# EPI and breeding



## chruby

Would like to hear the opinion of breeders and non breeders on the topic of EPI and breeding. If you own both a male and female that have produced EPI progeny would you breed either dog again? Assuming that the original pair would NOT be bred but also knowing they are both carriers as it takes both a male and female carrier to produce EPI pups. 

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this? Would you breed the male or female again to a different partner? As puppy buyer's would you purchase a puppy from a known carrier bred to a dog that has not been identified as a known carrier?


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## angelaw

Either one would have to be a really awesome dog with lines I couldn't find somewhere else (unlikely). EPI isn't like an allergy. It's much worse, imo. I wouldn't knowingly buy a puppy from a known carrier. To produce pups with EPI or megaE then to sell them to an unsuspecting public (while you know they are carriers) is unethical, imo. People are looking for healthy pets, not ones known to produce sick ones.


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## chruby

I agree with you Angela.







There is a post on another board that prompted this question for me. 

I have an EPI dog also.


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## jesmagmisty

After having an EPI dog (RIP Jazzi) I would beg them not to. I was lucky because I did the research and figured out what was wrong with Jazzi and had the vet test. She went downhill so fast in that two weeks. Another week and we would have lost her at that time. I don't believe just everyday pet owners would have a clue but because I am here on this board and others I knew what symptoms were. To this day many vets are very uninformed of this disease.
I'd say to knowingly breed a dog that pups could suffer (starve)and die would be horrible. I'm not saying people would intentionally let their dog suffer, just that it takes a dedicated owner to search what is going on and that sometimes takes a LOT of time and possibly money at the vet. Many people can't or won't spend the type of money that all of us do to keep our dogs healthy. Most of us on here are informed owners but I can guarantee the people down the road from me with a GSD in a kennel, gets fed and watered, never out and never any attention....would they care?? NO...they used to have hunting dogs, one wasn't feeling well so they turned it out to die.
After we had Jazzi on her enzymes she was fine for several years until she died from something else. It was expensive for the enzymes and time consuming for fixing her food. Did we care, nope, she was our girl and greatly loved. It was just a way of life for us. As soon as she was healthy again, she was spayed.
If bred, they would just be putting a litter of pups out there that may needlessly suffer. Most breeders I know care about their pups and would never want that for them.
Robbie


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## chruby

We have quite a few breeders on the board and only one response??









How about potential puppy buyers?


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## Heidigsd

> Quote:How about potential puppy buyers?


I have also been following this topic on the other board. I will eventually get another puppy and I am very concerned about EPI. After dealing with Heidi's multiple health issues over the last thirteen years, I am almost to the point of not wanting another dog.

I would like to know how breeders screen stud dogs they are planning on using for their females. Do you just rely on the stud owners honesty? Or do they not worry about it because they know that their female is not a carrier? 

Michaela


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## lhczth

We have to rely on the stud owners honesty and the information through the grapevine (which can be false as often as it is true) then pray that nothing unplanned shows up in our litters. 

When they find the genetic marker(s) than it may make things easier. 

Would I use a dog again that has produced EPI? It would have to be an exceptional animal. If they produced a second case when bred to a second unrelated dog that dog would be retired from breeding. And, yes, I realize many will disagree with me. We take chances every time we breed.


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## WiscTiger

OK, Not a breeder (maybe some day yes - maybe no), but as someone who has purchased 4 GSD's I would run away from a pup that has parents that have produced EPI pups. I would rather deal with Slightly dysplastic hips/ DJD elbows and allergies before EPI or Mega-E. These pups could have the best temperament the best conformation and I wouldn't purchase. 

In a breed that has a pretty large list of problems why would you intentionally breed dogs that have already produced EPI pups.

I can see what Lisa is saying to try with a different mate and see waht happens, That is a slight possiblity.

Val


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## SunCzarina

Back before the net, I had an EPI dog. Rex was a wonderful dog but if I had access to the information out there today, I never would have taken him home. 

TO make matters worse, he had a long list of other issues. By the time EPI was diagnosed,I felt like his breeder had gotten sick of hearing from me. As in, she didn't care her dogs were throwing EPI pups, she was in it for the money.


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## Rhino

After just losing my partner to complications of EPI I am totally against breeding EPI positive dogs.

It is not ever day we find the type of dog that will pass our certifications and to have one get sick or die prematurely is a blow to not only me but the people that count on us.

Having an EPI dog has put one nasty taste in my mouth about the breed.


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## LisaT

I was also going to mention that EPI isn't just an isolated issue. There are complications that do come with it. Some dogs seem to do great with replaced enzymes, but many do have lifelong problems. Add to that, how many folks out there (including vets) let dogs go undiagnosed, some because they don't know better, and then the health problems compound.


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## Baby Byron

Byron was an EPI dog. There was never enough food for him poor thing. Fortunately he lived ok with the enzymes and rigorous meal times. You can't be late for the EPI dog's meal. Even with the supplements, extra protein in his food, high quality food, and annual tests with us monitoring him constantly you could see every bone in that dog. It was awful to take all the sheps for a walk because every set of eyes out in the street would look at him and then at us with question marks in their faces. He had this constant energy drive (because of the constant degradation metabolism upregulated and therefore high adrenaline all the time). We had two-hour play time (intense playtime) twice a day and he could go longer. His anxiety levels were sky-high because of the constant lack of satiety and high adrenaline.
I think breeders should remove parents that yield EPI offspring from their breeding program. I know several other EPI GSDs that had way worse quality of life than Byron and perished terribly. Not fun for the dog, not fun for the family. Byron's condition appeared soon after he turned 13 months and I had to fight tooth and nails to convince the vet to test him. Somehow they don't see enough EPI cases to spot it right away. 
I know it's a shame when you have an awesome dog and you want to continue that line (grew up in a GSD breeder family) but we shouldn't continue a line once we know such gene is recurring. Please don't.
Ana


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## emjworks05

Do breeders test for this gene in their dogs before they breed them? JUst curious on how that works.


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## shepherdbydesign

Churby As you know we have an EPI female here and as soon as she was dianosed with EPI she was spayed. you are right that it takes both male and female to pass this on, So my question would be to the breeder of this girl " Why are you still breeding the sire to my girl after the fact that I have called and discussed this matter with her" . I even asked this woman to help place this girl and got no comment. This is why we do health tests on all our males and females so this doesn't happen to a person or persons. With us here I don't take that chance breeding either dog that would carrier. Just like a dog that has allergies or other possible problems


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## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: Emjworks05Do breeders test for this gene in their dogs before they breed them? JUst curious on how that works.


Hope this helps!

Found:
Canine EPI is suspected to be caused by recessive genes, but it is still unclear if it is one gene or multiple loci. Possibly a polygenic inheritance (traits vary in degrees of severity of the disease). In 2005 researchers have honed in on 5 suspect genes, but further testing was needed. In 2007 Texas A&M Canine Genetics was awarded a grant by AKC-CH to further EPI research with the new SNP technology that can analyze multiple loci. Hopefully genetic markers will be identified in the next few years so the testing for carriers can be done prior to breeding.


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## emjworks05

OK so what i got from this is that there is no testing that can be done to identify a carrier before you breed. So when you breed your taking a chance that pups from the litter can turn out with EPI? But do breeders run a test to identify wheather their male/female has EPI before they actually breed the dog?

ETA: Thanks, that info did help!


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## angelaw

Yes you are taking your chances. As far as I know either a dog has EPI or it doesn't. As there are no genetic testing available yet, you wouldn't know if a dog was a carrier. So you couldn't identify if the dog is a carrier before breeding. If the dog has EPI, it would have symptoms. I've not heard of a dog having epi and being fine? 

So I'm not sure that even if a dog that has EPI if it had been tested for EPI before it demonstrated symptoms if it would have actually tested positive for it before it came down with it... if any of this makes sense.


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## emjworks05

It totally makes sense, you answered and my question exactly. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me!


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## LisaT

Along the same lines as the explanation above - I believe that a dog that develops EPI has slowly declining TLI values over time, and that the changes in the EPI test will also correspond to the symptomatic changes in the dog. 

It's almost as if these dogs "run out of steam" in terms of producing enzymes some dogs seem to show symptoms much earlier than other dogs, and I bet that is also a genetic thing too.


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## shepherdbydesign

Lisa To pick your brain a bit. I was told that a dog will start to show symtoms within the first 2 years. Is this right? I know that with our Sasha, we purchased her from another breeder when she was pregnant and for some reason the idiot didn't know that she was sick in the first place. She gave birth to 3 healthy pups but she looked like ****. We then did a test on her and found that she had EPI. At that point we spayed her and held onto the pups for almost a year to see if they would show any signs of EPI and none to this day have it but also are considered a carrier of it since their mother has it.


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## chruby

A friend's dog was just diagnosed last week. The dog is 4 years old but has been having symptoms for 6 months and they just finally figured out what it was. She gained 5 lbs in 2 weeks now that she is on enzymes. 

So it can pop up after the age of 2 years.


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## angelaw

EPI can manifest anytime from a young pup to an elderly dog, the severity and symptoms of the disease can be different with each dog.


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## shepherdbydesign

Well, When you think you know all about it there is alway more to learn LOL. I was told by our vet that did Sasha's spay that it usually shows up in the first 2 years. Now I know differently. Thanks Chris and Angela


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## jesmagmisty

EPI typically shows up much more often in dogs under two years. Jazzi was 22 months. But, there are many dogs who have developed it at an older age. I think TJ's Karl was four.
If caught in time, most EPI dogs live long lives if there are no other health problems going on.
Robbie


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## lhczth

Just an FYI, according to the newest research EPI is probably NOT an autosomal recessive. This of course explains why it has been so difficult to find the markers. 

If you would like to help in EPI research please contact: Dr. Leigh Ann Clark at Texas A&M for details regarding blood samples at: [email protected] They need samples from both EPI positive dogs and also dogs that do not have EPI. Fresh cTLI test for the EPI positive dogs to recheck levels would be helpful.


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## emjworks05

What are some of the first signs you see in a dog that has EPI?


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## jesmagmisty

I'm proud to say that Jazzi made a donation to the Texas A & M research project. My vet drew the blood and sent it off free of charge.
First signs: rapid weight loss, cow pie poops very frequently, Jazzi tried to eat her own fresh poop. Some dogs have hair loss and or poor skin conditions. Basically they are not getting proper nutrition and are slowly starving to death. Very sad. I saw tremendous improvement right after starting enzymes. She never did try to eat her poop again. YEAH!!!
Robbie


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## selzer

I cannot imagine breeding a dog with this problem. 

If I had a litter of pups and some of them were diagnosed with EPI, then no, I would not breed bitch or dog again. If only one pup developed the problem though, I would have to research further and verify the diagnosis. I mean if a puppy buyer said, she had EPI so we euthanized her, and that was the only pup that had a problem....

The problem is that by the time the puppy has been diagnosed, the bitch may have already had two or three litters. A dog may have sired many litters. 

Hopefully they will come up with a screening for it. It definitely sounds like something worth testing.


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## ILGHAUS

> Quote: I think TJ's Karl was four.


Yes, Karl was three months from turning five when we became concerned with a sudden weight loss. I increased his food for a week then took him to the vet to be checked for worms, complete blood panel, etc. A couple of weeks later he was nothing but a rack of bones, dry flaky skin, and thinning hair. *Less than 2 months before his fifth birthday he was diagnosed with EPI. *


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## doggiedad

what's EPI ?


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## selzer

Pancreatic Insufficiency.


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## JudyK

As a breeder I would not knowingly breed an EPI carrier for the following reasons: When it's time to sell the pups you have no idea if any of the pups are affected since it doesn't show up at such a young age and you are taking the chance that you might be giving the new owners a lifetime of problems. The most important reason is that I have heard of several instances where an EPI dog had uncontrolled aggression manifesting in unprovoked attacks on other dogs living in the same house and according to the owners it was clear in their minds that they were also targeted. In light of that what would happen if the child happened to be a target. Granted, most dogs don't have extreme cases but what if they did and a child was harmed or worse? I think as breeders we have the responsibility to provide the healthiest pup possible and naturally there are always flaws that rear their ugly heads down the road but to breed knowing that there is a serious flaw already in place is not ethical in my book. A reputable breeder considers health the number one priority and to do less is unconscionable.
Judy


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: JudyK..... The most important reason is that I have heard of several instances where an EPI dog had uncontrolled aggression manifesting in unprovoked attacks on other dogs living in the same house and according to the owners it was clear in their minds that they were also targeted.


Is this something that others have noticed?


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## JudyK

I don't know if others have noticed or not. On the other hand many breeders sweep these faults under the rug and there is little or no discussion. It should be talked about. There is a thread on the green board about this very thing. The dog attacked another dog in the same house and was put down. The owner stated that there was no doubt in her mind that she was next. How sad is that? I'll try to find the link.
Judy


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## angelaw

Think the OP and the green board topic are the same for the epi breeding question.


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## JudyK

Here's a link to the thread on the green board: http://www.gsdworld.net/invboard/index.php?showtopic=17388 

Unfortunately, with the heavy editing that goes on there a lot of information has been deleted by the mods. 

On top of having to put her dog down because of uncontrolled aggression the owner started receiving threats because she named the sire and dam. Now that just blows my mind. I don't know where the threats were coming from but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. How sad for the breed that we can't openly identify carriers of such a horrific disease.

Judy


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## Keegan62

My very first shepherd Cindy had that EPI it began when we notriced the bird swooping down and eating her poops

then we noticed weight loss
we took her to the vet and of course that was 35 years ago and the medicine was very expensive and I bet they have come further now. The vet at that time felt we could try for a few months but he felt that she would be better off put to sleep

Here is a 5 year old beautiful long coat gentle lovable HEART DOG
I was devastated but decided to stop eating some myself and get her the drugs she needed we did it for about 5 months and she still lost weight and then I wanted her to go out and went to put the leash up and she jumped up and bit me this was a dog that ran in the snow with the kids hands in her mouth and not even a tooth mark Now these kids were under the age of 10 and 2were under 3
So we took her back to the vet adn he said she is miserable and said the best thing was to put her to sleep I never got over her
but when we had her in germany she had a lot of the slimmy poops and treated with the german way rice meat and apples I guess that was the beginning


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## angelaw

> Originally Posted By: JudyKUnfortunately, with the heavy editing that goes on there a lot of information has been deleted by the mods.
> 
> How sad for the breed that we can't openly identify carriers of such a horrific disease.
> 
> Judy


Can't do it here either. Breeder bashing, no matter how true or how false, isn't allowed. 

Now if you wanted to create your own website, with listing of sire/dams, breeder names etc. that's fine if you want the liability of possibly being sued, but this board seeks to avoid that as apparently the other board does too.


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## chruby

> Originally Posted By: JudyKHere's a link to the thread on the green board: http://www.gsdworld.net/invboard/index.php?showtopic=17388
> 
> Unfortunately, with the heavy editing that goes on there a lot of information has been deleted by the mods.
> 
> On top of having to put her dog down because of uncontrolled aggression the owner started receiving threats because she named the sire and dam. Now that just blows my mind. I don't know where the threats were coming from but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. How sad for the breed that we can't openly identify carriers of such a horrific disease.
> 
> Judy


Yes, and unfortunately the sire and dam are still being bred. The sire is owned by a large kennel in this area and the dam in co-owned with same kennel and still being bred as well.









All about the $$$$$$$


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## angelaw

Can I ask why this is being brought up again from over a month ago? Is it just to complain about the sire and dam and someone's decision to keep breeding? If that's the case, it would be better served on another website, or pedigreedatabase. People post all sorts of stuff over there that isn't well moderated. Or use ripoffreport.com

but to keep bringing up the same point over and over and not discussing the topic just to keep rehashing the same thing, isn't productive and lends me to think it's just to keep stirring the pot.


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## Chris Wild

I've never owned an EPI dog but have known several and have NEVER encountered or heard of this sudden, uncontrolled aggression.

Are there any studies to prove some sort of link, or are we just going by a few anectdotal stories where people are assuming a relationship between the 2 issues? How prevalent is this? I mean of the 1000s of dogs with EPI, how many are weighing in on the issue? Just a few cases where both are occurring? That can really skew perception, if only the people who's dogs are showing aggression are mentioning it, and the (majority?) who aren't showing aggression aren't bothering to talk about it on the internet because there really isn't anything to talk about?

I HAVE encountered a few GSDs (and owned one), as well as dogs from other breeds too, who have developed what is commonly referred to as rage syndrome when they reached maturity. None of those have had EPI. 

Unless there is more than a few anecdotal cases indicating a link, I'm inclined to believe the aggression issues and EPI are unrelated. They just happen to occur sometimes in the same dog, and people are drawing their own conclusions of some sort of cause/effect relationship between the two disorders without any sort of proof to back that up.


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## Harry and Lola

chruby said:


> Would like to hear the opinion of breeders and non breeders on the topic of EPI and breeding. If you own both a male and female that have produced EPI progeny would you breed either dog again? Assuming that the original pair would NOT be bred but also knowing they are both carriers as it takes both a male and female carrier to produce EPI pups.
> 
> Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this? Would you breed the male or female again to a different partner? As puppy buyer's would you purchase a puppy from a known carrier bred to a dog that has not been identified as a known carrier?


Stumbled across this old post and found it very interesting.

If I owned a breeding bitch or dog that produced EPI progeny - would I breed them again - ABSOLUTELY NOT.

I find this question scary, I am not a breeder and have no experience with breeding, but why would you breed a dog/bitch that that has produced progeny with serious medical issues such as EPI? I know there are unethical breeders out there, but surely most would not do this? 

I don't know how it is in the USA - but would be interested to know if someone would like to tell me. Here in Australia registered breeders must breed survey their dogs where all aspects of the dog are critiqued for temperament/movement and from his head right down to the colour of his toe nails as well as needing an ‘A’ Stamp for hip dysplasia and a ‘Z’ Stamp for Elbow dysplasia and Haemophilia Certificate (H-neg). 

It would be great if EPI was included here, if breeders had to blood test their dogs for EPI. However, my understanding of EPI is that it can and does skip generations, so a dog may not present positive with EPI but his grandfather may have. So how you would eliminate breeding bitches/dogs that don't have EPI but do have a relative that does is tricky. 

I wonder if there needs to be more research done on a dogs line for EPI? I also worry about about pedigree lines as they are so intertwined that perhaps all our dogs will present themselves with an EPI relative?

What does everyone think about this.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ancient and interesting thread but a new one can be started with any newer information from the studies they've been doing.


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