# Grim is changing, class was HORRIBLE!!



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

The other day at Petsmart when Grim was barking and vocalizing the entire time, I had no idea what was up with him. I thought at the end that it was him needing to go poo because he'd had diarrhea. Well, not so! We missed class last week (which would have been the first time he was there), so today was his first arrival there. Well, he started all the barking and vocalizing as soon as we got out of the van. I tried to walk him around and get some energy out and have him go potty before we went in. He was being so obnoxious that the trainer (who was shoveling snow out front) said if he didn't stop when he came inside, we'd have to 'figure something out'. Well, he didn't stop. He wanted to meet all the dogs and people... which never happened. Some acted afraid of him, or like he'd hurt their dogs.  He was staring at some of them, but not in a mean way. He never met a dog he didn't like! The trainer asked what I did for correction for the barking. I said nothing, because this was all new. We spent the whole class away from everyone else, with him blocked behind a plastic curtain most of the time. 

He didn't pay attention to me at all. He wasn't focused at all. Heck, when it was his turn to come to me when called across the room, he didn't even acknowledge that I was over there calling him almost every time!  I had his favorite thing (cheese) and that didn't work. The trainer gave me a piece of hot dog which worked a little better. I also had a lick stick that I just bought that he loves. It didn't matter. He looked at me a few times, but not enough. He was totally tuning me out 90% of the time. Now I've had him out to Petsmart, etc. for months and months. I've made him sit, etc. when we're there, too. He was SO amped up... and no other dog there was acting like this! :crazy: I spent most of the time 'hushing' him. I think that if he'd been allowed to greet the other dogs, he'd have done better. However, he can't always have what he wants. 

The very worst thing, though, was when I was putting on my coat and hat, etc. to leave. An older woman came in for the next class with a female shepherd. Grim was watching her... but not doing a thing. The instructor said "don't let him stare like that".... and the old woman said "Yes, he's giving her the evil eye." THAT made me mad!! He doesn't have an 'evil eye'. He's freaking 6 months old and loves every dog and person he sees!!!!  I had to get him to potty before we left, and I kept wanting to go back in and tell the old lady that I was offended by her comment. I didn't, but it was all I could do to not say anything. How can you make a judgement like that about a dog you don't know?? He's a PUPPY!!!! Of course he's going to watch other dogs! 

I guess I'll be getting up REALLY early next week to take him on a very long walk before we drive up there. The only thing is, he'll have two hours to sleep on the way there and will probably be full of energy again when we get there. I tried to get there a half hour early today to walk some of it off, but the weather turned really crappy and I lost most of my extra time. He's so very high drive and energy that it takes a lot to burn it off. It's not something that can be done fast. I know he may look intimidating, but he's just a baby. He wasn't trying to 'stare down' any dog. He just wanted to play. Should I really be correcting him every time he looks at another dog? Somehow I've got to figure out how to get his attention around other dogs. This is new... all the barking and vocalizing. He's also never blown me off this bad. First day of class with him there.... and I already feel like I've failed as his handler. I don't understand this sudden change in him. I swear, he's not being aggressive. I don't know why he's barking, whining, and nearly howling all the time now when we're out of the house and around other people.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I am not nearly as experienced as many people on this board, but I have seen in my own dogs that they can have "bad" days. Particularly with Niko, who has reactivity issues, some days he is super cool and he can handle minor stresses like seeing a cat running away or a horse going by. Other days we might be in the car and seeing a cat in a yard will make him bark. I really think that some days are just going to be sucky days. It probably has to do with your dog's age too. 

I wish I had advice for you on how to handle him when he gets like that, it's something I never figured out!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Jag said:


> Should I really be correcting him every time he looks at another dog?


No. You can try distracting him and, at the very least, turning him away from the other dog.

Staring IS a challenge in dog language but it's not always a negative thing. My Cresteds stare at each other before they bolt off chasing each other. That's all in fun. But if one has something and another one wants it - they will stare at each other to see who 'blinks' first.



> Somehow I've got to figure out how to get his attention around other dogs. This is new... all the barking and vocalizing.


How often does he get out to see other dogs? If possible, get him out and around other dogs as often as you can so seeing new ones isn't all that exciting.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I meant to add - he sounds like your typical 6 month old puppy who wants to playplayplay with everyone!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sorry but he's not a puppy anymore. He was probably giving the other dog an "evil eye" and eye contact is probably the number one thing that will set off dogs. Staring and constant eye contact is something that is very frowned upon at our club since its something that humans do not understand. Dogs communicate/challenge each other through eye contact and you really never know when it will set them off.

You have to look at it from the other people's point of view. I know you love your dog and think he's an angel, and know him better than anyone else can. But they're trying to train their dogs (whatever they maybe) and there is a barking 6 month old GSD right next to them that the owner can't seem to get through to.

I would really concentrate on working with your dog and not getting angry at people judging his actions. From everything you've described I would've thought exactly what the lady told you and also been quite the worried dog owner trying to train my dog in the same class as you. You're also at Petsmart...a place where people train for 8 weeks and once their dogs know sit/down/stay, they're done with training. Not the most knowledgeable of dog people and so they will just assume that your dog is being aggressive/dangerous. 6 months is the age that your puppy will stop getting slack from other dogs. Although he is a puppy, he might not know that he shouldn't stare at other dogs or be vocal or whatever else he does, and at this point the older dogs will correct him. He might actually be challenging them at this point.

He's what? 50-60 lbs by now? That's bigger than most full grown dogs you'll meet...so I really suggest you start thinking of him more as a dog and less of a puppy. And don't get mad at people that are actually giving you their first opinions of him for the way that he is acting.

Staring is never an initiation of play...its usually a challenge and only ends in play when the other dog backs down without a fight.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

martemchik said:


> Staring is never an initiation of play...its usually a challenge and only ends in play when the other dog backs down without a fight.


Actually, staring CAN be an invitation to play.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If I were you I'd let the comment go, its not a big deal, you are there for you and your dog forget about the comment. Tuke is super easy going and gets along fine with 95% of the other dogs, however every now and then she'll give one the stink eye. This was pointed out to me in a similar way and so I paid more attention and they were right, no big deal. Our new pup barks like crazy too, but loves everybody at the same time. We just keep taking him out in public/stores as much as possible and its starting to subside. It was his first class, I'll bet after a few classes he'll be fine. You might need to bring something of higher value for treats though.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't have much to help except just to say Ollie's started doing a big boy bark at other dogs only when he's on leash and its really random, the only thing I've been able to discern so far is if the dog is looking at him. He just started doing this so I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the trigger is. 

Took him to the beach a few days ago and one dog just set him off, big boy bark and hair standing up... but then we walked by a bunch of other dogs and nothing, only difference was this dog he barked at was staring at him. And then at the park there was a guy walking a husky and Ollie just went off on him too(same thing, dog was staring at him) and in those instances I'm not able to get his attention, only thing I've been able to do is just keep walking. 

Right now I'm working really hard on being the most awesome thing ever, works great at home but with distractions not so great. Possibly it's a lot to do with a surge of hormones...

I think the main thing is not letting them get in that state in the first place, so my plan is to carry high value stuff, let him see the dog but then immediately get his attention with the food and praise, praise, praise as the dog goes by. And then also take him places with people and dogs and practice focus exercises with a lot of distractions.

I know this might not help you much since our dogs are very different line wise and drive wise but I do feel your pain!

Also wanted to say that I agree with getting him out around dogs and people more... When I was sick for a few weeks and Ollie didn't get out much I noticed a HUGE difference with how he acted when seeing another dog so these last couple weeks we have been going out almost every day around dogs and people. He's met a lot of dogs and played with a lot of dogs but even just that short time away affected him.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm really sorry but I kinda had to laught at your post I know I'm evil lol. Remember a few months ago when I said he sounds like Havoc and you are in for a heck of a ride? The good news is it gets better when they are around 18 months...I would get the Michael Ellis DVDs (food, tug and advanced concepts in motivation) or rent them from Bow Wow Flix and learn how to channel his drive. 

With Havoc that stare turned into his patented "stink eye" which is ABSOLUTELY a challenge, which around 10 months he started to act on when people and dogs made eye contact with him or squared off with him etc etc. If he is a stable dog he will learn as he matures what is a challenge and what isn't, until then...have fun, figure out how to distract him.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Actually, staring CAN be an invitation to play.


Agreed, my dogs do this all the time... It is pure play in those cases, only challenge might be who chases who first.

Although I will say this is between two dogs of the same pack that know each other, staring at a strange dog is not something I would allow.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

I completely empathize. 

My dog started acting like that around that age and we're just getting him past it now that he's over a year old. Mine gets over excited wanting to meet every dog. 

Unfortunately, he's black and menacing-looking (yes, standard poodles can be frightening ;P) and has a very deep and aggressive-sounding bark. He looks for all the world like he's itching for a fight. Leaning (or lunging) forward, squared-up stance, direct unblinking stare, etc. But, no. If he gets close to a dog he's focused on, it's all goofy jumping around and play-bowing on his part. The other dog usually isn't so fond of him, but my dog is all about the play. But, he's still dangerous, because as I discovered by accident, if the other dog tries to correct him_ then_ he's all about the fight. So, intros to new dogs must be carefully managed and I can't let mine get focused on any other dog just in case.

So far, what's worked best for us is to get him around other dogs in a controlled situation and work on getting him focused on me and ignoring the other dogs. I start doing heeling exercises with a lot of quick turns and speed changes and speaking to him really excitedly to get his attention.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

At 6mos. I'd curb the staring too. 
Whether or not he wants to play is irrelevant when other dogs see it and take it as a challenge, and you must accept that he's exhibiting "challenging" behaviors _whether or not he means to_. With dogs who are familiar with each other maybe it's an "invitation to play" but with dogs who are strangers to that dog, they need to learn to quit it or they're going to elicit a fight at some point.

Read through Anthony's threads to see how quickly dog body language can go south even when his dog doesn't seemingly intend to invite fights or attacks.
We're not down there, as a rule, at their level so can miss tons of things.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

If someone walks by a dog with another dog, and the dog that was already there doesn't move (other than a tail wag) but watches the other dog walk by, THAT'S supposed to be a 'challenge'?? I don't buy it. His body posture the entire class was excitement and wanting to meet and play. Only one time did his posture change, and that's when one dog barked at another dog that was next to it, and that dog rolled over right away. Grim (I guess) took offense to that, and did bark across the room at that dog and his posture changed. I did correct him for that, and it was over. The rest of the time, though, it was all wanting to play and interact with the other dogs. He looked like a shepherd on Red Bull part of the time. He's not a dog. He's a puppy. He's never looked for a challenge with another dog in his life. We come across lose dogs all the time on walks since we moved. It seems that there are a million pits here just running the streets. I take him to Petsmart once a week. I take him everywhere I can take him. I've worked really hard to socialize him. His attitude towards strangers and strange dogs hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is his mouth. He's probably the happiest pup I've met. His tail wags all the time. When the instructor finally came up to him, he was all wags and wanting pets. He doesn't understand not getting attention, I think. However, both days he was barking outside at nothing as soon as we got out of the van. Tail wagging... barking like crazy. I don't think he feels the need to challenge any dog. He's so full of confidence... maybe too full, but that's him. He's always been vocal... just not barking. When he's been vocal in the past, I always just talk back to him. Maybe that was a bad thing to do, but I like vocal shepherds. The barking, however, is annoying. 

If he had hackles up, showed teeth, tried to go after other dogs, had rigid posture, and wasn't wagging his tail like crazy THEN I could see that reaction from people. I also need to get his eyes re-checked in the next couple of weeks. He's still having issues with going down (like out of the van) so I don't know if he's looking for long periods of time at things, people, and dogs because his vision isn't 100%.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

KristiM said:


> I'm really sorry but I kinda had to laught at your post I know I'm evil lol. Remember a few months ago when I said he sounds like Havoc and you are in for a heck of a ride? The good news is it gets better when they are around 18 months...I would get the Michael Ellis DVDs (food, tug and advanced concepts in motivation) or rent them from Bow Wow Flix and learn how to channel his drive.
> 
> With Havoc that stare turned into his patented "stink eye" which is ABSOLUTELY a challenge, which around 10 months he started to act on when people and dogs made eye contact with him or squared off with him etc etc. If he is a stable dog he will learn as he matures what is a challenge and what isn't, until then...have fun, figure out how to distract him.


GREAT!  OK, so maybe he's going into the 'jerk' phase. I won't deny that if a dog challenged him he'd take it to the mat in a heart beat. That was clear when he didn't like the one dog acting dominantly to the other. They were across the room, though, so I didn't have to worry about it. When he plays with his pug, they stare at each other then go tearing around together. Also, he wasn't constantly staring at one dog or another..... just watching all of them at different times. Every dog we walked by, though, the owner would pull their dog closer to them. I don't think he realized he was doing anything wrong, though. I've seen him posture (and he did it once in class), and that just wasn't his body language. He always seems chilled (mentally... like "I'm in control" attitude), not reactive in any way shape or form. I wonder if he's announcing himself or something. Either way, it's nonsense, and he's irritating me. Especially with all the blowing me off to do what he wanted to do (which I think is to play with the other dogs). He was born this way, though. His breeder even said "Grim likes things his way. Grim rules his world, and those are the rules he plays by." Something to that effect. I found this to be true very fast. He's very hard headed. I don't think he should disrupt the class, and I did about everything I knew how to do to try to get his attention. Nothing worked. He wanted to try to interact with the other dogs, and that's what he did pretty much the entire class. :headbang: If I corrected him for it and got more demanding that he look at me, he griped at me. One time he looked me dead in the eye and told me exactly what he thought of me correcting him.  Didn't stop me from doing it, though. If I can get through this class with him.....

How did you distract Havoc?? You said he started acting on it at 10 months... but when did he start staring? Did he have a rigid posture when he was staring? Now I'm getting more worried than annoyed with him, because I did everything but stand on my head and got nothing. I even moved in front of him and physically turned his head away. I guess I'll try steak pieces next week. He really loves cheese, too. I have saved it for training treats only, and he acted like he couldn't care less.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I found taking a blanket helped, Delgado already knew "bed" which meant lie down on the bed and be quiet so I used that command and he knew to stay on the blanket while we weren't actively doing obedience (trainer was talking, demos, etc). 

Also Delgado would get bored easily when we weren't actively doing things so when he would get restless I would work obedience with him quietly (puppy push-ups, taking treats gently, eye contact, etc). He also loved to tug so I would bring one with me. 


I was in two classes with barking dogs and here's what each trainer recommended:

First class (puppy class), get their attention back to you, whether it's a quiet toy (no squeakers as you don't want to distract the other dogs) or treat. Get a VERY high value treat, when he acts up make him sit and face you. When he's quiet and gives you eye contact treat. Do this until he's quiet and gives you eye contact for five seconds then treat him once he gives you quiet eye contact for ten seconds, then twenty. It really does work

Second trainer (beginner obedience): Stick the dog behind a curtain and throw treats over the curtain. Any guesses at how well this worked? Yep, not very well


I would advise you to follow the first trainers recommendations. Also rather then just tire him out before the trip, then the long drive can you get to the area of the class super early and tire him out there as well. Getting him used to the surroundings might take some of the excitement out of it

Also I wouldn't recommend allowing him to meet the other dogs, class is training time not play time. I don't want my dog focused on the other dogs, I want him focused on me right from the start and allowing him to play or greet with the other dogs might make him expect it every time 

Just my two cents, I hope it goes better next week


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## pancake (Oct 2, 2012)

Jag said:


> If someone walks by a dog with another dog, and the dog that was already there doesn't move (other than a tail wag) but watches the other dog walk by, THAT'S supposed to be a 'challenge'?? I don't buy it. His body posture the entire class was excitement and wanting to meet and play. Only one time did his posture change, and that's when one dog barked at another dog that was next to it, and that dog rolled over right away. Grim (I guess) took offense to that, and did bark across the room at that dog and his posture changed. I did correct him for that, and it was over. The rest of the time, though, it was all wanting to play and interact with the other dogs. He looked like a shepherd on Red Bull part of the time. He's not a dog. He's a puppy. He's never looked for a challenge with another dog in his life. We come across lose dogs all the time on walks since we moved. It seems that there are a million pits here just running the streets. I take him to Petsmart once a week. I take him everywhere I can take him. I've worked really hard to socialize him. His attitude towards strangers and strange dogs hasn't changed. The only thing that's changed is his mouth. He's probably the happiest pup I've met. His tail wags all the time. When the instructor finally came up to him, he was all wags and wanting pets. He doesn't understand not getting attention, I think. However, both days he was barking outside at nothing as soon as we got out of the van. Tail wagging... barking like crazy. I don't think he feels the need to challenge any dog. He's so full of confidence... maybe too full, but that's him. He's always been vocal... just not barking. When he's been vocal in the past, I always just talk back to him. Maybe that was a bad thing to do, but I like vocal shepherds. The barking, however, is annoying.
> 
> If he had hackles up, showed teeth, tried to go after other dogs, had rigid posture, and wasn't wagging his tail like crazy THEN I could see that reaction from people. I also need to get his eyes re-checked in the next couple of weeks. He's still having issues with going down (like out of the van) so I don't know if he's looking for long periods of time at things, people, and dogs because his vision isn't 100%.


Well a challenge doesn't mean a fight to the death. You can have a challenge in play. I think everyone has a different definition of what that means but the reason why you want your dog to not stare at other dogs is not that your dog is challenging the other dog but you never know if the other dog is unstable and sees it as a challenge and will start barking. At 6mo, I would curb this behavior for a second reason which is an attention and focus issue. Staring at other dogs while training means not staring at you so either way it'd be good to correct him for looking away. Michael Ellis suggests corrections for looking AWAY, not getting the dog to look at you. 
Basically you get the dog to initiate play with you and once you are in engagement and the dog looks away, you correct him and say no and slight quick pops on the leash (very very light, not correction degree. more for getting attention) and mark with YES when they turn and look at you.
The more I study Michael Ellis' DVDs and work, the more I realize how much sense it makes. I was skeptical at first and thought a lot of his stuff is just for sport dogs but yesterday was the true test. 

I also started training yesterday. It was the first class for formal obedience. My GSD was the youngest out of the entire group at 5.5 months and due to the foundation I put into her attention and training, she was the only stable one in the entire group. Other dogs were whining, barking trying to get at the other dogs, staring, jumping around. I was worried that my puppy would freak out because she had a bad experience with a big husky once. But using Michael Ellis' techniques with confidence building and also (luckily) finding a dog that she played with very well, she walked in there and stayed in a down for the 2 hours with any trouble. 

The goal for any dog is not friendliness. It's aloofness. You want a dog that is rock solid and doesn't care if there are 10 dogs around, or people walking around, bikes and skateboards, cash register sounds going off, etc. A dog that will be focused on you. And call it "attention", "focus", "engagement", or whatever but Michael Ellis' method of obedience training a puppy is to build engagement first, THEN start the actual commands, which are very easy once you have the dog's attention. 
The key to doing is to take 2-3 weeks (or more if time allows) and just start going random places and feeding your puppy (or playing if they are toy driven). I.E. go to a brand new park you've never been to, get the dog to look at you by calling his name (don't worry about commands now but if you have a watch or look command you can use it), once he looks at you, have the HIDDEN (cannot be seen) toy come out with enthusiasm after you mark with "Yes!". It turns into playtime. It's hard to go into detail but the DVD has all that you need. (Power of playing tug/Power of training with food) ONCE the engagement starts, your dog is not to look away. If the dog looks away, correction with no and when it refocuses, mark with YES and present the tug or in most puppies' cases, Food treats. 
This is a high energy, high focus exercise. You can do it for 5 minutes if you want. Then you end by saying "Done" and picking the puppy up and leaving. 

Note that there is no allowing your dog to go sniffing, wandering or exploring. The idea is that you are training fun engagement in about a thousand places and things with the puppy getting used to ignoring it. New sounds, things, place, etc. become like furniture. This is the attitude that you want to instill in the puppy. 


From 7 weeks I worked on engagement with my puppy and all my training was done on my front yard and the park across my house. There is no shortage of people walking by with their dogs, little kids on their bikes, RC helicopters, soccer matches, cars, etc. By taking 2-3 weeks (even just 1 week, everyday) where you focus on getting the dog to play with you in new environment is a huge step in getting the dog conditioned to being okay in new environments. 

Cliffnotes: Take 2 weeks and go to new places each day and just engage in play sessions with your dog. Do not let the dog lose focus on playing with you. End the play session by leaving immediately. No exploring, no sniffing. 




Also, I would address and correct the barking. Barking should not be allowed at all. GSDs are vocal but my dog doesnt bark or make any growling noises at all. It doesn't make them weak or suppress them, you can later teach them to bark on command. I tolerate them barking if someone approaches but like any other command or behavior, she needs to stop the minute I tell her enough. Barking is a behavior that is self reinforcing, so barking and whining I give some tough love and tell her to cut it out. 

It sounds like Jag has been socialized and I dont think this is an aggressive or "challenge" issue but a distraction issue. Too much is going on, there is a lack of engagement between the dog and you while in this environment. All the other stuff like barking, staring ,etc. is an uncontrollable responses (and expected) from a puppy in a highly stimulating environment. Which brings me to my final point. Trying to DISTRACT the puppy in this kind of environment hardly ever works and I always found that advice to be kind of hokey. Distracting your puppy away from another distraction (ie. with food) only works if the what you have is valued higher than what he is currently focused on. You can control this "ratio" by practicing in lower distracting environments but with some dogs, they will never prize food or even toys higher than what is going on around them, especially other dogs they can meet and play with, etc. In these situations, corrections are necessary and let the dog know what they cannot do. 
6months is still a puppy so dont be too hard on him (I dont think you are) but at that age they are capable of receiving a correction and knowing what is NOT to be done.

EDIT: Sorry meant grim but I wrote your username instead.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our pups sound very similar, lots of barking and he thinks he's the king of the world. I'm not training him, the wife is and she is very engaging with him. Lots of animation and vocalisation from her in order to keep him focused. He is 5.5 month old.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Very nice post pancake! But what do you do if your dog doesn't respond to corrections? My dog doesn't(almost 5 months old)... Jag, does Grim?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lauri's posts and like the suggestions Pancake has outlined.

One thing I can say is, dogs like to sometimes humiliate and embarrass us, at the most inoportune times) Classes can be one of them

New place , new things, (altho the petsmart thing is beyond me , I can see alot of first time dogs to obed classes going a tad over the top.

The barking to me, sounds like frustration at not getting what he wants so he is vocalizing it..And YES he IS still a puppy And go thru those wonky stages of knowing everything, and the next day blowing you off like you don't exist.


I especially like this posted by Pancake



> The goal for any dog is not friendliness. It's aloofness. You want a dog that is rock solid and doesn't care if there are 10 dogs around, or people walking around, bikes and skateboards, cash register sounds going off, etc. A dog that will be focused on you. And call it "attention", "focus", "engagement", or whatever but Michael Ellis' method of obedience training a puppy is to build engagement first, THEN start the actual commands, which are very easy once you have the dog's attention.


By the time I go into a class, I want the above^^ Doesn't have to be 'perfect' but I don't want a butthead either

I really think the 'boys" mature later than the girls, I think pancake gave you some good ideas to work on and I'd try a few.

And hey I know what it's like to walk into a class with the big bad gsd, and have everyone give "you" (general you) the 'stink eye' LOL..It disappears after a few classes when people realize the big bad wolf isn't going to eat their dog


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Jag said:


> GREAT!  OK, so maybe he's going into the 'jerk' phase. I won't deny that if a dog challenged him he'd take it to the mat in a heart beat. That was clear when he didn't like the one dog acting dominantly to the other. They were across the room, though, so I didn't have to worry about it. When he plays with his pug, they stare at each other then go tearing around together. Also, he wasn't constantly staring at one dog or another..... just watching all of them at different times. Every dog we walked by, though, the owner would pull their dog closer to them. I don't think he realized he was doing anything wrong, though. I've seen him posture (and he did it once in class), and that just wasn't his body language. He always seems chilled (mentally... like "I'm in control" attitude), not reactive in any way shape or form. I wonder if he's announcing himself or something. Either way, it's nonsense, and he's irritating me. Especially with all the blowing me off to do what he wanted to do (which I think is to play with the other dogs). He was born this way, though. His breeder even said "Grim likes things his way. Grim rules his world, and those are the rules he plays by." Something to that effect. I found this to be true very fast. He's very hard headed. I don't think he should disrupt the class, and I did about everything I knew how to do to try to get his attention. Nothing worked. He wanted to try to interact with the other dogs, and that's what he did pretty much the entire class. :headbang: If I corrected him for it and got more demanding that he look at me, he griped at me. One time he looked me dead in the eye and told me exactly what he thought of me correcting him.  Didn't stop me from doing it, though. If I can get through this class with him.....
> 
> How did you distract Havoc?? You said he started acting on it at 10 months... but when did he start staring? Did he have a rigid posture when he was staring? Now I'm getting more worried than annoyed with him, because I did everything but stand on my head and got nothing. I even moved in front of him and physically turned his head away. I guess I'll try steak pieces next week. He really loves cheese, too. I have saved it for training treats only, and he acted like he couldn't care less.


First I really like pancake's post lots of good advice. Second I may be way off in comparing Grim to Havoc, Havoc was never bubbly, friendly, wanting to interact with other people or dogs. Havoc did start staring at about 6 months, it wasn't rigid or anything to start, just direct eye contact. Also started to show a lot of territorial behavior as well, when I spoke with my breeder about it she said to not kid myself, that he was testing. She said he may be bluffing now but as he ages it won't be bluffing. IMO you really need to work on engagement and building drive, right now it sounds like he has very little. The Michael Ellis videos are great, also would suggest Control Unleahed (book.) I was very fortunate in that Havoc has always had a TON of drive, so it was super easy to keep him engaged when I needed it. The part I had trouble with was when he wasn't engaged and working he would create his own "games" (lets see who wants to fight! lol)

Are you still thinking of doing protection sports with him? Have you found a club?

The barking, I don't know. I've never had to deal with that issue, if it were me personally it would be squashed immediately. I find my dog barking at me and "talking back" to be incredibly annoying (just a personal thing, if you don't mind it then don't worry about it.) Havoc has tried it once or twice, given me a "toy" (or piece of garbage or whatever) when I am lying on the couch and then obnoxiuosly barking at me when I didn't throw it. The only thing worse than Havoc's stink eye, is my stink eye lol.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Some very good info. here, thank you!! I will be getting some DVD's and start working on the suggestions of taking him out and him only focusing on me. 

Carriesue- Grim will 'take' a correction. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes he chews me out about it (like today).  He's on a prong collar now because he was still dragging me all over and not responding to any of the many suggestions to get him to stop pulling. Now the pulling is over. However, his attitude remains, although he's better. 

He doesn't go for training at Petsmart. It's just one of the places I can take him where he's out of the house. I drive him 2 hours to a good training facility. I don't think he's an angel, either. :laugh: I love him to death, sure... but I've never thought he was an angel! 

He did the sit/stand exercise just fine, though. About 10 times, then he was done so he flopped down on the floor with a huff with his back to me. He also did another exercise OK. He was highly distracted, though. Not just by living things, either. A mirror caught his eye and he was staring at that. He also wanted to investigate every single thing in there. Maybe next week with it not being a 'new' place he'll be different. He's just confused me. I've taken him many different places and he's had no such reaction. What got into him I don't know. I'm really wondering if he's just changing. It's going to be colder than heck this week (tomorrow has a high of 15) but we're going anyway. I got a new coat (like a Carhart) and a new pair of hiking boots for walking him and going to the club. So I'll be prepared. I got him a new tug, too. 

You know, it just hit me. What if the change in people's reactions to him is driving him to be so mouthy? Maybe he likes freaking them out?? I just can't figure this out. Last week he was the same pup, and since Saturday he's like a different pup. I've never seen this dramatic of a change in a dog. He's still happy... but that mouth! 

I did find a club, just haven't been yet. Lots of weather issues, then Saturday night he was up with bad diarrhea. (Blue didn't agree with him at all!) I don't know about lack of drive, though. He goes forever! Luckily his pug will play with him and help get some of it out, but not nearly enough. I don't get the interest in the dogs. He ignores all that we encounter on walks. Maybe he's just got a stick shoved somewhere, I dunno. The only thing he's become territorial about his his kennels. When we put the new one together, his pug tried to go in and he shoved her out of the way and went in it and sat. Like he was claiming it. He won't let her in any of them.


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## Finnick<3 (Oct 29, 2012)

I started seeing similar behavior in Finn at about 5 months. I tried redirecting and tons of other things with little or no results. What finally worked for us was removing him from the situation which he hates because he wants to be with the other dogs and me. I have left the park, crated him at our club, put him in the car by himself then I go back and continue what we were suppose to be doing together by myself. OMG does he hate that. He soon decided he'd rather behave and be with me participating than be alone and bored.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Drive and energy are two different things I would take him to a (good) club, sport people look at this stuff way different than pet people.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder if he needs to be mentally exercised more. I know you can't do it right now because of the snow, but a good tracking session before obedience will put the dog in a good state of mind. One reason we track first, the dog needs mental stimulation to track and after that, obedience is usually better for the higher drive dogs. 
Now that you can tug with him, I'd do it as much as possible! LOL....It helps get out the energy too. Rear end awareness exercises work both mind and body. 
Grims puppy pass is now gone, I think he is aware of it!
I would get the book Control Unleashed and work on some of the exercises in it. The "go to your place" and LAT would be a good start.


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## glinny (Sep 14, 2011)

We spent a lot of time at Obedience classes on focus. Treat when your puppy looks into your eyes. Wait to treat for longer periods of time. We held the treat by our nose to get the puppy to start focusing. Later we could move the treat out to arms length without breaking focus. One class we attended had a dog that barked constantly. About half way through the first class the trainer got a spray bottle of water and had the owner spray the dog when he barked. He had calmed down pretty good by the end of class. The next week he got sprayed twice and was quiet the rest of the class.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

He sounds like a good dog any ways. I like these barky dogs as they are usually very confident. I wouldn't try to stop it but I'd rather try to control it. He is young and will try and test you and you should up your game and show him what you want. Never get upset by what somebody says about your dog. You are there to train your dog not argue over little things. Be calm and confident with the pup and the people there and it'll be better.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Jane, I just ordered the tracking book that Lisa recommended. I'll order the book you listed, also. I think he's bored, too. He's like a tornado in the house sometimes. Looking for anything and everything to mess with. Like the doors at Petsmart. :crazy: It's so much colder up here! However, it's become clear that just having him sit and look me in the eye isn't really getting his focus. Not when there are distractions. I was mostly disappointed because he'll do all of this stuff at home just fine. Then he goes and acts like a maniac in class. When I'm working with him outside of class, he's eager to do whatever I want him to. Picks things up right away. I think he needs a good dose of correction for blowing me off, though. Not to mention the back talking. I'm seeing an E-collar in his future. I'm not going to keep arguing with him over who is in control.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Focus is the key. Getting them to focus and stay focused. We did an exercise in one of the classes..the teacher called it the auto check in. We would stand there completely ignoring the dog, when the dog looked at us, they got a treat. This was repeated over and over again followed by a follow me exercise. My dog got so good at the auto check in that I was afraid that it would confuse her if I got her in any sport. When we did the follow me exercise, the trainer told everyone that there was no way that I could lose Robyn...she followed me and checked in on a regular basis and it didn't matter how many dogs were around.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MadLab said:


> . I like these barky dogs as they are usually very confident. I wouldn't try to stop it but I'd rather try to control it.


The quiet ones are the confident ones and the barky ones need to build up there confidence.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I had almost the exact same first formal class after puppy class except for the curtain it was a different room. It was rough, embarrassing, stressful and far from enjoyable. I kept it going but after the trainer labelled Gaia as aggressive I didn't get much support and everyone kept their distance. 

We didn't have any stare downs just a lot of barking, vocalizing and really wanting to play with the other dogs. Once we joined a club I noticed a big difference in how I was taught to handle her and how she responded to me. With her age she all but ignores other dogs so its much easier to keep her focus.

Best of luck with your next class.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would get a tug, keep it high value(ball on string or a synthetic two handle tug) and use it instead of food for training. Food is great for teaching positions and lower drive exercises. Tug/ball is good for getting the positions in a snappy movement and reward to get out some pent up energy. Only use them during training and when you bring him to the shops/or whereever, have that toy on you and ask for behaviors and positions to engage him. Soon he'll see that _you_ are more exciting than what he's barking to get at. 
One thing I've done when training with Karlo, is not have him engage with others or other dogs, because he needed to look to me for his excitement. Except at home when he had free time. But he's never given me problems and is pretty handler sensitive.Yet during protection, he still tends to blow me off when we haven't been to club for a couple weeks...extremely high value that I have to correct.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I was disappointed that the trainer was ready to give up on you two over him barking. I want a trainer who wants to work through those challenges with me.

There were plenty of times when Rusty made me want to crawl under a rock. I am not an emotional person but I shed a few tears after class one night. lol I swear to this day aliens invaded his body that night!

Wear his little butt out before class...withhold a meal so he will work for his treats.

Regarding the staring I have to watch my boy with that because he's not being playful. I step in front of him & ask for "watch me" or an abrupt "hey" to get his attention. There was a Doberman in class that he despised...the feeling was mutual for the Doberman.

Regarding the comment...let it go. I have found dog people are very opinionated. LOL It will not be the last another dog owner says something to irk you

I also think just because a 6 month old looks like an adult they are still a puppy...immature.

We are cheering for you...get back to class with your pup & kick some butt!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *MadLab*
> _. I like these barky dogs as they are usually very confident. I wouldn't try to stop it but I'd rather try to control it.
> 
> _
> llombardo said...The quiet ones are the confident ones and the barky ones need to build up there confidence.


I think a good dog for training likes to bark, likes to search/explore, likes to bite and has lots of energy. 

I have found the more dominant/confident dogs like to bark. That's my experience. I'm sure dogs bark for other reasons like insecurity sometimes. It's hard to generalise about dogs as they are all so different.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Barking is leaking....they need to get out that energy, and it goes into whining or barking. I have to correct it. Every time I give a command it is with the word quiet...sitquiet platzquiet fussquiet helperstepbackquiet. This is only during protection, Karlo leaks and barks. But he does know after one or two corrections that quiet gets the reward.
During other times he's fine.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

I had the same issue with Schatzi in her puppy class. After 2 classes we dropped out and I bought the Michael Ellis DVDs and a few books. I did my homework, watch YouTube videos, and hired a trainer to come over once a month. I trained Schatzi at home, walks, parks, and anywhere we went. I think the last place you want to train a GSD is at Petco. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

lennoxbradley88 said:


> I had the same issue with Schatzi in her puppy class. After 2 classes we dropped out and I bought the Michael Ellis DVDs and a few books. I did my homework, watch YouTube videos, and hired a trainer to come over once a month. I trained Schatzi at home, walks, parks, and anywhere we went.* I think the last place you want to train a GSD is at Petco*.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


He stated petco was a different incident, they train at another facility.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Get this dog into IPO. These problems will go away pretty quick. It is my opinion that higher drive dogs need to be worked in disciplines that properly satisfy their drive levels. Additionally, the training directors are used to hard dogs and will give you guidance on how to correct / redirect him appropriate for his level. I actually like to see really mouthy young dogs that hit the field with a vengance.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

robk said:


> Get this dog into IPO. These problems will go away pretty quick. It is my opinion that higher drive dogs need to be worked in disciplines that properly satisfy their drive levels. Additionally, the training directors are used to hard dogs and will give you guidance on how to correct / redirect him appropriate for his level. I actually like to see really mouthy young dogs that hit the field with a vengance.


Completely agree, but the weather right now isn't the best for training w/ the IPO club. And some obedience classes just don't 'get' this type of dog!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Courtney- I don't think she was giving up on him. I think she just wanted me to get control of his mouth. Maybe she was seeing how I'd do that. I told her about him before he went to the class. I don't think she's a bad trainer at all. I've already been able to teach him things that I wondered "how do people get their dogs to do that?" It's just that he totally went nuts in there. I usually walk him to wear him out before I try to do obedience with him. Had it not started snowing like crazy on the way, I'd have had time to do that. He had too much kennel time on the way....so he was totally "re-fueled" by the time we got there. The older he gets, I notice him being more obnoxious when he's bored or has too much energy. He's used to playing with the pug. I almost wish I could separate them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MadLab said:


> I think a good dog for training likes to bark, likes to search/explore, likes to bite and has lots of energy.
> 
> I have found the more dominant/confident dogs like to bark. That's my experience. I'm sure dogs bark for other reasons like insecurity sometimes. It's hard to generalise about dogs as they are all so different.


Barking while training in a sport or when working is completely different then going to the pet store or the park or even at home.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Jag said:


> Courtney- I don't think she was giving up on him. I think she just wanted me to get control of his mouth. Maybe she was seeing how I'd do that. I told her about him before he went to the class. I don't think she's a bad trainer at all. I've already been able to teach him things that I wondered "how do people get their dogs to do that?" It's just that he totally went nuts in there. I usually walk him to wear him out before I try to do obedience with him. Had it not started snowing like crazy on the way, I'd have had time to do that. He had too much kennel time on the way....so he was totally "re-fueled" by the time we got there. The older he gets, I notice him being more obnoxious when he's bored or has too much energy. He's used to playing with the pug. I almost wish I could separate them.


I went back & re-read and misunderstood...thank you for follow-up


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

One other thing, I did'nt see on here is, when you go to class, try and stay calm because your dog knows you are stressed and that makes it worse. Alot of times our dogs will do things in class that make us feel bad but keep training and it will get better. Don't let what other people say in class bother you because nobodys dog is perfect. I think the trainer had you stressed before you even got in the door.Sounds like your dog is just trying to demand he go play with the other dogs.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am no expert or even close but I can tell you that staring at other dogs in class did not work out well for me and Stella. It started when she was young...just wanting to play and just general excitement. And the barking and jumping too. Now at 19 months she has mastered "the stare" and other dogs do not like it at all. She no longer has the "puppy pass" that she had when she was younger. People are not too fond of a barking, lunging GSD either. I did do a lot of focus stuff with her when she was younger but apparently not enough. I thought the best thing for her was to be able to meet and greet other dogs. I would do it differently if I could redo things.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My point was that at 6 months old Grim is definitely maturing. He might still be a puppy in his brain, but he looks like a full grown dog. My boy matured a little later, about 8 months, and I thought he was the sweetest dog ever until that point. I also thought that he could do no wrong and all he wanted to do was play...but there would be eye contact, and extended eye contact caused other dogs to react to him, which then caused him to react to them, and the one thing you have to realize is that the GSD is always going to be the aggressor to other people watching (I'm talking dog parks).

I wasn't saying that Grim has any issues...but you definitely need to start looking at him differently. Don't allow him to show you one day that he's a big boy and he can take things into his own hands. It's not fun to be peeling your dog off of another one. And if you keep thinking that his stare downs are always for play...you'll never realize until its too late that its not for play. My boy has always been the "sneaky" dominator. He didn't out right start fights, but he'd do the staring and the putting his chin on other dog's backs. He'd herd with his butt and do all the little things to tell a dog he's the boss...without starting a fight. But once in a while that dog would start a fight...and guess who wouldn't back down from one of those. It's never fun, so I suggest you start learning to control some of those dog language things that we don't quite understand.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I read a half a dozen posts on here and have to comment. (then, time permitting I will read the rest)

YOUR DOG IS A PUPPY! 

You are doing fine. It is embarrassing, but your dog is going through a phase. What you need to dog is continue with patience and consistency and maybe back up a few steps, and plow on. 

Yes, this was his first time at this class and he was very, very distracted. It happens. Lots of six month old pups are butt-heads at times. 

One more thing though, puppy classes dogs are generally permitted to get up close and personal -- greet everyone. Puppy classes are for 10-12 week puppies and go for 6-8 weeks. Your pup is beyond the beginning puppy class. After that class, dog interaction is generally frowned upon or totally not allowed. Even in basic obedience classes, the dog owners are coming from different viewpoints. Some want a well-behaved pet they can take on walks, some want a dog that will go to doggy day care or dog parks, and some want a dog that will go to shows and compete. Most classes are geared toward the show people, because they are the people that keep coming back. 

And though the class is fine for all the types of people, how the individuals feel about letting their dogs interact will differ. Show people do not want their dogs to make doggy-friends in dog school. That is not what they are there for, and they certainly do not want their dog thinking it is play time when they are at shows. 

So the expectation that the dog should be able to greet everyone is maybe not realistic. 

Do not give commands more than once. Tell your dog firmly to come, and if he does not, use the leash to give him a tug to get his attention on you. If you give him a command more than once, then he will learn to tune you out. Tell him to SIT and if he doesn't help him get into the position. Tell him to COME and show him the treat, if he does not use the leash. The next time don't go so far away. You should not be across the room at this point. You should start in close so he has less distractions between you and himself. Do not use this command at this point if he is not connected by a lead. 

Tell him what you want.
Give him the opportunity to comply. 
Help him comply. 
Praise.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks, Selzer! I didn't know that they wouldn't be allowed to 'greet' (I've never taken a dog to classes before) so part of that was my fault. I actually did put him in a sit a few times when he was ignoring me... he just didn't stay there. The 'come' from across the training area was part of an exercise. Of course, at home he did it fine. We started with his leash on at a couple feet and he came right away. Then the instructor took each dog (in turns) to the other end of the gated area and we were to go to the other side and call them. We were the last ones to do this, and he was the only dog to not come flying when called.  It honestly looked like I'd never, ever worked with him.  

We're going to have to make a trip to the store for steak, and I'm going to be taking him out with the goal of him only paying attention to me. Up until now, he was glued to me. I guess he found out that he can do it all on his own and cutting the cord is fun?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ugh, he has discovered his big boy voice and is being a butthead with it.
Remember a couple months ago you said he didn't bark and I told you to give it a couple of months? 
You can train him through this. It will be challenging, but you can do it.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

He sounds, as others have said, to be a typical, boisterous, confident male shepherd pup. I would never expect a 6 month old, relatively untrained dog to come to it's owner the first day of its first class. I imagine as he started acting out of character you got frustrated, worried and concerned what others were thinking. Not to mention you had just driven 2 hours in the snow, your pup didn't get a walk, it's your fault, what is wrong with my puppy and so on. So you were also acting out of character, which probably made him worse.
Relax next time. If he acts bad he acts bad, just deal with it each time. Do everything you've said so far - get him steak, work on engagement with you, practise in new environments. 
Do not expect him to visit with the other dogs - that is not what he is there to do, he is there to learn. Most training groups/clubs/classes do not allow the dogs to visit during class - whether their friendly or not. And I would get on the staring thing. It generally is a challenge, and will lead to being a challenge, and other dogs don't like it and take it as a challenge. 
I think you know what you're doing and starting to see whats going on. Be patient with your pup and work through it. Just think, he has always been able to visit other dogs when near them, and all of a sudden he is in a room full of other dogs and can't visit. Of course he threw a hissy fit, he sounds like my Eli who is a spoiled rotten brat lol. A few weeks from now he will be much better I'm sure, once the excitement of the class wears off


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know, there are a couple of people in classes who have their dogs 100% trained before they ever show up on the first day. They are there simply to grumble at the rest of us who have the audacity to own a young dog that is not perfect. Occasionally their dogs do stupid shtuff too. And it is really fun to watch when it happens, because they really can't take it, not at all.

The rest of us are there because we or our dogs or both NEED classes. 

I can teach my dogs the basics at home, but I don't. I am bad, I need to actually have that class to force me to do what I should at least during the class time. Even so, _most of the time_, my dogs act pretty good. Occasionally, there is some dog who acts way worse than mine, and it makes me feel better about my dogs for a couple of seconds. Once in a great while there is one that is actually dangerous to me or my dogs. But instead of sneering at the owners with disgust or incredulity, I make sure my dog is safe, but give that owner credit for getting out there and working with the dog. They have my respect because they are on a tough road and are doing their best. 

Some of the people will see your dog being a butthead, distracted, barking his heads off, and they will smile a little. Don't think they are thinking: "boy am I glad MY dog isn't doing that." Think they are thinking: "I remember when Pukie was acting just like that." Probably, most of the time that is true. 

Training classes are not for perfect dogs and perfect handlers. They are for works in progress. 

The dog world has its share of snobby people. But it also has a lot of good people. I sometimes go through basic a couple of times with a dog. If I don't think they are walking well enough on lead, then I will go through again with them. If there is nothing else available or I have two dogs that need training and can put two in classes on a given night and save gas, I will. Some of those dogs were probably repeat customers in the class. If you still feel like a sore thumb after four or five weeks, you might want to finish out the session and find another place to train.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, OK. Today I had to officially recognize that Grim is being a butthead. I was going through our 'class work' and did what the instructor wanted me to do at home. This was putting on his leash and leading him around the house (which isn't far, let me tell you!) with food in hand to get him to pick his head up off the floor when on lead. (He's been nose to the ground since day 1) Well... he barked at me a few times because he wanted to go out. It's colder than heck out today, and I wasn't taking him out for a walk in that. Besides, the exercise was to do this INSIDE to just get him used to not walking like that. Then he actually broke skin biting for the meat in my hand. Was jumping on me as we were walking. If not for the fact that it's a narrow path, he'd have knocked me down. When we worked on the other things, he again started barking at me... vocalizing, etc. I ignored him the first time, then started with the 'hush' again. He ignored that (or he really doesn't know what it means yet). So glad that we weren't in public again for that display. Yes, Grim found his bark. :crazy: I do believe it's "leaking" as he was really excited. He wouldn't tug with a rope or the ball on a rope. However, he LOVES socks. So we started with that, and I praised him to death for tugging on that. I got him a two handle tug before I got him, but it's in a box somewhere in the garage along with most of my stuff.  

Yes, you're right... I was mortified at his behavior and wondering how to fix it and if he would stop through the whole class. I'm sure he felt my tension. I am not usually tense when working with him. I love to work with him. However, I felt uneasy going to the class anyway (not the best with people I don't know) and the bad weather (almost wrecked before I got there)... I was stressed already. Also excited about the class, though. It's a good training facility. I want to have "that dog" that looks at you when you're working it or walking... that is quick to sit and down...somehow I've got to get all that energy that he's blowing off in every direction focused into what we're doing. Maybe he's too young, yet. I don't know. If he doesn't get us tossed out, I'd like to do more classes with him. This is an IPO prep type class (for us anyway, and the instructor knows that) so I've got to get his head on straight.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Goodness, this sounds just like Puppy when she was young. She would break skin with frustration too. In classes, she would either be too worked up to settle during instruction, or would bark/whine very loudly. 

What worked for me is going to class 30-40 minutes early, making sure I had lots of time so I didn't seem rushed. Find another place in the building that is enclosed but can still hear some commotions from class, and stay there with her for the 30 minutes so she can settle down and contain the emotions that were worked up during out 30 minute walk over. 

I have next to 0 experience with dogs though, so just sharing.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i had this with 2 pups i was raising at different times. each one got super bored at training classes for puppy and basic obedience.. barking, acting a fool, not listening, etc.. all the things your Grim is doing.. i was MORTIFIED at classes ... felt sooo embarrassed.. my trainer figured out the dogs in question were bored, once they learned the command they were done and wanting to move on. the more i stayed in the class the more the pups each acted out... so the trainer suggested we up to the next level and also start teaching some service commands (more mental exercise and upping the training) so that the pups couldnt get bored fast as we were learning twice as much in class and doing more mental exercise... some dogs are just so smart that once they get a command they are done, move on and hit the next level.. some dogs dont mind taking the slower classes... they are more lets hang and chill types... sounds like Grim is a lets get up an go type of pup, and between hitting that magical butthead stage at 6 months and being super smart he might be bored at puppy classes. normally puppy classes are for 2 months to 4 months, then 4 months is basic obedience.. depending on the trainers..my one dog was only in puppy classes for one month of training, then we did basic obedience at 4 months old then went to more mind training ,then next level then therapy training , agility then therapy again (a year and a half nonstop 3 nights a week lol)... he got super bored super fast- once he learned a command he was done, move on to the next one... maybe grim needs a higher level of training and no more puppy classes.... one of my dogs i actually stopped doing classes for a few months and we just did nothing but playing (sit for ball, down for stick etc still obedience training but not regimented and more fun like to break things up) once i did that an gave obedience classes a break for a fewmonths when we went back to class her attention was even better then before..

if his nose is always in the ground try tracking for now, its mental and physical exercise an might be a better outlet for his energy... dogs that normally excel at tracking are the ones that always have their noses buried in the ground....


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

The tracking book I ordered should be here by Friday. He's not in puppy kindergarten, we skipped that one. He's in a foundation class. I'd give him that he was bored, but he doesn't know it all yet. I waited on training him on anything but 'sit' and 'down' because I didn't want to mess him up for IPO. I've always thought he'd like tracking because he's always done every walk without looking up, BUT again I didn't want to mess it up for IPO. I've never taught a dog tracking. Since I read it's easier to 'catch a dog up' than to undo bad or incorrect training... we waited. The move made the wait longer, but I really do like where he's going. The class isn't too slow moving. It was a busy time with minimal "sit and listen" time. I was watching this guy in the class who's a helper in training at the club I am going to go to. How his dog was acting is what I want out of Grim. Quick to react, always looking at the handler, eager to do, etc. I don't know the ages of the other dogs, but I do believe Grim may be on the younger side. He seems to 'get' everything VERY quickly, but it means nothing if he can't do it outside of the house. It was clear in about ten seconds that my boy was miles away from the other dogs in terms of being able to focus on me, or caring what I wanted him to do. I didn't see that at home... but at home there's nothing more interesting going on at the time. We have work to do. It's not the instructor's problem at all. She gave me tips of things to work on. I'm actually thinking about doing some private instruction with her on the side to try to get him past this if the other stuff doesn't help.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

and what will you do if he just doesnt want to do IPO? sometimes, we see goals for our dogs and ourselves in one venue, and we try for that, but its always possible the calling for the dog isnt what we had in mind in the first place... just to keep in mind, its possible that IPO is not Grims calling, and maybe he would excel in something else.... i wanted my one dog to do fantastic at agility,i had all sorts of dreams of competing etc... we took agility classes twice a week, i practiced with her and practiced , at home , in the park, at class,..... one day a friend of mine was with me and her and while i was talking about our agility classes she asked if she could see us in action.. i was able to rent the local training facility (anyone can rent it there are 3 agility rings, one inside, 2 outside and you have access to sheep too for herding) and while we were at the facility doing our agility my friend when we were done said to me, maybe you should think about something else, she doesnt show the enthusiasm for the equipment , she is doing it for you, but she isnt showing that spark... it took a neutral person to open my eyes that my dog didnt like it,she was just doing it for me.... we did it a few more times to finish out the class, then we stopped .. even the trainer at the end said she wasnt having a good time, and for agility dogs having a good time was the key to them loving agility.. so we dabbled until we found what she loved to do... then that she did with gusto ....

all i am saying after rambling is maybe Grim might not want to be an IPO dog, maybe his future with you is doing some other type of sport...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

are you going to a place in MI? Or more local? Maybe the guy(helper in training) can give you some tips as well as the instructor.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

How come you're not training with the IPO helper/instructor at this point? I don't do Schutzhund, I'm getting a pup from some club members that do, and their dogs are definitely what you've described that you want. They start working extremely early with their dogs (they just had a litter and have a 13 week old) and that dog has amazing focus and starting obedience.

For someone with that goal in mind (I personally don't want/need that) you should be working with people that know how to get that out of their dogs. I'm not sure why you've started so late, but you have so I wouldn't expect that kind of obedience at this point. You'll probably be quite behind some of those dogs until the light bulb finally goes off in Grim and you also start working him the way Schutzhund people work their dogs.

By the way...the goals you have are awesome. I love watching that kind of focus and obedience, I just don't have the want to get it out of my own dog. But from training a dog for the first time for any kind of trialing, I can tell you that until you fully commit and start working with the people that will help you get there, your dog won't get to the level you want.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm going to Northfield in Michigan. You know, yesterday I was sure that Grim was just dying to meet/play with the other dogs without malice. Now, I'm not so sure. Maybe he was trying to start something, or at least let the other dogs know that he was the king. I'm used to him strutting around like he walks on water, but maybe now he's trying to let other dogs know it. It seems like overnight someone took my puppy and exchanged him for another puppy. I've never seen such a dramatic, sudden change in a dog. He's being to lippy and pushy towards me, even. He still does what I want him to do, but LOUDLY.  Honestly, I've never had a dog stare down another one except in play... so with me being preoccupied with trying to get him to be quiet and pay attention to me I may have missed bad intentions on his part. He was quick to correct the dog that barked at another one. 

The person in charge of the SchH club I plan to go to recommended this class in particular. To put a foundation for IPO on him. They can't train a total blank slate at the club, I think it would be detrimental time wise. He's late because I couldn't find a decent trainer where I was at, then we moved, then the holidays...so here we are. Prior to Grim turning into a maniac, I could get him to sit and down in the middle of Petsmart or on walks or where ever. He walked past dogs all the time without giving them the time of day. I'd stop for a meet a lot of times to make sure he was still OK with other dogs. He was always fine, but not overly interested. Like I said, this past weekend was the first time I'd seen him act this way. I've always trained my own dogs in the past, but I never had the goal of doing IPO, so how and when I trained them wasn't such a big deal.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How hungry was he when you went to class? I would use a very high value food, have him a bit hungry and also have a ball on a rope or a tug to help him learn to engage you and stop thinking about everything else. 

I would be working on focus in many different locations and under a lot of distractions. 

Hopefully the weather will cooperate this weekend and you can meet with the club.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jag said:


> The person in charge of the SchH club I plan to go to recommended this class in particular. To put a foundation for IPO on him. They can't train a total blank slate at the club, I think it would be detrimental time wise.


That's so ridiculous...sorry but it would take them 20 minutes to show you the type of obedience you should be working on with him at this age (and even earlier). I've incorporated a lot of "Schutzhund style" obedience into my obedience training and it takes 5 seconds for those people to give me a hint at how to train what it is I want...be it a solid go out, fast recall, perfect front. I wouldn't expect them to work with you for hours...no dog can take hours of obedience...but they should be able to teach you how they train their dogs from day one.

Like I've stated...the people that I know that do it...started with their puppy before she was even 8 weeks old. At 8 weeks old her littermates went to their homes and they really dove into training. They're already doing prey work, and a lot of obedience...all things that I plan on doing with my next dog...I also only started "hardcore" obedience at 6 months with my current dog and I can definitely see how it has set him back time wise.

I'm not trying to bad mouth the trainer or the club...just seems completely opposite of what I've seen from competitive obedience people in every venue. People that want to get UDX start at 8 weeks, people that want to do agility start at 8 weeks, people that do herding get their dogs out there at 8 weeks...its just weird that this club doesn't think they can help you at this point in your and Grim's training.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Hi, Lisa!  I'd have thought he was hungry, as he didn't eat at all before the class. We're going to start taking many, many trips to different places. He has such a love for cheese that I thought that would be the ticket. It wasn't. I got this meat lick stick that he loves, but that didn't hold under distraction, either. I'm going with steak pieces next week. The hot dog piece Adele gave me worked better than the cheese, but he was still distracted. I'm just glad he wasn't trying to take off after the other dogs, even when off lead. He just stood next to her for a few seconds... like "Hi, mom.. why are you over there? I'll just hang with this cool lady, OK?"


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> That's so ridiculous...sorry but it would take them 20 minutes to show you the type of obedience you should be working on with him at this age (and even earlier). I've incorporated a lot of "Schutzhund style" obedience into my obedience training and it takes 5 seconds for those people to give me a hint at how to train what it is I want...be it a solid go out, fast recall, perfect front. I wouldn't expect them to work with you for hours...no dog can take hours of obedience...but they should be able to teach you how they train their dogs from day one.
> 
> Like I've stated...the people that I know that do it...started with their puppy before she was even 8 weeks old. At 8 weeks old her littermates went to their homes and they really dove into training. They're already doing prey work, and a lot of obedience...all things that I plan on doing with my next dog...I also only started "hardcore" obedience at 6 months with my current dog and I can definitely see how it has set him back time wise.
> 
> I'm not trying to bad mouth the trainer or the club...just seems completely opposite of what I've seen from competitive obedience people in every venue. People that want to get UDX start at 8 weeks, people that want to do agility start at 8 weeks, people that do herding get their dogs out there at 8 weeks...its just weird that this club doesn't think they can help you at this point in your and Grim's training.


You're way off base, first off. I didn't even HAVE Grim at 8 weeks. We moved over Thanksgiving weekend. AFTER that is when I was invited to go to this club. During the Christmas holiday I couldn't make it because all my kids were home. Then bad weather cancelled it many times. Last weekend, Grim had really bad diarrhea from Blue food. Too bad to make him be in the car and go somewhere, etc. He needs a class. The class is geared towards the foundation he'll need for IPO. THEN in addition and after I can learn at the club. I haven't done IPO before, and neither have you. So why knock how this is going down for my dog? I'm grateful to be given a chance to even join a good, established club when I have NO experience at all. If I'd already been a member of a club and gotten my pup at 8 weeks, then maybe that's the way it would go. However, it's not how things went. I don't see an issue with the trainer, facility, or the club.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> started with their puppy before she was even 8 weeks old. At 8 weeks old her littermates went to their homes and they really dove into training. They're already doing prey work, and a lot of obedience...all things that I plan on doing with my next dog...I also only started "hardcore" obedience at 6 months with my current dog and I can definitely see how it has set him back time wise.


Adele is one of the best instructors in the area. I would imagine that Jag and you will do fine....this weather isn't conducive to get with an IPO club right now, so hit and miss with the snow/storms. 
You are in a good place to begin your journey. Not like you're set on trialing for his B as soon as he's of age...there is no rush!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Nope, I'm not in any rush! It's more about the journey with him for me. I like Adele. She's no non-sense from what I can tell. Like I said previously, she's already shown me (and I've shown Grim successfully) how to do things that I didn't know how to teach. If she wasn't a good trainer, I don't think she'd have caught the 'stare' on the way out. I certainly didn't, and I live and breathe Grim. I look forward to going to the class with him. I don't get out of the house too much anymore where I'm interacting with anyone. The person from the club that was there also gave me a couple of suggestions watching me work with Grim. He's really nice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Not a schutzhund expert, but another thread they were saying a lot of schutzhund people do not start training their pups until they are a year old. 

It's winter time. Getting out there and getting comfortable working in close quarters with dogs sounds like a good thing for any venue. Building drive and focus can be done in any class setting. 


And yeah it is cold here too. I can see how that puts a damper on outdoor training.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Not a schutzhund expert, but another thread they were saying a lot of schutzhund people do not start training their pups until they are a year old.
> 
> It's winter time. Getting out there and getting comfortable working in close quarters with dogs sounds like a good thing for any venue. Building drive and focus can be done in any class setting.
> 
> ...


Yeah, winter isn't the best time to start trying to get to a club in the north. I had to go out and buy a new coat (water resistant and tough on the outside to deal with muddy paws, etc.) and new boots so I can get him out in cruddy weather. (My old hiking boots are 'in a box somewhere') The weather started out OK, then I hit a severe squall right after the Michigan state line. It continued the rest of the way. I'm now driving a full size van, so the wind effects it, and it slides like a sled with the rear wheel drive. Under the new snow was ice. I hope spring comes early... or at least some of the snow storms stop. It seems like they wait until the weekend to hit!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

well, you're lucky you are on that side of the state...we're full out lake effect snow here. It usually stops about 2 counties in from Lake Michigan. I'm in a shoreline county. Snowday predicted for tomorrow too.

I give you credit for travelling as far as you are for ob training this time of year. Not fun til you get there(or home)!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Well, I'm sure some people think I'm nuts for doing it. However, I wanted him to get really good training. The gas cost is high, but he's worth it. I don't drive too much anymore (since I don't work anymore), so I figure it's no different than what I'd spend driving to work. Actually, I'd drive even further if that's what it took. I was lucky that they had an afternoon class. Driving in bad weather in daylight is much easier. I'm lucky that we miss that 'lake effect' snow. I figure winter doesn't last forever, though, so we'll be OK. I did forget to take emergency blankets, though. I won't forget to stock my van before taking the next trip up north. 

I also didn't take anything for tug. I felt really bad for Grim when everyone else took out a tug toy. Bad Jag.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There was a place closer to Jag that I also recommended, but they train in a style very different from me. Much easier to work with someone if we are both speaking the same language.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Jag said:


> Carriesue- Grim will 'take' a correction. Sometimes it's successful, sometimes he chews me out about it (like today).  He's on a prong collar now because he was still dragging me all over and not responding to any of the many suggestions to get him to stop pulling. Now the pulling is over. However, his attitude remains, although he's better.


At least he responds, lol! Ollie doesn't respond to anything I do... A loud NO, leash pop, saying AH, even a quick scruff tug here and there... No affect at all, doesn't phase him in the slightest. Maybe he'd be a good schutzhund prospect. 

I wish you luck with your cute little hellion, I need it with mine LOL. . At least people are offering some help to you! :crazy:

Btw we need new pics of Grim!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

lhczth said:


> There was a place closer to Jag that I also recommended, but they train in a style very different from me. Much easier to work with someone if we are both speaking the same language.


I should have clarified that, but I honestly already forgot.  I also like that they do different things (like agility) at this place. To me, it was important to start on the same page because everything is going to be new to me already. I am busting at the seams excited about getting up to the club! 



Carriesue said:


> At least he responds, lol! Ollie doesn't respond to anything I do... A loud NO, leash pop, saying AH, even a quick scruff tug here and there... No affect at all, doesn't phase him in the slightest. Maybe he'd be a good schutzhund prospect.
> 
> I wish you luck with your cute little hellion, I need it with mine LOL. . At least people are offering some help to you! :crazy:
> 
> Btw we need new pics of Grim!


I'd rather have no response then have the griping!  He doesn't always do what I want whether he's corrected or not...so don't get excited, LOL! I will try to get pics of Grim tomorrow. Starting new rounds of doctor's appointments here.... hopefully I won't have to go through 10 different docs in each specialty to find a good one!  Good luck with your little hellion, too! I have found a lot of help in this thread to try to fix his little red wagon. I swear someone switched dogs on me overnight!


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## triangulum (Dec 14, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> At least he responds, lol! Ollie doesn't respond to anything I do... A loud NO, leash pop, saying AH, even a quick scruff tug here and there... No affect at all, doesn't phase him in the slightest.


If the correction has no effect whatsoever, is it actually a correction or just a mild irritation? I'm not asking this to be snarky, I've never done P+ training and am genuinely curious.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

triangulum said:


> If the correction has no effect whatsoever, is it actually a correction or just a mild irritation? I'm not asking this to be snarky, I've never done P+ training and am genuinely curious.


I haven't done that type of training either and I don't plan to with him... I guess what I meant is my "attempts" at corrections have no effect. I'm discovering that I have a hard dog, lol... At one point I was even worried he was deaf but he isn't just nothing phases him or scares him. Only way I can get through to him is with food.


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## triangulum (Dec 14, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> I haven't done that type of training either and I don't plan to with him... I guess what I meant is my "attempts" at corrections have no effect. I'm discovering that I have a hard dog, lol... At one point I was even worried he was deaf but he isn't just nothing phases him or scares him. Only way I can get through to him is with food.


If you're using leash pops and scruffing, you're using positive punishment (P+) training methods.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Carriesue said:


> At least he responds, lol! Ollie doesn't respond to anything I do... A loud NO, leash pop, saying AH, even a quick scruff tug here and there... No affect at all, doesn't phase him in the slightest. Maybe he'd be a good schutzhund prospect.


If it isn't working, then try something different. He's desensitized to your "nagging corrections", it sounds like. 

Have you have tried clickers and a treat he goes nuts over, or a toy he can't live without?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> If it isn't working, then try something different. He's desensitized to your "nagging corrections", it sounds like.
> 
> Have you have tried clickers and a treat he goes nuts over, or a toy he can't live without?


I don't nag him... I tried those corrections a few times when I was trying to get him to stop harassing my Chi mix(constantly trying to chase and nip her legs even though he is on lead around her, herd her basically with puppy gusto) but it didn't work so I no longer do it. I do positive "marker" training with him(because I'm always losing the clicker)... The problem is my Chi is very timid, fearful and is constantly running from him, he doesn't bother my Pom or strange small dogs - it's just her. We're working on doing positive training with her around him trying to get her to see him as a good thing. I do try redirecting with him but he is not toy motivated and food works but only if I'm constantly feeding him around her.

I tried the corrections a few times to see if it would have any effect, he didn't even notice so I stopped. Someone made a comment about training with corrections, so I just asked how do you do that if your dog doesn't respond to them. I was mostly just curious, I realize my dog is young yet and correcting him for something he doesn't know not to do is pointless.

Also this isn't my thread so I'm not going to talk about it more here but feel free to PM if you have any other suggestions!


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## triangulum (Dec 14, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> I tried the corrections a few times to see if it would have any effect, he didn't even notice so I stopped.


No offense but isn't that the definition of a nagging correction? I'm not as adverse to prong collars as most clicker training nerds but if you're going to use positive punishment, don't you need to correct the dog hard enough to make an impact? If food or toy rewards have an effect where a "correction" doesn't, I'd venure to say that corrections were utilized far too early. And if your correction has no effect whatsoever on the dog, the dog obviously doesn't view it as a correction. As far as I understand (and I could be completely wrong), anything less than that is just nagging and desensitizing your dog. I've seen a lot of trainers online and in person say that newbie handlers 1) use corrections way too soon and 2) when corrections are given, they aren't nearly harsh enough.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

triangulum said:


> No offense but isn't that the definition of a nagging correction? I'm not as adverse to prong collars as most clicker training nerds but if you're going to use positive punishment, don't you need to correct the dog hard enough to make an impact? If food or toy rewards have an effect where a "correction" doesn't, I'd venure to say that corrections were utilized far too early. And if your correction has no effect whatsoever on the dog, the dog obviously doesn't view it as a correction. As far as I understand (and I could be completely wrong), anything less than that is just nagging and desensitizing your dog. I've seen a lot of trainers online and in person say that newbie handlers 1) use corrections way too soon and 2) when corrections are given, they aren't nearly harsh enough.


I understand what you both mean now, sorry I misunderstood. And you're probably right... I wasn't saying it was correct what I did, I got frustrated because my redirecting wasn't working. Also he's barely 5 months, I don't really think I can justify any harsher corrections right now especially since I'm trying to teach him not to do something, not correcting him for something he already knows not to do.


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