# Cost of titling your dog...Only for those with the means?



## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Just curious as to how much approximately people have to invest in getting their dogs titled and such. I have a friend whose mother raises champion ****-Zu's. She is for lack of a better word, loaded. From what I gathered from our conversations, it "seems" to me that trying to get involved in those sort of things has a lot to do with the almighty dollar. It doesn't bother me "that" much, but you have to ask yourself, are these sort of events catered to a certain type of class? I guess what I am failing to see is someone without a solid financial backing actually be as involved as others I have seen. Am I wrong in this opinion? It could be based on the fact that I just don't personally know many people who show/work their dogs with the goal of obtaining titles. I hope I am communicating my thoughts well. I guess maybe it makes me a little sore in the gluteus maximus that I feel certain events and clubs are more geared towards those with means and money than your everyday GSD lover. Please by all means, if i am completely off base with this, correct me!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

To title? Not that bad. Time, effort, skill, and a decent helper & trainer. To compete? Everyone I know who competes is either loaded or broke because of dog stuff


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have been showing GSD's in conformation and performance events for 30 years. We have never been more than "middle class". At one point we had the #2 GSD show dog in the country. Even managed a trip to Westminster that year. It can be done on a budget.

When trialing dogs, don't enter until you are ready for the next level up. When showing, don't enter (and hire a handler) until your dog is mature and has a full coat. Save up your money meanwhile.


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## QballK (Nov 2, 2014)

It depends on your location and how close you are to the closest club. Some clubs charge 250 a year, others charge over 600 a year, add the cost of gear, helper, vet bills, private lessons, travel and it can break your bank account quickly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A schutzhund or preformance (obedience, tracking, herding, etc)title is different than a conformation title. You can title a dog in Obedience in a weekend and pay about $90 to $110 in AKC registration fees for all 3 legs. You need to properly prepare the dog to work in the ring before hand, and to be comfortable working around a lot of dogs and people. Usually a set of dog classes is all that is needed IF you have a dog with good temperament.

But conformation, which what your lady with the shih-zu's is doing requires so many points, and points are only giving for winning your class, and above. So if you beat every dog in your class -- all the dogs in the age range. You get points, then if you win against all the GSDs, Best of Breed, points, then if you win in group against other herding dogs, more points, and Best in Show would be the winning dog in the whole show of all breeds, more points. The points given depend on how many dogs are entered, and you have to earn so many points at a major or maybe two majors. Can't remember. A major has a set number of dogs entered based on the number of the breed that is registered in a given year. 

Then you have to determine who to show under. Different judges have different tastes, and it makes sense to put your dog in shows where he is more likely to have a chance of being put up. 

It can take time and plenty of money. For breeds with fewer numbers, it is easier to get a major because there are fewer dogs to show under. For that reason, they suggest beginners to pick a breed that is in the middle when it comes to popularity, so that they can find shows and good dogs, but that they will be going up against fewer dogs. 

It is for people who aren't struggling to survive. You have to be able to travel with your dog. Really. And you have to really know your stuff, in grooming, structure, conditioning, showing, nutrition and the whole nine yards. If I ever won a sweepstakes, I could easily be bankrupt traveling down the dog-show path.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends....on one hand, I can definitely say that money has been the deciding factor on which clubs I can train with and which sports I can pursue. I've changed things up in the past year, not exactly what I wanted, but out of financial necessity. On the other hand, all dog sports get expensive but I make sacrifices. There are a lot of things that are "normal" for people of my age and middle class to partake in that I never do. For example, I learned how to cut and style/layer my own hair and haven't paid for a haircut or styling in 3 years. I now do my husband's hair as well (his is even harder because it's not a simple buzz). I have friends and co-workers who are at the salon every 6 weeks. My husband and I always drive older used cars or junkers and don't have auto loans. I have an old CRT TV and don't pay for HD cable service or DVR service. My husband likes beer and because he works hard, I don't mind that he likes to get local craft beers, but as a couple when we go out we barely drink anything, we are not racking up bar tabs like many of our friends are doing every other weekend. It doesn't sound significant, but these things add up. Without expensive TV service, haircuts, and bar tabs I can go to a tournament 8-10 times a year.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

I think it also matters what titles you go for. You can get an AKC tracking title for what I'd consider little monetary investment if there is a club near you; club or class fees, lines and harness, gas for driving all over the place looking for places to practice, fee for the test (usually under $100 from what I've seen). With tracking you only have to pass one track, not the legs under different judges like most (all?) of the other titles, so there's fewer of those three-day out-of-town weekends. Time is the biggest factor, and you would probably have to travel to test. The bond you can create with your dog is just as good as the other titles though if that's what you're going for, and it's fun to learn.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think club/helper fees, trial entry fees and cost of travel are the main expenses. I do most tracking and obedience training by myself or with friends, so that's not any additional cost. I haven't bought much new equipment since initial purchase of basic stuff maybe 5 years ago, so I'm not pouring a ton of money into that consistently. Tracking bait is probably the only consistent expense as far as training aids/equipment goes. It's costly, but not impossible. I'm not a wealthy person in the slightest, but I've made it work for almost 6 years now with part time jobs, school and mediocre sources of transportation.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Hmm interesting information in here. I guess for me is a pattern I see play out in many aspects of our lives. I guess is how do we really know that the best dogs out there are truly the best dogs? Because someone had the cash to put up for it? It's sort of reminding me on how I feel about elected officials in our country. We think they are the best because they are running. Truth is they are running because they have enough money to run and make their mark. Does this make them the best? Not by any means...I guess I am just wondering why proving you are good enough has so much monetary value attached to it. I just think it's sort of off putting that some of you have to make so many sacrifices. If we are all about improving the breed, why are we isolating those that just might not be able to afford it and not giving those dogs a chance to prove themselves? Are there such things as public events that cater to all classes?


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Another thought that my mind is thinking of now is this...

Another reason I am bringing this up is because of all this line breeding stuff I read about. I mean, if we allowed a broader spectrum of individuals an opportunity to involve their potential animal, perhaps they could find out if their dog was worth pursuing without having to shell out money for it. And wouldn't this be encouraged anyway to diversify the gene pool? IMHO it's a win win. We have more genetic diversity, which contributes to more robust and healthier populations, and we also make sure we are truly using the "Best of the Best"...It would be nice if there was a way for people who are truly lovers of the breed but cannot make the financial means no matter what they try to budget, to have a chance to be an ambassador for the breed, and overall make better decisions about how they contribute to that breed.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

I don't think anyone is keeping people out intentionally. There are a lot of volunteers involved in training and trialing, but there are some expenses they do need to have entrants help cover. Venues aren't cheap, and I would imagine the insurance for events isn't, either.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

angierose said:


> I don't think anyone is keeping people out intentionally. There are a lot of volunteers involved in training and trialing, but there are some expenses they do need to have entrants help cover. Venues aren't cheap, and I would imagine the insurance for events isn't, either.


Ahhh Angie good point! Now see, that makes sense to me...Though, in a perfect world, people should carry their own insurance for their individual dog just like with people, but still not a foreign or uncommon concept/practice. This is something I will also keep in mind. It does seem that this sort of protection makes up "partially" for the cost incurred.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

If you can't afford to trial and title your dog in something, can you afford the cost of being a breeder?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You have to remember that this is a hobby. It might seem like an expensive one, but to each person expensive is subjective based on what they’re willing to spend on that hobby. You might spend $5 on one of your hobbies and might think that it’s expensive because I wouldn’t do that if you paid me.

The availability and cost of clubs is not something that most people can control. Unfortunately there are very limited resources in this country for this particular hobby and so cost can become prohibitive because of a free market economy where demand outweighs supply.

What you’ll tend to see with people is that it’s not the money that stops anyone, it’s the time and effort required to get to a trialing level. Not everyone can afford the time to spend every weekend training, or to track every day or every other day. People don’t commit the time required and eventually stop. Dog sport isn’t easy to do if you can only do this once a month and for many people other commitments are more important than the sport…which isn’t a bad thing, it’s just life.

I look at the people in my “club” and not a single one of them has children they have to take care of (either no kids yet or kids are old enough to live by themselves) and they also all have jobs where they tend to work 9-5 without weekends so that they can train. We have one person that also owns a different breed and shows that dog in conformation shows…you can see how that affects her training. She has other commitments, isn’t always at training, probably isn’t training at home daily because she’s focusing on something else and you can definitely see it in the dog.

You also have to realize that no matter how many dogs are in the sport...there will always be line breeding because you'd still single out the "best" dog for breeding. People will still breed to the best (or what they think is the best) and usually that ends up being a single dog or a small handful of dogs in any given area.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

I am familiar with these things from a human sports perspective, not dog, so situations probably vary. But for our events, the players are indeed responsible for their own insurance. Extra costs come in because we must also have liability insurance in case a spectator or vendor is injured. I'd be surprised if dog events didn't have similar requirements.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> If we are all about improving the breed, why are we isolating those that just might not be able to afford it and not giving those dogs a chance to prove themselves? Are there such things as public events that cater to all classes?


How would you do this...without training the dogs to do something? Without spending time and money to get the dogs to a level where they can all be looked at and measured objectively against each other in order to figure out which one is the best?

Just simple obedience stuff? How does that prove anything in regards to our breed standard?


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

On average I spend about $10,000 a year on competitions alone, not including training time and costs. The year I brought the two Shephers to Europe for my certification and an IPO trial cost me about $30,000 ( did 3 other trials that year as well)

I am isolated, so travel costs me a lot. I am easily looking at a $15,000 year just for shows and trials.

I am not independently wealthy and work full time plus teach classes to earn enough to do what I love. I also sacrifice spending money on stuff material things.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Andaka said:


> If you can't afford to trial and title your dog in something, can you afford the cost of being a breeder?


Who says if I title my dog that I want to be a breeder? I didn't know that titling equaled breeding? What if I have a male dog? I would think for some people the competitiveness is what they seek more than breeding rights?


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## QballK (Nov 2, 2014)

$40 in gas money per weekend
$20 per weekend to train with the club
$40 for the helper (2 sessions) once a month
----------------
$300 per month

Multiply that by 12

That is without any extra training outside the club.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> How would you do this...without training the dogs to do something? Without spending time and money to get the dogs to a level where they can all be looked at and measured objectively against each other in order to figure out which one is the best?
> 
> Just simple obedience stuff? How does that prove anything in regards to our breed standard?


I think you're stretching this into too many specifics. I would assume for any dog to have a chance being titled, just simple obedience isn't going to cut it. I would draw the conclusion that someone who was well versed with dogs and extremely capable of conditioning a dog themselves would do much more than simple obedience.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I think you're stretching this into too many specifics. I would assume for any dog to have a chance being titled, just simple obedience isn't going to cut it. I would draw the conclusion that someone who was well versed with dogs and extremely capable of conditioning a dog themselves would do much more than simple obedience.


Titled in what? You're suggesting a "open to anyone" competition. What would that be? Most people that are "well-versed" in training for any particular title do most of the work themselves. By the time you're on your second or third dog, you should have enough skill and ability to train most of the things required for venue X. The point is, any and all venues require time and money, and you were suggesting something where it would be more "open" to the general public. What would that be?

Just being well versed in dogs, isn't going to prove that your dog is a great example of the breed. In order to test for what many of us hold in high regard within our breed, you need much more than just basic knowledge of dog training. So my point is, no matter what type of venue you can come up with, it will require training and will have enough of a barrier to entry where the majority of people will still not do it and the gene pool for breeding will stay smaller.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

QballK said:


> $40 in gas money per weekend
> $20 per weekend to train with the club
> $40 for the helper (2 sessions) once a month
> ----------------
> ...


Cut out that cost and just breed them anyways.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Titled in what? You're suggesting a "open to anyone" competition. What would that be? Most people that are "well-versed" in training for any particular title do most of the work themselves. By the time you're on your second or third dog, you should have enough skill and ability to train most of the things required for venue X. The point is, any and all venues require time and money, and you were suggesting something where it would be more "open" to the general public. What would that be?
> 
> Just being well versed in dogs, isn't going to prove that your dog is a great example of the breed. In order to test for what many of us hold in high regard within our breed, you need much more than just basic knowledge of dog training. So my point is, no matter what type of venue you can come up with, it will require training and will have enough of a barrier to entry where the majority of people will still not do it and the gene pool for breeding will stay smaller.


Am I missing something here? I am speaking in general terms in regards to titling/showing your dog. I don't know all the titles and I don't pretend to. I would assume if someone had a strong interest in doing these things they would be aware of that correct? I am keeping it general because if we start splitting hairs on every little thing, no real answers ever come out. Let's not be so political about the topic and just use GENERAL TERMS. General! I am not referring to any specific title!

Point of topic: Why is there so much monetary value placed on a title when it's supposed to be about improving the breed or determining the best specimens of that breed? If this was really all about the breed, wouldn't it be more financially friendly? I am thinking in a logical sense how a "hobby" equals maintaining breed standards? A "hobby" and a "job" are quite different. One suggests a leisure or time for personal pleasure, the other suggest a pre-defined task or employment. Kudos to the breeders on here though that are breaking their backs and doing their best to maintain the breed. But do you really think you should have to do that? Should it be so financially driven?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Who says if I title my dog that I want to be a breeder? I didn't know that titling equaled breeding? What if I have a male dog? I would think for some people the competitiveness is what they seek more than breeding rights?


You mentioned that the best dogs may not be bred because of the cost involved in titling a dog. If you breed your dog, you are a breeder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Am I missing something here? I am speaking in general terms in regards to titling/showing your dog. I don't know all the titles and I don't pretend to. I would assume if someone had a strong interest in doing these things they would be aware of that correct? I am keeping it general because if we start splitting hairs on every little thing, no real answers ever come out. Let's not be so political about the topic and just use GENERAL TERMS. General! I am not referring to any specific title!


I get that...but you're also talking the "limiting of the gene pool" for GSD. This is a GSD forum. The fact is, many of us abide by the fact that you still need to do the original breed test for our breed. You're not proving anything to the majority of us unless you're going to title in that. You can also prove something if you title and go far in different venues but at the end of the day, that will take just as much time and money.

I'm not splitting any hairs, I'm just letting you know, no matter what title you chose to go after, it will cost you money. But you have to look at it as more of a hobby and you enjoy it rather just a waste of money or something that's expensive. There is no way to have a "free" or "cheap" event that will prove anything about a dog in regards to it being worthy of breeding.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Am I missing something here? I am speaking in general terms in regards to titling/showing your dog. I don't know all the titles and I don't pretend to. I would assume if someone had a strong interest in doing these things they would be aware of that correct? I am keeping it general because if we start splitting hairs on every little thing, no real answers ever come out. Let's not be so political about the topic and just use GENERAL TERMS. General! I am not referring to any specific title!



I don't think there are general terms when talking about titling and costs. It's all specific to venue. Agility costs different than AKC obedience. ASCA is cheaper than AKC. And IPO is just downright expensive for training and equipment and entry fees. NO idea what it costs to title in conformation.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I don't think there are general terms when talking about titling and costs. It's all specific to venue. Agility costs different than AKC obedience. ASCA is cheaper than AKC. And IPO is just downright expensive for training and equipment and entry fees. NO idea what it costs to title in conformation.


Lightbulb! I didn't realize that there was such differences in regards to the type of title. I assumed there was some standard in regards to pricing to go through these motions. See, I don't know much about titles. Do I plan on breeding or titling? Eh, at this point breeding for sure NO, titling? Maybe...I've had a friend approach me who is looking to get into the "biz" on the dog handling side and offered to do some work with Lena. That might be a good route for me. But you have to understand, I grew up very rural where things like titles really mean nothing but what they truly are, paper. My uncle breeds Aussies as I mentioned before. His main dog (no longer breeding shes old now and she only had 2 litters in her lifetime), is not titled whatsoever. But she's a real work Aussie, and her drive and intelligence are stellar. But he's poor and he's a farmer. Is he going to afford to get a piece of paper and pay for all that? No. Do I think his dog is a proven animal, oh for sure. I have seen very few dogs that have the control and intelligence to work as well as she does in a real situation. Well, I am done now. I just think it's crazy how much some of this stuff costs. Could I afford it? Within the next year, definitely. But just because I can afford it, does it mean I should get taken just because I feel my dog is a great example of the breed and I want to prove that to everyone? No.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think we've had this discussion before. There is a difference between breeding a "non-working" dog with titles and a "non-working" dog without titles. A working dog with no titles has still proven they are breed worthy thru the actual work just as K9's, SAR, etc have.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> But just because I can afford it, does it mean I should get taken just because I feel my dog is a great example of the breed and I want to prove that to everyone? No.


What experience do you have to make the judgment if your dog is a great example of the breed or not? What kind of standard are you using? These are all things that you get to find out about when you train/title a dog. You don't have to prove anything to anyone, people will judge you no matter what you decide to do. As a breeder, you have to do whatever you're most comfortable with. If you're comfortable breeding untitled, unproven dogs, you'll never earn any kind of recognition from your peers or anyone that does care about the breed.

The whole point of a title is for the rest of us that don't have the ability to work our dogs in the venue they were meant to be worked in, to be able to prove that they can come as close as possible to that real working venue.

No one cares when real working dogs get bred if they don't have titles. The dog has clearly proven that it's capable of work. But when you're talking to the majority of people, most think that "great pet" is enough reason to breed, and that's their standard of "my dog is an excellent example of the breed." Most people don't understand that a breed only exists because at some point in time there was a real working purpose for this dog that was more than just sit at home and bark at strangers. Without a title, or training, there's no way to prove that the dog in question is capable of whatever claim the breeder/owner is making about the dog.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> What experience do you have to make the judgment if your dog is a great example of the breed or not? What kind of standard are you using? These are all things that you get to find out about when you train/title a dog. You don't have to prove anything to anyone, people will judge you no matter what you decide to do. As a breeder, you have to do whatever you're most comfortable with. If you're comfortable breeding untitled, unproven dogs, you'll never earn any kind of recognition from your peers or anyone that does care about the breed.
> 
> The whole point of a title is for the rest of us that don't have the ability to work our dogs in the venue they were meant to be worked in, to be able to prove that they can come as close as possible to that real working venue.
> 
> No one cares when real working dogs get bred if they don't have titles. The dog has clearly proven that it's capable of work. But when you're talking to the majority of people, most think that "great pet" is enough reason to breed, and that's their standard of "my dog is an excellent example of the breed." Most people don't understand that a breed only exists because at some point in time there was a real working purpose for this dog that was more than just sit at home and bark at strangers. Without a title, or training, there's no way to prove that the dog in question is capable of whatever claim the breeder/owner is making about the dog.


My apologies if I am confusing you, I am not referring to my own dog. I will do what I want regardless what anyone else thinks. Maybe I should have said "If someone thinks their dog is" and perhaps we wouldn't be going back and forth once again. I don't know why you keep bringing up pets. Are you trying to suggest that I am not qualified to determine whether my dog is a pet or not? I don't think you know me well enough to make that judgment . I think you would be surprised how much I actually do know about dogs. I am by no means an expert, but I've helped my uncle whelp litters, administer emergency care, and I've been involved with more than just dogs but also rabbits, tarantulas, stock fish, and horses when I was young. I've also been doing lots of volunteer work and I've fostered 3 separate litters of puppies for a couple of rescue groups. I think I have a pretty good grasp on how things are supposed to work. Anyways, perhaps I was a little fast in posting this. I thought I would get some better insight on these matters, but all that's happened is made the confusion worse. Over and out!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sorry GLH, just a bit off topic, do any other breeds have a "breed test" like schutzhund? Just curious.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Sorry GLH, just a bit off topic, do any other breeds have a "breed test" like schutzhund? Just curious.


I like you Nigel, you may hi-jack my thread. So sayeth Candace! :laugh:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IF breeding required anything (IPO/SchH, PSA, Ring, SDA, AKC OB, Tracking, herding, Conformation, something) there would be far more options and far less cost. Because we can do as we wish in the USA, as far as breeding, all of the working/sport venues are, for the most part, done as a hobby, job or as a passion so will always cost more. I don't know any hobbies that don't require us to make some type of financial sacrifices to participate.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

That's fine...but for you to know what a "pet" is supposed to be is night and day from knowing what an excellent example of a GSD is supposed to be.

Even speaking in general...what makes anyone qualified to know if their dog is a good example of a breed if they've never taken the time to compare their dog to other dogs in their breed. Many people go through life meeting very few dogs of their same breed. And even then, it's in passing, and the dog is probably generally pretty well behaved. Doesn't say anything about the actual dog if you've only seen it for 5 minutes. Or say you meet 10 bad GSDs that never got any training, you have no idea what kind of lines they are from, and who bred them, but they're bad dogs. You now think that your "trained" dog is an amazing animal and should be bred.

Unfortunately, I've seen enough examples of dogs that come out of kennels that are just breeding for "pet quality" dogs. Things get forgotten, people stop worrying about certain traits and abilities, and the dogs slide by because they're sold to homes that don't know the difference between a good or a bad dog. Or those homes blame an upbringing or a single life experience when the dog was young for issues that are more than likely genetic anyways. The dogs that come out of those kennels...they're the ones you read about having all the issues.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I like you Nigel, you may hi-jack my thread. So sayeth Candace! :laugh:


Thank you! I like you too and your line of questioning. It got me wondering about other breed tests. I'd guess breeders of Malinois and other working dogs would use schutzhund, ipo, ring, ect... As a measuring stick for breed worthiness too?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

https://www.akc.org/events/titles.cfm

This is just the AKC titles. You can see how many of them are breed specific. Then there are separate registries for basically every breed out there that have their own things.

Basically...there is more than likely a title out there that makes the original purpose of the dog into a "sport."


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Like most things, how much it costs depends on how much you put into it. I train almost every day. I am in multiple groups and play in multiple venues. I'm also a helper/decoy for multiple venues/groups. Some groups I get paid, some groups I do it for free and some groups I pay someone else. My biggest expense is my equipment and fuel to get there. 

When I first started, I would do side work for my trainer as payment. I'm a mechanic by trade and would work on her car for free labor in exchange for training. As my helper work progressed, I would do free helper work for her private clients in exchange for my training. It's not all about money. Where there is a will there is a way. I do not respect trainers that are all about the money, however no one can do it for free. Trials are expensive to hold. Someone has to pay for them. Also IME, people who get all their training for free are the same ones who don't put in a lot of effort and do the homework.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Is there something taboo for breeding for "pet quality" animals? I am only asking this because the population of pet homes is much greater than how a lot of you are in regards to actively working/showing your dogs. And when I say "pet quality", I am including taking into consideration what temperament, drive, and health quality a pet owner would perceive as beneficial. Not everyone wants a high drive, all over the place GSD. Does that necessarily equate to, "Well, then you can't have one!". No it shouldn't. If the dog is health checked/certified, has a nice BALANCED temperament (not too soft, not too game), and they are maintaining standards, which for me, are very all over the place and open to interpretation (my only gripe with the GSD breed set a standard already and stick with it, why are there SOO many lines that are so incredibly varied???), why is this bad? BTW I am not suggesting that we should all go out and start producing pet puppies because too much of ANYTHING is bad. I also want to mention I read a very interesting article how a lot of people really don't want a lot of competition when it comes to titling, so it seems that perhaps some opinions are much more than that, they are protecting their turf. Because hey, who wants all hands in the honey pot right? If we made it more of a "public friendly" kind of deal, then I would think a lot of people would be very mad because they found out after all the money they spent, some unknown dog that didn't have a stellar pedigree stole their glory. I mean there's a reason they tell beginners to pick a dog breed that is more in the middle of the road to limit competition right? It's easier to be the big fish in a small pond than just a fish in an ocean...


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Is there something taboo for breeding for "pet quality" animals? I am only asking this because the population of pet homes is much greater than how a lot of you are in regards to actively working/showing your dogs. And when I say "pet quality", I am including taking into consideration what temperament, drive, and health quality a pet owner would perceive as beneficial. Not everyone wants a high drive, all over the place GSD. Does that necessarily equate to, "Well, then you can't have one!". No it shouldn't. If the dog is health checked/certified, has a nice BALANCED temperament (not too soft, not too game), and they are maintaining standards, which for me, are very all over the place and open to interpretation (my only gripe with the GSD breed set a standard already and stick with it, why are there SOO many lines that are so incredibly varied???), why is this bad? BTW I am not suggesting that we should all go out and start producing pet puppies because too much of ANYTHING is bad. I also want to mention I read a very interesting article how a lot of people really don't want a lot of competition when it comes to titling, so it seems that perhaps some opinions are much more than that, they are protecting their turf. Because hey, who wants all hands in the honey pot right? If we made it more of a "public friendly" kind of deal, then I would think a lot of people would be very mad because they found out after all the money they spent, some unknown dog that didn't have a stellar pedigree stole their glory. I mean there's a reason they tell beginners to pick a dog breed that is more in the middle of the road to limit competition right? It's easier to be the big fish in a small pond than just a fish in an ocean...



Yes there is something wrong with breeding for pet quality. The fact is, most can go to a rescue or shelter and find the perfect pet. Those that don't want a high energy and drivey dog shouldn't get a GSD. They are a high energy breed. That doesn't mean they can't shut off though. Just look at the threads on here. Everybody says they have a high drive dog, when most don't have the experience to make that statement. What many consider to be high drive is probably mediocre drive or neurotic behaviors. 

Sports and trials are open to all who want to enter. They are all advertised and published. No one is stopping people from entering. They are public friendly. Heck I advertise every SDA trial on here, yet still don't see people coming to check it out. Why? It's free to come watch and minimal cost to enter. So those that don't are just making excuses.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Go and join a club, start training and trialing. Stop reading people's opinions on what happens because that's just one person's experience. People are extremely friendly, experienced people want more people in the sport. Without new people, all dog sport will die. I was just at the USCA Nationals...I spoke with a few of the world team members from this past year. You wouldn't believe how down to earth, nice, and open they are about everything. They're happy to hear about new people joining the sport. Trust me, those people aren't worried about me taking away any of their glory or their money...it will take decades to get to that level.

Your idea of a less drivy GSD is basically saying, breed the dog down to the customer instead of trying to breed the best possible dog you can. Who cares about how big the market is? The reason the “pet market” wants a GSD is because of how it looks and because of the reputation that has been established because of those “more drivey” dogs. Nothing else. You (general you) want a dog that looks like your local K9, but doesn’t act like one because you (again, general) can’t handle a dog that might have that level of drive. What does a GSD provide a “pet home” that a different breed wouldn’t? At the end of the day, people get dogs because of what they want, not what they need. It’s not a big deal, I don’t care why people get the dog they do, but when you start thinking it’s alright for breeders to breed for that market…it’s wrong.

Without testing a dog, what exactly is a “BALANCED” temperament? The dog doesn’t eat people? It doesn’t try to kill everything that moves? That’s not really my idea of an exceptional GSD. A dog has “no” issues in the house so that makes it a good enough GSD to breed?

Truth is…the thing that happens when you become “ok” with people breeding those dogs…temperament is forgotten about and the dogs get worse and worse. You don’t keep getting “great pets” you start getting aggression, weak nerves, low thresholds. You also get those people that don’t do their research, get one of those pets, then decide they want to do some sort of dog sport…and the dog ends up not being capable of it (so there’s another person out of the sport).

The more good breeders you get to know…the more you realize how any of their dogs would do just fine in any home. They’re not crazy dogs, they’re not hard to deal with. Most of them could easily do Schutzhund, agility, or another sport but are just as happy being an active companion. There’s absolutely no need to breed a different type of animal for the pet market. If a breeder is breeding for the correct reasons, their dogs can do anything and everything the home they’re placed in expects from them.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Yes there is something wrong with breeding for pet quality. The fact is, most can go to a rescue or shelter and find the perfect pet. Those that don't want a high energy and drivey dog shouldn't get a GSD. They are a high energy breed. That doesn't mean they can't shut off though. Just look at the threads on here. Everybody says they have a high drive dog, when most don't have the experience to make that statement. What many consider to be high drive is probably mediocre drive or neurotic behaviors.
> 
> Sports and trials are open to all who want to enter. They are all advertised and published. No one is stopping people from entering. They are public friendly. Heck I advertise every SDA trial on here, yet still don't see people coming to check it out. Why? It's free to come watch and minimal cost to enter. So those that don't are just making excuses.


I guess I am somewhat inclined to agree with you in regards to the top statement. Just wanted to know why it was so bad. I personally feel that a lot of the GSD's I see being bred, are WAY too aggressive. It's a herding dog, not an Akita which WAS bred specifically for aggression/fighting and not intelligence. I was under the impression that intelligence is one of the more important aspects over the breed, along with it's willingness to work, and to be versatile. I just think that sometimes people try to justify breeding overly aggressive by saying, "Well that's what they are". I guess I am failing to see the balance in a dog that's super high drive, super high energy. That is not balance, that's one side of the spectrum. If you are breeding dogs to just be for protection, or just for sport, Why are these encouraged then because versatile to me means that a dog can be utilized in many situations and be highly adaptable. Should we be breeding for things that hold human value? I'm pretty sure a dog doesn't go up to its owner and say, "Hey I wanna enroll in a fly ball competition today". Those are human wants, not dog wants. So wouldn't it be fair to say that there are breeders out there that are kind of doing the same thing as pet breeders but in a different way? BTW this is something I want to know what other opinions are. * This is not my opinion as of yet, but I need clarification to form an opinion.*

As far as being advertised and published, where? I've never seen a flyer come to my house, or seen a commercial on TV...Is this kind of like what the government says when someone doesn't know about a new law? Oh, it's published, but we didn't tell you where it was published, or notify you that the information is available. Heck, I don't even get anything from the AKC about trials or anything, but they sure send me tons of emails to buy something stupid I don't need lol. I only know since being to this board about any of this stuff. It is pretty obvious that being published and being published widely are important here.

Edit: I keep bringing up Akitas because in the summers when I was young, I used to visit my grandma whose best friend was a very reputable Akita breeder down south. It's just mind blowing to me because when you look at Akita lines, there's definitely not a "ton" of variances. A lot of the lines that were brought in were really to just help "purify" the breed since so many had been crossed with European breeds. I prefer the Japanese lines, they are much truer to what they are supposed to be than the American lines...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have found that my GSDs have fun no matter what sports we do. My preferences are IPO (or SDA) and agility, but I no longer do either, at least not seriously. I cannot afford either right now. IPO was too expensive because of the distance (gas), no carpool to share the cost, the wear and tear on my vehicle, and also paying club dues when I could only attend half the training sessions. Agility was too expensive because I need some more experienced instruction and access to safe equipment. Also the entry fees to run my dog more than twice at a trial would bankrupt me pretty fast. Right now I am mostly focused on flyball because it's the best bang for my buck. Club dues are $30 per quarter (and if we end up with extra, it goes back to the club like helping to cover entry fees), training is $5 per session for all three of my dogs. Normal tournaments cost me $35 to enter my team dog and $10 to reserve a pre-flight spot that my two green dogs share. So that's $45 total to run THREE dogs ALL weekend. I can't even go see a movie and get a snack with my husband for $45. By the time Legend is ready to be running on a team ($35), Nikon will be phasing out. Most tournaments are in the middle of nowhere, so hotels are cheap ($45/night), I can share a room with a team mate, or we can camp at the venue if we really want to cheap it. Qualifying and national level tournaments are more expensive to enter, but your team is sharing that cost and you know ahead of time to save up for it, this is something we do twice a year (U-FLI Tournament of Champions and NAFA CanAm Classic). I've found that I can travel and compete once a month with all three of my dogs and still be paying less money than training one dog in IPO and only going for each title once.

Right now I'm sticking to the cheaper sports. My only breeding dog is going on 7 years old and already has all the "breed test" stuff (Schutzhund title, V rating, breed survey) and my younger GSD will not be bred. I miss IPO like crazy and I still dabble in agility since I have so many friends there (they let me drop in during their training sessions), but my dogs are just as happy to play flyball and go lure coursing a few times a year.

As far as the cost per title, I've avoided the really expensive ones like MACHs and RAEs. Those titles represent over $500 just in entry fees alone, assuming you never NQ. IPO is an expensive hobby but it's the training and commitment that is expensive, not the titling itself. You only need to compete once for each title and then you can keep going for fun or to be competitive as far as scores and higher level competitions.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I have found that my GSDs have fun no matter what sports we do. My preferences are IPO (or SDA) and agility, but I no longer do either, at least not seriously. I cannot afford either right now. IPO was too expensive because of the distance (gas), no carpool to share the cost, the wear and tear on my vehicle, and also paying club dues when I could only attend half the training sessions. Agility was too expensive because I need some more experienced instruction and access to safe equipment. Also the entry fees to run my dog more than twice at a trial would bankrupt me pretty fast. Right now I am mostly focused on flyball because it's the best bang for my buck. Club dues are $30 per quarter (and if we end up with extra, it goes back to the club like helping to cover entry fees), training is $5 per session for all three of my dogs. Normal tournaments cost me $35 to enter my team dog and $10 to reserve a pre-flight spot that my two green dogs share. So that's $45 total to run THREE dogs ALL weekend. I can't even go see a movie and get a snack with my husband for $45. By the time Legend is ready to be running on a team ($35), Nikon will be phasing out. Most tournaments are in the middle of nowhere, so hotels are cheap ($45/night), I can share a room with a team mate, or we can camp at the venue if we really want to cheap it. Qualifying and national level tournaments are more expensive to enter, but your team is sharing that cost and you know ahead of time to save up for it, this is something we do twice a year (U-FLI Tournament of Champions and NAFA CanAm Classic). I've found that I can travel and compete once a month with all three of my dogs and still be paying less money than training one dog in IPO and only going for each title once.
> 
> Right now I'm sticking to the cheaper sports. My only breeding dog is going on 7 years old and already has all the "breed test" stuff (Schutzhund title, V rating, breed survey) and my younger GSD will not be bred. I miss IPO like crazy and I still dabble in agility since I have so many friends there (they let me drop in during their training sessions), but my dogs are just as happy to play flyball and go lure coursing a few times a year.
> 
> As far as the cost per title, I've avoided the really expensive ones like MACHs and RAEs. Those titles represent over $500 just in entry fees alone, assuming you never NQ. IPO is an expensive hobby but it's the training and commitment that is expensive, not the titling itself. You only need to compete once for each title and then you can keep going for fun or to be competitive as far as scores and higher level competitions.


Those costs you cited in regards to the sport you choose, are VERY reasonable. Now that kind of thing doesn't bother me. Asking for money to hold a spot, etc make sense to me. That way they make sure people are really going to show up and take it seriously. Thank you for breaking it down for me without being argumentative. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have a hard time accepting statements when in my mind, it's not really adding up. I like asking questions, I like seeing what other peoples opinions are who are actively involved. So thank you my fellow Michigander for taking the time for me


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

How many GSDs do you see that are being bred? Like actually see…and not just see an announcement or something on the internet and then go see a website. Are any of these people actually involved in sport? Or are they just random people that are breeding their dogs? I personally know a lot of breeders and their dogs, and I can’t say that any of their IPO3 dogs are aggressive. I’ve never heard the excuse of “that’s just how they are” from anyone that I would actually respect in the world of GSDs.

You talk about “breeding for things of human value.” So you’re talking about YOUR values, not general values. You’re talking about what you value in a dog, not what the breed standard says the dog should be. The basic premise of any and all breeds is that they were bred for a certain human purpose, and now that you believe that purpose doesn’t fit what you want (but you want one that looks like it) the breed’s temperament should be changed to be something closer to what you want…it makes sense…but it’s very personal and not very “big picture.”

Basically…you’ve admitted to not going to dog shows/sport trials. So I can tell you don’t have much real world experience when it comes to the GSD and the things you’re discussing. A lot of it is probably internet research, maybe seeing a BYB litter here or there, but not much in the sense of what actually happens at a training club (of any venue) and what people that care about the breed actually do and what their values are. Try to get out there, meet people that are passionate about the breed, that are truly trying to breed to the breed standard and really do care about the types of dogs they produce, your view on breeding dogs will greatly change.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

martemchik said:


> How many GSDs do you see that are being bred? Like actually see…and not just see an announcement or something on the internet and then go see a website. Are any of these people actually involved in sport? Or are they just random people that are breeding their dogs? I personally know a lot of breeders and their dogs, and I can’t say that any of their IPO3 dogs are aggressive. I’ve never heard the excuse of “that’s just how they are” from anyone that I would actually respect in the world of GSDs.
> 
> You talk about “breeding for things of human value.” So you’re talking about YOUR values, not general values. You’re talking about what you value in a dog, not what the breed standard says the dog should be. The basic premise of any and all breeds is that they were bred for a certain human purpose, and now that you believe that purpose doesn’t fit what you want (but you want one that looks like it) the breed’s temperament should be changed to be something closer to what you want…it makes sense…but it’s very personal and not very “big picture.”
> 
> Basically…you’ve admitted to not going to dog shows/sport trials. So I can tell you don’t have much real world experience when it comes to the GSD and the things you’re discussing. A lot of it is probably internet research, maybe seeing a BYB litter here or there, but not much in the sense of what actually happens at a training club (of any venue) and what people that care about the breed actually do and what their values are. Try to get out there, meet people that are passionate about the breed, that are truly trying to breed to the breed standard and really do care about the types of dogs they produce, your view on breeding dogs will greatly change.


I really don't understand anything about your post, sorry. I don't know why you keep throwing "me" into the mix. First off, as I mentioned earlier, I will do as I please. Just because I wanted to know opinions, doesn't mean I have to follow YOUR opinion to the letter. And I never admitted anything. I did say I only knew about events from being on here which if I needed to clarify, I will now. I've been to at least 4 events in my youth, but nothing as of late. In the last 5 to 7 years, I have not seen any of these advertisements for trials or shows besides the big ones. And no offense, but from your own admission, you are learning a lot in regards to the GSD breed still, so I am not very sure why you are trying to force your opinion upon me. I think you're better off not commenting anymore. I've mentioned this before, but you are extremely condescending. You may not know that, but whether or not you know still doesn't make it sit well. So now that we've hashed THAT out...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Those costs you cited in regards to the sport you choose, are VERY reasonable. Now that kind of thing doesn't bother me. Asking for money to hold a spot, etc make sense to me. That way they make sure people are really going to show up and take it seriously. Thank you for breaking it down for me without being argumentative. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I have a hard time accepting statements when in my mind, it's not really adding up. I like asking questions, I like seeing what other peoples opinions are who are actively involved. So thank you my fellow Michigander for taking the time for me


No prob, I mean I can really break it down if it helps....

Agility

Cost to do drop-ins with a good instructor - $10/person (usually had time to setup, walk, and then run each dog 2x for 3 advanced courses)

Entry fees - I'm not really sure but I want to say $14-$25 per entry. CPE are generally lower. Normally you run your dog 2-3 runs per day, Sat and Sun (sometimes Fri too).

Classes - our training facility was destroyed by a tornado so all the agility people I know are using another place that is I believe about $110 for a 6 week course. I think if you pay $50 to be a "member", the class fees are $10 cheaper? Something along those lines

IPO

The last club I was with has changed so I'm not sure if this is still correct, but when I joined I paid $100 startup fee, then it was $200/yr (generally we paid $20/mo but no payments in Dec/Jan). They trained twice a week, but I could only go once since I live almost 3 hours away, no chance I can go to the mid-week sessions (I wouldn't get there until 10PM!!).

Trial entry fees are about $45-$75 depending on what you're entering and whether you're a member of the organization (I think I paid like $45 for an AD being a USCA member and $75 for a SchH1)

The biggest cost was the gas, traveling over 2.5 hours each way. I also had to get a hotel overnight for trials because I lived so far even from my own club. My first BH I did two states away (before I was in a club that hosted their own trials).

Oh, and it's $100/yr to be a member of USCA.


Dock diving

I don't pay to train, do that on my own. At the UKC Premier it's $20/splash if you pre-enter ($25 day-of). Other UAD events are generally cheaper, more like $10-$15 if you pre-enter. You can "practice" at an event for $10. At a weeknight event there are usually 3 splashes each night; at the Premier more like 5-6 per day. Dock diving is done by points so the more you jump the more points you get.


Flyball

already talked about that


Lure Coursing

$25 per run day-of max two runs per day. $20 to pre-enter. A U-CA is 3 legs, a U-CAX is 12 additional legs. Not sure about AKC titles. GSDs cannot earn normal LC titles, only the CA titles. The places that do LC meets are about 1.5 hours from me and we do this in May and June.


Conformation - SV style

Entries are usually about $45-$70 depending on the class. For a club show you generally pay your handler the same as the entry fee, so say $80 to show a puppy. There are no SV shows in MI ever, all the ones I do are north of Chicago, Indy, or in southern Kentucky so there is that travel expense.


Conformation - UKC

Day-of entries are $25 per class, $20 pre-entry. If you are showing at a "cluster" type event where they have 5 shows over a weekend, often they give you a deal if you pre-enter all 5. Pro handling is not allowed so there are no handling fees. The venues where I do UKC shows are about 1.5 hours from me, not bad. If I go more than one day, I don't stay overnight.


K9 Nosework

The classes I took were about $100 per session. I had to register with NACSW before our trial but I don't remember the cost (they have a website). I don't remember the cost of the trial either, sorry, but it's like SchH, you pay one entry fee and have to pass all four parts to earn the title (other nosework orgs have different requirements). It is becoming very popular now so I only drove 1.5 hour for my birch ORT and 1 hour for a NW1 trial.


I do not do all these things all the time, just giving an idea of what we've dabbled in and what I've paid. Right now flyball is the only thing I do seriously and compete year round. My younger dogs are also doing some agility foundation work, but I am doing this at home with the guidance of another member here and they are not advanced enough to require more equipment and instruction yet. I also do dock diving and disc with my young GSD, but I only "train" dock diving in the summer at the cottage and I enter competitions in June and July. I do not belong to the local dock diving club because they had crazy vaccine requirements to get on their dock and it's more than an hour away anyway. Disc is something I just mess around with for exercise. My dog only does toss and fetch which is distance; he doesn't do freestyle or tricks, too big and I'm not comfortable with that type of training at this age (hard on joints and ligaments).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> I guess I am somewhat inclined to agree with you in regards to the top statement. Just wanted to know why it was so bad. I personally feel that a lot of the GSD's I see being bred, are WAY too aggressive. It's a herding dog, not an Akita which WAS bred specifically for aggression/fighting and not intelligence. I was under the impression that intelligence is one of the more important aspects over the breed, along with it's willingness to work, and to be versatile. I just think that sometimes people try to justify breeding overly aggressive by saying, "Well that's what they are". I guess I am failing to see the balance in a dog that's super high drive, super high energy. That is not balance, that's one side of the spectrum. If you are breeding dogs to just be for protection, or just for sport, Why are these encouraged then because versatile to me means that a dog can be utilized in many situations and be highly adaptable.


Here is where you wrote you see a lot of GSDs being bred. So I'm wondering what kinds of GSDs these are.

I'm not pushing anything on you. I'm just telling you what the real world is like. Away from this forum, and away from this computer screen. The way real, good, reputable breeders do things. I know a lot of these people, I meet their dogs, I train with their dogs, and I talk to them about these issues.

When you start seeing those dogs, and then you also see the usual "byb/pet market" breeder dogs. You quickly notice differences. It's pretty cool once you've seen enough GSDs to make those distinctions.

BTW...you also have ZERO idea how much experience I currently have. Yeah...I've only been involved in dog sport for about 5 years now. But I've done a lot of different AKC trialing, I've done SDA, and I'm currently training in Schutzhund. So I've met a lot of different people and a lot of people that can have a very large impact on this breed as a whole (judges and extremely high level competitors). You don't need decades in the world to meet a lot of people, you just have to be willing to do it and to strike up conversations. It's why that real world experience, and seeing how things are actually done is way more valuable than reading articles and opinions from people who you have no idea who they are.

I was basically new to all of this 5 years ago, and I understand your opinion and where you are really well (I used to think the exact same way). It's why my first dog...is a BYB dog that wasn't out of proven stock. So I'm just telling you that it's not that far of a stretch to get a lot of information and change your current opinion about things. I told you what I see weekly...it's not the money that stops people from doing dog sport, it's all of life's other commitments. Dog sport and titling is available to anyone and everyone, you just have to know where to look.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Published events:
IPO- United Schutzhund Clubs of America ? Clubs & Events
DVG AMERICA Main Menu
SDA- Service Dogs of America
PSA- Events | PSA K9


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I train for the fun of it, not for the titles. Of course titling is a goal because I have to have some sort of goal. But the journey with the dog I love is what I'm focused on. I don't look at the cost(it is mostly in fuel) or the time I spend as a detriment. I won't do certain sports just to earn a title because those sports really aren't of interest to me. 
Titles aren't the end all be all. 
Yet I still hold a HOT earned IPO title in high regard, that isn't an easy one to achieve. It still doesn't prove the dog is worthy of reproducing.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> Am I missing something here? I am speaking in general terms in regards to titling/showing your dog. I don't know all the titles and I don't pretend to. I would assume if someone had a strong interest in doing these things they would be aware of that correct? I am keeping it general because if we start splitting hairs on every little thing, no real answers ever come out. Let's not be so political about the topic and just use GENERAL TERMS. General! I am not referring to any specific title!
> 
> Point of topic: Why is there so much monetary value placed on a title when it's supposed to be about improving the breed or determining the best specimens of that breed? If this was really all about the breed, wouldn't it be more financially friendly? I am thinking in a logical sense how a "hobby" equals maintaining breed standards? A "hobby" and a "job" are quite different. One suggests a leisure or time for personal pleasure, the other suggest a pre-defined task or employment. Kudos to the breeders on here though that are breaking their backs and doing their best to maintain the breed. But do you really think you should have to do that? Should it be so financially driven?


my take for what its worth, if you are talking about the show ring, it is usually breeders competing. from what i have seen in local shows, is they often enter more than one dog and have a handler, "$", then the rv they travel in, "$". then they proceed from show to show until finished. more "dollars. many of these RV are 100000.00 plus. thats for the big time. as for shutzhund, for me all fees were waived as part of the "package" when i purchased kyra as it was the breeder who did the training and ran the club.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I don't think titling is out of people's reach because of money. I think it is out of people's reach because of location and lack of time. There's no way I could ever do Schutzhund where I live. I would have to drive four hours to the nearest club. And that's assuming that club is any good. This is not the fault of the industry or a matter of socioeconomic class, it's just a matter of the sport not being popular enough in the states.

I do participate in AKC events (tracking/obedience) and find the fees and equipment to be extremely reasonable. Tracking is practically free. I do not do it to prove anything about my dog, just to become a better trainer. And it's given me a lot of insight into what other people's titles really mean. How much work went into them and how difficult they actually are (or not) to achieve. I also do SAR and that is extremely expensive, unfortunately, but we are middle class and can still afford it. I think if I had kids or other hobbies like world travel I definitely could not afford it. Again, though, it's really more about the time and the effort- are you willing to make the right connections and travel to train in awful weather at inconvenient times because that is when your team could meet? Where do your priorities really lie: with working/showing your dogs or something else? A lot of people don't want to spend their weekends that way. Or they have family commitments.

So, basically I think *generally speaking* competing is a really time intensive hobby that can be expensive or not expensive depending on how lucky, connected, and thrifty you are. It's certainly far, far less than the cost of having a breeding operation.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Well, thank you everyone as I can now formulate a more solid opinion. I am just lucky because my uncle is inviting myself, my spouse, and our dogs to go up there to help start the basics on herding. He has sheep, goats, and some llamas that he raises. He thinks that his dog should be a good "helper" as she has helped out with other dogs in the area to sort of guide through. So this is the direction I am taking. But my interest in tracking is now aroused, and will look into that also. Now I can see that it's not the actual events that are making a killing, it's all the preparation and training that really takes up the funds. This is helpful, because now I am more aware of what this entails...Should be lots of fun in store for the future!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a note for you. Aussie's and BC's have a totally different style of herding than GSD's.

Tracking! Love it! So quiet. Just you and your dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Point of topic: Why is there so much monetary value placed on a title when it's supposed to be about improving the breed or determining the best specimens of that breed?


My perspective on this single point, its not simply a "Title". The knowledge of the breeder is what I'm really looking for when I'm buying a dog. What they learned mostly with the dog being bred, but also what they know about the dogs in the pedigree and what they produced. 

The title or titles mean something to me because I see it as independent verification of the dog. If you trust the breeder that just tell's you my dogs can do that, even though its all been in their yard, that's everyone's choice, I've just never met anyone I'd trust like that.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Just a note for you. Aussie's and BC's have a totally different style of herding than GSD's.
> 
> Tracking! Love it! So quiet. Just you and your dog.


He had mentioned something similar, too crazy. But I think he feels that because Lady is so conditioned and calm with other dogs, that it would help out a little bit. He said he's worked with a couple of GSD's with success so that makes me feel better. I think Lena would excel at anything with scent work really. She has alerted me again recently to another carpenter ant nest that was under the decking. We killed them. But I've learned that when she gets close to the nests, she hard blows out of her nose over and over again (I'm guessing she's trying to pull the scent in? idk) and barks for me to look at it. This is the 4th nest she's helped me locate within the last 5 months...


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## QballK (Nov 2, 2014)

IPO in Germany is the sport of the little man.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You might be able to get an idea of how GSD's herd from this page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/323459651003706/


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

Going to have to check that one out...Here's the one I've been reading as of late

German Shepherd Herding » The German Shepherd Herding Dog

Not sure how truthful it is, but it "seems" pretty solid and makes sense...Any objections?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

One of the best sources. Ellen knows her stuff.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't know Ellen-but I have trained with Ulf-so I would probably pick Ellen


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Girl_Loves_Hydraulics said:


> As far as being advertised and published, where? I've never seen a flyer come to my house, or seen a commercial on TV...Is this kind of like what the government says when someone doesn't know about a new law? Oh, it's published, but we didn't tell you where it was published, or notify you that the information is available. Heck, I don't even get anything from the AKC about trials or anything, but they sure send me tons of emails to buy something stupid I don't need lol. I only know since being to this board about any of this stuff. It is pretty obvious that being published and being published widely are important here.
> 
> ..


.54 seconds gave me the Facebook page of your local area Kennel club
https://www.facebook.com/DKCDogShow?sk=wall

I don't know their practices on advertising but I know what our local kennel club does. 
We do radio interviews.
We do flyers.
We do billboards on occasion.
We have a website and a Facebook page.
We have a monthly newsletter.

And, of course, all AKC events can be found at American Kennel Club - Dog Shows and Trials

No, the AKC doesn't send out emails about trials because it would take an entire staff dedicated to just that. Not to mention the logistics of deciding who to send info about what event. Some people are willing to travel only a short distance. Others are willing to travel all over the country. Some are interested in this type of venue but not that type. This sport but not that one. 

The interested person DOES have to put in the first bit of effort. They have to find a club that hosts the type of event that they are interested in. After that, you know what is going on. You get end up getting emails to events that you would never be able to attend because there just aren't enough hours in the day! lol


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I just got 2 legs of Hunter's CKC CD title, the entries cost me $60 and then plus gas... whatever it was, I don't know. To train for it? Didn't really cost much, since I did it on my own with some help from my breeder (advice) and more recently, the small IPO group I train with.

IPO is expensive if you're with a club, but trial fees I find no more expensive than anything else.

CGN, TT... I think those were both under $60. I can't remember what the SV show cost me, but I think round $70?


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