# 4 month old lite growling at correction



## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

Yesterday and this morning I was doing some training with Franklin. He's a few days shy 4 months old. I have one our kids hula hoops that I throw and he chases. Before I do, I give a cycle of commands in various order. Sit, down, stay, or sit and stay, or down, up, sit, stay. Then I'll throw the hoop, tell him to get. He goes.

Sometimes, he won't follow through with a command. I'll do verbal and hand signal, then verbal as a last chance. After every successful follow through, i positively mark it. If he doesn't by the second, I give a light correction with the prong collar. It is seated properly and is not loose, not super tight; snug. As I give him the correction, I will make the no noise. Sometimes I have to up the correction a bit and he lets out a lite exasperated growl, then follow through with the command. He hasn't yelped, so I assume the correct amount of pop has been given. He's just defiant it seems. I positively reinforce his follow through. 

Why is he growling? Is it something to correct also be concerned about? Is there something I may be doing wrong that I shouldn't?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Take the prong off the puppy before you ruin him. Stop correcting and start over. Everything should be positive at his age.

Why are you using a hula hoop instead of food? Find and use something of higher value and use that. 

Puppies that age don't have much of an attention span. Keep training short. 15-20 minutes tops. Just do them several times spread throughout the day.

Is he in a training class yet?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

4 months old?

Life should be a glorious game, not one full of BORING BORING BORING BORING 'OBEDIENCE'!!!!!!

Take off the darn prong collar and instead get out the treats/clicker and start teaching him GAMES!!!

The GAME of 'sit'. The GAME of 'down' . If you teach it as a fun game with a real REWARD (not a punishment already!!!!!!!!!!!!!) he'll be offering you a sit/down/whatever faster than you can even think about what you were wanting him to do!

What you SHOULD be teaching a puppy (please read all the link) ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

I don't even have a LEASH on my puppies, let alone a prong. I want them to WANT to be with me to listen and learn new things. If I am not even able to keep their attention and focus (in short session) then the problem is ME and what I need to learn. Not about controlling and forcing my pup to do something.

Better to spend way more time socializing my pup and having them comfortable in any new situation. And getting that bond with engagement and positive training.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Well first, he's too young for a prong collar. You're doing more damage that anything. Second, is the hula hoop a toy reward?! I'd suggest switching to food rewards with a smaller toy reward like a kong wubba or ball on a rope.... 

Everything at this age should be positive and fun to build your relationship, not hinder it. Keep training sessions to 10-15 minutes, maybe even up to 20 minutes but ALWAYS end on a positive note so you don't cause stress and your puppy to not want to work with you.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

KZoppa said:


> Well first, he's too young for a prong collar. You're doing more damage that anything. Second, is the hula hoop a toy reward?! I'd suggest switching to food rewards with a smaller toy reward like a kong wubba or ball on a rope....
> 
> Everything at this age should be positive and fun to build your relationship, not hinder it. Keep training sessions to 10-15 minutes, maybe even up to 20 minutes but ALWAYS end on a positive note so you don't cause stress and your puppy to not want to work with you.


Yes. The hula is a toy reward. He loves it. Loves to chase it, loves to play tug with it. Why would it not be appropriate? It has higher value than food. Why am I not using food? Because I read a few books from the Monks of New Skete. I prefer Franklin not learn tricks for treats, but to understand fully and completely what is expected. He is a smart dog. 
From the replies, you guys make it seem I'm abusing him. Lol, how it comes across to me. Take no offense to it. 
That isn't the case. He is having fun. He plays around, we run around. It isn't always obey obey! But why would I not correct him for not listening. I was under the impression that training him was bond time. Obviously so is fun time. 

The use of the prong collar was at the recommendation of a trainer at petsmart. I used it with our adult gsds, was tremendously successful. This is our first puppy. The prong is a small one with a nylon buckle. My corrections would be what seems like to me the equivalent of a finger flick. He shows no other signs of stress except the little growl. I always end on positive note.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Before I do, I give a cycle of commands in various order. Sit, down, stay, or sit and stay, or down, up, sit, stay.


Why do a stay command and an up command? Does an up equate to a sit or a stand. You can't explain this to a dog so why include it.

The sit, down and stand are sufficient. The other commands can be confusing. The dog should not be expected to do these commands in sync until they understand the command very well on it's own. This takes hundreds of repetitions.

The reason the dog is not doing it is it doesn't see the reward coming quick enough. It does what you want, and instead of an instant reward you ask it to preform another command. That is not good enough for a pup and can de motivate it.

Basically you are doing too much too young and correcting the dog for no reason. Why do you say no when you correct?

You need to teach the dog not blindly expect it to comply with your wishes.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Why do a stay command and an up command? Does an up equate to a sit or a stand. You can't explain this to a dog so why include it.
> Stay means stay. Don't get the rolling thing until I release you. Stay is only for a few short seconds. My up for him is jump from what ever position he's in. I don't do it all the time. More of a physical exercise than anything.
> The sit, down and stand are sufficient. The other commands can be confusing. The dog should not be expected to do these commands in sync until they understand the command very well on it's own. This takes hundreds of repetitions.
> I don't move on to the next command until the first is completed. The ones he follows through with, he does quite quickly. The times he doesn't he appears to think about choosing or not. Does that make sense?.
> ...


...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

THROWING a toy is never a good reward. You want the dog to play WITH you, you want it to realize that the toy is just an intermediary of play with its handler.

Monks of New Skete...ground breaking books from the 1980s.

The prong collar is alright to use, no one here has problems with it. But most people will recommend you do it past the age of 6 months when the dog's neck and spine have developed a bit more. The problem with using it now isn't the corrections you claim to be giving...its the accidental correction or the dog getting caught on something that might do some damage. It's clearly causing your dog discomfort if he's growling at you. Imagine if he decided to just take off for something, and you're holding onto the leash, the prong will tighten and he'll get a huge correction that you didn't meant to give.

You also just shouldn't need to correct a 4 month old with a prong. They are much more biddable and you should be able to correct with a regular nylon collar or even a martingale at this point. The reason prongs are used later is that some dogs just don't care about nylon collar corrections (mine) and you need something that is quicker and more effective.

Point is...you asked why your dog is growling. He clearly doesn't like/accept the prong collar and the type of training that is going on. The advice is to remove said collar and work with a different one. Once he gets bigger, more driven, you can go to a prong collar in order to help you handle him.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Your expectations are not reasonable from a 4 month old. OF COURSE he will sometimes not carry through, he's a baby!! All the instructors and trainers I have ever worked with always said that a dog can't be expected to be reliable in obedience commands until they are over a year old - until then, help them understand in a positive way what you want, and set them up for success. 

I'm not against prong collars, nor am I against corrections - but neither has a place on a four month old. He is growling at you because he does not understand why he is corrected and is confused. At this age, everything is a game, everything should be a game to them - their brain cannot process this correction thing, and he does not understand why in the middle of a game you are now action aggressively with him (I know you are not being aggressive, but to the pup's brain, with a prong collar on, he is just confused and reacts to it). 

The best foundation training you can give your puppy is to make playing with you the best, funnest most positve thing in the world - this lays the foundation to attention, bonding, work ethic, desire to learn and to please you. Corrections have no place in the laying of this foundation. Throw in the occasional obedience command as part of the game, but it is a game, not a life and death situation.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Mr. D said:


> I prefer Franklin not learn tricks for treats, but to understand fully and completely what is expected. He is a smart dog.


How is he supposed to fully understand the tricks if you're correcting stuff he doesn't even know yet. Have you looked into clicker training? Sit - click/treat. Down - click/treat. etc. Lot's of repetitions. When you think he's got it... keep doing more repetitions. Not sit, down, up, down, stay... throw hula hoop or correct. Correcting with a prong does nothing at this age. Mark the good behavior one at a time. You're expecting way too much too fast.




Mr. D said:


> From the replies, you guys make it seem I'm abusing him. Lol, how it comes across to me. Take no offense to it.
> That isn't the case. He is having fun. He plays around, we run around. It isn't always obey obey! But why would I not correct him for not listening. I was under the impression that training him was bond time. Obviously so is fun time.


A 4 month old puppy that's growling during training is not having fun. No other way to say it. It's not normal behavior, but I blame the trainer/training methods here. 



Mr. D said:


> The use of the prong collar was at the recommendation of a trainer at petsmart.


Your trainer is clueless and wrong. I'd highly recommend you find a new and better one.



Mr. D said:


> I used it with our adult gsds, was tremendously successful. This is our first puppy. The prong is a small one with a nylon buckle. My corrections would be what seems like to me the equivalent of a finger flick. He shows no other signs of stress except the little growl. I always end on positive note.


Prongs are fine with adults when used correctly. I use one with my 5 year old female. I don't use one with my almost 6 month old puppy and he's coming along great with his training. He's by far the best behaved dog in his training classes. No prong required, yet.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lucy Dog,

+1 gajillion.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

if your dog isnt having fun good luck trying to get him to do commands in public around distractions. big difference between forcing him to do something and him wanting to do it. it's all about motivating your dog and not about correcting your dog.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

martemchik said:


> THROWING a toy is never a good reward. You want the dog to play WITH you, you want it to realize that the toy is just an intermediary of play with its handler.
> 
> Monks of New Skete...ground breaking books from the 1980s.
> 
> ...



I see nothing wrong with their method of training. It's been successful over and over, yes? 

I will do away with the collar until later and use a martingale instead. Like I said, I was using it at the recommendation of the trainer at petsmart.



> *he does not understand why in the middle of a game you are now action aggressively with him (I know you are not being aggressive, but to the pup's brain, with a prong collar on, he is just confused and reacts to it).


This makes sense to me.

Thanks for the input everyone.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Too young for prong corrections.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would definitely not take any advice from a Petsmart trainer.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mr. D said:


> I see nothing wrong with their method of training. It's been successful over and over, yes?


Depends on your definition of successful. And in truth...I haven't seen anyone use those methods in a very very long time. There are a lot of stories that go around about the Monks and their dogs, some good, some bad. They got popular by writing those books, producing decent dogs (I personally know a one year old New Skete dog...not impressive).

Their methods are compulsion, which most will tell you is not the favored way to train a dog. If you're looking to do sport, or any higher level training/trialing with your pup, I would highly suggest you stop using those methods and read some other books of more recently successful trainers that are actually proven. Sorry but the monks don't trial their dogs, they don't test them, they don't show them. IMO...their methods are drive killing and are only considered successful because the dog becomes a piece of furniture that doesn't want to do anything that might cause a negative response...which is perfect for an American household who want a stuffed animal.

I'm sure that if you'd ever seen a dog trained by their methods, and a dog trained by newer, positive reinforcement methods work...you'd see the difference immediately.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Depends on your definition of successful. And in truth...I haven't seen anyone use those methods in a very very long time. There are a lot of stories that go around about the Monks and their dogs, some good, some bad. They got popular by writing those books, producing decent dogs (I personally know a one year old New Skete dog...not impressive).
> 
> Their methods are compulsion, which most will tell you is not the favored way to train a dog. If you're looking to do sport, or any higher level training/trialing with your pup, I would highly suggest you stop using those methods and read some other books of more recently successful trainers that are actually proven. Sorry but the monks don't trial their dogs, they don't test them, they don't show them. IMO...their methods are drive killing and are only considered successful because the dog becomes a piece of furniture that doesn't want to do anything that might cause a negative response...which is perfect for an American household who want a stuffed animal.
> 
> I'm sure that if you'd ever seen a dog trained by their methods, and a dog trained by newer, positive reinforcement methods work...you'd see the difference immediately.


I would like to work him. I don't know in what. I've learned that he has working lines in him. I'd prefer not to kill his drive. I came across a post on here highly suggesting the Monks. Our library had them available so I read them. They made sense to me, I did a little research and went with it. We've been very successful with him. He follows through with the commands with roughly 80% success rate. 
We were at petsmart and doing our thing with distractions. He was focused and did great. Several staff had been watching and commented on how eager he was to do things. So I'd say he's been having a lot fun.
Either way, I'll look into other methods that aren't treat focused.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Check out this guy's youtube page. Much better training methods.

Training Positive - YouTube


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Check out this guy's youtube page. Much better training methods.
> 
> Training Positive - YouTube


Thank you.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Most methods will be very successful with 4 month old GSD pups. They're still young, they don't really want to disobey you and they realize they depend on you for a lot of things. This is why you want to keep that kind of bond going and expand on it. In a few months, your dog is going to find his "middle finger" and you'll see that 80% rate go down. What you'd like to make sure right now is that your dog is getting the foundation to want to be 100% 8 months from now. You may be seeing something right now, but once your dog gets off leash, with distractions, he'll quickly figure out that you can't correct him. On top of that, if he blows you off, he'd rather not come near you because he will get corrected. Where as a dog that is trained with more positive methods, is more likely to respond to a command because they know that something BETTER will come from it than whatever the fun distraction is currently offering.

You don't have to use treats. You can use toys. You SHOULD use whatever your dog responds to best. I've read enough books to know that the old school methods really like to downplay treats and emphasize that the dog "won't do anything if you don't have a treat later on." It's completely false. Ask the majority of people that started with treat or clicker training on here. I trained with treats in the beginning...now I don't even have treats on me when I train. My dog will still do everything I ask.

I'm not trying to get you to train with treats, just to let you know that there are other, better training methods out there. And if you truly want to do some higher level work with him...you don't want to do anything that might kill drive. Compulsion has a way of teaching the dog that its better to do NOTHING than to do the WRONG thing...and when they figure that out, its really hard to get them out of that frame of mind.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think your puppy's growling because he's frustrated. He probably doesn't want to do OB while he's playing with the hula hoop. I had the same issue (not growling, because I wasn't correcting, but obvious frustration) when I tried to introduce OB routine into the flirt pole games. So compromise is in order: make the OB fun! You can still reinforce the stay command by not letting the puppy rush out the door until you use a release word. Teach the puppy 'drop it' and how to place toys in your hand - this is still training him, but it's way more fun for him. He should be having fun at his young age


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I'm sure that if you'd ever seen a dog trained by their methods, and a dog trained by newer, positive reinforcement methods work...you'd see the difference immediately.


100% agreed. If your dog was more mature then I'd see using a toy but at his age his drive isn't developed enough to truly want to work for a ball. Pups will be more motivated to work for food. I mean show me a video of a good trainer trying to train a pup with a toy? 

Also every time you correct him you are killing drive. The toy gets less and less fun for him every time he's corrected.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Depends on your definition of successful. And in truth...I haven't seen anyone use those methods in a very very long time. There are a lot of stories that go around about the Monks and their dogs, some good, some bad. They got popular by writing those books, producing decent dogs (I personally know a one year old New Skete dog...not impressive).
> 
> Their methods are compulsion, which most will tell you is not the favored way to train a dog. If you're looking to do sport, or any higher level training/trialing with your pup, I would highly suggest you stop using those methods and read some other books of more recently successful trainers that are actually proven. Sorry but the monks don't trial their dogs, they don't test them, they don't show them. IMO...their methods are drive killing and are only considered successful because the dog becomes a piece of furniture that doesn't want to do anything that might cause a negative response...which is perfect for an American household who want a stuffed animal.
> 
> I'm sure that if you'd ever seen a dog trained by their methods, and a dog trained by newer, positive reinforcement methods work...you'd see the difference immediately.


Have you read the Monks books? I've only read the How to be Your Dog's Best Friend (revised and updated), but it's not solely compulsion and they don't break the dogs' spirit. The section about puppies was purely positive and they didn't say not to use food with adults, but just not to become dependent on it. I probably wouldn't use their methods to train a competition dog, because in competition you want the dog working in high drive. In real life however, a calmer state of mind is usually more desirable. You want your dog to happily obey you, but that can be achieved in a variety of ways.

They also really focus on a good solid relationship between the owner and dog, which I like and I think may be part of the problem in Mr. D's case. He's treating the puppy like an adult and it's causing confusion and maybe a little distrust. With puppies (and even adult dogs) I always first assume that if he isn't following my commands, he is confused or unfocused rather than assuming he's _choosing_ to disobey me. Maybe he doesn't understand the exercise, maybe he's bored or distracted, maybe I was unclear. Any of these explanations give me a positive direction to move in, usually by backing up and breaking things down into smaller pieces or moving to a less distracting environment/higher reward/more energy from me,to make it easier for him to focus. The moment you decide the dog is deliberately disobeying you, you're much more likely to let anger ruin your training session. At least that has been my experience, but I tend to have a bit of a hot temper anyway 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mostly I agree with everyone else, put the prong on the shelf for now. 

It is ok to use a toy rather than treats if you intend to train that way, but you have to make that toy the biggest, bestest thing in the world for the puppy and only given to him while training to mark positives. Food rewards are simpler because you can vary them, you can give a little or a lot to mark a party for really getting something. And you can have high value treats as well as ordinary treats. 

Treats are somthing that eventually you will phase out, maybe not completely. Lots of people continue to use treats when training new things. I can or not, just depends. I always praise when I treat, and eventually praise is enough to let the dog know he did the right thing, even if it is brand-new.

What I did not see anyone mention is this up-command, that you said is when you want him to jump. Why are you doing this with a 4 month old puppy. Let a puppy be a puppy. Let him run and play and jump. Do not force him to run or jump. His body is maturing, and shepherds, even working line dogs, are prone to hip, elbow, and back problems. Some of these are genetic. Some can be influenced by environment. I would not train any jumping with a youngster. 

This should be fun for you and your puppy, if it is not, than something is wrong and that is often as not on the human end of the leash, after all we are asking a dog to live in a human world. If that isn't happening the way we want it, we need to try other methods to communicate with the dog. 

I let my 4 month old pups just be puppies. I might sign them up for puppy class and take them once a week to the class and there we learn to sit and down, and we socialize with the other owners, we are introduced to the tunnel, and we keep things light and quickly move from one thing to another, without dwelling on anything too long. The rest of the week, I don't do any training. I let them play. I play with them. If house training is not complete, than I am very careful with them in the house to prevent accidents. 

I think WL people are very careful not to push the youngsters into too much obedience too fast, and to play games that will bring out their drives like tug, and playing with a flirt pole. One of my buddies with WL dogs, waits until they are 10 months old, puts a prong on them, at that point, and does all their obedience training in a week. That works for him. 

I don't use prong or e-collars, I stick with the martingales, and I don't push puppies too fast, we just take our time, and by the time they are 1 or 2 at the latest, they are behaved enought to earn an AKC title, and a CGC. Not everyone is willing to wait that long, and I get that. But my point is, your puppy is a baby, and he will become hard to handle, if you label him defiant, stubborn, and correct him for not being perfect.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Bequavious said:


> With puppies (and even adult dogs) I always first assume that if he isn't following my commands, he is confused or unfocused rather than assuming he's _choosing_ to disobey me. Maybe he doesn't understand the exercise, maybe he's bored or distracted, maybe I was unclear.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
This ^^ is such a refreshing statement!!! Very rarely do I see that stated on this forum, but I suspect it reflects a HUGE precent of the training problems posted. Major Kudos to you!!!!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Bequavious said:


> Have you read the Monks books? I've only read the How to be Your Dog's Best Friend (revised and updated), but it's not solely compulsion and they don't break the dogs' spirit. The section about puppies was purely positive and they didn't say not to use food with adults, but just not to become dependent on it. I probably wouldn't use their methods to train a competition dog, because in competition you want the dog working in high drive. In real life however, a calmer state of mind is usually more desirable. You want your dog to happily obey you, but that can be achieved in a variety of ways.


Yes, I've read them. I read a bunch of them before I got my dog. One of the things I was interested in was their "puppy testing." You can look on this forum how people feel about their puppy test.

The truth is...even a slight bit of compulsion at 4 months old can break a dog's spirit and drive. It depends on the dog and how easily it can bounce back, but you can very quickly destroy a lot of its drive at that age. The monks do train pets...and its fine if that's what you want, but OP mentioned doing some sort of sport/work so my recommendation is not to use those methods. The fact is...none of us have any idea if they do or don't break the dog's spirit from reading a book. No one in their right mind is going to write, "we did this so we could break the dog's spirit and make it behave no matter what." But from what I've seen (and I started training my boy with compulsion) its very easy to destroy a dog's spirit with those methods.

I'm lucky that I have a pretty hard dog and it didn't crush his spirit. He still loves to work and I think I made the switch to positive methods early enough that it didn't affect him too much. I have no problem with how he works...but if I had started some drive building earlier, it would be even better. I've seen plenty of dogs that have been trained in the way my boy was (at the club I'm at) that have had their drive/spirit destroyed and can't even get excited about happy happy rally-o.

There's a lot of older books that talk about older methods that have no mention of the negative effects of those methods...does that make them not have any? For instance...Schutzhund: Theory and Training Methods by Susan Barwig is considered a very good book to read if you're interested in Schutzhund. But at this point I know of very few people that use many of the methods described in that book to teach some of the more advanced obedience.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mr. D said:


> Why am I not using food? Because I read a few books from the Monks of New Skete. I prefer Franklin not learn tricks for treats, but to understand fully and completely what is expected.


Yes, the Monks are very biased against using food in training. They are very old school, and although some people still feel that way, dog training has moved on leaps and bounds since then.  I totally get that you want your dog to understand fully and completely what is expected of him, and not have to rely on having treats on hand in order for him to comply. But as others have pointed out, there is an error in your thinking. Using food in training, _done right_, will not create that reliance. 

I used TONS of food when training my dogs from the time they came home as puppies. With Halo, Keefer, and Dena one thing I did heavily was to "capture" behaviors they offered up spontaneously, anything they did that I liked - looking at me, laying on the floor, coming towards me.....), marking it either verbally ("yes!") or with a clicker, and then giving a treat. I wasn't attempting to train any particular behavior, I wasn't giving a command (which they of course had not learned yet anyway), there was no "wrong" answer because I wasn't telling them to do anything in the first place. The more I reinforced these things by randomly rewarding them, the more my puppy offered them up. This was the foundation for "watch", and "come", and "down", and soon I was able to name these behaviors and put them on cue. 

How successful was this technique? Well, we got Halo at 10 weeks old, and I started doing this several times a day, even with part of her lunch and dinner kibble - making her work for her meals. By her 2nd week of puppy class at 14 weeks old, she would lay on the floor, off leash in a room full of people and other puppies, (a HIGHLY distracting environment!) and stare at me, with a treat on the floor in front of her. She knew that remaining in a down and ignoring the food and looking at me instead would earn her a reward. Her attention was so good that I was stopped by a woman in the bathroom after class, who asked me how I got my puppy to be so focused. And she is STILL very focused, even though I don't need to give her treats for it anymore, it's become second nature. 

I hope you get past your reluctance to use food, because it's a great way to build foundation behaviors. I also agree with ditching the prong collar. At 4 months old your training should be very motivational. Later, when he's older, and commands have been fully learned and generalized to a variety of circumstances and proofed at varying levels of difficulty and distraction, it's perfect fine to correct him for non-compliance. But I guarantee that at his age you're nowhere near that point. The more you can make him WANT to work with you now, the more you make training fun for both of you, and the clearer and more consistent you can be, the fewer corrections you'll need later. It does sound like he's probably confused and frustrated, and that's why he's grumbling. 



Mr. D said:


> I would like to work him. I don't know in what. I've learned that he has working lines in him. I'd prefer not to kill his drive.


If that's the case, I'd strongly suggest checking out the Michael Ellis videos that MRL posted above. You'll see that he uses both food and toys as motivators and rewards.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Yes, I've read them. I read a bunch of them before I got my dog. One of the things I was interested in was their "puppy testing." You can look on this forum how people feel about their puppy test.
> 
> The truth is...even a slight bit of compulsion at 4 months old can break a dog's spirit and drive. It depends on the dog and how easily it can bounce back, but you can very quickly destroy a lot of its drive at that age. The monks do train pets...and its fine if that's what you want, but OP mentioned doing some sort of sport/work so my recommendation is not to use those methods. The fact is...none of us have any idea if they do or don't break the dog's spirit from reading a book. No one in their right mind is going to write, "we did this so we could break the dog's spirit and make it behave no matter what." But from what I've seen (and I started training my boy with compulsion) its very easy to destroy a dog's spirit with those methods.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I wouldn't recommend compulsion with a puppy either and the one book I read by the monks definitely said to use just positive reinforcement with puppies and keep it fun and short. Maybe that's new to their revised addition though? The reason I said they don't break the dogs' spirits is because of all the anecdotes about dogs that went through their residency program. I suppose it's possible that those stories are the minority, but I guess it seemed unlikely that people who see their dogs primarily as friends would happily recommend trainers that turned them into dreary robots :/

Yeah the OP hadn't mentioned the sport work when I posted (took me too long to type lol!) With a working dog I would definitely look at Leerburg though and I think somebody posted some of their videos earlier. I feel like they have a great transition from working with treats, to toys, to using corrections as the dog learns and matures so you get a dog with beautiful drive and competition precision.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Lilie said:


> This ^^ is such a refreshing statement!!! Very rarely do I see that stated on this forum, but I suspect it reflects a HUGE precent of the training problems posted. Major Kudos to you!!!!


D'awww you're making me blush 


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

I did say I've only worked with adult gsds. Franklin being our first puppy. I want him to succeed. I want him to be the best dog he can be. I see a lot of potential with this little furball. 
After reading some of the replies, it seems I'm expecting more of an adult. I don't sense and see distrust from him. But I do see the frustration. Frustration can lead to distrust, and I don't want to break the bond we have now. 
I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mr. D said:


> I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.


Well here you go then! 






This was something I did with Halo when she was a puppy - it teaches impulse control around food, which is a great thing. 

And since a picture is worth a thousand words, here she is in that week 2 puppy class I mentioned above:










Does she look treat focused?  And here I have treats in both hands, but she's clearly focusing on my face:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mr. D said:


> After reading some of the replies, it seems I'm expecting more of an adult. I don't sense and see distrust from him. But I do see the frustration. *Frustration can lead to distrust*, and I don't want to break the bond we have now.


Absolutely, and good for you for recognizing that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well here you go then!
> 
> "It's Yer Choice" - YouTube
> 
> ...


This is what they were trying to do with us in class. Make the puppy ignore food on the floor, or put it in your hands, and give it when the dog looks at your face. Games. Yes, the dog is focused on your face, to get the treat in your hand. He has learned to open the hand, he needs to look at your face, make eye contact. Personally, I don't like this. I have done it. I just don't like it. With any of my dogs, if I have a broken dish or a dropped pill bottle, I can just say Leave It, and they do. 

Treats are great to start with but when you start phasing them out, that is when you can get an even better response, because the reward is intermittent. I would hope that the goal is always to graduate to simply verbal praise. 

I would not worry about a dog who is food motivated. It can gnerally be transfered to praise and or play motivated. The idea is that you want to build a bond, on a strong foundation, and food can help you get your puppy's attention, it can help you mark good behavior, and mark praise words. As that bond increases, food isn't nearly as important to your pup.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

you've got a smart baby, but 4 months is a baby. No reason to use pain to train.

Many of us use prong collars, but not just to punish a dog, and certainly not on a puppy.

Please look into a new trainer. Preferably one good with this breed.

If a 4 month old has been driven to growl, you've gone too far imho. 

Start over with treats ( and, yes, you will see that a happy puppy learns quickly and repetition, repetition, repetition, will see the day when obedience is constant whether treats are there or not).


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

deleting this per poster, so she can edit the article better


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## Redrider469 (Jul 19, 2013)

Mr. D;4385809
I'm not 100% against the use of treat. I just didn't want him to be treat focused.[/QUOTE said:


> The trainer I use says treat are perfectly acceptable at this point. You have plenty of time to train your dog. Let him enjoy being a puppy, treats and all. As he gets older, you can ease off the treats and switch to a praise based method.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

Suka said:


> deleting this per poster, so she can edit the article better


It was a good article. Hurry bring it back.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'll let Suka re-post her link, but here's another great article, also by Pat Miller, and also from the Whole Dog Journal - it's about how to fade lures, prompts, and treats: Advanced Dog Training Methods: How to Fade Prompts and Lures - Whole Dog Journal Article



> Using treats in training is not “bribery.” In early stages of training as described above, treats are lures; after a dog knows how to perform a behavior, when given after the fact to reinforce that behavior, treats are rewards.
> 
> Still, there’s value in minimizing the use of treats so your dog doesn’t expect one every time she performs. When your dog gets a treat every time she sits (what’s called a continuous schedule of reinforcement), she comes to expect one every time she sits. Ask her to sit a few times without a reinforcer, and she may stop sitting on cue because it’s no longer rewarding to her to do so. When an animal stops performing a behavior, it’s called extinction.
> 
> *When you gradually reduce the frequency of treats so that she gets them randomly and occasionally but not every time (in what’s called a random schedule of reinforcement) she’ll keep sitting when you ask because she knows it will pay off eventually – like putting quarters in a slot machine. Putting a behavior on a random schedule makes it very resistant to extinction and makes it more likely that your dog will respond when you need her to, even if you’ve run out of treats.*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Another good article about luring, shaping, and capturing: CCSC Dog Talk: Capturing, Shaping, Modeling, Luring

Obviously, I train my dogs to do many things on cue, but I also really like to train several default behaviors too, and that's where capturing is really handy. A default behavior is what your dog will fall back on in the absence of any cue by you. So I train my dogs to look at me with the "watch" command, but I don't want them only paying attention to me when I tell them to, I also want them to look at me when I HAVEN'T specifically asked them to. Starting out by marking and rewarding random eye contact will increase that behavior, and then I can use it in a variety of ways because the dog understands by then that this is behavior with a strong history of reinforcement - I expect them to look at me after I put their food bowls on the floor and wait for me to release them to eat, they have to sit and look at me before I open the door and release them to go outside or to come back in, to jump in and out of the car, before I throw the ball for them, any number of things. I don't need to use treats at this point, even though I initially used them to train this default attention, I use real life rewards - anything the dog values.

That's why I like the It's Yer Choice game - in addition to a "leave it" cue, they learn the default behavior of impulse control around food. Just because I have it that doesn't mean they'll get any, and if I do decide to give them some, they know the rules about how that's going to work.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Half the time I am reading treats, and half the time I am reading threats. And you know what? It works both ways. LOL. 

... makes it resistant to extinction, so your dog will be more likely to respond when you need her to, even if you've run out of threats. 

Karma! Darn it, Come! you pain the butt, or I am going to, uhm, going to, uhm, uh, well uh 

Oh, here you are, good girl!













Must be a full moon tonight.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

A lot of great information in this thread; I just want to add an article for the OP, who is worried that using treats will make his/her dog dependent on food. That can actually happen if done wrong but give this article a good read to understand how it is done correctly and hopefully understand why it works. I hope you can access the entire article.

Common Dog Training Mistakes - Whole Dog Journal Article


*



The top five errors committed when training your dog with positive techniques and positive dog training methods.

Click to expand...

*


> *Mistake #1: “Positive = permissive”*
> 
> *Mistake #2: Dependency on luring*
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Another good article about luring, shaping, and capturing: CCSC Dog Talk: Capturing, Shaping, Modeling, Luring
> 
> Obviously, I train my dogs to do many things on cue, but I also really like to train several default behaviors too, and that's where capturing is really handy. A default behavior is what your dog will fall back on in the absence of any cue by you. So I train my dogs to look at me with the "watch" command, but I don't want them only paying attention to me when I tell them to, I also want them to look at me when I HAVEN'T specifically asked them to. Starting out by marking and rewarding random eye contact will increase that behavior, and then I can use it in a variety of ways because the dog understands by then that this is behavior with a strong history of reinforcement - I expect them to look at me after I put their food bowls on the floor and wait for me to release them to eat, they have to sit and look at me before I open the door and release them to go outside or to come back in, to jump in and out of the car, before I throw the ball for them, any number of things. I don't need to use treats at this point, even though I initially used them to train this default attention, I use real life rewards - anything the dog values.
> 
> That's why I like the It's Yer Choice game - in addition to a "leave it" cue, they learn the default behavior of impulse control around food. Just because I have it that doesn't mean they'll get any, and if I do decide to give them some, they know the rules about how that's going to work.


Ok, so the other night, I was sitting there watching old Hawaii 5-Os, and eating my pork chops and greasy potatoes, and Babs is sitting there in front of me. Usually I give her my plate when I am done, very rarely I will give her some while I am eating. But she normally sits right there in front of me waiting for the plate. And she watches my face to find out exactly when I am going to decide to give it to her, because sometimes the food is totally gone and she just gets to lick it off, and sometimes I leave some. I think she thinks if she can catch my eye, I will leave a nice chunk for her. But maybe that is givng her too much credit. Of course she did wink at me yesterday. 

Well anyway, when I did stand up, my leather sandles were in front of me on the floor. And she had drooled heavily into one of them, ICK! 

Anyhow, so would this, teaching impulse control remove the drooling?

I mean, I can tell her to go lay down, or go to the study, or go to my bed, and she will. Even with the food she will leave if I tell her to. I don't mind her being there because it's not like she is trying to steal the food, or breathing on it or anything. And I can put it on the coffee table and go and get a coke, and she won't go near it. Would this translate into impulse control?

The drooling is new, though. And yesterday, I went through the whole process of making popcorn, shaking a pot over the burner, and all, and went and sat down, and then I had to call her. This has NEVER happened before. She comes trotting in if she hears the fridge, or if she hears a can being opened, or a package being rustled. Maybe she's sick.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I hate a dog staring at my food and drooling so I never feed of my plate. I think it is important to have the line between mine and the dogs. Then the dog can just be content and relax in its bed rather than worry about whats on my plate. If i want attention i can just call the dog and give it a treat.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

MadLab said:


> I hate a dog staring at my food and drooling so I never feed of my plate. I think it is important to have the line between mine and the dogs. Then the dog can just be content and relax in its bed rather than worry about whats on my plate. If i want attention i can just call the dog and give it a treat.


LoL Madlab, I have this pet peeve too! :wild:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MadLab said:


> I hate a dog staring at my food and drooling so I never feed of my plate. I think it is important to have the line between mine and the dogs. Then the dog can just be content and relax in its bed rather than worry about whats on my plate. If i want attention i can just call the dog and give it a treat.


I live alone. An audio book playing makes it more home-like. I grew up in a large family. But, having a warm blooded critter present at meals, just makes living alone better. Don't get me wrong, I like having my own place. But some things are just 100% better because of the dogs. Like eating. And coming home in the middle of the night after watching a serial killer movie with my mother. 

Usually Babs sits on her easy chair in the study while I listen to a book, play solitare, and eat dinner. She waits there until I am done when I put the plate on the floor. Sometimes I share, but she isn't an overt beggar.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

Alot to injest. I'm looking over and reading into the things posted. Thanks!


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

*Isn't it wiser to achieve submission from pup?*

I was under the impression that it is important for an owner to fully submit his dog in order to achieve compliance in training by any method including marker training.
If I let the pup believe that everything he does is because is his will then in tough situations how would he listen? If he just does not wish to comply, how can you change that without his submission?
Shouldn't it be my way is rewarding and you way is correction?


martemchik said:


> Point is...you asked why your dog is growling. He clearly doesn't like/accept the prong collar and the type of training that is going on. The advice is to remove said collar and work with a different one. Once he gets bigger, more driven, you can go to a prong collar in order to help you handle him.


Thanks


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

santiagoamr said:


> I was under the impression that it is important for an owner to fully submit his dog in order to achieve compliance in training by any method including marker training.
> If I let the pup believe that everything he does is because is his will then in tough situations how would he listen? If he just does not wish to comply, how can you change that without his submission?
> Shouldn't it be my way is rewarding and you way is correction?
> 
> ...


I don't know who told or taught you this, but that's a terrible way to train a dog. A dog should want to listen and work with it's handler, not fear him/her.


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

*Please bear me*



Lucy Dog said:


> I don't know who told or taught you this, but that's a terrible way to train a dog. A dog should want to listen and work with it's handler, not fear him/her.


I am the kind of person that needs to fully understand so I debate a lot i order to learn and have conviction on that knowledge, but since I know I do not know anything about dog behavior and training I really want to learn.
Trainer which I know is successful since I have watched his dogs and they obey without hesitation, are always off leash and zero aggressive. He trains mostly GSD's and I can say he is hard with them (the reason I did not give my dog to him for training). I also read a lot of guides, and books, and using deduction (again my deduction may well be very flawed since I lack experience and do not know how dogs "think"), arrived to a conclusion that if I only use positive reinforcement, the dog might choose one day not to listen, like if he is bored or under a stress full situation, and for me this can't be an option since if the dog launches at someone or to the street because if she disobeyed it would be something that could have very bad consequences, like my dog getting hurt or her hurting someone else.
Also I've been doing mostly (I do not use prong collars and hope never have to) positive reinforcement, which is very cool and simple. But sometimes when I give a command that she has repeated in different situations and even without reward, and having her attention on me, she simply chooses not to acknowledge it, except with a correction, and then she does obey again. When she sees me that I am about to correct her she immediately complies on that session. SO from that I arrived at the conclusion that sometimes dogs do not care, no matter how much love you give them or positive reinforcement. Again I might be wrong and have expected to much to soon. Here another question arises, if I'm wrong , How many weeks or months does it take to get your dogs 100% compliance with only positive reinforcement?
Thanks a lot for your earlier response
Santiago


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

no one said to train using only positive methods. the advice was given is that the op should train his dog using motivation/positive instead of using punishment. when you motivate your dog it will want to work for you. you wont see a dog sit or down or come with speed and gusto if it fears the owner. the flashy obedience comes from a dog that is motivated. after you train your dog certain commands then you can "proof" it by punishing the dog if it doesnt listen. if i tell my dog to sit and he doesnt sit i will pop his prong collar. sit means sit. the difference is that the dog thinks that obedience is fun but it is NOT optional. training using dominance, fear, pain teaches the dog that commands are not optional but they are also not fun.


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

Also what I am doing now is something that I do not like to do, because now my puppy is not as rambunctious as she used to be: When she is out of her crate or out of the patio, which is almost all the time except for meals and sleep, I have her on a leash, when we walk around the house I have her a little tight just to allow her to heal and head movement and when we are still I give her the full length also when she goes potty. I do not like this but it has helped with her not play jumping on the smaller dogs, cat or on guests and children, which is a big concern, but still it just feels like she has no freedom to be a puppy, she just turned 4 months and on the first 3 weeks in the house I kept her collar and leash free, then the breeder came to visit us and recommended me to put on a collar, and then the trainer recommended me to put on a leash, I am afraid that the next advise is going to be to crate her all the time. I want her to explore and socialize but I do not want her to hurt children, or my cat or my mothers small dogs. If she is not on a leash when I go to another room she runs off to greet my mother and jump on her and her dogs or when II play with my cat she wants to play with her to and it scares the cat. 
Wow this is more difficult that I imagined!!
I can't enroll her in classes (there are none where I live), I am about to move to another town, in 4 weeks. 
HELP!!


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

*That makes more sense!*



boomer11 said:


> no one said to train using only positive methods. the advice was given is that the op should train his dog using motivation/positive instead of using punishment. when you motivate your dog it will want to work for you. you wont see a dog sit or down or come with speed and gusto if it fears the owner. the flashy obedience comes from a dog that is motivated. after you train your dog certain commands then you can "proof" it by punishing the dog if it doesnt listen. if i tell my dog to sit and he doesnt sit i will pop his prong collar. sit means sit. the difference is that the dog thinks that obedience is fun but it is NOT optional. training using dominance, fear, pain teaches the dog that commands are not optional but they are also not fun.


How would I know and at what age would it be appropriate to reinforce commands? Am I expecting too much from 1 week training on a 4 month old puppy?
Again 
Thanks a lot


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You know when you know. That's the best I can say it. Problem with that is that they might know what "sit" means, but they might not hear you at the moment or understand you because they're distracted. The distraction part...is the handlers fault. You put the dog in a situation where it wasn't ready to be in. You can't practice sits at home, in a quiet room, take the dog to the dog park, and expect it to sit when you say sit because there is so much more going on.

I don't train 100% positive, but the only time I correct is when I know my dog knows a command and he just blew it off. I'm 100% certain he heard me...because I say his name, he looks at me, and I say the command. That being said, my dog is 3 years old.

The point is, many people have different ideas of "trained dog." I know its a bit bad, but there are different types of training. To make it simple, I split them into sport and pet. You see a sport dog...Schutzhund, agility, AKC obedience, ect...it is expect that dog WANTS to do the work, is happy doing the work, and is allowed to make its own decisions that are hopefully the right decisions that are what the handler wants from it. You see pet dogs...calmer, and truly not really allowed to make its own decisions. Sure, they probably know a lot of stuff, they know tricks, they understand commands, but they just do it because they're asked...and many times...because they've been taught to do it because if they don't do it, there will be punishment. Again, not saying that this is how all dogs are, but in general you do see a lot of this. I can't remember how many times people said their dogs are better trained than mine and then the moment they say a command or raise a hand the ears drop and the tail tucks. It's like...well great, the dog knows how to sit, but its clearly not doing it because it wants to.

One of the biggest test of this is the recall. Some dogs, when called, run 100% full speed to their handler. Others slowly walk to delay anything that might happen to them on the other end. Now, some of this is natural and dogs will just not show that much exuberance while training. But 95% of the time its because of the method that dog was trained with. Punishment when it didn't come because it didn't understand what was expected...well why would it want to hurry up and come towards something that confused it in the first place.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

perfect example in the video below. even around distractions the dog comes when called. he comes quick. he is excited to come. he'd rather come then play with his friends. the dog is 6 months in this vid. hard to get that with fear/punishment based training. 

20131011_162303.mp4 - YouTube


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

martemchik said:


> One of the biggest test of this is the recall. Some dogs, when called, run 100% full speed to their handler. Others slowly walk to delay anything that might happen to them on the other end. Now, some of this is natural and dogs will just not show that much exuberance while training. But 95% of the time its because of the method that dog was trained with. Punishment when it didn't come because it didn't understand what was expected...well why would it want to hurry up and come towards something that confused it in the first place.


Hey, my Gretel does this she runs full speed outside and sometimes inside the house, but she sometimes runs past me about 15 feet and sometimes about 1 or 2 feet from me, I believe it is because of her exuberance and not because she is blowing me off.
Thank you


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

*So I was doing good.*



boomer11 said:


> perfect example in the video below. even around distractions the dog comes when called. he comes quick. he is excited to come. he'd rather come then play with his friends. the dog is 6 months in this vid. hard to get that with fear/punishment based training.
> 
> 20131011_162303.mp4 - YouTube


Before I started with having her on the leash all the time and correcting her? I am going to revert, but still I have the same problem, I am afraid she will kill the chihuhua or the yorkie, or mess the relationship with my cat, that has really come a long way, the cat isn't scared anymore except when Gretel tries to play with her, I don't want the cat to start scratching Gretel again. What can I do? Any ideas? I understand now that I have to go to the basics and reinforce her focus and name, but how can I teach her to be calm around the dogs and cat?
Thanks
Santiago


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

martemchik said:


> You know when you know. That's the best I can say it. Problem with that is that they might know what "sit" means, but they might not hear you at the moment or understand you because they're distracted. The distraction part...is the handlers fault. You put the dog in a situation where it wasn't ready to be in. You can't practice sits at home, in a quiet room, take the dog to the dog park, and expect it to sit when you say sit because there is so much more going on.
> 
> I don't train 100% positive, but the only time I correct is when I know my dog knows a command and he just blew it off. I'm 100% certain he heard me...because I say his name, he looks at me, and I say the command. That being said, my dog is 3 years old.
> 
> ...


This is how I know Franklin chooses not to do so. I had him when he was 2 weeks old. Around five weeks or so was when I started really building our foundation. Did he know everything then? No. He wasnt expected to either. But I taught him to leave it and no bite. It took about a week or so. Everyday. I didn't use food as reinforcement, positive touching and verbally marked. When was about 7-10 weeks, I started teaching down, sit, get and bring it. Using his motivation and his want to please, I feel I was very successful. I did sessions with him twice a day, kept them very short,, and played the rest with him. Now at 4 months is when I decided to introduce the prong collar for corrections at the the recommendations of Petsmart. She teaches Cgc, and a bunch of other things. Her classes are always full. She always brings along her two dogs, a Doberman and something else. They are well trained. She uses them in her classes to help teach other dogs. So I can't completely dismiss her. 

When he started growling at the corrections, I felt it was because he was just resisting a new element to our sessions. 
Like you said, you know when you. It could also be I'm completely wrong.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This is towards Mr. D and santiago.

It's very hard for the rest of us to believe that your 4 month old pups have commands down 100%. Although I believe that the dog knows what sit means and what's expected, you might not realize that something is distracting the pup at that time. A smell, a noise, a movement of a leaf, whatever. And you just don't realize that even though the dog is looking at you, something else is on its mind. Its something that's completely normal for a puppy. Like its been stated, they don't have very long attention spans. In an obedience training session...your dog realizes that things are happening and it has probably learned at this point that you'll be running through the gamut of what its learned, so it will offer up those things. What they don't yet realize is that it will be expected of them ALL the time, no matter what is going on around them. This takes time, and although it takes a lot of training, it also takes maturity on the dog's part...which is something that's crazy to expect from a 4 month old.

Again...a 4 month old SHOULD be running really fast at you. You're its life right now. All it knows. The only thing that will protect that dog. So why wouldn't it come towards you 100%. The fact that the dog runs past you though, means it doesn't understand what a recall is. Or you're just training a very lax recall. Although you might think your dog is a brave GSD, the truth is right now it still needs you for protection and it has not completely learned that it can do things independently. Soon enough, you'll see when your dog blows you off and decides to make its own decisions.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

What I hope most people are hearing about training a 4 month old puppy....

Is that that MOST important thing is for them to be socialized, friendly, loving life and LOVING to listen, learn and be with their humans.

The BEST TRAINED pups at this age have neither a leash or collar on!!!!

Because we shouldn't even be thinking of 'obedience' and 'forcing/making' them do what we want.

Our main goal should be getting them to SO love to listen and learn and be with us that they are falling all over themselves to figure out the next 'game' we are teaching them (sit? down? heeling? all can be a GAME!).

Those that lose focus of that being the goal with a PUPPY are headed down a bad training path with a dog that won't think, won't offer new behaviors, and certainly HATE training in the end cause it's so horrible and the human is a big meanie. Hey, who want to hang around and be involved in something that isn't fun with a person who is MEAN!

#1 Training goal needs to be our pups attitude OFF leash, nothing else should matter.

Cause once you have that you can teach your pup/dog ANYTHING. 

Did people bother to watch the videos/links I posted? From some of the top trainers in the WORLD! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

Results from their dogs with the drive, focus and LOVE for the 'game' off leash?

LOOK AT this dogs attitude? No correction using the leash/collar but it's absolutely 'in the game and learning CAUSE IT WANTS TO !'





 




 
and cause I bet you think tricks are a waste of time (they are NOT) this is her dogs 'working'


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Another thing to keep in mind: when you have a 4 month old puppy who you believe has been obedience trained, inevitably you're going to be very surprised when the puppy goes through the normal development stage where they test their boundaries. You're probably going to think there's something wrong with the dog, who by then is much larger and resembles a dog, but is still in fact very much a puppy. Please take your time with these youngsters, and don't expect too much from them too soon.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee........GREAT POST!!!!!


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

I never said he listens 100%. I know he's a puppy. Everything you guys have said a happy puppy exhibits are the things I see with Franklin. I just started with the collar and leash. He walked super well on leash and off leash. Maybe I'm not explaining well enough what I see. Or maybe I have and it's being ignored. I have discontinued the use of the collar during our sessions for now. When I get the chance I'm going to talk to the trainer and ask why it was her recommendation. I've also looked into the clicker with food.
One question I have, I could Google, but I wanted to see what others think or have tried. But can clicker training work with a verbal and physical reinforcement rather than food? 



martemchik said:


> This is towards Mr. D and santiago.
> 
> It's very hard for the rest of us to believe that your 4 month old pups have commands down 100%. Although I believe that the dog knows what sit means and what's expected, you might not realize that something is distracting the pup at that time. A smell, a noise, a movement of a leaf, whatever. And you just don't realize that even though the dog is looking at you, something else is on its mind. Its something that's completely normal for a puppy. Like its been stated, they don't have very long attention spans. In an obedience training session...your dog realizes that things are happening and it has probably learned at this point that you'll be running through the gamut of what its learned, so it will offer up those things. What they don't yet realize is that it will be expected of them ALL the time, no matter what is going on around them. This takes time, and although it takes a lot of training, it also takes maturity on the dog's part...which is something that's crazy to expect from a 4 month old.
> 
> Again...a 4 month old SHOULD be running really fast at you. You're its life right now. All it knows. The only thing that will protect that dog. So why wouldn't it come towards you 100%. The fact that the dog runs past you though, means it doesn't understand what a recall is. Or you're just training a very lax recall. Although you might think your dog is a brave GSD, the truth is right now it still needs you for protection and it has not completely learned that it can do things independently. Soon enough, you'll see when your dog blows you off and decides to make its own decisions.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> Another thing to keep in mind: when you have a 4 month old puppy who you believe has been obedience trained, inevitably you're going to be very surprised when the puppy goes through the normal development stage where they test their boundaries. You're probably going to think there's something wrong with the dog, who by then is much larger and resembles a dog, but is still in fact very much a puppy. Please take your time with these youngsters, and don't expect too much from them too soon.


Thanks for this reminder.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mr. D said:


> One question I have, I could Google, but I wanted to see what others think or have tried. But can clicker training work with a verbal and physical reinforcement rather than food?


It depends on how reinforcing those things are for your puppy.The click always means that a reward is coming, and it should be something meaningful for the dog, not what the human thinks _should_ be the most reinforcing. The reason food is used so frequently is that it's a primary reinforcer, meaning that you don't have to teach your dog to value it since dogs are born needing to eat! Praise is a secondary reinforcer, which usually gains value when initially paired with a primary reinforcer, since words are not inherently rewarding to a dog. Touch is fine, although more for some dogs than others, who may actually find it annoying or distracting. 

Once a behavior is fully learned and generalized to a variety of situations, circumstances, and environments, you are no longer actually training it anymore, so you also don't need to click and treat each time either. If you pair praise with the click/treat, once you start to fade out the food rewards (or play, if you're using toys instead) by moving to a variable reinforcement schedule, you can continue with secondary reinforcers such as praise. 

Some people prefer to use a verbal marker instead of a clicker, usually "yes!".


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Why are you so against food? Do you think it's cheating and makes you a bad trainer? Judging from your posts you're already pretty bad so just use food, you can't possibly get any worst  

When dogs grow up they could like praise or toys more than food but puppies (like children) love treats! If we took two puppies and you trained yours with praise and pets and I trained with yummy treats I bet mine would be much more eager and more focused to learn. All kids love treats!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

If I was in kindergarten and some kid got a lollipop and all I got was a high five I'd be pissed!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Mr. D said:


> One question I have, I could Google, but I wanted to see what others think or have tried. But can clicker training work with a verbal and physical reinforcement rather than food?


A clicker is a marker tool. You can substitute a word for that marker (many do). The good part about a clicker is that its very exact, and if you have the skills to mark at the right moment, you can really help your dog learn quickly. The bad part about the clicker is that you always need to have a clicker on you. I use "yes" as a marker word. My dog knows (from training) that when I say "yes" he's doing what I need him to. It's the same idea as clicking. After I say "yes" I have time to take out a reward and give it to him...and once he hears "yes" he knows a reward is coming.

The clicker IS the verbal reinforcement. It just allows you time to then provide some sort of praise (food or physical) to your dog. The reason food is used has been explained...puppies love treats and food and will do things for it. It will take you a while to figure out if your dog is more interested in your petting than food. My dog doesn't need to be pet. He just doesn't care about it. Even as a pup. So for him, if all he ever got from me when he did something good was a pet, he wouldn't really want to do anything. The likelihood is that your dog will be just like that and won't just do thing to get pet. I'm assuming he gets pet and played with on a regular basis by others and so its not like he needs the extra petting from you...especially because he doesn't have to work for the other petting.

Not sure if you've looked into clicker training. But step one is to teach the dog that the click means good and reward. So you pretty much sit there clicking and then handing over treats. The dog then knows when it hears a click, its getting a treat. So then once it learns that, you start teaching things. You say X, dog does X, you click, you give treat. Dog realizes if it listens and does what you said it gets a treat. The faster it does it, the faster it gets the reward.

I currently use a toy/tug for a reward. Saying "yes" gives me time to get the toy out and reward my dog for the correct behavior. So I mark the behavior with a "yes" so that the dog knows exactly what is expected, and then I can provide a reward.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a great article about reinforcers: Using food and other primary reinforcers to train and socialize your dog



> Primary Reinforcers
> 
> Essentially, any sort of reward that has to do with the gratification of physical needs is said to be a primary reinforcer. Primary reinforcers are further differentiated by the fact that no learning has to take place before the subject begins to value them.
> 
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is good too: The Five Basic Motivators 

primary reinforcers – OutsideK9



> Primary Reinforcers: These are the things a dog naturally views as rewards. You don’t have to teach a dog that a liver treat is worth working for. Almost all dogs will view a treat as a primary reinforcer. Most retrieving breeds (with a strong prey drive) will view a retrieve or even getting to hold a favorite object as a primary reinforcer.
> 
> The Gray Area: These are motivators that some dogs may see as primary and others may have to learn as secondary reinforcers. In this category are verbal praise, affection, and just being with you. Some highly-social Labs go crazy over a high-pitched baby voice. Meanwhile, independent sled-dog and pointer breeds often don’t care whether you’re around or not.
> 
> Secondary Reinforcers: These are also called conditioned reinforcers because the dog learns that they’re valuable based on their pairing with primary reinforcers. That sound that the food makes when it hits the bottom of your dog’s bowl is a good example. Most dogs will sprint toward that sound because they’ve learned that it’s predictive of food. If your dog will come to that sound, you should be able to train him, through repetition, to come to any sound.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

boomer11 said:


> If I was in kindergarten and some kid got a lollipop and all I got was a high five I'd be pissed!


I am not sure if this is comparing apples to oranges, or anthropomorphizing the dog. 

If you have TWO puppies, and you give one a piece of cheese, and you give the other a word of praise within full view of eachother, at the same time, you might just set yourself up for problems between your dogs, treat snatching, inability to focus because they are all worried about the treats and who gets them. 

But a dog has no clue that he _should expect _a treat, unless you train them to expect a treat for everything done properly. A puppy has no way to compare his training experience, with the dog next door's. As for lollipops and kindergarteners, well, teachers complain about behavior all the time, but the load kids full of sugar, and then get mad when the kids are buzzed so they think the kids should be on meds. It's crazy to give out lollipops when a high five or a sticker or a star drawn on the paper is JUST AS EFFECTIVE without the side-effects. 

Treats for pups are great. They jump start training. Just like they load a clicker, for those who use clickers, they load the praise words. At four months old, you cannot give too many treats in training. But by using praise with your treats, you should be able to wean the treats, and eventually praise should be all you need, or you should have a dog that is willing to work in the hopes of praise words from her favorite person.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Lol way to take my post literally and without any humor. Selzer you must not have any kids if you think a bag of goldfish is just as motivating as a gold star. 

And I'm saying almost all puppies will be more eager and focused around food. Sounds like you just want to argue and doing a bad job at it.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am not sure if this is comparing apples to oranges, or anthropomorphizing the dog.
> 
> If you have TWO puppies, and you give one a piece of cheese, and you give the other a word of praise within full view of eachother, at the same time, you might just set yourself up for problems between your dogs, treat snatching, inability to focus because they are all worried about the treats and who gets them.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Franklin thinks praise and uber petting is the best thing in the world. Otherwise I wouldn't have gotten to where we are. When he gets older he may be indifferent to it. But when we play, I try not overly pet him, if at all.


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## Jaders (Jul 8, 2012)

Mr. D said:


> One question I have, I could Google, but I wanted to see what others think or have tried. But can clicker training work with a verbal and physical reinforcement rather than food?


I use to use a prong ( but not on a 4 month old ). My dog was not trained ( rescued and I do not know his history ). I clicker train. I now have a dog who can be off leash with tons of dogs ( one of our problems ). 

It is very good to teach them something new. I use clicker but not all the time. I praise him when he does something good, which doesn't always involve a treat. 

I say " good boy " or " very good " when Gunner does something i like ( for example, in a down stay with some distance, he watches me , I say good boy ! ) .

When I release him from commands , I become the reward by rough playing with him. 

Please find other tools to use to train your dog. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

Mr. D, sorry that I piggy backed on your thread, but it was just what I was looking for. Very helpfull.
This is the conclusion that I arrived at. I will not use a leash on the dog, until I at least have his whole attention. I will work on his engagement by playing, and using marking training with both treats and praise, until I can wean the treats completely. I will continue this until I can honestly say I have her full attention on the first call of her name or focus word. more time before teaching more commands, so far what Gretel knows is down, sit, up, recall and speak, and also a very little heel, I will also continue teaching this commands, specially the recall command and being less lax on that command. I will only use the leash for taking her on walks outside the compound.

How does this sound to you guys and gals? Any thoughts are more than greatly appreciated.
Also any help with the issue of her jumping on my cat or my mothers small dogs for play will be even more appreciated.
Thanks
Santiago


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think another problem with petting and physical affection during training is that it lasts too long and gets the dog out of "training mode." I'm going to assume your dog gets all wiggly and loving the pets so they last 5-10 seconds or more, but you're probably going to tell me you just touch him once on the top of the head and he wets himself out of happiness. Petting/physical contact also gets your dog out of correct position, so they don't realize that they need to stay in that position or that is what is expected of them. They are very cause and affect, so if they're getting pet and they love it while they're standing in front of you...they'll connect that and just stand in front of you. You'll have a hard time breaking some of those habits if you ever do decide to do anything more than "pet training." You'll hear people say that the position of the reward matters...so that the dog doesn't cross over, or forge, or look one way or another way because its expecting the reward from a certain place. This is what makes treat training easier, you can put the treat in the position you want it to be and not confuse the dog with WHY its getting rewarded. A treat lasts for 1 second and you can get your dog back into the right mindset for continuing the work or training. I started training my dog with treats...we now go through about a bag a month. So if you still think the dogs get too attached to treats, keep thinking it.

Here's a hint...don't ask for advice when you don't really want it. Do your thing. Read some more books, enjoy your dog.

Without seeing you train your dog, and the way your dog reacts to the praise/corrections you give him, we're just getting a very biased opinion of what is actually going on. The truth is, most of us can't train by ourselves and need people to watch. Not just explain the situation that's happening and get advice online. For every question or concern that we've had, you have a very positive explanation of how your animal is different than the ones we've had or seen trained. So it seems like no matter what advice you get, your dog is different and it won't work for him.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Here's a hint...don't ask for advice when you don't really want it. Do your thing. Read some more books, enjoy your dog.


Agreed. not only are you listening to someone about putting a prong on a 4 month old but you arent even using it right. giving little pops dont teach the dog anything, it just annoys it. trainers are petsmart are geared towards training dogs for pet homes. a class can have dogs from 10 pounds to dogs that weigh 100. can you honestly say you train all these dogs the same? the advice on here is from people who have lots and lots of hands on experience with the breed. take it or go back to your petsmart trainer. 

santiagoamr you should keep a leash on your pup. when working on engagement you use your hands and lure your dog around and mark and reward. but if your pup gets distracted by a leaf blowing nearby then you dont want to be calling his name over and over to get his attention. you should call his name and if he doesnt look at you then gently pull the leash towards you and then when he looks, mark and reward. a leash is your friend and helps you control the pup. keep everything fun. it should be about bonding and socializing. you can start seriously training around 8 months and by then if you have a solid bond with your dog, you'll be amazed at how easy and fun training can be.


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## santiagoamr (Oct 10, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> santiagoamr you should keep a leash on your pup. when working on engagement you use your hands and lure your dog around and mark and reward. but if your pup gets distracted by a leaf blowing nearby then you dont want to be calling his name over and over to get his attention. you should call his name and if he doesnt look at you then gently pull the leash towards you and then when he looks, mark and reward. a leash is your friend and helps you control the pup. keep everything fun. it should be about bonding and socializing. you can start seriously training around 8 months and by then if you have a solid bond with your dog, you'll be amazed at how easy and fun training can be.


Ok that sounds logical, thanks, the more you guys help me the better it will be for me and Gretel. I really appreciate it. I was about to give up on the leash all together, now I am only going to use it on walks outside the compound and while on engagement and recall training, I know I can't really trust myself to have her on a leash while I am training her on sit down and up, because it is just too tempting to guide her with the leash, besides she loves that part of her training and she pays a lot of attention for about 10 minutes (and 30+ bits of treats) and she also loves it because she gets to play tug afterwards, I think that helps.

Thanks again 
Santiago


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

As far as treats go - think about it another way, from the dog's point of view. Just one event, like getting at the thawing meat on the counter, can make a counter surfer out of your dog. Or finding a bone in the garbage might entice your dog to forage through the container whenever you're not looking. They want food, and getting it motivates them. Why not use this to your advantage?

But in saying that, I know that different things mean more to different dogs. My puppy liked getting food rewards inside when I was teaching him certain things, but outside the food was meaningless. When I took him on off-leash hikes and recalled him, he ignored the food rewards - what worked as a reward was me offering him my hand, lol. He loved this, although DH thought I was a maniac, letting my puppy slobber my fingers. I didn't mind, he was taught a soft mouth, and this was a reward that he valued and would work for. That's what counts.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

santiagoamr said:


> Mr. D, sorry that I piggy backed on your thread, but it was just what I was looking for. Very helpfull.


No big deal. I was done with the thread a while back anyways.


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