# Planning my first breeding this fall



## Twink90

My girl Trinty turned 2 today! We have been training in schutzhund & AKC since she was 6 months old. Show record
5 months took VP1 at regional conformation
16 mo got her BH & SG conformation at regionals

AKC 10 mo Reserve Champion conformation 
13 mo earned her BN title
14 mo got CGC title
Has 2 legs in rally novice
1 leg in obedience novice

My mom found a beautiful west German show line that's going to breed my girl in trade for pick pup. Wallaby Feetback has his BH & FH. Am I nervous yes I've never bred a dog before always had them fixed but Trinity is special. She is. Working showline mx. 
Both dogs have A ratings on hips & elbows. I will be testing for DM & STD before breeding. 

Now I'm researching everything I could possibly need for a pregnant dog & how to raise healthy pups! I'm going to be a wreck till pups arrive & she won't even be in heat till sept. Both dogs are on pedigreedatabase 
Darkwing Von Twinks Trinity


----------



## devinh

Post some pics if you can.


----------



## onyx'girl

SG Darkwing Von Twinks Trinity
Wallaby Feetback = http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=1343183&mother=2048339


Have you found a breeder to mentor you? That would help in the whelping and puppy raising.


----------



## Twink90

My mother owns Trinitys dad so she is helping. I have 2 friends that ran a hunt club kennel & are pros at birthing pups. They will be by my side when it's time as I'm going to be a basket case 
I also have an amazing trainer that will help me. I do actually have some pups already spoken for which is awesome. They should be amazing pups with both parents being tracking machines & stunning. 
I have recent photos of Wallaby as that's a baby pic on the database page. Just not sure how to post picks on here.


----------



## Twink90

*Wallaby*

I made an album. & put pictures of Trinity & recent photos of Wallaby this is Wallaby the male







\uc0\u8236 }


----------



## martemchik

Any reason you're not waiting to get an IPO1 on her before you breed? And why are you going with a stud that only has a BH?


----------



## Twink90

Wallaby has BH & FH his pedigree isn't updated. I'm choosing to breed her now & with this male for a couple reasons. Were ready for a pup to start training, my trainer suggested it to help her mature & increase her defense. These pups will be more suitable as showline & pet homes which are the people that have been asking me for pups that have watched Trinity grow up. 
She won't be bred again till we get our IPO & she will be bred to a strong working line to increase the drive. Hope that makes sense


----------



## hunterisgreat

Twink90 said:


> Wallaby has BH & FH his pedigree isn't updated. I'm choosing to breed her now & with this male for a couple reasons. Were ready for a pup to start training, my trainer suggested it to help her mature & increase her defense. These pups will be more suitable as showline & pet homes which are the people that have been asking me for pups that have watched Trinity grow up.
> She won't be bred again till we get our IPO & she will be bred to a strong working line to increase the drive. Hope that makes sense


Don't you have a pup to train right now? lol

If you breed to a strong working line, a couple things to consider...

Pups may get the working line's stronger aggression/defense drives without the necessary nerve strength to handle that drive. You will also lose the folks who want what your female is, as the pups won't be that similar to her. 

It would be more advisable to find a strong showline than cross IMO.


----------



## Chris Wild

Good luck with the breeding. I must comment on this however...



Twink90 said:


> my trainer suggested it to help her mature & increase her defense.


Hogwash. She just turned 2. She will mature in her own time. Same for defense. She will either develop it or she won't. She doesn't need a litter for that to happen and this sort of thinking should not have any bearing on deciding whether or not to breed a dog.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Chris Wild said:


> Good luck with the breeding. I must comment on this however...
> 
> 
> 
> Hogwash. She just turned 2. She will mature in her own time. Same for defense. She will either develop it or she won't. She doesn't need a litter for that to happen and this sort of thinking should not have any bearing on deciding whether or not to breed a dog.


I hope its not true... or after Katya's first breeding I'll have to keep her in a box under my bed when not training lol


----------



## Twink90

Thanks for your thoughts on the breeding of my girl. I guess in a way I'm extremely excited to get a pup from my girl. My plans for it is search. & rescue but I'm sure many will tell me I'm wrong for doing this. 
My vet said this a great age for her first breeding, & it's going to be a huge learning experience for me. Both bloodlines are very good, both dogs are stunning with even temperament. Both fabulous trackers & smart so I'm looking forward to a pup . My husband has been wanting a GSD for 2 yrs. & we decided to wait till we bred Trinity. I've always been the person to spay/. Neuter everything. This is me going outside my comfort zone & praying for an amazing outcome. Knowing I already have homes lined up is the other reason I'm going for it. 








\uc0\u8236 }


----------



## The Stig

Sounds like you are a woman with a plan, and I wish you all the best.

I do agree with Jane that finding an experienced breeder to mentor you would go a long way, especially since this is your first time.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

hunterisgreat said:


> Don't you have a pup to train right now? lol
> 
> If you breed to a strong working line, a couple things to consider...
> 
> Pups may get the working line's stronger aggression/defense drives without the necessary nerve strength to handle that drive. You will also lose the folks who want what your female is, as the pups won't be that similar to her.
> 
> It would be more advisable to find a strong showline than cross IMO.


I had one of these. A LOT of aggression no nerve. She was also a child biter.


----------



## szariksdad

while it is easy to look at all the positives in each dog. also remember to look at the negatives since there will be one or two puppies that will show those traits and be prepared to deal with those.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I am curious. You said at 10 months old AKC reserve championship. I have done AKC shows for years and years and not heard of this "award".
Is she actually an AKC Champion or do you mean Reserve Winners Bitch?
If you mean Reserve Winners Bitch, then does she have any points towards her Championship? If not, then this Reserve Championship award is actually Reserve Winners Bitch which means she was 2nd best of the female German Shepherds that day. Not really a noteworthy award or something to base her greatness to breed.
AKC does not have a Reserve Championship award.. They have class winners, winners dog and bitch, reserve winners dog and bitch ,Best of Breed and at some big enough entry shows Award of Merit and then points towards a grand Champion. Then you have Group placements and Best In Show and since recently Reserve Best in Show.

I have a ton of Reserve Winners ribbons for both males and females.


----------



## Anubis_Star

I too am curious why this male, outside of simple convenience? Neither pedigree seems that amazing or spectacular. There are plenty of people breeding good looking dogs with ok drives and "work" history.

Have you ever done search and rescue? I havent, but a couple women in my club do and I work a lot with a local search and rescue group through my clinic, from what they've told me, ipo tracking is really nothing compared to real scent detection work. So just because a dog has an FH to me doesn't mean he would be a great search dog. And really I would hope any dog could get a BH with decent training.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Anubis_Star

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I had one of these. A LOT of aggression no nerve. She was also a child biter.


My wgsl/Czech working line was extremely fear aggressive. His wgsl stud was super sweet, wl bitch was a monster

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Twink90

I do have close friends in search & rescue. I have access to actual human remains. My moms a nurse, dad's a cop. & their best friend has the dogs that search for dead people on land. & in water. So to answer your question yes I do have help. 
As for her AKC conformation no she doesn't have points as my dog doesn't walk on her hocks. She has a strong croup straight back. Her mother was a working line, her father is showline. I personally think both these dogs have what I'm looking for in her first breeding.
As I said before we will continue schutzhund training in the spring. Our goal next year is IPO-1, AD, possible IPO R. The trials in my area are limited so she won't be bred again till 2016 if we achieve our goals because of when trials are held.
I do actually have goals set & have a plan for my girl that has been thought out . I've waited 42 years to have my first litter of pups so trust me, this has been a long time coming! Thanks for your concerns. I'm actually doing her training myself, something a lot of people can't say


----------



## martemchik

Twink90 said:


> I'm actually doing her training myself, something a lot of people can't say


Actually...A LOT of people can say that.


----------



## Anubis_Star

martemchik said:


> Actually...A LOT of people can say that.


I don't know very many sport competitors that DONT do their own training

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wyominggrandma

So I was right. All your girl has is a reserve from the classes.. If you are going to use AKC " reserve championship "as a build up for breeding her, please use the correct terminology so anyone interested in buying these fabulous  puppies are aware she has nothing towards her AKC championship except a reserve from the classes which in the scheme of things means nothing really. Using the excuse "she doesn't walk on her hocks" as to why she has no points is not truthful. 
Breeding a litter is hard work and very expensive if done correctly. Just remember the folks who are just dying for a puppy now will most likely be too busy. Moving to a new ,house going on vacation etc when it's time to actually pay for the puppy. Don't breed because you already think you have the litter sold. Breed with the idea that you are going to be responsible for placing the while litter .


----------



## Liesje

I think some people are too harsh. This board preaches about training, titling, having good mentors, etc and it seems you are actively doing all of that. What titles are important to me will be different than for you or the next poster in this thread. My advice would be to be very careful when choosing a stud. I'm saying this in general, not because I have any feelings one way or another about the dog chosen. When crossing pedigrees like this it can be harder to predict the outcome. I have a WGSL/WL cross puppy right now so I'm not going to tell you not to do that or not to breed such a dog but it can be an uphill battle, generally frowned upon by both camps. Choose a stud that will help express what you like about your female, not one that you think (hope?) will overcome any shortcomings, if that makes sense? Maintain or enhance what you like and try to find a stud that can do it with the right bloodlines.


----------



## Sabis mom

Twink90 said:


> I do have close friends in search & rescue. I have access to actual human remains. My moms a nurse, dad's a cop. & their best friend has the dogs that search for dead people on land. & in water. So to answer your question yes I do have help.
> As for her AKC conformation no she doesn't have points as my dog doesn't walk on her hocks. She has a strong croup straight back. Her mother was a working line, her father is showline. I personally think both these dogs have what I'm looking for in her first breeding.
> As I said before we will continue schutzhund training in the spring. Our goal next year is IPO-1, AD, possible IPO R. The trials in my area are limited so she won't be bred again till 2016 if we achieve our goals because of when trials are held.
> I do actually have goals set & have a plan for my girl that has been thought out . I've waited 42 years to have my first litter of pups so trust me, this has been a long time coming! Thanks for your concerns. I'm actually doing her training myself, something a lot of people can't say


There is a huge difference between a SAR dog and a cadaver dog. One searches for live people, one searches for bodies. Having access to human remains is not going to help training to search for living people, nor can human remains be handed over to the general public, which includes 'nurses and cops'.

Aside from that, there are plenty of wonderful dogs, with 'work' ability that should not be bred. If you are breeding because you want a litter, fine. But as others have said, be honest with yourself and be aware of the dogs faults. Keep in mind that shepherds commonly have large litters, 10-12 is not uncommon. Do you have the ability to care for that many dogs? Do you get that if push comes to shove these pups are your responsibility for life? You do understand that many of the people who say they want a pup now will have gotten one already, changed their minds, moved away, etc?
I am not trying to discourage you, rather just get you to take a good, hard look at the reality. Good luck.


----------



## Anubis_Star

One of my club members does cadaver work. The dogs do air scenting. Tracking in ipo will do NOTHING for cadaver work. In fact she almost didn't do ipo training with the pup because she didn't want the tracking work to interfere with cadaver work

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Anubis_Star

Liesje said:


> I think some people are too harsh. This board preaches about training, titling, having good mentors, etc and it seems you are actively doing all of that. What titles are important to me will be different than for you or the next poster in this thread. My advice would be to be very careful when choosing a stud. I'm saying this in general, not because I have any feelings one way or another about the dog chosen. When crossing pedigrees like this it can be harder to predict the outcome. I have a WGSL/WL cross puppy right now so I'm not going to tell you not to do that or not to breed such a dog but it can be an uphill battle, generally frowned upon by both camps. Choose a stud that will help express what you like about your female, not one that you think (hope?) will overcome any shortcomings, if that makes sense? Maintain or enhance what you like and try to find a stud that can do it with the right bloodlines.


Being honest isn't harsh. What produces lower quality dogs is when every person that does any amount of training decides their dog should be bred just because it has a basic behavior title, especially when they don't know about breeding and don't have proper mentors. I've seen very very few wgsl/wl combos that have worked. One I know is handsome and a decent dog in sports but definitely has his flaws.

It's not just about the stud and bitch. It's about their lines, especially since the bitch is a mix of two very different lines. What do the dogs in her ancestry produce? In his? How would these two dogs compliment eachother? How would these pedigrees compliment eachother? What are some potential negatives that could be thrown? Too drivey? Skittish? Etc?

There should be a reason to breed two dogs, because there is something beneficial coming from them. A BH title and a tracking title is not beneficial and not a reason.

And it is illegal to handle and distribute Human remains unless you are licensed to do so, which a nurse and a cop are not. My club member usually goes to research facilities that study environmental effects on human decomposition to practice.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wyominggrandma

I have to chuckle over this owner who is planning after 40 plus years to breed her first litter. As stated above just because your dad is a cop and your mom is a nurse doesn't mean you have legal access to human remains. I have help train police dogs and the cops did not have acces to human remains just because they were cops. And this one cops wife was a surgical nurse ans she did not have acces to human remains. So if you are not licensed nor your parents are licensed to have and handle human remains then somebody is doing something illegal. Then she comments that her female at 10 months has an AKC reserve championship and that does exist. 
Sorry if this is harsh but I see a dog owner who's lifelong dream is to breed a litter of GSD and has a nice female and a free male for sperm and is building up her planned litter to herself to prove she is so very ready to breed without knowing what this mixed litter of bloodlines is going to produce. Might turn out awesome. Might turn out a litter of puppies with temperament issues at the least.
But at least as a breeder be honest and know what awards and titles your female actually has. It just reminds me so much of people who try to talk big about "my dog is a Champion" when in reality it has won ribbons at the local county fair. Or the breeder close to me who is selling AKC registered American Bulldogs. Um AKC doesn't register that breed. Be factual, don't overstate and study and figure out exactly why you are breeding.


----------



## Twink90

Chuckle away because none of you know me & for that I am thankful. For you to judge me because I'm not like you is pitiful. I'm putting the time into training my dog. The money into showing her & feeding her the best raw food to ensure she is healthy. I've done the research & had tests done by working with my vet, her moms breeder, her dad's kennel & several other local kennels. 
I'm know my parents can't carry around human remains but several people in one of the 3 clubs we participate in is licensed to. So glad I joined this forum so I could be bashed & treAted like **** for doing everything in my power to have healthy pups. I wonder how many others have been shunned by this forum & instead of help they left here feeling worthless & more alone without receiving knowledge or assistance that they were hoping for. 
Me & my girl will prove you wrong. It's been a fight from day 1 because she is a show working mix. This isn't out first battle & won't be our last. She is an amazing dog that got the best from both her parents.


----------



## Sabis mom

No one is bashing you and I for one, am glad you have an awesome dog.

All anyone is trying to do is make sure you have a clear picture of the reality. 

I have the biggest mess of a dog ever born, I'm sure. So I would be the last one to point fingers. I hope everything goes well for you. I was simply trying to point out a few things. In a breed that is plagued by health and temperament issues, and every Joe wanting to breed, you cannot be to careful. 

At the end of the day you will do as you please and for the sake of the pups you will produce, I sincerely hope that all goes as planned.


----------



## martemchik

Why did you expect people to support something they are completely against? A quick search of this forum would’ve told you everything you need to know about how this forum feels about what you’re doing. The things you listed…pretty much all of us do for our pets. You’re a great dog owner…doesn’t mean those things change the way I feel about your dog being bred.

We all know there’s nothing we can do to stop you. Go ahead. “Prove us wrong.” There’s nothing to prove. Anyone here can produce healthy puppies…doesn’t mean they should.

It was interesting to me that OP tried to brag about her accomplishment in the AKC ring, and then a few posts later was “ripping” the AKC ring for rewarding dogs that “walk on their hocks.” Why brag about something if you don’t actually respect/approve of that venue?

The puppies you produce are going to be pets. No one that's serious about Schutzhund work will want one, and no one that's serious about SV shows will want one. Most people don't support breeding GSDs for the "pet market."

OP, you’re not the first person, or the last, to join this forum and post about how you’re having puppies and expect to get “YAY! More GSD puppies! We love puppies! Good luck!” And instead got what you got…

With as much experience as you claim to have...I'm really surprised you expected anything but what you got. One visit to a GSD club or a Schutzhund club, or anything to do with dog shows/trials would've taught you how people feel about breedings such as this one.


----------



## Twink90

I did remove the AKC conformation from her pedigree page. That was my fault as I was extremely proud of it since it was her first AKC show. Some of us have to start somewhere & I'm glad I didn't start trying to learn from this forum. I actually regret coming here. I love my dog like my child. & would do anything in the world for her. If need be yes I am capable of keeping. & raising every pup if I had to. Bonus for owning a farm in the country 
The kennels that are helping me already warned me about pups being returned, or homes not working out. Again you don't know me, or what my intentions are so keep jumping to conclusions to try & make yourself feel better. Life will go on


----------



## martemchik

Serious question...did you really expect that people that have HOT IPO3 bitches to really be impressed by the fact that you're training in Schutzhund and your female has the easiest of AKC obedience titles and is also showing in rally? You're probably in an area where Schutzhund isn't that big...so its understandable when you log onto a website and don't take time to see that the majority of people that contribute here, work their dogs in Schutzhund.

I mean...you should definitely be proud of what you've accomplished. I'm on my first dog and I was very excited about my CD, BN, CGC, RE, ect. But do those titles really equate to an IPO3? Or do you really think someone that does SAR with their dog is going to be impressed by a dog that got his FH...but doesn't have his IPO1 for some reason?

There's a big reason why you don't really see people bragging about conformation titles on this forum as well...its a great accomplishment, but the majority of us know how those work and its kind of hard to look at it without bias.


----------



## DaniFani

Curious how the male has a BH and an FH? Don't you need the TR 1, 2, and 3 (Or SchH 1,2,3) to get the FH? Can you skip all those and go for the FH? Why would one do that? Or is it not the title I am thinking of?


----------



## Twink90

No I didn't research this forum before I joined it. I was doing research on breeding & found this. I didn't find the male we are breeding to, my parents friends who own & train found him. All her dogs are ipo3 even her bitches. So yes I assumed they knew what was best. 
When I got Trinity I was going to spay her as I've never agreed with breeding & I've never bred before. Then I began training with her. & had several trainers. & an amazing schutzhund trainer tell me she has potential. 
If this breeding doesn't work I'm prepared to spay/neuter everything as the last thing we need is more unwanted animals! I've done animal rescue my entire life which is why for me to consider breeding g is a HUGE responsibility to me. I'm not taking this lightly, & that's also why we went to a showline & not a working line. 
Opinions are welcome that's what I was looking for. We are training for our IPO, she is almost ready but I'm not. She is actually smarter then me. & I slow her down. Again I didn't come here thinking my dog was a god but it's like having a group of people ****ting on your child & it's hard.


----------



## DaniFani

Twink90 said:


> No I didn't research this forum before I joined it. I was doing research on breeding & found this. I didn't find the male we are breeding to, my parents friends who own & train found him. All her dogs are ipo3 even her bitches. So yes I assumed they knew what was best.
> When I got Trinity I was going to spay her as I've never agreed with breeding & I've never bred before. Then I began training with her. & had several trainers. & an amazing schutzhund trainer tell me *she has potential.*
> If this breeding doesn't work I'm prepared to spay/neuter everything as the last thing we need is more unwanted animals! I've done animal rescue my entire life which is why for me to consider breeding g is a HUGE responsibility to me. I'm not taking this lightly, & that's also why we went to a showline & not a working line.
> Opinions are welcome that's what I was looking for. *We are training for our IPO, she is almost ready but I'm not. She is actually smarter then me. & I slow her down.* Again I didn't come here thinking my dog was a god but it's like having a group of people ****ting on your child & it's hard.


I guess what I'm missing and not understanding is why are you breeding BEFORE the titles/proof? If she has "potential" and is "ready" why are you not waiting to get those titles, to have more than a "hope" and have actual proof that she is what you and others say she is? I just don't get that. If she's as wonderful as expected, those titles should be a breeze. I just don't understand breeding on "potential" instead of "proof."


----------



## Liesje

DaniFani said:


> Curious how the male has a BH and an FH? Don't you need the TR 1, 2, and 3 (Or SchH 1,2,3) to get the FH? Can you skip all those and go for the FH? Why would one do that? Or is it not the title I am thinking of?


I believe all you need for an FH is the BH.


----------



## DaniFani

Liesje said:


> I believe all you need for an FH is the BH.


Yeah, I just started googling...apparently it's just the BH. Interesting, I did not know that. I wonder if that's done often.


----------



## Liesje

I guess if trials are few and far between and tracking is the goal, it would make sense. Why go through the motions earning a TR1-3 when the dog is training for the FH and might have to wait to trial? I've not seen it done, but that's what comes to mind.


----------



## martemchik

Here’s the thing. You love your dog just as much as all of us love our dogs. Nothing you have done to this point has proven to anyone that your dog is more breedworthy than any one of our regular pets. You’ve been told by people that you believe to be knowledgeable that your dog should be bred, but no one knows those people and an objective review of your dog says otherwise.

I think you need to realize that it’s not that people don’t think your dog should be bred. It’s that at the present moment, nothing says she should be. You can scream from the mountain tops about how great she is…but you aren’t very objective about that. If you had that IPO1 on her, and said you were breeding to an IPO3 stud, no one would have any questions or care that much. But you threw out some very low level titles that really don’t impress many people when it comes to breeding (I have many of them myself and from what I saw two weeks ago at a Schutzhund trial, I can easily get a BH).

Your breeding plans look great from the surface…but its underneath that people question. All the things you have lined up just tell us that you’re a great pet owner…it doesn’t really guarantee that the puppies are going to be that amazing.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Breeding is a legal activity. You don't have to explain yourself to anyone on here. Chris Wild who actually is a breeder offered a kind response to you. 

I find it interesting that Chris didn't take you to task but those who are not breeders seem fit to pick you apart. 

I wish they would eliminate this sub-forum. These threads always turn out this way.

Good luck with your litter.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I only said the truth about her "titles" with her female. If you are going to brag about an AKC title, then make sure you know what you are talking about. The OP came back on and said" I am proud of her because it was her first show". Okay, fine, but getting a reserve winners ribbon is not an AKC RESERVE CHAMPION...That title she made up. Doesn't exist. And getting a reserve ribbon actually means the first loser, again, not something to brag about to make a dog breeding quality. Sure you can be proud of your dog getting a reserve ribbon, but again, do not make up a title.
Hey, Jacks Dad, I have bred and shown dogs for years many many different breeds. I do have years and years experience, and I did not take her to task. If she breeds, that is her choice. I just brought up things that actually made her look uninformed and novice by her explanation of her glorious titles.


----------



## my boy diesel

well there are people here who have a lot less titling going on than this gal and are breeding their dogs and acting like they are big shots in the breeding world so

plus to the op your dog is gorgeous
just what i would look for in a gsd
did you mention hip and elbow scores for both parents to be?


----------



## Jack's Dad

wyominggrandma said:


> I only said the truth about her "titles" with her female. If you are going to brag about an AKC title, then make sure you know what you are talking about. The OP came back on and said" I am proud of her because it was her first show". Okay, fine, but getting a reserve winners ribbon is not an AKC RESERVE CHAMPION...That title she made up. Doesn't exist. And getting a reserve ribbon actually means the first loser, again, not something to brag about to make a dog breeding quality. Sure you can be proud of your dog getting a reserve ribbon, but again, do not make up a title.
> Hey, Jacks Dad, I have bred and shown dogs for years many many different breeds. I do have years and years experience, and I did not take her to task. If she breeds, that is her choice. I just brought up things that actually made her look uninformed and novice by her explanation of her glorious titles.


Well at some point at the start of your breeding career I'll bet you wouldn't have been acceptable with this crowd either.









People have been run off for bringing up breeding and I really fail to see what that accomplishes.

The standards set here are not what everyone wants or believes in.


----------



## wyominggrandma

Jacks Dad: won't say yea or nay to that. I spent years and years working with top breeders and show kennels on the road and at their places learning and learning before I attempted my first breeding. My first breeding was a Champion bred to a Champion, and the litter had four Champions in it. I relied on help from top kennels/breeders/handlers to learn before I jumped in just because I thought my female was great and bred to a dog that someone found for me.
To each his own. I understand where you are coming from. I do believe it is a persons right to do what they want with their dog, but mainly I was not saying she shouldn't breed, I was saying she needed to know what she was bragging about before she went onto a forum and made brags about titles that didn't exist. I was giving her some advice, like the others: don't plan on having the puppies sold before they are born, things change real fast when the people who wanted puppies at first have other interests, etc. You know that happens all the time. Plus, as many breeders know, there is always the risk of losing your female, the litter and or both and everyone should realize the risks of that, not just have all the rainbows and happiness about producing babies and then suddenly losing it all.
So, the OP can breed to her hearts content as far as I am concerned. But don't come onto a public forum, as for advice and expect everybody to be excited for you. Especially since her reply seems to be" I am working on this title and that title and my girl is good enough to do them".......... 
Of course people are going to bristle with comments like that. Most people who breed for the betterment of the breed, or any breed, do it with a reason and a plan of action and prove the dogs are worthy of breeding by obtaining titles, which ever they may be, to prove the dogs are worthy of breeding after obtaining them, not before , just because somebody said "she is fantastic".


----------



## Anubis_Star

Why is it people can't be honest without being shunned for hurting feelings? I've seen that a lot on here the last couple days. I mean, no offense to the OP, and yes she can do whatever she wants, but it doesn't seem like an appropriate breeding plan for numerous reasons. Why can that not be pointed out? If people would simply step back and look at the advice offered they could learn so much. Why do we need to hold everyone's hand?

Another pet breeder is the last thing the breed needs.

Everyone at my club says berlin has amazing potential in the sport. Yet I've never gotten the impression that a single one of them has implied that means I should run off and breed him. A rural area with not many big trials? Some of the dogs I've seen get ipo1 and ipo2 at local small trials here... I would never want to have a puppy from...

Breeding a male with an FH to produce a cadaver dog? First I would hope you would know for a fact there are numerous dogs from his pedigree and siblings successfully doing SAR and cadaver work. And as mentioned before ipo tracking is nothing like SAR work.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## wyominggrandma

Agreed Aunbis star. 
If you can't handle the truth, then don't post to a forum asking for advice.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Anubis_Star said:


> Why is it people can't be honest without being shunned for hurting feelings? I've seen that a lot on here the last couple days. I mean, no offense to the OP, and yes she can do whatever she wants, but it doesn't seem like an appropriate breeding plan for numerous reasons. Why can that not be pointed out? If people would simply step back and look at the advice offered they could learn so much. Why do we need to hold everyone's hand?
> 
> Another pet breeder is the last thing the breed needs.
> 
> Everyone at my club says berlin has amazing potential in the sport. Yet I've never gotten the impression that a single one of them has implied that means I should run off and breed him. A rural area with not many big trials? Some of the dogs I've seen get ipo1 and ipo2 at local small trials here... I would never want to have a puppy from...
> 
> Breeding a male with an FH to produce a cadaver dog? First I would hope you would know for a fact there are numerous dogs from his pedigree and siblings successfully doing SAR and cadaver work. And as mentioned before ipo tracking is nothing like SAR work.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What you call honesty is really only your view or opinion, it's not something cast in stone from the breed gods.

What people are calling honesty is what I call lecturing and interrogating.

Wyoming: Look closely, she didn't ask for advice, simply shared what she is doing.


----------



## Twink90

Number one I never stated my dog had an AKC conformation title. YOU came up with that. & rode it down the hill, back up. & off a bridge at this point. On her pedigree it states an SG BN CGC BH she has another leg before we get our CD & RN. So if your going to twist my wording please do it correctly. 
I did have as her timeline descrption at 10 months she took reserve champion no mention of title nor did I put It in front of her name. Thank you


----------



## Merciel

Anubis_Star said:


> Another pet breeder is the last thing the breed needs.


Eh. I mean, there's a market. Whether you or I agree with it, the demand is there, and what the OP describes is certainly above-average for most pet breeders out there.

...but yes, as things currently stand, a lot of people are going to look at this pairing and say "okay that's a pet breeding," and I think that's where the disconnect started with this thread.


----------



## my boy diesel

*Look closely, she didn't ask for advice, simply shared what she is doing.*
this exactly


----------



## wyominggrandma

Excuse me for not being perfect like you guys are.
I was trying to tell her the mistake of her "reserve championship" being listed on the time line. No such thing, and maybe by telling her, she would save herself some embarrassment at a future date when someone said the same thing, no such thing as Reserve Champion, maybe folks coming to look at her puppies......
Guess that was my mistake. Trying to help someone new at breeding.
I will leave this discussion to the obvious experts.........


----------



## Mrs.P

my boy diesel said:


> *Look closely, she didn't ask for advice, simply shared what she is doing.*
> this exactly



She was clearing up misinformation stated by the OP not being snarky.


----------



## sehrgutcsg

*Must Agree Here Folk's..*



Twink90 said:


> Chuckle away because none of you know me & for that I am thankful. For you to judge me because I'm not like you is pitiful. I'm putting the time into training my dog. The money into showing her & feeding her the best raw food to ensure she is healthy. I've done the research & had tests done by working with my vet, her moms breeder, her dad's kennel & several other local kennels.
> 
> I'm know my parents can't carry around human remains but several people in one of the 3 clubs we participate in is licensed to. So glad I joined this forum so I could be bashed & treated like POOP for doing everything in my power to have healthy pups. I wonder how many others have been shunned by this forum & instead of help they left here feeling worthless & more alone without receiving knowledge or assistance that they were hoping for.
> 
> Me & my girl will prove you wrong. It's been a fight from day 1 because she is a show working mix. This isn't out first battle & won't be our last. She is an amazing dog that got the best from both her parents.


I must agree with the OP on this one, sorry ladies and gent's. Treat her like a BYB, shun her accomplishments, make her feel inferior. It's not the choice of the peanut gallery, who breeds to whom and for what reasons. I will admit that 2 years is young imo and it may not change one thing about the Dam's future, but she will be better prepared to be a mommy in the future from this breeding. I am not for or against this breeding to take place now or otherwise, but the bickering here is prevalent, obvious and somewhat disconcerting. Judge not, have a discussion and give the girl a break, there are people who can help the OP but, the lynch mob mentality prevails more often then not. Save it for the dumbest of the dumb, who breeds without consideration and breaks every rule along the way, not a new member who is looking for acceptance and approval, it's easy to give and to be kind.. Try it, you might feel better when the good Lord bites YOU in the behind, it happens all the time to everybody. Best of luck, hope for the best and the client's who wish they had a dog (pup's) like your's..:wub:


----------



## selzer

The dog looks like a nice dog. And you know your bitch. It sounds like you have a plan and put a lot of thought into what you are doing. 

Good luck with your litter.


----------



## Twink90

Thank you, I seriously did not get on here to start trouble. From now on I will be careful as to what I post . Like most of you my girl is my baby so maybe my responses were not proper. I get defensive about her. She hasn't left my side since she was 8 weeks old 

She is also quite a high flyer!! Which is scary to me!


----------



## JakodaCD OA

gorgeous dogs. as usual, take what information helps you from people like Chris Wild, who posted, who IS a breeder and actively trials her dogs. The rest, well what can I say, you've gotten some helpful info, and some as usual, not so helpful info.

Find a good breeder mentor and go from there..I think your heading in the right direction with trialing/titling, keep going


----------



## robk

Twink90 said:


> Thank you, I seriously did not get on here to start trouble. *From now on I will be careful as to what I post* . Like most of you my girl is my baby so maybe my responses were not proper. I get defensive about her. She hasn't left my side since she was 8 weeks old
> 
> She is also quite a high flyer!! Which is scary to me!


Yes, sometimes posting something here is like opening pandoras box.


----------



## Liesje

The problem is that this forum sometimes has a double standard. What is OK for some people is not for others. There are a LOT of breeders, ones that most of us probably know of and respect, that will breed a dog right around two years of age who may not have ALL the training and titles intended for that dog. We don't control heat cycles and we can't always work around minimal trial schedules or the availability of the right stud. Breeding is not black and white, nor is it a checklist that you mark off and then say "OK now I will breed...." There are so many factors involved and believe me, it's NEVER perfect, there's always going to be some obstacle or compromise due to timing, availability, etc. 

It's also fairly common among show lines to breed young dogs right away as sort of a "test", just make sure the dogs can actually reproduce and aren't producing a litter that's majority unhealthy or bad temperament._* I'm not condoning this*_, just bringing it up because apparently based on the responses in this thread people are not aware this stuff happens and happens with breeders they probably revere. It's just not publicized on a forum because when most people breed they have their own reasons and don't need justification or to be shot down by people that have never met the dogs and probably wouldn't be prospective buyers for the puppies. People that do this are often already placed up on a pedestal.

I don't know the OP, I don't know the dogs in this breeding and did not even look at their pedigree so I refuse to say whether she should do this breeding or not, I'm just saying in general it's a free country so we can all put our money where our mouths are and let that show the breedings and breeders we support. If people want to buy the OPs puppies because they know these dogs and like this breeding, that's their choice. I've seen plenty of people on this forum buy dogs from breedings I feel have had a lot less thought and care put into them, but everyone is free to buy whichever dogs they like from whatever people they want to support.

As far as the AKC thing, OK she made a mistake and has already admitted to it and explained what really happened. No need to belabor that point. It's less irksome to me than, again, some breeders people often place on a pedestal that advertise dogs as prospects for doing sports and earning titles they themselves have never trained in or earned. It happens all the time. Anyone seriously interested in a puppy would flesh it out more and can talk to the breeder about specifics.


----------



## devinh

Well this escalated quickly. I have had dogs of many different breeds my whole life and after years I have finally gotten a GSD puppy and to me she is AWESOME. Would I ever think about breeding her? Maybe. But I do agree with some on here you have to be careful of the lines you could get great puppies or a disaster. 

I have been on many forums from cars, guns, tattoos, and now dogs. The response the OP got here from most is a typical Internet forum response. To get the slightest bit upset about people's words on a Internet forum is crazy. 

OP hopefully you have done the necessary research and are prepared for a litter of little piranhas if they don't all get homes. Other then that. as GOOD LUCK.


----------



## martemchik

So basically this forum should just be, “GREAT IDEA! YOU SHOULD DEFINETELY DO THAT!” or “YOU’RE SO RIGHT! NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN MORE RIGHT.”

This happens every 6 months or so, a few people get all flipped out, and then a thread is started about how we need to be nicer to people.

Lies…I know the breeders you talk about, and I don’t approve of what they’re doing. If anyone asks me about those breeders, I’ll tell them exactly how I feel about what they do. Actually…I kind of challenged one of them and yes, I saw the defense from others of why that person is allowed to do something that a “newbie” wouldn’t be allowed to do (according to this forum).

The hypocrisy on this website is comical at times…

What I don’t get is all this defense of a person when the truth is, I don’t agree with their decision, and based on what I’ve been told, I don’t need to meet the dog to make a conclusion that TODAY the dog is not breedworthy. And the few pictures of the dog jumping into a lake, biting at a sleeve, I have those too and can post them…does that mean my dog should be bred? Not a single word has been mentioned about a hip score either…and since the dog JUST turned two, I’m assuming that hips haven’t been checked?

I guess what I’d like to know then is, what’s the point of thread like this one? If not for advice…is it just a breeding announcement without showing any pedigrees and a novice breeder telling about how great this breeding will be?


----------



## blackshep

DaniFani said:


> I guess what I'm missing and not understanding is why are you breeding BEFORE the titles/proof? If she has "potential" and is "ready" why are you not waiting to get those titles, to have more than a "hope" and have actual proof that she is what you and others say she is? I just don't get that. If she's as wonderful as expected, those titles should be a breeze. I just don't understand breeding on "potential" instead of "proof."


 This is it. And honestly, if I were in the market for another GSD, I wouldn't even consider looking at a pup where the parents didn't even get some decent titles, IPO1 at minimum.

The thing is, getting your IPO1 takes a lot of hard work. By the time you have achieved that, you know your dog inside out and backwards. You know your dogs strengths, and you (more importantly) know their weaknesses. This is invaluable information to a good breeder when trying to find a good match for their dog. It also means someone besides you, has done some sort of evaluation on your dog. 

This isn't people coming down on your dog. She looks lovely. However, I think breeding her at this point without more titles would be premature. 

OP, you're going to get people's opinions on a public forum. There are a lot of experienced people here giving you good information. You are getting offended because it's not what you want to hear. 

I don't think anyone is saying don't breed your dog ever, they are saying don't breed her yet. Get more titles, this gives you more credibility as a breeder and handler. And if you are going to be a good breeder, you are providing support for your puppy buyers for the life of that dog. If you aren't a good enough handler to get IPO1 on your dog, how are you going to help them if they run into a training or behavioural issue with one of your puppies?

I had some behavioural issues with my pup, and her breeder gave me lots of great information on things I could do to work on it. I really needed her help in the first year or so with my pup as a first time GSD owner.


----------



## Twink90

Again I find myself defending my dog & my decision to people I don't know. Once again I will explain I'm not in it to repopulate the world with unwanted dogs. I'm not in it to retire off money that's pouring in over my puppy mill that I'm running. Both dogs have hips & elbows certified from Germany. Still waiting on her DNA testing for DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY before anything is written in stone. Plus they will both have an std test prior to breeding if everything works out. 
I have tons of pix of my dog as she is stunning & so athletic I love taking her photos. I train daily either on my own or with schutzhund club, dock diving or AKC. Not sure why my dog has your panties in a bunch but pretty sure their are people out there that deserve your hatred but I'm not it.


----------



## blackshep

I said your dog is beautiful, and you say I'm full of hatred. lmao!

You shouldn't be breeding, but not because of your dog...

If you want to do things right, you'll put some titles on her. If you don't want to do things right, you'll go ahead and breed her anyway. I think we all know what you're going to do, and since you don't care to listen to feedback, I'm not sure why you posted here to begin with.

Good luck to you in all your endeavours.


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> So basically this forum should just be, “GREAT IDEA! YOU SHOULD DEFINETELY DO THAT!” or “YOU’RE SO RIGHT! NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN MORE RIGHT.”
> 
> This happens every 6 months or so, a few people get all flipped out, and then a thread is started about how we need to be nicer to people.
> 
> Lies…I know the breeders you talk about, and I don’t approve of what they’re doing. If anyone asks me about those breeders, I’ll tell them exactly how I feel about what they do. Actually…I kind of challenged one of them and yes, I saw the defense from others of why that person is allowed to do something that a “newbie” wouldn’t be allowed to do (according to this forum).
> 
> The hypocrisy on this website is comical at times…
> 
> What I don’t get is all this defense of a person when the truth is, I don’t agree with their decision, and based on what I’ve been told, I don’t need to meet the dog to make a conclusion that TODAY the dog is not breedworthy. And the few pictures of the dog jumping into a lake, biting at a sleeve, I have those too and can post them…does that mean my dog should be bred? Not a single word has been mentioned about a hip score either…and since the dog JUST turned two, I’m assuming that hips haven’t been checked?
> 
> I guess what I’d like to know then is, what’s the point of thread like this one? If not for advice…is it just a breeding announcement without showing any pedigrees and a novice breeder telling about how great this breeding will be?


As long as it's not breaking board rules, I really don't care what people say/post, I just personally don't have time to follow every thread about every breeding I don't personally like or every dog I don't think is good enough and don't understand the level of disdain some people seem to have against others they've never met. I don't post every little thing about all my dogs so I'm sorry to see that people make assumptions about dogs they don't know based solely on what someone explicitly posts on this forum and if certain information is not offered up front, it is assumed that the dog doesn't have said title/training/certification and is therefore not breedworthy. We criticize people for posting about breeding decisions on this forum yet we all like to sit here and play armchair breeder on this forum.... ??

Again I'm not condoning this breeding but if it piqued my interest I'd contact the OP privately to learn more about the dogs. I don't buy dogs based on this forum the same way I don't make my own breeding decisions based on people's opinions. Like I said, I let the money talk. If I don't like a breeding, I don't buy a puppy and move on. The quality of the dogs and breeding will speak for itself.

To me, the biggest issue here is posting the thread in the first place. My advice to the OP (or anyone else) would be.... if the breeding meets your standards and you're confident in your dog(s) and your mentor(s), go ahead. If not, don't bother coming on a forum like this for justification because obviously it's never going to happen. So I would agree with you that threads like this are in most cases completely pointless.

Yes the hypocrisy is comical! It often goes both (several?) ways.


----------



## martemchik

Yeah...there's a reason we don't see our "forum breeders" ever post their breeding plans on here. They know what would happen. There's always someone that can question something about it.


----------



## Liesje

A lot can happen anyway. I don't even own the female, you know the one with the heat cycle and the pregnancy, lol, and of maybe 5 or so breedings that serious people have inquired about using my dog, we have *one* litter on the ground (which I took two puppies from so no, I don't do breeding with females I don't personally like or trust getting a puppy out of). Even the most seemingly straight forward breedings have had random complications like a medical emergency in breeder's family, female's heat cycle is way off and we miss ovulation despite multiple progesterone tests, etc. I just don't see the point in getting all worked up over something that isn't set in stone and may never happen anyway. If it's of dire consequence that these two dogs not be bred, a concerned person can contact the OP or her mentor privately.


----------



## martemchik

The only reason I think a “forum education” is good is that it gives you a perspective outside of your own training group. Let’s be serious, those people that are close to you, either through friendship or a business relationship, aren’t going to be 100% truthful and blunt with you (some will, but are kind of few and far between). Your TD or helper, is making money off you coming, so its not in his best interest to tell you that your dog is lacking. We all get defensive about our dog's weaknesses (just read through this thread), and the OP has already vowed to "prove us all wrong." I wonder how OP would've reacted if a TD or helper told her that her dog is lacking in X,Y,Z and how quickly she would've vowed to "prove them wrong" as well. So, you ask a question like this on the forum, and you get people’s opinions that have been in the world. You get to find out what others feel about what you’re doing, and how people that are either looking to do sport/work or show will look at your breeding.

IMO…if the only people interested in your litter are what would be considered “pet people,” it’s probably not a noteworthy enough litter to be having. If those in the “know” don’t want to touch it with a ten foot pole, it should give you some idea that what you’re doing isn’t 100% kosher or really beneficial to the breed that people are passionate about.


----------



## Twink90

Trust me I looked for a way to delete this after I joined this forum. I only commented in this section called "thinking about becoming a breeder" because I was thinking about breeding my girl. Wow guess I was wrong. Thinking about breeding this fall. So if anyone should be laughing it's me at this point. So if a moderator sees this. & you can delete a thread please do so. There is no way to please everyone not am I willing to try. Not worth my time as I have a show in 2 weeks. & need to get back to my dog which actually matters to me.


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> The only reason I think a “forum education” is good is that it gives you a perspective outside of your own training group. Let’s be serious, those people that are close to you, either through friendship or a business relationship, aren’t going to be 100% truthful and blunt with you (some will, but are kind of few and far between). Your TD or helper, is making money off you coming, so its not in his best interest to tell you that your dog is lacking. We all get defensive about our dog's weaknesses (just read through this thread), and the OP has already vowed to "prove us all wrong."


Well, I will agree to disagree. First, I don't train with people that are just there to "make money off" me. Both TDs I've trained with have been critical to our success and both have offered very fair evaluations of my dog and my handling. The last club I trained with had fair dues and the helper didn't make any money (other than being compensated for travel when doing helper work at national events). Why would I train with people I didn't think could actually help me and expose what I need to know - good or bad - about my dog? Neither of my TDs and probably 99% of the people I've trained with have zero interest in buying a puppy from my dog, but those that I've worked closely with have been very helpful and a few have mentored me as far as breeding/not breeding and all the nitty-gritty.

Second, say a training group has more of a biased opinion about a dog, in a positive way, does that really matter? Say the OP's club has 5 people that want to buy her puppies. Why is that a terrible thing? They actually know the dog and can decide for themselves based on their own criteria the strengths and weaknesses. I've trained longer term with multiple clubs and have also trained 2-3 times and/or trialed at half a dozen other clubs and it's not uncommon to see clubs that have multiple dogs from the same kennels and/or people owning a similar type of dog. I don't see any arbitrary reason why that has to be a bad thing if the club and its members are happy with their dogs and their progress. It's the same with flyball. Around here if you want to buy a flyball dog there are two people you buy the dog from. If I wanted such a dog, those are the people I would consult. I would not feel like I had to buy a dog from elsewhere just because all the people who have their dogs already must be unfairly biased in their favor or because everyone in the clubs around here all get dogs from these people....no, I've seen the dogs and I know why everyone buys from the same people. Why would I buy a dog from California when I have seen these dogs every month and know they are healthy and successful? The same thing happens at Schutzhund or other training clubs. It's not just that proximity is convenient for travel --> $$$ but we all know what we like and we all know it when we see it.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Titles are not the end all be all. There are plenty of dogs 'titled' that are NOT breed worthy. I would never base a purchase simply on the fact a dog has a title.


----------



## Twink90

I am so fortunate to train with an amazing schutzhund trainer. Since my dog earned her BH I don't pay much for training now as that's how she works. She is looking for people who are committed to bettering their dog. Our helpers get nothing again they are their cuz they love working the dogs. We take all breeds & don't judge people as long as they are willing to learn with their dog. My AKC mentor shows her rotties in both. Her male has been shown. & passed his ipo3 so many times she filled her book. She is a perfectionist & strives for a perfect score. Guess I'm extremely lucky that in real life I'm where I need to be. I just hope I never turn into the judgemental negative people I've found on here that hide behind a keyboard. 
To the many of you sending me messages of support, Thank you all so much. I will post when we earn our next titles. & post pictures of our success as we grow.


----------



## wolfy dog

I don't go by titles or pedigrees. If I love the breeder's dogs: looks, body structure, movement and temperament and hear good feedback from people who have his/her pups, I get pup from him/her. I will always stay local so I can see what I will get myself into.
But I am not breeding my dogs, so I can afford to do it this way.


----------



## martemchik

Lol...who's hiding behind a keyboard?

Are you challenging people now? That's always the best way to make friends.

You're not the first or the last person to claim you're working with the greatest of people and drop what they've accomplished. In theory...you're the one hiding behind a keyboard because you're not actually naming anyone (I don't suggest you do). The only way you can get respect by "association" is to name drop someone that people know and respect. Not by saying, "I work with people that have gotten IPO3s." That's the most ambiguous statement I've ever seen. Do you know how many people get IPO3s every year? It's not that rare.

At the end of the day, your resume is what it is, and no one is going to be impressed by it.


----------



## Steve Strom

Twink90 said:


> I am so fortunate to train with an amazing schutzhund trainer. Since my dog earned her BH I don't pay much for training now as that's how she works. She is looking for people who are committed to bettering their dog. Our helpers get nothing again they are their cuz they love working the dogs. We take all breeds & don't judge people as long as they are willing to learn with their dog. My AKC mentor shows her rotties in both. Her male has been shown. & passed his ipo3 so many times she filled her book. She is a perfectionist & strives for a perfect score. Guess I'm extremely lucky that in real life I'm where I need to be. I just hope I never turn into the judgemental negative people I've found on here that hide behind a keyboard.
> To the many of you sending me messages of support, Thank you all so much. I will post when we earn our next titles. & post pictures of our success as we grow.


 Hey Twink, who's the lady with the Rotts? I'm just curious. I used to have Rotts so I still like to check out good ones.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Lol...who's hiding behind a keyboard?
> 
> Are you challenging people now? That's always the best way to make friends.
> 
> You're not the first or the last person to claim you're working with the greatest of people and drop what they've accomplished. In theory...you're the one hiding behind a keyboard because you're not actually naming anyone (I don't suggest you do). The only way you can get respect by "association" is to name drop someone that people know and respect. Not by saying, "I work with people that have gotten IPO3s." That's the most ambiguous statement I've ever seen. Do you know how many people get IPO3s every year? It's not that rare.
> 
> At the end of the day, your resume is what it is, and no one is going to be impressed by it.


If that's the case, what is your resume Martemchik.

I like you and some of your posts but lately on numerous threads you just seem hostile.

You also speak with great authority for someone just getting started.
You have challenged people in other threads who have more time working with GSDs than you have been alive.

Maybe time to take a break.


----------



## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> If that's the case, what is your resume Martemchik.
> 
> I like you and some of your posts but lately on numerous threads you just seem hostile.
> 
> You also speak with great authority for someone just getting started.
> You have challenged people in other threads who have more time working with GSDs than you have been alive.
> 
> Maybe time to take a break.


I'm not posting about breeding my dog now am I?

And the people I challenge, have worked dogs for a long time, but for the last decade are clearly YouTube researchers.


----------



## LaRen616

Jack's Dad said:


> If that's the case, what is your resume Martemchik.
> 
> *I like you and some of your posts but lately on numerous threads you just seem hostile.*
> 
> You also speak with great authority for someone just getting started.
> You have challenged people in other threads who have more time working with GSDs than you have been alive.
> 
> Maybe time to take a break.


:thumbup:

I agree with this.


----------



## martemchik

Here’s the thing…why has it become bad to all the sudden stand up for what you believe in? Stand up for the fact that although this is just one breeding, there are hundreds just like this happening all over?

Do you guys really think that if we were nice to OP, told her how great of an idea this breeding is, one day, it would make a difference and all the sudden she’d be breeding HOT IPO3 bitches? Nope…not going to happen.

I work with a group of people that if you breed a female that’s not at minimum IPO1, they start to shun you. You can judge them all you want for it, but at the end of the day, you’re admitting that for whatever reason you came up with, you’re not willing to put in the work to get the title and are just going to do what you want.

Everyone loves to scream and moan about how the AKC or the GSDCA doesn’t do enough to protect the breed and consumers, they love to talk about how much better the SV system is…and yet, when it comes time to stand up and actually call someone out for the fact that they’re not doing what we all love in theory…no one does. And those that do get reprimanded for it?

I know…theoretically we all have our wonderful ideas on how to control breeding and we love to discuss “minimum requirements.” Yet when someone actually does ask, and it has to do with a particular dog, everyone runs and hides.


----------



## Lilie

martemchik said:


> I'm not posting about breeding my dog now am I?
> 
> And the people I challenge, have worked dogs for a long time, but for the last decade are clearly YouTube researchers.


Martemchik - this was a good informative thread and you've managed to turn into a thread all about you. 

Perhaps it would be more helpful just to start a thread on your own. Title it "This Thread Is All About Me, Martemchik."


----------



## martemchik

Jack's dad...no offense...but look at some of the threads you've started, and the idea's you've put forth.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/rescue-foster-adoption-information-general/310354-so-where-solutions.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/192564-why-not-gsd-nerves-1-breeding.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/172311-what-backyard-breeder-byb.html

If you're going to question all of these things? Then why not actually call someone out when you see it/read about it happening in real life?


----------



## carmspack

twink90 -- don't be turned off from the forum.

Your approach is good and caring . 
Take the time before the breeding to get an indepth evaluation to the virtues of your dog's lineage and to the areas where you might want to compensate for a better next generation.
Choose your male carefully. .

There are some people here more familiar with your lines that I am sure would give you information and advice. I am thinking of Robin of Huerta Hof who is doing breedings which marry the working or the DDR lines with west German conformation.
Kirschental does this , and yet people don't go all foamy at the mouth over this, or proclaim they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole . 
Just do your best --- read the health and socialization threads , get mentored , understand your genetics , understand issues within the breed .

You have to have a long range goal. Hang around .


----------



## bill

Lol Lilie

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill

Nice post" Carmen!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> twink90 -- don't be turned off from the forum.
> 
> Your approach is good and caring .
> Take the time before the breeding to get an indepth evaluation to the virtues of your dog's lineage and to the areas where you might want to compensate for a better next generation.
> Choose your male carefully. .
> 
> There are some people here more familiar with your lines that I am sure would give you information and advice. I am thinking of Robin of Huerta Hof who is doing breedings which marry the working or the DDR lines with west German conformation.
> Kirschental does this , and yet people don't go all foamy at the mouth over this, or proclaim they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole .
> Just do your best --- read the health and socialization threads , get mentored , understand your genetics , understand issues within the breed .
> 
> You have to have a long range goal. Hang around .


Carmen...epic moment. We agree!!!

This is what I've been trying to get across. You title, you show, to get a more in depth knowledge of your dog, and also other dogs. Two years of training at the same club is no where near enough time to learn everything you need to know about your dog and also how your dog fits into the big picture of the breed. Is it really the best example? Or are there dozens more that would probably accomplish your goal better?

The fact is...OP is very emotionally attached to her dog. It's understandable, we all get that way. But emotion doesn't allow you to make a good, unbiased, objective decision. Everything that OP has mentioned about her dog is skin deep. Very on the surface. And the titles...trust me, very little was learned about the dog while earning those titles...especially when it comes to our breed standard.


----------



## Liesje

"Trust" you? Speak for yourself. My opinion of my dog changed very very little (at least with respect to the things I consider when thinking about breeding) after earning his BH. How many BHs have you done? It's like cakewalk right? Save for physical maturity, I knew what I was dealing with by that time. But I won't tell people their dogs are mediocre or they can't breed because they haven't earned all the titles we have...


----------



## bill

You can learn a lot training your dog " if you don't" you probably never will! Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik

Liesje said:


> "Trust" you? Speak for yourself. My opinion of my dog changed very very little (at least with respect to the things I consider when thinking about breeding) after earning his BH. How many BHs have you done? It's like cakewalk right? Save for physical maturity, I knew what I was dealing with by that time. But I won't tell people their dogs are mediocre or they can't breed because they haven't earned all the titles we have...


The female in question has a Beginner Novice AKC obedience title and a CGC.

I'm a fan of people trying to disprove me, or make me look stupid, but lets use the facts at hand please...I love these discussions, but I don't like it when we start throwing in more made up factors into the mix.


----------



## carmspack

sorry it has nothing to do with title or showing - although those are nice and get you rubbing elbows with the crowd and allow comparisons. You have to know the genetics , which is what I meant by "evaluation to the virtues of your dog's lineage". Titles are the result of human effort , and can't be passed on. Those do not a PRODUCER make . Those titles don't give one clue as to how the dog conducts itself in normal life , nor what effort or manipulation was required . 
I believe the OP is out there working with her dog , pitting it against some challenges .

no epic moment


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> The female in question has a Beginner Novice AKC obedience title and a CGC.
> 
> I'm a fan of people trying to disprove me, or make me look stupid, but lets use the facts at hand please...I love these discussions, but I don't like it when we start throwing in more made up factors into the mix.


If you are keeping track, she has a BH, is SG rated at the moment, and apparently a-stamped (probably recently since I don't see her in the SW database but we'll take the OP's word for it since she posted a picture of the a-stamp).


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

Jack's Dad said:


> If that's the case, what is your resume Martemchik.
> 
> I like you and some of your posts but lately on numerous threads you just seem hostile.
> 
> You also speak with great authority for someone just getting started.
> You have challenged people in other threads who have more time working with GSDs than you have been alive.
> 
> Maybe time to take a break.


 
Exactly!

Martemchik, Opinions are one thing but the hostile, greater than thou, condescending tones are another. People are much more willing to at least take advice into consideratioin if it's offered without the hostility. Confirmation titles/points/etc are very confusing for newbies. It ususlly takes a few shows and someone explaining each class and who/how the points are awarded before it is easily understood.

Your quote: 'emotion doesn't allow you to make a good, unbiased, objective decision. ' Sounds much more like you then the OP.


----------



## carmspack

quoting the OP "My girl Trinty turned 2 today! We have been training in schutzhund & AKC since she was 6 months old. Show record
5 months took VP1 at regional conformation
16 mo got her BH & SG conformation at regionals"

under AKC she got Winners Reserve 
and "AKC 10 mo Reserve Champion conformation 
13 mo earned her BN title
14 mo got CGC title
Has 2 legs in rally novice
1 leg in obedience novice


this shows interest and involvement and recognition for some qualities the dog has . What the OP has to do is make a good decision on a male.


----------



## martemchik

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Martemchik, Opinions are one thing but the hostile, greater than thou, condescending tones are another. People are much more willing to at least take advice into consideratioin if it's offered without the hostility. Confirmation titles/points/etc are very confusing for newbies. It ususlly takes a few shows and someone explaining each class and who/how the points are awarded before it is easily understood.
> 
> Your quote: 'emotion doesn't allow you to make a good, unbiased, objective decision. ' Sounds much more like you then the OP.


Point out the hostility please.

My quote? I'm not making any decisions. So please let me know how that sounds like me...


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

If you aren't aware of it, I'm the person to help you.

If you agree with Carmen's earlier post (said you were saying the same thing), go back and look at the difference. Carmen's post gave positive advice. Your post made fun of the OP because she called a reserve ribbon a title (btw while getting reserve is 2nd place with no points IT IS SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF...she placed above every other dog), just one example. I'm not going back through the thread to bring every point up. I will say the reason I posted was because the negativity was disgusting. You are very much entitled to your opinion, it's the shoving it down someone's throat that has a differing opinion that is the turn off.


----------



## selzer

Nice posts Carmen. I second getting in touch with Robin Huerta. She knows her stuff. And may be able to help you evaluate the pedigrees. And even if the people you are working with, have done that with you, a fresh set of eyes on the pedigree, especially from someone who does not own, or did not breed the dog or breed to the dog, can be invaluable. 

People who sell dogs have to be salesmen. Salesmen sell. How they sell is to point out the good features, and generally they gloss over any that aren't as good. Breeders have this in varying degrees. Some are flat out unethical when it comes to failing to disclose issues with the dog or the dog's progeny. But others, are afflicted with kennel blindness. 

No dog is perfect. What you want to do is to get a really open view of your dog's strengths, and more importantly, her weaknesses, so that you can match her with a male that is correct in those areas, in hopes of producing puppies that are no worse than your bitch in those areas, and hopefully better.

Knowing what the dogs behind your dog produce, and understanding line breeding, and back massing can help you improve in the next generation, and can help you, avoid some of the pit falls.


----------



## martemchik

GSDAlphaMom said:


> If you aren't aware of it, I'm the person to help you.
> 
> If you agree with Carmen's earlier post (said you were saying the same thing), go back and look at the difference. Carmen's post gave positive advice. Your post made fun of the OP because she called a reserve ribbon a title (btw while getting reserve is 2nd place with no points IT IS SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF...she placed above every other dog), just one example. I'm not going back through the thread to bring every point up. I will say the reason I posted was because the negativity was disgusting. You are very much entitled to your opinion, it's the shoving it down someone's throat that has a differing opinion that is the turn off.


That wasn't me.

I don't do AKC shows, have no idea what they call them.

I actually told her that the titles she does have are something that she should be proud of.

"I mean...you should definitely be proud of what you've accomplished. I'm on my first dog and I was very excited about my CD, BN, CGC, RE, ect. But do those titles really equate to an IPO3?"

When I read that she had a conformation title in AKC I was actually really surprised and wanted to see the dog more...as its extremely difficult to get a point in AKC when you have a German dog. It would be amazing if more people from the "other lines" were able to be successful in a variety of venues. It would've pointed that judges are changing the way they think about things.

Thank you for shoving your opinion of not my posts down my throat.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom

martemchik said:


> That wasn't me.
> 
> I don't do AKC shows, have no idea what they call them.
> 
> I actually told her that the titles she does have are something that she should be proud of.
> 
> "I mean...you should definitely be proud of what you've accomplished. I'm on my first dog and I was very excited about my CD, BN, CGC, RE, ect. But do those titles really equate to an IPO3?"
> 
> Thank you for shoving your opinion of not my posts down my throat.


 
You asked. I apologize for getting the reserve title post confused with you. That however, was the least of the hostile posts which were from you.


----------



## bill

Some of the best dogs have never been to a show" does that mean they can't be breed? I think yes they can if they have something to contribute to the breed" such as temperament" structure" all around good dog! I bet if a service dog or any dog with the right stuff to better the breed would be breed in a minute!
Somewhere on a farm " herding" guarding" their are probably some great dogs that will never see a show! J.m.o. Bill

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik

I never said don’t breed…I just said I don’t see why THIS particular bitch needs to be bred this fall, to that specific or very generic dog.

Just look at the information given…

Lowish level titles.
“Bloodlines are good” (No pedigrees provided)
“Both dogs are stunning” (Every GSD is beautiful)
“Even temperament” (Don’t even know what that means)

The person making these comments then went on to dismiss the AKC conformation ring by stating that “she doesn’t have any points because her dog doesn’t walk on her hocks.”

The pups will be “perfect for a show or pet home.” According to what? Kind of interesting that the OP is in MO and yet no word of how her dog did at the SV nationals last weekend, I would imagine that show would’ve been quite the accomplishment for a breeder just starting out…so…why would these pups fit into a show home?

The thing I'm looking at is...if a potential puppy buyer came onto this forum, and asked a question about this type of breeding...what kind of responses would they get? I'm sure we all know what would be said.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Jack's dad...no offense...but look at some of the threads you've started, and the idea's you've put forth.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/rescue-foster-adoption-information-general/310354-so-where-solutions.html
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/192564-why-not-gsd-nerves-1-breeding.html
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/172311-what-backyard-breeder-byb.html
> 
> If you're going to question all of these things? Then why not actually call someone out when you see it/read about it happening in real life?


Actually these threads were IMO a good way to generate discussion on these topics.
I personally have my own views on breeding but I don't think it's appropriate for me to judge other individuals by what I may like.

You suggested that it's a just go along and tell people everything is wonderful or tell them the truth. Whose "truth"?

Those positions are extreme, there is no gospel truth in dog breeding. 

Most topics on here wind up in extremes, which is unfortunate because there is a lot of room for civil discussion and education away from the extremes.


----------



## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> Actually these threads were IMO a good way to generate discussion on these topics.
> 
> Most topics on here wind up in extremes, which is unfortunate because there is a lot of room for civil discussion and education away from the extremes.


Yeah you're right.

But I don't see this discussion as extreme currently. I'm using the facts at hand, applying our most favorite of flowcharts, and the information you generally gather from those wonderful threads about "theoretical breeding."

I think its weird that we would probably guide a "potential buyer" away from OP...but yet it's supposed to be acceptable to give advice to them on how to breed and whelp a litter of puppies.


----------



## sehrgutcsg

Jack's Dad said:


> If that's the case, what is your resume Martemchik.
> 
> I like you and some of your posts but lately on numerous threads you just seem hostile.
> 
> You also speak with great authority for someone just getting started.
> You have challenged people in other threads who have more time working with GSDs than you have been alive.
> 
> Maybe time to take a break.


+ 1 on that.. Mr Hamburger !


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Yeah you're right.
> 
> But I don't see this discussion as extreme currently. I'm using the facts at hand, applying our most favorite of flowcharts, and the information you generally gather from those wonderful threads about "theoretical breeding."



I really dislike that flowchart. IMO it's out of touch with the real world.









Also agree with Bill. You could probably get a great GSD from some farmer that has been breeding and working them for years without titles.


----------



## martemchik

Lol...didn't sense my sarcasm about our favorite flow chart?


----------



## carmspack

I don't agree with martemchik .
who is scornful for the OP's lack of titles - , or low levels . 

Pedigrees were provided albeit by another member 

SG Darkwing Von Twinks Trinity
Wallaby Feetback = http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bree...mother=2048339

give the person a break . I can imagine this to be a young person , with some ambitions and is at the very beginning of this endeavour. She needs guidance and mentoring from experienced people with a track record of achieving that which she wants to accomplish herself.

It isn't easy to go into a ring which traditionally choses something different as a concept of ideal in conformation. I think her hock-walking comment was an attempt in saying that her dog is atypical for what traditionally is appreciated and rewarded in the AKC conformation ring. The same would apply if a working line entered the SV conformation - especially a sable ! The dog would be atypical .

there is so much to consider in a breeding animal.

I hope that Robin does come into the discussion.


----------



## martemchik

Carmen...you're usually first person in line to talk about my lack of experience and how I need to stay around and learn more...and yet in this case, who cares right? They're giving it a grade a effort? Not surprising.

She's not young. She posted how she's been waiting for this for 42 years.


----------



## carmspack

42 is YOUNG , if you are older -- .
I don't recall saying that you need to stay around and learn because learning takes more than that . You criticize my experience all the time as if it were a shameful thing. Who would want experience ?

end of this banter , which is useless antagonism

hope the OP has not left .


----------



## Sunflowers

martemchik said:


> She's not young. She posted how she's been waiting for this for 42 years.


Ouch.


----------

