# Is there a "cure" for high prey drive?



## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

My male GSD turns 3 in 30 days. I got him when he was 8 months old.

He started herding the beef cows at my place when he turned 9 months. Not chasing - herding. It was cute at first, but herding pregnant cows through snow up to their shoulders (the cow's shoulders) is not cute. Herding the little calves is entertaining for him, but it could make the mother very angry. The cows can also break a leg if they slip and fall. He will not come out of the barn yard when called and he'll stay there for over 1/2 hour unless I go in to get him and even then I sometimes I have drag him out. I'm also putting my life at risk going into a barn yard with a bull and cows with calves. He will NOT stay out of the barn yard. He's obsessed with herding.

Jumping out of parked car windows that are only rolled down 3/4 way to chase a cat is not cute.

Chasing cars out of the driveway and then running down the road after the vehicle is not cute.

In the house, if the cats stay still, they are fine. As soon as there is any movement, the chase is on and I'm afraid he'll wrap his jaws around my cat. The cats have always gotten away so far.

At agility classes last night, as soon as the other dogs would run to jump over the jumps, he'd want to chase them. That's when he got kicked out of class.

Aside from a shock collar, is there anything that can be done?


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

What have you been doing the last 2+ years to correct him?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a very high prey drive game dog (non GSD). DAILY we work on focus. DAILY we work on 'Leave It!" DAILY we work on 'Look!'. 100% of the time it has to be a game to him. I use his drive to train him.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Do you have a prong collar? Redirect the prey drive to what is ok to chase. Fiona's is redirected with a flirt pole. We play about 2x a day. She leaves the chickens alone. Squirrels on the other hand are always chased. 

Unfortunately, he is having fun doing it, so he won't stop on his own. He should never be out there alone. When out there with you on a leash and a prong collar.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

As far as I know there is no cure. It is a constant training battle. 

Shortly before he passed at 13 a little dog crawled under our fence into our yard and Buddy at 13 went after him. Luckily my husband was home and got control of Bud quickly. The little dog bit my husband and took off so we don't know what happened to him if he was injured or not, but no small fuzzies were ever safe around my guy unless he was leashed.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Redirecting prey drive shouldn't be any sort of battle, and I would never want to "cure" it, it has way too many benefits as far as training.

What games have you done with him to allow him an outlet for his prey drive?

Once you have provided that, then you can work on teaching him (like Lilley said) that there is a time or place for his prey drive needs to be met, and none of them center around your livestock/Cats.

note: Prey drive and herding are not the same thing.

If you don't provide him with a safe, efficient outlet for his natural drives, it is unreasonable to expect him to not to use them, IMO. 

Flirt pole, tug/bite work etc are all good outlets for this dog. If you have an IPO club near you, they can show you how. If you have no interest in IPO, that's fine, just ask them to show you how to properly release those drives, teach impulse control and drive capping. They may not be able to do that as part of their regular meets, so be prepared to pay for private lessons.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

vom Eisenherz said:


> What have you been doing the last 2+ years to correct him?


Trying to convince him that I'm his "Pack Leader" and not his "Pack Mate".

I do believe that Prey Drive is a whole different level of training. Sure my dog is great in other situations, but not when something moves that has 4 legs. Prey Drive is not something that can be fixed with treat or even praise rewards - at least not very easily.

One time, when he was in the barn yard a couple of months ago, I took a big piece of raw meat out there and threw it into the barn yard. Ask me if he was interested in eating it. Nope! He had no interest in it. He was "working" and not interested in listening to me or eating a big juicy piece of raw meat.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Spacenuts, it sounds like you've allowed way too much. Yes, he needs an outlet, but if he's got a lot of drive and not a lot of focus on you or no respect for you, it doesn't matter how much of an outlet you give him; he still will do as he pleases. He needs to understand both positive and negative consequences of his actions. 

For starters, make sure you're not giving any commands that you're not in a position to enforce. This is paramount. If you're on the sidelines yelling commands, you're essentially teaching him that he can do whatever he wants. Long line with prong collar until he is listening to you 100%, not just when it's convenient.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

Cheyanna said:


> Do you have a prong collar?


You bet I do. I went to basic obedience classes with him at 10 months of age, the trainer specializes in GSD's, and the first thing she did was put a prong collar on him. What a difference! But he's very collar wise so as soon as I take it off, his angelic halo disappears.

I've hardly used it in the past year or more, but I'm going to have to go back to using it.

BTW, my dog is NEVER left unattended outside on the loose. I've dropped the leash with him out in the field thinking I'm far enough away from the barn yard, but that doesn't matter.....he'll all of a sudden take off and go there. Obviously I can't run fast enough to catch up and he won't listen to me in drive mode.

The other day I had him in "sit" on the lawn while my dad was coming up the driveway in his truck. Then all of a sudden he lunged and took off to chase him while I had the leash in my hands. The burn marks on my hands killed for over an hour. After this incident, it made me very frustrated because one day someone's going to get seriously injured (me or him).


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

For the record, I am not suggesting that your dog is balanced and doesn't have any genetic predisposition to the problematic behaviors you mention. I don't know that; I'm just suggesting what I would start with to get him under control and go from there, ie, I'm trying to help you keep the dog without anyone getting hurt. Stories like this are why balance and biddability are so important in breeding.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

spacenuts said:


> The other day I had him in "sit" on the lawn while my dad was coming up the driveway in his truck. Then all of a sudden he lunged and took off to chase him while I had the leash in my hands. The burn marks on my hands killed for over an hour. After this incident, it made me very frustrated because one day someone's going to get seriously injured (me or him).


This is a great example. You need to not allow him to reach that level. Allowing him to 'sit' while there is a source causing a reaction in him, is like taking a can of coke and shaking it up, then setting it down expecting it not to explode when you open it. Move him. Use that energy that is building in him to work him and focus on something else. 

Exercise the dickens out of him. Make him use his mind as well. My dog can run an aged track and be just as tired afterwards as he would if we ran a couple of miles. 

When you are in the house, teach him silly parlor tricks. That will make him focus on you. Use high value treats at first. NILIF 100% of the time. 

Use a key word. I use "look". When I say "Look" I can break the focus on a source (cat, squirrel etc.) and bring it to me. That gives me the moment or two to stop the action (break and chase). TIMING! If he's already zoned out, I do not ask him to 'look' or 'come' etc. I don't ask anything of him. I get up and get him. It's my job to catch him before he zones. It's in the first few seconds of focus. 

It can be done. You just have to work every single day. I suspect I'll work this way for the rest of his life. But he is a jam up dog now. And rocks at what he does. He'll give me 100% every single time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sent you a PM


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

N Smith said:


> What games have you done with him to allow him an outlet for his prey drive?


"Games" with him are always one-sided. Playing fetch consists of me throwing the toy and then he won't give it back to me. I literally have to pry his mouth open with both of my hands to get it back from him. He doesn't bite me and will sit for me to throw it again. This "game" lasts for a few minutes and then he wants to go back to the barn yard again.

He loves tracking. He's very excited about that and obviously has the drive for it. I'll use anything from kibble to raw tripe. I'll start that again now that all the snow is gone.

Tug - if you mean using those big knotted ropes with the tennis ball on the end, he loves keeping that in his mouth while I walk/run with it in my hand from the opposite end. I never allow him to get it from me and run off with it. I think the longest we've done that is 20 minutes and eventually he let go. Not sure if that's how you are supposed to do that.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Spacenuts, it sounds like you've allowed way too much. Yes, he needs an outlet, but if he's got a lot of drive and not a lot of focus on you or no respect for you, it doesn't matter how much of an outlet you give him; he still will do as he pleases. He needs to understand both positive and negative consequences of his actions.
> 
> For starters, make sure you're not giving any commands that you're not in a position to enforce. This is paramount. If you're on the sidelines yelling commands, you're essentially teaching him that he can do whatever he wants. Long line with prong collar until he is listening to you 100%, not just when it's convenient.


Completely agree with all of this.

I know I'm not supposed to give him commands when they can't be enforced, but I have severely broken that rule recently out of complete fear and frustration during his barn yard drama.

I've actually never heard of the "flirt pole" until now. I will look into that.

As far as IPO goes, I googled it (didn't know what that was either), but it sounds like it's the same as Schutzhund training. Anyhow, would LOVE to do that but obviously he'd be way to out of control in a class setting.

P.S. I don't think this drama has anything to do with breeding. He is just a highly dominating shepherd (typical) and does not respect me (in alot, but not all, situations). His previous owners let him rule the roost and I apparently haven't done much better.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

Lilie said:


> Exercise the dickens out of him. Make him use his mind as well. My dog can run an aged track and be just as tired afterwards as he would if we ran a couple of miles.


Exercise is an issue. A 60 minute walk through the fields is nothing for him. It's good, but not good enough.

However, one day in the winter when the coyotes were obviously out during the night b/c there were tracks everywhere throughout 2 of the big fields, I took him out when I got home from work and his nose was down to the ground for an entire 45 minutes sniffing those coyote tracks. Man! Was he pooped that night! I couldn't believe how tired he was and it was all thanks to the coyotes.

Back to exercise - 1 hour or more at the dog park is what really does the trick. It's exercise, but more excitement than anything. It makes him so tired! But the nearest one is 45 minutes away so I can't go on a regular basis. Also, some people bring their un-neutered or un-spayed dogs (which they are not supposed to) and that's a real issue. Not so much the dogs, but the owners have a hairy canary with my dog's pestering tactics. 

I've rollerbladed with him tied to my waist (don't flip out on me). He's not thrilled about it because (I believe) I'm the one in control of him - he's not in control of me. Squirrels are everywhere but he doesn't go nuts after them I guess because he's busy keeping up to me? Different environment = different behaviour.

Having said all that, I think it's pathetic that I live on a 100 acre farm in the country and can't let my dog off a leash (at best a 50 foot leash for some level of freedom) and I have to drive him around to dog parks and new environments to keep him intrigued. I honestly think I would be much better off moving to a town or city that had a dog park and a bunch of dog clubs/training classes readily available.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

I think the main thing is to strengthen his obedience and recall, so that if he does decide to dash off to chase animals, you at least have a solid recall. I think it would be great if you can start with the e-collar too to assist with that.

At last resort, you would have to crate him.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

I have an extremely high prey drive dog, there is no "cure". Her sister went to a home where they did very heavy suppression of the drive and when she went out to get evaluated for work at a year, there was a lot of conflict but it was still in there. That is heart breaking for me to hear having her sister who is incredible. 

All that being said, play goes a long way. Tug toys, balls, etc. give the dog an outlet for that drive and then can easily be used for redirection. My female does agility, IPO, normal pet things. Her focus is always on me because she knows I have all the fun toys. Exercise isn't the whole answer. My dog could go all day and straight running is not going to allow me to keep her focus in stimulating environments. Her knowing that we play together and I have a "prey" item does. Dog parks and such keep the fun on things outside your relationship hence why I am not a fan of them.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I am no expert. As per a Schutzhund trainer, Simon, 15 months, has high prey drive. Even chases insects, cotton wood seeds in the air, etc. I am working on drop at a distance while moving away from me. (I walk him on a 30-foot lunge line.) I think obedience is the key--and that takes time and effort and a good trainer. I take private lessons.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

N Smith said:


> Redirecting prey drive shouldn't be any sort of battle, and I would never want to "cure" it, it has way too many benefits as far as training.


It is a constant lifelong battle if you have a "pet" home. There is no letting the kids take the dog for a walk by themselves, not when the dog can take off after a cat or a small fuzzy. There is no going to dog parks or places where there are other small animals about. The kids did 4-H training with the dogs and Buddy was quit the challenge for all of us. He got a lot of training more than most of our other dogs but that prey drive was always there. It never went away. It was just something you learn to manage and be vigilant about.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

shepherdmom;6827337[B said:


> It is a constant lifelong battle if you have a "pet" home. ........ *It never went away. It was just something you learn to manage and be vigilant about.*


So very, very true. My fragile sister can't walk either of the dogs, Orick with small prey and Jade with other dogs. But we manage well. They are both much-loved rescues, although each with a personality that would be a disaster for someone inexperienced with high drive GSDs. And, at 68, I don't think I will be looking for another after these two are gone. GSD maybe, but would have to be much more mellow than either of these two, as much as I do love them!

The sad thing is, I LIKE the difficult ones, just as I liked the difficult horses when I was training. I would like a GSD/Mal cross if my energy level were up there, but I know it isn't and won't be. 

Susan


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> It is a constant lifelong battle if you have a "pet" home. There is no letting the kids take the dog for a walk by themselves, not when the dog can take off after a cat or a small fuzzy.


I don't understand why it has to be a lifelong battle. Find a trainer who understands prey drive and how to use it for training. These dogs can be amazing. With the right trainer, prey drive can be a gift. 

Also look to Lou Castle and his crittering. Many have turned their dogs around using this method.


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## Pretzels (Aug 11, 2014)

I don't think there's a "cure" for prey drive, the drive will always be there, but you can teach self control, and find ways to channel that prey drive in a good and useful way. 

If your not completely against ecollars I'd recommend looking up Lou castles Ecollar training methods. Especially on his website, the section called "crittering". My pup has a high prey drive (not compared to yours, although, left unchecked I think it would've grown into more of a problem). He would not be totally trustworthy off leash when im in a farm environment (where we spend a few hours per day) or on our daily hikes for a lonnnng time. He LOVES and thrives on the off leash freedom he can enjoy because we have the collar as a safety net. 
He used to have absolutely no self control... He would see a squirrel, cat, or shadow (he likes to chase shadows as well) and he was after it without a split second of thought. Neither of us could enjoy ourselves half the time 
When I first tried a prong collar, (which before I was educated and actually felt it, I thought was an evil torture device) he learned that self control is actually a thing. It was so funny to see that light bulb go off in his (7 month old) head. Like he really had not realized there there was a decision to make when he spotted a chase able thing... He seemed relieved to know he was capable of looking to me instead and getting praise/feeling smart, and moving on with our walk, instead of going after the thing and causing frustration.

I got the Ecollar because he really seems to need off leash time, but with his "mischievous" personality, I think it would've been a long time (if ever) till I could trust him 100%. .... The initial training took a little while, because I had collar fit issues and because I wanted to keep the stim at low levels all through out training, so I had to work on building up his thresholds gradually...but now he really gets the concept of self control, seeing a living, scurrying thing, and thinking for a second about whether or not he's allowed to chase it.... (I do give him permission to run after birds/their shadows, bugs, or things I know he has no hope of catching when I'm in the right circumstance, and I see him looking to me for guidance)
I trained with the Ecollar for a while, so he really understood the concept of responding to the stim at low levels. Now it's only there as a safety net and I really focus on positive reinforcement and engagement. 
He loves chasing bugs and bird shadows or just birds in the sky lol! And I allow him to do this now that he asked for permission and can be recalled easily. So that's how he gets to channel his prey drive a little. I'm also always trying to channel it with toys... But he really doesn't care for them much... He likes the things that live and breathe. Haha

He really thrives and is much more mentally healthy when he has space and freedom... So much easier to exercise him when I can take him off leash for an hour or two and he gets to run around and sniff and mark up all the interesting trees and rocks lol. 

Also... I think herding drive is a little different than prey drive... Mine has a lot of "herding drive" as well and we're still really working on that, more so than the prey drive at this point. We're around cows and horses daily, and he's the worst with cows. But luckily they are fenced and he's just learned that he's not allowed to go under the fence now  I've found that playing "soccer" can be a good channel for that drive.... When he was a puppy, he would try to heard kids. 15 minutes of playing soccer per day completely fixed that! 


So those are just my random ramblings of my experiences with my pup! Im not an experienced trainer or anything.  i would very highly recommend reading the book, "Fired up, Frantic, and Freaked Out" and also "Control Unleashed" if you haven't read them. Both are extremely helpful and applicable, also fun, easy reads imo! (Neither haven of do with ecollars btw)


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Pretzels said:


> My pup has a high prey drive (not compared to yours, although, left unchecked I think it would've grown into more of a problem).


This exactly. How much of this dogs behaviour is crazy high prey drive vs. bad habits that were allowed to develop.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> I don't understand why it has to be a lifelong battle. Find a trainer who understands prey drive and how to use it for training. These dogs can be amazing. With the right trainer, prey drive can be a gift.


I don't get it. I really don't. How is spending hours training and working with a dog to try to convince him to not do something that comes naturally a gift?


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## Pretzels (Aug 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't get it. I really don't. How is spending hours training and working with a dog to try to convince him to not do something that comes naturally a gift?


I think the key is to not be trying to "extinguish" the prey drive. You can channel that energy in other ways, make training fun and mentally stimulating, give the dog acceptable outlets for this natural drive and energy such as using toys, flirt poles, working for treats... Keeping intense focus during training. Train in a way that creates a partnership with your dog, that's fun and mentally stimulating, that fulfills his need for leadership and an outlet for all that great mental and physical energy! Be a leader to your dog, and give him guidance as to WHEN and HOW he uses that prey drive. You'll always have to be aware of his drives, but it doesn't have to be a "battle" forever. Imo


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

shepherdmom- You're not trying to convince a dog with high drives not to do something, you're channeling those natural drives into something fun and rewarding with training. If you're willing to put on the effort and time figuring out how to do that, you end up with a really solid bond with your dog. You aren't battling against the dogs natual drives, you're giving the dog an outlet for those drives so that the dog knows when it's appropriate to exercise those drives. Both of my dogs have high prey drive, and it's been really fun to channel those drives into productive things with them.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Pretzels said:


> I think the key is to not be trying to "extinguish" the prey drive. You can channel that energy in other ways, make training fun and mentally stimulating, give the dog acceptable outlets for this natural drive and energy such as using toys, flirt poles, working for treats... Keeping intense focus during training. Train in a way that creates a partnership with your dog, that's fun and mentally stimulating, that fulfills his need for leadership and an outlet for all that great mental and physical energy! Be a leader to your dog, and give him guidance as to WHEN and HOW he uses that prey drive. You'll always have to be aware of his drives, but it doesn't have to be a "battle" forever. Imo


For example, get the dog riled up with a flirt toy, then give the command "drop" (the dog quickly downs), then start up the flirt toy while releasing the dog. The dog learns impulse control in a fun way.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Pretzels said:


> I think the key is to not be trying to "extinguish" the prey drive. You can channel that energy in other ways, make training fun and mentally stimulating, give the dog acceptable outlets for this natural drive and energy such as using toys, flirt poles, working for treats... Keeping intense focus during training. Train in a way that creates a partnership with your dog, that's fun and mentally stimulating, that fulfills his need for leadership and an outlet for all that great mental and physical energy! Be a leader to your dog, and give him guidance as to WHEN and HOW he uses that prey drive. You'll always have to be aware of his drives, but it doesn't have to be a "battle" forever. Imo


Again this was a pet dog. Not a working dog. He had 10 acres to run, he had 4 other big dogs and 2 kids (plus plenty of visiting kids) to play with. We trained him to leave our guinnea hens, peacocks and other birds alone, to not knock small kids down but he was always till the day he died a butthead when small darting furries were around. No amount of training or exercise on our part could ever get him to not kill a cat/small dog/or other small darting animal that got within his reach.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> It is a constant lifelong battle if you have a "pet" home. There is no letting the kids take the dog for a walk by themselves, not when the dog can take off after a cat or a small fuzzy. There is no going to dog parks or places where there are other small animals about. The kids did 4-H training with the dogs and Buddy was quit the challenge for all of us. He got a lot of training more than most of our other dogs but that prey drive was always there. It never went away. It was just something you learn to manage and be vigilant about.


It's called proper training for the type of dog you as an owner choose to own. Children really shouldn't be walking big dogs alone regardless, and dog parks are just a bad idea in general...

Either way, that's like saying there's not a single husky owner or beagle owner that can walk their dog....

It sounds like what this dog lacks is simply good, solid training with an experienced trainer. Dogs with good prey drive can be some of the easiest dogs to train if that is directed towards the right reward. If a dog desires something (a tug, for example, built up on a flirt pole) then a dog can be highly rewarded with that prize, which builds motivation in the training. That's why such drivey dogs excel at sport competition. 

And yes, I get it, it's a "pet". There's no reason a "pet" can't be properly trained. That's just an excuse.

My trainer has malinois. Talk about prey drive. My trainer posts pictures on Facebook of their cats sleeping on top of their dogs. My trainer's malinois would also shred any neighborhood cat caught darting through their yard. It's all about proper training, proper control, proper containment.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I don't get it. I really don't. How is spending hours training and working with a dog to try to convince him to not do something that comes naturally a gift?


WHY would anyone own such an intelligent breed so motivated to work if they have no desire to train and stimulate their dog??? And no I'm not starting the whole "working breed" debate. I'm simply saying intelligent breeds need outlets! You'll run into the same problem with a husky or border collie! It's why Australian cattle dogs typically make such horrible pets.


"You mean, I actually have to work on lots of training with my german shepherd or he could end up being a bad dog?" Yes!!!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

How about going to a herding trainer to learn the basics of herding, getting some commands in place, and working to make those reliable so that you can use the herding instinct to key into his biddability? 

The other thing is management - if I have a dog that will jump out of windows, that dog doesn't go for a ride unless he's in a crate, or harnessed in. A lot of times dogs need to be managed as much as being trained. If I have a high drive to eat fudge, my best strategy is not to walk around a house that has plates of fudge everywhere, but to not purchase any of the ingredients to make the fudge in the first place. I'm not a bad person because of that, but it's much easier to manage my behavior rather than to try to constantly be holding that impulse in check because it is so strong. 

When someone is in the driveway, leash him when they leave and go in the opposite direction with a ball or something else of interest to distract him. 

Northeastern Instructors
Ha - great tagline - When Ordinary Humiliation Just Isn't Enough 
should help find a place where you can go herding 

More links: 

AHBA

http://www.mikatura.com/herdingresources.html

http://www.teecreek.com/ (will possibly come to you) 

The bigger black and tan dog in my avatar loved horses. His name was Kramer, and like the character on Seinfeld, he had a Kevorka, but with large animals and livestock - horses, cows, would all come up to see him at fences. When he was about 13 or 14 I thought it would be safe to pull along side a fence and put the window down part way so he could see the horses. Instead, he jumped out the window, went under the fence and trotted up to the 2 horses who were grazing. They just kept grazing and he stood with them - so happy - while I was freaking out and hoping the owners weren't home. So I know they can continually surprise, and I learned not to ever put the window down more than nose and eye for him to see horses!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> It's called proper training for the type of dog you as an owner choose to own. Children really shouldn't be walking big dogs alone regardless, and dog parks are just a bad idea in general...
> 
> It sounds like what this dog lacks is simply good, solid training with an experienced trainer.
> 
> ...





> WHY would anyone own such an intelligent breed so motivated to work if they have no desire to train and stimulate their dog??? And no I'm not starting the whole "working breed" debate. I'm simply saying intelligent breeds need outlets!


Here we go again. Can I not participate in any conversations without you attacking me and my pets ? Do you enjoy following me from thread to thread? Buddy was trained plenty. He had blue ribbons from 4-H obedience. That is enough training for me and most. Some people have lives outside of the dog world. That doesn't make us bad owners. Why would anyone want to spend their whole life training a dog? Classes once or twice a week is plenty and more than most dogs get. Just because I choose to have a happy/balanced/full life with human family and friends (and yes kids who enjoyed walking the dogs) doesn't make me a bad dog owner. Someday you will grow up and realize there are other things in life besides your obsession.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> It sounds like what this dog lacks is simply good, solid training with an experienced trainer.


Agreed, but here's the thing:

I grew up with a GSD. NO ONE walked the dog. NO ONE played with the dog. And certainly NO ONE trained her. She was just there, being a farm dog. 

Collar or leash? Ya right! That was for people that lived in town (if that). I lived on a 100 acre farm with the house being very close to a very busy highway. She NEVER went close to the road. 

My mom bought dog food from the grocery store or co-op. This was back in the 80's so think Purina. And lots of times she got table scraps for dinner and she also killed and ate groundhogs. 

Oh, and being a farm, there were cats - inside and out. She didn't kill them or even chase them. Remember, NO training.

If the dog did anything "wrong", my parents just yelled at her and that was that. No tugging on a collar, prong collar, e collar. No crate. No toys. No treats. And certainly no dog training classes that didn't exist for regular people.

I tried raising my dog that same way (except I do walk him and do play with him). Terrible results. 

So what's with dogs these days? Why do they need "experienced" owners when they didn't need them 30 years ago?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

The dog your describing was probably your typical low drive byb bred GSD look alike. High stimulation thresholds, handler sensitive and relatively low energy. 
Easiest way to duplicate this is go to your local shelter or kijiji, find such a dog and your set as long as there arent any major health issues.

The key with dealing with a high drive (more likely medium in this case) is teaching the dog to achieve drive satisfaction through control. Give the dog plenty of chase and fight opportunities in tandem with stimulation control and obedience behaviors.

As complicated as it sounds its actually quite easy. Unless you have a freak of nature (judging by your avatar very unlikely) this does not require hours of training. Nor does it require hours of exercise. Short sessions of obedience intermingled with prey rewards can exhaust a dog in as little as 10 minutes. The mental stimulation and physical release proper training provides is unsurpassed even by hours of running around some field doing whatever he wants.
Nor does living with such dog require a lifetime of training. Its about establishing a solid foundation, creating compliance through the use of reward / pressure, and controlling access to resources toys/food. 
After this compliance becomes habitual and simply part of daily life for the dog.

The dog your describing has little control and conflict behaviors which are easily remedied. Not by petsmart training or even most self professed gsd experts.

If your in south western ontario and are serious about getting some proper training for him pm me.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The dog your describing was probably your typical low drive byb bred GSD look alike. High stimulation thresholds, handler sensitive and relatively low energy.
> Easiest way to duplicate this is go to your local shelter or kijiji, find such a dog and your set as long as there arent any major health issues.
> 
> The key with dealing with a high drive (more likely medium in this case) is teaching the dog to achieve drive satisfaction through control. Give the dog plenty of chase and fight opportunities in tandem with stimulation control and obedience behaviors.
> ...


We were working on Berlin's outs, 4 separate helpers with bite pillows and tugs, outting him and then releasing when a different helper caught his attention. Granted it was the first real warm day of the season, but it was fun for all and Berlin was tired in about 10 minutes lol.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

spacenuts said:


> Agreed, but here's the thing:
> 
> I grew up with a GSD. NO ONE walked the dog. NO ONE played with the dog. And certainly NO ONE trained her. She was just there, being a farm dog.
> 
> ...


Do you notice how dogs that kids (key word kids) grew up with always seem to be idolized as these perfect creatures? Now I never grew up with dogs so I have nothing to compare to, but seems to me a lot can be made to look perfect by childhood 

Dogs are all different too. Yes I did a lot with Zeke, but realistically he was a low drive, kind of lazy, BYB special. He was a PERFECT dog. Because he just did whatever you wanted and was more than content to lay there next to you. He would spend all day exploring my aunt's ranch, never once running off or getting it trouble. Despite the fact that he was never raised there or trained to be a ranch dog.

Berlin, higher drive working line? Yeah he is night and day different and is an amazing dog and a complete joy to own. But he requires a lot more work to manage. He's not that natural kind of perfect that Zeke was. I can't imagine what he would be if he was just thrown out somewhere with no work or training or stimulation.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I was an adult in the 80's with kids of my own. I had one of those perfect GSD's. No training required. Fed crap food. Never tried to eat a cat or a kid. Lived with both. I don't know what the heck happened? The wall fell and we started importing ? IDK. I don't like it whatever it is. I think that is why advertising "old fashioned" dogs work so well. Those are the dogs that people want.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

shepherdmom said:


> I was an adult in the 80's with kids of my own. I had one of those perfect GSD's. No training required. Fed crap food. Never tried to eat a cat or a kid. Lived with both. I don't know what the heck happened? The wall fell and we started importing ? IDK. I don't like it whatever it is. I think that is why advertising "old fashioned" dogs work so well. Those are the dogs that people want.


I agree with you. German Shepherds were always good family dogs.

Today, too many breeders are trying to satisfy the market for IPO dogs by breeding for extreme prey drive. Not everybody agrees with the wisdom of excessive prey, especially in real work venues.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I was an adult in the 80's with kids of my own. I had one of those perfect GSD's. No training required. Fed crap food. Never tried to eat a cat or a kid. Lived with both. I don't know what the heck happened? The wall fell and we started importing ? IDK. I don't like it whatever it is. I think that is why advertising "old fashioned" dogs work so well. Those are the dogs that people want.


Have no fear, these dogs are available in many of your local shelters or WGSL breeder. There is no lack of couch potato pets with pointy ears to be had. Even in working line colors now with all the "versatile" "working dog" breeders these days.

If you want work, actual work not pretend "he can do it if I had the time" or "his father was a K9" then you get some side effects that are easily handled with some common sense and basic knowledge.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Have no fear, these dogs are available in many of your local shelters or WGSL breeder. There is no lack of couch potato pets with pointy ears to be had. Even in working line colors now with all the "versatile" "working dog" breeders these days.
> 
> If you want work, actual work not pretend "he can do it if I had the time" or "his father was a K9" then you get some side effects that are easily handled with some common sense and basic knowledge.


 Lots of these dogs with both WL and SL breeders also. You just need to know where to look. :smirk:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The German Shepherd was never meant to be a prey monster.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Have no fear, these dogs are available in many of your local shelters or WGSL breeder. There is no lack of couch potato pets with pointy ears to be had. Even in working line colors now with all the "versatile" "working dog" breeders these days.
> 
> If you want work, actual work not pretend "he can do it if I had the time" or "his father was a K9" then you get some side effects that are easily handled with some common sense and basic knowledge.


The ones I see come through rescue are usually a mess. Not like the dogs of the 80's at all. Fear biting and other issues. I do have a WGSL who I got through rescue and I highly recommend to pet owners, but then you get the structural issue. 

I been thinking, I may try the berger blanc suissie next time. I haven't decided. I really prefer taking rescues but I might just break down and go to a breeder.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Weird, I knew plenty of people "back in the day" that had farm and ranch dogs, and the reason they had some really good adult dogs was because they had plenty of dead young dogs that got hit by cars or what not. Natural selection, it took the best to survive.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Short sessions of obedience intermingled with prey rewards can exhaust a dog in as little as 10 minutes. The mental stimulation and physical release proper training provides is unsurpassed even by hours of running around some field doing whatever he wants.


This is always music to my ears. I can never understand why I see on Kijiji or rescue shelter websites that they won't let the GSD go to a place other than a farm or has a very large property to run. I don't agree with that. I think a GSD could do quite well in a city with what you mentioned above.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> The wall fell and we started importing?


LOL. LOL. LOL. The other day I was just thinking of the 2 most biggest news events I remembered watching on TV as a youngster. 1. When the east and west started hacking down the Berlin wall. 2. When Ben Johnson got busted for using steroids to win his gold medal.

Anyhow, I went to 3 different pet stores yesterday and none of them knew what a flirt pole was. Guess Amazon will be getting the sale. I like the idea of the flirt pole - it would be great for a rainy day.

P.S. Love the idea of going to a herding trainer like someone else mentioned, but there isn't one near by unfortunately.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mattpayne said:


> Lots of these dogs with both WL and SL breeders also. You just need to know where to look. :smirk:


Thats what I said .

Memories of past dogs are often tinged with a golden halo. 

"The German Shepherd was never meant to be a prey monster. "

Most aren't, their drives are average. The lack of common sense in dog training today creates tigers out of ***** cats.

I have lived with multiple working dogs in a town house. They all co exist with cats or little dogs. They learn quick how things work regardless of their drive levels.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thats what I said .
> 
> Memories of past dogs are often tinged with a golden halo.
> 
> ...


This. My dogs have workable prey drive and it doesn't make them impossible animals to own or live with. Prey drive for IPO, yes, but they don't go chasing down every little object that moves just to catch it and kill it. I don't know very many dogs like that at all..


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> This. My dogs have workable prey drive and it doesn't make them impossible animals to own or live with. Prey drive for IPO, yes, but they don't go chasing down every little object that moves just to catch it and kill it. I don't know very many dogs like that at all..


I do, they're called northern breeds  haha


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I know a few experienced people that rehomed their dogs due to their inability to get along with family cats, sometimes the cats lost their lives.

I personally considered getting a workingline Mal and spoke with the best of the workingline breeders and was basically told they never met a workingline Mal that did not kill cats.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Wait for it...Im getting two adult male Malis shipped to me tomorrow. They wont be killing anything other then some sleeves... 

You know what they say about assumptions... 

Perhaps these breeders were concerned that an inexperienced handler asking them if their pups get along with cats would be unable to handle their dogs and just avoided the headache by saying something like that. 

Once again, common sense training, black and white, right and wrong. Its not that hard.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I have pictures of my trainer's cat sleeping on top of her mal. Who is apt to try to kill any 4 legged creature outside of the house, including their other mals


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Wait for it...Im getting two adult male Malis shipped to me tomorrow. They wont be killing anything other then some sleeves...
> 
> You know what they say about assumptions...
> 
> ...


Are you assuming your Mals won't be killing anything? You know what they say about assumptions. 

What makes you think (yet another assumption) that I am an inexperienced handler? What makes you think that I asked a Mal Breeder if their pups get along with cats (another assumption)? 

Black and white common sense training? No wiggle room? Definitely no common sense. 

Many experienced people with years under their belts disagree with you. 

No need for covert personal attacks because somebody does not value your viewpoints on extreme prey drive.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

spacenuts said:


> Aside from a shock collar, is there anything that can be done?


Yes, appropriate TRAINING with an Ecollar. You don't have a prey drive problem. You have a training problem. And the best solution is NOT TO try to find a way to suppress the drive.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I personally considered getting a workingline Mal and spoke with the best of the workingline breeders and was basically told they never met a workingline Mal that did not kill cats.


I'm not surprised that some breeders have made this statement. But the facts are that I've stopped many _"workingline Mal"_ from chasing or killing cats. It's just a matter of effective training.


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## Toots (May 6, 2015)

E-collar raining I think you need to work on a long line and work on recall and the Leave it command I know I can call my GSD off reliably even on a dead run because of E-collar training. Find a trainer experienced in e-collar training I have never turned my GSD's collar up enough to hurt her and as soon as I bring it out she gets excited because she knows were going training. Just my 2 cents there is right and wrong ways to train with it just like prong collars (witch I've never used on my GSD) and slip collars so fined a good trainer.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> Yes, appropriate TRAINING with an Ecollar. You don't have a prey drive problem. You have a training problem. And the best solution is NOT TO try to find a way to suppress the drive.


THANKS!! Really appreciate it. That would be cruel to an animal to suppress his drive.

I bought a Dogtra 1900NCP in 2013. Still haven't used it b/c I'm too afraid of making a mistake and then he'll become "collar wise". I will seek out appropriate training for this.

I'm glad there is hope for me and my dog.

Thanks to everyone that has replied with all their input and experiences. This has been truly helpful. I started making small changes earlier this week and have already seen small, but positive results.


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## Pretzels (Aug 11, 2014)

spacenuts said:


> THANKS!! Really appreciate it. That would be cruel to an animal to suppress his drive.
> 
> I bought a Dogtra 1900NCP in 2013. Still haven't used it b/c I'm too afraid of making a mistake and then he'll become "collar wise". I will seek out appropriate training for this.
> 
> ...


Off topic from the this thread but just thought I would mention if you do start up with the Ecollar... Id recommend getting the 3/4 inch contact points at least instead of the ones that come with it. If I did that in the beginning... The training would have gone MUCH more smoothly. My guy has a regular coat, not on the thick or long side for a GSD at all, and we had issues with the points making reliable contact. I didn't fully know if that was the issue until I finally tried the longer ones and then everything went so perfectly (I sometimes couldn't tell if he was ignoring it or just not feeling it, a little frustrating for both me and dog). Just thought I would mention that in case it would save you the trouble I went through. Lol  the Ecollar has been such an amazing tool for my pup using Lou castles methods.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> I'm not surprised that some breeders have made this statement. But the facts are that I've stopped many _"workingline Mal"_ from chasing or killing cats. It's just a matter of effective training.




Effective training or effective management?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you assuming your Mals won't be killing anything? You know what they say about assumptions.
> 
> *No I'm making a statement based on experience, as in I know how to read a dog and make what I want clear to him...bit of a difference ..
> Strange there's a new working line Mal here and all the little creatures in the house are still alive! Must be lucky . *
> ...


Im just spreading information to counteract the misinformation often stated on here as fact. I think of it as my little good deed for the day.

How many dogs of varying drive levels have you been training lately?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Are you assuming your Mals won't be killing anything? You know what they say about assumptions. 

No I'm making a statement based on experience, as in I know how to read a dog and make what I want clear to him...bit of a difference .. 
Strange there's a new working line Mal here and all the little creatures in the house are still alive! Must be lucky . 

*That's nice, I wonder why so many other people's experience is so different, especially when those people are breeding, training and placing their Mals with police departments?*

What makes you think (yet another assumption) that I am an inexperienced handler? What makes you think that I asked a Mal Breeder if their pups get along with cats (another assumption)? 

Because you said something silly about Mals that leads a logical person to assume you were talking to an idiot and or believed an idiotic statement.

*Did I say something silly about Mals or did I simply state what breeders of real workingline Mals expressed to me? Seems like you are saying something silly here.*

Black and white common sense training? No wiggle room? Definitely no common sense. 

Wiggle room is how you end up with inconsistent results and your cat getting killed. 

*Wiggle room is how you change your training method and use different tools for different dogs. One size does not fit all.
*

Many experienced people with years under their belts disagree with you. 
I'd love to hear from these paragons. . .since you speak for them tell me were I am wrong. Also while we're at it we can compare training. Just owning a few dogs for 30 years does not experience make.

*If you would love to hear from those breeders then call them like I did. I don't speak for anybody but myself and my experience which was, let me repeat it for you, that I considered getting a real workingline Mal and was advised by the top producers and trainers of these Mals that they never met a Mal that did not kill cats. Did you comprehend it this time?* 

No need for covert personal attacks because somebody does not value your viewpoints on extreme prey drive.



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im just spreading information to counteract the misinformation often stated on here as fact. I think of it as my little good deed for the day.
> 
> How many dogs of varying drive levels have you been training lately?


Actually, I am training two puppies right now. How about you?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LouCastle said:


> I'm not surprised that some breeders have made this statement. But the facts are that I've stopped many _"workingline Mal"_ from chasing or killing cats. It's just a matter of effective training.




With all due respect Lou, I am sure you have stopped many Mals from chasing and killing cats. I have a question for you. Once completed, does your crittering method work when the dog is not wearing a collar? Can you trust the dog loose at night in the house with cats or when you were not home? How about a cat on the dog's property when it is out alone, is your method fail proof? Would you trust your cat's lives to this method?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you assuming your Mals won't be killing anything? You know what they say about assumptions.
> 
> No I'm making a statement based on experience, as in I know how to read a dog and make what I want clear to him...bit of a difference ..
> Strange there's a new working line Mal here and all the little creatures in the house are still alive! Must be lucky .
> ...


 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGUMvjL7Zeo this just came off a plane today and was loose in the house..after killing some sleeves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOCX81L080M
This xmal with extreme prey spent his whole life in a kennel, came off a plane and was in my house..he is for the police..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIAptZyXIzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIAptZyXIzI
This wanted to chase the cat and bother the little dogs until she was taught otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UUYB7b-KmY When this gets here tomorrow, he wont be allowed to kill anything either.


Guess we arent going to agree, but thats ok.

No real point in going back and forth anymore. Generalizations and misinformation about prey drive and or Mals does nothing to help anyone. Most cases of animal chasing are training and consistency issues.


Black and white no grey.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Yep, misinformation about prey drive and Mals won't help anybody, any more than a black and white attitude on training all dogs.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

shepherdmom said:


> Effective training or effective management?


Years ago I developed a protocol to stop LE K−9's from chasing cats on yard−to−yard searches. I knew that the simple crittering methods that existed previous to my efforts (blasting the dog with high levels of stim once the chase had started) were not suited for this issue as they often made the dogs fear the prey animal because he was able to _ 'hurt them from a distance.' _ I could not have the LE K−9's fearing cats and or cat scent because virtually every back yard in a residential neighborhood has had a cat in it at some point during the night. Such a dog might refuse to enter the yard or worse, might enter, but be so focused on the fact that he could be hurt again, that he was not hunting. Some dogs might be able to cover up (from their handlers) the fact that they were looking for a cat to avoid, rather than hunting for the hiding crook. 

The protocol that I developed (CLICK HERE) does just that. The dog is fully aware of the cat, yet he's not afraid of it. He just does not chase it any more. This works whether the owner is present or not, and whether the dog is under command or not. 

Dozens, perhaps hundreds of SAR workers have used it to stop their dogs from chasing deer. Granted, not the cat issue, but one that is virtually identical. 

I've done several clinics for LE K−9's to help with this issue. In one of the early ones that I did, a Mal had chased, caught, killed and started to shred, a cat in his own backyard. A couple of night later he was able to repeat this. He stopped hunting for crooks and was hunting for more cats on his searches. I worked the protocol on him, and the other dogs on that agency. He stopped chasing cats and went back to hunting man. For the LE K−9's I add another bit of training to the mix. I have a cat in a wire crate and set it up so that when the dog gets the sight/scent of the cat, a fight with a hidden decoy takes place. Those dogs get the scent of a cat in a back yard and instead of being distracted, INCREASE their intensity on the hunt for the man.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I'd love to hear from these paragons. . .since you speak for them tell me were I am wrong.


I think that you're speaking of breeders, and I've taken the liberty of adding trainers to that mix, who say (to the effect) that a _"working line"_ Mal can't be trained not to kill cats. 

I'm certainly no _"paragon,"_ but I've been successful in training such dogs not to chase or to kill cats. I've linked to my method for doing this. I've done it over 200 times myself, with only one failure, with an owner who refused to do some work at home that ensured failure.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> With all due respect Lou, I am sure you have stopped many Mals from chasing and killing cats. I have a question for you. Once completed, does your crittering method work when the dog is not wearing a collar?


Yes. Training that produces reliability only when the dog is wearing an Ecollar is flawed. The dog has made the association that he can only be corrected when the collar is one. If a trainer is not careful, this can occur with any training tool or even materials or circumstances not used for training. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can you trust the dog loose at night in the house with cats or when you were not home?


I just got up from a nap a few minutes ago. I discovered that I had locked the cat in the bedroom along with the dogs, among them a _"working line"_ Mal. When I go out, I leave the cat alone with all the dogs. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> How about a cat on the dog's property when it is out alone, is your method fail proof?


Nothing is fail proof. But I can say that I've had it fail only once, as stated above. My wife's dog, a GSD (to move the goal posts, but this IS a GSD forum, lol) will run a trail down a sidewalk with dog−after−dog who is fence fighting as she goes past them, (the protocol also works on dog−to−dog aggression). She's run a trail right past a cat a few feet off the trail. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Would you trust your cat's lives to this method?


I regularly do.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thanks for the input Lou, much appreciated. It is good to know there are successful methods out there to choose from.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> The protocol that I developed (CLICK HERE) does just that. The dog is fully aware of the cat, yet he's not afraid of it. He just does not chase it any more. This works whether the owner is present or not, and whether the dog is under command or not.
> 
> Dozens, perhaps hundreds of SAR workers have used it to stop their dogs from chasing deer. Granted, not the cat issue, but one that is virtually identical.


Thanks for the info. This is completely different from what we were told back when Buddy and Shadow were still alive and young. I don't know if e-collars were around and being used back then? I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to try using a tool like that. I think that kind of stuff is best left to professionals. 

Today I live in an area where the trainers I can find, are positive treat based only, no prong, no e-collar. Do you think prey drive can be trained out using a treat based approach?


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

I think there are people on this board that need to be retrained/resocialized, not their dogs. It's not that deep you know!

No wonder things are a mess nowadays, you can't have an opinion without someone making it their life mission to prove you wrong...very sad.

I hope it works out for you OP. I wish I had advice to give you, but I am not nearly experienced enough to offer it. I do think redirection is always a good thing. I had to do that in the beginning with my cats, and what Lilie said also. Repetition is key!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

shepherdmom said:


> Thanks for the info. This is completely different from what we were told back when Buddy and Shadow were still alive and young. I don't know if e-collars were around and being used back then?


I don't know when your dogs were _"alive and young"_ so I can't answer. Practical Ecollars were invented @ 1968, but those tools were not suited for use with today's 'low stim' methods that some favor. Such collars became popular in the early 1990's. 



shepherdmom said:


> I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to try using a tool like that. * I think that kind of stuff is best left to professionals. *


Nah, Ecollars are easier to learn to use than the so−called "kinder gentler methods. Those methods require more time to learn the esoteric knowledge that is needed, and require better timing, than an Ecollar, used with my methods. And there's quite a bit of disagreement over just how _"kinder and gentler"_ they really are. Such thoughts may exist only in the minds of those who prefer those methods because they refuse to see the truth about them. The dogs may have a different opinion about them. 

Take a look around this, or any dog forum and you'll see post after post that begin with something like, "HELP, Fido chased a deer into the woods and would not come when I called him!" or threads like this one, where a dog can't be stopped from chasing. I don't care how _"gentle"_ a method is, if it does not provide reliable results in this, an often life threatening situation, to me it's worse than worthless. 

TAKE A LOOK AT THE TESTIMONIALS on my site (CLICK HERE) from people who purchased an Ecollar and then let it sit on a shelf because they were _"afraid"_ of it due to all the myths and rumors that they've heard. Then they had 'an incident' that made them give it a try. Almost universally they felt foolish for having hesitated, and not getting their problem solved. 



shepherdmom said:


> Today I live in an area where the trainers I can find, are positive treat based only, no prong, no e-collar.


Yep, that's been in vogue for some time now. It works on many dogs for some issues. But they don't work on all dogs for many issues, like this one. My protocols were written especially for someone who has never used an Ecollar, or even trained a dog with any tool/method in their life. They're written in a 'how−to' fashion so anyone who can read and follow simple instructions can put them to use. 



shepherdmom said:


> Do you think prey drive can be trained out using a treat based approach?


You can't remove prey drive from a dog. Using some tools you can suppress it, but it will always come back, especially if it's at high levels. You can't stop the drive, but you can control the behavior, if you use effective methods and tools.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I'm not sure I would have had the nerve to try using a tool like that. I think that kind of stuff is best left to professionals.
> 
> Today I live in an area where the trainers I can find, are positive treat based only, no prong, no e-collar. Do you think prey drive can be trained out using a treat based approach?


I used to be a positive-trainer only but that was before I had the WL GSDs.
Their prey drive could not be cured with the positive, treat based, clicker methods. For any other regular dog training issues, that has worked fine but not with this intense level of prey drive.
So it forced me to be more open minded about other options that are taboo in the positive-only circles. I too never in my wildest dreams thought that I would ever use an E collar or even a prong. But you know what? I tried the E collar on myself and it is not that horrific sensation you have in mind and that level works well on my dog. Within a week she has stopped chasing all wild life and cats.Doesn't even pounce on snakes and field mice anymore. Just the way I wanted; immediate generalization. I never used a command and no association with me during the stims. I did, however, do a lot of reading, asking questions and got great help on this forum before I used it. She will continue to wear that collar for a very long time and it will be active "until she and I have completely forgotten about the issue" (statement from my breeder).
On a side note: I would never use an E collar for breeds like sight hounds who are hardwired to chase and kill from the get-go as I don't think it is fair to change who they are in their core, nor will I use it for the regular obedience training with any dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Thank you Wolfy Dog and Lou Castle. Both your replies were informative and helpful.  I think I am done with working lines for my personal dogs but I help in rescue and we occasionally come across high prey drive Shepherds. It 
is nice to have the appropriate information to pass along to potential adopters.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> I used to be a positive-trainer only but that was before I had the WL GSDs.
> Their prey drive could not be cured with the positive, treat based, clicker methods. For any other regular dog training issues, that has worked fine but not with this intense level of prey drive. So it forced me to be more open minded about other options that are taboo in the positive-only circles. I too * never in my wildest dreams thought that I would ever use an E collar or even a prong. * But you know what? I tried the E collar on myself and it is not that horrific sensation you have in mind and that level works well on my dog.


Glad to hear of your 'awakening!' 



wolfy dog said:


> On a side note: I would never use an E collar for breeds like sight hounds who are hardwired to chase and kill from the get-go as * I don't think it is fair to change who they are in their core, *


If a GSD or any other breed for that matter, has pronounced levels of prey drive, as do working line sighthounds, then _"chasing and killing"_ is just as much a part of _"their core"_ as it is in sighthounds. You're not _"chang[ing] who they are in their core,"_ you're just controlling their behavior. You still allow the drive to come out but you do so under your control, with games of fetch, 'chase the ball/Kong/etc.,' the use of flirt poles, bitework, and the like. 



wolfy dog said:


> nor will I use it for the regular obedience training with any dog.


I don't limit myself to just 'fixing problems' with the Ecollar. If you do that it's very difficult and time consuming to get the dog to perform when it's removed. Rather I use it for basic OB and then transfer it to other things. When this is done problem solving is MUCH easier than just limiting it to that sort of work, because the dog already is 'collar literate.' That means he understands five things about the Ecollar. 


When the stim starts, the dog has done something wrong. 
When the stim stops, the dog has done something right. 
The dog is in charge of when the stim starts and when it stops. 
The stim is a result of his behavior. 
The stim comes from the environment. 

Forms of training that have behaviors taught with other methods and then overlay the Ecollar as just a correction for noncompliance, do not teach these things. If you do it this way, even if you show the dog what is expected, you're forced to work at much higher levels of stim than where he first feels it. And many users simply allow the dog to guess how to shut off the stim. I think that's unfair and so, long before I use it for corrections, I make sure that the dog understands what the stim means.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LouCastle said:


> If a GSD or any other breed for that matter, has pronounced levels of prey drive, as do working line sighthounds, then _"chasing and killing"_ is just as much a part of _"their core"_ as it is in sighthounds. You're not _"chang[ing] who they are in their core,"_ you're just controlling their behavior. You still allow the drive to come out but you do so under your control, with games of fetch, 'chase the ball/Kong/etc.,' the use of flirt poles, bitework, and the like.


Exactly, this is what the breeders told me.  They never said their extreme prey Mals could not be trained, they stated that chasing and killing is their inherent nature.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Lou, do you think you could control a Saluki's prey drive with an Ecollar?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> Lou, do you think you could control a Saluki's prey drive with an Ecollar?


I've worked with two Salukis. I was able to teach both of them a recall no matter how far they were from the handler or what distraction was present. Neither owner was interested in crittering their dogs, but both dogs recalled with rabbits in their environment. 

I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a dog that an Ecollar won't work well on. But I've put Ecollars on over 4,000 dogs now and haven't come across one.


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