# "Good aggression"?



## Rion (Nov 2, 2012)

I got a GSD because I take care of my elderly mother and she's alone during the day, and we had strangers who'd come through our property. Since we live out in the country... That was odd. So I chose a GSD. I've had my boy Dante since he was 6 weeks, and he's a part of the family now (going on 2 years). We've only had two incidents: first was when my mom's little Schnauzer tried to bully him after Dante hit puberty. Dante tried to fight him, but we stopped it and remedied the situation. The other was at a friend's house. All of us missed the fact that Dante kept trying to remove himself from her brother, and he "cornered" Dante. Dante snapped at him (did not bite), whined and hid himself against me. Turns out the brother had been messing with chemicals and burning a dead tree that day, so we *think* that was it. He's not had an issue with the brother since. 

Anyhow, back to my point. A man showed up unannounced yesterday to check the electric poles. He actually let himself through the gate, despite Dante barking at him. When the man got out to check the poles, Dante's hackles were up and he'd lunge, but didn't snap, at the man. My sister happened to be visiting and made Dante calm down (although his hackles remained raised). My question is, all and all, was that acceptable? Dante's never shown aggression towards anyone we've let through the gate, even if they're a total stranger. Regular visitors, even the propane man, don't need to be "invited" either. So I really think it was an issue of an uninvited stranger. 

I know I said I got him for protection, I just want to make sure it wasn't "too" aggressive.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

That was defensive behavior, not what I would call aggression. If you want him to be protective and have an appropriate level of aggression, you must train, build confidence, and teach him how to think in this state of mind. Without doing this, any defensiveness/aggression is "too much" in my opinion.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

All of the behaviours you describe are fear reactions. None of it is "good aggression". What Dante needs is more socialization and exposure to good people and new places and situations so he can feel confident about what is normal and not over-react.

He also needs more structure and leadership so he can feel secure in his own home, and know that the pack leaders won't let anything bad happen to him. Protective behaviour comes from a place of quiet, unshakable inner confidence, not from a place a insecurity. Hackling, snapping, lunging, are all insecure, fear-based behaviours. 

Dante may be an insecure dog at core, and may never get to the point of being calm and confident and have the inner resources to show real protective behaviour. However, quite often, just have a barking dog on the premises will offer all the protection that most people need. For now, remember that a fearful dog is an unpredictable dog, and he may bite inappropriately, so make sure he has enough training that he is always under control, and manage situations to prevent unwanted bites.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Both of these are correct... I really hope you can 'hear' them. Your dog really needs some confidence building. This is FEAR. It's possible that this is the dog's temperament, genetically, and he will never be what you're wanting. True 'protection' would not involve these kinds of defensive, fearful responses. A sound dog would not take action without *true* provocation. He's seeing a threat where there is none. This dog sounds like a huge liability. My previous male would allow strangers into our yard. He simply 'watched' them. No hackles, no growling, no snapping. He looked to me to see if things were 'ok' when they came in. I've already seen this in Grim. He will take his 'stance' if he thinks something is 'off', but he will not raise his hackles or start barking, snapping, lunging, etc. He's assessing the situation and deciding if there is an actual threat. (Of course, in his puppy brain he's not really ready to decide that, IMO)

Is there a vid that someone has a link to for a dog that's responding appropriately to a threat or non-threat? I think that seeing is the best way to really show someone. I hear this all the time from owners of fearful GSDs. They think that have a great 'protection' dog, when in reality they have a fearful, low-threshold dog that cannot tell a threat from a non-threat.


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## Rion (Nov 2, 2012)

Jag said:


> Both of these are correct... I really hope you can 'hear' them. Your dog really needs some confidence building. This is FEAR. It's possible that this is the dog's temperament, genetically, and he will never be what you're wanting. True 'protection' would not involve these kinds of defensive, fearful responses. A sound dog would not take action without *true* provocation. He's seeing a threat where there is none. This dog sounds like a huge liability. My previous male would allow strangers into our yard. He simply 'watched' them. No hackles, no growling, no snapping. He looked to me to see if things were 'ok' when they came in. I've already seen this in Grim. He will take his 'stance' if he thinks something is 'off', but he will not raise his hackles or start barking, snapping, lunging, etc. He's assessing the situation and deciding if there is an actual threat. (Of course, in his puppy brain he's not really ready to decide that, IMO)
> 
> Is there a vid that someone has a link to for a dog that's responding appropriately to a threat or non-threat? I think that seeing is the best way to really show someone. I hear this all the time from owners of fearful GSDs. They think that have a great 'protection' dog, when in reality they have a fearful, low-threshold dog that Cannot tell a threat from a non-threat.


I heard them perfectly well. He's of good stock, he just needs more socializing. If I hadn't had serious doubts about the behavior I wouldn't have included the two previous incidents and I sure as heck wouldn't have signed up to ask. Truth is, I was told by someone I know IRL that too much socialization would make him unguarded around strangers. Now I know they're full of it.

This is a failure on my part, something I have to step up to correct. I know you didn't intend anything by it, but if you have trouble with people "hearing" you, it may be how you say things. Calling him a "huge liability" kind of ticked me off, even though I knew what you were saying. 

Thanks for all of the input. Now I know what I need to work on.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> That was defensive behavior, not what I would call aggression. If you want him to be protective and have an appropriate level of aggression, you must train, build confidence, and teach him how to think in this state of mind. Without doing this, any defensiveness/aggression is "too much" in my opinion.


I totally agree.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think this dog is terrible...but his reaction is definitely defensive and not aggressive. An aggressive dog would've bit/attacked that repair man, not just barked/lunged. It's not horrible aggression at this point, this was a grown man, coming onto "his" property, its how I would expect many GSDs to react. You at least want to see some sort of show of force.

The only way your dog will react with an attack is with training. You have to teach him a different way to present those feelings. Now the liability comes in because he might bite a child or something that isn't a threat. Something that does have permission to be on your property and for some reason something about that person sets your dogs fear off.

The way I look at the word liability is that its not your dog...its society. People are sue happy, people don't take responsibility for their own actions, and are always looking for that quick buck. To me...no matter what "feeling" or "drive" cause the reaction...if your dog bites someone that isn't supposed to be on your property...its their fault. They're trespassing. But sadly that's not how our law system works...and if your dog bites a kid, not only is he probably getting put down, you're probably in a hefty lawsuit.

So don't take liability personal...its more how society will react to your dog's bite rather than your dog actually biting. Sadly in today's world you'd rather have a dog that never even thinks about biting someone, than a dog that is trained to bite!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Unfortunately if someone comes on your property and your dog bites them, they can sue and will usually win because you have a "vicious" dog.
Any dog that bites for whatever reason is a legal liability,(I am not talking trained police K-9's, I am talking household "pets).
Get some professional help to train you and your dog to be what you want him to be. He will probably never be a "guard" dog because of his fear behaviour, but with training on both your parts, he can be the dog you want him to be.
Good luck


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Unfortunately if someone comes on your property and your dog bites them, they can sue and will usually win because you have a "vicious" dog.
> Any dog that bites for whatever reason is a legal liability,(I am not talking trained police K-9's, I am talking household "pets).
> Get some professional help to train you and your dog to be what you want him to be. He will probably never be a "guard" dog because of his fear behaviour, but with training on both your parts, he can be the dog you want him to be.
> Good luck



So because this dog was very defensive while a strange man went into his yard you think he can't be a good guard dog?

What do you think makes a good guard dog?

defense in its purest form = fear

its what the dog chooses to do with this fear that matters most this dog didn't run away it didnt rip the man up either,,, YET.

I can't believe men just walk into yards there to check power lines thats insane??? Id put locks on my gates thats so creepy that they would do that. They should at lest tell you when they are comming? Do they not think some dogs in the world might just bite? Police these days do.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

also remember hackle don't always mean fear they mean the dog is aroused 

My dog will hackle at rabbits and she will even do it to me if i make her really wound up by teasing her on the other side of the fence with a prey object or something.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

protective can be mistaken alot for fear response. amazing how many people say my gsd is protective when in truth they are fearful and unsure and acting out of just that. definitely a liability if this is the case., a stable protective dog would be confident enough to knw if there was a real threat.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Pets4life, I didn't say a fearful dog won't make a guard dog, I said the dog will need lots of training and the owner will need lots of training to make a guard dog.
A fearful dog might make a good guard dog in some peoples minds. BUT and it is a big BUT, because of their fear, they make "decisions" based on fear, not a sound mind that can tell a real threat from a perceived threat.
If a dog is reacting out of fear, there is nothing to make them realize that an adult delivering a package on their property is just delivering a package, not breaking into the house. If a fearful dog is "allowed" to make their own decisions, they won't decide a child is not a threat also.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, I don't have very much experience when it comes to strangers entering my yard, so although I've had many GSDs, this had only happened to me once. Your dog isn't even 2 years old, and when my incident occured my dog was just over a year. My dog came to work with me every day, and he was very well socialized. But when the person entered my property, my dog reacted that same way yours did. Hackles, barking, rushing up (I won't say lunging, because he wasn't jumping) and I wasn't upset that he did it. I was very upset that someone would enter my property unannounced though! This dog eventually became a Therapy Dog, so he obviously liked people. But to just walk into his yard and expect him to be the friendly dog that he was on visits? That's one of the reasons I prefer a GSD, to discriminate between a social visit and an intruder. Intruder, as in "intrusion", as in, "What the heck are you doing in my yard?" I'd get a lock too.

ETA: By the time this dog matured, he could enjoy sitting on the porch and watch the world go by. He didn't run down the driveway barking at people when they came by, he sat where he was. But he did treat the front area entirely different from 'his own back yard.'


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Rion said:


> I heard them perfectly well. He's of good stock, he just needs more socializing. If I hadn't had serious doubts about the behavior I wouldn't have included the two previous incidents and I sure as heck wouldn't have signed up to ask. Truth is, I was told by someone I know IRL that too much socialization would make him unguarded around strangers. Now I know they're full of it.
> 
> This is a failure on my part, something I have to step up to correct. I know you didn't intend anything by it, but if you have trouble with people "hearing" you, it may be how you say things. Calling him a "huge liability" kind of ticked me off, even though I knew what you were saying.
> 
> Thanks for all of the input. Now I know what I need to work on.


How do you know he's "of good stock"? I don't know if you know this, but even 2 "good" GSDs can be bred together and produce not so good offspring. Do you have the names of the parents? The reason I said that I hope you hear them is because I've run across many, many people who insist that their dog is being "protective" when it's obvious the dog is afraid. It's unfortunate, because the dog could use help in managing those behaviors but won't get it because the owner won't acknowledge that the dog's displaying fear. You can be angry about the "huge liability" comment, that's fine. I had a bigger liability for 7 years than what you're dealing with. I was angry, sad, afraid.. a whole range of emotions that never stopped. That dog came from 2 titled German imports and was a total head case. Her issue wasn't fear, either... just random attacks on various people that had no rhyme or reason. 
You really need to have your dog evaluated. That will give you a clear idea of the issues and how best to work on them. I don't think that just taking your dog out around people is going to solve the problem. The only place worth going is to somebody that has a lot of experience with shepherds and their specific issues. There are WAY too many fear aggressive shepherds out there. It very well may be nothing that you've done or didn't do. It may be a genetic issue that would have happened whether you socialized your dog to death or not. I'll be very interested, though, in knowing who the dam and sire are.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Rion said:


> I heard them perfectly well. He's of good stock, he just needs more socializing. If I hadn't had serious doubts about the behavior I wouldn't have included the two previous incidents and I sure as heck wouldn't have signed up to ask. Truth is, I was told by someone I know IRL that too much socialization would make him unguarded around strangers. Now I know they're full of it.
> 
> This is a failure on my part, something I have to step up to correct. I know you didn't intend anything by it, but if you have trouble with people "hearing" you, it may be how you say things. Calling him a "huge liability" kind of ticked me off, even though I knew what you were saying.
> 
> Thanks for all of the input. Now I know what I need to work on.


My DDR/Czech/Slovak male is more socialized than most people. Still highly guarded. I don't think socialization plays as big a role in strong nerved & confident dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> My DDR/Czech/Slovak male is more socialized than most people. Still highly guarded. I don't think socialization plays as big a role in strong nerved & confident dogs.


I have heard this over and over from experienced GSD people. Honestly, Grim could be more 'socialized' (I've been sick, and I was waiting for his third set of vaccines). Even though I didn't get him until he was 11 weeks, and it was another 3 weeks before I took him out around people, he's been totally fine in all situations and with all strangers, etc. He's actually better than previous shepherds I've had that were heavily socialized since 8 weeks. :shrug:


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