# Learning IPO foundation



## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

What is the best way to learn IPO foundation if I don't have easy access to a club? The closest club to me is about 3.5 hours away and in another country (club is in US, I'm in Canada)! There's another one a little bit further away but in Canada. I’d be fine with driving out to the club once or twice a month but every week would be too much. I think I’m going to have to do the majority of my learning and training on my own.

A forum member mentioned the Fenzi Academy to me. Has anyone else had experience with them? How did you like it? What were the pros and cons? I’ve done lots of online classes for myself, to get my degree (seriously, I live in the middle of nowhere!), and know that I can self-motivate.

And another member said that I could watch some training vids online too. Can anyone recommend any good ones?

Does anyone have any other suggestions? My puppy is 16 weeks old today, so I have some time for research, but I should get started pretty soon!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I go to my trainer every other week. It's a 3 hour drive, one way. She packs a LOT into one hour. The time in between gives me plenty to work on what I've learned. When I mentioned joining a club the advise was to not at this time and wait until next year when he will actually need field practice. Talk to the TD of hte club about lessons every 2-3 weeks. And start sooner rather than later. There is a lot of little steps they need to learn.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My issue with this idea is that it’s really hard to objectively look at what you’re doing, and what your dog is doing, without that experienced eye. So…you’ll watch a video, go out and do things, and think you’re doing it right. But your dog is actually an inch off, or something else is wrong, but it’s stuff that you won’t notice because you’re handling and you really can’t see what’s going on.

You’ll also more than likely end up limiting yourself. Not developing enough or more drive, because you’ll think it’s all you can do because you won’t see the signs that the dog is capable of more. You’ll see your dog…having more drive than any other dog you’ve had…and think it’s a lot, where as in reality you can probably get more out of him and if you’re looking to compete/title at one point…you’ll kick yourself when someone ends up telling you in a few years that your dog was capable of more.

Another big point that I’ve seen is that too much obedience/foundation, hurts the protection work. Your dog doesn’t learn from a young age to balance the obedience and the protection and protection can turn into an obedience exercise rather than a natural thing for the dog. It takes a lot of time and back tracking to get that out of a good dog. The protection part brings up the fact that a large part of IPO foundation work does have to do with the gripping and biting behavior of the dog. Something that you can’t work on by yourself because you need to be able to set a deep grip (if not natural/genetic to the dog). This is also something that will waste a lot of time if done wrong as a puppy and then you decide to fix it when the dog is older.

If I were you, I’d really start going to other dog clubs…not just IPO and start connecting with people. A lot of times, helpers are around and doing the work, just not for a club. Or it’s just not a USCA club at the moment. Now…there’s always a risk of the helper not being a good one, but you won’t really know that unless you meet people that can tell you yes or no.

I'd really say that not doing anything...is probably better for your dog than you trying to do something based off of videos.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Where in BC are you?


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

I'm in Rossland. Tiny little town in the West Kootenay. Right on the US border.

The Fenzi Academy offers a level where you video yourself training with your dog, upload to their site, and they will provide criticism on how you're doing. I like that option. 

I get the point about not developing enough drive though. I could definitely see myself curbing him too soon.

I haven't done very much obedience with him yet - just sit, down, drop it, leave it and recall. We do a down from standing position. I don't teach stay - I think the dog should hold the sit, down or stand until released. That said, he doesn't hold it for very long yet!  We've also been playing with a pully and I've been trying to make sure he always has the pad way back in his teeth before we start tugging.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

I don't really know how I would go about finding a trainer for IPO! 

There's a local trainer, who just got an Aussie puppy the same age as my pup, who wants to teach her Aussie IPO. She's never done IPO before, but is a very good trainer otherwise. She's starting to get some recognition and has been invited to speak at some events in the US and western Canada. She thinks she has a good handle on what to do for IPO obedience and tracking, and wants to learn how to do, and eventually teach, bitework. She's willing to work with me for the bitework for free, since she'd be learning too. Would this be a good option?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

McWeagle said:


> I don't really know how I would go about finding a trainer for IPO!
> 
> There's a local trainer, who just got an Aussie puppy the same age as my pup, who wants to teach her Aussie IPO. She's never done IPO before, but is a very good trainer otherwise. She's starting to get some recognition and has been invited to speak at some events in the US and western Canada. She thinks she has a good handle on what to do for IPO obedience and tracking, and wants to learn how to do, and eventually teach, bitework. She's willing to work with me for the bitework for free, since she'd be learning too. Would this be a good option?


Contact the club you are interested in and talk to their TD about private lessons.

NO, do not have a person who has never done IPO teach you IPO!!!! There are to many little rules that you need to be aware of. ESPECIALLY bitework! You can screw a dog up quickly on a bad helper.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Nothing out there outside the Island and the Lower Mainland, that sucks for you.  

I'm with others - if you don't have an IPO club or an experienced trainer, it is better to do nothing and wait until you are in a situation where you can get the training help you need, than try to do it off videos. Seriously, mess up your foundation, and you'll be regretting every minute of it. There is a saying that "No training is better than BAD training". Many dogs start IPO when they are older - my rescue was 2 when I started OB classes with her (she'd been a stray who knew NOTHING), 2 1/2 when I joined our SchH club, and 2 months later we had our BH. But no WAY I would have been able to do any of this on my own without working with a group. 

When people come to our club, the main thing we evaluate is the engagement and nerve of the pup (or older dog). We don't really care if the dog can sit, down, stay or recall in a perfect front, because that can be taught. What can't be taught is drive and the relationship already there. We sometimes get people who have been doing everything off videos, and they are a pain-in-the . . . . they act like they know it all, and they have HORRIBLE foundation on their dog, and won't listen to anything we say to try and help, because . . . that is not what Michael Ellis does in his videos . . . 

Well, if you were doing things the way Micahel Ellis was doing it, you wound't have all these issues, horrible, weak bites, and lack of engagement that we are seeing, (but the person does not, because they have been working on their own, and don't know what they are supposed to see).

Not saying that is you, but wanted to illustrate that doing things on your own may be more a hindrance than a help. 

If you wan't to do some IPO in the future with your dog, have fun with engagement and basic obedience, and leave the rest for experienced help - even tracking needs to be done a very specific way, and if you follow directions from someone who only does CKC or AKC tracking, you'll give your dog incorrect foundations that will be very difficult to fix later on.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I think there is a trainer, competitor and decoy in MI that does online training. I will look for it later: traveling right now.

Denise's focus is more on Obedience, rather than IPO.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I will say this- I have done IPO foundations through Fenzi. I like their program a lot as a whole, because as you mentioned, you can video yourself to get feedback. 

If you take a session, for something like this that you know very little about (not an insult!) you should absolutely pay for gold membership to upload videos d/t martemchik's points about little things that you won't notice that the instructors absolutely will. Train like you always do while videotaping. Don't change things to make yourself look better if that's not how you always train or you're going to create bad habits that no one sees to fix. 

Love Shade's classes and philosophy. She has a lot of great stuff you can see on youtube, too. And other user's submissions are great to watch on youtube as well... you don't even need to be a student to look those up and learn from them a bit.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Smithie86 said:


> Denise's focus is more on Obedience, rather than IPO.


The Fenzi academy has all sorts of classes with different instructors. Shade Whitesel teaches the school of IPO through Fenzi.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Contact the club you are interested in and talk to their TD about private lessons.
> 
> NO, do not have a person who has never done IPO teach you IPO!!!! There are to many little rules that you need to be aware of. ESPECIALLY bitework! You can screw a dog up quickly on a bad helper.


Worse, a bad helper can seriously injure your dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

McWeagle said:


> I don't really know how I would go about finding a trainer for IPO!
> 
> There's a local trainer, who just got an Aussie puppy the same age as my pup, who wants to teach her Aussie IPO. She's never done IPO before, but is a very good trainer otherwise. She's starting to get some recognition and has been invited to speak at some events in the US and western Canada. She thinks she has a good handle on what to do for IPO obedience and tracking, and wants to learn how to do, and eventually teach, bitework. She's willing to work with me for the bitework for free, since she'd be learning too. Would this be a good option?


A helper should also NEVER learn on a new dog. There's just too much to worry about. Unfortunately...this game is all about timing, it's all about the helper rewarding the dog with a bite at the right time. It's also about the helper being able to present correctly to make sure the dog gets success. The helper needs to be able to read the dog, and work the dog the way the dog is presenting, and not the way the helper wants to work the dog.

Whenever I throw on a sleeve (just starting) it's always with a veteran dog. That way, I can worry more about what I'm doing, and how I'm presenting, and also reading the dog, rather than actually training the dog when to bite, where to bite, and how to properly bite. A wrong move by the helper can really cause issues with the wrong dog.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> *Whenever I throw on a sleeve (just starting) it's always with a veteran dog.* That way, I can worry more about what I'm doing, and how I'm presenting, and also reading the dog, rather than actually training the dog when to bite, where to bite, and how to properly bite. A wrong move by the helper can really cause issues with the wrong dog.


:rofl:

I'm just picturing this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> The Fenzi academy has all sorts of classes with different instructors. Shade Whitesel teaches the school of IPO through Fenzi.


And that's fine. Shade is a good instructor and competitor. But there are SO many nuances to every phase that I would not start a beginner out on an online class. It's invaluable to have an instructor there catching things as you go. Little things like how you hold your hand when you reward on a heel or your body position when you signal the stand or where to hold the ball when you are bringing your dog into position.

If you have a dog with a low hunt drive, then an online course is not going to be the thing for you. Or when you run into issues like I did with Seger dragging me to the flag and then being hectic on the track.

It's easier to teach than to fix.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> And that's fine. Shade is a good instructor and competitor. But there are SO many nuances to every phase that I would not start a beginner out on an online class. It's invaluable to have an instructor there catching things as you go. Little things like how you hold your hand when you reward on a heel or your body position when you signal the stand or where to hold the ball when you are bringing your dog into position.
> 
> If you have a dog with a low hunt drive, then an online course is not going to be the thing for you. Or when you run into issues like I did with Seger dragging me to the flag and then being hectic on the track.
> 
> It's easier to teach than to fix.


 While I do typically agree, I don't know why those small things can't be fixed through an online course? 

I would always go to in-person training before taking an online class, but it's a good alternative, IMO, if there is nothing else available.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Shame you are so far away from everything! I feel your pain, however!

I learned the tracking and obedience basics on my own, asking for advice from friends and competitors I was in contact with, learning from online, watching videos, etc. I did the best I could with what I had as a total novice sport handler, and although I made a lot of mistakes I still worked very hard and made a lot of progress. I visited various clubs several times to do some bitework with Hunter a handful of times a year, so he had a basic foundation, but it wasn't until this year that a group of us got together right here in my city with a really great helper that I really got both of my dogs doing all three phases regularly.

So, do as much as you can on your own... then you can either travel occasionally for the bitework, attend seminars, or maybe try and get a group started locally?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would contact the club local to you and see if any members live out your way that would be willing to get together for training. Seldom do members live near the location of the actual training field. Getting together to do obedience and tracking may be doable with one of the club members. 
The online that Sue was writing of is Brian Harvey Schutzhund IPO Helper Tips. 
He has an online training group(as well as a club with a real field, lol)


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Wild Wolf said:


> Shame you are so far away from everything! I feel your pain, however!





onyx'girl said:


> I would contact the club local to you and see if any members live out your way that would be willing to get together for training. Seldom do members live near the location of the actual training field. Getting together to do obedience and tracking may be doable with one of the club members.


Yeah, it's times like this that I wish I lived closer to an urban centre. But then I walk out my door and almost directly onto the hiking trails and I remember why I live here. 

That's a great idea to see if there are any members closer to me! I don't know if there would be anyone local-local but maybe there are some within an hour or so.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> If you take a session, for something like this that you know very little about (not an insult!) you should absolutely pay for gold membership to upload videos d/t martemchik's points about little things that you won't notice that the instructors absolutely will. Train like you always do while videotaping. Don't change things to make yourself look better if that's not how you always train or you're going to create bad habits that no one sees to fix.


 Not insulted, and I'm glad to know that the instructors actually DO critique the videos!



Jax08 said:


> Contact the club you are interested in and talk to their TD about private lessons.
> 
> NO, do not have a person who has never done IPO teach you IPO!!!! There are to many little rules that you need to be aware of. ESPECIALLY bitework! You can screw a dog up quickly on a bad helper.


 Okay, good to know! I won't do that! I'll find myself someone with experience to learn from.



martemchik said:


> A helper should also NEVER learn on a new dog. There's just too much to worry about. Unfortunately...this game is all about timing, it's all about the helper rewarding the dog with a bite at the right time. It's also about the helper being able to present correctly to make sure the dog gets success. The helper needs to be able to read the dog, and work the dog the way the dog is presenting, and not the way the helper wants to work the dog.


So much to learn! I hate being a newbie, but at the same time am excited to learn something new.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> While I do typically agree, I don't know why those small things can't be fixed through an online course?
> 
> I would always go to in-person training before taking an online class, but it's a good alternative, IMO, if there is nothing else available.


I totally agree! I'll contact the closest club and find out how to get started. But I'm worried I might not like them or be a good fit for their club. And if that happens, it's nice to have something online to fall back on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> While I do typically agree, I don't know why those small things can't be fixed through an online course?
> 
> I would always go to in-person training before taking an online class, but it's a good alternative, IMO, if there is nothing else available.


What club do you train with for IPO? Don't you see many little things, that add up to large things, from your TD?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll just add, as a very newcomer to this sport myself, I feel strongly that a good trainer can not be beat. I find so many little things from the way I'm standing to my body language that throw him off when I go to my trainer. You can not get that feedback from an online course.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

McWeagle said:


> I totally agree! I'll contact the closest club and find out how to get started. But I'm worried I might not like them or be a good fit for their club. And if that happens, it's nice to have something online to fall back on.


Is this a Spokane club you're looking into? If so, can you PM which it is?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I'll just add, as a very newcomer to this sport myself, I feel strongly that a good trainer can not be beat. I find so many little things from the way I'm standing to my body language that throw him off when I go to my trainer. *You can not get that feedback from an online course.*


I'm honestly not following? Why wouldn't an instructor for an online class be able to notice and offer advice on those same things?

Eta: Do you mean classes that are just information based, and don't require submissions back?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

How old is your puppy McWeagle?


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

He's exactly 16 weeks today. Will be 4 months on Sept 26.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

McWeagle said:


> He's exactly 16 weeks today. Will be 4 months on Sept 26.


Perfect. Here's a couple things you could use that won't cause you any conflict with a trainer if you're able to find one or a club. This book is a real simple, step by step plan that will get you started tracking. You can go from this to hands on training with a training director and you won't have caused yourself any problems:
Tracking: From the beginning: Gary Patterson: Amazon.com: Books

Beginning obedience is for the most part luring. This is a simple to follow video that I've used on my last 3 pups:
Dog Training Videos

This will get you the sit, down, and stand and some nice self control along with a clear release. An easy, nice foundation that won't cause you any problems with any decent training director you may find later.

Play with your pup. Toss a ball and get a play retrieve with him. Feed him treats right up close in front of you, make him comfortable and happy to be there. Always encourage him to run to you. 

I'm not disagreeing with there being no substitute for a great trainer, but the reality is, you're limited. You can do a ton with motivation and play while you're looking around.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> And that's fine. Shade is a good instructor and competitor. But there are SO many nuances to every phase that I would not start a beginner out on an online class. It's invaluable to have an instructor there catching things as you go. Little things like how you hold your hand when you reward on a heel or your body position when you signal the stand or where to hold the ball when you are bringing your dog into position.
> 
> If you have a dog with a low hunt drive, then an online course is not going to be the thing for you. Or when you run into issues like I did with Seger dragging me to the flag and then being hectic on the track.
> 
> It's easier to teach than to fix.


:thumbup: 
Every training session will bring bumps in the road. For newbs' having another set of eyes right then and there, and give some instruction helps work the dog thru it when it is most important.And it teaches the handler how to deal with certain things, line handling/pulsing/keep the tension or slack it....
Waiting for someone to view a video and give a critique THEN trying to go fix something isn't really fair to the dog. 
One thing about IPO, driving is that fourth phase, probably the most expensive one and is a trial every time you hit the road! I'm so tired of driving, my poor van has been very good, thankfully.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I've tried going the video route. I had someone watch my videos and give me feedback. She was really good at picking things up from my videos but her not being there to help me fix them was a problem. 

She also sent me videos to help me with my problems (like if I couldn't get the down she'd record how she does it), so we had something totally customized to my needs. And on top of it all many many emails explaining many things and answering all my questions. 

So I had something better than what the academy offers because it was all for me and though I got a lot of theory knowledge out of it it still didn't help me much with knowing how to move. 

Maybe it works for some but for me I need someone there at least every now and then. 
For total beginners I'd say this isn't the way to go. 
And I'm a self learner, everything I know, including my profession, I learned from Internet and trying things out. 
With dog training it hasn't worked that way. I don't like where I am today after a year of going at it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> :thumbup:
> Every training session will bring bumps in the road. For newbs' having another set of eyes right then and there, and give some instruction helps work the dog thru it when it is most important.And it teaches the handler how to deal with certain things, line handling/pulsing/keep the tension or slack it....
> Waiting for someone to view a video and give a critique THEN trying to go fix something isn't really fair to the dog.
> One thing about IPO, driving is that fourth phase, probably the most expensive one and is a trial every time you hit the road! I'm so tired of driving, my poor van has been very good, thankfully.


THAT makes a ton of sense. I'm sure that's what Michelle was trying to say and I just wasn't getting it. 

I'm hoping to start working with Gus after winter... How do you feel about carpooling?


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

I also agree that video is not the best way to go about learning in your situation. If I were you I would check out the clubs. You need real-time instruction and direction. 

In your situation, I would also try to attend a seminar that has a good cross section of dogs. By that I mean, the seminar should have beginning dogs, intermediate level dogs, and dogs that are advanced. This will give you an idea of where you are going and how to get there. I would personally recommend Marko Koskensalo, I know he is in Canada quite a bit, although I'm not sure exactly where.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to attempt!


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> :thumbup:
> Every training session will bring bumps in the road. For newbs' having another set of eyes right then and there, and give some instruction helps work the dog thru it when it is most important.And it teaches the handler how to deal with certain things, line handling/pulsing/keep the tension or slack it....
> Waiting for someone to view a video and give a critique THEN trying to go fix something isn't really fair to the dog.
> One thing about IPO, driving is that fourth phase, probably the most expensive one and is a trial every time you hit the road! I'm so tired of driving, my poor van has been very good, thankfully.


Yeah, that really makes a lot of sense. I will be contacting the club and see what their drill is for newbies. It kinda sucks - I'm going on vacation in a month, right as I want to get started on all this. Bad timing... Oh well, that's life. I'll work around it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Before you know it, there will be 3' of snow on the ground and putdoor training will cease. Your pup will be just fine without the rush to begin. Take that Winter downtime and read, watch some good training video's. Perchwork/positions/focus can be done inside and will help with the obedience, which is pretty much the foundation of IPO anyway.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

To be honest 95% of my IPO obedience and tracking I learned online. I basically used the club I train at for helper work. You can even do the protection foundation on your own once you accumulate some experience.
Bark and hold, grip, strike, outing. Even secondary control, just put a tug or ball on the ground or have the wife hold it. Poor mans helper thats always around.

You can learn on your own to a certain degree if you are motivated and really endevour to understand the theory behind the application that you see in videos and read about online.

You WILL make mistakes and have to go back and fix stuff, but since this is your first dog that will happen anyways wether or not you are at a club. The one good thing about the internet is people tend to post more of the good looking stuff then the bad. This always sets the bar and pushes a sufficiently motivated trainer to aim for the same picture.

In the end it comes down to you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Much of training is "feel" and comes with experience (and much of that is also just a natural talent) so with or without help you will make mistakes. 

Gary Patterson's book on tracking is excellent (the one Steve posted earlier). I am almost entirely self taught in tracking getting a few pointers here and there over the years. You do actually need to see what a good track (or obedience routine) look like so you have a point of reference. At some point you do need to track with people around so your dog sees a crowd, a "judge", a "secretary". 

Very good obedience is difficult to do alone. If you have a place where you can work and install mirrors, then much can be done on your own. The mirrors can be a God send. You though will need people around to expose your dog to a group and crowds and also someone to nit pick and give pointers. 

Protection, on the other hand, and despite what people want to claim, is rarely done well on your own. A good helper, especially with a strong dog, is needed. I have had dogs that would never bark strongly for me if at all. They were not play dogs and showing that power on mom wasn't happening. I don't want to imprint play behaviors into my dogs in protection. 

Living in the middle of no where you may have to look into other sports than IPO especially if you can't find anyone closer to you to work with.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, I agree that talent is needed. Not everyone can become a good trainer. I think I'm lacking the talent so it'd be interesting to see how far I can go without it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - you said the club was 3.5 hours away. I regularly drive 3 hours north for training and 3 hours south for protection training. I try to go every 2 weeks because he's in the foundation stages and I'm so new to the sport. But that also depends on their schedules. He's a baby. You'll be working with flirt poles and rags (which you CAN do at home). You'll be putting hte foundation for tracking and obedience on him. 

No reason why you can't watch videos AND go to a trainer every 2-3 weeks.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I personally wouldn't do flirt poles and rags at home if you're looking to get into titling for IPO...you need someone to set the grip, even with a rag. If you teach the dog from a young age to bite full...he will continue to bite full. And unless its genetic, the dog is likely to not bite full.

But...it's not unheard of for people to drive for 3+ hours for a 5 minute bite work session or playing with a flirt pole. The right helper is EXTREMELY important.

I've been working on my dog's grips for months now because it was never imprinted as a puppy...my bitch on the other hand, has extremely full/hard genetic grips...and so she hasn't needed as much work even though it wasn't imprinted on her at a young age either.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My trainer had no problem with me doing a flirt pole and building drive. I was encouraged to. I guess the advice differs based on the trainer.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

I'm also a little worried that I'll get to the club and find that I don't really like them. Although I guess I can't make that decision until I actually go and visit. 

I haven't heard anything super positive about the 2 clubs in the area and, to be honest, I've been told that the trainers aren't that great either. I haven't met any of them - this is all based on what I've heard. 

How would I judge, as more or less a newbie, if a trainer and/or the helper is good?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Go meet them. Don't worry about that path until you cross it. 

Look for titles. What is the success of the club members? Go to seminars when you can. Watch videos of helpers online. There seems to be a lot of 'hush hush' about people in the sport until you get in the sport and then you'll start hearing little things. Just a comment here and there.

Join the IPO facebook page. LOTS of information there! If you want, PM me and I'll send you the link.


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