# croup? withers? need help understanding



## sagelfn

I posted some pictures of Sage up in the critique section here and on another board. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/137876-sage-12-months.html

Critique was given by someone I really respect in this area but I'm kind of clueless as to what it means...

"Very athletic appearing young male with an ok withers and not a bad topline overall. His croup should be longer and is a little steep. He has a VERY tight coat and good color. Sufficient angulation front and rear. He looks to have good feet, but his pasterns are a bit upright. Photos and positioning are not bad."

what does okay withers mean and croup...ah! for the life of me I'm not understaning croup. 

Can someone help explain or/and post a picture of a dog with ideal croup and withers


----------



## JKlatsky

I've always found this to be very helpful. To my mind, croup is that section of the dog where the back flows into the tail. If your consider the showline dogs, you can see where it's more gradual.

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, THE HINDQUARTERS

It seems many workingline dogs show a short slightly steep croup. This seems to suggest that in part it has to do with tailset and tail carriage.

Withers are the section above above the shoulder blades. Sort of where the back meets the neck where you would put your backpack if you were going hiking  The link below shows good, steep, and flat withers.

The Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, THE FOREHAND


----------



## onyx'girl

I like this site, for the GSD structure and the historical changes of the breed...
past to present


----------



## JKlatsky

*Withers.*
Good








Steep








Flat


----------



## sagelfn

JKlatsky said:


> *Withers.*
> Good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Steep
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flat


can you draw a line on Sage :help:

those dogs are so different, guess thats where I confuse myself

going to check out those links posted


----------



## JKlatsky

I know it's confusing. I have a hard time explaining exactly what it means...I think it's just sort of something you get a feel for? It seems to me that the Amlines are more typically criticized for high withers, and the German lines for flat withers...

Back sometimes ago Anka was critiqued as having high withers.









And Argos as having flat withers.









I can see the difference between the 2 (Although not anatomically with the lines... ) And Sage looks somewhere in between to me...maybe leaning a little more towards flat? Which would be why his were critiqued as Ok? I don't know- shot in the dark  I'm learning too.

Incidentally both Argos and Anka were said to have short steep croups.


----------



## JKlatsky

As a point of comparison on croup...This is Ike. He has some Showlines back in there and a number of V-rated working dogs. He has a much longer croup, which I *think* looks pretty good. Although this is a pretty terrible picture of him in pretty poor shape because it was the day we brought him home. I also think he has flat withers...but I think they look worse than they should in this picture because he has very little muscle mass over his back. You can't really see because of the fur, but you could feel his spine.


----------



## sagelfn

thank you! I can see the withers thing now and agree I think he is in between leaning more towards flat 

croup..still lost but I'll probably just have to keep looking and eventually I'll grasp it


----------



## Vandal

_AKC Standard_
_Topline_: The_ withers_ are higher than and sloping into the level back. 












_AKC Standard_
_Croup_ long and gradually sloping.

The croup is right before the tail and behind the back. I think some people think the croup starts in the middle of the back because of the way some dogs are built nowadays but that is not correct. It is as this picture illustrates....or it is suppoed to be anyway.


----------



## sagelfn

Thank you 

I also posted this on another board and think I figured it out, forgot to update this

I am wondering though, a dog with a short croup will also have a steep croup right?


----------



## Vandal

Not necessarily. They can have a short, flat croup etc

Edited to add: Look at the picture I posted there. That is supposed to be ideal. Then when you look at your dog, compare it to that. Maybe take that picture I just posted and then paste your dog's picture right underneath.


----------



## Vandal

Here is another one that explains the angles etc


----------



## sagelfn

for comparison

I do see how its a little steep but not really the long/short difference


----------



## Vandal

Well...looks like Lisa is going to have to splain herself then. :laugh:

Actually, it can be very hard to tell exactly, especially when you are looking at pictures. That is because if the photographer takes the shot from a little in front of the dog or behind it, vs with the camera pointed directly at the side of the dog, it can change the way things look. 
I speak from years of experience of dogggie picture taking. When I go thru the hundreds it takes to get one good one, it has become clear to me just how important it is to get the stack right and that the photographer is in the right place. It "looks" like whoever took the picture was taking it more from the front of the dog, if you know what I mean. That makes it harder to see the croup and it can look different than it is as a result.

Keep working on the stack, it needs a little adjusting. Have fun, there is nothing quite as frustrating as trying to get the perfect shot of a stacked dog. 

Hopefully, you will get a few comments from others more gifted in the structure reading stuff than I am. I just play a judge on TV. 
.


----------



## sagelfn

Vandal said:


> Well...looks like Lisa is going to have to splain herself then. :laugh:
> 
> Actually, it can be very hard to tell exactly, especially when you are looking at pictures. That is because if the photographer takes the shot from a little in front of the dog or behind it, vs with the camera pointed directly at the side of the dog, it can change the way things look.
> I speak from years of experience of dogggie picture taking. When I go thru the hundreds it takes to get one good one, it has become clear to me just how important it is to get the stack right and that the photographer is in the right place. It "looks" like whoever took the picture was taking it more from the front of the dog, if you know what I mean. That makes it harder to see the croup and it can look different than it is as a result.
> 
> Keep working on the stack, it needs a little adjusting. Have fun, there is nothing quite as frustrating as trying to get the perfect shot of a stacked dog.
> 
> Hopefully, you will get a few comments from others more gifted in the structure reading stuff than I am. I just play a judge on TV.
> .


This was the first time I ever got him to stay in a somewhat stacked position. It was just me, no helper taking pictures. Had to set him and then take pictures. Thats why he's looking into the camera and not forward...always has to watch mom. Next time I'll also have him on a hard surface so you can see his feet better.

I read somewhere, maybe on this board to take a picture focused more on the front of the dog instead of the middle or rear so thats what I did :crazy:

Yours, Lisa's, and everyones critique has been awesome and very helpful. Thank you  I am always open for more though


----------



## Vandal

Well, maybe they know something about taking pictures that I don't. That's entirely possible but when I look at your picture, I have a hard time deciding about the croup. It is hard to see the tail set and therefore I look and think long croup and then when I look again, I think no...maybe not. So, I would think you might get varying opinions based on the angle of the photo.
I was recently taking a bunch of pictures and when I had the pics taken as directly from the side as I could get it, I was immediately happy with the result. I could see who the dog was, both the good and the not so good.

Most of the time, in order to get a nice stack shot , you need three people. One to stack the dog, one to take pics and one to get the dog to look in the right place with his ears up. Everyone has to be doing their part at exactly the right time and it requires finesse and concentration. It is best not to do this with relatives because there will be a brawl if one person keeps screwing up. lol.


----------



## lhczth

sagelfn said:


> Critique was given by someone I really respect in this area but I'm kind of clueless as to what it means...
> 
> "Very athletic appearing young male with an ok withers and not a bad topline overall. His croup should be longer and is a little steep. He has a VERY tight coat and good color. Sufficient angulation front and rear. He looks to have good feet, but his pasterns are a bit upright. Photos and positioning are not bad."
> 
> what does okay withers mean and croup...ah! for the life of me I'm not understaning croup.


 When I give a critique I try to point out the positive things about the dog while softening my comments on the bad. So, an OK withers means they are not flat but not perfect either.


----------



## sagelfn

lhczth said:


> When I give a critique I try to point out the positive things about the dog while softening my comments on the bad. So, an OK withers means they are not flat but not perfect either.


 its okay, I love him even though he is far from perfect. I would not be crushed or mad if you pointed out any of his flaws. Trying to learn more about all of this stuff and its nice to see it on my dog


----------

