# My no chem garlic preventive journey



## NancyJ

Thought I would log the ongoing results of my garlic fleat and tick prevention this summer.

So far I am doing a daily flea & tick check but decided to expand on areas where there are known heavy tick populations. Right now the woods behind my house seem pretty clean after the deer left (I am not sure WHY the deer left but there was coyote presence back there that seems to have also disappeared) so neither me NOR the dog are picking up ticks.

So each time I go into tick country I will post anew. Beau is getting about the equivalent of 2 cloves garlic daily in granulated garlic mixed in his food.


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## NancyJ

4-27-13

Training on the SC NC border. Everyone was coming back with multiple ticks. I did not find any on me or on Beau but did find one the next day in my hair - not yet attached. Honestly, I think they get into my car then get back on me.

I decided that since I found one unattached on me I would do another more thorough check on Beau both with my fingers and using a slicker to brush and trap unattached critters. He came back with no ticks again. After I brushed I went through the matted hair clumps from the slicker and nothing but hair and some dirt. Also checked between his toes and inside his ears with special care.


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## Mrs.K

What I'm always wondering is if the benefits outstand the toxicity of Garlic. 

Depending on the dog, a small amount can be toxic already, at least that is the common tenor of professionals, however, Garlic seems to be common in treats and holistic treatments but I'm not sure if I want to take the risk. 

I'm all for holistic methods but not if it is that controversial. 

So what did your research say about it? What did the vet say? 

Two cloves each day is not a small amount, especially since it's toxic.


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## NancyJ

I understand the thiosulphate present in onions and garlic is the culprit and it is MUCH higher in onions which are very toxic to dogs.

Interesting discussion here. Garlic for Dogs

I will have been giving it for about a month when I take Beau to the vet on May 1 and plan to pull a blood panel. I would think low RBC would be the potential issue. My qty is much less than most of these people (I give about 1/4 tsp a day)

So much of what is good in small doses is toxic in large doses.
Re: Garlic toxicity?? | Psycho-Babble

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2984110/

A lot of folks give springtime garlic to good results.

The vet? The same person who is telling me to neuter my dog for his health? Back when I did not know any better I used garlic and brewers yeast daily for my dogs and did a nightly go over for fleas. Those dogs lived to be 15 and 14. It is a tough call.


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## onyx'girl

I'm giving Springtime garlic for the first time this season. I hope my dogs forgive me for giving them garlic flavored food constantly.
I look forward to your updates, and hope it works for my pack too!


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## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> I understand the thiosulphate present in onions and garlic is the culprit and it is MUCH higher in onions which are very toxic to dogs.
> 
> Interesting discussion here. Garlic for Dogs
> 
> I will have been giving it for about a month when I take Beau to the vet on May 1 and plan to pull a blood panel. I would think low RBC would be the potential issue. My qty is much less than most of these people (I give about 1/4 tsp a day)
> 
> So much of what is good in small doses is toxic in large doses.
> Re: Garlic toxicity?? | Psycho-Babble
> 
> Some food toxic for pets
> 
> A lot of folks give springtime garlic to good results.
> 
> The vet? The same person who is telling me to neuter my dog for his health? Back when I did not know any better I used garlic and brewers yeast daily for my dogs and did a nightly go over for fleas. Those dogs lived to be 15 and 14. It is a tough call.


Interesting. Thanks for the link.


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## Sunflowers

I can only imagine the breath :crazy:


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## NancyJ

Nope-no bad breath


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## Courtney

When I gave Rusty Springtime garlic he smelled like a pizza shop...didn't bother me. The smell was slight, I smell everything. No bad breath.


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## BowWowMeow

I always feel like people are going to think I work for the company but I don't...

I have been using the Bug Off Garlic for more than 10 years now. 4 of my dogs were on it and in 10 years I have found 2 ticks total. My dogs and I are frequently in areas that are wooded, wet, etc. and other people's dogs always get ticks. They have never had any health problems because of it. 

Rafi's breath does smell garlicky but I'd much rather have a dog with garlicky breath than a dog who is getting ticks! 

I did switch to the powdered Bug Off a few years back b/c it's more highly concentrated. I had to give Chama the tablets b/c she refused the powder.


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## NancyJ

Mmmm....well I will see how we do. I could just buy the springtime because that is the one most are having success with. But right now I can only smell it after he eats. I do wash his toothy pegs with a wet washcloth though.


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## onyx'girl

Get your order in by the end of the month, buy 2 get one free special(go in with a friend!)


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## NancyJ

Expensive stuff....how much do you go through in a year? [based on lbs of dogs?-I think Beau is probably around 80-85 now - he has started his bulking phase]

Have to put together an order of nematodes for the yard and that is my first line defense. Even though we are out in the woods on a daily basis.


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## x11

i thought garlic was associated with anemia in canines? if so can be offset with supplements/diet?


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## NancyJ

I posted some links on that. Springtime company also has some study info on that. ONIONS are highly toxic but there is a lot less of the offending compound in garlic, particularly dried garlic.

Anyway-I am just going to update the thread when I encounter ticks on me and other folks and see how the dog fares.


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## BowWowMeow

Are you using the powdered Bug Off from Springtime or something else? I'm a little confused. One 2.5lb. tub lasts 6 months for 2 dogs. Bug Off Garlic for Dogs | Natural Flea and Tick Repellent | Springtime, Inc.


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## NancyJ

I am just using dried garlic from Costco right now.

But I did not know how long you would get on the Springtime. I just ordered the 2.5lb tub since I only have one dog and got the free shipping-since it sounds like that would last about a year. Is that at the lowest dose? I know they have three levels of dosing.


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## NancyJ

Now back to the business of "tick counts" this season.


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## BowWowMeow

jocoyn said:


> I just ordered the 2.5lb tub since I only have one dog and got the free shipping-since it sounds like that would last about a year. Is that at the lowest dose? I know they have three levels of dosing.


They are each getting 1 scoop per day. I do more if I know we are going to spend more time in the woods or swampy areas.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Nancy - thanks SO much for this thread. I never knew the Bug Off came in tablets!! I've been fighting to get a couple of my boys to eat their food with the garlic on it.

And now that the girls are in season it's going to be hard enough to get them to eat!!

I just ordered 720 pills that were buy 2 bottles get 2 free - with free shipping!


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## kiya

Last year I tried the tablets an no one would eat them so I had to get a pill crusher. My husband hated the smell at dinner time. I really wished I was happy with the results but I wasn't.
this weekend after yard work I pulled 2 off me and one off hubby, all 3 had bitten. So far I think my dogs are good.


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## NancyJ

Today I pulled a tick out of Beau's coat but it was young and had not bitten him. I did an extremely thorough check looking for attached ticks and found none.

Conversely one had bitten ME on Sunday. (From Saturday's trainign I am sure even though I did a tick check when I got home....read the BEST thing to do when you get home is strip down and throw the clothes in the DRYER which will kill them. Then wash them. And, of course, the obligiatory tick check and shower but I was dumb and threw the clothes in the hamper. 

Well I developed a headache and nausea yesterday and the bite site on ME was infected so off to the doctor for doxy. Fortunately my inusrance still covered as a generic drug and it was available [so $4 for a 10 day supply for ME]

So talk about your results last year......ticks were still a problem? How much did you give? What are you doing now?


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## Mrs.K

The only ticks I pulled off of Indra was when I picked her up from the Airport in Buffalo. She had a couple of ticks on her. One had already bitten, the others were crawling in. So I'm not sure if she imported them from Texas or if she had gotten them on the flight.

Since then, not a single tick. Not on me or the dogs. As a matter of fact, since we live here, I've had not a single tick and we've been out in the woods a lot. Maybe they don't like my German Blood? 

Generally I only give preventatives during the tick season, I don't give it year round and when I do give stuff, than it is Advantix. Once it gets cold, they are off. It's been working for the last two years now.


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## NancyJ

LOL
I normally do NOT ever pick up a tick but this year promises to be interesting. Another mild winter here and a LOT of rain. .........


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## wildo

BowWowMeow said:


> One 2.5lb. tub lasts 6 months for 2 dogs.


Oh my gosh... so the *six* 2.5lb tubs I ordered will pretty much be a lifetime supply! haha! I thought it would get used up much faster!

I'm using the Bug Off Garlic daily, Buck Mountain Parasite Dust in between swim sessions (one application is said to last a LONG time _unless_ the dog gets wet and rinses it away), and Cedercide for spot treatment. Pimg had one tick (attached) this year prior to me starting this treatment plan. I sprayed the tick with Cedercide (which had just arrived in the mail that day) and it released in about 30 seconds.

I'm pretty excited to see how all this does for the season- I know the ticks are around. Personally, I don't find the "pizza shop" smell of the Bug Off garlic appealing, but it's way better than poison- especially with Pimg's Addison's Disease. I'm trying to reduce or eliminate any harsh chemicals with her.

Great idea, this thread. Subscribed!


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## BowWowMeow

It takes 3 to 6 weeks for the garlic to fully build up in their system. I generally start my dogs on it in the beginning of April but this year I forgot and only started last week. 

I have that Cedar spray too. I spray it on their bedding and in the back of my truck to repel fleas. 

Maybe I'm totally wrong about the amount of garlic to use? :blush: I thought I remembered just buying one tub last year but maybe I actually bought two. I only give the lowest dose though.


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## KZoppa

I'm following this thread. Geramy wants more outdoorsy stuff this summer so I've been looking at flea and tick repellents that would be safe to use around my cats too. Going to buy the springtime for Shasta!!!


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## kiya

I only gave the dosage according to weight they say in heavily infested areas increase it, but I was already giving the big dogs about 6 pills and I really had a hard time getting them to eat it. I kept the dogs out of the trails, only Lakota was out in the in the woods. She picked up those tiny "seed" ticks on her legs. I had a flea problem and had no choice but to treat with spot on. 
So once again I limit Lakotas trail exposure, since she's white it's easy to spot them. I had to pick one off this am in the middle of our run. When I get home I check her. My other dogs won't be in the trails till frost.


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## Diesel and Lace

I am all about holistic I just fear ticks so much I use K9 Advantix II. One of my family members HORSES got Lymes disease last fall, so the ticks here are dangerous and I dont want to risk it. I wish I had the confidence in it that you brave souls are, but after putting a horse down I can't bring myself to do it.


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## NancyJ

Well I have had failures before on Frontline and have heard of failures with Advantix.
To me flea and tick inspections mean daily detailed inspections.
And, the quicker you get the tick off, the less likely the infection.
If we start getting ticks I will move to preventic which is very effective.
Advantix II has permethrin - it is not ok to put it on human skin but not sure why it is ok to put it on dogs' skin.


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## kiya

I have not found any product that I am satisfied with for ticks.


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## wildo

jocoyn said:


> If we start getting ticks I will move to preventic which is very effective. Advantix II has permethrin - it is not ok to put it on human skin but not sure why it is ok to put it on dogs' skin.


I've seen you mention "preventic" a couple times. What is that? Is that a normal flee/tick collar? I'm not sure what that means. Does it relate to Advantix II in some way?


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## wildo

wildo said:


> I've seen you mention "preventic" a couple times. What is that? Is that a normal flee/tick collar? I'm not sure what that means. Does it relate to Advantix II in some way?


Nevermind. A simple google search answered this for me. Preventic is a brand of tick collars.


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## Momto2GSDs

This is what I use along with fresh garlic cloves and essential oils. So far, so good! 
TickLess Pet Ultrasonic Tick & Flea Repellent Device Pendant for Dogs & Cats


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## carmspack

if you are buying the Costco garlic check the label and see where it is grown, most likely China .
here is a do it yourself .... Make Your Own Flea And Tick Powder | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## NancyJ

I bought the Springtime so I am going to start using that instead. Got panels for everything pulled yesterday (annual maint) so will update when results come in.

I have done the powder thing but he is in the water a lot with hot weather down here he has a tub. I do use the DE around the house. I did double check the costco fish oil and it is canada source, USA processed.

Do you know the Indian grocer carries NEEM bar soap? I may try that for ME.


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## carmspack

I have a source for Neem - Indian herbal/pharmaceutical company -- will PM you the phone number


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## NancyJ

Wonderful - LOL I have my garden started so I think NEEM is ok on organic plants too.


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## Momto2GSDs

Neem is a great insect repellent and safe for mammals, but caution should be taken by pregnant mothers and children.
Although the following is talking about ingesting the neem, the skin can also absorb it.
"Children, infants and pregnant women http://www.livestrong.com/article/24498-neem-oil/#should not use neem oil. Long-term use and large doses of neem is not recommended." 

Read more: About Neem Oil | LIVESTRONG.COM
​


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## Mrs.K

You know what. I'm going to give this a shot too. If it is that cheap and effective, it'll safe me a LOT of money, having five dogs running around here. 

Bug Off Garlic for Dogs | Natural Flea and Tick Repellent | Springtime, Inc.

And this looks like an awesome deal too.


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## NancyJ

We need to update - I can open the thread to those who have tried garlic and get results good or bad. I think there is a 3-4 week loading dose.


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## andreaB

Please keep us updating I would love to switch to garlic of it's working for you and others.


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## onyx'girl

Last year, the ticks were non-existent in my yard(dry hot weather) The year before it was a horrible bumper crop of ticks, and I think this one will be the same because of the wet spring. Hope I'm wrong. 
Going into week three of the bug-off garlic....dogs are still eating it ok. I wish I'd gotten the pills though.


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## Mrs.K

I just ordered the special deal. Get two and the third one for free. I'll give this a shot. The Advantix should last us at least three more weeks so that'll be enough time to build up the Garlic. Those three tubs have cost me less than what I pay for a monthly supply of Advantix and if this truly works than I'm going to save a lot of money. 

If one tub lasts half a year for two dogs than three tubs should be enough for five dogs to last until Winter hits.


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## NancyJ

I am still doing a daily check! Most tick disease requires a tick to be attached for awhile before transmission.


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## Lauri & The Gang

I'm glad I ordered the pills. With 2 females in season, all the males in my house have started their hunger strike!


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## NancyJ

Does this stuff work for people?
Today's tick adventure (walk in the woods) resulted in me bringing home two lone star nymphs (that I know of - strip down - threw clothes in the tub after I shook them out - need to get a plastic bag to cart to the dryer (best way to kill them)

Could not find any on Beau. You would think he would appreciate his wild woods walk by being calm and compliant for a whole body tick search which was a combination of a complete go through with a slicker then fingers on the susceptile spots. I will check again before I bring him in tonight because they do tend to move to desirable locations. I also have him a good rinse due to being in the muck.


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## jae

still going strong there? are you prepping the garlic yourself? I am taking 2 cloves raw organic garlic, split a bit, and shoving them in his food.

My dog began getting garlic about the same time this thread was started, and so far so good. Flies and sqeeters don't seem to bother, either.


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## NancyJ

I switched him over to the springtime bug off . I have not found a single tick on him since I started nor a flea and I have noticed the mosquitos do not seem to bother either though they go for me [my shipment of mosquito dunks shoud be her tomorrow....I have an intermittent creek behind myself and I weight them down and throw them in the creek. ...... it is a major source of bugginess..


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## onyx'girl

I haven't found ticks on my dogs yet this season. So far so good! Hope it is from the bug off...dogs are starting to_ not_ like it.


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## wildo

I found an attached tick two days prior to starting BOG and Buck Mountain Parasite Dust. Since- (about a month now, I think) I've not seen one. Working so far!


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## NancyJ

I bought some of that product last year. He is just in the water so darned much that I figured it would not be worth it this year.. Many hose off's due to this - and - he has a pool in the back yard..we live in prime bug country.


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## wildo

Yep, we haven't gotten quite to the point of regular water hole visits this year. So for now, it seems worth it. But as you say- if they are daily wet, it probably wouldn't be worth it.


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## Lauri & The Gang

I had some of the Bug Off garlic powder left over from last year. When the ticks started REALLY bad, REALLY early I started the dogs on that stuff.

I encountered two problems:



Some of my dogs won't eat their raw food with the garlic sprinkled on it
My two bitches went into heat so the boys stopped eating ANYTHING
I then ordered the BO tablets (ha - that sounds funny). One tablet per 20 pounds of dog means my Crested each get 1/2 tablet, Mauser gets 3.5 and Winnie gets 1.


For those that won't eat the tablets straight I break them in half and stuff them inside a chicken heart (PERFECT pill hider).


It's been about 2 weeks or so since I was able to get everyone on the tablets (and since the boys started eating again).


Prior to this I was picking off at least a dozen ticks a day (from 7 dogs) - sometimes over TWO DOZEN.


Now I'm finding maybe 3-4 ticks TOTAL per day.


BIG difference!!


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## Courtney

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I had some of the Bug Off garlic powder left over from last year. When the ticks started REALLY bad, REALLY early I started the dogs on that stuff.
> 
> I encountered two problems:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of my dogs won't eat their raw food with the garlic sprinkled on it
> My two bitches went into heat so the boys stopped eating ANYTHING
> I then ordered the BO tablets (ha - that sounds funny). One tablet per 20 pounds of dog means my Crested each get 1/2 tablet, Mauser gets 3.5 and Winnie gets 1.
> 
> 
> For those that won't eat the tablets straight I break them in half and stuff them inside a chicken heart (PERFECT pill hider).
> 
> 
> It's been about 2 weeks or so since I was able to get everyone on the tablets (and since the boys started eating again).
> 
> 
> Prior to this I was picking off at least a dozen ticks a day (from 7 dogs) - sometimes over TWO DOZEN.
> 
> 
> Now I'm finding maybe 3-4 ticks TOTAL per day.
> 
> 
> BIG difference!!


I'm curious...with that many ticks have your dogs ever tested positive for tick disease? Ticks scare the crap out of me!


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## BowWowMeow

I did notice that the powder works better than the tablets (because it's more highly concentrated) so you might need to increase the dose of the tablets to get better results. 

Rafi and I have been in lots of tick friendly areas this spring and so far he remains tick-free.


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## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> I bought some of that product last year. He is just in the water so darned much that I figured it would not be worth it this year.. Many hose off's due to this - and - he has a pool in the back yard..we live in prime bug country.
> 
> Beau takes a mud bath - YouTube


LOVE IT 

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## Lauri & The Gang

Courtney said:


> I'm curious...with that many ticks have your dogs ever tested positive for tick disease? Ticks scare the crap out of me!


Every tick I've pulled off my dogs has been a Dog Tick. They are known for carrying Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and Tularemia. The incidences of both of those diseases in Wisconsin (where we live) is extremely low - so I don't worry and don't bother testing.

If any of my dogs started showing symptoms THEN I would test.


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## Momto2GSDs

jae said:


> still going strong there? are you prepping the garlic yourself? I am taking 2 cloves raw organic garlic, split a bit, and shoving them in his food.
> 
> My dog began getting garlic about the same time this thread was started, and so far so good. Flies and sqeeters don't seem to bother, either.



I to use fresh garlic with great results! Besides helping to repel bugs, Garlic is naturally anti-parasitic, anti-fungal and anti-bacterial!

Here are some feeding guidelines per Dr. Karen Becker, DVM
*Small dogs ¼ to ½ clove/day
*Medium dogs a ½ to 1 clove daily
*45-70# = 1 clove or ½ clove 2 x daily
*75-90# = 1 clove 2 x daily
*over 100# = 1 ½ cloves 2 x daily

Some grocery stores carry containers of fresh garlic cloves already peeled, so all you have to do is put cloves thru the garlic slicer!

Here are a couple of CAUTIONS per www.natural-dog-health-remedies: Garlic should NOT be fed to pets with a pre-existing anemic condition or to those scheduled for surgery. Also, young puppies before six to eight weeks of age should NOT be given garlic because they do not begin reproducing new blood cells until after 6-8 weeks. 

I also use Essential Oil combinations to keep those pesky critter's away!


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## Anubis_Star

Garlic, like all plants in the allium family (onions), can be extremely toxic. It can cause gastroenteritis, hemolytic anemia, and death if not caught in time (treatment would cost thousands and involve blood transfusions) 

Dogs and cats do not break down and digest garlic like we do. I would not feed daily garlic, or any garlic, to my pet



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## Momto2GSDs

Anubis_Star said:


> Garlic, like all plants in the allium family (onions), can be extremely toxic. It can cause gastroenteritis, hemolytic anemia, and death if not caught in time (treatment would cost thousands and involve blood transfusions)
> 
> Dogs and cats do not break down and digest garlic like we do. I would not feed daily garlic, or any garlic, to my pet
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


True, if not used correctly. Here are some comments and sites with info about garlic.

Per: www.natural-dog-health-remedies: The key to safe use of garlic on dogs is the *dosage level* and *frequency of use*. For a dog to develop Heinz-body anemia, he would have to eat over 0.5% of his body weight in onions to even begin the oxidative process. However, garlic should NOT be fed to pets with a pre-existing anemic condition or to those scheduled for surgery. Also, young puppies before six to eight weeks of age should NOT be given garlic because they do not begin reproducing new blood cells until after 6-8 weeks. Not all forms of garlic are the same – garlic that has been cooked under high heat (boiled, roasted, sauteed, etc.) is likely to lose its medicinal properties and a high percentage of its nutrients. Allicin, the compound in garlic that gives it the strong odor, is very unstable and dissipates quickly when exposed to air, moisture, or heat.

Per Dr. Karen Becker: “Do not feed onions to dogs or cats as it causes hemolytic anemia. Although garlic is in the same family, pets can ingest small amounts of garlic and reap huge benefits. Garlic is naturally anti-parasitic, anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. Garlic, in small amounts, is a wonderful addition to your pet’s diet.” “Onion toxicity is caused by the metabolite alkaloid n-propyl disulphide which inhibits normal enzyme activity in red blood cells and causes them to denature, producing Heinz body anemia. Garlic is metabolized to allyl propyl disulfide, which does not inhibit red blood cell enzyme activity unless consumed in massive quantities.” 

Per Dr. Pitcairn: “I have not seen problems with garlic in the amounts recommended in the recipes I have used.”

Per http://petremedycharts.blogspot.com/2010/04/is-it-safe-to-give-garlic-to-dogs.html: When used in moderation, garlic can be a healthy supplement. Garlic can be used to stimulate and support immune function, trigger gastric juices for better digestion, encourage the growth of friendly bacteria, and prevent infections. Garlic reduces the risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer as well as improves blood sugar regulation and promotes detoxification. Dr. Lorelei Whitney, M.H., C.Hom Blogger: User Profile: Lorelei Whitney, M.H., C.Hom. 
Search_Pet_Remedy_Charts


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## NancyJ

Show me where garlic in the levels suggested...1-2 cloves a day for most of our dogs, is detrimental to their health. The studies that showed slight damage used approx 1/2lb / day /100lbs of dog .. that is a LOT of garlic.

Too much fish oil is bad for you
Too much calcium is bad for you
Too much of just about anything is......bad

I will keep track of Beau's annual blood work. so far:
RBC=7.1, reference range is 4.8-9.3
Hg=16.9, reference range is 12.1-20.3
HCT = 47, reference range is 36-60


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## Heidigsd

> Garlic, like all plants in the allium family (onions), can be extremely toxic. It can cause gastroenteritis, hemolytic anemia, and death if not caught in time (treatment would cost thousands and involve blood transfusions)
> 
> Dogs and cats do not break down and digest garlic like we do. I would not feed daily garlic, or any garlic, to my pet


I agree...why take the chance? I am not against holistic methods but with garlic I think they caution against it because they don't know how much exactly it takes for a pet to get ill. 

Human Treats, Poison to Pets - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences


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## BowWowMeow

The dangers of topical pesticides prescribed by vets are very well documented. In some cases they have even killed dogs and cats (including two cats that I know of) Warnings abound, even from the notoriously conservative EPA. Why do you take that chance? 

EPA Evaluation of Pet Spot-On Products: Analysis and Mitigation Plan | Pesticides | US EPA


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

BowWowMeow said:


> The dangers of topical pesticides prescribed by vets are very well documented. In some cases they have even killed dogs and cats (including two cats that I know of) Warnings abound, even from the notoriously conservative EPA. Why do you take that chance?
> 
> EPA Evaluation of Pet Spot-On Products: Analysis and Mitigation Plan | Pesticides | US EPA



Don't get me wrong, there's certainly nothing wrong with being cautious but I find it strange that people are so scared of garlic, but meanwhile some of these same people don't blink an eye when putting pesticides on their dogs or on their lawn, where their dogs sniff and walk.

Here is one study where they gave dogs 5 g of whole garlic/kg per day, so that would be about 160 grams for a 70 lb dog, right? If I'm doing my math right, that's about 26 cloves of garlic per day! Please correct me if I didn't calculate that correctly.
Even at that high dosage, no dog developed hemolytic anemia (but the dogs did present Heinz body formation, an increase in erythrocyte- reduced glutathione concentration, and eccentrocytes)

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


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## NancyJ

This is the study that raised the bruhaha-the only one I know of with garlic levels challenged. There is no doubt that onions with their higher levels of these compounds are very toxic to dogs. 

Hematologic changes associated with the appeara... [Am J Vet Res. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

5 mixed breed dogs given the equivalent of 6oz of garlic for an 80lb dog per day (5g/kg) [That is a LOT of garlic! Do the math though, read the extract]
The average clove of garlic is 6 grams (about 0.2 oz)

No dogs developed hemolytic anemia in the study where they were given about 15 times as much garlic as is normally supplemented, though they did show a changes in RBCs.

Looks like we cross posted. Same study, I used an 80lb dog you used 70lbs. I was using 2 cloves for an 80lb dog. Garlic is no internet sensation. We were using it in the 70s and 80s before the internet, before holistic vets and....just folk knowledge of brewers yeast and garlic for a long long time.


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## wildo

Your math is right. I calculate 158.75 grams for that 70 pounds. I find a clove of garlic to be between 4 and 8 grams. So at the least, that's 19.84 cloves/day and at the most, that's 39.69 cloves/day. At any rate- it's significantly more than any reasonable person would even come close to giving!


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## Anubis_Star

The problem with garlic is that long term studies havent accurately been done. A large quantity would likely need to be consumed to cause toxic problems. But the long term effects of feeding it daily isnt completely understood. 

Would I be concerned giving my dog 2 cloves a day? Yes, I wouldnt do it. Because it probably wont happen. But there's still a decent chance it COULD. 

I just find it somewhat ironic the fear of vaccines, yet you'll give garlic when in my mind the risks are about the same. If not worse for garlic because we just dont know exactly how much is toxic to each individual dog.

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## BowWowMeow

Yet you regularly apply toxic PESTICIDES to your dogs and recommend others do the same despite the fact that they have proven to be dangerous to animals even sometimes in "safe" doses. Even though there's a low probability, your dog could be one of those animals who suffers serious side effects. And there's a much higher probability that your dog will suffer less serious side effects. 

Massie and Chama were on garlic for the majority of their life (and Chama lived to be 14+) with no problems. Rafi has been on it for 6 years--no problems. Basu was on it for 6 years with no problems. I have friends whose dogs have been on it for their entire lives with no problems. 

I have an equal number of friends who use topical pesticides on their dogs and cats. One's cat is dead because of topical pesticides, others have dogs who had seizures, suffered chemical burns and that's just off the top of my head. Someone just posted on this board today about their dog throwing up after their first dose of Triflexis. We don't even know how these pesticides are contributing to the astronomical increase in the cancer rate, allergies, etc. in dogs because no longterm studies will ever be funded on adverse effects as long as they continue to make big money for big pharma.


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## Anubis_Star

I apply no "pesticides" to my pets. No flea prevention. I dont even do HW preventative, although I would if I lived in an area with higher incidence. Dont put words in mouth. I'll fight my own battles well enough 

many Topical flea preventatives are toxic to cats, yet it's marketed for cats. That should be illegal. We had a cat come in not too long ago lethargic and sick after receiving a topical flea and hw preventative.





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## carmspack

there is nothing wrong with a bit of garlic -- many benefits including being a source of organic sulfur and quercitin which is good for leaky gut .

Show me a commercial kibble that does not have garlic in it !

Garlic is one of the ingredients used as a palatant .  In kibble prior to the kibble being sprayed with fats and appetite stimulants , palatants, the dog would not eat them. Kibble is a multi billion dollar business . There are labs out there testing palatants for dog and cat food . The basic food (or the matrix) might be terrible but if the dog shows interest then that is what is bought .


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## NancyJ

Anubis_Star said:


> The problem with garlic is that long term studies havent accurately been done. A large quantity would likely need to be consumed to cause toxic problems. But the long term effects of feeding it daily isnt completely understood.


Well the problem with Raw is that long term studies have not accurately been done but you feed it...........and AVMA has come out very vocally against it. Don't get me wrong; I would feed it to but have other things going on right now. When I do feed it, it will be from scrap from locally sourced organic (or close to it) meats .. 

Maybe because, like garlic, it makes sense and people have been feeding raw for many years. As I stated before, giving dogs garlic is no new fad!

Of course you won't find the long term studies. Long term studies cost money and are funded by industry. Why would they choose to fund something that won't give them results that could help their bottom line?

Immunization studies? Where are the long term studies there? Drug studies? Just anectdotal info....reactions get reported and when they trip a threshold..hmmm....maybe somthing is going wrong....and the major lepto vaccine did its challenge study only 3 weeks after the vaccine was given. Plenty of vaccine reactions out there...I know my company does a lot of their own validation testing of diagnostic tests because the numbers done by the pharmaceutical company creating the test are statistically too low for our statistician, whose career was in clinical trial development with pharma. Sometimes we have rejected tests as an end user and they wound up back on the "drawing board". I once found an algorithm error that would have resulted in a repeat reactive HIV test coming out as ok. Thank you pharma. 

I just think it rather odd that we are holding up a food that has safely been given to dogs for years in small quantities because there have been no long term studies...... (I found one case of garlic poisoning where a schnauzer ate a bunch of roasted garlic in the pub med articles. I know when I roast garlic, I don't do one clove but do several entire bulbs worth)

Food studies. Ever look at what AAFCO calls a feeding trial or the research behind a lot of those numbers or even the duration of an AAFCO trial...numbers created while dogs were fed corn based foods and grains are known to impact nutrient absorption by the gut? Part of this is why I do an annual CBC/Chem/Urinalysis with my dog(s.).....but even there, the reference values are based on dogs eating commercial dog food! 

So, anyway,it is hard to fly in the face of what we are told by doctors- but then I look at my mother, a stroke patient who is now in the hospice phase of things, and see the hospice doctor taking her off drugs prescribed by other doctors and she is improving...so much that she may not recertify for hospice next time!.....many of her problems have been caused by the very cocktail of drugs prescribed to help her. Such is the state of medicine and pharmaceutical wizardry. .... . and, yes, a certain amount of distrust as a chemist knowing most pre med students took "dumbed down" versions of some of the chemistry classes  and cheated like mad during tests because of the competition.


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## Mrs.K

Makes you wonder how people could have possibly owned and fed dogs before there was kibbles...

I remember my Dad saying the pretty much put all scraps into a big pot and boiled it. Leftover meat was either boiled/cooked or fed raw as it was. 
He remembers the time before there was kibbles for dogs...


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## carmspack

Jocoyn , so right ! 

The dog would have to eat massive doses of garlic to have any problem.
For those of you who are lucky enough to have ramps -- the dogs will locate them . The head goes down and they are pulling on the greens. Seasonal delicacy. 

Toxicity ? WATER can be toxic. Too much and the electrolytes (sodium) is unbalanced .


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## BowWowMeow

Sorry, Annubis Star: my friend's cat died from a topical flea/tick application and I have seen dogs with burns on their back so it's a sore spot for me because vets recommend them as if they are completely safe. 

Some people don't have the option of doing nothing. Tick diseases are far more dangerous than using garlic in a dog.


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## NancyJ

Even if you think they are safe......they take time to work, and some diseases can be transmitted very quickly (like Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever) and others take time (like Lyme disease) also not all tick medicines work on all species of ticks. Nice chart here. I would rather prevent the attachment in the first place. I can check for them every day.

Tick Product Comparison


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## Lauri & The Gang

Does anyone know if cooking the garlic powder will change it's effectiveness? I have one dog that just won't eat the stuff. I was breaking up the tablets and putting the pieces inside her chicken hearts - but then she stopped eating the hearts!

Now she has to 'inspect' her food before she will eat it and if it has garlic in it - forget it.

I thought I might try using the powdered stuff to make some cookies and see if she will eat those.


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## NancyJ

I would contact Springtime directly and see what they say!


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## David Taggart

I forcefully give Lucy 5-6 cloves of fresh garlic a week during all the summer long. It proved to be very good for her shiny coat as well as worm prevention. What I know - it works as fresh whole cloves put into throat. Any thermal treatment destroys its vitaminal structure and changes character of its stinky substance the worms detest.


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## Momto2GSDs

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Does anyone know if cooking the garlic powder will change it's effectiveness? I have one dog that just won't eat the stuff. I was breaking up the tablets and putting the pieces inside her chicken hearts - but then she stopped eating the hearts!
> 
> Now she has to 'inspect' her food before she will eat it and if it has garlic in it - forget it.
> 
> I thought I might try using the powdered stuff to make some cookies and see if she will eat those.


Hi Laurie,
Different lenghts of heating or cooking time of garlic (from 60 seconds to 10 minuets) changes the properties but I don't know what temp would change the therapeutic effects if you are using it for flea/tick prevention.
As for making cookies with it, I think you would have to put an awful lot of the powder into your cookie mixture to get the right amount into each cookie for the effect needed. 
You could try an "order free aged kyolic extract" in her meat or piece of cheese: Wakunaga - Kyolic, Cardiovascular, Formula 100, 200 Tablets - iHerb.com 
petremedycharts.com gives the following recommendation: Small dogs get 1/2 capsule Aged Extract daily, with the dosage increasing with the pet's size, ranging up to 2 capsules given in a split dose, depending on the dogs weight.
Maybe this would help "fool" your finicky one!  Good luck!


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## carmspack

the active ingredient in garlic is allicin and that is destroyed by heat .


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## DJEtzel

I've been using Bug off garlic for all of Frag's life... I've never found a tick on any of my dogs, while some members at the park are counting 12 in one outing on their dogs! 

My three go through about one 2.5lb jar a year, maybe only 3/4 of the year. I admit I do forget every once in a while to give it to them or stop if they're being boarded somewhere and won't be going outside much.


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## NancyJ

Beau is still clear! And I am beginning to feel like I live in a tropical rainforest. 6 inches since Friday. Bug-gy


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## onyx'girl

Knocking on wood here....so far I've not found any ticks on my dogs. I give one scoop a day for each dog of the bug off garlic. Ticks/mosquito's are really bad this year! 
There's a tick boom in Michigan - Here are 5 things you should know | Michigan Radio


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## NancyJ

I am actually planning on buying garlic for ME. The kyolic brand looks interesting but I need to see if it is all ad hype or really good stuff. Suggestions?

LOL the other day I was killing weeds with 5% vinegar and dawn (it really does work if you can hit them when the sun is shining) and the bugs were going crazy. Put the pressure wand on my neck and pulled the trigger - viola - no-mo-bugs. Vinegar is pretty good short term repellant....I know my roundup using neighbors must think me a nut!

I did notice when I sprinkled garlic over my yard to deter the chipmunks (epic fail but putting dog hair in my garden seems to be helping) that the mosquito and bug in general population seemed to really drop!


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## BowWowMeow

Tick free for Rafi too and we have been walking daily in wet, high grass.


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## NancyJ

No wonder they scare us with how bad it is to give garlic (based on studies with massive quantities, not what we are actually giving) !! Look at all the money in flea and tick products!!!...........the irony being we knew about garlic YEARS ago.


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## andreaB

Started Bug Off last week. I'm really excited about it. Tick are terrible this year, even with advetix I founded one every second day on my boy.Plus I hate put than chemical stuff on him


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## BowWowMeow

I have never used topical pesticides and have made it through several bad flea seasons (and successfully gotten rid of the fleas). Yes, it was more work but I can only imagine what those pesticides are doing to our animals...and our environment...


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## onyx'girl

food grade DE is another option for fleas and tick management on property(and on the animal sparingly!). I don't know why it isn't utilized more often.


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## BowWowMeow

The one year I had a really bad infestation I used DE in the house and nematodes in the yard.


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## NancyJ

I do spray preventively with nematodes and use DE around the foundation of my house.


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## RocketDog

jocoyn said:


> Well I have had failures before on Frontline and have heard of failures with Advantix.
> To me flea and tick inspections mean daily detailed inspections.
> And, the quicker you get the tick off, the less likely the infection.
> If we start getting ticks I will move to preventic which is very effective.
> Advantix II has permethrin - it is not ok to put it on human skin but not sure why it is ok to put it on dogs' skin.


I have had failure the "last" week out of the month with Advantix last year. I pulled 5 ticks off of Rocket in the last 6 days and two were big. Ugh. I broke down and bought Advantix II again the day of the last one. I just applied it, as they're in my backyard and plus, we're going backpacking in a couple weeks. I just hiked him out in the woods yesterday too, but brushed and brushed and hopefully the Advantix was working. 

I am going to try the Springtime. So I'm getting from this thread that the powder is the best? Do I sprinkle it on his food then? Anyone's dog refused to eat it? I really don't like the Advantix at all, I was just more worried about the ticks. I'd really like a natural alternative. 

Again, no smell from the garlic, or just a slight one?


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## carmspack

hey , garlic is so good for many reasons . Big source of organic sulfur , along with MSM , so good for an anti-demodex mites and internal parasites . Garlic is good for digestion , stimulates appetite . 

Ontario has some big time garlic fans including Ted Maczka who is familiar to anyone who has gone to the Royal Winter Fair where he has been a regular for the past 20 years. 
You can buy bulbs from him to plant in the fall for a mid summer harvest . 

and an annual garlic festival held at the Brick Works market every Sept . - Toronto Garlic Festival

had to laugh at "LOL the other day I was killing weeds with 5% vinegar and dawn (it really does work if you can hit them when the sun is shining) "

doing some experimental plots using different natural herbicides .
I was so lucky to find Munger's 20% Horticultural Vinegar at the Durham Farmers Co-Op . Your household vinegar is only 5% , Pickling is 7 % , which is good on weeds that are tender and just emerging. For more mature and some resistant grasses such as crab you will need 20% , possibly a second application on a warm dry day. 

So my patches are Vinegar , and two patches using Soybean oil , one with cedar oil , one with clove oil.

the Vinegar is strong in scent . The yard smells like a salad bowl .

Today rain , again. Looking out from kitchen window we see the coyote come out of the pine trees , take 5 steps into the open field, sniff the vinegar coming from the house garden area , stop, take a few steps into the field, stop , sniff again and then turned tail into the trees and away. 

Too much rain . All the spraying might have been wrecked by dilution although we did have 12 hours of dry.


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## NancyJ

I have two bottles of the 20%..going to attack the poison ivy with it if it ever stops raining! The poison oak is taken by the 5%...The Bermuda grass is going with the 5%...The vinegar does not kill "the root" of a persistent weed, but repeated applications seem to do the trick. It is the voles and the chipmunks doing me in. So devasated last night to see the tomato which had 5 golfball sized tomatoes started on it reduced to a rootless mass. ( I assume the vole because of the holes I keep finding)--I had saved some others by pruning and one by plunging a cutting into a glass of water but it remains to be seen if "angie" will survive. I am certain I could keep a cutting but....back to garlic, ticks, and dogs.

EDIT. I guess it is all related because I don't want to expose the dog to herbicides in the yard or insecticides either.


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## NancyJ

SCORE = Tick 1
On Sunday I had reduced him to 1 scoop of garlic; I am going back to 2 today
I found a Brown Dog Tick on his ear today.


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## Mrs.K

Mine get two scoops per day too. They actually love it. 

As for me, I never found a single tick on my body, nor did I ever had one. I love to cook with Garlic. While all the others use DEET and whatnot, I never had an issue, even when I went out with a short sleeve shirt. Never a single tick. But again, I cook with lots of Garlic. LOL


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## Sunflowers

Do all of you who use garlic use the same brand, and does the dog have any odor from it?


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## onyx'girl

This is what I use, and no, I can't smell it on my dogs. Bug Off Garlic for Dogs | Natural Flea and Tick Repellent | Springtime, Inc.

I feed raw and mix it into their meal, they are not into garlic anymore, it takes them awhile to eat as they cringe! One meal is a garlic meal one is without/I add in the coconut oil/honey/yogurt to the plain meal.


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## NancyJ

I am using the springtime bug off because it is low temperature dried and seems to have the best reviews.


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## wildo

RocketDog said:


> I am going to try the Springtime. So I'm getting from this thread that the powder is the best? Do I sprinkle it on his food then? Anyone's dog refused to eat it? I really don't like the Advantix at all, I was just more worried about the ticks. I'd really like a natural alternative.
> 
> Again, no smell from the garlic, or just a slight one?


Yes, powder is probably the best, while there have been a few comments here saying they had to go to the capsules when the dog wouldn't eat the powder- also vice-versa. Generally speaking, I think most of us are having the most luck with powder. Pimg loves it; Jinks does not. He tolerates it, but I don't think he likes the garlic much.

Yep- just sprinkle it on the food. Smell? Well yes- your kitchen (and feeding area) will smell like a pizza shop for a little while around feeding time. That's the biggest disadvantage in my mind.

My dogs both get 1 scoop / day.


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## NancyJ

I don't smell it on his coat. I do when I am preparing food and on his breath afterwards. I have not had a problem with getting Beau to eat it. Well after I found the one tick I did a detailed whole body search then combed him out with the slicker (to see if any small ones were on him and not embedded) as well as checked very careful between the toes and found no more.


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## RocketDog

The directions say "Better" is 2 scoops per 60 lbs, and "Best" 3 scoops per 60 lbs (on the website). Rocket is about 82. So, right now, in the thick of the ticks, wouldn't I want to use 4 scoops?

Sounds like you all are using less. Rocket's coat is very thick. I am afraid to miss one. 

I HATE TICKS.


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## carmspack

here is a repellant offered in the Dogs Naturally magazine on-line shop http://ineedthat.corecommerce.com/Dr-B-s-Pet-Peeve-Plus.htmlp 
I know how particular they are , and having made a field tested repellant myself , this is a good product.


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## wildo

RocketDog said:


> The directions say "Better" is 2 scoops per 60 lbs, and "Best" 3 scoops per 60 lbs (on the website). Rocket is about 82. So, right now, in the thick of the ticks, wouldn't I want to use 4 scoops?
> 
> Sounds like you all are using less. Rocket's coat is very thick. I am afraid to miss one.
> 
> I HATE TICKS.


Pimg is 69 pounds with a very thick plush coat. I use half of a scoop, twice a day (total of one scoop per day). I also use Buck Mountain Parasite Dust topically across her back. While we haven't gone crazy in brush or anything, we have been in thick grass, out in the country, etc. I have yet to find a tick after starting on this. I'll add that I also use Cedercide spray if we're going into a place that I think would be particularly prone to ticks (or even just annoying bugs like gnats).

I'm sure that 2, or 3, or perhaps even 4 scoops is better, but so far, I've not had to use that much. Granted, for an 82 pound dog, I'd likely be using more than a scoop.

[EDIT]- interestingly (probably at a fault) Jinks is only 43 pounds and I still use half a scoop, twice a day on him-- same dosage as Pimg. I really should either reduce the amount I feed Jinks, or increase the amount I feed Pimg. That's a huge weight discrepancy to be using the same dosage. But hey- it's working. And Jinks seems to find great pleasure in walking through or laying in tall weeds and stuff. Pimg much more sensibly sticks to the trail. :rofl:


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## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> here is a repellant offered in the Dogs Naturally magazine on-line shop http://ineedthat.corecommerce.com/Dr-B-s-Pet-Peeve-Plus.htmlp
> I know how particular they are , and having made a field tested repellant myself , this is a good product.


Carmen, the link doesn't work for me. I'm sure I can find it if I visit that site, but what product am I looking for?


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## carmspack

try again Dr-B-s-Pet-Peeve-Plus


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## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> try again Dr-B-s-Pet-Peeve-Plus



Thanks. I have almost an acre down below my lawn of natural area and this is where the majority of his ticks come from. He's pretty good about staying on trails when we hike, so he actually doesn't get them from hiking as much as he gets them from investigating and "surveying" *his* property.  Still the same end result though--every day he's exposed. 

The last tick I pulled off, the bigger one, took a chunk of skin with it and it bled a lot (which I guess is a good thing, to wash out bacteria). I put rubbing alcohol on them and then a topical antibiotic cream.


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## jae

peanut butter and garlic sammiches. a new favorite among my canines.

Watch out you don't leave garlic on your side of the cut... blegh not so tasty really


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## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> I am using the springtime bug off because it is low temperature dried and seems to have the best reviews.


Yep, using the Springtime Bug Off too. Much cheaper for four/five dogs than Advantix.


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## KZoppa

just ordered my first bottle of bug off garlic. Here's to hoping it works! heckuva lot cheaper than useless frontline.


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## NancyJ

June 11=1 tick. brown dog - ear
June 22 = two ticks, brown dog and american dog - ear and shoulder blade


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## kiya

Crawling or feasting on your dogs?


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## NancyJ

All three were attached when they were removed. Not too happy with that but then I am seeing folks finding ticks on dogs being treated with heavy duty chemicals, too.


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## gsdsar

It's a horrible tick year. I can't hike for 5 minutes without finding a tick. Today I was sitting in a concrete parking lot and found one crawling up my leg. 


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## Anergyne

I really want to try this. Chief is up for new flea/tick/hw treatment next week though. I know that isn't enough time for the garlic to take affect. Would you guys recommend a topical or collar to help hold them off and start on the garlic ASAP? 

We have been avoiding the dog parks and I live in an apartment complex so the only running around is in the country and on friend's land that's full of wildlife. Tick are already an issue for us this year.


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## Mrs.K

****...where do you all live that it is so bad....maybe I am just really lucky...

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## Courtney

Mrs.K said:


> ****...where do you all live that it is so bad....maybe I am just really lucky...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


*knock on wood* I have never found a tick on Rusty, also feeling lucky. We check him over after every hike. My neighbor finds them on her dog sometimes. Perhaps that DE we put down every summer is working. I shared some of mine with her. I can get a 40 pound bag for $20. at our local feed store.


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## RocketDog

jocoyn said:


> All three were attached when they were removed. Not too happy with that but then I am seeing folks finding ticks on dogs being treated with heavy duty chemicals, too.



I applied Advantix II to Rocket June 7th. I found and pulled a tick off last night--it had to have been on there for at least a day or day and a half, as it was probably a quarter inch in diameter.  

In heavy season I seem to only get about 3 weeks out of it.


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## NancyJ

Well in a pure world I would not muddy the waters but I can't stand there and do nothing more. This am the mosquitoes were AWFUL (today will be mosquito dunks in the intermittent creek and garlic in the yard) so I sprayed him down with water/vinegar.


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## Mrs.K

Nala is Lyme etc. Negative. Just had the test done today. To this point, I have not even found a Lymph crawling up on them. All are on 2-3 scoops a day.


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## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> Well in a pure world I would not muddy the waters but I can't stand there and do nothing more. This am the mosquitoes were AWFUL (today will be mosquito dunks in the intermittent creek and garlic in the yard) so I sprayed him down with water/vinegar.


How do you do that? Garlic in the yard? Vinegar, etc. My yard is HUGE. So how do you actually do that? The Mosquitos are not too bad compared to other places but I guess it wouldn't hurt to use preventetive measures. Is that it? http://www.mosquitobarrier.com/


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## carmspack

there was a lot of positive talk about this product .

In the US it is sold under the name Tickz - safe , holistic, tested flea and tick repellant Tickz | Tick Treatment For Dogs, Pet Tick Treatment | PetzLife

In Canada it is sold under the name Your Dogs Best Friend .


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## NancyJ

MrsK that looks like an interesting product. I was actually thinking of crushing cloves of garlic and soaking in vegetable oil and making a spray........But I just bought one of the huge containers of spice garlic at costco to sprinklie in the yard. I have 0.4 acre but I only do the back which I guess is about 0.3 acre (think cul de sac)


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## carmspack

put garlic through your juicer , much more potent than soaking crushed garlic cloves.
organic farmers use agricultural soybean oil . "*.* *Organic soy oil*—Research cited in _The New England Journal of Medicine_ found that repellents made of soybean oil are *just as effective as DEET-containing repellents*. Soy oil is inexpensive and easy to find, making it an excellent choice. Plus, it is an excellent body moisturizer. As an aside, research shows that an ingredient in soy can slow the growth of body hair when applied topically. Choose organic soy oil if possible since many soy crops are now genetically-modified


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## NancyJ

Ooooh I can get organic soy oil at whole foods!


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## Freestep

I have never had much faith in "natural" flea/tick repellents like garlic or brewers' yeast. 

Essential oils are good as insect repellents, but only last a short while and need to be applied several times a day. I made an essential oil mixture for my horse as a fly repellent, it worked for maybe an hour or two and the horse hated the smell of it.

NEEM is good but it tends to leave a greasy film.

I have a client who is dead-set against Western medicine and only uses "natural" treatments for her pets. No vaccines, no flea control, no heartworm control, no nothing. I feel SO sorry for her cats... they are constantly sickly, always covered with fleas, and just look in rough condition all the time with poor coats, runny nose and eyes, and they seem depressed. She brings them in to be bathed with her NEEM shampoo, which is awful and leaves the coats greasy and sticky. 

Now she has a little Pomeranian that she "rescued" from someone, and that dog is a hot mess. I am not allowed to use any of my products on the poor thing, I have to use the awful shampoo that the owner brings, and the dog has the worst skin and coat I've ever seen on a Pom--I don't know how it's possible, but the skin is oily and flaky at the same time, and the coat is patchy and thin; what fur there is is constantly matted. Since the owner is allergic to everything, the only thing I could do for the poor dog was give her a hot oil treatment with coconut oil, brush out the matted fur and hope for the best.










Anyway. I don't have anything against natural/holistic products and methods, it's just that most of the pets I see whose owners eschew anything Western are in very poor condition.


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## NancyJ

Well, I sure am seeing many people reporting more ticks and fleas on their dogs with various insecticide products than I have seen using this approach. I am sold. My worst "flea" issue ever was when we were using frontline. 

If you were not on the other side of the country I would bring Beau over with his luxuriant shiny thick coat, no bugs, no hot spots ever, and no doggy odor and that is without bathing other than the lakes and rinsing with the hose if he is really covered in mud, (and mind you he is outside all day in the muggy south). I do use HW preventive, we do vaccinate minimally and do titers.


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## Freestep

It's true, even the insecticidal spot-on treatments fail where fleas become resistant. I was never a huge fan of Frontline for fleas--it seems to keep ticks from attaching, but doesn't control fleas as well as Advantage, IMO. 

I am sure that garlic added to the diet will not hurt the dog, and it may make their skin and coats beautiful and their blood taste less appealing to fleas, who knows? All I know is that it never worked for me to get rid of fleas, I once had a flea-allergic dog and the garlic/brewers' yeast powder I tried didn't help. There may be new and better products out there now, but from what I've seen in my grooming salon, garlic doesn't seem to work for the animals I've seen in flea-infested areas, but if it works for you, by all means, keep doing it! It's just that I have clients asking me about "natural" flea control all the time, and I try to give good advice based on what I've seen. 

I once put myself on a Kyolic regimen. It didn't do much for me besides give me diarrhea. Other folks swear by it.


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## carmspack

Soybean oil is made from soybeans and is a common ingredient in food.8 About 13 million pounds of soybean oil are consumed by Americans every year, mostly in baked goods, fried foods, and salad dressings.16
When USDA researchers tested the success of a soybean oil repellent, they found that it provided protection from bites between 5 and 8 hours, depending on the species of mosquito they studied.2 Another study found that a soybean-oil based repellent protected against mosquito bites for about 1 1/2 hours.3
Evaluations of soybean oil used as a pesticide have found few hazards. EPA reported that "it is not likely to result in adverse human health effects, based upon available reports and information."8 In a more detailed analysis, Canada's PMRA noted a study showing that blood cholesterol levels increased in laboratory animals fed a diet high in soybean oil. Another study showed that the incidence of breast tumors increased in laboratory animals infected with a tumor virus and fed a high-soybean-oil diet. These effects occurred when over 15 percent of the diet was soybean oil.17
Soybean oil was first registered for use as an insecticide and miticide (a pesticide used to kill mites) in 1959.8 Soybean oil pesticides are now exempt from registration requirements as "minimum risk pesticides," The label of the product is required to identify all ingredients.7
For examples of soybean oil-based mosquito repellents, see http://www.biteblocker.com.


----------



## NancyJ

This is fascinating. On June 22 I pulled that engorged tick off of Beau and sealed in a double zip baggie. 

I ordered a really good magnifying glass and pulled out the bag to verify my "identification"

Lo and behold, she is laying eggs. (shiver).....so I am going to keep watching. Obvoiusly the bag won't be opened and I am actually going to cover the seal with packing tape but....it is truly amazing.There are several different clusters.


----------



## GatorBytes

jocoyn said:


> This is fascinating. On June 22 I pulled that engorged tick off of Beau and sealed in a double zip baggie.
> 
> I ordered a really good magnifying glass and pulled out the bag to verify my "identification"
> 
> Lo and behold, she is laying eggs. (shiver).....so I am going to keep watching. Obvoiusly the bag won't be opened and I am actually going to cover the seal with packing tape but....it is truly amazing.There are several different clusters.


...What color are the eggs? Did you determine the species of tick? Deer or dog?


----------



## NancyJ

My identification was definitely a dog tick but I needed the magnifying glass to tell me brown dog, or dog tick but the head is covered in eggs so I can't tell for sure.

The eggs are a coppery brown.


----------



## NancyJ

Today I found an adult female American Dog Tick climbing up my toilet. It was not on the dog. I am thinking maybe we are seeing these from the chipmunks I am trying to eradicate as rodents are the host for the nymph stage. From what I have read, the brown dog tick will infest a home but the American Dog Tick is an outdoors creature. It is clearly the latter. Since there are no signs of rodents in the house I would guess it hitched a ride in and fell off. The 20x pocket magnifier I bought has been a helpful tool indeed as well as various tick identification charts. The Gulf Coast tick looks close but has much longer mouthparts than the American Dog Tick.



http://counties.cce.cornell.edu/chemung/agriculture/publications/ticks.pdf


----------



## jae

want to share an observation with yall

last night at dusk, these midge flies (or something, sand flies? i'm no biologist) and sqeeters were swarming around. the dogs had had enough, so they were just hanging around. what i notice pretty much immediately is that there are a mass of flies on my foster and on all the other dogs tail base and underneath, crawling, flocking, etc. meanwhile my dog, he is relatively fly free, there were a few, but it was practically nothing compared to them. i am sure that this translates to other parasites and bugs.

funny enough i was chatting up some other dog owners and frontline came up, i said i do garlic, of course they told me toxic etc. so i pointed out the bugs, i doubt it made believers out of them. but it made me feel good that garlic does look like it works.


----------



## NancyJ

Last night at search training. Was at a teammates home.

He pulls 2-3 ticks a day off of his dog and uses Revolution and the Scalibor collar. 

Checked Beau last night, then a thorough check this morning followed up by a complete brush out to inspect the collected hair. Completely clear! People were pulling ticks off themselves left and right.

I do think we need two scoops because when I was giving one scoop he did pick up a few ticks (3) which is all we have had so far this year.


----------



## LisaT

Freestep said:


> Anyway. I don't have anything against natural/holistic products and methods, it's just that most of the pets I see whose owners eschew anything Western are in very poor condition.


?????? You must be hanging out with the wrong people! 

Jocoyn, can you recap what your current protocol is?


----------



## NancyJ

LisaT said:


> ?????? You must be hanging out with the wrong people!
> 
> Jocoyn, can you recap what your current protocol is?


Basically I went up to two scoops of springtime garlic a day after I found three ticks using one scoop. My yard is treated with nematodes and I use diatomaceous earth around the foundation but not so much. We go into a lot of woods with the search team. This weekend we were in an area where the humans had to follow the deer trails to get through some of the vegetation. Definitely areas that harbor wildlife and ticks. I am really impressed.

I do a twice daily tick check. The morning check is more thorough than the evening check and for that one I am feeling all the "special spots" around and behind ears, neck, shoulders, armpits, groin, paws then I do a comb out with a slicker and inspect each wad of hair for ticks and fleas. I also roll him over and check his belly for fleas. .... at night I just check the special spots. That also counts for a go over for lumps bumps cuts etc.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

I'm glad that the garlic is working for your dog! I've had Mikko on two scoops for a few months. We went hiking Friday which was the first real test (lots of tall grass areas to walk through). I pulled 7 ticks off of him; most of them were attached


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## NancyJ

Wow. I wonder what the deal is. Do you know what KIND of ticks?
I wonder if some varieties are simply more resistant than others?

For example, I know the lone star tick is more inclined to bite people and the dog ticks not so much but love the dogs.

You have gulf coast ticks down there. I actually bought a lighted 20x magnifying loupe so I could ID whatever I find.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

jocoyn said:


> Wow. I wonder what the deal is. Do you know what KIND of ticks?
> I wonder if some varieties are simply more resistant than others?
> 
> For example, I know the lone star tick is more inclined to bite people and the dog ticks not so much but love the dogs.
> 
> You have gulf coast ticks down there. I actually bought a lighted 20x magnifying loupe so I could ID whatever I find.


I'm not sure. I think maybe lone star ticks. They were a light reddish brown color with a darker spot in the middle. I also had several on me. I sprayed both of us with an essential oil spray beforehand as well.


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## NancyJ

I love this site. I have not been spraying him with anything because I wonder if odors could cancel each other out?

TickEncounter Resource Center > Tick Identification


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

jocoyn said:


> I love this site. I have not been spraying him with anything because I wonder if odors could cancel each other out?
> 
> TickEncounter Resource Center > Tick Identification



Hmmm, I will test that out next time we go and not spray him with anything. The spray obviously didn't work anyway since I had several ticks on me as well. Looking at that chart, I'm pretty sure they were lone star ticks, as their legs were lighter in color as well. Ugh, such nasty creatures.


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## LisaT

Thanks Nancy.

Do you worry at all about high doses of garlic in a dog that might have underlying tbd, where the red blood cells might not be functioning correctly???

I just can't bring myself to use an insecticide on Jazz.


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## NancyJ

Well, I don't know....I figure I run a tick panel every year as well as a blood panel...just SOP for me.


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## LisaT

Okay, thanks.


----------



## KZoppa

I've been using the bug off garlic in chewable form for Shasta and Dax. Shasta can go outside and nothing. No flies, no mosquitoes, nothing. Dax goes out and you see the mosquitoes swarming around him. I haven't seen him scratching or doing more than flicking his ears when he's out and he always comes back in clean so I think the chewables are working great for us. I'm considering getting the granules and seeing if that works better for Dax. I know mosquitoes are attracted to darker colors so I'm wondering if that has something to do with why I see them all around him and not Shasta since he's mostly black these days while Shasta is lighter.


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## Gharrissc

I've tried the garlic with my dogs and it gave every one of them an upset stomach. This includes the garlic tabs and powder even. It didn't matter how little the dosage was.


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## Mrs.K

I've got no ticks to report either. However, we went hiking through the woods and all of us (dogs and I) got basically eaten alive by Monster Moskitos and Horseflies. At home, they are barely bothered at all by the flies and Moskitos, but those Moskitos in the woods are much different from what we have out here. They are almost double and triple the size and seriously aggressive. 

BTW. Mine get three to four scoops a day.


----------



## kiya

I spent 4 days upstate with Lakota hiking and her running in and out of tall grasses she did not pick up 1 single tick. On Long Island she would have been infested, guaranteed.
So depending where you are the results will vary.


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## NancyJ

THis is a tickborne virus on the rise carried by deer ticks and woodchuck ticks

Powassan
The tick only has to be attached for FIFTEEN MINUTES to transmit disease!
10-30% of people die
There is no cure; it is an encephalitis virus

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/arbor/arbocase/pow_600px.jpg

Powassan Virus (POW) Basics - Minnesota Dept. of Health

Powassan Encephalitis FAQs - Infectious Disease Epidemiology Program - MeCDC; DHHS Maine


----------



## Mrs.K

Juuuust great, isn't it?


----------



## NancyJ

I pulled my 4th tick of the season off of Beau last weekend. I did not identify. We smashed it. It was in an area heavily populated with wildlife (deer, bears, coyote) in the NC Mountains. It came off very easily with me just pulling it off using my fingers (gingerly holding it)....we spent a 3 day weekend in the woods for 12 hour days and that was the only one.


----------



## RocketDog

I am soooo lucky! Our tick season here was fast this year. Rocket hasn't had a tick since the dry heat started---I only put the one dose of AdvantixII on him and we just got back from our second backpacking trip to the Cabinets in Montana and not a one. None here in the backyard. 

I'm so sorry for those of you who have to deal with them continuously. They're so gross.


----------



## Mrs.K

No ticks. We spent time in high grass and brush but not single tick this year except for those three I pulled off Indra when she came back from Texas. 

But than again we have not been out in the woods as often as in the last two years for obvious reasons. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NancyJ

Well we have had a remarkably flea and tick free summer using the garlic and plenty of time in the woods.

Unfortunately, Beau did have had a different issue with loose stools - (probably between 3 and 4 on the purina poop chart) but no fun to pick up with a bag. After trying all kinds of food changes etc. I stopped the garlic to see if it was causing the problem. Now we are back to a "2".


Looks like it was the culprit. Sigh. Going to give it a few weeks to rest and see if I can maybe titer down to a lower dose.


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## Mesonoxian

It's very interesting reading about all of your experiences with garlic!

For her whole life (7 years this summer), my dog (non-GSD) was on chemical flea/tick preventative (Frontline or Advantix). That changed this spring. I had been researching allergy solutions and came across a few sites talking about the benefits of garlic. I was eager to look into it more and see if it was a viable option for my girl. (The natural solution appealed to me, along with the lower cost!)

While I was still researching, I found a tick on her one day - first ever in her life! - and she was still within the 'active' time for the preventative she was on. As soon as I was comfortable with the information I had gathered, she started her daily doses of garlic(minced) and came off of "conventional" preventatives. We have had no trouble with ticks since then - and this was a _horrible_ year for ticks in my area. 

About a month after starting on the garlic, we had a flea outbreak in the house  (2 dog household, with an additional regular visitor). My girl was on her minced garlic, visitor was on garlic tablets, and the other dog in the house was on Advantix. We found one flea on my girl, 2 on visitor, and a whole host of them on our little guy on Advantix (and he'd had a pretty recent application). After the fleas were taken care of, the little guy was on garlic for awhile, but he really didn't like it (too much of a battle to get it down). He's going to be on garlic tablets instead.

I've had my fair share of "You know you're poisoning your dog, right?" and "Good grief! You give her _garlic_? EVERY day?!?" But I have no intention of changing anytime soon!


----------



## jae

Yesterday, after some tug, dog stopped to sniff something random in the room, and I found a completely engorged tick that must have been shaken off while we played. It was absolutely disgusting, and I popped it between junk mail. It must have been there for at least ten days, that was our last trip to deer/tick territory in the Appalachians. 

Nothing is fool proof, and I was a fool for not being thorough during my searches. He is/was showing no ill effects, regardless, we are off to the vet shortly, but he will be given extra antiseptic herbs (caraway, cardamom, oregeno, rhubarb, mint) and an additional clove of garlic as a precaution against any tick fever.

Check your dogs daily!


----------



## natalie559

It's been a few more months- how are the dogs doing on the garlic?


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## NancyJ

We are not going to start back up until I start seeing ticks again. I am going to a lower dose because it does appear the garlic caused some loose stools.


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## ApselBear

jocoyn said:


> We are not going to start back up until I start seeing ticks again. I am going to a lower dose because it does appear the garlic caused some loose stools.


I'm definitely looking forward to seeing your findings this summer. I'll be making the switch to garlic if you have similar results minus the loose stool. We tend to fight more fleas than ticks lately. 

It'll be tough to compare results with this year's considerably colder winter. What would be awesome is if someone with a similar background, sar/tracking and trips to woodlands, and using something like advantix could do the same regimen as you, and count the ticks they find daily this year. opcorn:


----------



## NancyJ

I will have a good comparison for our climate. We had a colder than normal winter but I am certain not enough to deter the ticks. Only one snow and not a lot of hard freezes.


----------



## ApselBear

jocoyn said:


> I will have a good comparison for our climate. We had a colder than normal winter but I am certain not enough to deter the ticks. Only one snow and not a lot of hard freezes.


Ah good to hear, hoping for the best.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Im interested in this if it works. Is there a link on how to go about treating your dog, doses etc?


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## ApselBear

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im interested in this if it works. Is there a link on how to go about treating your dog, doses etc?


Here's the springtime recc's It seems that 2 scoops of the granulated stuff works on Nancy's 80-85lb GSD, but may cause loose stool.


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## Harry and Lola

Does anyone know the difference between air dried garlic granules and freshly crushed garlic?

I did want to try the Springtime Bug Off Garlic capsules but shipping to Australia is $70 so have decided to go with fresh garlic. 

I have started giving 1/2 clove about 3 times a week for prevention of fleas and ticks. I'm not sure if this is enough or whether they need 1/2 to 1 clove a day? I crush the garlic into some water and let sit for 15 minutes then mix in their raw food.

Also, in the USA do you have paralysis ticks like the ones in Australia, these are deadly and kill many dogs and cats every year.


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## BowWowMeow

Here are my stats (again!):

I have been giving Bug Off to my dogs for 12 years. 

In 12 years I have found a TOTAL of 3 ticks (this is 4 different dogs). 

We spend a lot of time in the woods and in tall grass. Other people who are using pesticides on their dogs get ticks where I live. My dogs do not get ticks. 

So, yes, it does work to repel ticks.


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## Mesonoxian

Per Dr. Pitcairn (Author of "The Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats), the recommended daily doses for fresh garlic by weight are as follows:

10 to 15 pounds: 1/2 clove

20 to 40 pounds: 1 clove

45 to 70 pounds: 2 cloves

75 to 90 pounds: 2 1/2 cloves

100 pounds and over: 3 cloves



From my own research, it seems that to get the maximum benefit, fresh garlic is definitely the best. To release one of the most beneficial components of garlic, Allicin (linked to cancer inhibition), after crushing the cloves, they should sit out for 15-20 minutes. (crushing the garlic releases an amino acid that reacts with an enzyme to form Allicin.) Cooking garlic destroys allicin, but still contains many other beneficial components. 

Powdered garlic and minced garlic (in water, not oil) still have lots of great benefits, but fresh is definitely the garlic king!

Some of the benefits of garlic:
- Provides antifungal, antibacterial, and antiviral effects.
- increases general immune activity
- repels fleas
- studies have linked garlic with cancer inhibition
- (uncooked) lowers cholesterol and blood triglycerides
- contains antioxidants (cooked, raw, and powdered)
- Your dog may smell like they stole the garlic bread! (well, maybe not such a benefit...)


----------



## Harry and Lola

I have read this entire thread and there is not one post from anyone saying garlic poisoned their dog.

If anyone's dog has experienced toxicity with giving garlic, can you post here.


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## NancyJ

We do have tick paralysis here and a host of other diseases.

I think the Springtime folks maintain low temp air drying retains a lot of the allicin compared to methods of drying garlic using heat.


----------



## GatorBytes

About Allicin...

Allicin.com

Allicin itself is considered to be of limited value inside the body and is presently regarded by the scientific community as just a transient compound which rapidly decomposes to other compounds.11

Because allicin is so unstable, once it is generated it readily changes into other compounds. Thus cooking, aging, crushing and otherwise processing garlic causes allicin to be decomposed into other compounds. According to two studies of garlic preparations, allicin decreased to non-detectable amounts within one3 to six4 days. 

Though allicin was considered to be a key compound in garlic in the past, recent scientific findings, including the pharmacokinetics and metabolism of organosulfur compounds in garlic, have revealed that allicin is not biologically active inside of the body.12-14

Contrary to the popular myth that a garlic product must contain allicin to be beneficial, allicin has not been conclusively proven to be responsible for garlic's known health benefits. Most of the garlic or garlic products that have been based to demonstrate garlic health effects do not contain significant amounts of allicin. (Allicin is an odorous and transient garlic compound.)
​


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## NancyJ

Interesting


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## Blitzkrieg1

This has to be given daily?


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## NancyJ

Yes, during flea/tick season


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## dogfaeries

Do you all find that most dogs will eat the garlic? My GSDs are notorious for refusing food. I can see them being pretty good about eating the garlic in their food for about a week, then refusing to eat it at all. Are the granules something you could put in a raw meatball and feed as treats? I'm going to order some of the garlic, but want to have a plan in place first.


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## dogfaeries

Have had the Bug Off granules for about a week now, and I started everyone off with half a scoop. So far everyone really likes it. Gradually going to up everyone's dosage until I finally get to 2 scoops. Ticks are terrible in Oklahoma, so I'm really hoping that this helps.


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## NancyJ

I mentioned I would maintain CBC Results on Beau based on concerns about hemolytic anemia. So far no issues.

This is last year, this time:

RBC= 7.1, reference range is 4.8-9.3
Hemoglobin= 16.9, reference range is 12.1-20.3
Hematocrit = 47, reference range is 36-60

This is this year, Just got the results

RBC= 7.0, reference range is 4.8-9.3
Hemoglobin= 17.0, reference range 12.1 -20.3
Hematocrit = 53, reference range 36-60

Everything else was in range (chemistry and CBC). Platelets were a little low, but then it said that was because the specimen had a platelet clumping which is not uncommon with K3 EDTA tubes, and all tick tests were negative.


----------



## Harry and Lola

Very good to hear, how long has he been on the garlic now?

Lola and Harry have been on fresh garlic every day (mostly) for 2 months now, no fleas or ticks.


----------



## NancyJ

This is our 2nd year. I did take off for some of the winter.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I have to start Rafi on garlic. It has been so cold here though that it seems weird but I know the ticks will be out soon (if not already).


----------



## David Winners

Thanks for the hugely informative thread Nancy. I've been considering getting away from all the chemicals and I'm going to give garlic a try. I think I'll stick with the real stuff. It's cheap and a staple in our house anyways. I may cool air dehydrate it and see how that works.

David Winners


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## NancyJ

Springtime does have some articles on their process and why air dried garlic is better (in their opinion) than fresh. It is also cheaper than just buying garlic.

I have added garlic to my own regimen (Kyolic) and we will see how that works.


----------



## BowWowMeow

David Winners said:


> Thanks for the hugely informative thread Nancy. I've been considering getting away from all the chemicals and I'm going to give garlic a try. I think I'll stick with the real stuff. It's cheap and a staple in our house anyways. I may cool air dehydrate it and see how that works.
> 
> David Winners


I actually tried fresh garlic for several years before switching to Bug Off. While my dogs were getting fresh garlic they still got ticks.


----------



## eddie1976E

is the garlic supposed to keep the ticks from getting on the dog or attaching? 

Thanks


----------



## readaboutdogs

I started Hooch on the chewable tabs of bug off last month. Seemed like it was doing pretty good as I was out cutting brush off the fence line couple weeks ago and found 4 ticks on me but none on Hooch! I'm really slowly increasing, haven't got up to full dose yet, and I did find 4 ticks on him this morning. So maybe increase a little faster? Was tring to avoid stomach issues since he stays in house while I'm at work! Does anyone else use the chewables? I have 4 bottles so will have to go with these. Hooch weighs like 75 pounds.


----------



## NancyJ

Don't use the chewables but I would check with the folks at Springtime about dose level and how long it takes. I do know higher levels are more effective.


----------



## BowWowMeow

The garlic keeps the ticks from getting on the dog. 

It usually takes 3 weeks to build up in the system after you are up to the full dose. I don't use the chewables because the powder is more potent.


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## eddie1976E

How safe is this for puppies? And what would be the dose for a 12wk old pup? 

thanks


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## Bear L

I feed two scoops a day for my two dogs who weighs in the 50 lbs range and after a hike in the woods or trails they will still have ticks. I've been feeding over a year. It doesn't work perfect in tick season but it does seem to ward off some and keep most from latching (they just kind of roam around on their hair). 

The best holistic remedy I found for ticks and fleas are the herbal sprays that I made myself. They work 100% but they require me to spray every inch of them for every outing. The dogs aren't a fan and run from me when they see the bottle out.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I also give a lot of other supplements and feed raw. I wonder if it's a combination of things?


----------



## NancyJ

Chron Log - I know ticks are biting.

Yesterday - SC Mountains near NC border - Woods/Tall grass. No ticks
Today - SC SE of Greenville Woods/Tall Grass. 1 male dog tick crawling on Beau's leg not implanted. {Obviously I removed and did not see if it "would" bite, but tomorrow will give me a better picture when I do my tick check}

This is an incredibly great site
University of Rhode Island TickEncounter Resource Center


----------



## E.Hatch

eddie1976E said:


> How safe is this for puppies? And what would be the dose for a 12wk old pup?
> 
> thanks



The directions on the container of powder says one to three scoops per 60lbs of body weight (one being "good" and three being "best"). I don't see anything on there about age restrictions but I'm sure if you called they would clarify it for you. 

I've only been using it for about 2 months and so far so good. We're about to move to FL though and I have my doubts as to if the garlic alone will be effective. Any Floridians here with input?





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## NancyJ

This is another good site-info on which ticks carry which diseases and an interactive map (click on your county) to get numbers reported in that county. 

Map of ticks and diseases ? dogs and ticks


----------



## NancyJ

Rolling tally: [FWIW I really do love the tick twister you can get at Petco! It has not failed to remove the mouthparts nor has it squeezed the tick which can force infectious fluids back into the dog. I then slide the tick in a baggie and date and ID it using the tick chart and a jeweler's magnifying glass-and, of course, don't pull it with your hands.]

4/26/14 - male American Dog tick, not implanted crawling up leg.
4/29/14 - female American Dog tick, base of skull, partially engorged.


----------



## NancyJ

Rolling tally: I forgot to update....after a trip to WNC in an area known to be infested with ticks.

4/26/14 - male American Dog tick, not implanted crawling up leg.
4/29/14 - female American Dog tick, base of skull, partially engorged.
5/19/14- unknown tick, top of head, partially engorged
5/21/14 -unknown tick, (probably American Dog based on woods), crawling on leg, not implanted


----------



## GatorBytes

Wow, you know your ticks!

Have you considered Wondercide as an additional line of defence. Mist all over, work in a bit in the thicker area's? You would use before and after getting wet and drying


----------



## Harry and Lola

Has been 3 months since I last used Advantix. We are now in winter, but I have not seen a single flea or tick (has been a very warm autumn so I'm sure ticks were still around). 

Still doing the garlic, apple cyder vinegar and CO internally everyday, not given diatomaceous earth internally any more due to evidence it doesn't work when wet, but do sprinkle it on them once or twice a week.

As said 3 months - no fleas or ticks! Wonder how the summer will go?


----------



## NancyJ

Not good update:

Rolling tally: I forgot to update....after a trip to WNC in an area known to be infested with ticks.

4/26/14 - male American Dog tick, not implanted crawling up leg.
4/29/14 - female American Dog tick, base of skull, partially engorged.
5/19/14- unknown tick, top of head, partially engorged
5/21/14 -unknown tick, (probably American Dog based on woods), crawling on leg, not implanted
6/6/14- two dead brown dog tick males. 

That probably means the female had her blood meal, mated and fell off before I found her as the male ticks don't feed but mate and die. I found an irritated spot by his scrotum which needs to be added to my daily check...it is probably where she was........I am just going to monitor. May bug bomb UNDER the deck where he and the cat don't go ......and DE the entire dog run....Brown Dog ticks can live whole lifecycle in the house; most of the others need other host during nymph stage.

I did not do my nematodes in the yard this year but sounds like I better get them ordered.

I am not sure I want to spray anything on him with a strong odor due to his doing detection/cadaver work......


----------



## readaboutdogs

Hooch is doing pretty good on the tablets. I do find a couple ticks on him every couple days it seems, but not every day. I know they are out there because I've found them on me after working in the yard. Seems about the same results as using frontline, etc. to me , but I didn't treat monthly with that. I do give the garlic daily. So pretty pleased as compared to the spot on products. I might look into that spray to use with the garlic! This is the first time I've tried the garlic only, and only used the spot on products once in spring and again towards end of August. I thought a long time ago they said good for three months so never used monthly. The dogs and me never liked it! So I hope the results with garlic will be good. Do others still get ticks with the spot on? I'd still see a couple so thought the garlic was pretty much doing the same.


----------



## David Winners

Started springtime powder today, 2 days after a dose of Frontline. Will update with my experience. 

David Winners


----------



## NancyJ

I have not found any new ticks at the two scoop dose since my last post! And we have been in some woods!


----------



## readaboutdogs

Hooch is doing pretty good, I found 3 or 4 ticks in a week. I'm giving 3 of the garlic tabs daily, may increase to 4 but pretty pleased with results so far. I have not used any of the spot on treatments this year. Sometimes he has like a sweat smell to him but other than right after he eats, no smells!


----------



## Pax8

I've been doing four cloves of fresh pulverized garlic daily for Kaiju and have had no bug problems for three months now. We went hiking this past weekend in a fairly tick heavy area and while I came out with a tick, he was clean. I just got a container of the Springtime garlic. I wanted an alternative to the fresh that would be easier to prepare and travel with. Just started it today, so we'll see how it holds up his protection as compared to the fresh.  We will be starting out using just two scoops daily.


----------



## dogfaeries

I give two scoops, and there is nary a tick to be found on the dogs. Was sort of a slow start, but alls good now. The miracle is that the dogs are still eating the garlic without a fuss. Been feeding it since the end of March.


----------



## woogyboogy

Hey guys, We are currently in the market for a new tick preventative, and this seems like one of the best options. After briefly reading through this thread, it seems as though everyone likes the Springtime Bug Off Garlic, and looks like the Powder form is more effective? 

I was just wondering if anyone had bad side effects, or any issues with the Garlic. I have read some articles about Garlic being deadly towards dogs, and I'm just a little hesitant on whether or not it is a good idea.

Thanks everyone!


----------



## NancyJ

No side effects here and I monitor bloodwork but I also only give 2 scoops a day and have a young adult healthy dog. 

Your dog, however, is facing some serious issues and I would be concerned that things that would not effect a healthy dog may impact a dog who might be compromised in any way and you never know how drugs (and just because something is herbal or natural doesn't make it "not a drug") interact.. Your vet might be a good resource for this. 

There may be other natural ways to avoid the ticks depending on where you are and what you are doing.......and what you are seeing in the way of ticks.


----------



## woogyboogy

jocoyn said:


> No side effects here and I monitor bloodwork but I also only give 2 scoops a day and have a young adult healthy dog.
> 
> Your dog, however, is facing some serious issues and I would be concerned that things that would not effect a healthy dog may impact a dog who might be compromised in any way and you never know how drugs (and just because something is herbal or natural doesn't make it "not a drug") interact.. Your vet might be a good resource for this.
> 
> There may be other natural ways to avoid the ticks depending on where you are and what you are doing.......and what you are seeing in the way of ticks.


You do make a good valid point.

I think for the time being we are going to keep him off any tick preventative and just check him constantly until all of this blows over.


----------



## E.Hatch

Jocoyn how often do you do bloodwork?


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## NancyJ

I run a full panel every year.


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## E.Hatch

CBC, Chem and liver enzymes? Curious as I'm about to go to the vet for a fatigue and intermittent limping and I plan on requesting blood work in addition to a tick panel as we've had issues with ticks recently. X rays also..


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## NancyJ

CBC, Chem, urinalysis, Tick panel, distemper/Parvo Titers (every 2), 

After talking with a teammate I am going to do a more comprehensive NC State panel once a year and the snap 4 at the beginning of the season but I have not done that. Wish there was a quick, easy, cheap, lepto test.


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## E.Hatch

Thanks  Fingers crossed it's nothing serious.

Symptoms started after administering Bravecto, a new oral flea/tick preventative last week. I'd chalk up the lethargy/fatigue to that but the limp (now resolved) has me concerned.

I've been using Springtime garlic, Wondercide cedar oil and k9 advantix and still pulled a couple ticks off of him and found them in the house too. Yard and house have been treated and so far so good. These bugs are no joke in FL.




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## Harry and Lola

Been giving Harry and Lola garlic (switched from raw garlic to powdered garlic), Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar, sprinkling Diatomaceous earth into their coats once a week plus they have been wearing Skudo Electronic Tick Repeller on their collars since the beginning of March, so has been 5 months now with no chemical flea and tick treatment and I have not seen one flea or tick - now we are in winter but our winters are not freezing, so will continue to do this into spring and see how we go. But 5 months without chemicals is fantastic.


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## NancyJ

We wound up the summer with zero more ticks. We did just recently wind up with some fleas though. I wound up collecting 5, then used Advantage II and set out homemade flea traps at night to monitor. I only caught one in the trap.

It seems the cat brought them in and I think that will be an ongoing a cat issue I will have to work with. So SHE is on a flea med and hopefully that will be enough.

Anyway, he started itching a couple of weeks ago and some was like a flea (sudden targeted itch) and I kept using a flea comb and looking for dirt and did not find any. Switched over to the cheap plastic comb and viola! pay dirt. I also did find a little flea dirt around his scrotum.

Right now he is still itching a little but it is more general and not frequent. No dandruff. Not like typical food stuff. His coat is about as glossy as ever with a twice daily full body flea comb! LOL no undercoat on this dog. 

Made me remember life with a dog (Toby) with allergies. Beau has NEVER scratched before and is is over 3. Poor baby. I hope he is just itching at the old flea bites.....giving him some benedryl. No signs of inflammation and no scabs or redness at the base of the tail.


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## GatorBytes

Homeopathic Ledum is supposed to help with flea/bug bites.

You could do benedryl too


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## NancyJ

Doing the benedryl. Hoping the itch goes away in a few days. He is not chewing just scratching with his hind legs some. On line it says they can itch for 1-2 weeks


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## Traveler's Mom

Traveler gets tick bites and I have found Vetericyn stops the itch and helps heal the bite area.

Lynn & Traveler


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## QballK

jocoyn said:


> We wound up the summer with zero more ticks. We did just recently wind up with some fleas though. I wound up collecting 5, then used Advantage II and set out homemade flea traps at night to monitor. I only caught one in the trap.
> 
> It seems the cat brought them in and I think that will be an ongoing a cat issue I will have to work with. So SHE is on a flea med and hopefully that will be enough.
> 
> Anyway, he started itching a couple of weeks ago and some was like a flea (sudden targeted itch) and I kept using a flea comb and looking for dirt and did not find any. Switched over to the cheap plastic comb and viola! pay dirt. I also did find a little flea dirt around his scrotum.
> 
> Right now he is still itching a little but it is more general and not frequent. No dandruff. Not like typical food stuff. His coat is about as glossy as ever with a twice daily full body flea comb! LOL no undercoat on this dog.
> 
> Made me remember life with a dog (Toby) with allergies. Beau has NEVER scratched before and is is over 3. Poor baby. I hope he is just itching at the old flea bites.....giving him some benedryl. No signs of inflammation and no scabs or redness at the base of the tail.


We had one flee on a Shihtzu we are watching because his owner neglected to tell us that he didn't use any prevention at all. So for the first time in two years we used Advantix on our dogs. It was rather frustrating. 

What kind of traps are you using around the house to catch flees?


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## NancyJ

Traps. It is more of a monitoring thing because we had fleas so I did this in rooms visited by Beau at night. A shallow pan with detergent water underneath a desk light.


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## readaboutdogs

Hooch (moo moo!) did very well on the springtime garlic tabs this year!!! I was quite impressed!! Very very few ticks!!! 3 tabs seemed to work really well even though by the chart he could have taken 4. I was going to start cutting back last month but found a couple ticks on him and right now have him on 2 a day till we get a couple good freezes!! We were sitting outside and a flea jumped off him onto my arm, I checked him over really well and have seen no more or evidence of any over a couple weeks so no fleas either. It's more a tick thing at our house!! Moo is a pitbull so really easy to check for ticks or fleas!!! I think I may use the tabs again next year because I think the powder might "flavor" his food a little too much!! He did seem to get tired of it being put in his food from time to time!!! I broke the tabs into 4 pieces and mixed in. It worked really well for us because even on advantix they would still get ticks.


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## NancyJ

I definitely think it is stronger for ticks than fleas even though it does seem to protect a lot from fleas. This is the first time I used a flea product since I started.


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## NancyJ

Well he is still picking up fleas outside. I set flea traps and the only ones I caught were outside. I flea comb him every day after he comes in and I usually find 1 or 2. I am really not sure what to do with the yard right now. I believe the crew here building a new deck for about 3 weeks scared off the remaining chipmunks who left behind their flea eggs because that is about when I noticed the problem and I have not been seeing the little chipmunks. In far corner of the yard I see him stop and scratch so I think that is where he is picking them up.

It is too cool for nematodes so not sure how to treat the yard in that area. Definitely col and shady and I can't change that. Backs up to a creek. Lots of small furries. Since I throw balls and he is running through it and scooping up balls I don't want anything dangerous. Plus the cat goes out and catches the occasional chipmunk (mainly she is catching voles right now-at least that is what winds up on my front porch every day she goes out-she DOES get regular flea drops-would rather not but she has constant direct interaction with vermin and I am not too keen on trying garlic on a small cat-hmmm- have to see about the wondercide)

I had stopped the garlic for about a week and he was coming in with 4 or 5, so it does have some flea repellent effect I think.

Ordered a bottle of Wondercide and will apply to him this am......Hopefully that will work alongside of the garlic.


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## NancyJ

Well, I did put Beau on a chemical flea prevention as the garlic seems not so good for that and, even the wondercide...hope to knock out this lingering population and go back to normal.

That said, I plan on continuing the garlic for ticks as I am sold. Most tick meds kill the tick after they bite and *most* diseases require the tick to be on for 12-24 hours but the idea of preventing the bite in the first place is most attractive and the results very impressive.


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## Traveler's Mom

I'm in the same boat you are. Traveler is 8 and picked up his first fleas just a few months ago. Vacuum our wall to wall carpet every other day, Wondercide every 3 days, spray him with every essential oil combination known to man....no go! Nothing wiped them out completely. I was forced to put him back on K9AdvantixII. Didn't want to but seeing him nibble and scratch wasn't working either.

I'm waiting until our rainy season (June) before I get more nematodes. That works ok for our yard but since we go everywhere together, it's not enough.

Lynn & Traveler


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## NancyJ

I think our indoor outdoor cat is the source of our fleas even though I use Revolution on her. She is doing her job taking care of my chipmunks and voles (who were so bad I was concerned of the nests for the chipmunks undermining my foundation) but think, in the process, she picks up fleas not to mention the neighbor cats who probably are not treated.

It is low level based on flea monitoring but ...... I would like to see if I can make a dent in the population--Also extending where I put my nematodes this year.....


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