# Help with spay decision



## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

My vet is pretty insistent that we have lexi spayed asap. She says the risk of cancer will skyrocket after the first heat, but seems more fixed on the fact that a heat cycle can be messy. That being said I have read a ton of info on both sides of the fence. I would like to keep her intact, not really for breeding, but seems wrong to give a hysterectomy to a little kid. We have always had our animals spayed/neutered, but my thought process seems to have changed. 
The main reason for my hesitance is the growth plate closing delay. I have 2 friends with gsd's who were both spayed at young ages and both seem to have overly long thin frail looking legs. Just seems like common sense that removing sex organs before maturity HAS to have some kind of negative effect. Id like opinions on both sides, aside from "females in heat are gross" blah blah blah. Keeping her out of harms way won't be an issue. We also almost lost a dog from an adverse reaction to anesthesia during spaying.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Captain's owners neutered him at 4 months old. I have the paperwork.

I can't say this is a direct result of neutering him that young but I can give you the facts now.

He is now 3 yrs old, 68 lbs, very little muscle mass, virtually no fat, very obvious bones, hip bones, ribs, skull bone. He is 27" atw. So pretty tall, and I have not measured his length but he seems longer than most gsd's I have encountered. 

If I had captain from day 1, I would have waited until he was more developed to neuter him. Possibly 9 months- 1 yr old I would have neutered him.


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## Palydyn (Aug 28, 2014)

My vet recommends spaying females sooner than neutering males for some reason. She is okay with waiting till 18 -24 months for males, btw. Since Rommel is a male I never got into the whole female spaying issue. My last GSD male was neutered early and while I can't say for certain that that contributed to his later health problems it could have. So I understand your concern. Sorry I can't help.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My only advice is to not let your vet bully you into doing something you feel is wrong.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

All of my females have been spayed at 6 months, never had a issue.

Delgado was neutered at 10 months, he's in great shape and his sex has never once been questioned  It's always "what a handsome boy!" 

Vets will push it, but you have to remember that they've seen the worst of it. Oops litters, C-sections because the dam couldn't deliver, multiple unhealthly dogs due to bad breeders and all the other complications. But in the end it's YOUR decision and while they are a source of information, you need to weigh the pros and cons yourself.


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

Thanks for the quick responses. Just seems wrong to cause damage to this majestic little beast at 5 months old.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Barbie, no offense but your dog was horrendously neglected which undoubtedly affected him more than the early neuter!
My input would be that it can be difficult for many owners to care properly for an intact female and yes the risk of breast cancer shoots up after 1st heat cycle.
You can't let her out by herself, even if your yard is fenced, so that means walking out with her multiple times a day while she pees, and she'll pee more because she is in heat and her urine is an engraved invitation to every male in the area to visit and impregnate her, that's just hormones!
So you have to be extremely careful with her or she could wind up having a litter of puppies you are not prepared to deal with!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

SkoobyDoo said:


> Barbie, no offense but your dog was horrendously neglected which undoubtedly affected him more than the early neuter!
> My input would be that it can be difficult for many owners to care properly for an intact female and yes the risk of breast cancer shoots up after 1st heat cycle.
> You can't let her out by herself, even if your yard is fenced, so that means walking out with her multiple times a day while she pees, and she'll pee more because she is in heat and her urine is an engraved invitation to every male in the area to visit and impregnate her, that's just hormones!
> So you have to be extremely careful with her or she could wind up having a litter of puppies you are not prepared to deal with!


No offense taken  he was neglected, but even more than that, some questionable decisions early in his life. I'm not sure if he is skinny because he wasn't being fed properly, or if it is partly due to neutering so young.? I don't have proof that his lack of body weight correlates with the age he was neutered at, I just have proof he was neutered at 4 months old, and if I had him since a puppy I would have waited a bit longer. Now as far as females... I couldn't say. Sorry OP. I usually tend to have male dogs so do not really have any experience with females. I just know it was the vet that recommended captain be neutered at 4 months. I spoke at length with the previous owners and they said the vet did recommend not because he was having any health issues or any other reason to neuter that young other than, it is a good idea to get them neutered before they get bigger because then you have to use more Anasthesia, cost increases, risk increases, blah blah blah. It just goes to show when a vet tells you something, do your own research, follow your gut. Some vets are awesome and make great recommendations. Some... Are questionable. Be your dog's #1 advocate.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Your vet is using scare tactics to get your business. Don't fall for that. Hormones are not replaceable and are needed for health, not just to make them die.
I refuse to allow rescues, breeders or vets dictate what I should do with my animals and will walk on when they do.
Deja is the picture of heath and I will not put her through surgery needlessly. I love the way she is, her mood swings and all.
But I watch her female health like a hawk and will spay her for medical reasons only.
The heat cycles are OK with me. I actually enjoy having a break from training and hikes during that time and stay home with her during and around her fertile days.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I feel this way.




Not all vets agree.

Watch this video please. Have a look at information, other people provide.
The final decision is yours.

I dont believe there can be a mandatory operation for all dogs irrelevant of history that improves health across the board. It just does not make sense to me.

This is certainly true for human medicine.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> No offense taken  he was neglected, but even more than that, some questionable decisions early in his life. I'm not sure if he is skinny because he wasn't being fed properly, or if it is partly due to neutering so young.?


I doubt it was because of the neutering. 

Buddy was Neutered at 4 months. Full male features. He was neither skinny or especially long legged. 

*removed by moderator - maximum picture size is 800 x 600*


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

This!



Shade said:


> All of my females have been spayed at 6 months, never had a issue.
> 
> Delgado was neutered at 10 months, he's in great shape and his sex has never once been questioned  It's always "what a handsome boy!"
> 
> Vets will push it, but you have to remember that they've seen the worst of it. Oops litters, C-sections because the dam couldn't deliver, multiple unhealthly dogs due to bad breeders and all the other complications. But in the end it's YOUR decision and while they are a source of information, you need to weigh the pros and cons yourself.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Sigh. Your vet is behind times. Breast cancer is survivable, hemangio not so much. A host of skeletal issues can come from spaying/neutering before a dog is fully mature. There is some thought that letting a dog/bitch stay intact until s/he is 5 yo is best. 

I only neutered my now 5 yo because she had false pregnancies that led me to understand why the term for the species' gender had a negative connotation. She was neutered at a little over 5 yo. 

Heats are not that messy. Doggy diapers or a cheap substitute works well. So far keeping the boys away wasn't the issue I worried that it might be. Vigilance is recommended and no dog parks during the 3 week season either. It didn't turn out to be the big deal I thought it would.

I'd research some of the data on the current info re spaying/neutering and present that to your vet along with the word "No." spoken firmly.


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

That's about where my though process is. Seems removing a breast tumor would be much less invasive than a hysterectomy, as long as it isn't left to grow too long. Whe I was around 17 I brought home a female mutt from a farm down the road, and she was pretty much an outdoor dog. Always having male dogs we never gave a thought to the heat thing, which really wasn't bad, but she did get pregnant in her first heat and had 9 healthy puppies. I learned my
Lesson about the females after that, and now have a house and yard better equipt to deal with it. Honestly I think I'm going to keep her intact. I have no real attachment to our current vet other than the fact that it is closest to our house. Considering we live in Rhode Island finding another vet within a short distance shouldn't be too hard.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Do what you want....don't let the vet push you around. My breeder is a vet and her recommendation is not to do it till they are much older. In fact I think the hip warranty is null and void if you spay before 18 months.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not sure why you need to go to another vet. Tell him no, you are not interested in a spay at this time. If he persists, ask him if you should find another vet. This is your decision. If this vet is nearer your home, and is otherwise sufficient, than you do not have to leave because you did not follow his advice in one area. But I would tell him flat out, "I do not intend to spay her unless her reproductive system presents a problem." I have had a vet tell me that all females get pyometra if they are left intact. I think Jazzy was 13 and intact when she passed, no pyometra, can't figure out how it passed her by.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

eddie1976E said:


> Do what you want....don't let the vet push you around. My breeder is a vet and her recommendation is not to do it till they are much older. In fact I think the hip warranty is null and void if you spay before 18 months.


 The problem with most vets is that GSDs are not their primary breed. So they might not see the difference that remaining intact can make. Breeders do see it, because GSDs are their primary breed. I think for most breeds, it probably does not make as much of a difference. GSDs and some of the larger breeds just mature slower, so removing the hormones at the time most pups are altered without issue can be more problematic for them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have different vets for different things and dogs. When and if they ask about neutering/spaying they aren't pushy. They brought it up with Apollo and I said was waiting a while, they said ok, just make an appointment for bloodwork beforehand. The same with Brennan. I think that it depends on the relationship you have with the vet. If they know you and your dogs, they aren't as pushy.


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

Kind of off topic but I've read a lot of different stuff about this too. Right now Lex is 5 months. She has grown like a weed but still seems pretty small to me. Do gsd grow a lot after 5 months? I don't really care if she is huge, but she is still really small. Her ears and paws seem to be growing faster than the rest of her, but she has always been really well proportioned compared to some other pups I've seen. I feed her BB large breed puppy about 5 cups a day and I read that the large breed puppy actually slows growth a little to avoid joint issues.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Eagles and Indians said:


> Kind of off topic but I've read a lot of different stuff about this too. Right now Lex is 5 months. She has grown like a weed but still seems pretty small to me. Do gsd grow a lot after 5 months? I don't really care if she is huge, but she is still really small. Her ears and paws seem to be growing faster than the rest of her, but she has always been really well proportioned compared to some other pups I've seen. I feed her BB large breed puppy about 5 cups a day and I read that the large breed puppy actually slows growth a little to avoid joint issues.


Yes of course they grow a lot more past 5 months


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Eagles and Indians said:


> I feed her BB large breed puppy about 5 cups a day and I read that the large breed puppy actually slows growth a little to avoid joint issues.


That seems like a lot of food. Puppies should be on the skinny side. Can you post a picture? View from the top and from her side.


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## Reef LeDoux (Feb 21, 2015)

I've had many dogs and of course I l Love them all. However the LOVE of my life was a dog named Macy. She was like no other... 
I never had her spayed because I didn't want to put her through a surgery for something unnecessary. She had a couple false pregnancies but they were no big deal. 
Then one night she just looked strange and wouldn't walk to me or get up. We rushed her to an emergency vet where they did surgery and found that her uterus had become infected and burst. They did everything they could for her but after 4 days she passed away still at the emergency hospital. She was only 5. 
Since then I spay/ neuter between 18 months and 2 years. My Macy didn't have to die, it was completely my fault for not getting her spayed.

On the other side don't do it too young 18 months - 2 years so they can fully devolve mentally and physically.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I got Shelby from the shelter. She came in with her littermates. Shelters always spay and neuter, before adopting out. Shelby was spayed at about 7 weeks old. That's right 7 WEEKS. She is about 6.5 months old and is doing great. It wouldn't have been my first choice for her, but I'm not about to lose any sleep over it.

Totally your decision OP.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Eagles and Indians said:


> My vet is pretty insistent that we have lexi spayed asap. She says the risk of cancer will skyrocket after the first heat, but seems more fixed on the fact that a heat cycle can be messy. That being said I have read a ton of info on both sides of the fence. I would like to keep her intact, not really for breeding, but seems wrong to give a hysterectomy to a little kid. We have always had our animals spayed/neutered, but my thought process seems to have changed.
> The main reason for my hesitance is the growth plate closing delay. I have 2 friends with gsd's who were both spayed at young ages and both seem to have overly long thin frail looking legs. Just seems like common sense that removing sex organs before maturity HAS to have some kind of negative effect. Id like opinions on both sides, aside from "females in heat are gross" blah blah blah. Keeping her out of harms way won't be an issue. We also almost lost a dog from an adverse reaction to anesthesia during spaying.


Have you considered having a tubal ligation or having her uterus removed? You'd keep the hormones (and the bitchiness connected to the hormones) and wouldn't have to worry about her reproducing.

I think vets have had it drummed into there heads that it's SPAY/NEUTER or all the sins of mankind will befall on you!!! I took Ledgie, who had a vasectomy, to a vet I use when I can't get up to my regular vet's office. He went on and on that I should get him neutered despite his vasectomy. If/when he has prostate problems or something connected to his intact equipment I'll have whatever needs to be done done, but until then he's got hormones and acts like a gentleman.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

There are very real risks to spaying, but there's also very real risks to leaving intact!
It's up to the owner of course but don't assume this vet has ill intentions because they are saying spay!
Leaving the uterus and hormones behind does not reduce the risk of cancers.

I was thinking about this last night, too, and not all dogs are going to be bulky muscular beasts, lack of hormones don't completely "wreck" the physique, just as in humans and other mammals, individual genes are at play as well! That's for Barbies and Shepherds!  All human men do not look alike despite the fact most are intact haha so why would all dogs look alike?

It takes an ultra responsible owner to keep intact animals and keep them from reproducing, and I'm sure that as someone earlier typed, once the vet knows you and knows you will be responsible and won't let a litter of mutt puppies get born in a few months, they may ease up, but keep the lines of communication open!

Discuss this with them! Prove to them that you are a caring owner and an informed consumer!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

SkoobyDoo said:


> There are very real risks to spaying, but there's also very real risks to leaving intact!
> It's up to the owner of course but don't assume this vet has ill intentions because they are saying spay!
> Leaving the uterus and hormones behind does not reduce the risk of cancers.
> 
> ...


Hormone production and normalising developmental growth can have a positive effect on some cancers.
Some studies have actually shown that ovary removal and decreased hormones actually increases the overall risk of cancer.

Remember that there are many different types of cancer.

I cant understand preventative operative procedures for something like cancer, with no familial history, or some indication that the dog is likely to have those types of cancers.....
Now say a breeder breeds various puppy's and their owners all neuter them, and no follow up.. There is no way of knowing to breed against susceptibility to ovarian cancer, for example.

The whole system of removing ovaries for example to reduce those types of cancers is a flawed, backwards system of thinking.

I once talked about evolution and neutering having a link in the process. I could not remember the link at the time.
But selective breeding is an process that effects evolution. And Neutering does have an effect


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

LOL there is nothing natural about owning dogs, sorry! And we don't go out and alter wild animals as a rule!
That's like comparing apples to oranges, but, whatever, I guess!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Lykoz said:


> But selective breeding is an process that effects evolution. And Neutering does have an effect


Yes..it stops evolution 

On another note: I once asked a family physician the following, related to the issue with dogs: if women would have removed their ovaries and uterus at an early age, wouldn't that lessen their chances of breast cancer? His answer was "yes". Yet we don't do that if it is not medically necessary.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> I feel this way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My only gripe is when I saw the video I was like...
oh man 25 minutes!!! :blush:

Other than that...thank you for posting!

My wife and I had a long discussion afterwards! 

Struddell our Boxer was 4 when we got her fixed and we waited that long because of "my" fear of Ace: 
American Boxer Club: Warning on Acepromazine

I understand from a vet tech on here that the vet needs to use 30 percent less of Ace than the norm on Boxers. I accept that but it's much easier to say"NO ACE" on my Boxer!

But that aside I did not understand there was a difference between "sterilization" and "neutering."

I'll have to see if "sterilization" is an option around here?? If not, then I won't get my next female Boxer fixed...Boxers need all the advantages they can get to live a long life!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Or use a different anesthetic that is safe for Boxers?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Or use a different anesthetic that is safe for Boxers?


Yes, that is what a vet that is willing and knowledgeable will do! A Boxer in the OR is not just like other dogs!

Some vets have never seen a Boxer or had one as a "patient" in any case. If you have a Boxer it's a conversation one "needs" to have!


So at "Doc's" on Hwy 50 in Carson City if they get a Boxer client, and the owner asks the vet "not" to use Ace...I'm pretty sure his answer would be'"..it's a Boxer so of course...no Ace will be used!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Reef LeDoux said:


> I never had her spayed because I didn't want to put her through a surgery for something unnecessary. She had a couple false pregnancies but they were no big deal.
> Then one night she just looked strange and wouldn't walk to me or get up. We rushed her to an emergency vet where they did surgery and found that her uterus had become infected and burst. They did everything they could for her but after 4 days she passed away still at the emergency hospital. She was only 5.
> Since then I spay/ neuter between 18 months and 2 years. My Macy didn't have to die, it was completely my fault for not getting her spayed.
> 
> On the other side don't do it too young 18 months - 2 years so they can fully devolve mentally and physically.


So sorry that happened! And yes that is how I felt about my girl! Don't want to put her through it!

I'll look into "sterilization" options out here in any case. And yes I am also in the 18 to 24 month range if "given" the option!


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## Cobe914 (Sep 29, 2014)

I've had a lot more experience with male dogs. I know my breeder voids my pup's hip warranty of I neuter before 12 months. My first male I neutered really young... He grew to be much taller (and lankier) then his siblings, and passed away after a struggle with bone cancer.. a disease that was not rampant in his lines but interestingly enough has highly increased odds in early neutered dogs.
Research with leaving male dogs intact has much less grey area then with females... It's very clear that the health benefits far outweigh any risks for staying intact. Female dogs on the other hand I've seen a lot of back and forth with - One cancer has higher likeliness in intact but another one is lower, etc. I do recall several studies indicating increased longevity in females that were intact longer. My friend didn't spay her Rottie until she was 6, and she lived to be 16. I'll add that my grandmother's male ShepXMalamute lived to be an incredible 17 years old, and was intact his entire life. My aunt's female boxer was never spayed and lived to be 15 as well. 
I've worked in daycares and training facilities and most of the time there were very clear physical differences in animals that had been intact longer... but again, mostly males. Breed groups would get together, and even comparing littermates who'd been neutered at different times was very interesting. I'll also note that in daycare and boarding, most female dogs that struggled with incontinence were early spays or geriatric. We had a client with a female Airedale on hormone therapy because she had many problems a holistic vet had tracked down to her very early spay.
Also interesting were the behavioural differences. While most would say the contrary, we found that the majority of reactive dogs were in fact early neuters. While I'm fully aware that there many other factors in play, it was consistent of us to take note and ponder if there was a connection.
Anyway... These are my experiences, which doesn't make them fact. At the end of the day, the best thing you can do is as much research as possible, weigh the pros and cons, and determine what sits best with you.

Good luck


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

I'm thinking either spay at around 2 or a tube job. Thanks for all the info. As far as 5 cups a day being too much food...I don't think she is overweight, but here are some pictures. She is pretty full for 5 months but her ribs are still slightly visible.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip18 said:


> Yes, that is what a vet that is willing and knowledgeable will do! A Boxer in the OR is not just like other dogs!
> 
> Some vets have never seen a Boxer or had one as a "patient" in any case. If you have a Boxer it's a conversation one "needs" to have!
> 
> ...



I have Boxers! Have had for years! Boxers are not a "rare" breed so I doubt there are many "Docs" who haven't seen one!  ...Even if they aren't on Hwy 50 in Carson City!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Eagles and Indians said:


> I'm thinking either spay at around 2 or a tube job. Thanks for all the info. As far as 5 cups a day being too much food...I don't think she is overweight, but here are some pictures. She is pretty full for 5 months but her ribs are still slightly visible.


I can't tell anything from those pictures other than she's a beautiful sable who is super happy! Just keep her lean. How much you feed is dependent on the dog, the type/brand of food and activity level.

As far as spaying, that is entirely up to you. Do what you are comfortable with. The problem with these spay/neuter study is they do not have control groups and there are so many other factors involved in longevity and health. Environment, genetics, breed, accidents, etc.

Our one female Boxer was spayed at 6 months. She did have thyroid issues and a short lived issue with incontinence. But she lived to be almost 13. Suspected cause of death was a brain tumor that caused a massive seizure. She had mast cell cancer at 6 years which is a breed issue. My female Shepherd was spayed at 5 months. She's very leggy. Has had a torn ACL thru an injury. So far no thyroid issues. Has mild HD on her right side. She'll be 8 this year. Our current Boxer was spayed at 3 years. No health issues so far. She's a genetic anxiety filled mess but physically she's healthy. She'll be 8 this year. My neutered male Collie lived to be almost 15 and he was euthanized due to pain from arthritis. Otherwise he was healthy. Unsure when he was neutered.

As far as anesthetics, there are so different ones. Vets are very knowledgeable on what breeds are affected by which meds. Should you be informed? Of course! You always should about everything! You are your animals advocate. But any vet doing any surgery is going to be up to date on the safest options.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

We've had our last 3 females spayed after their first heat. Halo was 13 months old at the time. Yes, the risk of mammary cancer goes up in an intact female, but it's a fairly low risk to begin with, so having a heat or two prior to spaying shouldn't make a huge difference.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I have Boxers! Have had for years! Boxers are not a "rare" breed so I doubt there are many "Docs" who haven't seen one!  ...Even if they aren't on Hwy 50 in Carson City!!!


I did not say "Boxers" were a "rare" breed, I said some vets made not have worked on one!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> I did not say "Boxers" were a "rare" breed, I said some vets made not have worked on one!


Boxers seem to be very common in the NW as there are so many Boxer mixes in the shelters, so they must be breeding at random   :crazy: 
Just kidding, shelters often advertise Pits as Boxer mixes to them adopted easier.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chip, I understood what you were saying. I actually have very good reading comprehension so I don't need all those quotes and exclamation points for emphasis, nor did I need an education on Boxers in general or conversations to have with my vet. And my point was that I doubt there are many vets that have not seen one of the most popular breeds in the U.S. and that I would be willing to bet that they are knowledgeable on what drugs are harmful to certain breeds. It's part of their education. But this thread isn't about you or Boxers so I'll end my part in this conversation now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wolfy dog said:


> Just kidding, shelters often advertise Pits as Boxer mixes to them adopted easier.


Ours don't. I've seen some I swear were Boxer or American Bulldog mixes advertised as pit mixes here. I found it odd that they didn't note them as something other than pit.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Isoflourine is the anesthesia my German Shepherd had issues with. It was odd. It was used previously with no issues and used after with no issues but her heart rate dropped the one time. 

If you are worried about drug interaction, and I haven't read the entire thread so do not know how that subject came up, maybe test her for the mdr1 gene?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I would be willing to bet that they are knowledgeable on what drugs are harmful to certain breeds.


And...I would not! 



Jax08 said:


> I'll end my part in this conversation now.


Ditto.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Isoflourine is the anesthesia my German Shepherd had issues with. It was odd. It was used previously with no issues and used after with no issues but her heart rate dropped the one time.
> 
> If you are worried about drug interaction, and I haven't read the entire thread so do not know how that subject came up, maybe test her for the mdr1 gene?


Not sure how it came up either?? But I do believe it is the "mdr1" gene??.

When I was reading about Ace (way back when) it said it "could" effect all the "herder" dogs but "generally" it does not seem to be an issue with most?

I don't remember what they used on Struddell but when I looked at the receipt it wasn't ACE.  And it was 30 lbs of whatever they used.

My vet had no "issues" accommodating my concerns. 


...Sorry if my use of "quotes and exclamation points for emphasis.." offended you! That's just my thing, it was not "meant" to be an any sort of insult! 

...hmmm...see what i mean! :blush:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Boxers seem to be very common in the NW as there are so many Boxer mixes in the shelters, so they must be breeding at random   :crazy:
> Just kidding, shelters often advertise Pits as Boxer mixes to them adopted easier.


Generally speaking, that's a safe bet! Usually anything crossed with a Boxer tends to inherit the "Goofy" gene!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just so this doesn't get lost in the off breed conversation. 

To the OP:



Jax08 said:


> Isoflourine is the anesthesia my German Shepherd had issues with. It was odd. It was used previously with no issues and used after with no issues but her heart rate dropped the one time.
> 
> If you are worried about drug interaction, and I haven't read the entire thread so do not know how that subject came up, maybe test her for the mdr1 gene?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It's true that pyro doesn't happen in spayed females (hard to get an infection in an organ you no longer have) but it can be detected and the dog can be spayed at that time. It is something owners of intact females need to be aware of.

And Jax & Chip - Remember that it keeps the thread cleaner if personal misunderstandings are handled through PMs. Thanks.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

middle - I explicitly remember you informing me that you would post whatever you wanted on a thread and I better never tell you otherwise ever again. I would appreciate the same courtesy. Thanks.

Especially after both parties have already stated "end of conversation".


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Just so this doesn't get lost in the off breed conversation.
> 
> To the OP:


See it's an important point and we only got there because we went "_off breed!_ 

To emphasize your warning and for more info... I found this thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/437881-reaction-anesthetic.html

I'm pretty sure it was Colie VCT, that told me the Vet she works with does Boxers all the time and said "30%" of the "usually" anaesthetic was they way to with Boxers.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> It's true that pyro doesn't happen in spayed females (hard to get an infection in an organ you no longer have) but it can be detected and the dog can be spayed at that time. It is something owners of intact females need to be aware of.
> 
> And Jax & Chip - Remember that it keeps the thread cleaner if personal misunderstandings are handled through PMs. Thanks.


Dolly Noted!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Eagles and Indians said:


> My vet is pretty insistent that we have lexi spayed asap. *She says the risk of cancer will skyrocket* after the first heat, but seems more fixed on the fact that a heat cycle can be messy. That being said I have read a ton of info on both sides of the fence. I would like to keep her intact, not really for breeding, but seems wrong to give a hysterectomy to a little kid. We have always had our animals spayed/neutered, but my thought process seems to have changed.
> The main reason for my hesitance is the growth plate closing delay. I have 2 friends with gsd's who were both spayed at young ages and both seem to have overly long thin frail looking legs. Just seems like common sense that removing sex organs before maturity HAS to have some kind of negative effect. Id like opinions on both sides, aside from "females in heat are gross" blah blah blah. Keeping her out of harms way won't be an issue. We also almost lost a dog from an adverse reaction to anesthesia during spaying.


 Her risk of mammary gland cancer can increase, but that is operable/treatable.

Altering before 2+ yrs increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) and hemangiosarcoma. Both a guaranteed death sentence. Also the risk of Cruciate tears increase, arthritis, hypothyroidism and so on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm with Chip. If there is something breed-specific to watch out for, like the MDR1 gene, vWd, or an anesthetic that may not be good for the breed of dog, it is best to mention it and ensure it isn't being used. 

Sometimes vets are up on all the hundreds of dog breeds and what may be ok and what may be fatal, but sometimes, they aren't. We need to have a little knowledge of our breeds, and mention the important stuff, until we can determine whether or not our vet has these things covered.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> It's true that pyro doesn't happen in spayed females (hard to get an infection in an organ you no longer have) but it can be detected and the dog can be spayed at that time. It is something owners of intact females need to be aware of.
> .


And now we are or will be in my case.  I knew there was something to look out for with intact females but couldn't remember what it was!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> And now we are or will be in my case.  I knew there was something to look out for with intact females but couldn't remember what it was!


So far I have been lucky with this, but that can change in a heartbeat. There are two kinds: open and closed. Open is not as dangerous, the dog is leaking the fluid so the infection is actually going somewhere. In closed there is no discharge and how you find it is by noting change in behavior/illness in the bitch. 

Another problem to watch out for with an intact female is the bias some vets have with intact females. If the bitch is sick, and intact, sometimes the vets cannot see past their initial diagnoses of pyometra to find the real cause of whatever ails the dog. Spaying a dog with closed pyo may be the best thing to do, or it may be better to treat the infection first, and then spay, as this is something that will likely return again. 

An ER vet was certain a pup of mine had pyo when its owner took her to the vet. They wanted to emergency spay. The owner called me with the symptoms, and I told them it does not sound like pyo, and I sent them to a good 24 hour clinic in their area with a good reproductive department. Her own vet agreed that she should go there when they opened up that morning. She took our advice to find her dog had a partial blockage. She had no problem with pyo, and her owner was able to treat her without surgery. Surgery when a dog has a fever is dangerous anyway.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> So far I have been lucky with this, but that can change in a heartbeat. There are two kinds: open and closed. Open is not as dangerous, the dog is leaking the fluid so the infection is actually going somewhere. In closed there is no discharge and how you find it is by noting change in behavior/illness in the bitch.


Info is in my endless digital archive! Thanks

Struddell was either 4 or 5 when we had her spayed! I was going to wait 18 till she was 18 months but when I became aware of the "high potential" risk of ACE with her. I put it off.Because I did not want to take a chance. When I understood there were alternatives she was 4 or 5 and I had her spayed because that is what I thought you were suppose to do as a responsible pet owner.

Next female won't be fixed and If a system of closed pyo is changes in behaviour that's not a problem...if she wasn't acting like a fool...something would be wrong!


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## Areyyyyyyy (Mar 23, 2015)

i've been having the same discussion with my vet over my 5 month old female, Lexy. I'm a med student myself, but don't claim to have much knowledge about veterinary despite the similarities; however, being an avid researcher, i've concluded that letting her go through at least 2 heat cycles or around 18 months tops is my best option. I can expand on my reasoning and provide some research material if that interests anyone. best of luck raising your pup!

lexy is weighing at about 60 lbs and she will be 5 months in 2 days.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Areyyyyyyy said:


> i've been having the same discussion with my vet over my 5 month old female, Lexy. I'm a med student myself, but don't claim to have much knowledge about veterinary despite the similarities; however, being an avid researcher, i've concluded that letting her go through at least 2 heat cycles or around 18 months tops is my best option. I can expand on my reasoning and provide some research material if that interests anyone. best of luck raising your pup!
> 
> btw our dogs have striking similarities! lexy is weighing at about 60 lbs and she will be 5 months in 2 days.


Oh she's pretty and 18 months was also my original plan.


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

Wow your lexy looks just like my lexi just a little bigger. I'm on the same page as you. I'll wait till 18 months and see how I feel then. I'm not aware of many male dogs in my area, and have never seen a loose dog other than my neighbor down the streets decrepit old mini shnouzer. 
On another off topic... I took lexi shooting yesterday for the first time and she did great. Not gun shy, and calmed down after a few minutes of trying to catch the bullet casings as they were ejected. This might get some people heated but I also took my 2 year old son. I want him to grow up aware of a guns power and that they are not toys.


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## Areyyyyyyy (Mar 23, 2015)

it's crazy how much they look alike. that's the magic of genes right there. cute picture!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

While there are always things to think about with anesthetics and breeds, truth is that a well trained anesthetist and a vet who knows what they are doing with coming up with protocols, it can go much smoother than you could imagine.  But that is all a discussion for something else.

If I remember right, it's after the fourth heat cycle when the risk for mammary cancer goes up to basically one in four dogs. The thing about that, which most people haven't mentioned, is that if your dog does happen to have a mammary tumor, its recommended to remove the ENTIRE mammary chain. Because they're connected and you can have it spread through it all. Which is a pretty large procedure in itself. You can get quite a seroma there. 

Regardless, I feel waiting until maturity is a good idea. Especially for male dogs. And in some cases, there's medical reasons to avoid altering. In some cases, its better because of medical reasons, like with cryptorchid males. The chance of that retained testicle becoming cancerous goes up quite a bit. It's all pretty much a case by case basis. 

You have final say, no matter what. It's your pet. Vets over the last few decades were told all the reasons to spay and neuter at the times they recommend. Its been within the last half dozen or so years that I've heard of actual studies proving that we likely were wrong about how early. Medicine constantly changes. We have to remember that. Those who study and practice things within the scientific realm will want to see peer reviewed evidence to show that these new claims have reliable backup with them. It isn't just some ploy for money. You can find low cost spay/neuter clinics in many areas because the average joe can't handle intact animals.

However your dog outside alone for a bit if it's in heat, with you in your house, doesn't instantly mean the dog is going to get knocked up lol. I can easily speak from experience. Since we currently have a female in heat and two intact males within the house. Three years of no accidents.


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

Well today I feel terrible. After going shooting the other day Lexi seems to be deaf. Going to see a new vet only because my vet is closed until April first. They said there is not much they can do about hearing loss, and they see it all the time out here in the woods. I want to get x-Rays though because my friends three year old gs grabbed her by the head pretty hard while we were trying to introduce them. She didn't listen to me from that point on, even before we started shooting. I figured she was just being a punk. This new vet says they are very up to date on all breed specific issues. I like that, especially when they said they don't just grab the dog and throw it up in a table when they are nervous. Last time I took lexi to my normal vet she almost bit a nurse because they just threw her up on the table and started wrestling her.


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## Areyyyyyyy (Mar 23, 2015)

oh no  i hope lexi is fine. it could very well be just a behavioural exhibit rather than a physiological one. are you sure she's having hearing problems?


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

Took her the new vet today. She is definitely deaf but it seems like it may be coming back slightly. The vet said one of her ear drums was inflamed from the quick glance she got of it, and gave us a script of antibiotics. I gave her one with dinner around 5 and she already seems to be hearing some things. The heat came on a few minutes ago and the baseboards were ticking and she was following the sound. She still isn't responding to voice unless the angle and pitch are right, but I'm praying it's coming back. Thankfully she has decent obedience and has been really good using just hand signals. Even playing fetch loose she is still her 1000 percent energy self and doesn't get distracted by other stuff. I've got to say, this little gs is the best dog I've ever had and she's only 5 months old.
The new vet agreed with the 18 month or later spay which I appreciated. The new place is a little more expensive but I think that's where I'm going to stick.


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## Areyyyyyyy (Mar 23, 2015)

how is she doing now?


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## Eagles and Indians (Feb 24, 2015)

Hearing is mostly back thank god. The antibiotics seem to be helping a lot. Did some training today and she is listening better than ever now that she can hear again. I think I'm going to use hand signals much more now, just incase. Luckily she listened to te hand signals right off the bat. I learned a scary lesson that's for sure.


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