# Prong during desensitization - does this make sense to you guys?



## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi guys,

It's been some time since I've been around this forum.  Due to lack of socialization (only met a few play pals) plus a few past negative experiences with some other dogs (tried to attack our dog), our dog became dog reactive.
So before taking him to a trainer, we have tried to use high value treats and redirection to get his focus whenever we saw another dog, but maybe around 2 months passed and things only got worse. Due to our lack of knowledge, we went to a trainer. He suggested us to try the training collars, and he was not convinced when I've tried to suggest him some positive methods, so in the end we gave the choke/prong a try.

So long story short... our dog became reactive towards other dogs since he feels unsure of the dogs he never met before. He would go to them and act controlling, while he's unsure of the situation.
We've tried desensitization through gradual approach to another dog, by reinforcing the good or neutral reactions and correcting the bad reactions with pinch, while in the end we would allow interaction between the dogs (with the other dog being friendly and calm) - for easier reference in this topic, I'll call this the gradual approach method.
We've done this method a few times, and it was working, since in the end our dog ended up understanding that the other dog is actually good and doesn't need to feel unsure about it (instead of only repressing the reactivity, we allowed interactions to cure the underlying insecurity). He even began to feel safer and more positive towards other dogs he sees in the training camp, even thought he didn't meet them.

But then before the training could successfully cure the underlying insecurity, our trainer ended up focusing more on repressing the reactivity rather than allowing more interactions.
After a while, since the training wasn't helping anymore, and then there were things I couldn't agree with the trainer (he can be unnecessarily harsh and too harsh sometimes), I've decided to quit the trainings.

After thinking for a while, I think that we should still try the gradual approach method, but instead of using pinch collar for corrections, we would use distancing as punishment (since approaching and interacting with the other dog is what is most rewarding for our dog). I'm considering to contact a positive trainer to see if we can do this kind of training, since I can't do the distancing part without a controlled training environment (outside the other dogs are in constant movement and reactive as well). I've heard that this trainer does allow play time (after reactivity being improved).


But what I wanted to ask you guys is, does the gradual approach method make sense to you?

I'm asking this coz I've been arguing with a few people who does not support prong, and it seems that they can't understand how it can successfully help in desensitization exercises. I've explained a lot of times that it works since we are not just repressing the reactivity but also reinforcing the good reactions plus allowing final interactions (which is the real cure for the underlying insecurity that fuels the reactivity), but I'm being told for a few good times that incorporating a prong only makes dog associate the presence of other dogs as corrections, and not able to teach the dog that it was them reacting that gets them corrected.
I've explained to them that there's a difference between only correcting and correcting for whatever reason every time we see another dog, and only correcting whenever he reacts while we reinforce and allow final interaction, but to no avail.

I've been wondering if the misunderstanding between me and these people was coz the gradual approach method with corrections incorporated is not something usual or if I didn't explain it well, so I wonder if you guys can share what you think, since in this forum, the views of prong is more balanced and not viewing it as some kind of old school harsh torture device.

Also, did any of you do something similar?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Gradual desensitization makes a lot of sense. I was not able to fully get the dog comfortable with other dogs that way but it went a long way and took a lot of time. 

I did desensitization first no prong. And rewarded good behaviors, ignored bad and slowly decreased the comfort zone. The distancing approach you suggested. I did not expect this dog to have close up interactions or play with other dogs, just behave around them and not freak out. It seemed we made good progress until the other dog was a few feet away then stalled at that distance.

I did, then, use the prong after the same dog became fluent in attention and heeling excercises and taught him those, later using the prong to correct non compliance (breaking eye contact with me). Then walking him past other dogs....we slowly decreased the difference and I always put him into an obedience routine. Never expecting interaction. Actually I do that with my current young dog who has zero fear or reactive issues. I want him to not find other dogs interesting.

My understanding with using the prong to correct reactivity once the dog has already reacted is that he is already in drive and all that will do is make it worse if he is a strong dog or shut him down if he is a weak one and reinforce his attitude that other dogs are bad and not fix anything. It may look good on the surface but does not cure anything.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> My understanding with using the prong to correct reactivity once the dog has already reacted is that he is already in drive and all that will do is make it worse if he is a strong dog or shut him down if he is a weak one and reinforce his attitude that other dogs are bad and not fix anything. It may look good on the surface but does not cure anything.


What a nightmare to be going through with your dog. I'm sorry to hear about the negative things that have happened. 

I agree with was jocoyn has posted ... especially what I "quoted." You need to be careful because you're not sure what you are doing, and you could make it worse. 

It's very difficult for someone on here to give you advice regarding aggression - we can't see the dog's behaviour / how you are handling the dog ... so to give advice could be detrimental. 

I would suggest ... if possible, finding another trainer (SIGH ... I know I know!!!) It's not easy, and sometimes it's a step or two backwards. I went through three or four trainers with my first dog before I found someone I really liked. 

Hopefully someone will be able to point you in the right direction for a solid trainer. 

Good luck,


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Gradual desensitization makes a lot of sense. I was not able to fully get the dog comfortable with other dogs that way but it went a long way and took a lot of time.
> 
> I did desensitization first no prong. And rewarded good behaviors, ignored bad and slowly decreased the comfort zone. The distancing approach you suggested. I did not expect this dog to have close up interactions or play with other dogs, just behave around them and not freak out. It seemed we made good progress until the other dog was a few feet away then stalled at that distance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing.  Did you only introduce the prong after the dog is used to another dogs' presence, so that he wouldn't associate the corrections with other dogs presence?

About the last paragraph, would you still think that it wouldn't work if we are only correcting low to mild reactivity (like growling, tense glares or pulling), while not allowing reactivity to escalate more than this by controlling the distance? Wouldn't it work if the reactivity is not very high and we correct it with the proper intensity?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Woolf is FA. He is on a prong, only corrections given is for non-compliance, _never_ for reacting to a dog. If he is reacting to a dog, I didn't do my job and redirect him before it escalates. At that point I need to move him back, regroup and start again. What I do is at the first sign of tension, whether it is a hard stare, ears up and forward, mouth closing or just body tensing up; we go into an obedience routine. It's kept fun and he is kept moving, command is given, if he doesn't comply then a correction is given. This is a dog that at 100 ft went ballistic at seeing a dog, to now 10 ft is normal before reacting and in some cases now is meeting dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am in synch with Twyla's response.

If you are at the point where reactivity is occurring I think you need to back up to comfort zone where it is not. The obedience was made firm in the absence of other dogs first. I am fortunate in not having to deal with this for a number of years, too...........so I am sure there has been some loss of my memory on this topic over time.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Twyla said:


> Woolf is FA. He is on a prong, only corrections given is for non-compliance, _never_ for reacting to a dog. If he is reacting to a dog, I didn't do my job and redirect him before it escalates. At that point I need to move him back, regroup and start again. What I do is at the first sign of tension, whether it is a hard stare, ears up and forward, mouth closing or just body tensing up; we go into an obedience routine. It's kept fun and he is kept moving, command is given, if he doesn't comply then a correction is given. This is a dog that at 100 ft went ballistic at seeing a dog, to now 10 ft is normal before reacting and in some cases now is meeting dogs.


What is FA? 

But what if he goes into a tense state and you can't have his attention to the obedience routine, wouldn't the correction for non-compliance ending up correcting the reaction too?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Fear agression.

The minute tha dog breaks eye contact he needs to be corrected. If he goes into a tense state he has gone too far. That is why I would close the comfort zone first with NO corrections......using obedience and corrections is in my opinion later. 

Find someone good to help you. Someone who can actually see the dog and what is going on. Hard to do over the internet. 

You can get to the point with a positive only trainer to where you are making no more progress with desensitization -- then go to the next step, which you may not even need....depends on the dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

People always say you can't coddle a dog when they are fearful (though there are ways you can do it because anxiety/fear can't be rewarded), and no one would ever suggest correcting a dog who is afraid of something like thunder, because you also can't correct anxiety/fear, so just remember that. Once your dog is fearful, has gone over threshold, and you correct them, they are too far gone to register it. That idea of slapping a hysterical person is often cited - snaps them out of it - but what that does is make the hysterical person more afraid of the slapper than of the other thing they were afraid of.  If you've ever been afraid of something, or have a phobia or fear of anything, you can use that as a helpful guide.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

But do you guys think that what I've described in the gradual approach method in the first topic wouldn't work then?

But then why did it work out in our case? Why did my dog end up feeling more secure towards other dogs after a few sessions? Also, with gradual approach we kept the reactivity low so that the corrections never really escalated nor scared the dog. And it was not just about corrections - the gradual approach and final interaction are rewards for reacting neutrally or even positively.

I know that there are better methods and distancing is a better punishment for reactivity than prong, but what I wanted with this topic is to hear from you guys are the reasons of why you would think that this particular method wouldn't work and why would you think that it worked out.

(I hope that I'm not sounding rude here, I really just want to hear about more opinions, and well... English is not my first language, so I'm not sure if the way I write might sound rude or anything)


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Fear agression.
> 
> The minute tha dog breaks eye contact he needs to be corrected. If he goes into a tense state he has gone too far. That is why I would close the comfort zone first with NO corrections......using obedience and corrections is in my opinion later.
> 
> ...


Currently I'm thinking about contacting a positive trainer without using prong collar, since I think that other ways such as distancing for punishment would be better for desensitization.

So what you meant was that during the desensitization by gradual approach, you would do obedience training and the moment the dog breaks focus you would correct; but if the dog reacts to another dog by tensing the body and looking, you would simply walk away (distancing)? So that the prong correction has nothing to do with the other dog at all, since it's not even for reacting to the other dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Before I did the obedience with the prong I got him as close as possible first and just rewarded anything good ignored anything bad and removed him from the situation. The prong (later) had nothing to do with the other dog.

I am one person who had a fear reactive dog. That is my own personal experience. This is something that requires an expert and whoever you work with I would get references and talk with them! A lot of folks may give you advice on the internet but you never know how experienced they truly are. Going through this with one dog does not make me an expert by any stretch.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> People always say you can't coddle a dog when they are fearful (though there are ways you can do it because anxiety/fear can't be rewarded), and no one would ever suggest correcting a dog who is afraid of something like thunder, because you also can't correct anxiety/fear, so just remember that. Once your dog is fearful, has gone over threshold, and you correct them, they are too far gone to register it. That idea of slapping a hysterical person is often cited - snaps them out of it - but what that does is make the hysterical person more afraid of the slapper than of the other thing they were afraid of.  If you've ever been afraid of something, or have a phobia or fear of anything, you can use that as a helpful guide.


Yeah that makes sense.  My dog was afraid of fireworks, and once he was really having panic attacks! Of course in that moment, and in any moment he is afraid and wants to escape, I wouldn't even think of correcting. I'd prefer to think of ways to make him calm down or feel safe. The good thing is that he's a strong boy, and that night he recovered pretty fast. 

About slapping the hysterical person example, I think that it depends, what if the person is only staring and tensing and I just shake him a bit to get his attention again? It's certainly not the same as someone who is screaming crazy. So what about when I'm just correcting low/mild reactions such as growling and pulling the lead a bit?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

sheep said:


> What is FA?
> 
> But what if he goes into a tense state and you can't have his attention to the obedience routine, wouldn't the correction for non-compliance ending up correcting the reaction too?


FA = Fear Aggressive

Having a good ground work in obedience first makes a huge difference. First working on it without distractions, then building on it under increasing distraction, finally at a distance working on his obedience in the presence of dogs. I placed the first priority on focus, sit and down. As we moved closer, heel was added. Once we were at a distance I knew he was normally comfortable at (he had been proofed several times) commands were given, if not obeyed, correction given. 

If Woolf is reacting, he isn't going to hear a command given, he is off in his zone. That is why it is so important to watch his body language and at the _*first*_ sign I get his complete focus with the obedience routine. If I miss it, I move him back a distance and start again, no correction is given.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Twyla said:


> FA = Fear Aggressive
> 
> Having a good ground work in obedience first makes a huge difference. First working on it without distractions, then building on it under increasing distraction, finally at a distance working on his obedience in the presence of dogs. I placed the first priority on focus, sit and down. As we moved closer, heel was added. Once we were at a distance I knew he was normally comfortable at (he had been proofed several times) commands were given, if not obeyed, correction given.
> 
> If Woolf is reacting, he isn't going to hear a command given, he is off in his zone. That is why it is so important to watch his body language and at the _*first*_ sign I get his complete focus with the obedience routine. If I miss it, I move him back a distance and start again, no correction is given.


That makes sense, and seems like a good plan.  Actually, if it was not for the reactivity, I wouldn't have used the prong. I do find prong corrections acceptable if done properly and not by old school harsh style, but I always preferred to not use any extra tools besides leash, unless necessary or really helpful, and I also preferred less physical corrections.

I wish that my old school trainer could have done it the way you've described at least. The way I've described worked too, but it would have been even better if we have worked on obedience first without doing desensitizing right away when my dog didn't even warm up with the prong yet. It worked since there were positive rewards and interactions, but it could have not worked and the dog truly associated the prong corrections with another dog. The way you've described is much safer for this, as well as dealing with reactivity. *sigh* But well, one must always keep learning!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

sheep said:


> Yeah that makes sense.  My dog was afraid of fireworks, and once he was really having panic attacks! Of course in that moment, and in any moment he is afraid and wants to escape, I wouldn't even think of correcting. I'd prefer to think of ways to make him calm down or feel safe. The good thing is that he's a strong boy, and that night he recovered pretty fast.
> 
> About slapping the hysterical person example, I think that it depends, what if the person is only staring and tensing and I just shake him a bit to get his attention again? It's certainly not the same as someone who is screaming crazy. So what about when I'm just correcting low/mild reactions such as growling and pulling the lead a bit?


So if we wouldn't consider correcting for that fear why do we for the fear of another dog? I know some of why I have - because I want my dog to shut up so that the other dog doesn't lock on him and decide, heh, I am going to bite that scaredy dog! So I am saying this as someone who A. has a dog reactive dog and B. is still learning and trying (and not great at it AT ALL!). So I am with you in the learning. 

However, I had a human reactive dog in the first dog of my own. I am much more comfortable with this (because I rarely had to worry that as my dog was growling and hackling at a human, that the human would see him, go tense, and run at him, starting a fight that I would have to break up).  I took him to a trainer, this was early 90's, still in the Koehler days, but this guy, who raised and trained Rottweilers, encouraged me to use my human psychology on my dog. 

So, before my dog would rev up, instead of giving him that "slap" he said to use an emotional conflicter - a word or phrase that always meant something good to my dog to snap him out of it - it had to be timed well (before the behavior starts really) or it wouldn't work, but when I employed it properly, it was 100% effective and INCREDIBLY cool to see! So we'd be going along and I would see someone (man) and see my dog start to square up, and would say something like want a piece of cheese? And my dog would say cheese? For real? And I'd say yeah, I got cheese and start doing obedience and moving the dog to his comfort zone and the man would be gone and the dog would be happy because every time he'd see a guy, he'd get cheese. 

Once he was no longer fearful of men, he would still square up and challenge them, but without a preemptive display, because he was coming from a place of confidence (and cheese  ) and he really, really wanted to get into it with someone.  But anyway, that's the alternative to the slap.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How old is this dog? How long has this been going on? I am not averse to using prongs but I also believe that some dogs just don't like other dogs and are not meant to be constantly interacting with them. This could be such a dog. I would use the prong for compliance and control with YOU but not necessarily for attempting to force compliance around another dog, if that makes sense? If your dog starts reacting to the other dog, IMO the answer is that he's already over his threshold. He's too close to the other dog and needs some space is all. Now you should be able to walk him down the street and quickly pass other dogs without reactions (using the prong to keep him in compliance with you) but without seeing this dog or knowing his age or history I would err on the side of saying just work on obedience and don't worry about him being able to actually interact with other dogs.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So if we wouldn't consider correcting for that fear why do we for the fear of another dog? I know some of why I have - because I want my dog to shut up so that the other dog doesn't lock on him and decide, heh, I am going to bite that scaredy dog! So I am saying this as someone who A. has a dog reactive dog and B. is still learning and trying (and not great at it AT ALL!). So I am with you in the learning.
> 
> However, I had a human reactive dog in the first dog of my own. I am much more comfortable with this (because I rarely had to worry that as my dog was growling and hackling at a human, that the human would see him, go tense, and run at him, starting a fight that I would have to break up).  I took him to a trainer, this was early 90's, still in the Koehler days, but this guy, who raised and trained Rottweilers, encouraged me to use my human psychology on my dog.
> 
> ...


That's nice to hear!  I'm glad that there were trainers that were creative for alternate methods. I wish that mine could have figured out different ways! Actually, when our trainer started to focus too much on repressing, things were not going well anymore, and we've tried to explain it to him. We also explained to him that if the distance is too short and the reactivity is too high, our corrections would only worsen the reactivity, but he couldn't understand it. He couldn't coz he can break any reactivity level of course, although we also didn't like that coz when you break a high level reactivity, your dog will cower in fear after, which never happened with lower corrections.
Actually, we ended up doing things our own way after a while, like whenever our dog passes by other dogs during walks, we would forgive a few growls and simply only encourage him to walk forward. This was actually much better.  (our trainer would have said that we should be firm and so on... *sigh* )

But anyways, if everything goes well, we will be with a positive trainer that does allow more dog to dog interactions.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It may be that you just work on the dog ignoring other dogs. Honestly, my two working dogs with zero issues in the doggy socializtion department are expected to ignore, not interact with, other dogs. I am the source of their interaction (or each other as part of the family) ..... Dogs really have no social need to interact closely with other dogs.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Liesje said:


> How old is this dog? How long has this been going on? I am not averse to using prongs but I also believe that some dogs just don't like other dogs and are not meant to be constantly interacting with them. This could be such a dog. I would use the prong for compliance and control with YOU but not necessarily for attempting to force compliance around another dog, if that makes sense? If your dog starts reacting to the other dog, IMO the answer is that he's already over his threshold. He's too close to the other dog and needs some space is all. Now you should be able to walk him down the street and quickly pass other dogs without reactions (using the prong to keep him in compliance with you) but without seeing this dog or knowing his age or history I would err on the side of saying just work on obedience and don't worry about him being able to actually interact with other dogs.


Our dog is currently 17 months old.  Hmm I'd say that his reactivity appeared around April/May of this year, and then we went to a trainer after maybe 2 months of attempting to fix the issue by ourselves.

We don't really force him to interact, although in the training sessions we ended up forcing him to walk and sit next to reacting dogs (when passing by other people's fenced houses) when the trainer focused more on repressing than socializing (the more I think about it, the more I feel like banging my head on the wall).

The good thing is, he does have interest in socializing with other dogs, but his initial posture is of uncertainty, so he reacts in a mean way since he perceives other dogs as potential threats. During the gradual approach, we allowed him to approach slowly but corrected any negative reaction (it's like saying "you can approach but don't be mean!"), and in the end allowed him to interact with another dog when he's calmer, and he ends up realizing how the other dog meant to be friendly. This is when he would really feel safer, although he might still not get the other dog's language completely (he was separated from his litter mates and mom a bit earlier due to parvo).

Actually, we've tried to socialize him to one or two neighbor dogs, but since he was tense, it made the other dog insecure so they both ended up being tense and the interaction did not succeed. I have faith that if we find him calm and friendly dogs, then he would eventually feel safer and safer again. For example, Turid Rugaas used her dog to help other dogs to regain their native language. It would be great if my dog could learn how to interact properly again.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sheep said:


> Actually, when our trainer started to focus too much on repressing, things were not going well anymore, and we've tried to explain it to him.


Yeah, that's the problem with repressing behavior - all you're doing is .... repressing it, you're not actually fixing it. If you can get to the root cause and work on that, then it's going to go away because there's no need for it anymore, as in the situation that Jean describes. If he's reacting out of fear, and you can change that emotional response to the presence of other dogs from fear to happy anticipation through counter-conditioning with "good stuff", then the reactivity will stop. It can be a long, slow process however.

Not all reactivity is based in fear, though. Keefer will sometimes react to other dogs when he's on leash, but off leash he's a social butterfly. He gets excited when he sees other dogs that he wants to meet, and then frustrated when he can't because of the leash. If he's up close and personal with another dog and he's on leash, he's fine, he's more llikely to react when they're at a distance. With him, I have no problem using a prong to get him to snap out of it if he's staring at another dog - staring is a huge trigger for many dogs, and either he'll start barking if allowed to stare too long, or the other dog will go off and then he reacts to that. 

At first I was concerned that using an aversive would make his reactivity worse, but since it's not based in fear there has been no fallout whatsoever, and as it turns out, he's extremely resilient to corrections. With a fearful or insecure dog I would use other methods, but it's made a huge difference with Keef, he's about 1/10 as bad as he used to be, and walking him is now pleasant. 

Halo can also be snarky on leash, but she's a confident little ! :wild: Definitely NO fear there at all, and off leash she really doesn't care about other dogs, especially if there's a ball, they're just obstacles to run around if they're in her way. She's much easier to distract to prevent a reaction than Keefer is, especially with neutral or friendly dogs. She's more likely to react to out of control dogs who give her the stink eye, or are barking or straining towards her - she seems to think it's fair game if they start it, lol! So for her too, I'll use a prong to basically tell her to knock it off if I need to, but most of the time I don't.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does he need to interact with other dogs? Like what is the end goal? I can understand he needs to behave around other dogs (group sit or down in obedience class, being able to heel on the sidewalk if another dog comes past, etc) but if he is showing nerve and confidence issues around other dogs then to me this says he is uncomfortable, so I would work on his confidence elsewhere instead of pressing this issue and making it worse. These "desensitization"/flooding methods have such a very fine line between success and disaster, IMO it's just not worth it. Build up his confidence and obedience in an environment where he feels secure and then slowly close the distance around other dogs (I'm talking like a football field's distance at first). If he shows insecure behavior then it's too close for him. Personally I've had much more success working the dog at the distance where he feels secure and confident rather than trying to convince him to feel confident when he doesn't.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

It's not really necessary for him to interact with other dogs, although he would be much happier if he could have a few friends to meet with.  I wouldn't say that it's exactly fear, it's more like the kind of uncertainty/insecurity towards other dogs. He wants to approach them, but then it's not sure if they are friends or foes. If he can perceive the other dog's friendliness, then he would start to be friendly too, but if he can't feel it, he would start growling, barking, and get all tensed up and go in front of the other dog.

The good thing is that he is very confident, but we need the right dogs that are calm or playful, and mostly friendly and not intimidated by his barks for interaction sessions.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is not necessarily true that he would be much happier with doggy friends. Even my fear agressive dog did fine when slowly and properly introduced to a new family member (dog) and they were very close but outside of the immediate family "pack" dogs don't seem to have the same needs for a broad social circle as do humans. 

What you are describing though does not sound confident. As stated dogs can be agressive out of fear or out of being just a bully. Most are simply fearful so that is the best bet and why an expert needs to actually see the dog to determine as the approach will be different.

My dog was the demo dog at a Trish King (a US expert on this) and we did an abandonment test to help determine and it became VERY clear the dog was reacting out of fear. I would not do anything like that without someone knowledgeable but it was revealing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> My dog was the demo dog at a Trish King (a US expert on this) and we did an abandonment test to help determine and it became VERY clear the dog was reacting out of fear. I would not do anything like that without someone knowledgeable but it was revealing.


Yes, that's who we worked with on Cassidy's reactivity! The abandonment training was like magic for her. 

I agree with Nancy regarding confidence and insecurity - insecure dogs are not exhibiting confidence. Confident dogs don't tend to be insecure.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Is this dog the same dog as the other dog you are asking about?


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> It is not necessarily true that he would be much happier with doggy friends. Even my fear agressive dog did fine when slowly and properly introduced to a new family member (dog) and they were very close but outside of the immediate family "pack" dogs don't seem to have the same needs for a broad social circle as do humans.
> 
> What you are describing though does not sound confident. As stated dogs can be agressive out of fear or out of being just a bully. Most are simply fearful so that is the best bet and why an expert needs to actually see the dog to determine as the approach will be different.
> 
> My dog was the demo dog at a Trish King (a US expert on this) and we did an abandonment test to help determine and it became VERY clear the dog was reacting out of fear. I would not do anything like that without someone knowledgeable but it was revealing.


I wouldn't say much happier, he certainly can live without socializing with other people or dogs, but it's a kind of an extra that would make him happy from time to time, like going with our dogs to the beach or doing some extra activity.  We used to let him run free with another neighbor's dog back then when he was younger, and he was so happy with it... But we couldn't do that anymore (we moved away and now that he's dog reactive, letting him off leash is a big no).

When I said he is confident, it was more about his personality. His reactivity is clearly due to insecurity and unsureness.

By the way, I think that I've heard of the abandonment test somewhere but can't remember well... Can you tell me about it?


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Is this dog the same dog as the other dog you are asking about?


What do you mean?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Is this a different dog or is it your dog you are describing?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/195174-can-you-explain-behavior.html

This is her material on abandonment training. I am sure there are nuances but you can google Trish KIng and probably find all you want.
Abandonment Training (Trish King)


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Is this a different dog or is it your dog you are describing?
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/195174-can-you-explain-behavior.html
> 
> This is her material on abandonment training. I am sure there are nuances but you can google Trish KIng and probably find all you want.
> Abandonment Training (Trish King)


No no, they are different dogs, the other one is not mine and I was the guest. 

Thanks for the link!


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I've found this:

http://www.positivelytrained.com/edu_resources/Abandonment_Training.pdf

Is this the Abandonment Training you are talking about?? It seems insane! Although I can see the logic here. I wonder how my dog would do with this method... He would run to the trigger and he seems to forget about our existence (we never tried to run away of course).

The method I've heard before is a it different, it was about having the dog tied to a tree, and if he reacts to a dog passing by, both the dog and the owner would walk away and leave him there. I can't remember where I've read that thought.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok when we did it with her (and she is from Marin Humane Society) we had two people and two leads because the fearful dog will realize you are not there to back them up and look to escape. THe rank agressive dog will start the fight so you need a way to prevent that. I really think you need to do this kind of stuff with someone who knows. The tree tie out is a test......from what I know.......which I have said is limited to personal experience. 

Time to find someone, a trainer who has good references, to actually help you with this.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Ok when we did it with her (and she is from Marin Humane Society) we had two people and two leads because the fearful dog will realize you are not there to back them up and look to escape. THe rank agressive dog will start the fight so you need a way to prevent that. I really think you need to do this kind of stuff with someone who knows. The tree tie out is a test......from what I know.......which I have said is limited to personal experience.
> 
> Time to find someone, a trainer who has good references, to actually help you with this.


Yeah I actually contacted a positive trainer already.  Now I'm just waiting for the reply, hopefully we can get a transparent check on the methods as well as going to see how the classes are before we start. The previous trainer didn't allow us to see a class first and he was also vague in what he intended to do (he said that each dog is different so he couldn't tell what method we would use).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

When we did it, Trish held the long line, and we had Cassidy on her regular 6 foot leash, so when we threw the leash at her back, she was still under control via the long line. There was a 3rd person there in charge of bringing the bait dog into view (one of Trish's own dogs actually, that she said she used with reactive dogs all the time because Ariel read other dogs very well) from around a corner across the field from where we were. 

In 5 or 6 tries and a period of about 20 minutes we went from Cassidy reacting to Ariel as soon as she came into sight on the other side of the field (a large grassy area that they use for agility classes), to being able to walk them towards each other and past, with about 3 feet between them, and NO reaction. 

I agree with Nancy though, you don't want to try it on your own if you only have a vague idea of the concept - it worked so well with us because we had a skilled and knowledgeable trainer directing us.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> When we did it, Trish held the long line, and we had Cassidy on her regular 6 foot leash, so when we threw the leash at her back, she was still under control via the long line. There was a 3rd person there in charge of bringing the bait dog into view (one of Trish's own dogs actually, that she said she used with reactive dogs all the time because Ariel read other dogs very well) from around a corner across the field from where we were.
> 
> In 5 or 6 tries and a period of about 20 minutes we went from Cassidy reacting to Ariel as soon as she came into sight on the other side of the field (a large grassy area that they use for agility classes), to being able to walk them towards each other and past, with about 3 feet between them, and NO reaction.
> 
> I agree with Nancy though, you don't want to try it on your own if you only have a vague idea of the concept - it worked so well with us because we had a skilled and knowledgeable trainer directing us.


And this kind of fast result beats the myth that positive methods necessarily takes centuries to get results.  For this trainer to have come up with this method, she must be very knowledgeable about how aggression really works, and she's also understanding of dogs and not just focusing on getting results without thinking much of the dog's emotional state.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Trish was the Director of Behavior and Training at the Marin Humane Society, she's since retired. She's written at least one book, and does seminars around the country. 

Keep in mind that this technique, or any technique for that matter, still needs to be generalized to a variety of different dogs in a variety of different situations, the behavior is not just suddenly "fixed" that quickly, but we were very surprised at the dramatic results. 

And this particular technique wouldn't be suited for all dogs, it just happened that Cassidy was pretty much the textbook dog for abandonment training - as Trish said about Cassidy, she really "gets it". This session that I described above was an initial evaluation that was required to get into the Difficult Dog class at MHS.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> When we did it, Trish held the long line, and we had Cassidy on her regular 6 foot leash, so when we threw the leash at her back, she was still under control via the long line.


I should mention that while we walked Cassidy forward, Trish was off to the side and ahead of us, so she had a good view of Cassidy's face and could pick up very subtle signals that we could not see from our angle walking next to her. Timing is very important, you need to catch the dog AFTER they've noticed the trigger, but BEFORE the reaction. When we worked with Trish she actually cued us as to when we needed to throw the leash and bail, by saying "go". 

The more you can observe your dog and learn to recognize the signs that he's about to blow, the better - you can't work under threshold if you're not sure exactly where the threshold is. Once you do, you can start to change that threshold through counter-conditioning and desensitization.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks for sharing this, I can sort of picture the method, but I wish that I could observe in the real life to understand it better.  I've been checking Trish King's blog and only have read a few posts, but so far I'm becoming a fan.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you can find someone who can help you through this that would be great. I went to the seminar but when we went back the trainer I went with, it just wasn't the same (she was new to the method) and we could work up to about 10 feet. I did close the final gap with the obedience as discussed above but only for necessary closeness (sometimes you just can't avoid dogs but he was not taken to petsmart or dog events etc...as it stressed him and why do that)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

sheep said:


> But then why did it work out in our case? Why did my dog end up feeling more secure towards other dogs after a few sessions?


What was the context here? Was this in a group class where you saw the same dogs every week?


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> What was the context here? Was this in a group class where you saw the same dogs every week?


The classes that were for dealing with the reactivity were individual classes (with another dog for helping), although he would still see some other dog students coming or going at the training camp at the beginning or the end of our individual classes. Some of them we see often, some we never saw before.
Our trainer also provided a few sessions in which we walk together along with another student dogs.

Also, he would have our dog walk pass reacting dogs that are inside of fenced yards, sometimes too closely in order to train our dogs to not to react to them (which in this case I think that it's not a really good thing to do).

After seeing our dog reacting much less, and that he even showed friendliness towards some dogs in the training camp whether he had met or not (which is the product of the gradual approach as there were interactions, and not the product of forcing him sitting next to other dogs but not allowing interaction and only focused on punishing any reaction), we started group classes.

Since the training was not helping him to improve his confidence in other dogs anymore (since we've started to worry more about repressing, and then in the group classes we would do the same exercises regardless the progress of each dog), we decided to drop them. We don't agree with a lot of the trainer's ideas anyways. Now I'm contacting a positive trainer that would not need to use physical punishment and that really allows more dog-to-dog interactions, which is what he really needs and not just repressing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sheep said:


> Also, he would have our dog walk pass reacting dogs that are inside of fenced yards, sometimes too closely in order to train our dogs to not to react to them (which in this case I think that it's not a really good thing to do).


I agree - not a good thing. It would be much better to work a reactive dog around dogs that are neutral and can be relied upon NOT to react. The only exception to that would be in a reactive dog class, where of course all the dogs would be reactive to some degree. The difference is that in a class, the situation is very closely controlled as all the dogs are actively being worked with, not just allowed to bark out of control. Trying to work on reactivity by walking past fenced yards containing dogs that are going nuts is counter-productive. Even a dog that's fine around most other dogs might react to that!


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