# Aggression or Discipline?



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

We have a group of GSD owners (from a single breeder) who meet every Saturday for about an hour or so in a local park with our dogs - to do some socializing and also a good bit of OB training. The dogs will vary from 4mo puppies to adults (my own 5yo male GSD).

We have had a wide variety of owners and dogs in the group and currently have about 5-6 puppies (5-7mo) and a few adults about my dogs age.

We have had a few dogs with issues with each other - i.e. mine and another male about the same age who no longer attends; but for the most part everyone gets along pretty good.

Today we had our usual meeting with three other dogs (5-7mo puppies) and me and my guy.

We had an incident today that I would really like to get peoples comments on.

I know that I am opening up for comments but I really would like to hear what everyone thinks.

We got there a bit late and the other folks were in a group when we 
walked up to them with Baron and we had him wait and each of the puppies came over to him individually and they all exchanged sniffs and 
greetings before we started walking around the park path and doing a little OB.

We even had the dogs do a weave where each dog in turn walked 
around all the others one at a time. And all was fine with all the dogs.

One of the other puppies (a 6 mo male) had stared and then 
barked/growled at Baron once while we were doing the usual walking 
around the little park. Baron whoofed once back at him but quickly ignored him.

BUT, as we were getting ready to leave, the lady with the above 
puppy and I were talking and she let her puppy wander over to Baron. 

They seemed to be sniffing (I wasn't watching them directly, 
unfortunately (I know, I know!)). I heard the puppy growl/bark and the next thing I knew Baron growls back and I look at them and the puppy snaps at Baron. He responds by grabbing the puppy by the back of his neck and the puppy tries to bite Baron on his side. So I reached down and grabbed Baron by the scruff on his neck, told him "NO" and made him let go and that was the end of it. No blood or anything.

My question was of course, Why? Baron has always been very good 
with puppies. 

Could it be that Baron was "disciplining" the puppy for 
snapping at him. I really do believe that is what happened first - maybe 
the puppy got scared/nervous about Baron being so pushy sniffing him? 
Maybe the "puppy exemption" that I have heard about, and seen a few times, was over for this puppy due to his age?

I also wonder, if Baron was serious; why no bite marks on the puppy 
as he did seem to have a hold of the puppy before I got him off? In 
fact, Baron seemed to have a little mark on his side where the puppy 
seemed to snap at him to start this.

The other thing was that Baron seemed to be very calm even right 
after the incident - no reaction at all to the puppy after it was over. 

When Baron would get into fussing with that other adult male GSD in the past, he would remain very agitated and excited and aggressive for quite a while after the incident, esp. if the dogs were anywhere near to 
close proximity. This time I was amazed at how calm he was - even 
looked surprised when I grabbed him and told him "NO". Like "What 
did I do?" I actually felt a little bad when I did that and he looked 
at me.

So I am very puzzled at his actions and would like to hear your 
best estimate as to why he reacted like that and if I need to worry about him.


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## CurvyOne (Dec 21, 2012)

Personally, I wouldnt worry too much about it. 5 months is about the time the puppy exemption fades. Male dogs start getting more hormonal changes and pushing boundaries. Its not like your dog had target lock on the puppy. Sounds more like the puppy pushed boundaries and your dog corrected him. That being said, I try to discourage biting, even in correction. So I think it was okay to scold Baron. Supervise him closely around this pup. He obviously wasnt aiming to hurt the puppy, just to correct him. With your supervision and discipline he'll learn how to correct a dog without biting.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MOST adult dogs will give puppies a pass to a certain age(7-8 months seems to be about average). I don't think it was discipline on your dogs end. I think it was aggression, maybe even aggression that he didn't understand. When an adult dog corrects a puppy, I have never seen it do it by grabbing the dog by the neck like that. Worst case scenario, maybe pin it, but not grab it by the neck. I probably would watch him carefully around young dogs that haven't learned their manners and I would probably not allow him near the puppy he grabbed at all.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I am leaning towards a correction. I haveseen adult dogs correct younger ones by grabbing them by the neck (scruff) and especially since there are no marks on the puppy. However, there are milder corrections that Baron could have used first and because of that I'd be careful letting him correct other dogs. Sounds like everyone handled the situation pretty well.


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## empem90 (May 6, 2012)

gsdraven said:


> I am leaning towards a correction. I haveseen adult dogs correct younger ones by grabbing them by the neck (scruff) and especially since there are no marks on the puppy. However, there are milder corrections that Baron could have used first and because of that I'd be careful letting him correct other dogs. Sounds like everyone handled the situation pretty well.


:thumbup:I agree with this, especially since there were no marks on pup.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

It sounds like puppy pushed boundaries and older dog corrected. Puppy was not injured. I think I'd be more concerned about the fact that puppy was already getting that pushy. 

Wiggles just lost her puppy pass with Buddy. She is somewhere between 7-8 months. Ivan was a little older Buddy gave him a pass until he was around a year but Ivan is far more gentle than Wiggles.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would look at this way, If "said puppy" would have acted fine with Baron, Baron probably would have been fine with him/ignored him..

Puppy showed rude behavior/snarky behavior, Baron isn't going to stand there and take it, and let him know it. I'm sure if Baron really meant business, he could have done some serious damage even if it only happened in a second.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm glad people are saying correction because Eko did that to my new puppy when she got too rough. Usually if she bites too hard he yelps and I separate them but this time I think she bit him between his legs and really hurt him so he pinned her. He's never made her yelp but she does it to him all the time :/


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My girl Lena just corrected the bejesus out of my new puppy. He kept trying to steal her bone. She warned him. She warned him again. Then she corrected. He was sent screaming to his bed. I checked him, he was fine. Wet, but fine. Lena went back to chewing on her bone. Heck, she did not even bother to stand up. 

If your boy had truly been aggressive, he would have remained agitated after the incident. The fact that it was a non issue, tells me correction. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, puppy pass is fading, puppy hopefully got the message. 
I know dogs are supposed to be neutral to others, but I don't get why the sniffing/close contact is something people think is ok? My male is not dog aggressive, fairly neutral, but I wouldn't trust him around other males or even the older male puppy. 
Hopefully the pup will not be reactive in the future(because of this incident) and the owner needs to read her pups body language and be proactive from now on.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't wait for the biting to start before I start correcting. I'll correct a stink-eye, stiff posture, etc. But since you weren't paying attention (BAD codmaster, lol) who knows what exactly went on. I'm surprised that when Baron nipped his neck, the puppy didn't roll over in submission, but chose to bite back. Pretty feisty puppy! I'd be careful with the 2 of them together in the future after this incident, since some dogs just don't get along, and it sounds like this might be the case here.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm in the correction corner. If it were true aggression, his recovery would have taken longer. 

Watching Hondo and Lonestar play, I can see where Hondo's correction would match Lonestar when he becomes disrespectful. As a young puppy, Hondo was gentle, yet firm. Now that Lonestar is 15 months, if play gets disrespectful, Hondo will stop the game. Lonestar will apologize by offering toys. If the act warrants, Hondo will walk away, leaving Lonestar following and rolling to show his belly. If all is forgiven, Hondo will take the toy and the game begins again.

However, if being snubbed by Hondo and Lonestar takes his toy and shoves it in Hondo's face or body, Hondo will react with a growl and usually move into Lonestar's space causing Lonestar to roll showing his belly. 

But afterwards, there are never hard feelings. Recovery is immediate. 

Because they both have to live together, I normally get involved if the game gets too rough, by stopping the game.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with the correction too, the pup ignored the original warning (growling) that he was overstepping its bounds, and the correction that followed escalated to what Baron felt the pup needed. 

If he was ignoring the pup's behaviour earlier, it was because he was working (obedience), and through training and proofing, has learned to ignore other dogs, even when they are acting inappropriately (kudos for you on that). But then afterwards, he and the pup were "free" so to speak, so Baron was acting on his own. 

I wouldn't think too much about it - if Baron has always been good with pups and other dogs, its not like he has suddenly changed into another dog. I would too have done as you have, intervened to let him know that it is not up to him to decide to correct bratty six month old, but up to you. Next time just watch for this pup to be around, and if Baron pays any attention to him, just give him a 'leave it!' to let him know that you are aware of the situation, and you are calling the shots on it.


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