# Raw food and Campylobacter



## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi,

One of my pups (12 weeks) have been weaned on raw and kibble and he was doing just fine when we got him. And then one day i changed the brand of his raw mince, another day i gave him a knuckle bone and it all started from there. He has been having on and off diarrhea, multiple visits to the vet during the vet not knowing whats wrong which has been driving us crazy. Put him on antibiotics. And bland food (hills id) We thought he was getting better Then he started gettin lathergic and vomiting, Vet has finally sent some poop sample away and it turns out today my puppy has got Campylobacter ?!

Vet said we will switch him onto another type of antibiotic which will be specific to this sort of bacteria and ill go pick it up tomorrow. She said keep him on that for a week. Its nothing major and can be fixed as he is eating now and a bit better. 

I read online that dogs will get this bacteria from raw food?? Which worries me a lot because i believe in raw diet (well at least 50/50 kibble and raw) but now im so scared? I dont know if its related or if anyone of you has experienced this. 

Ive been careful with his raw mince (i mean freezig and thawing)

I dont know whether or how to feed him raw now. 

Any ideas will be helpful.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I had never heard of this diesease so looked it up, it csn be passed through raw chicken. With that being said, dogs can eat a lot of things humans cant raw without getting sick, but what may be hurting your pup is feeding raw and kibble, it slows down the digestion of raw and causes bacteria to sit in the gut longer.

If I were you, I'd choose one or the other, either raw chicken OR kibble. Don't feed both.


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## 9mmmac (Dec 28, 2015)

I agree that the mixing may be causing problems. Why are you feeding raw? It may go against your philosophy, but there ARE good kibbles out there, and a zillion dogs have lived long, healthy lives on it. 

I'm a raw feeder myself, and it's expensive (kinda), and a lot of work- dressing out and packaging bulk, as well as rotating frozen meat for thawing every day or two. Also, I sanitize my countertops and utensils after every big processing batch, and sterilize the dogs bowls after every feeding. I think that's the biggest time and energy drain.

Make sure you're completely cleaning everything between feedings- hands, bowls, knives, countertops; whatever. Can you switch meat suppliers or go to a different protein? 

Also, it's completely possible you're doing everything correctly, and your dog picked it up from outside. Does he trot along sniffing for nom-noms in the grass or sidewalk? Drink from puddles? Are there other dogs around the can be crossing paths with?


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Thing is hes always been on both kibble and raw when he was still with the breeder and not had a problem. So i dont understand what would have happened herr to give him that? He does eat everything he sees (until i stop him and get it out if his mouth)

There are many people who feed 50/50 for various reasons and never heard this happening. Can we be just unlucky?

Also i thought when we freeze the raw food it gets rid of the bacteria?


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I am not a health professional, or a doctor, so any information I have has just been from researching on the internet.

It does appear that Campylobacter will die in freezing temperatures, so if you are freezing the meat for several days before feeding it, it does seem as if it would die off. 
However, you could had just gotten an unlucky batch from your supplier. I would contact them directly and see if any of their other customers have had problems.
You may want to keep him off chicken for a while, since that is the way this disease is spread is through chicken, so maybe switch your protein source? Just watch out what else is common in different protein sources, sorry, I am from the USA and don't know what diseases affect UK livestock very well.

I hope your puppy gets better, is it the older or younger one who is sick? The other one is fine though? Are they both being fed the same?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How long ago did he have the knuckle bone?


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

It is the older one. Younger one had a parasite and he too had diarrhea but hes better noe and back to his raw + kibble although i do think that maybe ill selerate the kibble and raw meals. Thank you for your nice wishes i too hope that he gets better. They are (used to) feeding the same yes. If it is just the chicken i might try turkey and duck maybe didnt read anything about those. But he has been on frozen and thawed chicken mince. Not even chicken bits. 

Not many people seem to know this bacteria. Our cet said if hes fine after this new set of antibiotis we should just get back to whatever we were feeding him. Im overly nervous and paranoid about my fury babies and the more i worry the more problems they keep getting


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

llombardo said:


> How long ago did he have the knuckle bone?


The first diarrhea episode started two days (hope im
Not wrong) after the knuckle bone. I thawed the knuckle bone on the counter and then gave it to him (i usually thaw in the fridge but this one i just thawed on the counter


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> The first diarrhea episode started two days (hope im
> Not wrong) after the knuckle bone. I thawed the knuckle bone on the counter and then gave it to him (i usually thaw in the fridge but this one i just thawed on the counter


How many days ago?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How much of the bone did he have? Is it possible he broke a piece off and got a blockage? He is showing all the signs of a blockage. Vomiting, lethargy, loose poop--all signs. Did he have xrays? Did he get into anything else?

How long has this been going on?


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

No theres no way he got a piece of a bone. It was ten days ago. They didnt do xrays as he kept responding to different antibiotics. Starting eating well again being active and pooing normal but as each antibiotic ended he got the runs again. Now they have done the poop test and they said it is the bacteria and starting new antibiotics


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I thought the same thing with my youngest and he indeed did get a piece of bone. I took him in immediately when the poop started and caught it early. They kept him there while I was at work for two days to observe and he passed it on his own. No more of any bones unless they are edible. 

There is no way he got into anything else, even outside? Has he had blood work done?


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Theybwere going to do blood tests and xrays if his poop didnt respond to antibiotics and now that they found that bacteria in the poop they arent doing a blood test. Whatever he tries to get in his mouth i get it out immediateley but i dont know


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dogs can get sick from food borne illnesses. It happens. I still feed raw though. Actually I feed a half raw half kibble diet and have been doing so ever since my GSD came home at 7 1/2 weeks old.

Campylobacter is incredibly common. For one of my microbiology course we all went to a random grocery store near campus and bought meat to test. Frozen and fresh. The _vast majority_ of samples had Sally Or Campy. We even found a few parasites. Fun times. 

It's not just chicken. Basically any meat you buy can and probably will have the organism on it. Especially minced/ground meats and poultry. You'll also find it on fruits and vegetables, eggs, in unpasturized dairy and in unchlorinated water. Oh it's also really commonly found in animal feces.

What antibiotics has he been on? Campylobacter has shown resistance to quinolones and tetracycline. I think fluoroquinolones are fairly common in veterinarian practices? If what you were prescribed ends with 'oxacin' be sure to discuss the possibility of antibiotic resistance with the vet if there isn't any improvement. Rebouts of diarrhea when tappering off antibiotics is also really common with Campylobacter infections.

Oh! There is also a zoonotic component as well! Your sick pup can pass this infection to your other dog and you. So break out the lysol and make sure everyone in the house is washing hands after handling the pup. Don't let the puppy lick your face etc. 

The pup has undergone a lot of stress in the last month of its life! Move from breeder to you = stress. Introducing new pup = stress. vet visit = stress. All that stress weakens the immune system, Plus we are talking about a baby that does not have a fully functional immune system anyways yet. So don't beat yourself up worrying if you did something wrong. 

Personally, if I have a dog that is on antibiotics, I stop raw for a bit. I also stop feeding kibble. I do a cooked diet. I can make sure it reaches bacteria killing temperatures that way. I cook small batches daily so it doesn't have much time to grow bugs. I do this because the antibiotics kill ALL gut flora bad and good. Good gut flora makes for an inhospitable place for the bad stuff. I don't want to risk introducing bad bacteria to my dogs system knowing I just killed off all the good stuff!!! I do the cooked diet during and for like a week after the antibiotics are stopped and I LOAD UP on the probiotics. 

I'd also be focusing on hydration I've found that free access to plain water isn't always enough. Dehydrated cells don't fight off infection well. I like to offer baited water or pedialyte frequently. 

And of course I do a lot of holistic supplements and diet. The toxins that Campylobacter creates causes a lot of inflammation. So I'd be focusing on a diet that has some anti inflammatory properties. A bit of ginger juice, or gelatin. Immune boosters too. 

Mako had some sort of stomach bug when he was around 16 weeks. He drank lots and lots of fluids - colostrum and bone broth mostly. Had a diet that consisted of canned pumpkin and ground turkey with gelatin mixed in for a few days. 

I do hope your pup starts feeling better soon!!!


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Sorry I do not have experience with this illness. But the whole "kibble digests slower than raw" thing is a myth. 
DIGEST THIS: Kibble May Actually Digest Faster Than Raw – The Raw Feeding Community


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Dogs can get sick from food borne illnesses. It happens. I still feed raw though. Actually I feed a half raw half kibble diet and have been doing so ever since my GSD came home at 7 1/2 weeks old.
> 
> Campylobacter is incredibly common. For one of my microbiology course we all went to a random grocery store near campus and bought meat to test. Frozen and fresh. The _vast majority_ of samples had Sally Or Campy. We even found a few parasites. Fun times.
> 
> ...


Hi, love your reply. How old is your dog now. Can i pick your brains about the way you feed when my pup is a bit better. Because i really want raw and kibble together (maybe seperate meals) to dtart with they put him on metrodinazole (spelling?) he was ok then the last day of the pills hes gone bad again. Theh they put him on something starting with an N cant remember the name now. And in the meantime did the poop test. Hes okay now better poop LOADS of appetite for a chang but the vet called yesterday and said ges got campy and we will start another antibiotic for a week its called Cephacare , just collected it and giving him first one now. Hes having 1 a day. Ill read the rest if your reply now. Got excited and wanted to reply having someone that knows about the disease


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Cschmidt88 said:


> Sorry I do not have experience with this illness. But the whole "kibble digests slower than raw" thing is a myth.
> DIGEST THIS: Kibble May Actually Digest Faster Than Raw – The Raw Feeding Community


Oh i just rearranged my other pups meals in a way that he would get raw and kibble in different meals. If its a myth i dont have to do that then. Ill read it


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Dogs can get sick from food borne illnesses. It happens. I still feed raw though. Actually I feed a half raw half kibble diet and have been doing so ever since my GSD came home at 7 1/2 weeks old.
> 
> Campylobacter is incredibly common. For one of my microbiology course we all went to a random grocery store near campus and bought meat to test. Frozen and fresh. The _vast majority_ of samples had Sally Or Campy. We even found a few parasites. Fun times.
> 
> ...


Great, its a bit too late now about him licking my face. There has been a lot of kissing going on also it is not really possible to keep the pups away from each other for a week now 

Will i die, i think i have got it from my pup if licking would do it.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Dogs can get sick from food borne illnesses. It happens. I still feed raw though. Actually I feed a half raw half kibble diet and have been doing so ever since my GSD came home at 7 1/2 weeks old.
> 
> Campylobacter is incredibly common. For one of my microbiology course we all went to a random grocery store near campus and bought meat to test. Frozen and fresh. The _vast majority_ of samples had Sally Or Campy. We even found a few parasites. Fun times.
> 
> ...


He has been on chicken and rice and hills i/d and naturesmenu chicken and vegetables and rice wet food. I was thinking of reintoriducing raw after this other antibiotic has finished as well(next week) but of course i didnt know about antibiotic killing good and bad bacteria and that being the reason


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Great, its a bit too late now about him licking my face. There has been a lot of kissing going on also it is not really possible to keep the pups away from each other for a week now
> 
> Will i die, i think i have got it from my pup if licking would do it.


When you fed your puppy gelatin ground turkey and canned pumpkin - was it cooked ground turkey? How do you cook ground meat?

Also are you talking about gelatin that we can buy from supermarkets for our desserts?
How much of it would i need to use daily?

Also never heard of baited water or pedialyte. Can i ask how much i shoukd offer daily. Is it something i can fet from vet or human pharmacies. Sorry for bugging you but now that ive found you im digging for more info  thanks a lot!


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Dogs can get sick from food borne illnesses. It happens. I still feed raw though. Actually I feed a half raw half kibble diet and have been doing so ever since my GSD came home at 7 1/2 weeks old.
> 
> Campylobacter is incredibly common. For one of my microbiology course we all went to a random grocery store near campus and bought meat to test. Frozen and fresh. The _vast majority_ of samples had Sally Or Campy. We even found a few parasites. Fun times.
> 
> ...


Also, do you get powdered colostrum made for pets?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Also, do you get powdered colostrum made for pets?


You can find bovine colostrum at a health food store, or buy it online from nutritional supplement sites. It comes in powder form, to be mixed with a little water. Bovine colostrum is _great _for pets (but it's sold in the "people" part of the store). I also add a probiotic to it. I like to give it at the mid-point halfway between the antibiotic doses.


That was an AWESOME post by Voodoolamb -- really thoughtful advice.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Magwart said:


> You can find bovine colostrum at a health food store, or buy it online from nutritional supplement sites. It comes in powder form, to be mixed with a little water. Bovine colostrum is _great _for pets (but it's sold in the "people" part of the store). I also add a probiotic to it. I like to give it at the mid-point halfway between the antibiotic doses.
> 
> 
> That was an AWESOME post by Voodoolamb -- really thoughtful advice.


Thank you. Ill
Be looking for colostrum. How much do you think should be fed? My pup is 12 weeks old 12 kg


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Hi, love your reply. How old is your dog now. Can i pick your brains about the way you feed when my pup is a bit better. Because i really want raw and kibble together (maybe seperate meals) to dtart with they put him on metrodinazole (spelling?) he was ok then the last day of the pills hes gone bad again. Theh they put him on something starting with an N cant remember the name now. And in the meantime did the poop test. Hes okay now better poop LOADS of appetite for a chang but the vet called yesterday and said ges got campy and we will start another antibiotic for a week its called Cephacare , just collected it and giving him first one now. Hes having 1 a day. Ill read the rest if your reply now. Got excited and wanted to reply having someone that knows about the disease


My pup is 9 months old now. And sure! I usually do kibble with fresh additives in the morning and then raw meals the rest of the day. I always soak the kibble beforehand never feeding it dry. The brand I use is a non extruded air dried one too. 

Metronidazole? It's mostly for protozoans. Sounds like your doctor's first thought was that it was a giardia. If you happen to remember what the other one was let me know! I'm nosey like that. Wondering if it was a quinolone. I had to look up Cephacare. It looks like the active antibiotic in it is Cefalexin. That's kind of interesting. I wonder why that was the antibiotic of choice. In humans the go to would be azithromycin or erythromycin. I'm finding conflicting studies as to cefalexin's effectiveness. Might be a regional thing. I found one study that showed campylobacter resistance to cefalexin and then I broadened my search to non published medical studies and found a reference on a pet supply sales site that said it is sometimes used. Interesting. Perhaps because we are so late into the illness? Anywho. With that many drugs going through your boy in such a short amount of time - I'd definitely be on the look out for side effects from the meds themselves. Situations like this are primed to lead to something like leaky gut syndrome or candidiasis. I don't think I can stress enough the importance of probiotic supplementation after antibiotics..

On a side note this is why my doctor, dentist and vets hate me  



Joey-and-chandler said:


> Great, its a bit too late now about him licking my face. There has been a lot of kissing going on also it is not really possible to keep the pups away from each other for a week now
> 
> Will i die, i think i have got it from my pup if licking would do it.


Are you very young, elderly or immuno compromised? If not I'd bet my house, my 401k, and my car on that you have probably been infected with several times throughout your life with camy and didn't even know it. It is one of the most common causes of diarrhea in humans. Just keep the face licking to minimum and wash up after playing with the pup till it all blows over and you'll be fine.



Joey-and-chandler said:


> When you fed your puppy gelatin ground turkey and canned pumpkin - was it cooked ground turkey? How do you cook ground meat?
> 
> Also are you talking about gelatin that we can buy from supermarkets for our desserts?
> How much of it would i need to use daily?
> ...


I just boil it. Feed with broth and all. We are grain free here so my go to bland diet is canned pumpkin and turkey. Once the stools are back to normal I just cook their regular food sans bones for a bit. And yes the gelatin you buy at the store. Inflavored. I don't really measure I just dump on a heaping spoonfull and mix it in. I'm sure if you searched you could find a dosage guideline. 

Baited water is just flavored water. Think like a broth. I stay away from store bought and make some at home. Boil a few pieces of liver and let the water cool. I pretty much give as much as they want. Pedialyte is a brand name for those electrolyte solutions you give to kids when they are sick. The ones for infants are unflavored. I try to mix something yummy in with it - like the colostrum powder. Whenever I have a dog with really bad diarrhea. Especially young pups.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> My pup is 9 months old now. And sure! I usually do kibble with fresh additives in the morning and then raw meals the rest of the day. I always soak the kibble beforehand never feeding it dry. The brand I use is a non extruded air dried one too.
> 
> Metronidazole? It's mostly for protozoans. Sounds like your doctor's first thought was that it was a giardia. If you happen to remember what the other one was let me know! I'm nosey like that. Wondering if it was a quinolone. I had to look up Cephacare. It looks like the active antibiotic in it is Cefalexin. That's kind of interesting. I wonder why that was the antibiotic of choice. In humans the go to would be azithromycin or erythromycin. I'm finding conflicting studies as to cefalexin's effectiveness. Might be a regional thing. I found one study that showed campylobacter resistance to cefalexin and then I broadened my search to non published medical studies and found a reference on a pet supply sales site that said it is sometimes used. Interesting. Perhaps because we are so late into the illness? Anywho. With that many drugs going through your boy in such a short amount of time - I'd definitely be on the look out for side effects from the meds themselves. Situations like this are primed to lead to something like leaky gut syndrome or candidiasis. I don't think I can stress enough the importance of probiotic supplementation after antibiotics..
> 
> ...


Turns out i dont know how to quote the part i want in a reply and then reply to it and quote again &#55357;&#56883; So ill just try to remember and reply all together, what do you add as supplements in the morning?

A question about raw- my smaller pup is on mince (as raw) and kibbles, but guessing that is not balanced and complete although it says its got ground bone in it, i dont know how to make it complete other than adding salmon oil, an egg, maybe 10 grms of liver every other day, some mighty mixer (naturesmenu.co.uk) which is some oats and fruits so
Obviously we are not grainfree. 

Im not planning on keeping the raw diet like that im going to be doing the balanced muscle meat, raw meaty bone, organ meat. But ive got plenty of chicken mince with me and want to use those too. 

Re the antibiotic, i dont remember the name but bext time im at the vets ill be asking them. It was a red packaging with a warning "animal use only". 

I dont know why they have started the cephacare now but do you think his bacteria will show resistance to it? Vet said after using a week, if there are no more symptoms, we dont have to take Him back for a check up. So how will i know if the campy is not gone and will come back soon again?

As hes been on antibiotics i am giving him 2 tbsp of yoghurt everyday and sometimes kefir?

After you mentioning ginger i read some and will immediately start using ginger (hoping not to overdo it because im like that)
Also read about turmeric but i dont want to mix everything :/

I have salmon oil for dogs but my dogs are disgusted by it. Wont go near it. 

Tried to find colostrum here in the uk but even in petshops i cant find any. 

Youre great, thank you!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a worry --- 
"With that many drugs going through your boy in such a short amount of time - I'd definitely be on the look out for side effects from the meds themselves. Situations like this are primed to lead to something like leaky gut syndrome or candidiasis. I don't think I can stress enough the importance of probiotic supplementation after antibiotics.."

antibiotics are not selective and will destroy pathogens and necessary beneficial bacteria in one fell swope .
At that point the dog can't digest and can't absorb and so diarrhea will be chronic .

This is a very young dog . It is important to get him back on track so that he can attain his genetic potential.

I've been looking into colostrum for the last year and a half , poised to put it into use in supplements.
What I have learned is that not all colostrum is the same .
You want to know the time-line for collection.
Colostrum changes over rapidly into milk formation with dwindling immune-protective ability as the hours go by. 
Other concerns would be the immunological and nutritional value of the colostrum which can be highly variable depending on the herd (cow) health .
And, you want to ensure that artificial growth hormones such as rBST and somatotropin are not used in the dairy herds from which the colostrum is collected. 
As an example these hormones are not legal to use in Canada . They are allowed in the USA.
You want to make sure that the colostrum is sourced from brucellosis and tuberculosis free herds .

Reasons for organic farming !

Pup needs to repair his gut . Pup needs to establish a healthy balanced gut flora which may include 80% probiotic and 20% pathogens -- you will always have a ratio of the two.
Pup needs to digest his food so that it can be metabolized.
Bone broth is excellent . MSM is excellent. Whey is excellent .


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

carmspack said:


> this is a worry ---
> "With that many drugs going through your boy in such a short amount of time - I'd definitely be on the look out for side effects from the meds themselves. Situations like this are primed to lead to something like leaky gut syndrome or candidiasis. I don't think I can stress enough the importance of probiotic supplementation after antibiotics.."
> 
> antibiotics are not selective and will destroy pathogens and necessary beneficial bacteria in one fell swope .
> ...


Sorry what is msm, and are you talking about whey powders for human? I was just searching on probiotics and google says there are some probiotics that are great for dogs (purina forti flora?)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

are you in England?

MSM - is an organic sulfur (water soluble) -- Methyl sulfonyl methane
which is necessary for the production of glutathione "the master enzyme" .
It provides so many benefits - detoxification, reduces inflammation, eliminates parasites (giardia for one) , aides digestion, speeds tissue repair, is a key component of cartilage .....
Digestion requires a great deal of energy from the body . MSM has a tonic effect .
Good reference book is "The Miracle of MSM- by Dr's
(MD) Stanley Jacobs , Ron Lawrence (MD & PhD) and natural vet Martin Zucker (DVM).

Whey powders can be for humans -- organic goat or bovine whey -- grass fed , antibiotic free .
Provide full complement of amino acids including branched -chain amino acids .
Very easy to digest . Actually has a higher biological availability profile than eggs . 
Like colostrum , whey has immunoglobulins, which may inhibit the growth of a wide range of bacteria, fungi, yeast, and protozoa.
Good for your pup which may experience fungi and yeast due to the bombing of his system with repetitive treatments of antibiotics. 
Like MSM , whey has a high content of sulfur amino acids (cysteine) which contributes to glutathione production . 
Once again there is a wide range of quality of products out on the market. 

I am not a fan of forti-flora .
this is a very recent discussion on this product.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/614361-results-vs-ingredients-glamour.html


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what to know about rBST Monsanto urges FDA to stop ?misleading? rBST-free labeling


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Sorry what is msm, and are you talking about whey powders for human? I was just searching on probiotics and google says there are some probiotics that are great for dogs *(purina forti flora?)*


 Canine *Fortiflora by Purina *Ingredients: _*Animal digest*_, Enterococcus faecium, L-ascorbyl- 2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin E supplement, zinc proteinate, beta-Carotene, salt, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite. B-4582


Thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n-how-about-topic-byproducts.html#post7608026
Appendix - Dog Food Samples Used in CVM Pentobarbital Surveys and Analytical Results = “There appear to be associations between rendered or hydrolyzed ingredients and the presence of pentobarbital in dog food. The ingredients *Meat and Bone Meal* (MBM),* Beef and Bone Mea*l (BBM),* Animal Fat *(AF), and _*Animal Digest (AD)*_ are rendered or hydrolyzed *from animal sources that could include euthanized animals*”. 
Farm animals, Zoo's, Shelters?????

I have never seen this "Appendix" recanted. 


Whey & MSM are 2 of the ingredients in "Sunday Sundae": Contains Digestive Enzymes (assimilates food) & Probiotics (puts the "good" bacteria in the gut) http://store.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/Sunday-Sundae-12oz.html 


 Organic Red Raspberry
 Apple fiber
 Organic coconut flour
 Apple pectin
 Sweet Red Beet powder
 Burdock Powder
 Wheat grass powder
 MEEKER red raspberry seed flour
 14 strain digestive enzyme blend
 11 strain probiotic blend
 Goat protein powder (protein / probiotics)
* Goat whey powder (source electrolytes, minerals and digestive enzymes)*
 Bee pollen powder
 Acerola powder
 Rosehip powder
 Cranberry powder
 Carrot powde
 *MSM*
 Marshmallow Root powder
 Slippery Elm powder
 Cinnamon Powder
 Amla powder (Indian gooseberry)
 Bromelin powder and Papain powder


Moms


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I have been reading this thread and the amount of valuable information given. One thing about store bought gelatin (at least in the states is that some brands are made with animal colligen some made with plant based material. 

This is info that I remembered from reading another thread and was just concerned whether or not the gelatin ingredients matter for your dogs issues. 

There is a wealth of knowledgeable people responding to help you so maybe they can respond to verify if what I'm saying is correct and if it matters.

I just saw a small detail. I really hope your pup gets better.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

carmspack said:


> are you in England?
> 
> MSM - is an organic sulfur (water soluble) -- Methyl sulfonyl methane
> which is necessary for the production of glutathione "the master enzyme" .
> ...


Ive been learning so much thanks to you guys but im a bit scared if over doing it ive learnt ginger and will give it every other day, learnt colostrum but cant find it so will try whey. Eggs and yoghurt. Theres salmon oil im adding everyday. Theres gelatin i read about. Now msm. Can i just use these all daily not do any harm trying to do good?

Yes im in england. Any msm or whey brands you could recommend and how much to give?

I dont know maybe if im using these i might not need to give eggs and yoghurt.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Here are 2 quality products that ship internationally from I-Herb that you may want to consider if you are giving supplements separately.

Well Wisdom Non-Dentured *Whey*: Well Wisdom, ImmunoPro, The Finest Biologically Active Non-Denatured Whey Protein, Natural, 10.6 oz (300 g) - iHerb.com
"The milk for this product is derived from cows that are grass-fed and graze year-round on natural pastures. Our whey does not contain genetically engineered materials. It is minimally processed to best maintain the full range of fragile immune-modulating and regenerative components naturally present in fresh raw milk." From Well Wisdom site: "The milking cows are disease free, pesticide free, chemical free, bovine growth hormone treatment free, and GMO free."

*MSM* by Bluebonnet is a high quality/certified form of msm:
Bluebonnet Nutrition, MSM Powder, 8 oz (226 g) - iHerb.com  "Bluebonnet's MSM Powder provides pure patented *OptiMSM* (they obtain their msm from Bergstrom-see below) methylsulfonylmethane, a non-toxic form of active sulfur. Bluebonnet's MSM Powder is all natural and tested in our own state-of-the-art laboratory for purity and potency. Available in easy-to-mix powder for maximum assimilation and absorption."

*Bergstom Company Certifications: *http://www.bergstromnutrition.com/our-company/certifications 
"In addition to our facility certification, our premium branded product, OptiMSM®, is certified both Kosher and Halal, and is the only GRAS-designated MSM on the market. GRAS means “Generally Recognized As Safe” and is the designation given to substances considered safe for direct or indirect additives to foods. The procedure for receiving GRAS designated status is lengthy, and not common in the supplement and functional ingredient market. OptiMSM’s GRAS designation indicates that Bergstrom Nutrition has performed all the necessary research and due diligence. The product has met all criteria required by the Food & Drug Administration and received the FDA’s Letter of Non-Objection, signifying there are no further challenges to the product's GRAS status."


Listed are the only companies that Bergstrom sells to: Bergstrom Nutrition - OptiMSM® Retail Partners 



Moms


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Here are 2 quality products that ship internationally from I-Herb that you may want to consider if you are giving supplements separately.
> 
> Well Wisdom Non-Dentured *Whey*: Well Wisdom, ImmunoPro, The Finest Biologically Active Non-Denatured Whey Protein, Natural, 10.6 oz (300 g) - iHerb.com
> "The milk for this product is derived from cows that are grass-fed and graze year-round on natural pastures. Our whey does not contain genetically engineered materials. It is minimally processed to best maintain the full range of fragile immune-modulating and regenerative components naturally present in fresh raw milk." From Well Wisdom site: "The milking cows are disease free, pesticide free, chemical free, bovine growth hormone treatment free, and GMO free."
> ...


Thank you, im checking them out, if cant find
Locally ill get these how much would i feed them? I think it would have instructions for human but i dont know for puppies. And do you think i would be over doing it if i was to give whey, msm, salmon oil, vit e, yogurt, egg, ginger


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Below are 3 ways to convert human dosage to dog dosages that I've used over the years:

(from Pet Grub) to convert a human product for a pet:
"I base the weight on a human being 100 pounds in weight. 
So a pet that is..."


100 pounds or more gets the full human dose
90 to 100 pounds get 90% of the human dose
80 to 90 pounds get 80% of the human dose
70 to 80 pounds get 70% of the human dose
60 to 70 pounds get 60% of the human dose
50 to 60 pounds get 50% of the human dose
40 to 50 pounds get 40% of the human dose
30 to 40 pounds get 30% of the human dose
20 to 30 pounds get 20% of the human dose
10 to 20 pounds get 10% of the human dose"
OR

"Based on a human of 125 pounds:
Divide your dog’s weight by 125. For example: 40/125 = .32. Multiply the recommended dosage by this number: For example: 3 tablets, twice per day. 3 X .32 = .96.
Rounding the final number a bit, the dosage of this supplement for a 40 lb. dog would be 1 tablet, 2x per day."

OR

"Another way to convert the dosage for your dog is to take your dog's weight, consider it a percent, and multiply the recommended dosage by that percent. For example, if your dog weighs 20 pounds then you would give your dog 20 percent of the recommended human dosage. If your dog weighs 75 pounds they would receive 75 percent of the dosage."



Your dog should be fine with the additions you mentioned: whey, msm, salmon oil, vit e, yogurt, egg, ginger

I feed eggs only 4 times per week.

What are you using the Ginger for?

Just be sure that you only introduce *ONE* item or food at a time for a few days and watch the stool. If stool gets loose, back off to previous dose and hold there for a few days. This is called bowel tolerance.

Moms


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I can vouch for *OptiMSM* 
this is what I use in the supplements.
Made in USA --- very hard to find , when 
almost all others are from China.
Quadrupple filtered -- recommended in the book
The MSM Miracle by Stan Jacobs and DVM holistic Dr Marty Zucker.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Below are 3 ways to convert human dosage to dog dosages that I've used over the years:
> 
> (from Pet Grub) to convert a human product for a pet:
> "I base the weight on a human being 100 pounds in weight.
> ...


That is interesting. I sure will be using this! Thanks a lot. Ginger has been recommended on this thread and i did a little research turns out ginger is really good for our pets (for bloating, immune system and couple more things)


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Hi we are back. My puppys just finished his antibiotics. His appetitie and mood are fine. Its just when he poops, its not completely solid. He poops a solid log and then rest is soft poop. Not runny but cant pick it up, need to scoop. 

I dont know what to do and i deffinitely dont want the vet to put him on antibiotics again. Im giving him kefir and pumpkin daily. 

I read that colostrum is no good unless the dogs got leaky gut. - does it mean he will deffinitely get this leaky gut cause hes been on antibiotics? 

Ill try to get msm but im losing hope and getting scared


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Joey-and-chandler said:


> Hi we are back. My puppys just finished his antibiotics. His appetitie and mood are fine. Its just when he poops, its not completely solid. He poops a solid log and then rest is soft poop. Not runny but cant pick it up, need to scoop.
> 
> I dont know what to do and i deffinitely dont want the vet to put him on antibiotics again. Im giving him kefir and pumpkin daily.
> 
> ...



Has he been tested specifically for Giardia?


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Just offering my own experience with antibiotics and runny poop especially the firm at the beginning soft at the end. My dog did this every time he was just getting off antibiotics even though I supplemented with pumpkin etc.

I found with my dog that it takes a few days or so for the gut to balance itself out.

Just wanted to help with your worrying while you are researching and taking more knowledgeable advise from others.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Yep. Same experience here with soft stool after antibiotics. It's a sign the good gut flora took a beating. I personally wouldn't worry too much unless it goes back to watery or the pup's behavior changed.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

llombardo said:


> Has he been tested specifically for Giardia?


Vet said he has been tested for that


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

Heartandsoul said:


> Just offering my own experience with antibiotics and runny poop especially the firm at the beginning soft at the end. My dog did this every time he was just getting off antibiotics even though I supplemented with pumpkin etc.
> 
> I found with my dog that it takes a few days or so for the gut to balance itself out.
> 
> Just wanted to help with your worrying while you are researching and taking more knowledgeable advise from others.


Hello, thank you maybe that. Hope it's like that.


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## Joey-and-chandler (Jan 16, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Yep. Same experience here with soft stool after antibiotics. It's a sign the good gut flora took a beating. I personally wouldn't worry too much unless it goes back to watery or the pup's behavior changed.


Thank you. I'll just wait a bit and see.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Momto2GSDs said:


> What are you using the Ginger for?


I don't want to contradict you, but supplements are based on 150lb human as average.

The average supplement conversion for GSD dog from human would be 50 -75% of human dose.

OP, As for the ginger...good call
Investigations into the antiadhesive activity of herbal extracts against Campylobacter jejuni. - PubMed - NCBI


*Investigations into the antiadhesive activity of herbal extracts against Campylobacter jejuni.*

Campylobacter jejuni is one of the most common bacterial causes of diarrhoea in the industrialized world, being associated with the occurrence of Guillain-Barré Syndrome, and inducing diseases partially through intestinal adherence. With increasing reports of C. jejuni drug resistance against standard antibiotics, investigations into antiadhesive agents for the prevention of bacterial infection are highly significant. Given the consumer-driven development towards holistic and integrative healthcare, research into additional anti-Campylobacter effects of herbal medicines that are already used for their beneficial effects on bowel and digestive functions is important. *Twenty-one herbal extracts were screened for antiadhesive activity against C. jejuni using modifications of previously published antiadhesion assays*. Antiadhesion effects with IC(50) values <3 mg/mL were obtained for seven ethanol plant extracts, *with Zingiber officinale (ginger), Capsicum annum (cayenne) and Glycyrrhiza glabra (licorice) displaying the highest antiadhesion activity against C. jejuni *(IC(50) : <0.1 mg/mL, 0.29 mg/mL and 0.65 mg/mL, respectively). Differences in antiadhesion activity were found for two different Echinacea species, with E. purpurea displaying significantly higher and dose dependent antiadhesion activity than E. angustifolia. No significant antiadhesion activity (IC(50) values >35 mg/mL) was found for Agrimonia eupatoria (agrimony), Andrographis paniculata (andrographis), Matricaria recutita (chamomile), Foeniculum vulgare (fennel), Filipendula ulmaria (meadowsweet) and Artemisia absinthium (wormwood) extracts. This study provides evidence for additional beneficial effects of marketed herbal medicines in gastrointestinal disorders.


Plus ginger increases lipase (fat assimilation) and is anti-inflammatory....


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