# A few questions about aggression...



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

My 80lbs un-neutered one-year old male GSD is *unusually aggressive/protective*. Today, he had his head outside of the window of my car. Next to my car was a woman who had parked and wanted me to restrain him so she could get in her car. I stood between the cars, and although my dog was restrained as soon as she came closer he lunged at her with half of his body outside the car. In order to prevent him biting her I blocked his mouth with my hand and he bit me on my wrist!

Not only that but while I was driving my car and another dog passed by, he was barking like crazy (hair risen on his tail & back) and attempted to get onto my driver's side area. This time I used my other wrist to block him and he bit me again. So now I have BOTH of my wrists bitten & bleeding with puncture wounds. So I never plan on taking him out again without proper precautions...


1. Would like to know the best muzzle for his mouth. 
- What is the best size for a GSD? 
- What will allow him to breathe will but not bark (his bark is EXTREMELY LOUD!!!!)
- The mesh muzzles don't work for him (he is very strong)

2. Scheduled a neuter for next month, how long will it take before his testosterone-based aggression subsides post-surgery?

Any other advice would also be appreciated.


----------



## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

I would not expect or rely on the nueter to remedy this situation. 

I have no issues with people doing it, but from what I have read many people do not see a major shift in temperament after it's done. 

Since a dog bite can create a huge legal issue for you and your dog I wouldn't put my faith in something so unpredictable. 

Definitely get a trainer experienced in GSD and aggression issues.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

1.Many online sellers of wire muzzles have precise measuring guides.Think about a bark collar.
2.Neutering will have little if any effect on his behavior IMO.It's a training problem.He needs to learn how to control himself before he gets so worked up, frustrated, and redirects on you.I recommend finding an experienced trainer to help.


----------



## Mudypoz (Mar 3, 2016)

He needs to be restrained in the car. If you can't put him in a crate in your car, maybe look into some type of dog seat belt. If there is an accident your dog will become a projectile if he's totally unrestrained. I also wouldn't have the windows rolled down so he can bite people walking by, that would create a legal nightmare for all involved.

I'm no expert, but I don't think a muzzle to stop the barking is the way to go. I would look at why it's happening and start from there. A good trainer is probably your best bet.

Neutering him won't help.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

puffswami said:


> My 80lbs un-neutered one-year old male GSD is *unusually aggressive/protective*. Today, he had his head outside of the window of my car. Next to my car was a woman who had parked and wanted me to restrain him so she could get in her car. I stood between the cars, and although my dog was restrained as soon as she came closer he lunged at her with half of his body outside the car. In order to prevent him biting her I blocked his mouth with my hand and he bit me on my wrist!
> 
> Not only that but while I was driving my car and another dog passed by, he was barking like crazy (hair risen on his tail & back) and attempted to get onto my driver's side area. This time I used my other wrist to block him and he bit me again. So now I have BOTH of my wrists bitten & bleeding with puncture wounds. So I never plan on taking him out again without proper precautions...
> 
> ...


It can take several months to see any benefit from neutering as the testosterone levels need to go down gradually. It's not an overnight change.

I swim against the tide here because in working professionally with many aggressive males, I've seen improvements post neuter. It just takes time.

For muzzling, try the basket style. 

He is not protecting you from other dogs or non threatening humans--he's acting like a jerk. He absolutely must be crated in the car to break up the pattern of reinforcement that goes on. He sees dog, he barks ferociously, dog drives away--he won! He drove that other dog away. Isn't he just hot stuff.

If he's biting you, that's called displacement aggression and you need to work with a pro. Find a trainer who works with sport dogs, i.e. IPO, ring, etc and/or police K-9s. Your local positive only trainer is not going to help you with this. The dog is not showing good clear headedness.

His lunging and trying to attack people who are no threat to you is serious behavior in a pet dog. Your challenge is to confine him securely in a crate and get thee to a trainer who understands this kind of aggression. Again, that means a working dog trainer.

This dog is going to need rock solid obedience and control. And crate, crate, crate.

What is his breeding?


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

zetti said:


> It can take several months to see any benefit from neutering as the testosterone levels need to go down gradually. It's not an overnight change.


Well, I actually do have a giant crate in my car however I can't get the hatch open so I have been putting him in the car with the window open. No matter, he would go crazy in his crate as well.

My last GSD had never even once so much as barked at me. This new dog for the most part is nice but when he gets angry...it is very unsettling (raised gums, barking, growling, etc.). No to mention he is very very very strong. So strong that it feels like you are pushing a wall if he uses his back legs for stability. 

I mean I like him and hope he gets better in the next few months. Although he is full GSD, he is nothing like my deceased GSD who was always unleashed, obedient, never ever aggressive, kind & loving. Its a weird place to be with the new GSD (especially since I look like I've been crucified with puncture wounds on both of wrists which have since made my hands feel arthritic)

my old dog...:frown2:


----------



## Della Luna (Jul 14, 2015)

It sounds like your dog is getting very territorial over the car. Does he do this in other situations, as well?

If the dog can breath, it can bark. I went through a period of muzzling my girl, and had one that clamped her mouth shut. She could still bark at about 80% volume.

I would recommend a basket muzzle so that your dog is still able to pant and drink. And, as other people said, you should definitely look into restraining him in the car so that he cannot practice these unwanted behaviors.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Della Luna said:


> It sounds like your dog is getting very territorial over the car. Does he do this in other situations, as well?


Pretty much only in the car. Well, he does bark at dogs walking by the house but not with the maniacal aggression he shows in the car. Maybe some claustrophobia?

I need a muzzle in which he cannot bark. His barking is very loud and distracting in my car. I was thinking of getting a tight-over-snout leather muzzle with the holes in the side to allow him air. Thoughts?

I should also add that I walk him in a private area as I don't want to risk him around the general public.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yup, crate him or set up a divider in the car that they sell for dogs. A dog in the cargo area of a car can not get to the window, or see out as well. They can bark, but they can't lunge, bite, or get in the way of your driving. 

A muzzle will not prevent muzzle punches, scratches, or your dog leaping out the window.

What did you do when he bit you? 

That he broke the skin is an issue to the point of a puncture wound is a bit concerning. A nip with no broken skin could be just more a reflex- dog gets aroused with no release and he turns and nips whatever is there. But a severe bite is concerning. On the other hand, it sounds like you almost stuck your arm in his barking mouth, so hard to say. 

I have to recommend finding a GSD experienced trainer for these issues. Surgery might tamp him down a bit but it is no solution. In fact my working-dog veterinarian recommended I keep my high-drive boy intact, as neutering can cause some issues with fear or other problems in a dog of a naturally protective/aggressive breed in particular. She explained it better than I can at the moment. 

Aggression isn't a disease, especially in GSD, but it certainly needs to be addressed through training and management.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oops, sorry, I didn't read the OP's responses before posting.

Get a bark collar, not a muzzle.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> Oops, sorry, I didn't read the OP's responses before posting.
> 
> Get a bark collar, not a muzzle.


Thanks however I was hoping to minimize the number of accessories on him (leash collar, bark collar & muzzle for biting??). 

Another problem is that he is very very strong and quick. Mind you, I am mentioning this after already having another strong GSD for his entire lifespan. 

I am afraid with so many methods of restraining him he may start to look like Hannibal Lector. Which I don't want.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You just need a bark collar, not a muzzle. At least in the car.

He can be as quick as he wants, but can't escape a bark collar. 

It's a start. Because I've found that barking in itself can be rewarding and feeds the behaviors you don't like, the lunging, the straining at the leash, the biting. Stop the barking, you often stop the start of that cycle of behavior. 

I like to give the dog an out, though, or a way to win. Are you training him, using a method that gives him an opportunity to succeed? By this I mean teaching him that working with you and not against you gives him a good feeling, greater confidence, and is rewarding in itself. Does this make any sense? You need very strong obedience on this type of dog, but the method used does matter a lot in getting there.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A more detailed explanation of what I was trying to get at with not allowing the barking-

https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/03/16/the-doorbell-problem-how-to-stop-your-dog-from-barking/


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our wl male would blow a gasket in the car when seeing dogs or motorcycles though he never lashed out attempting to bite anyone. His was mostly excitement and he could go right back to calm and happy almost instantly, still he looked and sounded like a maniac. We tried different things, but got the best results working with a trainer using an ecollar.


----------



## randyhernz (Aug 17, 2016)

I would not rely on neutering him to fix your issue. Crating him, while safe would just be masking the behavior issue and not addressing the behavior. Does your dog know basic obedience? Does your dog have a solid down stay? If so, teach him he still needs to hold a down in the car. If he breaks his down, a correction is issued. Obviously this all depends on your dogs level of obedience but you need to start somewhere. Teaching them to hold a down in the car does a couple things, for one it gives then a job to do and it keeps them from pacing in the car, looking out the window, etc, etc. Their job is not to protect you, or bark/lunge at people passing by. Their job should be, hold a down and stay quiet in the car. You break command, you get corrected. 

Of course this only works if you believe in a balanced approach (yes and no) to dog training/obedience.

Also, muzzling training/conditioning your dog is an excellent idea. Not only for this situation but if your dog ever needs to be muzzled in the future, it is accepting of it. Make the muzzle a positive thing. Baskerville muzzles are great, i'm not sure of the correct size though, i'm sure that information is online somewhere if it hasnt been provided already.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks for all the advice.

*I DO HAVE A CRATE IN MY CAR* (I couldn't use it because the lock is stuck to the rear hatch). You are correct that this only masks the problem as he goes crazy in his crate as well. 

I have talked to a trainer in the past and today (one session where he didn't act up). The trainer told me today that he had noticed that my dog had a very strong drive when he had trained him before and mentioned to try to distract him with treats at the ready. However, he also mentioned that his drive may not go down with time or training. He had told me that my dog doesn't have a pet persona but rather a schutzhund type persona (in fact he offered to broker a sale to someone with more experience in handling high-drive dogs again to me today...he offered $600 IF I don't get him fixed). 

I do want to keep the dog as he is pretty calm overall but when gets aggressive it is very very very difficult to contain him. I want to reiterate that I am used to my other high-drive GSD but this one is something altogether different. I'm not scared of him but obviously disconcerted that my own dog would have no problem biting me (twice today). 

Of course I am hoping for the best that time, sexual neutering and training will significantly reduce his protective instincts.


----------



## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

"Your dog is very high drive...try waving a treat around to get his attention."

Erm, what? High drive working dogs aren't going to stop for some heavily processed, preservative-laced crappy little treat.

Also, that worsens the problem, really. He'll realize that if he starts being bad, you'll grab him a treat. Treats & praise are used to help teach and reward good behaviors. Corrections are used for bad behaviors.


Never had to muzzle a dog before, but doubt it would do much to prevent barking. My dog has no issue barking when holding large things in his mouth. I've also seen him do 'lazy barks,' where his mouth doesn't open. The air from his bark only jiggles his doggy lips.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Saito said:


> "Your dog is very high drive...try waving a treat around to get his attention."


Yeah...that's what I kinda thought. That is why I kept mentioning his strength and stuff in my posts above, to try to dissuade simple solutions. But I haven't tried it so it might work rrrr-right? 

Anyways thanks. I'm just going to get some restrictive muzzle and hope for the best in the coming months post-neuter.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

puffswami said:


> Yeah...that's what I kinda thought. That is why I kept mentioning his strength and stuff in my posts above, to try to dissuade simple solutions. But I haven't tried it so it might work rrrr-right?
> 
> Anyways thanks. I'm just going to get some restrictive muzzle and hope for the best in the coming months post-neuter.


Muzzle,neuter,and hope for best?!That's really your plan?:surprise:Best of luck.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

puffswami said:


> Saito said:
> 
> 
> > "Your dog is very high drive...try waving a treat around to get his attention."
> ...


I think you are totally missing the big picture. Hoping to put a band side on it with a muzzle and a neuter. But it will do nothing to fix the problem. 

Your dog is dangerous at this point. He is not contained, he is getting into your seat as you drive to be aggressive and biting you bad out of frustration. 

This is NOT SchH drive. This is self rewarding jerkery that you have allowed to perpetuate to a dangerous level. This dog needs serious training, this dog needs serious guidelines and serious consequences for acting like this. 

He is going to cause a serious car accident. 

And as an aside. Please don't compare him to your last dog. It's not fair to him.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

puffswami said:


> Anyways thanks. I'm just going to get some restrictive muzzle and hope for the best in the coming months post-neuter.


Be careful with a restrictive muzzle, it can be deadly for your dog. 

I'm just curious how long you plan on waiting for the neutering to kick in, and when it doesn't, what will you do then?


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> He is going to cause a serious car accident.
> 
> And as an aside. Please don't compare him to your last dog. It's not fair to him.


He is usually *IN HIS CRATE* so not worried about him affecting my driving. Also the veterinarian's office told me that I should expect his tenacity to decrease about 2 weeks after his September neuter. She specifically mentioned dog2dog aggression and leash-pulling. 

My thought was that she gave me a generalized answer for all dogs and the GSD owners of this forum could give me a more accurate timeframe of when his drive may subside. 

Maybe I'll update this thread after some time post-op.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

He actually is a very gentle dog unless something causes his aggression to go into overdrive & more importantly he gets along with my other dog. A lot of it seems purely protection-related. The woman whom he lunged at today was right next to me. He wouldn't have done anything if she was farther away.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I strongly disagree with your vet on the neutering. See this study, where neutered female dogs were the most likely to display aggressive behaviors including biting, followed by neutered male dogs. Clearly, neutering is not an aggression "fix":

"Biting behaviour was reported for 15.6% of all dogs. The highest frequency of biting was reported for dogs less than 1 year of age. Relative to intact female dogs of at least 1 year of age, the odds ratio for having bitten a member of the household was highest for neutered male dogs(OR: 3.23; 95% CI: 1.83–5.71), followed by neutered female dogs (OR: 2.13; 95% CI: 1.21–3.75). Similar trends were seen for growling and possessive aggression. Our results indicate that excellent response rates can be achieved in behavioural research by utilising general veterinary practices and their clientele, that canine aggression in a household setting is a frequent problem, and that the relationship between neutering and behaviour warrants further investigation.


http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(01)00153-8/abstract

The general vet idea that intact males are more aggressive is just a bias based on a few intrinsically flawed studies.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> I strongly disagree with your vet on the neutering. See this study, where neutered female dogs were the most likely to display aggressive behaviors including biting, followed by neutered male dogs. Clearly, neutering is not an aggression "fix":
> 
> "Biting behaviour was reported for 15.6% of all dogs. The highest frequency of biting was reported for dogs less than 1 year of age. Relative to intact female dogs of at least 1 year of age, the odds ratio for having bitten a member of the household was highest for neutered male dogs(OR: 3.23; 95% CI: 1.83–5.71), followed by neutered female dogs (OR: 2.13; 95% CI: 1.21–3.75). Similar trends were seen for growling and possessive aggression. Our results indicate that excellent response rates can be achieved in behavioural research by utilising general veterinary practices and their clientele, that canine aggression in a household setting is a frequent problem, and that the relationship between neutering and behaviour warrants further investigation.
> 
> ...


Absolutely this and I personally am curious to know why this vet thinks neutering will stop this dog from pulling on a leash?


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

puffswami said:


> He actually is a very gentle dog unless something causes his aggression to go into overdrive & more importantly he gets along with my other dog. A lot of it seems purely protection-related. The woman whom he lunged at today was right next to me. He wouldn't have done anything if she was farther away.


I don't see this as protection related,, this woman was not threatening to you. I would never allow this dog to have access to a window open enough for his head or muzzle to fit through. Other people should not have to deal with that situation.


----------



## randyhernz (Aug 17, 2016)

Wait, so your trainer suggested you get rid of the dog to someone who is more experienced? 

If thats the case, FIND A DIFFERENT TRAINER. I can't believe they said to offer your dog a treat to break his focus lol...

You don't need to rehome the dog, you need to do more research on training.

Train your dog obedience through leadership, boundaries, rules, structure. Your dog won't feel it needs to protect you as much.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

puffswami said:


> Thanks for all the advice.
> 
> *I DO HAVE A CRATE IN MY CAR* (I couldn't use it because the lock is stuck to the rear hatch). You are correct that this only masks the problem as he goes crazy in his crate as well.
> 
> ...


Your dog is most assuredly not showing Schutzhund drive! You may want to inform your *trainer* that there is no Schutzhund anymore. The sport is now known as IPO, utilizing the international rules. I believe that the change happened in 2012, if memory serves.

I fear your *trainer's* real intent may have been to try to incompetently protection train your dog and sell him for a fat profit. I could be wrong. Just a hunch.

Your dog needs to be brought under control with good obedience training and lots of it. A trainer who actually does train IPO dogs or K-9s could be a great help to you. Your typical pet dog-positive-only trainer is going to be out of her depth with a dog like yours.

Confinement is essential--you have to block the unwanted behavior. Obedience training is mandatory. There are no simple fixes to canine aggression. Good obedience can work wonders, though.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You need a trainer who is experienced with aggressive behavior. You are not going to fix this dog by using a message board. You allowed this to escalate, now you have to correct it or give up the dog. Be prepared, if you give him up, he will likely be put down. You are unable to handle him safely now without help. This is not protective behavior. It is aggression.

How does he behave with the vet?

Having had a previous German Shepherd that was very easy and well behaved doesn't prepare you for what you have now. He is only a year old. It will just get worse if allowed to continue. After about 6 months old, neutering does nothing to stop aggressive style behavior.


----------



## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

puffswami said:


> Saito said:
> 
> 
> > "Your dog is very high drive...try waving a treat around to get his attention."
> ...


Strength & size doesn't have anything to do with a dog's 'drive.' I'd say you're likely to find more high drive Schipperkes (a 6-20 lb dog) out there than German Shepards.

I'm terrible at explaining what 'drive' really means. It is one of those immeasurable intangibles. It isn't like a football player's drive via leg strength & pushing against an opposing force. It's more like a person's drive to succeed. It's some invisible impetus from within.

Obedience training & good leadership will help control his actions, and eventually help cause him to form good habits. Dogs pick up on subtle things and will do what they feel will make the leader happy.

But if there is no structure in his life, he won't have a leader in his eyes.
Slowly build up on successful obedience training too. Going to a Trainer for a private session is a good start & he may seem great there. But realize it's private & he has virtually no distractions. No squirrels/rabbits to chase. No swimming spots. Nothing. You're going to have to slowly work up to higher levels of distractions before including people approaching him.

Also, he's a young male...of a working breed. He's going to have a lot of energy. A lot. Make sure he is getting plenty of daily exercise. I would keep it at 2+ hours each day (walking is not exercise for a dog). You'll find training a dog without so much pent up energy to be much easier to do.

A dog with pent up energy is a nightmare...an untrained one of those is just ****. He'll start directing all that untrained energy into unwanted behaviors.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Absolutely this and I personally am curious to know why this vet thinks neutering will stop this dog from pulling on a leash?


It will. For the few days he's sore....

Puffswami, I think you should talk to some different trainers. Also, I think you need to reassess your dogs foundation. My 9 mos old gives the proverbial middle finger to treats when he's ramped up in drive. 

Im curious, what do you do with the dog? Obviously you are taking him out. But I've found off leash time in a new place makes a huge difference. Also, work on ignoring. The key is timing. The second he notices before he can ramp up, that's when you intervene. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

cloudpump said:


> It will. For the few days he's sore....
> 
> Puffswami, I think you should talk to some different trainers. Also, I think you need to reassess your dogs foundation. My 9 mos old gives the proverbial middle finger to treats when he's ramped up in drive.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I was thinking about sending him to a boarding school that deals with aggressive dogs if things don't get better. He isn't bad all the time, it is more a matter of something charging him up that sends him into over the edge. I don't exercise him enough but try to take him out for long walks of a mile or 2. Probably not long enough. 

He is never off-leash. I have only had him for 4 months so I don't want him to run-away or attack someone. However, I'm not the type to walk him down Main St. and greet people anyway. 

But first things first, both the trainer and my vet said to get him fixed and then assess the situation from there. Hopefully, after getting him neutered I will get a better idea of what type of activities I can safely do with him.

EDIT: I should also mention that he has become increasingly protective in the past month or so. He also is scared of my 12yo EB below and has been deferential to him since day one...


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'd question the trainer that says to neuter to curb a behavior.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

puffswami said:


> Thanks for the advice. I was thinking about sending him to a boarding school that deals with aggressive dogs if things don't get better. He isn't bad all the time, it is more a matter of something charging him up that sends him into over the edge. I don't exercise him enough but try to take him out for long walks of a mile or 2. Probably not long enough.
> 
> He is never off-leash. I have only had him for 4 months so I don't want him to run-away or attack someone. However, I'm not the type to walk him down Main St. and greet people anyway.
> 
> ...


Again, his behavior is not 'protective'. If there is no genuine threat, the aggression cannot be written off as 'protection'.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

zetti said:


> Again, his behavior is not 'protective'. If there is no genuine threat, the aggression cannot be written off as 'protection'.


UPDATE & Your Thoughts? 

So I got my 2 year old/100lbs GSD fixed on Sept 22, almost 4 months ago. I was told that it would take 6 months or more for his temperament to subside from being very reactive aggressive. Since then I have seen a couple of good trainers but I spent more time with the better of the two. I had spent approximately $300 with him but he was very experienced with GSDs (also a good-reputation for training). This is what he told me at the time (although he had basic obedience training at the satisfactory level) 

1. my dog is very aggressive until he gets to know someone or other pets. 
2. that my dog will likely never lose his reactivity, despite getting him fixed. 
3. you should not have him off leash and never without muzzle unless he goes through significantly more training (like thousand$ of dollars worth) 

The trainer told me I should have gotten a Golden Retriever instead (like most sane people) until I told him that I had the perfect GSD for 11+ years (no leash, no formal training, no aggression, no accidents in the house...just perfect!). Basically, he told me to spend much more money to more training for my dog however with the caution that nothing was guaranteed and my dog would likely lose his predisposition towards aggression although it may become diluted with age (less lunging but same barking intensity (which is startling high btw). 

So I told him that I would just try to train him on my own (due to price) and he told me that should I not make any improvements in my own training, I should 

1) not give the dog to any other person unless I get a legal-waiver from liability 
2) be able to live with the emotional consequences if I did give him away and he attacked someone or a child along with the parting advice of ....I should euthanize him all things considered. 

Now I don't know if it was a scare tactic to get more money from me but everything he said about my dog was very accurate behaviour-wise. He is OK for a while but can get triggered very quickly ( like a hair trigger). Today I was walking him and although he didn't lunge because I keep him very short-leashed (yes I've tried pinch/e-collars) he will lunge regardless of punishment, he really scared a couple of people and made me rethink what the trainer above had told me. 

The problem with having aggressive dog is that it creates so much anxiety it is very difficult to bond; with him when you know he could attack the owner or someone else out of the blue. I HOPE he gets better within the next year but I don't want it to be too late and a child or someone is injured. Especially like the trainer said no guarantee; anything will prevent it. 

I'm kinda venting but also would like some feedback about what I should do about my dog. Thanks.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Also probably going to try a boarding program as a last result. Since my dog is decent with obedience commands alone maybe they can teach him to obey with distractions such as people and other dogs. Along with reducing his aggression which may be anxiety from other people.


----------



## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

My opinion may not be the most popular but there are far too many great dogs out there needing homes to deal with an unstable man biter. You are constantly nervous, and he must also be under some kind of perpetual anxiety to behave the way he does. It is clear you have taken and tried many different avenues into rectifying his dangerous behavior, with little improvement. Legally and morally you are taking a gamble with him seriously hurting somebody, even you are not immune to his aggression. It is up to you at what point you draw the line, and honestly I commend you for all of your efforts as many would not have even given it a chance. We (at least I do) have dogs for companionship, love and a life long relationship. Something that is wonderful and fun, challenging at times but dogs should be an enhancement to your life... not a detriment. 

Good luck to you in whichever path you choose, I certainly do not envy your situation. How is he with your bulldog? Such an adorable old gentleman, he is also part of the equation you should consider.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

atomic said:


> My opinion may not be the most popular but there are far too many great dogs out there needing homes to deal with an unstable man biter. You are constantly nervous, and he must also be under some kind of perpetual anxiety to behave the way he does. It is clear you have taken and tried many different avenues into rectifying his dangerous behavior, with little improvement. Legally and morally you are taking a gamble with him seriously hurting somebody, even you are not immune to his aggression. It is up to you at what point you draw the line, and honestly I commend you for all of your efforts as many would not have even given it a chance. We (at least I do) have dogs for companionship, love and a life long relationship. Something that is wonderful and fun, challenging at times but dogs should be an enhancement to your life... not a detriment.
> 
> Good luck to you in whichever path you choose, I certainly do not envy your situation. How is he with your bulldog? Such an adorable old gentleman, he is also part of the equation you should consider.


Back when I was training pet dogs, I came to the same conclusion.

There are so many wonderful GSDs sitting in rescues and shelters, does it really make sense to bankrupt yourself on a dog who may be just hopeless?

I haven't read through the entire thread, so I don't know the dog's history. But what I did get is that we have a very aggressive dog who lunges and tries to attack, unprovoked. And we have an owner who has consulted experienced trainers and not given a good prognosis.

All of which leads to enormous understandable anxiety for the OP.

Personally, I believe that crazy aggressive dogs are tortured souls, getting little joy out of life. Sometimes the kindest thing is to let them go. I've had to do it. It's never easy to put down a healthy dog for behavioral reasons. But, on rare occasions, it's the right thing to do.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I'd question the trainer that says to neuter to curb a behavior.


I'd not question him ... I'd say "thank You For Your Time your ... "FIRED!!


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK .... "School is in session." 

First to restate the obvious ..."yes there are millions of dogs out there that don't have these "issues" ... so why bother?? I can't speak for others but those dogs are not "my dog??" Sorry ... I don't ascribe to the *"No you can't, No you shouldn't, don't even try philosophie???" 
* And of course not every dog can be saved, but you know some can. I have one "who is now being described as an "Easy Dog!" >

Yeah, most likely you should have got a "Golden" but you know you did not! That's not a crime ... people do stuff. But a crime would be putting other pets and people at risk becasue of your dogs behaviour! You're trying your best not to do that ... and your problems are being compounded by bad advise! 

I'm not a "Dog Trainer" but if I was and a "Client" said to me "well my other dog was like ..." The first thing I would say to them ... "is yeah well get over it, "this is not your other dog!" I wound up going to the ER for stitches before I learned that lesson! (Pack Fight Thing.) Once I had a uh ... more clear understand of that point... we got it done! So step one ..."forget" the my other dog thing and "deal with the dog in front of you!" Paws on the ground as it were. One of those "Trainers" ... I feel "should have told you that" but ... whatever. Guess that's why I am not a "Dog Trainer" ... poor people skills. 

The "good news" is that "despite" the problems your having you are still willing to deal! And your getting bad advise and half answers?? If you did send this dog to a "Competent" board and train ... yep most likely, they could fix him. 

ANd a part of the process ... that you have already started ... is they would "Crate Train" your dog and you have "apparently" already accomplished (part of that process.) Except "you" have a "problem" the dog won't settle in the "Crate???" Most likely they would use an "E-Collar" and a "high level correction???" I don't know but for them time is money and they don't have a lot of time to screw around.

You will go in the "Crate" and be "quiet" dog ... or "there will be consequences!" Right now there are no "consequences" for the dog "acting a fool" in the crate" and he carries that behaviour over the car! "Someone" should have told you that ... but they didn't!

No matter ...now you know, and I'm not really big on a lot of tools and stuff. If you have a "Plastic Crate??" You can tie a rope long enough for you to go out of the immediate area! If/when you "hear" the dog starting to act like a "tool??" Yank the crap on the rope and say "NO!!" Repeat as necessary! A "voice of God" correction ...where did that ... come from ... "I best settle down in here!" I have no idea how long that takes ... so if you give it shot ... "let me know." But getting that done first ... will let your dog know ..."that things have changed!" 

Moving on ... this is a full on "Bubble Dog Protocol" a term thrown at some of us a few years back .. I suppose it was meant as an insult but I liked and kept it. 

But defined (by me) ... "it means a dog that has to be muzzled to be safe in public." How long that takes ... I cans say as I paid no attention to "time" when I was doing it?? But I'd "walk my dog" and find "people for him to ignore." For awhile ... he went behind me and I would answer questions about what, why and how?? Eventually I noticed he seemed/looked to be "pretty bored" with the whole process ... "kinda like sigh ... this old bit again??" 

Having people "pet him" was not my goal ..having him be "civil" was! And once I better understood "what he looked like" when not under stress ... "I dropped the use of the muzzle!" 

And as was pointed out to me "finally" a part of that "process" that I paid no attention to (because it was not a problem I have) is that you "must" be able to walk your dog on a "loose leash" first! And that is best done in a distraction free environment! "show then what you want and how you expect them to behave!" You can't "fairly correct a dog" for not doing something they don't understand???

And the core principle of the "Bubble Dog Protocol" is *"don't make your dog's problems ... someone else's problem!"* It's a "Zero Bite" policy ... not dogs or people! So your first post and the car thing ...yeah that was a "fail" on your part! You already knew your dog ... has "issues" the windows should not have been down far enough for him to get his head and become threat to others ... so yeah ..."don't do that again. 

Extreme vigilance is required for a time. The goal is that "extreme measures" are not for a lifetime?? If you do your part .. your dog will get it! Cause you know ... sometimes "crap" happens??? And the best "preparation" for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!! 

So ... finally ... all of that said ... the rest is here. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

Oh and just so you know ... your dog is apparently already "Crate Trained??" So ...your one up on me! Had I used a "Crate" out the gate with my first "OS Wl GSD" most likely ... those "five pack fights" would not have happened ... I'd not have gotten the first stitches in my life, and I'd not have a permanently bent little finger from try to pry "Rocky's" jaws from the back of Gunthers neck! That felt like having my fingers trapped in a "Red Hot Vise!" 

And "Rocky" would never have sent a cold shiver up my spine when he greeted from (Place ...as it happened) company with a "Cold Hard Stare and a Low Growl???? Aww well "Good Times, Good Times. Yes ... most definitely ..."Not like my other dogs???"

So as you can see dealing with a dog that is uh not the norm ... is something to be taken very seriously! And not "everyone" can do it! And some say ..."why bother??" That's not my call to make?? But for those who chose to ... I point out what I did and, that include both what I got right and what I got wrong. Your call on as to how to proceed ... "Welcome Aboard" and sorry thus far it's been a bumpy road.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> It will. For the few days he's sore....
> 
> Puffswami, I think you should talk to some different trainers. Also, I think you need to reassess your dogs foundation. My 9 mos old gives the proverbial middle finger to treats when he's ramped up in drive.


LOL ... outstanding!!! I am so saving "this!" :laugh2:


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

puffswami said:


> The problem with having aggressive dog is that it creates so much anxiety it is very difficult to bond; with him when you know he could attack the owner or someone else out of the blue. I HOPE he gets better within the next year but I don't want it to be too late and a child or someone is injured. Especially like the trainer said no guarantee; anything will prevent it.
> 
> I'm kinda venting but also would like some feedback about what I should do about my dog. Thanks.


LOL ... feel free to "vent away!" 

And most likely as to your question as regards *"creates so much anxiety it is very difficult to bond; with him when you know he could attack the owner or someone else out of the blue." * You were not really expecting an answer??? 

But you know as they say "been there done that" And it worked out fine! At the time I had no idea what exactly I was doing??? But you know ... I did it! And it was really my search for understanding that brought me here! My dogs issued were already solved when I got here ... no help needed. But you know why and how?? A search for understanding "why" what I did worked, is why I came here.

And ... specifically to answer your question my solution was *"I don't care!" *Clearly (now) it was obvious that I did not have a "Puppies and Kittens" for everybody WL GSD??? He was not an "anybody can handle kind of dog!"

It actually took a lot for him to "pound that lesson" into me, but he did!!! But you know finally after my trip to the "ER" ... it was Aye, Aye Sir .... message received! :surprise: 

I like you, was not "expecting to become a "Dog Trainer???" I just simply wanted to help out a dog in need (foster parent) add him to my pack and get on with life issue free ... but "clearly" that was not happening?? 

Fine then now I understood what I was dealing with and as I am want to say ... .:









You just don't know ... but that is you!! Despite the problems you have ... your post was not "My Dog Is a PIA" and he needs to ... be gone ... sorry just venting. 

Nope that is not what you said ... you are kinda sorta lost and confused and off balance ?? But still you've not said "this dog is done here!"

Good enough for me! You I feel can do this you just need to know .how .. and first hand experiance ... don't worry about the bond thing! With some dogs ... that has to be "earned!" Hard Core dogs ... don't just give it (the bond thing) because you know, you happen to own me ... they don't care! Some dogs are kinda like "Show me" you are worth me giving a crap about??? 

Your dog needs "leadership" and it does not matter that he is a "100" lber?? You don't want to battle with your dog ... that will not end well! The secret" is you provide "Rules/Structure and Leadership!" You provide that and the rest will fall into place!

And as to the he can't be "off leash" because you've only had him 4 months?? Well yeah ... the dog does not care about what you say! You just got him so he ought to be on a leash if he is not in a confined area! Nothing special there. 

Work on "Place" do "Sit on the dog" work on being quite in the "Crate!" Work on the loose leash walking in distraction free areas! Quit giving him the opportunity to bite people or attack dogs.

Concentrate on those for say the next ... three weeks and then ... see where you are at??


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Update:

One of the changes that I HAVE MADE is instead of thinking about my dog as a pet dog, I think of him more as a guard dog. This small change makes use many more precautions than I've ever done before. Such as ...muzzle? check. double collared? check. 

Its unfortunate and I'm still not relaxed when I walk him but at least it doesn't make me put undue expectations on him. And you really can't relax with a really strong 100lbs dog so although I realize that my stress may be causing him stress but whatcha gonna dooo??


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

puffswami said:


> Update:
> 
> One of the changes that I HAVE MADE is instead of thinking about my dog as a pet dog, I think of him more as a guard dog. This small change makes use many more precautions than I've ever done before. Such as ...muzzle? check. double collared? check.
> 
> Its unfortunate and I'm still not relaxed when I walk him but at least it doesn't make me put undue expectations on him. And you really can't relax with a really strong 100lbs dog so although I realize that my stress may be causing him stress but whatcha gonna dooo??


Well you just started, working on this so of course your going to feel, stressed out for awhile???

But you've already taken the first step in addressing your dog's issues. The responsibility to ensure your dog bites no one! Use a muzzle, it helps the dog to calm down and it helps you ... (although it may not seem like it now) ... to be a bit more relaxed. 

And don't focus on the weights "100" lbs thing and that's why I can't walk him??? That's not how it works. It does not take "strength" to properly walk a dog, it takes "Training" and that's what you need to work on first ... without distractions dogs people etc. 

I'm pretty sure no one would chose to walk this guy if he were not properly leash trained first?? :









Baby steps you can train a dog to walk properly using nothing more that a "Regular Collar and a Flat Leash. But most people find it easier to use a "Prong Collar' and of course my personal choice is a "SLL." But "apparently" using the last one is more "Art than Science??

The first clip in the "New Dog's a Challenge" thread is how I learned to use a "SLL." You have to be able to walk your dog properly before you can work on the other stuff in public. You can't correct him "fairly" to fail to walk properly on a loose leash ... if he does not understand how to do so???

Start work on Place, and Sit on the Dog "now" and strictly enforce a "No Pet" policy and don't put him in situations where he can make "Poor Choices." Give it some time, if the walk thing still has you stumped after making a "concerted effort." Then ... consider "Hiring a Trainer" to teach you how to walk your dog properly. But understand that most trainers that can help you will suggest a "Prong Collar."


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

puffswami said:


> UPDATE & Your Thoughts?
> 
> So I got my 2 year old/100lbs GSD fixed on Sept 22, almost 4 months ago. I was told that it would take 6 months or more for his temperament to subside from being very reactive aggressive. Since then I have seen a couple of good trainers but I spent more time with the better of the two. I had spent approximately $300 with him but he was very experienced with GSDs (also a good-reputation for training). This is what he told me at the time (although he had basic obedience training at the satisfactory level)
> 
> ...



I'd think carefully about what the professional trainer, who saw the dog and worked with the dog, has to say. Only someone who has seen and worked with the dog can give your real advice on what you have at the end of your leash. If you chose to keep and work with this dog, I would seriously consider having insurance.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Update 2.0:

Well, I finally figured it out. FINALLY!!!! I just couldn't figure out why my GSD was so reactive. I mean people say "my dog is reactive too!" and I immediately have been "ummmm....OK." So I've been in group dog training classes and of course my dog acted nothing like the other dogs of various breeds. My dog was stressed and ready to attack. Not so much barking and such but a hair-trigger for sure. My dog seemed to get a little better but not by much.

So I took him to a board and train outfit that specializes in GSD type dogs. The owners first question was "Where did you get that dog?, do you have his papers?" ....anyways he went on to explain that my dog was almost definitely a working-line GSD. In fact he brought out a couple of adult GSDs that were being trained and he pointed out all the physical differences between my dog and the other two. They all got along after some time, but my dog was wearing a muzzle so he wouldn't have been able to hurt them.

The physical differences were very very apparent. These dogs looked like family-friendly show Shepherds but my dog was seemingly a half-length longer, skinnier, his facial features more pronounced (less friendly) than the other two pet-like GSDs. The trainer told me that the REAL differences were within. A working-line GSD has a hormonal profile that is very prone to being reactive. That was why when my dog started barking in the past it always went from 0 to 60...actually 100. That is also why treat training had almost no effect on my dog. I had freshly cooked meat by the handful in front of his face and he would simply look around it if he had been above threshold. 

It also makes sense why a couple of trainers turned me down. They saw he wasn't responsive as they would have liked. So it is his genetics. I was trying to train him like a normal dog at the park and his physiology wasn't conducive to that. I don't know what i'm gonna do about training him but at least now I know my instincts were right that he is more of a guard dog than a pet dog hence all his problems in public.


----------



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Update 2.0 was from a month ago ....


----------

