# Training fail



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

/trainer fail. So ive been bringing my girl to a local gsd club since 11 weeks, she just turned 6 months. The puppy training has been a ring of dog/handlers and the trainer calling out sit, heel,down etc, not much if any instruction on how to do each move, no marking good or bad behavior. Today I graduated to the novice class.
Ive seen the trainer from today at the club and a few weeks ago he told me ecollars arent allowed in the door, he relayed a story of a dog in an agility tunnel who got shocked and wouldnt go back in. Early on today Apache was not doing well, once in the ring she was finding crumbs from the previous class and not heeling well. The trainer told me "you have no focus from your dog" Which is the opposite of normal but I can agree at that point. Then he told me to get a prong collar, and im not against it but I was iffy because this is the guy who told me no ecollar. - his own dogs look completely shut down to me or else they are elderly. They just sit there and do nothing, look asleep with eyes open, and when I brought my puppy to class months ago his dogs would eat my puppy if I let her get near.
I think its time to stop going there even if its cheap.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Run!


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

my trainer will not use prong collars or collars. It is also treat free training. She does demonstrate how to get the dog to do the command though and will come help if anyone is having problems with getting their dog to comply.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

The trainer also complained at me using treats to lead her heeling, I told him thats where we are at with our training and he said you wont always have treats, and theres 4 month olds who do great heeling- so I should use a prong to correct. I was thinking" I dont care and those dogs are being robbed of drive" She did great at the recall by staying until called the first time ever, usually she cant leave my side, and shes been the most enthusiastic at recall at every training. The second recall she wouldnt stay and I asked what he would do and he forced her into a sit pretty rough. And some of his terms like "finish" had completely different meaning than in the puppy class at the same place- youre right I need a different trainer.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> The second recall she wouldnt stay and I asked what he would do and he forced her into a sit pretty rough.


The guy is supposed to be teaching something, instead he is losing the trust of the pup and affecting it's confidence in obedience by being rough. 

The pup/dog must trust the handlers and feel safe in order to learn effectively. That trainer is simply gonna force the pup to do things.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

A few weeks ago I stayed after my puppy class to watch the adult class. It was a different trainer and same situation, stay b4 recall. He forced a lab to sit between his legs, the labs tail was under itself, he was on his back all curled over. When that guy moved the dog did a backwards roll from sitting on his back


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

And remember food is a great reward in training, at home and on walks. I don't understand why these 'trainers' don't like to use it. It is always good to reinforce what the dog knows and reward when it is correct.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

As someone who has trained more than one GSD, I think classes are somewhat ambiguous.

What works for one dog is not going to work for a whole class of dogs. They are trying to find the most common denominator when teaching these classes and if they had a whole class of GSD's geared towards GSD's or a whole class of Lhasa Apso's geared to a whole class of Lhasa Apso's, I think everyone would come out ahead, but that's not where the money is, is it?

How can you teach a puppy class of several different breeds of dogs the same exact thing, let alone the same dog the same thing?

That is asinine to asume that you can train different breeds of puppy the same way, let alone dogs.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> He forced a lab to sit between his legs,


They are just over powering the dogs through force and not caring enough to nurture the dogs skills. 

You can achieve much more on your own. There is no rush any ways. Enjoy your pup. Relax, research and realize what training methods work to give you the control you want while preserving the dogs spirit.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i always take private lessons before group classes. i think it's to many
distractions for a puppy in a group class. i add distractions slowly as the 
pup makes progress with it's training.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

We will try the Shutzhund again now that she has her adult teeth. THe trainer uses a slow approach but at least its based on good methods. The other trainer spoke in riddles like yoda or Miyagi, I asked how to teach no barking and he said train her to bark.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

volcano said:


> The trainer also complained at me using treats to lead her heeling, I told him thats where we are at with our training and *he said you wont always have treats*...


 I'd pass. It's pretty clear this person doesn't know much about dog training. If he did, he'd know you won't NEED to always have treats with you if you use food in training. He would also be teaching you HOW to train your dog new skills, not just barking out orders at the class.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

The club is well over 50 years old. I have a feeling they still are using the 50 year old techniques. In the puppy class we kinda used treats, I knew to use them and the trainer liked them, but it was a 2x weekly drop in clas and I saw lots of new people that didnt even know to use treats and no instruction on how and when to deliver. The pre novice class is expected to do shutdown style recalls and stays, it seems they want gsd who just sit there. It was odd to me when the guy training a gsd in german commands had such a lazy looking recall and the dog even went the wrong direction???

To me a recall is nothing without enthusiasm, they have to be able to be running for a squirrel and turn on a dime upon recall, I saw my friends dog get run over.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

volcano said:


> ... The other trainer spoke in riddles like yoda or Miyagi, I asked how to teach no barking and he said train her to bark.


What he suggested is a good way to go, but his explanation was incomplete. When this problem comes up I suggest that the owner put the barking on command. Train it until the barking is reliable, that is, the dog will bark 25 times with just one command. Then teach a "quiet" command. When the dog barks and you don't want any more of it, give the quiet command.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Do you think I should begin this bark training from a heel? I have an einstein ecollar, we are still just using it for recall with the buzzer. Can you share how to use that in a bark training situation?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

volcano said:


> Do you think I should begin this bark training from a heel? I have an einstein ecollar, we are still just using it for recall with the buzzer. Can you share how to use that in a bark training situation?


No need for the heeling. I'd start the training at home. Put the dog on leash so he can't wander off if he gets frustrated. Don't give him any commands but tease him with treats or a toy, whichever he prefers most. I prefer to use treats for this, in very small pieces so it's swallowed quickly and you can get back to training. If you use a toy, there's an interruption in the work while you play with the dog, and perhaps a conflict when you try to take it away from him. If you're using treats, as soon as he swallows it, you're back to training. Make sure to cut back on his food to balance out the treats that you're using in this work. 

Hold it up so he can't grab it. Tease him by wiggling it, saying "get it, get it" (or whatever else makes him want to get it). It may take a few minutes or even a few sessions, but sooner or later he WILL vocalize. It may only be a whine. No matter what it, is reward it by giving him the treat or toy. Start the teasing again. More than likely he'll whine again but this time much faster than it took to get it the first time. Reinforce again. Next time he has to whine longer, louder or several times, (pick one) to get the reinforcement. Keep building on this, making him whine longer and longer to get the reinforcement. Sooner or later the whine will turn into a bark. 

Don't work so long that he becomes overly frustrated. If you do, he may lose interest. When he does bark, especially if it's the first time, "jackpot" the reinforcement. 

Keep this up until he's barking reliably. Start out by going to the same area in your home every time you start this training. Once he's barking, move to other areas of the home and the back yard. 

The Ecollar has no use in this until he's barking reliably. Get back to me when he's there, and I'll give you instructions for the next phase, "Teaching the quiet command."


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

last night I said "get him" in a suspicious tone and she barked like crazy the first time. I think Ill use that word.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DUH I forgot to tell you in the instructions, that at some point, when the dog is catching on, to introduce the command that you want to use. 



volcano said:


> last night I said "get him" in a suspicious tone and she barked like crazy the first time. I think Ill use that word.


Aren't you doing SchH with her? I hope that you're using a different command for the dog to bite than this, if you intend using it for just barking. It sounds as if the dog has already made an association with this command. If that's what's been used for biting, you could be headed for dangerous territory. I suggest some neutral word, instead of a command that has some other association.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

We are very beginner at shutz, just biting a rag and running in circles. Shes never been put in defense. I will consider another word, I heard of geblout but dont know how to say it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The fact that you might be mispronouncing the word from the German language won't mean anything to your dog. I think it's pronounced Gib (hard "G" and soft "I" [as in "give," but with a V on the end] − lout [as in "about"]. (Unless you're Canadian). But I've heard it pronounced several ways. One of the more common ways has the first syllable pronounced with more if a "E" sound. Anyone well versed in German here?


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## BoTaBe (May 2, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> The fact that you might be mispronouncing the word from the German language won't mean anything to your dog. I think it's pronounced Gib (hard "G" and soft "I" [as in "give," but with a V on the end] − lout [as in "about"]. (Unless you're Canadian). But I've heard it pronounced several ways. One of the more common ways has the first syllable pronounced with more if a "E" sound. Anyone well versed in German here?


It's the command "Gib Laut" in German. 
"Gib" is pronounced e.g. like the NCIS guy Gibbs, but without the "s" at the end. 
"Laut" is almost the sames as "loud" in English, just a "t" at the end, not a "d". 
Just typed it in on YouTube and looked for a video - came up with this one: 



The woman says "Gib Laut" right in the beginning and around the 0:08 marker. Hope it helps!


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## shawk2424 (Feb 6, 2013)

This is why you should always attend some training sessions without your dog to see what they are all about. As an owner you should also research training methods that are out there on your own because most puppies only respond to to treats at first till you get your pup fully engaged with you. 

I was fortunate that my breeder also runs a local Schutzhund club close to me so it was easy to get training geared towards GSD's. I know some owners don't have the option to pick trainers because of their location. Good luck in your search and remember there is great training material all over the net.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I went there 10 weeks, it wasnt a bad experience and we will go on occasion. They are steering in a different direction than I am interested in- AKC stuff. But Its only 6 bux and drop in classes, I havent found the perfect class and they all want a 8 week session vs drop in. I have a couple of shutzhund options, one is from early morning until mid afternoon. The other is in the evening and I prefer that but I think its changing now that they can do tracking in the warm weather.


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## Aliqua (May 16, 2013)

Fundy Schutzhund Club - Schutzhund Commands

Speak/Bark	
Gib Laut
(geblout)


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I stopped going to this club for the same reasons.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

see that's where I am with Roxy...I've paid for the 6 weeks and will try to stick it out..but it's too mixed of a group. Plus Roxy's brother is in the group so that right there is a big distraction...they want to clown around in class. 

and the trainer ..I'm not sure that she hasn't just proclaimed herself as one. She's got good tips and such ..but I really am not that impressed with her "training" skills. I am thinking I get better results at home on my own..with collar of choice, treats and clicker.


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

in our class we have a limited area where we "train" ..when we are walking we have one lady and her dog who refuse to do what everybody else is doing because her dog just wants to nip and yap at the other dogs..so if we are walking one way around in a circle..she and her dog are in their own world walking against the grain ..messing the other dogs up. I am waiting to see if she returns tonight and if the trainer says something to her..either do what everybody else is doing or go somewhere else. We've all paid the money and to have somebody deliberately doing their own thing..yeah that's not cool


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

the trainer should ask the bad dogs to move towards the inside of the circle to stay out of the way. If they dont do that I just pass on the inside doing heels and such. It would stink to be locked into a contract in a group you dont like. Most shutz clubs are drop in but arent cheap either.


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## Kingsj (Sep 17, 2011)

Most of my training I have done on my own. A club would be nice, but I've become extremely cynical of the average "trainer". I believe many have good info, but rarely will you find someone with the understanding of the complex temperament of the GSD AND the open minded, imaginative thinking required to solve odd behavior issues when they arise. 

The big benefit of attending a club, IMO, would be to practice commands around over dogs and in a different environment. You can even do that if your instructor is a dunce! 

You probably already know this, but please be very careful with the ecollar. I have an Einstein, which I think is an amazing tool, but I know a couple people that rushed into using an eollar too soon. Their relationship with their dog suffered and they were unable to use the ecollar for some exercises after that. 

Just a word of caution. Good luck with your training as you move forward!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

For now the ecollar is in training, we use it as I say come for recall. She already came 90% of the time, We dont use it for that 10%. Just training her that she can shut it off by coming.


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