# My Dogs’ Pedigree



## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Hello! I will start off by saying I am aware my boy is a mish mash of sorts but I was purely curious if anyone recognized any of the names or had any feedback on him. He just turned a year old in June, he’s a wonderful dog. Smart, willing to please, affectionate and playful. He is great in public and new situations, we are attending weekly agility classes and I’m hoping to enter him in a UKC conformation show next month. 

Thank you in advance 

5 generation long pedigree for Rio De Dinero


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I can't help you with pedigree, but what a handsome face. He sounds like a real sweetheart.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I don’t know, but he is beautiful.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you go back into the 5th generation on the dam's side you see some well known dogs, a couple in the 4th too. It can be interesting to go back from them and see different names that pop up in pedigree discussions. Some of them you can find video. I know on the Sire's side, Vegas is pretty well known.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The sire's side is mostly German show line, with some very well known dogs, if you go back 3 or 4 generations. Vegas who was 2x VA1 (German sieger, the highest placing for German show lines shows up twice in the 3rd and 4th generation

Dam's side is mostly working line, but with American showline dogs on the bottom (dam's side of pedigree). 

He is a very handsome boy, with good structure. Let's hope some of those good genes from way back overcome the more recent generations of pet breeding!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Link to pedigree with picture:Rio De Dinero

I LOVE this dog's structure!


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Thank you so much everyone for the compliments and insight! Rio is my first GSD, and was a surprise for me. One day after I got home from work, my boyfriend told me to get in the the truck and that he was taking me somewhere. About 20 min later we pulled into a drive greeted by two beautiful shepherds, with a yard full of romping nine week old puppies. Excited doesn’t even begin to describe how I felt! All of the pups were colored the same, so I spent some time interacting with them all to make sure I made the right choice. Rio came up to me, and happily plopped down on my foot and rolled over wanting belly rubs. While the other pups were more rambunctious, he would calmly observe. Needless to say, I didn’t know anything about lines and he is also my first AKC dog. I am so so happy with him and love him so much, and he absolutely adores me. 

I am super stoked to begin exhibiting with him in dog sports, and just enjoy having him in my life.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

He is beautiful! Sounds like fantastic temperament too. Enjoy <3


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dad is European show lines with some rather well known dogs, males mostly, in the 5th and, a few, in the 4th generations. Mom is a mishmash of lines. Czech, WGWL and then some "who knows what" AKC lines. Some of the Czech and WGWL are good dogs back a ways (4th and 5th generation).


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Thank you all for comments, I am very appreciative! I have a question and it is purely out of curiosity as I have zero intentions or interest of becoming involved in breeding. But for the sake of a rhetorical situation, would a dog like mine who is essentially a “purebred mutt” ever be able to prove himself worthy of a breeding program? Would a dog who has attained championship title(s) and ticks the marks in temperament and health testing be valued as such despite questionable lineage?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Due to his questionable lineage, you'd have a hard time finding good homes for the pups. You could probably get pet price for them on Craiglist, which is NOT how you get good homes for puppies!

A dog that hasn't been bred with a purpose, and a thorough knowledge of its ancestors and their strengths and weaknesses is not going to breed true. The quality of the puppies won't be consistent.

So, in a nutshell...no.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Thank you for an honest opinion, again I am not interested in bringing more dogs into the world but just thought I’d ask as food for thought. I would worry way too much about where they would end up! Even if I was a legit breeder with all the tokens to back it up and carefully screened the buyers. The lady that we got Rio from I occasionally update - out of a litter of 9 I am the only person that has bothered to contact her. But I honestly don’t think she cares either way. I couldn’t be like that.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Believe me, I know how tempting it can be!

I had a GSD rescue that was the smartest darn dog I've ever owned. Show him something 2 or 3 times, and he had it down cold. I am NOT exaggerating - if you want details ask.

Not only that, his loyalty to me was awesome, his temperament wonderful. I had his hips x-rayed, and the vet said they were the best set of hips he'd seen in a long time, though I never bothered submitting them to OFA. I trained him to be my first Hearing Ear dog as I am so deaf I can't hear much of anything once I take my hearing aids off at night.

Just one story: he was scared of water, because he'd been knocked off the end of the dock into deep water by another dog when he was a pup. 

I tried to get him over his fear by taking him far enough out into the lake that he had to swim just a few strokes, then taking him back to shore, and praising him. He was wearing a life vest for safety, but still, he just totally panicked.

After only 2 tries, I gave up, took the leash off, and went for a swim myself, leaving him on the shore. I swam to the edge of the cottage property, then turned to swim back.

As I turned, I saw he was in the water, swimming towards me. I firmly believe that his concern and love for me overcame his fear. We swam back to the dock together, then I praised him to the skies, took him up to the cottage and rewarded him with a piece of leftover steak!

He overcame his fear enough that he'd play in the shallows with my other GSD, but if the toy/stick went far enough out that he had to swim, he'd let my female retrieve it!

If I hadn't had him neutered at the age of 3, due to a prostate infection, I would have been REALLY tempted to get some pups from him.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I was tempted once when I had the most well behaved, solid temperament Rottweiler. This guy was all muscle, had great energy and drive, and was sociable to both dogs and strangers. Just a happy go lucky guy while off, and gave 100% when on. Nothing phased him. Barking aggressive dogs, screaming and running children, cats, he took it all in stride. He also had great hip and elbows. People would ask me to stud him out to their females, but I’ll be honest, I was never impressed with females they wanted to stud him to. Looking back on it now, I’m so so glad I didn’t. There are enough BYB’s out there, no need to add to the problem unless you’re certain both the sire and dam are bullet proof, and even after more than 25yrs of dog experience, I still consider myself a novice, and leave the breeding to the serious dog breeders who know all about lines and possible temperaments and health issues each different sire and dam could create. 

Just enjoy your guy for the great dog he is, and leave the breeding to breeders.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jchrest said:


> I was tempted once when I had the most well behaved, solid temperament Rottweiler. This guy was all muscle, had great energy and drive, and was sociable to both dogs and strangers. Just a happy go lucky guy while off, and gave 100% when on. Nothing phased him. Barking aggressive dogs, screaming and running children, cats, he took it all in stride. He also had great hip and elbows. People would ask me to stud him out to their females, but I’ll be honest, I was never impressed with females they wanted to stud him to. Looking back on it now, I’m so so glad I didn’t. There are enough BYB’s out there, no need to add to the problem unless you’re certain both the sire and dam are bullet proof, and even after more than 25yrs of dog experience, I still consider myself a novice, and leave the breeding to the serious dog breeders who know all about lines and possible temperaments and health issues each different sire and dam could create.
> 
> Just enjoy your guy for the great dog he is, and leave the breeding to breeders.


Just saying that I can't chime in on pedigreee but, all breeders have to start somewhere. 

My grandfather was a dog breeder and he'd take in the younger generation and teach them how to responsibly raise and breed dogs. We need MORE people responsibly breeding and caring about the breeds. People go to byb breeders and puppy mills because they're easier to access and find. The more we can get people caring, doing health testing, and learning there's a difference between two litters of $1500 puppies or $1000 etc the better. I've educated so many people who were actually really interested to learn. It was just something they'd never thought of and a lot of people just aren't as passionate about this as the people on the forum are. 

If we can start with getting even just basic health testing being a normal thing to do we'd be able to make such a huge difference. I know a breeder of hunting labs. AKC registered, health tested and parents are active hunters. He does occasion litters at $650 for a pup. (I know people put a lot of money into breeding.) but still I'd like to see more of that kind of thing. I get people say just leave it to the professionals. But that gets us no where. It's called the foot in the door method. Start small and work your way up. So start with stressing the importance of health testing and such. Yes I totally get wanting to discourage people from breeding but really most of the time all that probably gets accomplished is the people scoff and go and breed anyway and we lose the chance to make progress. 

Yes there is so much that goes into doing really good breeding but right now I really think even starting small would really help make progress. Or at least help in the lives of the pets. Yes temperament matters but at least we can help make it so people maybe don't get a heartbreaking health wreck of a just a pet. The dogs don't deserve that. Teach people if they're going to pay x amount + for a dog to expect at least health testing and papers if it's purebred. Right now people can sell mutts for $800+ without even first shots. Because the buyers don't know better.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

atomic said:


> Thank you for an honest opinion, again I am not interested in bringing more dogs into the world but just thought I’d ask as food for thought. I would worry way too much about where they would end up! Even if I was a legit breeder with all the tokens to back it up and carefully screened the buyers. The lady that we got Rio from I occasionally update - out of a litter of 9 I am the only person that has bothered to contact her. But I honestly don’t think she cares either way. I couldn’t be like that.


I know a breeder who sold a pup years ago to another breeder. Said pup has now disappeared and her original breeder is devastated. It has been years since anyone has seen the dog and we spoke not long ago of the agony of wondering everyday if she was ok, or alive. 
All she wants is to know that the puppy she bred was loved by someone. 
That is why I could never be a breeder, and off topic one of the reasons I stay with my dogs when euthanizing. The not knowing would kill me.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sunsilver said:


> Dam's side is mostly working line, but with American showline dogs on the bottom (dam's side of pedigree).




If you go WAAAAAAY back on the bottom side, on the dam’s dam’s side, there are Covy-Tucker dogs, also Sundance Kid. So, popular show dogs, American and Canadian champions and Grand Victors and Selects.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I agree with all that’s been said, there are too many good dogs out there that need homes. Even the pricey, well bred ones end up at times in dire situations. There are so many new litters posted every day on Craigslist, where anyone with cash can bring home a cute new puppy. It breaks my heart to think of all the dogs that are put down daily due to there just not being enough resources for them to be cared for and loved. Before Rio all my dogs have been mutts, and I say that with utmost endearment... they’ve all been wonderful in their own ways and honestly I can’t think of a single time any of them had a genetic issue. 

Like anything there is always something new to be learned, but most don’t go much past basic care and sometimes training. Also I’ve always been with my dogs when their time comes... as hard as it is, it would be so much more heart breaking to let them leave this world without their love next to them, you. You gotta be there for them no matter what, just as they are for you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

To maintain any breed of dogs, you need a breeder who knows the breed and you need the best examples of that breed matched correctly to be bred. I like hands on breeders doing something with not only their previous dogs, but the current ones that they're breeding. I like experience. So much of this comes down to trust in the breeder, you can see there's not always agreement on past dogs in a pedigree, so I just accept there's good dogs back there that people thought were worth breeding and I look at what someone has currently from what they thought were the right combinations.

A dog like yours, once all the dogs have been taken out of any particular venues and just bred, you always have a chance at a good dog, but anything that helps predict or put the odds in your favor are gone. The biggest problem for me personally at that point, is that people breeding that way generally skip over any health issues and checks. To me, the health checks like hips/elbows or anything else generally checked for in whatever pure breed is the absolute minimum someone should do.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@Kazel, I understand what you’re saying about the need for more ethical breeders out there, and you’re right, everyone has to start somewhere. But while health is important, temperament and drive are just as important. You can have an incredibly healthy dog, great elbows and hips, and that dog can still have weak nerves. Be fear aggressive. Be a resource guarder, have too much prey drive for the typical dog owner. I could go on, but I’m sure you get what I’m saying.

I had that experience with Lyka. She was a breeding bitch. Her health is and was crap. She was never socialized, with either humans or animals. She was rescued from the breeder by an 18yr old girl who couldn’t handle her, and couldn’t handle the aggression towards her own dogs. The day I was supposed to pick her up, she sent me a message saying she had decided to keep her. I later found out it was because she knew Lyka was pregnant and she wanted the pups so she could sell them. The thread is around here somewhere, but long story short, Lyka had the puppies, and as soon as she could, the girl finally handed over Lyka. Then puppies started dying and I ended up with the litter as well. They eventually all passed from distemper. 

The same girl, who went through all the lies and games to sell off a litter started breeding her own bitch as soon as she went into heat. No health testing, and she said the sire was an important. By that, she means that her two dogs, also purchased from a BYB, and siblings (different litters, same parents), were bred together and sold. She next started claiming the male was an important, and started studding him out as such. 

I’ve meet plenty of her litters in town. Weak nerves, fearful, aggressive, many don’t even look purebred. One bitch she studded out to had such bad hip problems, she was PTS after her final litter. You know, when she was no longer a use for her in the owners eye.

That’s what you’re mainly going to end up with. People who know the correct way to breed, but don’t want to spend the kind of money it takes to breed ethically. They prey on the people who know nothing about puppies, or lines, or health, and send the puppy out the door with them after letting the new owner pick there own pup. 

The 18yr old is still breeding, but she’s 23 now. She’s knows all about health and temperament testing, but doesn’t do any of it, and doctors papers to make it look like she has them health tested. Again, the average pet person wouldn’t know what to look for. 

As far as starting out, and selling the pups for cheaper, you’re going to get less quality owners. Sounds sad, but people are willing to pay $500 without papers just to tie them up outside as a “guard dog.” Or to breed another generation of weak nerved and poor health dogs. 

When you ask for $1,500 (which I still consider cheap), you’re much more likely to get serious owners who know what they are doing with the puppies. You’re less likely to end up with a nerve basket full of puppies, and the health testing and titling that goes into the dogs before being bred are expensive as all get out. The breeders need to recoup cost somehow, and more often than not, the money that goes into each litter doesn’t even break even for the owner. So they are spending money breeding quality than they are getting back from the litters. 

Anyway, not a breeder, so anyone that breeds, correct me if I’m wrong ?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Kazel said:


> Just saying that I can't chime in on pedigree but, all breeders have to start somewhere.


 It is super common for people to start out, or "begin somewhere", with a dog that turns out not to be breed worthy. I was a dog show kid, way back in the 70's. And many people who were active in the sport started out with a purebred, registered dog that wasn't competitive for whatever reason (poor conformation, some color fault the owner didn't know about, temperament issues, etc.). Sometimes these dogs were purchased from the newspaper, with breeders that were just reproducing their own registered, purebred pet. Sometimes they were purchased from mall-type pet stores (which were huge back then).


The point is they had a dog and went to some shows and learned a lot from other people. They never bred the first dog, because they had become knowledgeable enough to recognize why that would not be a good idea. But they went on to become avid show people and good, responsible breeders with other dogs that were breed worthy. 



I know a local woman who breeds some really, really nice Goldens. Her dogs, or dogs of her breeding, are often in the top ten nationally and she routinely shows up in the group at Westminster. She started with a back yard bred dog, learned a lot about the breed's standard after the fact and moved on from there. That first dog was never bred. 



So, yes, people have to start somewhere. And that doesn't mean breeding their first step into the dog sport world. 

Sheilah


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

sit said:


> It is super common for people to start out, or "begin somewhere", with a dog that turns out not to be breed worthy. I was a dog show kid, way back in the 70's. And many people who were active in the sport started out with a purebred, registered dog that wasn't competitive for whatever reason (poor conformation, some color fault the owner didn't know about, temperament issues, etc.). Sometimes these dogs were purchased from the newspaper, with breeders that were just reproducing their own registered, purebred pet. Sometimes they were purchased from mall-type pet stores (which were huge back then).
> 
> 
> The point is they had a dog and went to some shows and learned a lot from other people. They never bred the first dog, because they had become knowledgeable enough to recognize why that would not be a good idea. But they went on to become avid show people and good, responsible breeders with other dogs that were breed worthy.
> ...



My breeders have to start somewhere was in reference to people saying to just leave it to the professionals basically. Instead of saying learn to do this they say don't even bother learning, just leave it to people who already know what they're doing. Which is how you keep ending up with people who don't know what they're doing. 

And not in regard to your comment I quoted Sheilah.

I know countless people who are willing to pay top money for a dog and treat it like crap or use it as a status symbol. I myself wasn't willing or able to at the time pay $1500 for a puppy but I'm not going to tie my $150 puppy out in a yard, in fact she's spoiled but well trained and is currently sleeping in her dog bed next to me. But the GSD Shelby was one of those no health testing $1500 puppies and was treated like dirt. I know many people who, especially with 'aggressive' breeds which like it or not German shepherd are in that list and will pay a lot of money just to tie it out. They want the best but don't care a wit about the dog. Meanwhile the majority of the good homes I know aren't people who will pay $1500 for a dog. There are too many people out there who think a dog is just a dog or it's all in how you raise them. That's why I say start with health testing because it's a physical thing you can focus on to get people more interested in the breeding behind their dogs. I speak about trying to get things going with the general public because that's where perceptions would have to change. You can't argue responsible breeding matters with people who only believe it's all in how you raise them. You have to get them thinking and point out specific things so they're open to learning and accepting more rather than just saying they're wrong. And the fact is health issues are easier to point out than temperament issues who people will say is because it's how they were raised. 


And at that I'm going to leave this thread because I don't want to derail it too bad and this is a whole mother subject. ?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> If you go WAAAAAAY back on the bottom side, on the dam’s dam’s side, there are Covy-Tucker dogs, also Sundance Kid. So, popular show dogs, American and Canadian champions and Grand Victors and Selects.


dogfaeries, you will have to look VERY VERY hard to find an American lines pedigree WITHOUT those two lines!

The one American dog that made ME sit up and take notice was Stormfront's Brawnson: 
Stormfront's Brawnson

Many breeders would give their eyeteeth to have HIM in a pedigree! :laugh2:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> dogfaeries, you will have to look VERY VERY hard to find an American lines pedigree WITHOUT those two lines!
> 
> The one American dog that made ME sit up and take notice was Stormfront's Brawnson:
> Stormfront's Brawnson
> ...


Huh???


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve, grand-dam's side, 7 generations back. Too far back to have any influence of course, but he's there!

I always like to see the 7 generation view when looking at pedigrees. It shows up any backmassing you might have to worry about.

And I meant American as in AKC registered, not American lines. >
Sorry if that caused confusion!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, I got that. The Covey Tucker Hill and then American dog reference about him is what threw me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> dogfaeries, you will have to look VERY VERY hard to find an American lines pedigree WITHOUT those two lines!
> 
> *The one American dog that made ME sit up and take notice was Stormfront's Brawnson: *
> Stormfront's Brawnson
> ...


I like him. Half brother to Buds sire.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I’m so glad this turned out to be a nice discussion! Stormfronts Bronson definitely has an impressive set of accolades, even though he is so far back is it crazy to say when I see his photo I also see him in Rio? I think it’s mostly his expression. 

I certainly understand having a “starter” dog before deciding to endeavor in breeding. Most don’t start with the best of the best in anything, and how else are you supposed to know if you are really truly interested unless you actively involve yourself? Also... I am far from the rich, but I always love and care for my dogs the best I can. There are many, many others like this too and without aspirations of competition/breeding $1500+ is really a hunk of change for what is essentially a pet. It can be very daunting, not saying the cost isn’t justified but it’s a really tough sell to “normal folk”. Especially since non registered dogs can still compete in sports. 

Lineage and history is so interesting to me, it is so neat to be able to plug in a name on the internet and obtain photos and info right away. Wish I could do the same for my other dog!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I don't want to pollute your thread with pics of Bud. But looking at that last picture of your very handsome pup the facial resemblance is pretty remarkable.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Please post! I’d love to see


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

He was 12 in this pic but the expression and the facial markings are very similar. His face was darker when he was young, more like your boy. Bud was all WL, so shorter ears and more square muzzle.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

My boy’s pedigree has 5-5 with Stormfront’s Bronson. Heard he was an amazing dog.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I love him! What a handsome gentleman . I can also see a resemblance, isn’t it neat how certain traits show through despite such a genetic gamble?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

atomic said:


> I love him! What a handsome gentleman . I can also see a resemblance, isn’t it neat how certain traits show through despite such a genetic gamble?


I was just looking at Ozzy's face as well. 

Bud would only be related to either of your dogs a generation further back through Arko Honest, and if I could find something other then one blurry pic on Pedigree Database you would probably find that the looks come from there.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

By pure curiousity, I googled Arko Honest after you mentioned him being the common denominator. And I found a post that you made in 2014 asking about him  I truly enjoyed reading those who offered personal insight.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Reading descriptions of his attitude and personality reminded me of Bud. And talking to others with dogs descended from him makes me think he stamped future generations very clearly even if he isn't as recognized as some. Stormfronts Brawnson was his only well known progeny but I suspect that he contributed much more.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@OP.....I think your dog has a very interesting pedigree, with very good genetic diversity. If health checks, ( Elbows and Hips ) are in order, I think a well thought out match for him would be productive,( of course any breeding SHOULD be well thought out), depending on whether you wanted to strengthen the sire side or the dam side. Of course take this with a grain of salt as it goes against conventional wisdom on this thread.....but if you want to pm me I can go into greater detail.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> @OP.....I think your dog has a very interesting pedigree, with very good genetic diversity. If health checks, ( Elbows and Hips ) are in order, I think a well thought out match for him would be productive,( of course any breeding SHOULD be well thought out), depending on whether you wanted to strengthen the sire side or the dam side. Of course take this with a grain of salt as it goes against conventional wisdom on this thread.....but if you want to pm me I can go into greater detail.


WOW...Do you know how rare this is? People who come here asking are almost always advised not to breed their dogs. And here you get opposite advice, and you didn’t even ask about breeding him! How exciting! Not to mention that your boy would make gorgeous pups.

How wonderful, that’s such a GSDs are still out there. This made my day.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> WOW...Do you know how rare this is? People who come here asking are almost always advised not to breed their dogs. And here you get opposite advice, and you didn’t even ask about breeding him! How exciting! Not to mention that your boy would make gorgeous pups.
> 
> How wonderful, that’s such a GSDs are still out there. This made my day.


I truly wish I had found this forum when Bud was still young. With the network of knowledge on here perhaps it would have been possible to save that line. And with access to all the experience he really could have been something. I always said he was wasted with me. @atomic you have a very stunning dog that may have some real potential. And I agree, that is some high praise. You should be very proud.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

For me, the main drawback of this dog's lines (other than the American pet breeding) is the German show line dogs on the sire's side of the pedigree, especially Vegas. Vegas was so overangulated and had such a steep croup that he couldn't do a proper trot at all. I have a photo of him trotting on a loose leash, and he's still lifting his front end in order to give his back end time to complete the stride. His front legs are still in the air while the hind legs are touching down.

The TROT is a two-beat gait, folks. Always has been, always will be. I am not going to let the GSL people tell me this is correct.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I am so grateful for this forum and the knowledge and experience that comes along with its members. I am a researcher, I love learning everything I can about my interests. I don’t have family other than my mom, so my dogs are my main source of attention. They offer so much in the form of love, loyalty and joy they really light up my life. I am BEAMING with pride over the comments made about him here. I am so excited to start exhibiting him in dog sports, he loves his agility classes and I have hopes for competing also in conformation. I acknowledge the issues with the German show lines being too extreme, but I do not believe Rio inherited those traits. I could offer photos and/or video of his movement if it would be helpful. Again thank you all for your insight and comments 

I forgot to add that Rio is within standard. Last I measured he is 25” and 75 lbs


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Your dog has definitely taken after the working line side of his pedigree in his structure, and I like his structure a LOT!

Umm...I said that already, didn't I?:grin2:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> For me, the main drawback of this dog's lines (other than the American pet breeding) is the German show line dogs on the sire's side of the pedigree, especially Vegas. Vegas was so overangulated and had such a steep croup that he couldn't do a proper trot at all. I have a photo of him trotting on a loose leash, and he's still lifting his front end in order to give his back end time to complete the stride. His front legs are still in the air while the hind legs are touching down.
> 
> The TROT is a two-beat gait, folks. Always has been, always will be. I am not going to let the GSL people tell me this is correct.


My feeling is that every dog has drawbacks as do every “line”. Yet, we can breed away from drawbacks and we can also breed to strengthen aspects that are needed or desired.


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## Markobytes (Sep 11, 2012)

We all have opinions based on our experiences and knowledge. My knowledge of West German Conformation lines extends past knowing that there is an Ursus and a Vegas. The video of Vegas has been discussed on another forum, and it is clear to those who have actually handled a dog in a German style ring, that Vegas was avoiding obstacles, the fault wasn’t in his gait. To someone who thinks an American AKC gait is superior, Vegas looks flawed. 
A comment on the pedigree; Roy on the sire’s side stands out as the most desirable dog on that side of the pedigree. Roy brings a modern breeding that has a strong temperament, outstanding athleticism, and solid conformation. It can go well with what the Vegas line brings, and perhaps with the old school West German breeding that is on the maternal line.
You have a lot of different, responsible breeding in the pedigree. For whatever reason it came about, wether they knew it or not, it all might have come together to make a great dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Markobytes, could you please clarify what you mean by this? There are no obstacles in the German SV ring.
If you would like to take this to PM to avoid pulling the thread off topic, I'd be fine with that.



> and it is clear to those who have actually handled a dog in a German style ring, that Vegas was avoiding obstacles


Edited to add: it took me quite a bit of searching to find Roy, the dog Markobytes is talking about, so here's the link to his pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=521056-roy-terrae-lupiae


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> @OP.....I think your dog has a very interesting pedigree, with very good genetic diversity. If health checks, ( Elbows and Hips ) are in order, I think a well thought out match for him would be productive,( of course any breeding SHOULD be well thought out), depending on whether you wanted to strengthen the sire side or the dam side. Of course take this with a grain of salt as it goes against conventional wisdom on this thread.....but if you want to pm me I can go into greater detail.


I am glad someone said this. Esp someone with a lot of experience. Because I was reading this thinking...if the dog proves out, then why is he sub par?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'd rather see a dog with a mish mash pedigree get bred if he turns out to be put together well physically, passes health clearances, proves his temperament in some venue...

Than a dog from EITHER showline with extreme and awful conformation, or an awful temperament.

Maybe some generations in there with no health clearances but what about the extreme line breeding in some of the showlines...wouldn't that be just as likely to pop up something nasty?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@atomic....having not seen your dog, I formulated my opinion of him based on his genetics. Looking at his structure, from a phenotype perspective he is much more breedworthy than 80% of the GS that I see these days. 
Now having said that, I don’t believe all genetic diversity is good, nor do I believe that a lot of lines that breed for specifics is good. But with this particular pedigree,I could see a potential for a nice dog and also a pathway to continue to produce breedworthy dogs.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Thank you all for your feedback, I never imagined I’d receive the responses I have but I guess it’s true you just don’t know unless you ask! I have enjoyed the discussion and learning new things about different dogs. When I originally bought Rio, he didn’t come with his papers, and his “breeder” didn’t even bother to buy the dams pedigree so I didn’t know anything about her when I asked. Since I was the only one that kept in contact and updated her on him, she decided to send me his full registration application because “a dog as handsome as him deserves to be able to have puppies.” I was just happy that now I could research his lineage on my own, and participate in dog sports without neutering him. I just love this dog so much, I swear he knows what’s going on just by looking in my eyes. He KNOWS when I’m about to go somewhere and take him just by looking at me, before I even get dressed let alone make a move for his collar. He is a one person dog. He will allow pettings and be fairly friendly to others but he’s mostly aloof and good luck getting him to do any commands. But he just adores me, he is always by my side and melts me every chance he gets. He even helps me herd my ducks into their pen every night!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

He is a handsome. I can see the different lines in him and they all made him who he is. It is a gift to have a special bond with an animal.


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