# Breeding age?



## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

From what I've been reading breeding shouldn't be done before the age of 2 years. There is a breeder mentioned in this forum that a has a litter due in oct. But the dam just turned 2 
Yrs this month. Which means she was breed before 2 years of age. Isn't this a bad idea? The reason I ask is because I was looking at this breeds for a possible pup in the future. Or is it ok if the dam has a litter after the the age of 2 ok?

Thanks


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

2 years is ideal. One can breed before age two, but you should definitely consider it as an opportunity to get more clarification. 

For example, you can ask, did you do preliminary x-rays on the dog or is she a-stamped or did you go through pen-hip? Ask to see the paperwork. A-stamp will be on the pedigree itself. 

It would not turn me completely away for someone to breed a bitch prior to two years. But under 18 months, that is still seriously a puppy.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

If the bitch had an a-stamp or PennHip score and if they had done something with her (work, trialing, etc) to get a good reading on her temperament and ability I wouldn't have a problem with her being bred a month or two before here birthday.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

It could be that a chance to breed to s specific stud dog had a limited window so a breeding was done earlier than two.


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## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

selzer said:


> 2 years is ideal. One can breed before age two, but you should definitely consider it as an opportunity to get more clarification.
> 
> For example, you can ask, did you do preliminary x-rays on the dog or is she a-stamped or did you go through pen-hip? Ask to see the paperwork. A-stamp will be on the pedigree itself.
> 
> It would not turn me completely away for someone to breed a bitch prior to two years. But under 18 months, that is still seriously a puppy.



Thanks for the quick responses.

For example, you can ask, did you do preliminary x-rays on the dog or is she a-stamped or did you go through pen-hip? Ask to see the paperwork. A-stamp will be on the pedigree itself. 

What is a-stamp and what is pen- hip? I'm sure these were done since it is a reputable breeder and there are several dogs in here from the kennel.


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## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

Andaka said:


> It could be that a chance to breed to s specific stud dog had a limited window so a breeding was done earlier than two.


Limited window? As in age wise, location of stud maybe not in he country, etc?
From what I gathered the stud is just over 4 yrs and is owned by the kennel.

Thanks for the replies.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Limited window as in the female's heat cycle and the location and availability of the male. For example a lot of WGSL females are bred to males in Europe. European countries have tighter regulations on breeding and the studs can only be used a certain number of times in a given time frame. So if that is the type of breeding being done, the female probably has to be shipped at a certain time during the heat cycle to the right male assuming the male has not done too many breedings already.

If the breeder owns both...who knows, maybe it's just better timing for them personally.

I'm not defending or condoning breeding before 2 years, but if it's a matter of a few months, maybe they have their reasons. Some people know their dogs and bloodlines well enough to make that call, some not.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And then there is the common reason of needing to prove they can produce before putting in the time to title and show them. Not saying I agree with this reason, but it is one I have heard often.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

eiyse98ls1 said:


> Thanks for the quick responses.
> 
> For example, you can ask, did you do preliminary x-rays on the dog or is she a-stamped or did you go through pen-hip? Ask to see the paperwork. A-stamp will be on the pedigree itself.
> 
> What is a-stamp and what is pen- hip? I'm sure these were done since it is a reputable breeder and there are several dogs in here from the kennel.


One of the main reasons people say two years, is that is the age when OFA will certify the dog is clear of hip and elbow dysplasia. One can get preliminary x-rays done, and a letter will be sent by the OFA. For example, I have used a stud dog that had pre-lims done at 20 or 22 months. OFA will not issue a certificate, but the letter sent said the dog was free of the diseases. The dog was over two when I bred to him, but the owner did not feel it necessary to put him under for more x-rays as the films were taken close to two years. She bought the dog when he was under two and as she had not dealt with the breeder prior she wanted to ensure his hips and elbows were healthy prior to their agreement being void. 

A-stamp is what is provided in the German system for hips, and they also show on the pedigree if the elbows have passed. 

Penn Hip is another type of hip registry which will certify at 1 year. Some say it is better as it tests the hips differently than OFA testing does, and the people who perform the testing are actually trained for that. Where any vet can provide films for OFA. 

The total dog is MUCH more than hips and elbows. But as for the age of breeding, that is why most people say two. Adult temperament is another, but one should be able to have a good idea of that a few months prior to two years.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Other considerations about age of breeding is the mental and physical maturity of the bitch, and her overall health -- which would be a consideration at any age. But whelping and raising a litter can take more of a toll on a young bitch if she is thin anyway or not fully grown. And some young bitches do not make the best mothers, but there is no way of telling that until you have a litter of puppies. 

Females do tend to gain their adult temperaments quicker than males. A twenty month old male can still be bouncing off the walls in puppy insanity, while a twenty month old female ought to be a bit more serious (don't mention Bear, she's defective), this is in general. 

Sometimes it really is timing. If your bitch will be two in April and goes into heat in March, well, six months from then is September, Whelping in November, ready to go in January. If you breed her in March, puppies are born in May, and ready to go in July -- might be a better time for socializing and potty training, etc. Might be easier on the new owners. Might be easier to sell them at that time of the year.


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## VTcoach (Jun 28, 2005)

If you want everything in place per the german SV system, 2 years is the earliest you can get a breed survey done.  In order to get a breed survey you must having passing x-rays, a conformation rating and a title for your dog. Some people breed an early litter just to see that the female can produce, before they invest more time and money in the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

VTcoach said:


> If you want everything in place per the german SV system, *2 years is the earliest you can get a breed survey done*. In order to get a breed survey you must having passing x-rays, a conformation rating and a title for your dog. Some people breed an early litter just to see that the female can produce, before they invest more time and money in the dog.


This is not true. My bitch was born October, 2009 and had her breed survey done in July of 2011. And she was bred under the German system prior to two years.


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## VTcoach (Jun 28, 2005)

selzer said:


> This is not true. My bitch was born October, 2009 and had her breed survey done in July of 2011. And she was bred under the German system prior to two years.


You are probably right. I'd have to go look up the all the rules.
The dog needs to be a minimum age for the BH, AD and then SchH title, but you can get the title at less than 2 years. Thus, as long as you have all the requirements, you should be able to get a survey just before 2 years. Thanks for the correction.


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## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

thanks for the info. the bitch was born here in the states and does have FO, PA titles. OFA fair prelim. so from the info you have responded with shouldnt be a problem with age. just wanted to be sure that the breeding wasnt a bad thing prior to the 2yr age. im still searching for my future pup so just trying to gather as much info as i can.


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## eiyse98ls1 (Aug 2, 2011)

i read the age wrong on the bitch. she iwas born on 11/09 which means she is suppose to have here litter before the age of 2.


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