# compulsion training



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

My husband and I have used the same trainer for both GSDs, the trainer uses compulsion techniques in which I have not been comfortable with but my husband went through training with our first GSD and he is very well behaved. Bella on the other hand. I feel that the compulsion training has made her self confidence come down to nothing. 
This trainer had us doing dominant downs on our puppies in puppy classes and is about using harsh corrections and using choke collars with corrections.. voice tone etc. 
Well my husband first started working with Bella when she was younger and this should have been my first clue but with any of his corrections with either the choke collar or voice corrections she would cower. Then anytime after the training he would do with her she would urinate if he went to pet her. The trainer tells us to yank her up from a lay down position with the choke collar correction to get her up. Now we have used the compulsion training with Bella as a pup and then for about a month when she was 15 months old. 
I dont see anything good coming out of this. She lacks in self confidence now and is frieghtful of pretty much everything. 

I am trying to find a different trainer now that only uses positive reinforcement. This method is not working but its been hard because my husband is sooo all for compulsion training and I am not so we are torn in opinions and I have not raised my voice or my opinion because everytime I do he has something to say about it. Or says I am not working hard enough in the compulsion training to get results. 
I am going to start in the meantime doing some positive reinforcement training and basically trying to earn her trust and not be so afraid of the outside world. Its going to take a long time but I will get there. We will get there. 
Anyone recommend some good books or dvds they can recommend for me to watch in the meantime while I am trying to find a new trainer??? and please dont flame me... I am going to work hard on turning this situation around. I am going to put my foot down and tell my husband that I will no longer be doing the compulsion training with Bella. 
Thanks for listening.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Would you be interested in using a clicker? as in clicker training? I would probably start there if I were you. I like Peggy Tilmans Clicking with your Dog. it's an easy read, gives you tons of examples on training a behavior in detail using a clicker.

I think if I were you, I would just tell your husband,,you train Kahn the way you want, I'll train Bella the way I want..doesn't have to be an argument about it just explain you feel what may be working for one is not working for Bella.

I don't train any one specific way, I train what works for the dog. My female aussie for example, is a pretty sensitive dog, high handed training with her, shuts her down, and just would not be good for her,,she thrives on positive training/clicker ..

My female that is passed, and my present one, totally positive was like giving them a free pass to do whatever they liked, corrections were necessary, they were/are tough dogs, and while I use positive, I also use corrections when necessary..

It sounds like Bella would do much better with the clicker/positive reward training, and that's the way I'd go with her..

Good luck, I think it's never to late to work on turning things around, we all continue to learn and try to rectify mistakes..


----------



## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Kristen-I would never FLAME you but one thing is true "A dog cannot serve two masters"You two humans have to agree -the dog has no choice and no real voice.I am Not fan of compulsive training -but some high drive dominant dogs need just a taste and in a rare case maybe more.Recommend you both get on the same side.What WORKED for one dog has NOTHING to do with another.Or as an alternative if you can't agree decide who is training this dog.Maybe either or both of you are right or wrong-PLEASE don't confuse the dog.


----------



## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

Awesome Kristen! 

There is nothing more enjoying than a dog who obeys because they want to, enjoy it, and are happy and joyful doing so. 

Complusion training is so old school. Anyone who has been training dogs long enough started out that way...so don't feel guilty. 

Take your husband to a schutzhund trial or AKC obedience competition...all todays top performers are all taught through motivation. Not to say complusion isn't used later once a behavoir is learned to bring it all together. But yes, it is simply unfair to correct and yank on a dog who is learning and doesn't understand what is being asked of him/her. Such training methods naturally will put a dog into avoidance. Our breed has been bred for generation upon generation to naturally want to please and do, with the extra bonus of play and food drive to make it all that much easier!


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kristin, first of all the best thing what you can do right now is to take a break from any training and just play with Bella and start rebuilding the trust. Anton and Bella have the same sire so they may have a similar personality and my way with Anton can be of some help for you in understanding Bella. 

Anton matures very slowly and no way I could start training him in 15 weeks. We were probably just playing and socializing and having good time until he was 6-8 months old, and even in classes he couldn't hold attention more than 15-20 min when other dogs of his age where getting there CGCs and did obedience drills like pros. It would be very counterproductive to force him into compliance when he wasn't ready. We started working on real obedience just now and he's almost 2 years old, but boy he gets everything within a split second now, he's a joy. I'm so glad I was patient.

Compulsion doesn't work on him, never did. He's a little handler sensitive so I don't need a prong to make him do what I ask him to do, voice corrections are enough. He's impossible to force into anything, he doesn't work FOR me because I said so, he works WITH me because he wants to if it makes sense. He doesn't want to please me, he wants to do things with me that happen to be fun like hiking, or tracking, or obedience, or fetch. After I started throwing more games into our obedience and everyday routine everything became so much easier. 

What are you working on with Bella right now? Does she do obedience or SchH and what are the problems that the trainer requires to use compulsive methods for?

I recommend Ivan Balabanov's DVDs for teaching obedience, I found them to be very helpful.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Good for you, Kristin-- good for Bella! You're looking out for her best interests here.









Switching from compulsive to motivational was amazing. The look in the dog's eyes is now: "Here's a Sit, Ma! A Sit! Do you like that, Ma? Huh? Do ya?? What are we gonna do NEXT, Ma-- a heel? A down?? Let me guess it-- let ME!!" 

Night and day.

Motivational means anticipating fun stuff a-comin'. It doesn't nessesarily mean zero corrections, but the dog is happily anticipating the kewl stuff be it toy, soothing praise, food, whatever works for that dog. You get caught up in the positive fun stuff, too. Everybody wins.







The focus is lighter, happier, and perhaps Bella can relax more.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I would recommend clicker training. I have seen big improvements in confidence using clicker training and positive reinforcement.
When I got Bianca she had very little confidence and was very insecure. I am pretty sure the training style her previous owner used (prong collar, 'alpha roll' etc) was a big part of the reason. I think that's just not the right style for her, she doesn't respond well to physical corrections and harsh tones. I have been using positive reinforcement based training with her since I got her and switched her off any sort of collar at all (I use a front-attach harness or a Halti) and her confidence has been improving a lot, as has her leash reactivity. I don't use any compulsion or negative reinforcement.

If your husband has an issue with it I would highly recommend having the trainer (when you find one) talk with him in depth to explain things. Maybe you can also explain to him why you think the method is not working well for her-- you can explain that different dogs have different training needs (like people have different learning styles) and the one you have been using has not given the results you want so it's time to try something different.

As far as books, I would recommend:

The Culture Clash The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson

Click for Joy by Melissa C. Alexander

Control Unleashed - Creating a Focused and Confident Dog by Leslie McDevitt

The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training by Paul Owens (there is also a DVD by Paul Owens with the same name.)


----------



## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I actually try to clicker train my husband....


----------



## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

I would never use harsh training on mellow dog!

I have used hard training ( 0nce ) on one Rescue that was just WILD. We are talking roll the dog over when it bites and bite it back kind of stuff! I always had to keep ontop of being the boss! If the dog already knows your the boss and respects you why scare it into peeing everywhere?

As for clickers...... bacon works also. 

I never ever trained a dog past a certain point. You reach a place where you take their spirit and will from them to reach your ideas of a *trained* dog. 

For myself, I just want well behaved friend. If it wants to learn to play hide and seek by tracking that is ok. That is ll I want from a dog these days. I have a drawer full of ribbons from when I was 12 taking Dad's dogs to shows and competitions. And you know what? When I was 12 all I used to teach a dog was bacon and love. I don't need a dog that stays for 24 hours in the same spot just because I told it to.


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I've enjoyed the book "The Thinking Dog". It is about clicker training and goes into great lengths about cross over training, ie from complulsion to clicker. This book may be perfect for you. I read it in the summer and will be re-reading it this winter.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

serving two masters, i think they can. my GF and i both
trained our dog. both of us spent time with our alone. we spent
time with our dog together training and giving general care/quality time. both us trained in the same manner. we used the same language. our dog listens to both of us equally well. since our dogs 
don't have a choice why do you think they'll choose one person
over another. if both parties get involved with the dog equally i think the dog will respond equally. mine always responded to both parties equally.



> Originally Posted By: ttalldogKristen-I would never FLAME you but one thing is true "A dog cannot serve two masters"You two humans have to agree -the dog has no choice and no real voice.I am Not fan of compulsive training -but some high drive dominant dogs need just a taste and in a rare case maybe more.Recommend you both get on the same side.What WORKED for one dog has NOTHING to do with another.Or as an alternative if you can't agree decide who is training this dog.Maybe either or both of you are right or wrong-PLEASE don't confuse the dog.


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: rokanhausI actually try to clicker train my husband....


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I think by serving 2 masters, TTall meant serving 2 masters with 2 methods. 

My story of 2 dogs, Luther and Morgan. Both rescues. Luther was a little less than 2 when we got him. The original wayward dog of our Home for Wayward German Shepherds. Luther dog outweighed me, there was no rolling him. My husband Bobby tried, he got bit. 

Bobby had a police trainer (according to Bobby, I wasn't there) tell him to back the dog up to a wall on his hind legs and pin him when he was being aggressive. He got bit. 

I got the dog into training classes where the first thing the trainer said was put him in a prong collar. I took classes for a few weeks without Bob. Then he came with me and the trainer (whom he always later referred to as the Dog Nazi) was very strict with him about how he was to be walking the dog. 

She didn't want Bobby messing up all the progress I'd made with Luther. Luther grew to walk perfectly, if his handler was giving him clear instruction in a firm tone and praise for his good work. Bobby learned to walk the dog in formation and speak to him like a drill sargent becuase that's what that dog responded to. 

Morgan was totally different. There had been some wayward fosters who came through our house in between Luther and Morgan. My husband had learned some new training tricks but he was mostly a praise or correction kinda guy because that was what had worked for him.

Morgan was 6 months old when she came here. She'd been living on the streets, brought in as a stray, she was just shattered. Luther's trainer had told me about Morgan, helped me eval her and stood there with me while Morgan watched us from inside her shelter cell.

When Bobby saw her the first day, she just melted his heart. She ran the other way. She was terrified of men. He would take off his belt and she'd go hide. He'd pick up the cordless phone, she'd start shaking. Who knows what happened to her

He wanted so badly for her to be Daddy's little girl that he put her on the couch with him the second day she was here. I took this picture then, scared out of her mind or what? 










There was no training her how Luther needed to be handled. She needed patience and love, treats didn't work for her. She needed praise and kisses. Took a long time but that messed up little girl grew to trust him and love him. When we'd walk the dogs, Bobby always had Luther and I always had my pretty little girl.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Chicagocanine's recommendations of Culture Clash and Control Unleashed are excellent, I think both books are great in different ways, and to that list I'd add Sheila Booth's Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition. 

Culture Clash really helped me get my head around learning to think the way a dog does and made me want to try and understand the world from their point of view. It's not so much a "how to" type book, (although there are some specific training exercises towards the back of the book, if I remember correctly), for me it was more about grasping the general philosophy of positive reinforcement training - what it is and why it works. I read it at least 10 years ago, and remember it as being the one single book that had the most impact on me up to that point, the book that I wanted to loan to every dog owner I know. Her style is direct and simple, everything she says makes perfect sense - you're left thinking "well, of course, why didn't I think of that?", but she does not talk down to the reader. 

Control Unleashed is a simply amazing book full of exercises to help motivate dogs that get stressed out and shut down, and on the opposite end of the spectrum, to create a calm and focused partner if your dog is reactive. It might not be the best starter book if you're not well versed in the concepts of operant conditioning, but she does explain everything in a very clear way, and her respect and love for dogs is evident throughout. It's laid out like a training class, with a chapter on what would be covered each week. Many of the exercises you can do on your own, but some require other dogs so they would be difficult to set up without a group of friends and their dogs to work together with. She doesn't cover the sit/down/stay basics, but a lot of the exercises are great foundation work, such as teaching a whiplash turn and reorienting at thresholds, among others, and I've used many of them while raising Halo. Leslie also has a companion DVD, (which is apparently of very high production quality), that demonstrates everything in the book. I was on her email list before she discontinued it to work on her next book, and I personally think she's a genius. Pretty much everyone would find something of value in her wonderful book. 

If you're new to the concept of positive reinforcement training and want some nuts and bolts of how to train this way, Purely Positive Training would be the perfect place to start. Not only does she explain how it works and why it's better, (which she has proven by earning numerous obedience, agility, and Schutzhund titles with her own dogs), she tells you exactly how to train each behavior depending on whether your goal is a well behaved companion dog, or to compete in obedience, or agility, or Schutzhund. If you want the theory AND the technique, a "how to" manual, this is your book: http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB588


----------



## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

key is you both had the same idea of the way you interacted with your dog.If 2 people act as ONE it is NOT that 'dog will only obey one master' he will obey you both equally.If two people have very opposite ways of training -in a stable dog the dog will pick the strongest leader to follow.AN UNSTABLE dog may be soo confused that he becomes an emotional cripple and very unstable and unreliable as to following any reasonable command from either conflicting trainers(owners).Two need to act as one.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've also heard good things about "The Thinking Dog: Crossover to Clicker Training" by Gail Fisher


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

Thank You all SOOO much! you have been such a help and made me motivated to keep my decision. 

One of the past trainers of the place we trained Kahn and Bella that I was talking about caught drift from someone that I was looking for a new trainer for Bella or new method. She sent me an e-mail telling me the reason Bella acts the way she does is because I did not complete "the full 11 weeks of training" I sent her a pretty simple e mail back just stating what worked for Kahn is not working for Bella or even myself. 

To be honest I have not been comfortable in more than one training methods at this place so therefore I too have had low self confidence doing those things to my dog while she stares up at me confused to as why I am pushing and pulling her around. 

She has always had these confidence issues but is also now scared to put on her prong and choke collars because she knows nothing good comes out of them. She is afraid of strangers because fear is taking over and the current situation is my husband has been gone for about 2 months in Iraq so she follows me like her lil shadow and is all kinds of protective of me anyhow but now with my husband gone and just me and her in the house she is near defensive. 

Today she even got scared of a plastic bag that was blowing in the wind, hackles raised barking madly at it then trying to hide. We socialized her well but since training and then she had medical issues as a young puppy she does not like people too well. She gets really tense and starts to bark or growl at new people and then tries to hide. This is the problem I need to turn around and quickly. I dont want her to bite out of fear. However I DO know that I can handle her well on a leash. She listens well to me while on the leash but will try to hide behind me. Like I said.. I have a long way and a lot of work to go to reverse what has been done here.


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Kristin, first of all the best thing what you can do right now is to take a break from any training and just play with Bella and start rebuilding the trust. Anton and Bella have the same sire so they may have a similar personality and my way with Anton can be of some help for you in understanding Bella.
> 
> Anton matures very slowly and no way I could start training him in 15 weeks. We were probably just playing and socializing and having good time until he was 6-8 months old, and even in classes he couldn't hold attention more than 15-20 min when other dogs of his age where getting there CGCs and did obedience drills like pros. It would be very counterproductive to force him into compliance when he wasn't ready. We started working on real obedience just now and he's almost 2 years old, but boy he gets everything within a split second now, he's a joy. I'm so glad I was patient.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much Oksana. I think I forget too how they mature at a slower rate. Bella too is very handler sensitive but what is sad is this has made her have zero confidence now. I will need to start from scratch which is ok with me. Bella is awsome with basic obedience with me. She sits and stays she lays down and she heals pretty well. 
Some of the things the trainer suggested that we did and worked but I dont know if it helped at all were if she tried to run away while off leash take choke collar and throw it at her back legs... soooo now she is also scared of the choke collar because of that... then for barking and whining as a puppy in the crate we were told to spray the pup with water just real quick in the face and say "ous!". That too worked but as you can imagine she is now TERRIFIED of water... I kind of feel like a real jerk that I listened to this...


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

I told my husband that I would not be using the training methods he uses and what we learned previously. He was a lil defensive and just said how "weird my dog was" and "well... good luck with that" in the end i think it will all work out ok though. I am hoping for the best.


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

There is a TON of great information on here for you. I only wanted to add a book That I have that is VERY much a positive training book. It has pictures and step by step instructions on how to teach many different commands(...i mean skills.







)

She also lays down a great foundation for how to read you dog and understand what going on in that little head of hers.

The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: IluvmyBellaNKahnI told my husband that I would not be using the training methods he uses and what we learned previously. He was a lil defensive and just said how "weird my dog was" and "well... good luck with that" in the end i think it will all work out ok though. I am hoping for the best.


That's okay - you said he'd deployed right now, so it's actually a great time for you to try a new method. By the time he gets back you'll be able to impress him with your progress and hopefully win him over to the idea that there's more than one way to train a dog! Good luck and have fun!!!


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomThat's okay - you said he'd deployed right now, so it's actually a great time for you to try a new method. By the time he gets back you'll be able to impress him with your progress and hopefully win him over to the idea that there's more than one way to train a dog! Good luck and have fun!!!


That's what I'm thinking. 

Some of the methods you describe these 'trainers' teaching are for a hard dog. Works for some boys but it's not my style and I have a hard headed boy, who's growing up to be a pretty good boy despite what my husband would have called sissified clicky noise training









Another thing to consider is your girl is only what 15 months old? It's a flaky age. Her Daddy has gone off, the whole dynamics of the pack have changed, the routine has changed and here's this puppy-dog (not quite either right now) left wondering what's going on.

I think books would be good for you and this forum too. Pick one thing you want to start on with her and just ask. Somebody has got have been there and fixed that!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I recommend this DVD. The one on playing tug is to be released next and then competitive heeling. If you already understand the basics of marker training then this video is a great next step:


http://leerburg.com/220.htm


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Concept is pretty much like two legged children.

Used to be "spare the rod, spoil the child."


A child or animal can be forced to do anything to avoid pain, but neither flourishes under threats - both shine when praised and rewarded.


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

it depends on the dog. Paige was like Cujo and needed to be brought in line. My other three dogs I would never use aversive training with.i also don't let other people handle my dogs, trainer or not.
Don't get over emotional about it. The dog is not ruined for life. If you are trying to put a choke on and you are talking in baby talk or saying "it's ok" it will increase the fear.If the dog acts fearful your reaction SHOULD NOT BE TO CODDLE HER. Be more matter of fact.
Paige ended up liking training because I brought steak and we would go to the park afterward.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I really don't think compulsion training has much place in the training an everyday pet. They're pets for crying out loud. Let them be pets. There are only a few things in a pet dog that I feel like to be "proofed" with compulsion: recall and maybe the down. I think with the other stuff, good enough is good enough. For example, I don't get why people fuss about "heeling" so much with pets - to the point that they are screaming at the dog and yanking their chains - when (1) what they are doing is not heeling anyway (more like "don't walk ahead of me") and (2) you don't need a dog to heel to walk a mile down the street and they have no idea how unrealistic that is. A competition dog would have trouble heeling 15 minutes straight. If you are just out for a walk, loose leash is good enough.

In competition dogs, yes ... of course, only after the foundation is properly laid and the dog shows that he can handle the pressure.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: IluvmyBellaNKahnMy husband and I have used the same trainer for both GSDs, the trainer uses compulsion techniques in which I have not been comfortable with but my husband went through training with our first GSD and he is very well behaved.


You can pretty much bullied and scared most dogs into a well behaved dog. But then what's the point? If you want to a dog that shows no life, doesn't make a sound, and just sits there until you tell him to move, you might as well just not get a dog to begin. It's cheaper that way.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinI think with the other stuff, good enough is good enough. For example, I don't get why people fuss about "heeling" so much with pets - to the point that they are screaming at the dog and yanking their chains - when (1) what they are doing is not heeling anyway (more like "don't walk ahead of me") and (2) you don't need a dog to heel to walk a mile down the street and they have no idea how unrealistic that is. A competition dog would have trouble heeling 15 minutes straight. If you are just out for a walk, loose leash is good enough.


I agree, and "good enough" is something that everyone gets to decide for themselves, whatever makes the most sense based on their lifestyle and what they plan to do with their dogs. For someone who is going to be doing a lot of walking with their dog on city streets around lots of people a nice heel would be more important than to someone who is going to be walking in areas where there aren't crowds of people to maneuver. For them, just having their dog near their side, somewhat close, and not trying to drag them down the street is probably good enough. 

For me, a pretty heel would be nice to have, but I've never put a lot of time and effort into teaching it because there are other things that are a much higher priority to me, and I prefer to spend my time working on those instead. When someone asks how to teach heel I always ask what kind of heel they're looking for - a competition attention heel, or just a loose leash with the dog near their side. I take my dogs for walks that are 3-4 miles at least, and up to 5 or 6 miles. They're always training walks, I bring my clicker and treats and I reward the behavior I want, which is basically polite loose leash walking, and checking in with me from time to time. I want them to be aware of me at the other end of the leash, but they don't need to be looking at me the entire time. There's just no way they can or should be able to be in perfect heel position for that amount of time!


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

when you have a dog capable of injuring someone you need to make it clear to the dog that it better chill out. I'm not one who cares if my dog walks beside me but if you have a dog that will LUNG at people you darn well better get that dog in line and a cookie aint' going to do it.
I guess I am one of the only people here that will admit that I have an aggressive GSD. She is smart, dominant, intimidating and her life DREAM is to take someone down.The only reason that she hasn't bitten someone in the last ELEVEN years is because of training with trainers who laid down the law. they told me straight up that it wasn't going to be all pretty. I guess paige is a very unique GSD.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Her life dream is to take someone down? You should have gotten her in sports! She would have made one heck of a schH dog.

Seriously though - if the dog has a full blown aggression problem (as in "her life dream to take someone down"), then, yes, force is necessary. Although at point I would not call that training. It's more management than training. 

And who knows how the dog got that way. Sometimes it's genetic. Sometimes it's upbringing or a combination of two. And sometimes people deliberately breed aggression, fight, and hardness into their dogs (Ike came from a breeding like that). But - back to OP's case - I still say there's absolutely no need to use force on a young dog - even if they are crazy or "aggressive" - and I would say there's no need to use force on most pet dogs out there either.


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

yeah I disagree Suzy mainly because my pup was great prior to training. She was uber confident until we started the compulsion training. As the training went on I saw each day her confidence get worse and worse to basically nothing. So me being as you say "hard on her" is not going to do anything positive at this point. Later after I build her confidence I may go back to some compulsion if I need to get her in control. I know that I can do that but she gets to the point where she becomes frieghtened of her handlers so i dont feel at this time this is a good suggestion. Maybe a year or so down the line I may bring in some things like the corrections with the choke collars etc but not likely to do that anytime real soon.


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

Also I feel that Bella does not have the true aggression that cannot be fixed with time. She has zero confidence that I have to build up which I know that fear aggresion can be the hardest and worst to fix but I am not going to believe that I cannot turn it around.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also believe things can be turned around with most dogs, or atleast managed.

I know other have heard my rant about masi's negative puppy experience with a purely positive puppy class, but here's a quick example of turning things around..when I got her, she was very social, with people, kids, dogs, ok,,I decided to try a purely positive class (and I am not knocking purely positive, just this one) with her,,enrolled her when she was around 4 mths old,,well it was more like a free for all, vs training. Lack of control , and every week we went, she would get "jumped"/charged by another puppy, (they weren't being mean, but she didn't know that, it was to much commotion, to crowded, got to the point, I had to practically carry her in the place, and she became VERY defensive . (I'm gonna get you before you get me)

these 'experiences' rolled over into real life, she started getting pretty defensive in the big wide world, lunging at cars, lunging at people, highly suspicious.. I yanked her out of the class, but the damage was done, and I felt terrible.

I laid off her obedience, just let her be a dog, socialized her to death, took her everywhere..Then went to a different training facility, who yes, does not do purely positive training, but it wasn't compulsion either. The trainer allowed me to come for "Free" and hang out with her behind a gate and just watch the classes..After the first week, she was so relaxed, laying on the floor, would even nap!! Class dogs would slowly start to approach her, maybe a sniff thru the gate, We did this for 4 weeks,,I then brought her into the room with the dogs, and we sat on the side,,

The turnaround was amazing, she was relaxed, social, even made a couple of doggie friends )) 

I then did a class with her, and she was fine, she "wanted" to go in there, that told me I hadn't messed her up for life)

Now she's 19mts old, and I can take her anywhere, cramped quarters isn't a favorite of hers, but she is ok with it. She doesn't particularly like strange dogs in her face, we avoid those kind of instances..She's a very confident dog, listens well, (can go anywhere off leash) and I'm so thankful I was able to turn this amazing dog around..I also attribute it to good genes))

So, don't loose hope,,I'd lay off her, work on your bond with her, and let her be a 'dog',,I think you'll do ok ))


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

I guess I was lucky to find the right trainers for Paige. She was also fear aggressive. They told me to quit thinking about the cause of her aggression and just see it as black/white. Mind you my dog was ready to attack these people. Three weeks later she was no longer the "bad dog" in class. Every situation is unique but they gave me the right advice for Paige.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think also, when we as owners, are always on 'high alert', that can send this message right down the leash.

I've learned to trust my dog much more, and while I am still vigilant, (with all mydogs), I am more relaxed when going into situations..


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

definately agree all situations are unique because my other GSD Kahn... He was trained purely on compulsion and is a very well mannered dog. Confident and loves to work for you. 
Bella definately does not want to attack every person she sees, we have had that one incident but now as I think of it because of her confidence made it a scary situation, she comes running outside with me in the dark and there is a man she does not know and children she has never seen outside her house,plus I have no children and I am just personally not a kid person.. so this is the problem about socializing her with children really lays on my shoulders and is my fault. I am even scared of kids.. they stress me out and this I know she feels. 
Like you said Diane I know they can feel our emotions through the leash and I too lack some confidence from time to time however I am pretty confident when I am Bella's handler. I do believe I have total control over her IF I needed to. 
Another case in point that happened a few years ago.I was walking Kahn at dusk and I began to get nervous when I saw two teenage boys on the same side of us walking with hoods on, you could not see thier faces and as we passed Kahn reacted, he barked and lunged. The kids went running but I know Kahn could feel that they made me nervous.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kristin, you are a great handler! Every dog teaches us something new and we do need to adjust and I'm so happy that you are doing this. And we make mistakes. I did my share of mistakes and still do and I have a hard time to get over it, too. 

Do you have any agility classes you can attend? That's a really good confidence booster for a dog. I remember when Anton got on the A-frame for the first time he looked like he was on the top of the world and so full of himself







He forgot about barking at other dogs, he just wanted to get on that A-frame again







I was taking him to just sit and watch agility class when he was going through 'bark at everything' period, and then after the class was over we were trying obstacles. 

About kids, just go and hang out by the playgrounds. You don't need to get into contact with kids, you just need to have Bella get used to their movement, noise they make and appearance. Take a book and spend some time sitting on a park bench with Bella. Or play tug with her or something she enjoys, or give her treats near school during busy hours.

I do not think Bella has weak nerves because I was following your posts since you got her, I think she was just forced into submission against her will and she needs time to recover. Play with her as much as possible, I'm serious!


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> Seriously though - if the dog has a full blown aggression problem (as in "her life dream to take someone down"), then, yes, force is necessary. Although at point I would not call that training. It's more management than training.


I don't agree that force is necessary. I know people who rehabilitate aggressive dogs with NO force at all. In fact I think force can actually cause more problems as it may suppress the behavior but not solve the underlying cause. Plus if you are controlling them through force and intimidation they might decide to use force right back at you.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Dogs are very different as was stated many times in this thread. In this case force is not meant to suppress any behavior but to communicate to the dog in crystal clear terms what behavior is except able and what is not. Force is being a tool that is directed at solving the underlying cause which in most cases is confusion in the dog's mind. Force doesn't equal intimidation and doesn't mean alfa rolls and beating the dog with a stick. Strong prong correction is force. Stepping on a leash to prevent dog from breaking down stay is a force. Physical removing a dog from the situation is force.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I use to be "positive only" but now having a sound, more confident dog and using all different types of tools and methods in various contexts, I truly believe that a sound dog benefits from a balance of training methods and that sometimes includes corrections, positive punishment, compulsion, negative reinforcement or whatever you like to call it (but an unsound dog, maybe not appropriate). I don't really like to train using compulsion (and by this I do not simply mean corrections, but training the behavior start to finish using physical pressure/negative reinforcement so the dog basically learns the behavior in order to "turn off" the pressure), but I have done it with two behaviors so far. I'll put myself out there and share this video I made this morning with a purpose of showing someone on another board how I train with a ball and play. We are really just messing around for the most part but I asked the dog to demonstrate a few things (mainly to give an idea of the ratio of ball/prey/play to actual obedience being done). Can you pick out which behavior was trained with compulsion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_DBGP-zCfQ


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

sometimes i feel like I am on the golden retriever board,lol.Luckily for y'all you probably will never even come across a dog as strong willed as Paige.Even the trainers thought she was extraordinary.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Suzy, you seem convinced that no one has ever successfully dealt with a dog like Paige in any way except the way you chose. While I am glad that you found what worked for the two of you, my visceral response to your post is to have a rewarding fantasy image of a golden biting you hard square on the buttocks! 

There are a great variety of ways to handle any given situation. There are serious limitations to the web as a training tool. I use as much positive as I can with any dog I have any more. The limits to this method are on me, not the dog. The old hard







compulsion trainer stuff seeps out every now and again. I don't think it helps the situation. What I like about positive training above all is the relationship it gives me with my dogs. I've had great relationships with dogs I trained using compulsion - but I think they would have been greater with more positive training. Of course I think that way. Otherwise I wouldn't be doing it!


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

i can only go by my experience and the "positive only" trainers were not able to handle her. They would have worked fine with my other three dogs. I am VERY thankful I finally landed with people that were effective with her and did more in 6 weeks than anyone else did in three years. They were the difference in her living a more fullfilled life and being able to go places.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SuzyE...did more in 6 weeks than anyone else did in three years.


 Suzy, it's like eating 3 doughnuts and then a roll and saying wow, the roll was the only food that finally could curb my hunger.


----------



## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I think when training is "something" only, ("positive only" for example)it is flawed. All dogs, situations, handlers, etc are different and training should be a fair balance of compulsion, pressure, correction AND positive reinforcement, rewards, play etc.


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

I do agree Kelly, Once I get Bella good to go on her confidence I will still use some compulsion, ie using a prong collar with corrections if she pulls me etc.. but I hope to create a balance but for now I need to make things fun for her and build her up again.


----------



## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't get that analagy at all but whatever. I agree with Kelly, is good to have flexibility with anything. The puff puff trainers only assisted in making my dog worse. I am so thankful for the people that really took Paige on-individually and changed the course of her life. Like I have said before-I must have a very unique GSD.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

SuzyE,

Oksana is saying the use of compulsion should only come after a long period of positive work with the dog. You must first build the dog up, get him happy, strong, solid, and confident before you can start putting pressure on him. If you let the dog develop a problem to such an extent that the only way to deal with it is with force, then we are talking about management and not training and one has to wonder how did the problem get that bad in the first place.

For example, if I have a dog that lunges at kids. Well, one way to stop it is to strap him to a dogstra, turn the dial all the way up, and next time he even so much as look at the kid, I light him up. Pretty soon he's going to stop. Some may call that training but not me.

The three doughnuts are the positive foundation, roll is the hammer. There is nothing puff puff about it. Some of the trainers I know who are the most extreme in handling pups and young dogs with velvet gloves are also the one who are hardest on their adult dogs ...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't understand how motivational training could be called "puff puff"........


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI use to be "positive only" but now having a sound, more confident dog and using all different types of tools and methods in various contexts, I truly believe that a sound dog benefits from a balance of training methods and that sometimes includes corrections, positive punishment, compulsion, negative reinforcement or whatever you like to call it (but an unsound dog, maybe not appropriate). I don't really like to train using compulsion (and by this I do not simply mean corrections, but training the behavior start to finish using physical pressure/negative reinforcement so the dog basically learns the behavior in order to "turn off" the pressure), but I have done it with two behaviors so far. I'll put myself out there and share this video I made this morning with a purpose of showing someone on another board how I train with a ball and play. We are really just messing around for the most part but I asked the dog to demonstrate a few things (mainly to give an idea of the ratio of ball/prey/play to actual obedience being done). Can you pick out which behavior was trained with compulsion?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_DBGP-zCfQ


Platz and stand?


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Having been all over the place with training, I am always trying different things. I was watching old Sylvia Bishop the other day. She did not like how her dogs worked with avoidance training and set out to do differently many years ago. She has an interesting approach that she developed out of the old school methods into working the dog in drive. I don't think it went as far as newer methods now, but has some interesting components.

I have recently started adding compulsion early on. No correction collars or leash though. I began with some of Sylvia's type work. This training is hard as it is play,play,play and fast moving. She does a lot of physicality with the pup and does some physical placement. I think this does communicate something early on to a dog who is a physical creature itself. There is a form of compulsion in it with no drop in dogs attitude.

With my current pup and two rescues I started the concept of steering during heeling early also.

Now, all behaviors I teach with lots of operant conditioning and they are learned without a lot of pressure. But, I think I may have gained something by adding a subtle message early on about the training relationship. I don't like to wait too long to add pressure, but the pressure I am talking about is very subtle.

As to how a dog is trained has a lot to do with the dog and with the handler. I had to learn how to establish a training relationship before I got things to go well quickly. I have utilized compulsion with dogs whose handlers were not highly skilled at training and the establishment of a relationship. It didn't kill those dogs to get some correction. In fact, the harder temperament ones seemed to say.... "finally, you are worth listening to" to the owner. 

There are just so many factors involved it is difficult to "prescribe" a method. You have to see the entire picture of the "team" as the human is the larger component most of the time, I find. 

Learning to read a dog is also critical to training. I think this is probably the largest thing I might offer to new trainers when working with them. They can learn the mechanics of training, but the other parts take more experience.


----------



## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

Just wanted to say you guys have been a ton of help for me and giving me the inspiration to do this also. I too will agree that I need to use the positive training as of right now and later in life with her will add some compulsion back in when she is ready and I feel her confidence is rebuilt. 

Thanks again for all the great suggestions too as far as books, dvds etc.. I will keep you updated with our ups and downs as I go. I am sure I will have more questions in the future!


----------



## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

I liked culture clash also. I would take a look at some of the video links on leerburg about training with markers. You can use your voice as a clicker with "yes" as an example to mark the behavior. There is a five part youtube link with some great training advice that uses all positive training methods, more fun for you and your dog.


----------



## Hansdale (Dec 7, 2009)

I have used both methods to train dogs. I was the biggest fan of choker chains, for many years.
When I moved to new area and finally found an obidience club,they only used the clicker method and rewards of cause.I was so amazed how quickly our puppy learnt his stuff. I really did not think this praise and reward would work I thought that I should get the choker out to get results that I was after. How wrong I was.
Now the clicker and target method is all I use. Once I was shown how to use them.lol. 
Now that we have Melody our GSD she has only ever been trained this way. she is great .She was a kennel dog and we got her at 6 months so her socialisation was not so good but she learnt her basic obidience and was 1st in her class.eacher was suprised that she came along so well being hr age and being a only kenneled.
her training treats were ones I made. She'd do backflips for baked ox heart cubes.


----------

