# Chimo's itchies.....



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

This is really beginning to baffle me as we cannot seem to find a CAUSE for it but there is one thing that I have finally figured out. 

Chimo has been having issues with hotspots again. This has been recurring from I think September. He will get one or two - off to the holistic vet and clears up. One of the meds that he gets is natural cortizone. He took his last one from the latest round yesterday AM. I see a spot that is wet from him already starting to bite again. There are NO fleas. This started a good month before the furnace kicked on for the first time so it isnt the two most common causes. This was either his third or fourth rounds of natural cortizone. He is also on natural antibiotics which he STILL has and is still taking. So it subtly starts after the cortizone is over.

ANY ideas???


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

allergies?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Okay, silly stupid question I am sure, but.. can it be something in the all-natural cortisone preparation? I know this started BEFORE the first application of the cortisone, but.. what is the carrier in the salve? Or, what is the binder/filler in the tablets, if it is tablet form?

As for what started the itchies.. are the neighbors using autumn end-of-season garden or lawn treatments? Or, has a "tree doctor" been out to prepare, spray, etc trees at the neighbor's yards?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

No treatments that I am aware of for the neighbors. I have NO clue what the allergies could be as it started pre-autumn and has continued with nearly continual snow/ice on the ground.

The natural cortizone is in pill form. The NC clears up the itches and they start again after he is off of it. Usually REALLY soon after. 

I had thought that perhaps he is having discomfort in his back since he has sponylosis. But the hot spots have been all over his hind quarters and tail. Never in the same place twice. Poor guy has a super pluch coat but his hind quarter has 4 different coat lengths. So I am thinking it isnt that.

Nothing else has changed really that would make me deduce an allergy.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

See that's what I thought. Miss Duchess had bald spots on her back legs, spot on her hinney, spots of hair off her back, really coarse hair. I also thought she was losing sensation which is why she was chewing on her backsides. 

She's suddenly developed allergies. I don't know if food or environmental. I didn't know dogs could get allergic to fish??? So I put her on chicken. I don't know if any of this has done any good yet as she got cortisone injected in her ear last wk so that's still in effect.

BUT I do know this about allergies (personal exp.) it can appear out of nowhere. So as I have a couple diff. formulas of food around, I moved her over for now to a diff. one. That doesn't work don't know what will, as I've already made tons of mods to my house, cleaning routine due to MY allergies, lol.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

He is still bouncy and active so I am doubting that it is his back. It could be an allergy but nothing has changed here except the weather and he has had them during still warm/sun, cool/rain and freezing/snow. Both his vet and I are baffled by what is causing it. Vet said he has seen a lot of "weird" things the last several months.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

nerve issue......


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

No other indicatations of nerve issues. I only saw his back "damp" today in one spot, one time. I am tempted to call the vet and have them send me some more natural cortizone jic. His antibiotics will be done on Sunday (or Mon AM). Which if the pattern follows suit it would be right around Wed for everything to go wrong. Perhaps since I only saw what appeared to be him biting once earlier he just simply "had an itch" and will finally be through with all this stuff.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Is he on any vitamins or supplements for joints? Weird question I know, but-- with my last GSD I had been giving him "MoveFree" or "Flex-a-Min" from Walmart, a joint supplement for people. It had glucosamine and chrondroitin in it. Wellllllll... the fillers that hold the pills together, over time, set Chell up for hot spots and itching. I ran out of the pills... couldn't get out to get more, and.. the longstanding problem just stopped. The fillers giving pills their shape and consistency can have all sorts of yuck in them that dogs do not process well, and the skin tries to excrete it as best it can. Just a thought.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It's not an infection either right? Like it does not look like a German Shepherd pyoderma, right? 

http://www.vetontheweb.co.uk/pet-clinic-detail.asp?id=331

I wonder if going to see the dermatology people at Cornell would help? 

I love that dog!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Jean, you saw him when he was at his worse. The others have been pretty small and pretty quick to clear up- especially the last one that I caught AND was able to immediately get meds for very quickly. 

Patti, yes ALL of my guys are on suppliments. Vit C & E and Gluc/MSN and Salmon Oil or Fish Oil- all in the human varieties. Now you have me wondering......I think it was Aug or Sept when I upped all of the Sheps to 1K to 2K of Vit C.

So far that ONE time yesterday was the only time I saw him wiht the "suspiciously wet fur from POSSIBLE licking". Perhaps I am paranoid. I just do not want him miserable over the Holidays if he SHOULD get another one and the Vet is closed. Of course his vet is 50 miles away and with all the horrible weather and OT it is VERY hard to get there when they are open.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

As far as the link Jean I do not think so. Each outbreak has been in one area (two on the worst flare up). His fur is growing back in each area.......He has such a thick coat though it is all in different lengths. Poor guys is having a 3 month long bad hair day.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Ruq, here is what I heard from a "veterinary pharmacologist".. whatever the heck that is. His name was Mike, and he works for .. uhh.. a well-known pet pharmaceutical co.

He explained that the metals, salts, and sometimes even cheap powdered plastics (yes, plastics!! think: product made in USA.. from ingredients from CHINA) in human preps to "hold the pills together" and give them a shape, what we call fillers, can be rough on a dog-- even if a dog has been on the same exact human supplement for many months or years. Eventually, the body just gives up trying to excrete the mess through the GI and tries to shove the baddies out through the skin. 

The second clue that human grade stuff can cause problems is: It's the senior dogs who get the hotspots and itchies. Young dogs in a pack can, for many months, tolerate the same fillers better than seniors can.

Another thing he mentioned: Human grade stuff is cheaper. BUT.. stuff made for dogs is, if made properly, at a molecular weight that the dog can and will absorb all of the intended supplement.

I myself use human fish oil, human Vit. E with Grimm...... but I keep an eye out for itchies with this stuffm even though both the fish oil and Vit. E are not compressed, compounded tablets but just oil capsules.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Hmmmm sooooo how can I get him his Vit C and gluco? Well I know Gluco is made for dogs but Vit C?

ETA:

Wonder if Chimo's vet could hook up up with liquid C?


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

not sure if this helps but years ago I was buying powered vit c(non pill form)


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

What about buying a big bag of frozen (cheaper!) blueberries? Toss a few onto his kibble twice per day?

OR-- Drs FosterSmith online has vitamin C for dogs!

To be honest, I switched to their (Drs FosterSmith) house brand glucosamine supplement because white it wasn't exactly as cheap as the human stuff, it was not only well-tolerated, but ALL of the active ingredients were absorbed, as it is designed to be the correct molecular weight for a dog's body to absorb. I spoke with "Mike" in their pharmacy. VERY helpful. And finally-- no more itchies.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

More vitamin C:
http://thomasvetdrug.com/index.php/cName/vitamins-cvitamins

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/product_de...&click=124&mf=2

You can also froogle vitamin c or vitamin e dog for other brands.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

My guys LOVE blueberries. But even frozen they are expensive for 6 mouths.







Not to mention I would have no idea of how much to give them the same amount. 

Patti, Chimo is offended that you said to pour blueberries over his *kibble[/]! 

Chimo quitely slurps the raw chicken goobers from between his toes and winks at Patti that is really isn't THAT offended

I wonder.....*


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Too bad I can't ship you some in May when the u picks are open down here. That's how I get mine and I can them, freeze them, syrup, blueberry spice jam, yum!!!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Hmmm May?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I am gonna SCREAM! Less than a week off the antibiotic and he is touchy and starting to bite again. He has to be allergic to SOMETHIGN but I cant figure out what it is. Right now he is only on his 3 "vet meds" and his suppliments are fish oil (salmon) and Vit E. I dropped any capsules after reading Patti's posts about them to see if it might be those. He has a TINY hot spot but I am hoping the liquid topical meds for those will suffice to ward it off. We will pick up more natural cortizone tomorrow. I wonder if he is allergic to this house. I am beginning to think I am but it could be because I had trying to move for the last THREE years!

If I can I will talk to him about any testing options tomorrow and go with that.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

What antibiotic, and did it completely resove the itching?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Remember, if you stopped the supplements, it may take some time to get it all out of his system.. in fact, that may be what he is trying to do now with the latest aggrevating hotspot!

If supplements aren't the issue, and maybe it is something in the environment ( a polite way of saying "Gee, I remember being half-moved, half-not-moved.. I wonder if her place looks as dusty as MINE did?"), then how 'bout the skin prick test? I had it done on ME. Whoa! Weird results-- but very indicative and cool to be able to KNOW what sets my system off. This way, they can test Chimo against mold, (can be in the home and we wouldn't always know it) dust, cat dander/saliva, grasses, trees, pollens, etc.

Did I miss it before, what is he eating? Just trying to help THINK here... I want hunkman Chimo feeling BETTER! He's one of my faves here!! I would absolutely go with the prick test or any allergy tests that the vet is willing to do. We LOVE Chimo!!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Chimo is eatting a totally raw diet. Right now he is getting a LOT of venison- fresh off the hoof.









This all started in Septmeber- height of fall allergy season. But he has also had outbreaks when the temps are bitter cold and we are buried under 2 feet of snow. 

This place was old 9 years ago when I moved in.







House cleaning has NEVER been my strong suit. It isnt any more dusty than normal but the clutter is enough to drive me mad (and I am fairly used to clutter). That is the main project for this weekend though. 

We need a nice lush new pad. Log cabin in the country with some sheep for the dogs to work, space for the non-profit.....a winning lottery ticket would sure come in handy about now.









I prefer taking Chimo to the holistic vet but his testing is fairly limited.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTWhat antibiotic, and did it completely resove the itching?


One from the holistic vet that has totally slipped my mind right now and YES totally resolved the itching, 100%.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Any potatoes in the raw diet? Was he on the venison pretty much always? Do you use a spray or poweder or solution to clean carpets? It doesn't seem like contact but maybe inhalant allergies or diet. Or even one of the meds MAY be suspect. (some dogs get itchy from the stuff that holds together even pills for dogs-- just a thought?) 

The fact that this resolves with antibiotics *almost* makes me think there's a bacteria involved... but i bet the allergy testing, even if going to an allopathic vet for this, might give good clues for sweetie Chimo!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I will talk to the vet more tomorrow. I am definitely getting better at catching the symptoms earlier. This time started with icky ears a couple days ago (26th) and then I saw him scratch his muzzle a couple of times yesterday, also noticed yesterday that his back was again a little sensitive to touch.

Chimo is going on the ride with me tomorrow incase the vet wants to take a look at him.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LisaTWhat antibiotic, and did it completely resove the itching?
> ...


I have difficulty understanding how an antibiotic can completely resolve itching from allergies. Antibiotics do have cooling properties and can sometimes act as an ant-iinflammatory.

It still sounds neurological to me, with some inflammation.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Pacing the floor for an update on Chimo Da Hunk. I do hope the vet not only looked at him-- but really LISTENED to you, running everything through his or her mental diagnostic filter. If nothing registers for the vet, I hope he or she will refer you to a specialist. Eiother internal med ordermatologist. Chimo's fans have paws crossed for good news and info and ideas from the vet for him!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

We haven't even left yet. Gotta love the time zone differences huh?







We will be off soon.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

We are back. It was a COLD drive but we managed. 

We came home with his Renal meds and liquid Prostate drops but Doc decided to change it up and sent allergy legumes (sp) instead of his regular B Complex liquids. He also has refills of his amox and natural cortisone. I have had Amoxicillin from the regular vets but this stuff is "different". I am not sure what the difference is but it IS different. 

When I called the office yesterday, the Doc was out (does farm calls on Tues). The receptionist and I were not sure if Chimo needed a "visit" per se or just refills. I opted to take him along JIC. Doc and I decided to run a full blood panel to try to find out WHAT is causing all of this. He said he would give Chimo the "power shot" that immediately alleviates all symptoms even though they are much milder now than they were in November when he had the horrible outbreak. 

I should have the blood results back on Wed (because of the holiday).


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Ruqs,

Has Chimo been picking up on your Stress, like from loosing your dad, you hate your job, helping your mom, you working so many overtime hours this month?????? Oh lets not forget the trip the van took into the snow bank.

Stress will lower the immune system and something that doesn't bother him normally could be causing the problems. 

I think you need to have a nice sit down with Chimo and see if he is stressed because of the way things have been.

Val


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

This started in Sept, a month before my Dad passed away. Granted Dad was in and out of the hospital all year. This go around though I have been fairly "low stress" as I had a 4 day weekend last week and another this weekend. I tend to vent a lot online but generally speaking I am pretty even keeled. I am MUCH happier when I am home with my Paq so they don't feel as much of my stress- most of the time. At this point I am not ruling ANYTHING out because Chimo is pretty sensitive to me. At least he has his meds and will be comfy again until we get the blood test back next week.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I thank Val has a good point. 

Renal meds? Is this a dog with kidney problems?

Looking forward to the blood results. 

I ahven't seen anyone else use this, but me, but when Max gets those itchies that turn to hotspots, I use Scullcap and Black Cohosh and it calms it quite a bit. The scullcap helps relax the nervous sytem and the BC is cooling, balancing, and helps the stomach there's another reason why I first chose the BC but don't remember why. I think it particularly helps with the panting, which coincides with Max's itchies. 

Indy loves amoxy and it is great for her back issues. But then again, there are tick issues with her, and she gets touch sensitive and apprehensive as part of her profile. The abx do wonders for her, and taking her off always results in some decline.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

When Chimo was neutered in 9/07 his pre op blood work came back with "slightly" high kidney levels. He has been on homeopathic renal meds since. He had a full blood panel done either 12/07 or 1/08 so about a year ago, 3 months after his surgery. He was on 2x the meds then and Doc has kept him on them 1x since the levels returned to the normal range. He said "they are not THAT bad but they are old". The vet was shocked over his blood work results last year. He said absolutely EVERYTHING was well within normal ranges. Most young dogs have at least one or two things close to being "out of whack". For a dog Chimo's age to come back 100% normal was AWESOME and attested to his care and diet.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I am really interested in hearing what the results say, especially now with the idea that he may have renal issues... or may be totally well controlled on the homeopathic stuff-- which I hope that he is! But.. I am curious to know those values. I am glad he got the fix-it-up shot right now. I will also echo what Val said-- please just chew it over, as if it were one of those big black Tuffy Kongs.... know? Just consider that stress in our lives accumulates, piles up-- and months AFTER crappy stuff happens to us, when we are in now way even THINKING about it-- gopsh... our knees hurt, or we feel tired alot, or our tummy is queasy when we wake up, or.. etc. Even if we can block out effects of stress, our most trusted four-footers sense when we are stressed. Maybe more long hot baths for you, rocky road icecream, free-running gallumps in nature with the pack.. whatever helps you with your own stress. Even if this isn't the cause.. doesn't the rocky road sound GOOD??







Paws crossed for helpful results from the blood tests!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq.... For a dog Chimo's age to come back 100% normal was AWESOME and attested to his care and diet.


Hey, I'm all over that!! Great job









Let us know what the blood results say.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Dr H has mentioned MANY times that dogs are DRAWN to the homeopathic medicines that they need. I am beginning to think Chimo should be a homepatic doggie doctor. Yesterday, Dr. H said we were going to change some stuff up for Chimo. He said that he isn't going to refill his BComplex (liquid med) but give him the allergy legumes (sp) instead. Chimo is always AWESOME at taking his meds and typically REMINDS me, in his ever gentle way, if I am running late or forget. For a short while now, maybe roughly a week might be two, he has been pulling back from his liquid meds. Tonight he ONLY pulled back from one and got me to thinking has it been just the ONE med this whole time and I missed it? The one he did not want to take tonight was the B Complex. I am pretty sure it was the same one at least a couple of other times but now I wonder if he was gently telling me it was time to change.







I am thinking of calling Dr H tomorrow and see what he thinks. Chimo willingly took his AL and Prostate liquid meds tonight with no issues.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Let me know what the doc thinks. This is interesting! I wonder if Chimo just knows what helps him best, and what causes itchies? Smart dog, regardless.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I always swear that Cheyenne knows what is good for her. When we were having problems with her tummy and we were trying to find a food that worked, she flat out refused to eat some foods, others she would nibble at, but in less than a week she had explosive diahrrea. If I make her beef treats out of store purchased meat, she will always stop smell them and look at me like where is the good stuff woman. She won't chew on bones unless they are from our beef that a friend raises for us, no hormones.

Ruqs are you feeding any chicken or turkey that could have been fed hormones for growth. All of the chicken usnless it states no hormones on the package has been fed hormones in their feed.

Val


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Hmmmmm about the chicken/turkey- yes he would have. Right now I am kind of limited on where I can purchase from.


_Tries to keep from muttering about wanting a new farm to raise my own food for the furries_


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Just a thought. Do you have any egg farms around. I don't think they feed hormones to the layers, you could maybe get old laying hens.

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Could you afford to do organic, hormone-free JUST for his RMBs? The MM could be whatever other than chicken, like beef hearts or lamb stomachs or whatever is available there for MM?


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

They actually do not get chicken THAT often. I was actually going to go out and get them some for today before reading Val's post. I could "afford" to do the organic chicken/turkey but I may not have ACCESS to it. I have a lot of "organic" Venison.







Technically he has been on a mostly organic diet since mid October (lots of venny). 

I will be digging out the last two cases of Ducks (one neck, one frame) to break apart and he can use those for his RMB until I can get to our regular shopping venue. They are 70 miles away ONE way and getting there in the winter can be a dangerous task to undertake. Of course THIS week would have been a GREAT time to go weatherwise but they have been closed since Christmas. They close one week a month- 2 around Christmas/New Year. 

I need to reorganize my freezers and sell off some of this OM that my dogs could not eat in THREE years.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Ok so I am once again happy as a lark but still perplexed. 

1) state of confusion: I was told I would have the results probably on Wed. Got a message on my machine today. Blood work taken less than a week after his 11th bday came back with 100% normal.









2) perplexed: why he is itchy. Might have to go to the other vet for some answers. At least she is VERY nice about helping with diagnosis but allowing me to get the treatment from the natural vet.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Great news about the blood results!!

Just curious, was a thyroid test included? Didn't think about it before -- itchiness is not supposed to come with low thyroid, but there are some reports.

IF you feel like experimenting, try some Scullcap and Black Cohosh for about 4 days and see if that makes a difference. If it does, then you know it's the nervous system and not the food, etc..

Great news abou the bloodwork


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Where would I get Scullcap and Black Cohosh and how much would I need to give him?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I get it at the local health food store -- it's a real health food store, not like GNC. Or you can get them from here, but it will take a bit:

http://www.vitacost.com/Natures-Way-Scullcap-Herb
http://www.vitacost.com/Natures-Way-Black-Cohosh-Root

When Max flairs up, I give him one of each with his breakfast and one of each with his dinner. It can be given on an empty stomach.

Funny, after you posted about Chimo, Max started itching like crazy, so I had to start him up on it again. With him, I think it comes from his low back, triggered by when they had to sedate him when he tore his dew claw. 

Black Cohosh is typically given for women, but in chinese medicine, it has other properties. The first several paragraphs of this page allude to some of that: http://www.bodyandfitness.com/Information/Herbal/Research/black2.htm

A bit about scullcap: http://www.diet-and-health.net/Naturopathy/Scullcap.html

I use this combo on Max, haven't tried it on any other dog though....


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

YESSSS on his 100% normal blood results at age 11! Kind of a super B-Day present, a bit late, huh?







I think this is super that you can go to the other vet for answers, and she is okay with you doing natural treatments even if that's with another vet. You are using all at your disposal to help handsome Chimo. I hope the herbs help him-- and I really hope the other vet has some good diagnostic ideas! When do you go see the other vet? Sending good thoughts Chimo's way!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Even when he DOES have his itchies he doesn't scratch non stop. He scratches a couple of times and then does a little "flea biting" (sans fleas) and then the biting causes the full on flare up hot spots. 

I would guess it to be allergy related simply because the dog that I would actually have to clean his ears once a YEAR (and even then the cotton balls came out as clean as they went in) has been getting the dark brown nasties before the scratching/flea biting and then the hot spots (which I actually warded off this time).


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Yep it sounds like an allergy. I am really thinking about getting Lakota tested, usually his allergy problem is only late summer till frost. But this year he is still having ear problems.

Val


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Having Indy tested was a great thing for me. I had the VARL test done. I did a search for VARL not very long ago and they confirmed that there is only one vet around that uses them, and we don't go to him anymore - I'm sure he would make me vaccinate first in order to see him. 

I've been thinking of trying to get my current vet to submit a sample for Max, but something else always seems to take a priority.


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