# Can you ever work your own dog on the sleeve?



## Alwaysaworkingdog

Something that has always intrigued me is the role of the handler vs. the role of the helper in IPO. Now handlers often train their own dog from an early age onward, in the first stages of bite work. I've read that this is ok. Teaching your dog the mechanics of biting is analogous to a father teaching his son to box - the father can teach his son all the technique he needs to know to win a fight, but can never stress the son, in the way a real opponent could. 

So to what extent can a handler teach his dog the mechanics of bite work? Does this/should this ever stop after formal training with a helper has commenced? Should it ever be done in the first place? How does this differ from playing tug with your dog? And can a handler ever teach his dog how to hit a sleeve? or is this always better left to a helper? Do you guys have any experiences of your own with regard to training your own dog in prey, on your own or with an informal helper?

Any responses would be greatly appreciated.


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## Baillif

Let someone with experience work the dog. There is a reason ellis never did a video with leerburg covering that kind of stuff. There are aspects to it and intricacies that just need to be learned by doing while under supervision by an expert. If the handler in question knew exactly what he was doing he could teach the mechanics just fine but would still want people the dog wasn't familiar with to work the dog. 

I know it's tempting to throw a sleeve on and egg your pup on, but making sure he learns it right the first time avoids a ton of grief going back trying to fix bad habits that would creep up from training mistakes.

Playing tug under the Ellis system is a reward based game so you don't worry about bite technique. The end goal is that the dog really really wants to play tug with you, outs when told, and brings it directly back to you when it wins the tug. It has nothing to do with sleeve work.


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## DaniFani

The argument against this that i have heard is creating a lot of confusion and possible conflict with the dog. I have been told about two or three pretty vicious handler bites from dogs whose handlers back-tied them and worked them on the sleeve. I'd imagine it's quite confusing for the dog..."okay, now I bite you and you are bad guy so we fight" and then "okay, now you're my handler and I'm not supposed to fight you"....I'm sure their are dogs that can handle that...but I wouldn't want to take the chance. There is a reason most decoys won't work their own dogs...it can create huge conflict and confusion...at least that was the most convincing argument against it that I've heard. I am talking about bitework beyond playing/tug work.....I'm talking sleeve and pressure/fight with the decoy.


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## Baillif

Right you wouldn't want to work your own dog in defense, prey would be fine it's just a rough game then.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

Baillif said:


> Let someone with experience work the dog. There is a reason ellis never did a video with leerburg covering that kind of stuff. There are aspects to it and intricacies that just need to be learned by doing while under supervision by an expert. If the handler in question knew exactly what he was doing he could teach the mechanics just fine but would still want people the dog wasn't familiar with to work the dog.
> 
> I know it's tempting to throw a sleeve on and egg your pup on, but making sure he learns it right the first time avoids a ton of grief going back trying to fix bad habits that would creep up from training mistakes.
> 
> Playing tug under the Ellis system is a reward based game so you don't worry about bite technique. The end goal is that the dog really really wants to play tug with you, outs when told, and brings it directly back to you when it wins the tug. It has nothing to do with sleeve work.


On the contrary, here's two of them, that I own myself:

Leerburg | The Foundation of Puppy Bite Work DVD

Leerburg | Teaching Protection Skills without a Decoy

I prefer the latter. I juts wanted some opinions from people within the sport and more specifically relating to the sleeve.

_The owner can take his dog through the prey drive training to the point where the dog has learned many of the moves (or skills) he needs to do bite work. In fact, if the trainer’s neighbor would come over some day and see the dog biting the sleeve on the handler’s arm, even though it was in prey, the neighbor would think that the dog was attacking his handler, when in fact the dog is just playing an advanced game of tug of war with his handler._
_When the handler needs to be worked in defense, he is going to have to find an experienced helper to work his dog. There is no way around this. We will give you some ideas in our video of how to do a limited amount of defense work without a skilled helper, but the reality is that there is only so much that can be done before you need someone with experience. I will say this: For personal protection work, if all of the foundation work is done properly, the amount of additional help that is required is much less. - Ed Frawley_


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

DaniFani said:


> The argument against this that i have heard is creating a lot of confusion and possible conflict with the dog. I have been told about two or three pretty vicious handler bites from dogs whose handlers back-tied them and worked them on the sleeve. I'd imagine it's quite confusing for the dog..."okay, now I bite you and you are bad guy so we fight" and then "okay, now you're my handler and I'm not supposed to fight you"....I'm sure their are dogs that can handle that...but I wouldn't want to take the chance. There is a reason most decoys won't work their own dogs...it can create huge conflict and confusion...at least that was the most convincing argument against it that I've heard. I am talking about bitework beyond playing/tug work.....I'm talking sleeve and pressure/fight with the decoy.


Please read my post carefully before commenting to avoid confusion. Thankyou. Again, I would prefer answers from people in the sport, if possible.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

Sorry guys, this is the IPO forum, so I was just expecting people from within the sport, but I suppose there aren't too many of them around. I appreciate your comments but they aren't addressing anything and I don't need clarification on the drives that a dog is working in. MY QUESTION RELATES SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY TO *PREY DRIVE. *


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## DaniFani

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Something that has always intrigued me is the role of the handler vs. the role of the helper in IPO. Now handlers often train their own dog from an early age onward, in the first stages of bite work. I've read that this is ok. Teaching your dog the mechanics of biting is analogous to a father teaching his son to box - the father can teach his son all the technique he needs to know to win a fight, but can never stress the son, in the way a real opponent could.*I think human comparisons like this for bitework are silly. You can teach the mechanics, but even the mechanics need to be reinforced during the bitework on a helper. I have seen lots of dogs come out and play tug AWESOME with their handler...ask them to do that with someone else (the helper) and the stress of the stranger alone causes the dog to forget all the mechanics it was taught...so yeah...you can teach and reinforce all you want, but you can't and shouldn't apply the pressure to the dog that a helper can....if that makes sense.*
> 
> So to what extent can a handler teach his dog the mechanics of bite work? *I would say you can teach proper gripping behavior, encourage calm carries, cradling, and work on barking (by backtieing the dog, putting the tug on a line, and only moving it when you get a few strong barks....giving a grip when you get a few barks you really like....*Does this/should this ever stop after formal training with a helper has commenced? *I never stop playing tug and working on calm carries and working on cradling while the dog has a good grip, to ensure there is never conflict when I enter the scenario...even once formal bitework training has begun.*Should it ever be done in the first place? *What?? Working in prey with a tug?*How does this differ from playing tug with your dog?*I think they are one in the same....sometimes I will back tie my dogs, tease with the tug...let them get grips....cradle....out...and begin again....* And can a handler ever teach his dog how to hit a sleeve?*I guess the handler could...over prey and in a "game" mindset with little pressure like you said* or is this always better left to a helper?*I personally think anything with an adult sleeve should be left to the helper...tugs, wedges, etc... could be used by handler during prey work to work on grip* Do you guys have any experiences of your own with regard to training your own dog in prey, on your own or with an informal helper?*Any tug work I do is always in prey, I may play a little rough, running my hands over the top of the dog's head, down it's side, moving it with my feet, making sure the dog is maintaining the grip the whole time by keeping tension in the tug...etc...but it's all in prey....I never make myself a threat....and I always let my dogs win the tug in the end...unless I am trying to build up frustration. I leave the threats, stick hits, whip, and pressure to the helper/decoy and am a support for my dog when need to be or told to be.*
> 
> Any responses would be greatly appreciated.


Guess the part in red was pointless....you remind me of another bloke we used to have around here from Australia....

Hopefully some more people will chime in, I've only been at the sport for a year...but I'm already on my third dog lol....this is a topic that came up in our IPO club recently when a friend in Colorado had a dog bite bad and he works his own dogs on the sleeve all the time. We were talking about how much is too much...and whether it should be done at all...common thought seemed to be it was a bad idea to do anything more than work in prey with the tug/wedge and always have it be a rough game...no pressure...and no sleeve.

Edit: I guess the way you worded this was a little weird?? As both of us are having a hard time delineating what you are asking. Are you asking if you can work a dog in prey over the sleeve alone, yourself? I guess you could do all the things I listed with the tug, but with the sleeve. I've not seen it done really, because the sleeve doesn't come out until the dog can handle pressure with the lower level "sleeves" and wedges, because as the object being bite gets tougher, the pressure levels are going up somewhat as well....but I guess you could use the sleeve in a "tug fashion"...is that what you are looking for?? I am honestly trying to help and learn a little through helping...no need to be hostile...I would assume you could advance your dog from tug, to wedge, to lower level sleeves, and eventually up to a trial sleeve, doing everything I listed, but just with the sleeve. We have a trainer that has a sleeve with a tie on it so he can toss it like a tug and pull it up and on for a grip...don't see why you couldn't do that??


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## DaniFani

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> Please read my post carefully before commenting to avoid confusion. Thankyou. Again, I would prefer answers from people in the sport, if possible.


Sorry, my eyes went immediately to the "mechanics of bitework" and I added pressure as part of learning the mechanics and commented accordingly...I attempted to answer your questions again, in reference to prey only....I have a little over a year of experience in the sport...so that's where I'm coming from. There are others here that have more, hopefully they'll chime in. There is a forum called workingdogforum.com that is specifically geared towards training/trialing/real world work....there is a lot more traffic there of people with lots and lots of knowledge and experience. There are people here who are experienced, but you might get more responses and thoughts on the working forum too.


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## Baillif

Ellis didn't take part in either of those two vids those were all frawley.


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## Baillif

Or not, mistook those for two Frawley did under the same name. In any case good luck. DVDs are a perfectly good substitute for experience and hands on expertise.


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## Uniballer

I started working dogs (as a helper) in the mid 90's, and did my first helper work in a club trial in '96.

I've always done puppy stuff with the tug and so on, and used it for obedience later. I've worked some of my own dogs on the sleeve. Taught basic grip work, hold and bark, etc. Even had one that I could push pretty hard (but don't recommend that and don't generally do that, but it was OK for him). Probably wouldn't do it at all if I had an experienced training helper multiple times per week.


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## onyx'girl

DaniFani said:


> Guess the part in red was pointless....you remind me of another bloke we used to have around here from Australia....
> *
> Hopefully some more people will chime in, I've only been at the sport for a year...but I'm already on my third dog lol....t*his is a topic that came up in our IPO club recently when a friend in Colorado had a dog bite bad and he works his own dogs on the sleeve all the time. We were talking about how much is too much...and whether it should be done at all...common thought seemed to be it was a bad idea to do anything more than work in prey with the tug/wedge and always have it be a rough game...no pressure...and no sleeve.


3rd dog in a year?


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## Chris Wild

It depends entirely on how the handler wants the dog to view protection work... as nothing but a rough and tumble game of tug-o-war or from a more serious standpoint where the full range of drives is utilized and tested.

If as a game, the handler can do the sleeve work. If from a more serious standpoint, the handler cannot. The former can get you through an IPO trial these days, but of course is far from ideal or correct given what IPO is supposed to be about and it's use as a test of breeding suitability.


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## ayoitzrimz

I work my dog in protections sometimes. But, I didn't when he was still learning the mechanics and what bitework is. Until he started showing clear-headedness and ability to turn on aggression and switch to prey, obedience, aggression without much conflict.

Some background: I am a certified trial helper, and work other dogs at our club so I'm not a 20+ years helper but I am certainly capable of proper helper work - that is a requirement for not ****ing your own dog up.

I personally didn't start to work my own dog in protection until AFTER we covered the fundamentals of bite work, and he was clear and level headed able to change drives at will. In other words, the work was VERY CLEAR in his head. At that point we really started working on obedience and control and with him, it's very clear that he takes bite work seriously on another helper, but when I worked him it was all in prey. Teasing, misses, etc, AND mechanics of the drills - waiting for the escape, outing, clean H&B etc.

I never pushed him into defense, that's just nonsense to do with your own dog and I very much doubt my dog would take it seriously without me actually hurting him - more nonsense. So what I'm trying to say is I did OBEDIENCE in bite work when working my own dog and not much else. The mechanics of the drills, drive, catches, teaching him targeting, etc.

I wouldn't do much else, and I wouldn't work my own dog while he is still learning what bite work is and what he is doing there. 

Just my 2 cents, hope it makes sense


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## ayoitzrimz

Chris Wild said:


> It depends entirely on how the handler wants the dog to view protection work... as nothing but a rough and tumble game of tug-o-war or from a more serious standpoint where the full range of drives is utilized and tested.
> 
> If as a game, the handler can do the sleeve work. If from a more serious standpoint, the handler cannot. The former can get you through an IPO trial these days, but of course is far from ideal or correct given what IPO is supposed to be about and it's use as a test of breeding suitability.


I hear you there, but a clear headed dog can work on a tug and show totally different behavior whether the helper is the one presenting the tug and whether the handler is. I think the point is that everyone involved should be experienced enough and have a goal in things they do.


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## mycobraracr

Chris Wild said:


> It depends entirely on how the handler wants the dog to view protection work... as nothing but a rough and tumble game of tug-o-war or from a more serious standpoint where the full range of drives is utilized and tested.
> 
> If as a game, the handler can do the sleeve work. If from a more serious standpoint, the handler cannot. The former can get you through an IPO trial these days, but of course is far from ideal or correct given what IPO is supposed to be about and it's use as a test of breeding suitability.


 

This^^^ Even then if you're not experienced then I wouldn't risk it. It's very easy to create problems you didn't even realize you were creating. 

If you want to work grips and targeting with your dog, you can do that with a wedge/pillow and even a flirt pole.


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## boomer11

Lol weren't you the one who didn't even know how to reward and release your dog properly from commands? Now you suddenly want experts to chime in on sleeve work? Pretty big jump up


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## ayoitzrimz

boomer11 said:


> Lol weren't you the one who didn't even know how to reward and release your dog properly from commands? Now you suddenly want experts to chime in on sleeve work? Pretty big jump up


A person has a right to ask questions dude, regardless of their experience level. If it bothers you, feel free to ignore this thread.


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## Chris Wild

ayoitzrimz said:


> I hear you there, but a clear headed dog can work on a tug and show totally different behavior whether the helper is the one presenting the tug and whether the handler is. I think the point is that everyone involved should be experienced enough and have a goal in things they do.


Once the dog is well developed in protection and IF there are specific exercises that the handler can/should work on and IF the handler has the skills, I would agree this could work out fine in some cases. More often than not when people ask "can I work my own dog" the answer to at least one of those, if not all of those, questions is no.

This should not be done in foundation training unless as I said, the handler's only goal is to play at protection as a game.


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## boomer11

ayoitzrimz said:


> I think the point is that everyone involved should be experienced enough and have a goal in things they do.


Yeah so you think a person who was confused on how to move from a sit to a down to another command and when to reward is going to have enough experience? I didn't say don't ask questions. Just said pretty big jump up


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## holland

boomer11 said:


> Lol weren't you the one who didn't even know how to reward and release your dog properly from commands? Now you suddenly want experts to chime in on sleeve work? Pretty big jump up


He took the time to reply to your thread  and he was likely wanting to help I do think you can learn from people who are new to the sport-if you are wanting to learn If you only want certain people to reply e-mail Frawley-he will likely respond


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## ayoitzrimz

Chris Wild said:


> Once the dog is well developed in protection and IF there are specific exercises that the handler can/should work on and IF the handler has the skills, I would agree this could work out fine in some cases. More often than not when people ask "can I work my own dog" the answer to at least one of those, if not all of those, questions is no.
> 
> This should not be done in foundation training unless as I said, the handler's only goal is to play at protection as a game.


Yea, I in my humble opinion agree with all of that. So looks like we are in agreement, you probably have had more experience than me and are more cautious


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## Chris Wild

I think it's very normal for newcomers to IPO, or any other sport for that matter, to inquire into what work they can do on their own. And it's not at all an unusual question for someone to ask if they can work their own dog in protection. Even when sometimes the answer is a resounding "NO" at least the person is putting the effort into learning what s/he can and is willing to put in work outside of formal club training. They just need guidance with regard to what is and is not ok for the handler to work on. No one was born knowing this stuff, and truly until someone has a decent understanding of protection work, which most newcomers will not have yet, they aren't going to be able to fully understand the ramifications. So it's a good question to ask, and certainly better to ask the question than to assume it's ok and just start doing sleeve work.


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## DaniFani

Chris Wild said:


> Once the dog is well developed in protection and IF there are specific exercises that the handler can/should work on and IF the handler has the skills, I would agree this could work out fine in some cases. More often than not when people ask "can I work my own dog" the answer to at least one of those, if not all of those, questions is no.
> 
> This should not be done in foundation training unless as I said, the handler's only goal is to play at protection as a game.


So you would advise against working the dog with a sleeve, even if you make sure to keep it always in prey?? I understand wanting the dog to not believe it's all a game. What in your opinion, causes this? Is it the association with the sleeve and play work? Even if a helper puts the sleeve on and pushes the dog into a little defense (while the handler is using the sleeve in play at home), you think that if the dog has "played" a lot with the handler and the sleeve, it won't take protection as serious? I'm just trying to understand what about playing with the sleeve causes the dog to not take it seriously, regardless of who is wearing the sleeve....hope that makes sense, just trying to learn a little something.

And Onyx, yes....I lost my GSD at a year and a half (working him from 4 months until the week he passed...we got really far in tracking, my favorite, and decently far in obedience....protection, he made it to a back up lunge and grip, but he really wasn't as cut out for protection. Didn't have the nerves. I am currently working my corgi towards a BH(although we might end up only doing a rally novice...I just like working bigger dogs) and a one year old rottie in all three, obedience, protection, and tracking (I'm finally to the point I was with the shepherd in all three). My club does tracking a little non-traditionally. No sent pads, puppy learns to track in each footstep from day one, and articles are taught with zero pressure/compulsion. I've now seen it work on several dogs from teen dogs to 98/99 in TR 1 and TR 2...it's a pretty cool method and why I love tracking so much...I could track any day, every day. :-D


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## Chris Wild

Playing with the sleeve makes the sleeve a huge prey attraction and a play object to the dog. This can very much work against a helper trying to work the dog in a more serious fashion. At best, it creates drive conflict and confusion in the dog where the helper may say "serious" but the sleeve says "prey game" and the dog is getting mixed messages and is unsure how to respond properly. At worst it can completely undermine what the helper is trying to accomplish. Helpers work their butts off and aren't going to appreciate a handler undoing their work at home. 

As I said, there are some very few situations where the handler doing sleeve work with the dog might be a good idea. But really if it is a good dog and a good helper, this is not necessary. And it certainly isn't something that a novice should be engaging in. I suppose if someone only wants a prey-game dog in protection, there is no harm. And if someone wants to do IPO but has no access to a real helper than this may be the only option available. But it is far from ideal and just plain doesn't have a role in good, solid, true to what it's supposed to be about IPO training.


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## Uniballer

DaniFani said:


> Even if a helper puts the sleeve on and pushes the dog into a little defense (while the handler is using the sleeve in play at home), you think that if the dog has "played" a lot with the handler and the sleeve, it won't take protection as serious?


This can certainly happen. Dogs associate the way they feel (i.e. drive they are in, how hard they are working, etc.) with the reward we give them. Working them too soft too many times can make them feel they don't have to do it "right".

If I feel I need to work my own dog then I have a goal in mind, and that includes the picture I expect to see from the dog. If I am not getting that picture right away then I know I should stop and get somebody else to work the dog. I can't imagine this working at all for someone without the right experience.


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## Chris Wild

Uniballer said:


> If I feel I need to work my own dog then I have a goal in mind, and that includes the picture I expect to see from the dog.


Excellent way to phrase it!


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## DaniFani

Chris Wild said:


> *Playing with the sleeve makes the sleeve a huge prey attraction and a play object to the dog. This can very much work against a helper trying to work the dog in a more serious fashion. At best, it creates drive conflict and confusion in the dog where the helper may say "serious" but the sleeve says "prey game" and the dog is getting mixed messages and is unsure how to respond properly.* At worst it can completely undermine what the helper is trying to accomplish. Helpers work their butts off and aren't going to appreciate a handler undoing their work at home.
> 
> As I said, there are some very few situations where the handler doing sleeve work with the dog might be a good idea. But really if it is a good dog and a good helper, this is not necessary. And it certainly isn't something that a novice should be engaging in. I suppose if someone only wants a prey-game dog in protection, there is no harm. And if someone wants to do IPO but has no access to a real helper than this may be the only option available. But it is far from ideal and just plain doesn't have a role in good, solid, true to what it's supposed to be about IPO training.


Thanks, this is what I was trying to get at/understand. Makes complete sense. Like I said, I have heard all the reasons for not working the dog in defense, but had never really talked about working your own dog in only prey with the sleeve. These reasons make complete sense. I would also think that it would be especially concerning for a newer handler to do this because they probably don't know a whole heck of a lot and may push the dog into defense without even knowing it...and start that confusion/conflict ball rolling....the whole thing just sounds like playing with fire. If I didn't have access to a really good trainer/decoy/club I would probably find another, closer, venue for my dog and I....I wouldn't want to create unfixable problems or cause my dog to live in conflict/confusion.


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## Chris Wild

The problem with a newbie doing this isn't just that they might push the dog into defense. While that might happen, it probably isn't very likely. There aren't a lot of experienced helpers that can really tap defense in a dog without resorting to special equipment/scenarios to do so (tables, whips, etc..) It's really unlikely that an owner is going to push his own dog into defense *accidentally*. Not if the dog has sound nerves. 

But as I said, there really isn't any good reason for a novice to be doing this. An experienced person looking for a certain "picture" as Uniballer phrased it, and capable of achieving that, maybe. But not a novice. The novice doesn't even know what the picture looks like. This will be just playing a game, which is pointless and may undermine the work of a real helper. The novice also isn't going to even know what sort of behaviors to be working on and encouraging and may create bad habits in the dog by rewarding at the wrong time for the wrong behavior that then again the real helper has to go in and fix.


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## DaniFani

Chris Wild said:


> The problem with a newbie doing this isn't just that they might push the dog into defense. While that might happen, it probably isn't very likely. There aren't a lot of experienced helpers that can really tap defense in a dog without resorting to special equipment/scenarios to do so (tables, whips, etc..) It's really unlikely that an owner is going to push his own dog into defense *accidentally*. Not if the dog has sound nerves.
> 
> But as I said, there really isn't any good reason for a novice to be doing this. An experienced person looking for a certain "picture" as Uniballer phrased it, and capable of achieving that, maybe. But not a novice. The novice doesn't even know what the picture looks like. This will be just playing a game, which is pointless and may undermine the work of a real helper. The novice also isn't going to even know what sort of behaviors to be working on and encouraging and may create bad habits in the dog by rewarding at the wrong time for the wrong behavior that then again the real helper has to go in and fix.


Gotchya.


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## mycobraracr

Chris Wild said:


> The problem with a newbie doing this isn't just that they might push the dog into defense. While that might happen, it probably isn't very likely. There aren't a lot of experienced helpers that can really tap defense in a dog without resorting to special equipment/scenarios to do so (tables, whips, etc..) It's really unlikely that an owner is going to push his own dog into defense *accidentally*. Not if the dog has sound nerves.


 
For one of my decoy certifications, I had to take multiple dogs and push them into defense using just me. I was in regular clothes, no protection equipment anywhere and we were not on the training field. The handler and dog were just sitting there and the handler couldn't say anything to the dog. I had to pressure the dog with out yelling and could only make very little movement. It was all mental games. That wore me out more than catching dogs all day. I'm am far from the best at it. "Pressure" was actually my lowest score on my certification. I scored high 90's on everything except pressure was mid 80's.


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## hunterisgreat

If you're an experienced helper AND the dog has certain qualities you can do the helper work on your own dog. I've done most of the work on mine. One dog I can work with pressure and one dog I work only in prey. This is because the latter dog is much more "in tune" to me and pressure would be at the detriment of our personal bond and relationship. The former dog would no doubt bite me "for real" when I'm doing the helper work, but it's not personal at all, "just business"

That being said, I generally discourage most of my handlers from doing anything with there dogs as they usually cause problems in the work I have to spend time fixing rather than actually progressing.


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## hunterisgreat

mycobraracr said:


> For one of my decoy certifications, I had to take multiple dogs and push them into defense using just me. I was in regular clothes, no protection equipment anywhere and we were not on the training field. The handler and dog were just sitting there and the handler couldn't say anything to the dog. I had to pressure the dog with out yelling and could only make very little movement. It was all mental games. That wore me out more than catching dogs all day. I'm am far from the best at it. "Pressure" was actually my lowest score on my certification. I scored high 90's on everything except pressure was mid 80's.


That's pretty cool. What certification is this?


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## mycobraracr

hunterisgreat said:


> That's pretty cool. What certification is this?



It was my SDA certification. I know at least on the west coast, if you can't put the heat on they won't cert you. Doesn't matter how good you are at everything else. Like I said pressure is my weak link. Honestly I don't even think I deserved the 85 score they gave me. I want to get to a point where I can run dogs with just my ugly face haha. 


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## Merciel

mycobraracr said:


> For one of my decoy certifications, I had to take multiple dogs and push them into defense using just me. I was in regular clothes, no protection equipment anywhere and we were not on the training field. The handler and dog were just sitting there and the handler couldn't say anything to the dog. I had to pressure the dog with out yelling and could only make very little movement. It was all mental games.


That is a really interesting exercise. How'd you do it?

I'm imagining lots of direct stares, frontal confrontation/looming postures (up on your toes, shoulders pushed forward), spatial pressure/body blocking, and slow forward movement when the dog is looking at you plus skittery, unpredictable fast movements when the dog starts looking away.

That's a total guess, though, and since I have no experience of helperwork whatsoever, what I'm actually basing it on is random idiots who try to pet my dogs on the street (without asking, of course), do ALL of those things, and are shocked, shocked! when the dogs flip out and go all barky-lungy-growly at them.

So I have no idea whether my guess even remotely accurate, but if by some amazing chance it is, heeey, there's something you can learn from people who know absolutely nothing about dogs at all.


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## Liesje

mycobraracr said:


> It was my SDA certification. I know at least on the west coast, if you can't put the heat on they won't cert you. Doesn't matter how good you are at everything else. Like I said pressure is my weak link. Honestly I don't even think I deserved the 85 score they gave me. I want to get to a point where I can run dogs with just my ugly face haha.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I went to one of those (not as a decoy, no way! but they used my dog on like 7 different people) and only half the people trying out got certified at the lowest level (PA or P1 I guess?). It was really interesting, and not being SchH it was fun to see them pull out sleeves and see how (or if) the demo dogs changed gears between SchH style protection and SDA. One of the SchH3 dogs completely missed an attack from the decoy because he was barking at a pile of sleeves.


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## mycobraracr

Merciel said:


> That is a really interesting exercise. How'd you do it?


Everyone has there own way. For me I think of something that really ticks me off, shoulders up and back, head tilt's, eyes big, nostrils flared, muscles tense, and I change my breathing as well. Think of two guys about to get into a bar fight. When I can get it right, I can make myself so mad I even get my own adrenalin going like I'm about to kill someone. I wasn't allowed to make movements anywhere. Maybe a half step but that was about it. Most people don't seem to realize that pressure comes from within the person. It's not all about equipment or yelling. Yes we do that too but that just helps. 


Liesje- That's one of the reasons I love SDA so much. They try and make it about the man not the equipment. The first day I worked a dog at my SDA group, I slipped the sleeve just like I would do at my old IPO club once the dog was on the bite, the dog spit the sleeve and bit my arm. I learned real fast you don't do that with the majority of SDA dogs. I don't slip now until the handler has complete control of the dog.


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## Uniballer

mycobraracr said:


> For one of my decoy certifications, I had to take multiple dogs and push them into defense using just me.


A teaching helper who taught me a lot when I was starting out had me do almost exactly the same thing. Partly it was to make sure I understood the drives and how to tap them, but I think it was also showing me that I could do it.


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## mycobraracr

Uniballer said:


> A teaching helper who taught me a lot when I was starting out had me do almost exactly the same thing. Partly it was to make sure I understood the drives and how to tap them, but I think it was also showing me that I could do it.


When I first started, I did a similar drill with one of my decoy mentors. The difference then was all the dogs we used where on the sharp side so it was easy. It was back when I was in an IPO group. It was great for learning, but then working dogs with a higher threshold makes it sooo much harder. It's a fun drill. Teaches you a lot!


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## hunterisgreat

Merciel said:


> That is a really interesting exercise. How'd you do it?
> 
> I'm imagining lots of direct stares, frontal confrontation/looming postures (up on your toes, shoulders pushed forward), spatial pressure/body blocking, and slow forward movement when the dog is looking at you plus skittery, unpredictable fast movements when the dog starts looking away.
> 
> That's a total guess, though, and since I have no experience of helperwork whatsoever, what I'm actually basing it on is random idiots who try to pet my dogs on the street (without asking, of course), do ALL of those things, and are shocked, shocked! when the dogs flip out and go all barky-lungy-growly at them.
> 
> So I have no idea whether my guess even remotely accurate, but if by some amazing chance it is, heeey, there's something you can learn from people who know absolutely nothing about dogs at all.


For a human it's far more a mental exercise than a physical one... We are woefully out of touch with body language. When a person tries to physically intimidate its laughably bad. When they mentally posture it's quasi believable. If you don't "ge the vibe" that the helper is pissed at the dog, then the helper isn't convincing the dog either. I tell knew helpers to visualize themselves about to get in a bar brawl. The tension before a fight like that is the tension the helper should recreate when working a mature dog


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## Merciel

Huh, that is so interesting.

It makes sense, I just hadn't thought about it that way. Method acting: works for dogs too. 

And yeah I'm not surprised people tend to be bad at intentionally posturing their bodies in the right way to achieve the effect they want. Like I said, the most exaggerated reactions I've seen from my dogs came in response to people who were TRYING to be friendly and pet them... so kind of the exact opposite of what you guys are trying to do, but same effect in terms of not exactly provoking the desired response!


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## hunterisgreat

Merciel said:


> Huh, that is so interesting.
> 
> It makes sense, I just hadn't thought about it that way. Method acting: works for dogs too.
> 
> And yeah I'm not surprised people tend to be bad at intentionally posturing their bodies in the right way to achieve the effect they want. Like I said, the most exaggerated reactions I've seen from my dogs came in response to people who were TRYING to be friendly and pet them... so kind of the exact opposite of what you guys are trying to do, but same effect in terms of not exactly provoking the desired response!


I have a video of my bitch being "worked" by a club member. She's so not convinced the guy trying to posture at her that he's the bad guy that she's scanning the field for where the bad guy I'm turning her on to is lol. She decided the camera man must be the "bad guy". That's how bad most posturing is


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

Chris Wild said:


> It depends entirely on how the handler wants the dog to view protection work... as nothing but a rough and tumble game of tug-o-war or from a more serious standpoint where the full range of drives is utilized and tested.
> 
> If as a game, the handler can do the sleeve work. If from a more serious standpoint, the handler cannot. The former can get you through an IPO trial these days, but of course is far from ideal or correct given what IPO is supposed to be about and it's use as a test of breeding suitability.


 So you think that handlers should stay away from training their own dog on the sleeve if they want their dog to take the work seriously? What differentiates tugs from the sleeve? All sleeve work between the helper and the dog starts in prey, then defence is introduced, depending on maturity, so how is this initial training not setting a negative precedent as well? The dogs aren't viewing this work as threatening, it's just a game of tug-o-war. So that's why I don't understand why a handler cannot work his dog on a sleeve.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

Chris Wild said:


> Playing with the sleeve makes the sleeve a huge prey attraction and a play object to the dog. This can very much work against a helper trying to work the dog in a more serious fashion. At best, it creates drive conflict and confusion in the dog where the helper may say "serious" but the sleeve says "prey game" and the dog is getting mixed messages and is unsure how to respond properly. At worst it can completely undermine what the helper is trying to accomplish. Helpers work their butts off and aren't going to appreciate a handler undoing their work at home.
> 
> As I said, there are some very few situations where the handler doing sleeve work with the dog might be a good idea. But really if it is a good dog and a good helper, this is not necessary. And it certainly isn't something that a novice should be engaging in. I suppose if someone only wants a prey-game dog in protection, there is no harm. And if someone wants to do IPO but has no access to a real helper than this may be the only option available. But it is far from ideal and just plain doesn't have a role in good, solid, true to what it's supposed to be about IPO training.


All protection work starts in prey. The helper will work the dog in prey, on the sleeve, long long before defence is introduced. That's why you can start dogs in protection earlier than they are sexually mature, because it's not stressful to the dog.

So the dog makes this association with the helper long before things get serious. So I can't really see why, in preparing your dog for the helper, or in the initial stages of bitework, that you couldn't do this.

Of course, if you were doing this after your dog had been introduced to defensive work, then I can see what you described, as potentially happening.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

boomer11 said:


> Yeah so you think a person who was confused on how to move from a sit to a down to another command and when to reward is going to have enough experience? I didn't say don't ask questions. Just said pretty big jump up


I don't believe I was confused on how to move from a sit to a down to another command, or when to reward. That knowledge is extremely rudimentary and that was not what I needed clarification on. I never said anything about going into the work straight away, I am far from it, and that's just your assumption. 

Even if you're not directly saying it, there is no need to share your thinly veiled condescending comments. It doesn't help me, or anyone else at all. It does not promote *learning* and just makes me feel bad. Not because of your insults, but because of your bad nature and how mean-spirited and insecure a person it takes to tease others. I don't think that kind of behaviour represents the values of this site and forum at all.

It's that kind of attitude that stifles learning and keeps people from achieving. If you have an opinion about something, that I find contradictory to my own methods, and we formally disagree on, tat's fine, then we can have a civilised discussion about it. But I don't think comments like that are warranted.

I am not going to stop asking questions that might be "beyond" my current level, if I do that then how will I ever learn? I'm only very young and I want to constantly improve.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog

DaniFani said:


> Edit: I guess the way you worded this was a little weird?? As both of us are having a hard time delineating what you are asking. Are you asking if you can work a dog in prey over the sleeve alone, yourself? I guess you could do all the things I listed with the tug, but with the sleeve. I've not seen it done really, because the sleeve doesn't come out until the dog can handle pressure with the lower level "sleeves" and wedges, because as the object being bite gets tougher, the pressure levels are going up somewhat as well....but I guess you could use the sleeve in a "tug fashion"...is that what you are looking for?? I am honestly trying to help and learn a little through helping...no need to be hostile...I would assume you could advance your dog from tug, to wedge, to lower level sleeves, and eventually up to a trial sleeve, doing everything I listed, but just with the sleeve. We have a trainer that has a sleeve with a tie on it so he can toss it like a tug and pull it up and on for a grip...don't see why you couldn't do that??


I wasn't being hostile at all, can't see how you came to that conclusion. I thought I was being extremely polite, I even thanked you for your response and warned you that it wasn't what I was asking for so you wouldn't have to waste your time. My original post was very clear. I was just saying I did not need clarification on the whole prey/defence difference. That's very basic and I don't see why anyone, under any circumstances, with even the most basic understanding of the principles of IPO, would honestly be questioning why they cannot physically or verbally threaten their own dog, to engage it in defence - it is very clear to me why you would not do that haha. That just seems psychotic, so I assumed that you weren't involved in the sport because you bothered to make that distinction.

But this edit is very good and is exactly what I was asking so thankyou for that response.


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## crackem

For someone not looking to be hostile, you sure have a funny way of using words. you make me look pleasant.


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## hunterisgreat

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> All protection work starts in prey. The helper will work the dog in prey, on the sleeve, long long before defence is introduced. That's why you can start dogs in protection earlier than they are sexually mature, because it's not stressful to the dog.
> 
> So the dog makes this association with the helper long before things get serious. So I can't really see why, in preparing your dog for the helper, or in the initial stages of bitework, that you couldn't do this.
> 
> Of course, if you were doing this after your dog had been introduced to defensive work, then I can see what you described, as potentially happening.


It's more than inexperience causes problems in the foundation work


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## Liesje

My current dog was not started in prey. We tried that and he just kind of stood there looking at the helper like he was crazy for dancing around and kicking a bite pillow back and forth. He never really "turned on" until we felt it was appropriate to start working him in defense. That has always been his primary drive but in the past year or so I've worked with another helper doing more prey work to bring balance. I would never say you "always" do this or that when it comes to protection. It is a skill, an art, and a good helper knows how to read a dog and what exercises to introduce. If a helper worked my dog based on some formula he insisted on using with all dogs I'd find a new club. Granted I've learned a lot from this dog and made a lot of mistakes but not working him in prey as a young dog just because was not one of them.

ETA: As to the original question...no, I would not and do not work my own dogs. I'm not a helper or decoy so I don't work ANY dogs. I value a good teaching helper, especially someone who can do suspicion work and stuff outside of the IPO box (I prefer SDA). Most of the helpers and decoys I've worked with, this is their passion and they put so much into training dogs, sometimes even sacrificing time getting their own dogs trained. I won't presume that I can emulate them in my own training or that it's appropriate for me to me working my own pets in that frame of mind.


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## G-burg

> All protection work starts in prey. The helper will work the dog in prey, on the sleeve, long long before defence is introduced.


Not necessarily.. It depends on who you train with.. Not all helpers/clubs starts the dog in prey.. And many will not even fool with a young immature dog in the bitework until they can tap into the correct drive. Plus there are dogs out their that don't have a lot of prey and aren't interested in prey bites.


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## hunterisgreat

G-burg said:


> Not necessarily.. It depends on who you train with.. Not all helpers/clubs starts the dog in prey.. And many will not even fool with a young immature dog in the bitework until they can tap into the correct drive. Plus there are dogs out their that don't have a lot of prey and aren't interested in prey bites.


There are whole breeds that way lol


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## onyx'girl

G-burg said:


> Not necessarily.. It depends on who you train with.. Not all helpers/clubs starts the dog in prey.. And* many will not even fool with a young immature dog in the bitework until they can tap into the correct drive.* Plus there are dogs out their that don't have a lot of prey and aren't interested in prey bites.


:thumbup:


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## Chris Wild

No, not all protection work starts in prey. That may be the way you and your club start protection, but it is not the way everyone does. As was already mentioned, many prefer to wait until the dog is a bit more mature and has the full range of drives available to be worked. Again, this mostly comes down to whether or not the goal is a balanced dog with some seriousness, or a prey dog. 

If all you want is a game of tug-o-war, than by all means have your helper start the dog in prey and feel free to play with your own dog with the sleeve. But this is not what many people doing IPO want, nor is it true to the breed test aspect of IPO where defense and aggression are also supposed to be tested alongside prey.





Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> So you think that handlers should stay away from training their own dog on the sleeve if they want their dog to take the work seriously? What differentiates tugs from the sleeve? All sleeve work between the helper and the dog starts in prey, then defence is introduced, depending on maturity, so how is this initial training not setting a negative precedent as well? The dogs aren't viewing this work as threatening, it's just a game of tug-o-war. So that's why I don't understand why a handler cannot work his dog on a sleeve.


What is the difference between a tug and a sleeve? Depends on what association is made in the dog's mind. Tugs are for the most part solely prey objects with which the dog plays a game. Sleeves can be the same, or can be treated differently where they are an extension of the helper and the dog is, in his mind, biting the helper not a prey object. Keeping bites restricted to the sleeve only are a trained "rule of engagement" but the dog is not biting the sleeve because he thinks it is a toy. Big difference. However if the dog is initially taught that the sleeve is a toy, just like a tug, that is how he will always view it.

The same holds true with the helper. The dog can be initially introduced to the helper as an adversary and potential threat, or as a playmate. That initial association will carry over always. So again, if you want a prey dog playing with the helper, than start the work in prey and feel free to do your own sleeve work. If you don't want the dog to view protection that way, than don't do those things.


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## mycobraracr

G-burg said:


> Not necessarily.. It depends on who you train with.. Not all helpers/clubs starts the dog in prey.. And many will not even fool with a young immature dog in the bitework until they can tap into the correct drive. Plus there are dogs out their that don't have a lot of prey and aren't interested in prey bites.


 
:thumbup: I try and start them a little more balanced. Yes even puppies. Just need to keep it age/dog appropriate.


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## crackem

I think it comes down to the individual dog more than anything. There are so many dogs out there that people will call balanced because they always see a helper as a threat. I call it conditioning, not balance. It's like so much of training, done to give the appearance of certain things. 

I've worked so many dogs that have broken all the rules, I wonder why we have them in the first place sometimes. Just because a dog is started out in prey doesn't mean that's all they'll ever know. If' that's been your experience, then I suggest you seek out different experiences.

and just because a dog is held back till it's mature, doesn't make it balanced, sometimes it is still just crap. I think anytime a dog with real balance in its temperament is shown the different pictures and scenarios it will remain balanced. 

I don't think that just because you wait till a dog is mature then teach him the helper is always an *******, it gives them balance. It may give them a more convincing bark in the blind, but a lot of those dogs are anything but balanced and if you take a puppy and teach it prey work and bite behavior and introduce prey defense and then make it more real as the dog can handle it, it will end up just how it supposed to be and find it's own balance...wherever on that spectrum it may be. 

I guess I really don't get too caught up in prey and defense. They can fall on either side and still be a pretty great dog. 

A dog that has a prey bark still hurts when it bites and some of those dogs will take a pipe to the skull and still bite you just for fun. Not my ideal, but still a very useful dog.


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## hunterisgreat

Chris Wild said:


> No, not all protection work starts in prey. That may be the way you and your club start protection, but it is not the way everyone does. As was already mentioned, many prefer to wait until the dog is a bit more mature and has the full range of drives available to be worked. Again, this mostly comes down to whether or not the goal is a balanced dog with some seriousness, or a prey dog.
> 
> If all you want is a game of tug-o-war, than by all means have your helper start the dog in prey and feel free to play with your own dog with the sleeve. But this is not what many people doing IPO want, nor is it true to the breed test aspect of IPO where defense and aggression are also supposed to be tested alongside prey.
> 
> What is the difference between a tug and a sleeve? Depends on what association is made in the dog's mind. Tugs are for the most part solely prey objects with which the dog plays a game. Sleeves can be the same, or can be treated differently where they are an extension of the helper and the dog is, in his mind, biting the helper not a prey object. Keeping bites restricted to the sleeve only are a trained "rule of engagement" but the dog is not biting the sleeve because he thinks it is a toy. Big difference. However if the dog is initially taught that the sleeve is a toy, just like a tug, that is how he will always view it.
> 
> The same holds true with the helper. The dog can be initially introduced to the helper as an adversary and potential threat, or as a playmate. That initial association will carry over always. So again, if you want a prey dog playing with the helper, than start the work in prey and feel free to do your own sleeve work. If you don't want the dog to view protection that way, than don't do those things.


I think you can start in prey and there are advantages to it... the learning is quicker from less stress and then higher/easier reward of lustful prey stimulation... then later bring out aggression. I'd guess its a matter of if you want to work harder teaching behaviors with a defensive edge from the start, or have to work more later to turn that prey into aggression. In my experience, even with a prey trained dog, once you flip the aggression switch there is no turning it back off again. even then, for example with my male, he works in prey on me and thats all i ask for, and this includes sleeves, pillows, etc. When I want to teach him a new behavior in protection work, I work him myself in prey. (partly necessary as I don't always have another helper around) i don't do suit work with him (a little too personal), and his work on a different helper is in aggression, not prey.

just my thoughts


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## Chris Wild

I do agree that starting in prey isn't always a bad thing, or that it will automatically mean the dog is a prey dog for life. Though starting in prey and adding aggression later can be much more difficult to do and require a lot more effort on the part of the helper, and often the use of additional tools and environmental stressors to accomplish it. I've trained both ways over the years and have simply found that if the end goal is a dog who has a more balanced approach to the work, it makes the most sense and works the best for most dogs to wait until they are ready to work that way before even starting them.

Depending on the dog and the helperwork/training, starting in prey can indeed hamper trying to work the dog in a different fashion later on. Especially with so many of the bloodlines today which are mostly prey to begin with. Of course, that gets more down to the dog than the training. Some dogs aren't capable of anything but prey. Some are capable, but the prey is so strong that if it is the main focus of the training for a significant period of time that capability to work otherwise is lost and they become "locked in prey" as the term goes. Then of course there are dogs who are genetically the opposite and they need to have the prey developed and encouraged because their natural inclination is to go too far the other way in the work.


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