# Sorry, but I gotta ask?



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

On the other thread, “A few philosophical questions….”, we conceptually established several key points;

A.)	GSD should have a job
B.)	Divergence exists between lines “types”
C.)	Organizational unification is not likely
D.)	Organizational separation of working lines is not desirable

I think the open discussion points were education and economics. The accountant in me would like to focus on the market and explore supply & demand.

On the previous thread we hit on the economics, where the notion “greed and politics have ruined our breed”, or how about, “It's a huge market, and there is every shape and flavor of dog to fill the needs, and in our breed, there are as many types as the market will bear”….and even better, “…it is simple demand-supply economics. We hit a tipping point where everyone wanted to own a GSD - quality is obviously compromised when the scale is expanded”.

So is that it, our breed is a collection of types, each customized to the wants, needs, and desires of various owner groups? Is that wrong?


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Is it?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Sorry not very good on these kinds of questions, but I think its good people (some) bred the dog how they want it.
A "regular family" (ie my mom & dad & 3 brothers) deff would not have time to meet Kilos needs.
I would NOT reccomend my family getting a dog from his working lines.
He need to be outside ALL THE TIME & be playing or taking commands.
My family sometimes doesnt undertand why hes so high strung. But thats how his lines are. I like being active & going outdoors.
I got Kilo for a friend & compainion.
He needs so much attention & excersise that HE pretty much made me quit smoking ciggerettes as I could not keep up with him.
My gfs GSD is SOOOO laid back you would NOT believe it.
Well sometimes its lines & sometimes just the personality.
I think its kinda good that people (again, some) bred this dog to be either very very active or just "normal".
Im not sure if Im making sense here.
I should stop before I ake myself look like a goon. 








Dont like BYB though who just say "Oh our dogs look the same, lets make puppies"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

> Quote: Dont like BYB though who just say "Oh our dogs look the same, lets make puppies"


You forgot to add, "and sell them" to the end of that.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Happy Holidays Wayne.

I should of know you were a bean counter - LOL.

Are those rhetorical questions? If not, I would like to know your thoughts before I submit mine.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Doc,

I was worried you weren't going to jump in.....if I don't have you to spar with....whats the point!

Becoming a real GSD person is a process. A journey of awareness. One of the things that both confused me and impressed me early-on in my GSD learning trip (not necessarily in a positive way) was the stone throwing from aficionados of one type to the other. While at the same time, popular opinion (as surveyed here, and limited as it may be) seems to be working line separation is not desirable.

I am asking, in lieu of unification, and to avoid working line separation, would it be reasonable to establish recognized "types", where Type 1 is strictly a show ring dog (American/Canadian line), Type 2 is a show and Breed Survey dog (West German Red&Blacks), and Type 3 are schutzhund, herding (working lines) which would then have their place in the conformation ring?

Imagine Westminster with three GSD "Types" shown in the conformation ring, each meeting their respective requirements to be there.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Can I ask a stupid question?.... Good.

Is there one single breed standard? If so, who owns/controls it?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Wayne,

I have been reprimanded in here by the forum demi- Gods so my comments will be very generic. Besides, I think you and I understand each other's point of view.

I think unification is the only real answer BUT since this forum disagrees, let's just separate the types, then take all the first place dogs from each type and have them face off with each other and award 1 Grand Champion. This event will be judged by the public - no bias judge will get a chance to determine the winner.

Or award points throughout the year for all the activities and shows a dog is entered and placed - then at the end of the year the one with the most points wins. No show or activity is weighted anymore than the others so the dog that is "scores the best" in all the events will be the grand champion.

A single breed standard? - Good Lord no! No one entity owns it or controls it - that is one reason there is such a mess. 

PS It amazes me that that our last forum was shut down - it had 251 posts - a HUGE number compared to the normal number. Come to think of it, the threads with the most posts usually involve the folks that present a different point of view than masses in here ... hhhmmmmm, imagine that.

Wayne, have you read the book - Death by a Meeting? A wonderful story about disagreement and passion resulting in a better overall solution.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Your right, Doc


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Ruthie the only stupid question is the one not asked. I always told my kids if you have a question ask it because I guarantee someone else wants to know the answer but may be afraid to speak up.
There is 1 standard, all should be bred to align as closely to it as possible. Therein lies the problem, each person or group interprets it differently. I hate when so many people here put the Am/Can show lines as not able to do anything but gait around a ring. There are lots of breeders who like these dogs and are breeding for dogs able to work. There are German Showlines without a roached back who can work and move as well. Then of course the same for the working lines, somem who can work with a shut off switch.

When reading a standard and it says for instance long muzzle, what does it mean? 4 inches, 6 inches, 7 inches? I picked the least offensive I think, to use as an example. If comparing working ability is it the dog who is calm and cool but when given a job can do it or the one who jumps up and down until given the job? Is it the one who never has a chance to do a job and then when shown excels or one who does it from 8 weeks on its own? 

I hope I made some sense, I am for 1 breed, everyone allowed to compete together, and more people o speak up for health and temperment and legislation if it comes to that.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

One standard? Since when? SV, FCI, others?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> PS It amazes me that that our last forum was shut down - it had 251 posts - a HUGE number compared to the normal number. Come to think of it, the threads with the most posts usually involve the folks that present a different point of view than masses in here ... hhhmmmmm, imagine that.


It was quite obvious to anyone that read the other thread that it was shut down not due to the subject matter or whether some secret cadre of board members agrees or disagrees with the viewpoints presented, but rather due to the inability of some participants to follow the board rules and converse and debate in a respectful manner without constantly insulting and demeaning those who disagreed or challenged their opinions.




> Originally Posted By: DocA single breed standard? - Good Lord no! No one entity owns it or controls it - that is one reason there is such a mess.


Actually, for most intents and purposes there is only 1 breed standard. The one set forth by the SV is the one recognized by the FCI and thus followed in 99.9% of the countries in the world.

GSDCA has it's own standard which deviates somewhat from the SV standard in some few resepects, but is still virtually identical in most ways.

True variances in the written GSD breed standards from country to country are very minor.

Interpretations of that standard, even within the same organization in the same country, vary widely. And it is this difference in interpretation that is at the root of the different "types" of GSDs.

Even in countries like the US and UK that have a "homemade" variety that is fairly unique to that region and not seen anywhere else in the world, this is due mostly to differences in interpretation, not written standards.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

The road runs both ways Chris. And I can find a large number of German shepherd owners and breeders that feel the same as I. 

So is there more than 1 standard? A simple yes or no will suffice. It is understood that Standards are read through many different lenses. But I still contend that there is more than one written standard for the German shepherd dog. Where did you get your information i.e. 99.9%? is that a fact or just a made-up figure?

If you want to improve this form, let all sides of a debate be aired. Who knows, somebody may learn something new in the process. But I guess that is against the rules in this forum.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

How can something be identical if it deviates from the Standard?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocThe road runs both ways Chris. And I can find a large number of German shepherd owners and breeders that feel the same as I.
> 
> If you want to improve this form, let all sides of a debate be aired. Who knows, somebody may learn something new in the process. But I guess that is against the rules in this forum.


Then bring them online.

Absolutely no one is keeping you, or anyone else from airing your side of the debate. Provided you can abide by the board rules you are welcome to debate all you would like.

I think just about everyone on this board is here to learn, and happy to do so. But that does not mean they will agree with the information being presented all the time, nor does it mean that they will tolerate being talked down to simply because they do not agree.

Disagreement is a far different thing than unwillingness to learn.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> So is there more than 1 standard? A simple yes or no will suffice. It is understood that Standards are read through many different lenses. But I still contend that there is more than one written standard for the German shepherd dog. Where did you get your information i.e. 99.9%? is that a fact or just a made-up figure?


There is one true standard, set forth by the parent club of the breed and adopted by the international organization.

Then there are other, slightly different standards, in some countries that are unique to those countries and not accepted internationally.

So I guess whether that means one or multiples is up to interpretation.

I could go make one that says GSDs should be 30", 150lbs and purple, post it on the internet and say it's a breed standard. If I got a big enough group of people to form a club and adopt this standard, would that make it a real one?

As far as how different, both the FCI standard, and GSDCA standard, and any other standard that people want to review are easily found online so everyone can do their own comparison of how similar/different they are. 

As far as what is accepted, the only countries I am aware of with standards that deviate in more than just wording from the FCI standard are the US and the UK. I don't feel like googling how many countries there are in the world at the moment (and it might change by tomorrow anyway) and doing the math to see if "99%" is correct or not. But the fact remains that the the vast majority of countries do accept the FCI standard, and those countries that do not stand alone and their standard has no international recognition.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I prefer working line dogs, I feel they best reflect the vision of Max v. Stephanitz....but I also respect the preferences of others, and I even appreciate some aspects of the other GSD "types".

OK, OK, I will admit it....I like to look at White Shepherds!!!!!! I feel so dirty.

So there are "types" under what is basically one standard. Should the types be recognized within the current organizational structure?

Should there be a Westminster with GSD "types" shown?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Why would you want to destroy the working dogs by creating a "type" that could be shown at Westminster? Westminster is a beauty pageant. Minute you start judging the dogs strictly on their structure and leave out the "work" you destroy everything we are fighting to preserve. 

There is but one German Shepherd Dog. Just because people have altered the breed to fit their ideas does not change this, neither will separating the GSD into different breeds or types.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Westminster is an interpretation of the standard by each judge that has the dog enterred in its class, and then a measurement of how well the dog conforms to that standard. 

Politics comes into play. 

I do not knock the show lines, the german showlines or American specialty lines, or the dogs shown in all breed rings here. Dogs are trained to show. They must be willing to have judge go over them, look at their teeth, check their testicals, and so forth. One judge kept hanging a milk bone dog biscuit in front of my dogs nose and pulling it away, and watching him. I expect it was his way of checking the dogs temperament. Rushie did fine with that. 

The dogs are trained to stack, trained to pull out and gait, trained to not sit and stand. The dogs will have other dogs run up behind them and along side them and they do not get good marks for barking and growling and snarling and attacking. So the dogs have to be pretty well socialized. 

If dogs that are larger than standard or more sloped then the standard is what judges are putting up, that is what conformation people will breed for. And the problem then becomes making your dog stand out as exceptional without being extreme. Too often people go to extreem to make them exceptional. 

The alternative is to throw out the baby with the bath water and breed soley on the dog's working ability or accomplishments. Any broom tail nag can be an obedience champion. (I actually did see a u-tube of a horse doing a rally course.) Dogs that are too big, too small, improperly sloped can excel as working dogs, herding trial dogs, schutzhund, agility, rally, etc. The working ability, and titles do nothing to prove that the dog's physical shape conforms to the standard. 

Stating that the working lines are more of what Max would have liked, is not really acceptable either. It is basically saying that my dog cannot win the conformation title so I am throwing that part of it away. Or my dog does not conform to the standard, so I am not going to try to conform in my breeding program.

A better way is to look at your dog and say, I love his temperament and working ability and drives and size. I would like to improve his should, eye color and feet, and then go out and find a dog that has these features correct, and if possible some progeny that shows that these are correct in them. 

At some point, and I do not know if we are there yet, what is put up in the ring, actually detracts from the working ability of the dog.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthWhy would you want to destroy the working dogs by creating a "type" that could be shown at Westminster? Westminster is a beauty pageant. Minute you start judging the dogs strictly on their structure and leave out the "work" you destroy everything we are fighting to preserve.


I fail to identify anywhere in any posts on this thread or the other where I suggested I want to destroy the working dog. In fact, I suggested separation, and a breeder based organization to preserve it....

You said;


> Originally Posted By: lhczthSeparation is not the answer. If we want to maintain working dogs we must breed working dogs. It is through the dedication of working dog breeders that we will maintain the GSD as a working dog (even if I think we are fighting a losing battle). We don't need another organization. People just need to stand behind the organization that best represents the German Shepherd Dog.


What I am suggesting is that a real german shepherd can do it all. I also suggested each type would meet its own requirements to be at Westminster....vis-'a-vis, a working line would be SchH3, IPO3 or HD3 to qualify to be there, thereby sustaining what we hold important.

Are you suggesting a working line couldn't present at Westminster? It would not be important to me, and I suspect to you either....but I think we would all agree as working line people....a good dog could/should be able to do anything.

Keep in mind...the "types" exist....period. If we cannot not unify, and if separation is not the answer....is status quo the optimal state?...and if status quo is the optimal state, why then, do we throw rocks at the people who prefer something other than what we like?

I do not intend to be argumentative on this subject, I am simply exploring the hypocrisy of it all.

All I am saying is, "give peace a chance!"









Again, I would prefer to follow the example of the RSV2000. On this side of the Atlantic, we squabble between the USA, and GSDCA....on the other side of the Atlantic, the same type of issue exists between the RSV2000 and the SV.

I think the approach RSV2000 is offering is much better than "fighting a losing battle".....don't you?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DocThe road runs both ways Chris. And I can find a large number of German shepherd owners and breeders that feel the same as I.
> ...


They came, they saw, they left. They all got fed up with the unyielding confrontational attitudes displayed by a core of "working line" members. They offered different points of view only to be shot down by you and others in here.

They all came seeking mutual respect and equal exchange of knowledge and information. The unacceptable environment and actions in this forum squelched all hope for many.

On another note, there is more than one published Standard - you mentioned 2 plus others that are not well known. Given this information, the statement "there is one standard" is not accurate.
And, "a vast majority" - a vague, non quantifiable number - may or may not equate to 99.9%. 

I think people in here should have as accurate information as possible - not information that isn't factual or is editorialized to support a given point of view. In here, often the facts are thrown around like yesterday's dirty laundry and people only care about their point of view and have no facts to back it up. Or they make up numbers to support their argument. How is one to learn if the information presented is biased?

Wayne, you know I hate the idea of "typing" German shepherds, but in this forum, I think it will fly as long as "working" dogs are defined as SchH. dogs. Any other "working" dog might fall into the "Service" type?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Fine, if it will make you happy, I will change my statement to "no matter how many published standards there are, there is only ONE that matters, and that is the one set forth by the parent club of the breed and accepted by the international community". There is ONLY ONE that fits those criteria.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildFine, if it will make you happy, I will change my statement to "no matter how many published standards there are, there is only ONE that matters, and that is the one set forth by the parent club of the breed and accepted by the international community". There is ONLY ONE that fits those criteria.


It's not to make me happy Chris, it's the facts - nothing but the facts. And to be accurate, you should state that "there is only ONE that matters _to me_.

How about _recognized_ by the international community rather than _accepted_. You did say some countries have a different standard and they do not accept the ONE standard you have adopted.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There is but one standard. That which is set by the parent club of the breed. Whether we like that fact or not is moot.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Maybe THE Standard should be the original Standard drafted ....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as separation of types by some organization imposing defining lines between them, I see no reason for this or benefit for this.

It would be better if the breed were to come back to center, with each group avoiding extremes and working for a *balance* of temperament and physical attributes appropriate for this breed.

The breed has always involved a variety of types displaying different physical and temperamental traits. This is how the breed started. But for a long while, the physical and temperamental traits of the different types and crosses of types, for the most part all still fell within the continuum of what is correct for the breed. Even at the beginning there were show types and working types, but the show types could still work and the working types could still show. And there was also broad differences in what constituted work. Service dogs and guide dogs and ambulance dogs and sentry dogs and patrol dogs (and if such things existed back then, no doubt detection dogs). And while each form of work requires certain aspects of core temperament that should be present in all GSDs (solid nerves, work ethic, courage, trainability, and the ability to read a situation and think, not just react) there are other temperament traits that vary based on the form of work the dog is expected to do. The best patrol dog is not going to be the best candidate for guide work. This is expected, and not incorrect, and the traits of both still fall within the pervue of what is considered appropriate for the GSD. And the natural variance of temperament within a correctly bred GSD litter ought to be able to run the gammut of temperaments appropriate for most any type of service this breed has traditionally performed.

That is not the case any longer. There is no longer balance, only extremes. The different types have become almost charicatures in many ways and all the camps are guilty of this in one form or another, though IMO some much more than others.

Dividing the types further based on any form of criteria is not the answer. I don't know what the answer is. I'm not sure there is one. But further division isn't it.

No orgainzation or set of rules is going to make show people value work and working temperament. This has already been tried and failed. The Euro show lines where working temperament supposedly is valued, and where working titles are required for top show competition and breeding, aren't much better in that respect than the North American show lines who dropped working temperament as a priority decades ago and have been going their own way ever since. Rather than preserve working ability, this has only led to a perversion of the test put in place to do just that. Its obvious in many cases the advocates of this type really don't care, they just pay lip service to working temperament because they have to follow the rules, changing the rules to be easier and easier every chance they get. In many ways, those who are upfront about their lack of interest in any form of testing of working temperament, or who openly shun it or degrade working tests and the people who value them, are at least showing more integrity and honesty, rather than being hypocrites.

And at the opposite end of the spectrum, there are those who have taken working temperament to an extreme as well and who are getting out of balance in the opposite direction. Though I do think this is far less common. This is mainly due to the simple fact that when approached properly the working tests do still serve their purpose to test temperament, nerve and practical, utilitarian structure. So when they are followed properly it is a bit harder to get out of whack. But it does happen.

I think as with all things, education is the best approach to take. Those firmly entrenched in their camps aren't likely to change their minds, though some may surprise me on that. It is the people new to the breed who are just learning, and the folks who don't really care about different camps throwing stones at each other, but who have in their heads a picture of what the GSD is and are looking for that. No doubt some will be turned off by the infighting, but my experience is that many more find it educational. What in many cases no doubt starts out as simple curiosity as to what the big deal is all about and why people get so nasty about it, leads many people to learning about the different types, and why they are different, and the goals and preferences and vision of the proponents of each one, and some history on what the breed is supposed to be in the first place. So when they do make a decision on where to get their next GSD, it is a much more educated one than they would have made if the whole debate hadn't caught their attention and got them researching in the first place.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Excellent post, Chris.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

So true. Excellent post.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> Should there be a Westminster with GSD "types" shown?


Why?

In the same vein, should there be a BSP with the different types shown?

For starters, there would be no interest in either. Those who do not have the NA show type GSD are not going to put the time and money and effort into campaigning their dog in that venue, particularly given what is clearly a hostile atmosphere, just for giggles. Those who do not have a Euro show dog aren't going to do that for the Sieger shows, and those who don't have a working dog aren't going to do that for the big trials.

People chose their type based on their interests. And the people seen at the high levels of competition for each type, are undoubtedly the ones most entrenched in their camp and closed minded to the possibilities that the other types might have anything to offer.

Wayne, I know you wish to promote the working dog. Obviously I'm with you 100% on that. But if it's going to happen, it needs to start from the ground up, not at Westminster or the BSP or the Sieger show or anywhere else.

The best way to do it is just to get out and let the dogs be seen by the masses. The people interested in GSDs who are not already staking their flag in the center of any one camp. This doesn’t happen at conformation shows or SchH trials where the people there are already very aware of the different types and have staked their flag. It happens elsewhere, off the field. 

It happens when you take your dog to soccer games, or parades, or Petsmart, or for a walk downtown and people stop and ask about your dog. Talk to them, and let your dog be an ambassador for the breed. When they ask what sort of dog it is (as happens all the time if it’s black or sable or anything other than the stereotypical black/tan) or why it doesn't walk on it's hocks like many they've seen, or why it's so well behaved and social compared to the many poorly temperamented or poorly trained GSDs they may have encountered, talk to them. You’ve got an interested audience, take advantage of it. Educate them.

One of my fondest recent memories with our dogs, and what became an excellent educational opportunity, occurred at the 2009 UKC Premier. For those who don’t know, this is UKC's big event of the year. There are thousands and thousands of people and dogs of every breed there competing in all sorts of events: conformation, agility, obedience, rally, dock diving, weight pull, lure coursing….. 

Last year we were there competing in the UKC Dogsport/SDA trial with 3 of our dogs. Saturday afternoon, with our trials done for the day, we had Raven and Wulf out just walking around. Lots of people came up to pet them and ask about them. Some knew they were GSDs, some didn’t. All asked why they were different from the GSDs seen in the conformation ring, so we simply explained what type they were and that we were there competing in the back 40 at the dogsport trial. Many were amazed to learn that the dogs they were petting and playing with and fawning over had been "biting people" earlier that day. But no one was turned off by it, they found it fascinating and eye opening.

But the best part came at the end of the day, as we were sitting with them in the grass under a tree in front of the pool watching dock diving. A couple young kids in the stands at the pool came trotting over asking if they could pet our dogs. The same dogs that just a couple hours earlier had competed in the Police Dog class at the dogsport trial, and also earned huge applause in the hardest hitting courage test competition where they took 4th and 5th places out of a field of 13 dogs. Yes, of course the kids could pet them! 

And as the little girl is standing next to Raven with her arms around Ray’s neck, and Raven is sitting next to her, towering several inches over the little girl, with her head tucked down and nuzzled on the little girl’s shoulder, and the little boy is sort of flopped over a lying down Wulf, playing with his ears and kissing him on top of the head while dodging Wulf’s tongue, I catch out of the corner of my eye a young couple stop a few feet behind us to watch the dog/kid interaction and I hear this conversation:

Woman: Didn’t we see those 2 dogs earlier today in the back doing that protection work?
Man: Yup.
Woman: Do you know what kind of dogs those are?
Man: I’m pretty sure they’re German Shepherds, though I’ve not seen those colors before. But that’s what they look like.
Woman: They probably are, after all isn’t that what a German Shepherd is supposed to act like?

BINGO!

That is how one promotes the working GSD. By having good ambassadors for this breed and showing them off. Getting a dog who is correctly balanced… and a dog who can work but who isn’t safe in public or able to serve as a companion is as incorrect for this breed as a pet who can’t work… and then getting it out where the open minded, willing to learn, non-jaded people can see it.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild\
> . No doubt some will be turned off by the infighting, but my experience is that many more find it educational. What in many cases no doubt starts out as simple curiosity as to what the big deal is all about and why people get so nasty about it, leads many people to learning about the different types, and why they are different, and the goals and preferences and vision of the proponents of each one, and some history on what the breed is supposed to be in the first place. So when they do make a decision on where to get their next GSD, it is a much more educated one than they would have made if the whole debate hadn't caught their attention and got them researching in the first place.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild That is how one promotes the working GSD. By having good ambassadors for this breed and showing them off. Getting a dog who is correctly balanced… and a dog who can work but who isn’t safe in public or able to serve as a companion is as incorrect for this breed as a pet who can’t work… and then getting it out where the open minded, willing to learn, non-jaded people can see it.



Thank you for the great story about Ray and Wulf. This is exactly what I was getting at in the "shut down" post. I just wasn't doing a very good job of explaining. 

It is obvious to me that the general pubic (myself included not so long ago) does not understand the value of a GSD that can work. I don't have any interest in arguing what the definition of "work" is for the sake of this discussion.

I feel that people who are passionate about the breed an don't want to see the breed lose the working temperament SHOULD be doing their part to educate people. Even if it is as simple as talking to people who ask about their dogs. EVERY time we go to the pet store, I end up giving my "working" dog speech to at least 2 people. 

What bothers me tremendously is when I see people on this board who have a wealth of knowledge and say that they are passionate about preserving the "true" GSD, yet they behave in a combative manner, insult people with a differing opinion, tout their credentials instead of answering questions, or even downright ignore questions that are posted. It isn't just on the forum either. I have heard so many stories about "this expert is great but so full of themselves" or "this person is so knowledgeable, but rude and rude can be..."

I haven't seen anyone on this discussion that disagrees that GSDs should work (although we disagree on what that means) and most have stated that they should also have good confirmation. I wonder if we could all be more effective if joined together. Like "Got Milk". 

However... we might all have to settle our differences first.









I don't think that anyone can deny that types exist, so what should be done about it? Nothing?, Seporation?, Unification? How?


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Chris WildThat is how one promotes the working GSD. By having good ambassadors for this breed and showing them off. Getting a dog who is correctly balanced… and a dog who can work but who isn’t safe in public or able to serve as a companion is as incorrect for this breed as a pet who can’t work… and then getting it out where the open minded said:


> I wish I had known there was such a thing as "correctly balanced years ago." I have always beem drawn to the working lines and my dream dog is what Chris described ( good work ethic, good nerves, courageous, but also good with children, a true fanily member). A private trainer who also raises and breed rotties had told me that what I wanted no longer existed! He said there are two types of GSD; East German types who are good at protection but unsafe around children and American types who are not good at protection and but safe for a family. I believed him because the dog we had at the time was from Czech lines and by 18 months was becoming agressive towards kids and had bad nerves. The trainer said it was because he was Czech! Now I know it was just the dog and not a representation of how a well bred GSD should be. My next dog was a mix of American show and German working, because I was hoping to attain balance because the breeder said this was the only way to achieve balance in the breed.
> 
> From this forum I am learning and seeing that my dream GSD does exist. TThere are many breeding and raising healthy GSDs that love to work, are courageous, have good nerves and are great to live with.
> 
> I agree that education is the best way better the breed. I take Benny ( 1/2 East German 1/2 Aamerican to PetSmart, on walks, to Assited Living places and feel a little sad when people say " He sure is nice for a GSD! I just smile ands tell them a true GSD is nice when the situtation calls for niceness!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Good Lord Chris, I am gonna need some time to even figure out something to say! Doc, can you smack her around and keep her on the ropes for a while to give me time to think?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I was asked by the local kennel club to attend an event they were sponsoring show casing as many breeds as possible. They had 2 working line breeders showcasing their shepherds but wanted some show lines as well. I am not a member of this club but club members with showlines didn't feel their dogs could do a good job. How sad.

WE went, I set up an x-pen and attached pics of my guys herding, tracking, swimming, and just being dogs. I had both males and had them out together and laying around for everyone to see and pat. People were surprised at the herding pics and most didn't believe they were actually herding dogs.

Most people were not surprised by the attack demonstrations but didn't understand why those dogs were kept in their vehicle and not allowed to socialize. They did their thing then went back in crates. Never was one out for petting. I am glad to hear Chris that your dogs are sociable. That is number 1, how can the dog have correct temperment if they can't be out in public?

So I was asked and my dogs were great examples, they don't walk on their hocks, they are confident, agile, healthy and sociable. While there we were asked to take the CGN, I didn't know what all it entailed but both easily passed. 
Sin has 8 points in the show ring, he is ready for his first herding title if my daughter can get time off work when the trials are on, he is also ready for his CD. Ty is ready for nothing, but we are getting there, every time I think we are there he gets goofy, I don't feel like rushing so we just keep playing and he will get there.

Lets try to accept that which we can't change and change what we can, everyone breed healthy, stable dogs and sell only to people who will do things with and for their dogs, Lets take money and prestige out of the equation and just do the best for the dogs we all love.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

trudy I think sometimes it's a matter of priority. Nikon does Schutzhund (not "attack" training) and is extremely social with people, honestly a bit too social for my tastes (remember these are GSDs we're talking about, they should be somewhat aloof and discerning). But often at the events we attend I keep him in the car most of the time. It's just not my priority to be out socializing. It has nothing to do with the dog or whether he's capable of it, but I personally am not that social and when we are at an event for a demo or to actually trial, my mind is pretty focused elsewhere. For socialization I make a point of doing activities for that purpose, like spening an hour at the pet store, dog park, a walk in a busy neighborhood, etc. Also, if the dog is doing some training or demo for bitework or something like that, the dogs need to rest and decompress afterward. Nikon is crated for a period of time before and after every track, any complicated training session, and bitework session.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02Good Lord Chris, I am gonna need some time to even figure out something to say! Doc, can you smack her around and keep her on the ropes for a while to give me time to think?


You're asking an awful lot Wayne! She ain't called the Alpha B _ t _ h for nothing! I hope you are a fast thinker ...


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

thank you for that perspective, I never thought of decompressing. I was just surprised and since we were told the criteria was to be hands on of as many breeds as possible, that was why the show line kennels didn't bring any some thought too many people and too stressful. I think perhaps if they had an area where perhaps a retired or young dog could have been out for the crowds to interact with would have been better. My guys can sleep anywhere, and we had extreme excitement while the demonstrations were going on, and they certainly wanted to go out after the guy too, but 5 minutes or less after it was over and people started moving around, they could be petted and they stayed calm. I am sure most dogs have shut off switches and are great but they needed to show it. Again thanks for that way of looking at it.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

just wanted to say in regards to "should be somewhat aloof and discerning" Meisha is this to a T but if anyone has drugs, particularly grass, she is like a cat with cat nip, she goes from aloof and ignoring or showing definite dislike for others to almost purring. I always joke I have a drug dog, Meisha, a search and rescue, Ty, and herder, Sin. Just a bit of humor tossed in the mix


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I try to have my dogs out in public as much as possible. Keno and I did therapy work in a local hospital for 7 years. During that time, we rode on the elevator with every important person in the hospital, including the CEO! Keno was also featured in a TV news dtory about the importance of therapy dogs in the lives of the patients. Keno was also pictured in the newspaper with a 4 year old girl petting him for "Bite Prevention Month". Tag and I do bite prevention talks in schools to teach kids what not to do around a strange dog. They then get to pet the dogs afterwards. Tag was also a great ambassador of the breed at the 2005 Westminster show. Not only did he get an award, but he also sat in his crate for hours afterwards being petted, having his picture taken, and just hamming it up! Zeke and I used to give obedience demos at the "Working Women's Survival Show" and the "Home Show" in St. Louis. Thousands of people were there, and Zeke loved all of the attention he would get.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: trudy
> 
> Most people were not surprised by the attack demonstrations but didn't understand why those dogs were kept in their vehicle and not allowed to socialize. They did their thing then went back in crates. Never was one out for petting. I am glad to hear Chris that your dogs are sociable. That is number 1, how can the dog have correct temperment if they can't be out in public?


I agree with a lot of Lies points on this issue. When we go out to work (and that means train, trial, demo or whatever) it's work time. When we go out to socialize it's socialize time. Quite often the two don't conincide. Really has nothing to do with the dogs being social or not, but more my priorities and brain focus and reason for being there in the first place. It also depends on where I want the dog's focus to be. They are very situational and have learned well the difference between when mom takes them out to work, and to play. But I still try to be fair to them in my expectations. So for example in my UKC Premier story earlier, the social time came *after* they were done trialing for the day. Not because they'd have not been every bit as social earlier in the day, but because when we hit the trial field I wanted them thinking work not socialize and play.

Though at the same time, I can certainly see how it would be easy for people who weren't aware of other reasons for putting the dogs up that have nothing to do with the dog's approachability to make the assumption that the dog was put up because it wasn't social. Especially after an "attack dog" demo and at an event where the whole thing is designed to be more social. Those dogs may or may not have been social. No way to know. Being put up after working doesn't indicate one way or the other since it's sort of SOP for many working people. But it sure could leave a very different impression to people not aware of that. Easy for innocent actions to be misinterpreted as meaning something else entirely, when there's no communication. 

I also always try to remember the fact that while my dogs are all approachable and social to a point.. it is to a point. Meaning they have no problem with people coming close and crowding them, will tolerate petting and handling, but it's really not their favorite thing. It doesn't bother them, but they don't really enjoy it either. It sort of just bores them to tears, since most strangers could cease to exist for all they cared. They'll be appropriate and polite, but for the most part would rather engage me in something and ignore the strangers. (At least with unfamiliar adults... kids are another story altogether. They're ga-ga over kids.) 

To me this is actually the way it should be as the GSD is supposed to be aloof. Stable, approachable, trustworthy, one who thinks before acting if something strange happens or some person does something inappropriate or accidentally steps on a paw or any number of other things that happen out and about in public. But not a social butterfly. 

Certainly there are working line and SchH dogs that aren't social. Just as there are in every other type. But it's not the norm. Most of the ones I've met, and all the ones I've owned, are just fine in social settings. It's just that often times their owners, for one reason or another, don't allow them to showcase that. Honestly, that's something that never occurred to me.. that a common practice amongst working dog folk that typically has very little to do with the dog's temperament could easily send the wrong impression to others from different backgrounds who aren't aware of other reasons for doing it.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

this is why forums like this are so good, we each see how something common can look differently to someone unaware. I could not understand why they had no dogs out when that was the written explanation each person was given. The idea was that people could see different breeds and ask questions and interact and find a pure bred dog to fit their lifestyle. The reason I said attack work vs schutzhund is all each dog did was 2 attacks, no heeling, nor any other work, just a blind attack and an across the field attack. The dogs came in not heeling but lunging forward and almost uncontrolled.

I would love to be able to try schutzhund training one day, even if only the 2 sections if I found a trainer I like near by that I could afford, finances being as they are. The obedience is so much more difficult and the tracking more precise, but I don't know if I could do the protection or if Ty would. I could never be the decoy, too scarey.


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

Thanks for your post, Chris.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Quote:Last year we were there competing in the UKC Dogsport/SDA trial with 3 of our dogs. Saturday afternoon, with our trials done for the day, we had Raven and Wulf out just walking around. Lots of people came up to pet them and ask about them. Some knew they were GSDs, some didn’t. All asked why they were different from the GSDs seen in the conformation ring, so we simply explained what type they were and that we were there competing in the back 40 at the dogsport trial. Many were amazed to learn that the dogs they were petting and playing with and fawning over had been "biting people" earlier that day. But no one was turned off by it, they found it fascinating and eye opening.


What is a bit sad about this is the sportwork was in the back 40 and the conformation up in front. So if you didn't know better, you would miss the lurecoursing & SDA. Most that did mosey back there didn't have a clue what was going on, but enjoyed it(I was overhearing comments made) Now, sadly UKC is doing away with the SDA affiliation...


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Wow, talk about an educational post Chris. fantastic story.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Interesting points.

Doc, I tried to PM you but your box is full


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chris, that was very nice informative post, really liked it. As I have met and worked with Wulf, I think he is a good representative of the breed. Some good responses also, especially without posts from "people being combative, insulting, credential touting, and supposedly passionate about the breed. Folks, this thread is very positive, IMO, and doesn't need input from those other types!! So, I'll continue to lurk!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: XephInteresting points.
> 
> Doc, I tried to PM you but your box is full


Yeah, I was keeping all fan mail in there!









It's empty now Jackie. Are you sending me the ty-dyed tee??


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieSo, isn't THAT what we should be discussing? Look at groups like the California Milk Producers board. When faced with a 15 year decline in the consumption of milk, California milk producers banded together to get their message out. Ever heard of "Got milk"? One of those dairy farmers couldn't make much of a difference by themselves, but the group sure has.


OK Chris, I'm ready. (insert anouncer voice here: "Leeeeeeeettttts geeeeeeettttttttt ready to rummmmmmmmble!")

I quoted Ruthie frankly <s>to suck-up so she'd bring her chicken salad to club Saturday</s> because your posts confirm a few basic points and shift the conversation.

The points you confirm are that the "types", for all intent and purpose, are a result of the market....said a bit differently, demand is driven by what you referred to as, "People chose their type based on their interests".

Albeit the types are a result of "extremes", as you described it, and an individual interpretation of the standard...they exist.

We've previously established unification as unlikely and separation as less than ideal, and.......status quo is unacceptable, so we leave behind the economics that got us here, and change the situation with education.

Is your grass roots, good working line dog citizen approach sufficient, or is the breed in need of more assistance? A more proactive, aggressive campaigne? "Got Working Dog?"

Isn't that what Max did when he went from law enforcement organization to military organization promoting the virtues of the breed as a service dog? Is it time to rise up again, not a second coming of Max, simply a unified marketing of what a GSD should be?


Edit: All I want for Christmas is the intellect and capacity to spell!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildCertainly there are working line and SchH dogs that aren't social. Just as there are in every other type. But it's not the norm. Most of the ones I've met, and all the ones I've owned, are just fine in social settings. It's just that often times their owners, for one reason or another, don't allow them to showcase that.


One thing I'm curious about is how much influence the way you raise a dog ultimately has on its sociability. I can certainly see why someone whose priority is a working dog (regardless of lines) is still going to care about the dog being fine in social situations, but more focused on work and less on being a social butterfly. Being aloof towards strangers is more conducive to working with you, so that makes perfect sense. But if you were to take that same dog and raise him/her as a family companion where the focus is on being friendly towards people, would it end up just as aloof, or would it learn to love people? I guess its a nature vs nurture question, and I have no idea what the answer is. 

I just know that all the shepherds I've had (2 Amline, 2 WGSL, 1 WGWL) have been very social and people friendly, and I have encouraged that because it works best for my lifestyle. Did I help teach them that, or is that an inherent part of their personalities that would be there no matter how I raised them?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Some of the breed standards that I have read on-line all list "aloof" as a breed characteristic. IMO a GSD should be naturally aloof.

We raised Bison as a pet, so spent considerable amounts of time socializing him when he was a puppy. In fact, obedience training is a challenge because he wants to see what everyone else is doing.

That said, he is still what I would consider "aloof". For example, we went to a parade this summer and a group of girl scouts came up and asked if they could pet Bison. He had five girls petting him at the same time and one hanging around his neck. Aside from licking one of them on the cheek, he pretty much just sat there and looked at me.

Wayne, funny you mention chicken salad. I was going to make some for my work potluck tomorrow, but someone, who will remain nameless, ate my croissants while I was at work today.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I've NEVER had a aloof shepherd!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Here is a quote from the breed standard on the AKC web site. This is what I am basing my definition on.

"The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships"


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI've NEVER had a aloof shepherd!


Benny and my last GSD were not aloof either! They were both have German working line and half American, but were surrounded with kids from the time I brought them home at 8 weeks. Did all that environment take out the "aloofness" or were they just not bred to be aloof? 

Benny is just 8 months. Do they tend to get more aloof as they mature?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

"Aloofness" is not taught, trained, nor encouraged - it is, or should be, a natural characteristic of the breed. A German shepherd can be aloof and be social at the same time i.e. lets strangers pet him when he knows it is ok, but not "bond"/"connect" with every Joe Public. Being aloof and social are two different and distinct traits IMO. Can you have one without the other - sure. Can you have both in the same dog - sure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I like aloofness. To me it is NOT the same as a dog that is nervy, skittish, overly suspicious. It just means my dog is rather indifferent towards strangers. He neither treats them like his best friend, nor shows avoidance. Strangers are just a neutral thing (unless they threaten us). He will take treats, accept petting, play with you, but you can't just take his lead and expect him to walk off with you for good.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Doc"Aloofness" is not taught, trained, nor encouraged - it is, or should be, a natural characteristic of the breed. A German shepherd can be aloof and be social at the same time i.e. lets strangers pet him when he knows it is ok, but not "bond"/"connect" with every Joe Public. Being aloof and social are two different and distinct traits IMO. Can you have one without the other - sure. Can you have both in the same dog - sure.


Agree 100%. (Well, ok, maybe only 99.9%







)

Aloof and social are not mutually exclusive. Though I suppose it depends on one's definition of social. If by social the person means a dog who wants to run up and greet every Tom, **** and Harry as his long lost best friend.. that is not appropriate for the GSD. It's not a problem, and is much preferred by many people over a more reserved dog, and right or wrong it tends to be considered more appropriate with modern society's view of dogs, but it really isn't correct for the GSD.

The definition of aloof in the portion of the GSDCA standard Ruthie posted is a very good one "not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships."

A dog can certainly fit that category but still be social, if one defines social as a dog who is approachable, open, unbothered by people, will accept attention from strangers, and essentially sound, stable, trustworthy and predictable in social settings. The Golden Retriever "everyone is my best friend" type of sociability doesn't fit the standard for this breed.

Aloofness is something that typically develops with maturity. Most puppies and adolescents tend to be social in the Golden sense. Though this isn't true of all, and in some bloodlines even young pups can be somewhat aloof. This is often misinterpreted as nervy, and that isn't the case. One needs to look at the dog and read his reactions. If he's not worried or bothered, but simply has no interest in strangers, there is nothing wrong with that.

I do think environment can play a role as well. It can't change genetics, but can enhance and dampen certain genetic aspects. There are some dogs who are so genetically aloof that nothing in their raising is going to make them social butterflies. And other dogs who are so social that nothing is going to make them aloof. But many, if not most, dogs fall somewhere on the continuum in between those extremes, and environment can impact their behavior. If encouraged to be very social, they will be. If encouraged to be more aloof, they will be.

Dogs are also very situational and cue off their owners. With our dogs, when out in public, they tend to be more aloof. But then honestly, so are we. I'm not a super gregarious person so I tend to be polite and cordial, but somewhat reserved, around strangers. If on the other hand I am out in public and encounter someone I know (and like!), my dogs will cue off that and give them a much more exhuberant greeting and treat them with more interest than a stranger. Even if it is someone the dog has never met. Obviously the difference in that situation is ME and my reaction to the person. I greet them like a friend, thus so does my dog. If I tended to be that way towards people in general, strangers included, as some folks are, my dogs would likely act differently too.


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildIf on the other hand I am out in public and encounter someone I know (and like!), my dogs will cue off that and give them a much more exhuberant greeting and treat them with more interest than a stranger. Even if it is someone the dog has never met.


Chris, here is a question with some extrapolation of your example above - to what extent do the GSDs imitate the personality of the handler? It seems logical to me if the handler is accepted as the leader then the dogs would follow and start replicating similar behavioral aspects? Genetics may override the environmental influences when thresholds are pushed but in normal circumstances the handler's personality may drive the dog's interactions with the surrounding?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Doc"Aloofness" is not taught, trained, nor encouraged - it is, or should be, a natural characteristic of the breed.


That's not really what I meant. People are always saying that you can't bring out what isn't in a dog in the first place. Couldn't the opposite also be true? 



> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI do think environment can play a role as well. It can't change genetics, but can enhance and dampen certain genetic aspects. There are some dogs who are so genetically aloof that nothing in their raising is going to make them social butterflies. And other dogs who are so social that nothing is going to make them aloof. But many, if not most, dogs fall somewhere on the continuum in between those extremes, and environment can impact their behavior. If encouraged to be very social, they will be. If encouraged to be more aloof, they will be.


That's more what I'm referring to. What I mean by social (in my own dogs) is closer to "everyone is my best friend", although they range on that scale from Dena who would practically throw herself at people - she adored them from puppyhood and that never changed. Keefer is less effusive, but with people who are clearly dog lovers and send out the right signals, he'll drape himself across your lap for hugs. He will actively seek out attention from strangers. If they ignore him, he may ignore them too. None of them have ever just "accepted" attention, they've all loved it to a degree. Halo is still young at 13 months old, she could change, but she still wants to lick everyone's face.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

My own exploration of those thoughts: 
I'm a fairly outgoing person and try to be friendly. A smile comes back to you 3 times, really makes the day go by nicer!

Otto is very gregarious dog by nature. When he was a young pup, he simply had to meet every stranger he saw.

Morgan was raised at the heel of a similarly outgoing dog (Luther) but from the time I got her at 6 months old, she's been defined by what Chris said


> Quote: If he's not worried or bothered, but simply has no interest in strangers, there is nothing wrong with that.




Having Otto out with Morgan on walks made Morgan more interested in meeting strangers. Otto would go up with his whole body wagging and his ears soft, he just loves people. Then Morgan would go up a bit more reserved but far more willing to meet strangers than before.

Now that he's 18 months, Otto doesn't HAVE to meet everyone he sees. He's developed the GSD aloofness but when I say it's okay, he's more than thrilled to receive attention from strangers. Especially if they're women, he LOVES women.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Doc"Aloofness" is not taught, trained, nor encouraged - it is, or should be, a natural characteristic of the breed. A German shepherd can be aloof and be social at the same time i.e. lets strangers pet him when he knows it is ok, but not "bond"/"connect" with every Joe Public. Being aloof and social are two different and distinct traits IMO. Can you have one without the other - sure. Can you have both in the same dog - sure.
> ...


I'll gladly take 99.9% on this one!

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view








And I would agree that the environment can impact aloofness to a certain degree. I've seen German shepherds that are/were social and acceptable to strangers and exhibit aloofness to them and it's owner. Nervy and spastic behavior is something entirely different 99.9% of the time


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Spastic behavior - not to be confused with exuberance


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Correct. Spastic = ears, tail tucked, head looking all around, dog croutched, blank expression etc. You've seen the types.

Exuberance = tail waggin, tongue flying, dog smiling, jumping up to lick you, etc.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Competition seems to breed extremity. If we took some of the competitive aspect out of venues there might be a different picture in the breed/breeds. But, this competition is attractive to many people.

I think that the breed is best served by the middle ground. In history, before the splits, the dogs were all still closer to the beginnings of the breed and I imagine there was much more uniformity. You could perhaps more likely count on the charactreristics of the animal where ever you found him...family dog, farm dog, service dogs, etc.

Breeders still trying to achieve balance in the dogs are probably the heroes. They have to work very hard because they can not work on specific characteristics to the exclusion of others. Niche breeding must be simpler than this.

I will have to tell you there is something about some of us that does get drawn into extremity. I know what makes a dog able to compete well in the specialty ring. After studying that venue for awhile, I bought part in a dog. She's a youngster but won her class at the National. Not an easy level of competition to win in. She has characteristics to win in the venue. Some extremity is involved in order to suspend and still take a large stride. 

I also have to admit I like those extreme dogs who are impressive in power, fight and aggression. I am pretty sure these powerful dogs would not fit a middle of the road situation. Had one here who ended up serving as a very good public servant in the police force( handler I put him with was dog trainer first and then cop). I am sure he would not have been a lovely companion to many people or even wonderful for many officers! I still say, "what a dog" when I think of him but perhaps shame on me.

Competing at high levels in sport must favor a certain type of dog also. 

What kind of activity lends itself to the preservation of the most balanced, versatile dog? What is the "reward" for producing such? Would competition quickly cause degeneration into another niche? How do you create the appreciation again for this type of dog? What kind of "work" best serves the whole so that the dogs produced would have the most well-rounded possibilities for service in different areas. We have plenty of breeders out there who "trade" on this idea. They claim to produce dogs more like the dogs of old, they point at the vagaries of the extreme venues and sell based on opposition to such. Most of the time, I think most of them are just marketing, but what of someone trying to breed a solid dog? How would we recognize them?

I always come down on the side of defending the concept of schutzhund as a breedworthy test. Though flawed and possessing a competitive arm, the activity itself tests a dog for characteristics that seem to me to be core to the breed. 
Some may be able to come up with a better assessment and that would be awesome. ScH is not a religion but an attempt to test, assess and define. I am often amazed at people who say they love the breed but eschew this activity somehow.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Quote:I always come down on the side of defending the concept of schutzhund as a breedworthy test.


As do I. How could it be even more perfect? Judges make random unexpected visits to the dog's home, see it's behavior there. Does it bark when the doorbell rings then cue off the owner's behavior about guests? Is it a wild thing that needs to be crated when there's visitors in the home? Does it even live in a home or is it living in a kennel becuase it's so extreme it can't be trusted?

*edit This is really the only flaw I see in SchH, breeding extreme drives to excel in the sport but turning out a dog who can't live in a household.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

What got me thinking about this is partially a previous discussion about prey drive, believe it or not! I think it was Chris who pointed out that a dog can be conditioned to find playing ball with people fun, but just because they are crazy for chasing balls that doesn't mean they have high prey drive. 

I thought about that, and realized my dogs are perfect examples of this. I would never have described Dena as high prey drive, even though she was obsessed with chasing tennis (and similar sized) balls. If you knew nothing about her and saw her with her ball at the park you might think otherwise, but her behavior was very specific to that toy. She was a natural retriever from the time we got her at 9 weeks old, and I reinforced that by rolling a ball for her and encouraging her to bring it back, and she learned to LOVE balls. But she never had that attraction to fast moving things the way Keefer has, and had no interest in larger balls (like a Jolly ball), or frisbee type toys. If I had never encouraged her to retrieve from a young age would she still have been ball obsessed? I have no idea.

Keefer has always been very stimulated by fast movement - it immediately attracts his attention, his head whips around to follow it, and his body will too if I let him. It's like something clicks in his brain and instinct takes over. He likes any toy that moves or can be thrown or kicked indiscriminately, and he notices and reacts to many other types of fast movement too. Whether or not I encouraged this, it's how he's hardwired. With him I've had to work on self control, showing him that he's able to control that instinct to chase everything. 

We shape our dogs' behavior all the time by what we reinforce and what we don't, by what we encourage and what we discourage, based on what our priorities are. I realize that aloofness is a natural part of the breed, but since it's not something I particularly care about it's not important to me the way it would be for someone who values that characteristic, I can take it or leave it. If I were competing in Schutzhund with my dogs, or were training to compete, then I could see how reinforcing aloofness and calm acceptance, and discouraging undue attention towards strangers would be beneficial and desirable. A dog who does have the overly social gene, so to speak, would have to be taught that in many circumstances people are backround noise, to be tuned out in order to focus on the work.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Are there a lot of these dogs who can't make it in a household? I have had to help many dogs find a home who couldn't make it with their families. None of these were from what I might consider a "sport breeding". I imagine such a dog would not have made it there either though. If there are these monsters who can't make it in a house, I just am not seeing it. 

A breed who looses its home around here a lot is the Border Collie. We are rural and many breedings are from working dogs. I don't consider them extreme or of extreme breeding, but still they have a hard time. Seems to me that being an appropriate dog for a specific breed opts one out of a lot of "home environments". I think that is to be expected somehow and when it happens to GSDs, I find that normal. But I haven't seen so many dogs that were so terribly incorrect as to not make good companions. I have seen national podium dogs laying about on sofas without a problem. Perhaps others experience more of these inappropriate dogs than I do.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Samba, I think you conceptually are right that the middle is where the breed should be. The problem is the breed has specialized so much in past thirty years that many of the people that are judges, trainers, hobbiest, and owners only know the breed through these lens. To me the demise of the breed was when the same dog could no longer win in the breed ring, produce service and working trial champions, and produce military/police/herding dogs. Dogs such as Marko vom Cellerland, 1972 World Seiger in conformation, produced sables, blacks,bi-colors, and Black and Tans. One of his parents was a HGH dog and he is also behind some of the great workinglines of today. Excellent structure, herding skills, mental toughness, a great great dog. He would not win the Seiger/Grand Victor today, he would not win the Bundesseigerprufund(working trial) today, some of you would look at him and see a BYB dog from your idea of the breed as it has evolved. Yet, he was and produced the exact type of dogs that made this breed famous through accomplishments and not opinions.
Less you understand this type of dog and have worked with it, its hard to discern who is breeding these types today. So, either you stay happy with the dogs of today, or you hope to find a mentor or breeder that is still breeding for this type regardless of what the Judges and trainers of today say.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Samba I have had to help many dogs find a home who couldn't make it with their families. None of these were from what I might consider a "sport breeding". I imagine such a dog would not have made it there either though. If there are these monsters who can't make it in a house, I just am not seeing it.


Samba, you are correct. Hyper dogs that can not settle into families generally won't make it in SchH either. These dogs must have the ability to control themselves and still listen even when at the highest level of excitement. The dogs must be able to work all day yet have the brains to listen and work with their handler then settle at night so they are rested and ready to go again the next day.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, there ya go, Lisa. Somehow out there is this idea that dogs bred with the basic breed characteristics to do schutzhund makes for some sort of maniacal dogs nigh on impossible to integrate into civilized society. It just doesn't make sense to me and I really don't see it much. It is completely counterintuitive to think such production would create satisfactory sport dogs even. 

I still maintain that what makes a dog able to do good work in situations requiring energy, power, courage, tenacity and obedience makes for an excellent companion unless you are a person who shoulda gotten a bichon anyway.


edited to add:

The fingers of extremity are now far reaching. People desiring to "compete" find themselves having to adapt to the competition if they want to play. I imagine there are people who are breeding very adaptable, servicable dogs outside the ranks of bizarre competition. Hope the genetics continue to find their place. Perhaps they are breeders who are trying to supply SAR, police , narcotic detection, herding or are these dogs of extremity also?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SambaWell, there ya go, Lisa. Somehow out there is this idea that dogs bred with the basic breed characteristics to do schutzhund makes for some sort of maniacal dogs nigh on impossible to integrate into civilized society. It just doesn't make sense to me and I really don't see it much. It is completely counterintuitive to think such production would create satisfactory sport dogs even.
> 
> I still maintain that what makes a dog able to do good work in situations requiring energy, power, courage, tenacity and obedience makes for an excellent companion unless you are a person who shoulda gotten a bichon anyway.


Agree.

I see the same opinion pandered about often that a "working" dog can't be a pet. I really don't get it either, because my experience has been the opposite. And I think the experience of most people who have owned, or gotten to really know, these bloodlines is the same.

Just to use myself as an example (since here I can provide actual numbers... some people like those rather than editorials







)

We currently have 5 adult dogs, all working bloodlines. 1 is just a pet, as her temperament proved unsuitable for SchH or any other type of work. But we love her anyway 4 are working dogs, both in bloodline and vocation. We participate in SchH, and approach it much more from the breed test standpoint than a sport standpoint. We also do SDA and some other things, partly as further testing of the dogs since we breed, and partly just because it's fun. All of our dogs also have CGCs, the 3 younger ones TTs, and our old SchH3 guy is therapy dog certified as well.

But they are also our pets. They live in the house, take trips to the pet store and farm store, walks in the woods, hikes in the state park, trips to the beach, playing in the pond, various other public outings, cuddling on the couch, sleeping on the bed, tearing around playing tag and wrestling with each other, and all that normal pet stuff. They are great pets. And the 2 pups we have right now will I'm sure follow in those footsteps.

We breed working lines. Of the 60 pups we've bred thus far, 47 are in working/sport homes. And by work/sport homes I don't mean just SchH, though that is what most are doing. It also includes competitive agility, obedience, SAR, law enforcement, personal protection, narcotics detection, and farm work. 13 are in pet homes with just normal, everyday families who have the personality and lifestyle appropriate to GSD (not Bichon) ownership. A good number of those could also have performed some sort of work/sport very well too, but that isn't the desire of their people, and everyone is happy without it.

But the part I'm most proud of is that of those 47 working homes, all but 4 are pets too. Living in the house with the family.. which often includes children, other dogs, cats, horses, one even with a house rabbit... and also doing all the normal, everyday pet stuff.


Sure, I've met the occasional working line dog who wasn't suited to regular family life. But no more of those than I've seen in any other bloodline. Fewer in fact since the thing that makes a dog most unsuitable for family life is poor nerves. The exact same thing that makes a dog unsuitable for work. Correct balance of temperament produces a dog capable of excelling in both worlds without any trouble whatsoever. I know many, many other working line breeders, who participate in SchH and other similar venues as breed tests, who could put up similar statistics. It's not uncommon. In my experience, it's more common than not.

So where does the idea that working dogs can't be pets come from? I have a couple thoughts on that.

Obviously in many cases it's just marketing on the part of the "breed for pets" crowd, and some of the show crowd. They get tired of working line folks reminding them that the GSD should be a working breed and then pointing out that their dogs don't work, so they turn around and shoot back "oh yeah, well your's can't be pets and that's what most people want!" It's not true, but that doesn't keep them from saying it, or keep others from believing it.

But I also think in many cases it is just simple ignorance of what proper working temperament involves. People say, and I see this often here on the forum as well, that working temperament isn't needed because most people just want a pet. Well, the last part is true. There are more pet owners than there are people who plan to participate in work or sport endeavors with their dog. But the first part is not. It's not just that most work/sport people want a pet too, but it gets back to the fact that sound, stable temperament is sound, stable temperament and *everyone* wants that. If pet owners and work/sport owners each sat down and made a list of temperament traits that they found desireable and ones that they found undesireable and unsuitable, those lists would have a lot more in common than not.

I think there is a whole lot of ignorance about what all constitutes "working temperament" and I think here many of us pro working line people may be somewhat at fault here. It was actually trudy's post (thanks, trudy!) that got me thinking along this line and wondering if we aren't contributing to the "working dogs can't be pets" idea ourselves somewhat without realizing it?

Listen to us talk, especially those who do protection work, and a lot of our conversation revolves around "drive" and "aggression" and "grip" and "fight" and other such terms. Terms that can seem downright scary to people who don't really understand them.

Add in that while we talk about those things a lot, we don't talk so much about the other important aspects of working temperament: biddability, judgment/being able to read a situation and think and problem solve and not just react, courage, tenacity, resilience, nerve strenth, sociabilty/approachability, health, structure, work ethic, intelligence, trainability, ability to work both independently and as part of a team, etc... I think we would all agree those things are tremendously important, many moreso than "drive" and "aggression" and "grip", but they don't get as much screen time. 

I don't know if that's because we just sort of take them for granted and assume they are in place and we tend to talk more about the few traits that do most often set our dogs apart from the show/pet lines, or why that is. But it could certainly leave the impression that those scary terms are all we care about, and thus all working dogs have to offer.

Even on forums like these, made up mostly of pet owners, we don't tend to share stories of our dogs being pets. We have them, I'm sure. But we don't share them. If we post a story or a brag, it's probably about a great training day or a new title. Not just the normal dog stuff. Again, possibly giving the impression that our dogs aren't normal pets, or we don't value that, because we don't talk about it much.

Add in a few experiences like the one trudy shared of the dogs doing the bitework demo and then being stuffed back in their cars while all the other dogs were out socializing, giving the impression that the dogs weren't social, even though that may well not have been the case, could just cement that idea in people's minds that indeed the working dogs can't be pets, the working people don't care about pets, good working temperament is different from good pet temperament, and so on.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I tried to count up all the working line SchH dogs that passed thru my home over the years. I couldn't but anyway there were a LOT. I only remember ONE who I don't think would have made a fine pet and house dog. She never did settle too well but she was far and away the exception. A solid temperament dog can go from the field to the couch and look like a bump on a log till it was time to work again. A solid temperamented dog is a joy to be around the house. 

I have never understood why people seem to think that working line dogs can't make great pets??? Wanna get a pain in the butt? Get a nervy little yorkie.... I babysat one recently, he never stopped moving, pacing and barking at imaginary things. Branca and Urro would just watch him run around like "what's wrong little fellow"??


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Indeed, the best place to start is with ourselves. Not much we can do about anyone. I have to admit that I am guilty as charged also regarding the portrayal of the working line dog as companion. 

I have admitted my own penchant for the extreme that I sometimes succumb to. That may be part of the problem. 
I guess also, I just take the "basically a great dog stuff" for granted and don't talk about it much. When you have lived the vast majority of your life with untrained toy poodles as the household pet, and then you discover working dogs and dog sport it is hard not to mostly exclaim about the new found information and understanding. Though what is actually so much fun about it is that your "pet", your "companion" can go out there be so much and do so much. It is so amazing that I too get caught up in the language and the artform....plus, that horrible draw I have to the dominant, drivey, take no prisoners dog ( probably same reason I liked the boys who had a police car outside their house often). It's a disease.

Perhaps too, I suffer from elitism. I should be more grateful and welcoming (though I will try to help anyone, really). Unfortunately, I have perfect temperament and am aloof until pack membership is well established. Maybe I don't really want the world to know the secret of my mushy, kissy face, turn himself iside out for kids, lick the kitty's head, multiple BSP participant ancestry, working line dog. 

Chris, you are right. We don't mention enough that the strenght of nerve, the ability to percieve and judge is rather amazing and makes for a companion dog almost incomparable in my experience. SHHHHH, don't give away the secret....NOW time to get my monster out of his lair and have him take a full grip on his...his.... blue bunny!!!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Yippee! This is exactly what I have been talking about! (From the closed post) The joys of living and working with a working GSD, regardless of what lines, should not be a secret club! (Sorry Samba, LOL. BTW your post was very funny)

I was one of those people that thought that working lines were scary. You see them "bite" people, bark, posture... It is hard to understand sometimes that they are "regular dogs". I never saw my Gator act like that, I only saw that "home" behaviors that displayed his sound nerve and temperament. It took all of DH's super research powers and well written e-mails from Chris and Trish (Bison's breeder) to convince me to even consider looking at a working line pup. After comparing pups breed to work and those who were not, it was very clear to me that the working ones better fit the breed standard. (Again, I am not saying that only working lines can work)

To Chris' point, I mentioned before, but will say it again. One of the American line breeders did her best to convince me that we couldn't handle a working pup because they are drivey monsters.

When I look at my wonderful Bison, and think that I would have ended up with a different type dog had I have stuck with the information I got from the "traditional" sources... Yikes!

Even when we started SchH, I had read a lot about it and was already excited about the sport, but the terminology that was used at the club concerned me. Like Chris mentioned, "aggression" this and "fight" that... Aggression to me was what my fear aggressive Moose was, not my balanced Bison. I certainly didn't want to turn Bison into a Moose. Thankfully, Chris explained all the terminology to me so I understood what was really meant by everything and I am very comfortable with the sport now. But, I am already guilty of promoting the sterio type. You should see the scary teeth pictures on my desktop at work.









So, because of all these experiences I am passionate about the subject of education. Maybe it is my training background (the human kind), but I really want to do SOMETHING to help people who were in the position that I was in. 

Even in the informal poll, the fact that 44% of people owned dogs that couldn’t work before they got their working dogs is really unacceptable to me. (Poll- http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1277804&page=1#Post1277804)
I don’t believe that all GSD owners need to work their dogs, but I do believe that all GSDs should be bred to be ABLE to work.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My first dog ever = working line GSD (father was 100-96-100 SchH3 in Germany). The easiest dog to live with I've ever had an met, and my family, who are not dog people, are always commenting on how "good" she is. Best manners, most settled in the house. She's even easier and more well behaved than many of the other breeds of dogs belonging to people we stay with. I've taken her to work when she needed observation for medical reasons and my co-workers never even noticed she was sleeping under my desk (we don't have offices, just cubicles with only 2 or 3 sides). Yes, she settles even at work in a "strange" place. I can walk out front to help someone and she stays put.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Found these little comments regarding Marko on the net.

Marko's pedigree was basically from little-known sheepherding bloodlines and the SV hierarchy felt that he did not compliment the bloodlines of Canto/Quanto, both of whom were being strongly promoted by the SV. The wisdom of this issue is still debated to this day. Marko produced 5 Select progeny but the bloodline plays little or no part in modern pedigrees.


Eihaltung reports:

A fourth line that occurs in many pedigrees is through the Sieger Marko v Celler Land. Marko himself, was an excellent dog, produced many good sons and was dominant for producing good hips. His sons, however, did not produce well. They produced poor fronts and unbalanced structure. Marko sons also produce a divergence of type. Marko also carried the black recessive and a paling gene. Most black GSDs trace lineage through Marko, as well as those dogs with marked paling. Because of these factors, one usually finds this line only through females three or four generations removed.

vomInsel:

Marko was way underused as a stud, which is unfortunate, 

as he turned out to me a much better producer than those who were used at that time.



I didn't know this dog. I am old enough, but had a toy poodle at the time, I am sure. It is interesting to look at the information. It looks like the leaders at the time threw Marko over for other more "complimentary" studs at the time. Did his progeny continue more in what would become "working lines" upon the split ?


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## DorianGrayFFM (Apr 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild...Dogs are also very situational and cue off their owners. With our dogs, when out in public, they tend to be more aloof. But then honestly, so are we. I'm not a super gregarious person so I tend to be polite and cordial, but somewhat reserved, around strangers. If on the other hand I am out in public and encounter someone I know (and like!), my dogs will cue off that and give them a much more exhuberant greeting and treat them with more interest than a stranger. Even if it is someone the dog has never met. Obviously the difference in that situation is ME and my reaction to the person. I greet them like a friend, thus so does my dog. If I tended to be that way towards people in general, strangers included, as some folks are, my dogs would likely act differently too.


That's absolutely why I love the breed. I think every owner should be able to identify with his dog. 

For instance and not to highjack the thread, my best friend Joe is a social butterfly. People immediately love him, want to marry their daughters off to him, women want to hug him, he's just always the happy go lucky good looking dude that connects with literally everyone...he owns a beautiful Golden Retriever named Nike that loves to be petted by people and wouldn't harm a fly.

Me, I professionally deal with the worst kind of people, have been leading a very serious and disciplined life and just generally do not like being the center of attention, nor do I easily bond with people. However I can get along with all sorts of people and be around most without making them feel too skittish, but then again most would not just walk up to me and strike up a conversation, though I am well mannered and polite, but still generally aloof in that sense and I'll also put the fear of God in you if you try to hurt my family. My dog, IMO, mirrors my personality to a T. 

People who know me and my friend, who've seen the picture of our dogs side by side crack up and always say "That's T and Joe right there".

I'd never want German Shepherds to become Golden's. I love and appreciate the GSD for what it is and that's a GSD not a GR or Lab.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, I do think there is something to this aloof quality that is not entirely dependant on me. Yes, the dogs are very tuned in and do react according to owner. But, I have had dogs I thought were appropriately aloof, others gregariously social and one you really don't want to express your affection to unless I have a moment to put it in on command. I may be quite schizophrenic though. Always said, "I don't suffer from insanity, I love every minute of it!"


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SambaWell, there ya go, Lisa. Somehow out there is this idea that dogs bred with the basic breed characteristics to do schutzhund makes for some sort of maniacal dogs nigh on impossible to integrate into civilized society.


Samba,

That piece of your post describes me two years ago. I have five children and they are the reason I get out of bed in the morning. I was concerned, pretty much as you describe, so I have my two year old West German show line rather than a working line, as I thought I couldn't risk a working line around the kids. Its funny, every show ring person I have ever met, has told me what a poor specimen of the breed she is, her legs are long, her back is flat, (and she walks on her feet)....I am so very proud of her!

Like I said in an earlier post, becoming a real GSD person is a journey of awareness. Now, I have taken my five year old son to SchH training. He thinks it is pretty cool, and I am totally comfortable with him there.....because I understand what a working line GSD is, and more importantly, what a working line GSD is not.

I appreciated your post, it really hit home for me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Marko was not complimentatry to the showline world of Black and Red extreme sidegaiting dogs. He was very balanced and produced this as opposed to extreme sidegait. Here is irony of where you have ignorance of show breeders that don't work come in. Marko was balanced and not extreme in sidegait, and YET he was made bred directly from real HGH dogs. (Who knows more about what is needed to herd, show people or real HGH people). Yet he was excluded from the show genepool because he didnot produce the extreme sidegait that is needed to herd ...per the show people. If you look behind some of the great workinglines like Maineche Kennel you will see Marko vom Cellerland. When the show world started excluding dogs like this they started excluding genetic diversity that had the German shepherd as not being split because Marko had it all. BTW, I had a Marko son in the 70's and he is still the most well rounded GS I have ever owned. I try to convey information from experience as much as I can not just books and internet.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Interesting, this is why, I believe, most of the breeders I know will readily admit the lessening or almost complete lack of working character in their gene pools depending on the lines. I find most of the objections come from owners and pet owners of these lines who think that stating the obvious somehow constitutes "bashing". The breeders I know are not unintelligent and they well understand they have "sacrificed this for that" because that is the reality of breeding with an emphasis swayed inordinantly toward form. 

When decisions to shun dogs such as Marko Cellerland in breeding strategies for advantages of form there is a genetic price to be paid. 

Irene Sommerfeld, canine geneticist:

To the subject of breeding for external features, the so-called “Formwert”, she elaborates as follows:
,,If I actually only judge the exterior, only the Formwert of a dog at the breeding show and I would only use
corresponding animals for breeding, then other features which are perhaps just as important for the health are
being exposed to the so-called genetic drift, that means that they are more or less being modified at random,
and then of course it may indeed happen that certain features that were definitely present in a population, like
for example a balanced character or a certain working quality, are then lost pure and simple."

For this reason, there was some attempt to improve or deter the genetic drift perhaps when the ScH III became the requirement for VA rating. Unfortunately, the judging and the test suffered deteriotation pressure to support the more valued "formwert" of the fancy.

Thanks for sharing your experience with dogs from years ago. I hear similar things about the quality and characteristics from others who were involved decades ago. I hope there are breeders still selecting as best they can for dogs of overall soundness and character so that we can continue to recommend these animals as companions as well as work servicable dogs. Such dogs are really a joy to own and share life with. 

Temperatures headed for the 50s today! I love to be outside and will have yet another good day before seasonal affective disorder takes it toll. Going to go tracking and play on agility equipment or walk in the national forest with the working line family pets here!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Although I am new to German Shepherds, I have owned Belgians for over 30 yrs and always felt I would never own a working line as I can't handle all that i have read of them. I never thought they were calm, stable tempered but a loaded gun needing very little to go off. I am glad to learn from this forum and mostly Chris that they aren't like this. All the demonstrations I have seen as mentioned have involved no actual touching by anyone. Now that I hear some different thoughts I am not so anti-working dog. I spend a tremendous effort in socializing and early training but truthfully felt I could never handle one, am still not sure I could but know I don't want one, I do love my guys. I do believe now that they aren't on edge at every moment. Thanks for dispelling my prejudices.

Now about not using certain dogs in past pedigrees, I agree but we can't turn back the clock. Most big show line Am/Can breeders are starting to look for German lines to add to their breeding programs. Perhaps they aren't picking dogs the majority would like but it does mean their eyes are opening and they realize they have lost something and they are trying to gain it back. There are also many showline who did add German in past generations and they are not extreme types nor are they nervous dogs. 

I think open non critical dialogue is the first step. This hasn't broken down into insults and we are sharing info and why I thought the way I thought is why many people think that way, perhaps that will tell working line people that you maybe need to explain to the novice person and that may help include some of your lines into others and the betterment will continue. Thanks to those who took the time to read, understand, acknowledge and explain my error in thought. 

Also aloofness is alive and well in show lines too, Meisha usually ignores people after the first watchful look, and Ty has surprised me by how little he cares for people the older he becomes,. Neither are afraid and will stand or sit for pats but never solicit any nor lick or show more than acceptance.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Aloof. 
Maybe that is the answer?

As I have explored the presevervation, separation, and promotion of the working GSD, I have been thinking about the "Got Milk" concept. When I consider what popularity has done to some of the breeds in the sporting group....the notion of GSD elitism seems comforting.

Many on this forum might suggest that the GSD already suffers from the symptoms of popularity that some sporting group breeds exibit. I'm sure this is evidenced by the volume of urgent rescue posts.

Is the working line GSD better served by the niche it fills, supported by the <u>very few</u> who are dedicated enough to puts the hours into training and working their dogs?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, my show lines girl was the one I considered very correctly aloof. She never sought petting but certainly tolerated well all approaches, and would look off in the distance. People would not like it that they could not engage her like a Golden, but that aloofness makes for this type of interaction.

I hope the areas and people that require or appreciate the working type are enough to support its preservation. I don't know. Popularity doesn't necessarily bode for good outcomes. Yea! I get to continue to be an elitist!!!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

As a young man, I was fired based on my aloofness! I hope I come back as a German shepherd in my next life.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DocAs a young man, I was fired based on my aloofness! I hope I come back as a German shepherd in my next life.


Now that is scary.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocAs a young man, I was fired based on my aloofness! I hope I come back as a German shepherd in my next life.


I would have never guess a pony express rider could be terminated for aloofness????


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:Aloofness is something that typically develops with maturity. Most puppies and adolescents tend to be social in the Golden sense. Though this isn't true of all, and in some bloodlines even young pups can be somewhat aloof. This is often misinterpreted as nervy, and that isn't the case. One needs to look at the dog and read his reactions. If he's not worried or bothered, but simply has no interest in strangers, there is nothing wrong with that.


That describes Akbar. He may be a puppy but this is how he views strangers. 



> Quoteogs are also very situational and cue off their owners.


Chris, this explains a lot... In another thread I made, I asked why at a conformation class Akbar backed up from the lady going over him but not with my friend who is going to be handling him. Because I get nervous easily, I was told it probably went down the leash to him and he reacted to me being nervous but because my friend literally means nothing to him and she was confident in her skills, Akbar was normal, let two different strangers go over him. 


This topic has been so interesting, spent an hour reading it.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Random thoughts after wading thru rest of 26 pager and this thread:

Sometimes I think the use of the term "pet quality" among breeders and sport enthusiasts, whether in conversation
or text of web pages, often gives the impression of less than, and makes JQPublic think "less than
what?" Then reading on or listening, one hears "preference to working homes" and thinks well, gee, I don't know if I care to sign up for that,
I just want a good dog, and so moves onto the next breeder who promotes a "pet who can live in the home, not in a kennel"
Word play, maybe. Elitism, likely. Divisive, definitely. The semantics of language are used in all adverstising, it is what it is,
but it tends to exasperate the divisions, and confuse those who haven't taken the time to realize it's just spin, in either case. 
The dogs don't care, they'll be ok either way. If they need to patrol
the perimeter 2 dozen times a day to expend the energy, they will.

As for the Got Milk campaign, if Got Teeth is too scary, how about Got Brains?

And often handlers put their dogs up so the humans can decompress and socialize and not have to be vigilant...the dog is safe
while put up, and there is no worry about how it behaves or is treated by others.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Quote:


Sometimes I think the use of the term "pet quality" among breeders and sport enthusiasts, whether in conversation
or text of web pages, often gives the impression of less than, and makes JQPublic think "less than
what?" Then reading on or listening, one hears "preference to working homes" 
[/quote]

I am glad you brought this up. I very much wanted a working line well bred dog that is a true representative of the standard as my childhood GSD was, and when I 
saw some recommended web sites with pups I liked but saw "preference to working homes" I felt like I was not good enough for them, even though my life revolves around my dog and my family ( and sometimes in that order they tell me ) I would give the dog, whether a working line, shelter rescue, or mixed mutt the best possible life in the home, with the best diet I could find, medical care as needed, take them everywhere possible with me and perhaps do some agility but only for fun, so I did not inquire at those sites that said preference to working homes"
When I hear "pet quality" it sounds to me as if the pup is some how inferior. Perhaps i am misunderstanding the language? 

When a breeder says preference to working home what does it mean? Do they mean they want the dog to be titled in Schutzund? Is it because the breeder wants to become more known, be able to make more money? Does being a therapy dog, or getting a CGC qualify as a working home?

Benny is 8 months now and got his STAR puppy award at 20 weeks and goes with me to Assisted Living to visit my mom and is great with all the residents, even though he is not a titled therapy dog. Does working home mean intention to title the dog. Right now Benny is works very hard at " annoying the cat"


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

I think "preference to working homes" by breeders simply translates to - 'you are not buying a couch potato...this dog will need regular workout and some mental stimulation to be happy'. When most buyers talk about wanting pets, the working line breeders probably think of that home as unlikely to be capable of investing any time in the dog, and hence possibly resulting in train wreck. Just a little more conversation can add lot of clarity and better choice on behalf of both parties.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

As a breeder, I feel responsible to make sure a potential buyer understands what a German shepherd needs as far as exercise and mental challenges. Often, if the buyer has never had a German shepherd, they are unaware of what is really required. Previous owners at least have their experiences.

A strong commitment from the owner to the needs of the German shepherd is essential for a good experience. Breeders should make it a point to explain to buyers such needs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yup, what Grady said.

We are one of those that have "preference for working homes" on our website.

While there are a few other minor reasons for this, by and large the main reason is exactly the point Grady made. NO GSD is suitable for a home that wants a couch potato or assumes a well bred GSD is perfect out of the box and will grow up to be RinTinTin with no effort on the owner's part. Yet there are way too many of those people out there. My experience with pet homes in general is that there are very few of them who are really suited to a GSD. I think we get spoiled here on this board comprised of so many well educated and responsible GSD owners that we forget that most people on this forum are probably in the top echelons of pet ownership, and really aren't representative of the pet owning population at large.

Most people are well aware that the breed needs physical exercise. But many people aren't aware that it also needs mental exercise. They figure going for a couple walks and throwing a ball for a few minutes is all a GSD needs. Forgetting, or maybe being completely unaware, that as a working breed, and one that is very tied to it's owner and not independently minded, these dogs also need mental stimulation, training that goes beyond just an 8 week class at Petsmart, and quality one on one time interacting with their owners. They need a high degree of involvement in their owner's everyday lives and interaction with the owner. They aren't suited to a home where being with the owner means just hanging out all the time and essentially being seen but not heard. 

There are indeed many pet homes who can provide for a GSD's needs. They have the personality, lifestyle, and interests well suited to that, view their dogs not just as a member of the family but also as a hobby. In other words they like going out and doing things with their dog. But they are the minority amongst the general pet owning population. And there are others who say they understand the dog's needs and are prepared to meet them initially, but they really aren't. Or they are at first, but then the novelty wears off, life gets in the way, and a year or two down the road the dog gets neglected.

I give preference to working homes mainly because involvement in work/sport endeavors naturally brings with it all those things the dog needs. Can't participate in obedience, agility, SchH, SAR, whatever without providing physical exercise, mental stimulation, training and quality one on one time together. So the dog's needs get met simply by virtue of being involved in those activities in the first place. The dog doesn't care what it's doing, it just cares that it's doing something with the owner, and those activities naturally provide that something. 

There are many pet homes who can provide for those needs as well. They are just fewer and farther between, and they are less of a sure thing. Honestly it's just harder to prove to me as the breeder trying to place pups in appropriate homes that they can do so, whereas a work/sport home has an easier time at that because someone who's already involved in some sort of work/sport activity, or has definite plans to get involved, is showing their commitment to doing something with the dog, and thus is demonstrating that they are aware of the dog's needs and have a plan in place to provide for them. 

I want all of our dogs to also be pets and companions. That is the environment in which the GSD thrives most. My ideal home is the one where the dog is both work/sport partner AND pet. But if I had to choose one over the other, I would (and have) picked a qualified "just a pet" home over a working home where the dog would not be treated as a companion.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildThere are indeed many pet homes who can provide for a GSD's needs. They have the personality, lifestyle, and interests well suited to that, view their dogs not just as a member of the family but also as a hobby. In other words they like going out and doing things with their dog.


That pretty much describes us. We've had GSDs since 1986, it's the only breed of dog I've ever had as an adult, that I trained. But when we were considering Halo, our first working line dog, I was a bit apprehensive. She was listed as being suitable for an "working or active pet home", but exactly what does that mean? I had no idea if we would qualify as an active pet home. Our dogs are an active part of our lives, but we do both work for a living, so while our dogs get fun adventures every weekend they don't do a whole lot more during the week (especially in the winter when it's dark so early) than hang out with us, chew a bone, or chase each other around the house. So far, we haven't had a dog that wasn't happy with that, but would that be enough for Halo? I knew I didn't have the time and commitment necessary for Schutzhund, but I like training, I enjoy taking classes, and have had her in four different ones so far in her first year. I'm looking forward to taking some agility and/or flyball classes with her, but I may never actually compete in anything. 

Fortunately, I've posted enough stories and pictures here that her breeder was able to get a very good idea of the kind of lifestyle we have with our dogs and felt that we would be a good home for her. I remember her or someone else I was discussing Halo with before we made the decision, and she said that people often have big intentions of what they're going to do with their dog, but it ends up not happening and the dog needs to be able to adapt. If anything, I played down what my plans were because I didn't want to make any promises I may not be able to keep, and I wanted to make sure that we truly were going to be an appropriate home for her, even if she ended up being "just" a beloved pet. And it's nice to see Chris say that she would take a good pet home over a working home where the dog was not also a companion if she had to choose between the two. I see so often on here people talking about the vast amount of exercise GSDs need, hours and hours every single day, and think "EGADS!" I don't do anywhere near that much. Are there dogs that really NEED all that or is it just something those people enjoy doing and have the time for? That would deter many people from getting a GSD at all, especially a working line one. I'm glad we took the chance though, Halo is a lot of fun and we're really enjoying her!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> Chris Wild said:
> ...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chris, you gave a very eloquent and informative post about "the label working homes". You explain in depth very well, and I have said on this forum many times "that everybody" should not own a GS". Why? Because of what you wrote....you are warm and fuzzy amd I am blunt and to the point. We're saying the same things for the same reasons. We are targeting different audiences though. My comments are for the usually fairly knowledgable people who may have fallen victim to the many wives tales out there that are perpetrated by the less informed. Your comments usually spoon feed the details of the general comments. 
I don't even like the label of working line, don't like the label of reputable breeder, and don't like the label of Health guarantees. I believe in none of the above mentioned. (Guess that really makes me a BYB to some on this board). But, to me these labels accentuate the differences of specialty breeding and detract from the total dog. Do I expect everybody to see it my way...Heaven forbid!!...Many of these things are crutches for people to not do their homework before acquiring or "breeding" a dog. So these labels enable many consumers to make selections. To me these shortcuts are detrimental to the breed, but this is just my opinion. But, people who truly have a knowledge and love for the breed will usually understand and generally agree with each other.(Keeping in mind that I don't consider people that breed GS that are extremes or physically, mentally, or healthwise defective as being knowledgable or love the breed as they breed to change it not for the better..JMO)
Case in point, workinglines can't be good pets...where did this nonsense come from????When I hear people say this or BELIEVE this I know I am dealing with a person of limited exposure to the breed. Some you can help, most you can't because "they know what they know"!
I'll end with this, 30 years ago you wouldn't find an AKC obedience person use a prong collar while training their dog. OMG, you were cruel, inhumane, "those SCh dogs" that bite indiscriminately were the only people who used them. TODAY, I see people from the breed ring that will use these collars as well as "most AKC obedience" people. Has the collar changed in past thirty years, or was it ignorance that was fueling the opinions back then....hmmmmm!..peace!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DocAs a breeder, I feel responsible to make sure a potential buyer understands what a German shepherd needs as far as exercise and mental challenges. Often, if the buyer has never had a German shepherd, they are unaware of what is really required. Previous owners at least have their experiences.
> 
> A strong commitment from the owner to the needs of the German shepherd is essential for a good experience. Breeders should make it a point to explain to buyers such needs.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: DocAs a young man, I was fired based on my aloofness! I hope I come back as a German shepherd in my next life.
> ...


Well back then we settled our differences with a showdown in the middle of the town. I guess I won! roflmoao


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

"In classical psychology, projection is always seen as a defense mechanism that occurs when a person's own unacceptable or threatening feelings are repressed and then attributed to someone else."

"Transference is the redirection of feelings and desires and especially of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object."

One of the sad consequences of the dog-human relationship is that all too often, dogs get used by people in psychopathological phenomena as transference objects or to subconsciously project on. One of the challenges is to evaluate potential dog owners to ensure they are not subject to these kinds of psychopathology. I think that a lot of the specializations or divergence into types of GSDs are expressions of this phenomena.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ocean, you are sooooo right!! Its about what they feel, want, like, as opposed to what "it should be"....great post!! Being as nobody here created the breed for personal purposes!!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Funny story, many years ago I worked on tree farm. The manager was an old man who had done this type work his entire life. He took me out one day to prune trees. I had no idea what to do. The old man looked at me and told me to watch him. He set off down a row of trees and trimmed non stop for about 1/2 hour. Carefully selecting which branches to cut, what branches to leave. As he finished the last tree in the row he looked at me and asked if I understood how to prune trees now. I know I had that deer in the headlight look so I asked him, "how do you know what to cut and what to leave - how do you know what to do"? The old man was silent and could tell that I was frustrated then spoke some words I never forgot. He said "son, I listen to the trees, they tell me what I need to do. A lot times in nature, you have to listen and watch."

I think some current German shepherd breeders should of worked with that old man.


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## valkyriegsd (Apr 20, 2000)

While I don't disagree with you at all, it's really frustrating for the beginner to try an learn HOW to do something from someone who doesn't even have to _think_ about it anymore and can't explain it! A lot of valuable information gets lost that way, because everyone ends up having to learn everything for themselves from scratch...

Of course, a lot of problems arise when you have people following 'the rules' they were taught without thought or understanding, so I guess you need BOTH to do well at anything!!


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