# Very wary of strangers? Acts tough with other dogs?



## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

My 3 month old pup has decided that he no longer likes people (I've only got him recently). He did not have anything traumatizing happen to him. He used to be super eager to greet people, but now he hates them.

He's GREAT with me, listens SUPER well, loves to snuggle. He's all around wonderful. But he hates other people.

It doesn't matter who they are or how they approach, he will do everything he possibly can to avoid them. He often tries to hide behind me, but I don't let him. He will put himself in a corner and just avoid the situation. If someone offers him food, SOMETIMES he will go and take it, but then he'll just walk away and avoid again.

When he sees another dog, all the hair on his back stands up and he BARKS like he's mean. He thinks he's a big tough guy.
Being that he's only 3 months old, and already displaying this behaviour, I'm worried that I'm doing something very, very wrong.
He is wonderful with my lab, she's 2 years old. He plays with her and sleeps with her, and when she's had enough she tells him and he respects her.

My parent's beagle tried to put him in his place yesterday, and he turned around and attacked my parent's dog which caused a huge fight. 

I'm starting to stress big time, my precious little boy is NOT the same dog when we are out in public that he is at home.
I want him to be social and polite with people AND other dogs. I'm trying to socialize him the best I can; we go to the dog park, the pet store, I basically take him everywhere with me.

I'm raising him the exact same way I did with my lab, and she is wonderful..

Where am I going wrong!?


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I think this situation could get out of control fast, so I will not offer any advice as I'm no expert. I know when I'm in over my head, and this situation would make me look for a highly qualified trainer experienced with these dogs. 

Good luck and hope it turns out well.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd get a trainer involved sooner rather then later. I'm on my third personal dog after being around dogs every day of my life and each one has needed different training. It doesn't mean that you're lacking in any way


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't try to force any socialization on him. Ask people to ignore him. Keep him out in the world, but use distance to let him settle down. Don't put him in a position of being put in his place. The only thing I think your doing wrong is confusing him with your Lab. He's not the same dog.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

This is many times how a fearful dog acts....try and keep the pup below threshold but continue exposure..at a greater distance before he goes off ....it's a balancing act, both patience and your awareness of your dog's posturing is crucial.

Exposing your pup to these phobias using desensitizing and counterconditioning seems to be one way to go. This link should give you an idea as to a possible method to employ. Counterconditioning seems counterintuitive but if the positive reward is utilized properly before your pup reaches it's threshold, you will have positive results. 

It can be a long road to normalcy for a fearful dog but the sooner you start, the sooner your pup will get over it's hang ups. Your leadership, confidence and ability to be a step or two ahead of the pup is paramount. Once the hackles are up, you are behind the curve. Watch for the dog's ears to point more toward the object of it's fear as well as the head changing position along with the dog's gait. Once you become aware of this body english your dog displays you will know you are either at threshold or a millisecond from exceeding it.

This link might offer some information which could get you started.

https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virt...avior/desensitization-and-counterconditioning


SuperG


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It is not you, it's the dog. 

None of this is desirable, but it's not an uncommon thing even in a young puppy that ended up with the right combination of genetics. 

Some of this behavior might change with maturity. Right now, he's really young and is feeling uncomfortable around strangers, is frightened by them, and definitely wants them to GO AWAY. But he can't do much about it because he is very young and still really a baby, is physically not super powerful, and is mentally very immature. Hence the threat and tough guy displays, and when he is overwhelmed, the hiding. He wants them to go away so he can relax.

Even if you kept him away from people and other dogs for the next 12 months, you might end up with an aloof adult male that simply doesn't bother with people or other dogs. Or you could end up with a dog that sees everyone and every strange dog as a threat that must go away. Correct socialization and training can help tilt the odds in your favor.

What I like to do when they are so young is keep them from reacting to strangers and dogs while still exposing them to these things. That means keeping distance, usually. Work on sit with treat, tug, and fetch at a distance where he is calm and focused on you. If he starts acting, back off until he can focus on you again. 

I do not allow strangers to approach, no patting, no cutesy faces, nada. With this type of dog I want strangers to be nothing to the dog. I don't want this type of dog ever approaching strangers for treats, or engaging with them in any way unless there is a specific purpose. For example, if you visit your parents frequently, it's fine to have them feed him treats and play with him to make friends and get him comfortable with them.

But for everyone else they are just background noise. Basically, the dog needs to ignore strangers and ignore strange dogs. The end goal- an aloof dog that is totally handler focused. It's also a good idea to work on obedience behaviors because a dog that is heeling can't be lunging.

Every time the pup gets overwhelmed, figure out what went wrong and avoid putting your dog in that situation again. At this age, run away from people and be rude if you have to in order to avoid having your pup react. I'm not advocating you go through life as a hermit, but he's really young and the more he practices "freaking out" and feeling insecure around other dogs/people, the more ingrained that feeling will get. The end goal is to have him calmly heel past other dogs/people.

Once he's 6 to 7 months you can start more advanced work. But right now, let him watch people, dogs etc. from a safe distance and reward him for calm behavior. 

And working with a trainer is a great idea. If you can find a good one and that can be really difficult. I'd recommend someone familiar with GSD. In my experience with this type of dog, clicker-treat is not going to cut it, you'll need to use fair corrections at some point but only when the dog is mature enough.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

*Been there done that..*

I don't think the dog will grow out of this > ? I had a dog just like you describe 13 years. Maximillian, III (the third) was a kennel dog until 4 months when I got him. Shovel shy, brought him to meet my friend (co worker) and the dog shied away. Looked but walked in a different direction. Dubbed the wimp when they saw Max at the Swap Meet with other animals the exact same thing, aggressive (boy were they both surprised). Max was ahead of his time 50 years. He was my dog and my dog alone. Max was sweet, so don't let people tell you your dog is a liability until the occurrence occurs, as it may never. Max was a great breeding stud, and show, but never was a guard dog..... If he does not meet your expectations, re-home him before he is mature, but I'd say, if he bonds to you and does not bite, you've got one **** of a dog.....

One day the sliding door to the back yard was closed, Max leaped through the open window...Don't underestimate until you KNOW !!! 

SGCSG


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## Waffle Iron (Apr 3, 2012)

kayepaye said:


> I'm raising him the exact same way I did with my lab, and she is wonderful..
> 
> Where am I going wrong!?



Well if you're trying to raise a GSD the same way you have raised Labs, that might be a starting point for where things are going wrong. GSD's are not labs. They cannot be raised like labs. They require _*a lot *_more socialization and training and in a specific manner. 

I would strongly suggest contacting a trainer with GSD experience as soon as possible. 

In the interim, if you want to go through how you have been training your GSD, that might help us get some better suggestions going on here.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Not to argue, but I wouldn't look at this as a breed issue. This is just a basic dog/temperament thing. When I mentioned your lab, I was speaking strictly about their specific temperaments. The two dogs in front of you.


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## Nino84 (Dec 8, 2014)

Hi,
@ Kayepaye. I am new to the forum and I am having the same issues you are experiencing. Mishka is 3 months old and yesterday was her first walk around the block, for she just had her 3rd round of vaccine done 4 days ago. So this morning she saw our neighbor leaving to work and she immediately stopped and did not want to keep walking, her hair in her back was standing up, she started barking and acting a little shy and nervous. I really want our dog to be social, this is our first dog and I want to avoid mistakes that in the future may hunt us. I am aware that GSD are not friendly like labs, but I have seen well behaved GS before
I hope someone in the forum can help us with this problem.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Without seeing your pups. My best advice is to not make a giant deal out of stuff. Just keep walking. Maybe grab a bit if food to entice and then move forward. Teach them that people and stuff are not big deals. 

If you stop, coddle, comfort, they learn that something IS scary. But if you just go about your business, they will learn that it's not a big deal. 

I am not a fan if forced socialization. They should not be expected to allow strangers to touch and fawn all over them. They should be expected and taught to just BE around people.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

gsdsar said:


> I am not a fan if forced socialization. They should not be expected to allow strangers to touch and fawn all over them. They should be expected and taught to just BE around people.


This exactly.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Wonderful thread on socialization > http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html

Get a trainer involved ASAP. You want to find a trainer very experienced in GSD and/or working breeds. I am stopping short of saying behaviorist but you definitely want a trainer that trains more then just OB commands but also temperament behavior issues.

Find a way to get your own stress under control. Your stress WILL affect your puppy.

Forget about comparing your GSD to your LAB. I have both breeds, totally different temperaments.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Don't try to force any socialization on him. Ask people to ignore him. Keep him out in the world, but use distance to let him settle down. Don't put him in a position of being put in his place. The only thing I think your doing wrong is confusing him with your Lab. He's not the same dog.


pretty much !

too much too soon, an agenda by a calendar or timeline without "feeling" the dog.

too much close contact with other dogs -- overwhelmed and displaying fear (hair up) defensive reaction , not thinking he is a tough guy.

see http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

rabies vaccines recently given?


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## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

I know that he's not the same as my lab in any way, I'm not comparing them thinking they are the same, obviously I understand they are different breeds, and have different personalities.
I was talking more from a general dog training/socialization stand point; I'm using the same techniques with him that I did with my lab, to boost confidence and socialize.

Unfortunately in my small town, the options for good quality trainers are scarce. I have found a wonderful one, I had a 1-hour interview with her, and she really seems to know what she's talking about. She's given me wonderful suggestions on how to boost his confidence, and we're going to be meeting with her twice weekly starting next week.

I didn't realize that "forced" socialization could backfire like many of you(and my trainer) have explained. I'm immediately going to start doing what Muskeg suggested, keeping him around people and other dogs, but at a distance, and keeping him focused on me.

I really want to get this under control before I completely ruin my dog. I don't want to traumatize him, or force him to be around people when he clearly doesn't want to be. I want him to want to be around people and other dogs, but I may just need to accept that he isn't going to be that kind of dog. I'm okay with that, I still love him and he's still a good dog. He gets along GREAT with my lab, and he gets a lot of confidence from her; he is much braver on walks when she comes along (instead of constantly looking over his shoulder behind us, he follows at her heels and doesn't seem fazed by much).

The hardest thing for me is going to be avoiding people, while still being around them. When you have a puppy, you are a magnet for "aww!" and "oh my gosh!" and "can I pet him!?" and EVERYONE stares. I should get a big balloon to carry with me that says "DON'T LOOK AT MY DOG!" or make him wear a shirt that says he's vicious haha.

I really want a well adjusted, happy dog, I don't want him to be miserable and scared every time we leave the house.
In the house and yard he is super confident and bubbly, and it's like his true personality comes out. But as soon as we leave the driveway he's a different dog.

I definitely don't coddle or spoil him in any way. He often tries to resource me, and use me as a shield, but my trainer made it very clear that I am not to let him do that. I don't pay any close attention to him when he's being insecure, I just go about my business and he follows, I try to keep his mind busy without directly addressing him.
I keep him walking, switch directions, stop and start, jog a few steps. I try to keep his focus on me and where I'm going, instead of on other things.
But what I'm hearing is that I should be talking to him and treating him and whatnot and being more involved? I'm just worried that by doing this I will be rewarding him for being scared? I'm just thinking aloud here.

It's been 2 years since I've had a puppy, and this is my first shepherd. I'm not a complete moron when it comes to dogs, I do have a great understanding of them, I've just never had this experience with a puppy before.

I'm sure I'm forgetting some things, but this is just a lot of information!

Also, someone had mentioned rehoming him; that isn't an option. I'm not just going to pass the problem on to somebody else, I want to help him be a confident, happy dog. That's my job as his mom, to help him be the best he can be, no matter what it takes.

And no, he has not had his rabies vaccines recently, I just got him a little over 2 weeks ago, so he hasn't even had his second booster yet.

I have a lot of learning to do, I'm glad I have this forum, and now my wonderful trainer to help


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

kayepaye said:


> She's given me wonderful suggestions on how to boost his confidence,
> of confidence from her;
> 
> 
> ...


I'm curious as to what the "wonderful suggestions" are so far? Is it mostly the elimination of being the dog's shield and simply proceed through a situation without paying it any undue attention on your behalf?...which makes good sense of course.

And most importantly.... the no "rehome" position you have taken is great to hear..I have a good feeling this attitude will eventually win the day...yes, it is your "job" and you accept it without reservation...wish there were so many more with your attitude in this type of situation.

SuperG


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I hear ya- even my adult dogs are magnets for awww, and stares. I'll get to that.

It certainly helps to walk a pup with a confident, unfazed dog. They feed off each other's energy and a pup is wired to learn from an adult dog. Walk them together when you don't need to focus on one-one-one with the pup, keeping in mind that you do need to pay attention to your pup and make sure he isn't lured too close to something he is unsure of because his lab-sister is along, and then totally overwhelmed by it.

There are a few ways to work with your pup when people are staring or just making him unsure. Learn to read your pup's early body language, so you can keep him from reacting by keying in to the signs he is getting uncomfortable. Often there is a "hard stare" and a stiff posture a pup adopts when he is starting to focus in a bad way on a person or dog. You can almost feel the tension in his body even if it is hard to see. 

When I see my pup starting to show these signs I have a few options depending on the stage we are in training and the situation. 

First, I try to make sure the leash is not tight. This is something to be really aware of and can diffuse a situation immediately in some cases. I also take a deep breath and relax my body. 

Then, in a very calm tone of voice I say my dog's name, and using either a treat/toy lure or a command (heel for example) I move his head and body so he is no longer facing the distraction. If he is not looking at it, he is going to have a hard time getting super focused and building up a bunch of negative thoughts.

If I can't get him to look at me and turn away with command or treats (for a young pup I'd use treats most of the time unless he really knows his commands) I use the leash or my body to move him around so he isn't looking at the person/dog. I'll body-block his view if I need to especially for a young pup.

At that point, if I have an option of simply walking away I may take it. Or I may try to work on some simple obedience like touch or sit or play a quick game of tug or fetch. If he's doing well, I may play a game of look at that, allowing him to look at the person quickly and then refocus on me. If that's too much for him, I'll just keep engaging him with me. 

If we are out walking and we pass something or someone and the pup does well, I make sure to praise him vocally every single time. And give him a quick treat after we've passed. A nice pass should get more and more common as you move forward with training, and what I described above (turn away, luring with treats) shouldn't be happening as often unless the distraction is really high. 

Also, it is much easier to get him to turn away and focus on you if you can catch him before he's built up a bunch of negative energy and/or has already started barking and reacting. That's why it's so critical to learn how to read your dog. If he's already going crazy at something, sometimes the only thing you can do is hang on, move away from whatever he's barking at, and vow to do better next time. It's bond to happen as you learn to work with your dog.

Almost daily I run into a situation where people really want to talk to me about my dogs especially when I'm training them in public parks. I'll hear "I'm not afraid of dogs" or, "It's OK, I like dogs" or all that kind of thing. Nope, nope. 

My first duty is to protect my dogs. I don't care if they are not afraid of dogs and my pup look so calm and well trained. I know my dogs and they don't. If I need to be rude and just walk away I will. I don't really like doing it, because I enjoy talking about my dogs with people, but my first obligation is to my dogs, not random education of the public. That said, I'm using a public area, and it is my duty to know my dogs, and make sure they are not a nuisance to anyone. 

Better to be rude than to give my pup a bad experience and scare the daylights out of the unsuspecting public. 

There is light at the end of the tunnel! I've been through some of this with one pup who is now 3 years old and can walk off leash on a busy bike trail without a problem. I will say again, though, that negative re-enforcement (punishment) is necessary for most dogs to "finish". But certainly you are not at that point with a young pup. I love to hear that you are in it for the long haul. A committed owner can make a huge difference.


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## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I'm curious as to what the "wonderful suggestions" are so far? Is it mostly the elimination of being the dog's shield and simply proceed through a situation without paying it any undue attention on your behalf?...which makes good sense of course.
> 
> And most importantly.... the no "rehome" position you have taken is great to hear..I have a good feeling this attitude will eventually win the day...yes, it is your "job" and you accept it without reservation...wish there were so many more with your attitude in this type of situation.
> 
> SuperG


I've only had one meeting for her, and so far those are the suggestions she has given me. Don't let him use me as a shield, and don't reward him or coddle him for acting scared. These are things I really already knew, but it helped to hear them from someone else too. I'm meeting with her on Thursday again for an hour to work on some confidence boosting, and distraction techniques with him.

I'm very excited to work with him, he's so smart, already knows several commands and I haven't even had him for 3 weeks yet. He really feels good about himself when he does something that I like, and I'm going to use that to my advantage with training.

My lab is totally NOT food motivated at all, which was really hard with training (we had to use toys and play as a reward), so it will be nice to be able to use yummy treats with this guy and work on him feeling good about himself and his surroundings.

I'm very grateful to have my lab, she has already taught him a lot, I couldn't imagine raising him without having a stable adult dog to help!


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## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I hear ya- even my adult dogs are magnets for awww, and stares. I'll get to that.
> 
> It certainly helps to walk a pup with a confident, unfazed dog. They feed off each other's energy and a pup is wired to learn from an adult dog. Walk them together when you don't need to focus on one-one-one with the pup, keeping in mind that you do need to pay attention to your pup and make sure he isn't lured too close to something he is unsure of because his lab-sister is along, and then totally overwhelmed by it.
> 
> ...


These are all wonderful suggestions! I will definitely be taking them with me in the future, and practicing them with Sawyer. I am very good at keeping calm, and making sure that I am not tense, so hopefully that energy can translate onto to him. I will have to watch his body language closely, though I know exactly the intense stare that you speak of! He always freezes before he becomes fixated on something. So I'll have to watch him closely to identify before he gets to that state, and distract him with something good.

Should I steer clear of pet stores for fear of someone getting too close? And just stick to the park and walks around the neighbourhood for now?

I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing for him, especially while he's young.

He has SO much potential, I can see it when we work in the house and the yard, he LOVES to please, he's super calm (unless he gets the zoomies!), and he's so smart!! He can sit, stay, roll over, shake a paw, touch, high five, crawl. He's 13 weeks old! He's a genius hahahaha.

Thanks again everyone for all of the advice! I will still love him even if he decides that he doesn't want to be around other people. He will just be my little sidekick while my lab can go off and love up the crowds.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

My guy (8mths) has recently become afraid of strangers which was a total surprise to me since he has always been calm around people and pretty much ignored strangers.Living in a rural area, I take him into town to walk once or twice a week to familiarize him with city noise and sights.Last week he began barking if he so much as caught sight of a person way down the street,and if they walked toward us he'd raise hackles and become extremely agitated.
Today as soon as he had a rowdy,happy playtime with our other two dogs I hustled him into the car and we drove down to a nearby gas station where there are lots of folks in and out.I spent about ten minutes running around with him on the grassy area close to the road distracting him with treats and trying (mostly successfully)to keep him focused on me,talking in a happy animated voice.After about ten minutes he was so well focused and relaxed we trotted back to the car,drove home, and took all three dogs for a mile walk.
My evil plan was to stuff the "scary strangers " in between fun and non stressful activities.He did better than I expected so we may have hit upon a good plan.
I guess my point is there's always a way to work out your dog's training/behavior quirks if jump on it right away and are willing to put in the thought and effort.Sounds like you are doing both and I'm sure you will be successful.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

What if your 5 month old pup does this when they see a person/dog from a distance, but are all wiggles and happy, pet me pet me when the person approaches? I'm assuming this is normal, bark at what moves (and I can't see clearly) type of behavior...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

If the pup is fine when he meets the stranger or dog from afar, this is not aggression or fear behavior - just normal puppy behavior. They will bark, whine, and vocalize at objects or beings that are unfamiliar to them and at a distance where they cannot make sense of it. Best way to handle the behavior is to not to start tensing up on the leash, walking away, or correcting the puppy. Rather, walk up slowly and calmly to the person or thing - let the puppy sniff, explore, and meet the strange object. Maybe have treats in hand in case there is some trepidation. 

Once pups are exposed to many different types of scenarios, they stop getting startled and barky about it. Also this 5-7m age is when you will see the pup start to mature a little more, start trying out his wings, and start dealing more with the outside world whereas before as a baby, he was glued to your side and obsessed with you. 

Now he is dealing with life and the outside world more, taking notice of new scenarios, and learning to take it in the right way so you'll see some of this weirdo behaviors but as long as the pup is calmly exposed to the stressor - he will learn it's no big deal and move on without having lasting effects


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## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

lauren43 said:


> What if your 5 month old pup does this when they see a person/dog from a distance, but are all wiggles and happy, pet me pet me when the person approaches? I'm assuming this is normal, bark at what moves (and I can't see clearly) type of behavior...


He isn't at all, when someone approaches he hides behind me and will stay as far away as her can. If they continue to advance he will panic and run. If he's on a leash this will include strangling himself to get away. He seems okay being around people unless they try to approach him.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

kayepaye: your puppy does seem to be exhibiting true fearful reactivity. I would enroll your puppy in a puppy class or better yet, hire a good trainer. You will need go carefully work with your puppy to help him manage his shaky nerves.


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## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

qbchottu said:


> If the pup is fine when he meets the stranger or dog from afar, this is not aggression or fear behavior - just normal puppy behavior. They will bark, whine, and vocalize at objects or beings that are unfamiliar to them and at a distance where they cannot make sense of it. Best way to handle the behavior is to not to start tensing up on the leash, walking away, or correcting the puppy. Rather, walk up slowly and calmly to the person or thing - let the puppy sniff, explore, and meet the strange object. Maybe have treats in hand in case there is some trepidation.
> 
> Once pups are exposed to many different types of scenarios, they stop getting startled and barky about it. Also this 5-7m age is when you will see the pup start to mature a little more, start trying out his wings, and start dealing more with the outside world whereas before as a baby, he was glued to your side and obsessed with you.
> 
> Now he is dealing with life and the outside world more, taking notice of new scenarios, and learning to take it in the right way so you'll see some of this weirdo behaviors but as long as the pup is calmly exposed to the stressor - he will learn it's no big deal and move on without having lasting effects


He is fine with strange people from a distance, doesn't pay any attention to them. It's when they approach us or they try to pet him or talk to him that he gets nervous and freaked out.
I definitely don't think he's aggressive, but he's VERY unsure of people.
With other dogs, I haven't let him meet any other than dogs that I KNOW are stable (with the exception of my parent's dog, that was a big mistake). He's been around 6-7 other dogs, including mine. And aside from my lab he will NOT approach other dogs. He'll go wander off with my lab at the park (which is just a fenced off tennis court) but if there's another dog that comes by he will run to me and hide. He raises his hackles when we're at the pet store and someone else has a dog, or if we're on a walk, but when we're at the park playing he'll just hide if there's another dog there.

If it's just him and my lab at the park he's great, but if there's another dog or person he'll sit at my feet and not move.


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## kayepaye (Nov 25, 2014)

qbchottu said:


> kayepaye: your puppy does seem to be exhibiting true fearful reactivity. I would enroll your puppy in a puppy class or better yet, hire a good trainer. You will need go carefully work with your puppy to help him manage his shaky nerves.


We are meeting with our trainer 2x weekly starting this week, and once we both feel he is comfortable we will put him into a group puppy class.


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