# Grim saw the new trainer...



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

For 1:1 training to fix his issues. FIRST I want to thank Lisa for all her help that got us to this place to begin with!! 

When I talked to the trainer on the phone about Grim and we set things up, she'd told me she was going to 'make him mad'. I thought "OK"... he loves everyone, though...so I couldn't imagine how she was going to make him mad. We went to our 'usual' class first, though. Grim didn't come out of the van barking, and actually was able to potty without running around barking...which was his usual MO. We went into the building (after a sit and 'watch me') and he wasn't barking like a nut, but was doing a lot of whining. He did sit and down and look at me a few times, but as more people showed up, his whining got more intense. So I put him up for the class. So we met the new trainer right after. She wanted to evaluate him and me. 

She thinks he's a good dog, and thinks that we can probably be back in classes by April... which is good news. Pretty much all of his issues are handler problems. He has problems with being in his 'hind brain' and not calming down to listen and learn. He's got some confusion over what's going on and what's expected of him. I just rocked his world by going from "you can do whatever you want" to "here's a new list of rules and consequences". :blush: Grim wants things Grim's way. No new news there... he's always been like that. When he doesn't get his way, he gets mad and has a temper tantrum. He can throw a HUGE tantrum, BTW.  He's an alpha. When he doesn't want to do something, he will refuse to do it. If you push him about it, he can get nasty to get his point across. I've let him 'win' about 1000 little battles without even realizing it. 

She DID make him mad, too! When he was whining and vocalizing, she took him by his flat collar and started rubbing him on his side. This totally ticked him off. He didn't want to be restrained, and he didn't want to be touched. So he threatened to bite her a few times, and took a few swipes at her, too.  Later when we were sitting on the floor and he was laying next to me, he started staring at her. Hard enough where even I noticed it. She said "Yeah, he's challenging me. He's looking for a fight." :shocked: My boy has done some serious changing. I also found out that when I tell him to 'sit' and he doesn't...so I keep on him until I do... and then I give him a treat...that was a bad idea. She only treats if he does it the FIRST time. So when she didn't, he let her know ALL about it! He was griping at her up, down, and sideways! "I get a treat. HELLO?!?!? I SAT so I get a TREAT. Where is my treat?? GIVE ME MY FRIGGIN TREAT, LADY!!!" Um, that's part of why he blows me off. He gets a treat if he does it the first time, or if he does it the fourth time. Sigh. So he's going to be getting a basket muzzle to continue this work of attitude adjustment. I NEVER thought he'd try to bite someone just because he didn't want to do something. 

Anyone who ever thinks they want an alpha... all I can say is "good luck". So much more work and management. What was really funny is about half way through, she called him "Mr. Grim". I started calling him that after his attitude came shining through, LOL. It just seemed natural to call him that. I don't know if that's why she did, but it struck me as funny. So, lots more work ahead of us, but in the end should have great results. I just have to be more careful about how I do things with him. I have 'blinked' a few times, and those were serious "wins" to him. :crazy: I love this guy to death, and no doubt he's going to be a seriously awesome dog!! I'm glad that I've got help now, though, before things get more out of control. Bringing him down a few pegs is going to take some work, though, and also me thinking before I do something to make sure I'm not handing him a 'win' over something.


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## BellaLuna (Jan 27, 2013)

Well best of luck to you and Mr,Grim I know it can be trying and stressful but in the end your hard work and dedication to him will pay off . Just harder b/c he wants what he wants in time that will hopefully change


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

he thinks he's alpha over you. with continued training and guidance he'll be fine I'm sure. good luck!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Actually, he thinks he's alpha over everyone, LOL! Yes, we'll be fine though.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Good luck!!


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Oh, Grim!  I'm glad you found a trainer who's able to help with his training. I'm learning so much from your experiences, please keep the stories coming. 

While I was reading about his staring to challenge the trainer, I started to wonder how you would know when your dog stares at you to challenge your position as alpha. If I teach my dog "watch me" and reward the fact that he looks at me, doesn't the dog consider looking at someone as a good thing? I've actually never thought about this before, since I've always taught all of my dogs to look at me. But, if I teach my dog to make and hold eye contact with me, am I not teaching him that eye contact with people is a great thing? Doesn't it become just another command like sit and stay?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jag said:


> * *We went into the building (after a sit and 'watch me') and he wasn't barking like a nut, but was doing a lot of whining. He did sit and down and look at me a few times, but as more people showed up, his whining got more intense. So I put him up for the class.*
> 
> * **I just rocked his world by going from "you can do whatever you want" to "here's a new list of rules and consequences"*
> 
> ...



I bolded what stood out to me....as far as the 'hind brain' what did she mean by that???? Did you ask for an explaination?

* I would have pulled out a toy, engaged him, asked for some obedience(positions) while waiting~ instead of sitting there, he was building up his frustration which showed in leaking verbally. I don't think I'd put him up but go off to the other end of the training area and worked him some. Too bad the instructor didn't suggest this if she was observing Grim's behavior.

**Dogs are very, very intelligent and just because you changed the game and its rules, no reason Grim won't easily transition into his new level of playing. As the dogs mature, we do expect more and pressure is placed on the dog to do what is asked...that makes them stronger in character and does build the bond between the handler/dog when you ask more, you get more respect. I found this out with Karlo...I never really asked much of him, until we started the formal retrieves. 

*** Many young males do not want to be touched by people they don't know, and will ramp up....not saying it is ok, but it is fairly normal. And really who can blame them? 

**** I agree, ask once, don't repeat, give it 3 seconds and correct. No reward for no effort. 
Don't be discouraged. He's young and and it'll come! Just find a consistent working method and stick with it for a bit. 

I don't agree at all with a muzzle, it'll just frustrate him and he's way too young for that.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I think I missed something in all of this. The muzzle part. She says I have to get a basket muzzle for him because she wants me to force him on his side and pet him to get him to 'settle'. Of course, he's going to take this as a challenge and I don't want to fight with my dog! After I left and digested the info., it occurred to me that this was basically 'alpha rolling' with another name and another purpose. I don't think it's a good idea. No, the 'thinking with the hind brain' wasn't explained. I know he isn't settled or focused enough to pay attention and learn at that point. However, at home he's doing OK in that department. I think the class was 'too much' distraction, along with some fit throwing. 

After talking to his breeder, we need to go to another trainer. One with more GSD specific experience. I should have intervened on my boy's behalf when he was distressed. I was just trying to figure out when the 'calming' part was going to happen, because that's what I'm interested in. 

Poor Grim was angry (and I think confused) for HOURS afterward. He's never had a problem with me grabbing his leash, but he did tonight. Then he ended up taking it out on the poor Pug. So he went to his kennel to cool off and take a nap.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Hey what changed?? In your first post you sounded positive and happy about what you had done - now in the last post you seem negative toward it?? 

What do you think Grim will do if you ask him to drop and then quietly roll him on his side and gently restrain him?

Grim does sound a bit like the spoilt kid in the supermarket that throws a screaming tantrum to get mum to buy a chocolate bar


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Mooch said:


> Hey what changed?? In your first post you sounded positive and happy about what you had done - now in the last post you seem negative toward it??
> 
> What do you think Grim will do if you ask him to drop and then quietly roll him on his side and gently restrain him?
> 
> Grim does sound a bit like the spoilt kid in the supermarket that throws a screaming tantrum to get mum to buy a chocolate bar


Some days I think slow. Today is one of those days. I failed to see the 'calming' in what she did. It looked like trying to dominate him. He was mad for SO long after. Then the thing about muzzling him to roll him and pet him (but don't let him up) that is supposed to calm him. Sounds like an alpha roll. I'm not interested in fighting my dog. What would happen? Likely a fight that I couldn't win.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

The thing that didn't make sense to me is why she made him "mad'? I figured I was just missing the point, was she trying to see what his reaction would be?

I think what she's trying to do is different from alpha rolling, to me an alpha a roll happens when the dog is doing something wrong - it's a very aggressive move from the handler, grab the scruff and throw the dog of balance so he falls, then pin him to the floor till he goes "floppy" and submits.

I think what she is trying to do (and I may be wrong) is to get him to lay down then get him on his side (which takes calmness and trust in you) where you then quietly pet him and gently restrain him while being calm yourself.
I do that with all my dogs at home quite often, I will ask for a down then physically (gently) roll them on their side and restrain them (while scratching their ruff or chest) I speak quietly to them and tell them to "settle" and they do actually go "soft" - if Hex struggles I apply a bit more pressure till he relaxes again. It's very hard to explain but it's invaluable at the Vet or if they are really stressed. 
Perhaps you could try that with Grim at home after he's had a busy day and is a bit worn out and sleepy?

I think a trainer that is used to dealing with "hard" GSDs is a god idea - but you may also have to be tough yourself, from your posts it sounds like Mr. Grim is walking all over you because you love him so much and you don't want to cause a conflict between the 2 of you. (I can totally relate to that btw) 



> I should have intervened on my boy's behalf when he was distressed.


Reading your original post it sounds like he got distressed because he didn't get his way? 
I think that for them moment that is likely always going to happen never mind who you train with, Grim wants to play or whine or whatever - so as soon as any trainer asks him to do something he won't be happy. 
But he will soon learn that training is fun, he gets attention and ideally you could find a good trainer that can teach you to train him in a way that makes Grim think he's training you 
You want to do dog sport with him which means he has to have respect, and he has to listen and most of all he has to have trust in you - he can't just do whatever he wants. 
I think a bit of tough love is needed, as Onyx said above, the more you ask of him the more respect you're going to get from him  He won't hate you for correcting him but he may be sulky about it for a while. (just like a teenager that thinks they know everything then get told they can't go and do something they want to do LOL)

I'm not a good dog trainer by any stretch of the imagination (I bet you've seen some of my posts where I've asked for lots of advise on here) so please don't feel I'm lecturing you or having a go. I really like reading your stories, you seem like a guy who absolutely adores his dog and you're struggling with training him because of it - I would like to help you 
Just try and get someone that will be consistent with his training, do you do NILIF with him?
I don't know if you like to read but I found this book really good, to me the method of training they describe make a lot of sense. 
Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive : Paperback : Sheila Booth : 9780966302028


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jane had an.excellent post.

I agree with your breeder that you should go to another trainer, one that doesn't focus so heavily on alpha and dominance theory. A strong willed dog is not trying to be apha, control you or anything else that looks or sounds like a struggle, they are just trying to do what is fun and rewarding to them. Has nothing to do with their "position" is in relation to us.

Stop looking at it as if your dog is in conflict with you and you will have a much easier time and a lot more fun. Start thinking about what you can do to motivate your dog to work WITH you. If you needed protective gear (muzzle) to work something basic with your dog, something is wrong.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sorry things didn't work out with the trainer. She trained with and works extensively with Brenda Arloff (sp?). I am not that familiar with Brenda's method. Unfortunately the other person I would highly recommend because of his experience with GSD would be a 3.5-4 hour drive which would be nuts. I have one other person I can ask, but she is 1/2 hour south of Cleveland and I don't know how she runs her classes. I'll let you know when I hear back from her. 

For now I would continue working on what you have been working on, but have no other suggestions.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I agree with mooch, doesn't sound like an alpha roll, at least the way I understand it. As far as the need for a muzzle, I can only guess that the trainer, being able to see how Grim behaves, thinks its a necessary precaution IDK.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I really don't buy into the alpha crap....if a trainer told me that everytime I blinked my dog won I would laugh to myself and tell them to have a nice day....

Buuut, I do think its important to teach a dog to relax, like roll over on a hip when laying down. I did have to physically force havoc into that position because trying to shape it proved impossible with him. There certainly was no confrontation in it though. To me if you have to muzzle him, you have pushed too far too fast. Havoc wears a muzzle to be handled at the vet because its safer for the vets. I agree that if he has to be wearing a muzzle to be handled by you something is very wrong. 

It sucks that you are having so much trouble with trainers, I would be investing my money in books that help you learn how to deal with him doesn't sound like the trainer route is workin very well for you guys. And giving advice over the Internet is so tough without being able to see the dog. It's way too easy to give the wrong advice based on what the behaviour sounds like. 

(On a side note I have been there with letting someone do something to my dog that REALLY bothered me after, don't beat yourself up too bad)


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks, Kristi. The muzzle suggestion wasn't because he tried to bite me. He didn't. He's never bitten me. I didn't know what to think of what she was saying, but even if it's a good idea (which parts of it didn't sound horrible) she pushed him into a place that really rocked his world. I think we may end up doing books, DVD's, etc. and train on our own. I don't like to continue driving all over and spending money when I'm just not getting what he needs. His breeder has been a huge help, and I'm going to continue with what we're doing. He WAS much better at the class building (inside and out) than what he has been in the past. So something is obviously working.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Oh, and I just tried brushing him again (something he doesn't like) with asserting that I *was* going to do it, and he gave in. He also had NO issue with showing me his belly while laying on his side. He even grabbed his antler to chew on while he got his belly rubbed and scratched! :wub:


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

All dogs need to learn restraint skills, for their safety and for those humans that must handle them. You should be able to brush his coat, trim his nails, brush his teeth, clean his ears. These are basic puppy skills and build respect for you as a fair and benevolent leader. Laying him on his side is a restraint position, it is used by vets and you may find it handy at times too for grooming. You can work on that position little bits at a time over many days, using clicker and treats. Or you can force the issue with a muzzle. Depends how much time you want to put into teaching that posisiton. Once you dedicate yourself to teaching restraint it is so much easier for both you and the dog..so you both know where you stand! 

It is a life skill and he will be all the better for it. I think the trainer sees Grim as needing to learn who is in charge, and its not Grim. You need to believe in yourself. Good luck.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Even with owner handling, many dogs will not allow a stranger to hover over and restrain or stroke them. Some are wired differently and that type of compliance is never going to happen. 
I think the behaviorist wanted to push his buttons to see his thresholds and how far she could push before he'd break. Nothing wrong with it if it was for a reason, but really truly, there was no reason other than Jag knowing what was already obvious.
Brian Harvey would be my next stop, he knows this type of dog and could help with a training program regiment, and I don't think there would be any time or $ wasted when working with him.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Even with owner handling, many dogs will not allow a stranger to hover over and restrain or stroke them. Some are wired differently and that type of compliance is never going to happen.
> I think the behaviorist wanted to push his buttons to see his thresholds and how far she could push before he'd break. Nothing wrong with it if it was for a reason, but really truly, there was no reason other than Jag knowing what was already obvious.
> Brian Harvey would be my next stop, he knows this type of dog and could help with a training program regiment, and I don't think there would be any time or $ wasted when working with him.


This is true, Jane. My previous male wouldn't have had an issue with this. at 14 weeks, Grim let it be known that no stranger was allowed to do this. Long before this 'butt-head' stage. It's just how he is. I will be calling Brian on Monday.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

ponyfarm said:


> All dogs need to learn restraint skills, for their safety and for those humans that must handle them. You should be able to brush his coat, trim his nails, brush his teeth, clean his ears. These are basic puppy skills and build respect for you as a fair and benevolent leader. Laying him on his side is a restraint position, it is used by vets and you may find it handy at times too for grooming. You can work on that position little bits at a time over many days, using clicker and treats. Or you can force the issue with a muzzle. Depends how much time you want to put into teaching that posisiton. Once you dedicate yourself to teaching restraint it is so much easier for both you and the dog..so you both know where you stand!
> 
> It is a life skill and he will be all the better for it. I think the trainer sees Grim as needing to learn who is in charge, and its not Grim. You need to believe in yourself. Good luck.


Just to be honest, *I* can do those things. No muzzle, no aggression from him. He does like to grab the rake, but I put my foot down about it, and he gave up. The only issue he's EVER had at the vet is them trying to put him on his side. Just isn't going to happen. Anything else, though, and he's OK.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jag said:


> After talking to his breeder, we need to go to another trainer. One with more GSD specific experience.





lhczth said:


> Sorry things didn't work out with the trainer. She trained with and works extensively with Brenda Arloff (sp?).


Wait, the first trainer that you didn't like is the one that trains and works with Brenda Aloff? I don't know who your trainer is, but Brenda Aloff is VERY highly regarded, one that many people would jump at the chance to work with, so if it were me, I'd either give it another try, or at least have a conversation about what she was doing and why. Discuss your concerns, get answers. If you still think it's not a good fit for you, fine. 

If you're not familiar with Brenda Aloff, here are her books - read the descriptions and reviews: BrendaAloff.com Homepage

It's hard to believe that she'd train and work with someone using ineffective, outdated, or abusive methods since that's so not her style.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wait, the first trainer that you didn't like is the one that trains and works with Brenda Aloff? I don't know who your trainer is, but Brenda Aloff is VERY highly regarded, one that many people would jump at the chance to work with, so if it were me, I'd either give it another try, or at least have a conversation about what she was doing and why. Discuss your concerns, get answers. If you still think it's not a good fit for you, fine.
> 
> If you're not familiar with Brenda Aloff, here are her books - read the descriptions and reviews: BrendaAloff.com Homepage
> 
> It's hard to believe that she'd train and work with someone using ineffective, outdated, or abusive methods since that's so not her style.


YEa, I thought that too! I would love to train with someone like that. 

I am just wondering if Grim would benefit from in-kennel -training from some wonderful place and then Jag take lessons on how to work with Grim. And then get both enrolled together to continue on the journey!

I hope Jag doesnt feel like we are criticizing..we are all in this together!! None of our dogs are perfect!


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## Thorny (Nov 4, 2012)

Jag,
Please keep us updated as you continue your training. Gunnar (and possibly me) are doing similar things to you and Grim.

Im learning from your stuff and looking forward to resolution for both you guys and us.


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## Kelly&Kip (Aug 5, 2012)

I am not sure where in OH you are located, but if Lansing, MI is not too far, I highly recommend Cheryl Carlson at www.chercarkennels.com. Extensive experience with GSDs and I've seen her do amazing work with a variety of dogs. I'd encourage you to call her and tell her what you are experiencing. She will let you know if traveling to work with her would be worthwhile.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Sorry, I went into a NASTY flare and was laid up for more than 24 hours.  I will have to look up who this other person is, I have no idea. Since I never went through obedience training with anyone before, this is all new. I can't go back to this woman, though. Grim was REALLY upset. I don't know... but telling me I need to get a basket muzzle so that things can be done that will set off aggression in a normally non-aggressive dog sounds WRONG... no matter who she trained with. He's a one person dog. He'll allow others to take his lead (Lisa did, and he was fine) but when you start pushing him, a stranger... it isn't going to fly with him. 

According to his breeder, this isn't abnormal for him... his lines, etc. I worked with him today, with the girls put up. I was MUCH more animated with him than 'normal' and his attention was on me. He was 'with' me. He even dropped treats and left them to follow me. I think this is where we need to work. I haven't been as animated as I should have been with him. Partly, because of my being sick. Partly because with all of his energy, I thought that ramping him up more would be a bad idea, so I tried to work calmly with him. However, that isn't the key. Just because this other guy couldn't get Grim to stay "with him" doesn't mean anything. Grim was constantly looking to me and trying to get back to me. This doesn't mean that *I* can't keep his attention, or that he's not bonded to me. I really wish my brain didn't work so slow and it takes awhile to digest things that happen and realize what is wrong. I need to spend more time just playing with Grim. Letting him get all excited and jumping around and playing with me. The only thing that everyone seems to agree on is he's frustrated and he doesn't know what I want. I can fix both of them. He needs more interaction with me, and more clear direction from me. No trainer can fix that. It's between myself and Grim. 

I saw a video once (a link on here, I think) about leash training and getting the dog to follow the person at the other end. I'm going to try that with him. If I can't use a pinch (because it's correction for something he doesn't understand) then I have to somehow make him understand that pulling the leash isn't right. I can't take him for walks without the prong any other way. He totally screwed up my back in less than five minutes without it. My other shepherds, I just put the prong on as adults and had them heeling with corrections from the prong pretty fast. They were adults, but still. It's not fair to just 'not take him for walks' because I can't get him to not pull. He's got too much energy to do that to him. 

Control Unleashed is not available on Kindle. So I'm going to have to order a copy. I don't think that Grim doesn't want to please me. He does. Sometimes he doesn't know what I want, so he'll start throwing out behaviors to see if he can get it right. He's coming to me more and more to lay calmly by me... and just get pets. There are days the he shows a great amount of respect for me, and days when it's not so much. However, he's not a lost cause. Too many people messing with him, though, is making things worse. To say he's not bonded to me isn't true, either. He's never far from me. If I'm in a room with the door closed, you can bet good money he's laying on the other side of the door. No matter how long. I've made some mistakes with him, but it's not a lost cause. He's still a puppy. We may well go back to trainers after awhile, but not right now. There are many things I can train on my own. Before any heavy duty training, though, he needs to be able to understand what I want. He needs to be able to keep his focus on me even though he may be in a new place with new things. He didn't have an issue with behaving in new places, sitting with me in different environments and being quiet until he suddenly didn't. Now we have to deal with the 'teenage' phase, I think. I was offered to use the empty side of the training facility we were going to in order to work with him in a different environment. I think we're going to do that. 

I appreciate all the input from everyone, I really do. I think, though, instead of running all over to many different trainers we first need to work on getting Grim's head back on straight and me changing how I interact with him. I have been too boring. He's a guy who looks for excitement. He's growing up, and I have to grow with him. He's a different type of GSD from what I've had in the past. However, I don't think shutting him in his kennel nearly all day is the answer. I got him first and foremost as a companion. Everything else is just gravy. He is my best friend. He deserves more than to be in his kennel all the time to get a point across. I can be more exciting to him without locking him up.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I see the mention of using the 'hindbrain' in the description of the first book listed. I'd love to know what that actually means, though. Is a puppy who wants to check out and explore a new building it was just brought into being 'reactive'? To me, that answer would be 'no', but maybe I'm wrong. When I stop listening to all of the phrases and stuff being thrown around and just watch his behavior, I see more 'normal puppy' stuff than 'problem' stuff.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Heya

Maybe have a read of this  It seems relevant to what your trainer was talking about 
http://emainehosting.com/mesard/Articles/Articles_pdf/The%20Be%20Still%20Exercise.pdf

I was curious about the whole hind/front brain thing too - this is interesting 
Where Is Your Dog Coming From Mentally | HappyDogConnections.com

As for the walking with prong - In my opinion you're better off putting a prong on him (especially considering your health issues) and go for a walk rather than not walking him


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

That's VERY helpful, because that's what this trainer was doing with him, in part. The difference was A-she wasn't the handler, B-she said wherever he doesn't want to be petted, to go there and C-when he was still it wasn't over. I don't think she noticed the lip licking, because I did but didn't know that's anything she was even looking for. She did notice it later. I wish that an explanation had been given for this. I also wish she'd have left it for me to do. Grim isn't too big on others messing with him... and if he was really in any 'heightened state' other than "I want to go look at everything and don't stop me" he would have responded differently to me than to someone else. He's never minded me grabbing his collar, but later that day he didn't want me touching his collar. He got over it, though. It's now OK again for me to grab his collar to stop him, turn him another direction, whatever.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I googled that "hind brain" thing too, because I was curious about it. Mooch's first link was more informative that what I found, but it still leaves me with more questions than answers, lol. What I want to know, if the "hind brain" is the reactive, vs the thinking, how does that relate to a puppy? IME, puppies *are* reactive. Isn't that the nature of puppies? It seems counter-productive to me, the opposite of engagement. What am I missing here, lol?


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Puppies can get out of that reactive state - ever seen the '100 things to do with a box' training they recommend when you use markers? Gets them into problem-solving mode while they figure out what will get them a mark and a treat and it seems to be super fun for even 8 wk old pups. That's obviously the mind set you want to see when training. Some handler/pup teams are better at getting there than others.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Sorry to hear all the problems your having with Trainers! Draven and I had a similar experience when one trainer told people to back away and give the shepherd his space. She made it sounds like he's dog agressive... which he totally isn't... before class when we're all in a smaller room there is a little female poodle mix that he adores they play and sniff and there are some males he seems to chill with. there is a Pitbull mix that doesn't like him though whenever Draven even casually looks over tongue lolling out this dog is at the end of his leash... and my trainers blame Draven... frustration >_< so I feel your pain!

I read and re-read the monks of new skete books on shepherds and I found them amazing, all the little things about setting boundries and knowing the little things your dog does to challenge you. I'm probably hyper sensitive about but Draven gets away with nothing he has to work 5-10 minutes just to eat food. He's 7months now. When he's playing he has snipped at me, he has growled at me though I don't think its agression it sounds more like play and his tail is wagging and his butt is up... but I still don't let him get away with it, he has to sit and I take his toy away.

I have to admit though he has been "alpha" rolled alot... (not hourly but probably daily) I never have to hurt him he's pretty easy to roll over and he just flops and waits he knows a "Good Dog" is coming soon as he settles and then we start playing again.

one time he tackled my 6 year old, and nipped at her, and he got rolled then and held down. 

I make it sound like he gets this all the time, but its only for behavior with his mouth and the kids really that get it, the time he nipped at my daughter, I had my daughter put her hands on him to hold him down and she released him.

Draven gets his nails cut since he was a baby laying on his side, I brush him that way etc. Is it a problem?


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

From the reading on the links it sounds like Hind Brain is when the dog is crazy ramped up Ceasar talks about that (not that I agree with his teaching at all but some things I watched like not letting him out of his crate/kennel when he's excited let him calm down etc)

I thought Draven was a handful but Grim seems like more so...


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