# Is it worth it??



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I know that people train their dogs in this type of sport for fun, competition, or just to have protection. This is something I would want to do with Troy down the road. 
My question is, has there ever been a time where you or someone you know had to tell their dog to attack/protect them in a harmful situation?
I'd very curious to learn how many people this has happened to.


----------



## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

I am curious as well


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Is it worth what? The work?

Whether your dog will protect you is a case of genetics. SchH training is about obedience mostly but was, and in some cases still is, a way to test not only if your dog has a protective instinct but more importantly, if he has the rest of what a GSD should possess...meaning nerves, courage, willingness etc.
My first SchH 3 dog did protect me on two occasions. One was an attempted car jacking and the other was a case of a man lurking in a place that made both my dog and I suspicious of his intentions. My dog held him in a hold and bark while I made my way to my car and then called my dog to me. Some of that was the training but the ability that dog had, to read the situation and respond with an appropriate level of aggression, was genetic. 
I would say learning about your dog by participating in IPO is "worth it". Depends who you train with I suppose. Everyone does things a little differently and you would need to find where you and your dog fit in.


----------



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Yes if the work you put into all of the training worth it.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

And besides being worth it, most dogs love it as a sport.


----------



## BoyOhBoy!! (Apr 30, 2015)

Bella67, I have a mixed dog that was never trained in protection, only obedience. He protected me from a guy swinging a golf club at me. He lunged at the guy (on leash), snatched the club and the guy ran off! This completely shocked me, I had no idea my gentle boy had it in him! The sounds he was making and the snapping! Whew! I'd never heard or seen that behavior! Of course he was happy with his prize (the club). 

I think you have a dog who will _most likely_, by instinct, protect you. Training in protection will refine that instinct and offer your pup an intense and fun challenge  Training of any kind will also reinforce the bond your pup has with you. I think you should go for it!

Mom to Remi


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

not all dogs are able to do IPO...they either have it or they don't and the ones that don't and are still brought to the field for protection aren't enjoying it. I have seen my share of dogs that don't want to be there, the helper works them in prey, and hopes to engage them. If that is accomplished, once they get the reward they practically drag the handler off the field to end it, instead of pushing it back into the helper for more. 
Good helperwork can do wonders, but many dogs just don't want to do the protection phase.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I would say learning about your dog by participating in IPO is "worth it".


This right here! 

Schutzhund is something you have to be self motivated about, because a lot of the training is off the field and by yourself. It also becomes a life style!

A lot of blood, sweat and tears!


----------



## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> not all dogs are able to do IPO...they either have it or they don't and the ones that don't and are still brought to the field for protection aren't enjoying it. I have seen my share of dogs that don't want to be there, the helper works them in prey, and hopes to engage them. If that is accomplished, once they get the reward they practically drag the handler off the field to end it, instead of pushing it back into the helper for more.
> Good helperwork can do wonders, but many dogs just don't want to do the protection phase.


This is interesting topic. I guess the question is: why would any dog want to do the protection phase? The answer is: they get something from it, they get rewarded. I guess no dog enjoys real fight from birth, they need to be taught to enjoy it (fight "drive"). But many dogs enjoy prey games. If a dog doesn't enjoy prey games, but is more defense driven, what might happen if that dog is still being trained (rewarded) with prey? First they are pushed to defense with postures etc. then a sleeve is tossed in their mouth, like "now dog, ENJOY!". What should be done instead is to really show some clear submission to this kind of dog, that's the only way to get him engaged for real. Of course, if the dog doesn't have even defense drive, then it's kinda hopeless situation and that dog shouldn't be trained.

I've seen some dogs that do everything okay on the field. They engage, they bite hard, they channel between prey/defense, but they don't enjoy, like you said. Maybe it's because they are old school defense driven dogs that should not be trained like a malinois. They should be shown some respect and submission. Prey monsters like malinois do not care, they just want to bite bite bite... Of course this is just a rough and maybe naive simplification, but just a thought on the subject.

Another thought: maybe the handlers don't enjoy themselves? Some dogs are very sensitive to pick up handler moods...


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jarrko, there are dogs that enjoy the fight almost from birth and are not into play/prey games yet do not look at the helper as a threat (defense). These are the dogs that actually have "fight drive". They want to dominate, control and defeat their opponent. Yes, they have prey and defense, but the "fight drive" is the over riding reason why they do bite/protection work. 

The sort of dogs Jane is talking about DON'T want to be on the field. They are there because their owner is dragging them out there. They lack any desire to do protection work because they lack the drives to do it AND the nerve to do it. A good helper can baby them along, but the real dog will eventually show up when put under any type of pressure (like a trial). These dogs should not be worked, but many are. The owners don't want to admit their dog is not suitable and not happy and the helpers enjoy the money they get for working the dogs.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh no Jarkko , there are dogs that are born with great desire to dominate an opponent - just the need to never arises . Completely agree with Lisa . This type of dog seems to be disappearing . Decoy work is all prey play . The dog with fight drive never gets to reveal the power in prey play . By and large they are so confident , so unflappable that they don't grab your eye . The dog who comes on the field all hyper and excited gets the interest , yet generally will not have that quiet will to win , no matter what or how much pressure is put on him in fight .


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Worth it for me!

- It's a social event for me. I love hanging out with a club, talking dogs, pedigrees, current trial results, training theories.
- I learn more about all my dogs when training in IPO.
- Along with the above, the things I learn trickle down into other aspects like other sports I do, how I manage dogs at home, how I plan to train future dogs.
- It is challenging but that makes the success very rewarding.
- Unlike other sports I've done where I go to a class, pay for my time on the floor and my instructor's ear, and am basically in it for myself/my dog, SchH/IPO clubs have an atmosphere where everyone is helping everyone. A dog earning a title or getting on a podium is a success for the entire group!
- It is FUN!
- This is what GSDs are bred to do, it gives them the opportunity to have their drive and energy channeled into something challenging yet constructive (in addition to us learning about our dogs and sharing in our success).


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good post Lies. 

Putting on the Admin hat; let's leave PERSONAL attacks out of the discussion (two posts removed) and stick to discussing ideas. You do not have to agree, but you will disagree in a civilized and polite manner.


----------



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Yes good posts on why it is worth it. But only one user really answered my question.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I do not think the fight drive dogs are getting harder to find. IMO they were always pretty rare. I have trained with very few dogs like this. Most are working out of different drives. Some of the dogs now, though, are not as balanced as dogs of old, leaning more towards the crazy prey, Mal type, drives and many are too thin in the nerves making them easier to work for most helpers. NOT ALL, obviously. I still get to see some very nice dogs, but not as many that give me the chills and the "wow" feeling I used to get watching the dogs in the 80s and 90s. Well..... to be honest, even then the "wow" dogs were pretty rare. 

I will definitely disagree with Carmen, though, that helper work is all prey based now. Depends on where one trains. I see some very good balanced work, I see some prey based and then I see some defensive based. There are still good helpers out there.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nobody can answer the questions. 'is the work worth it'

It's subjective. It's worth it to me but it may not be worth it to you. 

If you want to try it, then do it. Go enjoy your dog. Personally, I like tracking more than the other phases. Other people prefer obedience. And many want the grand finale of protection. Totally subjective.

As far as the dog following the command to bite in a real situation? Depends on the dog. I know dogs that would and some that wouldn't.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sorry, we did get off topic. 

Funny, the only time I have had to use my dog because I felt in danger (and she didn't have to bite) was before I had started in SchH. For me it isn't about training a dog for personal protection (I have done that too), it is about testing my dogs to know that they still possess the drives and nerves necessary to protect. The training also gives me the obedience control over my dogs in a high stress situation. They won't just react and do what they think should be done. IPO is also fun.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jax, I also like the tracking phase the most.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Jax, I also like the tracking phase the most.


It's just sooo very quiet.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As far as the real protection, SchH didn't do that, it's in the dog's genetics or not, but SchH DID help show me what to expect. I now know how my dog will react, where his threshold is, how much he can take. I know how to turn him on and off, call him off (which I have done "in real life" when a stranger entered my hotel room). I am way more confident handling my dog in ALL situations because of his obedience and protection training. Even though SchH is a routine with a sleeve, the training can be whatever you want it to be so we've done some suitework on many different decoys and even some "double blind" tests where I was not aware someone was going to shove me while we were talking about my dog's obedience and the dog reacted before I even realized what the decoy was doing.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Schutzhund is a sport and anymore just a sport. It's all prey for most dogs, and if that sleeve wasn't on the decoy most IPO dogs probably wouldn't bite. So for me it's well worth, just working my dog and learning and the social aspect, but I don't think anyone should depend on their dog for protection just because it's been trained in IPO. Don't trust your dog until you've truly tested your dog, hidden sleeves, etc. 

My decoy is great, but definitely not fond of Berlin as a sport dog. Berlin doesn't have that high drive of top notch sport prospects, so he really needs to be pushed into defense to bring out good bitework. The second pressure is taken off him, he's back to his doofy self.

My decoy 'jokes' - "if I were you, I would sell your dog for a personal protection dog, make 25,000$, and then buy 3 sport dogs!" Maybe it's just me, but I prefer my dog without all the sport drive


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I do believe the helperwork is key if you have a dog that may be harder to engage, and to balance the prey and aggression. I see people posting videos often of helpers working dogs and it is not who I'd want to have my dogs take bites from. 
Bella, there are some really good clubs in your area, I'd get with one(not the business that also does pet stuff) and have Troy evaluated. The people in the clubs are usually really good trainers and you may make some contacts to help you work through the stages he will go through as he matures.


----------



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

how much does it usually cost to get him evaluated?
I'm going to be moving to FL in the fall time so I can't really pay any long term club fee's but getting him started on something would be fun.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

most clubs don't charge for an eval. I'd go to a couple and see what each has to say. You can also get a feel for the different dynamics per club.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

it shouldn't cost you anything to get him evaluated at a club


----------



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

would this place be a good option? It was suggested to me from one of the members Home
Or any others in the area?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

yes, John is great, but contact them first to see if he'll be there. They do train during the week too.


----------



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I just sent him a email.


----------



## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

Do you guys know if John does private training at all?


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Most IPO dogs if you take the left arm away won't bite. They run up don't see their target and go straight into a bark and hold. Whether or not the sleeve is present doesn't even matter. You see the same issue with PSA dogs trained to go for left arm bicep. Take the target away and they don't bite at all. A French ring or mondioring dog with proper targeting work and a civil streak WILL nail you without the suit being on if you agitate them and from there getting them to bite you passive isn't hard.

Great IPO dogs can easily be taught to go for other targets and bite civil. It's just a matter of a little extra training. Doesn't mean they stick it out in a fight but you can definitely get great solid nerves dogs to at least make someone bleed.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Saw a trial in Maryland a few months ago with a bunch of PSA 3 dogs and IPO 3 dogs trying to get a MR 1 where the decoy did nothing on the face attack but present the left arm and as the dog was coming pull the left arm behind his back and dropped a weak right arm stick barrage. He held all but one dog doing it.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Just a pro tip while I'm thinking about it. If you ever have a dog and thinking about doing multiple dog bite sports and any of those include French or mondioring always always always teach the dog to bite legs first before moving onto arm sleeve work.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

SDA is my other sport of choice. My dog prefers it over IPO, whenever he gets the chance.


----------



## Rosco810 (Sep 16, 2003)

I am a member of John's club. I am not sure if he does private lessons. He has a day job and trains police dogs on a couple of days that aren't club days. You could ask him though


----------



## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Jarrko, there are dogs that enjoy the fight almost from birth and are not into play/prey games yet do not look at the helper as a threat (defense). These are the dogs that actually have "fight drive". They want to dominate, control and defeat their opponent. Yes, they have prey and defense, but the "fight drive" is the over riding reason why they do bite/protection work.


Ok, I believe you, there are dogs who want to "fight", but "fight drive" I was thinking is what Raiser was talking about in his book (Der Schutzhund). It is a combination of drives (prey/defense), skills and courage from maturity, and also experience of winning over fearful enemy. That won't happen until the dog has been trained and the defense drive has been developed with exercises that put the dog in defense. If I recall it correctly, Raiser was talking about 24+ months of age. Raiser says this is essential for training a solid dog that can handle changing environment and a real enemy. For him, Schutzhund wasn't only sport, it was a test for dogs working ability. 

I'm guessing you are talking about is some kind of generic disposition, which is of course essential and visible when you tug and play with dogs in the prey drive development phase?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, I, and others, believe there is a separate drive that isn't just defense and prey. These dogs want to dominate, control and over power their opponent. They are not trying to take down or obtain prey and they are not working out of a desire to ward off a threat (defense). 

As an example; I used to have chickens. Dogs love to chase them and would kill them if they didn't learn at a young age that wasn't allowed (prey). I also had a rooster that liked to attack the dogs. The dogs would generally chase him away or try to attack him if he tried to spur them (defense, driving away a threat). I have one bitch, though, that would actually go looking for him. She would push the hens and my roosters (I had 4) until the one attacked and then she would grab him and pin him on the ground. She would do this to people too if I allowed it. This dog gets great joy out of the fight, out of bullying, pushing and dominating. 

Raiser talks about fighting drive. I have read his book many times.  And yes, that was the purpose of SchH. It was a test of the dogs to help us chose our breeding stock so as to maintain the GSD as a utilitarian working dog. It was never about sport and, for me, it still is not about sport (even if I enjoy participating).


----------



## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

lhczth said:


> No, I, and others, believe there is a separate drive that isn't just defense and prey. These dogs want to dominate, control and over power their opponent. They are not trying to take down or obtain prey and they are not working out of a desire to ward off a threat (defense).
> 
> As an example; I used to have chickens. Dogs love to chase them and would kill them if they didn't learn at a young age that wasn't allowed (prey). I also had a rooster that liked to attack the dogs. The dogs would generally chase him away or try to attack him if he tried to spur them (defense, driving away a threat). I have one bitch, though, that would actually go looking for him. She would push the hens and my roosters (I had 4) until the one attacked and then she would grab him and pin him on the ground. She would do this to people too if I allowed it. This dog gets great joy out of the fight, out of bullying, pushing and dominating.


Ok, agreed! I believe I recognize this type


----------



## JRZ91 (Feb 23, 2012)

*Ver worth it!*

Fairly new Schutzhund and in a short two year span I've learned more than I thought there was involved. It's very rewarding being around more exprienced handlers and helpers and just soaking it all in. My current dog won't be taking me to any national level events but has shown me how much fun a handler and dog can have.

Side note with regards to the more sporty vs. "real" dogs, in my short time doing helper work the dogs that have higher defense and higher fight drives are way more fun to work vs. your more "sporty" type dogs.


----------



## ploss (Jun 26, 2014)

Bella67 said:


> I know that people train their dogs in this type of sport for fun, competition, or just to have protection. This is something I would want to do with Troy down the road.
> My question is, has there ever been a time where you or someone you know had to tell their dog to attack/protect them in a harmful situation?
> I'd very curious to learn how many people this has happened to.


I haven't been in the sport very long and have never had to deal with a real threat with my dog. And, honestly, I think he would look at me like I was crazy if I gave him a protection command out of context (ie. no helper, no sleeve). 

But, my TD did tell us a story last week that helps to show the utility of IPO training in real life protection scenarios. Our TD is retired K9 officer and had a series of K9 partners over a long career. One partner, a Czech dog, was also his IPO dog that he titled to a Sch 3. And, he claims that the IPO training did help in certain protection situations on the job. The "bring" command in trial tells the dog to fetch the dumb bell. Anyway, this officer said that if he had to do a building search for a perp, he would give his k-9 the "bring" command and sure enough, the dog would run into the building, grab the "dumb bell" and drag him out of the building by his arm. No more building entries for the officer! Now, whether or TD was pulling our legs or not, I will leave up to you to decide! But I am choosing to believe him


----------

