# line breeding and genetic washout.



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Let me preface this thread with " I have no desire to now or ever breed dogs. However, I am sure that at some point I will be buying another puppy. And this info seems to contradict itself. I have heard and read that after 3 generations the genetics are washed out or have no relevance to the dog at hand. So with that info. Why line breed 5-5, 4-5 3-5, etc... what difference would that make on a litter. to line breed 1-2, 1-3, 2-3, etc... should only be done by a knowledgeable breeder with a direct purpose behind it. I understand that aspect. But, if genes are washed out why even worry about anything linebred past 3 generations. Can a dog 4 or 5 generations back have an impact on a litter? And if so does line breeding amplify a diluted scenario.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Many dogs are common in a pedigree, so a 5-5 is not what is 'sought after' but what occurs when pedigrees are blended. I think many breeders use popular dogs and of course there are those dogs that have the well known names on both sides, and line breeding is a given. 

I have seen similar characteristics in my male and other dogs that share his great grandsire...but it also may be attributed to the breeders goals of more serious type in the breeding match, not so much the dog a few generations back.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

First, the difference between Inbreeding and Line Breeding:

Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson. (More commonly what we would consider incest in people.) It is used to bring out the good, but because of how genetics works, it will also bring all of the bad out as well. Most consider it very risky for health issues.

Line Breeding is the third generation or beyond. It is used to get certain characteristics, or to improve on something that dog was known for producing. Some dogs are know for improving hips, etc... 

The thing with genetics is that it can come down from several generations back and show up out of the blue. That's why it's important to know the history about dogs, and what they have or have not produced. 

I personally prefer to not have any line breeding in the first 5 generations or what is considered an out cross. Most likely there is still some line breeding if you go back further than 5 generations. Have done a 3-4 line breeding on a female (most are typically done on males) and am happy with the drives, type and temperaments of my girl that I kept, my daughter's, and the owner of the sire took a girl.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

mnm said:


> First, the difference between Inbreeding and Line Breeding:
> 
> Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson. (More commonly what we would consider incest in people.) It is used to bring out the good, but because of how genetics works, it will also bring all of the bad out as well. Most consider it very risky for health issues.
> 
> ...


 That makes sense. But, what about those that say that without line breeding pups are a crap shoot. Genetics could be anything.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you don't know the traits/characteristics and their dominance or recessiveness, it really doesn't matter if you linebred or inbreed, it will still be crapshoot. The only way linebreeding, or inbreeding, or outcrossing is really useful is if you have indepth knowledge and understanding of the traits/characteristics of the dogs in the pedigree.


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## waveone (Jan 21, 2016)

mnm said:


> First, the difference between Inbreeding and Line Breeding:
> 
> Inbreeding is breeding Father to Daughter, Mother to Son, Grandfather to Granddaughter or Grandmother to Grandson. (More commonly what we would consider incest in people.) It is used to bring out the good, but because of how genetics works, it will also bring all of the bad out as well. Most consider it very risky for health issues.
> 
> ...


Very informative and it would seem common sense. If nothing else, a breeder resolved to breeding in- line so to speak might consider employing a mathematician to develop an algorithm of some kind in an attempt to minimize the risk.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Breeding is so much more complicated than portrayed by some of the posts. Notwithstanding, the need to know the characteristics of the dogs or lines in a pedigree, even the algorithm is more complicated than it appears. 
Example: If you take two linebreedings that are say 3-3, ( which means the same dog is in second generation of each parent), the projected result just based on this aspect,(3-3), can be vastly different. If the dog being linebred on is not linebred themself ( an outcross), then the impact of other dogs in first two generations will have large impact along with dog that is linebred on. BUT, if the dog linebred on is say inbred 2-2, then the impact of the dog constituting the 3-3 original linebreeding will dominate the breeding.
So, seeing a dog is linebred on 3-3 is just tip of iceberg in breeding.
Hope this makes sense to nonbreeders and novice breeders.....serious breeders should thoroughly understand this.
So really you not only have to know the characteristics of the dogs in a pedigree, BUT also the breeding( in,line,or out) of the dogs both that are linebred on and the dogs that aren't linebred on. 
When you have a grasp on all of these factors, pedigree analysis isn't as hocus pocus as some people think who only surf the surface.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

But wouldn't the sire and dam have the most impact or influence on a litter than say a 3-3 linebreed. That was itself linebred. 
Or another way to look at it. Take one of Ciro jivo's offspring. Ammo for example. Idk His whole story. He is with a breeder now who probably isn't gonna title him. I am sure he is a fine dog. but for sake of this argument let's say that he was a total wash. No drives, bad nerves, weak bite. Breed him with a dam with equally impressive pedigree but she's also a wash. Weak all around. No linebreeding. The parents weakness would dominate the pups over the impressive pedigrees. 
Those same two dogs but linebred on say 3-3 which is also a linebred dog then those pups would have a better chance of getting the strong characteristics of the lineage. Or do the weak parents still dominate the litter. 
Hope all that makes sense.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

sorry i know nothing about breeding or lines. my dog's sire side seems weird to me. people usually have 4 different grandparents. my dog's sire has the same grandparent on both sides. how bad is that if at all?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

scarfish said:


> sorry i know nothing about breeding or lines. my dog's sire side seems weird to me. people usually have 4 different grandparents. my dog's sire has the same grandparent on both sides. how bad is that if at all?



this is a 2-2 linebreeding - or actually inbreeding....I see this show up in many pet breeders who dont know or care - just breed what they have to make pups to make money....it was also done way back in the day for showing - andthe theory of producing type.. getting out a pedigree from teh 1960s on my first GSD, whose lineage included Dopplet-Tay, a big show kennel at the time, I saw the same thing! But today, it is only used by really really knowledgeable people who have a goal and know how to achieve it or by BYB who just breed because they can.

I am looking at a 2-3 down the road.....both dogs are of my breeding, my lines and I know the dogs and families well....both are very very healthy dogs and exhibit the character and behaviors and clearheadedness I want....both are super companions while being high drive in work with great grips and work behaviors.


Lee


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> this is a 2-2 linebreeding - or actually inbreeding....I see this show up in many pet breeders who dont know or care - just breed what they have to make pups to make money....it was also done way back in the day for showing - andthe theory of producing type.. getting out a pedigree from teh 1960s on my first GSD, whose lineage included Dopplet-Tay, a big show kennel at the time, I saw the same thing! But today, it is only used by really really knowledgeable people who have a goal and know how to achieve it or by BYB who just breed because they can.
> 
> I am looking at a 2-3 down the road.....both dogs are of my breeding, my lines and I know the dogs and families well....both are very very healthy dogs and exhibit the character and behaviors and clearheadedness I want....both are super companions while being high drive in work with great grips and work behaviors.
> 
> ...


What kind of issues are possible with that close of line breeding?


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

thanks lee. i wasn't looking for much from the breeder. she was a lady i met in my neighborhood that only bred her pet dogs once to keep 2 pups, and give the rest to friends and family. she had one left so i went to her house to meet her dogs and the other pups. never seen such friendly dogs and living in such a pampered environment. so i jumped on the pup. i knew they weren't the most thoughtful bred lines but later when i noticed that i got a little worried.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> this is a 2-2 linebreeding - or actually inbreeding....I see this show up in many pet breeders who dont know or care - just breed what they have to make pups to make money....it was also done way back in the day for showing - andthe theory of producing type.. getting out a pedigree from teh 1960s on my first GSD, whose lineage included* Dopplet-Tay, a big show kennel at the time,* I saw the same thing! But today, it is only used by really really knowledgeable people who have a goal and know how to achieve it or by BYB who just breed because they can.
> 
> Lee


I had a bitch in the 80's that had a Doppelt Tay mother bred to a workingline. Her mother was the most stunningly beautiful GSD I ever laid eyes on.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "If nothing else, a breeder resolved to breeding in- line so to speak might consider employing a mathematician to develop an algorithm of some kind in an attempt to minimize "

it would never ever work because the placements of those ancestors on the pedigree do not measure the value of what they contribute as far as character , drive, temperament in general.

ms wolfstraum mentioned Doppelt-Tay .
I was around the American bred show ring at that time . 

Lance of Fran Jo, parallel to the German experience with Canto Wienerau being chosen as a sire , 

the closest breeding that I can think of in recent times was a father to daughter breeding .

this is a *necessary* or common breeding formula in the foundation or creation of a new breed .

that breeding was Lance of Fran Jo 1 - 2 and the progeny were Zeus and Zeto Fran Jo.

Zeus of Fran-Jo

many of the Jimmy Moses' Kaleef dogs perpetuated this inbreeding .

even greater inbreeding occurred at the hand of Mary Vurma , a specialty judge , with this inbreeding Mirheim's Myletta 

and so it goes 

this set the future of the specialty bred American show line afficianado GSDs .

the all-breed GSD , judged under judges that were not GSD specialists and had an eye toward a more balanced animal had a different sub-set of "American" bred GSD - Yoncalla's Mike being an example , different conformation, bone, head and temperament.

that is pretty much when the American bred GSD set its type and could qualify as a separate and distinct breed .

I saw these dogs . I had hands on experience . I was even handed the leash and ran them around the ring .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@CDXwood.....answer me this question?
Who do you think will produce better hips:
1) a dog with OFA excellent hips but has three of six other dysplastic sisters or brothers,
2) a dog with mild hip dysplasia, but the other five sisters or brothers are OFA good?
What say you?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> @CDXwood.....answer me this question?
> Who do you think will produce better hips:
> 1) a dog with OFA excellent hips but has three of six other dysplastic sisters or brothers,
> 2) a dog with mild hip dysplasia, but the other five sisters or brothers are OFA good?
> What say you?


I say the dog with good hips.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not so fast ---

pedigree depth is more important .

the one with ofa excellent in this cliffson example is the irregular one and may not represent his genetic worth

the one with mild ? is the odd man out and may not represent his genetic background -- the reading may be due to
extreme over exertion - such as a young pup tearing after a snow mobile for exercise -- while the rest of his littermates
led normal lives


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

OK. Interesting. We'll this is the purpose of this thread. To better help me understand this stuff. I figured it could go either way but I thought the dog in front of you was the important thing to look at. It probably isn't too confusing but there is something to it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@CDXwood....Interesting! 
In Germany, a dysplastic dog is uncertified, ( which is moderate, severe, or crippling ), while mild is certified and classified as " nz " hips and thus breedable. 
So one dog would be from litter that half the litter had unbreedable hips, while the other litter had ALL the dogs in litter breedable from hips perspective. Which litter has better " genetic consistency "?
Caution: This example is for illustrative purposes only....why?, because in America not only are a lower percent of dogs X-rayed out of litters, but there is no requirement for an X-ray to be done FOR a dog to be bred as in Germany. So folks in America would do better to take your choice. But when sufficient information is available, I would use the mild dog before the OFA excellent dog every time.....and the more information available to breeder, the better choices to be made. That's why you have some American breeders that make it a requirement for hips to be xrayed before they give " full" registration on a pup, or give back monetary rebates for dogs being xrayed at 2 years of age. This enhances probability of them receiving knowledge of the majority or all the pup's hip status so as to make a really informed decision on stud/dam in terms of hip production. Otherwise, here in America, most breeders don't have a clue about genetic consistency in terms of hips.
Like I have often said, folks shouldn't be breeding without extensive knowledge/experience in the breed. And under knowledge; is understanding the indepth issues that many just don't consider or understand. 
There are no guarantees with breeding, but breeders that consistently produce good litters are not lucky either.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@CDXwood.....just saw your post.....the dog in front of you IS important in the decision.....especially in America!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

@cloudpump - IMO heavy backmassing and linebreeding can result in a higher risk for health issues - when I hear of a dog with some major issue - I look to see what the incidence is of any particular dog in the pedigree....every time I see a heavy dose of some male dog....just talked to a guy the other night who bought a puppy from a family I know and to whom I referred him...the dog was 19 months old - had chronic diarrhea and EPI and had died suddenly....the dog was heavily backmassed. When it is very close linebreeding then the pedigree is very tight and again, health issues are a risk.


For Cliff's question - the 2nd of course - a dog with great hips where the rest of the family is poor is the aberration in the family....I think you are more likely to get good if the close family is consistant - but in fact would not want either as a parent for a pup....

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee, I understand ....just as I understand CDWOODCDX wanting to use the OFA ex dog. 
I am not dogmatic about anything that is acceptable in the breed....for me it all depends on combinations and compliments. Most breeders today rely heavily on quantifying tests and measurements in many breed decisions. Though I do also to a degree, I also still use a lot of older techniques that have been replaced by " infometrics ". 
I guess that makes me a dinosaur and consistently lucky.....lol. That's why I wrote about " caution " .....I don't always make sense to others.?*♀


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cdwoodcox said:


> OK. Interesting. We'll this is the purpose of this thread. To better help me understand this stuff. I figured it could go either way but I thought the dog in front of you was the important thing to look at. It probably isn't too confusing but there is something to it.


for training yes , not for health or orthopedic results


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Lee, I understand ....just as I understand CDWOODCDX wanting to use the OFA ex dog.
> I am not dogmatic about anything that is acceptable in the breed....for me it all depends on combinations and compliments. Most breeders today rely heavily on quantifying tests and measurements in many breed decisions. Though I do also to a degree, I also still use a lot of older techniques that have been replaced by " infometrics ".
> I guess that makes me a dinosaur and consistently lucky.....lol. That's why I wrote about " caution " .....I don't always make sense to others.&#55358;&#56631;*♀


I can see it both ways - a female produces 3 bad hips in a litter - then to another male produces Excellent and Goods....so I'd use the 2nd litter but be very careful of the cross knowing the results of the 1st litter!

FWIW - looking at the OFA site the other day, I noted that the percentages of Excellents has risen, and Fails had fallen in the last few years...so breeders are managing to improve this aspect of the GSD


LOL LOL LOL I don't make sense to others either....I studied horses way too many years and my perspective is different than most...

Lee


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## AK_rob (Jul 13, 2020)

scarfish said:


> thanks lee. i wasn't looking for much from the breeder. she was a lady i met in my neighborhood that only bred her pet dogs once to keep 2 pups, and give the rest to friends and family. she had one left so i went to her house to meet her dogs and the other pups. never seen such friendly dogs and living in such a pampered environment. so i jumped on the pup. i knew they weren't the most thoughtful bred lines but later when i noticed that i got a little worried.


Thanks for sharing. I have the similar situation, put a deposit on a puppy with same grand father on both side... So, how is your dog ?? Is there any issue ? I am very worried about my puppy. thanks !


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It depends on the grandfather and even further back... a 2-2 is a bit close and can be problematic

Lee


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