# Dog on Dog Aggression



## moonie2 (Aug 1, 2011)

I have a 4 ½ year old neutered male German shepherd named Kodiak. We live on 5 acres in the country. Kodiak is in approximately 1 acre which is fenced with a woven fence which is approximately 3’ tall with 2 strands of barbed wire above that making the top of the fence just under 4’. We also have an electric wire that runs along the bottom of the fence on the inside approximately 6-8” off the ground. Our house and barn are also in this fenced in area. In January our 15 year old female dog passed away (the dog Kodiak was raised with). In February my two sons where down back outside of the fenced area sledding in the snow, our neighbors dog (13 yr. old female Pit-bull who is very sweet) was down back with the boys. Somehow, we believe Kodiak was able to get the gate open and he got out and attacked the pit-bull. We were able to get them apart and both suffered very minor injuries. A few days later our neighbor (pit-bull owner) called to tell me my dog was over their house. She heard the pit-bull barking and went out and Kodiak was on the ground while her dog was on the porch (only 2’ high and no railing). She waved a broom at Kodiak and then her son came out grabbed Kodiak and no dog fight occurred. Once again Kodiak had gotten the gate opened. We put extra latches and chains on the gates for added security. Two weeks ago we got a new 6 week old German shepherd female puppy that Kodiak is great with. Just last week the original owners of the Pit-bull came to visit her at our neighbors house which is right across the street from us. Kodiak was already a bit excited from local dogs running free and coming up to our fence. We were all in the neighbor’s yard talking and her children where petting the pit-bull when I heard my puppy whining. I went and got her and brought her over to show her to these people. I only had her over there a few minutes when I heard my husband yell and then Kodiak was attacking the pit-bull. From what we can figure out Kodiak jumped the gate to get out. Neither dog was hurt but both my husband and I got our fingers bit trying to get the dogs apart. My son was holding and pulling Kodiak by the back legs while my husband and I tried to get his mouth off the Pitt-bulls face. We have made our gate taller and are working on adding another strand of barbed wire to the fence. When we leave Kodiak gets tied up. We are also going to be using a shock collar for when stray dogs are running down the road and Kodiak gets barking and running the fence to try and change his behavior. Kodiak has never bitten a human and is in fact extremely friendly to people. Unfortunately he hates any dog not ours. I play with him regularly through out the day and take him walking almost every day with a backpack in the woods and fields in our area. We are walking through brush, climbing hills and get a very good workout. I don’t take him to dog parks as they are very far away. Of all the dogs on our road half are behind fences and the other half are allowed to roam free. No one out here walks their dogs besides me. I really need any advice you can offer as I don’t want anything happening to Kodiak or other dogs in the neighbor because Kodiak is dog aggressive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can't tell if this started after your other dog died or before. Kodiak is obviously dog aggressive. You need to get a trainer. Dog aggression does not translate to human aggression or vice versa so I would not be concerned with people. But he is going to continue to escalate AND your 6 wk old puppy is going to learn from him. 

Been there, done all this. It totally sucks. Get a trainer.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, get with a trainer and I would hold off on using an e.collar (shock collar) until you find a trainer to work with. Improper use of the ecollar could make the problem even worse.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Our GSD Jake was male dog aggressive (he past away May 2014). We had him for 11 years.
His aggression was never resolved. I worked with a trainer and was taught to manage him. When away from our property, he was always on-leash or on a long line. He wore a floating long-line when swimming. 
Sounds like you have a great piece of property, but the dog is finding ways to get out and cause trouble...
It's never a good idea to tie a dog up outside, it causes and increases aggressiveness.
A better idea is to get a large pen (We got ours at Lowes 6'x10') He will feel safer in an enclosed area. After you walk him, put him in the pen. He is safe, other dogs are safe and you can go about your day with no worries AND stay friends with your neighbors : )
One more thing. My vet told me "Fight/ Bite.
Which means, Watch your dog very carefully after he's had a dog fight because dogs can remain in a hyper state for days after the fight which makes them more likely to lash out again.
You're doing the right thing, taking him on hikes etc. He probably loves spending that time with you and that's important, But don't trust him off leash. 
A trainer who specializes in aggression or a behaviorist can help you.
Good luck and take care.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sigh well the others have done the easy part so yet again I get to be Mr Bad news Bear!









Your neighbors are very tolerant and foolish! They never should have taken their dog with them to your house and put there dog in harms way! 

So the second attack was on them! My policy, and there are many like me! My obnoxious neighbor get one free ride, if there dog comes over my fence and no fights involved, I will return there dog... or foster it and find it a good home,if they are "done" and it's a nice dog in a bad situation...that happened! 

But if a neighbors dog comes over the fence and attacks my dogs!!! I would get them if my dog and off to the pound that dog goes...I found him on the side of the road(is what I would say)...problem solved! Some folks would just put that dog down ...end of story!

No you can't just slap an E collar on a dog and solve your problem, they take skill and training in order to use properly!

How To...

Not as much information here but it does stress why you need to understand what your doing with an E collar!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb9PZ5SJrE

I would not be bringing a puppy into a home with a dog that behaved like this! In the Q and A section on Leerburgh he tells of a story of a Beagle Pup that dug his way into the kennel of a GSD that acted much like your dog. That dog snapped the head off the puppy!

It would be much better to "train your dog to ignore" other dogs! It looks like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1IDp7MigDQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e_1uCQUYvE

If your neighbors are willing and assuming the Pit has "now" not developed his own sit of "issues", taking them walks together with your dog muzzled and both dogs on leashes would be helpful 
A Great Small And Lightweight Nylon Mesh Muzzle

And then this clip describes what a muzzle does for a dog!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1IDp7MigDQ
!
Lots of us have access to open property if we don't have large lots. It turns out that can be a disadvantage! We can under estimate the value of "walking a dog" it's not about exercise it teaches discipline and leadership!

Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

This is how, I taught my dog to ignore people and other dogs!

So for your dog to change , he does need to be able to walk on a loose leash and you might have to take a road trip to find dogs behind fences! 

No Dog Parks!!!

But there are a couple of things you can do now:
"Sit on the Dog":

The essay:
Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down
And it looks like this: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2WgOZUebnY

Most folks underestimate the value of this! It doesn't matter what you think of it, it has value to your dog! 

Finally the Place Command:
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

If you go to a Pro level trainer many of them do these things with their clients dogs! 

I don't disagree with anyone here just adding my 2 cents


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Sorry Chip ... the neighbour's fault???? And sorry OP ... I'm NOT trying to slam you ... 

OP wrote: Just last week the original owners of the Pit-bull came to visit her at our *neighbors house which is right across the street from us*. Kodiak was already a bit excited from local dogs running free and coming up to our fence. We were all in the neighbor’s yard talking and her children where petting the pit-bull when I heard my puppy whining. I went and got her and brought her over to show her to these people. I only had her over there a few minutes when I heard my husband yell and then Kodiak was attacking the pit-bull. *From what we can figure out Kodiak jumped the gate to get out*.

Also Chip - the dog is not tied up, it's fenced in.

OP ... yes, the onus is on you - BUT, I'm not posting to slam you for it ... I'm sure you feel bad enough as it is (I know I would).

Other people have told you ... get a trainer / behaviourist ... you really have to - or give your puppy back to the breeder NOW ... your adult dog will teach your new puppy to be EXACTLY like him ... when that happens YOU ARE TOAST!!!!

In the meantime, is there any way you can put some kind of fencing on top of the fence that points inwards towards the yard? (Do you know what I mean??) It would stop Kaiser from being able to jump over the fence.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I can't tell if this started after your other dog died or before. Kodiak is obviously dog aggressive. You need to get a trainer. Dog aggression does not translate to human aggression or vice versa so I would not be concerned with people. But he is going to continue to escalate AND your 6 wk old puppy is going to learn from him.
> 
> Been there, done all this. It totally sucks. Get a trainer.


This ^^!!! Don't take to heart the insane ranting of others.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Been there, done that, *never* want to be there again! I agree, trainer immediately will help, also consider a smaller fenced in area inside your yard, say 6' tall, sturdy..Eliminate him running the fence line and getting all hyped up! Honestly, last thing you want is your pup turning aggressive.. Good luck.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

OP. Hey, if you're still with us... Listen to Lilie re Don't take it to heart, BUT on the flip side of that I don't agree that it's insane ranting. It's more like a tuff love kinda thing.
These people want to help. They want your dog and you to succeed.
I've read most of the links Chip18 put out for you. It would take you hours of sorting through crap on-line to get to the good/reliable stuff in that post.
Also. Our dog pen that I told you about was approx 10' long and 6' wide and 8' high.
My aggressive dog Jake lived to do a couple of pretty amazing things but getting out of his roofless pen wasn't one of them ( :
I don't know that your new pup will learn aggression from your adult dog but in makes sense that he could.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kyleigh said:


> Sorry Chip ... the neighbour's fault???? And sorry OP ... I'm NOT trying to slam you ...


OP wrote: Just last week the original owners of the Pit-bull came to visit her at our *neighbors house which is right across the street from us*. Kodiak was already a bit excited from local dogs running free and coming up to our fence. We were all in the neighbor’s yard talking and her children where petting the pit-bull when I heard my puppy whining. I went and got her and brought her over to show her to these people. I only had her over there a few minutes when I heard my husband yell and then Kodiak was attacking the pit-bull. *From what we can figure out Kodiak jumped the gate to get out*.

No problem here and you are right I stand corrected! It was a giant "paragraph free block of text"...so yeah!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Findlay said:


> I've read most of the links Chip18 put out for you. It would take you hours of sorting through crap on-line to get to the good/reliable stuff in that post.


Hey thanks! :laugh:

I try and filter out the crap for people and look for KISS post! The new millennium as it were...these days I'm also a digital pack rat as it were!


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## moonie2 (Aug 1, 2011)

I want to thank all of you for your help and suggestions. Kodiak has always been dog aggressive to non-family dogs, but never escaped our fence until after the death of our older dog. This aggression was always controlled on leash, but jumping the fence was totally unpredicted. Unfortunately I am unable to hire a trainer at this time due to financial stress due to my husbands recent heart attack and other health issues. I have not used the e-collar yet. Anytime Kodiak begins to bark at anyone, person or dog I immediately stop him. He has been more subdued since this last occurrence. The puppy is never left alone with him and I prevent any aggressive play between the two. Due to my husbands health and other issues this past year I have not been as dedicated to his obedience and agility training as I should and am starting this back up in earnest. I do not take your comments personally as I realize this is my responsibility to keep not only my dog safe, but others as well. Any suggestions you have are greatly appreciated.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Can you run hot wire on top of the fence? I have a 4' chain link with a hot wire on top of it. My dogs won't go near the fence. Barbed wire means nothing to my dogs. Doesn't stop them from going through at all.


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## moonie2 (Aug 1, 2011)

How do you put the hot wire over the gate?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

moonie2 said:


> How do you put the hot wire over the gate?


It could be done you would need contact switches and insulators, not a deal breaking but yeah it is an additional "complication."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

moonie2 said:


> I want to thank all of you for your help and suggestions. Kodiak has always been dog aggressive to non-family dogs, but never escaped our fence until after the death of our older dog. This aggression was always controlled on leash, but jumping the fence was totally unpredicted. Unfortunately I am unable to hire a trainer at this time due to financial stress due to my husbands recent heart attack and other health issues. I have not used the e-collar yet. Anytime Kodiak begins to bark at anyone, person or dog I immediately stop him. He has been more subdued since this last occurrence. The puppy is never left alone with him and I prevent any aggressive play between the two. Due to my husbands health and other issues this past year I have not been as dedicated to his obedience and agility training as I should and am starting this back up in earnest. I do not take your comments personally as I realize this is my responsibility to keep not only my dog safe, but others as well. Any suggestions you have are greatly appreciated.


This^^^^ 

The above helps us a great deal in understanding your situation and tells us that..."you are not clueless!"

The E collar is a great tool but...you have to know what your doing!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb9PZ5SJrE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk_0PW5MMbo
General

Yep it can be done but if you choose to go that route you have to educate yourself first then train your dog!

In any case I would still teach the "place command" and practice the "sit on the dog thing!"

Those cost you nothing save time and if you were to go to a competent qualified pro...they would do those in any case!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

moonie2 said:


> How do you put the hot wire over the gate?


You can go to a farm supply store and buy special handles.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

An electric fence is a good way to manage the problem. It is managing only though and probably your best bet at this point.

Since this is an ongoing problem that has been escalating from fence fighting type behavior to escapes and out right attacks you may need to save up for a trainer.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> It could be done you would need contact switches and insulators, not a deal breaking but yeah it is an additional "complication."


See gate handle above. 

What *will* be complicated is a behavior that has escalated unabated over time, without prior experience how to handle it. 

Nothing against the OP as I've run up against problems which I had not nipped in the bud and then needed a trainer to help me correct.


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## moonie2 (Aug 1, 2011)

Not clueless, but sometimes completely overwhelmed. All dogs we owned prior to Kodiak (GSD's included) were your typical backyard dog. With Kodiak, he was unable to eat DOG food and I had to learn all about RAW feeding. He has flea and environmental allergies, prone to ear infections and then at about 8 months old I realized he needed more than just being a backyard dog. He was originally purchased for my son, but soon became my mission in life. I am still learning daily. I have read until my eyes feel like bleeding and my brain is leaking out of my head from all the different opinions. I try to get a lot of my information here as I like to hear from people that have "been there, done that". I also read a lot on Leerburg and have some of his DVD's. One of my biggest challenges is finding others that have balanced dogs and would be willing to work with me on desensitizing (?) Kodiak around their dog. I will start working on your suggestions for place and sit on the dog. I also read about the LOOK command (I think it was on Leerburg). Thanks for your help.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here's my input. Don't find balanced dogs to socialize him. You need to start by desensitizing him from a distance with behavior modification and corrections when necessary. Look up LAT and BAT

The one thing I learned with Jax was she has no desire to have a strange dog in her space. This whole 'all doggies should play with other doggies' thing is in our human heads.

You start with management. If you are not outside, the dog is not. If you cross the street, the dog is contained somehow. Put up a kennel with a top on it. You can not stop anything if he is out there along doing whatever he wants.

You get a good trainer (when you can). and they are hard to find so you should get suggestions from people in your area. You put STRONG obedience on him! Stay! Leave it! Down! That is how you manage these situations.

I would never use an e-collar in this situation without the aid of a trainer. I did, but I had a trainer. Your timing has to be perfect and you have to follow it with behavior modification.

And really, even a couple sessions with a trainer is going to be worth it. You don't need to spend a fortune. You dont' need to go every week. You just need someone to point you in the right direction.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Using Control Unleashed for dog-dog aggression - Look At That

https://clickerleash.wordpress.com/...itive-approach-to-dealing-with-reactive-dogs/

Official Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) site: humane help for aggression, frustration, and fear in dogs, horses, and other animals.

BAT DVD rentals

Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

I have a FA dog that is DA and HA. Of all the above methods I have used with him, BAT gave me the best results. Once I began seeing good results with BAT, I was able to go back and use LAT and/or counter conditioning and gained better results. For Woolf this is not a 'cure', but it did make a difference in his ability to ignore dogs and humans.

As soon as you are able to, locate a behaviorist. Plan on talking with many, it is difficult to find the good ones. That second set of eyes on you and your dog will be invaluable.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Twyla said:


> Using Control Unleashed for dog-dog aggression - Look At That
> 
> https://clickerleash.wordpress.com/...itive-approach-to-dealing-with-reactive-dogs/
> 
> ...


I agree that BAT has been the most successful thing I have used with my dog's reactivity. LAT and counter conditioning has helped, but ultimately walking my guy on a 30 foot lunge line with the power to walk where he wants, has been the most helpful. On days when there are lots of dogs at the park, he heads for his safe, isolated haven which is rarely visited by other people and their dogs. We can access it directly from the parking lot. He tends to hackle and bark a few times at other dogs, but the miracle is, he does it on a loose leash now. A loose leash is incredibly important in my dog's case.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, I did mention that I've found myself in situations where I needed help.

Therefore I was not calling you "clueless" but rather a fallible human like everyone else is at points in their life.

Here's the reality:

The reason you are having this ongoing problem to begin with is because you did not properly address it at the beginning. This indicates to me that you've not encountered this problem before and therefore, after what 2 or 3 full out unprovoked attacks on your neighbors poor dog, you are just now coming to the realization you _really_ need help.

I hope that you can work this out. It can be worked out more quickly, efficiently and with less stress for you and your dog and sans internet confusion *if* you could hire good trainer.

IMO managing your dog to prevent future attacks would be paramount right now.

Good luck.



moonie2 said:


> Not clueless, but sometimes completely overwhelmed. All dogs we owned prior to Kodiak (GSD's included) were your typical backyard dog. With Kodiak, he was unable to eat DOG food and I had to learn all about RAW feeding. He has flea and environmental allergies, prone to ear infections and then at about 8 months old I realized he needed more than just being a backyard dog. He was originally purchased for my son, but soon became my mission in life. I am still learning daily. *I have read until my eyes feel like bleeding and my brain is leaking out of my head from all the different opinions. *I try to get a lot of my information here as I like to hear from people that have "been there, done that". I also read a lot on Leerburg and have some of his DVD's. One of my biggest challenges is finding others that have balanced dogs and would be willing to work with me on desensitizing (?) Kodiak around their dog. I will start working on your suggestions for place and sit on the dog. I also read about the LOOK command (I think it was on Leerburg). Thanks for your help.


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## Cobe914 (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't have anything to add on top of everyone else, aside from suggesting keeping your pup *separated* from Kodiak more often then not. You don't want him picking up on that energy or behaviour.. he's at a prime socialization period and extremely sensitive to influences around him (especially canine) and it'd be very detrimental if he learned that new dogs = go all beserker. 
Also, watch their interactions very carefully... I've had and seen dog aggressive dogs get along very well with a new puppy, until it reached a certain age and it became another target.

Good luck - and good on you for sticking it out


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

moonie2 said:


> One of my biggest challenges is finding others that have balanced dogs and would be willing to work with me on desensitizing (?) Kodiak around their dog. I will start working on your suggestions for place and sit on the dog. I also read about the LOOK command (I think it was on Leerburg). Thanks for your help.


Such people do exist! But you will defiantly need to muzzle your dog!

When I was walking my BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix (dog aggressive...yeah big surprise!) I talked to an owner that had a dog he was willing to use to help me a balanced dog!

I had already done a lot of work with him so the reality is..it would not really have been an issue! But at that time I was still unsure how he would react! I was hanging on to the past as it were!

And did not want to take the chance that his dog would be hurt! So I said "no" but thanks! 

Had I know about a fabric mesh muzzle my answer would have been different. 

But yeah Balanced dogs are "very" different those are actually dog park dogs! My Boxer Struddell was a balanced female dog and the difference in demeanor was clear to see! She was a dog that you could take to a dog park and "not" worry about her "looking" for a fight! 

I do love my Dominate Male dogs but they have to be managed! My girl was pretty much a piece of cake!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh and as others have said you do need to work on your dog first before doing any actually dog dog work! Just stating that again to be clear!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

moonie2 said:


> How do you put the hot wire over the gate?


I'm not sure of the technical terms, but we've got ours attached to a yellow insulator that hooks on another hook. When I go through the gate, I grasp the yellow insulator and just unhook it, open the gate and walk through and then hook it up again. 

My dogs are raised with the hot wired fence. So they don't test it. Normally when I'm home, I turn the fence off. Also, when I have company, I turn it on to keep folks from reaching over the fence to try and pet a barking dog. 

And just to be clear, I have horses. The hot wire keeps the dogs in and the horses out. It is the standard horse electrical fence, not the dog fence.


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