# "Old fashioned" GSDs



## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

In my short time as a GSD fancier, I've learned that pretty much all of the breeders that advertise their dogs as "large, straight backed, old fashioned GSDs with big blocky heads" are pretty much in the DO NOT ENGAGE category, lol.

I'm curious, though. Does this purportedly old fashioned GSD actually refer to any real dog that existed in the past? Were GSDs ever like they are describing? Hasn't the breed standard always called for the same size as it does today?

And when they assure potential buyers that their dogs don't have 'sloped hips' (which I am assuming means a sloped topline), do they just not understand the importance/function of proper angulation?


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I think a lot of irresponsible breeders say and advertise anything they think will sell puppies. Whether it's claiming certain heritage, use of buzz words, or temperament promises, I take it all with a grain of salt until I do my homework. 

As for adhering to the standard... that's a can of worms on this forum.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

no, these old fashioned dogs have always been outside of the breed standard, regardless of lines.... but yes, they existed, here in the US, after the war, when german shepherds became popular and available to the general public.... people who desired extra large, handsome, protective, family dogs - and bred those extra large handsome protective family dogs to others of the same type. the kind of dog everyone remembers their grandpas having out back ?


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Ah okay, so the old fashioned kind refer to those bred kind of willy nilly here in North America before standards got a little stricter. Not as in any changes to "The Standard", but an overall change in the outlook of responsible dog breeding?

Sorry about opening a can of worms - I don't mean to belittle anyone's preference, I'm sure many of the dogs these kinds of breeders produce make wonderful pets. My personal view is just that the breed standard is the way it is for a reason, and with such an overpopulation of pets in this world, responsible breeders ought not to breed specifically for qualities outside of the standard. Just my opinion, though.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Another perspective is most dogs are kept for pets and not for what their original purpose was such as herding,pulling carts,killing boars,or whatever.So adhering exactly to the breed standard isn't vital.As long as they are breeding healthy,even tempered dogs for pet homes it has no effect on breeders and owners of show and working lines.
I agree it is irresponsible to breed for specific variations such as size,color,etc. at the expense of health and temperament.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Another perspective is most dogs are kept for pets and not for what their original purpose was such as herding,pulling carts,killing boars,or whatever.So adhering exactly to the breed standard isn't vital.As long as they are breeding healthy,even tempered dogs for pet homes it has no effect on breeders and owners of show and working lines.
> I agree it is irresponsible to breed for specific variations such as size,color,etc. at the expense of health and temperament.


I can definitely see what you mean, and agree to a point. But I guess I just feel that since there are so many dogs in need of homes, best to leave the breeding to the ones that deliver the whole package - the structure and temperament that allow for the ability to work as intended, as well as to be a great family pet. Every litter will likely have a range of drives and capabilities anyway. So now you have puppies that could fit a wider range of families/owners.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This is rare air. A chance to have a conversation about healthy pet quality dogs...

Just a simple, innocent perception. There are those who need and expect top of the line, regardless if their preference is show or working. I respect the breed standards, absolutely, however it is apparent that 80% of us regular people do not own dogs that would be considered as "fine specimens of the breed standard". That competition goes to hundreds of thousands of dogs and owners that strive for perfection. This is awesome! But, has never been a part of my world....

In the past, that has been hard to carry on conversations here, not so much lately. I hope that this will continue. To me, the pet GSD's are being intentionally being bred away from the show/working extremes. The term "straight back" I don't think really means a try for a new standard as much as it means "lets try to get this breed healthy again". Many pet owners look at what is obviously structurally different "what they see on TV AKC sanctioned GSD's and hear about HD. And, that's it - so they look for the opposite, health reasons primary for a family pet. 

We see "extreme show dogs" and "extreme working dogs" and do not picture either as a good fit for our family. We look back when we were younger and see the GSD that somehow captured our hearts forever and they, in most cases were just GSD's - no high dollar amount, no pedigree - just excellent dogs for a family pet. 

I think breeding for oversize is flat out wrong. Why would you take a breed with obvious bone structure problems and try to increase the weight bearing load?? Stupid. However - if a GSD is an inch or two out of standard in height or 5-10 lbs over standard because of weight, it's not a reason to freak out and condemn every GSD that is not within standard. 

I just want a good, healthy pet - so far, that's what I have and am loving every second of it.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

My only argument there is that I don't think straight back means anything healthier. Angulation has nothing to do with HD, I think I've read many times on these forums, and PROPER angulation ensures a dog is able to move and use his or her muscles in the most efficient manner possible. You might call that healthier. 

I agree, not everyone cares about having a dog who can expend the least amount of energy when, say, herding livestock, thereby being capable of working for longer times without tiring. But can anyone argue that "more efficient" is "better"? That being said, for a time people made the dogs less efficient by going too far with angulation, but once that realization was made they have been getting back on track breeding for dogs with proper angulation. At least, that is my understanding, but I realize I am very new to all of this. Someone who knows more can please chime in 

I think "straight back" and "flat back" might be misused terms sometimes, too. You would expect a stacked dog, standing with one rear leg straight under and one extended back, to have a sloping topline, right? At least to a degree. But then there are the roached backs that seem to be common in WGSL, and again I still have much to learn, but I just find that look aesthetically unpleasing, for what that's worth.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Not saying that angulation has anything to do with HD. However, there is a perception that that is a problem to the layman. This, because it is their perception that the structure health problems started around the same time. 

Most efficient is better, most conformed to standard is better. Great for those with the time and money that can persue that.

Sometimes - we revert to the horse as an example. Those fondest memories were not of the top of the line that we saw compete on television, rather those we had as companions and meant more to us then the best show/performing horse that we knew was out there, but not a part of our world. 

The division is ok in the horse world. I don't understand why it's not ok in the dog world....


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

If you use the search function on this site, search..."king shepherds...oversize shepherds....old fashioned german shepherds..." You can see the general thoughts by working line people, show line people, pet people, etc...You will also see that such discussions sometimes went on for 20-35 pages and there were great arguments as to where this term "old fashioned" came from.

I would personally agree that the dog's are grossly over standard and are taking disgusting advantage of the "I only want a pet" people. Most of the working AND show breeders put most of their puppies in pet homes. A well bred shepherd should be able to work AND be in a home. It's sad that these breeders use "they are great if you ONLY want a solid pet (I say "solid" with great trepidation)" to breed dogs that are horribly out of standard in temperament, health, and size. They give breeders that actually work and test their dogs a bad name by insinuating that their dogs are too "drive-y" too "crazy" too "angulated" etc....all to push out a bizillion litters from parents who've done absolutely nothing for the breed. 

Shepherds aren't supposed to be pushing 100 pounds (or in a lot of the "oversize breeders" cases, well over 100 pounds). There are breeders capitalizing on the "bigger is better" mentality in America, and are pushing the "old fashioned" marketing scheme on many unsuspecting/unknowing pet people. Few (I would argue zero) from either the show world or the working world would ever go to a breeder that advertises "old fashioned/over sized" shepherds. Just my .02, which you can also find in one or two of the old threads on here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmmm, if a GSD is way out of spec he has to have something else in him?? And 5 to 10 pounds over and pushing 100 lbs?? That's cute. 

But if the rest of the "usual suspects" are standing down...so will Rocky and I. We've been members in a few of those closed threads and he says...give it a rest Dad! I trust my dog. 

Carry on folks.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Not saying that angulation has anything to do with HD. However, there is a perception that that is a problem to the layman. This, because it is their perception that the structure health problems started around the same time.
> 
> Most efficient is better, most conformed to standard is better. Great for those with the time and money that can persue that.
> 
> ...


I guess my feelings are that I have absolutely no problem with the people who love their pet GSD who happens to be out of standard, but I don't particularly approve of the people who breed them that way intentionally. For the reasons I've already mentioned, mainly that you can still get a great pet from breeders who do adhere to the standard.

I have definitely come to the same understanding as you about lay people and their expectations of what a GSD is supposed to be!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

DaniFani said:


> If you use the search function on this site, search..."king shepherds...oversize shepherds....old fashioned german shepherds..." You can see the general thoughts by working line people, show line people, pet people, etc...You will also see that such discussions sometimes went on for 20-35 pages and there were great arguments as to where this term "old fashioned" came from.
> 
> I would personally agree that the dog's are grossly over standard and are taking disgusting advantage of the "I only want a pet" people. Most of the working AND show breeders put most of their puppies in pet homes. A well bred shepherd should be able to work AND be in a home. It's sad that these breeders use "they are great if you ONLY want a solid pet (I say "solid" with great trepidation)" to breed dogs that are horribly out of standard in temperament, health, and size. They give breeders that actually work and test their dogs a bad name by insinuating that their dogs are too "drive-y" too "crazy" too "angulated" etc....all to push out a bizillion litters from parents who've done absolutely nothing for the breed.
> 
> Shepherds aren't supposed to be pushing 100 pounds (or in a lot of the "oversize breeders" cases, well over 100 pounds). There are breeders capitalizing on the "bigger is better" mentality in America, and are pushing the "old fashioned" marketing scheme on many unsuspecting/unknowing pet people. Few (I would argue zero) from either the show world or the working world would ever go to a breeder that advertises "old fashioned/over sized" shepherds. Just my .02, which you can also find in one or two of the old threads on here.


I didn't realize the origin of "old fashioned" GSDs and what dogs exactly it refers to was a topic already apparently hotly debated - I'll have to check those threads out some time!

I certainly didn't mean for this to become one of those threads doomed to be locked in future. I just didn't know if the breeders who use that marketing tactic were referring to any real kind of GSD of the past, or if it was just their misconception of what one is supposed to be like.

And can I just tell you how crazy it makes me, how else this breeder near me who uses those buzz words describes her dogs? "LOW to NO drive!!!" "This dam has very low RANK and DRIVE!" And then it just needles how her customers praise her by saying "Who knew we had such a quality breeder in our area, she is the real deal!"

And I'm over here like, there are a lot of things I don't know about breeding GSDs yet, but...you know nothing, Jon Snow.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> I didn't realize the origin of "old fashioned" GSDs and what dogs exactly it refers to was a topic already apparently hotly debated - I'll have to check those threads out some time!
> 
> I certainly didn't mean for this to become one of those threads doomed to be locked in future. I just didn't know if the breeders who use that marketing tactic were referring to any real kind of GSD of the past, or if it was just their misconception of what one is supposed to be like.
> 
> ...


Sigh...if I must...OS Dogs and "King Shepard's" are two different things. 

The things about different dogs in the line is where that comes as does Straight back, Old Fashion, low drive and huge size.

Us OS guys usually get caught in the cross fire or at least feel that way.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

J-Boo said:


> I didn't realize the origin of "old fashioned" GSDs and what dogs exactly it refers to was a topic already apparently hotly debated - I'll have to check those threads out some time!
> 
> I certainly didn't mean for this to become one of those threads doomed to be locked in future. I just didn't know if the breeders who use that marketing tactic were referring to any real kind of GSD of the past, or if it was just their misconception of what one is supposed to be like.
> 
> ...


Hey, I completely get it. I was totally in your shoes. I talked with the West Coast version of Black Magic, and was very VERY close to getting a puppy. I bought into the "old fashioned straight back" advertising, watched the powerpoint video with music showing the different dogs from years back with "straight backs" and breeders claiming they were HUGE. I was all in, thought I had found the breeders that were "doing it right." Then I got into the sport and LE K9 world...and learned a LOT (I never ever stop learning). 

There are crud breeders in all venues, sport, working, and pet. All extremes are bad to me, the crazy sport dog that can't settle, is unbalanced in prey, nerve, defense, etc...the nerved out pet dog that can only handle a house situation, you take it out of it's environment and hackles go up, boogy barking starts, and you're moments away from a fear bite, but as long as it's 140 pounds that's all that matters...it's ALL bad. 

Everyone attacks everyone else, that their breeding is worse or better. I'm learning it's usually the extremists that are having to defend why THEIR extreme is best. The ones producing balanced dogs with off switches and strong nerve aren't in the muck of it (of course when asked they have VERY strong opinions about the extremes, most just don't see the point in having the same argument in the same venue over and over), because their dogs speak for themselves. They're out working, in sport homes, in pet homes, in street jobs. I just always ask, what is the breeder doing to REALLY test their lines? What's the breeder's experience? What's their goal? These three things usually give me all the answers I need. I used to think it was titles titles titles. Yes, titles usually are a first indicator that I want to talk to a breeder. But I'm now learning that the breeder and their life/experience/knowledge is the most important. How active they are in the "dog world" what's their SUCCESS in the dog world, both as handlers and breeders (are their lines successful DOING something AND being "normal" dogs)? Etc...

Anyways, I started to kinda rant and I'm a little sleep deprived. But just wanted to say, I totally get what you're asking and why you were confused. It's a lot to hash out and there are a million different opinions on what a "real" GSD is. Oh, and I love your last sentence and the GOT reference. :-D


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Fodder said:


> no, these old fashioned dogs have always been outside of the breed standard, regardless of lines.... but yes, they existed, here in the US, after the war, when german shepherds became popular and available to the general public.... people who desired extra large, handsome, protective, family dogs - and bred those extra large handsome protective family dogs to others of the same type. the kind of dog everyone remembers their grandpas having out back &#55357;&#56841;


Are there pictures anywhere of these "old fashioned" dogs? In every single old picture of German Shepherds that I find, I see dogs that are possibly even smaller than the ones we have today.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Please look at the articles in
Articles - The German Shepherd Dog


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> This is rare air. A chance to have a conversation about healthy pet quality dogs...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some of us with opposing views still exist. Think we are just too tired to have this long never ending discussion again. 

Op should look up some old threads if they want to see this discussion. Here is a thread where this was discussed in depth. No energy and or desire to do it again and give the other side. (Which is important in a balanced argument, to see things from all angles).

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0.html#/forumsite/20533/topics/521618?page=10


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

IMO, there is nothing wrong with pet dogs, pet owners, pet training, etc, whatsoever. There is everything wrong with Pet Breeders for this breed. Why?, because you can get Pet dogs, for pet people, to do pet training, from the same breeders that breed GS capable of fulfilling their statutory legacy.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Perhaps our thoughts are more alike than different.We all want healthy dogs with good temperaments.We want to support responsible breeders that don't deliberately breed for "extremes".We dislike marketing gimmicks.
We love our dogs and want to help each other train and care for them


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## GSDreSearching (Jul 21, 2015)

As someone who is still learning (a lot), I thought I would throw in my two cents. I recently met a friend's Black Magic shepherd (out of CA). The dog is very nice, seemed to have a good temperament, healthy, etc. I hadn't heard of the breeder so was checking out their website and I couldn't find anything about their pedigrees or titles. I think what I found a little off putting is that the puppies cost so much. It does appear they do test hips so perhaps that explains some of the cost.

I have put down a deposit on a puppy from a reputable breeder which also costs a lot, but I expect to pay a good breeder that amount because of the work that goes into the litters. (The titling, the health testing, the pedigree information, the well thought out breeding, etc).

As someone who wants "just a pet" I went back and forth A LOT on what breeder would be right for me. I still feel a little intimidated/nervous about a working line puppy but I've done a lot of research and spent a good deal of time talking to the breeder to make sure I can provide an appropriate home. 

I do understand where people are coming from when they say they "just want a pet". It can be a little intimidated when you start reading and researching. I know my friend was just looking for a big german shepherd to be his buddy. He is very happy with his dog and said he got exactly what he wanted.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I consider my first GSD to be sort of "old fashioned". 

Her, circa 2009









Hektor vom Schwaben, circa 1900







http://www.germanshepherds.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> IMO, there is nothing wrong with pet dogs, pet owners, pet training, etc, whatsoever. There is everything wrong with Pet Breeders for this breed. Why?, *because you can get Pet dogs, for pet people, to do pet training, from the same breeders that breed GS capable of fulfilling their statutory legacy*.



This should be repeated over and over!!!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Perhaps our thoughts are more alike than different.We all want healthy dogs with good temperaments.We want to support responsible breeders that don't deliberately breed for "extremes".We dislike marketing gimmicks.
> We love our dogs and want to help each other train and care for them


That's the bottom line. It's just that simple for me too. Mine is a little OS, but why should I get bent about it? She's everything I hoped for - healthy and happy

There was a post that Carmen did that settled me. I was worried about her gait because of her long body and slightly arched back. She said that would be a problem for a working dog as she could not sustain an endurance pace, BUT for a pet - no problem. I was just getting too wrapped up on some of the conversations about what MUST be. In a perfect world maybe they would all conform and look and behave in a certain way (a Stepford dog??:laugh


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

The original post wasn't about why people should or shouldn't be breeding/buying/loving this kind of dogs, although I guess I can see how the suggestion that we should keep our distance from those breeders is asking for an opposing view from people who believe otherwise. 

It was just a question as to whether or not "old fashioned" was an accurate term to use - were GSDs actually built like that in the past. If that has already been discussed before, sorry! I'll look at other threads about that to see what was said.

I can see in the pictures posted, though, how the conformation is like that described.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

DaniFani said:


> Oh, and I love your last sentence and the GOT reference. :-D


 lol


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> That's the bottom line. It's just that simple for me too. Mine is a little OS, but why should I get bent about it? She's everything I hoped for - healthy and happy
> 
> There was a post that Carmen did that settled me. I was worried about her gait because of her long body and slightly arched back. She said that would be a problem for a working dog as she could not sustain an endurance pace, BUT for a pet - no problem. I was just getting too wrapped up on some of the conversations about what MUST be. In a perfect world maybe they would all conform and look and behave in a certain way (a Stepford dog??:laugh


Stepford dog Love it Stonevintage!


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

I'm following this thread and just had to comment on the straight backed GSD's ( lol'd at the "old fashioned") when I was growing up in Germany and Poland these are the kind I remember the most. Mind you none were OS most weighted in at around 60-80 lbs but they did have less of a slope than the breed standard. None were titled however the lines were police and military. They were still working GSD's not bred like Shiloh or King Shepherds for looks and size.
I should scan and upload some old pictures from the 40's and 50's but most looked like Liesje's dog in the previous post


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MishkasMom said:


> I'm following this thread and just had to comment on the straight backed GSD's ( lol'd at the "old fashioned") when I was growing up in Germany and Poland these are the kind I remember the most. Mind you none were OS most weighted in at around 60-80 lbs but they did have less of a slope than the breed standard. None were titled however the lines were police and military. They were still working GSD's not bred like Shiloh or King Shepherds for looks and size.
> I should scan and upload some old pictures from the 40's and 50's but most looked like Liesje's dog in the previous post


If you have some old photos of GSD's in Germany that are not in the standard books, I would sure love to see them.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

I think that "old-fashioned" and "straight-backed" are buzz words, much like "Warlock" or "Euro" is in Dobermans. It sounds good, and a lot of the people deliberately breeding oversized, out of standard, dogs can usually talk a good talk about how your average show-line or working-line dog is inferior to their "insert buzz word here" dogs (that they typically neither show nor work). 

The breed I'm more familiar with, Dobermans, has a huge issue (no pun intended) with people breeding oversized dogs. They brag about their 30" tall 140 pound dogs being "superior sized" because the are Euros, and "Euro dogs are bigger". Yeah, right... the AKC and FCI standard differ by about an _inch_, and their "superior-sized Euro Dogs" are the size of Great Danes.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Someone said we were just to tired to argue anymore that is about right. 

Haven't been on for a while. Just wanted to check out some dog food and saw this thread. 

I see things haven't changed any.  

Have fun agreeing with each other. :toasting:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MishkasMom said:


> I'm following this thread and just had to comment on the straight backed GSD's ( lol'd at the "old fashioned") when I was growing up in Germany and Poland these are the kind I remember the most. Mind you none were OS most weighted in at around 60-80 lbs but they did have less of a slope than the breed standard. None were titled however the lines were police and military. They were still working GSD's not bred like Shiloh or King Shepherds for looks and size.
> *I should scan and upload some old pictures from the 40's and 50's* but most looked like Liesje's dog in the previous post


Please do!!!!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

not many here are oversized 'old fashioned', yet it is 'old' video of dogs from the 'old' days... Metiers de Chiens - vidéo dailymotion


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Great video, that's exactly what I remember my grandfathers having. I'm trying to find some old photos of the overall shape of the dogs but most of them are front while sitting...I'll ask my mother to see if she has any. Thanks for posting the video


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

Any GSD enthusiast should Max von Stephanitz's book and see the "old style" GSDs. His ideas & theories still hold true & proof of that is all around. If one is to look at the GSDs cousin, the Malinois, you'll see a straight backed dog that easily handles vertical walls with little problem and lots of enthusiaism. The "grandfather" of all dogs, the wolf, is built very similarly with a straight back & little if any rear angulation compared to a lot of GSDs and dysplasia is almost unknown in the wild so there's a lot to be said about promoting "old school" structure. Now this idea of "big" (90-110lbs) GSDs is, IMO, just as dangerous because like a big football player their useful, working life is diminished due to the burden of the carrying the extra size. I'll again refer to von Stephanitz who said that "GSD breeding must be WORKING dog breeding or it ceases to be GSD breeding. 
Why the emphasis on work? Well, like anything else, skills that aren't used, atrophy and the physical & mental skills to perform erode as generations pass. We see that in paelentolgy when it's shown/proven how animals evolve & grow or lose limbs as time passes. 
And if one tracks bloodlines & breeders close enough , one will notice the "working dog" breeders have a direct or very close tie to things like LE, S&R, herding, etc. and their animals are the ones usually chosen for that work and for perpetuating those traits.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

? Hope lives on!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

"Now this idea of "big" (90-110lbs) GSDs is, IMO, just as dangerous because like a big football player their useful, working life is diminished due to the burden of the carrying the extra size"

That depends on the dog and the proportions. Bud is 95lbs or so, not fat just built like a tank. He's old now but when he was younger he was fast, outran Sabi all the time, and she had no trouble running down a fleeing human.
He is a bit heavier on the front end then I would like to see, but he is structurally sound and at 14 still bouncing, running and debating going over the fence. 
In his younger years he cleared/scaled fences in a blink and it took huge imagination to keep him contained. We routinely ran him behind the car, because it was the only way to actually wear him out at all. He often hiked with me all day, and would still try for the fence when we got back. His sire was big but within standard and his mom was a fairly compact little thing, his siblings were all within standard. I believe a male from a previous litter was nearly as big.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I dropped by the vet's office to get a weight on Samson (2yrs old)and buy licences and he's 100.1 at 28" atw.He's big boned and carries it well.He leaves my 50lb dog in the dust.He's a lot faster and more athletic than one would expect but doesn't have the stamina to go all day.But then neither do I so it works for us


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> "Now this idea of "big" (90-110lbs) GSDs is, IMO, just as dangerous because like a big football player their useful, working life is diminished due to the burden of the carrying the extra size"
> 
> That depends on the dog and the proportions. Bud is 95lbs or so, not fat just built like a tank. He's old now but when he was younger he was fast, outran Sabi all the time, and she had no trouble running down a fleeing human.
> He is a bit heavier on the front end then I would like to see, but he is structurally sound and at 14 still bouncing, running and debating going over the fence.
> In his younger years he cleared/scaled fences in a blink and it took huge imagination to keep him contained. We routinely ran him behind the car, because it was the only way to actually wear him out at all. He often hiked with me all day, and would still try for the fence when we got back. His sire was big but within standard and his mom was a fairly compact little thing, his siblings were all within standard. I believe a male from a previous litter was nearly as big.


 And that's good for you & Sabi. My question then is : How long was his working life & what did he do? I'm not saying it's not possible, but if you look at the majority of GSDs of working lineage they are not that big. Competitive Sch dogs & a lot of working dogs are done at 9 or so. Looking at it from a working perspective, if/when you ever had to carry a 90-110lb GSD most would wear out pretty quickly. Not to mention they simply make a bigger target. 
I don't mean to sound like a gloom-&-doom type about bigger dogs but the fact is when used for work everything needs to be taken into consideration. Myself, I'd prefer a more mid-sized dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

No argument with you there, hemicop.Gsds are ideally med. sized for good reason.But I guess we were just trying to dispel the notion that all OS dogs aren't big,lumbering,unhealthy oafs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

hemicop said:


> And that's good for you & Sabi. My question then is : How long was his working life & what did he do? I'm not saying it's not possible, but if you look at the majority of GSDs of working lineage they are not that big. Competitive Sch dogs & a lot of working dogs are done at 9 or so. Looking at it from a working perspective, if/when you ever had to carry a 90-110lb GSD most would wear out pretty quickly. Not to mention they simply make a bigger target.
> I don't mean to sound like a gloom-&-doom type about bigger dogs but the fact is when used for work everything needs to be taken into consideration. Myself, I'd prefer a more mid-sized dog.


 Well you see, I do understand that.
Although Bud started training, my boss removed him from the program because his out was non existent. Once he had you he wasn't letting go, for any reason.
Although we did use him for tracking and detection, he never had to work daily. He is however almost 14, and I still wouldn't like your chances of making it back over his fence
Sabs however, was a moose of a female at 85lbs and while definitely slower she worked until age 10. That's daily, long shifts on city concrete.
In order to stay working, and keep her as a partner, I had to prove routinely that I could lift and carry her. It never seemed far that all the guys had 60lb dogs and I had her, but I wouldn't have traded her
I also used her as a sub for the torso bag when training for the PARE, 80lbs for 50 feet is required, I could carry her 100ft. It was a good plan until she would get bored and start licking my face!


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## livetosing1 (5 mo ago)

dogma13 said:


> Another perspective is most dogs are kept for pets and not for what their original purpose was such as herding,pulling carts,killing boars,or whatever.So adhering exactly to the breed standard isn't vital.As long as they are breeding healthy,even tempered dogs for pet homes it has no effect on breeders and owners of show and working lines.
> I agree it is irresponsible to breed for specific variations such as size,color,etc. at the expense of health and temperament.


The Collie Club of America
( rough&smooth) worked and continues to work hard to keep their breed pure. Mandatory spaying / neutering of all pet pups sold by AKC breeders and rescuing collie mixes from shelters to prevent the breed from being changed is of the utmost importance to the group. With all the backyard breeders we have way tooooooo many dogs on the streets and in shelters in need of stable homes. You'd think the wealthiest country could figure out a way to limit willy nilly breeding of irresponsible breeders or limit the number of litters per year AFTER registering and paying all the EXPENSIVE fees to be licensed as a reputable breeder.
It should be a national effort to regulate pet populations like this. And don't even start with the feral cat problem ---
o m g!!


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