# Javir Marda Talka-V54



## cliffson1

It appears that Javir, (2008 BSP), placed V 54 at the German Seiger Show for conformation. This dog won the national Sch trial in 2008 in Germany. He also had a progeny group paraded in the show that received an over the top ovation. Though, many people wanted him to go higher because of his genetic importance, STILL this is a major step in the right direction in Germany. Bravo for them!!


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## gagsd

Very neat and a nice looking dog.
Do you happen to have any links to video of him and/or his progeny?

---Never mind, found vids on my own


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## Andaka

Please post them here so the rest of us can see.


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## gagsd

Not sure if you need a membership to view the videos, but here is a link..... http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/37820/Javir-vom-Talka-Marda
and progeny can be seen as well under "children."


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## Liesje

Kudos! Though I am slightly disappointed, after the rumors that he would go high V. I'm not really pleased (or surprised) by this year's results, but this is a highlight!


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## Andaka

Thanks.


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## gagsd

Cliff (or anyone),
What do you think Javir's "genetic importance" is? 

I see that he has Fero through both Timmy and Troll (good conformation?), and has Ira Korbelbach on the very bottom (which I have heard is good for bringing in strong aggression and maybe a good balance with the Fero lines?).

But I'd love to hear thoughts from someone with experience.
Thanks!!


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## cliffson1

His genetic importance is much more geared toward showlines where all the dogs go back to Canto/Quanto/a little Mutz. These dogs need to have genetic diversity brought in that does not go through Canto/Quanto in particular. Fero through Timmy and Troll are very much in many workinglines either individually or linebreeding. The difference in showlines is that the dogs are "backmassed" on Canto/Quanto. If you go back 32 lines in a showline dog 24 to 28 of these lines would go back to Cant/Quanto with an occaisional Mutz. This is just too too much backmassing, if you keep inbreeding on so few dogs, for this long, then you get an increase in health issues and temperament suffers. Javir will bring in a breath of fresh air and lines that are not remotely related to these three. Strength of character will improve(if you keep going in that direction) and don't go back to the same recipe after one breeding. JMO


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## gagsd

That makes sense... do you think showline people would take their dogs to him? 
To me, just looking at videos, his structure has similarities to a "showdog."


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## Liesje

I would be very interested to see the results of such breedings, but I ride a lot of fences and have my hand in a lot of cookie jars









Just based on recent threads here, I would not be surprised if such breedings never happened. The show line people don't want to sacrifice their type, the working line people don't want to sacrifice their genetics. Would show line people sacrifice their pride? Would working line people take the breeding seriously?


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## cliffson1

Probably not, the showline people don't want sacrifice their type and working people don't want to introduce that concentrated show blood with the concentrated weaknesses in character and drive. The way I see it, is a good workingline will pretty much always produce good temperament and sometimes show structure. A good showline will sometime produce good temperament and sometime good structure. People forget that many puppies in a show litter will not have V conformation. Could be because of teeth, testicles, size, structure, or temperament. Whereas most dogs in a workingline will have good character and some may have V structure. But most will be able to do what they were bred for. So I see very few show people usinf Javir except those with low V rated dogs, with good work ethic.JMO


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## Liesje

"The way I see it, is a good workingline will pretty much always produce good temperament and sometimes show structure."

Clif, do you mean that breeding a show line to a good working line, the working line will still pass on the non-aesthetic traits?

Do you think these crosses would be valuable and are worth trying? Is there anything of value that a show line would bring to a working line? (or does my last question assume that all show lines are totally worthless in the work...?)


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## cliffson1

what I am saying is that you breed for working temperament and you show the ones that have the structure. You can breed working to show, but i would keep breeding the result to working until I unsaturated the gentic buildup in the showlines. Most people who want to show don't want to do that. So I really have no answer because I don't beleive in "showlines", I only believe in German shepherds that cn work who may incidentally have show conformation.


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## lhczth

> Quote:I only believe in German shepherds that cn work who may incidentally have show conformation.


Agree to a point. I believe in German Shepherd Dogs that can work who have correct conformation.







The current "show" conformation is not conducive to work.


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## cliffson1

Ahhh Lisa, We agree but you said it from another perspective. In today's climate to be a breeder that is continuing the tradition of the breed, you would breed for working structure and working temperament and SHOW the pets in the litter. After all if you really inverse your thinking and look at the real situation today, you will find that show breeding IS pet breeding. These dogs don't have real working structure anymore, it is cosmetic structure based on important items that often have little impact on the working aspect of the breed. This is how we lost our way in the first place!!
So Lisa, we definitely agree on this aspect. The sadness is that dogs like Javir should be flocked to because he has correct working structure, correct standard structure, and correct temperament. He is out of a litter in which at least FIVE of them also had these kind of attributes so you see he is not a fluke...This is important!! Yet the conformation experts will not breed to him, except in token cases. Another opportunity missed!


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## khawk

Hey guys, here's a pie in the sky idea for you--no dog could be shown in conformation until it is at least 2 years old and has cleared all its health tests and at least one temperament test and has at least one 'title' in a performance venue, titles to count as points towards a championship, as would certifications such as passing the police dog test, 3 points and public access service dog test, 3 points or being certified for therapy work, 2 points. Say, Sch 1, 1 point, Sch2, 2 points, Sch3, 3 points, td, 1 point, tdx 2 points, vst 3 points, cd, 1 point, cdx, 2 points, ud 3 points, hgh levels the same, with points for agility and rally o as well. 15 points over all make a champion the same as akc conformation, BUT no dog can get a championship in conformation only--say at least 6 of the 15 points must come from performance and ALL dogs must pass some form of temperament test to be eligible to compete, just as they must pass health certs-- What do you say? Would-could something like this change things? A little? Think about it. khawk


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## Liesje

I don't think that would work b/c of money. Even someone like me that just shows dogs for fun would probably find something else to do, I would never register for the organizations or the shows, they would never make any money off show entries. On one hand I find conformation dumb and ridiculous but on the other hand it is a social event for me and my dog. I like traveling around and going on road trips, so it gives me an excuse to do that, hang out with "dog friends" I don't otherwise get to see, and I think it's good for my dog to get used to traveling and new environments with crowds and other dogs.

Also I personally do not think the working class should be 2 years old, or at least have the open class at Sieger shows. I can't believe how many people are so obsessed with rushed titling to get their dog in the working class ASAP. I tell this story all the time but it still pisses me off - I was at a show and a really nice bitch was in the open class. The judge asked why this dog was not in the working class and they said they were still training towards her titles. Instead of saying "oh, good job, take your time and do it right" the judge huffed and rolled his eyes at them.

Personally I think the working class should be 3+ years and the open class should be a normal class that counts like everything else. Also, the working class dogs should WORK meaning if they want a V-rating then they should have V-rated SchH scores from a trial within a given timeframe (like 3 months of the show or whatever). Some people would like to have the performance test replaced with an entire trial which would suit me fine but then the larger events that already take 4-5 days would take weeks.

But I also agree with Cliff that it's not really the way the show is done that needs to change if things are to be turned around. The breeding and the dogs need to change. I like both working and show dogs, I have one of each and plan to just flip flop each time I obtain a new dog, so my next dog will be a working line dog and I will still show him/her just like I show my show line dog, because it's a fun social event for me but not because I think it even means anything anymore, sadly.


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## Samba

A dog who is V in conformation and consistent V in the work, that is all I want. There are correctly conformed working dogs so I am not so interested in trying to get correctly working show dogs, but I would appreciate one that was good.

Heaven forbid the working dogs enter that show environment/culture to any great degree. I would applaud it if there was a major mindset change, maybe.

Conformation shows used to be where you showed your working dogs, now it is where you work your show dogs. Breeding a dog for show is just that to me, "for show".

I realize those who make this their hobby or profession probably won't get with me at all.


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## Grum_Majestat

They never used Timo and that was the reason they put him VA. Trying to get Showlines to go to a sable is like pulling teeth. JMO


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## GSDBESTK9

How funny, I was going through this dog's pictures and came upon this one, can you see who is in the crowd???








http://wdcontent02.working-dog.eu/Te8ZZOFxpnVsObS-TgIWuYo8EJUcvcoBJbJQUJ5OqEE,.jpg


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## Castlemaid

Is that you taking pics in the lower right hand?


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## GSDBESTK9

Yep!! LOL


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## Castlemaid

Haha! Hard to miss that bright red hair! 

And the camera was also a good clue.


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