# training collars and agility



## Mikelia

Since this is a gsd forum, primarily working lines, and there is a very common use of the pinch collar on this forum, what are everyones thoughts on agility people not approving of pinch collars? And for the agility folk (if there are any on here) that do use pinch collars in regular training, what do you do at class or at trials? 
I believe all training collars have their good and bad points and all must be used with care. One of my dogs is displaying a behaviour that, outside of agility, I would use a strong correction with the choke or pinch and I know that would be the end of it. However, we must use the halti or gentle leader (I have both, find the halti works better but like the less material of the gentle leader) and it is great for the pulling but does nothing to correct the behaviour. When you have a dominant, unneutered male dog that is in high drive he is not going to respect a halti lol. We do not need training advice but am wondering what everyone else does in these types of situations.


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## Elaine

Why are you using a halti and when are you using it, when you know it doesn't work for you?

I don't understand your question.


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## llombardo

We use plain flat collars where I do agility. All of the dogs use flat collars. They require a higher level of obedience, so where I go there really isn't any unwanted behaviors, because of the level of obedience. I also think that most agility places are purely positive training...treats, toys, and praise.


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## KristiM

I think I get what your asking....at agility trials and around agility people I use a slip collar placed high up around my dogs neck (behind his ears) to give corrections. I also have dominant male that sometimes needs a hard correction in public (at agility trials.) People see that you are correcting but seem to care less since you aren't "jerking" and there is no collar noise that a pinch or regular collar makes. This does however give a different kind of correction than a pinch or regular choke collar, but it works really well for my boy (more diffusing) and I am more comfortable using it around agility people.


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## Bear L

The agility class I'm enrolled in is also 100% positive. I wonder if that's because the breeds that wear pinch collars aren't normally (or not the majority of the) agility dogs? Kind of like IPO are mostly GS so the training methods suits GS more than other breeds? The agility trainer said no old school stuff is allowed, including pinch collars. She also wants every dog to learn to tug, even if you're a 5 lbs dog that isn't into tugging. No, you've to keep trying to get the dog into tug. So there I am, watching the little dog people making sweat just to try to get the dog to tug and the dog just stare at their people jumping around. It seems to be self limiting teaching method that doesn't adjust based on each dog's needs.


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## AgileGSD

I have been MIA on this forum for quite some time. The end of my summer ended up crazy busy, I rescued a Mal pup and just...wasn't thinking of checking in on this forum. I'm back, kinda at least but sorry I missed out/forgot about the course of the week 

Anyway, I did want to respond to this....



Bear L said:


> The agility class I'm enrolled in is also 100% positive. I wonder if that's because the breeds that wear pinch collars aren't normally (or not the majority of the) agility dogs?
> Kind of like IPO are mostly GS so the training methods suits GS more than other breeds? The agility trainer said no old school stuff is allowed, including pinch collars.


 The reason is pretty simple really. Agility is something that works the very best with positive, motivational methods. You can certainly force a dog to do obstacles and follow your commands but they aren't going to do well in agility if trained that way. The very base of a good agility dog is having an excellent relationship with your dog and your dog thinking running agility with you is the most fun thing in the world. And you just don't get there with old school training. 



Bear L said:


> She also wants every dog to learn to tug, even if you're a 5 lbs dog that isn't into tugging. No, you've to keep trying to get the dog into tug. So there I am, watching the little dog people making sweat just to try to get the dog to tug and the dog just stare at their people jumping around. It seems to be self limiting teaching method that doesn't adjust based on each dog's needs.


 There is a reason for the tugging thing too. Tugging/toy drive has many uses in agility - drive building, reward, being engaged with the handler, a "happy" game, a throwable reward, etc. The instructor should be helping these students train their dog to like toys, not just having them throwing toys around hoping the dog will play but it is certainly not wrong to encourage handlers to get their dogs interested in toys/tugging and there are advantages in training if they do so. IMO some trainers get a big obsessed with the tugging thing, you can certainly have a great agility dog who doesn't tug. But it is helpful if they like to chase _something _and being interested in playing with you is a big perk.


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## KristiM

I didn't think the question was regarding actual agility training...but more dealing with a butt head in the agility environment? If it's regarding actual agility training then disregard my answer....teaching and running agility you should use positive methods, otherwise you have a slow dog that doesn't like agility (and it's just unnecessary to use corrections like that in a sport like agility.)


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## llombardo

KristiM said:


> I think I get what your asking....at agility trials and around agility people I use a slip collar placed high up around my dogs neck (behind his ears) to give corrections. I also have dominant male that sometimes needs a hard correction in public (at agility trials.) People see that you are correcting but seem to care less since you aren't "jerking" and there is no collar noise that a pinch or regular collar makes. This does however give a different kind of correction than a pinch or regular choke collar, but it works really well for my boy (more diffusing) and I am more comfortable using it around agility people.


If your at agility trials, at what point are you able to correct the dog with a collar of any type if its running a course? Before/After the course?


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## llombardo

llombardo said:


> If your at agility trials, at what point are you able to correct the dog with a collar of any type if its running a course? Before/After the course?


Nevermind, I see you answered at the same time I asked


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## llombardo

AgileGSD said:


> I
> 
> 
> The reason is pretty simple really. Agility is something that works the very best with positive, motivational methods. You can certainly force a dog to do obstacles and follow your commands but they aren't going to do well in agility if trained that way. The very base of a good agility dog is having an excellent relationship with your dog and your dog thinking running agility with you is the most fun thing in the world. And you just don't get there with old school training.


I agree with this 100%. I can't even imagine correcting the dog with a prong while doing this sport. The more fun they have, the better they do We haven't used a tug in my class, but all the dogs are food/toy motivated. I sometimes you a squeaky ball and it works just as good as food.


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## Bear L

I just wanted to clarify that I agree with the motivational part and understand the reason for the tug. But I also feel the way (or at least the one I attend) seems a bit limiting in terms of motivational methods. If the dog doesn't like tugging, then let it go, try something else. If the dog is a butthead while waiting for his/her turn or started to do misbehave off the field, I don't see why a correction is bad.


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## llombardo

Bear L said:


> I just wanted to clarify that I agree with the motivational part and understand the reason for the tug. But I also feel the way (or at least the one I attend) seems a bit limiting in terms of motivational methods. If the dog doesn't like tugging, then let it go, try something else. If the dog is a butthead while waiting for his/her turn or started to do misbehave off the field, I don't see why a correction is bad.


Most of the people I go with keep their dogs in a crate while they are waiting. If they aren't in the crate, they are laying or sitting down waiting their turn. I can understand a dog being corrected if its not behaving, but a prong IMO would be useless at an agility practice. I sit on the side waiting and doing small obedience things with my dog...I work on focus, leave, watch me, etc. She doesn't even pay attention to the other dogs.


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## AgileGSD

Bear L said:


> I just wanted to clarify that I agree with the motivational part and understand the reason for the tug. But I also feel the way (or at least the one I attend) seems a bit limiting in terms of motivational methods. If the dog doesn't like tugging, then let it go, try something else. If the dog is a butthead while waiting for his/her turn or started to do misbehave off the field, I don't see why a correction is bad.


 What is "being a butthead while waiting"? 

Really what it comes down to is..if you are all positive in teaching agility but everything out outside of agility specific training you tend to be more "old school", your dog's performance in agility will still usually still suffer. 

I already addressed the tug issue. Like I said, I think some people get carried away but there is a reason many top agility people build tug drive. I have seen some Paps with crazy tug drive and they weren't all naturals.


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## harmony

Bear L said:


> I just wanted to clarify that I agree with the motivational part and understand the reason for the tug. But I also feel the way (or at least the one I attend) seems a bit limiting in terms of motivational methods. If the dog doesn't like tugging, then let it go, try something else. If the dog is a butthead while waiting for his/her turn or started to do misbehave off the field, I don't see why a correction is bad.


 A correction is not bad, but sometimes people have a dog that is (find a way to put this) not meant for work or their expectations. I know dogs are pretty and we assume a lot from a breed but, think about it and most important< educate yourself about a breed you "think" you know you might want


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## harmony

I have a few shepherds and they watch my baby when "we" are outside! Everyone here has a job, and I mean everyone! But I do have a few pet dogs too, and they are who they are and could never be anything more


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## MaggieRoseLee

Not sure what the original poster was asking ...

I love and use the prong all the time, but not at agility trials or in agility training. Other HUGE issue with any choke type collar and the equipment is a safety issue if the collars get caught. Plus all the motivational issues mentioned.

In training, I have either a harness or no collar on my dogs.

At trials, I have either no collar on (in the ring) or a slip lead or (with the crazy puppies) I use the Gentle Leader harness to help with pulling issues....


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## llombardo

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I love and use the prong all the time, but not at agility trials or in agility training. Other HUGE issue with any choke type collar and the equipment is a safety issue if the collars get caught. Plus all the motivational issues mentioned.
> .


Just tonite I seen another GSD at agility class and it did have a prong on, but the leash was on the second collar(flat collar)


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## MaggieRoseLee

llombardo said:


> Just tonite I seen another GSD at agility class and it did have a prong on, but the leash was on the second collar(flat collar)


If the owner took prong off as soon as they got near equipment then I guess it's ok.

But I know for a fact that our dogs collars can catch on equipment. Bretta's regular flat collar caught on the jump cups while she was taking a turn tight in midair and it hooked her around. We were lucky it was a light upright and Bretta is almost bullet proof (so she didn't shut down) cause the resulting crash of equipment was loud and it did jerk her around...

Glad it wasn't any type of choker. And I now run my dogs 'naked'. 

Gentle Leader Harnesses work fine if pulling is just the issue. Remove it when you run the dog and put it back on to walk the dog around.

aw:


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## Mikelia

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Not sure what the original poster was asking ...
> 
> I love and use the prong all the time, but not at agility trials or in agility training. Other HUGE issue with any choke type collar and the equipment is a safety issue if the collars get caught. Plus all the motivational issues mentioned.
> 
> In training, I have either a harness or no collar on my dogs.
> 
> At trials, I have either no collar on (in the ring) or a slip lead or (with the crazy puppies) I use the Gentle Leader harness to help with pulling issues....


That is what I was asking, sorry to be unclear. We also run with no collar on, and I use a slip lead up high behind the ears for the most part when we are at trials. Everything agility related is completely positive and there is never a leash on them when we are running. 

To clarify - our training class is in a small building. We are sitting along the side waiting our turn and 'butthead' gets excited about the overly hyper dog running through the tunnel, over the dog walk and jumping on his owner - 6 feet away from us. He barks at the dog. It is just an excitement thing, he is a wonderfully social dog and is fine at trials. But in class he barks at the excited dogs. No hackles, no constant barking, but barking nonetheless. He does NOT act like this anywhere else, and he wears a flat collar most of the time when he is out and about. 
What I am concerned about is that it is an excited frustration behaviour that I see slowly developing, and holding him back with a halti is just building the frustration. I can easily get him to watch me and focus, but I do not believe that is teaching him to ignore the excited dog. We are making progress in shutting his mouth when he barks, telling him quiet and giving him treats after watching the dog run for a few seconds. He is a stable dog and I do not feel we need training advice, I was just wondering what other people who use pinch collars do at class or trial.

added - in his defense his little gsd brain is saying 'control that dog!'. He is a gsd, they want to control things, however he is not to control other peoples dogs - even if their owners are not lol. He is fine with these dogs before class, while they are waiting and after class. If let off lead to run to them while they are running their course he would just visit. He is not aggressive, just needs a good correction to stop the behaviour - which I am not able to do with a halti.


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## JayneA

All my dogs run (agility) in flat collars for safety. I don't use prongs anyway (different story) but there is no WAY that I would risk a prong / choke / half check etc getting caught on equipment.

If (and believe me they are) my dogs are s***s between runs then I do some obedience / tricks for a toy or treats. If they are too far gone to do that then I remove them. I wouldn't want to risk negatives with agility which needs to be fun, fun, fun.

Just my personal way of doing things though.


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## wildo

JayneA said:


> All my dogs run (agility) in flat collars for safety. I don't use prongs anyway (different story) but there is no WAY that I would risk a prong / choke / half check etc getting caught on equipment.
> 
> Just my personal way of doing things though.


I respect your personal opinion, but have to respectfully disagree with your first sentence. ANY collar used in agility is simply unsafe. Dogs should run without a collar. I'll add one more "flat collar caught on a jump cup" story to what MRL posted. A bearded collie of all things (you'd think all that hair would hide the flat collar) yet he still got caught on a jump cup. He dragged that bar jump all over the field smacking it into things and freaking out. The owner had no recall to speak of (plus, in fairness, the dog was FREAKED OUT!) but it took nearly two mins of chasing to get the dog unhooked from the bar jump.

No collar is the only "safe" collar for agility.


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## Elaine

Mikelia said:


> That is what I was asking, sorry to be unclear. We also run with no collar on, and I use a slip lead up high behind the ears for the most part when we are at trials. Everything agility related is completely positive and there is never a leash on them when we are running.
> 
> To clarify - our training class is in a small building. We are sitting along the side waiting our turn and 'butthead' gets excited about the overly hyper dog running through the tunnel, over the dog walk and jumping on his owner - 6 feet away from us. He barks at the dog. It is just an excitement thing, he is a wonderfully social dog and is fine at trials. But in class he barks at the excited dogs. No hackles, no constant barking, but barking nonetheless. He does NOT act like this anywhere else, and he wears a flat collar most of the time when he is out and about.
> What I am concerned about is that it is an excited frustration behaviour that I see slowly developing, and holding him back with a halti is just building the frustration. I can easily get him to watch me and focus, but I do not believe that is teaching him to ignore the excited dog. We are making progress in shutting his mouth when he barks, telling him quiet and giving him treats after watching the dog run for a few seconds. He is a stable dog and I do not feel we need training advice, I was just wondering what other people who use pinch collars do at class or trial.
> 
> added - in his defense his little gsd brain is saying 'control that dog!'. He is a gsd, they want to control things, however he is not to control other peoples dogs - even if their owners are not lol. He is fine with these dogs before class, while they are waiting and after class. If let off lead to run to them while they are running their course he would just visit. He is not aggressive, just needs a good correction to stop the behaviour - which I am not able to do with a halti.


 
First of all, stop calling your dog a butthead: he isn't. This is a training issue and not his problem. He has been allowed to develop this problem so look at the other end of the leash for the problem.

This purely positive only concept in agility is another myth. There should never be a time when your dog knows he can get away with bad behavior. If he needs a correction, whether it's with a collar or just a verbal correction, then do it! If he's naked at the time, mark the behavior, put a leash and collar on him, and then correct him. Repeat what he was doing and then praise him for the good behavior.

The dogs that are allow to get away with bad behavior, just continue doing it and frequently the bad behavior gets worse. It's much better to put a stop to it right away so it never develops to a problem. How can you expect your dog to run safely and reliably if you have a behavior problem going on?

If your dog is being obnoxious and becoming overly excited on the sidelines, then your best bet is to crate him in a covered crate so he can't see what's going on and he's not only quiet, but rested for his next run.


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## KristiM

Lol you should hear some if the things I call my dog (all in good fun of course!) I have found that the purely positive thing in agility is for the most part a myth. My breeder told me I would never be able to do agility with havoc because no corrections of any kind are allowed. I have found this to be untrue, I do correct havoc in trials/at training for getting over stimulated by small dogs, which is unacceptable behavior and it is corrected. I have found people genrally really appreciate the fact that I keep control over him and don't allow him to fixate/get overly excited about small dogs. There are a lot of people that allow retarded behavior from their dogs because they are afraid to correct and the majority Of other people competing seems to find it ridiculous. 

Also want to add that havoc's flat collar once got stuck on a jump cup too. He tried to continue on into the tunnel that he was supposed to take With the jump attached to him (because he's a butt head lol.) It wasn't pretty.


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## FlyAway

Where I train agility, pinch collars are allowed, however, what I've seen is counter productive. The pinch collars are because the owners are not strong enough to handle their dog. Then they try to do the agility training and end up constantly correcting their dogs, mostly on accident. 

I could see using the collar until you go onto the floor for the training, but during training take it off.

I'm one of the few people that actually forces my dog onto equipment. Otherwise, he will avoid it for the rest of his life. Then when he's on it a while, he sees it's not so bad.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> To clarify - our training class is in a small building. We are sitting along the side waiting our turn and 'butthead' gets excited about the overly hyper dog running through the tunnel, over the dog walk and jumping on his owner - 6 feet away from us. He barks at the dog. It is just an excitement thing, he is a wonderfully social dog and is fine at trials. But in class he barks at the excited dogs. No hackles, no constant barking, but barking nonetheless. He does NOT act like this anywhere else, and he wears a flat collar most of the time when he is out and about.


You need to be careful managing this behavior with corrections. Because the GOOD news is you've clearly done a fantastic job getting your pup to love agility, get excited with the sport, and ready to take their turn. We need to keep that.

So even though it's on the sidelines and seems NOT agility related... dealing with the barking is an issue that we need to be VERY careful with how it's managed.

Frankly, I manage rather than really correct it. What's worked best for my girls (yes, it's a pain in the behind but works best) is I take my fabric crates to class and that's where my dogs are between runs. It's actually great in many ways (and like a dog show!) because it's a calm den type place that my dog can be in and I can focus on watching/learning while the other dogs run. Same for when I go off to walk the course.

I often take a blanket or other covering to put over the crate so my dogs can't see the other dogs running or me. Seems for my dogs that the visual is what gets my girls into the annoying barking stage so just blinding them to all the activity makes a huge difference.


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## KristiM

That's a great idea MRL! Thanks for sharing, I generally don't take classes but if I do with havoc I might have to steal that


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## Bear L

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I often take a blanket or other covering to put over the crate so my dogs can't see the other dogs running or me. Seems for my dogs that the visual is what gets my girls into the annoying barking stage so just blinding them to all the activity makes a huge difference.


That's the method we're taught in our class if our dogs are disturbed by other dogs. Thankfully, no one ever had to cover their crates in class.


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## AgileGSD

MRL had some great suggestions.

I would also suggest the Control Unleashed book: Welcome to Dogwise.com

This book is full of training and "games" to help your dog have great impulse control in stimulating environments without the use of correction. The LAT Game is especially helpful for dogs like your's.

I think you'd also benefit from Crate Games: Welcome to Dogwise.com


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## LuvourGSDs

Woo, glad this was asked as I was just going to ask myself. I too find the focus to be more difficult in a more exciting setting. We have great one on one focus in obed class, but since I started taking classes recently with my 19 month old pup, this has been more difficult & all I have on her is a leather choke. I would like to be able to give a small correction IF need be while on the sidelines. She also has decided to focus more on the running dogs & hard to break that focus. 8(

She also has this thing lately, where I would rather have a prong for control, where she wants to pull over at other dogs. No hackles up, no sounds, just b lines on lead to go see & I do not want her doing! Hard to give a good correction for this. 
She has been in a obed class with other dogs & playtime, but out of that setting as I normally do not allow her to just go see every dog while on lead & if I do, she darts to them & this has been a hard one for me. She scares people & some dogs doing this & I sure want to stop this habit.

I am to start up another class with her in a few weeks & was thinking of a prong for sidelines? I have stayed positive with her & have worried about neg things with agility, but also want control in class, esp with this breed as they get a bad name & more important we have them mind us.

My older female if I take to a class setting, I have tried the crate & cover with her & she still is excited vocal while in her crate. 8( I do NOT want this to progress into that with my younger girl.

So, not to highjack this thread, but seeking advice myself. 8)

Thanks much!


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## Elaine

If you need to put a prong on your dog on the sidelines, do it. There's a large number of people that put prongs on their dogs at agility trials for ease of handling outside of the ring, so don't worry about using one in training. They do use the hidden prong collars though so they don't get caught.


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## LuvourGSDs

Elaine said:


> If you need to put a prong on your dog on the sidelines, do it. There's a large number of people that put prongs on their dogs at agility trials for ease of handling outside of the ring, so don't worry about using one in training. They do use the hidden prong collars though so they don't get caught.


Ok, I do want that source of control to a degree, but did fear using around agility. Also hated the thought of removing each time it's our turn. I have used a halti when a pup, good for pulling but not correction & yep, got in trouble at a show for using that & thought so crazy as more dogs need control at shows sometime. 8/


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## Liesje

I use pinch collars on my dogs but not for agility. Often Nikon knows when we're going to do agility when we pull into the lot and by the time I'm unloading him he's howling. I might throw his pinch on and do 30 seconds of strictly enforced obedience in the parking lot to get the point across that agility is *not* a free-for-all. Believe me this is not a drive-killer for my dog, but your mileage may vary. Once we are inside the ring area or building, no more prong. While waiting our turn I have him do simple obedience and silly tricks to help distract him and get him more loaded in drive (not 10 minutes of heeling, but fun stuff that loads drive, not squashes it). A lot of times I've noticed that *we* are distraction for other people but I can't help it that I have good control of my dog and we are having fun. If I need to for safety (we usually train at a very small place where there is not much space) I will put him in a down-stay which I will enforce with corrections if necessary, just not using a prong. In training he usually has a safety flat collar on and in trials he is naked and I use a martingale collar/leash combo or slip leash.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I know for me I'd try to manage this a bit more rather than correct. If it's just a little problem and a few pops with the prong would help it forever, that would be one thing. Or just walking in and out of class would be fine too.

But for the crazy high drive thing I'd rather focus and manage it differently (and I love the prong collar, just not so much in conjunction with agility). 

AgileGSD made a great recommendation for the DVD 'Crate Games' and I'd agree with that 100%. It's about teaching the dog to learn to (and want to) control itself even in and exciting situation. So they learn self control rather than get corrected and forced into merely stopping a behavior.

Truthfully, the classes I attend that either have crates or encourage us to take our own crates in run MUCH better. It's not only a good start to trialing (how many times do I hear 'my dog is a nut when crated at a trial' from people who NEVER crated anywhere except in their quiet house) but so much easier for me and everyone else.

I do not have to stay with my dog or pay attention to my dog when they are crated. So guess what? 

This allows me to LISTEN better to the instructor and LEARN more from other dogs/handlers when they have their turn. Walking a course is so much easier when I don't have to worry about my dog or the other dogs in the class. 

I've attended classes when there are tie outs along the walls, or just we hand onto our leashed dogs, and the classes that are run with crated dogs are the ones where the handlers (and I'm thinking also the dogs  ) learn the most.

aw:


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## JakodaCD OA

I have never used pinch collars when it came to agility , either on the sidelines or otherwise. I have used them for obed training and wean off them .

My dogs never seem to be bothered by other dogs running, they mind their own business and if I felt they were being distracted/amped up, I usually had enough room where I could go off to the side and work on some quick obedience routines/stretching/whatever.

Sure you can try and get away using a pinch around agility trials, but if your caught, you can be banned from the grounds worse case scenerio banned from trialing. 

CPE trials you can use the pinch collars on the grounds IF the club allows it. 

My dogs always ran naked, have seen to many collar accidents that aren't pretty


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## LuvourGSDs

Ok, thanks! More tugging & obed stuff I guess we need to do as too hard it seems trying to sit or lay still & watch. 8/ Tight quarters also. 8/ 

I do not like her pulling towards a dog either, that is rude & want her knocking that off, but a hard one with no means to correct. 8/ We shall continue to work on this as she is a gem in obed class on the same leather choke. I guess just a diff setting. She is good at shows also.


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## wildo

LuvourGSD- you might also consider a warmup routine if you don't already have one. I'm finding that as much as 15 mins of warmup is recommended. Things like stretching, and bending. Backups, leg weaving, etc. This can all give the dog something to do while also having the benefit of getting them warmed up and ready for action.


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## LuvourGSDs

Willy, limited space. 8( We have just a small room of area to tug. 8/ I do need to engage that puppy brain as it seems watching the prey drive does waaaay up!!!!


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## Elaine

JakodaCD OA said:


> I have never used pinch collars when it came to agility , either on the sidelines or otherwise. I have used them for obed training and wean off them .
> 
> My dogs never seem to be bothered by other dogs running, they mind their own business and if I felt they were being distracted/amped up, I usually had enough room where I could go off to the side and work on some quick obedience routines/stretching/whatever.
> 
> Sure you can try and get away using a pinch around agility trials, but if your caught, you can be banned from the grounds worse case scenerio banned from trialing.
> 
> CPE trials you can use the pinch collars on the grounds IF the club allows it.
> 
> My dogs always ran naked, have seen to many collar accidents that aren't pretty


I do let my dogs have a certain level of pulling and bouncing around at agility, but that doesn't mean I let them misbehave or get away with not listening to me. I don't need a prong, but that doesn't mean I don't correct them when needed. If I needed to use one, I would put one on and use it. No big deal.

I do run my dogs naked, but I have a lot of control. I don't see anything wrong with running with a flat collar on, if needed, and a lot of people do. It makes it a lot easier to grab your dog at the end of the run or for any other reason. I know there's the possiblity of catching the flat collar, but wearing it can also be for safety reasons too. 

I agree that no dog should be run on a prong, but see no problem with putting it on for serious correction if needed. I would hope that people would have enough control over their dogs by the time they start agility so they wouldn't need to do this. I have no problem with using it on the sidelines though. If your dog needs a correction, there's no reason not to do it. If the problem is just excitement craziness, then managing with a covered crate is the better way to go.

There's puppies, unentered dogs, and prong collars all over the place at agility trials. Who cares so long as they aren't causing a problem? We all keep an eye out for any AKC rep that might be there and stay away from them. Even they don't really care so long as you don't stand out.


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## Mikelia

Thank you all, there is some really good advice here  As I said we have no problems at trials - he is a well behaved gentleman and everyone admires him. It is just in class, and only with certain dogs, and only when those certain dogs are running. The class room is small and there are three crates but he will only fit into one of them. I run him and my smaller border collie cross in class and they do their downstay while I walk the course and then rotate in the big soft crate while I run each dog. Even in the crate (it is situated so he cannot see the dogs running the course) he still does his little bark thing when he hears the dog that is running scrambling on the floor or barking. 
Our agility trial rules state no prong collars on trial premises, no collars at all while running a course. The dogs always run naked. I have no issues with either dog at all while running a course - they love agility and are completely devoted to playing the game with me. But in class when that hyper little sheltie (or the stupid golden) gets running and barking he gets his ears right up, cocks his head to the side, wags his tail and goes 'BARK!' lol. 
But the last thing I want to do is kill his drive for it. I will try crating him more, and look into the links/books posted earlier.
Thanks!
Oh, and for the record, he is a butthead. Also an EDITED, a brat, a fool and a goofy idiot lol. All in good fun of course, he doesn't know the words are supposed to mean bad. And when he is walking so close behind me through the house that he steps on the back of my flip flop and breaks it and I call him such an EDITED, he has a smile a mile wide


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