# Making Retrieves



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Another training discussion. How do you make retrieves? What are the advantages and disadvantages to your method? Do you use special equipment (table, box, etc.)?


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

OK. A lot of views and no replies. Perhaps the topic is too broad, there are quite a few aspects to the retrieve. So let me narrow it down. How do you teach the dog to hold the dumbell calmly and firmly? At what point do you do this; is it the first thing you train or do you worry about it after the dog is retrieving the dumbell?


----------



## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Hi Art.. there was a thread a while ago on "forced retrieve" it was a good decision. Maybe I'll try to find that.

I teach the "hold" separate with a dowel with a string attached keeping pressure so that the dog must hold firmly or he'll receive a slight correction if he drops it or I can pull it out of his mouth. I've used all motivational training with my retrieves in the beginning of teaching the different parts of the retrieve. This exercise broken down has multiple parts.

Hold
Pick Up
Retrieve
Presentation (front)
Speed

I'm going to look for that other thread/discussion.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Art,

We use the pond...


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lynn_PHi Art.. there was a thread a while ago on "forced retrieve" it was a good decision. Maybe I'll try to find that.
> 
> I teach the "hold" separate with a dowel with a string attached keeping pressure so that the dog must hold firmly or he'll receive a slight correction if he drops it or I can pull it out of his mouth. I've used all motivational training with my retrieves in the beginning of teaching the different parts of the retrieve. This exercise broken down has multiple parts.
> 
> ...


I teach this in the same way, right now we are still working on presentation (getting that nice front sit, Stark tends to sit to the side a bit) and speed (he likes to take his time... haha).


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: elisabeth_00117
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Lynn_PHi Art.. there was a thread a while ago on "forced retrieve" it was a good decision. Maybe I'll try to find that.
> ...


How are his fronts without the dumbell? Flash is just my first dog and all but I'm a firm believer in "don't even think about fronts with a dumbell unless the dog is 110% perfect without the dumbell".


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

He does great without the dumbell!

Nice and straight, close to me (nose almost touching my stomach), fast and accurate.. with the dumbell, he sits off to the side and a bit further back from where I want him. I am constantly straightening him up before I command him to auss the dumbell. Not sure if he is getting side tracked with the dumbell or what, he doesn't do this with when we use his ball or tug rope either, so not sure what's going on.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

My dogs retrieves were taught motivationally.. 

First building drive for the dumbbell, to where my dogs were racing out and snatching the dumbbell up, then teaching the hold separately (I used their dumbbell for this), once they understood what the hold was, I gradually pieced it all together..


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: elisabeth_00117
> .........Nice and straight, close to me (nose almost touching my stomach), fast and accurate.. with the dumbell, he sits off to the side and a bit further back from where I want him. I am constantly straightening him up before I command him to auss the dumbell.


Did you work the hold in the front position? How do you straighten him before asking him to out?


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

What do you mean work the hold in the front position? Like use this as a sepearte training manuver? Just have him hold the dumbell in the front until he get's it?

I'm new so I have been basically learning as I go, reading, researching and watching videos. My trainer and I have been doing the front's, heels, retrieves with a ball or tug, not the dumbell, I think maybe because it is heavier than the others?

I will work on just the hold in the front position.

When I straighten him up, I usually lure him in with my hands (or a treat). I can get him to straighten up with just bringing my hands towards myself (does this make sense?).


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgMy dogs retrieves were taught motivationally..
> 
> First building drive for the dumbbell, to where my dogs were racing out and snatching the dumbbell up, then teaching the hold separately (I used their dumbbell for this), once they understood what the hold was, I gradually pieced it all together..


Oh, he races out to get the dumbell, it's the coming back that is slow. I even encouraged him by running backwards, trying to get him to run faster. Calling things out to him, etc.. 

I think I need to stop teaching this all together and maybe break up the steps until he understands what I want from each position?


----------



## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

> Quote: I think I need to stop teaching this all together and maybe break up the steps until he understands what I want from each position?


I would agree with this 100%. I see too many people trying to put it all together before the dog knows all parts. Back chaining these exercises once you start putting them together is the way I like to train. It keeps the "communication" between dog/handler clearer, IMO.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

What would you recommend doing first? The hold?


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@Elisabeth,

A few things for you to consider. 

1. What position is the dog in when you out the dumbell? The front I am guessing.

2. What reason does the dog have to return to you quickly? You teach him to like the dumbell so he goes out to it quickly but when he has it what incetive is there for him to return quickly when he knows you are just going to take it from him? 

I would recomend teaching the "hold" first. I do not use the dumbell for this. Someone mentioned using a dowel, this is ok but I like to use a short length of 1" PVC pipe.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark is in the front position when I out the dumbell.

As for the incetive, I use a few things, first being treats, second being a release and a quick tug game (his favorite), when I use other things, such as a ball or a tug rope, I usually don't need to reward as he is excited for me to throw it again, be released to retrieve and bring it back for more, that is his reward, he gets super excited with the other things, just not the dumbell. I have tried really getting him to play with it, love it, and want it, but he doesn't seem as interested in it?

I have a piece of PVC pipe that I can use, I will try this!

Thanks!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The reason I ask about what you do when in front is because anything negative with the dumbbell in front can cause conflict with the handler. This conflict usually shows itself as chewing or not wanting to sit closely or straight. Just something to consider.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I also teach the hold first. I use a dowel and then switch to a PVC pipe.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I haven't done anything negative, all of his training is positive reinforecemnt. I want him to have fun and learn, not worried about getting 'corrected' if he doesn't do it on the first try.

I think our problem is grouping this all together first, I think I need to make these into steps then when I know he has perfected them, put them all together.

I am going to try this tomorrow and see how it goes. We will work on the hold first with the pipe since I have that here already.

Does anyone have any videos of their training I can 'cheat' off of?


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@ Elisabeth,
At this point I would only work on the "hold", by whatever method you choose to do that. I would, however, make drive for the dumbell without ever letting him get it. 

Also, the dumbell is not a toy. Do not let him play with it like a ball. If you want to do motivational retrieves that is fine. But you need to make drive for the dumbell, not try to introduce it as a play object.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I only have video of the finished product. Years ago I had video of a motivational retrieve, the one I used for Treue. Unfortunately the tape quit working.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: [email protected] Elisabeth,
> At this point I would only work on the "hold", by whatever method you choose to do that. I would, however, make drive for the dumbell without ever letting him get it.
> 
> Also, the dumbell is not a toy. Do not let him play with it like a ball. If you want to do motivational retrieves that is fine. But you need to make drive for the dumbell, not try to introduce it as a play object.


Usually the training objects such as a certain tug he really likes, or a ball he LOVES to play with are only used for rewards after training, same with the dumbell. I think I need to get him more 'excited' about the dumbell, I think I may take some of the advice you guys have given me and try it out!


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I always enjoy watching this video!! And I believe this dog was take all motivationally.... Enjoy.. 









Retrieve Work..


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Leesa,

You know as well as anyone how much I dislike motivational retrieves, however, when it is as well thought out and trained how it was in that video, I can not, as much as I would like to, take anything away. I might also add, as much as I hate to admit, your dog has a fantastic retrieve, despite the fact that it was done entirely motivationaly. None the less, I still believe that a forced retrieve has many advantages to those trained entirley by motivation. Not the least of those advantages is that the dog, because of the retrive, learns what compulsion means, thus you are able to use compulsion in many exercises. To me the retrieve creates a "base line" from which everything else can be based.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

And I understand that not all dogs will respond to a motivational retrieve.. 

I find this video to be an inspiration.. More so because I do train motivationally.. Or at least for now.. May be different when I get my next dog..


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm training the retrieve by breaking it down into parts like Lynn listed and also backchaining for the hold part as illustrated in the video clip. I do not know how to trained a forced retrieve. I have nothing against it, just don't have the experience with it and my current dog retrieves quite naturally.


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lies,
I like a natural retriever. However, I make a lot of pressure for the "hold". What ends up happening is this: You intend to make "hold" and have the dog retrieve through drive. However, as soon as the the dog retrives through drive, and then you say "hold", because of the pressure associated with "hold" the dog no longer wants to retrieve the dumbell. So then it is a matter of MAKING the dog retrieve.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Anka has a retrieve I am very proud of. I think a lot of it has to do with the inital foundation work that was done with her for playing. 

From a very young age, when playing fetch, she was always encouraged to run back with her ball and body slam me and then we would tug. So in her retrieve she actually picks up speed on the return. I rarely out her from the front. I made drive for the dumbbell and used it as a reward, for heeling, etc. and let her bite and carry it. As she was carrying it, I might ask for a "here" and she would come into position. I taught the hold as a seperate exercise. 

Of course the obvious drawbacks to a prey based retrieve are chewing and posession. 

We taught the hold on the ball first and then transferred it to the dumbbell. We did need some pressure to ensure the hold, but never really combined it with the retrieve exercise until the hold was solid on her ball. So it never seemed to interfere with the speed of her retrieve. She's also naturally pretty compliant. And we circumvented possession with the return play behavior we taught her. 

We waited until she had a clean drivey front out in protection and let that training bleed over into her obedience. So she outs the dumbbell like she would the sleeve. Used sit or Hier to keep her from slamming me. If she looked like she was going to bobble it I used the hold command. 

Then it was just a question of using multiple commands and streamlining it down into a single command. Is it absolutely perfect always? No. Her pick up technique could be a little better. She tends to regrip it once or twice to better situate it for the return and sometimes she bumps me on the front...but on the whole I am very happy with the result. She's quick out and back and has minimal movement of the dumbbell, and is very happy and enthusiastic in her retrieve.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgI always enjoy watching this video!! And I believe this dog was take all motivationally.... Enjoy..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was GREAT!!!

Thank you, this really makes me see what I need to correct. I think I know what I have to do now.. I will keep working on it and post a video tomorrow (if I can get one in the daylight.. haha) to get some critiques.

This is the very first time I am training a dog to do something other than, sit/stay, come, etc.. so I am VERY new. Video's like this, that break it down and make it easier to understand by seeing it done help soooo much!

Thanks again!


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

That's the thing I am not understanding with Stark. 

He is GREAT with the ball and/or tug, but once we switch the dumbell, goodbye everything we were just doing perfectly!

I think I need to make the dumbell more "fun"? Make him "want it" more? Or could it be that it is too heavy for him so he is not excited about holding it and bringing it back as fast as possible???

I'm new so I am grasping at straws.


----------

