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## 172954 (Sep 19, 2013)

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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Glad you are working with a trainer. What exactly are they suggesting you do when she shows this behavior? What kind of collar do you walk her on?


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## 172954 (Sep 19, 2013)

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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Been in the same boat....mostly with other dogs on leash. Dogs behind fences used to set her off but they are easily figured out by the dog over a short period of time. I believe the root of my dog's behavior in this department is based on fear...as odd as it may seem at times. I proceeded somewhat as you have ....desensitizing and counter conditioning...it worked to a degree but the results were unacceptable. I incorporated more of an attitude and corrections which hopefully suggested to the dog this is not allowed....a bit more progress was made...but still unacceptable. I then brought a new calm to the party and perhaps even more....I was thoroughly much more educated to the dog's posturing and nuances I had missed previously. The use of certain distractions and lures on my behalf were much more effective in allowing the dog to trust in me to engage in the distractions...and better timing as well...Maybe I got her to a comfort zone where a trade off on drive outweighed her fears perhaps. 

I second guess my process and wonder if I should have done this or that..but if the root of a problem is based on fear...it takes a bit of patience, commitment and real thought to affect positive change. 

The leash can create many a problem but yet the same dog in a dog park...free to engage with limited restrictions is a whole different animal.

SuperG


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Yes. I believe in a positive approach with desensitization. 

I also believe at some point, the dog needs to know the behavior is unacceptable. 

You need to get a handle in WHY she is behaving this way. If the trainer feels it is based in anxiety or fear, then very slow desensitization is a great route. 

If the trainer feels the dog is being a brat, jerk(sorry but at 18 months....) then the dog needs a solid appropriate correction with an immediate reward for cessation of inappropriate behavior. 

I don't think this can be accomplished on a flat collar or harness. 

Find a trainer with lots of GSD experience, maybe even an IPO club, and utilize them to help you through this. 

Speaking from ongoing personal experience. My young boy is lovely with other dogs. He socialized regularly, campfires, wine tastings everything. On a leash, heeling towards another dog. He loses his mind. Acts like a crazy dog killing monster. 

I desperately wanted to go the " I have to work through the anxiety and reinforce the positive route". I really did. Then I went to a phenom seminar and was told. At this point, knowing he is not a dog aggressive dog, he just needs to learn, no matter the reason, this behavior is intolerable. That if I give him a command, no matter what he thinks, he MUST do it. Period. No questions, no second thoughts. And dog aggression is NOT allowed when in a command. 

At some point you just have to say "enough" not allowed nuh uh no flippin way!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

gsdar,

Seems we have both taken a similar approach mostly...

I'm curious...you're on a leashed walk with your dog....dog spots another dog up ahead...do you 1.) proceed while observing dog and let it get near threshold before introducing any modifications 2.) instantly command the dog to execute a sit/stay...down/stay...stand/stay...perform eye contact..etc. 3.) or calmly proceed until you see the dog's gait/posture/body english change in the slightest and then apply commands....or take a detour?

Since I refuse to take a detour, I actively "hunt down" other dogs to apply my training protocol which at this point is a lot of verbal communication/distraction coupled with a tight heel command but still being aware of putting the dog over threshold of course....seems like it is one step closer each time..a slow process...but I'm okay with that. I still use stern correction with the prong if need be but the moment my dog complies she gets positive verbal/physical feedback and at times a food treat.

One thing I have yet to try and wonder if there is any merit to the approach. My girl conducts herself quite adequately on lead and many times I allow her full length as long as there is no pulling/forging. Instead of using the 6 foot lead, I wonder if allowing her more maneuvering room on a 30 foot lead would mentally relax the dog with the additional zone she has to move when encountering other dogs on walks?

My dog is somewhat similar to your dog as you describe him....a bit of a leash monster but off leash she coexists rather well....a bit pushy but a different dog overall compared to the melodramatic actress she is on leash.

I'm convinced it's just a matter of time and consistent proper application to get her where she should be....she's 2 years and change now, behavior started around the 1 year mark or slightly before.

Anyway, your thoughts, successes and failures in your approach to curb this behavior with your boy would be appreciated.


SuperG


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I've come to believe there is a balance between positive training and compulsion. Finding that balance is tough, as it is different for each dog. 

I once saw someone use the term, "frustrated greeter". I know a tight leash creates drive but finding the right amount of slack is tricky. A little means my dog does not depend on my tug on the collar to give him his limits...but too much gives him the opportunity to lunge. We haven't tried the prong yet. I've never had to use one before but I do admit they have their place.

Like you, SuperG, I sometimes look for opportunities to train. I know that there is a two street blocks length that I can get his focus back on me, and I always reward it somehow. So now we are working on shortening that length. We are also starting to work the pups together during IPO classes. I am sure that will help as well.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

From what I understand (largely Pat Miller's writings in Whole Dog Journal) you are going over threshold with your dog and then trying to regain control. What you need to do is keep below that threshold and gradually decrease the threshold. 

Barker the Elder the Second went nuts around vehicles as a pup on lead. I stopped walking her during anything approaching heavy traffic hours (ie during the day) and went to late evening walks. I carried high value treats. When a vehicle was approaching, I called her to me (she was on lead but this got her focus on me), moved so that she was not facing the vehicle, had her sit and focus on me which I rewarded with the treats until the vehicle passed. Soon she got so that she would automatically look to me for a reward when a vehicle was near, then she got to ignore them altogether. I could walk her while a fire truck went passed with siren wailing. 

So what I'm suggesting is that you work at greater distances than what you have been trying and build focus with plenty of rewards.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Leash reactivity. Key is to not let her focus on anything. I spent hours, days, months standing 20 ft away from the door of Petsmart working on leave its and watch me's. Then we would go to the park and do the same. I used high value treats, redirection and a prong. I then moved it to 15 ft then 10 ft, etc. After about 4 months it started to click and he doesn't even need a prong now. Lots of work, time and patience. You take charge and don't let the dog feel any nervousness from you. You are taking that walk and she will follow your lead.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

My previous shepherd Stella did not like dogs, didn't matter whether they were in backyards or leashes. Just like Llombardo, I approached, stopped a safe distance, made her sit, had handfuls of her favorite treats..focus on me, and voila, dog passed safely. As for the backyard dogs, we stood close to but not at the fence, again, treat focus. Got to a point we didn't need treats, and we could walk by leashed dogs with focus.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

So I personally do a mixed bag if things. 

Right now, because I am actively working on a specific issue, I don't avoid other dogs. I am aware where they are and actively put my dog in a command. Usually Fuss, but at a stand still. I want his focus on me not moving, not the other dog. Once I have that focus we move on, he gets praised. 

So if I am just having a lazy walk and come across another dog. I stop. Get him into fuss, get that attention, and when the other dog passes we move forward. I don't do a huge play session for reward. I don't want him that level of excitement. I want another dog to mean calm and look at me. 

However, I will also go to parks, be around other dogs and work on movement and heeling, where there is no possibility of going over threshold. 

I don't ever let my dog get close enough to threshold. I stop him before his body language changed to that point I don't want to be playing catch up. If I don't think he is in a place, or I am not prepared, I turn around and leave the area.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I tell you it's the best feeling in the world when you conquer it. I was always good at reading a dogs body language but I got even better at it with Midnite


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Lots of interesting approaches and applications...gives me food for thought. Thanks for the input and hopefully the OP will get some benefit from this as I have.

SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Same problem with my pup. She's doing well on leash in the neighborhood but when I take her to the "crazy boulevard" (small shopping district 1/2 block from my house) she automatically starts straining on the leash. You can feel her tension level increase dramatically thru the leash.

When we pass people she goes nuts wants to jump all over them. I've been putting her in a sit and holding on to her collar when they pet her so she can't jump on them. We passed out first other dog on leash yesterday on the crazy boulevard. She barked right in this dog's face for quite a while. It was a friend with his dog and he knew it was her first encounter. Worked out great. We just talked pleasantly she calmed down and pretty much ignored the other dog.

I will start packing treats today to start on the focus training in that hectic environment. I'm going to ask strangers not to pet her until I can get her under control with the jumping up.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I also want to add that aggression, fear, and frustration can manifest like this IMO. I was pretty confused about which one it was with mine and ended up figuring it out on accident. When I got him I lived in an apartment and each dog was walked individually. I was running behind so I had my son walk Robyn my female Gsd. As they came around the corner he barked lunged and acted like he wanted to kill her. I knew he got along with her well so it caught me off guard and I felt better knowing it was frustration. It actually made me more relaxed when I was working with him, I would never want to see any dog hurt and know my dog was responsible. The change came when my attitude changed..I became more in charge and had no fear.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Same problem with my pup. She's doing well on leash in the neighborhood but when I take her to the "crazy boulevard" (small shopping district 1/2 block from my house) she automatically starts straining on the leash. You can feel her tension level increase dramatically thru the leash.
> 
> When we pass people she goes nuts wants to jump all over them. I've been putting her in a sit and holding on to her collar when they pet her so she can't jump on them. We passed out first other dog on leash yesterday on the crazy boulevard. She barked right in this dog's face for quite a while. It was a friend with his dog and he knew it was her first encounter. Worked out great. We just talked pleasantly she calmed down and pretty much ignored the other dog.
> 
> I will start packing treats today to start on the focus training in that hectic environment. I'm going to ask strangers not to pet her until I can get her under control with the jumping up.


Always put the dog in a sit before they get any pets. Once they realize they aren't getting any attention unless they sit something clicks. All of mine automatically sit when any person is approaching, no commands or treats needed.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

There are many problems here...

If you are sold on strictly using positive reinforcement the process is very long. All positive trainers often dont see the full pictre, but that is another topic of discussion. Sometimes you may never get it completely right. It will involve not going to the dog park anymore and building engagement first (Still all positive methods, dont worry). The dog park is reinforcing the bad behaviour... He wants to be with the other dogs so badly, that he doesn't care about you... No food treat is going to convince him that he should listen at this point in time... The interest in the other dogs is too strong of a motivator... Its like trying to force feed a child an ice cream when he is playing his favourite game with his friends.... Its not going to happen. 

You need to build engagement with your dog. Forrest Micke has a very good lecture at leerburg.com on doing this.
https://leerburgonlineuniversity.com/Course/view/44

Your dog needs to be more interested in you than his surroundings. This is a gradual process... You start in maybe your kitchen, or some other sterile environment, (No distractions-No scents-No smells, nothing to distract the dog from you) Maybe move into your lounge... Then move to your back yard... If the dog is being distracted and not engaging in training you take a step back... to a more sterile environment and slowly and gradually generalise the behavours/training etc.

Before you progress to different environments you need to constantly make sure the dog is not being distracted and is engaging with you... You set up the dog to succeed, and you dont allow him to become conditioned to behaviours you dont want.

Sorry there is no easy solution to this. 

Also have other people ignore the dog intentionally... Only you pet the dog. You still socialise the dog... But you make other people 'less interesting' than you to the dog. He is being overstimulated by his surroundings.

Here is one of my favourite video's I post often with forrest micke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ibXR7w9F1M&list=FLUo3S9MHWclfgfppfZXs1qw

Notice how the dogs are constantly looking and engaging with him and not distracted by each other...
This is a long process. You cant just correct this behaviour. It has elements of good management, engagement and eventually even corrections to get the dogs looking like the youtube video. But with the correct trainer and management is possible.

What people dont realise is that they just want to fix behaviours and still let their dogs engage in all the fun stuff... Dogs need to earn their fun time... And obey your rules. You need to control everything... if they are already engaging in bad behavoiurs... Its hard to go back...

The easier way would be to use a prong collar... I dont believe in this though... At least not off the bat... You need to put in the work... Then correct the dog. You cant correct a dog for something you have allowed him to get conditioned to. Its too easy.. And builds a bad relationship with your dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> There are many problems here...
> 
> If you are sold on strictly using positive reinforcement the process is very long. All positive trainers often dont see the full pictre, but that is another topic of discussion. Sometimes you may never get it completely right. It will involve not going to the dog park anymore and building engagement first (Still all positive methods, dont worry). The dog park is reinforcing the bad behaviour... He wants to be with the other dogs so badly, that he doesn't care about you... No food treat is going to convince him that he should listen at this point in time... The interest in the other dogs is too strong of a motivator... Its like trying to force feed a child an ice cream when he is playing his favourite game with his friends.... Its not going to happen.
> 
> ...


I can agree with almost everything here except the last part. Adding the prong can help control the dog and can be used with other methods. Some dogs don't even need to be corrected, having the prong on is enough. Everything kinda had to go together. Yes you can work on things at home but most dogs will do great at home, the outside world is the challenge. You can set the dog up to succeed with distractions at a distance moving closer. You have to know your dog and the distance to start.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I can agree with almost everything here except the last part. Adding the prong can help control the dog and can be used with other methods. Some dogs don't even need to be corrected, having the prong on is enough. Everything kinda had to go together. Yes you can work on things at home but most dogs will do great at home, the outside world is the challenge. You can set the dog up to succeed with distractions at a distance moving closer. You have to know your dog and the distance to start.


Having the prong on is a correction in itself... If the dog jumps out... He is self correcting himself... 

I said you start with no distractions, and then gradually increase the distractions... You set up the dog to succeed. You condition him to be engaged with you... You dont condition the distractions.
The ultimate goal is to train with distractions. Basically to train outside... Essentially you will eventually and hopefully become more interesting that the distractions... So the distractions are no longer really Distractions.. Just part of the envornment.
We are saying the same thing


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I disagree that the prong is inherently a correction. I have seen and used it as a drive builder. It is not solely for a quick pop. Neither is the ecollar solely for shocking the dog when it does something wrong. They can be used to place pressure on a dog. Like a leg on a horse.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I disagree that the prong is inherently a correction. I have seen and used it as a drive builder. It is not solely for a quick pop. Neither is the ecollar solely for shocking the dog when it does something wrong. They can be used to place pressure on a dog. Like a leg on a horse.


I dont think using the prong collar as a drive builder is a good approach.
A harass would be better.

It desensitises the dog's neck. You need this sensitivity for obedience training.

Could be wrong on this. I guess each dog is different. Excluding a method i dont know much about is not something I would do...

However in replying to the thread starter.. She wants Obedience advice... Not bite-work... Why would you want to build drive to stop a dog lunging at other dogs/people?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lykoz said:


> I dont think using the prong collar as a drive builder is a good approach.
> A harass would be better.
> 
> It desensitises the dog's neck. You need this sensitivity for obedience training.
> ...



Don't dismiss something or a way of doing something you are ignorant on. 

Drive is important in everything. I want a dog DRIVEN to do obedience. It's not meant to be dull and flat. I want a dog that pushes me for things. I want a dog that gets happy working with and for me. It all drive. Pack drive. 

Why would you not want to use the natural drives and instincts to train. 

I am not against operant condition, positive methods, clicker training. I utilize them a lot. But I have plenty more tools in my box.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I disagree that the prong is inherently a correction. I have seen and used it as a drive builder. It is not solely for a quick pop. Neither is the ecollar solely for shocking the dog when it does something wrong. They can be used to place pressure on a dog. Like a leg on a horse.


Also are you sure when you saw this happen the prong collar was not fitted in reverse? I.e. the flat part on the dogs neck?

Prong collars can break off... If the dog intensifies his pursuit of the bite the prong collar can break... The timing here is immaculate... As as the dog puts in maximum effort to get to the target... The prong suddenly breaks...

Its a perfectly timed release and drastically intensifies drive.

Also did not dismiss anything... I said clearly that I could be wrong.. Did you not read that part? Why call me ignorant...
I said clearly: 

"Could be wrong on this. I guess each dog is different. Excluding a method i dont know much about is not something I would do..."

I would eagerly like to read some information in another thread on the matter if you care to share.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lykoz said:


> Also are you sure when you saw this happen the prong collar was not fitted in reverse? I.e. the flat part on the dogs neck?
> 
> Prong collars can break off... If the dog intensifies his pursuit of the bite the prong collar can break... The timing here is immaculate... As as the dog puts in maximum effort to get to the target... The prong suddenly breaks...
> 
> ...



Yes I am sure. I put it on the dog. And it was not in bite work. 

And no I did not miss what you wrote. You just seem super insistent on arguing against something you admit to not knowing much about.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Yes I am sure. I put it on the dog. And it was not in bite work.
> 
> And no I did not miss what you wrote. You just seem super insistent on arguing against something you admit to not knowing much about.


First you said you saw it... Then you did it? So which is it? Did you make it up? or did you see it?

I know that using the prong as a 'pressure device' as you said can potentially desensitise a dogs neck. This can make obedience training harder.

I will stand by that.

Not saying that the prong cant have other uses. Thats the way ive been led to believe it is used.
As I said before. I dont shut down any idea... A tool can have multiple uses.
Each human action has benefits and detractions.

Its a weigh up on each dog... There is no systematic approach to approach every single type of dog... Each dog is differnent. And how we use the prong will influence that...

As per the thread starter problem she will not be trying to necessarily increase drives in the dog...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lykoz said:


> First you said you saw it... Then you did it? So which is it? Did you make it up? or did you see it?
> 
> I know that using the prong as a 'pressure device' as you said can potentially desensitise a dogs neck. This can make obedience training harder.
> 
> I will stand by that.



I have seen, I have done, I have dreamt, I have thought, I have witnessed, I have tried, I have accomplished, I have read, I have watched. Does that cover all the verbs you need. Don't call me a liar. You don't want to go there. 

I have never had a dog desensitized to a prong due to proper use. In fact, while I do use when when needed I don't always. It's a tool. Not to be replaced or instead of solid training. Used correctly and withbrewardcsndvacconplishment intertwined, the less force and pressure are needed. Done correctly, the corrections do not get harder and stronger, they get fewer and lighter. Because the dog learns what It means and what makes it stop and what happens when it does.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Backing up a little bit "If you are sold on strictly using positive reinforcement the process is very long. " Gonna disagree on this one. Depends on the dog, depends on what you consider 'very long.' A few weeks. Not instant because you work up gradually. However - helps build the relationship I want with my dog and sure took care of what we were concerned about.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I have seen, I have done, I have dreamt, I have thought, I have witnessed, I have tried, I have accomplished, I have read, I have watched. Does that cover all the verbs you need. Don't call me a liar. You don't want to go there.
> 
> I have never had a dog desensitized to a prong due to proper use. In fact, while I do use when when needed I don't always. It's a tool. Not to be replaced or instead of solid training. Used correctly and withbrewardcsndvacconplishment intertwined, the less force and pressure are needed. Done correctly, the corrections do not get harder and stronger, they get fewer and lighter. Because the dog learns what It means and what makes it stop and what happens when it does.


Don't threaten me.
I didn't call anybody a liar. 
I was implying as to weather you made up the technique?
I earlier asked you how you saw it being used... Because you clearly stated you SAW IT! Then when I asked how it was you saw it being used... i.e. Flat side on dog or prongs on dog... You replied I FITTED IT! So in Fact you didnt SEE it You DID IT. You cant self/justify something because you yourself are doing it. It's equivalent to a single opinion based on nothing. 

Clear enough for you?

My information comes from Cindy Rhodes. Thats why i don't use a prong to build drive. I respect her opinion.
Am willing to hear other opinions. However simply asked for the source of where you saw it... And how you came about that school of thought. I was looking for reading material, and justifications.. Not just the word of an anonymous forum user. Only professional dog trainers can self-justify... And even then we need to take a step back and do some of our own reading a research... So much varying information.

Its all about having a logic and though process behind why you are doing something.

I dont expect such trolling from a moderator.
Im done with you.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lykoz said:


> I didn't call anybody a liar.
> I was implying as to weather you made up the technique [\QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

lady.kayura--

First of all, this forum has a lot of good information and many posters have years of experience with GSDs. That said, I am not in any way, shape, or form qualified to give any advice. 

I will tell you my experience.

When the dog is lunging and barking I am in the bubble with the dog and it is happening to me, too.
I personally don't think there is one size fits all, each individual dog needs remedies tailored to it.
My job is to gather information from trainers, people on this forum, etc., and process their info with an open mind. 
I can implement more than one philosophy in addressing dog reactivity.
Each person I sought help from had a piece of the puzzle.
I know my dog better than anyone. My whole life revolves around him.

Simon is 10.5 months old and in the last two months really escalated with barking and lunging.

llombardo gave me the piece that said she did lot of different things to remedy the situation and she gave me the main problem: FOCUS. Others also stressed this. I have one problem: focus.

Vandal gave me the piece that a GSD trainer should assess the situation and I went to a GSD breeder and AKC obedience judge. She told me to never use a prong again and to use a choke chain. She also said to get Simon into herding ASAP. She said his drives are kicking in and he wants to work. She said he would be fine with e-collar training.

Lou Castle (Lou Castle.com) gave me clear protocols on teaching basic obedience with an e-collar. The recall and the sit is vital for focus. The Dogtra 2300 has 127 levels--my dog's working level is 5--so very humane!! Lou is very responsive to emails from anyone. I joined his forum.

Lots of people say up the obedience!! I have worked daily on obedience and engagement since Simon was 9 weeks old--now I use an e-collar to teach and proof the reliability.

I have signed up with a behaviorist to take a Reactive Rover class for counter conditioning. I may just go myself as I am convinced it is too dangerous to put my boy in a head collar. I could get some great into there.

I am auditing an intermediate obedience class so I am getting trained up to go home and work with my dog. It is a behaviorist class with click and treat.

The GSD AKC obedience trainer said I could bring my boy to open practices for $5 and have him learn to chill out with other GSDs.

I think my boy has leash frustration. Schutzhund trainer said he is definitely not dog aggressive. Plays great off leash.

All of the above continues to make me more confident (Vandal really addressed this with me) in doing the best I can for my dog. i have to trust me and Simon that we will resolve this. Best of luck to you! I don't know where I'd be without this forum!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> Backing up a little bit "If you are sold on strictly using positive reinforcement the process is very long. " Gonna disagree on this one. Depends on the dog, depends on what you consider 'very long.' A few weeks. Not instant because you work up gradually. However - helps build the relationship I want with my dog and sure took care of what we were concerned about.


Its not that long if you have done everything correctly from crate training.. To building engagement... Its not that long if you have managed the dog well..
If you have made yourself the most important aspect of its life...

With a dog that has been conditioning itself to unwanted behaviour for some time... And using only positive reinforcement... It can take some time...

At the end of the day it depends on the dog... How it was managed...

Correcting conditioned behaviours always takes longer than Establishing it right in the first place...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lykoz, have you ever used a prong collar? just curious


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Lykoz, have you ever used a prong collar? just curious


No I haven't.

Doesn't change the fact that I have read more material on its correct use from responsible sources that most idiots that use them without knowing what they are doing. There is a big taboo from where I am from. People never like to see prong collars on dogs. 

I believe in education before action. If I ever use it, I will be able to justify its use completely and provide reasoning behind it.

I will admit I always used more of an all positive approach with my dogs..
First i believed in severe corrections ONLY when the dogs livelihood was in danger..
Now I believe in fair corrections once they internalise the command.

People find a dog trainer... And just follow blindly...
I have realised that professional dog trainers disagree more with each other than anybody else.

I collect information systematically and broaden my knowledge.
My dogs have done pretty well without a prong collar.
Does not mean I disagree with its use... As long as it is done correctly. When I do use a prong collar my theory will be flawless.

Unfortunately people are constantly just acting on their dogs without any empirical logic or structure.

They do it because some guy told them...

To be honest I don't care if you think less of my opinion. That is obviously the intent of your question.

I can tell you there is vast knowledge available. You absorb things then act.

I have plenty of training tools and don't need to rush to use the prong collar.
I think its a quick fix for many people.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> Its not that long if you have done everything correctly from crate training.. To building engagement... Its not that long if you have managed the dog well..
> If you have made yourself the most important aspect of its life...
> 
> With a dog that has been conditioning itself to unwanted behaviour for some time... And using only positive reinforcement... It can take some time...
> ...


Well that's not really fair to say if a person did it correctly from the beginning. All dogs are different. Even people with the best of knowledge can have set backs but that doesn't really mean they didn't do something correctly. These dogs are smart and they are thinkers. 

As far as the prong, I was not in favor of it. At first I was told he was not a candidate for it. I deal with mostly if not all positive trainers. I wanted my dog to succeed so I used everything available to me and it worked well. I never put the prong on by itself, mine have choke collars that are a couple inches bigger then their neck and it's for safety, in case the prong comes off. 

A prong is not a quick fix, it is a tool. My female was trained on a flat collar without a problem. It depends on the dog.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Well that's not really fair to say if a person did it correctly from the beginning. All dogs are different. Even people with the best of knowledge can have set backs but that doesn't really mean they didn't do something correctly. These dogs are smart and they are thinkers.
> 
> As far as the prong, I was not in favor of it. At first I was told he was not a candidate for it. I deal with mostly if not all positive trainers. I wanted my dog to succeed so I used everything available to me and it worked well. I never put the prong on by itself, mine gave choke collars that are a couple inches bigger then their neck and it's for safety, in case the prong comes off.


Wasn't trying to be hypocritical.

I agree with everything you are saying.
Nobody does everything correctly with their dogs!...
I didn't mean it as an insult.
And yes every dog and situation is difficult...
If everything was flawless every dog would be perfect, and a world champion...
We all have problems to face...

I was replying to another comment that said: it doesn't take long to build engagement. I simply stated that if you do everything right... its easier than if you dont and the dog already has unwanted behaviours.
My point was that changing conditioned unwanted behaviours is a lot harder on a dog that hasnt gone through systematic training.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

llombardo said:


> A prong is not a quick fix, it is a tool. My female was trained on a flat collar without a problem. It depends on the dog.


I agree...
However Some people do use it as a quick fix, and sometimes destroy the relationship with their dog even though they get results...

There is a systematic process in using these tools..

Its not a case of one size fits all..
Most people unfortunately see a problem and just get a prong to fix it....

They see the prong as a solution...

Like you said the prong is a tool.. The solution is how you use it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I asked because I was curious so please don't assume what the 'intent' of my question was. 

We all have opinions and we don't have to agree with each other, it's about the delivery I guess.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I asked because I was curious so please don't assume what the 'intent' of my question was.
> 
> We all have opinions and we don't have to agree with each other, it's about the delivery I guess.


Was my assumption wrong? Please answer as honestly as I did to your question...

I agree we all have opinions.. I am always ready to change mine...
A few years ago I would have said that prong collars are abusive... 

Its what I was led to believe... by professional dog trainers...

I dont take anything for a fact these days... Especially in the dog training world.

I apply and try to find the most reliable information, think critically and decipher this huge mess, and opinion based environment... 

People who use certain training methods will die by their approach... They often never change it... 

I see change as good.. And can only learn through active debate as well as, reliable material...

opinions, views are great... But we need a WHY attached to these questions... With a reliable scientifically viable justification...

If somebody cant provide that... I question why they are using that methodology to begin with.

You cant do anything effectively if you cant justify why you are applying it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

honestly YES your assumption was wrong about my "intent" on asking if you ever used a prong collar. 

I asked because you posted like you had first hand experience with a prong and was against using them, but didn't come out and say "I've used a prong I don't like them" so I wasn't sure if you 'had' tried one.

I've used a prong collar while training a couple of my hard headed shepherds, and found that it did not kill their drive, damage our relationship, or anything negative . It told them I meant business (as in do not pull my arm out of the socket for example) and when they got the message, a prong was no longer needed. 

As one said, and I agree, I find it a training tool when needed, IF it's needed. When it's no longer needed, you phase it out.

Depends on the dog, depends on the trainer, some dogs are much more hard headed, tough, whatever word you want to use, and a combination of training needed, again depending on the dog. I use what works for an individual dog, obviously barring harsh physical corrections.


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## ImJaxon (Jan 21, 2013)

Try to run out a bunch of the energy before you take the dog out for a walk. When GSD have all their energy still available they are far harder to deal with. Before I take Jaxon out to walk, I run him in the backyard with a tennis ball, end to end in the yard 10-15 passes up and down the yard so he gets some of that energy out. It seems to focus him more on me and less on expending that energy and being all over the place. We work with a trainer and this is what he suggested as well. It works for us.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ImJaxon,

I kind of laughed when I read your idea....because I do it exactly the opposite of you. I take a hike with the dog and then play a 20 minute session of frisbee with the dog when we get back. 

Since I have a somewhat dog reactive shepherd while on leash, I'm going to do exactly as you suggested....plus it makes infinite more sense than the way I have been doing it. Maybe taking some of that piss and vinegar out of her first with a spirited game of frisbee will help out more than I might have thought.

SuperG


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lady.kayura my suggestion is to use the Ecollar to teach a recall and the sit to your dog as if she had never had any training at all, per the articles on my site. HERE'S THE RECALL. AND HERE'S THE SIT. 

When you do this problems of the kind that you mention, often just disappear. But even if they don't, and in your case, since the dog has the habit of getting overexcited, it may not, you can always control the dog's behavior. 

And while I'm here, this disagreement about the pinch collar seems to me to be absurd. Here we have one member with EXTENSIVE experience in using it and who recommends it for this issue. We also have one member who admits that he's NEVER used it but _HAS READ EXTENSIVELY _ about it, and he recommends against it, citing his reading as the authority and even dropping a name for support. If the name dropped wants to come here and support that position, I'm sure that all will welcome her. But until and unless that happens, dropping the name is worthy of a laugh and nothing more. 

This is nothing new. One problem with the Internet is that it gives everyone, from the complete novice, to true experts in the field, the same voice. It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, especially for a relative newcomer to the field. I suggest that if someone's only experience with a tool is having read about it, their opinion is worth far less than those of us with years of personal experience with it. Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But the value of that opinion, as far as taking advice, should be weighed based on the relative education, training and experiences of those giving the advice.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok, back to the original question. I have a dog aggressive dog that goes nuts on the leash at other dogs. A prong ramped her up. The e-collar helped her.

So when my puppy started it, out of excitement not aggression, the advice I was given was put a nylon choke on him. I applied pressure exactly twice without saying a word to let him know that his action brought a correction that took his breathe away for a split second and told him he didn't get to do that. End of story. I haven't used the choke for anything else again.

You do what works with your dog. Here are the tools. My advice is shut down the reaction immediately. Use counter conditioning to change the behavior. It's not about the correction. It's about regaining your dog's focus.

I think, even more important than the tools used, is that you need to take yourself out of the equation when you are applying the correction. It's not about you. It's about the dogs reaction. Don't confuse the issue for them by bringing yourself into the equation.

I hope that made sense.


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