# Dip in withers



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

If you're not sure what I'm talking about here's a picture..









Is this common in dogs only with flat withers?

Are there any increased risks in back problems?

Is it only common in certain lines?

Is this something relatively new in the breed?

Looking to learn as much as possible


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Subscribed.

I read somewhere that it can be 'corrected with proper muscling', but I have no idea if that is true.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Can be found in dogs with both correct withers (not seen all that often anymore) and flat withers. 

Not that I know of.

No, found in all lines.

No.

I have also seen it improved with exercise especially biking which is also good for improvement of the withers.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks Lisa!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder if walking the dog and letting the dog pull you(wearing a harness) will help strengthen the area? Not that we encourage pulling, but when I walk Karlo on the trails I let him pull to tone his muscles.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it is somewhat common in all lines. Someone who is very well known and active in the show world told me that most dogs have it to some degree and it usually means nothing other than the aesthetics of the topline, and most show people groom it so that it isn't noticeable. Not sure if it truly happens to that extent but my show line dog had it and I never really bothered with it. He told me if I brushed my dog a certain way on a regular basis, the cow lick would go away. Same with the common cow licks where the dog's tail attaches.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The "dip" is often particularly pronounced with dogs who play a lot of ball as their primary source of exercise. If you look at this drawing of the musculature of a GSD, you can sort of see that the place where there is a dip is where a bunch of muscles meet.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

lhczth said:


> I have also seen it improved with exercise especially biking which is also good for improvement of the withers.


But it can be kind of hard to get them to stay on the bike.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> The "dip" is often particularly pronounced with dogs who play a lot of ball as their primary source of exercise. If you look at this drawing of the musculature of a GSD, you can sort of see that the place where there is a dip is where a bunch of muscles meet.


Why do fetch games cause that? 


:rofl: Emoore good one!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Why do fetch games cause that?


Think about the muscles used--it's like wind-sprints versus jogging 10 miles.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Gotcha!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Compare and contrast. 










http://youtu.be/ClMmz5rHyNE


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

I'm kind of wierded out by this dog raising its "hackles" during a exercise routine....


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

KLCecil said:


> I'm kind of wierded out by this dog raising its "hackles" during a exercise routine....


Some dogs hackle when they are aroused - as in, I know a dog that hackles when she is playing with her ball or playing fetch


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have had a few dogs who hackle when excited. They even hackle when happy about something. It does not always mean aggression and can mean that their emotions are high.


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## GSDOWNED (Mar 16, 2010)

Mia hackles when we get out of the truck for Rally class. She's always so excited to get there. She usually starts whimpering about a mile before we make it to the class destination.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Emoore said:


> But it can be kind of hard to get them to stay on the bike.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I am weirded of how the handler rewards spinning to the right, and then expect the dog not to crowd while heeling.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> I have had a few dogs who hackle when excited. They even hackle when happy about something. It does not always mean aggression and can mean that their emotions are high.


The other day I was looking at some photos of Nikon lure coursing and I noticed any time he was close to the lure, his hackles were up. I've also noticed (mostly in photos - my husband likes to throw the toy at me so I can get pics of the dogs running toward me rather than away) that he hackles when he comes right on the toy. I chalk it up to a general sense of arousal (not sexual arousal, but prey, aggression...whatever).


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## Bristol (Apr 14, 2011)

unloader said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> I read somewhere that it can be 'corrected with proper muscling', but I have no idea if that is true.


I do think thats true but I'm not so sure either.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Not sure about the compare and contrast. They are different behaviors, apples and oranges, what's to compare? My dog moves like the gaiter when she is trotting and like the other dog when she is playing (sans hackling).


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Not sure about the compare and contrast. They are different behaviors, apples and oranges, what's to compare? My dog moves like the gaiter when she is trotting and like the other dog when she is playing (sans hackling).


That's the point. 

If you do almost only tugging and ball playing every day (completely different activity than trotting, using and strengthening different muscles) then your dog will develop different muscles.

There is definitely a genetic/conformation component, but there's also a huge effect from what the dog *does*--lots of tugging and pulling with the back muscles? Lots of high speed chases with sudden stops and turns?

Or lots of trotting at a steady pace with few high-speed turns and occasional walking and galloping?


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Can someone post a picture of a dog with "correct" withers?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Here's a good example of the dip behind the withers (which is the description used in breed surveys):









Here's a working-line dog with a nice topline:


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

So, in front of the dip should be sloped up and not flat, is that correct?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

The OP's dog has a very straight front and it looks like the bone structure is causing the dip in the withers. Bodies follow the lines of the underlying structure. His lack of angulation is 'pulling down' his withers.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

cassadee7 said:


> Can someone post a picture of a dog with "correct" withers?


My avatar shows correct withers and top line, unfortunately it's not a clear picture.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Here's a good example of the dip behind the withers (which is the description used in breed surveys):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The first photo shows a dip behind the withers, the second photo shows a dip in the withers and a very sloped and weak hind quarters. If that's a good top line I am sad to see the direction top lines are taking.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think this is a decent representation(18 mos)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I think this is a decent representation(18 mos)


This dog has a flat withers, it should be slightly higher than the back and slope into the back.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It depends on the positioning, you can see that his rear legs were not stacked in the first shot, and in the following(all natural stack so not perfect) there is a difference?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> The first photo shows a dip behind the withers, the second photo shows a dip in the withers and a very sloped and weak hind quarters. If that's a good top line I am sad to see the direction top lines are taking.


I'll admit that I have never heard of "dip in the withers" before so I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that there was no such thing and that a "dip behind the withers" was what was meant.

As far as the 2nd dog shown, a German koermeister disagrees with you:

_Körbericht: Groß, mittelkräftig, kräftiger Kopf. Guter Widerrist, gerader Rücken, gute Länge und Lage der Kruppe. Gute Winkelung der Vor-, sehr gute Winkelung der Hinterhand, ausgeglichene Brustverhältnisse, normale Front. Hinten gerade, vorne zehenweit tretend, gute Gänge. Wesen sicher, TSB ausgeprägt; läßt ab._

The relevant part being "Good withers, straight back, good length and position of croup."

I respectfully suggest that the koermeister is more knowledgeable.

For the curious, I just randomly looked around to find this dog--he is a BSP competitor: Bacchus von der Donnerbrücke - working-dog.eu


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

This is in interesting thread. So, here is Kane. What do you think about his withers? Would he be considered roach?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

bunchoberrys said:


> This is in interesting thread. So, here is Kane. What do you think about his withers? Would he be considered roach?


It's really best to view this from an angle that is nearly level with the dog's back--too much guesstimation otherwise. I think he has nice shoulders and good withers, though, from what I can see.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

A complete side profile is best, if you want a fair critique.
Make sure to position the "eye" of the camera...directly in the middle of the dog.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

[/IMG]This is just a shot of Ty at 2, I think he has a strong topline


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)




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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

another one taken while herding


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Nice looking dog, Trudy!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Strauss









Mirada


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

cassadee7 said:


> Nice looking dog, Trudy!


agreed


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

The more I read the more confused I am. Is this referring to the crouching stance common with GSD's or something else. My dog has a more upright hind quarter. We were at the dog park and there was a shepherd there that was very crouched and had a hump back. I did not like that. Should my dog be more like that? I do not show or breed so he is perfect and healthy to me but I do wonder how he would rate to someone who knows what they are looking for.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I should rephrase a little. This was not a bad dog...just totally different than mine. I actually know this was a pretty high pedigreed dog. Both parents have earned a variety of titles and certifications hips/elbow etc. She had very low hind quarters with an arched back. From pictures I have noticed that the lower the hind quarters the more arch I see in dogs top line. Saying humped sounded bad. I think the back should have been a little straighter but it was a young dog...under a year. I am sure my dog is too upright and the two together just looked very different. I am just more curious about my dogs form.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

There are different styles/types of German Shepherds, the Amer/Can showlines, German Showlines, Working lines, again divided by territory they came from, and the puppy mill/Back Yard Breeder type. When researching to get a new dog we suggest you see what type you like as each are different in looks, temperment, drives to do things, etc. BUT since you already have your dog, don't worry what type it is, do as much training as you can, socialize a lot and enjoy it. Some people start looking after they get one and decide the one they have isn't as good as someone else's and their dissatisfaction causes them to loose interest in their pet. 

This is the best dog for you NOW, no matter which line it is, and the other dog is the best to its owner. If/when you plan on getting another, without giving up on this one, then research and put in your mind what you want then. Lots of people will tell you their style is best, but I will say for sure MINE IS BEST!!!! Yes he is best for me, he may not be everyone's best but is mine and my satisfaction is all that counts. I will do everything with him, take him everywhere, adn if he doesn't win as many ribbons/titles/fame as someone elses, its only because they don't know him. 

Love your dog, share pics and stories, spend time seeing what you like and eventually you may wish something different, or not, and never knock someone else's dog, they love it too.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I know lots of dogs conditioned with Ball chasing and sprinting for the ball as a primary form of exercise and they do not have a dip in the withers. I'm not talking a small amount either. almost every person I know with German Shepherds uses Ball chasing as a huge part of their exercise. I really don't think exercising with a ball is what causes a dip behind the withers. I firmly believe it is the proportions, skeletal structure, and the standing position of the dog that can improve or break a topline.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I defiantly did not mean to knock another dog. I was just trying to explain the difference between the two dogs and did a poor job in my description. I realized after I posted it came off sounding harsh and I tried to edit it but it would not let me which is why I posted the amendment to my earlier post. She was a beautiful dog and as I said, I am familiar with the breeder and they are top notch. Dogs are screened, titled etc. Just much different body type than mine. My next GSD may come from themJ, which is one reason I am learning the differences. Knowing my dog is not a show dog does not cause me to loose interest in any way. I looked at GSD’s for 2 years before getting one. I started out with plans of getting a working line GSD and got a little nervous that I may not be prepared for such a high drive dog. We were going from an elderly basset hound so the transition was going to be a big one. As our first puppy and first GSD, temperament was my top priority so that is how I found my Sieger. We visited the sire and dam. They were very kid-friendly and just wanted to play and hang out with my kids. Even though they had never met before that day. The male greeted my son at the gate and ran to his toy to play fetch on our first visit. I know that good temperament should be in all lines…but I did not want so much drive that we were out of our league either. Now with more confident I know my next GSD will come from a strong working line, in the mean time I am just figuring out where my guy falls. His sire actually comes form a working line with multiply generations of hip certification and some schutzund titles but the dam is just a nice AKC registered dog…nothing special. He is still a very handsome dog even with his flawsJ.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I didn't think you were knocking another dog, I just worry some people do look less at their dogs after the criticism and I didn't want that to happen with yours. Glad you still love him. And yep gotta have temperment we can all live with

my dog is pictured on the previous page, Ty and I own the full younger sister, they are Can show lines yet are easy to live with, great with kids, solid tempered and not over done, my mind, and I would get another in a heart beat, exactly what I like, adn yes we do stuff, like herding, tracking, obedience and both are show pointed, with Gemma the girl a better example for show


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