# What is "wolf sable"?



## jaggirl47

I was looking at Zappa's pedigree the other day because of his coloring and I recalled that his sire was a sable. In his pedigree, his sire's parents are both listed as black/tan and as you go another generation it says the coloring is a wolf sable. I was just wondering because I have been digging through his pedigree and trying to research alot of the dogs in his past.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Wolf Sable, as per the Pomeranian Club of America:



> Quote:A wolf sable has a light grey undercoat with a deeper shade of steel grey guard hairs ending in black tippings. There must not be cream or an orange cast to the base color. The points (eye rims, nose, lips and pads) are black.


Looks like this:










I don't think it's an actual color designation in GSDs??


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## GSDTrain

I *think* wolf sable just means that it is a grey/black sable, like wolf colors. I could be wrong though.


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## GSDTrain

Maybe this will help: http://www.horandvongrafrath.com/
http://www.total-german-shepherd.com/SableGermanShepherds.html


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## jaggirl47

Thanks Ashley. So, basically they are just sable GSD's then? That's kind of what I got from the website.
Lauri, I tried to post a copy of Zappa's AKC pedigree but had issues. It is actually listed on his official pedigree as wolf sable, so I guess it's recognized. Who knows with the AKC though.
Also, I thought you couldn't get a sable from anything but a sable. 

Zappa's grandsire:

Granada's Don Lobo
D799954 09-95
Black & Cream

Zappa's granddam:

Granada's Sandonna
DL527451/05 09-95
Black & Tan 

Zappa's sire:

Granada's Chico Lobo
DL588161/02 11-00
Sable 

I don't know what color sable to tell you he was, but I do remember that he was extremely large (around 110-115ish) and he was a darker sable.
BTW, they are not on OFFA or anything else. Zappa is 100% purebred BYB.


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## phgsd

Genetically yes one parent has to be a sable for the offspring to be sable. But some B&T dogs can be registered incorrectly. My first GSD's dam was a sable but looked very much like a black and tan, she was registered incorrectly by the AKC as a B&T even tho her SV papers said sable.
It could also be a mixup with the breeding but colors on AKC papers aren't *always* correct.


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## jaggirl47

So, I posted pics of Zappa on here to find out what color he really was because he doesn't look like a standard blk/tan that he is registered under. I wish you guys could see him in person because his coloring is SOOO much better in person. He is blk/red/tan/cream/silver. Here a few of the pics of him.










































Is it possible to be a mixture of a sable and a blk/tan for coloring? He doesn't look like a standard blk/tan or a standard sable color. I'm just wondering because I LOVE his coloring but I don't see the mixture of coloring alot.


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## jfisher

Actually, I'd say he's a sable!







Pretty boy!

-Jackie


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## jaggirl47

Even when his black is "blacker", he still has ALOT of color. It's just so hard to get good pics that really show all of his coloring. grrr Wouldn't it be great if we had a 1st annual GSD forum meetup? Then we could really see each other's dogs!


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## GSDTrain

going off previous pictures you posted of him before you shaved him i would say he is blk/tan.


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## GSDTrain

Here is an example of a black/tan that reminds me sort of like Zappa:


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## GSDTrain

Also, do you think you could post those pictures of him before he was shaved, again, under this post so it will give everyone a 'better' picture of him to look at for deciding his color.


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## jaggirl47

He does have alot more black with longer hair. I was trying to post pics that show more colors that don't show in the pics. I'm just trying to learn because he really does have ALOT of different colors and I don't know if it's normal or not to have so many. I will take some new pics tomorrow after his grooming appointment for his bath and brushout and post because he has his fur back (minus the winter coat). I will also see how patient he will be with me to get some good close ups of his saddle. I'm just curious because like I said, I don't know if it's normal for all of the colors. I don't think he is a sable, but I don't know if he would be considered a "standard" blk/tan or not. Also, the pics with the harness are pretty close to his normal summer coat. I'm just wondering because I really am trying to figure all of this stuff out and all of the color variations are kind of confusing.


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## jfisher

One of the easiest ways to tell a sable from a blk/tan is to check the hairs for banding. Banding = sable.

-Jackie


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## Catu

I would say Black and Tan. Most of the lighter hair you see seems to be undercoat to me.


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## jaggirl47

His hairs are a couple of different colors. In the black portion, they are cream and silver for 3/4 of the hair and the last 1/4 tip is black so in the majority of pics, all you can see is the black. His undercoat seems to be more of a black color. I was just digging through his fur with a flashlight lol. I just got a new camera with more megapixels so I will take new pics and closeups of the fur tomorrow and post them.


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## Barb E

Dante is one of those confusing sables









Here's his fur (I had to lighten these a bit in order for them to really show, there is no white in Dante's fur







)




























Here's some actual hairs. Kind of hard to see but there is black on both ends and tan in the middle (had to put something else on the paper to get my camera to auto focus!)


















Here he is as a puppy 









And this past December looking very much like a black and tan


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## valkyriegsd

Sables can have a pattern like the b/t saddleback and many b/t had 'sabling' or a 'bitch stripe' down their backs, making it hard to tell for sure in an adult, especially from pictures. However, it is easy to tell w/puppies. B/T puppies are mostly black when young, with the tan moving up the legs until they get their 'adult' pattern. Sables are mostly grey or gold when young, darkening as the guard hairs grow out. 

Here is a pic of a sable pup (and Merlin, an adult sable):









And here is a B/T pup:









See the difference? And notice the dark ring of hairs on the tail of the sable pup.


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## jaggirl47

Barb, that's exactly how Zappa's black is. I really don't believe he is a sable, but I guess the main question now is if a dog is out of a blk/tan and sable, can it have a mixture of BOTH of the parents coloring? Kinda like even though he's a blk/tan can he carry some of the color trita of the sable? The old pics of Zappa with the fur that Ashley is talking about was taken in Feb/March with his full winter coat and his fur isn't the healthiest there. It's much healthier now with his diet and suppliment regimen. So, I'm just wondering.


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## Brightelf

Just as an aside, sable over here in Germany is just called "grau." (grey)


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## Catu

Yes, we call them "grey" too here.


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## GSDTrain

Also, going off the coloring of his face, since it wasn't shaved down, it is blk/tan and I don't think a sable GSD is going to have a blk/tan head and sable body. 


Here is a picture of him before he was shaved down..definately blk/tan:


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## GSDTrain

Sable:










Black/Tan:


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## jaggirl47

No, I understand about the black and tan. But my question is can a black/tan have traits of a sable when a sable is one of his parents? Like I mentioned higher up, his "black" is 3/4 cream and the last 1/4 is black which laying shows only the black. I stated I didn't believe he was a sable, but I was wondering about the traits he can show. I am leaving in a few minutes to pick him up from the groomers and when I come back I will download pics to show what I am talking about.


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## jaggirl47

Ashley, I have seen pics of sable and blk/tns. I get the difference. That's not my question. The way his fur is isn't like a "normal" blk/tan. That's why I am asking if he can carry traits.


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## jaggirl47

OK, so here are some new pics of Zappa after his bath. Sorry some of them aren't too good. My 8 yo was taking some of them for me.


































Zappa's "black"









































































































This pic shows the only area of all black, the stripe across his shoulders









Zappa's left shoulder









Zappa's right shoulder









Zappa's tail

































Zappa's face









I tried doing the same pic as Barb and yeah, it didn't go over too well. It's a great big blur.


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## jaggirl47

Here is a pic of a GSD listed officially as a red sable.










Couldn't get a better pic but this one looks much more similar to Zappa than the other blk/tan.


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## valkyriegsd

It is VERY common for b/t dogs that are adults to have the 'sabling' or 'bitch strip' (tho dogs have it too) down the back and sometimes extending down the sides. This is not 'part sable' as the two are genetically distinct. A sable dog can carry the b/t gene, but it is not expressed. A b/t cannot carry sable (genetically) but can have the 'grizzled' hairs on the back. It is more common in the American lines, I think, where pigment is often more dilute. Here is a picture of a 4 y.o. b/t male.


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## jaggirl47

I think either way he is more of a red than a tan. The camera lightens up his coloring quite a bit. The pic that shows the red on his head right behind his ears is the color of his legs, but I don't know why the pics show it so light. He is definately not as pigmented of a red as Lies' Nikon, but he is more red than tan.


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## Barb E

I think he's black and tan with a bitch stripe.

They can't be both black and tan and sable (by the way, technically all black and tan are that - just different hues in the tan from cream to red).

Since I haven't had a black and tan - I'm not sure how the bitch stripe hairs are banded - if they have just two or if they have three like Dante.

Did you have him as a pup?


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## jaggirl47

I got him when he was 6 weeks. I know he's not a sable, but I just didn't know if he could show some of the traits or not. He was a blk/red until he was about 4 months and started showing alot of silver and cream. If I had a scanner I would scan and show the pics. The main reason I was wondering is that as I listed earlier, his "black" is 3/4 tan and 1/4 black, with alot of silver through it and the majority of standard blk/tans I see don't have the coloring like he does when you really look at him.


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## Barb E

I don't fully understand how the bitch stripe and other color changes work, I just know that they can't be sable and black and tan


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## JKlatsky

I would say he's a black and tan with bright points. That's where you're getting a lot of the silver and cream from on his belly and shoulders. From Linda Shaw's website...


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## jfisher

Do you happen to know for sure what colors his parents were/are?

-Jackie


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## jaggirl47

Yes. I saw both parents. The mother was a blk/tn (the kind everyone pictures with the tan and the perfect saddle) and the father was a sable. He was the first sable I ever saw and he scared the *beep* out of me (he was very agressive and not friendly). I really wish I had pictures of them but it was a time when I was young and dumb and thought that BYB were real breeders.


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## jaggirl47

Regardless of what color he really is, I think he is absolutely beautiful!







I always get one of two things said to me, that he is beautiful or that he is big and looks mean.


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## arycrest

Could what we're seeing be "bitch stripes"? I just checked Slider (will be 7 on Friday) who was neutered in April - his bitch stripe just started coming in about six weeks or so ago. The fur appears to be "sable" - gray tipped and black. 

His evil spawn, Bruiser (4-1/2), has been neutered for a about three years. He has a large bitch stripe, and again, it appears to be sable - gray tipped and black. Both father and son are black/tan blanket coats.

Mac (9 years old) is a red sable, was neutered about two or three years ago, and doesn't seem to have a bitch stripe, but it's hard to tell.


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## jaggirl47

I guess so. He has looked pretty much like this from about 4 months on. He lightened up alot more by the time he turned 1 and has been this way since. He tends to look darker when he is in his full winter wear, but his undercoat is more of a black than tan so I guess that's why. Either way, I think my boy is downright beautiful.


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## APBTLove

Bitch stripe. Dutch has one... 

But I've seen a sable with a saddle, 5h pic down is a light sable with a saddle.
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/colors/patterns.htm

Dutch, whom I consider cream and black, next to J, who is a darkish sable.

















And here you can see her stripe:

















Her coat is a little messed up because I shaved her not knowing the damage it could do, last year. Hasn't grown back fully.


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