# Intresting blog post..



## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Okay so I am like allways running around blogs.. there is this intresting blog post talking about Deprivation and NILIF.. just wanted to share to everyone...

Deprivation Denise Fenzi


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

:headbang:Wow I wrote interesting wrong twice...


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry I didn't see this earlier - this is a FABULOUS article! I think you will find that the majority of people on this forum preach NILIF with their 'positive' training methods. According to this article, by definition, the 2 are not compatible & I find that extraordinarily interesting. Because I 'bought into' the NILIF when it appeared other methods just weren't working with our dog. This gives me food for thought, for sure. Thank You!

BTW - I'm fussy about spelling. But we all make boo-boo's. Until & unless they ever put Spell-Check here, I'm not gonna worry about a misspelled word - you shouldn't either!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think she's focusing more on deprivation via crate and working with dogs in a more sports setting. Some people feel that by crating/kenneling their dog that when they get out their focus and drive will increase and they will be more prepared to perform. 



> In my mind, it comes down to the underlying motivation of the owner and the degree of discomfort experienced by the dog. If the owner’s motivation is to create active discomfort in order to facilitate work then I am concerned; how concerned is a function of how much discomfort the dog is experiencing. Hunger and lack of social interaction both create active discomfort – snip


Is NILIF Nasty? | Dog Star Daily another article

Then, more about what NILIF really is: Nothing In Life is Free | Dog Star Daily that I really like.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Denise Fenzi is great (check out some of the other articles on her site if you're not familiar with her), but I don't think NILIF has to be about deprivation. Sure, it COULD be, if taken to the extreme, but it needn't be, just like crate training a puppy COULD be abusive but can also be, as she says "a logical and humane answer to the realities of puppies". I do agree with her point about "withholding food, movement and opportunities for social interaction to increase the dog’s motivation to earn those things within a performance context". IMO, If you need to do that in order to get your dog to want to work with you, then there's something wrong with your relationship that deprivation is not going to fix, or at the least, you have the wrong dog for whatever your chosen activity is. 

For me, NILIF is about teaching a dog basic manners, and how to _get_ what they want, not about _depriving_ them of what they want. The more motivated the dog, the faster that process happens. Until my puppies learn that if they break their sit the food bowl comes up off the floor, mealtime is briefly delayed. But that's maybe for a couple of days, at most, and the delay is a few minutes or perhaps just a few seconds - hardly deprivation! And once learned, that's a skill that doesn't come UNLEARNED, so I forever have a dog that knows that mugging me when I'm holding the food bowl doesn't work.

I love her emphasis on teaching play skills to owners, that was something that *I* needed to work on! I hadn't really used play in training before I got Halo, and I wish I'd started with her earlier - that's something I will definitely do with my next puppy. I was fortunate to work with a private trainer who helped me with that. Also, working on handler skills and the person's interactions with the dog rather than just holding the dog responsible. If we're not giving clear signals of what we expect, it's not the dog's fault that they are confused. 



> Sadly, deprivation training is both common and generally accepted in some dog sports with the justification that keeping dogs in a chronic state of deprivation is needed for high end performance dogs. Proponents argue that these dogs must receive all good things through work, lest they decide that work isn’t very interesting if any other options are available. If this is true, it is a rather sad commentary on the state of one’s training – the trainer is unable to make work interesting unless they actively deprive the dog of basic life requirements. Taken to an extreme, one wonders if a performance dog has any innate value at all beyond what it can do for another; much like a motorcycle that is well taken care of and highly regarded but without rights of its own.


:thumbup:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jean, I've read the first article you linked to before, but not the second one. This is great:



> Dogs do what works. If a particular behavior in a particular situation tends to result in Good Things For Dogs, then the dog will probably stick to that behavior. If it doesn’t, the dog will probably abandon the behavior. Set up your dog’s life so that good behavior consistently pays off for the dog and bad behavior does not, and you should have a delightfully obedient and well-mannered pet. Your dog learns that the best way to get what he wants is to look at you and offer the canine version of saying please. It’s a simple principle, but not necessarily an easy one to implement.





> I find NILIF an excellent device for teaching people this discipline. For some mysterious reason that perhaps a cognitive psychologist could explain, this simple rule really seems to help people to remember that they’re always training. It gets them in the habit of consistently asking for good behavior and refusing to accept poor behavior. In other words, it takes people a long way towards learning the personal discipline necessary to train a well-mannered dog.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

While I don't believe that NILIF for my dog is deprivation, I do see what she is trying to say. In my specific case, yeah, he can't eat until he sits, relaxes and waits for my release. That's just manners so he isn't everywhere when I'm putting down food. Same goes with waiting at passage-ways (crates, doors, stairs), waiting to approach other people and dogs, so he doesn't sprint ahead and get into something that _could_ warrant a correction. It's more of a fail-safe to get the dog to look to you as "are we good? great. thanks."

I also give him plenty of freedom, everywhere, and he knows to come back to me for what he wants - food, toys, protection. It's not free. It has to come from somewhere - the handler. Crating the dog when he doesn't listen or work seems more like an easy fix - nothing that I would do. I'll likely remove myself than the dog, yeah he can be crated, but I will stay in the room for his sake, for the "paid" interaction, him being in his crate where he should be, and me being in my chair where I should be. It's really not his fault that I suck as a trainer, so why punish him by depriving him of my presence, food, toys? It's my fault for not picking up his clear signals, it allows me to sit and think while he sits and thinks and enjoys his chew or treat. 

I think the article may be directed more at those who use extreme forms of NILIF. I must admit at one point, I was confused by NILIF, and considered not feeding him if he didn't perform. I was quickly corrected and even realized beforehand that is probably wrong. Perhaps she wrote this in order to correct the wrong NILIF mentality. Well, nothing in your life is free, either. Society has drilled that into your head for a reason.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yeah, like with anything, people can do extreme with the NILIF - and I always tell people I don't do the isolation thing, please ask, tell me how you will do this (when sending fosters to forever homes) so that I know they are not reading it at that level of severity. 

Like those quotes from that article SO much, yeah, everything is training. I learned this working in an intensive treatment unit with adjudicated male adolescents - every little interaction was counseling (training)! Dogs bite, but those boys could throw a 40# bucket of detergent at you without blinking an eye.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have done the Social Isolation thing on the K9deb NILIF link with one dog, for almost two days. It worked like magic with Cassidy, who was 20 weeks old when we got her, with no training or manners. She was only my second dog, and Sneaker, my first GSD was really easy so I was completely unprepared for the force of nature that was Cassidy - she was my crash course in dog training. It's not something I would do as a lifestyle, but it's not intended to be used as a lifestyle anyway.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Cool replies guys! I like seeing every body's opinion! I was a gone for a while because I had problems with my computer because a stinking Chatzum virus thingy.

Olivers mama awe thanks I worry alot about my spelling all the time because I speak two languages, and I have trouble switching from back and fourth. Especially times when I am chatting with two people at the same time in two diffrent languages!

Anyways Unfortunatly I see lots of people where I'm at using extreme deprivation as a tool to have better results. I don't consider deprivation NILIF but with some people NILIF gets out of hand and then become deprivation. 

In a sport setting I see nothing wrong crating a dog before, between, and after.But there is some people (I know unfortunatly) does this constantly every day, even for tiny training sessions. 

At the beggining I did used NILIF all the time, but I noticed that it was just too much. Now I do leave him toys around (low value toys). He does have to earn high value toys, but when it comes to other things like his meal, or walks sometimes I do ask him to for something in return, and sometimes I not. I don't want to nag him all the time. For my dog that would be too stressful. I just only make shure that he is behaving the way I want if I don't want him to ask him anything that means no jumping around, and being calm.

If you guys read Karen Pryor's Reaching the Animal Mind book she wrote about food deprivation, and for her it was "out of the question". There is something wrong with a trainer if an animal doesn't respond, without deprivation. Believe me my cats and dogs can be stuffed but just to hear the click go off they will do anything. 

When it comes to a dog that have some problems I would do 100% NILIF, and I would keep the dog crated or in a pen when not supervised to prevent, but this would only be the beggining. With time, and when the problems start going away I would then expect less from that dog.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Denise Fenzi is great


So true!!!!


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