# Addressing the Sluggish Down?



## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

How should I fix a sluggish down?
He's needed a lure this whole time and it takes five-ten seconds to get him down without it. I don't use any punishment. (I personally don't know how to punish a sluggish dog.) I just wait till he slowly slides down and praise when he does. It doesn't matter how much I praise, he just won't stop taking his time. I think he just plain dislikes down. 
How should I address this?
Any comments or help will be appreciated!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If you're been luring him for a long time, he's relying on the food lure as a cue. How old is he, and how long have you been luring? When I lure sit or down I get the food out of my hand very quickly, usually in the first couple of brief training sessions. I use the same lure motion but with an empty hand, rewarding from the other hand. 

How many times a day does he lay down on his own? You can capture and reward that. I wouldn't use a verbal cue yet, yes a happy "yes!" and toss a treat so he has to get up to get it. Wait. When he lays down again, mark and reward. The more you do this, the more he should start offering the behavior. Make it a game, fast and fun. At that point I'd use the verbal cue right before you think he's going to lay down.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First you needed to teach him to down from a stand. Was that done?

Then when you lure, it needs to be fast so he's following your hand. Once he is doing that, you then fade out your hand. I can't show you videos because you don't have facebook and I think they are on her personal page.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

You have likely taught him a slow down. You said you offer praise after he slowly downs, so he has learned that slow downs earn him praise. I would use food. I think you mentioned his food drive was low, but that can easily me manipulated. I agree with Jax about starting with a stand and the lure needs to be fast with your hand quickly going between his feet so he will kick his legs back. Something is only a reinforcer if it has value. A dog can go a long time without food with no ill effects. If he doesn't seem to be focused on the exercise, don't keep begging him, put him up and he'll have to wait until next time to earn some food. A toy can also be a lure if the dog has good prey drive. That is why, IMO, DDR dogs are often no fun to train.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you're been luring him for a long time, he's relying on the food lure as a cue. How old is he, and how long have you been luring? When I lure sit or down I get the food out of my hand very quickly, usually in the first couple of brief training sessions. I use the same lure motion but with an empty hand, rewarding from the other hand.
> 
> How many times a day does he lay down on his own? You can capture and reward that. I wouldn't use a verbal cue yet, yes a happy "yes!" and toss a treat so he has to get up to get it. Wait. When he lays down again, mark and reward. The more you do this, the more he should start offering the behavior. Make it a game, fast and fun. At that point I'd use the verbal cue right before you think he's going to lay down.


I've been luring him partly, but mostly not. I just wait, and if he doesn't do it soon I use a lure. He's in his crate half of the day, so he lays down a ton. Not ever when he's playing or training with me, though he'll sit down and chew something for a few minutes if I've just finished a long tug of war game.
he's seven months.



Jax08 said:


> First you needed to teach him to down from a stand. Was that done?
> 
> Then when you lure, it needs to be fast so he's following your hand. Once he is doing that, you then fade out your hand. I can't show you videos because you don't have facebook and I think they are on her personal page.


He knows down from every position. Stand, sit, walking, not running yet. But I have to be beside him actively watching and luring if he takes too long to go down. If he really wants something he'll do it faster.
The thing is, if I do the lure fast he just sits there. I have slowly lead him down. 



Chip Blasiole said:


> You have likely taught him a slow down. You said you offer praise after he slowly downs, so he has learned that slow downs earn him praise. I would use food. I think you mentioned his food drive was low, but that can easily me manipulated. I agree with Jax about starting with a stand and the lure needs to be fast with your hand quickly going between his feet so he will kick his legs back. Something is only a reinforcer if it has value. A dog can go a long time without food with no ill effects. If he doesn't seem to be focused on the exercise, don't keep begging him, put him up and he'll have to wait until next time to earn some food. A toy can also be a lure if the dog has good prey drive. That is why, IMO, DDR dogs are often no fun to train.


I do use food. Right now I really can't down him without food.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm going to training tomorrow. I'll see if I can get a video of how to do it for you.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If you slowly lead/lure him down and then reinforce the behavior with food, you have taught him a slow down. Genetics play a role regarding drive for food or a toy, but as I said, when he gets really hungry and you are using high value food, his downs will get faster. Don't reward slow downs. You have to quickly drop your hand under his chest and back a little so he has to down to be able to bite the food. You can also pair compulsion with food if eventually after using the food correctly and increasing his food drive, you are not seeing progress. You would use a slip collar and pull slightly up and back while luring with your hand. The up and back movement creates opposition reflex which will cause him to move down, the opposite direction of the correction. The correction doesn't have to be strong, just enough to trigger opposition reflex. The problem is that reading this without seeing it done correctly is very limiting. here is a link to the slip collar I am referring to.
https://legacyk9gear.com/shop?olsPage=products/klin-slip-collar-tab-combo


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Does he move faster when he is engaged? 

For example, when my dog is retrieving his drive level is very high. If I give him commands when the switch is on, he is very very fast. 

If we are training, I have food, and he is locked in, same story.
If he is wandering around the family room in the evening and out of the blue I ask for a down, it is markedly slower.

Michael Ellis - Increasing Your Dog's Speed in Performing Exercises


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kathrynil said:


> He's in his crate half of the day, so he lays down a ton. Not ever when he's playing or training with me, though he'll sit down and chew something for a few minutes if I've just finished a long tug of war game.


He literally _never_ lays down when he's not in his crate? He doesn't get tired if you play ball or tug with him? What if you tired him out and then just sat down on the floor near him, would he lay down then?

That seems weird. If I sit on the floor, Cava flings herself into a down near me because she knows (or thinks!) that we're going to do something fun that will probably involve treats.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I think Ellis'es comments area little contradictory regarding a dog not knowing the difference of being rewarded for a medium fast sit and a very fast sit. He says the reason has more to do with the dog's drive state and that is influenced by the handler. So learning is a factor.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

I have also found that when running the dog through positions, the handler can speed up rate of request, and often the dog will go along with you.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kathrynil said:


> I do use food. Right now I really can't down him without food.


From my perspective, this is the problem. Training is about communication, not bribery. Treats help with motivation for sure. 

But so can making a fun game out of training. I think often people just get too serious about training, and it takes the fun out of it for the dog. 

More animation, more variation, more laughter and praise will help, as will chaining behaviors to make things more fun and challenging. Simply laying down over and over and over is boring.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Jorski said:


> Does he move faster when he is engaged?
> 
> For example, when my dog is retrieving his drive level is very high. If I give him commands when the switch is on, he is very very fast.
> 
> ...


He does. I got a nice jerky treat at the store and he moves pretty fast for that, but on a normal training session, it's not fast. I have never done any downs out of the blue. I haven't even got a fast one _in_ the blue, never mind out. 

I have about a minute or so of perfect engagement when I'm training. That's when he's fast. 

Thanks for the video! I'll watch it. 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> He literally _never_ lays down when he's not in his crate? He doesn't get tired if you play ball or tug with him? What if you tired him out and then just sat down on the floor near him, would he lay down then?
> 
> That seems weird. If I sit on the floor, Cava flings herself into a down near me because she knows (or thinks!) that we're going to do something fun that will probably involve treats.


Kias is not out around the house a lot. Usually he's out for twenty minute stretches 2 times a week. This is when my little brother is not around. So when he's not in his crate he is walking around the house and following me or playing games, training, etc. When I'm done training in the mornings I have to start school immediately and he is put away. That's when he lies down for a rest. (or lays. Improper grammar)




tim_s_adams said:


> From my perspective, this is the problem. Training is about communication, not bribery. Treats help with motivation for sure.
> 
> But so can making a fun game out of training. I think often people just get too serious about training, and it takes the fun out of it for the dog.
> 
> More animation, more variation, more laughter and praise will help, as will chaining behaviors to make things more fun and challenging. Simply laying down over and over and over is boring.


I totally agree. I make my training with him " do a trick" then "play for a minute"; repeat. It's always as exciting and fun as I can make it. I don't bribe for anything at all unless he's just learning it or...well... sluggish lying down. 
Thanks for the suggestion though. I bet if I try, I can make it even more exciting.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I'm going to training tomorrow. I'll see if I can get a video of how to do it for you.


That will be great! Thanks.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

tim_s_adams,
The use of food has nothing to do with bribery or operant learning. A bribe occurs before a behavior is displayed. A reinforcer is presented after a behavior occurs and is only a reinforcer if it increases the frequency of the behavior. Correct timing of delivery of a reinforcer is all about communication and through operant learning, indirect learning and self discovery, a pup learns how to learn which is also very much about communication. I assume you have a job. Would you go to your job just for the fun of it or would you expect to get paid? Whenever an example uses anthropomorphism, something is lost in translation, but you should get my point. The animation, praise, etc. you mentioned is all part of good training. Being serious about training in terms of having high expectations for your dog is not inconsistent with your dog having fun. That is why it is so much more enjoyable to train a dog with good prey and food drive.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> A bribe occurs before a behavior is displayed.


Chip, this is a 7 month old dog! You did see the statement I quoted? 



Kathrynil said:


> Right now I really can't down him without food.


How is Katheryn's statement about her dog not bribery?



Chip Blasiole said:


> Being serious about training in terms of having high expectations for your dog is not inconsistent with your dog having fun.


Obviously! I never said it does! But I have yet to meet a dog that can't learn to down pretty reliably in a single afternoon, so I guess I don't see where "high expectations" comes into play here?!

I do see many people who think training is a "session" however. When in reality it's virtually everything you do with your dog. 

And not to be critical of anyone or their training efforts, but whenever I hear someone say X is a work in progress with a pup that is several months or more in age, X being a command like down or recall or whatever, I can't help but think it's past time to look closely at the "training" methodology. And IME, as I said, many people forget to have fun with their training - hence the reminder.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> And IME, as I said, many people forget to have fun with their training - hence the reminder.


Ive been here. Much better when it’s fun. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> Ive been here. Much better when it’s fun.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, I've always tried to make it as fun as I could.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Bribery would be if she gave her dog some food and then told him to down, which makes no sense and teaches the dog nothing. Luring is not bribery. I agree that everything you do with your dogs is training, but a "session" is more focused and usually involves training a specific exercise or the foundation for exercises in preparing for competition. I don't think a dog learns a reliable down after one "session." What you will see is a dog throwing different behaviors at you the next session and getting the down correct at times. A reliable down is a fast, precise down that is correct 100% of the time. Training is not much fun when a dog doesn't have the drive to engage in training.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

In my opinion having a 7 m.o pup as well it’s really not a big deal.. Lex is a very smart dog, she’ll do a bunch of commands...but our family’s life is not concentrated on how many seconds it will take her to sit or lay down she is a family member just like the rest of our pets. Thank goodness that I work from home and we have a fenced yard and 15 acres next to a game refuge so you can walk for hours without driving anywhere and she would walk on bridges, step into brooks, get all muddy at least when my 12 y.o walks her. Our Border Collie gets tired easily so we have to bring her back. But Lex can sleep for hours after half an hour hike in the woods. I am more concerned about bears now that it’s close to 70oF here in CT.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Bribery would be if she gave her dog some food and then told him to down, which makes no sense and teaches the dog nothing. Luring is not bribery. I agree that everything you do with your dogs is training, but a "session" is more focused and usually involves training a specific exercise or the foundation for exercises in preparing for competition. I don't think a dog learns a reliable down after one "session." What you will see is a dog throwing different behaviors at you the next session and getting the down correct at times. A reliable down is a fast, precise down that is correct 100% of the time. Training is not much fun when a dog doesn't have the drive to engage in training.





tim_s_adams said:


> Chip, this is a 7 month old dog! You did see the statement I quoted?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use the food to direct Kias to the position he should be in then give it to him when he accomplishes what I want. I agree that it doesn't happen in one session. It takes time.

This is just a bit misunderstood I think.

I show him the food, lure him down, and give him the food once he's down. I do this slowly because he ignores fast luring. Right now it's really slow, but I'm getting some help soon to address the problem.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

One reason he ignores fast luring is because he is not hungry enough. One approach is to only feed your dog when training with food. Most dogs, like people are overweight. He will not starve. Use good food like cooked boneless chicken thighs cut into very small pieces. Don't overcook the meat.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Since it seems that you need to change your training method for this a bit or drastically, I would rename the command and treat it as a new command that you are teaching. I wouldn’t do this until you have formed a plan on how you want to teach it. Maybe wait for the trainer that you mentioned.

Chances are that with all the training you have done, the meaning of the word “down” and how he executes it is set and probably will be harder to change especially if you are uncomfortable with using a correction. So choose another command word that means hit the deck right now lickity split and teach that. And like Tim said, Make it fun and don’t train it play with it.

My guy is slow to down but if I’m walking him and then start walking backwards whil moving forward, stop abruptly in a happy way and say “down”, boom, he does it. Something unexpected and I’m smiling when I do this.

Just a suggestion that I have had success with. Maybe it will help.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Both good ideas. He has very low food drive, so maybe I can try with a favorite toy or something? We're getting an evaluation with a trainer soon.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

A toy is a great tool to use and reward with. That jerky you mentioned might do the trick also. 

Good luck with the trainer.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What have you done to build your dog's food drive?


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What have you done to build your dog's food drive?


nilf. He works for his dinner and only gets it if he does something. It hasn't changed things much. I may resort to toys.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Food is much better to teach new behaviors because you can use continuous reinforcement with marker training. For example, if you lure your dog to down with food, you can keep reinforcing him with food and mark the staying down with "good" and deliver the food, or you can learn how to clicker train, which is more complicated than some realize. With a toy, you can't use continuous reinforcement because as soon as the dog is paid with the toy, the behavior is over. I would only feed him when you train him and use good food like cooked chicken cut in small pieces. Don't use hot dogs or other non-real food items like treats, etc. He will get adequate nutrition with chicken if you feed him three times a day for about ten minutes. If his food drive picks up, you can adjust and restart some kibble. The reinforcement should be given very quickly after the behavior is performed and only if the behavior is accurate. How accurate depends on your standards. If you reward crooked or slow sits and downs, that is what you will get. You want to keep a good pace when using food and kind of be upbeat and in drive yourself. After several repetitions of a behavior, give a release command and pay him with a bite of food and then go to another behavior. Later you will start to mix up the behaviors but not in a set pattern. Some people think withholding food for training only will cause a dog not to reach his genetically determined size and that is not true at all. There are corrects ways to lure as well and then yopu have to fade the luring with food or a toy. It is not rocket science but can be a little complicated.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

All dogs are different, so you have to find a technique that works for your dog. But even beyond technique, the focus and engagement you get from your dog is important. 

My dog has amazing food drive. She can eat a full meal and right after will give me 100% for a bite of chicken! So in that regard she's easy to work with. 

That being said, it took excitement and animation on my part to elicit that first snappy down. Food just didn't do it! And that's what I meant by communication, you have to be willing and open and watch and learn your dog to learn what they like or react to. For me and my dog, because she is so playful and focused, I had to make a game of it!

It was one of those beautiful breakthrough moments when she finally got what I was after though, she literally threw her feet out and slammed down to the floor, wagging her tail because it was so fun!

I went crazy, showing her clearly that THAT was what I wanted! Had her do it a few more times, then she got a ton of praise and treats! Then some playtime!

I posted a short video here:









Snappy down


Took a short video today of Nyx practicing the snappy down.




www.germanshepherds.com





Stick with it! You'll get there...


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