# 15 yo Senior Ralph/Chance



## Mrs.K

First Night home, grooming him and cleaning him up




































He's suffering from degenerative myelopathy. He couldn't get back up, not even into a sit, so I had to drive by a friend and we put a towel underneath him and lifted him out of the tub. 










Second Day - he went into the garden but he fell down the steps, even though I helped him. Walking really takes it's toll on him. When it started raining it was hard to lift him up and keeping the door open the same time, so he doesn't go into the backyard anymore but rather out the front door, around the garden and into the frontyard.

After he was back into the sunroom, he was completely exhausted and had to rest for the rest of the day.



























Third day - Today

he's fully groomed. He did walk around a little but I have to watch every step he's doing so I can catch him if he falls. 























The vet said to give him a couple of more days and then based on his condition to either put him to sleep or to go from there and give him a little more time. 

If he goes to the bridge, he won't go unloved.


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## Jax08

Have you thought about a wheel chair? That is a perfectly viable option for him at this stage.


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## holland

What a sweet dog


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

Awwww bless looks like this beauty has seen better days... Bet he loves you for making him feel more comfortable atleast....!


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## Mrs.K

> Have you thought about a wheel chair? That is a perfectly viable option for him at this stage.



Yeah, but not right now. If I have to put him down in two days because he doesn't make any improvements than that is money that could have went to Judge. So I have to stay rational of what is worth spending and what isn't. 

I make his life as easy as possible for as long as I have him but I have to wait at least another two days before I make a decision. 

For now, he's spoiled rotten.


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## Mrs.K

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> Awwww bless looks like this beauty has seen better days... Bet he loves you for making him feel more comfortable atleast....!


He is definitely more comfortable now that all the matted coat is off him. He really enjoyed the bath. The smell was horrid. I've never even smelled anything like that before.


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## BestK9GSD

Mrs.K said:


> First Night home, grooming him and cleaning him up
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> *If he goes to the bridge, he won't go unloved*.


OMG'sh - sweetest thing you could ever do for him!! He looks grateful to be under your care! 

:hug: to you and this sweet boy!


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## Jax08

What kind of improvement would you expect in two days with DM? There are people who will donate wheel chairs, or very inexpensive ones on craigslist.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, but not right now. If I have to put him down in two days because he doesn't make any improvements than that is money that could have went to Judge. So I have to stay rational of what is worth spending and what isn't.
> 
> I make his life as easy as possible for as long as I have him but I have to wait at least another two days before I make a decision.
> 
> For now, he's spoiled rotten.


Awwww well done Mrs.K.... Like you say if it has to come to pts, atleast he would have recieved you love for a few days, give him a nice tickle behind the ears and a lil kiss from me and Nero... See he has two more friends already... bless.


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## Lilie

You have a great deal of courage Mrs. K. I applaud you for your efforts!


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> What kind of improvement would you expect in two days with DM? There are people who will donate wheel chairs, or very inexpensive ones on craigslist.


He's not eating. In the last three days he maybe ate a handful of food. He refused chicken soup, chicken breast, plain yoghurt, rice. 

First day he ate a little bit of kibble, he ate a little bit of canned food but other than that, he refused anything and everything. So for now we are trying to figure out if it is the stress or if he's ready to go to the bridge. 

After everything he's went through he needs to rest more than anything else. If he starts to eat and show overall improvement and a will to live, I will definitely get him a wheelchair but if he doesn't and we have to put him to sleep that wheelchair could go to somebody else.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Jax08 said:


> What kind of improvement would you expect in two days with DM? There are people who will donate wheel chairs, or very inexpensive ones on craigslist.


Also when you read about DM you see it is commonly misdiagnosed - meaning he could have had a spinal stroke (FCE), disc issues, been inactive for a long period, etc, and other things. 

There is no way you could see improvement in two days. This is not how rescuing a dog works. 

Perhaps those people who gave you money already would help out with a wheelchair? Of course, they should send it directly to Eddie's or whoever or your vet office.

What was his bloodwork like? How was the DM diagnosed?

Dogs who come in from a traumatic experience like a shelter may take time to develop an appetite. You give them small amounts of what they will eat, several times a day.


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## Jax08

Is this him?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...56931041.71146.152876678058553&type=1&theater


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## Silvermoon

Thanks for loving him!! Scratch him under the chin for me.....


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## Mrs.K

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Also when you read about DM you see it is commonly misdiagnosed - meaning he could have had a spinal stroke (FCE), disc issues, been inactive for a long period, etc, and other things.
> 
> There is no way you could see improvement in two days. This is not how rescuing a dog works.
> 
> Perhaps those people who gave you money already would help out with a wheelchair? Of course, they should send it directly to Eddie's or whoever or your vet office.


First off: I have not received any money at all. 

Secondly: he is in a severe condition and 15 years old. 

He can't hold urine, he's falling every couple of steps. He can't even get up without help, he refuses to eat, he's can't hear and sometimes I am not so sure if he isn't going blind either because his eyes are clouded. 

That dog would have been put down if I hadn't stepped up to take him and seeing in what kind of condition he's in and knowing his age, at one point it's better to let them go. 

If I have to let him go, he'll go cleaned, loved and spoiled rotten for the last week he's had. 

And if there is one thing I refuse to do is to pump up a dog with so much medication just for the sake of keeping him alive. That would make me as bad as his owners that dumped him at the shelter. 

You've got to stay realistic. Especially in a case like him.


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## Tbarrios333

I think you should at least give him a few weeks to let him adjust.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Is this him?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...56931041.71146.152876678058553&type=1&theater


Yes, that is him. But I have not received any money, I don't know where that went. 

Just for the record.


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## Jax08

Wow...what a different eval from the shelters. It said he walked around the block a couple of times with no problem.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well it is certainly a completely different report than the shelter report and vet report or am I reading that wrong?


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## Mrs.K

Tbarrios333 said:


> I think you should at least give him a few weeks to let him adjust.



I make my decision based on his condition. I will not let himself starve to death. He's had longer than the shelter would have given him. He'd be dead by now!

Jesus Christ people... REALLY?


I do everything I can to keep that guy up and running but I stay realistic.


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## LaRen616

:thinking: What's going on here?


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## Mrs.K

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Well it is certainly a completely different report than the shelter report and vet report or am I reading that wrong?


you have got to be kidding me.... you know what. Forget about it. I will not be accused as a liar on this forum. 

I was told that he is a little stiff. When I picked him up he couldn't even get up and fell out of the transporter. The report says mild ataxia vs DM. 

He can barely walk, is falling almost every step. Have you seen him in person? NO probably not, so don't say something you don't know anything about and do NOT accuse me of lying!


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## Jax's Mom

You're right, you have to be realistic.
Unless someone is offering to take him off your hands to give him better care than you are giving, it's not really helpful.

...and what's up with this disclaimer on his Facebook page:


> DO NOT call and say you are adopting unless you are going to go down there and get the dog. It is a waste of the staff's time to explain the adoption procedure over the phone, for someone to purposely not show up? They need every free second of their time to process Lost and Found checks and care for the animals. Not to mention people will think the dogs is safe and then they die. STOP IT OR I WILL TAKE DOWN THIS PAGE!!!!


Dreadfully sorry, I'll just not call... 
...I understand the concept of the message, but how about using that space to outline the adoption procedure then? Yikes.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

People are asking her to give him MORE TIME. Two days is not a lot of time - five days is not a lot of time. Is that unrealistic? What harm is time?


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## GROVEBEAUTY

What a sweet baby! I commend you for helping this sweet dog!


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## gsdraven

Jax's Mom said:


> ...and what's up with this disclaimer on his Facebook page:
> 
> Dreadfully sorry, I'll just not call...
> ...I understand the concept of the message, but how about using that space to outline the adoption procedure then? Yikes.


Because a lot of people say they will and back out at the last minute so people stop working on him thinking he is safe and then he falls through the cracks. It is why we also stress on here (in the Urgent section) that they are not considered safe until they are physically out of the shelter and in rescue/adopter hands.


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## Jax's Mom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Is that unrealistic? What harm is time?


I'm not there, I've never seen the dog, but if he's 15 years old and not eating... 

Whatever it is, I'm sure Mrs. K will make the right choice.


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## Mrs.K

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> People are asking her to give him MORE TIME. Two days is not a lot of time - five days is not a lot of time. Is that unrealistic? What harm is time?


I never said I would put him down in two days, I said IF I had to do it because of his condition. 

What harm is time? I will not let him starve to death. I do everything I can but again, there is only so much you can do with a dog in his condition and his condition is not good. 

AbbyK9's friend (and mine) had to come by and helped me to get him out of the tub because he couldn't get back up. I had to carry him up the stairs because he can't do it on himself, I have to carry him down the stairs because he can't do it himself... 

In his age, with his condition, there is only so much you can do. I give him medication, I cook him food, I bathe him, I love him, I spend time with him... but in the end, there is only so much I can do. 

I did more than anybody else offered to do and you are sitting here judging me? WHO ARE YOU to judge me? 

He's had better and more care than he's had in a long time.


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## Tbarrios333

Mrs.K said:


> I make my decision based on his condition. I will not let himself starve to death. He's had longer than the shelter would have given him. He'd be dead by now!
> 
> Jesus Christ people... REALLY?
> 
> 
> I do everything I can to keep that guy up and running but I stay realistic.


I don't think my comment was disrespectful in any way. 
As Jean suggested an old dog like him probably needs to be fed something small multiple times a day until he can relax.
He is a senior with health issues and it was likely that something like this was going to happen when you brought him home... I don't think it's fair to the dog to bring him and then put him down a week later for these problems. I also don't think it was wise or fair to adopt if there was another sick dog at home and you can't afford to treat this guy.

Of course, you are right; we can't see him. You can choose to ignore or take the advice/suggestions. 

I don't think anyone here is being disrespectful. I responded because to me there was cause for concern...
Again, just my $.02 and it can be ignored.


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## Mrs.K

He isn't eating at all. I've tried pretty much everything in the book. From soup, to groundbeef, to plain yoghurt and chicken breast. Every second hour I offered him food but he refuses it. He ate a tiny little bit of canned food, pretty much licked off the juice but other than that, he refuses everything I offer.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Tbarrios333 said:


> I don't think my comment was disrespectful in any way.
> As Jean suggested an old dog like him probably needs to be fed something small multiple times a day until he can relax.
> He is a senior with health issues and it was likely that something like this was going to happen when you brought him home... I don't think it's fair to the dog to bring him and then put him down a week later for these problems. I also don't think it was wise or fair to adopt if there was another sick dog at home and you can't afford to treat this guy.
> 
> Of course, you are right; we can't see him. You can choose to ignore or take the advice/suggestions.
> 
> I don't think anyone here is being disrespectful. I responded because to me there was cause for concern...
> Again, just my $.02 and it can be ignored.


Exactly this. 

And I think those people who said they would, would be willing to help out. 

Having brought a variety of dogs in, variety of levels of health and well-being, the thing that we have to give them is time. They don't all want to eat. My Nina ate Scooby Snacks for two weeks - isn't that disgusting - but she was so out of sorts that no other food appealed. After she adjusted she ate like a normal dog. My current foster had to be coaxed to eat, two weeks in she ate normally and now needs a special bowl to slow her down. You cannot use typical determinants of health necessarily, so have to have a careful approach.


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## Jax's Mom

gsdraven said:


> Because a lot of people say they will and back out at the last minute so people stop working on him thinking he is safe and then he falls through the cracks.  It is why we also stress on here (in the Urgent section) that they are not considered safe until they are physically out of the shelter and in rescue/adopter hands.


I get that they're probably frustrated to death of tire kickers but how about something like "before enquiring, please be aware..."
I'm sure there aren't people banging down doors to be barked at by shelter staff to pick up a urine soaked dog.
Just because a volunteer can tolerate the stench of urine and feces, doesn't exactly make them a prime candidate for public relations.


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## Jax08

Satin Balls? Have you tried those?


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## gsdraven

I agree with everyone else that not eating shouldn't be your measurement for life right now. It is not uncommon for a dog that has been stressed to the max like Chance has to not eat or be "down". We just want you to give him time to get over the tramatic shelter stuff before deciding that he has no will because of the medical stuff. At this point, you can't tell which issue (stress or disease) is causing his lack of appetite and energy.


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## Mrs.K

Which is why I have another appointment with the Vet today. There is quite a few things going on which I would base my opinion off. It's not just the food. That is WHY I said that we have to figure out if it is the stress or if he is trying to tell us that he is ready to go to the bridge. 

It would help if you would actually read what I say without reading "OMG she's going to put him down without giving him a chance at all" into it. 

And it is not the only thing that is said in this topic. 

It's the overall attitude and the judging, as well as the accusation of lying because my report is different from what the shelter staff said. Maybe my report is a little more realistic of what is really going on because they didn't even notice the lump right behind his ear and there is no notice at all about that lump in the paperwork as well... so much about that.


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## Mrs.K

Jax's Mom said:


> I get that they're probably frustrated to death of tire kickers but how about something like "before enquiring, please be aware..."
> I'm sure there aren't people banging down doors to be barked at by shelter staff to pick up a urine soaked dog.
> Just because a volunteer can tolerate the stench of urine and feces, doesn't exactly make them a prime candidate for public relations.


That is how I received the old man. 

They did not put a single minute into his care. His coat was in a horrible condition, matted and soaked with Urine...


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## Tbarrios333

It is a volunteer organization and not everyone is willing to do the things that fosters do. I for one would be heart broken if I dealt with what they did on a regular basis. 
My SO tells me all the time that I have more patience with animals than I do with people. I can't imagine what these people go through on a day to day basis when they probably don't even like people to begin with because of what they do to animals.
Not to mention all the emails/calls/facebook postings they get of people wanting an 'aggressive protection dog for the front yard'. I can see why they don't have the public relations aspect down.
Also, some people are just more blunt than others.


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> It would help if you would actually read what I say without reading "OMG she's going to put him down without giving him a chance at all" into it.


Well..it might be your track record and the fact that you STATED if he wasn't better in two days you were going to euthanize him because the money could be used for Judge. ummm..yeah...YOU said those things and we ACTUALLY read them. We didn't twist your words...they are right there in black and white. 

Are you listening to the EXPERIENCED rescue people when they say that it takes much longer than two days? How about two WEEKS. It would help if you would actually read what is being said to you.


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## JakodaCD OA

Not knowing the history of the dog, some dogs are the pickiest eaters on earth or it could be something else. He certainly doesn't look starved at this point.

I'd try some canned catfood or canned tunafish.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Well..it might be your track record and the fact that you STATED if he wasn't better in two days you were going to euthanize him because the money could be used for Judge. ummm..yeah...YOU said those things and we ACTUALLY read them. We didn't twist your words...they are right there in black and white.
> 
> Are you listening to the EXPERIENCED rescue people when they say that it takes much longer than two days? How about two WEEKS. It would help if you would actually read what is being said to you.


Perfect example that you are NOT reading what I said. And what track record do I have? That I put down Zenzy because of her aggression and getting to the point where she couldn't be controlled? She was MY dog. Not yours! My decision, NOT yours and it was a valid reason and decision. I did what I had to do. 

I said that I have to wait until he improves before I invest any money into a wheelchair. Because IF (*IF IF IF IF IF IF IF*) I have to put him down (BECAUSE of his condition) that is money that could go to Judge. 

Before I make any investments into anything I want to see his improvement and that is a valid reason.


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## Mrs.K

JakodaCD OA said:


> Not knowing the history of the dog, some dogs are the pickiest eaters on earth or it could be something else. He certainly doesn't look starved at this point.
> 
> I'd try some canned catfood or canned tunafish.


yeah, he did lick some canned food. Anyhow, we are going to Vet later on to see what we can do. So hopefully things will look better tomorrow. So far he hasn't done any real improvement. 

He's not starved, nowhere near being starved but I won't watch starving himself either. So if he hasn't eaten anything in a week and I have to force food down his throat just for the sake of keeping him alive, that is the point where I'd rather put him down. 

And if anyone wants to judge me for that... so be it.


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## JakodaCD OA

I wouldn't force feed a 15 yr old dog either.


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## Pattycakes

Mrs. K - you did a wonderful thing by bringing Chance home and loving him for as long as he has left.  That is a special thing. 

I'm familiar with DM and the effects so the fact that you have given Chance the ability to be in a home where he will be loved and cared for, is wonderful. Cuz DM is a very cruel disease so any "happy" times will be a blessing for him. 

Hugs to you both!


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## Jax08

Stop playing the victim. It's really old. 

Zenzy was absolutely your decision. It was your decision to continue to bring in more dogs as her aggression got worse. It was your decision to post on here about how nobody offered to help you or to take her. As if it were our fault. I really liked that particular post. Yup...it was 100% your decision and your business. How about you read back through your posts and find the one that said you wouldn't take on any more dogs and would worry about taking care of your own first. Or the thread where you were having a fit over the Great Dane that you couldn't handle. That track record.

Read back through these posts. People will freaking donate a wheel chair! Read through where people are offering advice on what to feed him. If you couldn't take on the responsibility of taking care of him, and aren't willing to give him more than two days, then you should make other arrangements and contact the rescues. 

Guess you own this dog and it's your decision too. Have you updated all those people on FB that think you're a hero on your decision?

I guess any further opinions on you I could state would get me banned from the board so I should walk away. Good Luck Chance.


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## Mrs.K

Jax... you are crazy... just stop... right now you are actually making a fool out of yourself. 

Kind of sad what you turned this topic into. It was about Ralph. Not about you or me. But you actually have a pattern. Not me. 

You attack me in almost every topic I am opening. Why don't you just put me on the ignore list. The things you say are completely out of this world.


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## Mrs.K

Pattycakes said:


> Mrs. K - you did a wonderful thing by bringing Chance home and loving him for as long as he has left.  That is a special thing.
> 
> I'm familiar with DM and the effects so the fact that you have given Chance the ability to be in a home where he will be loved and cared for, is wonderful. Cuz DM is a very cruel disease so any "happy" times will be a blessing for him.
> 
> Hugs to you both!



Thank you. 



Moderators, please close this topic.


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## Liesje

Well I for one think he looks better already. He may be old and dying but he certainly doesn't have that abandoned, hopeless look in his eyes. Just keep him comfortable, as you are...


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## elisabeth_00117

Liesje said:


> Well I for one think he looks better already. He may be old and dying but he certainly doesn't have that abandoned, hopeless look in his eyes. Just keep him comfortable, as you are...


Agreed.


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## LaRen616

Jax08 said:


> Stop playing the victim. It's really old.
> 
> Zenzy was absolutely your decision. It was your decision to continue to bring in more dogs as her aggression got worse. It was your decision to post on here about how nobody offered to help you or to take her. As if it were our fault. I really liked that particular post. Yup...it was 100% your decision and your business. How about you read back through your posts and find the one that said you wouldn't take on any more dogs and would worry about taking care of your own first. Or the thread where you were having a fit over the Great Dane that you couldn't handle. That track record.
> 
> Read back through these posts. People will freaking donate a wheel chair! Read through where people are offering advice on what to feed him. If you couldn't take on the responsibility of taking care of him, and aren't willing to give him more than two days, then you should make other arrangements and contact the rescues.
> 
> Guess you own this dog and it's your decision too. Have you updated all those people on FB that think you're a hero on your decision?
> 
> I guess any further opinions on you I could state would get me banned from the board so I should walk away. Good Luck Chance.


 
:thumbup:


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## Mrs.K

JakodaCD OA said:


> I wouldn't force feed a 15 yr old dog either.


Exactly. 

Let's see what the Vet says. He's well hydrated though, which is giving hope.


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## Rerun

If he's 82 lbs as the vet paperwork said, and given that he certainly doesn't look skinny at all, then he's clearly been eating. You are judging his will to live based on his desire to eat, when in reality he's probably just old, sore, and needs time to adjust. 

I don't understand the issue with the wheelchair. If you make arrangements for it, then he doesn't need it or has to be euthanized, then you can pay it forward to someone else. 

I thought it said he was a stray? So why the talk about him being dumped at the shelter?


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## Tbarrios333

Rerun said:


> If he's 82 lbs as the vet paperwork said, and given that he certainly doesn't look skinny at all, then he's clearly been eating. You are judging his will to live based on his desire to eat, when in reality he's probably just old, sore, and needs time to adjust.
> 
> I don't understand the issue with the wheelchair. If you make arrangements for it, then he doesn't need it or has to be euthanized, then you can pay it forward to someone else.
> 
> I thought it said he was a stray? So why the talk about him being dumped at the shelter?


Agree 100% especially if there really are people out there willing to donate a chair.
Many people have deaf dogs that get along fine.
It is just hard to see how he could have walked a few blocks while at the shelter and then deteriorate to the point where he can't walk anywhere in just a few days. I was under the impression that DM developed slowly? Maybe I am wrong.
Degenerative Myelopathy of German Shepherds


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## Mrs.K

From what I've been told his family dumped him there saying he was a stray and as I said before, he isn't skinny and his will to live does not depend on his eating. There is more involved than that. However, it's been three days with barely any food at all. I am working with the Rescue on his well being and comfort so I am not alone in this. 
The Rescue and I are on the same page. And that is all I have to say.


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## Liesje

Is someone donating a wheelchair? Or is that a hypothetical? Just curious b/c this thread makes it seem like they are readily available but I saw another recent thread where it took a while to scrounge one up for a younger dog with a different condition (something the dog can recover from, not DM).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

What rescue? 

Liesje on the FB link there are people willing to donate I believe. Or they said they were.


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## Mrs.K

A Wheelchair is out of option. I just got back from the Vet. He is in no condition for a Wheelchair. The minute we got in, he vomited blood. Even the vet said that the dog does not match the vet charts from Manhattan and anything we do is buying him a little more time.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I am so sorry. Poor Chance.


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## JakodaCD OA

poor guy I don't understand the vet chart not matching? I probably missed something..


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

Poor chane, you have done so much for the chap, But it is very true that at some point it is best to let them go when the quality of life isn't there any more.

sounds like you have done all you can for this old boy... Gut gemacht Mrs K....


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## Mrs.K

@Lisa-Marie: Danke sehr 



JakodaCD OA said:


> poor guy I don't understand the vet chart not matching? I probably missed something..


We don't see how he could have managed to walk around the block.

Either he went downhill very fast or they didn't disclose the full extend of his condition. 

Either way, he's a sweetheart, we are trying to buy him a little time with medication and hope that he'll respond to it. But we can't close our eyes to the fact that he's dying.


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## vat

Bless you Mrs K for giving this poor guy a loving home for what little time he has left. There really is only so much you can do, 15 is pretty old for a GSD. Make him comfy and love him, give him a kiss on the top of his head from me. At least he will not die alone!


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## katieliz

putting all the sniping and he said she said aside...want to say before they close the thread...

mrs. k thank you so very much for cleaning this dear soul up, for giving him love and comfort and medical care, for expending your energy trying to make whatever amount of life he has left better for him. thank you. whatever happens. thank you.

and also, i think everyone means well with their advice/opinions, sometimes people misunderstand or misinterpret things others have said, it's hard to convey feelings sometimes with the written word. and then, this is the internet after all. maybe just best to just kinda blow over the criticism and not take things personal.

and did i say thank you for helping this dog?..lol...take care, good luck with him (but 15...15 is so really old for a sheppie). bless your heart bud.


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## ILGHAUS

> The minute we got in, he vomited blood.


There was no warning to the Rescue or anyone else on this condition before? What would bring this on so suddenly? What did the vet say? And more importantly what did the Rescue say when you told them this update? I'm not so sure I would be wanting to continue working with this rescue as they lied to you about his condition. Minor things can slip through the cracks but if they told you this guy was able to walk around the block and he isn't even able to take more then a couple of steps - well there is nothing to excuse their out and out lying to you. 

I hadn't really realized that a rescue had been involved as I thought he had come from a shelter. And what type of rescue allows a dog to be adopted out in such foul dirty shape as he was when you picked him up. 

Whoever that rescue is they don't deserve the name and I hope you don't allow them to get away with such. If they are a reg. non-profit I sure would be notifying the appropriate agencies. This whole thing really has me upset that a group would take such advantage of someone.


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## Mrs.K

ILGHAUS said:


> There was no warning to the Rescue or anyone else on this condition before? What would bring this on so suddenly? What did the vet say? And more importantly what did the Rescue say when you told them this update?


Apparently that was a first. Just like the lump behind his ear went unnoticed. It could be due to the fact that he went without food for so long and that the Doxi is rough on his stomache. He's lost weight too. 

But he did eat wetfood again. Apparently he's a Pedigree Dog. The vet said that if I can get him to eat it might go away since the meds can be rough on a stomach without food. 

As for the Rescue, they know as much as I do and we do not expect any great wonders to happen. After all he's 15 years old, in a bad condition and every day with him is a gift. 

The vet itself said that all we can do is to buy him a little more time.


----------



## Mrs.K

ILGHAUS said:


> There was no warning to the Rescue or anyone else on this condition before? What would bring this on so suddenly? What did the vet say? And more importantly what did the Rescue say when you told them this update? I'm not so sure I would be wanting to continue working with this rescue as they lied to you about his condition. Minor things can slip through the cracks but if they told you this guy was able to walk around the block and he isn't even able to take more then a couple of steps - well there is nothing to excuse their out and out lying to you.
> 
> I hadn't really realized that a rescue had been involved as I thought he had come from a shelter. And what type of rescue allows a dog to be adopted out in such foul dirty shape as he was when you picked him up.
> 
> Whoever that rescue is they don't deserve the name and I hope you don't allow them to get away with such. If they are a reg. non-profit I sure would be notifying the appropriate agencies. This whole thing really has me upset that a group would take such advantage of someone.



The Rescue did not lie to me! I knew he wasn't clean but that is not the Rescues fault. They know as much as I do and are very supportive and with all the bashing going on in this topic I won't disclose the name at all! 

It was an overnight thing and a quick move. 
It was THE SHELTER that posted that he could walk around the block, NOT the rescue!


----------



## Mrs.K

I am actually really disappointed in some people on here. Play the blaming game somewhere else. It's not the rescues nor my fault that the dog is in the condition he is in. We've tried to get him out of that **** hole and to give him some more days to live. That is all there is to it. Neither the rescue nor I knew his true condition. 

I am really getting tired of this place. 

Thanks to all the supportive voices and thanks to all the private messages and the encouragement. It really helps to keep going. It truly is an evil disease and I have never seen in a dog in a condition like that, ever before. I've never had any exposure to DM in my life. It's a first time experience and it's heartbreaking to see a dog like that. I applaud everybody who is dealing with it without losing faith and hope. 

Anyone caring for a dog that is suffering from it. You are doing a great job. It's NOT easy and takes a great deal of commitment and effort. Thank you!


----------



## DharmasMom

Mrs.K- I want to say thank you for taking this old guy and making sure he doesn't die cold, alone, afraid and bewildered surrounded by people who don't really care in a shelter. Thank you for caring for and loving him for as long as he has left.

And to everyone who is judging- let's be real. The dog is 15 and apparently in horrible shape. I do not believe in making animals suffer just so we can pat ourselves on the back and say "look how great we are. We saved a life" I feel this way about people, too, btw. Life is about quality, not quantity. And when quality is gone, it's time to say goodbye. She is with the dog and I believe she knows best. There is a whole lot more going on then the dog just not eating (although if he has started vomiting blood, that could be a VERY good reason why he didn't want to eat). 
Personally, I think everyone should back off. Even if Chance (or is his name Ralph) only gets a week, at least he was loved during that time and didn't die in a shelter.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Mrs. K 
Thanks for taking on this dog near the end of his life. You are making him as comfortable as possible.
There are apparently some personalities and some history going on here but really does anyone think Mrs. K went to all this trouble just to bring him home so she could put him to sleep. She is there and making the tough decisions.


----------



## Mary&Stella

I just read this thread this morning and I say bless you Mrs K for giving this old guy a loving home for whatever time is left, when it is time to say good bye at least his last weeks here will have been filled with love and kindness, its all anyone can ask for for the old guy.


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## Whiteshepherds

DharmasMom said:


> Mrs.K- I want to say thank you for taking this old guy and making sure he doesn't die cold, alone, afraid and bewildered surrounded by people who don't really care in a shelter. Thank you for caring for and loving him for as long as he has left.


My thoughts exactly. Hang in there.


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## koda girl

Good job Mrs. K, you are one special lady.  And Chance is one lucky dog. :hug:


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## sagelfn

All I have to say is I'm happy he is clean, loved, and out of the shelter. He's 15! He truely is a special boy and deserves no less. Give him a kiss for me.


----------



## ILGHAUS

> I am actually really disappointed in some people on here. Play the blaming game somewhere else. It's not the rescues nor my fault that the dog is in the condition he is in. We've tried to get him out of that **** hole and to give him some more days to live. That is all there is to it. Neither the rescue nor I knew his true condition.





> It was an overnight thing and a quick move.


 
Excuse me. 

I was not aware that the rescue only had him overnight before adopting him out. I'm use to rescues that keep a dog until they are stable. I did not realize that this was just a pull and turn over.



> I am really getting tired of this place


I don't know how to respond to that ...


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## GSDElsa

It's very nice that you're bringing him in.

Just a word of advice, however, for the future. Before he can in someone mentioned that wiseness (did I just make up a word?) of bringing in a dog with medical needs when you are trying to save for surgery for another. You said all bills would be covered by donations and no expense from you so it wasn't a concern.

Yet you repeatedly mentioned saving for Judge's surgery over this dog potential wheelchair as a major concern. I hope the realities of the expense that can possibly be incured by rescuing has been hit home here and you (as much as you would like to), not do this again. You do need to think about your current dogs and their needs before you bring in another dog. Because once the new dog comes in, to a certain extent you need to put your other dog's needs aside and focus on the sick one in your house without worrying that something for the other 3 is not taken care of. 

It really doesn't seem like you are in a position to be doing stuff like this until Judge's surgery is completely saved for. While it is WONDERFUL that you saved him from being put down at a shelter, there is now another driving force in this issue and it's festering quite a bit of resentment on both sides of the camp. Judge's care is rightfully a concern of yours, but I don't think you should be taking in another dog in the house until Judge's needs/savings are completely fufilled. THEN take in a dog when you aren't having to mentally caculate the money you'd be taking away from your down dogs to do something for the new one.

Sad situation all around. While I think your heart is in the right place, the execution is a bit off I think. Hopefully lessons here learned.


----------



## vat

DharmasMom said:


> Mrs.K- I want to say thank you for taking this old guy and making sure he doesn't die cold, alone, afraid and bewildered surrounded by people who don't really care in a shelter. Thank you for caring for and loving him for as long as he has left.
> 
> And to everyone who is judging- let's be real. The dog is 15 and apparently in horrible shape. I do not believe in making animals suffer just so we can pat ourselves on the back and say "look how great we are. We saved a life" I feel this way about people, too, btw. Life is about quality, not quantity. And when quality is gone, it's time to say goodbye. She is with the dog and I believe she knows best. There is a whole lot more going on then the dog just not eating (although if he has started vomiting blood, that could be a VERY good reason why he didn't want to eat).
> Personally, I think everyone should back off. Even if Chance (or is his name Ralph) only gets a week, at least he was loved during that time and didn't die in a shelter.


I could not agree more!


----------



## LaRen616

GSDElsa said:


> It's very nice that you're bringing him in.
> 
> Just a word of advice, however, for the future. Before he can in someone mentioned that wiseness (did I just make up a word?) of bringing in a dog with medical needs when you are trying to save for surgery for another. You said all bills would be covered by donations and no expense from you so it wasn't a concern.
> 
> Yet you repeatedly mentioned saving for Judge's surgery over this dog potential wheelchair as a major concern. I hope the realities of the expense that can possibly be incured by rescuing has been hit home here and you (as much as you would like to), not do this again. You do need to think about your current dogs and their needs before you bring in another dog. Because once the new dog comes in, to a certain extent you need to put your other dog's needs aside and focus on the sick one in your house without worrying that something for the other 3 is not taken care of.
> 
> It really doesn't seem like you are in a position to be doing stuff like this until Judge's surgery is completely saved for. While it is WONDERFUL that you saved him from being put down at a shelter, there is now another driving force in this issue and it's festering quite a bit of resentment on both sides of the camp. Judge's care is rightfully a concern of yours, but I don't think you should be taking in another dog in the house until Judge's needs/savings are completely fufilled. THEN take in a dog when you aren't having to mentally caculate the money you'd be taking away from your down dogs to do something for the new one.
> 
> Sad situation all around. While I think your heart is in the right place, the execution is a bit off I think. Hopefully lessons here learned.


:thumbup:


----------



## Lilie

I am pretty disappointed. I think we're missing a great opportunity here to learn about the care and management of a 15 year old dog with DM. Even if it's just for a few days - there are some things that can be learned. 

Mrs. K - I truly hope that you can step above this becoming a personal issue and at least for me and anybody else who has never owned a 15 year old dog - who is obviously dieing - tell me what are you doing that seems to be working to make this dog more comfortable during it's last days. What seems to make it happy? What are you doing that is making it want to wake up every morning? 

I really don't care about the details that don't matter (at this point) to this dog. I care about and want to learn about what is being done to make the last days of this dog's life happy.


----------



## CarrieJ

Mrs. K.
It's commendable that you've taken in this guy for his last days and he's gotten the love/care that he deserves as a living being on this planet.
Nothing deserves to die neglected and alone.

A side note: BadRap, the local pitbull rescue in my area understands that many seniors are not adoptable due to health and behavior issues.('cause we all know how adoptable even young healthy pits are)
They will try to find fosters for that short time that these dogs do have left on the planet.
They have a fund set up and always need fosters for this tough job called the "Compassion Fund" (I think that's what it's called...my mind drifted a bit)
They know these dogs will die, they just would prefer that it happen in a caring foster. I have the utmost respect for these people.

Kudos to you Mrs. K for taking on a 15 year old GSD that's a goodly age and he's probably still more comfortable now than when he first arrived.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> It's very nice that you're bringing him in.
> 
> Just a word of advice, however, for the future. Before he can in someone mentioned that wiseness (did I just make up a word?) of bringing in a dog with medical needs when you are trying to save for surgery for another. You said all bills would be covered by donations and no expense from you so it wasn't a concern.
> 
> Yet you repeatedly mentioned saving for Judge's surgery over this dog potential wheelchair as a major concern. I hope the realities of the expense that can possibly be incured by rescuing has been hit home here and you (as much as you would like to), not do this again. You do need to think about your current dogs and their needs before you bring in another dog. Because once the new dog comes in, to a certain extent you need to put your other dog's needs aside and focus on the sick one in your house without worrying that something for the other 3 is not taken care of.
> 
> It really doesn't seem like you are in a position to be doing stuff like this until Judge's surgery is completely saved for. While it is WONDERFUL that you saved him from being put down at a shelter, there is now another driving force in this issue and it's festering quite a bit of resentment on both sides of the camp. Judge's care is rightfully a concern of yours, but I don't think you should be taking in another dog in the house until Judge's needs/savings are completely fufilled. THEN take in a dog when you aren't having to mentally caculate the money you'd be taking away from your down dogs to do something for the new one.
> 
> Sad situation all around. While I think your heart is in the right place, the execution is a bit off I think. Hopefully lessons here learned.


Justine, how I save for Judges surgery is my concern. A fixed amount is going into his fund and everything that is left over, is for me to decide of how to spend it, I can either put it into the fund, or spend it otherwise. However, when I took him in, nobody expected me to pull out my checkbook and make any big investments. Yes, all his medical bills were covered, transportation was covered and if needed there is always the possibility to run another chip in.

As for the Wheelchair, I've said from the beginning that I want to know the full extend of his condition before I jump onto donations or invest into one myself which is absolutely valid. The vet said the exact same thing as I did and in his condition, he won't need a wheelchair. There will be no major vet bills because there is nothing we can do. The only expense I had was for the Rymadil and that is it. And that is something I can easily spend on a 15 year old dog. 

I've got a good head on my shoulders and I can manage my dogs and our expenses just fine. 




> Mrs. K - I truly hope that you can step above this becoming a personal issue and at least for me and anybody else who has never owned a 15 year old dog - who is obviously dieing - tell me what are you doing that seems to be working to make this dog more comfortable during it's last days. What seems to make it happy? What are you doing that is making it want to wake up every morning?


I've had some very good suggestions from a lot of people. I am trying to get him up four or five times during a day, even if it's just for a couple of minutes down the road and back. 

To initially get him up, Indra is actually a big help. She does get him up and walking, seems like he's got a crush on her and any time she is around he is in much better spirit. 
During the night I keep him in the Sunroom, separated. I keep him out of the crate because once he's in the crate, it's hard to get him out. 

I've had to go through a series of food to find out what he's actually eating. He would not touch the good stuff but touched Pedigree wetfood. 

I clean his hindpart with warm water and babysoap. He does pee himself a lot. It also looks like he's pooping while he's asleep. It keeps him clean and helps with the odor. 

I have to talk very loud, most of the time he doesn't hear it. What he does recognize is the vibration of the footsteps so I have to be careful to approach him while he's asleep so it doesn't startle him too much. 

For now, he's resting on pillows, with a garbage bag underneath. If he's got problems to pee I can actually help him with that by gently massaging his belly and by putting a little pressure on it. It also helps him with pooping. I actually found that out by accident. When I tried to lift him up to the stairs, I put pressure on his belly, he pooped and fell into it. 

I have put waterbowls around the house so he doesn't have to go too far to drink. He tends to walk from one bowl to another, stop and take a sip here and there. 

I make sure that he gets up and switches sides so he won't get any sores, plus taking him out four/five times a day (just like a puppy) helps too. 

It's pretty much like caring for a baby.


----------



## dogless

Mrs. K, it makes me almost cry to read how kind you are. I lost a dog to DM and I know how sad it is. And for you to take one on voluntarily is beyond words :hug:

Keep up the good work.


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## Lilie

I might have missed it, but at 15 years old does he have any teeth left? If you froze something like pedilyte (sp) and gave it to him, do you think that would encourage him to intake more fluids?


----------



## Mrs.K

Lilie said:


> I might have missed it, but at 15 years old does he have any teeth left? If you froze something like pedilyte (sp) and gave it to him, do you think that would encourage him to intake more fluids?


He's got barely any teeth left. Fluids is not an issue. He drinks a lot, it's the food we have problems with. But he does seem to be starting to eat.


----------



## GSDElsa

Sandra,

I am merely quoting your own words. Last week, when someone asked if taking on a senior with medical problems was a good idea considering the situation with Judge. You said it wouldn't be a concern.

In this thread, you have repeatedly said that a driving force in your spending money on this guy is you thinking that its money that could be going towards Judge's surgery.

No, no one can tell you what to do (and I'm not sure where you got the idea I was telling you how to budget or how to spend you money). But, you can't expect that some people on here are going to feel a little "sting" when you say one of the main reasons you're not as inclined to spend $$ on something like a wheelchair is because of "Judge's fund." 

It's certainly no one's business what you are spending and how you manage your finances. But you do offer yourself up to judgement and critique on your methods when you are saying some of the things you have in this thread. Whether you MEAN it or not, it certainly comes off as sounding like you are not wanting to spend money on him because you think it would be taking away from your current dogs.

For those passionate about rescue, that's not how things "work" for them. Most people (including me) do not think you should take a dog in unless all the needs of your current dog are met so you are not wrestling with the idea of "If I do A, Dog Z isn't going to get B." Whether it in a monetary sense or because of time, energy--whatever it may be.


----------



## Lilie

Mrs.K said:


> He's got barely any teeth left. Fluids is not an issue. He drinks a lot, it's the food we have problems with. But he does seem to be starting to eat.


Oh, poor baby. I suppose he is used to eating soaked food, or canned.


----------



## Mrs.K

Yes, because it COULD go towards his fund on TOP what is already going there. I really don't understand why everybody is making such a big deal out of that. 

It's MY business how I spend MY money. And how I spend MY money is MY concern and I AM concerned and always think an investment through before I actually do it and where else it could go instead! And wanting to know if he is actually in the condition for a wheelchair is an absolute valid reason. I am not jumping on getting him a wheelchair just because others think it would be a great idea, without knowing if he actually makes it through the night or if he can support himself in a wheelchair. 
Maybe others are like that, but I am not! 
And as it turns out, he can't support himself in a wheelchair, just like I suspected. So there is absolutely no point in discussing that any further! 

Some rescuers are blind and need a reality check. If I rescue I think everything through, how everybody elses needs are covered because you NEVER know what happens. Your dog could be hit by a car or attacked by another dog and you've got an emergency on your hand. You always have to think where your finances go or stand unless you are a billionair or have no issues to throw yourself into debt which doesn't help anyone either. 


IF THAT is a problem, it's certainly not mine!


----------



## Mrs.K

Lilie said:


> Oh, poor baby. I suppose he is used to eating soaked food, or canned.


It looks like he's used to canned food. 
I tried soaked food but he wouldn't touch it. He didn't touch yoghurt, chickenbreast nor soup... but he did touch the canned food. So that is what he's getting for now.


----------



## Myamom

How do we know he's 15 with DM? He was a "stray"..correct? This is an adoption directly through the shelter is it not? (mention of rescue is throwing me off). What was the reason for the blood per the vet? Just trying to get all the facts here because I'm getting confused. 

So...now...let's regroup. I too took on a senior dying dog. I took her on though as a hospice foster FOR a rescue because I knew I could never afford all she would need. I thought she would last a month or so... Much to everyone's surprise...almost TWO YEARS after her pull from the shelter she is alive and well and happy!!! Shelter said she needed to be euthanized and did not even want rescue to pull her...she was THAT bad. Vet she saw after her pull said she needed to be euthanized. But the rescue wanted to give her a chance. So...much love, time, tears, effort, stress, money...look where we are! I'm not saying every dog is going to be as lucky as her...but this dog deserves time to get a handle on exactly what is going on i.e. definitive diagnosis, time to try some things, etc. Sometimes dogs appear older and sicker than they really are due to neglect. There are truly miracles to be had...I can attest to that!


----------



## GSDElsa

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, because it COULD go towards his fund on TOP what is already going there. I really don't understand why everybody is making such a big deal out of that.
> 
> It's MY business how I spend MY money. And how I spend MY money is MY concern and I AM concerned and always think an investment through before I actually do it and where else it could go instead! And wanting to know if he is actually in the condition for a wheelchair is an absolute valid reason. I am not jumping on getting him a wheelchair just because others think it would be a great idea, without knowing if he actually makes it through the night or if he can support himself in a wheelchair.
> Maybe others are like that, but I am not!
> And as it turns out, he can't support himself in a wheelchair, just like I suspected. So there is absolutely no point in discussing that any further!
> 
> Some rescuers are blind and need a reality check. If I rescue I think everything through, how everybody elses needs are covered because you NEVER know what happens. Your dog could be hit by a car or attacked by another dog and you've got an emergency on your hand. You always have to think where your finances go or stand unless you are a billionair or have no issues to throw yourself into debt which doesn't help anyone either.
> 
> 
> IF THAT is a problem, it's certainly not mine!


You're not getting the point. The point being you are letting the needs of your _current _dog affect you objectively analyzing the needs of the _new_ dog. The point you have stressed the _MOST_ is that you don't want to spend money on a dog that is on it's last legs because of the another one of your dogs.

The wheelchair is not the issue but rather you not being able to separate issue A from issue B without intertwining the two issues.......

I'm really not sure you DID think this out in it's entirety. You knew you were taking on a senior with possibly serious health issues...but you don't think you are in a spot emotionally to spend the money on him without thinking in the back of your mind that you are in some way taking something away from you other dogs. It's not like you were told you were getting a perfectly healthy 1 year old who happened to have a broken leg and need surgery. 

There is certainly nothing WRONG with how you feel. You could have even not realized that the two issues would conflict with one another until he got there.......but it's obvious that there IS a lot of conflict on care of a newcomer vs. taking care of Judge. I'm sure I'd be the same way. Think about how many times you mentioned Judge's situation in this thread and _*really *_think how objectively you are approaching things.


----------



## Mrs.K

GSDElsa said:


> You're not getting the point. The point being you are letting the needs of your _current _dog affect you objectively analyzing the needs of the _new_ dog. The point you have stressed the _MOST_ is that you don't want to spend money on a dog that is on it's last legs because of the another one of your dogs.
> 
> The wheelchair is not the issue but rather you not being able to separate issue A from issue B without intertwining the two issues.......
> 
> I'm really not sure you DID think this out in it's entirety. You knew you were taking on a senior with possibly serious health issues...but you don't think you are in a spot emotionally to spend the money on him without thinking in the back of your mind that you are in some way taking something away from you other dogs. It's not like you were told you were getting a perfectly healthy 1 year old who happened to have a broken leg and need surgery.
> 
> There is certainly nothing WRONG with how you feel. You could have even not realized that the two issues would conflict with one another until he got there.......but it's obvious that there IS a lot of conflict on care of a newcomer vs. taking care of Judge. I'm sure I'd be the same way. Think about how many times you mentioned Judge's situation in this thread and _*really *_think how objectively you are approaching things.



I can separate the issues just fine and I CERTAINLY get the point. The thing is that some of you guys here don't get the point. 

I am NOT willed to spend money if it doesn't make sense to spend money. If he was in the condition for a wheelchair, yes, I'd spend the money. But he is NOT and I did not want to make that investment without knowing if he'll even live the next two days because that is money that could have went to another dog. 

I really don't understand what the **** is so hard to understand about that. 

I spend money when it makes sense to spend money and I always determine where ever else that money could go to. 

*And right now, what I would really appreciate from ALL OF YOU is to BACK OFF! *


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## DharmasMom

GSDElsa, Why do YOU feel the need to continue to beat a dead horse. The dog is in her care now. What is done and her finances are HER business. Unless you are her financial adviser or somehow supporting her financially how or what she spends money on is NOT your concern. If she feels she can make this work that is ALL you need to know. 

Personally, if you were up in my business like this, I would be uber ticked off.


----------



## stacey_eight

Why is this thread still open? I think Mrs.K has gone above and beyond what the average person and even average GSD lover would do. It is my personal opinion that this dog is a lucky boy to have such loving care, even if he lives another 2 hours, 2 days or 2 years...


----------



## Tbarrios333

GSDElsa said:


> Hopefully lessons are learned.


I'm about to get flamed, but I feel this is important. FYI - I'm not accusing the OP of anything because I don't know everything. Questioning and accusing are two VERY different things.

To commence with, instead of some posters getting defensive and running to the OP's aid, we should critically examine why there are concerns. 
If EXPERIENCED (Jean, Elsa, Jax) rescue people are perturbed and are offering valid advice, take it. I don't see how most of these posts are an attack on the OP. I really don't. It is for the DOGS and that should be remembered; they are the priority because they do not have a voice.
The OP doesn't need a knight in shining armor; if anything, she needs some advice on how to care for a dog in this condition from people that have done this before.

There is no reason to say "I'm so disappointed in this thread." 
There are snippets of valuable information from experienced people all over this thread; they are just ignored because of the defensiveness. 

When someone says 'Don't adopt if you can't afford it' take that advice and consider this opinion in the future. Taking in rescues (especially an old one like this) means spending $$. If you're not ready or willing for the financial responsibility, DON'T rescue. Your heart is in the right place, but your wallet is not.

If another says 'I don't think you should put him down so soon' take it and consider it further for your dogs sake; he's the one who is going to die after all. Ultimately, it is the owner's decision anyway.

If yet another says 'Try feeding your dogs this or that in this manner' take that advice as well and don't defensively post that you have already tried everything when clearly that is impossible.

If you wonder why some are suspicious, then take a look at this: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-you-know-where-dog-going-w-rhayas-post.html

In no way am I accusing her of being one of 'those' homes, but when something is off, it's off. 
In this case people were concerned because it is a fact that rescues need more than ONE week to adjust and the OP was considering having the dog put down pending her vet's recommendation in just two days. If he truly has DM, this recommendation is moot because clearly he will not recover within this very short time frame.

Moreover, the rescue's report conflicts severely with the story we are getting here. In the end it comes down to 'who do I believe?.' Do I believe the report or do I believe the adopter? There is a refusal to give up the rescue's name. Why? Why should there be anything to hide if everything that is happening is known by the rescue?
There are only a few explanations for this. Either the rescue was lying or the OP is lying, or there was a genuine miscommunication between the shelter and the rescue. 
The facts do not add up, but we will never know the truth because again - no names for the organizations.
If I must really let you know why some are curious about the name it is not because they want to slam the rescue, it's because some like to call and try to figure out what is happening.

There are numerous red flags all over the place. People that accept these charming stories with open arms should wake up and examine the facts.
This is the internet and we NEVER know who people really are. Heck, you may know some people now that are not what they seem. 
It is imperative that we do not openly trust EVERYONE that wants to/does rescue because doing so places the dogs at risk.

$.02 or maybe closer to $5.


----------



## LaRen616

Tbarrios333 said:


> I'm about to get flamed, but I feel this is important. FYI - I'm not accusing the OP of anything because I don't know everything. Questioning and accusing are two VERY different things.
> 
> To commence with, instead of some posters getting defensive and running to the OP's aid, we should critically examine why there are concerns.
> If EXPERIENCED (Jean, Elsa, Jax) rescue people are perturbed and are offering valid advice, take it. I don't see how most of these posts are an attack on the OP. I really don't. It is for the DOGS and that should be remembered; they are the priority because they do not have a voice.
> The OP doesn't need a knight in shining armor; if anything, she needs some advice on how to care for a dog in this condition from people that have done this before.
> 
> There is no reason to say "I'm so disappointed in this thread."
> There are snippets of valuable information from experienced people all over this thread; they are just ignored because of the defensiveness.
> 
> When someone says 'Don't adopt if you can't afford it' take that advice and consider this opinion in the future. Taking in rescues (especially an old one like this) means spending $$. If you're not ready or willing for the financial responsibility, DON'T rescue. Your heart is in the right place, but your wallet is not.
> 
> If another says 'I don't think you should put him down so soon' take it and consider it further for your dogs sake; he's the one who is going to die after all. Ultimately, it is the owner's decision anyway.
> 
> If yet another says 'Try feeding your dogs this or that in this manner' take that advice as well and don't defensively post that you have already tried everything when clearly that is impossible.
> 
> If you wonder why some are suspicious, then take a look at this: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-you-know-where-dog-going-w-rhayas-post.html
> 
> In no way am I accusing her of being one of 'those' homes, but when something is off, it's off.
> In this case people were concerned because it is a fact that rescues need more than ONE week to adjust and the OP was considering having the dog put down pending her vet's recommendation in just two days. If he truly has DM, this recommendation is moot because clearly he will not recover within this very short time frame.
> 
> Moreover, the rescue's report conflicts severely with the story we are getting here. In the end it comes down to 'who do I believe?.' Do I believe the report or do I believe the adopter? There is a refusal to give up the rescue's name. Why? Why should there be anything to hide if everything that is happening is known by the rescue?
> There are only a few explanations for this. Either the rescue was lying or the OP is lying, or there was a genuine miscommunication between the shelter and the rescue.
> The facts do not add up, but we will never know the truth because again - no names for the organizations.
> If I must really let you know why some are curious about the name it is not because they want to slam the rescue, it's because some like to call and try to figure out what is happening.
> 
> There are numerous red flags all over the place. People that accept these charming stories with open arms should wake up and examine the facts.
> This is the internet and we NEVER know who people really are. Heck, you may know some people now that are not what they seem.
> It is imperative that we do not openly trust EVERYONE that wants to/does rescue because doing so places the dogs at risk.
> 
> $.02 or maybe closer to $5.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Jax's Mom

Just curious, was there someone else who wanted to take this dog instead of Mrs. K?


----------



## GSDElsa

DharmasMom said:


> GSDElsa, Why do YOU feel the need to continue to beat a dead horse. The dog is in her care now. What is done and her finances are HER business. Unless you are her financial adviser or somehow supporting her financially how or what she spends money on is NOT your concern. If she feels she can make this work that is ALL you need to know.
> 
> Personally, if you were up in my business like this, I would be uber ticked off.


Funny thing about the internet is that when you put something on a public forum, you are opening yourself up to getting one's opinion (actually more like words of wisdom for rescuing in the future) whether you like it or not.

This is about the DOG. Not about Sandra and her finances. And this isn't just an internet rampage. I happen to know Sandra and Judge personally. If she was having the same conversation with me in person, I would be telling her the exact same things whether it was equally as poorly received. This is not about a personal attack on Sandra--far from it. It's a blanket conversation that goes for* ANYONE* in this situation.

Certainly Sandra, nor anyone else, needs to take my advice. But I'm not exactly sure where you're going to see anything bad in what I'm saying.


----------



## CLARKE-DUNCAN

Jax's Mom said:


> Just curious, was there someone else who wanted to take this dog instead of Mrs. K?


 
:thumbup::happyboogie::thumbup: Well said, I think everyone has had their opinions on this matter now, and this thread should be closed.


----------



## DharmasMom

You know what I see. a WHOLE lot of people here who want to judge a situation from behind their computer screens when they don't have the whole story. People want to jump on a rescue and condemn it (heck, I wouldn't give the name either) when I haven't seen one word that an evaluation was done by a rescue. Everybody wants to jump in and say do this and do that, try this and try that, give a and give b. Well, how many of you have actually laid eyes or paws on Chance??? Well??

As far as I know not to many of you. AbbyK9 has but I haven't seen her post. The rest of you, not so much. And it doesn't matter if you had a dog that did this or a dog that did that-- GUESS WHAT?!? That isn't CHANCE!!! This is a different dog and Mrs K has to do and act how she feels and think is best for THIS dog. And since I have never gotten a beat-abuse-mistreat-neglect vibe from her and in fact she seems to REALLY know dogs and love them and care about them, I will trust her judgement. Seh is doing a wonderful thing for this old guy. And that is what he is A REALLY OLD GUY!! Who needs to be allowed to die WITH DIGNITY AND LOVE AND COMPASSION. This isn't about giving him a better quality of life so he can live another year or 2. GSDs don't live to be 16 or 17 so stop trying to convince her that is the road she should take. And stop trying to make her feel guilty for still wanting the best for her dogs at the same time. 

Believe it or not people she is trying to do a good deed and apparently a few of you VERY judgmental types would rather that dog have been euthanized in that shelter while he was still dirty, matted stinky and unloved-- BECAUSE THAT WAS HIS ALTERNATIVE!!!!


----------



## GSDElsa

Well, I'll back up a second and say that I do NOT think that Sandra applies to the type of person you are describing. I do know her personally (she is on a neighboring SAR team) and do not think she is "guilty" of anything other than letting emotions and a situation with Dog A get in the way of thinking objectively for the care of Dog B.

But I am in a unique situation having interacted with this person and her dogs on numerous occasions, so I do think that any unknown person in general should be approached with that kind of skeptism. 



Tbarrios333 said:


> I'm about to get flamed, but I feel this is important. FYI - I'm not accusing the OP of anything because I don't know everything. Questioning and accusing are two VERY different things.
> 
> To commence with, instead of some posters getting defensive and running to the OP's aid, we should critically examine why there are concerns.
> If EXPERIENCED (Jean, Elsa, Jax) rescue people are perturbed and are offering valid advice, take it. I don't see how most of these posts are an attack on the OP. I really don't. It is for the DOGS and that should be remembered; they are the priority because they do not have a voice.
> The OP doesn't need a knight in shining armor; if anything, she needs some advice on how to care for a dog in this condition from people that have done this before.
> 
> There is no reason to say "I'm so disappointed in this thread."
> There are snippets of valuable information from experienced people all over this thread; they are just ignored because of the defensiveness.
> 
> When someone says 'Don't adopt if you can't afford it' take that advice and consider this opinion in the future. Taking in rescues (especially an old one like this) means spending $$. If you're not ready or willing for the financial responsibility, DON'T rescue. Your heart is in the right place, but your wallet is not.
> 
> If another says 'I don't think you should put him down so soon' take it and consider it further for your dogs sake; he's the one who is going to die after all. Ultimately, it is the owner's decision anyway.
> 
> If yet another says 'Try feeding your dogs this or that in this manner' take that advice as well and don't defensively post that you have already tried everything when clearly that is impossible.
> 
> If you wonder why some are suspicious, then take a look at this: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-you-know-where-dog-going-w-rhayas-post.html
> 
> In no way am I accusing her of being one of 'those' homes, but when something is off, it's off.
> In this case people were concerned because it is a fact that rescues need more than ONE week to adjust and the OP was considering having the dog put down pending her vet's recommendation in just two days. If he truly has DM, this recommendation is moot because clearly he will not recover within this very short time frame.
> 
> Moreover, the rescue's report conflicts severely with the story we are getting here. In the end it comes down to 'who do I believe?.' Do I believe the report or do I believe the adopter? There is a refusal to give up the rescue's name. Why? Why should there be anything to hide if everything that is happening is known by the rescue?
> There are only a few explanations for this. Either the rescue was lying or the OP is lying, or there was a genuine miscommunication between the shelter and the rescue.
> The facts do not add up, but we will never know the truth because again - no names for the organizations.
> If I must really let you know why some are curious about the name it is not because they want to slam the rescue, it's because some like to call and try to figure out what is happening.
> 
> There are numerous red flags all over the place. People that accept these charming stories with open arms should wake up and examine the facts.
> This is the internet and we NEVER know who people really are. Heck, you may know some people now that are not what they seem.
> It is imperative that we do not openly trust EVERYONE that wants to/does rescue because doing so places the dogs at risk.
> 
> $.02 or maybe closer to $5.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

1. No one knows how old this dog is. 
2. DM is often misdiagnosed. 
3. People were responding to:


> The vet said to give him a couple of more days and then based on his condition to either put him to sleep or to go from there and give him a little more time.


BALANCE (if I may yell too?) is not saying someone is a hero, angel, or saint, nor are they evil and bad. 

Balance is looking at the situation, pointing out some things that should be considered, offering informed opinions, and the person getting that information doesn't consider those responses heroic or evil. 

In this situation, someone did something nice. But perhaps was not prepared in every way to see it through and when people offered information that would help to do things in a different way, things did not go well. 

Debbi - don't you ever -


> Believe it or not people she is trying to do a good deed and a*pparently a few of you VERY judgmental types would rather that dog have been euthanized in that shelter *while he was still dirty, matted stinky and unloved-- BECAUSE THAT WAS HIS ALTERNATIVE!!!!


 say something like this to me or anyone else on this board again. You have no idea how many dogs have had awful, terrible deaths because people on this board were afraid to judge.


----------



## Mrs.K

DharmasMom said:


> You know what I see. a WHOLE lot of people here who want to judge a situation from behind their computer screens when they don't have the whole story. People want to jump on a rescue and condemn it (heck, I wouldn't give the name either) when I haven't seen one word that an evaluation was done by a rescue. Everybody wants to jump in and say do this and do that, try this and try that, give a and give b. Well, how many of you have actually laid eyes or paws on Chance??? Well??
> 
> As far as I know not to many of you. AbbyK9 has but I haven't seen her post. The rest of you, not so much. And it doesn't matter if you had a dog that did this or a dog that did that-- GUESS WHAT?!? That isn't CHANCE!!! This is a different dog and Mrs K has to do and act how she feels and think is best for THIS dog. And since I have never gotten a beat-abuse-mistreat-neglect vibe from her and in fact she seems to REALLY know dogs and love them and care about them, I will trust her judgement. Seh is doing a wonderful thing for this old guy. And that is what he is A REALLY OLD GUY!! Who needs to be allowed to die WITH DIGNITY AND LOVE AND COMPASSION. This isn't about giving him a better quality of life so he can live another year or 2. GSDs don't live to be 16 or 17 so stop trying to convince her that is the road she should take. And stop trying to make her feel guilty for still wanting the best for her dogs at the same time.
> 
> Believe it or not people she is trying to do a good deed and apparently a few of you VERY judgmental types would rather that dog have been euthanized in that shelter while he was still dirty, matted stinky and unloved-- BECAUSE THAT WAS HIS ALTERNATIVE!!!!


no, not abbyk9, it was a common friend of ours who came out and helped to lift him out of the tub.


----------



## holland

Sorry didn't read the whole thread but what are you wanting her to do and if the dog was in rescue what would rescue do


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Jean and also Tbarrios post.

And I also would like to know if anyone else stepped up and said they would take him? 

I've dealt with dogs like this, it's a day to day thing. Some days are better than others, and believe me it's no picnic. Has anyone seen PAIGE on the other board? She couldn't get up (she's 14 I believe), she's got "wheels" and she is now on a mission and a very happy camper

People that take in fosters, do rescues, are absolutely amazing, and ones that wish to, need to see the whole picture when doing so..


----------



## Lilie

Tbarrios333 said:


> There is no reason to say "I'm so disappointed in this thread."
> There are snippets of valuable information from experienced people all over this thread; they are just ignored because of the defensiveness.


 
1st - Do not attempt to tell me how I feel regarding a thread. That dog just don't hunt. 

2nd - I am disappointed (which I believe is the correct quote) because we could be learning valuable information on how to care for a dog who is 15 years old and dying, and not on if the OP should have taken the dog in or not. What's done is done. 

Tell me how this insane bickering helps the dog TODAY!


----------



## Tbarrios333

DharmasMom said:


> You know what I see. a WHOLE lot of people here who want to judge a situation from behind their computer screens when they don't have the whole story. People want to jump on a rescue and condemn it (heck, I wouldn't give the name either) when I haven't seen one word that an evaluation was done by a rescue.


I clearly said people want the name NOT to 'slam/condemn/denounce/criticize' the rescue, but to get answers.

I don't want to stir any pots, but aren't you harshly judging the people that are critical of this situation?

The evals were linked towards the beginning, or rather the evals were copied onto Facebook, which were done at the shelter.


----------



## gsdraven

Lilie said:


> Tell me how this insane bickering helps the dog TODAY!


The bickering is helping the dog today because the bickering is from experienced people begging Mrs K to cool down and give the dog tomorrow. 



Mrs.K said:


> The vet said to give him a couple of more days and then based on his condition to either put him to sleep or to go from there and give him a little more time.





Mrs.K said:


> If I have to put him down in two days because he doesn't make any improvements than that is money that could have went to Judge.


This whole thread went in this direction because of these two quotes from Mrs K. 

EXPERIENCED people who have been there and done that are pleading with her to give the dog more time. If she is so great for saving this dog from being euthanized, than save the dog. Don't give the dog a bath and pat yourself on the back for saving him only to euthanize him two days later. Most of us on here take rescue much more seriously than that and commit ourselves to the dogs we take on or don't do it all.


----------



## Tbarrios333

Lilie said:


> 1st - Do not attempt to tell me how I feel regarding a thread. That dog just don't hunt.
> Tell me how this insane bickering helps the dog TODAY!


You were not the only one that was 'disheartened' by this thread. Everyone can feel what they want to.

The bickering may not help THIS dog, but it may help others that are reading this.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

holland said:


> Sorry didn't read the whole thread but what are you wanting her to do and if the dog was in rescue what would rescue do


I think that's a REALLY good question for anyone else who wants to answer as a person with experience. 

1. Age - I would be trying to get a better handle on age. Shelters bump up ages sometimes (not good, I don't agree with it) and people who are doing the aging are not always accurate. 

2. Senior blood panel. Let's see what's working, what isn't. 

3. Heartworm test/SNAP 4. 

4. Fecal float/uranalysis. 

Depending on those results, chest xrays may be a good idea. And yes, a rescue would do all of this if they made the decision to pull a medical case (which he would be - even if considered hospice or palliative). Hospice or palliative is comfort care - you do everything you would do for quality of life except try to cure. Then you would go from there. 

With the physical exam you want a good look at the eyes and mouth. You also pick a vet  that "gets" old dogs. 

Coat quality good? Thyroid considerations? Any chance of GI disorders? Does he need flea/tick coverage?

Based on all that you would go on with the leg issues, we would want to go check into a PT/chiro type place for an eval. Because if it's a back issue, that's important to know. 

Supplements would be started - double doses. 

Harness would be picked up - Ruffwear webmaster. Helps with mobility. 

Food - made into slurries and often starting a dog on a bland diet helps. Arby's is the ace to stimulate appetite. Not a lot, but just to get eating going. 

Comfort care ongoing. That kind of system helps to determine things methodically and well and keeps assessing the dog. 

Calendar - tossed away.


----------



## MatsiRed

Hi Mrs. K,

I just happened upon this thread, took note when I saw the age of the dog in the heading. 

First, I'd like to thank-you for offering Chance an opportunity to know love and kindness in the evening of his life, and to finally have someone in his corner who can advocate for his best interests. 

Like numerous others here, I've taken in many dogs like Chance. For me, the older the better. And often, I love a good challenge. In fact, Chance would be my dream dog. And might I add, he's impressively handsome! We are both truly blessed right now with ancient companions, who will always be wiser than ourselves, as I also currently share my home with a 15 year old. :wub:

Dogs like ours come with many challenges. I see people posting in your thread who very generously took the time to pass along creative advice for my seniors way back when, and so I'd like to take the time myself to pay it forward now for you and anyone else who may benefit.

************************************************************
First, Shermie Bear. Dixie dog. Fondly remembered as Wormie Bear. Arrived to me at 73 pounds. Hearworm and other parasites, severe allergies, weak. On the euthanasia list for advanced age and health condition. Later he would also challenge me with a herniated disc, and this is how we managed through that so he could still have quality of life:

Incontinent as you described with Chance. This is how we dealt with it. Wipable exercise mat, with washable incontinent pads.










As he continued healing, we made the best of our time together. Ruffwear harness: http://www.backcountrygear.com/cata...30&code=GF10&gclid=CJeJup6S2akCFULd4Aod7BHZKw










This harness allowed me to also protect him on staircases. His backend gave out all the time, and he was at high risk for falls.










Here he is walking. I also utilized the harness for getting in and out of the SUV, with a ramp, so our fun dogpark days could continue.










Three months later, with love, devotion, and a little bit of work on both ends...top weight 104 pounds.










A TON of work? Yes. Worth it? Shermie Bear said yes, when he climbed this staircase all by himself, up and down, and then later for a dip in the ocean with his dog friends.


----------



## Mrs.K

You just don't get it, do you? 

You really don't get it and you are still reading more into it than there is to it. I said IF (IF IF IF IF IF). Not that I will but IF I HAVE TO because he's so bad that we don't have a choice and everything else would be cruel. 

I am with the rescue on the same page, the vet is on the same page, I have the support of my vet, of the rescue and that is all that counts. 

I could care less of what anyone on here has to say. If you've got to bash somebody, bash somebody else. 

You have NOT seen the dog personally, you do NOT know anything about the dog other than what was posted on the internet which wasn't even true because the full extend of his condition was NEVER disclosed and even my vet said that she can't believe whats in that chart because it's NOT the same dog. 

The dog is NOT in the condition for a wheelchair, nor is he in a condition to make any major plans for his future. Every night I am going to bed wondering if he'll wake up in the morning and every day I am wondering if he'll have the strength to get up walking. Since his arthritis in the front legs is beyond everything I've ever seen in my life, we can't just put him into a wheelchair. 

I am so SICK of people on here. so SICK of this Forum. 

I need a break.


----------



## DharmasMom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> 1. No one knows how old this dog is.
> 2. DM is often misdiagnosed.
> 3. People were responding to:
> 
> BALANCE (if I may yell too?) is not saying someone is a hero, angel, or saint, nor are they evil and bad.
> 
> Balance is looking at the situation, pointing out some things that should be considered, offering informed opinions, and the person getting that information doesn't consider those responses heroic or evil.
> 
> In this situation, someone did something nice. But perhaps was not prepared in every way to see it through and when people offered information that would help to do things in a different way, things did not go well.
> 
> Debbi - don't you ever - say something like this to me or anyone else on this board again. You have no idea how many dogs have had awful, terrible deaths because people on this board were afraid to judge.



I am trying to figure out how to respond to this without getting banned. First of all, I will say what I want in the confines of the rules of the board, of course. This is not about your experiences with other dogs dying or your other experiences judging. This is about right here and right now. You are not judging some hoarder or animal abuser. Sandra takes VERY good care of her dogs and obviously loves then just as much as you love yours. She took this dog so he wouldn't die alone and scared in a shelter- which, again was what was going to happen. 

SHE is the one with the dog and the VET who has seen the dog has agreed with her. The dog is in bad shape. Now, is every dog that is in bad shape need to be euthanized?? No, I have a foster that is proof of that. She is elderly and is in pretty rough shape but I also had something to work with.
This dog:

1- is elderly (very elderly)
2- can't hardly walk
3- won't hardly eat
4- hardly has any teeth left
5- is incontinent
6- has vomited blood

Just one or two of these things does not equal a bad quality of life all of them together= pretty bad quality of life in my book. But again, I have not seen the dog. Neither has any one else here. I am going only by what she has told us.


----------



## Lilie

DharmasMom said:


> I am trying to figure out how to respond to this without getting banned. First of all, I will say what I want in the confines of the rules of the board, of course. This is not about your experiences with other dogs dying or your other experiences judging. This is about right here and right now. You are not judging some hoarder or animal abuser. Sandra takes VERY good care of her dogs and obviously loves then just as much as you love yours. She took this dog so he wouldn't die alone and scared in a shelter- which, again was what was going to happen.
> 
> SHE is the one with the dog and the VET who has seen the dog has agreed with her. The dog is in bad shape. Now, is every dog that is in bad shape need to be euthanized?? No, I have a foster that is proof of that. She is elderly and is in pretty rough shape but I also had something to work with.
> This dog:
> 
> 1- is elderly (very elderly)
> 2- can't hardly walk
> 3- won't hardly eat
> 4- hardly has any teeth left
> 5- is incontinent
> 6- has vomited blood
> 
> Just one or two of these things does not equal a bad quality of life all of them together= pretty bad quality of life in my book. But again, I have not seen the dog. Neither has any one else here. I am going only by what she has told us.


Great post!


----------



## Tbarrios333

Jean's and MatsiRed thanks for your helpful posts. This is how we can help the dog TODAY.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

And what everyone with experience is saying is that this is after only a few days. And so it is not necessarily the dog that is. It could be his very best, it could be adjustment. But what I believe we are saying is just to give him time, diagnostics, care that will help to say is this a snapshot or is this the whole story of this dog (in the figurative).

ETA - beautiful - literal - snapshots of a senior, Donna.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Well the rescue folks who are "trying to educate Mrs. K" could obviously do a much better job. So perhaps they could pay to fly the dog to their homes, have a battery of tests run, determine the true age then take care of Chance for life and we all could go on to other things. 

I believe strongly in rescue but I'm not sure the goal is (regardless of cost) to simply squeeze every last second of life out of a dying animal. For me it is quality of life not quantity and that goes for myself.


----------



## Mrs.K

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> And what everyone with experience is saying is that this is after only a few days. And so it is not necessarily the dog that is. It could be his very best, it could be adjustment. But what I believe we are saying is just to give him time, diagnostics, care that will help to say is this a snapshot or is this the whole story of this dog (in the figurative).


Actually I am not even going to read what you or anyone else is saying anymore... I don't care. I do what I think is best for the dog with the guidance of my rescue and the vet. If his time is up tomorrow, it is up tomorrow. If he gets through the week, he gets through the week. If we can get him through the month, we'll get him through the month but if I see that his quality of life is not given, I will put him to sleep. Whether tomorrow or next week is up to me and nobody can change that. 

Not you, not anybody else. 

Do you really think I am taking advise from somebody whose overall attitude screams holier than thou and is judgmental, literally accused me of lying because what I have in my hands doesn't match what the hellhole in Manhattan put out? 

I don't care about your experience, I don't care what you have to say, as of this day I could care less. 

Good day!


----------



## DharmasMom

Hunter Jack said:


> Well the rescue folks who are "trying to educate Mrs. K" could obviously do a much better job. So perhaps they could pay to fly the dog to their homes, have a battery of tests run, determine the true age then take care of Chance for life and we all could go on to other things.
> 
> I believe strongly in rescue but I'm not sure the goal is (regardless of cost) to simply squeeze every last second of life out of a dying animal. For me it is quality of life not quantity and that goes for myself.



Amen!


----------



## RunShepherdRun

Tbarrios333 said:


> If EXPERIENCED (Jean, Elsa, Jax) rescue people are perturbed and are offering valid advice, take it. I don't see how most of these posts are an attack on the OP. I really don't. It is for the DOGS and that should be remembered; they are the priority because they do not have a voice.
> The OP doesn't need a knight in shining armor; if anything, she needs some advice on how to care for a dog in this condition from people that have done this before.


Yes! Rescue takes humility. It takes learning. It helps the dog if the rescuer is willing and able to learn. 



Tbarrios333 said:


> Moreover, the rescue's report conflicts severely with the story we are getting here. In the end it comes down to 'who do I believe?.' ...
> If I must really let you know why some are curious about the name it is not because they want to slam the rescue, it's because some like to call and try to figure out what is happening.


Per the FB link posted https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater, this dog does not come from a rescue. He comes directly from New York Animal Care & Control ( AC&C ) - the largest pet adoption organization in New York City. Dogs, cats, puppies, kittens and rabbits available for adoption in NYC, Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx and Staten Island., Manhattan shelter, the large, underfunded, open admission agency that contracts with the Health Dept. of NYC to impound the city's strays. I have myself been to this shelter.

The impounded animals are seen routinely by a veterinarian after intake. *These veterinarian reports have never been suspected of sugar coating an animal's medical condition, if anything it's quite the contrary.* This agency, like so many open intake facilities, ends the lives of many many animals every day, and as a health reason kennel cough suffices. 

The FB page Urgent PART 2 - Wall | Facebook is run by volunteers who receive the shelter's daily list of animals 'To Be Destroyed' the next day. They post the file that the shelter provides about each animal, incl. the results of the vet exam(s). The FB group 'Urgent Part 2' is a forum but not a rescue. 

If anyone would like to know more about NY Animal Care and Control and its many problems: Shelter Reform HOME


----------



## DharmasMom

Congratulations to everyone on here who managed to browbeat a woman who just wanted to keep a sick and elderly dog from dying alone in a shelter. Thumbs up to all of you and good job!!


----------



## wildo

If ever there was a thread for the popcorn emoticon, this is one. I have literally just read the entire thread. The split in perspective here is crazy! Wow... totally crazy! It's crazy to see the two sides so separated from each other on their own opinions. Mostly, I'm commenting just to subscribe to the thread and continue to read the drama.

*[EDIT]*- I wanted to add: Mrs K., You've done something I'd never be able to do. You've sure taken on a really tough case here! I commend you for being willing to do so; it takes some huge balls to be willing to do that!


----------



## RunShepherdRun

RunShepherdRun said:


> Yes! Rescue takes humility. It takes learning. It helps the dog if the rescuer is willing and able to learn.


PS I might want to add that after 40 years of training and many years of rescue, including special needs and geriatric fosters, each dog still teaches me. So do my colleagues and friends in rescue. Never wrong to ask a question, always good to share what you are doing to help a dog while asking others for suggestions based on their knowledge and experience. It's not about showing what we think we know, not about defending what we do, not about wanting to look good in the eyes of others, it's about putting our knowledge together to help a dog. And beyond good intentions, it takes knowledge and experience, if not one's own than that of other who do, to help a special needs dog.


----------



## Lilie

Tbarrios333 said:


> Jean's and MatsiRed thanks for your helpful posts. This is how we can help the dog TODAY.


Yes, I agree. The OP has left the forum. It truly helped TODAY.


----------



## LaRen616

Large Dog Wheel Chair

Another wheelchair

http://elmira.craigslist.org/for/2421761398.html


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## Tbarrios333

Lilie said:


> Yes, I agree. The OP has left the forum. It truly helped TODAY.


Then I feel sorry for Chance, not the OP.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

DharmasMom said:


> Congratulations to everyone on here who managed to browbeat a woman who just wanted to keep a sick and elderly dog from dying alone in a shelter. Thumbs up to all of you and good job!!


Just a point of logic (which I think wildo may be the two sides boiled down - logic and emotion) that people are free to choose what they do, regardless of what people say or how they perceive it, and this was her choice to walk away.


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## DharmasMom

LaRen616 said:


> Large Dog Wheel Chair
> 
> Another wheelchair
> 
> Dog Wheel Chair



That's terrific LaRen, except Chance's arthritis is so bad in his front legs he can't support himself in a WC, has Mrs K stated several times. But thanks for posting that anyway.


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## DharmasMom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Just a point of logic (which I think wildo may be the two sides boiled down - logic and emotion) that people are free to choose what they do, regardless of what people say or how they perceive it, and this was her choice to walk away.



Which side would you say is logic and which would you say is emotion?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think going through a system of evaluating the dog, trying to gather information, trying to determine what is the cause of the discrepancies between what the shelter reported and what is currently being seen (ex - is the dog on a NSAID now - that can cause bloody vomit - was bloodwork done before the NSAID was prescribed, is there a tick disease that's there that is causing this weakness) I think those are all logical things to do, as well as giving time to fully see what the situation is with the dog. Is this the dog that is, or, like you look at Shermie, is there another dog in there. I think you got guidance from some of us (I thought) in doing that with your Tessa. Taking that time, using those systems learned from seeing many other dogs that appeared to be on death's door and then kaboom! are completely different in a month.

We all want it to be that way for him. But he needs time to determine that. My very own dog looked to be on his way to paralysis and PTS. But then I remembered what I was like when I hurt my back. So I did the crate rest, metacam, and in less than a month, he was back to himself. There were some seniors on this board a while back who came back more times than we could imagine: Sherman, Chama, Indy, many others and had great quality of life, and were supported by a ton of people offering ideas and help. That information was taken gratefully, maybe not all of it used, but it helped. 

I don't know. People do this all the time and their dogs are helped by getting solid information.


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## Lilie

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think going through a system of evaluating the dog, trying to gather information, trying to determine what is the cause of the discrepancies between what the shelter reported and what is currently being seen (ex - is the dog on a NSAID now - that can cause bloody vomit - was bloodwork done before the NSAID was prescribed, is there a tick disease that's there that is causing this weakness) I think those are all logical things to do, as well as giving time to fully see what the situation is with the dog. Is this the dog that is, or, like you look at Shermie, is there another dog in there. I think you got guidance from some of us (I thought) in doing that with your Tessa. Taking that time, using those systems learned from seeing many other dogs that appeared to be on death's door and then kaboom! are completely different in a month.
> 
> We all want it to be that way for him. But he needs time to determine that. My very own dog looked to be on his way to paralysis and PTS. But then I remembered what I was like when I hurt my back. So I did the crate rest, metacam, and in less than a month, he was back to himself. There were some seniors on this board a while back who came back more times than we could imagine: Sherman, Chama, Indy, many others and had great quality of life, and were supported by a ton of people offering ideas and help. That information was taken gratefully, maybe not all of it used, but it helped.
> 
> I* don't know. People do this all the time and their dogs are helped by getting solid information*.


Great post!


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## asja

DharmasMom said:


> That's terrific LaRen, except Chance's arthritis is so bad in his front legs he can't support himself in a WC, has Mrs K stated several times. But thanks for posting that anyway.


I had a three-legged German Shepherd that lived to 13.5. The last two months of her life, she couldn't walk much farther than the food bowl, and her remaining front leg wasn't strong enough for a wheelchair. My husband bought a garden cart at Lowe's, and we took her for rides around the neighborhood. She loved it! She would get so excited to see the cart, and she she sat in that cart like a queen! 

She was a fabulous dog. She died one morning in her sleep. 

Asja on her cart.









My other older dog Boris stopped eating several days before he died. When he tried to drink water but vomited it up instead, I knew his body was shutting down. He died the next day.


Forgot to add, I adopted a dog from a shelter in April. The shelter people estimated his age at 4-5. But once cleaned up and examined, my vet and I thought he is more likely 2-3. Now that he is through heartworm treatment and obviously feeling much better, I really think he is closer to 2. 

My point is that shelter people can be wrong, and a poor appearance can lead to the assumption that a dog is older than he really is.


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## Tbarrios333

asja said:


> I had a three-legged German Shepherd that lived to 13.5. The last two months of her life, she couldn't walk much farther than the food bowl, and her remaining front leg wasn't strong enough for a wheelchair. My husband bought a garden cart at Lowe's, and we took her for rides around the neighborhood. She loved it! She would get so excited to see the cart, and she she sat in that cart like a queen!
> 
> She was a fabulous dog. She died one morning in her sleep.
> 
> Asja on her cart.


If this isn't the more adorable story I've ever read, I don't know what is :wub: RIP fabulous Asja.


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## JakodaCD OA

asja , great pic and post

I again agree with Jean's post. I hope thru this entire 13 pages of discussion, Mrs K will take the good advice and suggestions from the people who have been there done that in order to, in the end help Chance,. Disregard the negative, and take out of it what will help him whether it's his time to go or not.

It should be about the dog


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## DharmasMom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think going through a system of evaluating the dog, trying to gather information, trying to determine what is the cause of the discrepancies between what the shelter reported and what is currently being seen (ex - is the dog on a NSAID now - that can cause bloody vomit - was bloodwork done before the NSAID was prescribed, is there a tick disease that's there that is causing this weakness) I think those are all logical things to do, as well as giving time to fully see what the situation is with the dog. Is this the dog that is, or, like you look at Shermie, is there another dog in there. I think you got guidance from some of us (I thought) in doing that with your Tessa. Taking that time, using those systems learned from seeing many other dogs that appeared to be on death's door and then kaboom! are completely different in a month.
> 
> We all want it to be that way for him. But he needs time to determine that. My very own dog looked to be on his way to paralysis and PTS. But then I remembered what I was like when I hurt my back. So I did the crate rest, metacam, and in less than a month, he was back to himself. There were some seniors on this board a while back who came back more times than we could imagine: Sherman, Chama, Indy, many others and had great quality of life, and were supported by a ton of people offering ideas and help. That information was taken gratefully, maybe not all of it used, but it helped.
> 
> I don't know. People do this all the time and their dogs are helped by getting solid information.



And I would agree with you IF the dog were younger, If he didn't have multiple, multiple issues. But is it fair to an elderly dog to start poking, prodding, sedating, xraying, medicating, and doing all kinds of other things to when in the end you are only prolonging the inevitable. We have not seen the dog but from what Sandra says he is MUCH worse than most of us usually get. Tessa was bad but not THAT bad. I had something I could work with. And while she probably only has a year or so left at least I could give her that. But really at what point do you say "enough" and just give lots of love and allow them to go. Not every dog can be saved and not every dog needs every last minute squeezed out of him. Sometimes dignity is better. Especially if he is as bad as she says. She is going to give him some time but if he needs to go to the bridge then she will send him there and at least his last days were happy, safe and loved.

This seriously reminds me of when I was in the ICU. We had a 98 year old woman come in her diagnosis was "failure to thrive". I remember thinking- "well when you are 98, you are allowed to fail" but apparently the docs and her family didn't feel that way. They took her to surgery, removed half of her colon, put her on life support, started lots of IV drips, and kept her alive for a week. She finally arrested on morning and we pounded on her chest in an attempt to resuscitate her. It was horrible. She should have been allowed to pas peacefully away with her family surrounding her. What were we saving her for? So she could live to be 99? 100? Stupid. We all die, it is a fact of life and how we do it is so much more important than when. I would rather go feeling safe, loved and surrounded by family than to squeeze an extra couple of months out of my life and die in a cold sterile hospital surrounded by people who don't care. 

Chance has already been rescued. He won't die alone in that shelter. If he continues to deteriorate why put him through more vet visits and painful tests? Let him have peace. To me that is the logical way to go. I guess it all depends on how you view life and death really.


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## JakodaCD OA

debbi, a senior blood panel could tell an awful lot without doing a bunch of other tests, just sayin.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oh - no sedation!  Just a good thorough idea of what is going on. 

The problem with just saying okay, is that you don't know what is there so soon after getting a dog out of a shelter. Has Tessa changed (many times!) since you've gotten her? And did you react to those changes? Probably so. So what we are seeing here is the dog in a snapshot. And we are saying let's look at the whole video. 

So that there is context. Because we don't know what the real dog is yet and can't know that based on a few days. Could he be at the end? He could. Could he be better than that? He could! 

Those things that I listed are many of the things we do with our dogs at a yearly wellness visit and aren't intrusive, invasive, etc. Let's give him a chance (no pun) to see what he has to say. Is he having fun, like Asja, despite his circumstances (that is the best picture and story!) or no? There is even a quality of life scale that can be used over a period of time to help - it's in the preparing to say goodbye section. 

But in all of our experiences, the first two weeks out of a shelter is typically not the dog that we see at four weeks. Are there dogs at the other end - yes, but typically that is not the case. And we are hoping that he is typical and has the opportunity to show his stuff.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

Tbarrios333 said:


> If this isn't the more adorable story I've ever read, I don't know what is :wub: RIP fabulous Asja.


That is so sweet, and such a beautiful girl....... RIP....:wub:


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## Myamom

But all people are saying is...what are the issues exactly? How do we know he has dm? do we even know he is really 15? They are advocating for a good work up...definitive diagnosis and prognosis...trying some things...that's all! Talking about euth as soon as the dog arrives is what upset people. Pulling a dog and not being prepared or able to spend money is what upset people. There is always the possibility of medical care that can help. Warning others not to do the same and think it through first is ok. And anyone that said we are advocating quantity vs. quality doesn't understand how reputable rescue works...or what is going on every day in many foster homes...like Jean's, Matsired's...etc. 
I hope the OP decides to follow the wonderful advice given here...by those that have been there done that and continue to do that. I know Cheyenne and I could have never come so far if it had not been for them!


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## wildo

DharmasMom said:


> And I would agree with you IF the dog were younger, If he didn't have multiple, multiple issues. But is it fair to an elderly dog to start poking, prodding, sedating, xraying, medicating, and doing all kinds of other things to when in the end you are only prolonging the inevitable. We have not seen the dog but from what Sandra says he is MUCH worse than most of us usually get. Tessa was bad but not THAT bad. I had something I could work with. And while she probably only has a year or so left at least I could give her that. But really at what point do you say "enough" and just give lots of love and allow them to go. Not every dog can be saved and not every dog needs every last minute squeezed out of him. Sometimes dignity is better. Especially if he is as bad as she says. She is going to give him some time but if he needs to go to the bridge then she will send him there and at least his last days were happy, safe and loved.
> 
> This seriously reminds me of when I was in the ICU. We had a 98 year old woman come in her diagnosis was "failure to thrive". I remember thinking- "well when you are 98, you are allowed to fail" but apparently the docs and her family didn't feel that way. They took her to surgery, removed half of her colon, put her on life support, started lots of IV drips, and kept her alive for a week. She finally arrested on morning and we pounded on her chest in an attempt to resuscitate her. It was horrible. She should have been allowed to pas peacefully away with her family surrounding her. What were we saving her for? So she could live to be 99? 100? Stupid. We all die, it is a fact of life and how we do it is so much more important than when. I would rather go feeling safe, loved and surrounded by family than to squeeze an extra couple of months out of my life and die in a cold sterile hospital surrounded by people who don't care.
> 
> Chance has already been rescued. He won't die alone in that shelter. If he continues to deteriorate why put him through more vet visits and painful tests? Let him have peace. To me that is the logical way to go. I guess it all depends on how you view life and death really.


It really irks me when people send PMs saying "wow- I really agree with what you wrote!" but don't have the balls to share that opinion with everyone else. I wanted to say that I find a lot of truth in this post, and side with *the logic* in this post. 

I can't stand even _thinking_ about my own dog passing away. Even thinking of other dogs moving on makes me uncomfortable. Everybody thinks the movie "Marley and Me" was so good- but I hated it. Makes me think about death and my dog dying, and how destroyed I will be when that time comes. But, the *fact* is that every living thing eventually dies; my _opinion_ is that doing so with dignity sure seems like a great way to go.


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## Mac's Mom

Its too bad this got so out of control...all I want to updates on the dog


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## DharmasMom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Oh - no sedation!  Just a good thorough idea of what is going on.
> 
> The problem with just saying okay, is that you don't know what is there so soon after getting a dog out of a shelter. Has Tessa changed (many times!) since you've gotten her? And did you react to those changes? Probably so. So what we are seeing here is the dog in a snapshot. And we are saying let's look at the whole video.
> 
> So that there is context. Because we don't know what the real dog is yet and can't know that based on a few days. Could he be at the end? He could. Could he be better than that? He could!
> 
> Those things that I listed are many of the things we do with our dogs at a yearly wellness visit and aren't intrusive, invasive, etc. Let's give him a chance (no pun) to see what he has to say. Is he having fun, like Asja, despite his circumstances (that is the best picture and story!) or no? There is even a quality of life scale that can be used over a period of time to help - it's in the preparing to say goodbye section.
> 
> But in all of our experiences, the first two weeks out of a shelter is typically not the dog that we see at four weeks. Are there dogs at the other end - yes, but typically that is not the case. And we are hoping that he is typical and has the opportunity to show his stuff.



Blood work sounds easy. Except Tessa usually gets stuck at least 4 times before they can find a vein on her. (But we don't know if they drew Chance's blood or not.) I actually don't let them draw blood on Tessa now unless it is absolutely necessary it is such a painful process for her. 

Xrays mean sedation, that means anesthesia. For Tessa this means at least 2 days of vomiting and then 4 days to recover- I don't know about you but I consider that PAINFUL. I don't take anything with sedation lightly in an old dog. Her sinus surgery took almost 2 weeks to recover from. 

Those tests you are suggesting ARE painful. And again, none of us have seen this dog. If this dog is really this bad, I don't think it is necessarily fair to him to put him through all of that just to have it end the same anyway. So everyone here can feel better about the decision??


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## GSDElsa

DharmasMom said:


> This seriously reminds me of when I was in the ICU. We had a 98 year old woman come in her diagnosis was "failure to thrive". I remember thinking- "well when you are 98, you are allowed to fail" but apparently the docs and her family didn't feel that way. They took her to surgery, removed half of her colon, put her on life support, started lots of IV drips, and kept her alive for a week. She finally arrested on morning and we pounded on her chest in an attempt to resuscitate her. It was horrible. She should have been allowed to pas peacefully away with her family surrounding her. What were we saving her for? So she could live to be 99? 100? Stupid. We all die, it is a fact of life and how we do it is so much more important than when. I would rather go feeling safe, loved and surrounded by family than to squeeze an extra couple of months out of my life and die in a cold sterile hospital surrounded by people who don't care.
> 
> Chance has already been rescued. He won't die alone in that shelter. If he continues to deteriorate why put him through more vet visits and painful tests? Let him have peace. To me that is the logical way to go. I guess it all depends on how you view life and death really.


That's actually a pretty bad analogy. A more accurate comparison between the two would be a 98 year old woman coming into the ICU for being sore, stiff, throwing up from medication, feeling like crap from some kind of traumatic experience and the Dr's saying "well, you are 98 years old....we're just gonna let you sit in this bed suffering for a few days before we do anything....cause you are close to the end after all."

No, you'd do a few exams. Do some bloodwork. Try to find the cause. Do some treatments......trobleshoot a little.

That is all anyone is asking in this instance. No one is saying to have a $4000 surgery or put him in an induced coma to get an extra week out of him. People are just saying an old, ill dog 2 days out of a shelter and a long, long car ride might not be the same dog after 2 weeks in foster care and some basic bloodwork.

People are -- repeatedly -- reading more into the posts than they should be and putting words on peoples' screens.


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## Mrs.K

*FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! 

WE DID GO TO THE VET!
HE DID HAVE AN EXAM!
HE IS UNDERGOING TREATMENT!
HE IS GETTING MEDICATION!

I AM NOT SITTING BACK WATCHING HIM DIE!!!!!!


You really have a way to twist everything that has been said on this topic by me. *


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## MatsiRed

Next example on creative interventions, Nannie Millie. Estimated age at shelter adoption, 14yo. Very feeble, thought to have Degenerative Myelopathy (human equivalent to Multiple Sclerosis?). 

Dogs like her can be physically challenging, emotionally draining, and labor and time intensive. But, because I had the resources, the drive, lots of experience with sick humans, and tons of support including from many devoted forum members here, I pushed on, both for the sake of Millie, and to meet my own needs of attachment to her. But I also recognize that not everyone has the resources to care for a dog like her, and so everyone needs to draw their own line, based on their own beliefs, in terms of what is fair and reasonable in their own situations. In my experience and research, I have found many draw the line at incontinence. For others, it's the inability to physically care for a heavy dog.

I do have one firm belief with all the dogs I take in. There needs to be an impartial party involved in making the 'big' decisions, perhaps someone who shares similar philosophies. For me, this involves my rescue associates. Because, when it gets too overwhelming and euthanasia seems like a viable option, or you've become too attached and you can't let go when you should, as intensive caretakers, I think we become too close to the situation to make rational decisions. 

In the end, I asked a board member to spend the night with Millie, to help take care of her, and to help me transition to the idea that perhaps the time had come to say good-bye. We both seemed to get to that point at the same time. Talking things out was very important, with Millie present.

It seems like Mrs. K has enlisted impartial, trustworthy eyes on the situation? So at this point, the only way I feel I could help is, like others here, is to pass along some concrete ideas to help transition Chance from a debilitated old throwaway dog to a comfortable happy dog who is loved, cherished, and well taken care of. I think the point of starting the thread was to ask for help to do that? Not sure. If not, forgive me if I've overstepped my bounds.

***********************************************************
I'll let the photos speak for themselves. She lived a very full and active life with DM for 18 months.



























































































































Thanks for providing comfort and security for an old dog like me!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

DharmasMom said:


> Blood work sounds easy. Except Tessa usually gets stuck at least 4 times before they can find a vein on her. (But we don't know if they drew Chance's blood or not.) I actually don't let them draw blood on Tessa now unless it is absolutely necessary it is such a painful process for her.
> 
> Xrays mean sedation, that means anesthesia. For Tessa this means at least 2 days of vomiting and then 4 days to recover- I don't know about you but I consider that PAINFUL. I don't take anything with sedation lightly in an old dog. Her sinus surgery took almost 2 weeks to recover from.
> 
> Those tests you are suggesting ARE painful. And again, none of us have seen this dog. If this dog is really this bad, I don't think it is necessarily fair to him to put him through all of that just to have it end the same anyway. So everyone here can feel better about the decision??


I think a ways back I put that I look for a vet that "gets" old dogs. We just did a chest x-ray for HW staging and did not sedate my foster. Were they supposed to - probably yes, but they aren't going to sedate an old dog for a two minute xray. So that's part of what you can do if you can! 

I get bloodwork done on myself quarterly - I am not sure that a dog feels it more than I do, but watching the way they play and bite and wrestle, I am going to guess that they don't. Four times to find a vein is not great, but the information that you can get is pretty important. 

She had sinus surgery which is pretty great that you and the rescue did it. Some would have maybe said that was it? No need for that and it was her time. I would have done what you did too. 

Again, the typical - we are hoping he is the typical. 

GSDElsa- that makes sense. 

There is a facebook listing for people looking for updates, I would take a look there maybe?

Millie! :wub:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Mrs.K said:


> *FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!
> 
> WE DID GO TO THE VET!
> HE DID HAVE AN EXAM!
> HE IS UNDERGOING TREATMENT!
> HE IS GETTING MEDICATION!
> 
> I AM NOT SITTING BACK WATCHING HIM DIE!!!!!!
> 
> 
> You really have a way to twist everything that has been said on this topic by me. *


And people are continuing the discussion. Whether or not you choose to take the information that is being put out there we cannot control. Nor is the way in which you perceive it. I cannot possibly predict how to message this information in a way that it can be taken. 

But - this is one thing I noticed - he's on a NSAID? Was he on a NSAID at the shelter? Was he on a steroid? Is he on a steroid? There is a washout time needed for them. NSAIDs are known for causing bleeds. There is a great FDA brochure about it: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/UCM117773.pdf

These are the things that we are just trying to get to you to help him.


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## DharmasMom

I think you need to look at it this way too- the financial costs to the rescue. I felt TERRIBLE guilt over Tessa's sinus surgery. It cost 2 grand. Tessa is not adoptable. She will be with me until she dies because of all of her issues. That 2 grand, with her age and issues, took away from a young dog that COULD be saved. That bothered me. 

How far do you go for an old dog like Chance? He can't be adopted. Okay. Say he can be treated but it is going to cost. Quit a bit. Mrs K can't afford it but the rescue will pay. No shame in that. VGSR covers Tessa's bills. Is it fair to take away from another younger dog that you CAN save and adopt out?? I struggle with this whenever Tessa needs something. I pay for supplements myself. I buy her food, crate, collars and leashes. They pay for the Previcoxx but they can get it cheaper. These old, sick unadoptable dogs take away from young, healthy, dogs that can find homes. And that isn't fair. A lot of rescues WON'T even take these old dogs just for that reason. Is it fair to ask them to pay and pay. Especially if he has major problems that need treating. Where do you suggest the line be drawn?


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## Mac's Mom

MatsiRed - You're inspiring.


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## Myamom

As far as I know...this was an adoption...it is not a foster through a rescue situation.

If it were...they would be in charge of all treatment and finances...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I don't have a suggestion - that is a struggle for each and every dog. You cannot put a price on a life, and you can't not put a price on a life. 

Tessa may still be adoptable-there is a woman in Delaware looking for an old black GSD that I know of so there must be others (PM me and I can try to link you if DE is close enough). If not, she has her forever home and that is something that again, cannot be measured. It is priceless and appreciated. 

The surgery was expensive, she was old, but there was something there that made that price one that "the market" could bear. I don't know - like I said, I would have done the same thing. I also work to fundraise like crazy! More than happy to give out some of our better fundraisers.


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## DharmasMom

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I don't have a suggestion - that is a struggle for each and every dog. You cannot put a price on a life, and you can't not put a price on a life.
> 
> Tessa may still be adoptable-there is a woman in Delaware looking for an old black GSD that I know of so there must be others (PM me and I can try to link you if DE is close enough). If not, she has her forever home and that is something that again, cannot be measured. It is priceless and appreciated.
> 
> The surgery was expensive, she was old, but there was something there that made that price one that "the market" could bear. I don't know - like I said, I would have done the same thing. I also work to fundraise like crazy! More than happy to give out some of our better fundraisers.



I appreciate it but even the vet has said she can't be adopted. She has severe separation anxiety and can't be left alone but she will bully other dogs. If she starts to feel bad she becomes aggressive- that is normally the first sign I have that she is sick. Her hips are bad and getting worse and if she gets too wound up her nose bleeds- they never have found a good answer for that- I just do what I can to keep her reasonable calm. The last couple of weeks she has had bouts of incontinence. 

As much as we would like to take finances out of the equation, we can't. The reason I won't formally adopt Tessa is I can't afford her bills. She will stay a permanent foster until closer to the end. I will adopt her closer to the end and then she will go to the bridge as a full member of my family. But the rescue and I are on board that there will be no heroic efforts for her either. Diagnostic only, if something is EASILY treatable it will be if not then she will be kept comfortable for as long as possible. 

People with old, sick dogs HAVE to take money into consideration and even rescues do. When you give to one you take from another. As much as it sucks, you do have to play God sometimes.


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## Lilie

MatsiRed - that was a great post.


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## Mac's Mom

Lilie said:


> MatsiRed - that was a great post.


I agree. The two posts actually choked me up a bit...just the dedication alone is touching. Plus the excellent information and ideas. We can all benefit.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I don't have a suggestion - that is a struggle for each and every dog. You cannot put a price on a life, and you can't not put a price on a life.


Debbi I think we are agreeing. 

Rescue Stories & Where are they now? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
You can read more rescue stories in this section - Shermie's story is right up at the top. Hope you have some time!


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## Tbarrios333

MatsiRed your commitment is inspiring. I hope that when my dogs are "old throw aways" that I can be as dedicated.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

wildo said:


> It really irks me when people send PMs saying "wow- I really agree with what you wrote!" but don't have the balls to share that opinion with everyone else. I wanted to say that I find a lot of truth in this post, and side with *the logic* in this post.
> 
> I can't stand even _thinking_ about my own dog passing away. Even thinking of other dogs moving on makes me uncomfortable. Everybody thinks the movie "Marley and Me" was so good- but I hated it. Makes me think about death and my dog dying, and how destroyed I will be when that time comes. But, the *fact* is that every living thing eventually dies; my _opinion_ is that doing so with dignity sure seems like a great way to go.


 
I have "Marley and me" on dvd I watched it once, Whoooaaa never ever again...........! I cried uncontrolably and sobbed so much that it hurt....!


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## Tbarrios333

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> I have "Marley and me" on dvd I watched it once, Whoooaaa never ever again...........! I cried uncontrolably and sobbed so much that it hurt....!


You're not kidding! 
I was up in Montana for Xmas 2008 and SO's parents wanted to go to the movies with about 4 other friends. It was me, SO, SO's sister, his parents, and 4 others.
Of course, they decided to go watch the "cute" dog movie. Horrible!
Imagine my embarrassment when I was super snotty and bawling my eyes out the entire movie around all these people. I was trying so hard to not make any noise. That was 1 1/2 hours of pure torture!
I guess I should mention that crying in front of others is something I never do!


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## wildo

Tbarrios333 said:


> That was 1 1/2 hours of pure torture!


:rofl: Wow, I guess it wasn't just me! That movie must be fantastic... _for people who don't own dogs!!!_


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

It was so sad, imagine children waking up on xmas morning and openning it up for there xmas present........ I would have been so dissapointed that it made me cry on xmas day.... 

I am never watching it ever again, anyone want my dvd...? My fiancee bought it for me he watched it with me, and that is the first time I ever saw him welling up..!


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## Jack's Dad

Well everyone is trying to make nice now and that is great but the OP got fairly well ripped on at the beginnings of this thread. 

Had she evaluated the situation well enough before she took Chance did she do this or that. Why did her story not match what others said and then what about her finances. I would guess right now she wishes she either did not adopt or for sure not post what was going on for her. There was a lot of good suggestions but I think if some go back and look at the beginnings of the thread it will show that it was not all "just being nice and sharing expertise".


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## Mac's Mom

CLARKE-DUNCAN said:


> I have "Marley and me" on dvd I watched it once, Whoooaaa never ever again...........! I cried uncontrolably and sobbed so much that it hurt....!


We watched that for the first time last night. My husband cried. Of course so did I but I cry over everything so it wasn't profound

...didn't want to derail but eh this thread is so off track whats the difference at this point


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## Tbarrios333

Most people here respect each other. Just because they disagree on something such as this does not mean that they hold negative feelings toward that person. (At least not on my part)
Rescue, old dogs, PTS, these are all hot buttons and it is perfectly acceptable to disagree. If anything, the different view points can really help everyone grow. I don't like to think of it as "making nice" because that's not what's going on.
Everyone has disagreements and there is a lot of backstory to the resentment you saw towards the beginning of the thread.


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

Mac's Mom said:


> We watched that for the first time last night. My husband cried. Of course so did I but I cry over everything so it wasn't profound
> 
> ...didn't want to derail but eh this thread is so off track whats the difference at this point


 
Yeah my fiancee, was almost in tears, he had them in his eye's you can't but help think of your own dog/dogs at the end of this movie... 

Has anyone seen Hatchi with richard geer in it...? What is that movie like.? Looks really sweet, but I dare not start watching it incase it is like Marley and me.....!


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## sagelfn

Here is the thread on that Richard Geere movie http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/124495-hachiko-dogs-tale.html


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## CLARKE-DUNCAN

sagelfn said:


> Here is the thread on that Richard Geere movie http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/124495-hachiko-dogs-tale.html


 
Hey thanks for finding that thread for me, guess i will be dodging that movie then.........!


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## BowWowMeow

I suggest not using this thread to chat about a movie since we're talking about a senior dog with multiple health issues. 

There is some great advice in this thread from people who have taken on seniors with major health issues. I hope the OP can ignore what she doesn't find helpful and concentrate on posts from people who have fostered or adopted a senior with health problems.


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## vat

I have learned one thing today after coming back to try and get an update on Chance. If I ever rescue I will not come here for advice! While I see allot of great advice there were to many posts at the start that went for the jugular. I think the advice could have been given in a much better way, JMO. I hope lessons have been learned from this post.

I hope Chance is doing well today Mrs K.


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## Snickelfritz

MASTI MASTI MASTI!!!!!!!!!! I'm so so glad to "see" you again!!!!!! I know you don't know me, and I don't "know" you but you are an ANGEL in my eyes! I think about you from time to time and wonder how your eyes are doing and how all your seniors are. Thank you for taking time to post!!! No I'm not crazy! LOL:hug::hug::hug::hug:



MatsiRed said:


> Hi Mrs. K,
> 
> I just happened upon this thread, took note when I saw the age of the dog in the heading.
> 
> First, I'd like to thank-you for offering Chance an opportunity to know love and kindness in the evening of his life, and to finally have someone in his corner who can advocate for his best interests.
> 
> Like numerous others here, I've taken in many dogs like Chance. For me, the older the better. And often, I love a good challenge. In fact, Chance would be my dream dog. And might I add, he's impressively handsome! We are both truly blessed right now with ancient companions, who will always be wiser than ourselves, as I also currently share my home with a 15 year old. :wub:
> 
> Dogs like ours come with many challenges. I see people posting in your thread who very generously took the time to pass along creative advice for my seniors way back when, and so I'd like to take the time myself to pay it forward now for you and anyone else who may benefit.
> 
> ************************************************************
> First, Shermie Bear. Dixie dog. Fondly remembered as Wormie Bear. Arrived to me at 73 pounds. Hearworm and other parasites, severe allergies, weak. On the euthanasia list for advanced age and health condition. Later he would also challenge me with a herniated disc, and this is how we managed through that so he could still have quality of life:
> 
> Incontinent as you described with Chance. This is how we dealt with it. Wipable exercise mat, with washable incontinent pads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As he continued healing, we made the best of our time together. Ruffwear harness: Web Master Harness by Ruff Wear and other Dog Gear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This harness allowed me to also protect him on staircases. His backend gave out all the time, and he was at high risk for falls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here he is walking. I also utilized the harness for getting in and out of the SUV, with a ramp, so our fun dogpark days could continue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three months later, with love, devotion, and a little bit of work on both ends...top weight 104 pounds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A TON of work? Yes. Worth it? Shermie Bear said yes, when he climbed this staircase all by himself, up and down, and then later for a dip in the ocean with his dog friends.


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## codmaster

WOW! What a story!


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## KZoppa

vat said:


> I have learned one thing today after coming back to try and get an update on Chance. If I ever rescue I will not come here for advice! While I see allot of great advice there were to many posts at the start that went for the jugular. I think the advice could have been given in a much better way, JMO. I hope lessons have been learned from this post.
> 
> I hope Chance is doing well today Mrs K.


 
i'm afraid i may have to agree with you on this. I understand there are so many people on this board who have much more experience with rescuing than most but some people really did go overboard on the attack. The mere fact that Sandra even stepped up to help this guy in the condition he's in whether he's 15 years old or older or younger than that doesnt matter. She's been worried about Judge which admittedly can take its toll but she still stepped up to help this guy. We ALL know how a shelter can say one thing and reality can be completely different. 

Reality is, this poor dog has obviously not been cared for since he was dumped by whoever, doesnt matter, to die a cold scary unloved death in a shelter. Someone came along and decided this guy deserved more than that and stepped up to the plate. He is now loved and cared for, for however long he has left. At least she is trying. How many people would HONESTLY not only step up but be able to take on the work involved with a dog who is so medically challenged, even with financial help from a rescue? Sometimes there is only so much you can do or that the dog can handle. Instead of ripping into her for doing what she and the vet feel is right, how about understanding as best you can the tough situation and how GRATEFUL the DOG is to simply be some place where someone is showing him some kindness in his final days? 

I get that people are passionate but the attacks not just on this thread but other can get out of hand. People get pushy and mean when their advice isnt taken immediately or to a T and it causes others to get defensive. Sandra, IMO, has honestly gone above and beyond. Instead of continuing the should have done this should have done that so and so is wrong, how about everyone just PRAY for Chance and send good thoughts that his final days in the care of Sandra and the vet are good and he knows that he wont go unloved like so many other dogs who never make it out of that cold, unfeeling, scary shelter. There is a BIG different between constructive critism and being downright mean. I also believe there are a couple people who commented on this thread and continued to do so who were rude, pushy and downright nasty because Sandra didnt immediately jump all over taking their advice and instead still chooses to follow her own thoughts on the subject. No sense beating a dead horse. 

Good thoughts people. There is only so much a person can do and from the sounds of things, Chance is in desperate need of support in his final times and attacking the person caring for him stresses her out which we all know can feed down to him. Stop abusing those who help the best they can and be nice. Until you're in her shoes, take a step back and offer advice but dont get uppity when its not taken. Just my $0.02


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## Stevenzachsmom

First, I want to say that I did learn some things from this thread. Thank you MatsiRed. You gave some helpful hints for caring for the senior, infirm dog. I loved your solution for dealing with incontinence. As the owner of a 13 year old shepherd, I'm sure I can put some of those suggestions to good use. I have to say, though, as awesome as you are MatsiRed, I can't see myself doing all that you did. I guess I don't have the heart. I can't imagine losing my old girl. Don't even want to think about it. I have implemented some changes in her care. She will never be vaccinated for anything ever again. She will never take heartworm preventative again. I will do what I can to keep her comfortable and pain free. There will be no heroic measures in an attempt to lengthen her life.

I agree with Debbi a hundred percent, regarding elderly people. Sometimes, I think it would be better to be an old dog than to be an old person. Seems often, the old person has about as much say in his care as an old dog. My mother is 85 years old. Her overall health is good and her mind is clear. She would disagree with running a few tests on the 98 year old lady at the hospital. My mother doesn't want any more tests, any more procedures, any more pills. She wants to be left alone. She has sworn she will never go to a hospital again. Her neighbor just came home from the hospital, yesterday, with a colostomy. She said, "Don't EVER let them do that to me." The family is aware of her wishes and we will respect them.

Elderly people often do not realize that they can refuse treatment. Doctors can't accept death, so do everything they can to prolong life. Ten years ago, my father was in the hospital with end stage renal failure. As his quality of life continued to decline, the doctor told him of procedures that could add months to his life. My father desperately wanted someone to tell him he could stop. It was finally up to me to say, "I think you have had enough." 

Currently, my 88 year old uncle is in a rehab. center, following a stroke. He is too weak to do PT. He looks like a concentration camp survivor. In my opinion, he should be in hospice care - preferably "at home hospice care". His mind is sharp and he doesn't want to live this way. He said this is a rough way to go and he is ready. Nope Uncle - sorry, can't let you do that.

Maybe my opinion is skewed. I think old people and old dogs should be made comfortable and left alone. My old dog sleeps a lot and I hope she just goes out that way. I commend Mrs. K for taking on this senior dog with health issues. It is hard enough to clean the butt of your own dog that you have loved for so long. It takes a lot to do that for a dog you just met. Not everyone could or would.


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## Jack's Dad

Amen. To vat, KZoppa and stevenzachsmom


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## Liesje

I have that type of Ruffwear harness (well mine's black but I think it's basically the same) I can lend to Sandra if it would help.

Stevenzachsmom, I agree with you (with most cases). When my dear grandma took a turn for the worse there were no heroic measures. She had been in pain and suffering for over 20 years (I am 26 and have never known her without pain)...what good would it have done? Just so we could say our goodbyes the next month? We gave her pain meds and made her comfortable and got all the family together. I am not even sure what she died from (she was elderly and had several severe ailments) but she was ready to leave us and everyone was ready for the pain to be over.

As far as dogs go I think it can be more complicated emotionally because they cannot tell us what they want. We knew my grandma was ready to go. A dog...well, they are all so different and we have to figure it out for them. My husband and I have talked about each of our dogs, what sorts of things would present "quality of life" issues and let me tell you we have very different standards for each dog.


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## Pattycakes

Hunter Jack said:


> Amen. To vat, KZoppa and stevenzachsmom


Ditto.


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## Castlemaid

I think that what got people upset is that there seems to be a trend of dog being put down or "needing" to be put down that go through Mrs. K's household. There is good intentions for sure, but seems that even the rescue and foster people, who regularly take in animals with behavioural issues, or old and sick neglected dogs, have a better track record at keeping them alive, and not giving up so quickly. 

And too many inconsistencies in the story - it is very perturbing. Sounds like the rescue was more about getting attention than about rescuing an old dog and giving it a good life. After being on the forum for a few years, there is a posting pattern from some people that long-timers can pick up on, and unfortunately, it rang alarm bells with a lot of people. 

I think Mrs. K's heart is in the right place. I think Chance is lucky to have (maybe) another chance - but again, talking about having the dog put down in two days when everyone is saying, give the dog _at least_ two weeks if not more, there might be a huge turnaround by then - what is so hard with that?


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## Tbarrios333

What blows me away is that a simple suggestion to give the dog more time turned into mud slinging and it is still ongoing. Yes, there were some harsh comments, but maybe there is a history between those people and nobody entirely knows the background OR maybe the OP overreacted to some of the suggestions and opinions. Everyone that didn't pat her on the back got a slap in the face. Welcome to group think.
Would everyone have preferred that nobody took notice of the elephant in the room? That we ignore the fact that one week is far too short to be able to tell what is going on?
People have commented that a dog like this can completely turn around and get as much as 2 great years. Why should one give up when they haven't even begun the great fight? One week is not nearly long enough to be able to tell what is going on and most definitely not long enough to make a decision with such dire consequences.
Yes, we all die eventually, I think everyone here has tasted the bitterness of death and I agree that dying with dignity is the way to go. 
What I don't understand is why we think it is okay to let the dog go when there is still hope. We don't even know if he is really beyond all saving; it's too soon to tell. This is a day to day thing.
She said he is eating canned food. Isn't that a good indicator that there is still room for progress?
The sad part is not that people won't seek advice here, that is entirely your decision. It is that others will be less willing to impart controversial advice because of the reactions they get.


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## Tbarrios333

Castlemaid said:


> I think that what got people upset is that there seems to be a trend of dog being put down or "needing" to be put down that go through Mrs. K's household. There is good intentions for sure, but seems that even the rescue and foster people, who regularly take in animals with behavioural issues, or old and sick neglected dogs, have a better track record at keeping them alive, and not giving up so quickly.
> 
> And too many inconsistencies in the story - it is very perturbing. Sounds like the rescue was more about getting attention than about rescuing an old dog and giving it a good life. After being on the forum for a few years, there is a posting pattern from some people that long-timers can pick up on, and unfortunately, it rang alarm bells with a lot of people.
> 
> I think Mrs. K's heart is in the right place. I think Chance is lucky to have (maybe) another chance - but again, talking about having the dog put down in two days when everyone is saying, give the dog _at least_ two weeks if not more, there might be a huge turnaround by then - what is so hard with that?


:thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA

*chance*

:thumbup:


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## Mrs.K

Castlemaid said:


> I think that what got people upset is that there seems to be a trend of dog being put down or "needing" to be put down that go through Mrs. K's household. There is good intentions for sure, but seems that even the rescue and foster people, who regularly take in animals with behavioural issues, or old and sick neglected dogs, have a better track record at keeping them alive, and not giving up so quickly.
> 
> And too many inconsistencies in the story - it is very perturbing. Sounds like the rescue was more about getting attention than about rescuing an old dog and giving it a good life. After being on the forum for a few years, there is a posting pattern from some people that long-timers can pick up on, and unfortunately, it rang alarm bells with a lot of people.
> 
> I think Mrs. K's heart is in the right place. I think Chance is lucky to have (maybe) another chance - but again, talking about having the dog put down in two days when everyone is saying, give the dog _at least_ two weeks if not more, there might be a huge turnaround by then - what is so hard with that?


EXCUSE ME?

So because I have put down ONE DOG it's a trend now? 

WOW!!!

You PEOPLE KNOW HOW TO TWIST THINGS!


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## DharmasMom

There has been WAY too much mud slinging in this thread. And people have been getting nasty in PM's with newbies because some people don't agree with your opinions- AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!! Opinions are like a certain part of the body, everyone has then and THEY ALL STINK!! The only one who can make decisions for Chance are Sandra, The Vet and the rescue. And everyone who keeps bringing up Zenzy- That is LOW, MEAN, and NASTY- you should be ashamed!

I had Oreo (my bunny) put down last Nov. I CHOSE- Let me make this bigger so everyone can see it- CHOSE- to have him put to sleep rather than spend boatloads of money to treat him and give him a few months and then have to put him to sleep in the end anyway. Want to call me names and make rude insinuations??? I dare you. 

I had settled down until I found out that people are getting nasty with new people and making them want to leave the forum. THAT is not how we should treat people. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mrs.K

> I think that what got people upset is that there seems to be a trend of dog being put down or "needing" to be put down that go through Mrs. K's household.


This has got to be the most ridiculous comment of all in this topic. I don't even know how to answer that. 

I've owned FOUR dogs. One I put down on January 22nd because she was uncontrollably aggressive. 

The day after I got to the US I found a dog that got lose, it was a shorthaired pointer and would have freezed to death over night. So I took him in and LOCATED HIS OWNER!
He showed up a couple of more times but I found out where he lived, opened the door to his house (it was unlocked and nobody was home) and put BOTH dogs into the house!

I rescued a dog off of craigslist, HE WAS PLACED!
I boarded a great dane for three months. NO NEED TO PUT HIM DOWN!!!! Surprising, HUH? And for one month we had three dachshunds, one great dane and three shepherds residing. 

NO RECORD OF ANY DOG THAT GOT KILLED WHILE IN MY CARE!!!!!

I have THREE remaining dogs. One is suffering from abnormal limb deformity. HE IS THRIVING ON HIS SUPPLEMENTS!


I put ONE DOG DOWN and now you've got to watch every dog that is in my care because I have a tendency to kill dogs? Or the need to euthanize them? 


ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME? 

I am seriously pissed now! :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:


*CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE CLOSE THIS TOPIC?

I WANTED TO SHARE PICTURES!

I NEVER ASKED FOR ADVISE!!!!*


And I am not even going into the rest of that post.


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## CassandGunnar

I've taken the time to go back and read through the entire thread and all the posts. I think there were some excellent tips/tricks/suggestions/advice from people who seem to have "walked the walk" with regard to fostering or rescuing or caring for a senior dog with medical issues. It's obvious that everyone that took the time to read the posts and/or post has an opinion about what's been done or being done. Some of them were delivered with a lot more passion than others.
In my opinion (for what it's worth, I know) a lot of perceptions and intent are difficult or impossible to judge in a forum like this. Everyone knows that. 
All of that being said, at the end of the day it's water under the bridge and it was perceived the way it was perceived by the person reading it. We ALL put our own spin on what is written, no matter the intent of the person posting the comments. (As my grandmother used to say, "You can't unring a bell, like it, hate it and then move on to the next thing")

I don't have a lot of experience in rescue. We've only been fosters for 4 months and have zero experience in the situation under discussion.
IMHO, could I do what Mrs. K is doing? I'd like to think so, but I don't know until the time comes.
I think taking in a rescue dog under the circumstances here is like trying to balance on a razor blade. No matter what you do, you're probably going to get hurt. The way I see it, you have to have enough caring and compassion to even want to attempt to take a dog like this into your home, but still keep yourself detached (for lack of a better word) enough to make decisions in the best interest of the dog, without letting that caring spirt and those emotions color the decisions that you're likely to be faced with. No matter how much experience you have in this type of situation, that's a tough dilema: PERIOD.

I've only been a member of this forum for going on 7 months, but I think I have come to recognize (in my opinion only) a lot of the people who have posted in this thread as "dog people", who know dogs and have experience in all areas of working with them.
That includes Mrs. K. 

I get the points made about where people think things started to go "off the tracks", but no matter where you fall for opinions on what's been done and being done, I think Mrs. K deserves a tip of the hat for taking this dog out of a bad situation and at least allowing him to feel safe, clean, secure and loved for however long he has left on this earth.

Thanks Mrs. K for stepping up.


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## LaRen616

Castlemaid said:


> I think that what got people upset is that there seems to be a trend of dog being put down or "needing" to be put down that go through Mrs. K's household. There is good intentions for sure, but seems that even the rescue and foster people, who regularly take in animals with behavioural issues, or old and sick neglected dogs, have a better track record at keeping them alive, and not giving up so quickly.
> 
> And too many inconsistencies in the story - it is very perturbing. Sounds like the rescue was more about getting attention than about rescuing an old dog and giving it a good life. After being on the forum for a few years, there is a posting pattern from some people that long-timers can pick up on, and unfortunately, it rang alarm bells with a lot of people.


:thumbup:


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## Tbarrios333

DharmasMom said:


> I had settled down until I found out that people are getting nasty with new people and making them want to leave the forum. THAT is not how we should treat people. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!


Not sure who that is, but I do think that there is a notify button for PMs if they are truly getting nasty. At the very least, you can notify a mod and let them know someone is harassing you.


----------



## Stosh

So how is he tonight? I'm inspired by those who will give loving care to the most needy. Thanks to Mrs.K and her family he's safe, comfortable and in a home.


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## Mrs.K

Stosh said:


> So how is he tonight? I'm inspired by those who will give loving care to the most needy. Thanks to Mrs.K and her family he's safe, comfortable and in a home.


He is definitely doing a bit better. He tries to follow me around the house as much as he can but it ends up in him dragging his hindlegs after him and he has to lay down to rest. He's been eating last night and this morning but he's got kennel cough. However, he's getting antibiotics so that should take care of it. 

He's been in the frontyard twice today and spend a little time in the sun. Right now, he's laying on the floor chilling.


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## Jax's Mom

Even if Mrs. K is the Dr. Kevorkian of the shelter world, what's wrong with taking a dog out of the shelter, cleaning it up and putting it to sleep with dignity?
Is it better to leave it there, rotting in its own urine, waiting in a cage until the last possible second, for someone that isn't coming, then being euthanized alone and thrown into an incinerator along with a pile of roadkill from that day?


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## DharmasMom

Mrs.K said:


> He is definitely doing a bit better. He tries to follow me around the house as much as he can but it ends up in him dragging his hindlegs after him and he has to lay down to rest. He's been eating last night and this morning but he's got kennel cough. However, he's getting antibiotics so that should take care of it.
> 
> He's been in the frontyard twice today and spend a little time in the sun. Right now, he's laying on the floor chilling.



Ignore my PM, you just answered my question. When Tessa gets over exerted she loses control of her back legs and will drag her self by her front paws. It is sad but funny at the same time. Lucky for her it doesn't happen often.


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## DharmasMom

Jax's Mom said:


> Even if Mrs. K is the Dr. Kevorkian of the shelter world, what's wrong with taking a dog out of the shelter, cleaning it up and putting it to sleep with dignity?
> Is it better to leave it there, rotting in its own urine, waiting in a cage until the last possible second, for someone that isn't coming, then being euthanized alone and thrown into an incinerator along with a pile of roadkill from that day?



 So THAT is what the "K" stands for!! I always wondered.


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## Stosh

Sounds as though he's responding better than expected. He must feel so much better to be clean and fed and with someone he can trust to care for him.


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## Jack's Dad

Jax's Mom said:


> Even if Mrs. K is the Dr. Kevorkian of the shelter world, what's wrong with taking a dog out of the shelter, cleaning it up and putting it to sleep with dignity?
> Is it better to leave it there, rotting in its own urine, waiting in a cage until the last possible second, for someone that isn't coming, then being euthanized alone and thrown into an incinerator along with a pile of roadkill from that day?


I wondered the same thing but no one ever mentioned that. Happens everyday all over. By the way I don't recall anyone saying that they had a problem with her taking more than two days and trying different things like many suggested. It is up to her. The dog might not be here as we speak if left in the shelter.


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## katieliz

glad the thread is still open, lots of good info here.

mrs. k, if you are still reading...it is a mighty big job you've taken on, and there is so much really good info in this thread that will help you help this dog, i really believe everybody here just wants what's best for him. sometimes it does seem like people comment without thoroughly reading the whole thread, but it also seems like some posters have really legitimate concerns, not even necessarily personal to you, but to the situation. regardless of who believes what about this or past situations, you gotta know that anytime you mention the "e" word, it's gonna inspire lots of heated discussion and passionate advice. possibly better to not even put that out there for comment or debate. rescue is emotionally draining. use what's useable here for you to help this dog, and just pass over what's not useable or does not apply to your situation. it's the internet, lots of differing opinions...gotta have a thick skin if you're gonna help the dogs, because there's bound to be posts you don't agree with or that are inaccurate to your situation, or that might be downright offensive to you, intermingled with what might be really incredibly valuable information that can really help the dog. and if it winds up you find that nothing can help him, know that lots of people cared enough to offer hope or solutions, useable or not so much so. and thanks again for all your efforts thusfar. take care of yourself.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am following katieliz's advice and ignoring requests not to post in the hopes that some of the information finds its way through. With the KC, make sure it's not roundworm, I think it is, because that migrates through the lungs and sounds like KC. Bring in some poop; they sound the exact same. Little Rosa had that (and all other eastern US parasites). About 6 weeks of worming later...they were parasite free! ETA: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_roundworms_in_dogs___puppies.html

Good articles on KC: ASPCA | Kennel Cough
Kennel Cough (Infectious Tracheobronchitis) in Dogs
Kennel Cough

But ask your vet about the steam thing. With my lungs steam just makes it worse. I also don't use the bordatella vaccine (don't tell).

Debbi, for Tessa, was just googling and saw this: http://www.petplace.com/dogs/thrombocytopenia-in-dogs/page1.aspx (nosebleeds - have no idea but saw that and thought of her)


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## WarrantsWifey

Hey Mrs. K. Thanks for what your doing for Chance...... He is lucky to have you in his life right about now. Thanks for the pictures too! He is a handsome senior! :wub:


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## Lauri & The Gang

For those that want to know more about this dogs eval at the Animal Control, here are the details that are posted on his Facebook page:



> Manhattan Center
> 
> My name is RALPH. My Animal ID # is A901225.
> I am a male black and brown germ shepherd. The shelter thinks I am about 15 years old,
> 
> I came in the shelter as a STRAY on 06/21/2011 from NY 10461, owner surrender reason stated was STRAY.
> 
> Reason for New Hope: DISEAS-ILL.
> 
> EUTH MEMO
> No Euth Memo
> 
> MOST RECENT MEDICAL RATING, BEHAVIOR RATING & WEIGHT
> 06/22/2011 Exam Type OBSERVATION - Medical Rating is 4 NC - SEVERE CONDITIONS NOT CONTAGIOUS, Behavior Rating is NO CONCERN, Weight 82.0 LBS.
> 
> Breathing normal Rectal temp 99.4F
> 
> 
> RALPH has a BIO:
> 
> Ralph is a 15 yo intact male stray. His care has not be good before arriving to the shelter. His coat is soiled and clumps of hair are hanging on his sides. Ralph is a good nature. he is a friendly character and good with other dogs even little barking rascals and puppies. He wags his tail. May be it reminds him of old times. His hips are weak and he did flinch coming out of his cage. Ralph went twice ard the block, no problem. He climbs up and down the stairs:no problem and he went back to his cage w/o help. Ralph can sit and he enjoys very much petting. I know he is an old dog but he deserves to spend what is left comfortable and loved.
> 
> 
> PET PROFILE
> No Summary
> 
> 
> WEB MEMO
> No Web Memo
> 
> BEHAVIOR EVALUATION -
> 
> No Behavior Summary
> 
> 06/21/2011 INITIAL PHYSICAL EXAM
> Medical rating was 4 NC - SEVERE CONDITIONS NOT CONTAGIOUS, behavior rating was NO CONCERN
> SCAN NEGATIVE BRIGHT, ALERT, RESPONSIVE, HYDRATED PHYSICAL EXAM-OLDER DOG, CLOUDY EYES, HEAVY TARTAR, SHEDDING, MATTED COAT, HEAVY BREATHING, NOSF
> 
> 06/22/2011 RE-EXAM (LAST MAJOR EXAM)
> Medical rating 4 NC - SEVERE CONDITIONS NOT CONTAGIOUS, behavior rating NO CONCERN
> Patient is BAR, very friendly and appears adequately hydrated. EENT: nuclear sclerosis OU. Clear ears and nose. Moderate dental disease noted. INT: matted coat on ventrum with thick coat on dorsum (urine odor). H/L: no murmurs/arrythmias noted. Normal pulses. Decreased lung sounds bilateral with normal respiratory rate but slight abdominal component noted. LNN: wnl Abd: Tenses up on palpation but does not appear overtly painful. MS: amb x 4 Neuro: appropriate Recommend dx Monitor and reassess
> 
> 
> 
> Additional Photos:
> 
> Original Thread:
> Urgent PART 2's Photos - DUPLICATE PICS #1 | Facebook
> 
> Urgent PART 2's Photos - "Other Photos Linked to Main Threads" | Facebook
> 
> Urgent PART 2's Photos - "Other Photos Linked to Main Threads" | Facebook


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## vat

I am really sad that I NOW can not see pictures of Chance and find out how he is doing! I wonder why Mrs K is being railroaded because she put down one dog due to aggression. While I have seen other people on this forum do the same thing and get told oh well it was probably better for the dog and his demons now he can rest in peace, etc, etc. Mrs K does it and WOW she is a killer!

I had to put down a few dogs in my life, I guess I am just an evil witch then! It is just sad that a few people on this forum continually twist things around so they can sling mud. Just remember those who live in glass houses should not throw stone!


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## JakodaCD OA

I too, am hoping the GOOD advice and Suggestions can be weeded thru the negative stuff.

Pm'ing people to bash them for their opinions is ridiculous. If anyone gets harrassing pm's, I believe you can put the person on "ignore" to avoid this.


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## James

I can't believe how much catty drama is on this forum. It's sad, really. Makes me think of that movie "Best In Show," except that this isn't funny. At all.


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## holland

If you stay longer your sense of humor might change


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## James

Maybe one day I will have over 2000 posts, and thus I will be both smarter and appreciative of this humor. Right? 

My only hope is that what is truly best for this old dog is done, whatever that turns out to be.


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## LaRen616

James said:


> Maybe one day I will have over 2000 posts, and thus I will be both smarter and appreciative of this humor. Right?
> 
> My only hope is that what is truly best for this old dog is done, whatever that turns out to be.


People who have more than 2000 posts dont think they are better than everyone else. It doesn't mean they are full of amazing knowledge and know everything, you can get over 2000 posts just by commenting about how pretty someone's dogs are.


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## WarrantsWifey

LaRen616 said:


> People who have more than 2000 posts dont think they are better than everyone else. It doesn't mean they are full of amazing knowledge and know everything, you can get over 2000 posts just by commenting about how pretty someone's dogs are.


LaRen have I told you how pretty your dogs are??


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## LaRen616

WarrantsWifey said:


> LaRen have I told you how pretty your dogs are??


:laugh:


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## Zoeys mom

Wow Mrs. K sorry you have been railroaded like this....I wonder if the naysayers want to take him in and pay for his care??? This is a 15 year old dog...would have been put down at the shelter as it is adopting this dog out would have been a struggle. He needs expensive care, is in pain, and has lived a long life. He shouldn't have had to die living caged in a shelter so instead he has a warm bed, someone to pet him, doggie friends, and a home. I'm not sure what it is people think she should have done differently. She could have left him there matted and smelly, but she took him home, cleaned him up, and is caring for him the best she can. She has a dog who needs care.....and I'm pretty sure she's not made of money so is doing her best really worse than leaving him there????

At 15 with DM the kindest thing to do is to let him go to the bridge where he can run again and escape his pain. However, those who disagree should donate some money to this poor guy or take him in themselves since they can do it so much better-geesh!!


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## Tbarrios333

Really? This is still going on? What is so wrong with asking for TIME and some simple tests just to see if he can be put out of his pain with some treatment. Death isn't the only escape and we don't even know if he really is 15.


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## Jax's Mom

Zoeys mom said:


> Wow Mrs. K sorry you have been railroaded like this....


Me too, if I wasn't put off by rescuing a dog before, I certainly am now... Wow, I never knew "rescue" people can be so hateful and abusive. 
Any good they do helping animals is instantly negated by the torture and anxiety they cause the people around them. 
From all of this, I've concluded never to take in an animal because I'm just depriving it of being "worked on" or cared for by a person way more qualified than I could ever could be.


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## holland

James said:


> Maybe one day I will have over 2000 posts, and thus I will be both smarter and appreciative of this humor. Right?
> 
> My only hope is that what is truly best for this old dog is done, whatever that turns out to be.


 
There is also the chance that you might not appreciate the humor-but yes hope all works out the best for the dog


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## Zoeys mom

Those simple test will run $300-$500 dollars...and if they are so simple why did the shelter not do that??? Oh yeah because they can not afford to sink those kind of resources into an elderly dog that definitely has issues, and neither can Mrs. K. What if the dog is really 10- does that make a difference? He can barely walk or eat and the last time I checked most vets recommend euthanasia once the dog is not mobile, does not eat, and is incontinent- she is 3 for 3 here guys. I would rather die at home with family instead of in some kind of institution, and so would most others. Shelters put down dogs all the time because of lack of resources like space, but she is bad for not sinking more money into a dog that is definitely beyond saving????


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## Tbarrios333

Jax's Mom said:


> Me too, if I wasn't put off by rescuing a dog before, I certainly am now... Wow, I never knew "rescue" people can be so hateful and abusive.


Your opinion is your opinion and it is valid. My opinion is that this is the most ridiculous and hurtful thing you could say to a rescue person, but you know what? They don't care because it is not about YOU it is about the dogs.
Whether or not you rescue shouldn't even be based off what other people tell you. Had she come on this forum with the intention to remain open instead of attacking everyone that offered a suggestion, her responses would have been COMPLETELY different.

Nobody EVER said in this entire thread that Mrs. K's heart wasn't in the right place. I didn't see it once. The ONLY thing those cruel and heartless rescue people asked for are some tests and time to determine what exactly is going on with this dog whose very age is questioned. In two weeks this dog could be dead or better, but IF IF IF IF IF IF IF (should I add more ifs?) he were to be euthanized, we would never know.
What people don't seem to want to understand is that it takes more than a few days to get the whole picture of a dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I can't believe I am even still her, but....PLEASE people - look at the top of your screen. Where is this thread? Can we all read now? Pictures, Pictures, Pictures. 

Mrs. K posted to share pictures. She never asked for opinions or advice.

Secondly, maybe the dog isn't 15. I kind of doubt he is, as few shepherds live to 15. But honestly, does anyone think this dog looks 2 or 3? Heck, even 5 or 6? Many people consider their GSDs seniors at 7 and many die by the time they are 9 or 10. IMHO, I think it is fair to say this is an OLD dog, even if he isn't 15.


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## James

LaRen616 said:


> It doesn't mean they are full of amazing knowledge and know everything, you can get over 2000 posts just by commenting about how pretty someone's dogs are.


That is exactly my point


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## Jack's Dad

I respect an admire those who do rescue. They are very dedicated an do something I can't do. 

Some say we don't get it. That all they are asking is for more time and making suggestions to help the OP. I got that a long time ago and don't even disagree.

The part that some of the rescue people don't get is that their approach has almost a religious fervor to it. Sometimes it does not come across very nicely and I'm not even sure if they care. For example the idea that the OP has a history of dogs going into her house and then winding up euthanized is not nice. If that were true then something should be done legally, if not true then it may be libel. 
It also seems that so much has gone into the discussion of this dog while other dogs are being put to sleep daily in shelters everyday. This dog Chance at least has a chance.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Amen Andy!


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## Sue Smart

You all certainly make me feel guilty for releasing my beloved Layla. Wheelchairs are not right for all dogs.


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## dogless

I agree wholeheartedly with this. My dog had DM and she was in nowhere near as bad of shape as Chance when I sent her to the bridge. She was suffering, so I let her go. It made ME suffer but the time was right for her. 



Sue Smart said:


> You all certainly make me feel guilty for releasing my beloved Layla. Wheelchairs are not right for all dogs.


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## Tbarrios333

I'm sorry you both feel that way, but I think it should be noted that Chance has not had a definitive DM diagnosis yet. From my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, there has not been a thorough investigation of his condition. It may be an injury.


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## Jax's Mom

Sue Smart said:


> You all certainly make me feel guilty for releasing my beloved Layla. Wheelchairs are not right for all dogs.


They're making me feel really stupid for paying so much money on vet bills when clearly they can make all these medical conclusions from a forum.

Next year I'm just using people's opinions to vaccinate my dogs.


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## Jack's Dad

I think there are some raw feelings for all of us and unfortunately it does feel personal at times. I started to question myself about my 13.5 year old GSD that I had put to sleep because of cancer.. I believe I made the right decision.

I think the topic of rescue and end of life are worth discussing. I've asked someone to start a new thread on rescue as I have some questions and comments. If they don't choose to then I will try to. It would be nice to learn and discuss without the hostility. We all love our dogs whether we disagree on certain things. We need a new thread and to put this particular one to rest IMO. For some there is too much old stuff on here.


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## Josie/Zeus

MatsiRed, I remember Chewbecca the most from all your rescues, it's been years but sometimes I still read about him. 

Mrs K. - You are doing the most wonderful thing for him, please let us know if you need anything. 

Onwards and Upwards


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## shilohsmom

Mrs.K said:


> He is definitely doing a bit better. He tries to follow me around the house as much as he can but it ends up in him dragging his hindlegs after him and he has to lay down to rest. He's been eating last night and this morning but he's got kennel cough. However, he's getting antibiotics so that should take care of it.
> 
> He's been in the frontyard twice today and spend a little time in the sun. Right now, he's laying on the floor chilling.


I'm glad to hear he is doing better. If there is a lesson to be learned here I would hope that you would learn not to mention euthansia so quickly in your posts. You spoke of putting Zanzy down in your post dated 1-23-11. At first you appeared to be understanding of her situation (having brought a new dog in, all the changes, etc) but before we knew it she was PTS. Even you (which I think is normal) questioned this decision in later posts. I'm not saying this was the wrong decision, I'm just saying from a viewer-this is what we remember. 

Later, on 6-3 you posted "I think I have to prepare myself to say Good-bye" referring to your dog Judge. Again, we see this and the first thing we think of is WHAT? Facts start coming out and it turns out he is ok. 

Then we see this post and you begin by stating IF he doesn't show improvement in two days He will be PTS. At this point, flags are a flying. Its not that you haven't done the right thing, but we are reading what you are saying. Its the internet, thats all we have (the written word). We know he needs to be given time (just look at the past day or so, according to you he's improving). 

Unfortunately, once the flags are flying some of us are looking at everything. You need to understand that some of us have spent years trying to not send dogs to the wrong people, trying to make sure they go from a bad situation into a much better one. This doesn't just mean time spent on the boards. No, we've spent time establishing contacts with rescues, time trying to change laws and make sure people that harm people are held accountable,...you name it, many of us spend a lot of time with animal rights issues. We have watched as rescues go down. Our hearts break when we find here about the Christiane Judds of the world. There is no way we could do what we do if we are not skeptical. 

I'm not saying those here are any better than anyone else, those that have been here longer are any better, those with more posts, etc.. no, I'm saying there are people here who have trainned themselves to look for stories that don't add up, for things that don't make sense. 

I think your heart was in the right place. I don't think you should have taken on this responsibility with Judges bills, etc. I wish you and Chance the best.


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## Mrs.K

*First off Judge doesn't have any Bills. *

A lot of people on here have facts that ARE NOT facts and untrue!


Secondly I was preparing to say good bye because he was doing really bad, however preparing doesn't mean you put them down. It's a possibility that you might have to take into account depending on what is going on. The doctor painted a picture as if a surgery wasn't even promising, said that NOBODY, and I repeat: NOBODY, NOT even Cornell would do the surgery he needs. That was the information I had and based off of that I was thinking what I am supposed to do with a dog that can't walk, that has a deformity which could (again that was the information I got) easily break, possibly has some bad HD, is already wobbly on his legs... and I do go through EVERY possibility and that also includes to put them down. I have learned to think that way from childhood on. With him, a simple supplement helped. With Chance, it doesn't! 


For crying out loud get some common sense people. I've looked into everything I could possibly do and I did and he is thriving now. 

*As for Chance, he CAME HERE to die. It is EXPECTED that he's dying and my job is to keep him comfortable as long as possible for however long he has.*


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## Mrs.K

And THIRD:

IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

Even if I HAD to put Judge down because of a medical condition, ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and it doesn't give me a bad track record either. 

HOW MANY PEOPLE COME ON HERE EVERY DARN DAY AND POST THAT THEY HAD TO PUT THEIR DOG DOWN?

HOW MANY COME ON HERE TO PREPARE TO SAY GOOD BYE?

AT LEAST I keep fighting and don't easily put an animal down, but I DO take EVERYTHING into consideration and try to find a way to avoid it. THAT IS MY WAY OF DEALING WITH THINGS!

BACK THE **** OFF, FINALLY!

I AM SICK AND TIRED OF YOU PEOPLE! You are taking a good thing and rip it to pieces. I hope you are proud of yourself.


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## shilohsmom

Well, we wouldn't know it the way you way you speak about not having money and fundraising. Or as you state ON THIS THREAD *....NO LET ME BOLD IT TOO...YOU STATED THAT THE MONEY FOR CHANCE MIGHT BE BETTER SPENT ON JUDGE...HUMM....I THOUGHT CHANCE WAS A RESCUE???? YOU CAN'T SPEND RESCUE MONEY ON YOUR OWN DOG???? WHATS WITH THAT???? OR ARE 'WE' JUST LOOSING 'OUR' COMMON SENSE. *

*I TRIED TO BE NICE ABOUT YOUR SITUATION BUT YOUR-YES, YOU ARE THE ONE THATS CONSISTANTING MENTIONING PTS...NOT US, YOU. ARE YOU LOOKING FOR PITY??? WHATS WITH THAT....OH POOR YOU, LETS GET EVERYONES ATTN BY SAVING THE WORST CARE SINARO AND THEN WE CAN GO FROM THERE.... *


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## shilohsmom

mrs.k said:


> yeah, but not right now. If i have to put him down in two days because he doesn't make any improvements than that is money that could have went to judge. So i have to stay rational of what is worth spending and what isn't.
> 
> I make his life as easy as possible for as long as i have him but i have to wait at least another two days before i make a decision.
> 
> For now, he's spoiled rotten.


here is *your quote*


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am going to lock this now. 

I hope that there are updates on Chance in another thread and that the information (I won't send this to deleted) will be available to review. 

I also hope that he is a typical shelter dog who blooms and "magically" de-ages with time, medical care and TLC.


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