# Makes me want to cry...



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1LjkGP091g&feature=plcp

Being a son of the 2xVA1 it's clear what is being rewarded at the highest levels.
This is one of the most important SL kennels in Croatia: ** Kennel name removed by Admin. Breeder bashing isn't allowed even for foreign kennels**


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

That is disgusting. 

It's also why we need people like Fast on this board.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I may not know a whole lot about breeding, but I know dogs aren't suppose to look like that. That's just plain sad.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It is sad but please do not take a dog that clearly has something wrong and use it as an example of show line dogs in general. I've been to many shows and now handle other people's dogs at shows and that puppy would NOT have won under any judge I've shown under. It definitely would have received a harsh critique or just plain been excused because there is something wrong with that dog. Maybe things are overlooked in other parts of the world but that would not fly at the shows I attend. The last show I photographed many dogs got negative critiques for being too loose, too down on the hocks, etc and they were nowhere near as bad as that puppy.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Liesje said:


> It is sad but please do not take a dog that clearly has something wrong and use it as an example of show line dogs in general. I've been to many shows and now handle other people's dogs at shows and that puppy would NOT have won under any judge I've shown under. It definitely would have received a harsh critique or just plain been excused because there is something wrong with that dog. Maybe things are overlooked in other parts of the world but that would not fly at the shows I attend. The last show I photographed many dogs got negative critiques for being too loose, too down on the hocks, etc and they were nowhere near as bad as that puppy.


Excellent point.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

haha...how predictable. 
I knew _exactly_ which video it was before I even opened it up. This video has been passed around time and time again. It's great fodder to use against the SL. So let's go ahead and pick terrible examples of SL. Post unflattering videos of them and let's have a collective free for all. I can't wait for the usual "bottle necking, Canto, backmassing, breeding away from Max, roach back" comments when the peanut gallery comes on in full force. 

Thanks Lies. I agree. If we had a pup like this, it would be given away - that's how bad the structure is. Who wants to present a hock walker in the ring? Never mind that it would be a useless sport prospect with such terrible movement. So please, don't unfairly drag our dogs through the mud to make a point. Yes, the SL have problems. We are aware for that, and there are those of us that want to improve the SL. But the breed as a WHOLE has problems. So to repost old videos for the sheer purpose of ridicule seems pointless to me. But anyway, carry on 

Jack's Dad: why do we need Fast to tell you that video is bad? I can't find you one SL person that I know that will condone that video or that puppy's structure.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

look at the other dogs in the video , especially the adult in the same pen -- pup is very similar , the dogs in the background similiar , in degrees - all hunchbacked


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

carmspack said:


> look at the other dogs in the video , especially the adult in the same pen -- pup is very similar , the dogs in the background similiar , in degrees - all hunchbacked


Some have weird curly tails too. I didn't like any of them.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

The dogs don't look all that good in confirmation as many have posted. I would like to comment on the fact that the dogs don't have any shade in those kennels. I'm not sure of the climate where the video was taken but wouldn't it be better to have a roof over the kennel runs to avoid sun exposure and rain. It sure is a nice roomy place otherwise. I would love to have all that space.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah this is like finding the one breeder in the United States that breeds super prey driven GSDs that act more like Malanois and don't calm down ever and saying all working lines are like that. For a breeder to have a puppy like that they have to have some crazy angulated dogs in their lines and are clearly selecting for them if that is the puppy they chose to keep back. It's horrible to look at, but its like the "collie" nosed GSDs in the American ring, some breeders just breed for those traits.

The bigger worry is WHY these people think that this is the standard, or why these are the dogs that they are used to and think they are the standard of the breed. I agree with Lies in that this puppy would never be put up at any show that I have been to...but there are plenty of instances where you see dogs with clearly incorrect physical qualities that get put up and then win championships and then get bred.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Judges have the right to withhold ribbons and ratings. One thing I give props to the AKC scene for is that I've heard of judges withholding ribbons/placements whereas in SV I think that is more rare. If there's a small class or even just one dog it seems that dog always gets the top rating unless there is a glaring fault. If a dog is not V quality then give him SG even if he is the winner of the class.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> Jack's Dad: why do we need Fast to tell you that video is bad? I can't find you one SL person that I know that will condone that video or that puppy's structure.


We don't need Fast to tell us the video is bad.

We need to quit losing GSD experienced people. I learn from experienced people whether I agree or disagree doesn't matter. If we don't have enough of them the board turns into a chat room with little substance.

I might add that you are the one bringing up back massing, hock walking etc...
You did such a good job no one else will need to.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

pyratemom said:


> The dogs don't look all that good in confirmation as many have posted. I would like to comment on the fact that the dogs don't have any shade in those kennels. I'm not sure of the climate where the video was taken but wouldn't it be better to have a roof over the kennel runs to avoid sun exposure and rain. It sure is a nice roomy place otherwise. I would love to have all that space.


????
Runs are connected by small doors to wooden rooms so they can choose to be on indoors or outdoors kennels.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

> We don't need Fast to tell us the video is bad.
> 
> We need to quit losing GSD experienced people. I learn from experienced people whether I agree or disagree doesn't matter. If we don't have enough of them the board turns into a chat room with little substance.


I don't disagree with you there. I very much enjoy Fast. But that thread was closed so I doubt there is any arguing over his ban. He broke the rules (whatever they may be) and probably won't be allowed back. It is a great disservice to the board, but the ones in control get to decide who to keep and who not to keep. There are other GSD forums out there with less moderating, you might have better luck there. 



> I might add that you are the one bringing up back massing, hock walking etc...
> You did such a good job no one else will need to.


It's predictable and generally how these threads go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

qbchottu said:


> I don't disagree with you there. I very much enjoy Fast. But that thread was closed so I doubt there is any arguing over his ban. He broke the rules (whatever they may be) and probably won't be allowed back. It is a great disservice to the board, but the ones in control get to decide who to keep and who not to keep. There are other GSD forums out there with less moderating, you might have better luck there.
> 
> 
> It's predictable and generally how these threads go.


Actually, I think individuals decide to break rules or not. No one should feel that their knowledge and experience with the breed is so important that they say whatever they want because the board won't stand for them to be banned. 

Fast got himself banned for breaking the rules multiple times. Big hairy deal. The mods and admins do not pick and choose who is important here and who should go. 

Good riddance. The truly knowledgeable and experienced people who are willing to share, do a great job of it without putting people and dogs down, or breaking rules as though they are God's Gift to the German Shepherd Chatrooms.

Here is my hump-backed Vegas daughter:


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm sorry I'm a bit naive but what was in that video that got people so riled up? I saw a dog run? With a few GSDs? An indoor enclosure? And one pup that maybe limped? 

I don't get it? :'-(

Educate me...In simple terms...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I enjoy outspoken and blunt people. There are a handful of truly knowledgeable people on this board and I greatly enjoy their feedback rather than reading the same warmed over info parroted by the same handful of posters. 

Look to the FB groups or pdb. That to me is honest discussion and exchange. People get heated, knowledge is thrown around and I learn a lot from those that have "been there, done that". The problem here is that a small vocal group of armchair experts tend to keep a status quo and the rest of us are more than happy to drink their koolaid. That doesn't do any of us any good. We need people like Fast, PaddyD, msvette2u, Freestep etc. They might be spicy, but that is a positive in my eyes. 

Dog people aren't the nicest people and the "experts" can be even more caustic. But lets be honest, this board is heavily moderated and that is because of who is in control of the board. Not saying that as a negative, but that is what it is. Who said the mods picked and chose which members to ban? I simply stated the facts behind his ban. He did what was not allowed by the board and the ones in control banned him. I can certainly see why this board has started to cater more to the non-confrontational, companion dog topics, and the those in the know get quieter as the time goes on.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Zeeva said:


> I'm sorry I'm a bit naive but what was in that video that got people so riled up? I saw a dog run? With a few GSDs? An indoor enclosure? And one pup that maybe limped?
> 
> I don't get it? :'-(
> 
> Educate me...In simple terms...


The pup is walking on its hocks. The conformation is very poor and exaggerated. Showline dogs are frequently criticized for overangulation and exaggerated features. This video shows the pup walking almost entirely on its hocks. It gets everyone riled up because it's added fodder that SL are ruining the breed


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Zeeva said:


> And one pup that maybe limped?
> Educate me...In simple terms...


What you're seeing isn't a limp. This is what some GSD's are being bred to look like.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> He did what was not allowed by the board and the ones in control banned him. I can certainly see why this board has started to cater more to the non-confrontational, companion dog topics, and the those in the know get quieter as the time goes on.


This was my point. To me there is less and less knowledge on the board.

I can only speculate that some just get tired of the internet thing or they go to other forums.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> This video shows the pup walking almost entirely on its hocks. It gets everyone riled up because it's added fodder that SL are ruining the breed


I never think of the SL's as a whole when people post these kinds of video's. It's just another bad example of the breed. Whether it's a working or show line really doesn't matter, it's just wrong. IMHO


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

qbchottu said:


> I enjoy outspoken and blunt people. There are a handful of truly knowledgeable people on this board and I greatly enjoy their feedback rather than reading the same warmed over info parroted by the same handful of posters.
> 
> Look to the FB groups or pdb. That to me is honest discussion and exchange. People get heated, knowledge is thrown around and I learn a lot from those that have "been there, done that". The problem here is that a small vocal group of armchair experts tend to keep a status quo and the rest of us are more than happy to drink their koolaid. That doesn't do any of us any good. We need people like Fast, PaddyD, msvette2u, Freestep etc. They might be spicy, but that is a positive in my eyes.
> 
> Dog people aren't the nicest people and the "experts" can be even more caustic. But lets be honest, this board is heavily moderated and that is because of who is in control of the board. Not saying that as a negative, but that is what it is. Who said the mods picked and chose which members to ban? I simply stated the facts behind his ban. He did what was not allowed by the board and the ones in control banned him. I can certainly see why this board has started to cater more to the non-confrontational, companion dog topics, and the those in the know get quieter as the time goes on.


He got himself banned. If you want to be angry, be angry at him for getting himself banned. You don't have to sugar coat things, to be respectful. There are rules on this forum, and it would be a lot worse to have what you want, where people who are considered knowledgeable (by whom?) would get a free-pass to be condescending, rude, foul-mouthed, etc. The mod squad does have some leeway on how to enforce the rules. My guess is that after there is a warning, there are several that play into the decision to suspend someone, or to ban someone. But, I don't really know. I would hope they are doing this with regards to the offense or offenses, and not doing it with regards to some people being more valuable than other people.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I posted the link to this video here a couple weeks ago and it was promptly removed.

This is disgusting and cruel.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Wow, I didn't know Fast was banned. While I think you can have experience and knowledgeable and at the same time be constructive and try to educate others instead of only insulting... the first time I agree with him and he goes banned. Am I in trouble then?

Thankfully there are better places to discuss real information than this board and the people I respect is there too.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Catu said:


> Wow, I didn't know Fast was banned. While I think you can have experience and knowledgeable and at the same time be constructive and try to educate others instead of only insulting... the first time I agree with him and he goes banned. Am I in trouble then?
> 
> Thankfully there are better places to discuss real information than this board and the people I respect is there too.


You didn't personally insult another member. Fast did, probably one times too many.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I was only joking. While he was in my ignore list since long ago it still saddens me when moderation becomes censorship.


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