# Czech GSD



## Verivus

Hi,

I joined this forum to get some expert opinions on whether or not this sounds viable.

I want to get a male 'old world' Czech GSD puppy next year, around August 2011. However, I have some specific criteria that the pup must have: excellent nerve and discretion, an 'alpha male' of his litter, a pup that will grow up to have true man-stopping power; also I don't want the excessive prey drive that some of the newer Czech lines have. Is it fruitless to try to stack the odds in my favor by choosing sire/dam pairs with pedigrees that have a heavy emphasis on z PS lines and police dogs? Do you know any kennels that may pique my interest?

An example pedigree:
Astor Von Der Suden - German shepherd dog


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## Zoeys mom

What will this dog be used for?


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## Verivus

I intend to train the pup in personal protection. As of right now I don't think I'll be participating in any sport competitions. I just prefer old world Czech GSDs. I have done my research on the working/show lines, and the different main lines (East/West German, Czech, American) so I know what I'm getting into.


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## Zoeys mom

Having a personal protection dog is a huge responsibility and will take a lot of training for you as well as the dog. I'm no expert on lines by far, but it was my understanding even older Czech lines possessed a lot of prey drive and it was part of their effectiveness? I may be wrong though honestly. If however, you really need a personal protection dog going for lines that have produced other protection and K-9 animals is a good start for sure. I just have to add almost any GSD is going to be highly protective of their family, somewhat suspicious of strangers, and aloof. Their look, reputation, and bark alone are a huge deterrence and if this is your first GSD Czech lines are definitely not a starter GSD. But, if you are willing to have yourself trained as much as the dog and spend some time maybe with the different lines before purchasing this dog your odds of success and happiness will increase


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## Lucy Dog

If you're serious about getting a czech working line dog and actually putting it to work, i'd recommend you speak to Chris Wild of Wildhaus kennels. I actually don't know her personally or have one of her dogs, but there are quite a few people here who do and she is also a very active member here. Her user name is Chris Wild.

I've read her posts and she really knows what she's talking about. She is very knowledgeable about the lines you are looking for and would be a good start if you're interested. My recommendation is to at least speak to her and get her professional opinion.


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## Verivus

It's the challenge I find the most fun.  I like training dogs that won't just hang onto my every word, eager to please. I already have a dog that fills the 'cuddlebug' role so I have no problem having an aloof, more independent dog. I also want a dog that is more then willing to step up to the plate when necessary, a dog I can trust my life with when it comes down to it - especially since I tend to go out during the evenings/late nights (I live in Arizona). I know GSDs are typically deterrant dogs anyway and could fulfill most of what I want, but I want a trained protection dog.


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## Zoeys mom

Oh well your trained protection dog will not be independent with you and will be a total cuddlebug- that is a GSD,lol I still don't see your need for a protection dog and hope you understand if your dog attacks someone off of your property warranted and trained you will be held responsible in many states and your dog PTS. I envision you out late with this dog after a few drinks and worry this may happen to you GSD's are also easy to train biddable dogs who want to please you. The challenge is the amount of mental and physical stimulation they require to be happy. A bored and under exercised GSD can be destructive, develop OCD disorders, and have severe behavioral problems. An unsocialized GSD isa flat out liability with strange people and other dogs. I think you need to do a lot more research and assess what it is you actually need and can provide this dog


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## Lucy Dog

Verivus said:


> It's the challenge I find the most fun.  I like training dogs that won't just hang onto my every word, eager to please. I already have a dog that fills the 'cuddlebug' role so I have no problem having an aloof, more independent dog. I also want a dog that is more then willing to step up to the plate when necessary, a dog I can trust my life with when it comes down to it - especially since I tend to go out during the evenings/late nights (I live in Arizona). I know GSDs are typically deterrant dogs anyway and could fulfill most of what I want, but I want a trained protection dog.


Most german shepherds get attached to "their person" by the hip once they develop that bond. If you want a more independent dog and end up with a german shepherd, you're not going to be happy. My GSD is literally attached at my hip every second of the day. Where I go, she follows. If she can't follow, she'll wait until I come back and start to follow again.

If you want a trained protection dog, expect to put in hours and hours of training for years, possibly it's whole life to get what you're saying you want. It's a life long commitment that I hope you're prepared to make. I hope you're ready to put in that kind of commitment because it's not going to just happen over the night. You're going to need the right lines and the right trainers.


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## Verivus

I would say it depends on the individual dog when it comes to being "attached to the hip". I've known GSDs that are like that, and then I've known other GSDs who were more content with lazing about on their own somewhere nearby (especially this one Czech GSD I know, definitely no cuddlebug though nice enough). To clarify, I never said I don't want another cuddlebug; if the pup turned out to be like that I wouldn't have a problem, but if the pup did turn out more independent I wouldn't have a problem either. I do realize protection training is a lifetime commitment. And I know I need the right lines/trainers, which is why I'm doing my research.


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## Lucy Dog

As I said in my above post, speak to Chris Wild. Send her a private message about what you're looking for and see if she's able to help and give you some advice. You will not be disappointed.


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## Verivus

Thank's Lucy, I'll definitely get on that.


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## JakodaCD OA

I guess I have to ask what is "old world czech"? 

If the dog you posted you like, why not go to that breeder? why not go for an adult /older partially trained dog?


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## jaggirl47

A few good kennels that specialize in Czech dogs are

Van Den Heuvel Kennels German Shepherd Dogs Van Den Heuvel k9 406-458-6102
Shepherds By Design German Shepherd breeder, German Shepherd puppies,  Czech German Shepherd Puppies, 815-787-4618
Schraderhaus K9 SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs
Alpine K9 Czech German Shepherd Dogs from Alpine K9
Dragon GSD Dragon German Shepherd, 623-388-0494, German Shepherd Puppies, Czech German Shepherd, Working Dogs, Personal Protection Dogs, Police, K9

I have a 4 1/2 month pup from Shepherds By Design and she is everything I could have asked for. A total brat and absolutely perfect. 
I have also spoken with the owners of all of these kennels. They have all been a huge source of information for me. I think I could own Czech line dogs for 20 years and still need to go out for advice. 
Good luck in your search. I am very happy everyday I went with my Czech line.


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## atravis

Cuddlebugs? HAH! As if. 

Mulder is DDR/Czech, and hardly what I would consider a "cuddlebug". And attached to the hip he most certainly is NOT. Doesn't mean he isn't extremely bonded, he always has an eye out on me, and never misses a step I take... but he doesn't stand, doe-eyed, hanging on my every word. I honestly wouldn't like a dog like that, and GSDs most certainly do not uniformly fit into that description of them. 

A chum of mine has two PPDs that hail from this kennel: New Page 1

I'll try and get her to post here for you, to offer more incite.

Edit: DUR! The dog you posted IS one of her dogs! Astor threw me off... Cain! lol


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## jaggirl47

atravis said:


> Cuddlebugs? HAH! As if.
> 
> Mulder is DDR/Czech, and hardly what I would consider a "cuddlebug". And attached to the hip he most certainly is NOT. Doesn't mean he isn't extremely bonded, he always has an eye out on me, and never misses a step I take... but he doesn't stand, doe-eyed, hanging on my every word. I honestly wouldn't like a dog like that, and GSDs most certainly do not uniformly fit into that description of them.
> 
> A chum of mine has two PPDs that hail from this kennel: New Page 1
> 
> I'll try and get her to post here for you, to offer more incite.
> 
> Edit: DUR! The dog you posted IS one of her dogs! Astor threw me off... Cain! lol


Too true! lol My 10 y/o AL/WGSL/BYBL is a complete cuddlebug and follows me everywhere. My pup is so far from that definition! She will lay on me when she wants to be loved but that normally lasts no more than 5 minutes. lol


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think Chris is incredible, but WGWL seem to be her forte more, while someone like Cliff would be a resource for Czech dogs. I am going to move this thread to a section where he would perhaps see it.


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## jaggirl47

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think Chris is incredible, but WGWL seem to be her forte more, while someone like Cliff would be a resource for Czech dogs. I am going to move this thread to a section where he would perhaps see it.


 
You are so right! I completely forgot to add Cliff as a resource! He knows almost everything. lol


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Now you're in trouble! :rofl:


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## jaggirl47

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Now you're in trouble! :rofl:


 
What's bad is I just sent him a PM yesterday asking him a question! 
Cliff, please don't be upset with me! :blush:


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## holland

So then maybe Cliff can explain what old world czech is-a dog with an old soul maybe??


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## jaggirl47

holland said:


> So then maybe Cliff can explain what old world czech is-a dog with an old soul maybe??


 
I think what the OP wants is a Czech dog with the proven older lines with the temperment and working ability Czech lines are known for. Maybe I am wrong but that's kind of what I am getting from it. People are getting too involved in the term "old world Czech".


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## Verivus

jaggirl47 said:


> I think what the OP wants is a Czech dog with the proven older lines with the temperment and working ability Czech lines are known for. Maybe I am wrong but that's kind of what I am getting from it. People are getting too involved in the term "old world Czech".


Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about.  Thanks for the links by the way, I'll look into those later.

And hi Mulder! Lol, it's Pookie's owner from dogster if you remember.  I changed my mind about groenendaels when I saw this beautiful GSD at the humane society. It was a good thing she was already adopted or else I would have taken her home, lol. And yeah I've been talking with Cain's owner.  I should have known you would be on this forum!


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## atravis

Yes, I like to spread my mischief in various places 

And you're talking to the right person then! lol
Cain's owner is the one I'd go to for advise, as she has the experience with PPDs. I'm sure she also has some good recommendations for kennels as well.

Nothing wrong with a Groener, but there's just some special about a GSD that's hard to pass up!


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## Chris Wild

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think Chris is incredible, but WGWL seem to be her forte more, while someone like Cliff would be a resource for Czech dogs. I am going to move this thread to a section where he would perhaps see it.


Yup, I'm much more familiar with West German lines. I don't have near the familiarity with Czech lines that would be needed to make a recommendation. He's very knowledgeable on these lines, and is my "go to" guy on Czech lines, and in fact when we were shopping for a part Czech line puppy for ourselves (she'll be here this Friday) he was my first call, and we went with selecting lines and breeder he recommended.

*Definitely* contact Cliff!


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## BlackGSD

I think you would be better off getting an older pup or an adult. With ANY baby puppy it is a crap shoot. (No matter HOW they are bred.) 

I had a Czech dog whose sire was Xero z PS. He had CRAZY prey and hunt drive and absolutelty ZERO "seriousness". He LOVED everyone like a typical Golden Retriever! :rolleyes2:


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## jaggirl47

Chris Wild said:


> Yup, I'm much more familiar with West German lines. I don't have near the familiarity with Czech lines that would be needed to make a recommendation. He's very knowledgeable on these lines, and is my "go to" guy on Czech lines, and in fact when we were shopping for a part Czech line puppy for ourselves (she'll be here this Friday) he was my first call, and we went with selecting lines and breeder he recommended.
> 
> *Definitely* contact Cliff!


 
A Czech pup huh? Are we going to start seeing a change to Wildhaus?  lol, just kidding! By the way, and I know this is off the topic, your new pups are adorable. :wub:


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## JakodaCD OA

Eurosport comes to mind and Alpine K9..for czech dogs, but I agree, Cliff is "da man" he knows his stuff


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## Marissa

I agree, I was going to say Eurosport or Schraderhaus k9. I think Shepherds By Design have GORGEOUS dogs as well!!


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## NarysDad

BlackGSD said:


> I had a Czech dog whose sire was Xero z PS. He had CRAZY prey and hunt drive and absolutelty ZERO "seriousness". He LOVED everyone like a typical Golden Retriever! :rolleyes2:


Tracy, It was the line you have as I haven't had much luck with Xero z Pohranicni Straze lines. But just because he didn't show what you were looking for I would not scratch all Z Pohranicni Staze dogs or Policia dogs. Having Z Pohranicni Straze lines and Policia lines will give you some the older Czech lines though


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## BlackGSD

Chuck,

I didn't mean that all z PS dogs were like that. I KNOW they aren't, not by a long shot. My point was that getting a puppy, ANY puppy, from ANY bloodlines, is a crap shoot. If the OP REALLY wants or needs a certain type of temperment, best to buy something OLDER than a baby puppy.


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## onyx'girl

jaggirl47 said:


> A Czech pup huh? Are we going to start seeing a change to Wildhaus?  lol, just kidding! By the way, and I know this is off the topic, your new pups are adorable. :wub:


 Wildhaus *G* litter is a mix of West German and Czech lines. Very nice balanced litter.


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## jaggirl47

onyx'girl said:


> Wildhaus *G* litter is a mix of West German and Czech lines. Very nice balanced litter.


 
Yes I know.  I'm just teasing because I hear the arguments all the time of WG working lines vs Czech lines vs DDR and Chris tends to work more with WG.


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## Ace952

I'm with the other 2 posters that said, go with a older pup. **** save up and get a older one that is already trained. Why take the chance of getting a pup who is unproven and then waiting years to see how it will turn out. 5,000- $7500 is more than reasonable for a trained dog.

Next thing which is more important than the dog is who will you go to for training. Go to the wrong person and they can screw up your "Old world czech" dog.

Lastly, if u need that much protection and need a "man stopper", buy a gun. A lot cheaper.


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## G-burg

WeberHaus German Shepherds


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## atravis

Ace952 said:


> Lastly, if u need that much protection and need a "man stopper", buy a gun. A lot cheaper.


Will this madness ever end?

If you want that much protection, and want and are willing to get a dog that will offer it to you, then get one. 

Some people seem to be under this illusion that we all "need" a high level of protection, because we want a dog who can do this.

Some of us simply _like_ to have it. AND, if we are willing to go through the motions of getting it _properly_, do not need to be questioned by every person who hears the word "personal protection" and has a hissy fit.


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## onyx'girl

A gun is alot cheaper than training a dog in personal protection...not sure there was a hissy fit involved in that post.


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## atravis

Why do people skydive? Its much safer and cheaper to play Monopoly at home.

Because that's what they love, and what they want to do.

If you want a PPD, have the time, the money, and the dedication to do it properly... then go for it. There's more to owning these dogs than JUST the security they offer. Its sad that most people don't seem to get that.


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## BlackGSD

I agree with Jane. I didn't see a "hissy fit".

Often, of someone is THAT bound and determined to do someone harm, they will have a knife or gun themselves. A trained dog is all well and fine, but is no match for a "bad guy" that has a gun himself.

If you are just worried about your typical "trouble maker", then a dog is likely all you need.


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## atravis

Why waste time with a protection phase in schutzhund? Its all a bunch of baloney anyway, and seeing as the dogs are never really going to be using those skills ANYWAY (apparently), why bother?

If schutzhund is a basic gauge on which to measure a dog's ability, real PPD training is the final exam. 

Again, there is more to these dogs than JUST the protection they provide.


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## onyx'girl

Why are you twisting the thread back to your agenda Atravis? This thread is about choosing a breeder.


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## atravis

I have no agenda.

It just gets old hearing the same old song every time anyone asks about training a dog PAST just biting a sleeve.


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## jaggirl47

atravis said:


> I have no agenda.
> 
> It just gets old hearing the same old song every time anyone asks about training a dog PAST just biting a sleeve.


:thumbup: Too true. Well that and when you go against the "popular gang up on someone" mentality with the usuals, well, it always has to be someone else's fault.


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## codmaster

atravis said:


> .........
> If schutzhund is a basic gauge on which to measure a dog's ability, real PPD training is the final exam. Again, there is more to these dogs than JUST the protection they provide.


And there is a LOT more to the GSD than protection of any sort! Even Sch has three parts, it is not just biting a sleeve. 

Then we also have the SAR dogs and the herding dogs and the service dogs as well - each with their own kind of "final exam", don't you think? Not to mention the dogs that excell in the breed show ring.

Isn't that one of the beauties of our breed - the ability as a breed to do very many diverse things very well?


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## GSD07

atravis said:


> There's more to owning these dogs than JUST the security they offer. Its sad that most people don't seem to get that.


 Some people also don't get that these dogs do NOT offer security. They simply buy some time for their owners to pull themselves together and PROTECT themselves and the dog. It is sad that people who want to own PPDs do not understand that.


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## Verivus

Okay I feel like this thread is getting off topic so if you can't offer anything relating to what I asked then please don't post here. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, I just don't want to go through multiple pages of non-related chitter-chatter. Thanks!  

I don't expect the dog to provide me 100% security - I realize there are many things that can easily take down a PPD, guns included. It's just my preference. If I'm going to have a big dog there are things I want to do with them that I can't with my little dog, and personal protection is one of the things I want to do. Thank you to everyone who is trying to help me out. 

I am going to get a gun eventually by the way because I want to pick up hunting.


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## Konotashi

Why not do Schutzhund instead? It also requires hours and hours and months and probably years of training (not speaking from experience, though I wish I was), but without as many risks involved. 

Many GSDs will protect their people with their lives, protection dog trained or not. Many people won't even go near you, with good or bad intentions, if you have a GSD next to you. The mere look and size of them alone is enough to deter a lot of people.


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## Jessiewessie99

I think alot of people are also saying that if some loon breaks into your home and your dog protects your family(PPD or not) and bites the loon, he can turn around and sue you and may win, and they just may cost you your dog's life.

Neither of my dogs are trained in protection, but just their looks and their barks are enough to send people across the street or the other way. I suggest getting into Schutzhund like others have suggested.

I would much rather have a gun, than risk losing my dog.

ETA: Also what does a "Old Czech" GSD look like?


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## Verivus

Konotashi said:


> Why not do Schutzhund instead? It also requires hours and hours and months and probably years of training (not speaking from experience, though I wish I was), but without as many risks involved.
> 
> Many GSDs will protect their people with their lives, protection dog trained or not. Many people won't even go near you, with good or bad intentions, if you have a GSD next to you. The mere look and size of them alone is enough to deter a lot of people.


Yeah I know most people would be deterred just by how big they are and yea most GSD would protect without PPD training. Like I said, it's just what I want to do. I'm considering Schutzhund, but I'd rather do PPD training.


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## Konotashi

I'm just curious, but why do you want to do it over SchH? I think that unless you really, honestly NEED to, you should stick to Schutzhund, but that's just my opinion.


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## Jessiewessie99

Verivus said:


> Yeah I know most people would be deterred just by how big they are and yea most GSD would protect without PPD training. Like I said, it's just what I want to do. I'm considering Schutzhund, but I'd rather do PPD training.


Try Schutzhund first, then go and talk to people who actually do PPD. I hear Schutzhund can be pretty addicting.


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## jaggirl47

Why are so many people trying to tell this guy what he "needs" to do? This thread is about breeders of Czech line dogs, not what the people on here think he should do with the dog. He stated he has read up and has decided this is what he wants to do. Will everyone agree? Of course not. However, he is the one who will make the decision for himself.

Verivus, good luck finding the right dog for you. If you have not PM Cliff yet, you really should.
Also, the term "he" is being used figuratively. No offense intended if you are a she.


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## onyx'girl

Konotashi and Jessiewessie99, neither one of you participate training in either PP or SchH. Why do you feel the need to advise Verivus on what s/he should do with the dog? As Kendra pointed out(and others before her)this thread is about breeders/ Czech lines, not about what they should do with their dog.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Jane and others,,this person is looking for what they are looking for,,no need to go sideways and backwards on this that and every other thing..

Where's CLIFF? )


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## onyx'girl

Out training his dogs?


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## Chris Wild

jaggirl47 said:


> Yes I know.  I'm just teasing because I hear the arguments all the time of WG working lines vs Czech lines vs DDR and Chris tends to work more with WG.


New pupper is actually 1/2 Czech, 1/2 WGR. A cross I personally like very much. :wub:




JakodaCD OA said:


> Where's CLIFF? )





onyx'girl said:


> Out training his dogs?


Probably. 

He just sent me some super nice pics of his young 1/2 Czech, 1/2 WGR dog, full brother to the pup we're getting this week, doing bitework and he looks SUPER nice!


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## Smithie86

I like a 1/2 Czech, 1/2 G cross. That is what Enzo is...


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## Mikey von

jaggirl47 said:


> Why are so many people trying to tell this guy what he "needs" to do? This thread is about breeders of Czech line dogs, not what the people on here think he should do with the dog. He stated he has read up and has decided this is what he wants to do. Will everyone agree? Of course not. However, he is the one who will make the decision for himself.
> 
> Verivus, good luck finding the right dog for you. If you have not PM Cliff yet, you really should.
> Also, the term "he" is being used figuratively. No offense intended if you are a she.


This!


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## Jessiewessie99

onyx'girl said:


> Konotashi and Jessiewessie99, neither one of you participate training in either PP or SchH. Why do you feel the need to advise Verivus on what s/he should do with the dog? As Kendra pointed out(and others before her)this thread is about breeders/ Czech lines, not about what they should do with their dog.


We were just suggesting. I also was going add saying that the OP should contact Cliff, but my editing time was up. I also was just suggesting not saying the OP had to do it. If he/she wants to do PPD fine.

Sorry I even bothered, I was being nice.


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## NarysDad

Well I see this member isn't interested in any mixes and knows what she is looking for. Why is it that when a member comes here and asks questions the threads always gets side lined to what they need rather than what they are looking for?


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## Konotashi

I was just curious why the OP is set on doing Personal Protection training instead of considering Schutzhund.


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## GSD07

Chuck, maybe because it's a public forum, and members here are not paid consultants? Just a thought


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## JakodaCD OA

Chris, ewww you will have to post pics of the new one your getting,,maybe Cliff can show us his czech/wl ,,It's probably the puppy I;ve seen, but Cliff just doesn't post enough pics of his dogs)))))


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## Lucy Dog

JakodaCD OA said:


> Chris, ewww you will have to post pics of the new one your getting,,maybe Cliff can show us his czech/wl ,,It's probably the puppy I;ve seen, but Cliff just doesn't post enough pics of his dogs)))))



I was thinking the same thing. I don't think i've ever seen pictures of any of cliffs dogs. Post some pics cliff!!


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## jaggirl47

So, OP.....did the kennel listings help out at all?

Please all, let's keep this what it's really about, the OP finding a dog he wants. Not personality conflicts.


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## Ace952

It really isn't hard to find dogs that they are looking for. A quick google search can bring up some kennels.

Hope the OP finds what they want and the pup turns out how they want since they are a crap shoot. More important than the dog is the trainer and hope they have a good one picked out.


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## jaggirl47

Ace952 said:


> It really isn't hard to find dogs that they are looking for. A quick google search can bring up some kennels.
> 
> Hope the OP finds what they want and the pup turns out how they want since they are a crap shoot. More important than the dog is the trainer and hope they have a good one picked out.


 
Yes, puppies are a crapshoot. However, going with a highly recommended breeder who does testing on their dogs greatly lessons the chance of the pup having issues. It's good that he knows what he wants and some of us were able to try and point him in the direction of kennels that has what he is looking for.


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## Castlemaid

Another thing I would recommend to the OP is to go with a breeder that has years of hands-on experience training dogs in PPD, Police Work, Schutzhund, and other disciplines that focus on testing the dog for proper balance of drives, biddability, and stability under stress. 

Looking around on the internet, I see a lot of breeders that buy dogs already titled and breed them, and swear up and down on the dogs suitability for whatever venture the buyer is interested in, based only on the dog's pedigree, and the titles they earned under a different handler.

Breeders who breed dogs for police work, and who have produced a high number of dual purpose active-duty police dogs are probably your best best to find what you are looking for. 

I would suggest Suzanne Eviston at
http://www.vongrunheideshepherds.com

Many of her best producing breeding dogs or of Czech and DDR lineage.


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## cliffson1

Hello Folks,
I have given the OP some of my thoughts on breeders of the type of Czech dog she desires. I will say that her example is out of some very good dogs and lines. Brit Elsilu is one of the nicest Czech dogs to come to this country and has an awesome pedigree. I know his importer and owner and we have talked many times. As a matter of fact, the female I imported named Tora,(who had Tom z PS as sire and dam was daughter of Xero z PS, who's dam was out of Koran z PS)was really the "OLD" Czech type, and the owner of Brit imported two sisters of that breeding also.
I seldom post pics because I don't know how to use photo whatever, and my computer skills are lacking. Chris can post the pics or a pic of my 9 month old male that has the Czech type though he is 1/2 Czech/1/2West. These pics are him doing bitework and some people on this forum get upset at seeing a GS bite so I don't bother.
It is difficult to get that older type Czech dog of 10 to 15 years ago. I think the OP has confirmed this from other breeders she talked to. Chuck of Shepherd by Design has some nice lines and dogs from this period. Others also, but in the end it is the integrity of the breeder picking out the puppy that fits the phenotype(looks and structure), that you want and has the genetics to do the kind of work you want. JMO


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## Verivus

Hi guys, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone (especially Chuck and Cliff) who has helped me thus far. For those of you who suggest I try Schutzhund, well, I'll think about it.  I still have quite some time (about 1/2 a year) to choose a kennel (have actually been looking at several already) and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the old and newer lines so I can make a more informed choice when the time comes. For those of you who are curious I'm mainly looking into the Westwood and Alpine k9 kennels, though that's not to say I'm not open to others.


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## jaggirl47

Verivus said:


> Hi guys, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone (especially Chuck and Cliff) who has helped me thus far. For those of you who suggest I try Schutzhund, well, I'll think about it.  I still have quite some time (about 1/2 a year) to choose a kennel (have actually been looking at several already) and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the old and newer lines so I can make a more informed choice when the time comes. For those of you who are curious I'm mainly looking into the Westwood and Alpine k9 kennels, though that's not to say I'm not open to others.


Awesome. Good luck on finishing your search. I absolutely love my Czech girl and she is an absolute firecracker. :wub:


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## atravis

Glad you were finally able to get some good advise :thumbup:


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## cliffson1

Someone asked about the "old Czech" dogs and what they were. I have been able to piece together a little history from Czech friends and due diligence. Let me start by saying the Czech breeders of German Shepherd are too me what the breed should be evolving into without money and ribbons having a dominant voice. If I was to buy a showline dog today it would be from the Czech republic. Their black and Red showlines have much stronger temperament as they won't sacrifice temperament for looks to the same degree as others. When T-Floyd won the universal seiger with a female Mendy, (a showline,universal seiger means the dog competed in the nationals in show and work),she was an Hungarian showline dog by breeding.
The Czech dogs that are an outward expression to the West, has changed a few times in past forty years. Some forty years ago the Czech type dog was a very strong working dog of medium build, somewhat nervy, very high social aggression. This was because of the influence of the Gov in the breed as they were an Eastern bloc nation and the breed was very instrumental in police and military work. These countries at the time didnot have the luxury of countless conformations shows and they also did not have the trade with the west so they couldn't import their dogs out to make money. Around thirty years ago,(give or take), the Czech national breeding powers brought in 5 or 6 DDR dogs to infuse new blood into their lines. These dogs typically had bigger bone, big heads, and were black sable/all black, and bi-color.Some of these dogs Bojar, Iwo, Hassan, Bero, gave a new type look to the Czech dogs. When the curtain came down in late eighties/early nineties this type of Czech dog was being exported as well as the older type. Breeding stations like the z Pohraninci-straze, had these DDR/Czech dogs that were now Czech dogs and had that beautiful head and body that people came to love. These dogs had high defense with moderate prey drive and became extremely successful as police dogs in the America. These breeding stations closed down for good around 2004. (I remember getting a call from Czech republic and was offered a female from the last litter that could use the name z PS, unfortunately I did not need a grown female at that time). For the past 10 years with the free market available and money to be made by exporting working lines, the breed has made subtle adjustments away from the "old Czech" type. Earlier; police types, were main outlet for these working dogs, but the elite sport world shunned them as they were sometimes a tad nervy and social aggression high, and somewhat handler soft. These were not the ingredients for "point" dogs in Sch world. But other breeders wanted to plug into this sport world, and as one Czech breeder told me our genepool is getting too small. Everybody is related to Grim, Tom, Norbo, Titus, and we will soon have backmassing problems. So many Czech breeders started breeding to the West workinglines. This brought stronger nerve and more prey, but also lessened the social aggression that was so desired by the real working world. So here we are today, there are pockets of people who still breed the Old Czech dog with big blocky head, strong bone and good social aggression, but more and more are mixes with west that changes the phenotype as well as genotype. 
This post is a generalization of what happened, there are exceptions in all areas but I think it gives people who don't know the Czech dogs an idea of what we mean. 
The important thing to me is that the Cech breeders as a whole have put the dog first for working purposes even as it evolved. These are smart breeders who pride themselves for staying true to the breed as it was meant to be...and they have done a pretty good job.JMO


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## BlkCzechGSD

I do personal protection with mine and couldnt be happier with my 8 month old 3/4 czech 1/4 west working line male he is a handful but he is teaching me alot I own his father and mom I work his father as well but this pup is gonna overcome him in many apects there is nothing wrong with going PP with a czech dog some will have more defense than schutzhund could handle reason I stopped schutzhund with my male alot of schutzhund places are more for the west working lines as well...I know my male the 8 month old would not want to play with a schutzhund helper..He is in my profile pic with no sleeve fighting the decoy..


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## scuba_bob

cliffson1 said:


> Someone asked about the "old Czech" dogs and what they were. I have been able to piece together a little history from Czech friends and due diligence. Let me start by saying the Czech breeders of German Shepherd are too me what the breed should be evolving into without money and ribbons having a dominant voice. If I was to buy a showline dog today it would be from the Czech republic. Their black and Red showlines have much stronger temperament as they won't sacrifice temperament for looks to the same degree as others. When T-Floyd won the universal seiger with a female Mendy, (a showline,universal seiger means the dog competed in the nationals in show and work),she was an Hungarian showline dog by breeding.
> The Czech dogs that are an outward expression to the West, has changed a few times in past forty years. Some forty years ago the Czech type dog was a very strong working dog of medium build, somewhat nervy, very high social aggression. This was because of the influence of the Gov in the breed as they were an Eastern bloc nation and the breed was very instrumental in police and military work. These countries at the time didnot have the luxury of countless conformations shows and they also did not have the trade with the west so they couldn't import their dogs out to make money. Around thirty years ago,(give or take), the Czech national breeding powers brought in 5 or 6 DDR dogs to infuse new blood into their lines. These dogs typically had bigger bone, big heads, and were black sable/all black, and bi-color.Some of these dogs Bojar, Iwo, Hassan, Bero, gave a new type look to the Czech dogs. When the curtain came down in late eighties/early nineties this type of Czech dog was being exported as well as the older type. Breeding stations like the z Pohraninci-straze, had these DDR/Czech dogs that were now Czech dogs and had that beautiful head and body that people came to love. These dogs had high defense with moderate prey drive and became extremely successful as police dogs in the America. These breeding stations closed down for good around 2004. (I remember getting a call from Czech republic and was offered a female from the last litter that could use the name z PS, unfortunately I did not need a grown female at that time). For the past 10 years with the free market available and money to be made by exporting working lines, the breed has made subtle adjustments away from the "old Czech" type. Earlier; police types, were main outlet for these working dogs, but the elite sport world shunned them as they were sometimes a tad nervy and social aggression high, and somewhat handler soft. These were not the ingredients for "point" dogs in Sch world. But other breeders wanted to plug into this sport world, and as one Czech breeder told me our genepool is getting too small. Everybody is related to Grim, Tom, Norbo, Titus, and we will soon have backmassing problems. So many Czech breeders started breeding to the West workinglines. This brought stronger nerve and more prey, but also lessened the social aggression that was so desired by the real working world. So here we are today, there are pockets of people who still breed the Old Czech dog with big blocky head, strong bone and good social aggression, but more and more are mixes with west that changes the phenotype as well as genotype.
> This post is a generalization of what happened, there are exceptions in all areas but I think it gives people who don't know the Czech dogs an idea of what we mean.
> The important thing to me is that the Cech breeders as a whole have put the dog first for working purposes even as it evolved. These are smart breeders who pride themselves for staying true to the breed as it was meant to be...and they have done a pretty good job.JMO


Are you a breeder? what's your web site if you are?


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## codmaster

cliffson1 

I wonder if you could explain what you mean by "social aggression"? Does this term refer to being more aggressive to people? Or maybe to other dogs?

Thanks.


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## Jessiewessie99

scuba_bob said:


> Are you a breeder? what's your web site if you are?


He doesn't have one. But I would PM him if you have questions or was interested in his dogs. He has tons of knowledge.


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## cliffson1

Social aggression means a lot of things to different people, and semantics is involved, but I'll give you the definition I mean.
Social aggression is the part of the temperament that has the edge to it. It is often seen in dogs with aloofness and strong nerves, and an alpha personality. Social aggression is the part of the temperament that helps make a patrol or sentry dog. A seriousness in dealing with challenges that confronts them head on. You saw this in German Shepherds in the past quite routinely(not all mind you), but enough to establish the breed as a "German Police" back in the day. The breed was tougher, kinda had a swagger, and was willing to back it up. Many people today don't know this type of dog as a German Shepherd. Partly because the aggression has been bred out and partially because the nerve base is often weak so that aggression is more sharp/shy than sharp confident. 
You constantly hear me preach about nerve strength, well before nerve strength became diluted in more recent times, dogs with good social aggression could be trained to appropriately use it in working, and had better disgression in using it in families. As breeders starting down breeding schemes that weaken the nerve base, then this trait become more difficult to handle by the routine owner, so breeders started breeding toward a more docile temperament that would be less threat with not as strong nerve. There are still some lines that have good social or active aggression with good nerve base, but they are becoming harder to find. I hope this makes some sense, as it is the best I can describe it. It is much easier for me to know it when I see it than describe it.
Also, I don't equate social aggression with aggression towards dogs, there are dogs with good social aggression that will aggress against other dogs, but there are dogs who are social butterflys with people who will aggress toward other dogs. Its not the social aggrssion piece that leads to dog aggression.


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## onyx'girl

What about suspicion? Does social aggression and suspicion go hand in hand or no...in a strong nerved dog?


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## Jessiewessie99

onyx'girl said:


> What about suspicion? Does social aggression and suspicion go hand in hand or no...in a strong nerved dog?


Suspicion?


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## cliffson1

Suspicion can definitely be part of social aggression but it doesn't have to be. I have seen dogs with strong social aggression with high thresholds. The suspicion has to be accompanied with strength of character, as many sharp/shy or sharp/weak nerved dogs are very suspicious, but its the wrong kinda aggression for me.


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## Verivus

Cliff, out of curiosity what lines would you say still have that social aggression/strong nerve combo?


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## cliffson1

You know that is a very good question and harder to answer. The lines are so blurred today by the sport dog type that it is hard to really say a line has it except for some of the older west working and Czech dog. Most of the dogs from Tiekerhook kennels which go back on Falk vh Sindern have excellent SA. The sire of Tom z PS is a dog named Cordon au Sat, who is also known for producing good SA. The Mink lines and Korbelbach lines used to be good sources, some vom haus Antverpa dogs (Nessel) were great for social aggression. But today its more like looking at a pedigree and seeing the combinations and recombinations of lines to get a feel for if the overall pedigree would lean that way. 
One other word of caution, many of the historic lines with this trait also had issues with hips. It really is a balancing beam in that if you go too strong for SA, you may have other issues become stronger. Take Mink for example, fabulous producer of strong dogs in nerve, grips, and hips. But he was notorious for "G" structure and didnot have great structure himself. Herein lies the problem of today, people who breed for structure "first" would never use this dog...lol...but his use was so prevalent that you see many adds saying a dog is Mink free. Why...because for working; hips and temperament are paramount. Contrary to the wives tale, they never dismissed a dog from working in the military because his conformation didn't allow him to work. That's as big a lie as extreme sidegait is needed to herd sheep. So Mink was used a lot in the German Shepherd world, but you needed to balance him with better structured dogs for balance, BUT you don't eliminate him because of his structure when he brought so much in hips and temperament to the table.
In the end, German Shepherd breeding has to be balanced, social aggression is part of the equation and people who have purposely bred this out are changing the breed for the worse.


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## codmaster

Cliffson1,

Thanks for the information. very interesting. I am taking SA to mean a dog who is "suspicious" of strangers and strange or unusual things but who is also not at all fearful and has a measured response while they check things out. And also one who has the standard "aloof but approachable" temperament.

I will ask this question - for a properly SA dog, what reaction would you want to see in this situation? I am walking down the street or in the park and a man is coming toward us walking fast and normal? What, if any, would an ideal reaction be? And the man just keeps walking as he reaches us. And also this one - same park/street only this time it is a group of young men walking toward us talking loudly and waving their arms at each other? Ideal reaction?

I have a pretty good idea how my dog would react but I would be very interested in how the ideal SA driven GSD should react.

Oh, and how about if the single man above stopped right near us and made a comment about the weather?

Thanks!


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## Chris Wild

A SA dog is not necessarily suspicious. Aloof, yes, but suspicion relates to stimulus threshold which is a different matter. A suspicious dog has a low threshold, a higher threshold dog would not be considered suspicious. One can have an SA dog with lower threshold (suspicious) or higher threshold (not suspicious). Two different things, one related to how easily the dog triggers. The other related to the dog's character and how he responds once triggered.


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## scuba_bob

I'm just starting my hunt in finding a gsd working breeder (for schutzhund) and I have a question: why don't many gsd breeder test the heart of their dogs?. Is dcm and heart problems not in the breed?.


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## Xeph

Heart problems have cropped up in some, but IME, it's not nearly as big a problem as the other health issues in this breed. It's uncommon.


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## cliffson1

Chris you gave the EXACT answer I was going to give as I read the question. He's really measuring the thresholds of the dog....like I said I have seen dogs with good social aggression with high thresholds and also with low thresholds. One would fire up on you quick and the other would take a definite threat provocation to fire up, but if they had true social aggression when they fired up they would be serious not just a reactionary snap or growl that is trying to push the threat away, but more like taking out the threat so to speak.


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## cliffson1

Heart problems in GS are not like they are in Dobermans. I mean if you want to test just to test, I suppose you can...but the incidence of this in the breed isn't high enough to test for it unless the problem manifests itself.


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## scuba_bob

Is there a thread that explains the difference between a Czech, DDR and a mix between the 2? Also What is a eastern German shepherd? Is that a DDR? I'm pretty new with GSDand looking for info on the diffence of the breed.


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## Emoore

I'm on my phone so I can't post the link, but if you'll look back through the pages of this section there are lots of threads with grat info on the differences between the lines.


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## scuba_bob

So if I understand this right czech and ddr german shepherds are pretty much the same and are East GSD they are more aggressive, have more energy and drive than West german GSD. West GSD are more of the black and red colour and West GSD dogs are more show dogs and less drive than the East(czech/ddr).


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## Glacier

scuba_bob said:


> So if I understand this right czech and ddr german shepherds are pretty much the same and are East GSD they are more aggressive, have more energy and drive than West german GSD. West GSD are more of the black and red colour and West GSD dogs are more show dogs and less drive than the East(czech/ddr).



German shepherd breed types

DDR/Czech Bloodline thread


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## Catu

scuba_bob said:


> So if I understand this right czech and ddr german shepherds are pretty much the same and are East GSD they are more aggressive, have more energy and drive than West german GSD. West GSD are more of the black and red colour and West GSD dogs are more show dogs and less drive than the East(czech/ddr).


Not exactly, because West GSDs you can find showlines (very much what you describe) and working lines, who are "guilty" of even more prey drive and energy level than eastern verieties.

Personally, I don't like to generalize who has "more or less drive" because drives are many and different. It is like to say a painting has "more color" than other. The statement gives information, but little, without saying if said painting is more red or green or blue and has more ligth or dark.


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## Emoore

I think that the best you can say is that the DDR, Czech, and East German are working line dogs. The West Germans have both working and show line dogs. The West German Show line Dogs are the black and red saddle backs like you described. East Germany and former Czechloslovakia were on one side of the Berlin Wall; West Germany was on the other, so the dogs developed independently of each other during that time. Since the wall fell there has been a lot more mingling of the lines.

Honestly, I can't tell the working lines apart from each other by looking at the dogs; I'm learning to do it from looking at pedigrees. 

You probably shouldn't make generalizations like "West German Working dogs have more drive," or "DDR dog are more serious." There are much bigger differences among individual dogs than there ever were among lines. That said, your showline dogs are going to be less of a "working" dog than your working line dogs (how's that for political correctness?) although there are plenty of showline dogs that can and do work. 

Also, DDR is the abreviation for the actual former East Germany. I'm not going to butcher the language by trying to write out the words. I have heard some folks more knowledgeable than me say that there is a difference in quality and character in the "old line" DDR dogs whose lines have been preserved since the fall of the wall and the "newer" East German dogs, but in general no one will laugh at you if you use the phrases DDR and East German interchangeably.


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## JakodaCD OA

Scuba bob: I don't think you can lump all dog temperament by 'one' line. 

While I admit i have never had straight west german lined dogs, the ones I know of, have been much more reactive/socially aggressive than my ddr/czech dogs. But that's just been MY experience.

The girl I have now, slovak (mom), 3/4 ddr / 1/4 czech(dad) (tho slovak is basically czech),,,I would say has a high threshold, good recovery, not a high prey drive, is socially very aloof , would probably say has some SA, medium suspicion, but definately a 'watcher', high energy, whereas, the ddr males I've had, were social dogs, but aloof, go with the flow types, again, not high prey drive, but alot of 'play drive', 

So while I do agree there are alot of differences within the lines, you can't ball them all into being just "this" or just "that"


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## Anja1Blue

Verivus said:


> It's the challenge I find the most fun.  I like training dogs that won't just hang onto my every word, eager to please. I already have a dog that fills the 'cuddlebug' role so I have no problem having an aloof, more independent dog. I also want a dog that is more then willing to step up to the plate when necessary, a dog I can trust my life with when it comes down to it - especially since I tend to go out during the evenings/late nights (I live in Arizona). I know GSDs are typically deterrant dogs anyway and could fulfill most of what I want, but I want a trained protection dog.


Here is a breeder in Colorado that may be able to help you -www.ehretgsd.com

Daryl Ehret breeds Czech and DDR lines. I know nothing about him other than he posts on another forum I used to belong to, but he seems very knowledgable. If he can't give you the dog or info you are looking for, perhaps he can direct you to someone who can.
_________________________________________________ 
Susan

Anja SchH3 DSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the bridge


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## Anja1Blue

Just found out Daryl moved to Montana.........
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Bullet

This has been a very interesting thread, and prompted me to shoot a few private emails because of the questions the topic generated.

What I would like to point out is that let's say as a puppy buyer you do your do diligence, and get just what you are wanting as far as a Czech pup (or any puppy really) You also have to be able to train with a group that understands what you have.

There are lots of places I, (I'm sure others as well) have been and I look at a dog and wonder why the dog was trained the way it was. After talking to the group, I came away with the impression they didn't know either what they had, or how to work with what they had. It's kind of a kin to trying to put a square peg into a round hole, and in a lot of cases when folks don't understand something they go/train with more pressure.
A lot of the same things that have been discussed in this tread were basically characteristics that were misread and consequently mistrained.

So my advice is when you get you new pups, ask questions and be patient.

Al Govednik


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## Petrarch

*Czech GSD, trained*



Zoeys mom said:


> Having a personal protection dog is a huge responsibility and will take a lot of training for you as well as the dog. I'm no expert on lines by far, but it was my understanding even older Czech lines possessed a lot of prey drive and it was part of their effectiveness? I may be wrong though honestly. If however, you really need a personal protection dog going for lines that have produced other protection and K-9 animals is a good start for sure. I just have to add almost any GSD is going to be highly protective of their family, somewhat suspicious of strangers, and aloof. Their look, reputation, and bark alone are a huge deterrence and if this is your first GSD Czech lines are definitely not a starter GSD. But, if you are willing to have yourself trained as much as the dog and spend some time maybe with the different lines before purchasing this dog your odds of success and happiness will increase


I work with a rescue and came across a Czech GSD female at the pound, turned out that she was trained protection dog by police...they tracked down the previous owner who had some history on her. Of course I adopted her and will be starting a training course, new for me but a refresher for her. I just found my best friend and companion and feel so very, very fortunate. Finding her was like finding a priceless Picasso at a garage sale. You never know when you will find such a treasure. My advice to the gentleman looking for a Czech is to review dogs that are part of GSD rescues.


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