# Fearful Agression in 11.5 MO GSSD (to service dogs)



## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

Hello,
We paid a professional trainer to train a German Shepherd Service Dog for Seizure Alert for our two Sons (10 and 15). She was delivered April 9th at age 10 months. She was not house trained, which took 10 days to correct. On the 16th day, a Realtor came to our home she barked/growled at him. Ears back and cowering, tries to get away. She has done it for every visitor and the last time I brought her in public a man made eye contact and she did it to him. She even started doing it to our eldest Son (23) and my husband on occasion. We have contacted a new trainer that will come assess the situation in mid June. Please, any advice from more knowledgeable people about this? I have it on video and uploaded to youtube if that is allowed?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Who was the trainer? There is a "seizure alert" trainer out there that has moved from state to state and committed fraud.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

Not going to reveal who the trainer is, until I figure out with a new trainer if this can be fixed. We love our GSD and are wanting to keep her regardless of the outcome.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

I have learned a lot through research. I know that she is too young, most trainers wouldn't train any dog for Service Dog work until they are at least a year old. Also, I have reason to believe she was over crated. I was told by several trainers the only reason a dog would show fear aggression at 10 months is lack of socialization in early puppy months.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

It wouldn't let me post the video link until I reached 3 post... I know that seeing it will make it much easier than me explaining what is happening. This is Blue reacting to my oldest son walking in the room. She did the exact behavior to strangers who came here and the manager at the store as well. On leash or off, this is how she is acting when anyone except young and female members of our household make eye contact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBJwL-pAH0


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

PrayerOfFaith said:


> I was told by several trainers the only reason a dog would show fear aggression at 10 months is lack of socialization in early puppy months.


Could be the cause but I would disagree that it's the "only" cause. Genetics are going to play a much larger role in fear aggression than a lack of socialization. Poor nerves are genetic. My dog was a winter baby and had very little socialization in the early puppy months. He has zero fear aggression tendencies. He's overly social.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh boy . Sounds like this dog is not cut out for the job.
Some major nerve and confidence issues .

No dog should have been promoted as a "seizure alert" dog at 10 months of age. Not being house trained throws some suspicion on how much socialization this dog has had .

Who selected the dog ? You or the trainer?

Here is the problem and it is a big one --- if this dog is this fearful with fairly normal situations how is it going to act when one of your sons DOES have a seizure ? 

There are organizations which have genuinely qualified staff that either have a breeding program, are "pickers" , can raise a dog for the job , and can train , and will release the dog to the right match home , and will stand behind their "product" - including many in home training sessions .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and now that I've seen the video , this dog is not the right candidate for the job.


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

You really should let us know who the trainer is so others don't get duped. If your dog isn't even house broken it surely has never been trained at all. Your dog is not going to be suitable for the job it has been given. I hope this doesn't mean you will give up on the dog though, the problems you face can be worked through with patience - especially at a young age.

Look for a behaviorist in your area - not a trainer. 

Your dog sounds like it is very nervy as someone else already mentioned, she will likely never be an 'easy' dog - but that doesn't mean she can't be a great dog. Part of the nerves may come from how she was brought up. Since she wasn't even potty trained I'm going to assume that anything is on the table including abuse from the previous handler.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

I spoke with the Breeder, neither the Mom or Dad has shown aggression. The trainer took the whole litter and put them all out as service dogs for various jobs PTSD, Autism and Seizure Alert.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

I will not give her back, we love her and will do what it takes to get her to be the best she can be. Even if it means she has to be put in a crate when Emergency Responders need to come in our home. I do place her with my youngest Son who has seizures almost daily. She doesn't seem stressed by it.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

I agree, but if she was brought to public places to work, and had little contact with a variety of people in a normal home environment is what they mean.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I spoke with the Breeder, neither the Mom or Dad has shown aggression. The trainer took the whole litter and put them all out as service dogs for various jobs PTSD, Autism and Seizure Alert."

but this dog does show fear and avoidance and retreats to a corner and if the dog perceives pressure it will come out of this corner in a fear defensive way 

I would have that trainer refund you , have him take back the dog and go work with a qualified organization which often have all sorts of subsidies for people in real need .

I have worked with this organization in the past -- contact them and see who or what they would recommend in your area Main


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if she were a pet you could indulge yourself with the time and effort to "make her the best that she can be" -- even then for the next 10 years plus the results would be unpredictable

you can't remedy genetics and early up bringing , critical socialization times -- not to work reliably and appropriately in stressful , emotion laden situations


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

According to my contract No Refunds, the only option I have is to let her choose when and if appropriate to replace her with another dog. I don't want another puppy, I needed a Service Dog to help our family and I do not trust her to even choose/train another dog. We fund raised for a year for this, and now we have a dog we love and feel obligated to help who is really a huge burden and will remain so as we have to now pay another trainer to help us. We have owned dogs and never had a dog do this. My boys are terribly disappointed and heartbroken that their Amazing Seizure Alert K9 is really a puppy with bad behaviors that is not suitable for going anywhere or even having company in the home.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Unfortunately, fraud in alert dogs is common. it's sick and twisted. But it's common. the best thing you can do is do your research on this person and start contacting your attorney general to get them shut down.

And didn't your contract lay out training perimeters? What the dog would be capable of doing? If that is not met then it's a breach of contract. Call a lawyer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree totally with Jax08 -- somewhere in your contract there must have been a description of what they were going to give you in exchange for an agreed sum $$$$.

You gave them the $$$. They failed to keep their end of the bargain .


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Unfortunately, fraud in alert dogs is common. it's sick and twisted. But it's common. the best thing you can do is do your research on this person and start contacting your attorney general to get them shut down.
> 
> And didn't your contract lay out training perimeters? What the dog would be capable of doing? If that is not met then it's a breach of contract. Call a lawyer.


My trainer told me about two dogs he has worked with that were sold for big bucks as service dogs and had terrible nerves. One was sold to a Veteran for over $10,000 and bit someone. Terrible the fraud that people perpetrate.

Training a SAR dog I know without a doubt that someone trying to pass off a 10 month old dog as a trained service dog is a fraud. WAAAY too young. Very Sad that slime bags like this exist.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I am very sorry you are dealing with this. 

Does she "alert" to your sons seizures? Is she actually capable of that one task you needed her for? Seizure alert dogs are meant to warn in advance of seizures. Does she do this? 

If not, then that is a failure of contract.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I am sorry to hear about this dog and also sorry that so many people put their faith into the wrong people. As already said, it is possible that this dog with a lot of work may become a pet that can be controlled in the home, but as a SD -- no. I am in contact with many many people with SDs and a situation like this never has a satisfactory ending. 

On the average it takes 18-24 months to train a Service Dog. 
1) There are hundreds of hours to train
2) Final evaluations on temperament should not be done before this age.

The organization that I am involved with promotes that until the age of 12-14 months a dog is at the Candidate (prospect) level. This is when a dog learns not only solid housebreaking but also house manners, a very strong basic obedience and some more advanced obedience, health and temperament evaluations. These evaluations of temperament include having people in the home and the dog out in public around strangers, other dogs and other animals. The dog during this time goes into the public as a pet only. 

No dog should be presented or sold as a SD or even a SDIT before this time.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> The trainer took the whole litter and put them all out as service dogs


A whole litter placed as SDs at the age of 10 months of age!! The odds of a whole litter being suitable to be picked for the Candidate Level is not very likely. Then the odds are even less that a whole litter could even make it into the Service Dog-In-Training Level. 

Even dogs bred inhouse by very reputable SD organizations are not likely to be able to do this. Very nice dogs are not able to make the final evaluations for this career and become loving pets or even able to go to other jobs. Any breeder or trainer that says otherwise would raise a big red flag to me.



> ... to train a German Shepherd Service Dog for Seizure Alert for our two Sons (10 and 15).


SDs are for one person only. They may alert for other family members but their main purpose is for one person. 

Seizure Alerts are normal reactions for some dogs -- they are not trained. The manner in which they alert can be trained and also encouraged to continue. 

Seizure Response is where the task training comes in. Does the dog go to another family member (or someone else) to get help? Does the dog lay quietly next to their handler waiting for the seizure to be over and then help to keep the handler safe (not wondering off)? Does the dog bring a phone back to the handler to call for help? Does the dog bring the handler's medication and maybe a bottle of water to the handler? Does the dog press a 911 button and then allow responders into the home?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Application fee of $75. and applicant is put on a waiting list. For those applicants who fund raise for the cost of the dog then they are moved up on the waiting list. 

Many months of training / Some dogs 6 months or less.

As far as getting any money back?? If the poster got the dog from the same place as Carmen's link went to -- well remember that this organization is a 501(c)(3). All funds going to such an organization are considered donations unless stated otherwise in the buyer's contract that the funds would be held separate so that said funds could be returned. 

OP, best of luck to you and since you love this dog I highly recommend that you continue working with this pup under the guidance of a very good trainer with experience with this type of dog so that your pup can be a safe and loving family member (pet) inside of your home.


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## PrayerOfFaith (May 25, 2015)

*Update on Blue*

We have gone through a lot of emotion, tried several different things to curb the growling/barking. The only thing we have found that has worked in mist of water in her face when growling immediately shuts down the behavior. It took a good 10 times, but she has not growled or barked at the men in the home since the first day we started it. Does she alert for seizures, No. The contract says "Seizure Alert" and our initial email price quote she gave was for a Seizure Alert Service Dog with some Autism and Sensory training. The trainer said she was alerting when she was here for delivery on day one when she placed her with my son seizing and she whined. Turns out she whined every time I placed her next to him and command her to stay for the first few weeks, whether he was seizing or not. Does she know when they are seizing, I think she actually does "respond," she will lay next to the youngest boy especially when he is seizing and put her paws on his legs/feet. I had her go next to him and placed her paws on his legs/feet for the first several weeks and she now knows to do this. We have no had any visitors to the home except air conditioning repair. She did bark/growl at them when they entered the living space of the living room and we have not tested her with visitors since the assumed soluion of water misting actually worked stopping it 3 days ago. It's a terrible situation, especially since many people donated for the boys to get this dog. She was supposed to be trained for the youngest boy, since his seizures are so much worse. The theory was that she would eventually alert for both and if not we could get another one. The trainer has broke contact after I publicly stated the truth of the situation and refused her to come show me some things to help or a replacement dog, the boys are attached to her and we all love her. I couldn't see the benefit of another dog from the same trainer, since obviously the first one was not trained properly and my boys wouldn't hear of it anyway. The only contact I have had is asking for her vet records and AKC paperwork, she replied that she would send it. We are closing on a home this week and will start training with the new male trainer in a week or so after the move. Once he gives his professional opinion on the possibility of resolving this, how much it will cost and the expected outcome we will proceed to do whatever necessary to resolve this with original trainer. Service Dog Disaster... I have heard from many who quietly endured a similar situation as ours out of embarrassment. We spent an entire year fundraising... We have a public page set up for our boys and over a thousand people watched as we progressed from talking about it to the first puppy photo to the delivery. I was willing to quietly try to resolve the situation with a new trainer without any public knowledge of what was really happening with the house training, obvious aggression towards men and lack of basic training for being a member of our household because her public behavior was perfect until the growling and barking happened in public. We spayed her 3 weeks ago and she has recovered well. Everything kind of crumbled under us, leaving us standing there in shock, as this is not supposed to happen. Will update again, as soon as I feel confident we are making progress one way or another. Thank you so much to all who have commented and been so kind.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

please contact your attorney general


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This seems to me like a huge scam. The dog is not suitable for the work. 

Spraying her with water when she growls could be a huge mistake. I'm glad you are meeting with a trainer.


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