# My DDR/Czech GSD was chased off by a deer.



## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

LOL. I may be making way too big of a deal out of this. I was throwing his ball across the yard into the wooded lot as I always do. All of a sudden I hear a huge ruckus and out he comes as fast as he can with a 75lb doe hot on his heels. These small whitetail around here are not aggressive like a mule deer. We assumed she was protecting her fawn.

My question is this. He is almost 11 months old and doesn't act scared of anything and has shown a good amount of protection drive. Why was he afraid of a little doe? Shouldn't he have fought back if the deer attacked him? He didn't even bring his ball back. Is it that he is young? Is this part of the slow to mature part?

As I said it may be no big deal. I just have a problem with my supposed to be big bad male DDR/Czech "fight til death" buddy turning tail and running in fear from a deer.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Did he go back in afterwards to get his ball? If not then yeah your dog might be a wuss 

On the bright side you don't have to worry about him chasing deer.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Every seen a deer attack! I would run too. 


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

has he ever encountered deer before?? Maybe something new ..

I have a herd of deer that are here every day, behind my fenced in yard (husband feeds them)..my czech/ddr girl doesn't chase them, she is so used to them being around, along with turkeys,woodchucks, squirrels, rabbits IN the yard, she doesn't even bother with them..I don't consider her a wuss because she leaves them alone, but I don't think she'd back off from one that challenged her either..Not saying your boy is a wuss at all, he's young, mine is 6 years old and has basically grown up with the wildlife here, plus I have chickens she hangs with..

I wouldn't worry about it, you don't want him chasing deer anyhow, here a dog can be shot for running wildlife.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LOL, yes, at 11 months, he is just a baby, and not ready to take on a defensive/protective role. 

Czech/DDR dogs mature notoriously slow. So he won't be an adult until he is 3 or 4 years old. Maybe he will be a more cautious type of dog, or he may be a different dog, with nerves of steel - give him time to grow up.

As an example, I do IPO/protection training with 1/2 Czech dog. Evem at 16 months of age, the trainer and I could see that he had a lot of potential inside, but he was still a somewhat unsure pup. Too much pressure in training, and he 'tuned out' - I let him mature at his own pace, and didn't put him to test again until he was 3 years old - very different results! No worries about his mental strenghts (not that I had any to start with).


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

A startle reflex is instinctive, just like when a human jumps if someone pops a balloon behind the head most times. It's how fast they bounce back that really shows their nerves, but even then there are certain weaknesses that may or may not be overcome. Your dog may be the complete opposite if the same scenario happens tonight, or he may be leery around deer for the rest of his life. Either way, it's part of who he is for better or worse

I've never seen Delgado scared of anything, but last week we had a major thunderstorm and while both dogs were outside there was a loud BOOM that literally shook the house and scared the bejeebus out of me. Both dogs hightailed it back into the house in a flash, but two seconds later Delgado was back at the door wanting to go back outside again. Just because they are startled doesn't mean they are weak nerved. This is the same dog that sat through a Canada Day fireworks show at 5 months old and ended up dozing through part of it! The noise caught him offguard, that's all

BTW - Delgado is DDR/Czech/WG working line


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

He sees them every day. They are everywhere. No, he did not act timid afterwards. He went back and got his ball. He starts to chase them but he calls back easily. Immediately after that episode he saw others and alerted and went towards them until I called him back.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

remember the attacking dog that got chased off by the cat ?

A deer protecting her young is going to be very assertive . Just think of it as saved vet bills.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> He sees them every day. They are everywhere. No, he did not act timid afterwards. He went back and got his ball. He starts to chase them but he calls back easily. Immediately after that episode he saw others and alerted and went towards them until I called him back.


Then you have nothing to worry about in that regard IMO


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

My dog would go after the deer every time he would see or hear them, many times way before I could. Thank god he had a bullet proof recall, otherwise I'd be worried to get him back...


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Ha, I'd want my dogs to be used to deer and not be startled by them, but I'd prefer they not choose to tangle. Deer can have wicked sharp hooves, and you also have to contend with antlers on the bucks which can get downright aggressive in rutting season. I'd rather avoid the vet bills.


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## Skywalkers Mom (Oct 26, 2012)

Live in a wonderfull meadow with daily dee2r roaming and grazing. They usually travel(does) together. I sat on my back porch and watched them gang up on and run off a bobcat. My youngest(dog) just sat and watched also. They also run off coyotes.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I wouldn't be upset by him running from an attacking deer. Deer can cause some damage when they want to. The deer is fighting for survival. I wouldn't want my dog to take on any wild animal unless it was for survival of myself and the dog. I would rather they run back to me as yours did to you.

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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol the Deer must not have heard all the DDR hype.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think it was a smart move on your dogs part. Have you ever seen the damage a deer does to a car? They are not small animals and if she was protecting her young, then she meant business. Good thing here is that hd might have just learned a lesson and not chase any deer, a very good thing.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol the Deer must not have heard all the DDR hype.


Lol I thought the same thing. Didn't know these ddr/Czech dogs were so fierce. Mine loves to cuddle


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## jetdog (Oct 9, 2005)

My opinion of your dog's response is "smart boy" LOL. Getting in between any mother and her young can be very dangerous, and I'm sure your 11 month old could tell the doe was dead serious about her intent. Live to fight another day... I have a 11 month old half DDR boy who is just a big goofy lug right now; at that age they still have a ton of mental and physical maturing to do. I wouldn't have an issue if my boy responded the same way; I'd take him back to the area and play fetch the ball like crazy to make another positive association there.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I may have told this story before, but here goes. 

Friend was out on a search with his GSD. Came across a baby deer bundled deep in grass. Dog attacked baby deer. Before handler could get a word out, Momma deer came out of nowhere and slammed into dog, sending him flying!!! Dog never looked at another fawn again!!! And we come across them a lot on Wilderness searches. 

Momma deer are deadly to dogs. I see no reason a dog if any age should pick a fight for no reason. Your dog showed appropriate response. Would you want him to challenge a momma bear???? No. Chose to fight another day. Unless said momma bear was attacking you. Then hopefully he would stick around. 


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

For the sake of an argument I would not be happy with a dog that runs from any animal be it a deer, coyote or bear. Exhibiting caution is fine, running is not. Just not acceptable for me.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

a mother protecting her young is an entirely different item than a run of the mill every day deer
i think the hormones are entirely different and they will kill another animal if they can so your dog was wise and like others said probably saved you a big vet bill or even worse having to dig a grave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEZOmgInmj0 for example...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> For the sake of an argument I would not be happy with a dog that runs from any animal be it a deer, coyote or bear. Exhibiting caution is fine, running is not. Just not acceptable for me.



Love Devils advocate!!! but I would rather my dog and myself be safe. If I was threatened, different story. I don't like rewarding stupidity. By dog or human. If there is no immediate need to engage, I would prefer my dog to use their head and be safe than engage a ticked off bear for the sake of being brave. Seems like a waste to me. 


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

Two years ago we had our young shepherd on leash at the end of a 10 mile (round trip) hike. JUST 1/4 mile from the car a doe deer became fixated on the dog. She wanted that dog. She flanked us, chased us, got in front of us, rushed us. My husband was warding her off with his walking stick, I was running uphill draggng the dog who curiously wanted to go meet this creature (not even barking at it, just a "I want to be your friend" vibe). I certainly wished he would have run from the deer thereby helping me run up hill for 1/4 after 10 mile hike! She didn't appear to have a fawn. I think she wanted my dog to be her fawn. Very scary. That was pretty much the last time I hiked because I tore my meniscus during that or shortly thereafter. Never been up to mountain hiking since.

I would rather my dog retreat to me than tangle with wildlife and get injured or killed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Blitzkrieg, just wait till your pooch meets with Mother Goose, a big old Canada Goose sitting on a clutch of eggs.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

I think it depends on what kind of dog you want. If you want a loving pet then you want the dog to run. Those people would call the dog smart. If you want a personal protection dog then I would want the dog to be cautious but stand it's ground and bark. Id rather a dog be stubborn and get hurt than one that gets nervous and run. Those people would call the dog fearless. 

Besides if that Deer or any other animal was running for you then your dog would just be running right past you with its tongue hanging out wishing you luck. I wouldn't want my dog to run from anything unless called off. If he's unsure I'd want him to fight rather than flight.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

simba405 said:


> I think it depends on what kind of dog you want. If you want a loving pet then you want the dog to run. Those people would call the dog smart. If you want a personal protection dog then I would want the dog to be cautious but stand it's ground and bark. Id rather a dog be stubborn and get hurt than one that gets nervous and run. Those people would call the dog fearless.
> 
> Besides if that Deer or any other animal was running for you then your dog would just be running right past you with its tongue hanging out wishing you luck. I wouldn't want my dog to run from anything unless called off. If he's unsure I'd want him to fight rather than flight.



So you would prefer your dog to engage in a fight and get injured when there was no immediate threat to you, just cause you don't want him to back down from things?? 

I get it if the deer attacked/charged YOU! But in the OP post it didn't. Huh. Interesting. 


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Blitzkrieg, just wait till your pooch meets with Mother Goose, a big old Canada Goose sitting on a clutch of eggs.


All dogs run from geese, you notice I didnt mention them..lol. Seriously she has tried to go after a few..the dog has an unhealthy obsession with all birds. I wouldnt mind if she backed off but to turn tale and bolt..no thanks. We have all seen it, the other animal postures up or charges. The dog either backs off and circles, engages, or bolts completely. 

I never said I want the dog to immediately engage the other animal like a mindless bull terrier, but to bolt? Not ok for me.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> So you would prefer your dog to engage in a fight and get injured when there was no immediate threat to you, just cause you don't want him to back down from things??
> 
> I get it if the deer attacked/charged YOU! But in the OP post it didn't. Huh. Interesting.
> 
> ...


It's not about you. It's whether the dog responds with fight or flight. Clearly most dogs would rather flee. You think a dog that takes off running from a deer would really protect you from a threat? That's living in fairy tale world.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there was no "you" in the scenario. The dog dashed into the brush to fetch a ball and was surprised by a hostile , doe protecting deer .
Good survival strategy , pick your wars .

Anyway , seen this often enough , dog playing on flat , field , fetch the ball well enough. Same dog , same ball , toss that into a corn field , into heavy bush , dark building and see what happens to the dog. This is one of the things which eliminates dogs from use in law enforcement (hesitation , refusal)


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

simba405 said:


> It's not about you. It's whether the dog responds with fight or flight. Clearly most dogs would rather flee. You think a dog that takes off running from a deer would really protect you from a threat? That's living in fairy tale world.



No I thinks that's asking of my dog what's appropriate engagement. 

An unknown child running at me screaming with a sand shovel. A bear protecting its young, a lawn mower turned towards me, a car coming at me down a street. I want my dog to understand the difference and know when to fight and when to not fight. A deer running my dog off their young, but not directly threatening me, I want my dog to disengage and come back to safety. A deer charging me and threatening me, I want my dog to engage. 

I think it's fairy tale land to expect a dog to fight when it's clearly NOT the prudent or safe thing to do. I don't need my dog to engage any and everything that may possibly at some point in the distant or never future become a possible maybe threat to me. It's a ridiculous expectation. And a dangerous one. 


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Blitzkrieg, just wait till your pooch meets with Mother Goose, a big old Canada Goose sitting on a clutch of eggs.


This actually happened to Midnite and I. We were working on his dog reactivity at a park with a pond. There weren't any dogs around so I decided to walk him around the pond. We got almost all the way around when I seen not one but several families of geese, the babies were all different ages. We were surrounded almost immediately. I swear it was the moms, the dads, aunts, and uncles too. They were not afraid to loudly guide us out of there. I kept thinking to myself please don't bark or lunge at them and thankfully he didn't, but he didn't take his eyes off them. They were right in his face, he wasn't backing down, neither were they and when I walked faster so did they. When Midnite stopped I had to pull him to get him moving. I actually was talking to them as we moved out of there. They did not stop following us until they felt the babies were safe. I have never been hissed and growled at by a goose like that. They meant business and they were all ready to take both of us down.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes , know of a dog that had his eye struck , had to be removed and sewn shut. My brother was head of Parks (landscape) for the Toronto Islands --- in spite of do not feed signs , people still feed the geese. One year a boy was chased , and , well , he lost something rather private and rather important . These are powerful birds that can give a good blow with their wings .

Fairy tales , before they were bowdlerized , were dark and grim and cautionary tales .


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> there was no "you" in the scenario. The dog dashed into the brush to fetch a ball and was surprised by a hostile , doe protecting deer .
> Good survival strategy , pick your wars .
> 
> Anyway , seen this often enough , dog playing on flat , field , fetch the ball well enough. Same dog , same ball , toss that into a corn field , into heavy bush , dark building and see what happens to the dog. This is one of the things which eliminates dogs from use in law enforcement (hesitation , refusal)


Afraid of the dark or refusing to go after a ball in brush? Never seen a dog like that. Not saying it doesn't happen, but sounds strange.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no different than a dog that may have issues with flooring or surface .


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> No I thinks that's asking of my dog what's appropriate engagement.
> 
> An unknown child running at me screaming with a sand shovel. A bear protecting its young, a lawn mower turned towards me, a car coming at me down a street. I want my dog to understand the difference and know when to fight and when to not fight. A deer running my dog off their young, but not directly threatening me, I want my dog to disengage and come back to safety. A deer charging me and threatening me, I want my dog to engage.
> 
> ...


So you expect the same dog that ran from a deer to suddenly stand it's ground if that Deer charged you? Again that's being very wishful. The dog can't stay and fight for itself but will stay and fight for you?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogs would hunt in packs.

dogs would pick the weakest and the youngest .

the others they leave alone.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

carmspack said:


> dogs would hunt in packs.
> 
> dogs would pick the weakest and the youngest .
> 
> the others they leave alone.



Huh?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Afraid of the dark or refusing to go after a ball in brush? Never seen a dog like that. Not saying it doesn't happen, but sounds strange.


Throw your dog's ball into thick brush or one with thorns. You'd be surprised how many would rather not search for it or only search for a couple seconds. 

Again it depends what you are doing with the dog. For a pet youd call a dog smart for not going into thorns. For a police dog you'd call it a bad dog for not going in.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

simba405 said:


> So you expect the same dog that ran from a deer to suddenly stand it's ground if that Deer charged you? Again that's being very wishful. The dog can't stay and fight for itself but will stay and fight for you?



Yes. If I was being attacked, and could not protect myself, different story. 




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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Yes. If I was being attacked, and could not protect myself, different story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So a dog that can't even stay and fight for its own life is going to stay and fight for yours? Cmon now you can't honestly believe that? 

I'd bet good money if the deer charged the OP the dog still would've ran.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

simba405 said:


> So a dog that can't even stay and fight for its own life is going to stay and fight for yours? Cmon now you can't honestly believe that?
> 
> I'd bet good money if the deer charged the OP the dog still would've ran.



But the dogs life was not threatened. It had clear retreat. It had a way out. 


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

simba405 said:


> So a dog that can't even stay and fight for its own life is going to stay and fight for yours? Cmon now you can't honestly believe that?
> 
> I'd bet good money if the deer charged the OP the dog still would've ran.


My dog ran off from my old roommate who tried to swat him on the butt, then the same guy slapped me on the arm and Eko tried to bite him. I believe what gsdsar is saying.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have seen several dogs try to bite someone that moved suddenly which includes playfully slapping the owner. Didnt mean a thing.
I wouldnt trust a dog to protect anything that ran from a little smack unless it was all play.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

had the scenario been a deer grazing surprised by the dog and running away then likely the dog would have pursued in prey mode.
This deer was in defensive charging mode . A singular dog , for its own safety would avoid . Had the dog been running with his canine pals there may have been a different strategy , because dogs still work co-operatively in packs . Strong healthy animals tend to be left alone . Better chance with tackling some feeble animal or some very young one, less chance of injury .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have seen several dogs try to bite someone that moved suddenly which includes playfully slapping the owner. Didnt mean a thing.
> I wouldnt trust a dog to protect anything that ran from a little smack unless it was all play.


I wouldn't trust a dog that would try to bite in all situations. If there was a play fight and the dog approached with a warning bark that is one thing but to just go for the bite and skip the warning? That is a liability I wouldn't want.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I wouldn't trust a dog that would try to bite in all situations. If there was a play fight and the dog approached with a warning bark that is one thing but to just go for the bite and skip the warning? That is a liability I wouldn't want.


Who said they wanted or trusted a dog to bite in all situations? What he said that he wouldn't trust a dog to truly protect if it ran away from a slap on the butt.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have seen several dogs try to bite someone that moved suddenly which includes playfully slapping the owner. Didnt mean a thing.
> I wouldnt trust a dog to protect anything that ran from a little smack unless it was all play.


Maybe my example is not a very good one, but it was to show how I could see a dog that would rather move away from a situation where he may get hurt but still step up and protect his owner. I don't think that's a bad thing, I feel the same way. If someone tried to seriously hurt me I'd get away from the situation but I would do my best to protect someone I cared about who was being hurt.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

simba405 said:


> Who said they wanted or trusted a dog to bite in all situations? What he said that he wouldn't trust a dog to truly protect if it ran away from a slap on the butt.


My dog chose not to bite someone who he was very familiar with who tried to smack him, I think that was very good judgement on his part. I trust him to protect me, he has always gotten between me and anyone he thought was a threat to me including a man with a knife.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

simba405 said:


> Who said they wanted or trusted a dog to bite in all situations? What he said that he wouldn't trust a dog to truly protect if it ran away from a slap on the butt.


I stated what I thought about a dog or dogs like that. I know what he said about slapping a dog on the butt and I didn't disagree with that.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

would rather my dog run, had my gsd take off after a bear with cubs once, she hesitated to follow her recall command for about a second.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Amazed at what humans expect from their dogs. ego issues maybe? Dont know.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't mess with momma Cranbrook Deer, Dog, Cat Confrontation

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1497951/posts


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

A healthy sense of self preservation is a good thing, IMO. If there is no REASON to fight (e.g. protection), going after the deer rather than deciding not to unnecessarily risk injury shows a dog that doesn't think first.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Agreed LoveEcho! Thankyou.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

lesslis said:


> Amazed at what humans expect from their dogs. ego issues maybe? Dont know.


I think the issue is that some people just like the general public in most cases think that all GSD's are police/military dogs with training and will give that fight in all situations, when in reality most people have them as pets and wonderful deterrents. In most situations I am going to protect my dog and I don't really expect him to die for me. I would much rather have a dog that chooses to pick its battles.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Yea your right llombardo. Just frustrated with it. Feel bad for some of these poor dogs.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I don't think given the situation, a lot of posters here really would know how a dog would act if their owner was under attack from an animal. It reminds me of the video about the different dogs and what they would do if their house was broken into. The maker of the video was sure no dogs would attack unless they were trained to. Thing is, they wore a bite sleeve on every entry and the owner was not in any of the houses which really didn't prove but one thing. The makers of the video had no idea how the dogs would react given the situation. Video proved nothing.

Like here, dog was on his own in the brush and got chased by a deer. Owner not being attacked and a young dog. He did the right thing. But how does anyone know if the dog would not have defended it's owner? You just don't.

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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Purchasing and training a "to the standard" GSD can give you a somewhat idea but sure dont want a gsd that bites and fights everything that moves or blinks. Unstable comes to mind.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

These posts are crazy. I wouldn't want my dog to engage in anything that could cause him harm in any way. He doesn't need to protect me. That's not what I got him for. If I need protection, I'll carry my gun; and protect him too. 


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> A healthy sense of self preservation is a good thing, IMO. If there is no REASON to fight (e.g. protection), going after the deer rather than deciding not to unnecessarily risk injury shows a dog that doesn't think first.


Or a dog that does think and after assessing the threat coming at him, decides he can defeat that threat (whether that's true or not). Some of you would call the dog stupid. Others would call the dog fearless. 

I'd personally be disappointed if my dog ran from anything. Back up and bark is fine. Running to dodge the animal is fine. Bolting the other direction would leave me disappointed. I could see that in a show line but wouldn't be acceptable in a big bad alpha ddr/Czech dog


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Some dogs choose flight over fight. Some choose fight over flight. I prefer the latter.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Fight for what in this case? Other breeds maybe, nice dogo, but a smart gsd? Not table training here!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lesslis said:


> Fight for what in this case? Other breeds maybe, nice dogo, but a smart gsd? Not table training here!


Has nothing to do with table training... 

Fight because of an aggressor, being aggressive. The only options are fight or flight. In many ways, you see the *real* heart of a dog (or person) when you come upon these unplanned, spontaneous tests life throws at you.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I never said I want the dog to immediately engage the other animal like a mindless bull terrier, but to bolt? Not ok for me.


This is how I feel.

I expect my dogs to stand and face a threat, engage if warranted.

This will usually spook the aggressor anyway. This is why if charged by a mt lion the best bet is to charge back...


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

What about risk/reward assessment? (I'm a behavioral ecologist and I study predation behavior, so the application in this sort of scenario is really fascinating...). High risk, low/no reward. Most animals in the wild, including top predators, will rarely stay and fight "just because" if there is no resource to be gained (or, in this case, someone to defend). So at what point does domestication as "fearless protectors" overwrite natural instincts of self-preservation? Though, in this case, because the dog is not protecting anyone, "fearless protector" doesn't apply. Hm...


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Ok can understand not wanting my gsd to run screaming from the woods and also prefer a dog bark and alert to a problem. Just trying to understand this fight the deer like a wild wolf thinking.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> What about risk/reward assessment? (I'm a behavioral ecologist and I study predation behavior, so the application in this sort of scenario is really fascinating...). High risk, low/no reward. Most animals in the wild, including top predators, will rarely stay and fight "just because" if there is no resource to be gained (or, in this case, someone to defend). So at what point does domestication as "fearless protectors" overwrite natural instincts of self-preservation? Though, in this case, because the dog is not protecting anyone, "fearless protector" doesn't apply. Hm...


Too many variables to really cut it down to purely risk/reward. Some dogs could have prey stimulation regardless of the aggressive nature of the deer and give chase anyway. Some dogs would see the deer as an encroacher/competitor on their territory. Some as a threat that must be dealt with through the application of violence. Animals are smart, they learn where danger resides. If every time a herd of deer cross a certain road one gets hit by a car, the others will find an alternate crossing eventually.

There are lots of possibilities depending on the situation and how the dog perceived it. Social animals frequently defend the collective... its high risk/low reward for themselves, but high reward for the family/social unit. 
In the case an animal is within its own perceived territory, there is the loss of resources at stake. 

When you cut it all the way down to your dog being alone in an area its never been before to mitigate the influences of the above, then we have high risk. The reward is less tangible. The reward could be security. If I went into strange bar and a guy said "you, not welcome... leave" and I knocked him out and went about my business at that bar, I doubt I'd be messed with again.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lesslis said:


> Ok can understand not wanting my gsd to run screaming from the woods and also prefer a dog bark and alert to a problem. Just trying to understand this fight the deer like a wild wolf thinking.


First, domestic dogs and "wild wolves" are one and the same species lol.

All non-friendly (and some friendly) interactions between animals are a sequence of back and forth posturing to "sort out who's who". Its like a poker hand where each party must raise the pot, or fold. I want a dog who always raises to force the others' hands. Always. Always, and always. To take the analogy further, not a dog who goes all in every time. One that just raises enough to force the others fold


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

I hear ya hunterisgreat. I think we just prefer a different type of dog. No problem.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lesslis said:


> I hear ya hunterisgreat. I think we just prefer a different type of dog. No problem.


What do you prefer? A dog that will not take it as far as is needed?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> When you cut it all the way down to your dog being alone in an area its never been before to mitigate the influences of the above, then we have high risk. The reward is less tangible. The reward could be security. If I went into strange bar and a guy said "you, not welcome... leave" and I knocked him out and went about my business at that bar, I doubt I'd be messed with again.


In most bars around here, you'd be leaving on a gurney after every other macho dude swarmed 

In any case, here the deer is probably not in the dog's perceived territory. There is no loss of resources at stake or family unit to defend (the owner is not present). There is, in the basic sense, nothing to be gained. In the wild, even predatory species will retreat if there is no potential reward (possible food, defense or gaining of breeding rights or territory, defense or gaining of resources) or the reward is not great enough. Really, everything can indeed be cut down to risk/reward when you put it in the simplest form (+ or -). Prey stimulation is +. Territoriality is defending against a potential - (so, kind of a -(-)=+). Aggression simply for the sake of aggression and "raising the pot" is typically a very humanistic way of looking at it. But, considering these are domesticated animals bred for the purpose of protection/guardianship, looking at it that way is important. I'd be curious how the same dog would react once they were a mature adult.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We are talking about an 11 month old; not exactly a fully mature dog.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> We are talking about an 11 month old; not exactly a fully mature dog.


Exactly, that plays a BIG role... if we're talking behavioral ecology here, a juvenile is going to behave in a much different way than an adult.


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

Years ago I had a run in with deer. Upon arriving home from work I always went out and ran with Jack. Sometimes I would let Jack run loose with me part of the time. All of a sudden he comes up on a doe and pursues it as the doe kicks it into high gear. I was stunned and bummed. Jack was in rocket drive and my call back failed. Stunned at how fast it all happened, Jack cut across the forest floor like a race horse, jumping over dead trees, shallow ravines and streams. They both disappeared into the gray light of the evening dusk. With my adrenaline pumping I ran back to the house to get a flashlight and my truck. I planned getting on the service road that we always ran on. I went to try one more recall. Before I could get it out Jack was coming at me like a freight train. Once he got back on our property he swung around next to me, hair up and barked like I never heard him before. A buck had stopped at the edge of the yard snorting and kicking. I picked up a good size stick and threw it at the buck. I slapped my side for Jack and we both headed for the enclosed deck. Once safely on the deck the buck left in a huff at a trot looking at us all the way until he disappeared into the forest. I figured Jack probably ran straight into a harem. I learned three things that night. One, I needed to work on my recall. Two, you are not coming on my property angry without an argument. Three, we were both lucky. OP your pup did just fine. Rest in peace Jack.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> In any case, here the deer is probably not in the dog's perceived territory. There is no loss of resources at stake or family unit to defend (the owner is not present). There is, in the basic sense, nothing to be gained.


Lol the Deer straight up took the dogs ball and the dog ran. Id say that's a loss of resource.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> In most bars around here, you'd be leaving on a gurney after every other macho dude swarmed
> 
> In any case, here the deer is probably not in the dog's perceived territory. There is no loss of resources at stake or family unit to defend (the owner is not present). There is, in the basic sense, nothing to be gained. In the wild, even predatory species will retreat if there is no potential reward (possible food, defense or gaining of breeding rights or territory, defense or gaining of resources) or the reward is not great enough. Really, everything can indeed be cut down to risk/reward when you put it in the simplest form (+ or -). Prey stimulation is +. Territoriality is defending against a potential - (so, kind of a -(-)=+). Aggression simply for the sake of aggression and "raising the pot" is typically a very humanistic way of looking at it. But, considering these are domesticated animals bred for the purpose of protection/guardianship, looking at it that way is important. I'd be curious how the same dog would react once they were a mature adult.


My point is that the sum of the of riskS is weighed against the sum of the possible rewardS, and even then, all individuals have a very different "risk appetite". 

You'd be surprised how many "macho" guys don't get involved when they realize the guy is not another "macho" guy. Its the "macho" part of "macho" guys that is their first line of defense "Look at me huff and puff, I'm big and scary!!". When you hear someone say "I'm not even going to waste my time beating your asdfasdf" that can be roughly translated to "I'm no longer sure this is a fight I can win, I'm going to save face and find my out". Its very rare, but the guy who *knows* he is going to win, not *hopes* he will, will do far less posturing.

Walk up on a wild boar and let me know what happens. 

I beg to differ... the aggression is not for the sake of aggression... its for social order, preservation of one's resources/territory, or to prevent future aggression. the exchange when posturing is something ALL animals do. ALL. We ALL first make eye contact. The only reason staring at a dog will bring out aggression, defense, or avoidance/submission is because ALL animals understand that. My FISH will hide if I stare at them, and mill about when I don't. 

Then, we try to look bigger:
Sharks arch their backs. Dogs hold their head high and flag there tail & hackle. Even humans "hackle" (goose bumps), men puff up their shoulders and square off. Bears stand on their hind legs. Frill necked lizards frill their necks. Cobra's spread their hood. Rattlesnakes coil and inflate with air. Elephants spread their ears. Komodo dragons inflate their lungs and neck and stand as tall as they can with their tails held off the ground. Many Spiders rear up on their hind legs. Yellowhead Jawfish hold their mouths wide open. Puffer fish inflate, most other fish erect their spiny fins.... I can keep going.

Next there is the sound:
Dogs growl, Humans cuss, Bears roar, Frill necked lizards hiss, cobras hiss, rattle snakes rattle and hiss, elephants trumpet, Komodo dragons hiss, 

If that doesn't work, the distance is closed between parties with more of the above. If that doesn't work, minor contact is made. If that doesn't work, the matter must be settled by combat. And even then among the same species there are often non-fatal ways to conduct combat.

It is so far reaching and pre-dating humans that the only thing human about you saying its a humanistic way of looking at it is the arrogance that humans have to think the world evolves around us.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> We are talking about an 11 month old; not exactly a fully mature dog.


Another variable I failed to mention. Age.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> If I went into strange bar and a guy said "you, not welcome... leave" and I knocked him out and went about my business at that bar, I doubt I'd be messed with again.


:rofl: Not around here. There's a very strong "pack" drive. But luckily for you, the hospital is very close to the bars. You are welcome to come test your theory. :crazy:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: Not around here. There's a very strong "pack" drive. But luckily for you, the hospital is very close to the bars. You are welcome to come test your theory. :crazy:


I don't fight  The use of "I" was only theoretical.

Yeah, if there are a bunch of his best friends and its an outlaw biker bar you walked into, you might be up a creek on that one... but your average bar isn't like that. And even then the friends will usually not intervene at all, or will break it up. I've only seen one full on bar brawl in my life out of hundreds of bar fights. That one brawl was the only one that didn't go as I said above. I even got involved (no choice. Smack in the middle alone). Turns out I fought on the "right side" as I found out afterwards there were two groups of "friends". One composed largely of bar employees. I by chance "fought" on their side. The other side all went to jail that night, I got free drinks. Anyway, I digress.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Another fact of life - there will always be someone bigger and better than you. Or here's another - pride comes before the fall.

Personally, I don't have anything to prove so I pick my battles as wisely as I can and I expect and hope my dog to do the same. I'd rather have a smart dog then a dead dog, same as any human that I care about. Fighting for the of fighting, heck no. I've done self defense and martial arts but I'd never use either for any reason other than a life was at stake. In the OP's case - there was nothing of the sort. Why would I expect my dog to act any differently, if he does - well he made his decision and I'll hopefully be there to dig him out of the mess if needed.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Shade said:


> Another fact of life - there will always be someone bigger and better than you. Or here's another - pride comes before the fall.
> 
> Personally, I don't have anything to prove so I pick my battles as wisely as I can and I expect and hope my dog to do the same. I'd rather have a smart dog then a dead dog, same as any human that I care about. Fighting for the of fighting, heck no. I've done self defense and martial arts but I'd never use either for any reason other than a life was at stake. In the OP's case - there was nothing of the sort. Why would I expect my dog to act any differently, if he does - well he made his decision and I'll hopefully be there to dig him out of the mess if needed.


I don't think its pride at all that makes a dog do what he does... not sure how that applies. Anyway, the conversation was going towards dogs in general, not the OP's case

This whole business of training protection dogs... or fighting men, is to convince them beyond any self doubt, that they are infact the biggest, baddest, mofo that has ever walked the earth. Of course its not true, but this the under lying theme of any protection training in a dog.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Would never want or expect a 11 month old gsd puppy to rip out the carotid of a deer. No thanks. Now at 4 or 5 just knock that darn helper out and stop when I tell you. : )


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lesslis said:


> Would never want or expect a 11 month old gsd puppy to rip out the carotid of a deer. No thanks. Now at 4 or 5 just knock that darn helper out and stop when I tell you. : )


Yeah I wasn't talking about puppies.


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

I know, just keeping it light. Love em all. Prefer a high threshold obedient thinker.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't fight  The use of "I" was only theoretical.
> 
> Yeah, if there are a bunch of his best friends and its an outlaw biker bar you walked into, you might be up a creek on that one... but your average bar isn't like that. And even then the friends will usually not intervene at all, or will break it up. I've only seen one full on bar brawl in my life out of hundreds of bar fights. That one brawl was the only one that didn't go as I said above. I even got involved (no choice. Smack in the middle alone). Turns out I fought on the "right side" as I found out afterwards there were two groups of "friends". One composed largely of bar employees. I by chance "fought" on their side. The other side all went to jail that night, I got free drinks. Anyway, I digress.


You are incorrect. Sorry. This may be typical where you live but don't base your statements, that you are touting as fact, off one small part of the world. Anyway, whatever. I suggest you not test that theory in NEPA or CT (apparently the NE has anger issues that the south doesn't). You will find out exactly how very little you know. Pack Drive is alive and well.

Do you have a degree in animal behavior or psychology? It just seems that you come on very strong in these threads as if you have a vast bank of knowledge.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lesslis said:


> I know, just keeping it light. Love em all. Prefer a high threshold obedient thinker.


I'd think we all do lol. Yet to hear "I prefer low threshold unruly potentially mentally challenged dogs" lol


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I'd think we all do lol. Yet to hear "I prefer low threshold unruly potentially mentally challenged dogs" lol


Hey, I have one of those and he's a trip


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

Cool we all do like a great gsd!


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Do you have a degree in animal behavior or psychology? It just seems that you come on very strong in these threads as if you have a vast bank of knowledge.


You can gain knowledge through experience. Doesn't always have to be in a classroom


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> You are incorrect. Sorry. This may be typical where you live but don't base your statements, that you are touting as fact, off one small part of the world. Anyway, whatever. I suggest you not test that theory in NEPA or CT (apparently the NE has anger issues that the south doesn't). You will find out exactly how very little you know. Pack Drive is alive and well.
> 
> Do you have a degree in animal behavior or psychology? It just seems that you come on very strong in these threads as if you have a vast bank of knowledge.


Does one need a degree to observe the world and draw conclusions on those observations? I think not.

lol yes my small life's experience is made of up one bar I've been to in my tiny southern town. Your statement shows how little experience you have in the deep south lol. Truth me told, I've been around the world several times. I've been in the military which exposes me to ALL types of people from ALL over the country, and with alcohol, testosterone, aggression, and boredom thrown in for good measure.

You can't say I'm incorrect because I can't generalize based on my experience while effectively doing the same yourself lol. Thats just faulty debating.

Here's some data up your direction. Still inline with everything I said:

"Michael Parks and his colleagues trained dozens of observers who analyzed 860 aggressive incidents across 503 nights in 87 large clubs and bars in Toronto, Canada. Aggression was defined as anything from a verbal insult or unwanted physical contact to a punch or kick. Incidents were twice as likely to involve one-sided aggression as opposed to mutual aggression. The most common incident involved a man making persistent unwanted overtures or physical contact towards a female. Male on male aggression was the next most frequent category. All-female aggression was rare.
Third parties intervened in almost one third of these situations, and they were more than twice as likely to intervene in a non-aggressive way than to be aggressive themselves. Eighty per cent of third parties who got involved were men. Drunk third parties were more likely to be aggressive. Surprisingly perhaps, the most frequent kind of aggressive incident (male on female) was the least likely to provoke third party involvement. One-sided aggression between men also provoked few interventions. Parks and his team think this is probably because such incidents are judged to be non-serious and unlikely to escalate."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gotcha. You are King. I didn't realize.

I never claimed to know anything about the south. I was being sarcastic in that statement. Nor was I generalizing. I made it very clear I was speaking of my area, which is specific.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Gotcha. You are King. I didn't realize.
> 
> I never claimed to know anything about the south. I was being sarcastic in that statement. Nor was I generalizing. I made it very clear I was speaking of my area, which is specific.


Well, he IS great apparently


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Gotcha. You are King. I didn't realize.
> 
> I never claimed to know anything about the south. I was being sarcastic in that statement. Nor was I generalizing. I made it very clear I was speaking of my area, which is specific.


Why do you keep trying to make this about me or center this around myself or my perceived "ego"? Its got nothing to do with me, or me fighting, or me being king, or me being in Charleston...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

??? I think you have me confused with someone else. I didn't say anything about "your perceived ego" until you got nasty with me for simply asking what your experience was since you come on very strong with opinions that are only opinions. Maybe you are being a bit defensive or paranoid and perceiving that you have a perceived ego. Maybe you should go back and read my TWO posts (yeah only two before you got nasty) again because it's seems to be you trying to pick a fight with me. 

But anywho...work to do. No time to play today. Carry on with your bar fights and wildlife psychology.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ??? I think you have me confused with someone else. I didn't say anything about "your perceived ego" until you got nasty with me for simply asking what your experience was since you come on very strong with opinions that are only opinions. Maybe you are being a bit defensive or paranoid and perceiving that you have a perceived ego. Maybe you should go back and read my TWO posts (yeah only two before you got nasty) again because it's seems to be you trying to pick a fight with me.
> 
> But anywho...work to do. No time to play today. Carry on with your bar fights and wildlife psychology.


You appeared, when I read "But luckily for you, the hospital is very close to the bars. You are welcome to come test your theory." to have been implying, with rather threatening language I might add, I was talking not in the general sense, but that I myself will be in the mentioned scenario. Then went on to give me suggestions about testing my "theories" which you immediately discount by my lack of a degree on the subject matter. Once again, the attack is against me, not the merit of what I said... Then you gave up and called me "king". I hope its clear why none of the above was effective in disproving my "theory". Or proving. Just white noise. 

I don't feel I've been anything that could be described as "nasty". Still, noted, and I'll try to use more smilies and "lol"s lol.

And my entire point could be summed up as "When observing bar fights, or wildlife interactions, the psychology behind the participants remains the same".


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Jax do you have anything insightful to add to the discussion or are you just here to tout how your town has a lot of "pack drive" aka I can't handle things myself so I scream for my friends to jump in?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> You appeared, when I read "But luckily for you, the hospital is very close to the bars. You are welcome to come test your theory." to have been implying, with rather threatening language I might add, I was talking not in the general sense, but that I myself will be in the mentioned scenario. Then went on to give me suggestions about testing my "theories" which you immediately discount by my lack of a degree on the subject matter. Once again, the attack is against me, not the merit of what I said... Then you gave up and called me "king". I hope its clear why none of the above was effective in disproving my "theory". Or proving. Just white noise.
> 
> I don't feel I've been anything that could be described as "nasty". Still, noted, and I'll try to use more smilies and "lol"s lol.
> 
> And my entire point could be summed up as "When observing bar fights, or wildlife interactions, the psychology behind the participants remains the same".


ok first. I never once threatened you. I was laughing because I know how the people in my area are and it wouldn't fly here. They are nuts. Flat out nuts. So for anyone to say that a person could walk into a bar and punch someone and get away with it is crazy.

Second, I simply wanted to know your experience. I rarely post here anymore but have noticed that your opinions are quite strong and wanted to know your experience. 

I'm sorry that threatens you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

simba405 said:


> Jax do you have anything insightful to add to the discussion or are you just here to tout how your town has a lot of "pack drive" aka I can't handle things myself so I scream for my friends to jump in?


Who are you? Was I speaking to you? I think Hunter can handle himself and doesn't need anyone to jump in for him.

I've never screamed for my friends to jump in. Do you see anyone helping me?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Who are you? Was I speaking to you? I think Hunter can handle himself and doesn't need anyone to jump in for him.
> 
> I've never screamed for my friends to jump in. Do you see anyone helping me?


By reading his responses it's definitely clear he needs no help. I'm just asking a serious question. Do you have anything insightful to add?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> ok first. I never once threatened you. I was laughing because I know how the people in my area are and it wouldn't fly here. They are nuts. Flat out nuts. So for anyone to say that a person could walk into a bar and punch someone and get away with it is crazy.
> 
> Second, I simply wanted to know your experience. I rarely post here anymore but have noticed that your opinions are quite strong and wanted to know your experience.
> 
> I'm sorry that threatens you.


"Flat out nuts". When people are described that way or purposely try to be perceived that way that all I read is "hard posturing from an insecure person(s)". All I see is a dog barking behind the fence with no real heart to back up all that noise... I've told people many times before, if you go into a bar and tell someone to step outside the one that gets all "nuts" is just putting on a show in the hopes you'll rattle. The one that doesn't even get up, and just says calmly "make your move" its going to put you out. The funny thing is both are playing the social posturing game and likely unaware. Dogs do the same things. Infact there is no behavior in a dog I don't see a compliment in people. "Fear aggressive", submissive, dominate, avoidance, prey drive, defensive drive, sex drive, pack drive... humans have the same. We even chase balls, some to the point of obsession

Again "I'm sorry that threatens you"... attacking the ego lol. If anything, my strong opinions should communicate to you that I'm not easily threatened lol. :wild: The veiled threat was the "you come try that in my town and we'll (they'll) put you in the hospital"


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> You are incorrect. Sorry. This may be typical where you live but don't base your statements, that you are touting as fact, off one small part of the world. Anyway, whatever. I suggest you not test that theory in NEPA or CT (*apparently the NE has anger issues that the south doesn't)*. You will find out exactly how very little you know. Pack Drive is alive and well.


I noticed this after living in the northeast for a year, much higher percentage of grumpy/angry people than most places I've lived. This was in the 90s though, not sure if its changed.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Nigel said:


> I noticed this after living in the northeast for a year, much higher percentage of grumpy/angry people than most places I've lived. This was in the 90s though, not sure if its changed.


And yet, the most violent states are largely in the south... TN #1, my SC #5, Louisiana #7, Florida #8, Maryland #9. Only NE state in the top 10? Delaware at #6.

So that being said, I can draw a conclusion that I can speak with more experience about violence as an SC native and frequently in TN & Florida to boot, than ANY NE state lol


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

opcorn:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

alexg said:


> opcorn:


Hey pass me some.....


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I knew I should have written my dissertation on bar fights. Probably would have been more fun. :wild:


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> I knew I should have written my dissertation on bar fights. Probably would have been more fun. :wild:
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Go sit in a rowdy bar and pretend they are all dogs. Or a dog park and pretend they're people. Same old behaviors


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> I knew I should have written my dissertation on bar fights. Probably would have been more fun. :wild:
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You of all people should see the similarities


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Im not sure why people excuse a running dog by comparison to apex predators. 
We all know wolves, lions etc dont like to fight. It runs counter to an effective survival strategy. They prefer the old, weak, young and injured as there is minimal risk of injury.

I have no wish for my dog to emulate a wolf in any way. I own GSDs for a reason and its not because I want a dog with a healthy sense of self preservation. 
There are plenty of breeds that have that, the GSD wouldnt be very effective in its role as a Guardian or LE dog if it had one.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I haven't read ANY of the responses on here.

I have several takes though -

1: dogs who chase and/or attack dear, regardless of the reason, often tend to end up as dead dogs. So I would not mind one bit if my dog was chased off by a dear, hopefully it will teach him to avoid them in the future.

2: very very very few dogs, even within breeds like german shepherds, have the necessary temperament, nerves, and drives to be true, scared of nothing, solid personal protection dogs. VERY few. And the few dogs that do still require the appropriate training to fully realize this lack of fear and utilize it appropriately. 

3: he's a puppy still. A 3-4 year old mature animal in their prime may not of been scared off.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im not sure why people excuse a running dog by comparison to apex predators.
> We all know wolves, lions etc dont like to fight. It runs counter to an effective survival strategy. They prefer the old, weak, young and injured as there is minimal risk of injury.
> 
> I have no wish for my dog to emulate a wolf in any way. I own GSDs for a reason and its not because I want a dog with a healthy sense of self preservation.
> There are plenty of breeds that have that, the GSD wouldnt be very effective in its role as a Guardian or LE dog if it had one.


Lots of people discuss ethology in relation to wild animals- it's an interesting discussion to have in regards to what the domestication process has introduced/diminished behaviorally (as I mentioned). Nobody compared dogs to wild predators. :shrug:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> I haven't read ANY of the responses on here.
> 
> I have several takes though -
> 
> ...


1. Good dogs shouldn't attack dear. Deer though, they act like prey. I've never personally heard of a deer killing a dog here... And folks are big with deer dog hunting and those dogs are small ~30lbs. 
2. Agree
3. Agree


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

How about a bit more input from the OP. 

I have had GSD's my entire life, 45 years. Back when I was a kid my dad always said that our dog was X Generation out of Germany. 2nd, 3rd. My last big boy was West German Showlines. His parents were direct imports. He was a big black and red. He was the most docile gentle giant you could imagine. I never saw him run from anything, though. LOL. He was never confronted by a deer at the same residence.

I wanted a more dominant alpha male this time. I did my research. I already knew of all the lines but looked more in depth. DDR/Czech it was. He is awesome. Very smart and full of drive. I say he is a firecracker. Mt wife says he is a Tasmanian devil. 

He has that classic scowl on his face when he sees a possible intruder. Awesome expression.

I am an avid hunter. Bow only for the last 20 years. What? Dude? You ran from a deer? Awwwwwwww man.  We don't run from deer homie. LOL.

Yes he is young. I was just hoping he would be a bit more "badass" even at a young age.

Oh well, all is not lost. We live to FIGHT another day.

On another note, Texans are generally very welcoming, nice people. However, act a fool and you will be dealt with in a harsh manner. 

I don't really consider us the south. We're Texas!


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

That and I left a small part out. We have a girl Border Collie that was around at the time. When Gunther ran back into the yard, the deer saw me and stopped by the mailbox. Preslie, the BC went after the deer and boy that deer was not playing and ran her off as well. By this time Gunther was between me and the deer with his hair all standing up and not scared........it didn't matter because I chased the deer off.

He didn't go hide once the chase was over. He came back seeming as if he was ready to at least stand his ground.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> That and I left a small part out. We have a girl Border Collie that was around at the time. When Gunther ran back into the yard, the deer saw me and stopped by the mailbox. Preslie, the BC went after the deer and boy that deer was not playing and ran her off as well. By this time Gunther was between me and the deer with his hair all standing up and not scared........it didn't matter because I chased the deer off.
> 
> He didn't go hide once the chase was over. He came back seeming as if he was ready to at least stand his ground.




He came for back up


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> That and I left a small part out. We have a girl Border Collie that was around at the time. When Gunther ran back into the yard, the deer saw me and stopped by the mailbox. Preslie, the BC went after the deer and boy that deer was not playing and ran her off as well. By this time Gunther was between me and the deer with his hair all standing up and not scared........it didn't matter because I chased the deer off.
> 
> He didn't go hide once the chase was over. He came back seeming as if he was ready to at least stand his ground.


I mentioned a few times I was speaking in the general (meaning adult dog) sense and that I didn't consider (or was aware) of the dogs age. I'm sure my dogs may have startled at a younger age. That being said, my bitch 6 months back ran down and disappeared into the woods less than 3 or 4 feet after a big 250+ lbs boar acting liking she was going to manhandle it. I thought I was going to lose her. She came back a few mins later. He has never come back on my property but *has* made appearances across the street (he must go through my property or my neighbors to get across the street to an interior lot). This boar, who has charged humans (ongoing problem) decided my bitch wasn't worth the shortcut... Because of her brazen boldness. Ideal dog IMO. Understand that she got to the boar only because I can't run that fast. Had I run up on a brawl I'd have been in it in a heartbeat punching, kicking, biting, and gnashing. I'm as committed to their safety as they are to mine. It was her overwhelmingly dominant posture that made a boar many times her size decide to flee. Nothing more.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

hunterisgreat said:


> I mentioned a few times I was speaking in the general (meaning adult dog) sense and that I didn't consider (or was aware) of the dogs age. I'm sure my dogs may have startled at a younger age. That being said, my bitch 6 months back ran down and disappeared into the woods less than 3 or 4 feet after a big 250+ lbs boar acting liking she was going to manhandle it. I thought I was going to lose her. She came back a few mins later. He has never come back on my property but *has* made appearances across the street (he must go through my property or my neighbors to get across the street to an interior lot). This boar, who has charged humans (ongoing problem) decided my bitch wasn't worth the shortcut... Because of her brazen boldness. Ideal dog IMO. Understand that she got to the boar only because I can't run that fast. Had I run up on a brawl I'd have been in it in a heartbeat punching, kicking, biting, and gnashing. I'm as committed to their safety as they are to mine. It was her overwhelmingly dominant posture that made a boar many times her size decide to flee. Nothing more.


 I hog hunt as well and have with dogs in the past. Those hogs aren't near as mean as they are made out to be......unless cornered. That's when the fight starts. I have seen them run from little bunny rabbits and doves.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Wait...did this thread seriously turn into a discussion over who could win a bar fight?? Hunter, your comments always add a nice color to a thread, but you do throw off an air of "I'm-a-badass-and-my-dog-is-an-mma-fighter" attitude that always makes me chuckle. True or not, interesting or not, your message usually gets lost in translation during the eye rolling that is brought on by your comparisons to bar fights, mma wrestling/fighting, etc....some interesting parallels you like to draw.

Anyway.

I have to wonder where the brain and thinking comes into play for some of the owners on here. That's why we love the GSD over the malinois, right? lol, I kid, malinois owners. 

I think it was Winners that told a story about a mali that saw it's owner on the ground while it was searching on the roof. Owner called it thinking it would turn around and go down (or something like that) and the dang dog jumped off the roof and broke it's legs....brains.

Love echo, I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. Risk vs reward is an important part of the analysis/expectation. I realize domesticated dogs (GSDs specifically) don't and shouldn't have wolf characteristics (mainly flight)...however, we want a strong level of THINKING there too, don't we? Do those of you that would be "troubled" by this, really want your dog to stay and fight a deer in the woods, just because? Hunter you always talk about the "big wwf wrestling vs mma" or whatever....usually bringing up brains and discernment, and thinking. Where is the reward in fighting an animal with a good amount of weight and height on you, defending it's young? Especially when your "pack" and "territory" is behind you?

When I was working with an equine vet there were always stories of stupid pet dogs "challenging" horses and getting either killed or a big vet bill from getting kicked. A lot of times the the horse started it (some horses just hate dogs)...doesn't mean the dog should try and get the horse to "step down" because my dog is "all fight." I want my dog to have the brains to know it will not win a fight with a horse, and running under the fence is a better bet. 

I don't want a dog that is all fight, all flight, all prey, all defense, etc. Balance and brains, that's what I want. Most animals that are always looking to fight don't live long (of any species), that's why natural selection has all but eliminated them in nature (brains win over "I want to fight everything" mentality). 

I realize that we want to maintain that fight drive in domesticated dogs, I just think sometimes people want the equivalent to a meat-head wrestler, who speaks in grunts, and punches anything just to punch. 

Off topic, but the drive I actually like to see the in the breed that seems to be disappearing is the hunt drive (and the high level of intelligence and discernment). The dog's ability to not give up, to have a love for the "track," and to want to use it's nose...when we allow the pendulum to swing so far in only focusing on fight drive...it's just like those obsessed with size. You are singling out one drive/aspect, usually at the sacrifice of others.

PS: One of my friend's works a police canine with over 100 "captures" under his belt, active on the street.....that dog is scared of other dogs. Doesn't get aggressive, he actually chooses flight. Yet he's capturing bad guys all the time. How does that work, "fearless" owners? So many would hear someone talk about how their dog is scared of other dogs and talk about how they wouldn't like that dog....that the dog wouldn't be "real enough" for them....yet this dog is out working the streets...as real as you can get. hmmm


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Gunther der Heinz said:


> I hog hunt as well and have with dogs in the past. Those hogs aren't near as mean as they are made out to be......unless cornered. That's when the fight starts. I have seen them run from little bunny rabbits and doves.


Well, I've never seen a deer run at any one or thing. And I've seen thousands. Never met a boar that was nice. Friend honked at a boar standing in the road and it gored and drained his radiator and resumed rooting the dirt road.

For what it's worth, same bitch has ran countless deer.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

dumb some buck lure on yourself, and you'll see a deer come after you


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Wait...did this thread seriously turn into a discussion over who could win a bar fight?? Hunter, your comments always add a nice color to a thread, but you do throw off an air of "I'm-a-badass-and-my-dog-is-an-mma-fighter" attitude that always makes me chuckle. True or not, interesting or not, your message usually gets lost in translation during the eye rolling that is brought on by your comparisons to bar fights, mma wrestling/fighting, etc....some interesting parallels you like to draw.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> dumb some buck lure on yourself, and you'll see a deer come after you


Put doe urine on yourself or your dog and all bets are off.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> PS: One of my friend's works a police canine with over 100 "captures" under his belt, active on the street.....that dog is scared of other dogs. Doesn't get aggressive, he actually chooses flight. Yet he's capturing bad guys all the time. How does that work, "fearless" owners? So many would hear someone talk about how their dog is scared of other dogs and talk about how they wouldn't like that dog....that the dog wouldn't be "real enough" for them....yet this dog is out working the streets...as real as you can get. hmmm


Which police department is this? What's the dogs name? 

I gotta say must be one crappy k9 department to let a dog that's scared of other dogs on the street. Imagine if a criminal ran through a yard with a dog in it. Or imagine a dog sent into a house with dogs? Sounds like a lot of exaggeration on your part.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Wait...did this thread seriously turn into a discussion over who could win a bar fight?? Hunter, your comments always add a nice color to a thread, but you do throw off an air of "I'm-a-badass-and-my-dog-is-an-mma-fighter" attitude that always makes me chuckle. True or not, interesting or not, your message usually gets lost in translation during the eye rolling that is brought on by your comparisons to bar fights, mma wrestling/fighting, etc....some interesting parallels you like to draw.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> ...


I draw on analogies because it's an effective way to help people to understand things they can't come to conclusion, on their own, on. This has served me well as a trainer. Nothing to do with my own dogs. It puts folks minds in a context the can understand in my experience. 

That being said, not advocating for mindless idiots who throw themselves to "the wolves". They got mals for that (sorry mal handlers, sure you can appreciate). That being said, cowardess is cowardess, and I have little tolerance of cowards. I've got your back, you **** well better have mine. End of story, no room for interpretation. 

I've driving cross country this week per request to let someone see my male by a very well known breeder so I'm doing something right


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Wait...did this thread seriously turn into a discussion over who could win a bar fight?? Hunter, your comments always add a nice color to a thread, but you do throw off an air of "I'm-a-badass-and-my-dog-is-an-mma-fighter" attitude that always makes me chuckle. True or not, interesting or not, your message usually gets lost in translation during the eye rolling that is brought on by your comparisons to bar fights, mma wrestling/fighting, etc....some interesting parallels you like to draw.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> ...


Fear, specifically uncontrolled fear, is fear. I don't like fear


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Meh I like fight in a dog. Sometimes people want to much. They want the dog to fight in situation A but run in situation B. Its a dog not some mythical Disnep character.

For me I dont care if the dog always picks fight as option A, just as long as there is never a bolt option. A dog that runs in situation B I would never completely trust again.

As for Hunter's comparisons. I find them to be quite apt. I work in an environment on a daily basis that exposes me to alot of anger, testosterone and mental health. You really get to see and deal first hand with a lot of those dynamics he was going on about. We really arent too different from dogs in many of our base interactions especially when it comes to aggression.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Fear, specifically uncontrolled fear, is fear. I don't like fear


True, but deciding not to engage does not necessarily mean fear (though I'm not saying this is the case in this scenario).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yeah , standing ovation "Off topic, but the drive I actually like to see the in the breed that seems to be disappearing is the hunt drive (and the high level of intelligence and discernment). The dog's ability to not give up, to have a love for the "track," and to want to use it's nose...when we allow the pendulum to swing so far in only focusing on fight drive...it's just like those obsessed with size. You are singling out one drive/aspect, usually at the sacrifice of others."


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> yeah , standing ovation "Off topic, but the drive I actually like to see the in the breed that seems to be disappearing is the hunt drive (and the high level of intelligence and discernment). The dog's ability to not give up, to have a love for the "track," and to want to use it's nose...when we allow the pendulum to swing so far in only focusing on fight drive...it's just like those obsessed with size. You are singling out one drive/aspect, usually at the sacrifice of others."


Don't get me started. Got loads of stories


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dogs and Horses! Had that issue as a kid! Basenji Mix of all things looked like a PB Basenji. That dogs was incapable of making rational decisions! If it had legs he wanted a piece of it!

A long list of dog he did battle with, they never left a mark on him...insanely fast! I remember having to do a full body tackle on him in a field one day when he decided he did not like the look of two horses in his field!!

Never gave a thought to a Basinji as an adult! Ironically enough he lived 18 years uninjured.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Which police department is this? What's the dogs name?
> 
> I gotta say must be one crappy k9 department to let a dog that's scared of other dogs on the street. Imagine if a criminal ran through a yard with a dog in it. Or imagine a dog sent into a house with dogs? Sounds like a lot of exaggeration on your part.


Lol, yeah...over a hundred captures definitely is a "Crappy k9 department." Have you ever worked with police canines or trained them? I've worked through several "classes" and seen even more in action. There are dogs with all kinds of quirks, all kinds of things that would make all the keyboard warriors around here say, "that isn't a real dog." And yet...that dog is out working, capturing bad guys, in the papers etc...Dogs are like people, no one dog is perfect, there are stronger ones than others. Yes, working "in the real world" requires a baseline of nerve, temperament, hardness, etc...but they aren't perfect, most have faults and there are a few "stand outs" that everyone knows across the state both for good reasons and bad. However, ALL are working. 

Blitz, didn't say I didn't enjoy Hunter's analogies...just think a lot gets lost because of the tone/attitude to a lot of people. ~shrug~


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> I draw on analogies because it's an effective way to help people to understand things they can't come to conclusion, on their own, on. This has served me well as a trainer. Nothing to do with my own dogs. It puts folks minds in a context the can understand in my experience.
> 
> That being said, not advocating for mindless idiots who throw themselves to "the wolves". They got mals for that (sorry mal handlers, sure you can appreciate). That being said, cowardess is cowardess, and I have little tolerance of cowards. I've got your back, you **** well better have mine. End of story, no room for interpretation.
> 
> *I've driving cross country this week per request to let someone see my male by a very well known breeder so I'm doing something right*


Sweet, I'm on the other side of the country...can I come watch!? ;-)


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

simba405 said:


> Which police department is this? What's the dogs name?
> 
> I gotta say must be one crappy k9 department to let a dog that's scared of other dogs on the street. Imagine if a criminal ran through a yard with a dog in it. Or imagine a dog sent into a house with dogs? Sounds like a lot of exaggeration on your part.


I could see the "dog in the yard" being a potential issue, but would police knowingly send a dog (any dog) into house with other unknown dogs inside? Even a K9 without fear of other dogs could be injured badly or possibly killed by a couple rots/pitties etc...


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Lol, yeah...over a hundred captures definitely is a "Crappy k9 department." Have you ever worked with police canines or trained them? I've worked through several "classes" and seen even more in action. There are dogs with all kinds of quirks, all kinds of things that would make all the keyboard warriors around here say, "that isn't a real dog." And yet...that dog is out working, capturing bad guys, in the papers etc...Dogs are like people, no one dog is perfect, there are stronger ones than others. Yes, working "in the real world" requires a baseline of nerve, temperament, hardness, etc...but they aren't perfect, most have faults and there are a few "stand outs" that everyone knows across the state both for good reasons and bad. However, ALL are working.
> 
> Blitz, didn't say I didn't enjoy Hunter's analogies...just think a lot gets lost because of the tone/attitude to a lot of people. ~shrug~


Which department? Which dog? I'm genuinely curious.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

All dogs have quirks. Single purpose detection k9s have a lot more leniency for quirks. I can see them being scared of dogs or thunder or etc. Dual purpose k9s not so much. Especially one with so many "captures" under his belt.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Sweet, I'm on the other side of the country...can I come watch!? ;-)


Headed north, not west, but you're welcome to train with me *anytime*


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Which department? Which dog? I'm genuinely curious.


You have a reputation around here for being a genuine a$$, so...no, not going to put a department and officer's names out there. Go and do a ride along (if you can pass the backgrounds) and see the dogs work for yourself...you'll see most, if not all of them, have faults and things the handlers need to work on/with. That's why when someone says, "my byb dog is from a police canine" it doesn't mean much to me, unless I can find out that dog's reputation and maybe see it worked or have someone I trust work it.


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## Gunther der Heinz (Feb 17, 2014)

LOL.

Those deer attractants don't really work. At least not 100%. Maybe more like 5% in certain areas. In areas with a large deer population there is doe urine all over the ground. Where we live has the largest whitetail population in the world.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> You have a reputation around here for being a genuine a$$, so...no, not going to put a department and officer's names out there. Go and do a ride along (if you can pass the backgrounds) and see the dogs work for yourself...you'll see most, if not all of them, have faults and things the handlers need to work on/with. That's why when someone says, "my byb dog is from a police canine" it doesn't mean much to me, unless I can find out that dog's reputation and maybe see it worked or have someone I trust work it.


Of course you couldn't name the department or k9. It's imaginary. A dual purpose k9 afraid of dogs? Pffftt yeah right. Officers lives are on the line with those dogs. Like they would use a dog like that.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Of course you couldn't name the department or k9. It's imaginary. A dual purpose k9 afraid of dogs? Pffftt yeah right. Officers lives are on the line with those dogs. Like they would use a dog like that.


lol, you made me laugh out loud with this. It shows me you don't know much about police k9's. Every dog I've seen washed/worked/trained etc, was working towards or an accomplished dual purpose. There are very few without problems and things that are constantly being worked on. I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, it's the internet...not posting names and locations. Come on..you gunna ask me a/s/l next? hahaha


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

There's a reason it generally takes twice to three times as long to train a patrol dog over a drug dog. Lots of things those dogs need to be proofed to. Other dogs would be one of them. Fail that and they can make a great detection dog


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

simba405 said:


> There's a reason it generally takes twice to three times as long to train a patrol dog over a drug dog. Lots of things those dogs need to be proofed to. Other dogs would be one of them. Fail that and they can make a great detection dog


Well I'll be sure to tell my friend at dinner while our kids are playing that you said his dog is failed and should be moved to detection only hahahahaha. Gotta love dog forum trolls.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Well I'll be sure to tell my friend at dinner while our kids are playing that you said his dog is failed and should be moved to detection only hahahahaha. Gotta love dog forum trolls.


Having dinner with imaginary people is unhealthy....


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> Headed north, not west, but you're welcome to train with me *anytime*


I might have to hit you up next time I'm in SC. Friends have a condo on Hilton Head Island that we visit every now and again. I'd love to train with some of you east coasters, I here ya'll have fun.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> 1. Good dogs shouldn't attack dear. Deer though, they act like prey. I've never personally heard of a deer killing a dog here... And folks are big with deer dog hunting and those dogs are small ~30lbs.
> 2. Agree
> 3. Agree


1: auto correct combined with answering as soon as I wake up in the am. I think we all know I meant deer.

2: I was implying not so much that deer kill dogs, although I HAVE seen several dogs killed by bucks in rut, and last year we did surgery on a lab gored by a buck, made some very nasty puncture wounds in his chest that took major surgery and THOUSANDS of dollars to repair. I was more implying that not only is running wildlife largely illegal, but it's eventually likely to get your dog shot in the wrong area.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

My dog is around sheep a lot.......he has been bowled over a couple times by our cranky rams in the yards because he has not backed down so he is a toughie 
We are lambing down our ewes at the moment so we don't usually take the dogs as it upsets the ewes at this time. I did take them out a couple weeks ago and let them off the back of the Ute while we fixed a trough. Luther approached a ewe with twin lambs and one of our Alpacas wasn't very happy about it and chased him off......was rather funny to watch. He wasn't scared......he just has a very healthy respect for them. He knows he could take one down if he wanted but he chose to retreat cause he is smart.
I don't want a dog who chooses to just attack my alpaca cause he can......I want a dog who can size up a situation and decide if standing ones ground is necessary.......
This pup is only 11months old so he has time to learn that.......Luther would have retreated in the same situation at the same age......not with tail between the legs but with a healthy amount of caution. 
I'm not sure I would write a dog off over this one incident......and call him a wussy......time will tell I guess


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I also think again people going on and on about DOGS.... This is not a dog it's a puppy, and to me a puppy running protective mother deer is just dumb, not "brave". Another key point to dogs that excel at personal protection - the intelligence to engage when appropriate

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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I like how all the ladies on here think a dog is smart for running and all the men think the dog shouldn't back down. 

It's easy to see why they say women live longer than men


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> I might have to hit you up next time I'm in SC. Friends have a condo on Hilton Head Island that we visit every now and again. I'd love to train with some of you east coasters, I here ya'll have fun.


Hilton heads is but an hour or so south


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> I like how all the ladies on here think a dog is smart for running and all the men think the dog shouldn't back down.
> 
> It's easy to see why they say women live longer than men


I will quote Jack London in response

I would rather be ashes than dust!
I would rather that my spark should burn out in a brilliant blaze than it should be stifled by dry-rot.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.
The function of man is to live, not to exist.
I shall not waste my days trying to prolong them.
I shall use my time.


Men fight and die on a regular basis for the benefit of others. Mock that at your own peril.


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