# Prong Collar is not enough



## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi guys, recently i noticed that my dog's prong collar is not that effective.
When i'm giving a correction he's not even feeling it.
And since he wears the prong he got half of his neck shaved.(Like it pulled a lot of hair from around his neck)
Any recommendations for a strong correction collar that won't shave his neck like the prong does?
(Not E-Collar or the standard choke collar)


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

You probably overused the prong so that he basically ignores it now. Go back to a flat buckle or martingale and take the time to retrain proper behavior. If you need to bring the prong back into the picture down the road, it will be more effective because the dog won't be so used to it any more.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> And since he wears the prong he got half of his neck shaved.(Like it pulled a lot of hair from around his neck)


I am not sure how the prong is shaving the fur. I have never seen this on my dogs.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You might want to see if it is fitted correctly and tightly enough. It is supposed to stay put and not go around and around on the dog's neck, pulling hair.
Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

you fitting it and placing it properly?

Here's a good description.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

whoops, was going to post the Leerburg link too.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

What kind of collar are you using and what are the size of the links? It sounds like it might be fitted improperly if it is pulling out hair.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

How exactly are you correcting him on it?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm guessing it's too big, probably the prong size is too big and the collar size is too big if it's not effective and is pinching and pulling out the hair.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Change the wear completely, swap onto harness if you don't like The Canny Company Limited - The Canny Collar - The Best Collar to Stop Dogs Pulling on the Lead, thus you would operate not with his head but with the whole torso.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah use the small prong size links even for big dogs. You may need to buy a few extra links to fit it. What are you using the prongs for? If. It's to keep the dog from pulling its likely your fault for not releasing tension when the dog is in proper position. Without a release in tension the dog has no incentive to maintain the right position.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Prong collars are easy to abuse,and losing hair around the dogs neck? I'd lose it and find a new trainer before you start to abuse a new tool!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

David Taggart said:


> Change the wear completely, swap onto harness if you don't like The Canny Company Limited - The Canny Collar - The Best Collar to Stop Dogs Pulling on the Lead, thus you would operate not with his head but with the whole torso.


I disagree with this advice... Head halters are not something I'd use on a GSD(or any dog). There can be damage to the snout and neck if used incorrectly and you should not use it as a correction collar.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

does your dog wear the prong constantly? don't become
dependent on a certain collar or leash when training is
necessary.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I disagree with this advice... Head halters are not something I'd use on a GSD(or any dog). There can be damage to the snout and neck if used incorrectly and you should not use it as a correction collar.


Thank You!

Proper training is the key if the dogs not getting it "your" doing something wrong!

I got reamed on the Boxer Board for calling Head Halters and such crap and Gizmo's!Boxer folks are kinda goofy" and they fold like an umbrella if spoken to harshly...like there dogs!

Proud (past/sadly) Boxer dad!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The UK uses them because certain breeds have to be muzzled in public in many of the locations. I think they get away with the halti's instead of a muzzle, so they are popular. The site that was linked above is based the UK, I think.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Prong collar properly fitted on my foster dog. Works like a charm.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> The UK uses them because certain breeds have to be muzzled in public in many of the locations. I think they get away with the halti's instead of a muzzle, so they are popular. The site that was linked above is based the UK, I think.


I don't think that's true in the UK, I think maybe in Ireland muzzles for certain breeds are required. I've only been in England 5 years but I've never seen a dog in a muzzle in public here. There also aren't many leash laws. I could be wrong about the laws, but I really never see any dogs muzzled and most are off leash.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

I replied before adding, anyway, I have heard from many people head halters can be dangerous, and it makes sense; when my dog whips her head around in excitement I think her neck would break if I was holding onto her via a head halter. Will never try one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sookie said:


> I don't think that's true in the UK, I think maybe in Ireland muzzles for certain breeds are required. I've only been in England 5 years but I've never seen a dog in a muzzle in public here. There also aren't many leash laws. I could be wrong about the laws, but I really never see any dogs muzzled and most are off leash.


Yes, it is the Ireland law I was thinking of, thanks for clarifying! But aren't certain provinces under their own rules? Do they allow prongs?


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Yes, it is the Ireland law I was thinking of, thanks for clarifying! But aren't certain provinces under their own rules? Do they allow prongs?


Hmm. I'm not sure; England is divided into counties (like our states) and the counties have districts (like our state's counties) which is where you would look to see where you have to have your dog on-leash. In my district there are about two parks and monuments near one of the beaches where there are leash laws, otherwise there are no restrictions. The different countries in the Uk can make laws specific to them, for example, I think Wales recently outlawed e-collars. But as far as I know prong collars are legal in the UK. I have never seen one though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Do you have the smaller links? Made a world of difference for me .


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, it's hard to answer to everybody at once but i will try my best..
The Prong is on the higher part of the neck(Like they show on the videos)
I'm not using the prong collar to correct my dog on every single move he makes, because mostly i correct him with verbal cues.
The main reason i'm using the prong collar on my dog is to tame him on unusual circumstances, like when another male dog suddenly appears on the street and gives him the bad look, or when a cat jumps from nowhere.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So you are correcting him when another male looks at him? That sometimes will backfire and he'll see the correction as coming from that other dog, not what he was doing. 
Tame him? You mean train him, I hope!
There are exercises to work your dog instead of correcting. LOOK AT THAT(LAT) is worth trying. Redirect, be proactive set the dog up to succeed. Try to have him be engaged with you so he'll be more neutral to what is going on around him(carry high value treats or favorite toy that he only gets on walks or in his training sessions).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I think you just answered everybody's question!  I think we were all wondering what it is your trying to achieve? 

I had a BullMastiff/Mix who never was good on a leash. He was OK and not out of control not going to snatch me off my feet but he was just not a pleasant dog to walk on a leash. I used a prong on him and he could care less!

The fault was not with him it was with me, I never used a prong on my following dogs and got excellent result, I adjusted my training on my following dogs and never used a prong on them.

I would lose the prong and forget about the E collar. 

Does he accept treats from you? I never did the treat thing myself on walking but it does work. You need to get close enough to the "target" and then treat the dog. Maybe a minor correction to focus on you and treat again. 

That works with people and dogs just avoid contact keep people from touching your dog, don't let him get close to other dogs and cats (which is why I have a no chasing the cats policy...but I have cats so it was a side benefit) or distraction but if he spots one...minor correction and treat.

Maybe you might need a trainer to help but I would much prefer this approach than going from one "gizmo" to another.

And I'm pretty sure that since you have spelled out your goals other can provide some help!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You have either given enough nagging corrections with the prong that the dog is willing to work through it, or the prong is raising the excitement level of the dog when a correction is given.

At this point, I would go one of 3 ways. I would either teach leash pressure with the prong to the dog so I could steer him away from the stimulus without giving a correction, go to the e-collar and use the Lou Castle Game Chasing (crittering) protocol, or go to a flat collar and work on LAT.

Whatever you choose, doing what you are currently doing is not going to fix the situation, and getting a bigger hammer for the dog isn't going to fix it either. You have to adjust your training to the dog, not necessarily the tool you are using.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

You aren't leaving the prong on all the time are you?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If he left it on all the time it would have imbedded itself in the dogs neck


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

blackshep said:


> You aren't leaving the prong on all the time are you?


I wonder this, too. Otherwise the fur loss makes no sense


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

It depends on how long it's been on though. Rubbing fur might be the first thing, especially if it's too loose.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Certainly possible. It only takes about 3 days of constant prong collar wearing (if it's snug) for it to imbed in the dogs neck and cause visible wounds. When I saw this there wasn't much hair loss though so it probably isn't what happened.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh jeeze, I didn't know that would happen so fast! 

Just another reason to take it off when not in use!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Certainly possible. It only takes about 3 days of constant prong collar wearing (if it's snug) for it to imbed in the dogs neck and cause visible wounds. When I saw this there wasn't much hair loss though so it probably isn't what happened.



Where did you see this?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah luckily I saw it happen before I ever made the mistake myself. That and the e collar contact point rubbing the skin raw thing. If you guys use either one take it off when not in use and in the case of bark collars rotate the collar every 4 hours or so.

See it on dogs every so often. In none of the cases I've seen was it done on purpose it's people not realizing how quickly it can happen.


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> So you are correcting him when another male looks at him? That sometimes will backfire and he'll see the correction as coming from that other dog, not what he was doing.
> Tame him? You mean train him, I hope!
> There are exercises to work your dog instead of correcting. LOOK AT THAT(LAT) is worth trying. Redirect, be proactive set the dog up to succeed. Try to have him be engaged with you so he'll be more neutral to what is going on around him(carry high value treats or favorite toy that he only gets on walks or in his training sessions).


My meaning in "gives him the bad look" is when another dog walks 
next to us and start snarling and barking at my dog, so i'm sorry if i didn't explain myself properly because i wrote it after i got back from work and i'm writing this comment while i just got back from work too.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Why are you walking next to another dog? Not trying to be funny my guys have never walked with "another dog" only each other.


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

blackshep said:


> You aren't leaving the prong on all the time are you?


We only use the prong for like 20min a day MAX, on noon walk and at the evening.
Now i flip the prong to the other side without the spikes and we'll see what's going on with the hair loss on the neck.


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Why are you walking next to another dog? Not trying to be funny my guys have never walked with "another dog" only each other.


When a strange dog walks infront of us(Better?), i never wrote that i walked with another dog while walking with my dogs.
So please instead of just comment the first thing in your head pay attention to what i write, i can't comment on every single message people write here, it's not a chat.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

David Winners said:


> You have either given enough nagging corrections with the prong that the dog is willing to work through it, or the prong is raising the excitement level of the dog when a correction is given.
> 
> At this point, I would go one of 3 ways. I would either teach leash pressure with the prong to the dog so I could steer him away from the stimulus without giving a correction, go to the e-collar and use the Lou Castle Game Chasing (crittering) protocol, or go to a flat collar and work on LAT.
> 
> Whatever you choose, doing what you are currently doing is not going to fix the situation, and getting a bigger hammer for the dog isn't going to fix it either. You have to adjust your training to the dog, not necessarily the tool you are using.


This is exactly the same advice our police K9 trainer told another person in our class. He referred him to a martingale collar or flat with stronger corrections and no more nagging with the prong. The dog is doing so much better in class and when the correction is given the dog looks at the handler like "oh sorry, im paying attention now."


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

David Winners said:


> You have either given enough nagging corrections with the prong that the dog is willing to work through it, or the prong is raising the excitement level of the dog when a correction is given.
> 
> At this point, I would go one of 3 ways. I would either teach leash pressure with the prong to the dog so I could steer him away from the stimulus without giving a correction, go to the e-collar and use the Lou Castle Game Chasing (crittering) protocol, or go to a flat collar and work on LAT.
> 
> Whatever you choose, doing what you are currently doing is not going to fix the situation, and getting a bigger hammer for the dog isn't going to fix it either. You have to adjust your training to the dog, not necessarily the tool you are using.


Usually i'm not pulling on the collar, only on certain circumstances as i mentioned before.
I mostly use verbal cues, and the prong collar is the so called "Hammer" as you mentioned before. 
It's on him when we walk, but i use it only as my "Last resort".
(And as the last resort it's not working as i expect.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> Hi guys, recently i noticed that my dog's prong collar is not that effective.
> When i'm giving a correction he's not even feeling it.
> And since he wears the prong he got half of his neck shaved.(Like it pulled a lot of hair from around his neck)
> Any recommendations for a strong correction collar that won't shave his neck like the prong does?
> (Not E-Collar or the standard choke collar)



Hmmm, why communication, grammar and punctuation are so important. 

"Hi guys, recently i noticed that my dog's prong collar is not that effective." *This statement gives the impression that the collar is not effective, thus it is being used and has lost its charm. * 

"When i'm giving a correction he's not even feeling it." *This statement gives the impression that you are looking for your dog to yelp or otherwise indicate that he indeed has felt the correction. Which gives others the impression that the dog has been 'yanked and cranked' until he is work-hardened.*

"And since he wears the prong he got half of his neck shaved.(Like it pulled a lot of hair from around his neck)" *At first, here I thought that since we started using the prong collar, the dog had a hot spot or injury and needed to have his neck half-shaved. (My pup had a hot spot and got her neck half-shaved.) But the partial sentence within the parenthesis seems to clarify that the collar itself is causing the hair loss. *

"Any recommendations for a strong correction collar that won't shave his neck like the prong does?" *Now for this statement, are we asking for a collar that can deliver strong corrections, or a strong collar that can deliver a correction? 

*Because it sounds like the story has changed now, and the collar is only used for minutes in the day, and the only used in the case of a dog snarling at the dog or a cat jumping out, I am thinking that it must be how the original statements were worded that gave us all the wrong impression. 

I really do want to know though, are you looking for a collar that can deliver strong corrections, or are you looking for a strong collar that can deliver a correction, in whichever case that will not affect the dog's hair around the neck?

You might want to try a chain martingale. You do not want a choke chain -- people have told you that they can injure your dog, well they can. If you choke your dog out with one until it is unconscious as some trainers used to do, it can cause serious damage. They can also be used effectively and safely. But if you are looking for your dog to indicate he has felt the correction, it is probably not the right collar for you. 

A chain martingale, with small links -- think horses, the thick bit is easier on the horse, the thin bit gives more control. Small links will put the same pressure on a smaller area and will deliver more of a correction than the same action with larger links. 

Martingales are not necessarily correction collars. They are no-slip collars. But they are designed just like a prong collar, without the prongs. They can only tighten so far, so you cannot choke-out a dog with them. And the pressure will tighten all around the neck like a prong. 

Usually martingales have a small chain or nylon area that does the tightening/loosening -- the chain noise is desireable and lets the dog know that he is pulling, and a larger area that is fixed around the dog's neck, usually made of leather or nylon. There are some made in all chain though. And if you are concerned with the wear around the dog's neck, chain might be easier on the dog's neck that nylon or even leather.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I don't think you need any prong, it wouldn't work even if you sharpened it with a file. Redirecting your dog's predatory drive works absolutely different way. The use of prong in such situations works like a wake up recall, makes your dog ready for a stronger resistance towards whatever controlls him. Don't forget that prong affects nervous system and makes your dog agitated. Used on a lazy, too much self-motivated, or simply too strong for you and too playful dog in situations *when you cannot draw attention to yourself* any other way could be the only way to direct the dog's attention. But, seems to me you want him *to stop paying attention* to something distracting. When parents constantly tell their children "Don't do this", finally their kids shut the door to their rooms in order to do what they want. You dog shut that door, he is doing what he wants, and prong collar works as a punishment, just stimulating his predatory drive. 
You have to "explain" to your dog that cats and dogs are *worthless prey*. There are many techniques for that, but all of them start with one thing - you should completely ignore the object yourself. Raised voice (ordering any command) is wrong, there shouldn't be any command concerning his reactions, but something non-related like "Heel", "Sit", "Down", "Look at me", "play" - flash for him his ball and redirect his attention. Oh, no... You have to make him ball mad first.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

R-a-m-b-o said:


> ... is when another dog walks
> next to us and start snarling and barking at my dog, .


My mistake?


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## R-a-m-b-o (Feb 17, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> I don't think you need any prong, it wouldn't work even if you sharpened it with a file. Redirecting your dog's predatory drive works absolutely different way. The use of prong in such situations works like a wake up recall, makes your dog ready for a stronger resistance towards whatever controlls him. Don't forget that prong affects nervous system and makes your dog agitated. Used on a lazy, too much self-motivated, or simply too strong for you and too playful dog in situations *when you cannot draw attention to yourself* any other way could be the only way to direct the dog's attention. But, seems to me you want him *to stop paying attention* to something distracting. When parents constantly tell their children "Don't do this", finally their kids shut the door to their rooms in order to do what they want. You dog shut that door, he is doing what he wants, and prong collar works as a punishment, just stimulating his predatory drive.
> You have to "explain" to your dog that cats and dogs are *worthless prey*. There are many techniques for that, but all of them start with one thing - you should completely ignore the object yourself. Raised voice (ordering any command) is wrong, there shouldn't be any command concerning his reactions, but something non-related like "Heel", "Sit", "Down", "Look at me", "play" - flash for him his ball and redirect his attention. Oh, no... You have to make him ball mad first.


Well, the ball on a string is his favourite toy so i guess we'll try it on our next walk.


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