# teach INSTANT out?



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

out - YouTube

how do i teach my dog to out instantly? sometimes he'll out instantly but other times he'll think about it for a second before letting go of his ball. the problem usually appears while i am tugging with him. if he is tugging hard sometimes it takes him a second to out. in the video above its not too bad but his worst would be adding another second to that. i mean im not excited as it was after training and im sitting on a bench and not really engaging him. but does a dog need to be fully in drive to instantly out? does it get better with age? my dog is only 6 months so im not sure when his prey/ball drive really reaches its full potential. should i not ask for an out if he is tugging hard the other way? 

also when we tug he tugs hard and pulls back with his back feet. random i will act like he is pulling me along (he kinda is) and will release the tug and let him win. should i let the dog win if he is pulling away from me? or should i only release the tug when he is going into me? this occured to me because if he is biting a sleeve, im sure its not good if he wants to pull the helper all around the field? i use a ball on string as well as a jute tug.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, to me - 6 months is young for an instant out - I would think that will come with practice and training. Right now, he is probably so worked up that he tunes you out and that could be causing the problem. For the tug - I see your point - it is turning into a tug of war game instead of the bite training you want it to be. I would change the rules of the game - and use 2 tugs - he digs his back feet in like a mule - drop the tug immediately, but then with your other hand - bring out the second tug - it helps at first to have them on a short rope so you have more room to grab and also to scoot it on the ground if he isn't interested and hold the second in back of you so he doesn't see it - when he bites the second tug - tug it to encourage the biting (it helps to growl like you are a very determined wolf) - then time it right before he digs his back paws in - drop it - pick up the first - for the winning - let him win the when he bites - it helps to walk away leaving both tugs and act defeated then turn and praise him. I would do the same with the balls - 2 balls - he will more easily give up one ball because he will want the second.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't expect him to spit it on command when it is still moving. He did good, IMO...my 4 yr old doesn't give it up that easily! I think when a dog has to really work for the toy, giving it up is much harder to do. So rewarding the out is important if that is your goal/two ball game.
When I train, I seldom ask for an out, but will lift my dog to out, to keep his drive level higher. 
It all depends on why/what you are doing. Outing fast or spitting the ball has never been my focus when working.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

If you're trying to train bite work, I wouldn't work on the out yet and just lift him off of it for now. Focusing on the out too much too soon has a tendency to make them drop stuff later on instead of wanting to keep hold of the sleeve (or dumbbell in obedience).

If you're just playing around though, the two ball method works great, and you can also have the tug go limp and only bring it back to life when the dog outs. With the second one, I probably wouldn't introduce the world until the pup is starting to out more quickly/reliably. I did these two methods with my pup (currently 9 months) and she outs beautifully. We have more problems with her actually holding onto the ball when we tell her now lol!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Reps and good timing


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I guess I'm the weird one. When teaching the out, I use the "Ivan" game. Works great for getting the puppy to get the general understanding. When the puppy is 4-6 months old I may add in an ear pinch or something every so often. That way when I say "out" it outs. I don't do this during bite work yet. Just when playing tug/ball. I do many more repetitions using the game method than the ear pinch. Also once the dog out's it immediately gets the toy back. 

As for the dog tugging away from you. As long as it's a full grip. I let the dog pull me around thinking it's that strong. I want my dog pulling the helper around the field, not just going for a ride. That being said, every once in a while cradle the dog up and cradle him when on the tug. I hope all this is making sense. My brain is fried right now.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

what does "lift the dog to out" mean? he will out every time but its just not instant. im pretty sure its 99% due to my timing but im not sure when to tell him to out. if i say out,yes(bites ball),out,yes,out then he will out instantly. if he is running towards me with his ball i can say out and he will instantly drop it to the ground. but when we are tugging even for 2 seconds, his outs become slower. its like he's enjoying the game too much to let go. i've tried showing him the exact same toy and asking for the out but he'd still rather tug then out and grab onto the new ball. if i dont give the out command then theres no way to get it out of his mouth other than prying his mouth open. plus that video wasnt the best example. he is worst than that.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I guess I'm the weird one. When teaching the out, I use the "Ivan" game. Works great for getting the puppy to get the general understanding. When the puppy is 4-6 months old I may add in an ear pinch or something every so often. That way when I say "out" it outs. I don't do this during bite work yet. Just when playing tug/ball. I do many more repetitions using the game method than the ear pinch. Also once the dog out's it immediately gets the toy back.
> 
> As for the dog tugging away from you. As long as it's a full grip. I let the dog pull me around thinking it's that strong. I want my dog pulling the helper around the field, not just going for a ride. That being said, every once in a while cradle the dog up and cradle him when on the tug. I hope all this is making sense. My brain is fried right now.


I've reverted how I train... You push me, you win, you pull I rock you lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I've reverted how I train... You push me, you win, you pull I rock you lol


 
Huh, why is this? Getting the dog to dig in deeper on the bite?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Huh, why is this? Getting the dog to dig in deeper on the bite?


I teach more now, the way to win is only to fight harder into me.. No pulling, no averting, only F you, I fight into you

You know when teaching a dog to counter how a stressed dog will prefer to pull rather than regrip deeper? I want to teach to always fight into me... Makes counters and regrips easier


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I teach more now, the way to win is only to fight harder into me.. No pulling, no averting, only F you, I fight into you
> 
> You know when teaching a dog to counter how a stressed dog will prefer to pull rather than regrip deeper? I want to teach to always fight into me... Makes counters and regrips easier


 
Makes sense. It's hard answering these questions sometimes because I work so many things but in different steps. So I like a dog to pull but I also work regrips a lot. So Heidi for example will try and pull you to the ground if her grip is full. If she ended up with a crappy grip she digs in and in and in until the sleeve/suit is in her tonsils. I have a video somewhere of Heidi catching a decoy off balance, he started to go to the ground so she started pulling him down. Once he was on the ground she kept digging in, grabbing more and more suit until the decoy started trying to get up again. Then she was back to trying to pull him back down.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Makes sense. It's hard answering these questions sometimes because I work so many things but in different steps. So I like a dog to pull but I also work regrips a lot. So Heidi for example will try and pull you to the ground if her grip is full. If she ended up with a crappy grip she digs in and in and in until the sleeve/suit is in her tonsils. I have a video somewhere of Heidi catching a decoy off balance, he started to go to the ground so she started pulling him down. Once he was on the ground she kept digging in, grabbing more and more suit until the decoy started trying to get up again. Then she was back to trying to pull him back down.


Couple parts to it, but if a dog has a really sketchy grip, regardless of the dog, they always pull more than regrip for that dog specifically. I now teach, push me and you win... Irrelevant in IPO, but important in PSA... And I prefer mine to be pushing you rather than pulling... Training issue. Jäger pulled like an ox, but when we changed the training, it was fairly easy for him to become a pusher... I think weaker dogs might not transition so easily but haven't tried on other dogs


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

so should i not encourage my dog to pull on his tug? he sometimes will also pull downward. he'll pull until he's in a platz and i have to pull him back up. or are you guys talking about more advanced stuff with the sleeve?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> so should i not encourage my dog to pull on his tug? he sometimes will also pull downward. he'll pull until he's in a platz and i have to pull him back up. or are you guys talking about more advanced stuff with the sleeve?


I'm nitpicking. I'm anal to the degree that I care about why direction my dog pulls prior to outing.. I also make my dogs out lightning fast while the helper is still actively fighting... So I'm kind of an #$& hole, to be fair

In my defense, I got a 1400 on my SAT and my dad said "you'll do better next time", so I blame my parents lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> so should i not encourage my dog to pull on his tug? he sometimes will also pull downward. he'll pull until he's in a platz and i have to pull him back up. or are you guys talking about more advanced stuff with the sleeve?


 
If your dog is actually pulling it back and down into a down then no. I would not encourage that. I like a dog to try and control the helper. A dog that is pulling away to lay down with the toy is lazy. I work a rottie that does this and it really ticks me off. He would fit Hunters description as he also a weak nerved dog. So if your dog is doing that then go Hunters route and always reward the dog pushing in. 

Hunter- I'm working a PSA and a ring(leg) dog right now under the supervision of our head decoy(he was a PSA Decoy for 10 years). Both of them always push in. So you are right.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

im annoyed my dog wont instantly out every time so i can probably match you in the nitpicking department. because i dont have time right now to join any type of club, i want to do everything correctly so when i do join a club, there isnt any bad habits to fix. i have to constantly remind myself i have a pup and not a sch3 dog


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How you train the out depends on the dog. I had one dog where I would "lock up" the toy against my thigh and he would release it. When he did that I said "out" and eventually it became a cue. Ironically this was my lower threshold, very high prey dog so I worked this early on anticipating possible out problems later (in bitework), however he's always had the best/fastest "out" of my dogs when playing with toys, just did it naturally I think because he values being able to chase/fetch his toys more than the tugging or possessing them. 

My other dog has never had "out" problems during bitework, very clear there and very natural secondary obedience yet he hates to "out" his ball on a string. He was taught to (reluctantly) out using -R with a prong collar and is still slow to out that ball or his tug during flyball. The toy needs to be dead, you can't be tugging on it and telling the dog to out or he will just fight back, and the command has to be given in a "do it now or else" tone.

Lift the dog to out means let go of your toy (don't pull on it) and lift your dog gently by the collar. He will spit the toy out and you can grab it.

I trained a baby puppy I was training for someone that even at 8 weeks had this amazingly full, hard, yet dead-calm grip and even at that age he would NOT out. Since he was little I would just lift him up and tip his head down, he'd spit out the toy. Not ideal but I was not I was not asked to train the out, only get him interested in toys/tugging/fighting.


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