# Country dog not liking town



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga is getting funny about being in town. She lives and was raised on a ranch and is amost 2 years old. She always rides to town in a big kennel cage in the back of the truck. She has been fine until recently. Now, as soon as we turn into a parking lot she starts anxiously whining. She whines the whole time while I look for a parking place. She seems fine when I come out of the store, usually she is just lying down, although sometimes she has attracted a small crowd of admirers. She will also bark a bark or two at people who are walking on the street. She has never done this. She is due to come into heat soon. Her last heat was in July. Do bitches become hormonal at this time? On the ranch she will often urinate small pees in many different places, almost like she is marking territory or leaving little 'calling cards'. (No she does not have a UTI, she was just at the vet).

Other information - I do take her into stores where dogs are allowed. She loves Tractor Supply and quickly learns new tricks in there, like climbing into a box, getting and bringing things I point at or jumping up and downing on stacks of feedsacks. She heels right at my knee all through Home Despot and Lowes, she enjoys Hobby Lobby and Academy. But for some reason she just hates Petsmart. Her head is low, she quiveres and looks submissive in there, she tries to bolt out the door. I have taken her back there a few times to work on this. But Now I am thinking- why take her in there at all? She hates Petsmart for some reason. Could this be the cause of her disliking town?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

On the Petsmart thing, I would listen to her and avoid the place! She doesn't like it for whatever reason, but since it's not an essential part of life, why even try to work on this lol.

And yes, dogs getting ready to come into heat often act a little (or a lot!) differently due to hormonal changes. Of course, there's no way to know if this is why Inga is acting this way, other than to wait and see how she acts afterward. A friend of mine's dog, who is also 2, became a lot more dog aggressive just before her heat. And, worth noting, she was less friendly and playful afterward too. Sort of like, now that she's 2 she's no longer a puppy. Only time will tell how your dog will act afterward....


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sounds like genetics-based nerve issues. Lower environmental soundness. 

You could do desensitization training so she can gain confidence in places she needs to visit regularly.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Is she uncomfortable because when she is left in the parkinglot people come and stare at her in the crate? 

I like leaving my dog crated in my truck cap because the windows are tinted and most people don't even notice he is there.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Sounds like genetics-based nerve issues. Lower environmental soundness.
> 
> You could do desensitization training so she can gain confidence in places she needs to visit regularly.


She has stood for gunfire since she was a puppy and still does, not afraid of thunder, no separation anxiety, does not freak out at the vet's. Her nerves are solid. She has recently started whining when going into parking lots. The only place she shows this nervous behavior is inside Petsmart. She has no reason to go in there. I was starting to desensitize her to Petsmart but why?I don't like Petsmart either. I only go in there to buy bird food. She doesn't mind if people stare at her in the parking lot. She is well socialized to people. The only thing I can think of is that she will be coming into heat soon.

Oh I have an idea. There is another pet store in town- Whole Pets. I will take her in there and see how she acts. Also, what about when driving into parking lots my husband rides in the back with her jackpotting her with meat?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> She has stood for gunfire since she was a puppy and still does, not afraid of thunder, no separation anxiety, does not freak out at the vet's. Her nerves are solid. She has recently started whining when going into parking lots. The only place she shows this nervous behavior is inside Petsmart. She has no reason to go in there. I was starting to desensitize her to Petsmart but why?I don't like Petsmart either. I only go in there to buy bird food. She doesn't mind if people stare at her in the parking lot. She is well socialized to people. The only thing I can think of is that she will be coming into heat soon.
> 
> Oh I have an idea. There is another pet store in town- Whole Pets. I will take her in there and see how she acts. Also, what about when driving into parking lots my husband rides in the back with her jackpotting her with meat?


Nerve strength isn't black/white pass/fail. She can be confident in some places and situations and not so much in others. I've always thought of it as being a spectrum. Rock solid at one end, quivering panicking mess at the other. Most dogs fall somewhere in the middle. 

Personally, I wouldn't consider a dog that hangs it head and quivers in a pet store to be solid nerved (or a bitch that loses her courage during heat cycles either for that matter) - but that's just me. I would contact her breeder to at the very least report this behavior. Could be important for when they make future breeding decisions.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

She's not in heat yet. I remember something bad that happened in Petsmart when she was 8 or 9months old. I was at the checkout talking to the lady when out of nowhere a little toddler comes racing toward her arms stretched out shouting I hug doggie! He was two feet away and closing fast. Inga who was leaning toward and looking at the child alertly. Without thinking- heck- I didn't have time. I didn't know if she would bite the kid or not. She's never been around kids. I reflexivly body blocked her and slammed her against the counter. Then from somewhere in the back the mother comes up and says Oh he loves all dogs. He rides our pitbull at home. Great, I said, and left. 

Voodoo, this is not a dog that has to be "reported to her breeder" so the breeding pair will never be crossed again. I came here for insight and advice. Thanks


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Might be the whining going into parking lots is purely as simple as excited anticipation of getting out of the crate and going on the store adventure. She has learned the routine. 

I don't understand why every time a dog develops little quirk in their behavior people like to jump on the nervy bad temperament train. 

I have a nervy, scaredy, genetic mess of a GSD. If all she did was whine some entering parking lots and didn't like Petsmart I would jump with joy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Springbrz said:


> Might be the whining going into parking lots is purely as simple as excited anticipation of getting out of the crate and going on the store adventure. She has learned the routine.
> 
> I don't understand why every time a dog develops little quirk in their behavior people like to jump on the nervy bad temperament train.
> 
> I have a nervy, scaredy, genetic mess of a GSD. If all she did was whine some entering parking lots and didn't like Petsmart I would jump with joy.


Whining and quivering & submissive. Thats nerves. Its not an insult, I'd say it about my own dogs. Generally something like "He nerved up there" Its more like what voodoo mentioned about not being completely black and white, if mine leaks in anticipation of the ball, that's nerves. If a generally great dog gets a couple bad grips, then doesn't want to out, thats nerves. It happens with dogs, but its not an insult to say it.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Its only under a certain situation that she does this and she didn't used to do it. What should I do about it if anything? Thanks


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Whining, like she is excited? 

When my dogs think they are going somewhere, they get excited and whine. Midnite does this at the vet, we pull in and he starts--he loves the vet. Robyn will whine if we pull up to the place where I took her swimming--usually I just have to run in for something, but she thinks she is going swimming. APOLLO whines and dances when we pull into the parking lot at the forest preserves-he loves hiking. Midnite also loves Petsmart, Robyn is neutral, and APOLLO does not care for it.

I don't think its nerves at all. Sometimes that ride just isn't enough, they want to check things out. I take mine on small errands often, but different places bring out excitement, other places-nothing.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

And Mr. Stom, why would a dog that is in a biting grip not want to Out? Why is that nerves? Seems like it is passion. He doesn't want to stop biting, thats drive.

This is why I think Inga has good nerve. She knows and is proofed (in town) in over 30 commands. Most of her liniage are titled ScHs. This summer she ran off a bear from the yard while I held her back by the collar. She was charging this bear pulling me forward on her hind legs. She has also removed a couple of strange men from my place in the woods, that is, they got back in their trucks while I held her back. She has run off a sounder of wild hogs and returned when called. I know to let her win in these defensive aggressions at her young age.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Whining and quivering & submissive. Thats nerves. Its not an insult, I'd say it about my own dogs. Generally something like "He nerved up there" Its more like what voodoo mentioned about not being completely black and white, if mine leaks in anticipation of the ball, that's nerves. If a generally great dog gets a couple bad grips, then doesn't want to out, thats nerves. It happens with dogs, but its not an insult to say it.


Yes. No insult intended. 

It's not the whining that made think the dog is a bit nervy, but the "Her head is low, she quiveres and looks submissive in there, she tries to bolt out the door." part. The whining could be excitement related. Hard to tell without being there to observe the dog


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes. No insult intended.
> 
> It's not the whining that made think the dog is a bit nervy, but the "Her head is low, she quiveres and looks submissive in there, she tries to bolt out the door." part. The whining could be excitement related. Hard to tell without being there to observe the dog


It might be from her horrible experience with the Petstupid toddler. Thats the only place she does this.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes. No insult intended.
> 
> It's not the whining that made think the dog is a bit nervy, but the "Her head is low, she quiveres and looks submissive in there, she tries to bolt out the door." part. The whining could be excitement related. Hard to tell without being there to observe the dog


I still look at the whining, or leaking as nerves. Can't hold it in. A lot of great dogs do it here and there.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Talk about not black and white...whining isn't black and white with my dog. He whines when he is bored. He whines when he is nervous. He whines when he is excited. 

He almost never whines when we start driving in the truck UNLESS he knows we are going tracking. That means 5 minutes or less drive to tracking field, and this is his excited whine, there is nothing he loves more.

Sounds like you know why she doesn't like Petsmart. I would absolutely never be convinced that my female has bad nerves, and a particular trainer did a stupid thing and scared her during a formative stage, around 6 months, and my dog never forgot. She never really liked that trainer or forgave her for it, and she let us both know it. 

If that trainer took the leash to try and show me something, the dog would usually just stare at me and refuse to work with her.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> It might be from her horrible experience with the Petstupid toddler. Thats the only place she does this.


Sorry, but if she can't get over something like that, that would be bad nerves.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> It might be from her horrible experience with the Petstupid toddler. Thats the only place she does this.


Strong nerved dogs recover after horrible experiences, they don't continue to exhibit extreme fear behavior almost an entire year after the incident.

Not saying Ingna is a lost cause. Clearly she has good nerves when she is on her home turf. Just saying that if nerves are on a scale of bad < poor < fair < good < strong she would probably be more along the lines of fair/good than strong. 

The poor recovery after her experience is troubling though, that's why I suggested reaching out to her breeder. Not saying there is anything wrong with the sire or dam in themselves, but maybe they just aren't great paired together. I like chocolate milk, and I like V8, but I don't think I'd like them together LOL Breeders need to know when this type of stuff crops up in a dog they produced.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Sorry, but if she can't get over something like that, that would be bad nerves.


Agree.

Not a GSD but an old rescue I had fostered was literally set on fire. He didn't have any fear issues afterwards. The goof even had to go to the vet after running through a bondfire one night. Can't think of anything more traumatic than that for a dog to go through. He would have been an example of a super strong nerved dogs. Nothing ever phased him.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I still look at the whining, or leaking as nerves. Can't hold it in. A lot of great dogs do it here and there.


Hmmm... I never considered that. Thanks for giving me something to chew on!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> I still look at the whining, or leaking as nerves. Can't hold it in. A lot of great dogs do it here and there.


Well, if that's the case then I guess my girl's got problems after all because man, she is a screamer. Anything involving drive and she screams, shrieks, sings, talks like a wookie...you name it.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Agree.
> 
> Not a GSD but an old rescue I had fostered was literally set on fire. He didn't have any fear issues afterwards. The goof even had to go to the vet after running through a bondfire one night. Can't think of anything more traumatic than that for a dog to go through. He would have been an example of a super strong nerved dogs. Nothing ever phased him.


In my view, a dog running through a bonfire is dumber than a box of rocks, not strong nerved. On the other hand, a dog willing to run through a bonfire to protect his handler, while fully aware of the danger, is strong nerved. Big difference!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Nurse Bishop said:


> It might be from her horrible experience with the Petstupid toddler. Thats the only place she does this.


How is she around kids? It's interesting she would associate the incident with the location. My male was bitten by a neighbor kid visiting my daughter. Made him Yelp, but no retaliation, just came to the living room where we were.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't think willingness or stupidness to run through a bonfire is the thing--the thing is how the dog is effected by it mentally and how they recover.

My service dog had a child sneak up on her and bounce a balloon off her head in the checkout line at the grocery store once. The kid bounced the balloon off my dog's head. I can't really use it as an example of recovery because the dog was not shook up by it. She just looked at me with her typical eye-roll type expression, knowing I have the power to protect her from tiny bipedal heathens with balloons so why don't I do it. She has always basically liked children and this incident didn't change anything about her. I can pretty well tell you my younger dog would not have responded so well to that

Here's one I guess-- I slammed her tail in a door accidentally once. She never had any fear of doors, even big heavy ones like the one I slammed on her, or slamming noises, ect. From a self preservation stand point you might think she'd want to be a little more careful with her tail (I certainly was)


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nigel said:


> How is she around kids? It's interesting she would associate the incident with the location. My male was bitten by a neighbor kid visiting my daughter. Made him Yelp, but no retaliation, just came to the living room where we were.


The dog was bitten by a child????


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, if that's the case then I guess my girl's got problems after all because man, she is a screamer. Anything involving drive and she screams, shrieks, sings, talks like a wookie...you name it.




I have one of those too. Some days I ask her if she’s a basenji. The sounds that come out of that dog when she’s excited!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The dog was bitten by a child????


Yes, he was laying in the hallway outside my daughters bedroom. The kid saw him there and bit him on his back. We initially thought it was an accident like his tail being stepped on, but nope the kid bit him.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> In my view, a dog running through a bonfire is dumber than a box of rocks, not strong nerved. On the other hand, a dog willing to run through a bonfire to protect his handler, while fully aware of the danger, is strong nerved. Big difference!


Uh. No. The dog was not dumb. Not at all. A bit drivey - someone had been playing fetch with a stick with the dog and absent mindedly tossed it into the fire when they were done - but regardless, the point is that the dog had excellent recovery from a traumatic incident. 2 traumatic incidents. That _is_ a strong nerved dog.

I don't think you and I are working off of the same definition of what "nerves" mean in regards to working dogs. What you are talking about I would describe as _courage_. Not nerve strength at all.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, if that's the case then I guess my girl's got problems after all because man, she is a screamer. Anything involving drive and she screams, shrieks, sings, talks like a wookie...you name it.


Ranger shrieks about some things, its awful sometimes. Neighbors hearing it have inquired about his well being on occasion, lol

Zoey leaks too, but she likes rapid air snapping. Doesn't bother me, but some of the people at rally give us looks.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Uh. No. The dog was not dumb. Not at all. A bit drivey - someone had been playing fetch with a stick with the dog and absent mindedly tossed it into the fire when they were done - but regardless, the point is that the dog had excellent recovery from a traumatic incident. 2 traumatic incidents. That _is_ a strong nerved dog.


Sorry, on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. A very stupid dog will recover from a traumatic experience quickly also, and it has nothing to do with nerve strength. I have seen stupid dogs run out into traffic and get hit by a car, but never show any reluctance to run out into traffic later...doesn't make them strong nerved!

I'm not saying your dog was stupid, but as an example of true nerve strength in a dog...maybe that particular incident isn't the best to cite?!



voodoolamb said:


> I don't think you and I are working off of the same definition of what "nerves" mean in regards to working dogs. What you are talking about I would describe as _courage_. Not nerve strength at all.


Again, in my view courage stems from solid nerves. Weak nerved dogs seldom if ever display courage. So perhaps you're right and our definitions differ...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel said:


> How is she around kids? It's interesting she would associate the incident with the location. My male was bitten by a neighbor kid visiting my daughter. Made him Yelp, but no retaliation, just came to the living room where we were.


I hit Shadow with a pot by accident. Scared the crap out of her. But her favorite room is still the kitchen. And she really gets happy when I get pots out of the cupboard. Even if the pot in the face didn't scare her my cooking ought to send her running.:smile2:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Again, in my view courage stems from solid nerves. Weak nerved dogs seldom if ever display courage. So perhaps you're right and our definitions differ...


On this point I disagree. Courage is not the absence of fear, it's acting in spite of the fear.

I have a poorly bred, undeniably nervy dog. However as she has proven, shaking in her proverbial boots, she will willingly and without hesitation move to position herself between me and a threat and stand her ground. No leash, no coercion, no command. Visibly shaking, and all bark and bravado.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> On this point I disagree. Courage is not the absence of fear, it's acting in spite of the fear.
> 
> I have a poorly bred, undeniably nervy dog. However as she has proven, shaking in her proverbial boots, she will willingly and without hesitation move to position herself between me and a threat and stand her ground. No leash, no coercion, no command. Visibly shaking, and all bark and bravado.


But she also goes in the kitchen braving both your cooking, and your apparent penchant for attacking her with lots and pans. LOL!

So I think it's safe to say that Shadow doesn't fit either mold entirely...

Acting in spite of fear is exactly what I would consider strong nerves. If a dog acts "because" he has no fear, then we're back to the box of rocks analogy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know how courageous this is, but Babsy recognized that I left a burner on in the kitchen and the pot was burning and she came to me and made me follow her to show me the bad thing. Courage? Mabye not. Intelligence, yeah. 

There is a big difference between TSC here and PetSmart. TSC is populated by a different brand of people (here), most are country folks who have pets. PetSmart is populated by pets who have people. There is a different smell and a different feel to PetSmart, a lot more dogs per square foot. Go into PetsMart at any time, and you will see 6 or 8 or 12 dogs. At TSC, you might see 1 besides your own. So it is different. Also, since some PetsMarts have a vet, and I think all of them have groomers, there is likely to be a dog in panic mode in there, either terrified by just being at the vet, or nervous about the grooming and toenails, etc. Chances are there is a dog in there at any given time that is exhuding nervous, fearful behavior etc. And unless there is a vaccine clinic on the day, you will not meet any of that at TSC. So, they are different places, and your dog can be picking up on that. 

As for leaving the dog in a large kennel in the back of your pick up, probably the whining is just anticipation. I hope. But I don't like the dog drawing a crowd. 999 people out of 1000 will not deliberately do anything to harm your dog. But if someone were to have bear-sprayed your dog while you were in the store, would you have any way to even know it? But that could make your dog act very different. I have never heard of this happening, but when I had my explorer, I used to have a couple of crates in the back, and I would leave the back window open, and the back windows down if I went into a store. 

Now it is not natural to walk so close to the back of a vehicle that you can walk UNDER the back window. But if I had a nickel for the number of people who walked right next to the back of my vehicle in a wide open parking lot, so they were under that window, only to be surprised by the dog, so it made them jump when the dog barked... And my point is, IF one of those people were carrying pepper spray or mace, probably they wouldn't think to use it. But the wrong person might. And I would have never known it happened. 

And folks are idiots around your dog. They are. They will shove limbs into a vehicle to pet the doggy. Grown people. Oh, dogs all like me. They will walk around with treats in their pockets and give your dog a treat. Without asking! With no idea if your dog has allergies or EPI or some other reason not to eat whatever nasty wormy treats you have in your pocket. Or they will poke a stick at a dog, because it is funny to get the dog to engage with the stick. Some will yell at the dog to correct it from barking at them, a stranger! Or worse, to try to get them to show aggression. 

Going to dog shows, we often leave dogs in the back of vehicles with the back open, and such. And were horrified to hear about PETA people letting dogs loose or poisoning dogs at dog shows. Loose dogs could get into fights or run into a road and get themselves killed. We think that at a dog show, amongst dog-people, where most of the people there have their own dogs, our dogs would be safe. Dog people look out for each other's dogs like neighborhood people look out of other people's kids. But, it happened. And ok, PETA people don't like dog shows because that is all about breeding. But the more I think about it, the less safe I feel about dogs open in the back of a truck. Stuck in a crate, where they cannot get away, where a coward could easily damage a dog. A child can do an ignorant damaging thing, even a crowd of folks with no evil intentions can make a young dog react. 

Trust me, I have done this a thousand times, and I don't know that anything ever happened. But it seems that things are getting worse and worse, human depravity. And perhaps I was lucky. I might re-think this method of taking the dog out and about. Trips to town could be dog-trips, where you go for dog-related stuff to businesses where the dog is welcome, or non-dog related where the dog stays home. I think a truck cap would reduce the risk to your dog 100 fold. People will bother something out in the open air, and feel that to go up under a cap would be somehow out of bounds, maybe with most folks.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Its only under a certain situation that she does this and she didn't used to do it. What should I do about it if anything? Thanks


I was enjoying the discussion of nerves and nerve strength...but to answer this, from an admittedly unprofessional trainer point of view, I'd wait and just let her settle after the heat. Wait and see how her confidence and overall demeanor changes (If at all), and reassess then.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I don't know how courageous this is, but Babsy recognized that I left a burner on in the kitchen and the pot was burning and she came to me and made me follow her to show me the bad thing. Courage? Mabye not. Intelligence, yeah.
> 
> There is a big difference between TSC here and PetSmart. TSC is populated by a different brand of people (here), most are country folks who have pets. PetSmart is populated by pets who have people. There is a different smell and a different feel to PetSmart, a lot more dogs per square foot. Go into PetsMart at any time, and you will see 6 or 8 or 12 dogs. At TSC, you might see 1 besides your own. So it is different. Also, since some PetsMarts have a vet, and I think all of them have groomers, there is likely to be a dog in panic mode in there, either terrified by just being at the vet, or nervous about the grooming and toenails, etc. Chances are there is a dog in there at any given time that is exhuding nervous, fearful behavior etc. And unless there is a vaccine clinic on the day, you will not meet any of that at TSC. So, they are different places, and your dog can be picking up on that.
> 
> ...


I agree, drawing a crowd to an unattended dog in a crate makes me very uncomfortable. 

I had left my dogs in the back of my station wagon which head lots of Windows and some idiot came up and started knocking on the windows to get their attention. I was keeping an eye on them and immediately stepped out and said "please don't harass the dogs". he was argumentative and said "I am not harassing the dogs!" I think he thought he was having a friendly interaction with them but it was not friendly on their end and not something I was going to allow.

So he continued to argue with me about whether it was ok to knock on my car windows and he came to the store I was in and about this time my husband had caught on and came over to back me up and that was the end of it.

people are crazy.

I don't want or allow people to notice my dogs. I have left the one in the crate with the truck top open but the aluminet slung over it so when you walk by you don't immediately see a dog. Mine usually don't bark when people walk by the empty truck.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Maybe this whining going into parking lots is anticipitory excitement. She loves to go places, loads up with great joy, and barks and whines going down the driveway, and off loads to go into stores with great enthusiasm. I will observe her body language next time we go into a parking lot and she starts whining. I haven't observed her since I was driving.

By Selzer
"There is a big difference between TSC here and PetSmart. TSC is populated by a different brand of people (here), most are country folks who have pets. PetSmart is populated by pets who have people. There is a different smell and a different feel to PetSmart, a lot more dogs per square foot. Go into PetsMart at any time, and you will see 6 or 8 or 12 dogs. At TSC, you might see 1 besides your own. So it is different. Also, since some PetsMarts have a vet, and I think all of them have groomers, there is likely to be a dog in panic mode in there, either terrified by just being at the vet, or nervous about the grooming and toenails, etc. Chances are there is a dog in there at any given time that is exhuding nervous, fearful behavior etc. And unless there is a vaccine clinic on the day, you will not meet any of that at TSC. So, they are different places, and your dog can be picking up on that. 

You are right. PetSmart even has a sign on the door about Dogs keep your "Pet Parent" on a leash. I could vomit. Emplyees also stand around giving me dirty looks because Inga has a prong collar on, although they sell them. Customers with little bitty dogs giving Inga the stink eye because she is a German Shepherd. And I have seen dogs bolting out of the groomers door too, and the dogs in there barking Help! Help! never thought of that. The All Positive trainers have approached us with their bags of treats and asking to treat her. No! thank you I am trying to train her to not take food from strangers. I say this while feeling kind of pissed off. Sure she picks up on this. And yes and there are a lot of dogs in there and Inga is never allowed to associate with them with a no and go the other way. In contrast, TSC has realistic country people buying giant bags of dogfood. Lots of ranchers who smell like livestock to her and the store smells like feed. Most everyone is friendly to me and happy to see Inga. She loves it in there. She even learns new tricks in there. She is not allowed to interact with other dogs there either. I just say she is in training.

My husband likes to go with me to town. He often waits in the truck at the store. No one bothers Inga and almost everyone passing makes a positive comment about her. Like how beautiful she is and we often hear all about GSDs they used to have, and 'best dog I ever had", but you all are right, there are many nuts in this world. 

Still, no one has answered my question about how can a dog on a bite that refuses to Out be bad nerves? Seems to me that is passion and drive and maybe not perfect obediance. But I don't know, I don't do Sch. Please explain.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

tim_s_adams View Post
Again, in my view courage stems from solid nerves. Weak nerved dogs seldom if ever display courage. So perhaps you're right and our definitions differ...

This is what I think also. She stands there looking interested when guns are fired off. Inga has (in defense drive) run off bears and no goodniks from the yard. She has 'removed' sounders of wild hogs. Last summer I saw behaviors in her and a kind of barking I have never seen and heard starting at about 18 months.

Will the expert trainers here please suggest what I should do about this behavior in Petsmart? Forget it? Don't take her there? Habituate?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I had a horse once that jumped over fire and saved our lives. It was in a forest fire and the wind had changed trapping us up against a barb wire fence. I rode her along the fire line until I found a place where the fire was lower in height. She didn't want to but she jumped it, (with very strong cues from me.)


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

In looking to identify the source of a problem in a dogs behavoir be careful not to explain it away. Hearing about leaking be a nerve issue is new to me, so is refusing to release. I've seen both behaviors in mine and it can help understand and potentially work through issues with a clear understanding of what's actually going on.

Eta, basically keep and open mind and be honest with yourself.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't think a labrador who loves everybody has strong nerve. If the lab was able to also perform protection work reliably, my assessment might change. I've met plenty of stupidly social dogs who would have very poor nerve for working especially protection work. 

So, with the bonfire recovery example, I don't know if that tells us much. I've had dogs fall through the ice and then show no hesitation of running onto the ice again. Dogs kicked by moose, still eager to chase moose (not allowed, but that's on me, not the dog's choice). Had little to do with the nerve base, as I'd describe it, of the respective dogs. 

My family dog growing up had no fear of cars even after getting clipped by one. The recovery after these incidents involves something other than nerves, I don't know what, but it's not nerves, as we use it in the working-dog world, because that dog was dumb as rocks and absolutely no protection dog (nice family pet, though). 

Also, with the whining- maybe this is specific to protection scenarios, but if you've ever been to the start of Iditarod, the place is echoing with whining, barking, howling dogs "leaking" drive. Not sure nerves have anything to do with that, if anything, the shyest, most fearful "nervy" dogs are the quietest, and just cower there shaking in harness. 

An example:


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

This is a very interesting discussion. I was doubting my dogs nerve strength because he's so fearful of other dogs. Given that he had a bad experience of another dog going after him and drawing blood - from what I hear in this thread - is that if he were stronger nerved, he would have gotten over it quickly. He's gotten over bad experiences before (bad nail trim that caused him to bleed, kids tripping on him, boxes falling on him, things startling him, etc.) with no ill effects and no signs of avoidance. 

In the dog class where he was attacked, the dogs were all crated. One of the dogs broke out, went after him, nipped him, and caused him to bleed. He would then bark fearfully every time a dog went near his cage at class. Most likely because he couldn't get away?

When I go outside in my backyard to exercise and play with my dog, I noticed he doesn't pay attention to either of my neighbors barking dogs. I have neighbors on both sides of me with dogs that bark while we are outside. My dog shows no reaction. Doesn't even go to the fence to check out the barking dogs. He's totally focused on me and playing. Even when I go inside for a minute and he remains outside, he doesn't focus on the dogs. It then occurred to me that his fearful reaction is only when he's on leash (or in the case of the class, in his crate) where he can't get away.

I think the issue may be with me (shocker!) and how I handle his reaction on leash as opposed to him not getting over it. Or is it an issue with nerves? I know I now tense up when I see another dog because I'm anticipating his reaction, which is only making it worse. I don't think I tensed up in the beginning because I didn't know he was going to have such a reaction to other dogs. But now I do. I'm not sure what to do now.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> The nervous system, or “nerves”,
> controls the level of excitement, stress,
> aggression, fearfulness, and
> nervousness the dog feels, and
> ...


That's from this article. 

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf

Leaking drive, whining in anticipation, it comes from nerves. It doesn't mean the dogs a crapper if you keep it in relation to the whole dog. The venue or scenario isn't the key. Can the dogs finish the race? Look at the whole picture.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> In looking to identify the source of a problem in a dogs behavoir be careful not to explain it away. Hearing about leaking be a nerve issue is new to me, so is refusing to release. I've seen both behaviors in mine and it can help understand and potentially work through issues with a clear understanding of what's actually going on.
> 
> Eta, basically keep and open mind and be honest with yourself.


The context I was using for not outing Nigel, something goes wrong in the routine so the dog nerves up and now he doesn't out. Different dogs, different reasons, lot of variables that can be part of it and not just so narrow as a sport context either.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When I first put the sled harness on max when he was a pup I let him walk around with it in the house I was busy cooking or doing something I dont really remember but found max all entangled and unable to move in his harness. He literally looked like he was in a straight jacket. I felt awful and screwed up. I put it on wrong and some how he got caught in it. It was a wheel cart harness so not the easiest to put on. I thought I could figure it out myself-not. Even to this day max won’t cower or shake but he is still and quiet and looks shutdown when I put the sled harness on inside the house. The minute we go outside or in the car with the harness on -he is his crazy nut self even if it’s just walking to the mailbox he is not bothered by it but after we have fun and come inside the house with his harness on he gets quite and looks like he getting goosed. So I just put it on and take it off outside. When max was a pup around 4 months old I had a lead rope on him. He jumped up and went to steal food from the counter I grabbed the lead rope and yanked it when he was in the air just about to grab the food he slammed down so hard on the ground he screamed for a few minutes. It was so upsetting and I was so scared he broke something. He was okay and no damage done as far as I know. It never stopped him from Counter surfing and loves to jump in on over thing even though that severe correction was not meant to be severe and unsettling. He is not a nerve bag either. I always felt it was not as black and white as voodoo lamb said. I’m sure there are many fireman who are afraid of the color pink or bugs not really fair to compare dogs with people but everyone has a weakness I suppose if it hinders life or performances needed then there are real issues.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> She has stood for gunfire since she was a puppy and still does, not afraid of thunder, no separation anxiety, does not freak out at the vet's. Her nerves are solid. She has recently started whining when going into parking lots. The only place she shows this nervous behavior is inside Petsmart. She has no reason to go in there. I was starting to desensitize her to Petsmart but why?I don't like Petsmart either. I only go in there to buy bird food. She doesn't mind if people stare at her in the parking lot. She is well socialized to people. The only thing I can think of is that she will be coming into heat soon.
> 
> Oh I have an idea. There is another pet store in town- Whole Pets. I will take her in there and see how she acts. Also, what about when driving into parking lots my husband rides in the back with her jackpotting her with meat?


I don't think that's a sign of solid nerves. 

My city is very dog friendly - stores, taprooms, coffee shops, lots of places allow dogs. My dog has been going to these places since my vet cleared her following puppy shots. She also has some environmental sensitivities that we never detected until we started doing Nosework and saw some slight anxiety come out in a working environment. I bring this up because despite that sensitivity, she does not respond with fear or anxiety in a PetSmart or other big box store. She's either neutral or happy to go someplace she might get a treat and admiration. Whining and other nervous behavior at any store (minus some specific learned trigger) would make me concerned that my dog did not have strong nerves.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

IllinoisNative said:


> This is a very interesting discussion. I was doubting my dogs nerve strength because he's so fearful of other dogs. Given that he had a bad experience of another dog going after him and drawing blood - from what I hear in this thread - is that if he were stronger nerved, he would have gotten over it quickly. He's gotten over bad experiences before (bad nail trim that caused him to bleed, kids tripping on him, boxes falling on him, things startling him, etc.) with no ill effects and no signs of avoidance.
> 
> In the dog class where he was attacked, the dogs were all crated. One of the dogs broke out, went after him, nipped him, and caused him to bleed. He would then bark fearfully every time a dog went near his cage at class. Most likely because he couldn't get away?
> 
> ...


Maybe he's not dog reactive to the neighbor dogs because he is habituated and used to them. They are just background noise.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> The context I was using for not outing Nigel, something goes wrong in the routine so the dog nerves up and now he doesn't out. Different dogs, different reasons, lot of variables that can be part of it and not just so narrow as a sport context either.


I don't know for sure what's at play in our case. This dogs loves to hold things, ball, stick etc... Loves fetch, tug, flirt pole, just doesn't want to out. We tried to remedy this to no avail. She returns with the object, stands there and will let you grab it, just won't release her grip and she seems pretty pleased about it like its part of the game.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

> Jenny " I’m sure there are many fireman who are afraid of the color pink or bugs ".

Thats true! My sisiter's best friend is a New York City fireman who was at the World Trade Center before it fell. He is freak out afraid of spiders.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Maybe he's not dog reactive to the neighbor dogs because he is habituated and used to them. They are just background noise.


I'm not so sure. Mostly because one of my neighbors just moved in a month ago, after my dog had the negative experience with the dog in the class. And the other neighbor rarely has his dog out while mine is out due to conflicting schedules. My fence also just got recently fixed due to hurricane Irma. It was down for months. 

I actually just noticed that he wasn't reacting to my neighbors dogs this week because both of their dogs were out at the same time as mine...which almost never happens. Otherwise, I think I would have noticed it was leash reactivity earlier. I honestly can't believe this just occurred to me.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> > Jenny " I’m sure there are many fireman who are afraid of the color pink or bugs ".
> 
> Thats true! My sisiter's best friend is a New York City fireman who was at the World Trade Center before it fell. He is freak out afraid of spiders.


It was a good hunch lol!!!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I don't know for sure what's at play in our case. This dogs loves to hold things, ball, stick etc... Loves fetch, tug, flirt pole, just doesn't want to out. We tried to remedy this to no avail. She returns with the object, stands there and will let you grab it, just won't release her grip and she seems pretty pleased about it like its part of the game.


What may help is if you can get her to associate outing with getting a re bite. Its easier with a tug than a ball, but hold it still till she finally outs, and then pull it straight back and let her re bite, almost like she's chasing it. Encourage her to come towards you with it, don't go towards her like you're taking it.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

WateryTart said:


> I don't think that's a sign of solid nerves.
> 
> My city is very dog friendly - stores, taprooms, coffee shops, lots of places allow dogs. My dog has been going to these places since my vet cleared her following puppy shots. She also has some environmental sensitivities that we never detected until we started doing Nosework and saw some slight anxiety come out in a working environment. I bring this up because despite that sensitivity, she does not respond with fear or anxiety in a PetSmart or other big box store. She's either neutral or happy to go someplace she might get a treat and admiration. Whining and other nervous behavior at any store (minus some specific learned trigger) would make me concerned that my dog did not have strong nerves.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Let me say this again. 
By Selzer
"There is a big difference between TSC here and PetSmart. TSC is populated by a different brand of people (here), most are country folks who have pets. PetSmart is populated by pets who have people. There is a different smell and a different feel to PetSmart, a lot more dogs per square foot. Go into PetsMart at any time, and you will see 6 or 8 or 12 dogs. At TSC, you might see 1 besides your own. So it is different. Also, since some PetsMarts have a vet, and I think all of them have groomers, there is likely to be a dog in panic mode in there, either terrified by just being at the vet, or nervous about the grooming and toenails, etc. Chances are there is a dog in there at any given time that is exhuding nervous, fearful behavior etc. And unless there is a vaccine clinic on the day, you will not meet any of that at TSC. So, they are different places, and your dog can be picking up on that. 

You are right. PetSmart even has a sign on the door about Dogs keep your "Pet Parent" on a leash. I could vomit. Emplyees also stand around giving me dirty looks because Inga has a prong collar on, although they sell them. Customers with little bitty dogs giving Inga the stink eye because she is a German Shepherd. And I have seen dogs bolting out of the groomers door too, and the dogs in there barking Help! Help! never thought of that. The All Positive trainers have approached us with their bags of treats and asking to treat her. No! thank you I am trying to train her to not take food from strangers. I say this while feeling kind of pissed off. Sure she picks up on this. And yes and there are a lot of dogs in there and Inga is never allowed to associate with them with a no and go the other way. In contrast, TSC has realistic country people buying giant bags of dogfood. Lots of ranchers who smell like livestock to her and the store smells like feed. Most everyone is friendly to me and happy to see Inga. She loves it in there. She even learns new tricks in there. She is not allowed to interact with other dogs there either. I just say she is in training.

I realize now Petsmart is like a **** for Inga. Yet, even at the spot where she got slammed against the checkout counter to avoid the charging toddler she is not avoidant of that spot. She obeys the feet up command and greats the lady. She does not remember that spot or probably that event. Its that the whole place is a horrible nightmare every time she goes inside. The reward is getting out of there.

Another thing- hardness in dogs (is that nerve?) is how quickly they recover from adversity such as a strong correction. I have using the e collar accidentally given Inga size 7 corrections which in the next second she shrugs it off and shes like OK lets get on with it. My Whippets would have shut down for the reat of the day if that happened.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Inga's nerve. She has developed a phobia of one place. As he said, They get more emotional, wait until after her heat period is over then see how she is.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> > The nervous system, or “nerves”,
> > controls the level of excitement, stress,
> > aggression, fearfulness, and
> > nervousness the dog feels, and
> ...


This makes a lot of sense to me and a good article and often I got the assumption on this forum that if a dog had any fear/stress was a spook even though at the same time there is no such thing as super dog -lol but they have to have the ablility to function to the task on hand despite their challenges.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> What may help is if you can get her to associate outing with getting a re bite. Its easier with a tug than a ball, but hold it still till she finally outs, and then pull it straight back and let her re bite, almost like she's chasing it. Encourage her to come towards you with it, don't go towards her like you're taking it.


I will try this, thanks


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel View Post
I don't know for sure what's at play in our case. This dogs loves to hold things, ball, stick etc... Loves fetch, tug, flirt pole, just doesn't want to out. We tried to remedy this to no avail. She returns with the object, stands there and will let you grab it, just won't release her grip and she seems pretty pleased about it like its part of the game.

What may help is if you can get her to associate outing with getting a re bite. Its easier with a tug than a ball, but hold it still till she finally outs, and then pull it straight back and let her re bite, almost like she's chasing it. Encourage her to come towards you with it, don't go towards her like you're taking it.

Inga does this too. I am trying to teach her to bring the milk cow and horses by their ropes and she won't let go. She does the Get it and Bring it but not Give it.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Let me say this again.
> By Selzer
> "There is a big difference between TSC here and PetSmart. TSC is populated by a different brand of people (here), most are country folks who have pets. PetSmart is populated by pets who have people. There is a different smell and a different feel to PetSmart, a lot more dogs per square foot. Go into PetsMart at any time, and you will see 6 or 8 or 12 dogs. At TSC, you might see 1 besides your own. So it is different. Also, since some PetsMarts have a vet, and I think all of them have groomers, there is likely to be a dog in panic mode in there, either terrified by just being at the vet, or nervous about the grooming and toenails, etc. Chances are there is a dog in there at any given time that is exhuding nervous, fearful behavior etc. And unless there is a vaccine clinic on the day, you will not meet any of that at TSC. So, they are different places, and your dog can be picking up on that.
> 
> ...


Okay, but what I'm saying is that while there's a big difference between Tractor Supply or the hardware store down the street or my liquor store (all of which welcome dogs), and PetSmart, a dog with solid nerves should be able to handle going into any of those places. If they can't, then that doesn't speak well to a really strong, solid nerved dog. It doesn't mean they're a bad dog, but it doesn't mean they've got great nerve either.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Sorry, on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. A very stupid dog will recover from a traumatic experience quickly also, and it has nothing to do with nerve strength. I have seen stupid dogs run out into traffic and get hit by a car, but never show any reluctance to run out into traffic later...doesn't make them strong nerved!


It has everything to do with nerve strength. Nerve strength is a way to describe the dog's reaction to and recovery from stimuli. 

Perhaps what you consider a "smart" dog is one that has a bit of nerves. Some nerves are good in a dog. You want your dog to react sometimes. A dog that is street smart or has "good common sense" is a dog with some nerves. Stuff scares them. Makes them nervous and they avoid or deal with it in some other way. 

A 100% solid nerved absolutely bulletproof dog, would not leap through fire to it's handler's defense in your example. The dog would need to perceive a threat in order to feel the need to defend. 

Nerves aren't black/white strong/weak good/bad. 

I like to think of it on a spectrum 1 - 100 

a 1 is a dog that flies into a full out frothing panic and dies of a heart attack at the sight of a butterfly

a 100 is a dog that will sit in the path of an oncoming tornado and die from a truck being dropped on it. 

I personally would like dogs that would score maybe between 75 - 95 on that scale - depending on what I intend to do with that dog and it's other temperament qualities (Good drive can hide weak nerve)



> I'm not saying your dog was stupid, but as an example of true nerve strength in a dog...maybe that particular incident isn't the best to cite?!


Hmmm... having been sprayed with gasoline and lit on fire while a bunch of teenagers stood around and laughed to later having zero fear issues period. No nervousness around the scent of gas. Or people. Or fire... Nope. Gonna keep using that as an example of excellent recovery and therefore solid nerves.



> Again, in my view courage stems from solid nerves. Weak nerved dogs seldom if ever display courage. So perhaps you're right and our definitions differ...


As @Sabismom pointed out... courage is acting in spite of fear. A dog has to be atleast a bit nervy to be courageous.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> It has everything to do with nerve strength. Nerve strength is a way to describe the dog's reaction to and recovery from stimuli.
> 
> Perhaps what you consider a "smart" dog is one that has a bit of nerves. Some nerves are good in a dog. You want your dog to react sometimes. A dog that is street smart or has "good common sense" is a dog with some nerves. Stuff scares them. Makes them nervous and they avoid or deal with it in some other way.
> 
> ...


Right, my patrol dogs often looked at me with that are you nuts expression but when I asked they came through like rock stars. I wouldn't want a patrol dog watching my back that was incapable of perceiving a threat!
Sabi whined like a worn belt when tracking humans, but did so while straining forward and eager. That is drive, leaking excitement.
Shadow cowering and pulling back for the door while whining is fear.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Citing the same IPO document that Steve quoted from earlier:



> Strong nerves allow the dog to react
> appropriately to his environment, and
> allow him to remain composed while
> under pressure or threat. Dogs with
> ...


IMHO a dog jumping into a fire after a stick does not qualify as a "proper judgement". As I said though, we can agree to disagree.



> a 100 is a dog that will sit in the path of an oncoming tornado and die from a truck being dropped on it.


That dog IS a box of rocks. > So you're absolutely right, if that's truly a strong nerved dog, I'll take nervy. I like a dog that can think under pressure, not one who is oblivious to it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Citing the same IPO document that Steve quoted from earlier:



IME IPO people have a slightly different (and more specific) view of "nerve" as it relates to their sport than more generalized dog trainers.

Here's a non IPO viewpoint on weak nerves:

Tuesday’s Tail: What is a “Weak-Nerved” Dog and how can you help him?




> That dog IS a box of rocks. > So you're absolutely right, if that's truly a strong nerved dog, I'll take nervy. I like a dog that can think under pressure, not one who is oblivious to it.


You are still thinking of it in a black/white fashion. A dog that is not "strong nerved" is not automatically "nervy".


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Is hardness nerve?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am curious as to what others think regarding how nerves, thresholds and even self preservation interrelate. Where this conversation has gone, I am not sure how one can be discussed without introducing these others.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Is hardness nerve?


I think that hardness is related to nerve, but not exactly the same thing. 

Nerve strength is really difficult to discuss online. There are varied definitions of it in different circles. Nerve strength overlaps with different aspects of dog's temperament and can paint very different pictures. It very much has a "I know it when I see it" quality. 

Personally, I like to think of hardness/softness as a way to describe multiple facets of temperament - the dog's nerve strength, drive, thresholds and even handler response. The way they all come together. 

Here's what Armin Winkler has to say on hardness



> Hardness
> Hardness is another term that is used too broadly. Dogs are generalized with this label. But what does hardness mean? Let's have a closer look at it. The Swiss behaviorist Dr. E. Seiferle defined this term the following way. "The ability to take negative influences and experiences such as pain, punishment, defeat in a fight without being affected significantly at the moment they happen or in the long term." In this definition, it is very clear, that the dog in question has to perceive the influence he is experiencing as adverse or negative and deal with it without being significantly affected by it.
> 
> When a dog is called hard, many interpretations are possible, unless more detailed examinations are done to truly assess a dog's hardness. In my mind, the first logical factor to assess is the dog's stimulus thresholds. For example, one of the influences specifically mentioned in Dr. Seiferle's definition is pain. But as I have already mentioned, dogs' pain thresholds vary a great deal. If a dog has a very high pain threshold, that means it takes a pretty severe physical influence to cause the dog discomfort. But if the dog does not perceive a physical influence as painful, can we really say that he is "taking" pain? I don't think we can. Not perceiving the negative gives us no indication on how the dog would deal with something negative.
> ...


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am curious as to what others think regarding how nerves, thresholds and even self preservation interrelate. Where this conversation has gone, I am not sure how one can be discussed without introducing these others.


Don't forget drive  

Absolutely they are all correlated. If we are using nerves as a way to describe the emotional reaction to stimuli... fear is absolutely integral in self preservation (as well as pain) it's very much an endocrine reaction. That is universal across most living organisms. 

The issue with domestic dogs, is our selective breeding of them. We have swung the genetic pendulum so far in our quest of purpose breeding - we have created individual animals, that from an evolutionary standpoint, are temperamental train wrecks. Dogs with screwed up prey sequences, too high of thresholds, too strong of nerve - to ever survive on their own.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Don't forget drive
> 
> Absolutely they are all correlated. If we are using nerves as a way to describe the emotional reaction to stimuli... fear is absolutely integral in self preservation (as well as pain) it's very much an endocrine reaction. That is universal across most living organisms.
> 
> The issue with domestic dogs, is our selective breeding of them. We have swung the genetic pendulum so far in our quest of purpose breeding - we have created individual animals, that from an evolutionary standpoint, are temperamental train wrecks. Dogs with screwed up prey sequences, too high of thresholds, too strong of nerve - to ever survive on their own.


I agree but I do not see self preservation as being a nerve issue. I view an organism's sense of survival completely separate from nerves although they are both based in genetics. I have seen weak nerved dogs have a powerful sense of self preservation and survival and I have seen a strong nerved dog have just as much a will to survive.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Don't forget drive
> 
> Absolutely they are all correlated. If we are using nerves as a way to describe the emotional reaction to stimuli... fear is absolutely integral in self preservation (as well as pain) it's very much an endocrine reaction. That is universal across most living organisms.
> 
> The issue with domestic dogs, is our selective breeding of them. We have swung the genetic pendulum so far in our quest of purpose breeding - we have created individual animals, that from an evolutionary standpoint, are temperamental train wrecks. Dogs with screwed up prey sequences, too high of thresholds, too strong of nerve - to ever survive on their own.


I think breed needs to be taken into account also. Some breeds were bred with very little self preservation. A game dog loses self preservation. But does that make them mentally stable?


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

The also have a high pain threshhold. Is that hardness if they just don't feel it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree but I do not see self preservation as being a nerve issue. I view an organism's sense of survival completely separate from nerves although they are both based in genetics. I have seen weak nerved dogs have a powerful sense of self preservation and survival and I have seen a strong nerved dog have just as much a will to survive.


How do you think nerves and self preservation are separated? 

In my mind, fear is needed for self preservation. 

A weak nerved dog feels fear at many things, including life and death situations

A stronger nerved dog feels fear at very few things, ideally limited to life and death situations. 

Both the weaker dog and the stronger dog feel fear, and that is from the nerves. One just has far far fewer instances that will trigger that reaction than the other. 

Too strong of nerves can result in a dog not identifying a threat. Too much drive can make a dog oblivious to a threat regardless of it's nerve strength.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> I think breed needs to be taken into account also. Some breeds were bred with very little self preservation. A game dog loses self preservation. But does that make them mentally stable?


Depends on your personal opinion on what constitutes a mentally stable dog. 

IMHO it makes them just as mentally stable as the malinois that follows the ball out of the second story window. Or the huskies that run themselves to death. Or the lab that will retrieve until it collapses.

ETA: Also.. a game bred dog doesn't just out right lose self preservation. Any lack of self preservation they have would be when in drive, only in situations where they would be facing a badger.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> The also have a high pain threshhold. Is that hardness if they just don't feel it.


I think a higher pain threshold (lack of reaction to a negative stimuli) could fit into the definition of hardness a lot of people use. I wouldn't say it is the complete picture, but could be a part of it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> How do you think nerves and self preservation are separated?
> 
> In my mind, fear is needed for self preservation.
> 
> ...


Nerves permit for a reaction of some sort to fear as long as self preservation and other traits are present. I believe both are standalone characteristics. Nerves are more of a measure of resiliency toward what life throws at a dog. A lack of self preservation is more a disregard to what a life throws at a dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> ETA: Also.. a game bred dog doesn't just out right lose self preservation. Any lack of self preservation they have would be when in drive, only in situations where they would be facing a badger.


Don't really want to get off topic here, but there is a challenge among city thugs where they inflict pain and injury to try to elicit a bite from their game dogs. The dogs endure without barking, growling, snapping or biting. I would guess that the dogs are not in drive during this challenge. Is this bite inhibition? Strong nerves? High pain threshold? Lack of self preservation? How would you describe this lack of reaction? I honestly can't see a weak or a strong nerved GSD submitting to the same.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't really want to get off topic here, but there is a challenge among city thugs where they inflict pain and injury to try to elicit a bite from their game dogs. The dogs endure without barking, growling, snapping or biting. I would guess that the dogs are not in drive during this challenge. Is this bite inhibition? Strong nerves? High pain threshold? Lack of self preservation? How would you describe this lack of reaction? I honestly can't see a weak or a strong nerved GSD submitting to the same.


Let's not forget that "gameness" is a trait in many breeds that have very distinct temperaments from one another.

Can't just use "game dogs" in place of a breed name. 

Depending on the breed characteristics and the individual dog's temperament - it can be a variety of factors. I wouldn't discount pack drive or rank drive either considering the person hitting them are the owners. Also some breeds do display a genuine lack of human aggression and low defensive drives that can take a LOT to get them to bite a person. I could see a few other breeds with low active aggression not responding to confrontation with fight either. Many dogs will default to flight and if they can't do that they shut down.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I agree a lot of factors are involved, but I stand by my comment that nerve and lack of self preservation are standalone genetic traits. I believe that "gameness" may be genetically linked to a lack of self preservation dependent on breeds and lines.

For a dog that has been previously set on fire to voluntarily run into a fire, IMO, is not a reflection of strong nerves, although that dog may have strong nerves, but is a manifestation of a lack of self preservation.

With GSDs, especially when young, many do not let strangers interact with their puppies/dogs so that they may keep a puppy/dog focused on them and so the puppy/dog does not look to the stranger for good things to come. Others don't care for stranger interaction because one bad interaction with a stranger, just like with another dog, can wreak havoc. Once bitten, twice shy.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I believe that "gameness" may be genetically linked to a lack of self preservation dependent on breeds and lines.


Gameness is linked to prey drive if anything.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Most huskies actually won't run themselves to death, that is why many sprint mushers go with hounds and pointers "eurohounds" or "scandinavian hounds" and win, because a hound and pointer will run to the death. And they are notoriously stupid, as well. Many mushers who are less interested in winning, stick with huskies, because they are more savvy and intelligent. But they do take more training and experience on the part of the musher, to get them to perform. 

I've never owned a malinois that would chase a ball off a two story building. My dogs would watch the ball fall, then find the stairs, and sniff out the ball once they were on solid ground. A malinois that is so drivey he loses any sense of self-preservation is not a dog I'm interested in. That video "you think you want a high drive puppy" does not show a dog in drive. But I digress. 

I agree there are big differences between self preservation, nerves, and drive. And certainly people in working dogs have preferences for the type of dog they prefer.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> Let's not forget that "gameness" is a trait in many breeds that have very distinct temperaments from one another.
> 
> Can't just use "game dogs" in place of a breed name.
> 
> Depending on the breed characteristics and the individual dog's temperament - it can be a variety of factors. I wouldn't discount pack drive or rank drive either considering the person hitting them are the owners. Also some breeds do display a genuine lack of human aggression and low defensive drives that can take a LOT to get them to bite a person. I could see a few other breeds with low active aggression not responding to confrontation with fight either. Many dogs will default to flight and if they can't do that they shut down.


My Danes response to an attack on my son was to simply get in the way and stand there getting torn up. At no point did she defend herself but every time the dog attempted to get past her to the stroller she would step in the way. I don't even know what would cause that. Clearly a lack of any sense of self preservation.

I did get the dog off her eventually and she needed stitches but was ok.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Gameness is linked to prey drive if anything.


GSDs are genetically prone to high prey drive with many over the top and IMO they are far from game or lacking in self preservation. I have not seen a natural inclination or drive in a GSD as a whole,* unless trained*, to take things to the finish with most naturally stopping at submission of their prey/opponent or at a point of concern regarding their own self preservation. One of the hardest things to train a GSD is to attack or keep attacking a passive target.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs don't know what dying is. They don't connect danger to dying the way we do with thought processes. They do have self-preservation on a very instinctive level. That a dog darts out of the way of a blow does not necessarily mean he has weak nerves. It may mean that he is not going to take a blow if he doesn't have to. 

GSDs are sometimes passed over for seeing eye work because a bird dog will do what is asked every time, when well trained, including the necessary disobedience where there sight is what the whole point is -- i.e. they won't walk a blind person into a hanging beam, even if the blind person commands the dog to do so. But a shepherd will sometimes think about the situation and find a quicker route or whatever. 

I have heard people defend police dogs that are huge babies at the vet and must be handled by their officer because they will not allow certain things. This is never attributed to weak nerves. I get the impression that a dog with a stronger personality may not accept things a less strong-minded individual will readily accept. 

Yes, a dog of good character/nerve should be manageable in PetsMart, the outdoor grill or ice cream stand, TSC, or many other places, like dog shows, veterinary clinics, grooming salons, parades, and so forth.

A bitch coming into heat, may indeed have some quirky days. If after the heat cycle is over, things go back to normal, no harm no foul. I wouldn't hold it against her, especially a young bitch in her first few cycles. Hormones are pretty powerful, and each bitch does respond differently. Some bitches may have an off day or two in training, another will exhibit some nervousness in a situation that before was no issue. I suppose if you were to over-react to such a situation, dragging the bitch toward the item she was spooked by, or flooding her, it could last beyond the heat cycle. But mostly, heat-related behavioral changes go away with the heat and are nothing to be concerned with. 

When the owner of an intact bitch, wonders at the bitch's behavior, "I wonder if she is coming into season", it is not all baloney. 

When a police dog owner excuses poor behavior at a groomer or a vet, well, maybe there is something to the independent/dominant traits, that make them good for what they do, and is not nervy behavior. And if a dog breaks a stay when something is hurtling at them, well, I am not so much concerned with a single reaction as I am with the recovery of the reaction. As for a dog set afire doused in gasoline, why are we even having that discussion? Could it not be more a trait of intelligence or memory than nerve if the dog reacts to being doused with gasoline again? I don't even like to think of such a horrible thing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The point with the dog set on fire was that at a later date, the dog voluntarily ran into an open fire to fetch a stick and did NOT go into avoidance.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

For the OP:
I don’t know if this has been mentioned already but you said Inga is almost 2. I would expect to see some changes in how she views the world as she matures. (like suddenly barking at people on the street) She’s becoming more aware of her surroundings and GSD’s often alert by barking…nothing unusual there. 

Whining when you get to the parking lot…If she calms down once she figures out she’s not going with you I’d chalk it up to excited anticipation. It would be different if she barked the entire time you were in the store but you said she’s calm when you come back out. 

Petsmart – You may never know why she doesn’t like that store and it very well could be because of what happened when she was young….dogs have amazing memories. Honestly if it was me I’d leave her home or in the car when a trip to Petsmart was on the “to do” list. It all depends on how important it is (to you) for her to be able to go into all the places you go. I took all my dogs to pet stores etc. when they were puppies for socialization but not anymore. Piper (5 years old) pretty much goes everywhere I go but most of the time she waits in the car. I can’t think of a good reason why she needs to be walking through Home Depot etc. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The point with the dog set on fire was that at a later date, the dog voluntarily ran into an open fire to fetch a stick and did NOT go into avoidance.


Dogs live in the present. Dogs do not necessarily connect the dots (that's fire, I could die). With the lack of the highly potent accellerant, the two situations are not the same. Fire is something most animals have an aversion to, darting into a fire after a stick is no sign of good nerve.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Dogs live in the present. Dogs do not necessarily connect the dots (that's fire, I could die). With the lack of the highly potent accellerant, the two situations are not the same. Fire is something most animals have an aversion to,* darting into a fire after a stick is no sign of good nerve.*


Not so sure how it is a sign of nerve, good or bad.

If it were so simple as living in the present, one would not have to worry about a bad experience with another dog resulting in a reactive dog.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Whiteshepherds said:


> For the OP:
> I don’t know if this has been mentioned already but you said Inga is almost 2. I would expect to see some changes in how she views the world as she matures. (like suddenly barking at people on the street) She’s becoming more aware of her surroundings and GSD’s often alert by barking…nothing unusual there.
> 
> Whining when you get to the parking lot…If she calms down once she figures out she’s not going with you I’d chalk it up to excited anticipation. It would be different if she barked the entire time you were in the store but you said she’s calm when you come back out.
> ...


Selzer>Yes, a dog of good character/nerve should be manageable in PetsMart, the outdoor grill or ice cream stand, TSC, or many other places, like dog shows, veterinary clinics, grooming salons, parades, and so forth.

A bitch coming into heat, may indeed have some quirky days. If after the heat cycle is over, things go back to normal, no harm no foul. I wouldn't hold it against her, especially a young bitch in her first few cycles. Hormones are pretty powerful, and each bitch does respond differently. Some bitches may have an off day or two in training, another will exhibit some nervousness in a situation that before was no issue. I suppose if you were to over-react to such a situation, dragging the bitch toward the item she was spooked by, or flooding her, it could last beyond the heat cycle. But mostly, heat-related behavioral changes go away with the heat and are nothing to be concerned with. 

When the owner of an intact bitch, wonders at the bitch's behavior, "I wonder if she is coming into season", it is not all baloney. 

Thank you, you and Selzer. I will keep the board informed of the young bitche's behavior once she is no longer in or coming into heat.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> GSDs are genetically prone to high prey drive with many over the top and IMO they are far from game or lacking in self preservation. I have not seen a natural inclination or drive in a GSD as a whole,* unless trained*, to take things to the finish with most naturally stopping at submission of their prey/opponent or at a point of concern regarding their own self preservation. One of the hardest things to train a GSD is to attack or keep attacking a passive target.


Gameness is similar to what GSD folks refer to as "fight drive".

Prey animals are not passive in their demise. They fight back. They are dangerous. At some point a wild canine has to take risks, be bold, and fight. Otherwise they starve. That tenacity has been selectively bred in some breeds. Heavily so in working terriers and dachshunds. I have read accounts that actually described gameness as the willingness to fight for survival. An opposite take on the "lacking self preservation" opinion. 

Gameness does not mean attacking a passive target. Just the opposite really - it's the working drive to keep going no matter how tired they get regardless of injuries. However, most of the game terriers were and are used for hunting and vermin control. They have full prey sequences where as GSDs tend to lack the "kill" part. 

Gameness and prey drive are linked and work together but are not one in the same. But meh... this is a GSD board. We don't need to get into the breed traits of teckels, jagds, kerrys, and other working terrier types.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The point with the dog set on fire was that at a later date, the dog voluntarily ran into an open fire to fetch a stick and did NOT go into avoidance.


Actually... the point was that after the horrible abuse by a group of 4 young men that resulted in a lot of physical pain and damage the dog did not show any avoidance or other fear behaviors around anything. Not strange men, weird smells, the type of environment it happened in, or anything at all. 

I regret mentioning his bondfire incident. That was not the point I was trying to make at all. Poor choice of wording on my part. 

I lived and worked with that dog for a year. He had really good nerves. I was simply trying to give an example of how a strong nerved dog recovers from a traumatic experience when we were discussing the OP's dog still having a substantial fearful reaction a year after a comparably mild traumatic event.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Some people believe fight drive does not exist, some view it as a point between prey and defense. Others believe fight drive is standalone.

Prey animals can be passive in their demise (sometimes being passive is all they have left), and they may be passive in their defense (think playing possum). Just look at how many people have problems with their GSDs chasing their fearful cat that runs yet gets along fine with their cat that does not (passive defense).

I don't consider a terrier going to ground and needing to be pulled out by its tail or dug out of a burrow with a shovel as a dog fighting to survive but a dog fighting to finish, injured or not. For it to be considered a fight for survival, its opponent needs to be doing more than fighting for its own life. The opponent needs to be fighting to take down the terrier, to be offensive, not defensive.

A part of gameness is absolutely to keep attacking its target. Gameness is deeply entrenched in fighting to the finish without regard to self preservation or regard to the submission of its opponent.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Actually... the point was that after the horrible abuse by a group of 4 young men that resulted in a lot of physical pain and damage the dog did not show any avoidance or other fear behaviors around anything. Not strange men, weird smells, the type of environment it happened in, or anything at all.
> 
> I regret mentioning his bondfire incident. That was not the point I was trying to make at all. Poor choice of wording on my part.
> 
> I lived and worked with that dog for a year. He had really good nerves. I was simply trying to give an example of how a strong nerved dog recovers from a traumatic experience when we were discussing the OP's dog still having a substantial fearful reaction a year after a comparably mild traumatic event.


Inga was fine in Petsmart after that toddler incident, it was 16 months ago. I take her in there every few months to get bird food. It is recently she acted this way, about the same time she started whining going into parking lots. I watched her closely today. It is a happy whine, her tail is carried high and her head is high. She is not whining when I come out, she is just lying down. The Petsmart behavior, I will try that again when she is out of heat to test that.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

voodoolamb said:


> I lived and worked with that dog for a year. He had really good nerves. I was simply trying to give an example of how a strong nerved dog recovers from a traumatic experience when we were discussing the OP's dog still having a substantial fearful reaction a year after a comparably mild traumatic event.


Maybe the dog identifies that store with receiving a strong correction rather than from a traumatic experience like being attacked by another dog. It sounds like she wasn't doing anything wrong when the little kid was running up to her and the next thing she knew she'd been body slammed into a counter? 
Who knows... maybe in her head she doesn't think she's supposed to be in there so it makes her anxious? (NB I'm not implying you did anything to intentionally hurt her, I get that you reacted quickly to protect the kid) 

I knew someone who taught their Australian Shepherd not to go in the road using physical corrections. When she tried to get him to walk on the road he'd whine and cry. (maybe anticipating the correction??)


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Yet she got over being slammed and I also yelled NO! (to the kid) Poor dog but she was OK with going in there again multiple times since then. It has been just lately that her behavior in there has changed. I don't like Petsmart either, its a different type of people and attutudes, They give me bad vibes because I'm not All Positive and I'm not a "pet parent". I only go in there because I have a Shama Thrush, a songbird that comes from India and they only eat insects. I buy mealworms in Petstupid. I am begining to think Inga has PMS.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

What about these drives? There is Prey drive. Prey has been suppressed in Inga all her life. She is not allowed to chase chickens, calves, cows, ponies, horses, wild ducks on the pond, deer- nothing. She preys upon sticks. She preys upon the flirt pole. You see Prey dogs in ScH biting the helper but they are wagging their tails. What about fight drive and defense drive? In defense, the dog is not defending the handler, it is defending itself, right? What other drives are there?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Pack drive, rank drive, fight drive (although as MAWL mentioned fight drive is a debated topic).

A final thought. Because of the complex, multi-dimensional nature of elements that combine and contribute to an exhibited behavior, taking drives, thresholds, nerves, and perception/exposure/experience/degree of hardness or softness, and other environmental ques into consideration, I do not believe for 1 second that any assessment of nerves based on someone else's perception and description of a single event can be considered to be anything but wild speculation. In fact, I don't believe any assessment of nerve strength based on a single incident is valid, witnessed first hand. Yes, even strong nerved dogs can have bad days for a variety of reasons! 

But, if using terms like genetic-based nerve issues, or lower situational soundness are helpful in understanding and or addressing a given dog's behavior, then it's a useful shorthand. The thing is, IMHO terms like these are used too frequently and often perceived as offensive...so, not so helpful, nor an accurate assessment. Just my opinion...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not so sure how it is a sign of nerve, good or bad.
> 
> If it were so simple as living in the present, one would not have to worry about a bad experience with another dog resulting in a reactive dog.


Reactive dogs are trained to be reactive by their owners. A young dog suddenly decides that other dogs are scary or to be played with, and barks. The inexperienced owner tightens up on the lead, pulls him back, tells him it is OK (when it is not), or worse. Then goes home totally embarrassed. The next time they take the dog out, and every time after until they get help with the dog, they start tightening up the lead and spewing fear signals to their dog before the dog even reacts. The dog is reading the owner, and reacts. 

If the dog is uncomfortable up close to other dogs, and is pulled out of the proximity, or the other dog is pulled away from the maniac dog, then the barking and lunging achieved the dog's purpose. Win! If the trainers tell you to sit over there and feed your dog treats -- win-win. 

Owners that have no leadership skills at all, and not much of a relationship with the dog take him out and subject the dog to one situation after another, flooding the dog with animals and providing no indication that they have anything under control. The dog has to sink or swim. He chooses to bark and lunge and the owner then makes everything worse by coddling, or pulling the dog back and becoming fearful, nervous, angry, irritated, whatever. 

It is highly dependent on how the owner acts or reacts, what is going to happen with the dog's behavior. I had a puppy who at her first class, barked her fool head off almost the entire class. It was embarrassing. I did not take her to the side and pump treats into her. I took her out a few times, and brought her back in. Highly annoying. I did not subject her to other dogs or people the following week. I just went back to class the next Saturday, and she barked a few times, and stopped the nonsense. The following week, with nothing in-between and no reaction at all. We made it to 4 classes out of six, before the Classic in December. Then we had a set of six classes the following spring where we went 4 times. No barking, even though there were different dogs. That summer we did some outside classes for a couple of weeks, and then she went into heat at the end of July. I did nothing with her until December when I took her to the Classic and got her title. Huge show, a thousand or more dogs and all of the entourages. I never crated this dog before, I bought a crate, put her in it, then walked off to check in and get my arm band, map, she was crated for the walk-through, and afterwards while I took off for about 15 minutes to get her a hot dog. Nothing, no barking at other dogs, no whining, no craziness. First show, and she was coming into heat. 

This dog was not dragged to PetsMart or TSC or to dog parks or really anywhere. No flooding. No rewarding. No punishment. No prong or e-collars. So, you will say she was not dog-reactive. No, she is not dog reactive. But if I did the crap that so many owners are doing these days, if she did not have confidence in me to take care of her, then I think she would probably be a reactive dog. There are some dog aggressive dogs out there. There are. But the vast majority of dog-reactive dogs, are dogs trained by their owners to be reactive. 

Yes, you can train a dog and it will stay with them, usually by repeating a behavior a number of times, and praising or punishing the dog's response. A single traumatic event does not necessarily train a dog, though it can, especially if our reaction to the event prolongs it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Reactive dogs are trained to be reactive by their owners. A young dog suddenly decides that other dogs are scary or to be played with, and barks. The inexperienced owner tightens up on the lead, pulls him back, tells him it is OK (when it is not), or worse. Then goes home totally embarrassed. The next time they take the dog out, and every time after until they get help with the dog, they start tightening up the lead and spewing fear signals to their dog before the dog even reacts. The dog is reading the owner, and reacts.
> 
> If the dog is uncomfortable up close to other dogs, and is pulled out of the proximity, or the other dog is pulled away from the maniac dog, then the barking and lunging achieved the dog's purpose. Win! If the trainers tell you to sit over there and feed your dog treats -- win-win.
> 
> ...


My comment was about the burned dog that you commented on, not OP's dog.

Selzer: "Dogs live in the present. Dogs do not necessarily connect the dots (that's fire, I could die). With the lack of the highly potent accellerant, the two situations are not the same. Fire is something most animals have an aversion to, darting into a fire after a stick is no sign of good nerve."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My comment was about the burned dog that you commented on, not OP's dog.
> 
> Selzer: "Dogs live in the present. Dogs do not necessarily connect the dots (that's fire, I could die). With the lack of the highly potent accellerant, the two situations are not the same. Fire is something most animals have an aversion to, darting into a fire after a stick is no sign of good nerve."


As it clearly states by posting your quote, I was responding to your quote which addressed reactive dogs as dogs not living in the present. I was not commenting on the burned dog or the OPs dog, just your statement about reactive dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> As for a dog set afire doused in gasoline, why are we even having that discussion? Could it not be more a trait of intelligence or memory than nerve if the dog reacts to being doused with gasoline again?





MineAreWorkingline said:


> The point with the dog set on fire was that at a later date, the dog voluntarily ran into an open fire to fetch a stick and did NOT go into avoidance.


Your comment led me to believe that you thought the dog DID react to being exposed to fire again when the conversation was about the how dog did NOT react. I thought you might appreciate the clarification. I apologize for my error in judgment. 



selzer said:


> Dogs live in the present. Dogs do not necessarily connect the dots (that's fire, I could die). With the lack of the highly potent accellerant, the two situations are not the same. Fire is something most animals have an aversion to, darting into a fire after a stick is no sign of good nerve.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not so sure how it is a sign of nerve, good or bad.
> 
> If it were so simple as living in the present, one would not have to worry about a bad experience with another dog resulting in a reactive dog.


I hope this synopsis clarifies the confusion about my comments on the burned dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Sorry, but if she can't get over something like that, that would be bad nerves.


I do not buy this. Some experiences stick with you. Take the vet for instance. Dogs that have bad experiences don't forget and they do act differently. When Robyn tore her nail, they put her under(twilight) so that she didn't have a bad experience that would lead to issues at the vet. It didn't matter what her nerves are, an experience that is not good sticks.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Dogs and women are effected by their hormones differently. Some have mild PMS, some have severe PMS. Some do not have it at all. 

I agree about dog reactive - you get what you pet. Now, a dog bitten by another dog as a puppy might be dog reactive for life. It happens.

I have found Big box stores to be useful in proofing behaviours. She likes going in there. All the distracting people and things, the machinery moving lumber (you can't go on that isle). I also have found the stores useful for learning close heeling on a J shaped leash. Turning down the different narrow isles makes her focus. In the past, Inga had some problem turning to the left. You had to bump into her because she was not focused. I use the prong collar so she won't start to pull. Its like having a light hand on a horse's reins. They yield and you instantly loosen the rein.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your comment led me to believe that you thought the dog DID react to being exposed to fire again when the conversation was about the how dog did NOT react. I thought you might appreciate the clarification. I apologize for my error in judgment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uhm, ok. I was just responding to a specific quote, the one about reactive dogs. I kind of live in the moment. It kind or helps to put the quote that I am responding to in the post, which I did to avoid confusion. Not sure why it did not quite work out.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

OK, just as I thought Inga was coming into heat. Yesterday she started spotting. On walks she pees tiny amounts about every 30 yards. I took her to town, didn't unload her, and drove through the parking lots. I did not hear any whining back there. I will try the Petsmart test after this is over.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Might not be wise to take her to petsmart if she is in heat.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

As I said I am not taking her into Petsmart until her heat is over.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh, missed that part, sorry!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I do not buy this. Some experiences stick with you. Take the vet for instance. Dogs that have bad experiences don't forget and they do act differently. When Robyn tore her nail, they put her under(twilight) so that she didn't have a bad experience that would lead to issues at the vet. It didn't matter what her nerves are, an experience that is not good sticks.


Thats because you think I'm using it strictly as a pejorative, knocking the dog. All I'm doing is saying where that behavior comes from in their temperament. It ain't prey drive, hunger, hunt, its nerves. If sticking with them leads to panic, that's not good.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga's breeder says the female line has what he calls "bitch PMS". Inga is not avoidant of the place, (checkout line in PetSmart) where the bad thing happened with the charging toddler. She was not avoidant of Petsmart until the last couple of weeks. If, after her heat period is over she is not avoidant I will chalk this up to hormones and yes, probably genetic.

Being in healthcare, I am interested in human females. My own mother did not have PMS and I did not PMS. Yet I have heard many horror stories about PMS. In addition, as a horse woman I have kept many mares. PMS in mares is a thing, in some mares that is.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I do not buy this. Some experiences stick with you. Take the vet for instance. Dogs that have bad experiences don't forget and they do act differently. When Robyn tore her nail, they put her under(twilight) so that she didn't have a bad experience that would lead to issues at the vet. It didn't matter what her nerves are, an experience that is not good sticks.


On this point I will respectfully disagree. I owned a dog who as an 8 week old pup had her skull cracked open and was then thrown out of a moving car. That should stick in your head. Steady as a rock, loved car rides and was everyone's best friend.
Owned another that spent the first year of his life being tortured, beaten and neglected. He was fine after initial adjustment, bit of irritation at some people, super protective of me but fine.
Pulled a young GSD and her mom out of a pen that we literally had to cut the lock off. Mom took a bit to adapt but is a great and stable family pet. Morrigana, the younger dog, came out of that cage with a lick and a wiggle. Gave the vet kisses, met every challenge head on, showed no fear and no avoidance of anything. She was about a year or so old.
My first not mentionable came from a fighter, had been horrifically abused and was about 4 when I got her. Other then the scars you would never have known.
Fostered a 5 year old GSD who had his mouth held shut with bailing twine while his owner beat him nearly to death. The trial indicated that the authorities had been called repeatedly to the residence because the neighbors could hear the dog screaming over the course of 3 YEARS! Tired of the complaints he started tying the dogs mouth shut. It was only that a neighbor saw the dog laying in the yard that night that saved the dogs life. He was an absolute love, a joy to be around, showed no ill will to anyone. After his recovery he went to a very nice family.
Police dogs are often injured on the job and go back to work. MWD are exposed to things that scare people, they do their jobs. Megan Leavey? That dog got blown up and was put back to work, in fact continued to do his job that day.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Sabi, after taling care of so many poor creatures like that I am suprized you ar not avoidant of the human race. 

Megan Leavy- that was a true story movie that helped me get over my avoidance of the human race.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Just an update. 

Inga has now gone out of heat (her third heat). Took her to town yesterday, no whining. Went to petsmart, no problem. She just walked around in there like she used to. In fact, she seems to have changed and its a good way. I think it might be that magical maturity I hear about. 

Used to, when I came out in the morning to feed the stock she always ran around like a nut. Now she comes out, takes care of business, then sits and watches over me and whats going on, like a shepherd or something. Today is her second birthday.


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