# the world according to berno



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

A thread which will live in infamy! If the mods don't delete it. And if they don't censor me. Because if we can't really talk here, I mean_ really talk_, I ain't got time. That said, before I say another word I'll issue 2 apologies to EVERYONE who reads right up front: firstly _no offense meant_, secondly_ in my opinion_. I'm not here to teach. I'm hoping to lean something new. And away we go!








Many may assume that dog is protecting the handler. I assert the handler is ultimately protecting the dog. In other words, any bad guy who resists that dog won't live long enough to testify about it in a court of law. When push comes to shove, a dog only buys you 30 to 120 seconds time. And that, in a nutshell, is the whole of my protection theory

To those who disagree, fair warning. 99% of criminals will pass just about any dog by in search of easier prey. The one out of 100, truly violent criminals who engage a lunging snapping dog are in most cases at least "temporarily insane." In other words, "psycho."








And much as I hate to say it, a psycho with a boxcutter may take a dog out mighty quick.









This dog, that dog, my dog, your dog, probably _ANY_ dog.

Is everybody with me so far? do they teach that in protection sports?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

familiarize yourself with the forum rules, follow them, encourage others to do the same and you shouldn’t have to worry about censorship or having your thread deleted. simple.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Fodder said:


> Fodder
> Super Moderator
> Joined Oct 21, 2007
> *6,666 Posts*


 did ya see that? was that perhaps a bit "ominous?" 
I'll do my best. Thanks.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I can feel them watching...LOL!

But my question is, can we still talk about pedigrees here? It easily ties in to Personal Protection, so it IS related!

Anyway you asked before, is the dog acting in prey or...

The be exact:



berno von der seeweise said:


> My question to the forum:
> what drive do you see expressed here, prey or civil? why?


Is that question no longer a concern? 

Looks like prey to me. And I base that entirely on the dog's posture. Tail's up, ears forward, he's having fun!

What do you say is the drive the dog is utilizing in that photo, and why? 

Inquiring minds want to know LOL!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

/attachments/*prey*-jpg.558364/


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

IMO protection sports are just that, sports. The original breed test that was designed to test a dogs trainability, willingness and courage is not what happens at a trial. Yes it does speak to some aspects but courage? No, The dogs are aware it's a game. It does not speak to discernment, again it's a game. My mess that I have currently will willingly engage and bite a yelling, threatening human. And she is afraid of plastic bags. She KNOWS it's a game!
A protection dog is different. 
They need to be willing to fight a real threat, they need to discern a real threat. The photo shows a dog going after a person running away/past. That has NOTHING to do with protection. That is a dog chasing prey. My protection dog was never more then 6 feet from me and could not be enticed or coerced to move further. IF she bit you and you moved back she let go, because she cannot protect if she is hallway down a field.

Way back when I got handed my first partner I was told that the dogs PRIMARY purpose was my safety. The dog was a tool to buy me time, and you're right it isn't even a ton of time. Because someone who will take on a snarling dog isn't going to blink at an unarmed woman. However! My primary goal was to get us BOTH out of there, because note I said partner.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

berno von der seeweise said:


> /attachments/*prey*-jpg.558364/



Learn how to post COULD YA? It really isn't rocket science LOL!

Didn't work for me...or likely, any one else!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> What do you say is the drive the dog is utilizing in that photo, and why?





berno von der seeweise said:


> /attachments/*prey*-jpg.558364/





tim_s_adams said:


> Learn how to post COULD YA? It really isn't rocket science LOL!
> 
> Didn't work for me...or likely, any one else!


He’s not attempting to post a photo, this is his clever way of answering your question.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Learn how to post COULD YA?


 Sorry, TS Adams. I'm still trying to get the hang of this social media thing.









I'm not a big art guy. I don't diminish art. I don't dismiss art. It just doesn't move me. I don't get it? But when I see a well honed ipo team, handler and dog working together in tandem, maybe I do? _That _looks like a Fine Art to me. So I certainly don't mean to diminish or dismiss any team working protection sport venues. 









Apparently we all agree this dog is playing a game? I think discernment may be illustrated here also, at least as far as the handlers commands. It looks to me like several objectives are well within reach, yet the dog is not engaging.

Earlier I made the mistake of assuming this dog was wgwl, and someone pointed out it may just as easily be wgsl. I don't disagree. In fact I'll see your wgsl and raise you an akcsl, because why not? I see no reason why it couldn't be?

Dog gone it all, I used to have a link to lackland's statement of work pdf, but for the life of me I can't find it now. I'll have to look around... unless somebody here has it handy?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Sorry, TS Adams. I'm still trying to get the hang of this social media thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Starry Night is not my favorite, although I do have it on a coffee cup. I prefer Irises in the Garden, or Mulberry Tree.
I am not as picky as you. I enjoy watching any good dog doing the job it was bred to do. And there is nothing prettier then a well trained horse working as one with its rider. 
As far as the dog in question, I have no care for it's breeding but will give it points for enthusiasm and doing what it's been taught to do.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

maybe ot, maybe not? certainly not ot to me. I haven't trained a gsd in over 20 yrs and my new pup is near 3 months old. He certainly has the ped of a big bad ddr dog so I hope to "raise the training bar" here for his sake. My intention w/ this post is to compile a list of resources. I'll come back and edit/add as I find. If anybody has any to share, it'll be most appreciated.
2005: https://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm3-19-17.pdf
1997: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a332189.pdf
1960: https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM20-20(60).pdf
1956: https://vspa.com/k9/downloads/sentry-dog-manual.pdf


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I been away for a long time. Never even seen this thing before. What the heck is with that muzzle/stop/forehead? That don't wrap around a bitearm right_ at all_... not even a puppy sleeve...
that head belongs on an akita...









This is what you want on a bite arm. Long muzzle, short stop, flat head.









Like this.


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Any dog needs the correct prey drive, temprament and correct training. Some dont have these and can not be trained like it.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

These are not "miracles." Typical prey drives, proper rearing/conditioning, and good training.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm not just blowin' smoke here, folks. A real breeder weans early and begins building prey, technique, physique, etc. What are we looking at here? 35? 40 days old? At this age you have to be sensitive. It's all about gentle challenges.









Take them up as high as you can, and gently talk them back down to earth. It's all about building confidence. Rock solid dogs are not born, they are built. The earlier, the better. If you're serious about work, find a litter whose breeder is actively conditioning for work. At 6 months old, that dog would have dived headlong into a volcano at my behest without any hesitation whatsoever. Absolutely fearless. Bulletproof.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

what does anybody think of the name "el karma" for my new pup?


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

I thought prey drive was through selective breeding? 

Karma is a nice name.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Prey is inherent, to some degree, in all canidae, but speaking of selective breeding, I am still amazed at the lack of prey exhibited by my bad little ddr. Not sure but it seems as if I've only managed to tap into his prey via his own competitiveness vs my 49 week old female "perimeter dog." Were it just he and I alone here, I fear I'd still be fetching my own balls 

Now lemme demonstrate to everyone here just how much I don't know, in hope somebody will illuminate me






Could this be behavior be prey driven? I mean they_ are _chasing and _mouthing. _My best guess: maybe? They sure look good together to me. So much so in fact that it tempts me to do a little doodling here... someday...



hirakawa199006 said:


> Karma is a nice name.


Thanks. What do you think about "el karma?"


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## hirakawa199006 (Feb 9, 2020)

Thanks for the reply, 

Hmm maybe too long for a gsd to respond?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

nah, 3 syllables "L-car-ma." Quick whisper. Rolls right off the tongue _en ingles. _He'd pick it right up, no problem. "Cease and desist immediately, or I shall have no choice but to summon _el karma..._"


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Prey is inherent, to some degree, in all canidae, but speaking of selective breeding, I am still amazed at the lack of prey exhibited by my bad little ddr. Not sure but it seems as if I've only managed to tap into his prey via his own competitiveness vs my 49 week old female "perimeter dog." Were it just he and I alone here, I fear I'd still be fetching my own balls
> 
> Now lemme demonstrate to everyone here just how much I don't know, in hope somebody will illuminate me
> 
> ...


I like it...has ironic undertones that may on occasion be humorously applicable!

But dude, if that video shows prey drive in any way shape or form, we're all doomed!

That being said, my previous dog of 12 yrs, had no ball drive at all. She was an unwanted dog that I got for free at 1.5 years of age. Seemed fear aggressive to me, barking and showing her teeth if/when approached.

By 3.5 yrs, with a little work (though I never considered it work really, more calm attention to detail), she became ROCK SOLID! And she was just an awesome partner in crime crime then until the day she died!

I'm thinking El Karma will also come into his own...in a few years. 

He won't be like the dogs you're used to perhaps, but I'm guessing, without any basis in fact, of course, that he WILL be something special!

Keep em climbin!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

the more I think about it, the more sp and gsd looks like prey play to me? play chasing, tooth and neck... play prey posturing maybe? I think I see some overlapping going on, but in my mind it all quickly devolves from subjective to relativism... 
pup is "special" to me because he's not related to my other dogs. His -BIG- test is coming on fast. I'll post a pic when it happens.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

gelmo vom hoopbrennen is passing his big test with flying colors. Ideal response. A++.









good boy, gelmo! yeehaw!!








any body language experts out there? how does anybody read the posturing?








he's going to have to share his trampoline from now on.

I am SO relieved. I thought for sure he'd be a chicken killer. Couple more weeks and he might have been? 91 days old today. I suppose I should be thankful for the low prey and late maturity. Looks like I got a good one. DDR is good stuff.










Man imprints on the newborn stock, and the newborn stock imprints on the dog. It's a spring ritual as old as time. I've been preoccupied with this pretty well every waking moment since the first time I laid eyes on little gelmo, because_ the very last thing _I need around here right now is a chicken killer on a chain, no matter how good it ever looks on a sleeve.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

and then the little so and so broke his 5 foot bamboo reizangel...










I'll make 3 new tomorrow. One with leather, one with jute, and one with coyote fur


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeah, look at those paws. And that black ring on his tail. That puppy is seriously flawed!

PM me your address and I'll make arrangements to come and relieve you of that burden!

I'd even be willing to give him a name and stick with it...I'm thinking, Dog!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Not only that, but there's another member on this forum who said all dogs descending from Utz have aggression issues. Of course he thinks Utz was Line IV, but either way, why take the chance? Think about the chickens you might be saving...


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## RealThreats (Feb 23, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> Not only that, but there's another member on this forum* who said all dogs descending from Utz have aggression issues.* Of course* he thinks Utz was Line IV*, but either way, why take the chance? Think about the chickens you might be saving...


Hi Tim, I am interested if you can provide the quote where this particular member said, "*all* dogs descending from Utz have aggression issues." ?

I'm also curious what line do you think Utz is ?

And I'm aware DDR has different line system (utz XII)


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

"_Research __shows that social bonding between dogs and small ruminants depends on imprinting the puppies when they are roughly* four to sixteen weeks old*. This developmental stage will “set” the dog’s adult behavior. In other words, imprinting changes the dog forever._"

He took right to the "herding" part of the job here, but he had a lot of direction and supervision (both human and k9). However when the babies start hitting the ground, between the placentas and the squawking and all the wobbly toddling, if anything's going to trigger a dog's natural "predator response" instincts, that'll do it. Had I intended to add a new pup here I would have adjusted my kidding schedule accordingly and introduced a 7 or 8 week old pup. 13 weeks old is late for "orthodox" livestock protection breeds, let alone modern gsd genetics.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

So getting back to pp now, I love the Theory of “a defense driven dog that doesn’t need bite training” but I don’t trust it in practice. My theory is, *the untrained dog is unpredictable, whereas the trained dog MAY be predictable.* So around here the drill is as follows: you bite what I say, when I say, and that’s it, or else. I’ve found this simple policy leaves the least amount of wiggle room for “interpretation.”
I honestly don’t expect to ever deploy little gelmo's bite, but I absolutely do expect him to live his entire life “in harm’s way” on behalf of what’s mine 24/7/365. Therefore I feel I owe it to him to build and train his bite to the FULL potential, so I do intend to get way crazy with that here 
At the risk of being controversial, ultimately I reckon the german breeds were genetically engineered to target the arm. Nothing against bitesuits or legs, it’s just that in order to properly evaluate a gsd bite, you need to put it on a full size trial arm. Correct gsd bite is fully committed, calm, and quiet. As far as agitation, we don’t go beyond a regular GI padded stick here.
* So it’s really only a fun game for the dog.* I’ll convince him he’s bulletproof, and he’ll believe it wholeheartedly. Anyone who ever tries to tell him different will answer to me.









That said, since he's obviously such "a special little guy" I think I’ll hold off on the yote fur in this case until he’s big enough to handle himself. They're all around, and I wouldn’t want him trying to play "hero" in that role just yet. He tears around pretty good and I'm afraid he might wind that scent a little too soon and chase off after it. When we do break out the fur, I expect he'll be drooling for it. He's got the makings, I think.

So, what about the ears? The milk is flowing pretty good here now so his diet is improving. The whey byproduct from cheesemaking is pure liquid protein and if anything he got too much calcium today. I assume I should give the ears another month? What say you?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I say give him to me! Chickens, the tail, and the ears are all deeply concerning.

Dude he's flawed beyond redemption, just hand him over now! PM me your address I'll be there in the morning.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

He certainly doesn't remind me of the usa gsd I remember from my youth at all. This may as well be a different breed altogether? For lack of a better term, he seems awful "wolfy" to me. I don't expect he'll ever conform to the standard...










But speaking of wolves I just had an interesting exchange here between myself, an old time hardcore hunter, and a wildlife biologist. This dog was on my desktop and they wondered if I was in the market for another gsd. So we got to talking and I was explaining long muzzle/low stop/flat forehead wraps best around the bitearm. 
The wildlife biologist remarked the above looks like a chihuahua head. "Like nothing you'll ever find in nature." The hunter remarked that head would have a hard time moving through heavy cover, and the jaw looked weak. Granted neither knows or cares anything about gsd, so take it with a grain of salt. 
Still, I can't help wondering if the SV hasn't lost sight of the breed's intended purpose, somewhere along the way?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

up ‘till now for the most part he’s been livin’ on ‘ol roy gourmet feathers and rice hulls blend 3x daily here (_just a little at a time so he absorbs whatever nutrition it has to offer_). I add a tablespoon of armour beef lard (yuk!) at night to keep him warm. Few oz milk everyday (_strip cups_), the occasional eggshell, and a fresh rabbit liver lightly poached in butter every monday morning. Never feed a dog raw rabbit (_parasites_). I do not recommend this diet for anyone else’s dog. I scrutinize this individual’s growth and progress on a meal by meal basis for optimal performance, right down to the very last nugget of kibble.








The result is a vigorous 13 week old pup. So much so in fact that he graduated to a new leash collar today (yay!). Never use this type of collar to correct a dog. Just allow the dog to correct itself. Walks on leash should be fun, no matter how much drive a dog has. If it isn’t fun, you’re doing it wrong. Primary focus for the next 3 weeks here is bonding w/ newborn stock. Easy work for me. All I have to do is watch.








I have to admit bites are improving somewhat. I like the little trampoline because it’s low impact on his hips and elbows. If he grabs a little bite I make him work harder/longer for the win. If he grabs a great big bite I still make him work hard, but I let him win a little sooner. He seems to be catching on.








He’s finally reached the point where he mostly grabs a great big bite and gives me “the evil eye” so I believe there is hope for him yet. I can only imagine where this pup might be right now had he been reared and conditioned for a proper day 51 vpat. Coat seems to be darkening somewhat. Dark seems to be spreading. I still wish he was black and tan like utz, but I’ll settle for whatever shade...








OK, if I'm being completely honest, I keep hoping he's somehow going to like miraculously "morph" into a pattern sable that resembles black and tan a little bit... but probably just not in the cards I've been dealt here...


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Not sure what the purpose of this last photo is.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

@dogfaeries we can surmise that he's showing us a picture of what he hope's his dog would become...though we both that's horse hockey!

But honestly, and no offense intended, if anyone doesn't like the focus of a thread...don't view it! It's not that anyone's forced to come here to this particular thread, so that you can be offended. I get "why" you might be. Just avoid his threads! 

His and your views differ. That "should" be okay right? It is a public forum, where, within reason, and with appropriate digression, everyone who isn't outrightly offensive "should" be able to have a good discussion.

This guy is abrasive enough to everyone LOL, let alone showline people. But he's interesting, articulate, and clearly has some knowledge (probably way more than me, we'll see LOL!).

At any rate Berno, what say you?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, Tim, I’d say it’s probably not a good idea to take a photo from someone’s photography business website, and post it on a forum.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I had no idea...but yeah, that's not okay!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> As for "copyright infringement" my photos of little gelmo are public domain. Please feel free to use them however anybody likes.


The photo of the ASL male you posted is not in the public domain. It belongs to a show dog photographer. I’m sure if you’d like to use it, you can buy a digital copy from them.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I think I'll take a pass on that  but while we're on the subject of "public vs private"










The breed itself functions like a publicly held corporation and I own one share of common stock. I’m not a promoter. I’m not an investor. I am only a shareholder. One share = one vote, and that’s all there is to it for me.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 558555
> 
> 
> OK, if I'm being completely honest, I keep hoping he's somehow going to like miraculously "morph" into a pattern sable that resembles black and tan a little bit... but probably just not in the cards I've been dealt here...


I'd have guessed you'd be hoping for an all white GSD........


SuperG


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Here is your post minus the picture.
I have nothing against conformation. In fact I think it's probably a safe bet most "showline" individuals have more correct prey drives than what I'm working with here. A sable coat does not a working dog make. I take issue issue with the judges in the breed's parent country, but who doesn't? and who cares? certainly not them.

As for "copyright infringement" my photos of little gelmo are public domain. Please feel free to use them however anybody likes. It may take all summer, it may even take all next winter, but I intend to illustrate an EPIC textbook example of what the proper gsd bite should look like.

I wish he was already backtied because in my experience it's best to "imprint" good lunge as early as possible. But as I keep saying, so far his only real motivation appears to be competition vs other dogs. I keep trying to think of ways to backtie, but in my mind it ends up in a tangled mess every which way. An experiment gone wrong at this stage may easily do more harm than good, so for now I wait and see. Any ideas?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

SuperG said:


> I'd have guessed you'd be hoping for an all white GSD........
> 
> 
> SuperG


 I'd be lying if I said I couldn't remember some mighty fine whites, off whites, and saddled whites. Haven't been around any whites at all since the 1970's, but I bet there's still some good ones out there?










Come to think of it I just remembered a couple in particular, mixes probably, most likely from the same litter? HUGE! And in just the right light, their coats almost "glowed" against the snow. Dogs were better back then, I think?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Breeding for all whites or blacks will only lead to decline. No different than breeding for frog walking black and red dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

True enough. Once upon a time usa wgsd used to x black and tan every few generations. Non white individuals and offspring were recorded as "stock dogs." Quite a few white and whiteish dogs served us mil overseas circa 60's-70's, so they couldn't have been all bad? right?































































any thoughts on back tie for reizangel @ 13wks old? seems "logical" in my mind, but I don't want to mess this up.

edit: Dr. Blasiole gives clear and concise backtie instructions on page 4.
* DO NOT JUMP THE GUN*


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm still wondering why, at 13 wks, you're already turning to compulsion with the prong collar? Is it habit, laziness, or do you honestly see an upside?

For me, it's just never ever been needed. So why?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A back tie for a 13 week old pup is not a good idea. It is so limiting and prevents you from imprinting forward aggression. I assume you don't have anyone with skills to teach your pup the fundamentals of bite work. I would not use a rag either. A small bite pillow is best, preferably covered in leather. Unless you are going to do IGP with your dog, IMO, you want to teach a pushing bite, which is not natural for most dogs, but teaches them forward aggression and how to fight including the use of their feet if they have good desire to possess.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

berno von der seeweise said:


> True enough. Once upon a time usa wgsd used to x black and tan every few generations. Non white individuals and offspring were recorded as "stock dogs." Quite a few white and whiteish dogs served us mil overseas circa 60's-70's, so they couldn't have been all bad? right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These aren't white dogs...these are black and tans with lighter tan.

That one at the top has a name too, but I forget...if it is a purebred shepherd. There are whites with "biscuiting"-- I think that's spelled wrong and I need to look it up. My white has a very faint saddle of cream. Which the white breeders don't care for. But that top dog I think is just a light black and tan without the black saddle


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*" Von Stephanitz*, in his well-known book on German Shepherds, decisively concluded, _“The coloring of the dog has no significance whatsoever for service.” "_








Berno v.d.Seeweise

"With Hector as the foundation dog, other dogs were bred in for various reasons. One factor that was enhanced was the white coat.

Many of the early herdsmen preferred the white coat, as it was easier to distinguish the dogs from darker European wolves."


SuperG


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm still wondering why, at 13 wks, you're already turning to compulsion with the prong collar? Is it habit, laziness, or do you honestly see an upside?
> 
> For me, it's just never ever been needed. So why?


Little nylon puppy collar is fine for active training, but when the kids take him lollygagging, he starts pulling. It's not him. It's them. He's already sliced clean through 2 leashes (1 brand new yesterday), so I fear _that's_ a learned behavior now. They were doing a little archaeological excavation yesterday and apparently pup got bored and decided to release himself on his own recognizance... again... sharp molars though... and at this point any sign of drive is a glimmer of hope...



Chip Blasiole said:


> A back tie for a 13 week old pup is not a good idea. It is so limiting and prevents you from imprinting forward aggression. [ ] you want to teach a pushing bite, which is not natural for most dogs, but teaches them forward aggression and how to fight including the use of their feet


I mean a bungee type backtie, so he has to pull/lunge forward in order to get the rag.



Chip Blasiole said:


> A small bite pillow is best, preferably covered in leather.


any thoughts about a bite pillow on a springpole inside his kennel?



Chip Blasiole said:


> I assume you don't have anyone with skills to teach your pup the fundamentals of bite work.


he's not ready and no, I don't have anybody I trust with him until he's much more mature. We're still working on the tug stage here. Like I keep saying, pup is way behind in the prey & bite departments. At least compared to what I'm used to here.
It's easy enough for me to dismiss it as "improper rearing and lack of pre-vpat conditioning" but now you've got me wondering about the AI? With livestock it does make a few differences, but this is the only AI dog I've ever seen. Has anyone heard of any correlations between AI and temperament?



SuperG said:


> *" Von Stephanitz*, in his well-known book on German Shepherds, decisively concluded, _“The coloring of the dog has no significance whatsoever for service.” "_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


see there? don't nobody make the mistake of taking me too seriously. I can't even spell my own name right My ped has utz all over it so it would be cool if he looked like utz, but I have no preference beyond that. I am neither pro nor anti wgsd. I am however an outspoken critic of narrow genepools. I see a lot of ddr/zps reg. ukc now, and ukc does reg wgsd as such. So I'll take the opportunity to preach a little outcross/backcross/linebreeding here, on behalf of the breed at large.







even at that age, even from just an old foto, that pup's work ethic was self evident I coaxed that individual from countless generations pure conformation lines via proper rearing, conditioning, and linebreeding on day 51 vpat selections. My point being, there's a great BIG world beyond bsd/dsd/gsd. WL gsd breeders in it for the long haul would do well to at least _take a look_ outside the box once in awhile.
There are lots of reasons why I'll never get in the bsd/dsd/gsd game. I didn't ask for a gsd. Fate dealt me a ZL:XII "y chromosome" so I'll try to run with it here. If it all works out, I may invest in an SPX someday? SP could use some some ZL:XII "nuclear dna" and ZL:XII could use some SP prey. No doubt my saying so constitutes heresy and high treason here, but again, it's a great big world.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

No training is better than poor training. A bite pillow on a spring pole is going to teach your pup all kinds of poor technique. A rag is a poor choice because cloth has small holes in it that allow a pup with small teeth to easily get an "accidental" grip. The pup needs to learn to bite hard and hold on. A bungee will limit the dog in pushing into the bite. That is why even with great genetics, lack of great training is a major problem. If your pup is not showing much prey drive, don't "beg" him to bite by making faster movements with the prey object. There is a major lack of truly knowledgeable and skilled people who can do correct foundation bite work on a pup/young dog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I appreciate the advice, thank you

My reizangel rag is leather so it doesn't hurt his teeth. I have a near adult female prey monster he competes against for it and the ball. Luckily she's intelligent enough to let him have his turn. Grips/holds are improving. Trampoline doesn't afford much traction but once on the ground he digs in and pulls pretty good.

Chip I've been meaning to ask, did you work any DDR giant schnauzers when they came across the pond? If so, were their prey/defense similar to DDR GSD?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is not about hurting his teeth, it is about him getting a cheap bite without have to strike and grip because the teeth get stuck in materials like cloth/jute. I used to train with someone who had a Riesenschnauzer that went back to Dutch and a DDR schnauzer from the DDR kennel von haus Roberto. That dog was trained in a way that he appeared to have good prey drive for the toy in obedience but really didn't have much prey drive, but in bite work he was all about very serious aggression. Helpers would sometimes wear a fencing mask when the dog was guarding so they wouldn't get bit in the face.I don't think he was much of a producer though. I would say that dog was similar to the old DDR dogs in aggression having strong, confident defensive aggression, social aggression, and dominance.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> It is not about hurting his teeth, it is about him getting a cheap bite without have to strike and grip because the teeth get stuck in materials like cloth/jute.


if he grabs a little bite I make him work longer and harder for the win. If he grabs a big bite I still make him work for it, but I let him win a little sooner. He seems to be catching on.











Chip Blasiole said:


> Helpers would sometimes wear a fencing mask when the dog was guarding so they wouldn't get bit in the face.











*STOP IT CHIP YOU'RE SCARING ME!!!*

I don't demand that "_everybody everywhere has to agree or else they're wrong."_ I'm only saying that here on my place the bitearm is the standard of excellence, and any dog that decides to deviate is dismissed as unsuitable for the work. In my mind a dog is supposed to be strictly "non-lethal force" or perhaps more accurately in the case of gsd "less lethal force."


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't know about anybody else around here, but I am having a ball









if he grabs a cheap bite I make him work harder for the win













































and then the little so and so tore a hole in my leather lure









95 days old today. I was hoping that leather would last until he broke the new stick...

I suppose it really is bite pillow time now, as per Dr. Blasiole's orders...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Looks like he's coming along nicely! Sure has grown!

Remember though, if you ever get tired of that ring-tailed, floppy-eared, oddball just say the word and I'll be happy to relieve you of that burden!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I _SO DESPERATELY_ want to back tie him with a big rubber band, but he's quite unlike anything I've ever trained before. My in-house prey monster genetics withstand quite a bit of pressure, but I'm not entirely sure I even know what "defensive aggression" is? Naturally I assumed I did, but little gelmo is so different from everything I'm used to, now I'm not so sure? I've fooled around with other breeds that had_ some _ddr in their peds, but this pup is 7/8 ddr, so it's all new to me? and he does seem to be coming along now, so I really don't want to mess this up...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There is another advantage to a bite pillow. Notice in your one photo, the string is pulling the rag from the right side of your pup's mouth. Too much foundation of the prey being pulled from one side or the other instead of from the center or with even pressure on both sides can lead to grip issues. What are you saying about this pup being different and defensive aggression? Do you mean he is growling a lot or sounds angry or stressed when biting?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is another advantage to a bite pillow. Notice in your one photo, the string is pulling the rag from the right side of your pup's mouth. Too much foundation of the prey being pulled from one side or the other instead of from the center or with even pressure on both sides can lead to grip issues.


Yes I do see exactly what you mean in several above photos when I look closely.


Chip Blasiole said:


> What are you saying about this pup being different and defensive aggression? Do you mean he is growling a lot or sounds angry or stressed when biting?


He gets a little grumbly when he really digs in but I see no reason to interpret that as “defensive.” There’s no “pressure” involved. It’s all positive. He’s a happy puppy. In terms of bite training I assume I’ve only tapped into prey so far?
I have observed what I interpret as some social aggression and dominance between he and my adult female dogs but I’m not even worried about that. He’s outnumbered and they are well versed in neutralizing big unruly males. For now they mostly indulge him, but when the time comes they’ll give him his comeuppance.









I finally did manage to dig up my old puppy sleeve tonight and found an old homemade hidden sleeve. 2 layers of 5gal pvc bucket sewn together with bailing twine. Unfortunately my old jute tug seems to have disappeared. The last time I remember seeing it I stuffed it into the puppy sleeve a few years ago, so I fear it may have been eaten at some point in the distant past… Naturally I just couldn’t resist the temptation to give little gelmo his first taste of jute, and I have to say doing so seemed to flip a good little switch on him. I don’t know if it was the smell of old bites or ddr is just genetically programmed for jute or what, but he went absolutely psycho for it.







He liked his new puppy sleeve even better than his ‘ol roy tonight!! So now we need to teach him to open his mouth like a crocodile. This is where a bite pillow comes in. I’ll cobble together some sort of leather contraption here and report back. Thanks again for your input Dr. Blasiole!!









The bonding is coming along FABULOUSLY here!! Couple more new friends born today.









Over the years I’ve supervised the bonding between pups and newborn stock numerous times. Numerous breeds. Numerous mixes. In terms of temperament this individual is in my experience completely unsurpassed. With most male pups “bonding” is simply correcting a pup when he attempts to treat newborn stock like a toy. Once they get that down, they pretty well loose interest in the babies and begin exploring territory.









Little gelmo on the other hand seems to be forming observable emotional attachments here.
He absolutely loves these things.

















I wish I could have caught a better foto of that. ****** is overjoyed to finally have some playmates of his own kind to bonk heads with. All 3 are males and I'll hang onto the most vigorous one for breedingstock.

In case any hobbyfarm folk should ever happen along this post I want to reiterate, this is *CRITICALLY IMPORTANT*


berno von der seeweise said:


> "_Research __shows that social bonding between dogs and small ruminants depends on imprinting the puppies when they are roughly* four to sixteen weeks old*. This developmental stage will “set” the dog’s adult behavior. In other words, imprinting changes the dog forever._"


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t know what your goals are with your pup, but if it is not IGP, even though you prefer a forearm bite, I would still recommend teaching a pushing bite which can done to a large extent with the correct bite pillow. It becomes a matter of skill and technique and not waiting too long to get your dog biting someone other than you who is skilled. I am convinced and have seen firsthand how the lack of a decoy can ruin good genetics and, IMO, is a major problem everywhere, I see many dogs with good genetics and poor training that are turned around with good training but still tend to default to their faulty foundation especially when control and stress are increased. Considering the research you have appeared to have put into choosing your pup, I would focus on finding on good training. The problem is that it is rare and you might not know what to look for. My dog had good genetics, but without the training I have been fortunate to expose him to, he would likely have become a very different dog not to my liking.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Beyond my own place I “monitor” neighboring acreages which border fed/state lands. It’s a nice “training maze” of forest, fences, cabins, outbuildings, decrepit structures, natural structures, etc, and for the most part it’s all deserted like 325 days per year. I’d like to get some tracking on him as well(8-17) but he’s not too interested yet. He’s always sniffing around independently, but his scent aptitude seems marginal so far.








Fish and game had a shootout vs supposed “cartel” on public lands not far from here some years back and they were outgunned, so that part* isn’t *a game to me. I’d like to train up something of a poor man’s back yard “scout dog” in that regard. Hopefully he won’t be too barky for the job. So far he isn’t, but he’s only 97 days old. My goal with that is only not to get myself ambushed on private lands.








Grips were somewhat improved tonight.








My training ability is pretty basic and I suspect this individual’s potential is as well, so hopefully we’ll make a good match. Its easy enough to scare up some yocal help but by the time a “decoy” finds his way around the game, he and the dog are acquainted. In my case it’s better to just build bite and train obedience for now. When little gelmo meets our “decoys” it will really only “prüf” his obedience. My hidden sleeve requires a heavy coat or the grips just slip and tear clothing. Hopefully we’ll “decoy” that before spring comes again.








On this last bite I kept gently pulling and he flopped down on his side, so I carefully dragged him 6 or 8 feet. Luckily I saw his grip beginning to slip so I let him have the win just in time.








As my old sleeve illustrates I've trained a few pups, and this one* definitely *likes the game. Obviously his teeth still need to do some growing yet. At roughly what age should this type of gsd have teeth enough for the jute? I’d like to set an approximate goal for that here. Seems like he’s way behind, but maybe I’m just used to faster maturation rates?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> I’d like to train up something of a poor man’s back yard “scout dog” in that regard.


I'm curious, what WOULD you want your dog to do if someone was out there?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm curious, what WOULD you want your dog to do if someone was out there?


In a perfect world wonder dog would just recon on behalf of my absentee neighbors and file a report when he gets back. Or better yet a psychic k9 with his own cellphone, so he'd know when to call the sheriff without even disturbing me
My honest answer is complicated. Here on my place I expect him to bark his head off, but at the same time it would be great if he’d silently or at least quietly alert on “trespassers ahead” when we make our rounds. I don’t mean to exaggerate now. We are in a sparsely populated very low crime rural area, but you just never know what you’re going to stumble into out here anymore?








But given the fact that he is after all a freebie, and considering the promise he seems to be showing as a future livestock protection dog, and now that his prey drives are finally beginning to look serviceable, I’ll happily settle for a mediocre patrol gsd. I’ll glean whatever I can from the ‘73 scoutdog manual, but if I was any sort of scoutdog trainer, I wouldn’t be here. Right?









but speaking of prey drives, little gelmo vom ziegenstall got a new toy in his easter basket today!








Bigger than his old leather rag but smaller than the puppy sleeve. I know there was a jute tug around here somewhere, but I’m running out of places to look for it.








this is not the jute bitepillow Dr. Blasiole prescribed yet, but it did teach him to a grab a little bit bigger bite tonight








I wish they made an ‘ol roy flavored puppy sleeve. He’d really go crazy for that.








By now he knows supper comes after we train, especially in the rain or snow. Some say they “_wouldn’t send a dog out on a night like this_” but I deliberately try to imprint/create an association between inclement weather and performance in a pup’s mind. Because sure as shootin’ that’s precisely when you may _really_ need the dog to perform in the future.








I keep the ball by the feed can because retrieving isn't always his favorite thing to do. So, right after some good bites every night he’s happy to do a few retrieves before supper. Even in the rain, because he knows that’s the finish line.








good boy little gelmo! 98 days old today.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

You understand the subtleties that most miss. I think you'll do fine!

My question though, was a serious one, in that my current dog does those type of alert behaviors naturally. No training required! 

The bite work though, seems very important to you...why? Habit, or something else? Do you really want your dog engaging a cartel person?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

In your case I would not do bite work with especially because you’re doing it yourself. I would think of what obedience is important such as a recall. I would take him to s
as many different place and do agility obstacles to build his confidence. When you take him to new places try to read his nerves and defensive aggression. Don’t let strangers pet your dog. When he is about since months, find someone who can do some suspicion work. If he genetically aggressive you don’t have to work on bite mechanics for what you want. You want to develop mistrust if he has it genetically. You don’t was a social dog. Having mainly DDR genetics, the odds are you will have a dog whose primary drive is defensive aggression,


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I have no choice but to socialize my dogs. Deliveries come right up to my main gate, and pretty soon Saturdays will be “overrun” by neighbors. So once again, luckily, the age and timing on that works out just right. Summer Saturdays are socialization “workshops” here.
A couple neighbors in particular have pretty good dog sense so “do me a favor, here’s his leash, walk him back to your place, I’ll come get him at noon.” Everybody already knows I have a new “border patrol” pup and they’re all happy to have him “on duty” ASAP. He’s already barked at suspicious behavior. That just came natural.



tim_s_adams said:


> The bite work though, seems very important to you...why? Habit, or something else?











In a word, obedience.



tim_s_adams said:


> Do you really want your dog engaging a cartel person?


It makes no difference to me what a man does for a living, but that business is a little dangerous To me it’s not at all a question of “who might I want my dog to engage?” Rather it’s entirely a matter of whom hopefully would chose _not to engage_ my dog. I train a dog to target the arm, thereby rendering him “less than lethal force.” What’s a grown gsd weigh? 60Lbs? 80Lbs? So best _AND_ worst case scenarios: bad guy has 60lbs clamped onto one arm for a few seconds.









In this reality the dog isn’t protecting the handler. In this reality _the handler is protecting the dog_.
So what are we _really_ looking at above? False paradigm? False dichotomy?









All Canidae are _born_ knowing how to bite. That’s how they’ve been forced to make their living all along, because they don’t have opposable thumbs








I’m just trying to train _this one_ how to bite extra good.

Bite training is a good outlet for aggression, and protection training eliminates the stress every dog naturally feels regarding any need to protect itself.









I’m “_brainwashing_” this dog to believe he “_never needs to fear anything_” because his handler is “_in total control of our environment at all times._” In the future, when he instinctively perceives a threat, he will obediently wag his tail. Because the idea that he might somehow someday ever even possibly “finish second” at the bite game will in his mind be an utter impossibility.








Protection training = solid obedience + maximum confidence. Not only confidence in himself, but even more importantly confidence in his handler. The goal here is to train/condition the dog to be as outgoing and confident as he is able. “As your handler I am in complete control of our environment at all times. You bite what I say, when I say, and that’s it, or else.” Obedience, obedience, obedience. I say again, obedience, obedience, obedience.









99 days old


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Have you started obedience training? If so, what is your approach and what behaviors are important for your dog to learn for your purposes besides the one you mentioned?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I’m all about positive reinforcement here and over the years I’ve trained everyone else on my place accordingly. Nobody on my place pets a dog without good reason. If you feel like petting a dog, at least make him sit first. Rather than constantly correcting a pup for doing all the things _we don’t want_, we instead give the pup a command and reward it for something _we do want_. Works pretty good. When the pup hears it’s name it is eager for positive reinforcement. If not, it’s compulsion time. *obedience command list*
I’ve never (_ever_) done any food reward method but I will eventually dabble with this pup because I’d like to enhance my own ability for his sake. In the meantime the whole team here, again rather than correcting, trains obedience all day long. The only time we aren’t training obedience is while he’s in his kennel. He may do as he pleases in his kennel and we take no notice. Took him a _LONG_ time to finally figure that out.









_appx 60 days old_

This thing was a real mess when he arrived. Absolutely crazy. The most manic pup I’ve ever seen. He nearly climbed to the top of his 6 foot chainlink kennel wall more than once at first. Wish I had a foto. Not the breed’s finest moments, I assure you. I nearly _rehomed_ him a few times in the beginning… I mean to tell you I made a couple _VERY_ close calls here… Had it not been for the AI and pedigree database, I almost certainly would have. Pedigrees don’t mean much, and I am by no means an AI advocate, but over the years I’ve heard so much tell about ddr genetics, I proceeded on faith…









_appx 60 days old_

If you’re the prayin’ kind, you might say a few words on behalf of his littermates… I’m sure the “breeder’s” plan was only paved with good intention$...









Anyway, it bears repeating, in this reality the dog isn’t protecting the handler. In this reality the handler is protecting the dog. So what am I really training here? A false paradigm? My answer is yes. I am deliberately training this dog in order that he may be deployed as a false paradigm, however I proceed with only the utmost hope that I’m never forced to deploy him as such.









_100 days old and finally learning to fly_

I’ve trained some considerable bites in my day even if I do say so myself, and mark my words I* fully intend *to “set a new record” on behalf of the breed at large here with little gelmo vom bärenfalle. No faith required. His aptitude is self evident.
So since I don't have a proper decoy to train the pushing bite, and since I have no intention whatsoever of training or building defensive aggression, and since his_ tug toy prey drive_ is finally beginning to emerge here, is there any reason not to backtie him on some bungee cord? I believe in the event, _heaven forbid_, of actual deployment, it would be in *this dog's best interest* to strike/lunge from_ typical bungee backtie_ distance. What say you, Dr. Blasiole? Thank you in advance for your time.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The question is, is your pup extreme in prey drive, hyperactive or both. They are different traits. For dogs with extreme drive or even hyperactivity, food is a great way to reinforce behavior without getting the pup too wound up so that he can focus and learn. The use of food can be simple or complex, such as using a place box,promoting self discover and correctly using marker training. Clicker training with a place box and self discovery can yield great results but it requires the handler to know how to use continuous reinforcement, correct timing, consistency, etc. It is not as simple as you might think.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> The question is, is your pup extreme in prey drive, hyperactive or both.


I think neither nor. I think "breeder" didn't wean, litter & dam ran completely wild & unsupervised all over that house, and the entire trainwreck was reinforced every step of the way. A respected associate wondered if perhaps said "breeder" had been correcting the dam _*in response*_ to the dam correcting _*her own*_ offspring.

Took a few weeks, but he's all calmed down now. If anything I'd say his prey is low. At least in terms of what I expected/imagined ddr gsd prey would be.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

You have to decide what it is you want from your dog! Guard or lookout. The training is totally different! Can't have both!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> You have to decide what it is you want from your dog! Guard or lookout. The training is totally different! Can't have both!


Question on why you can't have both? LGDs are a bit different but they watch for threats and will back up with guarding when necessary. Since GSDs came from protecting and herding the sheep wouldn't you expect some of the same functionality? 
I guess also what is supposed to be the difference between guard and lookout in your terms? Since dog people often use the same terms for different things. 😂


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You said you have no intention of building or training defensive aggression. Dogs rarely bite civilly/for real in prey only, especially if prey drive is not extreme and you say your pup's prey drive is low. Why did you expect his prey drive to be higher with his DDR genetics? In the old DDR dogs, prey drive was not valued and was even selected away from. I don't see much value in a bungee back tie and backtieing is limiting except in situations where you don't want the dog to have the option to go into flight or if the foundation was done wrong and the dog has become too hectic.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Kazel said:


> Question on why you can't have both?


 I assume TS Adams means something along the lines of, you can _own_ a dodge ram, and you can _own_ a dodge charger, but you can't _DRIVE_ both at the same time. And while over the years many "hybridization" attempts between the two have been made, none have stood the test of time. 

I can't argue with that.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I assume TS Adams means something along the lines of, you can _own_ a dodge ram, and you can _own_ a dodge charger, but you can't _DRIVE_ both at the same time. And while over the years many "hybridization" attempts between the two have been made, none have stood the test of time.
> 
> I can't argue with that.


That sadly doesn’t really answer my question since it depends on what you define on look out and guard dog on if you can have both at the same time. 

You can have the stereotypical junkyard dogs that’s supposed to go after any intruders. That’s what most people seem to picture.

So what would the look out do as compared to that? Just bark or have a trained command to come get you? What if you aren’t home?

For me when I’m thinking of a truly protective dog I want a confident dog that wouldn’t attack unless it believes there is a threat. Maybe barks when strangers enter the property but as an alert, doesn’t go insane barking which is what most people seem to want from guard dogs. Fearful dogs are getting highly prized by BYB types because they give a good bluff and if pushed hard enough may actually bite. And once a scared dog has learned to bite they can become dangerous dogs. Maybe they won’t kill somebody but they can sure wrack up a bite record. 

So can some protective dogs though if not handled appropriately and varying on other temperament traits.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Dogs rarely bite civilly/for real in prey only, especially if prey drive is not extreme and you say your pup's prey drive is low.


the only thing lower than this pup's prey are the odds of me ever deploying him for real I do finally seem to be having some success building prey with the tug toys now


Chip Blasiole said:


> Why did you expect his prey drive to be higher with his DDR genetics? In the old DDR dogs, prey drive was not valued and was even selected away from.


I didn't expect prey specifically from _ddr_ gsd per se, I just assumed prey was an inherent gsd trait? Other ddr breed genetics I've toyed with had far higher prey, but perhaps prey was valued in those other breeds? Or perhaps just less selection pressure on the other breeds in ddr?


Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't see much value in a bungee back tie


I've had success with other breeds prey x bungee = enhanced forward speed/strength, but I value your opinion so I'll trust your judgement and hold off. Thanks again for all the help. I feel like I'm finally starting to figure this dog out.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Kazel said:


> That sadly doesn’t really answer my question since it depends on what you define on look out and guard dog on if you can have both at the same time.


read the thread. TS Adams was citing major conflicts between training pp vs. scouting, and I think he's probably correct. There's 2 kinds of people in this world, beatles people and elvis people. Beatles people can like elvis, and elvis people can like the beatles, but nobody likes them both equally.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

With a bungee, you should really have the dog at the end of the bungee but with no tension and then stand next to the dog with a leash so he can go forward but not flying back if he misses a strike, which means you would still need another person to either work him or hold the leash. Plus, if you want to teach your dog to push, you don't want to be limited in how far you can walk backwards, which a tie out would do. But you also need to apply some back pressure at times and at other times give slack, so you really need two people. If that is absolutely not an option, I would start on a regular tie out and always make sure your pup/dog is at the end of the line so he doesn't charge forward and hit the end of the line and injure himself. Then you could go to a bungee and rig up something that limits how far back he well be pulled if he pulls hard and fast on the bungee and doesn't stick the strike and gets pulled back. You could simulate back pressure and slack on a tie out by pulling the dog toward you while he is gripping and walk into him when you want some slack, but that is less than ideal.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Your words are not wasted on me, Dr. Blasiole. Having read and re-read your reply, I realize this pup is _FAR_ too young for the bungee yet, just as you say. There are too many variables could go wrong, and at this age if I make even one little mistake he may easily loose his appetite for the bitearm.









I apologize for being so impatient and I thank you again for your time.
Little gelmo sends his thanks as well.









It's just... _the voices_... _endlessly chanting_ now... "bungee bungee bungee! jute jute jute!"
I can't make them stop...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

speakin’ of byb, little gelmo, hop up there and bring me that stick. brav, gelmo! bring boy! hoot knee!









gelmo, bring! you know, aport! gelmo fetch boy!









his byb son will bring that stick @ 102 days old









speaking of haus bärenfalle, _somebody’s new friend_ woke up from hibernation today…









I'm pretty sure I tapped into some civil right there...









everything after that was just a blur









bungee bungee bungee! jute jute jute!


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

See there, everybody? I made Chip laugh (_at least once_)
Let it never be said that Chip Blasiole doesn't have a sense of humor.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

does this look right? pretty cool how ddr just naturally targets the arm 









 106 days old and he finally seems to be_ getting the hang _of it now


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

like pushing a button now 









flirtpole stick is 7 feet long. When I brace the butt against the sole of my boot it creates a springpole effect. He's swinging near a foot off the ground now and holding fast. I am pleasantly surprised by his progress.









ouch! poor bear... I think we're just about ready for a longer pole and a bigger lure here...
I expect he'll be on the bitearm within a month or so.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm curious, genuinely. Not at all sarcastic.
I started out in life as a horsewoman. I love animals. I did obedience with the dogs when I was younger. I worked for 15 years or so as a patrol dog handler. I showed people how to teach their pet dogs basic obedience and helped with house and crate training for the rescues. Just to give you some idea where I am coming from with this question.
Why the push to train puppies? I understand the exposure and creating the invincible me confidence, it's how I raised the patrol prospects. But they never got certified before 18 months old, and usually not before two. I am genuinely, truly curious why I see this push, not just from you, to have these babies working so young.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

At this age especially, you can't push. Either the dog wants to, or he doesn't.

Wolf depredation is on the rise here, and they've killed dogs in broad daylight not 30 miles away. Last summer they killed 13 sheep in a pen. Little gelmo sleeps in a chain link kennel right outside my window, so he's safe at night. All I expect of him is to wake me in the event of trouble. But come fall, when mothers start teaching pups to hunt... You just never know... Coyote and wolf range overlaps here and occasional hybrid offspring are unnaturally aggressive.

Sooner or later he may choose to put his life on the line for what's mine, and I intend to do everything in my power to prepare him for that scenario. Failure to do so on my part would be no different than sending you on a tour of duty without ammo. For now he's just a happy puppy playing a fun game, but someday he may very well find himself backed into a corner.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Hmm. If encountering a wolf or coywolf is truly the concern, wouldn't he be better equipped by roughhousing with other dogs, of many different breeds?

Does he play and wrestle with your other dogs at all?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Constantly. When he bites too hard they correct him. My other dogs are _REALLY SCARY_! But I won't muddy up the board with any of that unless/until I have good reason. 
I should make clear, I have no intention of _EVER_ deliberately or intentionally risking little gelmo's life. I wouldn't go to all the time and trouble only to lay it all on the line, for what? I have very big plans for these genetics. "Big" relative to my humble lifestyle, that is.
I wasn't even seeking a gsd. I'd actually planned to pick up a working male herdxguard mix this spring when little gelmo happened along. Glad I had room for him when he showed up. 
Just a reminder, it's only a teddy bear tied to a stick with a string of bailing twine. I expect most gsd pups could do anything little gelmo can do. For all intents and purposes he's just a random sample from the gsd genepool. I don't mean to tout him as "above average" by any stretch. When I say "blown away" I mean by the breed at large, not this individual specifically.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> At this age especially, you can't push. Either the dog wants to, or he doesn't.
> 
> Wolf depredation is on the rise here, and they've killed dogs in broad daylight not 30 miles away. Last summer they killed 13 sheep in a pen. Little gelmo sleeps in a chain link kennel right outside my window, so he's safe at night. All I expect of him is to wake me in the event of trouble. But come fall, when mothers start teaching pups to hunt... You just never know... Coyote and wolf range overlaps here and occasional hybrid offspring are unnaturally aggressive.
> 
> Sooner or later he may choose to put his life on the line for what's mine, and I intend to do everything in my power to prepare him for that scenario. Failure to do so on my part would be no different than sending you on a tour of duty without ammo. For now he's just a happy puppy playing a fun game, but someday he may very well find himself backed into a corner.


That is abnormally aggressive and wasteful for wolves. They are the ghosts of the forest for a reason and seldom kill more then they need. Confronting dogs is an anomalous behavior. Stalking? Absolutely. Defending a den site without question but wolves are characterized as curious not aggressive.
Anyway, thanks for the answer. I raise them a bit different and a bit the same. At your boys age we are exploring and learning the world. Climbing, chasing, killing teddies. BUT my pups sleep with me, are often fed by hand and encouraged to follow me into, onto or over anything. We do crate training and learn to be alone. Different goals I guess. I am raising with an eye to personal protection, you are teaching guarding. The job you need is of necessity independent of humans. The goals I have very clearly involve me being the focus.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

In fond remembrance I inform readers that bear fell victim to a fatal training accident earlier this evening. We did everything we could for him, but in the end he was just too weak. Bear was brilliant and amazing, but he lived life on the edge and he knew the risks he was taking. Life is short. Shorter for some than others. And so little gelmo and I solemnly forge ahead on our quest without him. Gone but never forgotten…


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

RIP little bear! You perished for a good cause!

PS: that didn't look like an accident to me; I trust there will be a full and thorough investigation of the incident...


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