# Help with breeder suggestions



## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Hi all

Was wondering if any of you could help with suggestions for a good breeder. Apologies if this has been covered before elsewhere but I'm new to the forum and also new to potentially owning a GSD (although I have had previous dogs including a Doberman). Ideally I'm looking for a West German working line dog - one that is good and gentle with children yet has the correct temperament to also be trained for protection (which I plan to do after the GSD is at least 1 year old). However I don't really know of any good breeders. The only 2 that were recommended to me were Fleischerheim and Kolenda kennels, both of which seem to have a lot of negative comments on here and on the public internet google reviews (moreso Fleischerheim than Kolenda).

I did speak with both breeders and Fleischer at least took my requirements into account for discussion to discuss certain puppies he had that would fit that criteria whilst Kolenda told me that all his puppies would be fine for my criteria (I'm no GSD expert but just logically I can't imagine every single one of them has the same temperament and is equally fearless etc). I'm actually looking for a breeder that will carefully select the right puppy from his/her litter that fits my criteria, so was wondering if you could recommend a breeder who does this. I'm willing to wait on the right puppy so am hopeful of finding a breeder that takes great care and interest in matching the puppy to specific homes and families based on their criteria and suitability. Not too concerned with location, I live in NY and would arrange for the dog to be transported to me via ground.

Thanks in advance!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

hi, are you certain of the type you’re looking for? both of the kennels mentioned are west german _showlines_.....


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Hi - yes, I was told that for a GSD that is suitable for protection training, it needed to be a working line and not showline. That said, I don't really have a point of reference for which breeders to approach and was given those 2 names and have no idea if they were working line or not, but the negative reviews on both here and google have made me a little leery of them if I'm being honest. Admittedly there are a lot of positive reviews too for those 2 kennels, but there are a disturbing amount of negative ones so I thought I'd try to get some more names so that I could speak with the breeders.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think you need to meet some dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

As BH said, you need to go meet dogs. Find a club near you and watch dogs work, talk to the owners about living with their dogs and decide what you want in a dog.

If you need a protection dog, buy a trained dog and get the training necessary to handle the dog. If you want to dabble in protection training, get a family dog capable of doing sports and strap in for the ride.


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Thanks David - that is good advice but unfortunately with the current COVID situation it's not that practical for me to be out and about. I have a fairly clear idea of what I want in a dog, I've had dogs my entire life since childhood till now, I just haven't had a GSD. I'm honestly just trying to source a reputable breeder to approach. For example I had been considering Wendelin in addition to the two I had mentioned beforehand, but I subsequently found another user's thread on this forum which said that while they did produce a lot of solid dogs, they had also had a fair few with high anxiety/nerves etc due to their Czech lineage.
In any case, I'm not here to try to stoke arguments about which breeder is better than another, I'm just simply hoping some of you will point me in the direction of some breeders with largely good reputations where the prices don't seem to be as exorbitantly high compared to other breeders. Happy to take PMs for recommendations too in case people are worried this is going to turn into a controversial post, that is not my intention. I don't need extensive responses on why a particular breeder is bad, only just whether I should avoid them. To a rookie prospective GSD buyer, every website seems to say more or less the same thing, all say their dogs have fantastic bloodlines, fantastic temperament, all have impressive titles etc etc. There's really no real way for the novice to differentiate and it's really not practical to fly to Arizona, Colorado and Illinois to meet with all of them and see their dogs in person, so basically I'm just looking for some help to narrow down the field a little. 
Thank you for your help in advance!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

“Trained for protection” is vague and also hard to do alone, so that may be why you are getting responses about visiting clubs and seeing dogs. Nailing down your idea of the type of protection training you want to do will also be helpful for your puppy application. The type of breeder you are asking for will more than likely have a lengthy application for you to fill out and they would appreciate you having a firm idea of what you will do with your dog.

That said, the type of dog you want is totally possible. I have a family dog that does protection work and I think you are right to trust your instincts with those initial breeders you contacted.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Temujen777 said:


> Thanks David - that is good advice but unfortunately with the current COVID situation it's not that practical for me to be out and about. I have a fairly clear idea of what I want in a dog, I've had dogs my entire life since childhood till now, I just haven't had a GSD. I'm honestly just trying to source a reputable breeder to approach. For example I had been considering Wendelin in addition to the two I had mentioned beforehand, but I subsequently found another user's thread on this forum which said that while they did produce a lot of solid dogs, they had also had a fair few with high anxiety/nerves etc due to their Czech lineage.
> In any case, I'm not here to try to stoke arguments about which breeder is better than another, I'm just simply hoping some of you will point me in the direction of some breeders with largely good reputations where the prices don't seem to be as exorbitantly high compared to other breeders. Happy to take PMs for recommendations too in case people are worried this is going to turn into a controversial post, that is not my intention. I don't need extensive responses on why a particular breeder is bad, only just whether I should avoid them. To a rookie prospective GSD buyer, every website seems to say more or less the same thing, all say their dogs have fantastic bloodlines, fantastic temperament, all have impressive titles etc etc. There's really no real way for the novice to differentiate and it's really not practical to fly to Arizona, Colorado and Illinois to meet with all of them and see their dogs in person, so basically I'm just looking for some help to narrow down the field a little.
> Thank you for your help in advance!


You don't necessarily need to see all their dogs in person. You need to see enough dogs and speak to enough handlers to understand just what it is you are looking for. You don't mention the right things in your initial inquiry to lead me to believe that you understand the different types of dogs available.

Here is my list of requirements.

Strong, healthy dog.
Parents health tested.
Strong nerves.
Confident and forward. Pushy is fine.
Balanced drives. Civil. Hunt drive is a must.
Environmentally and socially stable and confident.
Off switch.
Working dogs close up in the pedigree.
Herding lines in the pedigree.
Breeder I trust who is willing to have a relationship with me.

This is a dog I can do anything with.

This is not a dog for a novice.

If you don't know what these things mean, it's hard to have a conversation about what you really want. That is why we suggest you go meet some dogs and get an education on what things look alike and mean before you choose a particular line, breeder or puppy.


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Hi Cera

Thanks for your reply. I guess I should clarify further on the protection aspect. I did consider buying a fully protection trained adult but since I have young children now I was advised by some experienced dog owners/breeders (non GSD) that while it should be fine, the safer route with respect to the kids was to get a puppy, have it trained for normal obedience and bond with the family first and wait till it was a year + old and more mature to then start professional protection training. It seemed to make logical sense to me at the time and so I spoke with several trainers who concurred. If I were still young and single I probably would just get a fully trained dog but that is not the case - but I do have an agreement with a trainer who has protection trained dogs for several police forces and an ex president so I am fairly confident he knows what he is doing.That being the case it’s incumbent for me to find the right breeder so that when they tell me this puppy or that one has the correct temperament, then I’ll have more of a comfort level that they are being ethical in the matching as opposed to just trying to make a sale.


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

David re: your last post. Thank you. Yes what you listed is basically what I want (minus the pushy and herding line in recent pedigree) - although I don’t mind a dog with lower drive as long as as it still seemed capable of training in basic protection work. I understand all the aspects you listed - I didn’t realize I was required to spell it out to that extent in the original post 😀
Those were aspects I intended to discuss with a breeder hence why I am asking for recommendations 😀


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Temujen777 said:


> David re: your last post. Thank you. Yes what you listed is basically what I want (minus the pushy and herding line in recent pedigree) - although I don’t mind a dog with lower drive as long as as it still seemed capable of training in basic protection work. I understand all the aspects you listed - I didn’t realize I was required to spell it out to that extent in the original post 😀
> Those were aspects I intended to discuss with a breeder hence why I am asking for recommendations 😀


Where are you located?


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

I’m in the New York State area around an hour from Manhattan


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Does anyone have any knowledge of, or experience with vom Berk Haus in Montana? Their puppies seem great, the owners seem knowledgeable - but their prices are 3-4 times what other seemingly reputable breeders are charging. I'm not opposed to paying a premium if I'm genuinely getting a puppy that has the temperament and bloodlines to justify it, but I'm just not familiar enough about bloodlines in the GSD breed to know if this is the case.
Closer to NY a couple people in other threads have mentioned Sturmfalken and Nachwaetcher but there's not really been a lot of information on them either.
Happy to take PMs if people don’t want to post publicly with breeder recommendations.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Temujen777 said:


> I’m in the New York State area around an hour from Manhattan


I have a pup out of Carmspack and Fraserglen that I am very happy with. They are just up in Canada. I picked the pup up in Niagara Falls. There have been a few novice handlers that struggle a bit with these pups. These are working line dogs and require daily exercise and training. That being said, I really like the dogs I know out of these kennels. There is a repeat breeding of the litter that Valor is from that will be ready to go in May.

Feel free to ask any questions you may have.
@Max'sOwner has a brother to my dog.
@Saphire owns the Sire, Carmspack Gus.

Here is my puppy thread.








Carmspack puppy inbound!!!


Tentative name is Valor




www.germanshepherds.com





And my YouTube


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_0DFcIQVPsCQik0NkdUbpQ/


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Temujen777 said:


> Thanks David - that is good advice but unfortunately with the current COVID situation it's not that practical for me to be out and about. I have a fairly clear idea of what I want in a dog, I've had dogs my entire life since childhood till now, I just haven't had a GSD. I'm honestly just trying to source a reputable breeder to approach. For example I had been considering Wendelin in addition to the two I had mentioned beforehand, but I subsequently found another user's thread on this forum which said that while they did produce a lot of solid dogs, they had also had a fair few with high anxiety/nerves etc due to their Czech lineage.
> In any case, I'm not here to try to stoke arguments about which breeder is better than another, I'm just simply hoping some of you will point me in the direction of some breeders with largely good reputations where the prices don't seem to be as exorbitantly high compared to other breeders. Happy to take PMs for recommendations too in case people are worried this is going to turn into a controversial post, that is not my intention. I don't need extensive responses on why a particular breeder is bad, only just whether I should avoid them. To a rookie prospective GSD buyer, every website seems to say more or less the same thing, all say their dogs have fantastic bloodlines, fantastic temperament, all have impressive titles etc etc. There's really no real way for the novice to differentiate and it's really not practical to fly to Arizona, Colorado and Illinois to meet with all of them and see their dogs in person, so basically I'm just looking for some help to narrow down the field a little.
> Thank you for your help in advance!


I sent you a private message ... about my guy. He’s a generation out from Wendelin dogs, goes back to Ibon Jipo Me - just re my experience with my dog as I have zero experience with Wendelin directly or their other dogs but it seems a lot of their current breeding females are Ibon pups. He’s a solid dude, confident and social but he can def be a handful. He is to my taste but may be a lot if there are young kids in the house, and a more experienced handler than I may feel differently.


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Thank you David - I will take a look at their websites


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

finn'smom said:


> I sent you a private message ... about my guy. He’s a generation out from Wendelin dogs, goes back to Ibon Jipo Me - just re my experience with my dog as I have zero experience with Wendelin directly or their other dogs but it seems a lot of their current breeding females are Ibon pups. He’s a solid dude, confident and social but he can def be a handful. He is to my taste but may be a lot if there are young kids in the house, and a more experienced handler than I may feel differently.


It's so important to know what you actually want in a dog


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I believe that given all the info given, the OP would be more sucessful with a showline dog than a sportbred or Czech dog....

Lee


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Temujen777 said:


> Hi Cera
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I guess I should clarify further on the protection aspect. I did consider buying a fully protection trained adult but since I have young children now I was advised by some experienced dog owners/breeders (non GSD) that while it should be fine, the safer route with respect to the kids was to get a puppy, have it trained for normal obedience and bond with the family first and wait till it was a year + old and more mature to then start professional protection training. It seemed to make logical sense to me at the time and so I spoke with several trainers who concurred. If I were still young and single I probably would just get a fully trained dog but that is not the case - but I do have an agreement with a trainer who has protection trained dogs for several police forces and an ex president so I am fairly confident he knows what he is doing.That being the case it’s incumbent for me to find the right breeder so that when they tell me this puppy or that one has the correct temperament, then I’ll have more of a comfort level that they are being ethical in the matching as opposed to just trying to make a sale.


I know this thread is a few days old, I was just reading back through it. The trainer you have an agreement with - is he/she willing to assist you with finding a puppy? I've found most are very helpful and if they are that experienced they should have some good contacts. It would likely cost you a small fee for their time - unless they're willing to throw some breeder names at you based on their experience with previous dogs trained and lines. My trainer had an immediate reaction when she found out where my guy was from - most with years in the business know which puppies they are excited about working with based on breeding.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What do you want to know about Sturmfalken? I know several of their dogs and I know the breeder. There is no reason why one of their breedings wouldn't work for you. I've only met one Nachwaetcher dog.


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## Temujen777 (Dec 15, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> What do you want to know about Sturmfalken? I know several of their dogs and I know the breeder. There is no reason why one of their breedings wouldn't work for you. I've only met one Nachwaetcher dog.


Thanks I actually already did decide on a breeder, but thank you.


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