# How do you know if you're the "alpha" ?



## Doggypuppy (Sep 12, 2013)

Hello

So our girl is now 17 weeks old. Thank god shes starting to stop biting as you all said!

However, I am abit worried..

It seems that she enjoys my girlfriend more than me.
The reason I believe this is because she seems alot happier when my GF is home. However, when she is not at home she seems alot more calm. 

She follows my GF around and when she shuts the door, she waits for her.
However, she bites her and "challange" her by barking at her / almost biting when she never does this towards me. 

She wouldnt dare bark at me.


When we're outside (Both at the same time) we both started to walk towards one way and the puppy follows my GF.


Another example:
If we are outside and my GF yells "Come here Kira" She comes to her faster than when I call for her.
However, if she does something shes not supposed to and I say NO, she lissens more to me than to my GF. 

She never bites me nor tries but she tries with my GF. 


Gah, so confusing post .. I hope someone understands it. 

To sum this all up:
My puppy seems happier / like my GF more.
But she seems to respect me and be alot more calm around me. 


So is it that my GF is the alpha over my puppy or am I? 
How do you really know whos the alpha? are there any signs or anything?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My best advice for you is to forget about "Alpha". It's outdated and will drive you crazy. 

Be a good fair benevolent leader, have fun with your puppy and don't try to dominate her. She is a BABY!!!

Don't worry about who she likes more, work together so she listens equally to both and has equal amounts if fun with both. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> she seems alot happier when my GF is home.


She is not happier, but livelier - not for your GF, but in her presence. Your dog cannot possibly be happy in such situation - because another bitch is threatening her position in the pack. Of course, your GF is not a dog, but it only us know that, your dog doesn't. In respect to recognition of your own self, this sort of ability to recognise between different creatures is typical only to humans, apes and dolphins. Dogs think that humans are the dogs. But, they recognise sexes immediately in any creature. If your GF would try taking her for a walk herself - most likely your dog will refuse to go with her. But soft lengthy brush grooming at home will help. Ignore her bites, otherwise they will become more frequent and stronger. It could be good idea if three of you would spend one weekend somewhere in the wild, eat together and sleep in one room as a strong pack would do.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Our dog loves me more than my son and daughter. If we all get home together. Dexter will pass both of them up and come to me for kisses and tail wags. However he is the most calm around me. He is the liveliest around my son, but that is because my son plays with him that way. He loves my son third in the house. My daughter is his second favorite.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Here's my take on it.

Your relationship with the pup is normal but you should learn more in future on how to train this pup. It is better to have it respect you. Research training and you will develop a better recall and obedience. The pup is young so don't expect too much. If you had more knowledge you'd not let the situation with your girlfriend develop. 

The pup sees your girlfriend as lower in rank than herself. This may be due to her body language etc. As you say the pup challenges your girlfriend more or seems to. The pup is sensing your girlfriends weakness in animal terms and is establishing herself as higher in a pack sense to her. Thus she is waiting for her and even the recall to your girlfriend is because maybe the pup is worried there is something wrong when your girlfriend calls it.

Also the pup is calm in your presence but shows excitement when your girlfriend arrives. To me excitement is unstable pack structure and calmness is stable pack structure. Don't confuse happiness with excitement. Dogs jump on each other and nip each other in order to establish rank when there is excitement in my opinion. Calmness means stability so no change in rank for anybody.

'Cesar's way' is a good book to read to understand pack structure a bit more. Also his mastering leadership dvds are good and you can find them on youtube.

Generally his no touch, no talk and no eye contact on greeting a pup is really good way to make sure the pup doesn't get the idea that your girlfriends entrance into your place is not a chance to higher her perceived pack rank. If your girl friend walks in head high and ignore the pup and acts more 'above' the pup then the pup will respect her more and stop the biting and not develop the anxiety, ie waiting at doors for her etc. 

I don't look at it like alpha / lower ranks / beta, I'm more like the humans are above dogs period. That is a natural law. No matter what the humans and what the dogs. If a person doesn't have much experience with dogs then they can allow a dog to have a false perception of rank and this goes on to produce separation anxiety and other stress for the dog as it cannot handle the role of leader to a human. A dog is much more content being a follower of a human.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Dave Taggart says


> In respect to recognition of your own self, this sort of ability to recognise between different creatures is typical only to humans, apes and dolphins. Dogs think that humans are the dogs.


I don't agree. My dogs can tell the difference between a dog and a human from 100 yards away if not further. The movement and pose is totally different. Dogs perceive movement and body language and can tell a cat from a small dog from a good distance too. I guess they learn these things as they grow but have you ever noticed walking you dog through busy streets and then the dog sees another dog. There is instantly a change in the dogs energy. They sense there own kind very well and definitely know the difference between a dog and a human. That doesn't mean dogs can't or won't try to manipulate us humans if we don't know better.


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## vprasad (May 17, 2013)

I don't believe in the alpha position. But some simple things I practice with my pup are: 
- He can't eat his food until I tell him.
- He cant get out of the house until I call him out.
- He can't enter the kitchen.
- He can't play with another dog (or person) until he calms down and I tell him 'ok go play.'
These types of rules are simple (but you should be consistent) and will help you a LOT in earning respect from your puppy .


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

David Taggart said:


> She is not happier, but livelier - not for your GF, but in her presence. Your dog cannot possibly be happy in such situation - because another bitch is threatening her position in the pack. Of course, your GF is not a dog, but it only us know that, your dog doesn't. In respect to recognition of your own self, this sort of ability to recognise between different creatures is typical only to humans, apes and dolphins. Dogs think that humans are the dogs. But, they recognise sexes immediately in any creature. If your GF would try taking her for a walk herself - most likely your dog will refuse to go with her. But soft lengthy brush grooming at home will help. Ignore her bites, otherwise they will become more frequent and stronger. It could be good idea if three of you would spend one weekend somewhere in the wild, eat together and sleep in one room as a strong pack would do.


So let's see here...

Dogs don't know the difference between humans and dogs - wrong! Explain why a dog can be dog aggressive and not human aggressive then. 

A 17 week old puppy is going to feel threatened by her position in the pack from the OP's girlfriend - wrong!

All dogs immediately recognize and differentiate sexes no matter the species - I'd like to see some proof of that.

The puppy will refuse to go for a walk with OP's girlfriend because of her sex - huh?

A weekend in the wild as a pack a wolves would do - whatever floats your boat, i guess.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If dogs didn't know the difference between dogs and humans you wouldn't have dog aggressive dogs that didn't get reactive to humans or people aggressive dogs that didn't get reactive to dogs. -Edit Lucy beat me to it.

What is more likely happening here is the puppy feels more open to play with the GF because she isn't as much of a disciplinarian, the barking and biting is the puppys attempt to engage your gf to play. When she does it to you she likely gets reprimanded when she does it to your gf she probably either squirms (which puppies love) or stops the puppy in a much more gentle way. Your puppy probably sees your gf as far more entertaining and less restrictive and that is what you are seeing.

It has nothing to do with rank, rank is more of a human concept applied to a situation that is way more simple than that. The dog knows what it can get away with situation to situation and what it can't. It knows if an action with a particular person will lead to a positive experience or a negative one as long as the action and reaction are consistent. The Cesar stuff while great in some ways fails in many others. Walking ahead of a dog or making sure the dog goes through doors after you won't make the dog respect you as a higher rank. It just means the dog will defer to you (in that particular situation) because that's what you taught him through punishment or reward and the puppy wants reward and doesn't want punishment. It is all situational. You have to train exactly what you want in your dog for all situations.


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## OffgridAlex (Dec 11, 2012)

I think you need to remember this is a puppy. At 17 weeks old biting and barking at your GF aren't "challenging" behaviour they are puppy play. 

I feel a bit like you might be playing psychological games and worrying about things that are a bit above your puppies development level. 

Also being pack leader is not about creating some kind of act in front of your dog, the dog will learn who really is the alpha in the household. If you make the decisions, hold the most power and are dominant in your household your dog will know, of your GF does more of these things then the dog will know. 
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

forget about alpha. you and your GF due all things equal when
it's comes to the pup. it's not your pup or her pup. it's our pup.
don't put your pup in the position that she has to decide who to 
follow. why wouldn't your pup "dare to bark at you"?



Doggypuppy said:


> Hello
> 
> So our girl is now 17 weeks old. Thank god shes starting to stop biting as you all said!
> 
> ...


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Probably because he smacked the heck outta her and alpha rolled her the last time she did it. In any case you gotta look at it this way. Dog wants to play with you barks and goes for play nip. The proper response isn't to punish its to ignore if its outta hand crate the pup till she calms down. At the most you can say off if you trained the off command or a firm no will work too. Then engage her in play when she does calm down. You want to play with the pup and have fun with the pup you just want it done on your terms otherwise she learns she can start it whenever she wants through barking and nipping. 

The other thing to keep in mind. If your pup is spending all the time with you or the majority of time with you she will tend to value your girlfriend more just because she is more scarce and therefore more exciting as a result of that. If you were around less and she spent all the time with your girlfriend the situation would probably flip to a degree.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Probably because he smacked the heck outta her and alpha rolled her the last time she did it.


That is totally presumptuous and a bit ignorant. 



> The proper response isn't to punish its to ignore if its outta hand crate the pup till she calms down.


Your an authority on what the 'proper' course of action is? I though you were just giving your opinion like everybody else.

I love the way you associate negative connotations to methods of discipline you may not agree with. Your e collar and prong and etc etc can be used negatively as can striking a dog or alpha rolling. It depends on the context of use. 

Why are Cesar haters transfixed with the alpha roll and punishment. Do they fail to recognize or disagree with his main ideas of no touch no talk and no eye contact to greet and establish pack structure, Exercise, Dicipline, Affection to divide your time with the dog, .. Rules boundaries limitations to give a dog what is allowed and expected of it. Nose, eyes, ears, a respectful way dogs greet others. He aims for calm submission in his dog training. That is attainable and beneficial to any household.



> Walking ahead of a dog or making sure the dog goes through doors after you won't make the dog respect you as a higher rank


Check out the Tyler Muto videos of how to rehab excited and out of control dogs. Getting the dog to walk behind certainly does develop respect. Maybe the word rank is alien to your understanding of dogs but i see it at play with my dogs every day and keeping them in check does provide pack stability. Even if it is just one dog and a few humans. The pack structure is humans then dog. The dog is totally comfortable being treated as a dog and any elevation in rank is confusing and a source of stress leading to undesirable behavior.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You see what you want to see. The actual scientific studies are in direct conflict with the dominance theories. I don't consider myself a Cesar hater, and there are certainly times where punishment of a dog is necessary and beneficial but this wasn't one of them (if it did indeed happen it certainly sounded like it did). If people actually followed Cesars methods instead of what they assume his methods were I'd have a lot less problem with it, but they don't. They go overboard due to damage to ego.

Don't think just because I prefer positive that I am permissive of behaviors I find objectionable. Positive does not mean permissive.

But you can go on believing in something being pushed by someone with no formal training who isn't even a great dog trainer or behaviorist. He is someone who got lucky in California because he speaks the kind of crap people believe over there smells of newage crap but oldschool ideas. It works better than nothing at all ofc, but it doesn't work as well as the other stuff that is out there, and is usually misinterpreted.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Doggypuppy, well you certainly have alot of different suggestions/opinions on this thread!

I agree with those that are tossing the dominant 'Alpha' idea out the window in the pursuit of becoming more of a calm Leader in your pup's life. 

Have you had a chance to look at these 2 sites yet? The ATTITUDE of a puppy is much more important to me than it's 100% obedience. Because a puppy who is dying to be with/on/learning from me can learn anything in the long run. So if I can link to that attitude, we can rule the world ! 

Please take a look at --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html as well as ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-time-owner/165774-gsd-puppy-primer-tips.html

Good luck (and remember MaggieRoseLee is always right!!! except when she's not  )


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Bailif ...


> go on believing in something being pushed by someone with no formal training who isn't even a great dog trainer or behaviorist. He is someone who got lucky in California because he speaks the kind of crap people believe over there smells of newage crap but oldschool ideas.


I have said my bit but will flog the dead horse a little more if you don't mind.

Cesar has been working with dogs for over 20 years. He does not need to go to college and learn how to write an essay about on dog behavior.

He knows tonnes more than you due to his experience, so you shouldn't knock him so much. 

You also should realize he has become popular due to his common sense approach and simple techniques, not the impressionability of his audience. I don't understand why you wish to put down his audience because they are just everyday people like your self.

His skill in dealing with packs of dogs is very evident from his many shows. We're talking about hundreds of shows here. I'd be surprised if you could tell me another trainer who does what he does with large packs. His idea of the power of the pack is unique and something you should consider.



> If people actually followed Cesars methods instead of what they assume his methods were


I think you are one of the ones assuming to know his methods and knocking them, so you should pick up his book and have a read.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MadLab said:


> Why are Cesar haters transfixed with the alpha roll and punishment.


Characterizing anyone who disagrees with anything that Cesar does as a "Cesar hater" is inaccurate and ridiculous.  The reason people point out the alpha roll and dominance stuff is because that's the stuff they have a problem with. Do you hate everyone that you aren't in complete 100% agreement with on all topics? I sure don't. 

People have a problem with alpha rolling because it's silly, ineffective, and with the wrong dog can potentially be dangerous - definitely not something to be tried at home, and yet people who don't know any better are going to do it because Cesar does, regardless of the show's disclaimers. THAT'S why people make a big deal about it. And all his dominance stuff is just hooey, he attributes way too much behavior on dominance that has nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's especially bad when he's dealing with a dog that's clearly insecure, fearful, and defensive and he's saying that it's dominant.  



> Do they fail to recognize or disagree with his main ideas of no touch no talk and no eye contact to greet and establish pack structure, Exercise, Dicipline, Affection to divide your time with the dog, .. Rules boundaries limitations to give a dog what is allowed and expected of it.


Well, people don't tend to make a big deal about things they don't have a problem with. But they're not going to shower him with accolades for things like imposing rules and boundaries (hello, NILIF anyone?), because those are not his original ideas and he doesn't get credit for creating them because he didn't. Any decent trainer would suggest the same things, like maybe Dr. Ian Dunbar, a veterinary behaviorist who has been studying animal behavior and training dogs since long before Cesar even came to the US at 21 years old speaking no English.

Oh, and I did read his first book.  It's a very compelling rags to riches story, for sure.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You can beat the dead horse but I'll leave you with this. At first he wanted to become the best dog trainer ever. That was his original goal. You know why hes a "behaviorist" now? Because he would get the crap beat out of him in competition by real trainers who know far more and are far more effective at what they do.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

So is Cesar 'dislike rs' more appropriate.  . I would welcome discussion on some of his theories or particular shows but for someone to say he speaks crap with out quoting him is hating on him. Also putting down his audience is unnecessary. I was specifically addressing Bailif's comment in my post.


Mad lab said


> Do they fail to recognize or disagree with his main ideas of no touch no talk and no eye contact to greet and establish pack structure, Exercise, Dicipline, Affection to divide your time with the dog, .. Rules boundaries limitations to give a dog what is allowed and expected of it.





> (Cesar Millan) doesn't get credit for creating them because he didn't. Any decent trainer would suggest the same things,


Still he coined those phrases. Gotta hand it to him, they are catchy. Nobody packages it like Cesar. We have to agree marketing is important in this day and age. Who wants to watch Ian Dunbar on the telly?? He doesn't have the charisma, enthusiasm and love of dogs that Cesar does imo. 

From Terrierman on Cesar's success


> *The Dog Whisperer has 150 shows in the can*, making it one of the longest running (and most popular) television shows ever.
> 
> *The original Star Trek*, by comparison, had only 79 shows filmed, while Victoria Stilwell's show, "It's Me or the Dog" has a total of 62 shows in the can filmed in the U.S. or the U.K. (as of June 2012), and counting all 4 specials.


- Terrierman's Daily Dose -


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

you need to bond with your dog more instead of all this alpha crap. out of a family of 5, my dog will only bark and nip 2 people. those are the two people that he WANTS to play with. dogs only nip people they are comfortable with. your dog wouldnt go around nipping random strangers. you need to be firm but fair. be unfair and correct the pup for things it doesnt understand and of course it doesnt want to PLAY with you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't even dislike the guy he does way more for forwarding certain things that are important for dog ownership than most trainers are able. I prefer him over Victoria Stillwell and shes almost entirely positive for example.

But there are certain things he is really lacking in like super high energy dogs. Exercise isn't going to help so much because they can go for way longer than you can give them time for if you have a job, for example.

The theories he bases much of his stuff off of is wrong, doesnt mean it isnt useful.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

umm, how does that work? his theories are based on stuff that is
wrong but it's useful.



Baillif said:


> I don't even dislike the guy he does way more for forwarding certain things that are important for dog ownership than most trainers are able. I prefer him over Victoria Stillwell and shes almost entirely positive for example.
> 
> But there are certain things he is really lacking in like super high energy dogs. Exercise isn't going to help so much because they can go for way longer than you can give them time for if you have a job, for example.
> 
> >>>>> The theories he bases much of his stuff off of is wrong, doesnt mean it isnt useful.<<<<< [/QUOTE]


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sorry that wasn't clear. The theory itself is wrong, but actions taken that come out of it are still useful. The rules boundaries limitations part is the biggest one of that. The owner having to step in to correct behaviors that are undesirable is another.

I see Cesar kind of like I do Einstein. Einstein provided us with lots of ideas that turned out to be useful but he was also a proponent of a lot of theories that turned out to be wrong, such as the idea the universe was a fixed size. He is really great at certain things hes good with leash control and as madlab mentioned he does a good job controlling packs of dogs, but this isn't a unique to Cesar kind of thing. 

There are a lot of theories especially in physics that are going to probably be debunked because they don't explain everything but they do explain enough to be useful to predict certain things. Being wrong doesn't mean being useless.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Albert Einstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cesar Millan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is really no comparison, CM achieved much more than Einstein.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If getting women with huge racks is your benchmark yeah probably


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what kind of racks? racks for the hall closet, dish rack
racks for the linen closet, tool rack?



Baillif said:


> If getting women with huge racks is your benchmark yeah probably


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Anybody who saw his special knows exactly what I'm talking about.


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## Sarmatian (May 9, 2013)

The reason that your dog likes your woman more than you, is because your dog likes your woman more than you. 

You are not going to change this by being the alpha unless you take your dog in the wilderness and start killing animals with your bare hands so the both of you can survive for weeks alone. 

Just accept it and please stop watching television.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DoggyPuppy, 

How was your pup raised? Was the breeder a woman or a man? If female, did she have a husband, and did he take an active role in socializing the puppies. 

It is totally possible that your puppy is more comfortable around the girlfriend, tries to engage her in play, etc, because she is more familiar to him by her sex, voice and mannerisms.

It may also be, that your puppy is kind of intimidated by you. Are you the main trainer? How do you correct. Is your puppy's respect due to not being to certain around you, or is it a sign for you to back down a little on how you are communicating/managing/leading your dog? All puppies are different. It doesn't matter if your other dogs were fine with how you talk to them, tone, level of voice, corrections, etc. This puppy is maybe a little softer than those dogs, and what you need to find is a level that is comfortable to both you and the dog. 

A good idea for you might be a set of puppy agility classes. Lots of praise, lots of treats, no negatives. Make it fun. Full body work out. Lots of fun. And in the process you are training the dog and the dog is succeeding in conquering some interesting obstacles. Be careful to ensure it is for puppies. I did this with Joy to build her confidence.

Start all training sessions with something positive and fun. End all training sessions with the dog wanting more, and with something positive and fun. Good luck.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Baillif said:


> I see Cesar kind of like I do Einstein.


:help:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

E = mc^2

Only Einstien didn't even have a calculator. 

I watched a u-tube on the space station. But my dad reminded me that the guys who first walked on the moon did it without computers. They did it all with slide-rules. 

Cesar uses his personal presence and instincts to handle some dog situations. He then thinks about what he did and explains it. That certainly doesn't make him Einstein. 

Though my dad had an English Setter, Pip, who we had Great Expectations for, but he was dumb as a rock, and my dad used to call him Einstein, maybe in hopes that it would rub off.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sarmatian said:


> The reason that your dog likes your woman more than you, is because your dog likes your woman more than you.
> 
> You are not going to change this by being the alpha unless you take your dog in the wilderness and start killing animals with your bare hands so the both of you can survive for weeks alone.
> 
> Just accept it and please stop watching television.


 
:spittingcoffee:


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Dogs don't know the difference between humans and dogs - wrong! Explain why a dog can be dog aggressive and not human aggressive then.


Humans are different from rats only in size. This conception that dogs shouldn't bite humans, vaguely stretching from somewhere from the Bible is false, because humans are the natural prey for the dogs. The matter is training. Your family is your dog's pack, you are his foster parent, and your children are the puppies of the pack. All other calves, cows, kids, humans, dogs, cats, birds - are the potential prey, dogs are the opportunists. Train your dog to attack humans and he will attack them in certain situations.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> humans are the natural prey for the dogs.


What happened to mans best friend???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> Humans are different from rats only in size. This conception that dogs shouldn't bite humans, vaguely stretching from somewhere from the Bible is false, because humans are the natural prey for the dogs. The matter is training. Your family is your dog's pack, you are his foster parent, and your children are the puppies of the pack. All other calves, cows, kids, humans, dogs, cats, birds - are the potential prey, dogs are the opportunists. Train your dog to attack humans and he will attack them in certain situations.


Where do you come up with this stuff?

Do you have a source?

Humans are not prey animals, they are predators if anything. Even lions are weird if they become man-eaters. And tigers will, but usually only weak or injured tigers. I think the reason is because we eat meat. Animals who eat only vegetables are more tasty, and the natural prey for pedators like wolves and lions. 

But that is just a guess. 

I am not a member of my dogs' pack nor do I treat them like we are all the same species. We aren't and they have enough brains to know that.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Humans are not prey animals, they are predators if anything.


Please,...There is nothing in human of a predator. No proper teeth ( our teeth are designed for long chewing, like of a horse), humans have very small eyes, poor sense of vision, small ears and poor sense of hearing, small nose and poor sense of smell, we run slowly. That fact that we are the most omnivorous animals on earth, can digest everything that moves and greens makes us the gobblers of everything and helps to stay the most intelligent ( ihuman intellect comes from food we eat). There are plenty of interesting articles about it even in Google.
A fear of dogs is natural and instinctive to humans, dogs were eating us only 15 000 years ago. The visual image of the wolf is inprinted in human brain from birth, that's why GSD is the most feared of all dogs. We are scared of snakes and we are disgusted with the smell of carrion or feces because this fear and disgust are instinctive. We learned to love dogs through our culture only.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> Humans are different from rats only in size. This conception that dogs shouldn't bite humans, vaguely stretching from somewhere from the Bible is false, because humans are the natural prey for the dogs. The matter is training. Your family is your dog's pack, you are his foster parent, and your children are the puppies of the pack. All other calves, cows, kids, humans, dogs, cats, birds - are the potential prey, dogs are the opportunists. Train your dog to attack humans and he will attack them in certain situations.




I really look forward to your posts, it reaffirms I am not crazy. Hmm wait, maybe I AM the crazy one?

David....I am really trying to understand your posts by reading over and over but it just doesn't come to me.

Where have you learned your theories? It might really help me to understand them.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> David....I am really trying to understand your posts by reading over and over but it just doesn't come to me.


All my knowledge is a popular stuff.

Mirror test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

David Taggart ..


> Humans are different from rats only in size.





> humans have very small eyes, poor sense of vision, small ears and poor sense of hearing, small nose and poor sense of smell, we run slowly.


Speak for your self lol



> dogs were eating us only 15 000 years ago.


DNA of 33,000 year old domesticated dog revealed - Archaeology News from Past Horizons : Archaeology News from Past Horizons

I think your view is slightly skewed on this. You have no proof to back up your claims. Humans evolved to eat meat and veg. We are the best hunters on the planet. We're so good we've wiped many an animal of the face of the earth with dogs as our trusted side kicks.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> All my knowledge is a popular stuff.
> 
> Mirror test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


your knowledge comes from wikipedia?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Where do you come up with this stuff?


My theory for a while has been that this is all a sophisticated test for the next generation of random phrase generator spambots. They're trying to see how long people will continue to accept it as a human.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lions, wolves, tigers for the most part avoid man like the plague because if they threaten us for the most part we kill them. They are and have been under constant evolutionary pressure to not screw with us. Like madlab says we are the best hunter and killer out there we eat more meat as a whole than anything on the planet and are very intolerant of any other major predators in our Eco systems because we hate the competition.

The concept that dogs shouldn't bite humans comes from humans and we've placed evolutionary pressure on them via killing the ones that do and cause serious harm. There's definitely a genetic component to it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

selzer said:


> E = mc^2
> 
> Only Einstien didn't even have a calculator.
> 
> ...


They had computers but they had the calculating power of a basic calculator today. They'd have killed to get a hold of a ti83


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> They had computers but they had the calculating power of a basic calculator today. They'd have killed to get a hold of a ti83


Computers back then may have been too big to take with them into space. I was born in '68 and I remember the rooms they had for the computer, with cooling etc. I remember the huge disks they used before 5" floppies and 3.5" floppies. I worked with an early computer from the 70s that could interface with other machinery through cards and IEEE, they were slow, awkward, big, and not all that powerful. I have programmed in fortran and frankly, I think you would get the answer quicker with a slide rule.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> Please,...There is nothing in human of a predator. No proper teeth ( our teeth are designed for long chewing, like of a horse), humans have very small eyes, poor sense of vision, small ears and poor sense of hearing, small nose and poor sense of smell, we run slowly. That fact that we are the most omnivorous animals on earth, can digest everything that moves and greens makes us the gobblers of everything and helps to stay the most intelligent ( ihuman intellect comes from food we eat). There are plenty of interesting articles about it even in Google.
> A fear of dogs is natural and instinctive to humans, dogs were eating us only 15 000 years ago. The visual image of the wolf is inprinted in human brain from birth, that's why GSD is the most feared of all dogs. We are scared of snakes and we are disgusted with the smell of carrion or feces because this fear and disgust are instinctive. We learned to love dogs through our culture only.


Paleeeze yourself. Prey animals have eyes on the sides of their heads so they can dart at any movement. Our eyes are on the front so we can chase after any movement, as are dogs, wolves, and all the major predators. Our teeth have canines for ripping and tearing, as well as molars to grind and chew, because we are omnivores. Because we are slower than most prey animals, if we did not have an amount of intellect, we would never have been able to capture and prepare the food we eat. 

Dogs chose to ally themselves to humans. Humans were hunting the same kinds of critters and noticed that dogs would herd the prey and pick them off. They noticed other traits that dogs/wolves had as hunters, trackers, etc, and chose to tame and train dogs to use their instincts to help with the hunting and eventually the keeping of livestock and the guarding of the humans and animals. 

Dogs relate to us a whole lot better than you give them credit for. If my dog had to believe I was a dog, and more powerful as a dog than she is, I would be toast. I cannot run as fast or do nearly the damage a dog can with my teeth. So in your model, we would be the lowest ranking members of the pack. 

Thank you, no. I will not pretend I am a member of a dog pack to get my dog to do what I want. That is crazy, and thankfully, totally unnecessary. Do people do this with horses? Do they pretend to be the stallion or lead mare to get horses to do what they want them to do?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Lions, wolves, tigers


love human meat. If they are trained by their parents to hunt humans - they will hunt and eat. Sheer predatory instinct is not enough for hunting and survaval, a kitten or a young dog will die of hunger if he wasn't trained by his parents who train their puppy what to hunt and how to hunt. A pack of stray dogs will hunt and eat humans, there are reports every year.
Indonesian Man Eaten by Starving Pet Dogs

I don't know about other dogs, but grown up GSD doesn't have any respect to humans whatsoever. IMHO.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Do people do this with horses? Do they pretend to be the stallion or lead mare to get horses to do what they want them to do?


It is exactly what you do if you want to place a saddle for a first time.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

my grown up gsd has lots of respect for "his human" (that would be me), and will kiss me profusely but would never eat me. i am pretty positive of that, lolol...

david...whew...those are some theories you've got there, lolol...


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

david, how exactly does one pretend to be a stallion or lead mare (in order to place that saddle for the first time)???

seriously. how does one do that?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I wasn't there but Apollo 11: The computers that put man on the moon

In any case humans have eaten humans in dire enough circumstances, or in the case of cannibals just for laughs. The idea people shouldn't eat other people was a human created concept too. There are tons of dogs afraid of people just like there are people afraid of dogs. I kind of forget the point in all of this. What were we talking about again?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> david, how exactly does one pretend to be a stallion or lead mare (in order to place that saddle for the first time)???


This man's methods are based solely on his knowledge of horse body language. You have to speak horse language to your horse in order to train him "Sit!" and many other commands.
Nevzorov, Hempfling, Resnick, Mitzlaff … and Pip horsesandhumans.com/blog
If you wish to be a good dog trainer - you have to speak the language of a dog, like you are a dog yourself, not relying on his intelligence and ability to grasp what you want.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Thats horse crap. Marker trainers establish a language with their dogs. Yes, good, free, you ready and all done aren't dog words, but they learn to associate it with events and actions. Everything is coming full circle now. David's on the moon, someone get him a slide rule.


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## PhoenixGuardian (Jul 10, 2013)

Oh my word...
Some of this stuff is just insane. 
Why do wild animals, who have been trained by their parents to be opportunists, generally run from humans? Because there is a deep, bred in fear of mankind, dating back for centuries. they know that humans are smarter and generally respect us (I ALWAYS with EVERYTHING say generally, typically etc. Because there are exceptions to every rule, just so everyone knows what I am saying).
Dogs approached humans, by God's design, and sought out the bond. Not searching for something other than an easier way of getting food. People cannot eat bones and other parts of prey, so they were left behind. dogs began to scavange what humans left behind, learning to stay close, and yet, respectful, because of the way that humans could hunt, unlike many predators, humans used weapons, things they could throw, things they could stab with, without getting too close. Yes, dogs did attack people, and still do when desperate, but if you look closer, are these dogs ever in their right minds? Very rarely, and then, only because man has turned them into what they are by abuse. 
If people are looking at Wikipedia for all of their information, they may want to look again. I spent years researching wolves, wolf hierarchy and packs. I would be the last one to claim to be an expert, but I do know how this works. If you want one really good website on wolf hierarchy, here's a link Wolf Country, information and education site about wolves
As for the horse aspect, its the exact same with dogs, and just like with dogs, they are no fools. they know that we are not a bigger, better badder alpha, they obey because they WANT to. Dogs and horses (and nearly every other pet) know that they can hurt people if they choose, but they choose not to. Why? Because we give them order, and most of the time, fair leadership. All an animal is looking for is a fair leader, not an Alpha who is looking to bite them any time they screw up, but someone who is unafraid of giving fair punishment, and someone who supplies their needs, and protects them.
Thats what its always been about, you can agree or disagree, whatever you pick, its fine by me.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

katieliz said:


> david, how exactly does one pretend to be a stallion or lead mare (in order to place that saddle for the first time)???
> 
> seriously. how does one do that?



Well, if you are pretending to be the stallion, first you vocalize a lot. Loudly "NEIGH!!!" and then softly, "neigh". You do this until your horse turns it's body and presents it's hiney. At that time, you carefully nip along it's body until you get to it's neck. Then you grab ahold......wait...at some point you'll have to have a saddle in your arms. Maybe this is a two person job....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Looooooooooool


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> I wasn't there but Apollo 11: The computers that put man on the moon
> 
> In any case humans have eaten humans in dire enough circumstances, or in the case of cannibals just for laughs. The idea people shouldn't eat other people was a human created concept too. There are tons of dogs afraid of people just like there are people afraid of dogs. I kind of forget the point in all of this. What were we talking about again?


Ok, they had some crappy computers, but the brought their slide rules along. There were no calculators. They had a computer that was slow and limited for precision in location, but they used their slide rules for anything that might require a calculator.

Neat slide rule display with Neil Armstrong's and other astronauts slide rules. 
Slide Rule Still Rules


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd def want to bring one along when someone straps you to a giant glorified bottle rocket you want multiple systems of redundancy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Thats horse crap. Marker trainers establish a language with their dogs. Yes, good, free, you ready and all done aren't dog words, but they learn to associate it with events and actions. Everything is coming full circle now. David's on the moon, someone get him a slide rule.





Lilie said:


> Well, if you are pretending to be the stallion, first you vocalize a lot. Loudly "NEIGH!!!" and then softly, "neigh". You do this until your horse turns it's body and presents it's hiney. At that time, you carefully nip along it's body until you get to it's neck. Then you grab ahold......wait...at some point you'll have to have a saddle in your arms. Maybe this is a two person job....



I thank you both. This thread has been the most enjoyable for quite a while. Not sure which of these made me laugh more, but I would nominate them both for post of the year.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Lilie won the thread I'd concede no contest


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