# Growling while on walks



## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Duke is a 5 year old male GSD who we adopted about 6 weeks ago. Tonight on his walk we had 2 incidents:

1. A little girl and her dad were jogging toward us. They moved into the street. While they were still several feet away, I stopped walking and Duke sat next to me curiously watching them. The little girl asked if she could pet him. I said, "Yeah, he's nice." Dumb move! The little girl approached him with her hands above his head to pet him and he growled pretty ugly at her. I immediately pulled him back and apologized to her and her dad. Talk about putting my foot in my mouth. 

2. As we continued to walk I thought to myself, "Maybe I should have told the little girl to let Duke sniff her first and then she could pet him. So, a few minutes later we came along a group of kids. An older girl (still a little kid) got my attention and asked if she could pet Duke. I was a little hesitant but said, "Well, let him sniff you first." She slowly approached him and before she even got within 3 feet of him he immediately growled an ugly growl and barked at her.  

The only other time this has happened was in PetSmart when a kid walked up and sort of crowded Duke and started to pet him. Duke growled at him. He did the same thing to one of the groomers when she tried to put their leash on him to take him back. All of these times either my husband or I had Duke on his leash. 

I'm confused because other times Duke has let little kids approach him and pet him. He's encountered other dogs on his walks and not been aggressive. I am happy to know that if a stranger approaches us on his walks, he will protect us. But I feel as though kids should be able to pet him with our permission. ?

Is he being protective? Is he just nervous? Lack of socialization? We have not been good about taking him out with us for errands very often. And we don't have him in a class yet. Is it likely this will resolve just with the socialization of obedience class?

Thanks.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

HobNob said:


> Is he being protective?


NO.



> Is he just nervous? Lack of socialization?


Maybe.



> Is it likely this will resolve just with the socialization of obedience class?


It will certainly help. You may need some one on one time with a trainer so they can observe the behavior. 

You've only had him 6 weeks and he is just settling in. I always tell people that adopt my fosters that you won't see their true personality until at least a month or two in. They are still feeling things out and getting to know you until then and then they sometimes start to test the limits.

Do you do NILIF with him? Nothing in Life is Free If not, I highly recommend you start along with your obedience classes.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

growling is his way of letting it be known he is not comfortable with the situation.........

i would not let anyone approach him until you have a chance to get some help addressing his issue with this...................by repeating these encounters without any game plan will make things worse..........

it could be lack of socialization skills, and training and slow progression with this should help.............counter conditioning exercises, etc......

i agree that private training should be first on the agenda to give you and him the skills you need.............then if you decide to take classes you will be more confident on how to handle things........


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## xenos56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Being bounced from home to home or just being in a new home (this is especially true of GSDs over the age of two), these things can happen. Your dog isn't aggressive, but was most likely scared. He felt cornered and unsure. A solid temperament would not have reacted like that to however, but again it depends on what he's been through.

Do you know his full history? The rescue may not know if he is good with children too.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

The only history we know of Duke is that he was in a home with a male who was a rancher. His owner died, and the people who purchased the house and land turned Duke over to a rescue (perhaps just the humane society) because he was herding their cattle causing them to lose weight. Haha! Anyway, he was brought to a foster home in Austin German Shepherd Rescue. They had him for 6 weeks...minus one week during which an elderly lady adopted him and quickly realized he was not the dog for her. After 6 weeks in the foster home, we adopted him. This is all we know of his history. He was reported to be good with children and other animals. 

We did pretty good with NILIF there for a few weeks...made him come to us and sit/lay/shake/whatever before being petted. Made him perform for treats. Made him sit and wait before going out/in doors. The only way in which I feel we have let up is now we often just walk up to him and pet him and give him belly rubs and dote on him without making him "earn" it. My husband particularly does this. And Duke love my husband! Here lately Duke seems to be testing a lot of boundaries...barking or snipping at us when we use our body to keep him away from kitchen counters, not staying on his "spot" for more than a minute or two while we cook/eat in the kitchen, being grumpier about giving up his toys after he had made improvements in this area. I told my husband perhaps this is because we got away from making him earn our praise. Any thoughts? Does NILIF mean that when Duke is laying on his bed we shouldn't just walk up and love on him freely? 

I know I got away from my original question about the growling. To follow up on someone's response...for now should we walk him later (after dark) when there are fewer people out? Or would this be a step in the opposite direction since it would expose him to fewer people?

Thanks!


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## xenos56 (Jan 30, 2011)

HobNob said:


> The only history we know of Duke is that he was in a home with a male who was a rancher. His owner died, and the people who purchased the house and land turned Duke over to a rescue (perhaps just the humane society) because he was herding their cattle causing them to lose weight. Haha! Anyway, he was brought to a foster home in Austin German Shepherd Rescue. They had him for 6 weeks...minus one week during which an elderly lady adopted him and quickly realized he was not the dog for her. After 6 weeks in the foster home, we adopted him. This is all we know of his history. He was reported to be good with children and other animals.
> 
> We did pretty good with NILIF there for a few weeks...made him come to us and sit/lay/shake/whatever before being petted. Made him perform for treats. Made him sit and wait before going out/in doors. The only way in which I feel we have let up is now we often just walk up to him and pet him and give him belly rubs and dote on him without making him "earn" it. My husband particularly does this. And Duke love my husband! Here lately Duke seems to be testing a lot of boundaries...barking or snipping at us when we use our body to keep him away from kitchen counters, not staying on his "spot" for more than a minute or two while we cook/eat in the kitchen, being grumpier about giving up his toys after he had made improvements in this area. I told my husband perhaps this is because we got away from making him earn our praise. Any thoughts? Does NILIF mean that when Duke is laying on his bed we shouldn't just walk up and love on him freely?
> 
> ...


It sounds like he hasn't been socialized enough, judging by his history. I wouldn't trust him yet around children/other animals. Poor guy has been bounced around a lot 

As for NILF, it's fine to approach him to give him love, he shouldn't approach you without you call him over first. So, if he is laying on his bed and you want to go over, that's great 

Unfortunately, we have to walk ours late at night and very early in the morning because of his behavior issues. He gets to playing freely for about an hour at our local fenced park - but no one can be there. In your case, I would suggest doing the same for now and gradually change the time. He is still stressed and needs to be slowly desensitized to people and other dogs. Being on a farm doesn't lend a hand to proper socialization in most cases. Not many people wandering through, not much traffic and due to the high demands of farming itself - not much time to take a dog to shops to meet and greet other folks. Work with him as you have - you're doing such a wonderful job. He will just need some time.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

HobNob said:


> Does NILIF mean that when Duke is laying on his bed we shouldn't just walk up and love on him freely?


IMO, you can walk up to him and love on him freely but he cannot demand attention (or food or toys) from you. You should still be making him do something in order to eat or get treats or toys. I would not let him have free access to toys yet. He needs to understand that you (fairly) control the things he wants.



> Here lately Duke seems to be testing a lot of boundaries...barking or snipping at us when we use our body to keep him away from kitchen counters, not staying on his "spot" for more than a minute or two while we cook/eat in the kitchen, being grumpier about giving up his toys after he had made improvements in this area.


The first and last thing you mentioned are a problem. He should not be barking or snipping at you or being grumpy about giving up his toys (are you trading his toys for a yummy treat?)

You need to get the growling situation (kids, snipping at you, the groomer) under control sooner rather than later and I think the best way would be to enlist the help of a professional behaviorist who can be hands on with Duke. Any internet advice (no matter how well meaning) is just speculation and I don't think you should be using trial and error training methods here.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

This is a good read:

AGGRESSION: A Case History with Harry T

Flying Dog Press - Suzanne Clothier - AGGRESSION: A Case History with Harry T



> The little girl approached him with her hands above his head to pet him and he growled pretty ugly at her. I immediately pulled him back and apologized to her and her dad. Talk about putting my foot in my mouth.
> 
> 2. As we continued to walk I thought to myself, "Maybe I should have told the little girl to let Duke sniff her first and then she could pet him. So, a few minutes later we came along a group of kids. An older girl (still a little kid) got my attention and asked if she could pet Duke. I was a little hesitant but said, "Well, let him sniff you first." She slowly approached him and before she even got within 3 feet of him he immediately growled an ugly growl and barked at her.


This sounds just like Harry T. The first girl approached, the dog growled (for whatever reason) and you immediately pulled him back and sent nervous/panic/anger/fear signals right down the leash to the dog.

So, when the second child approaches the dog, now thinking that approaching kids are BAD because of your reaction, tried to scare the kid off even more.

I use a command to tell my dog that I am ALLOWING the person (adult or child) to approach him and pet him. I say "Mauser - Say Hi!". It basically means he is to allow the person to approach him and consent to their attention. Unless they have a treat or ball he really could care less about people. 

I would work with a trainer that specializes in dogs with fear/aggression issues. I would also make sure to limit any close interaction with kids at this point.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks for the helpful advice. We will look into private training sessions. They seem to be rather pricey, but maybe we can find a good deal.

Now this has me worried about bringing people into our home. We have some friends we were planning to invite over soon (next couple of weeks or so) who have never met Duke. In fact, in the 6 weeks he has been in our home we have not had guests. I will say that when we went to the foster home to meet Duke, he barked when we rang the doorbell, but when his foster dad let us in the house he was excited to meet us. He sniffed us, let us pet him, and even layed down for a belly rub. His fosters said he is always excited to meet new people. Do you all think perhaps he will be more relaxed about greeting strangers when he is in familiar territory (our home) and we invite them in? He certainly was relaxed when we came into his foster home.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If you are worried about your dog, maybe it would be better to have him meet them outside the house and all come in together. it does seem to help with some dogs who have problems with strangers in the home.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> This is a good read:
> 
> AGGRESSION: A Case History with Harry T
> 
> ...


LoL! I'm sitting there reading that story going, "What?! Duke doesn't do any of that kind of stuff! He's not THAT bad!" And then the end gave me a good chuckle.

In my defense, I will say I don't yell at Duke or freak out like the story describes. When I said I immediately pulled him back...I use a prong collar when I walk him and I loop the leash around my hand about 1-2 feet from his neck that way he doesn't have the entire lead. This makes it easier to give a tug on the prong collar if he needs to be redirected. Anyway, when he growled at the first girl I gave a tug on the prong collar and said "Hey" and maybe "No" but actually didn't raise my voice. But I don't doubt he could sense my anxiety about the situation. Perhaps that did bring on the 2nd incident. ?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

HobNob said:


> ...I use a prong collar when I walk him and I loop the leash around my hand about 1-2 feet from his neck that way he doesn't have the entire lead. This makes it easier to give a tug on the prong collar if he needs to be redirected. Anyway, when he growled at the first girl I gave a tug on the prong collar and said "Hey" and maybe "No" but actually didn't raise my voice. But I don't doubt he could sense my anxiety about the situation. Perhaps that did bring on the 2nd incident. ?


So is the leash tight when you walk? If so, then you are sending the message to be on edge to the dog. The leash should be loose and relaxed. Also, you could really injure your hand if he ever really lunged hard. Sometimes less is more... a firm grip but not wrapped.

Also, did you know that the prong can ramp up aggression? I had a foster that was very dog reactive to the point that we almost didn't get him out of the shelter because none of our resident dogs would tolerate him (except my Raven but it took a correction from her to make him back off). 

What I found when working out his reactivity was that when I corrected him for getting tense or growling, I actually caused him to explode and go off on the dog. If I let him tense up or growl and then happily called his name and said focus (my word for "watch me") or calmly turned around and walked away, 99% of the time he never went off. Also, the LAT (Look at That) game worked wonders for us. I would sit outside of our training class but a good 10 feet away and tell him to look at the dogs and then get him to look at me and would treat him for not barking. It didn't take long before he was quickly glancing back and forth waiting for his treat.

Just some thoughts until you find a trainer that will work for you.


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## HobNob (Jan 10, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> So is the leash tight when you walk? If so, then you are sending the message to be on edge to the dog.


No. There is always slack in the leash unless he tries to walk ahead of us or faster than us. If he does that or veers off we tug on the leash and he corrects.


gsdraven said:


> Also, did you know that the prong can ramp up aggression? I had a foster that was very dog reactive to the point that we almost didn't get him out of the shelter because none of our resident dogs would tolerate him (except my Raven but it took a correction from her to make him back off).


I have read about prong collars and choke collars promoting aggression in some dogs. Duke seems to respond to the prong collar really well. In the house it works GREAT. He won't even tug on it. As soon as he feels it pull at all he stops. On the leash inside the house he sticks right by our side. Outside on the leash he isn't AS good, but I still feel he does a pretty good job. He responds well when we use the prong collar to direct him, similar as you would a horse with reins -- if he strays to the right sniffing something, I tug to the left to get him back on course. If he strays to the left and starts to get in front of me, I tug to the right to get him back on course. If he tries to get ahead of me or go faster than I want to go, I tug back to get him to slow down. Generally he corrects with these "tugs." Occasionally there are times when he is really excited and our walks are filled with him trying to go a little faster than I'd like. This isn't common though. Never do we look like the stereotypical dog & owner where the DOG is walking the OWNER. Sorry, I went into a lot of detail there...but I hope we are using the leash and collar correctly.


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## London's Mom (Aug 19, 2009)

You may want to seek out a good obedience class which has children involved in the training. London was fearful of small kids until I began to socailize him with kids in our OC. My trainer strongly encouraged owners to birng their kids to class. What a big help that was.

My trainer NEVER let the kids approach London at first. The first step was to have London approach the kid and let the kid give London a treat. That was all for the first meeting. No petting, no touching. Eventually, London would be thrilled to see the kids because they always gave him a nice treat. Now he likes meeting kids. 

But I am ALWAYS reading London's body language whenever we meet a stranger on the street. I want to be sure he is feeling at ease. If I sense any fear, I do not let anyone approach him. When they ask to pet him, I simply say " not this time, but maybe the next time we meet."

My body language is key, also. I relax when nice strangers approach and I always greet them in my friendliest voice. When London hears that his "mom" is at ease, it helps him to relax as well.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

If you are unsure how he will react to guests, I would crate him while you have company to help keep him calm but not having to be fearful or worry.


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