# Can't say "that never happened before" again



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Result......my intact bitch GSD bit a man in the forearm....three punctures with a bit of flayed skin.....blood but not excessive......bleeding stopped in 15 minutes or so...checked up on him an hour later...wounds looked good...no stitches required IMO.

Scenario....dog in motor home....RV park host was a dog enthusiast....he saw and heard my dog and wanted to pet her even though my dog was in guard mode.....I unfortunately capitulated.....opened door...had my dog by collar....no leash attached....dog still going off...he advanced with arm out to pet dog....dog bit his forearm in a heartbeat....blew me away.

My takeaway....I was an idiot...... lulled into complacency by the man's willingness, lack of fear..etc. I knew better but yielded to the man's desire to meet my dog...yet I should have set up the meet and greet in a completely different environment....I harshly corrected my dog immediately....all was over. Put dog on 6 foot lead and my dog and the man met in a normal civil fashion....no aggression.

Question...my dog has now bitten while in a territorial, guarding, excited, whatever you want to call it state....does this change everything going forward in my dog's world.....or do I just not need to be an idiot again? No BS responses please....as in no sugarcoating.

Thanks,

SuperG


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Dang, that just sucks. I know from experience my dogs are more wary and on guard when we are camping. I'm not sure why, whether it's just being out of their comfort zone,being tied out or all the unusual smells and habitat. I think just be aware, and cautious. Now you know, and I think now I know to take extra care even more than what is normal.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... that just sucks!! Off the top of my head ... I'll say "territorial aggression???" In as much as I have a "GSD" that I am still highly cautious of in allowing "strangers to actually pet." But what I have observed is that mine, is a lot more tolerant of "Strangers" when he is not on his home turf. If strangers come into our house ... for "Rocky" ... "Place" it is and for guest ... "hands off" period end of story!

But for me ... I saw many, many years ago why that was a good policy. Low growl and a hard stare was how he greeted company ... good enough. I don't know if your dog ever did that???


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Question: how did the man take it? Did he require it be reported? Is he one of the 'cool' 'I understand dog screwed up won't press charges ' kind of guy? I hope so... Unfortunately, dogs are dogs and they can perceive a threat that doesn't exist. Shocking the bite actually happened and I would be on guard always, just because.. Definitely wouldn set up scenarios with trained individuals so that I could monitor dogs reaction and mitigate/correct if needed.. Sorry this happened


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Moving forward you are more careful. I think you might be lucky that this particular person is a dog enthusiast. I know that I personally would never sue anyone if a dog bit me, especially if I approached and the dog was clearly not happy. 

Lesson learned. You now know your dog will bite under certain circumstances.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Wait...so the dog was going off and you still thought it was a good idea to let the guy stick his forearm out to it? That all sounds like the obvious would come next. Idk maybe I'm way off base here but a dog going off seems like a good indication that now isn't the time for a pet. 

To me it doesn't sound like a bad dog just a scenario kinda like you'd run into in training. Bark til the guy gives his arm and bite. So to answer your question as you asked it yes don't be an idiot again. A dog showing obvious signs of being ready to guard isn't the right time for a friendly pat on the head from a stranger. It's your job to control those situations because the dog is going to do what it's been trained to do.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ksotto333....yep...it sux...I'm beside myself for being so inept and letting my guard down...I knew better.


Chip18.....agreed...she's one **** of a guarder of her perceived territory....even though it's my "territory"....no low growl.....just obvious alerting and posturing....and my general SOP is hands off and under my command.....I obviously failed in this particular situation.

Hineni7....The guy assumed responsibility...he was a gentleman....he said it was his fault as this is what a GSD should do...he learned a lesson he said....FWIW...I got his name and address and told him him I would make it proper once I got home...he said no need....I did find out he likes a sip of tequila....so I will send him a top notch bottle of tequila once I get home...small price to pay for taking a bite at my lacking.... I know how to introduce my dog to this situation so this would have never happened......BUT.....I failed because of the enthusiasm of the man....my fault....never again while my dog is in that mode.

llombardo.......exactly!

Question still.......even though I corrected my dog strongly.....does this event make a dog more apt to bite again?

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

thegooseman90 said:


> Wait...so the dog was going off and you still thought it was a good idea to let the guy stick his forearm out to it? That all sounds like the obvious would come next. Idk maybe I'm way off base here but a dog going off seems like a good indication that now isn't the time for a pet.
> 
> To me it doesn't sound like a bad dog just a scenario kinda like you'd run into in training. Bark til the guy gives his arm and bite. So to answer your question as you asked it yes don't be an idiot again. A dog showing obvious signs of being ready to guard isn't the right time for a friendly pat on the head from a stranger. It's your job to control those situations because the dog is going to do what it's been trained to do.



Agreed.....wish I could argue with you....but you are spot on......


SuperG


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Question...my dog has now bitten while in a territorial, guarding, excited, whatever you want to call it state....does this change everything going forward in my dog's world.....or do I just not need to be an idiot again? No BS responses please....as in no sugarcoating.


Since your dog has a bite history with a pretty bad bite, it may change your homeowners insurance situation...in a not good way. 

Many policies exclude dogs with bite histories from coverage (so no future bites will ever be covered). The policy terms may even require it to be disclosed, even though there's no claim. Go and dig out your actual insurance contract (not the renewal), with all the endorsements and exclusions, and read it carefully. 

Monkeying around on this (e.g., "forgetting" to disclose that you have a dog with a bite history, if it turns to be required) can void your entire insurance policy (i.e., your house burns down, they look for a reason not to pay a big claim, then they find out you "misrepresented a material risk" in the policy formation on _anything _(incl. the dog), so they void your policy retroactively to not cover you...something called "rescission"... which some states DO allow them get away with. When there's a six-figure claim, some companies try anything they can to get out of paying it, just when you need your insurance the most. You might think "how would they find out?" During litigation, it's increasingly common to ask for your Internet forum and social media account info to see what you've posted online...and well... 

It might be worth paying for an hour of an insurance lawyer's time to figure it out -- it's probably very dependent on your state's specific law, and your policy terms. A professional could help you figure out if you have any disclosure obligation, and whether you need an additional liability policy for the dog.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Since your dog has a bite history with a pretty bad bite, it may change your homeowners insurance situation...in a not good way.
> 
> Many policies exclude dogs with bite histories from coverage (so no future bites will ever be covered). The policy terms may even require it to be disclosed, even though there's no claim. Go and dig out your actual insurance contract (not the renewal), with all the endorsements and exclusions, and read it carefully.
> 
> ...


Thank you.......my wife is savvy in the homeowner's insurance sector ....you are exactly correct....the question asked when applying for insurance is " any bite history...regardless of claims filed"


SuperG


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't think it fundamentally changes the dog- one event doesn't mean the dog suddenly changes inherited genetic characteristics that lead to the bite.

I do think you need to be a lot more careful, as you know, from now on.

I'd do whatever I could to make nice to the guy who was bitten. Sure it was partly his fault, but dog bites are big business and that sounds like a pretty severe bite. Be aware that bites like this can get easily infected. If he ends up at the ER or clinic, they are going to have to report the bite and probably quarantine the dog, hopefully at home. Not sure about the rules in Canada. 

I'm sorry this happened. We are all human and even when we try our best, mistakes happen sometimes. Dogs are dogs, and the scenario sounds like the perfect set up for a bite, unfortunately. It's very similar to how they train dogs to bite in protection work. I hope it all turns out OK. I'm sure you are shaken up.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Oh man!Sorry this happened to you,and of course the RV park guy.
I would think it may be more likely she would bite again.The bite was successful in removing the guy out of her space - and dogs will repeat behaviors that are are successful for them.Especially under duress/pressure they default to a reaction instantaneously.Just my two cents.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> I would think it may be more likely she would bite again.The bite was successful in removing the guy out of her space - and dogs will repeat behaviors that are are successful for them.Especially under duress/pressure they default to a reaction instantaneously..


This is what I was curious about. My correction.....whether people agree or disagree was....she was on a flat collar....my hand was in control of the collar....when she lit up on the individual....I twisted the collar at least 180 degrees and slowly lifted the dog upward.....effectively cutting off her air supply...which is an effective corrective measure usually.........even with that being said........I somewhat doubt that the correction outweighed the instinctive " default to a reaction instantaneously."...so that is the nature of my question regarding going forward......I assume a dog getting the bite in....when amped up.....requires a correction that might be "difficult" for many to administer.....as well as making the dog understand the potential consequence.


SuperG


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I get what you're saying.There was an instant consequence...but nevertheless it worked for her.You could possibly train a new default behavior of your choice?I'm just being philosophic.I honestly don't know


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

To be honest I don't think a one time correction like that will make or break an action. I don't think the correction was severe enough that she'll never bite again but I also don't think that from that one time she's learned to bite people to get rid of them. Plus she proved herself to be social with the same guy under different circumstances later on. 

I guess it's a situation where time will tell but her behavior in of itself I don't think is bad. A stranger came up and she perceived a threat and took action when he reached for her. Next time it could be a guy with a knife and you wouldn't want her to shy away from taking action, right?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I did find out he likes a sip of tequila....so I will send him a top notch bottle of tequila once I get home...small price to pay for taking a bite at my lacking


Well on that point ... I'd simply say ... a bottle of Bourbon for me and we'd be good.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> This is what I was curious about. My correction.....whether people agree or disagree was....she was on a flat collar....my hand was in control of the collar....when she lit up on the individual....I twisted the collar at least 180 degrees and slowly lifted the dog upward.....effectively cutting off her air supply...which is an effective corrective measure usually.........even with that being said........I somewhat doubt that the correction outweighed the instinctive " default to a reaction instantaneously."...so that is the nature of my question regarding going forward......I assume a dog getting the bite in....when amped up.....requires a correction that might be "difficult" for many to administer.....as well as making the dog understand the potential consequence.
> 
> 
> SuperG


You handled it appropriately once the situation unfolded. But I think your question is centered more around the why??? I saw early on, indications with my GSD differences in behaviour between at home and out and about behaviour. 

Prior to this had you ever noted a difference in her people at home and people out and about behaviour?? I'm still cautious with "Rocky" when out and about but at home save for a very few ... it's just a flat NO!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gosh, I can see why a dog might be more likely to react in an RV/camping scenario. Dogs are creatures of habit. They tend to like to be home. Camping is like home away from home, and I suppose that could make a dog feel a bit out of the ordinary. An RV is like a home, but also like a vehicle. Most dogs aren't too crazy about people coming into or being close to their vehicle, sometimes moreso than their home. So coming into the RV while she was already a little wigged out by being home but not home, may have just been enough to make that really bad decision. 

Sorry this happened. I hope it is all ok.

Yesterday, I was digging and digging and digging on the coat of my 1 year old female, Ramona. And she was being patient, but it was painful, and then the roof guys come up. Bear is barking from her right, and Odie is barking from her left and these guys are coming up behind me to get to their ladder. She made an impressive adult bark. 

The contractor, that has worked on various projects for me for 20 years or so, came up, offering to meet her. And I told him flat out, no, I've been sawing away at her for half an hour and I don't want something negative to happen. Thankfully, he moved away from her. And nothing happened. I guess the point is, that sometimes we have to give our critters more space when their threshold has a reason to be lower, regardless to previous behavior.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

SuperG said:


> This is what I was curious about. My correction.....whether people agree or disagree was....she was on a flat collar....my hand was in control of the collar...*.when she lit up on the individual....I twisted the collar at least 180 degrees and slowly lifted the dog upward.....effectively cutting off her air supply.*..which is an effective corrective measure usually.........even with that being said........I somewhat doubt that the correction outweighed the instinctive " default to a reaction instantaneously."...so that is the nature of my question regarding going forward......I assume a dog getting the bite in....when amped up.....requires a correction that might be "difficult" for many to administer.....as well as making the dog understand the potential consequence.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Did she release on her own or was it due to the twisting of the collar?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I'm not one to point fingers and I don't know the history of you and this dog??? So I'll simply ask ... did the dog ever give you any indication that it had a people issue in the past???


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think you'll be more aware of situations and potential issues going forward. Varik is very territorial around his vehicle, but perfectly approachable if just in public. He's also territorial about his house. I just never let people approach him at the vehicle and also they can admire him from afar (workmen, etc that come to the house) and don't do meet/greet.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Did she release on her own or was it due to the twisting of the collar?


Released on her own.....

SuperG


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Now you know. A bottle of tequila is a good ideas he probably needs it- Im sure you do to. You just have to vigil she does not act on perceives false threats. Max is territorial about his property and home. Awhile ago the pizza guy had bad nervous tick and was pretty nervous about figuring out cash and when giving me my change back - we put Max away when the pizza guy comes over. What can you do in this situation be greatful this man doesn't call the town and beware of your dogs threshold knowing when to avoid contact and work on stays. She may try this again not sure the correction out weighed the behavior.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Well I'm not one to point fingers and I don't know the history of you and this dog??? So I'll simply ask ... did the dog ever give you any indication that it had a people issue in the past???


My dog has civilly met all kinds of people over the years....the only times I have ever noticed an "attitude" with strangers is when she is in the house observing people outside...same goes for the motor home...as well as in the car....no doubt she displays a guarding/territorial/alerting in these situations...seems normal enough. When we meet people when out and about....while she is on a lead....she used to forge toward them but not aggressively. I curtailed this habit and her default is to sit in the heel position while I talk with the person....if the person wants to meet the dog at this point.....I release her....she gives them a sniff or two.....person pets the dog for a bit and the dog generally returns to my left side and either sits or lies down until we leave. 

Now that I've had some time to think about it some more....I simply failed to let the dog adequately transition from her guarding mode due to the situation.....I departed from our SOP....no lead on her....I had her by the collar...and the encounter took place immediately outside the motor home door....she came out amped up...and the gentleman moved toward her rather boldly...reaching toward her....I don't blame my dog.....I blame myself even though the man took ownership of his actions....it just seemed so odd that this man continued to move in.....

SuperG


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That makes sense to me.My dogs have always required transition periods when greeting guests.Whether from being stupidly over friendly or in guarding mode.Glad everything is ok now.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

SuperG said:


> My dog has civilly met all kinds of people over the years....the only times I have ever noticed an "attitude" with strangers is when she is in the house observing people outside...same goes for the motor home...as well as in the car....no doubt she displays a guarding/territorial/alerting in these situations...seems normal enough. When we meet people when out and about....while she is on a lead....she used to forge toward them but not aggressively. I curtailed this habit and her default is to sit in the heel position while I talk with the person....if the person wants to meet the dog at this point.....I release her....she gives them a sniff or two.....person pets the dog for a bit and the dog generally returns to my left side and either sits or lies down until we leave.
> 
> Now that I've had some time to think about it some more....I simply failed to let the dog adequately transition from her guarding mode due to the situation.....I departed from our SOP....no lead on her....I had her by the collar...and the encounter took place immediately outside the motor home door....she came out amped up...and the gentleman moved toward her rather boldly...reaching toward her....I don't blame my dog.....I blame myself even though the man took ownership of his actions....it just seemed so odd that this man continued to move in.....
> 
> SuperG


That really does seem odd. Yes, there are things you could have done differently. There always seems to be when something goes wrong involving our dogs. But I can't for the life of me understand people who either rush in to pet a new dog/puppy they've never met (rather than letting it investigate them and adjust slowly) or who go in to pet or engage even when the dog shows through posture and body language or vocally that they're not welcome.

Personally when I meet a new dog or even a dog/person we've seen many times I always ask permission before I touch the dog and I never just "go in". Dogs are like people. Some have bad days, some don't like strangers and some don't want to be touched or petted all the time even by familiar people. To me the guy was kind of asking for it even though you have said what you'd have done differently.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Only read your OP, but I'm really sorry this happened.

Our state's dog bite laws are heavily, heavily biased toward the victim. It sucks.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Okay, I can chime in with a similar experience.

I took my dog to the cabin last year, for a week. We were alone there for most of that time. My uncle drove over one day to see us and the dog. (My dad's family are big dog people.)

My dog is usually friendly and social, and she's almost never shown aggression. Some territorial behavior, but nothing out of the ordinary for a dog. Certainly low level for a GSD. She's a mild mannered dog who will tolerate toddlers smacking her around.

She also takes protecting me pretty seriously, apparently. My uncle showed up, and it was a lucky thing I had her leashed, because I think for a second, she wanted to kill him. She saw a strange man approaching me and was all set to do battle. I'd never seen anything like that out of her. I firmly put her in a down-stay, informed her calmly but in no uncertain terms that I was in control ("You're fine, I've got this"), and apologized to my uncle, who had just seen his life flash before his eyes. I made her hold that down-stay and then had him exchange pieces of cheese for "touch" commands to establish that he was a friend. And after that they were fine.

I don't expect my dog to be any different after that, and she in fact has been nothing but her usual calm, social personality - but it did tell me that she has that side to her and I should always be aware that it can pop out. We were just lucky she didn't connect teeth to flesh. It certainly tells me I'll keep her leashed in similar situations no matter what.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think this is a good example of why we should not give dogs so much responsibility in discerning a threat from non-threat. I don't know the character of the OP's dog, and I'm not saying the OP was even expecting discernment, but whenever I hear a person say that a GSD should somehow intuit threat from non-threat every time... I think of a situation like this. Management, training... don't put such a huge burden on your dog.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> I think this is a good example of why we should not give dogs so much responsibility in discerning a threat from non-threat. I don't know the character of the OP's dog, and I'm not saying the OP was even expecting discernment, but whenever I hear a person say that a GSD should somehow intuit threat from non-threat every time... I think of a situation like this. Management, training... don't put such a huge burden on your dog.


I see that a lot in Facebook groups related to GSDs. "So glad I have a dog that can defend us" - "I feel much safer walking with my dog than I ever did before" - "Who else feels like they have a protective nature and are good guard dogs?" - "I'm so glad my dog can watch my kids playing outside, we live in a bad area". And whenever someone comments that they may have that nature or instinct but it requires great lengths of training they get shouted down and/or banned. It reminds me of people who get a hand gun and take no training courses and automatically expect they're now prepared for any situation. Sure, they have a drive for it. Just like a person may have a knack for hitting targets. But when it gets down to the reality of it they need training. Threat recognition, when to alert, when to attack, weapon recognition/reaction, so on. Until then they're just as likely to bite the **** out of your uncle when he comes by to check on the house as they are to lick the guy breaking in. Sometimes people expect way too much. Not saying the OP did at all, but so many people do.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> I think this is a good example of why we should not give dogs so much responsibility in discerning a threat from non-threat. I don't know the character of the OP's dog, and I'm not saying the OP was even expecting discernment, but whenever I hear a person say that a GSD should somehow intuit threat from non-threat every time... I think of a situation like this. Management, training... don't put such a huge burden on your dog.


I agree. If she gives me a signal like stepping in front of me or shows unease with something, I tend to pay attention because she isn't typically like that - I do trust her to a large degree - but it's ultimately not her responsibility.

I like knowing my dog will step up if she perceives a threat. It's also on me to manage it because good or even excellent instincts are not perfect instincts. I'm still the human: I'm still more intelligent and can still take context into consideration better than she can. At the end of the day, it's my responsibility to protect her and sometimes that means protecting her from herself.

By the way, this is the kind of scenario in which I do not correct, but I tell her, "I've got this" and I handle it. I don't correct because there might be a day when I want her to react exactly like that and I'll let her have at it because that reaction could save me. But I tell her clearly when I expect her to stand down, and thankfully she trusts me enough to do so.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I suppose it's too late to get the guy sauced on tequila and when he comes to the next day tell him how he wrestled a bear and saved several campers in the process... :smile2:

In all seriousness, sorry it happened and hope things can be ironed out with good result.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> That makes sense to me.My dogs have always required transition periods when greeting guests.Whether* from being stupidly over friendly *or* in guarding mode*.Glad everything is ok now.


LOL ... I like that ... I kinda miss those days. I don't have that problem with Rocky. And my Bandog and my Boxer ... did not know what "guard mode was??" They never met a "stranger they did not like.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Okay, I can chime in with a similar experience.
> 
> I took my dog to the cabin last year, for a week. We were alone there for most of that time. My uncle drove over one day to see us and the dog. (My dad's family are big dog people.)
> 
> ...


 just gonna add A+ on the "Down" as opposed to "Sit." It's the little things that make a difference.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> This is what I was curious about. My correction.....whether people agree or disagree was....she was on a flat collar....my hand was in control of the collar....when she lit up on the individual....I twisted the collar at least 180 degrees and slowly lifted the dog upward.....effectively cutting off her air supply...which is an effective corrective measure usually.........even with that being said........I somewhat doubt that the correction outweighed the instinctive " default to a reaction instantaneously."...so that is the nature of my question regarding going forward......I assume a dog getting the bite in....when amped up.....requires a correction that might be "difficult" for many to administer.....as well as making the dog understand the potential consequence.
> 
> 
> SuperG


You handled it appropriately once the situation unfolded. But I think your question is centered more around the why??? I saw early on, indications with my GSD differences in behaviour between at home and out and about behaviour. Prior to this ... it sounds like you've never had a problem??? 

I think ultimately you just caught out by ... territorial aggression ... you are driving her home, out and about. And you got caught off guard by ... "Stupid Behaviour" from well a Male. The guy sounds like he just pretty much barged in there to pet your dog! And generally speaking most "women" just don't tend to do that??? 

A Pro would not do that and a knowledgeable dog owners would not do that. Apparently that guy was neither one??? I had the opportunity to observe and shield "Rocky" from uh stupid, early on because he was ... uncomfortable around people. Hence my "Body Block" and people would have to get pass me ... to get to him. But ... unlike you ... I knew out the gate I had an issue??? So I was not taking chances but ... by doing that I also learned how he reacted and by and large ... he would stand behind me and do nothing. And I'd then decide if it was a yes or no. Sometimes it was yes and with pre-intervention... greetings went fine. 

After many many months of that ... I tended to relax and Rocky was allowed off leash in public and if I stopped and talked he would typically ... step 5 feet away and lay down and wait ... I never said a word to him ... that's just what he did. 

Then one day I noted something different I stopped to talk to a Ex-military vet. And my back was to Rocky off lead and he did as expected stepped away and laid down. It was a long conversation as he was a dog guy. I then noticed he appeared to be looking at something over my shoulder??? I turned my head and then spun around and saw (admittedly in a clearly friendly manner) Rocky walking toward the guy??? I kinda freaked the guy out at that point becasue I spun and commanded "Down!" Admittedly it was a bit of overkill and yeah, I freaked the guy out by my reaction but at that point I'd not ever seen Rocky actually want to engage anyone??? 

The second time it happened ... I got caught in a mob as it were ... and again an ex vet. He stopped us talked to me asked about Rocky ... he just ignored "Rocky" while we spoke and asked if he could pet Rocky and I said yes and OK to Rocky. And once again Rocky approached and greeted the guy like they were old friends this time ... which he had tried to do with the first guy!!! I'd not seen that before, Rocky wanting to engage strangers. Usually he could careless if people petted him after ... a brief interview by me. Someone on here said with the Vet's, most likely it was about posture and bearing ... I forgot to acknowledge that point to them my bad and pretty sure they had it right. 

Round three ... we got stopped by a female ... she was into ,GSD rescue and she had experiance with "Wobble" dogs. She simply stood at a respectful distance and asked questions (while her husband waited in the car) ... she never asked to pet "Rocky" and I pretty much never volunteer to allow it, but Rocky laid down while we talked and no issues. 

We were talking for quite a bit and Rocky just laid down a couple feet behind me. And then ... her husband bored of waiting, got out of the car ... pretty much barely acknowledged me and just proceeded towards "Rocky???" 

Now these days ... I'am a bit more lax ... in the old days I'd have not allowed that to happen. But inasmuch I'd never seen any public issues ... with Rocky ... I was not expecting any issues?? But you know ... "WTH???" That kinda approach was not good. But unlike you ... I got lucky. Rocky was clearly uncomfortable!! But he had lots of experiance in not biting the crap out of people ... but I was watching "Rocky" and I was not liking what I was seeing! So I pretty much did a "wow ... look at the time bit" and got the heck out of Dodge!" I got lucky ... as "Rocky's" default was I don't bite the crap out of people while dad talks but he clearly did not like that guys approach!! 

But you ran into two issues ... I think, territorial aggression and a freaking tool of a dog guy! On home turf ... Rocky only has two people I trust to be with him unsupervised ... anyone else, comes over he stays in "Place" and hands off ... not worth the trouble to me. At anyrate sorry that happened ... just trying to provide some incite.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Result......my intact bitch GSD bit a man in the forearm....three punctures with a bit of flayed skin.....blood but not excessive......bleeding stopped in 15 minutes or so...checked up on him an hour later...wounds looked good...no stitches required IMO.
> 
> Scenario....dog in motor home....RV park host was a dog enthusiast....he saw and heard my dog and wanted to pet her even though my dog was in guard mode.....I unfortunately capitulated.....opened door...had my dog by collar....no leash attached....dog still going off...he advanced with arm out to pet dog....dog bit his forearm in a heartbeat....blew me away.
> 
> ...


Being restrained by the collar is what caused all the trouble. All you did was wind her up for the bite via frustration. When we want dogs to bite the sleeve or tug in IPO, we do it by holding them back while the helper builds up their drive for the bite.

Is the guy going to take any kind of legal action?

If you get lucky and you don't get sued, the dog needs serious training. If you had been able to put her on a long down, the bite never would have happened.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

zetti said:


> Being restrained by the collar is what caused all the trouble. All you did was wind her up for the bite via frustration. When we want dogs to bite the sleeve or tug in IPO, we do it by holding them back while the helper builds up their drive for the bite.
> 
> 
> If you had been able to put her on a long down, the bite never would have happened.


I appreciate your reiteration of the obvious.....I exited the motor home door with the dog by the collar...intention was to leash the dog...acquire some open space for the dog's "comfort"...which my original post described ...." Put dog on 6 foot lead and my dog and the man met in a normal civil fashion....no aggression."

Maybe I failed to describe the situation properly......upon exiting the motor home door....the gentleman advanced...arm extended.....the dog had no maneuvering room.....as she literally had her back up against a wall...so...this was not a failure of the dog .....but handler failure involving situational awareness...as well as other failures on my behalf.

As a few have mentioned ....hindsight is 20/20...but valuable lessons can be learned .....and I most certainly have learned from this event. I will never assume a person won't advance toward my dog....regardless of my dog's obvious displayed intentions...as well as other lessons learned....

The gentleman who was bit came by last evening....we are both aviation enthusiasts...we sat and talked for some time and he brought some pictures by from his days in the USAF.....the dog remained inside. Overall.....the man is a true gentleman....and most certainly culpable ....regardless of his "boldness" and "optimism" during the event....I have nothing but respect for him.

Oh....with the advanced serious training you have been through....what is the protocol you have been taught when your dog is amped up by the helper...while you are restraining the dog from the bite....and then the helper advances with sleeve extended....what do you do...so the dog ignores the sleeve without getting that first bite in....once within biting distance?

SuperG


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I appreciate your reiteration of the obvious.....I exited the motor home door with the dog by the collar...intention was to leash the dog...acquire some open space for the dog's "comfort"...which my original post described ...." Put dog on 6 foot lead and my dog and the man met in a normal civil fashion....no aggression."
> 
> Maybe I failed to describe the situation properly......upon exiting the motor home door....the gentleman advanced...arm extended.....the dog had no maneuvering room.....as she literally had her back up against a wall...so...this was not a failure of the dog .....but handler failure involving situational awareness...as well as other failures on my behalf.
> 
> ...


He never *ignores* the sleeve, nor should he. My job is to be a tree, i.e. completely stationary so the helper is always certain of the distance between himself and the dog. *He* controls where the sleeve or tug is in relation to the dog. Keeping it just out of reach builds up the dog's drive to grab it and win it away from the helper.

Once the dog is trained, he knows there are only certain cues that tell him he gets to take the bite.

And no, your OP was not clear. I was under the impression that you were introducing your dog to the guy while holding her by the collar. My bad.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Mondio has some pretty cool exercises where the dog can only bite on cue. It's not the same as restraint and building drive for tug, but it's a nice control exercise and more realistic (than IPO anyway) when it comes to applicability to real life control.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> just gonna add A+ on the "Down" as opposed to "Sit." It's the little things that make a difference.


Because the "down" is a submissive position? I'm not sure how I remembered that in the moment, but that was why I put her in a down-stay immediately. Then if I corrected, it would have been for breaking her stay, not for anything else. A few pieces of cheese, and seeing that this was clearly an invited guest, and she was fine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Because the "down" is a submissive position? I'm not sure how I remembered that in the moment, but that was why I put her in a down-stay immediately. Then if I corrected, it would have been for breaking her stay, not for anything else. A few pieces of cheese, and seeing that this was clearly an invited guest, and she was fine.


Oh sorry my bad it was a statement not a question. I get it, "Struddell" (White Boxer) showed me how useful "Down" was. And for the longest while she would blow her flews in protest at hearing "Down!" For her it meant ... part time was over! I used "Down" to tone down (no pun intended) most of the crazy with her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A lot of reactive dogs react because they are unsure what to do, and without getting any leadership from their owner/handler, they react to the situation. 

A lot of times, if you can provide a command the dog is good at before the reaction happens, the reaction never happens, because the dog is getting communication/command from the owner, SIT! oh-yeah, I know SIT, no problem, my butt's on the ground, I's a good boy! It can relay to the dog that you are aware of the situation, and aware of him, and what you want him to do is to SIT. Good. Good owner!

Down is a much harder position, not so much that it is submissive but that it is vulnerable I think. If you practice DOWN here, there, and everywhere, with and without distractions, than using a DOWN might be the thing to use. For me, I prefer the SIT, because I have a much better chance of immediate success, which tells the unknown person that my dog is under control and trained. And, yes, a trained dog is often much more intimidating than a barking, lunging, bouncing, uncontrolled dog. The sitting dog appears to the stranger to be on guard. That may be what I want the stranger to see. 

Allowing someone into and RV with a dog on a SIT is another matter. I probably would take the dog out of the vehicle and let my friend in first and then bring the dog in. It would depend on the the dog.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Keep in mind that dogs don't see attacks the way humans do. Dogs often attack each other but once it's over and one dog backs down they can be best buds after that.

Third day I had my Pyr she attacked my GSD over some deer guts she stole and wasn't supposed to have. She launched at him twice and he put her on the floor both times, as she backed down he let her go, then she decided it wasn't worth it and it was over, zero issues since. They don't hold grudges over things like that, and I'm certain your dogs mentality is not different. All this means is you will need to be more cautious. 

Making a dog sit or lay down does not necessarily change the mentality, and the mentality is what makes them attack, not their current physical position. It always annoys me when I go to the vet and there's owners constantly yelling SIT SIT SIT LAY LAY LAY at their dogs, most of the time the dogs are too nervous to sit or lay down, and when they do you can still see they are visibly nervous or hyped. Then of course the dog stands again because they are most comfortable doing that, and the owners get pissed off. 

Just my take on it, I have not had a dog who has lunged uncontrollably at a person or dog so my experience with a situation like that is limited.


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