# WUSV - Has a showline won over working lines



## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

I always see Schutzhund titles on showline shepherds and got to thinking...has one ever won the WUSV or another national/international event, beating out working line shepherds?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I believe the last meaningful win for a showline dog at a performance event was 'V'Cliff Hühnegrab's 2nd place finish at the 1989 Bundessiegerprüfung. He was 7th in 88 and 3rd in 87. He failed tracking at the only WUSV event he attended.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Okay, thank you Lisa. I'm still learning about the different lines and important dogs that pertain to them. When looking at the different pedigrees, you see a lot of titles. Looking at them with inexperienced eye, they look really nice, BUT more merit is placed at higher level of competition it seems. Many are titled through a SchIII in the pedigrees. Looking at the bigger picture though, with WUSV participation vs. placing they have not done performed as well in the past. Still lots to learn : ) Thanks again!


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## Hundguy (Apr 30, 2003)

Ory vom Zollernblut competed and placed high at National Events here in the US. I think also Universal Sieger a couple times in the late 90's!


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

There are many showline a that will do great at WUSV.
The problem is a showline breeder who owns a V rated dog will not want it to lose against a dog who won't place in the top 100 in s conformation ring. Therefore they won't enter the dog.

Contrary to most belief showlines actually struggle with tracking and not bite work. Trainers constantly correct the dog for sniffing or carrying the head low, because a head held high expresses the withers and top line when gaiting.

Many showline dogs have sch3 but I still think WUSV sport dogs have a good edge since they were more bread for that sport


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Cheryl Nance and Chloe v Bullinger were in the top 10 at the 2013 UScA championships. 

2013 Results


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

d4mmo said:


> The problem is a showline breeder who owns a V rated dog will not want it to lose against a dog who won't place in the top 100 in s conformation ring. Therefore they won't enter the dog.
> 
> Contrary to most belief showlines actually struggle with tracking and not bite work. Trainers constantly correct the dog for sniffing or carrying the head low, because a head held high expresses the withers and top line when gaiting.


I beg to differ on both counts! I've never heard of a show line breeder aspiring to qualify to the WUSV, let alone give the excuse quoted. The WUSV is a Schutzhund trial, not a show so it has nothing to do with losing a Schutzhund event to a dog that they can beat in conformation. What?

Second, I think that is projecting a lot. That is like saying working line dogs who are great at obedience (thus maintaining eye contact and intense focus on their handler) must suck at tracking because they are conflicted between their head up or now. No, not at all. Besides, Schutzhund style tracking really *is* about obedience, it's taking a natural drive and stylizing it quite a lot. I have a V-rated 100% WGSL dog and he is a fantastic tracker. To say that a dog can only be excellent at one thing is really selling dogs short. I have dogs that train and compete in half a dozen different sports. It is TRAINING and dogs are very smart, complex, animals, they know when they are doing protection vs flyball vs conformation ring vs obedience.

A dog I know got a perfect 100 points on a SchH2 track and then the next weekend placed V2 (just 2 years old, second only to a 3 times VA dog). Tracking and conformation...it's not really a big deal.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

The point of the SV show is to pinpoint the dog which is most capable of doing the job the breed was created for, the dogs need to show correct conformation, drive, strength, quality, gait etc. sch is indeed something the breed should excel in. 
Now in the mind of show breeders and judges the va1 dog should beat the working line dog considering they both have the same training.
Hence why many breeders won't subject the show dog to that.

Also not all but many show breeders dont aspire to do wusv due to the SV show being a bigger more recognized competition which there dogs are more suited to, others simply don't care for it as a sch1 title or h1 is all that's needed for breeding.

I participate my dog in showing, tracking and obedience. I am still learning and am being guided by professionals who have been breeding showing and training for 40plus years. They all use a flat collar for obedience, show collar for show, and a harness for tracking. The different collars allow the dog to know which job it is performing.
Most of these guys won't start the dog on tracking, obedience u till 9 months.
The first 9 months is show training and drive building. Sniffing comes more natural to a dog than constantly keeping the head up.

This obviously isn't the case for all trainers, this is what I have been told and shown.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Funny, then any dog eligible for VA should be scoring 5-5 in bitework and putting up national level eligible scores (270+) in trials if a VA rating is for a dog "capable of doing the job" but that is not the case. Sounds like breeders making up excuses. 

I have trained, shown, and trialed with a showline dog. It's not rocket science. I do not train him any differently because he is a "show" dog. I have a high standard that is the same for ALL of my GSDs. I don't need different equipment to cue the dog to what we are doing, he is smart enough to know because of what he has been trained and what he's being presented with on that day.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies :thumbup:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good points.

Interesting parallels between reasons as to why WL folks don't show in conformation and SL folks won't try to compete in the higher levels of IPO.




Liesje said:


> Funny, then any dog eligible for VA should be scoring 5-5 in bitework and putting up national level eligible scores (270+) in trials if a VA rating is for a dog "capable of doing the job" but that is not the case. Sounds like breeders making up excuses.
> 
> I have trained, shown, and trialed with a showline dog. It's not rocket science. I do not train him any differently because he is a "show" dog. I have a high standard that is the same for ALL of my GSDs. I don't need different equipment to cue the dog to what we are doing, he is smart enough to know because of what he has been trained and what he's being presented with on that day.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

d4mmo said:


> There are many showline a that will do great at WUSV.
> The problem is a showline breeder who owns a V rated dog will not want it to lose against a dog who won't place in the top 100 in s conformation ring. Therefore they won't enter the dog.
> 
> Contrary to most belief showlines actually struggle with tracking and not bite work. Trainers constantly correct the dog for sniffing or carrying the head low, because a head held high expresses the withers and top line when gaiting.
> ...


I've yet to have a showline dog impress me when I'm doing helper work on them.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Griff v Temar is a WGSL that has done well:

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=583599-griff-v-temar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmRic3aYxFc


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog used as an example of a show line doing well, VA Griff was inhibited by his conformation.
In the video he was shown running the blinds . It took forever . He didn't cover ground with ease nor speed . Seemed constricted . 
I believe the judge was Elward Mannes who even commented on this at the end when giving the score .

Compare to this dog recently posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQljQbNDDi0

Mannes has been quoted in interviews in preferring a SG dog .


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Speed can be tied to a million different factors; drive state, training variables, temp, etc.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Really good points on this topic. So if their was a showline, that had the right trainer and potential to win...do you all think the dog could win a WUSV in the future? What changes do you think would need to happen for this? From some of the responses, it seems several have gotten close in the past....


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Conversely, how about working dogs that have done well in conformation?


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

nezzz said:


> Conversely, how about working dogs that have done well in conformation?


 
I'd like to know this too. I always here...that's a nice looking dog, but he would come in dead last because he's working lines. This was directed at several wl shepherds I've seen. Really , really nice looking dogs too! Have any placed or won for that matter in the conformation ring?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This was discussed at length in another thread recently. Short answer no working lines have made top ratings in a big SV show in Germany for a really long time.

There are, however, quite a few WLs who have made respectable showings in conformation and ratings (V) in the U.S. And elsewhere.

I'll get the thread and link it here in case you want to read through it. It's pretty long. 





nezzz said:


> Conversely, how about working dogs that have done well in conformation?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/492849-im-not-one-have-you-critique-my-dog-but-please-critique-her-pedigree.html


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Slow with the blinds but...

t I've noticed that the SLs aren't as fast at sprints like the WLs too.

But...what does a dog like Griff v Temar bring to the table which improves on the SLs?

The judge does mention a lot of positives too.

I think that dogs and their handlers like Griff v Temar should be praised and encouraged as well. Out there in broad daylight  competing amongst the WLs...

The reason being by rewarding handlers and breeders for dogs that are closer to the working heritage will encourage more of the same in the future.

I think this sort of thing would go a longer way to a start on closing the SL v WL split.



carmspack said:


> the dog used as an example of a show line doing well, VA Griff was inhibited by his conformation.
> In the video he was shown running the blinds . It took forever . He didn't cover ground with ease nor speed . Seemed constricted .
> I believe the judge was Elward Mannes who even commented on this at the end when giving the score .
> 
> ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Please don't interpret this as me taking sides or making excuses. FWIW I have a WGSL dog, I've had pure working line dogs, and I have a SL/WL cross so I really have no stake in either line, I just like what I like. Anyway, the reason why a WL dog does not do well in a big show like a BSZS is not just that he doesn't fit the "type". Dogs campaigning for VA or high-V ratings at a show like that have not only been shown pretty extensively themselves, but more important they have progeny that are campaigned and placed well. A WL may be a standout, but he has to be producing and showing progeny. I actually have this issue a bit with my WGSL dog. When I show him he gets the rating he deserves but is always at the back of the pack. I do not campaign him regularly and we do not show his progeny. He could be better ring trained for more optimal presentation and I could hire a top handler. He gets a "V" rating and has a breed survey, but if I do not take conformation seriously, he's not going to place and probably doesn't deserve to aside from how I feel about the conformation of the top placing dogs. Dogs earning VA ratings show progeny groups. Now lately it seems all these Sieger shows we are having in the USA are throwing around VA ratings like candy on Halloween, but typically a judge is probably familiar with all the top contenders, has seen them in shows before and has also judged their progeny. For a WL to content, coming in as an underdog, they have to also meet that standard as far as how they have been presented and campaigned. Again, I'm not saying I *agree* with this, but it is what it is. On the flip side, I don't agree with a lot of the current trends in SchH/IPO either.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Slow with the blinds but...
> 
> t I've noticed that the SLs aren't as fast at sprints like the WLs too.
> 
> ...


Part of the problem is people seem to read a lot into things. Griff is not the fastest dog running blinds, oh well. I won't read much into it as far as his ability to move or whether or not as a whole WGSL are slow running blinds or sprinting. I've never been told my WGSL was slow running blinds but hey, he does flyball. We can all find videos on the Internet that nitpick to prove our points one way or the other. I don't personally think Grimm is all that slow or crippled by how he runs, he is just not the lightening fast dog running blinds. But maybe he has a really nice call out or is really clean and intense in his guarding...I don't know. No dog is perfect.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

In both venues you're comparing dog to dog. As much as you're supposed to compare to a "standard" you really are comparing them against each other. More so the dogs at the show or the trial that day. So, small things like running slower, or just not moving with as much vigor as the dog that went just before or after is really going to hurt the dog. It's somethjng the crowd can easily notice and so can the judge. This is part of the reason why a show line would have a hard time competing...you're being compared to dogs that are strictly bred for that sport. When the sport does place so much value on drive, speed, and power, a dog that moves faster is going to score higher.

Of course there are other things that are considered as Lies mentioned, but let's assume all things equal, it's just normal for a judge to dock points and place a dog that moved slower (even though correct) below a dog that is quicker and faster. It's part of the reason why malanois are so successful in the sport world, the quicker, flashier, movements are easily noticed and *look* more spectacular than a shepherd who does everything correctly, but just not as quick.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Agree. 

He also looked quicker on the long attack and I think the judge commented on that as well ("high speed").

What I was pondering as well is, can Griff outrun a human, probably so. 

Let's just say if that was my dog, that I had trained, I would be one proud happy camper....for sure.






Liesje said:


> Part of the problem is people seem to read a lot into things. Griff is not the fastest dog running blinds, oh well. I won't read much into it as far as his ability to move or whether or not as a whole WGSL are slow running blinds or sprinting. I've never been told my WGSL was slow running blinds but hey, he does flyball. We can all find videos on the Internet that nitpick to prove our points one way or the other. I don't personally think Grimm is all that slow or crippled by how he runs, he is just not the lightening fast dog running blinds. But maybe he has a really nice call out or is really clean and intense in his guarding...I don't know. No dog is perfect.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

True about fast = flashy and noticeable.

Yet, at some point there's going to be diminishing returns.

Malis are quick but what do they give up for that ability? Sometimes substance, bone, muscle are as important as speed.....






martemchik said:


> In both venues you're comparing dog to dog. As much as you're supposed to compare to a "standard" you really are comparing them against each other. More so the dogs at the show or the trial that day. So, small things like running slower, or just not moving with as much vigor as the dog that went just before or after is really going to hurt the dog. It's somethjng the crowd can easily notice and so can the judge. This is part of the reason why a show line would have a hard time competing...you're being compared to dogs that are strictly bred for that sport. When the sport does place so much value on drive, speed, and power, a dog that moves faster is going to score higher.
> 
> Of course there are other things that are considered as Lies mentioned, but let's assume all things equal, it's just normal for a judge to dock points and place a dog that moved slower (even though correct) below a dog that is quicker and faster. It's part of the reason why malanois are so successful in the sport world, the quicker, flashier, movements are easily noticed and *look* more spectacular than a shepherd who does everything correctly, but just not as quick.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A showline GSD beat a handful of mals at the level 1 mondioring nationals in 2008. He was a coatie too. He was also a genetic freak show of a dog that loved to bite with hate.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't know if you've ever had a chance to chat with Ash (Qbchottu) at all but she can tell you about a few, as she calls them, nasty SLs that loved to bite. Of course in this case nasty is meant as a good thing....




Baillif said:


> A showline GSD beat a handful of mals at the level 1 mondioring nationals in 2008. He was a coatie too. He was also a genetic freak show of a dog that loved to bite with hate.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The city just south of me has a SL K9 and he's better than their mals according to their trainer who comes from the sport world and is very well respected.

Of course all dogs give something up, but I'm just saying, when you compare two dogs, it's not really that they can do it, it's which one does it better, at the end of the day, there has to be a winner. And the speed looks better than a 100 lbs monster slowly moving around the blinds. And I love watching a bigger (within standard) shepherd do a long bite much more than a smaller bitch or other breed, but the dogs that fling themselves and launch and just go are also very impressive.

Like you stated...of course the SL can catch a human, but on the sport field they're not just saying "can he meet the standard" when it comes to points, you have to have some way of separating the dogs.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Understood wrt sport.

Where I was headed is the discussion that arises of how the "flash" in sport would apply to real world work. 

After watching that guy in the latest jump the White House fence incident toss a Mali around like it was nothing, I wondered if a bit more substance may have been to the dogs advantage. 



martemchik said:


> The city just south of me has a SL K9 and he's better than their mals according to their trainer who comes from the sport world and is very well respected.
> 
> Of course all dogs give something up, but I'm just saying, when you compare two dogs, it's not really that they can do it, it's which one does it better, at the end of the day, there has to be a winner. And the speed looks better than a 100 lbs monster slowly moving around the blinds. And I love watching a bigger (within standard) shepherd do a long bite much more than a smaller bitch or other breed, but the dogs that fling themselves and launch and just go are also very impressive.
> 
> Like you stated...of course the SL can catch a human, but on the sport field they're not just saying "can he meet the standard" when it comes to points, you have to have some way of separating the dogs.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Alex Eisenhaus was universal sieger


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I think the west german showlines have significantly improved in the last 5 years. Still not the quality they were in the pre70s but they are getting there. Both in conformation and in drive. The working line has become more "sporty" (I'm probably going to cop a lot for my opinion here). The posses more prey drive and intensity and less aggression. So they are easier to train for sch and look better.
I think with the current genetic gene pool and easiness of breeding to dogs in other countries the working line gsd will continue to get better in sch. The showing scene will continue to focus on showing. Many countries are now looking to ban man work unless it is done by security or police. This won't help.
Do I see a showline beating the best working lines?? No


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