# Question about coat/color



## Jaesthetic (Apr 7, 2016)

Is mixed coloring possible? This puppy's dam is sable and her sire is black and red. The puppy looks mostly like a black and red to me but I thought that sable was a dominant allele so shouldn't all the puppies have a sable phenotype? Her face is speckled so does that make her technically "sable" or just a black and red with a speckled face? Is there ever co-dominance or incomplete dominance in the color genes for German Shepherds?
Additionally, does anyone have any guesses as to how long/thick her coat will get? Both her parents have short coats (stock?) and as far as I could tell, no where in her parents' pedigrees did I see any long coats. She is almost 6 months old.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

She looks black and tan. The Dam can carry a sable gene, and a black and tan gene. She of course would express the sable as it is dominant over the b&t, but she can only pass one color gene on to her offspring, so this puppy got a b&t from mom, and one from dad. 

Quite often (but not always), if a puppy is a sable from one sable parent, and one b&t parent, they express the sable color, and may express the saddle pattern from from the b&t parent, so you get a patterned sable. 

The motling you see on this pup's face is probably just the black color fading - normal as b&t pups are born almost completely black, and the black recedes gradually to the classic saddle pattern.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

GSD sable aka "wolf sable" is actually a recessive gene, but the confusion comes because ALL GSD colors are recessive, but wolf sable is the most dominant out of those recessive genes. No other GSD color will mask it, it is however possible to have a patterned sable, which is when the dog is sable but carries for black/tan and this will show through in the pattern. However patterned sable pups still look like typical sables going through the phase where they are almost solid tan. 


If your pup was born black/tan then she is definitely black and tan. Which I agree with Castlemaid that she looks black and tan. Sables are not the only color that have that more intricate appearance. Castlemaid is also correct that the black will fade away which can give that appearance. 
Dog Coat Colour Genetics
Frankenhaus German Shepherds - Color Genetics

And your pup is definitely a long coat, the ear hair is a major giveaway.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Cschmidt88 said:


> GSD sable aka "wolf sable" is actually a recessive gene, but the confusion comes because ALL GSD colors are recessive, but wolf sable is the most dominant out of those recessive genes. No other GSD color will mask it, it is however possible to have a patterned sable, which is when the dog is sable but carries for black/tan and this will show through in the pattern. However patterned sable pups still look like typical sables going through the phase where they are almost solid tan.
> 
> 
> If your pup was born black/tan then she is definitely black and tan. Which I agree with Castlemaid that she looks black and tan. Sables are not the only color that have that more intricate appearance. Castlemaid is also correct that the black will fade away which can give that appearance.
> ...


If a puppy is a pattern sable, then would it be born nearly black just like a black and tan? If so, would the black markings recede in the same manner as a black and tan? If both of those questions are true, then if two puppies were born, one a dark sable and one a patterned sable, would they not appear nearly the same? If those questions are true, the dark sable pup would lighten and then darken, what about the patterned sable? Is there an age where one can determine that a puppy is a pattern sable or a dark sable?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Pattern sable would be born all sable. Then more tan would start to appear as the patterning recedes to the saddle area.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

What Castlemaid said! A patterned sable puppy looks like a normal sable puppy. The pattern comes in as they lose their puppy coat and mature.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

KZoppa's post on here is a good example of a patterned sable as a puppy versus as an adult.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/187030-black-tan-patterned-sable.html


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Cschmidt88 said:


> KZoppa's post on here is a good example of a patterned sable as a puppy versus as an adult.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/187030-black-tan-patterned-sable.html


I understand the adult concept. I was just curious whether a breeder or somebody buying a puppy would be able to determine a dark sable from a patterned sable @ 8 weeks of age.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

From my understanding you cannot tell the difference and they look like a typical sable, not necessarily dark either. But I've never owned one to confirm that. It seems nobody has really made an article on them either.


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## Jaesthetic (Apr 7, 2016)

@Castlemaid: Thanks for explaining about the sable patterned; that's really interesting and I hadn't heard of them before. 
Does mottling stay like that or continue to recede more into the tan color? Your explanation of the allele inheritance makes perfect sense, for some reason I assumed that mom would have been sable/sable but you're right, given the dam's parentage it would make much more sense that she is sable/black&tan and would have passed on the black&tan gene.
@Cschmidt88: is there a dominant allele to all of the recessive ones that appears in other breeds just not shepherds? Also, is it possible for the sable pattern to happen but with bi-colors or solids? 
Oh, yeah I know she is long haired, I guess I was just wondering if there are varying degrees of thickness/longness of the fur and if so, whether you'd be able to tell from this young.
She isn't actually my puppy, I've been talking to the breeder and may possibly be getting her, but nothing is final right now. This is the first/only picture I have seen of her so I am not really sure what she looked like as a puppy. 
Thanks for the links, I will definitely be reading the first one. I've read the Frankenhaus page before and found it absolutely fascinating. I'm a molecular and cellular biology major so I love exploring about how the genes interact with each other to form different color/pattern combinations. 

Is there a different allele for black & tan and black & red or is that just a variation in expression of pigmentation?


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Jaesthetic said:


> @*Castlemaid*: Thanks for explaining about the sable patterned; that's really interesting and I hadn't heard of them before.
> Does mottling stay like that or continue to recede more into the tan color? Your explanation of the allele inheritance makes perfect sense, for some reason I assumed that mom would have been sable/sable but you're right, given the dam's parentage it would make much more sense that she is sable/black&tan and would have passed on the black&tan gene.
> 
> @*Cschmidt88*: is there a dominant allele to all of the recessive ones that appears in other breeds just not shepherds? Also, is it possible for the sable pattern to happen but with bi-colors or solids?
> ...


On the "a" Agouti locus (which all GSD coat colors are on) there is one dominant color and that is true sable aka clear/tipped/shaded sable. This is the color you see on Malinois, Collies/Shelties, etc(Ay).

GSD sable is wild type agouti sable(aw), then black/tan(as), and bicolor is "tan points"(at), then you have the recessive black(a). (It's referred to as recessive black because the gene responsible for black in almost all other breeds is a different gene which is dominant). 

As for "aw" GSD sable interacting with bicolor or solid black, I'm not 100% but I do believe it interacts with bicolor. My friend has a sable male out of a bicolor father and sable dam, he has notable tan points despite his sable.He is most likely "aw at" @*mycobraracr* 's wife's dog. (Mind if I share a better picture of his markings?  )
Ivisaruk River vom Lytle

The recessive black gene interacting with the sable isn't really understood yet. Some suspected that's what creates black sables, however I know many sables who carry for black but are not black sables at all. My bitch for example is "aw a", and my male's sire is also "aw a"










And the sire to my male, Bruno vom Midlicher Land who is also "aw a"


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Cschmidt88 said:


> As for "aw" GSD sable interacting with bicolor or solid black, I'm not 100% but I do believe it interacts with bicolor. My friend has a sable male out of a bicolor father and sable dam, he has notable tan points despite his sable.He is most likely "aw at" @*mycobraracr* 's wife's dog. (Mind if I share a better picture of his markings?  )
> Ivisaruk River vom Lytle


Nope. He's the male laying down. He is a sable.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

The breeders told me I got a black and red german shepard; I came here and everyone told me I got a sable puppy. Likely will be patterned sable?


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