# Dog classes, there seems to be no middle ground



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People either have prong collars on their dog, are using stiff commands, and are expecting stiff obedience, or they are learning this method.

Or they have what is viewed as more humane collars (so far, no shock collars in classes), and they use syruppy voices with commands that sound more like questions and even pleading, but not telling. 

If the instuctor says, "ask your dog to sit" just leave why don't ya? It is "tell your dog to sit," praise or thank you at compliance depends on the level of training and quickness and completeness of the response. 

It is no wonder that people who use training collars view those of us who do not as wimpy weenie owners, with dogs that are uncontrolled and accidents ready to happen. 

I mean for heaven's sake, the two year old mastiff in class tonight weighed as much as the two women with him put together, and he was blowing the one working with him off completely. Maybe, just maybe that was because she was asking him and not telling him. She curled the end of every statement into a giand question mark.

No the dog would not sit, and no, the dog would not down. By the end of the class, the dog was staying ok, but I think he was just being lazy, not wanting to get up again, because he was not enthusiastic about sitting. 

So why is it that women who are afraid to TELL their dog something, generally go for dogs like Mastiffs, bull mastiffs, Rottys, Dobes, Sheps, and the like? 

Why do people think firm and gentle are diametrically opposed?


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

That doesn't sound like much fun! 

We've got a center here that does clicker training and they do a great job - mainly with getting the people to do what they need to. They use flat collars and positive methods only and I've never seen classes of such well behaved dogs. I wish more classes were like that.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

To me, it seems that way too many meek people of both sexes and all backgrounds get dogs that are too much for them to handle. Maybe they feel that having a powerful/intimidating breed of dog will somehow bestow some power and confidence on themselves? I don't get it either...









FWIW I "use" training collars, I suppose, in the sense that my dogs often wear them in public places, but I don't need them to get my dogs to obey me, nor to correct them. 

A simple word will get me what I need without raising my voice, but I like having insurance when unforeseen things happen. I sorely missed the prongs when I had three 85-lb dogs on 1/4" nylon kennel leads for a bedtime potty in the yard and an aggressive pitbull/mix charged us. All three lunged in front of me, giving me nasty rope burns. They did realize they were pulling me when I yelled Hey and stopped immediately to let me step ahead and deal with the dog.

I agree, there are a lot of people who seem to fall to either extreme of the spectrum. I am boss 100% of the time but I'm not a b*itch about unless/until I absolutely must be.


----------



## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

As mean as it sounds, if I tell Kilo to sit in a normal or high voice, HE WILL COMPLETELY ignore me.
I HAVE to use a pretty gruff voice to get him to do something.

I saw a woman the other day in the woods with a HUGE dog on a leash totally out of control.
Trying to lunge at Keys. She had no control whatsoever.
That, to me is dangerous.
My dog is under control & this womans dog is like pulling her arm off & she wasnt even giving the dog a command!

Why not get a nice Yorkie to put in your purse?
:rofl:


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think a poor trainer is a poor trainer, no matter what methods they use. 
I don't think the words "ask" vs "tell" make that much of a difference in themselves, it's more about how the trainer teaches and if they are teaching in a way that they can't get a dog to do a sit or down for a whole class they are probably not a very good trainer. A dog doesn't know the difference between a question or a statement.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

One thing I see a lot at one of my clubs is dogs in classes where they just don't belong. I've been in classes geared towards preparing for competition and titling, and people sign up with dogs that cannot do a down without 10 commands or physical assistance! This is always very frustrating for me, as someone who values efficiency and doesn't have much patience. When I sign up for "advance obedience" I am there with a dog that is already titled intending to perfect things, not spend lots of money on the fees and lots of time driving to the club so that the dog who cannot do a down gets 80% of the attention from the trainer. It's the same for CGC classes, I've seen so many dogs that have failed miserably or simply been asked to move back to basic or get private instruction. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with signing up for the basic obedience if that's where you're at! You're only stressing yourself and your dog out more by entering a class that is above the dog's level. And agility too, we are thinking of setting some pre-reqs even for basic agility because there have been too many incidents that are distracting at best, if not dangerous. There's a difference between a dog being really revved up in drive and a dog that is simply out of control.

I really do not care what tools or methods or tone of voice the handler uses as long as it WORKS.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had been in class with the corgi and the dobe and the dachsund many times before. This class is supposed to be for those of us looking to show in March. 

The Dobe decided he really, really liked me last year, and would sidle up to me and solicit pets. He did that tonight. 

The mastiff is just unbelieveable, big, and they have very little control over it. For some crazy reason, he decided he was my buddy too. 

I left Babsy on a down stay at the end of the room away from the mastiff (Goliath), to get a cookie. I was talking for a while over there keeping an eye on my girl. This was at the end of the class.

Anyhow, when I went back, I partied a bit with my girl because she is doing really good. I had her do a few Arounds, and through my legs, and up into my arms, and just having a good time getting her a little ramped up. 

The dobe lady told me to cool it and nodded toward the mastiff. He was very amped up. I immediatly put Babs in a heel, and did some heeling work instead, so they could get him under control. 

I am sure our trainer will sort the owner out soon.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I think a poor trainer is a poor trainer, no matter what methods they use.


I could not agree more! And poor handling is poor handling - it can be asking the dog politely over and over or it can be trying to drag a dog into position using a choke chain, either way the handler isn't training the dog well, and the trainer may not be training the handlers well. It does not have to be that way. With good training/handling you can have a dog that complies quickly and readily to commands given in a perfectly pleasant voice.


----------



## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

> Quote:*We've got a center here that does clicker training and they do a great job - mainly with getting the people to do what they need to. They use flat collars and positive methods only and I've never seen classes of such well behaved dogs. I wish more classes were like that.*


I have to agree - we've been training with a positive reinforcement method similar to clicker training for the past ten years. In that time I've trained three dogs with a fourth in process from beginner to advanced (one SAR and three TDI). There have been a share of bad actors. The breeds ranging from Mastiff to miniature Dachshund in our groups. Most wearing Greyhound collars. There's nothing wimpy about it.
I'm older than dirt and have seen most every negative reinforcement hardware to come down the pike. Haven't seen that many dogs that would not respond to positive reinforcement, including those bad actors.
Like Karen Pryor said (paraphase) can't train a 6 ton Orca with a choke collar.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is exactly how I was feeling tonight. The class was getting us ready for a show, and a great portion of the time was spent on this dog who belongs in basic. 

Worse yet, I had signed a puppy and an advanced dog up in basic classes because they were all that were offered. How come the massive dog is not in one of those classes. One is on Saturday, the other Wednesday night, so it should not really be a scheduling thing. 

I think dogs and horses do size us up and will give us the amount of respect that we command. We do not have to be harsh or nasty, but we do have to speak in a tone that expects the dog will follow the command. I think if you say SIT to your dog it is a lot different than curving it up a question, or plain saying it without conviction. If you cannot believe that the dog will do what you want, don't even bother to give him the command.


----------



## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I wish there was a middle ground. It makes me want to become a dog trainer so I could actually be an option that gives a middle ground to others. Nearly all the dog training places in my city specialize in positive training only. No training collars at all, just treats and praise. But sometimes dogs don't care that much about praise and treats, or misbehaving is more enjoyable to them than the rewards. And when someone has a 160 pound dog they can't control and they aren't allowed anything but a flat collar, that can be dangerous to the owner and everyone around.

I use a training collar because my dog has proven to me that he IS capable of dragging me down to the ground. It doesn't matter that he's trained not to, he's still capable of it so I have a backup plan. He's not a robot, he can choose to disobey me.

I don't believe in positive training only. I don't believe in positive punishment only. I don't believe in negative punishment only. And I don't believe in negative reinforcement only. I believe in using methods that are most effective to THAT PARTICULAR DOG and I wish that more trainers were flexible in that regard. I don't like 'only' anything training.

Also, correction training is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

My favorite training quote comes from a horse training resource I like to use:

"Use as little as needed, but as much as it takes."

IMO that goes for both reward/praise AND correction.

Balance is the key to everything, because as stated above, the dog can always choose to disobey. They must know that there is a consequence, but that doesn't have to mean the dog is afraid of its owner. Dogs can certainly respect strict authority with fair consequences without fear. Too often in daycare I see dogs that like their owner, but don't respect them. 

I can't stand some of the "All-Positive Only" trainers that believe ALL negative behaviors should just be ignored. Right, so stealing the roast chicken off the counter isn't self-rewarding? 

It's nuts, but I actually know a trainer that encourages owners to allow things like this, including allowing puppies to relieve themselves on the floor. No interrupting and taking the pup outside to finish and then praising them. The expectation here is that if you simply praise them for pottying outside, they will eventually learn to just go when outdoors. Last time I really had to use the restroom, it felt pretty darn good to be able to go. 

With this trainer, apparently, even SAYING the word "No," or anything else in a stern tone, is "too negative," and will hurt the relationship between you and the dog. Get real, people. The saddest thing about this is that this client's extremely well-bred German show line puppy has SUCH potential and is going to be way too much for her. Just last night, the 6 month old pup was loose and ran down to my house. What did the owner do? Just stood up at her house and called to him about 20 times, shaking treats, etc. We live right on a road! Apparently he also needs "freedom" despite clearly not being reliable off-leash. I'm waiting for her to pull her hair out with this dog and offer him to me! (She got the idea to get a GSD after meeting my dogs...all she's ever raised were Goldens).

Not saying anyone here is so extreme, but I think it's people like this trainer that give the more balanced positive trainers a bad rap in the eyes of those who subscribe to more traditional philosophies. Same goes for those trainers that still "Alpha Roll" dogs and sling puppies around on choke chains that give people who use corrections and training collars a bad name.

I just try to educate people one person/dog at a time.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think a lot of people indict positive training based on poor trainers/handlers using that technique. That's not really fair - in the same way that all e-collar training should not be judged by the people who use it wrong and create terrified cowed dogs, things like clicker training should not be judged by people who let their dogs do whatever they please. The dogs in my clicker class are better behaved than any "harsher" methods class I've ever attended. It's not about positive versus negative, it's about being a good trainer. Too often I see people who think that a dog is misbehaving on purpose or "choosing" to disobey and therefore needs more force, when it's actually a case of poor handling. 

For the purposes of full disclosure - I'm a mixed methods trainer and do use corrections, however I've seen both positive methods used extremely well and effectively.

Sometimes it's not "more" or "less" that a dog needs, it's "different."


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

You're definitely right, pupresq. There are NO bad tools or methods, just bad trainers/owners who use them inappropriately!


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanml
> I can't stand some of the "All-Positive Only" trainers that believe ALL negative behaviors should just be ignored. Right, so stealing the roast chicken off the counter isn't self-rewarding?


Again this just sounds like an issue of a not very good trainer, not an issue with "positive" training itself. IMO it's not about being a "positive" trainer. I have been to several "positive" and clicker classes and all those trainers had multiple ways of dealing with unwanted behaviors. I've never had a trainer say to just ignore all problem behaviors, and I think a trainer who only has that one way of dealing with them is a very poor trainer.
Also just wanted to mention that I do not know of any trainers personally who call themselves "all positive" or "only positive" trainers. There's really no such thing as "positive only" (even ignoring behavior does not fall into the quadrant of positive reinforcement) and a trainer calling themselves that is either purposefully misrepresenting themselves in hopes of attracting more clients or is just not very knowledgeable. In either case I'd stay away from them!




> Originally Posted By: LiesjeAnd agility too, we are thinking of setting some pre-reqs even for basic agility because there have been too many incidents that are distracting at best, if not dangerous. There's a difference between a dog being really revved up in drive and a dog that is simply out of control.


That sounds very frustrating! I think they should be very clear about the level and the prerequisites for the class. I've been looking into different class options recently and most of the trainers I've found have a class description on the website which including explanations of the class and prerequisites-- if not, the ones I contacted told me what the requirements were. For example when I emailed about signing up for an agility class (basic/foundation agility) they emailed me back and told me the requirements (dog must have a solid recall/down and be able to work off leash.)


----------



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

In all honesty I've never met an "all-positive" trainer. People talk about them (and I've been called an "all-positive" trainer, mostly by people who are advocating frequent use of corrective collars) but it's really difficult to be all-positive. I tried to be with Trick when I got her nearly 14 years ago. I did really well - she rarely even heard the word "no" - and she turned out to be a fantastic dog, wonderfully obedience and bonded to me, but it was not easy to avoid corrections. 

There's a difference between positive training and permissive training. Positive training, in MY definition, involves focusing on what the dog is doing RIGHT, marking the behaviors you like and rewarding them, and using mostly mild methods to avoid or stop behaviors that can't be extinguished by ignoring or are life-threatening and need addressed immediately. When you've got a dog that is engaged and enjoying what you're doing, and you suddenly go "whoops!" and take the dog by the collar and gently put it into a kennel or tether it to a doorknob and walk away, that provides a type of correction that can be really effective IF you've truly engaged your dog. And if you have a dog that is really wild and you're not physically that strong, then using a tool that helps with control *while you deal with the situation by proper training* is a wise choice. But one of my pet peeves is that the majority of people who use corrective collars don't really train their dogs - they simply continue to use the corrective collars and the dog only responds because it knows the collar will create pain. That's not a trained dog. And if a situation arises where the dog doesn't have the collar on and the person needs to control the dog, it's a struggle. My idea of a well-trained dog is one that doesn't need ANY collar, but of course that takes a lot of time and training.

I think that there's a natural ability in many people to be a good trainer, and the dogs feel that. Of course, those people need training and experience to hone that ability, but once they do then almost all dogs tend to respond to them accordingly. And then there are people who, no matter how many training classes they take, will never be really effective as a trainer because they just don't have the - for lack of a better word - proper "alphaness" that the dog understands and responds to. It's just like those people who are naturally musical, or naturally mathematic or artistic - if it's there, it's there and those people will always find it easier in those subjects than those who don't have it.

I'm in the process of setting up a couple of training classes and trying to decide exactly what classes to teach. It's been a while since I've taught due to illness, but I really don't want to lose my instructor status (there are some great perks - like free facility use - when you're an instructor). So I'm pulling together my notes and I've polled the club members to see what classes they may want. Looks like I'll probably be teaching a basic class (but allowing those advanced students in who are working with a young dog that primarily needs distractions, so they can work around the more beginning dogs) and a scent discrimination class (utility level scent articles). The other option is another freestyle class, but I'm not sure I have the energy for that quite yet! Maybe after the scent discrimination class is over ... 

Everyone who has taken classes and feels they are a decent trainer should volunteer to teach a class - you will be amazed at how much you learn (and how difficult some things become) when you try to teach others.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

unfortunately there are very few trainers at least in my area that can or will deal with specific breeds. they label the gsd and some others and don't have the knowledge to think outside the box in their general training, and or just do not want to deal with the more dominant breeds.........in my case its forced me to come up with my own training plan getting creative and specializing things for my individual dog..........since there isn't much available here i have learned to do my own thing in classes and apply whatever works for me..........i also don't hesitate to tell others in class who haven't got control of their dogs or who aren't paying attention to respect of my personal space with my dog to move away........untimately its up to the owner/handler to be aware of things and work with the ultimate goals you have in mind...............because it really is all about the handler and the dog and what you need to accomplish............i always make it known to the instructor what my goals are so they know ahead of time and if i feel they aren't going to comply or if i get any bad vibes i move on.......

in general classes most are there just because, no real goals in mind, don't want to learn or pay attention, aren't aware of what their dog is doing, no focus or team work.........So, maybe this is why alot of trainers don't specialize, because the majority of people aren't serious about training........but, for the people that are serious it can be frustrating when initially trying to find the right guidence.............


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

a lot of people's personalities are mismatched with their dogs and all the class in the world won't change a thing when you get home.
Paige's first trainer got in my face to the point I almost punched her (over a prong, hey, she was right though) and another woman left the class because of her freaking out. Paige went thru 2 levels of training w her until the prong stand off.
I found the great trainers that changed our life when Paige was three. Old school. They were not afraid to reprimand or praise the dogs.It was balanced.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Suzie,
i do agree about the old school training, and they aren't afraid to say it like it is........which is the only way people can learn. i find with this type of approach if a person is really willing to learn they will take the constructive critizism and become a better handle anyone who is insulted or not willing to change for the better isn't really there to learn.....

on the same token alot of the new age trainers really want the $$$$$$ so they aren't honest, things aren't addressed and so you have dogs and owners that aren't progressing the way they would otherwise.......


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LiesjeAnd agility too, we are thinking of setting some pre-reqs even for basic agility because there have been too many incidents that are distracting at best, if not dangerous. There's a difference between a dog being really revved up in drive and a dog that is simply out of control.
> ...


I think we are just going to have to resort to "testing" the dogs ourselves. No matter what it says on the site, people still think that sit and down 30% of the time is "advanced obedience", or that attempting the CGC = CGC level obedience, or that "my dog listens to me in our living room!" instantly carries over to doing agility flatwork in a new environment with six other dogs. I think in the past the club has has let some things slide in favor of keeping people happy and letting them move on with their dogs but it is literally coming back to bite them in the @$$.


----------



## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I hear you Selzer. I feel like there should be a middle ground to. I am all for positive reinforcement, but pleading with your dog in a squeky voice doesn't always work.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanmlI can't stand some of the "All-Positive Only" trainers that believe ALL negative behaviors should just be ignored. Right, so stealing the roast chicken off the counter isn't self-rewarding?


If you know of a positive reinforcement trainer that feels that way, the problem isn't with the philosophy, it's that she doesn't understand it and isn't properly implementing it. For one thing, the best way to make sure that a dog doesn't take your dinner off the kitchen counter is to not leave it there unattended. Manage the environment so your dog can succeed while you work on training your dog what you DO want him to do, rather than waiting for him to be bad and then punishing him. 

The kind of negative behavior that should be ignored is attention barking, jumping on people, that sort of thing. Giving the dog ANY kind of attention under those circumstances (and yes, telling your dog NO! is attention, as is even looking at him), reinforces the behavior, ensuring that it will continue. Teach him that it doesn't work by ignoring it, then marking and rewarding him the second he stops. Teach him an alternate, incompatible, behavior instead. Behavior that is not reinforced will eventually extinguish because it no longer works to get him what he wants. That doesn't mean he gets to chase the cat and you have to ignore it, make sure he CAN'T chase the cat by managing his environment while you train him to be nice to kitty. 

I actually saw a firmly entrenched attention barker turned around within a short period of time at a Suzanne Clothier seminar two years ago. His owner was very frustrated with the barking but had no idea how he had been perpetuating it until it was pointed out to him. It was beautiful to watch the entire process - there was even an extinction burst where the dog tried harder and harder to get his owner's attention because it had worked so well for so long, and the absolute amazement and frustration on his face before the light bulb moment when he realized that the rules had changed and that NOT barking was now the key to getting attention was priceless. 



> Quote:It's nuts, but I actually know a trainer that encourages owners to allow things like this, including allowing puppies to relieve themselves on the floor. No interrupting and taking the pup outside to finish and then praising them. The expectation here is that if you simply praise them for pottying outside, they will eventually learn to just go when outdoors.


That's just dumb, and I agree - nuts! Most positive trainers DO use negative or "no reward" markers as a way to impart information to their dogs. I certainly do and always have. I also provide rules and structure, with consequences for non-compliance, it's just that instead of physical punishment, the dogs don't get something they want and value until they do comply. And guess what? The more they want it, the faster they figure out how to "make" me give it to them!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestThere's a difference between positive training and permissive training. Positive training, in MY definition, involves focusing on what the dog is doing RIGHT, marking the behaviors you like and rewarding them, and using mostly mild methods to avoid or stop behaviors that can't be extinguished by ignoring or are life-threatening and need addressed immediately. When you've got a dog that is engaged and enjoying what you're doing, and you suddenly go "whoops!" and take the dog by the collar and gently put it into a kennel or tether it to a doorknob and walk away, that provides a type of correction that can be really effective IF you've truly engaged your dog. And if you have a dog that is really wild and you're not physically that strong, then using a tool that helps with control *while you deal with the situation by proper training* is a wise choice.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: debbieb
> on the same token alot of the new age trainers really want the $$$$$$ so they aren't honest, things aren't addressed and so you have dogs and owners that aren't progressing the way they would otherwise.......


Again, I don't think this is related to the methods they are using, but rather the quality of the trainer themselves-- it's just a bad trainer. They would be a bad trainer whether they used "new age" methods or "old school" or something in between.




> Originally Posted By: Buoyant DogI hear you Selzer. I feel like there should be a middle ground to. I am all for positive reinforcement, but pleading with your dog in a squeky voice doesn't always work.


Pleading with your dog in a squeaky voice does not sound like training-- and it's definitely not proper use of positive reinforcement based methods. That sounds more like an owner who doesn't know what they are doing.
Positive does not equal permissive. I use positive reinforcement based methods and I do not plead OR use a squeaky voice-- well, unless I am purposefully trying to rev up my dog's excitement for a particular reason, in that case I might use a higher pitch and excited tone of voice.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: debbieb
> ...



yes, i agree it no matter what method new or old.........the trainer is the one who needs to get things across to the handlers and make sure they understand the method and apply the method correctly.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I know there are great positive reinforcement-based trainers and that it works very well for most dogs in most situations. I use them myself 90% of the time (100% for puppies), but I'm not opposed to corrections in specific circumstances, i.e a young dog blowing off a recall and running loose in a high traffic area, or for getting a very aggressive dog under control enough so that it can get out of panic/fight-mode and into a mindset that is more conducive to learning acceptable behavior through more gentle techniques.

I'm just saying it's the kooky hippie trainers like the two people I referred to that either don't know what they're doing at all, or take what they believe is positive training and go to the extreme with it for some kind of misguided personal reasons.

This results in 1) getting many uneducated pet owners set against anything remotely sounding like "Positive Training" and 2) sending many clients and dogs off on the wrong foot and causing more problems than the dog initially came to training for, and we all know this leads to more "bad dogs" that wind up in shelters.

I think we all can agree that owners should REALLY do a lot of research on dog training on their own before even considering letting a stranger tell them what to do.


----------



## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanmlI know there are great positive reinforcement-based trainers and that it works very well for most dogs in most situations. I use them myself 90% of the time (100% for puppies), but I'm not opposed to corrections in specific circumstances, i.e a young dog blowing off a recall and running loose in a high traffic area, or for getting a very aggressive dog under control enough so that it can get out of panic/fight-mode and into a mindset that is more conducive to learning acceptable behavior through more gentle techniques.
> 
> I'm just saying it's the kooky hippie trainers like the two people I referred to that either don't know what they're doing at all, or take what they believe is positive training and go to the extreme with it for some kind of misguided personal reasons.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this. My dog is NOT allowed in the road or our driveway (high traffic in the summer)
He MUST be corrected with a pinch collar when he goes in the driveway. (Very rare that he does it now, but it still happens as people call him out there ughhhh.)
When he was a pup I would just say "NO driveway".
He got it. But then he started to purposely roll his ball into the driveway & go get it.
Then I HAD to start correcting him or else he could be killed.
Its not something foolish as where hes eating leaves or dirt.
He has to be corrected.
Its very rare he goes into the driveway now.
But I feel better knowing that he wont bolt into the driveway or road & get killed.

I wouldnt be sure HOW to do that with JUST positive training.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think it is up to owners to educate themselves and be proactive with their dogs.................i also think if anyone has intuition and common sense and get bad vibes from classes/trainers they need to go elsewhere...........negative vibes have no place in the training area...........boy do i have stories of some of the classes and trainers its just amazing to me how they ever picked that profession and had any attendance at all...........


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RBut I feel better knowing that he wont bolt into the driveway or road & get killed.
> 
> I wouldnt be sure HOW to do that with JUST positive training.


Be very careful about making that assumption, as it only takes one set of different circumstances for him to make a deadly mistake (squirrel running past him into the street, etc.). 

No dog is absolutely, forever and in all situations going to be 100% reliable. 99%? Sure, my dogs are, and their recall was taught with rewards and taking advantage of their pack drive. This includes calling them off of wild game. Nico even caught a squirrel last year when we had a fenced yard but dropped it immediately and let the poor thing hobble away, and Sasha stayed exactly where I told her. But for the very rare occurrence when one of the neighborhood deer will run through the yard and across the road during the middle of the day, no, I will not assume my dogs will be perfect. 

That 1% chance is enough to make me concerned and is the reason why I bought e-collars for when they're both outside playing together in our current large, but road-facing yard.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now (that wasn't all specifically directed at you, Angel!). My landlady/neighbor that I mentioned in an above post really got me rattled last night when I heard Ripley blowing her off and running loose down in our yard near the road (and accompanied by what looked in the dark to be a second 6-7 month puppy; she mentioned wanting a second but I assumed she would wait 'til Rip was older and TRAINED







). 

I adore that pup and was hoping she'd let me help her out since it's her first GSD but I think my landlady must believe I'm a "meanie" since I had prongs on them when I first introduced her, as she hasn't once asked for any advice though she wanted her dog to be as well-trained as my two. I think she's been brainwashed by her hippie trainer


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

Without reading all that I say-positive training would be easy training in MOST mellow, normal dogs. My two mutts never even went to class because they never challenged me. I taught Travis NOTHING formally, he just listens. Then there is Paige. The thing I admired about my trainers is they were fearless.They called her bluff. They told me up front if I wanted my dog changed then it was not going to be all pretty. At one point he told my dog to "shut up" real mean and I just KNOW a lot of you would have flipped over that!! I was in AWE of these people.
The attention quickly turned to a soft spoken lady with a big Lab mix that she just could not get serious enough with. The Lab was a freak. The trainer walked over ,grabbed the leash and yanked that dog into a down , scolding it. That dog chilled out fast.We were like "whoa" and seconds later she went over an wildly praised the dog for staying in the down and being quiet.
A lightbulb moment for me. Old school.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

that would work well for stubborn, real dominant, or dogs that don't respond well to other training methods, and i do agree some need a tougher approach, although that approach would not work with a fearful/unsure dog, or certainly a dog that had been abused..........
it reall is all an individual dog process........i think a good trainer would definitely bend according to the dogs personality, etc...one size does not fit all.......


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, there are definitely some dogs who need to be "called out," because sometimes their lives depend on it. Sasha was definitely one of them when I got her. As soon as she learned that I would absolutely NOT accept aggressive behavior (lunging, bite attempts at neutral strangers, mauling other dogs without warning over sleeping spots/human/food, etc). It really only took one severe collar correction to get her to stop attacking other dogs and a few hard prong corrections to get her to stop lunging at people outside. 

Once she realized this fact, she learned she had to sit and stay (behind me, at first, to reinforce my role as protector and make her feel safer) when strangers passed because a lunging/snarling dog has only one thing on its mind and they will not be in the proper state of mind to be open to learning. After that was a comfortable routine for her I was then able to restart the socialization process the way it should have been done by her original owners, working to increase her comfort level around strangers with treats, praise, happy everything to make her understand that strangers aren't out to get her and that I'll do all the protecting if necessary. Simple NILIF and common sense worked like a charm for the rest of her issues with rank, resource guarding, tail chasing, and separation anxiety. Beneath that fear-aggressive, insecure-dominant, neurotic exterior, I discovered an amazing dog that could have gone to the top in just about anything if only she were raised properly.

She just needed her world turned temporarily upside down but one of the crazy trainers I mentioned wasn't willing to do it. The clients turned her over to the trainer as a last ditch effort to avoid the shelter and being PTS. When she realized she had bitten off more than she could chew, what did she do? Avoided the problem by isolating the poor dog from people and dogs (though she played very well with other dogs outside the home). Knowing this couldn't go on forever, she tried to find someone willing to just accept Sasha for what she was, a good deterrent dog for a single person with no kids or pets. When naturally no one wanted her, she also felt that having her PTS was the only option left!! That's when I stepped in and took the dog home. She met Nico at the daycare, played beautifully with him for an hour, then I put her in the car and took her home.

That's what I mean when I think of extreme/awful "Positive Trainers," She was so set against any methods of physical correction that she was willing to put a wonderfully smart, eager to please, healthy 3 y.o GSD down rather than use any methods that went against her misguided principles. 

This is why so many people end up with the wrong impression of positive training. That was my first real exposure to it and it naturally turned me off at first, but the only trainers I don't like these days are people that use either ineffective or overly harsh methods of training. 

Unlike this "trainer," a REAL dog trainer is willing and able to use any and all tools, methods, and philosophies to train and rehabilitate a dog (tailored to the dog and situation), because they keep the dog's needs and best interests in mind--whether it be finding a loving, stable forever-home or keeping them from finding themselves in desperate need of one.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thats a great success story,,,,,,,,and i commend you for taking on such a challenge! :

i would be leary of using a prong correction for my fear-inscure dog for nipping people...............he is not great with people and i would wonder if the pinch/hard correction with the prong would work in the reverse for some dogs like this with people.............i know they can definitely associate the painful correction with the person or thing that there being corrected for............that would be a tough call.........


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Sending you a PM, Debbie. I've hogged this thread enough!


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I realized that I wasn't clear in my really long post above, and I don't want any people in a similar situation to misinterpret what I was describing as to how I extinguished Sasha's aggressive outbursts, because done incorrectly, as Debbie referred to, can make the problem exponentially worse.

I was a bit unclear in my last post now that I looked at it, but I wanted to explain that yes, used in the way you describe, a prong can make the problem worse. A dog that is allowed to self-correct when he lunges, or who is corrected _for the lunge/nip_ can associate the correction with the offending person/cat/dog/bike/etc.

The proper way to use a prong to correct lunging/nipping is to give the dog a command that he knows, such as sitting, BEFORE the perceived threat comes into his trigger zone and correcting the dog for _breaking the given command_. It's like extreme obedience under distraction, so to speak. 

What I did was to give her a command (in this case, a sit-stay) before someone came within her trigger zone and ONLY corrected her for breaking the sit when the person got too close for her comfort. If she lunged, she got the prong correction and repeated the command to sit and stay. If she sat, she got praised, even if she was all growly, staring, or barking at the person going past. If her butt was on the ground, that was considered a success because I was taking gradual steps with her towards where I wanted to her be eventually. 

Once the sit was offered and held reliably, I worked on getting her to focus on ME and ignore anything else around her, therefore giving her something else to do besides stare and growl. Obviously lots of praise here, too.

When she was offering a nice quiet sit and holding it with people walking by, I started reducing the distance between us and the sidewalk. If she reverted to prior behavior, we took a step back and started over again. 

This is considered a form of flooding, which is a technique which should be reserved only when all other options have been exhausted. Basically, a dog is forced to endure a situation that it is afraid of, with the expectation that the dog will eventually realize that nothing bad comes of the experience. The dog is more afraid of getting a correction than of the scary whatever. 

Done incorrectly or on a very fearful dog, it can ruin whatever trust existed between him and his handler. It should only be used in cases where it's a last resort, or there is danger to people or the dog himself, for being PTS. Therefore I am stunned to see that a certain famous television personality uses techniques like this on dogs for which other methods would surely have worked, such as getting a dog over its fear of shiny floors. 

Okay, sorry that was so long, but I wouldn't want anyone to read this thread and misinterpret what I did with her and try something similar on their own dog without understanding the principles behind it.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with Melanie, Debbie, and Chicagocanine. Positive doesn't mean permissive.

As far as what sort of dogs it works well with - If done correctly, ALL of them! I think the people who think it only works with really mellow or already pretty well behaved dogs have never taken a really great clicker class. I used to think the same thing and taking these classes completely opened my eyes. I have used these techniques on breeds from Rottweilers to Chihuahuas all with good effect. And as a rescue person who gravitates to "problem" dogs, I end up with all manner of issues - hyper ADD, overly alpha, fear aggressive, etc etc, and clicker training has worked for them all. It's a wonderful system. If people don't understand it and use it wrong then they're not going to get the same results, but done well... there's nothing like it.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SuzyEWithout reading all that I say-positive training would be easy training in MOST mellow, normal dogs. My two mutts never even went to class because they never challenged me.


It's not only for mellow dogs or even only for "normal" dogs. I think that is a common misconception. I know trainers and behaviorists who use positive methods (no training collars or corrections, etc) for ALL types of dogs, including human-aggressive dogs, dogs who are facing euthanasia due to behavior problems, "hard cases" and dogs for whom other methods have failed.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This has been interesting, but I am afraid that I was misunderstood. The class instructor is great. She does suggest prong collars and other training devices when the owners cannot control their dogs. She explains thing many different ways, and tries a variety of techniques to hit a method that the dog and owner respond well to. 

So the problem is not the trainer/instructor. 

My beef was the owner who brings a gigantic dog in that weighs twice what she ways, and cannot get him to do the most basic of things, IN AN ADVANCED/GETTING READY FOR SHOWS CLASS. 

Yes, I AM shouting. I was a bit peeved that Gigundo dog was holding us up, and here I am on lead AGAIN when I have a show to get ready for. I want to do jumps, and learn to get my dog to back up three steps with me, and work totally off lead with distractions. 

I do like the fact that most of our classes have dogs at different levels, and we can work at our own pace. If I want to work on stands, and she has them working on downs, well I can do that. I can do one down, and then work on stands. But if we are all on one wall, there is not much room in there, and with Mr. Fun Police von Doberman on my Right, and Mr. Make Me von Mastiff on my left, well, there is only so many stationary signs I can work on with my gal. 

And this class is specifically for getting ready for the upcoming shows. Not to watch the big dog blow us all off, while its owner asks him to be good.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you like the class and like the instructor just look at it as being a distraction for your dog and if your dog focuses and does what you ask that's a good thing


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, but I currently need help learning some of the excellent signs and I thought that was what I was signing up for. It is still inside, and in February here, that makes a huge difference, so I will continue, but I have been through enough classes where dogs are struggling with basic commands. This is just a gripe. Probably has to do with the position of the moon...


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

My trainers definetly tailored each experience to each dog. The Lab I was talking about was crazy, not fearful. Paige was fear/aggrssive but they basically told me it didn't matter. Correct for bad behavior and praise for good. It sounds too simple but I use this everyday in my job and it works. 
I fully admit that Paige was my first dog and I DID NOT WANT to be mean to her!!!!! I really didn't! I wanted her to be like Travis or Jazmin!! I didn't even know dogs could be like Paige!!!! Keep in mind that Paige was gifted to me and I was told she was a shep/sheltie when in reality I had a fear/aggressive GSD. I made A LOT of permissive mistakes with Paige!!! PERMISSIVE backfired! I would also like Paige to be a reminder that it is never too late! I met the right trainers when she was three.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: selzerYes, but I currently need help learning some of the excellent signs and I thought that was what I was signing up for. It is still inside, and in February here, that makes a huge difference, so I will continue, but I have been through enough classes where dogs are struggling with basic commands. This is just a gripe. Probably has to do with the position of the moon...


Selzer, I would definitely bring this up with the trainer. After all, you are paying for this right??? You AREN'T getting what you paid for, not even close. I'm sure that the mastiff ends up hogging a lot of the trainer's time and attention. Even on the rare occasions he does obey, I'm sure everyone is keeping an eye on him, just waiting for him to act up. I would at least want a partial refund. 

I took an advanced obedience class with Rayden. Several of the people in it were getting ready for AKC obedience, including the class clown. The woman had a Spinoni (spelling?) and he was hilarious! Not blowing her off like the Mastiff you describe, he was super-smart and knew all the commands and then some. He just liked to be funny. But, he didn't distract from the class, just kept us all laughing. We were probably horrible for him because he found the laughter rewarding.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I love seeing different breeds at training now and we are the only GSD so far its awesome


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am giving it another week. In today's class, the class is also advanced, but she told me up front that the participants are all striaght out of basic. It is where the mastiff belongs, if not basic.

But the 10 oclock basic class had a white samoyed a little over a year that is so piercingly loud and barky I wanted to strangle it. (The moon, I swear). In the basic class a few weeks ago with Forrest (now Shadow). And Shadow's owners even commented on the dog when I saw them Thursday. 

Anyhow, the trainer had them move the dog up into the eleven oclock class frame because of the other dogs in the ten oclock class -- two six month old pups in there (Zibba and Shadow, from Joy's litter) and the sammy is lunging and going after other dogs. 

So it was in my class today. The ten month old shepherd was nice though, and is learning well. The chocolate lab's owner is an obedience person, and her dog is doing well. So there was just the barky lungey thing to worry about.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sue, I know exactly how you feel. Instead of taking classes, I got together with a few other people and did "drop-ins". We did not advertise so we avoided all the people who sign up for advance/competitive and cannot do half of an RN course yet, we just invited people who we knew were at a competitive level and were prepping for a trial. Even though we don't meet as much as a regular class, I get way more out of it. Often our trainer comes too since she competes with us, and she helps us setup mock courses that meet trial requirements.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Usually in the summer, our trainer puts on classes at her house, pay by the night, and it is by invitation only. These classes are great and provide outside rally ring experience. You bring whatever dog or dogs you are getting ready. We do both rally and obedience exercises.

But it is february, and there are few places around inside to train. Her husband is still in a rehab center after some extensive surgery. Normally, he would be working with the mastiff owner and the class would be moving on. IN the other classes, she has one of her advanced students helping her in the class, taking on the part of her husband. That person is working her dog in this class. So I am being whiney and selfish. 

I have been working with this trainer for four years, and I am not going anywhere else, she is really good. 

I am mostly just in awe that weak -- for lack of a better term --people take on humongous dogs, with strong wills. I was surprised that the instructor has not suggested a prong for this dog, but this is not a dog that this individual is going to be able to handle by any type of force. She needs to stand up straight and talk with authority, fully expecting the dog to do what she wants. 

I always thought mastiffs were rather benign, gentle giants, rather easy to manage. But perhaps any type of dog would be acting this way with her. 

While I would love to just get together with a few people to practice, right now I am one of the farthest, and I know of no where heated that we could work. While I can manage outside temps, most of the people I train with have a couple of decades on me. It was a good thought though.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i wish we had a good trainer around here that would do private group classes.........someone that had a clue about gsd's.....

my current trainer is nervous around Sam now because he nipped her twice.........now she has labelled him and thinks there is no hope.........i told her to stay away from him because he knows she's nervous around him........i told her she did not establish her leadership/dominance from the get go, etc, etc.

Sam does have issues that i have been forced to educate myself on specific training, counter conditioning etc....but i don't need a trainer being negative either.........if a trainer is nervous around dogs they should not be in that business................i am learning to be VERY proactive with Sam, and am doing my own thing...........maybe at some point i will find someone in the training business around here that has a clue..................until then i will use classes to my advantage and make all the calls......


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My current trainer owns mostly Leonbergers, and one GSD. 

So happily, she is savy to GSDs. None of mine have nipped her or anyone in the class, but we have lots of GSDs in her classes, and she is not afraid of them. 

The crazy lady that I was taking Jenna to originally WAS afraid of her as a ten week old pup. THAT was a trip. She would come up to me, and Jenna would pull back behind me, and then she would back up, and FINALLY, I told her that she is doing EXACTLY what Jenna wants by pulling back. If she would just stand there for a moment and ignore the dog, she WOULD come forward. It actually did work as planned. But the woman kept saying she would be a fear biter. It was a bunch of huey. 

It is really, really hard to work with a trainer who is afraid of your dog. If you can find someone else. I do not think it is good for you, the trainer, or your dog.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzer I think dogs and horses do size us up and will give us the amount of respect that we command. We do not have to be harsh or nasty, but we do have to speak in a tone that expects the dog will follow the command. I think if you say SIT to your dog it is a lot different than curving it up a question, or plain saying it without conviction. If you cannot believe that the dog will do what you want, don't even bother to give him the command.


I believe this is true as well.

I have seen two kinds of compliant behavior in my own dogs over the years as well.

One is the dog complying because it knows it has to, often trained through negative or aversive conditioning, complying to avoid a negative consequence but excellent compliance nonetheless.

The other is complying through a dogs appeasement instinct, or what most call desire to please. the dog is conditioned to appease the pack leader and seeks to do so. More often a result of positive methods and conditioning.

The first method doesn't work for all dogs well, the second seems to work for most any dog. I mix the two depending on what I am conditioning.

The mastiff talked about seems to be in limbo, with neither type of conditioning being applied. He has no reason to appease, and no reason to expect a negative consequence for not obeying. Either way, no respect.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally my dogs would respond to anything from a booming *SIT* to asking to whispering... This has come in handy when doing animal-assisted therapy with individuals who had a stroke or brain injury and were working on speech therapy goals.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i totally agree that its not a positive thing working with a trainer that is nervous around my dog.......after Sam nipped her for the second time i told her to stay away from him.......she also pulled me aside after class and said Sam was beyond her capabilities and refered me to a behviorist...now keep in mind Sam is perfectly under my control during class the nips happened outside of class.......unlike a few incidences with other dogs that were uncontrolled and a few fights happened. i noticed this trainer never went close to these dogs when things had escalated she just yelled "knock it off" so, this tells me she is nervous about interacting and handling such incidences, or at the very least helping the other people to handle these situations.........

So, because we are limited to good trainers, i am doing my own thing, i know this dog best, i don't need this trainer being negative because she has no clue how to handle dogs with insecurities.......i am doing my own thing, have educated myself on the issues, am counter-conditioning, teaching self control, impulse control etc...........enforcing leadership, etc


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mine will too, now. I often whisper to them in the vet's office to sit, or down, or just use a hand signal, and it works. 

I ask my dogs for things too. But these are dogs that I have an excellent bond with. My asking, is an asking, they do not have to respond to a questionable command, but they normally do because they want to please me, or there is something good in it for them. If you hold a piece of cheese and say "can you sit?" butts hit the turf. "Go lay down." is very different then "sit with me?" as I pat the sofa next to me. If the dog does not do what I want in the first instance, I will go over there and get him into position. In the second instance the dog can curl up beside me, or continue parusing the room, it is a question. 

I really do not think that obedience classes have a place for questions.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've tried to teach my dogs that some commands are optional but it never worked... For example if I wanted my Golden to know that she COULD come up on the couch if she wanted but she didn't have to, I tried patting the couch and saying "up?" or something like that or if I wanted her to know that she could get comfortable and lay down I'd try saying something like "if you wanted you could lay down?" or "Would you like to sit?" but she would treat anything I said to her or asked her as a regular command and do what I said even though I meant for it to be her choice.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They like Goldens and Labs for seeing eye dogs because when trained they will do exactly what the handler asks every time. While sheps MAY approach the same goal a different way. I am partial to sheps, though I have never owned a Golden or a lab. I can talk to my sheps like people, and I will ask them if they want to go outside, or if they want to get a drink of water and any number of things, and they do not just charge the asked item down. They THINK about it and make a decision.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje I think we are just going to have to resort to "testing" the dogs ourselves. No matter what it says on the site, people still think that sit and down 30% of the time is "advanced obedience", or that attempting the CGC = CGC level obedience, or that "my dog listens to me in our living room!" instantly carries over to doing agility flatwork in a new environment with six other dogs. I think in the past the club has has let some things slide in favor of keeping people happy and letting them move on with their dogs but it is literally coming back to bite them in the @$$.


 This is such a problem in many group classes. It tends to be even worse in agility, since that is a more stimulating environment. Testing for agility will only help if it is done in an agility class type setting. I have gone to classes where the dogs supposedly have to be able to sit, down and come when called before starting agility. They do a test but it is usually outside of the ring, on a long line and during obedience classes. These dogs pass the test only to get into agility and run away every time the leash is removed.

I haven't been to a lower level agility class in many years that didn't have at least one dog who wouldn't come when called, would run up to other dogs and ended up taking a good chunk of the class's time. At least as frustrating is that the instructors in the classes I have been in don't really offer any suggestions while these dogs week after week practice really bad behavior. One dog was in the same agility class for _years_ - never learned to run more than a couple obstacles before racing off. 

I tecah 4h Agility and have almost no issues with this at all. My rule is that if your dog won't come, he runs on lead (their first 1-2 years competition USDAA Juniors/4H has an on lead option anyway). They are free to try their dog off leash at class but if the dog won't come - back on leash for the rest of the class. This actually works well with them and allows them to participate in agility, get their dogs used to the equipment and start training the basics before their dogs are ready to run off leash. It also encourages them to work on the issue if the dog's recall is poor. 

For several years I developed and taught progress at your own rate obedience classes at a local dog training place. I was the main instructor and taught three classes - puppy, level one and level two. There were three other instructors who each taught a class or two. There were 4 levels, with levels 3-4 combined into one class. Level one was the basics and level two was more advanced working towards CGC and introducing some comeptition obedience. level four was more advanced working more on competition obedience and exploring other performance stuff. 

The levels all had a check list with behaviors required before progressing. Owners could come to level one for as long as it took for them to teach their dog all level one behaviors. It sounds straight forward enough, I had large boards to track the current students progress at the building and the students had copies of their own as well. There was a still a huge problem with instructors moving dogs up when they didn't know all the behaviors required. Very frustrating!

I do think such problems come from instructors not wanting to be "mean" or discourage anyone. Sometimes it comes from the instructors just not being knowledgeable or patient enough to address a specfic owner's problem. That certainly was the case with my levels program. Either way, it actually ends up being very discouraging for the owner to be in a class that their dog isn't ready for. Many of the early move ups in my levels program ended up dropping out or not re-upping their pass (although the really dedicated ones just moved back to the previous level). The classes otherwise had a great attendence and renewal rate.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I consider myself as a "positive trainer". I use and teach clicker training, I use minimal corrections and encourage owners to work with their dog instead of trying to force their dog to do what they want. 

I also use and suggest a variety of tools in different situations. I may use a prong collar or slip lead or front attach harness or "leash belt" on a dog who pulls. It depends on the dog and which tool would be most appropriate. On aggressive or reactive dogs, I may use a head collar (I rarely consider them for dogs who simply pull). On my own dogs I use bark collars when they are outdoors and have suggested them a few times for owners of dogs who bark when no one is around. I use long lines when teaching recalls in open spaces. There are certain things that I think an e-collar may be a good option for, although I have personally never used them and only rarely suggested it (along with suggesting they first find a trainer well versed in it). 

For many people, one can not use certain tools and still say they are "positive trainers". These people feel that certain tools always cause fear and mean trainers are using force and intimidating dogs into obeying. For others, one can't possibley use reward based methods or clicker training and still be effective with anything but the easiest, dumbest of dogs. For these people, such trainers are babying or bribing dpgs, showing weakness and will always get poor results. It is far easier for people to use black and white labels and make up their mind than it is for them to use critical thinking and evaluate the individual situation.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that what I meant by their not being any middle ground was in the attendies, not the instructors. And after much thought, the majority probably are middle of the road. It is just that the ones with the out of control dog and inability to manage it/ not willing to do anything assertive with the dog, and people who are stiff and harsh giving mega corrections on their prongs stand out and leave a giant impression in your head. 

The rest of us whether using special collars or not, whether getting ready for a show or not, we are more laid back, and as our dogs are doing pretty much what they should, we go unnoticed.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think probably the reason owners that have a handle on their dogs go un-noticed is because their dogs are not the ones attracting attention.............when they are doing what they are supposed to do.........and i also think if you have a handle on your dog your not a problem in class and its obvious to the trainer you have a clue on keeping your dog under control....


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think alot of problem in class, are the majority of people go once a week and do NOT practice at home, they 'think' going once a week for an hour will cure all bad behaviors..

and yes, I've been in tons of classes where some in it, shouldn't be.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think by the time you get to an advanced level, you really should not need to work your dog more than once a week. At least, that is pretty much what I do. Once the basics are down, taking them once a week to work on new things, and keep them sharp works good.

When you have dogs that do not have the basics down in advanced classes, then you have major issues.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i have also seen dogs that should not be in classes........we had an out of control aussie in our indoor agility......the owner was one that didn't enforce disapline, the dog jumped on her constantly.......the trainer did tell her to make the dog sit and not let it jump on her, but it went in one ear and out the other..................and never got resolved.........also the aussie was in that same classroom all day for doggie day care and he thought he owned that room since he was king sh*t all day and ran the other dogs in day care...............of course they are a big money maker with the dog in day care and classes, so probably not going to forcefully address it because of possibly loosing the business.but it does stink for others in the class........becuase the dog makes eye contact and strats fights.......


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerThey like Goldens and Labs for seeing eye dogs because when trained they will do exactly what the handler asks every time.


Not every time. Guide dogs are taught "intelligent disobedience" because they are supposed to think about it first and not automatically do what the handler says-- for example if they are given a command that would be unsafe for the person if the dog followed it, they will not obey the command.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with that, but the dog is still following his training. So I was wrong with what I said, but I have heard that GSDs will sometimes make choices outside of their training as they think this is how it ought to be. This is just something I heard from an artical on seeing eye dogs.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree with that.................thats why it can be challenging working with these dogs..........some lines being more so than others......i also think that in class conditions there is a huge degree of prey drive, like in Agility, which can be very challenging..........


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAI think alot of problem in class, are the majority of people go once a week and do NOT practice at home, they 'think' going once a week for an hour will cure all bad behaviors.


 If the owners aren't working on the behaviors and haven't mastered the behaviors taught in the lower level classes, they should remain in the appropriate class instead of being moved on. While one can blame the owners for not working enough with their dogs, it is not really their fault if they are being put or allowed in a class they aren't ready for. 

I love the drop-in style, progress at your own rate classes for this reason (when all instructors are on board with it). If it takes someone 10 weeks to get their dog to be able to sit/down/focus/etc, it doesn't matter to anyone else - they just remain in the appropriate class until they get it. And owners who work with their dogs a lot or are more experienced or just have "easier" dogs don't get cheated out of class time because their dog is at a higher level than others in the class. It is a win-win solution to this sort of problem.


----------

