# Horand von Grafrath



## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Anyone else ever traced back the pedigree of your dog to the first registered GSD's? Wow they look so wolf like!


V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein)

This guy was gray?

And Greif von Sparwasser was all white! 

It really is crazy to see some of the foundation dogs to todays German Shepherd Dog.

Interesting, thought i'd share.



> "Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog." ~Captain von Stephanitz Originator of the breed


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I've looked all the way back a few times in both of my guys with pedigrees. It's awesome to see where the breed started and what they've become over the years to produce what's sitting next to me. Horand was neat looking, and I too, notice the white shepherd in there.... thought that was interesting. I'm not a fan of them (just not my cup of tea)... but, it's interesting to see they are not considered as a GSD in AKC, when they were actually there in the making of the breed. Hmm... anyway, that a whole 'nother can of worms and lots of information I'm not knowledgeable about. So I don't have a lot of opinion on it. But it was a curious finding for me none the less.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

TrickyShepherd said:


> I too, notice the white shepherd in there.... thought that was interesting. I'm not a fan of them (just not my cup of tea)... but, it's interesting to see they are not considered as a GSD in AKC, when they were actually there in the making of the breed.


I thought the AKC does recognize the white as a GSD? They can be registered as GSDs, but since the white color is considered a fault they can't be shown in conformation classes.

I thought it was the SV that does not recognize the white dogs as GSDs?
Sheilah


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

sit said:


> I thought the AKC does recognize the white as a GSD? They can be registered as GSDs, but since the white color is considered a fault they can't be shown in conformation classes.
> 
> I thought it was the SV that does not recognize the white dogs as GSDs?
> Sheilah


I'm not 100% sure all the rules... honestly, I never really looked far into it. All my shepherds have been black and tan, black and red, and a sable. But, I've always heard of complaints of how they don't have the same "rights" as the others. I know there are restrictions, and I know some do not allow them. Like I said... not my cup of tea, so I've never done any research, which is why I don't normally even discuss it. I just wanted to add that I thought it was extremely interesting that a white GSD was in "the making" of the GSD and the one we all look back to Horand. Fascinating.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

well doesnt the gsd gene pool have some spitz in there????? arent they white????? i dunno, i thought i read something about that a while back.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So were wire haired dogs and, I think, brindles. Never heard anything about spitz being in there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just went all the way back from Fasko d'Ulmental. Who is the sire of Odie's pups' sire. 

It's kind of cool. I just looked at the top line, sire, grand sire, great grand sire. And I noticed the 1920 Sgr, was the 1922 GV (USA) which is kind of kool since these days, there is a chasm between German show lines and American show lines.

Of course, when the breed started here in the US, the dogs did have to look German.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

selzer said:


> I just went all the way back from Fasko d'Ulmental. Who is the sire of Odie's pups' sire.
> 
> It's kind of cool. I just looked at the top line, sire, grand sire, great grand sire. And I noticed the 1920 Sgr, was the 1922 GV (USA) which is kind of kool since these days, there is a chasm between German show lines and American show lines.
> 
> Of course, when the breed started here in the US, the dogs did have to look German.


haha, thats what I did, Selzer. I just kept clicking on sire's and kept going back. I even did it on a WL pedigree, and it went back to the same foundation dogs! They alllll came from the same dogs. And you know what, I found WL dogs in my dogs pedigree, from the 1960's. 



TrickyShepherd said:


> I've looked all the way back a few times in both of my guys with pedigrees. It's awesome to see where the breed started and what they've become over the years to produce what's sitting next to me. Horand was neat looking, and I too, notice the white shepherd in there.... thought that was interesting. I'm not a fan of them (just not my cup of tea)... but, it's interesting to see they are not considered as a GSD in AKC, when they were actually there in the making of the breed. Hmm... anyway, that a whole 'nother can of worms and lots of information I'm not knowledgeable about. So I don't have a lot of opinion on it. But it was a curious finding for me none the less.


I was very shocked, lol the first GSD's look SO different from ANY GSD today. Its also cool to see them evolve as the generations go on. Gotta admit, Beowulf? He was neat looking.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

sit said:


> I thought the AKC does recognize the white as a GSD? They can be registered as GSDs, but since the white color is considered a fault they can't be shown in conformation classes.
> 
> I thought it was the SV that does not recognize the white dogs as GSDs?
> Sheilah


Right on all counts. The breed standard in the AKC was changed once in 1957 and again in 1967 making white a disqualifying fault but you can still register them as GSD's. 

The recessive gene for white was handed down through Horand and his brother Luchs. Their materal grandfather Greif was white. (shepherding dog) Both dogs were heavily line bred and inbred so the recessive gene was passed on through their progeny.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> well doesnt the gsd gene pool have some spitz in there????? arent they white????? i dunno, i thought i read something about that a while back.


No, Spitz was not part of the foundation of this breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@gsdlover91..... You found WL dogs in pedigree in sixties because there were not show lines or WL lines per se. You often got show winners from any two V or SG dogs that had good structure and met requirements. Rather simple!


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I have traced both of my boys back to the orginal gsds, I think that is so cool. 
White, wire haired and brindle gsds were there in the beginning. I remember an old picture of a brindle wire haired gsd and it looked a lot like a wire coated dutch shepherd.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Traced mine back to Horand. Was interesting to see the wide earset, the legginess and
the lack of angulation in the early dogs. I wonder why they didn't stay with the configuration that was standard back then.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=467045

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=2014


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

gsdlover91 said:


> Anyone else ever traced back the pedigree of your dog to the first registered GSD's? Wow they look so wolf like!
> 
> 
> V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein)
> ...


Was he gray, or was it just that there were only black and white photographs in the 1890s?


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

The early GSDs looked like the Mals (structurally) of today.
I wonder if Mals will look like GSDs 100 years from now.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Horand was gray.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Horand was gray.


That's pretty cool


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Other interesting historical tidbits about Horand:
The baron gave Horand to a friend because he bought a new stud dog and Horand and the new dog kept fighting. This friend's house was next to the train track. Horand became an incorrigible train chaser, and purportedly met his untimely demise due to this dangerous past time. I guess he had high prey drive.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

gsdlover91 said:


> I was very shocked, lol the first GSD's look SO different from ANY GSD today. Its also cool to see them evolve as the generations go on. Gotta admit, Beowulf? He was neat looking.


They are really neat looking. Beowulf was a handsome guy. 

Though I PD had pictures of Roland, Courage, Kastor, Pollux, and some of the others further back. If you up and down the pedigrees from beginning to end, it's really really cool to see the transformation into today's GSD.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

In Germany sables are called "Grau" which literally means grey. So Horand was grey which means he was sable


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