# Clicker Training?



## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

I was just wondering what your experiences with clicker training is and if you liked it. For those of you who don't do clicker trainer, why? I am just wondering because I have heard very different things about clicker training and I was wondering what you thought about it. I didn't do clicker training with Ivy but more and more people I know are starting to clicker train their dogs.

MODS...If I am posting this in the wrong section please move. 

Thanks!


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

I have to say, I was a bit skeptical of clicker training at first, but I've taken both my shepherds through clicker classes and now I absolutely love it. Sometimes it can seem a little tedious, especially because there are little to no corrections. But the clicker classes really strengthened the bond between me and my dogs. The biggest benefit: my dogs respond to commands much more consistently because now they know EXACTLY what I want when I give a command. You can use the clicker to first teach, then refine, every command you use. Once they associate click with treat, you can teach them just about anything! Except maybe how to do dishes...


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I use a clicker in my training, but I'm not sure if I really do "Clicker Training" as a method (I don't believe in methods, anyway) and many clicker trainers are something like a sect I do not feel part of. I do use corrections when the dog is older enough and the exercise is learned and I use other sounds that make the reward (a "gut") beside the clicker itself. I also do not use only instrumental conditioning, I start there, but I like to go beyond.

That been said... The clicker is an invaluable tool to mark precise behaviours. It is also very helpful to wean the dog of many clues we inadvisedly give when training, postures, gestures, etc. It is also very good when you need to reward something you can't see as a second person can mark with the clicker and then you can give the reward or to mark the behaviour at distance. And is the best for novice handlers to communicate with their dogs.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

clicker/marker training is great, I've used it and will use it again, however eventualy you will have to use some form of correction especialy when the puppers get older and test their limits.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'll admit, I wasn't too keen on clicker training when I started it in November 2006. But now I'm SOLD!! I know I wouldn't be where I am now with my rescue dog had we used other methods. I plan on using clicker training from now on with all my future dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't use a clicker, but I use the same principles - lure, mark, reward or mark and reward when the dog offers the behavior. I saw "yes".


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## lougatzo (Jan 25, 2006)

Not a fan. What happens when you don't have a clicker? I always have my voice.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

the theory is the same, it is to mark an event.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Poster: Murphy-Elperroguapo
> Subject: Re: Clicker Training?
> 
> I'll admit, I wasn't too keen on clicker training when I started it in November 2006. But now I'm SOLD!! I know I wouldn't be where I am now with my rescue dog had we used other methods. I plan on using clicker training from now on with all my future dogs.


Good for you for being open minded enough to try something new. And then 'bite the bullet' to learn to do it well!!! Isn't amazing how the more we learn about training, and the better we get at it, the faster our dogs learn and more they enjoy it!

Hey, the term 'Old dogs can learn new tricks' isn't just about dogs! I'm telling you, 100% of the people I know who had a great instructor to explain the clicker, and then did it properly, are converts once they see how well OUR DOGS do! And the added fact that our timing for praise and correction shows up either as great or (more likely) late late late, is something the clicker helps fix.

Fact is, I also can now use my voice as a marker as well as a clicker. But it's not as good and doesn't work as well. Better than nothing, but not as well. No matter how I try, I know I sometime get tone into my voice (either happy or not) while the clicker is ALWAY just a neutral marker.

Those with open minds that want to see why the clicker really works, look at this video of an abused fearful mule learning from a session, it's amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCtrtbdXkVw


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: lougatzoNot a fan. What happens when you don't have a clicker? I always have my voice.


Most of us who clicker train also train a marker word that we can use when we don't have a clicker on hand. Clicker works best for training new behaviors but the marker works just fine when working old behaviors or if you have no clicker with you.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Originally, I thought the idea of clicker training was silly.. for flower-power, feel-good 'pet' people only! Not for people who had workingline GSDs with strong personalities! How wrong I was..

I showed up at a Schutzhund club, and there he was-- a smart, savvy dog trainer shaping and marking behaviors with young dogs.. making the dogs WANT to get it right. The dogs being worked were totally off lead in a big grassy area, but wow, were they MOTIVATED-- and LEARNING! Okay.. maybe there is more to this, I thought.







I listened, I learned. Trying it with my dog opened up a whole new world for us. I am so relieved I tried it!

I initially just clicked and treated.. to take 'me' (and my worried, frustrated, excitable emotions) out of the picture for my dog.... then, I began pairing my praise word with the clicker, and still treating....... then, in time, I began clicking with my praise word-- and 1/2 the time using a treat, 1/2 the time using a chest-scritch-lovin' for my dog. My dog now anticipates, and grins when he hears my praise word, throwing himself sideways into my thigh, paw raised for me to scritch under his armpit.









Clicker training can also say something to a dog: We are working. Be calm. No wild, crazy praise will happen. Just work, get rewards, work, get rewards.. here is our rhythm. This calm concept helps instill calm in new situations: at the vets, at an outdoor street fair, anyplace busy that you want the dog to learn calm in.

LOVE clicker training!! But yep, I do need to use some corrections with this very strong-minded dog. Very few, but some. That's our life now.. when we wanna tighten training, we clicker train. Wanna learn something new, we clicker train. Wanna work on calm in a new busy situation... clicker train!


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## BigDaddy (Apr 29, 2008)

I ordered Karen Pryor's Clicker Training.
My puppy is not quite ready for training,
but I have been trying the clicker with a 
neighbor's dog. She is responding very well
to it! I have been setting the puppy up for
future clicker training, by giving her a treat
only after a click. They love the clicker!



BD


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

I like using the clicker for positional behaviors. My best results were for "look" (or "watch me"). I use other training methods, too, but clicker training is definitely one of the tools in my toolbox.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BigDaddyI ordered Karen Pryor's Clicker Training.
> My puppy is not quite ready for training,
> but I have been trying the clicker with a
> neighbor's dog. She is responding very well
> ...


Actually if you go back to Karen's Pryor site, they have quite a bit on puppy training with a clicker. May want to check it out.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Everett54 is right, yet another great thing about using the clicker is it works crazy well for even an 8 week old puppy! All happy, fun, treats. Just have to remember to keep the sessions very short. But you can have them thru out the day.

This puppy is ONLY 6 weeks old! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4wG8q0DXbA

7 week old GSD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GMpTTEo3Y4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9QCXhL1k this is a 10 week old Lab that's been clicker trained!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIHDwnK6DOw


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## BigDaddy (Apr 29, 2008)

I will revisit the book now!

Thanks!!


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## jmom288 (Jun 11, 2008)

hi, i really like the clicker training. my cocker was trained this way and have begun using it with our gsd. she is 11 months old and had some training, but i would like to teach her more. alot of people don't like it, because it is click and treat. after a while, you don't have to treat, just click and then good....they usually get it after a few weeks. good luck


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## jmom288 (Jun 11, 2008)

your pet is absolutely adorable, markings are great.....


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## assortedagility (Jun 21, 2008)

I do clicker train. But I am not a 100% "purely positive" clicker trainer. I don't believe in that, particularly because a purely positive trainer does not exist. 

I always use the least aversive methods first. If they do not respond after given time and consistency, you try something new - usually something mildly more aversive. 

I love clicker training particularly because it allows the dog to THINK freely on its own and OFFER behaviors. It isn't obeying out of fear of correction, but rather because the dog WANTS to. It is so fantastic to see a dog thinking on his own and truly enjoying training with you.


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## jdsd21 (Jun 3, 2008)

Clicker Training is great. I have used clicker lightly in the past to teach my boys basic commands. Along with the click, I reward either with my voice or with a treat as to ensure that they aren’t dependent on the click. Just recently have I begun using the clicker in a more expanded roll. With my 11 month old Max going through his adolescence, I have began using the clicker to mark every good action that he does to show him how I expect him to act around inside the house (this stems from him not having good house manners the last few months). For example, when I am sitting on the couch watching tv and I see max lay down, I want him to know that I like that, so I click and say “good”. On the other hand, if Max and my other boy Hartwin are getting rowdy, I will command them to stop, get their focus and have them sit, and lay down, using the clicker to mark each positive action (focus, sit, and lay down). I have seen some noticeable results in just 3 days of using the clicker for these actions. For you all who have far more experience then me using the clicker, is there any reason why I shouldn’t use the clicker to mark good actions around the house, without being in a formal training session or is this an effective way of shaping boundaries around the house? 

I have also begun using the clicker in my daily obedience training with my boys. Just last week, while working on the focus command using only treats and a ball for the grand reward, I would get a successful action out of Max and throw him the ball as his reward. He would burn off and fetch it and run half way back to me and drop it. It was hard to ever get him to return the ball all the way to me; this would put a damper on our training session, having to go get him, refocus him, etc. After heading the advice from fellow forum members on how I could get Max to run all the way back to me, using the 2 ball throwing method (thank you all for that advice) and a clicker to mark his successful return, I have Max fetching the ball and returning it without even commanding him to do it. He now understands what I expect from him when I throw a ball to him. This is just a small example, but in my opinion illustrates the progress that can be made in a short period of time using the clicker.

Maggierose, great video of the Mule. That session was 5 minutes long, and they got the mule to do something it otherwise wouldn’t have done without force; and it wasn’t only the one time that the Mule completed the action, he repeated it. I am definitely a beginner in training; both my boys are my first, so I am open and objective to other methods. But from what I have seen using the clicker, I am impressed and sold on its benefits…


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote:Along with the click, I reward either with my voice or with a treat as to ensure that they aren’t dependent on the click.


Hello, jdsd21 -

Dogs don't actually rely on the click when properly trained. They rely on what comes after the click, the reward. Whether it it is food, toy or voice/attention, a reward should always follow the click. 

As behaviors are learned, the click begins to be faded out. Eventually, the click and treat is just rarely used as a reinforcement. 

I am happy to see you are using it in expanding ways. It is sometimes difficult to help students to see the value of click/reward after basic commands are proofed. However, that is the greatest time because the 'cause and effect' has already been established.

The more advance or difficult a behavior, the more reason to break it down into small steps and click/reward. I love watching my dogs think - it is amazing how this method creates a team!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I'm telling you, 100% of the people I know who had a great instructor to explain the clicker, and then did it properly, are converts once they see how well OUR DOGS do!


This has been my experience too. And the converse is true - the people I've talked to who don't like clicker training or think it doesn't work without exception have had poor trainers and/or have not understood how to apply the technique correctly. 

I'm not a purely positive trainer either, I use corrections when I feel they're necessary but I will always start with reward based training and I haven't found anything that beats the clicker in allowing clarity in my communication with the dogs. As others have mentioned, clicker trained dogs understand the game and they are excited and motivated to figure out what you want them to do - there's no compulsion, they _want_ to do what you want. And, for me, the bigger benefit in learning to train with a clicker was the increased awareness _I _got from seeing how the dogs work and how they process information. I'm now much more attuned to just how many "stubborn" and "misbehaving" dogs simply don't understand what you want and when they aren't doing whatever it is correctly, that's a handler failure not a dog failure. The look of profound relief on the dog's face when you use the clicker and they get it is both wonderful and heartbreaking.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: And the converse is true - the people I've talked to who don't like clicker training or think it doesn't work without exception have had poor trainers and/or have not understood how to apply the technique correctly.


OR modify the 'clicker training' cause they think their way is better, and when the training breaks down blames the darn clicker!!! 

Learn the methodology and why it works. Why clicking the EXACT behavior and realizing the sound is the bridge for the reward (and a reward FOR THE DOG and in the DOG'S eyes) is key and why it works or falls apart.

It's all well and good that we may THINK a verbal praise SHOULD be good enough as a reward for our dogs. The fact is for pretty much all dogs, learning something new, it is NOT. Just more of the blah blah blah we are always flapping our lips at the dogs during the day.

The click sound is different, only means one thing, THAT WAS BRILLIANT. Since we are NOT supposed to be talking in initial training there should be NO verbals to muck up and confuse the training. And quickly getting the treat to the dog means only one thing, you are now rewarded for being BRILLIANT! 

So now the dog can't wait to try it again. and again and again and again.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Couldn't agree more! 

I can't tell you how many people I've seen doing everything from clicking after they give the treat to using the clicker to call the dog.









But used correctly it is an incredibly powerful tool. I was skeptical at first myself - after all, the verbal praise/food treats/collar correction combo I'd been using for years worked fine, how could this be so much better? But after taking my first class, I was convinced. 

Clicker training (and I really do prefer the clicker over the voice marker for the reasons MRL says - your voice is so ubiquitous in the dog's life and the clicker is both neutral and distinct) is simply remarkable in its clarity. More than working for the treats (which of course they get) I feel like the dogs are working for the joy of playing the game and understanding the right answer. So much of a dog's life is a guessing game, trying to figure out what we want, why we're happy, why we're mad, and the clicker cuts across the language barrier and gives them direct and intelligible feedback. They always look so pleased that we've finally decided to be clear about what we want!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Is there a directory of clicker trainers anywhere? 

I don't feel comfortable doing it on my own. The little I did-I had a couple of dogs who really responded. Food motivated Bruno and head injury Mariele! Bella got up and walked out of the room.







She basically said







that







!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Good question. I don't know. I do recommend a class though. Even when I understood the principle there were things I wouldn't have thought of and new ways of doing things I thought I knew how to do. No substitute for a good class. Maybe local recommendations?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> > Quote: And the converse is true - the people I've talked to who don't like clicker training or think it doesn't work without exception have had poor trainers and/or have not understood how to apply the technique correctly.
> ...


I had read (Karen Pryor?) that there is something about the tone of the clicker that activates a different part of the brain than the voice does. I have found it to be true with Indy. She just lights up when she hears the sound -- it's so different than the verbal mark. 

And when I first got Max, and he would listen to *nothing* verbal, the clicker was the only way I could teach 'watch me'.

When Indy was learning how to do the weave poles in agility, I remember that darn clicker was only thing fast enough to mark, and that didn't pull her off the poles.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

I just ordered a clicker, just for the heck of it. I get the jist of it, but have never tried it. Forget "trainers" in my area - there are none worth using.

So - can anyone recommend a website or reading material on the topic? I'd like to try it as an additional tool for marking behavior.

Thanks!


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

http://www.karenpryor.com

http://www.clickertraining.com

Either one will take you to the site of the clicker pioneer.


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANIs there a directory of clicker trainers anywhere?
> 
> I don't feel comfortable doing it on my own. The little I did-I had a couple of dogs who really responded. Food motivated Bruno and head injury Mariele! Bella got up and walked out of the room.
> 
> ...


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> I had read (Karen Pryor?) that there is something about the tone of the clicker that activates a different part of the brain than the voice does.


See, it's statements like that that make me realize that most, if not all, trainers are just selling snake oil. 

I'm pretty sure that a sound wave striking the eardrum of a dog reaches the same part of the brain, regardless of its tonal qualities or volume.

I suppose you could say that when you hear an emergency vehicle siren, it activates a different part of your brain than, say, the radio station you're listening to - but that is nonsense. It is simply a more alerting sound to which you have conditioned yourself to provide your immediate attention. The parts of the brain "activated" by sounds don't change with the sound - they change with the conditioned meaning assigned to the sound.

I still think clickers are right up there with painting your dogs nails, but I have one and I'll see what it can be used for.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:The parts of the brain "activated" by sounds don't change with the sound - they change with the conditioned meaning assigned to the sound.


My guess is that that's what she meant - the brain is activated in a different way than with a vocal reinforcer because the association with the click sound has only one meaning. No matter how clear or distinct you are with a "yes" or whatever, that association is going to be muddier for the dog because of all the other vocal commands we give and just general speech in the dog's life. Vocal reinforcers can work but I really think clickers work better. 



> Quote: I still think clickers are right up there with painting your dogs nails, but I have one and I'll see what it can be used for.


Used correctly (and that really takes at least one, if not a couple classes to get the hang of) clicker training will blow your mind. In 18 years of training dogs, I've never seen any technique that works as well or as fast. 

Used incorrectly, as is WAY too often the case, it's a worthless piece of metal and plastic.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

pupresq - I'll take your endorsement. Would that we had access to a trainer, but alas - no. If I can't read it or watch a video it doesn't exist.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

LedZep, while I understand your incredulity regarding the way the clicker affects the brain (I HAVE had some tell me that studies have been done that show it actually stimulates the brain differently, but I have my doubts as no one was able to show me proof), I can tell you straight out that if you don't get good results with clicker-style training it will be 100% your fault and not the fault of the method.

The concept of marking a behavior just as it happens and then following that mark with a reward absolutely works. I've used it on hundreds of dogs and other animals (including cats, horses, and a wolf). The times that people run into problems is when they either get impatient, can't get the timing right, fail to reward properly during the training phase, fail to gradually increase the criteria, and/or fail to break things down in a way that the dog can understand. Clicker-style training is a fantastic tool for teaching and shaping behaviors.

The training of dogs is mostly limited by the lack of imagination and ability of the humans. While the reward may differ depending on the dog (I've had dogs that worked great for petting and playtime, others work for toys, others work for food, and for one the only thing that was truly motivating was the opportunity to go outside and pee on bushes), the concepts of positive reinforcement are sound. People are the ones that screw it all up.

Good luck with your clicker. You'll probably have better luck with it if you avoid thinking things like "clickers are right up there with painting your dogs nails". That's an absolutely useless and inaccurate comparison.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

A class would definitely be best because there are several aspects that aren't obvious if you've never done it but if there isn't one, there isn't one. I'm sure folks on this board could recommend some good videos if it's something you get interested in. Bottom line is there are lots of different ways to train dogs and many of them work but the degree to which they're effective, the speed at which the dog learns, and the enjoyment of the process vary a lot. For my money, clicker training is the best hands down. As Melanie says, the only limit to training is the trainer's ability and effort they put in. The dogs learn super fast, they retain well, and they absolutely love it!


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

If LedZep goes to the Karen Pryor websites I linked previously, he will find free videos and lots of good advise.

I don't try to convert people any more - I've seen so many people sit in our seminar on the first class night with arms crossed and head shaking, just to be the first a few weeks later to comment on "smart their dog is and how fast he learns."

Clicker training done right speaks for itself. Done wrong or half heartedly it will never work.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

http://www.jjdog.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=2CATClickandTreatTraining

I really enjoyed the Gary Wilkes seminar I attended years ago. perhaps his dvd shows how to use the clicker. I can't give a review as I haven't seen the DVD.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> See, it's statements like that that make me realize that most, if not all, trainers are just selling snake oil.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that a sound wave striking the eardrum of a dog reaches the same part of the brain, regardless of its tonal qualities or volume.


No. I don't think so. Functional MRIs of humans show that the human brain processes different sounds differently. Regular language is processed one way, and the brain lights up consistently pretty much no matter whom you're scanning, as long as they're normally functioning human beings. The sound of a subject's own child's laughter, however, lights up a slightly expanded part of the brain. And classical music, for example, lights up additionally different parts of the brain. 

Just because everything goes in through the same ear doesn't mean it's all processed the same. 

Clickers are assigned a specific meaning before actual training ever starts. The dog is taught this sound has this meaning. Pavlov's dogs were taught Bell = Food and they began to drool. That isn't the language-processing center of the brain at work there, even though it's all going in the same ear. I presume the clicker does something similar, based on how dogs react to clickers. I don't know if FMRIs have been done on dogs with clickers. I actually would be surprised if they haven't been. (I haven't done any research on this. I'll defer to the biologist onsite). 

But don't assume it's snake oil.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Clickers not only help speed training up, they can also help solve problems, too! "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons is great.









However, there are some VERY strongminded, dominant dogs one would never want to do "purely positive" clickertraining with. These loving, pushy tyrants turn things around completely: PushyDog thinks YOU are clicking/treating because THEY sat to demand it. Yes, you may in short term get the behavior you want, but when he thinks he is controlling the situation, and you, (regardless of an NILIF done at home) disaster results. Add to this fact that these dogs see you as their portable foodbowl, and can become protective of that. ("Bucky's on-leash aggression just developed out of nowhere"... etc.)

Marker training is good for all dogs. Pureply positive, like all methods, needs to be suited to the dog itself. Not easy to see this when everybody in class has a Lab, a Border collie, a Cocker, a Golden, a Sheltie... or a more mellow GSD.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Appreciate the good comments. I will do some research. Unfortunately, I live the the most trainer-baron part of the country I guess.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Unfortunately, I live the the most trainer-baron part of the country I guess.


LedZep, not true. 

We are very blessed here in the northeast to have tons of trainers in the area, mostly within an hour drive. 

Delaware is near Philly and there are SCADS of dog trainers in that area. I listen to stories from people who live in some states and there is literally nothing closer than 3 to 4 hours. Heck, I can be in NY, or NJ, or PA, or DE (maybe MD) by 4 hours!!

http://www.clickertraining.com/events/ is a great resource for trainers/clinics.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You think where you are is bad, try Montana. I can count the dog trainers in the Billings area on ONE HAND. We have Petsmart, one clicker trainer, 2 traditional trainers, and one agility trainer. The next closest clicker trainer is 2 hours away.

I was a clicker skeptic at first but I'm sold now.







I love it! Ris learns so fast with it and really enjoys training. The smile on her face when we're working together is totally worth it.


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## wesleyb (Jun 11, 2008)

Don't use one. I am a very forgetful person and i would forget such a thing like that and good girl works just as good as the little click.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BlacknRedDon't use one. I am a very forgetful person and i would forget such a thing like that and good girl works just as good as the little click.


That is actually one of my concerns. Having those, "gee too bad I don't have a clicker with me or we could do some training" times. Also, the fact that it seems you have to carry a 50 lb. bag of treats with you at all times.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

You can use toys and pets as rewards for clicking. You don't HAVE to use food all the time. As your dog understands the behavior, you want to wean of reinforcing it 100% of the time anyway.

Plus, as I mentioned before, most of us have a marker word that we use in place of the clicker in case we don't have one with us. That way we CAN train even if we don't have a clicker or treats on us. It's just that the clicker makes it easier for our dogs to 'get it.'


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Also the treats you give are tiny. I don't train with any bigger a bag than I used to do when I used food as a lure. It's a little pouch thing that clips onto my belt or waist band.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote: Having those, "gee too bad I don't have a clicker with me or we could do some training" times. Also, the fact that it seems you have to carry a 50 lb. bag of treats with you at all times











Ah - here we go again - spoken as only someone with no real clue about clicker training can.

Clickers are only for new commands and are quickly faded out - as are treats.

Training can be done anytime and clicker trainers learn to take advantage of every opportunity. One stick of string cheese can last for literally dozens of treats. I don't believe they weigh 50 lbs.

If you don't think you can learn something new that your dog will also enjoy, don't do it. But try not to make uninformed statements. There may be others reading with more open minds.


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BlacknRedDon't use one. I am a very forgetful person and i would forget such a thing like that and good girl works just as good as the little click.


thats one of the reasons I decided not to do clicker training with Ivy. I really wish I would of though. Like Patti and others said it does make training faster, but Ivy is a fast learner so I really didn't even think about it (clicker training) until after the fact.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: i would forget such a thing like that and good girl works just as good as the little click.


Not true.

Though CLEARLY dogs get trained, and trained well without using the clicker. I no longer try to use failures on MY part as an excuse not to learn a new method.

If I find it hard to remember the clicker to train, well I just need to remember. If I find my timing is poor with the clicker, then I need to get better timing. Cause if I can't get the short sharp IMMEDIATELY click sound done cause of my poor timeing to mark a behavior.... I know darn well my 'good girl' as a marker will be INCREDIABLY late. 

The thing is, using the clicker is only for NEW behaviors and teaching new things with the dog. You gradually fade it and the more sloppy 'good girls' for a dog who already knows what's what is just fine. 

For good or bad, our voices DO have inflection. Happy, mad, unsure............... the clicker does NOT. Absolulely neutral, means absolutely 1 thing always. YOU were just brilliant in that millisec of behavior, and now you WILL get a reward.

What Clicker Training Isn't 



> Quote: 7) A word, ("good" "yes" "ready") works just as well as the clicker. -- No. There are still some people who seem to have an allergy to clickers, even though they know how well they work. Having used both clickers and words, several thousand times, I can assure you that the difference between a clicker and a word is easily observable. The essence of this method is using a precisely timed signal to mark good behavior. Words are far less efficient as "behavior markers" than a crisp, quick sound, like a metallic click. This does not mean that clicker trainers always use a clicker in every training situation. Next month we will look at the way the clicker works, and why it is not always the best,or only tool for the job.


 Why Can't I Just Use My Voice 

I decided a long time ago, for me to refuse to learn a new way to train or a new method cause it was too hard for me................... isn't the way to go. If it helps my dog, benefits my dog, is clearer to my dog...........then clearly dog class will not just be about training MY DOG, but I've got my work to do also.

But that's me!!!!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

While I think that the actual use of a clicker is optional, the CONCEPTS behind clicker training are absolutely solid and proven time after time by numerous trainers. 

The click is a very quick and distinctive sound. The problem with using your voice is that IF you choose to use your voice, you need to use a short quick word/sound that you don't typically use in everyday conversation. I choose to use "YESSS!" but in a tone/inflection completely different from when I say "yes" in normal conversation. For me, it has worked every bit as good as a clicker (and I've used a clicker to train some behaviors because I want to be open to the different styles of +R training). I will say (not boasting, just clarifying) that I have very good timing with word or clicker and that does help tremendously. And using a distinct short sound also helps.

I discourage my students from using phrases like "good girl" for the reasons stated above. It's too long of a phrase and is also often repeated at other times when it probably won't be followed by a reward. To be truly effective, you have to always follow the word/sound with a reward and so you can't use a word/phrase that is used casually.

There are only a couple of things that I find awkward about the clicker. If you're working one-on-one with your dog, the dog isn't sensitive about the clicking sound, and you have proper timing and proper use of rewards, you WILL have success. Plain and simple. But if your dog is sensitive to the click, it can limit the dog's willingness to work. If you're working in a group setting, dogs may associate another click with a behavior (saw this happen just the other day with one of my fellow trainers - she was having problems with her malinois wanting to jump up during heeling, and a handler sitting on the side happened to click her dog JUST as the malinois leaped up - and it was obvious that the malinois thought the click was for him). 

And the other problem with clicker training is that some people have enough trouble handling the leash, dog, treats, etc. without adding a clicker. For those people, I do suggest starting with a vocal word/sound and then when they become more comfortable with things, add in the clicker so that they get the full experience.

The concept of "reward" is often bashed by people who don't really understand (or want to understand) the concept of clicker training or positive reinforcement training. I've never carried 50# of treats. Yes, I use treats, but I also use toys and praise and petting and letting my dogs pee in the bushes and letting my dogs go out the door, etc. "Reward" is simply whatever the dog may want, and some rewards are of higher value than others. Good handlers know their dogs well and can list, in order of value, numerous rewards that they can use with each of their dogs. And when you have different dogs (especially different breeds) then the rewards may very well be different. What reinforces a behavior in my GSD's may not work at all for my chows.

I think everyone should give clicker training an honest try. If it doesn't work, then you're doing it wrong. A fun way to start is to get a handful of treats (or put them on a shelf/table near you), put a cardboard box in the middle of the floor, bring your dog in, sit in a chair near the table/shelf and just click and toss a treat every time the dog goes near or shows interest in the box. At first you click/treat for going near, then when the dog has obviously caught on to the idea of being near the box, wait and click/treat for sniffing or touching the box - when that idea is obvious because the dog keeps repeating it, wait and click/treat for the dog pawing at the box or moving the box or something that shows an escalation of the behavior. Try not to talk to your dog through this - sit back, be patient and observant, and remember to CLICK as soon as your dog does something you want.

The "training" done here is mostly for YOU so that you can start to get down timing and to see how the click/treat concept works. The reason we usually use treats is because the dog can gulp it down and then go back to "work". 

It's actually a lot of fun and people are usually surprised at how quickly their dogs start offering behaviors - and surprised at how enthusiastic the behaviors are!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## firefightrsflame (Jul 27, 2008)

Newbie here has a question -lol- I have been reading up on clicker training and I'm very interested in trying this method whenever I do get my GSD. After reading this thread, I will need to find a clicker specific trainer in my area to initially train my pup? Or do I need a class first and then the class with my dog?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

firefightrsflame, WHAT a good question!!!!! 

If you find a good trainer using the clicker (and many puppy classes have added it to their bag of tricks because it's value is so great) you AND your pup/dog will be going together. Some classes have only the human attend the first day of the session, but normally after that it's both dog and handler.

If you have the chance to supplement your learning prior to classes with all the reading mentioned on the sites previously, you will be WAY ahead of most of the other people in class. Because, though you certainly don't need to be a Rocket Scientist for this to work well, it IS a completely different philosophy from the old time training methods. So you'll understand quicker and catch on faster when you do get in class with the pup in front of you because you already 'get it' and aren't having to relearn all you THOUGHT you knew about training animals.

Truthfully, if you do read up and feel fairly confident, you can have that clicker/treats ready to work with your pup much earlier than you would go to classes. It would HELP if you had a clicker instructor lined up for maybe a private or so to help start off on the right track, but after that you can easily progress on your own and really show off when classes start!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never used clicker training. i never really understood it. i just don't get it. when you clicker train do you ever stop using the clicker. in my puppy classes they were clicking away. the trainer told me i didn't have to clicker train. i was glad she said that because the class was really good. i like giving my dog a nice pat or treat or praise when he does something. sometimes i praise, pat and treat. i try to mix it up. if i were going to clicker train i would find a trainer who uses that method and take a class or two without the puppy being there so i could learn to use it. you're dog is going to be nicely trained whether you click or don't click. there's a fringe benefit awarded when you clicker train. you become a sharp shooter with the remotes. (tv, stereo, alarms, etc.)


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi've never used clicker training. i never really understood it. i just don't get it. when you clicker train do you ever stop using the clicker. in my puppy classes they were clicking away. the trainer told me i didn't have to clicker train. i was glad she said that because the class was really good. i like giving my dog a nice pat or treat or praise when he does something. sometimes i praise, pat and treat. i try to mix it up. if i were going to clicker train i would find a trainer who uses that method and take a class or two without the puppy being there so i could learn to use it.


I think that sometimes it may be challenging to learn in a group environment, but I think that a trainer should make sure everyone understand how it works. 
Here is a summary of what I tell my clients:

CLICK=TREAT

-Next we will do an exercise to introduce the clicker to the dog so he understands that CLICK=TREAT. The handler holds the clicker behind his/her back clicks than treats. I am looking for the dog to start responding to the click by looking for a treat. Usually dogs will pick it up pretty quickly during that session. If your dog is getting it when you click he will probably look to the hand with the clicker and then to the other side for a treat.

-After that we work on focus with the clicker. Basically holding both hands with clicker and treat behind your back. Your dog should be in a sit facing you. He will get a little frustrated and looking around for a cue, treat, or click. I tell clients to just say their dog's name and usually he will look up. You want eye contact. If he does give you eye contact, CLICK than TREAT and say good 'watch'. Once he performs the eye contact appx. 5-10 times, I start using the command 'watch'.

-Clicker training is an excellent way to teach basic and advanced commands. A big benefit of clicker training is being able to capture behaviors. That is, if your dog looks at you and gives you eye contact while you are sitting on your couch, you can click and treat to "capture" that. You can also do that with some fun things like head tilts.

Once the dog learns the behavior, you should phase out the clicker like you would treats, using it everyother time or so, and then not at all. But the clicker is great for sharpening commands if the get a little sloppy later.

Sorry for such a long post but I love the clicker and wanted to clarify some things to help anyone that is interested but isn't sure how it works.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

I really enjoy reading all the "if you don't do exactly what I do, then you are an unenlightened idiot" posts all over this forum. 

If I didn't have a (relatively) open mind, I would not be here reading posts or posting questions. Some of these questions may be posed in the form of expressed doubts or concerns, but they are questions nonetheless.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote: do you ever stop using the clicker. i like giving my dog a nice pat or treat or praise when he does something. sometimes i praise, pat and treat. i try to mix it up.


I think you may be thinking of the click as the reward. The click marks the exact point the command was properly executed. The reward then follows - treat or toy, depending on the dog.

As far as carrying the clicker around forever - no it is a very temporary tool. The clicker is used to help train new behaviors or commands only. When the dog hears the click it knows exactly what you want (when introduced and used correctly.) Lack of the click and reward just means a do over.

As the dog learns, the clicks are sequential, then random, then faded. When the dog really knows the behavior the clicker is no longer necessary.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepI really enjoy reading all the "if you don't do exactly what I do, then you are an unenlightened idiot" posts all over this forum.


Um, I think you're misinterpreting what people are trying to say. What *I* got out of the posts is that if clicker training isn't working for you, you're probably not doing it correctly, not that anyone HAS to use a clicker to train. And also that many people have misconceptions about clicker training, and reward based training in general, that just aren't true. What's wrong with people correcting those misperceptions for those who obviously don't quite understand it? 

I think most people who use a clicker also use a voice marker. Personally, I use both, so not having a clicker handy will not cause me to miss a training opportunity. And as many others have said, the treats used are _tiny_. I cut up treats so that at MOST, they are the size of a small pea, and often even smaller than that. Solid Gold makes jerky treats that are about an inch square and maybe 1/8" thick - I cut those into at least 12 pieces, sometimes 16 pieces. Hundreds of those little bits weighs hardly anything and takes up very little space. 

As Bonnie points out, the rate of reinforcement (click/treat) is very high when first learning a new behavior, then as the behavior becomes stronger and eventually well established, the rate of reinforcement drops _for that particular behavior_ to random, and then may be faded out entirely. But I still often use praise (good girl/boy!) and affection to acknowledge that they've done good, even if they don't get any other reward. And as Melanie mentioned, sometimes the reward is playtime, or getting to do what s/he wants rather than a treat. Even for well established behaviors (sit?) if you start adding difficulty, such as distance, distraction, or duration, the rate of reinforcement increases again, until the dog is successfully complying under those new circumstances, and then becomes random and faded.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: I really enjoy reading all the "if you don't do exactly what I do, then you are an unenlightened idiot" posts all over this forum.


If a person really reads up on a training philosophy and then really sticks with it, and THEN decides to use their own method. That's one thing and FINE WITH ME. Cause they educated themselves, really gave it a try, and then decided how to proceed from a knowledge based place.

But the interesting thing for me is the postings from those who do NOT use the clicker and do not like the clicker who tried it and then say why they didn't like it. Because almost everyone who feels strongly AGAINST using it, didn't understand or use it properly.

For instance, saying 'good girl' can't be a replacement for the click. If it's something we say all the time to the dog we love then it does NOT have only one meaning to our dog that will help with the learning process. Added to the fact it is much to long of a verbal cue to 'mark' a behavior. As mentioned by someone else, if you have a verbal that IS sharp and short and only used in training (like a specific tone and a 'yes') than it can be used.

Another person posted that they felt a pat on their head and praise is just like the clicker. This shows the confusion with the click being a MARKER for the correct behavior the dog does. And the click (or the yes) is like a bridge FOR THE DOG between the behavior we saw and want and the reward the dog wants (food, toy OR PRAISE). 

People feel if they start with the clicker they have to use it forever. Not true. It's for teaching new behaviors and you start with a high rate of reinforcing (click/treat) and then go to random reinforcement and then fading it all together. 

What I have seen in some trainers is they don't educate themselves on the clicker but go on to teach a class. But since they don't really know what they are doing, they certainly can't pass it onto the students in a way a new method needs to be explained and taught so it makes sense and is worth trying. 

One of the other things the clicker (or the philosophy behind the training) teaches us quickly is that it's not enough that I think something should be a reward for my dogs in training. Say I choose dog food kibble, my dogs like their dinner. But in clicker training it's evident immediately that the kibble won't keep them involved for more than a brief time, yet if I add the cheese/liver/chicken it's all about me, learning, interacting, and my pup trying to keep working to earn the click and THEN get the treat.

So it's not up to me to 'decide' my dog likes one reward over another, and if I want to give it that lesser reward they should just appreciate it. It's not a reward AT ALL if my dog doesn't want to work for it. Off leash, in my face, stepping on my feet, and desperately trying to learn more more more more more.

Once again, I'm fine with a short concise word that ONLY means one thing. And it does work well for some people. But for most of us we will add inflection to that word so it doesn't always sound exactly the same. So doubt, anger, happiness, etc. can enter the training and not always to benefit the dog. All in the sound of a 'yes'.

Wish people would read the articles posted and THEN come back on why they don't agree with the research. Rather than just how they may have mis-learned the method by having a poor instructor, and then NOT liking clicker training cause it was stupid/didn't work/they didn't understand..


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I was just reading around the Karen Prior Academy Dog Trainer school website and it convinced me to try clicker training. They have a demo of a typical training lesson and it teaches clicker training. It even has video of correct clicking and some practice exercises with a real person to learn how to do it correctly. It says that with clicker training you can train your dog up to UD in one year (or something like that). And one woman trained her dog in 3 weeks for a CD (though it was an old dog who died shortly thereafter). I never really understood it either until I saw this lesson today.

Now I'm wondering, when training COME, do you click when the dog starts running, or when it gets to you.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

With Lancer, he was coming toward me when I called or moved away right from the start when he came home. He was also pretty much sitting right away. So I started with clicking when he got to me-now I click when he sits. I've seen others who click when their dog starts to move toward them and progress to clicking at the end when the dog is with them. I think the idea/intent is when starting out with the clicker, you should be giving the treat/praise immediately after clicking, so depending on the distance it would be difficult to give that treat when the dog is first starting toward you.

However, with Kayla in some exercise I do deviate from the rule of treat/praise right after the click. For instance on the dumbbell retrieve (we're preparing for the CDX), I now click on when she picks up the dumbbell-at her farthest point from me. I also click when she has returned and I have taken the dumbbell-at which point she gets a treat. And she has gotten more consistent with the pick-ups with this method.

My big issue is getting the timing of the click down to mark the moment when the dog has performed an exercise. I remember reading about using a ball and tossing it in the air and clicking when it gets to the top and when it bounces. I'm starting to practice with different sport shows on TV. For instance, with tennis matches when the ball hits the racket and/or ground, in golf when the club meets the ball, etc.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I clicked when Risa got to me for a recall, initially. Once she understood that "C'mere!" means return to Mom; we worked on adding fronts, finishes, etc.

You can certainly praise your dog and say your recall command _while_ your dog is in the act of returning to you. But I wouldn't click/treat until the dog is right on top of you.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

MaggieRoseLee - thanks for the very informative post. I respect that you state your position or opinion from a position of informed and experienced facts, and provide good explanation.


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## Robocop (Jul 18, 2008)

good article:

http://www.pbs.org/saf/1201/features/petpointer.htm


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Robocopgood article:
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/saf/1201/features/petpointer.htm


What is Clicker Training?
by Gary Wilkes 

He's a well known trainer, good for you for finding that article.


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## Robocop (Jul 18, 2008)

Thank you! I'm doing my homework


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your very informative posts, i have learned a lot about clicker training that I didn't know before, I will surely use the clicker training method in the future.


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