# What do you look for in a PSA trainer?



## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Once quarantine is over I’d love to dive into a sport with Dani, and I’m partial to PSA for a number of reasons (proximity being a big one, my trainers enthusiastic and gleeful love of the sport being another.) I know it’s pretty mal-dominated but I don’t care as much about Uber-excelling as I do just learning about it and bonding with my dog while giving her an outlet for all the biting she seems to really enjoy. Unfortunately at the moment I don’t know enough about PSA to feel confident in being able to tell when a trainer/decoy/club should be trusted with my pup. From the looks of it, it’s easier to get caught in a sketchy PSA experience than IPO for instance so I’d love to know what some red flags I can look out for would be, or in general be directed to some good resources on the subject! I’m worried about my dog being incorrectly assessed for the sport and being encouraged to join in spite of it not being suitable for her temperament, worried about inexperienced decoys not catching my dog safely, worried about D being over-corrected or being worked in the wrong drive etc. Basically just worried about not being able to tell when something is being done incorrectly until it negatively affects dog in a manner that’s tricky to reverse. I know there’s always risk involved in sport but I’d rather do my best to minimize it by knowing what to look for and what to keep in mind as deal breakers. Our current trainer is also a decoy, and though I would feel comfortable diving into the sport with him he is faaar from local to me (different countries.) And before you ask I absolutely am having this conversation with him as well but I wanted to hear from a multitude of experiences! We do have schutzhund close-ish to me and I wouldn’t be opposed to it, they’re members of the GSSCC and look very uh, legit? Based on what I’ve seen online, but IPO wouldn’t be my first choice personally. So yeah, I’d love to hear from some folks regarding their knowledge or experience! Thanks.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

With any sport, look for a successful club with a trainer and decoy that are working with people and helping them trial and title their dogs.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Go to clubs, even if they are too far for normal training, and soak in the experience. They are usually happy to have visitors if you contact them first. Watch the dynamics and interactions.

I’ll spew some questions you might want to consider in your head:
How helpful are the members to others goals? Does the training director and/or decoys seem open to helping you develop? Do the members get along? As @Steve Strom suggested, how successful are they at titling and does that level of success work with your goals? Is this a member club or a pay to play? How is lunch handled? Club involves a lot of downtime, do you like being at that club all day?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

My intro to PSA was through a friend, never competed and didn’t go very far due to a jaw issue that developed with my dog... but for a time, continued to go to observe and work my dog a little at the end of practice just to utilize the resources.

One of my take aways should I ever return to the sport is to inquire about members experience with other sports as well as other breeds. PSA is Mal heavy in general but especially in this particular club. It can feel pretty rough and less refined than schutzhund for example, but depends on what you’ve been exposed to. I appreciated a lot that they were willing and able to adjust to my dogs breed and temperament without him being pushed too far or pushed aside like he was inadequate.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Steve Strom said:


> With any sport, look for a successful club with a trainer and decoy that are working with people and helping them trial and title their dogs.


I’m kinda embarrassed because that advice is so straightforward and obvious but truly didn’t occur to me as the main thing to look for. Thank you!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

PSA has a bad reputation around here - kind of the rough around the edges version of dog bite sports. BUT, if you can find and work with a good club, where the members are titling in the sport, with a skilled decoy, go for it. I'd like to compete in PSA, and so would my dog, but I see a lot of unofficial clubs, where it's just iffy and iffy bite work is worse than no bite work. 

I don't love all aspects of IPO (IGP) - but there are many more legitimate clubs and skilled decoys available within a reasonable distance so I can actually title my dogs - although I still have to drive quite a ways for helper work because I am very picky. A bad helper can not only damage a dog physically, but mentally as well. 

With bite work you want to make sure it is done well and right- and that's just harder to fine in PSA circles. Or that is my personal experience. Have you considered Mondio if you have access to a club? I'd jump at the chance to do mondio, I know of a great club but it is far away and I simply can't drive 10-plus hours each weekend!


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> Go to clubs, even if they are too far for normal training, and soak in the experience. They are usually happy to have visitors if you contact them first. Watch the dynamics and interactions.
> 
> I’ll spew some questions you might want to consider in your head:
> How helpful are the members to others goals? Does the training director and/or decoys seem open to helping you develop? Do the members get along? As @Steve Strom suggested, how successful are they at titling and does that level of success work with your goals? Is this a member club or a pay to play? How is lunch handled? Club involves a lot of downtime, do you like being at that club all day?


Very dumb question probably, but what makes a club... a club? I’m seeing a list of “clubs” in my province, none of which are close enough for me to attend at the moment, and the facility in my city doesn’t seem to fall into the same category at first glance. I might be wrong though. It is a broader training facility that also happens to list PSA as one of their services (along with PP, obedience, and behaviour mod.)


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Fodder said:


> My intro to PSA was through a friend, never competed and didn’t go very far due to a jaw issue that developed with my dog... but for a time, continued to go to observe and work my dog a little at the end of practice just to utilize the resources.
> 
> One of my take aways should I ever return to the sport is to inquire about members experience with other sports as well as other breeds. PSA is Mal heavy in general but especially in this particular club. It can feel pretty rough and less refined than schutzhund for example, but depends on what you’ve been exposed to. I appreciated a lot that they were willing and able to adjust to my dogs breed and temperament without him being pushed too far or pushed aside like he was inadequate.


I’m wondering if, in spite of the more refined nature of IPO that screams tedious and rigid to me, it would be more beginner friendly for me to dive into a sport better suited for my dog’s breed. Maybe managing breed expectations and the tailoring of the “normal” approach to the sport while getting into it for the first time is biting off more than I can chew? Unless I can quickly absorb indecent amounts of info pertaining to PSA prior to diving into it haha.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Muskeg said:


> PSA has a bad reputation around here - kind of the rough around the edges version of dog bite sports. BUT, if you can find and work with a good club, where the members are titling in the sport, with a skilled decoy, go for it. I'd like to compete in PSA, and so would my dog, but I see a lot of unofficial clubs, where it's just iffy and iffy bite work is worse than no bite work.
> 
> I don't love all aspects of IPO (IGP) - but there are many more legitimate clubs and skilled decoys available within a reasonable distance so I can actually title my dogs - although I still have to drive quite a ways for helper work because I am very picky. A bad helper can not only damage a dog physically, but mentally as well.
> 
> With bite work you want to make sure it is done well and right- and that's just harder to fine in PSA circles. Or that is my personal experience. Have you considered Mondio if you have access to a club? I'd jump at the chance to do mondio, I know of a great club but it is far away and I simply can't drive 10-plus hours each weekend!


this is exactly what I’m worried about! Damaging my dog either physically or mentally when it could have been avoided by me just knowing more about what I was getting into is not a desirable outcome. One of the reasons I’m posting here is because the facility in my city that lists PSA as one of their “services” definitely feels kinda iffy to me, and I wanted to know what questions I can ask/what I can look for if I do contact them or make an appearance. I might avoid them altogether however if an absence of a clear affiliation to a club is enough of a red flag. And absolutely no Mondio haha, I cant even find a decent trainer to help me with raising my puppy in Toronto. Had to go with someone from Cali (frustrated about how Cali seems to be a trainer-I-would-consider-working-with cornucopia while Toronto.... isn’t.) I should probably check out the more legitimate looking IPO club nearby and stop looking a gift horse in the mouth.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

nsfvlada said:


> Very dumb question probably, but what makes a club... a club? I’m seeing a list of “clubs” in my province, none of which are close enough for me to attend at the moment, and the facility in my city doesn’t seem to fall into the same category at first glance. I might be wrong though. It is a broader training facility that also happens to list PSA as one of their services (along with PP, obedience, and behaviour mod.)


I’m with my first club and first sport training dog, so I’m not an expert. This is just my personal experience. In some clubs, members pay and decide how funds are spent. Field time is split and members work together to help others grow and understand their dog. From my understanding, some clubs are set up where you pay to be trained by the TD and decoy time. 
They both call themselves clubs. Other club members here would maybe be able to explain this more delicately than me.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You're going to hear a lot of opinions about the different sports, mine is more real then yours, that kinda crap. No matter the sport, bite work taps into things with a dog that like Muskeg said, you want to do right. Experience is everything with a trainer. If I can't verify it, it doesn't exist is my way of looking at it. Show me. So if a trainer is telling you a lot of things, claiming this or that, I want to see the proof.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I train with a PSA decoy. We had just started Seger in PSA, with Nick Hodgens, and had one session with Shawn Edwards when the covid hit. First, as with any decoy/helper, make sure they are successful and their people are successful. find out what their experience is with dogs in general for training and in real life. Second, make sure there are GOOD recommendations. Third, go watch them. Do you see questionable things? Or do you see the trainers being fair to the dogs and teaching them. Do you see a level of control and obedience and still see happy dogs? Or are they halfassing down the field with questionable control and dogs with tails tucked? This goes for ALL clubs. 

German Shepherds do fine in this sport. Theresa Currier to a dog to the WUSV and then won the PSA nationals a few years ago. It's really about finding the right thing for the individual dog. If you want recommendations, I could ask Nick if he knows any in Canada.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

As a general rule, if a decoy or trainer hasn't titled a dog in a sport related to or the same as the one you want to pursue, consider carefully whether or not you want to work with them. This, and Covid restrictions is partly why I'm going with online training with a proven expert (world class)- for IPO OB to start. You can't do helper work online, of course, but especially in IPO you can set a really solid foundation on your own. I knew someone who lived in the sticks who got their IPO1 with very little actual helper work. 

I'd stay away from PP people (in general). I think you have good instincts here! Try out the IPO club, be super open, ask a lot of questions, and learn as much as you can. I think that's the way to go.

Toronto... hmm. Have you considered clubs in Michigan? I think my female's litter sister goes to a club there, I can ask around.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

A club in Michigan would be a helluva drive from TO! 

@nsfvlada can you PM me your trainer? Fellow 416-er here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't agree that a decoy/helper has to title dogs in the sport. Some have no interest in titling dogs but are super good at training protection work. it really depends on who has taught the person. I know people who have titled dogs at high levels and they kind of suck as a helper. I want to see what the people that train with the person has done. That goes for obedience/tracking as well. If the students are successful then there is a breakdown somewhere.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Whoops, got my geography confused! You're right.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good point Jax, that makes sense to me, and I agree that student outcomes are more important than the instructor actually titling especially for a helper. I don't think, for example, you have to be a world class marathoner to successfully coach world class marathoners (but can be beneficial to have been a competitive runner). Coaching success is shown in student success, and a helper is, in essence, a coach.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Just to add, I struggled finding a trainer worth paying to coach me in dog sport as I was really trying to stay close to home. So, I'm figuring some of this out myself! We'll see if I end up choosing correctly. I hope so.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Muskeg - absolutely agree. It's always beneficial to understand the whole picture.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Muskeg said:


> Just to add, I struggled finding a trainer worth paying to coach me in dog sport as I was really trying to stay close to home. So, I'm figuring some of this out myself! We'll see if I end up choosing correctly. I hope so.


Aren't you in PA? There are a ton of good trainers in this state.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

nsfvlada said:


> this is exactly what I’m worried about! Damaging my dog either physically or mentally when it could have been avoided by me just knowing more about what I was getting into is not a desirable outcome. One of the reasons I’m posting here is because the facility in my city that lists PSA as one of their “services” definitely feels kinda iffy to me, and I wanted to know what questions I can ask/what I can look for if I do contact them or make an appearance. I might avoid them altogether however if an absence of a clear affiliation to a club is enough of a red flag. And absolutely no Mondio haha, I cant even find a decent trainer to help me with raising my puppy in Toronto. Had to go with someone from Cali (frustrated about how Cali seems to be a trainer-I-would-consider-working-with cornucopia while Toronto.... isn’t.) I should probably check out the more legitimate looking IPO club nearby and stop looking a gift horse in the mouth.


Where are you located? TO is a big place but there is a trainer who was very kind and helpful when I had issues with the Punk located around Oakville? I think. Cambridge? Somewhere thereabouts


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

PSA is sort of different than IGP but the bottom line is that you have to have a super talented decoy and someone who can help you with foundation training that will lead to success. The reality is that this type of training is as rare as hen’s teeth. One of the best ways to lay the obedience foundation is with a place box, marker training, food so you can provide continuous reinforcement and the use of self discovery via the place box. The next thing is having a skilled decoy that doesn’t beg your dog to bite and to start the dog on a leather pillow which teaches the dog he has to grip or he will lose the prey. You give the dog a few times to get it and if he keeps failing you put him up. You don’t lower the expectation to see “success”. Then, you need a really good decoy that can teach a pushing bite. That teaches the dog that when stress becomes a factor he learns to turn off the stress by pushing. There is a ton of boring foundation work to get your dog to come to a service finish which should become a default as opposed to an AKC finish. Once you have a good foundation you have to add distractions and environmental stressors. To be honest, if you don’t have a dog with good drive and nerves and access to really good training, you are pissing in the wind. That is why so many show line GSDs can obtain their IGP titles. It is a concoction. That is not to say that all dogs who earn titles in the upper levels of PSA are really good dogs. The fact that only one GSD has ever obtained a PSA 3 is revealing. Many of the Mals and Mal X’s have so much prey and possessiveness, their intense drive masks their nerve issues. I.am very fortunate to have the GSD I have and access to top level training. Without those options, you will only go so far.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I will add my opinion about your dog being worked in the “wrong” drive. While drive can be manipulated by a talented decoy, a lot has to do with a dog’s genetic temperament. PSA was designed for Mals who tend to have much higher prey drive than a GSD and a higher threshold for defensive aggression. To compete in PSA with a GSD you need a dog with good prey drive, good nerves, and a higher threshold for defensive aggression. That doesn’t mean you need a GSD with extreme prey drive, which is not part of the breed standard, nor does it mean you can’t have a GSD that has aggression, but the threshold for aggression needs to be higher because PSA is all about controlled aggression, probably too much, especially for a balanced GSD. When you get through the foundation training, imagine being able to have your dog heel off leash with a focused heel while three people are shaking can curtains and clatter sticks right next to your dog and actually hitting the dog with a clatter stick and doing the same thing after you have downed your dog in motion. A reactive, low threshold for defense, or overly nervy dog will not be able to handle this type of training. That is not to say that a GSD that struggles with some of this training cannot be conditioned to have his thresholds raised. Good training is a balance of putting a lot of time into the fundamentals and knowing when to push your dog enough to stress him without creating shut down or avoidance. A major difference between IGP vs. PSA that I have noticed is that IGP tends to focus on building drive such as the use of the whip in bite work. In PSA the opposite is required. You need to teach your dog to think, focus and make the right choices because it is not a patterned sport like IGP and the dog has to learn to think and control his aggression. We never use a whip at our club in bite work. Sometimes a whip is used in obedience to get more drive out of a dog(usually a GSD) but only sparingly because again, the dog needs to learn to control his drive/aggression. IMO, PSA is a lot more about adjusting the training to the type of dog you are training vs. IGP where the training can be more smoke and mirrors.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sooo...now that we've gone off topic to trash showlines and IGP...again....did you get your answer on HOW to find a reputable decoy/helper?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Were my comments inaccurate or just things you don’t want to hear?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not engaging, Chip. You should stick to PSA and stop telling people how IGP is trained when it's obvious you keep giving out bad information of things you think you know. And possibly stick to the topic of the thread instead of taking your little parting shots at show lines. We know you despise them and it's just getting old. 

Now...off to enjoy the rest of my Mother's Day.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is not about despisement, but educating people about how the parent organization of the breed (the SV) has bastardized the breed for money. People can make their own choices and I can share my own opinions. Give some examples of how I am giving out bad information.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

just another thought, If you cannot find a PSA club that feels like a good match, you could also look into American Schutzhund.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Jax,
Not so sure I'm giving out bad information about IGP. Why the need for American Schutzhund unless people think the sport has lost its way?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

There are a number of reasons for American Schutzhund and I am not the expert on it, but here is one difference. With IGP it is getting increasingly difficult to find fields to practice tracking on never mind hold trials on. The American Schutzhund scent detection is based more in line with actual police / military work searching indoors through cinderblocks. It is more inline with what the breed is doiing now. 

As far as the politics go I believe we didn't want to be dictated to by people overseas who had ideas we didn't agree with. But that is politics all the time everywhere for everything.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I just read this entire thread and want to address a couple things. So I'm going to give my two cents.

1) Being a decoy/helper is it's own sport. It requires it's own set of skills that are very different to being a handler. So I'm not a believer in the decoy NEEDS to title a dog. I personally love trialing. I'm a competitive person, but when it comes to club I just don't have the energy. I'm in a suit four plus days a week these days between clubs and various training company's. Once I put my suit on it's non stop until all dogs are worked. Then usually there is no-one to work my dogs. So keep that in mind.

2) Club affiliations are a pain sometimes. I have let my clubs affiliations laps. Too much money forked out and my club doesn't get much out of it. I also have a mixed club. IGP, PSA,WDA, and Ring people. Some are very successful, some are not. I also get a lot of people who work with other clubs but their TD's send them to me to get work on various things. So it's always a big mish mash of dogs and people.

3) At the end of the day, you just need to visit every club you can. Check out all the sports you have access to. Do you like the people? Are they welcoming? Do they answer your questions? Willing to teach you? Look at how the TD/Decoys, problem solve with the dogs. Do they blame the dog or just figure out a way to work through it? Are they willing to listen to suggestions? Are they explaining what they are working on with the dogs, or is it an assembly line? Look at the dogs being worked both in OB, bitework and so on. Do those dogs represent the way you want your dog to look? If you like the answers to these questions, then you've found your club.

Don't get caught up in a particular sport. I'm involved one way or another in a lot of them. What I've found is they're really good at putting other sports down, and in many cases they know nothing about them. Or have extremely limited experiences with them. So I would recommend, going and checking out every club/trainer you can regardless of venue. If you like the product go there. You will learn a lot and understand how to be handler/trainer. Once you get that figured out, crossing over to other sports isn't that hard.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Every. Single. Thing. @mycobraracr. Said. 

I can't like that post enough.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

car2ner,
American schutzhund is largely the result of the sport being diluted to prop up the European show lines getting their titles and snowflake dog ethics people banning legitimate training tools as well as also contribiting to the dilution of IGP, such as going from the reed to the padded stick, to some countries banning stick hits altogether. When the sport is diluted, the gene pool becomes diluted and the breed changes for the worse. 
mycobraracr,
I agree with what you say, but Debbie Zappia certainly knows what she is talking about and is saying the sport of IGP as it is, is harming the breed. The other thing is that because the U.S. is so large, it is not uncommon to have to travel hours to find a good club and that makes training impractical for many people who have other responsibilities and it becomes more of a chore than a joy. I was very fortunate to find a small PSA club with excellent training and no ego or political issues ten minutes from my house. That is pretty much unheard of for most dog sports. It is somewhat different in some of the major cities. We don't even have dues. I have done the travel thing with schutzhund and run into the ego issues, even though some of those people were extremely talented helpers. I think IGP and especially WDA are poor sports in terms of being concerned about the gene pool of the various working/protection breeds. How many GSDs can make it in the higher levels in PSA and Ring sport? There is a reason many can't.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> mycobraracr,
> I agree with what you say, but Debbie Zappia certainly knows what she is talking about and is saying the sport of IGP as it is, is harming the breed. The other thing is that because the U.S. is so large, it is not uncommon to have to travel hours to find a good club and that makes training impractical for many people who have other responsibilities and it becomes more of a chore than a joy. I was very fortunate to find a small PSA club with excellent training and no ego or political issues ten minutes from my house. That is pretty much unheard of for most dog sports. It is somewhat different in some of the major cities. We don't even have dues. I have done the travel thing with schutzhund and run into the ego issues, even though some of those people were extremely talented helpers. I think IGP and especially WDA are poor sports in terms of being concerned about the gene pool of the various working/protection breeds. How many GSDs can make it in the higher levels in PSA and Ring sport? There is a reason many can't.



Sports are for handlers and puppy buyers. Titles don't tell us anything about the dogs being bred. Yes I think people breed for sports, and people are unwilling to take a good hard look at their dogs. Just because a dog has earned a title doesn't automatically make it breed worthy. So a sport in itself shouldn't be watering down a breed. That's on the humans. Give me a weekend with a dog and I can learn more about it than I'll ever see on a trial field. Sports are trainers games. Even PSA. Shoot that's straight from Sean Siggens mouth. PSA is my favorite sport to play in. but doesn't make it the end all be all. On paper, WDA is my absolute favorite sport. Not a fan of how it's going these days, which is why I had stepped away for a couple years. I can tell you it was all about pressure. Not pressure from objects but from the man. Some dogs with the nicest OB I've ever seen used to score in the low 90's high 80's. It was HARD! PSA and Ring sports were designed for Mals. All the different streamers and distractions. Most decent GSD's don't give a crap about that stuff. I can say my dutchie, most certanily needed to be shown those things. You are correct, their has only been 1 GSD to achieve a PSA3. But look at the sample size. Let's keep in mind there's only been what 23 teams to ever achieve a PSA3 anyway? Then look at the handlers. Half of those are from the same 2-3 people. So I don't see that as a good example. I've traveled a lot and worked with multiple PSA clubs in California, Nevada, Colorado and Texas. The truth is rarely do I see good GSD's in the PSA clubs. Your hardcore GSD people are still going to be in SchH. It's just the way it is. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "we don't see GSD's like yours" at PSA clubs and seminars I'd be a rich man. Well I'd at least be able to buy a nice lunch haha.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I agree that titles are limited in telling you what a dog has to contribute to the gene pool. Some sports tell you more than others and IMO, IGP has been a massive failure. Breeders breeding for police dogs don’t look at IGP dogs. Even with KNPV which is the sport most associated with strengthening the gene pool for police dog candidates doesn’t look to the podium dogs. They tend to look at dogs that barely obtain their PH1 because those are the toughest dogs. The Mals that doesn’t well in PSA more often than not are the best dogs for police work. Training vs. genetics is always an issue. Hardcore GSD people are in IPO because it is essentially a watered down obedience sport that requires the type of dog that is usually not genetically suited for police work. The GSD’s that do well at PSA tend to be balanced dogs with good training and nerves. Nerve issues in the GSD are rampant and the lack of good training is rampant. High drive Mals often excel at PSA due to their extreme drive which compensated for other traits that are lacking and there is also a lot of poor quality training in PSA and sports like WDA. I recently watched a video of a WDA training day and the training was embarrassingly pitiful.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

We can watch video of lots of clubs training days from multiple venues and say it's pitiful. Doesn't mean much to me. I think every sport has it's good and bad. At the end of the day I try and look past that and look at the dogs. I'm well aware of what makes a good LE dog. I work with multiple agencies multiple days a week, decoying training and testing prospects for them. It comes down to individual dogs and trainers, not what sport they were raised in. We can disagree until we are blue in the face. My mind won't be changed. I came to this conclusion through becoming certified and my personal experience of working dogs, in all these different venues all over the Western US.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

So you can reliably tell by watching a GSD do a B&H or a long bite if the dog could be kicked in the head in downtown Detroit and stay in the fight? Handlers testing for police dog candidates don’t use sport exercises to assess dogs.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> So you can reliably tell by watching a GSD do a B&H or a long bite if the dog could be kicked in the head in downtown Detroit and stay in the fight? Handlers testing for police dog candidates don’t use sport exercises to assess dogs.


What’s the obsession with police dogs? The breed can do other things. A psa dog couldn’t flip straight to police dog either. There’s no detection. Sport is sport. It’s just what flavor do you like or what is semi available in your area. For me that means 8+ hours away


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

You can tell a lot from a B&H and long bite. Will the dog hold up to getting kicked in the head in head in downtown Detroit? Well, I won't know that until I work it. That goes for every sport. I'm not aware of any sport where that's a scenario. Yes, PSA does a good job with distractions and environmental pressures but it's still done on a field. Doesn't mean that none of those dogs have environmental issues. Doesn't mean they can handle pressure from the man. Doesn't mean they'd make a great street dog. Sports are sports, LE work is LE work. When I'm looking for a police dog candidate, I don't care where it came from. Does the dog have what I'm looking for? Then bring it. I will also say that every department looks for something different. I was testing dogs for a city PD, and a county SO last week. These agencies are in the same area, yet what they needed in their dogs was very different. The tests I ran were very different. At the end of the day, humans do the sports they enjoy. So there is a wide range of dogs in every venue. The level of trainers is very different. So how the dogs may be represented is very different. So once again I don't care where a dog comes from. Once it comes to me, it's a blank slate to see what's in the dog.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For me, the primary use and breeding goals for the GSD should be as a military or police dog. That includes detection, which can be trained outside of sport. I am not saying most PSA dogs would be good police dog candidates. Probably most would not because the controlled aggression in the sport is extreme and not consistent with what traits make up a good police dog. I know one breeder whose philosophy is that they would never breed two PSA 3 dogs to each other if they were trying to produce police dogs. That is why KNPV is best suited for selecting and maintaining genetics for police dogs and even it is becoming watered down. E-collars are banned in the Netherlands. It is now illegal to outcross to pitbulls. I know people are still doing those things but it reflects a trend of diluting the strength of the gene pool. One reason for the success of the KNPV program is that historically, the training has been very heavy handed to the point of being abusive with the result of only the strongest dogs getting the PH1 and going on to police work and being bred. In IGP, people will often make whatever accommodations are necessary to get a dog titled when the dog should have been washed out. You are right that for the most part, sport is sport and will never be real life. KNPV comes closest to what a dog will see as a working police dog but additional training is still required. The old style Dutch dogs are fading away in favor of highly social extreme prey and hunt drive dogs, which will likely come back to bite the breeders in the ass. As far as choosing a sport, I also agree that accessibility is a factor. The de-evolution of IGP including the methods of training and the types of dogs selected for has turned me away from the sport. A for other work the GSD can do, what are you referring to? The breed used to be the premiere breed for guide dogs for the blind and that is no longer the case. Service dogs are dominated by Labs. Any non aggressive dog can be a therapy dog. Other than detection and apprehension, what is left? Most any dog with very high prey and hunt drive can do detection work, including drug, explosive, contraband, pipe line leaks, accelerant, cadaver, SAR, etc. There are even dogs used to detect things like citrus canker, termites, pest species, gold ore, cancer, rotten power poles, etc. but they don't need to be GSDs.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> but they don't need to be GSDs.



Does any job require a dog that “needs” to be a gsd?

Police: mals, dutch, mal/ds x, gsd, gsd x, labs, gsp depending on single or dual purpose

Herding: gsd, collies, etc. won’t keep going bc I’m not near enough familiar to name all the herding breeds

Seeing eye for blind:gsd, lab etc etc. 

My point being what is/was the job that NEEDS to be a gsd that you’re referring to? 

Ohh btw, related to the pitbull crossing to mals duco Ii was a bad*** looking dog. I bet it sucked to get bit by him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

The primary use and why the GSD was created is run the fields herding and protecting a flock. Breeding for military or police work is changing the original breed, why is that right and breeding for other uses like a great companion wrong? Personal preference?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I agree with most your last comment. I think there are good dogs in every venue. The fact is, a very small percentage is what we would look for in LE dogs. Dogs are changing, but so are training methods. I agree that we have the most success with KNPV dogs, but I think a lot of that has more to do with the dog culture in Holland. It's a business for them. There is still a LOT of retraining that needs to be done once a KNPV dog gets here before it's street ready. It's funny that same discussion we are having, is going on in Holland right now. The KNPV and Dutch Police program are feuding. Why? Because just like in EVERY other sport, people are breeding for dogs that will score them points. KNPV is getting watered down as well. Has been for a while. 

Circling back to the topic of this thread. For a first time person getting into sport, I would go to what is available to me where I can learn and grow. The foundation I put on LE dogs is the same foundation I put on my sport dogs. I learned that at the first club I ever was a member of. It was a SchH club. Good solid grips, understanding pressure, understanding drives, how to train OB, how to handle, all important skills that can cross over to other venue's. Now not all clubs are created equal. Heck my club now just trained in an old run down movie theater converted into a concert hall, at night in downtown. Yes, my sport club. Why? Well, because I got access to it for the LE dogs and figured why not? My "sport" dogs will only be stronger working in sketchy area's.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

drparker151 said:


> The primary use and why the GSD was created is run the fields herding and protecting a flock. Breeding for military or police work is changing the original breed, why is that right and breeding for other uses like a great companion wrong? Personal preference?



Not entirely accurate. Natural protection and aggression IS and always has been a required trait for the GSD. Max Stephanitz himself is the one who started the move for GSD's in LE and Military work. This started in the early, early stages of the GSD. I mean SchH has been around since the 1920's.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

My point is that sport training should have the greater goal of testing and assessing a dog's genetic traits rather than the greater goal being obtaining a title and/or getting on the podium. Podium dogs are generally not the strongest dogs but are the ones often bred to a lot due to people being misinformed and seeing the pup of an international IGP trial winner as a status symbol. I think it is ironic that IGP, which originally was schutzhund, was the genetic testing ground for the breed and now it has changed and become primarily about titles to the detriment of the breed's genetics. You mentioned that a B&H can tell you something about a dog and I agree. As a test (not a performance) it is meant to see if a dog can do something with confidence that is unnatural for a dog and that is essentially to fight and hold a man with his bark rather than his bite. But it has become a purely prey exercise with the vast majority of dogs barking out of frustration to win the sleeve. IMO, a big part of the problem is that the blind search and B&H are exactly the same every time. It should be mixed up with the dog being required to B&H in different scenarios. Another argument against the exercise is that a dog can hold a man with a silent guard and save a lot of energy.


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## nsfvlada (Apr 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Sooo...now that we've gone off topic to trash showlines and IGP...again....did you get your answer on HOW to find a reputable decoy/helper?


Definitely lots of wonderful info popping up in this thread! Interesting to see things get a bit spicy haha, not about to participate but glad that people care so passionately about their dog sports. From the looks of it I’ll just have to expose myself to as many sport settings as I can and ultimately follow my gut. As for putting bite sports up against each other in this way... truthfully, all I really care about is being able to bond with and work my dog in a safe setting. I’m not relying on her being able to rip someone a new one in a “real” situation, I don’t need or want a PPD. If I can title her, great, if not, as long as she’s benefiting from natural drive fulfillment and not stepping on any toes I don’t really care. If she proves not to benefit from or enjoy any available bite sports, which I’m hitting up first because I’m partial to em, I’m going to look for alternative ways for us to work together. Sorry if I’m bastardizing anyone’s sport, but all I really care about is enjoying life with my dog haha.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

nsfvlada said:


> Definitely lots of wonderful info popping up in this thread! Interesting to see things get a bit spicy haha, not about to participate but glad that people care so passionately about their dog sports. From the looks of it I’ll just have to expose myself to as many sport settings as I can and ultimately follow my gut. As for putting bite sports up against each other in this way... truthfully, all I really care about is being able to bond with and work my dog in a safe setting. I’m not relying on her being able to rip someone a new one in a “real” situation, I don’t need or want a PPD. If I can title her, great, if not, as long as she’s benefiting from natural drive fulfillment and not stepping on any toes I don’t really care. If she proves not to benefit from or enjoy any available bite sports, which I’m hitting up first because I’m partial to em, I’m going to look for alternative ways for us to work together. Sorry if I’m bastardizing anyone’s sport, but all I really care about is enjoying life with my dog haha.



Definitely go watch them all! I was just starting Seger in PSA when this virus shut everything down. I was pretty bummed. He was having fun and it was a whole new world to learn. The decoys I've met so far have been very open and generally discuss mutual clients with each other for training plans and things to work on. I was looking forward to working with Shawn and Janet. Super nice people and great trainers. Maybe I'll get to do it with Faren once she's done with her IGP titles. 

American Schutzhund - look into it. I would be surprised if there was a club near you. It's pretty new and growing.

Just keep in mind that every helper has certain talents. Some are great at tapping into aggression. Some are great at tapping into prey. Some for pulling. Some for presence and guarding. But you want to stay consistent in your foundation work or you will have a very confused dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

nsfvlada said:


> Definitely lots of wonderful info popping up in this thread! Interesting to see things get a bit spicy haha, not about to participate but glad that people care so passionately about their dog sports.



Haha if you think this thread was "spicy", you should go back and read some threads from few plus years ago. Those were fun haha. Truth be told I don't think most of us on here are that far off of each other. Just sometimes comes off that way. I think most of us agree more than we disagree, but on here we tend to pick out the disagreements and harp on those things. When it comes to who's sport is harder, more serious and so on, I try not to get caught up in those. To me it's the "my dad can beat up your dad" arguments. I have better things to do haha. Not to mention that argument basically means genetics don't play a roll. When in reality, either the dog can do XYZ or it can't. 

One of my favorite quotes: 
"That word "SPORT" always means competition for he highest, that is true, but this competition reaches it's high-water mark in "exhibitions", which, just because they demand no real capabilities lead people only too easily astray."- Max Stephanitz


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pretty much. Just watch and learn. Always keeping in mind that YOU are your dog's advocate. If you think something is unfair or you don't like how something is done - speak up. And have fun. If you and your dog are not having fun then you are doing the wrong thing. This stuff is hard. It takes dedication and time and money. I often have to rethink why I'm in the sport to keep myself grounded.


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