# 10 Month Old Brothers Fighting



## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

Sorry this is a little long winded. I have two 10 month old male purebred GSDs who are litter mate brothers (see picture below from December). I raised Hans since he was seven weeks old. I later acquired his brother Kaiser from the person who bought him from the breeder. Long story. I actually had posted a thread on here just prior to that asking if two male GSDs could live together because I was considering getting him a companion. I was considering females, but I had specifically asked about the males to see if I could make that an option. Many posters said they never had problems with males, and a few said they might fight. I was optimistic because Hans and Kaiser were 6 months old at the time that they could get along.

They did get along just fine up until about a month ago. We have had about 5 fights now in the past month. I mean real fights too. Hans starts them all. The first 3 or so were broken up quickly. They were all in the house. The 4th took me a few tries to get Hans to quit re-engaging. Kaiser is almost an even match and doesn't back down. They’re both close to 100 lbs. The 5th fight was just yesterday and was in the yard. It was bad. My teenage son was bit trying to separate them, and I had to run out in the snow in slippers to help. It took everything we had to separate them. It was scary. Fortunately neither was injured. I have no idea how. For the record, Kaiser was neutered in the beginning of December. I wouldn’t have done it that soon, but he had an undescended testicle that the vet wanted to get out sooner than later so it didn’t become an issue. Hans is intact and will be until he’s at least a year and a half or two.

Hans is very attached to me and has been ever since he was little. He’s by my side always. One of the negatives in having multiple dogs is the lack of individual attention. When either of them starts to play with me or another family member the other wants to get involved. Separating them can be done, but the fights usually happen when we’re all together just watching TV or something. Hans will immediately go after Kaiser when he interferes. It’s gotten worse, and from what I’ve read these pack issues only become worse as they mature. I think Hans is basically resource protecting. The resource is the individual attention from family or just the family in general. He feels that Kaiser threatens that, and he aggresses toward him. Hans is never like that in any other situation and gets along with every dog he has met. He’s not animal aggressive, they can eat in the same room, I can take away his food or toys, all of that. They even share toys. It’s only when Kaiser gets involved with individual play time with a family member that it becomes an issue, and he never had a problem with it until a month ago or so. Yesterday my son was playing with them in the yard when Hans turned on Kaiser. So it’s clear to me what’s causing it. Right now it’s only when people are around because the attention from people is what Hans defends. I’m concerned though that as they continue to mature that the resource protection may turn to food, toys, etc. If that happens, they may fight when we’re not around which could result in serious injuries.

I did a lot of reading on here and training articles. I wasn’t very optimistic based on what I read. It looks like I essentially have three choices. Keep them separated all or most of the time, re-home one of them, or get an animal behaviorist to work with them. Even with the behavior work, many people said I may not be able to trust them together ever again. Keeping them separated could work, but it’s not very realistic for me. My house isn’t big, and it would essentially be a punishment to whichever one wasn’t with us if we’re home. The whole purpose of adding Kaiser was as a companion when we were gone and a playmate for additional exercise. Behavioral work might help, but if I can’t trust them together even after that, why would I go through all of that? I’m thinking I might need to re-home one of them, and truthfully it would have to be Kaiser. I know that he’s not starting the fights, but I couldn’t part from Hans. He’s my dog. I mean I raised him since he was little, and he’s just my buddy. Kaiser has been with us for 4 months. It’s hard to explain I guess. The whole thing is sad because they got along great for the first few months, and I thought we would be fine. Kaiser is a very sweet and loving dog too. From what I have read, this will only get worse though. I have a responsibility to protect them, and I’m simply unsure that I can guarantee their safety any more unless they are completely separated.

Thoughts?








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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Ask yourself if you want live like this for another 12 years. Even with a behaviorist it will be tough as you have to do that work with no guarantee for peace and harmony. I would keep the one you like the best and rehome the other. It will be painful for a while but everyone, including both dogs, will be happier in the end.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It sounds like it's been an ongoing issue with lots of things pointing at a future problem because it wasn't nipped in the bud early on. As an owner of multiple dogs and males close in age I can tell you that it would have ended immediately in my house. My youngest male pup started exhibiting this behavior, it stopped, came back and once he realized I wasn't allowing it, it has stopped permanently. Do you put yours in a crate? Have you done any obedience classes with them? Do you spend time with each of them or are they always together? Part of owning more then one dog is working with each dog and treating them as individuals.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Since it hasn't been going on for too long, I would definitely try the behavioral route if you want to keep both. Keeping them apart all the time will just be extra stress and rehoming is a last option (though still to be considered). A good behaviorist could come in and look at your interactions and help you set up a new way of interacting with them. One that focuses on teaching them to be patient while one is receiving attention so that they can get attention in turn. Even so, it is true that you may never be able to trust them together, but it really all depends on how well they react to some behavioral modification. Keep the rehoming option open, but you do have another route you can try first if you feel you can handle the extra work.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Agree with llombardo


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Best solution is to rehome one of the dogs. Raising two puppies together is not generally a good idea and what your viewing is mostly a rank drive issue and in my view it's starting a little early, usually 12 to 18 month range is when this happens.

But here are things you need to know:
You should put a drag leash on these dogs...short leash with no collar to get caught up on furniture.

More here:
Leerburg | Dealing with the Dominant Dog
Get a muzzle for one or both, I used this:
A Great Small And Lightweight Nylon Mesh Muzzle
It's not as secure as a real basket muzzle but the dog can pant and drink water take snacks, it's good with supervision but a dog can pull it off if he really wants to!

You should know this:
Leerburg Dog Training | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt

See Rank Drive here:
(Elements of Temperament, by Joy Tiz )

Way to late but...you should have read this first:
Leerburg | Raising Two Pups at a Time: Why It's a Bad Idea

Pack structure:
https://suite.io/adrienne-farricelli/2t5h2q5

Best policy is always have one well trained dog before adding a second! That usually takes a year but "I" would say two years with a GSD...that's just me!

Had you done that...you "might not have these problems now but this is most likely a rank drive issue, two mature adult males and both want to be top dog!

A female instead of a male would most likely have let you skate by on this one. And although you may find it hard to believe...two females that don't like each other is infinitely worst than what you are seeing!

Best pairing is usually a male and female. I added a male GSD to my pack M/F and had rank drive issues with my GSD so still no guarantee, I screwed up in the management part! Door dash Rocky GSD got tired of losing out to Gunther! 
I had no idea it was a problem!!?? Management is the key as llombardo stated.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If they aren't both neutered, that could help, statistically speaking, and when coupled with behavior support...probably would even more so:



> Ben and Hart at the University of California carried out one of the most extensive surveys on the effects of gonadectomy on dogs, finding that at least in intermale aggression, aggression was reduced by neutering in 60% of cases with rapid reduction in 25%, and gradual reduction in 35% (Fogle, 1990, p. 53).


from The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior | Association of Animal Behavior Professionals


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Rehome Kaiser. It's not fair to them or to you to be living like this.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

I would choose one to rehome.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would probably rehome Kaiser. He looks and sounds like a nice dog. If you think he has a nice temperament and would be a great dog for another family, I would rehome him over spending a lot of time and money on trying to correct behavior that may only worsen as they continue to mature. Some males get along, some don't. I've had experiences with both. It's been worse with males that were same breed and closer in age and size, so with littermate males I would not expect them to start getting along, especially if they're already fighting at 10 months. Doesn't mean they are bad dogs or you're a bad owner! If you are really attached to Hans and he is the one starting things, and if Kaiser has a nice temperament and is a healthy dog, it sounds like re-homing him is a win-win for both.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Try neutering one of them. I raised two litter-mate brothers and a sister too. I inadvertently made one of them the leader by neutering the other one. I didn't do this on purpose. No one had warned me about multiple dogs from the same litter. I just couldn't afford to get them all fixed at once, by the time I got the other one neutered pack order had been established. I don't know if it will work but seems to me it might be worth a try if you don't want to give one up.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Try neutering one of them. I raised two litter-mate brothers and a sister too. I inadvertently made one of them the leader by neutering the other one. I didn't do this on purpose. No one had warned me about multiple dogs from the same litter. I just couldn't afford to get them all fixed at once, by the time I got the other one neutered pack order had been established. I don't know if it will work but seems to me it might be worth a try if you don't want to give one up.


I dont think its as simple as that.. Anyways the one dog is already neutered... He said so in his post.

I noticed at dog parks that even neutered dogs are more volatile around Intact dogs, than they would be with another neutered dog..
Dog on dog aggression at dog parks is not usually always initiated by intact dogs.. They are picked on more by neutered dogs. Pheromones of some sort rubs them the wrong way about them, even if they themselves are neutered.

Neutering both would probably help. 
If you are going to neuter one, you need to select carefully which one it will be. (Not related to OP but for others reading)

On a side note, I don't know why OP was advised or wanted to have two male or two female dogs...
I am led to believe by most breeders and things I have read.. Also personal experience at dog parks... 
Males are generally the most volatile with each other...
I noticed that females can also be volatile with each other...
Male/Female is often the best combination.
Anyways this last snippet of advice is a bit too late.

I think the best solution is to try separate, work with a professional, and actively ask for opportunities to re-home.. 

(So you are not in a situation of last minute giving up to a shelter etc...)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rehome Kaiser. Contact a rescue to help find a good, safe, home. Do it sooner rather than later because continued aggression towards him can cause him to become dog aggressive. He might develop a "I'll get them before they get me" fear aggression. Been there, still doing it.

Get a trainer from Hans so you can learn to diffuse him and deal with his resource guarding you.

Dogs fighting is just a chance you take when you have more than one. 98% of the time they are fine. Then you get that one dog that just can't deal. It's nobodies fault. It just is.


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

I appreciate the input. I do feel bad because I'm in my 40s with kids in college, and I've raised dogs before. I actively work with both Hans and Kaiser in training (separately) although the harsh winter in northern Ohio has slowed that down. 

I thought I had done my homework, but I didn't acquire enough knowledge on two male GSDs in particular to do some of the things with them that I should have in the past few months. I haven't given up yet though. They won't be 10 months old until tomorrow, so I'm holding on to hope that I can correct Hans' behavior. It's narrowed down to a specific type of incident that causes the reaction, so I'm going to spend some time possibly even setting him up for it and correcting before it starts. I'll see how it goes in a controlled environment and if he responds. I really think some of the lashing out is a result of the winter blues. They're cooped up more than usual because of the extremely cold temperatures, and I think there's some restlessness going on. That may be a factor in why Hans has acted up recently. He went through December and January with less exercise than he was used to, and he might just be frustrated. 

I had this conversation with my wife and kids last night, and I'm not very popular with them right now for suggesting that we might have to re-home Kaiser. I want to make sure the situation isn't irreversible before I re-home him. I'm still doing research, and much of the input on here so far has been helpful.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Toolman5 said:


> I appreciate the input. I do feel bad because I'm in my 40s with kids in college, and I've raised dogs before. I actively work with both Hans and Kaiser in training (separately) although the harsh winter in northern Ohio has slowed that down.
> 
> I thought I had done my homework, but I didn't acquire enough knowledge on two male GSDs in particular to do some of the things with them that I should have in the past few months. I haven't given up yet though. They won't be 10 months old until tomorrow, so I'm holding on to hope that I can correct Hans' behavior. It's narrowed down to a specific type of incident that causes the reaction, so I'm going to spend some time possibly even setting him up for it and correcting before it starts. I'll see how it goes in a controlled environment and if he responds. I really think some of the lashing out is a result of the winter blues. They're cooped up more than usual because of the extremely cold temperatures, and I think there's some restlessness going on. That may be a factor in why Hans has acted up recently. he went through December and January with less exercise than he was used to, and he might just be frustrated.
> 
> I had this conversation with my wife and kids last night, and I'm not very popular with them right now for suggesting that we might have to re-home Kaiser. I want to make sure the situation isn't irreversible before I re-home him. I'm still doing research, and some of the input on here so far has been helpful.


Another consideration if you find a suitable home. And that is the route you decide to go.

Maybe its best for the new owner to make the neutering decision on a pure-bred dog.

At the end of the day it is all a weigh up.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'd go to crate and rotate; Since you think you have the trigger figured out, avoid the trigger; Give each dog more seperate time; I'd treat Hans as the top dog (because you have had him longer). That means he gets everything first although they both get equal things.
That's what I've got to add to this. You will need to be on top of this because they are young and if not managed the behavior will get worse and someone will be seriously hurt.
You might win your family over to rehoming if you get them to look at the photos of dog bite wounds on Leerburg.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> On a side note, I don't know why OP was advised or wanted to have two male or two female dogs...


Many of enjoy larger packs. I have had up to 5. There is no way to avoid multiple males or females. I have found 2 females can be worse although I currently have two females who get along just fine.


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

Based on some of the comments here, I believe I will separate them more often. I do have an XL crate made by Kong, but it took up so much space that it was put away after Hans was able to have free run of the house. He was crated for almost 6 months and gradually given more house privileges as he earned them. I think I may be able to gate one at a time in the kitchen and let the other have individual time with the family. I will rotate that and also work with them together at times to correct the behavior right as it starts. I will see where that gets us.

Btw, here is the post I made before I got Kaiser when I was looking at adding a companion. I noted that only one response said not to get two males.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/493441-two-male-gsds-living-together.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Regardless of what people responded in your original thread, the bottom line is you have a resource guarder. That is the issue, not the sex of the dogs. If you had a female, you would most likely be encountering the same issue. The problem is Hans, not the two males together. Resource Guarding...get a trainer to evaluate these dogs and help you.

Personally, I would rehome Kaiser before he is ruined from being attacked on a regular basis. Crate and rotate until you get this fixed one way or the other.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Toolman5 said:


> I appreciate the input. I do feel bad because I'm in my 40s with kids in college, and I've raised dogs before. I actively work with both Hans and Kaiser in training (separately) although the harsh winter in northern Ohio has slowed that down.
> 
> I thought I had done my homework, but I didn't acquire enough knowledge on two male GSDs in particular to do some of the things with them that I should have in the past few months. I haven't given up yet though. They won't be 10 months old until tomorrow, so I'm holding on to hope that I can correct Hans' behavior. It's narrowed down to a specific type of incident that causes the reaction, so I'm going to spend some time possibly even setting him up for it and correcting before it starts. I'll see how it goes in a controlled environment and if he responds. I really think some of the lashing out is a result of the winter blues. They're cooped up more than usual because of the extremely cold temperatures, and I think there's some restlessness going on. That may be a factor in why Hans has acted up recently. He went through December and January with less exercise than he was used to, and he might just be frustrated.
> 
> I had this conversation with my wife and kids last night, and I'm not very popular with them right now for suggesting that we might have to re-home Kaiser. I want to make sure the situation isn't irreversible before I re-home him. I'm still doing research, and much of the input on here so far has been helpful.



If you've narrowed down the trigger, that is good. Crate and rotate works as well, you certainly don't have to rehome, but if you decide that is best, it may be the best option. Lots of people do crate and rotate dogs (or have dogs that basically live in crates or kennels unless it's "their turn" to work or be in the house). You'll probably have to experiment and see what works best for your living situation and your family.

I also have two male GSDs and just play it month by month. I can't assume they will be best buds forever, but I try my best to set them up for success. A spat here and there is not the end of the world. Previously, I had two males that were OK with each other (never a fight or spat) until the younger turned 2 years old and almost to the day, he decided he wanted to run the show and attacked the other dog any chance he got. His constant bullying and instigating fights was not tolerated by me. But, there are plenty of people with multiple males, even higher drive intact males such as mine, that never have problems. It really depends on the individual dogs and dynamics. Right now I have a father and son. The son is neutered. Neither is permitted to resource guard me. The son can be a toy hog, so I am careful having them together when there are high value toys around. Luckily the father (the intact one) has been around many dogs his whole life and is very averse to conflict between dogs. He doesn't pick fights and even if another dog is being a jerk to him, he will generally shrug it off and walk away (unless he's being downright attacked, then it's a case of him not starting fights but definitely finishing them!). I watch my males' interactions closely, try to set them up for success, praise and reward good behaviors, but I know that if things go sour as the younger ages, I may have to separate them if I want to keep them. It's just something I have to be prepared to do (or be OK with rehoming one) when owning this breed.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I think I may be able to gate one at a time in the kitchen and let the other have individual time with the family. I will rotate that and also work with them together at times to correct the behavior right as it starts. I will see where that gets us.


I definitely wouldn't use a gate.. To easy to knock down or jump over.. Rather a crate like others have suggested... That way you know they are secure..


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Many of enjoy larger packs. I have had up to 5. There is no way to avoid multiple males or females. I have found 2 females can be worse although I currently have two females who get along just fine.


He only wanted two dogs. Your situation and his are not the same.
Yes many dogs can co-exist irrelevent of sex.. But its a probability game at the end of the day.
He was somehow advised to go with 2 male or 2 female based on what he said in his post.
Given that he wanted two dogs.. And that he did not mind if they were male/female..
It's reasonable to conclude that best success would be one of each.
The other consideration of-course is Neutering/dealing with a female in heat/etc
He may not have wanted to Neuter, or to deal with a female in heat.

From a getting along perspective however... I strongly stand that the chance of 2 males being volatile is much stronger.

Anyways, as others said there are other considerations at play. And the fact that they have two males is done and dusted.


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

Lykoz, you're correct. I was looking at getting an adult dog initially. I actually looked for a female first knowing I would need to have her spayed. I just kind of fell into the brother situation, and from what I heard it sounded like I would likely be fine with them together. I knew who the parents were, the breeder, and it was his BROTHER! Sounded good. 

It was my responsibility to do more research first. I had done a ton on raising a GSD puppy but not any on raising two males other than inquiring on here. The situation is not without hope though. I have a good gameplan now, and I'll work to correct this.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Toolman5 said:


> Lykoz, you're correct. I was looking at getting an adult dog initially. I actually looked for a female first knowing I would need to have her spayed. I just kind of fell into the brother situation, and from what I heard it sounded like I would likely be fine with them together. I knew who the parents were, the breeder, and it was his BROTHER! Sounded good.
> 
> It was my responsibility to do more research first. I had done a ton on raising a GSD puppy but not any on raising two males other than inquiring on here. The situation is not without hope though. I have a good gameplan now, and I'll work to correct this.


Well I would say the breeder had a responsibility to weigh up the pro's and con's with you.

Anyways like I said, that is over.

I really hope you can find some sort of solution. I recommend a good experienced trainer to help you deal with it.

Maybe if you post the trainer maybe the users can help sort the ideal trainer for you.. Dog training is very unregulated. So you can go just as wrong as you can go right.

Maybe other users can give you better suggestions.

Growing up, I have had 8 dogs.. Not at the same time.. 

But never really had a male on male situation. Had some female on female.
But the ages of the dogs and breeds kind of minimised volatile situations.

Suffice to say, I have never had any dangerous dog on dog aggression with my own dogs.

So would not know how to deal with it at all other than an obvious separation of the dogs.

Its very unfortunate situations that is not the owners fault.. It can happen..

It will put some stress on the dogs, and the rest of the family.

As the responsible adult and head of your family, i can imagine how hard it must be to see this all critically and weigh it up...

I cant imagine many younger kids understanding that they have to lose a cared for family pet.

I really feel for this situation.
It can happen to anybody, and is not pleasant.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I will be following your posts closely for updates as you work through this challenge. My GSD littermate (males) are almost 8 months old now. We've had them since 7 wks...against the collective advice from members of this forum. So far our boys are doing ok together. We don't crate/ rotate but would if they were not getting along. We keep them as busy as possible.... Three classes/ wk for each of them and daily training sessions. We alter our work schedules so one of us is ALMOST always home with them. Occasionally, when we are both working we take them to an in-home pet sitter and she supervises them constantly.. We are fortunate to have found a great pet sitter and are fortunate to have flexibility with work schedules. However, it's an overwhelming schedule for us. Would never do this again but are equally bonded to both so can't imagine having to consider re homing. However, I am terrified that one day soon the boys will stop getting along with each other and we will have to separate them. For now we focus on trying to make sure everything is as even as possible and is fair. I constantly find myself trying to read their body language/ facial expressions.. And we never tolerate squabbles.... They can play/ wrestle but if it begins to escalate we use the "knock it off" command or blow a compressed air container. Sometimes I open the back door and send them to the back yard.... They understand. I feel your pain and hope you can find a way to work this out. Hang in there... Spring is only a couple of months away!


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

Lykoz, The breeder wasn't involved. I bought Kaiser several months later from his original owner.

Thank you for the considerate remarks, but some of this is my fault. I could have created a better situation so that this problem never started or at least was less likely to start. They just got along so well with each other that I didn't feel the need to separate them. ****, they still love to play together and lay next to each other. When they're apart they act all pathetic wondering where the other went. 

I think with Hans becoming attached to us as a pup, I didn't fully understand the reaction that inserting Kaiser would eventually create. Hans actually didn't have issues with Kaiser at all for several months, so I thought they'd be fine together. It seems that I didn't anticipate that dynamic changing as they matured.


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

Jake and Elwood, I didn't see your post until after I posted the one above. Sounds familiar. It sounds like the biggest thing I needed to do that I didn't was separate them regularly so each got individual time with us. They got along so well that I didn't think I needed to. As you have read though, that changed suddenly at about the 9 month mark. It was either maturity or the winter blues (or both) but Hans just had enough and started to act on his displeasure with having his individual time interrupted.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Toolman, I went back and read your original thread, when you were looking to get a male. You said most people thought it would be OK. Here is the problem. In your original thread, you spoke of getting an adult male and were also open to a female. It wasn't until your very last post you brought up adopting a litter mate. I imagine your thread was lost in the shuffle, after that, as there were no additional posts from anyone.

I can guarantee, had your title been "Thinking about adopting my pup's litter mate" you would have gotten very different advice. Some people have been successful with litter mates. In most cases, it is a very bad idea. You say, "It was his BROTHER" like that is a good thing. It isn't. This was just very, very important information that was, unfortunately, missed in your first post.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Crate and rotate and monitor carefully. We are slowly fixing most of our dogs but we did have 1 intact female, 3 intact males (all GSDs) and then a neutered and a spayed dog. They were capable of running all together BUT one of them was a big jerk and had to be watched to not start things. Once we neutered him (with a LOT of careful monitoring and corrections for being a jerk), and started to introduce more time with the other male, we didn't have as many problems.


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom, you're right about my post. At the time I posted it I had no idea I would end up with his brother. I was simply inquiring about the viability of having two males. 

I capitalized BROTHER because of MY thoughts on how nice that would be because I knew the dog's lineage and where he came from. I obviously didn't know some of the possible pitfalls, as I have already admitted.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Please keep us posted on your progress and decisions.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Toolman5 said:


> and it was his BROTHER! Sounded good.


Dogs don't have any notion of brotherhood.

If you decide to do this, you were going to have to be vigilant 100% of the time, and gates won't cut it.
Good luck.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Guys is there nobody with experience that has dealt with this before and succeeded?

I think that would be very helpful.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes actually I have, to the extent it will ever be, and I don't have time to get in to it now. And I still recommend the one be rehomed.

Lies has experience with it. Two males in her home. She rehomed one. He's now a national level IPO competitor.

Falon posted above. She's experiencing it.

*The best advice for the OP is to get at trainer if he wants to have a hope of fixing this.*

*If he doesn't hire a trainer, rehome Kaiser before he becomes fear aggressive from being attacked.*

Second, keep them separated. For many reasons, which I don't have time to get into right now, but every time they have a fight the stress hormones go thru the roof. It takes a couple of weeks to get that out of their system and the only way to do that is keep them separate. If you don't, you have a higher chance of having more fights.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you are looking for a peaceful co-existence with your two male dogs, the way things are for you, you can forget it; it will be life long managemant and vigilance. Are you willing to crate-rotate for the next 12 years? That is a tough call for the average pet owner. There will always be a chance for them to get into a fight since we as, humans, are not that consistent . Living separate lives makes it even harder to ever get along for them. You have your heart in the right place but it would be good to look at the reality.
Aren't dogs supposed to enrich your life, not get all stressed about? If you commit fully and put yourself and family second place, you could try. The problem is that "sorry" often comes too late. 
Also this issue between the male dogs doesn't have anything to do with the weather or being brothers. They are just too competetive and equal in strength.( I lived 14 years with two intact males peacefully but one was the strong and assertive one and the other very soft and forgiving and two years younger than the strong one).
You can make it as dramatic for the "kids" as you want but rehoming one of the dogs will teach them a valuable lesson: 1. never get a dog on an impulse / heart decision but research well. 2. it is OK to put humans first and rehome responsibly in the interest of people and dogs. 3. It is OK to admit that you need to change your mind, based on the given developments.
I consider it a cliche by saying "once a dog, always keep the dog or "how do I justify this to the kids?" (aren't they old enough to understand?)
I know this is tough but be smart.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lykoz said:


> Guys is there nobody with experience that has dealt with this before and succeeded?
> 
> I think that would be very helpful.


Experience is only relevant to the individual context.

I had two intact males, one picking fights so I sold him to a good friend who was a good match for his temperament and also had opportunities to train and compete with this dog (higher drive working line dog purchase for training and competition) that I would not have had. Yes, I miss training that dog and I definitely would have continued his training and trialing, but I do not regret selling him. The main reason is that I don't live alone, I have a husband and family. My sister is often at my house or taking care of my dogs. I have friends and family that drop over. As much as I love my dogs and love having dogs, I will not have my life dictated by my dogs deciding when they will get along. Also, it's one thing if you have two males that occasionally spat over *something* (high value food, toy, etc) but another thing to have one male that just wants to be rid of the other forever. I was never afraid of my dogs or felt *I* could not manage them, but my husband is not a dog person and he was not able to be as careful as me. It created a situation where a fight broke out and I ended up in the ER. I did not want my marriage strained by dogs who clearly didn't like each other anyway, and I had a good friend offering to take the offending dog and give him as many opportunities as I could hope for. It was a win-win.

Now I have two males again (and in fact, always had a third male who just gets along with everyone, never causes tension or fights), but the dynamics are very different. Whether it will work forever, only time will tell. I can only tell you that right now, they are fine. I went home over lunch and they were chasing each other around the yard, with one stopping to submissively lick the other's face and grovel. However he is young, things can change very quickly when a dog matures. Best case scenario, they are fine together even if they ignore each other for the most part. Worst case, I separate them. I've made some changes in how my house is setup and how my dogs are kept when I'm not around, so it's much easier for me to keep dogs separate and for my sister to stay at my house with 3 of the 4 dogs and not have to worry about fights.

I personally would never keep two littermates, even opposite sex. I like to have dogs that are 2+ years apart in age because I think it's easier on my training and they seem to get along better when I'm adding a puppy to an adult or group of adults. Plus I don't want to deal with two dogs having all the same age-related health problems at a time. That's just me though. I have a father-son combo right now so maybe I'm crazy for that!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> Guys is there nobody with experience that has dealt with this before and succeeded?
> 
> I think that would be very helpful.


I successfully raised brothers, but no one liked my solution. I neutered one young and kept the other one intact until full maturity. 

I have also successfully had many adult males who are not related live together happily in my packs. I have had an Akita male living with a Boxer mixed with stupid male who later lived with the two shepherd brother males after one of the shep brother males passed successfully the other successfully lived with a border/collie lab pit mix male. 

I have also had many females successfully live together and one very unsuccessful attempt between a shep female and a great dane female that ending with crate and rotate until I re-homed the great dane. Those two wanted to kill each other and no amount of leadership and training on my part could convince the great dane she didn't want to kill the shepherd. 

Just as you said in an earlier post to me.... 



> He only wanted two dogs. Your situation and his are not the same.


There is no one who is going to be in the exact same situation as his. The personalities of the dogs and the people involved are gong to make a huge difference on what will and won't work. All we can do is give suggestions.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I raised two littermates, first got one and two months later the other (the owner could not keep the second one). They were iffy with each other as 4 month old puppies, the one I got first was the underdog of the litter and gained self confidence during the two months he was the boss. I was lucky to find a good trainer and the obedience made a huge difference. They required some level of management all the time, but it was not very difficult for me. I had to make sure they had a ball in their mouth every time they were in the yard. I got quite a bit of pressure to rehome one, but it worked out well for us. It is not for everybody though. There is no shame in rehoming if the dogs are not getting along and not happy.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

BTW my guys were also arguing over me and jealous of attention the other one was getting. Each was trained individually first, then I trained them together. Also, they got A LOT of exercise, getting them tired enough worked.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Toolman, I went back and read your original thread, when you were looking to get a male. You said most people thought it would be OK. Here is the problem. In your original thread, you spoke of getting an adult male and were also open to a female. It wasn't until your very last post you brought up adopting a litter mate. I imagine your thread was lost in the shuffle, after that, as there were no additional posts from anyone.
> 
> I can guarantee, had your title been "Thinking about adopting my pup's litter mate" you would have gotten very different advice. Some people have been successful with litter mates. In most cases, it is a very bad idea. You say, "It was his BROTHER" like that is a good thing. It isn't. This was just very, very important information that was, unfortunately, missed in your first post.


I can guarantee had I been active and seen it ...I would have freaked!!!

Nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake! That's actually the first thing you have to do in order to improve/understand your situation!

LLombordo and Shepard Mom to name two have my deep respect! They have this big pack stuff dialed in! 

I pretty much say...if you start having these issues (pack structure) in the (usually) 12 to 18 month stage...then you've done "something wrong"??

That "something" is going to vary by the individual! And it of course depends on the dog! 

GSD's are high rank drive dogs, most of us have no idea what that is at the time we add a high rank drive dog to our low rank drive dog pack!

Pits and Boxers were my specialty they for the most part are satisfied with there rank in a pack. GSD...not so much!

Save for "top" notch management to some GSD's that number one spot looks ripe for the taking!

Someone on here pointed out the mistake I made in my pack...pretty much simply the "front door dash". My guys would wait patiently till I released them, and I did a Lemans style dash for the front door...Rocky would always lose to his BullMastiff/APBT/Lab pal.

7 months of that with zero issues ( AFAIK??) and at 15 months 116 lbs "Rocky" decided...it was on!


I got alot of things right...but (the door dash) I got wrong! So your not alone!

Just got home, sorry for not being on point at the moment.


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## Toolman5 (May 17, 2014)

UPDATE

First, I'd like to thank so many of you for taking the time to write rather lengthy posts on your experiences and advice. This is a great forum with some great people.

Although it's still a work in progress, I'm seeing very positive results so far. Notably, there has not been a single dog fight since I last posted. My basic failure to learn about "crate and rotate" had started to rear its ugly head because neither of my boys were getting needed individual time. We actually "gate and rotate" in another room that is not visible to our main family room. It's been working well, and both dogs are getting quality time with us without interruptions. It seems to be what Hans needed. I'm certainly getting my exercise too because when one is finally done the other is fresh and ready to go.

I've also been very wary of the times that the two are in the same room and one seeks attention. I make sure to reinforce to the other that they need to wait. Neither of them is very fond of that idea quite yet, but we're getting there. I make sure to give the dog "waiting" attention as soon as I can. I think they're figuring it out. They're still only 10 months old, so it's tough to wait for anything at that age.

Other than that, they still run and play and sleep next to each other just like they always did. I'm in no way suggesting that I'm out of the woods, but I'm seeing a positive response. I will continue to work on this. Also, with the bitter cold here in northern Ohio seemingly lifting, we're able to get them a little more exercise. That seems to help with the frustration level as well.

I'll post more, but thanks again.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Toolman5 said:


> UPDATE
> 
> First, I'd like to thank so many of you for taking the time to write rather lengthy posts on your experiences and advice. This is a great forum with some great people.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. So glad it is working out for you and the advice the other users gave you had such positive results!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Great to hear! 

Your post gives me a chance to help explain what I got wrong!





Toolman5 said:


> I'm certainly getting my exercise too because when one is finally done the other is fresh and ready to go.


I did not realize that till much later! Rocky was loose leash trained, a dog of course needs to know that and he did...so job done?? I had two well trained dogs! That makes "training" an additional dog easier (new dogs picks up on cues) But it turns out that the additional dog being "easy to train" was a trap! I found myself spending "less" one on one time with Rocky! Instead of more...he was picking up on the basics very quickly! Job done...yeah not so much! But living in the desert "walks" were simple! Drive out to the desert open the car door...give the release command and off they go!  

I often say about Dog Parks "...letting your dogs run around out of control with a bunch of dogs teaches your dog ..that you don't matter!" I was "teaching" Rocky that with every trip out to the desert with his own "portable pack!!" Hoosted on my own petard as they say!



It was only "after" Gunthers passing and Rocky showed Human Aggression that I actually spent a lot of one on one time with him! "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog"...stupid dog is not going to bite anyone on my watch was my attititude!!!

I was still ticked off after the crap Rocky had pulled with Gunther!! So teaching this new behaviour out was my goal! But "Rocky" was learning..."hey this guy has my back"...so I don't care what else is going on as long as "he" is with me! 



Toolman5 said:


> I've also been very wary of the times that the two are in the same room and one seeks attention. I make sure to reinforce to the other that they need to wait. Neither of them is very fond of that idea quite yet, but we're getting there. I make sure to give the dog "waiting" attention as soon as I can. I think they're figuring it out.


Yeah I kinda skipped that part! I went with the "I dare you to try it approach!!!! Rocky pretty much accepted that challenge at "unpredictable" moments??? Your approach seems to be much better!

But if one wants to experiance what stitches in the hand feel like...(breaking up fights when the "dare" is accepted) then go with the "I dare you to...approach??

* "NOT"* _a recommend course of action_!:blush:



Toolman5 said:


> Other than that, they still run and play and sleep next to each other just like they always did. I'm in no way suggesting that I'm out of the woods, but I'm seeing a positive response. I will continue to work on this. Also, with the bitter cold here in northern Ohio seemingly lifting, we're able to get them a little more exercise. That seems to help with the frustration level as well.
> 
> I'll post more, but thanks again.


Good solid advice! Now you watch them closer and understand "management" is key! I kinda skipped that part also...a muzzle is not a solution, it's a bandaide and the underlying "issues"that make a muzzle a necssity...need to be addressed!

The school of hard knocks worked for me... but I think what your doing is a much better approach!

Good job!!!:hug:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think I read somewhere that someone said two males is can be more volatile. I agree with this but anytime a female is involved it can be just as volatile and probably more dangerous. I have 8 dogs, 6 are males. They are 5, 3, 2, 2, 1 and 6 months. IMO they are easier to control and back off more quickly then the females. I've seen both my females fight and even though they weren't that bad I was able to see what they are capable of and I wouldn't mess with either of them. They don't start fights but they will finish them. If I were to have two dogs it would be one of each or two males. If it had to be two females I would be very selective. 

Any new behaviors that surface have to be dealt with right away. Individually and then as a group. We have group counseling in my house


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Our litter mates (8 1/2 month old intact boys) are maturing well. I realize we are NOT out of the woods but we DO NOT tolerate aggression within the pack. It is a full time job to keep our boys engaged and occupied but we believe it will pay off in the end. We focus on the positive and try to glaze oner any negative behaviors. Our boys enjoy training and we use that as our best defense against aggressive behavior.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Keeping these boys engaged is the key to success. Training, playing, loose leash walking, etc. keeps them happy and engaged. It is the most exhausting challenge of my life but they are worth it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> If it had to be two females I would be very selective.


Yep it can be done and has been by many! But Boxer rescue policy as regards to female Boxers in the same home...is just say "NO!!"



llombardo said:


> Any new behaviors that surface have to be dealt with right away. Individually and then as a group. We have group counseling in my house


Yep it can be done and has been by the few that "are" among the elite, in "pack management!"


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Yep it can be done and has been by many! But Boxer rescue policy as regards to female Boxers in the same home...is just say "NO!!"
> 
> Yep it can be done and has been by the few that "are" among the elite, in "pack management!"


I think most rescued dealing with Pit bulls don't or shouldn't allow two females together ever either. I would be hesitant with Chows too.

Having a big pack takes adjusting but once you get it down it can be smooth sailing. I think you really have to know each dog individually really well.


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