# "Extreme" Drives -- Good or Bad?



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

About a month ago, someone PM'ed me asking about Medo's breeder...but having forgot about the PM, I just got around to replying. One of the questions was if his drives were "extreme" or not. Now, I am the type of person that feels "extreme" anything is a negative trait. I want a dog with high drives, high motivation, a high desire to please...but any time you get into the category of what you would describe as "extreme" suddenly becomes a negative. Example: I don't want a dog to have such "extreme" ball drive that if there is one in the vicinity of the field their brain detaches and the dog is incapable of getting into a clear-headed working mode ...would apply to anything, not just a ball (and yes I've seen this in some form of another).

The person replied to me that they decided to go with a Malinois because they tended to be more "extreme" than GSD's. Obvious personal preference, but mayday alerts started going off in my head







The first thing I think of...all the NICE (in my opinion) Malinois I've been around (American Working Mal IPO 3 Champion, N. American Ring 1 Champion, etc) are those that I would classify as "high" drive, but certainly not "extreme." The ones I consider to be "extreme" are those that make me completely cringe when I see them work because they seem completely out of control with little regard for applying any kind of rational throught process to anything they do. Most definitely not my cup of tea...

I just thought the PM would yield a very interesting conversation...not even so much about "extreme" Mals vs. GSD's, but even "extreme" drives for a GSD. How do you view the term "extreme?" Negatively like I do, or something desirable? Take the conversation where you want!

I will say I'm not sure if this individual (totally hypothesizing here!) THINKS they want an "extreme" dog because they have had dogs they have had to work their butt off to bring out drive and a lot of motivation to work? Or if they just want to put their sanity on the line


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

To me "extreme" is very subjective, all depends on what you want to do with the dog, and the person handling the dogs experience.
I have one dog that to me is just high drive, but I love him, a friend of mine would call him "extreme", and in fact rehomed a dog she had that to me had the same drive, but she said it was too much for her. 
So I don't see it as a negative unless the person owning and handling the dog is having issues.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm not really talking about this from a subjective "one person's extreme is another person's low drive dog" point of view. I'm talking about the positive and negative connotations with breeding "extreme" dogs and if they have a place in any breed. Are extremes ever ideal?

We're going to to make an assumption when I say "extreme" I am talking about calling up someone like Michael Ellis and telling him you want the most "extreme" dog he currently has.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

In that case, I think there are places for those dogs when they do appear, but as a rule to breed for any type of "extreme" is not good.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Extreme dogs can be very nice in the right hands. The exact same way a Ferrari can be brutally fast around a racetrack in skilled hands, but will punish those who lack skill. Extreme in only one aspect is more dangerous than extreme across the board. Going with the car example, consider the Ferrari and a Dodge Viper. The viper has the biggest engine they can cram in it. It has incredable power and torque to the point of being almost undrivable like driving on ice. So much so that turning performance, track times, etc are negatively effected. In a mal, I see this with prey. They prey is so so high but without balanced aggression, that the dog *cant* show aggression simply b/c the prey is "too loud". People often mistake this for confidence... Which isn't to say the dog is not confident, but just that we can't get that extremely high prey down low enough to even evaluate the nature od their aggression


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

Most of what you'll get will be personal opinions I think. I feel that when you start breeding for something over-the-top and extreme, you begin to risk losing balance by compromising things in other areas. I think breeding, especially with the variety of lines in this breed, will always produce different dogs with different drives, thresholds, nerve, biddibility, etc, all of which can be used to balance out any dog you feel needs to produce less or more of something. To actually go out and breed for extreme anything, I suspect you'll start running into deficits that crop up in other areas. Maybe this is everyones problem with specialty breeders, such as those who breed strictly for sport. Sure they're show stoppers on the field but what about when you bring that animal home and ask it to live its life as a companion animal. 

My dog is high drive, has good nerve, grips, downs at the articles, pays attention when i say Fuss, and generally does what I ask her to do. She doesn't chomp down on the sleeve like a monster, she doesn't track like a robot, and she doesn't sail through the air on the long bite... But she very versatile, and I know I can take her off the schutzhund field and into any holiday family function, downtown parade, or just hang with her at the house and not even think twice of "is this a good idea, will she be ok?". There's a lot of value in that for me.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think 'extreme' is subject to opinon. A person who raises a puppy with a relative high drive in a specific area (food, toy etc.) but has never handled a dog with a focused drive, might consider it 'extreme'. 

A person who actively participates in something like flyball might not consider the dog's drive level as extreme. 

To me, the drive in a dog could be measured in the handlers ability to switch the dog off and the time/training it takes to create the switch.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

abakerrr said:


> Most of what you'll get will be personal opinions I think. I feel that when you start breeding for something over-the-top and extreme, you begin to risk losing balance by compromising things in other areas. I think breeding, especially with the variety of lines in this breed, will always produce different dogs with different drives, thresholds, nerve, biddibility, etc, all of which can be used to balance out any dog you feel needs to produce less or more of something. To actually go out and breed for extreme anything, I suspect you'll start running into deficits that crop up in other areas. Maybe this is everyones problem with specialty breeders, such as those who breed strictly for sport. Sure they're show stoppers on the field but what about when you bring that animal home and ask it to live its life as a companion animal.
> 
> My dog is high drive, has good nerve, grips, downs at the articles, pays attention when i say Fuss, and generally does what I ask her to do. She doesn't chomp down on the sleeve like a monster, she doesn't track like a robot, and she doesn't sail through the air on the long bite... But she very versatile, and I know I can take her off the schutzhund field and into any holiday family function, downtown parade, or just hang with her at the house and not even think twice of "is this a good idea, will she be ok?". There's a lot of value in that for me.


A super nice IPO or PPD dog does not imply they are a time bomb to have in public. Hate it when people imply that


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

hunterisgreat said:


> A super nice IPO or PPD dog does not imply they are a time bomb to have in public. Hate it when people imply that


Right, but a super nice IPO or PPD doesn't necessarily have to be 'extreme'.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

abakerrr said:


> Right, but a super nice IPO or PPD doesn't necessarily have to be 'extreme'.



More objectively: 
A dog that chomps down on the sleeve like a monster, tracks like a robot, and sails through the air on the long bite does not imply they are a time bomb to have in public.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

GSDElsa said:


> Example: I don't want a dog to have such "extreme" ball drive that if there is one in the vicinity of the field their brain detaches and the dog is incapable of getting into a clear-headed working mode ...would apply to anything, not just a ball (and yes I've seen this in some form of another).
> 
> The ones I consider to be "extreme" are those that make me completely cringe when I see them work because they seem completely out of control with little regard for applying any kind of rational throught process to anything they do. Most definitely not my cup of tea...
> 
> ...


This is how I also view an extreme dog. I find them very - doggy - in that they have been bred to be a stimulus-response machine, and I don't think dogs are supposed to be that. I also don't think it shows much good about us, that we need or desire a dog that requires little more than stimulus-response, that we can't think either (or don't want to for various reasons), to train a dog that isn't like this. 

At the flyball tournaments I've gone to I have seen dogs who are totally focused on the game/sport and excel, like Caja's Mom's dogs from Lee, but who can also lay down and pose for a picture right by the dogs running. Then you see the dogs that some teams pull out of crates, carry to the start line and are just unable to to be a dog in any other way, because they are bred to be a flyball machine. 

Reminds me of Morgan horses in the Park classes. They started to want bigger, flashier horses, sneaking other breeds in to achieve it and ended up with big flashy Morgans in name only. Humans can take something good and mess it up so easily, when thinking only of ourselves and not balancing out our wants.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Define extreme. 

I have a friend that wants a dog with such crazy drive that it would run off a cliff after a ball. This I would consider extreme because the dog has lost its ability to think and for self preservation. I may not, though, consider what others describe to be extreme.

I know what you mean about the Morgans Jean, but it wasn't just the park horses. My parents had Morgans and I had Saddlebreds. Always figured that if people wanted the latter they should have purchased the latter and not tried to alter the former. Funny, they actually created a more extreme animal out of the Morgan than the Saddlebred ever was. I believe this way about GSD and Mals too. Don't turn my GSD into a Mal.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would define extreme as an animal that is no longer able to think or function as a working dog. Not sure if that makes sense, but not sure how else to describe what I mean. See my example above about the dog that would kill itself, literally, over a ball.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't want extreme, at least not if it's like the ones I have seen as i_*t seems their drive begins to override other basic instincts*_ (that would be *my* definition of extreme) that I value, like the ability to troubleshoot/think/assess a situation before just acting/reacting, self-preservation instinct, working out of a close bond with the handler, etc. I would consider Nikon medium drive and Pan high drive (but Pan is much lower threshold so easier to push - accidentally or intentionally - into that level of his mind blowing and being over loaded which can dance the line of "extreme" that I don't like). To me "extreme" is like if a dog has so much ball drive you throw the ball off the cliff and over he goes. I don't like it but I don't have anything against it if that's what people want. I know who Lisa is talking about and that person is a skilled trainer with a very specific type of dog in mind, that is what she likes to train and keep and has the right experience and home setup to do so. For me, it doesn't work because I do a lot of other things with my dogs where "extreme" just becomes counter-productive or even unsafe, and it just personally drives me nuts.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Define extreme.
> 
> I have a friend that wants a dog with such crazy drive that it would run off a cliff after a ball. This I would consider extreme because the dog has lost its ability to think and for self preservation. I may not, though, consider what others describe to be extreme.
> 
> I know what you mean about the Morgans Jean, but it wasn't just the park horses. My parents had Morgans and I had Saddlebreds. Always figured that if people wanted the latter they should have purchased the latter and not tried to alter the former. Funny, they actually created a more extreme animal out of the Morgan than the Saddlebred ever was. I believe this way about GSD and Mals too. Don't turn my GSD into a Mal.


I would get a mal if it was a KNPV like, high aggression mal. I think its all about balance. If the prey is 4 out of a scale of 1 to 10, aggression needs to be around that too. If the prey is 12 out of 1 to 10, the aggression needs to be around that too. I think the dogs that have crazy high prey relative to aggression is part of why you see so many mal's that refuse to out (outside of training errors). I've worked mals that are stupid high prey that will not out the sleeve after slipping, while downing with their back to *me* facing their handler, prepping for the handler-dog out-battle. I can even yell and whip at the dog and all they want is that prey. Higher aggression would make the significance of the sleeve diminish in and of itself. THAT being said, if you have a dog with 12 out of 1-10 in all drives and all measures, then you must be a very good trainer or handler... just the way I would only hand the keys to a Ferrari to a season'ed race car driver, not a 16 year old kid or my grandma.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't want extreme, at least not if it's like the ones I have seen as i_*t seems their drive begins to override other basic instincts*_ (that would be *my* definition of extreme) that I value, like the ability to troubleshoot/think/assess a situation before just acting/reacting, self-preservation instinct, working out of a close bond with the handler, etc. I would consider Nikon medium drive and Pan high drive (but Pan is much lower threshold so easier to push - accidentally or intentionally - into that level of his mind blowing and being over loaded which can dance the line of "extreme" that I don't like). To me "extreme" is like if a dog has so much ball drive you throw the ball off the cliff and over he goes. I don't like it but I don't have anything against it if that's what people want. I know who Lisa is talking about and that person is a skilled trainer with a very specific type of dog in mind, that is what she likes to train and keep and has the right experience and home setup to do so. For me, it doesn't work because I do a lot of other things with my dogs where "extreme" just becomes counter-productive or even unsafe, and it just personally drives me nuts.


Their drives **are** their most basic instincts!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

i_*t seems their drive begins to override other basic components of life*_ (that would be *my* definition of extreme) that I value, like the ability to troubleshoot/think/assess a situation before just acting/reacting, self-preservation instinct, working out of a close bond with the handler, etc.

There better?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> i_*t seems their drive begins to override other basic components of life*_ (that would be *my* definition of extreme) that I value, like the ability to troubleshoot/think/assess a situation before just acting/reacting, self-preservation instinct, working out of a close bond with the handler, etc.
> 
> There better?


Yes better, but still incomplete. Certain aspects of drive are instinctual behaviors that override everything else, and this is present in all dogs. An example being prey-thrashing. If a dog picks up the sleeve/ball/a bunny/whatever and begins violently thrashing, you can correct however hard you wish with whatever tool you wish and the dog will ignore it, like banging on your keyboard when the computer has frozen or given you the hourglass... then when that behaviour has run its course, abruptly your dog will feel the (probably very hard at this point) corrections and they will have been too hard and caused unintended results... just like banging on your keyboard. Eventually when the computer "thinks again" you open 20 programs, click links you didn't mean, and muck stuff up


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, sometimes people want something because they want it without ever knowing exactly what it is they are wanting. Know what I mean? Then they don't know how to handle what they thought they wanted. You know the saying, "be careful what you wish for".


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I would define extreme as an animal that is no longer able to think or function as a working dog. Not sure if that makes sense, but not sure how else to describe what I mean. See my example above about the dog that would kill itself, literally, over a ball.


 
Yes, that's also what I think of as "extreme."


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

lhczth said:


> You know the saying, "be careful what you wish for".


Sooooooooooo true!


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Liesje said:


> i_*t seems their drive begins to override other basic components of life*_ (that would be *my* definition of extreme) that I value, like the ability to troubleshoot/think/assess a situation before just acting/reacting, self-preservation instinct, working out of a close bond with the handler, etc.
> 
> There better?


Totally agree. Minka has lots of ball and tug drive but she is great at getting the ball without injuring herself and can still think when other is on the field while training. In agility she is excited to work but never gets into that crazy hectic state that I see in some of the other dogs I train with where they are running their own course, jumping and barking at their handler, etc. Minka is what I would describe as a busy dog when she is allowed to hang out in the yard but she is not destructive in the house. I love working her because she is energetic, responsive and extremely clear headed. 


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

"Other" should be "either" but don't know how to edit from my phone.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> You know the saying, "be careful what you wish for".


LOL!!!

What's funny to me though is how people label extreme across breeds/venues. Some of the people I do flyball with (who don't really train or compete in anything else and usually own much smaller dogs that are pets) label dogs "extreme drive" that I see is being more medium drive *but* very hyper/hectic. I know one dog like this who is really not impressive to me at all in terms of drive but is just rather hectic all the time, part of it is the dog and part is how the owner handles the dog. Every time the dog is described as being such wonderfully extreme drive I'm just like yeah OK whatever you say.... and then I have a mental picture of a GSD, Dutchie, or Mali that will dive through plate glass and sprint across flaming coals for a twig that the handler is waving. To me "drive" is what lengths that dog will go to to act on prey or ball or aggression or food or whatever drive we're talking about. A lot of these hectic dogs are also just low threshold dogs. Many are actually soft and sometimes nervy so they wouldn't go to such great lengths to maintain chasing an object in prey drive but their trigger for starting the chase and the point at which they lose their mind is really low.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

LOL Yes, I always find it pretty funny what people call extreme or even high drive. Yes, most are medium drive dogs that lack good nerves.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

And also funny, they are just like their handlers. I guess I'm a rather "blah" handler, I like to get the job done correctly and I don't like surprises. I am there to show the work I've done but am not that competitive. I like my dog to G or SG and don't usually have the patience to finesse V scores and podium awards. I also don't like to be surprised during a trial so for me success is getting the job done *and* getting scored/placed where I expected going in. I'm realistic, I always like to know where I stand, it does not discourage me or make me nervous to know that my dog is not going to get 100points in certain phases and I don't need to talk myself up in order to show well, what I'm looking for is consistency in my handling and the dog's performance. For that I do not want or need "extreme" anything.

The dogs I see described as "extreme drive" that are more medium drive, low threshold, hectic dogs have similar handlers, the kind that are always running around screaming, either way too upset or way too obsessed with their dog's performance. Not talking about SchH but just in general (flyball, agility, obedience....you name it the dogs might be different but how things play out is pretty much the same from sport to sport).


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

lhczth said:


> LOL Yes, I always find it pretty funny what people call extreme or even high drive. Yes, most are medium drive dogs that lack good nerves.


But, some of it could just be lack of point of reference. If you get a medium drive dog, play ball or tug with him, not really compete in anything where the "high drive dogs go to play" you might think hey my dog is sooo intense and sooo high drive, because your point of reference is your own experience, maybe some pet types you see being walked and in dog runs, and just honestly dogs that have had nothing but daily walks and their drives were never developed... so sometimes yes it's definitely nerves, other times could be just a lack of reference...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Back to "be careful what you wish for." 

My SchH club hosted a seminar the summer that attracted a lot of AKC obedience people (structure seminar). About halfway through the course, a woman raised her hand wanting to know what to do about her absolutely INSANE 14 week old Malinois puppy that would not start biting her. She was quite distraught about the moster she had in her care. *gasp* all these AKC OB people start giving her all these pointers...squirt mouthwash in it's mouth, yell, scruff....but she absolutely HAD to stop this horrendous behavior now.

I, in my infinite snottiness, said "the puppy is doing what you want it to do.....she got a Malinois who does what it's supposed to. Learn to redirect it, not stifle it." Of course I was told I was told to "stop making excuses." After the incident I come to find out that this woman had always had either rescues or showline Mals who were fairly blah in obedience. They could get the titles, but she wanted to be competitive. So she goes to a very good Mal breeder who happened to be have a top-end ring sport litter on the ground. The woman says she wants a high drive working Malinois........

Funny at even 14 weeks of age she was figured out she "wished" for the wrong thing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

remember that extreme has two ends , high and low . too much and essentially none at all. Either end requires a great deal of energy to make it useful.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Lies, sometimes people want something because they want it without ever knowing exactly what it is they are wanting. Know what I mean? Then they don't know how to handle what they thought they wanted. You know the saying, "be careful what you wish for".


This is what happened with Katya. She is higher prey than Jäger, and moves about twice as fast. 6 months in I was questioning my decision to get her and it took me some time to learn how to handle her well. Like learning how to drive a sports car by getting a Ferrari, Katya "put me in the wall" many times before I figured out how to handle her.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

hunterisgreat said:


> More objectively:
> A dog that chomps down on the sleeve like a monster, tracks like a robot, and sails through the air on the long bite does not imply they are a time bomb to have in public.


No it doesn't and that's not the direction I was going with that. I think there's a very distinct difference between having a dog with these attributes and breeding specifically for these attributes. I want a dog capable of DOING the sport, not bred FOR the sport (grips, over the top anything). I feel like when you start breeding for any one thing in particular, other aspects will suffer.

The beauty in this breed lies within the notion that it was designed to be a utility dog that thinks before it does. Extreme dogs, IMO, lack the ability to think and just DO. This is grossly different than a dog that just has high drives.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Depends on the definition of "extreme". Like the AKC Malinois lady example, I'm sure even my lowest drive dog would be considered extreme by people who are not familiar or comfortable with drive. And my highest drive one would be absolutely psychotic.

By my definition of extreme, none of them are. Heidi is close with regard to prey, but still not what I'd consider truly extreme.

To me, extreme is when the drive is all encompassing and overrides other things. If the dog is so strong in one drive that it is a constant default behavior and other drives cannot be accessed, it is extreme. Likewise if the drive overpowers everything else to the point where the dog looses clarity and cannot think, respond, problem solve or exercise good judgment when in drive, then it is extreme. Now admitedly, environment and training can play a big part here both in terms of getting drives out of balance and in terms of overload. But it still takes the existance of a genetic tendency toward those for the environment to be able to manifest it. Though really these things are often more related to the nerve base of the dog than to the actual drive level. I've known hectic, frantic dogs, or dogs who overloaded easily who's drive was really only about a 5 on a 1-10 scale. And I've known some very clear headed 10s.

By my definition of extreme, it is not something that I want personally and I do not consider it correct. A GSD without balance and clear headedness is not a good GSD.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

abakerrr said:


> No it doesn't and that's not the direction I was going with that. I think there's a very distinct difference between having a dog with these attributes and breeding specifically for these attributes. I want a dog capable of DOING the sport, not bred FOR the sport (grips, over the top anything). I feel like when you start breeding for any one thing in particular, other aspects will suffer.
> 
> The beauty in this breed lies within the notion that it was designed to be a utility dog that thinks before it does. Extreme dogs, IMO, lack the ability to think and just DO. This is grossly different than a dog that just has high drives.


You are correct that breeding to one trait creates unbalanced dogs. But a balanced dog with what most would call extreme drive levels can still be just as sound and stable. I believe it is the balance that makes for the stability


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I haven't read through this whole thread, but to me a dog that can't function is not a dog that is extreme in drive. That to me, is a dog that is not clear headed. I have known a few malinois that I would consider "extreme" but the clarity was astonishing! It was especially evident in bite work. Now this one particular dog also had a very good handler that was also very clear with the dog, so that has a lot to do with it.

I have also known dogs that IMO were not "extreme" but could not function in any kind of a state of drive, they get amped and their brain goes out the window. Some people think "oh wow, that dog is just so high drive they cant even think!" When really I would say they are medium drive dog with a total lack of clarity.

I would consider Havoc on the "extreme" side of drive because he would literally work at the same intensity and energy level until he passed out. He will work in absolutely any environment, under any conditions with the exact same intensity. To me its kind of unnatural and that is why I consider him to be a bit on the "extreme" side. Fortunately he is VERY clear and he can think very well in that state of drive. I personally don't really see need for that much drive, a dog can get the job done with a little less. Don't get me wrong I LOVE high drive! But I have also found it pretty tough to learn how to handle Havoc, I can't even begin to tell you how many times i have been injured training him! Bad tug presentation with a med-high drive dog won't mean you have to take a few days off of training due to injury, just sayin.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Depends on the definition of "extreme". Like the AKC Malinois lady example, I'm sure even my lowest drive dog would be considered extreme by people who are not familiar or comfortable with drive. And my highest drive one would be absolutely psychotic.
> 
> By my definition of extreme, none of them are. Heidi is close with regard to prey, but still not what I'd consider truly extreme.
> 
> ...


So would you agree that you can breed ever higher drive dogs so long as the balance is there. I.e. easily transition between drives? Dogs that "don't turn off" I see as just very low threshold to activation of a drive, which is a separate matter. Seen low drive dogs that struggle to turn off what little they had, and extreme drive dogs that take a fair amount of stimulus to trigger their response


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Seen low drive dogs that struggle to turn off what little they had, and extreme drive dogs that take a fair amount of stimulus to trigger their response


I find that very confusing. How can an "extreme" drive dog (or even high or med drive) need a great deal of stimulus to trigger a response?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I guess for me the word "extreme" has a negative connotation, but as several people have said, not everyone has the same definition of what extreme IS.

I'm not sure I totally agree with the ball off a cliff example though, I'm pretty sure Halo would do that, but I don't consider her at all extreme, she's just really, REALLY into balls. I'm not even sure if she's "high" drive - certainly for ME she is, but that could have more to do with the fact that she's my first working line GSD, I have no idea how she compares to other working line dogs. For all I know she might only be medium drive. 

When I get her into the lane for flyball she's SCREAMING in anticipation, and trying to lunge forward while I'm restraining her, but she's one of the few dogs who is perfectly quiet and calm out of the ring, hanging out in her crate, and she has no trouble just chilling around the house.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

KristiM said:


> I find that very confusing. How can an "extreme" drive dog (or even high or med drive) need a great deal of stimulus to trigger a response?


Because here you're getting into thresholds and an on/off switch. I don't think that Hunter is right in the sense that the low drive dog who seemingly can't "turn it off" is really just a low drive dog with energy who can't sit still.....not really anything to do with turning a drive off. More the inability to turn it's brain off.

Thresholds....think of the dog who loses their mind at training in the crate or goes insane at the mere glimpse of the helper on the field. Low threshold (other things going on here as well, low threshold being one) vs. the dog who doesn't react to the helper until the helper presents a threat would be a high threshold.

They might have the same intensity guarding in the blind, but the process to get turned on is very different. Although in my experience those insanely low threshold dogs who can't contain themselves even just being AT a training field as usually the frantic, hectic screamers as well........

IMO extreme ANYTHING will manifest itself in a bad way...and I do think it's all tied in in one way or the other....extreme drives to extreme thresholds, etc....if the balance isn't there it will come through negatively somewhere.

As an aside I would not consider your dog extreme from the way you describe him...just the way a GSD should be. Great drives and able to work through anything with a clear head


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO when an animal's drive will result in its own extintion then that is pretty darn extreme.  

Yes, I think extreme in many cases goes along with a lack of clarity. The dogs have no longer been bred for balance (as Hunter said earlier). Yes, I think dogs can have very high drives and still have clarity and balance. I would not consider these dogs, though, extreme even if I might use that term when describing them.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

hunterisgreat said:


> So would you agree that you can breed ever higher drive dogs so long as the balance is there.


In theory, perhaps. But reality is that it just doesn't work that way.

Balance is very easily and quickly lost when trying to add more and more and more drive. Drive is easy to add to breedings. Finding the nerve to properly control and contain that drive is not. Things very easily and quickly get out of whack and the drive takes control, overriding the thinking part of the brain. Happens all the time, and is happening quite frequently with this breed unfortunately. 

There is a maximum amount of "current" that a dog's brain can handle. Even a dog of the strongest nerves. Go over that amount, and things short circuit.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lhczth said:


> IMO when an animal's drive will result in its own extintion then that is pretty darn extreme.


Well yes, _knowingly_, for sure. I just think she'd be likely to blindly follow a thrown ball without stopping and thinking that it might be dangerous. If she could SEE the edge of a cliff she wouldn't go over it just to get the ball, but if she was running hard I don't know that she'd stop and look either.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Because here you're getting into thresholds and an on/off switch. I don't think that Hunter is right in the sense that the low drive dog who seemingly can't "turn it off" is really just a low drive dog with energy who can't sit still.....not really anything to do with turning a drive off. More the inability to turn it's brain off.
> 
> Thresholds....think of the dog who loses their mind at training in the crate or goes insane at the mere glimpse of the helper on the field. Low threshold (other things going on here as well, low threshold being one) vs. the dog who doesn't react to the helper until the helper presents a threat would be a high threshold.
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying....but in the context of just training and drive NOT bite work. I would think a dog that you really have to work at to get him into drive (handler dancing around having to make a toy super exciting etc) to get a dog into drive is not what I would consider a high drive dog. Nor would I consider that to be in any way desireable


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

KristiM said:


> I get what you are saying....but in the context of just training and drive NOT bite work. *I would think a dog that you really have to work at to get him into drive (handler dancing around having to make a toy super exciting etc) to get a dog into drive is not what I would consider a high drive dog.* Nor would I consider that to be in any way desireable


That is NOT AT ALL what I am talking about. I'm talking about the level of stimulus it takes to get a dog into protection mode....one that can calmly walk out onto the field and sit there waiting his turn without having a mental breakdown while the helper takes a water break and chooses what sleeve to use....and will not react with agression until he has a reason to. I'm sorry, I don't want my dog acting like a moron and having my arm pulled off just trying to make it to the field and I want to be able to have a discussion with the helper about what the game plan is for the session without losing my ear drums from the screaming and whining. And I dont' want my dog acting aggressively (suspiciously--OK) towards the helper until the helper has his "game face" on. This has nothing to do with running around waving whips and bite rags around.

On the other end of extreme, I don't want it to take the helper physically having to beat my dog (or me) with a stick before my dog reacts aggressively.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I’d consider both my boys to have high drives but not extreme or crazy drives.

I know everyone defines these terms differently. To some extreme is good and others it is bad.

To me the term “extreme drive” is a negative and I don’t want to own a dog that I feel is extreme. To me it’s like Chris has said it’s when the one drive is all encompassing and overrides other things. Like the example Lisa gave, the dog goes after that ball but can’t think of anything else in the process and thus leads himself into his own demise.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> That is NOT AT ALL what I am talking about. I'm talking about the level of stimulus it takes to get a dog into protection mode....one that can calmly walk out onto the field and sit there waiting his turn without having a mental breakdown while the helper takes a water break and chooses what sleeve to use....and will not react with agression until he has a reason to. I'm sorry, I don't want my dog acting like a moron and having my arm pulled off just trying to make it to the field and I want to be able to have a discussion with the helper about what the game plan is for the session without losing my ear drums from the screaming and whining. And I dont' want my dog acting aggressively (suspiciously--OK) towards the helper until the helper has his "game face" on. This has nothing to do with running around waving whips and bite rags around.
> 
> On the other end of extreme, I don't want it to take the helper physically having to beat my dog (or me) with a stick before my dog reacts aggressively.


My bad, I thought we were talking more about DRIVE not so much thresholds in bite work. I was confused about the context of hunterisgreat's comment because to me a dog that has a *high threshold for drive means a dog that doesn't get excited or amped up unless something REALLY exciting is going on.* I know lots of dogs that don't get too excited unless there is a certain toy involved or their handler acts a certain way, once they are there (in drive) the dog can perform quite well but its a song and dance to get them there. That to me is not a high drive dog and I would seriously hate to work a dog like that. (I am not asking about this in the context of bite work, that is a little different.)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

KristiM said:


> My bad, I thought we were talking more about DRIVE not so much thresholds in bite work. I was confused about the context of hunterisgreat's comment because to me a dog that has a *high threshold for drive means a dog that doesn't get excited or amped up unless something REALLY exciting is going on.* I know lots of dogs that don't get too excited unless there is a certain toy involved or their handler acts a certain way, once they are there (in drive) the dog can perform quite well but its a song and dance to get them there. That to me is not a high drive dog and I would seriously hate to work a dog like that. (I am not asking about this in the context of bite work, that is a little different.)


Well I guess you bring in the subjectivity again in what everyone means. I will agree that a HIGH drive dog with MEDIUM thresholds is ideal. Extreme low and extreme high thresholds is bad....I don't think it should take a song and a dance to get a dog into drive..........and I do question the drive if it takes a certain action or a specific toy to get the dog going. To me there is a completley different set of issues happening than just threshold....drive also comes into play because the dog has to have a SPECIFIC stimulus to show interest. Again, a lack of balance. 

But i would rather have a high threshold extreme than a low threshold extreme..........there is nothing more annoying to me than dogs who lose their minds over someone coughing or the mere sight of someone that looks like a helper. But obviously that is personal preference.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Well I guess you bring in the subjectivity again in what everyone means. I will agree that a HIGH drive dog with MEDIUM thresholds is ideal. Extreme low and extreme high thresholds is bad....I don't think it should take a song and a dance to get a dog into drive..........and I do question the drive if it takes a certain action or a specific toy to get the dog going. To me there is a completley different set of issues happening than just threshold....drive also comes into play because the dog has to have a SPECIFIC stimulus to show interest. Again, a lack of balance.
> 
> But i would rather have a high threshold extreme than a low threshold extreme..........there is nothing more annoying to me than dogs who lose their minds over someone coughing or the mere sight of someone that looks like a helper. But obviously that is personal preference.


I agree with you:thumbup: What I am trying to get at, is that to me saying a dog has "extreme" drive and a high threshold for drive is kind of an oxymoron. It just doesn't fit. Wheras you COULD have a dog with "extreme" aggression and a high threshold. Sometimes the reality of dogs just doesn't fit into our defininitions


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Because here you're getting into thresholds and an on/off switch. I don't think that Hunter is right in the sense that the low drive dog who seemingly can't "turn it off" is really just a low drive dog with energy who can't sit still.....not really anything to do with turning a drive off. More the inability to turn it's brain off.
> 
> Thresholds....think of the dog who loses their mind at training in the crate or goes insane at the mere glimpse of the helper on the field. Low threshold (other things going on here as well, low threshold being one) vs. the dog who doesn't react to the helper until the helper presents a threat would be a high threshold.
> 
> ...


What I meant was more correctly stated low drive dogs with very low threshold. I worded that poorly


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KristiM said:


> I get what you are saying....but in the context of just training and drive NOT bite work. I would think a dog that you really have to work at to get him into drive (handler dancing around having to make a toy super exciting etc) to get a dog into drive is not what I would consider a high drive dog. Nor would I consider that to be in any way desireable


As an example of thresholds... if I have Jäger and katya outside and the wind blows a leaf across the front of them. Katya will snag it until she realizes its just a boring leaf. The amount of stimulus needed to trigger her prey response is low... just a little prey-like movement with any object will do it. Jäger would look at it like "what dude.. its a leaf". However, should a rabbit burst out of the garden and run by both of them, they will be in nearly equal levels of prey drive, and both will give chase with all their heart, catch and thrash it like mad if they can. Jäger has a much higher threshold... he has to have his prey drive stimulated more before it "activates" and he comes into drive. To elaborate further. I could get Jäger to chase a leaf, but its going to take more stimulus.. i.e. me making it look like prey infront of him for a few seconds before he is sufficiently stimulated to reach his threshold.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Well I guess you bring in the subjectivity again in what everyone means. I will agree that a HIGH drive dog with MEDIUM thresholds is ideal. Extreme low and extreme high thresholds is bad....I don't think it should take a song and a dance to get a dog into drive..........and I do question the drive if it takes a certain action or a specific toy to get the dog going. To me there is a completley different set of issues happening than just threshold....drive also comes into play because the dog has to have a SPECIFIC stimulus to show interest. Again, a lack of balance.
> 
> But i would rather have a high threshold extreme than a low threshold extreme..........there is nothing more annoying to me than dogs who lose their minds over someone coughing or the mere sight of someone that looks like a helper. But obviously that is personal preference.


"Rather"? I wouldn't want a low threshold extreme drive dog... period... lol. I don't need a dog biting me every time the wind shifts my pants legs or a butterfly comes fluttering by.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KristiM said:


> I agree with you:thumbup: What I am trying to get at, is that to me saying a dog has "extreme" drive and a high threshold for drive is kind of an oxymoron. It just doesn't fit. Wheras you COULD have a dog with "extreme" aggression and a high threshold. Sometimes the reality of dogs just doesn't fit into our defininitions


I don't see it as an oxymoron at all. I'll make a little graphic... brb


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> As an example of thresholds... if I have Jäger and katya outside and the wind blows a leaf across the front of them. Katya will snag it until she realizes its just a boring leaf. The amount of stimulus needed to trigger her prey response is low... just a little prey-like movement with any object will do it. Jäger would look at it like "what dude.. its a leaf". However, should a rabbit burst out of the garden and run by both of them, they will be in nearly equal levels of prey drive, and both will give chase with all their heart, catch and thrash it like mad if they can. Jäger has a much higher threshold... he has to have his prey drive stimulated more before it "activates" and he comes into drive. To elaborate further. I could get Jäger to chase a leaf, but its going to take more stimulus.. i.e. me making it look like prey infront of him for a few seconds before he is sufficiently stimulated to reach his threshold.


Yes I get that, but like I said saying a dog is high drive and has a high threshold to get into drive to me is an oxymoron. I'm not talking so much about chasing prey or bite work I'm talking more along the lines of getting nice, drivey obedience. A dog that is high threshold (for drive) will NOT show much drive because lets face it, obedience is boring. Now can that dog really be considred extremely high drive?


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Lol glad my dog isn't the only one who chases leaves past puppyhood


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> In theory, perhaps. But reality is that it just doesn't work that way.
> 
> Balance is very easily and quickly lost when trying to add more and more and more drive. Drive is easy to add to breedings. Finding the nerve to properly control and contain that drive is not. Things very easily and quickly get out of whack and the drive takes control, overriding the thinking part of the brain. Happens all the time, and is happening quite frequently with this breed unfortunately.
> 
> There is a maximum amount of "current" that a dog's brain can handle. Even a dog of the strongest nerves. Go over that amount, and things short circuit.


Yeah I know its an oversimplification of the whole thing, but in theory


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KristiM said:


> Yes I get that, but like I said saying a dog is high drive and has a high threshold to get into drive to me is an oxymoron. I'm not talking so much about chasing prey or bite work I'm talking more along the lines of getting nice, drivey obedience. A dog that is high threshold (for drive) will NOT show much drive because lets face it, obedience is boring. Now can that dog really be considred extremely high drive?


Review my **DRAFT** graphic on prey drive.. the part about moving thresholds needs to say capture that you can only slightly move thresholds... that you can't fundamentally and dramatically change any of the dogs genetically based behaviors

Also, not to scale. Don't beat me up about "a nice high drive dog won't activate for a ball thrown??? You sir, are stupid". I rushed


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Review my **DRAFT** graphic on prey drive.. the part about moving thresholds needs to say capture that you can only slightly move thresholds... that you can't fundamentally and dramatically change any of the dogs genetically based behaviors
> 
> Also, not to scale. Don't beat me up about "a nice high drive dog won't activate for a ball thrown??? You sir, are stupid". I rushed



While that chart is nice...and it really is. none of it fits any of my dogs because there are a lot of grey areas. Or maybe I'm not understanding it correctly?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> That is NOT AT ALL what I am talking about. I'm talking about the level of stimulus it takes to get a dog into protection mode....one that can calmly walk out onto the field and sit there waiting his turn without having a mental breakdown while the helper takes a water break and chooses what sleeve to use....and will not react with agression until he has a reason to. I'm sorry, I don't want my dog acting like a moron and having my arm pulled off just trying to make it to the field and I want to be able to have a discussion with the helper about what the game plan is for the session without losing my ear drums from the screaming and whining.


I quite agree with you here but I also think that like everything, it depends on the dog. Lately I have been getting Nikon out for protection before his turn and I have him sit/down right there where he can clearly see and hear what is going on. He watches the dog before him do protection like he would sit at my feet while I'm watching HGTV. When it's his turn I tell him to fuss and we heel onto the field (sometimes around a little bit) and he must feel and be quiet until I say "pass auf". For me though it's not a demonstration of drive or balance or on/off switch or trying to get compliance under high distraction, but I'm actually doing it to cap him so that his drive level is higher. I'm doing it to bring him up rather than bring him down and having him maintain the obedience and control has actually helped bring him into a higher state of drive (and stay more in drive throughout his sessions) rather than squash drive for the sake of obedience and control (he has very good obedience during protection naturally, probably why this works so well for me). For some dogs though, I've seen the obedience overdone by the handler and the dog needs a chance to loosen up and in some cases will intentionally be allowed to drag the handler on the field. The thing is, I'm pretty sure all the dogs know the helper is there and know it's time for protection. They are already waiting to react and unless the dog is a total dud in protection it takes very little if anything to get a reaction. In fact some of the more "meh" dogs I've seen often come out screaming and dragging the handler around but then fizzle once there's any real confrontation involved.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Wow hunter that is awesome! I'm just running out the door to work my dogs I will take a closer look when I get back.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> While that chart is nice...and it really is. none of it fits any of my dogs because there are a lot of grey areas. Or maybe I'm not understanding it correctly?


Explain the grey areas and I shall improve my chart


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I quite agree with you here but I also think that like everything, it depends on the dog. Lately I have been getting Nikon out for protection before his turn and I have him sit/down right there where he can clearly see and hear what is going on. He watches the dog before him do protection like he would sit at my feet while I'm watching HGTV. When it's his turn I tell him to fuss and we heel onto the field (sometimes around a little bit) and he must feel and be quiet until I say "pass auf". For me though it's not a demonstration of drive or balance or on/off switch or trying to get compliance under high distraction, but I'm actually doing it to cap him so that his drive level is higher. I'm doing it to bring him up rather than bring him down and having him maintain the obedience and control has actually helped bring him into a higher state of drive (and stay more in drive throughout his sessions) rather than squash drive for the sake of obedience and control (he has very good obedience during protection naturally, probably why this works so well for me). For some dogs though, I've seen the obedience overdone by the handler and the dog needs a chance to loosen up and in some cases will intentionally be allowed to drag the handler on the field. The thing is, I'm pretty sure all the dogs know the helper is there and know it's time for protection. They are already waiting to react and unless the dog is a total dud in protection it takes very little if anything to get a reaction. In fact some of the more "meh" dogs I've seen often come out screaming and dragging the handler around but then fizzle once there's any real confrontation involved.


Thats not uncommon. I'm the only one that has "figured out" one club dog... and with this dog I have the handler bring her out, not really under any control, but just as efficiently as possible. Then I have her down the dog, and the dog and I mildly posture... locked eyes and such, I methodically and slowly pace about a bit. She sits and loads for 30 seconds or so. Then, when the handler turns her on, I have a firecracker to work. Before the dog would sniff about and show some avoidance (the sniffing, eating grass), until finally she decided it was time to work and then she'd get going... weird dog. The odd thing is once shes going, she's good drive and takes frontal pressure, drives, stick hits, challenges, like a normal solid working dog would. No insecurity once she is working. Its like she's insecure or reluctant to work until the devil on her shoulder (I mean her drives) compels her to work lol


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I quite agree with you here but I also think that like everything, it depends on the dog. Lately I have been getting Nikon out for protection before his turn and I have him sit/down right there where he can clearly see and hear what is going on. He watches the dog before him do protection like he would sit at my feet while I'm watching HGTV. When it's his turn I tell him to fuss and we heel onto the field (sometimes around a little bit) and he must feel and be quiet until I say "pass auf". For me though it's not a demonstration of drive or balance or on/off switch or trying to get compliance under high distraction, but I'm actually doing it to cap him so that his drive level is higher. I'm doing it to bring him up rather than bring him down and having him maintain the obedience and control has actually helped bring him into a higher state of drive (and stay more in drive throughout his sessions) rather than squash drive for the sake of obedience and control (he has very good obedience during protection naturally, probably why this works so well for me). For some dogs though, I've seen the obedience overdone by the handler and the dog needs a chance to loosen up and in some cases will intentionally be allowed to drag the handler on the field. The thing is, I'm pretty sure all the dogs know the helper is there and know it's time for protection. They are already waiting to react and unless the dog is a total dud in protection it takes very little if anything to get a reaction. In fact some of the more "meh" dogs I've seen often come out screaming and dragging the handler around but then fizzle once there's any real confrontation involved.


Oh, I agree there...and the capping thing/being able to control drives/thresholds is a whole 'nother topic. I basically do the same thing with Medo. He clearly knows we are doing protection and isn't on the field snoozing, but I don't want that explosion until me or the helper turns him on.....the quietly sitting and controling ones self is certainly not because he doesn't know we aren't doing protection and isn't ramped up about it....

But the round and round conversation just goes to show..........it really is all tied into each other....drives...thresholds....capping.....build-up....there is absolutely no way you can bring an extreme of one thing into the mix without negatively effecting another thing........

And I totally agree about the screamers/whiners........I really don't think their brains can usually process everything and so there is no point to what they are doing....and then it causes that "meh".


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

KristiM said:


> Yes I get that, but like I said saying a dog is high drive and has a high threshold to get into drive to me is an oxymoron. I'm not talking so much about chasing prey or bite work I'm talking more along the lines of getting nice, drivey obedience. A dog that is high threshold (for drive) will NOT show much drive because lets face it, obedience is boring. Now can that dog really be considred extremely high drive?


If dogs think obedience isn't fun, then I'd say you need to work on your training 

I don't think thresholds that are within "normal" levels (ie "normal" low, medium, high) and not extreme would just take knowing your dog to know how to motivate them for obedience.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Review my **DRAFT** graphic on prey drive.. the part about moving thresholds needs to say capture that you can only slightly move thresholds... that you can't fundamentally and dramatically change any of the dogs genetically based behaviors
> 
> Also, not to scale. Don't beat me up about "a nice high drive dog won't activate for a ball thrown??? You sir, are stupid". I rushed


I like the graph! I really do understand the whole threshold thing I guess it goes back to what I consider "high threshold" may not be what others consider high threshold. The "training space" gets smaller the higher the threshold, and a really high threshold would render any drive the dog does have as useless because you would need to be able to create REALLY high stimulus to motivate a dog for behaiviors such as obdience. In prcatical terms this dog would be useless. I guess in theory you could have a high drive, high threshold dog but in practice the overly high threshold would somewhat cancel out the drive.

BTW, my dogs think obedience is super fun! But that is becasue they think playing with toys, wrestling with me etc is super fun and the value of those activities is transfered to the act of doing obedience I don't think you would ever find a dog that just thinks staring at his handler while maintaining a precise position is fun on its own, theres got to be some kind of reward even if its just praise for some dogs. Otherwise you would see them doing it naturally, gotta say I've never seen my dog do anything close to heeling while he's entertaining himself in the backyard lol.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

But you're implying that a higher threshold dog doesn't enjoy playing with a ball and getting rewards. If the dog is high drive, then it will want to work for the rewards. Maybe it takes some wild games with the handler to get in drive, but it doesn't mean the dog doesn't love getting rewards and prancing around.  

I just think if threwsholds are so high the handler can't get the dog to do anything that's extreme....but I tend to think that threshold doesn't so much have to do with a dog not having fun in obedience, but rather the dog lacks drive somewhere as well.

Take a "stereotypical" DDR dog.....people tend to say (I've never worked one so this is based on opinion of others) that they are NOT flashy OB dogs because they lack prey drive and are high threshold. The high threshold in itself isn't the only issue that blocks the flashy obedience, but also the fact the dog doesn't have any prey drive....


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> But you're implying that a higher threshold dog doesn't enjoy playing with a ball and getting rewards. If the dog is high drive, then it will want to work for the rewards. *Maybe it takes some wild games with the handler to get in drive*, but it doesn't mean the dog doesn't love getting rewards and prancing around.
> 
> I just think if threwsholds are so high the handler can't get the dog to do anything that's extreme....but I tend to think that threshold doesn't so much have to do with a dog not having fun in obedience, but rather the dog lacks drive somewhere as well.
> 
> Take a "stereotypical" DDR dog.....people tend to say (I've never worked one so this is based on opinion of others) that they are NOT flashy OB dogs because they lack prey drive and are high threshold. The high threshold in itself isn't the only issue that blocks the flashy obedience, but also the fact the dog doesn't have any prey drive....


Haha, the DDR type dogs are exactly what I am talking about lol. If I ever brought up the fact that it was super hard to get them doing half decent obedience I got "well they just have a higher threshold, they don't get all stupid over dumb toys like your spinny west German dogs!" Maybe it was too high of a threshold, maybe they just had no drive or maybe the two went hand in hand. (A guy at my old club bred "DDR" dogs and thought they were the be all end all. Insisted that these dogs were "extreme" drive, just really high thresholds for any kind of drive.)

I just can't call a dog that requires wild games with the handler to have somewhat flashy obedience high drive, I just get hung up on the terms I guess If a ball doesn't stimulate a dog (because his threshold is too high) than it's not going to be that rewarding and won't stimulate an appropriate level of drive.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Those people are forgetting the rest of the equation: high threshold PLUS low prey drive.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

KristiM said:


> I don't think you would ever find a dog that just thinks staring at his handler while maintaining a precise position is fun on its own, theres got to be some kind of reward even if its just praise for some dogs. Otherwise you would see them doing it naturally, gotta say I've never seen my dog do anything close to heeling while he's entertaining himself in the backyard lol.


I used to train with a guy that had a dog that stared at faces naturally. Actually that is how he got the dog. The behavior freaked out his previous owner.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I don't think it is a lack of prey or a high threshhold. IMO it is a lack of pack drive. They don't have the desire to work with their people. Obviously I am stereotyping. I am actually seeing this in more and more dogs except that the dogs have drive for toys. The dogs will work all day long for that ball or tug or bite, but lack the desire to actually work with their handler. Sort of reminds me of some of the Pointers that were trained near where we used to train. The dogs' only desire was to find birds and point and that meant getting as far away from their people as possible. Obviously these dogs are extremes. Bred for one purpose and lacking balance like we need in the GSD.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

My younger DDR female has "real" prey drive and high thresholds--that is to say, if it's real prey, she's deadly serious. Her drive for a toy/object is minimal, although I have created value in the chase/retrieve of a ball, and she will grab a ball and carry it around for fun--but I don't really think that's very tied to her prey drive.

For obedience, I can use food and ball as rewards, but she does *not* work for the rewards--that is, she likes the rewards, but it's not something she will spend a lot of time trying to get me to give her by "performing" for. She will, however, work just for me, because I asked it and for praise--happily and accurately with prancing and focus (at least in short bursts). 

Nevertheless, I think getting through an entire schutzhund obedience routine would be a very hard thing and I think she'd end up rather flat at the end. So, I'd far rather have a dog with a few more notches of toy/object focused prey.... and a few less notches of "let's kill your cats today!"

p.s.: she's learning to have fun in herding sheep and not just hunting, and I'm seeing the combination of pack drive and desire to please and her "real prey" drive coming together to work nicely in her herding work.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> My younger DDR female has "real" prey drive and high thresholds--that is to say, if it's real prey, she's deadly serious. Her drive for a toy/object is minimal, although I have created value in the chase/retrieve of a ball, and she will grab a ball and carry it around for fun--but I don't really think that's very tied to her prey drive.
> 
> For obedience, I can use food and ball as rewards, but she does *not* work for the rewards--that is, she likes the rewards, but it's not something she will spend a lot of time trying to get me to give her by "performing" for. She will, however, work just for me, because I asked it and for praise--happily and accurately with prancing and focus (at least in short bursts).
> 
> ...


You could just buy a few extra cats and use them for reward lol. I bet she would maintian a flashy routine for a super long time then! (Kidding! I do like cats)


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

KristiM said:


> You could just buy a few extra cats and use them for reward lol. I bet she would maintian a flashy routine for a super long time then! (Kidding! I do like cats)


Cats, chickens, sheep... Yeah, any of those would work. A guinea pig might actually fit in a jacket pocket!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We were teaching Karlo to get on a big blue inflated Eggball tonight...I wanted to put my cat up on the wall to get him to go higher! Canned cheese on the wall did the trick.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I think some people that a dog that will 'die for the ball' will somehow do better in competitions such as flyball. Not saying everyone feels this way,but at the trials I have observed, there have always been a few people who have dogs that lose their common sense when they see the ball.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Gharrissc said:


> I think some people that a dog that will 'die for the ball' will somehow do better in competitions such as flyball.


Oh, you're right, it can definitely be a problem if they're _too_ into balls - it's actually better if you've got a tugging machine than a ball obsessed dog. Experienced racers try for a balance between the two. 

The dog has to want the ball enough to go down the lane to get it and bring it back, but if they want it too much they may go for one of the many loose balls in the lane instead of getting it from the box. And if they're too into tugging and the ball has little value, it can be a challenge to get the dog to bring it all the way back and not spit it out before the start/finish line. My dog tends towards the former, but we have several dogs in the club who had to start with basic retrieving training because they're just not interested in balls at all.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

KristiM said:


> Haha, the DDR type dogs are exactly what I am talking about lol. If I ever brought up the fact that it was super hard to get them doing half decent obedience I got "well they just have a higher threshold, they don't get all stupid over dumb toys like your spinny west German dogs!" Maybe it was too high of a threshold, maybe they just had no drive or maybe the two went hand in hand. (A guy at my old club bred "DDR" dogs and thought they were the be all end all. Insisted that these dogs were "extreme" drive, just really high thresholds for any kind of drive.)
> 
> I just can't call a dog that requires wild games with the handler to have somewhat flashy obedience high drive, I just get hung up on the terms I guess If a ball doesn't stimulate a dog (because his threshold is too high) than it's not going to be that rewarding and won't stimulate an appropriate level of drive.


My male is DDR/Slovak. He has more prey that most dogs I see, but it's not extreme or even "very high". I'm not talking about *that* high of threshold... Just not going to attack the leaves if I kick them into the air... And in my experience you don't have to work hard to keep them in drive, just to turn it on... Like pushing a car in neutral, once it's rolling its easy to keep it rolling, not like pushing a car in neutral with the e brake on, that stops the second you stop pushing with all your might. This is still a dog that I show him (or say) ball, and that's sufficient. Also, this is just prey. His aggression has low threshold with very high drive level


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