# Need advice with my 10 month old GSD....



## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Vesper has grown into a beautiful girl, and has many wonderful qualities. She has great indoor manners, does relatively well with other dogs (depending on the breed and age), and has a very sweet disposition. However, we have been dealing with a few problems and I would like some advice. Just so you all know, I am not a trainer and have never claimed to be. Vesper is just a family dog, but we would love her to be well-behaved, obviously. Now, on to the problems...

I cannot get Vesper to pay attention to me when we walk. It's gotten to the point where I don't take her out at all. When she was young, I would take her out to various locations to walk. She always barks at people that she doesn't know, which turns out to be a lot of people when you're out in public. She also pulls on the leash. We have tried a head collar and leash training, but she just isn't interested at all. We just play fetch and other games in the yard now. At this time of year where we live, the temperature is often below zero degrees Fahrenheit, so sometimes it's difficult to walk. However, when it starts warming up, I would like to really master walking, because I love to walk and know that she would love it. I have debated trying the prong collar, but I'm not sure how effective it would be, because she can be somewhat aggressive toward people.

Her other problem is barking at people when they come to our home. My husband and I live in two separate homes during specific times of the work year. At one of our houses, she accepts people in much better than at the other. I have no idea why. We have been working with her by putting her in a down-stay when she starts to bark at our guests. Eventually, when she has calmed down, she is released. If she starts barking again, she is put back into the down-stay until she can relax. This works relatively well, but there is always an initial period where she barks a lot. (We worked on the quiet command for a very long time, and she didn't seem to grasp it well at all.) Vesper is extremely intelligent, but she is also very stubborn. We did our best to socialize her when she was young, but she still seems afraid of people. She is fine with other animals and loud noises of any sort, but PEOPLE just make her nuts. 

I am looking for constructive advice... Thanks so much.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Bump


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

we're in a similar situation with our Ziggy. i've switched to a prong collar for our walks and had to keep my hand close to the collar for a quick correction. sometimes i'll make him sit and wait for them to pass. practice makes perfect so the more times you show the preferred behavior the better. Z seems to do better during group training than on our own but thats because he's in training mode. as for home barks, we do alot of the same. sometimes it takes 5 mins for me to open the door.


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## Slane (Jan 3, 2016)

I wonder if when you walk her and you see people you anticapate her to bark and maybe you may tense up or get nervous and that translate through the leash and she thinks she needs to be on alert. 
My male wgsd is great with people only barks while in his territory. However, if he see's a dog walking it's completely different. I found that I was seeing the dogs first and becoming nervous and thus causing the unwanted behavior. So now when I see someone with a dog I'm neutral and keep him focused on the walk. I just say "leave it" and keep walking.
I hope that helps I understand how frustrating that can be.


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## Spectrum (Jan 14, 2016)

Is your dog food motivated? I've trained other dogs before to look at me solely during walks, rewarding them with treats. You can redirect that curiosity to you, if she is.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Work under threshold. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say that. WDJ has articles on this.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Is this a "Dog Park" I thought my dog was friendly?? Type of dog??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

PM sent


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Your dog is just a puppy! The worst thing you can do with a problem is avoid and NOT fix, so backing up your pups life to have them only live in the yard isn't a good long term solution. You need to go out in the world but figure out how best to do it.

How did the dog classes go? What does your instructor recommend?

How well was all the socialization you did during the first year? What worked well and what didn't?

Have you progressed with all the engagement training? Because that's a huge help to get the attention back to yourself and away from 'whatever'.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ssive-leash-i-cant-control-reactive-dogs.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ialize-i-want-photos-videos-puppies-dogs.html


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Get her into obedience classes with other dogs.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

She has never been in obedience classes. I work with her as often as I possibly can which is every single day. However, where we live there aren't classes and if there are the people teaching them aren't much more qualified than I am. We live in a very rural community. Even when out in public we don't encounter many people, so they are novel to her. She used to bark at people when she would see them outside from when she was in the car, but we have worked on that a lot. Workikg under threshold is incredibly difficult, because I never know when a trigger is going to come up. I can definitely work on being less tense when I fear that something will trigger her. I'm not trying to take a backseat with her training at all. It is just not feasible to walk when it's minus 11 degrees Fahrenheit with wind and snow. We have to be creative with exercise.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Lexiz - I lived in SW Wyoming for 9 years. I walked my dogs, worked my dogs at 20 below. It is feasible. I wasn't pretty. It involved silk long johns, fleece pants, wind pants, down parkas and in daylight with wind ski goggles. Pretty scarey but I walked my dogs and worked my dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I'm hearing a lot of excuses: I live in the country, if there are instructors, they are not much more advanced than me, hard to walk at -11 degrees F. 

The pup is 10 months old and it hasn't been -11 degrees for the last 8 months, sorry. Even someone a little more advanced than you can help you see things you cannot see from your vantage point. And, there will be other dogs and people in the class, which your pup NEEDS to learn to exist around. Get in the car and drive there. 

Do you know what the single most common reason dogs are unnecessarily put down in my country? Lack of training. People get a puppy, fail to train it, dump it at a shelter that is overrun with dogs, and the dog is dead before the people drive out of the parking lot. And the people go on to get another dog, a better dog, because that one was bad, or stupid, or stubborn, or dominant, or aggressive. 

What your dog is suffering from is a disease. If your dog had an ear infection, you would take the dog to the vet and have her treated, right? If she wasn't breathing right, you take her to the vet. Well, your dog is currently terminal. You need to get her to a trainer and work for a cure. Because if YOU do not learn how to discipline yourself, your dog's future is bleak. Training a dog is disciplining yourself to communicate effectively with the dog: to give commands once, to follow through every time, to provide feedback with proper timing. We are the ones learning. If we are consistent, the dog will pick it up. 

If you had this dog in classes in May, June, July, August and September, maybe you could be sitting in front of the fire now, taking a break. Unfortunately, now that the dog is big and strong, and probably has gotten her way by using some pretty undesirable behaviors, you have to do some of this when the weather isn't too pleasant. Sorry about that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> Lexiz - I lived in SW Wyoming for 9 years. I walked my dogs, worked my dogs at 20 below. It is feasible. I wasn't pretty. It involved silk long johns, fleece pants, wind pants, down parkas and in daylight with wind ski goggles. Pretty scarey but I walked my dogs and worked my dogs.


 20 below wow! Rocky and I are slackers, 18 to low 20's so far.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Sigh. This is why I hate this website. I haven't slacked with her at all. Not even a little. She is well taken care of and is in no danger of being abandoned at a shelter. I'm glad you are all so perfect and have never struggled with your dogs at all. Vesper is a very sweet girl and I love her very much. I have worked my whole life around her schedule. I was just trying to explain my specific situation. Thanks for the "help." For those of you who didn't immediately judge and instead offered true advice, I am thankful.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

And when I said we hadn't been waking lately, that's literally been for a few days. So it's not like I have spent months copping her up.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I agree, I wouldn't walk that far in freezing weather, but getting angry at people trying to help you isn't useful. People on this forum drive long distances for the training they want, sometimes hours each way


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No. Sorry, but when people suggested classes, which is what _this_ dog needs, you immediately come back with excuses. The dog is now 10 months old, you should have had it in classes six months ago. It is ok to start now. It is just harder because she already has some bad habits that now need to be improved -- the barking at people thing. If she started doing that in classes, you would have gotten suggestions on how to deal with that immediately. 

Letting a dog wallow in behaviors you don't like gets them set. It is far easier to teach a dog what you want them to do, than to fix something you don't like. And getting them out there and around other people and dogs -- not running and playing, or walking away from you, but dogs working alongside you, with their people, so the dog learns he/she should just ignore the other dogs, you will keep him/her safe. 

We all think we can just teach the pup at home, and many of us can. The thing is, you cannot manufacture strange people and strange dogs at home. And, if you are having issues, it sometimes takes another set of eyes to tell you what you are or aren't doing that is affecting your dog's behavior.

10 months is not too late to work with a dog in classes and get them over this behavior. If you wait much longer, chances are you are going to have to work in a vacuum first, and then work your way closer to people and dogs. If you wait much longer, if you wait until the weather gets nice enough, it's going to be more difficult. 

I'm not beating around the bush and flowering everything up because I think there is an urgency to get this dog into a better place before it becomes a different kind of story.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

lexiz,there's a really good site called careforreactivedogs.com that explains counter conditioning very well that many people have found helpful.
I understand about not getting out and about much in the winter,either do we.I bundle up and excersice them but we don't get into town as often.I drive an hour to take classes but not this time of year when half of them get cancelled due to weather anyway
Samson is reactive towards strangers too,he growled and glared,no barking.Classes and counter conditioning helped immensely.He still isn't a fan of strangers but the growling and glaring have been replaced by totally ignoring people.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm looking into group classes now! Hopefully we can find something good!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well as it happens ... as I often say there is always that guy. I did "puppy" classes with my Am Band Dawg (not Pet Co) when he was a puppy, it was chaotic, I learned nothing and at that time he was fine with other dogs.

A few months later?? Not so much! I had him evaluated by a "Pro" to figure out what his other dog problem was?? He was pronounced a "Dominate Male" dog. (bully breed ... so yeah.)

For "me" Ok fine, no "Dog Parks" no I thought my "Dog was friendly people" mine clearly was not and so he was taught "to ignore other dogs." No big deal.

Worked out fine, and once when a little dog slipped by me and got in his face, "Bark ,Bark, Barkin Gunther's face! He held station and looked to me as to how best to handle this "situition"??? 

And dog number two "Struddell" my Boxer (on his flank) looked to Gunther to see what to do "situation!" Iin this?? I got the miscreant out of a potentially deadly encounter! That was the "luckiest dog in Dayton" that year. 

Just saying, not everyone "needs" "Puppy" classes to have a well-trained dog.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Yes, that's true. I'm just not sure how to handle this situation. I didn't think we needed classes but then was told that we do from a few people on this thread. I just want to do what's best for Vessie.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Classes are a good way to learn how to handle your dog around other people and dogs in a controlled environment.The trainer can actually see how you interact together show you the good and the bad and how to improve and tweak your skills and timing.Hands-on help and support is invaluable.


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

I am actually nervous about mentioning something that I have done, for obvious reasons, I don't want to feel like I have no business helping a training question.

Lexiz, I live out in the middle of no where, it is a 65 mile drive one way to go to my breeders classes, heck they are offered to me and Sofie for free. It's still difficult because of unpredictable weather conditions. I use standard leash and collar, so I have no advice on a prong. a friend of mine swears by the walky dog harness, because it turns your dog back to you when they go ahead of you. Hang on, I know you said nothing about pulling. And the harness tidbit is from someone who has a husky, very large 75 pounder, they pull, they can get crazy.....So anyways the harness may be a better option to teach focus. I am sure I read it somewhere, and someone is famous for teaching this, but, start with a heel, if he pulls out in front of you to react to another person, using standard leash, stop and turn around, make Vessie sit and stay, this will already require your dog to focus on you. My husky/gsd is not treat motivated, if Vessie is treat, I use praise. be observant of your surroundings, turn back to where you were going and continue. If anything distracts place in a sit and stay focus on you. This sounds foolish, sounds like the stop and go is not anything, but you are teaching that continued walking requires your dog to focus only on you and what you want her to do. I taught Miya watch, this is much more productive for her than to bark her head off at any stranger she meets, and I am currently teaching Sofie watch me. Repetition for focus training, will give results, but you got to be dedicated. I look like the Michelin man when I am working with my girls. You need a plan and stick with it. This can be used for people, other dogs, and critters. 

Inside, this focus training can be used when people are present as well. Although I think much harder, since quite often I am by myself when people are over, and Miya is in protection mode, and barking seems to be her way of saying no one allowed here when dad is gone. With that said, place command is essential, teach Vessie a place she has to be in when company is over, and a lay and stay or sit and stay. If she moves or starts to bark, train enough. Enough is the command I use when the crazies happen in the house and I am done with it. Again all of this has to be consistent. Be firm, with voice and with always doing the same thing. You can not allow her to do something some of the time, it has to be all of the time, or your dog will get confused. 

Every opportunity is a training opportunity. You can do this at home, but your dog can't know you are stressed, unsure or not serious. They will take advantage of you. All of this can be done at home, outside around your house. Days that are decent take her some place and work on this. again, it may not seem a professional way of training, but it works. If you focus first, your dog will too. I hope some of this helps. I certainly understand limitations of living out in the middle of no where. I will agree with another poster, if you are not confident in yourself a class will help you, and someone else can view where you may be "failing" for a lack of a better word. Renee


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Yes, that's true. I'm just not sure how to handle this situation. I didn't think we needed classes but then was told that we do from a few people on this thread. I just want to do what's best for Vessie.


 Well thank you for explaining exactly why when I had "serious freaking issue's" with my first GSD I did not got to an open forum. I was not looking for a debate! I was looking for "answers and solid information" I already understood what did not work.

Had I come here and been told "find a trainer" yeah ... that would not have gone over well! 

But I do believe I sent you a "PM" with sources for finding as I phrase it "competent qualified help??"

If not ... here you go:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7378442-post9.html

If you have a dog with no real serious issues than you can find any trainer that can help you and to display my "impartially" here you go:

https://positively.com/

But if you have a dog with "issues" .. good luck with that. 

I had more that a decade of training real dogs "Bullies" and none of that meant "crap" when I ran into "issues" with OS WL GSD! None of which I had ever seen before?? I found enough to solve the "people issue" but never got the opportunity to solve the "Rank Drive" fueled fights. 

I've learned even more since then and I use "my" filter to point people in the right direction, in "my"opinion." 

So ... that being said this is what "I" do:

Spend some time here:

What Would Jeff Do? Q&A
https://www.youtube.com/user/SolidK9Training/playlists
Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

Los Angeles Dog Trainer - Dog Aggression Training - Dog Behavior Modification
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGoodDogTraining/playlists

Spend some "hours" there and you will be better able to decide what you can do. If you have questions you can find them on FB or maybe near you??

Dates and Tickets ? Jeff Gellman's RV Dog Training Tour

Jeff Gellman's RV Dog Training Tour

And this what "my" guy says to people like you struggling with their dogs issues:

https://youtu.be/A1NmBsLM9z0

So ... I'm in the "trenches" for them as it were and I hear "members" tell me "thank you for being different!" 

I just point out "solid information" for people based on my "experience" with my "one dog!" Because "prior" to him ... I was pretty good. 

I don't tell people what to do. I just point them in the right direction (from my point of view) and people are free to do as they see fit.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thank you for your encouraging advice! I have been working on her focus by making her stay then only releasing her when she trains her eyes on me. That has helped a lot when people come over! She does pull, and I have been avoiding the prong, mostly because I am uncomfortable with it. I can be a naturally worried person and I'm sure she is probably picking up on that. Group classes might help us both gain some confidence. I always worry that I won't be able to effectively control her when we are out and about. This problem probably lies more with me than with her, honestly. I want to try the harness before we go to the prong.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Chip, thank you so much!!! I will check out those links!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Thank you for your encouraging advice!


Well ... I try. Forgive me for breaking this up but ... some observations, things I've learned first hand, from hearing from others and personally observations. 



lexiz said:


> I have been working on her focus by making her stay then only releasing her when she trains her eyes on me. That has helped a lot when people come over!


 I call that the "Cesar Milan" approach
for company coming over. You "negoitate" with the dog and get his approval before people can enter the home. I did that for years with my "other" dogs and it worked out well, more or less OK. Company did have my crazy "Boxer" to deal with, she luv'd everyone and wanted to my sure they knew it! :crazy: 

But ... when I got my GSD with his "people issues" that approach was no longer a viable option! I needed "control" or either no one came in or someone was getting hurt! 

Not on my watch! I did not know it at the time but I trained "The Place Command" Rocky goes to "Place" and he does not move and I allowed no one to interact with him worked out fine. 

If your dog is other wise good with people, then you don't need to be as "anal" as I was but nonetheless you should train "The Place Command" and do "Sit on the Dog." Details are here:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums



lexiz said:


> She does pull, and I have been avoiding the prong, mostly because I am uncomfortable with it.


 It's not my thing to "convince" folks to use a "tool" they are uncomfortable using. I will point out that if you go to the sites I linked you can find out how to use a "Prong Collar" properly. So you can learn there how to use one and if you are still unsure you can find a trainer for a more hands on kinda thing.

But having said that, those guys have found that even with said "hands on training" a lot of their "clients" still struggled with "corrections??" Depending on how it's used a "Prong Collar" can "take drive out of a dog or it can put drive into a dog??" 

So they looked for a hands-free form of "correction" and found the "Pet Convincer" last two links:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7400865-post6.html

And here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo



lexiz said:


> I can be a naturally worried person and I'm sure she is probably picking up on that. Group classes might help us both gain some confidence. I always worry that I won't be able to effectively control her when we are out and about. This problem probably lies more with me than with her, honestly. I want to try the harness before we go to the prong.


 I use to just say "flat out harness are crap" but you can reference the owners of the dog with the halti and judge for yourself. 

I prefer a Slip Lead Leash myself but it seems to be a pretty hard sell nonetheless I have tried. :

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum: Boxer Breed Dog Forums

In the "Pet Convincer" clip I was surprised that, Sean kept that crap on the dogs nose?? I'd have ditched it myself, I have rounded up strays and fashioned a SLL from a jump rope in the past and walked that particular "door dasher" right back to his owner without issue. 

When you understand how to "properly" walk a dog, the "tool" really doesn't matter. This is a "Prong" here the same thing can be done with a SLL but good luck finding it ... although I guess I did. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM

Oh yeah one more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB8dhKNichw

Ok well ... this to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzVrysP3tQY

None of this ^^^ "information" precludes you taking your dog to a training class if you chose but now you should have a better understanding of what you need to do and what it should look like.

And of course, my standard "Dog Park" warning can be found here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And , there is "my" observation of sigh ... *some* "Dog Park" dogs and their owners but ... gotta stop at some point. Still working on the "brevity" thing seems to escape me frequently??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Yeah ...you'd think that would be all of them!


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

After reading through most of the comments here, makes me NOT want to post any of my problems here for " help ". A lot of ridicule going on. I'm from Texas. Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather. I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time. I thought this forum was here to help one another and encourage people. It's not like she didn't make an effort. After all she took the time out to join the forum and seek help from people who know. Ridiculing people is not the answer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Thank you for your encouraging advice! I have been working on her focus by making her stay then only releasing her when she trains her eyes on me. That has helped a lot when people come over! She does pull, and I have been avoiding the prong, mostly because I am uncomfortable with it. I can be a naturally worried person and I'm sure she is probably picking up on that. Group classes might help us both gain some confidence. I always worry that I won't be able to effectively control her when we are out and about. This problem probably lies more with me than with her, honestly. I want to try the harness before we go to the prong.


Hi - just wanted to give my experience with the prong. Last thing I thought I would need and I never needed it with my other GSD's but I did with this one.

My dog pulled - pulled like a freight train and I was getting deep bruises and abrasions from the leash handle on my hand. Every trainer here suggested the prong. So I ordered one and thought "the second I put this on and she shows distress - it's going in the garbage". 

I put it on, she was fine, I let her run in the yard with it on, she was fine (ignored it). I put the leash on and walked her around the yard with it on loose - she tried to pull once and stopped. We stood there for a few seconds and walked some more - she was right beside me with slack in the leash!!! We went out the front gate - she pulled once, we stopped (I gave her a few seconds to think about it) - we walked - she didn't pull.......

She pulls just a little now (all these months later) but she never pulls hard enough to hurt because she learned not to.......

I do not have it fitted properly to give corrections but she doesn't need that anymore. It's pretty much there so I can control her in an emergency. I'm 61 and don't trust my strength to hold her back myself but I do with the prong on and this confidence projects down the leash...... It really is like "power steering".


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sorry Bo-Bo post please disregard.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

IronhorseRomo said:


> After reading through most of the comments here, makes me NOT want to post any of my problems here for " help ". A lot of ridicule going on. I'm from Texas. Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather. I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time. I thought this forum was here to help one another and encourage people. It's not like she didn't make an effort. After all she took the time out to join the forum and seek help from people who know. Ridiculing people is not the answer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're correct,some of the replies were harsh.I think some of members here are on edge because of so many posts lately of dogs being put down for out of control behavior and biting.Behavior that could have been avoided or at the very least effectively managed.The intent IMO was for the OP to stop doing what isn't working and get some hands-on help,step up and help your dog now.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

lexiz,I agree with Stonevintage regarding the prong collar.It's designed to put even pressure around their neck and it only takes a light touch to communicate with the dog.A light flick of the wrist for corrections.I'm convinced it's more humane than a flat or choke collar.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> You're correct,some of the replies were harsh.I think some of members here are on edge because of so many posts lately of dogs being put down for out of control behavior and biting.Behavior that could have been avoided or at the very least effectively managed.The intent IMO was for the OP to stop doing what isn't working and get some hands-on help,step up and help your dog now.


I think that plays a big part too. Way to many posts lately about dogs getting put to sleep right in that young dog age group because they got to be big pups and weren't trained. 

There was something that helped me put things in perspective when I got my last pup. Because of my age, I if I get severely ill or disabled, I may need to rehome my dog. Because of this - I want her to be friendly to people and have immaculate house manners. If I can maintain this and do have to rehome her some day - she has a much better chance at finding a loving good home. 

If I just thought "well, I love her and can accept these problems she has" I would only be thinking about myself and the here and now and not what's in the dogs best interest to learn if something should happen and I cannot keep her. It's an asset for the life of the dog.....


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stone,derailing the thread for a moment!Samson is my last puppy for that same reasonI don't want to leave my kids with a pack of half grown dogs.My dogs are 11,3,and 22 mths.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

IronhorseRomo said:


> After reading through most of the comments here, makes me NOT want to post any of my problems here for " help ". A lot of ridicule going on. I'm from Texas. Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather. I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time. I thought this forum was here to help one another and encourage people. It's not like she didn't make an effort. After all she took the time out to join the forum and seek help from people who know. Ridiculing people is not the answer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because we love German Shepherds and we want to help. I never ridicule or criticize, but it might seem critical to someone who is sensitive. It takes a strong personality to own a German Shpeherd, which comes out in our messages. I got scared off when I first found this forum by harsh comments, but the more I read, I see how much people here know and are willing to give out free help. I'm in awe of them. 

Please read old threads on dogs out of control. There are too many new threads here from people with older puppies that have developed bad habits that could cause the owners to give up their dogs. I've been on the other end, fostering GSDs that were horribly untrained and were in danger of being put down because of poor owner decisions when they were puppies. The earlier problems are trained out of a dog, the better the outcome.

An obedience class is 25% for the dog to be socialized and learn to work with distractions and 75% for the owners to be "trained."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

IronhorseRomo said:


> After reading through most of the comments here, makes me NOT want to post any of my problems here for " help ". A lot of ridicule going on. I'm from Texas. *Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather.* *I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time.* I thought this forum was here to help one another and encourage people. It's not like she didn't make an effort. After all she took the time out to join the forum and seek help from people who know. Ridiculing people is not the answer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If I were to post: 

*"My Girl is sick, need some advice.*

My girl has been feeling down for about a week. I noticed yesterday that she was dripping some foul smelling yuck. I thought maybe she was in heat, but she came out of heat about a month ago. I would take her to the vet, but I owe them some money, and I don't know if they will even see her."

And one person writes,
"You need to take your dog to the vet."

Another person posts, 
"Your bitch might die, get her to the vet right away."

And another person posts, 
"Why are you still reading this, get your bitch to the vet now!"

Another person then posts, 
"Well, I really don't like vets either, have you tried putting some apple cider vinegar in her water, that usually helps mine after their heat cycles."

And another person then posts,
"Why isn't she spayed? If she was spayed, she wouldn't be having this problem right now." 

Ok, now, IronhorseRomo, 

Would you post, 
 
"After reading through most of the comments here, makes me NOT want to post any of my problems here for " help ". A lot of ridicule going on. I'm from Texas. Ain't no way I'm making a bill at the vet's. I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for veterinary appointments. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time. I thought this forum was here to help one another and encourage people. It's not like she didn't make an effort. After all she took the time out to join the forum and seek help from people who know. Ridiculing people is not the answer"


The answer is the same, the scenario is the same. Pyro can kill your bitch. Young untrained GSDs are put down ALL THE TIME for lack of training, management and leadership. More canines are put down for the latter than the former. 

This bitch doesn't need an internet forum, she needs her owner to take her to classes so that her owner can learn how to manage/train her in all environments. 

"*Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather.* *I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time."

*Frankly, I wouldn't sell you a dog or give you a dog. Some people have no business owning a dog. If you are too busy and too broke to provide what a dog needs, than you have no business owning a dog. Basic veterinary care, and basic training classes are not luxuries. And if you do not have the time to do these things, than your are too busy to own a dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

IronhorseRomo said:


> After reading through most of the comments here, makes me NOT want to post any of my problems here for " help ". A lot of ridicule going on. I'm from Texas. Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather. I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time. I thought this forum was here to help one another and encourage people. It's not like she didn't make an effort. After all she took the time out to join the forum and seek help from people who know. Ridiculing people is not the answer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I understand your view Selzer but I want to try to come somewhere between the two posts here because these are so polar opposites.

OK Texas - you're first...... I lived in South Texas - My dogs when we moved down to the ranch had to integrate with 6 existing ranch dogs. They had to fight their way up the pack structure and that is what happened. The "pack" was outside and not allowed in the house. They were lousy with fleas and ticks the size of lima beans. All we had was the highly toxic "sheep dip" so we only used it in the worst months. 

I noticed a difference there how regular dogs were treated as opposed to a well trained hunting dog string. Clean kennels, good energy food etc... because THESE dogs were considered a bragging right investment and earned their keep by providing hunting entertainment. The most important thing I noticed - even though there were no training facilities within miles - these dogs had the best training - provided by locals and friends helping each other out..... priorities - I guess.

If you can't afford training classes and do not have the time - sorry, you're not off the hook at all in teaching your dog what it needs to learn..... There are excellent training videos on the internet. If you don't have a computer - a friend will... all libraries have public computers you can go in and sit down and watch a 20 minute training tape a couple of times a week. You get what you give - IMO the GSD is not a breed that you get knowing you won't have the time or money or desire to train, simply not acceptable and it is all on you....

On the other end of the spectrum.... some can't believe that training and the best of health care sometimes can't and won't ever be provided (as you know that to be).... by some miracle - these dogs do grow up well trained and healthy even in the poorest of households. What makes the difference is the owner's metal - not the money.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand your view Selzer but I want to try to come somewhere between the two posts here because these are so polar opposites.
> 
> OK Texas - you're first...... I lived in South Texas - My dogs when we moved down to the ranch had to integrate with 6 existing ranch dogs. They had to fight their way up the pack structure and that is what happened. The "pack" was outside and not allowed in the house. They were lousy with fleas and ticks the size of lima beans. All we had was the highly toxic "sheep dip" so we only used it in the worst months.
> 
> ...


Yes, but I'm sorry, all the training videos and books can't provide the second set of eyes a GOOD trainer can provide. 

It is no accident that at a time when all criticism is criticized most harshly, that individuals cannot seem to fathom the possibility that the problems they are experienced are going on on the near side of the lead rather than the far side.

Who suffers? The pets we claim to love so much. Ah well. 

And books and vids cannot produce the people and the dogs that fill up that class setting. READ the books, WATCH the vids, but the less money you have the more important it is to FIND the money for classes. Because they are a **** of a lot cheaper than individualized training for behavior modification or law suits because your dog bit someone. 

Yes, yes, we CAN train our dogs ourselves. I can. No problem. If I kick myself in the butt and get out there and train. But then, I've been through classes so many times that the dogs that haven't even been there pretty much know what I am telling them to do. And I have known most of them since they were born, and they all see me as the provider of all the goodies, which makes things a little easier -- I don't have a lot of the issues that newbie-owners have just because I have some experience. For someone brand new to the breed, to working dogs, or for someone having issues with their dog, classes are pretty much a must.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Yes, but I'm sorry, all the training videos and books can't provide the second set of eyes a GOOD trainer can provide.
> 
> It is no accident that at a time when all criticism is criticized most harshly, that individuals cannot seem to fathom the possibility that the problems they are experienced are going on on the near side of the lead rather than the far side.
> 
> ...



And I'm just speaking from what I have experienced. In parts of Texas and now in Idaho where I live..... if a dog can't mind - training classes are rarely used.... a bullet out in the woods is used and they get another dog.... that's reality.


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

Stone, I agree, that is the harsh reality in Texas. If the dog is not working a ranch, by the way they don't use gsd's here for that, or they are not bird or hog dogs, then the dog is just a piece of property. My vet looked at me like I was nuts at how much I paid for my gsd. People don't do that here. I trained my first dog, gsd/husky, and for giggles I took her to Petsmart, thinking she needed a puppy class because I thought I didn't train right. They use the clicker method. My girl was the youngest of the group, I asked what they were working on, by the time I was done talking to their "trainer' Miya was too advanced to be in any of their training groups. So finding a general trainer in my area is a)65 miles one way, b)not a good enough place to take my dog, c)I am glad my breeder offers me a lifetime of training help if I ever need it. Unfortunately, most people who have a gsd in this area didn't go to a great breeder. They have no support from their breeder, and are clueless on where to find a trainer other than Petco or Petsmart. I have recommended Petsmart, simply because it is a starting point for most people. I agree, if you don't have time to work with your dog, even by watching you tube video, or reading the vast amount of info Chip gave, then you really shouldn't have a dog, let alone a gsd, but to be fair, no one should chastised someone for this, since they have the dog now, the deed is done, it's best to help, give ideas, and hope that the help that they get they use, so that the dog doen't end up in a high kill shelter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No one chastised the OP for getting a dog.


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

Selzer, my response was not about the OP, my post never mentions the OP. This was in response to Ironhorse poster from Texas.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> No one chastised the OP for getting a dog.



Might as well. It's one thing to be realistic and another to be harsh. She asked for "constructive criticism" not to be talked down to like a child. I'm not a sensitive person by any means and I thought a lot of the comments were harsh and uncalled for. 


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

As for me and my dogs ( female Blue heeler 7yrs and a male GSD 9 months ), I have no problem taking the time to train my dogs as much as I can. I live in the city. All I expect out of my dogs are basic obedience. Sit, stay, come when I call, and walking on a leash. I refuse to pay for training classes when I can do the homework and do it myself. If my dog gets sick and needs a vet, no problem. I consider my dogs family! So far as a result of my efforts, my dogs are happy and healthy animals. I also realize that dogs require effort and hard work. 
There a lot of people who don't realize that and result in being abandoned and put down. I understand your feelings on the matter. I do. But that doesn't justify ridiculing someone looking for help. You could be the result of discouraging someone and abandoning their dog because you decided being hard was better than being helpful. Talking down to someone never helps the situation. It only makes it worse. You can be honest and nice at the same time. 


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dog training classes?? Yeah ... well, I as tend to say "there" as always that guy!" 

The only one of my dogs that went to a puppy training class was the only one that turned out to be "dog aggressive!" Did that happen "because" of the training class?? Nope, not likely?? I don't remember any particularly aggressive behaviour on his part during "puppy play period??"

What I do remember at "puppy classes" is total chaos, I learning nothing and a lot of people and dogs running around with very little in the way of structure and control! 

I did not go to"Petco or Petsmart" but I might as well have. "Apparently" I attended a "private" version of the same thing. It was a waste of time and money and I and my dog learned nothing!

Insisting that someone "needs" to go to "training classes" or they are "failing" their dog "is" bashing and it's untrue and unnecessary in my view. 

People that get setup, by thinking that "well if I go to a doggy training class, my problems will be solved" are doomed to failure, if they have the wrong dog!

The only dog "I" ever took to "classes" was the only dog I had, that had "Dog on Dog" issues." and I did not find that out there. 

I took it on myself to find a "competent qualified trainer" to help me understand what the "deal was??"

He did and as I've said in the past, my Am Band Dog was pronounced a "Dominate Aggressive Male" yes ... big surprise. 

And my solution was no "Dog Parks" no "I thought my dog was friendly people." My dogs were taught to ignore other dogs and that is what they do, works out just fine.

My "Boxer" and my problem child OS WL GSD "never" came in contact with a dog they did know in their lives growing up. And on the rare occasion they did ... it was "no big deal. The aforementioned "GSD" (my problem child) is one of the best-behaved dogs at the vets office, I have ever seen and he has "never" played with an unknown dog in his life." So "no" people "don't" need training classes, in my view if they can find "solid information on the internet" which is what I provide, "some" "can" do it themselves. 

If someone "wants" to "tell" people what they "*should look for*" in a training classes they won't get grief from me, but ... that's not my thing.  

Telling people to "go to classes" is like telling people to "find a trainer" if you know next nothing ... they all look pretty much the same???

But hey that's me so what do "some" experts see?? 

The Unvarnished Truth: Reality and Modern Dog Training | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training

wrong end of the leash

Par for the course if you know next to nothing going for "most" dog owners.


"I" did better on my own and "I" like my dogs, are not that special. 

Just saying go to classes is like saying "Dog Parks" are "ok?? Yes apparently "some" are "some" not so much. 


And the walking the dog in 11 below conditions?? I did not consider that as an insult myself?? Heck, I'm impressed and I see it as a challenge! The best "Rocky" and I could do was, 13 degrees it just doesn't get much colder than that here.  















.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Dog training classes?? Yeah ... well, I as tend to say "there" as always that guy!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree completely. As far as going outside and walking or playing in cold weather, if it's to cold for me, it's to cold for them. 30 degrees is about as cold as it gets here. I'm a huge sissy when it comes to the cold. 3/4 of the year is above 80 degrees here in central Texas lol. 


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

Also, I'd like to apologize for derailing the thread. 


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## Cariad (Jan 2, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Dog training classes?? Yeah ... well, I as tend to say "there" as always that guy!"
> 
> The only one of my dogs that went to a puppy training class was the only one that turned out to be "dog aggressive!" Did that happen "because" of the training class?? Nope, not likely?? I don't remember any particularly aggressive behaviour on his part during "puppy play period??"
> 
> ...


You had ONE bad experience with ONE bad class at ONE training location. That is by no means any sort of cross section of dog trainers nationwide. I think it is far safer when giving advice on how to deal with issues like leash reactivity, barking at people, pulling etc to suggest that person find a professional in their area. As we cant see the person training the dogs themselves and only have a brief paragraph to base suggestions on, telling the person to find a trainer is the first step. Just as the first step to any medical problem would be to take a dog to a vet. Best to play the law of averages and assume the person can and will benefit from a second set of eyes watching their interaction with their dog in real time. 

I agree I would not walk my dog in 11 below weather, but i do take my dogs to puppy classes not because I need help teaching them basic commands but because I want them to learn to focus on me in a stimulating environment, my husband and I cant become a class full of dogs and people. If that were for some reason not available to me because of distance then a DVD or online course would be my next best bet. 

To the OP regarding prong collars. I use them, however you need to know how to fit them and use them correctly. leerburg (I cant post links yet if someone could post it for me please  ) has an article on how to fit prong collars. They should only be on during the training period and I don't use them to teach new behaviors as there will always be mistakes at first when learning something new. 

You said you were looking at classes did you find anything? Where are you located perhaps someone might have a suggestion for?


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Hello, everyone! Thanks for your support and for many of you more accurately putting into words what I was trying to say with my first. Before I give you an update on Ves, I wound like to say a few things. First, I love Vesper will all of my heart. I joined this forum months before I adopted her, and knew that it wasn't going to be sunshine and rainbows all the time. I knew training would be hard. She has been much easier than I expected, honestly, so she isn't in any danger of being put down or given away. Even if she was a terrible dog, I would love her and still seek help for her. Many people got the wrong impression of me right off the bat. Since posting my thread, I have researched and called many dog training facilities in our area. I live in Idaho where they consider Petco and Petsmart the pinnacle of dog training. I disagree there. Hopefully I can find something better. In the meantime, I watched tons of videos about the prong collar and went out and bought one. We spent hours yesterday associating the prong collar with treats and letting her adjust to wearing it, loosely at first then fitted. So far, she is already responding well with it on. Hopefully this will help with our leash problems tremendously. We are working on "heel," so that the prong can be phased out eventually. Now comes the reactivity... I want to walk her but try my best to keep her under threshold. Hopefully the prong will help keep her focused on me. As soon as I put it on and we started walking just around the house, I felt the power shift. She was watching me and waiting for me to lead her. That helped me feel so much more confident! She walked where I walked and stopped where I stopped. Now the prong collar is her new favorite thing. Thanks all. Sorry about typos, I write these responses quickly off of my phone.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

lexiz said:


> Hello, everyone! Thanks for your support and for many of you more accurately putting into words what I was trying to say with my first. Before I give you an update on Ves, I wound like to say a few things. First, I love Vesper will all of my heart. I joined this forum months before I adopted her, and knew that it wasn't going to be sunshine and rainbows all the time. I knew training would be hard. She has been much easier than I expected, honestly, so she isn't in any danger of being put down or given away. Even if she was a terrible dog, I would love her and still seek help for her. Many people got the wrong impression of me right off the bat. Since posting my thread, I have researched and called many dog training facilities in our area. I live in Idaho where they consider Petco and Petsmart the pinnacle of dog training. I disagree there. Hopefully I can find something better. In the meantime, I watched tons of videos about the prong collar and went out and bought one. We spent hours yesterday associating the prong collar with treats and letting her adjust to wearing it, loosely at first then fitted. So far, she is already responding well with it on. Hopefully this will help with our leash problems tremendously. We are working on "heel," so that the prong can be phased out eventually. Now comes the reactivity... I want to walk her but try my best to keep her under threshold. Hopefully the prong will help keep her focused on me. As soon as I put it on and we started walking just around the house, I felt the power shift. She was watching me and waiting for me to lead her. That helped me feel so much more confident! She walked where I walked and stopped where I stopped. Now the prong collar is her new favorite thing. Thanks all. Sorry about typos, I write these responses quickly off of my phone.



Awesome. Glad things are working out for you!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Cariad said:


> You had ONE bad experience with ONE bad class at ONE training location. That is by no means any sort of cross section of dog trainers nationwide.


 Yes "I" had "One" bad experience with "One" dog, and for me that was one too many! 

I noticed you did not bother to "reference" the trainers, I linked who's observations coincided with my "One" dog experiance? 



Cariad said:


> I think it is far safer when giving advice on how to deal with issues like leash reactivity, barking at people, pulling etc to suggest that person find a professional in their area. As we cant see the person training the dogs themselves and only have a brief paragraph to base suggestions on, telling the person to find a trainer is the first step.


As I did! I guess "you" did not see that either?? 




Cariad said:


> Just as the first step to any medical problem would be to take a dog to a vet. Best to play the law of averages and assume the person can and will benefit from a second set of eyes watching their interaction with their dog in real time.


If that is your thing?? Then you can take that roel. My goal is to help people just like me! People looking for "answers" not a freaking debate! And people that can make ther own "judgements" on what works. I know they are out there because I hear from them and they say to me and my "One" dog experiences "Thank You" for being "different!"I "cite" "sources" if they have further questions, I can't answer or they, or unsure of what they "see here, they can ask the "Experts" themselves! So I'm good thanks. 



Cariad said:


> I agree I would not walk my dog in 11 below weather,


 I don't and if I get the opportunity ... "I" will do just that. 




Cariad said:


> but i do take my dogs to puppy classes not because I need help teaching them basic commands but because I want them to learn to focus on me in a stimulating environment, my husband and I cant become a class full of dogs and people.


 If it works for "you and your dog go for it" clearly ... experiences with training classes vary greatly and now the OP knows that too!



Cariad said:


> If that were for some reason not available to me because of distance then a DVD or online course would be my next best bet.


 If someone asked "me" yep I could point them in a direction and explain the hows and why's of my choice. No one has thus far.

As for "get a DVD" to train your dog:
https://bowwowflix.com/

People can rent "any" one they chose, but if they are "struggling" with their dog's issues? They all would look pretty much the same to them, I would imagine??




Cariad said:


> To the OP regarding prong collars. I use them, however you need to know how to fit them and use them correctly. leerburg (I cant post links yet if someone could post it for me please  ) has an article on how to fit prong collars. They should only be on during the training period and I don't use them to teach new behaviors as there will always be mistakes at first when learning something new.


 Yet again information on using a "Prong Collar" properly has already been given. "Everything" they need to know to use one "Properly," they now have.

But unlike others, I don't try and brow beat someone into using a tool they are uncomfortable with. To the contrary, I "cite" experts and give sources and explain" what the problems "they" have seen with "their" hands on clients and why they recommend the "Pet Convincer" for people struggling with "corrections" using a "Prong Collar." Guess you missed all that are just don't care??

As for leerburgh, here you go if it makes "you" happy. 

Leerburg Dog Training | Puppy Training Articles

Yes he has a lot of answers but he has some holes there too and "some" of his advice is a bit extreme, if a "newbie" knows next to nothing?? Good luck figuring that one out??



Cariad said:


> You said you were looking at classes did you find anything? Where are you located perhaps *someone might have a suggestion for you?*


Gee ... I wonder who said that?

And for "you" a tip from the "Pro's:"

*If people don't like my advise, they don't have to read my post. * 

Home

Author cited.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Hello, everyone! Thanks for your support and for many of you more accurately putting into words what I was trying to say with my first. Before I give you an update on Ves, I wound like to say a few things. First, I love Vesper will all of my heart. I joined this forum months before I adopted her, and knew that it wasn't going to be sunshine and rainbows all the time. I knew training would be hard. She has been much easier than I expected, honestly, so she isn't in any danger of being put down or given away. Even if she was a terrible dog, I would love her and still seek help for her. Many people got the wrong impression of me right off the bat. Since posting my thread, I have researched and called many dog training facilities in our area. I live in Idaho where they consider Petco and Petsmart the pinnacle of dog training. I disagree there. Hopefully I can find something better. In the meantime, I watched tons of videos about the prong collar and went out and bought one. We spent hours yesterday associating the prong collar with treats and letting her adjust to wearing it, loosely at first then fitted. So far, she is already responding well with it on. Hopefully this will help with our leash problems tremendously. We are working on "heel," so that the prong can be phased out eventually. Now comes the reactivity... I want to walk her but try my best to keep her under threshold. Hopefully the prong will help keep her focused on me. As soon as I put it on and we started walking just around the house, I felt the power shift. She was watching me and waiting for me to lead her. That helped me feel so much more confident! She walked where I walked and stopped where I stopped. Now the prong collar is her new favorite thing. Thanks all. Sorry about typos, I write these responses quickly off of my phone.


Awesume so "no brow beating occurred??" 

Most likely I posted this already?? Slight, flick of the risk before the dog "reacts" and "it's move along dog nothing to see here."

Good job thus far. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv75lADEbRM


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Chip, thanks for helping me out without being judgmental. I really appreciate it. So the goal is to correct right before they react??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lexiz - That's great news! This is the big payoff for several of us that post here, when someone puts a plan into action and is showing that they are open and ready to do the work. I'm glad that you overcame your doubts about the prong and decided to give it a try. 

Leerburg has many free training videos on youtube and they have several on proper use and fit of the prong collars. I'm not sure which kind you got, the regular where you have to pinch a link with your fingers or the quick release version. I use a second back up collar for mine because the prong did come undone one time when I was walking my dog. You can buy a carabiner clip to keep the two collars together. 

There are some trainers here that are very helpful - you'll probably have some questions for them once you start using it on a regular basis.  Best of luck to you!


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Stone, I got the quick release kind! Good advice about clipping it to her flat collar. I saw that in the online videos as well. That should help a lot! I appreciate your help. Today we might take Vesper to the college campus because there aren't a ton of people around on Sunday, so it will be a good opportunity to practice.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Stone, I got the quick release kind! Good advice about clipping it to her flat collar. I saw that in the online videos as well. That should help a lot! I appreciate your help. Today we might take Vesper to the college campus because there aren't a ton of people around on Sunday, so it will be a good opportunity to practice.


Good for you!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I actually agree with chip, on the quick flick of the wrist, just as or just before the dog starts to react and move on. 

I totally disagree with chip on training classes. He went to one class that did the puppy playtime crap. Doggy daycare, dog parks -- these are things that people who want to refer to their "fur-babies" as "family", "babies", etc, and then try to fit them into the same types of roles as human children. It maybe works for some breeds, but these are flat out dumb ideas. Sorry. Chip went to one, and knows why they are dumb. But now every time someone suggests classes he has to beat his chest, and say how he can do it without classes, and classes suck.

Classes provide people working with dogs in a controlled fashion. People who probably won't look at you like you brought out a monster if your dog isn't perfectly behaved. People who probably have been there with one of their dogs. 

You can get from here to there without classes, but the people and dogs part of it is a lot more difficult if you have a dog with that issue.

Here ya go, I took Oscar out today. I got him back last January, when he was 5 months old. The people had him for 3 days. Since then, I have not taken him anywhere. Life does get in the way, and I did work with another dog some, but I was working three jobs, and I understand all the excuses because I have used them ALL. I took the boy out today, 17 months old, and the first lady I saw was petting him all over his head.

The dogs we saw he did not react to at all. I saw a Newfoundland the size of a Shetland pony bursting through the door at PetsMart and I quickly went in front of my dog and walked him around the dog to get out. My dog did nothing. PetsMart could not restrain him in the back for his bath, so we went to PetCo, and I was just going to do it myself, when the lady there said she was free, so I had her do it, with me staying there. The dog was fine. He let her hose him down, and lather him up, and clean his junk, clip his nails, dig in his ears, and she went two separate rounds with him and the dryer, and two with the brushes, and at the end, I had a clean dog, who had experienced a real bath for the first time. The groomer had many doggy kisses, and plenty of Oscar hair all over her.

Walking out a little dog came shooting at us barking and snarling, I walked Oscar on by and the people in the line were impressed with how well he was behaving. I also had a martingale on him and he was maintaining a loose lead.

Now this is with zero training, zero work on my part. Zero socialization away from my home. This dog does not have the reactivity issues. I have had dogs that were reactive. So I understand the issue, and I have had some success with it. This dog doesn't have the problem. So when Chip says, the one with the reactivity issues was the one that went to classes -- totally possible. The other dogs just weren't reactive. And, yes, a chaotic puppy class CAN cause issues. 

So it did not hurt Oscar to wait it out, and not go to classes. Oscar is probably my twenty-something-th GSD that I have raised, maybe 30 something, so not my first dog, not my first GSD, not my 10th GSD. And, I raised his mother and his grandmother, and his great grandmother, so I have a little experience with his lines, and what to expect out of him. 

I STILL take most of my dog through classes. Oscar is one of the few that haven't been. The reason is that I can't see myself work, and the classes give me those other people/dogs. And, if I pay the money, I will get the dog there, and as that might be the only training the dog gets in a week, it is important that I get the dog there.

And, for a dog that is having people-issues, or dog-issues, with a novice owner, classes are the way to go. -- Novice owner is someone who either has their first dog, first GSD, or first dog with some behavioral challenges, even the first dog with this particular issue. Easy dogs do not make us grow as trainers/handlers. They are fun to have, and we can love them, but Oscar isn't going to teach me much, he isn't going to challenge me to improve my technique. Maybe with someone with less experience, he would be quite a challenge. Hard to say. It's the dogs that we worry about, that we work with, that we struggle with, that we have to adjust our thinking about training that make us grow as a trainer. And classes can help with that a whole lot.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sofie and Miya's Mom said:


> Selzer, my response was not about the OP, my post never mentions the OP. This was in response to Ironhorse poster from Texas.


When someone posts that they aren't going to fork out money for training, they have kids and a wife and don't have time for that hogwash, and the other stuff he said, sorry, while I did not chastise him for getting a dog, I did say I wouldn't sell him one, and I also said some people shouldn't own dogs.

Since so many dogs are put down because of training/management/leadership issues, I see training as important as veterinary care. If our dog is bleeding, we can find the money to take them to the vet. If our dog is acting out, we run an internet search to find some magic solution to the issue. When we bring home a pup, we take them to the vet for preventative vaccinations and flea and tick and wormer preventative, to get the pup off on the right paw. Taking the pup to classes to get him off to a good start -- no money for that, no time for that, no classes near enough, classes are chaotic, and it goes on. We need to change people's mindset so we don't have so many people coming up with adolescent dogs have serious issues. This one is is young, get her back in line NOW, don't wait until the weather is nicer and the behaviors are more set, and worsening.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I actually agree with chip, on the quick flick of the wrist, just as or just before the dog starts to react and move on.
> 
> I totally disagree with chip on training classes. He went to one class that did the puppy playtime crap. Doggy daycare, dog parks -- these are things that people who want to refer to their "fur-babies" as "family", "babies", etc, and then try to fit them into the same types of roles as human children. It maybe works for some breeds, but these are flat out dumb ideas. Sorry. Chip went to one, and knows why they are dumb.






selzer said:


> But now every time someone suggests classes he has to beat his chest, and say how he can do it without classes, and classes suck.


 To be fair ... AFAIK, this is my only "Chest Thumping" Anti Training Class" "rant???" This poster had already got "screwed over once and I did not want to see it happen again. Pretty much that simple. :hug:



selzer said:


> Classes provide people working with dogs in a controlled fashion. People who probably won't look at you like you brought out a monster if your dog isn't perfectly behaved. People who probably have been there with one of their dogs.
> 
> You can get from here to there without classes, but the people and dogs part of it is a lot more difficult if you have a dog with that issue.
> 
> ...


LOL ... I did "expand" the discussion, in my rather "unique" fashion, so now folk know "all training classes are not created equal." I'm good with that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> To be fair ... AFAIK, this is my only "Chest Thumping" Anti Training Class" "rant???" This poster had already got "screwed over once and I did not want to see it happen again. Pretty much that simple. :hug:
> 
> LOL ... I did "expand" the discussion, in my rather "unique" fashion, so now folk know "all training classes are not created equal." I'm good with that.


Actually, I've read your anti-dog-class spiel a few times. Different threads. 

But yeah, all classes are not created equal, and we could have some sort of sticky in the training section or new puppy owner section that shows how to tell if the class you are in is good or bad. How to find a good trainer, kind of like how to find a good breeder. Maybe the mods can make such a thread be the thread of the week thing in that section that only some people can make a topic, and then, when it is healthy stick it in those areas, training and puppy. 

Training is really, really, really important. We need to stress this stuff. I don't like to see young dogs getting the axe. We need to help people come out of the gate right. This OP, was here before she got her puppy, but she did not get from this site that training was important. Ok, she is training her dog, but I think for new owners especially, they need to get out there with someone who knows what to look for, knows what to say. 

There are too many crappy trainers out there. All you have to do is hang a shingle and poof! you are a dog trainer. We need to change mindsets.

I am in a weird mood. 

Full moon?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Weird mood and also right. There are terrible classes. I watched one in a pet store where I knew the trainer had come out of one of those professional all positive courses, with a lot of memorization and little practical experience. He said Sit Sit Sit Sit to a dog, who ignored him, stuffed it with treats, then said He's not going to Sit, let's move on to the next dog. I was tempted to march into their enclosure and take over but I restrained myself. How can they call that training? There are good trainers everywhere. Whenever I see a remarkable dog, I ask people with those well trained and calm dogs where they trained and which teacher, so I have a list now of trainers I can go to for any type of training.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Chip, thanks for helping me out without being judgmental. I really appreciate it. So the goal is to correct right before they react??


 To answer your question directly "yes" just that. So you'll have to watch him (your dog) closely with the other dog thing. If he goes over threshold turn around and try again. See last link.

And it should still take just a "flick" to bring back focus. If it takes more than that with the "Prong" and you have to start to "escalate" then you my be in the problem with "Prong Corrections" zone??

The "Pet Convincer" sidesteps that "potential" issue. My further observations ... on the dog reactivity issue is they used to be solved like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9e_1uCQUYvE

I use the "Pet Convincer" approach, but instead of a "PC" I use a Slip Lead Leash (only) and I just go right at it, last two links here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7400865-post6.html

... "I'm not putting up with any crap dog. " A slight tug sideways and we're good to go. With dogs in rescue, so far so good. With "proper corrections" and "timing" the "Prong Collar" is easier to use than a SLL, ... so I hear. 

The PC let's you do "that" (proper corrections) "if" you find yourself struggling with "Prong Corrections, the "PC" is a viable solution. But ... a "light touch" is the key with the "Prong" and slight sideways pressure not straight back, it doesn't take force.

But there is a third option, see here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzVrysP3tQY

I think option number three would work well for most people??

Hope that helps???


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Yes, thank you!

Also, I'm not doing a Petco or Petsmart class because I don't think that would help Ves, but if I find another class, how will I know if it's good or not?


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

As a professional trainer, I highly recommend the use of the pinch(prong) collar. When used correctly along with rewards, it is an excellent way to communicate with your dog. Below, are two links to an easy to use video by Tyler Muto on how to use a pinch collar:


https://youtu.be/nibaQnS44FE

https://youtu.be/85r03U5WPV8

As for the barking, I would highly recommend teaching the "climb" "place" command. The climb/place is an elevated surface that the dog must jump onto and stay there until released. They are not allowed to bark while on the climb/place. I do not know aby videos off of the top of my head to refer you to, though I am sure you can find and instructional video by typing "place command" in on youtube.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Yes, thank you!
> 
> Also, I'm not doing a Petco or Petsmart class because I don't think that would help Ves, but if I find another class, how will I know if it's good or not?


LOL, I don't know all the answers but I know where to find them! PM Selzer, I'm sure she'd be happy to help. 


Or, I'm sure Jeff Gellman can help find a training class local to you. You can ask him on FaceBook. 

https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/

Sigh ... but in general, no puppy free play and attend one of their class sessions and observe how the trainers work and handle and instruct their students. 

Those would be a few things "I" did not do.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thanks all! If you want to see Vesper (it won't let me post photos how I used to) or just keep up with our adventures. I post about her on Instagram and her username is @vesperthegsd 

I appreciate the advice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lexiz said:


> Yes, thank you!
> 
> Also, I'm not doing a Petco or Petsmart class because I don't think that would help Ves, but if I find another class, how will I know if it's good or not?


I think it is wise to stay away from training at box stores. I have, and have had success there, but I was basically going more for the socialization with a youngster, than for actually training. And it really does depend on the trainer. But, the trainers at those stores are handcuffed. They cannot use some tools, and they cannot show you how to do an effective correction. The store does not want customers witnessing people correcting their dogs with prong collars. So they generally disallow the use of the tool in their classes, even though they sell them on their shelves.

Personally, I don't like prongs, and don't use them. But I would rather see someone with a dog under control using a prong collar, than someone trying and failing to be effective with their dog. Good leaders do not shout, yell, strike, or fight with their dogs, they don't plead, they don't repeat commands, they do not prolong punishment (even verbal). 

When contacting places to train, ask questions to the trainer. Ask what the class will cover in 6 or 8 weeks. Ask what tools the trainer prefers the class to use. Ask what breeds the trainer is comfortable with or uncomfortable with. Listen, listen, listen. Ask if you can sit through an individual class without your dog. If at all possible do this. 

What you are looking for is whether or not the trainer has control. Chaos is not a good learning environment. For advanced dogs it might be good, just for proofing etc. But you want a trainer whose class respects her, and who can manage the group. If there is an unweildy number of dogs in the class to just one trainer, that isn't good either. 6 or 8 people is enough, because you want her to be able to observe what you are doing wrong and offer suggestions that will work for you and your pup. That isn't happening in big groups.

You want a trainer that isn't going to hobble you by requiring a certain type of device. If a trainer says I must use a flat collar or a prong collar or a head collar or a choke chain, I won't go. If they say all dogs must have a martingale, choke, or prong on, then I am ok with that. Dogs can slip a flat collar, and a trainer who has had to break up a dog fight caused by that, might require something a dog can't slip.

If a trainer gives you a list of rules, good. These are to protect your dog and to protect other dogs while you are there. It spells out what is not desirable behavior, which you want to know. And if the trainer gives the class things to work on in the coming week, that's good too. 

Good luck finding a good class. Maybe someone from your general location can point you in the direction of a good trainer. If not, you might be able to look up certified American Pet Dog trainers. APDTs. Also, you can ask what the trainer does with their own dogs and whether they are certified to do any type of testing, like CGC testing, TDI testing, that sort of thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jeeeeppppersss...some people's children.

OP - Denise Fenzi has very good online classes. 

The first step to training is focus. You can't have focus without a relationship. So build the relationship.  Play games with your dog. Recall games. Games with toys. Incorporate obedience in the games. Add distractions.

You can find all the above in classes on Denise Fenzi's website.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> I think it is wise to stay away from training at box stores. I have, and have had success there, but I was basically going more for the socialization with a youngster, than for actually training. And it really does depend on the trainer. But, the trainers at those stores are handcuffed. They cannot use some tools, and they cannot show you how to do an effective correction. The store does not want customers witnessing people correcting their dogs with prong collars. So they generally disallow the use of the tool in their classes, even though they sell them on their shelves.
> 
> Personally, I don't like prongs, and don't use them. But I would rather see someone with a dog under control using a prong collar, than someone trying and failing to be effective with their dog. Good leaders do not shout, yell, strike, or fight with their dogs, they don't plead, they don't repeat commands, they do not prolong punishment (even verbal).
> 
> ...


Earlier you wrote that I hadn't figured that training was important for my dog, but that isn't true at all. I have worked with Vesper since the very day that we brought her home. However, she is a very stubborn dog and doesn't have a super stable temperament, which makes things difficult at times. I'm not a professional by any means, but I know that training is important, hence my presence here asking for help. It may seem like I "waited" until she was ten months, but I have been working for months. I realized that what I was doing was ineffective, and that I needed to get more help before it was too late. In my opinion, 10 months is still very young, and she still has a lot of potential to be a wonderful, well-behaved dog. I live in Eastern Idaho and go to college here. Money isn't a big deal, but traveling is because of my classes and everything. (They are spaced out so that I can be with Vesper most of the day for exercising.) I just wouldn't have a ton of time to travel. I googled some dog training places here, and didn't find anything really promising. :crazy: I got a response from one lady, so I will continue to ask her questions. Her next class doesn't begin until March. If I deem that it's an acceptable breeder for our needs, I will enroll in the class and make it work for us.

Thanks again for your help.








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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Also, I figured out how to get photos in... So here is the subject of conversation herself... The fabulous Miss Vesper... :wub:








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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Jeeeeppppersss...some people's children.
> 
> OP - Denise Fenzi has very good online classes.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! I appreciate your help. I will look into that as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are levels you can do from just doing the exercises in teh class to videotaping and having her review your work. As you are new, I think it would be very beneficial to go with the upper levels so you get feedback from her. And you can go back for months and review the videos from the class you take


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> There are levels you can do from just doing the exercises in teh class to videotaping and having her review your work. As you are new, I think it would be very beneficial to go with the upper levels so you get feedback from her. And you can go back for months and review the videos from the class you take


Sounds very good! I'm looking at some local options, but if we can't find somewhere nearby, I think that the online classes are my next choice. That sounds like a great options.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would look at it in addition to local classes. Locally you'll be able to get the socialization and experience around other dogs but Denise is a top notch trainer. I have found the vast majority of pet trainers do not teach engagement. And that is what you need most of all.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I would look at it in addition to local classes. Locally you'll be able to get the socialization and experience around other dogs but Denise is a top notch trainer. I have found the vast majority of pet trainers do not teach engagement. And that is what you need most of all.


That's a very good point. Thank you. I haven't looked at the website yet, but do you know the approximate cost just so that I can make a plan?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Check out Tyler Muto on the tube, 

Leash work 










Place command






How to fit prong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

Simple way to approach self control in a dog


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

MadLab, thank you so much for the videos! I'll watch them!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lexiz said:


> That's a very good point. Thank you. I haven't look at the website yet, but do you know the approximate cost just so that I can make a plan?


You'll have to look. It's been awhile since I took a class.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> You'll have to look. It's been awhile since I took a class.


Alright, I will check it out ASAP!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I would think it is normal to be dealing with issues at that age too as issues generally start popping up at that age. The honey moon is over, cute pup is gone and the dogs gets too strong and needs some control. It's still cute though lol.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I would think it is normal to be dealing with issues at that age too as issues generally start popping up at that age. The honey moon is over, cute pup is gone and the dogs gets too strong and needs some control. It's still cute though lol.


For the most part, we have avoided any crazy adolescent behavior. She really is a sweetheart! But yes, they get bigger and harder to control, then the underlying issues really become true problems.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Actually, I've read your anti-dog-class spiel a few times. Different threads.


I'm pretty sure that is directed at "trainers" of a certain school of thought working with dogs with "issues they can't solve with the methods they use. Not people attending training classes?? 

I'm tempted to say "show me" ...but I won't. 

Nonetheless, dare I say "because," I said something to the "find a training class suggestion" ... you provided "in my view" an excellent post on finding a training "class!" 

So I say job well done, it will be saved and shared in the future, so whatever I was doing in "this" regard I have... no need to now.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> When someone posts that they aren't going to fork out money for training, they have kids and a wife and don't have time for that hogwash, and the other stuff he said, sorry, while I did not chastise him for getting a dog, I did say I wouldn't sell him one, and I also said some people shouldn't own dogs.
> 
> Since so many dogs are put down because of training/management/leadership issues, I see training as important as veterinary care. If our dog is bleeding, we can find the money to take them to the vet. If our dog is acting out, we run an internet search to find some magic solution to the issue. When we bring home a pup, we take them to the vet for preventative vaccinations and flea and tick and wormer preventative, to get the pup off on the right paw. Taking the pup to classes to get him off to a good start -- no money for that, no time for that, no classes near enough, classes are chaotic, and it goes on. We need to change people's mindset so we don't have so many people coming up with adolescent dogs have serious issues. This one is is young, get her back in line NOW, don't wait until the weather is nicer and the behaviors are more set, and worsening.



LMAO!!!
Would not sell me a dog!??......First off, I didn't ask to buy a dog from you. I could care less wether or not you think I'm fit to own a dog, or two dogs for that matter. 
Because I won't shell out money for classes, somehow that makes me unfit to be a dog owner?? Where do you get off being so judgmental because my standards are not yours?? There is absolutely nothing wrong with my dogs. They're both happy and healthy. 
The thing that separates me from you is you're a dog snob and I'm not. If people aren't up to your standards, they shouldn't own dogs. You didn't chastise me me for getting a dog but you wanted to. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. To be honest, I'm a little appalled at your snobbery. As if GSD's should only be reserved for the very best of homes and families who can offer the best. What a crock. I'm out. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IronhorseRomo - there is this nifty ignore feature


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I definitely think that everyone has such different ideas about what it means to own a dog. I think that dogs should be trained and have manners. They should be exercised. However, I know that my dogs will never do agility or IPO or anything like that. Even if I'm not a perfect owner, I know that I'm doing my very best and trying to improve. I give my dog good food and a good home. I agree that we can't all reach the highest standard of ownership. We should all support each other in whatever capacity we can. My goal this year is to improve Vesper's training and to set her up for success. Whether that involves a class or not, we will see! Let's not belittle others or condescend when we don't agree with their methods.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

IronhorseRomo said:


> LMAO!!!
> Would not sell me a dog!??......First off, I didn't ask to buy a dog from you. I could care less wether or not you think I'm fit to own a dog, or two dogs for that matter.
> Because I won't shell out money for classes, somehow that makes me unfit to be a dog owner?? Where do you get off being so judgmental because my standards are not yours?? There is absolutely nothing wrong with my dogs. They're both happy and healthy.
> The thing that separates me from you is you're a dog snob and I'm not. If people aren't up to your standards, they shouldn't own dogs. You didn't chastise me me for getting a dog but you wanted to. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. To be honest, I'm a little appalled at your snobbery. As if GSD's should only be reserved for the very best of homes and families who can offer the best. What a crock. I'm out.
> ...


Jax always has good advice Iron.



> This message is hidden because selzer is on your ignore list.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

IronhorseRomo said:


> LMAO!!!
> Would not sell me a dog!??......First off, I didn't ask to buy a dog from you. I could care less wether or not you think I'm fit to own a dog, or two dogs for that matter.
> Because I won't shell out money for classes, somehow that makes me unfit to be a dog owner?? Where do you get off being so judgmental because my standards are not yours?? There is absolutely nothing wrong with my dogs. They're both happy and healthy.
> The thing that separates me from you is you're a dog snob and I'm not. If people aren't up to your standards, they shouldn't own dogs. You didn't chastise me me for getting a dog but you wanted to. Otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. To be honest, I'm a little appalled at your snobbery. As if GSD's should only be reserved for the very best of homes and families who can offer the best. What a crock. I'm out.
> ...


It's more your attitude:

"*Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather.* *I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time."*

I don't mind being a dog-snob. 

LOL, walking in freezing weather, 11 degrees, -11 degrees. I work outside every day for an hour to an hour and a half, whether it is 90 degrees out, or -17 degrees out. Doesn't matter. If I am sick, or injured, or recovering from surgery, whether I go to work, or not, doesn't matter -- that work with the dogs must be done, every day, rain, sleet, snow, blizzard, wind, ice. And you aren't going to take the dog for a walk if the dog needs exercise. You aren't going to spend money on classes if the dog is having behavioral issues that you aren't getting anywhere with. Whatever. It's the attitude, sir, that is appalling to me, not necessarily the lack of dog classes in dogs that are doing fine.

So great, we appall each other. Two people from opposite ends of the country that never met and probably never will. We must try not to sink beneath our anguish.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww man now we got -17! Curse these mild Northern NV winters!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lexiz said:


> I definitely think that everyone has such different ideas about what it means to own a dog. I think that dogs should be trained and have manners. They should be exercised. However, I know that my dogs will never do agility or IPO or anything like that. Even if I'm not a perfect owner, I know that I'm doing my very best and trying to improve. I give my dog good food and a good home. I agree that we can't all reach the highest standard of ownership. We should all support each other in whatever capacity we can. My goal this year is to improve Vesper's training and to set her up for success. Whether that involves a class or not, we will see! Let's not belittle others or condescend when we don't agree with their methods.


Training classes, most of them, are for people who are not going to do obedience, IPO, or anything like that, because having a well-mannered pet, having a great bond with a dog is what most people want and need. 

Some people enjoy the classes so much, that they go on and they do title their dogs. They go into other avenues of training. You have your pup out there among sheep, herding is something that you and your pup may enjoy immensely. The dog gets exercise, uses her brain and her natural instinct, as well as listens for your instructions. Great outlet. 

If you are having issues with your dog, classes can help you become more consistent, more clear to your dog, and when that happens, the dog trusts you more, and you trust the dog more, and the bond grows stronger.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Update: Vesper is learning the "place" command very well. I say "place" and she jumps up on "her" ottoman. It's the ottoman for our couch but she had claimed it as her bed. Silly dog. Question now, when guests come over, I say "place," and then what?


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Oh, and she doesn't get down until I release her!


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Selzer, Vesper will start her first class in March after I go and view the class. She will only go to that trainer if I like how the class goes! Trainer said she doesn't have problems with German shepherds, and that the class focuses a lot on engaging with the owner in distracting situations.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Aww man now we got -17! Curse these mild Northern NV winters!


LOL! Last year we got -27 here one night, and -17 one morning, but usually it doesn't go below -10 in the dead of night here. Usually. 

It's 12 degrees now, and has been steadily getting colder all day. But this has been a mild winter. Hope it stays that way. Got Oscar groomed today, and he is outside right now trying to de-groom himself. Hopefully, it is cold enough that he won't be too effective.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good on the classes, and glad you are working on stuff/checking out stuff on the internet in between.

Not much help on the PLACE command. I tell mine to GO TO MY BED or GO TO THE STUDY. And she goes the one way or the other. I won't see her again, unless I call her. Outside, I tell her to GO TO MY HOUSE, or GO TO MY CAR. l suppose it is kind of like the place command, because she will go to my front door and then wait for me, or to to my car and wait for me. 

I think the thing is, when we have some negative behaviors, a lot of times it is because the dog is worried and not sure what to do. But if we tell the dog what we want them to do. Oh, yeah, SIT, I know SIT, or Go To My Bed, I know Go To My Bed, and the dog goes and does it, because she is trained, and there is no confusion about that command.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Yes, I definitely see what you're saying. It gives them something to do so they feel more secure and in control. She's learning well so far. We split time between two houses so I will teach her another place when we head back that way. I'm hoping that will make things less stressful for her when guests come over. Waiting to hear back from the trainer to see if I can sit in on one of her classes.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> LOL! Last year we got -27 here one night, and -17 one morning, but usually it doesn't go below -10 in the dead of night here. Usually.
> 
> It's 12 degrees now, and has been steadily getting colder all day. But this has been a mild winter. Hope it stays that way. Got Oscar groomed today, and he is outside right now trying to de-groom himself. Hopefully, it is cold enough that he won't be too effective.


 -27?? OK that is just flat insane! People can exist in that?? Sounds extreme how long did it stay like that and would be the night time lows, I would assume??


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip I am north of Selzer in Michigan.The last two winters were brutal!Way below zero for many weeks.And then the wind chill factor on top of that.Several of us on the forum got frostbite on toes and fingers.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> It's more your attitude:
> 
> "*Ain't no way I'm walking in freezing weather.* *I don't have a very high income and have 2 kids and a wife and a busy life. I don't have time for training classes. Some people just can't afford the very best of things and the luxury of time."*
> 
> ...



I admire your hardcore dedication to your dog(s). I do see the need for training classes. I've just never needed any. Maybe a point in the right direction every now and then. If I had a dog that was out of control or had problems that I couldn't fix, I would seek professional help. But for simple stuff I can do on my own. No thanks. 
When I say I'm not walking my dogs in below freezing weather, I'm from TEXAS. The cold is not what we do. Lol. If it's too cold for me to be outside, we're not going outside. But it's not that often that that happens where I live. 
I'm nowhere near as hardcore as you are. And I work outside for a living. Lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> -27?? OK that is just flat insane! People can exist in that?? Sounds extreme how long did it stay like that and would be the night time lows, I would assume??


Yep, that was the night I had my nieces over and the propane ran out about 11PM. I had no idea it would be _that _cold. I put most of the afgans and comforters on the couch for the girls, and Cujo. Babs and I slept in my bed. I figured, they used to let the fire die during the long winter in the old Little House in the Prarie books. -40 degrees. And they lived. Starving. We weren't starving and I had a small electric radiator for the bathroom and for the kitchen hoping the pipes wouldn't freeze.

It was insane. I told the girls to stay under the covers in the morning until the man with the Propane showed up and we could get the house warm. But it was COLD!

I ran out of propane 3 times last winter, and my pipe burst once. That was awful. Hauling water from my parents house in sub zero degree weather every day. Miserable. Having to wait until it hit zero to let the dogs out for the day, and then go to work. 3 days, the dogs had to stay inside all day and all night. And I spent the entire time letting various ones out for potty breaks. 

It was nasty last winter. This winter has been kind. It looks pretty scary out there right now, but, so far, not much to complain about.

Just the one night at -27 though. That is the coldest I can remember it ever being in NE Ohio, and that included the 70's when we walked to school, up hill, both ways, practically barefooted.


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Chip I am north of Selzer in Michigan.The last two winters were brutal!Way below zero for many weeks.And then the wind chill factor on top of that.Several of us on the forum got frostbite on toes and fingers.


All the more reason to stay in Texas. Lol. The coldest its been here was 28 one morning. I don't see how y'all do it. 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Sofie and Miya's Mom (Dec 21, 2015)

You are clearly farther south than I, we had 4 inches of snow at the beginning of December. Most nights since November have gone into the low 20's and have had wind chills in the teens....brrrr..that is miserable weather for west central Texas, haha....Funny the dogs love it....

Lexiz....glad you've got some ideas to work with, best of luck to you. You do have a very pretty girl.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

IronhorseRomo said:


> All the more reason to stay in Texas. Lol. The coldest its been here was 28 one morning. I don't see how y'all do it.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk



28 is bloody cold in October. 
28 is balmy t-shirt weather in February. 

I suppose everything is relative. 

We have the worst of both worlds. 

Ok, we don't go to -40 below here, and we don't go much over 100 in the summer. But we do get to miserable on both ends of the scale, and most of the time that includes massive amounts of precipitation of some form.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Sofie, thanks so much! 

I don't even wear a coat here when it's in the low 30's because that feels so warm! Everything is relative I guess. 

Snowed about six inches yesterday. Vesper was very excited about that!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lexiz said:


> Sofie, thanks so much!
> 
> I don't even wear a coat here when it's in the low 30's because that feels so warm! Everything is relative I guess.
> 
> Snowed about six inches yesterday. Vesper was very excited about that!


LOL, in the thirties, I will work with the dogs outside in a t-shirt and jeans or sweat pants. In the teens, I will use a t-shirt and sweat shirt, sweat pants and jeans, and add a hat and maybe gloves. In negative numbers, I add long johns, and extra pair of socks, a hood and scarf, and some form of jacket over that mess. 

Along about February, I start singing "Sunshine on My Shoulders Makes Me Happy" while doing poop patrol, in hopes that God will get weary of my whining about it and give in.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Update: Vesper is learning the "place" command very well. I say "place" and she jumps up on "her" ottoman. It's the ottoman for our couch but she had claimed it as her bed. Silly dog. Question now, when guests come over, I say "place," and then what?


 The "Ottoman???" Hmm Ok ... that is a new one on me??

You have the "concept" but the execution is flawed. I have to admit I have been surprised by a few creative interpretations of "Place" as of late?? 

On BoxerForum a member said his dog already knows "Place" he can stay in "Place" for ten minutes. That's not "Place" that's a long stay. 

But "Place" maybe this explains it better?? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omg5DVPWIWo

And a real world application, Sean works Gus in the "Place Command." 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU1On4PNbsI

When "properly trained" you can point and say "Place" and the dog is free to move around in that spot but not from it. In the beginning, you can use towels or cushy bath mats or throw rugs. When your dog can stay in "Place" for two hours minimum then he has it down. At that point you can point and say "Place" anywhere and the dog "knows" not to move from that spot.

At the other house, if there is no "ottoman" your out of luck. You are actually training your dog to jump on furniture. If you train with bath mats or dog-sized throw rugs, you can roll the rug it up and take it with you to the other house. Put it where you want the dog to be and say "Place." 

Additionally, I don't know if your dog is car proofed?? All of mine were but I did it "old" school" put them in the car open the door if they jumped out without permission "OK" ?? Back in you go until released.

Real world, I can park the car open in the driveway, open Rocky's door (not say a word to him) turn around, cross the street, walk down to the mailbox, come back to the car, open the hatchback, take in the grocers, come back to the car stand by his door and he won't step out until I say "OK." You would also be training thresholds. 

It seems to me, one can train the same behaviour with a "Properly Taught" Place Command. And the other one I taught but did not realize I had, until (My One Dog) is "On The Lawn" our front yard is a gaint "Place Mat." All my dogs knew this. But I only realized it was a "command" with "Rocky." 

On a walk home one day, I had said "On the lawn" Rocky was off leash and I was following. I stopped to tie my shoe and I looked up and he was still going?? We were about two houses from home. So I stand and watch, as he walks past two homes, gets to our driveway, goes on the lawn, turns around and looks for me! I was stunned!

That one was "mine" I'd not seen that done anywhere online?? But part of the behaviours already in place were no "Dog Parks" so seeing a dog across the street means nothing to him. And Cats mean nothing to him. He doesn't even see cats in the environment and yeah he doesn't like people so no temptations there (that last one was tough for my Boxer) but even she understood "On The Lawn."

This may have gotten lost:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

No "ottomans" in there anywhere.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

You're missing the point here. The ottoman is the place that she goes to feel safe. She is not allowed on furniture except in special cases. The ottoman is her bed, basically. Also, as we are just beginning to work on the place command, I think that it's fine. She doesn't go through a doorway or jump out of a car until I say she can. I don't see how it matters what her place is when people come over. In my opinion it should be somewhere that she feels comfortable and safe. She likes the ottoman, so the ottoman is where she can go. For what you're saying about the place where she has to stay, I just use stay for that command. If I say stay, then she will stay there until I tell her to move.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Also, if I want to use any other word and teach her the same command at another house, I can. I could say "bed" and she would lay on her bed then have to stay there. It would be the same concept pretty much, with or without an ottoman. She is smart. Once she realizes that place means "get on your bed and stay there" she will be fine. At one house we say her "bed" and the other we say "ottoman," mostly so us humans can keep them apart. To her they are basically the same thing: her sleeping/relaxing place.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

When starting the place command, this article says that using something that is elevated will help the dog learn the boundaries of the object at first. It's very clear to the dog when she is on the place or off the place, so she knows what is expected of her. 


http://sitmeanssit.com/teaching-the-place-command/


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> When starting the place command, this article says that using something that is elevated will help the dog learn the boundaries of the object at first. It's very clear to the dog when she is on the place or off the place, so she knows what is expected of her.
> 
> 
> Teaching the 'Place' Command - Sit Means Sit


Well ... that is not a site I sourced for you. 

But no pictures, no illustrations or videos, I see where you got the ottoman thing now. My links are a bit more detailed. But now I understand! 

This would be what they were referring to:
PetCot

If the "Place" is elevated it is easier for the dog to understand where he needs to be. It's called a "Place Cot" I believe. But if you have been saying "Place" the adjustment to a towel or rug, should be pretty easy for him. 

Here is one in use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O75dyWITP1s


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I have not read all the comments, but I suggest you start with teaching leash pressure. Look up Tyler Muto's conversational leash work and his follow me, yield to me videos. You do not need a prong collar to do this exercise. This is basically how I train my own dogs and dogs that pull very hard how to walk on a leash. Yes you have to change directions a lot, but this will significantly improve the dog's focus. The other thing is that you mentioned you have your dog in a spot when people come over and when she calms down, you release her and then if she starts barking again, you would place her. In my opinion, this dog needs more duration work. The dog doesn't need to meet people. I would suggest leaving her in the one spot until the guests leave. If guests are over for extended time say 2-3 hours, then give her a little break and tell everyone not to interact with her. Tell them to act like she doesn't exist. Once break is over, place her again.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

That's just one website that I read. I have looked at dozens, including the ones you provided, and have seen the pet cot. However, I don't see a huge difference and Vesper seems perfectly happy to sit/lay on her place, wherever it may be.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I have a pet cot for my mastiff. It's very high quality and worth the $100.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Hector, is that similar to silky leash technique? We tried the switching directions thing for months and basically never left our street. She is a stubborn one, for sure.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

lexiz said:


> Hector, is that similar to silky leash technique? We tried the switching directions thing for months and basically never left our street. She is a stubborn one, for sure.


Yes, you must have good timing and understand how to apply and release pressure. If 6 ft leash is not working, try a longer leash like 8 or 10 ft.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/romansk9training/videos/1238722716141723/?pnref=story


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

We have already starting using the prong, but I will keep that in mind as we start phasing it out later, or if it isn't successful.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hector3 said:


> I have not read all the comments, but I suggest you start with teaching leash pressure. Look up Tyler Muto's conversational leash work and his follow me, yield to me videos. You do not need a prong collar to do this exercise. This is basically how I train my own dogs and dogs that pull very hard how to walk on a leash. Yes you have to change directions a lot, but this will significantly improve the dog's focus. The other thing is that you mentioned you have your dog in a spot when people come over and when she calms down, you release her and then if she starts barking again, you would place her. In my opinion, this dog needs more duration work. The dog doesn't need to meet people. I would suggest leaving her in the one spot until the guests leave. If guests are over for extended time say 2-3 hours, then give her a little break and tell everyone not to interact with her. Tell them to act like she doesn't exist. Once break is over, place her again.


I think I posted it alread but ... done.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB8dhKNichw

She seems to get the "Prong" I was a bit surprised myself.  And I believe we are moving on to dog reactivity.

And yep company coming over dogs in "Place" it's a big hit on "BoxerForum" aggression is not really a problem but an over abundance of "crazy" is!


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I did watch tons of videos on silky leash technique and tried my best. It's entirely possibly that I wasn't doing it correctly, but she just didn't seem interested in it at all. We had tried almost everything (that I could tell with my limited experiment) short of the prong collar. I know a girl who owns an amazingly trained husky who said that the prong was their favorite tool, so that was one of my main motivations for giving it a try. So far it is Vesper's favorite thing in the world. Prong collar means treats if she walks beside me, and she is all for that. Once we are more comfortable, we can move outside and work on the leash reactivity. I plan to do that by keeping her under threshold and using high value treats.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I meant experience, not experiment. Sigh. My phone.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

lexiz said:


> We have already starting using the prong, but I will keep that in mind as we start phasing it out later, or if it isn't successful.


Prong is not bad. It allows you to speak louder with less pressure.


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## Hector3 (Jul 23, 2013)

lexiz said:


> I did watch tons of videos on silky leash technique and tried my best. It's entirely possibly that I wasn't doing it correctly, but she just didn't seem interested in it at all. We had tried almost everything (that I could tell with my limited experiment) short of the prong collar. I know a girl who owns an amazingly trained husky who said that the prong was their favorite tool, so that was one of my main motivations for giving it a try. So far it is Vesper's favorite thing in the world. Prong collar means treats if she walks beside me, and she is all for that. Once we are more comfortable, we can move outside and work on the leash reactivity. I plan to do that by keeping her under threshold and using high value treats.


You can only get so much by watching videos. You have to just go out and experiment with it. Leash handling skills are very important.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

1.) Yes, she responds much better to correction on the prong. 

2.) That's what I said earlier, we did practice, for months. We couldn't get more than ten feet without her surging ahead and us having to turn around. My neighbors thought I was a lunatic because it just looked like we were pacing back and forth. Then I thought maybe she just expected it and had gotten that down into a routine, so I took her other places and we paced there too. Worked in the house, applied pressure, when she relieved the pressure: click then treat. Did that in the backyard. Did that in the park. She just would not cooperate. If you knew her, you would call her a diva. She needs the strong correction.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Have a look here, he using a Flat leash and regular collar, it's not about the tool it's how it's used. That is what I did when I started to get how to walk a dog correctly. SO I only used a Flat leash and regular collar. I only used a SLL at Boxer Rescue a year or so ago and because you could position it high and snug, I found it insanely easy to use. 

You can apply the same "principle" with any tool. A dog should not really notice "whatever' is on his neck when done correctly. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gnwfZ7xv-E0

Tylor "Conversational Leash Work" is a modified softer version of "The Kohler Method of Dog Training" he just tossed out the abrupt change of direction and guides the dog in the new direction 

I took a quick look at a "silky leash" clip ... to be kind I'll say, nothing I'll be saving. 

You'll notice in the clips I sourced "none" of those trainers are using "treats" to entice the dog into cooperating ... just saying. 

Can you post of a clip of what your doing??


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## Cariad (Jan 2, 2016)

lexiz said:


> Update: Vesper is learning the "place" command very well. I say "place" and she jumps up on "her" ottoman. It's the ottoman for our couch but she had claimed it as her bed. Silly dog. Question now, when guests come over, I say "place," and then what?


Do you have any friends that could come help you out? Have them knock on the door and correct her if she moves or barks. Reward her staying quiet and on her ottoman. Then move to opening the door, then having them come inside. Slow gradual steps until she learns that when someone knocks and comes in she should place until you invite her over. Also make sure the friends know they shouldn't engage the dog no touching her. Talking to her or making eye contact as that will reward bad behavior with attention.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Do you have any friends that could come help you out? Have them knock on the door and correct her if she moves or barks.


I would say no need to rush it. Imo you would desensitize the dog to the door way as well before you get people coming over to help you. I bring the dog in and out and have it sit out side while I go back in etcetc. The dog starts to feel neutral in these areas.

Plus how disciplined are the friends and do they know exactly what your trying to achieve. Over time they might understand and you can work with them. Better if the dog becomes acquainted with them before experimenting with them.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

The door is definitely the main trigger. ESPECIALLY the front door. Probably should work on desensitizing her to that then move on from there. Once she isn't so worked up about the door, I think the actual people won't be so bad. I can literally stand on the inside of the door and knock right in front of her, and she will go wild. Any knocking sound absolutely freaks her out.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Lex- I highly recommend reading the book "Excel-erated Learning" by Pam Reid. It's a great introduction to how dogs learn, how to teach them, and very useful reference when evaluating various training recommendations you may find on line.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Muskeg, thanks so much! I'll check it out.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> The door is definitely the main trigger. ESPECIALLY the front door. Probably should work on desensitizing her to that then move on from there. Once she isn't so worked up about the door, I think the actual people won't be so bad. I can literally stand on the inside of the door and knock right in front of her, and she will go wild. Any knocking sound absolutely freaks her out.


 Just to be "anal" ... the "Place Command" address exactly this situation also. 

The goal of place is to lower a dog's energy if your guy is hopping on the "otoman"for "Place" I'm not really sure how that is going to work, out??

Just saying.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I honestly have no idea why you think the ottoman wouldn't work like any other object.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The ottoman will work fine. Place means Place. Doesn't matter if it's a bed, crate, or piece of furniture. Put the value on it and they'll go to it.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thanks. We have been practicing door knocks this morning and she is doing well. I think she feels more secure if she has a little bit of elevation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's no different than teaching them to go to a platform, which we use for everything from a long down to protection training.

Put the value on the item and it will be fine, train it and proof it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I like the ottoman idea anyway because it's moveable, in that if you are going to have someone over, you can move the ottoman out of the way but still in the room and the dog can go to place there without getting in the way or feeling like he's the center of attention....

Ughh! I think I'm going to need a bigger ottoman:shocked:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

If it works for you* "go for it*" as for me, when I start to see "my guys" use "ottomans" on the work floor with dogs, I will change "my" position and pass it along.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

A work floor is a lot different than a house, though!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lexiz said:


> A work floor is a lot different than a house, though!


I'm not sure what you are responding to as I have several people on ignore so the comment could be about anything but let me just expand on this. 

I'm assuming a "work floor" would be a training room? 

So we use a platform for obedience and for protection work. That platform is only 6" off the ground. But the point of it is, go there and stay there until I tell you otherwise. They know not to come off the board. 

The theory to that board is exactly the same as to a dog bed or your ottoman. Exactly the same. Go there and stay there until I tell you otherwise. How you train it is exactly the same. Exactly the same.

If you want to know more, I"ll happily tell you how in a PM.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stay, means don't "move," "place" means don't "move" from that spot but your free to move "on it.". For "me" my front yard version of "Place" ... "On the Lawn" meant my dogs were free *to move around, the whole of the yard.* If I say "Stay" it means "Stay" in that *"position" and don't move.* They are "similar" but different.

Struddell, would freeze like a statue in position, I would not expect her to remain like that for two hours or more.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lexiz said:


> Thanks. We have been practicing door knocks this morning and she is doing well. I think she feels more secure if she has a little bit of elevation.


Yeah, a lot of dogs do like the being up on something, but the benefit for what your doing with the place command is that having edges makes a clear, defined place for her. No confusion about where you want her. A box, a mat, a platform, is just a little bit of a crutch and makes it easier to train.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

*



clear, defined place

Click to expand...

*
^^^^^^^


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, a lot of dogs do like the being up on something, but the benefit for what your doing with the place command is that having edges makes a clear, defined place for her. No confusion about where you want her. A box, a mat, a platform, is just a little bit of a crutch and makes it easier to train.


 "I did say if it works for you ..." and I guess a "clearly defined, elevated space" is subject to "interpretation" I've just not heard of it defined in "this" manner before. 

And for the record "Gus" was in a "home." Just saying.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder about the ottoman. If the dog is barking at people within your home, is it possible that the dog might _possess _the ottoman, and if someone walks by _her _ottoman, she may feel empowered to do something about it? 

When we elevate the dog's position physically, it can also give them a false sense of who they are. Resource guarding is a little different than what you have been experiencing, but I wouldn't want to give a youngster like this one anything more likely to become a guarded item.

Normally, these same dudes who are ignoring everything right now would be spewing off advice about NILIF. And dogs on furniture would be a definite no-no in that regime. Guess NILIF went out of fashion. I never liked it all that much anyway. But it can help people become better leaders, more consistent, and for some dogs, it helps them understand boundaries and consequences for actions, doing something desired to get anything desired. 

I like chips idea of a cot or throw rug, because no human is likely to think of sitting on such an item, like they may an ottoman, and it would be much easier to put in the car to the other house if necessary.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

We have two living rooms, a smaller one with a TV and a larger one with a 16 foot screen that we usually sit in. The ottoman is in the adjoining room that no one uses, so I would doubt that anyone would try to use it. Also, the other dogs lay on it and she doesn't seem to mind.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lexiz said:


> We have two living rooms, a smaller one with a TV and a larger one with a 16 foot screen that we usually sit in. The ottoman is in the adjoining room that no one uses, so I would doubt that anyone would try to use it. Also, the other dogs lay on it and she doesn't seem to mind.


 It sounds like it will work for you, if it is out of the way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lexiz said:


> We have two living rooms, a smaller one with a TV and a larger one with a 16 foot screen that we usually sit in. The ottoman is in the adjoining room that no one uses, so I would doubt that anyone would try to use it. Also, the other dogs lay on it and she doesn't seem to mind.


IMO, if you are using the ottoman as her place then there better not be another animal on it when you send her. And the only way to guarantee that is to teach all the dogs the same rules and give them their own spot so when you give the command all dogs go to their spots.

By teaching the command to go to a certain object, you have to build drive and desire for that object. If you build that drive, give the command and another animal is in the place you've taught her to go then 1 of 3 things is going to happen

1. You are going to have a dog fight because you've made it hers.
2. She is going to be confused and not know where to go so all your training is now bunk.
3. She's going to try to share that ottoman. And could possibly lead back to 1.

So teach all your dogs to go to different spots of the room.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Rut-Row.... good point Jax. Didn't think there were other animals in the house.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

It won't be a competition at all. She is the only one who fits on it now. The mastiff/Great Dane no longer can fit on the ottoman. He prefers the full length couch.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

How about a pic of your mastiff/Dane?Sounds awesome!Beauty and the Beast!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

lexiz said:


> It won't be a competition at all. She is the only one who fits on it now. The mastiff/Great Dane no longer can fit on the ottoman. He prefers the full length couch.


Good lord! I hope you never have to break up a squabble between the two of themlol


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Sawyer is our gentle giant! :wub: Vesper's best friend in the whole world.  








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These two love playing! Sweet dogs! :wub:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks for the pics!Sawyer has a great smile


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Thanks for the pics!Sawyer has a great smile


Thanks so much! He is the sweetest, most gentle guy. They love the snow so much!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nice pictures!


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## IronhorseRomo (Jul 20, 2015)

Great looking dogs!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My husband's cousin has a mastiff. Nicest dog ever!


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thanks all! I also appreciate all of the advice and healthy debate. I have an update on Vesper's behavior today...

We worked on the place command off and on today, I would practice opening and closing Vesper's "trigger doors" while she stayed on her place. I am going to college, and my brother lives with my husband and I. Today, my brother was bringing his friend over, but he failed to share that information with me. Luckily, his friend is a good sport and helped us with our training. First, as soon as I heard them coming in the door, I gave Vesper her "place" command. She immediately obeyed, and although she barked at them when they came in, she didn't leave her place and stopped barking quickly. I kept her there for a while as she acclimated to the environment. Then, I asked if the friend would slowly re-enter the room and not look at Vesper AT ALL. I also told him to retreat if she barked at all. He slowly went to walk past her without looking at her. Every time she glanced in his direction, I would give her a treat and tell her good girl. At this point, she was still on her place. NOT ONCE did she bark at him as he passed. My brother and the friend came into the room and we able to sit down without her barking. Again, whenever she would look at him calmly, I would say "good girl" and give her a treat. Eventually, when we started playing a board game, I released her from her place. She was an absolute angel. Laid down at my feet with her toy and didn't pay the friend a second thought! Amazing! Kept up the treats with her positive interactions with him. Then, after a while, she went right up to him and allowed him to pet her! The friend was awesome and didn't overwhelm her at all, which I am so grateful for. It was so wonderful and heartening to see a positive interaction between Vesper and a stranger. So happy!


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> My husband's cousin has a mastiff. Nicest dog ever!


They really are total sweethearts. I wouldn't mind having another in the future.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lexiz said:


> Thanks all! I also appreciate all of the advice and healthy debate. I have an update on Vesper's behavior today...
> 
> We worked on the place command off and on today, I would practice opening and closing Vesper's "trigger doors" while she stayed on her place. I am going to college, and my brother lives with my husband and I. Today, my brother was bringing his friend over, but he failed to share that information with me. Luckily, his friend is a good sport and helped us with our training. First, as soon as I heard them coming in the door, I gave Vesper her "place" command. She immediately obeyed, and although she barked at them when they came in, she didn't leave her place and stopped barking quickly. I kept her there for a while as she acclimated to the environment. Then, I asked if the friend would slowly re-enter the room and not look at Vesper AT ALL. I also told him to retreat if she barked at all. He slowly went to walk past her without looking at her. Every time she glanced in his direction, I would give her a treat and tell her good girl. At this point, she was still on her place. NOT ONCE did she bark at him as he passed. My brother and the friend came into the room and we able to sit down without her barking. Again, whenever she would look at him calmly, I would say "good girl" and give her a treat. Eventually, when we started playing a board game, I released her from her place. She was an absolute angel. Laid down at my feet with her toy and didn't pay the friend a second thought! Amazing! Kept up the treats with her positive interactions with him. Then, after a while, she went right up to him and allowed him to pet her! The friend was awesome and didn't overwhelm her at all, which I am so grateful for. It was so wonderful and heartening to see a positive interaction between Vesper and a stranger. So happy!


Excellent. Work on sending her from distances.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Excellent. Work on sending her from distances.


Yes, that is definitely the next step. Thanks!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your pup loves to learn, and is excited to do what you want. You'll have fun keeping ahead of her with things to work on and try.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

selzer said:


> Your pup loves to learn, and is excited to do what you want. You'll have fun keeping ahead of her with things to work on and try.


I work with her generally, but I have been SERIOUSLY working with her the last couple of days to hit our problems hard. She is so excited to learn! Our relationship has improved, which I didn't think was possible. She wants to be with me and listen to me all the time. I can see her starting to surrender control totally over to me, but it will be a long process. Today, when the guest was over, I could tell that she felt like I was in control, which I liked a lot. I have been working on myself too. I just keep telling myself that I'm confident, calm, and in control. Vesper is definitely picking up on that. So glad that I came to the forum and got some advice. I'll keep you all updated.

She has been adjusting to the prong well. Tomorrow we try our first fully-fledged prong walk. I got a hands free treat pouch so that I will have plenty of treats for the walk and counter-conditioning her to her triggers. It's going to be tough to work under threshold in less of a controlled environment, but I'm excited!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> Thanks all! I also appreciate all of the advice and healthy debate. I have an update on Vesper's behavior today...
> 
> We worked on the place command off and on today, I would practice opening and closing Vesper's "trigger doors" while she stayed on her place. I am going to college, and my brother lives with my husband and I. Today, my brother was bringing his friend over, but he failed to share that information with me. Luckily, his friend is a good sport and helped us with our training. First, as soon as I heard them coming in the door, I gave Vesper her "place" command. She immediately obeyed, and although she barked at them when they came in, she didn't leave her place and stopped barking quickly. I kept her there for a while as she acclimated to the environment. Then, I asked if the friend would slowly re-enter the room and not look at Vesper AT ALL. I also told him to retreat if she barked at all. He slowly went to walk past her without looking at her. Every time she glanced in his direction, I would give her a treat and tell her good girl. At this point, she was still on her place. NOT ONCE did she bark at him as he passed. My brother and the friend came into the room and we able to sit down without her barking. Again, whenever she would look at him calmly, I would say "good girl" and give her a treat. Eventually, when we started playing a board game, I released her from her place. She was an absolute angel. Laid down at my feet with her toy and didn't pay the friend a second thought! Amazing! Kept up the treats with her positive interactions with him. Then, after a while, she went right up to him and allowed him to pet her! The friend was awesome and didn't overwhelm her at all, which I am so grateful for. It was so wonderful and heartening to see a positive interaction between Vesper and a stranger. So happy!


 WOW well congratulations! It's been what 5 days or less?? How much time did you spend working with her?? I will say I'm impressed. :hug:


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Yes, we have just really started working in the last few days when I figured out what my plan was going to be. Tonight there are some people coming over for a study group. This should be more challenging, but hopefully it will go pretty well.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

UPDATE:








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We have been dealing with some pretty intense weather in this neck of the woods. However, that hasn't slowed down our progress at all. Vesper and I made a New Year's Resolution that we would walk every day, rain or shine. It's been a lot easier to keep up with this resolution after starting her on the prong collar. Before, when we would walk, she would pull so much that I was in danger of slipping on the ice. When she was reactive to a dog or person, slipping on the ice was almost inevitable. It was a bad deal for both of us. Now, the pulling is virtually nonexistent. Her reactive behaviors are starting to subside as well. We both feel much more comfortable when I am in control. Ha! Last night, we even went for a walk on my college's campus. She only barked at one person. It was a man in military uniform. She isn't fond of uniforms at all, especially if worn by men. Does anyone else have this experience with their dogs? Other than that, she did awesome. A lady jogged past us, probably 20-30 feet away, and she didn't bark at all. My new motto for walking is the "3 C's:" Calm, Confident, and in Control. So far, so good!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like you are on a good path.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's great to hear!


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Thanks, all. I know that in order for her to really become a well-trained dog, it's up to me to step up to my responsibilities as owner and trainer! To keep her mind stimulated, I've been teaching her little parlor tricks. Also, just took her to the gas station, and she didn't bark at anyone who walked beside our car. The problem was with me all along, it seems. I wasn't willing to accept that at first, but now I understand.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lexiz said:


> She only barked at one person. It was a man in military uniform. She isn't fond of uniforms at all, especially if worn by men. Does anyone else have this experience with their dogs? Other than that, she did awesome. A lady jogged past us, probably 20-30 feet away, and she didn't bark at all. My new motto for walking is the "3 C's:" Calm, Confident, and in Control. So far, so good!


nIf you have made "this" much progress and she's not randomly barking and acting crazy??

It should be relatively simple. A "slight bit of pressure "sideways" and tell her "No" and move on.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> nIf you have made "this" much progress and she's not randomly barking and acting crazy??
> 
> It should be relatively simple. A "slight bit of pressure "sideways" and tell her "No" and move on.


Thank you!!


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