# "Sharpness"



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Can someone explain to me what "sharpness" is in a dog and which lines tend towards sharpness?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In simple terms, sharpness usually refers to a dogs threshold to react or bite. That is simplistic but generally what it means. I could list many dogs/lines that have been recognized for having degrees of this trait, but its really up to interpretation of individual.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

the degree of this probably had its purposes at some point in time, but certainly a degree of this as a family pet wouldn't be a good quality. unfortunately some of these lines are being bred and sold as family pets.....actually i wouldn't think this would be a good quality even for a working dog...police, guard dogs probably......

debbie


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The breed wasn't created to be a family pet, but to be a working dog. Some of the jobs that the breed was created to do require a certain sharpness. Thank God there are some "reputable" breeders that understand breed legacy that are still breeding for total GS which does include sharpness in the spectrum of acceptable temperaments.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One other thing, my previous post does not mean that a GS can't be a fantastic pet, because it is and has over the years, but it simply illuminates the fact that the dog is supposed to be a strong dog, to be able to perform the duties it was designed for and changing the temperament to accomodate pet owners is counterproductive to the breed as history has shown us.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

and thats just the problem, there doesn't seem to be a balance of such things......

unfortunately i think alot of breeding practices are experimental and not researched enough, which leaves pet people (or anyone for that matter) trying to work with these imbalances. as we are reading on all these forums, and its not just lack of training or proper socialization.....


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am not saying all breeders are doing this........i know there are alot who are striving for that balance...........but the ones that are experimenting with the wrong matches are not doing the general public any favors...........i feel bad for the people posting every day who are reaching out for help and trying to work with these issues.....


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have two dogs that I would term sharp. 
The "sharp" dog does not need a lot to stimulate aggression/reaction. 
They may be a challenge for a handler who thinks aggression is a 4-letter word.

For example, I took my female to the Working Dog Championships with me last year. We shared a hotel room with a friend. Elf slept on the bed with me. Friend got up in the middle of the night, when returning, brushed Elf's nose (who had been asleep). Elf leapt up and did a bark and hold. Friend was dog savvy enough not to move, Elf immediately quieted when she realized she knew this person.

Both dogs I am refererring to come from the same father. 
I have heard Sagus Busecker Schloss produced a high degree of sharpness.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think my older dog is sharp but I kind of look at sharp and suspicious as similar things so not sure if that is right. But at the same time I would trust her with other dogs and she is extremely tolerant of children


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Interesting. So I would guess since I want a pup to live with our family and be around children, a breeder would want to help me choose a pup that won't be "too" sharp.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think sharpness and suspicion are the same, hard to explain though. However I would not want a dog that is overly suspicious and sharp! There was a good thread on Val's board recently addressing the concept of "sharpness".


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also don't think sharpness and suspicion are the same thing, and also agree it's hard to explain for me anyhow


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

As to my understanding of the breed, I don't want a dog without a degree of sharpness. They would not be able to act as German Shepherd should and would be "dull". The word "sharpness" is often misunderstood and misused, I think. 

A dog in the medium range of sharpness where the he is quick to react to a real threat is desirable, in my mind. An overly sharp or, conversely, a dull dog are not desirable ends of the spectrum. But, this sharpness trait's presence in moderation is something I would hate to see the breed lose.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Might read here and also here.
I have not read through those articles so take them with a grain of salt.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree Samba. I like/want/need a certain degree of sharpness and would probably prefer a bit too much over too little. A dog with weak nerves that is also sharp would not be desirable but a dog with sound nerves that has the correct sharpness, I like that. I think the dog should know when someone/something has crossed the line and be able to react.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, and this is where most people have trouble. They believe that sharp and weak nerves are the same thing. A dog overreacting to stimuli is not doing so because he is sharp, but because he has weak nerves and is afraid. This is very hard for most to understand.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Lisa,
very true...........


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> i am not saying all breeders are doing this........i know there are alot who are striving for that balance...........but the ones that are experimenting with the wrong matches are not doing the general public any favors...........i feel bad for the people posting every day who are reaching out for help and trying to work with these issues.....


 Part of the problem with people who have behavioral issues with their GSDs is not the dog but the owner and lifestyle. It is sort of a shame that GSDs are so popular because they are not an "easy" breed for the average owner. Obviously no one feels their breed is suitable for all homes and certainly no breed is. However, breeds which have been selected to retain more juvenile characteristics, be friendly to strangers and family alike and tolerant of other dogs are in general, easier for the average pet home than a breed which has been selected to be standoffish with strangers, territorial and serious working dogs. People get GSDs and than are surprised that the dogs acts territorial towards people coming over, doesn't always play nice at doggy daycare and generally grows up to act like a mature dog instead of an overgrown puppy.

I love GSDs and I like them to be how GSDs are intended to be which includes a certain amount of territorial behavior and sharpness. If you are saying breeders shouldn't breed a litter unless they are sure the litter will be all ideal in temperament, health and structure...well that's not even remotely realistic. No matter how careful the breeder is, no matter how good the lines are there will always be puppies which fall outside of what is considered ideal. In fact, no dog is ideal and which faults one is willing to live with varies greatly from individual to individual.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

in alot of cases i do agree its the owners and the inviroment do doubt, but i also see gsd's with fearful issues that absolutely have had all the chances to thrive in classes, socialized, home life etc, and still show this trait...........and that is Not something anyone seeks a reputable breeder for.......its a trait that is showing up Way to much..............and that is not the standard.......


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks for the explanations. I especially liked the info about how sharpness is not the same as weak nerves. I am learning a lot here!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

debbiebrown said:


> in alot of cases i do agree its the owners and the inviroment do doubt, but i also see gsd's with fearful issues that absolutely have had all the chances to thrive in classes, socialized, home life etc, and still show this trait...........and that is Not something anyone seeks a reputable breeder for.......its a trait that is showing up Way to much..............and that is not the standard.......


I agree with this in general. There are definitely some temperament issues in GSDs that I have seen. However I would also agree that Shepherds are not necessarily "easy" dogs for the first time dog owner. Sure some are great, but some are not.

The other day we were at PetsMart with our puppy and met another GSD puppy who was showing some issues. The pup was a handsome showline. The owner commented that he got the dog because Mom was so big and calm. This puppy is going to be a major handful. This is not some easy going submissive dog. This is a fairly dominant dog with some sharpness. He was fundamentally friendly but you could see that the techniques that the owner had been given to cope with biting were really not appropriate. 

Now the puppy was 12 weeks and enrolled in puppy class. The man was telling us about all his socialization with people and dogs. However the techniques the owner was given were to my mind ineffective, incomplete, or a little stupid. His concept of socialization was also off and from what I saw he offered no support to his dog merely let people and dogs havea free for all at his puppy (who never acted scared or cried but to me wasn't particularly comfortable either). And to top it off I saw the PetsMart trainer come over, squat over the dog, and rub him into the floor. How these people get their jobs I do not know. 

Anyway my point is, that this owner really has no concept of what kind of dog her has. He is doing the things that are commonly recommended such as classes and socialization. But without any real concept of what those things should look like he is probably doing more harm than good.

I guess you can do all the right things, in all the wrong ways.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sometimes it's easy misinterpret the handling skills of the owner when we just bump into them in a store, walk, etc. I would restrain myself from jumping to any conclusions unless I do know the person and the dog fairly well.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

the type of training and inviroment does have alot to do with each individual puppy.........true that alot of people gerneralize, get a puppy, go through the same process of training as they did with each dog they ever had.........then you get a special needs pup and general training, socializations aren't working due to a weaker temperment..........its a catch 22, and people do need to think outside the box in order to help the special needs dog........the general public are really not prepared to deal with such issues........even a seasoned trainer can be challenged with each individual of this nature........


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

Samba said:


> *They would not be able to act as German Shepherd should and would be "dull".
> *
> A dog ...........*quick to react to a real threat* is desirable, in my mind. An overly sharp or, conversely, a dull dog are not desirable ends of the spectrum. But, this sharpness trait's presence in moderation is something I would hate to see the breed lose.


Absolutely correct. A GSD without controllable traces of "sharpness" is not a GSD!

The breed is not a submissive one but a dominant breed characterized by pride and the urge to protect their territories and their masters. I can not imagine a submissive representative member of this breed...

Sharpness , however, should definitely be controllable by the *alpha* and be directed to situations that require the dog to protect both masters and territories.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think Lisa hit the nail on the head, alot of people confuse sharpness with fear issues....

although to have a mix of extrme sharpness and fear/weak nerve issues would not be a good thing......there needs to be a solid balance........


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Sharbel said:


> Sharpness , however, should definitely be controllable by the *alpha* and be directed to situations that require the dog to protect both masters and territories.



When this trait is present in a solid dog that is devoted and responsive to the owner,... give me more of them!


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## My GSD (May 17, 2010)

Wow great read throughout the whole thread!! Great explanations! This thread is letting me know that this is a hard and dominant breed, it is exactly what I am looking for. The type to protect those who are part of the pack being his territory and the master! Greet greets read.!!


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## jdp2134 (Apr 9, 2008)

sagus was IMO one of the best stud dogs in his time for producing what the GSD should be.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sagus v Busecker Schloss, was definitely a dog that produced sharpness when bred correctly. He also produced hardness. Sagus was not for the faint of heart, coming from the Busecker Schloss kennel and the immortal breeder, Alfred Hahn. Mr. Hahn was one of the greatest breeders of this German Shepherd in Germany's storied history.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gagsd said:


> For example, I took my female to the Working Dog Championships with me last year. We shared a hotel room with a friend. Elf slept on the bed with me. Friend got up in the middle of the night, when returning, brushed Elf's nose (who had been asleep). Elf leapt up and did a bark and hold. Friend was dog savvy enough not to move, Elf immediately quieted when she realized she knew this person.


Sounds like a dog that definetly would not be a good dog for the vast majority of people today.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

holland said:


> I think my older dog is sharp but I kind of look at sharp and suspicious as similar things so not sure if that is right. But at the same time I would trust her with other dogs and she is extremely tolerant of children


I think they are two aspects of the same behavior. Another term I have heard to describe this is "Quick to react" - I have had dogs like this and they can be wonderful pets BUT only if they know your rules and are well controlled.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Sounds like a dog that definetly would not be a good dog for the vast majority of people today.


But cool, and funny, and a blast to have around! Even if she is a picnic short a sandwich.


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