# Psychiatric Service Dog Questions-warning long



## Capone22

I am just starting some research on PSDs. This is a bit embarrassing to just put it all out there, but I don't know who else to ask these questions, so here goes =) I have been diagnosed and have been on many different medications for about 10 years now, for generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and depression. I could have PTSD in my records as well, not sure. I don't want to be on medication anymore, I have been in the process of weaning off for the past few months. I think a PSD would highly benefit me. I am considering training Rogue (my 8 month old GSD I have now) if she passes an evaluation. I think for PSD the most important qualification would be solid nerves. An anxious dog would NOT be good 

So my questions are:
1. Can I have her as a PSD and also let her be involved in French Ring?

2. She has issues with certain surfaces. Shiny slippery or high ones. Although its something we work on and she over comes it easily. She hasn't generalized it yet though, its just over come with that specific place/floor/ or high object. For example, when she was a pup and it had rained the tile in our entry way must have been wet and she slipped running to go outside. She started avoiding it. So I put food on it every so often, and even fed her dinner there one night. and that was it, she was over it. Has no problems with it now. But it does come up occasionally at other places. First time I took her to Lowes, same thing she didn't like the slippery floor. She started walking all low and claws out. I just continued to walk her around. She got over it in a couple minutes and walked normally. That is the only downfall I can see with her so far. Otherwise she's very stable, loves to work, likes people but is more aloof the older she gets. Loves kids, easy to train etc. 

3. When trained for anxiety and panic attacks, do the dogs actually recognize the panic attack or does the handler give them a command? 

4.Where do I go/who do I contact for an evaluation of her? and for future training?

To give you an idea of what I would like out of a PSD here is a list I have come up with so far,

*accompany me places, especially crowded places. I can get very overwhelmed and anxious in crowds. 

*I have fainted/passed out before from a panic attack. which is one of my biggest fears because I have children. I would like her to be trained to try and wake me up if that happens, ie: licking/barking/pawing at me. If at home I would like her to be able to call 911 if it happens, because my kids could be in danger if she could not get me to wake up quickly. 

*When I start getting anxious, distract me to try and snap me out of it or stop it from progressing. 

The biggest for me in the passing out/fainting from panic attacks. It is rare, but has happened. So that is the most important. 

If you have made it this far, thank you! looking forward to the replies and advice!!


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## JakodaCD OA

Talk to TJ or Linn here, hopefully they'll see this thread , I'm sure they can give you alot of help/advice/suggestions


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## Capone22

Thank you! I will. 


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## TiffC

1. I have no idea what the french ring is but if it involves any form of bite work/protection then the answer is no your dog cannot compete and still be a SD.
2. I would say keep trying to work with her on different surfaces but if she still has issues with surfaces after months of fear then it is likely that she may never be fully comfortable out in public. In which case she should not be used as a SD because it is just not fair to her. 
3. Some dogs can alert their handler to an oncoming attack but an alert cannot be trained. Only the response can be. So if your dog does not alert naturally then you would have to give a command that the dog can respond to.
4. Find a local service dog or therapy dog trainer and have her evaluated by them. Future training can be done by any trainer. 

Also just make sure that you qualify to have a SD. You have to be disabled, according to the ADA definition in order to have a SD. Just because you have some mental illness alone is not enough. Your disability has to substantially limit one or more major life activities. If you do not then your dog cannot be a SD. 

I hope this helped! I also have panic attacks that lead to blacking out so I know how it is.


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## EastGSD

I also have GAD. Right now it's stable but a few years ago it was not and being in crowed public places would bring on panic. I got a letter from my Psych to use a PSD. My Doxie Charlie is very good at noticing my anxiety and will make contact with me as well as get my attention this way. He was amazing for the task as he is sound in public, loves people, small and a calming influence. It worked very well. When my anxiety would peak and Charlie alerted me I would take a fast acting benzo and remove myself from the situation. My understanding from that time period as to using Charlie was the letter from my doctor. It would have to be reissued yearly. I no longer need Charlie when I go out so he stays home, I do not bring him to places for the heck of it. Just my experience, hope it is helpful. Feel better!


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## ILGHAUS

Capone22 said:


> I have been diagnosed and have been on many different medications for about 10 years now, for generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and depression. I could have PTSD in my records as well, not sure. I don't want to be on medication anymore, I have been in the process of weaning off for the past few months.
> 
> I think a PSD would highly benefit me.
> 
> I am considering training Rogue (my 8 month old GSD I have now) if she passes an evaluation. I think for PSD the most important qualification would be solid nerves. An anxious dog would NOT be good
> 
> So my questions are:
> 1. Can I have her as a PSD and also let her be involved in French Ring?
> 
> 2. She has issues with certain surfaces. ... That is the only downfall I can see with her so far. Otherwise she's very stable, loves to work, likes people but is more aloof the older she gets. Loves kids, easy to train etc.
> 
> 3. When trained for anxiety and panic attacks, do the dogs actually recognize the panic attack or does the handler give them a command?
> 
> 4.Where do I go/who do I contact for an evaluation of her? and for future training?
> 
> To give you an idea of what I would like out of a PSD here is a list I have come up with so far,
> 
> *accompany me places, especially crowded places. I can get very overwhelmed and anxious in crowds.
> 
> *I have fainted/passed out before from a panic attack. which is one of my biggest fears because I have children. I would like her to be trained to try and wake me up if that happens, ie: licking/barking/pawing at me. If at home I would like her to be able to call 911 if it happens, because my kids could be in danger if she could not get me to wake up quickly.
> 
> *When I start getting anxious, distract me to try and snap me out of it or stop it from progressing.
> 
> The biggest for me in the passing out/fainting from panic attacks. It is rare, but has happened. So that is the most important. ...


Lot of topics to address here. 

"I don't want to be on medication anymore,"

A PSD may affect the amount of medication you are currently taking -- OR it may not. I have known people who have taken medication for what you mentioned for years before a dog and continue taking medication years after. If a dog could help enough on that point where someone could toss their meds away it would be WONDERFUL, but life doesn't seem to work that way. 

A Service Dog of any type is a medical tool/equipment to be used along with whatever is deemed necessary by your medical care provider. It is possible that a dog can help lower your anxiety or depression levels or frequency but that doesn't make it a SD but in line what a loved pet can do for you.
_" ... the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition."_ ~ Dept. of Justice w/ Definition of Service Animal


_" ... I think for PSD the most important qualification would be solid nerves. An anxious dog would NOT be good ... "_

This is so very important. If the handler is having a meltdown, thinks an army of scary things are attacking, or believes there is a good chance that ... (fill in whatever scares you), a proper PSD needs to be able to basically say:
"Stop. Let us pause here and evaluate. You, the other part of the team are not at this particular moment in time in a calm mind set, so I temporary acting as your backup, need to consider quickly how to take care of us while you calm yourself and can take the decision making back over for us."

A PSD can never be a dog that wants to take over the lead position but because of their personality, work ethic, and team drive are capable to take over some of the decision making and because of their training know how to carry through. 

*A PSD can not react to his handler's incorrect fears by taking them on his own.*

Handler not able to go into their dark home when they return. The dog can not sit there by the handler's legs and shake in fear because "something" is in there even though the dog can not hear or smell anything or anyone strange inside. The dog has to react in a "hey, you stay here, I've got this covered for you" and proceed into the house doing a quick sniff and look into all rooms, turning on any lights that he has been trained to turn on, and go back to the handler. 

_"*accompany me places, especially crowded places. I can get very overwhelmed and anxious in crowds."_

Just by being there at your side is not a PSD task. At the most, being able to glance down and see your dog or reaching down and stroking his soft fur is a bonus of having him close by. Some people are able to do the same by carrying something in a pocket (piece of material), on a bracelet (a charm holding a picture of a loved one), or some other object on their person. To be something that makes this dog a SD of any type is that he is doing something that he was trained to do to mitigate your disability. 

IF when you get overwhelmed in a crowd to the point you loose your vision then your dog can (through training) act much like a Guide Dog in this instance and safely guide you through the crowd and to a quiet place. If you react by getting dizzy and unable to walk without falling then your dog can (through training) act much like a Mobility Dog in this instance and help brace you so you can catch your balance and then help you walk through the crowd by a means such as counter-balance. 


_"Can I have her as a PSD and also let her be involved in French Ring?"_

Grey area here. So far Federal Law doesn't address it but it is possible that at any time a State may pop it into their statutes or if on the chance your dog ever bit someone -- even just an open mouth on skin, an air snap at someone, a pinch but no broken skin -- a lawyer for the other side could bring that up and it could be used against your dog. It is also possible that your insurance company would not cover your dog if they found out that she participated in any type of sport involving using her mouth on a person. If not now they could turn around in six months and say not going to cover her. This may not be quite as important if your dog is a pet or sport dog only and never really deals in such close quarters with strangers as a SD is expected to. 


Time for a break here .....


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## EastGSD

Right. The notable difference between a PSD and an Emotional Support Animal would be the dog doing something either trained or a particular trait that assists the handler. This is beyond just being present to help calm. Charlie had an innate ability to sense my anxiety attacks and would signal me before I was even aware of what was happening to me ( sounds crazy but no, an anxiety attack is not always apparent to sufferers until its much too late) He would always do the same things. He would sit on my feet and basically refuse to move while staring up at me. I learned to listen to him and prevent severe attacks that made going out of the house hellish for me. He was instrumental in my recovery from that time in my life ( long story but basically was so overwhelmed that I couldn't think. This was when the board and online friends also stopped seeing me.) it is rare to have a dog like Charlie that has an innate sense of something, like also in many seizure alert dogs. 

I would not want to imply to just throw a vest on your pet and walk them in public places, I have too much respect for SAs and the SA community. I was simply very fortunate to notice my dog was tuned in to me like this and having it not cause him to become apprehensive. He really was/is amazing and a God send. 

If you are seeing a psychiatrist they should also be able to advise you and or assist. 


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## ILGHAUS

_Cont. from my previous post ..._

_" She has issues with certain surfaces. "_

That in part could be from her breeding and/or lack of proper *habituation* from wee pup on. Not that you have necessary done something wrong but most pet owners are not concerned with this area as is someone with a SD Candidate.

I was just in a discussion on the topic of habituation yesterday with two local dog trainers. They like myself do this as an automatic with all of our own dogs even those who we think will probably much never leave our property except for a car ride, a visit to the vet, maybe to pop in and spend some time with other family members, or a basic walk. But a SD needs to be able to handle any type of walking surface that their handler could face or if it is really something off the wall then the dog needs to have enough confidence in their handler by past experiences to go with the handler. Pups should experience grass, sidewalks, dirt paths, carpet, wood flooring, tile, etc. We use every kind of surface we can think of during this process from walking over chain link fencing laying flat on the ground, plastic shower curtains and rolls of sheeting, gravel, piles of (safe) trash, cardboard, rubber matting, leaves, etc. etc. etc.


"*I have fainted/passed out before from a panic attack. which is one of my biggest fears because I have children. I would like her to be trained to try and wake me up if that happens, ie: licking/barking/pawing at me."

A SD of (PSD or other) can be trained to stand over or lay down on their handler to keep them safe -- if this is needed. Or they can be trained to go to a specific person or to the closest individual they see to get assistance for you. 
~ If they are to approach a stranger then it is best to have the dog wearing a cape stating that it is a SD. 
~ They should be trained how best to approach and how best to act once they get someone's attention. You don't want them to touch or come on too strong and have the stranger think the dog is acting in an aggressive manner. 
~ Your PSD must allow a stranger to approach you and to touch you to administer first aid or other medical treatment. This part you need to sit back and think about how you will handle such a situation. It would be best to discuss this with your medical care provider so that you have a system in place whereas you can get through such a situation. 

With what ever method that you choose on how your dog is to assist to wake you up keep in mind her strength and size. Pawing by a 10 lb dog with very well kept nails would not be the same as that by a 80lb or 90lb. GSD unless you could train her to do so very gently and in a very specific location or two. Many people find a large wet tongue across the face a time or two will bring them around pretty quickly in most cases. 


_"If at home I would like her to be able to call 911 if it happens, because my kids could be in danger if she could not get me to wake up quickly." _

Very doable with a special large button that is mounted on the wall but could be a problem with small children wanting to also push it from time to time.


_"*When I start getting anxious, distract me to try and snap me out of it or stop it from progressing."_

A dog can be trained to pick up on your "tells" and respond in whatever manner you have trained her such as if at home she could go and bring you her brush to groom her. Whatever method you pick you need to practice it until you do so automatically without much thought on your part. 


As to evaluations and training you need to find a very good trainer in your area. Then sit down and discuss with them a plan of action. Find out if they have experience with working dogs or if you will need to later find a different trainer to work with the tasks. 

No matter the type of Assistance Dog first comes obedience and lots of it along with proofing and working the obedience commands not only in your home or yard but in many other locations and under lots of distractions. 

Contrary to many, a dog does not need to be trained in a mall or a grocery store to later know how to behave in such. A SD can be fully trained in locations open and available to any pet or where permission by the owner (please don't ask where the owner could later be served with a health code violation) has been given.


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## ILGHAUS

EastGSD, I love hearing about these special ones that come into people's lives as your Charlie did for you. 

"the dog doing something either trained or a particular trait that assists the handler."

Taking this good thought just a bit further for clarification. An Assistance Dog of any type must per the Dept. of Justice be *trained*.
"“Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability ... must be directly related to the handler´s disability."

Any thing the dog does on its own is not a trained task in of itself. Those dogs who naturally alert (a real blessing for their owner) are then trained to respond in a certain manner through training. It is the trained task that makes a SD under the regulations of the Dept. of Justice. If you take you dog out into the community as a SD and claim Public Access Rights then you must follow this requirement of the DOJ.


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## Capone22

wow. Thank you all for the responses. A lot to think about here! 

As for qualifying for PSD vs. the emotional support animal, would the passing out qualify that? For example, last time I fainted happened to be in the hospital. lol My 4 year old daughter had just had surgery and I was walking back to her. I don't like hospitals as it is, but seeing her crying in pain and the things in her arms and all that I started to have a panic attack. Cold sweat, racing heart, turning white, full on panic mode. I tried really hard to just focus on her because she obviously really wanted me and needed me but I felt it coming. I told the nurse I was going to pass out, she sat me in a chair and bam I was out. Took a while to get me to come back and then I passed back out. It was SO embarrassing LOL but anyways, the time before that was at a restaurant and luckily my mom was with me. 

Obviously, my fear is of doing that alone, with my kids, although it has never happened. If it came down to it, for at home I could always just train her myself with either a code word, or if she saw me fall, to go press a button for 911. That would be easy enough.


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## Capone22

EastGSD said:


> I also have GAD. Right now it's stable but a few years ago it was not and being in crowed public places would bring on panic. I got a letter from my Psych to use a PSD. My Doxie Charlie is very good at noticing my anxiety and will make contact with me as well as get my attention this way. He was amazing for the task as he is sound in public, loves people, small and a calming influence. It worked very well. When my anxiety would peak and Charlie alerted me I would take a fast acting benzo and remove myself from the situation. My understanding from that time period as to using Charlie was the letter from my doctor. It would have to be reissued yearly. I no longer need Charlie when I go out so he stays home, I do not bring him to places for the heck of it. Just my experience, hope it is helpful. Feel better!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am happy he was so helpful for your recovery :wub:


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## TiffC

From what I've been told passing out alone does not qualify. Because you can generally sense passing out coming on you have enough time to react. For instance you could get one of those emergency button necklaces and hit the button yourself if you feel like you are going to pass out. Also because passing out doesn't happen frequently it is not really limiting a life function. Seizures do limit a life function because people with seizures usually can't drive and have trouble working due to not knowing when the seizure will happen. 

While I do pass out, my blackouts are usually more seizure like-going down for long periods of time over a minute, shaking, losing control of my bladder on at least one occasion, and not being able to wake myself up (even after passing out and being in a flat position will not cause me to regain consciousness like a normal episode of passing out will for others). I have not spoken to a doctor about it, some have seen it but haven't said anything because I am usually with my mom and she knows what to do. However, this is not the reason I have a PSD because it doesn't really limit a life function. My other issues do and that is why I have a PSD.


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## Lin

I haven't read the whole thread here.... 

But as for "qualifying" for a SD, you have to meet legal requirements of disabled as opposed to medical requirements of being disabled. Medical requirements being a Dr considering you disabled, or writing a note in your file for an ESA. 

The definition of disability is from section 902, but was also addressed with the law changes from the ADA amendment act of 2008. 
Section 902 Definition of the Term Disability
ADA Title I Who has rights?
Changes to the definition of disability under the ADAAA of 2008 | Service Dog Central


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## EastGSD

Charlie was trained to ride along on carts at stores  (being cute) I also had horrible chronic pain at the time and he rode on the floor board near my feet. 

I did discuss all this with my doc at the time and Charlie did fit something that was of a temporary nature. Meaning I did have to have the letter and it was only good for twelve months. Realize that's my people look down on PSDs or ESAs within the SD community unfortunately. The training aspect I get but there was nothing else I needed from Charlie other than being aware and signaling me, I fit all the qualifications I just did not need my dog to perform another behavior than that which he was already. I know why they point out training and IMO it has more to do with making sure many people don't start taking their dogs everywhere since businesses are reluctant to challenge.

I get it but Charlie was my service dog. He helped me be able to leave my home again and not be afraid to go out in public. He gave me confidence to attempt to live again by me knowing I would not suddenly wig out and embarrass myself ( us GAD/panic sufferers worry about this a lot which causes more anxiety ) Charlie also provoked me to interact with people because who doesn't want to talk to you when you're walking in Walmart with a Dachshund? I only used Charlie as long as I had to and was sure he never made SDs look bad. He actually caused education. If I were challenged in court I would probably lose but only because he was not trained to do what he does. He does it on his own. I wasn't looking to go to court though and would not have fought if challenged. I just wanted to be able to go shopping again. I accomplished my need and goal and no longer take him because it would be wrong, I don't need him to do what he does anymore. I hope I'm making sense? In my case it was not about a long term service dog or taking the dog in restaurants (didn't go) or taking on the establishment. I read the ADA law and felt it applied to my situation. Until they really have some type of certification for SDs there will be fuzzy lines and situations. 

Ill pass on the love to my old man here  he says to be strong and smile. 


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## Lin

EastGSD said:


> If I were challenged in court I would probably lose but only because he was not trained to do what he does. He does it on his own.


To be perfectly honest, a lot of what you said raised flags in my mind. And here you basically admitted that he wasn't actually a service dog. Tasks have to be trained for the dog to be a SD. Like the example of seizure alerting, since its not something that can be trained it itself cannot qualify a dog as a SD. However a dog who alerts to seizures can be trained a seizure response, and trained the obedience and public access requirements to be a SD. 

I understand where you're coming from. I have psychological disabilities as well. And there are TONS of extras that a SD provides that can make a huge difference in life. But, theres no reason why someone who meets requirements of a legal disability and receives help from their dog can't go through the proper training to make the dog an actual SD. Unless of course the dog can't meet those requirements, which of course is a whole different problem and of course that dog couldn't be used as a SD period. 

In your situation its kind of a moot point since its in the past. But I think its important to address to ensure someone doesn't repeat someone else's mistakes. 

And with that.... I'll say that generally riding in a cart is looked down upon by those in the SD community and SD organizations. There just isn't a good reason for a dog to ride in the cart, a SD has the ability to walk alongside their handler. But riding in the cart can bother other individuals using the store, as well as the employees and owner of the store. Dirt from the dogs paws, shedding hair, dog saliva could end up inside the shopping cart. Real or imagined, and it can affect other shoppers and the store. We never want to affect other shoppers in a negative way, again real or imagined. 

Capone: I also wanted to bring up that there can be a big negative for anxiety in using a service dog. I have issues with generalized anxiety, social anxiety, and PTSD myself. Being out in public with a SD brings a lot of stares from people, approaching strangers, occasional harassment from employees... As a plus, I've become much better at dealing with all of the above haha. But it was very difficult in the beginning and truly added a lot of anxiety.

I think its important to look at the "negative" side when considering things. And there is a negative no matter the reason, not just PSDs. My dog is a mobility assistance service dog. But the frequent bathing and extra grooming she requires to be used in public places can contribute to my pain and fatigue. And its not just SDs, unloading and loading my wheelchair also adds to my pain and fatigue


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## EastGSD

Red flags? That implies danger or something. Sorry far from that. 

"Real SD?" Charlie is/was/may be a "real SD." Charlie is OB trained and learned unique environments as a result of his "work." Escalators, elevators, any floor surface. Crowds, schools, etc He heels, sits when taught to. Strangers, children stepping on his paw no problem. What else for my specific disability is he required to do in addition to paying attention to me, sitting on my feet and refusing to move as an alert to me to take my needed medication? Charlie was/is/may be a PSD not a dog that is trained to open doors and press switches. 

This is kinda what I meant about acceptance. My saying "in court" meant as in deciding to challenge being denied access, I'm not sure I'd succeed. That doesn't mean I felt he was not a real or appropriate PSD. the issue is the language of the law and how it applies in one judges eyes or the next. This is the problem with this issue. Who decides what is correct and appropriate?

No, red flags isn't fair or accurate. Charlie worked with me for about three years. IMO he stopped a bad case of agoraphobia from happening. 

As for the Walmart cart? Seriously? I have all those things on my clothing; dog hair, saliva, dander, dirt on my shoes. Should I not sit on the cart? He is a 16 lb Doxie, he couldn't walk next to it, it wasn't safe for him. While I was being cute above, as I said, this was not a joke on my part or entertainment. 

No, I won't take kindly to someone implying I did something wrong or that my PSD was/is not a "real" SD. I don't really need anyone's approval that's what the ADA law is for. 


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## Xeph

Lin's point is that it doesn't matter if you FEEL he's an SD. Legally, it sounds like he's not. If I'm understanding correctly, you didn't actually TRAIN him to do what he does to mitigate your disability. That's what disqualifies him from being a SD.


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## NietzschesMomma

I lost my SD (GSD) in 2011 at the age of 16 1/2. He was a SD, not a therapy dog.

He was trained to retrieve my medication for me when I became to ill, was able to alert me to the fact that I was becoming ill before I knew myself, was trained to help me get to other rooms in the house (bathroom, for example) if I could not get up by myself, among many other tasks. 

Dogs must be able to complete specific physical tasks, directly related to your disability. I am now training my new pup, to follow in my old dog's footsteps, it's been VERY difficult without him. If, and big if, she is able to complete these tasks for me, will my doctor then again give me the needed documentation. It makes me really mad to see people abusing this, and I fear that someday, no one will be permitted to have true SD's in public. Just my 2 cents, but that's just how I feel.


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## ILGHAUS

How someone feels or believes does not change a law. Main point that must be followed is *individually trained* to do work or perform tasks for (people with disabilities) the benefit of an individual with a disability.

All words in bold were done so by me to further bring to reader's attention.

Per the Dept. of Justice, Civil Rights Division, Disability Rights Section on Title II and Title III of the ADA:
*Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities.*
Revised ADA Requirements: Service Animals

As signed into law on July 23, 2010 the Dept. of Justice definition of a service animal:
“Service animal means any dog that is *individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability*, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not service animals for the purposes of this definition. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the individual´s disability. Examples of work or tasks include, but are not limited to, assisting individuals who are blind or have low vision with navigation and other tasks, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to the presence of people or sounds, providing non-violent protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, assisting an individual during a seizure, alerting individuals to the presence of allergens, retrieving items such as medicine or the telephone, providing physical support and assistance with balance and stability to individuals with mobility disabilities, and helping persons with psychiatric and neurological disabilities by preventing or interrupting impulsive or destructive behaviors. The crime deterrent effects of an animal´s presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition.”


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## SFGSSD

ILGHAUS said:


> _Cont. from my previous post ..._
> 
> 
> Contrary to many, a dog does not need to be trained in a mall or a grocery store to later know how to behave in such. A SD can be fully trained in locations open and available to any pet or where permission by the owner (please don't ask where the owner could later be served with a health code violation) has been given.


This is not the best course of action. A dog needs to be exposed to the environments it needs to perform in to be certain the dog can perform in those areas.
Health code violation? A restaurant in Massachusetts was worked over by our State Attorney General for leaning on that code to justify their discrimination and violations of State and Federal Law.

There are many ways to train a PTSD dog. Just make sure the dog is trained in a way you are comfortable in regards to mitigating your disability.




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## Capone22

Thank you all. I have decided not to pursue a PSD.


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## Gretchen

Just a comment on your anxiety issues, please don't be offended, but I am glad you are not pursuing a service dog for this problem with panic, etc. As hard as it may seem you should really try to work through this and be strong on your own, not rely on a service dog. Over the long term this would be more beneficial and make you feel empowered.

This is a good resource for self help, Amazon.com: The Feeling Good Handbook (9780452281325): David D. Burns: Books

I also think having a dog is an excellent resource, but not for getting you through the store, but for exercise, fresh air and working off the adrenaline and stress hormones, having something to love and loves you back unconditionally. You can still teach your dog whatever you want to help you. My daughter sometimes has balance problems and taught our dog to stand solid next to her when she needs to get up from the ground.

Good Luck getting off medication, do it slowly. If you google Dr. Peter Breggin, I believe he has good resources to help.


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## Chicagocanine

Here is a list of some possible PSD tasks: 
http://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html

(Note, some of them are mentioned as "extras" not to be used as a main task, as they technically wouldn't qualify as a trained task. They are marked as such.)


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## RubyTuesday

Some dogs essentially train themselves to do jobs that they see need doing. That might indicate that the dog is smarter, or more sensitive, it doesn't mean that s/he is any less trained.

Some yrs back a woman affected by MS was startled to discover her dog taking the initiative to support her, assist with her mobility, help her dress & retrieving items she needed or had dropped. The dog went on to assist her with household chores, shopping & banking. Woman & dog were strongly bonded & she undoubtedly asssisted the dog in learning new ways to help her, but the initiative, including an impressive skill set, came from the dog. I can't imagine refusing to recognize that dog as a service dog.

I've read similar stories where it was the dog rather than the owner who recognized a need & stepped in to take care of things. This can be a rescue or emergency situation or it can be a dog who realizes s/he is needed to assist with life's daily routines. 

FTR, I work in a hospital & I'm all too aware of people who drag around poorly behaved pets presenting them as 'service dogs'. I'm strongly opposed to those abuses. However, it seems that a dog who performs the necessary tasks to be a service dog s/b recognized as such regardless of where the training came from. The bond b/w working dog & owner can be so tight I think they can lose sight of where one starts & the other ends.


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## SFGSSD

RubyTuesday said:


> Some dogs essentially train themselves to do jobs that they see need doing. That might indicate that the dog is smarter, or more sensitive, it doesn't mean that s/he is any less trained.
> 
> Some yrs back a woman affected by MS was startled to discover her dog taking the initiative to support her, assist with her mobility, help her dress & retrieving items she needed or had dropped. The dog went on to assist her with household chores, shopping & banking. Woman & dog were strongly bonded & she undoubtedly asssisted the dog in learning new ways to help her, but the initiative, including an impressive skill set, came from the dog. I can't imagine refusing to recognize that dog as a service dog.
> 
> I've read similar stories where it was the dog rather than the owner who recognized a need & stepped in to take care of things. This can be a rescue or emergency situation or it can be a dog who realizes s/he is needed to assist with life's daily routines.
> 
> FTR, I work in a hospital & I'm all too aware of people who drag around poorly behaved pets presenting them as 'service dogs'. I'm strongly opposed to those abuses. However, it seems that a dog who performs the necessary tasks to be a service dog s/b recognized as such regardless of where the training came from. The bond b/w working dog & owner can be so tight I think they can lose sight of where one starts & the other ends.


The dog must be trained to mitigate the disability. This is the law. Tasks you mention are tasks that easily can be proofed. If the dog does it every time it is asked, it is trained to do it . But on the other hand, if the things the dog does are just isolated happenings and the dog is very inconsistent thaw dog is not trained. The language within the ADA prevents people from saying the dog is a service dog because it can do ABC and those things are not trainable tasks nor does it directly mitigate the disability ... and if it does/is doing it inconsistently and whenever the dog feels like it, is not trained.






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## RubyTuesday

Terry, I don't disagree with any of that but quite often the very best dogs have a big hand in their own training. I'm ultimately concerned with what the dog does & how well s/he performs those tasks. Proof is ultimately in performance. 

Sadly, the laws rarely prevent people from claiming their pets are service dogs if they choose to do so. I can't count the number of obnoxious, ill mannered curs masquerading as service dogs. We've had them lunge at staff & patients, growl at staff & patients, bark incessantly, get their leashes entangled in other's legs & medical equipment, bump into and trip people and sniff intrusively. The worst are asked to leave, often amid threats & recriminations, but sadly the image of real service dogs is damaged by these frauds.


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## SFGSSD

RubyTuesday said:


> Terry, I don't disagree with any of that but quite often the very best dogs have a big hand in their own training. I'm ultimately concerned with what the dog does & how well s/he performs those tasks. Proof is ultimately in performance.
> 
> The worst are asked to leave, often amid threats & recriminations, but sadly the image of real service dogs is damaged by these frauds.


I would agree with that. The proof is always in the actual performance of the dog. Some feel the dog can do things it cannot even after it is evaluated by a professional. This is a dangerous delusion and you clearly see yourself what that translates to if the handler is legitimately disabled or not.




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## Lin

RubyTuesday said:


> Some yrs back a woman affected by MS was startled to discover her dog taking the initiative to support her, assist with her mobility, help her dress & retrieving items she needed or had dropped. The dog went on to assist her with household chores, shopping & banking. Woman & dog were strongly bonded & *she undoubtedly asssisted the dog in learning new ways to help her*, but the initiative, including an impressive skill set, came from the dog. I can't imagine refusing to recognize that dog as a service dog.


Bolding is mine. If she 'assisted the dog in learning new ways to help her' that sounds like different phrasing for taught the dog additional service tasks. As long as the dog was *trained* in some service tasks, as well as obedience and public access then no one would refuse to recognize the dog as a service dog. 

If she jumped straight from the dog picking up behaviors on its own to taking the dog around as a service dog, then she would be breaking the law. Many dogs pick up helpful behaviors on their own, and many helpful behaviors/tasks are trained inadvertently. I'm sure everyone here could think of an example where they trained their dog something without intentionally setting out to do so, bad or good. 

Its very important to remember that task training is only ONE PART of the overall service dog training. Its also the easiest part. Which is why we have so many unqualified dogs pumped out by organizations. Every Joe Public and his sister things if they teach a dog to retrieve, brace, etc thats good enough to label it a mobility assistance dog. Public access and advanced obedience are much more difficult to train and what make or break the dog. My girl Emma is great at learning new tasks, does WONDERFUL in advanced obedience training, but I washed her out because she didn't meet requirements for public access. 

Tessa picked up helpful behaviors on her own, and was actually what first got me thinking about making her my service dog. I have both balance issues and joint issues that frequently cause me to fall. Tessa was always a velcro dog on steroids, and quickly she started helping me out. She would be right there and brace for me to either catch my balance, break the fall to allow me to ease myself down better, and help me get back up. But at that point she was NOT a service dog. At that point she was a service dog candidate.


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## Lin

RubyTuesday said:


> Sadly, the laws rarely prevent people from claiming their pets are service dogs if they choose to do so. I can't count the number of obnoxious, ill mannered curs masquerading as service dogs. We've had them lunge at staff & patients, growl at staff & patients, bark incessantly, get their leashes entangled in other's legs & medical equipment, bump into and trip people and sniff intrusively. The worst are asked to leave, often amid threats & recriminations, but sadly the image of real service dogs is damaged by these frauds.


The law doesn't prevent anyone from breaking it, but does allow for things to be done if its being broken. No law prevents people from breaking it. 

In all of those examples the dog should have been asked to leave. It doesn't matter if it was a legitimate well trained service dog and something happened to make it have a terrible off day, they can and should be asked to leave if they are displaying inappropriate behaviors. The law says this. Unfortunately most people do not know they can ask a SD to leave. If the individual is upset, oh well. As a responsible service dog handler if my dog was displaying any inappropriate behavior I would be leaving with the dog myself well before being asked. The worst that could happen is the individual try to sue the business, but in such a case they will have to prove their status as disabled and their dogs status as a service dog to the judge. And even after that, if the dog was displaying inappropriate behavior the business was in the right and will be safe. If the individual was faking (either intentionally or unintentionally) they will only be screwing themselves, and can be putting themselves at risk for criminal charges in some areas. 

Revised Business Brief Revised ADA Requirements: Service Animals


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## CurvyOne

*My Experience*

I apologize for not reading the entire thread. Some nights I get confused easily when too much information is thrown my way. So I will just address the OPs original questions and respond solely with my own experience. I have Complex PTSD and I would love to share my experience with you


*1. Can I have her as a PSD and also let her be involved in French Ring?*
If the french ring is a type of protection work, then no, I do not believe you can or at least its not advised. If its something like agility, then I dont see why not. I know other SDs that are also involved in nose work, agility and obedience competitions and well as show rings. 

*2. She has issues with certain surfaces.* 
Sounds to me IMO that she has the ability to overcome this with patience, practice and positive reinforcement 

*3. When trained for anxiety and panic attacks, do the dogs actually recognize the panic attack or does the handler give them a command? * Every dog is different and not all dogs are going to have the same innate abilities. Hüter is able to pick up on the slightest bit of anxiety and performs tasks to relieve the anxiety before an attack occurs. My panic attacks are much more sudden. He picks up on it very quickly before its full blown, but I still have the attack. The difference with him is that his ability to sense it quickly and help me manage it means that the panic attacks are less severe than normal and end faster. Some dogs may not be able to pick up on anxiety and may have to be trained specific tasks during an attack. IE: If handler sits on floor, immediately dog creates space between her and the general public. This is a task a dog can learn in regards to you sitting on the floor in public because of an attack, but have nothing to do with him being able to recognize anxiety. Make sense?

*4.Where do I go/who do I contact for an evaluation of her? and for future training?* I would research all local trainers advertising service dog PSD training. THen I'd look for other peoples personal experience with that trainer and talk to them a lot before training with them.

*To give you an idea of what I would like out of a PSD here is a list I have come up with so far,

*accompany me places, especially crowded places. I can get very overwhelmed and anxious in crowds. *
I also get very anxious in crowds. I tend to lose focus, become hyper-vigilant, confused, have difficulty making decisions or holding conversations etc... This has become MUCH better since having Huter. For one, just having something else to focus on it good. Secondly, he recognizes when my anxiety increases and will to things to help keep me grounded and focused and calm. He frequently will just reach up and gently hold my hand with his mouth. He bumps me to get my attention. Blocks me from moving forward, faces me and looks in my eyes to ground me. He will take my hand and lead me somewhere away from the crowd or to a place to sit down. He creates space between me and the public among many other tools to help keep me grounded. 


**I have fainted/passed out before from a panic attack. which is one of my biggest fears because I have children. I would like her to be trained to try and wake me up if that happens, ie: licking/barking/pawing at me. If at home I would like her to be able to call 911 if it happens, because my kids could be in danger if she could not get me to wake up quickly. 
* Those two things can absolutely be trained, you'll want to find a local trainer experienced in this to help you. But most dogs will be able to do this for you. 


**When I start getting anxious, distract me to try and snap me out of it or stop it from progressing. *
As I mentioned earlier, Hüter does this for me. 

Huter also does other things for me as far as my PTSD and general anxiety. He scans the environment for me and alerts me to anything that might be a trigger if I am surprised by it. He will alert and keep me from entering a situation that he's learned causes attacks in me. He will sit me down and perform Deep Pressure Therapy to calm me if I'm having or beginning an attack. He remains happy and relaxed always as to help calm me and not escalate my own fears. 
My husband is away a lot and when he is gone, Huter sleeps outside of his crate near me so that feel safer. He also wakes me up from night terrors and pulls me out of them. (something my husband would normally do if home) He wakes me up if my alarm goes off and I dont hear it. He alerts me if my phone goes off and I'm not grounded and do not hear it. He checks on me in the shower to make sure I'm not turning the water too hot and will faint. He frequently rests his paw on me just to keep me grounded in public. He provides frequent eye contact for the same reason. If I'm struggling and do not look back, he paws at me and makes a fuss until I look right back into his eye. 

His face is the most loving and caring face ever. He can calm me and bring back to the present so fast. Having him has made SUCH a difference in my happiness. I had dinner with my sister the other day and she hasnt seen me in over a year (I left town to go to stanford clinics in cali) and she said that I seemed so much more relaxed and happy. Huter has allowed me to actually seek out friends and do activites. NOrmally being with friends would stress me, drain me and I'd lose friends because I never wanted to go see them. I'd always be cancelling. No I run a doggie hiking group and a support group for chronic illnesses in the area. I never cancel any of my doctors appointments because I can bring him. He's still in training technically so some of these tasks he's still fine tuning. BUt if you are considering a dog....please hear me when I say its been AMAZING. Best decision for my health.


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