# Finding a true working GSD



## sheepgirl (Jan 25, 2012)

Good morning everyone

I've decided to sign up for this forum in hopes for some sound, solid assistance and advice.

My husband and I are sheep farmers and we always have working dogs to herd our sheep. For the past 20 years we've used border collies, australian sheepdogs. However, we found out that we need to cull out that line of working dogs for our farm for various reasons not pertinent to my question/concern. 

We discussed very seriously which line of breed we'll examine for working on our farm. Both my father and grandfather (who owned the farm before me) resoundingly said GSD. I grew up with working GSD's on the farm so that appealed to us as well. We decided that we'd look at rescues first and see what we can get.

Wow. That is where I'm in shock. I'm not wishing to offend anyone by my next comments but it is my true observation and the reason I'm here. My observations: none of the dogs I have looked at had a work drive. Nearly all of them were simply...huge. Nothing like the lean, smaller looking GSD when I was a child. Since I've been looking since last May 2011 in that time, I had my father and grandfather join me on a few stops at rescues they're observations were the same as mine. Simply poor quality in regards to work, stamina, balance of temperment and drive, zilch. They're beauty? Hands down goregous...but that's it. Further we've been discouraged by how this rescue is really...well, a rescue. It seemed that the one we went to exclusively (due to distance) is ...a liar. They will say whatever they must to get them out the door. 

These dogs we want are going to be an part of our livestock expenditures, to keep them safe as well as the lambs when out on the field. My feeling is in the near year that we've look at rescues gives me more and more less hope that the GSD that my grandfather, father specifically worked with is extinct. We've looked into going so far as importing from Germany but my question is why when all we saw were tons of rescues? Albiet, none fit our needs. Being that it is a very serious part of our business we may just need to import but am I right or wrong that the GSD of "old" no longer exsists? If I'm wrong I'd be thrilled to be wrong. 

Thank you kindly for your time.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Many dogs that wind up in rescues are GSDs from backyard breeders, and, unfortunately (as you said), are bred to be pets and nothing more. 

I'm sure someone will come along that will be able to help you out more, but I think you'd pretty much have to go the breeder route if you want a working GSD. I can't think of any off of the top of my head, but I know there are breeders who work their dogs in herding.


----------



## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

Your best bet is to look into a quality breeder. Like Konatashi said: Odds are that these dogs you are looking at aren't the best representation of the breed. Why? Because most quality breeders would never allow their dogs to end up in a rescue for one. I'm not saying it's impossible but that's just my observation.


----------



## sheepgirl (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm feeling a bit sheepish (pun intended  ) as you're right. Frankly until right now we never considered that they'd be poorly bred, and used as pets which isn't bad at all--but what a loss to the breed! You both have no idea the floodgates of light that came into my weary head knowing this. I can have hope.


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

You have me intrigued 
What type of sheep work do you want the GSD to do?
My understanding is that GSD "herd" sheep in an entirely different way to border collies or is that the intention.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1>>>> you have to get rid of good working dogs
for different working dogs, umm??

2>>>> when you were a child i'm sure the standard
was written for the GSD. between then and now i doubt
the standard has changed much. show lines and working lines will
herd.



sheepgirl said:


> 1>>>> For the past 20 years we've used border collies, australian sheepdogs. However, we found out that we need to cull out that line of working dogs for our farm for various reasons not pertinent to my question/concern.
> 
> 
> 
> 2>>>> That is where I'm in shock. I'm not wishing to offend anyone by my next comments but it is my true observation and the reason I'm here. My observations: none of the dogs I have looked at had a work drive. Nearly all of them were simply...huge. Nothing like the lean, smaller looking GSD when I was a child.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Even in Germany, many of hte dogs who have HGH (large flock herding titles) are "show dogs" not true working daily dogs....most of the dogs who truly work daily, and win the national herding championship are still the working line dogs. I attended a show this past summer where Herr Wilfred Scheld officiated, and he presented a slideshow and short talk about herding, the dogs who were sucessful and what was needed to herd genetically...it was very interesting. We have one member here who herds the HGH style actively (phgsd) and she may be able to help you understand what is entailed. My one female line has been worked/tested on sheep and there is just very little opportunity for most to engage in this type training.


Lee Hough


----------



## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

You can get lucky and find a good sheep herding dog in rescue (like I did...My Sam loved sheep herding and was really good at it) but it will be hard and for sure take a long time.

As others have said, most GSDs in rescue are poorly bred by BYBs. Your best route will be to find a good reputable breeder. Where are you located? Maybe we can suggest good breeders in your area.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Sheepgirl, Welcome to the forum!! Trying to find a good working dog in rescue may take a while. I would spend sometime researching breeders who breed for herding. One person I would really spend some quality time learning from would be Carmen on this forum (carmspack). She seems to have a very deep knowledge of bloodlines and mentions genetic herding instincts often in her posts.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Ellen Nickelsberg, Boundry Instinct by Ellen Nickelsberg - Nickelsberg's Farm
or Kleine Weise, Kleinen Wiese German Shepherds

may be good resources


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

You need to talk to Carmspack and phgsd... Both should have some ideas to point you in the right direction.

As said, most of what you see at rescues are poorly bred dogs.

Its also worth noting that even among the "well bred" workingline GSDs, many are not gonna be good for herding. Most have been bred with sport or military/police applications in mind, not herding. Its just not a very common job for the breed anymore.

ETA: the two links gagsd linked to look promising also


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Ulf Kintzel has been herding here in the US with his GSDs very successfully, I believe he will be breeding a litter this winter.

Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you are on FB this page will be of interest: https://www.facebook.com/pages/White-Clover-Sheep-Farm/106339942730025

Annettes link above, expanded


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Definately look to a good breeder or even start asking around herding trials. There are usually a few GSDs there. I took my boy for his HIT and he passed, but was the only GSD out of 25 dogs. A lady there even made a comment that she didn't think that GSDs were herding dogs...lol.

But about your comment on the breed, it is sad, but it has happened to all breeds. Including border collies and australian shepherds. There are plenty of pet quality border collies that wouldn't be able to herd all day like you would want them to. The only reason that border collies as a whole have not lost their herding ability is that they are generally only used for herding, where as GSDs have been used for protection/police work/SAR for a while now.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thanks all . I do try to deliberately build old real herding genetics into my breeding program. I find that other instincts are naturally present , including hunt search, instinctive tracking , genetic obedience - some more so than others but really really try to find this last group. Can't have leaking drives -- have to be stable and rock solid , able to work independantly well, and co-operatively well in an unstructured willing partnership - so not training drills. 
One male I have a lot of hopes for exhibits these things. As a pup he intuitively learned "guard the object" by knowing which things I put value on . (reference available). There are other things including one encounter with an errant sheep that broke through the page wire fence which divides our property from the sheep graze immediately behind us (100 acres). It was like a cut and corner dance until the sheep wanted to evade an bolt and then Sumo broadsided the sheep. Dog and sheep were totally flat skidding on the field . Sheep turned and ran back through the fence - which was repaired. The only other sheep that to cross that fence was a dead one dragged over by the coyotes and discovered by my husband and one of the dogs , mostly consumed. 

Herding trials are more sport than practical . I communicate on a regular basis with people that have duties with herding sheep used as part of land management in Germany - -- secret ? hard to find a GSD being used for real work -- they use the land race dogs that were put together to create the GSD . Dogs that were working when Germany was not even a unified nation . When there were big differences between north and south, protestant vs catholic, militaristic vs pacifist . That is why dogs from the north - and south were different - because the people were different. anyway --- the dogs used by many of the serious professional herders and one of the last wanderschaferei are not "purebred" public registry GSD. 
I do find though that there is a good pool - if you know how to look for it -- and don't breed for marketable colour -- in some of the DDR lines.
Herr Baumann has some excellent herding dogs , and he is a sheep herder "von Lord Fandor"
Basically have all these "old ddr" lines.

sorry for the hodge podge - got a lot on my plate this week -
by the way Laurel has Sumo's sister.

I would also recommend Lee, Wolfstraum, am familiar with some of her pedigrees - and yes there is a genetic conservation through Maineiche. 
Also the genetics of Kessy Waldwinkel owned by a young lady on the forum.

Notice the conformation !!! , look at proper movement on the Fandor site (Baumann site)


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

If I ever get a sable, I would love a Hetty boy- my God he is absolutey gorgeous.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Your best bet is to find a breeder that still breeds for working and herding ability. 
Not sure what area you are in, one breeder that comes to mind is Tehillah Shepherds in British Columbia:
Tehillah German Shepherds, Home of Canada's number 1 High in Trial German Shepherds

I have no experience with them, but from their website, they seem to have a high-rate of success with their litters going into working homes. You may need to be open to shipping to find the right dog for you. You could also contact some working-dog breeders and see if they know of other breeders closer to your area where you could turn for a dog.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hetty is a female !! 

I have a son and daughter of Iwan Poppitz V Iwan vom Poppitz - German Shepherd Dog --- Hetty is from Aron


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

carmspack said:


> Hetty is a female !!
> 
> I have a son and daughter of Iwan Poppitz V Iwan vom Poppitz - German Shepherd Dog --- Hetty is from Aron


:hammer::hammer: LOL!! See, sables all look alike to me. But Hetty caught my eye, she has that IT factor.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

While herding trials are sport, when I was doing herding training with my dogs we often did "chores" around the farm - sorting, vet work, moving from one pen to the field or vise versa. Sorting lambs at weaning time was a real challenge!


----------



## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

GSD's do herd very differently than border collies...they are best suited to "tending" sheep in a large graze, working as a living fence. They CAN fetch/gather but do not seem to have that instinctive "bubble" that BC's have, so moving a small flock can be very tough with a drivey GSD. They are best suited to large flocks that can absorb the energy of the dog without panicking. With a small flock you'd probably have to put the dog in a stand every few paces OR get an extremely calm and obedient dog. It really depends on what you're looking to use the dog for.

If I was looking for a GSD to herd, I would look into Ulf, his dogs are bred specifically for herding and most if not all will be able to herd. 
The judge for our past HGH trial does breed - he is in Germany, but he doesn't speak much english and I don't believe he uses e-mail, so a phone call would be best to reach him. 
Die Glockenbergsschaeferei

I do believe that in well-bred working lines, there are dogs who retain the herding instincts. My Kessy is an example...she was bred for Schh for generations, but she is a fantastic herding/tending dog. And I recently brought home a puppy from Lee (wolfstraum) that I hope will also make a nice herding dog. Later in the year we'll see how she does. I know that there is no guarantee when working with dogs that are NOT of herding lines - but I think that finding a good BALANCED working dog strongly stacks the deck in your favor. A "smart" thinking dog is important - resilience and biddability are also very important. But of course the dog has to have the attraction to the sheep - and not be TOO attracted where it just wants to kill or chase them.

All of my GSD's have been tested on sheep - my first had very nice instincts, but she was too sensitive and would shut down at the slightest correction. Djenga is my dumb prey-driven "sport" dog, but she actually surprised me and did really well on her instinct test. She started patrolling the border within a few minutes. 

I do have a thread about my training in herding with Kessy, and I think I posted some other info there that might be of use to you, along with lots of video, if you want to check it out.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/herding/155584-hgh-training-progress-videos-start.html


----------



## sheepgirl (Jan 25, 2012)

sparra said:


> You have me intrigued
> What type of sheep work do you want the GSD to do?
> My understanding is that GSD "herd" sheep in an entirely different way to border collies or is that the intention.


They do herd differently, indeed. 

We need sentry of property and herding. Guarding is done primarily by our Maremmas.

We've suffered losses in the last 20 months that are significant due to wolves and coyotes, both to our sheep and working dogs.


----------



## sheepgirl (Jan 25, 2012)

Where did I say I was getting rid of good working dogs for different good working dogs? 

That would be a very poor business practice, no? Please do not read into something that was not said or implied.

You say they work, both show and working line? I stated clearly they do not, this of course may very well be due to the poor breeding practices and thus poor examples I've seen within rescues. Based on my experience I have to whole heartedly disagree with you that they can 'still' work--thankfully I'm being shown here that it is simply a matter of being directed to the right information and line necessary.


----------



## sheepgirl (Jan 25, 2012)

carmspack said:


> thanks all . I do try to deliberately build old real herding genetics into my breeding program. I find that other instincts are naturally present , including hunt search, instinctive tracking , genetic obedience - some more so than others but really really try to find this last group. Can't have leaking drives -- have to be stable and rock solid , able to work independantly well, and co-operatively well in an unstructured willing partnership - so not training drills.
> One male I have a lot of hopes for exhibits these things. As a pup he intuitively learned "guard the object" by knowing which things I put value on . (reference available). There are other things including one encounter with an errant sheep that broke through the page wire fence which divides our property from the sheep graze immediately behind us (100 acres). It was like a cut and corner dance until the sheep wanted to evade an bolt and then Sumo broadsided the sheep. Dog and sheep were totally flat skidding on the field . Sheep turned and ran back through the fence - which was repaired. The only other sheep that to cross that fence was a dead one dragged over by the coyotes and discovered by my husband and one of the dogs , mostly consumed.
> 
> Herding trials are more sport than practical . I communicate on a regular basis with people that have duties with herding sheep used as part of land management in Germany - -- secret ? hard to find a GSD being used for real work -- they use the land race dogs that were put together to create the GSD . Dogs that were working when Germany was not even a unified nation . When there were big differences between north and south, protestant vs catholic, militaristic vs pacifist . That is why dogs from the north - and south were different - because the people were different. anyway --- the dogs used by many of the serious professional herders and one of the last wanderschaferei are not "purebred" public registry GSD.
> ...


Wow. What incredible information. After speaking with my husband and dad all day about the responses received to my inquiry, first off, thank you! secondly, we should have started HERE when we began our search. We'd be way ahead of the curve, but alas, it was not the case. This information among all others given is impeccable. It is so appreciated. I will continue to read the rest of the posts, go to all the links and suggestions, will take time but it will be a productive, learning experience.

Someone asked where we live. We live in northern Wisconsin.

Many Blessings to each of you.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what does cull out mean??



sheepgirl said:


> However, we found out that
> 
> >>>> we need to cull out<<<<
> 
> that line of working dogs for our farm for various reasons not pertinent to my question/concern.





sheepgirl said:


> Where did I say I was getting rid of good working dogs for different good working dogs?
> 
> That would be a very poor business practice, no? Please do not read into something that was not said or implied.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sheepgirl said:


> They do herd differently, indeed.
> 
> We need sentry of property and herding. Guarding is done primarily by our Maremmas.
> 
> We've suffered losses in the last 20 months that are significant due to wolves and coyotes, both to our sheep and working dogs.


 
Maybe you need to get some Guard dogs to protect BOTh the herding dogs and the sheep? Wolfhounds?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Maybe you need to get some Guard dogs to protect BOTh the herding dogs and the sheep? Wolfhounds?


Around here they use donkeys a lot. Donkeys HATE coyotes and wolves and will kill one if they get the chance.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Kessy does have strong heritage shepherding genetics -- I know I said I would do her pedigree analysis and will still do it - to show you. 
Lord Gleisdreieck shows up many times in herding - I happen to like Manto Kalenbach which marries DDR herding to west German old herding Uran - Uwe Kirschental (before the combining with show) (I mean Kirschental before the combining with show) SG Manto vom Kahlenbach - German Shepherd Dog

now if you want the livestock guardian against predators I would think an Akbash - taken in and introduced to "kind" will be a good bet . Had extensive conversation with a person who breeds serious working labrador retrievers - her last litter resulted in 5 dogs used in cancer detection , which she bred , raised, trained -- . So where they are located in Saskatchewan there are problems with coyotes, wolves , and bear , which were coming in and posing a risk to her dogs. So she got a young Akbash just the other week to put into the middle of her dogs. Whatever the Akbash is with during a critical time period it "becomes" . So sheep, the dog is sheep, duck, the dog is duck, etc. 

by the way here is an appeal for breath - read it Home Page


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

based on your experience with poor breeding and rescues you're
probably right, a show or working line can't work.



sheepgirl said:


> You say they work, both show and working line?
> 
> I stated clearly they do not,
> 
> ...


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

sheepgirl said:


> You say they work, both show and working line? I stated clearly they do not, this of course may very well be due to the poor breeding practices and thus poor examples I've seen within rescues.


Just curious but how do you know they don't work?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Around here they use donkeys a lot. Donkeys HATE coyotes and wolves and will kill one if they get the chance.


Can a donkey kill a wolf? 

That would be one tough donkey to take on wolves! I could see maybe a coyote or two, but I would have thought that a couple of wolves would be a different matter!

I always thought that wolves could even take down a Moose. Maybe it would take a whole pack of them?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Good question. I gotta tell you though, I don't really see an Anatolian, Akabash, or GSD fighing off an entire wolf pack either.


----------



## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Carmen - I do understand Kessy has herding genetics in there - but not selectively bred for in 5+ generations.
I also had an interesting talk with our herding judge about Uwe Kirschental - he said he'd bred to him and 2 of the pups were good for Schh but not herding, and 2 for herding but not Schh. Was very interesting!


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

To the original poster--I'm confused. What do you want the GSDs to do?

You said you had Maremmas for livestock guardians. Are you looking for GSDs that will watch your property and alert against humans or against predators?

How many dogs from rescue did you test out?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Nothing like the lean, smaller looking GSD when I was a child.


I'm sorry to stray off topic a tad, but this statement rather stood out to me! 
It's been bandied about that the "dogs of olde" are huge beasts that let kids hang off their necks and even saddle up and ride!

To the OP - welcome and I know some of the folks here can point you to exactly what you are looking for!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are a few sheepfarms near me and they use donkeys, llama's to watch their flocks. And they use four wheelers to gather them up. Never see dogs with the flocks.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Good question. I gotta tell you though, I don't really see an Anatolian, Akabash, or GSD fighing off an entire wolf pack either.


 
We need a BIG PACK of dogs - a primal contest with their wild cousins! 

Winner gets the sheep!


Heh! Heh!

Probably need to recruit a few Wolfhounds as backup!


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Coincidentally Ulf posted earlier today that he bred Elka to Lenz, pups expected March 29th. Check out the pedigree, many generations HGH titled as well as KKL and SchH titles as well. 

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

sheepgirl said:


> They do herd differently, indeed.
> 
> We need sentry of property and herding. Guarding is done primarily by our Maremmas.
> 
> We've suffered losses in the last 20 months that are significant due to wolves and coyotes, both to our sheep and working dogs.


I am in Australia and we farm sheep here too. Not sure if it is the same way....we have vast open paddocks.....up to 1,000 acres.....sheep dogs here are required to go out into the paddock and move the sheep into a mob and then "drive" the sheep to a destination OR work in the yards drafting sheep etc......all of which are probably more suited to the border collie or kelpie which is why I asked what you wanted to do. Still not quite sure what you are needing or why the borders would not be working out for you??
We don;t have wolves or coyotes here (thank goodness) but we do have foxes and a special breed of wild dog which do a lot of damage to our sheep.....we have donkeys as herd guards and they are wonderful.....
Could a donkey kill a wolf?.....well after seeing what they can do to our wild dogs who are very large I would say 100% yes.....although our wild dogs are solitary so if confronted with a wolf pack then I am not so sure but they are still great when it comes to protecting their "flock"


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

a friend of mine has a pack of 5 donkeys, and believe you me, they will kill a dog/coyote or whatever tries to get in with them. 

However, I don't know if a 'lone' donkey could do it, but a pack of them work together.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

sparra said:


> I am in Australia and we farm sheep here too. Not sure if it is the same way....we have vast open paddocks.....up to 1,000 acres.....sheep dogs here are required to go out into the paddock and move the sheep into a mob and then "drive" the sheep to a destination OR work in the yards drafting sheep etc......all of which are probably more suited to the border collie or *kelpie *which is why I asked what you wanted to do. Still not quite sure what you are needing or why the borders would not be working out for you??


I'm really surprised Kelpies aren't very common in the US. They aren't bred for looks, obviously, but they are smart, agile and great working dogs. I was lucky to be able to foster a GSD/Kelpie mix and he was amazing!
I think they'd give many breeds a run for their money on an agility course or any other sport they were given the chance to do!


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> a friend of mine has a pack of 5 donkeys, and believe you me, they will kill a dog/coyote or whatever tries to get in with them.
> 
> However, I don't know if a 'lone' donkey could do it, but a pack of them work together.


 
Donkey versus dog (some breeds) or coyote = YES

Donkey versus wolves = I would have to see it to believe it. Wolves can pull down and kill a full grown Moose or Bison!


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Donkey versus dog (some breeds) or coyote = YES
> 
> Donkey versus wolves = I would have to see it to believe it. Wolves can pull down and kill a full grown Moose or Bison!


Yeah you are probably right although I think the way donkeys do their best work is not actually killing them but just "confronting" them. If our dogs go into the paddock our donkeys will run at them and chase them away no questions asked so whether or not that would be enough to deter the wolves I don't know but they get pretty angry when they chase and I think it would put the wind up them. All the literature we read b4 getting ours was US based so they must be pretty popular over there.

Onyx'girl......yes Kelpies are incredible dogs......we use them over border collies here and yes I think they would be very good at agility if you could keep up with them!!!!


----------

