# Thread about Eli



## jandr95 (Aug 6, 2011)

I'm having ongoing behavior issues with my GSD, Eli, and am debating using a shock collar to correct them, despite my overall dislike for the device. It's a complicated situation so bear with me and my lengthy explanation.

My wife and I adopted Eli one year ago from the county shelter. He was two, intact and probably had never been socialized. We were told he spent most of his life in a cage. We had him neutered, and I have been socializing him as much as my time allows but perhaps still not enough. The vet says he is in perfect health now, having gained about 20 much-needed pounds since we brought him home. Many things scare him -- dog gates, thunder and rainstorms, heavy winds, stairs, strangers -- and my wife. 

Yes, for whatever reason, he is quite scared of my wife. He will run away if she walks toward him and will even growl at her (at which point he gets a strong verbal rebuke from me). He will reluctantly let her put a leash on him and take him outside when I am not around, but he always seems fearful of her. It's been a year and nothing has changed.

When we got Eli, we already had two older dogs and he played too aggressively for their tastes. So we adopted a spayed Black Lab pup, Sophie, hoping they would bond. Sadly, the opposite seems to be happening. 

In the house, Eli randomly charges Sophie, barking aggressively, particularly if she gets up and moves. Disciplining him (vocally or even pinning him to the ground) does not seem to leave an impression.

At rare moments, however, they will play in the house ... a little tug-of-war or mock fighting. It gave me hope. But to my dismay, this seems to be occurring less and less. 

Outside, in our fenced corral, it's worse. While keeping them on leads, we have brought them together to see if they will play. Invariably, Eli's fur is up and he lunges at Sophie. Once, they got into a serious brawl and it seemed clear that Eli was going to lose (the now-adult Sophie's actually a scary good fighter). This made me wonder whether we should just let them go at it and establish a pecking order. But I'm fearful of what could happen. 

And here's the thing I don't get: Eli's fear of my wife and his aggressiveness with Sophie are both worse when I'm around. He will reluctantly obey her and be moderately less fearful if I'm not there. He is slightly less aggressive with Sophie when I'm not on the scene. 

We have consulted with two trainers -- both respected and knowledgeable professionals. The first one suggested a shock collar. The second one, a GSD trainer, was appalled and said you should never train a fearful GSD with a shock collar. 

I love this dog and will not give up on him, but I'm at a crossroads here and need to try something. Eli is becoming more aggressive with Sophie, and my wife is growing more frustrated. Should I resort to the shock collar to correct his aggressive behavior? Should I let he and Sophie fight it out until someone dominates (probably Sophie)? Or try yet another behaviorist?

Thanks for any advice you can offer.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

The 2nd trainer was correct. Using a collar may just elevate his aggression. There may come a time in his training where he can and it would help, but I don't think right at the beginning is the time.

It sounds like there is more then socialization issues going on. I'd say a behaviorist should be thought about.

If you will post where you are located, someone in your area may be able to recommend one.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Your fearful and uncertain German Shepherd needs to be trained with a totally different concept and philosophy. He needs patience and trust building training, not strong verbal rebukes and corections. 

Can you find a trainer in your area that can train you to train him (or train both of you and your wife) in ways to build trust and confidence? This could involve food treats, clicker training and lots of positive motivation techniques. Using a shock collar will be a disaster on this dog.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Agree with everyone else. My GSD has a prong and a remote/shock collar, so I don't have a problem with either, when used properly, they are great training tools. But your GSD needs a lot of positive-reinforcement training to build confidence and trust. Using a remote/shock collar on him is like beating someone up for having an anxiety attack. It will only escalate his discomfort level and make him more fearful. 

I would separate him from the other dogs, and do a lot of one-on-one training with him (with the help of a good motivational trainer). A good trainer will help Eli enjoy obedience work and want to interact with you/work for you.


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## jandr95 (Aug 6, 2011)

I am in northern Oakland County, MI, about 35 miles north of Detroit, if anyone knows a brilliant behaviorist or truly skilled trainer.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Go through this list. 
When you find one that says things like CLICKER and Positive reinforcement, then call them.
You need to relearn to communicate with this dog and also try to repair and build your trust relationship with him.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Oak..._pw.r_qf.&fp=4a9f891eb1c200d7&biw=906&bih=446


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## jandr95 (Aug 6, 2011)

Thank you all for your replies. I will either find a new behaviorist or return to the one I consulted previously (who said shock training would be the wrong thing to do) and see what he recommends. He had great credentials and owned several GSDs himself.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The Ecollar used with my methods is the perfect tool for a fear dog. But if you're thinking about hitting the button when she shows aggression towards your wife, forget it. You'll probably make the problem worse. This sounds like fear based aggression and you can't punish fear, as you've been trying to do with the pinning. 

Instead use the Ecollar to teach the dog the recall. Then have your wife work this protocol. It will teach her that your wife is a safe spot and that her mere presence brings comfort. 

Pushing treats down your dog's throat or using a clicker will not give your dog confidence. The Ecollar used with my methods will. Here's an article about a highly fearful dog that was rehabilitated with an Ecollar. http://www.loucastle.com/roma2

Here's the protocol for the recall. http://www.loucastle.com/recall


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting | Karen Pryor Clickertraining <-- for instance


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Actually, although I'm sure you're excellent w/e-collars, I beg to differ on the above statement you made.
> 
> A clicker will in fact give the dog _much_ confidence because it's doing things right. It's exciting and you often see dogs begin offering new behaviors even, because they are happy they are getting it right and not being punished.


Agreed. E-collars also require training to learn to use them correctly. E-collars are for specific instances/dogs, and on a sharp/shy dog that is fear aggressive you're setting yourself up for catastrophic results!! Not only do you need a trainer/behavioralist, you need one that has dealt SPECIFICALLY with sharp/shy GERMAN SHEPHERDS! I can't emphasize this enough. You may very well have to find another home for this guy. The other dogs are stressing him. Your wife's presence is stressing him. He's a time bomb waiting to go off from the sounds of things. An e-collar at this point could be what pushes him over the edge. Life should be all wine and roses when he's doing good things. He needs not only socialization, but with dogs that know boundaries and proper ways to act around unsure dogs. I'd suggest boarding with a behavioralist. 

Before I got more informed on what made a good breeder for these dogs, I got a male pup that was very frightened. I worked with him to build confidence. I had him evaluated by a GSD behavioralist. I was told after a few sessions that the safest course of action was to put him down. He'd end up attacking someone and I'd lose everything. We continued working with him. He was EXTREMELY sharp/shy and a fear biter. He was fine in the house with our other old beagle. He disliked strangers. My kids were elementary school age with one pre-schooler mixed in. The kids he was OK with. Until one evening, my daughter came downstairs after her bath with wet hair. This young dog/older pup ran at her... teeth bared and growling. I kept saying "It's Sxxxx!!!" (my daughter's name). At the last second, he put on the brakes, but he nearly took down my 7 year old daughter. I'd been told he had bad nerves, bad temperament, but I so wanted to "save" this boy. 

The trainer said there was just no way. She told me "you can work with and fix issues that are caused by events. You cannot fix bad genetics. He is a danger to everyone and should NOT be passed on to another family." Sadly, we felt we had to choice but to euthanize him. There are THOUSANDS of GSD's that this happens to every single year. This is why I absolutely believe that the US needs to grow a set and implement better laws on breeding of certain breeds (and certain animals). I later understood the term "BYB". Not just the definition, but the effects in real life. I have become "passionate" (the best word I have with staying in line with what you can and can't post here) about people who breed. Two dogs that *can* reproduce is a far cry from two dogs who *should* reproduce. This is why GSD's are on "restricted breed" lists at many places. It's NOT the breed itself. It's what happens when people thoughtlessly breed dogs who should NOT be bred. It destroys the TRUTH about 'who' GSD's are. They are not normally fearful, shy, "I will kill you!" dogs. They are good dogs, capable of making decisions. Including trying to communicate their needs and feelings on things to us silly humans. A 'normal' GSD will use the least amount of any 'negative' thing to get their point across. 

It's possible that your guy was abused or in some other way mentally injured by a female in the past. It's possible that he was injured by another dog at some point. What a dog like yours will typically look for is "Who is going to protect me and tell me what I should do?" It sounds like he's looking to you for that. One more thing... if you let your dogs "hash it out" you're going to end up with some expensive emergency vet bills AND your shepherd may be increasingly aggressive with other dogs. I would never encourage dogs in this situation to duke it out. Each time your female lab rolls over your male, he's losing more confidence. I don't know if your male can regain his confidence. There's no way to tell. He may be able to turn around and be a great dog. He may get better, but always have issues. He may get worse. A behavioralist should be able to give you some insight to this. My dog actually evacuated his anal glands on the floor...which the trainer said he did because he was expecting to die. She'd seen it before, but they always ended the same way. 

It was hard to hear. I didn't want to believe a word of it. However, when you watch a not yet adult dog run to attack your young child... it becomes clearer. I love this breed, but I am very on edge about the people who breed them because there are too many who are churning out dogs that end up like this. I am saddened by the sheer numbers of these dogs who end up PTS because breeders are allowed to run amok and give these majestic dogs a bad name. Have you had a GSD before? If not, save yourself the heartache, and the next time you get one go to a *good* breeder. Find someone who knows how to evaluate the breeder and the pups to go with you if possible. I know there are dogs in pounds that need help. Most of them need to go to established rescues who KNOW how to properly evaluate these guys and work with them on a dog by dog case. Then you can go to a rescue and get a dog where you're aware of its shortcomings as well as its strong points. I know some rescues make it nearly impossible to qualify for adoption, but there are some out there that are fair. 

IMO, the worst feeling in the world is to be so excited about doing some good by pulling a dog out of a shelter (especially one that was on your "most wanted" list) and then run into very tough situations like this. It's heart breaking. There's a lot of doubt, self blame, feelings of helplessness and being inadequate. There *is* help out there. However, you want to make sure it's the right kind of help. An improper evaluation of your dog isn't going to help anyone. I'm NOT euthanasia advocating. Not at all. There are other steps you have to take before even considering this. I'm just sharing my experience so you can see that the road *can* get very dark. I hope that something can be done for this guy. It may or may not involve finding a more suitable place for this guy. I feel bad that you're not able to experience this breed as it was truly meant to be. They are EXCEPTIONAL dogs who've had the unfortunate luck of being popular which brought out every person with an unaltered dog. There are many shelter dogs who turn out wonderfully. Personally, I would never get a GSD from a shelter directly. I'll leave that to the professionals. Please update and let me know what a behavioralist said about your dog. I will keep my fingers crossed that with the proper interventions, this guy can overcome his issues.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I rehabbed Basu (and Kai) using positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning. I did not use any compulsion with either dog. Basu went from being scared of everything and fear aggressive to people to being predictable in his behaviors. He was 4.5 when I adopted him and it took several years to get him anywhere near "normal." 

Compulsion wouldn't have worked with either Basu or Kai b/c they would simply shut down under that kind of pressure. 

It sounds like the OP has to work on his behavior/approach. This kind of dog needs a clear, confident, consistent and fair leader. I myself had to learn a completely new method of training when I adopted Basu and it took a lot of work on my part. 

And you might want to consider rehoming the lab and focusing your attention on the gsd.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am thinking that a number of approaches might be utilized. The effectiveness is highly dependant on the skill and ability of the trainer. I have used corrective type things,mpositive approaches etc. I have had some success with all and botched all of them also! 
The ability to be neutral, ability to read and understand a dog and the ability to apply a tool all make a huge difference!

Hopefully we will some day get over speaking against most training tools. They are all pretty viable in themselves depending on he situation and dog. The most important thing in the whole attempt to train or teach is the owner. There is no way to underestimate the importance of the human first and foremost in the equation of behavior modification.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

jandr95 said:


> I'm having ongoing behavior issues with my GSD, Eli, and am debating using a shock collar to correct them, despite my overall dislike for the device. It's a complicated situation so bear with me and my lengthy explanation.
> 
> My wife and I adopted Eli one year ago from the county shelter. He was two, intact and probably had never been socialized. We were told he spent most of his life in a cage. We had him neutered, and I have been socializing him as much as my time allows but perhaps still not enough. The vet says he is in perfect health now, having gained about 20 much-needed pounds since we brought him home. Many things scare him -- dog gates, thunder and rainstorms, heavy winds, stairs, strangers -- and my wife.
> 
> ...


Just getting back to the OP's post which has a lot going on in it. 

Much more than I would be able to figure out without seeing the behavior and having a few other people looking at it with me!

But there is a lot of force going on here. There is also a lot of love for your dogs. And I know when I get frustrated or things seem not to be working, I revert back to force. Like trying to force a piece of metal, it doesn't work as well though as softening the metal, and then trying to bend it. I am going to suggest softening and getting cooperation and not resistance. 

1. Are the old dogs safe?

2. I would look at completely crating/rotating and separating the 2 younger dogs for now - no contact. Also understand if you make a mistake and they get together it will probably be a lot of pent up GAH and a fight - so you have to do this smartly and well. We can help with that maybe. This is also a situation where rehoming her might not be a bad idea if done well. 

3. The wife...very interesting. There is a Yahoo group for scared dogs. Does she smoke? Just a weird thing I noticed at rescue meet/greets - some dogs did not like smokers. No idea...also, if anyone came who had an alcohol odor (yeah, it was a public place, let's go look at the doggies, Otis) that was also something that some of the dogs would actively avoid. Not saying this is the case, just tossing things out. _shy_-k9s : _shy_-k9s - Groups - _Yahoo_

4. Cooperation and relationship: Articles | Suzanne Clothier so many great articles to read. Working together as a team is the goal. Right now I see more of a stimulus response kind of thing and not a relationship. Finding a trainer who thinks in this style may help you make huge strides with this dog. Because all his resource stuff, all his behaviors are a dog trying to figure out how to do things that are so basic...that it is hard to go that far back, but that's what you have an old puppy. That is hard! 


So...I would look for a trainer more like the one in the link above #4 and try that out...it's all in your mind and that's where our greatest training tool is!

GOOD LUCK and let us know who you find to work with you in the real world!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A solid recall can solve many behavioral problems. If the dog is coming to you, he isn't attacking the other dog. He learns another behavior, it can give him a sense of power and control of the situation. While I would never bang him with an e-collar for aggression- ever ever ever- training a recall using Lou's methods is a good idea.

I also had problems with my dogs chasing game. They got a heck of a lot of pleasure out of it, more than any treat/toy/tug- and I have one very tug motivated dog. I also live in grizzly country. Sometimes a dog needs to obey. Period. 

An e-collar can be a humane way to train the recall. I have also seen the dark side of e-collar use, where e-collars were used in what I believe was an abusive manner. As I saw it, the dog was being shocked for an extended period of time without any idea of how to turn off the shock. 

Lou's methods teach the dog how to turn off the shock (at a very low level of shock), and therefore are not abusive or unfair to the dog. An e-collar is not a 'bigger stick' when used following Lou's method. I think it is the best way to teach a reliable recall. And I tried many different methods.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Actually, the clicker doesn't do a thing for the dog! The click is simply a "Marker" that tells the dog that something good is coming. (like using "YES" as a verbal marker!)
> 
> If you doubt this, then try training a dog with ONLY a clicker and no further reward (Treat or praise for example) and let us know how fast the training goes.


I think that a clicker can be better for some dogs as the human voice is sometimes not as consistent and can give different signals. I am thinking of trying the clicker with Gretta as she seems to turn into a noodle/nut when I praise her. I need to use a more moderate approach with her, and a loaded clicker might be the ticket. Only now, I have to figure out how to juggle the clicker and treats and leash. Pretty tough for people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. When the dog is good on the leash, I generally don't have to carry all kinds of crap. When the dog sucks on a leash, I almost always seem to have my hands full.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> more moderate approach with her, and a loaded clicker might be the ticket. Only now, I have to figure out how to juggle the clicker and treats and leash. Pretty tough for people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. When the dog is good on the leash, I generally don't have to carry all kinds of crap. When the dog sucks on a leash, I almost always seem to have my hands full.



Tie the leash around your waist (frees up your hands, and you won't be tempted to nag your dog with it).

Put the clicker on one of those coiled stretchy things around your wrist. 

Treats in your pocket or treat bag.

That's how we roll, LOL.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

To me, each dog is different and you need to know what is out there so that if you need it, there may be resources to pull from. I have seen it go both ways. 

Had a fear reactive dog who really responded well to correction and after two years of clicking / desensitization / attention etc. without much progress I had a 10 minute session with a police officer and worked with him correcting for breaking a command due to being distracted by another dog. He just needed to know I was in charge of the situation and would correct him if he did not comply. A correction worked well for him but all the warm fuzzies, abandonment training, clickers etc did nothing.

Another dog for whom a bark collar just made him misearable when he was not barking but marker training and praise for being quiet made all the difference in the world. He is not environmentally soft but for some reason the bark collar was not a good fit for him.

In my own mind, I would first consider the least "invasive" tools (such as marker training with positive reinforcement) but not dismiss other approaches outright even when they don't mesh with your philosophy. None of us is really inside that little doggy brain. I have done some low stim things and never felt like my dog was traumatized but I do personally tend to look at it more as a surgical tool than a training companion, at least for now. That said I think the ecollar saved my little critter chasing female's life because she was horrid but learned very quickly and did retain her training while NOT wearing the collar.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

What have the trainers suggested to build a better relationship between Eli and your wife? I'm familiar with the idea that all good things should come from that person - she should be feeding all the meals, etc. 

I also wonder if it would be better for your wife to stand up for herself when Eli growls at her, rather than having you defend her. I'd like to hear what a behaviorist has to say about that. I know from my own experience with other peoples' dogs: they've been more respectful of me when I am the one to tell them I don't like their behavior, rather than their owners.

Definitely don't let the dogs fight to work out their troubles. I had a thread asking the same thing, and not a single person thought that this was a good idea. I don't allow my dogs to fight, ever. 

I can't help you with the e-collar question because I've never used one before. I would really suggest not pinning Eli anymore though.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> Only now, I have to figure out how to juggle the clicker and treats and leash. Pretty tough for people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. When the dog is good on the leash, I generally don't have to carry all kinds of crap. When the dog sucks on a leash, I almost always seem to have my hands full.


Selzer, you don't have to use a clicker specifically. It's just a clear noise to act as a marker.. I snap my fingers as a marker. I've met people who click their tongue (hands free! ), used snapple bottle caps, jingled a bell.. Get creative! I like snapping my fingers because then I can train on-the-go. Don't have to worry about not having the clicker on me/losing it/accidentally clicking.. I loop the leash over my right wrist with dog on my left, treats in my left hand and my right hand ready to snap snap snap.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

to the OP...i do not have time to read through all five pages to see if someone has recommended brenda aloff, heaven on arf. she is in midland. i have used her, she is wonderful and very well respected throughout michigan. she will also come to your home but she is not inexpensive. 

your suggestion that you let your dogs fight it out totally blows me away. surely you are not serious about that. what a totally terrible idea. sorry. this is not establishing pack order it's just allowing your dogs to hurt each other. please do not do that under any circumstances.

call brenda.


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## jandr95 (Aug 6, 2011)

*Meanwhile, back at Eli...*

So it sounds like a fearful dog just needs a serious shot of confidence, yes? And it sounds like confidence comes from training him, making him think, work and "accomplish" things. Any theories as to why? Is work giving his brain something else to think about? Do dogs have self-esteems that need to be built up? Anyway, maybe if he's less fearful, he'll also be less aggressive toward the younger dog? I'll keep everyone apprised of the results.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jag said:


> I agree with this. Have you found most trainers to be honest about their methods if you ask them? I need to start making calls, and most websites for trainers don't outline their methods at all.


I looked at a lot of trainers and none of them had what I wanted in a trainer. Now I am traveling two hours to a trainer who is not only honest but she has those tools in the box that I was looking for. 

Not all trainers are honest, a lot of trainers are pet dog oriented and the akc obedience type is just not what I want either. It's not easy to find what you want but it is definitely out there.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> I looked at a lot of trainers and none of them had what I wanted in a trainer. Now I am traveling two hours to a trainer who is not only honest but she has those tools in the box that I was looking for.
> 
> Not all trainers are honest, a lot of trainers are pet dog oriented and the akc obedience type is just not what I want either. It's not easy to find what you want but it is definitely out there.


Thank you! I think I'm going to be doing some driving also, which isn't a problem. I'm also looking for a specific type of trainer which I don't think will be easy to find. Glad to know there are some good ones if you look hard, though!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Finding trainers:
*How to Choose a Dog Trainer*

*Dog Trainer Search*

*Finding Help - Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers*

http://www.peaceablepaws.com/referrals.php

Who has the behaviorist link?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I think the ecollar can, under appropriate conditions and properly used, be a good tool. I would NOT use it with a fearful dog.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

zyppi said:


> I think the ecollar can, under appropriate conditions and properly used, be a good tool. I would NOT use it with a fearful dog.


I think that the Ecollar is an excellent tool for use with a fearful dog. But the right method of using it has to be in play. Many people think of the Ecollar as just a tool to give the dog a correction when he's off leash and does not obey a command, but it's far more useful than just for that purpose. 

There are several advantages for using it with fearful dogs. One is that when used properly, the dog does not associate the stim with the handler. You'll probably hear from people who disagree, if so, it's a sign that they have not used the tool properly. As Steven Lindsay, author of the three volume set of books, _Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training _ says, Pg. 611-14,


> In practice, * dogs do not appear to link ES with the handler, especially persons with whom the dog is closely attached and familiar. * In fact, the most interesting uses of the collar depend on this lack of aversive association, including lasting reward and opponent safety effects. [Emphasis Added]


He adds


> Most scientific evidence supports the notion that the cessation of aversive ES in the context of escape/avoidance training is more *likely to enhance social attraction, promote feelings of safety, and calm a dog * rather than make a dog afraid or apprehensive. ... competent * electronic training may actually promote social attachment, reward, and safety, With the behavior- contingent cessation or avoidance of ES, dogs experience immediate emotional relief that subsequently merges into a state of progressive relaxation * incompatible with social aversion and fear.
> 
> The preponderance of scientific evidence suggests that ES escape/avoidance and pain reduction should promote long-term effects that are incompatible with fear and stress, making the trainer an object of significant extrinsic reward that actually * enhances the dog's welfare via an improved capacity for social coping, learning, and adaptation. * [Emphasis Added]


The stim level, using the right tool (I recommend an Ecollar that has at least 100 levels) can be set to the lowest level that the dog can feel, so the dog is kept calm and not made fearful. 

Using the Ecollar together with gentle guidance with the leash (and hands for some movements) the dog quickly learns what the stim means and how to shut it off. This builds confidence in the dog, something that can only benefit a fearful dog. 

But if it's used only as a correction device, the only way that some seem to know how to use it, it can cause problems with a fearful dog. 

JeanKBBMMMAAN thanks for restarting this thread.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yeah, when I grabbed posts - a lot of really good information when we focus on the dog and the OP!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

OP, I hope you don't mind me using this thread to ask a question:

What is the difference between the ecollar that is the topic of this thread (used as a training tool) and the electric fence collar? Sorry if that's a stupid question, but I've never used either device so I have no idea how they operate...but from my ignorant standpoint, I assume they are the same principle. Maybe they're totally different, but since they seem the same to me, I was always wondering why so many people have a hatred for the ecollar yet the electric fence is seen as a good thing. Thanks to anyone who can clear this up for me.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am pretty sure the shock given by the fence collar (and also a bark collar) are significant. 

I have put on ecollar on my own neck (under my ears even where the skin is most sensitive as well as in the crook of my elbow) at my dog's setting per Lou's technique and get only a mild tingling sensation...not anywhere near as significant as shorting out a 9 volt battery, certainly not as much as a static "doorknob zap" in winter..

When I consider how dogs can hang off of each others necks and accept some pretty significant collar corrections it does make you wonder why it is so effective.

For other techniques using the collar as correction, folks crank it up very high.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Blanketback said:


> What is the difference between the ecollar that is the topic of this thread (used as a training tool) and the electric fence collar?


The main difference is how they are activated. An electric fence (also referred to as an IF [invisible fence]) is activated when a dog approaches a wire that the homeowner has buried in the ground. That wire is connected to a device that "energizes" it. When the dog approaches, most models give the dog a warning signal and if he continues, an electrical stimulation. The perimeter of the wire should be marked with flags that the dog is trained to avoid. He should also be trained that when the warning activates, that if he moves away from the flags, he does not get stimed. 

An Ecollar is activated by the trainer/owner pressing a button on a handheld transmitter that's part of the system. When this happen the dog is given an electrical stim. 

With both devices the stim levels are adjustable, although usually the Ecollar has more and lower levels. The IF is used to contain a dog, the Ecollar is used for training purposes. 

I'm not a fan of IF's. Sometimes a dog will go into drive and then his tolerance to pain is greatly lowered. He can chase a cat, squirrel, etc., right through the discomfort that the fence imposes. But now, that his drive had fallen off, he can't get home. They also don't keep other animals out. 

I am a fan of the Ecollar. Used properly, it's a very humane and effective training device. I advocate using very low levels of stim, where the dog can first perceive it for the basic training. 

I don't know how some people can say that the Ecollar is cruel but the IF is acceptable. They both work by delivering electrical stim to the dog, the only significant difference is how they're activated.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> I am pretty sure the shock given by the fence collar (and also a bark collar) are significant.


They can be. Usually neither device has the number of levels that a (training) Ecollar has, and so they tend to have higher levels. They are also used only for aversion training, (getting the dog to stop, or to not do something) where stim levels tend to be higher.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> I don't know how some people can say that the Ecollar is cruel but the IF is acceptable. They both work by delivering electrical stim to the dog, the only significant difference is how they're activated.


Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. That's what I always thought in the back of my mind, but without the benefit of experience with either product.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just to be clear, I don't think if used properly, e-collars are "cruel". My objection was attempting to use one on a fearful dog, who has already failed because of physical corrections. 
I think everyone ought to give positive reinforcement a chance before rushing to other methods of training, and I am entitled to that belief.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ecollars can be used as positive reinforcement. I had the pleasure of training with an Ecollar instructor who had learned under Lou Castle among others. I was intrigued because he had puppy obedience classes(4months to 6months), using the Ecollar. I actually enrolled my puppy at the time. There were about 12 pups in the class of all breeds but maybe 4were GS along with mine. I was amazed with the scope of positive things done with these pups on low level stim. The pups were not corrected but looked forward to the tactile stimulation from the stim and it was used has a marker. It was amazing, he also had older clients using the Ecollar for advanced training that you cannot use a leash in and in talking with these bpeople they all talked about how their dog at home when told we are going training would go to get their remote collar, tail waggin, ready to go. None of these dogs required a leash or hollering commands by owner, and all of their body language was positively happy and no sign of stress(and I KNOW stress) whatsoever.
This completely expanded my understanding and scope of the uses of the collar from some of the primitive ways I have seen the collar used in the past, mostly only for corrective measures. (of course I remember when 90 percent of pet people thought a pinch collar was the cruelest tool ever created...lol...now everyone uses one since they have been educated on proper use and the myths debunked)
I am sure if Lou Castle says this can be very effective, that it can. I am not telling the OP which advice to follow from the many posts, but some of the advice given to dissuade people about certain tools is not based in full knowledge of the scope and uses of the tool. Tools don't inflict negative consequences on dogs, the handlers application of the tool does.
The Ecollar may well work in this case if done with skilled application, just like any other solutions suggested here.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Could be that Lou's Method is awesome. But he/she shouldn't discredit other methods and call his/her method the only one that works. That is simply not the truth and discredits him/herself as a trainer. 

A trainer should always be open minded and it should always be about the dog and not about the method... if it is a successful method than it becomes a product, so the product has to be sold, only problem is that in the process, people become kennel blind and all they see is their own product but that doesn't necessarily help the dog. 

Maybe, before we talk about what method works for that dog, look at that dog personally. Also, don't let people just read a piece of paper and than handle the e-collar themselves because you still don't know what you are doing, just from reading a piece of papers. It actually takes a knowledgeable person to be there and to TRAIN THE HANDLER. 

A trainer saying "Oh just read this or that blog and you'll be fine." doesn't help the handler either because it won't fix the problems he is running into while using the collar.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree Mrs K, that any tool used; should have somebody show you how to use it effectively. I just get tired of people passing judgement on things they do not or have not used extensively enough to know the capabilties. There is a difference in giving a dissenting opinion on things you know,(because there are many ways to successfully train a dog), and to negatively assess a tool when the nature of your negative assessment clearly shows you have limited knowledge of its uses. That how most of the myths are created about tools, dogs, and people. 
@ OP....clearly you have a difficult task ahead of you....get some professional help in whichever way you attempt to rehabilitate the dog, and good luck!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> But he/she shouldn't discredit other methods and call his/her method the only one that works. That is simply not the truth and discredits him/herself as a trainer.


My problem with e-collars is maybe 1% (probably less) of the dog owning world has any idea how to do what Lou describes. I'm certainly never going to recommend one due to that.
It's like choke chains or any other tool. 
Yesterday, at a large adoption event, I watched a rescue group whom I shall not name, nobody would know them anyway, yank a Shep mix around yesterday until that dog probably has permanent damage to it's trachea. She even hung it at one point, by the choke chain and traffic lead attached. 
And then when the dog kept aggressing (they taught the dog nothing by yanking on it, other than seeing other dogs is very unpleasant) the teen girl grabbed it like you would do a calf you are about to brand, and threw it down and knelt on it, grinding her knee into the dog's hip. The dog was snapping, snarling, etc., and I am amazed she did not get bitten. People intervened at that point and were disgusted beyond belief at the humans' behavior towards this dog! And it's a _rescue_! 

When you think about all the dog owners who really have no clue how to use certain tools, abuse them, and then there's no trainers around to show them (very remote area, training-wise) you just get to the point where you say "clickers are best".


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I never saw where Lou Castle said his way is the only way. 
Even in all the deleted stuff.

Seems to me he is just trying to dispel myths about e-collars.

I don't know Lou and have personally never used an e-collar but I'm not going to close my mind based on what I think were observations of people who did not know what they were doing.

I hope to see the use of an e-collar demonstrated someday so I can make up my own mind.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> I never saw where Lou Castle said his way is the only way.
> Even in all the deleted stuff.
> 
> Seems to me he is just trying to dispel myths about e-collars.
> ...


Lou said that a clicker can't give a dog confidence whereas his/her way can. Not true at all. A clicker can give a dog confidence just like an e-collar can. You can use the e-collar as a marker, just like a clicker or a voice can be a marker.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Lou said that a clicker can't give a dog confidence whereas his/her way can. Not true at all. A clicker can give a dog confidence just like an e-collar can. You can use the e-collar as a marker, just like a clicker or a voice can be a marker.


:thumbup:


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> My problem with e-collars is maybe 1% (probably less) of the dog owning world has any idea how to do what Lou describes. I'm certainly never going to recommend one due to that.


But would you recommend an instructor qualified in the appropriate use of the e-collar? 
Sheilah


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Lou said that a clicker can't give a dog confidence whereas his/her way can. Not true at all. A clicker can give a dog confidence just like an e-collar can. You can use the e-collar as a marker, just like a clicker or a voice can be a marker.


Well I'm sure Lou can explain himself exactly what he means.

However clickers and e-collars don't give dogs confidence since they are just markers. 

Dogs gain confidence from training. 

As we all know there are many ways to train.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

sit said:


> But would you recommend an instructor qualified in the appropriate use of the e-collar?
> Sheilah


Question wasn't for me but personally, I would do so in a heartbeat. 

My trainer was recommended to me by somebody on this forum. I was told that not everyone can work with her because of her being so darn straight forward and honest but that she is one of the best and that I'd just have to see how I get along with her. 

If I think that the trainer knows what he/she is doing and it is a fit for the handlers personality (very very important) I would suggest a trainer. I don't like trainers that only use positive or only use compulsion and have no regards for other methods. To me Balance is important so I'm always looking for balanced trainers that know when to use pressure and when not to use pressure. As much as I don't like putting pressure on a dog, sometimes it is necessary. 

Like last Tuesday (not Monday, Monday was obedience) for example. One of my girls hasn't worked during the Schutzhund Session at the Weekend prior. She was in the car, laying in her crate and got all the excitement so she built up frustration and when she finally got to do a little bitework on monday she was completely out of control. Screaming from the top of her lungs, not calming down at all, not responding to anything I said. She completely zoned me out. On top of that, my other girl broke out of her crate, despite all the crate games we did. She went completely berserk and broke out of the crate that was secured with straps. 

That was the point where the helper was like "Ok. You have to do this, this and that, you are more than capable of getting your dogs under control and this can't happen, we have lifestock here." 
It was crazy, completely crazy. I handed the dog over to the helper and got the other one back into the crate. Once we were done, the other girl did not want to go back in. She completely refused to get into the crate. It took the both of us to load her because all she had on her mind was the stupid bite pillow. I apologized like a hundred times because something like that is unacceptable. I can't believe that MY dogs with ALL THAT TRAINING, behaved like that. It's like something exploded on tuesday and it wasn't good. 

I was completely mindboggled about the behavior of my dogs that day. Something like that never happened before it was like both of them were completely out of their mind and forgot every single second of training they had. **** happens but that is why you need trainers that are balanced that know when to stop "playing" around with a method because at some point you have got to put pressure on the dog, especially when they are in a certain state of mind where nothing gets through to them and I'm not talking about "Beating/Zapping the crap out of the dog".... 

I'm still hesitant of using an e-collar simply because of what I've seen growing up in the "business" and I've seen a lot of misuse. It takes time to overcome that but with the right trainers I am willed to try it. And that is another important thing to me. I want a trainer that is straight forward and honest but also has enough people skill to actually work through the "fear of e-collars" with me, showing how it's done the right way and not just tell me "Oh, this is Schutzhund, you must use an e-collar or otherwise you don't belong in the sport" like one person at a club told me. 

That's another thing, if you don't trust your trainer than it's not the right trainer...if you don't feel secure enough with your trainer, it's not the right trainer and if it's not the right trainer, don't suggest them to others.

ps: I know I probably shouldn't share this, but you know what... not everything is roses and fairies. Not every day is a good day and dogs are not machines and robots either. There will always be days where things go not like they are supposed to go. So if you have issues with your dog, don't default. WE ALL HAVE OUR ISSUES! NONE OF US IS PERFECT, NONE OF US HAS THE PERFECT DOG, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE PERFECT TRAINER EITHER. WE ARE ALL LIVING CREATURES AND THAT MEANS, WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES, EVEN THE MOST EXPERIENCED TRAINER MAKES MISTAKES!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Question wasn't for me but personally, I would do so in a heartbeat.


I would too. We have a very skilled e-collar trainer here in my area and I have seen how effective she is. 

I would never recommend to Joe Blow down the street that he go out to Petsmart and buy the first e-collar he finds on the shelf and start using it on his dog in the parking lot. But it can be a very effective training tool when it is used with skill and timing. 

Like any tool, it is only as good as the user. I have seen flat buckle collars and a bag full of treats misused.
Sheilah


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Regardless of how any of us feel, I think negative assessments based on limited knowledge are counterproductive. There is a difference in going to a person that uses an ecollar and going to someone who teaches proper use of one as a means of introduction to its use. I saw a thread on here a couple years ago when many of the experts were blasting anyone for using an ecollar on a puppy in training. Obviously, they had seen people inappropriately "fry" some poor dog and that through their limited exposure made using this tool with a puppy an abomination. Well they are wrong!!! It can and is being done and its growing all the time. Wouldn't it be better to not negatively weigh in on something that you have limited knowledge about? Does that make any sense? You never see me advise people on rescues because I dont know anything about them....but I do have enough sense to know I dont know and leave the subject matter alone or say something nuetral. 
This is not directed at any one person, but rather at behavoirs that people practice on the internet. Unfortunately, many people take what they read on internet as gospel, so it behooves us to not give them BYI(backyard information), no matter how well intentioned it may be. 
At the end of the day I think that all of us want to help this poster get a handle on this situation, hopefully we have!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

byi, that's a good, can i steal it? now back to the good info...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Wouldn't it be better to not negatively weigh in on something that you have limited knowledge about? Does that make any sense?


Um. If you're talking to me, that's fine - but I am allowed my opinion all the same.
And since you're lecturing, move on and lecture to the e-collar expert to not knock clickers and Positive reinforcement, okay?  

Yes I'd recommend a very experienced trainer, but not in our area because I already know the answer and the answer is, there is nobody to do that type training. 

Furthermore, the people to whom I've spoken about e-collars recommend "shocking the doo doo" out of dogs as a deterrent/diversion, and those are people supposedly experienced in the use of them.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sigh, yes everyone IS entitled to their opinion. If a person had talked to a few people about breeding and got one sided information(because contrary to what people told you there are many many people using the ecollars productively) and then started advising people on breeding.....I could hear some of you right away. 
I really didn't hear anyone knock clickers or treats, just that they didn't build confidence. I think the primary purpose of those two items as training tools for dogs is not being disputed, unless I missed something.
Either way we can agree to see this from different perspectives.....cool?, I'm willing to support any approach that will help educate and inform people about the breed and training.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Clickers do actually build confidence...and stating they don't as a "fact", is false. 
I can, at least, say e-collars have their place, my opinion is they may not work in fear aggression cases. 
I _know_ they wouldn't, as the OP had intended to use one, or what he was originally asking about, so that's why I stated what I did (originally).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I definitely agree with you that the way the OP planned to go about the Ecollar was probably not the right way. I think that's why some of us recommended going to an Ecollar instructor if they wanted to go that route. 
But when I see when of the foremost experts in the country clearly state it could and he has rehabilitated dogs using this tool, I'm personally not going to dispute him with my limited knowledge of the tool.....but that's me and I realize everyone sees things differently


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I definitely agree with you that the way the OP planned to go about the Ecollar was probably not the right way. I think that's why some of us recommended going to an Ecollar instructor if they wanted to go that route.
> But when I see when of the foremost experts in the country clearly state it could and he has rehabilitated dogs using this tool, I'm personally not going to dispute him with my limited knowledge of the tool.....but that's me and I realize everyone sees things differently


Nobody is disputing him and not everyone knows who Lou Castle is. I didn't know who it was and the way he was talking sounded like he wasn't very openminded to other techniques and when he truly is one of the top experts in the country than I do expect an open mind. Nobody disputes the fact that the dog could be rehabilitated with the e-collar at all. 

However, it's nice to get a personal experience from somebody as knowledgeable as you.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Could be that Lou's Method is awesome. But he/she shouldn't discredit other methods and call his/her method the only one that works. That is simply not the truth and discredits him/herself as a trainer.


I've NEVER said that my method is _"the only one that works."_ I really wish that you folks would please stop saying this. 



Mrs.K said:


> Maybe, before we talk about what method works for that dog, look at that dog personally.


Not really practical, given this medium and the fact that there are people here from all over the world. 



Mrs.K said:


> Also, don't let people just read a piece of paper and than handle the e-collar themselves because you still don't know what you are doing, just from reading a piece of papers. It actually takes a knowledgeable person to be there and to TRAIN THE HANDLER.


There are many ways to learn to do something. Most people probably learn best with a trainer at their elbow. But I know many people who "choke" under this pressure and can't perform at all. Many can learn from watching a video, many from reading a book/other written forms of the word.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> My problem with e-collars is maybe 1% (probably less) of the dog owning world has any idea how to do what Lou describes. I'm certainly never going to recommend one due to that.


Most people can learn to do something by reading about it. Some things don't lend themselves well to this, learning to fly an airplane, where the feelings of the various things that a plane can do need to be felt and the penalty for making a series of errors is death, would be among them. But leaning to fix a motorcycle, build a model boat, sew an outfit, or learn to use an Ecollar are certainly among them. Hundreds of people have read my articles and then trained their dogs to their complete satisfaction. When they started, some of them wouldn't recognize an Ecollar if they were shown one. 



Mrs.K said:


> It's like choke chains or any other tool.


Not really. Those tools require that the trainer have some degree of athletic ability, eye-hand coordination and balance. Those tools can also cause physical injuries. The Ecollar, used with my methods, requires none of these and they can't cause injuries by the current they produce. 



Mrs.K said:


> Yesterday, at a large adoption event, I watched a rescue group whom I shall not name, nobody would know them anyway, yank a Shep mix around yesterday until that dog probably has permanent damage to it's trachea. She even hung it at one point, by the choke chain and traffic lead attached.


Why do people bring up these sort of things in discussion about Ecollars? They have nothing to do with the discussion, nothing to do with the tool and nothing to do with the OP's questions. Yet we see them in Ecollar discussion all the time! Is this an attempt to make Ecollars look bad with "guilt by association?"


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> I never saw where Lou Castle said his way is the only way.
> Even in all the deleted stuff.
> 
> Seems to me he is just trying to dispel myths about e-collars.


Thanks JD. Somebody can read these threads and see what's really going on here. 



Jack's Dad said:


> I hope to see the use of an e-collar demonstrated someday so I can make up my own mind.


Where in California are you located JD? I'm on Los Angeles. If you're nearby I'll be happy to show you some work. I'll be in San Jose, in the middle of next month and in Barstow in October if you're in those neighborhoods. PM reply is fine.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Lou said that a clicker can't give a dog confidence whereas his/her way can. Not true at all. A clicker can give a dog confidence just like an e-collar can. You can use the e-collar as a marker, just like a clicker or a voice can be a marker.


We have a difference of opinion as to the clicker giving confidence. I've used them for decades and have yet to see such a result. They're great for teaching tricks or other behaviors, until distractions come along. Then, unless one puts in great amounts of time AND is quite talented, it goes out the window.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Um. If you're talking to me, that's fine - but I am allowed my opinion all the same.


This statement of someone being _"allowed [to have their own] opinion"_ deserves some examination. Yes, people are allowed to hold all sorts of crazy opinions, including such things as thinking that the earth is flat and that if you "step on a crack, you'll break your mother's back." People are entitled to be as looneytoons as they want to be. But if they expect to influence others, then it's best if their opinions are based on something besides lunacy or ignorance. It's best if those opinion are based on education, experience or training, or if possible, all three. If any of these are limited, It affects how other should regard those opinions. 



msvette2u said:


> And since you're lecturing, move on and lecture to the e-collar expert to not knock clickers and Positive reinforcement, okay?


And here is an excellent example. I've been using clickers for about 20 years. I've been using +R for over 30. I know when they work, what they work for, when they don't work and what they don't work well for. Therefore I think that my opinion on them should service to influence others. I don't think that the opinions of some here on Ecollars should influence ANYONE. 



msvette2u said:


> Furthermore, the people to whom I've spoken about e-collars recommend "shocking the doo doo" out of dogs as a deterrent/diversion, and those are people supposedly experienced in the use of them.


You haven't heard me, or anyone else in this discussion make such a suggestion, so this comment is a diversion from the conversation and the advice that IS actually being given. I specifically warn against doing this in discussions about treating aggression, on my website.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Clickers do actually build confidence...and stating they don't as a "fact", is false.


There are few _"facts"_ in these discussions. I stated my opinion based on decades of using the tool. You have based your opinion on Ecollars on emotion, seeing and listening to people who have used the tool improperly and, I'd guess, very little hands on experience, education or training on them. Please correct me if I've gotten this last part wrong. 



msvette2u said:


> I can, at least, say e-collars have their place, my opinion is they may not work in fear aggression cases.
> I _know_ they wouldn't, as the OP had intended to use one, or what he was originally asking about, so that's why I stated what I did (originally).


Thanks for your opinion that Ecollars _"may not work in fear aggression cases."_ The experience of Roma and Simon, (click the links to read the details) combined with the dozens of aggressive dogs I've rehabilitated with the Ecollar, put your opinions to rest. I've never had it fail to give impressive results. Both dogs mentioned were highly fearful. Both dogs were rehabilitated in a very short time with Ecollars. One of them by me and another by someone who, contrary to the opinions of those who say that one needs to have a trainer at hand, to learn to use one, learned how to work the protocols ON THE PHONE!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> ... not everyone knows who Lou Castle is.


Well we gotta get busy and change that. LOL. 



Mrs.K said:


> I didn't know who it was and the way he was talking sounded like he wasn't very openminded to other techniques and when he truly is one of the top experts in the country than I do expect an open mind.


I've never like being called an _"expert,"_ much less _"one of the top experts in the country,"_ I just know a few things. Thanks to cliffson1 for the very kind words. 



Mrs.K said:


> Nobody disputes the fact that the dog could be rehabilitated with the e-collar at all.


I think that some do. Some have strongly recommended against using an Ecollar on a fearful dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> Well we gotta get busy and change that. LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that most (I could be wrong) advise against it only because they feel that the handler wouldn't know how to handle it. Personally I'd advise to find a good trainer that knows a few things (  ) and get working.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mrs K, my last comment on this, if Lou is one of the premier experts (and he is), on using this tool, and people have no clue who he is; do you really think these people probably have enough knowledge to assess whether the tool would work much less negatively assess it? I read Lou's post and I read some of the other posts on the tool and it's uses, and it's pretty obvious to me who's giving educated opinions that can be useful and who's just spouting out something they really know very little about.( and again my original posts was not geared to one person as I read other posts about and in reference to the Ecollar that was from people who clearly had little knowledge or experience with the tool).
People try to cloud this issue by stating they shouldn't be deprived of their opinions. Nobody is trying to deprive anyone of public expression, what I am seeking is people being more responsible about their opinions so that good strong information can be shared.anyone is entitled to open up a thread and express any opinion they want, I truly believe that, but when people come on a forum seeking help for situation, or an assessment of a kennel, or a breeding question; I just feel that it is responsible to be more knowledgable than somebody told me or I saw three times, of the subject matter, before you give them direction. If there is something fundamentally flawed in that thinking, then time has definitely passed me by.....lol


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My 2 cents, and I don't know lou, but I've read alot of his info, and I know "of" lou

If anyone wants any type of training/dog, go to those who have been there done that.

You want to try e collar, go to someone who's experienced at it, watch their training, see their results and go from there.

You want to do competition obedience or competition "anything" again, go see how they are training and their results.

For example, why would anyone who wanted to compete in agility, go to an instructor who's never 'competed' in agility??? I see it ALOT

If you haven't "been there done that", it leaves little credibility with me.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Hey everyone - here is a question I would ask myself before posting on this thread - is my response about the OP and Eli, or could I possibly start a new thread about this subject so that the OP can REFER to that thread for further info, but post updates and get more feedback on Eli here?

Not trying to deprive anyone of anything either, just trying to make this work better for this dog. 

That's the guideline I would use, to help the dog, and am hoping that people will attempt to do the same.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Diane ......Thanks, 
I agree with Jean also and I am guilty often of what Jean is requesting....I will definitely strive to do better because you make a good point that leads to helping posters!


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Hey everyone - here is a question I would ask myself before posting on this thread - is my response about the OP and Eli, or could I possibly start a new thread about this subject so that the OP can REFER to that thread for further info, but post updates and get more feedback on Eli here?
> 
> Not trying to deprive anyone of anything either, just trying to make this work better for this dog.
> 
> That's the guideline I would use, to help the dog, and am hoping that people will attempt to do the same.


A thread was locked & then re-worked, ostensably for the OP. This "new, re-worded" thread takes it's place. It is the same as the last - an on-going fight over ecollar vs no ecollar. Anyone see that the OP has not returned?

I am guilty for speaking my mind. But, do you not see that there is NO help to the OP with the problems with his dog?

The use - or lack thereof - of an ecollar. This will ALWAYS be a discussion/argument. Instead of throwing it to 1 side, I'd suggest to the Powers That Be, that it made a "sticky" on the forum, whereby we could all share our thoughts. In the meantime, this discussion does no good for the OP & Eli.

If the OP doesn't return, I'd understand. The exact same thing has happened to me with our Ziva problems. Rather than acquire help, all I got was goobledegoop. On another forum. So I returned here - looking for answers &/or direction. Not to be - some continue to fight over the rights/wrongs of the ecollar. Powers That Be delete & rebuild the thread to their own liking. In the meantime, dogs like Eli & Ziva go without help - I thought that's why you guys were here - to help - not to fight like little kids.

To the OP - if you're still there - please don't give up on Eli because of what you see here (provided you could even find your way to this new thread). I certainly haven't given up on my Ziva because of this banter. I think you & I are in the same boat. Our dogs were adopted & we found there were problems. Neither of us is willing to give up. I will do my best to research EVERYTHING out there, pro & anti ecollar, as well as other training methods.

There has GOT to be unbiased info out there that can help.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Most people are not anti-e-collar. Most people say: "If you do want to use an e-collar, find a trainer that can teach you how to do it right."


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Most people are not anti-e-collar. Most people say: "If you do want to use an e-collar, find a trainer that can teach you how to do it right."


 
*Absolutely correct! Powerful weapon for training BUT you have to know how to use such a weapon!*


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I think that most (I could be wrong) advise against it only because they feel that the handler wouldn't know how to handle it. Personally I'd advise to find a good trainer that knows a few things (  ) and get working.


It's very possible, in fact more likely than not, that you're correct that the handler (in this case the OP) would not know how to handle the Ecollar for this problem. That's why I put up my website. The articles are written in a how−to fashion so that anyone who can read and follow instructions can use them to teach the basic and simple movement of basic OB. 

Hundreds of people who have never before used an Ecollar, have done so. Over the years I've gotten emails from them. Some of them are so supportive of me and/or the Ecollar that I've put them on the site so that people who are interested in learning to use the tool can see the success that others like them, have achieved. 

The tool, used with my methods is surprisingly easy to use. If someone can tap their foot and clap their hands at the same time, they have good enough timing to use an Ecollar. OTOH, the clicker, the other tool that folks are recommending, takes excellent timing, something that few people have, if it's to be successful. Timing is actually more important with a clicker than with an Ecollar used conventionally. 

If you're three seconds behind your dog with a clicker you'll be marking the wrong behavior. He'll be on to some new behavior and THAT'S what you'll be marking. It's not *just *that it's ineffective, you'll be teaching the dog the *wrong thing. * The reason that a clicker is used, rather than just saying "good dog," is that it marks the *precise *moment in time that the dog is "right." If that moment is three seconds too late, not only will he not learn what is desired but he will learn the wrong thing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I would agree with you if we were talking about a normal dog without issues. 

But you can't expect people, who don't know how to read a dog, to go onto an internet website, read up on material to properly work a dog. You may be very knowledgable but that is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when you deal with aggression. 

90% of the people have no idea what the trigger is, why the dog really reacts the way he does, they don't know how to read the dogs body language and you expect them to read up on your blog, slap an e-collar on and fix the problem? 

Just like that? 

With a normal dog, yes. With this dog, I do NOT recommend it doing on your own if you don't know what the issue is in the first place. Go and get a professional involved.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> But you can't expect people, who don't know how to read a dog, to go onto an internet website, read up on material to properly work a dog. You may be very knowledgable but that is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when you deal with aggression.


:thumbup:

It is my experience that people simply do not realize dogs are speaking - loudly - with their behaviors. 
If people could read dog body language, nobody would be bitten!
Yet look at how many bites occur daily.



> It's not just that it's ineffective, you'll be teaching the dog the wrong thing.


Ah c'mon - people aren't that stupid. 
I agree it's got to be split second timing but clicking is not the problem, maybe clicking at the wrong moment will occur...but the fact folks sought out clicker training, period, is a plus, it means they realize dogs can communicate and are willing to work with that to learn more. And poor timing can be worked with easily enough. 
Classes for clickers work wonders, too.

I'd agree with Mrs. K. Nobody should learn e-collars from a webpage because the margin for error is much greater than accidentally teaching your dog to stand up rather than to sit. A semi-intelligent person can figure out they clicked the wrong thing and fix it


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> If you're three seconds behind your dog with a clicker you'll be marking the wrong behavior. He'll be on to some new behavior and THAT'S what you'll be marking. It's not *just *that it's ineffective, you'll be teaching the dog the *wrong thing. * The reason that a clicker is used, rather than just saying "good dog," is that it marks the *precise *moment in time that the dog is "right." If that moment is three seconds too late, not only will he not learn what is desired but he will learn the wrong thing


.

The way you have described the e-collar is that you use it as a marker. A clicker is just that, a marker. 

Both tools are used to mark behaviors in one or another way. So how comes that one can use the clicker and mark the wrong behavior but they can't possibly do that with the e-collar? 

Both tools are markers, if you are not familiar with any tool you can get it wrong, only that with the e-collar you can give a dog an electric shock and actually hurt a dog with an e-collar but you can't hurt a dog with a clicker. 
You can teach them false behaviors but you don't give them electric shocks. You can teach them something you don't want but if you click wrong once, it doesn't really have so much effect because it takes repetition and a lot of shaping to teach a dog a behavior but if I slap the e-collar onto a dog and zap them really good, because I think that is the right way to do it, or accidently put on the wrong setting, that might make much more damage than a single click that I timed wrong. 

Again, I am not saying that it is a bad tool, I am just not advising for using it yourself without having being trained in it. 

Isn't it hypocritical to say "But what if your timing is off with the clicker." and not acknowledge the fact that timing is just as important with the e-collar than it is with the clicker?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Isn't it hypocritical to say "But what if your timing is off with the clicker." and not acknowledge the fact that timing is just as important with the e-collar than it is with the clicker?


I'd say, because of the fact it's actually a punishment (yes a "stimulation" is a punishment) timing is much more critical in the use of any aversion training.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:help:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, there are two threads for this back and forth - one (HA! ONE!) on e-collars and one (HA! ONE!) on clickers. These are great conversations and people are being tremendous on this thread - it is appreciated. But, would really like to keep that focus on Eli, if his poor person comes back! Because they do have relativity to the thread - I am leaving them - but the OP can definitely look at those other threads specifically for reference. Hoping that we get some feedback from him so that we can answer, but please continue those discussions in those threads. Thanks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was posting to Mrs. K and thought we were in the e-collar thread. 
I apologize 
AND will go have another cuppa!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually I think the most valuable suggestion in this topic is to "Go, get a good trainer!"


Especially with aggression issues... just get a trainer... darnit!

And with that, I will leave it to the rest.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Comments about training theories and methods have been moved to threads in training theory section.


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## jandr95 (Aug 6, 2011)

*More on Eli...*

We are consulting with another trainer on Eli and still investigating training methods. 

In the meantime, let me ask the group's opinion on some recent Eli behavior.

Eli gets along ok with my older dogs but, for whatever reason, randomly goes after our year-old Lab, Sophie. Sophie was added about a month after we adopted Eli. 

He charges her, fur slightly raised, barking aggressively, then just as quickly backs off. Minutes later, he'll be playing with her, wrestling with and mouthing her. 

These "charges" are usually triggered by the same things. If I call Sophie to the back door to go outside, Eli waits until she reaches the door, then charges and attacks her (he even nipped me by accident as I was standing between them at that point). His fur is up but he's barking more than biting. In other words, no teeth showing. I tell him "No" sternly and he slinks away.

He does the same thing in the morning. Sophie sleeps on the bed, the other 3 dogs (Eli included) sprawled out on the floor around the bed. He waits for her to make a move to jump off the bed, then attacks her. 

And then, rarely, he will just corner her and bark aggressively at her until I say no. Not too much later, they're playing tug-of-war with a sock. 

What's going on in that doggie brain of his? Is this jealousy because I'm showing Sophie attention? Or am I anthropomorphising? 

Come to think of it, the only time I see him bark semi-aggressively like that at my wife is when the three of us are in our fenced-in corral and she releases him. He'll run away, then circle back and bark at her. I'll have to see what happens if I'm not present.

On the plus side, I have seen him actually walk up to my wife and lick her hand when we're in the house. He seems a little more at ease with her. At this rate, he might like her in 6-7 years. 

Jim


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

He's trying to control her space.

Please instate these techniques if you have not done so yet. I'd have that dog on a leash 24/7 at this point!

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> I would agree with you if we were talking about a normal dog without issues.
> 
> But you can't expect people, who don't know how to read a dog, to go onto an internet website, read up on material to properly work a dog. You may be very knowledgable but that is a disaster waiting to happen. Especially when you deal with aggression.


Quite a few people have done just that. It's not necessary that one know how to read a dog to use my articles. They're written for the absolute beginner with the Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> The way you have described the e-collar is that you use it as a marker. A clicker is just that, a marker.


I have no idea where you've gotten the idea that I use a clicker _"as a marker."_ That statement is incorrect. A far better way to describe my use is by describing it as "pressure." I apply pressure to the dog, guide him into the desired behavior, and then remove the pressure. I'm not marking anything. 



Mrs.K said:


> Both tools are markers, if you are not familiar with any tool you can get it wrong, only that with the e-collar you can give a dog an electric shock and actually hurt a dog with an e-collar but you can't hurt a dog with a clicker.


If someone is following my methods of using an Ecollar, they're not going to, as you say, _"actually hurt a dog... "_ At most you'll cause some minor discomfort. In another thread I described that I'd seen a woman get frustrated and throw her clicker at her dog, narrowly missing striking him in the eye. You can hurt a dog with just about any tool if you use it improperly. 



Mrs.K said:


> You can teach them false behaviors but you don't give them electric shocks. You can teach them something you don't want but if you click wrong once, it doesn't really have so much effect because it takes repetition and a lot of shaping to teach a dog a behavior


If someone has poor timing, they'll be clicking at the wrong moment and teaching the dog the wrong thing consistently. They'll have the repetition that's necessary and the dog will learn the wrong behavior. 



Mrs.K said:


> but if I slap the e-collar onto a dog and zap them really good, because I think that is the right way to do it, or accidently put on the wrong setting, that might make much more damage than a single click that I timed wrong.


No one who is using my methods is _"slap[ping] the e-collar onto a dog and zap[ping] them really good ... "_ Rather, they are using the stim at very low levels and pressing the button at the same moment as they are guiding the dog into the desired behavior. One can't get the timing wrong. With the Ecollar and my methods, the timing is much easier than with a clicker. 



Mrs.K said:


> Again, I am not saying that it is a bad tool, I am just not advising for using it yourself without having being trained in it.


That's what my articles are for, to train people in using the Ecollar the right way. 



Mrs.K said:


> Isn't it hypocritical to say "But what if your timing is off with the clicker." and not acknowledge the fact that timing is just as important with the e-collar than it is with the clicker?


But it's not. And with my methods, since things happen at the same moment, it's easy for people to learn to use. If one can clap their hands and tap their foot at the same moment, their timing is good enough to use an Ecollar with my methods.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I'd say, because of the fact it's actually a punishment (yes a "stimulation" is a punishment) timing is much more critical in the use of any aversion training.


If we were discussing _"aversion training"_ you might have a point. That is where the dog is stimmed for doing something that the owner does not want him to do, such as getting into a garbage can. But we're not discussing that kind of training, so your statement about _"critical timing"_ has no bearing. 

My methods were devised with the fact in mind, that most people do not have good timing. It doesn't require that the owner recognize that the dog is doing something and then for him to do something in response, as clicker training does. Instead the owner presses the button and (for example) pulls the dog towards him at the same time. After about a second he releases the button. If he holds it down for a shorter or a longer period of time, it's not critical.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jandr95 said:


> In the meantime, let me ask the group's opinion on some recent Eli behavior.
> 
> Eli gets along ok with my older dogs but, for whatever reason, randomly goes after our year-old Lab, Sophie. Sophie was added about a month after we adopted Eli.
> 
> ...


I'm not a big believer in jealousy among dogs, although it may look like it. A dog who thinks that he is of a certain rank in the pack, thinks that he has certain privileges that a lesser dog does not have. I'd say that Eli feels dominant about some things that you are doing with Sophie and feels that you should be engaging in this activity with him, a higher ranking dog. 

I'd suggest that you take a look at this article. Http://www.loucastle.com/establishing-leadership-page-1


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup::thumbup::groovy::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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