# He's Injuring Others! What do I do????



## Kate_ (Sep 28, 2013)

I'm really worried and bit freaked out. I've been lurking on this forum for awhile and regret that this is the topic of my first post.

My GSD, Roscoe, attacked 3 dogs today. He bit and drew blood on two of them, seriously injuring one of those two. 

We were at a dog park playing fetch far away from any other dogs when a blue heeler suddenly ran across the park and jumped at my dog. Roscoe attacked. The two had separated on their own in seconds. Neither dog was bleeding but we left.

Called up a friend who we have regular doggy play dates with to see if we could play with them since our dp time got cut short. I took Roscoe and my other dog Annie over there to play. They have a 1yr old Great Dane, Brutus, and all the dogs get on great. Another playmate, a GSD, arrived later too. Roscoe was avoiding Brutus for some reason but playing with the GSD. Brutus would try and play with Roscoe but Ros would turn and bark at him. Normally he and Brutus can't get enough of each other...

A long story short we noticed a bloody spot on the Brutus's side. Looked like he'd been nipped. He went inside to get cleaned up. While the Brutus was inside I was talking with the other GSD owner when suddenly our dogs went for each other. Both GSDs had been by their respective owners' sides and then suddenly there was a snarling mass of fur between us two owners. 

The other GSD is a female and got severely bitten on the nose. Part of her nose was hanging off by the time we got them separated. They rushed her into a car to take to the vet. I haven't heard from them yet about her current condition. 

Roscoe was fine. No cuts or scraps I could find. He went over to go play with my other dog and acted fine. We came back home and he's acting normal. I'm scared to leave him with my other dog unsupervised though....

Roscoe has never shown any aggression previously. I've had him since he was a puppy; he's two now. He's never bitten another dog or been attacked before. He and my eskie, Annie, get on great. I'm just really freaked out. 

I called my family to ask for advice and Dad says to euthanize him. 'Once a dog attacks other dogs it's only a matter of time before he attacks you.' I think that sounds a bit extreme. I love Roscoe. He's never been any trouble before. Today though, fighting with the heeler, nipping the dane, and then mauling the GSD...I'm at a loss. 

Is it safe to leave him alone with Annie? Is he 'safe'? It's the sudden aggressive change in personality that really worries me. I don't know if I can trust this new development. Please help! :help:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kate_ said:


> I called my family to ask for advice and Dad says to euthanize him. 'Once a dog attacks other dogs it's only a matter of time before he attacks you.'


First...that is completely UNTRUE. Dog to dog aggression does not translate or carry over into human aggression.

Second, don't take this as a slam, but you did everything wrong today. When a dog is in a fight, their adrenalin is WAY up. It can takes weeks for it to come down. So he was all ramped up and then you put him with other dogs. I suspect that played a large role in the second fight.

So...what would I do?

1) Get a trainer. 


2) No more dog parks..EVER. Who knows what was going thru his mind when the heeler ran at him. He may have thought he needed to defend himself.

3) keep him separated from Annie for a bit. Crate and rotate for a week or so. Then closely watch them. Just because he attacked outside his pack does not mean he'll attack one in his pack. But be safe, not sorry.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When dogs get into fights their adrenaline is ramped up. I wouldn't have taken him to another play date after the first fight.
I wouldn't even think of euth'ing him either!!!!
Take control and manage him. Is he in any structured classes? Do you crate him?
I wouldn't leave him alone with Annie unsupervised.
GSD's are not dogs that can just randomly go and play with dogs they don't know....epecially when new ones are added to the mix. 
How old is Roscoe? Is he intact or neutered?


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I would get a trainer involved. Personally, I will not go to dog parks and I would never schedule a play date for my dog. I exercise him. We go to dog club once a week. Those dogs all have responsible owners and there is never a problem that blows out of control. 

Before a fight happens there are signs. When dogs are together they have to be supervised at all times. Not just being present, like actually paying attention to the dogs. My oldest dog just barely will raise one side of his lip showing his teeth. That was enough to start barking, then growling and sometimes a fight. It was so slight I missed it the first few times. I was wondering why the GSD was always getting in the oldest dogs face...well the older dog was being a turd. That has stopped!


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## JoeyG (Nov 17, 2013)

Don't put him down over that. he wont attack you or more then likely the dog he lives with. If you're upset he'll pick that up and then be tense. If you were already tense at the play date, that's probably why he was on edge himself. Dogs reflect our feelings so take a look at how you're handling it and that will tell you where his state of mind is. Find a good trainer that can help you get past it, the dog will be over it way before you will.


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## Kate_ (Sep 28, 2013)

We don't have a designated trainer per se. He's been through obedience and has his CGC. We can def look into contacting the club again for help. 

He has a crate but normally he's free during the day. Just sleeps in there at night. 

He 2 and is neutered. Annie is spayed. 

I had no idea about the adrenalin! Here I thought it would help to have a positive experience playing with other dogs we know.  

The only reason we go to the park is to play fetch for him. Our backyard is too small to really play fetch and he loves it. He does get two walks a day and on the weekends, like today, we make a point of going to play fetch somewhere to really wear him out. 

We've played with both Brutus and the other GSD multiple times and never had any issues. Honestly, neither the other GSD owner or I know who started it. We both thought the dogs were just hanging out by us since Brutus had gone in.

I just feel like such a bad dog person.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kate, don't beat yourself up....hopefully the nose on the other dog is not injured bad and the owners are forgiving, but expect to fork out $ for the vet bill(or at least 1/2). 
Get back into a club that knows the breed and keep on training!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Don't feel bad! It happens!

Who knows what started the last fight. One just could have gotten slightly tense and the other launched.

What's important going forward is you are proactive. Find a place to play fetch where there are no other dogs. He may have thought the other dog was going after his ball? And find a good trainer. I would look for a Schutzhund club so I found a trainer that was familiar with the breed or find a good trainer that knows about aggression. At 2 years old, he is maturing and that puppy attitude may be gone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

No your not a bad person you just made a mistake with a breed of dog that will show you where your flaws are if you screw up, somewhere along the line! Been there done that.

His pack member is most likely not in any sort of danger but as others have said he bears close watching.

And your friends,.. yeah my dogs don't know my friends have dogs! I never put my dogs at risk and never put anyone else's dog at risk. You put there dog in harm's way and she got hurt, apparently they knew no more than you but you'll be lucky if your friendship doesn't take a hit.

He has now demonstrated that he can't be trusted around other dogs! No more dog parks no more doggie intros...you've been warned! 

So what you do now determines what kind of guardian you are and finding a qualified certified trainer would be a step in the right direction. And no Petco's, not gonna cut it here for finding help!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh...24 to 30 months is when "flaws" in there training show up at maturity, yep I learned that one the hard way to!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> When dogs get into fights their adrenaline is ramped up. I wouldn't have taken him to another play date after the first fight.


 Absolutely.


> Is it safe to leave him alone with Annie?


 Not at the moment. But try to feed them together in the kitchen out of hand with both dogs sitting in front of you, avoid food dropping on the floor, thus you would help to re-establish old relationship.
I will try to explain what actually happen. You should have left when the first fight took place. Your dog was in a hot chase of his prey ( his ball). And the other dog tried to deprive him from his prey ( he read that jump as an attempt to do so). He definitely met that blue before, who appeared to him without much grudge that time, and then saw him in another light. "May be all of them are the same?" - that is what your dog thought. He behaved after with other two fights in a way a man will do, who was abused by someone at work, and it doesn't matter how their conflict ended, in his favour or not, he had a (verbal) fight. On his return home he would turn his anger onto his wife and his son, having a fight with both.
Of course, dogs are not people. We do not hold our bad experience in our box in order to use it in every possible situation, but dogs do. Your dad is right, but, obviously, he repeats somebody else's words. Your dog can bite you if you are rude to him right now, don't make it happen. Spend time with him, talk to him in a quiet soft voice, pity him, because he is very upset himself. No training for one month at least, walk to isolated places to play ball with him alone (don't take your other dog with you) and avoid meeting any dogs, because he wouldn't hesitate to show them that he is not someone to mess with. Try to avoid raising your voice at home for any reason for some days, if you can. And, if you decide to visit any dog park again - *don't have any toys with you, and your dog should be muzzled*. It was the ball, that made so much trouble. If it was your dog first time he went fighting other dogs - it means that the hormonal flow in his body is very strong, he became an adult. Your case is very typical to the majority of young males, take it easy. It is all right for GSD to be agressive, what is wrong - not to obey you. A trained dog must leave alone his slightest intention to start a fight by command. You need a trainer who doesn't teach abusing dogs, a kind one, you have time to do a research.


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## Kate_ (Sep 28, 2013)

So wait... get a trainer or "no training for one month at least"? 

I'm willing to do whatever I can to help Roscoe, and I know there will be differences of opinions, but I'm caught here. 

Do I go slow and give him a few weeks to have the adrenalin come down or contact a trainer and start working right away? 

Any ideas of where you guys exercise your dogs that are free of other pooches would be much appreciated. Like I said our backyard is tiny and not much good for anything other than taking care of business.

Thanks for all the advice so far! Keep it coming


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I wouldn't think about euthanizing him, gosh he has had his first play fight, he is not attacking people, he has had an altercation with another dog. 

These things happen so quickly and it is always the dog that comes off worse that is perceived as the innocent one, however - you don't know what happened to instigate Roscoe, the other GSD may have been opening staring, challenging him and he accepted the challenge. If we could always look at what happened a few seconds before the attack in slow motion, the answer might be Roscoe was provoked, not saying he was - but you don't know.

A lot of dogs just don't need to have play dates, they are just as happy walking, hiking with you. 

I would ditch the dog on dog playtime, only go to the dog park when there is no one or dogs you are familiar with that you know will mind their own business and just have one on one time with Roscoe. Find an area you can do lots of walking together, an area that is interesting with lots of different smells, like wooded areas etc.

They don't need to be with other dogs.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Kate_ said:


> So wait... get a trainer or "no training for one month at least"? ...Do I go slow and give him a few weeks to have the adrenalin come down or contact a trainer and start working right away?


I would start looking around for a trainer and maybe have an evaluation session, but you shouldn't start doing any rehabilitation exercises with him just yet. He needs time to chill out at home, away from other dogs. You can still have a private session with the trainer to observe him and take a history, though. Most trainers will want to do this before working with you anyway. The more history the better. One month seems kind of extreme though. Maybe see how he is in one week? Three days?

When you actually start working with a trainer, it will be a slow process and it will probably take a few sessions to figure out what a realistic goal is. Since this just happened, you don't yet know whether this is a problem that just requires management (i.e. no strange dogs, supervise play carefully to make sure adrenaline isn't too high) or if he is even going to start having trouble getting along with Annie. The latter would be something you would need to work diligently on, and prioritize that first before worrying about other dogs. But hopefully he won't be aggressive towards his own "pack" and you may get away with just staying away from dog parks and working on calmness exercises with your trainer. Just take things one step at a time and don't draw any sweeping conclusions about him yet.



> Any ideas of where you guys exercise your dogs that are free of other pooches would be much appreciated. Like I said our backyard is tiny and not much good for anything other than taking care of business.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice so far! Keep it coming


We have used public schoolyards, baseball fields, stadiums, pretty much any public place with a fence around it. You still have to check for other dogs when entering and leaving but they are less common. Going on off hours helps. Very rarely I have been able to go out hiking and have my dog off-leash, but only in bad weather on an access road where I can see for a good quarter mile that no one is coming. 

My dog also has aggression issues and I cannot take her to dog parks. She is just unreliable and there's no telling what sort of dogs you are likely to run into when you are out and about. The problem is that there are so many possible triggers, it can be hard to pinpoint exactly what sets her off, especially since she seems to like some dogs and hate others. Like your dog, it seemed to happen all of a sudden, but in retrospect there were signs that she was uncomfortable that I didn't take seriously. And it's not necessarily your fault- all dogs have different bite thresholds and some dogs will make a huge aggressive display and never bite. Other dogs have more of a hair trigger. You just can't know until something like this happens which it is. We had three different trainers tell us that her behavior around other dogs did not seem aggressive. They used other euphemisms like "curious, alert, anxious, protective," but you wouldn't know from watching her that she would bite. Yet dogs are dogs and any dog can bite because any dog has teeth.

Finally, none of this means he will bite you or that he has to be euthanized. Dog aggression isn't related to human aggression unless it's a dog that is just overall very fearful. I don't think euthanasia should be an option when you could solve the problem by simply giving up play dates. My dog never plays with other dogs. She plays with me and she is happy.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

"Any ideas of where you guys exercise your dogs that are free of other pooches would be much appreciated. Like I said our backyard is tiny and not much good for anything other than taking care of business.?"

Especially this time of the year many softball/baseball fields, and or tennis courts are fenced in and snow covered. I used those before living where we do now. If you are confident in his recall, we go to the local reservoir, and go to an area that is empty. We stand at the top and throw her ball down the outside. It's a quick way to get her some intense exercise in. She loves it...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kate_ said:


> So wait... get a trainer or "no training for one month at least"?
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


Get a trainer! Now!

You can do other things to tire him out in a small space. How big is your back yard?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

For exercise, Have you tried using a flirt pole or tug with him? You don't need a lot of space, tires them out and most dogs love it.


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## lennyb (Jan 1, 2014)

Not to sound stupid but what is a flirt pole? I've heard it mentioned but never described.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Flirt Pole
Flirt Pole, Dog Chase Exercise Toy from Squishy Face Studio


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

lennyb, you can easily and inexpensively make your own flirt pole. Mine is a horse lunge whip from Tractor Supply. Just tie a toy on the end. I use leather shoe laces to tie the toy.


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## lennyb (Jan 1, 2014)

Now I get it. I'm gonna have to get or make one. I bet my boys would love it.. Thanks..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Only thing I don't like here is feeding your guys within striking range of each other! Food aggression is bad news not saying that is an issue but why take the chance?

Just feed them separately is what I would do. Yes give the dog a break for awhile, look for a trainer and no Petco won't get it.

And I would absolutely stay away from dog parks,.,no ,it's empty now,no there are not other dogs around now etc etc. Your dog has already sent another dog to the hospital!! Isn’t that message enough?

That's why I don't take my dogs to a dog park. Your dog should not be around other dogs until something changes! Just don't.


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## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

Kate_ said:


> So wait... get a trainer or "no training for one month at least"?
> 
> I'm willing to do whatever I can to help Roscoe, and I know there will be differences of opinions, but I'm caught here.
> 
> ...


I would read through Davids posting history so you can make an informed decision add to whether you should follow his advice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Don't know where your at but I would take my guys to industrial parks on the weekends.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

One thing that concerns me is that he attacked the second dog which if I read correctly is a female. It is rare for males to attack females and, to me, this is an indication that the dog may, indeed, be generally dog agressive. 

I got the impression that you and the other GSD owner were facing one another talking - this gave me the impression that the dogs were facing one another too. Not comfortable for dogs. Especially given the day...

Anything more I have to say has been said by others.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i don't think i would ever play fetch with my dogs with others around. they are to ramped up, i would go somewhere and play where there aren;t any dogs around.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

First -- no, do not even think of euthanizing your dog. Your is right to be concerned, but putting him to sleep is a bit to extreme.

I have recently been in your exact same situation with my 8 mo male pup, Titan. I took him to dog parks due to the lack of space in the city. I let him off leash because he was super friendly with all dogs and humans alike. I chatted away with owners while my dog played with other dogs. All good until one toy-possessive lab bit him over a stick tug. Now, Titan is reactive and goes after every dog he sees. I live in a dense apartment complex laden with off leash ill-mannered dogs that get at Titan's face all the time. It was never an issue, but now, it is a living nightmare. He is going back to his breeder (also a very accomplish working line GSD trainer) to chill of for a few weeks and get his obedience upped so he is more manageable. 

Few important lessons I learned very quickly:

- No dog parks. I expect almost no one to be responsible there because responsible owners don't go to dog parks.
- To that end, off-leashing is okay only when you have a 100% recall and there are no other dogs present. Even then, it is a very calculated risk. If something spooks the GSD, most of than not, the first line of defense is attack. That, especially for a smaller dog could be fatal very quickly.
- Your dog really does not need to "play" with other dogs to live a very happy, fulfilled life. He needs to learn to be tolerant and not stressed about them. If he can play, that is great, but it is not a requirement. YOU are his best friend, his playmate, his everything. And the best times he has is when he does everything he loves, with YOU. So make sure you become the person, your dog thinks (wants) you are.
- Structured training is of utmost importance. My pup is 82 lbs (and quite lean) at 8 months. He needs to be in absolute control all the time or it wont end well for other dogs who get at his face, which in turn means misery for him, and me. It is a ticking time bomb without training.

I hope this helps. Good luck!


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

You've gotten some good advice, and some that seems dodgy, so please don't try to implement EVERYTHING you've read here. Here's the stuff I agree with (in my somewhat limited real life experience and tons of reading-learnings): There is absolutely no need to consider euthanasia at this point in time. Don't allow your two dogs alone together unsupervised at all, and create positive opportunities for them to have some limited interaction. Hand feeding them on opposite sides of your body if they seem to be comfortable with it is a great way to help make the connection that the other dog = good things stick in their heads more solidly. Talk to a trainer who has experience with aggressive dogs, and preferably one who uses more of a positive approach to working with them (and a proactive approach, as in keeping them apart unless supervised etc). Empty softball fields, playgrounds, whatnot are good places in cold weather to get some exercise. With my huskies that could NOT be offleash at all, I had 50 or 100 ft leads so they could get some running in. For this dog, no dog parks at all anymore. In fact, this is a good candidate for a dog that should simply learn to ignore other dogs completely, and doesn't particularly need dog/dog playtimes. 

Something else I wondered, are you sure he actually did nip/bite Brutus? Either way, it was probably more due to his stress hormones being ramped up high, and less to do with something you did terribly wrong (we sometimes have to learn things the extra hard way, and I'm sorry you're learning this now). Hopefully you're either splitting the bill or paying outright for the other GSDs injuries, as that would be the ethical thing to do (in my opinion). And hopefully the other dog is okay as well. 

One last thing... take it easy on yourself, you might already be blaming yourself like mad and so on, but keep in mind that all too many of us have been through this or something similar. Do something to relax yourself, and then spend a little time just being relaxed and chilling with your dog. Flirt poles kick butt, and wear dogs out.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I guess I'm a few days late to this thread; everyone else has pretty much already summed it up.

1. After an altercation, it's best to just take the dog home and let them chill out. You're likely to get a domino effect if you continue play... as you very well found out through trial and err  To have bitten the other dog's nose that bad means your dog was very ramped up. Most altercations leave scraps and puncture wounds... I'm interested to know how he managed to do that much damage... were you pulling the dogs apart as he had ahold of the other dogs muzzle? 

2. Euthanasia is not necessary. Training, on the other hand, is... I'd recommend finding a trainer that is fluent in dog body language so he/she can let you know if there are subtle things going on that your dog is trying to communicate.

3. A dog that shows aggression to another dog is not necessarily going to ever show aggression toward a person. They are completely separate types of aggression.

4. A dog that shows aggression to dogs outside its house is not necessarily going to ever show aggression to those dogs inside its house. (I had a shepherd who loved the indoor cat, but if he ever saw a cat outside he'd probably chase it down and kill it! I trusted him 100 percent with the house cat)

How's your dog? How's the other shepherd doing? Any updates??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Unless you know what you are doing can see the signs, read your dog, or know hes not posessive the following as you have seen can trigger a fight.

Toys (especially when a dog is using one with you in some sort of play interaction)
A third dog entering the fray when two dogs are already paired up playing especially if it turns into a two dogs chasing one situation.
A dog ignoring the "lets stop" signals during play and contining to harass.
Standing too close to your dog while it is playing with another dog
If a dog your dog is not very familiar with attempts to jump on you or play in a way that might be misconstrued as an attack.
Hotspot competition over water or food bowls or a bed

There are others but thats all i can think of atm


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Kate_ said:


> I called my family to ask for advice and Dad says to euthanize him. 'Once a dog attacks other dogs it's only a matter of time before he attacks you.' I think that sounds a bit extreme. I love Roscoe. He's never been any trouble before. Today though, fighting with the heeler, nipping the dane, and then mauling the GSD...I'm at a loss.


When I was growing up dogs that attacked, were instantly put down so I know where your dad is coming from. However, times have changed and some dogs can be saved. If you are willing to put the time and the effort and the money into working with a trained expert then please do so. If not then do put him down.


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