# Does SAR not exist in Ontario, Canada anymore?



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am feeling a little frustrated. 

Hunter and I do obedience and IPO competitively/regularly. I would really, really love to be an _ACTIVE_ SAR team in Ontario - but no matter how many e-mails I send, I just can't get in contact with anyone. I am feeling pretty frustrated.

Would love to use Hunter's exceptional working abilities to help the community, and help him grow and mature as a working dog.

Any advice? BLAH! Very frustrating.. Ontario is a dog sport/job wasteland.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, my experience with most SAR teams is slow answers to emails. If you found an actual contact you may want to call if it is not "the" emergency number. Figure most SAR folks (at least here) work full time jobs AND do SAR and do other things....

It could also be about what is in your emails. Are you talking about what a great dog you have or that YOU want to serve the community. Most SAR teams view the dog as a tool and it is the people they are more interested in. That is because they want someone who will stay on and get another dog or find a way to support the team in other ways if the dog is not suitable.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> It could also be about what is in your emails. Are you talking about what a great dog you have or that YOU want to serve the community. Most SAR teams view the dog as a tool and it is the people they are more interested in. That is because they want someone who will stay on and get another dog or find a way to support the team in other ways if the dog is not suitable.


Nope, I am just saying I am interested in getting involved actively as a SAR team with my young male.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I had the most luck finding a local (well, a few hours drive) SAR team at a pet expo, they had a booth setup and were willing to talk for a while. After we talked I had to give up on it because of my job (there's no way I could have the freedom I'd need, and would not be able to afford the equipment/training). The team I chatted with was not interested in my dog at all (which was fine since this was before I got Nikon and Coke is no SAR prospect), they explained the training and certifications I'd have to do without a dog that would have probably taken me two years.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We tell prospects they may spend between $3000 and $5000 a year. (A lot of that in fuel) Have to have a boss who will let them take off as needed on short notice [we expect 50% attendance on search calls] and do allow the other coursework concurrently with training a dog but it is a lot easier to knock it all out first...and of course a supportive family as this stuff is hard on families. Not sure why folks like to go missing on Christmas Eve or Thanksgiving [or whenever the heck Boxing day is] or the day after your New Years party.

The first team I joined took about 6 months of phone calls and emails to connect for a training. The second was about 3 months. I usually check our email box about once a month but we get a lot of spam so if it has no title, or something that sounds like spam out it goes.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

chances are that your dog won't be accepted . No bite training . You have to join a group , I can get you names to contact . The training will be done to RCMP standards , and certification will come from the OPP . 
But first you have to show your dedication , and develop skills, and demonstrate that you can work with a group . No dog. Just you , a map, a grid , and lots and lots of time . Go wherever they instruct you to go , and do not miss a day . Training can be 3 times a week . I know one very eager , dedicated person who was eliminated because he missed one training session after having participated in many capacities for over a year . 
SAR is not a sport or hobby to while away the time. 
The dog has to have exceptional finding / search skills and will be tested rigorously -- in all conditions , all temperatures - snow storm , rain, high wind, urban, rural , multi surface . A far cry from schutzhund step to step if that is what you are familiar with. 

SAR does not care " help him grow and mature as a working dog" It is not to help your dog .

If you are serious I will get a number for you and PM you with it .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

also if they select you, it is you that is important and then the dog is chosen for you , meaning , be prepared to wash out dogs and keep on going till you have a suitable canine team member .


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

carmspack said:


> chances are that your dog won't be accepted . No bite training . You have to join a group , I can get you names to contact . The training will be done to RCMP standards , and certification will come from the OPP .
> But first you have to show your dedication , and develop skills, and demonstrate that you can work with a group . No dog. Just you , a map, a grid , and lots and lots of time . Go wherever they instruct you to go , and do not miss a day . Training can be 3 times a week . I know one very eager , dedicated person who was eliminated because he missed one training session after having participated in many capacities for over a year .
> *SAR is not a sport or hobby to while away the time. *
> The dog has to have exceptional finding / search skills and will be tested rigorously -- in all conditions , all temperatures - snow storm , rain, high wind, urban, rural , multi surface . A far cry from schutzhund step to step if that is what you are familiar with.
> ...


The bold part above is how I feel. Schutzhund is a hobby for me and my dogs. I train actively and participate in trials, but I am not serving the community. SAR is an active working job for these dogs and is full-time, not just a fun sport.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

One person here in Ontario wanted Zefra for SAR, as you are aware Angel. 

I myself, view SAR as a "job", not a hobby. I do not have the time nor the commitment to take this on. My passion lies elsewhere (schH).

I think SAR is a unique venue that only a selected group of people have the passion for. I am thankful they do of course, but I think you really need to be committed to this venue if your going to do it.

I have a contact to give you if you want it. You know who it is I am sure, but I have her number if you want it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In Ontario no dog is allowed with bite training , no schutzhund . Sport and work are such a different approach . The raising and training are different . The dog needs to think things out independantly not just follow orders .


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Carmen - my dog was evaluated less than 2 months ago and was asked to join training. I can send you the evaluators name and the person who wanted to train them with their team if you like. I will not post it here though.

Also, they knew she did schH.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is one link FAQ 
here is another OVERT.CA - Canine - one of my dogs was one of the founding team members --


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I love when people pretend they know me and make assumptions about me. It's really great.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't really see anyone making assumptions about you? But anyhoo.

SAR people are finnicky. One little thing (or lack of one little thing) in your email can make them disregard you.

I know on my own team, this type of feel would have been an automatic "not interested": Would love to use Hunter's exceptional working abilities to help the community, and help him grow and mature as a working dog.

Not making any assumptions, but if you at all focus on your dog and not what YOU can bring and why YOU want to be on a team they could be feeling like you have a nice dog you want to get into SAR, not you are a handler desperate to do SAR who happens to have a dog who can do the job...or, for that matter....I wouldn't even mention your dog in your initial email since by the time you're on a team and they have you trained to the point where they think you're ready to work a dog they might say Hunter is too old to start.....although every team is different in these requirements.

Regarding the bitework issue...I'm sure Canada is no different than the US. It really varies from team to team. I wouldn't be surprised if the second team does allow it since they have a dog on the team who trained with the US Military who was washed from the progam because of an impacted tooth (and bitework is the only thing I can imagine would matter if he had in impacted tooth).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Wild Wolf said:


> I love when people pretend they know me and make assumptions about me. It's really great.


I don't really see that is the case in this thread but people on SAR teams can and do make assumptions based on what they see in emails or hear in person.

Assumptions based on years of screening applicants and seeing who does and who does not pan out...and some of the "obstacles" are because those are things that cause people to opt out.

So it is not fair, and people intentionally try to be open minded but we all see the world through different glasses no matter what we do.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I don't really see anyone making assumptions about you? But anyhoo.
> 
> SAR people are finnicky. One little thing (or lack of one little thing) in your email can make them disregard you.
> 
> ...


We both know how "finnicky" your team really was/is. 

Also, if I knew back then what I know now, I would have joined the Hampton K9 group from the very beginning and safed myself all that trouble. 

Stick with Schutzhund. If they don't even send you an email "We are sorry but we have no space" it's not worth it to begin with. If you would like to do SAR, try to do the IRO RH instead.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs K, you had one bad experience and that is not a fair assesment of all the teams who bust their hump and loose their vacations to go after missing people. 

A lot of times, a little discomfort in getting in is not about a "closed club" but about teams having preconceived notions based in experience on who does and does not "stick". Not intentional, most folks I know try to be openminded (well, we also have a no bitework policy) but no matter what we do, experience colors our perceptions. Mass generalization is a human trait. Every dogsport person who joins, then leaves a team because it is not living up to their "dog" expectations, reinforces the generalization.

Delays in getting in may be because it is more important to get that team who is nearing certification status finished so they can be a resource. New dogs need to be started when it is best for the team as the goal is to have operational dog teams up, running, and maintained. 

If the passion is with finding people more than working the dogs, they are likely to stay and do whatever the team thinks is important because they also see the dog as one of many tools and the goal is to find the missing person. A lot of times we have a search and a perfectly good dog spends the whole night in the truck because we need to use the people in other ways. 

The training part is great fun! Searching, not always, not by a longshot......I can't drive by a place where we went on a search without the whole thing "coming back" in my head. The hardest being the little three year old boy found in the river. We did a stress debriefing and all that but the tears still flow everytime I think about that one. On the other hand there is no joy deeper than what you feel when you hear "they found him" "and he's alive" , especially when it is a dog made the find (often it is a ground foot team without a dog-or even a last minute reverse 911 call response).

The IRO RH is a dogsport and not adopted over here by many teams (including FEMA I think) as a viable certification for any deployable dogs. I don't know if it is or is not in Canada. *There is a lot good about it and I think it would be a feather in the cap of someone with an air scent dog* (mainly for a non scent specific air scent dog, certainly not for a cadaver dog or a trailing dog-and the leadership of the IRO does not even really believe trailing "works" and push footstep tracking only)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Another thing to think about is if you are willing to totally give up schh for sar....most teams won't let you do 2 things like that at once....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> A lot of times, a little discomfort in getting in is not about a "closed club" but about teams having preconceived notions based in experience on who does and does not "stick". Not intentional, most folks I know try to be openminded (well, we also have a no bitework policy) but no matter what we do, experience colors our perceptions.


This sounds a lot like SchH actually, at least when you are training with very small clubs that have very limited resources. I know in the past I've come off as not very helpful or communicative but what a lot of people don't realize is that for every 20 people that e-mail me (the club address) asking how to join, telling me their dog's life story, I get *maybe* two people that actually show up to observe training and would be lucky if one of those two came back a second time let alone make an effort to join. People bring up the 80/20 but in our case (and probably similar for SAR) it was more like 95/5....5% of the people usually taking up 95% of the time/resources getting them started and able to make the commitment. Unfortunately for newbies that really are committed it's often like swimming upstream but we were all there before and pushed through. I know some clubs are intentionally standoffish in order for newbies to have to prove themselves. I've never done SAR so I could just be blowing smoke but I wouldn't be surprised if it is similar and can certainly empathize. 

Anyway, like I said earlier, I never got anywhere via e-mail but got the information and contacts I needed when I found the SAR team at a local event and showed up in person.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Your obeservations are very much similar. Actually a lot of good folks come from EMS, Fire, LE, retired military because one big issue is the idea of chain of command seems foreign to many civilians....particularly younger ones.

Hunters are also great folks. They know the woods, how to multitask with reading sign, navigating, etc. One of our most recent members is a hunter and volunteer firefighter and he is jam up good.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> The IRO RH is a dogsport and not adopted over here by many teams (including FEMA I think) as a viable certification for any deployable dogs. I don't know if it is or is not in Canada. *There is a lot good about it and I think it would be a feather in the cap of someone with an air scent dog* (mainly for a non scent specific air scent dog, certainly not for a cadaver dog or a trailing dog-and the leadership of the IRO does not even really believe trailing "works" and push footstep tracking only


)

It isn't just a sport. 
I am getting so sick and tired of statements like that. IRO is NOT just a sport. It is the INTERNATIONAL RESCUE DOG ORGANIZATION! 
Is there a sport? Yes! But most importantly the IRO educates, trains and certifies, GLOBALLY, Search and Rescue dogs. There is MUCH more to the IRO than you make it sound like! So I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the IRO. 


Mission Readiness Test: IRO - Internationale Rettungshunde Organisation


> Mission Readiness Test (MRT)
> *For preparation and safe-keeping of sending only highest qualified teams into international deployment, the IRO holds the so called IRO Mission Readiness Test whose positive results are confirmed by the IRO Mission Certificate. The evaluation of the different tasks is supported by a program also used by REDOG Switzerland, AFDRU (Austrian Forces Disaster Relief Unit) and as well by the Austrian Red Cross.
> 
> The MRT takes place on two days in two groups. The number of participants is limited to 36 doghandlers and 12 dog leaders. The dog leader leeds the search group, which consists of at least 3 search dog teams (rescue dog handler and rescue dog).
> ...


Maybe read some of their Mission Reports and then go ahead and say again that IRO is "just" a sport!
Mission reports: IRO - Internationale Rettungshunde Organisation


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think that Nancy's point is that it IS a sport currently in the US. I'm not aware of any teams who have adopted the RH as the test to get someone certified. So if Angel went and did it on her own, it would be nothing more than a fun title to have, not something that would make her part of an operational team.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes my statement was in regards to the US and there are some issues which make it no so attractive to non GSD people and trailing and cadaver people plus it does not mesh with the NIMS standards.

I think the test looks like a good supplement but we sure won't field someone who has not passed an 80-120 acre day test and a 40 acre night test. Most teams have a 40 acre as rock bottom minimum and IRO does not touch that. Like I said I think there is some good stuff there but .......... and maybe FEMA and IRO should talk but for the average wilderness dog......meh

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From what I understand from some European SAR handlers, trailing is an oddity over there and folks like Kevin Kocher are going over and changing paradigms and they want to do trailing but the IRO has no use or interest in pursuing. And if there is anything for cadaver let me know because I would be glad to push my dog through IRO but *NOT* if it means he has to find a live person, follow a track, or tow a boat by a rope or ride on a surfboard. NOT practical.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I think that Nancy's point is that it IS a sport currently in the US. I'm not aware of any teams who have adopted the RH as the test to get someone certified. So if Angel went and did it on her own, it would be nothing more than a fun title to have, not something that would make her part of an operational team.


There is an RH team right here in NY and I'm not talking about your old team, it's a team located in the Adirondacks. 

And then there is the Search Dog Organization of North America which is rather new and working with IRO Standard and an actual member of the IRO if I'm not mistaken. 
Home Page - Search Dog Organization of North America

So whether "we" like it or not. The IRO shouldn't be disregarded. It is coming to the US and it was only a matter of time anyways.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> From what I understand from some European SAR handlers, trailing is an oddity over there and folks like Kevin Kocher are going over and changing paradigms and they want to do trailing but the IRO has no use or interest in pursuing. And if there is anything for cadaver let me know because I would be glad to push my dog through IRO but *NOT* if it means he has to find a live person, follow a track, or tow a boat by a rope or ride on a surfboard. NOT practical.


Not true. You wouldn't believe how popular Mantrailing is in Germany and Austria. I am following the Mantrailing Academy Austria, especially Karina Kalks is a big name over in Austria and Germany. 
Mantrailing Academy Austria
She is doing it with Weimaraner.

And here is the Suchhundezentrum of Germany, Austria and Switzerland
http://www.suchhunde-zentrum.de/


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Then they need to become NIMS compliant and their standards need to lockstep with SWGDOG --- FWIW, none of those reports (5 searches, 4 deployments since 2009) mentioned any live finds and the HR finds mentioned were with non IRO dogs.

The LE and SAR community need to concern themselves about what is best for locating the victim not whether to dance with some international disaster standard, particularly for single person wilderness events.

I don't dislike it but I think most legitimate SAR teams and dispatching LE are not impressed at this point in time. We have a lot of NAPWDA membership down here and that is who we cert to. THey were involved in NIMS and SWGDOG as well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Not true. You wouldn't believe how popular Mantrailing is in Germany and Austria. I am following the Mantrailing Academy Austria, especially Karina Kalks is a big name over in Austria and Germany.
> Mantrailing Academy Austria
> She is doing it with Weimaraner.
> 
> ...


Yest but is it not true that the IRO has dismissed mantrailing? Much the interested folks have learned is from American Trailing experts!!

At least that is the buzz I get on the SAR board I am on and Bill Dotson as well as several Europeans are on the forum. [you need to be documented as on a team and invited to participate]


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Then they need to become NIMS compliant and their standards need to lockstep with SWGDOG --- FWIW, none of those reports (5 searches, 4 deployments since 2009) mentioned any live finds and the HR finds mentioned were with non IRO dogs.
> 
> The LE and SAR community need to concern themselves about what is best for locating the victim not whether to dance with some international disaster standard, particularly for single person wilderness events.
> 
> I don't dislike it but I think most legitimate SAR teams and dispatching LE are not impressed at this point in time. We have a lot of NAPWDA membership down here and that is who we cert to. THey were involved in NIMS and SWGDOG as well.


Do you really think that is all deployments they had in the past years? IRO is all over Germany, all over Austria, all over Switzerland. Not every deployment, of every single team will have a mission report posted on the IRO Website. And they are not as sensation hungry as people in the US and who cares if they post HR/Live or whatever find they had on their website. This is not about the finds themselves. 

If they are so not impressed why are they calling the IRO over to the US to hold Seminars all the time? From California, to NY, to Canada. They are holding Seminars all over the world. Thailand, UK, Ukraine... 

The IRO is much bigger than any of the US organizations ever will be. It is an Umbrella Organisation for* 112 national SAR Teams of 39 different countries. *And their success proofs them right.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh, and this one is a member of the IRO as well, it's the one I was talking about earlier. It's not a NY but an NH team. 
Canine Alert Search Teams, Peterborough, NH

Here is a whole list of their members. Do yolu really think anyone would join them if they weren't successful in what they are doing? 
http://www.iro-dogs.org/de/ueber-uns/mitglieder.html


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sandra, ok.......the thread has gone of track.........YOU were the one that pointed to the "mission reports' and I followed the links. 

My repsonse to the OP was that an IRO cert will not make you a deployable resource for most agencies. That is true! 

Most teams could care less about the IRO because it does not seem to meet real world needs for wilderness SAR. Since I am not on a disaster team, I really cannot speak to disaster ops with any more credibility than you can to wilderness operations. 

That does not mean the elements it tests are invalid or that there is no value added and maybe things to incorporate. I doubt Europe will "bully" the US into using its standards. If FEMA and SUSAR dogs become IRO then the wilderness community will need to take the bull by the horns.


EVERYTHING I read IRO seems to be related to disaster. Any response I make must be colored as being viewed by someone looking through wilderness goggles! Which is why I never make comments about USAR ....... or even SUSAR.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra...you're missing the point.........which is.........if Angel went out and got the RH on her own it would not make her any closer to be an operational member of a SAR K9 team!

And what team in the Adirondacks is using the RH as their ONLY certifying standard?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The New Hampshire team are also NASAR members (who have dog cert standards), have certified their HRD dogs through IPWDA, and work with Chris weeks who is an excellent trailing (not tracking-though I think he does that too) instructor. Chris used to be with Raleigh NC PD but moved back to NH because they had young children and wanted to be closer to "home" 

He got our HRD dogs started, and we fly him down at least once a year for troubleshooting and training with our trailing and HR dogs. He have even been helpful with some air scent strategies.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> The New Hampshire team are also NASAR members (who have dog cert standards), have certified their HRD dogs through IPWDA, and work with Chris weeks who is an excellent trailing (not tracking-though I think he does that too) instructor. Chris used to be with Raleigh NC PD but moved back to NH because they had young children and wanted to be closer to "home"
> 
> He got our HRD dogs started, and we fly him down at least once a year for troubleshooting and training with our trailing and HR dogs. He have even been helpful with some air scent strategies.


One does not have to exclude the other. 

@Justine, no I don't miss the point. All I'm saying is, that she doesn't have to be a member on a team to do SAR. Granted, she can't be operational and only do it sportswise but if she wants to do SAR for no other reason than doing SAR without going operational, than the sport RH is the perfect solution and all she needs is to train with her Schutzhund Pals. 
Again, she wouldn't be operational and couldn't be deployed but she can still do it, without being on a team.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Sandra, ok.......the thread has gone of track.........YOU were the one that pointed to the "mission reports' and I followed the links.
> 
> My repsonse to the OP was that an IRO cert will not make you a deployable resource for most agencies. That is true!
> 
> ...


IRO also has Wilderness Area Search Dogs, just saying... especially in Germany we don't have many disaster cases... however, it's not the IRO pushing but people like Bill Dotson that wanted to be part of the IRO to up the Standards of the Search Dogs. They have created the new Organization because they wanted it and saw the needs for it, not because the IRO has bullied them into it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There are some elements of the IRO that would supplement and up standards for K9 SAR but there are also other things in currently recongnized standards that exceed IRO and could make it more useable for wilderness. As a complement for non scent discriminatory air scent I did not say or think there was a problem. As a replacement for anything requiring scent discrimination as well as cadaver I just don't see any utility.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Back to the OP. One of the first questions when you do get up with a team are what are the standards to which you train and test. I assume Canada has different than the US. The US has many different K9 standards.......NASAR, NAPWDA, IPWDA, LETS, NSDA, etc. but most have a LOT of overlap as they all dance with our NIMs requiremens so (for the most part, the tests cover the same thing) SWGDOG is a consensus standard with intent to be used by certifying agencies for all aspects of working dogs from selection to kenneling to training to medical care etc. Some states have their own standards as well as some teams. ..... So it can all get quite confusing. THere is a lot of beaurocracy in search and rescue  

I have not even gone into the HUMAN requirements either.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there definitely are human requirements , including fitness levels - same as police or fire fighters , and yes you do have to be on a team , often a team member demonstrating your ability to work well together , and are committed long before a dog as partner is in the picture .So this " All I'm saying is, that she doesn't have to be a member on a team to do SAR. Granted, she can't be operational and only do it sportswise but if she wants to do SAR for no other reason than doing SAR without going operational, than the sport RH is the perfect solution and all she needs is to train with her Schutzhund Pals. 
Again, she wouldn't be operational and couldn't be deployed but she can still do it, without being on a team. "
to my experience and knowledge does not apply in Ontario.

I have had many dogs in SAR in Canada including avalanche dog (co-bred) and RCMP cert dogs including Nina a Kilo daughter that lived to 15 and Henry both handled by the same person in succession though not at the same time. There was this comment "
I love when people pretend they know me and make assumptions about me. It's really great. " Sorry totally lost on that , what is the meaning on that .

__________________


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Here is SAR activity in another province -- standards are the same as in Ontario. Precision Search Dog - About
This person travels to evaluate dogs used as SAR team members - many of the dogs on this team are Yeulett's/Carmspack gsds.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Carmen - just curious - if a dog was trained in schH but had not received any titles yet would they still be considered "bite trained" and be disqualified? Just trying to understand why Zefra was evaluated the way she was when it was fully disclosed of her training history. She has never titled (yet) obviously as at the time she was 16-17 months old.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Okay, so now my mind is turning.. lol.. more questions; is a SAR dog allowed to do any sport they like outside of bite training? I would wonder how lure course training would coincide with this type of work?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Carmen - just curious - if a dog was trained in schH but had not received any titles yet would they still be considered "bite trained" and be disqualified? Just trying to understand why Zefra was evaluated the way she was when it was fully disclosed of her training history. She has never titled (yet) obviously as at the time she was 16-17 months old.


Not all teams dismiss SchH dogs.... just saying...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Good question, hopefully they will elaborate. Personally I would not train a dog like mine for SAR because his prey drive (for actual prey, not necessarily dancing around for toys) is very high *and* I routinely encourage it by allowed him to chase and kill prey and do lure coursing (which we don't train for, we just *do*). I'm sure it could be done because the control is there and if I intended to do SAR I would not have encouraged this from the beginning, but in my opinion is somewhat of a "conflict of interest" especially since I use prey (allowing him to chase and "kill" - for real or catch a lure) as a way for him to de-stress, like if we do a cluster conformation show I'll enter him in a few coursing runs so he can literally cut loose. Lure coursing is one area where I have very intentionally *not* put a lot of control on the dog.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Not all teams dismiss SchH dogs.... just saying...


This is where I am confused. 

I know Carmen is very respected in our area, and I do respect and admire the work she has done and is continuing to do. So, no one take my inquiries the wrong way please... BUT.. I very recently had an encounter with this - Mrs. K, I explained to you via FB what transpired so you are "in the loop" - so this may seem out of the blue to the rest - but want to understand since i know Carmen has a great influence in this area in many venues.

I know the people who did her evaluation are HIGHLY respected in MANY working venues in this area as well and am SURE she knows them or at least OF them, so this is what is causing the confusion for me.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Good question, hopefully they will elaborate. Personally I would not train a dog like mine for SAR because his prey drive (for actual prey, not necessarily dancing around for toys) is very high *and* I routinely encourage it by allowed him to chase and kill prey and do lure coursing (which we don't train for, we just *do*). I'm sure it could be done because the control is there and if I intended to do SAR I would not have encouraged this from the beginning, but in my opinion is somewhat of a *"conflict of interest"* especially since I use prey (allowing him to chase and "kill" - for real or catch a lure) as a way for him to de-stress, like if we do a cluster conformation show I'll enter him in a few coursing runs so he can literally cut loose. Lure coursing is one area where I have very intentionally *not* put a lot of control on the dog.


This is my thought too...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The interpretation of bitework varies and that is an ongoing very hot discussion. I think it comes down to the individual team or governing agency. *Threads almost always fall apart during this discussion and if someone wants to pursue, lets pick up on an existing thread with that topic or start a new one*. I think the key thing is to be aware it may be a limitation. 

Also accept that teams pay a LOT of money for their liability insurance and anything that can jeapardize it needs to be considered. The LE who deploy us will NOT use a bite trained dog to search for a missing person based on some court cases. [I actually posted about that earlier this year]

Just to let you know though that they know our dogs very well and several of these dogs are tug reward and also have (per the Master Trainer) a considerable amount of fight drive... I used to think you could have too much obedience but now that we have amped up to some stronger dogs from lines bred for police service, wow. You need a lot of obedience to maintain a respect/partner relationship. One change I have seen is an increase by ALL agencies in their obedience requiremens as people move away from pets to serious working line dogs in all breeds. 

My own attitude is if you have time be training in a different dog sport why aren't you spending that doing SAR related training? Some things can be related, like agility or obedience. Some folks who may not have a job and have money can pull it off but most of us suffer from having enough time to train in our discipline let alone other sports. THere is no such thing as "good enough" in SAR. Certifications are the beginning point of your training not the ending point.

Ah this was the most recent thread on Schutzhund dogs and SAR
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/search-rescue/189216-schutzhund-dogs-sar.html


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I forgot about that thread - good link.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

first of all " but want to understand since i know Carmen has a great influence " I have ZERO influence but I do have experience. Basically what I am told , I do . I am told what the requirements are and I need to fulfill them or get passed by . Past performance and reputation have no advantage when an individual dog is evaluated . Either he has it or not . 
As high level instinctive tracking is extremely important to my lines many of my dogs do end up in some search or detection capacity. 
I did ask one of the certifying officers (remember with the RCMP guidelines) about bite training and he was very clear about it , looking at me as if , why are YOU asking me this -- the answer was NO . 
I was on the phone this afternoon talking with my western connection , Yeulett , comparing notes on what the different line combinations are excelling at .
Asked her , same answer , no bite work . 
But that does not mean that the dogs are placid, docile , dogs. They have high drives and high prey drive , but they must be totally rock solid in their temperament and be very resilient and adaptable and be able to handle conflict and commotion both from team and from handler .

Just like Jocoyn said , there are liability issues , and there is no TIME left to train in anything else , this is a total committment . (so pretty much what Jocoyn said). It is highly unusual to have a dog evaluated in a casual manner , meaning Zefra , because without an operational human team member the dog is of no use . 

The link I gave for the Alberta group , that person just returned from evaluating search dogs for a group in West Virginia . This is a serious calling -- life or death -- not pleasant work because the results can be heavy , heart breaking .

One dog per person . In one department that one dog means one dog , so not even a "pet" dog at home . 
I (we) found that out how severe they were , when a handler who had one of my dogs , certified and operational , who was getting close to retirement -- annual recertification necessary by the way , a dog can fail at any time and be asked to brush up and come in for retest . If he fails a second time that's it . Anyway the person thought it would be a good idea to get a new candidate started so there would be a seamless re-entry with the new dog . I hand picked a female . She did some trainging on her on and then the trainer /evaluator / certifying officer found out and gave the option of choose one dog -- or you will have no dog and no you on the team. She sent the female back to me and happily she has produced some good service dogs for my program.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Carmen - by "influence" I meant has many dogs involved in work in our area. Maybe "influence" was the wrong word to use. Experience, definitely. I am only just getting my feet wet in the pond, while you Carmen have already swam many laps around it. Definitely 2 different view points.

But I will say (and this is not a negative thing) that with continued success comes influence and I am very sure you have some over the venues you work in. That is a GOOD thing if it is being done with thought which I believe it is. So, be proud of that and continue your work! 

Zefra was not evaluated in a casual manner - I can give you details if you like but I do not feel comfortable posting them here - it has been quite a.... well... issue for us over the past few months. If you would like the background of why she was evaluated please tell me and I will explain. 

All I know, and I will say this, is that the evaluator had full knowledge of Zefra's previous training and still wanted to welcome her to the team. Zefra would not of stayed in my care, that is all I will say on this unless you would like a PM.

I totally agree that a dog who is doing SAR should be totally committed to this venue - please see my original post in this thread - and I agree that there would be no time for anything else if done properly. Totally agree and never said otherwise.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes I would be interested . If they are looking for a young dog I can recommend a 6 month old who is doing multiple surface tracking . She is not my breeding, in fact happens to be total show lines , but is bred and owned by a person who has handled and bred SAR dogs .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

talk to elizabeth first. Than you will understand, Carmen. I don't think she has any contact to them.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Interesting information, thank you all.

I am going to be self employed soon, and I would like something like this (hard, high effort, difficult work with a canine partner) to dedicate myself to. I am passionate about this kind of work, for many reasons, all of which I do not have to nor will I spend the time explaining.

I am pursuing many things with Hunter. We are ready for his BH (this spring) in IPO, moving quickly towards IPO1. We are ready for his first competitive obedience title (pursuing it in a couple of days). We are about to have him certified with Therapy Dogs International (working with sick children and other sick patients once a week, certifying next month). We also just started agility, as well. He's very busy and trained in multiple venues. I realize now that is a lot.


I have a contact now for Ontario SAR, who is assisting me. I will learn more through the SAR teams here and attend some information sessions. Perhaps I will pursue this with one of my future puppies who can have "one main focus". 

We will see what happens with my contact, I trust their opinion and they will guide me and Hunter should we qualify for this as well. At this point, I want to start learning and getting involved at least for future endeavors. 


Nothing else to contribute to this topic, so I'm taking my leave.

Thanks again!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> talk to elizabeth first. Than you will understand, Carmen. I don't think she has any contact to them.


Carmen - I sent you a very long PM. Sorry for all the reading... lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Several of us HAVE taken a dog who has started in juvenille level of bitework but has not ever been put in defense and I am not sure how long along a young prospect being groomed for police service gets by the age we might select (around 14-18 months) a young adult. ..Not sure where the cutoff is and that would be good to know....How far along is a "Green" dog typically?

Grim was two when I got him and part of his assessment was he was not "agressive enough" - now I have had some keen officers say he was not the kind of dog a lot of police want because his thresholds were too high...very level headed...and that they felt he would be formidable if challenged...I honestly don't know, doesn't matter. He was also on the small side [don't worry that I speak in the past tense]

Both myself and the other cadaver dog handler have a second dog;the older "retired" one. Neither one of us has the time to maintain training for two dogs. She is keeping her old one for boat work only as she is good with many finds and her younger dog still has some issues with control on the boat. Grim's rear end stability issues killed him ever working on a boat again. The pet thing is a reality for Grim. Beau is outside most of the day and Grim inside being a couch potato because I telecommute. In the mornings and evenings, Beau is "my dog". And usually for some session mid day.

Working Beau on the boat is an amazing experience. It all clicked so well that at certification not only did we get written compliments on our test worksheet, the boat driver who was on the dive team said "that dog can come down here anytime we have a drowning".......I can't take credit for him on the boat. It seems to be natural to him and I am glad because over half of our cadaver calls are drownings. It was, however the police master trainer who had me do, yes, obedience with him ON THE BOAT and to not accept any craziness on it...says he is the "kind of dog" that needs an obedience routine before he works. Beau has the full of himself attitude I think more police seem to like.


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