# Which Drago breeding to pick?



## Blitzkrieg1

Im thinking its time to find out what all the hype is about when it comes to Drago vom Patriot. Trouble is he is being bred to a lot of females with a lot of stellar looking peds..


Here are some breedings that Im looking at 
Drago x Lumpi
Line-breeding for the progency of V Drago vom Patriot and Lumpi vom Hünxer Wald

Drago x Connie
Line-breeding for the progency of V Drago vom Patriot and Connie V.H. Polbeekkwartier

Drago x Gundel
Line-breeding for the progency of V Drago vom Patriot and Gundel vom Dorneburger Bach


I really like the look, pedigree (Javir daughter) and background of Connie but there is a Drago x Lumpi pup that looks pretty good thats ready to go now. 

Also, Lumpi is a Bomber daughter and I have always been partial to Vito.

Thoughts? Opinions? EXPERIENCE?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

funny I was just looking at a bi color fb page and Drago's son was right there. He looked outstanding and from what his owners said was outstanding. The name Gundel sounds familiar. 


"Upon meeting drago I felt so lucky to have his son, Drago exudes confidence and is such a powerful dog, he will start schutzhund once hus teething ends" 
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhczth

Friend of mine has a Drago/Lumpi son that she really likes so far. He is confident, very good drives. She is pretty picky about nerves and has had some bad luck in the past. Only thing I might worry about from this cross is elbows looking at the SV results from the lines (yes, I am avoiding naming names). 

I would have to know the Javir daughter to decide on that breeding. What you got from Javir depended a lot on the type of female he was bred to. Some are very serious dogs and some a bit more sporty. I do like the linebreeding on Marc Herkulesblick who can bring good nerve. The linebreeding on Aly can bring some handler sensitivity, but it is pretty far back. 

I don't care for the third breeding at all, but that is just personal preference.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Thanks for the input. The Javir daughter passed Mike Suttle's SF tests according to the website which if true would be very impressive. What worries you about that one? 
What dont you like about the Gundel breeding, I like that she brought in Uno vom Statdfeld.


----------



## simba405

What happened to your sportwaffen pup? Not good enough? I'm honestly just curious.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I still have her, 1 just isnt enough.


----------



## lhczth

The fact that Gundel goes back on Uno is enough for me to avoid that breeding. I have never liked that line going back on Major Phönix nor Boomer Emsbogen. Also again I would worry about elbows. 

I like Javir. I bred to him in 2011, got to see a number of his kids while in Germany and have a daughter. I also bred to a grandson in 2013. I like that line, but you still have to be careful how he is used. When I did the breeding I was after his mother line through Ira Körbelbach and the Matsch Bungalow and got dogs with phenomenal nerve, but maybe more aggression than what most people know how to deal with in training in this day and age. The linebreeding on Yoschy could bring sharpness to a pedigree that doesn't need more. The female is linebred on Troll bN and Arthus Lünsholz both who can bring a lot of aggression. I would want to know the female to know that she will bring balance to Drago to satisfy me. The first female I titled in SchH was linebred on Arthus 4-4,4, but her pedigree was very balanced with none of the modern thinner nerved dogs. 

I have heard Mike's test is pretty tough so the female probably has excellent nerves, fight and aggression. Just have to make sure she is right for Drago.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lhczth said:


> The fact that Gundel goes back on Uno is enough for me to avoid that breeding. I have never liked that line going back on Major Phönix nor Boomer Emsbogen. Also again I would worry about elbows.
> 
> I like Javir. I bred to him in 2011, got to see a number of his kids while in Germany and have a daughter. I also bred to a grandson in 2013. I like that line, but you still have to be careful how he is used. When I did the breeding I was after his mother line through Ira Körbelbach and the Matsch Bungalow and got dogs with phenomenal nerve, but maybe more aggression than what most people know how to deal with in training in this day and age. The linebreeding on Yoschy could bring sharpness to a pedigree that doesn't need more. The female is linebred on Troll bN and Arthus Lünsholz both who can bring a lot of aggression. I would want to know the female to know that she will bring balance to Drago to satisfy me. The first female I titled in SchH was linebred on Arthus 4-4,4, but her pedigree was very balanced with none of the modern thinner nerved dogs.
> 
> I have heard Mike's test is pretty tough so the female probably has excellent nerves, fight and aggression. Just have to make sure she is right for Drago.


 
Thanks for the details it puts things into perspective and is slowing my roll..LOL. 
I like aggression as long is there is a stable nerve base same as sharpness. 
When you say bring ballance to Drago what do you feel he brings to much of?


----------



## KZoppa

following - intrigued and learning!


----------



## lhczth

It wouldn't be that Drago brings too much of something. Just don't want to swing the genetics he brings to the table too far one way or another. Always maintaining balance. The breed is becoming too thin nerved, too reactive. You don't want it to swing even farther that way. Hope that makes sense. I am not the best at putting into words what I am trying to get across.


----------



## gsdsar

So learning a lot. Question, whenever we have a popular dog, that produces well, he gets lots of breeding. How do people see Drago effecting the breed in the future? Is he popular enough to create a bottleneck? And if so, what traits dies he impart that could be an issue if he is found in many bloodlines? 

Lisa, love that you are talking about the over reactivity of the breed we see. Do you think this is a byproduct of the intense prey drive that does well in sport? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## misslesleedavis1

lhczth said:


> It wouldn't be that Drago brings too much of something. Just don't want to swing the genetics he brings to the table too far one way or another. Always maintaining balance. The breed is becoming too thin nerved, too reactive. You don't want it to swing even farther that way. Hope that makes sense. I am not the best at putting into words what I am trying to get across.


Have you seen him work? I have seen a few youtube vids he looks pretty happy.
Is he the "in" dog right now for breeding? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Im following this too. I have heard great things about him, and he certainly is handsome. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> It wouldn't be that Drago brings too much of something. Just don't want to swing the genetics he brings to the table too far one way or another. Always maintaining balance. The breed is becoming too thin nerved, too reactive. You don't want it to swing even farther that way. Hope that makes sense. I am not the best at putting into words what I am trying to get across.


Makes perfect sense and reflects what I see everyday lol


----------



## carmspack

yes to Matsch Bungalow which gave good social or active aggression , yet kept the trainability. In my pedigrees sourced through Ira and Ina haus Gard progeny Arek Stoffelblick and Nick Heiligenbosch , and Grando haus Sevens (Dreschler X Matsch daughter Illa Korbelbach) (which also brings in click to Mike Bungalow ).

speed , tracking , bidability -- just scribbling this down for own future reference -- 
next litter planned brings this to Mink Wittfeld ,


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Carmen have you seen the youtube vids on him? What do you think of him in general? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

I'm never in general. lol


----------



## wolfstraum

Carmen??? Nick???? why??? I avoid him and Timmy ....nerve and back issues.....

Mink - on the fence, but except for Crok!!!! - and I prefer him via Jago Lindenhalle.....but am floored you like Nick/Timmy.....

Lee


----------



## lhczth

Drago is in the states. He is the "IN" dog here, but he will not cause a bottleneck because overall he will not really have much influence except in the states (and, because of how most breed here, the influence here will also be minimal). 

It doesn't have to do with prey drive. It has to do with dogs that have a low threshold to stimuli. Go watch a video of Blacky neuen Lande doing obedience. Quick, flashy, but ever moving, fidgeting, too much like the Malinois. He was supposedly also not very environmentally sound and could be skittish in crowds. I use him as an example because it is easy to see in the video. Anne (Vandal) talks about it in that other thread. Many lack clarity in protection, hard to keep clean, don't like to out or out poorly, can't contain themselves easily in any work. Yes, I think many cover up the nerve by breeding for crazy prey, but, IMO, the crazy prey is secondary and not the main problem. 

Someone asked if I have seen Drago. Not in person, just in video. I have heard good things about him, but I look at his pedigree and know he is not the dog for me to use for breeding. He won't bring balance (and finding these dogs is getting wickedly difficult). 



gsdsar said:


> So learning a lot. Question, whenever we have a popular dog, that produces well, he gets lots of breeding. How do people see Drago effecting the breed in the future? Is he popular enough to create a bottleneck? And if so, what traits dies he impart that could be an issue if he is found in many bloodlines?
> 
> Lisa, love that you are talking about the over reactivity of the breed we see. Do you think this is a byproduct of the intense prey drive that does well in sport?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack

wolfstraum I'll be happy to do an indepth on your questions. Open another thread . I would be interested in the collective knowledge of forum members.
As it stands I do not have Nick Heiligenbosch on my pedigrees . He will be introduced through a stud that I have selected .

I mentioned Nick as a source of Matsch Bungalow.

As far as Timmy bosen nachbarschaft -- , not him, but the pedigree I have does have his brother Troll , through his daughter Anka Santa Maria. I met the German police k9 handler of Anka's police service dog Ando Santa Maria , who did very well at the police trials which used to be joined to the BSP, back in the day.

When I went to this , which Drago breeding, I thought it would be the other Drago, the one I would be interested in and that is Drago Eqidius V Drago Eqidius

not Drago Patriot V Drago vom Patriot


----------



## carmspack

quick short answer to wolfstraum , would be inheriting Nick H through Inox haus Ming PH 2 son who is KNPV metlof . 
In this Inox pedigree Nick was bred to Eika Ming G Eika vom Haus Ming

which brings in Bernd and Mike Bungalow -- so a good balance . 

Inox Ming was bred to a Sirk Sevens daughter bringing in herding genetics, Lierberg , and Gildo and Matsch. (Mara Busecker Schloss)

Pedigree solid . Did a very thorough check . Male is hard , self assured , and brings bidability to the next generation.

Lots of Nick progeny first and second generation appearing in KNPV campaigns and another Nick son Olex de Valsory is producing some interesting dogs .

Seems the Dutch and Belgian breeders use good placement of Nick H.


----------



## gsdlover91

Following this. There is potential that I may get a Drago puppy later this summer. Qbchottu on the board has 2 Drago daughters. She might be of some help.


----------



## robk

carmspack said:


> quick short answer to wolfstraum , would be inheriting Nick H through Inox haus Ming PH 2 son who is KNPV metlof .
> In this Inox pedigree Nick was bred to Eika Ming G Eika vom Haus Ming
> 
> which brings in Bernd and Mike Bungalow -- so a good balance .
> 
> Inox Ming was bred to a Sirk Sevens daughter bringing in herding genetics, Lierberg , and Gildo and Matsch. (Mara Busecker Schloss)
> 
> Pedigree solid . Did a very thorough check . Male is hard , self assured , and brings bidability to the next generation.
> 
> Lots of Nick progeny first and second generation appearing in KNPV campaigns and another Nick son Olex de Valsory is producing some interesting dogs .
> 
> Seems the Dutch and Belgian breeders use good placement of Nick H.


Both Inox and his son Dodge passed away last year. Inox was aged. Dodge was bit by a cat and died. What a shame.


----------



## Neko

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I still have her, 1 just isnt enough.


Love this answer. They are like potato chips.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

robk said:


> Both Inox and his son Dodge passed away last year. Inox was aged. Dodge was bit by a cat and died. What a shame.


A regular house cat?..

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lhczth said:


> Drago is in the states. He is the "IN" dog here, but he will not cause a bottleneck because overall he will not really have much influence except in the states (and, because of how most breed here, the influence here will also be minimal).
> 
> It doesn't have to do with prey drive. It has to do with dogs that have a low threshold to stimuli. Go watch a video of Blacky neuen Lande doing obedience. Quick, flashy, but ever moving, fidgeting, too much like the Malinois. He was supposedly also not very environmentally sound and could be skittish in crowds. I use him as an example because it is easy to see in the video. Anne (Vandal) talks about it in that other thread. Many lack clarity in protection, hard to keep clean, don't like to out or out poorly, can't contain themselves easily in any work. Yes, I think many cover up the nerve by breeding for crazy prey, but, IMO, the crazy prey is secondary and not the main problem.
> 
> Someone asked if I have seen Drago. Not in person, just in video. I have heard good things about him, but I look at his pedigree and know he is not the dog for me to use for breeding. He won't bring balance (and finding these dogs is getting wickedly difficult).


 
You mentioned certain thinner nerved dogs. WHich ones concern you?

Is it not possible to have lower thresholds (sharpness) without nerve issues. Have the Mal/Dutchie breeders not achieved this? 

What studs do you like for higher octane dogs with good nerve?


----------



## carmspack

wolfstraum in the pedigree I am looking at Mink would come through from Jago Lindenhalle's sister Jenni. I had great success with Jago in a previous litter - all went to work so in this case no next generation, Customs , SAR and water recovery , police , etc. AND Iko Lindenhalle who brings in Ignaz (Bernd) .

This and a dose of Korbelbach's coming from the female lines found on the potential sire , chosen dam , found through her maternal lines, and chosen dam also through her sire's maternal lines .

xxxxxxxxx

to Drago 

quote - 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *lhczth*  
_It wouldn't be that Drago brings too much of something. Just don't want to swing the genetics he brings to the table too far one way or another. Always maintaining balance. The breed is becoming too thin nerved, too reactive. You don't want it to swing even farther that way. Hope that makes sense. I am not the best at putting into words what I am trying to get across._

Makes perfect sense and reflects what I see everyday lol 
__________________


you have to make sure that you don't mistake an increase in sharpness or reactive aggression as drive . This is what is worrisome in the breed . Dogs easily aroused by stimulus in the environment . Then because thresholds are lower , the dog is more prepared to react in defense , even when no real threat is present.

missleeslee is this the video you are asking about ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXAdo3qyWU then what I see is a dog who enters the bark and hold with a lot of lip flicking . He keeps sliding back away from the decoy to take a look at the handler hiding just the other side of the wooden frame .
Actually in the opening sequence the handler makes a point of shielding the dog's eye with his hand , like a horse's blinker , maybe because the dog is in a very excited state , to help control him a bit?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

tune yourself out to the weird techno.


----------



## carmspack

not of interest for me . 46 in tracking -- that would rule him out .

To my eye he seems to be doing the whole thing as a good obedience exercise . Wonder if he knows why he is there , or why he is doing what he is doing. Don't get a sense of power .


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Actually in the opening sequence the handler makes a point of shielding the dog's eye with his hand , like a horse's blinker , maybe because the dog is in a very excited state , to help control him a bit?

I saw that too my first thought was "wow he must get really really excited "


----------



## misslesleedavis1

carmspack said:


> not of interest for me . 46 in tracking -- that would rule him out .
> 
> To my eye he seems to be doing the whole thing as a good obedience exercise . Wonder if he knows why he is there , or why he is doing what he is doing. Don't get a sense of power .


Have you ever heard of Manus Van Teikerhook?

I dont know, i thought he looked pretty happy to work, but your the expert


----------



## lhczth

I have heard from people that have seen him work in the states that he is a very nice dog. Strong, very athletic. If I was going by that video I would have turned it off and moved on the second he rounded the blind. The judge was kind that day, IMO. 

Blitz, my personal opinion about Mals. They have managed to create a very low threshold, reactive dog that is so crazy to work that it will work through just about anything despite the nerve. I do not own nor want a Mal, though. I want a dog that can think and discern and doesn't just run off a cliff after a ball or a helper because their drive overrides their brain.  I enjoy watching all breeds work and can appreciate them for each of their differences. Doesn't mean I want my GSD to act like them.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup and Smithie86 (Sue) and her husband have seen Drago work and used him for stud. She's made some comments in the past about her impressions of Drago here on the board.




gsdlover91 said:


> Following this. There is potential that I may get a Drago puppy later this summer. Qbchottu on the board has 2 Drago daughters. She might be of some help.


----------



## HuskyMal89

What do you all think of Brisco vom Patriot compared to Drago? He gets a decent amount of "love" in Germany and in Europe in general..


----------



## Smithie86

Talk to people that are actually training and working their Drago progeny and see what they are bred to. That will give you a good idea; from people that know and understanding training.

Drago reminds us (and a lot of people) of the non-sport dogs from about 10 years ago. Stable, intense, pushy. We had him on the short list for our Vito daughter in Europe, but then Gary bought him and he was in the US.

But, depends on what you are looking for and why.


----------



## cliffson1

One of the biggest miscarriages to this breed is " breeders" trying to breed GS to have traits like Mals/Dutchies.....arg!!!
I am sure Drago is a good match for the right female.....but whenever I hear of a stud being endorsed for a breeding without the specific female mentioned...I lose respect for the opinion. That's just me.....the value of a sire or dam is in the appropriateness of the mate. I have imported/bred dogs that I would take to Drago from a genetic point of view, I also have imported/bred some that I would never go to Drago with.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Smithie86 said:


> Talk to people that are actually training and working their Drago progeny and see what they are bred to. That will give you a good idea; from people that know and understanding training.
> 
> Drago reminds us (and a lot of people) of the non-sport dogs from about 10 years ago. Stable, intense, pushy. We had him on the short list for our Vito daughter in Europe, but then Gary bought him and he was in the US.
> 
> But, depends on what you are looking for and why.


The impression I was getting is that he brings alot of sportiness. However now Im hearing that he is not sporty. Is it that the dog himself is not sporty but brings genetics to the table that are more sporty? eg lower thresholds, higher prey etc?


----------



## Smithie86

Drago is not sporty at all.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

If you dont mind my asking why would you breed to him? What does he bring to the table? How would he compliment your females? What type of female would you NOT breed to him?

This question is open to all breeder btw.

I suppose his name on the ped would get the pups sold quick..but aside from that..lol.


----------



## daisyrunner

carmspack said:


> not of interest for me . 46 in tracking -- that would rule him out .
> 
> To my eye he seems to be doing the whole thing as a good obedience exercise . Wonder if he knows why he is there , or why he is doing what he is doing. Don't get a sense of power .


I am new to all this and even I see what you mean by that in the video.


----------



## wolfstraum

Carmen - a score in a book without any knowledge of circumstances means nothing....I know of dogs with high scores that have no desire to track but were trained with force...and others who failed tracking when the track was laid over a groundhog hole or the whole track was under water....I remember one trial when every single dog but one failed and almost every track was in a partially flooded hay field....one of my articles was never found - probably floated off to the ocean was the joke! Some good dogs failed tracking that day.... without knowing more, I would never rule a dog out for breeding or buying progeny on the basis of a failed track...

As far as Timmy - if you have Nick, you have Timmy....  

I did look at Inox long and hard when I had Basha over in Belgium.....I was impressed by what he had done and produced at that point...there were some logistical problems, dont remember what, we used Zender for that heat...then next one ****** and she came home...

Lee


----------



## carmspack

hi Wolfstraum, about the tracking , this is often neglected in the discussion , all the emphasis usually on the protection portion of scores.
For my purposes tracking is very important , nose work, detection, as more and more real life dog-jobs become available . Those conditions you spoke about 

"the track was laid over a groundhog hole or the whole track was under water....I remember one trial when every single dog but one failed and almost every track was in a partially flooded hay field....one of my articles was never found - probably floated off to the ocean was the joke! "

The last portion about the article floating out to the ocean was funny but, it reminded me of a comment made by some LE O's who would give up saying "he must have got away in a car" and along comes Kai who tracks over lanes of highway , across ditches , into the fields, into the industrial park and makes the apprehension. You can run , but you can't hide!
This is normal for real - life , for SAR . Here is an account of a young dog just over 2 years http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/190311-carmspack-blast-new-title.html quote 'the conditions could not have been worse ---- here is Sue's account of things .

We had some record rainfall yesterday and overnight, with our roads covered in water across them, and raining this morning still.
Winds were supposed to be bad again today, but never got too much before our tracks were over, luckily.
Blast was no. 2 and that field meant the very long walk out to start, which is an issue for us as he’s straining to get there and choking, and my arm’s almost out of its socket!

We had two ditches, a dirt/gravel road crossing, some ruts where I almost fell
There were 8 legs, seemed really, really long, but showed as only 905m. 
he did it very quickly, I had to run a few times.-

-- areas with standing water '

Just the fact that no one else even noticed seems to indicate that people don't look so much at tracking . At the very least I would have a look at the overall trend . A dog can have a bad day. 

The one thing I look for when using titles as an aide in breeding decisions is FH's FH2 and the rare FH3 , or the presence of known producers (genetics) for tracking ability.


----------



## carmspack

news clipping Jan 8 1997 - Shoreline News - LEO Stewart and k9 officer Ace -- after a break and enter , k9 unit called in (Ace) and the dog tracked 4 kilometers into a residential area, and then located the suspect hiding under the porch of a neighbouring house . Arrest made, stolen items from that and previous break and enters recovered.

That was in January . An old , contaminated track, bitter cold , and high wind.


----------



## carmspack

the previous 3 posts could be moved to the Ideal GSD thread .


----------



## wolfstraum

well again - I have known several dogs who got lousy tracking/medicore scores - but are super driven on the track - it is just training and circumstantial. And I _*know*_ that the ability can be produced through several generations in spite of the scores...lol lol lol 

Lee


----------



## björn

lhczth said:


> The fact that Gundel goes back on Uno is enough for me to avoid that breeding. I have never liked that line going back on Major Phönix nor Boomer Emsbogen. Also again I would worry about elbows.


Why is that, isn´t that line more of a less sporty one if we look at dogs like uno and etzel stadtfelt and their offspring, not all of course but in general?

I think it isn´t drago himself that is sporty, yes he seems to have much preydive, but not the kind of softer type of dog that has prey and not so much else. His son that was showed as an example may not be sporty in the sense he is a soft dog but the overexcitement and frustated behaviour is what some would probably call a sportthing, easily excited dogs with much prey and the alertenss/liveliness to react quick which gives you flash and speed in sport, just like many malinois have. But of course, when that type of dog is triggered hard on sleeves,toys and corrected much because they are to excited to out then I guess what is genetic, possible nerveissue and what is created by the handler/training isn´t so clear, if we talk about dogs that screams/whines and act frustrated in general in various levels. But I guess the combination of high prey and quick to react dogs is in general easier to show that behaviour compared to a dog that is a little more "stable" and calm so to speak, for me it´s more impressive with a dog that is powerfull but still calm and clear in his work.

Drago may be a good producer, haven´t looked so much on his offspring so can´t tell, on the other hand I guess he isn´t so much different than all other studs that are promoted and popular for various reasons, some is more hype than others that time will tell, some don´t like them because it´s not their kind of dog. I see drago has similar lines like pike del lupo nero that seems to be another "IN" dog for the moment in EU, so is no shortage of dogs from similiar lines.


----------



## abakerrr

carmspack said:


> hi Wolfstraum, about the tracking , this is often neglected in the discussion , all the emphasis usually on the protection portion of scores.
> For my purposes tracking is very important , nose work, detection, as more and more real life dog-jobs become available . Those conditions you spoke about
> 
> "the track was laid over a groundhog hole or the whole track was under water....I remember one trial when every single dog but one failed and almost every track was in a partially flooded hay field....one of my articles was never found - probably floated off to the ocean was the joke! "
> 
> The last portion about the article floating out to the ocean was funny but, it reminded me of a comment made by some LE O's who would give up saying "he must have got away in a car" and along comes Kai who tracks over lanes of highway , across ditches , into the fields, into the industrial park and makes the apprehension. You can run , but you can't hide!
> This is normal for real - life , for SAR . Here is an account of a young dog just over 2 years http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/190311-carmspack-blast-new-title.html quote 'the conditions could not have been worse ---- here is Sue's account of things .
> 
> We had some record rainfall yesterday and overnight, with our roads covered in water across them, and raining this morning still.
> Winds were supposed to be bad again today, but never got too much before our tracks were over, luckily.
> Blast was no. 2 and that field meant the very long walk out to start, which is an issue for us as he’s straining to get there and choking, and my arm’s almost out of its socket!
> 
> We had two ditches, a dirt/gravel road crossing, some ruts where I almost fell
> There were 8 legs, seemed really, really long, but showed as only 905m.
> he did it very quickly, I had to run a few times.-
> 
> -- areas with standing water '
> 
> Just the fact that no one else even noticed seems to indicate that people don't look so much at tracking . At the very least I would have a look at the overall trend . A dog can have a bad day.
> 
> The one thing I look for when using titles as an aide in breeding decisions is FH's FH2 and the rare FH3 , or the presence of known producers (genetics) for tracking ability.



Being in law enforcement, I can tell you that the most important quality a patrol k9 has to offer is the ability to track. Though protection and apprehensions are impressive to watch, you can't bite em' if you can't catch em' and no amount of training in the world will ever surpass a dog that just naturally brings it. We have eleven dogs in our unit and I've been on several hot tracks with several different dogs. We all -know- which ones are gonna find the suspect and which ones are a toss up. 

One dog in particular, an eqidius dog, tracks like a machine. Has several real finds and grabs under his belt for violent felony crimes but the most impressive track I've ever personally seen him run was after a burglary from a convienence store. We showed up to assist another agency at about 430 am last October, raining, and it was absolutely pitch dark outside, the kind of night where you could see every single star in the sky. By the time we got there, scene was held for an hour. Window to the store was smashed, so we go in the front door with the dog to do a sweep of the store; came up empty handed. Property stolen, typical smash and grab. Handler brought the dog outside and started casting him into the wood line surrounding the store. Dog finds a bicycle and takes off into the woods in that direction. Starts raining harder and now I'm unhappy because I left my rain jacket in the truck. We tracked through the woods for a solid ten minutes and the dog emerges onto a road. I'm thinking "it's a wrap, guy got in a car". Dog shoots south down the road and starts tracking asphalt and the area next to the road which was all side dirt/ gravel. I mean literally pulling us down the road. Take roadways for a solid three quarters of a mile, at least. Enter a more residential area, neighborhood dog starts aggressively barking, Mic doesn't miss a beat. Dog starts pulling harder, were now at a dead sprint for a hundred yards. Dog suddenly shoots into a woodline and we see a really nice suburban house, hidden. Dog runs around back of the house and we find a ladder leaning up against the house to the roof of the attached garage. The house window right above the garage was cracked open and the light was on. Upon closer inspection, muddy foot prints with pieces of grass were all up the side of the ladder. Police work, they call that a clue. Handler gives the dog an atta'boy and dog happily sits next to him, ears back and tail wagging. Knock on the door, 15 year old kid emerges from the house with the stolen beer and cigarettes. Crime of the century? Of course not, plus he was just a kid. But would we have ever found that out if the dog didn't just naturally bring it? Not a shot. 

See, what most people don't understand is that when you're out there in that moment, you're pursuing someone or searching for something, it's incredibly clear to see what genetic tracking ability -really- is and -who- really has it.


----------



## wolfstraum

abakerrr - exactly!!!!!!!!! and it is evident watching dogs train and trial that many are trained and few are actually doing it for the sake of doing it!!!! Scores are deceptive!

Lee


----------



## lhczth

björn, I have just never cared for the dogs I have seen coming from those dogs. Extreme handler sensitivity and a lack of overall hardness. Just not my type of dogs. May be fine for others and I know those lines are showing up more in the sport type pedigrees. Major Phönix did seem to bring a more "correct" structure (depending on what one considers "correct").


----------



## carmspack

" And I _*know*_ that the ability can be produced through several generations in spite of the scores...lol lol lol "

much better option would be if the genetic "instinctive" tracking drive (which the RCMP demands) is in place in each and every generation, deliberately , dependably, reliably. My comment was that tracking is not the glamorous portion of schutzhund so your average trainer does it because it is required , and really does not evaluate a pedigree or a dog for this trait, spot light on protection.

exactly abakerr ! 

Same officer Stewart who had Ace , had another of my dogs Stryker , who also was in the papers . This dog saved a person's life. They (forgot if the person was male or female) had wandered off in the dead of night , totally inadequately dressed - mid January "cold snap" severe weather , howling artic winds, hard pack ice crust so not a hint of a foot print. Dog finds the person a good distance away huddled behind a small outbuilding . No pooling of scent.

In situations like this speed and accuracy matter . A matter of life or death.

Officer now has another one "Agro" .


----------



## carmspack

wolfstraum , never mind scores , mine don't have titles !! (because they are out at work)


----------



## Vandal

Regarding the comments about Drago in the video. 
There is no way to tell for sure, without seeing and working the dog, what is going on there. I watched the LGA video when it was posted a couple of years ago. At the time, I thought maybe Drago was sick during that trial because he looked so exhausted. I just watched a training video of obedience where he is very amped up, talkative the entire session and after 30 seconds or so, the tongue is really hanging out, like he just ran six miles.

I started thinking about a dog I worked a few years back who would get exhausted like that during protection. Within 15 to 20 seconds in front of the helper, he would be completely exhausted... bloodshot eyes and no bark...just bouncing with a kind of "woo woo" in place of a bark. Not exactly the same look as Drago but similar enough to make me wonder.

The people training the dog I just mentioned, tried to get a bark using electric, (collars and prods), water in his face, whiffle bats...you name it, they tried it, resulting in making matters worse. When he came here, I worked him more in a way to bring out who he really was. The difference in that dog was stunning. He went from no bark, exhaustion and those terrible bloodshot eyes after 15 seconds, to barking like a real dog, in over 100 degree temperatures, for extended periods of time. 

Anymore, trainers seem to be trying to fit the dog into their training method, no matter what the dog is trying to tell them. The dog I just mentioned had been trained completely wrong for who that dog was. He was quite a serious dog in protection, who's primary drive was not prey or play, (even though he has tons of prey drive). That was the way they tried to train him however, creating a significant conflict for the dog.
So much so, the stress of it all was shutting him down. Yes, I complain quite a bit about what is happening here with the "new methods". The dogs, as basic creatures, are still the same. Meaning, you have to work who the dog is. Some people seem incapable of understanding that and create a huge mess with a dog who might otherwise be a very good one. This happens when people try to work their own dog in protection as well. Again, some dogs just don't play and when you try, it all goes down the drain. 

Anyway, that MIGHT be the part of the confusion here between how he is described and what he shows on video. Having said that, I owned an Aron son and a Bandit son and worked direct decendants of the dogs further back in the pedigree. I have a pretty good idea what is coming thru those bloodlines and others in his pedigree. As most here are saying, the female will really matter and I doubt a forum is the ideal place to determine that.

If it were me, I would call Gary and get his opinion. He owns the dog, he knows dogs, (since he has been in GSDs, Police and SchH training forever), and will more than likely have the best answer.

One last comment. People should consider what their skill set is when buying certain dogs. Also, who they have to help them train. This is, after all, a team sport. Many people don't seem to factor that in, only to be frustrated with their choice of dogs. While great helper work makes all the difference for every dog, some dogs can handle work that is less skilled, better than others.


----------



## wolfstraum

Vandal said:


> _*One last comment. People should consider what their skill set is when buying certain dogs. Also, who they have to help them train. This is, after all, a team sport. Many people don't seem to factor that in, only to be frustrated with their choice of dogs. While great helper work makes all the difference for every dog, some dogs can handle work that is less skilled, better than others.*_


:toasting::toasting::toasting::toasting::toasting::toasting:

Probably the most important statement made here in forever!

Lee


----------



## lsatov

Well Carmen that is not quite true Carmspack Journey has her IPO1 with a 90 in tracking.

I worked with an indivivudal who certifies handler and dogs for bomb narcotic and sar and does much work in foreign country's. He would not train with me until he did and evaluation. If the dog does not have it, waste of time. Now he is 75 years old and is head space is yes you can train a dog that is not optimal but they are not reliable. If the conditions are not good do not know what you will get and in working dogs this is not acceptable in his eyes. 
Journey passed his evaluation infact he said it is a shame I am doing IPO and not challenging her true ability. Our track was mostly under water she did not have an issue, infact her last article had sunk by the end of the third leg, should have used wood but she found it.
Journey tracks through bees nesting in in the ground she tracks to track, the reward is the find. She was very easy to teach. Sid had me doing IPO3 tracks before we trialed for IPO 1. It took us 6-8/52 to do this. 
Many others tracking failed bcause of the water.


----------



## björn

lhczth said:


> björn, I have just never cared for the dogs I have seen coming from those dogs. Extreme handler sensitivity and a lack of overall hardness. Just not my type of dogs. May be fine for others and I know those lines are showing up more in the sport type pedigrees. Major Phönix did seem to bring a more "correct" structure (depending on what one considers "correct").


The studs from uno och etzel Im aware of is quite the opposite of handler sensitive and sporty, more praised for their hardness and strong character, like this dog that have had some nice offspring in sweden and denmark,
Cinto Von Ungalant


----------



## lhczth

Maybe a dog that produced well when crossed with a female that brought hardness (like Cinto's dam). I just didn't see this over here coming from Major or Boomer specifically. We don't get to see as many dogs as one might in Europe, but when I see the same trait fairly consistently I tend to avoid those dogs.


----------



## björn

Maybe uno and etzel produced better then than major and boomer, bringing hardness and character is more the way breeders seems to promote the studs/grandsons I´v seen from uno or etzel, like this uno son also in denmark, haven´t seen all of course


----------



## carmspack

bjorn , I wonder if you could tell us a bit about the typical raising experience of young pup - young dog and introduction to sport in your country . Typical if there is such a thing.

I think some dogs you see in sport "here" in North America are not seen at the best of their potential . There is such an urgency to get the young dog to the club and start the training , often focusing on the decoy portion , before the dog is ready. I think a lot of dogs are ruined.
This is where knowing the lines is important , how they mature.
Dog is not generic , one size fits all . 
If the dog has "it" , really and truly, everything should be available to work with when the dog is a year or older . If not , then you start to recognize that what you are working with is conditioning rather than the genetics.


----------



## björn

It depends on the person, but actual protectiontraining with a decoy isn´t started before the dog is more mature and you have a good controll and communication with the dog in general, there is many other things you can do untill then adapted to the age of the dog like basic nosework and obedience, speaking from the traditional working program in sweden but it goes for many doing IPO also I suppose. Maybe the difference is there are more clubs and people to train with, so there is more solutions and knowledge if a person has some form of problem in the training. I guess in US it´s more problematic to even find a training group not too far away, and I suppose it´s not always certain it´s the best guys to train with.


----------



## Jmoore728

I wish I could comprehend this conversation. I'm borderline terrified thinking about my next future GSD purchase after reading this post. I have much more to learn... 

How hard is it to find that "real" GSD with balanced drives and great nerves? I'm not worried about scoring points.


----------



## robk

Jmoore728 said:


> I wish I could comprehend this conversation. I'm borderline terrified thinking about my next future GSD purchase after reading this post. I have much more to learn...
> 
> How hard is it to find that "real" GSD with balanced drives and great nerves? I'm not worried about scoring points.


Oh, it's not as hard as some people on this forum would make you think.


----------

