# At our wits end...HELP.



## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

When we adopted our pup 2 months ago, we had no warning about the level of financial and emotional stress we were going to go through. In a nutshell, our 1 year old dog has severe separation anxiety, aggression towards our 2 cats, and is showing signs of prey behavior around small children including lunging and barking at them as well as nipping. 

We planned to adopt when we did because we figured that we would have 6 uninterrupted weeks to work on her training (summer break).

My husband called yesterday and basically said he doesn't think we are going to be able to work with Regen enough by the time we are back at work full time in August to have her safely alone AND in combination with some incidents with the cats and 2 toddlers, he is at his wits end. 

If we have been doing counterconditioning for separation anxiety (used Patricia McConnell's "I'll be home soon" protocol) for the past 5 weeks and working daily with same for cats and there isn't improvement, is there hope?

We hired a trainer (referral through the Karen Pryor Academy) and worked with her for several sessions. She suggested that when we were able to never leave her alone longer than her threshold, she would improve rapidly. She thought we would be up to an hour or more over the course of a month. She has not been alone at all above her frustration threshold for the past 6 weeks. We're up to 15 minutes, and that's only if she has a RMB that takes her longer than that. Kongs and the like go untouched. 

She is still very reactive with the cats and the one time that one ran out from the "safe room," she ran after her, attacked and had her pinned and was going for the throat (we go her off). This is after multiple a day sessions with using the clicker and rewarding for calm behavior (she still tracks them whenever they are put away and she is out). 

And she seems as anxious as before with separation, and we are running out of options for how to deal with when we go back to work at the beginning of August. Not sure if drugs would help? We can't afford daily doggie daycare at $28/day and it seems to stressful for her on a daily basis as well. 

The last thing is that she reacts to small children like prey...and this is very worrisome. We've had her around babies and toddlers several times (on a leash) and she always barks and lunges as soon as they start moving or if they are excited. She nipped at my best friend's baby when she was carrying her, and though she didn't break the skin, it was scary. My husband was walking her and a little girl ran up without asking first or warning, and Regen went after her. 

This is all our fault for not getting a dog that had already been screened to see if she could accept cats or kids. But I am wondering how much we can do or if our cats will have to live in one room as long as we have Regen out...and if we have kids, if they'll be safe around her. We can't afford daily doggie daycare on one teacher salary.

I know this is a problem created by two stupid humans (though I do think we've done a lot with her, she has learned every obedience task we've taught her and since summer started a month ago, she completed a 6 week obedience class and she pretty much is "in training" all day, gets lots of walks and mental stimulation), but at what point do we rethink? We have spent about $1500 in 2 months on training, behavior specialist consultation, doggie daycare, and vet consultations, and we are can't keep up with that level of spending on her. We budgeted to have a dog and keep up with high quality food and training, but this is much more of a financial commitment than we had even imagined.

Feeling very overwhelmed and not sure what to do next. We're calling the same trainer to see if she has ideas and the rescue organization that we adopted her from to see if they have any resources.

Is there some solution we aren't thinking of? The hardest part is being on house arrest because of the SA, but it will become a much more significant problem when we start working again. We plan on having kids in the next 2-3 years and most of our friends have small children. 

Help. Please.


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

I'm not sure this helps but I would start looking for a new home for her. If she's showing aggression to your kids you need to look after them first. You'll never forgive yourself if she bites a child and does damage. If this were to happen she could be euthanized, not to mention the emotional scars the child would have.

Others may disagree but that's what I would do. I don't envy your position.

I should also clarify, when I say rehome, it means to someone who knows how she behaves and does not have young children.

good luck!


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Sounds like you are doing the best you can but I agree issues regarding aggression and getting along with cats should have been considered earlier. How old is the dog, and how does it react to one on one . Getting an older dog can take some time to even earn your trust let alone want to please you yet.


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## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree with the other guys, seems you are doing the best you can and this is not only a stressful time for your family but the dog is probably feeling it too, best bet is find a person to take her that can work with her.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I do not think it is aggression at all. Looking at all your past posts...looks like she has never learned bite inhibition and has high prey drive.... My friend had a foster like that...he used to leave big black welts on her...whenever he got wound up in crazy play mode...he would grab. My dogs still forget themselves and will grab at the kids...if the kids are running around. Mya used to actually run them down...grab their ankles and pull them down. Herding. It's definitely a training issue...hope others with more knowlege can weigh in. 

I would make sure the cats have a room that is baby gated off so they have a place to escape to...and I would never leave them all alone loose together. If you go out...I would crate the dog...or lock the cats up. 

It's too bad the rescue didn't screen her better? Was she not in a foster home? I can understand cats...but in adopting to someone with cats...they should have attempted a temp test with cats...or at least said...she seems to have high prey drive...and had some idea whether it was a good idea or not. Now kids is a biggie...was she not living in a foster home? I'm surprised they would have no knowledge on how she would be with kids...again...temp testing should have been done if she was with rescue.  

In the end...if she was adopted through rescue...she will have to go back to the rescue if you can no longer keep. I hope though...that people here can give you some good training tools. 2 months is really too early to give up...I feel this is all workable. Good luck!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Definitely call the rescue group. They will hopefully have resources - former foster, etc. who will be able to give you help and guidance. They would be my first call.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Did the Rescue you got her from give you no indication of some of her issues? I also would be calling the Rescue group for some help.

If you think Regen is to much for you to handle, I also think it may be best to find her a new home or return her to the rescue(


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Probably in the contract that she goes back to the rescue, who will want this information ASAP - so that they can help, I hope!


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

The rescue had her for two weeks before adopting her out, and she was staying with the rescue coordinator. She has her own 3 dogs and keeps rescues separately in a kennel (and then works with them inside/outside). Regen was great with other dogs but also very submissive, apparently if she was showing separation anxiety then, the rescue coordinator didn't pick up on it. We asked about cats (and even squirrels, to see if she seemed to have a high prey drive) and she just didn't know.

The separation anxiety is the most unmanageable thing right now. We can't continue to pay for daycare and there are times when the daycare isn't open and we need to not be there, and I'm not sure what to do with her during those times so that she won't hurt herself. The fact that she can't be trusted with kids and cats makes it harder to find anywhere that she could stay during the day.

And I don't know if dogs with a high prey drive can be trained to be safe around cats and small kids (she's bad with small dogs, too). 

Are there options we aren't thinking of?? I feel like we never should have gotten a dog without a separate 10,000 bank account just for her.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree that it doesn't sound like a good fit at all!! The trainer we had for our obedience class has been training for 24 yrs, has trained service dogs, all kinds of titles, etc. She rescued a shepherd 4 yrs ago, you'd think all would go well with her experience. Last week the shepherd viciously attacked her retriever, completely unprovoked and she had no choice but to have the shepherd put down. Looking back she said that the shepherd was never completely trustworthy and now feels guilty for not finding a different home before something like this happened. So don't feel stupid, it can happen to the best, most experienced of us. Sounds like it's time to place the dog in a different home.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Sorry I didn't phrase as a question - have you called the rescue to let them know?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Some dogs are in rescue because of their temperament, owner dumps them because they can't handle them. It seems most pups are dumped at 8 to 10 months when they become too large to handle and no longer that cute puppy...and the owner becomes afraid of them.
I've had Onyx since she was 7 weeks and she was like this at 1 yr too. Though she didn't have the separation issues, she was very reactive to kids, dogs, strangers. If someone else ended up with her, I'm sure she'd be a shelter statistic too.

Too bad this rescue didn't keep her longer to correctly assess Regen's temperament. Two weeks is nothing, the dog isn't even showing true personality yet. 
I hope a behaviorist can help this poor dog, if there is one available. 
I'm sorry your experience is going this route. It seems every day another story like yours is getting posted.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Did you get this dog from a rescue? I don't think it would be a failure (but an acceptance of reality) to return this particular dog and wait for one that may better fit your family/lifestyle/background and experience with dogs.

It can be harder to get an older dog. Some come with baggage. Some come with zero training and experience. Which in a bigger dog can be a big problem.

This just sounds like it was an inappropriate match for your family.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Thanks for your replies. We did contact the rescue and the trainer we've been working with.

We are not wanting to give up on her just yet, but feel like we need some support or help with the separation anxiety because we will have no feasible options for working and having her come August 1. 

With the cats and kids, I think the main concern is WILL she get better with work? Is using a muzzle in the meantime cruel?

She is an amazing dog in so many other ways, but she was clearly abused and is still so nervous around people. She is also still a big puppy, and some of her behavior that people would be more permissive of in a puppy-looking dog is terrifying in a big 65 pound dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If it's a good fitted muzzle, I don't think it's cruel.

Problem is that's only dealing with the management not training out the problem. So you do need a plan as you go forward so you can get the muzzle off ASAP.

I DO know that if you start working on the 'leave it' command with clicker/treats, that's a good start. Cause you are rewarding your dog for NOT going after something. Rather than having to punish your dog for the chasing.

You need to start with the clicker and 'leave it' with something easy (like another piece of food. Then gradually add the cat (with leashed dog) with the cat being the leave it. You can't rush the training and it works WAY better and faster with the clicker.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Runswithdogs said:


> Thanks for your replies. We did contact the rescue and the trainer we've been working with.
> 
> We are not wanting to give up on her just yet, but feel like we need some support or help with the separation anxiety because we will have no feasible options for working and having her come August 1.
> 
> ...


What did the rescue (and the trainer) say? 

Reading through the posts I think you have received some thoughtful responses. Using a muzzle is not the way to go IMO - this can sometimes make dogs more aggressive not less, especially if it isn't introduced properly. There is no guarantee that she will get better with work,though it's something you will obviously want to try. Some dogs do, some don't. I have always had dogs with high prey drive, and at one time also had cats. Everyone had to be kept separate, for ever. The cats lived upstairs and were confined in a bedroom overnight when the dogs came up to sleep. During the day, when the dogs were outside, the cats had the run of the house. We made it work, and neither cat ever got hurt (both of them were very savvy) - but it isn't an ideal situation as you can imagine. Both the dogs we had at the time were rehomed, and older when we got them. Would (more, we did work on it) training have taught them to cohabitate peacefully with the cats? In my estimation the answer was no - their over the top prey drive meant they could never be trusted, and we could never let our guard down. So we didn't set them up for failure, we created a life style where everyone was happy, and never the twain did meet. 

I think it is great that you have been willing to commit to this girl as much as you have. I don't have children, so can't help you with this aspect of your problem. I've never had separation anxiety problems on a large scale - crating (with a blanket over the crate), leaving a radio on, giving the dog some sort of interactive toy - like a stuffed Kong - has been enough. I always made sure that all our dogs also had a ton of exercise, so that when we left they were ready for some down time. 

I wish you all the luck in the world with this girl - but at the end of the day I also think she might be better off in a home with no (young) kids or cats, and with a person who is GSD savvy and has a lot of time for her - perhaps a retiree, or a person who works out of their home. It is unfortunate that the foster didn't keep her longer to properly evaluate her. I agree with onyx'girl, 2 weeks isn't nearly enough. Please let us know how it goes....
_______________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I would try an e-collar and muzzle along with having kids feed her treats.
E-collars have worked wonders for me but it's important that she doesn't associate kids with a jolt, only aggression with with a jolt and kids with rewards. 
As for keeping your cats separated, our house has French doors with the glass removed to keep the air flowing around the house but keep the dog fur out. You cats could use it as an escape door if she gets too rough.
You may also want to try natural sedatives and crating her while you are out. We did this with our 3yo adopted dog and after a few months she got used to us going out and trusting that we are coming back every time. She's crate free now and can be left alone all day.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

I am sorry but to muzzle and or e-collar a dog that doesn't even feel comfortable in her ""new surroundings"" yet just doesn't seem fair to the dog. The rescue screwed up putting this dog into an environment completely out of her ability to fit in, and the owners are doing everything possible but I feel it is time to return this girl back to the rescue and allow someone who does not have cats and kids to adopt this girl so she can enjoy her life. Having a muzzle or shock collar is not going to help a dog that hasn't even had enough time to adjust let alone the willingness to want to please you yet. jmo


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Just to clarify, we do have two cats but no kids. We are planning to have kids in 2-3 years. We have many friends with young children though (who used to come over to our house and now don't). 

We have been working on "leave it" (with the clicker) since the 2nd week we had her. She will now leave anything we drop on the floor and will focus away from the cats when they are far enough away, but when we started working on proximity she has much more difficulty. 

With kids, should we use the same approach? 

Any ideas re: the separation anxiety? I think we are willing to give more time and training to the kids/cats if we can figure out what the heck to do with her when we go back to working in August. We simply can't afford to continue doggie daycare, especially not 5 days a week. 

If we used a muzzle, it would be as a safety measure while we continued to train, not a solution. 

Will post when we hear from the rescue and trainer. I would love more ideas for dealing with the separation. The wire crate isn't working, we're seeing if a baby-gated mud room might be better.

It feels like a LOT to handle...she has been a full-time job since we got her since we weren't willing to leave her alone when she clearly couldn't handle it.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

When I got Mya she had SEVERE SA. She was my first foster, my first gsd, I was not on any forums, never heard of SA. I was totally taken off guard. Came home after the first time I left her in our home (uncrated) and found huge holes gouged out of our walls......feces everywhere....door jams literally ripped off...screens shredded...and a hole in our coach. I was floored! Ok...so now we crate. Yeh..and we'd come home to a dog and crate covered in feces, urine and drool. Luckily she wasn't a dog that escaped.
Actually a very nice family ended up wanting to adopt her...but my heart went out to her...and I loved her even more due to her issues..it made me feel so sorry for her...she had been abandoned in her past...I understood her fears of being left again...and I wanted to help her. 

I have to admit..I sat on my porch and cried many times...feeling as though I could never leave my house again. 

We would crate her..and leave for short periods of time..to get her used to the fact that we were leaving..but coming back. Every time..was the same findings a dog covered in feces, urine and drool. But over time....we noticed less mess....until one day...no feces...then no urine....then eventually...no drool. It took time....months. I'd say we actually crated her for about a year. But in the end...she earned crate freedom and turned out to be the most trustworthy dog when we weren't home..that we ever had. She was perfect. 

It takes time and patience. 

I would crate in a secure crate (I'm sorry...I missed why wire crate doesn't work for you? Can you secure it?).
While you are not working now...I would do the short stints...working up to longer and longer periods of time. 

I would give her something to keep her occupied...a kong with frozen PB or something like that.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

She tries to get out of the crate and has hurt her nose by trying to bend the door with her muzzle. She hasn't escaped it yet, but I worry about her hurting herself trying.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

*at our wits end*

Have you ever considered an aluminum truck dog box? While this may sound extreme, I have seen messages on other rescue forums of which I am a member where these boxes are suggested for dogs with severe separation anxiety as they are virtually indestructible. They are more expensive than a standard wire or plastic dog crate, but might be an alternative if you need a safe solution. Purchasing one on-line that is used often helps bring the price down to a more reasonable level also.

Shannon


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Hey, I have a Malinois that's almost 5 years old now. She can never be around small children for the same reason. If it moves, she's going to grab for it. And little kids really move a lot! I know it's not aggression, but it's still a bite.

I will agree that this should be a rehome situation.


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

This is a multi-level dilemna...kids, cats, separation. It is hard to figure out what to work on first. The costs of all this training may exhaust your resources. I am so sorry you are going through this and sorry that I don't have all the answers!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

What myamom said 
Our dog was causing me separation anxiety anxiety. The first thing I had to do was to convince myself if we give her away it will just make her worse, if we give her to a pound they will just put her in a kennel anyway and I couldn't quit my job so she just had to get used to the crate. Each day got a little better and trusted us a little bit more that we're coming back and after a few months, no SA at all.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I have a GSD with mild SA, so I sort of know how you feel. He's not extreme, and kongs have helped, but we do have to bungee cord his cage because he has escaped numerous times and chewed/scratched drywall. 

the first thing I would suggest is turkey. It helped the most for us, I believe, and while I don't think Frag's SA is nearly as bad as yours, it is worth a try. Turkey has a chemical in it that causes calmness and makes people and animals tired/groggy. We worked with Frag's SA while having him full of turkey, and slowly weaning him from that while working on building up time. Also, I don't know where you're crating her at, but we found moving Frag's crate to the living room instead of the bedroom helped significantly. He's sleeping through the night just fine because he's tired, but is still away from us and realizes when he wakes up we're right there again and not going anywhere. HUGE amounts of exercise helped too. But we built up duration during the day. Full of turkey, we'd leave the room for a few seconds, come back and treat/praise and let him out. Wait a few minutes, then command him to go back in, leave the room for a minute, come back, repeat. We usually doubled the time we left up until a half hour, then went in 10 minute increments. 

How much exercise is she getting? If it's not a lot, that could be contributing to both her chasing and SA. I'd do much more than walks- swimming, running (how old is she, again?), and hardcore fetch everyday for a few hours, then work on chasing or the SA.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

She gets two walks a day plus fetch and usually 4 30-40 minute runs a week. We have heard conflicting things about the type of exercise she does (Turid Rugaas suggests that in stressed out dogs, running and fetch actually increase stress, I know this is not true for everyone). 

She is about 14 months old. We have considered the aluminum crates as a last resort, but are hoping we can find a solution that won't have her panicking in the crate still (but unable to get out). Just ordered "control unleashed"...will keep you all posted.

Our trainer got back to us to suggest baby-gating off a room and seeing if she's less anxious there (and hopefully won't escape), and also considering using medication while working on the counterconditioning with kids and cats. She also said using a muzzle when she might see kids is a good idea just to prevent an issue that would take the decision out of our hands.

We ended up not calling the rescue yet.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Wow, good for you and much luck!! Turkey contains L-Triptophan- that's why everybody's so sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner. I never thought of feeding it. Keep us posted


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## KMSlemons (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi there,

I feel like such a newbie in saying this, but have you considered calling or writing Cesar Milan? I watch the Dog Whisperer every single day and have gotten a ton of great tips from him. Perhaps he'd be willing to come to your home and rehabilitate your baby. I don't think I'd give up on the poor thing just yet. I think what might have happened in the past is that small children may have teased her through fencing or similar. An episode on the Dog Whisperer dealt exactly with this subject. There was a mean little Schnauzer that would attack a lady's grandchildren when they came over. Cesar taught the grandparents how to take control of the dog, then educated the son and the granddaughters. They each took turns coming into the house - no eye contact, no talk, no touch. I know that isn't really feasible with strangers, but maybe you have a friend with an older child that would be willing to do some exercises with you. As for the cats, there was another episode on that issue too. He crated the dog and brought the cat in the same room. Eventually the dog was let out once he was in a right frame of mind and they were permitted to walk around while supervised. I suppose everytime your GSD goes bonkers about the kitties you could crate her and show her that it's not acceptable. As for muzzles, I wouldn't personally use them. I was a dog groomer and we were supposed to tie up the mouths of aggressive dogs, but I found that it made them more aggressive toward me. I know I wasn't really any help, but maybe just maybe Cesar would come and help you. It can't hurt to try.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I think the OP needs help faster than it would take to get Cesar to travel to their home and help. The OP is considering calling a rescue because the situation needs to be dealth with now....
Good luck!


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## tkarsjens (Nov 30, 2009)

Regarding the SA - I don't know what you're doing exactly so forgive me if any of this is redundant. 

First, I would definately use a crate and not a room. A crate gives them less to think about and less to cope with. It has clearly defined boundaries. It's also safer for them.

Second, I would do everything I could to make that crate a positive. All meals would be fed in the crate, all toys and treats given in the crate and everytime I walked by it when the dog was loose I would toss a treat in there. Doesn't mean the door has to be closed for any of these things, but I would literally make everything positive the dog gets show up in that crate.

Third, I would impose as much structure as possible in the dog's life. I woud start on Nothing In Life is Free (which you can google if you don't know about it but you sound pretty informed). The more structure a dog has, the less decisions he has to make. This does sound to me like a submissive dog. When a dog is not a natural alpha and he has to make decisions, this can lead to anxiety. Submissive dogs are often the happiest and calmest when there is a lot of structure guiding their lives.

Fourth, I would densensitize the leaving part. We all have a routinue we do when we are leaving that our dogs pick up on (pick up keys, put on shoes, etc) so figure out what that is for you and literally do it over and over during the day. For example, you're making dinner, pick up your keys, put on your shoes, and go back to chopping chicken.  These lead up events are often what trigger the anxiety and by the time you leave, they are so worked up they can't think (in the red zone as Ceasar would say). So it's important to densensitize not just the being alone, but the whole process. And then of course also desensitize the being alone part too, but it sounds like you are doing that.

Last thing is when you do come home or come back to her, make sure it is a non-event. Also don't let her out the second you get home. After all, then you coming home is the positive and we want the whole thing to be positive. Let her out after you've been home awhile.

I don't know if these are things you've thought about or tried, but maybe they can help as you battle the SA.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## JazminsMomSami (Jun 29, 2010)

tkarsjens has some very helpful advice. Thank you!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

KMSlemons said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I feel like such a newbie in saying this, but have you considered calling or writing Cesar Milan? I watch the Dog Whisperer every single day and have gotten a ton of great tips from him. Perhaps he'd be willing to come to your home and rehabilitate your baby. I don't think I'd give up on the poor thing just yet. I think what might have happened in the past is that small children may have teased her through fencing or similar. An episode on the Dog Whisperer dealt exactly with this subject. There was a mean little Schnauzer that would attack a lady's grandchildren when they came over. Cesar taught the grandparents how to take control of the dog, then educated the son and the granddaughters. They each took turns coming into the house - no eye contact, no talk, no touch. I know that isn't really feasible with strangers, but maybe you have a friend with an older child that would be willing to do some exercises with you. As for the cats, there was another episode on that issue too. He crated the dog and brought the cat in the same room. Eventually the dog was let out once he was in a right frame of mind and they were permitted to walk around while supervised. I suppose everytime your GSD goes bonkers about the kitties you could crate her and show her that it's not acceptable. As for muzzles, I wouldn't personally use them. I was a dog groomer and we were supposed to tie up the mouths of aggressive dogs, but I found that it made them more aggressive toward me. I know I wasn't really any help, but maybe just maybe Cesar would come and help you. It can't hurt to try.


Cesar Milan would not help in this case, and I don't recommend him to anywone. He uses intimidation tactics, which could quickly exacerbate the aggression with children and cats in a fearful dog. 

Also, I don't believe he works with SA at all and I imagine if he did, the dog would digress without him there. He's all about the human not conveying emotion or anxiety, but the dog is doing that by himself without humans present. He manages people with their dogs through intimidation, and you cannot intimidate a dog to becoming less stressed. 



tkarsjens said:


> Regarding the SA - I don't know what you're doing exactly so forgive me if any of this is redundant.
> 
> First, I would definately use a crate and not a room. A crate gives them less to think about and less to cope with. It has clearly defined boundaries. It's also safer for them.


I don't think this is true of a crate and SA at all. Usually dogs with SA do MUCH better confined into a larger area such as a room than a crate. There's less stress and anxiety caused by such close confinement that they cannot move in.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

We have already gone through the whole desensitization procedure with keys, etc (the "I'll be home soon" protocol covers this). She doesn't react to most of those triggers now, but still will to being alone.

The crate is DEFINITELY worse for her when we are gone. She loves to sleep in her crate when we are home and often goes there when she has a bully stick or a bone. But the confined space seems to freak her out when she's alone. She can handle 25 minutes in the room not in the crate with a Kong but has trouble with even 10-15 minutes (even with a tasty bone or Kong) in the crate. We just found this out in the past 3 days after calling the trainer...she suggested ditching the crate just to see. Everyone had kept telling us to use the crate, so it didn't occur to us to see if she would be okay without it. I guess we were worried that she may trash the room and carpet if she was still anxious. 

We just bought an extra-tall extra-wide baby gate to gate off the mudroom...if she stays in there and doesn't hurt herself, we may have a temporary better solution. I worry that she could jump it if she got freaked out enough, though.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Even with an extra tall that she could jump, you could buy a standard or another tall to fit in the rest of the space of the doorway- just stack them to prevent her from jumping out.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not sure if anyone suggested this yet,,but I would leave a radio or tv on when your gone as well...


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## AvaLaRue (Apr 4, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm not sure if anyone suggested this yet,,but I would leave a radio or tv on when your gone as well...


That's a great idea. Also, when one of my Shihtzu's was younger, I had a "white noise maker" and put it on the heart beat setting. It would calm him right down.


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## tkarsjens (Nov 30, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I don't think this is true of a crate and SA at all. Usually dogs with SA do MUCH better confined into a larger area such as a room than a crate. There's less stress and anxiety caused by such close confinement that they cannot move in.


That hasn't been my experience at all IF the crate is introduced properly and it is made to be a positive place. That's why I mentioned so much about making the crate positive. If the dog does not have that training with the crate, then I think you're right. If the crate is another new thing or has no positive association to them (or worse, has negative associations) then of course that will add to anxiety.

The other issue is that a dog that is extremely destructive from SA can hurt themselves in a crate, but there are more dangers in a room. Electricity, glass, etc are just a few dangers you don't have to worry about in a crate.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

This dog should have come with her own charge card! 

I just hope the baby gate will be an acceptable solution...because we can give her time with cat and kid reactivity issues, but we definitely cannot afford an extra $300 a month in doggie daycare costs (on top of the $120/month she costs in just food and treats and toys).

Good thing she is so **** cute and quirky when she's not busy being an anxious bundle of lunging barking nerves... 

Thank you all so much for the advice and support and validation. I hope we are doing the right thing by keeping her. I guess if it gets to the point where it's the mortgage or the dog (which could happen quickly on one teacher income), we'll have to reconsider.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

tkarsjens said:


> That hasn't been my experience at all IF the crate is introduced properly and it is made to be a positive place. That's why I mentioned so much about making the crate positive. If the dog does not have that training with the crate, then I think you're right. If the crate is another new thing or has no positive association to them (or worse, has negative associations) then of course that will add to anxiety.
> 
> The other issue is that a dog that is extremely destructive from SA can hurt themselves in a crate, but there are more dangers in a room. Electricity, glass, etc are just a few dangers you don't have to worry about in a crate.
> 
> ...


Hm. This has not been my experience. My GSD LOVES his crate, but has very bad SA while in it for longer periods of time, that just randomly developed. He's never had a negative experience with the crate, he just doesn't like being it in and alone for so long, so he escapes it and is just fine in a room by himself, door closed and all.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Hm. This has not been my experience. My GSD LOVES his crate, but has very bad SA while in it for longer periods of time, that just randomly developed. He's never had a negative experience with the crate, he just doesn't like being it in and alone for so long, so he escapes it and is just fine in a room by himself, door closed and all.


I've had experience with both types of dogs. 

Niki had terrible S/A - I couldn't keep him in the house (he'd unlock and open windows and jump out). He went thru wire crates like they were made of melted butter. BUT when I got him a Vari-Kennel 700P crate he loved it and remained cool, calm and collected for the rest of his life.

His nephew Mac, who also has S/A is the reverse. He destroyed several crates including tearing the door off Niki's crate BUT he does fine having freedom of the house.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned either with regards to crating... but I use a very large (Great Dane) sized crate. My current foster had some separation anxiety when he came to me and like another poster said had real trouble with being confined (I have found that they do go hand in hand alot - not always!). He has NO problem with the huge crate and goes in willingly but drops to the ground and is dead weight if you try and put him in a 48" crate.

With rescues like the dog in this case, it's hard to have the time to build up positive associations with crate and could take a while to get them past the stress.

Hopefully, the gates in the mud room work but the super large crate (it's almost a room!) might be another option to try if you can. It's a bit of an eyesore but atleast I knew he was safe and not stressed. It helped that I had another dog at home with him and I left the tv on for a few weeks too.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

While you figure all of this out, have you thought of getting a roommate?
A friend of mine ended up keeping her ex from 10 years ago as a live-in housekeeper because they had a house together and neither one wanted to sell and move. She now has 2 kids and 2 dogs (and a husband) and he's unemployed and just takes care of the house/dogs/kids while she and her husband work.
Seems odd to the rest of the world but works well for them.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

Just wanted to update- we baby-gated off the mud room and while still anxious, she is able to handle up to an hour (UNCRATED) with a kong or raw bone alone in either our bedroom or the mud room. When we get home she is clearly anxious, but not in the same state that she is when in her crate. She also didn't attempt escape or chew anything. 

In the meantime, we're checking out possible daycare (meeting up with Miikasmom!) that is more affordable.

Her aggression with little dogs seems to be worse when she is on a leash. She has been at the dog park with dogs as small as 35 pounds and played well, but the same dogs would set her off if she was on a leash walking by them. 

Anyway, we are keeping her for now and continuing to see if we can change the environment and work on training enough to make her work for us. I just can't feel good about giving her back to the rescue knowing how traumatic it will be for her while she waits for a new home.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Runswithdogs said:


> In the meantime, we're checking out possible daycare (meeting up with Miikasmom!) that is more affordable.


*Can't wait to meet you and Regen!! :laugh:*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did not read all the posts. I notice you are in new mexico and I think that maybe, it would be too hot to kennel her outside for long periods, but what about in the garage with a small doggy door to a small secure kennel. Inside the garage, build a nice sized comfortable kennel.

I had a dog that could not do a crate while I was gone -- terrible. Did the kennel just fine. Not sure why, but it did not seem to her as clausterphobic. 

Inside the kennel, there would be nothing the dog could hurt herself on, or ingest or hurt of yours. 

When you get home from work, ignore her for a while, open the mail, say hi to the spouse, put dinner on, then go and bring her in -- no fan fare -- even keel. 

Limit the time she spends with anything that makes her nervous, and put her back in her safe place before it is overwhelming. 

In the morning, take her outside, play with the ball, or walk her, feed and water her in the kennel. Clean the potty area. Then go in, leaving her in her kennel. When you leave, no fan fare, no good by, even keel. 

If you can find a wonderful home willing to deal with her SA, then fine, but I think you must realize that it is far more likely that you will probably provide her with more love and attention, even how I suggest it, than a new home will. Hopefully, all evening she will be inside with you, and you can take her for walks, etc. At night she can sleep next to or in your bed. And during the day when you are working she is in a very secure peaceful comfortable safe place where she can relax.

Invite your friends with small children over and tell them the dog will be kenneled in the garage during their visit.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Runswithdogs said:


> In the meantime, we're checking out possible daycare (meeting up with Miikasmom!) that is more affordable.


Regen's first day with us was Monday. I think both dogs had a wonderful time...they played, played, and played some more. Below are a couple of pictures.

*Regen. Mikka is in the bushes.*










Mikka and Regen. Mikka is the one with the Vikings collar on. 









*Just Mikka.*










http://www.imagehostplus.com/v2/usr/2750/Mikka11281494029550.jpg


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

They make such a cute couple of friends!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Great update, nice to see her having fun


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

A new post coming soon but...I was just looking through my old posts and wanted to give thanks to everyone who encouraged us to keep going with Regen and gave advice during this crisis period.
Regen is a much different dog now. I am so glad we didn't try and rehome her when it felt like we would never be able to leave the house again!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Runswithdogs said:


> A new post coming soon but...I was just looking through my old posts and wanted to give thanks to everyone who encouraged us to keep going with Regen and gave advice during this crisis period.
> 
> Regen is a much different dog now. I am so glad we didn't try and rehome her when it felt like we would never be able to leave the house again!


What great news and can't wait to see the update! Better have some pictures


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

I posted a thread with some pictures here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d-lots-pictures-regen-her-new-gsd-friend.html


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