# Returning a pup to breeder



## armauro (May 6, 2008)

After two separate consults, my 8 month old has confirmed mild hip dysplasia. His dam is the #1 dog in Germany. This proves that good parents do not eliminate this issue. My gsd who died at 3.5 was "a normal" at one year and at 3.5 years had osteoarthritis due to bad hips. 
The importer is willing to take him back and I assume refund my $ but you become attached to these guys after 4 months.
Also I have multiples of his purchase price invested in training and vet bills. This dog was sold as a top show/sch prospect and his price reflected that. What would the guy do with this dog? Should negotiate a partial refund deal if I were to keep him?
My gsd who just died was diagnosed with IBD after 4 months of ownership and the breeder would take him back but we were attached- I signed on for two years of medical case management and vet bills.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you'd have to ask the importer what he'd do with them, there's all kinds of things he could do, sell him as a pet, euthanize him, may give you a partial refund, may give you a full refund..

Did you sign a contract? What does that state? 

I know if I were attached and wanted to keep him, I'd ask for a partial refund (if the contract doesn't state otherwise), I would provide them with the vet bills, but honestly wouldn't expect much on that end again, unless your contract states otherwise.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

armauro said:


> What would the guy do with this dog?


That's what I always wonder. When a dog is returned, do they throw it into the meat grinder or sell it to a person with lower standards? I would try to get as much money back as I could for the puppy but could never return them. I could see returning the dog if it were intended to be a working dog and the owner didn't have space for a lame dog but not if it's a pet. I'd ask the breeder first what he would do with the dog, if it's re-sell him, figure out what the difference in price is and factor in the shipping cost and use that as the number you ask for to be returned.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I have had one pup diagnosed with HD. My contract calls for replacement pup with the return of the original pup.

The owners were not going to part with the pup and I offered them 1/2 the purchase price now or whenever they were ready a replacement pup as long as I was still breeding.

They chose the latter and I couldn't be happier. My less then "perfect" pup has a home where he is loved and will be taken care of. Why would I not want to place another dog with them?

And it should go without saying that he would have a home here if need be.

So ask the importer!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Maybe they could refund the money down to what you would have paid for just a pet GSD? That way you could keep him but you wouldn't have paid for the top show quality you originally intended.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

8 months old, mild hip dysplasia? Is there any chance this will tighten up a bit by two years? 

Unless you were planning to show/breed the dog, mild hip dysplasia may not show any symptoms at all. If you were planning on showing/breeding, then this is a question you should have figured out before purchasing a puppy, and something that you too will most likely have to deal with down the line with your own customers. 

I guess I would probably wait and x-ray again at two years, unless you are serious about not putting in any more time or effort in a dog that is unlikely to be able to be what you purchased him for -- top stud, schutzhund/agility champion, police dog prospect, sar prospect. In that case, I don't know. You may want to return the pup or go with a started dog -- older puppy/dog.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

I bought him at 4 months- now 8 months- how many people have their young dogs hips xrayed?? Probably no one- his parents are top gsds in Germany- I did this because my 3 odd year old had hd at 3 and had "a normal hips" at one year old per the SV.
If you check the Penn Hip website 60% of these dogs have hip issues but may not develop osteoarthritis. The breeders say best to check at 2 years old- but the orthopaedics say his age is perfect. Who would you believe? It is not that he is displaying signs of MHD I just wanted to know plus gtees are for one year.
The more I learn about the Penn Hip method as a former college science student the more I believe in their methods. They have a study out where the OFA missed many hip issues vs. this method.
I have not received their report back but saw the films we did at the Florida Vet School wherein they explained how important laxity is in causing osteoarthritis and how the pics are done with the hip joint in an extended position.
I never had intentions of breeding this dog but Sch. was a priority.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I had Karlo's hips prelim'd at 4.5 months. I was planning on SchH training w/ him and wanted to know how he looks from the inside. I think if anyone is doing any type of sport, prelim's are a good idea.
And if there is a question with them, then supplements/management will help before the damage worsens.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

I am afraid if I send him back they will have him PTS. Also he is so bonded to me and he is stunning looking. One breeder gtee I looked at did not want the dog back and would give you a dog of equal value. So I will try to negotiate his cost of $3K to 1K which seems reasonable. I now have over 7K into him with all his training- mostly- and Vet Bills for consults.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

If I were in your situation and already up to my neck with this dog, I'd go for the gusto and just pay whatever else it took to fix him down the road. (but at the same time, wring as much out of the breeder as I could to cover vet costs)
If you return him now, you're just out a ton of money, left heartbroken and for what, a tiny drop in the bucket compared to what you've already spent and will never get back?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I dunno--this is hard, especially if you wanted to do SchH with him. However, look on the bright side. You are catching mild HD at 8 months of age. A GREAT time to seriously manage the issue. Supplements can do wonder with dog, and there is a good chance he will never get worse than mild and never show any physical symptoms. 

We got our rescue girl xrayed because we were doing agility, SAR, and starting SchH and wanted a baseline. Turns out she has mild to almost moderate HD in one hip...and I never would have guessed it. We started her on glucosamine, chondroitin, , MSM, and vitamin C (and hopefully eventually an omega 3 oil, but she's sensitive to it) and are proceeding with everything we had hoped to do. 

It's a highly personal choice if you can "live" with yourself if you send him back. Some people personally can't do it, and others can. It's a gamble if this issue will ever physcially impair him or not and prevent him from doing what you want.

It does seem like you aren't having the best luck with dogs!


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

In the 80s I owned Ferraris and these gsds are the german version of the car with lots of issues. The docs at the UofFla Vet School confirm that the breed has many issues and way too much inbreeding.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

At 8 months of age, is it really possible to tell? The pup is barely beginning to grow and a lot can change. Did you do PennHip? OFA? The vet just looked at them and said mild hd?


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

The Penn Hip xrays were sent to Penn by the Uof Fla Vet School orthopaedic surgeon who did the xrays and consult. We do not have the DI # back yet but he is the second surgeon there to classify him as MHD. My local vet did pictures and I sent them up there to the docs who did my older dog- their hip transplant vet looked at those and confirmed MHD but said he should be physically evaluated consequently this second set of pics and consult.
I do not fool around with my dog health issues and always seek out the best and brightest which in Vet Med is at the schools- My dog who just died from IBD at 3.5 was treated/managed by them for 2 years.
On the issue of spplements- the School said that there is no evidence to affirm that these are of beneficial value but we do them anyway.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

IMO - when you linebreed and back mass on dogs like Jeck Noricum and Uran whose sire is FN from an FN x NZ dog you are bringing all those hips forward...hips are structural - they are a ball and joint and just as genetic as pasterns, lie of shoulder and ear set. Holding the structure together are ligaments and tendons and yes, they can tighten up the assembly as the dog gets older and matures. Lots and lots of dogs getting B and C/FN and NZ as pups tighten up and pass OFA at 2+, I know of a Danish C hipped dog going OFA Good at 7...

As far as returning vs replacement - you are dealing with a broker rather than a breeder - depending on your contract you may be able to recoup half your purchase price if he is agreeable. Many people want x-rays on 4 months old before purchasing them especially if they are show/work prospects. 

A dog with mild hips can live a full normal life...they can still do schutzhund with very careful management of jump training...as mentioned, diet, supplements and exercise are tools to keep the dog fit and he will probably be able to live a full happy life.

Lee


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Are the hips just poor due to laxity?

Or is there already signs of deformation plus your pup having issues?

If it's just laxity...................many dogs have that and can do fine with exercise and supplements, for their lifetime. Lean and fit is key.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Laxity and not completely formed sockets that cause the laxiity.
There is no osteoarthritis and no signs by him. 
Fit and lean is what the docs say.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

armauro said:


> In the 80s I owned Ferraris and these gsds are the german version of the car with lots of issues. The docs at the UofFla Vet School confirm that the breed has many issues and way too much inbreeding.


Nice 
My husband's favorite line to throw out when one of the dogs isn't feeling "up to par" is......."That sounds/looks expensive!" 

And my vet said to me that GSD's are a running joke in vet school. Apparently when a GSD comes into the office they pull the 5 page checklist out of possible issues instead of the normal 1 page! 

I like the way you phrased that  

In regards to your question, it is a very personal decision. If it were me I would probably negotiate a partial refund and continue training while monitoring the progression of the HD.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My female came from a litter ZW=78, which as you know is very good. She has *severe* HD diagnosed in 2006. 

Ah lets see I still have the x-rays from photobucket/ sorry they are scanned not digital but you can see what I mean:










It is now 2011 and, while I retired her from SAR, her main limitation at 8 is she really cannot jump into the back of my truck on her own. Other than that she still spins circles when it is time to go outside and is **** on ball chasing and has only had a few stiff days out of 5 years post diagnosis. She is kept as a pet and not subjected to the rigors of all day work or jumping and hard fast turns but she gets plenty of excercise elsewise.

I keep her lean. SHe is kept as an inside dog and has a warm place to sleep as cold seems to be the major enemy. . She is a high drive dog who is not happy unless she is chasing and playing. So be it if it shortens her life because there is no joy in treating her like a peice of china. We will know when her time comes from this but it is certainly nowhere in sight.

I figure it is part of the risk of acquiring a puppy. It is not the end of the world for this dog who may spend the rest of its life without any crippling issues from it. I can't tell you what to do but I would take that into account.....as others' who have also dealt with it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have been soooooo lucky that the gsd's I've had in over 30 years, all have had good hips and elbows. (knock on wood)


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I had this problem with the breeder I got my dog from, the Vet said he has mild HD but they would know more once he turned 2 years old. I asked the breeder what my options were and they said I could return him but they would most likely put him to sleep.  No way! He was 8-9 months old and I was completely attached to him so I kept him.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> I had this problem with the breeder I got my dog from, the Vet said he has mild HD but they would know more once he turned 2 years old. I asked the breeder what my options were and they said I could return him but they would most likely put him to sleep.  No way! He was 8-9 months old and I was completely attached to him so I kept him.


 I'm not much on "guarantees". I can sort of see a breeder's point on requiring the owner return the dog, although I suspect it generally works out this way (and is probably intended to). If the dog is still suitable for what you purchased the dog for why would you need a refund? If you buy a puppy out of OFA'd parents and the puppy grows up to have HD, how is that the breeder's fault? If you want a real guarantee against HD, buy an adult who has been OFA'd


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> I'm not much on "guarantees". I can sort of see a breeder's point on requiring the owner return the dog, although I suspect it generally works out this way (and is probably intended to). If the dog is still suitable for what you purchased the dog for why would you need a refund? If you buy a puppy out of OFA'd parents and the puppy grows up to have HD, how is that the breeder's fault? If you want a real guarantee against HD, buy an adult who has been OFA'd


I got him from a byb that didn't OFA their dogs. I didn't know any better at the time. I wasn't looking for a full refund, I was going to ask if I could get half back or if I could get another puppy at half price in the future. The breeder said no to both, said I would have to return him and he would most likely be pts and they would give me a new puppy.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

I will wait for the penn hip DI and make a decision. I paid big $$$ for a dog at 4 months from super parents. * It is not the breeders fault* but what I got is not what I was sold. That is what I am saying. I am concerned that they would have him PTS. Ethically, how can they resell him without full disclosure. But then again, this breeder/importer as I have come to find out from another forum person who had big issues is not totally above board.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

armauro said:


> I paid big $$$ for a dog at 4 months from super parents. *It is not the breeders fault* but what I got is not what I was sold. That is what I am saying.


I guess I don't quite understand that statement.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

armauro said:


> * It is not the breeders fault* but what I got is not what I was sold.


That implies that there was already some sort of contract/warranty in place, then if you are not happy with the dog, follow whatever was originally agreed on and signed.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

That is easily said by an objective person but leaves out the emotional issues of owning the animal 4 months and bonding with it. These are not cars covered by warranties and lemon laws.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

armauro said:


> That is easily said by an objective person but leaves out the emotional issues of owning the animal 4 months and bonding with it. These are not cars covered by warranties and lemon laws.


 If you wanted a better "guarantee" (more of a warranty really) you should have looked for a breeder who offered one more to your liking. It would seem you were ok with the terms when you bought the puppy.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I would never give away my best friend, no matter what physical or mental problems he had.

I have only had Rocky four months, just like you with your dog.

However, I don't plan on competing with him so maybe that is the difference....I love him whether he can jump over hurdles or not.

-----------------------------
If you are attached and bonded to him, then don't give him away. Let him be your best friend and try again later with another pup.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Regarding the warrantee it calls for the replacement of the puppy with the purchaser paying expenses to ship the dog back. He could not replace this pup because he is from Remo. Quite frankly after listening/communicating with Gretsch in an earlier thread of dealing with this importer/breeder I would not want another dog from him. She bought and was shipped a dog at 8 weeks with giardia and conjunctivitis. He took the dog back and refunded the money but she regrets sending back to him. This is a statement of the type of operation this guy runs. I am tempted to post it on this website so all should be aware- it is in the nortwest.
LET BUYER BEWARE- I screwed up.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sorry - I know of very well known, highly regarded breeders who take back dogs they KNOW have bad hips and resell them for 2 and 3K - citing dog has some training and won't give the buyer anything....and even breeders who do "replacements" never ever guarantee the same sire/dam - you take what they offer, and usually get a discount of 1/2 of the price paid for the pup that is being warranteed....Amauro - if you are looking for another pup from someone ethical - call Drachefeld....one of the nicest guys in the show world....have never heard a horror story from anyone about him, and know him personally as well - if you want an import, he can get it and if you want a nice nice show prospect, he can do that too...

Lee


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the info- I know of them- not so far from Florida-I get the gsdca magazine and see which kennels are doing what. I most likely will not send this dog back and $$ is inconsequential to me in this issue - IT IS ABOUT BUSINESS PRINCIPLES AND STANDING UP FOR WHAT YOU REPRESENT IN BLACK AND WHITE. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I have never considered returning a dog. It is, however, not uncommon among sport people. If the breeder didn't have a return clause in the contract, they would be taken advantage of. I'm on my second dog from a breeder that I respect. The dog is guaranteed for two years. I can return her for any reason and get my money refunded. It is very doubtful that I will do that.
I have purchased a dog from another person in the past. The dog had a guarantee of good hips at 2 yo. I would not have to return the dog for the guarantee to be valid. She had one bad hip and the breeder screwed up the breeding so the dog wasn't even registered. I have an inch thick folder of email and snail mail correspondence regarding the dog. I could have probably won in small claims court but that would have entailed taking at least one day off of work (the breeder was out of state - small claims cases can be rescheduled at the request of either party if the judge agrees) AND I would have been saddled with collecting from the woman. I didn't get a dime back.
So - at least your breeder/broker is willing to honor his guarantee (although you do not like the guarantee). I'd say that would certainly be worth something. Have the guts to complain about the terms of sale at the time of sale. It makes no sense to call the person disreputable when they are willing to honor their guarantee.

PS If your "other" source of info on the breeder/broker is PDB, consider the source.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I second Lee's recommendation of Drachefeld, Charlie is super nice and has a great network.


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

Mild displasia is easy to manage with meds like Zubrin. My last GSD has mild displasia in one hip and she lasted 10 years with only needing meds during cold/winter days. You could file a complaint with the better business bureau. That usually helps and they may give you some $ back.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the info and help- not to rub it in but we follow summer year round so my only issue is when it gets too hot the dogs stay in the ac.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you contract does not say anything about a cash return, then you cannot get a cash return, and you should not file a claim with the BBB in order to get something that you are not entitled to.

If the dog was x-rayed at four months, and passed the prelims, and at eight months failed, how is it that you did not get what you purchased? It is a living breathing creature and may have a medical problem.

If the dog was not x-rayed at four months, and you bought it, and it failed prelims at eight months, how is it that you did not get what you purchased?

I am sorry, but puppies are always a risk. If you want to ensure that hips and elbows are good, you may have to purchase an adult with certification in place. 

I think that unless your contract offers cash, trying to push someone to refund cash is unethical on your part. Why is it that only breeders should be ethical? What guarantees to purchasers provide? It is not a car, it is alive, and there really is only one guarantee, and that is barring injury/death, your dog WILL have medical problems, for which he will either die or require euthanasia. We all want that to be at age 12-14, but nature does not always work that way.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Pardon my ignorance and I am not putting gasoline on any fires BUT as a newbie GSD owner ( whose dog is a "BYB" ) doesn't the fact that top pedigree pups who have super duper parents are showing up with hip issues make a bit of a mockery about the whole breeding process / arguments ????


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## GSD Momma (Dec 28, 2010)

My breeder indicated that even mild displasia would immediately put a nix in ever breeding that line again. So they definitely want to know and they understand that if its mild i would not want to return the dog. A good reputable breeder should at least accept a little responsibility. Obviously loving this animal, the owner will not want to return it the breeder per the agreement so I think it's reasonable for the breeder to offer some $ back. I think BBB is a fair way to go in that case. It may be futile with the guarantee terms, but I would still report it as a consumer if I was unsatisfied with the services received. That IS what BBB is for, after all.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

In response to a couple of the above comments:

NO breeder here intentionally breeds expecting bad hips!!!!!!!!! Or wants them. Breeding is a matter of complementing and compensatory factors. Everyone weighs risk differently!!! Buyers in Europe accept the fact that hips are a risk in every single litter bred! They do not prioritize hips as strongly as we do IMO. If the dog has strong desirable qualities, they do a breeding. Dogs are more routinely kennel kept and not primarily companion animals, and the Europeans are much more complacent when they get a dog with HD - many quietly euthanize dogs who are x-rayed prior to 1 year and thus the dog does not "count" in the scheme of ZW ratings. I spent some time with a long time judge and his wife a few years ago, I was told of litters where 3/4 were sent to "doggy heaven" at 10 months when x-rayed....I asked why they just did not give the affected pups to pet homes and they dismissed this idea as they would not give a 'defective' dog to someone who would incur grief adn expense caring for it. A friend imported a pup from a well know German male shortly thereafter - the same male the judge had a litter from that 3/4 of the pups had HD - and a year later - same thing. The sire has a ZW of 80ish. 

If you quit breeding every dog who produced a pup with HD, whose littermates produced a dog with HD - the breed would come to a halt! And even with 3 - 4 generations of clear hips, a dog having bad hip structure from 6 or 7 generations back can pop up at any time and you have dogs with HD again. Backmassing and line breeding on dogs with NZ or FN to me means that you are loading the dice for the poor qualities of those dogs as well as the good ones you are hoping to get.

We all look at pedigrees and gather antedoctal information about production. We assess the risk and decide whether we are comfortable with the risk....a female can produce HD with one male and Excellents with another. A male who has an iffy production wtih 2 or 3 females can produce Excellent with another...it is just not an easy thing to predict.

I hate the word guarantee...I warranty pups as there are no absolute guarantees. Anyone who buys a GSD should be aware of the possibility of HD and and accept responsibility for the decision to buy a puppy and accept that there IS a risk!!! Suing a breeder, turning them into the BBB is really a course of action that is not reasonable or fair IMO, other than someone not honoring a contract. If you have a warranty then deal with the terms of that contract, if you don't have a contract - then there is no recourse, you bought the pup and whatever happens is a risk you have accepted.

Lee


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Do understand that HD is a complex inheritance and it is, in part, a statistics game. You really CANT guarantee that a puppy will not develop it or that a puppy will not become ill with something else. 

All you can gurantee is your respsonse vis a vis what happens "if" and do what you can in your breeding program to increase your chances of not producing dysplastic dogs. So you buy a puppy you should be clear from the beginning...."what are the evaluation criteria" "what will you do if?" etc etc. 

Most of what people think of when they hear the word is dogs so crippled they can hardly walk, but that is not the case with many many cases of HD. For many you can only tell on serious orthopedic evaluation. 

Really, the only way you can guarantee good hips is to buy a young adult who has been cleared........that is what most people who buy dogs for work do. It does cost a lot more but prevents the kind of issue going on now......

--------

Edit - ah I was typing while Lee was posting....thanks for your additional insights about ZW/and stuff going on in Europe etc.....I had heard that they just don't do warranties over there.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LOL - great minds think alike! LOL

I sold a 4 or 5 month old pup a couple of years ago...the buyer insisted on x-raying the pup before she paid for him. Hips were fine. Dog contracted Canine Distemper at 18 months and was euthanized at 22...devastating for all of us. Yes, distemper was definitively diagnosed by Univ of PA Vet School, Neurologist, Board certified staff veterinarian. You can't guarantee anything.......life has too many variables.

Lee


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

I agree with Selzer- there is a contract between buyer and seller, and while it would be " nice" if the breeder offered some money back because this dog can't accomplish what the buyer wants, the seller has done nothing to violate the contract. Does the OP think the breeder knowingly sent a pup with bad hips? Why would anyone contact the BBB in this case? 
I feel for the OP. He is disappointed that he won't be able to accomplish what he was hoping to with this pup and now has to worry about what kind of future his pup has in store health wise.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Not sure what he was hoping to accomplish-but mild HD is not the end of the world. It just means the dog can not be bred-it can engage in activities-there may even be the possibility that if you x-ray at 2 it will pass OFA


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## Zeusismydog (Aug 23, 2001)

I am really sorry for the OP. I know how hard it is to have a dog with HD, especially if you have plans for the puppy and now you can't do it. That said I wouldn't return the pup. I would see what you could get back out of them, as you shouldn't have to pay big bucks for a pet puppy. I have no idea what/if you signed a contract and what it said, but imho there should have been a clause that delt with this kind of thing.

What ever you do good luck.


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