# Heeling issues



## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

I've gotten my 8mo gsd to heel pretty well on command while on walks, but with one condition: i must have a treat in hand. The problem is, once i treat him for properly heeling he starts to move ahead of me again.

Its kind of strange though. Even if he goes in front, he doesn't pull at all. If i stop, he stops. And there is always slack on the leash. I just want him to be at my side or slightly behind me the entire time we are on walks. 


Is there a different way I should go about this? It seems like my dog is thinking ok i just have to heel until he gives me the treat, then i can just go on doing whatever i want.

Also, one big problem is that sometimes he will stop doing the heel when he realizes i have no more treats. #_#


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## ecodias (Dec 21, 2008)

Hoping to hear some answers here. We have exactly the same problem with our 11 month GSD.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well sounds like he has you trained)) 

What works for me when teaching a heel is,,(since your basically there, just have to remove the constant treats),,,if he get's ahead, lags, go in the opposite direction immediately, say nothing until he gets back into that position you want and then praise/ I would still treat, but randomly, so he has no clue 'when' he's going to get that treat. 

When I'm out walking my dogs, I am not in constant "heel", because we are on a walk that's not really in training mode, more for pleasure,,as long as they are NOT pulling me, if on leash, usually I'll work on heeling, off and on,,

While I agree treating is a good reward, sometimes dogs get to many treats, and as in your situation, they are working for that treat, not necessarily YOU...

Just keep changing directions when out of heel, (you may get quite dizzy at first LOL) and say NOTHING, as soon as the dog gets in the position you want,,reward)))


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## Bama4us (Oct 24, 2009)

Wish I could help, but I'm still having a problem getting my Bear to heel for more than a few seconds. He's gotten to where he wants to grab the leash and hold it in his mouth, not chewing, but walking himself, when he heels. I'm not sure how to correct him cause he is heeling, and if I tell him drop it, or no, he'll begin to think heeling is wrong. We need suggestions too. We start Manners 101 at an obedience school on the 6th, the first week is without the dogs, so I'm sure that is one thing we will be working on.


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

Well it seems to me he is still young, and maybe not fully understanding the command yet. I don't think you can ask a puppy to heel while on a long walk without some extra rewards. I reinforce behaviors with positive reinforcement(treats). If I am not able to reinforce it, I don't give a command because he is actually learning now to stop heeling whenever he gets the treat. I would have lots more treats with you so that you can surprise him with random rewards when he is in the position you want. For me and my dogs, I actually use "easy" for going for a walk. As long as they are not dragging me all over, I am fine with them being a bit in front of me. My "heel" command is used in obedience training/trial. I wouldn't expect them to have that super sharp focus, and position while out for a leisurely walk.


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## H15A5H1 (Dec 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAwell sounds like he has you trained))
> 
> What works for me when teaching a heel is,,(since your basically there, just have to remove the constant treats),,,if he get's ahead, lags, go in the opposite direction immediately, say nothing until he gets back into that position you want and then praise/ I would still treat, but randomly, so he has no clue 'when' he's going to get that treat.
> 
> ...



i tried what you suggested tonight on our walk, and it did help. i also threw in some random changes of direction so he wouldn't be comfortable in keep going in a straight line. i feel like going in one direction for a long time tempts him to move ahead of me to look for something more exciting.

referencing your post about not constantly heeling.. my goal is to always have my gsd walking in a heeling position next to me. i thought that was the norm. is this too much to ask right now out of a 8month old? i just want him to develop good habits and stay by my side. 

also, i feel that having him in a heel position for the most part helps distractions like pulling away to sniff, or lunging towards other dogs (which is a problem currently).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if that is your goal, that is definately a personal choice. 

It may be to much to ask of an 8mth old he is still very young, exploring the "world", and usually at this age, they aren't going to 'perfect' in all aspects of obedience..(they hit that butthead stage)))

My feeling, with my dogs anyhow, is, when I take a walk, it's some obedience and alot of pleasure. No I don't want them dragging me down the road, but I don't mind them checking things out, sniffing around, (they are kinda like kids especially at this age,,you don't want them sniffing, it's gonna make them want to sniff more))

and no you don't want them lunging at other dogs, it's rather rude, is he doing it because he wants to play with them? Or is he doing it because he's being nasty?? 

IF you see another dog coming which may be a problem,, I would try putting him in a sit/stay(which may be also asking to much of him at this age) and treat him constantly for watching you/sitting/staying/ignoring the other dog. 

It also helps to get into a good obedience class not only for the dog but for you, the handler to learn how to control/react in different situations. 

Also something to do,,,tire him out with a good hard play session before you go for a walk..This will cut his energy down (hopefully!LOL) ...

Hope this helps some!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think you are asking a lot of an 8 month old. My pup is that age. I ask for just a bit of attentive walking for a few steps and then free him to walk more loosely and sniff about. We go a bit and then I might ask for a few more steps of attention. I would have to have treats or reward at this point also. 

I would work on the heeling in places other than the walk. In an enclosed yard or tennis court, some place boring. Get the behavior going a bit more there where there are not distractions of a walk. 
I use something that keeps the dog from pulling the bejees out of me until the training is better. A pinch or head halter can keep you in one piece as you work on the training. 

Also, at this age, my pup is definitely not the apt little student he was in earlier puppy months. He is a bit like a teenager and I am finding a lot less success in his learning. He'll need to mature a bit before I can make a lot of progress again. There are these developmental stages as they mature. Keep working consistently and patiently for some time.

Be ready to distract with activities and food when another dog comes. Go the other direction. Work, work to keep attention on you.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The change of direction method can be useful. We have used this method with a good deal of success with many students. You want to do this in a manner such that the dog doesn't resent it or associate it too much with you. We used David Dikeman's method. This is the first part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sgk7d_ABw


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If you already have the dog to the point that it is not pulling and reorienting to you... that is all I ask for on walks with a youngster. It is not necessary for the dog to always be in heel on your side consistently for a walk. 

Work on the heel position for short bits of the walk and then release the dog to a more free position. Put this on cue, reward it, etc. Then as the dog matures and the behavior is well learned, you can ask for the closer heel on the walk when you need it... like people or dogs nearby. I have three commands.... heel means to pay very close attention to me, close means to stay in a relativly close area on left side as we walk and go sniff signals they are free to sniff about. You have to be very clear to the dog through training what you want. I too see the walk as a leisure activity for the dog a lot so we don't have tight heeling and have plently of go sniff times. I even reward being in close or heel position with the opportunity to go sniff once they understand all the words.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: SambaThe change of direction method can be useful. We have used this method with a good deal of success with many students. You want to do this in a manner such that the dog doesn't resent it or associate it too much with you. We used David Dikeman's method. This is the first part.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sgk7d_ABw


I like that Samba, I'm going to try it with Halo! She's doing really well on walks on the paved path by the lake, even with tons of distractions, but for some reason she's OBSESSED with grass.







There are some big grassy fields inside the park entrance where I can work with her to keep her focus. I did a little of the walking around unpredictably on a 6 ft leash, but I'm going to try it this way on a long line.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

When I take Glory for a walk, she is on a 15 foot long line, and we alternate between heeling and "go play!" H15A5H1, heeling is important to me too, and when we are out and about in public, she is almost always at a heel. However, when we are on a walk in our neighborhood, sometimes I like to let her explore a bit and sniff around, like Diane said (on a long line of course, there are problem dogs in my neighborhood). So, what we do is heel for a few minutes, then I give the command "go play" for a few minutes, in which she sniffs around and gets to be a dog (on the long line). The "go play" is like a reward for her excellent heeling. Then, I call her back and we repeat, so it's like a game to her! The only time she is ever off leash (or off long line) though is when we are out hiking. I've known 3 dogs in the past 6 months that have been hit by cars, 2 have died, and I'm hoping for the best for the 3rd one.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaThe change of direction method can be useful. We have used this method with a good deal of success with many students. You want to do this in a manner such that the dog doesn't resent it or associate it too much with you. We used David Dikeman's method. This is the first part.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sgk7d_ABw


I am just reading this thread, but this was an amazing video!! Great post! Thanks!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was kinda reluctant to post the Dikeman stuff but since abruptly changing direction was mentioned, I thought I would give it a go. It is not operant conditioning but is really fairly old school as the dog must learn to avoid correction. I spend so much time teaching my dogs what I expect before going to the corrective phase, that I sometimes have mixed feelings about this method.

It can be very quickly effective though. One thing I have noticed is that the dogs soon learn it is their responsibility to keep their focus on the handler. The way David does it, there is not the conflict I see with the close up jerk, jerk, jerking of old style training. If you use this to get the dog to understand its responsibility and then also incorporate operant conditing, marker training and reward in your training work, I think attitude won't suffer. 

Dogs are actually very physical creatures and don't seem to resent some physical correcting. What they don't understand is human upset emotion. David does a good job at keeping emotion and conflict from the picture. The dogs don't really seem to associate the correction with him even.


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## dnh314 (Jan 28, 2010)

Samba said:


> The change of direction method can be useful. We have used this method with a good deal of success with many students. You want to do this in a manner such that the dog doesn't resent it or associate it too much with you. We used David Dikeman's method. This is the first part.
> 
> YouTube - Dikeman dog training : Lesson # 1- Attention training


thank you so much for posting this video i literally taught my dog to stop pulling and follow me instead of going off and doing her own thing in 30 minutes =) petsmart couldn't do this and a private independent trainer i paid couldn't get this done yay!!!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am glad you had success!


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I have used Dikeman's method too (which I saw here in another thread) and am amazed by it, I probably sound like a broken record when I recommend it to anyone with attention/heeling or forging problems.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Holy cow.

I watched the vid and took Hope out to a soccer field with a 30' long line on her prong collar and what a difference. Her big issue in the year I have had her has always been inability to pay attention.

She got the end of the long line twice, and it seems all the stuff I've been working on for the last year came together. She started paying more attention than ever and heeled on command quite nicely today. She did better at class tonight then ever.

It would never do anything for Kaya though, she never hits the end of a leash, and never gets far away from me. She's usually pushing into my leg she is so insecure about any environment she's not familiar with. She won't even drag a long cotton line.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

H15A5H1 said:


> my goal is to always have my gsd walking in a heeling position next to me. i thought that was the norm. is this too much to ask right now out of a 8month old? i just want him to develop good habits and stay by my side.


When I take my ADULT dogs for a walk I don't expect them to be in a heel position the whole time. As long as they don't pull and they come back to a formal heel position when I ask them (when cars, bikes, people, etc go by us) then they can walk where-ever they want.

When I do ask for a formal heel I make sure to pick up my pace. It's very boring for a dog to walk a long way in a set position with nothing to do. Keeping the pace brisk at least keeps their mind from wandering too much.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Samba said:


> David does a good job at keeping emotion and conflict from the picture. The dogs don't really seem to associate the correction with him even.


But that doesn't mean that they aren't stressed.

Take a look at the Borzoi. That dog is TOTALLY stressed out. At the 5:00 minute mark he talks about how they have been walking around with a few minutes rest between each lag. But look at the dog. It is PANTING like crazy.

That is STRESS. I prefer not to use stress to train my dogs - unless it's as a completely last resort.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

It's an aversive method, it's going to cause some stress.

But a year of trying every method I could find, and having Hope lunge into her flat collar wasn't exactly non stressful for her either.

I can't figure exactly how this accomplished it, but it seems to have lowered the value of distractions or raised the value of paying attention to me and my movements outside. And in just about 10 minutes.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I tried a modified (actually, very modified, lol!) version of Dikeman's method a few times with Halo. I hadn't planned to do it, but at the end of a long training walk at the lake I was walking past one of the grassy meadows and there were a couple of geese out there and I thought that would be an interesting distraction. I had her on a 4 foot leash and did not have my long line with me, so I used that. I hooked the loop over my wrist and walked out purposefully towards the geese. I went 20-25 paces in each direction, but did not stop at the corners, and when she was next to me I did mark and give her a treat. I think going further in one direction before turning made a difference, rather than doing lots of turns and circles. She was actually great with the geese, she did lunge towards them once when something spooked them as we were walking towards them and they all flew up in the air at once, but when they were just standing there on the grass she looked at them with interest, but didn't pull towards them at all. 

I've done it twice more since then, on a 6 ft leash, for maybe 10-20 minutes each time at the end of our walk, and each time she's more with me than she was the previous time, trotting to keep up, and looking up at me.


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## gg4000 (Mar 25, 2010)

Same problem. Nico will heel and not pull, but too far ahead, and making a left turn is hard because he does not see me.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Dikeman's cure for that is to quickly turn around and go the other way. Turning left is used when the dog is crowding the left leg. If he's forging, go the other way and grab the leash tight so there is a correction when he hits the end. He'll learn that he needs to know where you are, lest you change directions, so he'll stay in a spot where he can clearly see you.


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