# Potential Breeding..



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

My friend is considering putting together this breeding. A final decision has not been made. Ultimately it is her decision. She just purchased the female recently and is trying to get to know her a little better before she decides who to breed her too. However this combo has been discussed; 

Line-breeding for the progency of Arthos v.h. Houten Klumpke and Gucci vom Lohmanns Heide

Here is video of the male. It is kind of long but I personally enjoyed watching it. Especially towards around the 15.46 mark when he gets into some hidden sleeve bite work. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzOpG-yt6L8

Here is video of the female;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPttYdm4PdY

This post is mostly for fun because this combo may never happen. I just wanted to share it and maybe get some feed back.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I like the dam's pedigree better than the sire. This breeder isn't trying to produce drive are they? this looks like very good Mali, no I mean sport breeding with a couple dogs that are known for insane intensity and edge. Not my cup of tea, but could produce some nice sport or LE dogs.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I only watched a short piece of the video-but I like the female better-the male doesn't take my breath away-the female could do better-know its working lines-but the male just wasn't attractive


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The male is local and the final decision has not been made. The video of the male gets better towards the end. She is looking to produce competitive IPO prospects but does not want to create screamers.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

robk said:


> The male is local and the final decision has not been made. The video of the male gets better towards the end. She is looking to produce competitive IPO prospects but does not want to create screamers.


I say she has an EXCEPTIONAL chance to create "screamers"!!!! I had a litter out of Zender and 2 board members here had pups from that litter....dam was my Ufo daughter....don't get me wrong - we all LOVED the Zender-Basha pups, and the male was AWESOME - but he was a screamer, and Zender was known for it. He had Zenders speed and hitting strength on the long bite too. Good looking dog, would have done V if koered previously and never went back to a conformation show.

Also another line there I have real mixed feelings about....I loved Pike...but not the motherline there....have known several of her progeny and MANY grand progeny....yep - lots of screaming there too.... 

not to mention more linebreeding on the bottom leading to back massing.....

Yep - like Cliff says - probably going to produce extremely driven, hard to settle, mali like dogs.....might be a few less driven ones that would be best training prospects - but what do you do with the manic ones?

Lee


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> I say she has an EXCEPTIONAL chance to create "screamers"!!!! I had a litter out of Zender and 2 board members here had pups from that litter....dam was my Ufo daughter....don't get me wrong - we all LOVED the Zender-Basha pups, and the male was AWESOME - but he was a screamer, and Zender was known for it.
> 
> Also another line there I have real mixed feelings about....I loved Pike...but not the motherline there....have known several of her progeny and MANY grand progeny....yep - lots of screaming there too....
> 
> ...


Lee, thanks for the in sight! I will pass it along. We are just bouncing around different males and this male is a local dog that she likes a lot and has used recently on one of her all Czech females. So far the pups are turning out very nice. We were just talking about how he might cross on this new female.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I'd say the czech lines would be a better cross out to dampen that a bit.....the WG gave more back massing and the screaming is common in the dog that is backmassed upon....

I sort of like the male myself! If placed with the right people who know how to train and cap, I love some of other stuff that came in that Zender litter

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Lee 100%!


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

I have nothing to offer the OP on the question. It's an interesting thread though.

I don't want to thread jack, but may I ask what "back massing" may be? I can kind of guess what a screamer is but couldn't find anything on back massing. 

I'd like to learn more about pedigrees even though it is highly likely I will never breed a dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Back massing is basically line breeding past 5 generations.....both sides here have line breeding, and besides the line breeding, there are other sources of the same male where it is back past 5, so at least 3 times on bottom, and a couple on top....either 5 or 6 times, also has another dog at least 3 times....both dogs very prepotent dogs...

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Are we talking about Yoschy? I like both dogs especially the female looks like she came from Canada.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am pretty sure we are talking about Fero. This litter would be something like 7,7,7-7,7,6,7 on Fero.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Back massing is basically line breeding past 5 generations.....both sides here have line breeding, and besides the line breeding, there are other sources of the same male where it is back past 5, so at least 3 times on bottom, and a couple on top....either 5 or 6 times, also has another dog at least 3 times....both dogs very prepotent dogs...
> 
> Lee


Thanks very much Lee. The more I dig into this subject the deeper it is. I just did some fascinating research on prepotentcy. It's an old habit--I always research words I don't know.

Sorry for the threadjack Robk.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Not picking on Fero specifically - but the heavy backmassing on ANY dog....it is hard to avoid in WGWL with Fero though!!! You will hear about major problems in the ASL from the back massing on Lance of Fran Jo and so many dogs with major health problems....in Quarter horses, major linebreeding on Impressive caused a whole new genetic disease....

But yes - Rob is right....there is alot of Fero...and there are a couple dogs I have known to produce things like EPI....so that is my biggest problem in the cross...the RISK - not a GIVEN - but the higher risk of health problems with this much back massing.

Lee


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Yes I am familiar with impressive. I own a poco timidator daughter. She is HYPP negative thank god. I had the pleasure of spending some time with a wonderful stallion who was hypp positive. Talk about a brick house. Very cool horse. I really enjoyed riding him because he was so powerful and just looked pure cowboy. Well he dropped dead on day and it took his owner a week to break it too me when I asked what happened to him.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Ahh that makes sense, I assumed Yoschy but should have done the extended ped. I like the male wondder if he got sold because he doesnt "look" like stud material..lol. That being said he was fast and I liked the bitework.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> major linebreeding on Impressive caused a whole new genetic disease....


this is for a diff thread but briefly, how? when I posted about line breeding I was told that line breeding doesn't create health problems, it just brings out what's there. as far as I know it does create health problems, just forgot how.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ahh that makes sense, I assumed Yoschy but should have done the extended ped. I like the male wondder if he got sold because he doesnt "look" like stud material..lol. That being said he was fast and I liked the bitework.


No, his owner took a job out of the country and could not bring the dog.


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