# New mom and time away from litter?



## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

As you know our girl had a litter 2wk 2days ago. All 9 pups survived and are growing very well. I wanted to ask at the pups age now how much time should mom be spending away from her pups? She is gated in the room with her whelping pool but has been sleeping outside the pool where her pups can't get her for most of the time. She only goes in the pool to quickly feed 1-5mins tops, will let them latch, quickly drink and then stands up and gets out in under 5 mins and not everyone gets to feed (9 pups 8 nips). They tend to scream and I feel she isn't staying long enough for everyone to get something to eat. I put her back in but she stands over them and they are still too small to reach as they are jut starting to wiggle walk let alone stand high enough to reach when standing. If I sit in the room with her and get her to lay down she will let them feed much longer until I have to get up but I can't sit in there with her to feed every 2-3 hrs. I am still weighing the pups daily and only 2-3 of them stayed the same weight over a period of 1-2 days which I have been making sure to place them on the teats to make sure they are eating but I just feel she isn't giving them enough of a chance at just 2 wks.

I know she will start to self wean the litter but 2 wks is just too early for me. Any advice? Should I try to start mush since she is getting up alot or add in puppy replacement formula for the next week? She was great up until they opened their eyes and started wiggle walking/running at her to feed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

definitely not long enough - there is no milk let-down reflex that quickly. You are going to have to sit over her and make sure she stays in . I would weigh the pups , check to see if their skin is tenting (signs of dehydration)
maternity goes beyond nursing care - I doubt she will engage with the pups - probably get out of the way asap -- 

honestly , maternal instincts are very important , personally I would not breed this female again --


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but I can't sit in there with her to feed every 2-3 hrs.


Yes you can, or you have to bottle feed. I use Gerber newborn baby nursers, mix up the formula and put it in there. At 2 weeks each puppy should eat 2oz or so of formula.
I agree w/what Carmen said - you're going to have even more trouble as they get older and need mama there to show them puppy/dog manners.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Bottle fed supplementation will keep them fed but in the bitches maternal milk there are immune enhancers both for health and diseases which the mother has been vaccinated for - first line of defense . The longer the female allows her pups to be fed the better off they will be. This includes enzymes which become usefull for the pups digestive health.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

carmspack said:


> definitely not long enough - there is no milk let-down reflex that quickly. You are going to have to sit over her and make sure she stays in . I would weigh the pups , check to see if their skin is tenting (signs of dehydration)
> maternity goes beyond nursing care - I doubt she will engage with the pups - probably get out of the way asap --
> 
> honestly , maternal instincts are very important , *personally I would not breed this female again *--


I have to agree...she's not being a good mama. You are going to have to step up to the plate here.


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

We do weigh the pups every day all of them gain 3-4oz a day. There have been 1-2 of them that only gained just a fraction but then end up doing a large 4-5 oz gain the next day. The majority of the litter 7/9 are 3lbs 6+oz with only 2 of them just at 2lbs 15oz (one being the runt and one being a male that kept getting pushed off yesterday. She does check on them as soon as they cry but I think she feels as if shes missing things going on in the home. She is in a secluded bedroom where it is quiet. Maybe moving her to the basement totally away from family will help get her to concentrate. We believe she is fine at night every time we get up (every 2-3hrs) to check on her/pups shes laying in the pool it seems to just be during the day light hrs where she tends to be out of the pool.. Could the room be to warm for her she has been panting, eating normal, normal temp, normal water intake.

The pups skin goes directly back when you pinch, mouths are a nice pink color and when a light push on their gums refills also immed. All are very bright and response to all touch and immed move and bark when they hear someone in the room. None of them seem to be sluggish except the first few seconds upond waking up sometimes a few seem like they are deciding to continue to sleep or get up and move around. Unless mom enters the pool then they ALL go for mom as fast as possible. 

I called the vet this am to ask as well and the vet stated as long as she is still feeding a few times every hr or so they pups should be fine bc of my reponse to how all the pups skin, gums, spirits were. Only said to bring them in if they were actually loosing weight. We are not going to have her bred again and as soon as she is weaned and ok'd from teh vet to spay we have decided to spay her. They vet said to give it another day before adding in any supplementation.

I also noticed that she tends to be out of the pool more when people are home (my husband and myself). My schedule flip flops every week days/evenings so when I am home i feel she tends to want to be with me and the other dogs. When I am not home I have someone come in at noon to let the dogs out and they always find her in the pool. Maybe I am just over worried about her/pups?

All in all thank you all for the help advice..


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

She is more interested in being with you than the babies. You need to make her lay down and sit with her and hold if needed for those babies to nurse enough to keep them full and gaining. The babies should gain weight every day.
I used a whelping box but but an ex pen around it so the mom had to stay with the babies until they were older... I let her out to potty and pee, but then back in the box with babies. Whelping box was big enough for her to have her food/water, but mom was in the box in a bedroom until babies started wanting to eat her food and drink her water, then I started giving them food/water while mom was gone. It was no earlier than three weeks before mom started having privilages outside the box/pen, but she was still returned to the box/pen many times daily to nurse babies even though they were starting to eat soft food.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay -- how is your females milk production? By not nursing for long periods throughout the day her milk supply may be diminishing , an early natural weaning .

If her production is low you may want to give HER something that increases the milk and she will volunteer to lay with the pups so that they take some of the pressure off . You can find a local repro-specialist in your area who may stimulate her hormones with oxytocin -- or you can resort to herbals such as fennel , fenugreek, nutritional yeast Won't Milk, Won't Dry Up by Revival Animal Health -- feed the female well - liver is a stimulant - organ meat


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Clip the puppies' nails. At this age they are turning into little hooks.
Puppies have incredibly strong suck drives and _need_ to nurse. The way puppies need to be doing it is almost 24/7 with little naps, but even when sleeping they are on the "tit" so to speak.
They sleep there, doze, wake up and suckle again. 
Bottle feeding cannot replicate mama feeding because of that. If we fed like mama did we'd sit there all day with a puppy on the bottle while it sucked a bit then went back to sleep.

Anyway- a few minutes every 3-4hrs. is not enough. And that's why the puppies rush over, hungry.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

very true - they do need to suckle, this becomes part of their emotional well being - all sorts of euphoric hormones are released with sucking --


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We are currently bottle feeding a litter - this is the 3rd of 4th litter we've bottle raised.
The need to suck is so great they'll injure each other sucking so we had to separate them to keep them safe. 
In another week or so we'll let them go back together.


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

The pups nails have been clipped every 4-5 days so far. I made sure they were clipped so they wouldnt scratch her.. She is feeding them 2-3 times during every hr I just feel she doesnt stay long enough...they don't go more then the hr without feeding...I must not have been clear on that. They suckle for a few mins several times every hour without a 2 hrs span. They rush over hungry every time no matter if they just suckled for 10 mins and had a 2 min break or a 30 min break.

As far as milk production she is very heavily breasted..to the point even after suckling and getting up and changing positions, getting out of pool or bathroom breaks she constantly drips. 

I am going to buy an x-pen tomorrow (I am working a double today 7-3pm/3pm-11pm.) And I am going to gate her to just the pool as well as bringing her downstairs to keep her away from all noise/activity in the house.

Maybe I feel I am over reading her or reading her wrongly? She feeds several short times every hour not skipping hrs at all, she checks on them every time they cry, she cleans every one of them even if they are going to the bathroom on their own she moves them over cleans them and then cleans up what they just produced on their own. I guess I am just used to the first week where she would lay 24/7 and they would stay attached for hrs at a time awake/sleeping. 

I am going to watch her more closely and record every feeding time that I witness and considering grabbing a webcam to watch while at work.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You stated some are not gaining much, this is why.
I believe nursing is more than just the milk, it's the closeness and as carmen pointed out, hormones that diffuse while nursing. 
She's in the process of weaning somewhat, it sounds like, as weaning basically removes her from the litter, and they are far too young for that. If it's this bad now, think of how next week will be?
They drink more progressively so if she can't tolerate them being on her right now, next week will be worse, I believe.

I also think moving her may help, but it also may very well make things worse.
As others said, you'll want to be spaying and not breeding her again...and you will want to consider taking one puppy since she doesn't stay long enough for at least 1 or maybe 1-2 to get their fill.

Yes it's a lot of work but that's what you signed up for when you bred her.
I had to go to Yakima all day the other day and took along this entire danged troop of 6 puppies so I could perform 2 feedings while I was gone all day.
That's how it goes, sometimes.

So bottle feed the ones who did not gain, and put them back w/litter when you are done. 
The gerber _human_ baby nursers are the best way to go (I got mine @ walmart in the baby aisle) and I like "Just Born" which I purchase at Valley Vet supply who ships free.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

My Chinese Crested, Kaynya, is like this. For the first couple weeks she is very attentive and protective of the babies. She will spend all her time in the box feeding and cleaning them and then just napping with them.

Around 2-3 weeks of age she starts reverting back to her 'normal' self - wants to be with US more than the babies.

I have the whelping box in our office - where we spend the most time. That way she can be with us and still be with the babies. If we go into the living room to watch tv (which is right next to the office) she will come sit with us .. until one of the other dogs tries to go visit the babies. Then she rushes back to tell them off.

I have to note here - Kaynya has had three litters now and I KNOW exactly how she is going to react to the other dogs and our cats being around her babies. I know when it's ok to let the other dogs go in and when it is NOT ok.

Anyway - if I think she is spending too much time with us or if the babies start to cry and she doesn't immediately rush back to them I will tell her to Go To Your Babies and she does.

At night she is locked in the office with the babies.

If the puppies aren't crying then they are getting enough food. For the couple that aren't gaining as much as the others, try bringing the mom out of the whelping room with just those puppies, have her lay down and then put those pups on the back teats (those have the best flow). Stay there with mom until the pups fall off on their own.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Good info, Lauri - I saw this,


> They tend to scream


 though, and it doesn't sound like mama's with them or feeding them enough.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this from page one of your posts " She only goes in the pool to quickly feed 1-5mins tops, will let them latch, quickly drink and then stands up and gets out in under 5 mins and not everyone gets to feed (9 pups 8 nips). They tend to scream and I feel she isn't staying long enough for everyone to get something to eat. I put her back in but she stands over them and they are still too small to reach as they are jut starting to wiggle walk let alone stand high enough to reach when standing. If I sit in the room with her and get her to lay down she will let them feed much longer until I have to get up but I can't sit in there with her to feed every 2-3 hrs." 
then later on page two this "She is feeding them 2-3 times during every hr I just feel she doesnt stay long enough...they don't go more then the hr without feeding...I must not have been clear on that. They suckle for a few mins several times every hour without a 2 hrs span. They rush over hungry every time no matter if they just suckled for 10 mins and had a 2 min break or a 30 min break." are statements that don't agree with each other.

She has a lot of milk - excellent . So here is another thing to watch for -- if she does not allow the pups to feed adequately then her milk can build up and you have to watch for hard and hot swollen udders - mastitis -


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Good thought Carmspack. Also, if the pups are not completely emptying her each time, then the udders can and will get uncomfortable for the babies to nurse. Then she won't want them to nurse, then the babies won't be getting enough food. Kinda a circle...
It takes a few minutes of babies nursing for the milk to release, that is why you see puppies frantic to suck, then their little tails kinda curl out from their bodies and the puppies start nursing quietly since they are getting milk.
She needs to be forced to stay with her babies often to feed them properly.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How warm do you have the whelping box? Only thing I can think of other than what has already been posted.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> She will spend all her time in the box feeding and cleaning them and then just napping with them.


Oxytocin is the "bonding hormone", and most mother dogs _want_ to stay, cuddle, clean, nap, etc., with the puppies. Basically, all mothering duties, due to the release of oxytocin which is stimulated when a female mammal nurses. It is responsible for the let-down of milk, and also the other mothering things mamas do.

She _should_ be more interested in her babies than anything else other than eating, at this point.


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

Whelping box is in a spare bedroom house A/C is set at 74 right now but that room is very warm. We put a fan on low to get the air moving. My husband had the vet tech stop by last night and checked on mom/babies. She also set up a video camera to watch her from her home. Mom/babies checked out great. Said everyone is growing on schedule, fully fed/hydrated, nice round soft bellies on all pups. Moms temp was normal she did mention that the room itself was warm and that we could remove the towel covering the a/c vent when we werent home to monitor the room temp. She believes that mom has been very hot and neededing to cool off briefly before returning to the pool. Mom also has nice milk production and no signs of mastitis or infection. 

Vet Tech said I am over watching her and panicing bc of all the research we have done since we had to do home birth instead of breeder birthing. And bc of *MY* elevated pregnancy hormones I am over reacting to minor things as she has been tending to her litter. Within the next 1-2 weeks the whole litter wil be moved to the downstairs dog room to open the area for the pups to start using a "bathroom" area, a feeding area/sleeping area. 

Vet tech in a phone call this am she watched mom/pups throughout the evening while I was at work through the online camera she placed in the room and found that mom only took short breaks for water, stretch and cool off when she started panting bc she was too warm. She also said the "screaming" I am hearing is when the pups get stepped/sat on not for food. She also said they started sitting up and making little noises at eachother while they are attempting to learn to interact with eachother. So my paranoia has been slightly lifted but I think its still going to drive me crazy with my hormones racing. Vet tech she was going to have the vet view her report and videos today and get back to me. Otherwise everyone was happy go lucky. 
Vet tech also stated that my 2 pups who had stayed the same weight were most likely due to them moving around in the scale and it not being able to record an accurate weight bwt the two days bc when she weighed everyone yesterday and looked at my excel sheet everyone gains 3-5oz a day, never lost any.

Sorry for getting everyone all on end bc I was freaking out...I am having a hard time with my pregnancy and I need to learn to calm down for a bit, think, and properly express myself without getting everyone at home upset and on the board going! 

I appreciate everyones help, thoughts, advice!! This board has been my go to for everything!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> we had to do home birth instead of breeder birthing.


I don't understand this...what's the difference?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

me neither - my dogs are born in my home . I am present for each pup's birth -


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## Gilly1331 (Apr 16, 2011)

All of our previous dogs have gone back to the breeder for the delivery. But the breeder had been unavail on vacation and this is our first home birth...not birth at the breeders home/kennel. So caring for new pups is new even with all the help from the breeder, vet and bb.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

That's confusing to me. Is that normal practice? That your dog goes back to its breeder for the birth? I don't think I could ever let that happen. What if there were complications? So then the dog lives away from you for the next 8 weeks? Sorry for misunderstanding. I'm not a breeder.


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