# Have sports lost their purpose?



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

What are your thoughts on the current status of our protection sports? Yes this is in the SchH/IPO/IGP/QXZY sub forum, but this discussion can and should include all bite sports. Are the sports still a test of the breed? Are they still testing genetics? Have using sports as a breed requirement run it’s course? I’ll give my thoughts later.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I can’t speak for other sports, but for schutzhund I would say it is headed in that direction. The protection aspect of schutzhund is repetitive and tends towards being predictable. Decoys often hide behind the same blind, the bite is in the same location (arm), and little pressure is applied to the dog compared to other sports. Even stick hits are under fire. 

The results can be seen in past recorded competitions with less-than-motivated showlines (and working lines though I’ve only seen them at club level) and with dogs who outright flinch.

Unless you have a decoy who purposefully adds pressure, difficulty and variation for the dog, it seems like one of the best sports to “train until you fake it” for the lower levels.

That being said, I still enjoy the sport 🙂


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think fundamentally, the purpose of a breed test and a sport are different. A sport is about competition. When you look at competition and fairness, you need objective criteria. When you create more objective criteria, it makes it easier to train for. I think a lot of the testing that came from the breed tests of the past have been surpassed by training techniques. That is magnified by specific criteria. I would say basically all bite sports test genetics as there’s are many dogs that can’t do them. I don’t think that the sport titles alone tell you the dog is breed worthy or explain the character of the dog. Just seeing tells a lot. Knowing the difference between training and genetics helps a lot. Seeing a dog trained tells you more than just the final picture.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

It’s funny I was just reading an old thread on here about sport dog vs working dog. Working dogs vs. Sport dogs

I feel there may be some spill over, I don’t know much about protection sports, other than I am currently looking to do more with my dog and a trainer I’m going to is FR decoy and trains for that, so I’ll just get my popcorn.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

@Bearshandler, I pretty much agree with everything you said. I guess I still think sports are supposed to tell us about the dog. We still tell new prospective buyers to look for titled dogs and so fourth. However at this point, I don’t think sports say anything other than the breeder does stuff with their dog (if they’re the ones who actually put the titles on). Training techniques have gotten so good, that everyone just games the system. I think of a simple B&H exercise. It was originally meant to show aggression. How it’s just become a game taught with balls. Look at the most common technique being used now. Helper in the blind, dog comes in bark, bark, bark, and helper throws a pillow out of the blind with the opposite hand of the sleeve, dog leaves the helper to get the toy. Why is this technique being used? Because dogs were losing points for barking at the sleeve? Why were dogs barking at the sleeve? Maybe some because they’ve been rewarded in the blind with a bite. My opinion is that it’s because the dogs aren’t in the correct drive. But we don’t work dogs like that anymore. So then, what is the B&H telling us about the dog anymore? Basically we condition the dogs to everything they’re going to see on a sport field. Even in PSA with surprise scenarios. Are they really a surprise? For the most part we know what the scenarios are, and it’s just a matter of which one we get on that day. So what do people do? Train all of them. So once again, we’ve conditioned the dogs to that specific situation. I have a lot more to say, but I went off on a tangent and now my brain isn’t working lol. Not enough sleep or coffee yet this morning.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I think Schutzhund can tell someone a lot about a dog, their drives and thresholds, etc. That is extremely useful for a breeder to match appropriately. So I would still want a breeder that titles, preferably handler owner trained. 
Maybe some can watch a dog’s performance and see details about a dog, I only see training.

I do think it’s important to keep in mind that even if the breed test has become twisted by the competition, no other breed has a performance standard like GSDs do (to my knowledge).


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

i've stepped away from schutzhund but from the beginning I thought of it as a sport, not a trial to test a dog's working aptitude. I do applaud those trying to get American Schutzhund off the ground. It is geared more toward things that working dogs likely to do. 
That being said, if a new handler is interested in IGP/schutzhund, just learning how to complete the BH will teach them so much about communicating with their dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think that the sport titles alone tell you the dog is breed worthy or explain the character of the dog. Just seeing tells a lot. Knowing the difference between training and genetics helps a lot. Seeing a dog trained tells you more than just the final picture.


From an outsider looking in this is what I think also.Watching training in sports and other venues allows one to see temperment and character. Are they wanting to or capable of doing the work.


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Schutzhund is now a sport more than a breed test. 
That being said, what would a modern day breed test look like today?


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm still a newbie, so what I say comes with many grains of salt. But here goes: 

I do spend almost every Saturday hanging around with people who have been in the sport, either on and off, or constantly on, for decades. 
Most of the old vets don't seem keen on the direction of the protection work, including the apparent proposal to eliminate stick hits.

One club officer who was a former judge has also mentioned that he does not favor the exaggerated, "prancy" heel, and what he does like to see is a dog err on the side of power and speed. 
So for instance, if the dog came back to its handler from a down in motion with real power and speed, he's not apt to fault them much if they bumped the handle on the return.

We had a club trial earlier this year. The actual judge was a big fan of figure skating.  So he said, and so he acted. If a dog formed a "pretty picture" in their mind, it was about three quarters of the way home, and got by with a lot. Got by with, for instance, not biting off the transport, and either standing or sitting when they were supposed to down (either on the send out, or a down in motion, I forget. . . But it happened, and this dog finished with high score. BTW, neither of our two dogs were in a 1, 2 or 3 trial, so this is not sour grapes, just an observation, but an observation from someone who thinks a GSD ought to be more like a hockey player, less like a figure skater.

Same judge talked about how he liked to see the dog really work to impede the decoy, not just go for a ride.
What he said did not seem to align with how he scored things. Again, not sour grapes, or at least not mine. It was other club members who were doing protection work. 

All that said, I do think the Schutzhund training has been good for our dogs. It has channeled some of their drives, helped us to understand them better.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

mycobraracr said:


> My opinion is that it’s because the dogs aren’t in the correct drive.


This would be a good discussion if it has not been gone over too much before. I am new to the concepts, but I’ve been told prey is easier on the dog to maintain while defense/fight is more taxing but shows higher power and aggression. If I am wrong or missing something please correct me.

It seems to me that a dog in protection should be able to switch between drives and work while in both, rather than stay in one (prey) or the other. That’s where I think I am seeing a lack. If protection is nothing but a practiced game for the dog, they have no need to fight back. There is no opportunity for the dog to show off it’s courage, or to show real aggression under control.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

@mycobraracr I can understand that sentiment. The issue is twofold however. One it’s impossible to make one test that says a dogs character is this, and make it broad enough to cover everything the breed needs to be. The other is if you give me any test and say this is what I’m judging the dog on, then I can train to make the dog look how I want. We had a concept in nuke school called training to the test. You train to the job not the test. Anyone who knows the questions that are going to be on the test is going to train to the test. You can’t make a fair and standard evaluation without having a set bank of what they need to do. The problem is you want to test the genetics of the dog, not the training necessarily. It’s hard to separate. I think the bigger issue is you need to see the dog work, see the dog train, and see the dog outside of those bounds to get the full picture.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The other portion I’ll say is there is a reason I tell people to look for titled dogs. For starters, I’ve see the dogs that can’t do sports or struggle with sports. Those are dogs I want know part of and would never reccomend to someone else. Trust me, it’s never because the dog is too much. I’ve seen people send dogs back for different ones. I’ve never seen someone quite because they dog was too much for the sport. I’ve seen them quit because they couldn’t handle the type of dog that excels in sports. They also couldn’t handle the type of dogs that excel in any working venue. The other part is this. A great teacher I know had just explained to someone why their dog wasn’t breed worthy. A paraphrase of what he said to me. “Could you title the dog? Yes. We’ve done it with less. But why would you want to? If you ever see me out there with a dog, that’s a bad dog. Best believe he’s the real deal.” That mentality is the difference between a lot of competitors and breeders. I’d be extremely wary of what’s sold by people who don’t title the dogs and their reasons for it. For titles say is how the dog was tested. If the breeder isn’t doing sports, how are they testing the dogs? The answer 98% of the time has been they don’t or what they do to test the dog is less than what sports would.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Generically I think sports are good. It gets people out there, pushes training and so on. The innovation that comes from it is amazing. As to any kind of validation for the breed, I’m not so sure anymore. SchH was designed to be a breed test. However now days I see more titled dogs fail real test than they pass. I test a decent amount of dogs these days. I’ve personally seen dogs that people drool over on a field literally crap themselves on our basic police dog test. I don’t really think it shows a lot of the dogs temperament. So much is masked by training and conditioning the dogs. Judge preferences definitely play a role. I’ve decided I will not do decoy or helper work for anymore trials. I’m just sick of the judging, thoughts on dogs and so on. I worked one trial for a club that asked me to. I ran a dog, but if you look at the dogs score sheet/book, it says pulled for injury. Not a chance. I didn’t appreciate that judge very much. I came home and threw my decoy/helper book for that sport in the trash. I’m not going to play games. Telling me one thing for one dog, then a dog from the judges friends club comes on and telling me to do something else. In a different sport, I had been running most dogs in the last few trials I had worked. I had dogs get passed because as the dog pops off, I’d take a couple steps to show the dog was being ran, judge wouldn’t call it, so I stopped. Dog re-engaged, so I’d start driving again, dog would pop off rinse and repeat. The judge never called it and told me to keep running the dog until he said. Why? I don’t need to break a dog to show it wasn’t ready. That judge wanted to literally run the dog off the field. Instead that dog earned its title. I’ve seen this type of stuff time and time again in multiple sports. So at the end of the day what do titles mean? What are the sports actually doing to preserve the breed?

I also feel that sport is pushing for certain traits moving the breed in that direction. To use the analogy from earlier, figure skaters earn more points. So people will start breeding for more figure skaters, competitors will only buy figure skaters which means the dogs being bred are figure skaters. So the breed as a whole shifts.

I think I’m done rambling for now lol. Trying to put a coherent thought together and type while also trying to work client dogs is not easy haha .


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

You are absolutely correct. I agree. The hard part is, people/breeders buying into the titles. I’ve contacted plenty of stud owners who when I ask them to tell me about their dog just start rambling off titles. I didn’t ask about titles I asked about til he dog.

I also agree that 98% of people breeding dogs are probably dogs that should not be bred. I think at the end of the day when looking for breeders, it comes down to the breeder itself and not titles. That does make it very hard for new people to the breed to weed out breeders they shouldn’t go to I know.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The judging games can and are very frustrating. I don’t think it means the same when the test is lessened. I wouldn’t care so much if they were random club people who understood that the dogs weren’t breedworthy. Too often I see those dogs that slide by taughted by breeders as studs or foundation females. It’s why I don’t trust it when I see highly used studs with no video of their work.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

mycobraracr said:


> You are absolutely correct. I agree. The hard part is, people/breeders buying into the titles. I’ve contacted plenty of stud owners who when I ask them to tell me about their dog just start rambling off titles. I didn’t ask about titles I asked about til he dog.
> 
> I also agree that 98% of people breeding dogs are probably dogs that should not be bred. I think at the end of the day when looking for breeders, it comes down to the breeder itself and not titles. That does make it very hard for new people to the breed to weed out breeders they shouldn’t go to I know.


This is an incredibly frustrating conversation. I don’t need you to read the paper to me. I can look that. It was refreshing talking to some breeders here recently who were very open and actually told me about the dogs. I think the biggest issue is honesty. From everyone involved. But the breeders especially.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The work does shape the dog. With schutzhund and German shepherds, it’s judge preferences, chasing perfection in points, and the training. I think there are traits they aren’t needed to be successful in sport so they aren’t bred for. If you aren’t breeding for something you are breeding against it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

.


Bearshandler said:


> I think the biggest issue is honesty. From everyone involved. But the breeders especially.



This^^^^ All. Day. Long.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

How can it be a breed standard test if multiple dog breeds can pass it? To me it seems more like a test of certain dog characteristics, which exist in some breeds and not others. If those characteristics are important to a breed, and a dog from that breed does well in the game, then it must be a good one of w/e breed it is.

A true GSD breed standard test should be a test only GSDs can pass and no other breed. That would be fun to come up with.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sonny1984 said:


> How can it be a breed standard test if multiple dog breeds can pass it? To me it seems more like a test of certain dog characteristics, which exist in some breeds and not others. If those characteristics are important to a breed, and a dog from that breed does well in the game, then it must be a good one of w/e breed it is.
> 
> A true GSD breed standard test should be a test only GSDs can pass and no other breed. That would be fun to come up with.



Why would a similar breed not be able to pass it? Any breed that has been bred for a similar job should be able to do this. Mal's, Dutchies, even Beaucerons should be able to do this sport. I'm lost on how you could possibly separate them. Of course this is testing certain dog characteristics. That's the point. Those characteristics that are supposed to be in our breed. Why does it matter if those also exist in some other breeds?

And anyone who has ever seen a Rottie, Dobe, Boxer, Cane Corso, GS, train will tell you that the drives that need to be developed are not the same at all. These breeds often struggle in this sport. So just because another breed can pass it does not make in invalid for the German Shepherd Breed.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Bearshandler said:


> This is an incredibly frustrating conversation. I don’t need you to read the paper to me. I can look that. It was refreshing talking to some breeders here recently who were very open and actually told me about the dogs. I think the biggest issue is honesty. From everyone involved. But the breeders especially.


1000%! My favorite breeders I’ve worked with and talked to went something like this; Hi can you tell me about your dogs? Sure, first let me start with what I don’t like about them.

So refreshing! No dog is perfect. Tell me what you don’t like and let me decide if it’s worth the risk to me or not, or if those things you don’t like are even a big deal to me. Sometimes it’s not.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Not sure if this is relevant but i am curious, in its origins was there always a point system? Or was it just pass fail format? (Sch/ipo/igp)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carter Smith said:


> Not sure if this is relevant but i am curious, in its origins was there always a point system? Or was it just pass fail format? (Sch/ipo/igp)




Good question. I do believe there were dogs placed over others even at the beginning for the characteristics desired.






Historical German Shepherd Sieger list and photographs


The Bunderssieger Zuchtschau is held every year in Germany, presented here is a list of the winners...



www.angesgardiens.ca






that really is the basis for all things that go downhill. People judge to their own bias, whether intentional or not, and breeders/handlers breed/train the dogs to win based on that bias. Humans and Egos ruin everything.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Good question. I do believe there were dogs placed over others even at the beginning for the characteristics desired.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So did female dogs not exist until the mid 40’s? Lol..

thats interesting thanks for sharing


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