# New puppy's issues- advise please!



## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Not sure if this is the best forum to post this in, let me know.

We adopted an 11 week old puppy about 24 hours ago. The contract stated we had 3 days to get him to a vet and if he had any problems they would take him back and return full price. Keep in mind this is not a real "professional" breeder. Also, not a backyard breeder.. I would say more of a "hobby" breeder. They do know what they are talking about and really care about the pups but the parents have never been hip or elbow certified. The pups grandparents on both sides have been though. Anyway- he warmed up to us pretty fast, seems happy and content. The issues I am having are this, though. This morning I let him out into our large fenced in backyard, supervised, for about 10 minutes. The second I let him back in he submissive peed when I went to pet him. I didn't think a lot about this. Then I let him out again about an hour later, he was about a little longer this time, supervised from the window. I let him in and AGAIN he pees RIGHT away, this time it seemed more of a regular pee, he squatted etc. Not so much submissive I do not think? But, I went to pet him a minute later and he peed a bit more. Then a couple minutes later I went to pick him up to take him downstairs and he peed even more. Happened again a little later. How concerning is this?
Another issue, he likes to be pet etc-- but he doesn't like coming to us. If we squat down and clap our hands and call him he kind of walks away or around us, not to us like (most?) puppies would. He does follow me around but doesn't come up to me when I call. Is this normal?
Last issue!- I have tried working with him just slightly using treats to get him to sit and he does like the treat but he isn't interested or focused AT ALL. I do know he is a puppy, so this is the LEAST of my concerns. But, is it normal that I cannot get him to pay attention for even a minute with a treat at 11 weeks old? 

Anyway--- We took him to the vet last night and found out that he has bilateral cryptorchid. (both of his balls have not dropped). Because of this the vet said that we would defiantly want to get him fixed by the time he is a year old so that cancer does not develop. Defiantly not breed him. And that he will produce a little less testosterone so perhaps be slightly smaller and less "muscular" that he would have otherwise been. Also fixing him will be a surgery and cost us closer to $300-$400 rather than just over $50 for the normal neuter. 

I emailed the breeder and they are willing to refund us $100 and have us keep the puppy or take him and back refund us our full $500-- which is what we paid for him. 

Thanks to anyone who is willing to read all of this and give me some feedback-- would you keep him with these issues? We have only had him 24 hours, and yes we do love him but also we do want a good family dog. The health issue and the extra money that will cost is the least of our concern, my concern is mostly the submissive peeing and not coming to us at all. Let me know, thanks!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

The not coming to you and the peeing is normal. He's a puppy, he is in a strange place and he doesn't know you.

I personally would take the puppy back and I would do my research and find a reputable breeder that does health tests and temperment tests and chooses the perfect puppy for me. You have a better chance at getting a nice, healthy puppy with a great temperment if you go through a reputable breeder. The money spent will be well worth it in the end.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

You should be purchasing through a reputable breeder that can provide you with a healthy pup that has a stable temperament. Spending a little more would reduce vet bills in the long run... trust me. A well bred dog is often a healthy, sound animal. Worth the wait/expense.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Wild Wolf said:


> You should be purchasing through a reputable breeder that can provide you with a healthy pup that has a stable temperament. Spending a little more would reduce vet bills in the long run... trust me. A well bred dog is often a healthy, sound animal. Worth the wait/expense.


:thumbup:


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I have another puppy I am interested in if we do decide to not keep him. Parents and grandparents have been hip and elbow tested and are certified. Dad is 95lbs and mom is 75lbs, they've had their second set of puppy shots and been wormed. They were born Oct 9th and both parents are on site. These pups are $850. Would this be a better bet as they have been hip and elbow tested? -What questions should I ask them before looking? EDITED: Also they are German West Line, red and tan


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Read the link LaRen provided.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JenniferF said:


> I have another puppy I am interested in if we do decide to not keep him. Parents and grandparents have been hip and elbow tested and are certified. Dad is 95lbs and mom is 75lbs, they've had their second set of puppy shots and been wormed. They were born Oct 9th and both parents are on site. These pups are $850. Would this be a better bet as they have been hip and elbow tested? -What questions should I ask them before looking?


Both parents and grandparents have been both elbow and hip tested?

Do the breeders choose the puppy for you? You should not be the one choosing the puppy! The breeder has been around the puppies for 8 weeks, they should know all of their personalities, drive and energy levels and they should match the perfect puppy to you.

Ask them why they decided to breed GSDs?

What are their goals?

Have they done other health tests?

Do they temperment test?

Do they match their puppies to the puppy buyer?

I personally believe that $850 is pretty low to pay for a well bred GSD from a reputable owner.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I have already looked over a lot of those sites. $850 is the top we would be able to pay. These people with the $850 pups seem responsible


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

JenniferF said:


> the parents have never been hip or elbow certified. The pups grandparents on both sides have been though.


Just because grandparents were certified doesn't necessarily mean the parents are clear. I would want the parents to be certified as well before I went ahead with a litter. Being a hobby breeder is one thing, but not doing a simple hip/elbow certification? Calls the breeder's practices into question. 



JenniferF said:


> Another issue, he likes to be pet etc-- but he doesn't like coming to us. If we squat down and clap our hands and call him he kind of walks away or around us, not to us like (most?) puppies would. He does follow me around but doesn't come up to me when I call. Is this normal?


You've had him for 24 hours. My male that doesn't leave my side and will do anything for me didn't truly bond with me for about a month after I got him. 24 hours is way too short to expect anything close to a "true bond". This is more so true for an aloof breed like a GSD. 

Does he even know his name yet? Recall training takes time, repetition and patience. It is not an overnight thing. Look into obedience classes. It will be crucial in educating both you and the pup. 

Not all dogs like big displays of affection. For example, my girl will belly crawl and shy away if strangers come at her with lots of noise and yelling. My male will stiffen up and turn his head when strangers are overly touchy and aggressive with their introduction. You are still pretty much strangers after only knowing each other for one day. Keep it low key and do not expect everything all at once. 



JenniferF said:


> Last issue!- I have tried working with him just slightly using treats to get him to sit and he does like the treat but he isn't interested or focused AT ALL. I do know he is a puppy, so this is the LEAST of my concerns. But, is it normal that I cannot get him to pay attention for even a minute with a treat at 11 weeks old?


He's 11 weeks old. Not even 3 months and you've had him a day! Keep your expectations in check. First work on focus and attention training. Give him a treat each time he looks at you. Give him a treat when he comes after you call his name. Give him a treat when he does something positive (sitting, downing, going to his crate or bed). Go to obedience classes and that will accelerate his learning. It is too early imo to expect him to attach words to specific commands. Think about a 2 year old child. Would you expect them to keep focus on you and obey complex commands? Start off slow and build up. 



JenniferF said:


> would you keep him with these issues? We have only had him 24 hours, and yes we do love him but also we do want a good family dog. The health issue and the extra money that will cost is the least of our concern, my concern is mostly the submissive peeing and not coming to us at all. Let me know, thanks!


The fact that you are asking this question is concerning... Whether he becomes a good family dog or not is up to you (barring any serious congenital temperament issues). 

The submissive peeing might have an underlying health cause so you should get that checked out by a vet. Enroll in obedience and consult a behaviorist to help remedy the urination issue. There are medications if it is a health issue, and with proper help, behavior problems also do have solutions. 

Do not expect a 11 week old puppy that you've had for a day to come to you when called. Way too early imo...

Read all the educational threads on here that you can...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Are they West German working lines or West German showlines?

A well bred showline will cost you $1500 and up.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

JenniferF said:


> I have another puppy I am interested in if we do decide to not keep him. Parents and grandparents have been hip and elbow tested and are certified. Dad is 95lbs and mom is 75lbs, they've had their second set of puppy shots and been wormed. They were born Oct 9th and both parents are on site. These pups are $850. Would this be a better bet as they have been hip and elbow tested? -What questions should I ask them before looking? EDITED: Also they are German West Line, red and tan



It seems you've already made up your mind, you're just looking for support. Dump the first pup because he isn't perfect and try again.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Thank you! They said that both parents and grandparents have been elbow and hip tested. Is there a number I ask for with this to see how well they got? Not sure how it works. 
They have two males left and three females and yes, they did say that they recommended one of the males for our family situation. But they did say we could look at them all. 


I will ask those other questions  thanks!



LaRen616 said:


> Both parents and grandparents have been both elbow and hip tested?
> 
> Do the breeders choose the puppy for you? You should not be the one choosing the puppy! The breeder has been around the puppies for 8 weeks, they should know all of their personalities, drive and energy levels and they should match the perfect puppy to you.
> 
> ...


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Just because grandparents were certified doesn't necessarily mean the parents are clear. I would want the parents to be certified as well before I went ahead with a litter. Being a hobby breeder is one thing, but not doing a simple hip/elbow certification? Calls the breeder's practices into question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup: All great points....another thought on the peeing. He's 11 weeks...he's been in your home about 24 hrs, you are letting him out alone...are you sure he even understands what you want from him?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Based on your responses, how about not getting a pup right now? Spend a much longer time educating yourself and researching before picking a breeder. You will have this dog for the next 10 years. It's worth putting in a few weeks of research for a lifelong companion.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Lilie said:


> It seems you've already made up your mind, you're just looking for support. Dump the first pup because he isn't perfect and try again.


That concerns me as well.....


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JenniferF said:


> Thank you! They said that both parents and grandparents have been elbow and hip tested. Is there a number I ask for with this to see how well they got? Not sure how it works.
> They have two males left and three females and yes, they did say that they recommended one of the males for our family situation. But they did say we could look at them all.
> 
> 
> I will ask those other questions  thanks!


Ask to see their OFA papers.

Tell the breeder exactly what you want in a puppy. What kind of energy level are you looking for, do you want a calmer puppy or a more drivey puppy, is this puppy going to be strictly a pet or do you want to do agility, herding, flyball, dock diving, etc.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Thanks qbchottu and everyone else, great points.


So I guess the biggest concern is the fact that this pup's parents have not been hip or elbow tested. 

For that reason alone would you send him back? 
ALSO-- is it sketchy that they didn't notice that his balls have not dropped? Our vet (who owns a German Shepherd, and is actually going to breed his) said that it seems a little odd that they didn't notice that. Has anyone had any experiences with a dog with bilateral cryptorchid? Is there any other things to be concerned with that or just the added money in fixing him?


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Okay, thanks, LaRen616



The hardest part is deciding whether to keep the one we already have even with the concerns you guys are giving me. And NO I have not decided to "dumb" him already. But thanks for your helpfulness. I am just asking opinions right now. Haven't made up my mind at all yet. They do want to know by the morning, though.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I highly suggest waiting, saving up more money and buying from a very reputable breeder. 

A well bred working line puppy will cost you between $1200-$1800.

A well bred showline puppy will cost you between $1500-$3000.

Like I said before, going through a reputable breeder increases your chance of getting a healthy, stable dog with a great temperment.

I personally would not pay more than $1500 for a puppy, there are tons of reputable breeders out there that sell puppies for $1200.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I know you are trying to ask people if they would keep him. What I am saying is what happens when the next pup pees in the house? What if he has allergies? What if he is a picky eater? What if he has poor bite inhibition? What if he is pigheaded during training? Will those issues have you asking the same question again?
Please consider doing what LaRen said. Save up, educate yourself more and research good breeders before settling on a pup. It'll save you a lot of heartache down the road.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

The first puppy you've purchased is going to cost you near $1000 anyway with the original price + the increased neuter price, which could have almost gotten you a nicely bred dog. You have to think of the puppy price as MORE than just a puppy - it is a better chance at reaching an overall better quality dog w/ health and temperament.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

JenniferF said:


> Thanks qbchottu and everyone else, great points.
> 
> 
> So I guess the biggest concern is the fact that this pup's parents have not been hip or elbow tested.
> ...


As for being sketchy no one can know their intention....but maybe they noticed and failed to mention it since dogs can naturally take up to 6 months for that process to happen. I think 11 weeks is a bit early to decide they aren't going to and it is going to take surgery to retrieve them, but I could be wrong. As for if I would send the pup back, a lot of things would have to factor into that decision.....so I would suggest rather than muddying the water by looking at and talking to other breeders you spend the next 24 hrs focusing on the dog you already took home.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> Save up, educate yourself more and research good breeders before settling on a pup. It'll save you a lot of heartache down the road.


:thumbup: Wonderful advice.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Obviously we would keep him. All puppy's have issues. But when buying a healthy puppy we shouldn't find out 24 hours later that he has bilateral crytorchid. Yes all dogs can have issues down the road. The only reason we are thinking about any of this is because the breeder said they would take him back because of the health issue.




qbchottu said:


> I know you are trying to ask people if they would keep him. What I am saying is what happens when the next pup pees in the house? What if he has allergies? What if he is a picky eater? What if he has poor bite inhibition? What if he is pigheaded during training? Will those issues have you asking the same question again?
> Please consider doing what LaRen said. Save up, educate yourself more and research good breeders before settling on a pup. It'll save you a lot of heartache down the road.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Well we will do more research on it and decide what we want to do tomorrow


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JenniferF said:


> when buying a healthy puppy


You mean, of course, from a good breeder instead of the BYB kind. 
Because a _good_ breeder would have known he was cryptorchid when she had him vet checked prior to the sale.
If you aren't willing to do the work to find a _good_ breeder, you're just going to run into the same type thing again, not necessarily this issue but anything, and possibly even temperament issues. 
I'd take a nut-less dog over a nut-job any day.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

I would KEEP HIM! A $50 nueter fee? really? Cody was like $300 in Chicago.

If you ask me there is nothing at all wrong with him. 

Go outside with him and praise and treat him when he pee's outside. If you watch from inside potty training will take WAY longer. 

any pics of him?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

chicagojosh said:


> I would KEEP HIM! A $50 nueter fee? really? Cody was like $300 in Chicago.
> 
> If you ask me there is nothing at all wrong with him.
> 
> ...


No Josh, neutering him will cost $300-$400 instead of the normal $50 fee.

"Also fixing him will be a surgery and cost us closer to $300-$400 rather than just over $50 for the normal neuter."


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Hi Lauren,

Yeah, I was shocked you can get a dog nuetered for $50. Cody was $300 ish, and his cajones had dropped. My point really was that $50 is a steal to me anyway, and to give this pup a chance!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I too thought dogs could "drop" still for quite awhile. 

My first shepherd had retained testicles. I neutered him at two. FWIW he was a mix, but he ended up at 29+ inches at the withers and 118-120 lbs. Whoever said they are smaller than normal should've met my dog.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Exactly. 

Right now I am just lost. lol. I do like him, he is gorgeous and seems to be a good pup. And, really that added on $300 isn't my biggest worry. We can afford that. It is the peeing. But, I have gotten some good feedback on that and think it is probably just because he is new and unsure of us. I've never had a dog do it before. I hope, if we do decide to keep him, he grows out of that quickly  




LaRen616 said:


> No Josh, neutering him will cost $300-$400 instead of the normal $50 fee.
> 
> "Also fixing him will be a surgery and cost us closer to $300-$400 rather than just over $50 for the normal neuter."


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

I vote and hope you keep him Jennifer. any 11 week old puppies will be a "pee bandit" lol

pics of the little guy would be awesome


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Almost all puppies will tinkle submissively. How you handle it can make or break the dog.

Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Submissive Urination


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Really, a normal neuter cost you $300? Wow! Around here you can go to the cheapest places and get it done for $25. Our vet charges around the middle for around here, which is $65 for a regular neuter. But I like and trust our vet and will go with him even if I could get it somewhere else cheaper. Some of the more expensive places charge up to $100. Never seen one more than that, though.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I will read this, Thank you guys! I am more hopeful for him. I will talk to hubby when he is off tonight. If we decide to keep the little guy I will post photos 


msvette2u said:


> Almost all puppies will tinkle submissively. How you handle it can make or break the dog.
> 
> Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Submissive Urination


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

JenniferF said:


> Really, a normal neuter cost you $300? Wow! Around here you can go to the cheapest places and get it done for $25. Our vet charges around the middle for around here, which is $65 for a regular neuter. But like trust our vet and will go with him even if I could get it somewhere else cheaper. Some of the more expensive places charge up to $100. Never seen one more than that, though.


Yep, $300 for a normal neuter in Wicker Park Chicago  Are you in a more rural area? So yeah, if you look at it this way: your more complicated nueter is equal to the price of a normal one if you lived in Chicago.

There is one place in Chicago that will do them for free, by walk in only and the line is wrapped around the city lol. it's meant for population control for the really low income parts of Chicago.

but yeah, your pup sounds 100% normal to me


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Okay! I decided to play with him on our deck so I could see exactly when he is peeing. Grass and carpet is harder to tell lol. after reading some of those sites-- I think it is actually excited urination?? He was jumping all around me trying to play and everytime I would pet him and praise him he would urinate. Everytime. But he wasn't scared he was fully excited and jumping around me while doing it. Going to read more on excitement urination. Have you guys had this happen? How long did it take to calm down, lol. Is it just because we are new and oh so very exciting to him?


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Jennifer you just got him 24 hour ago (well at the time of your 1st post anyway). His world is turned upside down. no parents, no littermates, these strange people all up in his face (j/k). I'm sure lots of things about him will chance over the next week..


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Sheldon's testicles didn't drop until he was about 4 months old...sometimes it takes a little time, just wait and see what happens. I don't think you can call it a retained testicle until they're older...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Take the pup back to the breeder, get your refund, and take some time doing some research on GOOD breeders and saving your money for a well-bred pup. I do not believe in supporting backyard breeders--which is definitely what these people are, not having had the parents hips and elbows x-rayed before breeding. 

This is not "dumping" the pup. This is admitting you made a mistake, and rectifying it. I am glad the breeder is giving you the option of bringing him back, at least.

Other than the bilateral cryptorchid, however, he sounds like a normal pup, albeit probably a shy and underconfident one in that he doesn't want to come to you. Granted, you've only had him a day so you are still strangers to him, but a pup with a good, solid, confident temperament should be outgoing, curious, friendly, and playful with everyone at this age. He should not be fearful, cautious, or shy.

The submissive/excited urination is normal for a pup that age.

I do think it's rather odd that the breeders didn't say anything about the fact that his testicles hadn't descended. A good breeder will see things like this and keep tabs on it. Either they didn't bother to look, or they didn't bother to tell you--either way, not good.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you have good advice here. A poorly bred dog may cost you much more over a lifetime than a well bred puppy. Take your time and save up then don't get the puppy until you also have the initial vet money saved up (several hundred dollars in shots, and exams, and heartworm preventive, then whatever supplies you need on top of that)

I would not be too happy if he is not outgoing and confident....I am thinking back on my little guy when he was 11 weeks and he was into everything, loving everybody, very into treats, no submissive urination ever (but that is going to vary).....His testicles had dropped by the time I got him (also at 11 weeks) but our testicle warranty was 50% refund.

I would check into what your vet is breeding as well....especially if you can meet the parents. How were this puppies parents?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Only read the first two pages , so correct me if I am misinformed.
1) the vet called the cryptorchid thing far too early --- especially a dog that is submissive , he probably pulled them . Ask the breeder if they checked him out prior to handing him over. When I do my puppy shots , the vet comes to the house . He spends about 20 minutes per pup, heart, pulse, respiration , nerve and balance , oral cavity, and testicles . A notation is made , both down, left , right . If there is any question , the pup is noted , put away and then rechecked. On the health certificate the vet will write his findings.

A good solid confident pup should march into your home as if he owns it , has always been there . Should make contact with you. A socialized dog , a dog with a good ability to connect and work with you wants to make contact, wants to belong , wants to find his place and how to get approval. 

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com 
2) I don't think this dog is very confident , socially reluctant , which may lead to problems down the road , feeling pressure or threat , avoiding .


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

carmspack said:


> *A good solid confident pup should march into your home as if he owns it , has always been there . Should make contact with you. A socialized dog , a dog with a good ability to connect and work with you wants to make contact, wants to belong , wants to find his place and how to get approval. *
> 
> 2) I don't think this dog is very confident , socially reluctant , which may lead to problems down the road , feeling pressure or threat , avoiding .


This is exactly how my Malice was/is. 

As for #2 I would be very worried about that.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

My little monster VERY interested in her environment the first day. She explored everything, latched onto my blankets for a game of tug, ate like a beast, and climbed all over me. I would expect the same out of any puppy I purchase, but I like a confident, reliable dog.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

He defiantly explores and is into EVERYTHING, lol. He loves playing tug, and catch already. He does climb all over me, etc. The thing he doesn't do is come to me when I call him. He kinda goes around me, as if unsure when I ask him to come see me. If I let him come to me himself, or once he does come to me, he is all over me. Like most have posted, it is probably because he is in a new place and with new people. It has only been a day. 



Shaina said:


> My little monster VERY interested in her environment the first day. She explored everything, latched onto my blankets for a game of tug, ate like a beast, and climbed all over me. I would expect the same out of any puppy I purchase, but I like a confident, reliable dog.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

So he is not shy about it or acting nervous, he just doesn't know what you're telling him? Well, that makes perfect sense - baby is only 11 weeks old. Start imprinting the recall now, though. It's better to do it while they're little ones  Good luck.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Yeah, I think that has a lot to do with it  and thanks!




Shaina said:


> So he is not shy about it or acting nervous, he just doesn't know what you're telling him? Well, that makes perfect sense - baby is only 11 weeks old. Start imprinting the recall now, though. It's better to do it while they're little ones  Good luck.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

guys!!!! i'm not sure why a lot of you are advising Jennifer to return this puppy.

-it pee's in the house @ 11 weeks - what 11 week old doesn't?

-yes, the parent's hips were not certified, but the grand parents were, and for a whopping $30 a month it can be insured and there goes the worries of expensive operations coming out of pocket

-about lack of puppy confidence...it's 11 weeks old!!!! I think there is plenty of time to build up this pups confidence.

-about supporting a BYB. the pups are already born. this litter is on earth. why not lets these pups get a good owner? so all Backyard pups deserve poor owners? 

I will admit Cody came from a responsible and caring breeder...who was probably to some people a BYB. He's been AMAZING!!!!

You can have a awesome dog without it being form SCH3 parents, and i feel like most are discouraging Jennifer from keeping this pup who seems to have nothing really wrong with it. I hate seeing the "death sentence" being put on this poor puppy.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

You have had him 1 day. He is a baby and you expect him to come when called in a foreign (to him) language. Think about that.
As for his potty training you are going about it all wrong. The only way he will learn not to pee inside is for you to catch him at it, say NO and get him outside IMMEDIATELY so he can finish and get a lot of praise and rewards. At his age he should learn this fairly quickly and it should be the only thing you are training him for while you are still bonding. For now focus on bonding and house-training and keep it simple.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I know 

He is doing GREAT with potty training. It is the excited peeing. I read up on it and need to 100% ignore it. I think I will keep calm with him inside so he doesn't pee out of excitement and take him outside often and be more excited with him so when/if he pees out of excitement he will be outside and sooner or later he will stop once his bladder gets more control 



PaddyD said:


> You have had him 1 day. He is a baby and you expect him to come when called in a foreign (to him) language. Think about that.
> As for his potty training you are going about it all wrong. The only way he will learn not to pee inside is for you to catch him at it, say NO and get him outside IMMEDIATELY so he can finish and get a lot of praise and rewards. At his age he should learn this fairly quickly and it should be the only thing you are training him for while you are still bonding. For now focus on bonding and house-training and keep it simple.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

My girl is 9 months old and still urinates when she is excited. About 95% of the time when you greet her now she doesn't, but the first five months she would run in circles peeing everywhere any time she got pet by someone. It does get better, but it can take a while. Don't scold the pup for doing this - they have NO idea that they're doing it. I always take my girl outside FIRST, then let her meet people. Or, have them go outside with her, that way she doesn't pee all over my house.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I agree, Josh  and I think we will keep him. 
He is only a baby. I also talked to my vet who owns German Shepherds and has had a lot of experience with them. 

He said of course if we save up and go to a great breeder and spend the money on him it does *help* know that he is less likely to have health issues. But he says it isn't a HUGE increase in dogs like our current puppy. I believe he said he sees about 10% of well known breeder's GSDs have serious issues and about 20% of the more "BYB" dogs. It is a risk either way. And it is great that his grandparents on both sides have the hip certification. 
I also will be getting insurance to be safe.




chicagojosh said:


> guys!!!! i'm not sure why a lot of you are advising Jennifer to return this puppy.
> 
> -it pee's in the house @ 11 weeks - what 11 week old doesn't?
> 
> ...


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that made my day Jennifer! I'd feel so bad for your pup if you returned him. Insurance is good for genetic stuff or the "my dog ate an entire pillow and need stomach pumped" stuff.

this is truely awesome though!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm a sap, so yes I would keep him to


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

chicagojosh said:


> guys!!!! i'm not sure why a lot of you are advising Jennifer to return this puppy.
> 
> -it pee's in the house @ 11 weeks - what 11 week old doesn't?
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

I agree with all that. I would be willing to bet if you take him out and stay out on potty breaks the problem resolves itself very quickly. As far as the testicles....normal dogs can take up to 9 months before a vet can say for sure they aren't coming. Good luck....and I hope you give this puppy a chance. Our dog didn't come from solid breeding either (don't tell him though), but from someone who truly loved both his parents so I would never refer to her as a BYB...he has given us 9 great years with no health issues until lately.....so give him a chance, he could surprise you!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

why did you not ask the breeder all those questions in post #1 .
you had 3 days to get him to the vet , which you could not do -- so are you saying you do not trust the breeder ? don't believe them ?

good luck


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

What?

We did get him to the vet, and I have talked to the breeder. You are confusing me? What is your question?


carmspack said:


> why did you not ask the breeder all those questions in post #1 .
> you had 3 days to get him to the vet , which you could not do -- so are you saying you do not trust the breeder ? don't believe them ?
> 
> good luck


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Jennifer, we ALL can agree we love puppy pics hehe. how about some tomorrow?


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Agreed! I will try to take some tomorrow 




chicagojosh said:


> Jennifer, we ALL can agree we love puppy pics hehe. how about some tomorrow?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you can't be more confused than me !

I know you did . So what advice were you seeking of forum members ? (who by the way probably individually and collectively have more GSD experience than your vet) 
here is your appeal "Thanks to anyone who is willing to read all of this and give me some feedback-- would you keep him with these issues? We have only had him 24 hours, and yes we do love him but also we do want a good family dog. The health issue and the extra money that will cost is the least of our concern, my concern is mostly the submissive peeing and not coming to us at all. Let me know, thanks! "


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

carmspack,

Jennifer was also inquiring about behavioral stuff, not just medical ya know


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I am having a hard time understanding what you are applying, lol. 
I have gotten some great advice from everyone here. Of course everyone has their own opinion and it seems split on opinions when it comes to keeping him or giving him back. It is looking like we will keep him but I will research more and talk to hubby tonight and decide for sure.





carmspack said:


> you can't be more confused than me !
> 
> I know you did . So what advice were you seeking of forum members ? (who by the way probably individually and collectively have more GSD experience than your vet)
> here is your appeal "Thanks to anyone who is willing to read all of this and give me some feedback-- would you keep him with these issues? We have only had him 24 hours, and yes we do love him but also we do want a good family dog. The health issue and the extra money that will cost is the least of our concern, my concern is mostly the submissive peeing and not coming to us at all. Let me know, thanks! "


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

now, Jennfier, you've made my day today...please don't ruin it tomorrow and post you returned your new fur baby  

you know my vote is to keep him! see ya


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know and many people, myself, and Jocoyn and someone else did comment on the behavioural .
It was not condemning the dog - just a comment that what you see is basic to the animal , and may give clues as to what to expect in the future .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Thank you for clarifying that  it was mostly behavior stuff I had questions about. I have gotten great advice 




chicagojosh said:


> carmspack,
> 
> Jennifer was also inquiring about behavioral stuff, not just medical ya know


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You _may_ have a shy dog on your hands. I have a shy dog and he acted much like you describe when he was a puppy. My other dog is confident and outgoing and even at 4 or 5 weeks old when he was still with his litter, he acted like he owned the world.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I'll bet the puppy is just unsure of what to do when the op gets down and calls him, most BYB puppies are not socialized to even their breeders as they are usually put on earth to make money, not to nurture and provide them with a positive impression of love and affection from people, his basic puppy innocence wants to come and snuggle, but he's unsure and maybe even a little scared, hence the submissive urinating, the puppy needs to be loved and socialized and he will learn like most puppies that his people are the best things on earth, it's not his fault he was bred by these people. I would keep him and do right by him, and next time around you will know how to choose a puppy, but for now, you got the puppy you need and you can grow together.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

To the OP--please do not let others try to guilt-trip you into a decision. 

The fact is, a lot of puppies will pee when excited, and if he is not imprinted to humans, he may not understand what you want when you call him. Regarding the testicles, if you don't mind paying the extra $300 for the neuter surgery, that might not be an issue.

The larger issue here is supporting a backyard breeder that does not do standard health testing or x-rays on the parents, or socialize their puppies (or even look at them, since they did not notice undescended testicles). We have not seen the pup's pedigree so we can't comment on that, but backyard breeders usually have no idea what kind of bloodlines they are putting together. 

With GSDs you have to be careful what you mix together. Some bloodlines go well together and some don't. When they don't mix well, you can have a lot of problems, behavioral and medical. You just have absolutely no idea what you are getting. Because of this, a lot of BYB GSDs end up in shelters because the owners can't handle them, all the while the BYB continues to pump out more, because they don't care. So there is a larger ethical issue regarding BYBs and why supporting them is a bad idea. It's about the same as buying a puppy from a pet store in terms of supporting the wrong people.

Buying from a reputable breeder who knows what they are doing will greatly increase your chances of getting a healthy dog with a proper GSD temperament.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JenniferF said:


> He defiantly explores and is into EVERYTHING, lol. He loves playing tug, and catch already. He does climb all over me, etc. *The thing he doesn't do is come to me when I call him*. He kinda goes around me, as if unsure when I ask him to come see me. If I let him come to me himself, or once he does come to me, he is all over me. Like most have posted, it is probably because he is in a new place and with new people. It has only been a day.


I think you said earlier you were clapping your hands to get him to come to you? (Sorry if I'm mistaken.) I wouldn't do that. That could be kinda scary. Instead get down low and raise that happy voice high and praise with something yummy when he does come. Coming to you = good things. I've been known to get down into a puppy play stance.  Not a pretty sight with my butt up in the air like that, but the dogs sure seem to "get it." hehe Or just sit there. Don't do anything, but sit there with treats. When he does venture up, give him one. 



PaddyD said:


> You have had him 1 day. He is a baby and you expect him to come when called in a foreign (to him) language. Think about that.
> *As for his potty training you are going about it all wrong*. The only way he will learn not to pee inside is for you to catch him at it, say NO and get him outside IMMEDIATELY so he can finish and get a lot of praise and rewards. At his age he should learn this fairly quickly and it should be the only thing you are training him for while you are still bonding. For now focus on bonding and house-training and keep it simple.


Agree, you mentioned being inside when he was outside and you saw him potty? You missed a critical moment to be out there praising him for going. He needs to be praised *while* he is going to make the connection. Inside, he must be caught in the act, scooped up, taken outside and praised when he does it outside. You can't do all this while you're inside. 

As for excitement peeing, it just is what it is. You just have to manage it until his bladder is more controllable. My oldest dog was a submissive pee'er. I learned about it, learned management of it, it slowed down.. and with age, stopped. 


Sounds like you have a little more time to make your decision? I guess I look at it like this. You have to make this decision and it has to be 0% or 100%. 0% means you return the pup. Now. Asap. 100% means you deal with whatever issues a byb dog may bring. Could be many, might only be a few, who knows. 

I don't care what anyone says, there are issues with every dog. No dog is born perfect and is perfect throughout his training and life. Some dogs just have more issues to work through. Statistically, I'm sure byb dogs present far more issues, healthwise and behaviorally speaking, but there's still no absolute guarantee. You also can't downplay the aspect of training. You could take a genetically "perfect" dog and never give it a minute of training and compare it to a genetically weak dog who is highly trained... and what would you get? Hard to say!!!!!!! 

Bottom line, are you willing to deal with the possible future expenses, the training work, etc? If your answer is no, or I don't know, please take the pup back and get a more genetically assured, sound pup. If you're sure you can be in it for the long haul, for when he becomes a snotty adolescent, for when he may display more evidence of maybe less than ideal nerves and such, then please keep this boy.

I don't mean to come off rude. The questions above were the very questions I asked MYSELF before I took on my #3 dog. We're doing ok, but it isn't all sunshine and roses. Evidence of his weaker nerves come up here and there. All I can do is try to train, train, work, train, work... it's expensive and time consuming, but I took this on (went 100%! once my mind was made up!) and I will never re-home him. That's the thing I don't want to see with your guy -- when his nerve issues might pop up, that you give up and re-home.

Wishing you the best!!!!


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Don't worry. I won't let anyone guilt trip me. Lol.

We decided to keep the pup. As stated, he does need a home. If he doesn't go to us, who knows where he will go if we do not take him. He will be well socialized and have a good home with us. 

We talked to the breeders again, expressed how I felt about it. That we will have to spend $300 to $400 as opposed to the normal $65 neuter and they are refunding us $200 to help with that.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Thank you chelle,


We are in it 100%  
I didn't that about that with the clapping. You are probably right! He doesn't know me well after only a day and it probably scares him seeing some person clapping at him lol. The calmer approch works much better so far!

Thanks for the ideas with potty training. 90% of the time I am with him and do praise him. Occasionally I miss it as I do come in for a couple minutes and watch by the window. I will try to stay out 100% of the time to praise 

How long should it take to potty train an 11 week old pup? Couple weeks? He seems to hold it in for about 2.5 hours at night right now. So far no accidents in kennel at night but I do take him out every 2 to 2.5 hrs


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

Taken your guy's advice and started treating him every time he comes to me or hubby. It worked! He comes most everytime I call him over, if he isn't too distracted. Also he is learning sit! The treating help show him good things happen when coming to us  good idea!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JenniferF said:


> Thank you chelle,
> 
> We are in it 100%
> I didn't that about that with the clapping. You are probably right! He doesn't know me well after only a day and it probably scares him seeing some person clapping at him lol. The calmer approch works much better so far!


Oh, good, 100%, yay! 

I only use clapping when I want attention. As in, hey look at me NOW. 

11 weeks old is when my guy came home, too. I'd spent time with him before I officially brought him home, though, so I wasn't a stranger -- but my house was "strange" to him and being away from littermates and mama was strange to him. I'd have a few treats in my hand and lay on the floor. Every time he'd come up, he got a treat. I let him sniff me, walk around me and never move quickly... just to try to get him to know I was all love & good, positive things. I'd sit and do the same thing. When he started "abusing" the privilege, hehe -- treating me like a dispenser - I upped it to sitting on the chair or couch. It was part of the foundation for recall I wanted to lay out -- coming to mom *always* means good things. Once he was older, he didn't always get the treats, but he always got praise, love, belly rub, a tug game, etc. BUT I like to change it up, so even now, every now and again, he gets a super high value treat just for the recall. So he never knows what he's going to get, but it will always be positive. Start slow on this work, keep going with it, change it up once he's showing consistency. If he's being "shy" about recall, back down and get 100% on a lower level. Any time I say "C'mere Bailey" and he doesn't, I consider it a major step backwards. I *only* say "C'mere" when I am 99.9% sure he IS going to come. I cannot afford to let this dog think he can ignore my "C'mere." If I'm NOT sure, I am more like, "Hey Bails!" and then once he's running towards me, I say "C'mere, Bailey!" because he's already coming. Does that make sense? :laugh:



JenniferF said:


> Thanks for the ideas with potty training. 90% of the time I am with him and do praise him. Occasionally I miss it as I do come in for a couple minutes and watch by the window. I will try to stay out 100% of the time to praise
> 
> How long should it take to potty train an 11 week old pup? Couple weeks? He seems to hold it in for about 2.5 hours at night right now. So far no accidents in kennel at night but I do take him out every 2 to 2.5 hrs


Well, every missed opportunity to praise AS he's going outside will set you back. I'm not sure exactly when I claimed Bailey to be housebroken. It took us several weeks I think. I firmly believe that every housebreaking mistake beyond the first pee/poo in the house is the owner's fault. I've tethered all my dogs as I worked on housebreaking. As in, they were tethered to ME, or to the wall or wherever I could hook my clip. Within my sight/reach at ALL times and if they squatted, they were scooped up rather dramatically (but not scary, not mean!) and taken outside, then praised when they went. IMHO, it is the only proper way to housebreak.  Then I used the bell training to help him communicate to me when he had to go. Eventually the bells went by the wayside when he learned to just come tell me.

At eleven weeks, he should be able to go longer than 2 hours. What time do you pull up his water? If memory serves, I think I was pulling water up around 7PM ? Last potty break just before bedtime about 10PM. He'd make it until about 330-4AM. I think, anyway. :laugh: Those 4AM potty breaks were a little blurry. 

Sorry to ramble.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

We always played a game where I would have the puppy in front of me and call his name...as soon as he looked at me I would give him a treat. 2-3 times a day for about 5-10 minutes. Did miracles for his focus on me. Potty training wish I could help.....both my boys could make it from about 11 pm- 7 am by 12 weeks. Don't hate me....they had / have plenty of other not so shining moments:wub:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Leaning forward pushes a dog away. Leaning back pulls them into you. So in obedience class they would have us get down on the floor, and lean backwards and call the dog to us. It was an uncomfortable position and I was always glad when they would get there quickly. 

Oh, also doing gentle NILIF (meaning don't make it a huge deal and frustrate yourself) and getting Calming Signals by Turid Rugas (sp) will help you work with him.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

glad you're keeping him!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lots of good advice here! It seems pretty common for people to have completely unrealistic expectations of puppies, you're not alone there. As everyone said, he's a baby, just 11 weeks old, and he's been taken away from him mom and littermates and everything that's familiar and now he's in a new home with new people. That's scary for a baby! And he doesn't know ANY commands yet, or even what's expected of him.

It can take a couple of weeks to a couple of months to totally housebreak him. Making sure you take him out often to prevent as many accidents in the house as you can, and to reinforce pottying outside as much as possible, will speed up the process. That's why at this point you should always go outside _with_ him. I always reward with happy praise and a treat when I'm housebreaking - every single time. The excitement and/or submissive peeing should go away eventually. Right now he has very little bladder and bowel control, like a baby that needs to wear diapers, so keep that in mind.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

He is doing very very well  I will get photos up soon (probably after Christmas, need to fix camera). 
The treating has been working miracles! He comes to me every-time when I get down on his level and call him now. Husband and I also worked on "Sit" for a few 10 minute intervals and he knows it already  Starting down now.
He is warming up more and more everyday.

With the excitement peeing I have learning it is just the first 3ish times I greet him after not seeing me for a bit. So I know do that over the hard floor or outside so it it doesn't get on the carpet


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

this is great Jennifer! they learn quick don't they. I'm very excited to see some pics after xmas. enjoy the holiday!


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Take the pup back right away. You are not ready for a puppy and it isn't fare to the dog. Get something mechanical with an off switch.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Marnie said:


> Take the pup back right away. You are not ready for a puppy and it isn't fare to the dog. Get something mechanical with an off switch.


Rude and uncalled for.


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## JenniferF (Dec 22, 2011)

I do believe I promised a photo! Here is one  I will get more soon!
He is a great pup so far  almost 14 weeks old now. He weighed 27lbs at vet last visit at 13 weeks


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hey jennniferf, welcome to the board! your puppy is very cute and i'm glad you decided to keep him.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JenniferF said:


> I do believe I promised a photo! Here is one  I will get more soon!
> He is a great pup so far  almost 14 weeks old now. He weighed 27lbs at vet last visit at 13 weeks


Ah Jennifer, glad you're back and thanks for the pic! Strap yourself in for the fun yet to come!  I'm personally glad you kept him. Looking forward to your updates.


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