# Possible slipped disc



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

My poor dog  A day ago I noticed he was hunched back and had weakness in his back feet. I gave him aspirin in an attempt to ease the pain. I consulted my friend, who's a vet tech, my other friend who's a vet, and my vet... an x-ray may show the actual condition but regardless the treatment is the same... whether he has a slipped, herniated, or disc protrusion  

Since he had aspirin this morning, I will have to wait til tomorrow to start him on Rimadyl ... he's also going in for his first (out of 7) cold laser therapy sessions. I am also considering acupuncture 

Right now I'm just really upset. I don't know what caused it, we played fetch with a ball and we didn't even play that long. He also wasn't jumping...

I've moved his crate upstairs (I haven't used it in forever) and he's going to be on strict crate rest for about 10 days and after that very limited activity for several weeks... I'm sure he's going to absolutely hate it... but at the same time it is making me very upset. 

I doubt it, but maybe, just maybe he just strained something and will be ok  The treatment will still be the exact same (to be on the safe side) but for his well being I really wish that was the case


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Actually, crate rest should last 6-8 weeks, not just 10 days. 8 weeks is best. 10 days is too soon and if the disc material bulges and leaks out (easy to do if they start moving too soon) they'll lose the material and the area will become calcified. Check out the link here for more info. 

Dodgerslist: canine back problem, disc disease, IVDD, ruptured, herniated or slipped disc


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I was told (by my vet) that limited activity (meaning being allowed to walk around the house) was acceptable after about two weeks. However, no running, jumping, stairs, etc etc etc. I will check the link though.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

So sorry! Is there a specialist nearby? Do you have a holistic vet who does laser therapy, chiropractic and acupuncture? I would get him in for acupuncture ASAP. My vet has actually reversed paralysis (because of disc problems) with acupuncture but she says the window is really short. 

You can give Arnica for pain. I wouldn't give Rimadyl without running blood work first. 

Is he eating ok?


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

He's not paralyzed, not by far. And I am looking over the link, all of that is a bit extreme. The issues he's having (at least for what my vet has seen) are common and will actually heal on their own with just limited activity. To prevent them from coming back much more 'work' is needed. :/

I do have a holistic vet within driving distance (about 2 hours) and will be pursuing that. I have 3 vets I consult, and one of them does laser therapy, so we are starting that tomorrow (also the clinic I work at)

Again, he's not paralyzed! He's walking, and WANTS to play but he is not being allowed. He's spending most of his day in the crate other than bathroom breaks. He's absolutely miserable, but it doesn't seem to be in pain (at least, he's stubborn and refusing to show it even in the slightest.. he doesn't yelp, whine, etc etc and he's wanting to chase his ball any time we go outside he stares at the place I keep it). Also, he's been on Rimadyl before. The only reason I haven't started it tonight is because he has Aspirin earlier today :/

When we finally do start back with activity, I'm going to take him swimming to ease him in to it  I'm just upset because of what these next weeks have in store :/


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I didn't mean to imply that he was paralyzed, just that acupuncture can be really helpful. 

Rafi hurt his back (fell hard on his tailbone) and laser therapy really helped with the inflammation. It's great that you will be doing multiple sessions of laser therapy. Rafi still has some back and joint problems and he is getting acupuncture once a week right now. He also doesn't show pain but was getting cranky with other dogs so I knew he wasn't feeling well. After two treatments he is showing considerable improvement. 

When Rafi hurt his back I kept him quiet and did very slow, short walks with him until he was moving better.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I'm sorry about Rafi  

My vet tech friend is going to the acupunturist June 1st, she's going to let me know how it goes and if all checks out I will set him up an appt there soon. I've heard a lot of good this.Gah about the laser, I just really hope it helps


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We went through this on Feb 6th. Grim was always walking just a bit wobbly with neurological signs and when they said crate rest they meant crate rest. Like in crate with the exception of bathroom breaks on lead for about 6 weeks. He and I were miserable.

I feel that the acupuncture and the cold laser along were where we got our most significant gains. He is now retired from working as a cadaver dog but does get to walk about a mile a day and chase a few balls. 

We did do the x-rays but the vet told us that a disk extrusion may not show up there and we would need a myelogram - we opted out. It is terribly depressing. We were told out outcome was pretty good.......his signs are pretty much gone but if he overdoes it they start to return so we walk a fine line........I wish for you a good outcome and do recommend the acupuncture.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Grim was always walking just a bit wobbly with neurological signs and when they said crate rest they meant crate rest. Like in crate with the exception of bathroom breaks on lead for about 6 weeks. He and I were miserable.


Our vet says 6-8 weeks. Closer to 8 weeks is better, if you can manage it. It _is_ very tough. I used an x-pen closed down to about 12x12 or whatever they close down to, it helped the last few Dachshunds we've nursed through it who were not crate trained.

To the OP, we've dealt with 5 back injured Dachshunds and a Basset Hound.. I mean, all but paralyzed, and my own boy _was_ paralyzed when he arrived here, and now he walks. Not great, but he walks!
It is critical to do 6-8 weeks. 
Also ask about Methocarbamol and Neurontin/gabapentin. This combo of meds has worked miracles in the back injured dogs we've had. 
I try to avoid prednisone if at all possible, if I must use it, very minimally, for 2-3 days _max. _


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I work at a vet clinic so I've been discussing the issue with my vet all morning. She did explain that gsd are nothing like doxies or bassetts and the seeverity isn't even comparible. She also thinks it may just be a strain or pull. However, treatment regardless is the same. Crate rest, pain meds, and today we started the first laser therapy session. 

If he's in pain, he's not showing it nor letting it slow him down so keeping him still, even crates, is impossible. I may just have to give him a sedative to keep him still. 

Anyway, I thought it was bad, and all the gloomy posts didn't help much... But my vet thinks he will recovery just fine and i did a phone consult with my other vet and the opinion seems to be the same. N


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am sorry you felt the posts were gloomy and not helpful; I think we were relating our experiences as to what helped and the definition of "crate rest" and suggestions re acupuncture. As soon as my own vet saw neuro signs (toe knuckling) she sent us packing to a specialist.

A lot of chewy things helps with the crate rest, BTW. My dog was NEVER paralyzed, never seemed in pain and always wanted to play FWIW. He just had some neuro issues with the back legs, and is almost normal neurologically, though several unrelated illneses have taken their toll. Often high drive working dogs are hurt and they survive confinement without sedation.

If it is a disc related injury there is a different prognosis than if it is just muscular. I assume since you suggested that it might be that there were neurological signs. 

Acutally the veterinary specialist we saw said that location of injuries in the doxies made them much better surgcal candidates than GSDs with Lumbar extrusions (which he sees a good many of in working police dogs) and that conservative management since we saw improvement was the best course.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Doxies are usually between T-whatever is the last and L-1. 
That's where our dog's is. 
And yeah...gloomy? 
I don't think that's quite correct, maybe you saw them as "gloomy" but I actually mentioned we've never done surgery on a Dachshund yet had many make full recoveries even when fully down! My personal pet, Tristan, was completely down, no anal tone, no wagging or leg movement, and was in a cart, but has since gotten out of the cart and now runs around and walks with the best of them.
I think that's pretty darned encouraging, myself 

Mostly, for my part, I was hoping to impress that you cannot have significant healing in a few weeks with an actual disc injury, because if the jelly like disc material leaks out, the disc will collapse and that's when you get paralyzation. 
Right now you're in the diagnostic stage, during which it's integral to reduce movement, leash walks and crating (or ex-pen if you have one) to get the disc stabilized again and not lose that material in the disc itself.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do think we want to see your chance of sucess maximized and, that said, since someone else may use this thread when looking for adivce. Two things that helped us were

(1) my dogs have always been trained to be quiet in the crate and I sometimes ask them to spend long times in there because they have to at searches and trainings and I don't want them getting worked up.

(2) it was too stimulating for Grim to have his crate in the normal place with me and Beau walking past to go outside, play etc. I put Grim in a darkened room with the TV on low and gave him much to chew on. It absolutely tore me up inside but I figured it was best for him because he was so excited when I let him out or went by.....and now we have adapted how we play because the risk of re-injuring it is high. If he were a young dog, I may have done the MRI to clarify our prognosis for working again, but he is certainly moving around just fine and his progress is chronicled in a thread on the board. As is, at 9, that was going to be his last year as a working cadaver dog anyway..........he just got "early retierment".


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The dogs we've gotten in w/back issues were un-crate trained adults so it was very tough to crate and they'll rub their noses raw trying to get out. We decided the stress of being crated was too much and put them in x-pen. For our own Carlie, even the x-pen was too much and she got herself so worked up from stress (and pain) she got a fever coupled with the back injury, and shaking. 
We had to bring her back to our vet, who did bloodwork and a UA thinking kidney but it was just stress/pain/shaking. She gave her a shot of morphine and switched her meds to the Neurontin (gabapentin)/methocarbamol (muscle relaxant) combo. 
The difference was overnight almost. Within days Carlie was up again and walking. 

See, a lot of the pain of back injury is due to the subsequent muscle spasm. Like in humans, a dog's muscles go into hyperdrive in response to a back problem, because they are trying desperately to stabilize the back to reduce further injury. 
I read about this in humans and basically the only thing one can do when in the throes of back muscle spasms is stop. Bedrest, complete and total bedrest. 
Anything else will cause the muscles to continue to spasm and since it's still all irritated other muscles will join in the effort, and things will just snowball, literally.

The two drugs mentioned reduce pain and muscle spasms, and after a few days on them, it'll seem as if the dog is back to normal, unless there's actual nerve impairment. 
If there's nerve impairment the dog may walk with an unsteady gait and show other neuro symptoms like the paw not flipping back upright if turned over. 

Our Basset hound was back to "normal" within a week and we kept her crated/reduced space for another few weeks after that. I think she spent a total of 4 weeks crated which was not enough, but we kept her quiet and kept her space reduced even after she got out of the crate.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

My total is up to 4 (vet consult wise) and the last one told me to be prepared in case he felt the need to refer me to VT to do an MRI and surgery  I do have x-rays (crappy cell phone pics since we don't do electronic x-rays at the clinic I work at) So I'll post those in a bit.

I have a bottle of Ace in case he gets too wound up in the crate :/ 

He will right his back foot and he has a reaction when his toes are pinched. 

This is miserable. 

What does the future look like? Will he be able to go on offleash hikes? Chase his ball? Play frisbee? He's only 5 years old this month...


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)




----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, gosh you really can't tell yet. I know what you are going through......how is he walking? The righting the foot is a VERY good sign.

You kind of have to take this one day at a time I think and only try to worry about the things you *can* control and think about where you would go given risks and possibilities but try not to get ahead of yourself!

All I can say for mine is that if he does too much, symptoms start to return and we back off and have made tremendous improvement in the past few months to where he *can* play ball and go for walks. Not offlead yet just because I don't want him jumping over anything right yet...

But my dog has some years on yours and has had a rough year healthwise with several injuries and illnesses to weaken him. I am sure age and strength will be in your dog's favor.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Yesterday his stomach was clinched and his back was hunched. Today his back is straighter, his stomach is relaxed, but he shows weakness in the rear legs and if he turns too fast he has to almost catch himself or it seems as though he may topple over. So I'm assuming that's improvement  

He goes in for his second laser treatment on Thursday. 

I'm saddened that even if we get past this he may never be allowed to be the active dog he was before... even now he WANTS to run and play. He's going to be a difficult one to keep calm - although tonight all he's done has been to lay on his bed in his kennel and not make a sound. I've greatly reduced his food - even if he loses weight right now that's fine... :/ Maybe it will get easier as the weeks pass - we haven't even gotten past week one!


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

this issue so hard to deal with. especially in a young active dog. this has happened to me a few times with my gsd's. most of the time the proticol is rest and predisone is usually the drug of choice. i normally would stay away from Preds, but it seems to work better for spinal issues. honestly, once the dogs had this they had huge potential for it happening again. i had to change the lifestyle of each dog. no running for toys, no jumping. i did some chiropractic and accupuncture for maitenence etc. Cold laser is good, it can help the tissue heal, and accupncture can keep the pathways open. massage is always good to keep the blood fllow. 
i also had one who showed a hazy spot on the spine, but it wasn't a disc issue per say, it was a n infection in the spine. Disco Spondylitis, antibiotics do wonders for that. its such a guessing game without the MRI, which is very costly. hope things get better.........


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I would ask to do blood work just to make sure things were going well there, which unfortunately would mean having to take him in again. I would also do a SNAP just to make sure no tick things are involved. 

I will tell you from having blown a couple of disks myself one year - it is very painful and I literally could not walk without a huge production. I was S shaped and would lean against a wall and just kind of crawl-walk. It was unreal. I could not stand up for long, I could not sit. So I basically had to do crate rest for myself. I can't remember how long it took to recover - it was slow. And I took it slowly because I found out that unlike other injuries that I have had (blown ACL, broken elbow) that trying to gut it out and push through it does not work with the back. Had I been a dog in that condition, I would have been PTS I bet! IF I ever (please no) had that severe an issue again, I would up the pain management because, like has been said, that helps to relax the body and allow things to move back together. However, that's not what anyone told me, it just so happened I had an event for work I had to do and I gobbled so many (not OD level of course!) darvocet that I was 2 cane speed walking and woke up the next morning hugely improved. I still don't know why I wasn't given a muscle relaxer. Physical therapy was the thing that worked, in addition to the pain meds.

So when my 15 year old dog, who was feeling extra perky due to chiro and acupuncture treatments, jumped off the deck stairs and twisted his back - after figuring out that was why he was having trouble moving (DUH), I did crate rest him - because he had a mostly fused back I used an indoor kennel set up (he couldn't turn in a crate) with an air mattress. I did with him exactly what I did with me, and he recovered - at 15 with a fused spine - within a month, to where you couldn't tell there was anything wrong and I started carrying him up and down the stairs with a Ruffwear harness after that. Which...he kind of liked, because I would lift and he would jump, so he was still flying off the deck. 

From my own point of view, with my back, I am more careful. If I feel it starting to go (like the top and bottom half of my body are not fully connected) I "crate rest" myself. I refuse to lift things at work that will hurt and if I am carrying in 40# of dog food, I don't do it if my back is feeling futzy. I do have some degenerative disc, so I am careful. The problem with this is with a dog, you will have to be super aware to tell. But again, I think PT can help after the crate rest period. Strengthening his core muscles will help keep his back healthier. The PT vet I go to is not a fan of the GSD back...bad enough that it is so long, but other structural issues further weaken it. 

You do not want him playing frisbee anyway - so that's an easy one to say no to, especially now that you know his back could set up a chain reaction to ligaments. People with back issues feel better moving - it may not be for as long as for others, but exercise every day makes a big difference. Again, a PT vet would be able to help with a plan that will help support that spine. 

The crate rest is magical though - we just have to be willing to impose it for longer than the dog thinks is necessary (like telling a 3 year old they can't run in the lightning).


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

e.rigby said:


> My total is up to 4 (vet consult wise) and the last one told me to be prepared in case he felt the need to refer me to VT to do an MRI and surgery  I do have x-rays (crappy cell phone pics since we don't do electronic x-rays at the clinic I work at) So I'll post those in a bit.
> 
> I have a bottle of Ace in case he gets too wound up in the crate :/
> 
> ...


There's carts for the worst case scenario. The tensed hunched posture means muscle spasms - BAD - in his back.

Please ask the vet to give you neurontin/gabapentin (it's a generic now, FILL it at Walmart, around $10 for a month!) and Methocarbamol which will relax the muscles. The neurontin is the gold standard for nerve pain in dogs as well as humans!
Our own dogs and fosters have turned around completely with the addition of those two drugs...well, actually that's really all we used.
Vets often prescribe Valium and Prednisone and maybe tramadol for pain, but nothing works as well as getting those muscles relaxed.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Today was the third laser therapy treatment... he's slightly better. Not toppling over as much.



















Sunday marks the end of week one...  we have such a long ways to go ...


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What's he on for meds? The laser helped Carlie some but not as much as the meds, plus she got upset about it and it tended to make her worse in a way. 
I did let her lay on my lap (Dachshund) and put a warm rice bag on her back which sometimes helped w/the muscle pain, but again, not as much as the meds.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Virgil is such a well behaved dog, which is why this upsets me even more. I got him from a not so great situation and have been working with him intensively for the past year (this month actually marks our one year anniversary) and so I can pretty much do anything to him and he's ok with it... well, he is not liking the crating too much... but he's learning to just deal with it  which is good but a bit depressing to watch. Taking him to the vet can be an ordeal and I can't kennel him in a run because the other dogs work him up so much (everyone there barks and barks all day long) so I have my own quiet secluded room where there's a crate similar to the one he has at my house and while I'm working he's in there. He's accepted it very well and I don't hear a peep from him. As for the laser, doesn't phase him at all. He seems to actually enjoy it and lays still the entire time. Hopefully this will be a good sign for when we go to the acupuncturist.. 

As far as meds, he's on Rimadyl for pain. It seems to be helping too much because he doesn't act like he's in pain at all... which is great because it reduces the swelling and allows for him to heal, but bad because he wants to go back to his active self


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Virgil is miserable


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Please ask about Gabapentin (neurontin) and Methocarbamol. 
Our Basset went from shaking with pain to romping in just 3 days.
At least give the med combo a try for a few days?

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2764&S=1


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I am curious why you would push pain meds on a dog that's not in any pain. He's miserable because he's on crate rest and only allowed out of the crate on leash .. and only for potty breaks or a quick random pic!


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Does he have things to chew on. Are YOU upbreat with him? I would always let Grim carry around a toy when he got out and that seemed to make him chipper.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

e.rigby said:


> I am curious why you would push pain meds on a dog that's not in any pain. He's miserable because he's on crate rest and only allowed out of the crate on leash .. and only for potty breaks or a quick random pic!





> As far as meds, he's on Rimadyl for pain. It seems to be helping too much because he doesn't act like he's in pain at all.


I guess I got confused because you're administering pain meds right now?? Why is your dog taking Rimadyl if he's not in pain 

Pain is natural with a back injury because the muscles are trying desperately to stabilize the disc that's causing a problem (impinging on the nerves).

If you've ever had muscle spasms in your back then you know what I am speaking about.

Also - if he's fine and not having pain then why is he not allowed to move about?


----------



## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

_I am curious why you would push pain meds on a dog that's not in any pain. _

I also took from your previous post: _Virgil is miserable _ that Virgil is in pain. That might be why she suggested pain medications.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LaneyB said:


> _I am curious why you would push pain meds on a dog that's not in any pain. _
> 
> I also took from your previous post: _Virgil is miserable _ that Virgil is in pain. That might be why she suggested pain medications.


:thumbup: 
He _looks_ miserable.


----------



## Psychedelic Shepherd (Jun 11, 2012)

I had a German Shepherd Cocker Spaniel mix for fourteen years. When he was about four years old he started screaming every time he moved his head. We freaked out, obviously. I carefully picked him up and put him in the car. Mom, Dad and I brought him to the emergency vet. They checked him out but didn't have the equipment to properly diagnose him. They said to bring him to Auburn University in the morning, so my mother drove from Atlanta to Auburn. They gave him an MRI and he had a lateral herniated disc in his neck. They performed an expensive experimental surgery on him. When he got home he wasn't allowed to go upstairs and he had to sleep in his crate all day. That lasted about a month. I slept on the floor in the laundry room with him the whole time. He wore my button down t-shirts to cover his one foot incision. He knew he wasn't well, and was very humble towards our care. Our small Dachshund was really sweet and cautious with him. Snickers recovered well and got to live another ten years! There is light at the end of this dark tunnel. Keep loving and caring for your dog. They want to get better for your sake!
Edit: By the way, I played soft classical music for Snickers while he was on crate restriction. It helped keep him calm while I wasn't there and help sooth me while I was laying on the floor with him. And I was laying with him all day and all night when I wasn't in school.


----------



## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

My 9-year-old yellow lab was hospitalized in October with a herniated disc. He seemed mopey and uncomfortable, but it wasn't until he tried to bite the vet tech at the hospital when the vet palpated his back that we realized how much pain he was in at the time. He was put on tramadol and gabapentin. He has done very well on them. I really thought in Oct. that we would end up having to put him to sleep, but he is doing pretty good now. He has a little difficulty rising after lying down still - probably will be permanent. 

Our regular vet decided to keep him on the drug combo indefinitely as he seems to tolerate it well, and he has no way to communicate to us if he is in pain.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I really thought in Oct. that we would end up having to put him to sleep, but he is doing pretty good now. He has a little difficulty rising after lying down still - probably will be permanent.


This is where we were with Carlie, she was taking valium, or tramadol, I believe, for muscle pain, and something else, I forget what, and it was not helping at all. I think she had a bit of prednisone on board, or something, but I honestly forget. 
We let her lie on our bed because crating and even an x-pen was too stressful for her.
I took her back in all hunched up, she was in so much pain and running a fever, our vet thought she'd developed a kidney infection.
Nope. It was all from the pain. Our vet gave her some morphine and the scripts for the gaba/metho combo - this was after we'd brought her in for euthanasia, because she was in such extreme pain and miserable. 
However, I filled the 'scripts and within days she was back to 'normal', able to move about without pain, like her old self. 

After that, we took in fosters with back injuries, such pain they wanted to nip or bite, and this combination worked miracles, when pred. and tramadol alone did not touch it.

I am considering asking my doctor about the gabapentin for myself since I have a bad disc and often have muscle pain, etc. from a spot of scoliosis in my own back.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

We are one week 3. He was in pain early on. The pain has subsided. I am not coming to an internet forum for medical advice. I WORK at a vet clinic and take him in at least once a week. I am well aware of what my dog needs or doesn't need. He was on pain meds a week ago for pain, however, it was preemptive because he was not in pain around day 3 but I continued with the meds for about 6 - 7 days just in case. 

I posted a picture stating he was miserable. He is miserable because he's been stuck in the crate for three weeks.

The reason he is still in the crate is because he needs time to heal.

A disc extrusion puts pressure on the spinal cord. Not all are the same. Some can be very small and thus take a short time to heal while others can be much larger. There's no real way to tell without an mri and even then it's iffy. So crate rest for 6 - 8 weeks to be on the safe side. 

Even though he feels better and WANTS to run around, he may not be completely healed and if he is not completely healed he can cause a bunch of issues - with the worst case scenario being paralysis of the hind end.

I must say, since this is the internet and everyone is allowed to their opinion - as I am mine... how funny it is that absolutely everyone is quick to insist vet care... which I would be too... however even once a dog has been seen by a vet everyone is then quick to insist they know better than the vet and whatever the op is doing isn't 'good' enough even though they are under the direct supervision of a vet.

Of course, I am in no way saying not to speak your minds... I'm just sitting here laughing at some of the posts.

I am posting to update on his progress. In fact, my original post was never to say 'what should I do' but rather a 'omg I'm so distraught this is happening to my dog' kind of deal.

My random ranty sounding post does not apply to everyone. Honestly. And maybe I'm just in a foul mood because I've had a long day that involved assisting in the removal of the eye of a very young kitten :/ that really sucked. As well as seeing a crazy woman who doesn't know a thing about puppies slowly killing off an entire litter due to ignorance :/ 

On a good note, I got a refill of Ace to help keep Virgil calm..

In his head he thinks he's back to his old crazy happy go lucky self.

I wish I could think like that as well... but I have to remind myself that even though he seems ok... it's better to make him endue 3 more weeks of crate rest than to let him out, have him over exert himself and cause more injury do to not being completely healed.

He never had loss of deep tissue sensation or neurological symptoms. His only 'symptom' was a hunched back and a bit of slowness to his step. That only lasted 3 days though... so in all truthfulness his extrusion was probably VERY small and it's probably healed... I'm just not willing to risk him hurting himself again ... I want him to enjoy the other half of his life!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I realize you don't want to hear it - but that Gabapentin IS really commonly used for this kind of stuff. I know of a dog right now on it - honestly, when I hurt my back if someone had handed me a NSAID (if I could tolerate them) I would have told them thanks but give me something else. I know of another dog who had the spinal surgery and had that and the muscle relaxer listed above before and after. Cornell has an excellent pain management consultation service for vets. When I had my dog there last year, for a surgery so different than a back thing, I specifically said I did not want a NSAID for surgery pain management and they told me that they had completely revamped their protocol and did not use them for that anymore, not sure for all, but small tissue...changed. 

Just because one vet gives you stuff, doesn't mean it's the best stuff for the condition and lots of times I have learned about meds that I had not heard of and ask my vet about them and they will consider them. Tylan is one - now they carry it all the time - I read about it here and thought it sounded better than a month of Metro. When I asked for it they had to special order it. I didn't go out and just get it, or accuse them of anything, or get torqued that they weren't into something I read on the board, I just asked, they researched and considered. They know we talk to other people who see other vets. 

Like ACE - is that the most current thing and best thing to keep a dog quiet? I know I had to get a hyped up foster through heartworm treatment and my one vet researched something specifically for that and it was very different. I didn't learn that one here, but it was new - and worked without the side effects of ACE that are unacceptable for HW treatment, but some vets still use that for it. So maybe changing that would make him a little less miserable. Who knows, but it is good to read, research, ask and consider. It has helped my dogs a number of times! And sometimes I didn't want to do what I was hearing, but it helped.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I realize you don't want to hear it - but that Gabapentin IS really commonly used for this kind of stuff. I know of a dog right now on it - honestly, when I hurt my back if someone had handed me a NSAID (if I could tolerate them) I would have told them thanks but give me something else. I know of another dog who had the spinal surgery and had that and the muscle relaxer listed above before and after. Cornell has an excellent pain management consultation service for vets. When I had my dog there last year, for a surgery so different than a back thing, I specifically said I did not want a NSAID for surgery pain management and they told me that they had completely revamped their protocol and did not use them for that anymore, not sure for all, but small tissue...changed.
> 
> Just because one vet gives you stuff, doesn't mean it's the best stuff for the condition and lots of times I have learned about meds that I had not heard of and ask my vet about them and they will consider them. Tylan is one - now they carry it all the time - I read about it here and thought it sounded better than a month of Metro. When I asked for it they had to special order it. I didn't go out and just get it, or accuse them of anything, or get torqued that they weren't into something I read on the board, I just asked, they researched and considered. They know we talk to other people who see other vets.
> 
> Like ACE - is that the most current thing and best thing to keep a dog quiet? I know I had to get a hyped up foster through heartworm treatment and my one vet researched something specifically for that and it was very different. I didn't learn that one here, but it was new - and worked without the side effects of ACE that are unacceptable for HW treatment, but some vets still use that for it. So maybe changing that would make him a little less miserable. Who knows, but it is good to read, research, ask and consider. It has helped my dogs a number of times! And sometimes I didn't want to do what I was hearing, but it helped.


:thumbup:



> I'm just sitting here laughing at some of the posts.


Dogs are extremely stoic. Your dog could possibly be in pain and you won't even _ask_ your vet about this medication??

Our vet gets her protocols from WSU, one of the leading vet schools in the country, they are the 1st to isolate the MDR1 gene which has saved untold lives that may have been lost due to ivermectin usage. I don't even keep that current but I know they're always researching things and this was the protocol to come straight from them.

My husband is a paramedic and sees many chronic pain humans on the same med (Gabapentin).

We just very recently had a dog with a tail amputation. He was having phantom pains and I took him back for a check up after the weekend had passed, with a request for Gaba for him - since it has worked miracles on our back injured dogs.
The vet came in and actually said she was glad I suggested it, because she was getting ready to prescribe it!
The kicker?? Rimadyl did nothing for the phantom pains - how could it? It's nerve pain. And gabapentin is the new gold standard for this type of nerve pain. 
The gabapentin took a few days to kick in but the dog is fine now and doesn't look at or bite at his non-existent tail any longer.

I truly think you owe it to your dog to try it.



> Like ACE - is that the most current thing and best thing to keep a dog quiet?


Ace isn't really recommended much especially by itself - because dogs are fully aware yet physically incapable of doing anything. It's actually quite distressing to dogs


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Again - I really find it hard to take medical advice from a forum when my dog is under vet care.

Additionally, I live with my dog - I work with dogs in pain all the time - my dog is not in any pain. He is not being 'stoic' he is being upset he cannot run.

Take it for what you will. I'm sure the things you are recommending have worked for you or someone you know - that does not mean they work for everyone or are even necessary. Ace is a good choice for the situation at hand, which is why I'm using it. My dog is no longer on pain medication - he no longer needs it.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know you don't want any advice but could the ACE be depressing the dog? My high drive working dog survived 8 weeks of crating without any drugs to calm him down.


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

He's upset about being crated because of an incident that happened in his past. He was an outside dog at his previous home. They only brought him inside during bad weather .. and even then he had to stay in a crate. One night while he was inside during a storm a tree fell on the house and did a lot of damage to the room he was in while he was stuck in a crate. He freaked out and literally ripped himself up to get out of his crate. He's been horrible in crates ever since that day. So it's not just about him being a high energy dog stuck in a crate.

I've been working with him on crate training for the past year and we made a lot of progress... same thing with the storms. However, we're seriously regressing because of this strict crate rest.

And he's depressed because every time we go outside he thinks he's going to be able to play, he will attempt to spin around on his leash and jump up and down and barks to the trees but then I'll just have to shorten the leash and we only do quick potty breaks. He gets depressed about that and about going back into his crate.

He doesn't fight me to go in, he knows the command and will go right to it and inside. He's exceptionally obedient (as I've spent countless hours working on him since I got him as an untrained, overweight, behaviorally problematic dog)

Anyway... that's his deal. The Ace is to keep him from hurting himself while he's in the crate when he gets worked up. It does a good job but out of the 3 wks he's been in, we've only used 11 25mg pills... so he doesn't get much, and it's only used when he's on the verge of getting wound up!


----------



## rdubb1031 (Jul 24, 2010)

e.rigby said:


> He's upset about being crated because of an incident that happened in his past. He was an outside dog at his previous home. They only brought him inside during bad weather .. and even then he had to stay in a crate. One night while he was inside during a storm a tree fell on the house and did a lot of damage to the room he was in while he was stuck in a crate. He freaked out and literally ripped himself up to get out of his crate. He's been horrible in crates ever since that day. So it's not just about him being a high energy dog stuck in a crate.
> 
> I've been working with him on crate training for the past year and we made a lot of progress... same thing with the storms. However, we're seriously regressing because of this strict crate rest.
> 
> ...


I'm coming in to this late and hopefully didn't miss the answer above, but what is ACE? My GSD is going through a similar situation ( lateral disk) and we are on teh gab/metho combo. The issue is our GSD is super high energy and keeping her calm is nearly impossible. We have her confined to a room which works out fine, but when we are hoping she is usually sitting up vs. laying. Also, when we put her on her leash to go out, she usually pulls and we have hardwood floors so its not pretty. Anyway, Any thoughts on what we can do to calm her down? 

Thanks.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Acepromazine

This is a drug that I personally have never seen do anything that I wanted it to do, and instead seemed to do everything I didn't want it to do. That's just me and the dogs I've seen it used on. I am sure it has to work sometimes! 

I had a foster go through HW treatment who was higher energy, very active, difficult to get to hold still. Dogs need to be kept very quiet during the treatment because the more they move, the more they get their heart rate up, the more likely they will throw a big clot and die. So I was pretty motivated, as were my vets, to find something for her. ACE was not recommended due to the whole heart rate thing. 

So we tried Benadryl - that can work on some dogs to settle them. Then we went to Xanax (I think they linked to Valium in the Mar Vista vet link on ACE). That can also work on some dogs. We started at a lower dose, and moved up. Finally, my vets hit the VIN and found a combo that was recommended there that did settle her down, I think it was an anti-depressant and pain reliever. I tried it to see what it was like and it definitely did what it was supposed to. 

You will definitely need to talk to your vet because of the other meds she is on. I wonder if she's more comfy sitting?

I would also do whatever I could to stop the leash pulling with some training. I'd probably just grab some string cheese, or peanut butter on a long spoon, and walk her across the room with that as a lure. You may find you don't need to add another med! Good luck!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd ask about Valium.
It helps mellow them out. 
Ace - I wouldn't really want to use it in a case like this, either.
I used it for pre-euth. sedation but only in conjunction with xylazine (rompum)


----------



## rdubb1031 (Jul 24, 2010)

Thanks.. We're headed to the vet in about an hour for a check-up.. I'll ask more questions! Actually she is a pretty good walker on the leash. The big thing is she's terrified of baby gates, so when we move it from the door opening she tried to bolt right by. I'll give the treat thing a try, she's typically food motivated.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Depending on where the injury is you may want to switch to a harness.


----------



## rdubb1031 (Jul 24, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Depending on where the injury is you may want to switch to a harness.


We have a harness as well, the issue is its on hardwood floors.. so she slips if there's any tension..


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

OH yeah. Well the only solution there is those throw rugs w/rubber backing :shrug:

Is the dog in an enclosed area though? Crated or an Xpen? They recommend 6-8 weeks of that.


----------

