# 5 month old is out of control - even after completing training



## intothevoiddd (Feb 11, 2014)

My pup is 5 months old and 50lbs. We originally had him in treat training, realized it wasn't a good fit as we were having lots of behavioral problems and decided to put him in choke collar training. We had the most wonderful trainer who worked miracles on our dog, literally turned him into a new dog. We have been very consistent, and our dog was behaving very appropriately both at home and on walks. 

He turned 5 months 2 weeks ago, and since then it has been an absolute nightmare. He is back to all of his bad behaviors. He attacks our cat, he barks at old ladies with hair up on walks, he is out of control pulling on walks, he's on the counters and table, in the garbage, nipping, out of control when guests are over, etc... 

I don't know what the problem is. He was totally fine a few weeks ago, and now it's total chaos again. We just finished up obedience training, but he started doing this before the last week. In particular he is not responding to the choke collar anymore, he just pulls and pulls to his hearts content despite how many times we "pop" him. We aren't being aggressive obvious, just trying to keep him under control, but when he is fighting it it looks quite bad. We have to physically restrain him sometimes and we get some very dirty looks. It's really hard on me because of his size now. I think he understands he is gaining the upper hand and just says whatever to me. In training class he was always a real peach, and he has been very good for my boyfriend up until recently. 

I was thinking maybe this was because of the teenage stage, but it seems to be too early for that. Any thoughts or advice?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

all i can say is 
if what you are doing is not working then do something different
if the choke chain is tight it wont work like its supposed to anyway
find a new trainer
all a trainer does is help you learn to communicate with your dog btw
they dont 'fix" the dog


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

That's about the right age to start rebelling. If it were me, I'd take another round of training sessions.


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## voodoogsd (Aug 5, 2014)

my pup is 7 months and she was acting similar. I had tried the "choke chain" but she would pull just like yours and not care that it was tightening. We moved to using a prong collar and and after about a minute of introducing it to her she was back on track. Walking on leash nicely. sitting when stopping. no longer lunging after rabbits and squirrels. and in the house. i would keep her on leash with the collar on inside and after a few corrections, she was awesome. check this video out. i thought it was pretty helpful in starting. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nf0bA9sudM


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## intothevoiddd (Feb 11, 2014)

voodoogsd said:


> my pup is 7 months and she was acting similar. I had tried the "choke chain" but she would pull just like yours and not care that it was tightening. We moved to using a prong collar and and after about a minute of introducing it to her she was back on track. Walking on leash nicely. sitting when stopping. no longer lunging after rabbits and squirrels. and in the house. i would keep her on leash with the collar on inside and after a few corrections, she was awesome. check this video out. i thought it was pretty helpful in starting.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nf0bA9sudM


That's perfect, thank you! After read your post I remember my trainer saying to use a prong collar if the chain alone wasn't enough. Hallelujah, this might be a life saver lol.


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

they are the devil for a few months. my guy is about 8.5 months and is still a rascal but waaaay better than he was from 5-7 months.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The problem isn't the tools


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Baillif said:


> The problem isn't the tools


:thumbup:

There's no such thing as "completing training." Don't look at it as "I trained him but now that's over and now he's reverting." Training is a daily thing. Look at training as your lifestyle in terms of your dog. Everything is a training opportunity, be it in engagement, in teaching and reinforcing rules, etc. What do you do for training daily? Do you incorporate it into daily life?


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## intothevoiddd (Feb 11, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> There's no such thing as "completing training." Don't look at it as "I trained him but now that's over and now he's reverting." Training is a daily thing. Look at training as your lifestyle in terms of your dog. Everything is a training opportunity, be it in engagement, in teaching and reinforcing rules, etc. What do you do for training daily? Do you incorporate it into daily life?


We do incorporate it daily. Walking him daily, making him stop and sit and every corner. At home we have rules, he isn't allowed to leave the floor we're on, can't chase the cat, has to lay down on his "place" before he gets fed, has to wait until we say it's OK to eat, working on making him stay in his place when visitors arrive, etc... We try to incorporate training into our lifestyle, we give commands and rules that are reasonable and beneficial. He picks up on them quickly, he's just always try to push the boundaries and doesn't like to cooperate unless we correct him. He constantly tries to break the rules.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> At home we have rules, he isn't allowed to leave the floor we're on, can't chase the cat, has to lay down on his "place" before he gets fed, has to wait until we say it's OK to eat, working on making him stay in his place when visitors arrive, etc


but in your first post


> He attacks our cat, he barks at old ladies with hair up on walks, he is out of control pulling on walks, he's on the counters and table, in the garbage, nipping, out of control when guests are over, etc...


so your rules are not working
so do something different
for starters this puppy is far too young to be not on a leash and crated for periods throughout the day
and up the exercise
a tired puppy is a good puppy

i think your puppys training may be situational
he does fine at the place he is trained but he has not generalized it to home

also he is a budding teen and feeling his oats

step up training and exercise
he is just being left to make his own choices and puppys rarely make good choices for themselves


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> but in your first post
> 
> 
> so your rules are not working
> ...



Agreed. When my female went through the "pushy" stage, she was on leash, all the time. She learned pretty quick that being tethered meant swift correction and not a lot was lost in translation or timing. It doesn't really have much to do with obedience training so much as learning "no means no." What do you do when he breaks the rules? Do you correct consistently, and immediately? I would really suggest leashing in the house... it worked wonders for me both for not giving her the opportunity to misbehave, as well as being able to quickly and consistently correct.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The big issue is the training occurred with positive reinforcement and as GSDs age their motivation becomes less about food and more about play and toys or adventure. In short your horse doesn't care about the carrots anymore and you haven't introduced a stick yet. You're gonna want a good trainer to show you how to go about doing that.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i disagree
you can make training fun and positive with toys and exercise as motivation
besides they used a choke chain not exactly a 'positve' experience or type of training but punishment based so not sure how your theory of 'get a bigger stick' is gonna be of use

to use your horse example 
get apples instead of carrots but again that is not exactly how they trained

not sure why so many think dogs need to be whaled on to make em mind


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The big issue is the training occurred with positive reinforcement and as GSDs age their motivation becomes less about food and more about play and toys or adventure. In short your horse doesn't care about the carrots anymore and you haven't introduced a stick yet. You're gonna want a good trainer to show you how to go about doing that.


It looked like they said they switched from treat training pretty early to training with a choke chain and using corrections.

I agree with others that it sounds like you need to step it up to his new found energy. More exercise, more boundaries, less freedom for him. And training will be an ongoing thing throughout most of his life. Finishing training, especially at five months, really isn't a thing for a GSD. 

Mine was an absolute angel until about the same time, but we had limited freedom, very clear rules, training every single day. It paid off because when he decided to push, I pushed back hard. He learned quickly it doesn't matter how ramped up he gets, he will NOT get his way.

Moving to a prong could be helpful as far as a better consequence. But I also don't see any evidence of reward. Why not use something he likes (like a ball) to reward good behavior? The only thing it can do is show him it is fun to work with you as opposed to fighting you every step of the way. It can also help balance the training out a bit and make his choices more clear. That way it is obviously better to sit for greeting and then earn a reward than it would be to try to lunge and receive a correction.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> i disagree
> you can make training fun and positive with toys and exercise as motivation
> besides they used a choke chain not exactly a 'positve' experience or type of training but punishment based so not sure how your theory of 'get a bigger stick' is gonna be of use
> 
> ...


The point was the training was possibly or has become unbalanced and more than likely unclear....not that he needs a "bigger stick," only that he needs to be balanced.

How many dogs have you successfully trained through your program, MDB? 


I haven't read any of the other posts....

OP, I don't know what "choke collar training" is....or "treat training." Imo, you need a trainer with lots of tools, experience, and is willing to change his "program" to adhere to what the dog needs, all while maintaining balance in the training. The thing with puppy training is it has to continue through to the maturity of the dog. The consistency and clarity (balance) needs to remain, regardless of "rebellious stages." The dog can't "get away with" behavior one second and be punished the next. The expectation can't be gone one minute and there the next. If you liked your previous trainer I'd give them a call and say you've had some regression and need a refresher. Any good trainer would help you out, follow up down the line is a part of the package with the dogs my partner and I train.


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## intothevoiddd (Feb 11, 2014)

Good news everyone, I took him for a walk with a prong collar. Had to pull on it 3 times, once when he tried to chase a squirrel, once when barked at a dog, once when he barked at a construction worker. After 3 pulls on it he was absolutely perfect, A++ great walk for both pup and owner!! He walked next to my side no problems whatsoever, did exactly what he was supposed to do - I wasn't pulling him and he wasn't pulling me. We also passed several kids and dogs (which he usually barks at) without any issue, after the first couple pulls.

Brought him home and he was tuckered out enough to not even bother with any of his bad behaviors. 

Oh, also, we reward him with praise and pets. The pets seem to work very well, it boosts his confidence (albeit sometimes a little TOO much )


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A PRONG ON A 5 MONTH OLD?!?!?

This isn't training. This is looking for a bandaid. This dog isn't going to get trained, It's going to be shut down.

Your expectations are way too high. Some of the things you want out of your dog, are never going to be understood by your dog. Like "stay on the floor we're on" isn't a command, and when you correct for it, the dog has no idea why you're correcting for it. More than likely, it thinks you're correcting it for walking on the stairs, or on some other different flooring, which is just going to lead to the dog being confused.

Dog's rarely do things for pets. It's possible he's happy you're petting him because at that point you're not correcting him/causing pain. This is compulsion training at it's finest. The dog is eventually just going to be scared to move.

My suggestion...go back to treats. Take off the prong, the choke, whatever else you "correct" him with. Build a relationship so that the dog WANTS to be around you. That way, he won't be going to different floors, or different rooms when you're around. That way he wants to be near you and doesn't feel the need to be going to different areas of the house.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I was wondering what your expectations were for a 5 month old GSD? That he is A++ perfect at 5 months? I think sometimes we have crazy high expectations for little puppies. Forcing that on him may lead to big problems later. 

I also wonder about using a prong on a 5 month old. And the thing that I don't like about your post is the use of the word, "Pulled" on the prong. One doesn't pull on this collar. Make sure you know how and when to use a prong collar to avoid problems in the future. If you don't know what I'm talking about pay a trainer to work with you several times so that you are using it correctly. You could do some damage physically and mentally.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

"...he was tuckered out enough to not even bother with any of his bad behaviors."

And there you go. A tired puppy is a happy household. Just my opinion, but I think along with using NILIF, he needs more exercise.


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## intothevoiddd (Feb 11, 2014)

Sorry guys, didn't mean to confuse... my dog is very much so ok! We went to a very reputable trainer who taught us how to properly use both choke collars and prong collars, I didn't go into this blindly. He is not scarred, scared, or hurt in any way.

When I said "pulled" I just meant enough for him to know it was there and that he didn't want that to happen. I wasn't jerking on it.

And as for the stairs, he is very much so aware of how that works. He knows to wait until we tell him it's ok to go up or down them. Just because he knows how it works, doesn't mean that he obeys though . He is always trying to push the boundaries by tip-toeing down the stairs.

I don't expect the world of my dog, I just expect him to respect me. Which right now he isn't. The prong collar definitely helped in that area. When my dog is tuckered out he's at my feet, so I don't think him wanting to be around me is a problem. I may not be an expert, but there is one thing I do know... I will never ever go to treat training!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Baillif said:


> The problem isn't the tools


That would be a GREAT title for a book! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

a tool can be interpreted more than a few ways....so maybe the problem is the tool?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

intothevoiddd said:


> I don't know what the problem is.





> My pup is 5 months old




My pup is 10 months old and hasn't taken a class yet. He can catch 35 disc tosses in a row, he already dock dives twice as far as his dad, and he's got a clean box turn for flyball but if you tell him to "heel" he looks at you like you're nuts. He might sit, down, speak, or shake if he's actually paying attention when you give the command.

Reading through this thread, I think the issue is the expectations of the pup vs. the age and also the training needs to be broken into smaller steps that the dog is actually understanding, not just performing in a certain context.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

intothevoiddd said:


> I may not be an expert, but there is one thing I do know... I will never ever go to treat training!!


You seem very resistant to reward based training. I would rethink this if you want to build a good working relationship with him. The best way to do that is to work reward into his training routine (and pets don't count). Do you not think it works? Or that he would get dependent on treats or something? That's what most people think. I have a 14 month old GSD who has never seen a prong or choke in his life and would prove you wrong - without a single treat or reward in sight.  It's all about applying the tools at your disposal properly, and it'll be detrimental to his development if you completely refuse to use entire quadrants of motivation.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, I started out like you, not "believing" in treat training, because a dog should just obey, because, well . . . just because!

Worked with my first dog, so I figured I knew everything I needed to know about dog training - he turned out great!!! Even an top Therapy dog, because I was such a great dog person, right? 

Well, that all went out the window with my second dog. Adopted from the pound (like the first one), and boy, just couldn't get through to her! The more I tried to 'control' her though shear force of will, the more she clashed, the less progress I made. It was emotionally exhausting, and not fun at all. This was not the relationship I wanted to have with my dog. It was so frustrating, I knew there was a great, smart dog in there, full of potential, but it was like our minds just did NOT communicate. 

So reluctantly, and with a huge dose of humility, I had to entertain the idea that I needed something new, and still had room to learn about dogs and dog training. 

So I signed up for positive, food reward-based obedience classes. Yeah, I was willing to _bribe_ my dog, I had just about given up on everything else (read: trying to dominate my dog). 

OMG! WHAT a difference it made!!! First of all, it was FUN! My dog had fun! It also worked! It was like a switch had been thrown in he brain, and she made the connection about working with me. About figuring out what I wanted and doing it right was fun! AND she was getting treats!!! It was an 8 week class, and at the end, I had a different dog than the one I had walked in with (correction: I had to grab her by the collar, raise her front legs slightly off the ground, and _drag_ her in, to give you an idea of just how out-of-control she was - not because she was fighting me, but because she had no inkling that she was expected to walk WITH me - she was pulling off to go see other stuff with all her might. 

What reward-training (or food training) does, is set up positive associations with actions, with the dog making good decisions, with recognizing and following our expectations of them. It re-inforces the neural pathways that develop when a dog learns something. It changed my dog's attitude from the sense that she HAD to do something, to the sense that she WANTED to do as I asked. 

Of course, I didn't have a 'finished' dog after that first class; we went on to more advanced training, only because I enjoyed it so much, and it benefited her even more. Training is on-going, treats I used for the first couple of years, then phased them out. Now if I tell her something, it doesn't even occur to her to NOT listen, because of the on-going positive reinforcement to listen and follow directions all that early training established. 

So keep an open mind with the treat training, dismissing it because you are not seeing instant results is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater - training takes time. Establishing good behaviours takes time. Extinguishing bad behaviours takes time. Only on TV are difficult behavioural issues fixed in half-hour sessions of harrassing a poor dog that has no idea what is expected of it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I got lucky and didn't go through this with either of mine. I did have to deal with reactivity for a short time but the dog was a little older. First thing is training is ongoing, a couple more classes could do you good. There are distractions in the class setting and it's mentally challenging for a dog, which can tire them out. I personally would not use a prong on a dog this young, but if used correctly it should be no problem. There are so many different training methods and anyone who owns a dog should be open to using any and all of them. For example...a prong for walking, treats for teaching recall, praise for sits and downs, back to treats to teach stays, light corrections for cat chasing issue, etc. One method of training can bore the dog and become robotic. Most importantly is letting the puppy be a puppy, they grow up fast enough without us pushing them to do so. Have fun with the dog and you'll notice the difference.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> i disagree
> you can make training fun and positive with toys and exercise as motivation
> besides they used a choke chain not exactly a 'positve' experience or type of training but punishment based so not sure how your theory of 'get a bigger stick' is gonna be of use
> 
> ...


Right I sure wish I could motivate my dog during training. He always seems so flat and afraid of me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a pup that will be 5 months old in three days. 

I agree that the dog is young, the expectations for behavior seem a bit high, and the need to put down treats is a bit premature. 

If treats aren't working, the dog may be too anxious or too distracted to eat. Sometimes the treats are not as enticing as whatever else is out there. With Moofie, I was getting a pretty lame response with the treats, and then I went to this FreshPet Vital meal that you get in the fridge. He loves it. He brings his A-game when I have those.

Treat training can also be hampered when you give them too often, for poor performance of tasks, and with bad timing. Treats and praise require timing just like corrections do.

I am not against an appropriate physical correction at the right time and for the right reason with a dog. But I would rather set up a dog to succeed and then praise the dog for doing so, than to set up a dog to fail and then punish them for doing so. 

My class has been going on for 9 weeks now. Other than the trainer's dog who already has a Rally title and is an older dog, Moof is the only one there not sporting a prong collar. He is by no means polished. He is 5 months old -- almost. But he is certainly in the same ball park as the rest of the class. I really don't think the tool makes actual training any easier. It may improve the handler's ability to control their dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You don't need gimmicks to train a dog, you need to figure out what your dog responds to best and use that. If treats aren't working or you don't want to use them don't, but find out what motivates him and use it. I disagree that five months is too young to train. All of our puppies start training as soon as we bring them home. We work on indoor manners, on responding to us, and on basic leash training, sit and down. We don't do the recall or stay at that age. I wouldn't walk a five month old too long, but I would tire him out in the yard and take short walks. Training sessions should be short and fun. The point at this age isn't to fully teach obedience, it's to teach the dog to respond to you, to give you his full attention, and to start working as a team. 

I suggest buying a copy of the revised version of The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete and read it a few times.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> You don't need gimmicks to train a dog, you need to figure out what your dog responds to best and use that. If treats aren't working or you don't want to use them don't, but find out what motivates him and use it. I disagree that five months is too young to train. All of our puppies start training as soon as we bring them home. We work on indoor manners, on responding to us, and on basic leash training, sit and down. We don't do the recall or stay at that age. I wouldn't walk a five month old too long, but I would tire him out in the yard and take short walks. Training sessions should be short and fun. The point at this age isn't to fully teach obedience, it's to teach the dog to respond to you, to give you his full attention, and to start working as a team.
> 
> I suggest buying a copy of the revised version of The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete and read it a few times.


No one is saying that five months is too young to train. It is worrying that the puppy is on a choke/prong at five months. Unless there are major issues, puppies typically do best starting out with some type of positive reinforcement. Plus a better relationship, better attention, and better focus are built that way. There is nothing wrong with going to a prong when the dog is older, but the time spent now should be focused on building engagement and excitement with paying attention to the handler, not trying to get perfect obedience.

I'm assuming the revised version does not include outdated things like the alpha roll?

The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell is another great one to look up.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The revised version took out the objectionable parts. 

I had a very active puppy on a small prong at age 5 months but I don't use it to control, rather I let the dog makes its own correction. I also don't think I'd do it again, that was a different kind of situation. We got the dog at four months and it was already pulling in the leash, and had been spoiled with treats used improperly. I had a difficult time weaning the dog off treats. I did eventually switch to a head collar for training, and back to the prong when the dog was older. But it was a rescue who had already been in at least two homes by four months. I had to keep changing things up until I discovered what worked best for that dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

My current dog was on a prong from 5 months..

As mentioned previously its not the tools that are the problem.

Before people get too caught up with the dogs age they should keep in mind that the dog is a pet not a working prospect. All that matters is that a reasonable level of obedience and manners are instilled in the dog. Not drive, precision or power.

Training that into a dog can start early and is very easy not the rocket science many on here like to make it out to be.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell is another great one to look up.


this is an excellent read 

as for pulling on the prong
you skipped the vid then because the point of the prong is not to hurt them by pulling on it

as others said the prong probably isnt fitted right or you got the wrong size
you acclimate the dog to the prong so it _isn't_ pulling on it!
if acclimated properly the dog will stay close and not pull

either way training should be fun for the dog and not punishment based


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've got a 14 week old Malinois puppy.

He has a reliable sit stay down stay and recall from distractions. Not just reliable in the house or training room, reliable as in I walk around everywhere with him off leash outside in the world with distractions. He will perform those behaviors in real world conditions. 

I didn't do this with food rewards aside from luring him to show him what I wanted at first but that was quickly faded out in exchange for my emotions and excitement for him doing the right thing. On the flip side if he fails and he does sometimes (nobody's perfect) then there is a consequence for that.

No leash, no prong, no ecollar, no treat pouch. Just me and the puppy. He's not doing things out of fear, he likes to train. He chooses to do the behavior because not doing it isn't a good option, meanwhile doing it leads to great exciting results and praise. We have a relationship, a real relationship. There are expectations on both sides and there are predictable patterns to how we live together that stay consistent and fair. It isn't based on getting stuff.

There's no NILF. I don't need him hungry to get him to do things for me. I don't need to restrict his freedoms to show him who is boss. I don't need to keep him tethered to me. He is really into me and into what we do and he comes with me because he wants to. He wants to because we have relationship.

So my training isn't punishment based. It's relationship based.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

very good post castle maid!

bailiff a few things i cant help but notice
you seem to be a professional level trainer with a highly motivated and highly driven puppy

the op seems to be a regular owner with a lower drive puppy than yours

you cannot possibly compare the two




Castlemaid said:


> Well, I started out like you, not "believing" in treat training, because a dog should just obey, because, well . . . just because!
> 
> Worked with my first dog, so I figured I knew everything I needed to know about dog training - he turned out great!!! Even an top Therapy dog, because I was such a great dog person, right?
> 
> ...


people get like this with kids too
kids should mind because they are kids and we are the adults and thats that
works perfectly
until it doesnt!
then you have to go back and relearn parenting 101
find out what motivates _that_ kid and do it

theres many many tools in that training box and you owe it to your dog to try them all before writing them off as nonsense


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Why not? What I do isn't rocket science. And while it's true the puppy is special I work most peoples dogs the same way it just doesn't necessarily come as easily as it would to a dog that is a blank slate. It's simply shaping the consequences a dog has for actions in a clear way and allowing it to make a choice. 

When I hand a dog off to an owner I don't send em on their merry way with a treat pouch and a clicker.

OP, you can continue to ask for help on the internet or you can go to the right professional and learn how to make it happen for yourself and cut through all the myth the voodoo and whatever else clouds the way.


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## ChouMaKen (Apr 28, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Why not? What I do isn't rocket science. And while it's true the puppy is special I work most peoples dogs the same way it just doesn't necessarily come as easily as it would to a dog that is a blank slate. *It's simply shaping the consequences a dog has for actions in a clear way and allowing it to make a choice.*
> 
> When I hand a dog off to an owner I don't send em on their merry way with a treat pouch and a clicker.


I am very interested by this, can you please just highlight your reward and/or punishment ways ?

Do you physically correct the dog or you just withhold reward?

thanks


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

These threads always boil down to the same thing. There is a heap of difference between regurging stuff that you have read on the net and actually applying theory to numerous dogs of differing drive level and temperment with proven results.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To each their own…but I don’t believe a prong collar should be used on a 5 month old. I highly doubt you couldn’t find some sort of food that this dog would work for. I’ve yet to meet a dog that doesn’t do something for a hot dog. If the dog doesn’t want to do things for food…stop feeding it for a day or two and you’ll see the dog work for food.

I’m not too worried about the drive building, I’m more worried about the relationship building. The part about the stairs…the handler is equating two different exercises thinking that one will accomplish the other. It won’t. Making a dog wait to go up the stairs until you say so, teaches the dog that when you’re going up/down stairs, he has to wait for you to say it’s alright to go. If you’re not there, what does he have to wait for? On top of that…if you’re not there, there is no risk of a correction, so what’s the worry about going up/down the stairs to explore a little? The dog then gets caught, corrected/yelled at, and has no idea why. Confusion and no training is accomplished.

I’m not saying the dog can’t be trained with compulsion, I really don’t care. My point is that the end goal of the handler is way too difficult for the dog to understand. I don’t even think an older dog could understand something like, “stay on the same floor as me.” My dogs (at their grandparents) will go up/down the stairs when we’re in the basement. If I want them with me, I will call them. They come. I give praise, they realize that I want them near me. An hour later, they might venture upstairs because they’re dogs, and they want to do something. If I want to stop them, I’ll leash or close the door to the upstairs…simple as that. I don’t believe you can expect a dog to “stay in an area” without having some sort of physical restraint. I’m also not saying that a “stay” isn’t possible, but a stay is generally…stay in this one spot…not in this area, which is very clear to the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Legend wore a prong when he was 5 months, and he's actually a bit soft as far as training/temperament. We had the most AWFUL winter and he was (and still is) behind as far as how I normally train a dog. He was 5 months old before I started taking him out on walks (though I was taking him all over from day 1, just not leash walks) and with all the training I do, honestly leash walking is not a huge priority for me. As long as my dogs aren't dragging me around, getting distracted by other people/dogs, or zig-zagging, I don't really care if they are walking 4 feet in front of me or on my right instead of my left. I put a prong on little Legend and we started going for walks. No big deal. I don't use walks for training, they are either for exercise (mostly me), for socialization (in Legend's case he was seeing new places, people, etc and I was giving him more freedom to investigate), or for getting from point A to point B.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My dog was also on a prong at 5 months, to settle down his pulling on walks. I didn't use it to correct him with, at that age -I just wanted a collar on him that he wouldn't want to throw every single ounce of himself into, seriously choking himself, like he was doing on the flat collar. 

He wasn't food motivated _at all_ outdoors, and since I was also using clicker/treat to teach other things, I didn't want to lessen the food reward to him, so I removed it. I personally don't believe in witholding food, even though I'll bet a hungry puppy will do all sorts of things for food, it just isn't something I'm willing to do.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

ChouMaKen said:


> I am very interested by this, can you please just highlight your reward and/or punishment ways ?
> 
> Do you physically correct the dog or you just withhold reward?
> 
> thanks


Both. I of course start with withheld reward but, once I know they know what I am asking for punishment for non compliance within the same pictures begins. Most people assume a dog has to do lots and lots of repetitions before this happens but it is not the case. Many times I will teach a behavior and then begin to nag-punish non compliance in the same session.

There is of course way more to it than this but that is the basic jist of it.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

martemchik said:


> To each their own…but I don’t believe a prong collar should be used on a 5 month old. I highly doubt you couldn’t find some sort of food that this dog would work for. I’ve yet to meet a dog that doesn’t do something for a hot dog. If the dog doesn’t want to do things for food…stop feeding it for a day or two and you’ll see the dog work for food.
> 
> I’m not too worried about the drive building, I’m more worried about the relationship building. The part about the stairs…the handler is equating two different exercises thinking that one will accomplish the other. It won’t. Making a dog wait to go up the stairs until you say so, teaches the dog that when you’re going up/down stairs, he has to wait for you to say it’s alright to go. If you’re not there, what does he have to wait for? On top of that…if you’re not there, there is no risk of a correction, so what’s the worry about going up/down the stairs to explore a little? The dog then gets caught, corrected/yelled at, and has no idea why. Confusion and no training is accomplished.
> 
> I’m not saying the dog can’t be trained with compulsion, I really don’t care. My point is that the end goal of the handler is way too difficult for the dog to understand. I don’t even think an older dog could understand something like, “stay on the same floor as me.” My dogs (at their grandparents) will go up/down the stairs when we’re in the basement. If I want them with me, I will call them. They come. I give praise, they realize that I want them near me. An hour later, they might venture upstairs because they’re dogs, and they want to do something. If I want to stop them, I’ll leash or close the door to the upstairs…simple as that. I don’t believe you can expect a dog to “stay in an area” without having some sort of physical restraint. I’m also not saying that a “stay” isn’t possible, but a stay is generally…stay in this one spot…not in this area, which is very clear to the dog.




I think your selling a lot of dogs short. My dogs are on the mainfloor no upstairs or downstairs. They picked that up from the moment they came in the house. I find dogs pick up on boundaries very quickly. I also never thought a puppy would need a prong..until I met one that did if I didnt want a dog with a crushed trachea. You should see how fast the hunting retriever guys start with their obedience. Running cold blinds, water work, etc. Complicated stuff. You see them starting the dogs at 6 months. In the end there are no hard and fast rules. Its all about your personal needs.

Undoubtedly the OP needs a professional.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think your selling a lot of dogs short. My dogs are on the mainfloor no upstairs or downstairs. They picked that up from the moment they came in the house. I find dogs pick up on boundaries very quickly. I also never thought a puppy would need a prong..until I met one that did if I didnt want a dog with a crushed trachea. You should see how fast the hunting retriever guys start with their obedience. Running cold blinds, water work, etc. Complicated stuff. You see them starting the dogs at 6 months. In the end there are no hard and fast rules. Its all about your personal needs.
> 
> Undoubtedly the OP needs a professional.


It's the way you set your rules though. If you don't ever allow them in those areas, it's one thing. But if you're just trying to get it across to them by correcting when they go upstairs and you’re downstairs…it’s too late (we all know the dog doesn’t connect being on that level to the correction at that point). I also believe a large part of where your dogs are is your relationship with your dog…if it wants to be by you, it will be by you. If YOU are the fun thing in its life that gives it treats/praise/plays tug with it, why would it need to go upstairs…there’s nothing up there.

The prong thing…I had a dog like that…just don’t think it’s necessary to have a prong on that early, they’re still developing and very very few dogs *need* a prong collar at that age. In this type of situation, it’s a relationship thing. The dog just doesn’t care to listen to the owner unless there is a threat of punishment/pain. That’s not how I raise my dogs and don’t believe that his is one of the world’s “hardest” dogs that needs this. Highly doubt OP has a super hard dog that just won’t listen to them unless it’s corrected.

A lot of the issues are due to focus/relationship. When the dog is allowed to roam…it roams. It doesn’t look to interact with the handler. Says a lot about the relationship.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Training is never "completed."


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It's the way you set your rules though. If you don't ever allow them in those areas, it's one thing. But if you're just trying to get it across to them by correcting when they go upstairs and you’re downstairs…it’s too late (we all know the dog doesn’t connect being on that level to the correction at that point). I also believe a large part of where your dogs are is your relationship with your dog…if it wants to be by you, it will be by you. If YOU are the fun thing in its life that gives it treats/praise/plays tug with it, why would it need to go upstairs…there’s nothing up there.
> 
> *Maybe thats were the cat lives..the possibilities are endless. Like I said I have never had issues making boundaries clear to dogs that I keep. That includes open rooms that they have been before.*
> 
> ...


Depends on your definition of necessary. If you have a harder dog with his own mind then you can do all the leash pressure work in the world but at the end of the day if you want to walk any distance without having the dog pulling the whole way and potentially injuring herself you follow the path of least resistance. People seem to think you do some leash pressure work and all of a sudden the pup stops pulling.
Sure they do in some cases, however in many cases the dog is just not ready to retain and generalize that info, especially if your asking for consistent behaviors for any length of time.

I dont expect the pup to walk at heel, that is to much pressure imo. So when the pup gets to be 4 months plus and the weight and strength of the dog is making the pulling uncomfortable I have no issues with people moving to a prong to slow the dog down. The effects of the prong are ofcourse being over exagerated on here. I have used it early then used it on the same adult during protection with the dog pulling heavily into it. I use the same prong to correct the dog, do detail work and protection. Dog isnt a beast either.

They arent all little sponges that love to please no matter how you train.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Depends on your definition of necessary. If you have* a harder dog with his own mind *then you can do all the leash pressure work in the world but at the end of the day if you want to walk any distance without having the dog pulling the whole way and potentially injuring herself you follow the path of least resistance. People seem to think you do some leash pressure work and all of a sudden the pup stops pulling.
> Sure they do in some cases, however in many cases the dog is just not ready to retain and generalize that info, especially if your asking for consistent behaviors for any length of time.
> 
> I dont expect the pup to walk at heel, that is to much pressure imo. So when the pup gets to be 4 months plus and the weight and strength of the dog is making the pulling uncomfortable I have no issues with people moving to a prong to slow the dog down. The effects of the prong are ofcourse being over exagerated on here. I have used it early then used it on the same adult during protection with the dog pulling heavily into it. I use the same prong to correct the dog, do detail work and protection. Dog isnt a beast either.
> ...


I agree! Onyx is not biddable at all. She will only do things if she thinks there is something in it for her. She is fairly independent and a bit of a bully. She is also quite large in structure and reactive. A prong ramped her up when she was 6 months, so I quit using it. But went back to one as nothing else worked. She is food motivated, but when she was in 'the zone' food wasn't important, neither were tugs/balls...she wanted to kill whatever she was reacting to. 
All dogs are different, I have three that are not similar at all as far as training/ handler sensitivity goes. Kacie never needed a prong, using just a flat collar with a bit of pressure and she's fine.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

*positive training*

Dear Friend ur pup may be 50 lbs but he is still a pup, he/she will continue to be so until 1 year (at least). Please have some patience and mercy. Choking beating will only make things worse, and you may end up destroying a fine dog.

Please watch vedios of positive dog training https://www.youtube.com/user/tab289, and try it yourself. It is a good exercise for the owner as well. Stay away from a trainer who claims to have FULLY trained a five month old pup. A five month old pups is only in the learning phase. Let him be pup.

All Best







intothevoiddd said:


> My pup is 5 months old and 50lbs. We originally had him in treat training, realized it wasn't a good fit as we were having lots of behavioral problems and decided to put him in choke collar training. We had the most wonderful trainer who worked miracles on our dog, literally turned him into a new dog. We have been very consistent, and our dog was behaving very appropriately both at home and on walks.
> 
> He turned 5 months 2 weeks ago, and since then it has been an absolute nightmare. He is back to all of his bad behaviors. He attacks our cat, he barks at old ladies with hair up on walks, he is out of control pulling on walks, he's on the counters and table, in the garbage, nipping, out of control when guests are over, etc...
> 
> ...


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Didn't read all the replies, but my thought on original post is that you have a typical German Shepherd pup .

Love your pup, go back to basics ( sit, here, etc.. With treats for correct response) and lose the idea that there is a magic fix.

Your pup needs to mature.

You need to "lead" your pup, not strong arm at this stage.

More exercise, more fun.

You need to be the most fun thing (person) your pup knows.

Fortunately, they are loyal and forgiving.


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