# MORE Pet Food FRAUD!



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

And we wonder WHY our poor dogs are coming up with SO many reactions to foods !!! :angryfire:

A California company that supplies premium ingredients to pet food companies faces a criminal charge in federal court here and accusations that it misbranded its products *by using too many lower-quality ingredients, such as chicken feathers, and not enough real chicken and other meat.

*Both Wilbur-Ellis and Henry R. Rychlik, a feed division employee who was responsible for the animal protein products from a facility in Rosser, Texas, were charged Monday with four misdemeanor counts of introduction of adulterated food into interstate commerce and four counts of introduction of misbranded food into interstate commerce. 

The charges claim that the Rosser facility used chicken byproduct meal, B-grade “chicken bone byproduct meal,” turkey byproduct meal, “hydrolyzed poultry feathers” or “feather meal” instead of chicken and turkey meal.
The company also blended chicken and turkey byproduct meal with other ingredients to make it “appear better and of greater value than the product was.”
Read the article here: Pet food supplier accused of too many chicken feathers, not enough chicken, in food | Business | stltoday.com 

Per Susan Thixton: 
Filed in the Eastern District of Missouri courts on March 6, 2017 – Wilbur-Ellis is now facing four counts of criminal charges for their sale of mislabeled/misbranded pet food ingredients, an employee of Wilbur-Ellis is facing an additional four counts of criminal charges.
United States of America, Plaintiff v. Wilbur-Ellis Company and Henry R. Rychlik, Jr., Defendants​ Pet food ingredient supplier Wilbur-Ellis was charged _“with four misdemeanor counts of introduction of adulterated food into interstate commerce and four counts of introduction of misbranded food into interstate commerce.”_ The company and an employee was _“issued a summons Tuesday to appear in court March 14.”_


One of eight counts against this pet food ingredient supplier…
"WILBUR-ELLIS COMP ANY and HENRY R. RYCHLIK, JR., the defendants herein, and others, through an Eastern District of Missouri broker/distributor, introduced, delivered for introduction, and caused the introduction and delivery for introduction into interstate commerce of food products, as the term food is defined in 21 U.S.C. Section 321(f), that were adulterated, namely a shipment, with an approximate weight of 48,340 pounds, from Rosser, Texas, of an animal protein product and ingredient for pet food which was falsely labeled as “Chicken Meal,” when in fact the product and ingredient was not the premium pet food product and ingredient chicken meal but *an adulterated mix and blend of hydrolyzed poultry feathers, poultry by-product meal and chicken by-product meal that omitted chicken meal.*"

No information was provided within the court documents disclosing which pet food companies purchased feather meal or by-product meal labeled as a higher quality chicken meal; it is unlikely this information will ever be disclosed to the public. We know that Blue Buffalo Pet Food purchased from Wilbur-Ellis (disclosed in court documents via the Purina v. Blue lawsuit), but we do not know who else Wilbur-Ellis sold to. 
Pet Food Ingredient Giant Wilbur-Ellis facing Criminal Charges ? Truth about Pet Food 

UNBELIEVABLE! 
Moms


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Wow!! That is just terrible! I hope there will be a list of foods that use this source?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Sigh, I honestly don't completely trust any company. Their whole purpose for existing is to make a profit for its shareholders, that's it! People have been feeding their dogs homemade food for thousands of years, I still say homemade is the best way to go.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Concerning that it states "too many chicken feathers." I didn't realize dog food contained ANY chicken feathers...


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

kimbale said:


> Concerning that it states "too many chicken feathers." I didn't realize dog food contained ANY chicken feathers...


Feathers make up a significant portion of "Chicken by-product meal" a very very common dog food ingredient. It seems this company was trying to pass of "chicken by product meal" as "chicken meal".

And this is why I spend a few hours each week preparing the majority of my guy's diet from super market ingredients. And why the list of dog food companies I buy from is a very short one.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Feathers make up a significant portion of "Chicken by-product meal" a very very common dog food ingredient. It seems this company was trying to pass of "chicken by product meal" as "chicken meal".
> 
> And this is why I spend a few hours each week preparing the majority of my guy's diet from super market ingredients. And why the list of dog food companies I buy from is a very short one.


Wow! I did not know that! Good thing I don't buy food that says "by-product" anywhere on the ingredients. Yet another reason my dog gets lots of raw.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Sigh, I honestly don't completely trust any company. Their whole purpose for existing is to make a profit for its shareholders, that's it! People have been feeding their dogs homemade food for thousands of years, I still say homemade is the best way to go.


 Do you feed homemade? 
And a question for anyone. homemade dog food recipes that can be made in large quantities. I have a 65# dog and two 75# dogs. If I could make large quantities and freeze portions that would be ideal. Right now I feed them Fromm heartland gold grain free kibble and I add raw meat. Beef or venison 3/4 pound each to their afternoon kibble. so I am already spending more on them for food than my wife, son and myself.
I don't knowingly feed chicken to my dogs so anything chicken doesn't work for me.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I wish I could afford to feed my dog raw all organic. Some day when I'm rich or find an affordable source


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> Do you feed homemade?
> And a question for anyone. homemade dog food recipes that can be made in large quantities. I have a 65# dog and two 75# dogs. If I could make large quantities and freeze portions that would be ideal. Right now I feed them Fromm heartland gold grain free kibble and I add raw meat. Beef or venison 3/4 pound each to their afternoon kibble. so I am already spending more on them for food than my wife, son and myself.
> I don't knowingly feed chicken to my dogs so anything chicken doesn't work for me.


I also feed Fromm when I feel lazy, I try to make a big pot of rice and boil a chicken with carrots. I strip the entire chicken and ration out the portions for the whole week. I also use the chicken stock to soften the food. He loves it. I also buy liver or beef and roast it in the oven if I want to switch it up. Some people are very strict when it comes to feeding their dogs, I just try to give them something they would eat in the wild. Some eggs, chicken, meat.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Do you feed homemade?
> And a question for anyone. homemade dog food recipes that can be made in large quantities. I have a 65# dog and two 75# dogs. If I could make large quantities and freeze portions that would be ideal. Right now I feed them Fromm heartland gold grain free kibble and I add raw meat. Beef or venison 3/4 pound each to their afternoon kibble. so I am already spending more on them for food than my wife, son and myself.


Most good recipes can be scaled up and made in bulk. When I had the freezer space available I'd spend a day and do like 2 or 3 months worth for my guys. 

The thing with homemade is that it really depends on what your personal feeding philosophy is. Do you want all of the nutrients to come from whole food sources, or are you comfortable using commercial supplements? Raw or Cooked? Starchy Carbs or No? All meat or Veggies too? 

I am a fan of using commercial supplements. It makes preparing a homemade diet very easy. I like Balance It and fresh oasis canine. Neither company sources from china. Both the same idea - just follow the instructions on the bottle, add to fresh foods and you have a 100% complete and balanced diet. Balance it is just the vitamins, Oasis also include probiotics and some other stuff. If price is a concern then the fresh oasis wins out. It costs around $0.25 a day for a GSD sized dog. There are others out there, but these are what I use.

It can be as easy as portioning out a days worth of either cooked or raw meat for each dog and then adding a scoop of the supplement into the bowl at feeding time. Or you can get a little more involved with it. I usually make a stew in the crock pot or a smoothie in the blender - what ever veggies I get on sale, some sort of starchy carb like sweet potatos or rice, some blueberries etc. Maybe drizzle in some coconut oil Then just portion out with the meat and freeze. I like to give a variety so the recipe is always changing a bit. Depending on what meat you use and how much of the diet coming from carbs you are comfortable with - You can do homemade for large breeds for $25 - $30 a month. I did a mostly chicken low carb diet with supplement for $45 a month for my ex's GSD. These are grocery store prices. If you have a good source for meat you can get it even lower. 

I've done the all nutrients coming from whole food sources thing. It takes a lot more effort and IME was far more expensive. I easily spent well into the triple digits for a single dog. You have to deal with balancing organ and bone to meat etc. I, personally, do not see much of a difference health wise in my dogs between all food sourced nutrition vs using supplements. 

Then of course, if you were inclined you could analyze your recipe, figure out exactly what you need to supplement and buy each item individually.. (Like going down to GNC and buying a bottle of vitamin E). But I like the ease of the all in one supplements designed for dogs.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I also feed Fromm when I feel lazy, I try to make a big pot of rice and boil a chicken with carrots. I strip the entire chicken and ration out the portions for the whole week. I also use the chicken stock to soften the food. He loves it. I also buy liver or beef and roast it in the oven if I want to switch it up. Some people are very strict when it comes to feeding their dogs, I just try to give them something they would eat in the wild. Some eggs, chicken, meat.


The rice/chicken/carrots is not a balanced diet. It is deficient in several nutrients - far below necessary levels of Calcium, Zinc, Iron, Vitamin E, Choline, and several others. If you are using it as anything other than a topper for the kibble then you are running a risk of malnutrition.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I just began to experiment with The Honest Kitchen. Although my dogs eat anything, I was still surprised to see them inhaling this, since the texture is so different. It will be interesting!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

gsdluvr said:


> I just began to experiment with The Honest Kitchen. Although my dogs eat anything, I was still surprised to see them inhaling this, since the texture is so different. It will be interesting!


YEAH!!!!! :happyboogie:

Yes, please keep us posted, and don't forget that they may go thru some sort of detoxing (healing/herxing) from switching from dog food to "real" food. Let me know if you want a list of "detox signs". 

Moms


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I also feed Fromm when I feel lazy, I try to make a big pot of rice and boil a chicken with carrots. I strip the entire chicken and ration out the portions for the whole week. I also use the chicken stock to soften the food. He loves it. I also buy liver or beef and roast it in the oven if I want to switch it up. Some people are very strict when it comes to feeding their dogs, I just try to give them something they would eat in the wild. Some eggs, chicken, meat.


Dogs eat cooked rice, carrots, and meat in the wild?


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> Feathers make up a significant portion of "Chicken by-product meal" a very very common dog food ingredient. It seems this company was trying to pass of "chicken by product meal" as "chicken meal".


Actually, feathers are not supposed to make up a"significant portion" of chicken by-product meal. 

"Poultry By-Product Meal: consist of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices."


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

LeoRose said:


> Actually, feathers are not supposed to make up a"significant portion" of chicken by-product meal.
> 
> "Poultry By-Product Meal: consist of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered poultry, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers except in such amounts as might occur unavoidably in good processing practices."


You're right. Significant portion was bad phrasing on my part.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> Feathers make up a significant portion of "Chicken by-product meal" a very very common dog food ingredient. It seems this company was trying to pass of "chicken by product meal" as "chicken meal".
> 
> And this is why I spend a few hours each week preparing the majority of my guy's diet from super market ingredients. And why the list of dog food companies I buy from is a very short one.


Royal Canin Ultanimo uses feather meal as almost the exclusive protein source. They hydrolize it so the dog isn't supposed to be able to recognize what it is. So basically it is recycled garbage put through an atomic bomb sold for $100 per bag.

This is not second hand information, I found an article written by some honcho at Royal Canin about how smart they were for doing this, like publicly bragging about it. I don't think feathers are digestible for a dog, or they can't get any nutrition from it, until it has been altered...freaky


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> Dogs eat cooked rice, carrots, and meat in the wild?


Yes. Obviously you have not been around many wild dogs lately.

The Executive Chef dog sources the rice, vegetables, and meat, and directs the Sous Chef dog on preparation. They have perfected the art of hauling water and building fires and chopping food, all without opposable thumbs. And it's all done in bulk and served in what's akin to a soup kitchen, only for dogs in the wild and it's cooked rice, carrots, and meat.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Royal Canin Ultanimo uses feather meal as almost the exclusive protein source. They hydrolize it so the dog isn't supposed to be able to recognize what it is. So basically it is recycled garbage put through an atomic bomb sold for $100 per bag.
> 
> This is not second hand information, I found an article written by some honcho at Royal Canin about how smart they were for doing this, like publicly bragging about it. I don't think feathers are digestible for a dog, or they can't get any nutrition from it, until it has been altered...freaky


So he bragged that he's basically saving a buck by picking the feathers off the floor....


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cloudpump said:


> So he bragged that he's basically saving a buck by picking the feathers off the floor....


It's probably more than saving a buck, I mean they are selling garbage for $100 a bag. She did have really firm stools on it but lost a lot of muscle mass and I bet it is the protein source. I will try to find the article and link it. But it struck me since it came straight from the company, no question about it


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcba...thers-a-win-win-for-royal-canin/#2050f455456f

let me know if that link works. Here is an excerpt

MEB: Your Anallergenic formula uses chicken feathers as the main source of protein. Sounds pretty counterintuitive. How did you come up with the idea?

This product was ten years in development, and designed to address a very specific need. Some dogs have intense allergic reactions to certain kinds of proteins. Conventional wisdom was focused on limited ingredient diets – fewer ingredients that would minimize the chances of an allergic reaction. But some dogs would not respond even to these diets. Anallergenic takes it a step further – through a completely different source of proteins.

We have a team in France that is traveling the world to find ingredients. In this case it’s feather meal. It’s not only nutritious but can also be made very palatable to dogs. Feathers are broken down to an amino acid level and don’t have much of a taste. Then we add palatizers for taste. In this case, we have to be very careful not to provoke an allergic reaction. That’s why it took so long to develop this particular food. We’re looking for lots of different sources of protein for our foods: hydrolyzed soy; we are currently researching worm meal as a potential protein source for some of our foods in China. I tried some kibble made with worm meal once – it tasted very good. So our approach goes way beyond feathers.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcba...thers-a-win-win-for-royal-canin/#2050f455456f
> 
> let me know if that link works. Here is an excerpt
> 
> ...


The bolded part was a little startling for me to read. 

Though it seems distasteful, I guess I can't outright dispute it, I don't have a deep enough knowledge base....

But I do understand bird development quite well, having raised many of them. Birds raised for egg or meat production usually have poor feather quality because there isn't an emphasis on feeding for keratin synthesis (necessary for good quality feather growth). If deficient, some birds resort to eating their own feathers (or the feathers of other birds housed together). So, a number of growers supplement (add more) specific aminos in order to boost feather development.

So... production birds are fed extra aminos, to produce sufficient feathers (a byproduct!), that are broken back down to their amino level, to be fed to dogs. That's quite the food chain....


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Dogs eat cooked rice, carrots, and meat in the wild?


Idk about cooked but my dogs if left to themselves would clean my garden out. Last year they continually stole tomatoes, dug up carrots, bell peppers, squash, ripped corn off the stalks. That's just my garden. They also stole peaches, pears, apples. 
This year I put up fences to keep the put of my produce.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MOMS, thank you so much for staying on top of this stuff. Has anyone ever seen a dog kill and eat a whole chicken? Do they consume some of the feathers? Just wondering.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> The rice/chicken/carrots is not a balanced diet. It is deficient in several nutrients - far below necessary levels of Calcium, Zinc, Iron, Vitamin E, Choline, and several others. If you are using it as anything other than a topper for the kibble then you are running a risk of malnutrition.


Up until the industrialized 1900s, dogs did just fine for thousands of years eating scraps. I feed them high quality food. Not to mention almost every dog I ever met has died of cancer probably due to processed food. But hey, its like a 10 billion dollar industry to they tell you all this crap about not getting enough nutrients, please.



cloudpump said:


> Dogs eat cooked rice, carrots, and meat in the wild?


Im sure they eat veggies and fruits in the wild, and meat, the rice is just used as a filler.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Well, you do you Julian. But spreading false information about something as important as health is pretty dangerous. Dogs need bone. If they aren't getting bone, they need a calcium supplement. And that's really just the start...


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> MOMS, thank you so much for staying on top of this stuff. Has anyone ever seen a dog kill and eat a whole chicken? Do they consume some of the feathers? Just wondering.


Wild canines usually leave all the feathers - you just find a scattered pile of fluff, sometimes a foot.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk about cooked but my dogs if left to themselves would clean my garden out. Last year they continually stole tomatoes, dug up carrots, bell peppers, squash, ripped corn off the stalks. That's just my garden. They also stole peaches, pears, apples.
> This year I put up fences to keep the put of my produce.


This year I put up fence to keep THEM OUT of my produce.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> MOMS, thank you so much for staying on top of this stuff.


........


Many years ago when our first GSD was dying (at 2 years old), I started researching ingredients in dog food and supplements and I continue to this day! 

That is when I began feeding "real" food and supplementing with high quality products......she lived until just shy of her 12th birthday!

Check out the book by Ann Martin....Food Pets Die For https://www.amazon.com/Food-Pets-Die-Shocking-Facts/dp/0939165562 



Moms


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Up until the industrialized 1900s, dogs did just fine for thousands of years eating scraps. I feed them high quality food. Not to mention almost every dog I ever met has died of cancer probably due to processed food. But hey, its like a 10 billion dollar industry to they tell you all this crap about not getting enough nutrients, please.
> .


for the record, I agree with you about the pet food industry. My own dog eats a home prepared diet.

But that doesn't change the fact that what you are feeding, as described in your previous post, is woefully deficient in several vital nutrients for dogs. 

You are right, dogs did fine for thousands of years on scraps... The stuff humans don't eat. But that's the key right there. SCRAPS. Bones for one. Dogs need much more calcium per pound than a human does. Scraps also included entrails. Brains. Eye balls. - All very rich sources of multiple nutrients. Amongst other scraps like grains and vegetable scraps, as well as dairy and raw milk. Plus don't forget that for these thousands of years - for the most part, dogs were not shut into a home. They had ample opportunity to hunt and devour small game. Another source of organs. 

If you are worried about cancer... Micronutrient deficiencies are a HUGE risk factor for cancer. Like one of the biggest there is. 

Insufficient intake of micro nutrients such as Folic acid, Vitamin B, Vitamin C, Zinc, Iron, Vitamin E (Several of which a diet of chicken, rice, and carrots would be deficient in) actually cause DNA damage.

It's the way the body processes work. Cells divide, they copy themselves. When there is not enough of micronutrients in the body, there are more errors in the cellular process. Like a printer running out of ink. 

The chromosome breaks from nutritional deficiency actually mimic the damage done by _radiation_. 

An organism can appear healthy and fine for years all while the trace mineral and vitamin deficiency wreaks havoc on the cellular level. 

Please, for the sake of your dog, put more research into making sure it's needs are met if you want to feed a home cooked diet. Otherwise it would be worse than feeding Ol'Roy. 

This is a good place to start:
http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> MOMS, thank you so much for staying on top of this stuff. Has anyone ever seen a dog kill and eat a whole chicken? Do they consume some of the feathers? Just wondering.


Our beagle would catch smaller birds and eat them whole, feathers and all. :grin2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> for the record, I agree with you about the pet food industry. My own dog eats a home prepared diet.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that what you are feeding, as described in your previous post, is woefully deficient in several vital nutrients for dogs.
> 
> ...


I would just add that way back when...did most people really care that much if their dogs were half starved mangy mutts? Excluding perhaps more valuable working dogs, I mean, I remember what the ditch dogs in rural Georgia were like just in my life. Puppies loaded with hundreds of ticks and big bloated bellies. They probably threw scraps to those dogs. But they weren't living a good life...


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> for the record, I agree with you about the pet food industry. My own dog eats a home prepared diet.
> 
> But that doesn't change the fact that what you are feeding, as described in your previous post, is woefully deficient in several vital nutrients for dogs.
> 
> ...


I feed Fromm holistic almost every day. I mix in chicken, rice, meat, chicken stock, goat milk, yogurt as well.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I feed Fromm holistic almost every day. I mix in chicken, rice, meat, chicken stock, goat milk, yogurt as well.


Whew! 

The added vitamins and minerals in the kibble should have your dog pretty well covered, as long as you are feeding close to the recommended guidelines. It is very dependent on the kibble company as to how much you can cut out to make sure the needs are met. I sometimes feed Ziwipeak and can actually cut that back by a smidge more than half and still have all the micro's met. Often if you call the company they can tell you this information. Or you can do the math on it lol

That's why I mentioned it was deficient, unless it was just a topper for the kibble, which it sounds like it is.

I like topping kibble. I wish more people who fed kibble were like you, and doctor it up


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I feed Fromm holistic almost every day. I mix in chicken, rice, meat, chicken stock, goat milk, yogurt as well.


Does your brother feed the same?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I feed Fromm holistic almost every day. I mix in chicken, rice, meat, chicken stock, goat milk, yogurt as well.


 I also do this daily. I have for about a year now. Just raw meat though. . However, I wish I could do away with the kibble. I found a butcher who could give me all the organs and bones I would need really cheap. He sells me ground beef for fifty cents a pound. Could get chicken really cheap also but my oldest Rosko has allergies to chicken. I just don't have any time right now to figure out how to completely switch over safely


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Whew!
> 
> The added vitamins and minerals in the kibble should have your dog pretty well covered, as long as you are feeding close to the recommended guidelines. It is very dependent on the kibble company as to how much you can cut out to make sure the needs are met. I sometimes feed Ziwipeak and can actually cut that back by a smidge more than half and still have all the micro's met. Often if you call the company they can tell you this information. Or you can do the math on it lol
> 
> ...


Yeah, my family is European and they always tell me how back home they would never neuter their dogs and never feed processed food. They would get their weekly supply of meat from the local butcher and he would give them scraps for practically free and they would feed the dogs that.



cloudpump said:


> Does your brother feed the same?


Pretty much.



cdwoodcox said:


> I also do this daily. I have for about a year now. Just raw meat though. . However, I wish I could do away with the kibble. I found a butcher who could give me all the organs and bones I would need really cheap. He sells me ground beef for fifty cents a pound. Could get chicken really cheap also but my oldest Rosko has allergies to chicken. I just don't have any time right now to figure out how to completely switch over safely


I tried raw meat mixed with the kibble but it led to severe mutant diarrhea, I also can never get the ratios right. I also tried raw eggs with the shells and it also led to diarrhea, to my understanding you have to be consistent with the raw diet because if you keep switching from store bought to raw it will mess their stomach up. I was hoping that it was sorta like getting a vaccine, that once you feed them something once, you're set for life and you can keep switching around the foods.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

They may have 'survived' for thousands of years but how long did they live? Surviving and longevity are two different concepts. Have you seen the shape these scrap eating dogs are in? Deja is on half raw and the other half is HK and Orijin. You can tell she is not surviving but thriving.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

If you aren't feeding the recommended amount of kibble daily, then the other food really needs to be balanced to cover all the nutrients. Even if you're feeding half kibble, the other half of 'real' food probably needs to be balanced on its own to be complete in and of itself.


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