# Need suggestions . . Tradgic Accident



## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

So I'm just trying to see if I'm way out of line. Feel free to tell me if I am.

Saturday am, I was in my backyard planting flowers, Jake was out with me. We have an electric fence. The neighbor's let their mini-poodles out, unattended, they have no fence, no long line, no nothing. The youngest comes in our yard barking at Jake, get's right in his face, he paw'd her, she ran, yipping. Jake chased her, through the fence onto their porch, picked her up, shook her. She passed.

I feel absolutely horrible about what happened. I understand what happened (predatory drift), but that doesn't ease my heart any. Jake has never shown any agression what so ever. He has been in doggy daycare since he was 10 weeks old (now 2 years), in training all the time, all things a responsible GSD owner would do.

Then . . ya know what they do, within less than 24 hours of the incident. Let the other dog out, not on a leash, nothing. The dog wander's into our yard, thank god Jake was not outside. The owner had to come get her.

We have installed a tie out for Jake, as obvisously I can't trust him on the fence completely. Even before this happened, Jake was never left unattended in the yard for any longer than to run to the back for potty.

I think they are going to try to make us get rid of Jake. WHICH WILL NOT HAPPEN. But what can I do to protect us and him?

Thanks!!


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

You did nothing wrong they need to be better pet owners. The only thing I would do is let Jake get acquainted with his pet neighbors and then perhaps things like this won't happen but be smart about go to your neighbors house first don't bring their dogs over to your yard as Jake may have protection issues. Start by bringing him to visit them first on a leash of course and have him sit and stay and let the other dog sniff his rear end first making Jake stay and go from there. good luck


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Build a fence.

Really, the very best thing to do, is to have a proper fence. Even on a tie-out, bad things can happen.


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

I was going to get an electric fence but was advised against it for that reason. It might keep my dog in but it doesn't keep others out. Did you have any witnesses? that dog was unrestrained and came on your property first. I know we train and focus on behavior, but seriously, they ARE dogs. I am so sorry for what happened. We are having to keep Lizzie close because of a dog up the street that attacks her and then the owners blame us...so I understand. If they let their other dog out right after that incident and didn't learn from it, that is so sad and shows their ignorance.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

If you lived in my county, Jake would be put down, no questions asked, which IMHO is an extreme penalty which I hope fails in the courts. 

Since the electric fence didn't work, I'd either get Jake a secure fence to keep Jake in and neighbor dogs out, or put up a nice sized, secure dog pen.

I know you have to walk on eggshells now, but I'd also ask/tell the neighbors to keep their bloody dogs out of your yard.

GOOD LUCK and I hope you don't have problems with the neighbors!!!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You have to build a fence. Sorry.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I would build a fence. 

It keeps your dog inside and safe and it keeps dangerous dogs or any big wildlife (depending on where you live) out. 

Also it keeps your dog from chasing a squirrel or another small dog out into the road causing it to get hit by a car. 

It also will prevent naughty poodles from being eaten


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Your neighbor needs to be more responsible. I can't see anyone making you put your dog down after 1 incident that is crazy. What if it was the other way around, your neighbors GSD came into your yard and killed your poodle. Your neighbor is neglectful anyway you look at it.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I agree you're probably going to have to build a fence but I would also be waiting and take pictures the next time their dog is out without a leash. Great if the dog comes on your property but even if it's somewhere else unleashed it would help your side out more. The more pictures you take the better it will be to show it's not a one time occurrence that the dogs are left to run free frequently.

Not a fan of the electric fences for just this reason it keeps NOTHING out that means dogs kids cats whatever and then your dog is liable.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fence. A strong sturdy fence to keep him in and others out. Look on craigslist. You can find used chain link or you can put welded wire up if money is an issue. 

Even if Jake had stayed in the yard you still can't control other animals coming in without a physical fence. 

Unfortunately, Jake was probably playing or defending his own because of the way the other dog was acting. Did anyone call the police and file a report? Animal control? I would not even offer to cover vet costs as that could be an "admission of guilt" if they push the issue. The dog came into your yard and your dog acted like a dog.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

The OP's dog killed the neighbor's dog on the neighbor's porch. 

Yes, it is horrible that the neighbor allowed their dog to run loose and yes the neighbor's dog instigated it, going by the original post.
But as owners of large dogs with an often time bad rep, it is our responsibility to do everything possible to insure these types of accidents can not happen.
In most areas, if your dog is chained/tied out in your yard, and a child or other animal approaches and is injured, it is STILL the dog owner's legal responsibility.


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

gagsd said:


> The OP's dog killed the neighbor's dog on the neighbor's porch.
> 
> Yes, it is horrible that the neighbor allowed their dog to run loose and yes the neighbor's dog instigated it, going by the original post.
> But as owners of large dogs with an often time bad rep, it is our responsibility to do everything possible to insure these types of accidents can not happen.
> In most areas, if your dog is chained/tied out in your yard, and a child or other animal approaches and is injured, it is STILL the dog owner's legal responsibility.


I kinda have to agree with this. We don't have a back door to our back yard. We have a side door...one day Ace ran after a dog being walked off leash by its's owner. Ace just wanted to play didn't want to fight or anything and nothing happened...thank god but it could have been really bad. So we leash them every time we take them out. We can not allow this to happen. EVER. So every single time we take the out back they are on leashes. It is hard but it's life. I refuse to risk theirs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gagsd said:


> Build a fence.
> 
> Really, the very best thing to do, is to have a proper fence. Even on a tie-out, bad things can happen.


I agree. The only thing a tie-out will do is prevent HIM from leaving the yard. It will do nothing to keep your neighbor's dogs OUT of your yard, so they could still be in danger. You could either tether him to you when you're working outside so he can't go anywhere and you'll be right there to intercede if necessary, (like drop kicking the little yappy dogs back home if they come into your yard again? ), or get a kennel enclosure to put him in when he's outside with you.

I'm very sorry this happened, and I think you've learned a valuable lesson. It's too late to prevent one dog from being killed, but you need to take action to make sure that another dog is not killed, either your neighbors or your own.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How did your neighbors handle the situation? 
Like Jax asked was animal control involved? 

There was a cat in my county that attacked another cat and the owner was taken to court over it! Now the cat is on probation..talk about a waste of court time.

Cats & small dogs seem to get a pass, larger breed dogs usually don't.
I agree, no e-fence is ever safe and many neighborhood associations don't allow regular fencing. If yours does, I would be putting one in asap.


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## bunchoberrys (Apr 23, 2010)

Fellow Michigander here. Mkewish, your going to have to get yourself some fencing unfortunately. The law could get both of you in trouble.....Its that lovely "Michigan Leash Law" only two states really address the issue of leashes for dogs on a statewide basis. *Michigan and **Pennsylvania,* perhaps in a less than clear manner, mandate that owners restrain their dogs on leashes when the dogs are not on their owners' property. The pertinent section of the Michigan Dog Law of 1919 provides that any dog over six months must be registered and wear a collar at all times. It then states that it is unlawful for anyone to allow a dog six months or older “to stray unless properly held in leash.” MCL 287.262. Likewise, Michigan law also provides that female dogs in heat must be kept on their owners' premises or restrained on a leash. While one may argue the phraseology (e.g., a dog cannot "_stray_ unless properly held in leash" (emphasis added)) sounds somewhat counterintuitive, it does seem to mandate a statewide leash requirement for dogs." And the argument being now adays is that electric fencing is not considered "proper containment". I wish you luck.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

Did you file a police report? Or call animal control? Trust me even though we were on our walk when we had a yorkie (2 different times, same owners) ran at us and attacked our shepherd...We were told it was not our fault, but because he has now bitten them twice it is for our dogs safety to file the report and call animal control, and yes i would most definitely build a fence if possible...If the dog comes back to your yard when jake is out the most you can do is to remove your dog from the situation (which sucks because it is your yard.)..But again to protect him. Personally i would be giving the little poodle a nudge in teh other direction.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with building a proper fence or putting a kennel in your back yard so that your dog is protected while you are outside. 

Your neighbors were foolish and did not control their dogs. However, your dog went through the electric thing and got to their dog, so you also did not control your dog. It is an unfortunate and tragic accident, and I would hope that they would understand that their dog should not have entered your property. 

But for everyone involved, install a fence AND supervise your dog outside.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Fence or tie out plus a reliable 'come'. Though it started in your yard, it ended in their yard.....

More about moving on to manage your situation to assure this won't happen again than beat yourself up over what happened.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Hate to state the obvious, but no matter the cause, your dog killed your neighbor's dog on the neighbor's property.. That means your dog was not contained and killed a dog in it's own yard.

Yeah.. I more than understand. We've had accidents (not deaths thank goodness).

Dogs will be dogs.

I just wrote a 4 digit check to a woman who walked two pom's by and, newly installed gate latch didn't hold. Stupid woman not only submitted the emergency vet bill to me but didn't properly care for the wound and incurred even more expense.. I mean, two E collars.... I paid.

They, my dogs downed one of the barking dogs and caused an injury.

By law I wasn't obligated to pay, but I did rather than deal with this kooky person... I mean she's certified!

Animal control officer was very understanding and no record on my dogs.

I personally feel it's an obligation to pay for any damage my dogs purposely or purposely cause. Another neighbor saw the whole thing and really thought my dogs were just playing.

I'm only saying what I feel.

If I were you I'd be happy your neighbor isn't causing even more trouble.

Build that fence and count yourself lucky... Just my opinion.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

You became partly responsible when your dog left your yard. That is the way the law would see it, you should of had better control over your dog, even though it was not your dog that started it.

Build a fence, make sure it is secure and work on your dog to come and focus attention on you during high drive situations.

Its about all you can do.

If it went/goes to court it will depends on where you live. Some dogs have so many strikes, some will tell you to do certain things (fence, classes, etc) and then leave it at that, some might tell you to do that, then require you to muzzle your dog off your property and put it on a list. It all just depends.

I wouldnt file any reports, let them be the one to do it. Doing so just shows that it was your dog that left its property. There dog, while out, went back to its own property and unless the police or AC sees the dog running loose, there isnt really anything they can do about it w/out proof.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I agree with everyone on the fencing. Also to protect your dog document, preferably by pictures, everytime the dog comes into your yard. If you end up in court if could help spread around the responsibility.


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## SylvieUS (Oct 15, 2009)

Uggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhh!!!!

****disclaimer, I am not a Michigan Attorney or Licensed Insurance Agent, please see your own professional****

That being said, I see lawsuit/insurance claim written all over here. Destruction of 'property' 'mental anguish' etc etc.

No matter who instigated it, your GSD killed their yip-yappy thing on their property. You have liability issues.

I would put your home owners insurance company on notice. This is a double edged sword, because it becomes an 'open claim in 2010" no matter if anything is ever paid out.

However, if your neighbors wait till the very end of the statute of limitations to file civil suit on you (most cases 2 years, but check by your atty) after trying to extort 'settlement money' out of you... (buying them a new dog pretty much = admission of guilt, again, check with your atty and/or home owners agent) ....er....getting back to the original point, if you wait till suit is filed to turn in the claim, the Home Owners Insurance Company can try to deny coverage based on your "Failure to file in a timely manner". (most policies specify what 'timely manner' is, read your policy carefully)

Also, don't post a "Beware of Dog" sign without checking with your/an unbiased insurance agent. In _*some*_ States, that is considered an admission of knowing your dog is aggressive and presumptive you should have a 'higher duty of care' to anyone on your property.

Lastly...I think someone here mentioned it....get a fence! lol.

Really sorry this happened to you...best of luck to you and Jake.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you let the insurance co. know they will cancel the policy....and then good luck getting insurance with a GSD with history. I would just let it play out for now and work individually with the neighbor, not involve anyone else. If the neighbor makes waves, then call the insurance co and hope for the best.
Get a CGC on the dog and a fence in the meantime.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

wow, so sorry this happened....personally, it bothers me that b/c ur dog is bigger and b/c a yappy little dog "trespassed" on your property and your dog responded (yes i know the dog died and I feel bad about that), it's your issue, even tho he was the non-instigator.....regardless of what the law states, I just think it's wrong people can ignore their little dogs, be irresponsible and when an animal behaves like an animal and reacts, they are blamed.....plus the fact that b/c we own GSD's we are automatically discriminated against!!! I can tell you that if someone broke into my house, ran away, crossed my property line and kept going, my boy would follow and continue his job to protect......just like ur's did when that dog did the same in his mind.....sounds like b/c of their stupidity ur gonna end up with a fence.....

Anywho, rant over, I did want to suggest that before you do ANYTHING, consult a lawyer.....you want to make sure that nothing you do can be used against you as a sign of or admission of guilt.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Wow, sorry that happened. Hopefully the neighbor's won't go pursue a lawsuit because unfortunately they have a very good chance of winning. I don't like IF for just this reason. I walk Ursa around my block and there are 5 houses with IF and most of the time the dogs all break out of their IF and come after me/Ursa even though we are actually walking in the street and not even on the sidewalk. One of those dogs ever does a thing to Ursa and you can be sure I'd be going after their owner. 

Hope you offered up some money to pay for the death caused by your dog - i.e like cremation or such. Yes they were irresponsible to let their dogs run loose but your dog killed their dog on their property. Had your dog killed their dog on your property I don't know that they could do much against your dog.


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## SylvieUS (Oct 15, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> If you let the insurance co. know they will cancel the policy....


Possibly, due to "increase in material hazard' with 90 day notice. 

You then go about getting another policy, tho many of them might require you exclude liability on the dog in the future.

Still in all, MUCH better than getting a 100K judgement against you (okay, not likely, but one never knows with jury pools) and having your HO insurance company get off the hook because you didn't file in a timely manner, leaving you holding a giant, 100K golden bag on your own.

Besides that, your HO insurance likely has a "Duty to defend' a potential lawsuit, and if you hire your own atty on top of the one (theirs, the Ins Company) which you've already 'paid for' with your insurance premiums....big mess! Though if you consult an atty they will likely tell you the same thing.

Just IMHO.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I agree with everyone else - build a secure fence. Check with your dog warden's office about your area's dangerous dog laws but more than likely your dog is now legally considered one. If that is the case in your area, find out what that means - you may need specific fences, licenses and there may be restrictions on having him in public. Talk to a lawyer about the case, even if the neighbors haven't threatened a lawsuit at this point. You may want to offer to buy them another poodle but that is something I'd run by a lawyer first (since it is an admission of guilt, although not sure how you would claim otherwise in this case - your dog ran onto their property and killed their dog). 

There was a predatory aggression issue at the daycare I worked at where a GSD who had always been fine chased down and tried to kill a Basenji, which is not a toy sized dog at all. Also knew a Greyhound to chased down, picked up and came close to killing a Mini Schnauzer, also not a super small dog. Unless your dog is only around other same sized dogs at daycare, it is not safe to continue to take him. Even if he is only around other large dogs, disclosing the incident to the daycare is the right thing to do especially if he is now considered "dangerous" by law. 

A very tragic event for sure, for all involved  Unbelievable that the neighbor still allows the remaining Poodle to run loose!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Just a thought - wouldn't the tie out make things worse? The other poodle could still come in the yard and with Jake being tethered that may increase his frustration/aggression and just make matters worse. Possibly get a 10 x 10 chain link kennel for now? I think that would be a better alternative than the tie out which I think may lead to more problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If Jake is tethered and their dog comes on YOUR property and gets EATEN, that is their problem, not yours. 

Juries are funny. Talk it over with your attourney. I would leave the homeowner's insurance out of it. If they take you to small claims court, you go before the judge and explain that their dog came over into your yard, and your dog chased it out of your yard and there was a fight. 

My read on this is that you may have to provide replacement cost for their dog, but I think that most judges and juries would not require mental anguish and the like, given you were out there, the dog was in your yard, and you were containing your dog with an electric fence for added security. 

But you never can tell.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> If Jake is tethered and their dog comes on YOUR property and gets EATEN, that is their problem, not yours.


 This is not entirely accurate, as it could still count against the dog being legally considered "dangerous" if it is reported. You aren't likely to be found liable for damages if it occurs on your property but it still isn't good, especially for a dog who already has a record.



selzer said:


> My read on this is that you may have to provide replacement cost for their dog, but I think that most judges and juries would not require mental anguish and the like, given you were out there, the dog was in your yard, and you were containing your dog with an electric fence for added security.


 I agree that is the most likely outcome. It may be possible to prevent a lawsuit by just offering that to them upfront but again, a lawyer would be the best person to advise on the issue.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yupp I did say to talk it over with your attourney. I would not tell them that you did though. As they may decide to Lawyer up. 

For some rediculous reason, there are more lawyers willing to go to bat for the perceived victims of a dog attack, then lawyers willing to take on the defense of the the perceived attacking dog. 

If you do find that they are bringing some type of legal suit against you, contact some breed clubs. They may be able to provide the names of some lawyers who are willing to take dog cases.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hi there fellow michigan shepherd owner, so sorry this happened to you. just about everything that can be said has been said so i will only say:

no tie out
get a lawyer (or at least talk to one) RIGHT AWAY.
build a fence or a kennel RIGHT AWAY.

these people can make a world of trouble for you because your dog killed their dog on their property. the details do not matter. other people being foolish doesn't matter. nothing matters but the law and liability and i believe the law is not going to be on your side. i feel for you. i cannot stress how strongly i feel that you absolutely must get a fence or build a kennel TO PROTECT YOUR DOG from other people's stupidity.


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Everyone.

Thank You for the insight.

Latest events . . . the neighbors approached us last night. I won't get into the details, but they asked us to get rid of Jake. Which I think is a little extreme. We informed them we are not getting rid of him, the conversation did not end well.

To top it off . . I had Jake outside on a leash this morning. The neighbor watched out his patio door, came out on to his porch as we were walking back in the house. Ofcourse Jake barked, I told him that's enough, and we walked back in the house.

Now they are trying to provoke him, uuuurrrggghhh.

We are going to contact an attorney, put in a hedge row (we can't have fences in our subdivision) and just wait and see what they do. Jake will just go outside for potty time on a leash. At this time, I think that's all I can do.


This sucks, I get sick to my stomach every time Jake needs to go outside.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm glad you're getting legal help.

Sorry your conversation with the neighbor didn't go over too well. Did you ask him to keep his dogs from coming into your yard?

Are freestanding dog pens allowed in your neighborhood. If so you could get one for Jake and make sure it's secure. I have a 24x36' one in the yard to keep Slider and Mac separated and it works well. It's not "secure" since they've never tried to dig out or go over the top so I haven't done anything to prevent it.


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## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

Our neighbor is trying to provoke us too. Although we have not had your level of disaster, Lizzie will bark at his dog and will be aggressive at the fence if she sees him. I would too....obnoxious little yapper. He always starts it. So now he walks his dog down the street and stands in front of our house (we have big grassy islands in our neighborhood and that is where dogs go) although there are lots of other places for him to walk. We make sure we don't go out and that if we take her out to play they are not out. It is a real pain. You really do need to look into a secure kennel....as an alternative Lowes and Home Depot sell this awesome cheap iron fencing that stakes into the ground with large stakes that have to be dug up when ready to remove. You can buy it by section and put it up in about 5 minutes. They have tall ones that work well for dogs. We use it for my daughter's Springer Spaniel and you know how hyper they are. It is pretty and inexpensive and very sturdy. You might try that to see if it secure enough. Then you can move it if you have to.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm sorry this situation found you!

I can't make any legal suggestions since I'm not a lawyer. One thing you could do though, is if you have a digital camera with movie mode is try to catch their other dog roaming about freely. Having some type of tangible evidence can never hurt, even if you never have to use it. 

Good luck and keep us updated please!


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## SylvieUS (Oct 15, 2009)

You may also be able to hide some flexible fencing in your hedgerow. Stake it down. Won't keep Jake in, but will keep the yip-yappy things out. Best of luck to you!


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

The "yippy yappy" things are dogs.

With as much right to live as yours or anyones big dog. It irks me when "big dog owners" put the little dogs down like that, just as it irks me when small dog owners don't bother to train their small dogs.

However, I see just as many big, untrained and un-behaved dogs. And they CAN do a lot more damage, sorry, but it is what it is.

We weren't there. We didn't see what really went down. There is SO much body language and communication between dogs, simply in how they look at each other, etc. We don't know why the poodle came onto the property. Should he have ? Of course not. Should he have paid with his life? NO, no and no. Are the neighbors irresponsible for letting the poodles roam ? YES. 

But the GS got out, too. And he killed...
What if its a small child next ? That is how it will be looked at, whether its fair or not.

I have a German Shepherd and a Chihuahua. The Chi is just as well behaved as my big dog and a heck of a lot better trained then many big dogs we come across.

She is a super dog and I'm very attached to her. She is no "thing" neither are those poodles.

It didn't deserve to die. 

Its a bad situation all around, esp. with no fences allowed. If it escalates, there will be problems for sure.

Jake should NEVER be allowed off leash outside again. Apparently he will not listen once he "goes off", so this can never be allowed to happen again. He should also have his training re-evaluated. A big dog like that HAS to be 100% reliable, esp. without fences. 

The bigger the dogs, the more potential for a fatal or catastrophic outcome, the bigger OUR responsibility. 

All dogs should be trained. Even the smallest ones. 

RIP "yappy thing"

To the OP, hope it will all work out...


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

Me again . . thanks again to everyone responding.

I just wanted to put something out here. I think as 'Big Dog' owners we should all be aware of something called: Predatory Drift, look it up.

I make no excuses for what Jake did. I racked my brain for days after the incident to figure out what happened. We have done everything possible that was in our means to make sure Jake wasn't labeled 'one of those shepherds'. He's been in doggy daycare since he was 10 wks old, goes every day. Been in additional training classes from puppy sociliazation and 3 manners/obedience classes. He was never left outside unattended, we installed an electric fence, we put up spruce tree's along the properties lines on each side for 'visual reference', I tested him weekly to make sure he was respecting the boundaries. I never let Jake out if I knew the other dogs were out. He's been socialized to all ages of children, he loves them. One of my girlfriends bring her 7 year old over just to play with because he misses the shepherd she had to put down and she trust's Jake.

I had to question my self . . was I missing something . . I had no reason to think something like this would happen. Our dog trainer sent us an article on Predatory Drift, it is exactly what happened. ANY dog could do this at any time.

Now that I have been made aware, I will address it accordingly.

I will keep you all posted.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Sorry to hear about this unfortunate situtation.

Now that you have seeked legal advice I would stop posting about it on a public message board. I know that you want to understand the behaviour of your dog but anything that you say here can/will be used against you.

Print out this thread and save it.


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Everyone,

Well just an update. On the 3rd court date, the judge made her decision . . per the statute Jake is dangerous and must be destroyed.

We filed an immediate motion for stay of execution pending appeal. It was granted. So now we start the appeal process.

Obvisously I can't discuss the nitty gritty details of the case, I just wanted to post to ask everyone to please say their prayers and keep their fingers crossed for our baby Jake!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Poor Jake!!! Hang in there! I hope everything turns out alright!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

OH! That just breaks my heart! Jake and his family are in my prayers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m so sorry. You are in my thoughts. I hope the judge can be swayed.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

:hugs: Oh, I'm so sorry to hear this. Hope your appeal is successful!!!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I hope the thing people are taking out of this is how to be PRO-active with their dogs so a similar situation won't ever occur with our own dogs.

SOCIALIZE with any and all dogs so none are treated like 'prey' so may be injured.

TRAIN for a reliable 'come' in all situations.

Fence if you can.


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

I suggest a fence too. I doubt they will succeed in a court order to get rid of the dog, since it was another dog, and not a child or adult. You can get a kennel run temporarily while you build an appropriate fence.


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

Missed the posts...Can you move?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

JudynRich said:


> I suggest a fence too. I doubt they will succeed in a court order to get rid of the dog, since it was another dog, and not a child or adult. You can get a kennel run temporarily while you build an appropriate fence.


Sadly it depends on how the laws are written. I know where I live if any dog gets loose and kills another domestic animal it's an automatic death sentence.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

So sorry this had to happen! But seriously, the next day the same neighbors let their other dog out, unattended? Poor Jake did what comes naturally: the poodle came into his yard, he protected his yard in typical dog fashion. Here in Michigan dog owners are protected from prosecution if their dog bites a human intruder; I'd be willing to bet the same laws would apply with a canine intruder. If I were you I'd start taking pictures of the neighbor's dogs on your property as back up if attorneys or animal control become involved. Also, I'd have to agree: build a fence. Tall and solid. Even if no legal ramifications occur from this, you certainly don't want a repeat.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear....you and Jake are in my thoughts.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Several years ago a small child from the neighborhood just walked right in the front door of our house, Baron the family German Shepherd was asleep against the door and the child stepped/fell right over the top of him, me and a neighbor were there and saw the whole thing, I was 16 as was my friend. Baron had jumped up and in the fracas bit the child on the cheek and the child ran screaming home, Baron never ran after him and I quicky closed the door and ran after the child to assess his injuries and to comfort him. The mother came running and lit into me calling me ugly names and telling me she was going to have my dog destroyed. It was a horrible scene and a few of the other neighbors came to her aid and proceeded to attack me as well, I just calmy asked, " Why was such a small child allowed to roam unattended in the neighborhood? He could have been kidnapped and the one at fault is you, your unsupervised child walked into my house! They took a neighborhood petition to have him destroyed and we were sued, my Dad pleaded that the dog was not at loose roaming the neighborhood and we had several of our neighborhood kids say what a great dog Baron was, finally my Dad asked the judge if he had a fence installed around the whole property if that would be sufficient to spare his life, and to our happiness, it was accepted. I think you NEED to have a fence put up and take pictures of the fence with you to court to show the judge, otherwise, get the **** out of Dodge, I sure as **** would.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

JudynRich said:


> Missed the posts...Can you move?


seriously, I would consider this if it were me, extreme or not....I just couldn't give in b/c ****** law makers write stupid pieces of legislation....my dog may just one day brake free from being tied and "disappeared", or be stolen!....I don't know how you can continue to live beside those neighbors either, you are better than I am I can tell you that; I just know I couldn't without police involvement!

Good luck...


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

Didn't realize this was so old. I'm sorry to hear that the judge ordered the dog put down.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

An old friend in MI had a pit bull come into their yard and attack their lab. The lab had a lot of damage done to him but lived. The judge ruled that the people had 30 days to find a home in the country for this pitbull. They had to keep him confined in the house or in a kennel with a top on it.

Maybe, with a good lawyer, you can sway the judge to the fence idea. I'd be throwing up a 6' privacy fence just to keep their dogs out of my yard.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

longhairshepmom said:


> The "yippy yappy" things are dogs.
> 
> With as much right to live as yours or anyones big dog. It irks me when "big dog owners" put the little dogs down like that, just as it irks me when small dog owners don't bother to train their small dogs.
> 
> ...


Would you feel the same way about a very little man starting a fight with a BIG man and getting the &^&^ kicked out of him? It is the big guys fault that he fought back and won?

Little dogs need to learn not to start a fight that they cannot win.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

What would happen if Jake were given away to a trusted relative or friend out of town? Since he would no longer be your dog or in the judge's jurisdiction, wouldn't that solve the problem? I mean except for the fact that your neighbor is a jerk. 

Jelpy


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Would you feel the same way about a very little man starting a fight with a BIG man and getting the &^&^ kicked out of him? It is the big guys fault that he fought back and won?
> 
> Little dogs need to learn not to start a fight that they cannot win.


I agree with that. Not to mention that fact that even though little dogs are still dogs they do tend to yip and yap a lot compared to medium and large dogs. Some owners think its cute when in fact it isn't and can lead to situations like this. All around this is a bad situation.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Would you feel the same way about a very little man starting a fight with a BIG man and getting the &^&^ kicked out of him? It is the big guys fault that he fought back and won?
> 
> Little dogs need to learn not to start a fight that they cannot win.


It is not, small or big, the dog's fault. Small dogs are so overprotected and not enough educated because they are "cute" and they can do pretty not much damages, so they grow with bad attitude. I met people who had 3 GSD and a small York. This small York was stunning! Perfect attitude, no barking at big dog, no submission or dominance, just a good attitude. He was well behaved and not treated like a kid! 

This little dog came accross the big dog's property, barking at him with probably a very bad attitude. Jake did what he though the good thing to do.

If the little dog's owner was responsible, he would have supervised his dog.

You should definately ask if a fence could be the solution.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree so often little dogs are babied and have aggression but people think it's CUTE until something like this happens and now Jake's family is fighting for him not be destroyed! Why does the house with poodle's have an e fence? Why is it ok for small dogs to go run everywhere?????


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

I have to say my pups are always in a fenced area or they are leashed and I carry something to defend my pup with. This is as much for their own safety as anything else. 

Big or small we have to do everything we can to protect ours even if someone does not return the courtesy of doing the same with theirs. 

This was a horrible situation that we are not here to judge. the loss of any animal large or small is tragic. Instead we should offer all we can to help provide ideas that can be offered to the judge in the appeal.

I hope your pup is spared and I also hope the other owner may have learned something.

Get a good lawyer and offer to have a fence a covered run etc.


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

I really wish I could share all the details of this with you guys. Bottom line re: the statute in Michigan . . Any dog that kills another dog is dangerous and shall be destroyed unless a reasonable person could conclude he did it to protect. Well, the judge considered herself reasonable and could not conclude, even after 3 experts told her that was the case, that he was protecting me from a 6 lb. poodle. 

I agree on the fence deal, unfortunately we are not allowed to have fences in our neighborhood. We are allowed to have dog runs/kennels, judge would not agree to that.

It infuriates me (sp?) that we are being made to a pay price for neglegiant neighbor. We installed an electric fence and planted spruce tree's on the property line's for visual ref. for Jake. We tested him frequently to make sure he respected the boundaries. He's been in our yard when their dogs have been out and he wouldn't go through the fence. But they had never ran at me into our yard barking before. We did everything we could and they did nothing.

Please keep us in your thoughts and prayers, this fight is going to take some time. But we refuse to stop fighting!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I hope this somehow turn out well for you. 

Since that poodle made the first strike, I guess the law doesnt say anything about this. 

Do those poodles still come into your yard? After that first incident, and a discussion with the owner, I would have taken any loose poodle to the pound and have them go and retrieve the dog and pay the fines. Maybe that will give them a clue. They don't need to know it was you.


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

Having heartless neighbors like this must be horrible! This is when I wish I was a meaner person...some people have no problems w/ being so mean!


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

This is so sad!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

mkewish said:


> I really wish I could share all the details of this with you guys. Bottom line re: the statute in Michigan . . Any dog that kills another dog is dangerous and shall be destroyed unless a reasonable person could conclude he did it to protect. Well, the judge considered herself reasonable and could not conclude, even after 3 experts told her that was the case, that he was protecting me from a 6 lb. poodle.
> 
> I agree on the fence deal, unfortunately we are not allowed to have fences in our neighborhood. We are allowed to have dog runs/kennels, judge would not agree to that.
> 
> ...


It's sad to say, but you should extend the procedures as long as you can, untill they are tired to pay legal fees. It could be very very expensive....but it could also be your only chance....I work for attorneys and sometime, this is what they do when the client have pretty no chances to win.....they extend the procedure as long as they can and sometime, the other partie just let it fell....

No fence allowed???? What is this lol! Seriously, if you had a fence, this had probably never happened....what a stupid law...

Did you try to convince the judge that the Poodle's attitude was agressive? That he attacked first? Your dog is describe as an agressive dog, but what about the Poodle??? Because he was so small he couldn't be agressive??? Is there any expert that can tell that this Poodle act real agressive???

This story is UNFAIRE!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

This is NOT a suggestion, but something to think about. Do you think if we wrote the judge it would help Jake?


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

arycrest said:


> This is NOT a suggestion, but something to think about. Do you think if we wrote the judge it would help Jake?


 Unfortunately not.....Judges can't be influenced by "supporters".....Judges refer to law......maybe "we" should wrote to the neighbors....


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

The reasonable person standard is what has to be worked. You need to bring in witnesses who are familiar with GSDs and try and sell them as the basis for a "reasonable person" in this case.


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## mkewish (Sep 2, 2008)

VegasResident said:


> The reasonable person standard is what has to be worked. You need to bring in witnesses who are familiar with GSDs and try and sell them as the basis for a "reasonable person" in this case.


 
We had 3 experts come in and explain to the judge (one of which did an evaluation of Jake) say via experience w/ him he's not dangerous, animal control came and testified to the same thing. All of the experts testified to breed characteristics, that dog invaded his territory, was threatening (regardless of size),etc., etc. Didn't matter.

We're not going to give up. We will fight this as long as we can. Hopefully when this is over and Jake is home, we will have enough to change this law. I can't stand by and let this happen to anyone else.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Maybe you could create a facebook page or something and get more backing...all the support you can get will be helpful in your fight.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I wonder if the judge owns a poodle.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I am so sorry this is happening to you and Jake. I am relly hoping that everything will work out for you guys. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Gsdldy (May 7, 2010)

Yep, I'm wondering if the judge has a small breed dog and may be biased for smaller dogs because of it. Or if this judge has had a bad experience with a GSD sometime in her past.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You should go before a different judge during your appeal, correct?


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

mkewish said:


> We had 3 experts come in and explain to the judge (one of which did an evaluation of Jake) say via experience w/ him he's not dangerous, animal control came and testified to the same thing. All of the experts testified to breed characteristics, that dog invaded his territory, was threatening (regardless of size),etc., etc. Didn't matter.
> 
> We're not going to give up. We will fight this as long as we can. Hopefully when this is over and Jake is home, we will have enough to change this law. I can't stand by and let this happen to anyone else.


You are an inspiration to me, I will do the same for Phenix, continue your good work.



Caledon said:


> I wonder if the judge owns a poodle.


 LOL


Jax08 said:


> You should go before a different judge during your appeal, correct?


Yes. One thing is good, they approoved the appeal, that means there are good reasons of doubt.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

We wish you the best of luck!


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## ElvisP (May 19, 2010)

What happens if Jake "runs away?" Many dogs do this and perhaps you can find another home for Jake. 

Good luck and best wishes.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

As a last alternative, could you try contacting Best Friends in Knabb Utah? They used to take cases like this. That is, Jake could be taken to Best Friends instead of destroyed.

To the person who suggested that the people would run out of money -- this isn't a civil suit - the injured party has no costs here.


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't think Jake has the option of running away. I get the impression that Jake was confiscated from his owners and is being held by Animal Control until a final decision is made about his fate.

The time for Jake to be taken away and sequested in a safe place would have been the same day that he killed the neighbor's dog. Then the owners could have simply told the authorities that the dog cannot be found.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

middleofnowhere said:


> As a last alternative, could you try contacting Best Friends in Knabb Utah? They used to take cases like this. That is, Jake could be taken to Best Friends instead of destroyed.
> 
> To the person who suggested that the people would run out of money -- this isn't a civil suit - the injured party has no costs here.


 Thanx for the precision!!!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

You guys are in my thoughts... But you do have to have some kind of sympathy for the neighbors, or at least their dog, she paid the ultimate price for their negligence. 


If you win and get to keep him, please do not ever take him outside off of his leash. A tie-out will not stop other dogs from coming to him. 

Good luck to you guys...


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