# Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD breed?



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I have trouble understanding it. Why is there such a big rift between different "types" of German Shepherd and the people who prefer one type over another? Why do people feel the need to put down or disparage other "types" or varieties of German Shepherd?

I mean a German Shepherd is a German Shepherd, right? If someone loves the breed why must they insult or alienate large segments of the breed's owners?

I was thinking about this after reading some posts on an 'all-breed' dog forum I visit, where people who own German Shepherds themselves have said bad things about "American" dogs; about "show" dogs (including German); or about dogs with any "slope" saying they have overly long back legs, they look ugly/weird, or they have hip problems; or saying dogs which are not the "old fashioned" or "original dogs are no good... I've seen people put down West German dogs, saying they are not good working dogs or can't do proper bite work, and so on...

I understand that some people have a preference for a specific "type" of GSD or certain lines, but does that mean they have to put down dogs who are not of the type they like best?









I think it is sad when a person can't find solidarity with others who own "their" breed.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Because different people want different things from the breed, and each group is 150% convinced that theirs is the ONLY TRUE German Shepherd... that anyone who wants something different is doing a disservice to the breed. 

It's not just the GSD though... MANY breeds have Field version and show versions and never the twain shall meet. Labs, setters, Cockers and many of the sporting breeds have this. Add to that the strict breeding rules of the SV, and the absolute absence of rules in the AKC and it adds yet another dimension. 

Temperament in GSD's is another breaking point. They range from the "Golden Retriever" variety of many in the US, to the almost Malinois intensity of some of the working lines. Not everyone can handle an intense driven GSD, but still like the looks and the loyalty and trainablity of the less intense dog. The folks breeding for trialing in Schutzhund say they should get a different breed then... But the reality is that both extremes are GSD's, and both owners love what they have in their dog.

I've gotten some real flack at times for recommending that new GSD owners might not want a working line dog... They're great for me, but I do train dogs... but most of the people that I've had in local obedience classes wouldn't know what to do to correct certain behaviors.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What do people mean by put down lines? I seldom see that occuring?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't think people necessarily put down the lines, per say, but rather what the lines have become. The "original" West German Show Line was a far cry from what it is today in the realm of politics within the dog show world. 

I think people get more irritated at the fact that in certain circles people are taking GSD's with weak confirmation, nerves, etc and essentially throwing titles at them (as shown in the Sieger bite-work videos). Fine if that's the niche you're breeding, but don't allow them to get titled and pretend they can do the same bite work as a working line dog when it's plain shoddy work. 

It's the PRETENDING of one line that seems to rile most people...not so much what the line is SUPPOSED to be. You look at photos of show-line dogs from 50 years ago and they look quite different to me (who has no experience in Sch or showing dogs), so I can see where people are coming from.

And at least from what I've seen on this board, people may have a preference and talk about certain things that upset them, but have a respect for people who have show lines with dogs capable of doing really good "work". Lies is the person that comes to mind first and foremost about this. Nikon is a showline dog, and no one seems to think badly about him or his capabilities. But Nikon also isn't some weak-nerved, extreme angled dog who can't do much more than trot around a ring.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Quite honestly there are "rifts" in other breeds as well. Two I can think of off the top of my head are Border Collies and Huskies. Both have "working" and "show" types that are very different, perhaps even more different that GSD in structure/temperament between the sides.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

and chows. and all the Retrievers. and basically any working/field type breed vs the show equivalent. field people breed dogs that they think have the best working ability and looks are secondary. show people breed for what will win in the ring and don't care if a Lab wouldn't know a duck if it smacked in in the head.


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## Prinzsalpha (Jul 6, 2005)

I think it comes down to preference in having a Show line gsd or a Working line gsd. Showline peeps take their conformation very seriously while working line peeps take their achievement very seriously. In my opinion 2 very different type of dogs in looks and personality.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDElsaI don't think people necessarily put down the lines, per say, but rather what the lines have become. The "original" West German Show Line was a far cry from what it is today in the realm of politics within the dog show world.
> 
> I think people get more irritated at the fact that in certain circles people are taking GSD's with weak confirmation, nerves, etc and essentially throwing titles at them (as shown in the Sieger bite-work videos). Fine if that's the niche you're breeding, but don't allow them to get titled and pretend they can do the same bite work as a working line dog when it's plain shoddy work.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks!









Nikon sure is not without his own quirks and faults, no dog is perfect or faultless and I have no problem saying that of my own dogs. I simply do what I do because I like doing it. I'm not out to "prove" that show lines are as good as working lines (not saying you were saying that...but I feel like a lot of people have this attitude and my attitude is just....I like training my dogs!). There are plenty of people out there working great show line dogs, but never get any exposure because they are too busy working their dogs to heavily campaign them in the show ring, or aren't from the huge show kennels that have all the political sway in the show ring. For me, showing my dog is more of a social event. It gives me opportunities to travel - with dogs - meet new people, get out in the fresh air, shop vendors, and keeps my dog in good condition. It's sort of like going to a football game and tailgating - maybe some people are really obsessed with who wins the game but a lot of people are just there to hang out and have a good time.

I think some show line people (both German and American) are just blind. I'm not sure why or how, but they really think that doing "bitework" where the dog is falling off the sleeve and takings three commands to out is good, or that a rally obedience title means the dog "works". I think in a lot of cases it's a combination of already having a bias for one type, and being ignorant - not having any real exposure to _good working dogs _(whatever line or type...not really my point here). I see it even among people who couldn't care less about lines or type. They describe their pet as having "sound temperament" or being "high drive" without even really understanding what those things mean. And at times I put myself in that category, I am hesistant to use terms like that on my own dogs because I personally do not believe that *I* am the best person to evaluate my dogs as far as their temperament, drives, or conformation. I can't say "oh my show line dog is as good as working lines" because how would I know? All I know is that he exceeds *my* expectations, and that our club is open to visitors so anyone who needs to know how our dogs work is welcome to come see for themselves. Likely what you would see is a young, eager dog following the lead of some idiot handler making a mistake every 10 seconds.
















Lucky for me, I don't breed dogs, just train, show and compete. Pedigree and genetics are less important to me; I have the luxury of only really caring about the dog in front of me and how s/he performs because I have no intentions of breeding that dog. So, I've never felt at odds owning both types of dogs, and likely will always own one or more of each type. I simply pick whatever dog is best for me and my lifestyle at that time.

As far as showing my showline dog, I'll just say that when people are inconsistent or dishonest about things, it upsets me because I think it undermines the entire system. I would rather have honest, consistent judging even if it knocks my own dog back a few places or a rating. I say this based on a specific incident that happened to me personally recently, not just from observation of YouTube videos.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Dainerraand chows. and all the Retrievers. and basically any working/field type breed vs the show equivalent. field people breed dogs that they think have the best working ability and looks are secondary. show people breed for what will win in the ring and don't care if a Lab wouldn't know a duck if it smacked in in the head.


I saw a field lab for the first time last week and WOW that was an eye opener. The dog has drive, work ethics, and focus coming out of its ears and it looks nothing like the labs I see in my neighborhood. In fact it looked so different that at first I thought the guy got this dog from the pound! Later he told me I am not the first person who made that mistake.

Talk about a split between show and working!


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I have seen the rift and read about it too, I just think it is dumb!
I don't understand why some people get so worked up. 

Who cares, everyone has what they like and do your thing and enjoy.

My Bella is AS and my Bo is East German. Both different shapes/body/head but both wonderful smart and loving dogs. Both healthy so far no tummy issues, just pano on Bo but Bella never had Pano.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I recently went to a training club here to observe an advanced obedience class and seeing a long back and severly angled GSD was depressing! 

Obviously, they still need homes and we never see our own dogs as anything but perfect!
















As for those promoting the breeding ensuring continuing of that body structure, I have a problem with, because I think it is not humane.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Myoung
> I think it comes down to preference in having a Show line gsd or a Working line gsd. Showline peeps take their conformation very seriously while working line peeps take their achievement very seriously. In my opinion 2 very different type of dogs in looks and personality.


I think one issue with me at least, is that once upon a time there were not 2 very different type of dogs in the German shepherd. One dog had the looks and mentality to be both. But power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and the great divide began when those in charge started making changes in the standards and judging. And the great divide is still alive and effectively wedging its way to insure the complete decline of a once noble and versitle breed that was found in a single dog. JMO


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqQuite honestly there are "rifts" in other breeds as well. Two I can think of off the top of my head are Border Collies and Huskies. Both have "working" and "show" types that are very different, perhaps even more different that GSD in structure/temperament between the sides.


True, but I had a Golden Retriever for 11 years, I frequented dog forums/newsgroups/etc for all that time and I never really saw Golden owners disparaging one "type" of Golden vs. another to the extent I see with German Shepherds. Yes people preferred one type of Golden over another, and I saw a few people complain that the show Goldens could not do the work the dogs were bred for but it was not as intense or seeming like they hated the other "type" the few times I did see that, not anywhere near the extent that people put down the different types of GSD. I never had anyone insult my dog because she was a red "field" type Golden.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Most people I know, myself included, do not have a preference for certain lines. Many people do have a preference for the German Shepherd Dog and when they see a degradation in the abilities and the things that made the breed great, they mention it. I can't help that these things appear to occur more in some lines rather than others, I wish it didn't......but unfortunately, it does. 

The very fact that we have lines indicates that there are different characteristics associated with those lines..... that is the very definition of lines. Therefore, generalizations can be made. 

I believe that the dogs we love today owe their appeal to the breeds initial working foundation and purpose. I don't think it is the other way around. What we love about these dogs today does not come from concentrating on conformation over working drives and temperament. The breed we love today does not owe its legacy to breeding "pet appropriate" German Shepherds.

I have had dogs from many lines and I loved them. I soon saw that what was most appealing about them came from the breeds original purpose still shining through to some degree. 

For heaven's sakes, people don't hate lines or dogs. They love these dogs and once a broad understanding of the breed is obtained, you should not at all be surprised that many will object to degradation of the breeds highest potential in all areas of the dog's make up.

This breed is one of the most versatile, awesome breeds in the world. Of course, people are passionate about its preservation. 

I once was at a show with an intelligent educated fellow who had devoted great monies and effort to showing his dogs. When he saw another line of dog, he quickly made the assessment... it is obvious that our lines are so far apart in abilities and temperament that it might be time to declare them seperate breeds. Very perceptive fellow. Now, he didn't squall about his passion, his devotion, his heart's dedication to the dogs in his kennel. He made an honest, intelligent, unbiased observation. We need more of this. He did not take offense that I would say his dog's weren't built for such and such, that his dogs lacked working drives. He was intellectually honest about the situation. He also was very clear about what lines he thought would be the "resource genetics" in the end.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

and the rift between BC"s and JRT's or Parson's Terriers among the many listed already. 

and it is the "pretending" as somebody put it, that irritates me the most.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I don't "hate" any line of GSD, less to say those who I don't even now in person, you can't hate a dog! but I feel very different towards the _people_ breeding one line of dog over the other, their goals and their mindset.

To be honest, I never imagined myself owning a GSD before I met the working lines and all I knew where showlines. To the day 99,9% of people don't know that working lines even exist. I sometimes feel my dog is so different than show lines that when asked what breed she is I answer "a Working Shepherd". That leaves people happy and saves me an hour of explanations about lines and GSD history.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>Just 'history repeating itself' -</span> read on:



> Quote: In Europe during the 1800s, attempts were being made to standardize breeds.[5] The dogs were bred to preserve traits that assisted in their job of herding sheep and protecting flocks from predators. In Germany this was practiced within local communities, where shepherds selected and bred dogs that they believed had traits necessary for herding sheep, such as intelligence, strength, and keen senses of smell. The results were dogs that were able to perform admirably in their task, but that differed significantly, both in appearance and ability, from one locality to another.[5]
> 
> To combat these differences, the <span style="color: #33CC00">Phylax Society was formed in 1891 with the intention of creating standardised dog breeds in Germany. The society disbanded after only three years due to an ongoing, internal conflict regarding the traits that the society should promote; some members believed dogs should be bred solely for working purposes, while others believed dogs should be bred also for appearance.</span>[6] While unsuccessful in their goal, the Phylax Society had inspired people to pursue standardising dog breeds independently.


<span style='font-size: 11pt'>Then, along came Capt. Max von Stephanitz and his ideals for a dog.

I think what most people who have GSDs object to is trying to morph this most versatile of breeds into a dog for everyone.

I think problems arise in many breeds when people focus on appearance above temperament, utility (or lack thereof), or health.

Retrievers were bred to retrieve, shepherds to work, just as King Charles spaniels are meant to be companionable lap dogs.
</span>


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## Kjones33 (May 5, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Dainerraand chows. and all the Retrievers. and basically any working/field type breed vs the show equivalent. field people breed dogs that they think have the best working ability and looks are secondary. show people breed for what will win in the ring and don't care if a Lab wouldn't know a duck if it smacked in in the head.
> ...



Yes, there is a definite split in looks and comformation with the Labs. Just visit the Lab boards and the debates are endless.
I have always owned W. German Working GSD's, and recently purchased my first "other" breed - A field bred lab that was purchased specifically to run the hunt tests with.
Although, he is softer than my GSD's, his drive and natural ability that he was bred for is astonishing. Beautiful dog to watch work, with his natural retrieve and hunt drives, and his water entry is awesome - He goes off to the trainers this month for his 1st 4mo stint for his training program with his trainer/breeder.
A lot of the showbred Labs that I have watched work completely lack the enthusiasm, drive, and LOVE of the game than their working counterparts. And they are built like Rotts, and have very low stamina to get the job done, even if they happen to have any drive.
Here is my streamlines 6mo. pup, Logan. I happen to find the field lines to be beautiful...No fat and all muscle!
Do you guys think that he looks different than most labs you see around?








<a href="http://s717.photobucket.com/albums/ww176/Kim525/?action=view&current=DSC_1281.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww176/Kim525/DSC_1281.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I don't have a complaint or hostility with other 'types' of GSDs. Personally I don't like show lines becuase I had 2 showline dogs and while they were gorgeous, they were too high strung, too hyper and neither of them could settle in the house.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to have one. I will say it's REALLY ANNOYING when the breeders of overangulated show lines try to argue that their dogs are better.

It upsets me to see an overly angulated american showline dog when they get older and are dragging those back legs. Used to be a gorgeous male a few blocks down, when he was 6, I thought he was 12 becuase of how he walked.

Did I ever say to the people there was something wrong with them having bought an ambred? Of course not. 

Did I gush over how gorgeous he was? Of course I did.

I like what I like - DDRs & west german working. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I like diet pepsi, my friend likes diet coke. We don't argue about which one is better.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

hunterjumper,

Gorgeous dog! The lab I saw looked just like yours. I guess the face is labby but the body is nothing like the labs I know. Very lean and muscular and leggy. Usually I don't think of power when I think of lab but everything about the dog screamed power.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Actually, we end up seeing field labs all the time. He looks normal in my world. I don't recognize the breed in its other incarnations almost.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineTrue, but I had a Golden Retriever for 11 years, I frequented dog forums/newsgroups/etc for all that time and I never really saw Golden owners disparaging one "type" of Golden vs. another to the extent I see with German Shepherds. Yes people preferred one type of Golden over another, and I saw a few people complain that the show Goldens could not do the work the dogs were bred for but it was not as intense or seeming like they hated the other "type" the few times I did see that, not anywhere near the extent that people put down the different types of GSD. I never had anyone insult my dog because she was a red "field" type Golden.


But doesn't it drive the field type golden people batty when the public think Goldens are nothing more than mellow blonde teddy bears?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaActually, we end up seeing field labs all the time. He looks normal in my world. I don't recognize the breed in its other incarnations almost.


The legginess is what threw me off. Most labs I know are kind of squatty. Rolly jolly little pigs with big heads ...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: AmaruqQuite honestly there are "rifts" in other breeds as well.


very true. but i think german shepherds are the only breed with _so many_ varieties. as we all know it goes well beyond showline vs working line. and from what i've noticed is that each variety gets stereo typed and some people tend to frown upon dogs other than the type that they favor because of the 'reputation' it gives the breed to the millions of people out there who don't know about german shepherds and the different lines.

i can't even begin to tell you how many times comments are made about my dogs not being as high strung and nervous as "most german shepherds" or not having the sloping back like "every other german shepherds" or that they're friendly unlike "those german shepherds you see attacking the man in the suit".

bottom line is - too extreme of ANYTHING is no good imo.

edit: for some reason this isn't reading exactly the way it makes sense in my mind... so i just wanted to clarify that this is _one_ reason/view/scenario.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I'm curious - what would you guys consider too extreme in a working line GSD, instances where the working line breeding has done too far - either in appearance or in temperament?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> 
> But doesn't it drive the field type golden people batty when the public think Goldens are nothing more than mellow blonde teddy bears?


Perhaps, but that is what the public sees most often, the blonde show-type Goldens and I think the general public probably doesn't even know there is anything else! I have no problem with the blonde show dogs myself, I just prefer the more slender-built, more active red dogs. If I had come upon the show type first who knows, I may have ended up preferring them. My Golden was an unplanned rescue so she was my introduction to owning the breed.

Personally the only thing that really drove me batty is after the five thousandth time someone asked me "Is that an Irish Setter?" (or worse, pointed out the "Irish Setter" to other people they were with matter-of-factly rather than asking me, because they were so sure...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Jason LinI'm curious - what would you guys consider too extreme in a working line GSD, instances where the working line breeding has done too far - either in appearance or in temperament?


i was thinking in terms of temperament. dogs with no "off" switch.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderi was thinking in terms of temperament. dogs with no "off" switch.


Me too. I've debated it before - my DDR boys were both able to shut it down inside when I told them too. I've heard from others that their DDRs were too intense and unable to settle inside. Although I'm not entirely sure that is not a nature vs nurture debate.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I have met dogs with no off switch from all lines. Some of them had workable drives and others just a busyness that wouldn't end. In these cases, the dogs were not exercised or worked with enough and did not have early learning as to expectations.

I don't know of any good breeders who are breeding for faulty nerve that would result in a dog who can not settle. 

I have known some strong dogs who many people would say are too much. Of course, these dogs belong with skilled handlers. I am thankful for these breeders and handlers or else we will no longer have a GSD who can serve and protect the community in law enforcement. I guess we could lobby that the breed not aspire to this function as the dogs in the breeding program might be judged by some as being extreme. 

Extremity of drive...please, please provide me with it. I love those drivey Malinois and Border Collies too. I am hoping no one is looking into their extremity of working ability as a possible fault.

Now what other extremity might a working dog breeder make the mistake of breeding? ...an extremely nervy dog-that will soon be recognized as unworkable, an extremely aggressive dog--that will soon be recognized as unworkable....

It is amazing how the term "work" precludes the breeding of problem extremities for more than a very short time...because the dogs simply would not "work".


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaNow what other extremity might a working dog breeder make the mistake of breeding? ...an extremely nervy dog-that will soon be recognized as unworkable, an extremely aggressive dog--that will soon be recognized as unworkable....


but no good breeder on either side purposely breeds for poor nerves or dog aggression. but show lines _do_ focus on conformation and working lines _do_ focus on drive. so personally (let me preface by saying i neither show or work my dogs) i believe that there can be extremes on both of those sides. whether there is a place for it or not is to be debated. someone who shows dogs might think that an extreme drive is unreasonably extreme... just as someone who is serious about working dogs might see the extremes in conformation just as ridiculous. i hope that made sense. again, i'm just providing a possible explanation as to why the 'rift' exists. i've got a working line and a show line... both are moderate for their type. although over the years i have developed somewhat of a preference - i still have respect for the amount of passion both sides possess.

in regards to extreme drive // off switch - the nurture vs nature that SunCzarina brought up is a good point and i'd be interested to hear others opinions.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

If Schutzhund is the preferred "test" for whether a dog has working ability, does that mean that unless you have Schutzhund titles your dog is not a good example of the breed? What if you just don't want to do Schutzhund? How about if your dog comes from lines of dogs with advanced Sch titles but is not suited for it themselves-- does that mean they are not a good GSD?
What about these "weak" Sieger dogs people are discussing-- if they can get titles in Schutzhund then doesn't that mean that Sch is not a true test of working ability? If dogs with advanced Sch titles are not "working dogs" how do you tell whether a dog "works"?

If you have a dog who all the dogs in their pedigree have SchIII etc titles, but they are said to be from "show lines" does that mean they are not considered to be dogs who can "work"? What about if your dog is a herding dog but does not do Schutzhund, are they not considered working dogs because they don't do protection? Why isn't herding considered a test of working ability?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Umm, no.

Don't know of and military or law enforcement K9s who're active in schutzhund clubs, or guide dogs etc... but they are definitely working dogs!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The test of temperament in the show ring AKC, the dog passes if it does not try to bite, flee or cower. Some pretty nervy dogs do well in conformation because this weakness is not disqualifying. 

To what working does extremity in the show ring apply??

I myself have said nothing about schutzhund.

Titles in a pedigree do not influence me as to the dogs ability to withstand the pressures that are presented in real work. The dog itself must present these characteristics. You will find characteristics run in "lines".... that being the very definition of lines.

Where in the world is is written that herding is NOT considered a working title? I have never heard of this before. I know many recognize the HGH as such. But of course that title or any other does not cause a person to "hire" the dog for work.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Why would conformation ever be an end in itself? Why would it not be recognized as the vehicle it is....the proper conformation needed to power the dog for years in its work performance. It is a dead end and of no particular purpose if it is not tied directly to the dog's real world performance. No one ever answers me this question. But plenty would ask me "why the rift"?, 

Why don't working dogs look like conformation dogs? Is it because breeders simply can not recognize and breed for conformation that serves a working purpose? Doesn't that seem very unlikely? I just will never be able to hold in high esteem, breeding for conformation that serves only a function in a particular and often peculiar oval ring. This is a very narrow breeding goal indeed for the greatest, noblest working breed in the world. 

I guess some people will never realize the dangers of breeding dogs for their particular interest, their egoic activity, what suits them best. They just do not seem realize the potential effect on the breed. Are you working to preserve working abilities in your dogs? How do you prove your success? If someone can not tell me about that....then they have ceased breeding the breed according to its noble past. A past that has provided them with their lovely dogs to play with in their niche. 

I often find people take their pets very personally. This is not good for breeding decisions. It doesn't mean one shouldn't love their dog. I have trained, loved and had a lot of fun with dogs who were weak in many areas. Were they bred? Definitely not! Did I have anything to say other than, yep, when someone pointed out the weaknesses.Was it a slam on the loverly dogs and their lines....no, just that intellectual honesty thing again.

It is so important in the understanding of a dogs nature and abilities to work with it in pressure situations, to learn its limitations and to acknowledge them. That is what real life work will do. Working a dog for tests and titles can give you more information too. The title on the paper doesn't give the information...the experience of actually working a dog under pressure does. It is a most interesting and fascinating time. I recommend it to anyone who loves what this breed is. Unfortunately, too few participate. Thankfully, some do.

Spend several months herding large flocks of sheep or attempting to get your dog ready for a schutzhund title or police service or blind leadership. Take your dog and work with someone who supplies working canines. There will be very interesting things to talk about after that. It will then become much better than wondering why people are this way or that way about lines.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I guess I just don't get why people have to disparage other types of GSD than the type they favor... Why the need to say bad things about them, that they are "crippled" or that show line dogs "can't work" or whatever type are not real German Shepherds, or that West German dogs don't bite properly, or German show lines are overly sloped and ugly, or any of the many other things.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Sometimes, I think it's ignorance. People just don't know what they're seeing. No, that's not always the case as there are some very knowledgeable people who are adamant against a certain 'flavor' of GSD. 

It doesn't bother me as much if they have a valid reason. I prefer working line shepherds because I want an active dog who I can compete with. I also prefer their look. Could I get what I want in a showline dog? Probably. But it might be harder for me to find.

I think the major issue is in what the different flavors focus on. The GSD is an all-around dog. Jack of all trades, master of none. Focus too much on looks and you can lose working ability. Focus too much on working ability and you can create a dog without the ability to live calmly in a home. Extremes are never the ideal, imho.

I don't think GSD owners/breeders/fanciers/whatever are the only ones who are pretty vocal about what they do and don't like in their breed. I was on a (working) Border collie board for a while and they were pretty anti-showdogs. Or Barbie collies as they liked to call them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineIf Schutzhund is the preferred "test" for whether a dog has working ability, does that mean that unless you have Schutzhund titles your dog is not a good example of the breed? What if you just don't want to do Schutzhund? How about if your dog comes from lines of dogs with advanced Sch titles but is not suited for it themselves-- does that mean they are not a good GSD?
> What about these "weak" Sieger dogs people are discussing-- if they can get titles in Schutzhund then doesn't that mean that Sch is not a true test of working ability? If dogs with advanced Sch titles are not "working dogs" how do you tell whether a dog "works"?
> 
> If you have a dog who all the dogs in their pedigree have SchIII etc titles, but they are said to be from "show lines" does that mean they are not considered to be dogs who can "work"? What about if your dog is a herding dog but does not do Schutzhund, are they not considered working dogs because they don't do protection? Why isn't herding considered a test of working ability?


IMO there is no perfect, all-in-one breed test. However, I do believe there is a spectrum. I do a lot of things with my dogs, including dock diving, herding, agility, obedience, rally, Schutzhund, and therapy, and plan to also try weight pull and flyball with Nikon. I honestly cannot sit here and say that rally obedience is anywhere NEAR as demanding or as telling as even the BH-level in Schutzhund. So in my opinion, there are certain titles that just don't tell me enough about the dog, especially about the dog's temperament and drive. They might have it or they might not, but nervy dogs with low drive (relative to a good working GSD) can title and place at the highest levels of agility, rally, and obedience. Kenya has lots of blue ribbons and titles but is not a dog that embodies the soundness that a GSD should have.

Schutzhund is not perfect and for most people I think it is more of a sport than true work, but it does present many challenges that really cannot be simulated in any other venue of titling a dog.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI guess I just don't get why people have to disparage other types of GSD than the type they favor... Why the need to say bad things about them, that they are "crippled" or that show line dogs "can't work" or whatever type are not real German Shepherds, or that West German dogs don't bite properly, or German show lines are overly sloped and ugly, or any of the many other things.


the same reason people judge other people... create jokes... mock... stereotype... and profile. you can call it limited/lack of experience, ignorance, a closed mind, immaturity, negativity, peer pressure, and the list goes on.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Maybe we can get gun shots added to Rally! That would be fun.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaMaybe we can get gun shots added to Rally! That would be fun.


lol, and disqualify Tilden now


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Ok, maybe not then!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

The website of my local SchH club has a glossary section and one of terms defined is a "Sheperois" : "(Pronounced 'Sheperwa') A German Shepherd which acts like a malinois." I haven't been with the club long enough to know if it's a good thing or a bad thing (though I think it's probably not a compliment). Would a sheperois be considered a faulty product of working line GSD breeding I wonder? ...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Well, I don't know but I think I'd prefer to deal with their Sheperois rather than a Crappen Woppen!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SambaMaybe we can get gun shots added to Rally! That would be fun.


Our SchH club meets on private property and the owners of the property also own an all-breed sort of dog club. A few weeks ago they were having an agility trial in their outdoor ring. The SchH field is back aways (dedicated to SchH, permanent blinds and such) and I'd asked someone to fire blanks during Nikon's obedience. These people came over from the agility trial an were irate because we dared to fire the gun during our training! They insisted it would scare their dog and cause them to fall. Nevermind that the same people insist agility is a breedworthiness test for temperament and drive, or that the teeter comes crashing down ten times louder than a few blank shots a quarter mile away....

I enjoy rally a lot and it presents some challenges that SchH does not, mainly the ring being very small/tight, so many people and dogs *right* there, often being indoors in cramped buildings, unlike SchH where you have half a football sized field to yourself with just one other dog on a long down a gazillion yards away. But I know from doing both that rally just doesn't test the *German Shepherd* the same way that some other sports do. I can do rally w/ my SchH dog with a little more desensitization and polish (and I plan to), but there's no way I can go any farther in SchH w/ my rally dog.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaWell, I don't know but I think I'd prefer to deal with their Sheperois rather than a Crappen Woppen!!


"Crappen Woppen: An affectionate term for a dog which is a little work-challenged. A 1-1 linebred Crappen Woppen is VERY work-challenged."

There were a lot of Crappen Woppen at Sieger this year from the looks of it. Got to be careful with those 1-1 linebreeding, man ...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Dottie's agility instructor told me a similar story last week about this dog that was running the tunnel one day and just then a car nearby backfired. The dog was so traumatized by the noise that it wouldn't even go near the tunnel for 6 months! But then again it was a sheltie ...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SambaWell, I don't know but I think I'd prefer to deal with their Sheperois rather than a Crappen Woppen!!
> ...


lol, thanks for this Jason - i won't say what i thought it meant


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineI guess I just don't get why people have to disparage other types of GSD than the type they favor... Why the need to say bad things about them, that they are "crippled" or that show line dogs "can't work" or whatever type are not real German Shepherds, or that West German dogs don't bite properly, or German show lines are overly sloped and ugly, or any of the many other things.


Some of them are opinions and everyone is entitled to have one. If I say showlines are overly sloped and ugly it is my opinion and you can or cannot agree with it. I honestly think that the Dutch Shepherd is one of the most beautiful breeds and I know that 99% of people will disagree with me. It doesn't hurt my feelings nor my desire of owning one in the future.

Others are experience. If you take a showline dog at random, and a working line dog at random the probability that the second has better aptitudes for the work, or a better bite than the first is bigger. If you repeat the same experiment once and again over six hundreds of dogs you'll reach to the conclusion that there is a tendency towards working lines to be better for work and to have best bites than showlines. You can't feel offended by maths.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I know many will disagree with this, but , I prefer dogs that are "pet lines" or whatever you call them because i do not want either extreme. I think Am and G showlines are beautiful and stylish, but do not like the overangulation and low hips. I LOVE many qualities of the working lines, esp. DDR types, but am very intimidated about having a crazy hyper dog with no off switch. I know pet types are often viewed by both sides as watered down and not real GSDs, but they are great for many people as pets. 
Titles and papers aren't important to me,just want a great dog that is up for a hike, but can chill at home too. Labs are NOT for me either! 
Not saying I would never own either type, they are all great, but I would not seek out either type for my own pet situation. If I came across one that was just a good fit to my family it relly wouldn't matter what lines it was from! If I decided to really get into training some day in the (far off) future, I would definately look into working lines. But for now, my pet quality pups are awesome and perfect for us.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

...even "pet lines" have to come from somewhere








and i don't question the dogs, i question the breeders... their goals and their breeding program. if you're just breeding healthy, friendly, black and tan dogs with erect ears with no other guidelines - eventually you'll 'lose' the breed.

every pup in a working line litter isn't going to have the amount of drive necessary to work and every show line dog isnt going to be suitable for the show ring. this is where i think 'pets' should come from.

as i mentioned earlier - i have a dog from two different lines... neither of them show or work... they're just as 'go for a hike or chill at home' as they come.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Quote: but show lines do focus on conformation and working lines do focus on drive.


The good working breeders that I know do not focus on drive. Drive is part of the package, but just one component needed in a working dog. Most focus on nerves, temperament, soundness, health, correct structure that isn't extreme (more on that in a minute) plus drives and other things. 

Extremes in conformation are needed in the show ring. They take away from the dogs ability to work. Overly large over angulated dogs lack endurance, athleticism, agility and thus versatility. 

I often tell my friend Marcia, whom I help teach KPT classes with, that I hate this breed. We see sooooooooooo many GSD with weak nerves that it is a wonder the GSD is still the most popular breed in the world. I have people tell me that if they knew GSD could look and act like my dogs they would actually have considered owning one. When GSD with good nerves, strong work ethics and no extremes in structure are that rare, this is what makes me angry.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: lhczth
> 
> 
> > Quote: but show lines do focus on conformation and working lines do focus on drive.
> ...


thanks for clarifying//elaborating. i did not mean conformation or drives alone... was just sticking to those two examples.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Quote: Would a sheperois be considered a faulty product of working line GSD breeding I wonder? ...


IMO, yes. The GSD is NOT supposed to be a Malinois. I can appreciate the Mal for what they are, but if you want a Mal, get a Mal.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Oh thosre agility folks would not like Missouri. There will soon be gunfire all around! Run, Bambi, run!!!!!

Many of the Shelties I have seen in recent years are pretty iffy. My friend has one that makes me want a darn Sheltie! He is drivey, super social and intrepid. We haven't subjected him to gunfire yet....... That will happen in November through no choice of our own.

I understand that folks don't want a GSD to be like a Mailinois, but there are so many "interesting" lines and incarnations of the GSD now, why not one more?. Surely we can all get along no matter how much someone alters the breed!?! There's always room for one more line and type it seems!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Working breeders focus on drive? Well I am sure they don't want to breed a no drive dog. That is a misery to own when there are drugs to find or sheep to round up. 

But that "work" thing again gets in the way of focusing on extreme drive. If you try to breed for big drive you will likely loose balance in an area of the dog's make up needed for working ability. A breeder who breeds me a nicely conformed dog with balanced temperament and balanced drives.....amazing job, I say!! 

There is no need to breed for pets. Properly balanced breeding will produce plenty of pets. I have a friend who shows dogs...funny, the "pet" is his working titled dog! He LOVES him because he makes such an awesome pet. Go figure.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai
> Others are experience. If you take a showline dog at random, and a working line dog at random the probability that the second has better aptitudes for the work, or a better bite than the first is bigger. If you repeat the same experiment once and again over six hundreds of dogs you'll reach to the conclusion that there is a tendency towards working lines to be better for work and to have best bites than showlines. You can't feel offended by maths.


Not offended by math, but by being told that my dog cannot do any work because she is from German show lines. So this means her parents/grandparents/etc were not "working" when they got SchIII titles, and her grandparents were not actually "working" when they were crisis response dogs at the WTC or became Universal Sieger etc...?
If that is true than what is the actual definition of doing "work"? Are only police dogs and herding dogs actually doing work because what they do is really a full-time job?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Schutzhund titles don't necessarily mean alot. I have seen some earning titles that I wouldn't put in my car. Whether your dog can work or not, depends entirely upon your particular dog. I never had anyone tell me my dog of such and such line couldn't work. But we went on our adventures and I learned her strengths and weaknesses. I learned a lot and all my dogs tended to work about like you would expect from the math of their particular lines. Some stand out above the average and some fall below their peers, no matter what type. 

I never cared much if someone said something about my dog. Why would I care and she doesn't speak English, German, whatever? The most important thing is to see your dog under pressure. Schutzhund can show you, herding large flocks in tough situations can reveal things. Someone is saying something all the time, its no big deal really. My dogs never needed defending.

If you aren't willing to do things that will pressure the dog and test them, then you will never know and its a mute point.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I'm with you Chicago. I don't get it. I understand a personal preference for one or the other. But why the disdain for the other. Senseless. 
And unless it's been proven that my dog can't work, I don't buy it. 

.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> And unless it's been proven that my dog can't work, I don't buy it.


I prefer to think that unless it's been proven that my dog can work, I don't buy it. It is healthier for the breed.

It hasn't been proven I can't fly, but so far I've never launched myself from a cliff.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I had no idea what "being able to work" meant until I got involved with working dogs. It sure shows you a side of temperament and drive and willingness to perform in a dog that you just cannot imagine unless you have hands-on experience with it. 

That is why people who want to preserve the working ability of the GSD actually work their dogs so they can see if those traits are there or not. 

One just cannot determine such a thing without it. 

doggydog, your dog may well be able to work. But there is no real way of knowing unless he is put to the test. And when people say things like:
"And unless it's been proven that my dog can't work, I don't buy it."
and say their dogs CAN work without knowing WHAT it takes to have working temperament, and then go ahead and breed their dogs and tout them as working dogs based on the "it hasn't been provent that they can't work" mentality, well, then you can see how the essense of the working dog gets lost over generations and the rift grows . . .

Now, nobody is saying that YOUR dog is no good, just that this is the general mindset that has caused the problems you are trying to deny.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Ha, Well that's funny. I certainly wouldn't recommend you try jumping of the cliff to test it out. But you were never intended to fly, don't have the right stuff in the breeding to do so. Now if you had wings and came from a family line of flyers, I might believe it's possible. 
If my dog's lineage is titled in Schutzhund, is it to be presumed that mine can't be? Simply because I haven't tested her? Unless I see my dog fail at this, I won't assume she can't do it. 

Anyway, I get your point. I'm just commenting on the thread because I find the divisiveness useless. It's great to prefer working lines, I prefer how they look on an esthetic aspect alone. But if someone else prefers the show line version, then why can't they have and enjoy that too without experiencing disdain. 

I like dark chocolate. My daughter likes light chocolate. I may think the light is a watered down less authentic version. But I can't deny that it's the preference of many and I wouldn't think less of anyone who eats the light one. It's all chocolate in the end.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Quote:If my dog's lineage is titled in Schutzhund, is it to be presumed that mine can't be? Simply because I haven't tested her? Unless I see my dog fail at this, I won't assume she can't do it.


And that is a perfectly good way to look at your dog. Nobody is assuming that individual dogs can't do something just because . . . whatever. Everydog had great potential in a lot of venues. 

The trouble is when breeders go on these assumptions to make breeding desicions. You don't know if your dog can do Schutzhund, but you are not going to assume that she can't. Maybe she can. So you take her to a club and have her evaluated. Maybe she hides and runs away from the helper - no big deal, you got her as a pet, and Schutzhund would be for fun. Lots of other stuff you can do. 

Maybe she does awesome! Maybe she is the epitome of a working dog, and does her background and breeding proud!!! But either way, she had to be tested and evaluated before you knew a bit more about her. 

I think what you are saying, is just because you don't work your dog doesn't mean that she can't work. Very true. No issues there. A lot of people take their dogs to a club, and they test very well. 

Again, the real issue about assuming that the dog can work based on pedigree alone without putting the dog to the test is in making breeding decisions - and the people here on this thread are defending their dogs - and each dog should have a champion and a defender - people are right to defend their own dogs, to believe in them, to be proud of them. Absolutely!!!

The problem is when breeders have difficulty in making objective evaluations of their breeding stock and make assumptions of a dog's abilities without testing them out. Like others have said, it is the lack of objectivity and the pretending that a breeding program is something that is not.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your PM box is full. i Pm'ed you.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

hey, that's enough. i have a West German dog.









> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> I've seen people put down West German dogs, saying they are not good working dogs or can't do proper bite work, and so on...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

i feel the same way about the Schutzhund stuff.

"German Shepherds are like a box of chocholates, they're all good"



> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> 
> If my dog's lineage is titled in Schutzhund, is it to be presumed that mine can't be? Simply because I haven't tested her? Unless I see my dog fail at this, I won't assume she can't do it.
> 
> ...


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I am by no means attempting to be antagonistic. I don't know how to put those smileys on or I would put one here... smile.
Of course. Me saying my dog can work without putting her to test, then breed her and call the pups working line would be misleading. But anyone would see this dam has no Sch title. It would be easy to realize. 

So the problem is with a show line breeder who claims their pups are working line? I guess I've never seen that, I thought show line litters are sold as such with pride in fact. True I have little exposure to dog breeders and the majority of my own dogs have been rescued. So I am admittedly niave to that business. 
It still doesn't in my opinion indicate a reason for a rift to develop between those who own SL & those with WL. 
Guess it'd be objectivity that makes us dislike each other's choices, and in some cases each other. With all the WL breeders, owners, interest in work... is it really so threatening to have a SL available to those who want it? Does the apple really affect the orange? 
I'm not arguing the need for people with interest & ability to prove their WLGSD's. It is very important to the breed. Absolutely. 
I just wonder why there isn't some room to accept the other. 
I believe this thread was meant to explore the reasons. The only thing that's coming through is that WL people believe that the SL's will take over the planet and there will be no more WL dogs. Well that would be sad, but I don't believe that's a valid threat. {I'm such an optimist at heart. I can't see my dog failing her test either.} 
So is that a real and possible reality? I find it hard to believe, but if the "experts" all weigh in with that position then we have an answer. The WL enthusiasts believe the WL will become extinct & the milk chocolate will be the only choice left.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Trouble is its not schutzhund stuff...it actually a very good assessment and test of a dog... the work done properly that is, not the piece of paper title. Most people objecting to it, generally, have not enjoyed what it has to offer in understanding the breed and the dog's character.

Be sure that I don't prefer working lines. I never had a preference. I have had many lines.... actually it is an excellent way to learn. Take all those dogs to the field. Track them, let them face a threat, put them through the pressures of performance. Fascinating really. Don't assume anything from a pedigree.

Dogs is dogs, they simply are who they are. They are not egos in need of a human defense.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: doggydog
> I like dark chocolate. My daughter likes light chocolate. I may think the light is a watered down less authentic version. But I can't deny that it's the preference of many and I wouldn't think less of anyone who eats the light one. It's all chocolate in the end.


Here we agree!
And me, being a working line fan, think that the "division of lines" actually helps in some sort to the breed and to the true working bred dogs. The GSD is too popular, it has always been, was before i was born and will keep being.

Working lines dog can, and do! be excellent pets, but they require a kind of owner that not everybody is. They need descipline, excercise, stimulation and overall dedication that not every person is nor want to become. We here in this board are a bunch of passionate people about our dogs, but the majority of people, those who don't even bothered looking "dog" in Google and will never read this thread, only want a dog that requires only the basic care and time and that's it.

Many people here disagree with me, but I'm convinced that if the working lines breeders start breeding thinking on producing dogs that have to do good in any household, then many of the traits that we need for the "hardcore" working dog, as police, military or PPD dogs will be lost. Some of those dogs that even me I'm not prepared yet to own. 

Then we need the Showlines to satisfy the market (because we want it or not, it is market, and one that moves thousands of dollars) of people who want to buy the appearance but not the exigences of such dog, or simply want a nice looking pet, healthy and good nerved enough to hang with the kids because they had one when they were kids themselves.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I have never understood why people think its okay to alter a breed because there is something about the breed they don't like.

If I want a Malinois, I am not going to go say... I'm not sure about this... could you breed me a Mali with some water added so that it will suit ME! Rather I am going to say, what do I need to do to rise to the best this breed has offer?

A fellow up the road from me breeds incredible BCs. They work on farms and some compete internationally. How could I presume to go and say.... these are lovely dogs and the fact that they have been bred with abilities for work is what makes them so fascinating and intelligent. But I am not okay with that... so please take out the part that wants to work all day and leave the black and white smart part. I just find that all so very strange and completely ME driven. I hope to rise to the dog, not require the dog breed change to meet me. I am pretty sure this dude would run me off his property...wonder why?

It is about the preservation of the breed. If there had been more attention to this.. people wouldn't have the experiences and impressions I find out in the public, in veterinary offices, in people's homes, warnings written in pet recommendation books about the GSD.

I do see some wisdom I guess in "GSD Light" so that people can have a pet and officers can have a partner. But, nature is not so nice as to produce litters of police dogs, so there is variety to home in litters. Nature does not like extremes and works against them.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaIf I want a Malinois, I am not going to go say... I'm not sure about this... could you breed me a Mali with some water added so that it will suit ME! Rather I am going to say, what do I need to do to rise to the best this breed has offer?


I think you want a malinois ...


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaI have never understood why people think its okay to alter a breed because there is something about the breed they don't like.
> 
> If I want a Malinois, I am not going to go say... I'm not sure about this... could you breed me a Mali with some water added so that it will suit ME! Rather I am going to say, what do I need to do to rise to the best this breed has offer?


The problem with this breed in particular is that it always has been this way. If you read the GSD history you'll find that this drift existed from the beginning of the breed, that Von Stephanitz faced the same problems. Hey, even before the breed existed! 

Something I forgot to say in my post is that this breed in particular, and it is the big difference with Malinois and Border Collies, was always supposed to be a family dog. But... military and police dogs face challenges than WWII dogs didn't and the average owner of today is not the average owner of 100 years ago, when they didn't have cable TV, overly crowded cities and were not sued if their dogs gave a dirty look at the neighbor.

So I do think that every GSD should be able to be a pet, but not all GSD should have to be able to be the pet of Homer Simpson.



> Quote:
> I do see some wisdom I guess in "GSD Light" so that people can have a pet and officers can have a partner. But, nature is not so nice as to produce litters of police dogs, so there is variety to home in litters. Nature does not like extremes and works against them.


In a wonderful world... absolutely. But there are more people wanting a laid back dog than serious working line breeders having pet quality pups in their litters and, as I said before, this is a business, if there is demand, there will be supply.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Yes, sad the loss of the pastoral agrarian lifestyle. A lot of things lost with it.

Speaking of supply and demand, I was thinking of starting to breed those teacup piggies. I would call my place, Pigmillion!


Oh, and yeah, I want a Malinois. So many dogs, so little time!

Yes, that chocolate thing is cool ... just don't be disturbed if someone lets you know you chose milk chocolate.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Quote:I find the divisiveness useless. It's great to prefer working lines, I prefer how they look on an esthetic aspect alone. But if someone else prefers the show line version, then why can't they have and enjoy that too without experiencing disdain.


Many of us prefer working dogs, period. We go to working lines because our odds of finding what we want is greatly increased. This is just the way it is. Approximately 75-80% of the GSD produced are show or pet lines. Maybe 10-15% (if we are lucky) are from working lines. The rest are a mix of lines. Despite these odds one is still far more likely to find a great working prospect from working lines.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I know for ME that I prefer a dog with a good stable temperament, I need more drive (for agility) and good HEALTHY body that's structured to take the wear and tear of hiking and agility.

Since I'm kind of a 'form = function' type person. And think that generally the body type that has fit the coyote/fox/wolf that's showed that it works over the ages makes it generally a good 'dog' body...................the working line GSD fits what I need. Those breeders are going for the same body type I am looking for, as well as breeding for the temperament I need.

An AKC showline dog does NOT have the same general body type. 

And ANY breeder that isn't trying for a stable mental temperament isn't one I will go to.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I had been ignoring this thread as this always seems to be a circular argument but I really like the points you make Chicago.









I also think that just because a dog does not have titles does not mean they are not capable. Most folks just are not interested in that so the dogs job becomes being a friend, walking partner or whatever. That dose not mean they are not as good and it should not mean that just because a GSD is a pet that they are not capable of working. The vast majority of GSD's no matter what line they come from, are family companions. I think that is probably the most important job in the world for them.









Maybe people love Rally because they can communicate with the dog and it is more low key and laid back. To do Rally well is a challenge and should not be put down as not "real" work or a real test. Pretty clear from the Sieger tapes SChH is not "real" work or a real test either. 



> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: doggydog
> ...










Yep! I love all chocolate just like I love all GSD's. 

I have yet to own a nervy AM show line that won't settle in the house. I love my WG Showline, he is my first one. I may get a WL one day but honestly I don't like they way some of them look. I am not fond of sable dogs with light colored eyes, they just look eerie to me.









In all cases of conformation vs work we have to remember that form follows function. The conformation ring was originally designed to judge breed worthiness in dogs and it should stand that a conformationally correct dog should be able to do the work for which it was bred. It is unfortunate that judges award points to dogs that are weak nerved or lacking ability and then they are bred. 

Every line has it's faults. I have lots of opinions on this too but truth is I just love the breed in all of it's different lines. I think breeders should look at incorporating different lines in their breeding programs to bring balance back to all lines of the breed. 

Kayos is a line mix of AM show and WG showlines, she is just as real a GSD as any other. Of all my dogs I have had she is my favorite. I suspect my next GSD may be a combination dog too. I am looking at WG show and WL combos.

And I know the purists are now having heart attacks.









I agree with you Chicagocanine!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I don't think people would have a problem with 'form follows function' except that, in the ring today, the form is so far removed from functional! it has gone to the extreme and the more that that type wins, the more the form of the dog will shift. 

are there Showline dogs that could work all day? absolutely. but it gets less and less likely that those dogs will do well in the ring, pushing the division even further. look at the Showline dogs of early years and compare them to todays. then, there were slight differences, but the basic form was the same. today, the two dogs barely look like the same breed, except for color and those big ears lol

when I first moved here, and many people have posted similar things in the past, people couldn't believe that he was a GSD because he looked so different than what they were used to seeing.

I guess my point is, if form follows function, shouldn't they at least LOOK similar, even if they don't have the drive?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> I may get a WL one day but honestly I don't like they way some of them look. I am not fond of sable dogs with light colored eyes, they just look eerie to me.


Blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!









Just kidding. I never thought I'd love sables so much until I got one of those creepy light colored eyed dogs


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I have only seen 1 GSD with the slopey hind end and I thought he was suffering from some type of injury or disease. I had seen them in pics from shows and thought it was just a odd looking posture for the show ring. If this type of Shepherd is supposed to be so popular now, then why have I only ever seen 1 like that in my life? 
I got my 1st GSD in 1980 thru accidental circumstances. She was so much more than a dog in my opinion. I've put the GSD in a separate group from regular canines. To me, there's dogs and then there's German Shepherd dogs. After 16 yrs of the regular dogs, I finally got myself another GSD. I had no idea that there was such a distinction. I only knew that they have been too popular for so long that there is a lot of bad breeding. Therefore I went to an ethical breeder who met my satisfaction in terms of temperament and quality. My breeder shows, but none of her dogs have that appearance of standing on rear hocks, and they don't have the roached back.
If I had seen that it would have turned me off. 
Both my Sheps have had more drive than any other type of dog I have had or meet. If there were only WLGSDs, and few


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I have only seen 1 GSD with the slopey hind end and I thought he was suffering from some type of injury or disease. I had seen them in pics from shows and thought it was just a odd looking posture for the show ring


Yes it is an extreme stack that makes them look like this, all moderate show lines look normal. I have had many people stop me and comment on this and when i pull my dogs legs apart then bend his heel, he looks totally different than regular standing and even a normal stack. These are tricks I was shown. Also when pulling hard on the leash they look weird and slopey, but loose lead they should settle with a flat back. 

This is only what I have seen and been shown, am not an expert but love my show line dog who has very stable temperment and has no nervy, spooky reactions to anything.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

This 3 year old was lost over night along with his GSD Spike. He was found safe in a cornfield on his parents 100+ acre farm.
Fortunately we had an unseasonable warm night with the temps only in the 50's.


So shall we all discuss what type of German Shepherd or shall we all just agree he is a great dog, and exactly what we all hope our dogs are and would be.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Botheration, my edit time expired and I lost my post. 

If there were only WLGSDs, and few people who had the ability or inclination to train & utilize that, then wouldn't there be even more negative impressions of the breed as a result. Maybe it's better that there is an abundance of less drivey GSDs to satisfy what has been mentioned here as a huge market. 
And if there is only 15% of WLGSD, then perhaps it's because that's the % of trainers/owners who prefer this type. 
I prefer the appearance of WL over the SL. And I am not daunted by high drive. But I don't dislike the other dog for it, or the owner who prefers that type. 
If it's true that this riff has existed since the breed was founded, then we are unlikely to resolve it here. 
Let's sing together now, We are the world...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I think that is fine, but lets not pretend what the types are and are not.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

If no one pretended would we all be friends? 
I hope you aren't insinuating that i am pretending. Because if anything I am just under informed. I didn't know there were 2 distinctly different lines until coming to this board. GSD's are not popular where I live. I see very few. 
So coming from a novice point of view, the riff seems unnecessary to me. 
But I am not going to pretend it doesn't exist, it's alive and well on this forum for sure.

Off topic question - Why do the judges like the slopey hind appearance? I know nothing about the show world and I'm just curious. If they didn't want to see it, then it wouldn't be so popular. There must be loads of people who think it's grand to get a puppy from a champion in show and don't even realize the distinction between lines.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: SambaSchutzhund titles don't necessarily mean alot. I have seen some earning titles that I wouldn't put in my car. Whether your dog can work or not, depends entirely upon your particular dog. I never had anyone tell me my dog of such and such line couldn't work. But we went on our adventures and I learned her strengths and weaknesses. I learned a lot and all my dogs tended to work about like you would expect from the math of their particular lines. Some stand out above the average and some fall below their peers, no matter what type.


If Schutzhund titles don't mean a dog can work... How do you know your dog can really work, if titling them in Schutzhund does not tell you?
How do you know your dog's parents, grandparents etc (lines) were "good" or could "work" if all you have to go by is their information and titles?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

i don't think there's a problem with Schutzhund. i was agreeing with
"doggydog" on his assessment of Schutzhund training and commenting on his chocholate point of view.



> Originally Posted By: SambaTrouble is its not schutzhund stuff...it actually a very good assessment and test of a dog... the work done properly that is, not the piece of paper title.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I take my dogs to people who have trained and tested and bred GSDs over many years and evaluate them. Get to know people who successfully train and sell dogs for SAR, narcotics, dual purpose, sport etc. Check the dogs out under pressure, determine courage, drive, nerve stability, endurance and heart. There is so much fun in all that too. 

Here is one of my girls... Her lines are obvious, suppositions about her performance in a test of hardness and courage and intensity can be made. Lines and math being what they are, I bet the experienced will be pretty close in their suppositions. Course I didn't just look at the titles on her pedigree and surmise about her. We hit the road, we trained, we met excellent canine experts and frankly had a blast. The dog was who she was in the end and not a surprise in any way because genetics tend to be that way.











I loved her with all my heart and that had nothing do to with an honest evaluation of what the dog brought. She was a great deal of fun to own.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

here's what i have. i have a West German show dog. his line
has all Schutzhund titled dogs in it. my dog is our well trained
highly socialized pet/companion. when i got him i thought
something was wrong with his back. i didn't know what a 
a roached back was,







. 

this line, that line, East, West, DDR, etc. is one line better than another or is it one line has different characterristics than another?
i guess it's which line do you as a buyer want. it's ok to want differently than next person. if all GSD's were the same it would be a boring mess.

i'm going hiking. talk to you when i get back.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

i buy pure bred dogs from reputable breeders. my dogs are well
trained and highly socialized. they're my pets/companions.
they have beauty, smarts and charm. my dogs serve my purpose
and i try to serve theirs.

i know people who show, evaluate, train, breed etc. in knowing these people they don't have a big effect on my dog or my relationship with my dog. they can make sure i get a "good dog" from a reputable breeder. actually a good dog is only as good as i train him and socialize him. when it comes to training
i always start out with private lessons then group. at some point
i do the finish training. 

talk about training, today my GF and i decided to teach our dog
"family hug". we hug and one of us says "family hug". we want our dog to walk between us when we say family hug. maybe we should train him to sit between us when we say "family hug".



> Originally Posted By: SambaI take my dogs to people who have trained and tested and bred GSDs over many years and evaluate them. Get to know people who successfully train and sell dogs for SAR, narcotics, dual purpose, sport etc. Check the dogs out under pressure, determine courage, drive, nerve stability, endurance and heart. There is so much fun in all that too.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Awwww....here's me little american showline puppy headed for the specialty ring...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Here's my pup whose father and uncle were BSP participants. He's an ugly workin dawg but might suit those not looking for light eyed sable.

He jus said, "what you talkin' 'bout, Willis?"


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

OMG, so cute. I love the tent ears.


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

Samba,
I would guess your light sheppy is a showline. But on pic alone, I would've guessed your 2nd one a working line. 
But I have already admitted I am no expert! lol


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My East/West working line gal just got her TD. She loves sheepies most of all though. 










Believe me I am well aware of the split and the splits within the splits and the characteristics, generally, in those types. This results in me having to buy lots of kennels, crates, dog food etc because one type can not do all venues. Is this right? Is there a better way? Should there be more like "one type"?

I don't have an all-breed type dog yet. I do borrow one sometimes though! Got to handle him to 4 points one weekend but that was under duress, believe me!! Just need another kennel, crate, room for yet one.more type for one more specialized venue. Ain't it crazy???


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, the old gal bringing the article is WG showline. The American show ring has a variety of colors.... while black and tan predominates you will see blacks, sables and bi colors in the am show ring. The West German showring, less variety in type and color.

I love those chocolate variety packs... but come on now!! There is a great variation in type. I know that this actually speaks to the appeal of the breed and the versatility of the dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Often, the American AKC GSD speciality show judge is looking for "sidegait", the flying trot if you will. 

BTW, you also have another "split" in the US show ring - the split between the "All Breed" show type and the GSD speciality show type. Believe it or not, these can be cosiderably different! I have a GSD male from a top show kennell and have been told by the breeder that he is more of an all-breed type than a speciality type! Was supposed to be a "top show prospect" when I bought him from the breeder (at 7 weeks!).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> If Schutzhund titles don't mean a dog can work... How do you know your dog can really work, if titling them in Schutzhund does not tell you?
> How do you know your dog's parents, grandparents etc (lines) were "good" or could "work" if all you have to go by is their information and titles?


The title_ itself_ does not tell you. The process of training and trialing and testing the dog under pressure....THAT tells you. The difference is that *most* titling venues do not (IMO) apply enough pressure or enough of the right kind of pressure to really expose the true dog, at least as far as the German Shepherd dog.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what's the difference between the "All Breed" type and 
the "Specialty" type?????


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhat's the difference between the "All Breed" type and
> the "Specialty" type?????


Specialty GSD's are usually very extreme in their structure.

My issue is with the breeders. People choose to breed GSD's but do not understand what a true GSD should be. Extremes are not for everyone, I get that but there are so many variables that affect a dogs teperament that can determine a "working dog" (and I dont mean Schutzhund only. Anything the dog must maintain drive, focus, courage ect) You dont need over the top drives to get a dog with working quality (though they do look good while working . But there should ALWAYS be some quality or potential (or at least a hint of working ability), in all the lines of a GSD. And all breeders of a working breed should understand what that work is, what general traits that breed has (and how evaluate those traits) and really understand what makes these dogs tick. You simply cannot do that in a showring. If showing is your hobby fine, but to breed you need to understand the "working" aspect of the GSD as well. And the "there is no time to do both" (working and showing) is not an excuse. You chose to get involved with breeding a working breed, if all you want to do is prance around a showring, then get into a breed that was created as a companion dog. Regular owners can choose to participate in any venue with their dog, but breeders have an obligation to better the breed and how can you do that if you dont fully understand the dog you are breeding? 

I love schutzhund, its fun. But my main reason for participating is to understand a working dog and what traits they should possess. I do want to become a breeder in the future, and I have to start working now and participating in it to ensure I can grasp the concepts of the sport and other working venues. How could I decide to breed a particular breed if I didnt even understand what they are TRULY supposed to be?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Don't you just need to understand your niche type and also be ready to defend any individual pets?

Oh, yes, that pressure thing. I am getting the impression most people don't really understand that and in fact most people breeding probably don't either.

Also, in the show ring, different judges like certain types. It is smart to try and understand what judges like your type of dog so that you have a better chance of winning. So, you have two types of show ring dogs, then within those rings, certain types best to take to certain judges. Anyone else crazy yet??


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

Oh my. It was making me crazy already! It's layers now.
This conversation had me curious and I googled for some information and saw that there is indeed 2 totally different show lines, well 3 if you count the German. 
Samba, your pics made me think, it would be fun to make a thread where people could post pics of their dogs and everyone could try to guess on visuals alone what line they are. That would be a hoot. 
I wouldn't post mine though or we'll have a whole new controversy. 

When I got mine I was aware that her dame had obedience & show titles mostly. Her Sire was 1st generation from Germany and his family background all had Sch ll or lll titles. From that I assumed he was from WL. Since then I have learned that all German dogs title in order to breed so he may have been German SL after all. 
I don't know how her drive compares to a full WL, but she makes my other dog seem like a piece of furniture, lol. Coco is the most laid back non-drive low activity dog I've ever known. What an odd pair they make, but they love each other anyway and of course I'm crazy about both of them.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I haven't heard anything about a very valuable to society working type - the seeing eye GSD. Would a working line dog from Germany or other European country produce good seeing eye dogs? Lots of "drive"? 

Would the rest of you consider these to be a "working" dogs? How about "Therapy" dogs?

Plus I would suspect, from the one German background GSD that I have owned, that a dog with that type of temperament would be too much for a lot of GSD pet owners. He was hard as a rock, as he should be as he was the son of the dog who twice was hi scoring protection dog at the Seiger show. At 9 months he was the star when I took him to a Sch training club in DE when I lived there. But he also scared the [heck] out of a lot of people yet we thought he was a great dog. But a real "handful"!

The great thing about the GSD breed is that they are so versatile and able to do so many many things very well.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: codmaster
> The great thing about the GSD breed is that they are so versatile and able to do so many many things very well.


Very true! I love this about the breed and about my own dog. Recently I took my GSD to a venue where we were able to try many different activities all in one day. It was lots of fun, and I was pleasantly surprised when she excelled at all of them (we did a herding instinct test and tried tracking, agility, lure coursing, carting, and therapy dog test practice.)

Of course I do have to mention that my (field type) Golden Retriever also did most of those well-- although I never did get to try tracking with her and obviously she didn't herd. She was a working therapy dog for 8 years and did agility, carting, lure coursing, and obedience... We also dabbled in freestyle, rally, weight pull, and trained for water rescue but did not have a chance to do the testing.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I would not count therapy dog as working dog in this particular context. You don't need work ethics and determination for therapy dog work. You just need to be a really really well behaved CGC dog.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I disagree with that.









A therapy dog requires rock solid nerve and a very intuitive mind.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I don't know - I see therapy dog work as something that ideally all dogs (from GSD to chihuahua) should be able to do. It has nothing to do with any particular traits of any particular breed to be preserved through good breeding.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: KathyWI disagree with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes and no. For me that is a requirement, but my dog has passed three different therapy assessments/evaluations and IMO she is not a candidate for therapy work, but the therapy groups have pressured me about it because "she passed so she'd do so good!" I did not find that the tests really revealed the true temperament or soundness of the dog. All of the items were training exercises that my aloof, neurotic dog easily passed. She did not really enjoy the mock therapy work we did as part of the training and evaluation, but she performed the work exceptionally well as far as sitting still and doing as she was told with impeccable manners.

So, I also agree with Jason. When evaluating temperament, the evaluations need to be more tailored to the German Shepherd dog. I like the TT (the ATTS version) much more than the CGC or the therapy evaluations we did because they take breed into account and test temperament and soundness (you are not allowed to touch, cue, command... your dog during the test).


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Spoken as someone that agrees- even if the dog can pass a therapy test does not mean they will be good therapy dogs. I have one that passed to and is not suited either, one of my other dogs is a fabulous therapy dog. A dog doing therapy should be rock solid.

Not to compare therapy and SchH (like comparing apple pie and steak) but there are lots of dogs with SchH titles that are not really suited to the sport either. That can be said about any canine sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> 
> Not to compare therapy and SchH (like comparing apple pie and steak) but there are lots of dogs with SchH titles that are not really suited to the sport either. That can be said about any canine sport.


Nope but it certainly exposes these weaknesses. I think really experienced SchH people can watch the dog train or compete and see these flaws. Whereas, I have trained my dog for rally, agility, pet therapy...and she performs these just fine and the only person that knows there are temperament flaws is me because these activites don't expose that.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

And what about those GSD (certainly not mine, who loves everyone who has hands) that are really aloof (as writen in the standard) and don't care to be petted by strangers? Are they less GSDs by not making good therapy dogs?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I think the point of a therapy dog as "working dog" for me, is that it does indeed require nerves of steel (to be a good one). They must be stable, no noise sensitivity, no skittishness etc.
That is a facet of the GSD that can use some improvement (at least in the dogs that I see.)
I see LOTS of high drive dogs at home, but they are too nervy to perform away from home.
So that rock-solid temperament is imho a very important part of what the breed needs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiAnd what about those GSD (certainly not mine, who loves everyone who has hands) that are really aloof (as writen in the standard) and don't care to be petted by strangers? Are they less GSDs by not making good therapy dogs?


Nope, that's why I agree with Jason that it's not an appropriate _breed_ test. IMO it just doesn't test the *right* stuff.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiAnd what about those GSD (certainly not mine, who loves everyone who has hands) that are really aloof (as writen in the standard) and don't care to be petted by strangers? Are they less GSDs by not making good therapy dogs?
> ...


And thats why its important to understand the breed. There are so many dog breeds out there for every job why do people think altering the GSD's temperament is necessary? Breeding for a working quality dog will still give you pet quality pups, therapy pups, service dog pups ect. Breeding the "extreme" does not mean all the pups will be "extreme". I just dont get it


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

I don't see Therapy Dogs as a breedworthiness test, no.

An appropriately aloof dog can do Therapy work too. My girl loved it and she was great. We had really special times with veterans we visited. She would appropriately accept petting, never sought it.
The dog was strong enough to do this work, but I would not have bred her.

Breeding for any extemity will be hard and will yield many middle of the road dogs...nature abhors a vacuum and extremity.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I think the point of a therapy dog as "working dog" for me, is that it does indeed require nerves of steel (to be a good one). They must be stable, no noise sensitivity, no skittishness etc.
> That is a facet of the GSD that can use some improvement (at least in the dogs that I see.)
> I see LOTS of high drive dogs at home, but they are too nervy to perform away from home.
> So that rock-solid temperament is imho a very important part of what the breed needs.


Well said! And I never said an aloof dog could not be a good therapy dog. The only temperament requirement I stated was nerves of steel. There are some wonderful working line GSD's that are terrific therapy dogs. I look at Cel Hope's website all the time http://www.celhaus.com

She does therapy work with her dogs too, no one said GSD working in therapy has to be golden retriever in disguise. 

Bottom line and getting back to the OP's original question- every line of GSD can excel in many things so why is there a rift?

I love them all. And I honsetly do not see a whole lot of difference in the temperament of my AM Showline, my WG showline and many of the WL dogs I know. Difference in level of drive, yes I do see that and that can definitely dictate the type of work the dog is suited to.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18I've gotten some real flack at times for recommending that new GSD owners might not want a working line dog... They're great for me, but I do train dogs... but most of the people that I've had in local obedience classes wouldn't know what to do to correct certain behaviors.


That's to bad because you are dead on right there in my opinion. I know I could NOT handle a working line dog and would not even want to try. I would be one to thank you for your advice and most definitely follow it!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SambaWhat do people mean by put down lines? I seldom see that occuring?


What I see and hear are those that put down any kind of non-standard coated GSD. GSD's w/longer hair are actually called a fault in the breeders world and I think the show world. I heard you can't show a long hair because it's a fault in the coat. I've had breeders of the standard coat look at me and my dogs w/their noses in the air all snooty because one's a plush and one's a long hair. I've had breeders tell me "You know that's a fault, don't you?" Well, no it's not in my opinion, they're both beautifully coated dogs and believe me do we ever get the gushy compliments from passers' by when we're out and about. After finding the longer haired versions of GSD's I wouldn't want one w/a standard coat, LOL! 

If it's ok to have different colors in the breed such as black, sable, bi-color, black and tan, white (I heard whites are scoffed at too in some circles) whatever, why the length of the coat is *not* ok, really boggles my mind. They're all GSD's, different colors, different coats but they are all the same *breed* in my opinion. 

I heard that the show ring is mostly the American variety and that GSD's of German show lines usually don't do well in the ring because the judges prefer the American line. I have no idea how true that is but watching dog shows, I can see that it's predominantely the American line so I'm thinking this must pretty much be true. I personally much prefer the German lines, I don't care for what we call the sloped hind-end but I consider that a matter of preference.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderevery pup in a working line litter isn't going to have the amount of drive necessary to work and every show line dog isnt going to be suitable for the show ring. this is where i think 'pets' should come from.


Dummy me ... I thought they did, LOL!


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## GSDinOly (Apr 19, 2009)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*

Honestly, I think the reason is ignorance. People will do what they want with what they want to suit what the want. It's a total lack of being able to understand what Von Stephanitz said and wished for. Or, understanding, but not caring. For example, read these quotes from the captain, 
"The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs."

"All the wonderful qualities of character possessed by a good shepherd dog will therefore only be brought to light when he remains in the same hands for a very long time, preferably from puppyhood, where having obtained a footing in the house, he shares the joys and sorrows of the family...and our dog is completely ruined in mind and body wherever he is treated only as merchandise..."

"...joy in work, devotion to duty, and to master, mistrust and sharpness against strange and irregular things, docility and obedience, teachableness and quickness to understand, and in addition, immunity to weather, uncommonly acute senses with gifts for retrieving and seeking, assisted by his special gait (going to and fro), by which he leaves nothing unnoticed and unsought wherever he may be. From such natural talents, to which must be added precociousness, physical and mental, everything can be developed..."

How many different ways can these be interpreted?? MANY. Everyone wants to be an expert as if the ARE Von Stephanitz. HA!However, there is one main underlying factor, the dogs have to have jobs. The rift lies in my dog being better than your dog; whether its the show lines or working lines. It's a bunch of bull. There are bad apples in ALL genetics, and there are your genius' too. People all liked different things about the GSD whatever the line might be. They go with it, BUT! The traits they are dealing with are still GSD traits. No dog is better than the other. Can working lines do work better? Can show lines gait better? Doesn't matter AS LONG as those dogs have a job and are physically nurtured and mentally stimulated. Yes, people do put down other lines. I see it all the time, and it's people who have working lines that do it most. Let me remind you though, there are a lot of darn good show line dogs out there, the proper time was spent with them and the real GSD is in there. There is so much more I could say on this topic, but it will be way to long, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying. It's completely stupid how GSD people act sometimes.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: Why is there so much of a rift in the GSD bree*



> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Camerafodderevery pup in a working line litter isn't going to have the amount of drive necessary to work and every show line dog isnt going to be suitable for the show ring. this is where i think 'pets' should come from.
> ...


well of course some do (maybe even majority) but i was responding to the member who mentioned 'pet lines'. which i imagine are people ("breeders") who just take beautiful, healthy, friendly, papered dogs, regardless of lines, and breed them. crossing lines and what have you.


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