# A question about Kumpi...



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

that isn't about corn 

When did Kumpi change from using Meat Meal and Bone? 

About Dogs - Dog Food - Kumpi Adult Dog Food


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not sure what your motive is Lisa.

I do not know that they ever used meat and bone meal. 

It isn't possible that the site you have there actually made a mistake, I suppose. 

But since I have been feeding Kumpi, since last September, it has been Chicken meal, no meat and bone meal. 

But, if you go on her site, you can ask her directly. 

Is there anything else that you want to point out that Kumpi is doing wrong or has done wrong in the past with nothing more than something written on the internet by a third party?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

No selzer, I've confirmed it on several other sites.

I am curious exactly when they changed their ingredients, that is my motive. Since Robert posts here, I figure he will know.

This is not about you, nor is it about your dogs selzer, no need to be defensive


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, it has not been in there since September of last year, because I did check the ingredient lists before ever purchasing. 

They have not been around all that long. 

Lots of sites will quote other sites, so errors can be found in multiple places. 

I will e-mail Evy and ask.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Am i sensing a little tension here?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am sensing defensiveness and being very protective 

This is a food upgrade, it's not like it was a downgrade to get rid of the meat meal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

true, but from what she claims, about why she started the company, to provide a food that she feels comfortable feeding, and because her dog died of cancer which she in part attributes to the ingredients in pet food, I would be surprised if meat and bone meal was used. 

It would not stop me from using it. It would just be surprising. 

After the other thread being locked, being defensive is not unconceivable. I do not know about protective, but whatever.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I was just curious....

Here are the ingredients in 2000:
Kumpi Ingredients

Here are the ingredients in the adult in early 2007:
Kumpi Dog Food Adult Formula Ingredients
*
TO THE CREDIT OF KUMPI,* it seems about the time of the pet food recalls, they upgraded their ingredients in about late April of 2007, current ingredients: http://www.kumpi.com/adult.html


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> ....I would be surprised if meat and bone meal was used.


Prepare to be surprised


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What kind of meat and bonemeal??


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## StellaSquash (Apr 22, 2010)

LisaT said:


> that isn't about corn
> 
> When did Kumpi change from using Meat Meal and Bone?
> 
> About Dogs - Dog Food - Kumpi Adult Dog Food



other than causing a ruckus on this board, what do you need the info for?

will it change anything? I think those that feed it, still will, and those that don't likely won't be swayed either.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I have the answer! And of course you knew I would!

Meat and bone meal was used as a term so that they could use either pork or beef since the amino acid profiles are so similar, depending on what her supplier could get and of good quality and quantity. Unfortunately, there was way too much bad meats that they were having to turn away and it would not be scalable for the future to continue offering beef or pork in the food. So they reformulated with more chicken meal instead. And once they did that, the beef and bone meal was removed from the bags.

She had it posted on her site when they made the change. By using the words meat and bone meal she didn't have to change the bags between each production which would have been a huge and unnecessary cost.

I would suggest you give her a call if you have any questions. Just happened to see this on lunch break.

I'm actually going to visit her tomorrow night! I'm so excited to meet the lady that has been used by God to change my dogs (and so many others) lives for the better! 

Have a blessed day!

Robert


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hiya Sue ~

Back in 2007 is when meat and pork were no longer used in the food. Meat and bone meal have also been fear mongered to death - if you think about it, euthanized dogs and cats and/or roadkill just are not cost effective for use in pet food. There are protein/fat levels to meet and I could go on and on, BUT the bottom line for me was, I wanted the best meat available at the time of production and sometimes it was beef and sometimes it was pork. If I listed one or the other, I wouldn't have had the freedom to tell my supplier to find the best of either and go with it.


Just after the recalls, my supplier was having a HORRIBLE time getting in either that wasn't rancid and/or didn't test positive for salmonella......the beef in particular. Having food manufactured is an intricate process. My 'run date' is established about 3 - 4 weeks in advance and since the meats all need to be fresh, my supplier had to keep getting Crosswinds to change their schedule (not just for me, but other clients too) since he couldn't procure the beef or pork. It turned into a real mess and he drew a line in the sand and called all of us personally (my supplier ROCKS) and explained the situation and said we would need to re-formulate and that he was no longer going to try and supply beef and pork. I'd say over 90% of the time until then, he was able to get great beef, but he just wasn't going to keep hitting that brick wall. I just wanted to keep the door open through the years if he could get better pork than beef.


I remember going through that and Crosswinds called me (before the BIG decision was made) and they told me my production run had to be moved out ten days due to no meat being available. Sue......euthanized pets just are not an option, both ethically and just time wise as well. Mark (my nutritionist) takes every batch of food and puts it under a microscope and looks for hair, etc. He says that he has never seen a food so well cooked and so much the same from batch to batch - but that is also where running a fixed formula comes into play as well. It's easier for Crosswinds when I don't change the formula - think about regular human cooking and what happens when you are told to use 'more of this and less of that' - it changes things.


LOL and the meat and bone meal i.e. beef/pork formula is what was approved for the dogs at Ground Zero and what they kept buying and having such great results with. They BUY their Kumpi due to the results they are getting AND they do like the safety of my 'no recall' record - which I owe to my supplier. 

*************************************************************

While I am surprised, I am also satisfied with the answer. It is kind of like Canidae switching to ocean fish meal. Meat and bone meal is used in a lot of foods, but it is no longer in Kumpi. I prefer the chicken because that way I would know if I had a dog that was allergic to beef say, I would understand why from bag to bag I might be having issues.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Information causes a ruckus? Only for those who can be "ruckused", I guess. Discussion of information that is out there for public consumption can lead to some knowledge and understanding. Not everyone is close minded to one way or another.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I'm not understanding why there are a couple of people here wondering why Lisa is asking about the ingredients. That is something that she has done for years and where a lot of her knowledge is. She has probably asked questions about every brand of food that any of us feed. 

This is the *Diet & Nutrition* area so what are people suppose to talk about here if not in large part the ingredients? 

People sure do get passionate about their kibble don't they? As to God working through someone's making of dog kibble, well I guess I'll have to ponder on that one.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

ILGHAUS said:


> I'm not understanding why there are a couple of people here wondering why Lisa is asking about the ingredients. That is something that she has done for years and where a lot of her knowledge is. She has probably asked questions about every brand of food that any of us feed.
> 
> This is the *Diet & Nutrition* area so what are people suppose to talk about here if not in large part the ingredients?
> 
> People sure do get passionate about their kibble don't they? As to God working through someone's making of dog kibble, well I guess I'll have to ponder on that one.


Good to ask questions! Also good to make phone calls too as she is one of the easiest to get in touch with. She did tell me that her web form hiccups sometime so if anyone emailed her and didn't get a response, just email her direct at [email protected] 

Here you can read about her - which yes - she gives God all the credit....

KumpiKares

*"About Me*
*Evy **I am a believer, Jesus is my Lord and Savior. That defines my life. This company is a gift from Him and has become my passion. I am SO blessed to have my own product line as I look back at the recalls. I'm keeping the company small and personal to protect my own. Hope you consider trusting your dog/cat to me!!"*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Now I have to go back and find out where God entered into the conversation.

But asking about current ingredient lists is one thing. Asking about ingredients that people consider questionable that are no longer in the formula, well, considering all the fuss the other topic had, one has to wonder what the point is in the asking. 

It sounds like bringing it up to cause more scrutiny of the kibble and to open the can of worms up all over again, maybe because it is fun to tweak people's beaks on a chat room thread.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

rjvamp said:


> I'm actually going to visit her tomorrow night! I'm so excited to meet the lady that has been used by God to change my dogs (and so many others) lives for the better!
> 
> Have a blessed day!
> 
> Robert


I mentioned it - but your were posting probabaly as I was and we crossed wires!

Here information page on her blog gives God all the credit .... she LIVES what she believes. So integrity and ethics is of the highest. 

Thanks!

Robert


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

rjvamp said:


> I'm actually going to visit her tomorrow night! I'm so excited to meet the lady that has been used by God to change my dogs (and so many others) lives for the better!


While you are visiting, can you ask her who her source, specifically, is of her non GMO corn....since NO ONE there has responded to my email request. And, this is not bring up the "c" word again (trust me, we beat that one to death already!!lol), I would truly like to know....and so would others. Thanks in advance.

ADD: you can PM the info. to me if you like so as not to start another corn issue...choice is yours.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Gib Laut said:


> While you are visiting, can you ask her who her source, specifically, is of her non GMO corn....since NO ONE there has responded to my email request. And, this is not bring up the "c" word again (trust me, we beat that one to death already!!lol), I would truly like to know....and so would others. Thanks in advance.
> 
> ADD: you can PM the info. to me if you like so as not to start another corn issue...choice is yours.


Did you use her web form? I was on the phone with her was it last night or this morning? I can't remember....anyway....she said her web form is not working right and her web guy is working on it - as in the form is not sending the messages to her. I sent her a test message and she did NOT get it either.....So...if you want to try [email protected] then she might be able to get back with you sooner  I know she has been a bit distressed about the web form and wondering who else might have emailed her that way and she doesn't know! Hopefully it will be fixed soon. Her email address is also at the form...so if you don't ever get a response there is probably a technical glitch somewhere.

I will ask her for you too.

I'm so excited!!!! I get to see how things get run and the day-in-the life of the pet food I feed


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I e-mailed back, replying to her email to me, so I did not go through the website. She has always been excellent in responding to my questions.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

rjvamp said:


> I have the answer! And of course you knew I would!...


Yes, I knew you would, thank you for the reply Robert!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

TJ and Samba, thanks for understanding my questions


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

LisaT said:


> Yes, I knew you would, thank you for the reply Robert!


You are welcome. Happy 4th!


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Update*

I visited Kumpi this past week in Colorado. It was a great experience to see the day to day, the shipping processes and the CLEAN (you can eat off the floor) warehouse! Her warehouse manager does an AWESOME JOB! I was in the USAF so I know a clean warehouse when I see one! He gave me the grand tour – very cool. 
The Human Side was good to see too - when pet parents called and issues with dogs on other brands of foods cropped up and they just needed an ear, someone to care and provide advice. I also got to see pet parents whose dogs have made a great turn around by just trying the best NOTHING FROM CHINA food. 
It was also cool to see the Kumpi in the local Vitamin Cottages next to other foods since I always order and don’t have local distribution here. Of course, I don’t mind having it dropped off at my door – saves me time, gas and money by doing it that way!
Have a great week everyone – and hope you all enjoyed the 4th of July (well those that would celebrate it since this is an international board).


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Robert, you really should be on the payroll, or at least get a cut


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

LisaT said:


> Robert, you really should be on the payroll, or at least get a cut


Seriously!!!! :wild:


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

LisaT said:


> Robert, you really should be on the payroll, or at least get a cut


I would drink to that!
:toasting:


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

sorry to be the party pooper of this thread, but the cleanest warehouse on the planet, all the goodwill in the world, great philosiphies, and use of non china made vitamins cant change what the food is.

question...why cant they do all this and produce a meat based food at the same time, even if they feel the need to put their beloved ingredient (not to be named here) lower on the list?


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Derek - you are no party pooper! 

It is the formula that works. And we that use it have learned that this formula, and it does include the name that cannot be named (I have Harry Potter going on in my brain right now), works as a whole. The nutritionist knows his stuff and the dogs are living proof.

Here are around 50 Police dogs that are doing awesome on the Kumpi- and if you notice - mostly German Shepherds.....

Twitpic - Share photos on Twitter <--- this was hanging up in the warehouse, a gift to Kumpi from the K9 folks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It works!!!! And it probably has a whole lot more meat than Canidae even though it has three or for meat meals up front. Doesn't matter, it is followed by seven to nine grains and grain fractions. And Canidae has five stars by your prescious dog food review. And from someone who fed it for over a year, the food is complete junk.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

selzer said:


> ...it probably has a whole lot more meat than Canidae even though it has three or for meat meals up front.


Actually the fragmented proteins in Kumpi may be far outweighed by the first ingredient of Corn Meal, there is no way of actually knowing without more information.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Since everyone is so close to the makers of this food, has anyone asked what % meat meal to total ingredients are in this food? I mean if they give the grand tour of their facilities, i'd think they'd be able to answer a pretty simple question.

Wouldn't that be a simple solution to see if it's meat based or not?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

at 22% protein (adult formula) and corn meal as ther ingredient in greatest quantitly, its obviously not a choice for those who want to feed a meat based kibble. a higher % of meat content will simply yield a higher protein food. i also dont think any other grain inclusive food at 24% protein is going to have much meat either.

Kumpi is appealing to folks who have not had success on other foods. whether or not many of these folks have tried grainless meat filled foods to see if the "problems" persist is unknown. testimonials...yes, all the companies have them..iams/euk, purina, etc...there are even testimonials for iams on a group of K9 officer gsd's.....what should i take from that?

if a dog doesnt have allergic issues with corn, then Kumpi probably works for them, but i think with persistence "some" people could find a food that both solves their dogs issues and has the meat that they were designed to eat and utilize.

i can find tons of people for whom Iams, Euk, ol roy, purina dog chow, pedigree "works" and gives their dogs no issues..........sorry to offend anyone, but without a decent meat content, i find it hard to say a dog is eating a sound diet. 

being the only food a dog can tolerate and being a sound diet are not one in the same. i would think if a corn based diet was all that my dog could handle, that would be the last straw and id go 100% homemade and find what works.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Hi Lucy 
Yes that would be a simple question to ask AND no company, including Kumpi, is going to tell you the exact percentage of each ingredient is in the food, especially if it was to be posted on a forum where other pet food companies could try and copy the formula. That is like asking Coke how much of x, y, z ingredient is in a can of coke - those are trade secrets. 

We can surmise however, that since cornmeal is very LOW in protein (not to be confused with corn gluten meal which is HIGH in protein) the bulk of the protein would have to come primarily from the meat sources in the food. 

Hi Derek

While some may prefer higher protein foods, if the body doesn't use it then the dog is just going to get rid of it. To me it seems a waste to farm for more chickens, etc.., which means we have to farm more land for crops to feed those animals just to put in the dogs food. What a cycle!

The 9/11 dogs were fed Kumpi and did extremely well recovering in between periods of work and down time, I would say those really HARD WORKING dogs on the % of protein in the Kumpi food did just fine and they work harder than most dogs. 

One thing you may not realize is BIG companies provides money and free food to get endorsements. Kumpi doesn’t do that. The endorsements come from customers willing to pay for a product that works. And they see the results. My sister even told me last night that her dog, after being on Kumpi for less than a month, has soft fur again like when he was a puppy. She is thrilled that I gifted her a bag of food.

I have seen some grain free foods use pea protein and potato proteins to bulk up the protein in the food. So even though someone is thinking they are getting a grain-free meat based protein food they may be getting more pea and potato than they think! And I know dogs didn’t eat that in the wild either. But I bet you haven’t seen the dogs go crazy on the farms when it is time to bring the Corn in – they love it! My dogs were like that when I grew up (we had a small farm).

I do realize that dogs in the wild ate carcasses, etc... But we all seem to forget that they generally gorged themselves since they didn't eat every day. So not sure how good it really is to feed high protein foods over long periods of time. Maybe that is why some raw feeders suggest a fast once a week?

There are plenty of dogs who had “corn” allergies and are on Kumpi and do just fine – the grades and quality of the cornmeal used DOES make a difference. As well as all the other ingredients, sourcing and the premix (which doesn’t come from China) – *notice the recalls lately with vitamin issues in other brands of food and vitamins for dogs*????? So with other brands that have maybe cheaper grades and maybe mixed with other cheaper ingredients then I can see how some dogs have issues. 

You would be pleasantly surprised if you gave it a try.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

rjvamp said:


> Hi Lucy
> Yes that would be a simple question to ask AND no company, including Kumpi, is going to tell you the exact percentage of each ingredient is in the food
> 
> We can surmise however, that since cornmeal is very LOW in protein (not to be confused with corn gluten meal which is HIGH in protein) the bulk of the protein would have to come primarily from the meat sources in the food.
> ...


actually, while not breaking down by each meat product, orijen and acana do state what percentage of their product is made up of meat (70% in the case of orijen, not sure on acana, 60% i think)...there are a few other grainless foods out there who are willing to give out this information as well. will Kumpi even provide that information? i doubt it, and they probably wouldnt want that information out there.

since dogs are biologically designed to efficiently eat and digest meat, its unlikely there will be a large number of dogs wasting a more meat based diet. the idea that farming more land to produce feed for chickens is wasteful is silly...where do you think all the corn that Kumpi uses comes from?

now, if the bulk of the protein in Kumpi comes from the meat products in the food, as you surmise, then the fact that it only has a 22% protein content is indeed an indictment of how little meat is in the product.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The theory that a diet higher in meat protein would cause more waste doesn't really hold water. I feed my dogs, and my cat, a raw diet. Their stool is very small and decomposes quickly, which is an indication that there is NOT a lot of waste. In fact, it is an indication that their bodies are using what they are being fed more efficiently.

Also, Corn used directly in dog food takes up the same amount of space used to grow corn fed to chickens. I would like to see some statistics that prove otherwise, which is entirely possible that less corn is directly used in dog feed than bringing the chickens to an age and weight for butcher.

While I admire your passion, and loyalty, to this company, you aren't supplying any facts to support what you are saying. It seems that you are just reiterating what you have been told rather than actual independent thought based on reputable sources and science.

I'm not in any way saying that your dog is not doing better on this food that she was on other foods. But that does not mean that this food is the end all of end all's directly supplied from heaven. Having soft fur does not mean it is a healthy dog. Blood work showing organ function levels and a full exam shows it is a healthy dog.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> actually, while not breaking down by each meat product, orijen and acana will/and do state what percentage of their product is made up of meat (70% in the cas of orijen, not sure on acana, 60% i think)...will Kumpi even provide that information? i doubt it, and they probably wouldnt want that information out there.
> 
> since dogs are biologically designed to efficiently eat and digest meat, its unlikely there will be a large number of dogs wasting a more meat based diet. the idea that farming more land to produce feed for chickens is wasteful is silly...where do you think all the corn that Kumpi uses comes from?
> 
> now, if the bulk of the protein in Kumpi comes from the meat products in the food, as you surmise, then the fact that it only has a 22% protein content is indeed an indictment of how little meat is in the product.


Cornmeal is highly digestible like meat but not used as the protein source. What I meant by wasting, was if you add a ton more meat in a diet and the dog isn't utilizing the protein then the dog is going to get rid of the protein. If working police dogs don't even use all that protein then why would my dog need it? They don't. The farming comes into play where you have to make more feed for animals which are then slaughtered. You actually have to feed a lot of grains to chickens to fatten them up - more so than if you were just going direct to kibble.

The % of protein in the food is appropriate for dogs and recommended by the NRC.

For grain-free kibbles that do state a % of meat, etc... is that before it was cooked? Or is that after cooked? And just because you have that much meat, how much protein came from the meat or from other added ingredients like potatoes, alfalfa, peas?

I look at the evidence -the dogs eating the food - and I see the results. They speak for themselves. Healthy dogs living long lives. A company that has integrity and can be trusted - no recalls ever - EVER - nothing from China (where the recalls came from) including the vitamin pre-mix. And a formula that is perfect - because it is what they need. 

If people want to get hung up on 1 ingredient and % of protein then that is cool with me. Those of us that feed Kumpi just smile and say - well, don't try it - we did and we are VERY glad we did. I got tired of playing the petfood game - this new food, that new food, this one gave gas, that one gave the runs...... doesn't happen with the Kumpi - even for dogs that have had all the issues I've read on the board. I tried the raw route myself and the grain-free and my dogs did not do as well. GAS from heck. My girl gained weight even though she ate less and it was raw meat! My daschund, norwegian buhund and GSD all eat the same food and guess what? they are looking good now - back to where they were before the grain-free, raw trial I did! Oh it went great for a minute, but it didn't last for us. I don't feed them any canned food. They get their Kumpi, a small bite from the table on occasion, their yogurt a few days a week as a treat is what they get. I don't love them with food. I do that by playing with them and exercising them. I give them what I feel is the best. Just like you and the other board members do to - you give what you feel is the best for your dog.

I find it funny how people talk about McDonalds when speaking of food with corn - like corn is trash or bad....its funny - cause by seeing the results I see, then McDonalds must be AWESOME food cause I see AWESOME results in my dogs, my friends dogs and those on the Kumpi Kids … fans of Kumpi Pet Food website, etc.

Best to you,

Robert


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> Blood work showing organ function levels and a full exam shows it is a healthy dog.


I tried to show that before with one of my dogs on Kumpi and I was told bloodwork doesn't mean anything....I guess cause I fed a food with corn.....Oh well - glad to at least see someone believes medical exams and blood work does mean something!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rjvamp said:


> I tried to show that before with one of my dogs on Kumpi and I was told bloodwork doesn't mean anything....I guess cause I fed a food with corn.....Oh well - glad to at least see someone believes medical exams and blood work does mean something!


To make that legitimate you would need to do regular bloodwork over the course of their lives, and there would have to be a control group as well. Same as any study for any food.

Exactly how long has Kumpi been in business? I'm a bit confused. I keep seeing reference to 9/11 but in the next paragraph there is reference to the company starting because of the tainted food that happened a few years ago. Unless I misunderstood something.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Of interest:

Fat Knowledge: Average American Consumes 1500 Pounds of Corn a Year

"To throw around some rough numbers, I believe it takes around 10 calories of grain to create 1 calorie of beef. A quarter pound of beef has approximately 259 calories which would take 2,590 calories of corn to make. Corn has approximately 389 calories per pound, so if the cow was feed a diet of just corn, a quarter pound of beef would take 6.6 pounds of corn to make."


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> To make that legitimate you would need to do regular bloodwork over the course of their lives, and there would have to be a control group as well. Same as any study for any food.
> 
> Exactly how long has Kumpi been in business? I'm a bit confused. I keep seeing reference to 9/11 but in the next paragraph there is reference to the company starting because of the tainted food that happened a few years ago. Unless I misunderstood something.


Here is the history

Kumpi Dog Food history


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well, in all fairness to the continued 9/11 references and according to the food history page, those dogs were not on Kumpi prior to 9/11 but she donated food to them and they were on it while they were on site. That means that their physical condition while working can not be attributed to this particular food. It will take time for affects to show from a food, either good or bad, so to use the 9/11 dogs as an example of how wonderful this food might be is false.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> Well, in all fairness to the continued 9/11 references and according to the food history page, those dogs were not on Kumpi prior to 9/11 but she donated food to them and they were on it while they were on site. That means that their physical condition while working can not be attributed to this particular food. It will take time for affects to show from a food, either good or bad, so to use the 9/11 dogs as an example of how wonderful this food might be is false.


I've seen results in less than 2 weeks with my German Shepherd/Malamute.....RIP Lobo who lived to be 14 years and 45 days..... maybe that is why they kept feeding the food all these years too after 9/11 - The results. 

I'm not sure of their history with the food but 9/11 did bring them together. I used that as a reference to see longevity with a brand - which is pretty rare these days.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

rjvamp said:


> Of interest:
> 
> Fat Knowledge: Average American Consumes 1500 Pounds of Corn a Year
> 
> "To throw around some rough numbers, I believe it takes around 10 calories of grain to create 1 calorie of beef. A quarter pound of beef has approximately 259 calories which would take 2,590 calories of corn to make. Corn has approximately 389 calories per pound, so if the cow was feed a diet of just corn, a quarter pound of beef would take 6.6 pounds of corn to make."


except the meat in most high meat content grainless foods tends to come from chicken , turkey, lamb, and salmon.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

This has been an interesting topic, but time to get back to work.
I would recommend if you have questions of Evy Serpa and Kumpi that you call her. It is the most efficient means possible to find out what you want – whatever that might be. +1-303-693-6533
If folks have time to post questions to a forum but refuse to call her, well that speaks volumes to me.
If folks haven’t tried Kumpi then they have no basis for negative commentary. I can understand if they had recalls then yes – negative speak all you want. But they have a CLEAN RECORD!
We who have tried Kumpi have the basis to form our experienced opinion and that opinion is – Kumpi Rocks and Delivers as Promised!


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

rjvamp said:


> For grain-free kibbles that do state a % of meat, etc... is that before it was cooked? Or is that after cooked? And just because you have that much meat, how much protein came from the meat
> 
> I look at the evidence -the dogs eating the food - and I see the results. They speak for themselves. Healthy dogs living long lives.
> 
> ...


yes, orijen, and even canidae grain free, among others, do state what % of the protein comes from meat. the argument foods like evo, orijen, etc.. are deriving much protein from things other than meat isnt going to have much merit.

evidence...testimonials...all the dog food companies have them. if i listed all the iams testimonials here on one page, it would all look very impressive.

the problem is that one ingredient is the primary ingredient in the food, not some ingredient way down the ingredient list........when history, biology, and evolution over thousands of years has proven what ingredient is most efficiently utilized and digested by canines and will be the building block of any sound canine diet.

Kumpi has simply convinced a niche market that they have found a new formula that workd for canines where i would only go so far as to say they have found formulas that canines can survive on and are (should) be much cheaper to produce than a meat based kibble.

to be clear, for those who found their dogs couldnt handle any meat based diet and only thrive on the Kumpi corn model, so be it...however, if that food isnt on the cheaper end of the scale then my contention is consumers are being fleeced.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

roxy84 said:


> to be clear, for those who found their dogs couldnt handle any meat based diet and only thrive on the Kumpi corn model, so be it...however, if that food isnt on the cheaper end of the scale then my contention is consumers are being fleeced.


:headbang:

you have made really great points and I agree with you, but I think you're bangin your head against a wall on this one!lol....I'm sure you have followed this discussion previously......as I said.....:headbang:


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> Kumpi has simply convinced a niche market that they have found a new formula that workd for canines where i would only go so far as to say they have found formulas that canines can survive on and are (should) be much cheaper to produce than a meat based kibble.
> 
> to be clear, for those who found their dogs couldnt handle any meat based diet and only thrive on the Kumpi corn model, so be it...however, if that food isnt on the cheaper end of the scale then my contention is consumers are being fleeced.


This formula ROCKS! :wild::wild::wild::wild::wild:

Thanks Kumpi for keeping our fur babies safe and healthy! We tried it - took the pill, just like in the Matrix, and we can't turn back now that we are awake and see the results for ourselves.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rjvamp said:


> If folks have time to post questions to a forum but refuse to call her, well that speaks volumes to me.


Let's get one thing straight...YOU sent me the PM. Should we share for with the entire class? 

Don't make snide comments to me about something I said in a response to YOUR PM on here unless you want me to share the entire conversation.

I asked legitimate questions and you gave me crap answers. If you want to be a company cheerleader, that's your life, but hiding answers in PM's is not going to get you anywhere.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

rjvamp said:


> This formula ROCKS! :wild::wild::wild::wild::wild:
> 
> Thanks Kumpi for keeping our fur babies safe and healthy! We tried it - took the pill, just like in the Matrix, and we can't turn back now that we are awake and see the results for ourselves.


hmmm...sounds kind of like a cult.

now, i believe dogs should eat a meat based food and are designed to do so. i dont need to feed the food to say something negative about it. 

i know this subject is a dead horse...those who have been "indoctrinated" will sing the praises. it does remind me of the propaganda machine that is Hills and how they "indoctrinate" vets to their way of thinking in vet schools.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> Let's get one thing straight...YOU sent me the PM. Should we share for with the entire class?
> 
> Don't make snide comments to me about something I said in a response to YOUR PM on here unless you want me to share the entire conversation.
> 
> I asked legitimate questions and you gave me crap answers. If you want to be a company cheerleader, that's your life, but hiding answers in PM's is not going to get you anywhere.


You completely misread that.  That statement is due to all the questions that come up from everyone yet I don't see people saying "I called and this is what Kumpi said"

I was not trying to be rude to you in anyway.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> hmmm...sounds kind of like a cult.
> 
> now, i believe dogs should eat a meat based food and are designed to do so. i dont need to feed the food to say something negative about it.
> 
> i know this subject is a dead horse...those who have been "indoctrinated" will sing the praises. it does remind me of the propaganda machine that is Hills and how they "indoctrinate" vets to their way of thinking in vet schools.


At least we see the good results  regardless of how much of each ingredient is in the food - cause I don't know and neither does anyone but Kumpi and the manufacturer


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rjvamp said:


> You completely misread that.  That statement is due to all the questions that come up from everyone yet I don't see people saying "I called and this is what Kumpi said"
> 
> I was not trying to be rude to you in anyway.


Perhaps next time you should not quote what someone said in a PM then because I highly doubt I misread or misunderstood your intent.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I know there are those that will never agree with me. That is cool. Each person must decide what is right for themselves. Some say Kumpi, Some say Evo, Some say home made, Some say Raw....whatever is decided.....Enjoy your fur kids for however long you have them. They are wonderful gifts in our lives and I'm not sure what I would do without mine!

Have a great day.

Robert

:wild::hug:


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I have no clue what I quoted from the PM that has gotten you so upset - I looked and can't find anything that could have been a snide remark to you. Nor a copy of what I said to you in the PM. If you want please contact me via phone so we can straighten this out. I will send you my phone number via PM....anytime after 5:15 PM CST is good.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

rjvamp said:


> ....The % of protein in the food is appropriate for dogs and recommended by the NRC.....


NRC guidelines are based on minimum or maximum amounts so that disease is not caused. That is, what is the minimal amount of protein that can be fed without causing visual disease. NRC guidelines do not determine optimal health.

The skeptic in me also wonders how much of those guidelines are influenced by the idea that pet food is meant for the "waste" that humans do not use in their food chain, and from that viewpoint, what are the minimum or maximum amounts of ingredients that can be fed without visual disease.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

rjvamp said:


> ... We tried it - took the pill, just like in the Matrix, and we can't turn back now that we are awake and see the results for ourselves.


Robert, what actually went wrong with raw? I went back to your blog, and found all the raw references were deleted, and there is no record of what the issues where and why you switched back?


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Here is where I posted about my journey. 

angelesandfriends.com/2010/04/our-raw-feeding-journey-a-lesson-learned/

Short reply. I'm on my phone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Since Canidae grain free was mentioned, I MUST reply. 

I neutered Cujo too young, before I gave him to my parents. He was doing fine on Nutro when I sent him over there nearly five years ago. But a few months after his surgery he started haveing problems with his skin and coat. 

We went in and they used steroids, and antibiotics. Then we did mitaban baths even though we found NO mites on the skin scrapings. Then we decided to go with a food allergy and switched him to Natural Balance Duck and Potato. Minimal improvement. 

We sedated him and punched out pieces of his skin and sent it away to a lab to be analyzed. We came back empty. 

I voiced my thought that maybe this was not something the dog was allergic to, but something he was lacking. 

Since the other dogs out of Arwen and Dubya were doing fine, we thought maybe it was environmental. My parents bought a humidifier for their furnace, then they replaced the furnace so that they had central air and the added humidifier for the dry winter. 
No help, though there seemed to be a difference in his winter coat as opposed to his summer coat.

He got much worse again, and I switched him to Canidae. Some improvement. My parents were anal about not letting him have anything but 100% chicken for treats. They finally decided that his coat was as good as it would get and just something they would have to deal with. 

When Canidae changed their formula, Cujo got much worse again. We tried Taste of the Wild grain free, with a little improvement. Once Canidae came out with their grain free formula I switched him to it. He was thin, boney, and his coat was poor. I was really embarrassed by it. 

After my dogs had been on Kumpi for a while and Old Pip had been put down, I decided to switch Cujo to Kumpi. At this point, I felt that corn could not be the issue as he had NEVER been fed corn previously, and I felt desperate. 

We switched him slowly, but his coat got better, and better, and better. 

He has been on the Kumpi for probably three or four months now. I come in and say, boy his coat is looking good. It FEELS good. He is happy and playing with his toys. He is not constantly licking at his sore spots, because they are GONE. 

And he has put on weight. He is not bony now. 

He was weaned on Nutro natural choice large breed lamb and rice, and was on that for probably six or eight months.

He was on Duck and Potato for a long time, close to a year.

He was on Canidae for at least a year prior to the formulae change.

He was on the Taste of the Wild for as long as two 35 pound bags takes to go away, about 1.5 months. 

He was on the Grain free Canidae for at least 1.5 years. 

It is not like we did not give this other garbage a chance, because we did. 

In the last month or so Cujo has been able to partake in tidbits too with no ill effects. But the majority of his diet is Kumpi.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is not that my dogs cannot do well on other foods, it is that I want something that ALL of my dogs do well on. All of my dogs did well on Nutro natural choice. (Cujo is not my dog). We switched because I got bad cans of the stuff, and bad bags of food and massive colitis and yellow bile barf, and no, I did not think it was the food. I nursed them back and put them back on the food and had more yellow bile barf, and more colitis. That is why I switched from Nutro. They did fine on it for years, but then it was laced with the malamine.

I put them on Canidae, and most of them did very well on Canidae. Only Whitney remained thing with repeated bouts of colitis. I tested her for every last thing, running up vet bills. 

The formulae change caused massive colits with several of my dogs, but by the time we realized that the formula had changed, there was no easing them into the barley peas and millet garbage that they added. They also switched their manufacturing to Diamond. 

Since most of the dogs were able to adjust to the new formula, I continued to struggle with Whitney, and tried various things including RAW and grain free foods (prarie raw instinct, wellness core, solid gold barking at the moon, and taste of the wild -- which I donated to the animal shelter) When Canidae came out with grain free, I got that. I started switching Tori and Whitney. Tori did ok, Whitney got deathly ill and lost MORE weight. I went back to the regular canidae and hoped to get her to gain back what she lost. She would not. 

Last July I noticed that all of my dogs dropped about five pounds FAST, some lost up to nine pounds. My best educated guess is that I got a bad run of food. I was buying ten 44 pound bags of Canidae and storing it in my living room. Rush was down from 79 to 73 and went down farther to 69 pounds. Milla was about 47 pounds. Ninja lost six pounds and was down to 50 pounds. Every one of my dogs lost this weight. 

Robert suggested Kumpi. I am glad he did. I started switching them slowly, but finally just switched them as Whitney needed nourishment NOW. I worked with Evy, and with her nutricianist. 

Whitney who was down to 53 pounds is now up to 61 and holding. She is thin, but not boney. She has held 61 for probably six months. she looks and feels good now. She still gives me mush poop on occasion, but she also gives me nice solid turds. It is really not funny. 

Since I changed to Kumpi there has not been one incidence of colitis. Not One. 

I was getting colitis once a week on that other garbage. Every new bag of food was a questionmark, and I was opening two bags a week. 

So all of you can be scornful of my choice or skeptical about what they say. But it DOES work for my dogs. I currently have eleven dogs on it (counting Cujo). I am not feeding one Evo and the rest Orijen. No, I feed them all Kumpi, and they are ALL doing good on it.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

rjvamp said:


> Here is where I posted about my journey.
> 
> angelesandfriends.com/2010/04/our-raw-feeding-journey-a-lesson-learned/
> 
> Short reply. I'm on my phone.



I'm just disappointed that you removed the day to day reports of when your dogs were on raw. 

If they were having issues, sounds like there was something wrong with the diet. Indy does not do well on raw. If I recall, your boy looked a bit "corn fed" when you started the raw diet (pretty common once they get close to 3 years old), so some of that weight could have been losing that "grain weight" which often happens once a dog is off kibble - their body loses the grain weight, and then starts filling in differently - it's a process over time. 

The urination is an issue - Max has this problem with certain ingredients, particularly sulfurs like eggs, garlic, etc.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Robert, I read your link about your journey so thanks for posting that. No offense, I know you have made your decisions, but I must say, that first of all trying any NEW diet for 30 days is never enough. Dogs need considerable time to adjust to new diets. But in particular, moving to a raw diet when a dog is accustomed to eating processed, many times requires time to adjust to unprocessed real food. Not really a fair "trial" if you are going to use this as a means to compare. The uncontrollable urination, while I understand your dislike, is a detox side effect mentioned by many that goes away once the dog cleans it's system and becomes healthier. It's actually a good thing, though obviously not for the human....again, you make your choices, I will make mine, but I felt the need to address that issue.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I can relate to this analysis of raw feeding. The first month or more when I first tried it was not really pleasant in many ways. But, once everything lined out, the dog's improvement was so profound that I could not believe it. It transformed a dog under constant veterinary care to one who was healthy, glowing and robust. Everyone has their experiences and interpretations of them, of course.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you for the information on the detox Derek and Samba.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

@LisaT - So with certain ingredients, the urination on raw can cause quick needs to pee? I've just never seen my girl pee like that before and it just scared the you know what out of me......poor thing broke my heart.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

roxy84 said:


> hmmm...sounds kind of like a cult.


Wow.... where's the smiley of a hammer hitting a nail directly on it's head? Definitely could have put that one to use.

Here's a little bump for an old thread that may apply to a recent new one. 

Maybe it will save some people time so they don't have to search around, if interested....


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Looks like my post was moved and is being reviewed. As the short synopsis - and not to repeat my whole post because it was moved for review and don't want to cause any issues with management of the board. I do not FEED Kumpi anymore...just for those that may read this whole thread.

There were certain things that I saw while visiting Kumpi in Colorado and that is what I will stick to (none of the personal things that occurred since others felt that wasn't warranted - although I felt it there was a direct connection - I should just write a book about it):

Anyway - 

4 lb bags are hand made - not a good practice since contamination can occur.

I asked about A/C in the warehouse and I was pointed to a fan - so no climate control that I could see other than that. So HOT days in Colorado - well they get HOT.

And Pallets of food in the home garage which the garage doesn't have A/C either and fumes from the car (even though she is careful to open the door quickly) can still get around and on the bags. Plus again the heat in a garage not so good in the summer. And even packed boxes left on the concrete for extended periods of time before FEDEX could pick up.

The website is way outdated with misinformation on food comparisons which I told her numerous times she needs to update. After all, you can't talk about label claims or false ads when your own site is not up to date. Further she no longer posts her test results online, which she did during the recalls and made a big deal about. Why are the tests now removed? Even Stella and Chewy's and Natural Balance allow you to check to see if your food passed their tests.

After visiting my eyes were opened to many different things. I think I will start that book - after all, you can publish for free on Amazon Kindle  An Autobiography of the year I wish I could forget


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I was wondering what happened to the thread you posted from last night. Yeah, i guess i can see how the mods would like to review that one though i probably missed anything that was posted earlier this morning.

Anyways, quick question for you that I didn't mention before. I know when you first started to get involved with kumpi, you went on the grand tour of their facilities and came back to report sparkling reviews. 

How long did it take to figure out all of this stuff that you're stating above? It was July when you visited, so storage conditions should have been pretty obvious at first sight. What about everything else?


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Continuing to be positive about something when in a state of denial is a common occurrence i.e. if I say it was all grand then nothing bad happened to me personally and all will be okay - just doesn't work over the long haul - I had to face reality on what happened but not going into that because that may be why my other thread was moved for review. Suffice it to say, I sought professional assistance to work through these issues. 

The warehouse is clean but there is no A/C just the fan that I was shown, etc. The garage has no A/C as well. We can all look at Colorado temps and see the summer temps. The 4 lb bags are hand made from 20 lb bags...didn't think much about that since the warehouse was clean, but after so many recalls lately - that is a risk that I identified.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

One last point and then I have some World of Warcraft to play.... My post on why I stopped feeding was just to finally answer the question that many have asked. And in that post I did not say STOP eating Kumpi (feeding that is). But in post I wanted to point out a few things that people should be aware of. With a clean record I highly doubt any issue would crop up, but just letting it be known that there was a personal matter and then some things that should be corrected with processes. And I hope she does correct them. But my money will never go to her again. Have a good weekend.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Okay I have to eat my words - I went back to Kumpi - so far Jack is doing awesome! It has been 17 days and NO SEIZURES!!!!! see link below.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...nc-king-kool-friendly-sad-17.html#post2008646


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