# Tracking- How do you do it?



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have to go tracking now since it rained! A RARE occurance here. However, since Carolina asked one question about slowing dogs down in tracking, I thought I would start this thread to ask others how they teach tracking and how they tackle certain issues like speed. 
Everyone does things a bit different and that's how I learned to track my dog...by walking with lots of people on the track and watching how they handle and also how they teach. Everyone has a different idea of what is the "right way". Since I was the person who offered the idea behind the T-shirt that says " The only thing two dog trainers can agree on is what a third trainer is doing wrong", I KNOW there will be all kinds of different opinions IF people will post on this topic.
Lisa is quite good at tracking, I know because I have a dog she trained. So, I am certain she will be willing to post on my thread.









I also know there are others because I have watched your videos.









So, how do you train tracking ...corners , speed , etc.?


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Oh this could be a GREAT post!!! Can't wait to read everyone's views.







Thanks Anne!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Anne,

Entire books have been written about tracking and I believe I saw somewhere that posts are limited to 1000 words. Perhaps you should limit the scope of the discussion to one aspect at a time. Also, people need to realize that tracking builds upon itself, meaning that the way the dog is trained determines what can be done to solve certain problems. Additionally, I think that discussions where actual training techniques are discussed always fall short. The reason for this is that it is nearly impossible for people to fully comprehend what is being said unless they are already familiar with the particular technique being discussed. Or the author of the post is willing to write pages of explanation.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Fine....how's this? How do you slow down a fast tracking dog and when do you start to to work on that aspect? Also I am not expecting anyone to provide a step by step guide, I am asking in a more general sense. People have to try different approaches with each individual dog, whether they read the idea in a book, on the internet or saw it demonstarted once. So, this is more an "ideas" type thread.
Even when you see something demonstrated, you always have to try it out with your own dog to see if it works for you. I expect that people have the sense to figure that part out. Most have been doing this for a while now.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

There are many ways to slow down a fast dog. I like to use small articles to slow the dog down. When I do this the dog already knows that there are consequenses for over-running an article. And he learns very quickly that excessive speed results in over-running articles (particularly when the articles are very small), thus he learns very quickly to be slow and careful in his work. Obviously this is a gross simplification of the actual process, but it gives an idea. The thing that I like about doing it this way, as opposed to using more food, is that when there is no food on the track the dog knows that he must be careful.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Anne, that dog has tremendous talent in tracking. I just needed to show her what I wanted.

I use a mixture of things to slow down a dog. Experience, corners, food, articles and a set pace. 

Something that people must understand is that great tracking dogs are developed by actually tracking. I see too many people trying to track one or two times per week and then wondering why they make little to no progress. Dogs must get experience thus they must track. You will also find that the more you track the easier it becomes to read your own dog. Something I also see too much of is handlers micromanaging their dogs and never allowing the dogs to make any mistakes. I, personally, think a dog must make mistakes to understand how to work through difficulties. Of course I mean within reason. We are a team and the dog is not out there working on their own especially in training. Another thing that the handler must do is they MUST know where their track is especially with a young dog. I also have found that my dogs really settle into tracking in their 4 year old years. Well, except for Vala who took until she was almost 5.









I like tracking and I like developing tracking dogs. They are not always point dogs, but they know how to work through things and will work their butts off to finish a track.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

What I've worked until now is to use more food on the track. I think I started to remove it too early, before a calmer tracking were established and I created a bad habit. That and more angles and longer tracks. But there is a point where I have to remove the food anyway to let the dog advance and then more obedience plays its role. 

I'm always afraid of messing with my dog because she's the first one and I have nobody around who knows more than me, but in this past weekend seminar with Claudia she showed me how, with the dog I have and with her love for tracking, I could kick her







(figuratively speaking) and she won't loose drive. So I will start putting more pressure on her, nothing excessive, but the pops on the leash you saw on my video. Lets see how it works...


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## honda_tuner (Apr 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgAnne,
> 
> Entire books have been written about tracking and I believe I saw somewhere that posts are limited to 1000 words. Perhaps you should limit the scope of the discussion to one aspect at a time. Also, people need to realize that tracking builds upon itself, meaning that the way the dog is trained determines what can be done to solve certain problems. Additionally, I think that discussions where actual training techniques are discussed always fall short. The reason for this is that it is nearly impossible for people to fully comprehend what is being said unless they are already familiar with the particular technique being discussed. Or the author of the post is willing to write pages of explanation.


If you didn't want to answer the question then dont. Its not very hard to explain how people slowed down their dogs. For the other questions people didnt have to answer all of them. They could have picked and choosed which ones. 

This is a forum people have questions. If you didnt know how to answer it then dont. Everyone else had an intelligent answer that wasnt over a 1000 words. 

Just my .02 on people that answer threads without having any meaning behind it.


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## honda_tuner (Apr 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgThere are many ways to slow down a fast dog. I like to use small articles to slow the dog down. When I do this the dog already knows that there are consequenses for over-running an article. And he learns very quickly that excessive speed results in over-running articles (particularly when the articles are very small), thus he learns very quickly to be slow and careful in his work. Obviously this is a gross simplification of the actual process, but it gives an idea. The thing that I like about doing it this way, as opposed to using more food, is that when there is no food on the track the dog knows that he must be careful.


This should have been the only post you made. Sorry if you feel offended by this. There is just too many forums I've been apart of that made me leave because people try to talk down to you for just asking questions.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Thank you Jesse. While I certainly understand what you are saying about other boards, I didn't really take what Art was saying as condescending. Maybe I am more used to the way people write on these boards but I think he was just asking me to narrow down the topic.

No one else has anything to add? Again, not asking for a seminar, just things you may have done with your dog to slow them down a  bit or if you have not had this problem, why do you think you have not?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks Anne. I seem to have a knack for rubbing a lot of people the wrong way on this board. I am not sure why, my glowing personality I guess.









Maybe I should try using more smiley-faces when I write?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK I'll bite! Nikon is the first dog I have every tracked with and he's only 15 months old. He was fast at first. Nose was deep and he was focused but just fast and plowing through like a freight train, sometimes only up one side. I was too caught up in learning to lay one and get the treat in the toe every few steps. My stride was not at all natural - sometimes too close, sometimes too wide, sometimes the footsteps were too close or too far apart. Over time, I simply got better at laying his track. My stride became more natural. I used less and less food. Now the dog is more methodical, tracks each footstep, side to side up both sides, and has slowed down considerably. Corners don't really seem to matter (FWIW currently he does 2-4 corners mostly depending on the shape of the land, and I usually serpentine a bit to get more track in the area we have access to). He doesn't have articles on the track yet. So, that's where we are at now. Still have a looooooong way to go (me more than him!).

Also, he slows down in cover that is very dry, less lush/dense, and/or taller. If it is really wet AND tall, sometimes his head comes up too much, but there's so much scent there I can hardly blame him. I like the wet b/c I can see my track (hard for me to trust the dog even though I should) but I have to remember what that means to the dog and the scent.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Thanks Anne. I seem to have a knack for rubbing a lot of people the wrong way on this board. I am not sure why, my glowing personality I guess.
> 
> Maybe I should try using more smiley-faces when I write?


Some claim that works but I have used them on occasion with no effect. lol.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:Again, not asking for a seminar, just things you may have done with your dog to slow them down a bit..


What's worked for me was going back to using more food on the track, not excessive amounts.. Using smaller pieces of food/kibble, aging the track longer, being more aware of the tracks I lay, using terrain that is more difficult, smaller articles, which Zahnburg really helped me with that one and handling the line better.. 

My dog would pick up speed after she's taken the corners.. She likes to go faster there, so this is were the smaller articles are helping us.. 

I also believe as the dog matures and gains more experience they start to settle down themselves..


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I do AKC style tracking, but I did slow down my dog and made him more precise by using small articles like coins. I haven't used food on track because when he tracks he ignores any food completely.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

To slow dogs down I've used several different methods: more food/smaller food, more articles/smaller articles, more problems to solve (terrain changes, step offs, cross tracks, serpentines, etc..) that require the dog to really think and work through problems rather than just go on auto-pilot and blow down the track. 

Also different line handling techniques. One thing I have found with many dogs is that just back pressure on the line, even with a pinch collar, very often doesn't slow them down. It can have the opposite effect by making the dog just pull harder and try to go faster (opposition reflex). But a rhythmatic tug/release on the line, rather than constant back pressure, does help quite a bit (in fact, IIRC I think it was you, Anne, who first showed me this??).

I do tend to use different combinations of different techniques, not just one. Partly because different things work better for different dogs, and it can take some experimentation to hit on the right technique or combination that works best for a particular dog. But also because I've found that one of the things that can lead to the dog picking up speed and not really concentrating is tracks being too predictable. So a lot of variety not only spices it up, but makes the dog hunker down and focus more because it can't easily anticipate what is coming next. 

I do also think experience and maturity play big roles in a dog settling down and tracking more precisely and slowly.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something I have never done is use a pinch. I know many people are successful using a pinch to slow down a dog. Just not something I do. I have found that setting the pace mixed with the articles and food does work. In my experience the dog does eventually tire of pulling.

Just want to add, that when I set the pace I do use what horse people call half halts at times. Not all the time, but when the dog is pulling too hard into the line.

Something else that people need to realize is that a dog that is fully into a track will look different than one who isn't. Many people associate speed, pulling and a gay tail as intensity.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I've had good luck using the pinch and the pull/release line pressure. Pinch is always on the dead ring, not live.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild... pull/release line pressure...


 That's interesting, I should try that, thanks for the tip! When I hike I use a wide collar and a 15 ft leash and that's what I do, pull/release, to slow down the dog and keep him at a steady pace. It never dawn on me to use this technique for tracking


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We've had very good luck with the pull/release. One variant on it we learned from Helmut Raiser that helped really improve the technique and getting it working even better for us was to do the pull/release in rhythm to the dog's tracking rhythm (or conversely, to use it to subtly help the dog set that rhythm if he doesn't already have one... sort of like a metronome). It is very light, not a jerk in any way. Ideally it should be under the dog's threshold of awareness so it doesn't disturb the dog (and certainly can't be viewed as a correction) but helps slow him down and get him into a good rhythm of tracking.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I tried the pinch for a while (one line on the fursaver, another on the pinch) and it worked a little but I am too clumsy for it. If I am not paying attention the dog might over-correct and then I risk him looking back at me. I think for us it's also like Lisa says...the more we track the better his rhythm becomes.

Another thing that helped is I try to keep him from tracking out to the track and when we get there, have him platz and just wait until he calms a bit to let him get on the tail and move the line under his legs. Ironically, he tracks better when we are in "city" places like church yards, baseball fields, business parks...all with people and traffic. But when we are out in the country on lovely club tracking grounds he acts more wired and needs a minute or so to chill.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I was just out tracking and was going to comment on this method of using rhythm to create the right speed. I think I did mention that when I was back there Chris and I also talked about it on the euro list a while back. I can't remember where that idea came from, I am guessing it was Helmut but I know I didn't just come up with the idea myself . 
Anyway, I have had some issues with my little bean head Vader with speed. Most of this is the dog's temperament IMO, as he tends to get fast or a little frantic when he feels pressure. Mostly the problems show up when he has to search for the track and also at the end of the track he really speeds up and I am there holding him back. Clearly, he is feeling a bit of stress from me and I know what I did to create this. 
Anyway, recently, I decided I was not really training Vader, I was just kind of tracking him. Something that can happen when you try to train too many dogs in tracking. Vader seems to gets frantic and hectic if I pop the leash and he loses the ability to concentrate. He tries harder which for him, is to go faster. Yesterday, I put the prong collar on and the leash on both rings. I was very consistent in the speed that I walked and with each slow step I pulled very slightly on the leash. This is something so subtle I have had to tell people observing to watch my hands. The pulling happens with each step so it is a very consistent rhythm and a slower one because of the speed I am walking . 
Anyway, today, Vader started out tracking a bit quicker and from step one, I started this with the leash and did it consistently throughout, even when the speed was where I wanted it. It was quite interesting what happened . As the track went on, instead of seeing Vader getting quicker and more stressed, I could actually see him relaxing and his method of scenting also changed . He started to track with the same rhythm I was creating and the last two legs were actually slower than the beginning of the track which is opposite of normal. The most interesting thing was how much he relaxed. 
I have suggested this to a few people and the result is dogs who track with a very unique look. They seem to almost be stalking the track and it is that rhythm that creates that look. I think it is something you have to do throughout the track at first, even when the speed is right, and of course, as they start to get it, you won't be doing it all the time. I am starting this with Brazen also to see what happens but Ikon is so slow already, I'm pretty sure I won't be using it with him..... for speed anyway. Oh, and you can do this without a pinch, depends on the dog I think.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Ok, I catch flack for this from the "tracking is following a scent purists" But I think of tracking differently than anyone has mentioned yet. Schutzhund tracking at any rate. I don't know when for sure I started thinking this way and it doesn't really lead to any different techniques than people have already talked about but it helps me identify tracking problems better and more often come up with a plan that leads to a successful solution.


With that introduction, My Tracking Philosophy:
Tracking, in schutzhund, has nothing to do with finding the end of the track or following someone to see where they have gone. When you think about it few dogs really have any difficulty figuring out where the track goes, they have trouble following it exactly and with the behavior we want them to show. 

This is where the points go away, for speed changes, attention to detail, and swinging wide or casting. In reality these are all good behaviors in a scenting dog to a point, they reassure the dog he is on the right track and is following the scent he is supposed to. we however don't want that.

This brings us to what we are really doing. Taking a natural behavior of following scent to the tasty thing that made it and molding it to an exacting, slow, methodical, precise demonstration. Anytime we are molding a behavior like this we are requiring obedience from our dogs. Obedience to a set of rules that makes little sense, but still a set of rules they must follow for us to be happy with them.

Since we are looking for obedience to this set of rules anyway we can treat it like any other obedience exercise. This means breaking it down to its smallest part and building the complete behavior chain from there. In this case the smallest behavioral unit is moving from one footstep to the next. If our dogs repeat this consistently 300 times in a row and twice obey our object triggered place command we get 100 points.

In practical terms what this means as far as speed is that the dog must show us every single footstep, individually and to our satisfaction to get the rewards. in the beginning this is taught with food in every footstep rewarding the behavior at every successful occurrence and not allowing the dog to proceed until he successfully executes the behavior. from there things move like any other behavioral training to intermittent reward and the introduction of various "distractions" until we have it proofed.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I will throw this out there. I hear people say all the time that their dog skips over food on the track, I think someone even said that in this thread. So am I the only one who corrects a dog for not taking food? 

Sorry...I forgot to add my smiley-face


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I can't say if you are the only one but I don't. My dogs don't usually pass the food but when I have trained dogs who did, I did not correct them for it. Maybe I found a different kind of food to use though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgI will throw this out there. I hear people say all the time that their dog skips over food on the track, I think someone even said that in this thread. So am I the only one who corrects a dog for not taking food?


I try to think of what I did wrong setting up the track that made the dog skip the food, lol. Usually he skips if there's too much food. Sometimes it depends on the cover. If we are on a lush, mowed baseball field he won't skip but in longer cover he won't stop and nose around for it for longer than a second.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

I don't correct for skipping food, I do correct for skipping footsteps. There are times when the dog is so intent on tracking that the food is a meaningless distraction. If he is moving consistently from footstep to footstep showing perfect behavior, there is no excuse to correct the dog just because he decides not to eat his reward.

Often skipping the reward comes along with skipping the footstep, therefore not showing correct behavior and possibly earning a reprimand.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thinking on Tim answer and just dropping an idea...

If I'm overly worried about the dog taking the food, more than following the footsteps. Can it create stress on the dog when there is no food if he thinks that not finding it will mean a correction?

I can see how it can slow down a dog, but at least in my inexperienced hands I think it would be more of a double-edged sword provoking unnecessary mistakes.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I disagree Tim. For my dogs, if the food is there the dog must eat it, meaningless to him as it may be. Now this does not apply so much to an older/experienced dog but rather to a young dog who IS intent on the track and/or focused on getting to the safety of the article. To my way of thinking if you begin to allow a dog to skip food then you are negating an important tool in your toolbox. Let me add that I am not talking about missing a piece here or there, but rather a dog who is begining to make a habit of it. Also, when I use the term "correct" in this context I do not mean beating the dog up or making a big deal about it. Instead, what happens is the dog begins to go past the food, he gets a small pop or tug on the leash, the food is right there so he eats it, he gets a "good boy" and he continues tracking. 

Lican,
I agree. Tracking IS a double-edge sword. You make the dog too happy and he is fast and careless. If you make him too careful then he will shutdown when he runs into difficulty. It is a delicate balance. 
The stress that you are talking about when not finding food, does not, in my experience, occur with food, because it is never a big deal and the dog simply learns to eat it if it is there. However, the situation that you are talking about can occur if there are no articles.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Zahnburg... when you say "getting to the safety of the article"... are you referring to forced tracking?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I don't correct for skipping food, I do correct for skipping footsteps. There are times when the dog is so intent on tracking that the food is a meaningless distraction. If he is moving consistently from footstep to footstep showing perfect behavior, there is no excuse to correct the dog just because he decides not to eat his reward.


My thoughts exactly..

I have an 8mo old pup I'm working with... He isn't really food motivated, he may eat a few pieces here and there but that's it.. For him when I constantly checked him or even kept constant pressure on the line, trying to get him to eat each piece of food, it created conflict to the point he would stop tracking, pick his head up, look around and he's even laid down on me.. 

So, I had to re-think what I was doing w/the help of a good friend who's dog is very similar to this pup.. We decided even though he wasn't eating the food, he was checking each footstep and moving down the track.. We'd just let him go at his own pace and if he ate the food great if he didn't then no big deal.. Tracking him now has become much easier on the both of us.. and we're progressing forward..









With this pup we've been tracking in shorter lush grass so I can see each footstep and this past week we tracked him in the snow.. (maybe I'll post the video).. But with my own dogs (who are food hounds) the fields I've tracked them in .. I'd never remember where I'd dropped each piece of food?


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

> Quote: I don't correct for skipping food, I do correct for skipping footsteps. There are times when the dog is so intent on tracking that the food is a meaningless distraction. If he is moving consistently from footstep to footstep showing perfect behavior, there is no excuse to correct the dog just because he decides not to eat his reward.


I have to agree with this also... if my dog is showing perfect tracking behavior why would I correct and put pressure on him/her. Does the dog know why he/she is being corrected? How do you get your point across to the dog that it's the lack of him/her eating the food on the track that he's/she's receiving the correction for? Dog is giving you 100% on that track and you'll still give a correction for leaving bait?

One other point I'd like to make with this whole discussion is that you really have to look at the individual dogs you are training. Once again the same method for every single dog isn't going to be conducive to good training in any of the phases.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

p.s. Great discussion... here's my


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ZahnburgI disagree Tim. For my dogs, if the food is there the dog must eat it, meaningless to him as it may be. Now this does not apply so much to an older/experienced dog but rather to a young dog who IS intent on the track and/or focused on getting to the safety of the article. To my way of thinking if you begin to allow a dog to skip food then you are negating an important tool in your toolbox. Let me add that I am not talking about missing a piece here or there, but rather a dog who is begining to make a habit of it. Also, when I use the term "correct" in this context I do not mean beating the dog up or making a big deal about it. Instead, what happens is the dog begins to go past the food, he gets a small pop or tug on the leash, the food is right there so he eats it, he gets a "good boy" and he continues tracking.
> 
> Lican,
> I agree. Tracking IS a double-edge sword. You make the dog too happy and he is fast and careless. If you make him too careful then he will shutdown when he runs into difficulty. It is a delicate balance.
> The stress that you are talking about when not finding food, does not, in my experience, occur with food, because it is never a big deal and the dog simply learns to eat it if it is there. However, the situation that you are talking about can occur if there are no articles.


So you are basing the indication of correct behavior on whether or not the dog eats food?

I just don't understand what eating or not eating has to do with anything as long as the dog is showing perfect behavior.

Do you also correct the correct the dog "give a pop or tug" if he sits on command but doesn't want the offered treat?

Interesting wording "safety of the article".


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think I know what Art is saying but the term "correct" is throwing people off ...perhaps.....I am sure he can clear it up.
I have done that to slow dogs down. Example: There is food every few step and I have "popped" , ( this is a very subtle thing, not a correction...it has to match the dog), right where the food is. There was no confusion about being stopped or popped , ( again very slight pop), because there was food there. Like the rhythm thing I talked about earlier, it takes some feel for your dog to do this. If you just start popping the line to slow the dog, many times that creates stress. If you do it when food is there, it's different but the dog has to want to eat food of course. Really, you can't correct a dog into eating so, I can't believe that is what Art is saying. Eventually, when the dog felt the line a bit on the track, he would start looking harder because he associated it with the food. All of these things have their place and their limits for how long you do them. 

Would I correct a dog for not eating? no. Would I correct a dog for not looking in every single footstep?...no.

You have to be careful how much you try to slow your dog, when you try to do it and how quickly you try to accomplish it because they will slow ALL the way down...meaning stop....if you do it wrong. It's the same thing like in protection where people try to get too much out of young dogs. First you have to have the drive and then move on from there.That's what I mean when I say SchH people don't seem to appreciate drive enough in tracking. It's too much about slow and too soon. Yes, the end result will be slow, accurate tracking but you still have to have that drive in the dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, I do not correct for missing food, nor for missing a footstep. I will sometimes correct for speed, trying to walk an article and in my more seasoned dogs for excessive head checks. My philosphy is different, I guess. I am trying to create great tracking dogs, not just "pretty" tracking dogs. I want dogs that are able to work through tough tracks without shutting down due to being afraid of making a mistake.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have done what Anne is saying. Giving a subtle half halt on the line just where there is food so the dog is rewarded for settling and searching more carefully.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't have a problem with corrections. But what Anne describes is... how to name it... philosophically different to what Art describes, even if both involve tugs on the leash.

I wish someday I can have that "touch" on the line to give all those subtle signals to the dog. Yes... the dog is not the only one who needs lots of tracking and lots of expertize to do it right.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthI have done what Anne is saying. Giving a subtle half halt on the line just where there is food so the dog is rewarded for settling and searching more carefully.


Well that I can certainly agree with and maybe I did have Art's definition of "correcting" a dog for missing food mistaken. I though also believe it's important to allow a dog the opportunity to figure out challenges on a track and, IMO, a dog that is constantly "corrected" for missing foot steps will begin to "lie" on the track trying to avoid the corrections. I've seen this on several ocassions ~ dogs that are not allowed to make those needed mistakes as a learning experience. I also agree that you really need to look at the drive levels and the enthusiasm of each new (young) dog when in the beginning teaching part of tracking individually. I started out with AKC tracking years ago, and SchH tracking is taking what all dogs can do naturally and demanding a specific "technique" which of course is going to show you a lot about a dog's character. Every year I go to my old AKC tracking class (though I no longer instruct) and give them a SchH tracking demonstation. They are totally amazed at the discipline and the "beauty" of those V rated SchH tracks.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: krylosZahnburg... when you say "getting to the safety of the article"... are you referring to forced tracking?


I'm not Art and don't know if this is what he means, but there was a discussion in the tracking forum called Next Step that discusses using articles as a safe spot. For my dogs the article is a place where they are rewarded, can take a breather and have the stress of a difficult track relieved, if that makes sense.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't think I look at tracking like all obedience either. I look at it like what we do in all the phases. You build drive and then you channel it into a behavior that you want. You are teaching the dog "the path" and the path gets more narrow as you go along, ( that's the best I can do there with that analogy). It is the same in all the phases where you make drive and then compress it into the behavior you want. That to me is tracking and of course, there is obedience involved but it should not be all about obedience. The dog still must know how to follow a track and they do have to understand that the track is taking them to something. I don't think that is exactly what Tim is saying but I have heard others who claim tracking is all obedience. That is not possible IMO. 

Also, as for the term safety on the article. Even the dogs I have trained with minimal pressure show some relief on the article where they wag their tail or exhale.I know that people use force and say this also but it doesn't have to be a case where the dog is being kicked down the track.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Of course you can not make a dog eat, but if you stop him just enough he will say "oh,there is food here so I will eat it." It does not make stress on the dog, as I said before you do not make a big deal about it, it is a little thing and the dog learns not to go past the food. 
@Tim,
Eating the food on the track has a lot to do with the track. I use food on the track to calm the dog or assure the dog that he is ok or relieve stress a little bit. It is very necessary to my training, therefore I can not allow a dog to choose to ignore it at earlier stages when it will be so important at later stages. I find it interesting that you compare it to a sit. It is different. With the sit the exercise is complete, the food is the reward. With the food on the track food is not the reward, it is reassurance to the dog that he is correct and safe. The reward is always at the end of an exercise. 
I am sorry but I do not understand what you mean by "interesting wording" when talking about articles. Tracking, to me, is obedience to the article. When the dog is downed on the article he knows that he is exactly where he needs to be and is safe. 

Lisa brings up a good point. I do not train "tracking dogs" They do not have to find a lost kid, or track down a bank robber. Schutzhund tracking is not really about tracking, it is obedience. The dog must go to the article and must do it a certain way. But Lisa also brings up another very good point. If you try to make a dog too correct and careful he will shutdown when he encounters difficulties. As I said before, it is a balancing act.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Art, you can also add a smiley under your signature so you don't always have to remember to add it.









Now I will sort of shift the conversation a bit. 
When you watch Catu's video on the seminar thread, you can see that great corner her dog did ,even though the guy walking with her walked across it and was basically in the way. That, to me, is an indication of a very sure tracking dog who has the required amount of drive to overcome obstacles , ( like say large, inattentive men), and will not be put off or deterred by it. 
My second SchH dog was like that where if I was wrong and would hold him back, he would fight me to go where he knew the track was. 
Have any of you ever tried that in training, ( with an experienced dog I mean), where you purposely held the dog back to see what he will do?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Trying to "pull" a dog off the track is important to training. The dog must know that he is correct and safe by staying on the track and he will absolutlely fight to stay on the track. Of course it is very important that the handler always knows exactly where the track is so the dog develops this mindset, if pressure comes because the handler is mistaken the dog can not learn this.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Yeah I need to add it to my signature, I always forget it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What a great conversation! I've just laid a track and can't wait to try the new technique!! I'm glad I'm hanging out in SchH section









My dog will absolutely resist being pulled off the track. My one time complete handler failure by being lost at the beginning of a long unmarked track turned out to be an enormous confidence booster for my dog that took us light years ahead in tracking.

We also track in parks a lot, and he will wait for people to pass by or cross the track, or come over and pet him if they want, and then pick up the track again and continue working. He will go through sprinklers (he'll wait for them to turn a bit, though, so he's not wet). 

I wonder if you expect your SchH dogs to keep tracking without slowing down in such situations as I described above?


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: VandalArt, you can also add a smiley under your signature so you don't always have to remember to add it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not really held the dog back with a ton of pressure but enough that he actually had to say "hey idiot it goes this way!" and show that confidence in his abilities. Honestly its one of the things I really look for to know I have a dog that is close to trial ready. The willingness and confidence to lead the handler is one of the things I think tracking tells us about our dogs.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Not in tracking, but I was a SAR handler for some years and there were many times in which the Director Trainer said "this is the search area" and then purposely hid someone out of it to see the search drive of the dog on one hand and the trust of the hander on it on the other.

I had an anecdote: we were doing a search on the mountains. 45 missing persons, so the first days were bodies practically everywhere. At midday we stopped to have lunch, about 100 meters away there was a police search team having lunch too. Once we finished we prepared a small warming session for the dogs so they could be rewarded before to continue with the real search, something quick and short. One of us took the toy and hid behind a rock, but the dog, instead of running towards him ran towards the eating police men. We thought "this is going to be embarrassing". The handler yelled and cursed to the dog and if the dog would have had an e-collar at the time he would have been surely zapped, but the dog ran past the eating people and started to bark. Short story short, there was a body, frozen and covered in snow less than 10 meters from the lunching police team. So yes, I understand what Tim is looking on a tracking dog.

End of old tales... back to tracking.


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