# bashed for clicker training



## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

I was calling a few training programs in the area to decide which I will use when the pup attends formal classes. I explained that I had been using the clicker at home and was teaching him the basics along with a few fun tricks. We've been getting pretty good results with it and I found it to be easier than a marker word (mostly because I'm a talker and found it hard to just use one word to mark at the right time). The guy I talked to said that no real, serious trainers use clickers and I should put it in a drawer and forget about it. What if my pup ran into the street and I didn't have the clicker, he'd be hit by a car...

I found this off putting to say the least and won't be calling him back, but from my understanding, using a clicker won't make the commands weaker. My dog will still come without the clicker (first, because I would only click when he's coming, but also because it's only used when I'm training, not every time I say a command). Is there any real correlation between using a clicker and having a dog that doesn't listen as well once he's grown? Is there any noticeable difference in the obedience of dogs trained by a clicker and other positive methods? 

(My pups only 3 months old, so there's lots of learning going on, but not corrections or real formal obedience training. )


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

From what he said to you, you know more about what a clicker is for and how it's used 
Good thing you won't be calling him back!

I have (and still do) use a clicker for years (along with not using one and using a marker word). "Serious" trainers use marker words and clickers are no different. I actually prefer my students use one when they start training because marker words can be difficult for them to use properly.

Sounds like you are on the right track


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

jessac said:


> I was calling a few training programs in the area to decide which I will use when the pup attends formal classes. I explained that I had been using the clicker at home and was teaching him the basics along with a few fun tricks. We've been getting pretty good results with it and I found it to be easier than a marker word (mostly because I'm a talker and found it hard to just use one word to mark at the right time). The guy I talked to said that no real, serious trainers use clickers and I should put it in a drawer and forget about it. What if my pup ran into the street and I didn't have the clicker, he'd be hit by a car...
> 
> I found this off putting to say the least and won't be calling him back, but from my understanding, using a clicker won't make the commands weaker. My dog will still come without the clicker (first, because I would only click when he's coming, but also because it's only used when I'm training, not every time I say a command). Is there any real correlation between using a clicker and having a dog that doesn't listen as well once he's grown? Is there any noticeable difference in the obedience of dogs trained by a clicker and other positive methods?
> 
> (My pups only 3 months old, so there's lots of learning going on, but not corrections or real formal obedience training. )


I teach clicker training but it took several years before I was comfortable using it in my classes since it requires a complete turn around in thinking. My own dogs that I have clicker trained from day 1 have been the most obedient dogs I have ever had because there is no force involved and they are happy to listen because it is rewarding and not to avoid punishment. The trick is to wean them off the clicker as soon as possible so you have to do it right and go to a trainer who knows how it works vs the ones that bash it and just let you know that they haven't kept up with the newest insights.
The APDT is the site to go to and find a trainer in your area.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

The trainer probably got that Ed Frawley owner of Leerburg kennels. In one of his training videos he states that a clicker you will not have with you always, but you will your voice.
He uses markers for his training, but does not insult the clicker method. I have had to use both methods with different dogs. Some respond to clicker training real well, but I do prefer the marker method with a word instead. 
I have used clickers to train other handlers especially children. If I have a young child learning how to handle a dog, and they are not sure when to use the marker word. I will stand by with the clicker. Once the child hears the click they then give the marker. It's a bit tricky to get the timing down, but it can and is being done. I don't think any trainer should put down any technique because its not what they use. It's a proven method and it does work, but its not what I like prefer to use. The goal with clicker training is not to get them dependent on the clicker sound forever, but to allow them to recognize the sound with a command and eventually work away from the clicker by replacing it with marker words and rewards. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I won't always have my clicker, but neither will I have my leash or electric remote.
These are tools we use to train the dog. 

There are ineffective trainers using all of them. There are fewer (at least in my area) clicker/marker trainers, so it may be harder to find a knowledgeable and capable trainer using the clicker.
But good training is good training, no matter what is in the hand


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

Bashed for clicker training that is crazy. I used the clicker with Kaylee when she was 3 months up to 5 months old because we no longer needed it. I used it for specific things on our walks that I trained her for. It came in very handy when we worked on cars, observation, and marking her in busy areas. My opinion on clickers... There is nothing wrong with clicker training but you have to be careful to how, when, and why you click etc. Some people click at the wrong time for the wrong thing and reward the wrong behavior. So I took my time and worked slowly not for the dog but for myself to make sure I was marking it right. I am not a professional trainer I consider myself to be the average pet owner. 

My experience when I was hunting for a trainer for Kaylee I ran into some interesting things. I felt the people who immediately ran off all the things they do not use and methods they were against I decided not to go with. Many of them gave me a lecture about what they do not do instead of listening to my wants, needs, and questions. I want to know what you do and how you do it. Not a lecture on what you will not use or what I should not be using. You can not tell exactly what has been done until you meet me in person with my dog. Verbally history helps but seeing is believing, lol. I was looking for some one who was into using positive reinforcement training but was not against using other equipment or training methods if it is needed or the owner wants to use. I found a trainer who listened to me and what style of training I have done with my dog. I found someone whose methods used are nearly the same as my own.

When I started the classes we fit right in and there was no confusion with the training. The best part about it the classes were small and about 2 hours long so each of us had help and pointers for our individual dogs after the first hour of group session lessons. 

What makes sense to me some trainers have specific methods and style they use which is fine. How I approach it is are they on the same path as me and is this specific trainer's methods are what I want use with my dog. If the answer is no then I keep searching until I find the one. I will contact the trainers and ask to attend a class by myself to observe and then talk to them in person to get a real feel of what they are about. So I wish you luck on finding the right trainer for you!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I got ripped for using a clicker by one of our really old-school instructors. In her opinion a marking word was the same thing and the bonus of that is that it is always on you. I used a clicker for a while, but then just got tired of always having to remember it, and when you don't remember it you're still resorting to praise and marking words anyways.

It works great...when you remember to use it, and after my boy was about 6 months old, it got really annoying trying to remember it.


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

People all use different methods of training...that guy was a jerk (for censorship purposes) I wonder how much business he loses because of his attitude


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I cross off trainers on my list if they bash other training methods. Too close-minded for me. Clicker training is great for introducing new things. Once they get the concept I usually switch to a marker word to proof.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Personally, I hate the clicker for training a dog ... LOVED it with my parrots! I found my voice much more productive with dogs. 

Echo knows when I'm getting the clicker out we're having a "fun" session and gets really happy!

Would I bash someone for using it? Or preferring it? 

ABSOLUTELY NOT .... that it not a professional trainer - real pros NEVER bash other methods ... 

You're not missing out on anything at all for not calling him back. 

On another note ... congrats on using it already with your 3 month old pup ... sounds like you are already off to a great start!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I've always used a clicker with all my dogs with great results. The puppy class I chose used clicker training as well, but when I changed venues the new trainer didn't believe in them. I told her I was going to use it rather then a marker word and got a scornful look in return, she asked me to demonstrate so I did a quick "sit" and clicked. "Well, he's quite conditioned to it" and walked away.

Needless to say of ALL the dogs in that class guess who was the snappiest at obedience and who was the one dog out of the eight they chose 95% of the time to demonstrate....DELGADO!  Yes I admit I was a little smug


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Shade said:


> Needless to say of ALL the dogs in that class guess who was the snappiest at obedience and who was the one dog out of the eight they chose 95% of the time to demonstrate....DELGADO!  Yes I admit I was a little smug


That trainer the OP spoke with is an idiot and I would not go to them. Whether you chose to use a clicker or not, they DO work and good trainers would not be so dismissive.

If you find a better trainer you will be in a similar situation as Shade, they will allow to use the clicker and probably be able to fine tune your use, and you and you dog will be the class Superstars


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Great job Shade - you deserve to be smug!!! Good one!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

The trainer was decent enough but I just found her attitude off-putting when she didn't agree with you. It was a "my way or the highway" attitude which I don't respond well to, but it was a six week class and I used it to sharpen his skills and be open to learning new ones.

I don't think we'll ever find a trainer that we agree with 100% and in a group class they have to try and cater to many different dogs and owners but I would hope they would have more then one skill in their pocket or otherwise they'll either be lost or the owners will.


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

Yeah, the guy just put me off so I came to vent on here instead of educating him on how a clicker is really used. I kinda felt like I was in the principals office getting yelled at, but hadn't done anything wrong. Everyone is entitled to their methods and opinion of course, but I felt it was unnecessary to get so negative about it (esp if its working). 

As for training, I do use a marker (good boy) but my pitch varies, I laugh while saying it (he's young, sometimes the stuff he does is hilarious), sometimes I'm all "good boy" then "excellent" you get the idea. So for me, the clicker was easier just so I didn't have to also train myself to stop chattering. We only use it when he's learning, so I do just use my voice when I ask him to sit before going outside, before dinner, etc, and I think he gets that when we're training it's different than when we're just asking him to be polite. 

Glad to hear you guys have had success with it. I never actually met a clicker trained dog (or really a well trained dog for that matter) so I really had no idea if it worked. It seems to be working, of course, but we've only been at it a short time, so I figured I'd ask on here about long term success.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

jessac, just a word of caution from my trainer, which never really occurred to me: everyone and their mothers use "good boy", IE: dog jumps up and all happy to see person? the uneducated will normally say "awhhh good boyyy" (I know my mother does) what does this teach the dog? you guessed it. So she advises "YES" which almost always sounds the same no matter your pitch, and people are not so quick to yell YES instead of "goooood doggggg" My marker word is "YES" although I do find myself saying much too often "YES, GOOD BOY" or "YES, ATTA BOY". every day i need to remind myself not to do that... :hammer:

I usually like to use the clicker to reinforce behavior rather than teach, mainly since I have terrible click timing during normal obedience but I can apply it very well for impulse/wait games. 
I wonder if he gets more out of it a clicker when used to reinforce, rather than taught? Would imagine, "hey I know this... *click* i knew i knew this"


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

You make a really good point. I do try and say good boys for when he actually is being good. I actually ignore him when he's jumping and crazy excited so he doesn't get the wrong idea, but my hubs is a softie and can't resist him. I'll pay more ATTN and see if he uses 'good boy' in that scenario (and others). I did hear of using yes, I just found the click to be easier because I didn't have to remember to say 'yes' because it was so not natural to say (which is preciesly you're point, eh?). I'm a first time puppy owner and still learning the best way to train the pup. I'm sure it will evolve as I learn more, start him in puppy class (after the chaos of the holidays) and get better and communicating with my dog. Thanks for the advice, I'm always happy to draw from others experience.

I think it depends on what you are teaching also. Sit, down, etc we taught using lures/verbal praise initially before we got the clicker, so I don't know if he really was taught with the clicker as opposed to reinforced. But for commands like shake (paw) and touch (his nose to my hand) he seemed to learn the verbal cues quickly with the clicker. Sometimes he would try both because the hand signals are similar and he wasn't sure what I was asking, but the click told him which one. 

Now if there was a magical training tool to keep him from eating rocks, we-d be in business. (Yes, we're working on leave it. It works for kibble, toys, treats, butt 
those rocks and poos outside are just too tasty I guess?!)


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Chiming in as another huge fan of clicker training, in case you weren't reassured enough yet.  I think the clicker is actually a lot easier than a marker word for most newbies to the method. What I notice is that the clicker has a steeper learning curve initially, but many novice handlers who use a marker word don't actually use it as consistently as they think they are. Of course that is a huge generalization and I'm sure some people are the other way.

As far the idea that your pup isn't going to listen to you if you don't have the clicker, that seems to be one of the biggest myths out there among those who like to bash clicker training. The clicker is a training tool so the dog knows exactly what you want him to do as you're teaching him; once he gets it, you phase it out.

Personally, since I started clicker training, I reached a new level of obedience and training with my dogs. I have some difficult ones too, and I've seriously gotten a level of responsiveness from them that I would have thought impossible before. I've also used it to bring some very reactive and fearful dogs out of their shells--one of them I struggled with for literally years, and within 6 months of clicker training he was like a different dog. I sometimes feel like a broken record because I recommend it for the vast majority of problems people see in their pets, but the simple fact is that I've used it on a variety of dogs with those problems and had wonderful results that I never was able to achieve with other methods.

I mean it isn't a miracle that's going to make even the most reactive dog into a great family dog or whatever, but I think it is the most effective way to bring out the best in a dog. And btw, just to address another thing that trainer said...I know plenty of serious trainers who use clickers, including people in working situations like herding and SAR.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One of the first SchH clubs I went to...everyone was using clickers. I was impressed that they were into positive training methods. That lasted about 2 months and then everyone started going back to their old ways. I think they were on board with ME's methods(he was just getting going as 'the trainer'/flavor of the month) but clickers and some exercises aren't always in sync. Especially blind search exercises! So the ecollars were brought out and training resumed....
I like the clicker and it seems once a dog is trained on one, you can always go back and the dog doesn't miss a beat(no refresher course necessary).
For reactive dogs or handlers that are getting anxious or frustrated, a clicker is best because there is no emotion resonating with a verbal marker.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

I agree that it's not practical for all exercises with a working dog. It's hard to use a clicker when your dog is on the other side of a flock of sheep too.  But yeah, laying a foundation with a clicker isn't a bad thing for any work I'm familiar with.


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## ankittanna87 (Nov 20, 2012)

just wanting to chip in, I spoke to a professional trainer here who's been training protection, obedience, tracking & ScH for quite some time & I told him I've been using the clicker with Kaiser & he told me that he uses only marker words which I think is fine since he's been training dogs for quite some time & he's mastered the art! I'm getting Kaiser trained in protection work/ScH & advanced obedience training.. I know he's quite young now (8 weeks) but the trainer said he will only instil the foundation of ScH now & we will pick it up when he's a year old!!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

The only difference between a clicker and a marker word is just that. A click and a word. They mean the same thing. It's just a different way. Some people find a marker word easier while others find a clicker easier. Some trainers have NO idea how to use a clicker which IME leads to the bashing. If you are doing your training correctly, the clicker is really only necessary for the dog to learn to connect the command with the action. Its the same with a marker word. Once they have it down, reinforcement periodically with the clicker works but the dog still knows the action for the command.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> The only difference between a clicker and a marker word is just that. A click and a word. They mean the same thing.


The clicker will take the emotion out of the marker....so it works best if someone is getting frustrated or anxious while training. Especially when using it for reactive behaviors.


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

I think anyone who uses a clicker CORRECTLY will have the same results as someone who uses marker words CORRECTLY. Having said that, we all have preferences and when one person may be good at using marker training, another may be better at using clicker training.

Personally I find it much easier to mark a behaviour with a quick "Good girl" rather than use the clicker. For reasons that I dont understand I seem to enjoy the training more BECAUSE i am getting emotionally involved, and as such, my dog picks it up easier. I found using a clicker helpful at first, but when you have distractions around, I think the dog picks up on your voice better than the clicker, although this is just my own experience, I cant speak for others.

Bottom line is, anyone who bashes clicker training does not understand the concepts of dog training, so you where right not to call this person back. sure you can have a preference in using marker words over clickers, or vice versa, but the principal is the same, and the dog needs to know EXACTLY when he/she has offered the correct behaviour, so that they can replicate it.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

jessac said:


> What if my pup ran into the street and I didn't have the clicker, he'd be hit by a car...


That's stupid. I hear this all the time from people who don't understand what clicker training is.


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