# Trying to understand the cause of aggression



## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Hi all,

I have a male GSD, who just turns 3 years old. He was protection trained when I got him 5 months ago. We have been developing relationship really well. I have been bringing him to schutzhund club for about 3 months now, he is still not offleashed in schutzhund field because the trainer is still trying to convert his view of biting as fun/game instead of a threat.

I have been going to the public park right behind my house to exercise him like fetching the ball, and practicing some schutzhund stuffs and he has been doing well so far. If I don't see that many people and no kids around, I sometimes offleash him (of course with an e-collar in hand).

I always exercise him (morning and night), train him some more obedience, feed him well.

Yesterday, I trained him retrieve in the public park as usual, and there was a guy would like to pass by about 10 meters behind us. This guy knows me since he often sees me in the park training my dog, so he waives at me. My dog suddenly ran toward this guy while I told him (my dog) to stay and I pressed the continuous button on my E-collar remote (at the highest intensity level) as soon as possible and he (my dog) screamed, but he (my dog) still approached the guy slowly while he (my dog) was screaming and finally managed to take a nip a this guy's knee, then he just stood right beside this guy while he was still screaming until I ran and got him by the collar.

The guy's knee got some little scratches from my dog's teeths because he was wearing sport pants.

At this point, I become so hesitant training him in public park because now I can't trust him fully that he has to be leashed all time. What kind of training should I do to make sure this doesn't happen in the future? Any of this kind of incident ever happens to you, if yes, how do you handle this in the future? What is the cause of this aggression while everyone was not nervous at the time of incident?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can't say a thing about the aggression but if your dog was screaming then the stimulation on the e-collar was wayyy to high. Did you have a trainer help you determine how to use the e-collar?


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

I have watched the video from Leerburg, and that's what they say, when your dog is showing aggression, always go to the highest intensity of your e-collar to avoid the dog thinks "it's okay, with this little pain, I still can do it."


Jax08 said:


> I can't say a thing about the aggression but if your dog was screaming then the stimulation on the e-collar was wayyy to high. Did you have a trainer help you determine how to use the e-collar?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Your dog has to know why he is getting the correction for it to be useful. It wasn't fair to your dog to be continuously stimmed, IMO. I would take some steps back w/ the e-collar and work on his reactivity. Regardless of his training in protection, he obviously isn't proofed on what he thinks he should react to.

Are you working in obedience at the SchH club? This would be my focus for the time being while you continue to build your bond.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Obviously I didn't abuse him with my E-collar all the time, I love him and I would like to polish his behavior. I used to use prong colar and now moved to E-collar because I would like to get him off leashed. The reason why I put it on continuous mode was because I knew if I didn't do it, I can tell from his body language that he will attack that person brutally just like what he did to the agitator on the personal protection training months ago (before I move him to schutzhund).

Anyway, I am also thinking because his obedience level is not up there yet that he is still getting distracted by other people or dogs, so I am thinking I will strictly train him on obedience, that he has to do whatever I say instaneously just like in competition. Please tell me if I am going to the wrong direction here.


onyx'girl said:


> Your dog has to know why he is getting the correction for it to be useful. It wasn't fair to your dog to be continuously stimmed, IMO. I would take some steps back w/ the e-collar and work on his reactivity. Regardless of his training in protection, he obviously isn't proofed on what he thinks he should react to.
> 
> Are you working in obedience at the SchH club? This would be my focus for the time being while you continue to build your bond.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would definately focus on obedience, good decision~along with tracking of course! But keep it fun and not something that he feels he has to do so he isn't getting corrected. Take some steps back if you have to.
Are you in contact with the place that did the protection training? Or can a club member help you with him w/ some private lesson? 
I remember another thread that you had-worried about guests coming to stay? How'd that go?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

> he is still not offleashed in schutzhund field because the trainer is still trying to convert his view of biting as fun/game instead of a threat.


This that you said jumped out at me. My assumption on this quote is that your dog probably had some poor training and has had too much defense or suspicion work done and that your helper thinks the dog needs more balance. Jane is right. He doesn't know what to react to. If he is not considered safe at training, he may not be safe to have out in public. 

Also in regards to the E-collar. If your dog does not understand the collar, or respect you, and is at least a little hard to the correction, you can actually create more aggression while they go ahead and do what they want anyway. The pain the dog receives from the collar can cause them to unload on the object of focus, or it can also cause them to redirect to you.

I would always have him leashed or work in an area with no other people where he can be safely contained. I would work on recall exercises and keeping him focused on you and I might consider scrapping bitework for a little while or focusing on control and mental clarity in bitework.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Definitely work on obedience and your bond. He has to trust you. I wouldn't let him off leash in an area where there are other people yet.

Remember that you are undoing many years of "protection" training. Apparently, he was trained to attack without the obedience training? A personal protection dog should still have obedience and wait for a signal before attacking so I'm a bit confused on what exactly he was trained in. 

My friend had a dobie that was personal protection trained. His signal was if the other person laid a hand on her and then he was trained to grab the arm..never a full out attack. The one time he did protect her he took off a potential rapist ear...wasn't hard to find him in the ER.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

The problem with previous training was (from the trainer we bought him from) he was challenged to be aggressive, the more aggressive the better appraise he got. The reason why I took him to schutzhund club because I spoke with the trainer there, who told me that we need to desensitize him / calm him off a little bit because he was too alerted. I did private sessions with him for about a month and the trainer welcame us to the schutzhund club afterward, but since then the training has been on and off because of some events that conflicts with the schutzhund club schedule and plus I was honestly kind of pissed off because everytime I go to schutzhund club, my dog only plays in the field for about 10 minutes and I had to pay $30 each time. I have been going to club on and off about 6-8 times, and so far it's the same kind of training over and over for 10 minutes. It makes me feel that going there is a waste of money while I can play tug o war with him myself.

What do you guys think? Did you (who did schutzhund training for the dog) think that whatever I did up there make sense or should I keep going to schutzhund club?


Jax08 said:


> Definitely work on obedience and your bond. He has to trust you. I wouldn't let him off leash in an area where there are other people yet.
> 
> Remember that you are undoing many years of "protection" training. Apparently, he was trained to attack without the obedience training? A personal protection dog should still have obedience and wait for a signal before attacking so I'm a bit confused on what exactly he was trained in.
> 
> My friend had a dobie that was personal protection trained. His signal was if the other person laid a hand on her and then he was trained to grab the arm..never a full out attack. The one time he did protect her he took off a potential rapist ear...wasn't hard to find him in the ER.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks for the quick tips here, I should definitely work harder and take a few steps back in obedience training to repolish all the behaviors. I am currently re-watching the leerburg video again on e-collar training, and I notice there are some small mistakes that I make when using the e-collar based on Leerburg's theory.


JKlatsky said:


> This that you said jumped out at me. My assumption on this quote is that your dog probably had some poor training and has had too much defense or suspicion work done and that your helper thinks the dog needs more balance. Jane is right. He doesn't know what to react to. If he is not considered safe at training, he may not be safe to have out in public.
> 
> Also in regards to the E-collar. If your dog does not understand the collar, or respect you, and is at least a little hard to the correction, you can actually create more aggression while they go ahead and do what they want anyway. The pain the dog receives from the collar can cause them to unload on the object of focus, or it can also cause them to redirect to you.
> 
> I would always have him leashed or work in an area with no other people where he can be safely contained. I would work on recall exercises and keeping him focused on you and I might consider scrapping bitework for a little while or focusing on control and mental clarity in bitework.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Ah, you remember my last thread that I opened few weeks ago. My guests haven't come here yet and I have spoken with my dog trainer (who also works as a schutzhund helper in the club) on how to handle him, what he said makes sense, he told me to tell the guests to approach calmly just like whatever he did to us when we did private training, and throw some slices of sausage when he is calmed down.


onyx'girl said:


> I would definately focus on obedience, good decision~along with tracking of course! But keep it fun and not something that he feels he has to do so he isn't getting corrected. Take some steps back if you have to.
> Are you in contact with the place that did the protection training? Or can a club member help you with him w/ some private lesson?
> I remember another thread that you had-worried about guests coming to stay? How'd that go?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would still take him to the club and work on obedience, tracking only.

I pay that amount(helper fee) and I am a member of my club...we don't rush the training so sometimes it feels as if we are stagnant-but good training shouldn't be rushed.
What is the whole backstory on your dog?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

bengwie said:


> The problem with previous training was (from the trainer we bought him from) he was challenged to be aggressive, the more aggressive the better appraise he got. The reason why I took him to schutzhund club because I spoke with the trainer there, who told me that we need to desensitize him / calm him off a little bit because he was too alerted. I did private sessions with him for about a month and the trainer welcame us to the schutzhund club afterward, but since then the training has been on and off because of some events that conflicts with the schutzhund club schedule and *plus I was honestly kind of pissed off because everytime I go to schutzhund club, my dog only plays in the field for about 10 minutes and I had to pay $30 each time.* I have been going to club on and off about 6-8 times, and so far it's the same kind of training over and over for 10 minutes. It makes me feel that going there is a waste of money while I can play tug o war with him myself.
> 
> What do you guys think? Did you (who did schutzhund training for the dog) think that whatever I did up there make sense or should I keep going to schutzhund club?


Unfortunately that is the nature frequently of training. You can't work dogs for that long. Generally 10-15 minutes per session is normal, and $30 isn't way out of line. If they're not changing what the dog is doing it could be because the dog isn't ready to change. I know it may just look like someone playing tug with the dog, but you have to look at the big picture. It's a stranger, on a field, probably making some posture and watching the dog's reactions, and trying to adjust those reactions. Your dog has to change the way he thinks about protection and become clear about his job. It takes time. 

If you don't want to pay right now for the guardwork, I would keep working on the OB and tracking. But don't be surprised if your work goes right out the window when you get to club. He's probably conditioned to behave a certain way when there and it'll take time and probably some counter conditioning to put him back to where he needs to be.

If it was me, I would keep going out once a week, but focus on the TR and OB like Jane said.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Just out of my curiousity, from your experience, how long do you think it will take for my dog to be able to do offleash in schutzhund field with the 10 minutes training only (mostly tugging with the sleeve or shutzhund pillow)? 

The backstory of the dog is a personal protection dog trainer sold me this dog, which I thought this dog was already capable of everything like I see in CPI (please check out www.protectiondogs.com). This is really my first GSD, as I thought this trainer would like to sell me the same dog like in CPI but much less. Anyway we bought the dog and brought him home, he was fine with us and never shown any aggression to anyone until few weeks later when he started bonding with us. He showed aggression toward anything that came approaching us. This situation really frustrated me. We went back for some follow up trainings from the trainer who sold me my dog, he taught me on how to handle this dog, but he himself many times warns me that this dog is really aggressive so be very careful. And what he showed me everytime was yanking the pronk collar until he whimpers everytime he looks alerted (like when he was looking or just even eye-balling someone).

I thought this wasn't fair to him because it's his nature to be alerted, and as long he doesn't show aggression, I don't want to do this to him because it hurt him so bad. So I browsed around and I found about schutzhund club around my area, and decided to check it out and I spoke with the trainer. The trainer told me to bring the dog, and I did the next week itself. He evaluated my dog and told me that he was to alerted that as if he were a car, he is always at red line. So he suggested me to have private obedience training sessions with him for few weeks, so I did for 4 weeks. He showed so much difference after this obedience training as I also stopped going to follow up trainings from the trainer where I got him from. He doesn't aggress people or dogs. In the meantime, this trainer already welcome me and my dog to the schutzhund club that he knows that my dog isn't crazy. I have been going there on and off because of seeing stagnant results and paying $30 each time for 10 minutes session. I am really in doubt whether I should continue going there.

Correct me if I am wrong, when the dog is able to do bark and hold, you probably can tell that your dog is already safe for offleash, correct? Please help newbie here. Thanks.


onyx'girl said:


> I would still take him to the club and work on obedience, tracking only.
> 
> I pay that amount(helper fee) and I am a member of my club...we don't rush the training so sometimes it feels as if we are stagnant-but good training shouldn't be rushed.
> What is the whole backstory on your dog?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Before the PP trainer had the dog, where did he come from? Was he kennel raised, unsocialized?
H&B doesn't mean that much as far as obedience goes. Some dogs will bite dirty in the blind. 
I would stick with the SchH trainer and do some private lessons with him. The PP used compulsion on your dog, so he has no foundation to fall back on. I wouldn't go back there at all.

Basically you are going to have to desensitise him and start over. Training takes time and when rushed you get the results you have been seeing with your boy.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks so much Jane for the advise. You really make me see a light at the end of my tunnel here. I am going to schutzhund training tonight, and you're right I shouldn't rush, but sometimes impatience comes out of my mind, it's clearly my fault. I would re-do the foundation over to make sure he is perfect. 


onyx'girl said:


> Before the PP trainer had the dog, where did he come from? Was he kennel raised, unsocialized?
> H&B doesn't mean that much as far as obedience goes. Some dogs will bite dirty in the blind.
> I would stick with the SchH trainer and do some private lessons with him. The PP used compulsion on your dog, so he has no foundation to fall back on. I wouldn't go back there at all.
> 
> Basically you are going to have to desensitise him and start over. Training takes time and when rushed you get the results you have been seeing with your boy.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

bengwie said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, when the dog is able to do bark and hold, you probably can tell that your dog is already safe for offleash, correct? Please help newbie here. Thanks.


You're wrong.  If your dog can be sent in for a Bark and Hold, maintain it even when the helper moves, and with a variety of distractions, and you can then reliably call the dog away from the helper, heel the dog around the field with the helper there and ask for sits and downs and attention to you and not the helper...then you probably have a safe dog.

ETA- Good attitude! Best of luck with your dog. Taking the time to do it right will pay off in the end.


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## bengwie (Jul 8, 2010)

Cool guys, I just got home from schutzhund training, he is getting so much better, his tail is wagging, he is not as nervous, and I have understood better (thanks to Leerburg video). I am getting a little more addicted now..


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bengwie said:


> Thanks for the quick tips here, I should definitely work harder and take a few steps back in obedience training to repolish all the behaviors. I am currently re-watching the leerburg video again on e-collar training, and I notice there are some small mistakes that I make when using the e-collar based on Leerburg's theory.


If your dog was trained to bite AND not listen to obedience commands; it would appear to me that whoever trained him previously did a most poor job! And that you would have to back up and train him so he reacts reliably to your obedience command before you ever turn him loose off lead. Otherwise you have a lawsuit just waiting to happen!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> You're wrong.  If your dog can be sent in for a Bark and Hold, maintain it even when the helper moves, and with a variety of distractions, and you can then reliably call the dog away from the helper, heel the dog around the field with the helper there and ask for sits and downs and attention to you and not the helper...then you probably have a safe dog.


Jklatsky is right and the key word is probably. A lot of it will also depend on who the dog is doing the H & B on. A dog can be very clean with one helper and then you put another helper with less presence in the blinds and the dog decides he is going to punk the helper just to show him who is boss. Last week I did a H & B in a bitesuit with a Sch3 regional lvl dog and he did 5 barks and then bite me in the crotch (thank god for the padding lol). No matter how well trained, never forget they are still dogs ... so put as much obedience on the dog as you can.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> You're wrong.  If your dog can be sent in for a Bark and Hold, maintain it even when the helper moves, and with a variety of distractions, and you can then reliably call the dog away from the helper, heel the dog around the field with the helper there and ask for sits and downs and attention to you and not the helper...then you probably have a safe dog.


Jklatsky is right and the key word is "probably". A lot of it will also depend on who the dog is doing the H & B on. A dog can be very clean with one helper and then you put another helper with less presence in the blinds and the dog decides he is going to punk the helper just to show him who is boss. Also, sometimes if you present a different picture to the dog, he may decide to act differently. Last week I did a H & B in a bitesuit with a Sch3 regional lvl dog (new helper, new picture) and he did 5 barks and then WHAM bit me in the crotch (thank god for the padding lol). No matter how well trained, never forget they are still dogs ... so put as much obedience on the dog as you can.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

bengwie said:


> Just out of my curiousity, from your experience, how long do you think it will take for my dog to be able to do offleash in schutzhund field with the 10 minutes training only (mostly tugging with the sleeve or shutzhund pillow)?


Depends on the dog and the training, but I can tell you about mine. He is 22 months old and can run blinds (not just patterned train but wherever I direct), I can call him out of the blind, and he heels when walking behind the helper (back transport?). We're still working on being able to heel next to the helper. We've trained protection on average once a week. Sometimes we train twice a week, but there are also MANY weeks where I am on vacation or the club is on a break and we don't train at all. If you do the right foundation and have reasonably good genetics and a good helper/trainer it will come together. My dog tends to pick up things really quick in one or two sessions. He's very biddable and doesn't get overloaded, not object oriented for the sleeve so his secondary obedience/control has been easier for me than some of my friends with their dogs who just lunge and shriek nonstop anytime a sleeve is in view. Often my dog is still on a line but I'm using this for corrections to polish things, not for control/restraint. Many times he just has a little tab on his collar and no leash.

Every dog is different, don't rush things. Bitework is new to me so after each session my helper gives me a chance to say what I thought or ask any questions and then he says what was good and/or what needs work. My dog does not have the genetics of great working line dogs but he loves the work, relishes the fight up close and physical, and each week makes progress. Sometimes there are little issues that crop up and are frustrating but if I look at six months or so at a time, I can see huge progress was made overall.


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