# Training Without a Prong



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Opinions? I'm currently trying to learn as much as I can so I can start our future pup out on the right foot. I know I've heard before (which is really great advice) that any correction collar you are going to use in the future, you want to start on your dog BEFORE ever getting to the point of corrections, so the dog doesn't make the connection between the two. The thing of it is, I would really prefer training without a prong if at all possible. I understand this tends to take longer, but I'm ok with that since we're not going to be going after any high titles, just to have fun.

So I was wondering if any of you have trained without a prong and how you've found the process with your dog. Is it something we can work at, then change our minds later if we feel it necessary? I would think it would sort of be the same as conditioning a dog to get used to a muzzle, so long as the dog was introduced to the collar in "normal" settings before actually using it for corrections. Am I going to be looked at like I'm crazy if I don't want to use one?

Thanks!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you don't want to use one, don't. Honestly I don't get to a point where I make a decision "now I'm going to train with a PRONG." It completely depends on the dog, what we're trying to accomplish, and even the day (I might use a prong for something one day and then not use it the next for the same dog, same skill). The prong is simply a tool just like a flat collar, a leash, a clicker, a ball, a treat pouch... I try not to make firm decisions about training before I'm to that point with my dog. I'll use whatever method or tool is appropriate at the time. You will not be looked at crazy if you don't want to use one but you'll probably be asked why you're making the decision ahead of time.

I don't understand the statement "any correction collar you are going to use in the future, you want to start on your dog BEFORE ever getting to the point of corrections, so the dog doesn't make the connection between the two." If I correct my dog I want him to understand the correction as a correction. They aren't dumb, they know where it comes from. If I have to give a dog a firm correction he often looks at me and complies, he doesn't try to scratch the collar off. And likewise if I pick up a prong collar ALL my dogs come running because they want to go out and jog/bike or train! The only connection they've made is that prong collar = going away from home and doing something fun. I don't condition dogs to prongs, either it's an appropriate tool or not. If it shuts the dog down, it's not appropriate and I would not be "conditioning" the dog to accept it (JMHO).


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

who cares? You have to be the one that is happy with YOUR dog and how YOU train right? If you get to where you want to go what difference does it make 

But should you decide want to use one, and you just put it on one day and start correcting, they are certainly going to know what the collar is for. Just because it's on doesn't mean you have to use it and people are going to look at you funny for having it on and not using it, others will think things of you because you do have it on, regardless if a leash has ever been connected to it or not. these people don't matter.

It's the same with crates. I recommend EVERYONE crate train every single dog as soon as they get it. I don't care if you're "never" going to keep your dog in a crate, should you find a reason to be gone, travel, have a dog in a crate at a show, trial, friends house, hotel, vet clinic etc. I like my dogs to have that good foundation first where I can control it for "just in case"

if you make the prong mean nothing, it will help if you ever decide to use it in your training. If you don't do it now, you'll have to do it later, or you run the risk of teaching your dog to be collar wise


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Liesje said:


> And likewise if I pick up a prong collar ALL my dogs come running because they want to go out and jog/bike or train! The only connection they've made is that prong collar = going away from home and doing something fun. I don't condition dogs to prongs, either it's an appropriate tool or not. If it shuts the dog down, it's not appropriate and I would not be "conditioning" the dog to accept it (JMHO).


I basically agree with everything, but this. You have conditioned them, you may not have intended to or thoughtfully went about it, but you have.


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## 3dognite (May 28, 2003)

Liesje said:


> If you don't want to use one, don't. *Honestly I don't get to a point where I make a decision "now I'm going to train with a PRONG." It completely depends on the dog, what we're trying to accomplish, and even the day (I might use a prong for something one day and then not use it the next for the same dog, same skill). The prong is simply a tool just like a flat collar, a leash, a clicker, a ball, a treat pouch... I try not to make firm decisions about training before I'm to that point with my dog. I'll use whatever method or tool is appropriate at the time. You will not be looked at crazy if you don't want to use one but you'll probably be asked why you're making the decision ahead of time.*


*ditto* to this.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

crackem said:


> I basically agree with everything, but this. You have conditioned them, you may not have intended to or thoughtfully went about it, but you have.


But if I put a prong on a dog, gave a correction, and my dog totally freaked out and shut down, I probably wouldn't be using the prong (possibly not owning the dog, but that's another discussion). I guess I interpreted the OP's post as asking how to intentionally condition the dog and my answer is, I don't. I just put the prong on and use it assuming the prong is the right tool at that time. It's always paired with some release or reward and it's not like the dog is cowering and trying to get away from the prong. They see me touch one or hear it jingle and want to go out.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

ahh, i see.

I misinterpreted 

I'm the same, when I use a prong, it goes on and sometimes I use it in a session, sometimes not, sometimes just to play etc. So, like you, it becomes something that is associated with everything.

My corrections are always corrections, verbal, flat, time out, prong etc. They know it's from me and I don't like what they just did. 

When people get into trouble is when they just use a collar to correct. Not that it always results in a cowering dog, but i've seen plenty of people over the years bring their dog out to work on the "trial" field so they bring it out like they're going to trial, the dog is out of control and they go get their ecollar or prong and you can see the change in the dog immediately. It knows what's coming.

Or even more simple, a leash. how many dogs have you seen over the years "out" perfectly, until there is no leash and as soon as the handler clips a leash back on it's perfect 

Those dogs are conditioned too 

or my problem, put a leash on and they want to pull like crazy because the only time I ever had them leashed was for bitework  all conditioned dogs


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

crackem said:


> ahh, i see.
> When people get into trouble is when they just use a collar to correct. Not that it always results in a cowering dog, but i've seen plenty of people over the years bring their dog out to work on the "trial" field so they bring it out like they're going to trial, the dog is out of control and they go get their ecollar or prong and you can see the change in the dog immediately. It knows what's coming.


This is exactly the sort of thing I meant.  I've just been reading a lot about getting ready, lately, and the things I've read has mentioned making sure the dog just associates the prong with walks or games or training or whatever, and not, "I only get corrected while I'm wearing this collar, so I only need to listen while I'm wearing it."

You guys are really helping me go with my gut, thanks! The sport is just seems to go so hand in hand with the prong that I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I have no problems giving a dog a "tap on the shoulder" if it needs to remember it should be listening, but I don't want to start out the gate thinking a prong is an inevitability. I'd much rather just cross that bridge when I come to it.

On a side note, all of this reading is making me SO excited about our future dog! I thought it was going to make the wait go by better, but it's almost making it worse! haha!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Oh the drama about training collars! Tell you what, use a slight prong stim every time the dog does something good and you release/reward, now what....


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Double post


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Did I ever say prongs were evil? I just said I didn't want to assume I was going to need it right out of the gate, I don't get where the "drama" is coming from.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Nah, just pre-empting the drama as it sure will occur. Maybe now it will not  As you don't have a pup yet, I would encourage to learn about using a stim at reward time. Now later when the dog has grown up and if there comes time to correct, the same stim will get him higher in drive and in proper position/action as the dog was programmed that way from the get go! The "stim" would be anything you intend to use in your training program.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You don't need to do anything special to make sure the dog associates the prong with good things. As long as you are using it while doing things the dog enjoys, there's really nothing extra you'd need to do. Being collar wise is something you'd need to watch out for regardless of what tool you use or how you train. I don't see a prong as ever being inevitable. If anyone made you feel that way they probably just train all their dogs the same way and have never tried anything different. The reason the sport goes hand in hand with a prong is because it works and in many cases, it just makes the most sense. It's fair, effective, and safe. You don't need to think you will HAVE to use it or plan it out ahead of time, but likewise I wouldn't decide ahead of time that you'll never use it, just because.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Wolfenstein said:


> Opinions? I'm currently trying to learn as much as I can so I can start our future pup out on the right foot. I know I've heard before (which is really great advice) that any correction collar you are going to use in the future, you want to start on your dog BEFORE ever getting to the point of corrections, so the dog doesn't make the connection between the two. The thing of it is, I would really prefer training without a prong if at all possible. I understand this tends to take longer, but I'm ok with that since we're not going to be going after any high titles, just to have fun.
> 
> So I was wondering if any of you have trained without a prong and how you've found the process with your dog. Is it something we can work at, then change our minds later if we feel it necessary? I would think it would sort of be the same as conditioning a dog to get used to a muzzle, so long as the dog was introduced to the collar in "normal" settings before actually using it for corrections. Am I going to be looked at like I'm crazy if I don't want to use one?
> 
> Thanks!


I'll tell you what will hinder you going far in any sport before you are in it, let alone have the dog in the first place...saying you will or won't do something. Most TD's I know won't waste their time on someone who has never been in the sport/work before, coming in saying they def will or won't do something, and to top it off say "this is just for fun, I don't care about the titles." You can miss out on a lot of knowledgeable advice and experience by taking stands before you even have your dog. I personally think it's kind of rude to take up a TD or club's time if you aren't going to be open minded and be somewhat serious. Unless you are doing a pay to play scenario.

On another note, most people in the sport/work have no idea if/when they'll use a certain tool. It's in the bag, and they might decide in the middle of a training session they need it, and then never use it again, or use it all the time, or only for certain commands. It not only depends on the dog, but the training session, and the day.

Don't limit yourself before you even get the dog. Prong is just a tool, like a leash, collar, ecollar, bait, tug, etc...if I were you I would stop reading about everything, hook up with a club, watch some training sessions, keep your mouth shut and your ears open for quite awhile. You'll do a lot better if you learn from watching and doing, with someone who has titled multiple dogs, and titled high (there are lots of crappy trainers out there, in all venues).


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Wolfenstein said:


> Did I ever say prongs were evil? I just said I didn't want to assume I was going to need it right out of the gate, I don't get where the "drama" is coming from.


Don't assume ANYTHING...right now it seems like you are trying to assume you WON'T use it. Don't assume a thing. Assume the dog will have a tail, need to be fed, and hook up with someone in whatever venue you want to train in. Go day by day with someone who knows what they are doing.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

DaniFani said:


> Don't assume ANYTHING...right now it seems like you are trying to assume you WON'T use it.


Definitely not the case.  Again, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't something I needed to establish from puppyhood. I had just read in one book and on a website talking about starting a puppy that it was a good idea to get the dog used to wearing the prong early on, and I just wanted to make sure it was the sort of thing I didn't necessarily need to do right off the bat. Here's a great example of how I'm approaching the situation.... I've never trained a SchH dog, right? It's like when I had my kid... I never made any decisions either way about drugs until I was actually having him. But I sure as heck pushed for the drugs once I knew what it was like!! :rofl: So I want to wait and see how it is training first, THEN make the decisions when I come to it. Just wanted to make sure I was doing OK by that since I'd read two separate places to start off with the prong.

Also, just for the record, I already HAVE hooked up with a club I really like, that also doesn't put a huge emphasis on titling (that is "pay to play" as you put it.) I actually e-mailed them about a few different things before I posted here, but I haven't gotten a reply yet. I just thought it'd be a better idea to cast a wide net! And I don't want to make it sound like I'm not going to be invested in training, just that I wasn't going to be the type that felt the need to gain titles as quick as I can. I honestly hope we CAN get some titles out of training! But it's not my top priority, I'd rather be able to have an activity I can use to bond with my dog, that is doing what the dog was bred for. I'm still planning on training regularly, I'm not going to just show up every once in awhile hoping someone is going to waste time on me. 

Also...


> Assume the dog will have a tail, need to be fed, and hook up with someone in whatever venue you want to train in.


This absolutely killed me, thanks!!  haha!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

There is no one best way to train a dog. Do what works for you and your dog and make adjustments as needed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DaniFani said:


> I'll tell you what will hinder you going far in any sport before you are in it, let alone have the dog in the first place...saying you will or won't do something. Most TD's I know won't waste their time on someone who has never been in the sport/work before, coming in saying they def will or won't do something, and to top it off say "this is just for fun, I don't care about the titles." You can miss out on a lot of knowledgeable advice and experience by taking stands before you even have your dog. I personally think it's kind of rude to take up a TD or club's time if you aren't going to be open minded and be somewhat serious. Unless you are doing a pay to play scenario.


This x1000

If you are committed to the sport, then accept that there will be people in the club who have done it for a long time and have been very successful with their dogs, and there are very good reasons why they suggest certain training methods or tools. You may have an aversion to it now but will probably be pleasantly surprised. It doesn't mean you have to do everything they say without question, but it's better to try to understand what they are doing and why than come at it from the point of view that you already don't want to do it that way. Don't underestimate yourself or your dog either.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Wolfenstein said:


> I have no problems giving a dog a "tap on the shoulder" if it needs to remember it should be listening, but I don't want to start out the gate thinking a prong is an inevitability. I'd much rather just cross that bridge when I come to it.


 
In my opinion, there is no reason to assume you will need a prong right out of the gate...HOWEVER.... This very much depends on the dog, your relationship with the dog and more importantly THE DOG.... A "tap on the shoulder" will not work with most high drive, strong dogs doing protection work. And at that point I would remind you that you are training a dog to bite and you have a responsibility to have the dog under control. A good helper will be teaching the dog to bite full and hard and it is your resonsibility to be able to control the dog and teach him when it is ok to bite and more importantly to not bite. A prong/E-collar or any corrective collar is a tool and they are options to train your dog and wether or not you will need them is something you will know by the time the dog is 6-9 months.....I had one person in my club that refused to use a corrective collar on her dog, the dog was completely out of control, so I refused to teach the dog to bite. (too bad it was a really good dog too)


Frank


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Ok, seems like I need to clear a couple things up again!



Liesje said:


> This x1000
> 
> If you are committed to the sport, then accept that there will be people in the club who have done it for a long time and have been very successful with their dogs, and *there are very good reasons why they suggest certain training methods or tools.* You may have an aversion to it now but will probably be pleasantly surprised. It doesn't mean you have to do everything they say without question, but it's better to try to understand what they are doing and why than come at it from the point of view that you already don't want to do it that way. Don't underestimate yourself or your dog either.


Just want to mention in case it wasn't clear, none of the trainers I've been talking to are the ones who said to put a prong on the puppy right away. I'm TOTALLY not getting advice from someone, crossing my arms in a huff, and going elsewhere to have my point of view justified! haha All this thread was supposed to be was SERIOUSLY just clearing up something I was confused about. You've all done a really great job clearing things up for me, and I'm grateful for that! YOU guys are the experts, that's why I'm coming here for advice! 

.


schh3fh2 said:


> In my opinion, there is no reason to assume you will need a prong right out of the gate...HOWEVER.... This very much depends on the dog, your relationship with the dog and more importantly THE DOG.... A "tap on the shoulder" will not work with most high drive, strong dogs doing protection work.
> Frank


Now, I TOTALLY know I didn't make this one clear. What I meant by "tap on the shoulder" is whatever happens to be able to break the dog's concentration momentarily to get the focus back on the task at hand. Some dogs it's a verbal command, some dogs it's a light tug on a flat collar, other dogs it's a prong! I REALLY understand that dogs have varying degrees of what they can handle, and what you need to get their attention. What would completely wreck one dog would go practically unnoticed in another.


*AGAIN, since this seems to be getting missed! I am NOT saying there is anything wrong with prongs, and I'm not trying to ignore someone's advice! I was just wondering if it was something necessary to get the dog accustomed to from the very start!*


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never used a prong for training, corrections,
walking, etc. and my dogs are well trained.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Do you do focused heeling? Are your dogs high drive or aggressive? Do you do bite work? Have you had to fix a sticky out or dirty biter?

David Winners


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wolfenstein said:


> *AGAIN, since this seems to be getting missed! I am NOT saying there is anything wrong with prongs, and I'm not trying to ignore someone's advice! I was just wondering if it was something necessary to get the dog accustomed to from the very start!*


We usually put a prong on the dog without a line attached for a few sessions before we hook up a line. The dog does get use to the feel of it(usually around 6 months of age, depending on the dog) Some dogs don't care what is on them, I've really never seen a dog that is afraid of a prong collar, ecollar or shows avoidance because they are wearing one. The collar usually isn't the problem, but how it is used. * Hope that answers your question.*


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I tend to put the collars on as part of their training equipment. I have never "conditioned" a dog to a collar by having them wear it for a few days so they are used to it being there. I do introduce the e-collar to the dogs I will use it on so they understand how it works and how to shut off the stim, but they don't wear it for days before I start their intro.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A teammate has raised seeing eye dogs for about 15 years before she came to our team about 9 years ago. She is very well versed in motivational only methods. Her last dog was strictly trained that way and she helps teammates obedience train their dogs and troubleshoot issues...certainly as much as you can train motivationally is a good thing. We have need for obedient dogs but not precision obedience. It is mainly solid obedience control, offlead, under distraction.

I saw her last weekend with her new dog, an 8 month old. Despite the fact that she never saw the need for a prong with other dogs she adapted her training because this dog really needed one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not sure the point of this as no squirrel was involved: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qAb3xgt-KOQ


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> We usually put a prong on the dog without a line attached for a few sessions before we hook up a line. The dog does get use to the feel of it(usually around 6 months of age, depending on the dog) Some dogs don't care what is on them, I've really never seen a dog that is afraid of a prong collar, ecollar or shows avoidance because they are wearing one. The collar usually isn't the problem, but how it is used. * Hope that answers your question.*


YES!!! This is exactly what I was talking about, thank you so much. :wub: Not really concerned about avoidance or anything because a dog that sensitive wouldn't need a prong, anyway, but just with the dog becoming collar wise. 

That video is HILARIOUS by the way!! Haha!


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## lafalce (Jan 16, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> Not sure the point of this as no squirrel was involved:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qAb3xgt-KOQ


I totally agree.

I guess it does prove that the kid can stand winter weather without a shirt on!!!!!:crazy:


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