# Tough Situation



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Simply put, it looks like I'm going to have to rehome APOLLO(almost 4 year old GSD)It is breaking my heart and I have not stopped crying. He has now gone after and started a fight or attacked almost every dog in the house. keep in mind that almost every Attack resulted in me being injured--all dogs were fine. I don't know how many more injuries my hands can take. I was ok with crating and rotating him and Midnite(older male gsd) and Batman(grethound/husky mix) but now I am out of room for rotation. About 3 weeks ago we were sleeping and out of the blue he went for my older golden. I have no clue why, all I know was I was half asleep and furniture was flying. He had him by his neck and was shaking him. I did not get injured that time and not even a scratch on the golden which I can't understand with the grip he had. He has since not been allowed near the golden(still able to manage the crate and rotate fairly)Yesterday he nailed Robyn(female GSD). They are best buds and I never saw that coming. They were playing, she plays rough and I seen his face change. Robyn can handle her own but not this time. APOLLO is not big, 70 pounds at the most, but his whole body becomes super tight and every muscle tightens up. He flipped her, she yelped and he once again went for her neck. I couldn't get him to let go. When I did I lost him and he went at her again--3 times. The last time she was trying to fight back but my hand was there and that was what was getting bit. I told her no bite and she released. I finally freed her. My hand is pretty messed up. About 8 puncture wounds and swollen. I am on antibiotics. Once again, not a mark on Robyn. I'm not sure how that is even possible the way he had her. So he is pretty much in the crate at all times and goes out only when no dogs are anywhere near him. I called the local GSD club but haven't heard back. He can not be around other dogs and I would say no cats either(just in case) he is the perfect dog on his own. He has to go somewhere with someone who understands this and doesnt think they can bring him around dogs. I'm thinking this is not going to be easy. It's just heartbreaking, but it's to the point I have to protect the other dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sorry to hear about this, sending healing thoughts.

As somebody that owns multiple dogs, intact, both sexes, and much larger than 70#s, let me give you some helpful hints.

STOP the rough play, immediately, and never again. Rough play serves only two purposes, 1) teach the dog that the rough player is playing with to be one itself, and 2) it serves to escalate to a fight between the dogs at some point in time.

More importantly, you need to learn to break up a dog fight especially when you are alone. Your hands should NEVER be near a dog's mouth, head or neck if it is involved in or you think things might escalate to a dog fight. 

Whether you rehome Apollo or crate / rotate, here is your Bible on dog care from here on out: Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I got nothin'. 
I know how much you love your dogs, and I am sorry you are in this position.
Would it be possible to build a secure run for him in your yard? And give him a couple hours a day when the others are secured to spend with you? Is it possible there is a health issue, or injury?
I am really just grasping at straws here for you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> I got nothin'.
> I know how much you love your dogs, and I am sorry you are in this position.
> Would it be possible to build a secure run for him in your yard? And give him a couple hours a day when the others are secured to spend with you? Is it possible there is a health issue, or injury?
> I am really just grasping at straws here for you.


I do have a run and that is where he has been going. I have no problem letting him in the yard as long as every dog is out of his path, but that won't be until I heal. I no longer trust him. I thought medical, but I honestly doubt that. He hates the vet, so that would be a stressful adventure on its own. I won't bring him to the shelter or let just anyone have him. He is very attached to me, so this is going to be hard on both of us. He is my car ride buddy, goes with me all the time to run small errands. At night he falls asleep on top of me, then moves when I doze off, but he is always by my side. I love him so much.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I really think you would have no problem crate and rotating him. It is not so difficult.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I really think you would have no problem crate and rotating him. It is not so difficult.


I have no more areas to hold dogs. I already have two in the bathroom and two in the laundry room. There are no more closed off rooms. That leaves me with the two girls. I can put them outside but that leaves only the run as an option. I don't trust that he can't escape that, not yet anyway. So his life would be crate, run to pee and back in the crate. That wouldn't be fair to him.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Curious to how his eyes looked after the incidents? Dilated at all?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I have no more areas to hold dogs. I already have two in the bathroom and two in the laundry room. There are no more closed off rooms. That leaves me with the two girls. I can put them outside but that leaves only the run as an option. I don't trust that he can't escape that, not yet anyway. So his life would be crate, run to pee and back in the crate. That wouldn't be fair to him.


Can you make the run six sided?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Curious to how his eyes looked after the incidents? Dilated at all?


I did not. I was very light headed. I'm not great at looking at blood, especially my own. 


The thing I don't get and I surely am thankful for is that he didn't do any damage to this dogs as hard as he had them? How does that happen?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can you make the run six sided?


The run is attached to the house, so it's 2 sided. It's 10x20. It's pretty solid but he is an escape artist. He paces it looking for a way out. There is a lick on the gate so he can't open that. The crate has to have locks on it all the way around, because he has pulled the wire up in the past and punctured his chest.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I did not. I was very light headed. I'm not great at looking at blood, especially my own.
> 
> 
> The thing I don't get and I surely am thankful for is that he didn't do any damage to this dogs as hard as he had them? How does that happen?


They say if you could shave the dogs down, you would see the bruising.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I could get some recreational bones about three times a week. That would keep him busy and let him enjoy some fresh air. I just don't want to over due it with bone. 1/2 the run is shade, there is a water bucket out there and some toys. 

Right across from that run is the chicken/duck run. The dogs don't have access to them and I have to make sure he can't get to them. He is neutral with them, he don't bark at them. He checks them out and goes on his way. I used him the first couple weeks they were out there to make sure nothing was coming in the uard(raccoons/possums) Him being in that run can serve a purpose. I could technically leave him out there at night and sleep on the couch to make sure I can here him. The problem would be, he wants to be with me and I don't think he will settle down. If the Mosquitos were not so bad I would camp out with him, that he would like.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> They say if you could shave the dogs down, you would see the bruising.


I looked at her the best I could. I didn't want to get fur in my wounds and I couldn't put gloves on due to swelling. I am going to have my son check her out better tomorrow, but she is not showing any signs of being stiff or in pain. She had a small amt of blood on the end of her fur, but I concluded that it was my blood.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

If he has a run to be in and he can spend cuddle time with you, I think you can make this work. Your others are all ok together?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> If he has a run to be in and he can spend cuddle time with you, I think you can make this work. Your others are all ok together?


This is how it goes..I have to keep notes..lol

Misty, Tannor, Robyn and Midnite are good together. These four are a constant.

Misty, Tannor, Brennan, Batman and Robyn are good together(batman and Robyn can be iffy, but since Batman has calmed down they are ok-enough where they will ignore each other)

It used to be Misty, Tannor, Robyn and APOLLO--so I would rotate Midnite and APOLLO in this group. 

Brennan and Batman are always together, but can be thrown into certain groups. They are still very active and their movement drives Midnite nuts. 

Right now Brennan and Batman are in the laundry room. Batman in an escape proof crate. I'm redoing that to get him out of the crate. I'm putting up a secure door they can see out of but not escape(batman is another escape artist) and I have to Batman proof that room. He still gets into stuff-but not as bamd as he used to be. The run is used by them the most. They get excited when they see the chickens/ducks but they do ok out there and can stay out there for longer periods. They are rotated into the bigger yard a few times a week to play ball or just sit out there with me. Any dog that is out and about can interact with Brennan through the gate. So even though he might not be in a group, they have access to each other without issue.

My main concern is Misty. She is almost 14. I do not need APOLLO to pull anything stupid with her. That worries me. She doesn't move around as fast as she used to, so getting her out of the house to get APOLLO out can be a long process. I have to make sure she is protected at all times. She can get crabby in her old she and I'm pretty sure APOLLO can not tell the difference like let's say my golden Tannor. 

So there is that....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So a typical run outside like when I come home for lunch...

Used to be
Misty, Tannor, Robyn, Midnite out in the big yard. Midnite comes in, goes in the bathroom, APOLLO comes out of the crate and goes outside with the three dogs. Then I get Batmsn and Brennan into the fun. They come in, then APOLLO goes back in crate. Midnite out of bathroom

APOLLO was in crate while I was at work, then at night Midnite was in crate and APOLLO was out.

Now it goes like this...

Misty Tannor tobyn Midnite out in yard. APOLLO to the run. Apollo comes in and goes in bathroom. Batman and Brennan in run. Batman and Brennan back in. APOLLO back in crate. The other 4 in.


I'm tired just writing this lol... It's a lot of running to make it work, even more now.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Don't forget when you rotate them that you can always put the agitator on a leash to move him through the house when Misty is not being cooperative.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Don't forget when you rotate them that you can always put the agitator on a leash to move him through the house when Misty is not being cooperative.


That would happen after I heal because that would be APOLLO and he doesn't have a collar on in the crate, so I would have to put collar on and take it off. Right now I can't use my hand at all. It is an option. I could also take him for a quick walk while the others are in the yard.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So it's doable, just tiring. I feel for you, truly and I think most would understand if you opted for rehoming. I just know how much you love your dogs, so I am trying to help you bounce ideas around. 
Did you say you have a son who lives away from home?


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Would putting a muzzle on him something you'd consider? It would help with your sense of control of the situation when having to move Apollo around.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK y'all, got me so frustrated here that I gave up and logged in after a 2 year rebellion about the convoluted password junk.... Still think that sucks (who cares if someone else logs in via my account on this site?)


OK back to why I am posting...


No one else has said this but -- kick the dog's sorry butt the heck off your bed! He has not earned that privilege, he's being a donkey rather than a dog. Dump him on big time NILIF and a week's shunning starting the heck now. This is what you do with a dog not following the rules. They get "detention" if not flat out "jail time." 



Did no one else catch that he's sharing the bed with the human in charge? Phoey phoey phoey. Put the violins away, quit worrying so much about crate and rotate (yes do that but primarily and as part of that - he has lost the bed privileges which, darn it, he never earned in the first place.) His sorry butt needs to be busted. It can be busted without getting physical.


My youngster lost her bed privilege when she began being a butt head. She forgot her rank here and needed a reminder. When they both (excellent tracking dogs) blew off tracking at the same trial, they were ignored for some 24 - 36 hours. (We have not gone tracking again BUT their obedience is up there.)


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@middleofnowhere yup totally missed that! Good call. 
And I am the one who was saying just last week that when I kept multiple dogs in the house I maintained peace by refusing to let them put one toe out of line. Lol.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> That would happen after I heal because that would be APOLLO and he doesn't have a collar on in the crate, so I would have to put collar on and take it off. Right now I can't use my hand at all. It is an option. I could also take him for a quick walk while the others are in the yard.


Try a slip lead.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I wish I had the experience to help you out. I'm sorry you are in this position. My heart goes out to you tears and all. I hope you can find a good home for him. My heart breaks for you. I get the feeling you have exhausted yourself. I truly wish I could place him and let your heart be lifted.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> OK y'all, got me so frustrated here that I gave up and logged in after a 2 year rebellion about the convoluted password junk.... Still think that sucks (who cares if someone else logs in via my account on this site?)
> 
> 
> OK back to why I am posting...
> ...



It's not the bed but it's the couch. I get it, same concept. Because he is in the crate, he no longer has those privileges. He has lost yard privleges too. I have been only letting him out of the crate to go outside, no special treatment or time with me. I feel he is the opposite, meaning instead of learning a lesson, he is not getting it or getting more frustrated. The bottom line is that it's not predictable and I can not take any more chances. It's not like these fights happen daily, we are talking 1-2 times a year, except for these two back to back within the month. I really wish I could figure out the golden one.

APOLLO has always had an issue with resource guarding and it's always been me. He is fine with food, toys, etc. It's me. I've been there and done that with everything you have said. He is amount 90% better. He has always had more of an edge about him compared to the other two GSDs. He has more guarding instincts period. 

I have no problem keeping him, but it's not a great life for him. I have to consider that for him too.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dunkirk said:


> Would putting a muzzle on him something you'd consider? It would help with your sense of control of the situation when having to move Apollo around.


I do have a basket muzzle for him and I have used it in the past. He tries getting it off and I have to make sure it's on good


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Robyn can hold a grudge and remembers everything. What are the chances at some point down the line she would try to get even with him? I'm concerned that she would indeed try this.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am not going to be popular here.....

first - a thorough vet exam, bloodwork etc....for any medical problem that could possibly be the cause of the behavior.

The dog is a liability that should not be passed onto anyone else. PERIOD. Not to a rescue and certainly not to a shelter. IF - and that is only going to be your decision and your alone - if this dog is dangerous to you and the others, the only fair thing to him is a wonderful day followed by a vet visit....rehoming should never be an option with an aggressive dog - it is cowardly and a cop out....the dog is your responsibility and loves you.....last resort of course...but realize you cannot ethically ask someone else to put themselves and others in their household in danger.

Wire crates are only as good as the dog is respectful of them...they are EASY for a determined dog to destroy. While expensive...a good crate, a metal aluminum or stainless crate is the only safe crate. Airline crates can be destroyed, doors popped off...

Crate and rotate can work, but you have to be the leader, you have to have everyone's respect, you have to be vigilant and you have to be able to predict from body language and step in and stop behaviors at any thought of a fight from any dog. It is not fair to the other dogs in the house to deal with the unpredictability of Apollo's behavior. 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you are past the point in the number of dogs you have to maintain clear lines of communication and behaviors. Some people suggest neutering, but behavior and dynamics are too fixed IMO at this point to have this dog's attitude truly change.

I am sorry that this is happening, but I believe there are too many bleeding hearts out there and dogs are heartbreaking and dangerous when passed on

Lee


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm sorry the situation has escalated with him. I just can't imagine the worry, and thought process you deal with every day to maintain your crew. Adding this additional stress is way beyond me. I think I remember you having a hand injury before, just take care and make sure you don't let your health slip. I don't know what to advise you but to make him a outside kennel dog. Go out alone in the yard in the am and the pm with him alone, but I can see how this would amp him up. Seeing the other dogs and being separated. Take care.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I am 100% in agreement with Lee. If this were a new member posting, there would be more responses exactly like this.

I'm truly sorry you and Apollo are going thru this but you can not pass him on. He is a dog that needs to be managed. Maybe in the right hands, with absolute obedience, he may be ok. MAY. But more than likely, you will rehome him and he will end up in a very bad situation because he can't be handled.

If he were my dog, I would make a vet visit and rule out health issues. I would get a trainer that would make it perfectly clear that he WILL respect another dog's right to breathe.

I would have a crate that I could crate and rotate the dogs. We did this for years and still do with one we have here.

Failing that. I would give him one last excellent day.

All the options are hard. Doing the right thing isn't easy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I am not going to be popular here.....
> 
> first - a thorough vet exam, bloodwork etc....for any medical problem that could possibly be the cause of the behavior.
> 
> ...


I would not consider him a liability. He simply needs to be the only dog in the home. There would be zero issues. Putting a dog down because he doesn't get along with other dogs a couple times a year is not an option. If he was an aggressive dog, I would agree, but he is isn't. He does pick and choose his circle but he lives with his whole heart.

He is neutered. I will tell you that he is the only dog I have ever waited until he was older to neuter and I think that was a mistake. He did mellow out when he was neutered but I can't help but to think if things would be different if I had him neutered 6 months earlier. I can't even imagine what he would be like not neutered. 

I do agree with an exam and bloodwork, to rule that out.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I am 100% in agreement with Lee. If this were a new member posting, there would be more responses exactly like this.
> 
> I'm truly sorry you and Apollo are going thru this but you can not pass him on. He is a dog that needs to be managed. Maybe in the right hands, with absolute obedience, he may be ok. MAY. But more than likely, you will rehome him and he will end up in a very bad situation because he can't be handled.
> 
> ...


Completely agree on the management and that is what makes it hard. The first place I called was the german shepherd club because I need someone that knows the breed and isn't goibv to be stupid about it. My neighbor adores him and APOLLO loves him, perfect match, except the neighbor always thinks APOLLO should be off leash and able to run. NO NO NO. That is why I would never consider my neighbor. 

I am going to work on all these things once I heal.

You guys have been very helpful. I know it's not easy with multiple dogs. I know that fights can happen. I also know I am alone and it's not easy to break up a fight, so the best way to deal with it, is to make sure it doesn't happen to begin with.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Llombardo got a bite because of her mistake, not his, and regrets it. That is not a reason to euthanize. Apollo is a dog who would thrive as a single dog in a home. I can see sending him to the right house with the agreement of taking him back if it doesn’t work out. 

Slip leads - if you don’t have enough control use two, held apart. I never thought of it but my dog had an emergency and the specialty vet we used gave us two slip leads to walk him back to the car when we took home home and they were incredible. I would use them again. 

Llombardo, being realistic, I think you have too many dogs that are not meshing into a pack. My friend who had 13 GSDs at one time, all house dogs, had to crate and rotate. She has a husband and an adult child to help her but it was too many, and as her older dogs passed, she did not replace them. Now she has three and it’s managable. You are awesome to take them all in, but your safety and your dogs’ quality of life are all important. 

6 months wait to neuter did not cause this. He would have ended up with the same behavior whether he was neutered earlier or not.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

llombardo said:


> I would not consider him a liability. He simply needs to be the only dog in the home. There would be zero issues. Putting a dog down because he doesn't get along with other dogs a couple times a year is not an option. If he was an aggressive dog, I would agree, but he is isn't. He does pick and choose his circle but he lives with his whole heart.
> 
> He is neutered. I will tell you that he is the only dog I have ever waited until he was older to neuter and I think that was a mistake. He did mellow out when he was neutered but I can't help but to think if things would be different if I had him neutered 6 months earlier. I can't even imagine what he would be like not neutered.
> 
> I do agree with an exam and bloodwork, to rule that out.


IMO, a dog that is unpredictably aggressive to other dogs in the home is definitely a risk. There are so many dogs nowadays that are aggressive to either children or other dogs. And the owners decide not to handle it and regime them. Now this can go okay if you find the right home. But there are honestly a lot less people qualified for dogs like this than there are homes. Along with that if you have a dog that is unpredictable aggressive it happens like this. "Oh he's doing just fine and perfect. The other ownermust have been exaggerating or didn't know what they were talking about." And then you have a problem. 

I had a dog that was other aggressive after being attacked by another dog. She was terrified all the time and had a poor quality of life. She couldn't be inside because she would be fine with our other dog and then attack him apparently triggered. I was younger still a child but my dad made me make the decision of what to do with her. I knew she had a poor quality of life and I could not trust her and was very wary about rehoming her. So we gave her a great day and that was that. 

I'd either continue managing or put down unless you can find a home you have 100% no doubts about. He could do fine in another home, or he could do something awful and have to get put down by them or get given away again. There was a story the other day about a dog getting degloved because the owner gave away a dog aggressive dog because they didn't want the responsibility. 

I'm sorry if this comes across harsh. I know this doesn't sound nice. But my decision was made after my sister got bit breaking up a fight while nobody was home because she thought she could handle the dogs together. Yours sounds familiar but with a lot more dogs and a lot worse bite.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If the neighbor adores him, why not work with him on a good solution. Maybe he is able to train off leash reliability, it's certainly possible. I could see many ways that could be a wonderful solution. I'd pursue that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> Llombardo, being realistic, I think you have too many dogs that are not meshing into a pack. My friend who had 13 GSDs at one time, all house dogs, had to crate and rotate. She has a husband and an adult child to help her but it was too many, and as her older dogs passed, she did not replace them. Now she has three and it’s managable. You are awesome to take them all in, but your safety and your dogs’ quality of life are all important.


I agree. I counted 7 dogs, is that right? That's a lot to manage when they don't all get along and it would be remarkable to have that many dogs that DO all get along perfectly. It's one thing to have to crate and rotate if you've got 2 or 3 dogs, especially if you've got several responsible adults in the house to help keep them separate. 

This is a major reason I will not have more than 2 dogs at a time. We've been very fortunate that ours have always gotten along great and no way am I risking that by adding another dog (or 2 or 3...) to the mix. The minor exception to our rule is that we did bring home puppy Cava before Halo was gone, but we knew her time was very short and they only ended up overlapping by about a month. The breeder offered to hold onto her until we were ready, which I gratefully accepted. Cava came home at about 4-1/2 months old and by then we figured we could manage an elderly dog (Keefer - nearly 13), an ill dog with limited mobility (Halo - DM), and a puppy for a short while, and it was fine. Much better than we expected, actually. But we knew that it was going to a be very short term situation and we'd make it work no matter what we needed to do.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Any bite that is the result of breaking up a fight doesn't count as against the dog in my book. Nearly any dog will sink teeth into a person who sticks their hand in the middle of a fight -- even really good dogs. If that's his only human bite, I wouldn't be terribly worried.


He definitely needs to be disclosed as dog aggressive -- an only dog. There are homes that don't do dog parks, have very secure yards, etc. where such dogs do fine. However, walking such dogs in a basket muzzle can be pretty important, and not all homes are on board with that. It's not easy to find good homes for dog aggressive dogs -- even in shelters/rescue, I see them wait months and months for the right home. Rehoming a dog with dog issues takes a lot of time and care.

It's good that he's already neutered. The reason to rehome them already neutered isn't that it may or may not improve behavior (sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't) -- it's so that you improve the odds of rehoming to the right kind of pet home. You eliminate the chance of attracting sketchy BYB homes that pose as "wonderful families". Where I am, anyone advertising an intact purebred dog (of nearly any breed) will attract all the wrong kinds of novice owners with dreams of breeding for profit. Neutering simply eliminates attracting some of those wanting the dog for the wrong reasons, and ensures Apollo won't be bred. It doesn't remove all the rehoming variables, but it does remove one.

Individuals can now advertise on AdoptAPet.com using their "Rehome" feature -- they generate an adoption contract (with the option of requiring the dog to come back if the placement doesn't work). The kicker is that the adoption fee goes to a rescue/shelter of your choice as a donation, so there's no "selling" of dogs. It does get you free access to a very large population of people looking for pets though. https://rehome.adoptapet.com/


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Until Sabi died I would have sworn that Bud was great with other dogs. When she was gone the first thing that he did was try and kill Shadow. I did crate and rotate for the rest of his life. Even looking sideways at Shadow got him a correction. But he also decided that he was going after any dog he saw. He was 11 when she died, I had no previous history of issues with other dogs. 
If you are strong enough I would keep a leash on him moving him around and if he even passes a dirty look he gets a correction, and a good one, for it. I would do obedience drills until you are both ready to scream. If it makes you feel better then muzzle him. But the same goes for all the others, no retaliation, no bullying. 
When I had bunches of dogs I maintained rigid control and even a slightly raised voice would send them all running for their kennels, regardless of what nonsense they were into. Of course I also had about 15 dog crates in my house! Who needs furniture.
I wouldn't say he's a liability but you do need to step up your management. Sorry, but the fact that you have gotten away with this for this long is amazing. These dogs belong to you, not the other way around. It's past time they learned this.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

A dog that will attack others for no appearent reason is high risk and should not be rehomed imop. Multiple dog homes might experience some fights along the way, resource guarding and other explainable behavoirs can be pointed to and managed, but when fights occur for seemingly no reason then rehoming is probably not a good idea. I would have him evaluated by your vet for any possible medical condition and by someone qualified to evaluate his behavior before moving forward.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

4 kennels with dividers so they can't see each other, at least 1 crate and never more then 2 loose at a time, none with Apollo. They meshed into a pack. I'd do everything I could to reverse that and I think the only way to is to change the environment between all of them. Once you have more then 2 dogs I think you're kidding yourself if you think there aren't things going on you missed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You've posted on issues with Apollo before. Your first post here says he's attacked almost every dog in the household, with injuries to you each time. That's up to 7 attacks. 8 puncture wounds? I've broken up fights here and never have they bitten me like that. My husband had one bite once.

You can't take him to the vet without him "lunging" at the vet and being muzzled. He's "protective" when anyone approaches and when he was young, he was growling at people because he's "protective".

You either have to much dog on your hands or you have one that is weak nerved and resource guarding. I think it's way past time to separate this pack, crate and rotate and get a good trainer in there to fully evaluate this dog so you have a realistic view of what he is.

Again...I am 100% against rehoming this dog given all your posts about him. Any one of these issues alone would not be a big deal. But when it's all put together it's a whole different picture.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've known quite a few dogs who might not get along in their own pack, but are not dog aggressive. It's kind like two sisters who are horrible to each other in their house, but quite normal with people and friends outside of the family. 

I do not know if this is the case here. 

The odd part is Apollo attacking a female. This is pretty weird. This tells me most likely Apollo is living in a situation where he is dealing with a high level of daily stress. Maybe when he attacked the female, another male was giving him the stink-eye, or had given him the stink-eye, or was barking, or made a sudden noise, and Apollo just exploded at whoever happened to be closest, regardless of gender. At 70 lbs, if the OP could fairly easily get him off "attacking" another dog, it tells me he may not have been so much attacking as releasing pent up stress in the only way he can. 

This is redirection, and pretty common in a dog who is stressed, over aroused, and frustrated. 

I'm not convinced Apollo is a liability, but I am pretty convinced he is stressed and feels constantly threatened by other dogs in the home, and is relieving that stress with an "attack". It won't stop. 

I haven't met Apollo, so I can't judge whether he is dog aggressive or just super uncomfortable living in an environment where he feels his life is under threat daily. If it is the latter, then in a one-dog household, he may thrive. I'd have him evaluated by someone who knows their stuff, for starters. In a location far away from the other dogs in the pack.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Muskeg said:


> At 70 lbs, if the OP could fairly easily get him off "attacking" another dog,
> 
> T.


I don't agree with this. At 45 lbs, our Boxer is almost impossible to get off another dog. She won't release and is relentless at going back at the dog. Trying to get her off a dog is NOT the way to get the fight to stop. Dropping sheets, getting in between and taking the other dog, anything but trying to "get her off" would work. Nothing short of drop kicking her would physically get her off another dog once she's latched on.


Just my thoughts on this injury, unrelated to Muskeg's post, 8 punctures in a hand sounds like the dog redirected. That's at least 2 bites on that hand.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jax- I'm not sure we disagree? I may have been unclear, what I was trying to say was if the OP was able to get a 70 lb dog to stop attacking another dog, by physically pulling him away, it doesn't sound like a super serious attack. Scary, for sure. But it (to me) sounds like Apollo redirected stress on the dog through an attack, then redirected again on the OP when the hand got in the way. 

If it was a actual, all-out attack, the only way to get a dog to stop and release would be break stick, choke-off, back/tie, baseball bat (etc). Or in a highly trained, clear headed dog, a call off.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Let me clarify a few things here..

Robyn is the one that had my wrist on the second fight when I lost control of him after the first original Attack. When I told her no bite, she released and I can tell you she was feeling really guilty afterwards. By no means did she redirect or bite me on purpose. 

The one wound I got on my finger was APOLLO as I was trying to get him to release her. I got him to let go and my hand was there when he tried again.

At no time did either dog bite me on purpose or redirect. I apologize if it came across as that.

I know why this fight started. Robyn is rougher when she plays and very vocal. I think he just had enough. Completely my fault and I should have known better to let them play like that.no other dogs were outside at that time, so it was definitely an issue between them two.


As for fights, I said almost all the dogs. He has never fought with Misty or Brennan. I have to keep it that way.

Once he has fought with a dog I have completely seperated him from that dog. The first fight was with Batman. Batmans movement for some reason drives all the GSDs nuts. It took a long time for Robyn to be able to ignore him, the boys just can't. On that fight my leg was injured because I put my leg in front of him to stop APOLLO from getting Batman. Apollo couldn't stop in time and immediately released once he realized it was me. He was remorseful on that one. Batman also caused a fight between Robyn and Misty and Robyn and Midnite. Once he was removed from the group, everything was good.

Second fight was with Midnite and I know why that one hapodned. Robyn was healing from her hip surgery and Midnite ran past her and a little to close. She kind of barked and growled as a warning and APOLLO came out of nowhere and went for Midnite. That turned into al 3 GSDs. Robyn and APOLLO teamed up. I jammed my thumb on that one trying to keep Robyn out of the fight due to her hip. Midnite ended that fight by standing on APOLLO with his two front paws. 

Third fight was with Tannor a couple weeks ago. Not sure on this one at all. It was definitely weird and not explainable. No injuries

Forth fight was with Robyn.

I did hurt my hand one other time but that had nothing to do with APOLLO. So in 4 years, 4 fights. I don't consider that incredibly bad with 7 dogs. All injuries were due to my stupidity. Common sense tells you what to do but in that moment common sense goes out the window. Some people shake it off and put the dogs back together after a while. I will not due that because I'm trying to avoid fights and most likely causing more trouble. APOLLO is not aggressive toward any dogs while he is in the crate. They can walk past and up to the crate without issue. 

I'm getting older here and it's not easy breaking up fights. Do I want to see APOLLO go? Nope. The only way he would go anywhere is if I was 100% sure it was a good got for all involved. 

I want to stress that none of my injuries were due to aggression or redirection, just my own stupidity. 

I have never liked the idea of an outside dog but I may consider it with him when weather permits. I certainly won't keep him out there in extremely hot or cold weather. He was in the run this morning and did not want to come in, which was a good sign--he is getting used to that rather quickly. He wasn't pacing, he picked up a ball and started throwing it up in the air. I'm pretty sure it's secure but I want to really look at it good when I heal. I can get him a dog house and even put a fan in it to be more comfortable. 

This is about the quality of life I can give him. Could I attempt to out him back in the group, probably if I wasn't so worried about fights which I'm sure can be sensed by all. I may do so once I can put the muzzle on correctly.

Please don't think he is a bad dog. He really isn't. He is very manageable. It's me that has to learn how to do so. So the first thing will be a medical exam and blood work. The only reason I am doing that is because the argument with Tannor makes no sense. The time, the way, the why are just not there. I don't brludve it was a seizure or anything but I was asleep. Next step will be back to training. I do not think going for training would be the way to go, I will have to find someone to come to us. I can start looking now, but I don't think it's going to be easy, but then again life is not always easy. He is really worth it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Jax- I'm not sure we disagree? I may have been unclear, what I was trying to say was if the OP was able to get a 70 lb dog to stop attacking another dog, by physically pulling him away, it doesn't sound like a super serious attack. Scary, for sure. But it (to me) sounds like Apollo redirected stress on the dog through an attack, then redirected again on the OP when the hand got in the way.
> 
> If it was a actual, all-out attack, the only way to get a dog to stop and release would be break stick, choke-off, back/tie, baseball bat (etc). Or in a highly trained, clear headed dog, a call off.



The thing is that pulling him away wasn't an option because he had her by the neck. I'm not even sure the wheelbarrow action would have worked. Was it loud? Yes. She actually was yelping. Yet there was no injuries? Unexplainable. My son checked her today and she is fine, nothing. 

So as focused as he was and as hard as he had her I don't believe I saw what he is completely capable of and I'm not looking to find out either. All 70 pounds of him becomes solid muscle. He becomes super stiff and you can feel that muscle. He is the only dog I have that this happens. He also is the only dog that I can see his face change and know he is not happy. It did not help that he would not release. It is possible she had no injuries because I had his mouth and was trying to pry it open(stupid I know) a break stick might be beneficial to have here.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a dog who will go after another dog under certain circumstances--resource guarding a toy being one--I've broken up many scuffles, sometimes in totally wrong ways and never a mark on me. So there are dogs who can be grabbed in the heat of the moment and not bite you no matter how badly you handle it.

I have mixed feelings about trying to rehome a dog like this. It seems simple but then unfortunately having had up close knowledge of what "average" pet people are like, how seriously they take stuff and how strictly they (don't) manage, then it gets scary.

AND it becomes like a game of telephone, because you just can't be sure person #1 will relay the proper info to dog sitters, kennel employees, family, or another home if THEY rehome the dog or leave it with someone else while they are away.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Also...you said "immediately released once he realized it was me" but with injuries

I gotta add something here. My girl is losing her vision, and it seems her peripheral is the worst. A big horse fly was buzzing her ear to bite her and I reached my hand down slow, kind of snuck my hand toward her from behind, hoping to kill it as soon as it landed on her. She obviously didn't realize I did that, and she whipped her head back to snap up the fly with her mouth. You know how fast they snap flies, she snapped fast and hard and STILL realized she had my hand and managed to stop her bite without leaving a mark on my skin. And she looked up at me with this sort of horrified look that she grabbed my hand. I said it's okay, you didn't see me and you didn't mean to. And it was over. Not even a tiny red mark on my pale skin which is easy to hurt. From a half blind dog with a very hard mouth.

Same exact thing happened when I called my young dog in on the trail and I pulled out a canvas tug and as I was pulling it up to present it to him so he could snatch it on the way in, my forearm was for a moment in the "tug for biting" position and my old blind dog thought my forearm was the tug. She likes to try and steal his reward toys. She went for my arm by mistake, and I watched her open mouth of teeth grab my bare forearm. Same thing-- at the last second she realized her mistake and managed to completely stop her bite and even though she did sort of put her teeth on my arm she realized what she had done and stopped it without so much as a scratch. MY life flashed before my eyes though, i tell ya.

I could be wrong. But if my old blind dog who hits as hard as she does can still manage to stop her bite at the last second and not leave a mark...seems like they CAN be capable of that if they have screwed up and gone to bite the wrong thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

When dogs fight, their stress hormones remain high for weeks. Just because you think the fight with Tanner doesn't make sense, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason. How old is Tanner?

You need to be crating and rotating these dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a dog who will go after another dog under certain circumstances--resource guarding a toy being one--I've broken up many scuffles, sometimes in totally wrong ways and never a mark on me. So there are dogs who can be grabbed in the heat of the moment and not bite you no matter how badly you handle it.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about trying to rehome a dog like this. It seems simple but then unfortunately having had up close knowledge of what "average" pet people are like, how seriously they take stuff and how strictly they (don't) manage, then it gets scary.
> 
> AND it becomes like a game of telephone, because you just can't be sure person #1 will relay the proper info to dog sitters, kennel employees, family, or another home if THEY rehome the dog or leave it with someone else while they are away.



I'm quite sure most people are not as stupid as myself and put their hands right in the dogs mouth. I should know better by now, but obviously not. I have broken up fights without injury if I keep my hands out of their mouths. 

I agree with not trusting most people. To many people think that it will be different with them and take a chance. I'm not so much into that chance taking at all. 

For my peace of mind and safety for any other dogs, I kind of think I need to make it work of I will never ever have peace. I would worry constantly about him and that alone can be more stressful then simply managing things here.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> When dogs fight, their stress hormones remain high for weeks. Just because you think the fight with Tanner doesn't make sense, doesn't mean there wasn't a reason. How old is Tanner?
> 
> You need to be crating and rotating these dogs.


Tannor will be 9. when I say it doesn't make sense it's because of the time it happened. It was in the middle of the night, everyone was sleeping. There was no movement. Tannor was actually laying down when APOLLO went for him. Tannor was literally laying there still when I got there. I don't think he knew what hit him and oddly he wasn't affected or phased. Just weird. I can not for the life of me think if any logical reason. Is it possible something like a seizure happened to Rannor and it freaked APOLLO out? That would be a stretch, Tannor is a healthy dog and I've never witnessed anything with either dog. 


There is no more crate and rotate. It's strictly the crate with APOLLO. He will have more freedom on his own once the run is looked over. I will not allow him direct access to any dogs any longer. I will consider it with a muzzle only.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Llombardo, did you seek medical attention for these severe bites or just put yourself on some random antibiotics you had in the house? This is VERY important.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm so sorry this is happening. Do you think your son would take Apollo? I've never re-homed a dog to strangers, but I did give my papillon to my mom when I was finally able to get another GSD. He's small and fragile, and I also knew we were planning to have kids, which he would not like. My mom had always wanted a papillon and it worked out really well. Plus I still see him once a week or so. Anyway, I'm sure you had already thought of that. I just wanted to say that sounds like a really difficult decision, and I hope you are able to work something out. I hope your hand heals quickly.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I stuck my hands in the mouth of a dog who was killing a goat. Tried to pry his jaws off her throat. I was not able to do it. When he went to regrip I was able to intervene and amazingly nursed an almost dead goat back to life with dozens of punctures in her windpipe and let air leak under her skin so she blew up like a big balloon and crackled when she walked. She was unconscious for the hour it took the vet to get there, I called the vet for emergency euthanasia because I was too hysterical to shoot her (too hysterical to operate a gun). And the vet said, she might live if you want to try and save her, so I basically lived in the barn tending to her and she eventually made a full recovery. But just so you understand how severely the goat was hurt---and my hands were in his mouth trying to pry him off of her. I was not hurt.
> 
> So I don't know. Maybe I was just lucky



I did something similar with the Rott that attacked my Tannor when he was like 4 months old. I held the Rotts mouth open so he couldn't clamp down. I was not injured but my poor Tannor was hurt pretty bad. 

I think what happened with Apollo was I had my hands there at the exact time he went to regrip. That is the only bite I got from APOLLO. Robyn got my wrist because the way she was I had my arm across her head trying to pull him off. I remember thinking oh boy that is going to hurt. Once I told her no bite, she released.

I think that in the cases where one animal is not fighting back it's much easier to break up without injury. In every one of those cases I have never been injured. 

When there are two biting at each other, it makes things much more difficult. 

I'm sorry you went through that with the goat. That had to be horrific.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

sebrench said:


> I'm so sorry this is happening. Do you think your son would take Apollo? I've never re-homed a dog to strangers, but I did give my papillon to my mom when I was finally able to get another GSD. He's small and fragile, and I also knew we were planning to have kids, which he would not like. My mom had always wanted a papillon and it worked out really well. Plus I still see him once a week or so. Anyway, I'm sure you had already thought of that. I just wanted to say that sounds like a really difficult decision, and I hope you are able to work something out. I hope your hand heals quickly.


My son does not like APOLLO, never has. APOLLO adores him though. Apollo would be screwed if his future was in my sons hands. We have a very small family, no options there.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Tannor will be 9. when I say it doesn't make sense it's because of the time it happened. It was in the middle of the night, everyone was sleeping. There was no movement. Tannor was actually laying down when APOLLO went for him. Tannor was literally laying there still when I got there. I don't think he knew what hit him and oddly he wasn't affected or phased. Just weird. I can not for the life of me think if any logical reason. Is it possible something like a seizure happened to Rannor and it freaked APOLLO out? That would be a stretch, Tannor is a healthy dog and I've never witnessed anything with either dog.
> 
> 
> There is no more crate and rotate. It's strictly the crate with APOLLO. He will have more freedom on his own once the run is looked over. I will not allow him direct access to any dogs any longer. I will consider it with a muzzle only.



It's more likely you missed the sign of what started it. did you see the start of the fight? Maybe Apollo was just startled by movement or something startled him from outside the house. Or Tanner moved towards you and he's resource guarding you. That isn't excusing this. I'm simply stating just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean you just missed the signs that led to it.

The boxer was attacking the other dogs randomly at one point and it took forever to figure it out. It was if we were on the floor and another dog came near us. My husband blamed Jax for the one with her. Even though the boxer had to come all the way across the house to attack. He figured it out when she attacked the senior Boxer because he was on the floor. That got her a Come to Jesus moment and she stopped doing it for that reason. A washer going off balance would send her to attack Jax. It was insane for several years and things we would never think could be a trigger WAS the trigger.

Crate and rotate IS not allowing direct access to any dogs. Crate them, let him out. Put him up, let them out. He can't just live in a crate for an extended period of time.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I am more concerned about your injuries than I am about the dog problems. Whats going on with your hands? Has a medical professional looked at them? Your hands are so disabled you cannot buckle on a muzzle.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd think about creating a routine and containment for all of them, not just segregate him and isolate him. You may end up with a bigger problem. Since you'll be keeping all of them, even if he's the single threat to the rest, I'd keep it as even and fair in his mind as possible.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a dog who will go after another dog under certain circumstances--resource guarding a toy being one--I've broken up many scuffles, sometimes in totally wrong ways and never a mark on me. So there are dogs who can be grabbed in the heat of the moment and not bite you no matter how badly you handle it.


You either have exceptional dogs, or have been exceptionally lucky! But either way, expecting that your dog is going to have that kind of control is downright dangerous! I prefer a strategically thrown glass of water, as it breaks the spell enough for the dogs to respond to commands, and doesn't put your hands or arms at risk!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd think about creating a routine and containment for all of them, not just segregate him and isolate him. You may end up with a bigger problem. Since you'll be keeping all of them, even if he's the single threat to the rest, I'd keep it as even and fair in his mind as possible.


I was sort of thinking the same thing. I think there are a number of issues here, not the least of which is that it sort of sounds like the inmates are running the asylum. 
When I kept multiple dogs I also had multiple runs/crates and pens. I had a large 20x40 run, a smaller 10x12 run, a 4x6 run in my basement, another 4x8 in my garage and every dog had their own crate plus I had built in gates between areas in the house. I ruled with an iron fist and tolerated no nonsense. For the most part the dogs were fine together but they were never given the chance to start anything. I never left them alone unattended as a group although I did have pairs that were fine. 
With 7 dogs I would be looking at a couple/few runs and all would have crates.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I am more concerned about your injuries than I am about the dog problems. Whats going on with your hands? Has a medical professional looked at them? Your hands are so disabled you cannot buckle on a muzzle.


It hurts a lot less now, but is still slightly swollen and still tender. As the swelling is going down I'm able to use the hand more, but if I hit it the wrong way I'm seeing stars. I'm almost able to make a fist without pain. I have to keep moving it do it doesn't get stiff. It was way worse yesterday. I am on antibiotics. I clean the wounds 2x a day. I actually let it air out last night and wrapped it back up this morning. My whole body is sore from lifting and holding him. Unless I see any real redness or streaking do I have to return. I Have actually added cleaning it with collodial silver and I'm also using vetericyn, for some reason that always helps me heal, even if it is for dogs. I am good, just have to heal up. 

Thank you for your concern. I know puncture wounds are bad, I am watching it carefully.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd think about creating a routine and containment for all of them, not just segregate him and isolate him. You may end up with a bigger problem. Since you'll be keeping all of them, even if he's the single threat to the rest, I'd keep it as even and fair in his mind as possible.


I also thought about this. This is why I want to make sure the run is secure so that he has a decent area to be in. He will also have access to the yard by himself eventually. He loves his ball and I can't see him never playing fetch again. Right now there are two crates and two rooms used. I do not want him in the crate non stop. That has to be frustrating. Misty and Tannor will never be crated. I'm open to rotating the rest. I have one more crate available and ond in use by a rooster. Once the rooster is situated I will have another crate available. So that is 3 wire crates and one impact crate. I do have to get more locks God ond of the wire crates because Of Midnite. I am leaning toward an orthopedic bed in the bathroom for Robyn. Her hips are t great do I want her to be comfortable. APOLLO is good about respecting boundaries do I can put up my long gate to block off Misty and Tannor and that should work fine.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> You either have exceptional dogs, or have been exceptionally lucky! But either way, expecting that your dog is going to have that kind of control is downright dangerous! I prefer a strategically thrown glass of water, as it breaks the spell enough for the dogs to respond to commands, and doesn't put your hands or arms at risk!


Chocolate milk works too! It can stop a fight before it begins! :grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> It hurts a lot less now, but is still slightly swollen and still tender. As the swelling is going down I'm able to use the hand more, but if I hit it the wrong way I'm seeing stars. I'm almost able to make a fist without pain. I have to keep moving it do it doesn't get stiff. It was way worse yesterday. I am on antibiotics. I clean the wounds 2x a day. I actually let it air out last night and wrapped it back up this morning. *My whole body is sore from lifting and holding him.* Unless I see any real redness or streaking do I have to return. I Have actually added cleaning it with collodial silver and I'm also using vetericyn, for some reason that always helps me heal, even if it is for dogs. I am good, just have to heal up.
> 
> Thank you for your concern. I know puncture wounds are bad, I am watching it carefully.


Please tell me you did not physically lift a big dog out of a serious dog fight and physically restrain him by holding him to you!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Tannor will be 9. when I say it doesn't make sense it's because of the time it happened. It was in the middle of the night, everyone was sleeping. There was no movement. Tannor was actually laying down when APOLLO went for him. Tannor was literally laying there still when I got there. I don't think he knew what hit him and oddly he wasn't affected or phased. Just weird. I can not for the life of me think if any logical reason. Is it possible something like a seizure happened to Rannor and it freaked APOLLO out? That would be a stretch, Tannor is a healthy dog and I've never witnessed anything with either dog.
> 
> 
> There is no more crate and rotate. It's strictly the crate with APOLLO. He will have more freedom on his own once the run is looked over. I will not allow him direct access to any dogs any longer. I will consider it with a muzzle only.


Please stop looking for reasons as to why this fight happened. If you knew and fixed that issue, they will only find another. The more they fight, the worse the fights will get. Fights usually happen in a multidog household. You need to learn how to safely deal with it.

You need to focus on and research appropriate six sided containment. You need to learn how to safely break up a dog fight so when it happens, usually at the worst of times, it is a no brainer and you can immediately take appropriate action. You need to have strategically placed "tools" throughout your house and yard for the next time it happens such as broom handles that can double as break sticks as well as being utilized to fend off the aggressor or using a door and jamb to stop a dog fight without putting yourself in the middle.

You have a dog pack. This can be high risk depending on how complacent you are. Stay constructive.

Also, in all fairness to Apollo, if you find that you spend more time on the couch in front of the tv or at a computer desk, place his crate nearby so that he can be near at a place you often can be found when home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Please tell me you did not physically lift a big dog out of a serious dog fight and physically restrain him by holding him to you!


Yep I did. Once I got him to release, I got him in a headlock and lifted him in the air. Completely the wrong end to lift, I know. Nothing I did in this fight was smart. No need to remind me of this. I know what my errors were and I know I have to get a plan together.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If you woke up in the middle of the night to a dog fight, I can't imagine being super smart. That is a tough scenario to deal with alone in the middle of the night. 

You did what you had to do... I don't know that I could have done any different, same scenario.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> You either have exceptional dogs, or have been exceptionally lucky! But either way, expecting that your dog is going to have that kind of control is downright dangerous! I prefer a strategically thrown glass of water, as it breaks the spell enough for the dogs to respond to commands, and doesn't put your hands or arms at risk!


There are dogs out there which can keep their wits about them in a stressful situation like a fight and not bite at anything moving. There are dogs which are the opposite as well and are frantic. No matter which type you're dealing with it's always best to keep your hands away from the business end.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

llombardo said:


> It hurts a lot less now, but is still slightly swollen and still tender. As the swelling is going down I'm able to use the hand more, but if I hit it the wrong way I'm seeing stars. I'm almost able to make a fist without pain. I have to keep moving it do it doesn't get stiff. It was way worse yesterday. I am on antibiotics. I clean the wounds 2x a day. I actually let it air out last night and wrapped it back up this morning. My whole body is sore from lifting and holding him. Unless I see any real redness or streaking do I have to return. I Have actually added cleaning it with collodial silver and I'm also using vetericyn, for some reason that always helps me heal, even if it is for dogs. I am good, just have to heal up.
> 
> Thank you for your concern. I know puncture wounds are bad, I am watching it carefully.


Have the antibiotics you are taking been appropriately prescribed by a doctor or nurse practitioner? 
Did you mean by "having to return" if signs and symptoms worsen that you are to return to the doctor's office? I hope so. But I can see why people bitten by their own dogs might be hesitant to seek medical treatment. Medical people would have had to report the bite as I understand the law in Illinois.
https://www.animallaw.info/statute/il-dog-bite-chapter-510-animals

Please note a-15 as it concerns legal requirement of health care professionals and a-20 concerns rehoming or euthanizing by the owner.

I am so sorry you are going through this. This is terrible. The second thing- I noticed you have seven dogs. Maybe the poor dog just lost it because of overcrowding stress.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Here is some interesting advice https://www.aafp.org/afp/2014/0815/p239.html

Table 1.
Factors That Increase the Risk of Infection from an Animal Bite
Bite in extremities with underlying venous and/or lymphatic compromise

Bite involving the hand

Bite near or in a prosthetic joint

Cat bites

Crush injuries

Delayed presentation

Greater than 6 to 12 hours for bites to the arm or leg

Greater than 12 to 24 hours for bites to the face

Puncture wounds

Victim with diabetes mellitus or immunosuppression


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Yep I did. Once I got him to release, I got him in a headlock and lifted him in the air. Completely the wrong end to lift, I know. Nothing I did in this fight was smart. No need to remind me of this. I know what my errors were and I know I have to get a plan together.


Not trying to beat you up. Just the more that we know, the more we can help you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not trying to beat you up. Just the more that we know, the more we can help you.


I know and everyone has been great. Really. Today it's harder because as Robyn and Tannor are getting older, they are not liking the fire works, so o have to keep an eye on them.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Lombardo, I have no advice to offer, but you are already getting plenty of advice and suggestions from people with a lot of experience. I just wanted to say that I am so sorry you are in this position, we all know how much you love your dogs. I hope it works out that you can safely keep Apollo, but if it doesn't, it won't be because you didn't try.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Tannor will be 9. when I say it doesn't make sense it's because of the time it happened. It was in the middle of the night, everyone was sleeping. There was no movement. Tannor was actually laying down when APOLLO went for him. Tannor was literally laying there still when I got there. I don't think he knew what hit him and oddly he wasn't affected or phased. Just weird. I can not for the life of me think if any logical reason. *Is it possible something like a seizure happened to Rannor and it freaked APOLLO out?* That would be a stretch, Tannor is a healthy dog and I've never witnessed anything with either dog.
> 
> 
> There is no more crate and rotate. It's strictly the crate with APOLLO. He will have more freedom on his own once the run is looked over. I will not allow him direct access to any dogs any longer. I will consider it with a muzzle only.


Maybe it's not Tannor having the seizure?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> You either have exceptional dogs, or have been exceptionally lucky! But either way, expecting that your dog is going to have that kind of control is downright dangerous! I prefer a strategically thrown glass of water, as it breaks the spell enough for the dogs to respond to commands, and doesn't put your hands or arms at risk!


Sorry, I wasn't trying to advocate breaking up dog fights in stupid ways. I did break up some in stupid ways and got away with it. I too prefer throwing water or some other way safer method.

But also not every dog will send you to the hospital for breaking up a fight, even with a lapse in judgement when you do it in a stupid way, was all I was trying to say

She got into it one time with my old male. Only time in his life I ever saw him blow back at another dog. He decided he had had enough of her crap, and I wish he had done it years ago because it was good for her. But anyway I had to break it up and HE bit me. Just so happened it was outside in the dead of winter and I was wearing really thick winter gloves with a canvas outer which were punctured through. It would have been an ER trip if I hadn't had the gloves on. So yeah, I have some that count as exceptionally lucky.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah I would rule out any health issues. Is he getting under exercise it can lead to behavior issues in some dogs. I remember you mention he had issues with rescource guardian in the past. Are there any other additions to the house. It would be a rough life to be crated all day. With all the other dogs it’s hard to give him the attention he needs when out of the crate. A large kennel with plenty of space to run and move about sounds best. A basket muzzle that he can comfortably wear is also something else to look into as mentioned. You have to try and see how this works for you, Apollo and your dogs before making a big decision like rehoming. One day at a time. Very important to take care of your hand you have lots of animals depending on you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

That is a good point, these dogs need a lot of physical exercise. Mental stimulation may tire them out but it does nothing to address the mandatory physical needs of a breed like this.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

*Update*

Healing up slowly but surely here. I have decided that I can't get rid of APOLLO. I am instead spending some time watching all of them and reinforcing training. I'm working on Robyn first, she likes to play rough and be bossy--no more. I tell her no and in the bathroom she goes, repeat until she gets it. She is improving. Over the weekend I spent some time with Apollo. We played ball for about an hour each day, until he was panting and not moving as fast. I think he really enjoyed it. He is no longer pacing the run.. He still barks like crazy when other dogs are going in and out(this would be Brennan and Batman), we are working on that next. I will start taking him hiking with a basket muzzle because people here do not follow leash laws., once my hand completely heals. Swimming has been on hold because the pool was not cleaned after my staph infection, so I'm taking that down and I got a smaller one that the dogs can still swim in, but I can manage on my own without help because help I don't have. 

I will update more as I make more progress.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Glad to hear you are healing and putting in place workable solutions for your dogs. I hope things keep heading in the right direction.


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## Teresa (May 2, 2012)

Get a metal cage muzzle. The one I have is comfortable for my German. He can eat treats and drink water with it on. I use it during recall class. He has leash aggression, and it just makes everyone more comfortable knowing there will be no worries of injury.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Happy to hear!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Llomdardo, I don't post much anymore but have always enjoyed your posts. For what it is worth, here is my 2 cents. Doesn't sound like your enjoying all your dogs. You have a good heart, but you can't save them all. You need to find a good home for the aggressive dog. You are not doing him or your other dog any favors. Eventually, you are going to get hurt and be unable to care for all your dogs and could loose them all. Sorry for being blunt.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

This is not going to be popular or sound very nice. But llombardo, you have too many dogs. Your heart is in the right place, but this problem you're currently having has been brewing for a while. Your dogs have been allowed to kind of rule the roost and it has often sounded to me as if they have kind of packed up and are more interested in being dogs with other dogs and you're the nice lady that feeds them.


Crate and rotate stinks. I did it for ten years. I didn't spend any time wondering why Tanner suddenly didn't "like" Jackson, and I didn't try and figure out some pattern of turn out for all my dogs so that Tanner could have a buddy. I kept him crated. Not in a bathroom and not in a laundry room. Crated. In my bedroom. All my dogs have their own crates, even if the door is often open. They get fed in there and they learn to relax in there. Tanner had his time loose in the house, he had his free time in the yard and he got his daily walk and training time (training was just for fun, because he loved it). Then he was crated and the other dogs got out of their crates. I did that for ten years.


Tanner would displace his aggression onto humans in the blink of an eye. Even I received a serious bite from him on my inner thigh when he came up the leash in frustration. I KNOW how difficult life can be with a dog aggressive dog. But I made the choice to keep him and work with him and crate and rotate. 



Do not try to place this dog yourself. I can almost guarantee that something bad will happen. And reputable rescues are full of dogs that don't have there issues. And you don't want him to end up in a disreputable place.


Suck it up, do a real deal crate and rotate or euthanize him. You're the one who chose to bring that many dogs into your home. It isn't all rainbows and puppy love. Sometimes it really hard having that many dogs. 



Personally? I don't see any reason why you can't crate and rotate. And I don't see any reason why you can't put some serious training on this dog that will make the crate and rotate doable. 



I am sorry if this is harsh. But you need a dose of reality.
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, sometimes dogs just aren't good with other dogs. Having a run outside, and using a crate when the dog is not in his run, either to crate him, or to give the other dogs crate time when he is loose in the house is probably the best way to go. 


When you have a number of dogs, it is really just a matter of time before it gets out of hand, and everyone just can't be friends. I had Eight young dogs all running together and it was really cool until one day Rushie jumped Dubya outside, I was busy getting the two of them separated when I heard WWIII happen through the doggy door in the house. Arwen had gotten into it with Jenna and the others piled on. I bursted through the door with Rushie -- Dubya was in his kennel, Rushie piled onto the fight, and I started dragging the youngsters off and crating them until it was just Arwen and Jenna. Then I went about the task of removing their teeth from each other. 


There was a time after that, where every dog had its own kennel and I never let ANY of the dogs run around together. 


And then I started leaving some boys together, and some male/female combos together. When Jenna would have a litter, her last pup or two would be housed with her, male or female. I had Jenna in with two bitch-pups for 3 years, no problem. 


Now my dogs are mostly in pairs. Some are bitch-bitch, well Ramona was in with Karma her dam for a little more than two years, Babs is in with Quinnie, Quinn will be 3 in October. Others are male/female Cujo and Hepsi, Kojak &Lassie. Bear (female) is in with her 5 month old daughter. And that is ten of the fourteen regulars. Some bitches need to be on their own, and I ran out of double kennels. Joy might do fine with Odie, but Ninja and Heidi need their own space, even at their ages. 


Whatever, it does not damage a dog to have its outside-time, or to be crated at least some of the time. And I there are leadership issues, not allowing total free-for-all, or complete run of the house, actually can be helpful.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I used to have a collection of 8 or 9 large monitors. This is a genus of large lizards related to the Komodo Dragon. They had their own house and the species kept separate because they will fight. Due to circumstances I had to rehome them. Now I have only one monitor lizard. Here is an example of the teeth of the one I have now, a Water monitor. What happens is when monitor lizards are fed they go into a frenzy and will bite anything that moves. If you are bitten it is a trip to the ER.

What is most remarkable is how much better it is to have one instead of many. 

When I got Inga, my first German Shepherd, as she grew into adolescence I could see this is unlike any dog breed I have ever known. To do them right in exercise and training is a full time job. I was thankful that I only had one. I felt that she deserved my full attention and she requires all my attention. Seems like having a lot of German Shepherds is kind of like having a house full of monitor lizards.


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## Hazel GSD (Jun 26, 2018)

PLEASE READ

I am totally familier with your situation. My dog of 17 years was just like Apollo. A dog, let's attack it! A cat, lemme eat it! He would fight anything he could get his hands on. Yet, we still trusted him outside(our yard is not fenced) with no leash or tether or anything. He ran free. He sometimes left the house, didn't get in a single dog fight. But when we were there? He would fight. It's no coincidence. Piglet was his name. He lived with another dog who he and a few scuffles with, but not many. He also lived with 2 cats. If you have ever read any of Ceaser Millan's books, you will know what I'm talking about when I tell you this. It's not Apollo. It's you. I am not trying to be a jerk?, but it's true. Let's be honest here. Whenever you see a dog, do you get all rigid, reel in the leash, and your stress skyrockets? I am betting it does. With my GSD, Hazel, I used to do the same thing. But, I beg you, please do not do that anymore. Have a secure hold on the leash, but also give some slack. Do not get stiff or rigid. Stay relaxed. Do not get anxious!! Take a deep breath and be calm. This is how it looks to Apollo

Apollo: Oh dog! Hm... let's play!
You: Oh now! *Reels in leash, gets stiff, anxiety soars
Apollo: Wait. What? My human is scared! Let's go fight that dog! I'll protect you!

See how that plays out in his mind? This is how it will play out (hopefully with practice) of you are calm and assertive. 

Apollo: Oh dog! Maybe he wants to play! But it seems my human is scared of them all.. let's go have a look

Human: *Strong hold on leash, calm, assertive*. Apollo, no. Heel *looking straight ahead, NOT AT APOLLO, shoulders back, leash relaxed, no anxiety, ready to move on*

Apollo: Wow! She isn't scared this time! Maybe it isn't a threat! Wait.. she isn't letting me say hi. Oh well. Later dog!

Now, this senero will take lots and lots of practice, but I give you my word, it will help. No dog is born agressive or naturally agressive. You made him that way, by shielding him from other dogs. That simply cannot happen. Every dog has a pack instinct in them, so before a fight, they will try and work together. A dog fight is almost never unprovoked. I hope this gives hope. Please continue reading, this is vital information. 

Another problem here. Exercise. Apollo is in a crate most of the day you said.. correct? That is a problem. If he is in the crate all day, with no way to channel his energy, that is contributing to your issue. When he finally comes out for a walk or something he thinking "yes! Free! Let's pull her and.. oh dog! Let's play! (Plays to rough because energy is to high) oh wow, he is fighting me! Oh! Mom is scared! Oh! Fight back!!" See how it works? You are pretty much fueling the fire. Put him outside, even consider possibly a trolly line to put him on so he will be safe, but able to run around before a walk. Play with him, run him around, tire him out. Once this is done, time for a walk! He will have less energy to pull, play to rough, or other problems. One last issue. Apollo is looking for a pack leader as all dogs are. He is searching and while he cannot find one he becomes his own pack leader, and more dominant, which in turn causes him to fight other dogs for dominance. You must become the pack leader. He must learn to trust you in all cases. Then, the dog fighting will cease, for he knows you are the leader, not him. I hope this helps. Please let me know how it goes. Please do not put him up for adoption yet! Give him a few months to work, and I can promise results. Please please give him a chance. During the process, you should have him wear a muzzle so in case he is with another dog, he cannot hurt it. Thanks for reading this whole thing! Good luck with your amazing boy!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Looks like update is needed here..

APOLLO is not going anywhere. We have come up with a routine that works for all of them. APOLLO actually gets walked a couple times a day, which makes him extremely happy. I have been doing crate and rotate for a while with a couple others, so this is not new. They are keeping me super busy, because I am giving them all individual time, along with exercise. The only difference is APOLLO no longer gets to sleep with me and he has gotten used to that. As far as groups? I have them situated so that they are NOT pairing up. When they go outside I want the dogs that don't ibteract together and this is working well. My focus is on the senior dog. I want her to not be stepped on or aggravated. She is going to be 14 and getting up is a real issue right now. So the grouping is working around her and who respects her space. I want them doing their own thing on their own and right now that is what we have. When I let them out, they all go different ways--exactly what I wanted. 

So it's working. They are all happy and that was my goal. I feel good, I'm actually loosing weight with all this new exercise. So it's a win win for everyone.

And to whomever said I chose to bring all these dogs in, your right I did and I have no intentions of letting any of them down. If you knew even a little bit about me, you would know this.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

I hope your system continues to work for you. Stay safe and uninjured.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> I hope your system continues to work for you. Stay safe and uninjured.


That is the plan. We are looking at it being a long term plan too.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I’m glad things are all working out!


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