# Should I consider Schutzhund?



## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

I am for sure going to be working with my new girl but I have male that is going to be a year old next week and he has no spectacular pedigree and I plan on having him neutered soon. My question is... he has a VERY high drive and I want to find something to challenge him. Would this be a wise idea or should I just stick with more in depth obedience work? I spoke with my girls breeder and he said I could but he said most don’t worry about titling them if they are not planned on being breed.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There are many people who participate in SchH as a fun hobby for handler and dog to do together, and who do it with dogs who they have no intention of breeding. So just because you don't plan to breed him is no reason you can't do SchH if you find it's something both of you will enjoy. Best way to determine that is to check into local SchH clubs, go watch training and ask questions, have your boy evaluated and give it a try.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

That is absolutely ridiculous. I have zero desire to EVER breed a single dog I ever own, male or female, and I love doing schutzhund. If more people took this approach rather than believing every titled dog should be bred, the breed would be much better off.

Additionally, you will not begin any real training with your new puppy for quite some time so your male is a perfect dog to learn with. The things you learn with him will prove to be invaluable with your "real" dog.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

People do schutzhund with mixed breed dogs that they get from the pound. There is no reason why you shouldn't do it if you enjoy it. My friend got BHs on her Border Collies and one is ready for a Sch1, another woman I know who had titled GSDs was going to try training her Standard Poodle too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yep if you want to try, try! Neutered doesn't matter, pedigree doesn't matter. You won't know until you try. I know of two people with pound mutts who have SchH titles, and I saw Lauri brought her Chinese Crested to a SchH seminar.


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

yup, I am even working my american bulldog with bad joints through all of schutzhund 1 except the jumps. I just want to learn new things and give her something to do, I know she will never go past her bh.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Yes, I think you should consider SchH. My opinion is that you should certainly explore SchH to understand what it means to participate.

The single most important thing I have gained through my pursuit of SchH is an appreciation for what a GSD really is.....I am amazed at what I didn't know a year ago, and I am awed at what I still have to learn. I enjoy every step.

There are two bigs questions....does your dog have enough drive and do you have the passion to train?


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## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

Keep in mind the breeder might likely be a showline type. They (in general) seem to view a titling a dog as a necessary evil and something that they "must" do and very, very often farm the process out for thousands in ca$h. To such a person, going through the effort to title a non-breeding dog might not make sense. 

FWIW, I don't believe in neutering male dogs. I feel it hurts their work (other disagree with this but I strongly believe it) and research shows that for the minimal health benefits cited by vets, there are tons more health issues caused by the practice, especially depending on age. I personally feel that if you can't manage an intact dog you shouldn't own one - it is that simple. I've got an intact male & female at home and have for years. Never had an issue. Most other SchH people do as well. It is part of the PC infusion by radical liberals that has led to an almost zombie like mass belief that you can't be a good pet owner if you don't neuter/spay your animal. While maybe given the abysmally low sense of responsibility possessed by the average Joe these days, sterilization might actually be a good idea, by the sheer fact that you’ve come here seeking information and recognize the need for your high drive dog to have an outlet, you show yourself to be someone of sufficient ability to ensure your dog doesn’t breed accidently. So why not leave him intact to ensure that he develops into a healthy animal?

-Calvin


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## kcox82 (Nov 5, 2008)

I have decided to for sure take him out to a training session and see how it goes, if he has what it takes. I have no other hobbies, want to get them envolved in something. 

Now just to find a good club in my area, seems to be a bit difficult. I had heard good things about DFW Working Dogs but now not so much.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wildhave your boy evaluated and give it a try.


I'm in a similar situation to the OP, and I have a question about getting into schutzhund that goes along with this topic, so I thought I'd add on instead of start a new one to keep the discussion going.

I have a young male (Duke, 14 weeks) without an impressive pedigree, but I would love to find something we can do together. I eventually want to get a GSD *with* an impressive background to really get into schutzhund with. Duke is *technically* my husband's dog (by that I mean we got him with my husbands preferances--a big boy, darkest of the litter, not quite as high ball drive as my Bella) and since my husband wanted one that wasn't quite as OCD about playing ball as Bella I'm not sure he'd be a great dog to do much schutzhund with. HOWEVER, when you get him alone (so he can play with the toys without Bella stealing them!) he looks like he does have SOME drive at the least--when I throw the ball he first looks at me like "is that for me to get?" and then pounces after it.

So, to go along more with the OP and get some more information for both of us--what age should the testing be done at? When do most people get their dogs started? If a dog doesn't do well on the evaluation, might they still enjoy the beginning of the training but just not be competitive (due to not having a deep bite or whatever reason)?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

ok, you don't need a gsd with an "impressive" pedigree to do schutzhund. It helps to know what's behind them, but really all that's needed is the drive and desire in the dog to do it. 

Being a puppy, has he been out and been socialized? Does he play tug of war with you? Do you let him win? Does he have food drive? Even mediocre drives you can sometimes title a dog, some you won't get a Sch1, but if there's an area they won't do, e.g. protection, once you get a bh you can still do TR1-3 and OB1-3 (tracking/obed)


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: mmarie
> So, to go along more with the OP and get some more information for both of us--what age should the testing be done at? When do most people get their dogs started?


I would probably start visiting a club soon. This will allow you to get a better idea if it really is something you want to pursue. They can evaluate Duke for potential and while there is only so much that can be seen in a 14wk old pup, a good trainer will still be able to tell if there is potential there. But most importantly, the trainer can work with *you* to show you how to maximize whatever potential is there. So while it may take a while for him to mature enough to really be sure if he's got it or not, the sooner you get guidance in terms of doing the right things to give him the best possible shot at it.



> Originally Posted By: mmarie
> If a dog doesn't do well on the evaluation, might they still enjoy the beginning of the training but just not be competitive (due to not having a deep bite or whatever reason)?


Much of that is up to the personality and "culture" of the club. Some clubs are more hard core and won't accept dogs (or handlers) who don't have what it takes to title with a reasonable (not extreme) amount of effort. Others are more hobby oriented and therefore more open to people who just want to learn and have fun, even if they don't really have what it takes to title. So it would depend on which sort of attitude the clubs you have access to possess.

If it turns out Duke isn't great SchH potential, but the club is open to letting you try and you're willing to do so, join up and train anyway. Even if titles aren't in his future, you can have fun and learn a lot that will better prepare you if you do get that other dog down the road specifically for SchH. You can also obtain tracking and obedience titles separately from protection, so if you both enjoy those 2 phases but he's not really cut out for protection, you can pursue those titles too. 

Either way you won't know until you try.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

This thread makes me happy to see. We're in no position to get a dog probably for another few years, but when we are, I would love to get a dog I can do SchH with. However, I would very much like it to be just a hobby (at least at first) and I was worried that it would be harder to find a club to work with, and harder to get a dog from a working breeder. It's good to know that it's possible to have a "middle of the road" dog to work with.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks for all the info Angela & Chris! Duke has a pretty good food drive (you can get him to do a whole lot just by holding a couple pieces of dry kibble, and he goes absolutely crazy over Natural Balance log food) and he does love to play tug. I let him win at tug most of the time (my thinking being that I want his confidence to build so I let him win, but I also want to push him to try harder so I don't let him win ALL the time--should I be letting him win more?).

He hasn't been out to be socialized much yet--I've heard that parvo is fairly prevalent in my area so I've been too worried to get him out a whole lot. My sister and her kids are over every day now though, so he is getting lots of experience with kids of all ages. And he is more protective at 14 weeks than I remember Bella being at that age. There is the normal barking at the door when people come up, but at 14 weeks if a car started in front of our house in the middle of the night Bella would just look out the window while Duke will bark his "mean" puppy bark and won't go back to sleep until the people and car are gone. Also, Bella has gotten in a couple "fence fights" with one of our neighbors dogs (they both bark, the hair on her back is up, but the fence is between them) and the one time the pups were out Daisy ran but Duke got right up there with her and started barking his "mean" puppy bark.

How do those of us just starting to look into clubs know if a club will be OK with people participating just for fun or if they want you focused on getting titles? Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if Duke had the drive to get titles and if he does I'd put in the effort on the handling side so he could. But if he never gets the drive I still think he's the type that this might be a fun "hobby" for him.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

get him out and about, even if you carry him to the shopping cart for the pet store (I did that with jaxson and jenna when she was still here). I carted them around the store. Socialization is very important at a young age. Much harder to socialize when they're 4-5 months old and are afraid of everything. Even though he might be fine at your house, I bet if you were to take him somewhere unfamiliar, he mostly likely wouldn't be overly confident as he's not been exposed to it. 

Visit the club a couple times without your dog. Listen, watch, see if there is someone there you can connect with and ask questions


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

Just go out to a training day and meet and talk with the people. I'm pretty sure there are at least two clubs right around Dallas, maybe more.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

At his age, I would let him win at tug every time. If you want to build his determination and work ethic to tug, make him work harder to catch the tug, and make him tug longer before you let him win. Making him give up the tug, even sometimes, at this early age may impact his grip later on.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: mmarie If a dog doesn't do well on the evaluation, might they still enjoy the beginning of the training but just not be competitive (due to not having a deep bite or whatever reason)?


I'm going to save you a lot of nervous worry by telling you now the vast majority of dogs and handlers are nowhere near competitive.







Sure they get titles but competitive? Nahhhhhhhh







You will run into many folks who have a false sense of competitiveness (these people are not fun to train with) but in reality it takes a special dog that most will never own and a handler with a solid mentor/experience to be truly competitive. So no worries. Go find a club that doesn't focus on club reputation but instead welcomes anyone who loves their dog and works together as a team to encourage you and your dog to be the best you and your dog can be. Then have fun!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

What part of CA?


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## Karla_Calderon (May 15, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: jesusica
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: mmarie If a dog doesn't do well on the evaluation, might they still enjoy the beginning of the training but just not be competitive (due to not having a deep bite or whatever reason)?
> ...


Well said Jessica! And a savvy well intuitive piece of advise.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all the advice! I really appreciate everyone's help, and I'm going to try to make sure I answer everyone so I can continue getting more help!

Angela,
We have brought him out to a couple different houses of people we know and he is always great and adventurous. Their vet is at PetSmart, and he doesn't even fear that place yet. I would like to be able to carry him around out and about with us, but he has been too big for that pretty much from the start! As soon as he gets his last set of shots next week though he will be out with us as many places as I can take him.

Lucia,
I don't *not* let him win by refusing to let him have it, usually it's because he gives up after not very long. I know this doesn't say great things about his drive, but we've been working on building that up. I don't think it helps much that they're hesitant about toys because Bella doesn't like to share. We're working on building it up though, but from now on it will be moreso from working to get the tug and I'll let him win as much as I can.









Jesusica,
You hit the nail right on the head! Thank you thank you, I feel so much better about getting into this with Duke. I was very worried that since he's not from a strong working background and he may never be good enough to get a title that we'd be laughed right out of the clubs!

Sue,
Southern California--we're in Lake Elsinore (Riverside county) but we're from Orange County so heading up there for a club would work out as well.

Again, thanks everyone! All help and imput is appreciated *so* much.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Unfortunately many clubs out there would laugh at a dog like yours.







Those are the clubs that aren't any fun to train with anyways, the ones with a false sense of competitiveness. Not worth your time. If you run into one of those clubs don't feel any less worthy of schutzhund. Find another club.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Mindy, jesusica is right about most people and clubs not being competitive. That is the kind of club I belong to, one that is focused on people wanting to learn and have fun: I've been learning and having a ton of fun with my mixed breed from the shelter. My goal is to get a SchH title, but neither of us may live long enough before that happens







In the meantime, I have an endurance test certificate, a BH, an Obedience 1 and a Tracking 1 on her, and am fully addicted to training, and learning tons and tons. So not even necessary to have a pure-bred German shepherd, as long as you have a dog that has the right temperament and an owner that has a fun and positive attitude.

I started out with the intent of finding a training venue for my mixed-breed rescue, with absolutely NO intention of titling or trialing, EVER, and errrr. . . . my goals sorta changed along the way.









For building drive and grip for Duke, I would suggest that you stop the game before he gives up. If that means only a very, very short session of tugging and him winning, that is what you want to start with. Always let him win! Don't go to where he starts to doubt himself - right now, if he gives up the tug, it is because you are tugging too much, and he thinks that YOU want to have the tug, and being a good boy, he doesn't want to challenge you for it. So let him win, praise him like crazy!!! Always stop the game when he wants more. This is frustration in a good way, this will help build his drive. 

The best thing you can do to help build Duke's drive is to go out to a club and talk to people that can give you pointers on how to work with him.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: jesusicaUnfortunately many clubs out there would laugh at a dog like yours.


Sadly, that is sort of what I figured would be the sentiment about my area.

Anybody from southern California have suggestions on clubs that will be open for a newcomer to start participating in? And clubs to avoid?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

That is why I like OG indy. All levels there, all suportive members not matter what level - egos not welcome 

True club, done for sport, people handling own dogs, learning from each other, honest about their dogs and having fun. People willling to teach, explain, help just for the sport. People training and titling their own dogs.

Two other clubs that I have seen like that: Menlo Park in CA and Volunteer SCH club below Nashville TN. 

Few and far between


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