# Are European Dogs Born Well-Behaved?



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This article... Are European Dogs Born Well-Behaved?

I just don't believe it, not for a moment. For many reasons. For one, I'm sure dogs are not wandering off leash with their owners through museums, and if a dog is so well trained it would never need a leash, even around waterfowl (and what about deer, sheep, other livestock?). It's just weird that the article points that out. A trained dog is a trained dog no matter the distraction. 

This isn't like the street dogs, where a dog who isn't savvy is quickly killed though natural/(artificial?) selection. These are pet dogs and I'm sure that few dogs and fewer owners in Europe have the capacity and training ability to walk a dog off leash through a meat market or safely next to a busy highway. I am positive such dogs and owners exist, but they exist here, as well. It's mostly training in those cases, although some dogs do well off leash naturally- but there's nothing special about dogs born in Europe as far as that behavior goes. 

Also, where I live, and almost anywhere I've lived (excepting S. California only) dogs are welcome in most stores, with signs declaring it (not food stores but many others). Dogs are welcome in almost every park, dogs are welcome off leash on public lands. And by and large, the dogs are well behaved. And I've rarely had an issue with unwanted attention toward my dogs or puppies. So my experience is different from the Europe/US difference that the article is trying to "expose". 

Thoughts?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Muskeg I am glad you live in a dog friendly area. There are lots of places dogs are NOT wanted because people don't train their dogs to behave in public or pick up their messes. It is a nasty circular problem the way I see it. The more dogs are forced to stay home, the less people see well behaved dogs, the less they talk about how to teach dogs to behave, the more clueless we all become. Clueless dog owners have clueless poorly trained dogs who just convince everyone to keep dogs away...and the problem keeps spiraling worse and worse. 

When we get to take our dogs out to dog friendly places, we always let the staff know that we appreciate their willingness to accept our animals.

by the way, I've seen a similarly titled article about how children in Europe behave better. But with all the refuges storming Europe it will change things, one way or another.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I couldn't open the link but I am commenting based on guessing what the article would say. I lived in Europe and hardly encountered fights. Why? Because most of the dogs are intact is my take. People in EU are not necessarily more dog savvy than they are here and dog parks I have seen aren't fenced.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

I've been to Europe twice for 6 weeks each. I was a project manager so I had the car. At the time I was deeply involved with the Schutzhund sport as well as police dogs. We stayed in smaller towns so I naturally investigated Schutzhund clubs. Nearly every town of 5000 people or more has at least one Schutzhund club. 

I went to many clubs from one end of Germany to the other. Almost all of them are very social clubs. People come and train dogs nearly everyday and all day on weekends. Many had great dinners on week ends after dog training. During the week nearly all had a social time where people gathered to talk dogs and drink beer. It was always cheaper at the clubs than the pubs so a natural place to gather. Most younger people spoke very good English, many older people were uncomfortable with it however. They appreciated speaking English very clearly and slowly. I don't speak German at all except dog commands so I was the one at disadvantage.

I don't think I ever saw a reactive GSD anywhere. Many walked their dogs off leash everywhere including food markets. Other breeds had their clubs for training too. Lots of Boxers that you never see here. Gentle but very tough hard dogs that can walk beside any GSD. There just weren't " bad" dogs anywhere. Everybody seemed dog friendly, it was really different than here.

One hotel we stayed at the owner had a black GSD that was just huge. He roamed to dinner area all the time often parking by anyone that wound give him pets and attention. He didn't like the bread man however. One morning he was in the dinning room by us and the bread guy came in. That dog just exploded into the kitchen. The owner yelled something in German at him and he simply ran up to the bread guy and leaned against him as he brought the bread in. He followed him to the racks then back out to the truck never loosing contact. If the guy would have made a miss move he would have been breakfast, lunch and dinner for the dog. She said the guy yelled at him when he was a pup and he is just reminding the bread guy who is really boss here now. She said he had a SCH III title and they competed on occasion. So the dog had serious training.

Totally different than here. 

Byron


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Yes, same experience in Holland. I loved the VDH (I believe that was the acronym) club on Saturdays on the field. The dogs were tolerant (all intact, male and female). But we trained with the older methods; choke chains and dogs just had to listen! I biked over there with my dog, no matter the weather (1 hour ride). I never stayed afterwards when most of the guys tied their dogs up outside the club house and drank beer. Mine was a Bouvier mix and I think no one took him serious. All others were purebreds. That was about 35 years ago (OMG, I am getting old!!)
Maybe things have changed, haven't been there for a very long time


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## montse (Jun 21, 2017)

I couldn't acces the article either, so I cannot really comment on it, but I can talk about my experience.

I live in Spain. Unlike other European countries, here you have to assume that your dog will not be allowed anywhere unless otherwise stated (or you're expected to ask). In Barcelona, for example, dogs are now allowed in the Metro (tube) and the tram, but not that long ago only guide dogs were allowed. In the case of trains, dogs are only allowed in the short distance ones that run in the metropolitan area. If you intend to take the long-distance ones or regional trains your dog cannot weight more than a certain number (I can't remember it exactly, but it was low) and has to travel inside a pet carrier. I have to admit, though, that I've seen train conductors allowing bigger dogs in these trains. Similarly, in general dogs are not allowed in shopping malls, with a few exceptions. The same with restaurants / bars. Fortunately, many of them have terraces and you can sit and eat outside with your dog.

In terms of how well-behaved and educated the dogs are, most of the dogs I've met are well-behaved, both with other dogs and people. I don't think that many of them go to clubs or the owners do any kind of serious activity/training with them, but they have been taught basic manners. All rescue dogs are neutered or spayed, and it's also the case for many non-rescues. There are also troublesome dogs (e.g. male-to-male aggression), but in genereal the owners are well-aware of the fact and are careful to avoid potentially dangerous situations.

As far as I know, officially dogs must be leashed at all times in urban areas, even in parks, except for the areas called "pipicans" (literally, dog pee), which are fenced. However, there aren't many "pipicans" and they tend to be small. In practice, most dog owners take their dogs to the park and then unleash them there so they can run around and play with other dogs. 

In terms of GSD, we've met a few. As Nix is a female, she has no problem with males - in fact, there a couple of them that she seems to be in love with, I've never seen act like she does when they're around - and she's been also fine with the females, except for one. She met this female when she (Nix) was a puppy, and she's a bit scared of her. It's a dog that has issues, so we try to avoid her whenever we see her, which fortunately is very seldom. I know though, that most of the males (they're intact) have some kind of male-to-male aggression problem.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I think the article takes things a little too far. 

It's easy to travel and be impressed with the resident dogs, *depending* on your views of dogs in society, your experiences, your paradigm.

I went to a major city overseas and was startled at all the dogs sitting outside the grocery store. Some were tied to a bike rack, some were just sitting there waiting. Dogs running next to cyclists off leash through the very busy city, were the norm. Dogs rode on buses without leashes. Most people just ignored the dogs - the only people pointing or remarking or trying to pet the waiting dogs were probably North American tourists. My husband made comments similar to this article, about how dogs in Such-And-Such-Place were better behaved because they had a different type of environment to grow up in, more freedom, different expectations.

About a year later I was in a very dog-friendly part of Colorado, and witnessed the exact same things. 

We were somewhere else (rural, borderline third world standards). None of the resident dogs bothered people, and none of them bothered the chickens who paraded around right in front of their noses. They didn't bother the cattle either, or even look at them. Dogs of every breed, shape and size. On the surface, all of these dogs appeared amazingly obedient. But the reality is that dogs who couldn't learn to leave the chickens alone were killed. Zero indulgence for expensive destructive behaviors.

There are some interesting points, but I tend to agree that a trained and well exercised dog is just that - regardless of where. And different cultures have different thresholds for what kinds of bad canine behavior are acceptable. I think the USA falls pretty far toward one end of the spectrum of tolerance......


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I couldn't open the link either so I tried to find another link via google. No luck there either but found this article from Dr Becker on this topic. Really interesting and backs up some of the other observational replies posted above.

Are European Dogs Born Well-Behaved?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Did I post the wrong link? Sorry about that. It was the one linked to by Heart and Soul.

Thanks for the stories from people who have been in Europe recently. Really interesting! Germany does sound like a great dog country. 

I agree with Backpacker, because depending on where I've lived in US I've seen very well behaved off leash dogs, including one incredible GSD who walked off leash through the city carrying his ball, and who used to play fetch on the same field as my malinois- no dogs interacting with each other and all good. 

I haven't been to Europe in a while now, but I did live in Malvern, England as a kid and don't remember dogs really at all. They certainly weren't everywhere. Also, there were sheep free ranging the hills and I know there were issues with maulings by dogs and the sheep. Zero tolerance for that. 

I don't think exposure ALONE creates a well trained dog. I do, however, think that good base genetics and training play a huge role in a go-everywhere dog.

Also, some of the issues we have with dogs here are because the US is an incredibly litigious society. The bread-guy story from Europe would be the basis for a lawsuit here.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I've been to Germany many times and have always been impressed by the well mannered, self controlled dogs in public places. It may be partly genetic but it's definitely a cultural difference from the USA certainly California.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think that a great deal has to do with how the breeders socialize their puppies from weaning to new home.

I often use the phrase "help the dog to mature" --- a european way of thinking - also used in preparing young people to adulthood. 

Here we tend to want to prolong the juvenile period .

Landsharking ? that will be over and done with in , one , two , three , NOW .


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

My friend who is German, thinks much of America's " dog paranoia", is what makes the problem. She always took her dogs with her everywhere until she got here and couldn't.

Case in point, in my suburb they are getting ridiculous. I stopped during a early morning walk through a park to play some ball with my dog. No one was around. About 10 minutes in to our game, a cop pulls up and says he had a complaint about my "off leash dog"!! He felt bad about it. He said he could see we weren't bothering anyone, but he had to do his job. Ridiculous!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To put it black and white: European human kids are also better behaved than the ones here, generally speaking. You see it in the restaurants and stores. They also have more freedom to explore as the parents don't seem so paranoid about kidnappers. In Europe people are more down to earth and leave out the oochie-cutsie stuff and don't squeal when they see a pup or human baby.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

gsdluvr said:


> My friend who is German, thinks much of America's " dog paranoia", is what makes the problem. She always took her dogs with her everywhere until she got here and couldn't.
> 
> Case in point, in my suburb they are getting ridiculous. I stopped during a early morning walk through a park to play some ball with my dog. No one was around. About 10 minutes in to our game, a cop pulls up and says he had a complaint about my "off leash dog"!! He felt bad about it. He said he could see we weren't bothering anyone, but he had to do his job. Ridiculous!



In the suburbs you can't even grow your grass the way you like it, never mind play with your dog off leash. That is one reason we won't live in a neighborhood with a HOA. (for those who like it, great. We've just had enough bad experiences with one to last our lifetimes)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> To put it black and white: European human kids are also better behaved than the ones here, generally speaking. You see it in the restaurants and stores. They also have more freedom to explore as the parents don't seem so paranoid about kidnappers. In Europe people are more down to earth and leave out the oochie-cutsie stuff and don't squeal when they see a pup or human baby.


I think this difference in culture is why it is so hard to describe one of the breed characteristics - and that would be "aloof" .


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I think this difference in culture is why it is so hard to describe one of the breed characteristics - and that would be "aloof" .


I am European and Deja is not aloof but American bred with some Czech in her :grin2: She is actually interested in people and so am I. We seem to be soulmates on several levels. Who knows....


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I am European and Deja is not aloof but American bred with some Czech in her :grin2: She is actually interested in people and so am I. We seem to be soulmates on several levels. Who knows....


Hah! Mine like people too. Hoping my next one is aloof! Lol!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think a lot of the problems we see are because American dog owners tend to not respect and value the dog as a dog, but rather as something else... be it a child or baby or living stuffed animal or whatever. Even American's insistence on neutering companion animals to keep them forever pre-pubescent. And love of breeds like the labradoodle which I always think is some attempt at creating a living muppet. 

These are all generalities of course. I have seen plenty of Americans with wonderfully behaved, happy dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> . And love of breeds like the labradoodle which I always think is some attempt at creating a living muppet.


:rofl:


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Aloof is a general characterization of Germans, makes sense the dogs are bred and trained to be too.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

When I lived in Germany it was required to have dog insurance if you had a dog. Most of my neighbors dogs ran loose. However those who had dogs that did not behave were kept in the backyard and never out with their owners or allowed loose. So often when visiting places overseas you will not see the dogs who don't behave well, only the ones who do.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ausdland said:


> Aloof is a general characterization of Germans, makes sense the dogs are bred and trained to be too.


aloof to outsiders ! Can be pretty intense! Discriminating in friendships and then, Loyal . 

what am I describing -- the dog , the national traits of the people .


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

carmspack said:


> aloof to outsiders ! Can be pretty intense! Discriminating in friendships and then, Loyal .
> 
> what am I describing -- the dog , the national traits of the people .


I know, I'm German (ausdeutschland), I'm talking about the people and GSD's.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I saw very few dogs when I lived in Berlin. The only German shepherds I recall seeing were being walked in no-mans land.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ausdland said:


> I know, I'm German (ausdeutschland), I'm talking about the people and GSD's.


If the GSD matches the German people ow does a Dutch Shepherd match the Dutch?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> If the GSD matches the German people ow does a Dutch Shepherd match the Dutch?


They both come in brindle?


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> If the GSD matches the German people ow does a Dutch Shepherd match the Dutch?


I don't know the Dutch. Maybe DutchKarin knows? We just met a DS a couple weeks ago and he played nice with my pup. Both intense.


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## pashana (Nov 18, 2015)

welcome to europe. and welcome to Finland, the dog haters country. 
We have none of stray dogs here in my country, and also tough rools when keeping them off a leash. We have rools to collect the poo, we even have fee for a dog to pay. we have very few dog parks, and they are all bad. and full of those monster teenyweenydogs. We have houses and rental businesses who dont approve dogs. We have people who poison dogs. and so on....

GSD is very popular breed here also. sadly, because of that so hated, : people who dont have what it took take gsd, or family takes it to just have a nice family dog. I am not against it, but without a basic training, just a chihuahua or a terrier could be better?
plenty of dogs who has proplems. Almost everytime I go to walk with dog, or so on, at least one idiotic dog handler comes on. So here there are, plenty. Its worldwide situation. I see most of small, bad behaving dogs. U know what I mean, so tinywiny terrier or three on a big leash tangled and straying whatever direction, barking madly. but they are so cute so.... I think every one of the dog owners shoud ask one question for themselves: What IF your dog would be big? What then? 

I have had a dutch shepherd, very fearful and reactive. definitely no town dog whatewer the training. nerves whit like a mouse. Picky, one person dog, quiet, very untrustable. I would tell u teach gsd to search keys, gsd will search them, or at least try. dutch just snores that I dont care, search yourself, whatever the prize is.

U can say, both have good drive but only gsd can use it. my opinion, dont take a toll.


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## Rubyjane77 (May 27, 2018)

I think their GSD are generally more well behaved due to stricter breeding standards

http://www.ultimategsd.com/types-of-german-shepherds/

The article above explains how they also take temperament as a criteria for breeding.


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

My Mothers Europe (probably not now) involved discipline for both children and dogs, I'm not talking beatings but making sure both knew their place. Dogs were dogs, not dressed up maltie-poos, the kids as the old saying goes were seen, not heard until they behaved they were not taken out to restaurants etc....I don't remember the family dogs having any extensive training but they were well behaved on and off leash. I can now only speak of Canada and I thank god every day that my kids are grown so I don't have to raise them now as spoiled, entitled brats running for their "Safe Space" screaming abuse and seeing a shrink everytime they don't get the newest iPhone and a lot of people treat their dogs same as their children. There is a dog psychiatrist in my office building for gods sake, lol


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I was in Europe last month and true, the dogs and kids are well behaved, both in restaurants as well. I don't think it has to do with breeding practices as both in the US and in Europe you have good and lousy breeders and everything in between. I think it is the way they are raised and socialized (human and canine). I completely agree with Mishkasmom. It is a worrisome development; entitled kids who refuse to listen and are whiny and traumatized and generally don't seem to be very happy due to lack of structure and leadership.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Our dogs have decent temperaments to begin with. Our big-boy is calm and confident. My gal has learned to be calm because she is confident in me. Both dogs are expected to behave in public. When I hear someone say, "I wish my dog could be as well behaved as that" I cringe a little inside and then say, "they can be". Puts the responsibility right back on the owner. (learn to train the dog in front of you, please) is what my unspoken answer really is.


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