# generic question about personal space and biting



## selzer

Because of the kid being bitten in the face thread, I am wondering about a topic that was a thread a while back about personal space. 

I know that Babs does not like dogs coming right up into her face, she will snap at them -- she has done this twice with strange dogs, and then with the puppy (1 year old Karma) on Sunday. She never did connect and the two snaps at the puppy were really wimpy, not like the snap at the over-friendly Doberman a few years ago. I think she was just telling the offensive, forward dog, that they should get out of her space. With me, or the little girls, there is none of that going on. I invite her up into my space all the time, and I can hug her, put my face right into hers. No problem. And the vet can too. 

I am wondering, if the dog sees a child that they live with as lower in the pack order than she is, might they choose to correct a child the way a dog corrects another dog? Or, if people respond to a dog's increasing displays of discomfort/aggression by correcting the child and making what the dog wants to happen, happen, instead of correcting the dog, will that encourage the dog in its method of limiting that sort of behavior? 

My dogs LIKE to be in my face or for me to get into their face. Jenna is a face licker. Puppies, breathe on them and they will lick your face -- that's normal. Ninja jumps up on the dog house every day to get her hugs, and to lick my face. I lean back in my office chair and scooch up to Babs' easy chair, and she climbs on top of me and licks my face. I have never been afraid of being right in my dog's faces, and since I have had to give eye ointment, and clean ears, and look at teeth, I need for them to not bar me from their personal space. 

And, while it is not normal, if I am in the vet's office, I expect my dogs to check out my demeaner and if I am not freaking out, then they should tolerate whatever the vet needs to do. So far, not a problem. 

But I hear a lot of people saying that they do not allow people in their dog's faces. And I guess most people aren't trying to get right into my dog's face. I had one of my puppy buyers, reach over a fence and give one my dog's a kiss once, and I told her that she really shouldn't do that to a dog she doesn't know. But the dog was more startled and just allowed it. 

Same with Cujo when the little kid ran up while I was paying the bill at the counter. The kid ran up behind and full body hugged him. He was too startled by it, to actually react, and it's not so much that he was a good dog, but his reaction was acceptable, and we dodged a bullet so to speak.

Another dog that is not accustomed to that from a stranger might have reacted differently I am hearing. So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?

I mean, if we dig around in a dog's food dish, and take shtuff away from the dog, and mess with it and give it back, we can create food aggressive issues where there might not have been any. Can we also create problems by pushing a dog to accept everything from everybody as a part of socialization, and if the dog doesn't seem to like it, flood the dog. When if we had left well enough alone, the one or two incidents that might happen when someone the dog does not trust gets into the dog's face, the dog will be startled/surprised, but not actually aggress to the point of a bite. 

I did have a puppy that I placed, that I would pick up (he was a cute booger), and bring him up to my face and he would bite my nose. Every time. You would think I would learn. He was 13 weeks old. I figured he just saw my face as a huge toy, and the nose was sticking out, and if he was lucky, he could make the whole thing make noise. I was not sorry to see that one go. I told the people, "he bites." 

I guess I am just fascinated with this topic. Someone suggested I start a generic dog bites kid thread. I think I would rather discuss dogs' attitude toward their face area, or other spots like paws or ears if they are problematic for some dogs.


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## selzer

Gosh, I don't know, a couple of questions about whether socializing dogs that have a problem with personal space might make them more dangerous, and whether our responses to a dog that has personal space issues might increase the problem. 

I suppose, I am just interested in a general discussion about personal space issues and aggression in dogs, particularly the in your face and hugging stuff.


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## Sunflowers

selzer said:


> . So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?


You do your best to get your dog used to handling. I think it works best when you get him as a pup. 

But if the dog doesn't like whatever is being done to him, I do believe that one day the bite will ensue, meaning, "What part of I don't like that don't you understand? Here, let me escalate and get my point across more clearly..."

It really depends on the temperament of the dog.


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> I mean, if we dig around in a dog's food dish, and take shtuff away from the dog, and mess with it and give it back, we can create food aggressive issues where there might not have been any. Can we also create problems by pushing a dog to accept everything from everybody as a part of socialization, and if the dog doesn't seem to like it, flood the dog. When if we had left well enough alone, the one or two incidents that might happen when someone the dog does not trust gets into the dog's face, the dog will be startled/surprised, but not actually aggress to the point of a bite.


Everyone's training methods are different and I know most here are horrified at the way I train. But I do get down on the floor with the pup. Right in his face and his in mine. I also pick him up and cuddle him to my face. I touch his paws, his ears, his tail and look in his mouth everyday! But then again I also put my hands in his food bowl pick up food and hand feed. My adult dogs (the one's I've raised) will let me take anything away from them and they will tolerate a lot of in your face from people. That being said I also think a lot of it is genetic. Buddy is bomb proof. He is absolutely rock solid and has proven it time and time again. Ivan is skittish. I got him from the shelter, he is a mix of lab and god knows what. I don't know what happened before I got him but I think if a stranger got in his face the way I do, they might get bitten so I don't let strangers get in his face.


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## Baillif

A lot of it is temperament. A lot can be done to make a puppy tolerant of THB (typical human bull****) but once you have an older dog especially after the 2 year mark it usually becomes way harder to deal with and generally becomes a management thing. 

We have a dog in board and train atm who is 7 and has bitten for people getting in his face or getting huggy and touchy with him. I haven't seen any issues from him yet because i dont do it so we get on just fine. Now at some point after i build some trust with him ill try to get him to become more tolerant of it but he will probably never be that cuddly type of dog. Its just a part of his personality now. To a certain extent i think you just have to respect that.


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## Gretchen

Since my husband does not like a lot of socialization when he's home (he gets a ton at work), it was difficult to social Molly to other people. She definitely loves that our immediate family and cats are in her face, and she licks back, but I'd never want to test her on another person. While we are at the vet, and the vet techs are listening to her heart at her level she will try to lick their face, she knows they like her. We also have a business neighbor that clearly loves all dogs and she will let him get in her face.

My neighbor has a very sweet, submissive female pitbull. This is her first dog. Since hers is so sweet, maybe she thought all were sweet and while on a walk by herself, she saw another pitbull and bent down to the dog's level to pet and say hello, I guess she was too close and the stranger pitbull bit her in the face, requiring and ER visit and plastic surgery 6 months later on her upper lip. Ever since her story I am apprehensive about getting too close to another dog's face, even if the owner says its very nice.


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## selzer

I guess I have enough dogs that I do not need to get doggy kisses from other people's dogs. I think a lot of it comes down to when the dog comes up to you, licks your hand, comes over and checks your face out -- like at the vet, usually the techs are not right in the dog's face, but the dog will move their head and sniff and lick at them. 

But yeah, listening to other people's horror stories makes you think, what if? I mean, we think we know our dogs. But maybe that pit owner thought she knew her dog too. Maybe she was flabbergasted that her dog did that.


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## ladyb

Here's our 16 month old Lady: she regularly gets picked up so that she stands on her back heels and held, she has her bones and favorite treats taken away mid-chew, she has 5 different people on a daily basis-4 of which are teens, coming and going, in her face, rubbing her paws and ears and tail(which she does NOT like), and one, 19 years old, has always straddled her and pretended like she was horse....not one time have we ever been scared or worried...but I have told them many, many times, that they have to protect HER...that if she is allowed to get in trouble and hurts someone, everything changes. When we go out, I often move away from people because she is so excited and I am afraid she will accidentally hurt someone. If someone approaches her I ask them to wait for a minute and the humans converse about how excited she is--so they are warned about how happy she will be to see them...I ultimately feel it's my job to protect her?


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## gsdsar

This is good topic. And a confusing one. I know my opinions differ quite a bit, even as I was thinking about my reply. 

I expect my dogs to allow me to do anything I want to them. If I open their mouth to look inside, they better allow it. Same with hugging, restraining, picking up feet, lifting tail. If I had a family living with me, the same would go for everyone that lives in my house. It's non negotiable. That does not mean I spend my time testing and training these behaviors. I just do them and move on. 

If I had not done my job and for some reason my dog did not perceive other family members as having that respect as well, then I have failed. 

Now for John Q. Public. This is where I start getting wishy washy. I, personally would not knowingly take a dog to a public place without being sure of their response. But, to be sure if their response, you have to take them. So I generally pick smaller events, or go in knowing that I may have to leave if it proves overwhelming to my dog. 

For example. I KNOW my female Lena can be very snarky with other dogs. So she does not get brought to large events with lots of dogs. She can handle fewer dogs in a quiet setting, so she gets to go the lake and winery tours with a few friends and their dogs. 

Now my puppy Nix, he is only 13 months. We did a few events this year, but he is getting older, less puppyish. So this year I will have to expose him carefully so I can judge his reaction. If I deem him not safe, he won't get to continue going or get to go to bigger events. The first few events this spring, I will be be overly diligent and watching his body language. And I have zero problem telling people not to touch him. If and when I deem him trustworthy, then I will take him to events known to have children. While I expect parents to watch their children, kids are kids and many parents assume if the dog is out at big public event then they are safe. Whether this is right or not. It is my job to make sure I don't contribute to a problem. So yes, I expect, if I am relaxed, that my dog allow a stranger to pet them, 
Or a child to hug them. That said, I am always diligent, and if I see a kid coming over, I greet them and turn my dogs back to them, so they don't charge the dogs face. Then, once I know the dog is calm I allow kisses. 

I never force my dog. If they seem uncomfortable, I remove them from the stimulus. We go on a walk, I put them in the car, we hide and smoke a cigarette(well I smoke) 

Not every dog can be like that, it is up to the owner to read and understand their dog. And not force them into a situation that is dangerous. It does not mean the dog is a bad dog. 

I don't expect every dog to like strangers in their face. It's very rude. I do expect owners to KNOW this about their dog and mitigate the situation so that the dog does not bite anyone. 

If you know your dog does not like strangers in their close proximity, don't take them to events with an uncontrollable element. 

But at home, inside the family, that same dog better accept anything. 














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## misslesleedavis1

I always stick my hands in my dogs food bowls, I have done a really good job at making sure i can take anything away from them (not like i go around yanking things away) but if i ever needed to take something they were not supposed to have i can with no problems. I have also micro managed shilohs food problem (she was food aggressive with other dogs bad!) i put her in a crate for the first long while then i moved dexters food bowl closer and closer to the outside of the crate, and now well, she eats out of the crate beside Dexter no issues and she even shares the plate lickings with them. I also fixed the weird water thing she had going on by adding a third water bowl to the basement who knew one more water bowl was the trick. 
Honestly though, i cant really say they would not take a chunk out of a random person for sticking their hands in their food, or removing something from their mouth. I also cant say i would trust either of the boys to tolerate a running screaming toddler, maybe shiloh because as i have said before she just adores and thinks people are king.
I also feel that i should beable to give my dog a hug or kiss anytime i want, and i do! sorry if i am off topic here im tired tonight.


We dont have running screaming toddlers all of the kids are over 10 and they are boys so most of the time they are not even interested in the dogs, infact we have to pay them to walk the dogs, the dogs were a novelty that wore off a long time ago and was replaced by call of duty black ops.


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## shepherdmom

gsdsar said:


> But at home, inside the family, that same dog better accept anything.


This :thumbup:











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## Sunflowers

ladyb said:


> she has her bones and favorite treats taken away mid-chew,


This, honestly, I do not understand. 

You are supposed to be looked up to and trusted by your dog. 

How is this getting you respect?


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## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> This, honestly, I do not understand.
> 
> You are supposed to be looked up to and trusted by your dog.
> 
> How is this getting you respect?


You are putting human emotions on a dog. They don't look up to or trust us not in the sense that humans trust one another. 

You get respect from your dog by being the boss. Consistency IMO is the key.


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> This, honestly, I do not understand.
> 
> You are supposed to be looked up to and trusted by your dog.
> 
> How is this getting you respect?


The dog learns that its okay to have something taken away and they don't bark or growl because of it. I have 5 dogs and I can at any time take things away from them with no problem. I can tell them to drop it, I can put my hands in their mouth, I can take the food bowl away, I can take bones from them, etc. They are like that amongst each other to. That is mandatory in my house. I do have kids that come and go and I am 100% sure that my dogs will never go after or bite any of them. They have learned early on that its not the right way to behave. So yes it is out of respect that mine don't go after anyone that is within my household. I don't even think they would go after a stranger that took their bone away, none of mine are like that at all. They would either walk away or give the sad eyes. I have no fear of my dogs and neither does my family.


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## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> You are putting human emotions on a dog. They don't look up to or trust us not in the sense that humans trust one another.
> 
> You get respect from your dog by being the boss. Consistency IMO is the key.


I totally disagree. You risk creating dog aggression by teaching your dog you are not trustworthy.

I have never taken or messed with my dogs while eating and have never had a dog with food aggression. I truly don't understand the "hands in dog bowl" concept.


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## ladyb

Sunflowers said:


> This, honestly, I do not understand.
> 
> 
> 
> You are supposed to be looked up to and trusted by your dog.
> 
> 
> 
> How is this getting you respect?



To be perfectly honest, I played with her food and bones and toys after seeing numerous posts about food aggressive dogs, and really was simply trying to be a really good human for this dog...no one in this house, especially the single mom of 4 kids, has time to work a full time job and run around grabbing food and bones from the joy of the house on a regular basis. Guess I was seeing what I was dealing with. And this is why I so rarely post! Thank you Castlemaid for being such a diligent admin, and David Winners for all of your advice and thoughtful posts, I am secretly hoping you will still come and train this dog for me! 
Such a shame this forum has become so snarky....signing off?


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## Sunflowers

So if I ask why someone is doing this and what is gained by doing this, I am snarky?
I don't know how else to phrase things so that people don't get offended. 
For heaven's sake-- it is like walking on eggshells constantly over here. 

Food is a primal thing. 

It isn't only a human eating her chocolate cake and having her boss come take it away who would be ticked. 

You are taking away high value treats from an animal. In the animal world, the higher members of the pack will never take away a choice morsel once they have let the lower member have it. It just isn't done. 

And yes, you do gain respect and trust from dogs. That is why they will deem to listen to you and not the neighbor.
I wonder if this started with the Cesar shows, this taking food away and giving it back. 

As a child, I was always taught to leave the dog alone when it is eating. When did this trend of taking food and messing with an eating dog become the thing to do?


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## misslesleedavis1

@sunflowers,

When i was growing up my mom always stuck her hands in tips bowl when he was a pup. It was something i did not bother to question but when i grew up and got my first puppy i did it, and that little bugger at 8.5 weeks growled at me and went ape crap bananas, we could not have this behavior it was just not cool. Dexter got over it in a few days. I suppose although there are so many different opinions about things that some may say, by sticking your hands in food or taking a toy away you may be preventing bad bahaviors in the future, they learn that even though there is a hand in the bowl they can continue eating and the world is not going to stop and they dont have to guard it, or they will get that toy back no problem.

Although personally if someone tried to take my choco cake i would stab them with my fork.


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## Sunflowers

I have no problem with sticking hands in. 
I do it too, but I_ add_ something. I do not take away. The dog quickly learns that if I am in his food bowl, good things will show up in it. 
It only makes sense to me. 

I really do not get the taking thing.


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## misslesleedavis1

well by taking i dont think anyone means just yanking it out of the dogs mouth, i dont just yank whatever out of anyones mouth but i will give you an example of todays funtimes at my house,
I walked into the florida room and there is my under exercised (i have been busy and he has not seen his regular 5 k runs in 2 days, just leash walks) border collie with the "oh snap you caught me face" with my fiances sons 60.00 snowboarding glasses hanging out of his mouth, i walked over and grabbed the poor plastic arm and said "give me that" and i was not waiting for him to let it go, i just took them. He let them go and proceeded to sulk for the day.


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## misslesleedavis1

Sunflowers said:


> I have no problem with sticking hands in.
> I do it too, but I_ add_ something. I do not take away. The dog quickly learns that if I am in his food bowl, good things will show up in it.
> It only makes sense to me.
> 
> I really do not get the taking thing.


I add stuff with tyson too, he eats like a pig and its doesnt take long before im throwing chunks of meat back in his bowl,


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## selzer

Sunflowers said:


> So if I ask why someone is doing this and what is gained by doing this, I am snarky?
> I don't know how else to phrase things so that people don't get offended.
> For heaven's sake-- it is like walking on eggshells constantly over here.
> 
> Food is a primal thing.
> 
> It isn't only a human eating her chocolate cake and having her boss come take it away who would be ticked.
> 
> You are taking away high value treats from an animal. In the animal world, the higher members of the pack will never take away a choice morsel once they have let the lower member have it. It just isn't done.
> 
> And yes, you do gain respect and trust from dogs. That is why they will deem to listen to you and not the neighbor.
> I wonder if this started with the Cesar shows, this taking food away and giving it back.
> 
> As a child, I was always taught to leave the dog alone when it is eating. When did this trend of taking food and messing with an eating dog become the thing to do?


I don't know. 

I used to do it. But I have since, stopped. My first GSD was pretty tough, and I did not want to have the same problems with the next one, and I kind of went over-board the other way with her. But it did not cause problems, because she did not have that problem. But that doesn't mean it couldn't cause problems with other dogs. 

At this point, I know I can take anything from any of my dogs at any time. Sometimes, they will get something, that they should not have, and I can go and grab a hold of them and take it out of their mouthes. They seem to know that they were trying to scarf something that wasn't theirs though, and they are fine with it. When people started talking about food aggression, I went out and fed my dogs, and after they were eating in their bowls, I picked the bowl up and moved it about 3 inches and set it back down, just to gage their reaction or lack of reaction. I can honestly say that food aggression isn't a problem that they have. Fine, tested, now I can just leave that be. I do not want to create problems where there were not problems.

Which brings us back to the subject at hand, if we know the dog has an issue with people getting up close and personal, will flooding the dog be more likely to cause the dog to bite, or to become more tolerant of it? 

I think with puppies, yes, you can touch paws, and tail, and ears, and hug them, and kiss them, and get them totally used to you. But what do people who rescue a dog at say 3 years do, to desensitize such a dog, a dog of unknown background, get the dog used to being handled in spots where they would rather be left alone? 

And also, it was mentioned that we say don't get into a dog's face, but people with a rescue dog post pictures of the dog and themselves with the dog right up in their face. And it is so cute, everyone says. Is it a double standard? Should we warn people to get to know the dog before getting up close and personal. Or would that be just being a Negative Nellie?


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## misslesleedavis1

@selzer,

With Dexters issues as a pup aside (that litterally only took us less then a week to stop) i have never had a dog with people food problems,
Shiloh, we did not flood i worked on her slowly and time healed her issues,
I think its important for people to know they are rolling the dice with rescue dogs by doing the cute selfie with fido glued to the side of there face, i would never ever stick my face in the face of a dog i have not totally completely bonded with.


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## Sunflowers

misslesleedavis1 said:


> with my fiances sons 60.00 snowboarding glasses hanging out of his mouth, i walked over and grabbed the poor plastic arm and said "give me that" and i was not waiting for him to let it go, i just took them.


But this isn't food. You had a legitimate reason for taking away an object that the dog had no business chewing, and could have harmed him if he had ingested chunks.

I was specifically questioning the "she has her bones and favorite treats taken away mid-chew" thing. 

How would you interpret this, except the owner yanking the dog's high value treats away?


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## selzer

misslesleedavis1 said:


> well by taking i dont think anyone means just yanking it out of the dogs mouth, i dont just yank whatever out of anyones mouth but i will give you an example of todays funtimes at my house,
> I walked into the florida room and there is my under exercised (i have been busy and he has not seen his regular 5 k runs in 2 days, just leash walks) border collie with the "oh snap you caught me face" with my fiances sons 60.00 snowboarding glasses hanging out of his mouth, i walked over and grabbed the poor plastic arm and said "give me that" and i was not waiting for him to let it go, i just took them. He let them go and proceeded to sulk for the day.


I don't know, the day I got Gretta back, she was a little less than six months old. I released her into the house, and she ran into the study and came away with a Little People. It was a treasure and went running through the house with it. I cought her, and took it away, while the people who had this dog from 8 weeks were kind of amazed. She showed no signs of being worried about it, or aggressive or anything. I couldn't leave the Little People person to get eaten, she might have choked on it. I had to go in and get it, and with no fanfare, I did just that. But it's like I told the people, if I am afraid of a six month old puppy, I'm done. 

By the way, I am out there today, getting licks from everyone and getting my face up and into everybody's space just to see if they really show signs of distress. Some of them LOVE it. The poor attention-starved critters! Even negative attention... But yeah, some of them jump onto dog houses to get their daily hugs and kisses. Some are major kissers and try to wash my entire face. Some are like, yeah, yeah lady, I know, now just let me get over there to the field, I want to go bitch at Karma already!!! 

There's a lot of things I just do though. I do not cut a toenail and give a treat. It would take all month just to cut toenails. I just do it. Lots of the less exciting, less pleasant things, I just do and get it over with, in hopes that by just taking charge and doing a thing, the dog will be less traumatized as it will take less time, and be over with quicker. Taking something out of their mouths is just like that. If they have a bottle of pills or some small object they may joke on, I just take it. If I drop a piece of meat or something that won't hurt a dog, and they snatch it up, I don't fight about it. It's theirs. Not because I can't but more because, I'm not going to eat it now.


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## misslesleedavis1

Sunflowers said:


> But this isn't food. You had a legitimate reason for taking away an object that the dog had no business chewing, and could have harmed him if he had ingested chunks.
> 
> I was specifically questioning the "she has her bones and favorite treats taken away mid-chew" thing.
> 
> How would you interpret this, except the owner yanking the dog's high value treats away?


You got me there! i never take bones, mostly because we never have them but when we do, i dont see a reason to take them, i am confident though that i could.


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## Sunflowers

selzer said:


> if we know the dog has an issue with people getting up close and personal, will flooding the dog be more likely to cause the dog to bite, or to become more tolerant of it?
> 
> I think with puppies, yes, you can touch paws, and tail, and ears, and hug them, and kiss them, and get them totally used to you. But what do people who rescue a dog at say 3 years do, to desensitize such a dog, a dog of unknown background, get the dog used to being handled in spots where they would rather be left alone?
> 
> And also, it was mentioned that we say don't get into a dog's face, but people with a rescue dog post pictures of the dog and themselves with the dog right up in their face. And it is so cute, everyone says. Is it a double standard? Should we warn people to get to know the dog before getting up close and personal. Or would that be just being a Negative Nellie?



Sorry for derailing the thread. 

But I felt that the food thing could very well make the wrong dog snap and cause a bite. 

It again depends on the dog's temperament and how it was raised. 
I would personally take it very slow with a rescue and get to know the dog before getting in its face... and I must admit I would be very cautious even after I got to know that dog. 

Unknown lines, unknown temperament of the dog's parents and grandparents... you never know what you could trigger and when.


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## Sunflowers

misslesleedavis1 said:


> You got me there! i never take bones, mostly because we never have them but when we do, i dont see a reason to take them, i am confident though that i could.


I do! I do take the bones, I have Hans gnaw on a big ol' knuckle bone, and when it gets to a point where he could bite off chunks, I do take it away. 
But I make sure I have a nice meatball or other good thing in my hand to trade him. 

There is a reason I take it, and he gets something really good in exchange. That way I think he is ok with having things taken away, because there is no need to resource guard.


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## RocketDog

Sunflowers said:


> So if I ask why someone is doing this and what is gained by doing this, I am snarky?
> I don't know how else to phrase things so that people don't get offended.
> For heaven's sake-- it is like walking on eggshells constantly over here.


Tell me about it. 


I think it is a mix of temperament and environment/exposure, including the attitude of the owner. How the owner feels and acts gives huge signals to the dog about how to que itself. This is best established with a young dog but older dogs can be taken in a slightly different direction; that gain will be minimal compared to a pup though.

I will say that if I'm dremmeling his nails and he gives a guff that he wants to be done, I ignore or let him know that we are not done and I am going to finish. If he is gnawing a bone, and I feel it's too small now or he's had it long enough or whatever, I simply walk over and tell him he's done and remove. Then I clean up his sheet, and usually give him a scratch or some tidbit. Not always, but sometimes. He is fine.


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## brembo

I move food bowls once or twice to gauge their reaction, once I know how they are with me and food I'm happy. Cable pushes his bowl here and yon while eating, I put a foot in front of it to stop it's travels. He seems pleased by this, he'll look up, give me a tail wag and dive back into his food.

In the face of a dog? I don't understand WHY someone would want to do this. It's asking for a bloody lip when said dog headbutts on accident, and probably a threatening bit of body language. I can do it with mine, but I don't. I have also learned not to hover over dogs, doggie head uppercuts are painful and hovering over a dog IS a dominant display that can wig em out some. Mine seek my face now and again, mainly in play and I allow it, but sure don't encourage it.

selzer-

I very recently rescued a 3-ish y/o male GSD. Cable. He was pretty spooky with his hind quarters. I have noticed some trauma scarring on his passenger-side rear leg and maybe some over-growth from a leg break. Not too sure on the break tho. Anyway, he was very skittish about letting me inspect anything "rear-end" related. Not snippy but much pressure to inspect was greeted with a bolting dog. I simply eased the idea of me having unfettered access to any part of his body. If I just reach out and grab a rear paw, he'll move. I get him in a down and tell him "hey, lemme see that" which is a marker for I'm going to be nosy and poke around and I have access as I need it. I can't fiddle around for long periods as he gets antsy. He will present his butt for me too, my job is to scratch and rub and he's fine with that as long as he is the initiator of the actions. I also "pants" him, I grab two big handfuls of the fuzzy fur on the backs of his legs and yank, pretty hard too, and let go and do my version of a play bow. You'd think a dog with rear-end issues would have a fit, but he knows that it's playtime and will maneuver so that I can pants him again.

I got him this way by just slowly moving back towards his rump while giving him epically good rubs, the kind that makes dogs melt. He soon figured out that when I am touching only good things will happen. He trusts me implicitly, I have never done anything to dissuade that opinion either. It helps that he is a very thoughtful and observant dog. The flip side to this is that his "sister" a one y/o GSD female gets immediate and harsh corrections if she so much as gets near his butt. In bed or a relaxed place she can snuggle and he's okay. If she moves too much she'll get a rumble from him, whereupon she normally moves away, she is smart too.


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## RocketDog

LOL Brembo on the accidental headbut. I just did the dumbest thing: I mentioned 'bone' to Rocket and of course he immediately gave me the LOOK. He has a touch command, and as I was squatting on the floor right next to him, picking up a pillow, and he stuck his nose in my face, I thought for some reason it would be a good idea to have him 'touch' my nose. Since he uses his nose for this command, you can imagine the excited 'touch' my right eye received. (his aim was slightly off due to anticipatory excitement.) :crazy:


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## selzer

LOL, on the doggy upper-cuts. Can someone PLEASE tell Ninja that her head is like a concrete battering ram. Today, she plowed into my bad knee and I was ready to send her into orbit. Luckily for her, I was too busy holding my knee and cursing.


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## misslesleedavis1

ive gotten some serious smashes to the lips before, its like free colligen it pumps that sucker right up.


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## Sunflowers

misslesleedavis1 said:


> ive gotten some serious smashes to the lips before, its like free colligen it pumps that sucker right up.


Yeah, but mine was on one side only, unfortunately. 
I looked like Angelina Jolie on a really bad day....


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## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> I totally disagree. You risk creating dog aggression by teaching your dog you are not trustworthy.
> 
> I have never taken or messed with my dogs while eating and have never had a dog with food aggression. I truly don't understand the "hands in dog bowl" concept.


You do it your way, I will continue to do it mine. 

To answer someone else question this is not a Caesar thing, this is something my grandparents did, my parents did and something I've done with my dogs for close to 30 years. Heck even my breeder recommended it. When you get a puppy (please note PUPPY not adult dog) you stick your hands in the bowl while they are eating. You don't take it away you pick up the food and you let them eat it out of your hand. They learn to be careful of hands in the bowl. When it is empty or when you think they have had enough you pick bowl up and say mine! 

Bones I do take away when they get to be too little or they are starting to break pieces off. I just reach down and grab it and say mine. When puppy is being to aggressive with a ball or toy or anything else I take it away and say mine. They learn. If I say mine they better leave it alone. Its just pure habit but they respect that. I don't have to trade them for it. If I say mine its mine. End of subject. Again this is a PUPPY!


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## selzer

Only, when I say, "MINE" I don't want my dog to touch it ever again. That wouldn't work with a food dish or toy or bone. Maybe "ENOUGH" would work. 

I guess it is may be like laser pointers. If your dog is not susceptible to having a problem with it, no amount of playing around with their food or taking stuff from them will cause an issue.


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## shepherdmom

brembo said:


> In the face of a dog? I don't understand WHY someone would want to do this. It's asking for a bloody lip when said dog headbutts on accident, and probably a threatening bit of body language. I can do it with mine, but I don't. I have also learned not to hover over dogs, doggie head uppercuts are painful and hovering over a dog IS a dominant display that can wig em out some. Mine seek my face now and again, mainly in play and I allow it, but sure don't encourage it.


I've felt the doggie headbutt on occasion. Ouch! Their heads are like rocks... But you teach them the face thing so that if a kid does get near the face they don't freak out. They don't have to like it but they do have to tolerate it.


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> I do! I do take the bones, I have Hans gnaw on a big ol' knuckle bone, and when it gets to a point where he could bite off chunks, I do take it away.
> But I make sure I have a nice meatball or other good thing in my hand to trade him.
> 
> There is a reason I take it, and he gets something really good in exchange. That way I think he is ok with having things taken away, because there is no need to resource guard.


There is no bargaining with a dog. It's your bone, always has been and when you want the bone back you take it and that is that. When they start thinking its theirs and decide they aren't giving it back that is a problem. If you are walking down the street and your dog picks up a bone from God knows what, you are taking that bone and probably don't have a meatball to trade with. Bones are not the only thing that is high value to dogs. As mentioned earlier little people, glasses, balls, anything a dog decides they want is high value to them. Sure I can give my dog a meatball for his ball but that ball might mean more to the dog to begin with. I just don't think bribing them to give something up is teaching them anything. They need to understand that they have to give it up whether they are getting something else or not. I don't take things away from them unless needed but I'm not bribing them to do so, they are trained to give it up without any expectations. It's incorporated in their training, because they only know what we teach them. In that sense they are a lot like kids...I might take away the Nintendo DS and I'm certainly not giving them a play station 4 in its place, because I'm Mom and I said so.


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## misslesleedavis1

@ sunflowers lol  ya, i want big poof lips everyday! that should be morning routine, get up get showered, have dogs head smash lips, style hair ...make up and go.


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> Only, when I say, "MINE" I don't want my dog to touch it ever again. That wouldn't work with a food dish or toy or bone. Maybe "ENOUGH" would work.


Everyone has their own commands.  I say "who is it?" when I want my dogs to bark. LOL


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## dogfaeries

I've gotten most of my dogs as puppies, and I've taught all of them "kiss". Sage will give me a big slurp on the nose. Carly bumps her nose against mine. Russell has finally figured it out, and will give me a smooch on the cheek. I like this. They don't really seem to view it any differently than, say, a command to shake hands. It's just a trick. I start it when I bring them home. That said, I wouldn't let a stranger or a kid come up and try it. I just don't think strangers need to be in my dog's face. At all. 

But, I also have "show dogs". They _have_ to let people get in their personal space. Judges have to be able to open a mouth and count those teeth, run their hands all over the dogs, and in the case of the males, check out those boy parts. Ever since Russell's been little, I've reached under while he's standing to make sure all his equipment is still there, just like at a dog show, LOL. Poor guy. Always gives me this look, like "hey!".  There's a lot to be said for doing silly show dog stuff when they are puppies.


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## shepherdmom

llombardo said:


> There is no bargaining with a dog. It's your bone, always has been and when you want the bone back you take it and that is that. When they start thinking its theirs and decide they aren't giving it back that is a problem. If you are walking down the street and your dog picks up a bone from God knows what, you are taking that bone and probably don't have a meatball to trade with. Bones are not the only thing that is high value to dogs. As mentioned earlier little people, glasses, balls, anything a dog decides they want is high value to them. Sure I can give my dog a meatball for his ball but that ball might mean more to the dog to begin with. I just don't think bribing them to give something up is teaching them anything. They need to understand that they have to give it up whether they are getting something else or not. I don't take things away from them unless needed but I'm not bribing them to do so, they are trained to give it up without any expectations. It's incorporated in their training, because they only know what we teach them. In that sense they are a lot like kids...I might take away the Nintendo DS and I'm certainly not giving them a play station 4 in its place, because I'm Mom and I said so.


:thumbup:


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## shepherdmom

dogfaeries said:


> I've gotten most of my dogs as puppies, and I've taught all of them "kiss". Sage will give me a big slurp on the nose. Carly bumps her nose against mine. Russell has finally figured it out, and will give me a smooch on the cheek. I like this. They don't really seem to view it any differently than, say, a command to shake hands. It's just a trick.


One way to get them close to the face it to teach them to take a cracker out of your mouth. I do this a lot with puppies. Many also give kisses. I had one that even learned to make the smoochie noises. It was so funny.


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## misslesleedavis1

shepherdmom said:


> One way to get them close to the face it to teach them to take a cracker out of your mouth. I do this a lot with puppies. Many also give kisses. I had one that even learned to make the smoochie noises. It was so funny.


. I have tried it with dexter but he flat out refuses to take anything out of my mouth, i have tried even cheese and he wont even look at me, he just gets all weird and awkward. I dont have the balls to try that with my 2 rescues though, they are like snack addicts i think i would come out missing my nose.


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## dogfaeries

I start out by bargaining on some things, and I just take other things. I usually say "hey hand it over". When they do (sometimes with my assistance, like prying it out of Russell's mouth), I always say thank you, LOL. When they are young, I guess do trade quite a bit, now that I think about it. Basically they get used to giving me what ever I want. After awhile I don't _have_ to give them anything, but sometimes I do. I've never had a resource guarder in 35+ years of dog ownership.


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## llombardo

I am not going to lie. Part of the training in the beginning is trading, it's like training any other command. They get treats all the time, then randomly, then no treats. It's a very short process.


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## dogfaeries

llombardo said:


> I am not going to lie. Part of the training in the beginning is trading, it's like training any other command. They get treats all the time, then randomly, then no treats. It's a very short process.


Absolutely!


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## llombardo

dogfaeries said:


> . I've never had a resource guarder in 35+ years of dog ownership.


I'm with you ..for just as long too


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## dogfaeries

Trying to think back to when my son was young and had friends over. We had Dobermans back then. He had one friend that kept wanting to hug Tess (why??), and I had to watch that kid like a hawk. She was young, and a VERY stable dog, but there was no sense in making her tolerate hugging from a kid that wasn't her own. When my son was about 6 years old, he dove on top of Tess on the bed. She growled. He got a big lecture about respecting his dog. And she got a "hey, don't be so grumpy". Never happened again.


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## dogfaeries

I teach all my dogs to sit and shake hands. Comes in handy, because kids, especially at dog shows, always want to pet my dogs, so I have the dog sit, and then tell the kid to ask them to shake hands. The dogs love it, the kids love it too. Win, win.


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## llombardo

Back to the personal space thing. When I was younger we got a German Shepherd/St Bernard, a huge dog that was never around babies or toddlers and didn't like them. He was about 14 yrs old when my son was born. One day when my son was about 10 months I left him in his crib in the basement sleeping and went upstairs to clean. 15 minutes later I walked into the kitchen and there was my son sitting next to the dog, right next to the dogs face, laughing and hitting him with his hands like babies do when they are excited. My heart stopped and I literally stopped breathing. The dog was growling and looking at me like get this kid out of my face. Normally I would expect the dog to walk away, but in this case that would have been real dangerous and the dog was so old he really couldn't move. In the softest voice I could come up with I started talking to the dog telling him he was a good boy and kept repeating that for the 15 ft I had to walk to get to them. Once there I put my body in front of the dog and scooped my son up. I made sure he was okay, he climbed out of his crib, over the gate and up 15 or do stairs to get to the dog. I got on the floor and praised, hugged , and kissed that dog like there was no tomorrow. That dog could have killed my son but I think deep down in my heart he knew the difference between right and wrong and he wasn't raised to bite anyone.


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## Sunflowers

llombardo said:


> There is no bargaining with a dog. It's your bone, always has been and when you want the bone back you take it and that is that. When they start thinking its theirs and decide they aren't giving it back that is a problem. If you are walking down the street and your dog picks up a bone from God knows what,



We really need a thread to talk about this. 

I do the same as you with objects. Everything else, he has to give me without trading, that does for balls, toys, and anything he has in his mouth that shouldn't be there. I do take things from him, always have. It started with the mulch and rocks he used to scarf as a puppy. All the toys are mine and he only gets them from me. 

Food, however, is in a different category for me. 

And if he is able to pick up a bone when you are walking, you are not walking him fast enough


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## Sunflowers

llombardo said:


> I think deep down in my heart he knew the difference between right and wrong


Dogs have no morals. You just got extremely lucky.


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## dogfaeries

Russell just turned 12 months old, and he's pretty good about handing things over. Okay, half the time I have to pry it out of his mouth, but he just stands there and doesn't protest. I think I need to step up the rewards for awhile.


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## dogfaeries

Back to kids and dog bites. 

I was 6 years old when I was bitten in the face by the next door neighbor's collie. I had just gotten home from school, and the collie was in the front yard. I bent down to say hi, and he jumped up and nailed me. My mother said I came home and rang the doorbell, and when she opened the door I was standing there with blood all over my face. Yikes, I must've have scared her to death. There was _no_ talk of putting the poor startled collie down. There _was_ a talk with me about not being stupid about dog behavior. The collie and I remained friends.


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## misslesleedavis1

dogfaeries said:


> Back to kids and dog bites.
> 
> I was 6 years old when I was bitten in the face by the next door neighbor's collie. I had just gotten home from school, and the collie was in the front yard. I bent down to say hi, and he jumped up and nailed me. My mother said I came home and rang the doorbell, and when she opened the door I was standing there with blood all over my face. Yikes, I must've have scared her to death. There was _no_ talk of putting the poor startled collie down. There _was_ a talk with me about not being stupid about dog behavior. The collie and I remained friends.



My dad was the same way. I got an epic talking to, 
The dog was only pts when his hips got so bad my dad had to carry him upstairs and down , he was 14.
I cried like a baby when finn did not come home from the vets and my mom explained why.

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## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> Dogs have no morals. You just got extremely lucky.


I think it was more than luck. Dogs may have no morals but they do seem to know babies. We talk about puppy license a lot. I notice the same thing with babies, many dogs seem to know young.


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## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> I think it was more than luck. Dogs may have no morals but they do seem to know babies. We talk about puppy license a lot. I notice the same thing with babies, many dogs seem to know young.


Not that one. It was growling.


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## dogfaeries

I know a lot of people want to shut down a dog when it growls, and I understand that. But when my dog is uncomfortable in a situation, I'd rather them growl than bite. 

What do we do about growling?


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## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> Not that one. It was growling.


Hey if a baby was tugging on me I'd growl too.... But I wouldn't bite!


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## KathrynApril

When I was a baby, I plopped down onto the babysitter's dog's leg. My mom couldn't remember if I was one or two. What the babysitter didn't know was the dog had a broken leg. Though thinking now how could they not know that? Anyways he grabbed me by my face and threw me. 
They told my mom I was lucky as the dog could of just crushed my skull. I have only a very faint scar under my eye from it. I dont even remember the event.

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## carmspack

so every one messes and mauls with the dog , give and take away --

not a one (I believe) has used basic obedience . If you want to control a resource , control the dog. Put the resource down . Dog is taught to sit , stay , recall , wait . It is yours until you give it . That is much more impressive and overall good relationship building then , what Bailiff called THB (typical human bull****) 

this will give you more control than all the other "stuff"


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## my boy diesel

Sunflowers said:


> I have no problem with sticking hands in.
> I do it too, but I_ add_ something. I do not take away. The dog quickly learns that if I am in his food bowl, good things will show up in it.
> It only makes sense to me.
> 
> I really do not get the taking thing.


:thumbup:

what do folks do
when their dog fails the test
and bites them when they stick their hands into the bowl?


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> Not that one. It was growling.


But he didn't bite and he had plenty of time. They were face to face.


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## llombardo

carmspack said:


> so every one messes and mauls with the dog , give and take away --
> 
> not a one (I believe) has used basic obedience . If you want to control a resource , control the dog. Put the resource down . Dog is taught to sit , stay , recall , wait . It is yours until you give it . That is much more impressive and overall good relationship building then , what Bailiff called THB (typical human bull****)
> 
> this will give you more control than all the other "stuff"


I have. Wait is a big command as is leave it. It all goes together and teaches the dog self control at the same time. Yes it is mine until I give it but it's also mine when I take it away. Just because you give it does not mean the dog doesn't have to give it back. I have an outstanding and trusting relationship with all of my dogs.


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## dogfaeries

I don't want to live with unruly dogs.

I use "wait" and "leave it" too. In fact, just a hour ago, Sage counter-surfed a package of crackers that my nephew left open. I heard them fall on the floor. I said "leave it". She didn't touch them. She just stood there watching, while I picked them up and dumped them in the trash. Yes, she shouldn't counter surf, but it happens. 

I don't mess with my dogs food, or give and take to make a point. If I have to take something, I don't get an argument over it. I teach them manners, basic obedience. I don't yell or threaten. I don't harass them. I try to be consistent. They listen to me. If I want to sit on the couch, and there is a dog in my spot, I just say "off". The girls don't even hesitate, they just jump off. They never jump on me, and haven't since they were very young. Russell is a puppy - he's a work in progress. He's improving all the time. 

All this stuff is really basic stuff.


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## brembo

Another thought....

When in situations where there are kids running around I'm pretty jumpy to begin with. When my dog is in the mix I am hyper-alert, with said dog(s) on lead. People don't bring their kids to my house, partly my rules and most kids would be in danger here. I have multiple rifles/pistols laying around, chemicals and a variety of sharp implements scattered here and there. It's the bachelor pad from Hades really. 

I do take my dogs to some family(adoptive) events and if my dog(s) are not on lead they are crated or in the truck with a nice bone to gnaw on. If it's an adults only event, I relax some and let the furry britches roam some(they even get a little swig of beer). I can't trust kids to be predictable, and if I can't predict what sort of situation the dogs are going to be faced with I want them tethered to me so I can control the situation as best possible.


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## Chip18

Gretchen said:


> Since my husband does not like a lot of socialization when he's home (he gets a ton at work), it was difficult to social Molly to other people. She definitely loves that our immediate family and cats are in her face, and she licks back, but I'd never want to test her on another person. While we are at the vet, and the vet techs are listening to her heart at her level she will try to lick their face, she knows they like her. We also have a business neighbor that clearly loves all dogs and she will let him get in her face.
> 
> My neighbor has a very sweet, submissive female pitbull. This is her first dog. Since hers is so sweet, maybe she thought all were sweet and while on a walk by herself, she saw another pitbull and bent down to the dog's level to pet and say hello, I guess she was too close and the stranger pitbull bit her in the face, requiring and ER visit and plastic surgery 6 months later on her upper lip. Ever since her story I am apprehensive about getting too close to another dog's face, even if the owner says its very nice.


Only thing I can add, is, that for the most part the people that actually know and train there dog are not going to be the ones putting their dogs at risk.

Your meeting the "I thought he was friendly folks" and it can often be an "opps guess I was wrong meeting???"

If someone ask me about a dog dog meeting, my answer would be "No" because I know my dogs! 

Not meaning to make light of your situation, just trying to explain what happened.


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## Chip18

dogfaeries said:


> I know a lot of people want to shut down a dog when it growls, and I understand that. But when my dog is uncomfortable in a situation, I'd rather them growl than bite.
> 
> What do we do about growling?


Well you're right. If a dog is growling a "real" growl he is telling you he has an issue and it's your job to figure it out and deal with it. 

What you need to do and how it's dealt with vary with the situation and with the dog. 

If you just shut him down and don't deal with his "problem" the clock is ticking!


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## David Winners

I just read the whole thread, and there is a commonality among all the posters that get in their dogs faces and food bowls. They have never had a problem with it.

You don't need to address possessiveness in a dog if it isn't there. If the dog doesn't care in the first place, all the kissing, hugging, food stealing and toy taking isn't going to matter. You all have confidence that your methods are the best because you haven't had to deal with a dog that breaks your hand when you reach for his food.

Nowhere in any of these posts do I see anyone training the dog to do anything. "I just take the bone or toy from the dog. It is mine and it needs to understand that." That's all fine and well if it works. "I get in my dogs faces all the time and they would never hurt anyone doing the same." Super! You have a nice dog. If you just did it and didn't have any trouble, you didn't train the dog to do anything. You just have a nice dog. If you repeatedly test their possessiveness and succeed, you have a patient dog that is willing to put up with some unfair conditions because it is easy going.

The same, "That is mine and I'm going to take it whether you like it or not" attitude can turn an uncomfortable dog into a dangerous resource guarder. I am honestly glad that you haven't had to deal with this. It can be difficult. Ask Cesar.

When testing shelter dogs, I always approach them low and looking to the side. If the dog is comfortable with me, I will offer some eye contact and see how it goes. I'm usually pretty close to the dog's face when this happens, and the dog is restrained by a helper. If the dog is cool with this, I will give a scratch under the chin and get into it's face to see how it does. I always have my hand somewhere on the dog when I do this so I can feel the dog tense.

Lots of dogs get stressed in this position. Most of them don't do anything about it, but they are definitely uncomfortable. My rule is, if the dog doesn't like it, I don't do it until I have the opportunity to work with the dog. If the dog is not OK with me being in his face, I teach him that it's a fun a rewarding behavior. I never expect a dog to be naturally OK with such a challenging behavior. This is with adolescent and adult dogs. 

Puppies get daily handling treatment with lots of marks and treats. I trade for stuff I want at first, and then ask for them to bring it to me later. I don't ever assume that I will be able to just take something away from the dog when it is an adult. I teach it to bring anything and everything to me when I ask. 

After being at my house for 2 weeks, just out of the shelter, Lucian grabbed a cooked, bone in pork chop off the island. It was from the end of the loin that contains a T-bone, and they are really sharp on the one end. I had to get it back or risk a puncture. I told him to sit. He sat and held the chop in his mouth, staring at me. I calmly walked up, ready to fly into action if he decided to hoover it, and took his collar with my left hand so I could lift him if necessary. I took the end of the chop that was hanging out of his mouth in my right hand and gave him the down command. He had been proofed on this command and I knew that if he didn't comply, I could correct him for it and he would understand. He laid down, leaving the chop in my hand. If he would have ignored the command, I would have lifted him off the chop with his flat collar.

I pulled the meat off the bone and did OB commands with him, rewarding him with pieces of the chop. This showed him that he could trust me, and if he listened he would be satisfied one way or another. I don't want to build conflict if I can avoid it and I want to build trust at every opportunity.


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## Chip18

David Winners said:


> I just read the whole thread, and there is a commonality among all the posters that get in their dogs faces and food bowls. They have never had a problem with it.
> 
> You don't need to address possessiveness in a dog if it isn't there. If the dog doesn't care in the first place, all the kissing, hugging, food stealing and toy taking isn't going to matter. You all have confidence that your methods are the best because you haven't had to deal with a dog that breaks your hand when you reach for his food.


LOL ,I was thinking..hmm these dogs are learning that there humans can be PIA's...but what are you gonna do??


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## dogfaeries

I groom dogs for a living. I've been doing it for 37 years and I've seen all kinds of weird behavior from dogs and people in that time. It's amazing what behaviors that people inadvertently train. And equally amazing that people will get a dog and have zero knowledge about dog behavior. 

I personally don't see the need to harass a dog while they are eating. I must be doing something right in that respect, because I can move a dish while a dog is eating if I need too. I can take things away from my dogs without a fuss from them, and that would include David's yummy pork chop. 


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## llombardo

David Winners said:


> I just read the whole thread, and there is a commonality among all the posters that get in their dogs faces and food bowls. They have never had a problem with it.
> 
> You don't need to address possessiveness in a dog if it isn't there. If the dog doesn't care in the first place, all the kissing, hugging, food stealing and toy taking isn't going to matter. You all have confidence that your methods are the best because you haven't had to deal with a dog that breaks your hand when you reach for his food.
> 
> Nowhere in any of these posts do I see anyone training the dog to do anything. "I just take the bone or toy from the dog. It is mine and it needs to understand that." That's all fine and well if it works. "I get in my dogs faces all the time and they would never hurt anyone doing the same." Super! You have a nice dog. If you just did it and didn't have any trouble, you didn't train the dog to do anything. You just have a nice dog. If you repeatedly test their possessiveness and succeed, you have a patient dog that is willing to put up with some unfair conditions because it is easy going.
> 
> The same, "That is mine and I'm going to take it whether you like it or not" attitude can turn an uncomfortable dog into a dangerous resource guarder. I am honestly glad that you haven't had to deal with this. It can be difficult. Ask Cesar.
> 
> When testing shelter dogs, I always approach them low and looking to the side. If the dog is comfortable with me, I will offer some eye contact and see how it goes. I'm usually pretty close to the dog's face when this happens, and the dog is restrained by a helper. If the dog is cool with this, I will give a scratch under the chin and get into it's face to see how it does. I always have my hand somewhere on the dog when I do this so I can feel the dog tense.
> 
> Lots of dogs get stressed in this position. Most of them don't do anything about it, but they are definitely uncomfortable. My rule is, if the dog doesn't like it, I don't do it until I have the opportunity to work with the dog. If the dog is not OK with me being in his face, I teach him that it's a fun a rewarding behavior. I never expect a dog to be naturally OK with such a challenging behavior. This is with adolescent and adult dogs.
> 
> Puppies get daily handling treatment with lots of marks and treats. I trade for stuff I want at first, and then ask for them to bring it to me later. I don't ever assume that I will be able to just take something away from the dog when it is an adult. I teach it to bring anything and everything to me when I ask.
> 
> After being at my house for 2 weeks, just out of the shelter, Lucian grabbed a cooked, bone in pork chop off the island. It was from the end of the loin that contains a T-bone, and they are really sharp on the one end. I had to get it back or risk a puncture. I told him to sit. He sat and held the chop in his mouth, staring at me. I calmly walked up, ready to fly into action if he decided to hoover it, and took his collar with my left hand so I could lift him if necessary. I took the end of the chop that was hanging out of his mouth in my right hand and gave him the down command. He had been proofed on this command and I knew that if he didn't comply, I could correct him for it and he would understand. He laid down, leaving the chop in my hand. If he would have ignored the command, I would have lifted him off the chop with his flat collar.
> 
> I pulled the meat off the bone and did OB commands with him, rewarding him with pieces of the chop. This showed him that he could trust me, and if he listened he would be satisfied one way or another. I don't want to build conflict if I can avoid it and I want to build trust at every opportunity.


First, I don't agree with Cesar, so therefore I don't use his techniques. Second, my dogs are trained either when they come home or very young to give up whatever they have if it's time to give it up. At that time they do get treats, but like any other training treats are faded out. Thirdly, dogs don't know the difference between what is high value and what is not, we think bones are of high value, but are they to the dog? None of my dogs like raw food, none of my dogs gulp down their food like its going to disappear, Midnites highest value thing would be his ball, ball over bone anyday. We can't determine what is high value for the dog. I personally am not going to try to guess what is more valuable to them and it becomes all or nothing. Do I put my hands in their bowls? No . Do I take their bones away? No. But I can with no issues because they were trained that us what happens. IMO it's a trained behavior, because I have had many dogs, all different breeds that learned it. The lab I got at 8 yrs old learned it within a week. I don't nor do I recommend going into a dogs face, but I can if I choose to with my own dogs. We have no stress of tension in the house.


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## JakodaCD OA

I also don't harrass my dogs when eating, and anyone could take their food away stick their hands in bowls with no issues. They have something they shouldn't, a calm 'drop it', maybe trading up if the moment allows, works..BUT that is MY dogs.

As for the huggy/kissy/ stuff, again, all the dogs I've had/have, don't mind me, people they know doing it, but I'm just not willing to have some stranger/kid hang all over my dog.

My feeling is, *I *don't want some kid or stranger hanging all over me, why would I allow them to do that my animals? 

It's about "respecting" other people's property and that's what dogs are in the end, property (tho I view them more than that!)

The majority of gsd's I've had have always been aloof to the point of, not giving two poops about anyone other than me. They tolerate attention from strangers but they don't seek it out. That is also fine with me. 

They are dogs, that can't talk, their way of communication is to leave a situation they don't like, (if they can) or deal with it the only way they know how, growl/nip/bite. 

I havent' had gsd's my entire life for other peoples enjoyment, they are for my enjoyment

Of course I insist on good behavior in public from all my dogs, it's a necessary since they go to alot of public places with me. I respect other people's dogs, I expect the same in return.


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## dogfaeries

I've had older rescued dogs and it's quite different, obviously, than dealing with a brand new cute baby puppy. That 13 year old scared and abandoned old Doberman I brought home one time was _definitely_ not the same as dealing with my 9 week old Dobe puppy. So much of this stuff is just common sense, and BEING PATIENT. Too many people try to go too fast, and then are surprised when their dog's behaviors fall apart.


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## JakodaCD OA

Diane exactly^^


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## misslesleedavis1

I dont think posters are sticking hands in food bowls on a daily basis or taking things away everyday, there is nothing wrong with knowing your dogs, 

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## LaRen616

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also don't harrass my dogs when eating, and anyone could take their food away stick their hands in bowls with no issues. They have something they shouldn't, a calm 'drop it', maybe trading up if the moment allows, works..BUT that is MY dogs.
> 
> As for the huggy/kissy/ stuff, again, all the dogs I've had/have, don't mind me, people they know doing it, but I'm just not willing to have some stranger/kid hang all over my dog.
> 
> My feeling is, *I *don't want some kid or stranger hanging all over me, why would I allow them to do that my animals?
> 
> It's about "respecting" other people's property and that's what dogs are in the end, property (tho I view them more than that!)
> 
> The majority of gsd's I've had have always been aloof to the point of, not giving two poops about anyone other than me. They tolerate attention from strangers but they don't seek it out. That is also fine with me.
> 
> They are dogs, that can't talk, their way of communication is to leave a situation they don't like, (if they can) or deal with it the only way they know how, growl/nip/bite.
> 
> I havent' had gsd's my entire life for other peoples enjoyment, they are for my enjoyment
> 
> Of course I insist on good behavior in public from all my dogs, it's a necessary since they go to alot of public places with me. I respect other people's dogs, I expect the same in return.


:thumbup: I completely agree with this.


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## carmspack

Agreed . David W , that is why I said it just messes and mauls the dog . He said "Nowhere in any of these posts do I see anyone training the dog to do anything. "I just take the bone or toy from the dog. It is mine and it needs to understand that." That's all fine and well if it works. " If you just did it and didn't have any trouble, you didn't train the dog to do anything. 

If you repeatedly test their possessiveness and succeed, you have a patient dog that is willing to put up with some unfair conditions because it is easy going "


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## katro

I think you really need to know the dog's personality. My first childhood dog (Baby) would not put up with ANYONE being in her face. She would let us hug her, but face-to-face was too close for her. She never bit anyone for this, but she gave plenty of warning for you to back off. My second childhood dog (Lucky), on the other hand, was perfectly ok with pretty much anyone being face-to-face and hugging as is my Ralphie now. There are caveats to that, though; Ralphie is fine with me, my husband, and our friends that he has met many times being that close, but with strangers he is cautious and doesn't even allow pets until he's ready. He won't be aggressive or snap, he will simply back away and keep his distance. It's important to read the cues that the dogs gives you. 

As far as other dogs go, Baby was not particularly into socializing with dogs outside her pack (Lucky was part of her pack). Lucky was good with other dogs, but ones that were too forward or ran up to him to greet him, he would snap or nip to say "Whoa, calm down!" Ralphie is great with other dogs; he's very submissive and wants to play. We haven't had a situation where any dog has charged him nor has he charged any other dog, but once they sniff each other Ralphie makes his intentions of it playtime clear.

In regards to food and toy possessiveness, Baby was not gentle. My parents never trained her out of this (nor did they bother to attempt to) we just knew that if you were going to give her food from your hand not to hold it with your fingers or they'd get bit. You had to hand feed her like a horse e.g. put the food in your palm. I don't remember if she was possessive of her bowl, but again, as a general rule, we didn't mess with her. As kids, if she growled at us when we did something, we stopped doing it. Lucky was a push-over and I actually trained him to put his front feet on my knees and take food out of my mouth with his tiny front teeth. My parents were amazed at how gentle he was. You could walk up to him mid-chew and take the kibble out of his mouth and he wouldn't do a thing about it. Same with toys. Ralphie's the same way - not food or toy possessive and will take things from your hands without nipping. 

Well, after all that, I think my main point is - GET TO KNOW YOUR DOG! Work on training with the behaviors you don't like. You may not be 100% successful and if you're not, then learn how to manage it. Learn how to read their reactions. It's not hard to see when they are uncomfortable with something. Same goes for people, IMO.


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## Sunflowers

Well, then, let's discuss the training we do.
I worked to train "give" and "leave it." I also worked on "bring."

Hans's favorite toy is his blue Wigzi ball. A K9 trainer who evaluated him said Hans would do anything for that ball. I keep that ball, he gets it when I give it to him, and he needs to do things to earn it. Either watch me, or sit, or down, he has to do something before he gets that ball. When he is penned, I take it away. That ball appears when I am around to interact with him.

He has growled a couple of times when I moved to take it out of his mouth. When that happened, I used the give command, and he gave it to me. Then, we did more obedience.

We also use that ball to have him search. I close him up somewhere, I go hide it in the house, and then open the door and release him to find his toy. The reward is fetch with it.

We train patience when opening and closing doors, he is not allowed to rush outside. He knows the quiet command and stops barking when asked. He knows wait, come, stay, and stop. He knows "let me see" which I use to inspect his teeth, belly, or any place on his body I think needs to be checked (he has lots of skin problems.)

As far as food is concerned, he automatically sits when he sees me with the food bowl and looks into my eyes until I release him to eat.
There are several others, but that is the gist of what we do. Pet obedience.
I look forward to suggestions. I would like to do more with him.


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## carmspack

this is not a good idea on so many levels , including the dog's perspective of place "One way to get them close to the face it to teach them to take a cracker out of your mouth"


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## misslesleedavis1

Anyone use the gentle command? I use it, when I have a treat for them, they sit and I say gentle and give the treat. 

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## katro

carmspack said:


> this is not a good idea on so many levels , including the dog's perspective of place "One way to get them close to the face it to teach them to take a cracker out of your mouth"


True. I wouldn't attempt to do this with Ralphie, but when I did this with Lucky a) I was 11 years old and everyone thought it was cool and encouraged it, b) Lucky was my BFF so I had complete trust in him, c) I had no fear and no real concept of training or what a dog of his size was capable of since I'd never had a bad experience with a dog, and d) it was many, many moons ago. I would NEVER had tried this with our other dog, though, because I knew I couldn't trust her to not eat my face.


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## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> I just read the whole thread, and there is a commonality among all the posters that get in their dogs faces and food bowls. They have never had a problem with it.
> 
> You don't need to address possessiveness in a dog if it isn't there. If the dog doesn't care in the first place, all the kissing, hugging, food stealing and toy taking isn't going to matter. You all have confidence that your methods are the best because you haven't had to deal with a dog that breaks your hand when you reach for his food.
> 
> Nowhere in any of these posts do I see anyone training the dog to do anything. "I just take the bone or toy from the dog. It is mine and it needs to understand that." That's all fine and well if it works. "I get in my dogs faces all the time and they would never hurt anyone doing the same." Super! You have a nice dog. If you just did it and didn't have any trouble, you didn't train the dog to do anything. You just have a nice dog. If you repeatedly test their possessiveness and succeed, you have a patient dog that is willing to put up with some unfair conditions because it is easy going.
> 
> The same, "That is mine and I'm going to take it whether you like it or not" attitude can turn an uncomfortable dog into a dangerous resource guarder. I am honestly glad that you haven't had to deal with this. It can be difficult. Ask Cesar.


You don't know me, you don't know my dogs and you young man can talk after you have close to 30 years experience raising kids and dogs. You may not like my methods but they do work for me. Dogs that can't handle having someone in their face or in their food bowl are not stable enough to be in my home around my kids and grandkids. You don't make a dangerous resource guarder that is genetic. All you can do is work with what you have and if you train a puppy young enough that people are as Chip put in PIA then they won't be surprised when someone suddenly darts into their space. Buddy was 11 years old and had sensitive ears when some lady darted up to us before we could block her and attacked his ears really rubbing on him and saying what a good dog. Buddy stood there and looked at me saying help. He did not flinch growl or bite this crazy lady. How many of you who never let people in your dogs face can say their dogs would have done the same? People are unpredictable and no matter how you try to protect your dogs some jerk is going to get through. I won't have my dog dying because some jerk got through.


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## gsdraven

shepherdmom said:


> You don't make a dangerous resource guarder that is genetic. All you can do is work with what you


And believe it or not, you are actually agreeing with David. Just as a resource guarder is based on genetics and temperament, so is a stable patient dog.

Pushing a dog who is already inclined to guarding will make it worse. It is fortunate that your dogs have never had that problem. Millions of other dogs do.


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## Blanketback

I teach "drop it" and "leave it" so there aren't very many times where I've actually messed around taking things from my dogs. There was the one time when my dog didn't want to drop the squirrel he caught, but I think the loud girly scream I gave out when I saw the fleas swarming all over it must have convinced him. I need a reliable "leave it" because my dogs are off leash where people drop garbage and don't pick up after their dogs, not to mention wildlife feces. I'd be negligent if I didn't prevent my dogs from scarfing back all those goodies, and telling them not to seems like the easiest solution.

Getting in their faces is another thing that has to be done, but we all do it. Even clipping on a leash will put your face in close proximity. They don't mind that, since they're getting a walk, lol. This pup I have now is the first one that will solicit my face. I used to be grossed out by it, but he won my heart. There's nothing better than being woken up by dog kisses.


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## my boy diesel

gsdraven said:


> And believe it or not, you are actually agreeing with David. Just as a resource guarder is based on genetics and temperament, so is a stable patient dog.
> 
> Pushing a dog who is already inclined to guarding will make it worse. It is fortunate that your dogs have never had that problem. Millions of other dogs do.


thing is
dogs are genetically wired to 
resource guard
newborn puppies on the tit with their eyes still closed
will resource guard that tit
if they lose it they die
its that simple


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## Zlata

I just wanted to throw in my own anecdotal two cents regarding the issue of faces/being close to faces/biting.

We took in our GSDx from a rescue situation when he was 7 weeks old. He has always, from day one, had an issue with faces and personal space. I honestly don't think it's aggression as more as it is bad manners, lack of boundaries, and perhaps poor socialization (I truly wish he had stayed with his littermates longer, but the rescue wanted to use the mom GSD as a service dog which required an immediate spay, so they tried to wean her/get the puppies out ASAP.)

I did everything 'by the books', so to speak. I socialized him with people and other well-mannered dogs. We started obedience classes at 14 weeks, and we continue to do private obedience. He loves people and other dogs. He has never shown aggression in the form of snarling, growling, biting, etc to humans or other dogs. He is a silly, goofy, hyperactive, lovable dog. But faces, man, it's something about faces. He has gotten much better about it. You used to not be able to sit on the ground or at his level, because he would just barrel up to you and do this odd, open-mouthed light 'bite' on your face. I honestly think he is trying to play or 'rough house' like he would with another dog. I truly do not sense any spite with this behavior. Alas, we went through A LOT of private obedience instruction to eliminate this behavior, but it does surface still on occasion. I notice he is prone to doing this when he's a. overly excited b. overly tired or c. if you reach over him and 'hug' and put your face near his. It never breaks the skin. There's never any real 'pressure.' It's just this odd, open-mouthed set teeth on your face kind of thing.

Anyway, I have no idea why he does this. I don't know if it is him being ill-mannered and trying to play. I don't know if it's a 'get out of my face' issue. I don't know *what* it is. But I do know to instruct people to stay clear of sticking their faces into his, and I do not ever have him unsupervised around children (especially since they are at his level, so to speak.) Even though I truly do not believe what he's doing is out of malice, I would never want it to be misconstrued as such. 

Anyway, just a long-winded way of saying that dogs do weird things, even when you think you have done everything 'right.'


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## my boy diesel

dogfaeries said:


> I groom dogs for a living. I've been doing it for 37 years and I've seen all kinds of weird behavior from dogs and people in that time. It's amazing what behaviors that people inadvertently train. And equally amazing that people will get a dog and have zero knowledge about dog behavior.
> 
> I personally don't see the need to harass a dog while they are eating. I must be doing something right in that respect, because I can move a dish while a dog is eating if I need too. I can take things away from my dogs without a fuss from them, and that would include David's yummy pork chop.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


probably because you didnt get on the floor next to them
and pretend to eat out of their bowl to make sure they are 
stable dogs 

i never fiddle with my dogs food or bowls either
and they let me if i need to
i dont give them stuff and take it back just to see if i can
because they trust and love me and they let me if i need to


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## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> You don't know me, you don't know my dogs and you young man can talk after you have close to 30 years experience raising kids and dogs. You may not like my methods but they do work for me. Dogs that can't handle having someone in their face or in their food bowl are not stable enough to be in my home around my kids and grandkids. You don't make a dangerous resource guarder that is genetic. All you can do is work with what you have and if you train a puppy young enough that people are as Chip put in PIA then they won't be surprised when someone suddenly darts into their space. Buddy was 11 years old and had sensitive ears when some lady darted up to us before we could block her and attacked his ears really rubbing on him and saying what a good dog. Buddy stood there and looked at me saying help. He did not flinch growl or bite this crazy lady. How many of you who never let people in your dogs face can say their dogs would have done the same? People are unpredictable and no matter how you try to protect your dogs some jerk is going to get through. I won't have my dog dying because some jerk got through.



I am a grandfather myself, and I have over 30 years in dogs. I grew up in a working kennels and have been a professional trainer for decades. Working dogs are often very possessive and I am very familiar with the training of dogs that will fight you for a toy or food.

I have seen plenty of dogs that were terrible resource guarders that were conditioned to be that way. If possessiveness were strictly genetic, removing the conflict from these dogs would not solve the problem as it often does.


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## carmspack

mbd said
thing is
dogs are genetically wired to 
resource guard
newborn puppies on the tit with their eyes still closed
will resource guard that tit
if they lose it they die
its that simple 

xxxxxxxx not really -- they are not social at that time . can't guard, can't defend --


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## shepherdmom

gsdraven said:


> Pushing a dog who is already inclined to guarding will make it worse.


I completely disagree. Putting hands in the bowl of a puppy who might be inclined to be food guarding will not, IMO, make it worse. You have to teach puppies about the world around them. Get them used to what is normal. 

The long time experienced breeder and trainer at our rescue put water bottles and pepsi cans into a kiddy pool and fed the pups in that pool with the cans and water bottles so that they would get used to noise and sharing. We also hand fed the with scraps of meat. I know many of the feel good touchy feel y group would have put each of the 7 puppies in a separate crate and gave the their own food and left them alone... But for heavens sake if you do that how are they going to ever learn?


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## misslesleedavis1

Were did the "stick your hands in the food bowl" idea come from? Anyone know? Seems to be a divide, 

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## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> I am a grandfather myself, and I have over 30 years in dogs. I grew up in a working kennels and have been a professional trainer for decades. Working dogs are often very possessive and I am very familiar with the training of dogs that will fight you for a toy or food.


Working dogs and pet dogs are two completely different ball games. I have no knowledge or experience with true working dogs. They have a whole different set of rules they need to follow. I only know what works for me in my pet home.


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## shepherdmom

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Were did the "stick your hands in the food bowl" idea come from? Anyone know? Seems to be a divide,
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Its been around for a long time. My dad a WW2 vet did it, and my maternal granddad a midwest farmer did it.

Also dog trainer Dunbar recommends hand feeding or putting you hand in food bowl with a special treat. I don't use a special treat but just feed puppy his kibble out of my hand that is in his bowl.


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## Lilie

selzer said:


> So the question is, do you socialize the dog and familiarize them with hugs and people up in their faces, or is it more the dogs that have people doing this, and are displaying increasing discomfort with it, the ones that are more likely to lash out?


Hondo isn't a social butterfly. I respect him enough to ensure strangers don't hug and kiss him. He doesn't like it. I see no reason at all to allow strangers to do it to him. How do I know he doesn't like it? I know how to read my dog. 

While at the vet, Hondo will allow the vet or the tech to handle any part of his body. He watches me. They can fawn, attempt to treat etc. He ignores them and watches me. To me that says that he trusts me as his leader and knows I wouldn't allow anything to happen to him. If the vet is going to give an injection or take blood, I hold his head. NO animal is bomb proof. (I hate that term!!!)

My Lacy and my Doxie are social butterflies. They want to be physcial with strangers. I allow it. If they start showing any signs of getting stressed, I remove my dog. 

I don't stick my hands in my dog's food bowl. I am SHE who gives everything good. I see nothing accomplished with giving them the one thing they've been waiting for all day, just to take it away or mess with it. 

I have no problem at all removing anything from my dog(s). I never yank it out of their mouth (as adults). I ask them to either leave it or bring it to me. If for some reason I have to remove their food bowl while they are eating, I'll tell them to leave it and remove the bowl. I'd never just reach down with out letting them know of my intentions. Respect. I see no reason to snatch it from them just to see what they'd do. 

I am not now, nor will ever be the 'boss' of my dog(s). I am their leader. I want my dog(s) to think on their own. I earn their respect. They earn mine.


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## gsdraven

shepherdmom said:


> I completely disagree. Putting hands in the bowl of a puppy who might be inclined to be food guarding will not, IMO, make it worse. You have to teach puppies about the world around them. Get them used to what is normal.
> 
> The long time experienced breeder and trainer at our rescue put water bottles and pepsi cans into a kiddy pool and fed the pups in that pool with the cans and water bottles so that they would get used to noise and sharing. We also hand fed the with scraps of meat. I know many of the feel good touchy feel y group would have put each of the 7 puppies in a separate crate and gave the their own food and left them alone... But for heavens sake if you do that how are they going to ever learn?


Disagree all you want. I've worked with many dogs that resource guard from as young as 12 weeks to as old as 5+ years. I know what works and what doesn't. 

A current litter from a rescue I volunteer with, all the pups are starting to show resource guarding - each one raised from 8-12 weeks in different foster homes before adopted at 12 weeks. The ones in homes who tried to "prevent it" are worse than the ones who weren't constantly messing with their food. 

There are lots of ways to train a dog (and yes, positively or touchy feely as you call it) that have nothing to do with getting in constant conflict with the dog or simply locking it away.


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## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> Working dogs and pet dogs are two completely different ball games. I have no knowledge or experience with true working dogs. They have a whole different set of rules they need to follow. I only know what works for me in my pet home.


I was a pet trainer for 15 years before I got into working dogs again. I'm not trying to discredit anything you do, your dogs or your experiences. I am just saying that there are dogs out there that are not like the ones you have spoken of, pet and working alike. Some are born, some are created.

It isn't a bad thing that many posters on this thread haven't experienced guarding behavior. I have, and I am sharing my experience. If it didn't exist, every general dog behavior book under the sun wouldn't address it.

I guess my point is that just because something has worked for the few dogs people have owned, doesn't mean it will work for all of them. Most dogs adopted out of shelters (that evaluate dogs) don't have possessiveness issues because it is a major part of the temperament test that screens dogs for adoption. Dogs that guard get euthanized. If resource guarding counter conditioning were as simple as exposing the dog to people reaching into their bowls and showing them who is boss, this wouldn't be the case.


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## misslesleedavis1

shepherdmom said:


> Its been around for a long time. My dad a WW2 vet did it, and my maternal granddad a midwest farmer did it.


My mother did that too, im not 30 yet but this "hands in the food bowl" is not a new crazy idea.


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## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> Its been around for a long time. My dad a WW2 vet did it, and my maternal granddad a midwest farmer did it.
> 
> Also dog trainer Dunbar recommends hand feeding or putting you hand in food bowl with a special treat. I don't use a special treat but just feed puppy his kibble out of my hand that is in his bowl.


Hand feeding or adding tasty treats is far different than showing the dog who is boss.


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## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> If resource guarding counter conditioning were as simple as exposing the dog to people reaching into their bowls and showing them who is boss, this wouldn't be the case.


How is putting your hand into a puppy's bowl and feeding him kibble out of your hand showing him who is boss? How is picking up a dangerous piece of small bone and saying "mine" showing him who is boss? That is not it at all.


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## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> Hand feeding or adding tasty treats is far different than showing the dog who is boss.


You posted at the same time I did.... but who is advocating showing the dog who is boss? Not me! I'm advocating getting a puppy used to what he is going to have to deal with in my home. With 5 dogs I have to be something of the boss, but I'm not afraid to get down on the floor and let them climb all over me. wiggles regularly crawls into my lap and demands hugs and kisses. I'm not some crazy dog abuser.


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## Blanketback

My DH's AmBull was a guarder. I don't know if it was how she was treated at the breeder's, if she had to fight for her food, or what. I do know she was queen of the household when I moved in. She owned all the furniture and she owned all the bones that were meant to be shared with my dog. She really owned her food bowl, wow!

I still don't trust her to the point that I'd remove something from her mouth. She will obey "leave it" so that I can take something away once she's dropped it. She's fine with the furniture, bones, and her bowl now. This didn't happen overnight, and it didn't happen entirely through 'touchy feely' training but she's nothing like the dog she once was. You'd never know how bad she'd been if you met her today. If I'd have started right off the bat by sticking my hands in her bowl, I'd still be single. Maybe missing a finger, too.


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## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> You posted at the same time I did.... but who is advocating showing the dog who is boss? Not me! I'm advocating getting a puppy used to what he is going to have to deal with in my home. With 5 dogs I have to be something of the boss, but I'm not afraid to get down on the floor and let them climb all over me. wiggles regularly crawls into my lap and demands hugs and kisses. I'm not some crazy dog abuser.


OK, I have no idea where you got the crazy dog abuser thing.

I will single this statement out so maybe it will stay with you. 

I am not saying you are doing something wrong.

I am saying you haven't experienced a resource guarding dog.

That is a good thing.

They exist.


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## misslesleedavis1

I dont count puppy dexter growling at me when he was chowing down as a "guarding experiance" because he was so little and he did get over it quickly.
I do however count shilohs severe food aggression with other dogs as a real experiance, and i worked on that so slowly with her, and she is totally over it now. She went from a dog that could not have dexter 6 ft away from her while she ate to a dog that eats beside and shares food now.
The more i read though the more i am beginning to think that she never had a problem to begin with, something she aquired living on the street probably, just took her a year to unlearn that issue.


----------



## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> OK, I have no idea where you got the crazy dog abuser thing.
> 
> I will single this statement out so maybe it will stay with you.
> 
> I am not saying you are doing something wrong.
> 
> I am saying you haven't experienced a resource guarding dog.
> 
> That is a good thing.
> 
> They exist.


Wanna tell me again how I've never experienced a resource guarder? 










I rescued her from dying of thirst in the desert. She slept in her water bowl for months. My family could take anything from her. But anyone else including other dogs better not get near her food or water.


----------



## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> You don't know me, you don't know my dogs and you young man can talk after you have close to 30 years experience raising kids and dogs. .


Well, to be fair, you don't know any of us, either.

I, too, have had over 30 years experience with dogs. 

However, that means nothing, because for many of those 30 years I had no clue what I was doing. Just because you've been doing something for a long time does not mean you've been doing it well.


----------



## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> Wanna tell me again how I've never experienced a resource guarder?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I rescued her from dying of thirst in the desert. She slept in her water bowl for months. My family could take anything from her. But anyone else including other dogs better not get near her food or water.


From your earlier post:


> You don't make a dangerous resource guarder that is genetic.



Look, I don't know what you expect from me. I am not going to change my mind because you have not experienced the same thing I have after my working with many resource guarding dogs and questioning their owners about how they interacted with their dogs.

I have already said that I am not disagreeing with your experiences. I am not calling you a liar or something.

I have experiences of my own which drive my opinions. 

Keep doing what you are doing. As long as it works, you are doing the right thing for the right dog. When something different happens, you will probably do something different.


----------



## Lilie

shepherdmom said:


> You get respect from your dog by being the boss. Consistency IMO is the key.


I think this is where 'being the boss' came into the discussion.


----------



## Sunflowers

Lilie said:


> I think this is where 'being the boss' came into the discussion.


I am really confused now. :crazy:



shepherdmom said:


> You get respect from your dog by being the boss. Consistency IMO is the key.





shepherdmom said:


> How is putting your hand into a puppy's bowl and feeding him kibble out of your hand showing him who is boss? How is picking up a dangerous piece of small bone and saying "mine" showing him who is boss? That is not it at all.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

so many people on here with so many emotional states, you cannot read into words and just assume the tone.


----------



## David Winners

Lilie said:


> I think this is where 'being the boss' came into the discussion.


I don't have time to go back through all the threads and grab quotes LOL. Thanks 

There was a general direction of the thread that I disagreed with so I gave my opinion. I really wasn't singling anyone out, as everyone has different dogs and situations.


----------



## RocketDog

I am lucky that I've never owned a resource-guarder. I do have to take care of my sister's dog once in a while though, and she is one. I appreciate the dogs I have had after dealing with this one. Usually I get some cheese from the fridge and call her over, lead her outside, then return in to remove whatever I have to. She isn't as bad with her family as she is with 'outsiders'. Actually, me and my dad are the only ones who can deal with her. 

I should qualify that I've had my dogs (except for one, but that dog was so awesome it wouldn't have mattered anyway) since wee pups. I did do lots of trade-training, I never made it a big deal in terms of "GIVE ME THAT, IT'S MINE" type thing. Just trained them to be comfortable with me taking things away. The release command is perfect in my dog, but I rarely have to use it. With bones, it's usually 'All done'. I almost always practice a short heeling-eye contact routine with downs and recalls before the bone, while it's laying on his sheet, because, Man! There is nothing like that focus when he knows that bone is over there.  I don't know if I'm doing it 'right'. 

As for the in your face-- I've taught those bite prevention classes for years with the school district. Three different dogs. I don't let the kids get in the dog's face, but boy, they sure want to. It's just some sort of instinct in kids. I don't ever treat other dogs as affectionately as I treat my own, (based on the individual dog) but there are a few I know that I probably could. I was very careful with my dog now when he was a pup to make sure no one, including my kids, messed with him too much in terms of face area. I NEVER let their friends get anywhere near it, even though he doesn't seem to have an issue. I also don't allow strangers to squat down and pet him, and I monitor kids we meet. He has a natural affinity for kids though, and always has. 

My own dog likes to wake me up in the morning by coming to my side of the bed and sticking his cold, wet nose in my face and getting his giant tongue going to lick my face. I guess he doesn't have a problem with it, heh. When I get up though, and if I sit down, he comes over and sticks his head into my gut, or under my arm, like he's 'burying' it. When I start to stroke his sides, he then turns around and leans his butt into me. I know that one is an affectionate stance, but the head burying.... I've always wondered about this.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> Well, to be fair, you don't know any of us, either.
> 
> I, too, have had over 30 years experience with dogs.
> 
> However, that means nothing, because for many of those 30 years I had no clue what I was doing. Just because you've been doing something for a long time does not mean you've been doing it well.


If I didn't do it well do you think the local rescue would ask me back to help with their feral dogs? Do you think that my vet would say that I have the best behaved shepherds she has ever met? You may disagree with my methods and that's fine. There are lots of different training tools and every single dog is different on what works or what doesn't. But if your kids can't hug their dog or be near them when they are eating then you are doing something wrong! Kids shouldn't have to fear their dogs. Respect yes, fear no!


----------



## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> From your earlier post:
> 
> 
> 
> Look, I don't know what you expect from me. I am not going to change my mind because you have not experienced the same thing I have after my working with many resource guarding dogs and questioning their owners about how they interacted with their dogs.
> 
> I have already said that I am not disagreeing with your experiences. I am not calling you a liar or something.


Do borrow a phrase from the kids. Whatever. You do your thing, I'll do mine but don't go around telling the world my way is dangerous. Lots and lots of people do it. It doesn't "create" resource guarding dogs.


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## misslesleedavis1

@shepherdmom,

From what i am reading, i dont think anyone is thinking of you in a negative light, i think what they are saying is, if what you are doing works for you then power to you! but what works for one does not always work for another. Plus, its so impossible to read tone, you can put any spin on anything you would,like but it may not be what someone is truely trying to convey.


----------



## shepherdmom

You know what. I'm done. I'll keep raising my dogs my way and I will keep telling people how I do it if they ask. If you don't like it disagree but I'm sick and tired of trying to explain myself only to have people purposefully misunderstand.


----------



## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> Do borrow a phrase from the kids. Whatever. You do your thing, I'll do mine but don't go around telling the world my way is dangerous. Lots and lots of people do it. It doesn't "create" resource guarding dogs.


IME, it can. You can't change that. 

I wouldn't even argue this with you, because you obviously believe what you believe and I'm not going to change that, but there are many people reading this and I feel it is important for them to see what can happen.

Don't take my word for it. Read some books. I'm not making this up.

David Winners


----------



## shepherdmom

misslesleedavis1 said:


> @shepherdmom,
> 
> From what i am reading, i dont think anyone is thinking of you in a negative light, i think what they are saying is, if what you are doing works for you then power to you! but what works for one does not always work for another. Plus, its so impossible to read tone, you can put any spin on anything you would,like but it may not be what someone is truely trying to convey.


Thanks. :hugs: I know most people here are extremely nice but a few do seem to follow and attack no matter what thread I go to or what I say.


----------



## Lilie

David Winners said:


> There was a general direction of the thread that I disagreed with so I gave my opinion. I really wasn't singling anyone out, as everyone has different dogs and situations.


Since I've lost the plot of this thread....with your experiance, do you think a resource guarder is one in the same as a dog who bites due to a person being in their personal space? I don't mean as a golden rule, but do you think the two could be hand and hand?


----------



## Sunflowers

Can we please just go back to the discussion?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Sunflowers said:


> Can we please just go back to the discussion?


puffy lips from head smashes?


----------



## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> Don't take my word for it. Read some books. I'm not making this up.
> 
> David Winners


Sorry I said I was done. One last comment. 


This is^^^ what I'm talking about. I have read books. We can disagree all you want but treating me like I'm ignorant and uneducated just because I disagree. That IMO is not right.


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## Blanketback

Shepherdmom, it just seems like a huge contradiction when you say how much experience you have - then to turn around and say your way works so it's not dangerous. You're discounting all those years under your belt and the ability to read dogs that came from them. I know I might have been bitten last summer, when I saw a dog freeze and tense up after I put the dish down. Instead of pushing the issue, I took the dog's focus off his food and there was no problem. The hands-on experience you get from spending decades with dogs shouldn't be taken as a given!


----------



## katro

misslesleedavis1 said:


> puffy lips from head smashes?


Luckily, I have yet to have this happen. However, his head has smashed into my kneecap about a million times. Ouch!! :crazy:


----------



## Galathiel

I get it. Right fighting is hard work. When we give an opinion (based on our own anecdotal evidence) and someone has a differing opinion, it's quite common to want to come back and defend our stance. The thing is ... just because someone disagrees doesn't mean that they think we're wrong-headed, evil, bad .. they have just had differing experiences. Your experiences are valid ... so are theirs. 

I've had dogs for over 30 years. I've NEVER had a resource guarder .. ever. I could do anything I wanted .. take things away, move the food, whatever. However, I didn't bother doing it routinely because there was no need. However, the pup I have now has the signs of guarding behavior. He was raised the same as the rest of my dogs (all gotten as pups just like he was) and I have to really keep a close eye on him and his body language. He has tons of food and toy drive. He doesn't guard from me, but he guards from other dogs (puppies in his socialization class with a toy--I removed the toy and him from the situation), from the cat with his food bowl (he hasn't growled, but does the stand over and watches her like a hawk) and a few other instances with grown family members. 

Based on prior experience I could say I won't have it because I'd NEVER had it .. but I do now.


----------



## Sunflowers

My experience with a dog bite as a child when when I was about 6.

I was throwing bits of bread crust to my grandmother's dog. The dog lived in the back yard, was friendly, and had not been aggressive. I was having a good time, and so was the dog, until I thought I threw one too far away from where he was. 

I bent down to pick up the piece of bread and throw it closer to him. 

Big mistake. 

The dog, who now that I think of it, was probably a BC, rushed me and bit me hard on the upper thigh, before I could even move. 

When my grandmother ran out and saw what happened, she shrugged and said, "A dog is a dog," and went back inside. 

Our view on this does come from our experiences. I learned that once I gave a dog something, I need to let him have it.


----------



## Sunflowers

misslesleedavis1 said:


> puffy lips from head smashes?


:wild: That would be better, yes!


----------



## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> Sorry I said I was done. One last comment.
> 
> 
> This is^^^ what I'm talking about. I have read books. We can disagree all you want but treating me like I'm ignorant and uneducated just because I disagree. That IMO is not right.


I am saying this in the nicest tone possible: not every post is about you, directed to you, or critical of you.

Perhaps David meant to say that his opinion is shared by others, and it can be found in books. Not that you are " ignorant and uneducated just because you disagree."


----------



## David Winners

Lilie said:


> Since I've lost the plot of this thread....with your experiance, do you think a resource guarder is one in the same as a dog who bites due to a person being in their personal space? I don't mean as a golden rule, but do you think the two could be hand and hand?


I think they are separate. There are different motivations for the action IMO.

Warning! This is a generalization:
Resource guarding stems from wanting to possess an object. A dog reacting to proximity is usually fear based, sometimes the dog is offended and giving a warning.

Fear can manifest in both ways, but I think of them separately when evaluating a dog or developing a training plan because of the motivation involved. Go away, or I want this thing. 

David Winners


----------



## Sunflowers

What does everyone do when the dog growls in an attempt to resource guard an object?


----------



## Galathiel

Right or wrong someone can tell me (I'm sure they will). My pup growled at my son (age 23 who also feeds him his lunch daily) when he got too close to him and his food when I happened to be home. I walked over to him (he doesn't posture to me ever), grasped his collar and walked him away from his bowl. I had him sit and go through all the impulse control/obedience things I normally do before he eats. Put it back down and had my son get pieces of hot dog from the fridge and toss it in his bowl. He hasn't growled at him since.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Sunflowers said:


> What does everyone do when the dog growls in an attempt to resource guard an object?


I cant imagine what I would do but in my mind it would look like a scene from the avengers when the green angry man smashed thors brother into the ground. 
lol seriously though reality says I would walk away and post a thread about it, cue google..and hope someone has a fool proof idea on how to stop it.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Blanketback

Sunflowers said:


> What does everyone do when the dog growls in an attempt to resource guard an object?


For me, the dog not only loses the object but it also loses my company. It's very straightforward, the dog learns that this behavior is unacceptable. I don't try to punish the growl or make a fuss over the object. That's for objects. Food guarding is different, and if that's the problem then the dog eats in a secure area, with slow modification to the actual feedings.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blanketback said:


> Shepherdmom, it just seems like a huge contradiction when you say how much experience you have - then to turn around and say your way works so it's not dangerous. You're discounting all those years under your belt and the ability to read dogs that came from them. I know I might have been bitten last summer, when I saw a dog freeze and tense up after I put the dish down. Instead of pushing the issue, I took the dog's focus off his food and there was no problem. The hands-on experience you get from spending decades with dogs shouldn't be taken as a given!


I'm sore and cranky had another biopsy yesterday. So maybe I'm seeing condescending and superiority where it doesn't exist. If so I apologize. There are lots of ways to train dogs and mine works for me.


----------



## Blanketback

Aw, I'm sorry shepherdmom, and I hope you're ok. I just think it's very important to keep the conversation going for those that are only reading and I wonder what they're taking away from the discussion. I wouldn't want someone to get bitten and PTS their dog over something that could have been prevented by them doing something differently, and not challenging their dog. I'm just thinking about them - not trying to annoy you. Hugs!


----------



## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> maybe I'm seeing condescending and superiority where it doesn't exist. If so I apologize. .


That's OK, SM. I PMd you.


----------



## Lilie

David Winners said:


> Fear can manifest in both ways, but I think of them separately when evaluating a dog or developing a training plan because of the motivation involved. Go away, or I want this thing.
> 
> David Winners


Good information to chew on. So, let me take it one more step (and get free advice while I'm at it!).....

If you have a dog that has never showed any form of resource guarding. A dog who is normally friendly to everyone, doesn't have 'space' issues. But one day this dog decides he doesn't like a new individual. He shows this by ignoring him, not aggression. The handler is standing near the new person, playing fetch with a toy with said dog. The dog brings the toy to the handler and drops it, waiting for it to be thrown again. New person reaches down for toy (which is between the handlers feet) and dog 'tags' person, then sits and watches new person. (By tag I mean the dog didn't use it's teeth, but bumped him with his snout). 

Just in your general opinion - would this be a space issue, or a resource issue, or could it be both? I understood the tag to be a warning. But I couldn't figure out what the warning was for. Was it for the toy, or was it for the handler, or was it for space? Could it be all three?


----------



## shepherdmom

Blanketback said:


> Aw, I'm sorry shepherdmom, and I hope you're ok. I just think it's very important to keep the conversation going for those that are only reading and I wonder what they're taking away from the discussion. I wouldn't want someone to get bitten and PTS their dog over something that could have been prevented by them doing something differently, and not challenging their dog. I'm just thinking about them - not trying to annoy you. Hugs!


Thanks.  

The thing that worries me and I try to always emphasize it. When I put my hand into a dogs bowl and feed it, its a young puppy! When I put my face next to theirs and cuddle and hug the dog its a young puppy! When I take an object away and say no MINE its a young puppy chewing on something he shouldn't. If I train a puppy correctly then when he is an adult it won't be an issue. 

An adult or even an older puppy rescue dog has to be treated completely differently. 

Just want to clarify something else. When I say I'm the boss, I mean my house, my rules. I don't mean I alpha roll my dogs kind of boss. So that was my bad! I should have explained it differently.


----------



## Sunflowers

shepherdmom said:


> The thing that worries me and I try to always emphasize it. When I put my hand into a dogs bowl and feed it, its a young puppy! When I put my face next to theirs and cuddle and hug the dog its a young puppy! When I take an object away and say no MINE its a young puppy chewing on something he shouldn't. If I train a puppy correctly then when he is an adult it won't be an issue.
> 
> An adult or even an older puppy rescue dog has to be treated completely differently.


But sometimes dogs behave differently when they turn into adults. 
I do believe that temperament has a lot to do with it. 

I think training when they are puppies is a good start but training isn't something that you just do when they are puppies, and then never have to worry about a thing. 
Training is ongoing.


----------



## middleofnowhere

I'm reading "Inside of a Dog". What does that have to do with the thread? Well, it's given me a much better appreciation of how dogs perceive the world. One thing that sticks out is that dogs with longer snouts (Goldens, Labs, GSDs) due to their physiology, have difficulty seeing what is directly in front of them. There's a lot more that figures in to why many/most/all are not thrilled with being hugged/kissed, too. 
I know that the base discussion here is how to get around the dogs discomfort in these situations or whether it should be done. What I'm adding (I only glanced through the first page of this 14 page thread - sorry Selzer) is that understanding a dog's physical persception may help.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

I am by no means a trainer or behaviorist. I can only share my experience with Natty Boh. He was between 4 and 6 months old, when I had him transported to me from a southern shelter. He is not a GSD. He is mix - hound, JRT, Brittany, whatever. Boh came to be with pretty serious resource guarding issues - food, toys, space and even his body. Maybe some of you wouldn't call all of those things "resource" guarding, but I handled all the issues the same. I hand fed, traded for higher value treats and toys, and worked on obedience. I worked to desensitize him to the things he did not like. If he growled on the couch, or bed, his butt was quickly on the floor. I kept him on a leash, while we worked on changing the behavior. He never liked to be picked up, or "man handled." I respected his thresholds, but worked to have him allow more handling. Some times a smaller dog needs to be lifted - onto the table at the vet, into the car, etc. 

A year later and Boh is a different dog. He seems to understand that no one is going to take his things. He no longer growls over food or toys. He sometimes needs to be reminded that he does not own the bed or couch. There was a time he would have bitten my adult kids - not breaking the skin, but hard enough to bruise. That no longer happens. He has never bitten me.

As far a being in the dogs face.....maybe I have always been lucky. Maybe it is because we are such affectionate people, that the dogs quickly adjust and accept it. My dogs have always given and accepted affection. My GSD was a 2 year old shelter dog, when she came to live with us. My kids were 2, 6, and 10. She adored the kids. She was always in their faces giving them kisses. She treated the two year old like he was her puppy. Same with my Samoyed. It was hard to get a picture of these two dogs, with the kids. The dogs could not resist kissing the kids - even for a picture.

Fast forward, Natty Boh is just as affectionate as the others. He even adores kids, though I no longer have any little ones. I guess I don't have any real answers, but I have never had a dog that I feared would bite anyone in the face. I can't even imagine that happening.


----------



## Blanketback

I did add food of higher value to my puppy's food dish while he was eating, just so that he'd think my hand coming to his bowl meant wonderful things would happen. But that started a whole other issue: why eat kibble when you can wait for the magic hand to drop cheese and chicken? Lol, he'd give me those adorable and imploring looks, asking me why I was feeding him crap when we both knew there was better stuff in the fridge. You can't win.


----------



## Sunflowers

middleofnowhere said:


> I'm reading "Inside of a Dog". What does that have to do with the thread? Well, it's given me a much better appreciation of how dogs perceive the world. One thing that sticks out is that dogs with longer snouts (Goldens, Labs, GSDs) due to their physiology, have difficulty seeing what is directly in front of them. There's a lot more that figures in to why many/most/all are not thrilled with being hugged/kissed, too.
> I know that the base discussion here is how to get around the dogs discomfort in these situations or whether it should be done. What I'm adding (I only glanced through the first page of this 14 page thread - sorry Selzer) is that understanding a dog's physical persception may help.


Good to know. :thumbup:

Reading McConnels' The Other End of the Leash was eye-opening, as well. 
Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs eBook: Patricia McConnell Phd: Kindle Store

I was talking with a friend of mine the other day and said that vets should have some info to pass out to owners, even a pamphlet such as these, for every single owner who walks in. 
The Pawse: Dog Body Language and DINOS posters

They are the one who can reach the most pet owners, and most have no idea how to interpret dog body language and facial expressions, especially since theirs is in many cases the opposite of our own.


----------



## brembo

McConnell books are always a good read.


----------



## selzer

I've read every post. I'm not sure if I am any further along. 

It seems like some of us DO train our dogs (basic obedience, not necessarily resource management) and have a relationship with them from the get-go, but the dogs either have no tendency toward resource guarding or personal space problems, OR they do not have them with US, their main and perhaps only care-giver. 

I have to expect that my dogs, all but one of whom, I wiped off the birth fluid from, saw me as a huge constant when they first opened their eyes, and the idea of guarding food or personal space from me never entered into their concrete skulls. Digging around in their food bowls would make absolutely no difference whatsoever. It would not make them food aggressive, it would not make them less food aggressive. They all knew me when I could squash them like a bug if I wanted to, and they may still perceive me as being this omniscient, omnipotent provider of all that is wonderful, and at the same time, She Who Must Be Obeyed. 

Of the complaints from puppy owners, resource guarding has not been mentioned by any of them, so, it is also possible that genetically, this is not one of the problems the line carries. 

I have had a dog out there, that had personal space problems though. In the litter this dog was one of the two outliers. Most of the litter were very middle of the road, this guy scored very independent. The dog did not like to be hugged or have people in his face. I am guessing that maybe this is a personality trait that can be recognized as early as 7 weeks, and could possibly help breeders in the selection process. 

It is not necessarily a character flaw, as some of the features you will want in a working dog, might be this independent nature. So to wipe out this trait completely from the gene pool might wipe out other traits that are needed. But recognizing pups who will be more likely to have these problems, early, might make for either different socialization for such puppies or different placement.

If buyers are buying a pup with a certain type of personality, then they might be able to cater the dog's early socialization to avoid problems down the line, maybe.


----------



## brembo

Food is one of the big three for dogs, it's foremost in their minds almost all the time. I guess the idea of "if I can mess with their food all is good to go" is where the removing food thing came from. 

I baseline it, and live with the results, I see no need to push an animal in regards to such a strong.....desire/drive/primal instinct? Once the food is down and I have given the break command the FOOD IS HIS. I thump his chest and say "good boy" and go on about my chores. If I forget to thump him he will quit eating and give me the stink-eye too, I strive for a routine at dinner time. I'm pretty sure I could call him off his food too, but see no reason to test that idea.


----------



## Blanketback

My last puppy hated to be held, picked up, or cuddled. I never gave it a second thought, and I didn't pester him in that way. I still cleaned his ears and clipped his nails, but I didn't squish and squeeze him and try to bond in a way that he clearly didn't enjoy. This puppy now is a cuddle bug, so he gets this kind of attention because he likes it. I don't have a problem with my dogs deciding how much attention they want or get, or how they get it. They're part of my life and they deserve to have their feelings acknowledged.


----------



## Chip18

David Winners said:


> There was a general direction of the thread that I disagreed with so I gave my opinion. I really wasn't singling anyone out, as everyone has different dogs and situations.


 It was and while my remark was kinda tongue in cheek. ...A lot of us have dealt with basically sound dogs that had some issues that needed to be dealt with. Most of us(not all of course) were working with sound dogs, (puppies) that we purchased or  rescue dogs that didn't carry a lot of baggage.

Yep I did the hand in bowl thing with my "puppies" no problem. Closes I came to an issue was my rescue GSD, he was "grabby" about treats! 

He had no "real" issues I worked with him problem solved. But after being here awhile, I have actually learned about what a sound dog is.

I got lucky in part because I "did" handle him properly. People aggression "issues" but today I realize I'm not "The Dog Whisper" I was working with a sound dog "not" a rescue with baggage!

I had issues with Rocky taking treats, he was a grabber but I was a foster maybe his second? The first foster either, never saw it, didn't care or was just flat scared of it? Don't know? 

Peoples experiences are different the dogs are different . What is important is that people understand the dog they are dealing with some dogs are easier to deal with than others and a good dog with an average owner can make all but the totally clueless look good!

I've never dealt with a "real" resource guarder so my hand in bowel experiences are pretty irrelevant. But I'd much rather find out about it on a board than find out...first hand!


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## misslesleedavis1

Lol @chip!!!
Check your last paragraph lol  its hilarious! ! Spelling error !! 

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## Chip18

misslesleedavis1 said:


> puffy lips from head smashes?


Boxer dogies punch you in the face..just saying.


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## ZoeD1217

Hahaha!!! Bowel...lol

I've been following this post. Learned a lot...rolled my eyes a little 
I was bit 3 times as a kid! Nothing hospital worthy just a few holes in my hand. 
Our vet told us to be real hands on with Zoe and to take her food and what not. I only really touch her food to add yummies. I have let all my kids hand feed her...Just not straight from her bowl. I give them a handful of food. I do take toys and put them and rotate. I don't generally takes bones unless I'm relocating them from carpet to the towel. Zoe is still a pup...I don't know at what age I need to be aware of these kinds of things. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

selzer said:


> I've read every post. I'm not sure if I am any further along.
> 
> It seems like some of us DO train our dogs (basic obedience, not necessarily resource management) and have a relationship with them from the get-go, but the dogs either have no tendency toward resource guarding or personal space problems, OR they do not have them with US, their main and perhaps only care-giver.
> 
> I have to expect that my dogs, all but one of whom, I wiped off the birth fluid from, saw me as a huge constant when they first opened their eyes, and the idea of guarding food or personal space from me never entered into their concrete skulls. Digging around in their food bowls would make absolutely no difference whatsoever. It would not make them food aggressive, it would not make them less food aggressive. They all knew me when I could squash them like a bug if I wanted to, and they may still perceive me as being this omniscient, omnipotent provider of all that is wonderful, and at the same time, She Who Must Be Obeyed.
> 
> Of the complaints from puppy owners, resource guarding has not been mentioned by any of them, so, it is also possible that genetically, this is not one of the problems the line carries.
> 
> *I have had a dog out there, that had personal space problems though. In the litter this dog was one of the two outliers. Most of the litter were very middle of the road, this guy scored very independent. The dog did not like to be hugged or have people in his face. I am guessing that maybe this is a personality trait that can be recognized as early as 7 weeks, and could possibly help breeders in the selection process. *
> 
> It is not necessarily a character flaw, as some of the features you will want in a working dog, might be this independent nature. So to wipe out this trait completely from the gene pool might wipe out other traits that are needed. But recognizing pups who will be more likely to have these problems, early, might make for either different socialization for such puppies or different placement.
> 
> If buyers are buying a pup with a certain type of personality, then they might be able to cater the dog's early socialization to avoid problems down the line, maybe.


You recognized this in that pup. I have no doubt you found him the right home. The right home would not have been one with children who wanted to hug and kiss the dog. Every dog is different. I do think the right dog needs to be in the right home. If it isn't a good fit, it isn't - It's like hammering the square peg into the round hole. 

I had an adult springer spaniel in my home for less than 24 hours. She hated kids. Bit my 6 year old and growled in my 2 year olds' face. (the dog put her face into my child's space.) She went to an adult home, where she bit her new owner several times. He loved her in spite of herself.

I guess there aren't any easy answers, but in my limited experience, most animals will give a kid a puppy pass. I've seen a donkey who will dump an adult, but will happily carry a child or allow a kid to wrap his arms around its' face. I have seen dogs be very forgiving of having a child accidentally step on its' paw or tail. I have a problem with a "family" dog, who would bite a family member in the face for any reason.


----------



## Chip18

Galathiel said:


> Right or wrong someone can tell me (I'm sure they will). My pup growled at my son (age 23 who also feeds him his lunch daily) when he got too close to him and his food when I happened to be home. I walked over to him (he doesn't posture to me ever), grasped his collar and walked him away from his bowl. I had him sit and go through all the impulse control/obedience things I normally do before he eats. Put it back down and had my son get pieces of hot dog from the fridge and toss it in his bowl. He hasn't growled at him since.


To "me" it sounds like you handled it well. You addressed it! I take dogs growling at people seriously.You let him know that, that type behaviour is not acceptable!

Most of the times that should be enough...sometimes it's not. Depends on the dog.


----------



## Chip18

Sunflowers said:


> What does everyone do when the dog growls in an attempt to resource guard an object?


No real advise but your doing what I do now. OK my dog has an issue how do I deal with it? Get ideas and evaluate what will work for you and your dog.


----------



## Chip18

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sore and cranky had another biopsy yesterday. So maybe I'm seeing condescending and superiority where it doesn't exist. If so I apologize. There are lots of ways to train dogs and mine works for me.


:hug:


----------



## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> Aw, I'm sorry shepherdmom, and I hope you're ok. I just think it's very important to keep the conversation going for those that are only reading and I wonder what they're taking away from the discussion. I wouldn't want someone to get bitten and PTS their dog over something that could have been prevented by them doing something differently, and not challenging their dog. I'm just thinking about them - not trying to annoy you. Hugs!


Well we are.. different people have different takes and handle somethings differently. 

If folks with different views get ticked off and leave, we all lose.


----------



## selzer

Stevenzachsmom said:


> You recognized this in that pup. I have no doubt you found him the right home. The right home would not have been one with children who wanted to hug and kiss the dog. Every dog is different. I do think the right dog needs to be in the right home. If it isn't a good fit, it isn't - It's like hammering the square peg into the round hole.
> 
> I had an adult springer spaniel in my home for less than 24 hours. She hated kids. Bit my 6 year old and growled in my 2 year olds' face. (the dog put her face into my child's space.) She went to an adult home, where she bit her new owner several times. He loved her in spite of herself.
> 
> I guess there aren't any easy answers, but in my limited experience, most animals will give a kid a puppy pass. I've seen a donkey who will dump an adult, but will happily carry a child or allow a kid to wrap his arms around its' face. I have seen dogs be very forgiving of having a child accidentally step on its' paw or tail. I have a problem with a "family" dog, who would bite a family member in the face for any reason.



He went to a professional dog handler whose breed wasn't GSDs, and no children in the home. However, I did not think his independent nature would give him personal space issues. And the wife in the home, it was her first experience with living with a dog, and well, she would have preferred a dog that was more affectionate. 

The other outlier was not the same as this pup, it was on the other side of the spectrum, and chosen by an obedience trainer, who actually evaluated the litter for me -- you can't do the test yourself as it skews the results if the dog knows the evaluator. She told me that every dog she has gotten has actually tested that way. She picked the dog weeks before, but it was the dog she wanted. She is doing fine in the home so it is a match.


----------



## Chip18

Sunflowers said:


> Good to know. :thumbup:
> 
> Reading McConnels' The Other End of the Leash was eye-opening, as well.
> Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs eBook: Patricia McConnell Phd: Kindle Store
> 
> I was talking with a friend of mine the other day and said that vets should have some info to pass out to owners, even a pamphlet such as these, for every single owner who walks in.
> The Pawse: Dog Body Language and DINOS posters
> 
> They are the one who can reach the most pet owners, and most have no idea how to interpret dog body language and facial expressions, especially since theirs is in many cases the opposite of our own.


Interesting insight. I came here from BullMastiff/Pitts and Boxers (puppies). Those guys loved people and were pretty much always in someones face, encouraged by company for the most part. I never gave it thought.

My GSD whole nuther world "I" had to change my thinking and my training with him!


----------



## Lilie

Chip18 said:


> I've never dealt with a "real" resource guarder so *my hand in bowel* *experiences* are pretty irrelevant. But I'd much rather find out about it on a board than find out...first hand!


All of my dogs are pretty stable. But I don't think I'd push my luck with the whole hand in bowel experience. That might be a little too close for me.


----------



## Sunflowers

Who knows, may be a new way of teaching pooping on command :crazy:


----------



## Chip18

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lol @chip!!!
> Check your last paragraph lol  its hilarious! ! Spelling error !!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Me and my laptop have "issues" grammar check clicking off is one and the freaking mouse! See it now ops!


----------



## Chip18

Lilie said:


> All of my dogs are pretty stable. But I don't think I'd push my luck with the whole hand in bowel experience. That might be a little too close for me.


Ok, Ok.:blush:


----------



## Nigel

Chip18 said:


> Ok, Ok.:blush:


Lol, Dr Pol is that you? Just joking, auto correct can be a pita!


----------



## selzer

Sunflowers said:


> Who knows, may be a new way of teaching pooping on command :crazy:


Please, not another discussion about the match in the butt !
:wild:


----------



## ZoeD1217

This comment reminded me of a "selfie fail" with Zoe 



She climbed in my lap being sweet on me and in the split second it took me to capture the memory THAT happened!



misslesleedavis1 said:


> I think its important for people to know they are rolling the dice with rescue dogs by doing the cute selfie with fido glued to the side of there face, i would never ever stick my face in the face of a dog i have not totally completely bonded with.


----------



## Chip18

Well the tone has certainly turned!


----------



## Sunflowers

ZoeD1217 said:


> This comment reminded me of a "selfie fail" with Zoe
> 
> 
> 
> She climbed in my lap being sweet on me and in the split second it took me to capture the memory THAT happened!


:rofl:
That made me laugh out loud!
Gotta love German Shepherd puppies!

Speaking of bowel: anyone know how to train a dog not to poop on the treadmill?


----------



## selzer

ZoeD1217 said:


> This comment reminded me of a "selfie fail" with Zoe
> 
> 
> 
> She climbed in my lap being sweet on me and in the split second it took me to capture the memory THAT happened!


Only what is depicted in this photo is the pre-cursor of a beautiful relationship! 

Good Puppy!!!:wub:


----------



## Sunflowers

selzer said:


> Please, not another discussion about the match in the butt !
> :wild:


I think I'd rather discuss that than the recommendation on another thread to trim a German Shepherd's tail by using a cigarette lighter!


----------



## selzer

Sunflowers said:


> I think I'd rather discuss that than the recommendation on another thread to trim a German Shepherd's tail by using a cigarette lighter!


I did not see that. How insane!


----------



## selzer

Sunflowers said:


> I think I'd rather discuss that than the recommendation on another thread to trim a German Shepherd's tail by using a cigarette lighter!


Maybe intelligent dogs _should _have a thing about their personal space!


----------



## Saphire

Going back to food issues....I am curious if dogs being fed raw would be more difficult to work with if resource guarding or to expand, more protective of their food? What could you drop in bowl that would be of higher value?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Saphire said:


> Going back to food issues....I am curious if dogs being fed raw would be more difficult to work with if resource guarding or to expand, more protective of their food? What could you drop in bowl that would be of higher value?


Tyson dives into his meat chunks like a absolute maniac, and some chunks gets tossed out of his bowl, i never have had an issue with picking the meat chunk up and plopping it back in,


----------



## Sunflowers

Saphire said:


> Going back to food issues....I am curious if dogs being fed raw would be more difficult to work with if resource guarding or to expand, more protective of their food? What could you drop in bowl that would be of higher value?


I use cooked meat


----------



## Sunflowers

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Tyson dives into his meat chunks like a absolute maniac, and some chunks gets tossed out of his bowl, i never have had an issue with picking the meat chunk up and plopping it back in,


And where is our video of this?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Sunflowers said:


> And where is our video of this?


seriously!!! lol


----------



## Msmaria

All 3 of my dogs are usually fed kibble but sometimes I cut up steak or chicken, give them raw bones and have never had a problem taking raw food or kibble out of their bowl. Like others here I have been in the dark much to long about this problem and never really gave it thoughts on whether to play with their food or leave them alone. Therefore I usually don't bother them , I just have always stood there to make sure that they don't bother each other and if food gets tossed out of the bowl or as in canned food , stuck, I reach in to replace it or cut it up.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

David Winners said:


> I just read the whole thread, and there is a commonality among all the posters that get in their dogs faces and food bowls. They have never had a problem with it.
> 
> You don't need to address possessiveness in a dog if it isn't there. If the dog doesn't care in the first place, all the kissing, hugging, food stealing and toy taking isn't going to matter. You all have confidence that your methods are the best because you haven't had to deal with a dog that breaks your hand when you reach for his food.


:thumbup: I want to take this a step further - when you get a brand new puppy you have no idea if it's going to have possessive or guarding tendencies if you start messing with them while they eat and taking away their bones. So isn't it better to be pro-active, to build trust by being fair from the very beginning? 

I train my dogs from the start that giving things up is good. We make a game out of it, using a variety of toys, to the point where they start looking for things to bring me to trade for a treat. Admittedly, that does sometimes backfire, lol! Halo would bring us eyeglasses, TV remotes, kitchen knives, etc., in addition to toys and bones. Bad dog! :rofl: To this day, she'll bring me a bone to hold for her while she chews it, or an Orbee ball to take away from her and give back. She doesn't expect me to throw it for her, she just seems to enjoy the give and take interaction before laying down to chomp obsessively on Orbee for awhile. 

Did these trading games make my possessive dogs learn to trust me and stop their resource guarding tendencies? I have no idea, because who know how they would have behaved if I hadn't done all that work from a young age. But it doesn't really matter to me if I averted a potentially serious issue or if the dogs I've had would have been fine if I hadn't done what I routinely do. Either way, I've never had a resource guarding issue and my dogs trust me. They know that once I give them something, it's theirs and I'm not going to suddenly yank it away for no reason. But that does NOT mean that if they have something they're not supposed to have I'm not 100% able to grab them and pry their jaws open, if necessary, to get it back, because I can and have.


----------



## David Taggart

Normally I don't go to see people with their doggy problem, but sometimes the situation requires. A month ago, in a midweek, I had a call from a lady who was ready to pay for my travel and whatever requires concerned about agressive behaviour of her male towards a small dog of her new neighbours. When I came, I was amazed, surprised, I don't know, or enjoyed in a professional sense every minute of my visit.
Many people and many trainers do not know how many owners live absolutely harmoneously with dominant dogs. By the following description someone of you may find the situation simply appaling.
It happened to be a family of four - a mid-aged husband, a bit younger wife, a daughter of 3 years old and a huge black German Shepherd male. When I came in there wasn't any barks, the dog didn't bother to get up from his personal couch, just yawned and turned his head away from me. The sitting room was small, and I asked if that is a room the family rests at TV in the evening. The lady said "Yes, because, you see, Jack is so big", the family a sort of enjoy themselves in a Buddha position on a soft carpet. When the husband leaves bedroom at night you know what for, the dog moves from the couch onto the couple's bed next to the wife, and the husband pulls another set of bedclothes to sleep on the dog's couch. She told me that and giggled. I asked about the dog's meals and food, she said it's time to feed him, invited me to the kitchen and suggested a drink. The dog, as he knew, heavily followed us. Then I saw a daughter, who just got up, and was feeling sleepy then, a tiny, very slim little girl. The dog was gobbling out of a huge bowl, growling loudly while he ate, and the little girl was crouching in front of him. I asked the mother if she's not afraid to let her daughter so close to the dog. The answer came from the daughter: "Jack doesn't like me too close, he likes me just watching". The next picture I saw of the dog with the child - dog on the carpet in the front room and the girl sitting on the top of him and scratching, and massaging, and grooming him, the dog moves and the girl has to sit on him again. I suggested to take him out to see what is there with that dog of their neighbours. The girl shouted "Jack, walky!", the huge male jumped up and got very agitated. When we went out the lead was in the girl's hand (?!) which she lost immediately, the dog rushed to the next door on the left and started to bark, trying to push his nose through the post slot. The whole thing seemed amused the girl tremendously, the woman was smiling and saying what a good friends they are, Jack and Linda, thanks God, they were made for each other. The neighbours weren't there, no sound of their dog, and we decided to take a walk in the park. The lead was in the hands of the 3 years old, but Jack looked back every time the lead streched, it seemed he knew lead manners well. I asked who was the trainer and the woman pointed at the girl (?!). I turned completely silent after that. All people swiftly gave way to a child with a big dog swagging side to side for the next pee, one man, who moved onto us, obliviously tried to ignore them had to jump onto a grass patch, sideways, because Jack growled at him in protection of his little companion. And it was like that until we reached the park and I left for the station.
The lady didn't give me any money for my travel, and I wouldn't have asked for. I was payed aplenty with experience, it still feeds my brain. I hope, this story will help you to answer your question about "space". Well, it was very uncivilized towards neighbours and pedestrians, but on overall, it depends on you, how generous you are about your personal space, because that British family have a very small semidetached, a tiny garden, still, they live happily with the monster whom they serve with love and devote their time.


----------



## David Winners

Saphire said:


> Going back to food issues....I am curious if dogs being fed raw would be more difficult to work with if resource guarding or to expand, more protective of their food? What could you drop in bowl that would be of higher value?


Instead of adding to the bowl, I will hold the food and let the dog eat it out of my hand. Drumsticks work great 

David Winners


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## boomer11

only a portion of a raw fed meal is bone. instead of adding high value things to the bowl you can just feed a few pieces of meat or kibble and when the dog finishes you add a few more pieces. the point is the dog sees that good things come from you.


----------



## Sunflowers

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I train my dogs from the start that giving things up is good. We make a game out of it, using a variety of toys, to the point where they start looking for things to bring me to trade for a treat. Admittedly, that does sometimes backfire, lol! Halo would bring us ..., kitchen knives


Just in case anyone missed it. :wild:


----------



## Saphire

Sunflowers said:


> Just in case anyone missed it. :wild:


This is what happens when you take food away from you dog!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Sunflowers said:


> Just in case anyone missed it. :wild:



She's a very bad dog, lol. :help:


----------



## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> Just in case anyone missed it. :wild:


haha.... That dog can have whatever she wants. 

Tasha say's who wants food from a bowl or from nasty old fingers. This is how I want my meals served. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=704355739596052


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## Sitz&Platz

Dexter is my third dog so far, and I'm not an expert. However, I am able to hug, kiss and handle all of my dogs whichever way I want without issues. I can take toys away any time and handle their food while they're eating. That doesn't mean that I terrorize them while they eat, but every once in a while I would walk by and pet them while they're eating or add food to the bowl. 

I hand fed all of my pups in the beginning, which backfired with Dexter. At one point he decided that he would only eat if I hand fed him, so I stopped.  You live and learn. I trust my dogs 100% and vice versa, thus they pretty much allow me to do anything. Dexter likes to be very close to me and snuggle. That's just his personality. 

However, I'm a responsible dog owner and I don't want other people to replicate what I do and I keep a close eye on all interactions and reactions, even though my dogs are great with all people. 

I had an incident similar to Seltzer's where I was paying at the petstore and didn't notice a young girl that had walked up to Dexter and hugged him. When I turned around he was busy licking her face. I explained to the mother that she shouldn't let her daughter walk up to random dogs to kiss and hug them, but she basically just said why, your dog is friendly. Sigh, it's people I can't deal with sometimes.....


----------



## shepherdmom

Back to the taking crackers out of your mouth.....

This is french frys, but close enough. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=704397772925182

Or how about this one. Our adult rescue. 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=704397776258515


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## misslesleedavis1

shepherdmom said:


> Back to the taking crackers out of your mouth.....
> 
> This is french frys, but close enough.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=704397772925182
> 
> Or how about this one. Our adult rescue.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=704397776258515




German Shepherds AKA snack hounds.


----------



## shepherdmom

Did my links work ok? This is the first time I've tried posting video.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

shepherdmom said:


> did my links work ok? This is the first time i've tried posting video.


yes!!!


----------



## David Taggart

> taking crackers out of your mouth


That is the way to tell your dog who he is - a little puppy, belongs to "omega group" in the pack. I do mouthfeeding time to time and I always did. Actually works the best if you want to tell your dog that your cat is an equal pack member - put a cat on the table and mouthfeedfeed them both. And makes you to care about your dog/cat breath.


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## Saphire

Not a chance in %ell I want my dogs mouth on mine after licking his penis, testicles and anus!! 

Gross!

I am not a dog or my dogs mother so I see no relevance to "mouth feeding".


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> Not a chance in %ell I want my dogs mouth on mine after licking his penis, testicles and anus!!
> 
> Gross!
> 
> I am not a dog or my dogs mother so I see no relevance to "mouth feeding".


The dogs come to you... they learn good things come from being close to face.


----------



## Saphire

So....to teach your dog that your face is a good thing we should mouthfeed our dogs.

I think I will bow out of this one.


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> So....to teach your dog that your face is a good thing we should mouthfeed our dogs.
> 
> I think I will bow out of this one.


Ok  

Maybe someone else will answer......

If you don't like how I do it. How do you teach your dogs to be bomb proof around people and kids? Everyone knows little kids dart about and will hug in an instant. You can try to teach kids to be responsible around dogs but ultimately if the kid doesn't listen and the dog bites, the dog will pay the price. 

The knife thing is cute but don't think that trick would work to well in a kid home.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I think with dogs and kids you can only teach so much, its natural some dogs are okay others arnt. Like shiggies, street dog, loves a good hug from anyone willing to give one up, im willing to bet since she was found eating garbage and half dead she did not have a happy happy social situation, but I have been preoccupied in petsmart only to turn around and see a toddler with her hand in shiggies mouth. No problems, no weirdness, I would not expect the same thing from dexter though who has the happy go lucky social life, he would be so nervous and freaked out by that, 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Bequavious

Ok wow this forum got really long, but I was interested in the original topic. I think in regards to the "people in your dog's face" thing, there are rules and then there is knowledge. Rules are what people teach to kids in bite prevention classes: don't run straight up to the dog, don't get in the dog's face, don't hover over the dog, don't make too much eye contact, etc. These are all really good things to know that will keep you safe, especially when approaching a strange dog.

However, with your own dogs you probably have a little more knowledge about them and such a cautious approach isn't necessary. I know when my dog is uncomfortable, and I know when she is comfortable. Based on past experiences, she loves people, cuddles, and kisses, but I'm also not going to take that for granted and not pay attention to her comfort level, especially in new situations or with new people.

As to your dog growling, I am really interested to hear more people's experiences with this. I think how you react in these situations is really important because while you obviously don't want to become subject to your dog or "let him get away with it," growling is also a really important form of communication that I appreciate. I would never want to punish my dog for growling because that wouldn't solve the emotional state that caused the growl, but it might teach the dog to skip that particular warning signal and start with a bite next time.


----------



## Chip18

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I think with dogs and kids you can only teach so much, its natural some dogs are okay others arnt. Like shiggies, street dog, loves a good hug from anyone willing to give one up, im willing to bet since she was found eating garbage and half dead she did not have a happy happy social situation, but I have been preoccupied in petsmart only to turn around and see a toddler with her hand in shiggies mouth. No problems, no weirdness, I would not expect the same thing from dexter though who has the happy go lucky social life, he would be so nervous and freaked out by that,
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I tend to think and I am and speaking of sound stable dogs without emontional issues. People who own GSD's or (Dogs in general) benefit from having a dog without personal space issues.

Never did the cracker thing myself but Rocky was grabby with treats before I worked with him. The cracker thing and the kisses and hugs is I believe very beneficial to people who have dogs that don't live with kids! It's a hidden benefit for idiot Petco parents! 

All that stuff actually (crackers,hugging etc) actually conditions the dog to humans beings,in it's space. 

A stable dog might not like being grabbed by a kid, but being handled is not something unique or unusual (for a dog use to being handled by his people)...such dogs take time to think and evaluate a given situation instead of instantly striking. 

I don't live with kids and kids have petted my dog without issue (never been grabbed by a kid though!)

So I guess ironically enough...I see what those idiot Petco Parents are saying " what's the problem?? He's trained isn't he??


----------



## Sunflowers

Bequavious said:


> .
> 
> As to your dog growling, I am really interested to hear more people's experiences with this. I think how you react in these situations is really important because while you obviously don't want to become subject to your dog or "let him get away with it," growling is also a really important form of communication that I appreciate. I would never want to punish my dog for growling because that wouldn't solve the emotional state that caused the growl, but it might teach the dog to skip that particular warning signal and start with a bite next time.


This is exactly why I asked this, because I think the same way. 

Maybe a new thread with just this question would be in order.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sunflowers said:


> This is exactly why I asked this, because I think the same way.
> 
> Maybe a new thread with just this question would be in order.


I would like to see the answers to this as well. And how people handle puppy growling vrs adult growling.


----------



## Chip18

gsdsar said:


> Now for John Q. Public. This is where I start getting wishy washy. I, personally would not knowingly take a dog to a public place without being sure of their response. But, to be sure if their response, you have to take them. So I generally pick smaller events, or go in knowing that I may have to leave if it proves overwhelming to my dog.


Yep did that. My guy flat did not like people! Did not know if he had any past bad experiences but something was off. (low growl greeted out first guest I used a muzzle (fabric muzzle) and instituted a "No you can't touch way dog policy" after awhile no more muzzle, Still no touch for a bit more time. Then when I could read him and knew what he looked like when he was calm, I finally allowed people to touch him...no problem.

He learned what normal interactions look like. People safe dog, kid safe dog today..no dog parks for the record.


----------



## Chip18

David Winners said:


> You don't need to address possessiveness in a dog if it isn't there. If the dog doesn't care in the first place, all the kissing, hugging, food stealing and toy taking isn't going to matter.





shepherdmom said:


> The dogs come to you... they learn good things come from being close to face.


If it helps, I just tested both theories! Rocky has never been "mouth fed" so I grabbed a hot dog put it in my teeth and let him take. Yep, I got a dog with no problems and yep he thought it was pretty cool!

He looked around on the floor for a minuet and then looked up! Oh cool he thought and took the hotdog very gentle from me!

Added note...he has wobblers, sooo that made it a little exciting as he steadied his head to home in!


----------



## Chip18

Sunflowers said:


> This is exactly why I asked this, because I think the same way.
> 
> Maybe a new thread with just this question would be in order.





shepherdmom said:


> I would like to see the answers to this as well. And how people handle puppy growling vrs adult growling.


Done! 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...owl-hey-we-got-problem-growl.html#post5113306


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## shepherdmom

Chip18 said:


> If it helps, I just tested both theories! Rocky has never been "mouth fed" so I grabbed a hot dog put it in my teeth and let him take. Yep, I got a dog with no problems and yep he thought it was pretty cool!
> 
> He looked around on the floor for a minuet and then looked up! Oh cool he thought and took the hotdog very gentle from me!
> 
> Added note...he has wobblers, sooo that made it a little exciting as he steadied his head to home in!


dang Chip you were not supposed to try that yourself. I'm going to pull those video's down. That's a great way to get hurt with an adult dog you haven't trained to do that!


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## David Winners

Sorry for the late reply. I'm playing catch up. Been a busy couple of days / nights.

It is hard to say without seeing the dog before and after. Did the dog move to block the object after? Did the dog move to block you after? How was the dog with the person away from the ball?




Lilie said:


> Good information to chew on. So, let me take it one more step (and get free advice while I'm at it!).....
> 
> If you have a dog that has never showed any form of resource guarding. A dog who is normally friendly to everyone, doesn't have 'space' issues. But one day this dog decides he doesn't like a new individual. He shows this by ignoring him, not aggression. The handler is standing near the new person, playing fetch with a toy with said dog. The dog brings the toy to the handler and drops it, waiting for it to be thrown again. New person reaches down for toy (which is between the handlers feet) and dog 'tags' person, then sits and watches new person. (By tag I mean the dog didn't use it's teeth, but bumped him with his snout).
> 
> Just in your general opinion - would this be a space issue, or a resource issue, or could it be both? I understood the tag to be a warning. But I couldn't figure out what the warning was for. Was it for the toy, or was it for the handler, or was it for space? Could it be all three?


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## David Winners

Responses in BLUE




Sunflowers said:


> Well, then, let's discuss the training we do.
> I worked to train "give" and "leave it." I also worked on "bring."
> 
> Hans's favorite toy is his blue Wigzi ball. A K9 trainer who evaluated him said Hans would do anything for that ball. I keep that ball, he gets it when I give it to him, and he needs to do things to earn it. Either watch me, or sit, or down, he has to do something before he gets that ball. When he is penned, I take it away. That ball appears when I am around to interact with him.
> 
> He has growled a couple of times when I moved to take it out of his mouth. When that happened, I used the give command, and he gave it to me. Then, we did more obedience.
> 
> This is showing the dog that he doesn't have anything to worry about. He will get the ball back, through interaction with you.
> 
> We also use that ball to have him search. I close him up somewhere, I go hide it in the house, and then open the door and release him to find his toy. The reward is fetch with it.
> 
> We train patience when opening and closing doors, he is not allowed to rush outside. He knows the quiet command and stops barking when asked. He knows wait, come, stay, and stop. He knows "let me see" which I use to inspect his teeth, belly, or any place on his body I think needs to be checked (he has lots of skin problems.)
> 
> As far as food is concerned, he automatically sits when he sees me with the food bowl and looks into my eyes until I release him to eat.
> There are several others, but that is the gist of what we do. Pet obedience.
> I look forward to suggestions. I would like to do more with him.


It sounds like you have a good relationship. As for doing "more", I would find an activity that you both enjoy. I like nosework, but I am biased LOL. It is something you can do anywhere, in any weather, for any length of time.


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## David Winners

Interesting dog bite data from 




"70 percent of bites happen to children under the age of ten. More than 60 percent of the children bitten are boys, and 87 percent are white. Children are most frequently bitten (61 percent of the time) when they come in contact with the dog’s food or possessions."


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## MadLab

I think a main point with dogs and personal space is for children and adults to act in such a way as to avoid a dog feeling like it needs to snap at them to give it space.

Any situation should be gauged depending on the temperament of the dog and how the children behave.

I've seen children hug my dog and sometimes it is ok, but generally i will explain to them to not go hugging a dog which is lying down resting and to leave it alone. 

You won't really see dogs hugging or putting there paws on other dogs unless play-fighting , dominating or humping. So maybe dogs see hugging in a different way from us humans. 

I also ask children to lift their chin and look to the side of the dog when passing dogs so they don't get licked and so they are not making eye contact with the dog when passing or show any fear. Chin up and to the side is showing a dog you respect it and are not interested in it imo. There are some interesting theories from Martin mackenna a self proclaimed dread-locked dog whisperer in his youtube videos. A different and more basic approach. Similar theory with CM, no touch talk eye contact.

Again it is relative with the children and the dog. If a dog grows up with the children and sleeps in their rooms etc they are gonna have a different relationship than if they meet once a week or a month.


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## llombardo

David Winners said:


> Interesting dog bite data from The Genius of dogs.
> 
> "70 percent of bites happen to children under the age of ten. More than 60 percent of the children bitten are boys, and 87 percent are white. Children are most frequently bitten (61 percent of the time) when they come in contact with the dog’s food or possessions."


And these numbers make it more then evident that children and dogs need to be taught. I like living in a house that I'm not on edge in.


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## brembo

Re-visiting this a bit here.

I have been keeping tabs on myself with my dogs since I posted in this thread and have learned something. I do in fact interact with my dogs in a face-to-face way very very often. It's so ingrained in my personality/day to day that i didn't really consider that I do in fact "get up in my dog's faces".

When I come home I drop to a knee and hug/pat/rub the dogs as they go through the normal greeting spaz-out. Both dogs moan and whine and yip and nose bump my face/head with extreme regularity. I often lean over and allow them to come over and rub heads. At bedtime both usually give me a final once over and a night-night lick on the face. I get random drive-by lickings if I am down at dog head height as well. So, I have to say that I do in fact get lots of doggie facetime. It's so much a part of how my dogs communicate that I didn't realize just how much it happens.


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