# Not your typical Black Sable?



## BlackSable44

I have a 6 month old Working Line GSD that I purchased from a breeder. His brothers and sisters were the standard sable. He was the only one that was born all black but as he has grown up he has brown/white/red brindle like markings on his legs as well as a brownish cap around his ears and neck.

I look up Black Sable or Dark Sable and none of the dogs coloring look similar to what my puppy has. What do you think? Just a super black sable?? haha or have you seen some dogs like him? I'll post photos!

Thanks!


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## msvette2u

It is hard to see in the photos. But looks possibly brindle "points", like a black/tan only black/brindle points?


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## Geeheim

My first thought was bleed through since he started off solid black at birth.


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## GatorDog

I was thinking a really weird form of black with bleed through.


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## gagsd

I would have to say very,very, dark sable. But his body type doesn't look like the typical type associated with that color (in my mind).
What is his pedigree?
Pictures of parents?


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## gagsd

Or yes, bleedthrough. I think "jaggirl" had a black with bleedthrough. If she is still on this board.


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## onyx'girl

I'm curious about the pedigree as well.


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## BlackSable44

Thanks for all the feedback. I don't have a pedigree for him and did not get to see his parents just the litter. I know many of you will say thats a big "no no" but I sat and watched the puppies for about an hour before making any kind of decision. I've had Eros now for a few months and he's an incredible dog. Healthy and very sweet.

I think you're spot on about "bleed through" I dug up jaggirl's post and saw her photos that she attached to one of her threads. Very similar! But Eros has a lot more of it.

Thanks again for the comments!


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## Wolfgeist

BlackSable44 said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. I don't have a pedigree for him and did not get to see his parents just the litter. I know many of you will say thats a big "no no" but I sat and watched the puppies for about an hour before making any kind of decision. I've had Eros now for a few months and he's an incredible dog. Healthy and very sweet.
> 
> I think you're spot on about "bleed through" I dug up jaggirl's post and saw her photos that she attached to one of her threads. Very similar! But Eros has a lot more of it.
> 
> Thanks again for the comments!


My first concern with not seeing the pedigree or parents is that your dog is not purebred. He reminds me of a dutch shepherd mix.


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## Vandal

That's pretty common with some black dogs. I have a line where they start out black and later on, you can see some brown or tan, or whatever you want to call it, on the lower legs and sometimes a little bit between the toes. I have other black dogs who have remained black their entire lives.


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## robk

Part his fur and if you see bright tan under his black outer layer, I would say he is a black sable. If not, then he is not sable. I am also curious about his breeding.


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## Freestep

If he was born solid black, he isn't a sable. He's either a black or a bicolor--both are born all black, except the bicolor has tan around the vent (under the tail). Interesting markings on the legs, looks like brindle? Are you sure he's purebred?


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## vomlittlehaus

Not many true blacks. My black bitch has brown between her toes. The black is worn like a blanket over the dog and 'covers' the brown. So some areas are not completely covered. Since you didnt not see the parents and have no idea the breeding, you can not be sure he is all German Shepherd Dog. So with that, you may not get the typical coloring we see in GSD's.


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## BlackSable44

Everyone seems to be calling it several different things. Since I saw all of his brothers and sisters as all sables I am probably going to stick to calling him a black sable. It just makes sense to me.

*sigh* and yes, he is purebred. The breeder I bought him from had 4 adult shepherds and the other german shepherds they had were a male and female (pregnant) Silver and black. So the other parents I saw. This breeder had quite a bit of property and it was a family business. The other two adults (my puppies parents) were with other family members at the time. So I was unable to see them that day.


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## Geeheim

What color were his parents?


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## GatorDog

BlackSable44 said:


> Everyone seems to be calling it several different things. Since I saw all of his brothers and sisters as all sables I am probably going to stick to calling him a black sable. It just makes sense to me.
> 
> *sigh* and yes, he is purebred. The breeder I bought him from had 4 adult shepherds and the other german shepherds they had were a male and female (pregnant) Silver and black. So the other parents I saw. This breeder had quite a bit of property and it was a family business. The other two adults (my puppies parents) were with other family members at the time. So I was unable to see them that day.


Well if he was born black then he is a black with bleed through. Dogs can't turn into sables. They have to be born that way.


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## onyx'girl

> did not get to see his parents just the litter.


If you didn't see the parents, how can you be certain your dog is all GSD? If they are breeding with no pedigree info, there maybe some Dutch/Mali's in the history. Dutchies usually will get ligher color as they mature.

I agree, sable color would have shown as a pup...they usually darken as they age, not lighten. Regardless, he is unique looking and from the sounds of it a great dog! I hope you show pics as he matures, his structure will tell soon enough if he isn't all GSD.


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## wildo

Just curious- will a black sable puppy still go through the super tan puppy phase?


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## Freestep

BlackSable44 said:


> Everyone seems to be calling it several different things. Since I saw all of his brothers and sisters as all sables I am probably going to stick to calling him a black sable. It just makes sense to me.


I suppose you can call him a flying spaghetti monster if you want to, but it won't make him one. Sables are not born solid black, they are born sort of greyish-tan with a black stripe down the back. Even "black sables" are born this way, though the base color is darker. Just because his siblings were sable doesn't make him a sable.

And pups don't "become" sable as they age. They are either born that way or they aren't.

He looks to me to be a bicolor. He's a handsome boy.

With that brindle coloring coming up on his legs, the fact that you didn't see the parents, you have no registration papers, these people are breeding as a "family business", and one of their dogs is "black & silver".... my BYB sense is tingling. If I were you, I'd go back to the people you got him from, ask to see the parents of the litter, look at their pedigrees, and take photos.


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## mharrisonjr26

Personally I would get a dna test done to confirm he is purebreed, being he has no papers. I thinking this one has some dutchie in him. Since the dogs look so similar it can be hard to distinguish. My reasoning is the brindle markings. He is def not a black sable.


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## wildo

Freestep said:


> Sables are not born solid black, they are born sort of greyish-tan with a black stripe down the back. Even "black sables" are born this way, though the base color is darker.


Thanks for this answer, Freestep!


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## DianaM

There is discussion about brown and banding on legs being indicative of certain lines. You way well have a purebred. Please post the pedigree or at least the registered names of the parents. 

Paging Cliff and Carmen and Anne!

Never mind. Read up and saw no pedigree was available. Enjoy your pup!


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## DianaM

The fine bone and thin tail may indicate some dutchie. Try to see the parents and get pics.


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## BlackSable44

Ok, I took a closer look at his puppy photo which I will attach here and it looks like he was born with some brown on his legs.

I am certain he's purebred.. however, I will be doing a DNA testing on him in the next week or so. Takes a few weeks to get back but I will definitely update this post when I get the results and let you all know. 

My guess for his fine boned structure right now is that he is growing very fast at 6 months and he's just super lanky! 

Anywho! Will update with DNA results.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Think one of the things being stated is that SABLES can be known as sables at birth. From the very start they are tannish/cinnamon/red (do they always have the stripe down their back?). While pretty much all the rest of the colors (not the white  ) are black at birth and then their other colors show up.

This is a litter of young sables and black, the sables stand right out...










Here's a sable pup beside a black pup


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## Samba

Watch out on that DNA testing. The little Jack Russel/Chi mix in our group can back as a poodle/cattledog mix! The owners got their money back from the DNA company. Not so much accuracy with that type of test. If you have DNA from the parents then parentage could be determined by another type of DNA test.

Your dog does not look sable to me at all. Are you able to get Agouti hairs from him? The agouti striped hairs are on a sable.


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## Xeph

Dog doesn't look sable to me, either. Looks brindle.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Xeph said:


> Dog doesn't look sable to me, either. Looks brindle.


Me too, and I love that brindle look.

Hopefully some breeder type that's had tons of black/sable pups will chime in.


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## carmspack

black sable pups are born to look black . Within the first week or two you can start to see a few hairs here and there that are of colour -- 
this is my Griffin -- when he was born he looked black ,
this is his lightest stage (about 5 months) Carmspack Griffin Bax - German Shepherd Dog , when he left at just over a year of age , he looked like the iconic black sable (that he was) with just some brown around his eyes.

I have a little currently . One of the males I thought was a black as there is black recessive . Within the first week I could see he is a black sable -- this is his mothers line 
Como vom Parchimer Land - German Shepherd Dog

I would love to find a gsd with brindling


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## Kyad02

*My Baron is 10 months old and solid black*



dawnandjr said:


> Not many true blacks. My black bitch has brown between her toes. The black is worn like a blanket over the dog and 'covers' the brown. So some areas are not completely covered. Since you didnt not see the parents and have no idea the breeding, you can not be sure he is all German Shepherd Dog. So with that, you may not get the typical coloring we see in GSD's.


 Guess I got lucky with Baron, black everywhere, not a trace of anything else stock coat


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## GSDAlphaMom

Genetics of coat colors:

Dog Coat Color Genetics


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## Gilly1331

I was gonna say a minimal bi-color just based on the markings.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Almost looks like this...









It is a brindle effect, I do not know if the bleed through could have such a pattern within it...I have seen black GSDs and other breeds with bleed through and it always seems like a single color, where that looks stripey. Maybe that is the way it is coming through? I don't know! He's a handsome pup!


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## Dainerra

Singe is a dark sable, but not black. I've never seen a GSD that looks like your guy though this looks kind of close?
Photos of East German (DDR) and Czech German shepherd dogs | Facebook

I've heard that "black sable" means that the dog actually has a black undercoat? 

This is Singe, my Czech line boy.








I can't remember right now how old in this picture









10 weeks









18 months


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## abakerrr

My guess is that the dog looks like a purebred bi-color with brindle masking the tan regions. It doesnt seem to be bleed through from a genetically black dog because the black bands don't appear smutty (at least from what i can see off my phone). Below is a picture of a black and tan bitch with brindle masking the tan regions of her body. Totally different looks, because obviously the dog below has far more tan, but likely the same genotype (a^t) at work. I would be really interested in seeing how this dog matures.

K9-Pines.com: German Shepherds - Adult Females - Helga


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## BlackSable44

Samba said:


> Watch out on that DNA testing. The little Jack Russel/Chi mix in our group can back as a poodle/cattledog mix! The owners got their money back from the DNA company. Not so much accuracy with that type of test. If you have DNA from the parents then parentage could be determined by another type of DNA test.
> 
> Your dog does not look sable to me at all. Are you able to get Agouti hairs from him? The agouti striped hairs are on a sable.



Hey Samba, thanks for responding! Yes, I he does have agouti striped hairs!

Loving the dark sables you're all posting!  Pretty puppies!!


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## BlackSable44

Dainerra said:


> Singe is a dark sable, but not black. I've never seen a GSD that looks like your guy though this looks kind of close?
> Photos of East German (DDR) and Czech German shepherd dogs | Facebook



Dainerra THANK YOU for that facebook link of the DDR Black Sable. He has the SAME markings as mine (Except the dog in the photo has more solid 'patch like' markings). The main difference in the two is that the dog in the photo has longer hair. Eros is a short hair. That's the closest resemblance I have seen yet. Thanks a bunch!

Abakerrr --- The link you posted. The pup third one down on the left is very similar. Just much lighter. But the brindle like markings are very compatible to my pups. Thanks!


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## wolfstraum

the problem is that many people call any dark sable a "black sable" - when they really are not....I would hazard that this may really be a true black sable...a nearly black dog, who has the sable undercoat - video of Gordon Fuchsgraben at the WDC shows a black dog who when he moves, you can see the undercoat that makes him a sable...

Probably purebred, and probably really a black sable - JMHO

Lee


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## mharrisonjr26

To my understanding any GSD with the brindle paterning has not been confirmed as purebreed via dna. I thought the brindle was bred out. IMO the markings are definently brindle. No matter what color hes is he is handsome and I hope your happy with him.


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## gagsd

My very dark sable male has markings that "may" appear brindle.... But he is definitely sable. At birth he was nearly all black.


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## gagsd




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## JakodaCD OA

whatever color he is, he is gonna be a looker that's for sure

This was Dodge, whom I'm told was a melanistic bicolor, obviously an adult, but when very young, he basically just had the toe penciling , as he mature, the brown creeped up his legs more










Now this is Masi , I wouldn't call her a black sable, but she's very dark, as a 3-4 wk old puppy









8 weeks old









5 months old









and a few months ago at 3.5 years old


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## BlackSable44

Wow! From 5 months to 3.5 years BIG difference. Sables are exciting colors in terms of how often they change until they're fully mature!


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## Kev

I would consider Masi a black sable 
Mine at 6 1/2 months seem to be a dark sable.


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## Dainerra

wolfstraum said:


> the problem is that many people call any dark sable a "black sable" - when they really are not....I would hazard that this may really be a true black sable...a nearly black dog, who has the sable undercoat - video of Gordon Fuchsgraben at the WDC shows a black dog who when he moves, you can see the undercoat that makes him a sable...
> 
> Probably purebred, and probably really a black sable - JMHO
> 
> Lee


I've been hanging around some groups "specializing" in DDR/Czech dogs and what I've heard described is that a "dark sable" is a dog with a normal tan undercoat but dark or black sabled overcoat while a "black sable" is a sable dog that has a BLACK undercoat? I don't think I've ever seen a dog with a black undercoat though

I'm really glad this topic came up and I'll be checking back. 
It could also be a matter of semantics that varies according to the person you are talking with.


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## Kev

This is what I consider a true black sable
VYBORNY Ox z Jirkova dvora - German Shepherd Dog


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## JakodaCD OA

yes masi has changed alot, in fact she is even blacker today than she was in that last picture..She is still darkening up even at this age


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## Freestep

Since "black sables" seem to be all the rage lately, I see the term bandied about quite a lot. But real black sables are pretty rare, and I have to admit I haven't seen one as a newborn--but I'd imagine there would be some tan somewhere, between the toes, on the vent, behind the ears, around the eyes?

Dainerra posted the link to this dog, and this is what I would consider a "black sable". Look at how even his feet are black. Anything with less black than this, I'd call a "dark sable".










I can understand why the color is becoming popular--it's just stunning.


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## RocketDog

Ooooooo Freestep!!! GORGEOUS!!!


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## wolfstraum

V-14 '11 (USCA) Gordon vom Fuchsgraben - German Shepherd Dog

look at the videos of this dog - esp the first one - I'd call him a black sable....

freestep - who is the dog you posted??? absolutely gorgeous.....

My Csabre is pretty close to a black sable - more than most that people cite as 'black sables'...but she is not as dark as these two!

Lee


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## wildo

wolfstraum said:


> freestep - who is the dog you posted??? absolutely gorgeous.....


Here you go: Filip z Jeniku - German Shepherd Dog


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## Liesje

People ask me if Pan is black sable and I say no, to me he's just sable (to me black sable is what Freestep posted).

Pan was blonde as a puppy









And now


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## Dainerra

wildo said:


> Here you go: Filip z Jeniku - German Shepherd Dog


thanks for posting this Wildo. I think that it got cut off when I was pasting from facebook.  I saw the question and went to find the name. 
This is a gorgeous dog


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## elisabeth_00117

People always refer to Zefra as a "black sable" but she is NOT.

She is what I consider a dark sable (don't even use that term to be honest, I just say sable).
























































This is her brother from another litter - I would consider him a dark sable but still not black.










And a full sister from another litter; again, dark but not black.










And another sister.. 










When I think of black sable, I think of dogs like the posted above (Filip).


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## carmspack

here is what I call black sable '00&'02 WPO CHAMPION Stormfront's Brawnson - German Shepherd Dog 
V (LGZS) Aron vom Poppitz - German Shepherd Dog

SG Addi von den Tonteichen - German Shepherd Dog
SG Grando Mecklenburger Buffel - German Shepherd Dog

Akut Lablapega who I owned but picture is attachment .

all the dogs I mentioned are part of my genetics .

I have had numerous black sable dogs . here I one of them "Pez"


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## carmspack

Breeders of German Shepherds & Cairn Terriers | NH & MA | New Hampshire & Massachusetts - Pam Lake, Owner this is a nice web site that lets you see black sable pups at different ages . Also check out Pam's "retired" page for some nice samples . 


DDR Klockow's Wasdy - Hena-C Kennels, New Hampshire - Pam Lake, Owner

another Iltis Wildsau V Iltis von der Wildsau - German Shepherd Dog


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## MaggieRoseLee

carmspack said:


> Breeders of German Shepherds & Cairn Terriers | NH & MA | New Hampshire & Massachusetts - Pam Lake, Owner this is a nice web site that lets you see black sable pups at different ages . Also check out Pam's "retired" page for some nice samples .
> 
> 
> DDR Klockow's Wasdy - Hena-C Kennels, New Hampshire - Pam Lake, Owner
> 
> another Iltis Wildsau V Iltis von der Wildsau - German Shepherd Dog


V *Iltis von der Wildsau*


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## cliffson1

Hey Carmen, You always did like Mentor vh Iris.....lol


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## JakodaCD OA

Carmen, actually Klockows Wasdy was my Dodge's sire gorgeous dog inside and out


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## gagsd

Here is the picture I tried posting earlier.


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## JakodaCD OA

is that Masi's half bro??? He has her eyes))


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## gagsd

Yep! That is my Niky-poo

His feet could look brindle, if that were all that were judged.


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## JakodaCD OA

ewww he is so handsome looks like "Dad"


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## Freestep

Posting this photo on Carmen's behalf--http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=562876

Dam of RCMP dog “Riggs”


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## GSD07

Aron vom Poppitz is Anton's sire. He is really black sable, he's much blacker in person than on the pics.


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## BlackSable44

OK. For those of you who've been following this thread from it's original postings...

I got my pup's DNA results. (even though they aren't 100% accurate.. as someone mentioned earlier.. *maybe they got the swabs mixed?* I find that this test has great reviews and good standards)

It came back stating that he is purebred. However it suggested that he was of a foreign or rare lineage of GSD. This test is comparing to the majority of USA dogs. My pup's grandparents were imported from a breeder in Mexico which would explain such results in the DNA testing.

More good news.. I was able to get more information on the Breeder and have his contact information. I will be able to retrieve his pedgree this way. 

 Although this is all very good and that I have come to some conclusions regarding my puppy's pedigree he is an excellent dog. He is my first German Shepherd and he is everything and more than I expected him to be. I love him no matter what he is or is not!

Thanks again for all the helpful tips, photos of puppies/dogs and other information regarding his coloring!!


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