# Opinions on this pup?



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This is Vinca von Sontausen, pictured here at 4.5 months. She's self-stacked! I have had a few people tell me she could do well in AKC conformation, but I know they prefer more topline. She is all German working lines and I think it would be fun to get a working dog into the AKC ring, but of course she must fit the standard and be a good representative. What do you think? I also posted these photos in the "Conformation" forum, before I realized there was a "Critique" forum.


















I tried to get some shots of her in motion, but this was the best I could do:



















A couple of headshots


















Personality photos:


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think she could rate well in the German Conformation....a nice VP rating.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you might do best in all-breed shows, but the dog is nice, and I think she has a nice topline. Good expression.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

If she were mine I would show her in AKC all-breed shows. She is very nice.


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## istie (Jul 18, 2007)

She has a lovely high wither in stance, looks like she has lovely reach and drive.
I would give it a go if her breeder agrees


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Well, I can tell you that from what I can see in the photos I like her a lot. I believe that she is show worthy.
AKC is my only concern.
She is of German blood and she looks it. You might not find may AKC judges that will like her. I speak from experience. Eventough I train the puppies that we keep as therapy dogs, I thought it might be fun to try some showing. I have (or had) shown ARA in two Sieger shows. She did quiet well. She has shown in three AKC all breed shows. Because she is German bred, she stood out like a sore thumb. No sign of cow hocks, no steep rear angulation, strong secondary sexual characteristics - very much like your girl. We got trashed every time!! One judge told me point blank "there is nothing about her that I like".
I don't mean to be totally negative but you have to consider the source and be prepared to be disappointed. Perhaps there are some folks out there that have had similar experiences.


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## AgileOllie (May 13, 2011)

My husband and I have been searching for a LONG time for a breeder that we like, so that in the future we will know which breeder produces what we like in a GSD. She is exactly what we would be looking for. She is NOT what the AKC 'likes', obviously, but she is what many would love to have. I think she is gorgeous. What are her working lines like?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

She is beautiful! Show her in some local German Conformation shows!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

She's gorgeous! :wub:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, that's the thing about showing. You don't just find a show in your area and sign your dog up. It is NO fun whatsoever to hear a judge diss your dog. Showing is work. You have to prepare the dog for a show with training, yupp, conformation training and you have to learn what to do, what not to do, etc. But wait, there is more. You have to go to shows, and watch what is winning and by whom. If you see a dog kind of like yours with championship points, find out who the judges were. 

It is time-consuming, emotional, and expensive to show a dog, and to show one under a judge that will give you no chance whatsoever, is certainly not worth it. 

I have done well in matches, took a few firsts, a BOB, and a group 2, but I am too chicken to put my money and my feelings on the line for championship points. I would have to spend a lot more time learning the judges.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

She is a lovely dog! I have heard many good things about Julia's dogs!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

beautiful, sweet looking girl...but not what is winning in the american conformation ring.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Try UKC, she will do fine there!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I know she's not what AKC judges are looking for, and frankly I don't care that much about winning--I just think it's good to get working dogs looked at in the show ring. If nothing else, it will show people used to seeing sickle hocks and spooky temperaments that there is another kind of GSD!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think it's a good thing to her out there,,I LOVED taking handling classes, they were a learning experience for ME and great socialization for the dog..

With that I encourage you to take a handling class, hit some matches, (they are far and few in between

And then hit some ALL breed shows..I showed my male for a time he was 1/2 ddr and 1/2 am show lines, but he looked like a working dawg..It was fun and I had a good time learning the 'game'

She's gorgeous by the way and I say GO FOR IT!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

AgileOllie said:


> My husband and I have been searching for a LONG time for a breeder that we like, so that in the future we will know which breeder produces what we like in a GSD. She is exactly what we would be looking for. She is NOT what the AKC 'likes', obviously, but she is what many would love to have. I think she is gorgeous. What are her working lines like?


The V-litter pedigree is here:

Vello von Sontausen - German shepherd dog

I cannot say enough good things about Julia and her dogs. I also own Vinca's great aunt, litter sister to the great Lark von Sontausen. Julia has a litter on the ground right now, check it out...

Available puppies


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

We had a conversation on Facebook about entering all our working lines in the conformation shows. If we go, we will be seen. Who cares if you place or not? Certainly not me. I want to show people what a GSD should look like. That there are other choices. Not the GSD that is influenced by politics and money.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

dawnandjr said:


> If we go, we will be seen. Who cares if you place or not? Certainly not me. I want to show people what a GSD should look like. That there are other choices. Not the GSD that is influenced by politics and money.


My thoughts exactly!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I deleted my comment because rarely does insulting the insulting people ever do anything constructive, but there are things that people can say of the working line dogs as well. 

While this topic started out good, it turned into yet another excuse to diss showline dogs.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

VERY pretty puppy!! But then mine is not exactly an unbiased opinion 

I've shown dogs in UKC, AKC, and CKC conformation....some judges love them, some absolutely DON'T. Don't care, I know what I have at the end of my leash. I'm pretty selective about who I show to. It's great socialization for a young dog....I mean what the heck, you get to go in the ring and bring food and toys, what could be better? (Except at UKC shows, if I remember correctly they don't use bait. It's been years......)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> While this topic started out good, it turned into yet another excuse to diss showline dogs.


I don't mean to "diss" show-line dogs, it's just that I've seen an awful lot of them with sickle hocks, spooky temperaments, and narrow, greyhound-like heads. That doesn't mean ALL of them are like that--I've known some show dogs that were very nice, and lately I've seen a trend toward less extreme dogs at AB shows, which is my personal preference. But my personal preference isn't necessarily the judge's preference, so I'm at a disadvantage as far as actually winning. I simply like to see working dogs in the show ring--in any breed--whether they win or not, it's nice to see them.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Freestep said:


> I simply like to see working dogs in the show ring--in any breed--whether they win or not, it's nice to see them.


RIGHT. It's good for people to see working dogs and know that there is an alternative.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Feminie female with high withers, good topline, but her croup is short and flat. Very good angulation front and rear, but her upper arm is short. You can see this too in how she moves in her lack of reach. In movement she is lacking balance right now (she is very young) and falling onto her forehand. She has a gorgeous profile. I would like to see a darker eye. In the one photo it looks like she toes out a bit and I may see the same thing in the movement photos. 

Yes, training is very important for both AKC and the German conformation rings. She needs to learn to gait and stack correctly.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

never saw toys in the conformation ring. and i've been around lots of all breed and specialty confirmation rings for years and years and years. also, it's the standard, not any of us, which decides what a german shepherd dog "should" look like. remember??? that little document called the breed standard???

nice and very accurate critique lisa.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Feminie female with high withers, good topline, but her croup is short and flat. Very good angulation front and rear, but her upper arm is short. You can see this too in how she moves in her lack of reach. In movement she is lacking balance right now (she is very young) and falling onto her forehand. She has a gorgeous profile. I would like to see a darker eye. In the one photo it looks like she toes out a bit and I may see the same thing in the movement photos.
> 
> Yes, training is very important for both AKC and the German conformation rings. She needs to learn to gait and stack correctly.


Yes, we are taking conformation classes. At this point, however, it's like a comedy of errors.  Thank you for the detailed critique!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

katieliz said:


> never saw toys in the conformation ring. and i've been around lots of all breed and specialty confirmation rings for years and years and years.


I worked for a professional handler for a while, mostly showing the "extras". Plus showed my own dogs. Some breeds it's common to use toys in the conformation ring. Haven't you ever seen terrier handlers with a "rat" toy? And many obedience people bring toys into the ring to condition their dogs to expect fun and games in a real ring.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I could be wrong but I think you might be a bit confused. Don't confuse GERMAN showlines with AMERICAN showlines. 

"I don't mean to "diss" show-line dogs, it's just that I've seen an awful lot of them with sickle hocks, spooky temperaments, and narrow, greyhound-like heads."

This is not a "diss" but you won't see any of the characteristics that you have described in your post in a German bred show dog.

Also, make no mistake; the "dissing" (for the lack of a better term) of the German bred dogs is not limited to AKC judges. We are friends with MANY fellow German Shepherd Dog breeders/owners/trainers. They are of German and American persuasion and our "American" friends think our girls are strange.
I'm older than dirt and have been involved with GSDs for almost my whole life and this "debate" will probably go on forever! LOL!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

EJQ said:


> I could be wrong but I think you might be a bit confused. Don't confuse GERMAN showlines with AMERICAN showlines.
> 
> "I don't mean to "diss" show-line dogs, it's just that I've seen an awful lot of them with sickle hocks, spooky temperaments, and narrow, greyhound-like heads."
> 
> This is not a "diss" but you won't see any of the characteristics that you have described in your post in a German bred show dog.


I should have been more specific. I was talking about American bred show-line GSD's. Of course German highlines don't have sickle hocks or narrow heads. IMO the German highlines have their own problems, roach back being one of them. I personally don't like the look of the roach backs, and I believe the AKC standard specifically calls against it.


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## istie (Jul 18, 2007)

No it doesnt - a roached back is NOT correct
This is from the Breed Standard

Australian Extension
*Back 
The back is the area between the withers and the croup and should be straight, strongly developed and not too long. The overall length is not derived from a long back, but is achieved by the correct angle of a well-laid shoulder, correct length of croup and hindquarters. The withers must be long, of good height and well defined. They should join the back in a smooth line without disrupting the flowing top line, which should be slightly sloping from the front to the back. Weak, soft and roached backs are undesirable. 
Comment: Height to length - a German Shepherd D is approximately 10-15% longer than it is high. A German Shepherd Dog should not be square as it is unable to extend its limbs properly to produce the desired far-reaching movement. A German Shepherd Dog should not be too long, particularly in the coupling, as again during movement, much of the forward drive is lost. 
Topline - should be a smooth flowing line from the wither to the tail, gently sloping from front to rear. A slight rise is preferable to a soft or dippy back. Many young dogs may display a rise over the back that can level out with age. *

AKC Standard*
Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.

The whole structure of the body gives an impression of depth and solidity without bulkiness.*

Nowhere does it say roach or that it is preferable.
And a sloping back is different to a roached back


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