# I Hate To Say It, But....



## bethany.cole2013

For the people that advised against doing a co-own arrangement with the female Viernheimi Ranie that I asked about her pedigree....YOU WERE RIGHT! This co-own arrangement is null and void as of 5pm tomorrow afternoon. After a falling out between the "breeder" and I over her offering me her male that she had and then only finding out that he had fertility problems and she had lied to me about other things, as well as, Ranie having nerve problems around my fiance'....well let's just say that I don't appreciate being lied to so the arrangement is coming to a screeching halt tomorrow afternoon. Don't get me wrong; Ranie is a wonderful female for a lady only. But, she is way too nervy around men and makes me wonder how she even earned that UKC championship title if she was judged by any man. So, I am looking at possibly purchasing a really nice sable working line male to start out with some personal protection ventures that I'd like to learn in. I have also been talking with a trainer that is about an hour away about taking a pup to him for training if I do get one. Let's just say that I will forever be checking the reliability of my sources from now on and not being so quick to trust. I should have known and should have followed the advice of more knowledgeable people here, but I trusted someone that I obviously should not've. Forgive me for the rant, just figured I would let the smart ones know that they were right and people should definitely be following their advice.


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## onyx'girl

she probably saw you coming from a mile away...Glad you could null and void your contract. 
Hope your next experience with a mentor is much better....experience is what it takes sometimes to learn...sorry yours was a negative one! Hope Ranie can find her forever place.
And I also wish you luck with the sable male!! Love my sable boy :wub:


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## bethany.cole2013

onyx'girl said:


> she probably saw you coming from a mile away...Glad you could null and void your contract.
> Hope your next experience with a mentor is much better....experience is what it takes sometimes to learn...sorry yours was a negative one! Hope Ranie can find her forever place.
> And I also wish you luck with the sable male!! Love my sable boy :wub:


Thank you. It's nothing definite with him yet, but I am going to look at him tomorrow and spend some time with the litter and then if I like him put down a deposit on him. The litter is only 6 weeks Thursday so not quite ready to leave momma yet. At least she isn't letting the babies go at 6 weeks like a lot of breeders around here have done. I also have asked to see copies of the parents' OFA hip/elbow scores and they are willing to bring their trainer out tomorrow and have the trainer work with both parents in front of me so that I can see how they work and then I'll go from there. Sables are my favorite color next to blacks.


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## onyx'girl

Do you want to share the pedigree?


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## bethany.cole2013

onyx'girl said:


> Do you want to share the pedigree?


Lol well I don't have the pedigree as of yet. They aren't on the web and are old-fashioned in a way, so none of their dogs are on the pedigree database. I'll make sure to post it when I get it and have it added to the pedigree database. I'll keep you guys in suspense until then  I'll post pictures of the litter in just a bit, though.


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## bethany.cole2013

The second picture down is the little boy that I'm primarily interested in. The first picture is the only other male in the litter and is a lighter colored sable.


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## Anja vom Spokane

That last photo, is that a red crested sable? LOL
.


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## bethany.cole2013

Anja vom Spokane said:


> That last photo, is that a red crested sable? LOL
> .



Lol you like the chickens, too?


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## carmspack

haaahh , now I can say it , the female you had looked very tired , old beyond her years --- slow down young Bethany --- who are the parents of the pup you are interested in.

also chickens (birds) and young pups -- look out for and treat for coccidia .


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## volcano

Those pups look fluffy! I doubt they are working line though without a pedigree. Do they have ofa or are they just gonna demonstrate that the parents are athletic?


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## Maddi'smomma

volcano said:


> Those pups look fluffy! I doubt they are working line though without a pedigree. Do they have ofa or are they just gonna demonstrate that the parents are athletic?


The OP didn't state that there was no pedigree, only that it is not online.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm sorry this experience didn't work out for you.. Sad for you and sad for the dog

I was one who said go for it, I have always had good experiences with my co owns (two) but I have heard alot of negatives from others.

Moving on, YES, while cute those puppies can hng with the chickens, make sure if you get him, to have him tested for coccidia, puppies eating chicken poo, which is pretty normal as puppies can be pigs, chickens carry alot of yucky stuff in their poo.

Good luck I hope everything works out


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## bethany.cole2013

Thank you for the advice, Carmen. How do you go about treating coccidia and what should I look out for? I've never dealt with it before. Also, as far as there not being a pedigree, they will come with a big puppy packet with their AKC paperwork, a bag of their puppy food, their shot record, deworming record, clear statement of health from their vet, my copy of the written health guarantee, and copies of the parents' pedigrees. I think I said earlier in the post that both parents have been OFA'd and I've asked to see the reports from where they were OFA'd and the trainer is coming to actually work them with a helper and allow me to see them work. I'm loving how the breeder is being honest and open with everything and isn't acting like they are trying to hide anything. I'm supposed to go over there and spend a couple hours with them in about an hour or so, so I have to get offline and go get dressed. Wish me luck


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## JakodaCD OA

bethany , it's a stool tested sample..Something you would probably normally do when you take the puppy in for it's first exam...Coccidia causes wicked diarhea in most cases as well, can be hard to get rid of , but meds do work..

Just mention the 'chicken thing" when you vet him..


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## bethany.cole2013

Thank you. I just got back from spending some time with them all. They are truly great people. Both parents have OFA good hips and elbows and were tested DM clear. The breeders didn't have any problem showing me the certifications and paperwork on each dog. They were an overall clean environment with the puppies being raised inside around the family. I really really like the little guy that I originally thought I would like; the second picture down of the darkest sable boy. He is very friendly and loves to chase a ball and rope toy. So......I placed the deposit down! I'm also very satisfied with what their guarantee entails. Hips and elbows guaranteed for two years and free from all genetic diseases for life. I pick him up in two weeks! I'm so excited. She did say that she would keep me in plenty of pictures of him and how he's doing over the next two weeks and I'll do the same for you guys. Now the difficult part of coming up with a name!


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## 1sttimeforgsd

The waiting is going to be a hard one for you also, gorgeous puppy, congrats. :wub:


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## bethany.cole2013

1sttimeforgsd said:


> The waiting is going to be a hard one for you also, gorgeous puppy, congrats. :wub:


Oh it killed me not to be able to bring him home with me today, but I know it's what is best. I'm smitten.


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## carmspack

what is the name of the sire and what is the name of the dam. I would never buy a dog not knowing the genetics -- did they give you that ? If the pedigree comes with the puppy pack , or is it the registration ? that comes with the puppy pack.

ps -- remember the shipping for the magazines


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## msvette2u

I'm so sorry - I had high hopes for the co-own and think, if done right, can be a wonderful thing.
Unfortunately, sometimes breeders just want a dog out of their hair while not giving up total ownership, and it turns out badly for all.
We co-owned a male (intact of course) Keeshond quite a while back and it was not a great deal at all for us, and it was the same type thing. Although a sweet and loving boy, if not tethered to one of us constantly (and even sometimes while tethered) he'd pee all over my house, having never been raised or living in one ever in his short young life.
Not fun


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## carmspack

it could not have worked out -- I was one of the nay-sayers . You don't give your "valuable" female just entering into an appropriate breeding age to a complete stranger !


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## bethany.cole2013

Carmen, the registration application for AKC as well as copies of the parents' pedigrees will be in the puppy packet. I would have to get with the breeder again to get the official AKC names of the two of them. I'll send you a PM in just a moment, Carmen. Also, I realize that everyone will have differing opinions on co-owns and if they work out or not but that isn't the purpose of this thread. I just wanted to let the nay-sayers know that I should have followed their advice.


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## qbchottu

I was a naysayer to your co-ownership (as I know of the breeder and know what they are about), and I will give you another bit of advice now: don't put a deposit down or take a puppy home without dissecting and exploring the pedigree of the pup FIRST. If you don't have the experience to read pedigrees, get feedback and insight from those that do....


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## carmspack

excellent qbchottu ! that is exactly what I am getting at --- bethany came on here to be mentored and keeps rushing into situations -- oh to have such excitement and enthusiasm -- you sure will learn from experience -- but --

also this -- because the OP wants to eventually breed , the reason for her learning everything that she can -- then you do not start out with a MALE . that is so limiting . Take is slow , when you are ready , find the best female possible . that would be my advice . Even before that know in your mind exactly what you feel is ideal and have a goal.


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## qbchottu

Agree Carmen...I was under the impression that she wanted to go the route of a breeder. Good breeders start with solid, strong females with strong bitch lines. Most breeders keep a few exceptional males (if any). 

Slow down OP! You are putting the cart before the horse....EVERY puppy is cute, but keep your eventual goals in mind before jumping to a decision you might regret later.


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## Liesje

Well you CAN learn a great deal about the breed and breeding owning a breeding male, but yeah you can't really start a breeding program that way. Either way, I would not be picking a possible breeding prospect without knowing the pedigree first. Not saying this breeder is bad or hiding something, but usually that's what I'm looking at before I even contact the breeder.


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## bethany.cole2013

I appreciate the insight very much. What my ideal situation would be is to start out competing first and then breed later. I didn't go into this litter wanting a male, that's just the way it turned out.


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## martemchik

Yeah I've seen co-ownership of puppies...from day one (8 weeks) where the breeder wants co-ownership of a possible breeding/show prospect but doesn't have the room for it or the person purchasing it is interested in getting their name into the breeding mix. But I've never heard of a breeder selling half the rights to a dog once its "breedable" and ready to pop out puppies. It makes no sense...they've raised the dog, did all the work and now want to get some money just to retain breeding rights anyways? Confusing situation.

I hope all works out with this male for you OP.


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## cliffson1

Sorry it didnt work out.....all advice is not the same.....good luck in the future.


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## msvette2u

bethany.cole2013 said:


> I appreciate the insight very much. What my ideal situation would be is to start out competing first and then breed later. I didn't go into this litter wanting a male, that's just the way it turned out.


I think you'd be better off to keep your long term goals in mind and not making hasty decisions, if you want to eventually start a breeding program.
If you wanted a female, for instance, don't go get puppy fever and impulsively get a puppy, wait for the female from a good breeding program, from a breeder who can mentor you along the way.
That said, I hope things work out for you, since it's been done already


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## martemchik

With as long as dogs live...it is kind of rushing to get a dog and commit to a 12 year thing if your eventual plan is to breed. But that said...I think learning about breeding and the breed in general is best from the side of a potential stud owner. You'll train, trial, and figure out what bitch owners are looking for in a male. You'll really grasp what the reputable breeders are looking for and what the ones that are doing questionable things are looking for.

Joining a club you'll get in with people that can guide you, and you'll be able to really study pedigrees of a variety of dogs. It will be nice for your goal to be "I want such and such person to think of my dog highly enough to ask me for a stud" rather than "I can't wait to breed my bitch based on someone else's questionable expertise." Just some things to think about.


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## Lucy Dog

Looking back at your other thread... you pretty much said you didn't want a puppy or to deal with any puppy issues. A week later you've got a deposit on a puppy? What changed in 7 days?

I'm not trying to knock or insult you, but I really think you need to just slow down and figure out what you want and to stop just jumping into things on a whim. You don't even know the pedigree of these puppies (right?), but they were cute and you liked them. All puppies are cute! Slow down. There's no shortage of puppies and good breeders. There's no shortage of dogs in general. Take your time and figure out what you really want.


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## bethany.cole2013

Lucy Dog said:


> Looking back at your other thread... you pretty much said you didn't want a puppy or to deal with any puppy issues. A week later you've got a deposit on a puppy? What changed in 7 days?
> 
> I'm not trying to knock or insult you, but I really think you need to just slow down and figure out what you want and to stop just jumping into things on a whim. You don't even know the pedigree of these puppies (right?), but they were cute and you liked them. All puppies are cute! Slow down. There's no shortage of puppies and good breeders. There's no shortage of dogs in general. Take your time and figure out what you really want.



Just to be precise it was a lot longer than 7 days. More like a couple months. And I've come to realize that no matter what the age, any dog can and very well may have issues if the breeder doesn't know what they are doing. I did see the pedigrees of both parents and the dam goes back to Mink on her dam side. I've been reading enough on the pedigree evaluation threads to know just enough about lines to know that these puppies come from working lines. I figure I might as well get a puppy and have it trained the way that I want it to be trained. I will also know for sure how the dog has been handled, versus how my co-own female was, she was very nervy as time went on and I don't know if it was genetic or just how she had been handled. Another con of owning an adult dog. Now that my job has slowed down and I'm also doing the work that I am capable of doing at home, I've got a lot more time to properly house train a puppy.


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## carmspack

" I didn't go into this litter wanting a male, that's just the way it turned out." I can see it all now -- 5 months from now a super-perfect female will turn up and then you will have to get her . As to the "that's just the way it turned out" hmm , you are going to be less impulsive in breeding decisions .

So what attracted you to the litter ? 

I know , you held the dog and your heart melted --- but was there a critical look at them . Did the male you ended up get a recommendation from the breeder or was it your heart-choice .


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## bethany.cole2013

carmspack said:


> " I didn't go into this litter wanting a male, that's just the way it turned out." I can see it all now -- 5 months from now a super-perfect female will turn up and then you will have to get her . As to the "that's just the way it turned out" hmm , you are going to be less impulsive in breeding decisions .
> 
> So what attracted you to the litter ?
> 
> I know , you held the dog and your heart melted --- but was there a critical look at them . Did the male you ended up get a recommendation from the breeder or was it your heart-choice .


I'm not even going to reply to this.


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## qbchottu

Actually Carmen asked some valid questions. What was it about *this* particular litter that attracted you to it? WHY this combo? WHY this breeder? How does this particular breeding fit with your intentions and goals for the dog? How rationally and methodically have you thought about this? Why are you making impulsive decisions when you yourself have admitted your previous actions have turned out badly? 

All puppies are cute. Everybody feels some sweet heartfelt connection with a pup in the litter, and they just _have_ to get that particular pup. But the truth is that there are lots of cute pups, and lots of breeders. *Think* rationally and logically - really delve into this decision. There is no co-owner to return this pup to - are you ready for the responsibility? And have you researched the mating properly to give yourself the best odds possible for the next 10yrs+? You mentioned poor genetics and spookiness in the co-owned female - have you looked at the pedigree to ensure that this pup has good odds for solid temperament and nerve? What if this particular combo carries risks for temperament or behavioral issues that you are not ready to deal with? Would you know what to look for? Food for thought...


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## carmspack

or hip problems --


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## bethany.cole2013

qbchottu said:


> Actually Carmen asked some valid questions. What was it about *this* particular litter that attracted you to it? WHY this combo? WHY this breeder? How does this particular breeding fit with your intentions and goals for the dog? How rationally and methodically have you thought about this? Why are you making impulsive decisions when you yourself have admitted your previous actions have turned out badly?
> 
> All puppies are cute. Everybody feels some sweet heartfelt connection with a pup in the litter, and they just _have_ to get that particular pup. But the truth is that there are lots of cute pups, and lots of breeders. *Think* rationally and logically - really delve into this decision. There is no co-owner to return this pup to - are you ready for the responsibility? And have you researched the mating properly to give yourself the best odds possible for the next 10yrs+? You mentioned poor genetics and spookiness in the co-owned female - have you looked at the pedigree to ensure that this pup has good odds for solid temperament and nerve? What if this particular combo carries risks for temperament or behavioral issues that you are not ready to deal with? Would you know what to look for? Food for thought...


The answers to most of these questions I have already addressed in previous posts on the thread. As far as hip problems go, both parents were OFA certified to have BOTH good hips and elbows, as well as the grandparents to the puppies. The worst OFA scored dog was very well back in the pedigree on the sire side and it was scored OFA fair. I'm not expecting hip problems because the puppy will not be exercised really hard prior to turning one year old and he will not ever be kept in an overweight condition. The genetics are good for his hips and elbows and with me doing all the right things to minimize hip problems, the likelihood of him developing hip problems are rare. I have talked with the trainer and breeder and also owners of previous puppies from this litter. The litter attracted me, because of one, the potential for doing what I want to do competitively (obedience and personal protection). This is not an impulsive decision. I still have two weeks that if anything changes my mind then I can always get my deposit back. The breeder is a very responsible breeder. They have OFA'd and DM tested both the sire and dam to this litter. They have also competed in some obedience trials and are going to be finished with their titles in both obedience and protection this spring. They offer one of the best health guarantees that I have ever heard of around my area, they don't hide any type of information from me, allowed to me come and spend almost all day with them and the litter/parents, they made it a point to specifically call their trainer out and have him work with both dogs in front of me. They made the recommendation on the pup that I placed the deposit on. He's calm, friendly but also has good drives and should do well with what I am wanting to do and my lifestyle. I didn't want anything overly active, high strung and with high prey drives. I wanted something that could very easily be a family pet and then also do very well in the obedience ring and personal protection sports. The sable coloring and cuteness factor is just icing on the cake. I fell in love with all of the siblings in the litter, but you didn't see me putting down deposits on all of the remaining available puppies. That would have been a very impulsive and cuteness factor only influenced decision. I really don't understand why I am constantly being questioned over the puppy that I have chosen. YES it's no secret that I have made a wrong decision before in getting the co-own female. But, I have also LEARNED from that mistake and it will not be made again. I'm not going to forget about that lesson any time soon, so you guys can quit making me feel guilty for getting the dog that I want. As far as the possibility for this puppy having nerve problems, I highly doubt that he will. Both parents have solid nerves and are great dogs that are also great family companions. This litter had everything to offer me and was actually recommended by a guy that I had talked to while I was in a feed store. This breeder is able to sell their pups by word of mouth. They have no need for a website and they also have no need to advertise. I realize that this little puppy can still develop nerve problems, but if he does I'm willing to work with him and see if they can be trained out. If not, he will be neutered and he will stay with me for the rest of his life as a personal pet and not a competition dog. As far as the nerve problems go on the female that I was co-owning, I can't say for sure whether they were truly genetic or if they were "man-made" problems with her nerves. That's the bad thing about the breeder that I was co-owning her with. There were a lot of things that were left out by her and I was left in the dark on a lot of things and I was also lied to. Lesson learned, so can we please move on from that? Now, the breeder of this puppy has also welcomed me to come out and see the litter at any time over these next couple of weeks and if I want to change my mind there will be no hard feelings and my deposit will be refunded. She is also keeping me supplied with plenty of pictures of him over the next few weeks, so all in all this is already a much better experience than what I previously have had. This breeder has also offered to give me any advice and help with him once I get him home if I ever need them.


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## qbchottu

Who is the breeder, and what is the pedigree? Do the dam and sire have working titles or accomplishments in the venues you wish to participate in? How have nerve and stability been demonstrated?


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## Lucy Dog

Bethany... nothing to add. Everything's been said, so no reason to repeat. In the end, it sounds like you've made your mind up and most likely no one's going to change it.

But please use paragraph breaks when you type out these responses. It's very difficult to read and follow what you're saying when everything looks like one big run on sentence. 

It makes it a lot easier for people to follow when reading.


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## RubyTuesday

As people have said several times, *all* puppies are cute. They really are. People should always look to a breeder's adults & especially the adult offspring if possible when seeking a pup. 

Bethany, I understand that you're feeling a bit pushed, nagged & criticized but I don't think that's the intent of any of the comments made. People are simply concerned that your enthusiasm & heart are getting ahead of making well reasoned, sensible decisions. 

*I realize that this little puppy can still develop nerve problems, but if he does I'm willing to work with him and see if they can be trained out. If not, he will be neutered and he will stay with me for the rest of his life as a personal pet and not a competition dog.* Your heart is in the right place but a dog (or bitch) with nerve problems should not be bred even if the weak nerves are successfully 'trained out'. Faulty genetics are present regardless of training which can only mask or manage nerve problems, not eliminate them. 

IF, on careful consideration this breeder & pup are right for you, go for it. I don't think anyone feels differently, they're simply worried that you're making an impetuous decision that might again put you in a bad situation. Anyone who's posted or read here any length of time has repeatedly seen people make the same mistake(s) over & Over & OVER again. Urging caution isn't snarky. Ultimately, it can benefit both people & dogs.


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## bethany.cole2013

RubyTuesday said:


> As people have said several times, *all* puppies are cute. They really are. People should always look to a breeder's adults & especially the adult offspring if possible when seeking a pup.
> 
> Bethany, I understand that you're feeling a bit pushed, nagged & criticized but I don't think that's the intent of any of the comments made. People are simply concerned that your enthusiasm & heart are getting ahead of making well reasoned, sensible decisions.
> 
> *I realize that this little puppy can still develop nerve problems, but if he does I'm willing to work with him and see if they can be trained out. If not, he will be neutered and he will stay with me for the rest of his life as a personal pet and not a competition dog.* Your heart is in the right place but a dog (or bitch) with nerve problems should not be bred even if the weak nerves are successfully 'trained out'. Faulty genetics are present regardless of training which can only mask or manage nerve problems, not eliminate them.
> 
> IF, on careful consideration this breeder & pup are right for you, go for it. I don't think anyone feels differently, they're simply worried that you're making an impetuous decision that might again put you in a bad situation. Anyone who's posted or read here any length of time has repeatedly seen people make the same mistake(s) over & Over & OVER again. Urging caution isn't snarky. Ultimately, it can benefit both people & dogs.



I realize that a dog with nerve problems shouldn't be bred. That's why I also said that if he *happens* to have nerve problems he will be neutered and spend his life as a personal companion only and not a breeding or competition dog. I know that's now how it came out typed and forgive me for the misunderstanding. I went and spent another couple of hours with the breeder and dogs today and they were all the same as the initial visit. Of course I loved all of the litter, but the little guy I placed a deposit on was absolutely glued to my hip and we spent some time playing with them and him chasing around the chickens lol. I guess its a good thing that I don't have chickens


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## JakodaCD OA

I honestly hope he works out for you, I saw the ped posted for critique, and I'm sorry but I agree with the other posters, I just don't see anything that makes any sense, rather a mish mash of this and that

Not saying it's a 'bad' thing, I personally, just wouldn't for myself, be anyway interested in a puppy from that litter if I wanted to do any type of competition stuff. Again, not to say they aren't capable, If I have something specific in mind for a future puppy, I am going to go to a breeder who's producing that and has the pedigree behind it. 

You shouldn't even be "thinking" if he turns out with problems, (behaviorial) , you should be thinking "this is going to be a sound stable dog because I know what's behind it"..You can't train out "genetics", you can manage them, but they'll never be trained out..

I guess, and it's none of my business or anyone elses, and you don't have to answer, is price a factor? Are you making this choice with your heart and not your head?? Because there are sooo many really good breeders on this board that you could get the puppy of your dreams from.

I do wish you luck, I also think people are just concerned that your saying you want one thing, but go with something that's seemingly not a good fit for what you want.


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## bethany.cole2013

JakodaCD OA said:


> I honestly hope he works out for you, I saw the ped posted for critique, and I'm sorry but I agree with the other posters, I just don't see anything that makes any sense, rather a mish mash of this and that
> 
> Not saying it's a 'bad' thing, I personally, just wouldn't for myself, be anyway interested in a puppy from that litter if I wanted to do any type of competition stuff. Again, not to say they aren't capable, If I have something specific in mind for a future puppy, I am going to go to a breeder who's producing that and has the pedigree behind it.
> 
> You shouldn't even be "thinking" if he turns out with problems, (behaviorial) , you should be thinking "this is going to be a sound stable dog because I know what's behind it"..You can't train out "genetics", you can manage them, but they'll never be trained out..
> 
> I guess, and it's none of my business or anyone elses, and you don't have to answer, is price a factor? Are you making this choice with your heart and not your head?? Because there are sooo many really good breeders on this board that you could get the puppy of your dreams from.
> 
> I do wish you luck, I also think people are just concerned that your saying you want one thing, but go with something that's seemingly not a good fit for what you want.



I posted on the other thread that this wasn't the pedigree of the puppy that this thread is pertaining to. It was from a different litter that I walked away from for various reasons. I'm going to be brutally honest with you; of course price is a factor, but a *very small* factor. In my opinion, someone that tells you the price isn't a factor at all is pulling the wool over your eyes. If I could afford and justify dropping $5k on a puppy I would. But, I just can't justify spending that much on a puppy from a breeder that all you are paying for is their name that they are known for. I still have a couple of weeks to make my final decision on this puppy and if I find something better for a very reasonable price, I would consider getting my deposit back on this puppy and going with a different one.


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## onyx'girl

Spending 5K on a pup is foolish. That is over double the going price for a working line(unless it has had training invested)
If I were going to invest in a pup/possibly for breeding, I would research the pedigree's/lines and find one that I'd want my foundation to be. It may take me a year or more doing that research, but in the end, at least I'd know my direction.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree, spending that much on a puppy is foolish, and unnecessary..

Bethany, didn't see your other post before I posted here, re: Pedigree


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## carmspack

this " I still have a couple of weeks to make my final decision on this puppy and if I find something better for a very reasonable price" -- you don't "need" the pup you want the pup. A pup . WAIT until you have the funds then to find that "something better" .

When you get a pup you don't settle .


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## Capone22

You can get a GREAT working line stable puppy with good genetics for $1200. No where near $5000. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## bethany.cole2013

Well I got an interesting email this morning to say the least. The "breeder" that was doing the co own with Ranie with me emailed to say that she had her hips xray'd and the vet estimated that OFA would rate them as mild to severe dysplasia. And I'm really surprised that she wasn't in pain when she was with me, because those xrays were absolutely horrible! The femoral head was nowhere near being in the pocket where it should have been and her hips were positioned right and everything! Also, the femoral heads were slightly too large to have been able to fit in the pockets even if they were in the pockets. Needless to say this girl needs to be spayed and this "breeder" needs someone to tell her to stop what she's doing and get all her dogs spayed/neutered for their sake.


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## wolfstraum

OK - when you buy a puppy from a breeder (and not for 5K either...only a few very big commercial kennels with major marketing efforts sell pups for big prices!) you are NOT wasting your money because they are 'well known'...they are well known because they probably produce something worth having! The reason they have a "name" is because dogs from their kennel work and title and/or produce dogs who work and title....I know someone who just bought a pup for $1200 from a World level male and a IPO3 Nationally shown female who has produced titled and LE dogs....a pup you would be very happy to have as a first dog based on teh pedigree and credentials....the breeder is NOT well known....I know of another litter coming from Drago Patriot and a titled Ufo granddaughter (in NY) and those should be very nice quality puppies...and less than $2000 probably....he is taking reservations soon...so do some research and don't start off from a negative position...get the best prospect you can find - not the cheapest or most convenient.

Lee


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## bethany.cole2013

wolfstraum said:


> OK - when you buy a puppy from a breeder (and not for 5K either...only a few very big commercial kennels with major marketing efforts sell pups for big prices!) you are NOT wasting your money because they are 'well known'...they are well known because they probably produce something worth having! The reason they have a "name" is because dogs from their kennel work and title and/or produce dogs who work and title....I know someone who just bought a pup for $1200 from a World level male and a IPO3 Nationally shown female who has produced titled and LE dogs....a pup you would be very happy to have as a first dog based on teh pedigree and credentials....the breeder is NOT well known....I know of another litter coming from Drago Patriot and a titled Ufo granddaughter (in NY) and those should be very nice quality puppies...and less than $2000 probably....he is taking reservations soon...so do some research and don't start off from a negative position...get the best prospect you can find - not the cheapest or most convenient.
> 
> Lee



Okay and all of those places are way too far for me to drive and I refuse to put a new puppy through the added stresses of going through shipping. They already have enough stress placed on them going from mom and litter to a strange house they don't know with none of their siblings or mom.


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## Chris Wild

Lee's examples aren't location specific. Pretty much anywhere in the country you could get 2 show line pups, or 3-4 working line pups, from titled and fully health certified parents, for the $5000 you quoted.

Like others have said, I would never, ever buy a puppy without seeing the pedigree first. The pedigree is the genetic blueprint of the dog and provides clues as to how the dog will turn out when mature, both physically and mentally, and if there are any warning signs of problems in either of those areas it will likely show them too. It's nice that the breeder is providing a puppy packet that will include the pedigree, but most of the information in that puppy pack, particularly the pedigree of the litter, ought to be made available to interested purchasers before they put a deposit on a pup.

For someone interested in breeding, this is especially important. If you have hopes of this pup being a breeding dog, make sure everything is stacked in favor of that before buying a pup. Even if you consider this pup to be a learning dog and don't plan to breed it in the future, it will still be with you for the next 12-14 years. A well bred dog is more likely to be a sound, healthy companion for that timeframe and also better able to provide you with a better learning experience. If you can't afford a well bred pup from a good breeder, or haven't yet been able to find one that fits your distance constraints, than wait.

It never pays to be in a hurry, cut corners and do things on impulse. Not when buying a dog, not when raising and training it, and certainly not when breeding. An important lesson to learn, and again especially important given your goals of becoming a breeder.


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## martemchik

I think if you're looking for a pet...that you'll show and trial...the pedigree matters less. But since you're thinking about breeding in the future, it pays to do the due diligence and research before you get the pup. Remember, you'll have this dog for 12 years and although you'll probably be able to get another one when you know more, you might be limited as to how many you get after that.

Then you have to wait for the dog to pass before you get the dog you truly want with the genetics to breed. You're getting one person's opinion on the pedigree. A person that is trying to SELL you the dog. Yes, the trainer is there as well, but the trainer is probably a very good friend of the breeder and really isn't going to talk about the deficiencies in the pedigree or the dog.

I'm getting a puppy in 8 weeks...I trust the breeder with their pedigree and mating decision but I've also asked people on this board for their input (although some haven't answered) and I've done my own looking around. If I don't get a female out of this litter, I'll start searching again and when I find that right dog I'll get it.


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## bethany.cole2013

So after doing much much thinking and as cute as he may be, everyone is right. I would be doing my personal goals no favors by getting him. I've decided that I will let the breeder know this and will get my deposit back. I've also contacted Nick and will be saving up to get a puppy from him in the coming fall when he is expecting a new litter.


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## DunRingill

about shipping: my last 3 dogs were shipped to me as babies, from California to NJ. Didn't bother them in the least!


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## bethany.cole2013

DunRingill said:


> about shipping: my last 3 dogs were shipped to me as babies, from California to NJ. Didn't bother them in the least!


That's just my preference, because they're put under stress and are stressed enough switching to different homes and I just choose to minimize the amount of stress my dogs are put under if I can.


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## Chris Wild

I've shipped many pups, and received shipped pups too, and never had a problem. They pop out at the airport spunky and ready to go. At least pups with good nerves do. Even the ones with ok but less than bombproof nerves are fine. 

How a dog deals with stress, pups included, shows it's nerves. If they are solid, shipping is no worry. If they are not, and the pup freaks out then... well you know right away from day 1 that it isn't a breeding candidate. Just sayin'.


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## Smithie86

Chris Wild said:


> I've shipped many pups, and received shipped pups too, and never had a problem. They pop out at the airport spunky and ready to go. At least pups with good nerves do. Even the ones with ok but less than bombproof nerves are fine.
> 
> How a dog deals with stress, pups included, shows it's nerves. If they are solid, shipping is no worry. If they are not, and the pup freaks out then... well you know right away from day 1 that it isn't a breeding candidate. Just sayin'.


Well said.


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## cliffson1

I agree Chris and Sue, if I thought a puppy that came from Europe or the Americas would be negatively affected by shipping stress, that would not be a puppy I would consider to own.


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## carmspack

"I think if you're looking for a pet...that you'll show and trial...the pedigree matters less." 

I would say the pedigree always matters -- you may not understand it or appreciate it as a pet buyer , but it always matters .

don't worry about shipping -- there is no stress that a good dog can't handle. Just last month sent a 12 week old to Orlando , no problems. 
Ship and receive all the time .


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## bethany.cole2013

Everyone has offered good points about the shipping and nerves correlation. I am wondering, though, how will you know if the puppy can handle the stresses of shipping? Will the breeder be able to tell you or how would you go about knowing this?


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## onyx'girl

Look at what the breeder has previously produced.


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## Capone22

You wouldn't even have to worry about it if you get it from a quality breeder with quality puppies. 


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