# Pedigree - should I have seen something?



## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

I know "read my dog's pedigree" questions get asked a lot, but I am genuinely curious about Klaus'. As those of you who have seen my past posts know, Klaus has some issues - in general, nervousness and some aggression problems. 

We're still working on figuring out the aggression, but I have to believe that his nervousness and fearfulness is in large part genetic. I'm not saying we're expert owners by any means, but I've never had a dog as jumpy and anxious as he is, and he's never had any experiences that I could attribute it to, especially to the degree he exhibits, and has exhibited since he was young. 

So my questions is, should I have seen some red flags when we looked at his pedigree when we met with the breeder, or is it just luck of the draw?

This is his pedigree here:Niklaus vom Haus Klein

There's nothing really listed about his mother as she is just a pet, but I met her before and since we got Klaus, and while the owner hasn't done much of anything beyond basic obedience, she seems to be a friendly, stable dog. 

I've heard one of Klaus' littermates is DA, and haven't heard anything about the others, but that kind of added to my belief that there's some less than stellar genetics, though it could've been caused by something else.

I would love to hear from those of you good at reading pedigrees as to whether there's something I should have focused on and if you see anything that might have been a tip off. When I looked, I saw a lot of titles, seemingly healthy dogs, and a name I actually recognized, all of which I thought were pretty good, and that's about the extent of my knowledge about pedigrees. I would love a little education for my future knowledge.

TIA!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The pedigree is pure West German showlines....the mother line out....mother, her mother, then her mother, all appear to be non certified for anything by this pedigree....you say the mom is fine temperament wise? So you don't seem to think the pup is a product of her temperament....

It is so hard to say with the WGSL....the priorities of the breeders in SL is usually towards producing a specific conformation type without flaws in physical structure....in most, personality and temperament take a back seat to structure. The pedigree is certainly linebred to "big name" show dogs...I think it is just chance, FWIW, I believe that these poorer nerves are rampant in showlines and many pups are just shuffled into pet homes when the breeder sees an issue with a pup...the more correct ones are kept for showing and breeding, but the genetics that produced the problems are still in teh mix.

Sorry - nothing leaps out and says red flag.



Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

FWIW, I believe that these poorer nerves are rampant in showlines and many pups are just shuffled into pet homes when the breeder sees an issue with a pup


This is certainly true with the ASL. Having worked for years with GSD rescues the stable ones are few and far between.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

The thing about reading a pedigree is that you have to know the dogs in the pedigree to understand it. And that takes years of learning and being active in the sport or activity the line is associated with. As a lay person, you aren't going to be able to look at a pedigree and read it. When you decide to get another dog, the best option is to ask for help from people who know pedigrees to tell you about the dogs behind the puppy you're looking at.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> The pedigree is pure West German showlines....the mother line out....mother, her mother, then her mother, all appear to be non certified for anything by this pedigree....you say the mom is fine temperament wise? So you don't seem to think the pup is a product of her temperament....
> 
> It is so hard to say with the WGSL....the priorities of the breeders in SL is usually towards producing a specific conformation type without flaws in physical structure....in most, personality and temperament take a back seat to structure. The pedigree is certainly linebred to "big name" show dogs...I think it is just chance, FWIW, I believe that these poorer nerves are rampant in showlines and many pups are just shuffled into pet homes when the breeder sees an issue with a pup...the more correct ones are kept for showing and breeding, but the genetics that produced the problems are still in teh mix.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for taking a look. His mother came from one of the bigger breeding operations here, and her mother was one of their females from what I know. They would have had to go abroad to title her, and people often seem to import titled dogs here rather than doing that. She could very well have had a bad temperament, I really don't know. I see that breeder at shows and the dogs they bring are always very good looking and seem unfazed by the show environment, but of course these are the dogs they kept to show, so that's not really saying anything I guess. 

Well, as sad as it is that issues are prevalent in these lines, I am happy to hear that I didn't miss a huge red flag or something. Coming from having mostly rescues and mutts and just getting lucky on temperaments in the past, I didn't ever realize how big of an impact genetics has on things like nerves. Health and looks, yes, but I was pretty much in the "nurture not nature" camp besides on the obvious things like shepherds like to herd and sighthounds like to chase. I guess the universe decided to teach me a lesson in dog genetics with this guy.

I really appreciate you looking over the pedigree and giving your comments - thank you  



Sabis mom said:


> FWIW, I believe that these poorer nerves are rampant in showlines and many pups are just shuffled into pet homes when the breeder sees an issue with a pup
> 
> 
> This is certainly true with the ASL. Having worked for years with GSD rescues the stable ones are few and far between.


That's such a shame  
Well, I guess like I tell Klaus when he's being a fool, it seems that God doesn't give with both hands :wink2:


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Deb said:


> The thing about reading a pedigree is that you have to know the dogs in the pedigree to understand it. And that takes years of learning and being active in the sport or activity the line is associated with. As a lay person, you aren't going to be able to look at a pedigree and read it. When you decide to get another dog, the best option is to ask for help from people who know pedigrees to tell you about the dogs behind the puppy you're looking at.


Very true - as I wrote to Lee, I didn't realize how important that was when we got Klaus for temperament. Definitely not a mistake I will make twice, though I do recognize that at the same time a pedigree alone can't "guarantee" anything.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

_I guess the universe decided to teach me a lesson in dog genetics with this guy._

And you have learned so much from Klaus, and not just the above. You've gained knowledge on training techniques, you've discovered more patience than you probably realized you had and so much more. When the time comes, your new puppy and you will benefit from all you've learned. Something I've learned about life is 'sometimes you get an education you never really wanted'.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Deb said:


> _I guess the universe decided to teach me a lesson in dog genetics with this guy._
> 
> And you have learned so much from Klaus, and not just the above. You've gained knowledge on training techniques, you've discovered more patience than you probably realized you had and so much more. When the time comes, your new puppy and you will benefit from all you've learned. Something I've learned about life is 'sometimes you get an education you never really wanted'.


Thank you, Deb  And I really appreciate all the input and advice you've given me on this forum. Honestly, I see some adult dogs in our future for a while after Klaus. Not that his puppy behaviors were that bad, actually, he was a breeze to house train and didn't chew much, but I just like a better picture of what I'm actually getting into I guess. 

Nevertheless, I'd still like to be able to read a pedigree better, but I think you're right - I would really need the help of someone more experienced!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"from one of the bigger breeding operations here, "

what does that mean - high volume , litters available to the want it asap buyers at all times.

they can afford losses ? cost of doing business?


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

carmspack said:


> "from one of the bigger breeding operations here, "
> 
> what does that mean - high volume , litters available to the want it asap buyers at all times.
> 
> they can afford losses ? cost of doing business?


I wouldn't say available all the time (though maybe?) as there's just not enough demand here, but I believe they run similarly to another program I know here that has many dogs and quite a few litters per year. The dogs live in runs, not in a home, but they're well kept and in good condition. What I do know is that when I saw them at a show, they had a lot of dogs with them and a lot of handlers, at least for here. It's definitely a business. 

This is their website, though I don't think it's been updated in a while: ???? ????? ???? ?????

We chose not to go that route because we wanted the puppy to come from more of a family environment - around kids, etc. Though in hindsight, maybe that shouldn't have been a big concern.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The puppy is WGSL and looks fine in pedigree -- nothing jumps out. We have dogs in common back 4-5 generations.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

selzer said:


> The puppy is WGSL and looks fine in pedigree -- nothing jumps out. We have dogs in common back 4-5 generations.




Thanks for looking over it - I guess it must be something more recent on his mom's side or just luck of the draw.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go back and view all the threads we have had on this forum about the laughable IPO trials EVEN at the national SV Sieger show levels showing the show lines in the protection phase.

it isn't getting any better 

the lines are getting more intensely concentrated in a narrowing gene pool

all the more important to test the breeding partners and a dam described as " his mother as she is just a pet"
or a sire who is just a pet --- never stressed to see the thresholds or character is just not good enough


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

carmspack said:


> go back and view all the threads we have had on this forum about the laughable IPO trials EVEN at the national SV Sieger show levels showing the show lines in the protection phase.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, in hindsight the dam was probably the weakest link and something we shouldn't have gone with. At the time I just really didn't realize how important it could be, as I told Lee earlier in the thread. Most of my dogs have come from parents unknown to me and turned out fine, but I guess I just got lucky - that and most were adults when we got them so we already knew their personalities going in. You live and you learn I guess :/


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your dog has Zamp, three time in five generations. I have trained a Zamp son about 5 years ago. He was very reactive, could be nice dog with owner, but slightest bit of pressure put on him and he was reactive aggression with not clear head. The owner wanted to put IPO title on the dog but after a year he was resigned to fact that his dog was not built for IPO. He was insecure with new people and places, but he would react aggressively with his insecurity. Nice looking dog, very thin nerves.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Your dog has Zamp, three time in five generations. I have trained a Zamp son about 5 years ago. He was very reactive, could be nice dog with owner, but slightest bit of pressure put on him and he was reactive aggression with not clear head. The owner wanted to put IPO title on the dog but after a year he was resigned to fact that his dog was not built for IPO. He was insecure with new people and places, but he would react aggressively with his insecurity. Nice looking dog, very thin nerves.




I would say that's a decent description of the problems we have with Klaus, so that's interesting to hear. Thankfully *touch wood* he doesn't act out aggressively towards strange people or dogs outside of our home, but what you say about not having a clear head describes him very well, as does the insecurity. Thank you for weighing in. Zamp was the dog I had heard of most in his pedigree, so that's really interesting to hear about his son!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Zamp was a sieger. So he was a good dog. Possible he doesn't produce well. But you have to remember that dogs get 50% of their genetics from the sire. The rest comes from the dam. And, the dam imprints the litter, so she is a double whammy. Cliffson is telling you about 1 dog. Guarantied that dog has a dam, so unless there is a number of Zamp progeny that have questionable nerve, I don't think a sample set of 1 can pinpoint the problem. Chances are better than good that the dam of the pup Cliff is talking about has a dog or more in common with yours as well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

can you draw this conclusion ?

"Zamp was a sieger. So he was a good dog."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> go back and view all the threads we have had on this forum about the laughable IPO trials EVEN at the national SV Sieger show levels showing the show lines in the protection phase.
> 
> it isn't getting any better
> 
> ...


Seems we get as many owners struggling with a working line pup as we get owners struggling with a show-line dog, if not more. Seems they aren't getting any better either. But I will take a GSL any day over a working line dog. I think the GSL temperament is better across the board. If you want a malinois get one, just don't turn GSDs into mals. Not everyone likes them, not even k9 officers. There are a number of k9 officers who don't want the working line pups for their family pet. That isn't what the founder wanted for this breed either. A German Show-line dog has it in them to do police work, they've been doing it. They also make awesome pets. They are not all nerve bags. In fact, I am surprised at how quickly you all decide that it is genetics without seeing the dog when it is a show line. And if it is working line, it is always a problem with the handling.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> can you draw this conclusion ?
> 
> "Zamp was a sieger. So he was a good dog."


As well as anyone saying that he wasn't because one of his progeny could not do IPO. 

Yes, he had to make SchHIII or IPOIII, he had to do the protection phase the day of the show. He had to have endurance, and the conformation to beat out a class of a hundred or more dogs with the same credentials. I think he probably had a progeny group as well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer "If you want a malinois get one, just don't turn GSDs into mals."

I do not . And I do not. I am against this . 
I did have a litter co-bred effort . Held back a very drivey male . Spring loaded jumping , fast, lots of prey and tug and no inhibitions.
Cops came by to see his growing up -- and to potentially make him a k9 unit member (if I decided to let him go).
The description was a mal with brains.

I did not keep him. 
hips and elbows excellent --- 

the dog had no brakes . He was always super animated . Movement . Tendency to be hectic if not in full throttle drive.

that is not what I want to perpetuate. 

there has to be a calm in the off moments . An ability to cap . Focus .

He did go for evaluation - passed flying colours and was picked up by a USA LE for SWAT initial entry --- and then they bought his brother who was still in BC.

my standards interpretation is pretty old time - looking to the Marko's Mutz,s Bernd (et al) the ideals of a golden era.

"A German Show-line dog has it in them to do police work, they've been doing it"

they have trouble doing IPO ! seriously.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

selzer said:


> Zamp was a sieger. So he was a good dog. Possible he doesn't produce well. But you have to remember that dogs get 50% of their genetics from the sire. The rest comes from the dam. And, the dam imprints the litter, so she is a double whammy. Cliffson is telling you about 1 dog. Guarantied that dog has a dam, so unless there is a number of Zamp progeny that have questionable nerve, I don't think a sample set of 1 can pinpoint the problem. Chances are better than good that the dam of the pup Cliff is talking about has a dog or more in common with yours as well.




Oh I think Zamp is amazing. I have a friend with a Zamp great grandson who has a really good temperament. Again I don't know much about how genetics work in this regard. I will say that the weakest genetic link is probably his dam and granddam on that side since they weren't titled or anything. Or maybe Klaus is just a bit off and we aren't good enough handlers to really fix his issues. I'm not sure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

telavivgsd said:


> Oh I think Zamp is amazing. I have a friend with a Zamp great grandson who has a really good temperament. Again I don't know much about how genetics work in this regard. I will say that the weakest genetic link is probably his dam and granddam on that side since they weren't titled or anything. Or maybe Klaus is just a bit off and we aren't good enough handlers to really fix his issues. I'm not sure.


My new pup has Zamp, and some of the other dogs in your pedigree. I haven't had him that long, but at 12 weeks he seems excellent. 

There are dogs in your dog's pedigree that are in the same lines as my other dogs. Pakros is one of them. Yeah, the way genetics work in this is tough, because it is not like you can look back four generations and see a specific dog and say, that is where he has his incredible bite-strength from. The dogs back there are ok. But the thing is, every litter has stronger and weaker dogs. If you breed the stronger dogs, all is good. If you breed a weaker dog, you get progeny that might be even worse. Sometimes a dog/bitch combination produces worse than average, even when the dog and bitch bred to other partners produce well. 

The thing to think of is that if you stick it out with this pup, and you find how best to manage him, how best to train him, what leadership style works best for him, you will grow as a handler/trainer/owner immensely. 

Good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> selzer "If you want a malinois get one, just don't turn GSDs into mals."
> 
> I do not . And I do not. I am against this .
> I did have a litter co-bred effort . Held back a very drivey male . Spring loaded jumping , fast, lots of prey and tug and no inhibitions.
> ...


Some do well in it. There are some excellent GSL dogs out there. Glad you don't want malinois in shepherd skins.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

selzer said:


> My new pup has Zamp, and some of the other dogs in your pedigree. I haven't had him that long, but at 12 weeks he seems excellent.
> 
> There are dogs in your dog's pedigree that are in the same lines as my other dogs. Pakros is one of them. Yeah, the way genetics work in this is tough, because it is not like you can look back four generations and see a specific dog and say, that is where he has his incredible bite-strength from. The dogs back there are ok. But the thing is, every litter has stronger and weaker dogs. If you breed the stronger dogs, all is good. If you breed a weaker dog, you get progeny that might be even worse. Sometimes a dog/bitch combination produces worse than average, even when the dog and bitch bred to other partners produce well.
> 
> ...




Thank you so much. Like you say, obviously it's not a perfectly exact science. If I did it over again, though, I would go to someone who knows more about it before selecting a puppy, but what's done is done. We are definitely trying to stick it out - hopefully with more work and some maturing, and maybe a change of scenery we can work it out!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer -- this was a breeding decision .
the sire of that/those two dogs that ended up in LE Swat , was one of mine That family , part of a 35 year programme.

both dogs were successful --- they went through tough evaluation , here , by the LE dept making the recommendation, and again , by the LE dept in the USA which was going to work with them.

they had very desireable qualities . they took a great deal of pressure . no handler aggression -- very clear , super confident .

as I said , a breeding decision, not a direction I wanted to go to . 

dogs still able to provide valuable service .

what Cliff said "
"He was very reactive, could be nice dog with owner, but slightest bit of pressure put on him and he was reactive aggression with not clear head. The owner wanted to put IPO title on the dog but after a year he was resigned to fact that his dog was not built for IPO. He was insecure with new people and places, but he would react aggressively with his insecurity. Nice looking dog, very thin nerves."

what can you do with this?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I never said Zamp was sole reason for temperament of said dog, but that he was in pedigree three times in five generations. I agree that both sides of pedigree are important. ( I think I have read enough pedigrees successfully to know this...wink wink)
The genetic base of these lines is what it is....in terms of temperament, sometimes you get extreme shyness, sometimes you get sharpness, usually you get Golden type temperament( which many feel is great), but the nerves of these dogs are fairly consistent because of genetics. 
Btw, anyone that thinks that the DDR, the Czech, the Czech/West working lines are like Malinois speaks only from internet chatter.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> I never said Zamp was sole reason for temperament of said dog, but that he was in pedigree three times in five generations. I agree that both sides of pedigree are important. ( I think I have read enough pedigrees successfully to know this...wink wink)
> The genetic base of these lines is what it is....in terms of temperament, sometimes you get extreme shyness, sometimes you get sharpness, usually you get Golden type temperament( which many feel is great), but the nerves of these dogs are fairly consistent because of genetics.
> Btw, anyone that thinks that the DDR, the Czech, the Czech/West working lines are like Malinois speaks only from internet chatter.




I agree with Cliff.....will even go so far as to say that the level of ignorance masquerading as authority in some posts is purely astounding.

The Sieger show is about structure. Structure. and Structure. Not to mention politics. In Germany. In the US. At one sieger show I was told the VA1 dog a day before the class. Specifically who and why.

I have seen many showline dogs in training. Many can do bitework in certain drives and with certain stimuli. Many can track. Few can do more than marginal obedience. They get titled. Often they fail, and fail and fail. Until the right trial, the right judge, the right helper all line up in a row - like the saying about the stars.

There are so many BYB working line dogs out there and the direction of the sport is changing the priorities of many to produce high prey/toy drive. Very few still looking for balance and 3 phases. 

Sorry this is so far off the OP's problem, but the derailment and misinformation being posted was alarming.

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you Cliff and Lee. You saved me from having to post. I was doing a lot of tongue biting. :surprise:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have friends with show lines, nice show lines, that they, themselves are working and titling. They love their show lines, but even they are now heavily considering crossing out to working lines because they are having a tough time finding dogs with good working ability and good nerves in the show lines.

When your breeding goals and expectations are low, then, maybe it is easier to find suitable dogs for breeding.  When your breeding goals and expectations are high, because you love this breed and want to maintain what is left of what used to be the ultimate working breed, mediocre or "good enough" is never an option.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

For OP, I'm guessing part of Klaus is nature, part nurture (and I am not blaming you- we all make mistakes with our first dogs). Rather than trying to understand a pedigree yourself, when choosing your next GSD, go to a breeder who really understands what they are doing when they combine lineages, and is consistently producing GSDs of the type you are looking for. GSD breeders on this forum can help direct you, I'm sure. And, you'll find that in the dog world, there are a lot of very strong opinions on various lines or types of dogs. It's best if you can actually see various types of dogs in person (and not just at training), and then narrow down what you are looking for. 

Not sure that about these broad malinois generalizations. Malinois are different that the GSD, for sure, but there are very different lines out there. I select for pack drive, not just toy drive, and there are plenty of choices. Smartest dogs I've ever trained, show them once, they've got it for life- so be careful what you show them, high level of intuition and excellent at reading people. You would be hard pressed to find a breed more into their people/person.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> For OP, I'm guessing part of Klaus is nature, part nurture (and I am not blaming you- we all make mistakes with our first dogs). Rather than trying to understand a pedigree yourself, when choosing your next GSD, go to a breeder who really understands what they are doing when they combine lineages, and is consistently producing GSDs of the type you are looking for. GSD breeders on this forum can help direct you, I'm sure. And, you'll find that in the dog world, there are a lot of very strong opinions on various lines or types of dogs. It's best if you can actually see various types of dogs in person (and not just at training), and then narrow down what you are looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure that about these broad malinois generalizations. Malinois are different that the GSD, for sure, but there are very different lines out there. I select for pack drive, not just toy drive, and there are plenty of choices. Smartest dogs I've ever trained, show them once, they've got it for life- so be careful what you show them, high level of intuition and excellent at reading people. You would be hard pressed to find a breed more into their people/person.




Thank you for the input! If we get another GSD puppy in the future we will definitely do what you recommend. Honestly I haven't really found that kind of breeder here in Israel from the ones I've seen (but that definitely doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I didn't find them in my search). Then again, with the amount we've spent on trainers, vet visits, and a behaviorist, I think we could have imported a puppy . Again, hindsight. 

In the end we love our Klaus, issues and all. Neither my husband nor I have ever owned or known a dog quite like him - in some good ways and some bad ways. It is interesting to learn more about genetics and the effects they have.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I only wish these discussions of the shortcomings of the show line dogs contained a balance of educated breeders, owners and fanciers.

By that I mean I wish the discussion was being had by a balanced group of respected breeders, owners, competitors, fanciers of WGSLs, ASLs, AND working lines. 

I rarely if ever see that balance here, what I see is working line breeders saying working lines are the superior GSD...and I would expect them to think/say that since that is what they have chosen to invest their life in.

And then someone says that they know showline breeders who want to cross working lines to bring in better working ability, shouldn't that be good? Shouldn't all the groups of GSDs be looking at what are the best qualities and combinations rather than all downing the other groups? I feel like the more one group judges another the more isolated they become, the less than can get good input from each other, and I am not convinced the whole breed isn't suffering because of this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just thank God that there are people who love and want to preserve the WGSL dog. There will always be people who fancy that ASL and Canadian Show line dogs. You all will preserve your working line dogs.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The thing is I would say the majority of us had SL's at some point. Some of us still work with a lot of them. So unballenced? Perhaps, but most of us came to that conclusion based off experience. And no that's not saying all SL's are junk or that all WL's are perfect. We all speak in generalities.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

selzer said:


> I just thank God that there are people who love and want to preserve the WGSL dog. There will always be people who fancy that ASL and Canadian Show line dogs. You all will preserve your working line dogs.


The problem is that we should be preserving the German Shepherd Dog. A breed that was, at one time, the ultimate utilitarian working dog. The sad thing is that most people people no longer care about preserving the GSD. 

And I don't think WGSL are endangered. They are the majority of GSD bred especially in Europe and too many people have a vested interest in making sure they stick around, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't want to get in the middle of a working line vs SL debate. I've had both, and I've loved both, and I've never had a perfect dog. I believe there is no perfect dog. You just need to find the right fit for each person/family. And, of course, having access to an experienced and excellent breeder, whatever the line, helps tremendously. 

My WGSL has Zamp on his mother's side of the pedigree. He's a great family dog, wonderful with the baby, protective of house and yard, very intelligent and trainable, yet stable around guests and out in public. If I had wanted to do protection work, I'd have chosen a breeder who specializes in protection work. I think Asher would be good at tracking and advanced obedience, but I don't have the time or opportunity right now to back that up with anything other than my intuition/opinion. 

There are things I'd change about WGSLs and about the show culture if I could wave my magic wand. The OP's dog may very well have dogs in his pedigree that have contributed to his issues. I believe that genetics influence behavior as much, if not more than, training and nurture. But I doubt the OP's problems have arisen only because the dog is a SL, which seems to be the implication here. When a working-line owner posts about handler-aggression, I don't think anyone here would suggest that is a typical issue in the line. Though, perhaps, I have misunderstood some of the posts. I think aggression/growling at family members is uncommon in any line. 

The OP seems to be taking heroic measures to train/manage the situation and explore every option. I was hoping that they would find some health issue that would explain Klaus' unpredictable behavior. Perhaps, they will. Perhaps they will get some answers by researching his pedigree and genetics. I wish I could offer more than my good wishes, and I hope they keep us updated on his progress.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lhczth said:


> The problem is that we should be preserving the German Shepherd Dog. A breed that was, at one time, the ultimate utilitarian working dog. The sad thing is that most people people no longer care about preserving the GSD.
> 
> And I don't think WGSL are endangered. They are the majority of GSD bred especially in Europe and too many people have a vested interest in making sure they stick around, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.


There is a breach in the breed. Both the show line people and the working line people feel that there line best mirrors what the breed should be and what the breed was intended to be. 

Both have little tolerance for the other. If you working line people could hear yourselves, how condescending and arrogant you are, like your dogs are the ones that should be the ones named sieger and the WGSL should cease to be -- that is what it sounds like. You are constantly putting down the dogs, even though the dog ARE being titled. Most of you haven't set foot in Germany and have never been to a sieger show, but you all know that what is done over there is a joke, midnight trials, etc, etc. You put together videos of the dogs sent to the back, whose protection was not good, and say, Look!!!! Look how bad!!!! And portray it as typical. 

Are dogs have different strengths and they are raised differently. We are not building drives in the whelping box. Shoo, we are not making them walk on several different surfaces and conditioning them to things like umbrellas and other stuff either so they can pass a temperament test -- some people do this. It isn't necessary. It is a method of masking poor nerves, trying to make a dog comfortable in all situations by putting them carefully into many situations. If the dog needs all that, sorry, but the dog isn't right. Because it is correct that genetics are genetics. 

It is also true that a nervous, unsettled dam will imprint that on her puppies. Once the puppies reach 2-3 weeks and they are interacting with their dam and littermates, beyond being a little sucker, and their ears and eyes are open, all their confidence is coming from the dam/litter. If she is constantly freaking out at every noise, at every person she sees, if dogs are allowed to wander in and she rushes forth to chase them out, then the puppies are going to learn some really bad behaviors, and that learning, done during the period in the whelping box, that is like concrete learning. It is good or bad. It is very difficult to iron out of a dog. 

I think the break between working lines and show lines is done and over with. Show line people will not breed your dogs to theirs in any responsible fashion because they do not want what the working line dogs are likely to offer. And working line breeders have so much contempt for the show lines, that they are not willing to see any good in them, so by suggesting we be preserving the breed, you are really suggesting preserving the working lines. 

And money is to be made in ALL the lines, sorry. Suggesting that Show Line people are all about the money, is again just indicative of how far apart you are from wanting to preserve the breed, and not just your lines. Because we also feel we have the best of the best. We also have those who are working with us to create the best dogs, and it is about the breed, and not about money. Shoo, the only way to become a millionaire in dogs is to start out as a billionaire. 

The breed split as other breeds have. They aren't going to come together again. The worst thing in the world would be a GSL with a WL temperament -- Mycrobracer, your avatar is everything a show line person does not want to see in dogs. We don't want to have high drive, vicious dogs that need muzzles. Forget it. We like to take our dogs to the vet and everywhere else without one. And yes our dogs CAN be trained in protection without having to sport muzzles. The show line temperament is handler sensitive. You people say, "put pressure on the dog..." No, the dog wants to please and wants to do things right. You see that as weakness, we see it as dogs that want to work with their handlers, and are easy to train, which they are. They still love biting sleeves, and they can be put into a garbage dumpster after an escaped convict and make their owner's proud, even without starting all that drive crap in the whelping box. 

I am sure that you all wouldn't want to see a working line dog in a show line body either. Or a show line temperament in a working line body. Whichever. The breed is split. It isn't going to come together. We can sit here and beat our chests about which is better, which is correct. We can know the answer. But it isn't getting us anywhere.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Thank you Cliff and Lee. You saved me from having to post. I was doing a lot of tongue biting. :surprise:


and I had to leave the room --- I would have been spraying it not saying it

Lee's point 
"The Sieger show is about structure. Structure. and Structure. "

and that is another discussion ! It's not even good . Not even close to the standard.

selzer go back and visit this thread 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/681801-fake-euro-titles.html


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Since you quoted me. Actually I have been to Germany and have been to the Sieger show. I have good friends with show lines that can work and I am very supportive of them. They are very competitive in the show world and not just people who breed show lines for the pet market. They title many of their own dogs, even going to Germany when necessary so they can meet the SV's demands for SV judges. 

Sorry, but when show line dogs are selling to China for 6 figures Euro, yes, money is a huge factor in why changes are not made to improve the working ability. The SV eliminated the 5/5 performance ratings at the SS after people complained that it was too hard and it was taking breedings away from the VA males. The USA SS will probably be forced to also eliminate the 5/5 performance rating so that we are not doing anything above and beyond the demands of the SV. Sad thing is that at last year's USCA SS, many of the dogs did a good job with the increased obedience requirements. This is all about money and selling puppies and continuing with the status quo. 

And, you know what, midnight trials are very real. Having friends involved in the show world is an eye opener because they confirm the allegations. 

I also, btw, promote good responsible show breeders who get out there and prove their dogs and so do many of my working friends. Heck, I have promoted Ambred breeders too, in the past, when I knew of ones producing sound temperaments. 

There are a few of us on this board that have been around for awhile, who have seen the changes in the breed over the decades and our comments and opinions are based on experience and not prejudice or wishful thinking. As I have said before, my goal is to maintain the GSD as a utilitarian working dog and I will always fully support those who have the same goal, show lines or working lines. 




selzer said:


> There is a breach in the breed. Both the show line people and the working line people feel that there line best mirrors what the breed should be and what the breed was intended to be.
> 
> Both have little tolerance for the other. If you working line people could hear yourselves, how condescending and arrogant you are, like your dogs are the ones that should be the ones named sieger and the WGSL should cease to be -- that is what it sounds like. You are constantly putting down the dogs, even though the dog ARE being titled. Most of you haven't set foot in Germany and have never been to a sieger show, but you all know that what is done over there is a joke, midnight trials, etc, etc. You put together videos of the dogs sent to the back, whose protection was not good, and say, Look!!!! Look how bad!!!! And portray it as typical.
> 
> ...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Some pictures of my vicious working lines. Nike and Vala. Nike was also my PPD. The last very very dark dog was a SchH3 DPO FH PPD who protected his family on a few occasions yet could be handled by a 4 year old. 

Get tired of people with an agenda spewing nonsense.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Here's another vicious working dog. Donovan IPO1 TR2 AD Service dog and diabetic alert dog. This vicious dog literally saved his Marine's life.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer "how line people will not breed your dogs to theirs in any responsible fashion because they do not want what the working line dogs are likely to offer"

it would be a mistake - won't carry the nerves --

and there is a danger of sables. We all know what happened to the one brave sable entry - TIMO BERRENKASTEN

I go to as many shows as I can - including all breed where I might be on hand as a stand by handler ,
the GSDCof C nationals -- oh dear -- temperament and that was in the specials class -- dogs with a life time experience being in that environment --- (never mind the nonsense outside in the parking lot)
I have been to see the WGSL's being koered -- saw ONE nice pup this past Sept.

as a group where were these people during the working trials? They did not even watch never mind enter.

that event finished and out they come like morning glories at sunrise.

ONE pup -- really nice . I could have worked with him.

Then at the show portion - true to prediction this dogs were placed in inverse order - the more roached they were the closer they were to the front of the placements.

Have a friend who is a French ring trainer and competitor who was commissioned to raise a pup into a house trained , basic obedience youth. WGSL's . He said it was very good ! I have seen or heard of other good show lines coming out of this kennel.

There was another forum member who had WGSL SAR dog in her unit -- asked to see the pedigree because I am ever hopeful and celebrate any one who makes the effort -- There were many generations coming from the same breeder .
There was a deliberate organized , critical , program with a purpose of a working dog using selected show lines.

I would not be adverse to recommending this kennel.

are working dogs automatically good? NO! because there are some pedigrees that are mashed together . Bred for extremes . Not balanced.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OK well for what it's worth, I never interpreted CobraRacr's picture to mean the dog was vicious...I assumed the dog was going to do something requiring a muzzle, I don't know anything about the sport they do but dogs that are expected to bite for real have to be proofed with muzzle and no gear on the human, correct? So I always just assumed it was along those lines.

I do NOT think working line dogs are vicious and that was never my point in saying anything...I do really wish there was more respect is all, I guess.

I mean, my white dog is a pretty darn good dog. And yeah the way people talk on here sometimes ....it just really doesn't make me feel great, doesn't make me feel like some of you guys think me and my dog have any place near anything called GSD. That makes me sad. I don't see any solution though.

I'm not going to test my dog for IPO for a lot of reasons, not the least of which because he is a service dog candidate and I interperate the DOJ's stance that service dogs should not participate in protection sports. But I honestly don't feel like he'd ever get a fair shake either. From what I hear here I think people would see his coat color coming from a mile away and their mind would be made up and that would be that, so why bother. I wonder if some people with show lines don't feel the same way?

And I don't think any of that type of attitude serves the breed. Wouldn't the whites be better representatives of the breed if they were welcomed and embraced on the field...if we all work together instead of tearing each other down.

I have no doubt that there is responsibility for this on all sides, not just the working line people, it's just that those are the voices loudest on here.

I can't stand the look of the extreme show lines either, and I absolutely can see what people are opposed to there. I wouldn't want to own a dog that looked like that....and that's a big part of how i wound up with a white because to my eye they have the most "normal" conformation after the working line.

Anyway....


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

selzer said:


> Mycrobracer, your avatar is everything a show line person does not want to see in dogs. We don't want to have high drive, vicious dogs that need muzzles. Forget it. We like to take our dogs to the vet and everywhere else without one. And yes our dogs CAN be trained in protection without having to sport muzzles.


Selzer, really, did you REALLY come to that conclusion? There are so many things wrong about your posts in this thread, but I'm just picking out this statement since many have already spoken. There is no insult in pointing out ignorance because it appears that there is a lot you don't know and that may not be any fault of yours. I will let Mycobracer explain it, but I'm pretty sure that is not why the muzzle is being used. Your statement is wrong on so many levels, the reason behind his avatar only being one facet of that.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

carmspack; said:


> There was another forum member who had WGSL SAR dog in her unit -- asked to see the pedigree because I am ever hopeful and celebrate any one who makes the effort -- There were many generations coming from the same breeder .
> There was a deliberate organized , critical , program with a purpose of a working dog using selected show lines.
> 
> I would not be adverse to recommending this kennel.
> ...


My first GSD was a WGSL coated. She was my first SAR dog as well. She had great drive, stellar nerves, fantastic Hunt, social and tireless.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I had no issues with my visit to a local club, they were friendly and welcoming and I brought a mixed line dog. The trainer I use for some problem solving is a member of the club. She complimented my girl and said she could do it, it's my handling skills that are questionable, lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cowboys said "
I mean, my white dog is a pretty darn good dog. And yeah the way people talk on here sometimes ....it just really doesn't make me feel great, doesn't make me feel like some of you guys think me and my dog have any place near anything called GSD. That makes me sad. I don't see any solution though. "

I am sorry that you feel this way.
I see fellow forum members take genuine interest and give thoughtful answers to help ANY dog owner, no matter if it is a rescue, non-pedigreed , mixed breed , mixed lines . 
They are generous with their time . 

every dog deserves the best chance at life . Some of this chance begins with decisions made by breeders , and that is the reason for passion,

Service dogs are legitimate working dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If the people that know nothing about working lines would not comment on working lines and the people that know nothing about show lines would not comment on show lines, people might actually learn something.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

selzer said:


> I just thank God that there are people who love and want to preserve the WGSL dog. There will always be people who fancy that ASL and Canadian Show line dogs. You all will preserve your working line dogs.


I'd love to hear what YOU are doing for the WGSL. Have YOU been to Germany or a Sieger show? As a breeder, have you ever entered one of your own dogs? Genuinely curious here..Preaching about arrogance and preservation, I'd be thrilled to know what exactly it is that you're contributing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know ANYTHING about mycobraracer's dog. I said the photo gives the perception of everything we don't want in the breed. There's a difference. The dogs that are on the field doing IPO or Schutzhund or whatever you want to call it are probably better trained than any other dogs out there. But the focus of the dog on the sleeve, the dog with big bad muzzles on them are creating an image problem that WGSL people don't really want to encourage. Yes, our dogs can do IPO. But when you see photos of IPO it is almost always the protection phase. So instead of getting a picture in their brains of a dog walking nicely alongside their owner on a trail, people picture a dog that is chewing on some criminal's leg, or hanging on a sleeve, or with a big muzzle on them. It isn't what they are, it is what they are perceived to be.

So no, WGSL breeders are not itching to breed to WL dogs. Frankly, I agree with Carmen that it isn't a good idea. 

Working line breeders don't want show lines in their dogs. 

The WGSL dogs I am dealing with are not terribly roached, and the Germans stack their dogs differently to accentuate that. The true roach is a conformation fault anyway. I've seen some nasty top lines, and I suppose some people are breeding their dogs to that, but I've also seen very nice top lines. 

There are very nice dogs that are WGSL. I am sure there are nice dogs in other lines as well. They do have different strengths and I really don't have a problem with that. 

But I do wish we wouldn't glorify bitework so much. I think it is hard on the whole of shepherd owners when we are perceived as a breed that likes to bite.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

selzer said:


> Mycrobracer, your avatar is everything a show line person does not want to see in dogs. We don't want to have high drive, vicious dogs that need muzzles. Forget it. We like to take our dogs to the vet and everywhere else without one. And yes our dogs CAN be trained in protection without having to sport muzzles.




Well, anyone who trains, knows that's an agitation muzzle. It's steel reinforced and can cause a lot of damage. Hardly something I would use if I had an out of control vicious dog. Heck, after decoying the muzzle portion of the Police Dog 3 dogs at the western regionals, I can tell you I felt like I was hit by a Mac truck. Bruised cheek, split open eye brow and and a fat lip. I was wearing a bullet proof vest to prevent ribs breaking since that's a common injury for muzzle work. 

I can assure you, my dogs go everywhere. I mean I just had to buy my wife a new SUV because she was tired of cramming Xander into her car, and she didn't like having to come get the truck from me every time she wanted to do something. That's how often we take our dogs places. Balance is everything. I have a very strict criteria for dogs to make the cut in my house let alone be a dog I would breed. You may be surprised at what I put emphasis on. 

I could just as easily post a picture like this as my avatar. But why? This is the same dog that's in my avatar.


Anyone remember in 2013 when I was in between dogs and decided to borrow a dog who hadn't worked in years and earned three titles in six weeks with her? Here she is. Not vicious, not out of control. Not even my dog. Picked her up and we worked. 


So when you say take your dog everywhere, do you mean... 
The front yard? 


Work perhaps?



How about on a 1000 mile rod trip?


Maybe spend the day at the lake a couple hours away? 


Or perhaps you prefer Eklutna lake in Alaska? I live in California for those who don't know. 


But don't assume that because my dog does this:

























That she also doesn't do this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

selzer said:


> The dogs that are on the field doing IPO or Schutzhund or whatever you want to call it are probably better trained than any other dogs out there. But the focus of the dog on the sleeve, the dog with big bad muzzles on them are creating an image problem that WGSL people don't really want to encourage. *Yes, our dogs can do IPO*. But when you see photos of IPO it is almost always the protection phase. So instead of getting a picture in their brains of a dog walking nicely alongside their owner on a trail, people picture a dog that is chewing on some criminal's leg, or hanging on a sleeve, or with a big muzzle on them. It isn't what they are, it is what they are perceived to be.
> 
> So no, WGSL breeders are not itching to breed to WL dogs. Frankly, I agree with Carmen that it isn't a good idea.
> 
> ...


Well, while "our dogs can do IPO" it isn't as easy peasy as many think.
Here is what is involved besides 'hanging on a sleeve":
Trialing in a downpour


Jumping with athletic agility

courage test and then transporting with clear headed balanced thinking



Waiting for the critique, even after you failed tracking...yet your dog can track well and you know it. And that protection phase just kicked ass, even though you know it won't count because, failed tracking!



So, yea, easy to do IPO. a walk in the park


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah well it doesn't feel good when you have to post pictures to show that your dogs are not monsters just as i feel I have to post my photos of my showlines dogs are not crippled sniveling worthless couch potatoes doing an injustice to the breed by wanting them. The line bashing to me is such a waste of energy and time and really really crazy but people are shoved in a corner and I can see what happens. There is so much great information on this forum but yes, incredibly often ,agendas get pushed on this forum if someone is having an issue and its a showline dog. 
Having all lines none are perfect but all were great dogs. I don't see why breeders who want to mix another line into their line to get what they are looking for is an issue either. People need to do their own research and need to know what they are looking for in a dog and I hope they find professionals that can steer them right without bashing it can be done it has been done on this forum also.

I also have a puppy with Zamp in her pedigree a really nice puppy. I had not ever owned a dog with owner/family aggression issues.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

sebrench said:


> I don't want to get in the middle of a working line vs SL debate. I've had both, and I've loved both, and I've never had a perfect dog. I believe there is no perfect dog. You just need to find the right fit for each person/family. And, of course, having access to an experienced and excellent breeder, whatever the line, helps tremendously.
> 
> My WGSL has Zamp on his mother's side of the pedigree. He's a great family dog, wonderful with the baby, protective of house and yard, very intelligent and trainable, yet stable around guests and out in public. If I had wanted to do protection work, I'd have chosen a breeder who specializes in protection work. I think Asher would be good at tracking and advanced obedience, but I don't have the time or opportunity right now to back that up with anything other than my intuition/opinion.
> 
> ...




Thank you so much for your kind words  We are still waiting for our appointment with the behaviorist to see what she thinks. The vet recommended working with her before moving on to brain scans. I just hope that whatever it ends up being is something fixable, or at least manageable. Right now, 95% of the time he is a really, really awesome, well behaved, and funny 9 m/o dog, but man those other 5% are really throwing us for a loop. 

I started this thread because I am genuinely interested in how much of his temperament is genetic. While it's nice to think maybe it isn't our fault that he is the way he is, at the same time, if it is because of something we have done, I feel like that could totally be fixable. Our trainer, who is very experienced, is in the genetic boat. We will have to see what the behaviorist thinks now. Thank you for the encouragement.

Also, I'm so sorry, I really didn't mean to start an war between the lines!


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

selzer said:


> It is also true that a nervous, unsettled dam will imprint that on her puppies. Once the puppies reach 2-3 weeks and they are interacting with their dam and littermates, beyond being a little sucker, and their ears and eyes are open, all their confidence is coming from the dam/litter. If she is constantly freaking out at every noise, at every person she sees, if dogs are allowed to wander in and she rushes forth to chase them out, then the puppies are going to learn some really bad behaviors, and that learning, done during the period in the whelping box, that is like concrete learning. It is good or bad. It is very difficult to iron out of a dog.



This is really interesting and something I didn't think about so much before. I knew of course that the breeder's interactions with the pups in these formative weeks are really important, and I watched some of the Jane Killion Puppy Culture videos about it before we got Klaus, but I guess I stupidly didn't think as much about the mother's effect. Klaus' mom was a bit protective over he puppies during the times we came to meet them before we got him - not towards the breeder or his family, but she would bark when we walked near her outdoor run where she was with the female puppies while we met the males. The breeder explained that it was her first litter, and she has always been friendly to us the other times we met her, so I didn't think much about it, but I wonder how much he behavior affected them. :/

Another lesson learned, I guess.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Telavivgsd- sounds like it can very well be genetics. I think it doesn't take much but any opportunity seems to be a debate about lines. Glad you are doing all you can with your boy.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

telavivgsd said:


> I just hope that whatever it ends up being is something fixable, or at least manageable. Right now, 95% of the time he is a really, really awesome, well behaved, and funny 9 m/o dog, but man those other 5% are really throwing us for a loop.
> 
> I started this thread because I am genuinely interested in how much of his temperament is genetic. While it's nice to think maybe it isn't our fault that he is the way he is, at the same time, if it is because of something we have done, I feel like that could totally be fixable. Our trainer, who is very experienced, is in the genetic boat. We will have to see what the behaviorist thinks now. Thank you for the encouragement.
> 
> Also, I'm so sorry, I really didn't mean to start an war between the lines!


For what it's worth, and I'm no expert, but I don't think it's your fault. It sounds like you have done lots of work and training with him. But that doesn't mean the issue is not fixable or manageable. I hope the behaviorist has some additional insight to help!


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

sebrench said:


> For what it's worth, and I'm no expert, but I don't think it's your fault. It sounds like you have done lots of work and training with him. But that doesn't mean the issue is not fixable or manageable. I hope the behaviorist has some additional insight to help!




Thank you very much - I really hope so too!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the imprint begins before the pups are born.

quote "It is also true that a nervous, unsettled dam will imprint that on her puppies"

when the dam is stressed, frightened , anxious , there changes , respiration, heart beat , adrenal and other hormones which the pups are bathed in.

now , because of mind - gut research , there are changes in gut flora , which affect the pups endowment upon birth - so they will tend to be delicate in immune , digestive and eliminative health.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

carmspack said:


> the imprint begins before the pups are born.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's really interesting. It makes sense, it's just not something I had thought much about temperament wise. Health wise I can understand the diet and exposure to toxins during pregnancy would have an effect of course, but what you say about the hormones is also logical.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> If the people that know nothing about working lines would not comment on working lines and the people that know nothing about show lines would not comment on show lines, people might actually learn something.


But things would be so boring then. :surprise:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

carmspack said:


> the imprint begins before the pups are born.
> 
> quote "It is also true that a nervous, unsettled dam will imprint that on her puppies"
> 
> ...


Can we discuss this in a thread of its own? You just explained half of Shadow.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Knowing about Showlines.....lol, for six years I was member of one of the most successful SL IPO club in the country. The training director owned and titled SL dogs and also competed in USA Seiger show every year. The President of the club had SL dog. We had dogs from Henkel, Mittelwest, Kirschental, Haus Dexel, and other SL breeders. Obviously, I helped train these dogs in all three phases. most years I went to either USA Seiger show or WDA Seiger show. In my Sunday training class of past 5 years, I also have had SL dogs in class both GSL and ASL. The SL dog my nephew had on Westminster broadcast, I acquired for him out of Germany and 2x Seiger. So when I give advice on SL dogs and their temperament, and training, maaaaaybe I do know a little more than some posters insinuate. I seldom if ever, comment on things I don't have first hand knowledge of:grin2:.
Telavid, I think you should continue to work with a trainer where you can have your dog better understand boundaries and undo some of the honest mishaps ( like showing fear in certain instances) that I think have contributed to his behavior. Just my opinion. Good Luck!


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Knowing about Showlines.....lol, for six years I was member of one of the most successful SL IPO club in the country. The training director owned and titled SL dogs and also competed in USA Seiger show every year. The President of the club had SL dog. We had dogs from Henkel, Mittelwest, Kirschental, Haus Dexel, and other SL breeders. Obviously, I helped train these dogs in all three phases. most years I went to either USA Seiger show or WDA Seiger show. In my Sunday training class of past 5 years, I also have had SL dogs in class both GSL and ASL. The SL dog my nephew had on Westminster broadcast, I acquired for him out of Germany and 2x Seiger. So when I give advice on SL dogs and their temperament, and training, maaaaaybe I do know a little more than some posters insinuate. I seldom if ever, comment on things I don't have first hand knowledge of:grin2:.
> 
> Telavid, I think you should continue to work with a trainer where you can have your dog better understand boundaries and undo some of the honest mishaps ( like showing fear in certain instances) that I think have contributed to his behavior. Just my opinion. Good Luck!




Thank you! We will definitely continue to work with our trainer.


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