# E collar and agression



## Sarlie21 (Nov 24, 2020)

Hi, so my boyfriend is using an e collar as adviced by a trainer. They use it for obedience training and because our dog is very agressive towards other dogs. When there's another dog, we ask our to sit (which never work just like that), then use the stim at his usual wprking level (which sometimes works) and when it doesnt work we correct him with a much higher shock which make our dog scream in pain and yelp and he shows stress after the correction. Is it fair use? The trainer we see trains dog for the police and assures us it is humane and faire to proceed as such but the screams always get me. He also use the correction for obedience training, trainings are full of yelps from our dog. My boyfriend denies that the trainer is using the correction but even if it's true our dog still yelp loudly. He also denies that our dog yelp during training saying it didn't happened often but even if it's true the fact it happened more than once isn't enough? The trainer openly advocate that spmetime you must cause pain to change a behaviour. Is that fair? I feel like it's abuse to use the e collar like that. Am I just too sensitive?
(Also note that our dog is not food driven, positive reenforcement "doesn't work" according to my boyfriend. We do use it, praise and food but with the collar as alone it doesn't get the job done. But I am convince there must be another way more humane, but my boyfriend refuse to search another trainer)

Edit: Our dog has bitten us and drew blood out of fear 4 times. My boyfriend says that we provoked it by handling him the wrong way. I believe the use of harsh correction might be the cause of mistrust. What do you think?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm making a wild guess here because I can't actually see the dog working with your boyfriend and trainer.From your description that sounds like a very confused dog that has no idea what he's supposed to do or why he's being corrected.


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## Sarlie21 (Nov 24, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> I'm making a wild guess here because I can't actually see the dog working with your boyfriend and trainer.From your description that sounds like a very confused dog that has no idea what he's supposed to do or why he's being corrected.


It could be that, but I don't understand how the trainer is not seeing this...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Again, I don't know not having eyes on the situation. Anyone can declare themselves a trainer but that doesn't mean they're a good trainer.
The only time a correction is fair is after the dog thoroughly understands and performs the command reliably in any setting/circumstance - then decides to disobey.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Find a new trainer. If you are describing accurately what the trainer is advising is abuse.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Who is your trainer? What rewards does your dog get in training? Aggression issues are one one thing. I call bs on positive reinforcement not working for obedience with minimal distractions. What is your dogs attitude during training? Is he excited and looking forward to it?


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

@Sarlie21
The impression that I'm getting from your post is that your manly boyfriend wants a manly dog, so he sought out a manly trainer. The dog isn't so much being trained, as he is having your boyfriend's and the trainer's wills imposed on him. That is not dog training. Tell me about the dog's basic obedience. Does he truly know what's expected when a specific command is given- or is he "offering" up behaviors, hoping that he'll eventually land on the correct one? @dogma13 is absolutely right regarding fair corrections. I also agree with others who say that your dog is likely, very confused.

How old is the dog? How long have you had the dog?
When, exactly, was the e-collar introduced into the dog's formal (paid) training?
Again, how was his basic obedience, prior to introduction of the e-collar?
Echoing @Bearshandler , how is the dog rewarded?
How are other dogs presented to or introduced to your dog? What is the distance, duration, setting?
Why & how, exactly, were you and your boyfriend bitten? I expect to be able to shave a stripe down my dogs' backs while taking away their food and petting a squirrel, all without getting bitten.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If your dog has bitten you and drawn blood four times, you have more than dog reactivity or aggression. I understand bonding with a trainer, but if you aren’t seeing positive results, it’s time to find another one. Yes, e collars can hurt, but pain is not the point. Getting the dog’s attention when you otherwise can’t, is the purpose of the e collar. If it’s used at a high enough stim to change the dog’s behavior, it should not be increased above that. A dog will get used to a stim level, so it’s best to use the very lowest level that works and then occasional move it up, rather than always crank it up for the surprise value.

From what you have said, it’s probably not being used correctly. How and when to use a stim depends on what the dog already knows and what the dog is doing. None of us can tell that from a verbal description.

I see a different problem than the one you asked about. You and your boyfriend co-own a dog and you don’t like his trainer or methods. It’s going to make it very difficult for you to handle the dog in the future if you won’t use the method the dog has learned. So, e collar aside, if you can’t even agree on a trainer, it’s going to be extremely difficult to solve. I’m much more concerned about your dog biting you than the DA.


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## Sarlie21 (Nov 24, 2020)

Thank you for the answers, I understand you're not here to see the situation bit it's nevertheless very appreciated. Our dog is now a bit over 2 years old, he has obediance training before the e collar which was introduced at 9 months. Positive reenforcement with food sometimes work in a non stressing environment. As for our different opinion, my boyfriend had the dog before we met so it's a bit more his dog than mine (we live together since early 2019). I will repect and enforce the training he chosed so I don't confuse the dog. As for the confusion, he knows basics like sit, down, hill and stay in calm environment but whenever it's training session or if he's stressed, it looks like he becomes confused. Like when stressed and asked a command he will try every command he knows randomly until he gets the right one. Also he doesn't look foward the training at the second session he was desperatly trying to not enter the building, pulling and barking/yelping, which the trainer corrected with the e collar (it doesn't happen anymore) but every time he sees the trainer his ears are very low. We had 9 session so far. For the rewards it's usely boiled chicken or praise. Also we didn't go further than getting our dog a 15 meter away from another non-reactive dog. Oh and he's mich better off leash with his agression (there's none of off leash and the other dog is non reactive). Also he's less agressive with other dogs when I'm walking him which leads me to think my boyfriend is insecure and transmit it to the dog. For the bitting, I am very concerned but my boyfriend and the trainer don't seems very bothered (we were bitten on our hands twice he was barking and looking out the window and would stop, so I webt to see what's up, I reach to push him a bit from the window and got bitten, one time my boyfriend was brushing him which our dog doesn't really like and he got handle to toughly and bit, one time my boyfriend was cutting his nails, it's always a hassel our dog is terrified and air bits often, I suggested getiing a mussel for that and my boyfrie d said he could handle it and he got bitten and I just remembered a fifth time when my boyfriend tried to seperate a dog fight, he got bit on the leg,it drew blood also)... Fortunately he doesn't have food agression, I believe it's really out of fear or stress.
@chuckd @Bearshandler @dogma13


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Yikes. It sounds like you need to take a HUGE step back with this training method/trainer. If your dog is so upset that he’s actively avoiding the trainer and training area (then being corrected for it - what the heck?), that’s a huge red flag. I would fire this trainer right away and get a new one. Start over from scratch with the poor dog, maybe even do a short shutdown. Reteach every command he knows using positive methods and go from there. What you’re doing is actively NOT helping the situation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sarlie21 said:


> Also he doesn't look foward the training at the second session he was desperatly trying to not enter the building, pulling and barking/yelping, which the trainer corrected with the e collar (it doesn't happen anymore) but every time he sees the trainer his ears are very low. We had 9 session so far.


This reinforces my earlier statement. The training is now not training it's abuse. 
There is no point in giving any training advice, because it's not your dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You need a new trainer. That is not how it should be, and probably isn't helping your situation. There are more ways to motivate a dog than food. I wouldn't recommend using an e collar for dog aggression, especially not where your dog is. You guys need to come up with a training style that isn't creating conflict between you and the dogs. Every dog doesn't have the temperament of police dogs. They tend to be very hard dogs which allows them to take much harsher training methods. There are posts here on dog aggression if you want to give your boyfriend some where to start.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sarlie21 said:


> The trainer we see trains dog for the police and assures us it is humane and faire to proceed as such but the screams always get me.


I know a few RCMP and police handlers and trainers. I know of NONE that would advocate what this trainer is doing. It's counterproductive to beat a working dog into submission, especially the one that is watching your back. 
A serious correction for a serious crime? Absolutely. I call those my "come to Jesus" chats. A correction meant to express that the behavior is unacceptable and will never be repeated. 
That is not what you are describing.


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## Sarlie21 (Nov 24, 2020)

Thank you all, I will take serious action to fix this problem as it is very serious and I love this dog to death.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

It is impossible to know exactly what's going on without seeing it first hand.
I would suggest that you look at some Larry Krohn videos about dog aggression. Also, he recently has done some talks about "positive confusion" as a way of working with aggression.
He says that the kind of training you describe is only going to amp up aggression.
You can look it up for yourself, but he seems to get good results.
VIDEO REMOVED BECAUSE OF OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE (agreed he is a very good and often recommended trainer)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The bites don’t sound like aggression but avoidance of fear, pain or confusion. If a dog doesn’t want to go to a vet, you might have to coax them. If they don’t want to enter a training building, walk away. My younger dog went to a day care around 5 months based on a trainer’s advice. They had to drag him across the threshold after a few visits. I had already paid for the day and they had a no return policy until the dog had been there four hours. So I got there early to pick him up and planted myself in their lobby and insisted on watching him. They didn’t have a window to watch from, so it was on closed circuit TV and the owner did not want me to see it. Another red flag. Then she couldn’t find him. She finally located him outside on their patio hiding under a bench. She said he did that a lot. I asked her why she didn’t call and tell me the first time that happened. She said she hadn’t noticed. So I told her to get my dog immediately and we never went back. I used another daycare once after that and he seemed fine there. They had a feed I could watch from home. But they insist dogs must be neutered so we never went back there either. When I got the new trainer, who knew of the second day care, he said they are all different and while he won’t say not to use one, some are ok and some are not. My old kennel closed down a few years before that. The point of my very long story is that he did not want to go and he had good reasons. The first place put him with lab and golden puppies that would not leave him alone, which is why he was hiding. It probably didn’t hurt him, but he didn’t like it and didn’t need to be subjected to it.

Your dog should at the very least, be comfortable with his trainer.


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## Sarlie21 (Nov 24, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> The bites don’t sound like aggression but avoidance of fear, pain or confusion. If a dog doesn’t want to go to a vet, you might have to coax them. If they don’t want to enter a training building, walk away. My younger dog went to a day care around 5 months based on a trainer’s advice. They had to drag him across the threshold after a few visits. I had already paid for the day and they had a no return policy until the dog had been there four hours. So I got there early to pick him up and planted myself in their lobby and insisted on watching him. They didn’t have a window to watch from, so it was on closed circuit TV and the owner did not want me to see it. Another red flag. Then she couldn’t find him. She finally located him outside on their patio hiding under a bench. She said he did that a lot. I asked her why she didn’t call and tell me the first time that happened. She said she hadn’t noticed. So I told her to get my dog immediately and we never went back. I used another daycare once after that and he seemed fine there. They had a feed I could watch from home. But they insist dogs must be neutered so we never went back there either. When I got the new trainer, who knew of the second day care, he said they are all different and while he won’t say not to use one, some are ok and some are not. My old kennel closed down a few years before that. The point of my very long story is that he did not want to go and he had good reasons. The first place put him with lab and golden puppies that would not leave him alone, which is why he was hiding. It probably didn’t hurt him, but he didn’t like it and didn’t need to be subjected to it.
> 
> Your dog should at the very least, be comfortable with his trainer.


I understand and was not angry when it happen, I calmly asked him to sit than down and praised him bcs he complied immediately. In spite of that, it is concerning as he is a big dog and the biting is pretty bad, purple bruise and lots of blood (he only bites once though not multiple time which also suggest it's out of surprise of fear) I don't think thw puppy thing would be a good idea, he met a puppy once which was very playful and he growled and snarled at him with his furr all bristled... He doesn't really know how to play with dogs and doesn't read very well dog body language.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Everything about this situation screams disaster waiting to happen to me. I would ditch that trainer for starters. Unfortunately, in order to change anything you'd need your boyfriend to be on the same page as you, and from what you're describing, he's not.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sarlie21 said:


> I understand and was not angry when it happen, I calmly asked him to sit than down and praised him bcs he complied immediately. In spite of that, it is concerning as he is a big dog and the biting is pretty bad, purple bruise and lots of blood (he only bites once though not multiple time which also suggest it's out of surprise of fear) I don't think thw puppy thing would be a good idea, he met a puppy once which was very playful and he growled and snarled at him with his furr all bristled... He doesn't really know how to play with dogs and doesn't read very well dog body language.


I’m not suggesting that he should play with puppies. I was only giving an experience of why a dog should not be forced to go anywhere if he doesn’t want to, unless it’s necessary.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

I have a similar situation with my ACD/beagle rescue. He's reactive, which manifests itself in him running toward other dogs at full speed (worst case scenario). He has done this 3x in the 2.5 years I've had him. He has not bitten me, but he bit another dog.

I have recently started to correct with an e collar. He knows how to turn off the stim, and he knows he's not allowed to run at other dogs. So I say a loud no and wait for him to return. If he doesn't, I dial it up and he returns to me, screaming and howling. He's generally a screamer and yowler. It sounds awful when I correct him this way.

But i do not correct him during obedience this way. And our relationship overall has improved since the intro of the e collar. He also likes our trainer and her assistant (a very handsome Doberman), and enjoys our offleash time together.

Did your trainer do a proper intro to the e collar?

I agree with @Jorski that Larry Krohn has some good points. I also think (respectfully) that your dog does not understand what is expected of him. Personally, I move too quickly sometimes when I am training either of my dogs, and often they get to a point where they are confused, usually because I have piled too many commands onto one and another.

For myself, I am more focused on managing my hound than "fixing" him, which means watching for other dogs, and keeping him below threshold as much as I can.

PS MethodK9 on YouTube has some posts on reactive dogs, which I have found to be helpful.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is a disaster waiting to happen.

You never stim a dog when it's interacting with another dog. Consider the potential consequences. 

I would expect this dog to get worse if this training continues.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

This is conflict upon conflict. No real learning going on. My dog’s foundation has largely been electric. It is mostly chasing his incorrect behavior with a stim level that corrects the behavior without an overtly adverse response. There are a occasional times when he needs a higher stim to get his attention, but minimal reaction to stim other than correcting the behavior. Also need to fade out electric over time. Used incorrectly it is like a frying pan to the head. Used correctly it is akin to turning off an annoying alarm clock that wakes you up in the morning. Over stimming a dog can create conflict the dog might never forget.


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## Shefali (Aug 12, 2020)

Sarlie21 said:


> Thank you all, I will take serious action to fix this problem as it is very serious and I love this dog to death.


one thing that works with my dog is toys as rewards. For example, I will take him for a walk and grab his ball on the way out. He is now all excited because he LOVES to chase that ball. We get to the park and I take him off leash, then I ask him to sit. He needs to sit before I will throw the ball. He sometimes whines a bit, but I am firm, he sits and then I throw the ball. Or I'll ask him to do a down, etc. 

So if your dog is not treat motivated, you can try a toy that he really likes... 

I would NOT force the dog to keep going to this trainer if he is so upset by it. GSDs are smart and sensitive dogs. The best way to have an obedient GSD is to create a strong bond between you and the dog. Yes, you also need to position yourself as the leader. However, that relationship needs to be based on mutual respect and trust. What this trainer is doing is eroding the bond between you and your dog as well as the trust the dog has in you.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

When your dog is driven to bite you, it's pretty clear something is severely lacking In your relationship with the dog.

I understand a snap while in drive out of excitement. But a bite any other time to me indicates a real problem. Work on the relationship and trust! Your dog sounds like a great dog that is just thoroughly confused!


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## Shefali (Aug 12, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> When your dog is driven to bite you, it's pretty clear something is severely lacking In your relationship with the dog.
> 
> I understand a snap while in drive out of excitement. But a bite any other time to me indicates a real problem. Work on the relationship and trust! Your dog sounds like a great dog that is just thoroughly confused!


My dog sometimes bites me when we are playing and he is really excited. It's obviously a play bite however, he does not bruise me or break the skin. He never bites me at any other time.


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