# Thinking of becoming a breeder



## mycobraracr

Over the last couple weeks my GF and I have been talking about starting our own breeding program. The more threads I see on here about how the GSD is not what it's supposed to be, makes me want to do it more. I'm thinking once I retire my current dog from sport I will get my foundation started. I'm excited for what the future may hold.


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## cliffson1

@ Mycobraracr.....I have been in this breed for a long time and bred my first litter of knowledge in 1975. If the breed was in the same state as it was then and I was younger and know what I know now....I would go for it. But the status of the breed today makes it very difficult to breed successful GS in line with what fairly represents the breed. The proliferation of specific lines created out of backmassing of the gene pool, make the task of breeding very daunting to say the least. The onset of many more health issues often derived from these breeding practices, also make breeding very difficult today. Is it possible....sure! Many things are possible but not plausible. I wish you the best if you decide to do this, but I feel sad that you have to attempt to breed through the mess the breed has become today. 
This Mycobraracr, is being said from a breeders perspective, and does NOT reflect ANYTHING negative about pet or sport dog owners.


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## Chris Wild

It can be daunting, frustrating and depressing at times... but also very rewarding. The breed needs more GOOD breeders. People who are involved in GSDs and the GSD community, and who gain knowledge and experience with the breed *first* before pumping out puppies. And who have an understanding of what the breed is about and a strong dedication to preserving that. All categories you'd definitely fit into. So go for it!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Chris Wild said:


> It can be daunting, frustrating and depressing at times... but also very rewarding. The breed needs more GOOD breeders. People who are involved in GSDs and the GSD community, and who gain knowledge and experience with the breed *first* before pumping out puppies. And who have an understanding of what the breed is about and a strong dedication to preserving that. All categories you'd definitely fit into. So go for it!


The more good real responsible breeders out there, hopefully people will start to get the message and start going to them when looking for their next puppy.

Good luck!


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## lhczth

Chris Wild said:


> It can be daunting, frustrating and depressing at times... but also very rewarding.


Frustrating is an understatement.  It is getting harder and harder to find males that will bring what I want to my females without bringing negatives I don't want added to my lines. Then finding buyers who are looking for a GSD and not some extreme of one sort or another. 

I had a person contact me who was looking for a dog for competition who wanted an extreme dog with a long bite like a Mali. Then I get the ones looking for a prick eared soft couch potato. Two extremes, neither GSD. 

Start with the best female you can find, work her, title her and make no compromises. If she works out, hope to a find a male that will bring her balance, keep the best female from that litter, and so on and so on.


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## carmspack

the GSD needs good new breed stewards , because in breeding that is what you do . It is a responsibility . You have one to the health and welfare of the breed and you have a responsibility to those that choose the breed to work with , live with . Quality . Not quantity. 
Could not have said it better than Chris or Lisa . 

There is nothing more rewarding and gratifying than producing dogs that have made positive contributions in work , even though the accomplishment is not out there with some acknowledgement on paper . There is no title for "law enforcement dog who stands off bear , continues track, locates, makes clean apprehension of dangerous suspect " .
That's what keeps me going .


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## mycobraracr

Wow! Thanks for all the encouragement. From all of you it really means a lot. It saddens me to read that LE and Military are going to other breeds mainly because of nerve issues and what not. I know not one person can fix it but I do feel I can contribute to bringing it back to a true utilitarian breed.


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## carmspack

I love your phrase "true utilitarian breed" because in my opinion this is where breeders have failed.

Addressing other threads - 60 minutes , old style training (?) which morphed into police ----- I get the feeling that some , not so involved , posters think it is all about aggression. If you were to look at procurement requirements from both brokers and departments each would want a sound , stable , dog that is focused and able to work around excitement and distraction. They want a dog that is approachable , not fearing or being aggressive when in groups of people . So much for the image of the nasty dog . A dog that is too aggressive is not a good prospect . A solid , bold , self confident dog does not look or act aggressive . There is a power that oozes from them . Control and trainability. Willing and bold to take on challenges. Hunt and search drive . Natural instincts for this hunt and search . Tracking drive .
The bread and butter of work is to locate and hold , locate and alert . Bite when necessary. 

utility, versatility.


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## mycobraracr

Thanks! Honestly that's one of the reasons I'm waiting until my current dogs are retired. One to give me more time to learn and work the breed but also I have come to the realization that my current dogs are on the "too sporty" side of things. I absolutely love my dogs and they are perfect for me but I'm not 100% convinced they are all that a GSD could be. I think my hardest thing right now is seeing what is the dog and what is training. I have learned through working some dogs that even a nerve bag can be trained through a lot.


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## Wolfgeist

I don't participate here anymore, but I needed to comment and commend Chris, Carmen and Lisa on their messages to OP. It's nice to see some genuine integrity in a thread.


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## Ocean

carmspack said:


> a sound , stable , dog that is focused and able to work around excitement and distraction. They want a dog that is approachable , not fearing or being aggressive when in groups of people ... A solid , bold , self confident dog does not look or act aggressive . ... Control and trainability. Willing and bold to take on challenges.


sounds like the perfect pet...you wont be able to sell all to LE, military, etc........pet homes need dogs just as good


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## Andaka

I would check out all of the different flavors of the GSD because you also need to know what you don't want as well as what you do want. You need to know the difference.


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## mycobraracr

Andaka said:


> I would check out all of the different flavors of the GSD because you also need to know what you don't want as well as what you do want. You need to know the difference.


Thanks for the advice. I know I want to stay working line. From where doesn't really matter to me. I think that will depend on the pairing and what I'm trying to get out of it. I'm currently very active in IPO, SDA and have recently gotten involved with AKC obedience. I've wondered over to the show ring but to be honest want to stay away from that(other than what I need for an SV rating). From what I have seen in my limited AKC show ring experience was not GSD's. Again I have very limited experience there and I'm sure they are not all like that. At this point I just know I want to breed dogs that can do anything and everything thrown at them.


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## x11

Andaka said:


> *I would check out all of the different flavors of the GSD *because you also need to know what you don't want as well as what you do want. You need to know the difference.


i resent that different forms exist and imo is a major part of the problem, are there different standards that dictate these different "flavours" or is it just like choosing yr favourite ice-cream which would make gsd breeders nothing more than candy vendors, lol the king of breeds has been reduced to a candy dog.

i stopped subscribing to clean run cos they published an article about how to take the herder out of the herding breeds - i really reacted to the concept. to me the two planks in the foundation that define the gsd are herding and and suspicion/aggression.

given that the first plank herding has rotted away in the junk pile to zero, along with all the valuable sub-traits that underlie it, we can at least try and retain some appropriatte suspicion/aggression. health should be assumed for all breeds so doesn't get a special mention.

remove this second plank as so many breeders are so bent on doing in order to have safe easy to handle dogs that suit the bulk puppy buyer profile then we are no longer talking about the gsd.

the claim to longetivity in the game is a false premise designed to mislead and impress the lazy of mind, i work with all kinds of people that have been around longer than me at whatever field - in fact thats all they got, they have been hanging around a long time, never occurs to them that duration does not imply quality it just implies duration.

the newbs did not make the mess so big deal anyone been there longer than me, i can make up my own mind.


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## DaniFani

mycobraracr said:


> I think my hardest thing right now is seeing what is the dog and what is training. I have learned through working some dogs that even a nerve bag can be trained through a lot.


Yes! I have absolutely no interest in breeding, the task seems so daunting and overwhelming. But the quote above is also SO true for buyers as well. I have looked at a lot of breeders, and being able to tell what is genes and what is training is by far the hardest task. It will be a LONG time, if ever, that I trust myself. I will use a mentor to help me for a long time to come.

I commend you greatly for wanting to better the breed and your ability to self evaluate and reflect. You are honestly evaluating your current dogs and want to breed the best of the best. Truly, good luck to you. I hope you don't become discouraged and overwhelmed.


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## selzer

mycobraracr, I wish you good luck. I think you will be good at it.


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## x11

here's the kicker, if he is not good at it in the sense of breeding great working dogs he can still be good at making money at it, so it's win, win.


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## selzer

x11 said:


> here's the kicker, if he is not good at it in the sense of breeding great working dogs he can still be good at making money at it, so it's win, win.


Were we talking about money? I thought we were talking about breeding dogs.


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## Sunflowers

x11 said:


> here's the kicker, if he is not good at it in the sense of breeding great working dogs he can still be good at making money at it, so it's win, win.


I was thinking he would be good at losing money, if he does this.

Ever check into what it goes into becoming a responsible breeder?


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## x11

Sunflowers said:


> I was thinking he would be good at losing money, if he does this.
> 
> Ever check into what it goes into becoming a responsible breeder?


never looked at the details as i have no plans to become one, i would imagine a good breeder has a low profit margin and a lot of intellectual input plus just a lot of work testing, testing, testing, following up on litters, trialling, staying up to date on broader issues etc.

i am more than happy to support such people financially and not try attempt it myself as i know my own limitations.


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## onyx'girl

DaniFani said:


> Yes! I have absolutely no interest in breeding, the task seems so daunting and overwhelming. But the quote above is also SO true for buyers as well. *I have looked at a lot of breeders, and being able to tell what is genes and what is training is by far the hardest task.* It will be a LONG time, if ever, that I trust myself. I will use a mentor to help me for a long time to come.
> 
> I commend you greatly for wanting to better the breed and your ability to self evaluate and reflect. You are honestly evaluating your current dogs and want to breed the best of the best. Truly, good luck to you. I hope you don't become discouraged and overwhelmed.


I recently suggested to someone to go look at dogs training so they could see the differences in lines, etc within a few of the local kennels.
There is a really good IPO trainer/helper that works many dogs and this place would be a good one to get a taste of the different lines and see what the kennels are producing. 
Of course this 'someone' would need to know what to look for during each training session because all dogs are at different levels...and teeth baring, barking may look impressive to some, but isn't always what it seems. 

I'm not sure the trainer wants people coming to observe dogs in training. And he certainly won't have time to answer questions, so the 'someone' will have to chat with the other handlers observing to learn what is going on and why. 
We always suggest, get out and see dogs in training, but how many clubs are willing to help visitors assess what they are seeing?


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## Sunflowers

x11 said:


> never looked at the details as i have no plans to become one, i would imagine a good breeder has a low profit margin and a lot of intellectual input plus just a lot of work testing, testing, testing, following up on litters, trialling, staying up to date on broader issues etc.
> 
> i am more than happy to support such people financially and not try attempt it myself as i know my own limitations.


Not GSD, but this is a good example:

Why Doe My Puppy Cost So Much | Price Of Quality AKC Lab Puppies | Summerland Labradors


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## x11

i don't breed, so no need. actually what am i saying, i already posted the pics of my litter. 14 not gsd's. all healthy and bar one in working homes and living up to the purpose of the mating plan. so sorry i guess i am a breeder.


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## Sunflowers

x11 said:


> i don't breed, so no need. Actually what am i saying, i already posted the pics of my litter. 14 not gsd's. All healthy and bar one in working homes and living up to the purpose of the mating plan. So sorry i guess i am a breeder.


lol!


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## Shaolin

How would you suggest someone start learning about breeding? Any recommendations on books...tips on how to read pedigrees and maybe giving an idea of how dogs are "put together" to create various drives and what not?

This is something I'm very interested in.


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## mycobraracr

onyx'girl said:


> Of course this 'someone' would need to know what to look for during each training session because all dogs are at different levels...and teeth baring, barking may look impressive to some, but isn't always what it seems.


 
This is why watching video is so hard. If you don't know what that particular session was aiming for then you don't know what you're seeing.


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## DunRingill

x11 said:


> given that the first plank herding has rotted away in the junk pile to zero, along with all the valuable sub-traits that underlie it


Oh? Guess I shouldn't tell Bunny that.......


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## x11

approximately zero


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## marbury

Shaolin said:


> How would you suggest someone start learning about breeding? Any recommendations on books...tips on how to read pedigrees and maybe giving an idea of how dogs are "put together" to create various drives and what not?


Find a mentor! Apprentice for a few years. You'll learn what to do (and what not to do, in some cases) and you'll have some whelps under your belt to boot.

In response to another poster prior, get involved in conformation. I know it's tedious and odd to folks who came into dogs as sport competitors, but putting titles on both ends is an excellent way to 'prove' your stock. We are all susceptible to 'kennel blindness'; putting your dogs out in multiple venues and getting feedback is the best way to avoid breeding in qualities that may not exemplify the ideal. There are so many beautiful stupid show dogs and so many brilliant ugly working dogs. Don't fall into the gutter on either side. If you don't like the politics of AKC show in another registry, like UKC. I prefer it because I like the judge to look at what I have on the leash, not who's holding it. Try international shows.

You don't have to spend half your annual income on a solid foundation bitch, but don't find her on Craigslist. Use the connections you make in your competition sports and in conformation to get where you want to be with the breed.


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## cliffson1

Hey Marbury, a little OT, ,but when I was showing dogs in the AKC ring I lived in Columbus, Ga. I had a female at that time that went reserve to the great dam Just a Joy of Billo......lol


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## Shaolin

marbury said:


> Find a mentor! Apprentice for a few years. You'll learn what to do (and what not to do, in some cases) and you'll have some whelps under your belt to boot.
> 
> In response to another poster prior, get involved in conformation. I know it's tedious and odd to folks who came into dogs as sport competitors, but putting titles on both ends is an excellent way to 'prove' your stock. We are all susceptible to 'kennel blindness'; putting your dogs out in multiple venues and getting feedback is the best way to avoid breeding in qualities that may not exemplify the ideal. There are so many beautiful stupid show dogs and so many brilliant ugly working dogs. Don't fall into the gutter on either side. If you don't like the politics of AKC show in another registry, like UKC. I prefer it because I like the judge to look at what I have on the leash, not who's holding it. Try international shows.
> 
> You don't have to spend half your annual income on a solid foundation bitch, but don't find her on Craigslist. Use the connections you make in your competition sports and in conformation to get where you want to be with the breed.


How would one go about finding a mentor. It would seem as if you would at least have to buy a pup from the breeder for them to even talk to you about it.


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## carmspack

lots of mentors on the forum .


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## mycobraracr

Shaolin said:


> How would one go about finding a mentor. It would seem as if you would at least have to buy a pup from the breeder for them to even talk to you about it.


 
It's no different than establishing any other relationship. Go out to events, meet people, talk to people. When you find a breeder you like talk to them. Eventually a friendship can be made. I wouldn't take the hey I want to become a breeder so mentor me approach  The dog world is a small one. Just by getting out there you will meet people fast.


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## DunRingill

x11 said:


> approximately zero


What's this in reference to? approximately zero what??


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## marbury

^ Exactly!

Join local chapters of clubs. Awkwardly appear on the margins during one of their monthly/bi monthly/thrice yearly meetings until someone acknowledges your existence and pretend its first grade again... make friends! Luckily, y'all already have something in common: DOGS! Get them talking about their experiences and you'll be welcomed back with open arms.

That's a great way to make contacts in your area, but this forum has taught me so much too. I don't log on much anymore, but I always find it informative. I came on here thinking I was a hot dog and already knew everything about anything because I was (at that time) working for a GSD breeder and I'd whelped a few of her litters. Big deal! I found out I was as young and inexperienced as I looked.
Now I work as a vet assistant, I've learned what NOT to do with my breeding program from the mentor I was under, and I made a whole lot of friends in the local community that showed me what to do _right_.

The best part? I still have not bred any of my own dogs. I got to spend three years on the path to perfecting a craft that I had no personal risk in. So when I do take that step I will have experienced a lot of the potential mistakes without leaving big dents in my heart or pocketbook.


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## mycobraracr

Yup this forum has been a HUGE help! I ask lots of questions on pedigrees as I'm trying to learn and see if what I see is accurate. Getting out there is a necessity though. I have met lots of people. I felt I was moving up in the GSD world when I had breeders sending me friend requests on FB haha. I feel I cant have too many contacts and people to get advice from. Another advantage we have is that my GF (only still my GF because I spend all our money on dogs and not rings) is a vet tech. So we have some medical experience as well as connections as well. I'm getting really excited to begin this adventure.


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## elisabeth_00117

Although at the moment (and near future) I have no intentions of breeding, I do still enjoy learning about bringing a breeding match together, learning the process from start to finish.

The forum and the breeders who participate have taught me so much and still continue to do so on a regular basis. 

Cliff is responsible for making me a pedigree junky. The way in which he speaks about the breed reminds me of the way my grandfather did. He wasn't involved in sports but did grow with the breed and worked hand-in-hand with the breed on a working farm when he was young. It makes me miss the dogs from the past without even knowing them. 

I also find meeting a lot of people in different venues (schH, obedience, herding, conformation and yes, even pet owners) has really opened my eyes to what the breed currently is.... where it was and even has given me, a direction to want to see it become (or maybe, go back too is the right words here).

I just want to say a big thank you, to those who have contributed to the breed and who have given us who have a passion for the breed (even if it is not to breed ourselves) a outlook to where we need to go in the future and the knowledge to recognize it.


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## Shaolin

I will definately look into different venues and start trying to figure out what I'm looking for in a mentor. Thanks for the advice.


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## selzer

Go to training, find the best trainer in your area and stick around past basic obedience. Work with your dog, go to shows. Keep your eyes open. Join a training club, and join a breed club. 

A mentor does not have to be GSDs only. In my years working with a local trainer, I met breeders doing shepherds, leonbergers, Rhodesian ridgebacks, dachsunds, and more. These are the people who are out there doing, not just breeding. 

I have to say that my GSD library that I had prior to meeting up with these people and joining clubs was pretty extensive. I think that if you just tell someone you want to be a breeder, they really want to know that you are serious about it. So you have to come into it with some basic knowledge.


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## Liesje

selzer said:


> A mentor does not have to be GSDs only.


True this. The two people who have helped me the most with things related to having a breeding male/stud dog are both Border Collie people. I'm talking stuff like how it *actually* works (what should the male do or not do, how do you help him, etc), referring good repro vets in my area, tips for AI if going that route, what tests to be doing or not doing....not really stuff that has anything to do with GSDs and their training or titling, but the nitty-gritty dog breeding stuff.


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## marbury

selzer said:


> A mentor does not have to be GSDs only. In my years working with a local trainer, I met breeders doing shepherds, leonbergers, Rhodesian ridgebacks, dachsunds, and more. These are the people who are out there doing, not just breeding.


Absolutely! It is, however, important to learn pedigrees and lines from a GSD person, since someone in Chinese Cresteds is not terribly likely to know the intricacies of the West German Showlines vs the Czech lines. :wild:


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## selzer

marbury said:


> Absolutely! It is, however, important to learn pedigrees and lines from a GSD person, since someone in Chinese Cresteds is not terribly likely to know the intricacies of the West German Showlines vs the Czech lines. :wild:


But they can explain to you why they chose this male to breed with that female. In that discussion, they will discuss the dogs behind the dogs. And it can show you what you need to know about the dogs you like. 

I don't know that every breeder has available to them another breeder who is interested in the same lines. And if you do, you can fall into a trap where you rely too much on one individual. You really have to entrench yourself in the dogs themselves and study their pedigrees. And gain knowledge from every available source.


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## marbury

We're agreeing, selzer. Don't worry. I was just making a funny!


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## pets4life

with more money (it is vvery expensive) 

the right dogs and another place I would love to try a litter one day but not with what i have now. 

Id prefer more training experience. Continue to see other working gsds in clubs like PSA, ring, Knpv??? and personal protection. More interested in certain types of gsd's. Would be a nice thing to do one day maybe. 

For now i prefer to just train what i have to the best of their ability in what i sarted them in. See how far i can take it. So much experience when i go to diff groups or events and see so many dogs worked.


the new czech border patrol phase has left a lot of people unhappy dissapointed with what they got. I think training and handling has a lot to do with it and i noticed all the best breeders know how to handle just about any dog and very good trainers as well.


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