# hope it don`t freak anybody out



## pigeon man (Feb 17, 2010)

i raise pigeons - i had one that i was gonna cull - i thought i`d give it to SALEEN well she loved it - only thing left was feathers - and no this bird wasan`t banded....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have considered raising both rabbits and chickens for meat, but I would never give my girls a live one for food. I really don't need that kind of prey drive, and a living breathing creature that we are responsible for ought to be killed with a minimum amount of trauma. I don't know how you can guaranty that giving it to a dog to kill. 

I have seen Frodo kill a mouse, and his first one was really a drawn out process where he was grabbing it with his foot and then jumping back. Finally I took a broom and flung the mouse outside. 

I raise puppies. If I would need to cull one, I would make sure it was quick, because generally when we raise a critter, we have some feelings for it. 

I guess this does not freak me out, but it does disgust me a little bit.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

My parents own a farm, they raise meat animals - sheep, chickens, turkeys. They also have barn cats and have to protect their land from other animals like foxes, racoons, etc. Death is a common occurrence, but it's always as quick and humane as possible.

I hope the bird was already dead, for reasons Selzer has already mentioned. If it was, I would only worry about them getting a taste for that animal and seeing them as food. Not a good thing


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

My guys catch, kill and eat rabbits, voles and other critters in our field. It's called 'Nature' and it's usually the sick or elderly ones that can't outrun the pack that get eaten.

Trust me - a dog can make a very quick kill.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They can, but they do not always do. Killing a wild thing is nature, no problem with a dog doing that, except, I am not really wanting that kind of prey drive. 

But for critters we take out of the wild, and who are raised by us, to trust us, I could not give them into the teeth of a dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am not sure pigeon man gave the pigeon live to the dog. Said it was a cull. Maybe he dispatched it first.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't have a problem with it, if you don't. I am too squeamish to do it myself. When I get a house, I will raise chicken & ducks for eggs. Rabbits is a good idea, but I need a man around to turn it in to dog food.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The "and no, this bird wasn't banded" made me believe that he gave it to the dog when it could have flown and gotten away. But his fast, killer dog was able to catch it before it managed to get away. That is disturbing, to me anyway. The pigeon was old enough to fly, didn't have its wings clipped, and was given to a dog. That means the bird trusted the man and he gave it to the dog to be eaten. Yeah that bothers me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I agree with Selzer...it doesn't freak me out, but it disgust me and not a little bit. I would never give my dog a live animal to hunt and kill or allow it to do so. Dogs are domesticated and them killing their prey is not really a part of nature anymore. Dogs aren't wild anymore. If it was a dog that is on the street and its the only way for it to survive, I can understand it better, because there is no human there to feed it. I could never allow my dogs to kill another breathing thing, the guilt would probably kill me


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> That means the bird trusted the man and he gave it to the dog to be eaten. Yeah that bothers me.


I'm with you 100%..I couldn't even imagine doing something like that.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The 'wasn't' banded part is probably in case people get upset that the dog ate a piece of metal.  I don't know if the bird was alive or dead, but that is pigeon man's business, his pigeon. 

Keeta has often pounced and killed birds, mice, baby rabbits, and ate them. Gryff will take fresh kill away from the cats and eat it. I find it 'normal', they are animals: predators.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, was it one I was gonna cull, or one I culled. 

It reads like the bird was alive. 

Yes, maybe it is his business, his pigeons. Let's say there is a pup born that I feel ought to be culled, should I pass it over to one of my other bitches so she can kill and eat it. Because some bitches will kill another bitch's pups. Cats will. If you want to cull a litter of kittens, should you give them to a tom? Or how about your dog? 

It is disgusting if you care about the critters that your are culling. And if you are keeping critters that you really don't care about than that is disgusting too. And yes, even if you are raising them for meat. I understand that people have to have a mindset when you are raising critters for meat, but it shouldn't be heartless.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe the banded part was to ensure that the bird was not someone else's bird. Who knows. I think it is pretty normal for a dog to kill and eat a wild critter, but if a critter is yours, I find it a rather repulsive way to cull.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lots of assumptions going on here...was the bird alive? was it dead? was it a pet?


People used to, and probably still do, eat pigeons. why can't the dog? Our outside cats catch birds


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So if you raise sheep, and people and dogs eat lamb. Should you hand your spring lambs over to your dogs to cull them? I couldn't.

I raised a baby robin as a youngster. We fed the bird and sheltered it until it was able to fly. Every morning it would be in our garden, and we could walk up to it and pick it up. It could fly and it would fly away in the evening. It trusted us. 

A neighborhood cat got it. I certainly would have never caused that to happen.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Our outside cats catch birds


Versus your inside cats? This is a whole different topic. I have five cats, all indoor, I do not believe cats should be outdoors. They do their share of hunting, but they are hunted also. I can't stand when people let their cats outside so I can see them dead in the street because they got hit by a car, or I hear it crying in the middle of the night because a coyote got it or their cats are pooping on my lawn and/or spraying on my screen door.....Okay I'm done ranting, you guys can keep on talking pigeons


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Talking in generalities since we don't know if the bird in question was alive or dead, we have a responsibility to limit the pain and fear of our meat producing animals, (like chickens and rabbits), just as we do our 'pets'. I think it would be cruel to give it to our pet for the sport of catching/killing its meal. It didn't have a chance as they do in the wild. They are tame and won't run at first sight of us.


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## stealle (Feb 2, 2013)

selzer said:


> I understand that people have to have a mindset when you are raising critters for meat, but it shouldn't be heartless.


Your posts are cracking me up selzer!

So the pigeons "trust" him. So that somehow means only he should kill them. And, he "raised" them. So he should kill them nicely. 

I'm gonna guess the "not banded" comment was to let us know the dog did not eat a piece of metal. I'm also gonna guess that his dog did the killing. Probably did it as quicker than a human could kill it. Have you ever actually seen a pigeon killed? I have. When their head comes off the body takes off running around and flipping all over the place. It can take a few minutes for that to stop. A dog would have probably completely eaten it less time. Just sayin'.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Our pups go to homes with people that have birds and cats, and other critters. I have a pup out there living with a bird. If I raised birds, I would not want my dog to kill and eat the birds I have been raising. 

And yes, when we care for a domestic animal we have a responsibility to that animal to ensure that if we can we make sure it goes easy. 

I think it is disgusting to take a critter you raised and give it to another critter you have as a pet to kill and eat. And, I am pretty sure pigeon man knows that it would disgust some of us.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

whats with this run of threads lately where new members make potentially highly emotionally charged threads and never once reply on them, seems a bit suspect to me??


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I agree with Selzer.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Versus your inside cats? This is a whole different topic. I have five cats, all indoor, I do not believe cats should be outdoors. They do their share of hunting, but they are hunted also. I can't stand when people let their cats outside so I can see them dead in the street because they got hit by a car, or I hear it crying in the middle of the night because a coyote got it or their cats are pooping on my lawn and/or spraying on my screen door.....Okay I'm done ranting, you guys can keep on talking pigeons


Sorry, but sometimes they just have to be. I've got an outdoor cat. She was feral and trapped as a kitten. She's just tame enough that sometimes she likes to be scratched, but she gets really antsy inside and hides. She likes being outside and she does plenty of hunting out in the barn and pasture.

...I do wish she'd stop leaving her kills on the porch, though.

Also, on the actual topic in question, I see no problem with feeding a pigeon to your dog, but I would much prefer the thing had been humanely killed first. Yes, dogs and cats are predators, but when you're feeding them captive-raised birds, it's not exactly nature anyhow, is it?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

pigeon man said:


> *i raise pigeons* - i had one that i was gonna cull - i thought i`d give it to SALEEN well she loved it - only thing left was feathers - and no this bird wasan`t banded....


I'm not too bothered by culling a bird, not wasting it and using it as a food source for the dog. I suspect, even if the bird was alive at the time, it's death was quick. 

I'd be more worried about creating a drive in the dog for live pigeons. Assuming your raising them for a specific reason (sport, hobby etc.) providing the dog with a live bird could build drive that you don't want.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

x11 said:


> whats with this run of threads lately where new members make potentially highly emotionally charged threads and never once reply on them, seems a bit suspect to me??


First, he's not a "new member". Second, he often doesn't reply or really discuss things in depth.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Eh, I got into this with another person recently about feeding domestic rats to her dogs, live. To me, it cannot be compared to a dog catching vermin on it's own or killing to eat in the wild. And NO, not all dogs are skilled killers. So it is not 'humane' a lot of the time. 

I do have a problem with live-feeding anything domesticated unless it will starve itself to death otherwise. I prefer the least amount of cruelty in any situation. Just my opinion.

No problem at all with you feeding birds to your dogs if you killed it first, though there wouldn't be much of a meal unless you were feeding a chihuahua. I'd like to raise chickens/quail and etc. for meat and eggs, I have no issue with it as long as they are treated with some kindness and respect as a living being.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Lilie said:


> I'm not too bothered by culling a bird, not wasting it and using it as a food source for the dog. I suspect, even if the bird was alive at the time, it's death was quick.
> 
> I'd be more worried about creating a drive in the dog for live pigeons. Assuming your raising them for a specific reason (sport, hobby etc.) providing the dog with a live bird could build drive that you don't want.


This. And...

I was just thinking yesterday I could probably raise some rabbits for my dogs in my current location...I want chickens, as well, and in a bad way, but that will have to wait until I move somewhere else.

And honestly, I was wondering whether I would have to kill and skin them myself, or make my life that much easier and let the dogs do it all. Only briefly, though!

My gut just tells me it's probably a bad idea. I guess, primarily, I want my dogs to continue to recognize ME as their sole provider...as in, I made the kill that they get to share, and not them. They're not in charge of that much around here.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

JackandMattie said:


> And honestly, I was wondering whether I would have to kill and skin them myself, or make my life that much easier and let the dogs do it all.


I agree about humanely killing them instead of feeding them live. However, why would you skin them? I've always felt the one important thing missing from our dogs' raw diets is fur or feathers. I'm ordering some rabbit feet to feed this week, fur and all.

.


JackandMattie said:


> I guess, primarily, I want my dogs to continue to recognize ME as their sole provider...as in, I made the kill that they get to share, and not them. They're not in charge of that much around here.


You are over thinking here.


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## pigeon man (Feb 17, 2010)

*i guess it didn`t freak anybody out*

well a big responce - the bird wasan`t banded cause i was late in banding that pair of babies . these are [ ORIENTAL ROLLERS ] - I FLY THEM AND HAVE HAD THESE FOR EVER I WAS BORN AROUND PIGEONS - MY DAD RAISED RACING HOMERS - THE BIRD I USED WAS GONNA BE CULLED BY ME CAUSE IT WAS A RUNT - IF YOU SERIOUSLY RAISE PIGEONS YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO CULL BIRDS [ PERIOD ] . I WAS ON MY WAY TO CULL THE BIRD [ WHICH IS DONE BY PUTTING IT`S NECK BETWEEN YOU FIRST 2 FINGERS AND SHAKING AT THAT POINT TO BREAK IT`S NECK - AND IF YOU DID CUT A PIGEON`S HEAD OFF IT WOULD NOT RUN AROUND IT WOULD LIE SILENT [ DEAD ] THAT PERSON MUST BE THINKING ABOUT CHICKENS - WELL ANYWAY I SAID TO MYSELF WHY NOT SEE WHAT SALEEN WILL DO AND I PUT THE BIRD ON THE GROUND [ LOOSE ] AND SHE CAUGHT IT AND KINDA PLAYED WITH IT A FEW MINUTES AND THEN RIPPED IT APART [ LIKE THEY NORMALLY WOULD DO IN WILD - - I AM LOOKING FOR A BREED CALLED [ KINGS ] THEY ARE USED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION [ SQUAB ] AND WILL GIVE HER THESE AS PART OF HER DIET - I AM SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANYONE - BUT NEXT TIME I WILL KILL THE BIRD BEFORE LETTING HER DEVOUR IT - OH - I LOVE MY G.S.D. VERY MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Ocean said:


> I agree about humanely killing them instead of feeding them live. However, why would you skin them? I've always felt the one important thing missing from our dogs' raw diets is fur or feathers. I'm ordering some rabbit feet to feed this week, fur and all.


They don't _eat_ the fur and feathers?!? At least mine didn't when they caught that raccoon baby that one time...that's how I knew what they'd caught was by the furballs left behind. Possibly you mean feeding "fur intact" for the added mental stimulation it would take on their part?



Ocean said:


> You are over thinking here.


Most likely, lol.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

pigeon man said:


> well a big responce - the bird wasan`t banded cause i was late in banding that pair of babies . these are [ ORIENTAL ROLLERS ] - I FLY THEM AND HAVE HAD THESE FOR EVER I WAS BORN AROUND PIGEONS - MY DAD RAISED RACING HOMERS - THE BIRD I USED WAS GONNA BE CULLED BY ME CAUSE IT WAS A RUNT - IF YOU SERIOUSLY RAISE PIGEONS YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO CULL BIRDS [ PERIOD ] . I WAS ON MY WAY TO CULL THE BIRD [ WHICH IS DONE BY PUTTING IT`S NECK BETWEEN YOU FIRST 2 FINGERS AND SHAKING AT THAT POINT TO BREAK IT`S NECK - AND IF YOU DID CUT A PIGEON`S HEAD OFF IT WOULD NOT RUN AROUND IT WOULD LIE SILENT [ DEAD ] THAT PERSON MUST BE THINKING ABOUT CHICKENS - WELL ANYWAY I SAID TO MYSELF WHY NOT SEE WHAT SALEEN WILL DO AND I PUT THE BIRD ON THE GROUND [ LOOSE ] AND SHE CAUGHT IT AND KINDA PLAYED WITH IT A FEW MINUTES AND THEN RIPPED IT APART [ LIKE THEY NORMALLY WOULD DO IN WILD - - I AM LOOKING FOR A BREED CALLED [ KINGS ] THEY ARE USED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION [ SQUAB ] AND WILL GIVE HER THESE AS PART OF HER DIET - I AM SORRY IF I OFFENDED ANYONE - BUT NEXT TIME I WILL KILL THE BIRD BEFORE LETTING HER DEVOUR IT - OH - I LOVE MY G.S.D. VERY MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!


You didn't freak us out, but we're in the raw feeders forum, so probably already less squeamish than most people out there 

I think you're doing the right thing, breaking the neck first, especially since it took the dog a few minutes. Maybe if the dog didn't play with it's food? Maybe that would be an unnatural dog that wouldn't play for the first time with a little bird, haha!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Only he didn't break its neck first. He just handed it to his dog to do the killing after it caught it and played with it. 

I really don't give a darn about pigeons. My neighbor growing up used to give us an air gun and instruct us to kill pigeons. Of course we found it more fun to shoot at each other. But whatever. I just wouldn't use my dog as a killing machine, particularly of critters I was raising. 

And, if I do own something alive with a nervous system, and it needs to be killed, I am going to ensure it is done fast, and with the least amount of trauma to the critter. Animals feel pain and fear, and giving an animal to a predator, turning a predator lose on an animal is disgusting.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

But OP said he will kill it first next time, and the way he describes it is swift. I was saying I agree with his decision for the future 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you raise critters, you will probably have to put some down. If you can put the critter down, and then provide the dog with fresh meat, more power to you. 

If your dog comes across a wild critter, rat, rabbit, bird, fish, and it kills and eats it, so long as no one is poisoning rats in your area, I really don't have a problem with that. But I would not encourage it. 

Ok, I did try to get a couple of my girls to go after some encroaching mice. But they were worthless in that capacity. They do not seem to feel I need to be protected from mice.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> Ok, I did try to get a couple of my girls to go after some encroaching mice. But they were worthless in that capacity. They do not seem to feel I need to be protected from mice.


Hehe! I guess the mice weren't very scary!



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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If there was just one thing I could communicate to them better about...

Mice and spiders ARE a threat!


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