# Never thought I would have to post here..



## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

Ok, so I have 9 children in my house tonite. Ive let Arwen in and out all day and the kids have let her be all day. She will be 4 in October and we have had her since she was 10 weeks old. She has always been FANTASTIC with my kids (I have 5 daughters who have great dog manners, plus 2 step kids.) My stepkids, have no dog manners and I dont allow them to do anything at all unsupervised and without my permission. I have 2 of my friends children over tonite stying the night. Arwen was laying in the living room. My stepson and friends son both Age 7 were with me in the living room, as well as my 9 yr old and 8 yr old daughters. Arwen was laying quietly. I was watching a show with my daughters. My friends son had snuck up to Arwen (who was laying on her side) and her back was towards him. He pushed on her back and reached around her or something. Ive gotten a few different stories from him. She turned and got him on the cheek. No lacerations or anything. Maybe a bruise. I did see however that one of the kids had gotten her rolled rawhide bone down and gave it to her without me knowing. ( I had a pack of them on the counter) She was apparently chewing on it as it was where she was laying. I told him earlier in the day that we cannot go up to the dog and touch her without permission. Im always very very careful and no nonsense with dog manners with my kids and any other kid in my house. I immediately checked him over and he was ok, just stunned. Arwen started jumping in place and showed her teeth (not snarling) but showed her teeth. No barking, growling, nothing at all. I grabbed her on her collar and told her No and go outside. I let her out to chill. We are members of the GSDCGKC and just went to our club picnic this past saturday. I recieve tons of compliments on how wonderful she is with my kids each year and everyone raves about her good behavior. She is non reactive to other dogs (when they are obnoxious) and is just an all out good girl. Ive informed my friend. She is not angry with us at all. Her children are allowed to play pretty rough with their dogs. I dont allow it and Ben has been a good boy today. Arwen has not been around the kids much at all today as they were pretty rowdy and I seperated them because of that. My other kids were in bed when this happened. Im sick to my stomach over this. Im very careful with my kids and my dog. I dont know what to do. She is very socialized and Ive taken her EVERYWHERE. She was just at the lake with 13 kids over the 4th of July Weekend. She was kenneled at night. None of the kids had any issues with her and she had a blast. Any suggestions. She will be crated tonite and not allowed free run of the house while Ben is still here (til tomorrow afternoon). None of the kids will be allowed with her for the time being. I would appreciate any input on what to do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

She may have been overwhelmed with all the activity. The fact that she didn't growl before the snag or tag to me, means she was taken by surprise and just reacted. I would not make it into a big deal, but she needs space from kids that aren't her own pack. For her own safety and that of the kids. Dogs are dogs...they react with their mouth and voice. Just like a kid. Don't make a big deal of it, I don't personally think it was more than a "kneejerk reaction"
But we are always cautioned to supervise dogs with kids, and that sometimes means digilant watch of every move when you've got so much activity going on. That rawhide was hers and I think she was letting the boy know that he needed to just back off. I think you handled it right, and crating her when so many kids are over is the right thing to do.
Maybe in the morning Ben can give her a nice treat with you right there so she see's that he is a good boy!


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

thank you for such a quick response. Ive always been extremely careful and like I said, my girls definately know better and have attended every GSDC meeting the past 3 years with me. I have kept her seperated most of the day and playing with her at times when I had the kids occupied with movies and whatnot so she would not feel as if she was ignored. I had recently let her back in because it was bedtime and it had calmed down alot. She is definately used to being around alot of kids. I do think she was startled. She will be seperated again tomorrow until the extra kids leave. Im just trying to make sure Im doing the right things.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I totally agree with Jane


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think she got surprised and she reacted. 

The kid could have accidently hurt her when he grabbed her back too and she reacted. My family dog Kota bit me when I stepped on her foot once. I didn't mean to, she yelped and bit me. It hurt and it broke skin but she was sorry after she did it. She put her head down in my lap and licked the spot that she bit like she was saying she didn't mean to. I didn't yell at her because I knew it was my fault. She never bit anyone again.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

It sounds like she just got startled and reacted. Very normal behavior for any dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Wolfiesmom said:


> It sounds like she just got startled and reacted. Very normal behavior for any dog.


It sounds that way to me too, and those kids may have also been on her last nerve from earlier activities. Dogs can get tired and grouchy too.

I'd just MANAGE her in future situations like this. Make sure she's in the room with me or safe in her crate when it's a madhouse.


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

Yeah, she had been seperated from them about 90% of the day. She is NEVER unsupervised unless we are sleeping, never has been. Well, i take that back, if my 9 year old daughter invites her into her room, I allow her to as she is very responsible and just lets her lay on her floor as she does artwork at her desk. She is no longer crated at night. I didnt crate her last night but did Keep her confinded to a room that had no access from the kids. She usually gets up and moves out of the way or whatever when the kids come into the room. Ive also put the bones up and out of reach of the kids. I do feel much better about the situation and I will watch her even more. Shes outside for about an hour now, its a morning routine. She goes out for awhile before it gets too hot. I will keep her confined to the room again until the kids are gone. I appreciate all the input from everyone.


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## Cluemanti (Jun 25, 2010)

I've seen this happen a few times with different dogs and different breeds. Jumping up behind a dog and grabbing them seems to trigger a natural reaction with their mouths. 

I wouldn't think anything of it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

We had a GSD mix once when my daughter was very young. During nap time, he'd lay at the end of the hall way while she slept in her room. One day she surprised him by running down the hall and leaping on him. He bit her in the face, he was zoned out sound asleep. He didn't break the skin catching her on the bridge of the nose. She did have two black eyes. I'm sure you can imagine the chaos that followed. He actually urinated on himself it scared him so bad. 

He never bit anyone before, nor after. It was a bad moment in time. I made some changes to prevent it from happening again.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I agree with everyone else - it was a normal dog reaction.

Back when I had my first dog (GSD/Greyhound mix) we made a dog bed out of a baby crib mattress. The rule in the house was that when Noiya (the dog) was on her bed no-one was to bother her - especially kids (I have 17 nieces and nephews).

It's always a good thing to have a no-kid-zone set up for a dog that lives with kids. That way the dog KNOWS they can get away from the kids if they want and won't be stressed.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Am I the only one who thinks it's not okay for a dog to bite or snap at a child? In this case I agree the dog was spooked and meant no harm or else the end result would be much worse. However, I grew up with dobes my whole life and am the oldest of 7 children. Our dogs NEVER bit or snapped at a child and there were plenty around. As an adult I have had my lab for 8 years and Zoe the pup for 6 months. I have two children ages 6 and 9 and neither dog has ever bit or snapped at a child- if they did we'd probably be down a dog. I get the dog responded to probably a too rough grab or shove, but all the same that response would worry me. Temperaments should be solid enough to withstand this kind of action- not that a child should intentionally be rough with a dog either, but seriously that would freak me out

When my kids were young and learning they would grab at our dogs and of course we would correct them. If the dog doesn't like an action they usually retreat to another room though- not snarl. I would closely watch any children around your dogs as it seems you currently do because I don't see that response as okay. Next time could be a lot worse


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

I dont think its ok at all. Im not saying its ok. She does have her own child free area and children have NEVER been aloud to provoke her or there is serious punishment. This is my friends child. I know he is a rambuncious little boy and doesnt have any dog manners with their own dogs (mini schnauzer and a Lab/Weimeraner mix). He had been following my rules for over 24 hours when this happened. She knew she had done wrong.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Children with no dog manners are the worst and I sympathize believe me. I didn't think you were condoning the bite or rough play- I was just shocked most seem to blame the child more so than the dog. It sounded like the boy pulled or shoved on her while chewing a bone. No the boy should not have been rough but the dog should have retreated with the bone instead of snarled. That would make me nervous as you seem to be as well. Maybe no more chews around strange kids? I am sorry this happened it has always been my worst fear when we have other kids over. I stress the rules and keep a close eye, but some kids have less restraint than others. My dogs just hightail it upstairs to my room when their annoyed, but it's those what ifs that scare me I am a little sensitive to this topic since my neighbors dog just mauled our other neighbors dog for no reason and without provocation. Aggression is just not normal to me at all


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> Children with no dog manners are the worst and I sympathize believe me. I didn't think you were condoning the bite or rough play- I was just shocked most seem to blame the child more so than the dog. It sounded like the boy pulled or shoved on her while chewing a bone. No the boy should not have been rough but the dog should have retreated with the bone instead of snarled. That would make me nervous as you seem to be as well. Maybe no more chews around strange kids? I am sorry this happened it has always been my worst fear when we have other kids over. I stress the rules and keep a close eye, but some kids have less restraint than others. My dogs just hightail it upstairs to my room when their annoyed, but it's those what ifs that scare me I am a little sensitive to this topic since my neighbors dog just mauled our other neighbors dog for no reason and without provocation. *Aggression is just not normal to me at all*


It wasn't aggression. She was reacting because she got scared or possibly hurt. It probably happened so fast that she thought it was an attack and reacted with a bite.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Whether it's fear based aggression or food aggression- it's an aggressive response. A passive response would be walking/running to another room or a yelp- not an immediate bite/nip IMO. I don't think this dog is mean or aggressive- just reacted aggressively when startled if that makes sense. That response would have me leery of having children over is my point other than the kids whom the dog grew up with. If the parents were not laid back that is an action that around here could have a dog put down unfairly. The OP is lucky the parents were cool, but the next time....you never know


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

Zoeys mom said:


> Children with no dog manners are the worst and I sympathize believe me. I didn't think you were condoning the bite or rough play- I was just shocked most seem to blame the child more so than the dog. It sounded like the boy pulled or shoved on her while chewing a bone. No the boy should not have been rough but the dog should have retreated with the bone instead of snarled. That would make me nervous as you seem to be as well. Maybe no more chews around strange kids? I am sorry this happened it has always been my worst fear when we have other kids over. I stress the rules and keep a close eye, but some kids have less restraint than others. My dogs just hightail it upstairs to my room when their annoyed, but it's those what ifs that scare me I am a little sensitive to this topic since my neighbors dog just mauled our other neighbors dog for no reason and without provocation. Aggression is just not normal to me at all


 
She usually leaves and goes to another location when a child walks into the room if she is chewing a toy.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Don't know that any of us think what happened was ok.

Just that it would be normal for many of our dogs.

They are dogs. And can be surprised. Can be startled and react before they figure out what's going on. The mere fact there was only a bruising and no further damage shows what a good dog this is because much more damage could have occured from the same incident and another dog. 

Best thing is to realize there may be a problem in the future unless something changes. And this is an easy fix by monitoring the dog in the future and setting up a calmer environment away from the kids.


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

Thanks ladies. Just so you all know, My 1 year old daughter walked by her and stepped on her foot. No reaction. She just got up and moved. So I dont think he is telling me the whole truth. But when his dad came and picked him up, Danny said that Ben was just bit by their schnauzer the other day because he wouldnt leave him alone and kept provoking it. His dad said obviously he hasnt learned his lesson and scolded him about not being appropriate around the dog and told him to leave the dogs alone from now on until he can show he can follow the rules. So I am not worried about Arwen. Im gonna keep doing what Ive been doing and just keeping her away when he is over. If Arwen was going to hurt him at all, she would have. Thanks for all you input. I will continue to be careful.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Taylor said:


> His dad said obviously he hasnt learned his lesson and scolded him about not being appropriate around the dog and told him to leave the dogs alone from now on until he can show he can follow the rules. So I am not worried about Arwen.* Im gonna keep doing what Ive been doing and just keeping her away when he is over. If Arwen was going to hurt him at all, she would have*. Thanks for all you input. I will continue to be careful.


:thumbup:


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What's being described here is not a dog bite. If it were a bite there would be significant blood and the child would be more than "stunned." I wish people would quit thinking that this is a bite. 
This is normal behavior when startled - in fact it is inhibitted behavior when startled.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I dont' think anyone thinks it's "ok",,but stuff happens, and they are DOGS..If she wanted to, she could have really done some damage but obviously she didnt.

The kids dad sounds like a GOOD One,! Good for him for understanding kids shouldn't provoke/tease dogs! 

Arwen sounds like she's great with the kids and very tolerant.


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

[
*The kids dad sounds like a GOOD One,! Good for him for understanding kids shouldn't provoke/tease dogs! *

He is a good guy and he has known Arwen since she was a pup. 

*Arwen sounds like she's great with the kids and very tolerant*.
I am very lucky. She is an AMAZING girl and I was extremely heartbroken the other night even though I know things were provoked and it could have been worse. I just needed some reassurance. Shes a great girl for sure!


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

If its any comfort if you startle me, my first reaction is to come up with my fist...not necessarily hitting, but the fist is up

hit me by accident with something..I dont see it coming I will react that way.
I have been like that for ages.

It is my startle response..fight or flight.
If the dog was minding her own business and some kid grabbed at her and she didnt even realize th kid was there. i dont blame her for nailing the kid. The other posters are right. she showed bite inhibition or the kid would be in the hospital now getting stitches


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Taylor said:


> Thanks ladies. Just so you all know, My 1 year old daughter walked by her and stepped on her foot. No reaction. She just got up and moved. So I dont think he is telling me the whole truth. But when his dad came and picked him up, Danny said that Ben was just bit by their schnauzer the other day because he wouldnt leave him alone and kept provoking it. His dad said obviously he hasnt learned his lesson and scolded him about not being appropriate around the dog and told him to leave the dogs alone from now on until he can show he can follow the rules. So I am not worried about Arwen. Im gonna keep doing what Ive been doing and just keeping her away when he is over. If Arwen was going to hurt him at all, she would have. Thanks for all you input. I will continue to be careful.


I agree that the dog should not have reacted that way BUT it is an entirely normal reaction for a dog who was obviously very startled by the child. AND the bite was very inhibited which was very good.

Perhaps it was even enough to help teach the child that he should not treat the dog that way!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Not a reaction I would like out of the dog, but a completely understandable one. 

The fact that she really didn't use her teeth, nor did she continue to bite, shows she has good self-control at least. 

Has she been protective of her food before, if that was a trigger?


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> Not a reaction I would like out of the dog, but a completely understandable one.
> 
> The fact that she really didn't use her teeth, nor did she continue to bite, shows she has good self-control at least.
> 
> Has she been protective of her food before, if that was a trigger?


No, not really. She usually just walks away from her bowl if I or one of the kids walks by. Even when other dogs are around, I feed them seperate. I usually feed her when she can eat in peace lol. She will give me her toys, bones etc. i think he did something and hes not totally telling me the truth. I think he pushed on her or hurt her. He was bit by his own dog earlier in the week because he was teasing him. I found that out after this.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I was bit on the hand when I was small because despite what my parents had told me (not to ever run up to a dog and never to disturb a dog when he is eating, drinking, or sleeping) I ran up to Ginger (our neighbor's elderly cocker spaniel) who was sleeping - like this boy did - from behind and reached out to pet him - of course, he woke up - startled and bit me. To our neighbor's relief, my mother promptly told me that it was my fault and I was wrong to have run up to the dog. That was the first and last time - I learned my lesson- but that's how some kids are. There is nothing wrong with your dog.


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

thanks for ALL the replies. She is a great girl and I am very proud of her!!!!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

just another opinion, have any of you been hit by the dogs nose, if she spun around she could have hit him and caused a bruise with her mouth closed, I've had several bruises from accidental bangs when they suddenly lift their heads... also the baring of the teeth may have been trying to appease you because you were alarmed, it may have been her way of saying sorry. Does this dog smile using her teeth? I prefer giving the benefit of the doubt


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