# Why so much dog/dog aggression?



## Bridget01 (Jun 27, 2016)

I have a theory I'd like to test here. My husband and I have discussed why it is that so many dogs in homes and that we see at the shelter are dog aggressive, when that didn't seem to be the case or much of a problem when we were young in the 60s. I have thought in the past that it was because we, as humans, have lost our leadership ability. My father was a great animal lover, but it never would have even OCCURRED to him that his dog would disobey him, and she never did. Adults were just like that back then. We often had friends who stopped by with their dogs and it never occurred to anyone in the family that the dogs wouldn't get along. We traveled by trailer and once we stayed at a campground for a week and a big male GSD practically lived with us; again, never entertained the thought that he and our poodle would fight and they didn't. Then I thought maybe more than the leadership thing it was because we didn't expect to have trouble. Fast forward to today and we all expect there will be problems. All the trainers tell us long winded instructions about how to properly introduce (never did any of that back in the day). We hold our breath and pray there won't be a problem. My granddaughter will only eat certain foods if her parents are around. When we care for her in our home (without mom and dad), she eats whatever we're having, perhaps because it is our expectation that she will. I am thinking that animals, as well as children, tend to behave the way we expect them to. Do I have a point or not?


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I think it also comes down to bad genetics from back yard breeders


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## Bridget01 (Jun 27, 2016)

Yes, that may be part of it too. I do notice that at dog shows you almost never see this, so that lends credence. 


Another thing I am thinking is that we have elevated our dogs to children status and elevated our children to mini gods. And have trouble disciplining both.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I think part of it is people are too sensitive now a days. Back then, dogs probably got into fights and settled things. Now, we can't imagine our dogs getting into a fight, without getting a $2k vet bill or getting a law suit. This along with the garbage that is being bred in all breeds. I visited a good ol boy down south. He bred american bulldogs and pitbulls. These dogs were working dogs used to catch hogs. One of the bull dogs decided to grab his teenage kid and pull him towards he kennel. That dog met his maker on the spot. No fuss. No emotions. That was not acceptable behavior and it would not be passed on. Period. He didn't make a emotional assessment and try to figure out why the dog did what he did. No excuses. No negotiations. Dog had to go.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

eddie makes a good point.When I was a kid the difficult dogs were either put down or lived their lives chained in the backyard.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm going to limit my response to shelter GSDs -- not whatever other breeds you may be looking at in shelters. Unlike most people who think they know what shelter dogs are like based on a single visit to adopt or what's on the news, I actually know shelter dogs from being in the trenches -- I volunteered for years as a breed coordinator for a large public shelter that gets in at least a hundred GSDs a year, and then I handled tons of shelter evaluations and pull decisions for breed rescue.

Shelter GSDs are usually extremely stressed out, due to the density of their housing, and often only having a piece of fencing separating them from other strange dogs. Some shelters are pandemonium -- nonstop barking, shrieking, wailing, and baying (and kennel workers wearing ear plugs). As a group, GSDs tend to due very poorly in shelters and suffer more than other breeds (they often stop eating, get depressed, and withdraw) -- that tells you how much the stress affects them. This means whatever read you get on them is going to filtered through that stress.

The number of shelter GSDs that are truly *dog* *aggressive *has been low in my experience. Prey drive toward small dogs and cats is very common -- and that prey drive DOES get mis-labeled as "dog aggression" in some shelters (and it's an unfair reason for automatic euthanasia in some shelters). I've gone to bat for GSDs put on euth lists at public shelters due to prey drive -- and one of them just earned his BH in his forever home. 

Sometimes dogs have an inability to read other large dogs' intentions. One rehabilitator told me she thinks it's like a dog version of autism, where the dog just can't speak "dog" by reading canine body language. Those are ultra-rare cases, in my experience -- it's incredibly interesting to watch a dog struggling to process their interest, confusion, and reactions, though. 

More often, what a shelter labels as "dog aggression" is really just fearfulness. That can be bad in itself, but it tends to be a broader problem than just not knowing how to behave around other dogs.

I've had quite a few dogs who were wrongly labeled as "dog aggressive" by shelter staff come live in my home, mixed in with my own personal dogs, without any problems. One of them was my favorite foster dog of all time, an excitable senior female who had barked at other dogs through the kennel fencing and thus earned herself the stupid dog aggressive label. That one actually _loved _other dogs and ended up spending her final years best-friends with a little beagle, and they cuddled together on the sofa. Her label was the product of someone not knowing the difference between excitement-barking and malevolent intentions in this breed.

Bossy female GSDs also tend to get the dog aggressive label in shelters. Anyone who's lived with those strong, alpha-female types knows the personality. They need strong handling, and usually need to not live with another female. They aren't truly dog aggressive though. I've seen shelters sometimes try to temperament test one of those alpha-female GSDs with another large female, setting up a reaction that wouldn't have happened had they used a male.

Take a look at videos how the ASPCA S.A.F.E.R. test used by most shelters tries to identify dog aggression -- with a freaking nose-to-nose introduction...in an environment where their already stressed out. Some of those dogs are set up to fail.

I'm not saying there aren't dog aggressive GSDs in shelters. There definitely are some--and there are a few with a screw loose neurologically who don't need to be out in the community. However, it's not most of them -- at least in my area where we're flooded with more than a hundred GSDs a year in regional shelters.

I've also seen some dog reactive owned GSDs (not in shelters) who were protecting weak, fearful owners. The dog felt it had to guard the owner from The Big Bad Thing that they sensed that their owner feared. The dog had no idea what the Big Bad Thing might be, so to the dog, it was potentially everything, especially other dogs. Those are dogs who would act totally differently in the hands of a confident handler who simply told them to knock it off. 

So...I would say don't assume that "dog aggression" is a monolithic category in shelter GSDs. It's a waste bin shelters use to throw in everything from prey drive to alpha female bossiness to dog-killers, and it really needs to be talked about with more precision and care.


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## Bridget01 (Jun 27, 2016)

I absolutely agree with everything said here. The "sensitivity" was pretty much what I meant above, but you put it better. I think, back then, a dog without much of a chance wouldn't have picked a fight. And the general attitude would have been if they get their butt kicked they won't do that again. Not saying I think that is right, but it may have put more responsibility on the dog to demonstrate some brains(?) The owners maybe weren't ultra involved with the dog's feelings.


Magwart, thanks for the insights on GSDs in shelters. I too believe that GSDs suffer more in shelters than some other breeds. Another thing that irritates me to death (although I'm getting off on another subject) is the fake hand that they use to tell food aggression. No doubt in my mind that the dog realizes full well that that is not a human hand by the smell and that it just looks creepy, so it proves absolutely nothing. Yet, in some shelters the dog is euthanized as it is deemed food aggressive.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Reading 'Merle's Door' is an eye opener and fun to read.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

First off let me begin by saying you're all wrong and your opinions are invalid...lol jk.

I think it's important to work the problem backwards. What causes dog v dog aggression in the first place? Before we go there think on this. In third world countries with a homeless street dog problem that is endemic, you rarely see dog fights or encounter dog aggressive dogs despite the fact there is no human taught discipline or owners even involved.

Why? Because from a training standpoint there are 3 major factors to causing bad dog fights or causing dog v dog aggression or rather 3 major places dogs practice those behaviors. One is while dogs are on leashes. Two is dog aggression through fence fighting or other kinds of barrier aggression and three, which I suspect is the major culprit, dog parks and doggie daycares.

Dog walking and fenced in yards has always been a thing over the last few decades. The major thing that has changed is humanization of dogs and with the drop in human birth rate in the US the rise of the fur baby occurred. 

Dogs fights become more regular and more intense with more violent outcomes in a direct inverse proportion to the area of space they are given. Basically smaller contained space for dogs the more frequent the interactions the more violent those interactions become and also because there is no space to retreat and withdraw when the aggressor is attempting to drive you off the fight continues because flight is not an option.

You throw in the presence of an owner which is a resource/pack member and you create a powder keg.


Doggie daycares are another place where dogs can learn to fight if not properly managed (the vast majority are not properly managed)

The vast majority of dog fights in the US are probably happening at daycares or dog parks.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'm not that old and even I remember when the neighborhood dogs had no fences and people let them out in the morning and they ran as a pack all day.

I think Bailiff has some good points about fur baby ism. 

I would just add thelse possibilities:

-more people
-more dogs
-more leashes 
(how many dogs are REALLY dog aggressive vs leash reactive)
-more technology and thus lazier people, lazier fatter dogs
(was dog obesity worthy of an AKC Family dog magazine issue subject in the 80s? honest question, j didn't get that magazine n the 80s)

those are some of my thoughts


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## Bridget01 (Jun 27, 2016)

When our choc. lab was a puppy, my city had just gotten its first dog park. I was ecstatic. We now credit that little experiment as a large part of his dog aggression. Our next lab was never taken to dog park, just play dates with dogs we knew and low intensity meet and greets; she is and always has been fine with other dogs, no worries at all. Bears out what Bailiff is saying.


Since she was also our third dog, we probably didn't humanize her as much or pay as much attention to every nuance of her "self-esteem." So that might have also made a difference. And of course, her basic nature must be taken into account too.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

That's funny. My husband and I were just talking about this earlier this morning. Our suspicion is that back then, dogs were allowed to be dogs 90% of the time. Evidently, when dogs get to be dogs, they're much less aggressive, and much happier, in general.

Who'd have ever thought that. /sarc


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... I will pretty much agree with Bailiff about the Doggy Day Care and the Dog Park but ... there is an X factor. In a recent rare exception Rocky got nipped ... and I made some changes ... nother story. I pretty much don't do Dog Parks and I am most certainly not a Doggy Day Care person ... I trust no one with my dogs! Especially my Boxer but I digress .... 

So according to that ... I should have no problems??? It was a couple years ago in one of the never ending Dog Park debates where I was explaining how I have dealt with out of control dogs coming at mine 14 times successfully at that time. MAWL asked me a pretty simple question ... roughly ... "well if you don't do Dog Parks and you don't do Doggie Day Care .... "Where is all this crap happening???" Most likely it was a loaded question as she already knew the answer. 

But I thought about and I answered ... "Close to Home."* Bingo* ... Rocky and I, our very first encounter was from two door bolting herder dogs ... right across the street from me! And MAWL replied most dog v dog encounters occur "close to home!" I was stunned ... I don't know where that info came from but I don't need to. Today ... 18 attempts for me now and 17 out of 18 were close to home! 

Top of my head ... it's been three attempts from the South ... within five homes of me and three attempts from the South within Seven house of me ... the same suicidal Lhasa Apso, three freaking times! I have not seen him in a while ... most likely he either got hit by a car or finally encountered the wrong dog and the wrong owner??? And the Lhasa ... those dogs are seriously fast ... for the record! 

Still as for Dog Parks nope I just won't go ... I won't subject my dogs to the uncontrolled chaos of a Dog Park. The clueless and there dogs, their abound and these days most people eyes are glued on there Cell Phones not there dog and there issues dogs are not there problem. 

But for those that want to go anyway ... here's a head up.:
Three Dogs Who Shouldn’t Be at the Dog Park or Daycare | Robin Bennett

However that's about the dogs ... I've seen nothing about clueless owners??? People think, my Boxer friends almost got into a fist fight with another dog owners behavior ... sigh ... I said nothing. But you know ... Boxers ... alot of dogs don't like being punched in the face, circled at high speed and jumped on, so yeah.

Just saying ... other dogs issues, may be closer than one thinks ... X factor as it were.


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## Bridget01 (Jun 27, 2016)

You didn't tell how you successfully handled loose dogs coming at you. That is a big issue with our choc. lab, so I am very interested in knowing.


My opinion about dog parks is that there are some dogs who are just natural dog park dogs, have a great time, never a problem. But if you start having problems there, whether your dog is causing them or attracting them...give up quick. As for daycare, if the owner works long hours and has only one dog, I suppose it might be something to consider, but otherwise, I don't think dog needs it (they're not children). I think dogs need some downtime and need to learn to have downtime.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Also most dogs you see in parks are neutered or spayed and that adds to aggression is my experience. Deja is in tact and so were my males. Never shown dog aggression even when pestering dogs bothered them. They just shrugged it off and focused on playing. The only time they are exposed to other dogs is basically at the river in the summer. Because she ignores them and I step in when a dog comes over to pester her, I have never had an incident (knock on wood). It's annoying that I seem to be the only one to manage their dog. To my surprise most dogs though are focused on the fun of playing in the water.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Bridget01 said:


> You didn't tell how you successfully handled loose dogs coming at you. That is a big issue with our choc. lab, so I am very interested in knowing.


 LOL ... sorry these days I've said it so many times ... that I just "assume" everybody knows the story??? 

But since you asked ... here we go! My core principle is "No Dog, I Do Not No Gets To My Dogs With Intent To Do Them Harm" without getting past me first! And I did that for many, many years with my Bully's one of which ... my American Band Dawg (BullMasstiff/APBT/Lab) was more then eager to rumble! Where I got him ... there were Band Dawgs aplenty ... and you don't want to try and break that kinda of dust up so I didn't! I tell my Dogs "Stay" and I step in front! And I addressed the issue tool free! That worked just fine for many, many years. I did not use tools and I never had to make contact with a "Loose Dog!" But most of them were also "Bully's" and all they see is your dog!! If you got in the way ... they tended to loose focus, clueless owner scooped them up if they are around ... problem solved.  

But by and large ... my Band Dawg, my assorted Boxer/APBT mixes and my Boxer ... as far as I 
can recall ... maybe three attempts in 10 years???? But when I walked Rocky in NV (when we moved) crap went crazy??? My OS GSD and has "Zero Issue's" with other dogs. But for some reason ... I still do not understand??? He's is just a loose dog magnet??? So with him ... attempts went from 3 in thirteen years to 15 in four years and 18 now ??? And he does as he was trained to do with other dogs, which is "nothing!" But for some reason or another loose dogs seem to think ...yeah I can take that guy down???

My first Rocky and me stray dog encounter (close to home) is here.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

That was many many years ago .... when I still rolled tool free, despite me going down ... it worked out fine. 

But moving on ... time passes and I saw (here) others ... had these same issues as detailed here. : http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

I actually posted a clip from a trainer in there that offered some pretty good advise ... use a "Walking Stick" to block the charging dog ... yeah that was good advise but you know ... I don't need "tools" cause I'm good. 

Yeah well ... I should have listened to me! As apparently ... my total testosterone, driven anti dog counter measures, only works well with "normal dogs" when you can actually see them!" Under less then ideal conditions ie in total darkness ... "Rocky got nipped" when I went for a midnight walk on encounter number 16 ... I think?? We sailed into a "Perfect Storm" as it were and we encountered "that" Dog! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/687457-argggg-dog-attack.html

I messed up ... Rocky got nipped, I got distracted by the dogs doing what I expected behind a fence and did not see the "trained dog ... that did not!" A freaking Wl GSD as a matter of fact ex MWD DD, I found out later. And as the other dogs kept me distracted ... she went on task and she got past me, out the gate she went!! She brushed past my thigh ... I heard Rocky yelp and I turned and she apparently decided ... good enough ... I'm outta here! So Rocky got nipped, I was ticked ... and at that point ... I decided what I'd done before was no longer working??? So I said ... arrogant that I maybe ... "What Would Chip Do???" And I followed my own advise as given ... carry a walk stick to Block a Dog!! 

So I got one and sure enough ... I had the Waking stick .. one week and then this happened!:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...513-argggg-dog-attack-yet-again-but-time.html


LOL ... it was freaking epic! I did mess up, I should have maintained focus (as sigh ... I was close to home, and I knew that dog was there) but while ... I was the last one to become aware of the unfolding chain of events ... I was also the first one to Stop it, Cold! I never laid a hand on the dog ... so no need to apologize. Rocky and I went on our way with a "No Problem." So ... long way of saying if you have "loose dog encounters" on your hands ... on a routine basis?? Carry a Walking Stick to block that Dog ... other wise ... it maybe be a Larry Khron, style, hands on beat beat dog of a Chow mix. That happened while he was on a walk with a clients Dog aggressive (breed that shall not be mentioned) with his child in tow! That must have been exciting??? A Walking Stick Counter is a lot less exciting, he should have talked to me. 

But ... the look on that dogs faces when my Walking Stick came down in front of him ... was freaking priceless ... "Make better choices dog!" I train other peoples dogs for them, and these days ... I don't go on walks without my "stick!" So ... if you have loose dog issues ... now you know, carry a Walking Stick to block, the dog!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Has anyone ever read the "Buff the Collie" books? Or even the children's classic "Ribsy"? How about "Call of the Wild"?

Dogs fights in each one. Some pretty serious.

If a lone wolf runs into another, odds are one is not going to walk away alive. At the least, they'll be some injury (exception, male, female in heat). 

Dog fights certainly used to happen, but generally in situations where they "made sense" for example intact male vs. intact male. I'm not saying that's fine and all A-OK and everyone should just let it happen, but that's a clash that goes back through evolution for the ages... think about all the reasons why an intact male wouldn't want another intact male around.

I think once a sub-alpha dog has the snot kicked out of him a time or two, he stops picking fights and figures out how to avoid them. But now we keep putting dogs in situations where they feel the need to fight, whether right or wrong, and build up the urge to fight with leashes, restraints, and other artificial devices. Dog parks, doggie play groups, dog woods, and on and on. 

I firmly believe dogs were just as dog-aggressive back "in the old days" if not more so, but people were also around animals a lot more- horses for example were a primary means of transportation, you had to understand animals to get around in many cases. Then you kept the family cow for milk, a pig or goat or sheep for meat or wool, animals were everywhere. People understood that two stallions might not get along, that you castrated male cattle early if you didn't want the danger and hassle of a bull. Nowadays, so many people are able to completely avoid the animal nature of their companion pets. With it, comes the problems we are seeing.

Also, in the past, if your dog got in a fight and got hurt, it was just... eh. These things happen. Now it's posts all over Facebook trying to socially shame dog and owner, lawsuits, animal behaviorists stepping in to prescribe meds, dog trainers falling over each other to preach about click and treat, and Cesar Millan showing his magic on TV. Things are just more complicated.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I firmly believe dogs were just as dog-aggressive back "in the old days" if not more so, but people were also around animals a lot more- horses for example were a primary means of transportation, you had to understand animals to get around in many cases. Then you kept the family cow for milk, a pig or goat or sheep for meat or wool, animals were everywhere. People understood that two stallions might not get along, that you castrated male cattle early if you didn't want the danger and hassle of a bull. *Nowadays, so many people are able to completely avoid the animal nature of their companion pets. With it, comes the problems we are seeing.
> *
> Also, in the past, if your dog got in a fight and got hurt, it was just... eh. These things happen. Now it's posts all over Facebook trying to socially shame dog and owner, lawsuits, animal behaviorists stepping in to prescribe meds, dog trainers falling over each other to preach about click and treat, and Cesar Millan showing his magic on TV. Things are just more complicated.


Agree.

A lot of historical common sense has been lost. Leave strange dogs alone. Don't mess with animals while they're eating.  Build good solid fences to protect things you value. Not everyone gets along. Hormones are a game changer.

Animals fight. If you own more than a handful, sooner or later you'll end up patching an injury here or there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh, I think there are dog aggressive dogs out there. And maybe when people are breeding for aggression and drives, that might be a factor -- not so much BYB breeding, but people specifically breeding for traits that might be hand-in-hand with those. And then those dogs are sold and bred, and some folks are unconcerned with dog-aggression for the improvement a dog brings in the area of aggressiveness, drives, etc. Maybe. 

A LOT of dog-aggressive behavior is reactive behavior. And I think a LOT of dog-reactive behavior is due to people out there getting their dogs into all kinds fo situations before the dog has an opportunity to put their faith in this human. And maybe, some of the dogs don't put their faith in the human to protect them, because the human is unstable or not confident, not a good leader, so almost exactly what you are saying Bridget. 

I think there are different types of dog aggression: inter-pack aggression, often same-sex aggression within pack members, and I think this happens in homes where leadership is weak or dogs are very close in age and power and natural pack order. This type of aggression rarely transfers to dogs outside of the home/pack. And then intra-pack aggression where dogs attack dogs they are unfamiliar with, with or without other dogs from their pack. This is understandable given that dogs pack up for protection and hunting and will, in nature, fight with other packs of dogs -- kind of a territorial aggression along the path of survival of the fittest. However when the dogs choose a human as their leader, they will ordinarily allow the leader decide whether or not they want to fight with other dogs around them. And so long as the leader is trustworthy and stable, a confident dog might not go in search of fights, so long as their human is not giving off really bad signals. 

So we take our new dog out to classes and before their gonads and other hormones tell them they need to be on guard, they see other dogs with their people and so long as there are not any traumatic events, this becomes normal. Dogs like normal. Dogs relax in normal. And as the dog reacts, the person relaxes, and the dog relaxes more and the person relaxes more, and the bond of trust between dog and human (two-way) increases. Whoo hoo. 

Shelter dogs. We do not all get our dog at 8 weeks of age. So now we have a dog that may have had weak human leaders or unstable human leaders. The dog may even have been savaged by another dog. The dog may have learned a coping technique to protect himself from other dogs -- dog reactivity, where he barks and lunges like a nut and everyone gives him what he wants, space. They learn this coping mechanism and it works, it becomes a bad habit. 

Dogs live very much in the present, but a bad habit is not just going to always go away with a change in ownership. It is often suggested to give a dog a 2-week shut down when you bring in a new adult dog from a questionable background. Maybe from whatever background. You feed and water and take the dog out of course, but you do not make strong overtures to the dog, do not drag the dog everywhere, or start training. This gives the dog an opportunity to come to you for affection and leadership, to throw his lot in with you. 

A good leader in the dog world does not rush up to a new pack member, showering it with hugs and kisses and the like. A good leader maybe is one that waits for the new guy to come to him, and even then does not go to pieces with affection all at once. That behavior makes a dog feel less confident in the new owners. And a lot of this is about confidence and leadership.

I am not into the alpha dog leadership crap -- alpha rolls and the like. But there are human actions that make dogs uncomfortable, and those that make a dog feel comfortable, and if we can hold off our human-actions, attitudes, affection, until our dog knows us a little better -- a couple of weeks, even a couple of months. We might just create a super-bond with a dog. 

Dogs are not humans. How many times do I hear things like "I work to be paid, my dog does too." No. Your dog does what is expected of him to do to keep his current pack stable. It is not natural for him to do things for pay, even for treats. Though it works, sure, specifically with dogs whose food drive is high. But this is not necessary, nor really probably the best/most natural approach of training with the object of management. 

We bring our hand up in a sweeping motion above the level of the dog's eyes, which requires the dog to lift up his his head to continue to watch the progress of our hand, and this naturally moves the butt downward to the ground. "Good SIT." We communicate that the dog learned our hand signal, our body language. The dog did what was expected, the dog is good, the dog understands that good is stable, good is desired, the dog likes good, because good means that he understands what his person whats him to do, and he can do it and all is right with the world.

We need to train and manage and lead dogs with the perspective that the dog is a dog and not a human. Humans like to be asked, "would you like to sit?" "Could you please make a little less noise?" Not dogs. Dogs find that kind of leadership worry-some, unless he already knows you and knows what you mean. If I ask my dogs, "Would you like a piece of cheese?" they bound to the fridge and wait for my slow butt to get it. But mostly the dog prefers you to tell him what to do, so he can do it, and then you can either say, "Good" or not, but he knows what is expected and he does it. That's good in his world. 

When people blur the lines between skin-kids and fur-kids, they start using things like doggy day-care and dragging around diaper bags for the their dogs, putting clothes on them, and expecting from them a roll that is not really possible for a dog to fulfill. Dressing the dog up and taking pictures of them or putting a coat on a short haired dog in the winter-time so you can enjoy the outdoors is not what I am talking about. I think people are making babies out of dogs, and treating them like they as humans think appropriate, which is making the dogs less willing to trust the humans, and less confident about what they should and should not do. Which is the appropriate response:

Eh! No! MY Shoe! Don't EAT my Shoe! Bad! Go lay down!

or

Oh honey, that was Mommy's shoe... We mustn't chew on mommy's shoesies. Here, is a pig ear, that you can chew on instead. 

Or, my response which was absolutely nothing because I was sleeping when she did it and I should have had the shoes on a higher shelf or not in the room. I could have dressed her down for that, showed her the shoe and used may not-so-happy voice with her. And it may even have worked. But whatever. In the moment, my response is going to be closer to the first, than the second, the dog understands right away that wasn't acceptable, and will think about it before doing that again. 

And yes, people ARE that dumb these days. If they aren't expecting miracles out of 3 month old baby-puppies, they are treating their dogs like fragile little snowflakes. And neither is making the dog comfortable. 

It seems I've strayed from the dog aggression/dog reactive original question, but it all plays together. Dogs accept our leadership, but leadership is leadership across the board, there are just different symptoms that dogs will display if the leadership is wanting. Dog aggression and reactivity, and human aggression might be some of them. And we may try to improve our leadership in those areas, and not get very far, because we have to improve our leadership across the board with our dogs. 

Reasonable expectations
Good Training
Building confidence/trust both ways
Consistency in commands and follow through
Timing 
Communicating effectively, consistently, positively and negatively
Stability in demeanor (not over-reacting or displaying instability -- being trustworthy)

I am sure I am forgetting some. It is common sense, really. The problems we are seeing with dogs these days are more likely a lack of leadership ability in humans, than bad breeding or really anything else. If the dog can function for another person, say after being rehomed and given a chance to settle in and then begin to work on bad habits, etc, then the problem was not in the dog, it was on the human end of the leash. If a dog is truly unstable, because of genetic temperament or disease, then a change in ownership will not help.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Bridget01 said:


> My opinion about dog parks is that there are some dogs who are just natural dog park dogs, have a great time, never a problem. But if you start having problems there, whether your dog is causing them or attracting them...give up quick. As for daycare, if the owner works long hours and has only one dog, I suppose it might be something to consider, but otherwise, I don't think dog needs it (they're not children). I think dogs need some downtime and need to learn to have downtime.


I've got one of those good dog park dogs. She does very well at dog parks and at daycare. She's trained to have down time every day; my husband works from home full time, so four days a week, her job is to be calm and quiet from 9 AM to 5 PM. But we take her once a week in part because I work long hours and because we've been lucky to find a good one where the dogs are carefully monitored, grouped according to energy level and play style and who gets along well with whom, and it's a great way for her to burn off energy. She practically drags me in the door for her weekly trip to daycare, so I'm happy to supplement her exercise that way. It works for us, and I'm happy that we have the option to utilize off leash parks and daycare.



Kyrielle said:


> That's funny. My husband and I were just talking about this earlier this morning. Our suspicion is that back then, dogs were allowed to be dogs 90% of the time. Evidently, when dogs get to be dogs, they're much less aggressive, and much happier, in general.
> 
> Who'd have ever thought that. /sarc


I think so. I didn't own a dog until this one, but I well remember my older relatives' dogs from when I was a kid and how those dogs were treated. They were well treated and well trained, and they were very much loved, but they were treated as dogs: Animals with instincts and distinct needs that weren't the same as those of humans.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, it's not for lack of trying. 

People read books and websites on socializing their puppy -- I loved the 100 people, places, and things by 16 weeks, and this person was trying to be on schedule for reaching that. 

They use dog-parks and doggy day care from early on up, to ensure their dog is ok with other dogs. 

They train with all the latest gadgets or whatever is the going methods: prongs and pez dispensers. 

They watch all the u-tube-famous trainers. 

Maybe people are just trying too hard. They want too much, too soon, and are trying too hard, and driving their pups.


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