# Local News Story



## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I just read this local news story today. A 51 year old man was outside with his elderly GSD when two loose dogs came up and started attacking the GSD. The man threw himself on his dog with his arms wrapped around it, trying to protect it. There were bystanders, and apparently one 15 year old boy jumped in to try to help.

Another two guys pulled up in a van. They had been driving around looking for the two loose dogs that were now attacking the other one. Once they pulled the dogs off and put them in the van, they were about to just drive away when the owner of the GSD told them he was going to call the police. In response, one of the guys let one of the two dogs back out of the van and allegedly directed it to attack the GSD's owner. The man lost most of his pinky finger and suffered permanent nerve damage to two other fingers as a result of this dog attacking him. 

This all happened several months ago, and the man who instigated the attack on the other guy has been sentenced to 13 years in prison (he had another outstanding felony charge that added on to the total sentence.) His last ditch effort in court was to claim the dog opened the van door by itself, or maybe jumped out the window. Well, which is it? His own lawyer says the guy was too drunk to even really remember what happened. Numerous witnesses say he opened the door and let the dog out.

The article didn't say how the dog that got attacked fared after the incident. Poor old fellow! (Or lady.)


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

What did the bystanders witness?, the 15 year old boy? Not one person's word against another, there were witnesses....

Can you post a link to the article?


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

There were 2 articles, the info in them didn't match up 100%. One implies the dogs that attacked belonged to the man convicted, the other says he claims he was just trying to help his friend collect his dogs. Then one article says he helped pull the dogs off the GSD, while the other fails to mention that point (either way, he apparently then told one to attack the guy). 

Syracuse man gets 13 years in West Side dog attack case that left victim?s hand maimed - LocalSYR.com powered by NewsChannel 9 WSYR Syracuse


Convict: Pit bull opened van door on its own before vicious attack on Syracuse man | syracuse.com


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh, that's why the confusion.

I guess it's socially unacceptable to say I hate Pit Bulls. The old saying "it's not the dog, it's the owner" cliche.

But - I don't recall any Doberman's or GSD's in the past decades (when they were considered the "bad dogs') being used by a rotten element of society as a weapon as the Pit has and as for many decades.

It seems this breed is fitting right in with the dregs of society.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to dogs, since this puppy is my first, but I have to say I do think it has more to do with the owner than the breed. There are the sort of people who get the dog with the vicious reputation because they think it makes them look tough, or gives them more cred. But then of course they don't train it properly and only reinforce the threatening persona, resulting in problems like this. I think one of those articles mentions that his defense lawyer said the dog wasn't even trained to sit on command let alone attack on command. Either way, the end result was the same.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Oh, that's why the confusion.
> 
> I guess it's socially unacceptable to say I hate Pit Bulls. The old saying "it's not the dog, it's the owner" cliche.
> 
> ...


As a pit bull owner, I hate what is happening to these dogs. I hate seeing them with people who only have them because they think it makes them look tough. But I have to say that this kind of thinking does nothing to help the situation, or the truly good dogs that happen to be a bully breed. Not all pit bulls are bad. Not all pit bull owners are "the dregs of society". It's a shame that this happened, but lumping all pit bulls /pit bull owners into the same category is just plain wrong.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> As a pit bull owner, I hate what is happening to these dogs. I hate seeing them with people who only have them because they think it makes them look tough. But I have to say that this kind of thinking does nothing to help the situation, or the truly good dogs that happen to be a bully breed. Not all pit bulls are bad. Not all pit bull owners are "the dregs of society". It's a shame that this happened, but lumping all pit bulls /pit bull owners into the same category is just plain wrong.


I'm sorry. I just can't help it. I have EXTREME prejudice toward the breed. 4 years ago, I was attacked by 2 pits while walking home from the grocery store. 10 years ago, my brother was attacked by 2 pits on our front porch. 12 years ago, I went thru 5 police involved calls because a neighbors pit was breaking thru windows in the owners house go try to get in my yard to attack my GSD puppy.

Am I just ignorant? I think not. Back in the late 70's to the early 90's, I owned a 1/2 GSD 1/2 AST. She 48lbs, killed 2 dogs twice her size over a 3 year period. She was one of the best dogs I ever had - but she had this flaw..... and I hated it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

13 years is not long enough. That was attempted homicide. What a jerk. People are yucky. 

I would still save the life of even someone like this over a dog if it came to it, but I don't have to like people. Do I?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I wouldn't. I would take the life of a loser to save a dog. That's how twisted I am.....


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

I used to feel that Pits were unfairly maligned, that the bad incidents were all bad owners, no training. But I have to admit I'm not so sure anymore. Unlike GSDs and most other breeds, Pits give no warning before they go into attack and once it starts they just. don't. stop. Unfortunately I've seen it first hand on 3 different occasions and its really bad. Even with all the well behaved Pitties I've met, I can't help but be on guard. 

I honestly can't say that I still feel the way I used to about them. I don't believe I can trust them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

viking said:


> I used to feel that Pits were unfairly maligned, that the bad incidents were all bad owners, no training. But I have to admit I'm not so sure anymore. Unlike GSDs and most other breeds, Pits give no warning before they go into attack and once it starts they just. don't. stop. Unfortunately I've seen it first hand on 3 different occasions and its really bad. Even with all the well behaved Pitties I've met, I can't help but be on guard.
> 
> I honestly can't say that I still feel the way I used to about them. I don't believe I can trust them.


Me too. I just don't trust any of them anymore. The Pits that attacked me were not ghetto dogs, just somebody's beautifully bred matched pair that got out and on the run one morning. My brother's situation - don't know, they weren't from the neighborhood - we got him in the door off the porch and they tore the screen door up trying to get to him after the door was closed.

The one that wanted to get my puppy - well, the owner's explained to the police that he was harmless - he was 130lbs, the owners were 18 + 19 years old playing house (1st time dog owners too) and they said he wouldn't hurt anyone - he lived in the rental house with a little bunny that ran loose. He didn't hurt the bunny but he broke thru a window 3 times to get at my puppy. 

He was not people aggressive, just dog aggressive. Twice I put my puppy in the house and went and secured the Pit to my chain link fence until the police showed up. He was not aggressive to me at all, but that's usually normal with pits unless they are trained to people.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Those sound like harrowing experiences. Its hard to put aside the first hand stuff. I don't want to be prejudiced about the breed butI can't help that my own experiences have informed me, too.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I've had several bad experiences with pitties also.My niece has six of them!!One of them is really mellow,loves people,good with cats and other dogs..The others are dangerously animal aggressive.
My understanding is that their sense of self preservation was bred out of them in order for them to grip and hold dangerous prey for a hunter.
My other niece acquired a pit puppy who was the sweetest,friendliest little girl.Until I brought Samson over to visit.She went ballistic to put it mildly.She had to be crated for the duration of our visit.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I was not a fan of the breed. Have seen more than a few that appeared very aggressive, chased by one into a playground where I found refuge teetering on top of the plastic tube slide all while the young owner howled with laughter. That dog was foaming at the mouth trying to get at me. It left me a bad taste and trepidation about the breed itself.
I have since softened my attitude as my sister has 2 pit bull rescues, the rescue calls them a mix to avoid the "seek out and destroy" legislation in Ontario. They are over the top friendly and beautifully natured dogs.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I think MOST of the time, when a pit attacks, it's improper training/management on the owner's behalf. But, it has to be said that people breeding them are doing some pretty stupid things... trying to make them huge 130 lb. beasts, trying to breed two human aggressive dogs to make better "guard dogs", finding the most animal aggressive, prey driven dogs and breeding them together. Or course there are going to be more screwed up dogs when this is what is being bred for.

My pittie is 65 lbs of love. Does this mean I just let her run rampant with strangers and children? Of course not! That would be poor management. Even though I trust her, I still watch her very carefully. But I do that with all dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are puppies in my advanced obedience class. Moofie is 13 months old. Dover is a little like a pitt-type dog, and Moofie's age. Dozer is a pitt, seven months old. And there is a seven month old Lab. 

Guess which one tried to eat Moofie on Thursday. Yep, the lab puppy. Wild, huh? 

I used to think it was the breed. Then I thought it was the owners. Now I just don't know. Maybe the breed is just too screwed up from bad breeding and breeding specifically for what the breed is not supposed to be, human aggression. Maybe, there are just too many people in the country who don't have the first idea how to raise a dog. 

That the breed does do a lot of damage when they do have problems is indefensible.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My passive, dog friendly dog was attacked at least a dozen times by Pit Bulls in his lifetime with the first attack in 2003 when he was three months old. I have been attacked three times by Pit Bulls. My ex was mauled by one. 

My neighbor was horrifically mauled by her own Pit Bull last summer, I never saw so much blood on a dog or person in my life. She had to euthanize that Pit Bull, got another one that has attacked three people already. She recently was seen walking around with her hand bandaged and told neighbors that she got injured when walking her new Pit Bull when another Pit Bull attacked hers. The other neighbor who moved in last summer was there for only about a week before her Pit jumped the fence and bit her landlord. 

I now own four cats that were either mauled, dismembered, degloved or used for bait that I shoveled off the streets and pieced back together. Other neighbors have had their little dogs killed by Pit Bulls, and so many cats, and welcome wildlife.

I took one of my puppies for her FIRST walk in the neighborhood. I live on a corner lot and got about 30 feet from my gate to the corner. A Pit Bull was about half a block away around that corner, spotter her and was on her before I could blink.

I live in a very small town, about the size of a postage stamp. There have been numerous attacks on people and pets. They are way too many to list, here are just but a few.

Dog Attacks Young Girl In Braddock | www.wpxi.com

Woman injured, her dog mauled to death by pit bull in North... | www.wpxi.com

15 minute drive from where I live:
Girl, 2, mauled to death by dog in West Mifflin | Local News - WTAE Home

Half hour away from me:
Pit Bull Attack Leaves 5-Year-Old Pittsburgh Boy 'Soaked in Blood'

This one occurred right around the corner from me. But if you watch any, watch this one. ""My daughter and a couple other people told me they had to go in the house and boil the hot water to get the dog off my daughter," Snell said.

"She was basically screaming, saying, 'Get the dog off of me.'" 

Braddock mayor doesn't want dog that bit girl back in community | Allegheny Co. News - WTAE Home

Can anybody even begin to imagine this Pit Bull mauling a child, latched onto her leg, ripping the muscle off at the bone, as she screamed in pain and terror, while waiting for people to boil water to get the Pit Bull to release her?

Sorry Pit lovers, but Pit Bulls are not pets.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Not my dog, but if you like the way your German Shepherd looks, you might want to declare your immediate area a no Pit Bull zone.

Neighbor's pit bull attacked my dog!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Bully breeds are animal aggressive. 9 times out of 10. That doesn't make them BAD. A jack Russell terrier will try to kill anything it can get a hold of as well. When people can finally accept that and handle them better, then things will change.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I will also say a 75, 90, 100+ lb dog is NOT a pit bull. That is an American bully mutt. When we can stop labeling everything with short fur and a block head a pit bull, that may change some things as well. Imagine if every dog with a double coat and black muzzle was labeled as a german shepherd, not even a mix, just "german shepherd".

Pit bulls are small and athletic - 30-40lbs, lean, well muscled. Not oversized.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not my dog, but if you like the way your German Shepherd looks, you might want to declare your immediate area a no Pit Bull zone.
> 
> Neighbor's pit bull attacked my dog!


Of course you will not see that many on this site, because this site is comprised of GSD lovers, but GSDs attack and sometimes kill other people's dogs too. So, do you want someone to declare your neighborhood a no GSD zone?

This story is 5 years old. I think we can find some pretty good stories about GSD attacks going back five years too. 

BSL is something that gets bandied about here and there, and it sounds great so long as the specified breed is not one that you care about. You do have to be careful what you wish for though.

For some attacks on people, the courts should order some dogs put down. For attacks on a dog, people should be fined, people can be sued, but I don't think the court should order an animal euthanized for other than human aggression.


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

viking said:


> I used to feel that Pits were unfairly maligned, that the bad incidents were all bad owners, no training. But I have to admit I'm not so sure anymore. Unlike GSDs and most other breeds, Pits give no warning before they go into attack and once it starts they just. don't. stop. Unfortunately I've seen it first hand on 3 different occasions and its really bad. Even with all the well behaved Pitties I've met, I can't help but be on guard.
> 
> I honestly can't say that I still feel the way I used to about them. I don't believe I can trust them.


Especially the just.don't.stop. part.

Prior to last summer, I was a long time defender/supporter of 
pitts. That all changed when Lillie, walking quietly on leash by my side,
was attacked by a loose intact 2 year old male. He was intent on
killing her. Paid NO attention at all to my many kicks in his side, his
throat, his nuts, wherever I could connect. I told the reporting 
officer I thought it was 6-8 times, a witness said "No mam, it was
more like ten" but this dog didn't even whimper. At one point,
he had Lillie pinned on her back on asphalt, with his jaws around
her throat. The only reason she didn't die was a contractor
working nearby raced over in his truck, pulled out a long 2X4
and clonked the pitt over the head with it. Laid him out, didn't kill him.

The owner surrendered him because, to quote the shelter staffer
I talked to "They'd had problems like this with him before" and
he was euth'd.

Now, I carry something with me with enough weight and God
forbid one charges either of us again, he's getting a broken skull.
I will never forget hearing Lillie's cries, and feeling so helpless
and upset that I couldn't protect her.

Never again.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

No where did I advocate BSL. German Shepherds may attack and kill on occasion, Pit Bulls do routinely.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a German Shepherd, or any other breed, that mauled another dog, then later killed that family's cat, then later mauled that same dog again, this time leaving it unable to overcome its injuries.

Selzer, I see you are from Ohio, how about that Klonda Richie and those two Pit Bull/ Cane Corso mixes that she used to live next door to?

And what about that child who had to endure a sustained mauling while people boiled water in order to get the Pit to release? Did you even watch the video?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No where did I advocate BSL. German Shepherds may attack and kill on occasion, Pit Bulls do routinely.
> 
> I think you would be hard pressed to find a German Shepherd, or any other breed, that mauled another dog, then later killed that family's cat, then later mauled that same dog again, this time leaving it unable to overcome its injuries.
> 
> ...


I thought that "declaring your area a no-pit bull zone" was advocating BSL. 

Computer is too slow to watch videos. I read instead.

I'm sorry, but even including pit bulls, your chances of being killed by a dog are lower than your chances of being killed by a deer or struck by lightning. I am not going to cry for laws against a specific dog breed because, just by reading these forums, it is apparent that way too many people who don't know how to raise or handle GSDs own them. And if they will ban one breed, they will ban more breeds. 

I live where a breed is banned 12 miles to the north. The shelter in the county, which is located 6 miles to the east of the city that has banned pit bulls was over-run with them. Or I should say, is over-run with them. The shelter is privately owned and run by volunteers. The city revised it's BSL to allow only pit bulls that come from a humane society/shelter to be legal within the limits. The idea is that the people at the shelter will be able to properly assess them. Its ludicrous. But it is what it is. 

It is what happens when people expect the government to step in and make changes. 

So far I have run into 7 deer with various vehicles over the years. I have yet to be bitten, nor has any of my dogs been bitten or killed by a pit bull.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

To clarify, I was declaring my personal space as a no Pit zone. Sorry for the confusion.

You can't compare Pit Bull attacks to lightening strikes which are an act of God, Pit Bull ownership is a choice. Do you have any documentation about deer killing people each year? I sincerely would love to review it. How about deer killing pets? Regardless, deer in the vicinity is not a choice. They exist in nature, this is not something man controls.

You will get no argument out of me about many people having no business owning any breed with a predisposition for aggression, but all kinds of people own all kinds of breeds, it is only one breed mauling and killing in significant numbers. I find that noteworthy.

I remember well when Ohio enacted BSL. Correct me if I am wrong, but did not that piece of legislation grandfather in existing Pit Bulls with some restrictions? I do recall right after that where the shelters were flooded with Pit Bulls because many of those that owned the breed chose to dump them in shelters rather than be responsible owners. 

Most BSL that I have seen written usually included clauses for mandatory spaying and neutering. Did Ohio's?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The problem is not the dogs it is the people who own them. 

It is pretty ignorant of anybody to blame a dog for anything when it should be the responsible of the owner. 

Tell me a gsd cannot inflict the same damage as a pitbull. 

If someone crashes a car into a crowd do you blame the car or the driver.

In czech republic the kennel club is very proactive and stands up for all breeds. If a dog causes an accident the owner is directly responsible. I like their system.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> Oh, that's why the confusion.
> 
> I guess it's socially unacceptable to say I hate Pit Bulls. The old saying "it's not the dog, it's the owner" cliche.
> 
> ...



you likely don't remember because they simply weren't in your area. But I know plenty of people who do remember it. 

As well as a LOT of people (many elderly now or since passed on) that are absolutely terrified to be in the same area as a Dobe because "at any moment his brain could swell and he'll go crazy". It was the myth of the time about Dobes and a lot of the general public believed it. And, in many areas where there aren't a lot of Dobes (because so many adults had this belief) you have their children and grandchildren who have been raised to believe it as well.

Lots and lots of GSDs are still used by the bad element. And a lot of the "bad element" are prejudiced against GSDs, believing that the dogs can sense criminals, even if they are just pets. 

And a lot of the general public that believes GSDs are fierce biting machines that could go attack dog on any hapless passerby because they've seen what police dogs do on TV.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've known plenty of pits that I wouldn't trust. I've known plenty of GSDs that I would never trust. The individual dog that I go out of the way to avoid locally is a friend's Portuguese Water Dog. He's attacked several different dogs and harbors a special hatred for Singe.

I've never seen a pit that attacked without a sign but I know a lot of them whose signals are very subtle. Especially if the ears have been cropped and the tail docked. 
As for the "don't stop" it's a terrier thing. It's what the entire class of dogs has been bred to do since the idea of using dogs vs vermin was thought of. They've been bred to take on vicious prey, sometimes almost twice their size, and fight to the death if necessary.

I went to a Barn Hunt seminar recently and it was Clueless Owners 101. How we made it through the day without a dog fight I have no clue (probably the strict enforcement of the "all dogs must be crated when not in the ring rule). Terriers in a high stress environment, scent of prey, and allowed to face off with each other at the end of the leash? Yeah, people are dumb.

Plus, with pits, you have the same problem that many areas have with GSDs. Bad breeding, bad temperament, and basically poor genetics all around.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dainerra said:


> you likely don't remember because they simply weren't in your area. But I know plenty of people who do remember it.
> 
> As well as a LOT of people (many elderly now or since passed on) that are absolutely terrified to be in the same area as a Dobe because "at any moment his brain could swell and he'll go crazy". It was the myth of the time about Dobes and a lot of the general public believed it. And, in many areas where there aren't a lot of Dobes (because so many adults had this belief) you have their children and grandchildren who have been raised to believe it as well.
> 
> ...


The "myth" about Dobermans turning on their owners was in fact a fact. A type of epilepsy, layman's term rage, was rampant in the breed. The epilepsy manifested itself by seizures in which the Dobe was incognizant of its whereabouts or owners and sometimes aggressed. Once the seizure was over, Dobes would return to their normal selves unaware of what just transpired.

Fortunately, Dobe owners and breeders did not bury their heads in the sand and say it was the owners, they knew the problem was the dogs. Breeders dilligently tackled the problem and that form of epilepsy is now a thing of the past. During this process, either out of a lack of knowledge or to salvage the Doberman's reputation, the breeders have produced the docile, pet Doberman we know today.

The Doberman was not the only breed with this version of epilepsy, it was once very prevalent in other breeds such as the Cocker Spaniel to the point of UK breeders refusing to breed with the Cockers in the states regardless of championship status. 

Other breeds such as the St Bernard were another breed where rage was once in numbers, but it can and does happen in other breeds.



MadLab said:


> The problem is not the dogs it is the people who own them.
> 
> It is pretty ignorant of anybody to blame a dog for anything when it should be the responsible of the owner.
> 
> ...


Last time I checked, it was not the owner's mauling and killing people, pets, livestock, and wildlife. It was the Pit Bull.

Same can't be said about cars. They don't act independent of their owners.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Last time I checked, it was not the owner's mauling and killing people, pets, livestock, and wildlife. It was the Pit Bull.
> 
> Same can't be said about cars. They don't act independent of their owners.


Any owner that lets a dog loose on a street is in the wrong, and should be liable, if it attacks another dog or a person. It doesn't matter what breed it is. That should be a law. Don't blame the dog, blame the owner of the dog which lets it loose.

A rottie, a Gsd, a Pitbull or a mastiff can be letal. There are cases of small dogs doing damage to children, it is not just the medium to big dogs. 

All dogs should be under control in public and accompanied by an adult for the public's safety. 

I feel sorry for you guys living in areas with loose dangerous dogs and for anyone who has been attacked or had family attack by dogs. It is terrible. I would carry a bear spray.

The problem in the states with pitbulls is enormous. Way too many pits being bred. Is it the dogs fault or the people who own them and are breeding them. I would think it is the dogs getting a raw deal.

I blame the owners big time. But I know shelters are full of pitbulls too. So what can be done. Introduce laws which penalize irresponsible owners and start culling dogs that roam and are dangerous. 

Average joe with a pit always on leash in public should be left alone. The dog bans should be lifted and legislation introduced to target dog owners who are putting people at risk by letting dangerous dogs loose what ever the breed or mix.

I wonder what is your solution?

Sounds like you live in fear of a breed of dog. 

Is it really a rational fear? 

Statically, more people die in the US from obesity, smoking, accidents, car crashes than from dog attacks. Way more in fact. 

But if i were bite by a bully I might have an irrational fear of them. Fact is I've met plenty and never had any trouble. I live in Ireland and we have very little trouble with dogs attacking people. I wonder is that due to a higher percentage of responsible owners here. Pit bulls are legal here under some legal conditions as with mastiffs, Gsd's etc.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

viking said:


> I used to feel that Pits were unfairly maligned, that the bad incidents were all bad owners, no training. But I have to admit I'm not so sure anymore. Unlike GSDs and most other breeds, Pits give no warning before they go into attack and once it starts they just. don't. stop. Unfortunately I've seen it first hand on 3 different occasions and its really bad. Even with all the well behaved Pitties I've met, I can't help but be on guard.
> 
> I honestly can't say that I still feel the way I used to about them. I don't believe I can trust them.


Exactly the same here... Experience has sort of overshadowed how I used to think about pit bulls.  however I mainly see problems with the really stocky purebred looking pits (especially intact males) vs the general shelter/rescue Pitts and mixes (which I feel totally fine about unless their body language is concerning).
I don't hate them or anything or think they're evil...But I definitely try to avoid them if I'm out with my dog. I'll cross the street, leave the area, etc. I used to go to a dog park daily during the less busy hours and I would quickly take my dog out the back exit if I saw a pitbull coming.... Then we do training outside the park... And I'd keep an eye on how things were going in there...And I was usually glad I left! All but one of the numerous fights I saw, instigated by pitbulls had some kind of warning however... It may have happened fast, but if you watched the dog in the time leading up to it, the body language was a little tense and on edge looking. 
I witnessed one attack that literally just came out of nowhere though... (And this was actually a Pitt/american bulldog mix.) A happy looking pit bull went after a lab that was just walking and sniffing the ground 10 feet away... Totally latched onto ithe labs face as the lad tried to run and escape and made a bloody mess almost ripping of its ear.  This was at a dog park and this dog was a regular who came to the park every single day and was normally completely fine except for there were multiple occasions when it randomly switched and attacked dogs out of nowhere. This person had a ton of dog park friends that would vouch for her dog, so she never got in trouble despite her dog sending others to the vet.

I'm not for BSL banning ownership Of pitbulls (or any breed) especially because SO MANY dogs are mislabeled! There are a lot of shelter dogs that probably have at least some pitbull in them, but are most likely a mix of bully breeds and come from a long line of strays/random breeding. In my experience and opinion these rescue pitt mixes are generally a whole different story. Sure there may be some aggressive individuals as with any breed, but I just don't really see the strong problematic traits in the shelter dogs/mixes, that I see in purebred pitts I used to (very carefully) go to a dog park daily because it was the best of my options for safely exercising my dog at the time.. ((So glad to be done with that now! lol!!)) But I got to meet and observe hundreds of dogs, and a huge amount of them were pit mixes. Most of which were some of the friendliest, most easy going dogs of all. I only ever met one purebred pitt that did not end up causing a problem, and this one was extremely well trained and focused on its handler who only used the park for training with distractions... Absolutely never interacted with other dogs. 

I think if people really love and want a pitbulls, they should always take into account that this breed was created and selectively bred specifically for dogfighting aggression and tenacity. Also that people have legitimate reason to fear them. If only because of the damage they can and do inflict IF they do attack. While any breed can have aggressive individuals or even tendencies as a breed traits. They don't typically cause the damage a pitbull does in the case of an attack.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Well put... 



MadLab said:


> Any owner that lets a dog loose on a street is in the wrong, and should be liable, if it attacks another dog or a person. It doesn't matter what breed it is. That should be a law. Don't blame the dog, blame the owner of the dog which lets it loose.
> 
> A rottie, a Gsd, a Pitbull or a mastiff can be letal. There are cases of small dogs doing damage to children, it is not just the medium to big dogs.
> 
> ...


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> I think if people really love and want a pitbulls, they should always take into account that this breed was created and selectively bred specifically for dogfighting aggression and tenacity.


I get your points, but gotta ask a simple question, 

What do you think the Gsd was origionally bred for in the early 1900's Germany. 

Pits were bred to fight other dogs. Now if you cross them with Mastiffs which is what was done you get a more of a spectrum reaching into a possibly human aggressive dog. 

But look at the Gsd. It is a top police and army dog for generations. I wonder why?

Note: I find some breed generalizations inaccurate. Like for someone to say a pit is a nanny bred. Or a Gsd to be a family guardian. It is if it is trained right or if it has a good temperament and is properly nurtured it will be that. If not it can go another way. If it is neglected and left to roam the streets what can it become? 

I won't beat a dead horse too much. But if a dog is not on a leash and is not trained or socialized or disciplined it is a dangerous animal. It is what it is. Whoever let it get into that state and neglected their duties to care for it properly is highly at fault and should be prosecuted if the dog injures another or a person.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Why are dogs running loose in the streets wrong? When I grew up, there were no leash laws, there were few problems. There were no Pit Bulls, at least none that weren't being kept under radar. Why punish everybody for the actions of a few? Why would I blame the owner of a loose dog for what the dog does unless the owner has trained the dog to behave in an unacceptable manner? That is like saying an owner is to blame for his Lab swimming, or his Beagle baying. You are not making sense. Could it be the breed?

Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs.
Mortality, mauling, and maiming by vicious dogs. - PubMed - NCBI

I agree that all dogs should be under control in public and SOME breeds should be accompanied by an adult for public safety, but that control does not always have to come from a leash. Most people already do control their dogs by whatever means necessary, it only seems to be a problem with a few breeds. How would you regulate that? Punish everybody?

Why should I carry bear spray? I have legal rights to walk down the street without a Pit Bull attack. Perhaps those that own the offending dogs should take exceptional actions, not those that don't. Odd that there are other breeds in the neighborhood, but none of them are getting loose and being a problem.

The surplus Pit Bull problem is partially caused by greeders breeding for a fast buck, but the problem is twofold. Shelters are full of Pit Bulls, average age 18 months. There are those spreading fallacies about the breed and many people get a new Pit Bull expecting it to get along with other family pets. All too often this is not the case and when the Pit Bull matures, the fights start, and people tend to get rid of the Pit Bull which came later. There is definitely a huge problem with Pit Bull supporters promoting horrible information about the breed. It reminds me of the threads on here, "somebody knocked on my door and my GSD growled, what do i do?" I think the ones who are getting the raw deal are those who were lied to about the Pit Bulls expected traits and did not buy into what the breed really is, but what it was presented to be. These are people with vested time, resources and love and wind up with a strong, game Terrier, not a docile, low maintenance breed.

I can't blame owners, many had good intentions. Many thought they were getting Golden Retrievers in a Pit Bull's clothing. We see that same mistake with German Sheperds all the time. There are already laws in place regulating responsible dog ownership and permitting seizure of free roaming dogs and potential euthanization, but the shelters are still full of Pit Bulls. The point is that this does not seem to be an all breed problem. I know other parts of the country do have all breed problems, but I am addressing those that have a Pit Bull problem.

Why should bans be lifted? There is not one case of BSL that was enacted that did not have a positive impact on maulings and killlings in its respective area. I am not advocating BSL, but it has proven itself highly successful in the respects it is meant to address, which incidentally, it is not, and never has been, intended to reduce dog bites. Where I live there are no bans, and there are strict dangerous dog laws. Those laws have done nothing to ameliorate the Pit Bull problem although they have proven themselves successful with other breeds. 

There is no one solution, different areas have different problems. Strengthening existing loose dog laws are a waste, who knows who owns the dogs? Those laws are nearly unenforceable. 

I don't live in fear of Pit Bulls, but I do have pure anger for those who have stripped me of my rights to walk around my neighborhood, with or without my dog, no biking, no jogging, all because of their choice of breed. 

Is my fear rational? I find that question very insulting. Surely you jest? First of all there is no fear. Did you not read my personal experiences with the breed? I think the question is do you have a grasp on humanity? What makes you think that other people's dogs take priority over the safety of a community? You can't possible make such a statement if you actually read the posts on here and watched the videos. 
Statistically speaking, nobody can force anybody to be overeat or smoke. Statiscally speaking cars are under control of people, an attacking Pit Bull is not, apples and oranges.

Oh, so you have BSL in your country. Since you say you don't have issues with Pit Bulls in Ireland, please share the restrictions placed on them by your country. Tell me, since your country has restrictions on Pit Bulls and your country has little problems with the breed, why do you think that the US should lift all BSL? Seems a bit contradictory.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

German shepherds were originally bred as working dogs, guarding and herding sheep, then of course a lot of other purposes including protection and law enforcement. They do have good natural drives that can be channeled for protection work with training. Even in law enforcement and military they are trained to take down a person vs tearing them to shreds and ALWAYS under control of the handler. Huge difference.
If a GSD is attacking people or other dogs, it's NOT because of what they were selectively bred for. 

Pit bulls were specifically bred for dog fights and selected for traits that would cause the dog be a tenacious fighter, having a high threshold for pain and inflicting massive damage, fighting to the death, etc. And yes, it was mainly for dog aggression, but IF they do decide to attack a human, they're style is the same as when attacking another dog. I think in general they are more prone to having issues with other dogs. I don't generally worry for myself if I see a pitbull, it's more my dog I am cautious for. 
If you have a pitbull and you train and care for and manage it properly, good! I have no problem with that.If you are a person who loves the breed you should respect and take into account the breed characteristics and everything that comes with it. Even the extra responsibility. 

Yes, any dog can be dangerous, but a mismanaged pitbull is most likely more dangerous than a mismanaged GSD. And you could equally say that a mismanaged GSD can be more dangerous than a mismanaged chihuahua. 

As an owner of a GSD, I take these things into account. They can have more natural tendencies to become reactive/aggressive or suspicious of strangers if not properly socialized than many other popular breeds. I put a lot of work into training and socialization and am considerate of others that may be afraid of him because of his breed. I go on off leash hikes and, I leash him when I see people coming, even though it's not required or the norm here and I know he as an individual is the friendliest creature in the world and would cause no problems. I wouldn't do they same if I had a golden retriever is a ****zu etc... I absolutely take into account people's perception of the breed whether or not stereotype's are deserved by my dog.

Everyone should be responsible dog owners of course whatever the breed. I don't have any trouble with responsible people owning whatever breed they want.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

There is a guy in my area with a huge dog aggressive pit bull. My area has no leash laws and people are usually walking their (friendly, but not typically very well trained) dogs off leash. This guy keeps his pit on leash and works on training during his walks. When another dog approaches, he walks way off the path, puts his dog in a down and asks the owners to please not let their dog come up to him. This is a responsible owner!

There is another person in my area, that has a pitbull that escapes from his yard, or even goes on Off leash walks. He doesn't always, but sometimes attacks other dogs. Has sent a couple dogs that I know of to the vet. Terrible owner. If you are going to be irresponsible with your dog... At least get a lab or something that will most likely just annoy people.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Since you say you don't have issues with Pit Bulls in Ireland, please share the restrictions placed on them by your country. Tell me, since your country has restrictions on Pit Bulls and your country has little problems with the breed, why do you think that the US should lift all BSL? Seems a bit contradictory.


Pitbulls and Gsd's have the same rules here. Also included are Bullmastiffs, Presa's, Dogo's, Rotts, Akitas, Tosa's and all mixes of these breeds.

They all need by law, a muzzle, short leash and an adult guardian when in public. 



> I agree that all dogs should be under control in public and SOME breeds should be accompanied by an adult for public safety, but that control does not always have to come from a leash. Most people already do control their dogs by whatever means necessary, it only seems to be a problem with a few breeds. How would you regulate that?


Fine people who allow there dog off leash and unattended. Roaming dogs which cause danger to people should be removed and destroyed. If less serious have a 3 strikes and the dog is put down. Usually with cases where a dog attacks, there are prior aggressiveness from the dog towards people that goes unchecked. If there is a dangerous roaming dog in your area do something about it or call the local authorities.



> Why should I carry bear spray? I have legal rights to walk down the street without a Pit Bull attack.





> I don't live in fear of Pit Bulls, but I do have pure anger for those who *have stripped me of my rights to walk around my neighborhood,* with or without my dog, no biking, no jogging, all because of their choice of breed.


Reclaim your right to travel freely by arming your self with some non letal spray which will stop a dog in it's tracks.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

I do think it should be the dogs behavior that is punished vs ownership of the breed. I do think pitbulls, when unmanaged tend to cause more problems than other breeds. It's often considered politically incorrect to say that. There are too many people overcompensating for the breed discrimination by saying that pitbulls are all nothing but flowers and sunshine. That they are the same as any other breed. When they are not. Different breeds can have different risks and dangers when improperly managed and pitbulls have some of the highest consequences. I think that needs to be acknowledged. That's what I have a problem with vs breed legislation. I think if the government is going to get involved, it should focus on dogs that have history of aggression or being allowed to roam vs certain breeds.

Even if they wanted to single out certain breeds, it should be the animals behavior not the breed. For example, if a pit bull is found roaming, or breaking a leash law, bites or attacks a person or dog once, then that individual dog is not legal to own, or that person who broke the law is no longer allowed to own a pitbull or whatever breed is singled out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> Pitbulls and Gsd's have the same rules here. Also included are Bullmastiffs, Presa's, Dogo's, Rotts, Akitas, Tosa's and all mixes of these breeds.
> 
> They all need by law, a muzzle, short leash and an adult guardian when in public.


This country doesn't really have a problem with Bullmastiffs, Presas, Dogos, Rotts, Akitas, or Tosas, and their mixes. This is why many people are pressing for BSL, they want to stop the maulings and killings before these other breeds are also targeted.



MadLab said:


> Fine people who allow there dog off leash and unattended. Roaming dogs which cause danger to people should be removed and destroyed. If less serious have a 3 strikes and the dog is put down. Usually with cases where a dog attacks, there are prior aggressiveness from the dog towards people that goes unchecked. If there is a dangerous roaming dog in your area do something about it or call the local authorities.


Why would we fine people who allow there dogs off leash and unattended? Should we fine people who are of age, have valid driver's licenses, are sober, and not involved in accidents? I don't follow what you are saying. It seems to me that advocate over regulating dog ownership because there is a Pit Bull problem in many areas. Why not address the problem? 

The problem with removing roaming dogs which cause problems is that the loose dogs causing problems where I live are Pit Bulls, and way too often their first attack is extreme and severe, causing egregious injuries and frequently death. Why would you advocate a free pass for one extreme attack? 

There is no sense in reporting loose dogs to local authorities. The first thing they ask is where does the dog live. Sorry, but the only calling cards they leave I can't cipher. 




MadLab said:


> Reclaim your right to travel freely by arming your self with some non letal spray which will stop a dog in it's tracks.


You really don't know much about Pit Bulls, do you? First of all regarding bear spray, I hope the wind is on your side, as it can easily backfire. Many Pit Bulls are not phased by any sprays, same can be said about tasers. They are bred to work through adversity, they are, after all, gamebred. It is one of the qualities that make a Pit Bull a Pit Bull. Besides, spray would be totally useless when the Pit Bull is already attached to its victims.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why would we fine people who allow there dogs off leash and unattended? Should we fine people who are of age, have valid driver's licenses, are sober, and not involved in accidents?


What does this mean?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

It was suggested by somebody else to fine people with off leash or unattended dogs based simply on that criteria. My response was intended to point out that there was no need to enact or strengthen leash laws when that, in and of itself, does not appear to be a precursor for maulings and deaths among all breeds of dogs any more than somebody of legal age, sober, with a valid drivers license would be found at the root of an alcohol related accident. It happens, but it is not the norm.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> This country doesn't really have a problem with Bullmastiffs, Presas, Dogos, Rotts, Akitas, or Tosas, and their mixes.


All those dogs are as dangerous if not more so, than a pitbull imo. It's just they may not be the most pop breeds at the moment. They would cause problems too i would say brought up a bad way or let roam around the streets.



> Why would we fine people who allow there dogs off leash and unattended?


Dogs should be under supervision and be leashed imo in public. If someone can demonstrate good control with out a leash or with an ecollar then thats cool. I'm trying not to discriminate against a breed as i know a dog is a dog. I'm not making laws here, I'm just giving my views. I believe a dog whatever the breed is the responsibility of the owner, and the owner should be present with the dog in public. Your the one having an issue with being high jacked by roaming dogs. 



> The problem with removing roaming dogs which cause problems is that the loose dogs causing problems where I live are Pit Bulls


The dogs should be reported to local authorities and removed if causing a danger to the public. Doesn't matter what breed they are .



> You really don't know much about Pit Bulls, do you?


I could say the same about you.

I know people with APBT, Irish pitbulls, staffies and bullmastiff crosses. I have a Bullmastiff cross myself. She is a grand dog as are my friends dogs. Responsible owners would not want to loose there dogs. I only know a few people who let there dogs roam and they are not pits and they do get into accidents with cars. There is the romantic notion of dogs free roaming but I don't think it is realistic in todays world. 



> They are bred to work through adversity, they are, after all, gamebred.


Generally gamebred pitbulls are worth alot of money and aren't left to wander the streets. What you are encountering is probably bully mutts. People call them pitbulls. If a rott chased you you'd probably call it a pitbull. All dangerous dogs are probably pitbulls to you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

How people perceive the dangers of different breeds is a personal matter. If you were to ask most Pit Bull advocates about dangerous breeds, you would get a resounding Chihuahuas bite more. Perceptions will not address the reality of the Pit Bull problem as supported by statistics.

To repeat my earlier post, I grew up when leash laws did not exist. There were few issues, dog bite related deaths averaged 1-3 per year. In 2014, with stringent leash laws in effect, 42 people lost their lives to dog attacks. So far this year there have been 7 dog bite related fatalities. Summer is the busy season, no doubt more to come. The breeds you list account for few to none of those deaths. It seems, if anything, that the extensive leash laws in place today have backfired and there are far more deaths than ever before, or maybe there is a Pit Bull problem.

I am not being highjacked by roaming dogs although many times free roaming Pit Bulls regularly try to access my yard to kill my pets or attack neighbors, primarily the elderly trying to walk their small dogs. Most of the attacks I spoke of that have impacted my life, did not occur by unattended Pit Bulls. The owners were right there. Perhaps I did not make myself clear enough. I do agree with owner responsibility, but I do not absolve the dog from its actions. Most dog breeds are purpose bred to exhibit certain behavioral qualities. I think the biggest problem with Pit Bulls is that Pit Bull advocates acknowledge that fact about other breeds but refuse to acknowledge the same about Pit Bulls, and therefore, fail to manage and control.

You come to my house, and you can follow all these loose Pit Bulls or people with Pit Bulls, and find out where they live. I will take care of the rest of it from there.

I know the breed all too well. You seem to lack real experience with the breed, but then again your country has BSL. 

I can't speak for other people, but I can speak for myself, and I don't want to lose any of my pets, especially to Pit Bull attacks. Nor do I want them mauled, maimed, dismembered or disemboweled as is happening across this country every day. 

Gamebred Pit Bulls generally aren't the problem. I am not encountering bully mutts, they are rather rare where I live. People do know what kind of breed they choose to own. 

Your false accusations demonstrate that you have nothing left and have to resort to personal insults because the facts don't support your nice pittie stance.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It was suggested by somebody else to fine people with off leash or unattended dogs based simply on that criteria. My response was intended to point out that there was no need to enact or strengthen leash laws when that, in and of itself, does not appear to be a precursor for maulings and deaths among all breeds of dogs any more than somebody of legal age, sober, with a valid drivers license would be found at the root of an alcohol related accident. It happens, but it is not the norm.


I disagree with this. Strengthening and enforcing existing leash laws can absolutely help prevent attacks. Someone who lets their dog roam unattended or off leash is breaking the law, and if the dog was aggressive, it provides a perfect opportunity for it to attack people or dogs. 

The comparison to a person who is of legal age, sober with a valid license does not at all equate the person with an off leash, unattended dog is irresponsible and putting people at risk. Whether the dog attacks someone or it walks into a busy road causing an accident. 

My area has no leash laws. I love that their are no leash laws as do most people in the community. However, there is one person who brings their pitbull on off leash hikes and also lets the dog escape from its yard frequently. It then roams the neighborhood or makes its way onto the hiking trails and often attacks other dogs sending them, to the vet. Numerous people have filed complaints, the dog has been picked up by animal control many times, the sherif has been called when dogs were injured. But they can't do anything until an actual person gets injured trying to break up a fight, because there are no leash laws here, basically. 

The majority of dog attacks I have heard about were off leash/roaming dogs. If people with pit bulls were not letting their dogs roam, and not letting them off leash, I don't think there would be anywhere near as many problems.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CaliGSD3 said:


> If people with pit bulls were not letting their dogs roam, and not letting them off leash, I don't think there would be anywhere near as many problems.


Actually, you do agree with me.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How people perceive the dangers of different breeds is a personal matter. If you were to ask most Pit Bull advocates about dangerous breeds, you would get a resounding Chihuahuas bite more. Perceptions will not address the reality of the Pit Bull problem as supported by statistics.


Yeah this is one thing I have a problem with. There are a lot of "pit bull advocates" that ignore logic and common sense. Yeah, I bet chihuahuas do bite more than pitbulls. But how many chihuahua have you heard of actually killing a person? Lol it's a huge difference when someone is irresponsible with an animal that can easily inflict as much damage as a pitbull, compared to someone who is irresponsible with a little chihuahua. its like leaving an air soft gun out for your kid to play with vs a hand gun.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Actually, you do agree with me.


Okay lol I must've just misunderstood


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You say 



> Many Pit Bulls are not phased by any sprays, same can be said about tasers. *They are bred to work through adversity, they are, after all, gamebred.*


And then you say



> *Gamebred Pit Bulls generally aren't the problem*.


Possibly you are angry about the situation in your area and your judgement is clouded. I don't mean to offend you or belittle the harm a bully dog can do. 

Though, I believe any dog can do the same damage depending on the situation. Historically many dog types and breeds have caused harm to humans and peoples pets. 

Pit bull types seem to be much higher these days at actually causing fatalities in the US. But GSD's, Rotts and mutts are in the statistics too. People shouldn't ignore that fact. Labs are probably there too. 


I've said all I needed to in this thread and anybody else can discuss the matter further if they want. I don't have an axe to grind on the issue. I like all dogs. I believe the pitbulls are some of the most abused dogs in history and there should be something done about it to improve there situation. 

Communities should not be tormented by roaming dogs of any breed. If it is really bad in an area people should stand up and make there neighborhoods safe if the authorities don't do anything about it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CaliGSD3 said:


> My area has no leash laws. I love that their are no leash laws as do most people in the community. However, there is one person who brings their pitbull on off leash hikes and also lets the dog escape from its yard frequently. It then roams the neighborhood or makes its way onto the hiking trails and often attacks other dogs sending them, to the vet. Numerous people have filed complaints, the dog has been picked up by animal control many times, the sherif has been called when dogs were injured. But they can't do anything until an actual person gets injured trying to break up a fight, because there are no leash laws here, basically.
> 
> The majority of dog attacks I have heard about were off leash/roaming dogs. If people with pit bulls were not letting their dogs roam, and not letting them off leash, I don't think there would be anywhere near as many problems.


Is this a leashing issue or is this a Pit Bull problem?

Why should you and the people of your community who love not having leash laws, promote leash laws because of Pit Bulls?

Rather than punish yourselves, perhaps your community should address the Pit Bull problem. 

I live where there are strict leash laws. They have done little to nothing to affect the Pit Bull problem. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. You will deprive yourselves from the off leash enjoyment with your dogs but the Pit Bull owner will most likely continue his reckless way. The worst that would most likely happen to the Pit Bull if he were loose and your area had leashing laws in effect would most likely be a 10 day in home quarantine. That won't resurrect a dog or cat from the dead any more than a vet could reattach the ear of a German Shepherd like the one previously mentioned.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is this a leashing issue or is this a Pit Bull problem?
> 
> Why should you and the people of your community who love not having leash laws, promote leash laws because of Pit Bulls?
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, totally not wanting a leash law! I really would like to see this person at least get in trouble/dog taken away or HEFTY fine for his dog attacking other dogs. I know any dog could technically be roaming and aggressive. There is actually one other Doberman mix that causes trouble here as well so it not only the pit bull. But I am more worried about the pitt because as previously mentioned... They tend to cause more damage in an attack and can be harder to fend off!
I would not be for banning the breed entirely, because there are responsible owners and I don't think they should be punished, but I would be all for making more stringent requirements for ownership of pitbulls. For example, if the dog attacks once, he is no longer legal to own, if he is found roaming unattended, hefty fine or dog taken away. In areas where there were already leash laws, that would just be one more way to enforce along with roaming dogs if the leash laws are there anyways... That's why I lumped leash laws in with roaming dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You are just playing with semantics. All Pit Bulls derive from gamebred stock. Those today that derive from reputable breeders are selectively bred to be game, while backyard breeders just breed two Pit Bulls. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The intent was that well bred Pit Bulls are seldom recklessly owned or managed, nor do those breeders deny the Pit Bulls inherent traits.

My judgment is not clouded. Rather it appears your judgment is being that you don't live in this country and are not endangered by the breed. You don't have to readjust your every day life style because somebody else owns a Pit Bull. 

Making false accusations that a person can't identify a breed, or would deliberately misidentify a breed because somebody does not agree with your opinion is offensive.

Statistics, first responders, ER trauma rooms, etc., beg to differ with your all dog bites are equal. Historically, in the US, few breeds have caused egregious harm to humans or pets. Perhaps many dogs can cause extreme damage, but the bottom line is that most breeds are not causing harm.

Nobody is ignoring the fact that other breeds are killing as well. That is a fallacy promoted by the Pit Bull advocacy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CaliGSD3 said:


> For example, if the dog attacks once, he is no longer legal to own, if he is found roaming unattended, hefty fine or dog taken away.


The problem with this is with Pit Bulls, it only takes one attack to kill a dog or cat or even to rip the ear off of a German Shepherd. Your ideas are excellent when addressing most breeds of dogs, not necessarily so when speaking of fighting breeds.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Pitbulls are a breed many people are trying to prove, they import, they fight blindly, they will go hard and all out for the breed and alot of them don't know the first thing about the breed. They live in this fantasy land were pitbulls were a nanny dog for Littles (which is not true) they live in a world were pitbulls never were bred with certain qualities in mind.
It's the blind leading the blind for the most part. Heaven forbid you say anything negative at all.towards the breed or you find yourself with tons of comments that are on the attack.

Some people -
Crazy.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No where did I advocate BSL. German Shepherds may attack and kill on occasion, Pit Bulls do routinely.
> 
> I think you would be hard pressed to find a German Shepherd, or any other breed, that mauled another dog, then later killed that family's cat, then later mauled that same dog again, this time leaving it unable to overcome its injuries.
> 
> ...


Pit bulls are banned in Denver because in a 20 year period, 2 separate people were killed by pit bulls. In that SAME 20 year period, 2 separate people in Denver were killed by huskies. Why then are huskies not banned? There is a very skewed bias towards pit bulls and similar breeds when it comes to reporting attacks. We also have to look at the fact that people are ignorant and lump in NUMEROUS separate breeds as one "type", which is unfair. 

Roughly 30 people are killed every year in the united states by dogs, which I agree is far too many. However when you consider 5x that many people on average drown in their own bathtub every year, I don't think a mass genocide of an entire breed is really needed.

Ban bathtubs! 200 needless deaths yearly!

I'm really rather shocked by the attitude on here towards pitbulls, especially from a german shepherd community that has faced lots of the same stigma.

I will tell you for a FACT, many people that frequently work with dogs, like those in the veterinary field, HATE german shepherds because most german shepherds they encounter are fearful, aggressive nerve bags.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

It also VERY obvious that most of you don't know what a TRUE pit bull is, vs. once again american bully mutts.

A well bred, purebred, gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier, should be small, athletic, under 50lbs. THIS is a true pit bull.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't see many GSD people go off their rocker in the worst way possible when someone mentions something that's not desirable about the breed.
I also don't see GSD people on the regular flat out deny the history of the breed- 
We all know a poorly bred GSD or whatever breed can be a liability, but not in the pitbulls or more realisticly "bully breed mixes" case my goodness- no. 
We have a ban here ,I don't agree with BSL but I really feel alot if these folks live in fantasy land about the APBT/ bully mix mutt.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I don't see many GSD people go off their rocker in the worst way possible when someone mentions something that's not desirable about the breed.
> I also don't see GSD people on the regular flat out deny the history of the breed-
> We all know a poorly bred GSD or whatever breed can be a liability, but not in the pitbulls or more realisticly "bully breed mixes" case my goodness- no.
> We have a ban here ,I don't agree with BSL but I really feel alot if these folks live in fantasy land about the APBT/ bully mix mutt.


Statistically, german shepherds follow "pit bull" types and rottweilers as the number 3 breed related to fatalities (prior to the mid-90s rotties commonly held the number 1 spot for breed related fatalities, after 1997-1998 pit bull types replace rotties). 

So ban pit bulls. Then when there are no more pit bulls and rotties are linked to the most human deaths, will we ban them too? Sure, why not, if they kill the most people. But then it will be german shepherds as the most lethal dog breed, should we ban them as well? 

We own the third most lethal dog breed in the country, so I'll repeat the ignorance and hatred shown on this thread towards pitbulls astounds me a little.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

And your right, alot of people have entirely no idea what a APBT is, how actually rare it is to find a PB in a shelter and just how uncommon the breed actually is, most of these dogs are basic bully breed mixes-


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Anubis_Star said:


> Statistically, german shepherds follow "pit bull" types and rottweilers as the number 3 breed related to fatalities (prior to the mid-90s rotties commonly held the number 1 spot for breed related fatalities, after 1997-1998 pit bull types replace rotties).
> 
> So ban pit bulls. Then when there are no more pit bulls and rotties are linked to the most human deaths, will we ban them too? Sure, why not, if they kill the most people. But then it will be german shepherds as the most lethal dog breed, should we ban them as well?
> 
> We own the third most lethal dog breed in the country, so I'll repeat the ignorance and hatred shown on this thread towards pitbulls astounds me a little.


On the contrary I am far from ignorant against the pitbull. 
I just don't see how denying a whole breeds history and making them.out to be fuzzy nanny dogs that wouldn't hurt a fly helps the breed.
I also don't agree with the BSL-


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The problem with this is with Pit Bulls, it only takes one attack to kill a dog or cat or even to rip the ear off of a German Shepherd. Your ideas are excellent when addressing most breeds of dogs, not necessarily so when speaking of fighting breeds.


I know... I just can't go with completely banning a breed. Because ther ARE some well behaved, well managed ones owned by responsible owners. And honestly breed legislation scares me a little. I know there's a huge difference between a GSD and a pitbull/similar breed. But gsds can and do occasionally cause injuries to some extent as well... I worry that banning one breed would lead to banning others, because not everyone sees the difference. I also try to be understanding to the good pitbull owners who know and love the breed, and manage properly... Just like I love GSDs and I do take extra steps to make sure people are always aware that I have him under control. For example, I usually leash him when I come across people while hiking, even though that's not the norm here... Because I know although mine is as friendly as a dog can get, people don't always assume that when they see a GSD.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> And your right, alot of people have entirely no idea what a APBT is, how actually rare it is to find a PB in a shelter and just how uncommon the breed actually is, most of these dogs are basic bully breed mixes-


Exactly what I mentioned earlier. SO many dogs are labeled as pitbulls that are not. The shelter "pitbulls", at least my experience with them, is that they are generally great, happy, social dogs that come from probably a long line of stray bully mixes and are usually not like a real pitbull at all in looks or behavior. I hate that they get categorized with pitbulls when it comes to breed specific legislation and discrimination.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> Pit bulls are banned in Denver because in a 20 year period, 2 separate people were killed by pit bulls. In that SAME 20 year period, 2 separate people in Denver were killed by huskies. Why then are huskies not banned? There is a very skewed bias towards pit bulls and similar breeds when it comes to reporting attacks. We also have to look at the fact that people are ignorant and lump in NUMEROUS separate breeds as one "type", which is unfair.
> 
> Roughly 30 people are killed every year in the united states by dogs, which I agree is far too many. However when you consider 5x that many people on average drown in their own bathtub every year, I don't think a mass genocide of an entire breed is really needed.
> 
> ...


I have seen a very skewed bias in favor of Pit Bulls when it comes to reporting breeds. I know for fact of a husky and a Pit Bull that killed a baby. The autopsy verified this fact, but only the husky was implicated in the death. This happened only a half hour from my home in McKeesport, look it up for yourself. The Pit Bull killed a baby and was returned to the community, but not the husky.

There was another case of a woman who had a Pit Bull that mauled her to death. The woman, when alive had stated she owned a Pit Bull, neighbors said she owned a Pit Bull, LE on the crime scene said it was a Pit Bull, and even the video, which is still on the internet, shows a solid black 40# Pit Bull. The official report states the breed was a Rottweiler.

If you want to know why huskies aren't banned in Denver, perhaps you should contact Denver, but thanks for documenting that Denver's BSL, which was intended to reduce maulings and killings by Pit Bulls, is a success. 

However, my documentation differs from yours. Mine states this: "Between 1984 and 1989, pit bulls attacked and seriously injured more than 20 people in Colorado. The victims included three-year-old Fernando Salazar, fatally mauled in 1986, and 58-year old Reverend Wilber Billingsley, attacked by a pit bull in the alley behind his home." Now how many "sustained" attacks or deaths by huskies were there in that same five year period? http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/one-citys-experience.pdf

One thing I do agree with you 100% is that dogs should never be lumped together by types but by breeds, their mixes and their derivatives.

30 people? If you were reading this thread and not just skimming, you would have seen that last year alone, 42 people were killed by dogs. Those 12 lives mean a whole lot to their families. Dog bite related deaths have been increasing each and every year for the last several years. And maybe the lives of all those beloved cats and dogs that lost their lives to Pit Bulls mean nothing to you, they mean a lot to their families too.

Bath tubs have not killed a single person by their own volition, dogs do. 

You claim to be an ER vet tech, if you have not seen countless little lives in various forms of dismemberment, disemboweling, crushing injuries, degloving, and death come through that practice by Pit Bulls, then you really must have very few Pit Bulls in your areas. My vet has brought me back on two separate occassions to show me two German Shepherds mauled by Pit Bulls while the GSDs were in their own yard. One's entire body was septic and looked like an alien dog and the other one had to have his leg amputated. Somebody else's right to own Pit Bulls should never trump the right of somebody else to keep their GSD on their own property without a Pit Bull mauling. 

There are no vets in my area that allow Pit Bulls to even be in the same waiting room as other customers. They have two choices, stay outside or they can wait their turn in a separate room. One can't help but wonder what these vets have experienced to take these safety measures to ensure the welfare of their clients.

Pit Bulls are mauling and killing people's pets on a daily basis. One would think that is what you would find shocking, not the fact that people are fed up and tired of being politically correct and are finally speaking the truth about the breed.

Have it your way, German Shepherds are "fearful, aggressive nerve bags", not game bred pit fighters. Why would you even consider comparing the two breeds?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> It also VERY obvious that most of you don't know what a TRUE pit bull is, vs. once again american bully mutts.
> 
> A well bred, purebred, gamebred American Pit Bull Terrier, should be small, athletic, under 50lbs. THIS is a true pit bull.


Wow! Do you flatter yourself or what? Where has anybody here misidentified a Pit Bull for you to come off with that arrogant comment?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> Statistically, german shepherds follow "pit bull" types and rottweilers as the number 3 breed related to fatalities (prior to the mid-90s rotties commonly held the number 1 spot for breed related fatalities, after 1997-1998 pit bull types replace rotties).
> 
> So ban pit bulls. Then when there are no more pit bulls and rotties are linked to the most human deaths, will we ban them too? Sure, why not, if they kill the most people. But then it will be german shepherds as the most lethal dog breed, should we ban them as well?
> 
> We own the third most lethal dog breed in the country, so I'll repeat the ignorance and hatred shown on this thread towards pitbulls astounds me a little.


Rottweilers are a far distant second breed for dog bite related fatalities with huskies in third place with German Shepherds in "6"th place. Not sure where you are getting your numbers from.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

People are irrational about stereotypes, if we descriminate against one then we are allowing the doors to be open to descrminate on against all.

I for one am sick of people discriminating against my sweet pup for no reason, as I am sure other GSD and rotti owners are too. 

I was attacked twice as a child, both times by labs, both with still wagging tails, out of the blue after being friendly and "unprovoked". This is the issue with descrimination two dogs (of different breeds) can do the same thing but because one is a certain breed it is considered a bigger deal... But in reality it will always be the humans fault... My mother should not have allowed me to put my face in the dogs face, and the owner should have been present to get the dog out of the situation. 

Also like others said even if it was true that pitbulls are true lose cannons (which I disagree with) people with discrimination would never distinguish it from what they perceive GSDs to have... So unless we want them to seize and destroy our loved ones the breed hating should definitely stop.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CaliGSD3 said:


> I know... I just can't go with completely banning a breed. Because ther ARE some well behaved, well managed ones owned by responsible owners. And honestly breed legislation scares me a little. I know there's a huge difference between a GSD and a pitbull/similar breed. But gsds can and do occasionally cause injuries to some extent as well... I worry that banning one breed would lead to banning others, because not everyone sees the difference. I also try to be understanding to the good pitbull owners who know and love the breed, and manage properly... Just like I love GSDs and I do take extra steps to make sure people are always aware that I have him under control. For example, I usually leash him when I come across people while hiking, even though that's not the norm here... Because I know although mine is as friendly as a dog can get, people don't always assume that when they see a GSD.


BSL does not mean breed banning, it means a variety of controls for specific breeds according to how they impact specific areas. It could be simply mandating proper containment, age appropriate handling, etc.

I am just as worried about the impact BSL could have on my dogs as well. Ignoring all the sustained attacks and deaths by certain breeds can have an impact on our breed down the road. Humanity mandates that the Pit Bull problem needs reigned in, our love of our breed substantiates the need. 

My fear of what can happen to my dogs is the driving force that keeps me on top of this very grave issue.

Regarding your concerns about well behaved Pit Bulls, there is an old saying by reputable Pit Bull rescues, "Never trust your Pit Bull not to fight".


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CaliGSD3 said:


> Exactly what I mentioned earlier. SO many dogs are labeled as pitbulls that are not. The shelter "pitbulls", at least my experience with them, is that they are generally great, happy, social dogs that come from probably a long line of stray bully mixes and are usually not like a real pitbull at all in looks or behavior. I hate that they get categorized with pitbulls when it comes to breed specific legislation and discrimination.


Stray bully mixes mixed with what?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wick said:


> People are irrational about stereotypes, if we descriminate against one then we are allowing the doors to be open to descrminate on against all.
> 
> I for one am sick of people discriminating against my sweet pup for no reason, as I am sure other GSD and rotti owners are too.
> 
> ...


Couldn't help but notice you could not muster one iota of compassion for all the victims that have been presented in this thread, yet you mention breed haters, what about victim haters?


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> BSL does not mean breed banning, it means a variety of controls for specific breeds according to how they impact specific areas. It could be simply mandating proper containment, age appropriate handling, etc.
> 
> I am just as worried about the impact BSL could have on my dogs as well. Ignoring all the sustained attacks and deaths by certain breeds can have an impact on our breed down the road. Humanity mandates that the Pit Bull problem needs reigned in, our love of our breed substantiates the need.
> 
> ...


I was trying to get across, I'm not okay with BSL when it comes to completely banning breeds, which is usually what people mean when they refer to it, I am okay with them putting restrictions on pitbulls such as requiring them to be leashed in public, and not allowing them to roam, if any attacks happens, or the dog is loose or unsupervised... Then the individual dog is confiscated. I'm okay with that being for specifically pit bulls... And if it came down to it, I could live with those restrictions on my GSD as well. That way people can still responsibly own their breed of choice.

And I did add "well managed" to "well behaved" pitbulls.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> wick said:
> 
> 
> > People are irrational about stereotypes, if we descriminate against one then we are allowing the doors to be open to descrminate on against all.
> ...


I don't like breed discrimination so all of a sudden I have no compassion for the victims?! How insulting. 

My opinion of breed discrimination has nothing to do with my empathy towards attack victims, however now that you mention it... Yes I do feel equally bad for those attacked by GSDs as I do for those attacked by pitbulls.

I sure hope that clears up the confusion of whether I am a victim hater? I didn't realize I needed to defend my humanity, I assumed it was a given that we all feel horrible about these attacks. 

Also did I do something to offend you?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I own a 'fearful, aggressive, nerve-bag' GSD. She is properly managed and contained at all times.
As opposed to the two Bullies across the street who seem friendly enough, but are constantly loose and harassing people on the sidewalk. 
I have nothing in particular against the breed/type, but since I am aware of the predisposition toward animal aggression I certainly do not want a loose one around. I have noted over the years that they seem, unfortunately, to attract horrible, irresponsible owners. 
I have been bitten by a Cocker, a Chow, a SCWT, a Mastiff x and a few GSDs. I had my arm brutally mauled by a Lab x. My Dane was attacked by a loose Pitbull, Sabi and Bud were attacked in our yard by a loose Pitbull, it also broke through our door to get at Bud another day. A friends old GSD was killed in her living room by her two Pitbulls. My former neighbors little Shih Tzu was killed by a loose Pitbull. All dogs can be aggressive, sadly the Bullies seem to be owned by and large by people who would see them used as weapons, and by people who wish to shrug off their habit of killing other animals. 
To my mind, a person who willfully directs their dog to do harm is guilty of assault with a deadly weapon AND animal cruelty. If that attack causes death, they are guilty of murder.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

H


Sabis mom said:


> I own a 'fearful, aggressive, nerve-bag' GSD. She is properly managed and contained at all times.
> As opposed to the two Bullies across the street who seem friendly enough, but are constantly loose and harassing people on the sidewalk.
> I have nothing in particular against the breed/type, but since I am aware of the predisposition toward animal aggression I certainly do not want a loose one around. I have noted over the years that they seem, unfortunately, to attract horrible, irresponsible owners.
> I have been bitten by a Cocker, a Chow, a SCWT, a Mastiff x and a few GSDs. I had my arm brutally mauled by a Lab x. My Dane was attacked by a loose Pitbull, Sabi and Bud were attacked in our yard by a loose Pitbull, it also broke through our door to get at Bud another day. A friends old GSD was killed in her living room by her two Pitbulls. My former neighbors little Shih Tzu was killed by a loose Pitbull. All dogs can be aggressive, sadly the Bullies seem to be owned by and large by people who would see them used as weapons, and by people who wish to shrug off their habit of killing other animals.
> To my mind, a person who willfully directs their dog to do harm is guilty of assault with a deadly weapon AND animal cruelty. If that attack causes death, they are guilty of murder.


I share your opinions on all accounts. Thank you for sharing your stories and opinions! I too agree that they attract the type of owners that either are unwilling to put in the work to properly manage their dogs or that actively encourage aggression

I believe we all put in immense amount of work to train and manage our dogs and it makes the difference in numbers of severe attacks. Which is why it is my opinion that the blame is on humans more than the dog.

However I personally don't want to see ANY dogs off leash running around not in designated areas (dog parks or anywhere I know ahead of time they will be loose). I don't like random dogs running up to Wick regardless of breed because I have no way of knowing if they are friendly or not!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not a site I would normally use for information, but it's late...

2014 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org

Long and short, in all of the US, in 2014, there were 42 deaths by dogs. 

That is less than 1 death by dog per state. 

Now let's look at some other statistics:

From Car and Deer Collisions Cause 200 Deaths, Cost $4 Billion a Year

An estimated 1.23 million deer-vehicle collisions occurred in the U.S. between July 1, 2011 and June 30, 2012, costing more than $4 billion in vehicle damage, according to State Farm, the nation’s leading auto insurer.
Damage caused by an accident with deer or other animals is covered under the optional comprehensive portion (not the collision portion) of an automobile insurance policy. Comprehensive auto insurance includes coverage for: fire, theft, vandalism or malicious damage, riot, flood, earthquake or explosion, hail, windstorm, falling or flying objects, damage due to contact with a bird or animal and sometimes, depending on the policy, windshield damage.
The average claim for deer-vehicle collisions between July 1, 2011 and June 30, 2012 was $3,305, up 4.4 percent from the previous year with costs varying depending on the type of vehicle and severity of the damage. Over the last four years, the number of deer-related claims paid out by State Farm increased 7.9 percent, while other claims involving moving vehicles (i.e. first-party, physical damage claims not caused by weather, criminal activity or fire) declined 8.6 percent.
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) noted that deer-vehicle collisions in the U.S. cause about 200 fatalities annually.


And from the oracle of all knowledge, Lightning strike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



According to the NOAA, over the last 20 years, the United States averaged 51 annual lightning strike fatalities, placing it in the second position, just behind floods for deadly weather.[5][6] In the US, between 9% and 10% of those struck die,[7] for an average of 40 to 50 deaths per year (28 in 2008).[8] The chance of an average person living in the US being struck by lightning in a given year is estimated at 1 in 500,000, while the chance of being struck by lightning in a lifetime is 1 in 6250 (estimated lifespan of 80 years).[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike#cite_note-9


I am sorry, but I just cannot get too hot and heavy about a handful of deaths caused by dogs. We hear about it because it is gruesome. How many of us know someone personally who was killed by a dog? I don't. My first grade teacher's husband was killed by lightning, she brought the clothes he was wearing in and we saw where he was wearing his camera. I don't know of anyone that close that was killed by a dog. 

Should we, as dog owners and dog lovers get on irresponsible owners who let their animals roam, attack livestock, people, pets? Of course. They ought to get the snot knocked right out of them. But denying people the dogs just because some dogs somewhere killed someone? Well, if they can do it to pits, they can do it to our breed too.

64% of the deaths were pits. 36% were not pits. That means, these people who want to get rid of pits will also be going after the other deadly dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wick said:


> I don't like breed discrimination so all of a sudden I have no compassion for the victims?! How insulting.
> 
> My opinion of breed discrimination has nothing to do with my empathy towards attack victims, however now that you mention it... Yes I do feel equally bad for those attacked by GSDs as I do for those attacked by pitbulls.
> 
> ...


You defended the breed and discrimination but neglected the victims, their rights, and their often immensely altered lives after a mauling or death of a child. The most you can muster still, is that you feel just as bad for GSD victims as much as those of Pit Bulls. Sorry for being sensitive, but I don't hear a lot of empathy for the human or animal victims, but only for the equality of the Pit Bull.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Not a site I would normally use for information, but it's late...
> 
> 2014 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org
> 
> ...


Seriously, 42 people dead in one year, according to your numbers 64% by Pit Bulls, and those people are of no consequence? Yet 200 by deer are enough?


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> wick said:
> 
> 
> > I don't like breed discrimination so all of a sudden I have no compassion for the victims?! How insulting.
> ...


That's because in my post I was being facetious. I feel no obligation to try and explain or defend whether or not I am a kind loving human being to someone who used it as a cheap shot at my post about keeping owners responsible for their dogs.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Actually one of the last valid studies to truly determine breed statistics was done by CDC, 1979-1999 DBRF. If you Google it there is a pdf you can download. media reports on breeds, as is commonly used by sites like dogbite.org, are HIGHLY unreliable.

The AVMA journal study posted below was one of the latest studies done on DBRF, it found NO correlation between breed and deaths. It was one of the only studies to ever use animal control reports and not media reports. It found 256 deaths from 2000-2009, of the breeds both reported by animal control AND the media, there was a 40% discrepancy! The study also found only 17.6% of breeds involved in fatalities were able to be adequately identified.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.243.12.1726


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wick said:


> That's because in my post I was being facetious. I feel no obligation to try and explain or defend whether or not I am a kind loving human being to someone who used it as a cheap shot at my post about keeping owners responsible for their dogs.


No, you don't need to defend yourself to anybody, but if you find Pit Bull maulings and deaths something to be "facetious" about, then perhaps we should just agree to disagree and let it go. I find nothing humorous about the mauling death of a child, or a pet.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Well on that I agree with you completely.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

selzer said:


> Not a site I would normally use for information, but it's late...
> 
> 2014 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - Dog Bite Statistics - DogsBite.org
> 
> ...




Honestly, I'm more worried for my dog than myself or people in general when it comes to pitbulls. of course it's much more terrible for a person to get injured or killed by a pitbull. But it is relatively an infrequent occurrence although a real concern.
Imo pitbulls are more prone to dog aggression, and judging by what I've seen and experienced alone, dogs are attacked, injured, or killed by pitbulls pretty frequently... And in the case of a pitbull attack, the outcome is much worse with a pitbull vs another breed. 

Just thought if point out that attacks on people aren't the only factor worth considering.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> Actually one of the last valid studies to truly determine breed statistics was done by CDC, 1979-1999 DBRF. If you Google it there is a pdf you can download. media reports on breeds, as is commonly used by sites like dogbite.org, are HIGHLY unreliable.
> 
> The AVMA journal study posted below was one of the latest studies done on DBRF, it found NO correlation between breed and deaths. It was one of the only studies to ever use animal control reports and not media reports. It found 256 deaths from 2000-2009, of the breeds both reported by animal control AND the media, there was a 40% discrepancy! The study also found only 17.6% of breeds involved in fatalities were able to be adequately identified.
> 
> An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


Conclusions—Although fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers),..

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

If only the cases that resulted in very severe injuries or fatalities are considered, pit bull-type dogs are more frequently identified.

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/L...of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx

Literature Review
March 12, 2015


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen a very skewed bias in favor of Pit Bulls when it comes to reporting breeds. I know for fact of a husky and a Pit Bull that killed a baby. The autopsy verified this fact, but only the husky was implicated in the death. This happened only a half hour from my home in McKeesport, look it up for yourself. The Pit Bull killed a baby and was returned to the community, but not the husky.
> 
> There was another case of a woman who had a Pit Bull that mauled her to death. The woman, when alive had stated she owned a Pit Bull, neighbors said she owned a Pit Bull, LE on the crime scene said it was a Pit Bull, and even the video, which is still on the internet, shows a solid black 40# Pit Bull. The official report states the breed was a Rottweiler.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I can post pictures of my cat that my german shepherd mauled to death. That might not be appropriate.

I see dog bites come in all the time. The majority of them are housemates getting into fights. No, the majority are NOT pit bulls. And that's not from a lack of pit bulls in the area. Denver ships all their pits to Adams County and Jefferson County shelters. Non-denver suburbs have a very large number of pit bulls.

Denver is constantly put down for its BSL because it consistently has the highest number of dog bites in the state despite euthanizing THOUSANDS of pit bulls in the name of "protection", I did time in city shelters in BSL areas and I can not tell you the number of friendly pit bulls I've seen confiscated and euthanized for having a block head and short fur. And I blame the owners just as much for living in those areas and owning them.

I work around dogs for a living, and no I do NOT agree at all that pit bulls are that agressive.

Sounds like you live in a crappy area with crappy dog owners. I wouldn't condem a breed as a whole across the board because of that.

One of the worst dog bite wounds I saw was a shar pei who's leg was caught through the fence by the neighbors german shepherd, the limb was hanging on by one tendon


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Wow! Do you flatter yourself or what? Where has anybody here misidentified a Pit Bull for you to come off with that arrogant comment?


Yes, many people have


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Anubis_Star said:


> Perhaps I can post pictures of my cat that my german shepherd mauled to death. That might not be appropriate.
> 
> I see dog bites come in all the time. The majority of them are housemates getting into fights. No, the majority are NOT pit bulls. And that's not from a lack of pit bulls in the area. Denver ships all their pits to Adams County and Jefferson County shelters. Non-denver suburbs have a very large number of pit bulls.
> 
> ...


Would you like me to show you pictures of the four cats that weren't mine that I shoveled off the streets in various states of maiming, degloving, and dismemberment that I took in and paid to have them pieced back together? That would not be counting the plethora of neighborhood cats that did not not survive. A lot of other neighbors have done the same for cats in the community. 

I have had workingline German Shepherds for decades, none of mine have ever mauled one of my cats or any cat let alone killed one. There is a responsibility that comes with owning breeds such as these that extends to other pets in the family. 

Denver is constantly put down by Pit Bull advocates, who in reality are a very tiny, very vocal, but exceptionally well funded group. The reality of it all is that at Denver's elections last year, the PEOPLE OF DENVER voted to keep its ban on Pit Bulls by a landslide despite the outcry and campaign by Pit Bull advocates nationwide. BSL and this discussion is not about mere dog bites, it is about sustained or extreme maulings and deaths by Pit Bulls. Perhaps staying on topic would be a good idea. 

How about telling the truth about all those friendly Pit Bulls in areas that are being euthanized in areas that have BSL? First and foremost, I have never seen any banning enacted where existing Pit Bulls were not grandfathered in, albeit sometimes with restrictions. Take Ohio for example, when they enacted their state wide ban. Existing Pit Bulls were grandfathered in with reasonable restrictions. It was the PIT BULL OWNERS that abandoned their Pit Bulls in droves in shelters because they REFUSED to be responsible about their Pit Bulls. As for the Pit Bulls being removed from homes, those are the Pit Bulls that LAWBREAKERS brought in thinking the laws were for the next guy, and if they wanted to own a Pit Bull in an area where Pit Bulls are banned, then, darn it, they will. Let's lay the blame where it belongs, not on BSL, but on those that don't think they have to abide by the laws. Sure, the Pit Bull is the one who suffers, but not because of the banning, but because of its owners.

For somebody that works with animals, there seems to be a lack of knowledge on genetics. A Pit Bull without game or dog / animal aggression is nothing but a mere shell of a Pit Bull. Same could be said about a German Shepherd without self assurance or protective abilities. If you have ever read the breeds standards of both breeds, you would find these qualities are called for, and reputable breeders strive to meet or exceed the breed standard with every litter they put on the ground.

I never stated that all Pit Bulls are aggressive, especially human aggressive, but the majority are dog or animal aggressive. It is their breed standard, they are supposed to be. 

I don't condemn crappy owners for being duped into believing that Pit Bulls are the nice doggies that they aren't. Love the breed for what it is. They are bred to be the ultimate gladiators of the dog world. If this is what you want in a dog, fine, own it, and manage and control it. If you want a Golden Retriever temperament and think you can love and kiss the genes out of a Pit Bull, don't get a Pit Bull.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/administrator-messages/558506-personal-bickering.html


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