# I'm At a Crossroad.



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm at a crossroad with Cruz. I've had him since he was 8 weeks. We have attended a couple obedience classes and he knows the stuff. The problem I have ran into with him and I have been living with and trying to work out of him is his lack of attention to me. He was great until he hit about 8 to 9 months. He did not jump on people, counter surf, good around other dogs and people. He was very obedient before that 8 to 9 month corner. After that he just went nuts. It's like there is no connection there at times. He is now 14 months and in the neighborhood of 90 lbs. He wants to try to do things on his terms at times and that's when we clash. I still take command of those situations, but I'm waiting for him to turn the next corner and it seemed like he started to a little recently but still has severe aggressive reactions to certain dogs in the neighborhood when on walks. That last sentence is where things took a turn for the worse last weekend. I have been trying to work with him on walking by these dogs which are in their yards without him trying to drag me up to the fence. I've tried walking fast past these houses, turn around's and heeling command, giving more space between him and the other dogs, treats stuffed in the face, taking him by the collar and walking him past those yards with his toes barely touching the ground to no avail. He's the same in the pet store with other dogs and it's embarrassing. He is very vocal through all this also which gives people the impression he is mean but it's just not the case in most cases. The dogs he has been able to approach, he seems to treat them as they treat him. But this dog got me off balanced this weekend going for a fence with dogs and it put me flat on my side on the ground and I'm 230 lbs.! I just can't have this. It's to the point where I used to love to walk him but it's grown into something I no longer look forward to anymore. 

I have been proactive about training him with positive reinforcement avoiding e-collars and prongs. I have a coworker who has had his lab trained by a regional trainer and turned out great but they utilize an e-collar. They do in home training, but I'm torn between trying to return to this last trainer who is dead set against prongs and e-collars for one more shot or this new trainer that uses e-collars but gets results much quicker. I want what's fair and safe for the dog in the end.

I know I'm putting myself out there. I don't claim to be a whiz at dog training. I'm not. I do what I'm taught to do by the trainer and then hit a wall as this dog is not stupid, he may be smarter than me. I just have a lack of experience in what to do if what I'm taught does not work. It may sound crazy, but I think he realizes this. It's like he stonewalls me, and then implies "now what you gonna do?" Which is usually when I grab the collar and walk him. The reactions are the primary concerns at this point because they are so physical. He's one of the strongest GSD's I've owned. He's also one of the smartest. He is my fifth one and is a challenge. 

So I guess I'm looking for a discussion and opinions on which road would be the wisest to take at this point. The e-collar still kind of scares me a bit. I've done some research and study on them and they can be very effective if used properly and not abused. The abuse I'm not afraid of, but the use of properly I am as he is so reactive when it comes to physical contact. He is a dog that you can easily drive higher through physical contact. The harder you go the harder he goes and the higher he gets. His only off switch is the kennel. This is my concern with an e-collar. 

So, what are some opinions, comments etc.? Giving up on him is not going to happen. I'll find a way, and he is still young. I still work with him and he has responded well to tighter rules in the home. The walking thing is dangerous and getting old though and I'm out of ideas.


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

No concrete solid advice except get to a trainer ASAP.. which you know.. I will say too that there is nothing wrong with prongs or e-collars IF USED PROPERLY.. meaning you thoroughly researched them or you were trained by a good trainer on how to use them. I'm not an expert on those so I don't know if they would work with a reactive dog, but that's why I'd go to a trainer. I will also say that Titan did used to drag me to things of his desire when he thought necessary.. and I started using a prong and it's made a night and day difference. Though these are probably very different situations.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have nothing against positive training, but I do believe in doing what works for a particular dog.

Get a prong collar, try it, they aren't that expensive (cheaper than e collars),,If you use it properly I'm betting you'll see results in his pulling you around, after about 2-3 self corrections..Just my opinion


----------



## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

First I gotta say good for you for putting your all into this. My guy is far from a year off but I've seen several posts here about dogs forgetting their training around the 1 year mark. your advantage is that you are 200+ lbs. know that there are people out there around 100lbs who have a GS. I would definitely seek out trainers and if they advise an e collar or prong collar go for it. it sounds like your GS goes crazy and, like most of us, you aren't going to beat him so he gets more out of hand and it becomes an unhealthy relationship for both of you. definitely wait and see what more experienced members advise but don't be against slightly 'harsher' methods of control. after all it does really sound like it'll hurt you more than the dog


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I have nothing against positive training, but I do believe in doing what works for a particular dog.
> 
> Get a prong collar, try it, they aren't that expensive (cheaper than e collars),,If you use it properly I'm betting you'll see results in his pulling you around, after about 2-3 self corrections..Just my opinion


 I agree with this also. My dog is pretty well trained now but my daughter has a one sided weakness and she still uses the prong - just in case! Our dog is almost 4, once she got past the adolescent stage we mostly stopped the prong, this stage wont' last forever.

Maybe you can find some training classes that incorporate some fun in them, like agility so your dog can burn up some energy. There were also certain times I really benefited from working with a trainer as team, one on one or small group classes. This worked well for down stays and recalls.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Hey, thanks for the replies everyone. I really do appreciate all I can get. I love this dog, I feel the necessary connections are there for a close relationship. I just have to figure out the best manner of breaking through that shell that keeps him from totally buying in to what I'm trying to teach him. 

Trainers, and let me explain the last month. We were set up for a third session with this particular trainer. He has two GSD working dogs and is very astute on the in's and out's of this breed. A definite gold nugget in the pile of rocks as trainers go. Most of what he has taught me to do in situations has worked. But the third session never happened. Work related hours prevented me from attending. No excuses though. That was just the situation. We all suffered from it. He, meaning the dog, behaviors regressed or progressed depending on if your the dog or us, but we didn't have the support of the trainer to change with the dogs behaviors. 

After the coworkers experience with his trainer, coupled with the recent behaviors from the dog, got me to second guessing my situation and what would be in the best interest of the dog as well as us. A more quicker but uncertain outcome with this new trainer and method or a more drawn out positive training method with our current trainer? Our current trainer, is dead set against other methods. Our current trainer is also the one we would realize our goal with also, which is SAR training. He more or less evaluated Cruz through our month long class and he himself brought up scent detection training and SAR. I asked about SCH. and he flat out said no way. He would be better with scent work.

So that's where I'm at. I read all the replies and they are all good ones and seem to be great advice. Again I appreciate all the feedback and I'm taking it all in.


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> Hey, thanks for the replies everyone. I really do appreciate all I can get. I love this dog, I feel the necessary connections are there for a close relationship. I just have to figure out the best manner of breaking through that shell that keeps him from totally buying in to what I'm trying to teach him.
> 
> Trainers, and let me explain the last month. We were set up for a third session with this particular trainer. He has two GSD working dogs and is very astute on the in's and out's of this breed. A definite gold nugget in the pile of rocks as trainers go. Most of what he has taught me to do in situations has worked. But the third session never happened. Work related hours prevented me from attending. No excuses though. That was just the situation. We all suffered from it. He, meaning the dog, behaviors regressed or progressed depending on if your the dog or us, but we didn't have the support of the trainer to change with the dogs behaviors.
> 
> ...


Just for the SAR portion... just know it's not necessary for your dog to like other dogs in order to do SAR work. It is only necessary that he listen to you 100% ALSO if you want SCH more than SAR don't settle either. You need to be happy with what you choose, but do know that if you do any type of bite work with him, most SAR teams won't allow him on the team IME. 

If the trainer you are with, isn't working for you and you have options to try another, that might be your best option. Personally, I never considered prongs until we had one incident and even then I wasn't sure. We went to an amazing training and we used it the whole first session and I learned how to use it and correct, etc. Now, we never go on lead without it. And I barely ever correct. Titan still gets excited to go for walks, as soon as the prong comes out, he's so amped to go! SO I know now that it's not "abusive" to them unless it's done without proper training.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I don't have an answer. Sorry. But I will say that shy away from trainers who refuse to use any and all available tools. 

So a trainer that refuses to correct a dog, out. A trainer that slaps an ecollar on every dog, out. A good trainer uses what works for each individual dog. At this point your dog is dangerous. Because you have said, you are unable to stay upright when he gets going. You need to take immediate action. 

I don't know either trainer. But a dog with the level of reactivity your dog is showing will never do SAR. sorry. So if that's what you want, you need to get control back. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Remember that GSDs have a "butt-head" adolescent stage they go through. Hormones and the like, finally beginning to be an adult and they sorta just lose it for awhile. Patience and some willpower will see you through. My old guy Banjo was a total nutcase from 1-2.5 years, he was unpredictable, destructive and in general a huge PITA. Once 3 rolled around and he quit the fast growth and began to resemble his stable adult size/weight he was golden. At 5 years old he was bullet-proof and a joy to behold. Intelligent dogs require time to sort themselves. I stayed on top of his obedience, kept a level head and bulled my way through the rough spots and was rewarded with a dog that made me so incredibly happy I stumble for words to describe the feeling. It's there, genetically chances are Cruz will end up being an animal that makes your heart ache with happiness.

TL;DR Hang in there, it's worth the aggravation.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I don't have an answer. Sorry. But I will say that shy away from trainers who refuse to use any and all available tools.
> 
> So a trainer that refuses to correct a dog, out. A trainer that slaps an ecollar on every dog, out. A good trainer uses what works for each individual dog. At this point your dog is dangerous. Because you have said, you are unable to stay upright when he gets going. You need to take immediate action.
> 
> ...


I hear what your saying. The control is what I'm attempting to get back. 

Some of all this behavior is not all on the dog either. I have to take some responsibility for this also. Consistency is probably our biggest fault as of late. It's one of the things we have had to consider also with thinking about SAR. If we haven't got time to do obedience, then SAR or scent work might be hard to attain in the end.

I do agree the dog is dangerous at this point, but not only to everyone else, but also to himself. Via the reason for the thread topic. He got me off balance. He pulled a new move I wasn't ready for. But in the end it doesn't matter how. He did. Believe me. We went right back out and walked right back past where he pulled me down. An we walked past those dogs. He knew I wasn't happy. He heeled all the way around the block. So he knows what he's doing. There is just a lack of respect there from the dog. That's the shell I'm trying to crack. You may be right about alternate methods too.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My insight on working with a very well respected lab trainer was that labs are not GSDs. They tend to respond well to a very heavy handed approach that may not be as suitable for GSDs.

I have to think about other things. You have a lot of good advice in the interim so I just cut mine down.

SAR is something you would do because YOU have a passion for it. Not about the dog and it is more a way of life than anything else that will suck up your vacation time, have you taking off work and making up the hours and emptying your wallet.


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> I hear what your saying. The control is what I'm attempting to get back.
> 
> Some of all this behavior is not all on the dog either. I have to take some responsibility for this also. Consistency is probably our biggest fault as of late. It's one of the things we have had to consider also with thinking about SAR. If we haven't got time to do obedience, then SAR or scent work might be hard to attain in the end.
> 
> I do agree the dog is dangerous at this point, but not only to everyone else, but also to himself. Via the reason for the thread topic. He got me off balance. He pulled a new move I wasn't ready for. But in the end it doesn't matter how. He did. Believe me. We went right back out and walked right back past where he pulled me down. An we walked past those dogs. He knew I wasn't happy. He heeled all the way around the block. So he knows what he's doing. There is just a lack of respect there from the dog. That's the shell I'm trying to crack. You may be right about alternate methods too.


I can say from experience, on the SAR thing and the training thing (workign through this now)... for SAR like Jocoyn said, it si a way of life andyou are correct in that, if you don't have time for OB now, it will be hard to attain scent work and such... it was a hard realization for me to understand that it might not be the best for us (SAR) if my schedule and my attitude aren't exactly where it needs to be for that. It is no kidding like a full time job on it's own. For training.. consistency!!! It's the hardest thing I have had to train myself to do. Whatever you are doing, and you are in the right direction, just be consistent. It's frustrating, but you have to stop switching it up when it gets frustrating... you see results when you push through.  Please keep us posted, we'd love to know your progress with this.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Man I can hear the exasperation in your post. Walking a reactive dog is a chore. 

First I'd get a new trainer because to me a good trainer should have experience using all the tools and knows the pros and cons of each. Simply refusing to use something is ignorance. 

Second you have to realize that if whatever you are doing isn't working then you need to try something new. The dog isn't going to "grow out of it". Imo getting your point across to the dog quickly and clearly is the way to go. The dog has to learn rules and boundaries. Certain gsd's do well with only positive training and other shepherds will laugh at you if all you're trying to do is click and treat. Mold your training to the temperament of your dog.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

jafo220 said:


> We went right back out and walked right back past where he pulled me down. An we walked past those dogs. He knew I wasn't happy. He heeled all the way around the block. So he knows what he's doing.


Whatever you did for that to be a successful walk, you need to repeat it. If it means having blue smoke come out of your ears, swearing like a sailor - so be it, lol. But if you can do it once then you can do it again. I'd also get a decent prong collar to help put an end to this carrying on. If he's good with most dogs, and he's just being a spaz with the few in the neighborhood, then he's going to be perfectly fine with it, IMO.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If your dog is pulling you to the ground, put a prong on the dog before you rip your rotator cuff or break your leg. 

You need to find a method that works for boy you and the dog. It may not be forever.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Work under threshold. Sorry if it has already been mentioned.


----------



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I agree with trying a prong collar. I appreciate that you have tried to avoid them, but if your dog is pulling you over, you need to get his attention. They can be used in a way that makes the message clear to the dog, while not causing them undue stress or discomfort.

Leerburg has a good article on fitting a prong. Please do use a backup collar, like a fur saver with it, as they can occasionally fail and pop open.


----------



## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Have Much the Same Problem*

Yep, my 18 month old Zeus has lost his focus on me and is infatuated with scenting everything. He's very strong and pulls a lot.

Although he responds to the choke collar and to light corrections, it's lately been a chore to walk him as his mind is elsewhere. He'll heel like a pro for 10 minutes and then break for another 10.

I've been reading about Leeburg's prong collar and dominant dog collar and leash setup. This thread has convinced me to buy it and use it.

I'm particularly interested in the self-correction aspect of it. I get tired of doing the corrections.

LF


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I have nothing against positive training, but I do believe in doing what works for a particular dog.
> 
> Get a prong collar, try it, they aren't that expensive (cheaper than e collars),,If you use it properly I'm betting you'll see results in his pulling you around, after about 2-3 self corrections..Just my opinion


2nd this - and someone who knows how to fit the prong and show you how to give a correction.

Otto's a big stubborn head too. It took more than 2-3 self corrections, though, several corrections where I cranked him up so hard he yelped. He wants to walk faster than I do, it's simply that. I use music on my phone to remind him who's walking who, I remind him frequently 'No Pulling!' He's a work out in a walk. Unlike my female who's just pleasant to walk wtih and she's only 14 months old...


----------



## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

I can't add anything else to the conversation but I will tell you I'm 110 lbs. and my dog was 90 lbs. See where this is going?
I tried to train him myself and I have the scars on my knees and elbows to prove it. Prong?? No way I said! Torture pure and simple. 

Got a fabulous trainer and after watching all the antics of my then 9 month old, he put a prong on the dog, trained me and after that it was like power steering. After a few corrections, I can say that he knew when he had the prong on vs his other collars and corrections faded away.

Traveler is now 7 and the love of my life. This is not to say it was easy. Lots of folks have issues with prongs on a 9 month old but when the neighbors run into their houses when they see you flying down the street behind your dog-and mine was dog reactive- well, it's time to make some changes.

Traveler is on a fur saver 95% of the time but I will use a prong if we will be going places where I know there will be lots of other dogs.

Bottom line is you do what you have to do.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's not good for their necks to be pulling like that. OP, you're a good size so I can only image what that pressure must be with a flat collar. Even if you never use the prong as a corrective tool, and it's only clipped to the dead ring, your pup won't be pulling you with that much force because he won't like the sensation of the prong tips long before he even gets close to putting that much power into his pull.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Sorry I haven't got back in here earlier. My phone took a dive on me today. 

I'll start with Jokyn. Having raised both kids and the youngest is about out of college, SAR is something that appealed to both myself and my wife. We look at it as a chance to contribute to a worthy cause. The time issue may reside in whether my current employment stays put or packs up and leaves. This was the whole problem with the current or my last trainer. He really didn't have a good chance to progress as far as he and we wanted to due to my employment sucking up all my time. He and we were making progress with this trainer. It's a matter of getting back to his class and being able to devote the time I want to training. Which now that things have slowed, is becoming reality for now. As far as spending money and committing our time to SAR, I can say I would not mind that at all. I have no problem with commitments. I'm committed to this dog for better or worse. If you can tell, I am a little head strong myself. Being able to spend quality time with my dog is really what I'm all about. Weekends, weekday afternoons, I'm in.

Boomer, laughing at me is what he does at times. 

Blanketback, I have a temper. I control it better as I'm older now but he knows when he's hit the wrong button on me. Believe me, when I grabbed that collar and walked him half a block home with his front toes tickling the ground and then we came right back out, he knew he was in for it. All I did was slap his shoulder a couple times to get his attention and used my right leg to nudge him back as we went by. He got the idea it was easier to walk by than try to pull again. 

Middleofknowhere, I've tried using thresholds and it worked at first but soon it just didn't matter with him. He may pull alittle less but he still would react. 

Selzer, sound advice. 

Blackshep, I use a body harness. If I were to use a prong, I'd probably use it with the harness as backup. Thanks for the heads up.

LF, I know your pain.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> It's not good for their necks to be pulling like that. OP, you're a good size so I can only image what that pressure must be with a flat collar. Even if you never use the prong as a corrective tool, and it's only clipped to the dead ring, your pup won't be pulling you with that much force because he won't like the sensation of the prong tips long before he even gets close to putting that much power into his pull.


I don't walk him with a collar. I use one of those gentle leader body harnesses. I think that's what it's called. 

Before I would be able to use a prong, I'd really like to learn from and experienced trainer to do so. It may come down to finding a different trainer in the end. I'm probably going by our current/last trainer tomorrow to have an in depth discussion with what's going on. That will probably decide where things go from there.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Here is an update of what I did today. After work. We had this gentle leader awhile back that goes around the muzzle. It kept him from pulling but it also scarred his muzzle as he fought the heck out of it. So we decided after he healed up and he has nicely, we would have him wear it around the house to let him become used to the feel of it. After putting this thing on him, it really changes his attitude. It takes alittle of the wind out of his sails. So tonight, I put it on him, and decided to go for a walk with him and leave the leader on him. I used his body harness and leash but left the GL on him. It really made a difference in his pulling. He pulled alittle but it was very manageable as in he still stayed mostly in heel position. The last half mile, he stayed in perfect heel with loose leash. 

I don't know, but I may stay with this and see where it goes.


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

jafo220 said:


> I don't walk him with a collar. I use one of those gentle leader body harnesses. I think that's what it's called.
> 
> Before I would be able to use a prong, I'd really like to learn from and experienced trainer to do so.


Martingale/limited slip. With your harness if you're into that. I like a harness - for pulling a cart or me on skis or the bike.


Lupine makes a good product. Guaranteed if chewed.
Combo Collar - Lupine


----------



## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

I have been proactive about training him with positive reinforcement avoiding e-collars and prongs. 

The above is the root of your problem. Your dog knows you are a pushover. I love my dogs almost as much as I love my wife and daughter and I would never do anything to harm them in any way. The two tools you are avoiding are the most effective humane route to a solid well behaved GSD.


----------



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Just a little support from someone else who is training a difficult dog without a prong or ecollar....


----------



## Redrider469 (Jul 19, 2013)

I'd get a prong and learn how to use it. I'd also discard the harness as that might promote pulling and makes it hard to control the dog once they get going. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving the dog a quick correction when he's not doing what he knows he should be doing.


----------



## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

Had the same problem with the gentle leader irritating the muzzle, so I ran it through the washer several times, and that made it more pliable and much less abrasive.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

If you work under threshold you are working where he doesn't react. So you cannot be working under threshold and having him still react.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'll add my support as well. I have a young dog with brain damage, not kidding. I can give you some tips if you like, I'm not a trainer but I am experienced with difficult dogs, and I have never resorted to a prong.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My comment about SAR was based on a comment about time limitations with the current trainer and your job. Most of the inquiries we get are from someone who has a neat dog and now want to do it for the dog. Kudos to you if SAR is really your interest. One thing that stands out is "we have attended a couple of obedience classes and he knows his stuff". No, he doesn't. The value of obedience class is not usually learning the basic skills. You get a lot more out of the class if the dog already knows them! The value is learning to ignore other dogs in close proximity and focus on you.

What is the source of the reactivity? Normally it is fear-based and sometimes it is a truly aggressive dog. At 14 months, if there really is an aggression response, I would be concerned it is most likely a fear-response and that is more of a temperament issue that can be managed but will bleed over into other areas of SAR.

Been there done that washed my first SAR prospect (Toby) despite it having excellent drives after way too long trying to make it work. My 2nd (Cyra) one was DA and not out of fear. I got through it with her, but it was an absolute headache to manage her because you are often in very close proximity of other dogs and having a dog you CONSTANTLY have to be on alert with is draining.....she was washed at 3 because of bad hips, though..in retrospect it is not a place I would ever want to go again and would either rehome a dog with those tendencies or make it a pet if I had room and time)

None of us see the dog in front of you, though and rely only on what you have posted. I don't have a problem using a prong or even an ecollar, though the capacity for misuse of both is high. A prong can escalate aggression if it is timed improperly. The gentle leader also has its problems though and probably causes more injuries than either. I use a prong on my dog.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I went through this with Smitty. 

I felt good about trying to avoid the prong as long as I did. Had I succeeded without it, great, but I didn't.

So stick with what you feel is right BUT if you are practicing, doing what your trainer asks and not getting results don't feel bad about using a prong.

The key thing I had to learn was a prong should not be a 'forever' thing. Used correctly you should be able to wean off of it. So keep that in mind as you work through this.

Also, make sure the trainer you go to is flexible and fair. Dogs he/she works should be happy and upbeat while being obedient. Most trainers have demo dogs and can show you how they train and what results they get.

Good luck to you! 



jafo220 said:


> I don't walk him with a collar. I use one of those gentle leader body harnesses. I think that's what it's called.
> 
> Before I would be able to use a prong, I'd really like to learn from and experienced trainer to do so. It may come down to finding a different trainer in the end. I'm probably going by our current/last trainer tomorrow to have an in depth discussion with what's going on. That will probably decide where things go from there.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, I'm not trying to sell you on the prong. If you want to train without one, that's fine. It's not like it's a must-have. Like any tool, you can replace it with another and still get the job done. Some are pretty specific at addressing the task at hand though, and this would be a perfect time to use it. Your pup needs to know that pulling on the leash to the point of knocking you down won't be tolerated. How to teach that is up to you. 

I also have a temper that's aged nicely, lol. Like a fine wine, it's gotten better with age. The blue smoke and cussing was a silly way to suggest you channel this energy and use it to control your pup. I sure didn't mean to act like a raving manic, lol! Think the difference between Clint Eastwood and Roseanne Barr, lmao. Nerves of steel, commanding aura, take no crap attitude. There's power in that energy, and having taken that proper walk after your fall shows you that you can do it. He obviously understood what was being asked, or he wouldn't have complied. Demand this compliance when you're passing those other dogs. If it was fear based, and he was acting like that with every other dog, then it would be a different story. It doesn't take forever to teach this - I've been there too, and it's just a matter of saying: no, this isn't going to be happening.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> My comment about SAR was based on a comment about time limitations with the current trainer and your job. Most of the inquiries we get are from someone who has a neat dog and now want to do it for the dog. Kudos to you if SAR is really your interest. One thing that stands out is "we have attended a couple of obedience classes and he knows his stuff". No, he doesn't. The value of obedience class is not usually learning the basic skills. You get a lot more out of the class if the dog already knows them! The value is learning to ignore other dogs in close proximity and focus on you.
> 
> What is the source of the reactivity? Normally it is fear-based and sometimes it is a truly aggressive dog. At 14 months, if there really is an aggression response, I would be concerned it is most likely a fear-response and that is more of a temperament issue that can be managed but will bleed over into other areas of SAR.
> 
> ...


What I meant by the comment of "stuff" is the commands. He does know the commands. It's a matter of his obedience to do the commands when commanded which spills over into other aspects of his behavior in example pulling to other dogs on walks. 

I totally agree with you. We are not at a point where he is SAR material. I completely understand that. I am working on getting him to that point. I after reading some of the posts in this thread, I have to come to the realization that he may never get to the point where he will be an effective SAR dog. If this turns out to be the case, then we have a different choice to make. One that does not include rehoming. Cruz is my boy, bad or good. He's a lifelong family member, no matter what road we have to take. But there is the possibility we get another dog, and we will look at the bloodlines much closer and the breeder much closer. But Cruz stays no matter what. If that means no other dog, then so be it. 

Here is how a first contact usually goes with Cruz and another dog. He visually see's the dog and gets excited, tail wagging not much barking but he does want to pull in that direction. Then, when he doesn't make the progress towards the other dog, he then relents to whining, tail still wagging. When he can't get to the other dog, and the other dog will not come to him, he starts the barking/whining and kind of jumping around alittle. It usually persists until we break away and go the other direction. 

In cases like our walks. There are dogs at certain houses he encounters every walk. One in particular he approached much like the above paragraph states, with I think play in mind. But after a few encounters with this particular dog, whom is very dog aggressive, he has now turned a different leaf with this dog. The last encounter, was eye opening for me because I've never seen this side of Cruz. The other dog shoved his head under the wood fence where there was a hole and was snarling and snapping at Cruz. He would also hit the fence pretty hard. Cruz immediately took an aggressive behavior and started hitting the fence himself with his teeth trying to bite at the dog. I'm just trying to get past the dogs yard to get him away as this dog has gotten loose from the yard several times. But the first encounter he had with this dog was pretty mellow and he approached the dog much like all the other dogs, tail wagging and really wanting to play or so it seems. 

I just don't see "true" aggression in him unless the other dog starts something like with the previous scenario. I think like you, most times it's alittle fear based but I'm not quite sure. 

I have watched a few videos on prongs. I think I may go ahead and try one. I may just start today. I watched a pretty good video on introducing them to a prong. Very low key and gentle. I may start him in the backyard today on one before taking him out with it on, on a walk. I also watched a little video on remote collars too. It was put out by Leerburg and covered prongs and remote collars. Very informative.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> OP, I'm not trying to sell you on the prong. If you want to train without one, that's fine. It's not like it's a must-have. Like any tool, you can replace it with another and still get the job done. Some are pretty specific at addressing the task at hand though, and this would be a perfect time to use it. Your pup needs to know that pulling on the leash to the point of knocking you down won't be tolerated. How to teach that is up to you.
> 
> I also have a temper that's aged nicely, lol. Like a fine wine, it's gotten better with age. The blue smoke and cussing was a silly way to suggest you channel this energy and use it to control your pup. I sure didn't mean to act like a raving manic, lol! Think the difference between Clint Eastwood and Roseanne Barr, lmao. Nerves of steel, commanding aura, take no crap attitude. There's power in that energy, and having taken that proper walk after your fall shows you that you can do it. He obviously understood what was being asked, or he wouldn't have complied. Demand this compliance when you're passing those other dogs. If it was fear based, and he was acting like that with every other dog, then it would be a different story. It doesn't take forever to teach this - I've been there too, and it's just a matter of saying: no, this isn't going to be happening.


I totally agree. 

I understand no ones trying to sell me anything here. It's just advice. I don't wear my feelings on my sleeve to often. I would rather have someone be blunt and to the point, not sugar coat things. In the end, it's hard to dish out advice with a dog you have never seen first hand.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yeah, it is pretty hard to give advice when you can't see what's going on IRL. The thing that sticks out with me in your case, though, is the fact that you _have_ had some measure of success already. When you took that walk after your fall, and your pup was aware of what you wanted - and gave it to you - then this indicates to me that the problem is something that can be easily resolved. Some people don't have that glimmer of hope, lol. You can do it, your pup can do it - you have that experience to prove it. 

If you do end up prong shopping today, make sure you check the tips before you purchase. Herm Sprenger are the best, but I don't know if you'll find that in pet stores? Some knock-offs are ok, but some are so poorly made that the tips are just chopped off rather than blunted, so these are very bad because you don't want sharp poking tips on the collar.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Dang. I went and got a petco brand prong. It's kind of like you mentioned. I'll look into the Sprenger collars too. 

Well, I kind of did the introduction thing with the prong. Fitted snug but not tight up around the top of the neck area bellow the jawbone. We went out back and I let him wonder the length of the leash to let him get a feel of the prongs and called him back. I did this several times until he kind of got used to the feel of the collar and to kind of give it some slack. Then I did some heeling around the backyard several times to get him to know what I was expecting. We did this for awhile. 

Then it was time for the walk. I used his body harness and another lead as backup. We started out in a heel and by the end of the street about 75 yrds., he was getting the idea. He did try to get out front and I was giving him small corrections to get him back to heel. Then I basically stuck my thumb in the corner of my back pocket because the new lead has a loop down by the latch and it kept him in a good heel position. I kind of let him self correct. Too much tension and he backed off. It was kind of back and forth all the way with small corrections from me.

We got to one of the houses with the dogs he likes to go nuts over. Night and day. He wanted so badly to just go crazy but the prong collar experiences before we got to this point, he remembered. It kept him at bay. Each time I could tell he wanted to go he would look up at me and I would tell him to heel. He heeled all the way past them, and then all the way past the next dog he reacts to. He didn't make a peep. He didn't try to take off and he stayed in heel all the way past both places. 


So. For those out there that have used prongs, now that I'm using one, is there any critiquing or things I should improve or do better to make his experience and mine better? 

I also had the prong hooked in the "dead eye" position? Meaning both eyelets were hooked to the lead. I think if you hook just one, it appears to give a stiffer correction. Any other advice on the prong use?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry, I can't help you with how to use it in your situation. But a lot of other people can. I think you are right that the live ring would give you a better correction. I am not understanding quite where you have it positioned, should be high on the neck. I think the leerburg site has some diagrams. 

I think you are seeing progress with using it. 

That the dog is checking with you is good.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

selzer said:


> Sorry, I can't help you with how to use it in your situation. But a lot of other people can. I think you are right that the live ring would give you a better correction. I am not understanding quite where you have it positioned, should be high on the neck. I think the leerburg site has some diagrams.
> 
> I think you are seeing progress with using it.
> 
> That the dog is checking with you is good.


Thanks.

I watched the Leerburg video on youtube and positioned and adjusted the prong exactly how they had it. 

It did catch me off guard that he looked up at me as we went by the dogs. he has never done that, ever in that situation. They were giving it all they had to try and get him to react. We had a good buffer as I walked on the opposite side of the street. I didn't want to through him right into the fire on the first outing with the prong on. Just a gradual progress. We'll work our way up to the fence over time.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My suggestion is to keep using a back up as well, either collar/harness, and hook another leash to it . Sometimes the prong collars can come apart so having back up while your training him is a "good" thing.

Sounds like you ARE seeing progress, just keep doing what your doing


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes, don't forget the back-up. I like an oversized chain myself. All I can add is to make sure you're giving lots of reinforcement for the desired behaviors you're seeing. Good heel, good quiet, good whatever else you can think of. Let him know that his hard work is appreciated! And don't give an inch when he tests you, lol. This is a fantastic turn of events, huh? 

ETA: there's nothing like a good HS, but I've seen plastic tips you can place on the ends to blunt the garbage prongs too - maybe you could get those to fix yours?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds like you're doing things correctly.

A lot of it is getting a feel for your dog and what level of correction he needs to understand. In my experience you don't want to 'nag' with a lot of little corrections, but rather develop a feel for that 'just' right amount. It will take some practice.

Use the dead ring to start because it is less intense and I think starting out go with the lowest level of correction needed. 

Also agree with self correction if the dog is responsive to it. 

A tip to make sure the prong is fitted properly, if it starts working it's way down lower on his neck, easily or within a few minutes you may need to take a link out to make it more snug. It's actually more comfortable for the dog that way too.

Oh and one more thing, remember lots of positive reinforcement when he's doing what you want, treats and praise. The prong's core purpose is to get your dog back in that 'place' where you can praise and reward again. You still want to stay as positive as possible. 

I think of it as a fence that stops the dog from wandering too far away into negative territory. Once he is back inside 'the fence' or the positive area then you can be positive. 






jafo220 said:


> Dang. I went and got a petco brand prong. It's kind of like you mentioned. I'll look into the Sprenger collars too.
> 
> Well, I kind of did the introduction thing with the prong. Fitted snug but not tight up around the top of the neck area bellow the jawbone. We went out back and I let him wonder the length of the leash to let him get a feel of the prongs and called him back. I did this several times until he kind of got used to the feel of the collar and to kind of give it some slack. Then I did some heeling around the backyard several times to get him to know what I was expecting. We did this for awhile.
> 
> ...


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks for the tips. We had our morning walk and it went pretty good. I noticed he likes to try and range himself out just to the point where he feels the prongs and then either backs off or stays right in that area. When he starts doing this a lot, I will abruptly do turn a round's just to keep him thinking. He doesn't fight it and I noticed, just because he is not looking right at me, he is paying attention to where he is all the time. I know this because he will turn with me, the prongs never dig in. So, I think it is doing what it was intended to do. That's good. He did become alittle more reactive today around some new dogs, and they were alittle closer than yesterdays dogs. But he still stayed within the perimeter's of a heel. I let him look, but still not a whimper or peep out of him. I just gave him the heel command all the way through again. But he done really well. 

I do praise him. I have not treated him so far when using the prong. We used so many treats while trying to heel train the other way that I just wonder if they actually work with him. I think it kind of turned almost more into a bribe rather than a reward at times. I'd rather get the habit of my praise once in awhile be worth more to him that a treat. What do you guys think?

The body harness works well in conjunction with the prong. I mainly walk him with the prong but the harness is there always. I leave a lot of slack in the harness lead. I am worried he may want to start to pull if he feels resistance against the harness. It's just there for a backup.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sounds like you're doing things correctly.
> 
> A lot of it is getting a feel for your dog and what level of correction he needs to understand. In my experience you don't want to 'nag' with a lot of little corrections, but rather develop a feel for that 'just' right amount. It will take some practice.
> 
> ...


We make several stops, usually at street crossings to check the prong and make sure it's where it needs to be. Yes it does ride down alittle, but his other leather collar is bellow it so it can only slide down so far. We adjust it back up and then proceed.

It seemed pretty snug to me the way it is. But we'll try it with one less link this afternoon. I'll give it a shot. 

Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Yes, don't forget the back-up. I like an oversized chain myself. All I can add is to make sure you're giving lots of reinforcement for the desired behaviors you're seeing. Good heel, good quiet, good whatever else you can think of. Let him know that his hard work is appreciated! And don't give an inch when he tests you, lol. This is a fantastic turn of events, huh?
> 
> ETA: there's nothing like a good HS, but I've seen plastic tips you can place on the ends to blunt the garbage prongs too - maybe you could get those to fix yours?


I've seen those plastic tips your referring to. I just don't know with this dog if those will work or not. I'm afraid he may fight his way through it. He has a tendency to tolerate pain to get what he wants within reason. 

I took a close look at the collar after your post and inspected each prong. They seem to be fine. I was going off a glance look the first time I replied to you about it. So they appear to be ok.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't use tons of treats in general, so I wouldn't even consider using them in this situation. IMO - and I might be alone in this, lol - if the situation is already charged past the point where the treats hold much value (such as being aroused by another dog) then I'm devaluing them as a reward in general. So since I do want to use treats as a reward for marker training, and as a reinforcement for already known commands, I'd rather just use verbal praise. That's my take, with my dog. YMMV, lol.

ETA: I've read other posts where people who've had both the HS brand and the various pet store versions have said they're both blunted, so it really depends on the particular collar. Yours might be perfectly fine. I'm picky with the content too, and prefer the stainless steel to the plated nickel lol. Fussy fussy! Don't mind me.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My girl isn't to much into food rewards, she is more motivated by a toy or praise. So no, I don't use food with her when I'm training, and YES I do what your doing when teaching heel..if the dog gets out of the position I want them in, I simply change direction without saying a word, when they are back in position I want, I praise praise praise.. 

I also walk like I'm on a mission when I'm training


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> My suggestion is to keep using a back up as well, either collar/harness, and hook another leash to it . Sometimes the prong collars can come apart so having back up while your training him is a "good" thing.
> 
> Sounds like you ARE seeing progress, just keep doing what your doing


I'm on it. 

Yep seeing progress. I'm giving it my best shot and hopefully we can get through this and come out the other side with a well mannered, nutcase of a dog.:wild:

Not to change the subject, but we kind of touched on tracking and SAR. I had a little brag on this dog I don't remember sharing. Did you know, this dog tracked, a kid on his bicycle for probably over 150 yrds first on concrete then on grass? I didn't know at the beginning what was wrong with him until I got to the grass and seen the minor bike tire impressions in the grass. To me, it was impressive. May just be the norm to tracking dogs though. When he gets in that zone, it's incredibly fun to watch him work. I'd just like to channel that and work with that. We do a lot of "find it" in the backyard too. He's almost obsessive over it. He doesn't want to stop.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I was given guidance by a master trainer for not having my prong tight enough. It was tight enough for others I have known. It is tighter than I ever felt comfortable now but it does not seem to bother the dog or rotate or slide down and if I want to rotate it around the neck, I have to take both hands and work it around. I was told I should be able to slip my pinky under one prong. 

Beau pretty much does everything on a dead ring. He is a dog you can't get away with giving a "too harsh" correction. He has not nailed me but he has pushed close when others have taken the lead from me AND intentionally corrected him. Different dogs though......

We only have Herm Sprengers though (bite the bullet now; they have smooth rounded tips) and I am not sure I would want the prongs of a cheaper collar that tight. Prefer the NON quick release version. It is easy to put on! Honest.

Sounds like you are making progress and the scenario sounds more like an out of control brat than a dog with real aggression issues. We started day one, ZERO pupppy play. He only got to interact off lead with adult team dogs we knew were stable and experienced and my own dogs at the time. At all times the focus has to be to ingore other dogs and with all that I have a dog that seems to know dog language and behave appropriately. Adult dogs taught that, not other puppies. I think that is why so many dogs get so pumped up. Did he have "puppy playtime". JMO..maybe not others.

I was at team SAR training yesterday and we do obedience now at the beginning. Of 8 dogs present, 3 had flat collars, 5 had prongs. 1 of the 3 needed a prong, the other 2 were older dogs with more age and maturity.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I don't use tons of treats in general, so I wouldn't even consider using them in this situation. IMO - and I might be alone in this, lol - if the situation is already charged past the point where the treats hold much value (such as being aroused by another dog) then I'm devaluing them as a reward in general. So since I do want to use treats as a reward for marker training, and as a reinforcement for already known commands, I'd rather just use verbal praise. That's my take, with my dog. YMMV, lol.
> 
> ETA: I've read other posts where people who've had both the HS brand and the various pet store versions have said they're both blunted, so it really depends on the particular collar. Yours might be perfectly fine. I'm picky with the content too, and prefer the stainless steel to the plated nickel lol. Fussy fussy! Don't mind me.


It makes sense. It's like rewarding at the wrong time really. I was busted for that in class with the leave it command. Once the trainer seen what I was doing wrong he corrected me and the dog picked right up on it.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> My girl isn't to much into food rewards, she is more motivated by a toy or praise. So no, I don't use food with her when I'm training, and YES I do what your doing when teaching heel..if the dog gets out of the position I want them in, I simply change direction without saying a word, when they are back in position I want, I praise praise praise..
> 
> I also walk like I'm on a mission when I'm training


See. There is a difference in how people walk. I'm more of a casual walker, but Cruz is like on a mission. I try to dictate the pace, but I do speed up for him at times, like going down hills.:laugh:


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> I was given guidance by a master trainer for not having my prong tight enough. It was tight enough for others I have known. It is tighter than I ever felt comfortable now but it does not seem to bother the dog or rotate or slide down and if I want to rotate it around the neck, I have to take both hands and work it around. I was told I should be able to slip my pinky under one prong.
> 
> Beau pretty much does everything on a dead ring. He is a dog you can't get away with giving a "too harsh" correction. He has not nailed me but he has pushed close when others have taken the lead from me AND intentionally corrected him. Different dogs though......
> 
> ...


Very interesting information about the rundown of SAR dogs with different collars.

Are you asking if Cruz had puppy playtime with adult GSD's? Not much if any really. Not much with any adult dogs. 

I forgot to mention that not long after we went out to walk, he did try to feed back up the leash on me, but not aggressive. With the prong on, and way I hold it, it kind of self corrected him. It was the only time he's done this while walking with a prong. But only our second walk too.

I'm reading this book, just started it, by some lady named Kath or Kathy on the minds of working dogs. I think her cadaver dog is named Solo. I couldn't help but laugh reading the time she first took him to her trainer. The trainer informed her that he is just a big jack-you know what. I had to giggle because some of Solo's behaviors are a little like Cruz's.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Haha. Cat Warren. She is now training Beau's half sister Coda (they have the same mother). I have not met her but would like to. She will be attending the first half of a seminar in May but I am attending the second half and we won't cross paths.

The biggest mistake I made with prong corrections is the correction and release MUST be swift. I was just trying to figure out why he was Sooooo interested in other dogs. Perhaps Beau pretty much does not get excited about them because, from day 1, he was around team dogs at least once a week or so and never learned to get excited......and we walk all the time in the neighborhood and a lot of neighbors have dogs and we stand and talk.

I was just trying to dissect what DOES make a dog get so excited about seeing other dogs? The ones I had who were so bonkers did "puppy play time" and I thought perhaps that was the cause.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think in the case of neighboring dogs, it's a different issue altogether. On neutral territory, all the shenanigans could just be, "Let me loose to sniff some butt!" but when you consider the neighborhood dogs, it's probably more along the lines of, "My road!" "NO! It's my road, get off it!" "Nay nay, I'm on the sidewalk and you're behind the fence, it's my road now, ha ha you suck!" At least that's what think, lol.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> Whatever you did for that to be a successful walk, you need to repeat it. If it means having blue smoke come out of your ears, swearing like a sailor - so be it, lol. But if you can do it once then you can do it again. I'd also get a decent prong collar to help put an end to this carrying on. If he's good with most dogs, and he's just being a spaz with the few in the neighborhood, then he's going to be perfectly fine with it, IMO.


Gonna key in on this also, you did it with "this" dog, you're knew what you wanted!

I'm going to asume this was done with the leash loose...dog "not" being restrained?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Gonna key in on this also, you did it with "this" dog, you're knew what you wanted!
> 
> I'm going to asume this was done with the leash loose...dog "not" being restrained?


Nevermind.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> Haha. Cat Warren. She is now training Beau's half sister Coda (they have the same mother). I have not met her but would like to. She will be attending the first half of a seminar in May but I am attending the second half and we won't cross paths.
> 
> The biggest mistake I made with prong corrections is the correction and release MUST be swift. I was just trying to figure out why he was Sooooo interested in other dogs. Perhaps Beau pretty much does not get excited about them because, from day 1, he was around team dogs at least once a week or so and never learned to get excited......and we walk all the time in the neighborhood and a lot of neighbors have dogs and we stand and talk.
> 
> *I was just trying to dissect what DOES make a dog get so excited about seeing other dogs? The ones I had who were so bonkers did "puppy play time" and I thought perhaps that was the cause.*


Thinking back to when Cruz was a pup, the only interaction with adult to pups was our first obedience class. It was tight and compact area, inside petco. Also it was with other "problem" dogs. Now whether he picked up on these other dogs bad habits, possible, not probable. It was a 6 week course and it was one session per week. 

Now. I will say, I have had trouble with my neighbor and her dog and now dogs pooing in our side yard where Cruz has a view of this and knowing male GSD's, albeit at least the ones I have had personally, they were very territorial. This neighbors dogs will come right up and poo right next to the fence. It seems to piss him off really bad. To the point it's obsessive with him. It's the first thing he checks out when he goes out back for anything. Fires down the steps guns a blazin right to the fence of the side yard. He really doesn't like those dogs. I don't know if this has contributed to his reactiveness with other dogs in the area. But it's an on going battle with the neighbor. I've warned her about Cruz and the consequences that could occur if say Cruz is out the same time their kids let their dogs out in the front yard........OFF LEASH. They just don't get it. 

With some dogs it seems he wants to play. With other dogs it seems he wants to dominate them. Again, mostly in my eyes to how the other dog reacts or act towards Cruz. It's like someone you don't know on the street, comes up and politely introduces themselves and engages in a friendly conversation vs. another walking up to you and slapping you with insults or telling you they are going to smack you around alittle cause they don't like you on their side of the street. That's how I kind of look at Cruz's reactions to other dogs. It's not only dogs, but cars. I think the cars has a lot to do with prey drive. The prong has put a big damper on that. 

But what's really crazy, is this is the same dog that when he was around 6 months old walked through the neighborhood with me on the 4th of July and was looking at me to see if "I" was ok, instead of the other way around. I don't know about your area, but we have a lot of illegal fireworks around, and when a half stick goes off about 150 feet away, it'll make you jump. Cruz just walked right no down the sidewalk like nothing happened, after he checked on me. Fireworks or other loud noises don't phase him. 

I think it all really comes down to genetics in the dog myself. I mean sometimes I think things can happen to cause a mild dog to be reactive, no doubt. But I think it all comes down to genetics.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Oh and by the way, we are having an in home consultation meeting with a new trainer in our area tomorrow night. JFYI.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

jafo220 said:


> Now. I will say, I have had trouble with my neighbor and her dog and now dogs pooing in our side yard where Cruz has a view of this and knowing male GSD's, albeit at least the ones I have had personally, they were very territorial. This neighbors dogs will come right up and poo right next to the fence. It seems to piss him off really bad. To the point it's obsessive with him. It's the first thing he checks out when he goes out back for anything. Fires down the steps guns a blazin right to the fence of the side yard. He really doesn't like those dogs. I don't know if this has contributed to his reactiveness with other dogs in the area. But it's an on going battle with the neighbor. I've warned her about Cruz and the consequences that could occur if say Cruz is out the same time their kids let their dogs out in the front yard........OFF LEASH. They just don't get it.
> 
> With some dogs it seems he wants to play. With other dogs it seems he wants to dominate them..


Yep, gonna say right there is most likely the source of your problem! A dog that is properly conditioned to ignore other dogs..ignores other dogs. My three guys lived next door to, A hole neighbors, dogs that have "no" training and get "no" exercise on both sides of them, they pay no attention to them.

I don't screw around with "I though my dog was freindly folks or dog parks either. My dogs have no issues and I don't need folks and there dogs creating "issues" for me to fix.

I posted some info here you might want to take a look. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ly/430362-protective-house-getting-scary.html


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I'll be finding out more tomorrow night. Cruz will be evaluated in his home environment. I think you can tell so much more than in a class with other dogs. Not saying they can't tell anything, just saying I think they only see half the story in class settings. They have to go by word of mouth and owners descriptions which can be hard to translate to the trainers mind. Vocabulary gets in the way sometimes and how one person see's things, a trainer may see a whole different thing.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do think the trainer will have to see his behavior in the context of the other dogs. There is much much to be said for doing training in a controlled environment in the presence of other dogs.


----------



## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> I do think the trainer will have to see his behavior in the context of the other dogs. There is much much to be said for doing training in a controlled environment in the presence of other dogs.


He is bringing a dog with him. It's part of the sales pitch for using them as trainers. They want to show their training methods with the dog and probably use them as .....gulp...... bait.

I may not have to feed Cruz dinner tonight.:crazy:


----------

