# Sable Show Lines?



## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

While reading countless threads on this board I first discovered that WGSL’s can be sable. I always loved sable shepherds, but preferred the looks and temperaments of German show line dogs (I also don’t do any extreme sports/events with my dogs so I don’t think I would be best suited for a working line). It seems like they are pretty rare, and not many US breeders have sables in their lines or breeding stock. While I am not looking for another dog, I’ve been trying to find some reputable WGSL breeders in the US with (patterned?) sables. 

Does anyone have good examples of sable WGSL’s or breeders with them?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@dogfaeries has a beautiful sable sl. Maybe she'll have more info.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ASL have sables.

I have never seen a WGSL as a sable. Since that is a dominant color and for generations they have been black/red then someone bred a working line in there. I have seen the dominant black WGSL, or should be Russian show lines. Can you please provide a pedigree for these WGSL sables?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Hey! My pretty sable girl is American show line. (Actual show dog, lol). Sables are very common in ASLs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't do any official sports with Deja, who is definitely a WL. But we have property and I keep her busy with all kinds of stuff that is integrated in her day. It's a great diet plan!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

While I’m not around people with German show lines, I don’t ever recall seeing a photo of a sable one.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think kennel von lotta had sable wgsl’s. I remember seeing a female pup on fb. I actually looked into this kennel and they have some nice dogs, when I was looking at wgsls a while back. Sable wgsl are not common but they are out there. Wgsl are more of a patterned sable and not the dark sable you so often see.

a few sable west German showline quite a few actually pups- von Lotta -

https://m.facebook.com/Kennels-von-Lotta-German-Shepherds-106540179206/






Netzer von Lotta


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Netzer von Lotta




www.pedigreedatabase.com





I have Max a male American showlines sable. There are many sables in American showlines patterns and dark sables. Max is up there in drive and super smart he of tons of fun. I’m active he keeps me active and always learning different things.






































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http://instagr.am/p/CPb0hBHBCLE/


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Yes, there is Sables in WGSL. Margman dogs have Sable in them. Most famous are Timo and Torston. Valerie at Centennial GSD's in Colorado just had a frozen semen bred litter with several sables, but the litter was already spoken for. She's got a couple young beautiful Sables.


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## Holde (Aug 21, 2021)

As noted above sable WGSLs do exist. They are in the minority but there are breeders keeping those genetics in play.

von Arlett is a WGSL kennel in Germany which has produced several V rated sable WGSLs over the years. 

More info here- 






Der graue Schäferhund - "Museumsstück" ?


Informationen über die Zuchtstätte für Deutsche Schäferhunde von Arlett




www.arlett.de


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It should be obvious that the people who run the SV don't like sable dogs, and this is why there are so few sable showlines: every showline breeder hopes to have a Sieger some day, and they know it won't happen if their dog is sable. Not since the days of the Martin brothers deciding black and red was the only correct color for a GSD.

When Timo was chosen as VA2, the judge kept switching him back and forth with the dog eventually picked as Sieger. Every time he move Timo up to the front, the crowd booed loudly. 

After the show was over, Koos Hassing (van Tiekerhook Kennels) asked Peter Messler (SV president) when a sable dog was going to be chosen as Sieger. Messler replied "Not while I'm president of the SV!"


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> ASL have sables.
> 
> I have never seen a WGSL as a sable. Since that is a dominant color and for generations they have been black/red then someone bred a working line in there. I have seen the dominant black WGSL, or should be Russian show lines. Can you please provide a pedigree for these WGSL sables?


I’ve been trying to find the old posts but now I’m struggling to find them! Von Lotta sounded familiar so I’ll try to find a pedigree through there and share it.


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't do any official sports with Deja, who is definitely a WL. But we have property and I keep her busy with all kinds of stuff that is integrated in her day. It's a great diet plan!


After seeing so many awesome working lines here I definitely want one in the future, so it’s something to work towards!


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

mnm said:


> Yes, there is Sables in WGSL. Margman dogs have Sable in them. Most famous are Timo and Torston. Valerie at Centennial GSD's in Colorado just had a frozen semen bred litter with several sables, but the litter was already spoken for. She's got a couple young beautiful Sables.


Margman is familiar so maybe that’s what I was thinking of? A lot of them were what seem to be “patterned sables” and reminded me of a mix between the average sable and a black and tan saddle most WGSL have. It seemed so unique that’s why I was drawn to them!


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> It should be obvious that the people who run the SV don't like sable dogs, and this is why there are so few sable showlines: every showline breeder hopes to have a Sieger some day, and they know it won't happen if their dog is sable. Not since the days of the Martin brothers deciding black and red was the only correct color for a GSD.
> 
> When Timo was chosen as VA2, the judge kept switching him back and forth with the dog eventually picked as Sieger. Every time he move Timo up to the front, the crowd booed loudly.
> 
> After the show was over, Koos Hassing (van Tiekerhook Kennels) asked Peter Messler (SV president) when a sable dog was going to be chosen as Sieger. Messler replied "Not while I'm president of the SV!"


Wow, I never would’ve known that! Maybe someday a sable will get a win haha.


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

Went in the Margman website, and this seems to be what I was thinking of.






Margman Flamme


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Margman Flamme




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Holde (Aug 21, 2021)

SpringGSD said:


> I’ve been trying to find the old posts but now I’m struggling to find them! Von Lotta sounded familiar so I’ll try to find a pedigree through there and share it.


Waiko was a pattern sable in the US that was used as stud quite a bit. Some WGSL breeders liked that he went back to von Arlett dogs which had a reputation as being better at work. 

I think von Lotta used him once with one of their females. I do not follow this closely but surmise he did not produce as well as hoped because there were not a lot of repeat litters. 






Waiko vom Schaumbergerland


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Waiko vom Schaumbergerland




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Look at his progeny page to see the different kennels who used him in their breedings in the U.S.


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## Holde (Aug 21, 2021)

Also, SpringGSD, I have owned 3 showlines,1 ASL and 2 WGSLs. I currently have my first WL and in many respects the WL is a blast, no question, but lets just say "working" does not mean only the dog works! They are also a pain in the you know what.

It's been my experience that a WGSL from a good breeder that breeds to the rules of the SV- may not have sables and blacks- but the temperament of the WGSLs tend to be much more predictable. Meaning if you go to a good breeder like von Lotta, I also very much recommend von den Oher Tannen (Nadia Adams) who produces very nice dogs you will have a better chance of getting a very nice environmentally stable dog that you can go places with and enjoy. 

I will get hammered for this but i am old and do not care, WLs I have found can be flakey/sharp even from good breeders. Some of them are handler aggressive and some WL breeders like that. Intensity in work can and does bleed into other aspects which can make them challenging. Many WL breeders who have high level competition dogs do not live with them in the house. Great dogs that work but most people do not want to only have the dog in a kennel and then compete only. Please note this is *_not *_ all WL breeders but there are some who do not care if the dog can also be a companion in the home. I think people tend to over emphasize the goods or bads of one line to another depending on what they like or appreciate.

If you have your heart set on doing any kind of bite sport in the future go with a WL, but go in with eyes wide open and make sure the WL breeder has dogs with "off switches". 

If you want an active family companion that is easier to live with go with a WGSL.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Spend a lot time looking for a Breeder you trust, then be willing to wait for right pup.

We told our WL Breeder we wanted medium drives, biddable, clear headed, off switch, and solid nerves. After 8 months she had two pups that matched. 

We got the perfect companion family dog for us. Great bite inhibition from day one, Spent a lot of time as a pup playing with around other adult GSD than just mom. Easy to train, eager to please, happy to chill as long as she gets her exercise.

The right WL GSD is dream as long as you put in the time to train while exercising the body and mind.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Working lines can do fine in a family home, but you want to look at a breeder who is breeding for a good balanced dog, not over the top drives.


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## Holde (Aug 21, 2021)

Yes. It is interesting that people keep saying find the "right breeder" who is "trustworthy" find the "right dog with balanced temperament". This IS very crucial for a non working home to take in a WL dog. They MUST be very careful. It is even harder in the U.S. since the AKC does not mandate any sort of health let alone temperament testing to breed a registered litter. Some one can throw together and ASL with high drive czech dog and what a mess results. Ask me how I know, I dealt with a dog like this. Horrible mess temperament wise.

The question is not if some people are successful or maybe downplaying the problems. But anyone who works with dogs hands on, so sees many examples over the years, can also talk about the many times it does not work out.

Two days ago I was on the phone with a local trainer who I know personally, like. This trainer was a LE K9 handler in a large city for 30 years, also trained for her department. She now trains for competition and pet training. She told me about a client who has a WL and is struggling terribly with the dog. She is worried that it is bad match for him and his family. She says she sees it fairly often she said.

A breeder (who is very good, breeds to SV standard all the way) got a WL back from a family. It was too much for them so they left the puppy in the crate all the time. Puppy was skinny and no muscle.

A friend of mine got talked into a WL by her friend who also breeds them. I like the dog. He is small (which I like them on the small size) fast, focused, smart, loves toys and food. Super nice little shepherd. He is, however, right on the border for this person. She is too soft natured and slow, he takes full advantage of it. He needs clarity and consistency, not wagging a finger and saying over and over his name in a stern tone of voice. She told me sadly the last time I saw her, I really wanted a lab.

Over the years I have seen this with many powerful working breeds. I had an elderly couple get talked into a high drive field line lab, yup a lab! The breeder competes in hunt trials for prizes so breeds lab x ferraris. A slow dog for this breeder is still way too much for a lot of average dog owners. The dog was a working beast with energy and even a little bit of fight. He almost broke the hip of his owner.

You will always read the positive stories online. People will not share when they feel like they have failed. So I have learned to be very careful giving advice and if someone is hesitant about a working breed (can be a field lab, a working BC even field goldens can be a handful).

So my advice is* not* to the OP but people here - be careful how you give advice. How easy is it to know what "trustworthy" breeder is when there are no real rules for breeding in the AKC other then mother and father are purebred? How much will you be able to help that person if the cute laid back 8 week old puppy turns out to be a "sleeper"?

If someone says they are busy, or do not have experience and are leaning to a showline then let them go with what they are comfortable with. Trust the person who is being honest about their experience and life style. If someone says to me I WANT to work in the bite sports then I say get a WL and be prepared to work.

Also. The retired K9 handler is now breeding WGSLs, still loves and respects the WLs but in her 70s now she prefers her SLs, they are easier to live with she says. Her litters are always spoken for. The showlines - love them or hate them they are not going away.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SpringGSD said:


> I’ve been trying to find the old posts but now I’m struggling to find them! Von Lotta sounded familiar so I’ll try to find a pedigree through there and share it.



I would love to see it  I've never seen a sable WGSL, or even a picture of one. They must be gorgeous.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here's an old thread on them









All Sables/Bicolor working line?


I hope this is the right place to post this question: Are all sables and bi-colors working line?? DH and I are thinking of getting a second GSD in a year or so. I always wanted a sable or bi-color but only see them in Working Lines. DH prefers Showlines after having Tetley. She is...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

Nessie von Lotta


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Nessie von Lotta




www.pedigreedatabase.com




From what I can tell this is their main sable female, she’s stunning! If you go through their Facebook page there are pictures of her with her litters, which seem each have a good amount of sable pups but I didn’t scroll down too far.





SG (USCA) Netzer von Lotta | Von Rief German Shepherds


SG16 (USCA) Netzer von Lotta is a handsome, young male with an outstanding temperament. He is very friendly, obedient and eager to please and absolutely loves life! Netzer is a rare, red sable show line. Because he also carries the black/red gene from his father, he will produce both red sable...




www.vonriefgermanshepherds.com




Upon a quick google search I found this male produced through them as well.
I really love how the sables still basically have saddles like a black/tan. I’ve never seen anything like it so I’m kinda obsessed!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ahhh...patterned sables. That's pretty common in working line


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had posted Facebook link of Von Lotta kennels gorgeous wgsl sable pups in many of her breedings and also a pedigree. Stock and long coatie sables. They also have a beautiful black wgsl from Germany.


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## SpringGSD (Mar 24, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Ahhh...patterned sables. That's pretty common in working line


I guess I need to start paying better attention! I’ll just have to blame it on poor eyesight


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## Holde (Aug 21, 2021)

In the WGSL what is nice about the pattern sables is their saddle usually does not fade (creeping tan gene I think it is called). BTW some interesting genetic discoveries going on with coat colors and RALY gene.


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