# Feeling In Way Over My Head - Fear Reactive Puppy



## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

Hi Everyone...Sorry this is going to be long but I really need some guidance because I'm feeling pretty hopeless and discouraged about my fearful puppy. 

I have a 6 mo old male gsd who I got at 8 weeks old from a friend (accidental backyard breeders). Both parents have amazing temperament (I've met them both), no health issues, and I see 3 other puppies from the litter regularly (they are all well adjusted, not fearful, very confident). 

However, we are dealing with some pretty serious fear with our puppy... when we got him at 8 weeks, he was pretty shy around strangers, didn't really like people approaching him. I did a ton of socialization with him from 8 weeks on - brought him to BBQs and carried him through shopping malls, grocery stores, and I bring him to work with me every day, so he's been exposed to all kinds of delivery people plus the people in my (very small) office. He's great with other dogs and he's OK with people in very very busy areas, like shopping malls or busy parks. We also enrolled him in a puppy socialization class when he was about 9/10 weeks old. 

First, I'll say that we became concerned with his fear-reactive behavior at around 4 months old. From 2-4 months, I thought maybe it was a fear period or something....this is my first dog that I have trained personally, so I'm new to this. We found and have been working with a personal trainer (3 sessions so far) who trains GSDs and Malinois for police and guard dogs. We've begun using an e-collar (so far on a very low setting for attention only, not for punishment) which works great inside, not so much outside. He's amazingly well trained inside our house, but the second a guest comes over, or we take him outside, it's like he's suddenly lost ALL of his training. When he was younger he was much better outside, listened to commands, but within the last month or so, he's stepped so far backwards and is so distracted that he cannot listen to me. I'm sure that MY anxiety about how he will react is also reflecting in his behavior, but I have no idea how to stay calm when I'm worried this 65 pound dog might lunge so hard he gets away from me. 

First - he barks at EVERYONE who enters our house - even my mom who he's met a hundred times. And he doesn't just bark once or twice, he barks for 5-10 minutes straight, hackles up the whole time, backing away and then getting closer and barking at the person. Once he stops and calms down, he is great and totally able to relax and listen to commands. We have every guest follow the don't look, don't speak to him rule - they just come in, let him come to them. He also barks at every noise he hears outside the house. If we're in the backyard, he'll bark when he hears a neighbor through the fence, or run to the front of the house and bark aggressively at pedestrians walking by.

On walks, he is OK with some people who walk by us, and then insanely reactive toward others (I have been paying attention and have not noticed any pattern to who he is reacting to). For example, I was walking him on a path near my work recently and he noticed but did not react to a black man running past us, or two women walking. Then he lunged and aggressively barked at a hispanic man running past us, an old white man walking, and a black woman walking. It is definitely not an ethnicity or gender fear. He is also fearful of his trainer (has been since the minute we brought him to training).

Our trainer has us working on heeling during walks (I had previously been using a front-pulling harness, but he said to stop using that and to lure into a heel with treats). This is going OK but he stops as soon as he sees something that stimulates him and I can't get him back into a heel until that stimulus is gone. I also have tried a focus command (I use "eyes") which is again is GREAT at with no distraction, but can't do with any distraction nearby.

We are also working on a place command (I've been working on this with him since he was about 3 months old). Same thing with this command - he's 100% with this command (goes to his "place", lays down, doesn't get up until I release him) UNTIL someone knocks on the door or comes in the house. Then its like all training goes out the window. 

Other than this issue, he is so amazing. He learns everything else so quickly, that I don't understand what went wrong. I know it must be something I am doing wrong, but I have no idea what that is. It's like he can't trust that I have everything under control. 

I should also mention that he's dealt with a few health issues - he had a major stomach issue at like 3 months old, constant diarrhea and soft stool. I switched him over to raw which cured that issue, but then he developed some kind of allergy (biting off fur on his front legs, constantly itching, ear infections) and now we have him on a limited ingredient trial diet to rule out food allergies, along with Benadryl every day. 

Also - this dog is either 0 or 100. He's either sleeping or totally insane. There is no in between with this guy, unless we're doing training indoors. 

I'd love to hear if anyone dealt with a similar situation with their dog, and how they dealt with it. Thanks!


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

Ok. so the breed is new to you? They are watch dogs, u know. 

I hardly think the work u have done with the sosialisation is not working on with this house rule of youres. 

Is he exited when guests arrive? If so, i would just train the leave-command, and focus on the command of staying his place. IF he ust likes guests, u could try thius for your barking and staying his place proplem: Take phone in youre hand, speaks on the phone with your friend and leave the line open: Your friend goes at your door, if the dog goes nuts, she/he goes away. if the dog stays at his place, he can come in. get it? fool your dog to get what he wants.

if he doesnt like guests, and I guestion, shackles up doesnt necesserely mean just one thing- hes stil so young. 
Does he come to guests? Goes around them, does he wawe tail? Seeking attension? IF he just hates guests, I doubt he doesnt do that at all.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Were his parents related?


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Were his parents related?


Wolf just curious..
Always have been..does a situation of inbreeding usually always end up bad. We had a pug once who was inbred and she was nutty over lots of t hi ngs. Good thing she was a small dog. She would go bizerk..Scary.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Put a correction collar and leash on him when people come over. If he acts like an idiot correct him until he realizes that isn't how he acts. But then you have to also reward the good or proper behavior. Same when out on walks. I would start with redirecting before he goes nuts. But if he does go off then correct, say no and keep walking. On the occasions when he ignores people celebrate. Let him know that is good. Stop being so nervous about it. He picks up on that. Which just makes his anxiety worse. If he feels you are scared why wouldn't he feel he has to go nuts to try and scare someone away. 
And my final advice is take this dog tracking. Tracking is a solo exercise. But it will help to build his confidence. And help you two to bond and trust each other.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You don't want to correct fear. fear is an emotion, not a behavior. It will only confirm that strangers are scary and make him hurt.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

TOO MUCH "I did a ton of socialization with him from 8 weeks on - brought him to BBQs and carried him through shopping malls, grocery stores, and I bring him to work with me every day, so he's been exposed to all kinds of delivery people plus the people in my (very small) office. He's great with other dogs and he's OK with people in very very busy areas, like shopping malls or busy parks. We also enrolled him in a puppy socialization class when he was about 9/10 weeks old. "

now you have to go backwards . 

TOO MUCH " We found and have been working with a personal trainer (3 sessions so far) who trains GSDs and Malinois for police and guard dogs. We've begun using an e-collar "

I would stop . Too much of an agenda , schedule . Dog is wound tight -- needs to go backwards.

TOO MUCH -- over stimulated, over whelmed , too aroused and allowed to enter this zone and then stay in it too long.
Dog needs to go backwards . Take the pressure away. 


go back to how the socialization should have happened , square one.

home - trust - rest -- controlled - food (" along with Benadryl every day" is NOT a solution)

before guest come over dog is put into safe-den (crate) 
you can't ask your guests to act in unnatural ways , do this , don't do this , while the dog is allowed
to play out his quirks -- because you can't fool the dog -- and the first time a guest is spontaneous bang -
there goes the dogs idea of having been okay after all - not - and the next time he'll be more apprehensive

dog can view safely from a distance or just hear normal spontaneous human interaction without any involvement
on his part - 

that's a start 
:


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> You don't want to correct fear. fear is an emotion, not a behavior. It will only confirm that strangers are scary and make him hurt.


After a while I got sick of Apollo acting like a jackass every time someone came over simply because he was scared. so I leashed him and started correcting. After a couple times he now just sits beside me and watches.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

With my previous gsd we had to do that also. Just to stay her place,didnt work on very dominant and hard headed female. We trained to be calm. When she calmed down-then freely. But that was a dog which u could never trust with guests. :|

With vade things goes easier cause he shows of naturally, goes, sniffs, wawes the tail, and then goes eating his bone or playing with his toys. We didnt do much of sosialication. Time shows result, but lucky this guy has nerves of steel and the famous on-off button. ?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Are his parents Black and Tan?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> Is he Black and Tan with the Tan being more red or gold?


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Your puppy is hitting the wonderful and fun (Sarcasm) stage of adolescence or simply is in the teenage stage. They forget everything they knew including their name. Its exasperating and natural. Some, just like kids, hit it harder than others. For mine I just step back and keep it simple, enforcing commands patiently and reminding myself it is a stage and will pass. Do not push to make him meet people or do things he is not confident about. Socialization is a funny thing, taking him with you a lot, exposing him to different surfaces, sounds, smells are all good things. Forcing a puppy to meet and greet people, especially if it is not a confident pup to start with can do damage you won't see until they are older. I would slow it down, put him up when people come over and allow him to explore things on his level of confidence for a while. 

He's also hitting the second fear stage, yep, along with teenage stage. Praise positive reactions and do not reinforce negative reactions. For example, do not tell him he is all right or pet him to calm him when he acts afraid of something, that will reinforce that there is something to be afraid of. Don't force him to face the fears, better to back off to where he is comfortable and let him observe from there.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sounds like you have a dog that is genetically fearful. See my post in this thread, here about my fearful dog: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/705978-dog-pet-peeves-5.html

I don't have any easy answers for you, and there are no easy fixes. I'd train with lots of praise, and very few corrections. Flooding the dog with new experiences is only going to heighten the fear and anxiety. 

This is the sort of dog that can become a fear biter, especially if someone approaches it when it can't move away. I would crate the dog when visitors come over, as Carmen suggested.

Edit: Deb's advice above is good. 

[sarcasm]Cliffson, with a temperament like this, he's probably a piebald panda shepherd. [/sarcasm]:rolleyes2:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> Sounds like you have a dog that is genetically fearful. See my post in this thread, here about my fearful dog: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/705978-dog-pet-peeves-5.html
> 
> I don't have any easy answers for you, and there are no easy fixes. I'd train with lots of praise, and very few corrections. Flooding the dog with new experiences is only going to heighten the fear and anxiety.
> 
> ...


Sun silver, just curious as to his color...no more, no less.
Actually, I have never seen a Piebald GS, but I have seen this type behavior countless times, so I'm just curious for database storage in my brain.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

JenniferAaron said:


> Wolf just curious..
> Always have been..does a situation of inbreeding usually always end up bad. We had a pug once who was inbred and she was nutty over lots of t hi ngs. Good thing she was a small dog. She would go bizerk..Scary.


OP: did you find out if the parents are related? How old was the female when she gave birth to your pup?Maybe they got a brother and sister because "that is so cute". Then no separating when the female goes into heat. This scenario sounds very familiar and quite possible. I think it may be genetic since not all the pups have this fear. Genetic issues don't have to show up in all pups in a litter.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

A lady that I see at the vet a lot has a panda Shepherd. Very social dog. 
I have a dog that is scared of new stuff/people. Sure he was in a crate for the majority of the time between 8 and 14 weeks. And I found out later that the original owner did get pretty rough with him for using the bathroom in the house.. I have worked with him a lot to get him to a point where he functions while walking in stores or in public. He just ignores people. But if they approach him he doesn't like it. He is a dark Sable. 
@cliffson1 have you noticed a correlation between colors and nerves or is it more of a WL / SL thing, or neither.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, your trainer should be able to easily explain to you why your dog can perform with few distractions but falls apart in more exciting scenarios. It is only because you haven't worked up to that point. Ask your trainer to outline the steps in between. It's a totally normal thing and it only means you haven't finished your work yet.

I would not allow the dog to be loose and barking and advancing and retreating with guests. That sounds like an accident waiting happen. I hope you are not using an e collar to try and get control of the dog under these circumstances. I really question that an e collar is the right thing for this dog at all.

Time out in a crate might useful, ideally out of sight or in another room where e dog is away from guests. If you wait until the dog settles, then bring him out on a leash and just calmly sit down with him at your side he can get accustomed to the new people in the house.

Working on getting your dog to stop barking on cue separately from guests coming over is a good thing too.

I expect my shepherds to take my cue...they always bark when someone comes to the door, even when they first walk in. But when I said that's enough, go say hi, they are expected to be quiet and be social if they want. This usually amounts to a sniff with a tail wag and thenot they are done. Your dog will struggle with that more but the idea still needs to be there --


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree "I would not allow the dog to be loose and barking and advancing and retreating with guests. That sounds like an accident waiting happen"


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

With dogs like this, you may need to simply accept that he will always need to be managed to some degree. This doesn't just mean physical restraint or separation but also training that is bombproof that you can use to control the dog's actions. 

That is what management is- control over the dog's actions through restraint or voice commands. 

Place is management, but in my opinion NOT appropriate for some dogs. Even the "experts" show "place" failures. The last thing you want is a guest to get hurt by your dog. 

At some point, we need to realize what a dog can genetically handle, and what he can't. It's OK to admit your dog will never like strangers in the home and manage the dog as necessary. 

There are a few commands you need to proof so your dog can be out in the world and enjoy life as a dog. Proofing means he will follow these commands anywhere, anytime, and immediately. 

Taught correctly, he'll be quite reliable very quickly, and you'll just need to maintain the training periodically. The commands are "come" (here), "heel" (with me), and down (platz if you want). Down at a distance is invaluable for your dog's safety. And easy to teach, it comes fairly natural to the dog as part of the natural stalking sequence. I use e-collars to proof commands once the dog knows them. I train commands with mostly markers, some rewards, some pressure. 

It is YOUR job to train your dog. I used to think the right trainer could do the work for me and it would just be magical. Nope. You are this dog's owner, you are the person this dog trusts and lives with day to day. Put in the time, do your research, get a good understanding of how dogs learn and think, learn to read your dog. If you want results, you need to work for them. It doesn't take a ton of training time, once you understand how to work with the dog, but it does take time to understand how to do it right. 

I'd recommend reading "Excel-erated Learning" for a good understanding of basic training methodology. Also, watch dog training channels Stonnie Dennis, Jamie Penrith (take the lead dog trainin), and Ivan Balabanov. 

There is no simple answer to this problem, it requires you to step up and really do the work. Been there, done that... love my dog the more for it. But there is no SECRET to dog training. Just hard work, experience, and always some trial and error.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Cliffson, I don't believe that colour has anything to do with temperament. That's the reason for my response. I thought you were trying to be funny. (Sorry!) The one exception I'm willing to make is the reverse mask. There seems to be some (a weak) correlation between the mask and a dog with the sort of temperament the GSD was originally meant to have. It all made sense when I saw an old video of DDR dogs being trained for the military, and put through all sorts of different situations (obstacle courses, being attacked from hiding while biking alongside their handler, etc. In other words, real life situations as opposed to the sort of very structured situation a dog experiences on the schutzhund field.) A VERY high percentage of these dogs had reverse masks. Of course, as the DDR dogs fade further back into history, any correlation is going to disappear.

Ancestry/heredity is the only thing that matters when it comes to temperament, IMO. For example, an American show line dog is more likely to have weak nerves than a German working line dog, because these dogs are rarely asked to do real work. Sadly, the dogs you see in the show ring are almost never the ones taking part in obedience classes or other perfomance events.


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Were his parents related?


Hi sorry just trying to figure out how to respond on this thread!

No, parents were not related




wolfy dog said:


> OP: did you find out if the parents are related? How old was the female when she gave birth to your pup?Maybe they got a brother and sister because "that is so cute". Then no separating when the female goes into heat. This scenario sounds very familiar and quite possible. I think it may be genetic since not all the pups have this fear. Genetic issues don't have to show up in all pups in a litter.


The female was about 3 1/2 when she gave birth to the pups. Not related to the male


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

pashana said:


> if he doesnt like guests, and I guestion, shackles up doesnt necesserely mean just one thing- hes stil so young.
> Does he come to guests? Goes around them, does he wawe tail? Seeking attension? IF he just hates guests, I doubt he doesnt do that at all.


He does come to all guests when they walk in....It just takes a few minutes of him going nuts and barking and backing away/moving forward (I ALWAYS have him on leash when guests come). Then once he calms down, he'll go up and sniff them for a few minutes and then hes totally fine.


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> You don't want to correct fear. fear is an emotion, not a behavior. It will only confirm that strangers are scary and make him hurt.


Yes - I've read this on a ton of forums and I agree! I don't want to punish him for being fearful because it only reinforces that fear. So I'm just trying to figure out how to reinforce positive associations with strangers


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

carmspack said:


> TOO MUCH "I did a ton of socialization with him from 8 weeks on - brought him to BBQs and carried him through shopping malls, grocery stores, and I bring him to work with me every day, so he's been exposed to all kinds of delivery people plus the people in my (very small) office. He's great with other dogs and he's OK with people in very very busy areas, like shopping malls or busy parks. We also enrolled him in a puppy socialization class when he was about 9/10 weeks old. "
> 
> now you have to go backwards .
> 
> ...


I totally agree that I've done too much - I think because this is my first GSD, I went a little overboard with researching and trying to do my absolute best that I put too much pressure on the situation. I started yesterday just going back a little - sitting on my front porch with him and giving him treats as people and cars went by. I'm going to continue doing the "socialization from a distance" and see if that helps!

Also - the Benadyl is for an allergy situation that we are dealing with (he's been gnawing all his hair off his front arms) NOT as a sedation method.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The following has worked for me with a shy dog while we had guests over. Make sure to instruct guest to IGNORE the dog.
1. dog in crate half an hour before you expect the first visitors (safe distance away but in sight) when guests arrived, dog being ignored.
2. 15 minutes after everybody has settled and dog is calm, take dog out on leash as if it is no big deal, keeping a comfortable distance and play and reward for a minute.
3.Let the dog take it in for a few minutes, then back in the crate for another 15 minutes.
Repeat, repeat. The intermittent crate times give the dog time to process.


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> OP, your trainer should be able to easily explain to you why your dog can perform with few distractions but falls apart in more exciting scenarios. It is only because you haven't worked up to that point. Ask your trainer to outline the steps in between. It's a totally normal thing and it only means you haven't finished your work yet.
> 
> I would not allow the dog to be loose and barking and advancing and retreating with guests. That sounds like an accident waiting happen. I hope you are not using an e collar to try and get control of the dog under these circumstances. I really question that an e collar is the right thing for this dog at all.
> 
> ...


Hi - he is ALWAYS on leash when we have guests over - I never just let him run up to them. And the e-collar is not for correcting any behavior at this point - we are ONLY using it right now during basic commands to get him comfortable with the feeling (ex: "sit", e-collar click, treat). 

And I am totally OK with him barking when someone comes by - I get that that's just part of their genetics and I like that about him! It's just the not being able to control what he does after the first initial barks...


As to the not listening to commands in more exciting scenarios - I guess I'm just a little worried because it seemed like he was much more attentive to me even in exciting situations until about a month ago. I worked with him on training at home, at the office, in the yard, on walks. He seemed to do well in all of them. Just all of the sudden, he's only listening indoors.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

KJohnston 
"Both parents have amazing temperament (I've met them both), no health issues, and I see 3 other puppies from the litter regularly (they are all well adjusted, not fearful, very confident). "

so an issue of genetic temperament problems ? maybe not so much BUT 

KJohnston 
"when we got him at 8 weeks, he was pretty shy around strangers"

but is this what the pup was when you made the selection - what was YOUR experience with him
was he shy and hesitant with you ,
did you see him with his other litter mates 
how did he fit in with them -- normal or stand out 

so if the dog was at a sensitive time then the pup should have been allowed to find his bearings and adapt to the new home , find trust , find out to whom and where he belonged to-- 

instead he was catapulted into social pressure cooker .

I would treat him as I would a dog that is "rescued" , at his current age, history unknown .

2 week shut down --- mini sessions of on lead work - with reward -- to build bond 
guests in house -- go to safe-den


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> With dogs like this, you may need to simply accept that he will always need to be managed to some degree. This doesn't just mean physical restraint or separation but also training that is bombproof that you can use to control the dog's actions.
> 
> That is what management is- control over the dog's actions through restraint or voice commands.
> 
> ...


Thank you - this is great advice and I totally agree. I think because this is my first dog I am still learning how to read him. He is getting there with those 3 commands (heel, come and down). Not 100% yet and definitely not 100% when he's excited or overstimulated. I will continue to work on those and read the book you recommended, as well as the videos. 

I know there is no magic solution to this and it's going to take a lot of work and LEARNING on my part! I am definitely willing to do the work. I basically research and read EVERY DAY about how to best train this dog! Its a lot of trial and error for me. And I think I put so much pressure on myself to do it right that I'm actually making it worse. 

And I am also using the e-collar now to proof commands he knows (sit, down, heel, etc)


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

carmspack said:


> KJohnston
> "when we got him at 8 weeks, he was pretty shy around strangers"
> 
> but is this what the pup was when you made the selection - what was YOUR experience with him
> ...


My experience with him before we brought him home was totally normal. He played and slept with littermates, came up to me and my husband easily and not fearful at all. He actually followed us around and seemed totally confident. When we started socializing him, we did it in small doses - 30 minutes at a mall, 20 minutes at a BBQ, and figured that that type of socialization would help him get over his shyness around strangers. Perhaps in our naivete we totally screwed up and over-socialized him! I was under the impression (from research and the humane society puppy classes) that it was of utmost importance to introduce him to as many things as possible starting as early as possible! I really hope that our decision to do that did not screw him up and cause all of this fear.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

KJohnstone, genetically shy dogs can be fine, until they hit a certain age. If you see what I posted in the 'dog pet peeves' thread, you'll see that was the case with my dog. I THINK it's a throwback to wolf behaviour - the pup is confident when with its littermates and mom, but when it reaches the age where it would be out on its own in a world that's very hostile to wolves, it becomes very fearful of new things. Of course, a wolf that's NOT suspicious of new things is pretty soon a dead wolf.

I may be wrong about this, but it makes sense to me. There's got to be a genetic reason for 'fear periods'!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The dog suddenly not performing while distracted may be adolescence...unrelated to the dogs other issue. I totally agree with what Carmspack said


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Kona will barge and bark at a stranger for a few seconds when they walk into the house. Then she just keeps her distance and watches. I leash her when I open the door now. 

The best thing I have done so far has been let her be a dog just like carmspack said

No pressure and I let her socialize if she wants to. No force. Also you don't want your dog to see people acting not normal.

The lunging and the barking on walks is a concern


Put your dog in a sit from a distance and start giving the dog treats for NOT reacting and re direct the dog if they start to focus on the person. Start from a distance


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm wondering if there might be a health/neuro connection here. Have you run a thyroid panel on this pup? If not, I would do it....just to be sure there's no metabolic connection here, since a defective thyroid _can_ trigger anxiety, fear, and even aggression...and skin/coat issues too (which he apparently has too)...it's the two of those things together that would make me want to rule out a metabolic issue here:
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_6/features/Dogs-With-Hypothyroidism_15723-1.html

As for the suspected food allergy....I'm not a fan of using Benedryl to deal with a suspected, chronic food allergy. I say this as someone with a dog with a severe food allergy that took months to diagnose. The diagnosis of the allergen is the hardest part. How will you know if the elimination diet trial works, if you are constantly suppressing symptoms with an antihistamine? 

As antihistamines go, I've known a few dogs who needed them every day for something like a grass allergy, and Zyrtec was better for them because it lasts 24 hours and doesn't some of the side effects Benedryl has in dogs. Benedryl can be sedating in some dogs. However, I've known a few dogs who became AMPED UP on it (reverse reaction) -- same thing happens in humans (a friend's young kids go bonkers on it, like you'd just given them a sugar bomb). I'd talk with the vet about maybe taking the Benedryl out of the equation and treat symptoms topically to keep the dog comfortable (medicated shampoo for the body/feet and medicated wipes for the ears), so that you aren't complicating the behavior picture with potential drug side effects right now.

Also, the new research that came out this year in JAMA connecting long-term use of Benedryl with dementia risk in humans got me wondering about long-term neurological effects in dogs. Note the three categories at the end, with Benedryl in the riskiest for long-term use in people -- this got my attention because many human allergy sufferers in my circle take it at night regularly:
http://www.agingbraincare.org/uploads/products/ACB_scale_-_legal_size.pdf
Common anticholinergic drugs like Benadryl linked to increased dementia risk - Harvard Health Blog - Harvard Health Publications

Lots of hypothesis, but maybe some things you can talk through with your vet and have your vet help you consider.


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

Magwart said:


> I'm wondering if there might be a health/neuro connection here. Have you run a thyroid panel on this pup? If not, I would do it....just to be sure there's no metabolic connection here, since a defective thyroid _can_ trigger anxiety, fear, and even aggression...and skin/coat issues too (which he apparently has too)...it's the two of those things together that would make me want to rule out a metabolic issue here:
> https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/8_6/features/Dogs-With-Hypothyroidism_15723-1.html
> 
> As for the suspected food allergy....I'm not a fan of using Benedryl to deal with a suspected, chronic food allergy. I say this as someone with a dog with a severe food allergy that took months to diagnose. The diagnosis of the allergen is the hardest part. How will you know if the elimination diet trial works, if you are constantly suppressing symptoms with an antihistamine?
> ...


Thank you so much for this - a lot to think about and I will definitely talk to my vet about doing a thyroid panel. He's had so many weird health things that I feel like it may be connected to his behavior.

And I will stop the Benadryl today - you're right - either the Benadryl or the food switch has been helping, but we have no idea which one! And he has seemed to be a little crazier and harder to handle since being on Benadryl daily (its only been a week but hes turned into a monster...I thought maybe it was from switching him from raw to this processed diet, which we did at the same time as starting the Benadryl...) The vet originally prescribed Prednisone, which I did not want to give him, so we settled on Benadryl as a compromise, but I'll take him off that as well.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One thing that did help with my fearful dog was finding activities she enjoyed, and then I could praise her for doing well. She really enjoyed beginner agility, which is done with the jumps set at a height where the dog can just step over them (don't want to stress joints that are still growing.) She also did well at Rally obedience.

Another thing is to increase her confidence by letting her know YOU are in charge. Teach her to focus on you when she is passing another dog or person. Make sure she is never walking out in front of you, where she might feel she has to deal with the approaching person/dog all on her own. Let her know, "Hey, I got this...you don't have to worry!" Watch her closely and the second she starts to fixate on the approaching person/dog, do whatever you have to do to break her focus. Call her name, do a gentle leash correction, offer a treat...whatever! Then lots of praise when she switches her focus.

When she does react, I'd do my best to keep her moving. Do you tense up when someone's approaching? Are you maybe anticipating her reaction, and possibly triggering her by communicating your tension to her? It's VERY important with reactive dogs NOT to do this. Walk confidently, on a loose leash, without tension. (Cesar Millan does a great job of teaching this.)


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I would like for you to talk with your vet before stopping the antihistamine -- don't make drug changes based on Internet advice. Rather, engage in conversation with your vet about what you are thinking about -- a good vet should be your sounding board for thinking through things that you learn here.


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## KJohnston (Jul 17, 2017)

Magwart said:


> I would like for you to talk with your vet before stopping the antihistamine -- don't make drug changes based on Internet advice. Rather, engage in conversation with your vet about what you are thinking about -- a good vet should be your sounding board for thinking through things that you learn here.


Absolutely! I always talk to my regular vet before making medicine, diet or any other changes  I have a phone consultation already set up with him today. Thank you for the advice!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> You don't want to correct fear. fear is an emotion, not a behavior. It will only confirm that strangers are scary and make him hurt.


CD never said correct the dog for being afraid. CD said correct the dog for acting like an idiot. There is a big difference. Fear response in this case comes with barking like crazy. You can punish barking and lunging.

The trick is in the procedure.


Bad procedure: You're sitting there with puppy. A stranger walks up and the dog goes to bark and you correct the dog the dog keeps on and off barking between corrections and the person leaves and the corrections stop.

Good procedure: youre sitting there with puppy. A stranger walks up and dog barks and you correct the dog hard enough to get him to stop. Person continues to stick around until dog is not barking and ideally once the dog leaves avoidance to try to air scent the person and then the person leaves. You try this over and over until the dog stops barking in response to the person showing up and once that happens you praise or reward as appropriate.

In the first procedure the dog associates the appearance of the stranger with the correction and that is very very bad. In the second procedure the dog associates the behavior of barking like an idiot with the correction, and because that response is blocked is going to be open to being taught a new appropriate response.

This whole you can't correct a fearful dog meme needs to be taken behind the barn and shot dead. You do need to consult a qualified trainer before proceeding with this though.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Baillif said:


> CD never said correct the dog for being afraid. CD said correct the dog for acting like an idiot. There is a big difference.


I am sorry but "acting like an idiot' is not a very clear description of a behavior. And I am sure this is based on fear, just poorly described.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So I'll clarify a little. Acting like an idiot means. Someone comes to door, I open door invite guest inside. Apollo, hackles up, barking, advances, retreats, advances, retreats, runs half up the stairs, runs back down, whole time hackles up and barking. So I said enough of this. Next time I knew someone was coming over I put his collar and leash on him an hour before they were to arrive. " make sure the leash has no handle to get caught on anything. So guest arrives I grab leash walk to the door. Apollo along with the others are barking. I open door invite guest in. Athena and Rosko sniff guest while we're talking. Then become uninterested. Apollo is on leash barking, hackles up, advancing, retreating, same as listed above. Except stairs. In a calm manner I say, Apollo enough. "which he knows from when it's just us to stop whatever he's doing and chill". He keeps it up. I correct hard enough to get his attention. Tell him to sit. He sits for about two seconds. Then starts to growl and hackle up. Wanting to retreat. Harder correction, leash pressure to sit him beside me in a heel position. He is silent and calm he gets praise. At this point he wouldn't take treats. he acts out again he gets a NO and a correction. A couple times of this and he almost by default will either sit beside me if I'm standing. Or if I sit he lays at my feet.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

That being said I have done a lot with Apollo to get him to a point where he can function almost normal. He still has fear, I can see it, people that know dogs can see it. A lot of people probably don't. I don't ask him to be social. I do require that he has manners and doesn't act out. Indifference is what I was hoping for and we have almost got there. Both in the house and in public.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Well described. I have seen this behavior frequently in poorly socialized dog or dogs with genetically unstable temperament. What you described sounds just like fear aggression. By all your corrections you may get the result you are looking for but all you are doing is suppressing the behavior like a bandaid over a wound but it won't go away like that. Instead, you may very well be creating a fear biter who, as a growing up dog, will take an opportunity to bite someone who walks away from him or when he feels cornered on leash and forced to be social at the door.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Correcting fear responses will subside the actual emotional fear felt. Won't necessarily get rid of it completely but you can't train the fear out of a fearful dog. It is a good first step toward desensitizing them to fearful situations though. Dogs will never desensitize and acclimate to something if they're in a full blown crazed reaction.

Socialization without a framework of being able to communicate agreement and disagreement is often more harmful than it is beneficial.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

cdwoodcox said:


> So I'll clarify a little. Acting like an idiot means. Someone comes to door, I open door invite guest inside. Apollo, hackles up, barking, advances, retreats, advances, retreats, runs half up the stairs, runs back down, whole time hackles up and barking. So I said enough of this. Next time I knew someone was coming over I put his collar and leash on him an hour before they were to arrive. " make sure the leash has no handle to get caught on anything. So guest arrives I grab leash walk to the door. Apollo along with the others are barking. I open door invite guest in. Athena and Rosko sniff guest while we're talking. Then become uninterested. Apollo is on leash barking, hackles up, advancing, retreating, same as listed above. Except stairs. In a calm manner I say, Apollo enough. "which he knows from when it's just us to stop whatever he's doing and chill". He keeps it up. I correct hard enough to get his attention. Tell him to sit. He sits for about two seconds. Then starts to growl and hackle up. Wanting to retreat. Harder correction, leash pressure to sit him beside me in a heel position. He is silent and calm he gets praise. At this point he wouldn't take treats. he acts out again he gets a NO and a correction. A couple times of this and he almost by default will either sit beside me if I'm standing. Or if I sit he lays at my feet.


Honestly I don't love the sound of this. The dog wants to retreat, as evidenced by running away up the stairs. This dog isn't even an adult right, about a year?

I mean, I wouldn't leave him to bark with hackles and advance and retreat either, I already said I didn't like the sound of that, but this sounds like forcing him past his comfort zone and not giving him space to get back and feel safe. 

It just sounds like a gamble to me. He might learn that he is safe at your side if you keep people from touching him which you probably do, or it might backfire along the lines of what Wolfy said. Not a gamble I would personally take. I would be keeping this dog back a little from the action and working with him back there. (or have him put away completely during people walking into the house)


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I don't leash him anymore when company comes over. Like I said he barks with the others then will come sit or lay beside me. He appears to be calm and indifferent at this point. Matter of fact if you were to come over and hang out for longer than 10 - 15 minutes he would probably at some point venture over to sniff you out. Then he would be fine with you. 
Same with public encounters. If I were to stop to talk to you he would sit beside me and eventually venture over to sniff you out. All of the investigation by him happen much quicker if the stranger totally ignores him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baillif said:


> CD never said correct the dog for being afraid. CD said correct the dog for acting like an idiot. There is a big difference. Fear response in this case comes with barking like crazy. You can punish barking and lunging.
> 
> The trick is in the procedure.
> 
> ...


I somewhat agree that the whole "don't correct a fearful dog" is limited...at least. But I think the dynamic changes when you put the dog on a leash and say it has to stand there next to you in whatever proximity to what scares it. I like allowing fearful dogs to retreat peacefully if they show stress signs OTHER than aggression similar to BAT, so you can teach them to get themselves some space without blowing up and then they feel safe in their environment and they trust their person to get them out of a situation they can't handle.

Entrance to the home is tough because you can't choose space, you can't keep the dog under threshold...I know I know there are a whole host of trainers who think thresholds are nonsense.

If Apollo were my dog I think I'd put him away while people enter the home and if they are staying, bring him out in a controlled way, let him see them from as great a distance as possible inside the confines of the home, do some positive training to help him feel better over all when he sees the person but isn't blowing up and try to work back in that way. I'd be more on board with correcting him for a blow up under those circumstances too because he is a lot less overwhelmed and a lot less forced into being close to them.

Fearful dogs can really blossom if they have a little space and a little safety with boundaries.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > So I'll clarify a little. Acting like an idiot means. Someone comes to door, I open door invite guest inside. Apollo, hackles up, barking, advances, retreats, advances, retreats, runs half up the stairs, runs back down, whole time hackles up and barking. So I said enough of this. Next time I knew someone was coming over I put his collar and leash on him an hour before they were to arrive. " make sure the leash has no handle to get caught on anything. So guest arrives I grab leash walk to the door. Apollo along with the others are barking. I open door invite guest in. Athena and Rosko sniff guest while we're talking. Then become uninterested. Apollo is on leash barking, hackles up, advancing, retreating, same as listed above. Except stairs. In a calm manner I say, Apollo enough. "which he knows from when it's just us to stop whatever he's doing and chill". He keeps it up. I correct hard enough to get his attention. Tell him to sit. He sits for about two seconds. Then starts to growl and hackle up. Wanting to retreat. Harder correction, leash pressure to sit him beside me in a heel position. He is silent and calm he gets praise. At this point he wouldn't take treats. he acts out again he gets a NO and a correction. A couple times of this and he almost by default will either sit beside me if I'm standing. Or if I sit he lays at my feet.
> ...


This was just a part of his training. Along with this we also done a lot of confidence building. Tracking has been phenomenal for Apollo. Bond building and obedience has been a big part.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> t. Matter of fact if you were to come over and hang out for longer than 10 - 15 minutes he would probably at some point venture over to sniff you out. Then he would be fine with you.


First of all, I think this is a good topic and an interesting discussion. Second, in this situation when he is just about OK, what would happen if someone he just sniffed out, suddenly stood up? I have seen several dog in home visits that have bitten in that very same scenario.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you were training for something like that you wouldn't want to have someone just stand up suddenly. That is one of those potential situations where for safety you need to have a line on the dog to prevent the dog from ever getting there successfully and to correct his attempt to try or you have a muzzle on. Either way when you're training a dog like that you need precautions in place and the guest you are using needs to be instructed to not do sudden movements unless you're specifically trying to correct that behavior out of them.

Confidence building is more about trust building. The dog needs to be taken through the "fire" with you enough times and come out untouched except for when it tries to escape or acts inappropriately when you're taking them through the "fire." Once they reach that understanding of ok I have to do this and they have enough repetitions of coming through it ok if they decide to just begrudgingly go along with it and the outcome is good it becomes easier and easier for them to just trust your leadership.

Zebu and Storm are both really nervous dogs temperamentally. If they are scared or fearful their default behavior is to get close to me and follow me. They will never just run off they will just get closer to me and maybe hide on the other side of me and just trust me to deal with it.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Once Apollo sniffs them out and they are allowed to pet him. He is totally fine with them. they can go outside come back in. Go to different rooms. He is just OK. No more barking or fear. A lot of times he winds up pestering them to pet him. 
I didn't come up with this stuff by myself. When I started club in January I took Apollo to my second week at club and most weeks after. The people there have helped with his socialization, advice, and ideas. This plan may not be the best for all dogs. But it has seemed to work for Apollo. But, It it has been guided by some really good trainers looking at Apollo in person.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I also had the issue of when a stranger would enter a different room or come back in kona would bark a few times. Not really sure why other than her being unsure? 

She generally loves to soclialize with people but would rather be the one to approach.

Also I never have anyone over because I have a aggressive cattle dog....but today we had some workers over and kona did not bark once at them and seemed very interested.
Seems like our confidence/trust building is slowly helping.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I think the distance thing is awesome. We leash kona and let the visitors enter and let kona watch them from a distance first. It lets her see that they are welcome in the home and not a threat. Seems to work pretty good for her.


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