# Ok when strangers give her treats but watch out!



## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

It happened yesterday and today. Was taking my girl out, and the last couple of times I was armed with biscuits. She has her invisible bubble and whenever a stranger bursts it, she attacks. Literally hair up, growling, and biting. Yesterday and today I had strangers she doesn't know feed her treats. She's ok when they're feeding her but the moment they stopped and tried to pet her, watch out! 

She nearly bit the guy's hand yesterday (he was quick enough to pull away) but bit clean off a small portion of a lady's shirt today. Before both situations happened, I made sure both of them were dog people and they knew how aggressive she was beforehand. The guy did ok but the lady was suddenly no longer a dog person. I apologized to her profusely and she said it's ok it's not my fault. I felt really bad for her and for my girl. 

One good thing about my girl is she does great weaving through crowds even close to other people when we're walking, even slowly. But she's just so protective (I think that's why) and come out growling and biting when a person tries to single me or her out.

Any more suggestions on what I should do based on what I described above?


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## coulter (Oct 13, 2012)

That's scary is all I can say, I'd be very very careful. Doesn't sound like she is being protective. Just fear


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why let people treat her since you know she's aggressive. becareful
in crowds. you never know when someone will reach out to touch her.
if my dog behaved like that i would get him a muzzle.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

be very careful with your dog , understand what is going on so that you can manage her and avoid drama of a bite and a lawsuit.

Sounds very much like the dog is exhibiting social fears .
" She has her invisible bubble and whenever a stranger bursts it, she attacks. Literally hair up, growling, and biting. " that would be her zone of comfort . No threat to her or you -- fear aggression , pre-emptive strick from her part .

Stop having strangers feed your dog in an attempt to counter-condition . Nobody needs to pat your dog . 

"One good thing about my girl is she does great weaving through crowds even close to other people when we're walking, even slowly. But she's just so protective (I think that's why) and come out growling and biting when a person tries to single me or her out"

sounds like you are okay (wouldn't test it too far) as long as the crowd is going the same direction ---- what if you were on one side and the crowd on the other coming toward you?

that was part of an old temperament test . move along with a crowd which speeds up so they are past and ahead of you and then when at a distance they turn and walk toward you --- different dog ! different reaction with dogs not so stable.

The dog is not protective . 

Basic obedience . Consistent expectations , routines can take some anxiety away from the dog , will give comfort to her .


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

The sad thing is kids just love her and want to pet her but obviously I have to turn them down. Looks like she'll be a one family dog. Strangers seem to be her mark. She plays well with my child and our Pomeranian.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

coulter said:


> That's scary is all I can say, I'd be very very careful. Doesn't sound like she is being protective. Just fear


Yeah I thought I was being careful, now even more so.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> why let people treat her since you know she's aggressive. becareful
> in crowds. you never know when someone will reach out to touch her.
> if my dog behaved like that i would get him a muzzle.


Yeah I'm sure you'd muzzle your dog just to take him out right?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how sad would it be if one of the kids got a face bite ?
Fearful dogs are scary because of the unpredictability of what might trigger a fear response from them. You can't be casual with them , constantly have to read and monitor them for little shifts in them to see if you are near their threshold. 
A child wouldn't do this . I would be careful even with your own child playing with the dog . A reaction can be lightning swift . At minimum you always be present to supervise . Kid should not be inhibited , dog needs to be managed , things in perspective , kept fair .

No other kids exposure . Dog may be okay with yours but I wouldn't have her in the mix with kid-friends coming over .
Put dog securely away to avoid a problem.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Yeah I'm sure you'd muzzle your dog just to take him out right? " In some countries that is standard. 
With some breeds that is imposed.
With some dogs it is wise to prevent a problem.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> be very careful with your dog , understand what is going on so that you can manage her and avoid drama of a bite and a lawsuit.
> 
> Sounds very much like the dog is exhibiting social fears .
> " She has her invisible bubble and whenever a stranger bursts it, she attacks. Literally hair up, growling, and biting. " that would be her zone of comfort . No threat to her or you -- fear aggression , pre-emptive strick from her part .
> ...


I walk downtown and busy trails and people come at us all the time, even close. Joggers, bikes, etc. She's just bad when one of them come to talk to me or tries to pet her. She might be bad when they're consistently alongside us, although that rarelyhappens.

Yeah doing the same walks regularly. She's used to being near people, just not with them in her face. With other dogs, she's a terror, although she's pretty calm with other dogs bark at her first.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if my dog was aggressive in certain situations i would diffinitely
muzzle him. it's a common sense move. i also wouldn't let
people treat him if he was aggressive towards them. you're 
putting your dog in situations that he's not comfortable with.
i wouldn't put my dog in situations where he shows aggression.



doggiedad said:


> why let people treat her since you know she's aggressive. becareful in crowds. you never know when someone will reach out to touch her. if my dog behaved like that i would get him a muzzle.





keiko said:


> Yeah I'm sure you'd muzzle your dog just to take him out right?


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> if my dog was aggressive in certain situations i would diffinitely
> muzzle him. it's a common sense move. i also wouldn't let
> people treat him if he was aggressive towards them. you're
> putting your dog in situations that he's not comfortable with.
> i wouldn't put my dog in situations where he shows aggression.


Ok good for you. As for me, muzzling just not practical. I'd sooner not take her out.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> how sad would it be if one of the kids got a face bite ?
> Fearful dogs are scary because of the unpredictability of what might trigger a fear response from them. You can't be casual with them , constantly have to read and monitor them for little shifts in them to see if you are near their threshold.
> A child wouldn't do this . I would be careful even with your own child playing with the dog . A reaction can be lightning swift . At minimum you always be present to supervise . Kid should not be inhibited , dog needs to be managed , things in perspective , kept fair .
> 
> ...


Always been under my careful watch. Thanks for your advice.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

One of my dogs is like yours and she is always muzzled in public. This is mainly to protect her. She doesn't lunge at people but if someone were to touch her she could bite and I wouldn't want her to get put down for that. We use a Baskerville muzzle and when people come our way she knows to look and focus on me and she gets a treat. You just never know when someone is going to touch your dog unexpectedly- a man once came up behind me while I had my normal dog in a sit at a stoplight and he hugged her. He would have been bitten had it been my shy dog. if people ask why she has a muzzle I just say that she eats rocks, it's not a big deal.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

she almost bit a man's hand under your careful watch. she ripped
a lady's shirt under your careful watch.



keiko said:


> Always been under my careful watch. Thanks for your advice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Always been under my careful watch"
great . that is being responsible , but sometimes you don't know what it is that you are watching for.
Example you thought the dog was being protective . In subtle ways you may have been reinforcing the dogs inappropriate reaction. 
Now that you think of the response from your dog as being fear based you will be watching and will take another course of action . One of which is not exposing your dog to the set up situation of drawing a stranger in closer .


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> she almost bit a man's hand under your careful watch. she ripped
> a lady's shirt under your careful watch.


Yeah do whatever you want with your dog. I gave you one sentence and already you know my dog like she's yours. I know my dog better than you do. I am responsible for what happens. I'll definitely be more careful next time, lessons learned, but there is no way I'd muzzle my dog.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> "Always been under my careful watch"
> great . that is being responsible , but sometimes you don't know what it is that you are watching for.
> Example you thought the dog was being protective . In subtle ways you may have been reinforcing the dogs inappropriate reaction.
> Now that you think of the response from your dog as being fear based you will be watching and will take another course of action . One of which is not exposing your dog to the set up situation of drawing a stranger in closer .


I know what you saying here. I guess I was trying new approaches and lucky nothing serious happened. I'll definitely be even more vigilant going forward.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this " I made sure both of them were dog people and they knew how aggressive she was beforehand"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what is so wrong with wearing a muzzle?


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> this " I made sure both of them were dog people and they knew how aggressive she was beforehand"


You can't judge her by one sentence. She's a lot more complex. Treats really calm her down and I've actually done this dozens of times before. Two of my cop friends fed her just fine even when she barks at them initially. Now she's just calm as can be around them.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't get it these are adults, they knew she would try to take a chunk out of them but still wanted to give her treats?????? ??????????????????????

Even if you are a dog person no one is going to say yes to that sorry. Why on earth would I get bitten ? I don't interact with strange dogs but why would someone want to get lunged and snapped at by a german shepherd???

Did they think they were Cesar Millan? Just makes no sense sorry. If they knew how dangerous the dog is.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i only know your dog was aggressive towards 2 people. you
said she was. stop defending your dog. protect your dog.



doggiedad said:


> she almost bit a man's hand under your careful watch. she ripped
> a lady's shirt under your careful watch.





keiko said:


> Yeah do whatever you want with your dog.
> 
> >>>> I gave you one sentence and already you know my dog like she's yours. I know my dog better than you do.<<<<
> 
> I am responsible for what happens. I'll definitely be more careful next time, lessons learned, but there is no way I'd muzzle my dog.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i only know your dog was aggressive towards 2 people. you
> said she was. stop defending your dog. protect your dog.


She had numerous encounters without incidence so from that I know her more than you do. If you had practical, non-repetitive, and non-condescending advice, I'd be more receptive. You said to muzzle my dog. I said no, I'll take a different approach. And so you start accusing me of not protecting my dog. There more ways than one to skin a cat, er, dog so thanks but no thanks.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

pets4life said:


> I don't get it these are adults, they knew she would try to take a chunk out of them but still wanted to give her treats?????? ??????????????????????
> 
> Even if you are a dog person no one is going to say yes to that sorry. Why on earth would I get bitten ? I don't interact with strange dogs but why would someone want to get lunged and snapped at by a german shepherd???
> 
> Did they think they were Cesar Millan? Just makes no sense sorry. If they knew how dangerous the dog is.


Because if you look at her she's a calm dog. Even kids want to pet her.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

so they didnt really think she would do anything i guess 

Remember using a muzzle is not to protect others, it is to protect your own dog from being put to sleep after she or he bites someone.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It is not one sentence . It is a picture of the dog that you are providing and each sentence validates it

"She has her invisible bubble and whenever a stranger bursts it, she attacks"

If I saw your dog on the sidewalk I would take an instant impression and act accordingly. I am not going to wait till we find the next bench to sit and chat , to go through the life story of the dog.

Kids are innocent. They want to pet the tiger at the zoo.

your dog is not calm , not when there is a bubble --- 

I know good stable calm dogs . They are not what you describe in your experience.


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## MiaMoo (Apr 6, 2013)

It seems like you made this thread hoping people would tell you to continue your treat/stranger exercise or give you other ways to help your dog overcome it's aggression. Seeing as that is not the case, all you're doing is defending and not taking advice. 

If I had a dog that was aggressive and has shown that s/he could and would injure someone else, there is no way I would take them out around other people/dogs without a muzzle. 

You say there is absolutely no way you would muzzle your dog, *but why?* You said it's "not convenient", but how can a simple tool be inconvenient? That small "inconvenience" could be he difference between keeping the dog you love and losing them due to a nasty lawsuit.



keiko said:


> And so you start accusing me of not protecting my dog.


You aren't protecting your dog. You are taking a dangerous dog out around people/animals that do not know your dog. And as you said, "Because if you look at her she's a calm dog. Even kids want to pet her." What if one does? I have kids/adults come up to my dog all the time and pet her without my say. You can control how other people act towards your dog, but you CAN prevent what your dog can do to them.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

a muzzle is practical. where was i repetitive? i'm not being
condescending. i'm straight to the point. i didn't accuse you 
of not protecting your dog. telling you to protect your means 
don't put your dog in situations where she can be aggressive 
and usuing people that are dog people what difference does 
that make? aggression towards dog people or non-dog people 
is aggression.



doggiedad said:


> i only know your dog was aggressive towards 2 people. you
> said she was. stop defending your dog. protect your dog.





keiko said:


> She had numerous encounters without incidence so from that I know her more than you do.
> 
> >>>>> If you had practical, non-repetitive, and non-condescending advice, I'd be more receptive.<<<<<
> 
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Your right only you know your dog, but from your initial post it sounds like you are setting her up for a bite

What other approach are you going to take before she bites some kid who comes running up in her face?

Don't have people/strangers feed her, don't allow people to pet her, DON"T allow her to lunge/try to bite someone.

Something to really think about, and you may not like it, are you prepared financially to lose everything you own if she bites someone and also have your dog pay with her life because of owner irresponsibility?

I guess I don't understand why you even posted this incident because people are not going to agree with taking a dog like this out in public where something very serious could happen without proper management..

I feel very bad for your dog because you are setting her up to fail


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Definitely agree with that Diane. 

Sticky: Shy dogs/fearful dogs links and resources

Is a sticky with some resources to check out. 

Also - how to protect a dog - but this is beyond that: What do you tell people? (







1 2)

Muzzles are great tools that allow dogs who are risky to go out into the world safely. They help as a visual deterrent (not always!) for people, and keep a dog safe from the choices they are making. The best thing is to set the dog up for success, which you need to really think about. 

I would find a trainer that advertises as positive, not balanced, and work with them. Much better than working off the internet - HOWEVER - what people are saying is definitely_ something to think about_ and I agree with them all (again - a lot of thinking is required with these kind of dogs). I have been in denial (or just blissfully unaware of the liability I was walking around with) before so understand it's hard to accept things about your dog. Beyond thinking, you need to do, all the time, and immediately, to help your dog.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I know you said you didn't want to use a muzzle, but what if you would try it with what you are already trying? I've never used a muzzle so I'm not sure if a dog can eat small treats with one on? If they can, maybe try that? It seems like he is great when treats are involved, so I would keep going with that. At least that way while you are trying to get him ok with strangers approaching, everyone is safe?


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## EquusAmor (Apr 2, 2013)

Why won't you try a muzzel? I have never had an aggressive dog so I have never had a need to use one, but if it came down to muzzel my dog to protect him/her from being put to sleep becasue somene intruded on her personal bubble or not muzzel him/her and risk lossing my dog for good. I would choose muzzel hands down. You love your dog right? You would do anything to protect her right? So why aren't you? I pray you listen to reason before your dog pays the price.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

People are not the smartest as you were able to trick 2 adults into feeding a dog that they knew bites. They will touch her specially if she looks like a typical sweet dog or shepherd. THey might even grab her. Adults or kids. With other colors people might not be so quick to pet but like you said everyone wants to pet yours. If you value your dog you can keep her safe so she lives a long life with you? Also a friend of mine had a personal protection mal who bite someone that kicked at it in a public park. The mal was off leash. My friend has faced 100 000's in court bills and also fines for the suffering of the person. He is being sued by the park itself. You will lose everything knowingly taking a dog like that in public. 

People that have personal protection dogs or dogs that are civil and bite should be normal in public and aloof if someone touches it the dog has to be balanced enough or stable enough to not latch onto the person. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for serious issues.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I wouldn't take this dog out into public until people can safely intrude on her "bubble" without fear of attack. I was at Petco yesterday and I can't tell you how many people walked within inches of my dog and put their hands into his personal space without even thinking about it or asking. People expect that, when you bring a dog into public, they are happy, balanced dogs or at least aloof enough to not care if someone walks within inches of them.

If they aren't, then I would expect that the dog wouldn't be in public until they are desensitized to those types of situations or at the very least, muzzled. A good, soft muzzle still allows them to eat small treats and drink water. You are setting your dog up for one heck of a fail if you continue in the same way you are. Unfortunately, the fail could cost the dog its life and you a whole ton of money and anguish. Take the advice of everyone here and invest in a very good trainer and a very good muzzle until you figure this out.


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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

The problem with saying you are responsible for your dogs actions, is that you really aren't. In public if your dog bites a stranger/kid and seriously injures them, your dog could be put to sleep. I worked at a shelter that took in a lot of bite cases and most of the time you have to put the dog to sleep, even if it was an accident. If your dog has a history of being aggressive towards strangers and you put him in situations where he could bite someone (like the 2 incidents you spoke of), it doesn't matter how "responsible" you are being in the law's eyes. They are going to look at that dog and say that dog is too much of a risk.

Everyone here is just trying to help. If you know your dog shows aggression and has tried to attack others, the responsible thing to do would be to use a muzzle just in case there is that one time where you can't stop him. Maybe there will never be that "one time" but you don't know that. By bringing a dog out in public, its your responsibility to make sure he won't harm anyone. You also have the responsibility to make sure your dog is comfortable and won't come in harms way. By leaving him open to possibly attack, you are putting him at risk for something he doesn't even understand - and that would be the laws that surround "dangerous dogs" and dogs that are put to sleep for injuring someone. 

My brother had a dog that sounds a lot like yours. She was the sweetest dog if you knew her, but she tried to lunge and attack a few people when he would take her for walks and try to introduce her to strangers. He eventually started using a muzzle to make sure she didn't have the opportunity to hurt someone. When his wife became pregnant, they tried intense training with different trainers, and nothing worked. She was just aggressive towards people she didn't know. He tried to find her a home but no one really wanted her. My mom tried to take the dog in (since the dog was very familiar and friendly with her and her dog). The first day she was there, the dog saw her stuff coming into the house and attacked my mom's dog pretty badly. It took her and my brother's friend to get the dog off her and stop her from attacking my mom. The dog ended up being put to sleep that day, because it wouldn't have survived in a shelter with the level of stranger aggression and no one was willing to give the dog a shot in a new home. My brother wasn't able to live with the fear that she would end up in a new home with someone who wasn't 100% experienced with aggressive dogs and possibly have that dog kill someone. Thats the real possibility - without proper owner training for aggressive dogs, the possibility of that dog killing someone is extremely high. At some point, if the dog can't further be trained to stop being aggressive, it becomes the owner's responsibility to ensure that every step is taken to prevent an attack from happening.

Good luck, and I hope you find something that works for you and your dog.


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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

pets4life said:


> Also a friend of mine had a personal protection mal who bite someone that kicked at it in a public park. The mal was off leash. My friend has faced 100 000's in court bills and also fines for the suffering of the person. He is being sued by the park itself. You will lose everything knowingly taking a dog like that in public.


There was also a case not too long ago where a service dog who was staying at a friend's house while the owner was away, attacked the people because they were beating him with a metal pole. The dog and owner lost the legal battle and the courts put the dog to sleep. Most of the time, the courts dont care WHY a dog bit....just that it did and its suddenly labelled as aggressive.

Even if you find a way out of it, you have to legally register your dog as a "dangerous dog" (in the US at least) and that in itself is extremely expensive and time consuming.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Are you thinking of muzzles where they keep the mouth shut and they can't drink or pant or eat? Because that's not what they mean. They have nice comfortable basket wire muzzles, where the dog can pant comfortably and drink. We have to use one for a short exercise in our French ring sport. It's no big deal. Just get your dog used to it slowly and use treats to introduce it. It could really protect her from losing her life and you a law suit over a bite. Plus keeps the public safe and she still gets to enjoy the outside world. It's not cruel, promise. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

You need something like this:
Royal Nappa Dog Leather Muzzle [M63##1073 Nappa Padded Muzzle] - $79.00 : Dog harness , Dog collar , Dog leash , Dog muzzle - Dog training equipment from Trusted Direct Source - Home, Dog Supplies
It is adjustable, you can leave it loose under chin and play ball in times. Give her certain command when rehersing conflict situation. Ask her to sit - dogs calm down in sitting or lying down position, tell her she is good. I would also suggest you to speak in low tunes at that moment.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

WoW is all I can say, If you know your dog has this personal bubble she protects by lunging and snapping I would not have her in public without a muzzle. 
I watch Frank with an Eagle eye while we're out but still am surprised at the people that as we walk by will reach out with their hand and run it down is back. Frank just keeps walking would yours? 
I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it, but even keeping as close an eye on him as I do there's always a chance Stupid adult or small child will step in and do something out of the blue. You have to protect your dog, to the other guy's lawyer he's just another big bad GSD.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

if you lived in a third world country it would have been okay as there are no bite laws in many of them and no one pets other peoples dogs specially not gsd's. But in North america we have to put up with obnoxious people no matter what. Even at the vet. The fact still that you just kinda let them treat your dog is a bit scary though, if u knew she was going to react like that. If i knew my dog would go after someone like that I wouldnt let people give them treats without a secure muzzle. There is no way you can not know about the breed or how much damage those jaws can do in a split second? What they are capable of? IT just seems so ridiculous that you did that. Then the wishy washy behavior after the fact on your part? Just seems so weird.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

KYH what kiind of dog did your brother own? the one who attacked your mom?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This dog has personal space issues, so keep strangers out of her personal space. Why does she have to accept being touched by strangers? She probably never will so I'd stop setting her up to bite people. Just manage her and keep people out of her space.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

keiko said:


> Because if you look at her she's a calm dog. Even kids want to pet her.


This is more dangerous than a dog who barks her head off, because she will go from being "calm" to wanting to rip into someone. 
Very little warning. 
I am thinking you are seeing the muzzle as some sort of punishment. 
It's not. 
And it may just calm you down, knowing she can't bite anyone with it on, and the confident vibes you send to her down the leash would be a lot better, too.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

People tend to avoid a dog with a muzzle which may be good for you. I would add a do not pet vest.

All it takes is ONE kid running up to your dog and getting bit. Nip the right kid with some well connected and aggressive parents, and your problems are gone forever. Do you really want to take that risk?

What is the issue with using a decent basket muzzle? I just don't understand. Dog can't bite but can pant and breathe and can even take treats through it. For some reason you are putting this up against the possible safety of other people thinking that you know your dog well enough and you are on guard well enough that it won't happen. Sounds like too close calls have happened as it is. Children are unpredictable. How will your dog react to a kid chasing a ball running smack dab into her before you can get out of the way? Or a toddler running up and throwing arms around her neck? It does happen. Parents are often out to lunch when it comes to their kids or think all kids are fluffy lovey things...you've seen the idiot youtube videos.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

keiko said:


> She has her invisible bubble and whenever a stranger bursts it, she attacks. Literally hair up, growling, and biting. Yesterday and today I had strangers she doesn't know feed her treats. She's ok when they're feeding her but the moment they stopped and tried to pet her, watch out!
> 
> She nearly bit the guy's hand yesterday (he was quick enough to pull away) but bit clean off a small portion of a lady's shirt today. Before both situations happened, I made sure both of them were dog people and they knew how aggressive she was beforehand.


She has told you quite clearly that she is not comfortable in this kind of situation, and yet you continue putting her into these situations over and over again. To me, this is a well meaning, but misguided socialization effort that is doing more harm than good. Good socialization would be a positive experience, keeping her calm and happy and under threshold, yet continually she's going over threshold, and getting the opportunity to practice bad behavior, which will only ingrain the habit. I'm not saying this to beat you up, I'm trying to help you understand that you're not helping her and are actually probably going to make her worse in the long run. 

If she's okay with people at a distance it would be better for YOU to feed her treats than to keep having other people feed her treats. And it actually boggles my mind that people are willing to get close enough to feed her when you've already warned them that she's aggressive! If she's not calm and relaxed in public with people at a distance, then she shouldn't even be out in public areas where you're going to inevitably stress her out - that is not going to get her over her fear, it will exacerbate. It can also harm your relationship with her because you're not heeding her warning signs that she's uncomfortable. If she can't trust you to keep her safe, then she's going to take matters into her own hands, and that's exactly what she's doing. 



keiko said:


> I walk downtown and busy trails and people come at us all the time, even close. Joggers, bikes, etc. She's just bad when one of them come to talk to me or tries to pet her. She might be bad when they're consistently alongside us, although that rarely happens.
> 
> Yeah doing the same walks regularly. She's used to being near people, just not with them in her face. With other dogs, she's a terror, although she's pretty calm with other dogs bark at her first.


Okay, she's used to it, but is she happy about it? Does she enjoy these walks or just tolerate them? Is she focused on you or is she scanning the environment, stressing about surrounding people or dogs?



keiko said:


> She had numerous encounters without incidence so from that I know her more than you do. If you had practical, non-repetitive, and non-condescending advice, I'd be more receptive. You said to muzzle my dog. I said no, I'll take a different approach. And so you start accusing me of not protecting my dog.


The advice is repetitive because there's a consensus that you should either muzzle her (for her own protection as well as other people), or you should not take her out in busy public places, because people and especially kids can be unpredictable. You asked for suggestions and those are the suggestions. The reality is that if you continue taking her out in public without a muzzle you _aren't_ protecting her. That's not an accusation, it's a simple fact. To really protect her you have to either take away her ability to bite (the muzzle) or manage her environment so she's never close enough to another person that she could bite them (no more walking downtown or on busy trails). I see no third option. 

I hope that you can get past the defensiveness and listen to what everyone is telling you. If she bites someone she could be euthanized. Since she's demonstrated that she is willing to do so, you MUST make sure that she is never in a situation where she has that opportunity again.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Looks like the barking at people has been going on for a long time, and has escalated to lunging and biting: 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/171992-dog-person-fake.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...g-my-child-barking-approaching-strangers.html


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Your dog is fearful and behaving aggressively as a result. Turning people into treat dispensers isn't the answer. You found out the results once the treats are gone. Muzzle your dog when you take her out in public. Its very simple. Your dog bites someone, its you who get landed with the bills and your dog pays the ultimate price. If you refuse to muzzle, don't take your dog out where she's a danger to others. 

Kids and the majority of the general public do NOT understand canine body language. Kids are innocent. They don't understand why the dog is mean, just that they are. Do you really want your dog to be the reason a child is scarred for life mentally and physically if she does manage to land a bite "on your watch"? The fact your dog has a bubble that if crossed into she lunges. That's not a stable dog.

People reach out and touch most often without permission. A STABLE dog shouldn't be lunging and trying to bite. Muzzle your dog in public or keep her at home. Protecting your dog is your responsibility but protecting others from your dog is also your responsibility.


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## MiaMoo (Apr 6, 2013)

I feel like the OP responses are going to stop at this point. I imagine they expected to be told ways to fix the behavior, and are not open to anything else. Which is sad, because the dog is ultimately going to suffer from this. 

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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

pets4life said:


> KYH what kiind of dog did your brother own? the one who attacked your mom?


She was a pit mix. My mom's dog was also a female pitbull so theres a possibility that may have had something to do with it, but the dog was always fine with her up until that point


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Today I came across someone like you at a lake in the forest. She had an off leash Cattle Dog with her, that seemed to enjoy hanging out with WD. The dogs got along fine and I started a conversation. The woman instructed me not to look at or pet her dog as she (the dog) would bite then. I left them alone immediately but walking slowly and told WD, "Come on let's go". She was p.o.-ed. 
I think it is irresponsible to walk a dog like that in public. Even with a muzzle on they can scare to cr*p out of dogs and people. Don't we all know people who are afraid of dogs that scared them to death as a kid even though they weren't bitten?


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## Swifty (May 11, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Today I came across someone like you at a lake in the forest. She had an off leash Cattle Dog with her, that seemed to enjoy hanging out with WD. The dogs got along fine and I started a conversation. The woman instructed me not to look at or pet her dog as she (the dog) would bite then. I left them alone immediately but walking slowly and told WD, "Come on let's go". She was p.o.-ed.
> I think it is irresponsible to walk a dog like that in public. Even with a muzzle on they can scare to cr*p out of dogs and people. Don't we all know people who are afraid of dogs that scared them to death as a kid even though they weren't bitten?


I had my Golden, Sasha, off leash on my property and a couple of girls walked by. Sasha _loves_ people and will sometimes ignore me to go say hello which isn't normally a problem since there's virtually no traffic in the area and Goldens enjoy such a sweet reputation anyway, but one of the girls screamed as Sasha trotted up (with her tail wagging her butt the whole way) and tried to jump onto the back of her friend.

Since then I've included Sasha in the training I've been doing with my GSD to keep her from greeting strangers indiscriminately like that  You just never know people's reaction to dogs.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also would not be taking a dog like that out in public until you are educated on how to read the dog and its more conditioned around people. fear or proctective, the dog needs to be corrected for the behavior. no dog should be allowed to act on its own when these issues are present. you need to be calling the shots and your dog needs to be trained to look to you for decisions. also its not fair to put your dog into a situation like this when you know what could potentially happen. you need to back up and start conditioning under controlled cicumstance preferably with a professional that can see what your doing and what your dogs doing and teach you how to handle him in these situations. i have a dog like this and i have worked hard with training/conditioning. he is never allowed to go ahead and meet a stranger, he is put through obedience steps in the situation first. going on like you are is a time bomb. please get some professional help with your dog. its well worth the money if you seriously want to work with this problem.


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## k4stles (May 15, 2013)

maybe you could try muzzle her and taking her to a place not so crowded to start with. then, you could ask strangers to pet her. maybe she needs a little bit more of socialization. i know you could think a muzzle sounds cruel, but it is just because you need to prevent any awkward situation and at the same time she needs to be socialized. in any case, aggressive GSDs, either because of fear or protection, are always dangerous. they have this instinct to protect in case someone really wants to hurt you, and that's the key of training, but it's just not fair someone get bitten just for petting her. you could lose your dog, and it would be far worse than muzzle her. but if you refuse to muzzle her you could also tell to people not to touch her cause she's aggressive. just don't put friendly hands in danger.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Today I came across someone like you at a lake in the forest. She had an off leash Cattle Dog with her, that seemed to enjoy hanging out with WD. The dogs got along fine and I started a conversation. The woman instructed me not to look at or pet her dog as she (the dog) would bite then. I left them alone immediately but walking slowly and told WD, "Come on let's go". She was p.o.-ed.
> I think it is irresponsible to walk a dog like that in public. Even with a muzzle on they can scare to cr*p out of dogs and people. Don't we all know people who are afraid of dogs that scared them to death as a kid even though they weren't bitten?




Why was she pissed off? Same thing happened to me, it was 2 of those dogs i don't know how to spell them boviour? They went after me I was just trying to walk by with my dog in a off leash trails. THey actually stared me down and both charged me. I was lucky my dog jumped on the first dogs head and put it in a lock, then started snarling and slobbering/spitting all over the other dogs head it was strange, but it got them to back off and quiet. At that time I did not think my dog would do that or even do anything I was in shock. I think people get a huge rise out of scaring other people. It is scary as **** if I was alone. The other dogs did not know I was with another dog at first. THe owner was just standing there saying nothing like they were waiting for people to pass them.

But then some know a dog is aggressive and want to mess with it.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi gang, thanks for your assistance and advice, which was what I asked for in the first place. Just want you to know that I wasn't ignoring you all, just was busy on other things but not before I placed an order for a muzzle after the first discussion. Today I received it -- a fully padded "freedom" wire muzzle. I guess freedom being she can open her mouth. i got the fully padded one because the regular freedom design didn't look too comfy. Anyway, I tried it on her and it fits good. Had treats to train her to get used to it. She first tried to get it off but now she's getting used to it. Thanks again.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

MiaMoo said:


> I feel like the OP responses are going to stop at this point. I imagine they expected to be told ways to fix the behavior, and are not open to anything else. Which is sad, because the dog is ultimately going to suffer from this.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Nope still here. My girl will be ok, see my last post above.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

keiko said:


> Hi gang, thanks for your assistance and advice, which was what I asked for in the first place. Just want you to know that I wasn't ignoring you all, just was busy on other things but not before I placed an order for a muzzle after the first discussion. Today I received it -- a fully padded "freedom" wire muzzle. I guess freedom being she can open her mouth. i got the fully padded one because the regular freedom design didn't look too comfy. Anyway, I tried it on her and it fits good. Had treats to train her to get used to it. She first tried to get it off but now she's getting used to it. Thanks again.


Awesome!! 


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Put on her muzzle and let her off the leash in the park. Concentrate on one thing only - your command "heel", don't pay attention to anything she is trying to attack on the way. It is also good to ask her to sit, they calm down being put into a sitting position, ask her to sit every time you notices changes in her behaviour towards agressive.
I wonder, who has suggested taking her to stranges? Mad. Reading it from your dog's point of view: "My darling partner is teaching me to commit robbery. But she is never happy with me. Why?"


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> Awesome!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah taking it slow for her. I'm just glad she has a muzzle that isn't too restrictive.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> Put on her muzzle and let her off the leash in the park. Concentrate on one thing only - your command "heel", don't pay attention to anything she is trying to attack on the way. It is also good to ask her to sit, they calm down being put into a sitting position, ask her to sit every time you notices changes in her behaviour towards agressive.
> I wonder, who has suggested taking her to stranges? Mad. Reading it from your dog's point of view: "My darling partner is teaching me to commit robbery. But she is never happy with me. Why?"


That's a good idea. Although wouldn't I expose her to similar situations even if muzzled? I was thinking of still leashing her. Thoughts?


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> This is more dangerous than a dog who barks her head off, because she will go from being "calm" to wanting to rip into someone.
> Very little warning.
> I am thinking you are seeing the muzzle as some sort of punishment.
> It's not.
> And it may just calm you down, knowing she can't bite anyone with it on, and the confident vibes you send to her down the leash would be a lot better, too.


Great points. She now has a comfy muzzle!


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> a muzzle is practical. where was i repetitive? i'm not being
> condescending. i'm straight to the point. i didn't accuse you
> of not protecting your dog. telling you to protect your means
> don't put your dog in situations where she can be aggressive
> ...


Sorry if I sounded argumentative, I just needed time to think about it. I ordered a muzzle later on that day so thanks!


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> She has told you quite clearly that she is not comfortable in this kind of situation, and yet you continue putting her into these situations over and over again. To me, this is a well meaning, but misguided socialization effort that is doing more harm than good. Good socialization would be a positive experience, keeping her calm and happy and under threshold, yet continually she's going over threshold, and getting the opportunity to practice bad behavior, which will only ingrain the habit. I'm not saying this to beat you up, I'm trying to help you understand that you're not helping her and are actually probably going to make her worse in the long run.
> 
> If she's okay with people at a distance it would be better for YOU to feed her treats than to keep having other people feed her treats. And it actually boggles my mind that people are willing to get close enough to feed her when you've already warned them that she's aggressive! If she's not calm and relaxed in public with people at a distance, then she shouldn't even be out in public areas where you're going to inevitably stress her out - that is not going to get her over her fear, it will exacerbate. It can also harm your relationship with her because you're not heeding her warning signs that she's uncomfortable. If she can't trust you to keep her safe, then she's going to take matters into her own hands, and that's exactly what she's doing.
> 
> ...


Thanks, excellent points!


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> People tend to avoid a dog with a muzzle which may be good for you. I would add a do not pet vest.
> 
> All it takes is ONE kid running up to your dog and getting bit. Nip the right kid with some well connected and aggressive parents, and your problems are gone forever. Do you really want to take that risk?
> 
> What is the issue with using a decent basket muzzle? I just don't understand. Dog can't bite but can pant and breathe and can even take treats through it. For some reason you are putting this up against the possible safety of other people thinking that you know your dog well enough and you are on guard well enough that it won't happen. Sounds like too close calls have happened as it is. Children are unpredictable. How will your dog react to a kid chasing a ball running smack dab into her before you can get out of the way? Or a toddler running up and throwing arms around her neck? It does happen. Parents are often out to lunch when it comes to their kids or think all kids are fluffy lovey things...you've seen the idiot youtube videos.


Yeah having a muzzle takes care of me having to explain why people shouldn't pet her so great points!


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

CeCe said:


> One of my dogs is like yours and she is always muzzled in public. This is mainly to protect her. She doesn't lunge at people but if someone were to touch her she could bite and I wouldn't want her to get put down for that. We use a Baskerville muzzle and when people come our way she knows to look and focus on me and she gets a treat. You just never know when someone is going to touch your dog unexpectedly- a man once came up behind me while I had my normal dog in a sit at a stoplight and he hugged her. He would have been bitten had it been my shy dog. if people ask why she has a muzzle I just say that she eats rocks, it's not a big deal.


I actually tried on the baskerville at petco and her snout was way too long so we ended up getting something just as comfy if not more so. So thanks for the suggestion


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yay !! I like happy endings.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Taggart said:


> Put on her muzzle and let her off the leash in the park.


Personally, I would not recommend letting her off leash, I think this is very bad advice. The muzzle is a great first step, so glad you decided to give it a try, but I think keeping her under your direct control is still a priority, and there's just no way to do that if she's off leash.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> yay !! I like happy endings.


I always try to do what's right for my girl


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

It's great that the OP listened to good advice. Kudos!

I recommend GSD people to visit schutzhund clubs, SDA clubs, ring, etc. training sessions and trials for more than one reason. One of the reasons is you can see how experienced dog people act around dogs. You won't see people trying to hug dogs or even touch them unless they have known the dog for months. You will see people keeping a respectful distance from dogs they don't know and basically ignoring them no matter how much of a dog person they are. You will see children who have been taught by their parents how to act around dogs. You will see people that have dogs on a leash not using their dogs as a means to be popular with other people.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It sounds like you are very dedicated to her. I too would add to the "don't let her run loose" ........ everything else aside she could get it caught on something or another dog could get tooth caught etc causing a major freak-out and set back.

I love basket muzzles. Used mine when the dogs had bandaged surgeries intead of an elizabethan collar or the bite-not. Not so good without a bandage because the dog will still irritate the stiches by rubbing. 

We muzzled Beau at our last vet trip. He had zero issues but they were doing a prostate exam and pulling a draw from the jugular vein for blood testing (maybe that is more common these days?) and the vet was so much more comfortable. So was I. I think I will just make it SOP.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm also glad you are dedicated enough to be open minded about the muzzle. 

GOOD for you!!!! 

My female is terrified of my vet (the only thing she's terrified of!), so I always muzzle her, anyone else at the clinic can do whatever they want to her without the muzzle.

I don't particularly 'like' doing it, nor have I ever had a dog that I had to muzzle with my vet, but better safe than sorry..

Kudos to you..I hope things go better for you both


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I really think if the dog does not see the muzzle as a bad thing and learns to accept it, it is so bad.


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