# Question on Mom and Dad



## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

HI,

I'm new here! Hello to everyone!


I just need an opinion on this Sire and Dam Our Dogs

I am getting a puppy from this on Monday, anything I should be worried about?

Thanks

Aramazd


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> HI,
> 
> I am getting a puppy from this on Monday, anything I should be worried about?
> 
> Aramazd



I would think it's kind of late to ask this, if you are getting a puppy from there in two days.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

I can still cancel, its the only GSD breeder in ND that has puppies available and I made an appointment.


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## WestCoastGSD (Jan 7, 2011)

Why on earth would they remove their dewclaws?? I sure hope they are talking about some random rear dewclaws that showed up on the puppies and not the front dewclaws, those are never to be removed on a German Shepherd.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

WestCoastGSD said:


> Why on earth would they remove their dewclaws?? I sure hope they are talking about some random rear dewclaws that showed up on the puppies and not the front dewclaws, those are never to be removed on a German Shepherd.



"Many reputable breeders remove dew claws when the pups are a few days old - if the puppies were born with rear dew claws it is required for the show ring, and front dew claws on a working dog can get caught and torn on brush and in a pet dog are easily overlooked when checking nail length and can actually loop and grow back into the leg (ouch!). For a dog that will not be running through a lot of brush everyday and with an owner who keeps up with nail trimming, it is not necessary to remove them, but since it is best done when the pups are under 5 days old, it is usually done to the whole litter because the breeder isn't sure which dogs will be working dogs or pets. "

Got this answer online from another forum. Its pretty grassy/brushy out here in the Northern Midwest.

I am not worried about the dewclaws, I am just want an opinion on the Sire and Dam.

Thank you


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There is info showing that dogs doing agility with front dewclaws removed are more prone to injury and early onset of arthritis. An active dog running, doing quick direction changes, jumping, sliding to a stop, etc - uses their dew claw as an extra toe, often making contack with the ground or obstacle, helping in grip, balance, weight bearing, and tracking. 

Removing front dewclaws is not recommended.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have no experience with this breeder. But a quick look at the website. The male is very much not to my liking physically, his top line and front are very very displeasing. But that's me. 

I would prefer to actually see the PennHIP rating instead of a generic OennHIP CERTIFIED. Cause PennHIP does not certify anything. They just give numbers and recommend the range in which a dog should be considered for breeding. But it's generic. So that makes me uneasy. 

The pair look to be of differing lines. But I did not look at dam pedigree, only sires, and again not super impressed. 

I would personally not consider a pup. I would look elsewhere. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The PDB lists the sire as A1 hips but I cannot find him in the ZW database. Also, he turned two years old *today* so he was bred (IMO) very young. Not necessarily a deal breaker but the breeder would have to have a very good reason for me to be interested.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

It looks like the Sire's great grandfather is this guy or am I wrong when I read the lines. 

Puppies


Thanks


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## mjta (Sep 14, 2013)

Besides what others have mentioned I don't see any titles on the dogs. The sire's structure also looks very off to me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes he is but Pakros has hundreds of progeny. What titles has the sire himself achieved? I won't critique the sire based on his photo since he is so young and the photo looks like it may have been taken when he was a puppy. It also looks like he's already sired other litters for them. Do you know why he was bred so young? They've got a litter in the database born Oct 2012 which means he would have been under 1 year when they were bred.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> It looks like the Sire's great grandfather is this guy or am I wrong when I read the lines.
> 
> Puppies
> 
> ...


Who cares?? No offense, but this is a pet peeve of mine...breeding dogs too young, no titles, minimal health tests, no rhyme or reason to the matching, and bragging about a dog, three generations BACK with good titles....if everything else in the pedigree is crud or at the very least not proven, ONE good/semi good or titled dog that is several generations back..if the breeder is using that ONE dog as a crux for their marketing techniques or bragging rights to their dogs..that is a HUGE red flag to me....everything else considered I wouldn't touch this breeder with a ten foot pole. I also will only go to a breeder who is actively working their OWN dogs in venues...I just don't think a breeder can truly say they know what their dogs are capable of unless they are actively working those dogs, successfully. 

But I also do not understand putting a deposit down, being days away from picking up a puppy, and THEN deciding to do research. I think so many people's biggest mistake is, "they were the only one with puppies available NOW so I picked them." In the grand scheme of the lifetime of a dog...what's waiting a few months to get a well bred one...having to wait a bit would NEVER be a make or break it for me. Good luck.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

On a side note the Dam had 14 pups...


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Who cares?? No offense, but this is a pet peeve of mine...breeding dogs too young, no titles, minimal health tests, no rhyme or reason to the matching, and bragging about a dog, three generations BACK with good titles....if everything else in the pedigree is crud or at the very least not proven, ONE good/semi good or titled dog that is several generations back..if the breeder is using that ONE dog as a crux for their marketing techniques or bragging rights to their dogs..that is a HUGE red flag to me....everything else considered I wouldn't touch this breeder with a ten foot pole. I also will only go to a breeder who is actively working their OWN dogs in venues...I just don't think a breeder can truly say they know what their dogs are capable of unless they are actively working those dogs, successfully.
> 
> But I also do not understand putting a deposit down, being days away from picking up a puppy, and THEN deciding to do research. I think so many people's biggest mistake is, "they were the only one with puppies available NOW so I picked them." In the grand scheme of the lifetime of a dog...what's waiting a few months to get a well bred one...having to wait a bit would NEVER be a make or break it for me. Good luck.


 
I was trying to get an opinion not getting my head ripped off ... IF THAT or any other info MATTERS??? PLUS THE BREEDER DID NOT POINT OUT ANY OF THIS, I SAW IT ON THE PEDIGREE SITE. I don't know anything about this, but your no help either. I am new at this. The funny thing is, I am going to get the Puppy. Gotta take him to the Vet within 72hrs to get a health exam part of the warranty. If there is a problem he is 100% refundable. 

I live in ND there is hardly any breeders around, plus its $200 bucks, I wont die if I lose it. ** comment removed by ADMIN ** Thanks a lot for being a downer, I just wanted to see if with the limited amount of info I had I was making a normal choice not a perfect one, its a companion not a show dog. 

Have a nice day.

**You may not like the message, but you will be polite to the messenger. ADMIN **


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> I was trying to get an opinion not getting my head ripped off ... IF THAT or any other info MATTERS??? PLUS THE BREEDER DID NOT POINT OUT ANY OF THIS, I SAW IT ON THE PEDIGREE SITE. I don't know anything about this, but your no help either. I am new at this. The funny thing is, I am going to get the Puppy. Gotta take him to the Vet within 72hrs to get a health exam part of the warranty. If there is a problem he is 100% refundable.
> 
> I live in ND there is hardly any breeders around, plus its $200 bucks, I wont die if I lose it. ** deleted comment removed ** Thanks a lot for being a downer, I just wanted to see if with the limited amount of info I had I was making a normal choice not a perfect one, its a companion not a show dog.
> 
> Have a nice day.


Dani's post had everything to do with how to select a dog, and nothing to do with being elitist.
If you look at her past posts, you will see that she bought a dog from a backyard breeder and endured heartbreak when she had to put the dog down at barely a year old, for multiple health problems.

If you truly want advice, then you will take it and find a reputable breeder. What is a reputable breeder? Easy to learn, just browse this forum.

If you came here just to hear a, "Great, go for it!" you will not get it, because that is not a breeder people here would recommend. 

I think you still have time to do some research and understand why people here would not buy from that breeder.

If not, then get the $200 puppy, and hope for the best.

PS-- the first 72 hours will tell you nothing about any genetic problems the puppy may develop in the future. Most of these show up later.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

aramazd COOL your jets, I think Dani was generalizing as well not specifically aiming her post at YOU.

I see her point, you've put a deposit down on a puppy, your planning on getting the puppy, admit you know 'nothing' about this, yet you ask for an opinion on the dogs in question and you don't like the answer!

Are you saying you are paying only 200 bucks for the puppy total? Or the deposit?

While there may not be breeders in your area, there are breeders EVERYWHERE, you can have a puppy shipped, you can travel to go meet some..Why 'settle' for one that's convenient?

The questions you've asked or should have asked, should be done so prior to purchase especially if you haven't got the knowledge as you admit (and that's not a bash at all ) 

I know nothing of the breeder nor the dogs in question, they aren't my cup of tea but that's me...

You can sure take that puppy to a vet for a check up, doesn't mean things down the road won't happen..or it could be healthy as horse for it's lifetime. No one can predict the future, but finding a good responsible health minded breeder can stack the odds in 'your' favor..

Sunflowers post above bears re reading.. 

Calling people names / swearing is NOT allowed here..so keep it clean..


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Dani's post had everything to do with how to select a dog, and nothing to do with being elitist.
> If you look at her past posts, you will see that she bought a dog from a backyard breeder and endured heartbreak when she had to put the dog down at barely a year old, for multiple health problems.
> 
> If you truly want advice, then you will take it and find a reputable breeder. What is a reputable breeder? Easy to learn, just browse this forum.
> ...


Rather than going on a Rant, Dani could of said, that's probably not what you need to look at. I'm sorry that I didn't read everyone profiles before I responded, should add that to the requirements when joining this forum. You know first impressions... everyone else had their opinions and I enjoyed learning. 


The puppy is $750 total, so I would lose the deposit if I don't go for it. However, I have decided to go with it, if pup has genetic problems then we will have to hit that wall when we come to it.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

I got a good idea what I am getting into. I appreciate all your help. I apologize if I was rude or called anyone names. Wish me luck because I guess I picked the wrong puppy. That's one thing I cant figure out, these people are actually a really nice couple breeding, he doesn't breed for money either, he works full time on Oil Rigs, makes more money than a lawyer. Oh well.

This is Van. : http://nebula.wsimg.com/ced28babfed...ccessKeyId=25DB74D4F692DD612BA2&disposition=0


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Of course he breeds for money. If you do not show or work or title your dogs, you do not incur all the expenses that a reputable breeder would. You throw your dogs together, charge less than half of what a good breeder would, and hope the your bitch doesn't have complications with the whelp.

Good luck.

I am always confused when people come here asking for opinions after they have already put down a deposit and gotten emotionally attached to the puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am almost afraid to make this comment. 

Looking at the sire, his topline is very poor. The dog's picture is very roached, and whoever stacked him and selected that photo for his database photo, obviously doesn't know a lot about good GSD structure, and this is coming from a showline perpective.

The dam is pictured lying down. Therefore we do not know if her structure is very correct, which is definitely what you would want if you bred to that male. 

I noticed that the boy is young, but I don't think that maturity will improve that top line that much. 

The next issue I see which is what you are asking for, is that both the sire and dam have Liminite as their Grandfather, so a 3-3 breeding on Liminite, which is close but acceptable. I would ask why they chose to line breed on this dog. The dog's sire is Iron, so that is 4-4 on Iron, but also they have this dog in the 3rd generation as well, so 4-4,3 -- again this is not unacceptable, but a dog that you are heavily breeding upon ought to walk on water. I would like to know why if I was buying the puppy. All I see on him is a CGC. That isn't exactly a spectacular resume. 

If you have 4-4,3 on Pakros, well, he's a sieger, has SchH3 etc. He probably has a thousand progeny, and you can get an idea of what he produces. I guess, my thing is they should probably be able to tell you what the dog Iron brings to the equation, what they are trying to improve by using him. 

It's late in the game to ask these questions, but it is better to lose a deposit if there are issues with the dog or the breeder.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am almost afraid to make this comment.
> 
> Looking at the sire, his topline is very poor. The dog's picture is very roached, and whoever stacked him and selected that photo for his database photo, obviously doesn't know a lot about good GSD structure, and this is coming from a showline perpective.
> 
> ...


 


Very informative post. Personally I would eat the $200 and run like the wind. Too many good dogs and breeders out there to waste time and money on the bad ones.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

So.. should I tell the breeder all this as well as making sure he euthanized all the pups since your telling me he's a reject? You guys are elitists. I'm getting the dog for our family not a show dog or any kind of special task force dog. I'm sorry I even came on here. Should have went to a reputable dog breeder for a $2000 dollar puppy to play fetch with is my lesson learned. So what happens with puppies that are need for money... thrown to the streets? Then we have to rescue them because we have a breeder that let's them go and gives up?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The puppy is cute as a button. Most puppies are, but he is a beautiful German Showline dog pup. It is very possible that he will be everything you want in a dog and more. Love him, train him, give him a wonderful live, and you will probably be the recipient of more than what you give. 

Probably. 

There are no guaranties when you are dealing with a living, breathing creature. If you could guaranty that by paying 2000 or 5000 dollars for a puppy you will have a dog with stable temperament and a very healthy 14 year life-span, we could all explain exactly to congress how breeding permits should be regulated. The thing is, it just doesn't work. If a good knowledgeable breeder puts together dogs with respect to their strengths and weaknesses and their pedigrees (what those dogs produce) they can reduce the incidents of some genetic health and behavioral problems, but they cannot eliminate them. Good knowledgeable breeders are also a wealth of information, and they can help to match you correctly with your puppy and provide support down the line if you run into issues. And they will take the puppy back if that ever becomes necessary.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am almost afraid to make this comment.
> 
> Looking at the sire, his topline is very poor. The dog's picture is very roached, and whoever stacked him and selected that photo for his database photo, obviously doesn't know a lot about good GSD structure, and this is coming from a showline perpective.
> 
> ...


I like your post. Thank you for your opinion. Very informative and I'll ask the breeder on Iron


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> So.. should I tell the breeder all this as well as making sure he euthanized all the pups since your telling me he's a reject? You guys are elitists. I'm getting the dog for our family not a show dog or any kind of special task force dog. I'm sorry I even came on here. Should have went to a reputable dog breeder for a $2000 dollar puppy to play fetch with is my lesson learned. So what happens with puppies that are need for money... thrown to the streets? Then we have to rescue them because we have a breeder that let's them go and gives up?


 
Not elitist, just experienced. Just about every one of us started out with a puppy just like this. Then a year or two later we had thousands of dollars invested into the dog for temperament or health issues. Just look at the 10 threads a day started on this forum alone for these very reasons. So we try to educate people before they have to experience it. Some times we get lucky, but why chance it if you don't already have the dog. Good breeders work their dogs, so they know everything there is to know about the dog and the dogs in it's pedigree. They then match those strengths and weaknesses to the right sir/dam to produce sound and healthy puppies. This is not cheap. Good breeders also give you support for the lifetime of the dog. Believe me their knowledge is worth a lot more than $2000. A good breeder also has a health guarantee that's good against genetic issues. I'm not talking about 72 hours, but for a lifetime. I'm sure we can make a list and go on all night about the differences between a reputable breeder and not. Good luck!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Aramazd said:


> So.. should I tell the breeder all this as well as making sure he euthanized all the pups since your telling me he's a reject? You guys are elitists. I'm getting the dog for our family not a show dog or any kind of special task force dog. I'm sorry I even came on here. Should have went to a reputable dog breeder for a $2000 dollar puppy to play fetch with is my lesson learned. So what happens with puppies that are need for money... thrown to the streets? Then we have to rescue them because we have a breeder that let's them go and gives up?


If you don't want to support a 'reputable' breeder, look for a good rescue. I'd rather support a rescue than a breeder that is taking shortcuts or breeding dogs that may not be breedworthy. What is this breeder's goals/motivation for breeding? 
I prefer to call a breeder responsible when they are doing the right thing, any breeder can have a reputation, good or bad. Supporting a responsible breeder is more important than supporting a reputable one. 
Look at this link so you can learn a bit more about lines and what to look for in a good, responsible breeder. German Shepherd Guide - Home


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Aramazd said:


> So.. should I tell the breeder all this as well as making sure he euthanized all the pups since your telling me he's a reject? You guys are elitists. I'm getting the dog for our family not a show dog or any kind of special task force dog. I'm sorry I even came on here. Should have went to a reputable dog breeder for a $2000 dollar puppy to play fetch with is my lesson learned. So what happens with puppies that are need for money... thrown to the streets? Then we have to rescue them because we have a breeder that let's them go and gives up?


Since you asked, the best thing to happen to a breeder that is making poor breeding decisions and breeding dogs that are not good representatives of the breed is to not have the puppies sell. 

12 puppies are just impossible to raise and keep, pretty much, and yes, if they do not sell, he will have to give them away, or drop them in a shelter, where hopefully, they will be rescued.  At that point, people who get them keep them as pets, they will be altered, and will not be sold to people who will breed them, with an equal or even less information and understanding of the whole process. 

Instead of the breeder making $9,000 for 8 weeks of whelping and raising a litter of puppies, he will probably find the whole process a lot of work with no gain and not breed his dog and bitch together again. 

But there will always be people who will be willing to pay half the going rate for a puppy. So there will always be people who will breed this same way. Some of your dog's siblings will probably be bred and sold for five to eight hundred dollars. And as people pay less attention to how close they are breeding, how much back massing there is, what each dog produces, the incidents of temperament and structural problems will increase. It is unfortunate that most people have to learn this stuff first hand, and even then, enough people get a dog that is perfectly fine from these and worst situations, that nothing changes.

Enjoy your dog. You asked what we thought. We told you. Your dog is not a reject. Most of us would not support the breeding decision by buying a dog from this pairing. Sorry if that was not what you were asking. You should probably be more clear in your communication if you wanted something different.


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## Vagus (Oct 7, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> So.. should I tell the breeder all this as well as making sure he euthanized all the pups since your telling me he's a reject? You guys are elitists.


Wow. Way to be dramatic and totally misinterpret other users' concerns. They are suggesting that you, Aramazd, specifically pass on this litter. You asked for info on the breeding, and knowledgeable people gave you an answer. If you don't support this breeder, it doesn't mean the puppies will all die. Other, less knowledgeable, people will be suckered into buying the fuzzy little pups. You now know better, which was your aim in asking in the first place right? 

Many people on this forum (myself included) have German shepherds as companions and family dogs only. Its not about being elitist when you get a dog through a good breeder. Its about supporting a breeder who knows what they're doing, why they bred particular dogs together, health tests and character testing (through various avenues) to ensure that the puppies brought into the world through their practices are sound animals. 

Check out the health and aggression subforums if you think getting a byb puppy is no big deal. That's not to say well bred GSDs are free of these issues or that all byb pups are problematic dogs. Its all about the probability game. 

Regardless, I'm sorry that your experience on this forum has not been as exciting and enlightening as its been for me and many others. Wishing you luck with your puppy.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> HI,
> 
> I'm new here! Hello to everyone!
> 
> ...


Why would you ask people's opinions, and when they generously take time to try to help you, call them four letter words and then elitists?

I think you don't understand what reputable breeders do. They don't just breed expensive show dogs to take to Westminster. 

Another way to look at the scenario: you go on a car forum and ask people to look at a truck you're going to buy.
Since many have owned that type of truck before, they tell you that it would be risky to get that one, but give you ideas on where to look for one that would make you happy in the long run and keep you from spending a lot of money on repairs and maintenance.

You you then get upset, calling them four letter words and elitists. 
Doesn't make sense.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, I stand by my concern that they bred the sired before he was even ONE year old. If these dogs are such great family pets WHY are the breeding puppies?!? This has nothing to do with price or being elitist. ANY breeder should be able to tell you WHY they are breeding dog A to dog B (and this breeder appears to be doing so repeatedly...what is so stellar about the original litter that they are repeating it 2, 3 times?). Why are they breeding such young dogs with no titles and questionable health certificates? I say "questionable" because I cannot find records of the hip ratings these dogs supposedly have. It's your choice, your money but personally even with a budget of $750 I think you could do better...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

$750x12, that's why.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Why would you ask people's opinions, and when they generously take time to try to help you, call them four letter words and then elitists?
> 
> I think you don't understand what reputable breeders do. They don't just breed expensive show dogs to take to Westminster.
> 
> ...


I never called anyone a 4 letter word. 5 yes but not 4. I asked opinions on the mom and dad not a breeder bashing as its actually against the rules and you guys did. I wanted an opinion not a lesson in buying a Toyota vs a ford. Thanks


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> $750x12, that's why.



You know in Williston ND that $750 is nothing . Rent is $3700 a month for a 3b2b apartment. So that Argument doesn't work here. Basic 3bed2Bath house goes for 340000 on average.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> You know in Williston ND that $750 is nothing . Rent is $3700 a month for a 3b2b apartment. So that Argument doesn't work here.


You are making zero sense to me.
If cost of living is so high, then selling puppies without the expense of showing and titling does bring a nice little bonus home.
As for the 4 vs 5, what you said was just as offensive.
I am done here, as what I would like to say would get me banned.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Good luck with your sweet puppy, since you began your research a bit late. And don't be angry with the responses you've received from people here who have a great deal of experience and knowledge, many of whom have been down the road you've just begun your travels on, and may be trying, rightly or wrongly, to save you heartbreak, sleepless nights, and many more dollars than it takes to rent that 3br2bth apt in your very expensive area. My hope for you is that you luck out and have no issues whatsoever with that adorable little ball of fur, and that you enjoy many happy, healthy years together. We are not elitists, just experienced...and nobody was breeder bashing...why ARE these breeders breeding these dogs? Especially such a young male (without commenting on his structure). Well, hey, the deed is done...your baby is a cutie, hope all goes well...stick around, lots of good knowledge 
and advice here...really...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think commenting on on-line websites or dogs listed publicly as the sire and dam of a litter, looking at posted information and giving an opinion about that information, that the breeder posted is not necessarily breeder-bashing. I suppose it is a fine line. What a breeder chooses to list, is a snap shot that they thoroughly approve of. 

If anyone had a personal encounter with the breeder, if it was negative, they would really have to discuss that through a PM with you. 

I never looked at the breeder's name, just the dogs and the pedigrees. I saw the listed pen hip, sv hip score on some of the dogs, and what was listed for the dogs on the pedigree. But I suppose it could be breeder bashing. 

I think that when you make statements like that he is not in it for the money, evidence by how much he is charging, or how expensive the area is, that opens a line of discussion as to why that thinking doesn't generally hold water. He is charging less, but is doing much less and will sell his dogs quicker and pay less overall by doing so. 

Maybe because the area is so expensive to live in, selling those pups is helping out. Just because someone is working on an oil rig and making plenty of money doesn't mean they aren't spending to equal what they are making. 

So I do not think it is so much breeder bashing as pointing out why it may look like they are unconcerned with the money, but may very well be.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> I was trying to get an opinion not getting my head ripped off ... IF THAT or any other info MATTERS??? PLUS THE BREEDER DID NOT POINT OUT ANY OF THIS, I SAW IT ON THE PEDIGREE SITE. I don't know anything about this, but your no help either. I am new at this. The funny thing is, I am going to get the Puppy. Gotta take him to the Vet within 72hrs to get a health exam part of the warranty. If there is a problem he is 100% refundable.
> 
> I live in ND there is hardly any breeders around, plus its $200 bucks, I wont die if I lose it. ** comment removed by ADMIN ** Thanks a lot for being a downer, I just wanted to see if with the limited amount of info I had I was making a normal choice not a perfect one, its a companion not a show dog.
> 
> ...


:shrug:

I could have written your OP one and a half years ago...right down to the breeder not doing it for money and living in an expensive area (not sure what the heck that has to do with anything). It isn't about showing the dog or having it work on a police force...it's about stacking the GENETIC odds in your favor so that you hopefully don't get a dog that gets a diagnosed heart murmur at 6 months old that kills him 9 months later, getting a dog that jumps when a door closes, attacks or goes nuts at a piece of paper blowing in the wind, barks at kids because he's scared, urinates all over himself because he's terrified of the garbage truck outside, or go into renal failure because his bad heart can't get enough oxygenated blood to his kidneys....it's about NOT supporting or FUNDING breeders who breed dogs that are supposed to be able to stand up to the scariest of foes...but instead urinate all over themselves if their owner/handler tells them "no." 

It's a crap shoot...you could come out on top like some of the owners on my old breeder's "brag page." Or you could be one that has to explain to your kids why Fido had to be put down at a year and a half old. Yeah....I'm being a little dramatic...but you've injected some drama into this thread, so there's my dose. 

Sometimes a little "tough love" is the only way to get through to some people, frankly....I just don't want to coddle people anymore...these are the facts...these are the reasons people wouldn't choose your breeder...these are the things that experienced owners are suggesting you look for...take it or leave it. Go with a breeder who breeds to the breed standard and is striving to BETTER the breed in every way they can...or don't...your money, your problems, your decisions....people nowadays think that there are only bad owners not bad dogs....in my opinion there most definitely ARE bad dogs. Bad in the sense of, bad genes. No matter how much you train a fear aggressive dog, it will always have that at it's core (and the breed in it's current state is RAMPANT with fear aggression and genetic bad nerves)...it's in the genes...and it's not something an inexperienced owner will see in 72 hours in an 8 week old puppy....it's something they'll see when it bites out of fear at 6 months or cowers anytime anyone new comes over at a year and a half. 

Sincerely, I am NOT trying to be mean, just telling you how it is. If you change your mind...up your budget to $1200 or so....the people around here could really help you *support* a reputable/responsible breeder and get a dog with a solid genetic makeup. Good luck, truly.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> So.. should I tell the breeder all this as well as making sure he euthanized all the pups since your telling me he's a reject? You guys are elitists. I'm getting the dog for our family not a show dog or any kind of special task force dog. I'm sorry I even came on here. Should have went to a reputable dog breeder for a $2000 dollar puppy to play fetch with is my lesson learned. So what happens with puppies that are need for money... thrown to the streets? Then we have to rescue them because we have a breeder that let's them go and gives up?


Look, I'm in the upper Midwest also, and I would not have considered this kennel. And yes, I'm paying $2500 for a puppy to play fetch with because that money isn't just buying a puppy. It's buying a bank of expertise from a breeder who makes careful choices about the health and soundness of their dogs. I'm sorry you feel put upon, but I think DaniFani was trying to be logical and give perspective based on legitimate red flags she saw. I flatly don't buy into a working line bias, but I do believe that to a large extent, you get what you pay for. Researching a large proportion of kennels in the upper Midwest led me to conclude that if I want to be assured I am getting a quality puppy, I will have to be willing to be discerning, to be patient, and to possibly pay a bit of a premium.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> Look, I'm in the upper Midwest also, and I would not have considered this kennel. And yes, I'm paying $2500 for a puppy to play fetch with because that money isn't just buying a puppy. It's buying a bank of expertise from a breeder who makes careful choices about the health and soundness of their dogs. I'm sorry you feel put upon, but I think DaniFani was trying to be logical and give perspective based on legitimate red flags she saw. I flatly don't buy into a working line bias, but I do believe that to a large extent, you get what you pay for. Researching a large proportion of kennels in the upper Midwest led me to conclude that if I want to be assured I am getting a quality puppy, I will have to be willing to be discerning, to be patient, and to possibly pay a bit of a premium.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Talked to the breeder. Gave me a guarantee and wrote and signed it that he stands by his puppies 100%. His teacher breeder sell puppies for $1500 and he started a new line for himself. He brought the mother up to ND to help her get thru the pregnancy. He built a large fence on his lot and its leased land. If this guy didn't care and is only doing it for money. People in Williston would pay $2000 even I would have because that's the going rate. Unregistered English bulldogs in petstore for $2200. His Dogs aren't caged. Dogs live at home with his kids and they are between 4 and 10. The moms temperament is great. The puppies didn't even nip at my 15 month old boy. I met the breeder by accident and was surprised at how much time and money he puts into the pups and only charges $750. I totally understand there are crappy breeders but how do new good breeders start out? Not very popular and with time become reputable or they fail. Time can only tell. Cost of living comment was if he needed money he could have sold them for much more. Also if puppy dies because of what you said Dani... death is part of life and my children should know how it feels otherwise when they get older they won't know how to grieve and understand how the world works ... so death and telling my boys he died is part of being a parent and I have no problem doing it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

It's not the money that's the issue here. This breeder looks like he's just breeding his unproven pets to pet homes. Nothing really special about these dogs. Pretty much the same thing you see in craigslist ads around the world. He could charge $5k for these dogs and people would still tell you to go somewhere else.

If i were you, I'd eat the $200 and look somewhere else. There are much better options out there.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> Talked to the breeder. Gave me a guarantee and wrote and signed it that he stands by his puppies 100%. His teacher breeder sell puppies for $1500 and he started a new line for himself. He brought the mother up to ND to help her get thru the pregnancy. He built a large fence on his lot and its leased land. If this guy didn't care and is only doing it for money. People in Williston would pay $2000 even I would have because that's the going rate. Unregistered English bulldogs in petstore for $2200. His Dogs aren't caged. Dogs live at home with his kids and they are between 4 and 10. The moms temperament is great. The puppies didn't even nip at my 15 month old boy. I met the breeder by accident and was surprised at how much time and money he puts into the pups and only charges $750. I totally understand there are crappy breeders but how do new good breeders start out? Not very popular and with time become reputable or they fail. Time can only tell. Cost of living comment was if he needed money he could have sold them for much more. Also if puppy dies because of what you said Dani... death is part of life and my children should know how it feels otherwise when they get older they won't know how to grieve and understand how the world works ... so death and telling my boys he died is part of being a parent and I have no problem doing it.


English Bulldogs puppies go for $2000+ everywhere. Not all breeds/puppies have the same going rate. English bulldogs can't have natural births, and rarely have natural pregnancies. Most times a vet has to collect the sperm and put it into the female because due to the breed's build they cannot tie. Same with birth, their heads are too big to fit through the birthing canal and so they're all c-sectioned out. They also produce smaller litters and therefore the breeders have to charge more in order to cover their costs.

What else comes with the puppy? What kind of registration? The part about him being able to charge more isn't true...a lot of people that "know" (which is what people here are trying to get you to do) would have know issue going out of state or shipping a puppy. That's the beauty of America, if one area has a higher cost of living, it generally doesn't affect the prices of non-essential goods because its so easy to go to a different area to purchase those goods or ship them in. Prices will only rise if supply is short and supply is generally not short. This is why cost of living does not affect the average price of puppies all over the United States. Your average working line will cost $1000-$1500, and your average show line will be $1500-$2000. Anything more is usually due to a special circumstance (sieger/champion) or a breeder being able to get more out of uneducated people. So...this guy has no choice but to undercut the breeders just outside your area that are charging $1200 or somewhere around there. Trust me...he knows he's breeding "pet" quality dogs and doesn't expect anyone in the know to purchase from him. There's nothing wrong with that...I got a $500 dog from people just like this guy and he's a wonderful dog. Luckily he loves to work and is extremely healthy (have gotten his hips checked). 

Anyways...I know that my explanation of the market for GSDs is extremely simple, but it pretty much is that simple. The fact that he admitted that he's learned, or gotten a dog, from someone that charges $1500 means he understands where he fits into the equation. Personally, his guarantee means nothing to me, I mean, what in the world means "I stand 100% behind my puppies." Does that mean he can guarantee that they are 100% GSD puppies? I really don't put any weight on guarantees when it comes to a dog as its not like I'm really going to get rid of my beloved pet if it comes down with HD before year one. It's also unlikely that I'll want a replacement puppy from the same breeder (who's breeding the same two dogs together) because I know it has a chance of having HD and also because I'm probably not in the position to have a second dog anyways.


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

What is the point of coming on here and asking if there is anything to worry about with the parents? You've had several very knowledgeable people give you great advise and yet, you completely blew them off and called them names. 

It seems like you had your mind set anyhow and nothing anyone could say would change your mind. So you were probably hoping for everyone to say how great they were.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> Talked to the breeder. Gave me a guarantee and wrote and signed it that he stands by his puppies 100%. His teacher breeder sell puppies for $1500 and he started a new line for himself. He brought the mother up to ND to help her get thru the pregnancy. He built a large fence on his lot and its leased land. If this guy didn't care and is only doing it for money. People in Williston would pay $2000 even I would have because that's the going rate. Unregistered English bulldogs in petstore for $2200. His Dogs aren't caged. Dogs live at home with his kids and they are between 4 and 10. The moms temperament is great. The puppies didn't even nip at my 15 month old boy. I met the breeder by accident and was surprised at how much time and money he puts into the pups and only charges $750. I totally understand there are crappy breeders but how do new good breeders start out? Not very popular and with time become reputable or they fail. Time can only tell. Cost of living comment was if he needed money he could have sold them for much more. Also if puppy dies because of what you said Dani... death is part of life and my children should know how it feels otherwise when they get older they won't know how to grieve and understand how the world works ... so death and telling my boys he died is part of being a parent and I have no problem doing it.


I will share my experience. My first GSD Riley (see signature) was from a man who had a fenced yard, mother on site, I saw a picture of the father, and puppies were not kenneled or caged. They were free roaming allowed to interact with the family and yes there were children there. 

I was very happy with Riley. He was a great dog, easy going, easy to train and we had a very strong bond. Then he got sick. He had a disease more than likely due to his breeding. He just could not overcome it and live a healthy life. When we had to PTS it devastated me. Maybe I get more attached to my animals than some, but it's not an easy thing to go through and just explain away. I can't even write this post without tearing up. Riley was only 9 months old. He got a disease that usually only occurs in older dogs. I would have done anything to help and save that dog, but he would have suffered in the long run. 

My new puppy is from a reputable breeder. Due to my very hard learned lesson. He is from titled parents, certified hips, elbows and for breeding. The breeder is always available for questions. I know this does not guarantee he won't have health issues, but I think the deck is stacked more in his favor. The puppies are not inexpensive. They start at $2500.00. Not all the puppies are sold for one set price depending on their sex and quality. 

I don't regret getting Riley. That may sound odd, but he would have gone to somebody. I am in a lot of pain though and I wish he could still be with us. He had a happy life with us even though it was short. We did everything to try and help him. Vet bills were over $5k, so yeah we could have gotten a pedigreed dog for what we ended up spending, but again we did everything to try and help him. Not everyone would have done that, but they are not just dogs to us. they are members of our family. 

So, it's your decision and whatever one you make is fine. There is no right or wrong one. I just wanted to share my experience.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Aramazd said:


> Talked to the breeder. Gave me a guarantee and wrote and signed it that he stands by his puppies 100%. His teacher breeder sell puppies for $1500 and he started a new line for himself. He brought the mother up to ND to help her get thru the pregnancy. He built a large fence on his lot and its leased land. If this guy didn't care and is only doing it for money. People in Williston would pay $2000 even I would have because that's the going rate. Unregistered English bulldogs in petstore for $2200. His Dogs aren't caged. Dogs live at home with his kids and they are between 4 and 10. The moms temperament is great. The puppies didn't even nip at my 15 month old boy. I met the breeder by accident and was surprised at how much time and money he puts into the pups and only charges $750. I totally understand there are crappy breeders but how do new good breeders start out? Not very popular and with time become reputable or they fail. Time can only tell. Cost of living comment was if he needed money he could have sold them for much more. Also if puppy dies because of what you said Dani... death is part of life and my children should know how it feels otherwise when they get older they won't know how to grieve and understand how the world works ... so death and telling my boys he died is part of being a parent and I have no problem doing it.


How do new breeders start out?

They buy quality dogs...title and health test for starters. You are buying from a breeder who has done nothing to prove his dogs are breed worthy. This means he is a back yard breeder....nothing more. Like others have said you take your chances and the chances of having serious issues are ridiculously high in comparison to a breeder who had spent time and money....huge amounts of money, proving to themselves that the dog deserves to breed and pass on his/her genetics. 
The breeder you have chosen has not proven his dogs. Putting up fencing does not make you a reputable breeder. 

You came here asking for advice. You have been given some great advice yet you continue to defend your choice which tells me you really are not interested in hearing opinions from some very knowledgeable people in this forum setting.

Here is my experience and heartache.

My first GSD was beautiful....striking and so very handsome for a dog. I thought like you that I had researched and found a breeder who knew their stuff. Floyd was loving and protective and NOT healthy. He had EPI (do your research) but we still loved him. He had allergies, chewed himself raw and lived wih 24 hour itching but we loved him. He was dog aggressive but we loved him. He was people aggressive to anyone with darker skin but we loved him. We couldn't really take him anywhere because of his dislikes but we loved him. At 7 years young we lost him to cancer...devastation hit my family. My kids now teenagers were besides themselves. My husband could not speak of him for months. I cried in private so as not to set off my kids yet again.
What did I learn? Floyd was not what a GSD should have been. We were robbed of the joy this breed should bring to a home. 
I did much more research this time around. I can say I now have what a GSD should be. 

Please don't rob yourself of the joy these dogs can bring you. The odds are against you with this breeder. In the end it is your choice to make.

When you run into health and temperament issues, rest assured the members of this forum will still rally to help you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good luck with your puppy. May it bring you much joy and have a long healthy life.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Good luck, some of your "reasons" for this being a reputable or responsible breeder make me smile because they are so streched...I half expect your next sentiment to be "BUT the breeder has blue eyes AND he owns a car....so there!!" Just so silly. 

And like saphire said, if/when you have issues, we'll be here .


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks everyone. Sorry Dani that I called you names. I wish you all well with your titled pets.  I'm gonna enjoy my reject and disease ridden puppy. BTW I only asked about the mom and dad if there was anything crazy. One post gave me lots of info and I appreciate that poster. The rest of you bashed me for not taking your advice. I did not ask for advice either. Thank you.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> English Bulldogs puppies go for $2000+ everywhere. Not all breeds/puppies have the same going rate. English bulldogs can't have natural births, and rarely have natural pregnancies. Most times a vet has to collect the sperm and put it into the female because due to the breed's build they cannot tie. Same with birth, their heads are too big to fit through the birthing canal and so they're all c-sectioned out. They also produce smaller litters and therefore the breeders have to charge more in order to cover their costs.
> 
> What else comes with the puppy? What kind of registration? The part about him being able to charge more isn't true...a lot of people that "know" (which is what people here are trying to get you to do) would have know issue going out of state or shipping a puppy. That's the beauty of America, if one area has a higher cost of living, it generally doesn't affect the prices of non-essential goods because its so easy to go to a different area to purchase those goods or ship them in. Prices will only rise if supply is short and supply is generally not short. This is why cost of living does not affect the average price of puppies all over the United States. Your average working line will cost $1000-$1500, and your average show line will be $1500-$2000. Anything more is usually due to a special circumstance (sieger/champion) or a breeder being able to get more out of uneducated people. So...this guy has no choice but to undercut the breeders just outside your area that are charging $1200 or somewhere around there. Trust me...he knows he's breeding "pet" quality dogs and doesn't expect anyone in the know to purchase from him. There's nothing wrong with that...I got a $500 dog from people just like this guy and he's a wonderful dog. Luckily he loves to work and is extremely healthy (have gotten his hips checked).
> 
> Anyways...I know that my explanation of the market for GSDs is extremely simple, but it pretty much is that simple. The fact that he admitted that he's learned, or gotten a dog, from someone that charges $1500 means he understands where he fits into the equation. Personally, his guarantee means nothing to me, I mean, what in the world means "I stand 100% behind my puppies." Does that mean he can guarantee that they are 100% GSD puppies? I really don't put any weight on guarantees when it comes to a dog as its not like I'm really going to get rid of my beloved pet if it comes down with HD before year one. It's also unlikely that I'll want a replacement puppy from the same breeder (who's breeding the same two dogs together) because I know it has a chance of having HD and also because I'm probably not in the position to have a second dog anyways.


Agreed. Its in the warrant he will have to replace or 100% refund if genetic problems. Thanks


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> Talked to the breeder. Gave me a guarantee and wrote and signed it that he stands by his puppies 100%. His teacher breeder sell puppies for $1500 and he started a new line for himself. He brought the mother up to ND to help her get thru the pregnancy. He built a large fence on his lot and its leased land. If this guy didn't care and is only doing it for money. People in Williston would pay $2000 even I would have because that's the going rate. Unregistered English bulldogs in petstore for $2200. His Dogs aren't caged. Dogs live at home with his kids and they are between 4 and 10. The moms temperament is great. The puppies didn't even nip at my 15 month old boy. I met the breeder by accident and was surprised at how much time and money he puts into the pups and only charges $750. I totally understand there are crappy breeders but how do new good breeders start out? Not very popular and with time become reputable or they fail. Time can only tell. Cost of living comment was if he needed money he could have sold them for much more. Also if puppy dies because of what you said Dani... death is part of life and my children should know how it feels otherwise when they get older they won't know how to grieve and understand how the world works ... so death and telling my boys he died is part of being a parent and I have no problem doing it.


Tommy Boy references aside...

I do see what you are saying about cost of living in Williston. I had read/heard on the news that the cost of living (cost of everything) has just skyrocketed since the oil industry came in. I had also heard that it's become more or less the Wild West, but that's neither here nor there.

But here's what I'm not getting - and this may just be because I spent last night out drinking scotch with my pinky in the air.  If COL is really so high that you'd be perfectly willing to pay a premium if you needed to and that's what puppies go for, why not at least consider it? I don't care what people want to buy (breed, lines, etc) - I figure they can do their research and decide on their own what's best for them. But why would you not want to research and purchase the best quality version of X that you can buy for what you're willing and able to pay for?

I'm not asking to be snarky. I'm genuinely wondering what you're trying to argue, because I'm simply so risk averse that I did everything I could to stack the deck in my favor and sometimes don't see perfectly good reasons why someone else might not do the same. I didn't see anyone on this thread as being elitist, just cautious.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Good luck, some of your "reasons" for this being a reputable or responsible breeder make me smile because they are so streched...I half expect your next sentiment to be "BUT the breeder has blue eyes AND he owns a car....so there!!" Just so silly.
> 
> And like saphire said, if/when you have issues, we'll be here .


It sounds like you want him to have problems. Maybe I'm wrong but it does..


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> Tommy Boy references aside...
> 
> I do see what you are saying about cost of living in Williston. I had read/heard on the news that the cost of living (cost of everything) has just skyrocketed since the oil industry came in. I had also heard that it's become more or less the Wild West, but that's neither here nor there.
> 
> ...


What Im getting at is if he wanted too he could charge more. But he doesn't. The breeders out here are gouging. I would have to pay premium just because my address is in Williston. Cars 8k overpriced, hardware stores overpriced. Costs me $75 bucks to blow out my sprinklers. Ioaf of bread $4. I make more than enough to cover this but when I see someone not gouging and putting a bunch of time into his animals. Paying for a fence and house he doesn't own tells me a lot about the quality of person I'm buying from... compared to the rest of town and area.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> What Im getting at is if he wanted too he could charge more. But he doesn't. The breeders out here are gouging. I would have to pay premium just because my address is in Williston. Cars 8k overpriced, hardware stores overpriced. Costs me $75 bucks to blow out my sprinklers. Ioaf of bread $4. I make more than enough to cover this but when I see someone not gouging and putting a bunch of time into his animals. Paying for a fence and house he doesn't own tells me a lot about the quality of person I'm buying from... compared to the rest of town and area.


I see. Yes, that's definitely crazy inflation! So you feel he's doing a good job and you want to reward him for keeping his prices low by paying said price for a puppy?

I can understand that to a point, but I guess my question would still be why one would do that if they didn't also genuinely believe that the puppy was the best match coming from the best source they could find and pay for. And maybe you believe that, in which case anything I'm saying is moot. 

At any rate, it really stinks that you have to be so careful about the price gouging. I can see how that would make it difficult to want to trust people.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Someone needs to post a sticky with the costs incurred by reputable breeders.

Could it be that backyard breeders actually make a bigger profit?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Could it be that backyard breeders actually make a bigger profit?


I'm sure they do.

The only competitors they've got would be commercial breeders.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Someone needs to post a sticky with the costs incurred by reputable breeders


I think this is a great idea - I'd love to hear it from the horse's mouth.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Just the travel costs to all the competitions must be enormous.
And because I hope that others who are on the fence might be reading and learning, I will post my untitled pet's breeder's page.

Hans's half sister, Fiesta, had to prove a lot before she was bred.

A reputable breeder works her behind off with her dogs. 

https://m.facebook.com/pages/Narnia...27&refsrc=http://search.yahoo.com/search&_rdr


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There is a big difference between someone who wants validation for a decision already made....and someone who wants to understand what the quality, caliber value is of a breeding pair. When you ask for an opinion, you are going to get more information than you realize and that information is based on the background and knowledge of the responders. It is not always going to be information that validates your choices or what you want to hear. Everyone here has GSDs...some are breeders, some are novices, and some are experienced owners.

The first thing I ask people is 'just because you only want a pet - why do you want a low quality animal? why do you want to risk health and temperament problems? *Just a pet* is a very important role for any dog, and good health and temperament are just as, if not more, important for a family who is not GSD/dog savvy and experienced....too many pets from backyard breeders end up with issues that land them in a shelter or a vets office for euthanasia or just plain dumped or neglected and abused tied to a tree.....

In any market - *anywhere* - this is a litter with little to no known credentials....the PDB listing says both Penn Hip and SV ratings - there is no PROOF of either on the website...with OFA, you can look up dogs and see the proof of their ratings, along with their siblings, parents, etc. The breeding pair is just around two years old and already have 2 litters with 12 progeny listed....in this area, this is a 350-500 dollar litter...$750 is high for the lack of credentials on the parents overall.

To the OP - _*all economic geographical arguments aside*_....what an easy way to pick up an extra 9-10 thousand bucks in a year....in ANY area....buy two puppies and just breed them and sell their puppies. Fencing the yard proves what?? Easier to just put the dogs out in the fence and let them exercise themselves and than to train them and interact with them - just let them out and not have to do anything with them. 

this is not responsible breeding by anyone's standard. Dogs bred just around a year old when they are still babies, and then rebred again. Dogs with a mixed bag pedigree where there are titled/known kennels no closer than 3 generation.

Supporting this type of breeder enables and encourages them to keep pumping out litters...the poor female was never allowed to mature before becoming a mother and her own life will be shortened if she continues to be bred every heat. That is not responsible ownership. 

I am sorry that you have been so offended by so many people here. No one means to intentionally put you on the defensive....just that there are so many backyard breeders cashing in on a quick buck and it is generally to the detriment of the breed and to the breeding dogs they use....in today's society with so many breed bans, litigious people, overpopulation of animals in general, there is a great deal of passion here regarding poor breeding practices. Breeding randomly is not the way to start breeding. Learning about the breed, learning about character and temperament and structure and type should be prerequisites to breeding any breed of dog...that is how someone should start out before breeding.

Lee


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I'll tell you why I went to that breeder. 
I wanted a stable GSD who I could trust not to rip my face off.

At the time, I had two boys under ten, plus a one year old nephew and five year old niece visiting. 
I was afraid to go to someone who just threw two random dogs together. I wanted to be sure that the dog would have the true character of a German Shepherd, not just look like one.

This is a powerful dog. If he wants to, he can kill you. 
I wanted to make sure, first and foremost, that the dog I brought into my home didn't have a temperament problem, because there are many GSDs out there who are downright dangerous.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

:thumbup:


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> It sounds like you want him to have problems. Maybe I'm wrong but it does..


I seriously doubt that^^^. Sometimes the info we don't want to hear can come across like your being lumped on the head, but there is no ill will. 

GSDs unfortunately have a long list of potential health issues and starting out with dog that comes from very knowledgable and reputable breeder stacks the odds in your favor & you may avoid having to deal with them. My Zoey is a BYB, great dog, but the money spent on treatment for her allergies could have bought me two of those $2k dogs and she is only 3 yrs old. I wouldn't trade her for the world, but you get the idea how health problems can quickly erase any savings on the initial puppy price.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> I'll tell you why I went to that breeder.
> I wanted a stable GSD who I could trust not to rip my face off.
> 
> At the time, I had two boys under ten, plus a one year old nephew and five year old niece visiting.
> ...


I totally agree re: the "you don't want a dangerous dog to hurt you and yours" point.

I would add that I don't want to risk a DOG'S life by bringing in an animal that might not be stable, might not be a dog I can live with. Because then if the dog can't stay with me, who suffers? The dog. I have an ethical problem with that, for myself.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> I totally agree re: the "you don't want a dangerous dog to hurt you and yours" point.
> 
> I would add that I don't want to risk a DOG'S life by bringing in an animal that might not be stable, might not be a dog I can live with. Because then if the dog can't stay with me, who suffers? The dog. I have an ethical problem with that, for myself.
> 
> ...


Again not disagreeing with any of those points. Only asking an opinion of the mom and dad is you don't know then that's all I needed.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> Again not disagreeing with any of those points. Only asking an opinion of the mom and dad is you don't know then that's all I needed.


Do you not see that everything everyone has said was in reply to your question regarding our opinion of the mom and dad?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Aramazd said:


> Again not disagreeing with any of those points. Only asking an opinion of the mom and dad is you don't know then that's all I needed.


IMO since the mom and dad have not been proven as good representatives of the breed, they should not have been bred. Puppies from them will only contribute to the over population of dogs that fill shelters and foster homes with unwanted dogs. 

Is that what your looking for?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Saphire said:


> IMO since the mom and dad have not been proven as good representatives of the breed, they should not have been bred. Puppies from them will only contribute to the over population of dogs that fill shelters and foster homes with unwanted dogs.
> 
> Is that what your looking for?


That works. Thanks for your opinion not some ideology.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> Again not disagreeing with any of those points. Only asking an opinion of the mom and dad is you don't know then that's all I needed.


Sorry. I shouldn't have derailed. I thought Sunflowers raised an interesting point in general and I just expanded on it. I honestly wasn't considering your situation at all when I read or responded to her post; I was just talking.

I really do apologize for taking things off on a tangent without thinking. It was rude of me, and I'm sorry.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> Sorry. I shouldn't have derailed. I thought Sunflowers raised an interesting point in general and I just expanded on it. I honestly wasn't considering your situation at all when I read or responded to her post; I was just talking.
> 
> I really do apologize for taking things off on a tangent without thinking. It was rude of me, and I'm sorry.
> 
> ...


No Worries. 

Ok So I did a bit of research. Just to see if my little one comes from a terrible line of rejected, disease ridden dogs. So this is what I found.

The Dams Parents come from here policepups.com (Excalibur is her dad, Natalie mom)

The Sires Parents come from here policepups.com (Ramses is his dad, Cant find his mom though, or any information where its from, but it looks like she has mated with the sires from Policepups.com breeder)


That's all I could find out using the good old Google.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh god...policepups.com. What a joke. Sorry, its actually in my area, I've met a bunch of the dogs that come from there. They don't do anything, they just buy dogs and breed them. None of their dogs have ever been K9s. The whole police thing is a marketing ploy because they breed GSDs and most police dogs are GSDs.

It's not even a good kennel to start your breeding program from. They really don't know their lines, and just offer stud dogs for who ever is willing to pay them money. I've also known of times when they take money from unknowing people without signing any kind of contract.

Again...from an economic standpoint, goods that are wants...are not affected by cost of living. Therefore...dogs are not affected by cost of living. If you think dogs are affected by cost of living...anything bred in or around NYC would cost $10,000. It doesn't. It costs just as much as it does in the middle of No Where, Wisconsin. Want goods are too easy to ship in and order online to be affected by cost of living. Things like groceries, cars, gas, housing, ect, have a more limited supply and controlled market and therefore are affected by cost of living.

So if you keep wanting to use the fact that he charges $750 because he's nice, its not true. he charges $750 because he knows that anyone that wants to/can spend $1200+ on a dog, will do some more research and easily ship a dog in. PS...its not 7 hours to your next closest GSD breeder...trust me on that one. It might look like its 7 hours to the next breeder based on your google search, but they're everywhere. And actually, they're usually out in the middle of no where and don't advertise on the internet. I'm thinking only in Alaska are there not at least 10 people breeding GSDs in a two hour radius of anywhere on the map. And out of those 10, at least 3 are probably doing it right and the other 7 are charging $500 or less.

You've already put in a deposit so you're not going to change your mind. But you can try and find other breeders by looking at the GSDCA list of breeders, or looking up a local GSD club and seeing how many breeders are part of that club.

Your dog has a slightly higher chance of having issues. But its also has a very good chance of not having any problems. From what you posted about where the parents come from, I'd be worried about temperament problems. I do have experience seeing what that "kennel" has produced as some of the dogs end up at my training facility, and I can tell you that I have seen a lot of dog reactive dogs come out of their lines or just inability to make proper breeding matches. The fact that you have those dogs on both side of the pedigree...would really worry me. Policedogs.com imports titled dogs from Germany and pretty much offers stud service to anyone that will pay them for it. They don't screen the females and see how well the pedigrees match. That's why you probably can't find any information on the dam, the dams are usually from people around here that just want to produce a litter or two of puppies without titling/health certifications either.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

WateryTart said:


> Tommy Boy references aside...
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I'm glad that I'm not the only person who has Tommy Boy pop into their head when someone starts talking about guarantees


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

honestly, think of it this way. It costs a certain amount of money to simply feed the dogs and raise, vet, and care for the litter. That amount is infinitesimal compared to the amount it takes to title and prove dogs for working ability and health testing (for example, I went to a UKC show this past weekend and spent over $300 not counting the time off work). 
He isn't charging that much less than a reputable breeder, only a few hundred dollars per puppy. He is actually making a much larger profit than those breeders whom you claim are "gauging"
The pups that he is selling are actually the same quality that you can get from rescue or the animal shelter - at 1/7 of the price that he is charging. So, looking at that idea, who is actually "gauging" their customers?

ETA: what is the best thing about going to a responsible breeder? the customer support that you receive. If you end up with a health, temperament, or even a training question, will this man be able to answer those questions? Will he help with training issues and take back the pup if you can't handle it?
What exactly does he guarantee and what is required for you to activate that guarantee?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Oh god...policepups.com. What a joke. Sorry, its actually in my area, I've met a bunch of the dogs that come from there. They don't do anything, they just buy dogs and breed them. None of their dogs have ever been K9s. The whole police thing is a marketing ploy because they breed GSDs and most police dogs are GSDs.
> 
> It's not even a good kennel to start your breeding program from. They really don't know their lines, and just offer stud dogs for who ever is willing to pay them money. I've also known of times when they take money from unknowing people without signing any kind of contract.
> 
> ...


Do you have proof or is this your opinion? I'm curious since your saying this other breeder is a piece of ****.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Wolfstraum's post, Saphire's, and martemchik's post are all excellent. However, I suspect the OP will continue on this path, to "prove" everyone wrong. Sometimes people get lucky. 

I know I wish I had known far more when I got my GSD, and I happen to have a 'good' one. Still doesn't mean that I don't wish I had found this forum first. I am thankful I now know what I want and what to look for, and where. 

People are trying to help you avoid potential issues and heartbreak. You kind of remind me of my teenagers: They come up with an idea that they are really attached to. When they come to me to run it by me, and I give them my honest opinion, and point out the potential issues, they insist "this will be different". "But I have x to prove it". "But I won't be one of those ones". 

Afterward, they always say "MOM! Why did you 'let' me do that!"

Sigh. Yes, I 'let' them do it.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Wolfstraum's post, Saphire's, and martemchik's post are all excellent. However, I suspect the OP will continue on this path, to "prove" everyone wrong. Sometimes people get lucky.


Yep, if eight pages of not one single person saying "hey this is a good idea" has done the trick, it's not happening.

These are the only threads where everyone on the forum can reach the same opinion and they're the only ones where that doesn't matter.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

You are going to do exactly what you want to do, that is your choice. You came here and asked for opinions, and dont like what your hearing. You are looking for someone to agree with and validate what your doing. 

I don't think you will find that here

..BUT, again, this is your money , your choice, it won't affect any of us because you will be the one living with this puppy.

I do think this post by Lies, bears repeating (as well as others)..



> Well, I stand by my concern that they bred the sired before he was even ONE year old. If these dogs are such great family pets WHY are the breeding puppies?!? This has nothing to do with price or being elitist. ANY breeder should be able to tell you WHY they are breeding dog A to dog B (and this breeder appears to be doing so repeatedly...what is so stellar about the original litter that they are repeating it 2, 3 times?). Why are they breeding such young dogs with no titles and questionable health certificates? I say "questionable" because I cannot find records of the hip ratings these dogs supposedly have. It's your choice, your money but personally even with a budget of $750 I think you could do better...


What SHE posted would be "my" concern..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

8 pages and the OP is not going to ask the breeder why they are breeding a puppy (sorry, if anything looks to me like it's breeding for $$$ it is breeding unproven puppies and selling them for $750 each!) or why the parents have no titles to speak of...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> You are going to do exactly what you want to do, that is your choice. You came here and asked for opinions, and dont like what your hearing. You are looking for someone to agree with and validate what your doing.
> 
> I don't think you will find that here
> 
> ...


Yes, this too. Any dog being bred at a year old, is immediately suspicious to me. (I know these dogs are 2, just that they've already been bred twice).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lies, honestly, I don't think he cares why the breeder is breeding..He has puppies, they are nearby, likes the guy, done deal


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> Do you have proof or is this your opinion? I'm curious since your saying this other breeder is a piece of ****.


Yes, I have proof. I live in the area code that policedogs.com is located. I've seen/dealt with plenty of dogs that have come from that kennel. I'm an officer of the GSD Club of Wisconsin, which has more than 200 members. In the last 3 years I have observed/trained with more GSDs than most people will do in a lifetime (only some other forum members have probably seen more). Enough dogs have come from some sort of connection with that website/breeder.

I usually don't have first hand experience with the dogs/kennel that someone talks about. It's why I usually don't comment on "what do you think of this breeder threads." And even on this one...I just wanted to point out the economics of the situation and not on the actual breeder you're going to. I don't know HIS two dogs, or what he's produced in the past, but I know that this kennel has produced some questionable dogs and I'm not afraid to tell people this. I'm sure they've also produced plenty of dogs that don't have any problems, but I know for a fact they breed pretty much indiscriminately to anyone with a check book and a female GSD.

I don't know anything about the breeder you're going to but I do believe his dogs are overpriced...and not due to where he's breeding. I do have experience with that pedigree and those lines and therefore I wouldn't touch those dogs with a ten foot pole. If I didn't have my last 3 years of training at my club, and meeting some of those dogs, I would probably be pretty likely to purchase a dog from there as they are fantastic looking dogs and are generally priced less than the competition (but not anymore since I trial my dogs and want to know exactly what I'm getting).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

RocketDog said:


> Wolfstraum's post, Saphire's, and martemchik's post are all excellent. However, I suspect the OP will continue on this path, to "prove" everyone wrong. Sometimes people get lucky.


Yeah its true...we get lucky. I have a dog that didn't come from a reputable breeder, no health certs, no titles in the past 2 generations. I have a great temperament, great health, no problems what so ever. There are a lot of people like me, who get lucky, and keep going to less than stellar breeders and keep getting lucky. Truth is...not all BYB produce terrible dogs.

I'll never go to a breeder like that again because I've now learned and have other goals for my dogs. But many never change and keep getting lucky.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Yeah its true...we get lucky. I have a dog that didn't come from a reputable breeder, no health certs, no titles in the past 2 generations. I have a great temperament, great health, no problems what so ever. There are a lot of people like me, who get lucky, and keep going to less than stellar breeders and keep getting lucky. Truth is...not all BYB produce terrible dogs.
> 
> I'll never go to a breeder like that again because I've now learned and have other goals for my dogs. But many never change and keep getting lucky.


With all of the issues GSD's can have, I am willing to bet a Jolly ball that for every healthy no issue GSD from a byb ...there are double or more that were not so lucky.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ok. So going to play devils advocate here. I have already posted my opinion on this pairing and stand by it. Not a breeder I would get a dog from or parents I would want siring my future companion. 

But here's the rub, 

Yes, BYB sometimes produce crud dogs. As do reputable breeders. 

That said. GSD are the 3rd most registered dog in the USA. That means there are a boatload out there. But the statistics for major attacks or aggression are sigificantly less than other breeds. So, yes, there are bad dogs out there. But my point is, not as many unmanageable ones as people would like to believe. Are they perfect? No. Are they free if health issues? No. But are they horrible? No. 

So if we say that 30% of dogs from " good breeders" end up as solid working/sport dogs, then can we say that 30% of BYB dogs end up with issues? Seeing as there is ZERO true statistics on either, I think that reasonable. 

I have met and worked dogs from super good breeders and BYB alike. The percentage of either being perfect dogs are comparable. Yes, you stack the odds in your favour by picking a pup from known/ proven parentage. But there are many many many dogs that come from less than that that are great dogs. I know plenty personally. I also know a lot of " well bred" dogs that are nerve bag, hyper prey, sharp dogs. 

So is this a breeding I would go for, No. But does it mean the pups will be horrible, No. 

I wish the OP the best with their pup. I wish a lifetime of healthy happy joy. I really do. There is no way to guarantee temperament or health we do the best we can. 

To make sure I set the record straight, I have gotten dogs from many different types if breeders, and have had great experiences with all of them. They have all had some level of medical or personality quirk. But as an owner and handler I have dealt with all if them. 

I don't believe in supporting a BYB or less than ethical breeder, but I am not going to judge or tell someone that their pup us bound to be a disaster because if where they got it. I don't think the evidence supports that. Based on the numbers at hand. If we agree that 50% of GSD in this country come from BYB, then based in that and what has been intimated, 50% of GSD in this country would be aggressive, dysplastic, fear biting, DA, HA, monsters. But they are not. 

Just saying. 


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> I just need an opinion on this Sire and Dam Our Dogs
> 
> I am getting a puppy from this on Monday, anything I should be worried about?


Yes, there is a lot you should be worried about.

First of all, I don't like the male's conformation. He's leggy, rather light on bone, and has a roached back, so I wonder why the breeder chose this male to breed to... especially at such a young age. 

The female looks pretty in the picture, but it's impossible to see her conformation when she's lying down.

As for the pedigrees, I don't know the individual dogs, but the breeder is doing some linebreeding (which is a fancy way of saying "inbreeding"). I would want to know WHY the breeder is doing that, what his goals are for this breeding, and I would certainly want to know everything I could about Limonite and Iron. When you inbreed like that, you can concentrate hidden traits that "skip a generation". The particular dogs only have very basic titles, so why has the breeder chosen to inbreed with them? Breeders will often linebreed on certain dogs that are highly accomplished, have excellent hips, or other qualities that make their genes extremely desirable. So what is it about Limon and Iron that the breeder wants to concentrate?

Whether the breeder is doing it for the money or not is sort of beside the point, but I would want to know *why* he is breeding GSDs. What are his goals and why has he chosen the dogs that he has? What does he hope to accomplish in his program, what is he breeding for? What have his prior litters gone on to accomplish? Does he really know what he is doing? Or is he just selling for the pet market?

It may not seem important because you aren't going to show or compete with your dog, but you want a HEALTHY dog, and most of all you want a good TEMPERAMENT. Temperament is one of the breed's biggest problems, and it's because a lot of people just throw a dog and a bitch together without any understanding of what the combination will produce... and they sell puppies for half the price of reputable breeders. The fact that the dogs are not titled doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with them, but if the breeder does not do any training, trialing, work or activities with his breeding dogs, temperament faults may not be seen, and these faults may be passed on to the offspring. It's not like mixing paint where what you see is what you get.

Say, for example, someone has a female they want to breed, and she is sweet, but a little bit shy. It might seem logical to breed her to a male who is bold, confident, and somewhat aggressive, so that his confidence would cancel out her shyness, and her sweetness would balance his aggression. However, this is a recipe for disaster. With such a breeding you are almost guaranteed to get the worst of both parents--fear biters--instead of solid temperament and strong nerves.

Breeding is an art, and it's not for amateurs. I have no idea how long this breeder has been doing it, but judging only by the website, it seems like they just have a couple of dogs that they decided to breed to one another, for whatever reason, and sell the puppies at half the price of a reputable breeder in order to get them sold quickly.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Saphire said:


> With all of the issues GSD's can have, I am willing to bet a Jolly ball that for every healthy no issue GSD from a byb ...there are double or more that were not so lucky.


You just lost a jolly ball. Sorry, but that's just not true. If there were that many GSDs with problems, we'd have a lot more GSDs in the news. Health problems...they happen, but at the end of the day most BYB use GSDs that come from pretty good lines. It's pretty hard to find a GSD that doesn't have either a Schutzhund title or an AKC championship and a OFA rating within the last 3 or 4 generations.

If this were true...then 2/3 GSDs that walk into my club would probably be unstable messes or have huge health problems, which doesn't happen. I know sometimes when you sit on this forum, or have your own limited experience you believe that BYB just produce issue dogs...but I've seen plenty of BYB dogs that I wouldn't consider having any issues. Are they perfect examples of the breed...far from it...but they don't have any problems that would prevent them from being fine family pets.

I've seen plenty of dogs with issues or dogs that were placed in homes that they didn't belong in come from what this forum would consider reputable. Dogs that come from health certified and titled parents that are unstable in more ways than one. So if I were as biased, or jaded as you I'd be making statements like..."for every one good dog a reputable breeder produces, there are twice as many that have problems." But that's not true as well. I'm talking about people that have been doing it for 20+ years, seem to know what they're talking about, have some pretty good dogs, but still produce things that don't work out the way they've planned.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I disagree. Tons of by GSD's that cannot be registered nevermind titles.
I don't believe for a second that most byb dogs come from good stock.
A reputable breeder isn't pumping out dogs with health and temperment issues. Might be fair to say that byb outnumber reputable breeders ten fold.
My limited experience is not from this forum but from life experience. I came from the show world so please don't assume my life has been limited to dogs here on this forum as I have been apart of the dog world for 25 years.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So if BYB outnumber reputable breeders by 10 times...and they produce twice as many bad dogs as they do good...do you really see that many dogs with problems?

How many GSD do you see on a weekly basis? How many of those can you truly say have terrible health problems, or have horrible temperaments that don't allow them to be perfectly happy pets? How many GSD in the show ring don't make perfectly fine pets that can easily be lived with without worries? What kind of health problems are so prominent in the breed that dogs are being put down for them on a regular basis?

You're right about the fact that there are way more BYB than what this forum accepts as reputable breeders. But they're not producing horrible, sickly, poor tempered dogs. I'm an officer of the GSD Club of Wisconsin. If you google "german shepherd training Wisconsin" our website is the first one that pops up. We don't get many phone calls about dogs with problems. We don't get many dogs and people that come to us looking for help because their dog is a complete basket case. Many times...the dog just needs to have some basic obedience training and its fine. The majority of the breeders there are AKC show breeders, are their dogs the next great K9? No. But they make perfectly happy, healthy, pets. Do their dogs have quirks that sometimes come out when they won't walk over certain terrains? I've seen it. But how often is their dog asked to walk over a tarp or a grate like in the GSDCA Temperament Test?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The POINT is who do you want to support???? A breeder that has no clue or goal(other than $ and ego) in what they are producing, or one that invests time to do their pedigree research, health test, trains and hopefully gets titles on their dogs so they know the strengths and weakenesses, and has the passion to produce a dog(whatever breed, not just the GSD) that will keep the breed going in a positive direction health and temperament wise. 
$200 dollar deposit should be stupid tax in this case, JMO.

Do some research before you buy out of convenience.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> most BYB use GSDs that come from pretty good lines.


You must have different BYBs in your area than we do.



> If this were true...then 2/3 GSDs that walk into my club would probably be unstable messes or have huge health problems, which doesn't happen.


But you are only seeing one small demographic--the people who bring their dogs to your club. When I worked in the veterinary field (granted this was 20-some years ago) 2 out of 3 GSDs we saw *did* have huge temperament and health problems. Nowadays, the GSDs I see for grooming are mostly from a big local WGSL kennel, and they are reasonably stable... some are a bit neurotic, but not dangerously so. The area veterinarians see a much larger demographic than I do, and they are always amazed when I bring in my GSDs and they *aren't* a neurotic, dysplastic mess. 

Because of poor breeding practices and poor ownership, the breed has a terrible reputation with pet professionals. We as GSD lovers tend to have an understanding soft spot with the breed, so we tend not to dread them, but many vets do.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

A person who owns a problematic GSD will be too busy taking it to the vet and does not have time for the club.
And the really aggressive ones get put down or are dumped.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

This is totally anecdotal so probably largely irrelevant, but a friend of my daughter's has a six month old German Shepherd with, from what I understand, a slightly less than ideal temperament. It's a biting machine. DD says its afraid of everything. Now can this be attributable to lack of training on the family's part? Could very well be. But the young girl also told me that they had made an agreement (when they took him home) with the breeder to bring him back on his first birthday to breed him with another one of their females. Now this is a dog that is barely 6 months old and already has a breeding planned. It doesn't seem to me that they're breeding with clear knowledge; it would appear that theyre breeding solely to produce puppies.

Additionally, I happened to meet another puppy from the same breeder on Halloween night in a completely different neighborhood. This dog was four and a half months old and was completely frightened out of its wits by all the Halloween decorations and the people walking around. Again this could be potentially because they don't understand how to introduce a puppy to things, but I can say that my dog was born in June, and I took him to an immensely popular and busy neighborhood that October on Halloween, with thousands of people walking around and noise and lights like you wouldn't believe. And he was completely rocksolid even at that young age. 

Of course even reputable breeders will put together combinations that are not what they hoped for. But, when the above scenario takes place, such as the OP describes, it's a crapshoot plain and simple. Maybe they'll get lucky and maybe they won't. But breeding dogs that have not shown whether they have the genetic traits worthy of passing on, like freestep pointed out, is nothing but a roll of the dice.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> A person who owns a problematic GSD will be too busy taking it to the vet and does not have time for the club.
> And the really aggressive ones get put down or are dumped.


Yeah, my suspicion is that people who even bother to go to a breed club (or a training club, for that matter) are already uncommonly dedicated owners. There aren't many "problematic" dogs at my training club -- I think Pongu's pretty much the worst we've got outside the basic pet manners classes -- but that's just because most of the people who care enough to go to advanced training don't have seriously problematic dogs.

I would guess that vets/vet techs, dog walkers, and groomers see a more representative range of dogs and owners in their localities.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I'd like to know what the majority of vets think about this breed. They have to deal with both the health and temperament aspect of this breed. The ones I've talked to about this over the years have all said how many poor GSD's they see in their office with either health or temperament issues or just a combo of both. I'd assume the majority aren't coming from top notch breeders.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Ok. So going to play devils advocate here. I have already posted my opinion on this pairing and stand by it. Not a breeder I would get a dog from or parents I would want siring my future companion.
> 
> But here's the rub,
> 
> ...


I've thought about this before after looking through bite statistics. For as many gsds that are out there and a high number being BYB, gsds make up a fairly small number of the incidents, at least from the info I've seen.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

First of all...my point was that if they do have temperament issues, you'd think they'd look up a training place first and not head to their vet. Most people look at a vet for medical issues not behavioral problems. If they're not at least going to do that, then they'll put the dog down? I could care less about those owners. My club is 20 minutes outside the largest city in Wisconsin, and we have almost 300 members. And probably 2-3 dogs on average per owner or household. So you're talking 600 or so dogs. I guess that's a small piece of the population. Much smaller than the amount of GSDs that walk through a single vet practice in a given year...right? Oh and I guess they shouldn't be going to our club since that's the advice this forum gives to EVERY SINGLE poster that comes on this forum and asked about behavioral problems with their dog...

Anyways...simple math. 10 times more BYB than reputable breeders. 2/3 of the BYB dogs are problem dogs. So to make things simple...7 dogs have problems. That means 7/11 GSD (assuming that reputable breeders don't produce anything with problems...cause they never do) have issues. Can you all truthfully tell me that 7 out of 11 GSDs in this country have such huge temperament issues that they can't pass for decent family pets? That they can't be trusted around other people, children, or society in general? Lets keep blowing the BYB problem out of proportion.

At the vet practice...did you ask all the owners where they got their dog from? Did you check all their pedigrees to make sure that the problem dogs did come from BYB or did you just assume that because they had problems they HAD to come from BYB? My vet never asked to see my dog's pedigree. He's never even asked about the breeder I got him from. Probably means he's a ****ty vet... Or did the people just talk really poorly of their breeder, blaming them for all their dog's issues, that you assumed that the breeder had to be bad?

Would I ever want to support a BYB again? No. I'm not saying anyone should. But to be blowing the current state of our breed so far out of proportion is just ridiculous. With what is known about the pedigree of the current OP, I can tell you that the risk of issues is higher because I have dealt with those dogs. But to just group all BYB in one swoop and say everything they produce is going to be a dysplastic basket case is a joke. To even say 50% of their dogs are problematic is NOT what I have witnessed...but again, my sample is too small to make any kind of assumptions and everyone else has way more experience and sees way more dogs than I do in a given year so they can make a much better assumption of what is the true amount of dogs with problems.

I don't know if I've said this...but my club is like 95% ASL...maybe we should hit that topic as well in this thread? I'm sure vets dread dealing with the majority of large breeds that are known to be aggressive. And all the other ones that are known to be breeding grounds for cancer. The truth is, there are a lot of ****ty owners out there that don't know how to manage very small temperamental issues that end up growing into bigger problems, especially in the stress filled environment of the veterinary clinic.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I think we have to keep in kind that this board is full of people who take their personal time to talk about their dogs. That in itself is probably not the norm. I would hazard a guess that's it's the minority. 

And a good number of regular posters are very active in dog sports, regular training, showing or something else involving their dogs on a very regular basis. 

And the posters coming on here for help are having big issues. It quickly skews the discussion and our perception of the problem. 

A very large majority of people are not on here looking for advice, lots of people never have the types if serious issues we see posted about on this board. This board is skewed by it's very nature. 

I work with a repro vet. I see plenty of GSD coming through from reputable breeders that I don't think should be bred. And I see BYB breeders as well. Usually their dogs don't have the look or drive I want in a dog. But they have all been "nice" dogs. Nicer than some of the working dogs that come through. 

I am not saying I support BYB. I don't. I just think we have to be realistic. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The BYB argument seems kind of pointless. There's hardly any information to go on and we don't know how the previous litters turned out.

If it makes me an "elitist" so be it, but the OP asked about the parents and my answer is, before I would consider making a deposit on this litter, the breeder would have to explain to me why the male was bred before he was a year old, what training and titles these dogs have, and what qualities make this specific combination a good pairing. In fact those are questions I'd ask any breeder (other than the sire being so young) and would be something I'd ask off the bat, not after making a deposit. I feel like those questions are not judging dogs based on PDB photo, do not take into account how much the puppies cost or should cost, nor are they accusing the breeder of being a BYB.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

All other "BYB or not" arguments aside, the biggest deal breaker for me is that they are breeding BABIES. The sire being less than a year old at the time of the first litter means it was either a really shady intentional breeding (sorry, but you don't know much about the dog's health or temperament at that age), or an "oops" breeding, which is also incredibly irresponsible. Definitely not someone I would want to purchase a pup from.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Gsdsar, one small point: a lot of genetic problems are determined by a single simple recessive. Traits like solid working ability are usually not. It's easier to get harmful genetic mutations than beneficial ones. 

That's all I have to say. This has been an interesting thread.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'd like to know what the majority of vets think about this breed. They have to deal with both the health and temperament aspect of this breed. The ones I've talked to about this over the years have all said how many poor GSD's they see in their office with either health or temperament issues or just a combo of both. I'd assume the majority aren't coming from top notch breeders.


Depends on how you define "top notch" I guess. I tend to evaluate breeders based more on their intent rather than output. Many breeders I think are great people, very experienced and knowledgable in this breed, highly respected and have good intent when breeding (having worked this breed and spent decades developing their programs) have produced dogs here and there with softer temperament, back issues, mega-E, bad hips, ED, etc. I still focus more on the combination of lines, the temperament, the actual behavior and physical abilities of the breeding dogs in front of me. These are things that a vet does not know how to assess. They only see dogs with medical problems.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Liesje said:


> The BYB argument seems kind of pointless. There's hardly any information to go on and we don't know how the previous litters turned out.
> 
> If it makes me an "elitist" so be it, but the OP asked about the parents and my answer is, before I would consider making a deposit on this litter, the breeder would have to explain to me why the male was bred before he was a year old, what training and titles these dogs have, and what qualities make this specific combination a good pairing. In fact those are questions I'd ask any breeder (other than the sire being so young) and would be something I'd ask off the bat, not after making a deposit. I feel like those questions are not judging dogs based on PDB photo, do not take into account how much the puppies cost or should cost, nor are they accusing the breeder of being a BYB.


I'm meeting with him today. I'll ask and get back to you all. Breeder did say to me that he was supprised at the litter of 14. He also was over open with me on their temperament. I met the Dam. Sire is back home in Indiana. He is going to get me updated photos of him. The Sam was a sweet dog. Very kind to my kids and not overly protective if the pups when they played. I'll also post updated photos. Breeder lives close yo us. If any problems I'll be knocking on his door.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks, I'm really curious. Male GSDs are not physically or mentally mature until 2, sometimes even 3-4 years. My own male changed physically from age 3-4 and wasn't bred for the first time until he was almost 5. I just can't fathom any respectable reason why a 9 month old was bred but I'd be interested to hear what they say...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Liesje said:


> I just can't fathom any respectable reason why a 9 month old was bred but I'd be interested to hear what they say...


There is no respectable reason.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lhczth said:


> There is no respectable reason.


Exactly. My guess is "oops."


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> No Worries.
> 
> Ok So I did a bit of research. Just to see if my little one comes from a terrible line of rejected, disease ridden dogs. So this is what I found.
> 
> ...


Found out mom on sires end is from Haus Hagen Kennels in WI.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not think that we on this site are a good reprentative snap shot of GSD owners on the whole.

I think people are more likely to come to such a site if they are having difficulties with a dog, than if their dog was normal -- had health and behavior issues that are dealt with in a reasonable timeframe by a veterinarian/set of training classes. 

And a lot are on here who are obsessed with dogs/the breed, have multiple shepherds, and do stuff with them, even it is just classes to reach a CGC. 

I hear all the time, "but I just want a pet, I am not going to show." What you need for a pet is good temperament and good health. It costs just as much to raise the pet-quality puppies in a litter as it costs to raise the show-quality one, or the working-prospect. Some working dogs do spend a good portion of their lives working, but most of the dogs produced for trialing and show will be pets first. So those traits that make excellent pets are not overlooked in these dogs. 

I think that the fact that you can get a good dog from a BYB is the reason they will always be in existence. You can get burned, certainly, but you can also get a good dog. 

If I had to wager a guess, I would guess that Bybs probably produce 70 - 80% dogs who do not fall below the normal range for health and temperament. While excellent breeders might produce more like 94-97% that do not fall below the normal range. Of course, the normal range would have to be defined. For example, if hip dysplasia is showing no symptoms, would it fall within the normal range because most pet owners would not be aware of it, as they haven't checked the hips, etc. 

Lastly, I don't know if it is a good idea to encourage someone to drop their deposit, as "stupid tax." If a breeder has a litter of 12 puppies and 3 people dropped their $200 deposit and ran for the hills. Those 3 puppies will still go for $750 (that's cheap and a lot of people will be willing to gamble), so instead of making 9k on the litter, the breeder is now making 9.6k on the litter.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Are you saying you believe byb's have a 70-80% success rate with regards to their breedings having good health and temperment?

Reputable breeders just 10% higher success rate than the average byb?

I do NOT believe that a byb can breed a high % of good dogs without ever proving those dogs first. I DO believe they can get lucky but not to the tune of 70-80%.

I personally don't care if the OP follows through on the purchase but should he become not comfortable with this puppy he should absolutely walk away from his deposit and move on. I wouldn't think twice about how much profit this byb makes off breeding his puppies to get puppies nor would I consider myself to have helped him. I would chalk it up to educating myself and preferring to support a respected breeder instead.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Are you saying you believe byb's have a 70-80% success rate with regards to their breedings having good health and temperment?
> 
> Reputable breeders just 10% higher success rate than the average byb?
> 
> ...



Yep, add to that the fact that many BYB-buyers wouldn't know a temperament issue if it hit them in the face (how many times have we heard "oh, he's just so protective/territorial/etc"?).

This breeder has shady breeding practices, and the dogs being used are the products of shady breeding practices (I can't even get over how much "policepups.com" grinds my gears). The profit made, or not, etc is all secondary. I would be concerned about the "customer support" aspect down the lines from someone with questionable ethics.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> For example, if hip dysplasia is showing no symptoms, would it fall within the normal range because most pet owners would not be aware of it, as they haven't checked the hips, etc.


NEVER should hip dysplasia be considered normal...whether they are symptomatic or not.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Saphire said:


> Are you saying you believe byb's have a 70-80% success rate with regards to their breedings having good health and temperment?


"good" is different from "not below normal" (i.e., mediocre).

I'll agree with selzer's definition and use of terms. I think martemchik makes good points too: most BYB dogs _aren't_ disasters. Most of them are not what _I'd_ want in a dog, but I'm not a normal pet owner either.

It really comes down to whether you want to support responsible breeding practices and the betterment of the breed or you want to undercut those things by incentivizing the ignorant and/or mercenary. Buying a dog (vs. adopting one) means making one of those two choices.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I think it comes down to personal experience.

If you have at some time in your life either purchased a dog from a byb or know someone who has and those dogs were awesome dogs with no issues, your more likely to believe byb are not so bad.

We have knowledgeable members here that are byb and they too will defend such setups.

Years ago I saved a Siberian Husky who came from a puppymill in Missouri. She had many issues, one being EPI wMich is not common to that breed. She outlived all my well bred Huskies from very respected breeder. I lost her when she was just shy of 15 so I get it.

I know there are success stories from less than desirable breeders I just refuse to believe they are producing alot of dogs that are healthy both physical and temperament. With a breed such as the GSD of which in my mind is riddled with more issues than many other breeds, you can't get that lucky everytime without doing alot of testing both with competition and medical.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Saphire...how many GSDs do you see on a regular basis? How many breeders do you communicate with and are able to truly see their breeding stock and what they're producing? Do you have a job that brings you around a wide variety of GSD? Or are you just making assumptions based on this forum, and what you've read, and maybe a little of what you've seen at a few dog shows. It sounds like you've had some dogs in your past...well how many? Are you making assumptions based on your own experience of owning a dozen or so dogs/GSD?

Dog shows...terrible representation of the whole GSD population. Dogs are well trained, and although they might not have the perfect temperament for one of us, they have a good enough temperament to be in that type of environment and pass the judge's test.

Yes...having HD should not be considered as normal. But the truth is, if the owner never notices pain or discomfort, they'll never know if the dog has HD. Most people also don't care if their dog has the drive to do Schutzhund or tracking...so they think its wonderful that their family pet just lays around the house and is very easy to take care of. End of the day...most people want something that looks like a GSD, barks like a GSD, but doesn't bite like a GSD. I hate this term...but at the end of the day...people want a glorified stuffed animal.

I actually believe that selzer's estimate for "normal" for reputable breeders might be too high, but its surely a good 90% success rate. I think I'd agree with about an 80% success rate for BYB. I think normal means the dog has a dependable temperament with people and dogs. Preferably absolutely no aggression in any situation, very calm, easy to live with. Maybe the dog has a few fears...but nothing that it runs into on a daily basis and so they don't really matter. I know allergies can be annoying...but once its figured out, it shouldn't be that difficult to live with so I would almost like to call that normal. At the end of the day, most allergies are not life threatening.

Then sure...we have the diseases that are life threatening. The statistics do say there aren't that many of them. Is it horrible when someone buys a puppy and then it has a life threatening disease and they can't do anything about it? Absolutely. And I'm sure it happens on a daily basis...but its not like it happens to THAT many people. And yes...even one person or puppy is too much, but its genetics.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

There are alot of byb'ers that are probably really NICE people who love their animals and "think" what they are doing is correct.

And I agree there are probably alot of byb dogs out there that have good health/good temperaments..I don't think I agree with the percentage tho.

With that said, I, myself, just won't support someone breeding dogs with no rhyme or reason behind it. I certainly have nothing against 'pet' dogs, MY dogs ARE my pets first and foremost, but I won't support someone breeding for 'just pets'..

I'm not a snob , and to each his own, I just choose to support breeders who are breeding responsibly and with purpose


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> HI,
> 
> I'm new here! Hello to everyone!
> 
> ...


Okay I will answer your question for you, and like you are asking, this will be my opinion. 

I would be questioning the line breeding done on these two, extensively. Also, the biggest red flag, and I say this because I HAVE BEEN THERE, what kind of venues have the parents been through, working wise, to prove that they have sound temperaments? It does not stop there, what about the other dogs in the pedigree? What kind of characteristics do they possess and how are they mixing when breeding this particular male to this female?

These are very REAL and very IMPORTANT things you need to find out before getting this puppy. There are A LOT of temperament issues in this breed relating to drives and thresholds, and sometimes those drives and thresholds do not completely surface until later.

My breeder (Jackson's breeder) sold me a dog who's parents had 'awesome temperaments' and the other dogs back in his ped also had 'great temperaments'. There was minimal titles and minimal certifications in the pedigree, much like I am seeing in these pedigrees.

And from this pedigree, and this male and female who had awesome temperaments, I ended up with a dog who has a general high drive, VERY high energy, high defense drive, and a very low threshold. The breeders response? I can return him, or I can put him down and get a refund. To what degree are those drives presenting themselves in your puppies pedigree? Because if they are mixed wrong like my dog's are, you will have a dangerous animal. This is something you need to find out before you make a commitment. If you don't want to, then that's fine. But understand that there can be liability issues for you later if care is NOT taken in the breeding program, which it looks like it is lacking. So to answer your question, that is one thing you should be worried about. It is very real, and all too common. Genetics are not simply the mother and father. They are a concoction of _generations_.

And one thing you should absolutely not worry about under any circumstance, is the price you are paying and who's charging what. You need to learn what to look for in a breeder, because in this case you are probably pitching your $$ into a pit. What have they done with this litter that costs $9,000? Certainly not extensive health tests, trials, training, and certifications to evaluate their breeding lines. You are not making an investment. You however could be making a $1,500 investment by going to a breeder who does all of this and can give you in depth, unbiased info on their pedigree, has a core breeding plan that goes beyond a male and a female with good hips. A breeder with a track record for success in multiple planned breedings, and a breeder who is BACKING UP THEIR CLAIMS! The breeder you are going to is claiming work, show, confirmation, and high drives, and wonderful temperament with nothing to back that up other than their opinions! I can tell you right now, that this sounds AWFUL FAMILIAR!!! 

I am not trying to be mean, but I have been there! Save up another $750 and go to a reputable breeder.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Saphire...how many GSDs do you see on a regular basis? How many breeders do you communicate with and are able to truly see their breeding stock and what they're producing? Do you have a job that brings you around a wide variety of GSD? Or are you just making assumptions based on this forum, and what you've read, and maybe a little of what you've seen at a few dog shows. It sounds like you've had some dogs in your past...well how many? Are you making assumptions based on your own experience of owning a dozen or so dogs/GSD?
> 
> Dog shows...terrible representation of the whole GSD population. Dogs are well trained, and although they might not have the perfect temperament for one of us, they have a good enough temperament to be in that type of environment and pass the judge's test.
> 
> ...


My experience is not breed specific. My experience started as a young child whose mother believed in supporting pure bred dogs from reputable breeders. My first dog as a child was ****zu. At 10 yrs old I put a CD title on her. I loved animals of all kinds, still do. I started volunteering at the Humane Society when I was 16. I saw dogs of every breed being pts daily. It broke my heart...still does. I saw more GSD's pts than any other breed. That is MY experience. I no longer volunteer after I fought to save a GSD named Rambo. He had been running loose for some time and had to be trapped. Big beautiful boy...weak back end and underweight. Had a home for him with an experienced GSD owner. He failed the "food test" wih consisted of putting a plastic hand attached to wooden stick into his food while he ate. He growled and bit the hand, I felt it was understandable for him to guard his food after not eating well for weeks and it wad workable. They felt different. I took to the media to save him from death...all yo find out gr had been pts very quickly after the test. These things stick with you and have an impact on personal opinions. You don't have to agree with my opinion as it is exactly that, MY opinion.

I won't make excuses for any breeder, "they only wanted a pet to hang out or be a stuffed dog so it really doesn't matter if they can perform like a GSD should or that they don't conform to the standard at 125 lbs.

To each their own and in a perfect world we would not have sickly dogs in any breed. In the meantime its important to encourage those working hard and proving their dogs over those that do nothing but gain a profit.

I do believe allergies can be life threatening. All the medications given to control and relieve must have an impact on the dog after yeas. Prednisone itself can be dangerous and is commonly used to treat allergies. Many dogs never find relief to allergies during their lifetime, never able to find the trigger so its not always easily managed or cured.

As for showline dogs not being proven by attaining CH or more, there ARE showline breeders out there who are well respected and would beg to differ.

This is what I love about forums, there really is no right or wrong as we all have an opinion. I enjoy, learn and have changed some of mine as a result of reading others.

In the end, we can never confirm % of success without having a complete listing of every breeder whether respected or byb and the ability to compile stats of their puppies produced.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I think it comes down to personal experience.
> 
> If you have at some time in your life either purchased a dog from a byb or know someone who has and those dogs were awesome dogs with no issues, your more likely to believe byb are not so bad.
> 
> ...


One thing to point out. My wife has had 3 dogs, all from the pound/abandoned. None of them had any problems. The last puppy was a German Shepherd, she got him as a 4 month old. Great temperament, never had surgery, he ripped one dewclaw once and had it bandaged but he was a runner and loved running with my wife, lived to a good age of 14. She never went online on this forum, how many other people don't go on this forum and ask about their decisions? How many people have GSDs that buy from BYB's and have great successes, I probably going to say a TON. The ones that do have problems, show up on this forum. 

I love the fact that most of you made great arguments why I shouldn't get this puppy and I appreciate it... and go for another breeder, and you helped me with a lot of questions I will be asking tonight when I pick up the puppy, no reason why I would be coming home with him if there is some issues that come up.


What I don't love is what some of you just made up your minds and started breeder bashing and in the fact that its against policy to breeder bash but no one said stop. Its like your a pretend scientist making a hypothesis without having any facts. "Oh this guy is total crap, you need to get titles, you need walk away... blah blah blah" 

I understand I will have a higher chance of having some sort of temperament problem or genetic problem. I have had 2 kids(humans, not puppies), there was a chance my child was going to be born with fluid in his brain and he could have died, but we went with the pregnancy and didn't abort him and now he is 100% healthy home destructor. Its called a crap shoot, you never know what your going to get, either human or dog, or anything. Life sucks, sometimes you get dealt with great cards but sometimes you lose. The people on this forum, some of you lost, some of you are on here because you want to brag how well you did by buying your certified and stamped puppy, and finally some of you are a balance between those two, you got a byb puppy and its doing great but you still feel as if yours is not as great as the guy with the certificates and now you want to be like them. 

Sorry to burst your bubble but in genetics, its a TOTAL crap shoot, unless you have your dog genetically tested, run the lab results through a test and artificially implant eggs which have been manipulated for specific traits, its being done in humans why not do this in GSD's. Want a total black only dog, ok NO problem. Why do we need a careful breeder if we can get a perfect animal by just picking good or bad traits and impregnating a Dam and use her to be a carrier even though she isn't even related to the eggs. It call can be done, if that's what you guys want as a perfect animal a Perfect breeder wont be able to do that for you. You'll need to get with a few geneticists and see what you can accomplish. You can breed two great dogs and get s*** or breed two terrible dogs and get a champion dog and be surprised what the heck happened there? Or you can breed a normal dog with a normal dog and get a mixture of great, good, normal, bad, terrible. 

Like I said, I will talk to the breeder tonight. However, I also want to see how many people can come on this thread and tell me where they got their dogs, lets see how many got great wonderful non-byb dogs and how many where byb or rescues since that's where all the rescue dogs come from is only byb. 

Its my fault, I fed the fires on this thread and vs just getting a couple opinions on one subject of what you guys think of the mom and dad, I got a "Your animal is going to be a freak show, its going to grow horns and eat your brains". "Your going to lose money" its terrible and on and on. Next time I ask a question about a dog, I wont bring it to an elitist forum with CHAMPION dogs that save peoples lives and win awards, because I am not an Olympian and I don't need an Olympian for my dog. Rather than freak out on me, you could say "You should have done some more research, we can help you, ask the breeder this... and this... and this... " and I would have said, ****, my bad... but no the first reply was "Well its too late" post #2. That translated into my mind as "You are stupid, you don't deserve a dog because your buying one from a byb" its like your the kids from the club house that didn't allow any of the geeky kids and you throw spit balls at them as they trying to make friends.

Thanks, my experience here was terrible, not from all of you, some of you got me great questions to ask. However, some of you need to get out of your head out of your a** and think before you post something that could in theory hurt peoples feelings or just scare them off from this forum. It didn't scare me off it put me down about how stupid and dumb I was and that I should have came to this forum before, well sorry guys, I didn't sorry I didn't stand up to your standards. 


Van is the puppies name, he is cute, I am buying because he is cute, that is the only reason how WONDERFULLY CUTE HE IS, even if he is a degenerative, diseased reject, with temperament problems... etc.. as you guys seem to describe him... and he got a long with my boys. If he gets sick or has temperament problems or genetic issues I will have to deal with it not you, because you have PERFECT CHAMPION DOGS. Sorry I'll drive my p.o.s. Chevy, and you guys can go drive your Maserati.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Aramazd said:


> unless you have your dog genetically tested


There's the rub, a lot of breeding dogs ARE genetically tested. If this breeder stands behind their dogs, why are they not?



> Rather than freak out on me, you could say "You should have done some more research, we can help you, ask the breeder this... and this... and this... "


Um this is what I personally did but am being told I am an elitist, or the questions/concerns are just ignored. 

You paid the deposit and made the decision so why even argue about it now?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> What I don't love is what some of you just made up your minds and started breeder bashing and in the fact that its against policy to breeder bash but no one said stop. Its like your a pretend scientist making a hypothesis without having any facts. "Oh this guy is total crap, you need to get titles, you need walk away... blah blah blah"


Nothing that was said is considered breeder bashing. Breeder bashing is making things up. No one made anything up. They said, no titles/no health checks means a higher chance of having a problem puppy. They said, he's breeding dogs that are too young to be bred (an accepted fact that dogs shouldn't be bred before they're 2). People have told you that they have experience with some of the dogs in the pedigree and told you FACTS about what they've seen from those dogs.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Nothing that was said is considered breeder bashing. Breeder bashing is making things up. No one made anything up. They said, no titles/no health checks means a higher chance of having a problem puppy. They said, he's breeding dogs that are too young to be bred (an accepted fact that dogs shouldn't be bred before they're 2). People have told you that they have experience with some of the dogs in the pedigree and told you FACTS about what they've seen from those dogs.


 
I did say some of you brought up GREAT information for me. You did, I am going to to make sure to ask all as well as the previous poster Liesje. I did not say all of you remember that. 


Also Liesje, genetically testing every dog is impossible, if every breeder did so, there would not be enough labs to do so. Not saying that's a great reason not too but its a reason to show you that there is problems in the whole picture. Even if you got it from a perfect breeder, you will have problems, doesn't matter what. Genetics are still a new science and we are spending way more money studying humans vs any other animal. GSDs aren't peas, you cant make 100% sure that the genes will fall together the way you want them too. The variables are too great, the only way to solve this is to actually splice and activate only select trains, but doing so will also activate other traits and so on, and there is no way of knowing with so many different scenarios.... at least right now, maybe in 20 years?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Nothing that was said is considered breeder bashing. Breeder bashing is making things up. No one made anything up. They said, no titles/no health checks means a higher chance of having a problem puppy. They said, he's breeding dogs that are too young to be bred (an accepted fact that dogs shouldn't be bred before they're 2). People have told you that they have experience with some of the dogs in the pedigree and told you FACTS about what they've seen from those dogs.


 
On the subject of breeder bashing, you bash by saying skip that breeder. That's pretty much breeder bashing hidden behind a cloak.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> On the subject of breeder bashing, you bash by saying skip that breeder. That's pretty much breeder bashing hidden behind a cloak.


So people are only allowed to say "go for it"?

And yes, checking for such genetic issues as DM IS 100% possible.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Saphire...you completely dismissed my opinion on what I have seen from my dealings with the breed and where my opinions come from. Your dealings are with random breeds, not that many GSDs, and the dogs you remember were all from a shelter. I'm assuming dumped there BECAUSE they have issues. You then assumed that they came from BYB. Btw...a few months ago I saw a GSD in a shelter that had her BH. So I guess not all shelter dogs come from BYB.

Sounds like you currently don't have too much dealings with the GSD world or a multitude of GSDs. So your opinions are either based on your experience years ago, or what you are able to read on this forum. Not sure if that gives you enough experience to guess that 2/3 of BYB dogs have problems.

My point about allergies is that they are not life threatening on a daily basis. If we're going to talk about "years down the line" ingesting anything might be questionable. I'm guessing with your outlook on medicine you don't give your dog heart worm preventative.

This is my problem with blanket statements...they're based off opinion and experience and no one states their experience. No one gives the person reading those posts any idea where they're coming from. It's one thing to say...I'm a vet who deals with 1000 GSD and at least 700 of them have problems. It's another thing to say...I have worked at a shelter where I saw a large amount (who knows how many) of GSD and they all had problems.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Aramazd said:


> One thing to point out. My wife has had 3 dogs, all from the pound/abandoned. None of them had any problems. The last puppy was a German Shepherd, she got him as a 4 month old. Great temperament, never had surgery, he ripped one dewclaw once and had it bandaged but he was a runner and loved running with my wife, lived to a good age of 14. She never went online on this forum, how many other people don't go on this forum and ask about their decisions? How many people have GSDs that buy from BYB's and have great successes, I probably going to say a TON. The ones that do have problems, show up on this forum.
> 
> I love the fact that most of you made great arguments why I shouldn't get this puppy and I appreciate it... and go for another breeder, and you helped me with a lot of questions I will be asking tonight when I pick up the puppy, no reason why I would be coming home with him if there is some issues that come up.
> 
> ...


I do honestly hope your puppy is healthy and sound in every way. I hope he fulfills whatever expectations you have for him. I hope your children have an untouchable bond that lasts 10+ years. I hope you can come back here and tell me I was wrong about this breeder.

Nobody here is hoping your family is heartbroken and this puppy grows into a sickly ill tempered dog. The people here are passionate about the breed and want the best for you AND your puppy.

Should you have problems of anykind, the people here will rally to help in every way possible. I see it daily here. I am not talking illness or temperment necessarily, could be housebreaking ideas, how to get through the gator puppy stage etc.

I wish you the best.

Cathy


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I would not pay $750.00 for a BYB dog. You are being over charged. Riley was a BYB dog and he was only $200.00. No titles, no health guarantee, but I only wanted a pet. However, I lost my pet due to his breeding and it broke my heart. I hope you get a healthy dog with no issues. I would not want anyone to go through what I and my family went through.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm confused how people advising you AGAINST a BYB dog is saying they hope you have a dog with issues? It's the complete opposite... people are trying to tell you how to go about minimizing your chances for issues...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well the problem I have is breeding a 9 month old puppy. That dog is not even physically or mentally mature, so coupled with the fact that no testing of any kind is being done (no titles, hips and elbows cannot be certified at that age, it doesn't look like anything else was done like thyroid, DM, etc...), the breeder can't even make guesses/personal assessment of temperament and health since the dog is not grown. Heck, you can't even get a dental notation yet at that age. That is not a red flag for you? I agree, you're being over charged, especially if to you everything is a crapshoot anyway.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> On the subject of breeder bashing, you bash by saying skip that breeder. That's pretty much breeder bashing hidden behind a cloak.


Lol...not even close. People ask for opinions, people will tell you how they feel about that breeder. As long as they use TRUE facts, its not bashing. It's not really an opinion if they tell you don't go to this breeder because he doesn't health test his dogs. If they told you to not go there because his dog is ugly, or because all they can say is that its a WGSL...then its bashing.

And yes...most breeders genetic test. DM is a huge problem in GSDs and many breeders will test for it. It's a really simple test, costs about $30 a dog and no...labs don't get over whelmed.

Same thing with hips...more people do that then DM testing. It's not hard to do, all it takes is an x-ray by YOUR vet and then you send it into a registry to get it graded by more experienced vets or specialists. Trust me, if more people did either one, labs wouldn't get over whelmed. They'd easily handle the extra load by hiring more people.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, the reason you are going to get a lot of push back here is because many of us are breed fanciers. We don't just love GSDs and own them as our preferred breed of pet, but train them, work them, exhibit them, and breed them. When I buy a dog I'm not looking to get a good deal, I need to consider who I am paying the money to and what that says about my respect for the breed and involvement with the breed. Trust me I am not an elitist since I will buy puppies bred from dogs that don't have all the *right* titles and even breed to those dogs, but there needs to be a whole lot more effort put into breeding than repeating the same pair for no good reason other than low cost or proximity. If I'm looking for an end-user dog (don't care about pedigree) then I just get one from the pound or a rescue. Two of my dogs, including my "heart" dog are pound mutts. But when it comes to GSDs, they are my passion and I want to see the breed thrive so I can't pay a breeder that in my opinion is not making a bare minimum effort.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> How many people have GSDs that buy from BYB's and have great successes, I probably going to say a TON. The ones that do have problems, show up on this forum.


My first dog was from a BYB. She was supposed to be a purebred GSD but I think she was a mix. She was an awesome dog and lived to be 16 years old. She did have flea allergies and skin problems, but as long as I kept her on flea control she did okay. In the grand scheme of things, I got lucky.



> Its called a crap shoot, you never know what your going to get, either human or dog, or anything. Life sucks, sometimes you get dealt with great cards but sometimes you lose.


True, but it's wise to stack the deck in your favor as much as is humanly possible. Reputable breeders do everything they can to eliminate disease and ensure proper health and temperament, and some go to great lengths to do so--genetic testing, trialing, and titling. This is time-consuming, expensive, and complicated. That is why the pups cost more. Of course it is no guarantee that all the puppies will be perfect, nature has a way of making fools of us all, but good breeders strive to create the best possible outcome.



> "Your animal is going to be a freak show, its going to grow horns and eat your brains". "Your going to lose money" its terrible and on and on. Next time I ask a question about a dog, I wont bring it to an elitist forum with CHAMPION dogs that save peoples lives and win awards, because I am not an Olympian and I don't need an Olympian for my dog.


No one said any of that, and you're missing the point. Most of us here started with BYB dogs and learned through experience that it isn't the best way to go... it has nothing to do with being "elitist"... it's about getting your money's worth from a breeder who truly cares about the breed, their own dogs, and the puppies they bring into the world. No one cares if you show or title your pet dog, the point is that reputable breeders test their dogs before breeding to ensure they are not passing on faulty genes. Some of these faulty genes, you cannot see without testing. Even if all your dog does is lie on the hearth, you want him to be healthy, and to have proper temperament. Reputable breeders strive for this, and most do not care whether you are an "Olympian", they only care that you will do right by the dog, give him proper care, training, and love.



> That translated into my mind as "You are stupid, you don't deserve a dog because your buying one from a byb" its like your the kids from the club house that didn't allow any of the geeky kids and you throw spit balls at them as they trying to make friends.


I understand your feelings, but that was NOT intended. The intent was, hopefully, to prevent you from making the same mistakes many of us did. 



> I am buying because he is cute, that is the only reason how WONDERFULLY CUTE HE IS, even if he is a degenerative, diseased reject, with temperament problems... etc.. as you guys seem to describe him... and he got a long with my boys. If he gets sick or has temperament problems or genetic issues I will have to deal with it not you, because you have PERFECT CHAMPION DOGS. Sorry I'll drive my p.o.s. Chevy, and you guys can go drive your Maserati.


All puppies are cute. It costs just as much to feed and care for a well-bred puppy as a randomly-bred one. We don't drive Maseratis, in fact most of us here are dog-poor... we drive Chevys and Fords and struggle to pay our mortgage. We spend our extra money on dog stuff, because everyone needs a hobby, and you choose what you want to spend your money on. For some people it's cars, for some it's travel, photography, or what have you... we have dogs and good breeders consider it an expensive hobby more than anything.

I don't know where you got the idea that everyone here has "champion" dogs. Some of us have bought dogs from reputable breeders, some of us have bought from BYBs or adopted from rescues, some of us show and title our dogs, some don't. Your puppy might be just fine, if you are lucky, but you could to better to stack the odds in your favor, is all we are saying.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> When I buy a dog I'm not looking to get a good deal, I need to consider who I am paying the money to and what that says about my respect for the breed and involvement with the breed.
> 
> I want to see the breed thrive so I can't pay a breeder that in my opinion is not making a bare minimum effort.


Thank you, this is beautifully put. Freestep: I love your post too. 

OP: It's not just about the chance that the puppy you're considering might have issues. It's because you're essentially voting with your dollars and, by paying them to someone who is breeding irresponsibly, you're supporting those practices.

Everyone on this board is coming from a slightly different angle. I don't even _own_ a purebred GSD. I have never yet owned a purebred dog of any kind, although I hope to get one in a few years. For now, I'm heavily involved in rescue, and my "elitist champion dog" (who is indeed a champion -- eight times over, and it should be ten times over in a couple more weeks) is a severely fearful pound mutt with a whole load of temperament problems. Ain't no Maserati dog here.

But all of us are on this forum because we care about dogs, and we want to see them healthy, happy, and responsibly bred. The reason you're not getting a single person who supports the decision to buy from this particular breeder is because no matter which part of the "dog world" we come from, nobody wants to encourage a breeder like this one.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

The only one who is freaking out here is you. When you know better, you do better. We are not all out to get you. We do not all own champion dogs. You need to stop trying to translate everything in your mind into what you 'think we are really trying to say'. We are trying to HELP you!

And since you were wondering about our dogs, I have a BYB dog with temperament/nerve issues up the u know what, and a very well bred little female and I can tell you she is REFRESING! 

If you decide to get this puppy, I hope everything goes well for you. Genetics is NOT a total crap shoot. It is a crap shoot to a degree no matter what, but we do have control over it to a degree as well. I just don't see why anyone would not want to take advantage of that...for the sake of your sanity, finances, the heartache, and the future of the breeder you are buying from which ultimately is the future of the GSD.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I doubt anyone here drives a maserati. How would the GSD fit inside? ok, I'm kidding. 

The only reason I now have a gsd that comes from titled show lines is because Riley died. My BYB GSD who I will always love and give anything if he was still here could not overcome his breeding. He was also a bit nervy and dog aggressive. Those last two things we were working on. I had no idea those things could happen when I got Riley. I thought a purebred GSD without titles was perfectly fine, because I was not going to show him. I was wrong. I can't advocate for BYB, because I know they do not always put out the healthiest dogs. 

I truly hope your puppy is healthy and lives a long life with you and your family. The other side of that equation nobody should have to go through.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

2004 Mazda 3
259000 kms 

lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ ditto that, year and mileage (basically) except mine's a Mazda MPV (which I got specifically for hauling dogs all over the country year round).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

MINI Cooper! If a GSD can fit in there...it can fit anywhere...

Maybe not a smart fortwo...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Looks as if I was correct in post number 2.
So I really see no point in continuing this thread.

It has already gone to 14 pages and OP has learned nothing, is still rude and still thinks we are elitist jerks.



Aramazd said:


> Van is the puppies name, he is cute, I am buying because he is cute, that is the only reason how WONDERFULLY CUTE HE IS, even if he is a degenerative, diseased reject, with temperament problems... etc.. as you guys seem to describe him... and he got a long with my boys. If he gets sick or has temperament problems or genetic issues I will have to deal with it not you, because you have PERFECT CHAMPION DOGS. Sorry I'll drive my p.o.s. Chevy, and you guys can go drive your Maserati.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

trcy said:


> I doubt anyone here drives a maserati.


Speak for yourself. 

I have one in every color of the rainbow


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

trcy said:


> I would not pay $750.00 for a BYB dog. You are being over charged. Riley was a BYB dog and he was only $200.00. No titles, no health guarantee, but I only wanted a pet. However, I lost my pet due to his breeding and it broke my heart. I hope you get a healthy dog with no issues. I would not want anyone to go through what I and my family went through.


I do have a health guarantee. His warranty even states that if I choose to give up the dog he would like to have first rights to have it back or try to help me with it and refund the purchase.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Looks as if I was correct in post number 2.
> So I really see no point in continuing this thread.
> 
> It has already gone to 14 pages and OP has learned nothing, is still rude and still thinks we are elitist jerks.


 
You are but not Martemchik, not liesje, and others. I liked their opinions. You didn't have one, you just said, have fun with your reject.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Thank you, this is beautifully put. Freestep: I love your post too.
> 
> OP: It's not just about the chance that the puppy you're considering might have issues. It's because you're essentially voting with your dollars and, by paying them to someone who is breeding irresponsibly, you're supporting those practices.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you, but that's not the point, your saying that you have a dog with pound mutt with temperament problems. If he was raised in a healthy home from Day1, would he have those problems? Does your Mutt have genetic problems? 

Plus your saying no one would "encourage a breeder like this one" what do you mean, what do you know about this breeder but the two dogs on his website and their lines? Other than that you dont know anything correct?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Freestep said:


> I don't know where you got the idea that everyone here has "champion" dogs. Some of us have bought dogs from reputable breeders, some of us have bought from BYBs or adopted from rescues, some of us show and title our dogs, some don't. Your puppy might be just fine, if you are lucky, but you could to better to stack the odds in your favor, is all we are saying.


Sarcasm on the everyone here has a "champion" I hate typing seriously. I sound like an ******* all the time, I am not trying to be. 

But I will ask again, post where you got the dog, and what problems you all had, if its a BYB you must have major problems with Hips as well as genetics, that's all I got from everyone's post, I must be TOO dense.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you read or noticed that the sire is still a puppy himself? That is a huge red flag...why are you still thinking of supporting such a breeder? $200 is nothing when it comes to what you'll end up paying over the life of a dog...better to lose that now and I think you'll still be ahead.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> I agree with you, but that's not the point, your saying that you have a dog with pound mutt with temperament problems. If he was raised in a healthy home from Day1, would he have those problems? Does your Mutt have genetic problems?
> 
> Plus your saying no one would "encourage a breeder like this one" what do you mean, what do you know about this breeder but the two dogs on his website and their lines? Other than that you dont know anything correct?


We know that the breeder is breeding BABIES. That's a big, big deal and a HUGE ethical red flag. There is absolutely nothing that can redeem that. 


And I have a dog from a breeder like this. Raised with me, from day one. And he's an absolute mess both in terms of health and temperament. Many others who have posted on this thread have similar experiences. We are trying to keep you from making the mistakes we did.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> I do have a health guarantee. His warranty even states that if I choose to give up the dog he would like to have first rights to have it back or try to help me with it and refund the purchase.


Come on...at the end of the day the guarantee/warranty doesn't matter. I could care less if the breeder will give me my money back, or take the dog back. After a month...its my dog, its my family member, its my child...I don't want to give that dog up for anything. If you have differing feelings on how much of a connection you'll have with this dog, then there's really nothing we can say to you. I don't quite understand people that have no problems giving a dog back and saying, well, I tried, it didn't work out, round two...

And the reason you're encouraging him to do it again is that you're giving him $750 for a puppy. I know you think this guy is awesome and doesn't care about money, but at the end of the day...we all care about money. He's not in it to just produce more "fairly priced puppies for the masses." At $750, he's no Henry Ford. If he didn't care about money and just wanted to provide low priced GSD puppies for people that couldn't afford $1500 dogs, he'd be charging $200 (and still making some money)...trust me $2800 is way more than it costs to raise puppies to the age of 8 weeks. The mom doesn't need THAT much extra food.

So riddle me that...why does he charge $750 and not $200 if all he wants to do is provide good dogs to good people?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Looks as if I was correct in post number 2.
> So I really see no point in continuing this thread.
> 
> It has already gone to 14 pages and OP has learned nothing, is still rude and still thinks we are elitist jerks.


 
The original intent of my thread was an OPINION on the mom and dad, not the puppy or if you where going to change my mind. Everyone here wanted to stop me from doing it, you knew from the start that I didn't want to change my mind, I only wanted an opinion on the parents. Even if it was bad. But it ended up that everyone's mission and I say MISSION was to stop me from doing it. That's not what I wanted. With my second reply to you, after I felt that I made a huge mistake I thought you had some sort of crazy info about the two dogs so I said "Its just a deposit, I can cancel" that's when I thought you had LEGITIMATE reasons, no you had hearsay.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> You are but not Martemchik, not liesje, and others. I liked their opinions. You didn't have one, *you just said, have fun with your reject*.


Please find the post where I said that and quote me. 
I recall taking the time to explain where I got my dog and why.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> I agree with you, but that's not the point, your saying that you have a dog with pound mutt with temperament problems. If he was raised in a healthy home from Day1, would he have those problems? Does your Mutt have genetic problems?
> 
> Plus your saying no one would "encourage a breeder like this one" what do you mean, what do you know about this breeder but the two dogs on his website and their lines? Other than that you dont know anything correct?


Yes, Pongu's problems are genetic. I got him when he was 16 weeks old. He was born with a crappy temperament, fear issues, OCD, and myriad other problems. He's come a long way since then, and after _years_ of behavioral modification and intensive training he is pretty good at what he does, but he will always be held back by his genetic limitations to some extent.

I'm mostly over worrying about that at this point, though. Despite all Pongu's problems and limitations, he is My Dog. He works hard, he gives it all he's got, and he wins. But it's been a harder road than it needed to be.

re: not knowing anything else about the breeder -- yes, you are correct. I don't know anything beyond what's on the website. But the fact that this breeder puts those two dogs together, and has done so repeatedly, is enough to tell me that this isn't a responsible breeder, for all the reasons people have posted on this thread.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> The original intent of my thread was an OPINION on the mom and dad, not the puppy or if you where going to change my mind. Everyone here wanted to stop me from doing it, you knew from the start that I didn't want to change my mind, I only wanted an opinion on the parents. Even if it was bad. But it ended up that everyone's mission and I say MISSION was to stop me from doing it. That's not what I wanted. With my second reply to you, after I felt that I made a huge mistake I thought you had some sort of crazy info about the two dogs so I said "Its just a deposit, I can cancel" that's when I thought you had LEGITIMATE reasons, no you had hearsay.


I'm so confused... what DID you want then?

Because you're not happy with people saying "we don't like the parents", I'm guessing you only wanted to hear "ooh's and ahh's"...


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm so confused... what DID you want then?
> 
> Because you're not happy with people saying "we don't like the parents", I'm guessing you only wanted to hear "ooh's and ahh's"...


He also hears things we did not say. Refuses to see legitimate reasons and rejects them, calling them "hearsay."
Frankly, I give up.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

When people say 'no one would encourage a breeder like this one', they are generalizing..It means, generally a responsible breeder would not breed dogs this young. It's been posted before 

I'm sure this guy is a nice guy, maybe uneducated when it comes to breeding dogs/age/health etc. I commend him for saying he would take return of any of the puppies for any reason or help you place them/refund..

I'm not saying 'don't get a puppy from this guy',,I'm saying, you probably could have done better.

I have/had rescues, some with problems , some not, I"ve bought dogs from breeders, one with issues, the majority , no problems. 

I think all puppies/dogs deserve a good home, I just feel if your going to buy one, go to the best you can (and afford) which can stack the deck more in your favor.

You've made your mind up, your going to get this puppy, I hope he is everything you've wished for.. 

I don't think anymore really needs to be said


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

And there were posters who gave you opinions on mom and dad, you choose to not except those opinions..

Don't get peeved because people don't agree with you, you have your opinion and others stated theirs..

So what's the point of continuing?

And I agree, who cares about a guarantee/warranty? IT's only as good as the paper it's written on..


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Aramazd said:


> *The original intent of my thread was an OPINION on the mom and dad, not the puppy or if you where going to change my mind.* Everyone here wanted to stop me from doing it, you knew from the start that I didn't want to change my mind, I only wanted an opinion on the parents. Even if it was bad.


You can't separate one from the other. The puppy is the genetic result of mixing the two dogs so whatever good or bad things that make up the parents make up the puppy. 

At the end of the day yes you can get the puppy and none of us can stop you. What we are trying to do (sarcasm aside) is hopefully raise enough flags that you will reconsider and perhaps move onto something better.

There is no perfect dog; every dog has their issues and quirks. What the point is, you're buying a dog of a breed that is unfortunately prone to health issues and temperament issues. I knew that myself as well the hard way, so after multiple BYB dogs I learned and I decided I didn't want to take that chance anymore. I went with a breeder who truly cared about bringing *GOOD* GSD's into the world and not the pay check at the end of it. I spent $1500 for my dog but I got a lifetime relationship with a breeder who is available at any time to speak to and a pedigree full of dogs that are healthy and titled in multiple venues including his parents. Delgado has not had ONE sick day in his life and he's almost two, he's a dream to train in obedience, the more he learns the more he wants to continue learning. He has rock steady nerves, he's been in the midst gun shots, fireworks, crowds, live concerts and never batted an eye. He's worth every penny I paid for him and more

If the dog you want to bring home and live with for the next hopefully 15 years is one like Delgado then stack the odds in your favour, start again and find a new breeder. One that health tests, titles, and will stand behind their dogs 100% without compromise. Those are the people we need breeding our dogs, not people who have a male and female and decide they are pretty and nice enough that people will buy the puppies. Yes you may get a wonderful dog from them, but the chances are higher you won't.

I hope no matter what happens that you stick around and keep learning. There are people here that have owned GSD's for 20+ years, some are on their first GSD like me, and there are those who are still waiting for the right one. You're always going to have differing opinions on certain subjects, consider everything then use what works for you. It's a discussion board, we're all here to talk and learn together.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Come on...at the end of the day the guarantee/warranty doesn't matter. I could care less if the breeder will give me my money back, or take the dog back. After a month...its my dog, its my family member, its my child...I don't want to give that dog up for anything. If you have differing feelings on how much of a connection you'll have with this dog, then there's really nothing we can say to you. I don't quite understand people that have no problems giving a dog back and saying, well, I tried, it didn't work out, round two...
> 
> And the reason you're encouraging him to do it again is that you're giving him $750 for a puppy. I know you think this guy is awesome and doesn't care about money, but at the end of the day...we all care about money. He's not in it to just produce more "fairly priced puppies for the masses." At $750, he's no Henry Ford. If he didn't care about money and just wanted to provide low priced GSD puppies for people that couldn't afford $1500 dogs, he'd be charging $200 (and still making some money)...trust me $2800 is way more than it costs to raise puppies to the age of 8 weeks. The mom doesn't need THAT much extra food.
> 
> So riddle me that...why does he charge $750 and not $200 if all he wants to do is provide good dogs to good people?


The cost of living for him and his animals. And I can give you multiple examples of what he does that isn't just for money. He drives 2.5hr to get dog food for them because Minot is the only place to carry the better stuff(forgot the name at the moment). He went out of his way to build a fracking fence which cost him as much as 12k for a fence out here(he has a 70x100 lot(His fence was a 50x50x50, that's not very big and he leases it the property, if he ever left, he just loses 12k) Yes it has to do with money, however this guy makes way more money as his main job, this is not some sort of puppy mill where he spits these out to cover his gambling habit. 


And the only place cheaper would be a pound... Oh and don't get me started on the pound, there isn't any dogs in the pound because they are all dead after the winter if there where ever on the streets. It gets 
-40C a lot of nights during the January February and not much can survive. We get a lots of animals in the summer time but then there is nothing. 

The other reason why prices are higher, he gets gauged because of the people with the money. For example I had a lady in my office going over her taxes and suddenly two 15k checks flopped out of her tax documents that she "forgot" to cash. This is Williston, if he doesn't charge a bit extra to cover Gas or costs of living then I would think he is just doing it for the money. All he has to do is put them in some cages and throw some food at them once in a while and no one would care. ND has no animal abuse laws. I voted to get one passed but the Farmers shot it down. You can beat the crap or to death your animals on your farm or your property and you get nothing, no one enforces that stuff, its disgusting. It failed because some California company came in and started to get really vocal, all the North Dakotans freaked out and shut the bill down. The state is so full of oil that they almost got rid of property taxes last election. If I go to the tractor supply and I want to buy a puppy carrier it will cost me $200 dollars, if I drive 4 hours to Bismarck ND it will cost me $80. His costs are higher. So to compensate he will raise prices on his costs. Just like if I hobby farmed, I would charge more for my pot belly pigs than the ones that live in Fargo.

$750 dollars is $350 in Fargo, but then I would have to pay for shipping or drive 5 hours, and pay 400 Dollars in Gas.


Other examples:

It costs me $75 dollars for Romex 250 foot wire, while in Menards in Minot 2 hours away costs me $45.

It costs me $1000 to go see a doctor here, but only costs $350 in Fargo(5 hours away)

It costs me $40 dollars for a haircut here, while it would only be $20 in Minot. 

I could go on. Its a 30 to 50% increase in costs on everything from needs to wants. Only thing that has been consistently low is walmart pricing but they are losing money like crazy.

It cost me $8 dollars for a watermelon at a grocery store. Bismarck $3. 

I could come up with more examples... but its not worth arguing about that.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm so confused... what DID you want then?
> 
> Because you're not happy with people saying "we don't like the parents", I'm guessing you only wanted to hear "ooh's and ahh's"...


I never said that I wasn't haven't about parents. read through any of my posts. I even agreed that I will be asking questions on the parents.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> The cost of living for him and his animals. And I can give you multiple examples of what he does that isn't just for money. He drives 2.5hr to get dog food for them because Minot is the only place to carry the better stuff(forgot the name at the moment). He went out of his way to build a fracking fence which cost him as much as 12k for a fence out here(he has a 70x100 lot(His fence was a 50x50x50, that's not very big and he leases it the property, if he ever left, he just loses 12k) Yes it has to do with money, however this guy makes way more money as his main job, this is not some sort of puppy mill where he spits these out to cover his gambling habit.


Dude...come on. All that stuff is not necessary! He wants that stuff! It's actually a great idea that I never thought of...next time I want to improve my house/back yard I'll make some puppies and then people will think I'm doing it for the dogs and not for myself. How is it going out of his way to build a fence? He wanted to fence in his yard so that he can just let his dog out there and not worry about it. To me its more for the owner than for the dog...I'm sure the dog would rather have MORE space to run around in. I bought a house with a fenced in yard...because I knew it would make my life easier...not my dog's life. I don't consider that decision "going out of my way" to be a better dog owner...I consider that decision going out of my way to be a lazier dog owner.

Dog food...you can have it shipped from plenty of online retailers and it generally costs like $5 more dollars than a national chain. So the fact that he drives just shows me he doesn't know how to use UPS properly.

I think my dog can use a steam shower to clean him off when he gets dirty playing in the back yard...I should breed some puppies.

No matter how much money you make...a $9,000 bonus for pretty much no work still feels good.

And what do you drive that 5 hours of driving costs you $400 in gas?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> And what do you drive that 5 hours of driving costs you $400 in gas?


Silverado 1500, 4 hours to Bismarck and 4 hours back, about 120 to 150 per fill depending if I can get it cheaper with e85. Prices in the oil field are higher than yours are  because there is no refinery up here, so our gas gets shipped from Bismarck or even better somewhere is OHIO.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Dude...come on. All that stuff is not necessary! He wants that stuff! It's actually a great idea that I never thought of...next time I want to improve my house/back yard I'll make some puppies and then people will think I'm doing it for the dogs and not for myself. How is it going out of his way to build a fence? He wanted to fence in his yard so that he can just let his dog out there and not worry about it. To me its more for the owner than for the dog...I'm sure the dog would rather have MORE space to run around in.
> 
> Dog food...you can have it shipped from plenty of online retailers and it generally costs like $5 more dollars than a national chain. So the fact that he drives just shows me he doesn't know how to use UPS properly.
> 
> ...


Also the fence is necessary, they have been stealing dogs here for fights. Putting Red for Big and Blue for Small on peoples fences and property. Then a van comes around and steals the pups or full sized dogs. then they have fights down in Watford City. Its been busted a few times but still going on. We have all sorts of people coming up here because of the oil field but don't think its the wild west. It does suck. Had a guy try to use my neighbors shower because he was homeless and stunk. Had 8 Mexicans living under a trailer home and cut the heat vent to keep them warm while they slept down there. Crazy **** in this town. Guy got shot and killed in a small town like this is really Crazy, by a biker gang. 

Read up a little about Williston, maybe you will then change your mind on costs. $750 is how much money most roughnecks make in 3 days, so please don't think that's a lot of money.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> But I will ask again, post where you got the dog, and what problems you all had, if its a BYB you must have major problems with Hips as well as genetics, that's all I got from everyone's post, I must be TOO dense.


Several people (including myself) have told you where we got our dogs and what problems (if any) they had.



Aramazd said:


> The original intent of my thread was an OPINION on the mom and dad, not the puppy or if you where going to change my mind. Everyone here wanted to stop me from doing it, you knew from the start that I didn't want to change my mind, I only wanted an opinion on the parents. Even if it was bad.


I and others DID give you opinions on the sire and dam of the litter. Was there something else you wanted to hear, other than the opinions you got? You seem offended and insulted by the opinions that YOU asked for, so I'm confused. 

If you're dead-set on buying this puppy despite everyone else's opinions, why are you still here arguing? It's no skin off our backs if you purchase this pup, the only one who will suffer is you, should you end up with something less than what you wanted or expected. I am not sure why people come here asking for opinions, and then get upset when they get opinions. No one is attacking you or belittling you. If you don't want honest, unbaised opinions, why did you ask for them?


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Several people (including myself) have told you where we got our dogs and what problems (if any) they had.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its the point of the Forum. It switched from Opinions to make trying to understand your opinions. I understand a lot of them yes. Some of them I am confused about what you guys mean.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> Silverado 1500, 4 hours to Bismarck and 4 hours back, about 120 to 150 per fill depending if I can get it cheaper with e85. Prices in the oil field are higher than yours are  because there is no refinery up here, so our gas gets shipped from Bismarck or even better somewhere is OHIO.


And you run out of gas after 240 miles on the expressway? :crazy: Isn't it like a general requirement that a car or truck goes at least 300 miles on a single fill up? I mean, I know my car goes like 500-600 on a single fill up on the express way if I drive normally, maybe you should look into something more efficient and then you wouldn't mind spending more money on a pup?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> Also the fence is necessary, they have been stealing dogs here for fights. Putting Red for Big and Blue for Small on peoples fences and property. Then a van comes around and steals the pups or full sized dogs. then they have fights down in Watford City. Its been busted a few times but still going on. We have all sorts of people coming up here because of the oil field but don't think its the wild west. It does suck. Had a guy try to use my neighbors shower because he was homeless and stunk. Had 8 Mexicans living under a trailer home and cut the heat vent to keep them warm while they slept down there. Crazy **** in this town. Guy got shot and killed in a small town like this is really Crazy, by a biker gang.


Easy solution to all of that...keep your dogs inside when they're not being watched. No NEED for a fence then. If you need to walk your dog...walk it. Sounds like the guy only has the one female right? Shouldn't be too difficult...

No need for puppies to be outside. 99% of breeders I know don't allow their pups out that much until they're like 6 or 7 weeks old anyways. Too many diseases floating around.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> And you run out of gas after 240 miles on the expressway? :crazy: Isn't it like a general requirement that a car or truck goes at least 300 miles on a single fill up? I mean, I know my car goes like 500-600 on a single fill up on the express way if I drive normally, maybe you should look into something more efficient and then you wouldn't mind spending more money on a pup?


Truck can drive 315 miles without a fill up. Get headwind down to 280Miles. 

Drive to Bismarck, when I leave I have to fill up, When I get to Williston I have to fill up. If I didn't take the trip I don't use a $400 dollars but $100. Its all relative. Tank is 25 gallons I think... Usually get 18Gallons every time I fell up since I don't run it empty. If your driving from Bismarck to Williston, then you run the thing empty, you wont find a gas station for another 40 miles, so you have to always drive on a full tank. The distances in this state suck!

More efficient, try driving in 2 to 5 feet of snow in a blizzard(that came out of nowhere and there was no prediction.... of a storm) with a Honda Civic and you'll see how much your towing bill will be when your stuck 100 miles from the nearest city with no services and the only thing you got... is your phone but you forgot to charge it because... you were trying to save energy... LOL


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Easy solution to all of that...keep your dogs inside when they're not being watched. No NEED for a fence then. If you need to walk your dog...walk it. Sounds like the guy only has the one female right? Shouldn't be too difficult...
> 
> No need for puppies to be outside. 99% of breeders I know don't allow their pups out that much until they're like 6 or 7 weeks old anyways. Too many diseases floating around.


There is no diseases out here but the cold. Ever heard of a Sun Dog? Look it up.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I hate cold weather, I'm not sure I'd want to live in ND


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> Its the point of the Forum. It switched from Opinions to make trying to understand your opinions. I understand a lot of them yes. Some of them I am confused about what you guys mean.


If there's something you're confused on, and you genuinely want to learn, then participate in the discussion that way  

I know you asked, and it seemed genuine, why we would avoid a breeder "like that." Health checks and titles aside, the fact that he is breeding babies is a big no-no. Many pet-only newcomers (as opposed to sport people, etc) don't understand the big deal about titles (as in, "why would I care about a schutzhund title, if I only want a pet"- totally a fine question to ask), or even health checks (I had no idea what DM was when I first started, or OFA)... but all of that aside, I'm sure you understand why breeding a puppy is bad. 

Asking opinions about the parents really goes hand in hand with asking about the breeder. If the parents are questionable, then begs the question of why they're being bred, and so on. 

You may luck out, or you may end up with a nightmare like many of us. It's pretty much impossible to say. We could talk all day about not supporting shady breeding practices, or stacking the deck in your favor, but I'm not sure any of it matters to you. The parents are not desirable for breeding- I'm sure they're great dogs as pets... the two are NOT the same thing. That's pretty much what it boils down to. As others have said, all puppies are cute. It's what happens AFTER puppyhood that matters. Those are going to be a long, long 10-13 years (hopefully), so from personal experience, I would recommend searching by more than a price point.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> There is no diseases out here but the cold. Ever heard of a Sun Dog? Look it up.


Ever hear of PARVO? Look it up...cold doesn't stop it. Since when do viruses care about the cold? And last I checked...North Dakota isn't that much farther north than Wisconsin, and we get pretty warm here in the summer. I do recall that I played a few rounds of golf in 90 degree plus weather this summer. But I guess you're just so much farther north that you're lucky not to have disease. I guess we're also so much farther south that we don't get cold weather. Just a heads up...the temperature here consistently gets below freezing in the winter...doesn't do much to kill off the disease.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

So this breeder leaves his puppies outside?


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## SDG (Jul 30, 2013)

I would respectfully ask that you read this article by Chris Wild. It really helped me to understand the importance of choosing your dog's ancestors VERY carefully.

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

At this point I think the OP is just going to do as he wants to do.

His choice.

I do get what he is saying about Williston just being crazy for costs, and I have tried to be understanding when reading his posts. But I don't think that changes the reality that he's taking a risk with this breeder. (And as an aside, the, "oh well, if it dies I'll teach my kids about death" got a raised eyebrow out of me.)

If he's going to do what he wants anyway, I wonder if we are better off just not saying anything more. He's getting madder and madder. And as a very contrary personality myself, I could see all of the well reasoned arguments posted actually driving him in the opposite of their intended direction!

OP - good luck with the dog, hope everything turns out okay.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Aramazd said:


> The cost of living for him and his animals. And I can give you multiple examples of what he does that isn't just for money. He drives 2.5hr to get dog food for them because Minot is the only place to carry the better stuff(forgot the name at the moment).



I drive over 2.5 hours just for regular Schutzhund *training*. In the past year my breeding dog has showed/competed in four different states, one being over 9 hours drive one way.

$750 still seems really high to me if the breeder is truly just covering cost and yet not doing jack with the dogs. Other dogs are priced higher because the owners have already put in $10K+ in training, health certifications, DNA analysis, reproductive exams, breed survey, and titles for just one dog. I'd probably have to breed my dog 30+ times to even come close to covering the cost involved with training and exhibiting him to his potential and for me that's not a one-time thing, that cost is still adding up. I'm still a member of several clubs and we compete once a month.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

SDG said:


> I would respectfully ask that you read this article by Chris Wild. It really helped me to understand the importance of choosing your dog's ancestors VERY carefully.
> 
> (Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )



Excellent link. 

Also, I have family in ND, have been there many times, have some friends working there in the oil fields. Trust me. There are plenty of dog diseases there. Parvo can live in the soil up to ten years. Even in Bismark.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> I drive over 2.5 hours just for regular Schutzhund *training*. In the past year my breeding dog has showed/competed in four different states, one being over 9 hours drive one way.
> 
> $750 still seems really high to me if the breeder is truly just covering cost and yet not doing jack with the dogs. Other dogs are priced higher because the owners have already put in $10K+ in training, health certifications, DNA analysis, reproductive exams, breed survey, and titles for just one dog. I'd probably have to breed my dog 30+ times to even come close to covering the cost involved with training and exhibiting him to his potential and for me that's not a one-time thing, that cost is still adding up. I'm still a member of several clubs and we compete once a month.


And there are breeders that don't do all that, yet still set their prices higher. People think if they pay alot they get a better dog, yet when you look at some breeder programs they are doing minimal and brag about the champion lines way back in the pedigree, but what they are breeding have nothing other than the OFA's and possible DM test.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I drive over 2.5 hours just for regular Schutzhund *training*. In the past year my breeding dog has showed/competed in four different states, one being over 9 hours drive one way.
> 
> $750 still seems really high to me if the breeder is truly just covering cost and yet not doing jack with the dogs. Other dogs are priced higher because the owners have already put in $10K+ in training, health certifications, DNA analysis, reproductive exams, breed survey, and titles for just one dog. I'd probably have to breed my dog 30+ times to even come close to covering the cost involved with training and exhibiting him to his potential and for me that's not a one-time thing, that cost is still adding up. I'm still a member of several clubs and we compete once a month.


 
:thumbup: I'm right there with you. I have thousands invested into my dogs to prove their worth. Unfortunately people don't know what they don't know until they can put their guards down and want to learn. It's a shame really.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Aramazd said:


> I do have a health guarantee. His warranty even states that if I choose to give up the dog he would like to have first rights to have it back or try to help me with it and refund the purchase.


yeah, that was my experience not yours. Sorry to confuse you.

It's obvious your mind is set. It was probably set before you started this thread. You are being very defensive and argumentative not really looking or accepting advice. 

Good luck to you and your new puppy.


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Ever hear of PARVO? Look it up...cold doesn't stop it. Since when do viruses care about the cold? And last I checked...North Dakota isn't that much farther north than Wisconsin, and we get pretty warm here in the summer. I do recall that I played a few rounds of golf in 90 degree plus weather this summer. But I guess you're just so much farther north that you're lucky not to have disease. I guess we're also so much farther south that we don't get cold weather. Just a heads up...the temperature here consistently gets below freezing in the winter...doesn't do much to kill off the disease.


It keeps a lot of crap away. Don't have termites, don't have ticks (only in certain woody areas, but they cant survive so their population isn't super high). We don't have cockroaches(which is weird because I thought they would live everywhere). The first time we had bedbugs in the state is when some African immigrants came and brought them with them. It does help, doesn't totally destroy diseases, I get my yearly cold all the time. 

Top coldest cities in USA : It doesn't List Williston because a population of 12,000 wasn't considered a city, it will next time they do the list. 

This is by Average temps throughout the whole year. This is Americas Siberia. I love sun dogs and throwing water into the air when its -20C or colder, the water cryastalizes into tiny particles and goes "Poof!"




Grand Forks, ND (housing, pop. 50,372): 5.3 degrees F 



2. Fargo, ND (housing, pop. 90,056): 6.8 degrees F 



3. St. Cloud, MN (housing, pop. 66,228): 9.4 degrees F 



4. Bismarck, ND (housing, pop. 58,333): 10.1 degrees F 



5. Duluth, MN (housing, pop. 84,167): 10.3 degrees F 



6. **** Rapids, MN (housing, pop. 62,207): 11.7 degrees F 



7. Rochester, MN (housing, pop. 96,975): 11.8 degrees F 



8. Eau Claire, WI (housing, pop. 63,297): 12.0 degrees F 



9. Blaine, MN (housing, pop. 55,144): 12.1 degrees F 



10. Brooklyn Park, MN (housing, pop. 69,942): 12.3 degrees F


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I get the flea, tick, heartworm thing when it's that cold but parvo is a virus and it doesn't get killed by cold. However I'd assume the dogs/puppies are being vaccinated so I don't see any more parvo risk than anywhere else. I don't really have a problem with puppies being "outside" without knowing the full setup. I got a puppy from a breeder recommended all over the place on this forum and he was "outside" (in a barn with a puppy pen). He was just fine


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Aramazd said:


> It keeps a lot of crap away. Don't have termites, don't have ticks (only in certain woody areas, but they cant survive so their population isn't super high). We don't have cockroaches(which is weird because I thought they would live everywhere). The first time we had bedbugs in the state is when some African immigrants came and brought them with them. It does help, doesn't totally destroy diseases, I get my yearly cold all the time.


You're describing MOST of the northern states in the United States...

In Wisconsin, we don't have many ticks, just in wooded areas. We also don't have termites. You probably do have some cockroaches, you just don't see them because many times people will call in someone to take care of them the moment they see a few. Bedbugs are always brought in by travelers...

Trust me, you have all the same diseases up there that most of us in the northern US deal with. They aren't crazy prominent here either. It's not like I pull a tick off of my boy every time we go into the woods...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I get the flea, tick, heartworm thing when it's that cold but parvo is a virus and it doesn't get killed by cold. However I'd assume the dogs/puppies are being vaccinated so I don't see any more parvo risk than anywhere else. I don't really have a problem with puppies being "outside" without knowing the full setup. I got a puppy from a breeder recommended all over the place on this forum and he was "outside" (in a barn with a puppy pen). He was just fine


I don't have a problem with it either...I have a problem with a super duper expensive fence being a selling point. I've never been around a breeder that went..."look at my puppies...but check out this sweet fence I built for them because I love them so much."


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL yeah. I spend almost $800 just on my fence gate (one of my mutts is a digger and since he's big and strong he was basically pulling apart the previous chain link). Maybe I should put that in a stud contract?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't know where you got those stats because they're COMPLETELY WRONG. I just looked up the average temperature for Fargo, ND on weather.com and the average temperature in January and December is 6 degrees. The average in July is 82, and all the other months fall in between. So there is no way using any kind of accepted math, the average temperature through the whole year is 6.8 degrees.

According to wikipedia the average low temperature over the whole entire year for the last 30 years is 32 degrees. The average high is 52 degrees. And just so you realize that I deal with almost the same thing: the average low in Milwaukee is 40 and the average high is 55. Shockingly enough your average high for July (the warmest month of the year) is actually higher than in Milwaukee.

If you're going to try to convince me your living conditions are unbearable, at least use actual data.

Your city of Williston is only 5 degrees north of Milwaukee. A degree is about 70 miles. So you're only 350 miles north of where I live...and contrary to popular belief, that's not much when it comes to weather and cold fronts moving through. We probably get 95% of the cold fronts that you get, just about 12 hours later than when they come through ND. I've dealt with the cold Canadian air just as much as you have...and so have plenty of viruses and diseases.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm on your side here, martem, but I will say that the cold up there is qualitatively different from the cold down here.

It is raw and frigid and dry. It FEELS colder and is probably harsher in a lot of ways because it is so dry. I remember moving to Iowa and later to the Twin Cities and being amazed at how much more humid and less harsh the winter weather felt.

That said, I don't think it necessarily kills more microbes. I'd need to see better evidence than what was posted.

(And I promise I will shut up now!)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Aramazd said:


> Some of them I am confused about what you guys mean.


And when you are confused, you become angry and defensive? There's no need for that. I hope you came here to learn, because several people are taking time out of their day to try to *help* you. You asked a question, you are getting some answers that you understand, and some answers that are confusing. What are you still confused by?

Personally, I don't give a frog's fat patootie whether this breeder is breeding for money, or what your local economy is like, or what the cost of gas and fencing is, or any of that nonsense. All I care about is the dogs and puppies in question and why the breeder has chosen to breed these particular dogs. I don't care how much he chooses to sell puppies for. I just don't like to see people getting taken by breeders who have no idea what they are doing. Not saying his intent is bad, or that he's *trying* to rip anyone off, he is probably a really nice guy who thinks he's doing the right thing, but he could be doing a LOT better. He probably doesn't even realize there's a whole 'nuther way to go about breeding dogs--most people don't. There are many tests, checks and balances to ensure proper health and temperament in the GSD, and it takes a lot of thought, planning, and testing to choose the right breeding partners. It's way more complicated than buying a dog and a bitch of the same breed and letting them have a litter. If you are spending the money, you may as well buy the best you can, because you will be spending 10+ years with this animal. Do you have kids? Other animals? Neighbors? They will all appreciate a well-bred, well-socialized, well-trained GSD.

As I said, if you're dead-set on this puppy because he is "cute" and you want a puppy RIGHT NOW, and you want to spite all of us and show us how wrong we are, go for it. It doesn't hurt us, and maybe you will get lucky and have a great dog with no problems whatsoever. It's risky, but if you really trust that this guy will honor his guarantee, at least there is that.

By the way, my husband grew up in Mandan, and his family has a cabin in Spearfish that we try to visit each year. Beautiful country, I love it there, though I've never spent a winter in the Dakotas--I kind of want to, as this California resident has never experienced that kind of cold, and I'm curious what it's like! Don't know if I'd want to live there during the winter, but I just want to experience it for a few days to see how my husband grew up.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

WateryTart said:


> I'm on your side here, martem, but I will say that the cold up there is qualitatively different from the cold down here.
> 
> It is raw and frigid and dry. It FEELS colder and is probably harsher in a lot of ways because it is so dry. I remember moving to Iowa and later to the Twin Cities and being amazed at how much more humid and less harsh the winter weather felt.
> 
> ...



The OP is not the only one that lives in the cold, dry, North.  There are even people on the forum from *gasp* CANADA! 


Anyhow, so OP, you said you were going to ask the breeder some questions last night? Well?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

We have Parvo too eh


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> Anyhow, so OP, you said you were going to ask the breeder some questions last night? Well?


Nah. We're going to get a puppy pic, "THIS IS VAN," and then everyone will ooh and aah about how adorable he is.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Wow! I believe the op has taken a lot of what was posted here and did further research..I also believe while you all are saying stick around.. he is trying to make small talk to be a part of this forum and to stop the arguments and isn't being let up on..His decision is made..I hope his pup gives him years of happiness..I hope he sticks around on this forum..i would like to watch his dogs growth and progress ..I, as many of you, wish him the best and welcome hme to this forum...jan


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jang said:


> .I hope he sticks around on this forum..i would like to watch his dogs growth and progress ..I, as many of you, wish him the best and welcome hme to this forum...jan


Yes, wow!
As long as he quits calling people nasty names and stops accusing them of things they did not do, I have no problem with him sticking around.

Pet peeve of mine: new person asking for opinions, only to turn around attack with foul language and accusations of snobbery and elitism when the answers are not to his liking.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> The OP is not the only one that lives in the cold, dry, North.  There are even people on the forum from *gasp* CANADA!
> 
> 
> Anyhow, so OP, you said you were going to ask the breeder some questions last night? Well?


mostly I'm just trying to be understanding. And not mean.

Also, I like to assume everyone comes at things logically but that doesn't always work out for me...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Blunt doesn't equal mean. 

Unless you're in the Rainbow Factory, maybe. Or 3rd grade.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Blunt doesn't equal mean.
> 
> Unless you're in the Rainbow Factory, maybe. Or 3rd grade.


I know. And once I'm more comfortable you'll probably see me be more blunt. I don't know y'all that well right now.

I did feel bad that he was upset, even if it was of his own making. I was hoping he would maybe feel less like everyone was against him. Especially because I think he's already got his mind made up.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

RocketDog said:


> Blunt doesn't equal mean.
> 
> Unless you're in the Rainbow Factory, maybe. Or 3rd grade.


Or in the Dagobah system. 

Sorry geek in me rears it head at weird time. 


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

LMAO gsdsar

WateryTart, do you have origins across the pond?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> I know. And once I'm more comfortable you'll probably see me be more blunt. I don't know y'all that well right now.
> 
> I did feel bad that he was upset, even if it was of his own making. I was hoping he would maybe feel less like everyone was against him. Especially because I think he's already got his mind made up.
> 
> ...


Would have helped if he had taken the advice graciously and refrained from swearing at people who were sincerely offering their assistance and taking time out of their lives to answer the question he posted.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> LMAO gsdsar
> 
> WateryTart, do you have origins across the pond?


WateryTart is from Texas


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> WateryTart is from Texas


Someone, somewhere, has some Brit in them with that username.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

RocketDog said:


> Someone, somewhere, has some Brit in them with that username.


I just looked it up. 

Wish I hadn't


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I just looked it up.
> 
> Wish I hadn't



I was thinking more along these lines:


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> LMAO gsdsar
> 
> WateryTart, do you have origins across the pond?


Nope, just a total Monty Python fan!

I'm actually in the upper Midwest, not Texas!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

WateryTart said:


> Nope, just a total Monty Python fan!
> 
> I'm actually in the upper Midwest, not Texas!
> 
> ...


I like you already. 

Surely the OP will recover. It's only a flesh wound, after all.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> I like you already.
> 
> Surely the OP will recover. It's only a flesh wound, after all.


He'll bite your legs off!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

WateryTart said:


> Nope, just a total Monty Python fan!
> 
> I'm actually in the upper Midwest, not Texas!
> 
> ...


Love Monty Python. Totally judge those that don't get it. 

Personally a HUGE Anglophile. Watch more BBC than anyone I know. But I am dry and twisted. Most people don't get my humor. 

Of course now that I have reread the post it does not sound nearly a sayids as I first read it. But again, I see geek in almost everything. Don't get me started on Bow ties. Bow ties are cool. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

gsdsar said:


> Of course now that I have reread the post it does not sound nearly a sayids as I first read it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Nearly as YODA as I read it. **** autocorrect. Does not even make sense. 



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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I like you guys.

That is all.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am raising another generation of fans. My boys loved this


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sunflowers said:


> I am raising another generation of fans. My boys loved this
> 
> Monty Python - Spam - YouTube


You are doing it right!!! No child should be raised without learning the joys of Monty Python, Star Trek/Wars, Doctor Who, but that's me. 


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## Lady Lulu (Sep 6, 2011)

know I'm a little late coming to this conversation, but I would have to agree with the people who don't care for the sire's topline. All that aside, I just wanted to let you know that I understand what it's like to want to buy a dog but not be sure where to turn or what to look for. I've always lived way out in the country where most people don't put a lot of stock into what breed or bloodline their dogs are. So when I went to try to find a breeder in my area, it was near impossible. I ruled out a few closer breeders in favor of someone that talked like they were legitimately responsible and professional about their breeding program. It didn't end well. My dog's breeder was basically an irresponsible woman just looking to make as much money off her animals as she could. Everything she told me she did or didn't do turned out to be a lie and I didn't realize it until after the fact. I paid $400 for a pet/companion quality 6 month old pup. The dog loved me and my children but would try to attack anyone that came around the house. Turns out the dog was very unstable and very fearful and after I was bitten while intercepting her from lunging at my grandfather, the breeder took her back because I refused to keep her. I found out then that I couldn't get my money back. I could just agree to accept another puppy from her or be out of luck. While I wasn't happy about getting a puppy from her because I then realized she was breeding her dogs as often as possible, I didn't want to eat $400. (It's backwoods Kentucky, at the time $400 felt like a lot of money.) 

The six month old pup I bought came with a health guarantee so long as I had her checked out by a vet within three days. I didn't understand that because most problems develop later in life. My replacement pup, which was basically pushed off on me before she was even six weeks old, (I swear the breeder was calling wanting to know when I'd come get her), came with no health guarantee because apparently, the breeder waived that out of spite because I didn't keep the first dog. I took the second pup and was just glad to be done with the whole fiasco. Told myself that I'd raised dogs all my life, I could raise this one to be well balanced despite the shoddy background she had. 

Four months later, my puppy is amazingly sweet, playful, she's my baby. Only problem is she has a limp that won't go away. We get her checked out and she has dysplasia in her left elbow and left hip. The vet questioned if it was from an injury because it was odd for it not to be on both sides. Given I did trip one night and stumble over the puppy. I didn't fall on her, but it was enough for me to question it. But out of politeness, because my wonderful breeder had decided to go pro and was expecting another round of litters and charging $900 a pup, I contacted her to let her know that there was a possibility that my pup had inherited her joint problems. I was thinking that I was giving the woman a courteous head's up in the event someone later on tried to go after her for medical bills or sue her. 

The woman ended up going batcrap crazy on me. I was making false accusations, I had no health guarantee, she wasn't liable to pay for any of the surgeries or x-rays. She even told me that I was a negligent owner for allowing them to "contort" my dog's joints so they could x-ray her and find her dysplasia. I worked for a vet, I knew what I was talking about when I told her my dog's problems. I never meant to make her pay for anything but it was very clear she wanted to cut ties with me as quick as humanly possible. On my Lulu's six month birthday we took her to Louisville and they operated on her left elbow. Then, while she was healing, we had our vet spay her and remove her very loose and floppy rear dewclaws. We were both afraid of an accidental litter with joint problems and afraid she'd tear a dewclaw when she was able to play again. 

I try to tell myself that everything happens for a reason and that I was meant to get Lulu because I'd had a GSD with dysplasia in the past and knew how to deal with it. But in all honesty, I would love to have been spared the stress and the heartache of dealing with an ignorant and irresponsible breeder. If you went ahead and got your pup, I wish it a lifetime of good health and you a long relationship with it full of happiness. I just wanted to put my two cents in on why you should be cautious when settling for a pup just because it's closer to you.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lulu, what a heartfelt post. I wish you the best. 



I'm hoping the OP comes back with an update on the conversation he/she's had with the breeder.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Doesn't look like the OP will be back with any answers. Would've been interesting to hear about the reasons for the breeding.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I wouldn't be back either...


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

jang said:


> I wouldn't be back either...



Why? Are you reading the same thread I am? The only one getting riled up here was the OP. BUT....

OP said he was going to ask the breeder some of the questions posed by Lies, others. If he is happy with the answers, why wouldn't he come back and say "I felt comfortable because she/he said X about why they bred so early, Y about these two dogs being bred together..." etc. If you're happy with your decision then let the cards fall where they may. Too many people hide behind vague statements. Own your decisions, it's what grown-ups do.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Yeah I was really interested to hear what the breeder had to say about why he chose the dogs he did for breeding, and his reason for linebreeding on untitled, untested dogs.

Maybe he has a secret gold mine of genetics that none of us know about!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If OP was so happy to try and prove their breeder was great because he built a fence for his dogs, why wouldn't he try to prove it after getting some legitimate answers from the breeder that actually have to do with the dogs and not their surroundings.

Or maybe the weather in the American Siberia dropped to 50 below and the internet went out...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

C'mon folks, who hasn't read the Little House on the Prarie books. Read the Long Winter and These Happy Golden Years. That was Dakota Territory, and the thermometer often went to forty below there and falling, so I do believe the dude is in an area where it gets pretty nasty cold. 

That website, policedogs or whatever where they list Limonite and Iron in their prose, well it kind of made me feel like a pretty brainless git for not knowing who those awesome dogs were. I mean, they do not have to list their accomplishments if the dogs are household names like Mohammed Ali and George Foreman right? 

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, than baffle them with bull-ony, right?

He's going to get the puppy, and it has 18 toes or 16 if this is the one they cut the dews off of. It may be just fine. Maybe they have the pup already and he isn't back because he is playing with the puppy and getting it used to everything in the house, and working on potty training, and doing those sleepless whiney nights and all.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If it gets nasty cold in North Dakota...I feel bad for all of our members in Canadia, eh? Or does the cold air skip them and just park itself just over North Dakota?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't read much Canadian Literature. I read the Call of the Wild and White Fang -- not sure if that was set in Canada or Greenland or some bloody cold place up that way. Of course, those are fiction. But a good author of fiction usually gets facts about his setting straight. 

Yes, some of our Canadian buddies have some cold weather. I used to think that if Ohio is this cold, Canada has to be gruesome cold all year long. But I have been up to a few places like Toronto, and it wasn't much different than Ohio. 

On the other hand, we do not go much below ten below here in Ohio. And the last few years have been pretty whimpy -- almost afraid to say that. But when I ran out of fuel in March or April, I just didn't even bother getting more until this October. Back in the old days we had snow on Halloween, and the roads were covered in November and never became uncovered until April. Nowadays we have a storm that lasts a couple of days, and then we have a thaw. The dogs are soggy for six months. Then the spring rains come. And then the summer monsoons, and then the couple of days where the trees change color and back to the snow/thaw sog that just permeates everything. 

Darn! I lost my Northern Light! And I feel my SADD creaping up on me! I think it finally stopped raining in the last hour or so. No chance at getting any vitamin D from the sunshine here!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Of course it's frigid and yes, they get blizzards to beat he/l back there. Luckily, we do not-- *most of us* -- live in tar-paper shanties anymore, where there is no help for a blizzard but hoping you bump into the corner of the last building at the end of town. 

But this still doesn't excuse not doing the proper research on breeders, or listening to the answers when you ask for opinions.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Of course it's frigid and yes, they get blizzards to beat he/l back there. Luckily, we do not-- *most of us* -- live in tar-paper shanties anymore, where there is no help for a blizzard but hoping you bump into the corner of the last building at the end of town.
> 
> But this still doesn't excuse not doing the proper research on breeders, or listening to the answers when you ask for opinions.


You mean you didn't run a rope from the house to the barn so you couldn't get lost in the storm? You live dangerously...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RocketDog said:


> Of course it's frigid and yes, they get blizzards to beat he/l back there. Luckily, we do not-- *most of us* -- live in tar-paper shanties anymore, where there is no help for a blizzard but hoping you bump into the corner of the last building at the end of town.
> 
> But this still doesn't excuse not doing the proper research on breeders, or listening to the answers when you ask for opinions.


Ah, you've read them! 

Nah! I wasn't saying that, just going after the sarcasm about the American Siberia stuff. It is cold there, and expensive, fine. But if it is expensive, then buying a dog bred with the deck stacked in your favor with respect to health makes a ton of sense. If housing/real estate, gas, and everything esle is expensive, vet bills will be expensive, and if the weather is cold and blizzardy all the time, then driving hundreds of miles to any vet, much less a cheaper vet is no fun at all. Take it from a pro, driving a 2-hour in good weather journey to a vet with a bitch who needs a c-section, in a snow storm is no fun at all.

So if the area is expensive and the snow and cold are oppressive, stack the deck in your favor with regards to health and temperament, so the amount of time and money you spend with vets, behaviorists, and training classes is normal instead of excruciating.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> You mean you didn't run a rope from the house to the barn so you couldn't get lost in the storm? You live dangerously...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You've read them too! 

I am reading them to my nieces who are seven and almost seven. I started a few years ago, as I only read on Sundays. But we are half-way through By the Shores of Silver Lake. We have already nearly lost Pa in the blizzard at Plum Creek, Minnesota (I think) where he at the Christmas candy in his new Buffalo coat, and Mr. Edwards had to go and meet Santa Clause for them to have their Christmas candy and such down the Virdigis (spelling?) River in Little House on the Prarie I think. But I haven't gotten to the gruesome winter stuff with them where they are starving and freezing. Soon. I think I got to get through Little Town on the Praire first, and then the Long Winter. 

The younger one is working her way through Little House in the Big Woods, and Harry Potter and the Sourcerer's Stone right now. We are kind of racing. I am trying to work my way through the Spanish version and keep up with her in English, but she is reading all kinds of different stuff for school too. 

Ok, off topic.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> You've read them too!
> 
> I am reading them to my nieces who are seven and almost seven. I started a few years ago, as I only read on Sundays. But we are half-way through By the Shores of Silver Lake.


I don't remember much of that book. I do remember they go to stay with relatives at a railroad camp so Pa can work. Have they moved out of the railroad camp yet?




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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> I don't remember much of that book. I do remember they go to stay with relatives at a railroad camp so Pa can work. Have they moved out of the railroad camp yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope. Mention has been made of the surveyor's house, but Pa and Laura just spent an afternoon watching the guys build the railroad. 

This is really hard because the girls just want to know if the girl in this story is going to marry the boy in Farmer Boy. And I know what is coming up, and I can't say. They are good about paying attention though. Even the dry stuff like how the scrapers and the plows run around in circles making dirt. 

Also between Plum Creek and Silver Lake, a new baby and Scarlet Fever and sever years pass. One of my nieces has some serious issues with her eyes, and her biological sister is blind, so the fact that Mary is blind is interesting to them too. 

They are much more interested when we read about horse thieves and dangers, and riding the black ponies and stuff. The books are pretty good, really.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

We've really effectively hijacked now! But yes, the books are great. I loved them when I was little and they were among the first I read independently.

I think it's awesome that you and your nieces can enjoy them together.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

"Read" them?! That's very close to how I grew up in Montana. They were my guide.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> "Read" them?! That's very close to how I grew up in Montana. They were my guide.


So you learned how to make maple candy with snow and make a balloon out of a pig bladder and dig a well and build a log cabin and survive a blinding blizzard by tying rope guides and twisting hay to make sticks?


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## Caitlin (Mar 28, 2005)

opcorn:


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

WateryTart said:


> So you learned how to make maple candy with snow and make a balloon out of a pig bladder and dig a well and build a log cabin and survive a blinding blizzard by tying rope guides and twisting hay to make sticks?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Even head cheese.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Even head cheese.


That is a thorough adherence to the guide.

Speaking of Laura Ingalls Wilder as a guide, there was a mayoral candidate in my city who believe she is God.

...are you him?

(I kid!)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

No, unless I've suddenly become male, hee hee.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I can certainly see myself burning my fingers on the bullets, and the pig's tail, LOL! 

I was kind of hoping the OP would come back. Considerate of talking about the great pioneers of that state. 

I think some of the people around here ARE adding tar-paper to their trailers, in hopes for reducing the fuel bills. Wood burners are in too. But twisting hay into sticks wouldn't fly here. We have had a couple of bad years crop-wise, and have had to ship in hay. People are having to sell their horses because they can't get hay. I am not sure of this year, but last year, it is what the people were telling me in the tack room. I don't think people would be burning that up. 

We had a wood burner growing up. We would set the wood down on the hearth to dry before adding it, and the spiders would wake up and jump out. We kept a pot of water on the top to add some moisture into the air. 

I wish we could make ice-cream, and pick watermellons out of the field, and all the rest of it. I think I liked Farmer Boy best, specially because it had a good ending.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

selzer said:


> I can certainly see myself burning my fingers on the bullets, and the pig's tail, LOL!
> 
> I was kind of hoping the OP would come back. Considerate of talking about the great pioneers of that state.
> 
> ...



Almanzo had quite a good upbringing comparatively to Laura. He was practically rich.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Almanzo had quite a good upbringing comparatively to Laura. He was practically rich.


But he grew up with Lazy Lousy Lizy Jane.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Maybe the OP will come back, but until then, can we let this OT discussion die, please. ADMIN Lisa


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## Aramazd (Nov 2, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Maybe the OP will come back, but until then, can we let this OT discussion die, please. ADMIN Lisa


Wonderful puppy. Already potty trained and knows a few commands.. But..Honestly I am not coming back again. Last post... most of you have opinions but really they arent its your beliefs like a religion. You also sound like there is only 10 breeders out there "reputable" as you say. Asked my breeder all those questions and was satisfied with all the answers that I got. However I'm not going to tell any of you ****. You can talk all you want about me after this but honestly this is a total elitist "click" if ultimate breeders. You are wonderful for breeding great dogs but your sad I didn't buy it from you. That's how I felt after my initial post. Talked on a few other dog forums and they also mentioned the problems that could happen with bad breeders but they didn't degrade me and the funny thing is that they did also mention this forum is full of elitists. Have a great day posting off yhr wall remarks after this post. One last thing, those that hoped that my puppy grows up yo be a wonderful pet, Thsbk you!


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