# Insurance and Schutzhund?



## DogBuddy (May 2, 2008)

For those of you who do schutzhund with you dogs, what do you do for home owners insurance? My State Farm agent told me that if I train my dog in bite work they will drop us. He said the BH and tracking is fine but no bite work.

What do you guys do? I called around and I haven't found an agent willing to write a policy for a house with a dog that has done any bite work. My current dog has no bite work training.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

are you planning to do bite work training with your current dog? not sure i understand. if your dog has not been trained then why are you telling insurance companies...unless you plan to do bitework and want to be covered?


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Not sure why you would tell the insurance company(???). Most people not familiar with the sport will hear "bitework" and think attack dog and see big liability issues. 

We have Travellers insurance and they know we have gsds but have never ask anything about what kind of training our dogs have.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

Our homeowners insurance has never asked if we had pets. I tend to answer questions directly but without volunteering any additional information. We have a fenced backyard and I have thought of posting a sign that says simply "DOG IN YARD" as the dogs do go out there but never without someone watching from inside. The other side I tend to think better not to draw any attention to the fact that we have dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My agent (20 years) has never asked about my dogs - breed or training...you get "one free" bite I was told - then no insurance....they did however, freak out when I got my new car door dented by the tiger who rolled a log into it!







Said they could not cover me with a tiger on my property!!! Had to clarify - the tiger was 100 miles away and I visited!

Lee


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I do not say anything about Schutzhund. I do make sure my insurance knows I have two GSD's. A dog that can pass a BH is better than most of the pets out there from a temperament and obedience standpoint.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Our agent knows our dogs and no issue. Knows we train and work dogs.


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## DogBuddy (May 2, 2008)

Why did I mention it? If something happens they won't cover you if you lied. They are release from coverage if you lie. Example: If you tell them you have a Chevette and you actually have a Corvette and someone hits you they can back out of your coverage.

How did I mention it....I switch to State Farm from American Family when they told me to get rid of my APBT. State Farm told me at that time they didn't care about my breed of dog but did mention bite training. They said they would rather insure a APBT who was not trained in Bitework than a Poodle who had been trained in Bitework.

Of course people who know better, know that untrained dogs are more likely to bite for no reason. But when did insurance companies make since.

The reason I asked...The next dog I get I really want to do Schutzhund with.


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## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

Ours has a "One Bite" policy. They will cover the first bite, but none after.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DogBuddyWhy did I mention it? If something happens they won't cover you if you lied. They are release from coverage if you lie. Example: If you tell them you have a Chevette and you actually have a Corvette and someone hits you they can back out of your coverage.
> How did I mention it....I switch to State Farm from American Family when they told me to get rid of my APBT. State Farm told me at that time they didn't care about my breed of dog but did mention bite training. They said they would rather insure a APBT who was not trained in Bitework than a Poodle who had been trained in Bitework.
> 
> Of course people who know better, know that untrained dogs are more likely to bite for no reason. But when did insurance companies make since.
> ...


This confuses me. If you tell them you have a Chevette, then you're insuring a crappy little car. You're not paying a premium for a sports car. It's not a matter of lying, it's a matter of the fact that you're not insuring the right property accurately. I can tell them that I have a shack in a swamp, but if the adjuster shows up and my house is a mansion in Beverly Hills, that's a problem. You're not paying the right premium. 

Insurance companies are entitled to be paid appropriate premiums for the correct coverage.

And ultimately, that's just dumb because it might cost $15K to replace a shack. Good luck replacing the mansion for that. With regard to the Corvette, the policy doesn't have a specific limit built into it, but the insurer set your premium based on what your vehicle is worth. Assuming the insurer paid, the offset would be absorbed by other policyholders' premiums. THAT isn't ethical.

In the instance of the dog, your GSD is what you're "insuring." You're not pretending he's something else. He's most likely safer than most pets. So more premium or an exclusion from coverage isn't necessary. 

I've never seen an application that asks about the sort of training that a dog has. Granted, it's been a few years since I've seen HO insurance apps, but I don't know of any that ask about training info specicially. I always offer it (my dogs do lots of obedience work, and one of my dogs was a service dog, so they could not legally exclude him). But I don't know of any apps that ask. 

From what I could see from surfing around, a few ask "do you own a vicious dog?" Well, a ScH dog isn't vicious per se.

So, you may have had an agent who just had enough information to be dangerous. Perhaps he saw something on TV about ScH. If he understood it, he wouldn't have been so concerned. I guarantee you if you call agents and ask about "bitework," they're going to say "Uh. No." If they don't, their underwriters will. 

But you don't have to offer info. You can NOT lie (or even stretch the truth a bit -- no "lab mix" dogs) . But you don't have to offer info either. If the app doesn't ask specifically for training or title info, then you don't need to offer. It's not dishonest; it's not unethical. 

It won't get you in trouble down the road if you simply answer their questions directly and honestly; and if things change in the future, (if you do get a dog that's deemed a "vicious dog") you let them know. You do have an obligation to advise your insurance of change in risk. And obviously, obey the law. No meth labs.









The basic consensus within the industry and the courts is that if an insurer thinks something is important, they need to ask about it on their application that you then sign (attesting that all of your answers are truthful). The applicant doesn't have to try to "guess" what other information might be relevant to the underwriters. 

I'm not an attorney. This isn't legal advice and shouldn't be construed as such. If you want to openly advise insurers about dogs that do "bitework," though, of course that's your right. But in that case, probably the only folks that will touch you are the underwriters at Lloyds. They'll insure anything for the right price. Go to an independent insurer and ask there.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Go to an independent insurance BROKER is what I meant to say. Those are the people that write policies for Lloyds. Not all do. Call around before you drop by.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

When I bought a house, I called around and specifically asked about banned breeds. My Farm Bureau insurance (car) would not cover German Shepherds on homeowners, nor would Allstate.
State Farm would, and they asked me if my dogs were attack trained, I said no.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomThis confuses me. If you tell them you have a Chevette, then you're insuring a crappy little car. You're not paying a premium for a sports car. It's not a matter of lying, it's a matter of the fact that you're not insuring the right property accurately. I can tell them that I have a shack in a swamp, but if the adjuster shows up and my house is a mansion in Beverly Hills, that's a problem. You're not paying the right premium.
> 
> Insurance companies are entitled to be paid appropriate premiums for the correct coverage.
> 
> ...


Exactly. When dealing with anything that goes before an underwriter, jury or judge your obligations are to answer the questions that are put before you - nothing else. Keep offering up unsolicited information and you will get yourself in trouble eventually. 

Different insurance companies have different guidelines in different states. Allstate has no issues with GSD's in IL. Liberty Mutual will not cover someone with a child under 12 and a "dangerous breed dog". They say a GSD is a dangerous breed dog. I never pass up the opportunity to flame them whenever possible due to that, and I talk to a lot of homeowners since I'm a mortgage broker. I've switched every Liberty Mutual customer I come across away from them and tell everyone I know never to do business with them. I got into an argument with the agent that was telling me about the story of her family GSD attacking her sister "out of the blue". Umm NO, just because your parents are idiots about dogs does not mean GSD's are monsters. Dogs NEVER attack out of the blue unless there's something big medically wrong.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Mmmnnn. how about explaining that you're dog is just trained to 'grab a sleeve,' and not trained in personal protection?


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## Technostorm (May 24, 2009)

First of all, I wouldn't go telling my insurance guy that my dog is training in bitework. But in the event he found out about bitework, I would explain that it is rather a "Bite-Restrictive Training". Thats with the emphasis on "Training commands to let go in the event of a bite.". Hope its a good enough excuse. But seriously, some of these insurance people are dorks. Wouldn't they rather insure dogs who's taken formal training then to have a ignores commands? I guess they can't tell a difference if they don't look into it. I'm pretty sure there are dog owners who are in the insurance field.. hehe.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I have Farm Bureau, and my agent knows that I do schutzhund with my dogs. I've never had a problem with them over my dogs.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

We tell them that my dogs are OB competition dogs. End of. and they never asked further.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I have Allstate and they never asked me what breed of dogs I had, so I sure wasn't going to volunteer, especially in light of the fact my German Shepherds are as sweet and friendly as can be. I made the mistake of telling Nationwide I had a stallion when the agent started acting like he was actually interested in the horses, I admitted I had horses due to the ridiculous attractive nuisance clause, the guy than says oh, you have a stallion? Like he really was interested, I said yes a real nice one and he hits me with the ridiculous notion that I am than a breeding farm with a potential liability to people, I explained he is my own horse and doesn't stand to outside mares and he said it didn't matter, if I had a stallion than I was a breeding farm, I said if you have 4 fruit trees does it make you an Orchard!!! Needless to say I went with Allstate who could care less about the horses regardless of sex. I have since adopted the policy of don't ask, don't tell.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LARHAGEI I said if you have 4 fruit trees does it make you an Orchard!!!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1When I bought a house, I called around and specifically asked about banned breeds. My Farm Bureau insurance (car) would not cover German Shepherds on homeowners, nor would Allstate.
> State Farm would, and they asked me if my dogs were attack trained, I said no.


Really? Farm Bureau here is one of the few who doesn't ban gsd's. allstate and state farm, they don't even write policies here anymore so it's kind of a mute point


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I was certainly surprised when Georgia Farm Bureau told me that.... you'd think a "farm based" organization would be ok with working dogs.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Fact of the matter is Schutzhund or not, ANY dog can bite. 

"Bite training" does not necessarily equal Schutzhund in an insurance agent's eyes. "Bite training" to insurance agents generally conjures up thoughts of "attack on command" type of dogs...."Fido....sic 'em!" to anyone who approaches type of situation. 

FWIW, I have State Farm, and I have an almost 7 mths old German Shepherd and a 10 mths old Pit Bull.


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## marosmith (Feb 7, 2009)

i work for insurance and can say confidently, don't tell them. it will not affect your coverage.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistleFact of the matter is Schutzhund or not, ANY dog can bite.
> 
> "Bite training" does not necessarily equal Schutzhund in an insurance agent's eyes. "Bite training" to insurance agents generally conjures up thoughts of "attack on command" type of dogs...."Fido....sic 'em!" to anyone who approaches type of situation.
> 
> FWIW, I have State Farm, and I have an almost 7 mths old German Shepherd and a 10 mths old Pit Bull.



Gotta agree here with a little more clarification... Schutzhund is NOT attack training and it is NOT personal protection training. It is nothing close to those two things.

Schutzhund is a sport, and to the dog it is pretty much a modified game of tug. Not to mention that most people who are educated in dog training know that Schutzhund dogs are better trained and better bahaved (in general, there are always nut cases no matter dogs, people, etc) than most other dogs out there.

I would never go around telling people my dog was "bite trained" or "trained to attack" or was a "protection dog"... least of all an insurance agent... if I told her to bite someone she would look at me like I was crazy... not because she knows better, but because she would have no idea what I was talking about.

Dogs are situational. Dude ain't wearing a sleeve, so the "game" isn't there. Now, if someone came at me like they were going to attack me, she MIGHT spring in to action (and I hope she would) but so would almost any dog, including my sister's 4 pound Yorkie.

I have to agree with the other posters though, unless they ask you directly "is your dog trained in Schutzhund?" there isn't any reason you have to offer up that info. Again, not legal advice, just common sense.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistleFact of the matter is Schutzhund or not, ANY dog can bite.


Tell the guy your dog has a clean "out"


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as insurance goes, my philosophy is if they don't ask, I don't tell. I certainly wouldn't lie if asked a direct question, but I will not, nor are people required to, offer information.

We have AAA and our insurance agent knows we have dogs and what breed they are because he asked. If he hadn't asked, he wouldn't know. He doesn't know we do any sort of "bite training" because he didn't ask about that. He did ask if they'd "ever bitten anyone". To which my answer was "no", since it was apparent he was inquiring about real bites (for which an insurance company may be liable) not training scenarios.




> Originally Posted By: krylosSchutzhund is a sport, and to the dog it is pretty much a modified game of tug.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Dude ain't wearing a sleeve, so the "game" isn't there.


Disagree here though. Yes, many dogs, handlers and clubs participate in SchH as merely a big game of tug. But that is NOT what it is supposed to be and IMO that is not correct SchH. SchH is supposed to be a test of working ability. And that includes ability to serve as a true protection dog. In that vein, when doing SchH the dog should be working in the same drives and mindset as he would in "real protection" and that means things like defense, aggression, fight, and viewing the helper as a threat, opponent and challenge to be dominated and defeated, not a playmate. Yes, it is within the confines of the SchH environment and exercises, but it should still be a *whole lot more* than a prey game of tug.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildDisagree here though. Yes, many dogs, handlers and clubs participate in SchH as merely a big game of tug. But that is NOT what it is supposed to be and IMO that is not correct SchH. SchH is supposed to be a test of working ability. And that includes ability to serve as a true protection dog. In that vein, when doing SchH the dog should be working in the same drives and mindset as he would in "real protection" and that means things like defense, aggression, fight, and viewing the helper as a threat, opponent and challenge to be dominated and defeated, not a playmate. Yes, it is within the confines of the SchH environment and exercises, but it should still be a *whole lot more* than a prey game of tug.


I agree that SchH training should be serious, but it is also very situational. You can see the difference in your dog's attitude and behavior when they simply see the blinds come out for the protection phase of SchH training. (this is one reason I have been trying to get our club to start training in different places rather than a soccer field every time to make it more realistic).

There are a lot of differences though between Schutzhund and actual personal protection training. While Lana can be a very serious dog, she hasn't been trained (through Schutzhund) to be a personal protection dog. Schutzhund will prove that she has what it takes to do that kind of work, like you said, but I still highly doubt that I could give her the "bite" command and have her bite someone. Do I think she would protect me if someone was attacking me? Yes, I believe she would, however no matter how tough and threatening our current helper (or any of our secondaries for that matter) tries to act, Lana will still turn around and take the sleeve right back to him, if given the opportunity, and try to play tug with him. Perhaps the guy just really isn't that threatening or maybe its just a really well bred dog





















that has a high threshold for stress and enjoys the fight.

P.S. - wouldn't trade this little girl for anything!


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