# Dog passes CGC test... though he should have failed :/



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Personally, I wouldn't have passed this dog: Duke's Canine Good Citizen Test - YouTube

- dog was unable to stabilize in a sit during the 'accepting a friendly stranger' portion of the test
- dog was overly enthusiastic during the 'sit for petting' 
- dog appeared to attempt to jump during the 'appearance and grooming' section, dog appeared to try to nom on the evaluators hand, dog was way too squirmy during this entire section
- dog and handler were NOT in tune during the 'out for a walk' section
- even though the dog is able to pass the test dog, the dog being evaluated lunges at a dog on the side lines (presumably playfully, but it's still a reaction to another dog when there's suppose to be a lack of reaction!)
- dog panics and pulls during the supervised separation; pulls the person holding the leash through closed doors to get to its owner!

Seems if it's true, and the dog did pass this attempt at the cgc test, then this evaluator was way too lax :/


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

And for comparison, a beautiful example ... I find it funny that the first is of a GSD, and then the second is of an Aussie... This is very much like it is in my household  my Aussies are so much more polite than my GSD Canine Good Citizen Test from SmartyPup! - YouTube


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> And for comparison, a beautiful example ... I find it funny that the first is of a GSD, and then the second is of an Aussie... This is very much like it is in my household  my Aussies are so much more polite than my GSD Canine Good Citizen Test from SmartyPup! - YouTube



Wow, thank you for sharing this video. Sophie and I have a loooong way to go...sigh.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I don't know if it's the same where you are, but around me there are a lot of dog related events (within driving distance at least) which have CGC testers on site that will run tests throughout the event. These kind of events are typically very relaxed and do not require preregistration! It would be a good place to do a test run to see how your dog would do -- from what I've seen, when a dog fails the test, the evaluators tend to be very nice and give suggestions on the different things that could use improvements.

Even if my dog could pass by acting the way the dog did in the first video -- I don't think I'd personally be happy with the success! 

I'm going to have Virgil tested on the 24th of next month -- I think we will do fine, my only worry is about the test dog -- Virgil does well walking by 'most' dogs, but he still gets himself in a tizzy when it's a small rambunctious dog!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

e.rigby said:


> Personally, I wouldn't have passed this dog: Duke's Canine Good Citizen Test - YouTube *Nor would I have.*
> 
> - dog was unable to stabilize in a sit during the 'accepting a friendly stranger' portion of the test *Sitting is not required.*
> - dog was overly enthusiastic during the 'sit for petting' *evaluator's have some leeway, if the dog was not aggressive and did not shy away, they can pass the dog.*
> ...


*The CGC is not meant to be a stiff obedience test. It is a starting point for things like Rally, Obedience, Agility. A dog that passes the CGC should be a dog that the evaluator feels confident is stable enough that it would be highly unlikely for the dog to ever bite anyone outside of seriously extenuating circumstances, assailent, serious injury. 

The dog should be able to sit, stay, down, and come, this dog did that. 
The dog should not go bonkers in a crowd, this dog did fine here.
The dog should be able to walk along on a loose lead -- I have seen worse, 
The dog should not lose his mind if there is audio or visual distractions, this dog did fine.
The dog should allow someone to hold him while his owner leaves the room for 3 minutes. It appears that after the dog came back in, the dog managed the three minutes. 
The dog/handler should be able to meet someone with another well-behaved dog. It did.  
The dog should let you meet someone without jumping on them and licking their ears. Well, kind of -- he did not lick her ears.
The dog should allow you to pet them without shying away. Well, kind of. 
The dog should allow you to run the brush down the back, check the ears, check each front foot. It really did not. 

I think that failing the CGC just tells you what needs more work. Evaluators are not really doing any favors by passing dogs that flunk. But it is a judgement call. I have seen dogs that passed that I would have flunked. I think that when the person being tested had been in classes with the evaluator, the evaluator has more incentive to pass the individual. 

*


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

This is the critera: AKC's Canine Good Citizen (CGC) Program -- I understand each evaluator has a right to interpret as they see fit, but according to the testing criteria, that dog should not have passed. Failure does not mean the dog is a 'bad' dog, it means the dog needs more work!

True, it's not a ridged test, you are allowed to talk to, encourage, and praise your dog. However, it is a test to ensure the dog is a canine ambassador of sorts. An overly enthusiastic dog is not an ambassador for anything other than rude behavior! 

I guess this is where we part ways and say to each his own, but I think very little of dogs that pass the test with level of obedience as the dog in the first video. 



> *I think that when the person being tested had been in classes with the evaluator, the evaluator has more incentive to pass the individual. *


*

*You are not allowed to take the test if your instructor is the evaluator. 

I teach CGC prep classes -- I've done practice CGC tests for students (not my own). I am waiting for my paper work from the AKC to be a CGC evaluator. I would never pass a dog that behaved like the dog in the first video.

Anyway, too often are 'friendly' dogs given a pass on bad behavior because they aren't a 'true' danger... however, a kid getting scratched and knocked over by a friendly dog can be a traumatic experience for that child :/


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That must be a rule change. I have been in classes taught by the instructor. Now her husband give the test. Could you point me to where they have that particular rule? 

It can be a traumatic experience if the parent or adult monitoring the child is a total idiot. I'm sorry, but falling off your bicycle when you are learning to ride the bike might give you a scratch, big hairy deal. ANY dog might inadvertently knock over or scratch someone. I think a child that goes 18 years never being exposed to anything that has the potential to be traumatic is severely abused/neglected. Every Sunday I babysit my God daughters who are four, and every Sunday when I arrive they have some new scratch or bump to show me that proves they have a life and are not camping out in front of the TV. (I do prefer to give them back without adding to the blood loss, I do not always succeed.) 

I have little patience for people being concerned about every little thing traumatizing kids.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

If the instructor's husband is a CGC evaluator, and has not been one of the primary trainers, then there is no conflict of interest. However, evaluators are to avoid any situations that create a conflict of interest. If the evaluator is your trainer, the push to pass a dog is greater (as you even mentioned in one of your previous posts). Also, an evaluator who has also worked in training the handler/dog is not considered a stranger and cannot preform any of the 'friendly stranger' requirements of the test.

As to whether or not one perceives a child getting scratched or knocked over as traumatic -- a dog who would do such an act should not be deemed a canine good citizen. Personally, if I had kids, I wouldn't make a big deal of something like that. However, it is not sign of a well behaved dog!


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Also, the form for the CGC test (at least the new one) has a pass column, and a 'needs more training' column... so a dog that fails is a dog that the evaluator feels needs more training! Again, it doesn't deem that dog a bad dog, just not one that is ready to be certified a canine good citizen!

 this is one of the statements in the evaluator book: 

_“this is really a nice dog. He is so full of energy and it’s clear he loves you. But on these test items, it looks like he needs a little more training… Have you been to any obedience classes?... Most of these behaviors are skills that could be taught in a matter of weeks. I’m so glad you brought your dog today. I hope you’ll work on this and try again. I can tell by the way this dog watches every move you make, he’d do well in training.”_

Evaluators are suppose to encourage handlers to continue with obedience training if their dogs do not pass!

There's so much in the handbook for evaluators that tries to describe what to look for, what to pass, what to check off as needs more training. From my reading of the handbook, the dog in the video displayed so many behaviors that would have caused it not to pass.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I may have passed the greeting - dogs are not faulted for being happy and wiggley, they just can't jump. The grooming looked pretty iffy though and I get a feeling she couldn't really exmine him, which would be a fail for me. The walking was fine, the dog walked like a dog might on a normal walk and was controlled and not pulling. The dog does not have to heel. I didn't notice the dog lunge but he was quite interested in a dog on the sidelines. The supervised separation was iffy for sure.

On the whole, I don't think I'd have passed this dog but he's not all that bad either. I have seen way worse dogs pass CGC tests. I have seen dogs who growl pass and dogs who are so shy they can't really be touched. There are evaluators out there that don't appear to have ever read the evaluators guide. I'm considered "strict" by some people because I follow the rules in the evaluators guide. Usually when I test classes at least a couple dogs fail. Actually in years of testing, I think I had my first perfect test at a dog show this month - likely because the dogs who were being tested were trained/socialized show and obedience dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I guess the biggest problem I have with the test is that a puppy can be tested. To me, until they are grown it doesnt really show much though I guess someone who does take a pup through the test will probably maintain some level of basic obedience and know how a dog is supposed to behave.

FWIW my female who is dog snarky and female agressive flew through the test with flying colors. So did my male without any prep.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

The separation component was iffy for me but I was told by my CGC evaluator that the dog is granted a second try if they do a component poorly the first time. He looked o.k. the second time around with the separation.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

All I saw was a very, very happy, social dog.....who could use a little more OB training.
That particular dog (GSD) in the OP's first thread.....seemed like he/she was pretty excited to be doing ANYTHING....and looked to be happy with whatever was going on.
DOn't have any idea on what should or should not pass.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I dont see any reason that dog should fail a CGC. The only real fault is saw was the supervised separation, but that was the stranger handling the dogs' fault, not sure why she kept letting the dog go thru the doors?

He was a nice, friendly, social dog. He behaves on the leash (doesnt pull like crazy), he sits, downs, stays, he can be around a crowd of little kids, walk past another dog nicely, and be brushed and have his head grabbed and ears looked at by a stranger.

the CGC is not an obedience test. Its just a test to show that you have a dog who behaves like a nice family pet when out in public. Any person can become a CGC evaluator by paying a fee and taking an open book test, so that just tells you right there it is not a "serious" test of a dog's training or behavior.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

To those who said they wouldn't pass the dog but did not say why, what parts do you feel the dog failed? It did not look that bad to me, except maybe for the grooming.



e.rigby said:


> - dog and handler were NOT in tune during the 'out for a walk' section


There is no requirement for the dog to be 'in tune' during the walking. I think Bianca had her nose to the ground for half of the walking segment (until I told her to watch me) when she took her CGC, although she stayed in heel position the whole time. We took the test in a brand new place, in a room where a puppy class just finished and something was REALLY interesting on the ground. She is really good at keeping in stride with me with her nose to the ground.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

ShatteringGlass said:


> The only real fault is saw was the supervised separation, but that was the stranger handling the dogs' fault, not sure why she kept letting the dog go thru the doors?


 I thought the same thing.



Chicagocanine said:


> To those who said they wouldn't pass the dog but did not say why, what parts do you feel the dog failed? It did not look that bad to me, except maybe for the grooming.


 If the evaluator indeed couldn't finish the examine of the dog, he shouldn't pass even if it was due to being overly friendly/excited. The dog's mouth-yness is definitely iffy too, as it appeared the dog was grabbing the evaluator's arm at a point. Again being overly friendly/excited, not aggressive but still not accepted per the guidelines for the test. It was a bit hard to tell exactly what was going on in the video though. 

_ "Some dogs will wiggle or squirm when they are excited. Some squirming is acceptable, however, this should not be so excessive that the dog cannot be brushed."_

_"The dog may not jump on or rush to the
Evaluator to initiate
contact. The dog
may not lunge
forward to greet
the Evaluator_"


If you want to read up on the actual AKC guidelines for the CGC tests, AKC has the evaluator's guidelines on their website: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/cgc/GK9GC9.pdf


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did read them, yesterday, and I will stick to my original opinion. I was not sure whether the dog was actually mouthing her or not. I think the dog was just being friendly. I would flunk a dog sooner for being shy than for being friendly. 

My understanding is that an evaluator may evaluate her own class, but should have another "friendly stranger" do the first three tests, if she has become less of a stranger through classes. This comes from reading the avoid the appearance of conflict of interest, do not evaluate a dog owned by you, but farther on, it says, the evaluator can determine at what point in training the dog is evaluated -- sounded like the evaluator was the dog's instructor. I do not see that as a conflict of interest really. 

I mean, some people might allow it skew their pass rate, but when you think about it, people who will take the dog to them to get an easy pass of the CGC, are not going to continue to work with them through performance training etc, these can be some of the WORST students to have -- the human ones. Better to have it get around that they give an honest evaluation, but the dogs that go through the classes, generally pass. I am ok with that. It is not a conflict of interest. 

The evaluator's guide does not say that the evaluator cannot be the dog's regular trainer. As it does with a Rally or Obedience judge in their guidelines. If the AKC wanted that to be a rule, they know how to print it up.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

personally the dog would drive me crazy. Just remember this is a test to see how fit the dog is to be out in the general public , not an obedience exam and definitely not a breed test. Excellent dog , bad german shepherd -


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> personally the dog would drive me crazy. Just remember this is a test to see how fit the dog is to be out in the general public , not an obedience exam and definitely not a breed test. *Excellent dog , bad german shepherd *-


Interesting statement. I am not confident my GSD will pass the CGC, because she is very much like that dog. She will probably not allow me to leave her with a stranger. If that is the reason she fails CGC then I am OK with that. She is probably a bad German Shepherd.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have unfortunately passed dogs that I personally would not walk up to and ask to pet outside of class. I had to test a dog that IMO is an overly anxious, nippy dog. But, if the owners can pull it together for the test, what can I do?  I don't like it though. I've also heard people complain because their instructor failed them or did not allow them to take the test based on previous history. 

I am not a certified tester but my trainer does the test after a class, so it's not fair for her to be the "stranger" so sometimes she calls me out (as long as it's not for a class I'm in). When I help out, I give the test and she observes or I mark down what I think. I also sometimes bring my dog as the neutral dog - a dog the dogs being tested have never seen before.

As for the greeting, not necessarily a failure. The way we test is that the dog has to remain "in place". So, if you sit or down your dog, the dog *can* get up, but can't jump on the person, can't move forward or pull the handler somewhere. But they don't necessarily have to remain stoically sitting.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> I don't know if it's the same where you are, but around me there are a lot of dog related events (within driving distance at least) which have CGC testers on site that will run tests throughout the event. These kind of events are typically very relaxed and do not require preregistration!!


I have not checked into events around here yet but I have hired a trainer to help Sophie and I overcome some issues she is having. She is doing very well, so hopefully, she will be able to move on to CGC training classes soon. Wishing you success with CGC certifying Virgil


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think there has to be balance. You have to look at the spirit of the law, moreso than the letter of the law.  

If the CGC test is to prove temperament so that people can feel comfortable with their dog around all people, dogs, distractions; so insurance companies will give you a break because the dog is certified good temperament; so you can breed the dog -- well if that is the purpose of the test, than people should be strict and rigid and STILL it would not satisfy anyone of these conditions, no test can guaranty a dog will act perfectly in ANY situation, no test can guaranty a dog will NEVER bite anyone, 5-6 minutes of testing is not going to prove breed-worthiness. 

If the CGC test is designed to promote responsible dog ownership, by an introduction to training and socialization with set goals; and to encourage people to continue to train their dog, and possibly try other venues; and to be a milestone as an entry requirement for more advanced dog training; and to be used by some insurance companies/land lords to give a discount because a dog that has some training is less likely to create serious problems. Well, if those are the reasons, then I can understand the test being somewhat relaxed. 

I mean, a dog that clearly fails the test, it will show where more work is needed. A good owner will accept the feedback and maybe work on that area and retake the test. But if you fail good dogs because the owner is not a great handler/trainer, then the owner may be likely to give up -- my dog flunked obedience school, we were kicked out. That test is so hard, Etc. I think that would discourage people from going on, thinking they or the dog is defective. While a little success my spur them on to more training and better results. 

I just think you have to balance it out. Let the small stuff slide, so long as you are consistent, I do not think it hurts for some evaluators to be more strict about different parts of the test. People are not computers.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Personally.......I would rather see dogs that "acted" like the dog in this thread, out in the general public...than a fearful, reactive, problematic dog.
Whether the dog "behaved" or "exhibited" true GSD temperament is not at question here. *The aspects of the test vs dog is*
The dog in the video....was "social" and acceptable to the public and other dogs.

As I stated before...I don't know what should be considered passing or failing....but as a "dog" (non breed specific)...it looked to be social & friendly.....and a safer specimen of a companion pet.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I know this has been an issue here before.....I don't think it's very fair to post a 4 year old video on a website to critique.


The dog was not dangerous nor overly boisterous (I didn't see any crazy jumping or wildness), but video exemplifies why people are not impressed with a CGC meaning a whole lot. 

It is a very basic temperment test...I did not see anything in that video that indicated that dog was a danger to society.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Personally.......I would rather see dogs that "acted" like the dog in this thread, out in the general public...than a fearful, reactive, problematic dog.
> Whether the dog "behaved" or "exhibited" true GSD temperament is not at question here. *The aspects of the test vs dog is*
> The dog in the video....was "social" and acceptable to the public and other dogs.
> 
> As I stated before...I don't know what should be considered passing or failing....but as a "dog" (non breed specific)...it looked to be social & friendly.....and a safer specimen of a companion pet.


 
exactly , and that is what makes the dog an excellent dog , but not a good shepherd as it is not neutral or indifferent , far too friendly and attention seeking with a stranger , BUT preferable than slinking ready to strike fearful dogs with eyes wide open and head down .
This dog you can be at ease in the public arena, the fearful dog you have to be on guard , constantly vigilant , to avoid a bad incident.

I would have passed this dog for this test.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, get Carmen to test Bear and Liesje to test Dolly and I am home free. LOL!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Carmen, along with what you are saying, I did the ATTS test with my 3 year old GSD on Sunday and he got the lowest score possible ("no response") on the friendly stranger greeting. That is not a failure (he passed the test and got lots of praise), but the test exercises are scored based on the dogs reaction, a higher score is *not* necessarily better. For example, a GSD should get a high score on the aggressive stranger exercise because the GSD should alert and protect (which we did because my dog alerted, barked, showed aggression back) but a breed like a toy companion dog should not. Likewise IMO the GSD *should* receive a low score on the stranger (neutral and friendly) greeting exercises because IMO the GSD should be neutral and aloof to strangers, while my friend's companion bred Golden Retriever that is active in pet therapy got a much higher score with the friendly stranger. My dog ignored both strangers, just stood there. As far as an all-breed test evaluating temperament, I think the ATTS test is better than the CGC, when done correctly it takes breed and training into account, and is informative for those listening if there are a range of breeds being tested. My GSD and the passing Chihuahua's test looked night and day yet they both deservedly passed. The only automatic failures across the board are unprovoked aggression and fear without recovery, but a breed like a GSD can be failed for showing fear even with recovery on an exercise like the aggressive stranger or the gun fire.


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## Runswithdogs (May 8, 2010)

What kind of class is best to prepare for the CGC test? My dogs would be great on everything except the reaction to another dog and separation parts. They've both done basic obedience but we need to work on reactivity with other dogs and leash obedience.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Runswithdogs said:


> What kind of class is best to prepare for the CGC test? My dogs would be great on everything except the reaction to another dog and separation parts. They've both done basic obedience but we need to work on reactivity with other dogs and leash obedience.


Some places offer CGC prep classes/course which is what I took to prepare.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CGC classes. Those are the only classes that I have ever been a part of where they actually practice meet and greet with a dog, and supervised separation. The problem is that we usually take two classes to cover the basics, they start out with meet and greet with just a person, the next week they will pet your dog, and every week they will start with meet and greet, every week they will work on loose lead walking, sit, down, stay on a long line, and recall. But it is sometimes week three or four when we start having someone different doing the meet and greet, holding our dog while we do their meet and greet, and possibly going out of the room for ten seconds. Week five we practice supervised separation and we will actually do the go across the room make the dog sit while someone does the same with another dog. 

I was thinking about this yesterday, I wish there was a class specifically for supervised separation, or maybe a class for advanced socialization. I mean I understand that it would not be a good thing for the class to start out the first day with 3 minute out of room stays. But I would like for us to start out on the first day, with someone holding the leash while I walk down and back. The second class, doing a round robin where the instructor takes your dog, you take the next dog's leash and so forth until you are back to your own dog. and practice going and coming. And practice sit and down stays. By week four you should be able to do a three or four minute down stay, and a shorter out of sight stay. the next week maybe you could leave the room with the leash in the hand of someone while the dog is doing a down stay. 

The class would focus on supervised separation, but would also practice sit and down stays, out of sight stays, lots of meet and greets. and some distractions. 

Maybe CGC class instructors should offer CGC2 for those who flunked out of CGC1 or do not want to flunk and want to give the dog more time on certain problematic parts of the test. Reaction to another dog, supervised separation, and grooming and appearance. The trainer/evaluator could cater the class to the needs of the people. If walking on a loose lead is a big issue, than they could spend a portion of EACH class on that. 

My dogs rarely have more than one stint where I left the room in training, before they are tested, and I am shocked that I have passed this with as many dogs as I have. Point blank, Tori should have flunked, the person holding her lead felt that she could not move a muscle or the dog would freak. The dog did not freak, but it was not the kind of pass I would have wanted.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I take a CGC class with my dogs and the main/only purpose is for us to pass the exercise where you heel directly up to another dog. Normally I don't do training THAT close to another dog (of course in SchH we sometimes have 3, 4 dogs on the field at once, with 1 or 2 doing their long down) and I personally don't place high priority on my dogs being able to interact or be perfectly calm within a few feet of a strange dog so I need to work that exercise in a class.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

It seems to me whether or not you believe the dog in the first video should have passed depends on how you view the CGC test in general. I hold it to much higher standards than some. No, I don't believe it should be a strict test (such as competition obedience) but I do believe there should be a certain level of training and obedience involved. A dog that is too overly friendly should not get a pass because he's friendly and most people would rather see a wiggly dog out in public than a timid or nervous dog. In fact, I often think people with dogs that are overly or naturally friendly don't think much about training because they don't think their dog really needs it. Passing the CGC only perpetuates this. 

Anyway, not debating those who view the test as lax or who think it's more so about temperament than training -- just stating how I view it and why I don't believe the dog should have passed. My CGC test prep classes aren't overly strict, but we do work on getting the dogs to a level of obedience that they can be proud of their dogs accomplishments beyond just having a happy go lucky dog (which is great, but not what my students want when they sign up for class)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

A CGC class is good but there are other classes that do meet and greets. Some pet obedience classes do meet and greet, and also therapy dog classes. The meet and greet was difficult for Bianca because she used to be uncomfortable with strange dogs approaching on leash (she used to bark), especially if they approached us straight on the way they do in that test segment. She is 99% over that now though, and she was fine in the CGC.

There is a therapy dog test we took a class for that has a segment that was a lot more difficult for Bianca. They also do a meet and greet but in addition they have an "honor down" segment where your dog has to do a down-stay 20 feet away from you while a second dog does a heeling pattern which takes them towards your dog on one side, and then behind your dog. Bianca was not comfortable with the idea of a strange dog walking closely behind her. I need to try this again though because she's improved a lot since we took that therapy dog class.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I am a certified CGC evaluator, as well as my training and business partner. Our basic classes focus on all the tests in the CGC. At the end of our classes, we host a potluck and offer the CGC test to those that have completed the classes and want to take the test. If someone fails the test, they have the opportunity to take it again, or to come to some sessions of our next scheduled class and try the next time we offer the test. Our goal is for people to train their dogs and to be able to pass the test. We do a run through of all the tests, the last night of class, so everyone knows what to expect and gives them a little more training.

I wish that more people would pass the test, but unfortunately, the dogs that come to training needing it, a lot of times are the ones that drop out because the owner doesn't want to put that much time into training.

We've had dogs that come the first night of class that are other dog aggressive, but with our help and guidence, and an owner willing to put in the time and effort, her dogs were able to overcome this and did very well in the testing. Another dog, we saw horrible aggression issues, but she passed the part of the reaction to another dog. Fortunately she didn't pass a couple other tests, and a few weeks later they had a eye opening experience and realized that even though they had taken provate lessons and group lessons, over a period of about 6 months, the dog was getting worse not better. They returned the dog to the breeder - and they were experienced GSD owners.

We usually have one of my teenage kids or her husband as the friendly stranger, and we practice the 3 minute seperation over three different class sessions. Some dogs need it and others don't. We try to be a little flexible, but if the dog is obviously not going to do something, then they do not pass.


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