# The Skinny on Police or Note



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/take-poll/278346-police-note.html


Okay here is the story. Some have seen me post on FB and some here. I have neighbors who have 5 dogs. Limit is 4 per city ordinance. The parents have 3 and the son and daughter who have moved back home this year each have a dog. The dogs bark a lot. I really do not care if they bark all day as I am at work, but I hate sitting out in the evening or on the weekend and listening to them for hours. Last year someone called ACO on them, they accused us. We said no we had been in Tulsa all day and did not know anything about this. We chatted, exchanged cell phone numbers and I promised them if I thought the dogs were a nuisance I would let them know before calling the authorities. I kind of thought we were okay on this. Many instances of dogs barking for hours on end, even being able to hear them in my house over the TV lead me to go over to speak to them. No one home. No one home next day either so I left what I thought was a polite note. I did this twice. Nothing changed. I decided it was time to call the authorities. 

Let's back track a bit: We moved here in May 2009. The fence was a 3 foot broken chain link. Not adequate for any dog. So we put up a 6 ft privacy fence. We asked the neighbors if they minded even though it did not matter if they did, we were being polite. They were happy about it. or so we thought. For the next few years we kept hearing comments about the fence and the dogs. "Tham some big dawgs!" etc. I was getting my nails done and the wife was waiting her turn, she commented they were terrified of the dogs. Why? Well we put up that BIG fence, they must be mean dogs. What?? Really? 

Fast forward to Monday: 

I took the day off work as my sister had been visiting. She left about 1. My mother in law was moved to a nursing home last month and all her stuff was in my garage. The weather forecast was for really bad weather coming in (same system that spawned the tornados in OKC) . I wanted my car in the garage so I shoved stuff around and got it in. 6 inches to spare on either side. I took a break and grabbed a soda and went out to the yard and let the dogs out with me. The garage door was up. The man door was closed as I closed it.

I think the wind must have blown the man door open. I must not have fully closed it. I heard the neighbor yell and I looked and noticed Kayos was missing. I squeezed through the garage and saw her nosing at the neighbor's schnauzers that were loose on his lawn. KAYOS WAS OFF MY PROPERTY!!! WRONG WRONG WRONG! 

However, she was wagging her tail and just doing her 'hey buddy what are you doing' thing. The neighbor screamed at me to get my dog, she was attacking his dogs. (no she was not). But I was wrong,my dog was out for the first time in 4 years living here I had a loose dog. I grabbed her and as I did he began kicking her. He kicked her til she was screaming. I apologized for her being out and got her in the house. I came back out to apologize again and to ask if his dogs were hurt. I knew they was not as it was trotting around his yard. He screamed that if he ever saw one of my dogs again he would kill them. Not seeing them loose just seeing them. I lost it. I screamed at the top of my lungs and called him an ignorant moron and a red neck. Then he screamed back he was proud of being a red neck and started thumping his chest and repeated his threat to kill my dogs. He screamed that I was harassing him because I put a note on his door about dogs barking. 

It was just bad, bad, bad. I have had GSD's since 1989, we have lived in 7 homes since then and I have never had a problem with a neighbor over my dogs - ever. 

I came back inside, called my hubby and he said call the police. So I did. I wanted to insure the threat was documented. The police wanted me to press charges against the guy for animal cruelty. I declined. My dog was lose, I was wrong. Did I like that he kicked her? No. Was it way over the top? Yes. 

Today Kayos went to the vet as she has not been able to walk since Monday. She is on Tramadol for pain. The silver lining here is I found a very small pea sized lump in the crook of her foreleg that will be biopsied next Wednesday. 

Mind you, Kayos is almost 11, very arthritic and can barely run anyway. No way she could have chased that dog that far unless she was really motivated. She has never shown dog aggression in her life. The neighbor lets his dogs out in front all the time. We have picked up poop from our lawn, taken them home when they escaped, chased them out of the our garage etc. With all the stuff in my garage I am convinced the dogs were on my driveway again. Kayos would never have seen the dogs through all the furniture and car in there unless they had been in the garage. 

We are now on a war footing with the neighbor and I am sick about it. We have an alarm system and are adding security cameras to our package. If I see the neighbors dogs on my property we call the police. If I hear excessive barking we call the police. No more nice neighbor, no more notes or talking. I have log book started.

I understand protecting your dog, I will protect mine too. But she was not even trying to bite the dog and her body language was having fun. Poor Kayos. Old dog did not deserve that. Maybe her owner did but she sure did not. 

I joined this forum when I was looking for Kayos, now she an old lady.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would be LIVID. First, accidents happen so stop blaming yourself. I don't think once in 4 years is anything to beat yourself up over. Second, the guy was way over the line and out of control. LIVID....


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Michelle, I blamed myself. My hubby has gotten angrier and angrier. Even my vet said WAY over the top. Block the dog, push the dog, grab the dog but don't kick an old dog that is not aggressing. If she had been aggressing, well, she gets what she gets. My vet said I was way too nice about this.


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## LuccaVonCyclone (Apr 17, 2013)

I would have pressed charges. Poor Kayos. Hope she feels better


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes you do all you can to and shtuff still happens. 

You already covered all the bases I can think of. Security cameras, documenting everything. 

Keep interface with this jerk as close to zero as possible. Try not to escalate the war if possible. 

If I had mace on me, and that man was kicking my dog after I was holding her collar, I think I would have nailed him with it.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh gosh, I'm so sorry. Poor Kayos.

I'm so sorry you have to go through this with your neighbor, too. What a jerk. Even when you're completely in the right (as you are!), just having that kind of unpleasantness around always gives me such a clenched stomach.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Michelle, I blamed myself. My hubby has gotten angrier and angrier. Even my vet said WAY over the top. Block the dog, push the dog, grab the dog but don't kick an old dog that is not aggressing. My vet said I was way too nice about this.


I can understand, I would blame myself as well, but you have a very small portion of the blame. You are a responsible dog owner who makes sure your dogs are contained and not bothering the neighbors. The ONE time in four years, a SENIOR dog gets out...and the guy kicks her and then proceeds to scream and threaten a woman and her animals while thumping his chest like a monkey?? 

Nope, Kathy, do not be to hard on yourself. Your neighbor has a very large portion of the blame. I'm angry for you!

I hope Kayos heals quickly. Poor girl 

Now, how to do you go forward without the situation escalating so you have to worry about the safety of your animals?


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear you're going through this. Your neighbor sounds like a nut, kicking a non aggresive dog and injuring her. Get those security cameras up and maybe talk to other neighbors to see if has antagonized anyone else.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Scorched earth policy. You've put up with noise and ordinance violations but your neighbors have gone crazy over an accident. Document every infraction, start a case file with Animal Control and no longer let anything slide.
I've had to take this tactic and it is surprising how quickly matters resolved once the authorities were involved.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Geez Kathy, I'm so sorry this happened. What a dangerous idiot. Who the heck thumps their chest screaming about killing?

Poor Kayos. Give her a hug from me,

I would also add poison control, walking your property, to the list of security measures.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I honestly think that I would have kicked him if he kicked my dog. This was not a dog attack by any means and he was WRONG. If your dog was vicious and seriously hurting the other dog I can understand trying to protect a dog, but to kick a dog repeatedly that was already contained? That is one sick man....


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

go for the balls so to speak. the neighbor is crazy and there was no reason to act like a heathen and kick an obviously non-aggressive dog that was contained.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Wow, what an idiot. I wish I could keep calm like you, there's a good chance my response would have gotten me arrested. I agree on the cameras and make sure he knows you have them. Hopefully they will discourage him from trying anything else. I hope Kayos feels better soon.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I'd have pressed charges. 
Yeah your dog was off your property but she was not hurting anyone. 
If they want to be a-holes then treat them that way.

I think I'd move house 

Hope your girl feels better soon!!!



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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Sounds like you got yourself one awesome neighbor there, said with sarcasm. This guy sounds like he might have a screw loose. Please be careful as who knows how nutty he can be. Kick a dog today, burn your house down tomorrow. Is there another person in that house that you can talk to and reason with? The wife, kids? You need to try to de escalate the tensions so he doesn't think it is a game of one up man ship. I would also watch your back.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Betty good idea on checking for poison. 

We work for the Army as civilian employees and move every 4 or 5 years. We would be up for a move within the year if the budget were not such a mess. Eventually we will be moved.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Things would not have turned out well for your neighbor had that happened here.

I hope Kayos is getting better. Poor dog.

I'd still level charges.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's probably too far for that.

The line has been crossed when the neighbor started kicking the dog after Kathy had a hold of the collar. He demonstrated a level of anger and lack of control that is indicative of a person unable to be reasoned with.

Extremely angry people and bullies see attempts at placating as a weakness and will only use that to their advantage. 

I had to deal with that with a now estranged family member (not dog related) but a person who thinks he is ALWAYS in authority. When asked to leave my property he refused. He was starting an altercation with my DH and I wanted him to leave before it went to physical blows. No matter how I asked, firmly but low tone of voice or yelling at the top of my lungs he would not leave my property. 

I was then faced with trying to physically remove him, which would have possibly made me guilty of assault or call the police.

He finally left when I came out with my cell phone and as I started pressing the numbers I said loudly - "I AM CALLING 9-1-1" He got in his truck and left. As he was leaving I yelled "You are NEVER welcome on my property again and will be tresspassing if you ever come back".

He did not heed my warnings to leave because he sees himself as an authority figure ALL THE TIME. He IS the law in his mind. There is no de-escalating with people like that. Been there tried that....for many years with this guy and it never improved. 

If he ever steps even one foot on my property I will call the police immediately, there are no more second chances for people like that.

I suspect that this is what Kathy is dealing with as well. People like that really believe THEY are in the position of power and authority and no amount of being nice will change that. 

The only thing that bullies and crazy people respect are bullies much tougher then they or crazier then they. That's just how some people are.




Cheyanna said:


> Sounds like you got yourself one awesome neighbor there, said with sarcasm. This guy sounds like he might have a screw loose. Please be careful as who knows how nutty he can be. Kick a dog today, burn your house down tomorrow. Is there another person in that house that you can talk to and reason with? The wife, kids? You need to try to de escalate the tensions so he doesn't think it is a game of one up man ship. I would also watch your back.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

First of all...I give you all the kudos in the world for not physically going after the idiot who was kicking your dog. I know that I wouldn't have been able to hold my composure like that...especially a senior dog. Yes, your dog was off property, but that was no reason to kick an obviously non aggressive dog.

I would call the cops, personally. Humans like that can only escalate to even worse things. Just like someone else said, poison control in the yard wouldn't be a bad thing.

I wish you luck and a speedy recovery for Kayos.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope the majority of you are all talking big. 

The absolute worse thing Kathy could have done in this situation was to hit or punch or kick the guy. The reason I suggested mace is that it would have probably incapacitated him enough for her to get her dog in the house with the door locked so she could then call the police. 

But striking this guy would have done two bad things. He would then be able to switch his attack to her, possibly causing serious injury. And when all things were sorted out, neither or both might have been charged. And secondly, her elderly dog that did not protect herself, might have done something different if the attack was on her owner. And if the dog would have bitten this guy, after having been loose, well, a jury probably would see it your way, but a lot of these cases never make it to trial, as home-owner's insurance will just pay, and then dump you like a hot potato. So then, this yayhoo walks away smelling like a rose, rewarded for his brutality, and the the dog/her owner, might be facing repercussions, and as they are service, there are some funky rules and I am not sure that that would go over well. 

I think it is natural to say what we would have wanted to do, but I doubt that many of us would have actually done something very differently, or handled it as well as Kathy did.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I, too, think Kathy handled it pretty well. The first thing to do is get Kayos out of there and safely into the house. The guy was completely out of control and no telling what he would have done if Kathy had lost it and gone after him.

Going forward, I would not say a word to the neighbor. Any future altercation would be handled by dialing 911.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

I am so sorry Kathy...poor Kayos. We all know you are a responsible owner and sometimes stuff just happens  I hope Kayos will be ok.

Over the years I have learned that most people can't be reasoned with when it comes to their dogs unfortunately. 

Give Kayos some love from us!


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

-------" I grabbed her and as I did he began kicking her. He kicked her til she was screaming. I apologized for her being out and got her in the house."-------

I would not have apologized. I'd be looking for a way to see how hard he can kick with a broken leg at the very first opportunity.

-----" I declined. My dog was lose, I was wrong."-------

NO!!! You were NOT wrong. HE was. AND he STILL IS. You are letting him get away with it. YOU are training him that he can be an abusive jerk and get away with it.

------" The neighbor lets his dogs out in front all the time. We have picked up poop from our lawn, taken them home when they escaped, chased them out of the our garage etc. "--------

If they come into your garage, shut the door. Don't call your neighbor---call animal control to come get them.

Call the police back and see if you can go ahead and press charges. 

At the very least, your neighbor should reimburse you for the vet visit and make a public apology that meets your approval printed in the local paper---preferably everyday for a week.

Pay a visit to your local prosecuting attorney and see if you can get this done.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I suspect you are a man?

Women usually have to handle things like this differently and it's not all together the wrong way either.

First priority is calm the situation down long enough to get the dog out of the way of harm. If that requires apologizing to calm the attacker down a bit to remove the animal from the situation so be it. I would have done the same thing, Kathy probably was at a disadvantage on several levels protecting the dog, getting off the man's property and probably not stronger then he is.

I'm sure there is a part of her that would have liked to deck the guy but priorities and reality are what they are. I know I've been at a disadvantage in a couple of situations similiar to this in my life and I wish I were a bigger and stronger like a guy but I'm not.

Even if Kathy were strong enough to take on the guy the best outcome would be a stalemate with her possibly on the hook for assualt charges. Nothing gained in that.

Nope, cunning is best. I have a saying, I don't get even, I get ahead.

Sometimes one should cultivate a little Sun Tzu.

Personally I think she handled it correctly and has had the right ideas of coping with this going forward. 







Wetdog said:


> -------" I grabbed her and as I did he began kicking her. He kicked her til she was screaming. I apologized for her being out and got her in the house."-------
> 
> I would not have apologized. I'd be looking for a way to see how hard he can kick with a broken leg at the very first opportunity.
> 
> ...


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

You are right Gwenhwyfair, I'm a man.

Sometimes one should cultivate a little Sun Tzu.

----" When the enemy is strong, withdraw. When your enemy is weak, attack."-----

I'd go around and talk to the other people in the neighborhood. See if there were any other witnesses to the incident. And see what the other people around him think of this jerk, and if he has done the same type of things to them.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I like your style Fred!!! 

Sadly, in an effort to keep the post a tad shorter, I did not state that he had friends over watching the whole thing. You can see whose side they would take and can pretty well guess what a statement to police would say.

A neighbor across the street and 4 doors down was on his lawn and saw it. He could not see much as he was a ways off. All he saw was the dogs face to face and the nut ball yelling. He saw me come and grab her but we were all so close he could not tell what precipitated her being kicked. He did hear me call the moron and F--------- red neck and did hear the threat. Yesterday I saw hime and his wife out walking their dogs past my house and went out to ask them what they saw. It was clear they wanted part of it and kept walking. I just walked with them back to their house and politely persisted on his story, thanked him for being honest with me and then went back to my house. Not sure he was fully honest but he was not going to get involved either. 

So we have a he said/she said. 

We have hunkered down. Any further infraction on his part gets a call to ACO. If he steps foot on our property we call the police. We see a loose dog with no owner in sight, off to the shelter, pay a fee to get the dog back. 

I forgot that last year one of their Spinonis got out and charged my hubby on the front step of our house.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Nice "quote" there....fred. 



Wetdog said:


> You are right Gwenhwyfair, I'm a man.
> 
> Sometimes one should cultivate a little Sun Tzu.
> 
> ...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Oh, Kathy! This just stinks. There is nothing worse than dealing with rude, idiot neighbors. I hope you can find a modicum of peace in your own home and that you get posted somewhere else sooner, rather than later.
Sheilah


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

OMG Poor Kayos and poor YOU! 

I would have been yelling my head off like you did, I'm not sure I would have hit the guy with all his buddies around. But I do think I would have pressed charges. It might have escalated things, but I'd want him to know I meant business..

My husband would have been livid as well..And yes, I'd throw cameras up, and if him or his dogs are on your property/barking I'd call the police/AC..

Did you also tell AC? I would file a report with them as well.

I hope Kayos is ok, and these jerks stay away..


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

so sorry you had to go through this ...and I too hope Kayos is ok. I would make sure your dogs are NEVER out alone again in even your yard with that nut job next door. I would be afraid he'd send poison or something over.  
I just hate people like that. I won't even pull punches about it..people like that are on my HATE list.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Kay is much better today! Looks like her spirit is coming back!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Great to hear Kayos is feeling better!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Glad to hear she's better. That really stinks you have to live with this situation, I wouldn't trust this guy, sounds like an idiot. 
I just started setting up video cameras I was suprised how easy it was. Good luck dealing with this guy, I honestly don't know what I would have done if someone did that to my dog and I certainy hope I never have to. Just sitting here thinking about it I feel my blood boiling.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've read everything. 

Honestly, stop blaming yourself and press charges! 

Sometimes we have to stop blaming ourselves. So your dog got out. You were there. Big deal, nothing to blame you for. The guy kicking your dog was in the wrong, even IF your dog was out on the lose. So was his!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Even if his was leashed, even if the dog was threatening, after it was not, there was no reason for him to continue to _protect_ his dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'd definitely call police in the future...but I don't think pressing charges for that altercation would've been a good idea. OP was right...her dog was off-lead and on the other person's property. All of us GSD owners can sit there and go "well we know what a happy/not dangerous GSD looks like" but guess what...the rest of the public just sees a 120 lb dog that is known to be the best military/police dog out there coming their way.

Police will usually listen and be on the side of who ever calls first. But when the facts come out, I don't think anyone would've gotten in trouble but OP for having their dog off leash and trespassing on someone else's property. BTW...many laws take a huge 180 when they happen on private property, and in a he said/she said situation...person on the other side of the GSD will probably get the benefit of the doubt for "protecting" their dogs.

I hate to hear neighbor dispute stories...scares me to move each time just in case you do run into idiots like this. The truth is...nothing can really happen, sure you want to document everything in case the guy does something stupid...but it still means your dogs are in danger and if the worst does happen you might get reimbursed for them...still means your dog suffers.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wow, that is HORRIBLE! :angryfire: Total overreaction on his part, anybody with half a brain would have seen that Kayos was no threat, especially after you'd already grabbed her. I think you handled it as best you could, hopefully he'll calm down and not try to retaliate in any way. I'm glad the police took his threat seriously too, and you're right to document everything going forward.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I suspect that since he reacted over the top once you had Kay by the collar was because he was scared of her when she first came up. That embarassed him in front of his friends. So he reacted (by kicking) badly. 

He's a coward. Cowards do cowardly things. That is what concerns me. Cowards do cowardly things.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Lilie said:


> I suspect that since he reacted over the top once you had Kay by the collar was because he was scared of her when she first came up. That embarassed him in front of his friends. So he reacted (by kicking) badly.
> 
> He's a coward. Cowards do cowardly things. That is what concerns me. Cowards do cowardly things.


Which IMHO this is exactly why the police should be involved ... you don't know what else this coward could do if he's willing to kick an old dog who's on a leash under control of its owner.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

martemchik said:


> I'd definitely call police in the future...but I don't think pressing charges for that altercation would've been a good idea. OP was right...her dog was off-lead and on the other person's property. All of us GSD owners can sit there and go "well we know what a happy/not dangerous GSD looks like" but guess what...the rest of the public just sees a 120 lb dog that is known to be the best military/police dog out there coming their way.
> 
> Police will usually listen and be on the side of who ever calls first. But when the facts come out, I don't think anyone would've gotten in trouble but OP for having their dog off leash and trespassing on someone else's property. BTW...many laws take a huge 180 when they happen on private property, and in a he said/she said situation...person on the other side of the GSD will probably get the benefit of the doubt for "protecting" their dogs.
> 
> I hate to hear neighbor dispute stories...scares me to move each time just in case you do run into idiots like this. The truth is...nothing can really happen, sure you want to document everything in case the guy does something stupid...but it still means your dogs are in danger and if the worst does happen you might get reimbursed for them...still means your dog suffers.


Absolutely. Kayos is only 65 pounds but looks bigger as she is a plushy. But I think what bothered me most of all here, is that her run is a funny rolling walk run, she is clearly very arthritic and old. I may not have seen the entire altercation but I could hear it. She never made any threatening sound, no barking. And when I came round the corner she was just nosing the dog. He WAY over reacted. But he is also terrified of my dogs. I know this as his wife has told me that on several occassions. 

Whether his reaction was over the top or not, Kayos was off her property. I am angry at the guy for being so hard on an old dog. I am angrier at myself for not double checking the door. I could have charges of animal abuse filed against him and it would surely cause this to escalate. I would love to be 'right' and pound him in court but not unless I have very clear proof. I am keeping a log and my phone is in my pocket at all times. Last night the daughter had her spaniel out and it crossed onto my driveway. I was coming back to the house with Mayhem on leash. I politiely asked her to please leash her dog and remove it from my driveway. I said please and thank you, while gritting my teeth. But I am not going to loose my cool over this again. I am more afraid of what he would do to my "kids". I just wish I had a third hand to get a picture but I was wlaking a dog and had a tug in the other hand. He knows his dogs are often on my property and the fact that I was polite and even smiled when I said hello Krissy, to the daughter probably makes him angrier. He is a coward and I also imagine he is pretty embarrassed too. 

ADT installs surveillance cameras on Friday. I don't need this expense right now as we just got our official furlough notice today (gotta love sequestration) but it is a necessary expense to keep the dogs safe.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Kathy Iam so sorry that you are going through this. I think how you handled the situation was your best possible option. I hope Kaos starts to feeel better. Maybe the jerk will move. I would be tempted to press charges but it could make things more manageable but its just as if not more likely to escalate things w/ an idiot like that. The TC to the cops does start the paper trail and I will bet he has had some other LEO issues w/ the community at large.I have a huge spot in my heart for the old GSD girls so his actions are unpardonable. Kaos deserves better neighbors andso do you.Take care


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> Absolutely. Kayos is only 65 pounds but looks bigger as she is a plushy. But I think what bothered me most of all here, is that her run is a funny rolling walk run, she is clearly very arthritic and old. I may not have seen the entire altercation but I could hear it. She never made any threatening sound, no barking. And when I came round the corner she was just nosing the dog. He WAY over reacted. But he is also terrified of my dogs. I know this as his wife has told me that on several occassions.


Lol my 120 lbs comment was because everyone thinks GSDs are huge. Unless you have a really little one, they're definitely over 100 lbs or a puppy.

I really don't think you can file animal abuse charges. Seriously people...if the dog is on that person's property...it doesn't matter how much "control" the owner has...they're on someone else's private property. It's very easy to say you're protecting yourself and your dogs.

I'm not sure what took OP so long to pull the dog away from the situation by the collar that the guy still got kicks in...but it would clearly prove that the dog didn't willingly want to leave. Sorry...but I have an 85 lbs male that I could easily move 5 feet in a second if I had him by the collar. I really feel like if OP had tried to file charges, OP would've been charged with not having control of a dog and then her dog's would've been on record and that would lead to a much easier "self-defense" reason if the neighbor did act on his threats.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm glad to read that Kay's spirits are lifting. And Kathy, I agree with others that you handled the situation _extremely_ well.

Your description of your senior plushy Kayos with her rolling walk sounds exactly like my Mattie Lynn...and your neighbor could be my across the street neighbor's twin brother, from the sound of it. Talk about an excessive temper.

Hang in there! And keep smiling and saying please and thank you. Hopefully, your continued show of decent behavior will have a positive impact...or at the very least, keep things from escalating further.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

martemchik said:


> I really don't think you can file animal abuse charges. Seriously people...if the dog is on that person's property...it doesn't matter how much "control" the owner has...they're on someone else's private property. It's very easy to say you're protecting yourself and your dogs.


In some places you can actually. While a dog running at large is against the law here, (not for cats) it is also illegal to commit animal abuse against any dog just because it is running loose.

So here, as soon as I had a hold of my dogs collar and they started kicking it, they could of had animal abuse charged filed,and I could of had charges filed for having a dog at large.

I say could, because we have a three strike rule for dogs running at large, and for him it would have depended on what actual damage he did to the dog.

ETA: As far as saying they were protecting themselves from the dog, they person making the claim has the burden of proof. If they have no proof, they have no claim of protection. (thats how it is here)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

martemchik said:


> I'm not sure what took OP so long to pull the dog away from the situation by the collar that the guy still got kicks in...but it would clearly prove that the dog didn't willingly want to leave.


Not necessarily. If the guy was following as she pulled Kayos away he could easily get a few good kicks in. Not saying that's what happened since I have no idea, but it's certainly would be possible.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> ETA: As far as saying they were protecting themselves from the dog, they person making the claim has the burden of proof. If they have no proof, they have no claim of protection. (thats how it is here)


Wouldn't burden of proof be with the person filing the charges? So assuming the dog isn't injured...there would be no proof that any kind of abuse went on.

And I'm sorry...but if a GSD on your property isn't enough proof that you're protecting yourself from it...its a terrible law. If I found a big dog on my property...I don't know how I'd react. I'm good at reading body language, but with some dogs they can snap in an instant. So no matter how old, arthritic, ect that dog is...I would think its a danger to me.

Again...I believe the guy over reacted. Kicking a dog once its in the hands of the owner is way too much. But I always tread cautiously when dealing with the law...its amazing how many times it comes back to bite the person filing the complaint in the butt.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Not necessarily. If the guy was following as she pulled Kayos away he could easily get a few good kicks in. Not saying that's what happened since I have no idea, but it's certainly would be possible.


We can make 1000 assumptions on when it would be alright to file a charge...but I'm thinking this person was truly afraid of the dog. IF they're afraid of the dog...they're not about to follow you and kick the dog. Not many people will do that.

My assumption is that its alright to do almost anything you want to any threat you want on your own property. I would never do what this guy did...but 99% of people don't know how to read dogs, so if a GSD is staring at you, in your yard, and the owner is standing around calling it (before OP ran over to get the dog), its a danger to you and any of your pets...

We also always talk about how its not always about OUR dog being friendly, but the other person's dog being aggressive. What if his dogs were the aggressive ones and would've reacted to the GSD being there? They try to go after the GSD....piss the GSD off...and the GSD defends itself?

Too many times on this forum people tend to side with the GSD and the person they "know." Think of the story from the neighbor's POV and if they had posted it on this forum. Would you really blame the poster for reacting the way they did to a loose dog in their yard?

Sorry...I always like to think of the story from the other person's perspective. And if you look at it from their shoes, it doesn't really look the same as from OP's POV.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Wouldn't burden of proof be with the person filing the charges? So assuming the dog isn't injured...there would be no proof that any kind of abuse went on.
> 
> And I'm sorry...but if a GSD on your property isn't enough proof that you're protecting yourself from it...its a terrible law. If I found a big dog on my property...I don't know how I'd react. I'm good at reading body language, but with some dogs they can snap in an instant. So no matter how old, arthritic, ect that dog is...I would think its a danger to me.
> 
> Again...I believe the guy over reacted. Kicking a dog once its in the hands of the owner is way too much. But I always tread cautiously when dealing with the law...its amazing how many times it comes back to bite the person filing the complaint in the butt.




Sure, that might work if you've never seen the GSD before ever. AC isn't stupid, they've been neighbors long enough that if there had never been an incident before in the, say, five years they've been together, its kinda fishy that all of a sudden the dog is dangerous. The law is there to keep people from just deciding to make something up, which isn't all that uncommon sadly.

It's not so black and white. AC, or the police, have to decide what is going on from a whole slew of things, not just a simple he/she said.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

martemchik said:


> We can make 1000 assumptions on when it would be alright to file a charge...but I'm thinking this person was truly afraid of the dog. IF they're afraid of the dog...they're not about to follow you and kick the dog. Not many people will do that.
> 
> My assumption is that its alright to do almost anything you want to any threat you want on your own property. I would never do what this guy did...but 99% of people don't know how to read dogs, so if a GSD is staring at you, in your yard, and the owner is standing around calling it (before OP ran over to get the dog), its a danger to you and any of your pets...
> 
> ...



What someones assumption is and what laws state are two different things. It's already been stated that the dog shouldn't have been over there, what more do you want? 


It was stated that the dog was kicked AFTER she had control of the dog..if he was so afraid why did he wait? If he wasn't close enough to kick the dog before she got a hold of him, but was whens he did got a hold of him, that tells me that he's NOT afraid, because, as you said, someone who is afraid isn't going to run after a dog to kick it, especially AFTER its obvious the dog is now under control. That is not something someone does when they are afraid of a dog, sorry but no.

This isn't about defending anyone. Given the information that was presenting, your defense of someone being able to do that on their property makes no sense to me, and there are plenty of things people cannot do on their own property, depending on what the laws are in that area.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it is done and over with. At this point, we should move on with encouragement and suggestions for dealing with a neighbor who is likely to kill your dog if he gets another chance. An old girl like that can't manage too many kickings and she shouldn't have to. 

I normally like to give neighbors the benefit of the doubt and keep them on my happy-list, and try to go an extra mile to contain my dogs to ensure that they aren't ever going to give them a reason to complain. So my normal advice would be to not do anything that would escalate the already crazy situation. Like calling the police or animal control every time their dog hiccups. 

But, bullies are a funny breed. When they sense weakness, they will continue to attack, attack, attack. Weakness seems to anger them. Because they are in fact cowards. They can be big and bad, when they see something that is clearly weak. For this reason, I would do my best to ensure that I do not let any decent complaint go unheard by your local authorities. You do not want to come across as harrassing. But on the other hand, if you lay down for this guy, he will stomp all over you. So I think you are right in whenever his dog is out of his yard, whenever he breaks any noise ordinance, you call and complain. Having AC or the cops visiting, will let him know that you are not weak, and will stand up for yourself and your dogs. 

I hate the creep. I know that isn't helpful. But people who kick and old dog that isn't in any way threatening multiple times needs an attitude adjustment. Only anything you do, is likely to put you in a world of hurt, and have him singing. So, I will sit here and hate him for you. Now you can go on, and protect your dogs, you have a plan for any new issues, try to let all the negative energy at this point go, so you don't eat a hole in your stomach.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think it is done and over with. At this point, we should move on with encouragement and suggestions for dealing with a neighbor who is likely to kill your dog if he gets another chance. An old girl like that can't manage too many kickings and she shouldn't have to. . .
> 
> *So, I will sit here and hate him for you. Now you can go on, and protect your dogs, you have a plan for any new issues, try to let all the negative energy at this point go, so you don't eat a hole in your stomach*.


Aw. Love this sentiment. Consider me sitting with selzer on this one.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I have a poisonous plan for you. One problem - it costs. 
First of all, provide yourself with labour of looking at "harassment" in a Code of Law. You may need the assistance of a lawer, as you need evidence. Now, it is not a joke: the patterns of his behaviour tell me he could be a sexual maniac. He chooses, for instance, specific time, he anticipates your reactions, he, probably, is very reserved, knows plenty of methods how to make you nuts. Many people believe that maniacs only rape, and than kill. In fact, sexual maniacs are many types, and many of them are under constant scrutiny of the police. Report him. I cannot see any other way to control situation. And, please, don't forget, that harassment on a part of manic is terribly harmful for your mental health. I just can imagine what it likes to live under pressure. Be brave.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

selzer said:


> I think it is done and over with. At this point, we should move on with encouragement and suggestions for dealing with a neighbor who is likely to kill your dog if he gets another chance. An old girl like that can't manage too many kickings and she shouldn't have to.
> 
> I normally like to give neighbors the benefit of the doubt and keep them on my happy-list, and try to go an extra mile to contain my dogs to ensure that they aren't ever going to give them a reason to complain. So my normal advice would be to not do anything that would escalate the already crazy situation. Like calling the police or animal control every time their dog hiccups.
> 
> ...


As always, you say the right things from a point of reason. 

I do believe he was afraid. He was also very angry that I had put two notes on his door about his dogs barking. I think Kayos paid the price for his anger at me. I doubt he has any idea how old she is and I doubt he cares. it is funny, I know all of his dogs names, his cats names, his wife's name, his kid's names and his granduaghter's name. He called me 'lady' and I know he knows my name. 

Why did it take me so long to get Kayos out of there? Because he lost his footing and fell on top of her. I think I said that in the OP but cannot remember. 

She is going to be fine, no permanent damage. Just soft tissue. She was xrayed yesterday when she had her little mass on her foreleg biopsied. Her hip implant was not dislodged. She is bouncing back. 

So we are going to returen to status quo, mind our own business, be nore vigilant about the door, and be ready to ducument for future. 

Life will go on.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, I just ready this, I am so sorry it happened and you have such a neighbor. I hope you move soon as this is the only solution, unfortunately. We had our share of neighbors and GSD discrimination so I know how dealing with morons feels like. Maybe you can move to DC, the most GSD-friendly place on earth.


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## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Just read this myself.
The facts being what they are I can only say that had someone kicked my dog without provication, I would have given it back X 10!!!

Feel for you, truly I do.
Keep doing what youre doing as it's the correct way legaly at this point.

Stay strong and I'm available to handle any further problems for airfair!!!

:hug:


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Thanks Sprout!!! Oksana good to see you on!!! Really miss you. HAve not seen you on FB either.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I miss you, too! I read boards/FB sporadically but not really write too often. On the home stretch with my school, full time+ job and trying to make this new place our home leave not much time for anything else... You need to post more pictures!!!


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