# This is crazy! Another cop shoots dog



## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

This time the dog was in its own yard contained by an invisible fence. What the heck is wrong with these cops shooting other peoples dogs? This idiot obviously shouldn't have a loaded gun.

*Cop shoots, kills family dog | ajc.com*


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> This time the dog was in its own yard contained by an invisible fence. What the heck is wrong with these cops shooting other peoples dogs? This idiot obviously shouldn't have a loaded gun.
> 
> *Cop shoots, kills family dog | ajc.com*


Police are humans too, they are subject to fears, rational or not. I know a lot of officers who are terrified of dogs. The fact it was a GR means nothing, GRs can be aggressive too.
The article states that there were no signs advising of an invisible fence. 
This officer saw a dog running at him and barking. He had no idea the dog was contained. It's easy to judge when you are a person comfortable around dogs and know how to read dogs, but not everyone is like that. 
It is not what I would have done, i do think it was most likely an over reaction But I am not so quick to condemn without knowing the entire story. There are a few details left out.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Even if there had been signs that indicating an invisible fence, dogs charge right through those all the time. 

Even if youre experienced in reading dog behavior--a charging, barking dog is enough to scare anyone. And I do not expect every single LEO to be an expert in dog behavior anyway.

And the article said "he does what he always does, barks", you would think if these owners were aware that their dog would charge and bark at people walking down the sidewalk they would do something about it.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I don't care for invisible fences. They don't keep other dogs or intruders out. They do nothing to protect the dog that they surround. Sad situation, but the owner needs to accept some blame. I never leave my dog outside unattended - especially not with an invisible fence.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Owners are 100% to blame. 

Ok, maybe the invisible fence manufacturers are .005% to blame and the owners are 99.995% to blame. 

In the world according to Sue, there would be no invisible fences. I have been charged by dogs having these, and while the fences DID hold them back, I had NO way of knowing that the fence existed. I think that invisible fence marketeers are maybe just a little too aggressive and maybe a little untruthful with their claims about your dog's safety. 

The officer was doing his job, a loose dog barked and charged toward him, he pulled his gun and removed the threat of a charging, barking, loose dog. He should not have to determine whether or not there is an invisible fence. If the dog was chained or fenced in by a visible fence, than I would say, "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!" As it stands, I hope he does not see undue pressure from this incident because of the idiot owners and the equally idiotic news media.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

What selzer said. 

The dog was outside, unsupervised, contained by nothing other than an electric fence, which was not clearly marked. When the officer passed the yard, the dog jumped off the porch and charged at the officer, barking. The officer actually stood his ground and told the dog to stop - which is the thing that most people are taught when being faced with an aggressively charging dog. Tell the dog STOP or GO HOME in an authoritative voice. He did exactly that. The dog kept charging, so he shot the dog.

This is 100% the family's fault. Even though they know that their dog barks at and charges passers-by, they leave the dog outside, unsupervised, contained only by an electric fence. At the time this happened, three of the family's boys were inside the house, nobody was outside watching the dog. I wonder how many times the dog has charged at someone? How many times he's gone through the fence? And I LOVE the excuse, "He's a Golden Retriever. He barks, but he's never bitten anyone." As if Goldens don't bite.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

On one hand I completely agree that it's not ok to let a territorially protective dog out in a front yard with an invisible fence, thus letting it scare and threaten by passers on a public sidewalk. But I also am very uncomfortable that the dog was killed on its owners' property. If the dog got on a public sidewalk, that'd be a different matter. 

But I can understand the officer, especially if he has been on a call to investigate a suspicious activity and was in a highly alert mode to react quickly to threats.

If the dog has always done that, it seems that neighbors put up with it, instead of addressing it with the dog's owners and, if that doesn't help, with Animal Control. In a functioning community people constructively bring up issues before something terrible happens. But functioning communities seem on the brink of extinction.


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

Thats very sad, no matter who is at blame. They still have to go without their dog. I'd be devastated if I lost my pups. If it was my fault or at the fault of somebody else. Loss is Loss....


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My parents neighbors have two German Shorthaired Pointers that go beserk at the line of their invisible fence. At first, they unnerved me some when I was unloading my dogs. I have to admit it was not pleasant to witness the charge, but they stayed in their area. I really can't imagine thinking of shooting them though.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Do I get to shoot things that I think might come off their property and become a threat?
In the morning I walk to work by a church that feeds homeless people, a lot of them yell crazy things and scare me... I can't read them really well... Can I shoot them?
I never wanted to be a cop because I'm small and a lot of things scare me but if I can just walk around firing away at stuff I don't trust or understand, it might not be that bad. :rolleyes2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Loss IS loss. But when the owners and other blame the officer for doing the shooting, they will get another dog and do the same thing with it, because they saw nothing wrong with their approach to keeping their dog. 

People need to be smarter, and protect these wonderful creatures. If I had a nickel for every nice golden I saw at the dog show this weekend....

And yet, they are large and no one should feel like they are going to be bowled over or bitten by one. Little dog owners should be equally careful, but if the cop shot a Yorkie in the same situation, doo doo would be flying at citi hall.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax's Mom said:


> Do I get to shoot things that I think might come off their property and become a threat?
> In the morning I walk to work by a church that feeds homeless people, a lot of them yell crazy things and scare me... I can't read them really well... Can I shoot them?
> I never wanted to be a cop because I'm small and a lot of things scare me but if I can just walk around firing away at stuff I don't trust or understand, it might not be that bad. :rolleyes2:


The police officer was not there taking his morning constitutional. He was doing his JOB. No one should have to face getting bitten in the course of their work. If the dog is loose and the dog is barking and coming, then it has to go, so sorry. 

No, you cannot shoot the homeless people. This is not the same thing. 

The officer could not KNOW that dog lived there. It was on the porch. Big deal. When I was a kid I walked all over town, with my dog off lead, and she used to go up on to porches that left cat food out... I pretended I did not know her. She had no qualms going onto someones porch. 

When dog flies off a porch and charges barking at you, and you are there trying to respond to a possible crime, the dog is going to lose. The owners are IDIOTS.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

This is crazy! Another armed (teeth) dog charges an officer trying to do his job!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Evidently the "suspicious person" call she was responding to was a person selling meat out of a truck. She showed up at the dog owner's house because they had a white truck parked in front of their house. 
I'm not saying the owners aren't at all at fault here but I'd like to think if my dogs didn't leave my property, I could have them outside without risking them being shot in my own yard. 
If my dog received a broken face from being hit by a night stick on the sidewalk, I'd say it's 100% my fault.
I'm particularly offended by this because my dog is "scary". That's part of the reason I have him, even though he would never hurt anyone, I like that he keeps people away from myself and my house; it makes me sick that someone has the "right" to kill him because they're scared of him. Thank god we don't have a yard... unnless he gets shot through the living room window because he _might_ jump out and then _maybe_ bite.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OK, I said the owner needed to accept some of the blame. I take that back. I agree with Selzer and AbbyK9 - the owner deserves all of the blame. How is an officer supposed to see an invisible fence? How is he supposed to know the dog is going to stop? 

I drive by a home in the country that has an invisible fence. I keep thinking that dog is going to run into the street and I am going to hit him. Hasn't happened yet, but it really scares me. He doesn't look like he is going to stop in time.

I feel bad for the dog. It wasn't his fault. His owners did not protect him and that "fence"
contributed to his death.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> How is an officer supposed to see an invisible fence? How is he supposed to know the dog is going to stop


I would have suggested she stand on city property and wait for the dog to leave the property. 
Then she at least has the defense that she shot a dog "at large".


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm not saying the owners aren't at all at fault here but I'd like to think if my dogs didn't leave my property, I could have them outside without risking them being shot in my own yard.
> If my dog received a broken face from being hit by a night stick on the sidewalk, I'd say it's 100% my fault..


But how close should the dog be able to get before someone decides it is a threat? Part of my question about the facts in the initial question WAS in regards to that.




Jax's Mom said:


> I'm particularly offended by this because my dog is "scary". That's part of the reason I have him, even though he would never hurt anyone, I like that he keeps people away from myself and my house; it makes me sick that someone has the "right" to kill him because they're scared of him. Thank god we don't have a yard... unnless he gets shot through the living room window because he _might_ jump out and then _maybe_ bite.


This is something I would think most of us here deal with. Our dogs are typically considered more "scary" than other breeds. I take great care in making sure my dogs are not put into a situation where someone views them as a threat. I would never allow them to charge at the sidewalk, restrained or not. I would not expect people not to be alarmed at such a behavior of my own dogs, Lab or GSDs. 

Part of the problem here is the owners may have felt that since the dog was a Golden, and a nice dog, that they didn't feel the behavior of barking and charging was particularly threatening to anyone. That is exactly why I pointed out that GRs can be aggressive too. Many many people will approach my Lab and avoid my GSDs, but I still deal with people who are downright terrified of my lab (he is not a particularly large dog either). He is completely and totally your typical "never met a stranger, pet me" Lab. But I never forget that there are those who don't see that or understand that about him. But I know others who feel that because it is a Lab, no one should be afraid. There is a similar sentiment with GRs. 

Barking at a window is a completely different scenerio than apparently being off leash and charging at someone. There is much more reason to be afraid of the dog already outside and approaching. If a dog did come through a window, you can be pretty **** sure the dog does not have good intentions.
But on the other hand, we have chosen to block our window on the stairs because my dogs frighten the mailman He IS afraid they will come through.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax's Mom said:


> Evidently the "suspicious person" call she was responding to was a person selling meat out of a truck. She showed up at the dog owner's house because they had a white truck parked in front of their house.
> I'm not saying the owners aren't at all at fault here but I'd like to think if my dogs didn't leave my property, I could have them outside without risking them being shot in my own yard.
> If my dog received a broken face from being hit by a night stick on the sidewalk, I'd say it's 100% my fault.
> I'm particularly offended by this because my dog is "scary". That's part of the reason I have him, even though he would never hurt anyone, I like that he keeps people away from myself and my house; it makes me sick that someone has the "right" to kill him because they're scared of him. Thank god we don't have a yard... unnless he gets shot through the living room window because he _might_ jump out and then _maybe_ bite.


 
Any call COULD be dangerous. The person could have been selling meat that he just ripped off. He could have warrants. he could not want to get arrested. It could be just violating a non-soliciation order in a locality. But to approach a situation without caution, could get you dead. 

JaxMom, if your dog came off your porch and charged barking at a little old lady walking down the street, and she slipped and fell and broke a hip because of the dog's actions, and then went to the hospital and never made it out of the hospital, would that be ok. Would you be accountable for any of that. Would you, if you KNEW the dog barked and charged at people walking down the street?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry to disagree, but no way would I allow my dog to charge at people in my front yard - invisible fence or no. I don't allow my dog in the front yard at all without me. I know she is scary. Little kids walk to and from school. She has her big GSD bark. There is no earthly reason for her to be out there annoying people. I call it common sense.

As for the officer - No, I don't think he/she should wait to see if the dog makes it to the sidewalk and is bitten before taking a shot.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm not saying the owners aren't at all at fault here but I'd like to think if my dogs didn't leave my property, I could have them outside without risking them being shot in my own yard.
> If my dog received a broken face from being hit by a night stick on the sidewalk, I'd say it's 100% my fault.
> I'm particularly offended by this because my dog is "scary". That's part of the reason I have him, even though he would never hurt anyone, I like that he keeps people away from myself and my house; it makes me sick that someone has the "right" to kill him because they're scared of him. Thank god we don't have a yard... unnless he gets shot through the living room window because he _might_ jump out and then _maybe_ bite.


So if the officer had taken a step back and waited until the dog stepped foot on the sidewalk, then shot him, you would have thought that was perfectly acceptable?! THEN it would have been 100% the owners fault? For a difference of a couple feet of open ground?

The dog charged off the porch, no fence in site, officer gives a warning, dog wont stop....in the eyes of the officer, there was no "the dog MIGHT be charging me". No, the dog WAS a real, charging threat-- giving no idication of stopping on his owners property line. 

No one has a "right" to kill a dog JUST because they are scared of him. If your dog busted out of your living room window and charged at a stranger, then yes, you have a right to shoot the dog.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

SO the officer couldn't use pepper spray, or a baton? The dog was still on the owners property. How can anyone justify this? You are allowed to have a barking and growling dog contained on your property. The dog never left his yard!

I have an invisible fence too. My GSD will bark at people they don't know that get near the yard. I am pretty sure most GSD do that as well. And I am pretty sure there is nothing illegal, anywhere, when a contained dog runs in his yard and barks at strangers. That's exactly why a lot of people get dogs to begin with.

All I can say is it's a good thing mail carriers and UPS driver are not armed. We would have a lot more dead dogs.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Awesome.....another "Bad Cop" thread, I love these!!!!! Lets see, someone said or commented on how fast the Officer drew their weapon, maybe that was in the story? Anyway, cudos to the Officer for practicing their draw, any slower and they may have gotten bitten. How in the name of [email protected]#l is the officer supposed to know if the dog is friendly or not? No leash, no fence, this is a no brainer. All these people that are cop bashers please go and become a cop for just one day and see if you can handle it.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Where is the cop bashing?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry Hansel & Gretel, but that invisible fence is giving you way too much security. The officer had no way of knowing that dog was contained in the yard, as no fence could be seen. Dogs can and will go through those fences. The fence does nothing to keep other dogs or people out. It is OUR responsibility to keep our pets safe. This owner failed. This should be a wake-up call to people with invisible fences.

As for the post office and UPS - They may not shoot your dog, but I guarantee they are not obligated to deliver your mail or packages.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> SO the officer couldn't use pepper spray, or a baton? The dog was still on the owners property. How can anyone justify this? You are allowed to have a barking and growling dog contained on your property. The dog never left his yard!
> 
> I have an invisible fence too. My GSD will bark at people they don't know that get near the yard. I am pretty sure most GSD do that as well. And I am pretty sure there is nothing illegal, anywhere, when a contained dog runs in his yard and barks at strangers. That's exactly why a lot of people get dogs to begin with.
> 
> All I can say is it's a good thing mail carriers and UPS driver are not armed. We would have a lot more dead dogs.


 
Why would he use pepper spray or a baton? That makes no sense. Contained would be an actual "fence" not an invisible fence, how is the Officer supposed to know there was an invisible fence there? Makes no difference if the dog was in the yard, it charged at the Officer and the Officer preserved his or her life or injury to ones self.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Sorry to disagree, but no way would I allow my dog to charge at people in my front yard - invisible fence or no. I don't allow my dog in the front yard at all without me. I know she is scary. Little kids walk to and from school. She has her big GSD bark. There is no earthly reason for her to be out there annoying people. I call it common sense.
> 
> As for the officer - No, I don't think he/she should wait to see if the dog makes it to the sidewalk and is bitten before taking a shot.


I wish I could be so perfect. As hard as I try, there have been times when my dogs have done exactly this. 

I have two small children who will open the door and leave it open. It can get a little crazy when you have kids and dogs. 

Our back yard is hard fenced and we have an invisible fence in the front yard so if one of the kids lets them out they are still contained. Nice to know so many would blame me if a trigger happy cop shot my dog dead in my FRONT YARD.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Where is the cop bashing?


 
Ummmmmmm you called the Officer an idiot?


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> Why would he use pepper spray or a baton? That makes no sense. Contained would be an actual "fence" not an invisible fence, how is the Officer supposed to know there was an invisible fence there? *Makes no difference if the dog was in the yard*, it charged at the Officer and the Officer preserved his or her life or injury to ones self.


Yes it does. Cops cannot shoot peoples dogs in their yard. You are nuts if you think that is acceptable.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

It's just the fact that there was no way to tell if there was an invisible fence or not. If a dog is barking and running at someone, it probably doesn't look too friendly from the cop's point of view, and certainly not safe for anyone passing by.

My Lab was attacked by a Golden Retriever who came running from the front of the house barking. When he got to us, he attacked...

The dog should not have been outside unattended, especially by an INVISIBLE fence. That's just it, nobody can see it's actually there...

And just what has already been said, if the owners say "like he usually does" or whatever, that was down right stupid of them to leave him out like that if he normally runs and barks at people! 100% their fault!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Yes it does. Cops cannot shoot peoples dogs in their yard. You are nuts if you think that is acceptable.


So the officer was supposed to wait until the dog got off the property to attack him/her and then shoot? I think officers usually try to avoid bad situations and their job is to stop them ASAP. Not wait until all **** breaks loose just to make sure it was actually going to be **** breaking loose. JMO. I do feel bad for the dog, but from the officer's point of view I don't think the situation was totally out of line.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I wish I could be so perfect. As hard as I try, there have been times when my dogs have done exactly this.
> 
> I have two small children who will open the door and leave it open. It can get a little crazy when you have kids and dogs.
> 
> Our back yard is hard fenced and we have an invisible fence in the front yard so if one of the kids lets them out they are still contained. Nice to know so many would blame me if a trigger happy cop shot my dog dead in my FRONT YARD.


 
You know what, your right the more I think of it. The Officer should have waited till the dog was all over him, at that time he should have used a tazer, when that didn't work, he could have tried the baton and OC spray while trying to maybe handcuff him? This Officer was not up on his positive reinforcement techniques that's for sure.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is certainly in this thread. You expect a cop to do his job while unrestrained dogs are charging him. Unreal. Ever see the sign, I can make it to the fence in 2.8 seconds, can you? With a GSD behind a fence?

There was probably not TIME for the officer to do more than shout STOP! and then draw and fire. It was not like he could have mosied back to the cruiser and pull out a catch pole and get the dog under control before dealing with the truck and its meat sellers. 

A person can sue you if she is walking down the side walk or the road, and your dog frightens her so that she slips and falls and injures herself. So, keeping a dog "loose" around your house is a risky business. I expect it is an accident waiting to happen. 

I do not get dogs so that they can bark and growl at strangers, sorry. 

If a cop kills my dog after entering my house or kennels due to a bad address or bad tip, yeah I am going to be crazy mad. But if a police officer cannot do his job on the street in front of your home because the dog is charging at him with no visible restraint, then yes, the officer will have to do something, and he probably did not have time to reach for the least amount of force to stop a threat. 

They should not HAVE to deal with your dog. They should be able to do their job.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Yes it does. Cops cannot shoot peoples dogs in their yard. You are nuts if you think that is acceptable.


 
I'm not trying to argue with you but YES they can shoot your dog in your yard and as a matter of fact if one of the owners came running at the cop with a weapon he can shoot them too. As LEO's we have the right to defend ourselves if there is a threat, there was a real threat there and he stopped it. My suggestion to you is make sure your yard is marked that an invisible fence is installed but even with that you are taking a chance.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I wish I could be so perfect. As hard as I try, there have been times when my dogs have done exactly this.
> 
> I have two small children who will open the door and leave it open. It can get a little crazy when you have kids and dogs.
> 
> Our back yard is hard fenced and we have an invisible fence in the front yard so if one of the kids lets them out they are still contained. Nice to know so many would blame me if a trigger happy cop shot my dog dead in my FRONT YARD.


I hope this news story has opened your eyes then. If your dogs are charging people you need to 1 TRAIN YOUR DOG and 2 NEVER LEAVE YOUR DOG OUTSIDE UNATTENDED 

Kids are not an excuse. Tell your kids not to open the door, lock the door, etc.. 

Like it or not the cop was justified. So if you're at risk you better fix it because it would be your fault.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I wish I could be so perfect. As hard as I try, there have been times when my dogs have done exactly this.
> 
> *I have two small children who will open the door and leave it open. It can get a little crazy when you have kids and dogs. *
> 
> Our back yard is hard fenced and we have an invisible fence in the front yard so if one of the kids lets them out they are still contained.* Nice to know so many would blame me if a trigger happy cop shot my dog dead in my FRONT YARD*.


Yes, I would be ripping you a new one if that happened. How come the kids are not trained NOT to open the front door? If they are not old enough or big enough to open the door and keep the dogs contained, then you should have a rule that they are not allowed to open that door. Easy. 

My sister's kids are not allowed to open the door and they do not. An adult opens the door, every time. 

Poor management is why most dogs get killed. It was certainly the case in this incident. It may be you next because your attitude is, oh well, I am not perfect, yes my dogs have charged at people barking and growling, my kids leave the door open and they get out, it is hard to own kids and dogs. 

How is THAT ok???

It is Ok, because we will blame the police officer. OK, now I get it. That is why it is so important that the cop is wrong in this incident. You can see it happening to your own dogs and you are not willing to do a thing to ensure it will not.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> SO the officer couldn't use pepper spray, or a baton? The dog was still on the owners property. How can anyone justify this? You are allowed to have a barking and growling dog contained on your property. The dog never left his yard!


To the cop, the dog was not contained!!! No indicaters for invisible fencing, dog charging off a porch, no barriers. How is that contained? You are not allowed to have a barking, growling, CHARGING dog on your property without containment. In the officers eyes, there was NO containment.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Smh!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

selzer said:


> It was not like he could have mosied back to the cruiser and pull out a catch pole and get the dog under control before dealing with the truck and its meat sellers.


She wasn't in a cruiser, she was on foot patrol and shot the dog when it was still closer to the house than it was to her, which is what makes it so upsetting. The truck wasn't even the right truck, it belonged to the house. 
I'm not saying I could have done better, but that's why I shouldn't be a cop.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Smh??? Uhm, what does that stand for?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax's Mom said:


> She wasn't in a cruiser, she was on foot patrol and shot the dog when it was still closer to the house than it was to her, which is what makes it so upsetting. The truck wasn't even the right truck, it belonged to the house.
> I'm not saying I could have done better, but that's why I shouldn't be a cop.


 
Was she a woman? I read the account, and the kid said, "HE killed my dog!" The capt was a woman, I think but not the officer that shot the dog. I did not read that she was on foot patrol. I we reading two different accounts?

I will go back and read it again.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> Smh??? Uhm, what does that stand for?


Shaking my head? Maybe?


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> Was she a woman? I read the account, and the kid said, "HE killed my dog!" The capt was a woman, I think but not the officer that shot the dog. I did not read that she was on foot patrol. I we reading two different accounts?
> 
> I will go back and read it again.


She was on foot patrol selzer and that may have made it even harder, where was he or she going to go? Run? It does suck they lost a dog but a learning lesson for everyone I guess.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, see the bit about foot patrol, and looking for a suspicious person, white pick up. I do not see anything about this being a woman officer though. 

How does a police officer from the outside know that THE white pick up belonged to one of the residents friends? How does the officer KNOW that the dog has NEVER bitten anyone? 

Sorry, but the dog was killed because the owners allowed it to run rampant in the front yard, barking and charging at people. And because they do not get it that this was their fault, they will replace this dog with another one who will probably act exactly the same.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

selzer said:


> Ok, see the bit about foot patrol, and looking for a suspicious person, white pick up. I do not see anything about this being a woman officer though.
> 
> How does a police officer from the outside know that THE white pick up belonged to one of the residents friends? How does the officer KNOW that the dog has NEVER bitten anyone?
> 
> Sorry, but the dog was killed because the owners allowed it to run rampant in the front yard, barking and charging at people. And because they do not get it that this was their fault, they will replace this dog with another one who will probably act exactly the same.


And even if he hadn't seen the white truck he was looking for, what if he had just been trying to knock on the door to ask if they had seen the suspicious person??? The cop could have been walking up the drive way to get to the front door. A cop cant walk up to a front door without being charged by a dog?


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## Smoktya (Jun 8, 2010)

Coming from a person who has been "mauled" by a dog (Chow-chow), i can fully understand where the LEO is coming from. It is not a pleasant thing having a dog charge after you and possibly inflict damage upon you. Golden's are not small dogs and they do have some nice sized canines. Maybe i am a little paranoid on certain areas (as you can imagine), but my gun is always on me when i go for a walk with my GSD. I am a law-abiding citizen and I will protect myself if I have to. I have some bigs dogs roaming around in my neighborhood with underground fences and they do charge when they are out, but unless you lived around here, you wouldn't know the fence existed. Until you have had the situation stare you in the face, you shouldn't point fingers.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> SO the officer couldn't use pepper spray, or a baton? .


A baton is typcially 16 inches. 
OC spray (pepper spray) is effective within 5-7 feet. This is subject to conditions. And not all dogs are affected by it. 
Both of those options leave no other options if they fail. 



Hansel & Gretel said:


> The dog was still on the owners property. How can anyone justify this? You are allowed to have a barking and growling dog contained on your property. The dog never left his yard!
> 
> I have an invisible fence too. My GSD will bark at people they don't know that get near the yard. I am pretty sure most GSD do that as well. And I am pretty sure there is nothing illegal, anywhere, when a contained dog runs in his yard and barks at strangers. That's exactly why a lot of people get dogs to begin with..


Again, the officer didn't know the dog was *contained*. 
Contained or not, particularly when people can't tell the dog is contained, this in not acceptable behavior. 




Hansel & Gretel said:


> All I can say is it's a good thing mail carriers and UPS driver are not armed. We would have a lot more dead dogs.


Which is exactly why I don't allow my dogs to exhibit this type of behavior. 


As for the white truck, knowing NOW that the truck wasn't the one the officer was looking for is of no consequence. The officer did not know that at the time and was taking reasonable action to follow through with the complaint.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

In another article, a witness (neighbor) says the cop was in the dogs yard, which is huge by the way and the dog got up, barked twice and the officer fired. Like ten feet from the dogs porch and over a hundred feet from the road. That is crazy and the officer was wrong to shoot. Period. There is no way that can be be justified (but most of you are doing your best)

Jonesboro Family: Police Shoot, Kill Dog - Atlanta News Story - WGCL Atlanta


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

This one is even better. I am sure the dog and owner were in the wrong here as well.

Lexington Police Officer Kills Dog In Yard | LEX18.com | Lexington, Kentucky


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Where are you getting this? ten feet from the house and 100 feet from the road? It is not in this article that you listed. 

The person said it was not an attack dog. So the owner would have been perfectly satsified if the officer shot your GSD, or a rotty or a pit bull. But his Golden Retriever should be safe because, afterall, everyone knows what great dogs they are. The officer should know that the dog was a great hunting dog, who just liked to bark at strangers. 

If it is ok for our "attack" dogs it should be ok for others.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

watch the video and you can see it with your own eyes


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

The video is at the bottom of the story. It won't let me embed or link to it so you'll have to just click on the video player at the bottom of the story.

Jonesboro Family: Police Shoot, Kill Dog - Atlanta News Story - WGCL Atlanta


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The officer did have a right to shoot the dog. He had no idea that there was an invisible fence(I think they are stupid anyways.). I don't expect every cop to know dog behavior either. 

I have not seen an invisible fence in person. Even if I had an invisible fence, I still wouldn't just let my dog run loose in the front yard without me out there watching and my dog was super well trained, but I would still have the dog on a leash. Invisible fences are not 100% effective. 

The owner was at fault here. They need to take responsibility, by getting a new fence, training their dog properly and controlling the dog. And there is probably more to the story. But based on what is given, the owner is 100% to blame.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> The officer did have a right to shoot the dog. He had no idea that there was an invisible fence(I think they are stupid anyways.). I don't expect every cop to know dog behavior either.
> 
> I have not seen an invisible fence in person. Even if I had an invisible fence, I still wouldn't just let my dog run loose in the front yard without me out there watching and my dog was super well trained, but I would still have the dog on a leash. Invisible fences are not 100% effective.
> 
> The owner was at fault here. They need to take responsibility, by getting a new fence, training their dog properly and controlling the dog. And there is probably more to the story. But based on what is given, the owner is 100% to blame.


I have "seen" an invisible fence in use. At first I was pretty startled when the dog came running down the driveway barking, and no owner in sight! I can definately see how it could come off as a threat.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> In another article, a witness (neighbor) says the cop was in the dogs yard, which is huge by the way and the dog got up, barked twice and the officer fired. Like ten feet from the dogs porch and over a hundred feet from the road. That is crazy and the officer was wrong to shoot. Period. There is no way that can be be justified (but most of you are doing your best)
> 
> Jonesboro Family: Police Shoot, Kill Dog - Atlanta News Story - WGCL Atlanta


Why is the fact that the cop was in the owners front yard so huge? A cop has a right to be in your front yard, your driveway, if he has reasonable suspicion.

If there is NO WAY this can be justified....prove it. Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. Give reasons, give laws that protect the owner and dog against this type of thing. You cant.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

PupperLove said:


> I have "seen" an invisible fence in use. At first I was pretty startled when the dog came running down the driveway barking, and no owner in sight! I can definately see how it could come off as a threat.


What does it do when something or someone hits it? I am thinking it sends an electric to whatever hits it. I will never own one and don't plan to.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Hansel & Gretel - Admit it. Selzer nailed you. You are taking this story much too personally, because you see yourself in this situation. I strongly suggest that you be proactive. I have kids and a GSD. My kids aren't little any more, but they were when my dog was young. Now the dog and kids are old. Regardless, I trained my kids and dog way back when. My kids never opened the door and let the dog out. The dog never went out the door without my permission. It is called being responsible. As parents and dog owners - that is our job. I have managed to keep my dog safe for the almost 11 years I have had her. She will be 13 soon. If I can do that - so can you. You said you have a backyard with a "real" fence? Dog goes out back, not out front. Please make changes before this sad tale becomes your sad tale.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Jessie, The dog wears a collar. If he gets too close to the invisible fence, he gets a shock. No one else - just the dog with the collar. Hope that is what you were asking. Sorry if I am confused.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Jessie, The dog wears a collar. If he gets too close to the invisible fence, he gets a shock. No one else - just the dog with the collar. Hope that is what you were asking. Sorry if I am confused.


Yes, that I was wondering about. I have never seen an invisible fence so I wasn't sure how they worked. Thanks.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Hansel & Gretel - Admit it. Selzer nailed you. You are taking this story much too personally, because you see yourself in this situation. I strongly suggest that you be proactive. I have kids and a GSD. My kids aren't little any more, but they were when my dog was young. Now the dog and kids are old. Regardless, I trained my kids and dog way back when. My kids never opened the door and let the dog out. The dog never went out the door without my permission. It is called being responsible. As parents and dog owners - that is our job. I have managed to keep my dog safe for the almost 11 years I have had her. She will be 13 soon. If I can do that - so can you. You said you have a backyard with a "real" fence? Dog goes out back, not out front. Please make changes before this sad tale becomes your sad tale.


I have no idea what what you mean "nailed me". And yes I am taking this personally because I could see myself in this situation. 

I think you guys are wrong. I am astounded that so many think its okay for a cop to discharge his weapon, killing an animal on private property.

The only comfort i have here is that the reporters in the video were as incredulous as me.

I will make a prediction here. The cop will be disciplined for his actions and the owner will sue and take a settlement out of court. 

Rarely do I ever side against law enforcement and agree with the tv media. But I don't want to live in a society where people think it is okay for the government to enter private property and kill lawfully owned animals because they felt "threatened".

I will link to another video and story that illustrates my feeling here that the cop used horrible judgment.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

This is a few years old but makes a good point. First read the story then watch the video. The story gives you the info the cops had at the time of the stop.
My point to this is, read what the officers version of the story is and then watch the video.

I think this is the case far to often.

Story Traffic stop traumatizes family
Video 




Note the officer was "threatened"


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

So you feel threatened by man, you tase him, a dog, you shoot to kill. That's logic for you.... *eye roll* don't tase be bro!!


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I have seen dogs run through invisible fences. I was thinking about an invisible fence and the salesman told me about the training and how after a brief training period the collar was only needed for occasional retraining.



> So you feel threatened by man, you tase him, a dog, you shoot to kill. That's logic for you.... *eye roll* don't tase be bro!!


I can establish communication with a human. While I can sometimes have rudimentary communication with a dog that is not charging, when the dog is charging there is not enough visible body language to know the dogs intention.


I do not carry a taser but my ASP baton and OC spray would permit the dog to get too close for safety. I would not want to hurt a dog and I also worry that an injured dog could be a worse threat. I am sure the officer had the same thoughts (but the officer might have had the tazer). 

I think for the sake of the safety of the community the folks who think that a dog that is charging an officer should be left alone until it starts biting should become LEOs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am actually not sure how to feel about this one. 

It's my worst nightmare that somebody could shoot my dogs over here. 

I can understand where the cop is coming from. He doesn't know that there was a fence but at the same time, is it really true? Was the dog going at him in a truly aggressive manner? Most people can't differ aggressive manner from simply "Hey, who are you?" or even playgrowl. 

I've seen many irresponsible dog owners around here. They just open the door and let the dogs go outside unsupervised. I open the door too but I never let them out of sight. I am either standing in the window, watching them and re-call them when they attempt to run around the corner or I am right out there with them. 

Your neighbors may know that there is an invisible fence but how should the cop have known? Shooting however, is NEVER the answer! 

I just don't understand why they always have to shoot when they could be using a taser.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It has been my experience that if your dog acts "aggressively" toward an officer, it can be shot. Even in your home or on your property.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> This is a few years old but makes a good point. First read the story then watch the video. The story gives you the info the cops had at the time of the stop.
> My point to this is, read what the officers version of the story is and then watch the video.
> 
> I think this is the case far to often.
> ...


What was the point of this? Are we now just opening the thread up for all examples of bad Policing. 
No one denies there are situations where Police are in the wrong. And I respect that you feel the original topic was wrong (although I do disagree) but showing bad examples of Police does not make your case. There are good and bad in every profession. All should not be judged by the actions of a few. I can post tons of examples of the GOOD Police do. It proves nothing.


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## DonP (Apr 13, 2009)

It seems just too easy for cops to solve their dog problems by shooting them. They don't have to consider any other solution because it's always justified.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> Shooting however, is NEVER the answer!


I have never had to shoot, I hope I never do, but there are times when it is a valid answer and times it is the only answer.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I am actually not sure how to feel about this one.
> 
> It's my worst nightmare that somebody could shoot my dogs over here.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Mrs K, I hope your setteling into the new place and you are enjoying the good old USA!! Anyway to respond to your question, the article said that there was NO markers to indicate that there was an invisible fence. The second thing I would like for you to understand is a dog can be a deadly weapon or cause great injury to the Officer, with that, we are not going to pull a tazer on a dog, a guy with a knife, a guy with a gun etc. Yourself being a dog owner knows how fast a dog can close on a person right? Would YOU want to wait till the dog got within 15 feet to use a tazer? I would hope not. And the last statement......shooting is NEVER the answer...really? I can give you 10 reasons or stories off the top of my head. Not all are dog related but the way you wrote it is so general?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

We had neighbors with a yellow lab...and an invisible fence. One day when I was walking my two small children past their house...he charged us...came right through the fence into the road very aggressively. Lucky for us...the neighbors came rushing out of their house and called him off...it was terrifying. I never walked past their house again when he was out.


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## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

Myamom said:


> We had neighbors with a yellow lab...and an invisible fence. One day when I was walking my two small children past their house...he charged us...came right through the fence into the road very aggressively. Lucky for us...the neighbors came rushing out of their house and called him off...it was terrifying. I never walked past their house again when he was out.


I had the same experience in my neighborhood. A home with a Gordon Setter. The first time I ran past the house, it charged aggressively but stopped at the sidewalk. I had no idea they had an electric fence and it was terrifying. I just recently noticed that they now have a real fence, so I wonder if he started going through the electric one.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

DonP said:


> It seems just too easy for cops to solve their dog problems by shooting them. They don't have to consider any other solution because it's always justified.


You have that perception because the only thing that the media reports and the only thing that is in the public's face, are the bad stories, the stories where the cop ends up shooting and killing the dog. 
The media is NOT going to report the cases where the cops had other options and used them, the case where the cop pulled a tazer, or had the time to call AC or bring out a catch pole himself. That kind of stuff happens EVERY DAY, so it's not news that will catch someones eye. That's why is "seems" too easy.

If the media reported every single time a cop handled a loose dog without killing it, your perception would be different. You would have been exposed to all the instances when the cop didn't have to use lethal force, so when situations like this happen, the perspective of how often this actually happens would be accurate.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Hansel & Gretel,

I said that Selzer nailed you because I was reiterating what she said about you seeing yourself in this story. You admit this is true - you do see yourself in this story. One problem I have with the video is that the family was interviewed. The mother and son were not there. They did not see what happened. Why wasn't the neighbor - the eyewitness interviewed? The family can't testify in court to what the neighbor saw. That would be hearsay, would it not?

It is clear that you are never going to change your mind. In your eyes, the officer is wrong. No matter that the LEOs here are telling you the officer was within his rights. You can go on thinking the officer was wrong. My point to you is that you are doing NOTHING to make sure this doesn't happen to you. 

Here is an analogy....My uncle owned a large farm in Georgia. A dirt road divided his farm. Sometimes people drove fast down that road. Once, while I was visiting, one of his dogs was hit and killed by a car. Another time, one of his dogs was poisoned. I have no idea how many dogs he lost from being hit, poisoned or shot. He could have fenced in a safe area for his dogs. I imagine he thought that was a stupid idea. I imagine he figured it was his right to allow his dogs to roam, to be in the road, to have their freedom. Maybe so - maybe that was his right and putting up any enclosure was ridiculous. Doesn't make his dogs any less dead. He can blame the drivers that hit his dogs, the farmers that poisoned and shot his dogs, but that doesn't bring the dogs back.

So again....Blame the officer all you want. The dog is still dead. Knowing this situation, and knowing you could be in the same situation, you are in a position to make changes to keep your dog safe. The decision is yours. Make changes, or keep doing what you're doing. It's on you.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

There's a GR around the corner from us. And another neighbor has a Pit Bull. The Pit is a GREAT dog. The GR charges, snarls & barks. Not all GR are friendly. And if a dog is charging & barking at a cop out doing his job, he has to protect himself. Too bad he also couldn't couldn't slap the crapola outta the owners.

I'll never understand the cop-bashers. Walk an hour in their shoes. Glad there's only a couple (this time) bad-mouthing the cop. Hope you never need to call them in an emergency.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I don't get where the owners are at fault? Are invisible fences illegal? Is leaving a dog in it's yard that's contained illegal?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

G-burg said:


> I don't get where the owners are at fault? Are invisible fences illegal? Is leaving a dog in it's yard that's contained illegal?


The cop couldn't see the fence. The fence is invisible because it's a wire buried underground. It reacts to a collar around the dog's neck when the dog gets too close and shocks the dog. It's supposed to contain the dog ONLY. I think a lot of people get it because it looks better on their yard or something. 
But to a person, it doesn't LOOK contained. You can't tell it's there because it's a buried, electrical mechanism that reacts just to the collar around the dog's neck.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Of course, there is balance. I have had officers help me catch stray dogs. I know several of the officers in my town. Good people and, of course, we appreciate their work.

That does not change what I know of guns drawn on dogs and/or used on dogs. I consider it a real possibility. Sure, you can do what you can, but some of us own a breed that guards. If a dog is threatening, it can be in harm's way. It does not take much for some people to consider a dog threatening.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

G-burg said:


> I don't get where the owners are at fault? Are invisible fences illegal? Is leaving a dog in it's yard that's contained illegal?


From what I read in the story the yard was not marked to show there was an invisible fence in the yard, no flags, sign, nothing. So it actually was "invisible" to the Officer as well, he had no idea the fence was in the ground.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

G-burg said:


> I don't get where the owners are at fault? Are invisible fences illegal? Is leaving a dog in it's yard that's contained illegal?


I agree!


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I agree!


I understand what you are saying for sure. Invisible fences are a more "natural" setting and some don't like the look of a "hard" fence. But please try to put yourself in the Officers boots. You DON'T know the fence is in the ground because it wasn't marked with a sign or flags and you have a dog charging at you, what do you do? Honest answer, what do you do? There is NO squad car to run to because it said he or she was on foot patrol. A tazer couldn't be used because the dog would have to be practically right on top of him and the same goes for the OC spray. It's a bad thing to have to shoot a dog but I still have to side with the Officer.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> I understand what you are saying for sure. Invisible fences are a more "natural" setting and some don't like the look of a "hard" fence. But please try to put yourself in the Officers boots. You DON'T know the fence is in the ground because it wasn't marked with a sign or flags and you have a dog charging at you, what do you do? Honest answer, what do you do? There is NO squad car to run to because it said he or she was on foot patrol. A tazer couldn't be used because the dog would have to be practically right on top of him and the same goes for the OC spray. It's a bad thing to have to shoot a dog but I still have to side with the Officer.


I'm sure that people are aware that there is such a thing as an invisible fence.

If I were that officer I would have backed into the street or gone into someone elses yard, I would not have shot the dog until it left it's yard or got close to me where I felt that I would be attacked. I mean did the cop shoot it from 30 feet away or did he shoot it from 5-10 feet away?

I wouldn't let the dog get extremely close to me but I wouldn't shoot the dog from far away either.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> From what I read in the story the yard was not marked to show there was an invisible fence in the yard, no flags, sign, nothing. So it actually was "invisible" to the Officer as well, he had no idea the fence was in the ground.


I understand...

So is there a law that states if you have an invisible fence it must be marked? I'm just not getting where the owner is at fault.. because I'm sure in his mind he felt his dog was contained and safe in it's yard.

I mean I feel that mine are safe too when I let them in their fenced yard, that has locks on the gates.. but I'm now feeling if a cop was to jump my fence after a suspect (and they have) or whatever, that my dogs would be shot, because I can guarantee you that my dogs are gonna charge..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My issue with invisible fencing is that it was meant to be a training tool, not a barrier. In that sense, yes it is the owner's fault. However, what is up with all these policeman choosing to pull a gun instead of using some other kind of force?

And how many people own dogs that are going to listen to a stranger? I don't think it's reasonable to assume a dog will listen to you if they don't know you. In this country...whose to say the dog is even trained in English?


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

LaRen616 said:


> If I were that officer I would have backed into the street or gone into someone elses yard, I would not have shot the dog until it left it's yard or got close to me where I felt that I would be attacked. I mean did the cop shoot it from 30 feet away or did he shoot it from 5-10 feet away?
> 
> I wouldn't let the dog get extremely close to me but I wouldn't shoot the dog from far away either.




The thing is, you aren't that officer. We all handle things different, we all have our own perspective. Just look at this thread. All of us are reading the same info and comin to different conclusions. Our own experiences influence these I am sure others would have handled it differently as well, but that officer was the one facing the dog at that point time with their experiences influencing their perception on this situation. 
None of us would even agree on how close too close is. It depends on many things including how comfortable we are with our ability to hit the moving target. 

Where I am, e-fences are extremely rare. Yes, I am aware they exist but honesty if I were walking by someone's house and the dog ran out, my very first thought would be the dog is not contained. 
Again, personal experiences influence how we see things. To someone who uses this fence, their first thought may be to assume there is an e-fence.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

novarobin said:


> The thing is, you aren't that officer. We all handle things different, we all have our own perspective. Just look at this thread. All of us are reading the same info and comin to different conclusions. Our own experiences influence these I am sure others would have handled it differently as well, but that officer was the one facing the dog at that point time with their experiences influencing their perception on this situation.
> None of us would even agree on how close too close is. It depends on many things including how comfortable we are with our ability to hit the moving target.
> 
> Where I am, e-fences are extremely rare. Yes, I am aware they exist but honesty if I were walking by someone's house and the dog ran out, my very first thought would be the dog is not contained.
> Again, personal experiences influence how we see things. To someone who uses this fence, their first thought may be to assume there is an e-fence.


The dog was in his yard, I could see it if the dog was on a street or running through multiple yards but it came from off of it's porch.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, my friend was being asked about a situation... he was not a suspect or involved. His dog got a gun pulled on it as the officer came into his yard. If a suspect was pursued through my yard, I would indeed be concerned for my dogs.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

A shock collar with proximity activation is a deterrent from the dog passing the boundry. It is not a containment. Some dogs will take the jolt to pass the buried wire and then trap themselves outside the yard until they are ready to get another jolt to come back in.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

G-burg said:


> So is there a law that states if you have an invisible fence it must be marked? I'm just not getting where the owner is at fault.. because I'm sure in his mind he felt his dog was contained and safe in it's yard.
> 
> I mean I feel that mine are safe too when I let them in their fenced yard, that has locks on the gates.. but I'm now feeling if a cop was to jump my fence after a suspect (and they have) or whatever, that my dogs would be shot, because I can guarantee you that my dogs are gonna charge..


The police have a right to chase suspects into a fenced yard or house, when they are in hot pursuit. That was not the case in this situation. However, cops are allowed by law to by in your unfenced yard and driveway if they are looking for a suspect and have reasonable suspicion that the perp is somewhere on your property. 
The officer is this case was looking for a prowler, a suspicious person, in an area that had a history of burgleries. He saw a truck that matched the discription of the perp's in the driveway of the dog owners house. That is reasonable suspicion. He walks across the front yard, toward the front door. 

The cop was doing his job.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

LaRen616 said:


> The dog was in his yard, I could see it if the dog was on a street or running through multiple yards but it came from off of it's porch.


It was running towards the officer, barking. The officer did not know the dog was contained by an e-fence. 
As I said in my first post, I don't know all details like how far it was, etc. 

As for the question of why it was the owners fault (at least in some part), they were aware of this behavior and allowed it. They stated he never bit anyone. Problem is, those walking past don't know his bite history. And as we learned, don't know he is contained either.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

novarobin said:


> The thing is, you aren't that officer. We all handle things different, we all have our own perspective. Just look at this thread. All of us are reading the same info and comin to different conclusions. Our own experiences influence these I am sure others would have handled it differently as well, but that officer was the one facing the dog at that point time with their experiences influencing their perception on this situation.
> None of us would even agree on how close too close is. It depends on many things including how comfortable we are with our ability to hit the moving target.


Agreed. You weren't there. You have no right to judge. We don't have the intimate details about exactly how far away the dog was when the officer shot him. And we don't know exactly how the dog was acting. And we don't know if the cop had time to back away. Even if the dog had never bitten before, that doesnt matter. The cop couldn't have known that. 

The police officer had a right to be there. The dog didn't know he was a cop, he was defending his home. 

The reason it is ALL the owners fault is because she admitted to knowing that he dog would charge and bark at people. That is asking for disaster when the dog is uncontained (to the casual observer).


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> You are allowed to have a barking and growling dog contained on your property. The dog never left his yard!


There is a huge, huge difference between a dog giving an alert bark in its yard, and a dog that is charging at you, barking - especially if there is an invisible fence only and it is not marked in any way. 

I am forever annoyed when walking my dog, leashed, at having to go past neighbors' properties where dogs are simply allowed to run loose. If they're contained by a fence, I don't mind if they bark once or twice and then stop because I know there is a fence keeping them away and me (and my dog) safe. If they're contained by an invisible fence, I DO mind because I don't know if they are contained. It's easy for a dog to go through an invisible fence. It happens all the time. And if the fence isn't marked, I don't even know it's there. Am I supposed to be a mind reader?

If you leave dogs outside unsupervised with nothing more than an e-fence, then don't be surprised if your dog is shot or kicked or hit with something when he charges at another person or another dog unprovoked. Walking past your yard should not be considered "provocation" for your dog to charge off the porch and at a person. If it is, you need to install a proper fence or you need to be out there and supervise (leash) your dog.



> I have two small children who will open the door and leave it open. It can get a little crazy when you have kids and dogs.


This is an excuse. Plain as that. If you cannot teach your children not to open doors, and you cannot supervise them in a way that keeps them from opening doors, the doors should be locked. Same goes for the dogs. If your dogs bark at every passer-by in your front yard, then they either don't need to be in the front yard (e-fence or not) or they need to be supervised when they're out there. I'm sure your neighbors just love it when your GSDs bark at every one that passes your yard.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I'm sure that people are aware that there is such a thing as an invisible fence.
> 
> If I were that officer I would have backed into the street or gone into someone elses yard, I would not have shot the dog until it left it's yard or got close to me where I felt that I would be attacked. I mean did the cop shoot it from 30 feet away or did he shoot it from 5-10 feet away?
> 
> I wouldn't let the dog get extremely close to me but I wouldn't shoot the dog from far away either.


 Your reaction time is not that good....trust me. Do the exercise yourself, put your dog on the porch and walk 30 ft away, no better yet walk 50 ft away and call your dog to you, make him run fast to you and see if you can get to a neighbors yard or back onto the street BEFORE the dog is on you. Unless your dog has only 2 legs he will be on top of you in seconds.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And wouldn't running from the dog possibly make him run faster? If you run...well..Game ON for the dog!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Klamari said:


> Agreed. You weren't there. You have no right to judge. We don't have the intimate details about exactly how far away the dog was when the officer shot him. And we don't know exactly how the dog was acting. And we don't know if the cop had time to back away. Even if the dog had never bitten before, that doesnt matter. The cop couldn't have known that.
> 
> The police officer had a right to be there. *The dog didn't know he was a cop, he was defending his home. *
> 
> The reason it is ALL the owners fault is because she admitted to knowing that he dog would charge and bark at people. That is asking for disaster when the dog is uncontained (to the casual observer).


I am not judging, I am giving my opinion (which by the way I am allowed to do). I didn't say wow that cop is a real piece of poop, or he's an idiot, I said what I would have done in that situation.

Exactly, the dog was doing HIS job.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If a dog threatens someone, it can be killed. Keeping dogs safe is not an easy job, especially if it involves dogs who will guard. Sometimes, it just might not be possible to do.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Exactly, the dog was doing HIS job.


Right, so I'm NOT going to allow this type of no-win situation (when the dog isn't at fault, and the cop isn't at fault, but my dog is dead) happen to me. I take measures to prevent this type of situation because I am not ignorant of possible conflicts, or too stubborn to admit that I can do more ensure the safety of my dogs.

I take RESPONSIBILITY for the safety of my dogs. Being responsible dog owners means that I take every measure to ensure their safety, with current laws and police SOP in mind.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

The dog was 7 years old... I'm guessing this wasn't the first time it was left out by itself like that. I'm guessing it likely _would_ have stopped.
It isn't the owner's fault or the dog's fault the police officer didn't know.

It _is_ possible that I'm a little overly sensitive about the issue of police officers overstepping their authority given the recent investigation of the Toronto Police inventing "secret laws", beating and falsely arresting citizens.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> The dog was 7 years old... I'm guessing this wasn't the first time it was left out by itself like that. I'm guessing it likely _would_ have stopped.
> It isn't the owner's fault or the dog's fault the police officer didn't know.


How is it the police officers fault that he didn't know the dog MIGHT stop?? He walks up to a house, large dog comes barreling off the porch, barking and charging....you expect him to just jump to the conclusion "oh wait, he might just be playing around, he'll probably stop".....riiiiiight. What if it had been a dog that wasn't going to stop and the cop hesitated? The cop gets bit.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Klamari said:


> Right, so I'm NOT going to allow this type of no-win situation (when the dog isn't at fault, and the cop isn't at fault, but my dog is dead) happen to me. I take measures to prevent this type of situation because I am not ignorant of possible conflicts, or too stubborn to admit that I can do more ensure the safety of my dogs.
> 
> I take RESPONSIBILITY for the safety of my dogs. Being responsible dog owners means that I take every measure to ensure their safety, with current laws and police SOP in mind.


Exactly!
That is what I tried to say in an earlier post. I have blocked a window on our stairs because our dogs frightened our mail man. I do not allow my dogs, even my super friendly Lab, to be in any situation where they could be seen as a threat. I don't have an e-fence specifically because I m not confident it would contain my GSDs (I am sure it would my Lab). I also know they would display this type of behavior. Because my GSDs are escape artists they aren't even unsupervised in our fenced backyard. 

I also agree with Jaxs mom - the dog probably would have stopped. Sadly, that was not the outcome. It is not the officers fault for not knowing this.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

novarobin said:


> I do not allow my dogs, even my super friendly Lab, to be in any situation where they could be seen as a threat. I don't have an e-fence specifically because I m not confident it would contain my GSDs (I am sure it would my Lab). I also know they would display this type of behavior. Because my GSDs are escape artists they aren't even unsupervised in our fenced backyard.


I agree. Like you, I KNOW there are measures you can take to prevent this type of thing from happening because I do it right now. My lab/chow will display aggressive behavior to strangers who walk up to our back gate. She gets that deep throat bark, and sounds pretty scary. I doubt she would ever attack someone, but I dont expect other people to know that. 

Some stupid person jumped our 6ft fence one time and she chased him right back over it. I was standing right there. These behaviors she displays is why she is NOT in our front yard "contained" by nothing by an Efence. She is rarely, if ever, outside in our fenced backyard alone. These preventative measures is why she is still with me after 12 years.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Klamari said:


> How is it the police officers fault that he didn't know the dog MIGHT stop?? He walks up to a house, large dog comes barreling off the porch, barking and charging....you expect him to just jump to the conclusion "oh wait, he might just be playing around, he'll probably stop".....riiiiiight. What if it had been a dog that wasn't going to stop and the cop hesitated? The cop gets bit.


We can put a little twist on this....lets say you were with a child, a 2 year old child walking beside you, same thing, the dog comes running at you while he is barking and he's closing fast.....what's the first thing that comes to your mind
1- I'll bet there is an invisible fence in the ground, so he'll probably stop
2- I hope this dog stops because it appears he may hurt me
3- I should probably just run away, maybe look for a tree to climb
4- These people are def. not getting a Christmas card this year if I get bit
5- Draw weapon, point and shoot at obvious threat


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> It isn't the owner's fault or the dog's fault the police officer didn't know.


I sign might have helped. Of course the officer would be assuming the dog was the one that had the collar on. What if there is an invisible fence sign and another dog was in the yard. Just as the dog should be trained to stop when the collar shocks, the dog should also be trained to not charge towards people on the sidewalk. This was not a puppy. 


I am very interested in the idea that the officer should have known that the dog might stop at the buried wire. I was not in class the day the academy covered omnipotence. Just because you know your dog does not mean that I know your dog.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> 1- I'll bet there is an invisible fence in the ground, so he'll probably stop
> 2- I hope this dog stops because it appears he may hurt me
> 3- I should probably just run away, maybe look for a tree to climb
> 4- *These people are def. not getting a Christmas card this year if I get bit*
> 5- Draw weapon, point and shoot at obvious threat


LOL! yeah this one would get you safely home.....


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Klamari said:


> How is it the police officers fault that he didn't know the dog MIGHT stop??


Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not he who denies.
I come from a communist country, this principle is important to me 
How about we start arresting people in stores because they look like they might be stealing? How are police to know they're not actually going to steal something when they're walking around carrying merchandise looking all suspicious?


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I M going to be honest, part of why this gets me is because I make efforts to prevent my dogs from behaving that way (barking and charging). Much of this has to do with the fact I own a GSD and people are afraid of them in normal circumstances, even when they are behaving. I do what I can to ensure they aren't threatening at anytime. 
I feel that part of the reason this was allowed in this case is because the dog is a Golden. The owner stated he didn't bite, so they saw no risk. I have also seen on other forums suggestions that part of the reason people find this so offensive is the fact it was a GR. There are those who would change their tune if said dog had been a breed typically seen as "dangerous", like our GSDs. Obviously that isn't the feeling here. 
I don't think a dog of any breed, whether it is known as friendly or aggressive, large or small, should be allowed to be in a situation like this where it can charge and bark at people. The fact the dog was not obviously contained makes it worse.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> We can put a little twist on this....lets say you were with a child, a 2 year old child walking beside you, same thing, the dog comes running at you while he is barking and he's closing fast.....what's the first thing that comes to your mind
> 1- I'll bet there is an invisible fence in the ground, so he'll probably stop
> 2- I hope this dog stops because it appears he may hurt me
> 3- I should probably just run away, maybe look for a tree to climb
> ...


I guess for the average citizen.. It's gonna be #2 since most of us aren't carrying a gun!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Definitely #2 for me. Freeze and hope for the best.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

People stealing in stores are not a threat to someone's physical well being. 
The dog was not passive either, it was showing threat cues. If someone is running at you with a weapon in hand, you are justified in defending yourself without having to wait until that person actually commits the assault.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat. The burden of the proof lies upon him who affirms, not he who denies.
> I come from a communist country, this principle is important to me
> How about we start arresting people in stores because they look like they might be stealing? How are police to know they're not actually going to steal something when they're walking around carrying merchandise looking all suspicious?


That's not even close to the same thing. Hesitating to arrest a shoplifter is not going to get you seriously injured. 

If a suspect the police are chasing pulls out a gun, points it toward a cop, and runs toward him screaming......the cops are going to shoot him.



Jax08 said:


> Definitely #2 for me. Freeze and hope for the best.


yeah, I'm going to do a little more than "hope for the best" when it comes to my safety. I'm going to take a little more action than hope. If you want to take risks with your safety with the chance the dog might stop, that's on you. But people are not wrong for keeping themselves alive and uninjured. That's a basic human right.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Denali Girl said:


> We can put a little twist on this....lets say you were with a child, a 2 year old child walking beside you, same thing, the dog comes running at you while he is barking and he's closing fast.....what's the first thing that comes to your mind
> 1- I'll bet there is an invisible fence in the ground, so he'll probably stop
> 2- I hope this dog stops because it appears he may hurt me
> 3- I should probably just run away, maybe look for a tree to climb
> ...



None of the above would come into my mind. 

First thing I'd think would be "SCHEISSE!" 

I'd stop walking and reach for treats in my pockets. I always have treats on me.And if that doesn't work, I'll be going down on the dog. 

Also there is a way to turn yourself into an authority person and let yourself appear as such a threat that they run from you. 
But I recommend not doing it unless you really know what you are doing and you can read that dog in front of you. Most dogs run but there are the once that will take you down. That's how my dad usually selected and tested dogs.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Klamari said:


> That's not even close to the same thing. Hesitating to arrest a shoplifter is not going to get you seriously injured.
> 
> If a suspect the police are chasing pulls out a gun, points it toward a cop, and runs toward him screaming......the cops are going to shoot him.
> 
> ...


And *THAT'S* not the same thing 
The dog didn't pull out a gun, point it toward a cop, and run toward him screaming.
If the dog got a baton to the head (which police tend to be equipped with), no one would have an issue with this.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Well I guess we will all have to agree to disagree? Please don't always just blame the Officers unless you have walked a mile in our shoes. Have a Merry Christmas everyone!


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## Slag (Nov 23, 2010)

You can forget pepper spray as a viable option. As a former LEO I have been put in this situation before. We got a 911 call from a delivery driver at a fast food chain late one night. A dog had him trapped in his trailer. When I arrived there wasn't a dog in sight, but as soon as I stepped out of the car he was on me. I made a pretty bad mistake with where I had stopped because the driver was directly in my line of fire. I tried pepper spray and all it did was enrage the dog. Luckily he ran off for a few seconds before he came at me again, and I was able to reposition.

My asp would have been even less effective. The dog would have charged right past it.

I still have my boots with the teeth marks.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> And *THAT'S* not the same thing
> The dog didn't pull out a gun, point it toward a cop, and run toward him screaming.
> If the dog got a baton to the head (which police tend to be equipped with), no one would have an issue with this.


The dog did pull our a mouth full of teeth and an aggressive attitude. Dog bites can cause some serious injury, sometimes just as much as a bullet. Shoplifting isn't going to cause much physical injury at all. 

I think someone already mentioned this, but a baton is what, 16 inches long?? That's not a lot of room for a mistake, then the teeth are on you. Police have SOP for a reason, obviously they have found out that a baton is not effective in stopping a charging dog. 
And if the baton to head had killed to dog (entirely possible), you would have a problem with that too. 



Denali Girl said:


> Well I guess we will all have to agree to disagree? Please don't always just blame the Officers unless you have walked a mile in our shoes. Have a Merry Christmas everyone!


I agree to disagree. I dont think we are going to change each other's mind


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> We can put a little twist on this....lets say you were with a child, a 2 year old child walking beside you, same thing, the dog comes running at you while he is barking and he's closing fast.....what's the first thing that comes to your mind
> 1- I'll bet there is an invisible fence in the ground, so he'll probably stop
> *2- I hope this dog stops because it appears he may hurt me*
> 3- I should probably just run away, maybe look for a tree to climb
> ...


I definitly wouldn't run or panic.

I would puff myself up, get out my big, bossy and rough voice and brace myself. I would only fight him if he went to bite me. But shooting a dog that is running towards me? No, I think not. 

My cousins Rott runs at me and barks, he's not being aggressive, he's happy to see me. His bark sounds very aggressive but that's just how his bark sounds. I wouldn't shoot a dog unless I was positive that he was going to bite me. If I get bit then I get bit but I know I wouldn't want my dog shot over a "what if".

JUST MY OPINION.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I have a strong feeling why this upsets so many.. Is because it's becoming more and more prevalent and that's scary to a lot of pet owners.. Dogs in their homes, dogs in their yard, dogs now at the dog park..

Something needs to give..


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Klamari said:


> And if the baton to head had killed to dog (entirely possible), you would have a problem with that too.


I'm not that much of a bleeding heart, I just have a problem with my dog being used as target practice on my own property.
A police baton can be 20 inches to 3 feet long... plenty of room for self defence.
Ever been hit with one? One hit and you pretty much piss yourself. The only problem with a 3 foot long riot baton is that if something doesn't come within 3 feet of you, you don't get to kill it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would like for someone to point out in the constitution where we have the RIGHT to own dogs. It is not a RIGHT folks, it is a privilege. 

You may think of your dog as a family member. You may give his life equal weight as your spouse, your kids, and everyone outside of your family. You can do that -- but I do not have to. 

If I see your dog coming at me and I have the means of killing it, I have the RIGHT to defend myself. 

We are on a slipperly slope with dog ownership. A community can ban a breed, a list of breeds. I do not think it has happened yet, but I think they can probably come out with banning dogs over, say 40 pounds. Apartment complexes and hotels often restrict dogs to such size limits. 

The dog owner was at fault because they KNEW the dog barks at people while it is outside. It is simply not ok to let a dog appear threatening with no sign of restraint and no people around to manage the dog. Not ok. 

Officer was not there on a dog complaint. When he tried to do his JOB, the dog did what he has done before to people, and barked and came for him. The officer took the action he felt would keep him safe. Good for him. 

Dog owners need to stop being so irresponsible with their pets. It infuriates me because someday someone's ignorant action might affect whether or not I can own a dog. Someone leaves an infant in a swing with eight dogs and takes the ninth dog in for a bath. Baby is dead. I bet the next time BSL gets considered in THAT community, that incident will be considered and there will be discussion about Rotties being on the list. 

When our attitude is, it's my yard, so what if someone is barked at or my dog frightens someone, that what we get the dogs for. Well, those attitudes may mean dog ownership will be seriously limited in the future.

It is not a right, it is a privilege. We should go the extra mile to ensure that we do not lose such privileges. And leaving your dog out to terrorize the neighbors and such is NOT helping.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Klamari said:


> I agree to disagree. I dont think we are going to change each other's mind


I do love a good debate. I do enjoy other perspectives, even those that dont agree with mine, and IMO this thread was very civil but I agree it may be time to agree to disagree. 

Merry Christmas all.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

G-burg said:


> I have a strong feeling why this upsets so many.. Is because it's becoming more and more prevalent and that's scary to a lot of pet owners.. Dogs in their homes, dogs in their yard, dogs now at the dog park..
> 
> Something needs to give..


Is it really more prevalent? Or... is it a hot topic in the media?
I don't fear this happening to my dog. I keep my dog in a fenced yard AND supervised at all times. I keep him on a leash otherwise.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

G-burg said:


> I have a strong feeling why this upsets so many.. Is because it's becoming more and more prevalent and that's scary to a lot of pet owners.. Dogs in their homes, dogs in their yard, dogs now at the dog park..
> 
> Something needs to give..


Exactly, but if we don’t like police officers shooting into our yards, the government keeping records of our Google searches, TSA agents to patting us down and taking nude photos, the terrorists win apparently.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm not that much of a bleeding heart, I just have a problem with my dog being used as target practice on my own property.
> A police baton can be 20 inches to 3 feet long... plenty of room for self defence.
> Ever been hit with one? One hit and you pretty much piss yourself. The only problem with a 3 foot long riot baton is that if something doesn't come within 3 feet of you, you don't get to kill it.



The collapsible batons issued here are 16 inches. Many departments no longer issue the longer stick type ones except to Public Control Units. They are difficult to carry on regular patrol. 
Of course, again comes down to the department. Just like whether they carry tazers or OC spray or the length of the baton.
One of those many factors we don't know.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Klamari said:


> yeah, I'm going to do a little more than "hope for the best" when it comes to my safety. I'm going to take a little more action than hope. If you want to take risks with your safety with the chance the dog might stop, that's on you. But people are not wrong for keeping themselves alive and uninjured. That's a basic human right.


Since this was in response to me... I was not answering anything you said. I was answering Jeff's question. I would probably freeze. I did not in anyway say that anyone was wrong for protecting themselves nor did I say that the police officer was wrong. So don't twist my words for your benefit. 

I don't own a gun. I don't know how to shoot one. I don't carry one. SO not an option. If you run, the dog will chase that seems to be a stupid option to choose. 

Next time, why don't you read what I wrote instead of putting words in my mouth.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

You know the main thing I do see with EVERYONE here is that we all love our dogs and we can learn from each others mistakes. I'm sure this woman had no bad intentions and may have been a bit overwhelmed with a dog and kids running around? Maybe the dog was friendly? I think we need to take a step back and say "would this or can this happen to me" and "if it can happen to me how can I prevent it". 

Like seltzer said they can ban a breed of dogs if they wanted to, lets not let that happen.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I don't fear this happening to my dog. I keep my dog in a fenced yard AND supervised at all times. I keep him on a leash otherwise.


Here's something to think about.. Even with the dog on a leash and supervised.. If it barks or lounges and someone fears for there safety or feels threaten.. BANG! You might just loose your dog and be the next story on the news!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with all the "agree to disagree folk." For my part, I will continue to do what I have always done to keep my dog safe. She will NEVER be left outside unattended. I agree with Selzer that I do not want to lose my rights of dog ownership, because others are not responsible. I support and appreciate our LEOs. To all the LEOs on this board, "Thank you and God Bless." To everyone....Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

novarobin said:


> The collapsible batons issued here are 16 inches. Many departments no longer issue the longer stick type ones except to Public Control Units.


Here they're 3 feet. And evidently it's perfectly legal to beat you with it, throw you and your dog into a chain-link fence cage for a day in the rain if you don't produce ID while walking said dog or waiting for a streetcar. 
Ontario never should have enacted G20 summit security law, Ombudsman’s report says - The Globe and Mail
I don't like it when law enforcement is given an easy out just because their job is unimaginably harder than I could possibly handle. 
If anything, they should be held to a higher standard.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

G-burg said:


> Here's something to think about.. Even with the dog on a leash and supervised.. If it barks or lounges and someone fears for there safety or feels threaten.. BANG! You might just loose your dog and be the next story on the news!


I guess we could create any hypothetical scenario here. C'mom, really? Someone is going to shoot my dog on the end of a 4 ft leash? A LEO? Gosh--I am afraid to leave my house now!!!! So much can go wrong out there!!!


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## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> Here they're 3 feet. And evidently it's perfectly legal to beat you with it, throw you and your dog into a chain-link fence cage for a day in the rain if you don't produce ID while walking said dog or waiting for a streetcar.
> Ontario never should have enacted G20 summit security law, Ombudsman’s report says - The Globe and Mail
> I don't like it when law enforcement is given an easy out just because their job is unimaginably harder than I could possibly handle.
> If anything, they should be held to a higher standard.


sorry but this is off the topic....You expect me to feel sorry for a G-20 protester....they are the worst of the worst. If you stayed out of the G-20 perimeter you had nothing to worry about. If you google G-20 protesters you see all they are about is violence/attacking the police. They had to enact such a law to protect themselves from 20 year olds with rocks and tear gas cannisters.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

novarobin said:


> What was the point of this? ...It proves nothing.


Good question but it actually was to make a point, not prove anything. The point is the shooting officer stated, "A dog, I believe to be a pit-bull, jumped from the suspect vehicle, singled me out from the other officers, and charged toward me growling in an aggressive manner, Hall described. "I yelled at the dog to 'get back' but it attempted to circle me to attack, so I felt that I had no other option but to protect myself. I fired once at the dog, instantly putting him down," he continued. 



If you watch the video, his statement is not supported at all. Let me put it another way, the officer flat out lied.


A lot of people here want to give the officer the benefit of the doubt. But when confronted with an actual video, I suspect we would all be horrified at the caviler shooting of a dog that posed no threat.


I will say it again. That cop is an idiot. I hope he gets fired and the department gets sued. There is no justification for shooting a dog under these circumstances.


Good day,
John


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I guess we could create any hypothetical scenario here. C'mom, really? Someone is going to shoot my dog on the end of a 4 ft leash? A LEO? Gosh--I am afraid to leave my house now!!!! So much can go wrong out there!!!


Dead serious! 

Anyone ever run there dogs off leash, hike through the woods, parks? Might not want to do that anymore.. Just saying!


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

G-burg said:


> Dead serious!
> 
> Anyone ever run there dogs off leash, hike through the woods, parks? Might not want to do that anymore.. Just saying!


Okay-put down the internet now... It's okay. Turn off CNN, Foxnews, etc... Go outside and play...


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

BadLieutenant said:


> sorry but this is off the topic....You expect me to feel sorry for a G-20 protester....they are the worst of the worst.


That's the point, they weren't protesters, some were people waiting for the bus in front of their homes. Police said they were protesters. (I know this because I was there) Ever see a protester in shorts with an ipod walking his cocker spaniel?


BadLieutenant said:


> If you stayed out of the G-20 perimeter you had nothing to worry about.


People *LIVE* in the perimeter.


BadLieutenant said:


> They had to enact such a law to protect themselves from 20 year olds with rocks and tear gas cannisters.


The police lied about the law, it was never enacted. It was fake, they said there was a law under which they arrested and beat innocent people, when it came to their day in court, hundreds of charges magically got "lost in the mail". No one has any proof of them ever being arrested.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Just for you Kris10! Don't watch CNN, nor Foxnews, nor CBNC and I have been out to play already today more than once..

The point I'm trying to make is if our dogs aren't safe in their own yards or homes.. Then there safe no where.. And in this world nothing is far fetched anymore.. Because just when you've thought you've heard it or seen it all, something else smacks you in the face!


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> There is a huge, huge difference between a dog giving an alert bark in its yard, and a dog that is charging at you, barking - especially if there is an invisible fence only and it is not marked in any way.
> 
> I am forever annoyed when walking my dog, leashed, at having to go past neighbors' properties where dogs are simply allowed to run loose. If they're contained by a fence, I don't mind if they bark once or twice and then stop because I know there is a fence keeping them away and me (and my dog) safe. If they're contained by an invisible fence, I DO mind because I don't know if they are contained. It's easy for a dog to go through an invisible fence. It happens all the time. And if the fence isn't marked, I don't even know it's there. Am I supposed to be a mind reader?
> 
> ...


Your dreaming up scenarios and attaching my quotes to them. I said my GSD's will bark at people near the yard they don't know. Are you saying your dog doesn't? .....Yea right.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> Here they're 3 feet. And evidently it's perfectly legal to beat you with it, throw you and your dog into a chain-link fence cage for a day in the rain if you don't produce ID while walking said dog or waiting for a streetcar.
> Ontario never should have enacted G20 summit security law, Ombudsman’s report says - The Globe and Mail
> I don't like it when law enforcement is given an easy out just because their job is unimaginably harder than I could possibly handle.
> If anything, they should be held to a higher standard.


This is a completely different topic. I won't get into it. I know several officers who travelled to Ontario during this and know about what they faced, from having rocks, feces and urine thrown at them to having public property including several Police cruisers lit on fire, one while an officer was still inside. 
There were legit protesters there, but there were also a good number there with one purpose, chaos and destruction. 
I disagree with enacting the security law, but that decision was at a much higher level than simply the Police. 

I not familiar with the specific incident you refer to so I can't comment. 
I also feel that Police should be, and are , held to a higher standard. I also feel that we need to remember Police are human and as such, still fallible. 

I also think we have come a long way in transparency within our justice system. It is no perfect, but there is a huge difference in just a few decades.


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## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> That's the point, they weren't protesters, some were people waiting for the bus in front of their homes. Police said they were protesters. (I know this because I was there) Ever see a protester in shorts with an ipod walking his cocker spaniel?
> People *LIVE* in the perimeter.
> The police lied about the law, it was never enacted. It was fake, they said there was a law under which they arrested and beat innocent people, when it came to their day in court, hundreds of charges magically got "lost in the mail". No one has any proof of them ever being arrested.


I suppose the guy with the covered face throwing a fire bomb isnt a protester either. If you believe that Police wake up in the morning and can't wait to get to work to "arrest and beat innocent people" like you said you are sadly mistaken. 99.9 percent of Police officers wish they have very uneventful days and never have to use any type of force. Like I said before....i have no sympathy for any G-20 protester.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We can make our dogs safer by not allowing them to terrorize others. People have a Right to Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. Dogs do not have those rights. Judges can order a dog euthanized if some old lady was afraid, slipped, broke a hip and died in the hospital. Dog never touched her. But if someone said the dog LOOKED like it may have, a judge could order that the dog be euthanized.

Why risk it. 

If you love your dog, take care of it.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

G-burg said:


> Just for you Kris10! Don't watch CNN, nor Foxnews, nor CBNC and I have been out to play already today more than once..
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is if our dogs aren't safe in their own yards or homes.. Then there safe no where.. And in this world nothing is far fetched anymore.. Because just when you've thought you've heard it or seen it all, something else smacks you in the face!


The point I am trying to make is that there are things we can do as dog owners (and lovers) to protect our pets and the people around them. We have a responsibility for BOTH I believe. 
A dog in a front yard with only an electric fence is not being protected by its owner, nor are people or other animals who happen to walk by. I am sorry for the dog and the officer who were a part of this unfortunate situation created by the dog owner. 

In addition, I do not see this situation extended in any logical way to my dog not being safe in my home or yard.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

selzer said:


> We can make our dogs safer by not allowing them to terrorize others. People have a Right to Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. Dogs do not have those rights. Judges can order a dog euthanized if some old lady was afraid, slipped, broke a hip and died in the hospital. Dog never touched her. But if someone said the dog LOOKED like it may have, a judge could order that the dog be euthanized.
> 
> Why risk it.
> 
> If you love your dog, take care of it.


And how often does that happen, without warning the owner?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> If you love your dog, take care of it.


So what? We're supposed to keep our dogs locked up all the time now because Joe Stupid is afraid that the dog LOOKED at them? I don't care how a person spins it. It's not right


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Xeph said:


> So what? We're supposed to keep our dogs locked up all the time now because Joe Stupid is afraid that the dog LOOKED at them? I don't care how a person spins it. It's not right


Who said that? The dog just "looked" at someone? Who is doing the spinning here?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

JMO, but I don't consider keeping my dog in my house - where she has free reign, can sleep anywhere - including the beds and couch to be locking her up. Oh - the horror of her life living inside the house.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> JMO, but I don't consider keeping my dog in my house - where she has free reign, can sleep anywhere - including the beds and couch to be locking her up. Oh - the horror of her life living inside the house.


I bet the dog (who is not a child, BTW) is much happier outside. A lot of people consider keeping a large dog locked up in the house just plain wrong.

And why are we having this discussion? Oh yea, because a trigger happy cop executed a dog 10 feet from his front porch. 

I hope this cop gets fired and sued to make the next cop think twice before pulling the trigger.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Where is the cop bashing?


Well there you have it. It took 15 pages to come out, but finally the OP got to their point!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

novarobin said:


> I disagree with enacting the security law, but that decision was at a much higher level than simply the Police.
> 
> I not familiar with the specific incident you refer to so I can't comment.
> I also feel that Police should be, and are , held to a higher standard. I also feel that we need to remember Police are human and as such, still fallible.


Good that you disagree with it because it was never enacted... That's precisely my point! The police *lied* about a *fake* law! And people are somehow OK with this! Because police are human? It's ok to invent a law and then enforce it? I'm not siding with the protesters here but how can people just take this like sheep? (no offense to sheep). If you lived here, it was quite scary, and the rest of the universe seems perfectly fine with police beating people enforcing a fake law because they're "human" and their jobs are hard. I'm human and my job is hard... Can I at least trip someone?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Whoa this thread went for a little ride.

Everyone has their own ways of handling a charging dog. Police officers have a baton, pepper spray, and a gun. People who are NOT police officers have themselves, anything that just might be on them such as treats(Mrs. K suggestion), and sometimes a gun. I have had dogs run at me aggressive and non-aggressive and didn't need a gun. There are different ways to handle a charging dog(aggressive or not). 

People will handle the situation they see fit. We may not all agree with it, but thats just how it is. It is sad the dog lost its life in the process. The dog was guarding his property/territory and having the dog get shot because of that seems scary. But it hasn't happened where I am(or I haven't heard of it happening.) Maybe I have cops who know dog behavior and body language. I don't know. I am not bashing the cop or saying what he did was right. There is probably more to the story than what is being told, thats the problem with the media.

But we will have to agree to disagree.

Keep you and your dogs safe in whatever way you can.

Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> Good that you disagree with it because it was never enacted... That's precisely my point! The police *lied* about a *fake* law! And people are somehow OK with this! Because police are human? It's ok to invent a law and then enforce it? I'm not siding with the protesters here but how can people just take this like sheep? (no offense to sheep). If you lived here, it was quite scary, and the rest of the universe seems perfectly fine with police beating people enforcing a fake law because they're "human" and their jobs are hard. I'm human and my job is hard... Can I at least trip someone?


I don't believe in letting the police using overly excessive force and abusing their authority. But that is another thread for another time.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Who said that? The dog just "looked" at someone? Who is doing the spinning here?


It's called "exaggeration to make a point". Although I have had people who claimed my dog intended to do them harm because my dog was, in fact, looking at them (on leash BTW). So, what, are we not supposed to go anywhere anymore because somebody doesn't like my dogs?

It sounds like my dogs aren't even safe in their own yard anymore, regardless of whether or not there is a physical fence containing them. We currently have a physical fence off to the side of the place we rent that the dogs are put in, but it's nearly impossible to see when it's dark out. Do my dogs deserve to be shot for doing what is natural to them (regardless of breed) when they ARE physically contained?

No.

And the excuse "I didn't know!" wouldn't fly, and I'd sue the crap out of whoever did it.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I hope this cop gets fired and sued to make the next cop think twice before pulling the trigger.


Is it so much to ask to have a cop ask themselves, "am I legally allowed to do this?" (unless they're about to die)??
I have a lot of respect for police who understand their job and do it well but it's incredibly sad that they're so few and far between, and they actually take away from the good ones. I know of a few good ones but each one of those knows 50 that can't even tell you under what authority they're writing a citation. (I came across one who couldn't even spell "ticket", he spelled it "tickit" among other words like "enbetween").


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I personally would not want my dog to be shot while in his territory and barking at someone.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Hi ya Jessie! Maybe it is time for you to bake some brownies and make everyone a little sweeter. LOL!

H & G Nope my dog is not happier outside. She is outside when I am outside. Otherwise she is allowed to go out to potty. She comes right back and barks at the door to come in.
Why would she want to be outside all alone?


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Xeph: Why exaggerate to make a point? Has your dog been shot? Why do you feel your dogs aren't safe in your fenced yard?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm torn.... 
Why no flags? well, the instructions say that the flags are only for use while you are training the dog - a visible sign of where the line is. Once the dog has learned, then you remove the flag. If there had been flags, is it likely that the officer would have known what they were for? 

If you have your dog in a fence, are they allowed to shoot if it looks like the dog will jump the fence? If the officer enters the yard and your dog barks at him, they WILL shoot your dog. Yes, sometimes even if you are just a couple feet away. Will every cop do this? No, but sadly it DOES happen. There have been cases where crated dogs have been shot during an arrest.

So, I don't think it's necessarily the anyone's fault. Just an unfortunate set of circumstances. The owner had every right to believe that their dog was safe, after all it was contained. The officer was afraid that the dog would leave the yard. Sadly, that could happen to any of our dogs, even if the they are fenced.

I'm not sure what the alternative could be however.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Why no flags? well, the instructions say that the flags are only for use while you are training the dog - a visible sign of where the line is. Once the dog has learned, then you remove the flag. If there had been flags, is it likely that the officer would have known what they were for?


Maybe this is something for the owner to take up with the invisible fence company? Maybe there should be some kind of markers or signs made present for the public?

I think I've learned some stuff from this thread from both sides! Or at least a different way of looking at things..


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Why do you feel your dogs aren't safe in your fenced yard?


It goes beyond the fenced yard. Where we are right now, the likelihood of anybody being out this way, cop or otherwise, is nil. Where I lived in WI? Definitely more likely (particularly around the 4th of July).

I don't see what right anybody has, police or otherwise, to shoot somebody's dog if they are contained in their own yard. If you run through somebody's yard and there are dogs in it, why should you be allowed to kill the dog? You're trespassing. And in most cases, you are not in mortal danger.

Mirada is just young and stupid, and "does what the big one does", but at this point in time, is highly unlikely to bite. Strauss is unlikely to bite unless you threaten him.

We've had the police at our house (back in WI, when I was younger, due to issues with my mentally ill brother), and I had cops screaming at me to control the dogs. Wow, gee, thanks for making the situation better. Good job.

My dogs do not know that the police are there to help, and most often times, the way they were acting, things only got worse. They're in no immediate danger, and regardless of whether or not they know that, a lot of times it seems to me they just want a reason to dispatch an animal so things are easier for them.

BTW, my dogs do not charge the fence, nor run fence lines. They will however run/lope (and this is most definitely different from charging) up to the fence gate and bark if they see somebody coming. They don't deserve to be shot for that.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I could since there was a little sourness in the thread. Do we have Grinches in here?

I might add frosting to the brownies to those who are on the nice list.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

No frosting please. Will take walnuts though!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok. A batch of ones with walnuts, a batch ones without walnuts and a batch of ones with frosting.

I seriously think I need to open up my own bakery.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Your dreaming up scenarios and attaching my quotes to them. I said my GSD's will bark at people near the yard they don't know. Are you saying your dog doesn't? .....Yea right.


I am not "dreaming up" anything. YOU said your dogs bark at people who pass your yard that they don't know and that you accept it. I get the impression from your post that you want and encourage it. YOU also said that your two young children open the door letting the dogs out without you knowing, permitting the dogs to be running lose in the front yard contained by nothing other than an E-Fence. 

I am glad your children don't open the door and run outside themselves, but I think it's irresponsible to have this cavalier attitude of, "well, I have young kids, they open doors, that's just the way it is" and "the dogs get out when the kids let them out and they bark at people, big deal. I'm allowed to have barking dogs in my yard."

And for the record, my dog does not bark at strangers passing my yard because my dog is not outside in the yard without my supervision.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I don't see what right anybody has, police or otherwise, to shoot somebody's dog if they are contained in their own yard. If you run through somebody's yard and there are dogs in it, why should you be allowed to kill the dog? You're trespassing. And in most cases, you are not in mortal danger.


I think what it comes down to is that nobody was aware that the dog was "contained" because it was "contained" by an INVISIBLE fence that was not marked in any way. Don't they have little placards letting people know there's an invisible fence, like they have for security systems ("protected by" sort of things)? If now, how is someone passing by supposed to be aware that the dog is "contained" instead of running loose?

I see LOADS of dogs running loose where I live so if I were to pass a yard with dogs in it that does not have a visible fence, I would not assume that the dog is contained by an invisible fence. I would have no way of knowing that the dog is contained at all.

If an officer crosses into someone's yard while looking for a suspect, the officer is not trespassing. And if he is threatened by a dog that is charging at him, he is legally allowed to defend himself. I don't see why this is hard to understand. Of course, I also don't see why people would leave their dogs outside unsupervised, even in a fenced yard, considering they could dig out, jump the fence, be stolen, be poisoned by neighbors annoyed by the barking, etc. etc. etc. It's just common sense not to leave your dogs out unsupervised.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Psst - Jessie, I keep swearing I'm not coming back to this thread, but it's like a train wreck. It is hideous, but I can't help looking. Maybe you could put a few meds in those brownies for those who may have forgotten to take theirs today. Me??? I wouldn't mind some chocolate chips, but if you think I need the meds - that's OK too.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I don't see why this is hard to understand.


I understand, I just don't agree or think it is right.



> I also don't see why people would leave their dogs outside unsupervised, even in a fenced yard


Because they need to run inside to check on dinner? Or the laundry? Or the children? Or a neighbor stopped by? Not an unusual in 99% of households.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

OK I will make them "Special" Brownies.Hehehehehe


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

several people have said that they supervise their dogs from inside, looking out the window or sliding glass door. Sadly, that is plenty of time for a dog in this situation (in the news article) to be shot. 
How about you are outside in the yard with your dog, working in the flower garden. Dog runs around the corner of the house BANG! is dead before you even get up from your knees.

That's why I don't think that either person is in the wrong. The cop had no way to know that the dog wasn't contained. However, that logic could apply to dog's that ARE fenced because they look like they are going to jump over the fence. Same could be said for a dog that is on a runner, could be easily unnoticed in the grass/dark and the officer assumes the dog is free.

The owner assumed that the dog was contained, as the dog was trained to remain in the invisible fenced area. That the dog COULD have ran through the fence is irrelevant, since the dog never left it's yard. That same logic could apply to any but the most secure yard. Dogs jump fences all the time. Even a 6ft chain link fence can be climbed in only a few seconds. 

The invisible fence is meant to be just that, invisible. Would a sign be a good idea? Yes, but unless you have it displayed in multiple prominent locations in the yard, the officer wouldn't have seen it anyway. If there had been a sign, but the cop didn't see it would you still consider it to be the owner's fault?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*eating "special" brownies* Dude...dude I got the munchies so bad *insert lightbulb moment here* But I got BROWNIES! OMG dude, problem solved! Pass the Dew!

It's a vicious cycle


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

*passes the Dew* There ya go.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> Good that you disagree with it because it was never enacted... That's precisely my point! The police *lied* about a *fake* law! And people are somehow OK with this! Because police are human? It's ok to invent a law and then enforce it? I'm not siding with the protesters here but how can people just take this like sheep? (no offense to sheep). If you lived here, it was quite scary, and the rest of the universe seems perfectly fine with police beating people enforcing a fake law because they're "human" and their jobs are hard. I'm human and my job is hard... Can I at least trip someone?


 I misspoke/typed. What I was trying to say was I do not agree with what was done. from what I gathered they intentionally "interpreted" an existing law in a way that allowed them powers they felt they required even though it did not. 
I am not ok with it. That was what I tried to say but didn't quite get this across. People across this country are not ok with it. 

This law was not twisted to be used in such a way because Police feel their job is hard or they are human. I never claimed Police are justified in anything simply because their job is hard My point about being human was not meant in reference to that incident. My point was when judging any situation to remember that first and foremost they are human not as some infallible being. 
I did note in that article that other departments objected to the way this law was being used, yet no credit for those officers. As I said this was not the Police alone who decided to enforce this law in a way it was not written, that decision involved more than just some Police brass.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Die thread Die!!


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

AbbyK9 said:


> I am not "dreaming up" anything. YOU said your dogs bark at people who pass your yard that they don't know and that you accept it. I get the impression from your post that you want and encourage it. YOU also said that your two young children open the door letting the dogs out without you knowing, permitting the dogs to be running lose in the front yard contained by nothing other than an E-Fence.
> 
> I am glad your children don't open the door and run outside themselves, but I think it's irresponsible to have this cavalier attitude of, "well, I have young kids, they open doors, that's just the way it is" and "the dogs get out when the kids let them out and they bark at people, big deal. I'm allowed to have barking dogs in my yard."
> 
> And for the record, my dog does not bark at strangers passing my yard because my dog is not outside in the yard without my supervision.


Listen, you are still putting words in my my e-mouth. You even put quotes around things I never said. Please.

I never said my children let the dogs out. They HAVE opened the front door and left it open, and then yes, the dogs will naturally go out with them (they are 3 and 4 by the way.) They are kids that get into things that they have been told not to. It happens. 

We have a 30,000 sf back yard with a 4 foot fence around the entire back yard. There are signs on the gate that say, "Dogs in Yard" with a silhouette of a GSD. There are operating latches and gate closers in working order.

We have an invisible fence in the front yard just in case one of the little guys lets the dog out. It happens. If you don't understand this then you either forgot what little boys are like or simply don't know. The Invisible fence in the front yard is a back up. There is a 12x12 yellow sign on the mailbox at the driveway entrance that says Hansel and Gretel on Guard with a silhouette of a GSD. The dogs do not go out in the front yard unless one of the kids leaves the front door or garage door open. They have a huge back yard. But I wanted another layer, just in case.

I have been hounded in several post that I am somehow just as irresponsible. I think I am a responsible dog owner. I have done a lot to keep the dogs and others safe. Hansel is a 100 lb male that will bark at people that he doesn't know. It can be intimidating too. The fence comes up to the house side and they can see the street. I think it would be like peeing in the wind to think I could stop him from barking every stranger. He is a GSD. That's one of their traits for better or for worse.

Hansel doesn't bark at everyone but there are some people that make him uneasy. And he will let you know he is there.

I do agree that the owner could have had a sign (or two). I have signs as a courtesy. My dogs are not mean or aggressive but nobody know that and I want people to know we have dogs. FWIW, most strangers who come to the door act startled after knocking and hear the barking dogs. I don't really think a sign would have made a difference in this case.

It was unnecessary to shoot the dog. I think most reasonable people would agree. And I bet a jury does too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that a sign probably would not have worked in this case. Maybe, maybe not. In daylight the officer might see the sign. At night probably not. It depends where the signs are located, too. 

The little flag things would have been ok, but pulling them up and putting them back down after mowing the lawn has to be pretty tedius. 

Some people have invisible fences because homeowner's associations do not allow them to have solid fences. Also, they are cheaper than a solid fence. 

A four foot fence is not a deterant for GSDs. Most of them can climb or even jump a four foot fence. Six foot is better, but any single fence without supervision can be breeched in one way or another. 

I keep my dogs in covered kennels in the back yard, surrounded by solid fencing. I do not leave them in either fenced field when I am not out there. Too scarey. They are smart and once a five week old puppy I had still in the litter, the other pups were huddled checking out the kool grass that was new. Rush was on the other side of the yard finding the weak point in my fence. I do not trust fences to protect my dogs. 

Do I lock my dogs up to keep them safe. Yupp. I do not want to clean them up after a coyotee attack, or bury them after being hit by a car. I do not want to find them in one of the traps the Amish guy has in the woods. I do not want to wonder what happened to him for years, after the farmer or the hunter shot, shoveled and shut up. 

I would never put my faith in an e-fence. If your dog is loose, you have to be right with him. If your dog looks like it is loose you have to be right with him. 

Just because the situation has not presented itself to us yet, does not mean that our dogs are safe.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> We have an invisible fence in the front yard just in case one of the little guys lets the dog out. It happens. If you don't understand this then you either forgot what little boys are like or simply don't know.


I don't understand why it's OKAY your children are opening the door and the dogs are getting out. What happens if your children run out? Or the dogs run through the invisible fence? Even if they don't hurt anyone, what happens if THEY get hurt?

I don't buy this excuse of "they do it because that's what little boys are like." If you know they do it, why is there not a lock on the door that they cannot open? Put a chain-type lock at the top of the door where they cannot reach it, problem solved.

I think you're making excuses rather than viewing this as a potential dangerous situation for your kids and your dogs and fixing it / stopping it, and yes, I think that is irresponsible.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I know this thread is a heated train wreck but I will try to run it further off the tracks with a mental image I just thought up. 

Inspector Jacques Clouseau walking down the sidewalk sees a sign "Our dog is behind an invisible fence and doesn't bite." After he is mauled an old man tells him "that's not our dog."

I understand the folks that want to blame the police. I think I would have taken that side eleven years ago.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

There will ALWAYS be folks who want to blame the police. Sadly, it looks like most of them are just as irresponsible as the owner of the GR. 

A 4-foot fence is laughable - my GSD is taller than that when she stands up. We had a 6-ft fence & are replacing with a 7-ft. Still, the dog does not go outside without 1 of us there. And certainly NEVER in the front yard without 1 of us.

3 & 4-yr-olds can be taught "No" & certainly should have by now. It's ridiculous to blame a cop for protecting himself when so many here can't even protect their own dogs or kids. Stop making excuses & be more responsible with the very charges that depend upon you to protect them.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Im not going to post on the cop/dog thing, but I do want to point out that its not so easy to just put a lock up high to keep kids in. I have found that people who don't have kids seem to think its easy, its not. Kids are smart and they vary on things they do, but my two year old has figured out he can stack stuff up to climb on to reach the high places. While 3 and 4 year olds might know what the word no means, they also have short attention spans and like to continue to test boundaries. For some, tell them they cant just makes them want to do it more and sometimes it only takes a second for something to happen. The little buggars work fast sometimes.

What alot of people suggest is a false since of security IMO. Yes parents should do EVERYTHING they can, but to think everything is full proof is naive and unrealistic IMO. Most parents don't set out for things to happen, but sometimes they do. Hindsight is always 20/20 and everyone, EVERYONE has something they could go back on and do differently and say "I should have done that differently". There isnt a single person on here who is so perfect they've never had something happen with something in life. 

(hey, if people can say that if you aint a cop you don't understand, then people with kids can say that about people with non kids yes?)


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

Okay, so the officer felt threatened and shot and killed the dog. I don't want officers harmed, but I would like them to improve their standing and community relations. Respect for cops does not come automatically, simply because of who they are. We can scream and cry about that, but it is just the reality of human nature and of today's world. Even the most noble of professions must earn that respect as a result of how they serve.

First, I am very troubled by the diminishing concept of people's property rights, which were paramount to the Founding Fathers of this nation. In those first years of the Republic, you could not go onto someone's personal property without their consent, and you certainly could not discharge firearms unless you were alongside the owner and he/she had called upon you in that capacity. British soldiers walked onto private property and did as they pleased, and our Bill of Rights was fashioned specifically to put a stop to officers of authority doing that to American citizens.

In this specific case, a widow and her six children, having lost their beloved father to cancer, are now passing Christmas without their cherished family pet, who symbolizes for many a blessing of consolation during grief. Shooting that dog, on the family's private property, is simply going to outrage a sector of the public and for some young people, it will completely diminish their respect for cops. 

As an officer, yes, you have to defend yourself--first with non-lethal means. But you must also prudently, very prudently, weigh your actions and remember that the uniform's awe, if besmirched, is not easily elevated again in the eyes of your constituents whom you serve. 

In the face of a crisis, neither police, politicians, clergy, teachers--you name it--can afford to shut themselves up behind a wall of silence and just lay low, or mouth curt comments in front of the camera about investigations going on. Certainly, if you tell them they are stupid for not having a fence, people will just take you to be a first class moron. You need to go to this family with a caring and concerned voice and at least tell them how terrible you feel and that you will do everything to make things right for them. 

That does not mean admitting guilt. It means admitting that you are human, that you are there to serve them, not vice versa, and that this shooting will be used as a growing experience to better serve and protect in the future.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

CaliBoy said:


> Okay, so the officer felt threatened and shot and killed the dog. I don't want officers harmed, but I would like them to improve their standing and community relations. Respect for cops does not come automatically, simply because of who they are. We can scream and cry about that, but it is just the reality of human nature and of today's world. Even the most noble of professions must earn that respect as a result of how they serve.
> 
> First, I am very troubled by the diminishing concept of people's property rights, which were paramount to the Founding Fathers of this nation. In those first years of the Republic, you could not go onto someone's personal property without their consent, and you certainly could not discharge firearms unless you were alongside the owner and he/she had called upon you in that capacity. British soldiers walked onto private property and did as they pleased, and our Bill of Rights was fashioned specifically to put a stop to officers of authority doing that to American citizens.
> 
> ...


I think this is an excellent and well thought out post. I do want to mention a couple of things though:

First - LEO and other folks in professions of authority do things every day to earn respect...the media just doesn't sell enough advertising space to support printing or airing these stories...Bad news, drama and lawsuits sell. Which leads me to :

Second: People are afraid to apologize these days because of how litigious our society is. A lawyer will certainly tell this LEO not to apologize because it would be an admission of wrongdoing...


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't understand how apologizing would be admitting guilt. Saying, "I'm sorry I did this." is a lot different than saying, "I'm sorry for your loss." Otherwise everyone who ever went to a funeral just admitted to murder.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Apologizing is different then giving condolences. It means one accepts responsibility.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Just checking in on everyone opcorn:, I see we're still debating? Can we talk about something else? What does everyone want from Santa?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I just made a cake.


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## Locknload (Nov 8, 2010)

I like cheese.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> I have found that people who don't have kids seem to think its easy, its not.


To illustrate your point, when I was a kid, I fell off our balcony when trying to jump from one to the other, and landed myself in the hospital (I don't know what went wrong it was about the 10th time I did it, I was 4). The hospital staff had plenty to say about my parents. Guess who was missing from the hospital the first morning?  They put me in a room with a lock on it the next night... It was easy enough to get by though because I stuffed the plunger holes with chewed up paper so it couldn't lock (no one ever suspects a 4 year old of these things so it made my job easier) and for my next trick, the third night I was forced to climb out the window because they were on to my lock trick... Not very bright if you ask me considering that was the reason I was in there in the first place. The window had very convenient bars on it that lead to a fire escape that lead to a roof 
My dad being a very sarcastic person asked the hospital staff, "Any more questions?".
I was an escape artist just because it was fun and challenging, not because I wasn't "trained" not to do things. I'm sure tons of kids are the same... the answer isn't to judge or dismiss the parents.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Denali Girl, I would like to win megamillions for Christmas. I promise to be VERY good to my friends.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Children can be trained. My sister's kids are 3 and 4 and they DO NOT OPEN the outside door, not ever. They are trained. My sister got her kids at ten months and a year old. And still she has been able to get them to follow rules.

People make all sorts of excuses to justify their kids and their dogs bad behavior. 

As for this dog was a widow's dog, etc, etc, etc, Sorry, but there is NO way for a cop to know that when they are facing a threat and if they did should they take a bite and become unable to deal with the situation they are there for because they are accosted by someone's dog that they do not want to kill? Would this be the same if it was a pitt or a rotty or a shepherd? 

People need to see their dogs how neighbors, mail men, ups guys, meter readers, and cops would see their dogs, not just, "it's my property, my dog can go where it wants and scare who it wants."


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

When I was a little kid, I was in class(Kindergarten or 1st grade, I forgot which.) I was sitting behind a girl and took a pair of scissors and cut her hair.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Gasp! Jessica!!! That's awful.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And if you were from my generation, the teacher would have given you a few swats and made you sit in the thinking chair for the rest of the day. In fact, we would NEVER have done something like that because we probably already felt the wrath of our parents when we tried that on ourselves or our siblings. 

Kids were better behaved back when they could get the snot knocked out of them in school. Of course I went to one of those Christian schools where they practiced not sparing the rod in order not to spoil the child.

Oh, and of course the parents would ALWAYS knock even more snot out when they found out about the kid getting in trouble in school. Parents did not consult with teachers about how their child should not be subjected to [fill in the blank]. Parents thought teachers were educated, they knew best, and if their kid got in trouble at school, they were in for more, much more at home. 

At school they used the old yard stick or holey paddle. At home it was an extension cord. The pastor's kids had the razor strap. When I finally found out what one of those were, I thought that the extension cord was probably more wicked.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Selzer - You & I must've had the same parents & went to the same schools. We were always more afraid of our parents than we were to any teacher or cop...

And I agree 100% that kids CAN (& should) be trained. I'm tired of going out where the kids act like wild Indians while their parents sit on their butts. Mine wouldn't think of doing that. Same irresponsibility that governs their dogs, I guess.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Fear does not = respect. Not that it seems to matter to a lot of people >.<


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, and no. Did we fear our parents? Yes. Do I respect my parents? Oh yeah. 

You know the ones that really do not respect their parents are kids who have very little to no discipline. And I am talking about more than spankings here. People are so afraid that their kids will be afraid of them or whatever, they do not discipline at all, and those kids are hellions. Worse, they are not happy kids. 

A kid who knows how far they can go is a whole lot happier. 

We KNEW our parents would KILL us if we crossed the line, but we were happy kids, and grew up without problems with the law, good employees, all finished college, and all respectful of our parents who will be married 50 years in October. 

Did they use questionable methods in today's thinking. Yupp. And we all thrived. Imagine that.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> Gasp! Jessica!!! That's awful.


Yea, I was trouble child. My 3rd grade teacher set me straight.lol I got Student of the Month in 3rd grade too!My second grade teacher thought I needed to be put on medication.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I was beaten black and blue from parents, teachers, neighbors, etc. and it just seemed like a regular transaction for me LOL, do something fun, get beaten senseless, finish crying, find something else that's fun to do... work harder to not get caught next time 
My dad later admitted to me that he was amused with my antics and secretly proud I wasn't one of those boring kids that listened to adults all the time, at least I never got molested


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

I was thinking about this thread today while working. Basically the dog was shot (on private property) out of "fear"

Is that the only reason a cop needs to shoot something? Fear?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Oh, I punched a girl in 2nd grade once. >.>


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I was thinking about this thread today while working. Basically the dog was shot (on private property) out of "fear"
> 
> Is that the only reason a cop needs to shoot something? Fear?


If you "fear" this happening to your own dog, DO something about it. 

If a cop is afraid of your dog, and is doing his job, he can shoot your dog. Answer: don't put your dog in that position. 

Simple.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

And that "position" would be the dog is on my private property. I agree with Caliboy that this runs contrary to our Founders vision (and fear) of government.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Maybe I should erect a fence around the front of my house, not so much to keep the dogs in but the cops out.
Kinda sad if you think about it. The very people charged with keeping the public safe become feared by the public.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

selzer said:


> ...A four foot fence is not a deterant for GSDs. Most of them can climb or even jump a four foot fence. Six foot is better, but any single fence without supervision can be breeched in one way or another..


A four foot fence is all that is allowed here by building code. 

You dog must have a big S on his cape. My dog can't get over the fence.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hansel & Gretal, 

Do you know what your neighbor would get if he walked into your yard and shot your dog dead? Do you know what would happen to him? 

If he said, the dog came for me and I shot him, the cops would probably not even cite him for ANYTHING. 

If he said, it barks all night and I am tired of it so I went over there and shot him. 

He would get a fine, be convicted of a MISDEMEANER! He would NOT go to Jail! You may be compensated for the replacement cost for your dog. 

If a jogger was jogging down the street and saw the dog run toward him barking, he can pull out a gun and shoot the dog dead, won't get cited, unless you live in a village where discharging a firearm or carrying a firearm is illegal. Still in self defense you can pretty much discharge a firearm.

Why do you insist that your dog be in that position. 

I care about my dogs. I do not leave them where it is easy for someone to get away with shooting them. An invisible fence will not fly if the shooter said the dog was attacking him. 

Why do cops have to be better than other citizens? Why should they have to take being bitten before defending themselves. This yayhoo owner would not have changed his tune if the dog stepped onto the sidewalk or street to go after the officer. No, unless the officer had holes in him, the owner would not accept that he was lax in managing his dog. 

If you want to leave your dog open to being shot by a neighbor, stranger, or cop, that is up to you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> A four foot fence is all that is allowed here by building code.
> 
> You dog must have a big S on his cape. My dog can't get over the fence.


Wow, you have a GSD that can't get over a four foot fence? I have some that won't go over a five foot fence or a 39 inch baby gate, but that does not mean they CANNOT.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Molly can easily clear the brick walls around our backyard(They are about 6ft), we just don't give her the idea that she can.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Your dog can get over that fence, it just hasn't figured that out yet. Hope you don't learn that the hard way.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

selzer said:


> Wow, you have a GSD that can't get over a four foot fence? I have some that won't go over a five foot fence or a 39 inch baby gate, but that does not mean they CANNOT.


Selzer, this would be a lot more productive if you actually read some of my post. Since you have missed it so many times I will say it again. 

My dogs are in a fenced back yard with signs.

Got it?

And if my neighbor came over and shot my dog in my yard he would have a lot more to worry about than the police citing him for a misdemeanor. I am pretty sure I would be in fear of my life (if you know what I mean)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> I wish I could be so perfect. As hard as I try, there have been times when my dogs have done exactly this.
> 
> I have two small children who will open the door and leave it open. It can get a little crazy when you have kids and dogs.
> 
> Our back yard is hard fenced and we have an invisible fence in the front yard so if one of the kids lets them out they are still contained. Nice to know so many would blame me if a trigger happy cop shot my dog dead in my FRONT YARD.


 
Why is it that I am thinking that maybe the dog is in the front yard with nothing by an invisible fence to protect him? Maybe because you said it happens.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Selzer, this would be a lot more productive if you actually read some of my post. Since you have missed it so many times I will say it again.
> 
> My dogs are in a fenced back yard with signs.
> 
> ...


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Like I said, the invisible fence in the front yard is a back up.
Sheesh...

And yes..walk in my yard with a loaded gun drawn and start firing. We see what happens.

I think this conversation has run it's course.

Good day.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Amazing how people claiming others to be trigger happy, are so ready to talk about how they would take care of business.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Regadless of what some would say (and have done so here many times about *their* dogs)- accidents happen with dogs getting out, fences don't work(turned off or dog can go right thrugh it), dogs fail to act as they have been trained, (anyone want to claim their dog is 100%? - good luck!); things happen sometimes. There will be accidents.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Jax's Mom said:


> To illustrate your point, when I was a kid, I fell off our balcony when trying to jump from one to the other, and landed myself in the hospital (I don't know what went wrong it was about the 10th time I did it, I was 4). The hospital staff had plenty to say about my parents. Guess who was missing from the hospital the first morning?  They put me in a room with a lock on it the next night... It was easy enough to get by though because I stuffed the plunger holes with chewed up paper so it couldn't lock (no one ever suspects a 4 year old of these things so it made my job easier) and for my next trick, the third night I was forced to climb out the window because they were on to my lock trick... Not very bright if you ask me considering that was the reason I was in there in the first place. The window had very convenient bars on it that lead to a fire escape that lead to a roof
> My dad being a very sarcastic person asked the hospital staff, "Any more questions?".
> I was an escape artist just because it was fun and challenging, not because I wasn't "trained" not to do things. I'm sure tons of kids are the same... the answer isn't to judge or dismiss the parents.



dear gods, id pull all my hair out! talk about being kept on your toes as a parent 

I have four, same parenting for each of them, oldest is 13 youngest is 1...same parenting, such different personalities and ways of doing things. What one will do the other wont. Although the 2 yr old and the 1 yr old plan things I believe..they plot, I swear it -_-


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I suppose we can resign ourselves to the idea that there will be accidents. Or if we have an accident, a close call, or hear about a way to prevent an accident we can make our dogs safer.

The dog that was shot was left out front, not on accident, but because it was his yard. He was not supervised, unless you call the teenagers inside the home supervising the dog. He had a history of barking at people, front yard, back yard, doesn't matter, they left him out there even though they knew the dog barks at people and that their fence was invisible (to people).

Accidents may happen, but when someone warns you about the dangers, or you see something happen to another dog in a similar situation, there is a point when it is no longer an accident, it is just a risk you are taking with your dog.

I have Amish driving down my road. My dog might attack their horse in the roadway once, but I guarantee, if it were out there a second time, the guy would have his shot gun with him and he would shoot my dog in a heartbeat. 

Actually, I cannot guarantee that. But I can believe that. And if I believe that, I am going to MAKE SURE it does not happen, not even once.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Regadless of what some would say (and have done so here many times about *their* dogs)- accidents happen with dogs getting out, fences don't work(turned off or dog can go right thrugh it), dogs fail to act as they have been trained, (anyone want to claim their dog is 100%? - good luck!); things happen sometimes. There will be accidents.



Accidents will always happen, yes. No one can ever say it will never happen to me. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent them. Taking certain measures reduce the chances, sometimes significantly these accidents will happen. It's all about stacking the deck in your (and your dog's) favor. 
Far too often "accidents" were completely avoidable in the first place.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Hansel & Gretel said:


> Like I said, the invisible fence in the front yard is a back up.
> Sheesh...
> 
> And yes..walk in my yard with a loaded gun drawn and start firing. We see what happens.
> ...


This has been a good thread, IMO, but it also reminds me of a little kid that starts a fight, then runs home to Mommy.

H&G - YOU began this thread & now you run away...

BTW - the only GSDs I've ever seen that can't jump a 4-ft fence were young puppies. I'm 5'5" & when our dog rears up, she's as tall as me, so I KNOW she could jump it. Our building code allows 6' fencing; but, with a special permit (& fee, of course) we've been allowed to erect a 7' fence. All we had to say was we wanted containment for our GSD. Since it's a breed many fear, there was no problem. Maybe you should check into it. A 4' fence "with signs" won't keep your dogs contained. Unless, of course, they're able to read the signs.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> A four foot fence is all that is allowed here by building code.
> You dog must have a big S on his cape. My dog can't get over the fence.


I have some photos of my 52lbs Malinois going over a straight 6.5 ft wall. She will run up to it, hook her paws over the top and pull herself up. Real easy. Have you seen some of the Ringsport dogs go over straight walls? A 4ft wall would be no obstacle at all for a German Shepherd who wants to get over it.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Please, please do not tell Niko that.  We have a 6 foot fence.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Freya could jump a 4ft fence from a sit.


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## Hansel & Gretel (Oct 26, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> This has been a good thread, IMO, but it also reminds me of a little kid that starts a fight, then runs home to Mommy.
> 
> H&G - YOU began this thread & now you run away...
> 
> BTW - the only GSDs I've ever seen that can't jump a 4-ft fence were young puppies. I'm 5'5" & when our dog rears up, she's as tall as me, so I KNOW she could jump it. Our building code allows 6' fencing; but, with a special permit (& fee, of course) we've been allowed to erect a 7' fence. All we had to say was we wanted containment for our GSD. Since it's a breed many fear, there was no problem. Maybe you should check into it. A 4' fence "with signs" won't keep your dogs contained. Unless, of course, they're able to read the signs.


You guys are funny. This has gone beyond debate into petty bickering.

Besides, Mommy used to tell me that when you argue with an idiot, it's hard for a bystander to tell who's who.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

opcorn::headbang:


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Denali Girl - you're right. I'm done.

H&G - if you're calling me an idiot, I'm sorry for you. I thought the suggestion to go to the building dept. was a good one. It is better insurance for us - & our dog - & I thought the same would work for you.

I'll leave you to bicker with someone else.

Merry Christmas!


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