# Puppy Culture



## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

I read through a breeder recommendation topic where Puppy Culture was a hot topic and thought it might be nice to have an actual discussion about it.
Has anyone used it?
How much of a difference does it make?
if you used it, would you ever go back and raise litters without it?
Are you only using certain aspects of it?
If you are against it, why? 
Do you truly know the entire program or are you just going off of what you heard or saw in short clips and talk?


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Nobody? 😢


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

As I said before, my current dog was raised using Puppy Culture. I’m not her breeder.


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## JunoVonNarnia (Apr 8, 2020)

I had to look it up... so I know nothing about it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> I read through a breeder recommendation topic where Puppy Culture was a hot topic and thought it might be nice to have an actual discussion about it.
> Has anyone used it?
> How much of a difference does it make?
> if you used it, would you ever go back and raise litters without it?
> ...


This is why people look at you like you have three heads when you mention Puppy Culture. It's not something commonly used in the German Shepherd world... or should I say it is used but it is not called Puppy Culture? I don't know. Nobody on here seems to know what all it entails.

Someone posted information on another thread where it was determined that in Puppy Culture's earliest stage, that it is nothing but the now defunct military Biosensor program which didn't seem to net good results, maybe. I am not sure if the balance of the program involves breeder imprinting or not. 🤷‍♀️


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's my understanding that the biosensor program didn't end up producing much difference across a litter and it was very expensive to maintain. The supply of solid dogs is adequate without the program. They were trying to produce super dogs and found that they were producing dogs on par with the top tier kennels.

I think David Frost has some info. He was involved in some testing programs at that time if I remember correctly.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I know some local breeders (other breeds) and Puppy Culture is quite a craze right now and very popular amongst them.

I dont have any firsthand knowledge of the impact it does or doesn't have on a litter.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’ve studied up on it when researching a breeder of another breed and did not care for their implementation. They claim for it to work properly, buyers cannot deviate at all from their methods when puppies go home. If that is true, it’s almost impossible to continue because most people can’t or don‘t know how to change their own methods of handling their dogs.

I know breeders who are already implementing some of those methods in their own litters, but don’t call it puppy culture. The name itself has become trendy which means it’s a fad, which also means some breeders will take shortcuts or not follow everything exactly, because people are all different. So the more a fad it become, the more who offer it, the less it will be like the original plan.

As MAWL posted in another thread, how much do you want a breeder to work with your puppy? If certain things are done to change behaviors, will your dog still exhibit the traits you selected the dog for? Most people getting a puppy want a green dog. If they get a partially trained dog, most buyers have specifics they want the dog to know, like being housebroken. You might say, training a dog not to bite would avoid landsharking, but that could also ruin the dog for bitework.

The flip side is that we can’t change genetics, so puppy culture may just mask problems. My advice is to learn all you can and then evaluate carefully any breeders who say they use it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I know some local breeders (other breeds) and Puppy Culture is quite a craze right now and very popular amongst them.
> 
> I dont have any firsthand knowledge of the impact it does or doesn't have on a litter.


The only way to know is to subject a random selection of pups from litters to puppy culture and somehow quantify the differences seen between groups of pups.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

IMO, the program may or may not be effective. What is effective is that the breeders who do use it are putting time and effort into their litters.
They are giving new owners a clear program to follow. Which again, may or may not be effective but does push owners to put time in. Time is definitely effective.
You cannot change genetics but you can definitely give any being a leg up by providing optimal conditions.
Personally, I don't care what name you put on it I want a breeder to raise dogs that they would be happy living with. Not saying all dogs fit all people, but a litter raised with minimal exposure and handling is going to have a much bumpier adjustment to family life.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

That is the second time I heard that. I don’t know where anyone is advocating a lack of exposure or socialization based on a mistrust of an unknown program which can possibly have a significant influence at that time on a young puppy to the point of making a puppy sold appear to be something that it is not.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Biosensor involved applying carefully administered stress to puppies. Heat and cold. Holding them upside down. Stimulation between the toes with Q-tips and then pinching. It was all about early stress increasing the overall ability of the adults to handle stress.

While I agree with early stress strengthening the adult, I don't agree that a specific program is necessary when raising a litter of working line dogs. They induce plenty of stress on each other. A good breeder gets puppies out and moving and exposes them to surfaces and sounds.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It comes of as a gimmicky money making fad to me. There may be some good information in there, but it is widely available for free. The breeder specific information, I can’t say I believe in. I don’t think any of they stuff they advocate does more than naturally raising puppies. I don’t think it will change the amount of work you have to put into a dog with weaker nerves either. The program gives methods for helping weaker puppies, but I think this could set w future owner up if they don’t truly understand the temperament of the dog they get because a lot has been masked already. If you are someone with no experience it’s a good start. To someone who is experienced already, you’ll probably get a lot you already know, and a lot of stuff you scoff at. This is from what I’ve seen since looking online.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Considering the program was started to use with a breed that needs to mask or control unwanted behavior traits, it’s suspicious to me when used with a breed that doesn’t need it. That said, it might be fine but I also think a lot of breeders already do sensory work with their puppies. We just don’t hear about it.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

@David Winners

Bio Sensor and Puppy Culture are not the same imho. Puppy Culture goes way beyond ENS. ENS is only a very small part of what Puppy Culture actually is.
Also, this is an interesting read about 
ENS.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Never had a puppy that was raised with PC and they were fine.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Imo, puppy culture / biosensor / early neurological stimulation is never harmful. I wouldn't avoid a breeder that uses an ENS program by any means. I didn't want to seem like I'm bashing it in any way. 


I took my 5 month old puppy down the boardwalk in Myrtle Beach today and hung out at a busy bar having a few beers. I'm all about exposure.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is the second time I heard that. I don’t know where anyone is advocating a lack of exposure or socialization based on a mistrust of an unknown program which can possibly have a significant influence at that time on a young puppy to the point of making a puppy sold appear to be something that it is not.


My take on this is that I look at the breeding program and if I trust the breeder, I'm not worried about them pulling the wool over my eyes. If their program produces dogs I like, go ahead and do your thing. I'll just take it from there.

That being said, I wouldn't be crazy about a breeder telling me how to raise a puppy, but I would certainly listen to their advice and have a conversation about my goals and their opinions.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Imo, puppy culture / biosensor / early neurological stimulation is never harmful. I wouldn't avoid a breeder that uses an ENS program by any means. I didn't want to seem like I'm bashing it in any way.
> 
> 
> I took my 5 month old puppy down the boardwalk in Myrtle Beach today and hung out at a busy bar having a few beers. I'm all about exposure.


I agree. Exposure is everything. 
Puppy Culture is not a bad thing at all. I'm surprised that there is such a resistance. Even as a kind of "oldtimer" I've learned from Puppy Culture. You can use what you like and leave out what you don't like. Personally, manding is the one thing that I leave out. That is the one thing, that can interfere with sport or working dogs. It's nice to have for pet puppies but I don't like it for working prospects, so I leave it out. 

I like it for new breeders. It gives new breeders a roadmap to raise puppies. The overall dog culture gateguards. We always tell newbies to go and visit clubs and watch, but the gateguarding is strong. Puppy Culture gives new breeders a roadmap to rear puppies when there is no mentor available. 

I feel those that are against it, don't really know what it actually is. 

A lot of breeders in the German Shepherd breed already use a lot of aspects of Puppy Culture without even realizing it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am all about exposure for their entire first year, very light training consisting mainly of manners, learning what they need to know. Anything else comes after that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> I agree. Exposure is everything.
> Puppy Culture is not a bad thing at all. I'm surprised that there is such a resistance. Even as a kind of "oldtimer" I've learned from Puppy Culture. You can use what you like and leave out what you don't like. Personally, manding is the one thing that I leave out. That is the one thing, that can interfere with sport or working dogs. It's nice to have for pet puppies but I don't like it for working prospects, so I leave it out.
> 
> I like it for new breeders. It gives new breeders a roadmap to raise puppies. The overall dog culture gateguards. We always tell newbies to go and visit clubs and watch, but the gateguarding is strong. Puppy Culture gives new breeders a roadmap to rear puppies when there is no mentor available.
> ...


The resistance is primarily that nobody here knows what all is involved with Puppy Culture and those that do know aren't saying.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Tikkie said:


> I agree. Exposure is everything.
> Puppy Culture is not a bad thing at all. I'm surprised that there is such a resistance. Even as a kind of "oldtimer" I've learned from Puppy Culture. You can use what you like and leave out what you don't like. Personally, manding is the one thing that I leave out. That is the one thing, that can interfere with sport or working dogs. It's nice to have for pet puppies but I don't like it for working prospects, so I leave it out.
> 
> I like it for new breeders. It gives new breeders a roadmap to raise puppies. The overall dog culture gateguards. We always tell newbies to go and visit clubs and watch, but the gateguarding is strong. Puppy Culture gives new breeders a roadmap to rear puppies when there is no mentor available.
> ...


A lot of puppy culture probably came from active breeders that set their dogs up for success. I think it's not coincidental that many common practices found in established working dog programs are part of puppy culture.

I have a 5 month old puppy that came out of a great kennels. I have had zero issues environmentally or socially. I continued his socialization after he got home. Nothing has phased him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Imo, puppy culture / biosensor / early neurological stimulation is never harmful. I wouldn't avoid a breeder that uses an ENS program by any means. I didn't want to seem like I'm bashing it in any way.
> 
> 
> I took my 5 month old puppy down the boardwalk in Myrtle Beach today and hung out at a busy bar having a few beers. I'm all about exposure.


Valor likes beer?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> Valor likes beer?


Lol... He likes everything


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The resistance is primarily that nobody here knows what all is involved with Puppy Culture and those that do know aren't saying.


In order to find out what’s in it, you have to buy the book and DVDs. I’ve looked everywhere and every site that uses it refers you back to the sales page. A lot of what I see there is early sensory experience and socialization with dogs and people.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I just ordered the DVD


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I just ordered the DVD


If you tell us what's in it, will you have to keel us?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I just ordered the DVD


Haha. I'm glad someone else decided to take the plunge. Which dvd did you get? I can tell you right now you won't like the exercise guidelines.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Haha. I'm glad someone else decided to take the plunge. Which dvd did you get? I can tell you right now you won't like the exercise guidelines.


Puppy culture film.

I'm going in with an open mind.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you tell us what's in it, will you have to keel us?


I will be happy to share my thoughts on the contents. I'll mail it to Carmen and see what she says. She knows more about raising dogs than anyone I know.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Puppy culture film.
> 
> I'm going in with an open mind.


You are brave for all of us.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I took my dogs out for some adventure in the woods for about an 2 hours today in the rain. It was wet and cold enough that we didn't even see any animals but we still crashed over, through and under all kinds of good stuff. Came back wet and cold, toweled off and spent some time warming up in front of the fire.

Dogs seem fine....went out 4X today all in the rain and 1 more to go. We didn't melt yet .... I need shares in a towel company


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I wonder if it has anything to do with the book When Pigs Fly. I recently stumbled onto a free copy.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Doing just that with Bo. He is 8 months. Has the basics down without long duration. We have fun and has respect for us.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The resistance is primarily that nobody here knows what all is involved with Puppy Culture and those that do know aren't saying.


why would you resist what you don’t know? And why not take a chance and get the video? Especially breeders should strive to grow and continue their education and if its just to find out what practices not to do. 🙃


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

WNGD said:


> I took my dogs out for some adventure in the woods for about an 2 hours today in the rain. It was wet and cold enough that we didn't even see any animals but we still crashed over, through and under all kinds of good stuff. Came back wet and cold, toweled off and spent some time warming up in front of the fire.
> 
> Dogs seem fine....went out 4X today all in the rain and 1 more to go. We didn't melt yet .... I need shares in a towel company


It doesn’t mean you have “broken” or unstable dogs if they didn’t go through puppy culture.
That being said, there is a difference between puppies that learn how to shape very early on and those that don’t. Or problem solving same concept. 

Think about the difference in children and those that grow up bi -lingual for example and those that don’t.
There is a very clear advantage. 
That does not mean that other Kids can’t learn other languages.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> why would you resist what you don’t know? And why not take a chance and get the video? Especially breeders should strive to grow and continue their education and if its just to find out what practices not to do. 🙃


Why would I resist? Maybe due to the possibility of detrimental effects on one of my pups? I just don't see people in the workingline circle using or recommending Puppy Culture. 

Why not take a chance? I am not the one to fritter my money away on snake oil. I am not going to spend a dime on a product that can't even boast about why I should use their products. At the very least, they should make something up, even if it isn't true. 

Continuing education doesn't come on an expensive DVD whose sales pitch is trust me, you're gonna like it. How many people are on this forum and not a single person can, or will, divulge one single tidbit about the protocol. So far all we know is that the beginning stages are all about the now defunct military Biosensor program. If I want information on that protocol, I would do my due diligence on that topic by those who created, used, and retired that protocol.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I agree with Workingline. Since dogs have evolved successfully from wolves, how did they raise their pups? My breeder leaves the litter alone for 4 weeks and only he interacts with them. I think that comes naturally for them. After that, the pups are introduced to the world around them and go to their new homes at 11 weeks. They know their names and the recall and are crate trained. All dogs from him are stable and social. No PC there.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> I agree with Workingline. Since dogs have evolved successfully from wolves, how did they raise their pups? My breeder leaves the litter alone for 4 weeks and only he interacts with them. I think that comes naturally for them. After that, the pups are introduced to the world around them and go to their new homes at 11 weeks. They know their names and the recall and are crate trained. All dogs from him are stable and social. No PC there.


I think that is one thing that I find irritating. The protocol acts like what we have learned from nature, and nature's protocol, is somehow defective.

Newton's Third Law of Physics: For each and every action, there is an equal, and opposite, reaction. For every change created in a pup by rearing, what are we losing in the process?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why not take a chance? I am not the one to fritter my money away on snake oil. I am not going to spend a dime on a product that can't even boast about why I should use their products.


This says it all for me. There’s not enough information on it to say it’s worth my money. While we are all interested in what this is, I think we can all agree it isn’t something that’s necessary.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Tikkie said:


> It doesn’t mean you have “broken” or unstable dogs if they didn’t go through puppy culture.
> That being said, there is a difference between puppies that learn how to shape very early on and those that don’t. Or problem solving same concept.


What I really want is an apples to apples comparison of the difference this makes. I don’t think I’ve really noticed a difference between dogs that began training early and those that waited.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> What I really want is an apples to apples comparison of the difference this makes. I don’t think I’ve really noticed a difference between dogs that began training early and those that waited.


This^ It is nothing new what too much obedience and structure can do to a young pup. There is a reason that the phrase "beaten down with obedience" exists.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Way back when I was involved with horses I found I got better results with young horses that had been mostly let be for the first year or two. We used to handle them as youngsters, like under 3 months and then let them run for a year or two. One of my best cow horses had been "lost" for 4 years. 
And I am a huge fan of leaving pups be pups. I may shape some behaviors in puppies, but I find that letting them be has resulted in more stable adults. Same basic premise. Handling a lot until 4-6 weeks and then largely just letting them hang out and grow. Obviously with dogs there is more interaction, but no real interference with natural behavior except as needed for safety. I cannot see myself following a set plan. They don't all develop the same. I am curious about this program though and would love to know what it brings to the table that makes it different.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I read a review someone posted that said they took all the commonly know methods of working with puppies, packaged it and are selling it for a higher prices than say a book on the subject. There is a DVD, then they upsell to a whole program. If someone wants it, fine, but it’s hard to separate the skills used from the packaging when nothing much has been written about it online.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I read a review someone posted that said they took all the commonly know methods of working with puppies, packaged it and are selling it for a higher prices than say a book on the subject. There is a DVD, then they upsell to a whole program. If someone wants it, fine, but it’s hard to separate the skills used from the packaging when nothing much has been written about it online.


That is my suspicion, it probably is nothing but various protocols that we already pick and choose from dependent on our personal choices. I suspect they pick and choose on what they think we should be striving to achieve. I don't know, I guess I don't need anyone to do my thinking for me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

PC is not any different than preparing preschoolers for preschool. They can learn to read easily in elementary when they are ready. Just MHO


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is my suspicion, it probably is nothing but various protocols that we already pick and choose from dependent on our personal choices. I suspect they pick and choose on what they think we should be striving to achieve. I don't know, I guess I don't need anyone to do my thinking for me.


One of my relatives got a lap dog puppy that was 12 weeks old and had been raised with something that sounds like PC. But that breed is already very calm and very easy. Now the dog is an adult and has some behavior problems and is lazy. You can’t completely get away from genetics.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> PC is not any different than preparing preschoolers for preschool. They can learn to read easily in elementary when they are ready. Just MHO


Do you actually know what PC involves?


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## ZeldaR (Nov 11, 2019)

I bought the DVD just because so many breeders I know recommended it. I have only watched the first 2 disks, but I will say I dont think it was worth what I paid for. A lot of it is pretty basic stuff that I believe most breeders do already.

apologies for the mess of my disjointed typing lol

The first 2 discs, talks about keeping mom stress free, then talks about ENS for the puppies and the importance of petting them. Next it talks about adding low level stressors such as dropping things to startle the pups, running a vacuum once they can see and hear. She has puppy parties at 3 and 6 weeks old to expose puppies to different people. they talk about the start of potty training, the start of clicker training. She has the puppies work to get their meals by going over a low board or going around an x-pen, also she has them walk on different surfaces such as a tarp covering an x-pen, a wobble board, stuff like that. She covers resource guarding and the importance of touching the puppy everywhere to get used to being handled.

Disc 3 menu looks like its about breeder evaluation, puppy temperament testing, 8 week fear period, and when to place into their new home. Practical skills training, socialization at 10-12 week. Risks and benefit of early socialization. how to find a puppy class.

Disc 4 is recap and to do list


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ZeldaR said:


> I bought the DVD just because so many breeders I know recommended it. I have only watched the first 2 disks, but I will say I dont think it was worth what I paid for. A lot of it is pretty basic stuff that I believe most breeders do already.
> 
> apologies for the mess of my disjointed typing lol
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this. It is much appreciated. 

I happened to stumble onto a YouTube video last night that stated similar things. 

What did stand out to me, for my personal preferences, was the clicker training. I have very specific reasons that I choose verbal markers over that of a mechanical one. I would find a puppy that has been conditioned to a mechanical marker a nuisance and hindrance, something that must be undone for my intents and purposes. 

I do use a mechanical clicker on older dogs for very specific behaviors at a specific location. If I had a PC puppy, I would have to undo the marker training only to have to redo it as a young adult. Hmmmm! I wonder how that would work.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

ZeldaR said:


> I bought the DVD just because so many breeders I know recommended it. I have only watched the first 2 disks, but I will say I dont think it was worth what I paid for. A lot of it is pretty basic stuff that I believe most breeders do already.
> 
> apologies for the mess of my disjointed typing lol
> 
> ...


Thank you from me as well.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thanks for sharing this. It is much appreciated.
> 
> I happened to stumble onto a YouTube video last night that stated similar things.
> 
> ...


I hate hate hate using any type of noise marker other than voice. I taught my dog to ring a bell to go outside. I noticed the bell was damaging the door so I took it down. He generalized the bell to any bell sound and when my phone rang he started thinking it meant he had to go out. That generalized to any ringtone and eventually to my phone itself. Any time the phone rings, chime or buzzes, he insists its pee time and will not settle until he goes outside. It only happens in the room where the bell was.

I also used a clicker marker when he was a puppy and you would be surprised at how many other sounds resemble the clicker. The other dog’s toenails on a hard surface. My neighbor clipping hedges outside the window. It has created other issues. I switched to a Yes marker and found it’s very versatile. When I was teaching him to locate hidden objects by scent if he was close but could not find the actual object, a Yes marker was all it took to direct him toward the right direction. Once he realized I wanted him to locate by scent, I dropped the marker.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I hate hate hate using any type of noise marker other than voice. I taught my dog to ring a bell to go outside. I noticed the bell was damaging the door so I took it down. He generalized the bell to any bell sound and when my phone rang he started thinking it meant he had to go out. That generalized to any ringtone and eventually to my phone itself. Any time the phone rings, chime or buzzes, he insists its pee time and will not settle until he goes outside. It only happens in the room where the bell was.
> 
> I also used a clicker marker when he was a puppy and you would be surprised at how many other sounds resemble the clicker. The other dog’s toenails on a hard surface. My neighbor clipping hedges outside the window. It has created other issues. I switched to a Yes marker and found it’s very versatile. When I was teaching him to locate hidden objects by scent if he was close but could not find the actual object, a Yes marker was all it took to direct him toward the right direction. Once he realized I wanted him to locate by scent, I dropped the marker.


Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner here! That is exactly why I work with verbal markers. The only time I use a mechanical clicker is to curb nuisance barking at home. The more sounds they confuse with a click, the better for me. Win-win!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Way back when I was involved with horses I found I got better results with young horses that had been mostly let be for the first year or two. We used to handle them as youngsters, like under 3 months and then let them run for a year or two. One of my best cow horses had been "lost" for 4 years.
> And I am a huge fan of leaving pups be pups. I may shape some behaviors in puppies, but I find that letting them be has resulted in more stable adults. Same basic premise. Handling a lot until 4-6 weeks and then largely just letting them hang out and grow. Obviously with dogs there is more interaction, but no real interference with natural behavior except as needed for safety. I cannot see myself following a set plan. They don't all develop the same. I am curious about this program though and would love to know what it brings to the table that makes it different.


Years go I had a neighbor who had an outfit and he only used wild mustangs that he had trained himself. He found that they had not been ruined by people in their younger years and were reliable, sure-footed and stable in temperament.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> I hate hate hate using any type of noise marker other than voice. I taught my dog to ring a bell to go outside. I noticed the bell was damaging the door so I took it down. He generalized the bell to any bell sound and when my phone rang he started thinking it meant he had to go out. That generalized to any ringtone and eventually to my phone itself. Any time the phone rings, chime or buzzes, he insists its pee time and will not settle until he goes outside. It only happens in the room where the bell was.
> 
> I also used a clicker marker when he was a puppy and you would be surprised at how many other sounds resemble the clicker. The other dog’s toenails on a hard surface. My neighbor clipping hedges outside the window. It has created other issues. I switched to a Yes marker and found it’s very versatile. When I was teaching him to locate hidden objects by scent if he was close but could not find the actual object, a Yes marker was all it took to direct him toward the right direction. Once he realized I wanted him to locate by scent, I dropped the marker.


That is really surprising to me. I have clicker trained most of my dogs and never had that problem. Maybe because I only used it for a short while for each new behavior? Would really like to know the 'why' in this.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I've had zero problem transitioning a few dogs off a clicker and to a word marker. They get it very quickly, it was really no hassle to speak of. They don't seem to forget the clicker either, as I've whipped it out and used it after they haven't seen it in years and they still LOVE it. I like clickers, sometimes, if I had room in my hands for it. I don't use them 90% of the time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Do you actually know what PC involves?


I am following a breeder who is using this for her litter. To me it seems over-the-top. Again, in the wild , where our domestic dogs originate as we know, they are pretty much left alone the first few weeks. If that had not been enough, nature would have come up with its own PC.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Years go I had a neighbor who had an outfit and he only used wild mustangs that he had trained himself. He found that they had not been ruined by people in their younger years and were reliable, sure-footed and stable in temperament.


Interestingly enough, I was just reading last night how well wild horses get along with each other. They said that when they need to thin the herd, it was nothing for 50 wild stallions to be penned together waiting for adoption with no fighting while many stallions raised by man need to be kept isolated.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've had zero problem transitioning a few dogs off a clicker and to a word marker. They get it very quickly, it was really no hassle to speak of. They don't seem to forget the clicker either, as I've whipped it out and used it after they haven't seen it in years and they still LOVE it. I like clickers, sometimes, if I had room in my hands for it. I don't use them 90% of the time.


Thank you for sharing this. So then I see that PC would be a major problem for me based on the mechanical clicker aspect alone, which is very important to me living in the city with multiple dogs subject to random barking.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Interestingly enough, I was just reading last night how well wild horses get along with each other. They said that when they need to thin the herd, it was nothing for 50 wild stallions to be penned together waiting for adoption with no fighting while many stallions raised by man need to be kept isolated.


Makes so much sense. Not interfered by humans who think they know better than nature.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've had zero problem transitioning a few dogs off a clicker and to a word marker. They get it very quickly, it was really no hassle to speak of. They don't seem to forget the clicker either, as I've whipped it out and used it after they haven't seen it in years and they still LOVE it. I like clickers, sometimes, if I had room in my hands for it. I don't use them 90% of the time.


My experience too. They also learn the verbal marker in a more casual way that seems to translate to training exercises. Dogs are way more intelligent than we give them credit for.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> Makes so much sense. Not interfered by humans who think they know better than nature.


I am pretty much hands off with my dogs for the first year. I practice natural recalls, no leashing, lots of exposure, lots of playing in nature's playgrounds, unlimited sniffing... sometimes I see people posting things here and I can't help but wonder just what training or handling error they did to create that behavior.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've had zero problem transitioning a few dogs off a clicker and to a word marker. They get it very quickly, it was really no hassle to speak of. They don't seem to forget the clicker either, as I've whipped it out and used it after they haven't seen it in years and they still LOVE it. I like clickers, sometimes, if I had room in my hands for it. I don't use them 90% of the time.


This is pretty much my experience with clickers. I use it early on to teach markers to my dogs. It’s quicker and more consistent than starting with my voice. I use it for some basics like sit and down. I transition to voice markers for flexibleness.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've had zero problem transitioning a few dogs off a clicker and to a word marker. They get it very quickly, it was really no hassle to speak of. They don't seem to forget the clicker either, as I've whipped it out and used it after they haven't seen it in years and they still LOVE it. I like clickers, sometimes, if I had room in my hands for it. I don't use them 90% of the time.


I love the clicker, and I’ve had the same experiences as you’ve had. I wore one around my wrist when I was training, so it was always handy. If I brought the clicker out, one of my Dobes would get crazy excited and throw a million behaviors at me. I’ve used it on a multitude of Italian Greyhounds and Dobermans, and the GSDs. It’s easy to fade the clicker. I mean people don’t have to use a prong forever, so what’s the difference?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogfaeries said:


> I love the clicker, and I’ve had the same experiences as you’ve had. I wore one around my wrist when I was training, so it was always handy. If I brought the clicker out, one of my Dobes would get crazy excited and throw a million behaviors at me. I’ve used it on a multitude of Italian Greyhounds and Dobermans, and the GSDs. It’s easy to fade the clicker. I mean people don’t have to use a prong forever, so what’s the difference?


I think the difference lies in not everyone uses a clicker and don't want the added imposition of fading it out, and also the possibility of a behavior being accidentally marked.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Transitioning a dog from clicker to marker word is not ever even an issue once the dog truly knows what a marker actually is. 🤷‍♀️😳

Maybe I am just the exception since I heavily shape and condition dogs for a living.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Fade the clicker? I guess you could call it that, but I’ve never needed to fade a reward marker. You can just stop using it once you’re getting the desired behavior consistently. When I think of fading, I think of lures, hand signs, and continuation markers. The reward marker is simple because it comes after the behavior.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner here! That is exactly why I work with verbal markers. The only time I use a mechanical clicker is to curb nuisance barking at home. The more sounds they confuse with a click, the better for me. Win-win!


Funny, I have been shaping dogs for close to 10 years with clickers and voice markers. Not once have I had these issues. 😳


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> Transitioning a dog from clicker to marker word is not ever even an issue once the dog truly knows what a marker actually is. 🤷‍♀️😳
> 
> Maybe I am just the exception since I heavily shape and condition dogs for a living.


It's not about transitioning from a clicker to a verbal but about totally extinguishing the clicker as a marker.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Bearshandler said:


> Fade the clicker? I guess you could call it that, but I’ve never needed to fade a reward marker. You can just stop using it once you’re getting the desired behavior consistently. When I think of fading, I think of lures, hand signs, and continuation markers. The reward marker is simple because it comes after the behavior.


What happens when your puppy hears a clicker sound after you have started using verbals?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> Funny, I have been shaping dogs for close to 10 years with clickers and voice markers. Not once have I had these issues. 😳


Are you using both for the same things such as if a dog sits you either click or verbal or do you use them for various behaviors? Other people have posted here that too many sounds resemble that of a clicker and I have heard that from other people IRL. I even know one person that was at a dog park that was mobbed by a pile of dogs looking for treats by inadvertently making a clicker sound.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Interestingly enough, I was just reading last night how well wild horses get along with each other. They said that when they need to thin the herd, it was nothing for 50 wild stallions to be penned together waiting for adoption with no fighting while many stallions raised by man need to be kept isolated.


The ranch I worked on ran several thousand head of cattle and several herds of horses. It was standard practice to bring in mares and foals, keep them penned for several weeks while they were handled, vetted and sorted for sale. Branding and castration also took place. 
Then the keepers were turned back out to run and grow. My horse Ti for whatever reason was bouncing herds and was not ultimately rounded up for several years. He was an amazingly steady and easy horse who both worked and served as my competitive roping guy. 
I found him highly intuitive and adaptable.
Back to dogs, one of the things I have noticed over the years is that the more they are messed with as pups the weaker their individual personalities and ability to act independently get.
I also question the masking of genetic flaws, which will eventually rear their ugly heads.
Not saying PC does that, just thinking that it's a program and not sure it's necessary.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What happens when your puppy hears a clicker sound after you have started using verbals?





MineAreWorkingline said:


> What happens when your puppy hears a clicker sound after you have started using verbals?


They learn quickly that it doesn’t lead to a treat when it’s not from me. People like to use them when walking on the street.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

I have never had an issue with dogs knowing the difference between a clicker or a different sound that sounds similar.
I can shape a dog in a room full of other trainers shaping their dogs with clickers that sound the exact same or similar and they wont react to another persons clicker.
The other sounds are not being reinforced, so they mean nothing. The dog is so heavily conditioned to my primary reinforcer that others dont mean anything to the dog.

It depends on what I am working on. I might use the clicker as primary and my voice as secondary reinforcer before the food or toy is coming.
Or I use my voice as primary reinforcer.
I can basically interchange clickers, voice marker as I please. Its simply conditioned reinforcement.

Without trying to be rude, It feels like those who have these issues dont understand how clicker/conditioned reinforcement works.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> I have never had an issue with dogs knowing the difference between a clicker or a different sound that sounds similar.
> I can shape a dog in a room full of other trainers shaping their dogs with clickers that sound the exact same or similar and they wont react to another persons clicker.
> The other sounds are not being reinforced, so they mean nothing. The dog is so heavily conditioned to my primary reinforcer that others dont mean anything to the dog.
> 
> ...


What happens if the dog is working away from you or you are marking a behavior when the dog is not looking at you? How does the dog know if you clicked or someone else?

I think people do know how clicker/reinforcement works and use them to train. I know for fact that the majorityof skeptics posting here now prefer training wanted behaviors vs correcting bad ones to achieve the same end results. It's simply that not everyone uses them to achieve the same goals and behaviors.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What happens if the dog is working away from you or you are marking a behavior when the dog is not looking at you? How does the dog know if you clicked or someone else?
> 
> I think people do know how clicker/reinforcement works and use them to train. I know for fact that the majorityof skeptics posting here now prefer training wanted behaviors vs correcting bad ones to achieve the same end results. It's simply that not everyone uses them to achieve the same goals and behaviors.


I wouldnt set up my dog for failure to begin with. This is when knowing how dogs learn comes in. I actually do a lot of distance work that includes chaining behaviors together.

I am not going to chain new behaviors while I work in a highly distracting environment until the dog has reached a certain level. And like I said, I can interchange clicker and voice marker as I please.
With one of my dogs the activity itself has turned into the reward. I can basically direct, reshape current behaviors on the dot until he gets what I want. He is a highly engaging and excitable dog. I guess, you could call him a push button dog.

I honestly dont understand the issue. Just set up your dogs for success. Everyone has the freedom to train as they please 🤷‍♀️

The clicker is a very powerful tool if you know how to use it. If not a clicker you can use a whistle, manners minder, bikehorn, tongue click, fingerflick, or voice marker. You can condition dogs to any reinforcer you like and then use the appropriate reinforcer for tue situation you are in.
The point about dog training is to have as many tools in your toolbox as possible!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Most here have knowledge and experience with knowing how dogs learn, reinforcement schedules, chaining behaviors, etc. You are not telling us anything new.

So you are saying that you can only work or train your dog contingent on 100% control of your environment? That must be very limiting. You should watch some Stonnie Dennis. He works multiple dogs and puppies together with multiple puppies, dogs, goats, pot bellied pigs, kids, etc., milling about for distractions during training. Heck, he even trains two female littermates for one client. Seems like he has some tools for your toolbox.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think people are over complicating raising and training dogs. 
Ringing bells to go pee, carrying clickers around, buying into programs. Kids, dogs, all the same.
Fresh air, sunshine, play and exercise. Show them love, respect their needs and teach them what you want. It does not need to be harder then that.
My dogs go to the door when they want out, failing that they come and get me. If I say go away, they go away for a few unless it is urgent. I don't need a clicker, I have a mouth, failing that I have hands.
Over the course of my adult life I have had WELL over a hundred dogs through my doors. All ages, breeds and genders. I have never, not once, sat down and thought "Gee, I think I need a DVD guide to over complicate dealing with these things"
I am not resistant to anything, I just don't understand what all the fuss is about.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> I love the clicker, and I’ve had the same experiences as you’ve had. I wore one around my wrist when I was training, so it was always handy. If I brought the clicker out, one of my Dobes would get crazy excited and throw a million behaviors at me. I’ve used it on a multitude of Italian Greyhounds and Dobermans, and the GSDs. It’s easy to fade the clicker. I mean people don’t have to use a prong forever, so what’s the difference?





Bearshandler said:


> . The reward marker is simple because it comes after the behavior.


The marker comes as soon as the behavior is what you want it to be. If you mark after the behavior, you are not rewarding the behavior you are looking for.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

The clicker marks the behavior. Not before the behavior, and not after the behavior.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> The marker comes as soon as the behavior is what you want it to be. If you mark after the behavior, you are not rewarding the behavior you are looking for.


I think you are trying to argue semantics. If you are marking when the behavior is what you want, you are marking after the behavior is offered. An example, you mark a sit after the behind hits the ground. You can say as soon as, but you are marking after. Also, as you add duration, the reward market comes later.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don’t see why a clicker has suddenly become an issue. I don’t care if someone else uses one or not, but I’m not going to assume implied criticism because I don’t use one, nor is it necessary for everyone who uses one to check in. It’s not that I don’t know how to use one, but it must be timed perfectly and I found a voice marker so much easier. I always have my voice with me. I don’t always have a clicker. I have clickers, I’ve used them before. I don’t like them. I have used treats before and occasionally do now just to switch it up, but I don’t like treats either. When I’m working with my dogs, unless I have a leash in my hand, I prefer my hands to be free. The only exception is if I’m using an e collar which is another form of clicker. The difference is, I can wear a remote around my neck and only touch it on the off chance I want to use it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I think you are trying to argue semantics. If you are marking when the behavior is what you want, you are marking after the behavior is offered. An example, you mark a sit after the behind hits the ground. You can say as soon as, but you are marking after. Also, as you add duration, the reward market comes later.


Actually perfect timing is to mark when the dog is moving into a sit so you mark just as the butt hits the ground. If you mark even a second after you aren’t marking the movement into a sit you are marking a stay. Semantics...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Actually perfect timing is to mark when the dog is moving into a sit so you mark just as the butt hits the ground. If you mark even a second after you aren’t marking the movement into a sit you are marking a stay. Semantics...


Marking the movement into the sit creates the issue of half sits.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Marking the movement into the sit creates the issue of half sits.


Only if your dog is a sloppy sitter. I know when mine are going to complete a motion. As I said, I try to get them exactly when the butt hits the ground. I got that from our trainer. Timing is everything.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don’t want to argue. My other trainer, Stonnie Dennis, is training his son to become a police dog trainer. I just saw a video when he told his son he was giving a treat reward too late. That reinforced my way of doing it, at least to me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think when you click can be variable depending on where are with the dog. You may be at a point where you mark when they sit or you may be at a point where you only mark for perfect sits, but the click should occur when you have the desired behavior or position so that the marker is crystal clear. 

To each their own, you have to use methods that you like and are comfortable with that nets results with the dog in front of you. IMO, for me, adding a clicker into the mix for how I train would only create conflict and confusion for a puppy or dog. 

Breeders should not force their preferred methods on buyers. The buyers have to live with and train their dogs, not the breeder. Buyers shouldn't have to fix anything that a breeder put on a dog.

Back to PC, I have seen several sources that state that PC helps prevent aggression. A German Shepherd is supposed to have a degree of aggression. Someone tell me why then are German Shepherd breeders using this program on their puppies? PC flies in the face of the written breed standard and what a well bred GSD should be. If someone wants a non aggressive dog, there are always Labs, Goldens, and other breeds genetically bred to lack aggression.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The problem is when people like the look of the GSD but want the behavior of a Golden.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think when you click can be variable depending on where are with the dog. You may be at a point where you mark when they sit or you may be at a point where you only mark for perfect sits, but the click should occur when you have the desired behavior or position so that the marker is crystal clear.
> 
> To each their own, you have to use methods that you like and are comfortable with that nets results with the dog in front of you. IMO, for me, adding a clicker into the mix for how I train would only create conflict and confusion for a puppy or dog.
> 
> ...



I'm assuming they mean inappropriate, unwanted, unwarranted aggression. Which lots of people have a problem with with their shepherds. There's no way anything you do up until 8 weeks old is going to make a German shepherd not act like a German shepherd when it grows up, if it was going to.

I really don't get the aversion to puppy culture. "undoing" something a breeder did with an 8 week old pup? How hard has anything stuck at 8 weeks? If a breeder cared enough to do the whole puppy culture program at least I know they put a lot of effort into the litter as it was growing up.

I know a dog who came from a breeder that uses puppy culture and he IS inappropriately aggressive, and he is a resource guarder.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I know a dog who came from a breeder that uses puppy culture and he IS inappropriately aggressive, and he is a resource guarder.


Not to be argumentative but doesn’t this show PC doesn’t work?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> Not to be argumentative but doesn’t this show PC doesn’t work?


Well, for me it kind of proves my point- or what I believe is--- PC may be a nice way to raise a littler of puppies but it isn't so powerful as to change major things like dogs with seriously weak temperaments or strong ones for that matter. I find it hard to believe that a proper GSD that was going to be an appropriate GSD as adult would lack the aggression to be that because it went thru PC program.

In my opinion, the dog I mentioned has a pretty major genetic temperament flaw which causes most of his problems, and no 8 week program for the litter was going to change that. I believe there are factors in the way he was raised since leaving the litter that have contributed to his problems in a big way. 

I think it's possible that a middle of the road puppy would benefit from PC just like any decent puppies benefit from being raised in a decently enriched environment. I doubt PC is any kind of magic wand, but I doubt it causes any harm either. I guess that's my point. It's a nice enrichment program, that's probably all. Maybe teaches puppies bound for agility some of the starting points for how some popular agility trainers do foundations, which might be nice if that's what your goal is with your dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> Not to be argumentative but doesn’t this show PC doesn’t work?


That whole litter resource guards, and they are pretty serious about it. The breeder has said she will never repeat this breeding. Obviously the genetics for it are there with this bunch


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'm assuming they mean inappropriate, unwanted, unwarranted aggression. Which lots of people have a problem with with their shepherds. There's no way anything you do up until 8 weeks old is going to make a German shepherd not act like a German shepherd when it grows up, if it was going to.
> 
> I really don't get the aversion to puppy culture. "undoing" something a breeder did with an 8 week old pup? How hard has anything stuck at 8 weeks? If a breeder cared enough to do the whole puppy culture program at least I know they put a lot of effort into the litter as it was growing up.
> 
> I know a dog who came from a breeder that uses puppy culture and he IS inappropriately aggressive, and he is a resource guarder.


I would not make that assumption. PC's creator is from the bull-and-terrier world. That is one group of people who seem to have a classic revulsion for any human aggression under any circumstance. I can't speak for the creator their self, but I am more than aware of the culture. Another member has been trying to point this out repeatedly. 

Puppy Culture is not an 8 week program and if you ship a puppy, you are talking a minimum of 9 weeks under the breeder's tutelage and that's assuming that you get the puppy that young. It's no secret that the window of socialization can close as early as 12 weeks, so yea, try not exposing a puppy during that time period or let it have a bad experience at 8 weeks and let me know how that works out for you.

I disagree that a breeder "cares enough" to use PC. I think that GSD breeder's using PC might be trying to cover up for poor or inept breeding practices. It should be viewed with suspicion unless you have unlimited funding and can own unlimited numbers of dogs. The puppy should come out of the box with specific genetic traits within a reasonable range.

The GSD you know of just may be inappropriately aggressive in your opinion and GSDs today are bred to have a high degree of possession. Think about that. Wasn't it you that said a GSD is going to act like a GSD if he is going to?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am invited to hang out with the PC litter at some point and if I can find this thread back will report back.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I am invited to hang out with the PC litter at some point and if I can find this thread back will report back.


Bookmark it or ask someone.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Most here have knowledge and experience with knowing how dogs learn, reinforcement schedules, chaining behaviors, etc. You are not telling us anything new.
> 
> So you are saying that you can only work or train your dog contingent on 100% control of your environment? That must be very limiting. You should watch some Stonnie Dennis. He works multiple dogs and puppies together with multiple puppies, dogs, goats, pot bellied pigs, kids, etc., milling about for distractions during training. Heck, he even trains two female littermates for one client. Seems like he has some tools for your toolbox.


Where have I said that I can only work my dogs in a 100% controlled environment?

I very clearly said that I set up my dogs for success until they reach a certain level and then adapt to the situation. 

Nowhere does that imply I can only work my dogs in a 100% controlled environment. It means I train smarter, not harder.
I dont just use clickers either. I work with body pressure, leash pressure, prong and ecollars too. A little negative reinforcement can go a long way.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tikkie said:


> I am not going to chain new behaviors while I work in a highly distracting environment


Not sure where you are getting that I care how you train. This isn't about you. This thread and my comments are about a breeder's unwanted influence and manipulation of the behavior of a puppy when buyers are purchasing the genetics of behavior provided by the breeding, not the breeder's interference.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

The entire topic is about how each and every one of us feels about the clicker at this point!
Each person has stated how they feel and train. But whatever, carry on!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would not make that assumption. PC's creator is from the bull-and-terrier world. That is one group of people who seem to have a classic revulsion for any human aggression under any circumstance. I can't speak for the creator their self, but I am more than aware of the culture. Another member has been trying to point this out repeatedly.
> 
> Puppy Culture is not an 8 week program and if you ship a puppy, you are talking a minimum of 9 weeks under the breeder's tutelage and that's assuming that you get the puppy that young. It's no secret that the window of socialization can close as early as 12 weeks, so yea, try not exposing a puppy during that time period or let it have a bad experience at 8 weeks and let me know how that works out for you.
> 
> ...


The dog I referenced is not a GSD, for starters.

And the breeder of that dog has said she will not repeat the litter so I think the breeder agrees that this was not the best outcome...

I know the dog well, the breeder less well.

Some of the dog's behavior is acceptable according to his breed. In my opinion, he is super nervy and a lot of his fear and insecurity causes other issues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would not make that assumption. PC's creator is from the bull-and-terrier world. That is one group of people who seem to have a classic revulsion for any human aggression under any circumstance. I can't speak for the creator their self, but I am more than aware of the culture. Another member has been trying to point this out repeatedly.
> 
> Puppy Culture is not an 8 week program and if you ship a puppy, you are talking a minimum of 9 weeks under the breeder's tutelage and that's assuming that you get the puppy that young. It's no secret that the window of socialization can close as early as 12 weeks, so yea, try not exposing a puppy during that time period or let it have a bad experience at 8 weeks and let me know how that works out for you.
> 
> ...


Yes, honestly, I think if a GSD is going to act like one it will.

My female WL shipped late due to weather and I think we got her at 3 mos. Then she lived with a reward only, agility competing clicker trainer for 6 mos. Probably VERY much like what puppy culture is considering I think it is geared toward the clicker training agility crowd. I have a lot of experience with these people.

When she matured all her instincts were there. She knew her job, she did it like a professional, and she could still make a grown man pee in his pants if she wanted to, and if she thought I was threatened.

I'm not the expert on any of this, I just dont feel like PC is _that_ big of a deal. My girl didnt turn into something other than what she was because of how she was handled and trained in those formative months. The only major down side I can identify is that she really needed more discipline and boundaries than she got and I do feel I lost some ground in that I caught on and introduced that to her as an adult but she would have been better served having more of that sooner.

One last thing. The PC breeder who I know is pretty heavy handed with her own dogs, much more than I feel comfortable with. So PC does not equal bunny hugging reward only people either.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The dog I referenced is not a GSD, for starters.
> 
> And the breeder of that dog has said she will not repeat the litter so I think the breeder agrees that this was not the best outcome...
> 
> ...


I know breeders of GSDs that continue to breed nerve bags, PC or not. That is why you need to pick and choose your breeder wisely. Just a stab in the dark here, but I am betting that many members here have everything they wanted in their puppies based on genetics and their own guidance without a breeder's excessive meddling.


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## Tank_GSD (Sep 12, 2020)

This is why I typically stay away from forums. Ask a question and get 100 different responses muddying the water further. As a new GSD owner, every post has info with contradicting information. This food is great, I wouldn’t give my dog that food, it can’t have this, my dog is 15 and had 100. Puppy culture sounds awful, but for each their own.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> The problem is when people like the look of the GSD but want the behavior of a Golden.


This is the answer to a lot issues on this site.
A GSD is not for everyone....even many of those that want them


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have yet to see the DVD.

That being said, I want my breeder to expose the litter to varying surfaces and temperatures. Get them out and about a bit and I'm happy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I have yet to see the DVD.
> 
> That being said, I want my breeder to expose the litter to varying surfaces and temperatures. Get them out and about a bit and I'm happy.


Ditto this! Stick to exposure and socialization.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

That being said, if Mike Suttle is raising my pup and he wants to imprint the clicker, birch Nosework, run him over an obstacle course for food, introduce gunfire and take him skydiving, I'm totally cool with that too.

Honestly, I think it's about genetics. I've fixed enough good dogs with bad habits to believe in nature over nurture. I've seen good dogs trained with nothing but a choke chain and a tennis ball. I believe strongly that training is far easier if you get proper early socialization done and some physical things like perch work and proprioception stuff started when they are very young. Other than that, the dog is going to be what it is genetically equipped to be. 

I haven't posted any videos lately because I got where I wanted to be with Valor and now we are just hanging out until he's done teething. We do adventures, recall, fetch, a few obstacle course runs here and there, and hang out. He helped set up/take down the camper, make dinner, take the trash out and get dog food around all week while we were camping. We went hiking and swimming every day. 

We are working on duration in position, but that doesn't make for exciting video.

I crammed in a bunch of stuff before 16 weeks and now we are working on relationship/habits and maintaining the work we put in early on.

I don't need anything from the breeder but a great dog. If the breeder is someone I trust, have at it and let me know where you are at when I get the dog.


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Tank_GSD said:


> This is why I typically stay away from forums. Ask a question and get 100 different responses muddying the water further. As a new GSD owner, every post has info with contradicting information. This food is great, I wouldn’t give my dog that food, it can’t have this, my dog is 15 and had 100. Puppy culture sounds awful, but for each their own.


its not awful at all!
Whats awful is that people who have not even seen the dvd already have a made up mind and opinion without knowing what it truly is. 
Nobody ever said you have to follow the entire DVD. You can pick and choose what you like.
Many of the things that are on there are already being used by a lot of working dog breeders.

breeding is highly gateguarded and puppy culture is a very good roadmap for new to follow.

you cant really do anything wrong if you use puppy culture imho


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> That being said, if Mike Suttle is raising my pup and he wants to imprint the clicker, birch Nosework, run him over an obstacle course for food, introduce gunfire and take him skydiving, I'm totally cool with that too.
> 
> Honestly, I think it's about genetics. I've fixed enough good dogs with bad habits to believe in nature over nurture. I've seen good dogs trained with nothing but a choke chain and a tennis ball. I believe strongly that training is far easier if you get proper early socialization done and some physical things like perch work and proprioception stuff started when they are very young. Other than that, the dog is going to be what it is genetically equipped to be.
> 
> ...


I think the key here is whether where Mike Suttle takes the puppy is a direction that you want to go in. Personally, I would have to consider Mike's protocol myself, but most breeder's aren't Mike and most dog owners would probably be overwhelmed with Mike's protocol. I am still waiting for Derp to show me something not found in the GSDs of significance.

And I do agree with nature over nurture.

Incoming!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tank_GSD said:


> This is why I typically stay away from forums. Ask a question and get 100 different responses muddying the water further. As a new GSD owner, every post has info with contradicting information. This food is great, I wouldn’t give my dog that food, it can’t have this, my dog is 15 and had 100. Puppy culture sounds awful, but for each their own.


My suggestion would be for you to research the members here to see who they are and what are they doing with their dogs. Have they titled dogs? Are they experienced GSD owners? Do the descriptions of their dogs' behavior resonate with your hopes for your dog? How about their training styles AND results, do you like their methods? Don't be afraid to research anyone's comments back through time. There is much to learn there.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> That being said, if Mike Suttle is raising my pup and he wants to imprint the clicker, birch Nosework, run him over an obstacle course for food, introduce gunfire and take him skydiving, I'm totally cool with that too.
> 
> Honestly, I think it's about genetics. I've fixed enough good dogs with bad habits to believe in nature over nurture. I've seen good dogs trained with nothing but a choke chain and a tennis ball. I believe strongly that training is far easier if you get proper early socialization done and some physical things like perch work and proprioception stuff started when they are very young. Other than that, the dog is going to be what it is genetically equipped to be.
> 
> ...


Come to think about it, I was in touch with Mike a few years back about buying a puppy. I passed when Mike stated that he never knew of a Mal that did not kill cats. That was not acceptable in my house. Anyhow, my two do quite well with cats but their heads do spin if they are crated and see a cat.


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