# Let the dogs fight, even bite, even a puncture wound.



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

So someone told me, that they read from a trainer called Jamie Shaw, to let dogs fight to the point of biting and even letting a puncture wound. If it 
becomes more than that than its too much.

Thoughts?

What do you think is appropriate?

Do you think food, space, people guarding is appropriate from dog to dog?


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

depends on f you have deep pockets for a trip to the ER vets, my 2 females have to be kept separated, with these 2 its a fight to the death


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

VTGirlT said:


> So someone told me, that they read from a trainer called Jamie Shaw, to let dogs fight to the point of biting and even letting a puncture wound. If it
> becomes more than that than its too much.
> 
> Thoughts?
> ...


I don't think any kind of guarding is appropriate. I have 6 dogs and no fights. If they look at one the wrong way they are removed. I'm not getting in the middle if a fight and I certainly don't want any of mine getting hurt. Who would want their dogs to get hurt?


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I dont agree with it.
And told the person it sounds like they are trying to make it easier for themselves, by finding this one source that says this.. That way she doesn't have to train her dog.
So basically her dog lunging, biting, growling at my dog because she is saying hi nicely, to her owner is apparently okay. And it's okay that she gets aggressive when she is grumpy, or when she guards the couch or under the table, etc.
She bit a dog in the face pretty bad for going near her food. She made Zelda bleed before.
Apparently by saying this, i am assuming i know everything lol Clearly, since i go to classes and see trainers- i know everything im not going out of my way for help or anything.

I told her im going to use compressed air (pet corrector or stop that) if she gets aggressive with my dog since i told her i dont think its okay, and that im going to have to do something about it. (a while ago) she said "Dont put your hands on my dog!" *sigh* Unfortunately, i dont know if iw ant to, because her dog is_ very_ scared of that noise.. But my dog wont have much of a life if i keep her separated. Her dog comes over all the time,with or without her- and there is nothing i can do about that. I will say, her dog is a lot better when she isn't around. Theres a little unwanted drama for you.. >.>

I mean maybe its true.. I dont know.. I just feel like its a big excuse for her dogs behavior and im the bad guy here.
My dog isnt near perfect, but im not justifying her actions with excuses and not doing anything about it. 

So i asked the question to better understand why people believe that way, if they do.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Why is her dog there? If she shows up, put her in a crate until her owner comes and gets her...if she visits, offer her the crate so there are no confrontations. If you have to, put your own dog in a crate and then tell her that they will have to split the time in a crate while you and the owner visit. 

No way would I allow someone's dog to come into my house and pick on my dog. I have had friends visit and stay over even. The dogs take turns in the crates/bedrooms/kennel runs. Never have I just let a friends dog in and interact at will. It is asking for trouble. Especially with two females, these little spats can escalate over time until one wants to kill the other. Been there. Am super careful and do not take chances at all now.

Lee


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am with Lee on this. How is you have no say in another dog being at your house? Don't let your dog be bullied, put Zeeva in a crate, or crate the other dog. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My dad likes to bring his dog over, a 7 yr pit bull mix rescued from the shelter. He is a good dog but he is not good with toys. If he gets a toy we can't get if from him and he will guard it(with dogs not people, he just doesn't let go for us) he has a grip like no other dog I have ever met. I'm ok with him with all my dogs except Midnite. I might be over reacting but something about the two I don't trust. I have tried to make my dad and his dog happy. I have a covered 10x20 run that he goes in, but of course he don't like being all the way across the yard, so my dad feels bad and wants him out. I have put Midnite in the house to allow that but this is Midnites house and I feel bad. It was really rough on Christmas. I finally put his dog in a crate with a bone, my dad didn't want him in a crate, but what he didn't know won't hurt him. In the middle of rotating them, so his dog could go outside we put the GSD's in the bathroom. The next thing I know all of them are together, someone had to use the bathroom and let them out. I remained calm and grabbed Midnite and it was ok. It's just a lot of stress. The last BBQ I told my dad to leave his dog home. I have no problem with someone bringing their dog over, but my dogs come first. If I see a safety issue or problems starting I have no problem removing the visiting dog. Luckily my whole family are experienced in breaking up fights and none of us want to see a fight happen.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I know i dont like it either..
Her dog is there cause she is my older sister, who lives in a room somewhere else. I pay rent at my parents house to save on money. She brings her dog over here for my little sister to watch, or for any of us to watch until she can get her later. Or when my older sister house sits, like this weekend and she cant bring her dog, she leaves her dog with my little sister, who is a away so im watching her. And i can tell you she does a lot better without my sister around. 
And she came to visit me while i was at work watching the boarding dogs, i brought her dog with me. And she came to visit. And it's so funny how she thinks her dog is perfect, as she told me today when describing the pitbull and husky she is housesitting with, the husky is SUPER naughty.. But the pitty is really amazing and her problems with the pitty were that she sits on your stomach and wiggles in the bed.. And im thinking.. are you serious.. So that makes your dog perfect?! 
As she is growling at other dogs, (which is fine for warnings) but then sister starts by baby talking her and asking her to jump up on her and rewards her for that behavior and than her dog starts lunging at the other dogs coming near her or my sister, etc.. She walks all over my sister- and she doesnt care, doesnt thin its a problem, and thinks its cute.
She is always pointing out the moments when she gets along well with other dogs. And how she does will with this type of or this type of dog. And how its just Zelda she has problems with.. And than i start thinking of all the dogs she got into fights with and i know its not true.. 
So clearly i cant change my sister or her dog. And i already have to put Zelda in a crate all day while im at work.. That would be so unfair to make her go back in her crate after being in it all day.. 
I would move out but i dont have the money currently..
And Zelda is careful of my sisters dog, she goes through boxes and the long more uncomfortable route to stay away from her dog. So its not like Zelda is being dumb about it. She use to try and play with her, but she knows that she doesnt play anymore she just gets becomes aggressive so she rarely asks her to play anymore. :crazy:
I already have crazy Zelda problems to deal with and now i have to deal with my sisters perfect dog all the time lately. It's getting to be a bit much, and it just sets me off when she makes excuses for the behavior and thinks its fine, or that Zelda is the problem.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

_Allowing _puncture wounds?! That's nuts. 

Puncture wounds can be slow to heal. A puncture wound can easily get infected, need to be drained. I hope that trainer is paying his client's vet bills!

And by the way, once you _allow_ a fight escalate to puncture wounds, and then decide "oops, it's becoming 'too much,'" how exactly is this guy recommending that clients stop it to keep it from going further? By that point, the dogs are fully engaged and one or both are drawing blood. That fight will be very dangerous to break up. The risk of a human getting caught in a redirected bite is sky-high at that moment. No way!!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Magwart said:


> _Allowing _puncture wounds?! That's nuts.
> 
> Puncture wounds can be slow to heal. A puncture wound can easily get infected, need to be drained. I hope that trainer is paying his client's vet bills!
> 
> And by the way, once you _allow_ a fight escalate to puncture wounds, and then decide "oops, it's becoming 'too much,'" how exactly is this guy recommending that clients stop it to keep it from going further? By that point, the dogs are fully engaged and one or both are drawing blood. That fight will be very dangerous to break up. The risk of a human getting caught in a redirected bite is sky-high at that moment. No way!!!


Not to mention how fast it can escalate.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol, OP. Look what I found:
http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/canine-fight-club/Content?oid=2127581
I totally disagree with this approach, but even if someone wants to blindly follow Jaime Shaw, then they'd have the dogs muzzled to duke it out - not inflicting puncture wounds! Geez...

When I was in a similar situation, I told my family members that they could either leash their dogs to control them, or allow them to _attempt_ to attack my pup - in which case I was going to intervene. You can't tell someone to keep their hands off your dog while you allow your dog to beat up on another dog! That's not going to happen. Especially with Zelda, who really needs to know that you can be trusted to protect her. Good luck with this situation, what a nightmare.


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## Maxil (Jun 1, 2014)

I let Vicky fight with many dogs, golden retrivers, rotweillers, pit bulls and other German shepherd, she never got hurt except by the golden retriever he had very sharp teeth and she had a small bite mark above her eyes.

Someone also told me that dog fights make your dogs more brave, but if you feel they started backing out take her away asap else she will turn into a coward, but Vicky always turns to be the strongest of all the dogs she fought with B)


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

Maxil said:


> I let Vicky fight with many dogs, golden retrivers, rotweillers, pit bulls and other German shepherd, she never got hurt except by the golden retriever he had very sharp teeth and she had a small bite mark above her eyes.
> 
> Someone also told me that dog fights make your dogs more brave, but if you feel they started backing out take her away asap else she will turn into a coward, but Vicky always turns to be the strongest of all the dogs she fought with B)


I would say this is another example of cultural differences. I have never heard of letting dogs fight be a good thing.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yup. I go out of my way to prevent my dogs from fighting. Of course, I have the bad memories of previous random bites that I couldn't prevent, which included wounds that needed stitches and/or antibiotics. Nope, not for me.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Dog fights are never pretty and IMO the owners fault 99.9% of the time, not all dogs get along just like all humans get along. Some will be fine just posturing and growling or the occasional nip, others will go from 0 to 100 in 0.5 seconds

Removing and protecting your dog actually shows it that YOU are the biggest and baddest thing around and they don't need to posture or react – you’ll take care of it. Allowing the dog to bite or harass other dogs just asks for punishment and in the end it's the DOG that nursing the bloody wounds or paying with its life, not the owners sadly.

Personally I watch Delgado like a hawk; he's pushy and doesn't always listen or respond to the other dog's signals. With aggressive dogs he's going to escalate the fight and not back down if I don’t intervene. With timid or shy dogs if they cower he's going to be a jerk and push them around most of the time. It's a game to him. 

So I watch him and he gets corrected or removed if he crosses the line. He learned at a very early age what is acceptable and what is not but that doesn't mean that silly puppy brain doesn't pop up and he needs a reminder. 

Since your sister is doing nothing to help I would just completely separate for the time she's over. Or have your dog leashed and block the other dog from approaching using your body. If she persists and it works on the dog use a spray bottle of water to correct the dog. It's water - harmless yet effective in some cases and if your sister protests then tell her to keep her dog away from yours. You're actively keeping your dog under control; tell her to do the same.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Magwart said:


> And by the way, once you _allow_ a fight escalate to puncture wounds, and then decide "oops, it's becoming 'too much,'" how exactly is this guy recommending that clients stop it to keep it from going further? By that point, the dogs are fully engaged and one or both are drawing blood. That fight will be very dangerous to break up. The risk of a human getting caught in a redirected bite is sky-high at that moment. No way!!!





llombardo said:


> Not to mention how fast it can escalate.


Never heard of that "trainer", but what a dumb idea. Totally agree with Magwart and llombardo!!! It's a pretty big assumption that once a dog bites another dog everything is going to just magically stop right there. I think it's FAR more likely to be the beginning of a fight, possibly a major one. Then you've got two injured dogs (who now probably hate each other's guts and can never be trusted together again), and maybe some injured humans too, from trying to break it up. Just no.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Maxil said:


> I let Vicky fight with many dogs, golden retrivers, rotweillers, pit bulls and other German shepherd, she never got hurt except by the golden retriever he had very sharp teeth and she had a small bite mark above her eyes.
> 
> Someone also told me that dog fights make your dogs more brave, but if you feel they started backing out take her away asap else she will turn into a coward, but Vicky always turns to be the strongest of all the dogs she fought with B)



Actually FIGHT, or just playing rough? Dog fights do not make dogs more brave, the person who told you that is wrong. In fact, the opposite can happen, especially with a puppy. 

If you don't keep her safe from other dogs attacking and biting her she may learn defend herself, but that doesn't mean she's becoming brave. It could actually make her fearful of other dogs.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Magwart said:


> _Allowing _puncture wounds?! That's nuts.
> *
> Puncture wounds can be slow to heal. A puncture wound can easily get infected*, need to be drained. I hope that trainer is paying his client's vet bills!
> 
> And by the way, once you _allow_ a fight escalate to puncture wounds, and then decide "oops, it's becoming 'too much,'" how exactly is this guy recommending that clients stop it to keep it from going further? By that point, the dogs are fully engaged and one or both are drawing blood. *T**hat fight will be very dangerous to break up. * The risk of a human getting caught in a redirected bite is sky-high at that moment. No way!!!


I would break it up. Even if it meant i got redirected at. I'm pretty good at avoiding being bit.. As i do it at work.. Usually i can catch it before it escalates and say EH! and stomp my foot and they will stop. Actually just the other day i had to pull off a dog who gave my sisters dog a puncture wound. She was crazy. And my sister was holding her dog so she couldn't hurt the other dog. So i pulled chloe off her griff. And it was a pretty bad puncture wound. She took to Vet and decided to let it heal on its own.. which it took a week to scab over, but it looks good now. 
So i actually mentioned this incident to her when she was describing it all to me. And she said that, that fight would have escalated. I'm thinking.. what fight wouldn't escalate if another dog bite another one? Most dogs gets pissed. Zelda gets pissed if Griff attacks her for no reason, like walking by. She starts to snarl at her. And i dont blame her, so than i usually distract her with something else. It's a good thing Zelda is mainly play.. She is actually quite the submissive one i find when i take her to doggy day care.. Unless its the little dogs- and than i use the OFF command for that now, i use to do time outs. And she is so much better and leave them alone. 
Usually what my sister does when her dog gets snappy, lunging, bitey, growling, controlling space- is hold onto her collar, or start to pet her, and give her attention (i'm guessing in attempt to redirect to focus on her) but i dont think it works.. Or what she will say is, "better take a hint Zelda!" or "Go away Zelda!" I just find it pretty sad, Zelda likes the family, and Loooves my sister a lot.. and she pretty much ignores her or pushes her away. But thats probably just my own human emotion. Sometimes i wonder if Griff goes after Zelda because my sister kind of disconnects from Zelda on top of Griff's already guarding problems? I dont know.. I'm confused as much as she is- but she isn't doing anything about it. 



llombardo said:


> Not to mention how fast it can escalate.


Yup they use to play more than fight. Now they almost never play, and when they do it escalates really quick. Bad relationship with those two 



Blanketback said:


> Lol, OP. Look what I found:
> Canine Fight Club | Essay | Seven Days | Vermont's Independent Voice
> I totally disagree with this approach, but even if someone wants to blindly follow Jaime Shaw, then they'd have the dogs muzzled to duke it out - not inflicting puncture wounds! Geez...
> 
> When I was in a similar situation, I told my family members that they could either* leash their dogs to control them*, or allow them to _attempt_ to attack my pup - in which case I was going to intervene. *You can't tell someone to keep their hands off your dog while you allow your dog to beat up on another dog! That's not going to happen. Especially with Zelda, who really needs to know that you can be trusted to protect her. *Good luck with this situation, what a nightmare.


Ugh read the whole thing. I wonder if the book says to muzzle them? If it does, she forgot to mention that. lol If she wants to muzzle Griff all day be my guest and they can fight out than.. 
I think Jamie Shaw is a great trainer, in fact i was debating on her or another trainer at first, and went with the other trainer. But no trainer is perfect. I always find something in a trainer i disagree with.. and it doesn't make them a bad trainer. I just, like you said, dont like to follow blindly. 

I told her that before that she needs to keep her on a leash if she comes over here. She got very mad- and she becomes irrational, i guess i do that too when im mad. But i should tell her exactly what you said, because thats how i feel, i will not let another dog hurt my dog if i can help it. It's why i carry both compressed air, and if that doesn't work to stop a fight, pepper spray with me.. Thanks for the good luck! I feel bad for Zelda, its a pretty bad situation for a dog like her to live right now! Where is my ship of money so i can move out? lol 



*And i was wondering if you guys had an idea why dogs will for instance, Griff is upset that her mom left, she is looking out the window, and whining, Zelda comes from behind and she goes at her, and looks back at the window. It's like redirection of aggression? Why do they do that? And why do they choose whom they choose? I know some dogs will do this to humans even.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Shade said:


> Dog fights are never pretty and IMO the owners fault 99.9% of the time, not all dogs get along just like all humans get along. Some will be fine just posturing and growling or the occasional nip, others will go from 0 to 100 in 0.5 seconds
> 
> Removing and protecting your dog actually shows it that YOU are the biggest and baddest thing around and they don't need to posture or react – you’ll take care of it. Allowing the dog to bite or harass other dogs just asks for punishment and in the end it's the DOG that nursing the bloody wounds or paying with its life, not the owners sadly.
> 
> ...


I guess i could take on the leash time as opportunity to really do some major training with Zelda. Her dog is actually scared of the spray bottle. I used it on Zelda before it was basically an OFF like gesture from me, but it didnt work. But her dog will cower away when i take it out. (poor Griff!) With the compressed air, her dog will start to shake and become really nervous.. So i guess the spray bottle would be nicer on Griff. I just dont want to make her scared, but if it means preventing a fight and what not it would be better.



Cassidy's Mom said:


> Never heard of that "trainer", but what a dumb idea. Totally agree with Magwart and llombardo!!! It's a pretty big assumption that once a dog bites another dog everything is going to just magically stop right there. I think it's FAR more likely to be the beginning of a fight, possibly a major one. Then you've got two injured dogs (who now probably hate each other's guts and can never be trusted together again), and maybe some injured humans too, from trying to break it up. Just no.


I agree, personally, I think most dogs would not end there, that they would get really worked up from the physical bite, and go at the other dog more than if they didnt.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They say (who _they_ is I really don't know), but to let dogs work it out. But bitches never. Dogs will posture and maybe have a scrap, and one will be on top, and one will be on the bottom, and if we don't interfere with their hierarchy, then it is likely that there will be no more trouble.

That's with dogs living together. Having an outside dog come over and push his weight around is a bit much.

Because I have girls, and mostly girls, I do not go with this advice, because girls are not going to just determine who is king of the mountain. The moment there is an opportunity, a bitch who has won her level by fighting is likely to be overthrown and it will be bloody.

I guess I just don't want to deal with bloody battles. I choose which bitches or dogs that I am willing to let have access to each other by their general temperament and behavior, and the moment I think something's up, it's over, right then. When I had Odie, Lassie and Moofie at the vet, Lassie started to give Moof some crap, and I must have said something just right because the vet tech said that was the first time she ever heard me being harsh with a dog. And, there was no more trouble whatsoever the entire visit.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Then you've got two injured dogs (who now probably hate each other's guts and can never be trusted together again), and maybe some injured humans too, from trying to break it up. Just no.


To make things even worse: if there's a redirected bite at a human breaking up the fight, and that results in a bite wound requiring stitches, antibiotics, or other medical care, many locales require the treating physician to report ANY dog bite to animal control. That automatically triggers an investigation and proceeding. 

That owner may be facing a hearing to determine whether the dog should be deemed "dangerous" (and either euthanized or required to wear a muzzle for life)--and he'll have to explain to animal control why he "let" dogs fight. The bite may also may trigger a 10-day rabies quarantine -- if the rabies vaccination is out of date, some locales mandate euthanasia to send the severed head to a lab for necropsy (others allow a quarantine at the animal control center, or a vet's office, at your expense). In addition to the vet bills and doctor bills, now there will probably be lawyer bills.

Even if the ACO understands how redirection happens when fights are broken up, there will likely be a record of the bite made. Now, that person owns a dog with a bite history--for a stupid, stupid reason.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Maxil said:


> I let Vicky fight with many dogs, golden retrivers, rotweillers, pit bulls and other German shepherd, she never got hurt except by the golden retriever he had very sharp teeth and she had a small bite mark above her eyes.
> 
> Someone also told me that dog fights make your dogs more brave, but if you feel they started backing out take her away asap else she will turn into a coward, but Vicky always turns to be the strongest of all the dogs she fought with B)


This is a great way to end up with a dog-aggressive dog, and/or a severely injured dog.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*I'm the Big Dog*

Although I have but one GSD male now, I've had more than one dog at a time in the past and after I became and adult.

Here's the rule I abide by. I DETERMINE THE PACK HIERARCHY AND THE DOMINANCE SCALE BEGINS AND ENDS WITH ME. Everyone else just needs to get along without trouble.

Any dog that displays any level of aggression towards another is going to have to deal with me immediately, period. And, all it takes is dropping of the ears or a scowl or a low growl and it's game on. You get to be roughed up, chased around and then sent to the crate until your bladder is about to burst plus a day of being leashed and, if you're not nice, crate confinement until you get your nice face back on.

We handle them just like we do our kids. If you have a fight between yourselves, who knows, you might win and you might lose. But you're definitely going to have another fight with me when I see it or learn of it that you can't possibly win. So, work out your differences peaceably.

I ain't no fight coordinator.

Worked for me for many years.

LF


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Longfisher. Beautiful MO. Especially considering that 5 mins later the dogs forgot all about it and are wondering why they're locked up, leashed up and exploding from piss. 

But as long as you feel big and bad all is well


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Why do dogs ever have to interact with other dogs outside their 'pack'? Is it worth the random occurrence of something bad happening? The only time mine is off leash is when he is in his kennel. If we're out in public and dog off leash approaches I down him behind me and I'll kick the other dog away. I'd much rather take a bite to my leg before my dog has to deal with it. 

An anecdote:
I was at the beach with leash laws walking. Another gsd approaches and I scare him away. The owner comes up and is confused why I won't let them 'play' together. I explain that the dogs don't know each other and it's not worth the risk. He responds, "Oh my dog would never hurt another, he's a sweetheart." Me, "That's good, bye.". I carry on and return back down the beach to see his gsd in the surf with a black lab, both bloody. The owner is soaking wet trying to separate them as the tide comes in. 

To think you could always and reliably anticipate a dog's actions is ridiculous.


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## Maxil (Jun 1, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Actually FIGHT, or just playing rough? Dog fights do not make dogs more brave, the person who told you that is wrong. In fact, the opposite can happen, especially with a puppy.
> 
> If you don't keep her safe from other dogs attacking and biting her she may learn defend herself, but that doesn't mean she's becoming brave. It could actually make her fearful of other dogs.


Playing of course both dogs were shaking there tails , and she never plays with an older dog and the other dig is always a female, she once was trying to socialize with a husky male that is 5 months and he tried to 'hump' her so I never allow her to play with males.
Idk if it makes them brave or not but it makes them more self confident >.>


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Amazing how ready people are to kick other people's dogs. 
Though most that say that are just talking. Still disturbing. And yeah, I know, people should control their dogs. Still, it's not the dog's fault. Kick the owner instead. Or just calm down. It will be ok.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Amazing how ready people are to kick other people's dogs.
> Though most that say that are just talking. Still disturbing. And yeah, I know, people should control their dogs. Still, it's not the dog's fault. Kick the owner instead. Or just calm down. It will be ok.


Let me rephrase. "I push them away with my foot". I'm simply protecting my dog, and potentially theirs. Suggesting to kick the owner is both absurd and unrealistic.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

That sounds much better. I agree with not letting your dog play with dogs you don't know but kicking any dog that comes running is overboard.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sagan said:


> Why do dogs ever have to interact with other dogs outside their 'pack'? Is it worth the random occurrence of something bad happening? The only time mine is off leash is when he is in his kennel. If we're out in public and dog off leash approaches I down him behind me and I'll kick the other dog away. I'd much rather take a bite to my leg before my dog has to deal with it.


I totally agree with you. My dogs are not brought out in society to be the play things of other folk's dogs. My dogs are on a leash. If the other person can't control their dog, I'll control it for them. Period. If it's a kick, it's a kick. I'm not going to take one single little bitty chance that that other dog doesn't have some illness, or that it might cause injury to my dog. 

My job is to protect my dog(s). That is exactly what I do. My dogs are not dog reactive. Could be, I've never given them reason to be.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

VTGirlT said:


> I told her that before that she needs to keep her on a leash if she comes over here. She got very mad- and she becomes irrational, i guess i do that too when im mad. But i should tell her exactly what you said, because thats how i feel, i will not let another dog hurt my dog if i can help it. It's why i carry both compressed air, and if that doesn't work to stop a fight, pepper spray with me.. Thanks for the good luck! I feel bad for Zelda, its a pretty bad situation for a dog like her to live right now! Where is my ship of money so i can move out? lol


Where's my ship of money, too?! Is it Money Ship Day yet?! Hurry up!! LOL!!

I know how hard it is sometimes, dealing with sisters. Sometimes it's impossible, lol. Especially if you're both being irrational. But at least you can see this, so you can try to stop it - even if it means just walking away and avoiding the bs. If it makes you feel better, when I was worried about my dog getting attacked, I brought a whip with me. LOL! I said my dog wasn't getting attacked...however that happens...but when I pulled the other dog off my pup the first time, I ended up with a bloody finger. I can't be risking injury just to keep someone else's dog controlled, when they're in denial about their dog's DA. The threat of the whip turned the owner from apathetic to concerned, in under a second, lol. Magic! Now the dogs are fine together, but I also had to make sure my dog wasn't pestering the other dog too. 

You might just be better off keeping Zelda totally apart from Griff, if this is how it ends up every time. I also don't allow people to say mean things to my dog either, like "Get away" or anything. I'd rather just remove him than have him deal with that kind of negativity.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> So someone told me, that they read from a trainer called Jamie Shaw, to let dogs fight to the point of biting and even letting a puncture wound. If it becomes more than that than its too much.
> 
> Thoughts?


 That's just stupid, silly.. And something that I would never let my dogs do, nor would I advocate it for anyone else..


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