# Breeder refuses to DM test Dam Sire



## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Hello, 

I am interested in getting a puppy from a particular breeder. His dogs are beautiful and has amazing temperament. All dogs are raised inside the house. He does HD/ ED tests for his dogs. He does not do DM testing on his dogs since he believes the test is not 100% accurate and he doesn't trust it. He seems to be a really knowledgeable and responsible breeder. Would you guys recommend getting a pup with parents never tested for DM?

Thanks!


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Yes. There is no proof the test is accurate and being the test has been avail a few years maybe longer, it usually affect older dogs so dogs tested are still too young to show symptoms. Right now necropsy is the only way to know if dog had DM.
Breeders doing this test is good and really not expensive but the jury is still out.
My boy parents were not tested and I had Ozzy tested and yes he is at high risk.
Breeder did not test his parents until after they did a repeat breeding. Both parents carriers. Now will Ozzy get DM I have no clue I sure hope not because my old girl had all the symptoms and was put down at 11 due to not being able to use back legs.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Yes. There is no proof the test is accurate and being the test has been avail a few years maybe longer, it usually affect older dogs so dogs tested are still too young to show symptoms. Right now necropsy is the only way to know if dog had DM.
> Breeders doing this test is good and really not expensive but the jury is still out.
> My boy parents were not tested and I had Ozzy tested and yes he is at high risk.
> Breeder did not test his parents until after they did a repeat breeding. Both parents carriers. Now will Ozzy get DM I have no clue I sure hope not because my old girl had all the symptoms and was put down at 11 due to not being able to use back legs.


Forgot to add, until DM testing can be proven it works I will not pass on a breeder who does not test for it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

why wouldn't you test for one of the most heartbreaking, dibilitating problems in the breed??? It is less than $100 per dog and even if there is not yet enough data for people to be "sure" - it is a far far far better option than guess work! It is a tool that every conscientious breeder should utilitze .....I have used a carrier with a clear..most of the dogs I have had that were tested were clear....in 5 generations of the same female family there has not been a single dog with DM. I certainly would not buy a pup from untested parents.

Lee


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

wolfstraum said:


> why wouldn't you test for one of the most heartbreaking, dibilitating problems in the breed??? It is less than $100 per dog and even if there is not yet enough data for people to be "sure" - it is a far far far better option than guess work! It is a tool that every conscientious breeder should utilitze .....I have used a carrier with a clear..most of the dogs I have had that were tested were clear....in 5 generations of the same female family there has not been a single dog with DM. I certainly would not buy a pup from untested parents.
> 
> Lee


I even offered to pay half of the expenses for DM testing sire and dam. It is shame that I have to think about getting a puppy from this breeder when I liked literally everything about his dogs other than this fairly inexpensive testing that has to done. SMH


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have mixed feelings about the test. A good breeder knows if any of their dogs get DM and the tests are not 100%. Still, the dogs I looked at were all DM clear.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have mixed feelings about the test. A good breeder knows if any of their dogs get DM and the tests are not 100%. Still, the dogs I looked at were all DM clear.


How will a breeder know without any tests? His breeding males and females are 4 to 5 years old, he won't see DM symptoms in young dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hard NO for me. The test is cheap, and the excuse invalid. My view is that any breeder who balks at something that costs less then a dog bed probably knows the answer. The failure rate on the test is far lower then the acceptable failure rate for any human testing, so I am not clear why breeders are so determined that it's flawed.
@BigOzzy2018, that sucks


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

the DM test is a tool. It's all we have right now. I don't know if I would buy a dog from breeding stock that isn't DM tested. It might depend on the dog itself but if it's that important to you then move on. There are other breeders.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

There are a lot of misconceptions about the DM test. Perhaps share this article with him.









Misconceptions About Canine Degenerative Myelopathy


If there is anything that I have learned in Paw Print Genetics’ quest to prevent canine inherited diseases, it is that degenerative myelopathy (DM) is one of the most misunderstood diseases in the dog breeding community. This late-onset, progressive neurological disease is notorious for cutting...




www.pawprintgenetics.com


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Absolutely not. We lost Halo at 9-1/2 to DM. Watching her go from an athlete ( she was my flyball racer) to an invalid was devastating. She was born in 2008 so the test was very new and not many breeders were using it back then. Now, testing is more widespread. Is it 100% accurate? I have no idea. But it’s all we’ve got and i think it’s irresponsible not to use it.

My current girl is from 2 DM clear parents. I would consider a puppy from a litter where one parent was clear, because assuming accuracy, that means at worst, some of the litter would be carriers. Not an issue if you don’t plan to breed. But 2 untested parents? No way.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Thing that makes me surprise and think a lot is this breeder has amazing reviews and thousands following on his official facebook page, yet no one is concerned about this horrible disease testing as I am? Im assuming most of his customers has young dogs so DM is not a issue? He even refused to do the test when I said I'll cover half the costs. He must be either very confident about his dogs or hiding something, which I doubt since he was very straight forward about everything. But this is not a chance that I'm willing to take.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NinjaZx6r said:


> Thing that makes me surprise and think a lot is this breeder has amazing reviews and thousands following on his official facebook page, yet no one is concerned about this horrible disease testing as I am? Im assuming most of his customers has young dogs so DM is not a issue? He even refused to do the test when I said I'll cover half the costs. He must be either very confident about his dogs or hiding something, which I doubt since he was very straight forward about everything. But this is not a chance that I'm willing to take.


I brought Sabi home at 7 weeks on 1st March of 2001. In summer 2002 she completed training and certification and joined me on patrol every night. I retired her briefly in 2008 and she hated it, so I put her back to work. In early 2011 she fell getting into the patrol car. I took her to get checked out and THAT was the first time I heard about DM.
For 9 years that dog got me home safe every night. She was commended by local PD, called to help out RCMP and adored by every client she worked with.
I watched her go from my fearless, flawless partner to a sad shell of herself. She hated being left home. She despised needing help to stand. On October 10th, 2013 we took one last drive.
There is no excuse.
There is a thought in some circles that the disease is late onset, and painless so it doesn't matter. Personally I don't want to support a breeder with that mindset.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

OP, have you tried researching the status of the grandparents or other related dogs that you are interested in from this breeder? 

Also, look for cleared by parentage on the OFA website: "That means that if both *parents* have been DNA tested *clear* for a disease, *OFA* will declare offspring *clear* by virtue of the fact that the *parents* tested *clear*. ... *OFA* will only *clear by parentage* for one generation, due to the possibility of new mutations or as yet undiscovered gene mutations."

Also keep in mind that there can be false positives and false negatives. 

I might be mistaken but I believe that the problem with DM testing is that it looks for markers found in a different breed of dog with a different mutation of DM.

N/N (normal/normal) dogs have still developed DM, carriers of one gene have developed DM, dogs thst are at risk have not developed DM.

I would buy a dog without DM clearance. There are worse things.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

We much too recently lost a dog to DM. I would not buy another without the parents being tested. Even though the test may not be 100% accurate, and nothing can be, I would at least want to stack the deck in favor of not having my dog and family go through this horrible disease again.

By the way, our dog tested as a carrier, but still got what we and our vet believed was DM. So I'm well aware that there are flaws in the test. I would not buy any pup that didn't have both parents test as clear.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP, have you tried researching the status of the grandparents or other related dogs that you are interested in from this breeder?
> 
> Also, look for cleared by parentage on the OFA website: "That means that if both *parents* have been DNA tested *clear* for a disease, *OFA* will declare offspring *clear* by virtue of the fact that the *parents* tested *clear*. ... *OFA* will only *clear by parentage* for one generation, due to the possibility of new mutations or as yet undiscovered gene mutations."
> 
> ...


All his dogs are imported from germany including dam and sire. He just did HD/ ED and have SV standards. He said no breeder in germany test for DM since they are not accurate. How can I check dogs dogs pedigree if they are SV registered? Dam and Sire are AKC registered but I dont find anything about the tests when I search on OFA.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Pawsed said:


> We much too recently lost a dog to DM. I would not buy another without the parents being tested. Even though the test may not be 100% accurate, and nothing can be, I would at least want to stack the deck in favor of not having my dog and family go through this horrible disease again.
> 
> By the way, our dog tested as a carrier, but still got what we and our vet believed was DM. So I'm well aware that there are flaws in the test. I would not buy any pup that didn't have both parents test as clear.


I am so sorry for your loss. We just lost a very young GSD for a genetic heart condition, which is why I am doing as much research as possible before I put deposit on a new puppy.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I brought Sabi home at 7 weeks on 1st March of 2001. In summer 2002 she completed training and certification and joined me on patrol every night. I retired her briefly in 2008 and she hated it, so I put her back to work. In early 2011 she fell getting into the patrol car. I took her to get checked out and THAT was the first time I heard about DM.
> For 9 years that dog got me home safe every night. She was commended by local PD, called to help out RCMP and adored by every client she worked with.
> I watched her go from my fearless, flawless partner to a sad shell of herself. She hated being left home. She despised needing help to stand. On October 10th, 2013 we took one last drive.
> There is no excuse.
> There is a thought in some circles that the disease is late onset, and painless so it doesn't matter. Personally I don't want to support a breeder with that mindset.


I am so sorry for you fur-baby. It is heart breaking seeing dogs suffering when the some diseases that can be avoided in breeding. I totally understand why breeder doesnt want to DM test his dogs but just I dont agree with him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Tests can be done thru OFA or thru other places like Embark. ONLY OFA tests will show up in the database. 

Any dog you are buying here should have an AKC registration. AKC will issue a registration to an imported dog. The breeder should be able to provide that pedigree.

There are databases for Germany





Qvido Vepeden


Både for Gule og Grå - schaeferhunden.eu




schaeferhunden.eu









SV-Datenbank -







www.sv-doxs.net





But really - either you trust the breeder or you don't. Either they provide the information you ask for or they don't. You said this breeder was in Halifax, PA?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It says more about the breeder than the test itself. The test might not be fool proof but as a breeder you at least tried to rule it out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Contact Shahbaz. Super nice guy and nice dogs.








Shahbaz Khan


Shahbaz Khan есть на Facebook. Присоединяйтесь к Facebook, чтобы связаться с Shahbaz Khan и найти других друзей. Facebook предоставляет возможность делиться новостями и делает мир более открытым и...




www.facebook.com


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Hard NO for me. The test is cheap, and the excuse invalid. My view is that any breeder who balks at something that costs less then a dog bed probably knows the answer. The failure rate on the test is far lower then the acceptable failure rate for any human testing, so I am not clear why breeders are so determined that it's flawed.
> @BigOzzy2018, that sucks


Yes it sucks but like I said no proof my dog will get DM not proof he won’t. 
Are breeders who test going to guarantee said pup won’t get DM? Are they going to replace said dog when they get it at an older age? I highly doubt it.
Until this test is proven I will still say what I said in my post.
I’ve also had people say they would breed to a high risk dog If female was clear. So go figure.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Tests can be done thru OFA or thru other places like Embark. ONLY OFA tests will show up in the database.
> 
> Any dog you are buying here should have an AKC registration. AKC will issue a registration to an imported dog. The breeder should be able to provide that pedigree.
> 
> ...


Yes, I have AKC# and pedigree for both dam and sire. But I dont see DM tests or their health anyway. Only thing I see is HD/ED.

I do trust the breeder, he is not lying. he is just saying he wont do it since test is not 100% accurate. But I like to visually see stuff then believe on word.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Pawsed said:


> We much too recently lost a dog to DM. I would not buy another without the parents being tested. Even though the test may not be 100% accurate, and nothing can be, I would at least want to stack the deck in favor of not having my dog and family go through this horrible disease again.
> 
> By the way, our dog tested as a carrier, but still got what we and our vet believed was DM. So I'm well aware that there are flaws in the test. I would not buy any pup that didn't have both parents test as clear.


Are u guessing he had DM or was it proven by necropsy? I know the feeling losing a dog to possible DM. It sucks


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Tests can be done thru OFA or thru other places like Embark. ONLY OFA tests will show up in the database.
> 
> Any dog you are buying here should have an AKC registration. AKC will issue a registration to an imported dog. The breeder should be able to provide that pedigree.
> 
> ...


thanks for the links, I am able to find the Dam and his parents on the search but nothing shows about DM tests, all I see is titles and HD/ED


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Yes it sucks but like I said no proof my dog will get DM not proof he won’t.
> Are breeders who test going to guarantee said pup won’t get DM? Are they going to replace said dog when they get it at an older age? I highly doubt it.
> Until this test is proven I will still say what I said in my post.
> I’ve also had people say they would breed to a high risk dog If female was clear. So go figure.


The point isn't to replace the pups or provide a guarantee, it's that with judicious and careful breeding using the information we could breed it out in relatively short order AND save valuable genetics.
At risk implies that if the dog lives long enough symptoms will appear. The issue comes about because it is late onset. There is a very real chance that something else will get there first. This has led to a belief that At risk only means maybe, it doesn't.
Because the research is new there are some holes, there have been carriers that for whatever reason developed the disease. The belief is that some other genetic factor allows for that.
Cancer screening in humans isn't 100%, but no one is suggesting that we don't do it.
From the bottom of my heart I hope that you and the Oz Man have many, many years together.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

IMO, breeders can't be single issue breeders. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Good health is very important. A working conformation is very important. Proper temperament is critical.

Nobody wants a healthy dog with good conformation that has a lousy temperament. If you eliminate all carrier or at risk dogs from the gene pool, a massive genetic bottle neck would be created no different than eliminating all dogs that don't OFA excellent. 

Breeders have to breed for the whole dog and sometimes that involves risks in order to preserve other critical traits.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> IMO, breeders can't be single issue breeders. You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Good health is very important. A working conformation is very important. Proper temperament is critical.
> 
> Nobody wants a healthy dog with good conformation that has a lousy temperament. If you eliminate all carrier or at risk dogs from the gene pool, a massive genetic bottle neck would be created no different than eliminating all dogs that don't OFA excellent.
> 
> Breeders have to breed for the whole dog and sometimes that involves risks in order to preserve other critical traits.


Exactly. Dogs are being bred with fair hips and for me that is fine but the breeder better make sure the bitch or stud is ofa Goo or better as well as rest of the dogs in both pedigrees. 
Ozzy has an impeccable temperament but has skin issues why, still don’t know. Hips and elbows good and normal. DM A/A parents were not tested by breeder. I tested him myself. I told breeder and they still did a repeat breeding. Finally had parents tested and Both dog were carriers.

I pray Ozzy does not get DM but dogs that have been tested and are clear produced at risk puppies.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> The point isn't to replace the pups or provide a guarantee, it's that with judicious and careful breeding using the information we could breed it out in relatively short order AND save valuable genetics.
> At risk implies that if the dog lives long enough symptoms will appear. The issue comes about because it is late onset. There is a very real chance that something else will get there first. This has led to a belief that At risk only means maybe, it doesn't.
> Because the research is new there are some holes, there have been carriers that for whatever reason developed the disease. The belief is that some other genetic factor allows for that.
> Cancer screening in humans isn't 100%, but no one is suggesting that we don't do it.
> From the bottom of my heart I hope that you and the Oz Man have many, many years together.


Me too, but I would not pass on an excellent reputable breeder who doesn’t test for it. Germany doesn’t test either. I never said the test was useless it’s just still too early to know if it works.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

A reputable breeder locally referred me to a another good breeder in Idaho. Infact couple of her breeding females came from idaho breeder. She tests all are dogs with Hips, elbows, DM, heart. All her dogs are DM clear. She said she ship puppies all the time and it is super easy and safe for the puppy. I will look into this breeder. 

I am walking away from the breeder that refused to DM test his dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NinjaZx6r said:


> A reputable breeder locally referred me to a another good breeder in Idaho. Infact couple of her breeding females came from idaho breeder. She tests all are dogs with Hips, elbows, DM, heart. All her dogs are DM clear. She said she ship puppies all the time and it is super easy and safe for the puppy. I will look into this breeder.
> 
> I am walking away from the breeder that refused to DM test his dogs.


That's fantastic but do they title their dogs to test for breedworthyness? All the health clearances in the world won't compensate for a fearful, timid, shy or otherwise unstable dog.

What is the breeder's goals with their litters?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would buy a dog without DM clearance. There are worse things.


Have you had a dog with DM? I have. Maybe if she had been 12 or 13 when she started showing signs of the disease I'd feel differently, but Halo was still very much in her prime at 8 when I had to retire her from flyball, and she still should have been racing at 9-1/2 when we let her go. She'd been mostly paralyzed for some time by then. It was horrible to watch a vibrant, athletic dog turn into an invalid. It's something I never want to experience again.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you had a dog with DM? I have. Maybe if she had been 12 or 13 when she started showing signs of the disease I'd feel differently, but Halo was still very much in her prime at 8 when I had to retire her from flyball, and she still should have been racing at 9-1/2 when we let her go. She'd been mostly paralyzed for some time by then. It was horrible to watch a vibrant, athletic dog turn into an invalid. It's something I never want to experience again.


Right there with you. And Sabs was nearly 13, almost 11 when symptoms started, still sharp as a tack. It was a rotten way for a great dog to go out. And no loving owner should have to go through it


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NinjaZx6r said:


> A reputable breeder locally referred me to a another good breeder in Idaho. Infact couple of her breeding females came from idaho breeder. She tests all are dogs with Hips, elbows, DM, heart. All her dogs are DM clear. She said she ship puppies all the time and it is super easy and safe for the puppy. I will look into this breeder.
> 
> I am walking away from the breeder that refused to DM test his dogs.


I think that's great. I'm happy for you. I think folks that have never experienced DM don't really understand. And I think a segment of the sport/show community figure a dogs done by 10 anyway so it doesn't matter. If you want to message me the breeders name I would love to know. I keep a list of breeders who do test for folks who want to know.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I think that's great. I'm happy for you. I think folks that have never experienced DM don't really understand. And I think a segment of the sport/show community figure a dogs done by 10 anyway so it doesn't matter. If you want to message me the breeders name I would love to know. I keep a list of breeders who do test for folks who want to know.


Right, I think breeders perspective is different than a average pet owners. Breeder like/ prefers to retire a breeding dog and may be send it to a forever home. they do that well before the age when DM symptoms usually show up. But for someone like who is a typical average owner I will have that dog till end of its life and it is obvious that we hope to have the dog for its full healthy life. I dont blame breeder or owner in this case. Everybody has to do what they think is right for them.

I sent you a PM with breeders info.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

A


MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's fantastic but do they title their dogs to test for breedworthyness? All the health clearances in the world won't compensate for a fearful, timid, shy or otherwise unstable dog.
> 
> What is the breeder's goals with their litters?


All her dogs are imported. She sent me pictures of pedigree, DNA test results. HD/ED are done in czech republic and poland and both has A stamp. DM is done in USA and both have clear. All her dogs come from pedigree with IOP and SCHH titles. She doesn't do IPO with her dogs since that is not what she bred dogs for. This is her goal as per her website

Here at *** Shepherds our main goal is to provide families with the "perfect" pet. We want to give people a dog that not only can be a great family companion but could also compete in the show ring, herding, working and/or obedience ring. All of our dogs come from titled working dogs. Although we do not do SchH work with our dogs, because that is not what we like to do, they do have the ability to do it. We focus our attention on breeding dogs that make amazing family companions and that are loving and easy to train along with having supreme beauty.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you had a dog with DM? I have. Maybe if she had been 12 or 13 when she started showing signs of the disease I'd feel differently, but Halo was still very much in her prime at 8 when I had to retire her from flyball, and she still should have been racing at 9-1/2 when we let her go. She'd been mostly paralyzed for some time by then. It was horrible to watch a vibrant, athletic dog turn into an invalid. It's something I never want to experience again.


Despite purchasing numerous dogs from untested parents I have never had a DM dog. However, I had a dog develop an incurable cancer at age 8 and live only one more year with expensive treatment. The vets stated that the type of cancer that he had, although common in some breeds, was quite rare in German Shepherds and they felt it was of an hereditary nature. The morning of his last day, the cancer had reached his brain. He was completely paralyzed except for his eyes. Now that is something that I never want to go through again. The GSD lifespan is now 8 -11 years. I consider myself blessed if I get a healthy 8 years. Six of one, half dozen of the other.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NinjaZx6r said:


> A
> 
> All her dogs are imported. She sent me pictures of pedigree, DNA test results. HD/ED are done in czech republic and poland and both has A stamp. DM is done in USA and both have clear. All her dogs come from pedigree with IOP and SCHH titles. She doesn't do IPO with her dogs since that is not what she bred dogs for. This is her goal as per her website
> 
> Here at *** Shepherds our main goal is to provide families with the "perfect" pet. We want to give people a dog that not only can be a great family companion but could also compete in the show ring, herding, working and/or obedience ring. All of our dogs come from titled working dogs. Although we do not do SchH work with our dogs, because that is not what we like to do, they do have the ability to do it. We focus our attention on breeding dogs that make amazing family companions and that are loving and easy to train along with having supreme beauty.


As soon as I see someone breeding for pets, I would run. That tells me that they are not breeding to the standard. "Pet" is subjective and temperaments can be all over the place. What makes a good pet for me does not mean it would be a good pet for you or for the breeder or anyone else.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I’m 


Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you had a dog with DM? I have. Maybe if she had been 12 or 13 when she started showing signs of the disease I'd feel differently, but Halo was still very much in her prime at 8 when I had to retire her from flyball, and she still should have been racing at 9-1/2 when we let her go. She'd been mostly paralyzed for some time by then. It was horrible to watch a vibrant, athletic dog turn into an invalid. It's something I never want to experience again.


sorry for your loss and I’ve been there myself but I have to ask how do you know your dog had DM or just guessing because of symptoms?


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

I don't understand why ALL reputable breeders don't test for DM. But I've found a lot don't either. Very sad. I lost one to DM also. It was heartbreaking.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We know because the extensive testing we had done ruled out anything else that could have caused her symptoms. A DM test came back with two copies of the abnormal gene - at risk for developing DM. 

She was examined by two orthopedic surgeons, had x-rays of her spine, hips, and knee, a nerve study of the left rear leg, where she first started showing symptoms (at first we thought it might be an injury) she was examined by a neurologist, and had an MRI which was reviewed by both ortho docs and another neurologist.



BigOzzy2018 said:


> I’m sorry for your loss and I’ve been there myself but I have to ask how do you know your dog had DM or just guessing because of symptoms?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Yes. There is no proof the test is accurate and being the test has been avail a few years maybe longer, it usually affect older dogs so dogs tested are still too young to show symptoms. Right now necropsy is the only way to know if dog had DM.
> Breeders doing this test is good and really not expensive but the jury is still out.
> My boy parents were not tested and I had Ozzy tested and yes he is at high risk.
> Breeder did not test his parents until after they did a repeat breeding. Both parents carriers. Now will Ozzy get DM I have no clue I sure hope not because my old girl had all the symptoms and was put down at 11 due to not being able to use back legs.


From what I understand the test is accurate as in they have identified a gene that is one of the factors in DM. There do seem to be other genes at play that may affect it but that gene is definitely a part of it. 

The innacurate part would only be if there happened to be a false negative or a false positive which is a possibility in any sort of testing.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> We know because the extensive testing we had done ruled out anything else that could have caused her symptoms. A DM test came back with two copies of the abnormal gene - at risk for developing DM.
> 
> She was examined by two orthopedic surgeons, had x-rays of her spine, hips, and knee, a nerve study of the left rear leg, where she first started showing symptoms (at first we thought it might be an injury) she was examined by a neurologist, and had an MRI which was reviewed by both ortho docs and another neurologist.


Thanks for the info but I was told that a diagnosis of DM can only be proven in a necropsy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Thanks for the info but I was told that a diagnosis of DM can only be proven in a necropsy.


A presumptive diagnosis can also be made with high accuracy by an MRI. Anything with the same symptoms would be seen on an MRI, and if all of those are ruled out, DM is all that’s left.

The first neurologist actually wasn’t sure after her examination. Her assessment was that if it did not progress, it’s not DM. If it does, it is DM. It started to progress to the other leg very shortly after that.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

If it’s a specific pairing that you feel is absolutely the right litter for you, nothing else available is better suited for you, you could offer to pay for the tests for all the males or female puppies (whichever gender you’re on the list for). 
If the breeder thinks the results have no value he can disregard them anyway. But you could decline to purchase a puppy with 2 abnormal copies of the gene. 

At the end of the day even if you’re paying for testing of 4-6 puppies, at least you’d have facts to base your decision on.

Looking at your new puppy and wondering if it’s a ticking time bomb of heartache *that could have been avoided* will drain some of the joy out. You already have doubts - this thread is proof.

Diagnosing degenerative diseases and mobility problems in our old dogs is miserable and sad.


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> If it’s a specific pairing that you feel is absolutely the right litter for you, nothing else available is better suited for you, you could offer to pay for the tests for all the males or female puppies (whichever gender you’re on the list for).
> If the breeder thinks the results have no value he can disregard them anyway. But you could decline to purchase a puppy with 2 abnormal copies of the gene.
> 
> At the end of the day even if you’re paying for testing of 4-6 puppies, at least you’d have facts to base your decision on.
> ...


I offered to pay for DM tests for both parents of the litter, I told him I will only put deposit if both are DM clear. He refused it since he dont trust the test.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

If your opinions on health tests don’t align with that particular breeder, it seems sensible to choose a different breeder.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

NinjaZx6r said:


> I offered to pay for DM tests for both parents of the litter, I told him I will only put deposit if both are DM clear. He refused it since he dont trust the test.


I checked. Literally the only dogs he does not have DM results listed for are those two and one other female. That is highly suspect. Glad you moved on. 
As far as two parents clear, one clear is probably safe. Puppies need two copies to be affected. One from each parent. Remember also that any pup you bring home can be tested first.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> I checked. Literally the only dogs he does not have DM results listed for are those two and one other female. That is highly suspect. Glad you moved on.
> As far as two parents clear, one clear is probably safe. Puppies need two copies to be affected. One from each parent. Remember also that any pup you bring home can be tested first.


OP you're doing the right thing by moving on IMO......the fact that he wouldn't test EVEN when you offered to pay says every thing you need to know about this breeder....I lived through DM with Shane and I don't want to do that again...there were no specific tests for DM back then but by x-rays and an MRI...things that could mimic DM were eliminated ...the only thing left was DM and watching it start at his tail and move forward isn't something I ever want one of mine to go through again.......so the DM test for parents isn't 100% accurate....so what???... many tests for humans and canines AREN'T 100% ....to me it's a useful tool to help a puppy buyer make a "educated and wiser" decision.....if breeders don't make the effort to breed DM out of GSDs ... it will become just as important as asking to see OFA papers..followed by the question "have the parents been DM tested ?"


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## firefighterw (Feb 12, 2020)

I would never buy a dog from a breeder that refused to test for DM. Even if the dogs _don't_ carry, what sort of message is this sending about the breeder that he won't (not hasn't, but _won't_) do it? Not a good one imo.

I asked for DM results on the puppy's parents I have a current deposit on, and got them nearly instantaneously. No fuss, no mess, just straight up responsive to my request.

Anything else would've been a red flag for me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I can probably find breeders that haven't or don't test. The refusal is a huge red flag. Especially in light of the other dogs being tested. He either knows or suspects the answer. 
I found a breeder in Canada who said he had never heard of DM. But was absolutely on board with testing prior to selling me a pup.


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## firefighterw (Feb 12, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I can probably find breeders that haven't or don't test. The refusal is a huge red flag. Especially in light of the other dogs being tested. He either knows or suspects the answer.
> I found a breeder in Canada who said he had never heard of DM. But was absolutely on board with testing prior to selling me a pup.


I feel like a breeder not knowing what DM was would be a red flag to me too.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My understanding is that offspring whose parents are both DM clear, are clear by parentage. But, if that were the case here, the breeder would share that info with you readily. If they don't/didn't chances are that IS NOT THE CASE! Walk away, find a better breeder!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

firefighterw said:


> I feel like a breeder not knowing what DM was would be a red flag to me too.


Huge. Especially since he claimed his wife was a vet tech. Lol.
But hey, at least he was willing to test.


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## John T24 (Oct 19, 2019)

I've had 2 shepherds with DM over the years.

our new puppy came from both parents DM clear. 
it makes me feel better.... even if there are concerns with the test. 

and yes, I would stay away from any breeder that does not test.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

NinjaZx6r said:


> I am so sorry for your loss. We just lost a very young GSD for a genetic heart condition, which is why I am doing as much research as possible before I put deposit on a new puppy.


Heart defect can be a birth defect. Sometimes nothing was done wrong, it just happened. 

I think I know which breeder you are speaking of and I dont see OFA tesing either, yet the website says OFA GOOD. Phoenix only has hips done, no elbows. And there used to be a way to look up the SV hips, it may be member only now though. You can also sign up on AKC website for an account, look up dog titles as well, but ofcourse, only AKC titles. Sometimes a simple google search can be very revealing. Search a dogs name, a registration number, owners name, etc. You can also check with AKC to see if the breeder is in good standing and will be able to register pups or not. OFA and I assume SV would send paperwork with results of testing, ASK FOR PROOF.


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## tropicalgirl72 (Jun 20, 2018)

NinjaZx6r said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am interested in getting a puppy from a particular breeder. His dogs are beautiful and has amazing temperament. All dogs are raised inside the house. He does HD/ ED tests for his dogs. He does not do DM testing on his dogs since he believes the test is not 100% accurate and he doesn't trust it. He seems to be a really knowledgeable and responsible breeder. Would you guys recommend getting a pup with parents never tested for DM?
> 
> Thanks!


Hi there,
According to all the doctors I’ve seen, there is no test to tell if a dog actually does have dm. However there’s a dna test that can help determine if dogs are at risk. In my opinion, a responsible breeder should test to see if their dogs are at risk of passing this horrible disease down the line. My dog is showing symptoms of dm so we tested her. She’s very high risk. This is truly heartbreaking and if I were a breeder, I would test to see if my dogs were at risk of passing this disease on. If they were then I would not breed them. Save families from this heartbreak that we’re going through. 

I copied and pasted this info below from pethealthnetwork.com. Hope this helps


“Genetic testing for degenerative myelopathy
Testing is available to determine an individual dog’s SOD1 mutation status. This test is available through the _Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA)_. All that is required is a blood sample or cheek swab. 

This DNA test identifies dogs that are normal (have two normal copies of the gene), those who are carriers (have one normal copy of the gene and one mutated copy), and those who are at risk for development of DM (have two mutated copies of the gene). It is important to remember that DNA testing does not diagnose DM. This is because not all dogs with two mutated copies of the gene go on to develop DM. 

Responsible breeders utilize DNA testing for DM to help assess whether or not a particular dog is suitable for breeding purposes. If contemplating purchasing a pup of an at-risk breed, it is important to request DM test results for the dam and sire of the litter of interest. It is also reasonable to have the puppy tested prior to purchase, although, if the parents have been tested and have “normal” results, this is unnecessary.” Pethealthnetwork.com


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## NinjaZx6r (Mar 5, 2020)

Thank you everyone for answering all my questions and advices. I was able to find a good breeder that does all the testings I need and show and title all her dogs actively. I attached picture of my pup 
Rado AltaTollhaus. He is 11 weeks now and we brought him home when he was 8 weeks.


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## gogo (Sep 7, 2008)

She's adorable!! So glad you picked a breeder that does testing


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## Seward Park (Mar 26, 2020)

I would not. I helped care for a Boxer with DM and watching him deteriorate was devastating.


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## willquan22 (Dec 28, 2015)

NinjaZx6r said:


> Thank you everyone for answering all my questions and advices. I was able to find a good breeder that does all the testings I need and show and title all her dogs actively. I attached picture of my pup
> Rado AltaTollhaus. He is 11 weeks now and we brought him home when he was 8 weeks.
> View attachment 558998
> View attachment 558999


Would be willing to share your breeder? My GSD died a few months ago at only 7 due to cancer and im ready to Start looking again. Really followed your thread and agree I’d want all the tests done and competes/trains in show. I’m also located in the east coast.


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## Baby_Rio_GSD (Feb 24, 2020)

Hi, breeder is from Marshall, MI. Kennel name is Alta-Tollhaus German Shepherds. Www.24kgsd.com. Julie is amazing. She will answer all your questions and be 100% honest. Good luck! If you have any questions you can PM me!


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## CC27 (Nov 3, 2019)

Julie is the best ^^ feel free to PM me as well. Just brought home my pup from her and he is all I could have wanted and more


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## jrpenrod88 (4 mo ago)

NinjaZx6r said:


> A reputable breeder locally referred me to a another good breeder in Idaho. Infact couple of her breeding females came from idaho breeder. She tests all are dogs with Hips, elbows, DM, heart. All her dogs are DM clear. She said she ship puppies all the time and it is super easy and safe for the puppy. I will look into this breeder. I am walking away from the breeder that refused to DM test his dogs.


 Would you please send me the Idaho Breeders contact info.? We are looking for a well bred & tested female with a great temperment.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

jrpenrod88 said:


> Would you please send me the Idaho Breeders contact info.? We are looking for a well bred & tested female with a great temperment.


The person you are asking, has not been here for almost 2 years. You would be better off starting your own thread.


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