# Thoughts



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

"Three years is an old dog. If you have not [won big trials] by three years, then sell the dog and try again with a new puppy." 

Thoughts on this statement?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Agree if you're goal is to win big competitions. Disagree if there are other motives for owning the dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

to each his own....as long as the dog is happy!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> to each his own....as long as the dog is happy!


 
Care to expand upon that?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

don't agree with it. Even if you are intending to do big things with the dog like nationals.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Depends. Gabor did not start serious training on Enzo until 2 years. Traveled with dog, including to Europe and back, foundation, prior to 2.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Art you sound like the big gymnastics coaches when I was a gymnast. If you weren't on the nat'l team by the time you were 10 years old you were as good as dead (or worse, over 5'2" with boobs and hips!*gasp*).


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I was told by a PO to test a dog to see if it could even do it was to tie the dog with a very short leash to a table and to poke her with a pole till she got figting mad and went for ya. If they didn't he said the dog was worthless and to try again  :angry fire: we never asked for his advice again.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

ChristenHolden said:


> I was told by a PO to test a dog to see if it could even do it was to tie the dog with a very short leash to a table and to poke her with a pole till she got figting mad and went for ya. If they didn't he said the dog was worthless and to try again  :angry fire: we never asked for his advice again.


 The difference being that the person who I quoted is one of, if not the, best trainers in the world.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Yet you never gave credit to the quote.
I think the journey to the top is more important than being at the top. Why rush it? A 3 yr old dog is barely mature....I'd prefer to enjoy the ride than have it rush before my eyes. If the dog doesn't have "it" then yes, get another if the national podium is the goal. And if the dog does have it, I wouldn't blame the dog but the handler if I was rushing to the top.
My opinion is based on me never having that as my goal....


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

My thinking is...I'm in this because I love dogs, not because I love to win big trials. It's about having fun and bonding with my dogs, not working them like a machine. 

On the other hand - if the dog is a dud, I probably wouldn't keep it at this point in my life, however that can be seen with a little work.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Yet you never gave credit to the quote.


As much as I would like to, I just do not feel that it is right to use people's names on a public forum. I will say that, in my opinion, the person who said this is probably the greatest schutzhund trainer in the world today.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I think it depends on the dog, the end all purpose of the dog and the handler. One of our males (who is now 10yo) didn't make a sound during protection work until he was close to 2 years old! Now we weren't really worried about it as at this time my husband had pretty much quit competing due to a very bad neck injury. Anyway, we kept this dog since he was a good demo dog for the police guys we worked with at the time. He was reliable, was a good tracker and above all, totally bomb proof around other dogs. About the time he turned 2 he suddenly decided protection work was awesome . So we kept on working him, teaching him to run blinds, a hold and bark, etc but by this time we had given him to our then 9yo daughter. She learned to handle a dog with him. He is now 10yo, from really great bloodlines, will never get titled, but is every new helper's first bite. So luckily for us, we had the room to keep him and he has been one of our greatest ambassadors to the sport. When new people come out, especially those who are nervous about bitework, he is the dog we let their kids hang out with and do obedience with. They can't believe it is the same dog when we get him out for bitework. 
My husband's current dog is just now at the point of getting the BH. He didn't get the dog until he was over a year old, my husband just let him have fun for a through the winter and just really started working him last spring. If you're not in a rush and are participating out of joy of the work and the dog then who cares. All of our dogs that have been titled are really just well trained family dogs as far as we are concerned. We aren't breeders, so have no need to get titles fast. The dogs we have will most likely never be bred (the one male's breeder has asked for a breeding out of him once he's titled and health stuff done). 
My current female will be 15mos and a week old when we hold our spring trial. Even though she could be ready, I'm not even going to try. I want to take my time and enjoy the process. 
If you are into Schutzhund because you like to be on a podium, then you probably do need to be more competitive in your thinking. I look at it like tennis, some people want to go to Wimbledon, and some people want to play every week with their local team, and will probably play until they can't lift a racquet anymore. No one will ever know their name, but it doesn't mean they've enjoyed the sport any more or any less.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> As much as I would like to, I just do not feel that it is right to use people's names on a public forum. I will say that, in my opinion, the person who said this is probably the greatest schutzhund trainer in the world today.


 
:laugh::laugh: thats just funny you will use his/her quote but not put a name to it-this forum is just so silly


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't agree with it because this is a fun hobby for me, not a job. Some people its their livelihood. I'm assuming this person falls into the la tter category. With that said, I think it's silly to put a specific date on it.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

I think it depends upon the individual's goals in life. Top competitors know what they need in a dog to reach those goals. Those of us that are in it for the "journey" will bring out the best in the dog we are training. I respect both trainers and their opinions on this.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I think it simply boils down to the priority of the individual...is it the sport, or the dog? 

If the sport is the priority, then the dog is just the means to an end, and easier sold. If the dog is the priority, then the sport is simply a venue in which to train, and selling the dog would be unthinkable.


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## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

W.Oliver said:


> I think it simply boils down to the priority of the individual...is it the sport, or the dog?
> 
> If the sport is the priority, then the dog is just the means to an end, and easier sold. If the dog is the priority, then the sport is simply a venue in which to train, and selling the dog would be unthinkable.


 
That's what I was thinking...but I didn't have the right words.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Sounds like a few race horse trainers I know. The "BEST" trainers in the country. They tend to be butchers. They go through a ton of nice horses, because they are incapable of adjusting THEIR goals and training plans to fit the horse. There's always more 6 and 7 figure horses where they came from. 
What is a good trainer? One who gets the very most out of the very few animals they have. They take pleasure and pride in the process, not the trophies. (Of course trophies, or big races are nice).
Just saying...... There are a lot of definitions of "best".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Was it Fritz Biehler you're talking about...lol
Seriously, I agree with W.Oliver and Lyn, in it basically depends on the goals of the individual as to the merit of the quote. 
Little aside, when at Taunton, Mass. at the nationals one year, I asked a very famous world trainer/competitor, (hint,worked with Orry while he was in Belgium), what he thought was the main deficiency he saw in training for Sch in America. He smiled, and said that Americans put too much pressure on a dog at a young age. He said they wanted to get 290 scores in there sch1 when the dog is only 2 to 3 years old. Not enough foundation in the dog . He said that he is fine with a rock solid 265 for the one, because putting the polish on a dog that early has unintended consequences later on. Then may 280 for the two, and then he starts serious training with the dog when he is between 3 and 4. 
I know this isn't entirely onpoint, just thought it brought another top level perspective into picture.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I also remember another top level competitor expressing a different viewpoint on ages. His quote was "3 years coming, 3 years showing, 3 years going, 3 years then dead"

Meaning he expected the dog to be 3 before it was really ready for high level performance, best competition years after that until 6 or so, 3 years of possibly trialing but no longer being highly competitive, 3 years retirement then the dog is probably gone, etc...

And I have also heard many refer to too many people putting too much pressure on young dogs, expecting too much of them before they are mature, as Cliff mentioned.

So even amongst the top competititors there are differences in viewpoint.

As for my personal thoughts, like others I think it depends entirely upon the goals of the person. Whether a person views their dog as merely a means to an end with regard to competition, as a companion to enjoy working with, or as a bit of both is going to determine their outlook on the whole thing, the methods they employ and the timeframe they are shooting for.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Zahnburg said:


> As much as I would like to, I just do not feel that it is right to use people's names on a public forum. I will say that, in my opinion, the person who said this is probably the greatest schutzhund trainer in the world today.


well that can't be true, because i'm sure I never said that 

But since you brought it up, I'd say if you've had the dog from early on up to 3, then you probably know if the dog is going to make it or not. I wouldn't agree that they dog is at it's full potential yet, but you should know if you can get it there or not by then.

If you just got the dog and have only trained a year? I'd say I could probably spend a good 6 months just bonding and learning the dog, I can train a lot in 6 months, but I don't have the desire to get it all done that fast.

So, for myself, I wouldn't think it is right to just drop a dog at 3 because it hasn't won a nationals yet, unless of course I had an awesome club member lined up that wanted a new dog to compete with and I knew where it was going and what was happening. But my goals are more than just competing. One of my fav's now will never do anything other than a club trial, but she's a cool fricking dog and I like that.

But I think someone with the goals of winning and winning big, will know by age 3 if that dog has what it takes for them or not.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Some people do schutzhund because they love and have GSDS.....

Some people have GSDs because they want to compete in schutzhund....

(my own saying!)

So the bottom line is the trainer and goals like others have said. Personally - I don't have the resources to compete at a high level - money, time and home help to go ....heck I don't have the training resources either....450 miles round trip to train is EXPENSIVE! But no training is better than bad training!

Look at most of the top competitors in the US in the last 15 years - most bought made dogs to go to Nationals/Worlds....maybe dogs with an issue they saw that they could fix - but maybe a BSP winner too! Few people take a puppy/juvenile to National level, and even fewer take a puppy/juvenile to World level.

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I love the movie Secretrait -because she believed in the horse. I personally think its sad when someone just views a dog as a product and I don't respect that at all even if they are top competitors. For me one of the best things about having particpated in schutzhund is I have learned just because some is a top competitor doesn't mean that I have to agree with them


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I still work Aska... And she's 7. I'll probably still trial her. It's fun! 

I think I could have a real shot competing with Katya if I can continue improving my handling and training skill, and my wallet doesn't run dry too fast. That being said, I put equal effort in both my untitled dogs.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think when you blindly follow the advice of others, without looking at yourself or your own dog, you will fail. I can't tell you how much BAD advice I have heard from the supposed "greats" over the years. Some of them are so full of themselves, they think their way of doing things should apply to everyone. That is simply not possible but being "the best" gives these people the platform to ruin things for everyone else.  
The idea of everyone doing things the same way, especially for people who are suppose to understand dogs , should be the first clue that Mr Best is full of it.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

How come its always Mr Best...it would be nice if Mrs Best was ruining it sometimes


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> "Three years is an old dog. If you have not [won big trials] by three years, then sell the dog and try again with a new puppy."
> 
> Thoughts on this statement?


An amazing trainer/competitor told me once, "if your dog doesn't trial (by a certain age) then YOU aren't a good enough trainer."

I believe that some dogs are better suited for worlds, or nationals, etc.. but I think all dogs have the potential (if everything is lined up for it - bloodlines, foundation, etc.) to do great, yes, even at big trials as you put it.

I have a dog who will perform amazingly with a few select people, with me... nope... he looks like he just stepped onto the field (in obedience) for the first time. What does that say about the dog? That he is not a good dog? Or does it say that the handler needs some work (or MAJOR work!  ). 

I agree with the others who said,


> I think it simply boils down to the priority of the individual...is it the sport, or the dog?
> 
> If the sport is the priority, then the dog is just the means to an end, and easier sold. If the dog is the priority, then the sport is simply a venue in which to train, and selling the dog would be unthinkable.


Although I would LOVE to go nationals (or even worlds!) one day with a dog I own and trained myself - I would never just sell or give one of my current dogs away. I guess I am not that serious about the sport. I am doing schH to spend time with my dogs and to learn how to train and read dogs.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

holland said:


> How come its always Mr Best...it would be nice if Mrs Best was ruining it sometimes


Because The Mrs.'s and Ms.'s are always right.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Vandal said:


> I think when you blindly follow the advice of others, without looking at yourself or your own dog, you will fail. I can't tell you how much BAD advice I have heard from the supposed "greats" over the years. Some of them are so full of themselves, they think their way of doing things should apply to everyone. That is simply not possible but being "the best" gives these people the platform to ruin things for everyone else.
> The idea of everyone doing things the same way, especially for people who are suppose to understand dogs , should be the first clue that Mr Best is full of it.


He was simply describing his personal views and goals with a dog, not suggesting that everyone should do this. 
I can see how this could be confusing as I plucked a single statement out of an entire conversation.

Also, I am not suggesting that this is the 'proper' or 'only' way to view training; rather, I think it is an interesting viewpoint, though not one that I completely subscribe to.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I used to think this was a crazy idea, buying a puppy, raising it for 2-3 years and then getting rid of it. But now I understand it much better that I have put myself in the shoes of a person that works a dog (I'm not that person, but I understand where they are coming from).

I look at it like this, you want to do SAR/PP/Shutzhund, this is your life. Your dog is a big part of this. It is not up to standards, but you can't afford the time/money to have a pet dog and still get it all the things it needs. Why not get the dog to a home where it will be loved and appreciated for what it is, and not force it to do something it doesn't want to do? A GSD is a 10-12 year commitment, thats 15% of our lifespan, and even greater if you take into consideration our lifespan during the time we are able to work a dog. So why waste that time on a dog that isn't going to turn out? Also these people have such a network of dog lovers that they usually find their dog a great home where they are able to visit whenever they want.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Perhaps he realizes if the dog is not achieving at least something by that age, he won't be...... and the dog is not what HE wants to compete with. I guess I don't understand your point in asking for "thoughts" if it is just this man's way of doing things. I think when you believe in something very strongly, you make that your reality. Might be his way but I would not agree it is the only way.

One thing I know is this. Whether you go to a big trial depends on a few things. First, you simply must have a the dog for it. Second and maybe just as important, YOU must have the drive to want to go there and be willing to invest the time , money etc to get there. A good dose of toughness and resilience in the handler helps as well. 
I have gone to the WUSV, I have helped more than a few others go. All of them had those two things. Didn't hurt to have a good helper also but no one was saying "oh time is up, my dog is this old, I have to quit and start over now".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Was it Fritz Biehler you're talking about...lol


I had to do a double take, My grandma's name was Fritz Bieghler! She was into dacshhunds


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

holland said:


> I love the movie Secretrait -because she believed in the horse. I personally think its sad when someone just views a dog as a product and I don't respect that at all even if they are top competitors. For me one of the best things about having particpated in schutzhund is I have learned just because some is a top competitor doesn't mean that I have to agree with them


Totally off topic - but do you know the book was totally different than the movie? She really didn't believe in Secretariat that much. Actually seemed to resent him for being better than Riva Ridge. Disappointing, huh?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes...very glad I didn't read the book


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

My dog and his littermate were the YOUNGEST dogs at the National Championships this year...they are 3 years old...there was 4 dogs that were 3 years old in the competition...Mine was not completely ready and made dumb young dog mistakes but had a lot of fun....ALL the rest were 4-8 years old.....The prime years for competition is 4 - 7 years old....The original statement is completely wrong...IMHO

Frank


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> I think it simply boils down to the priority of the individual...is it the sport, or the dog?


I was thinking about this thread as I was knocking around with my dogs and I'd like to add to my comment with respect to breeders/kennels.

For me, Schutzhund is about my dog, the tradition of GSDs, and training to do as well as we can together. So giving up my dog is unthinkable....and accepting shortcomings is probable, more likely mine rather than the dog's. LOL

Having said that, I think there is quite a bit of difference between a sport competitor rehoming a dog vs. a breeder/kennel. I can imagine circumstances where both may sell off a dog performing under expectation, but clearly the motives behind that can be significantly different.

I admire the top competitors, but their methods and approach are simply different than my personal choices. I am happy being dazzlingly average.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

schh3fh2 said:


> My dog and his littermate were the YOUNGEST dogs at the National Championships this year...they are 3 years old...there was 4 dogs that were 3 years old in the competition...Mine was not completely ready and made dumb young dog mistakes but had a lot of fun....ALL the rest were 4-8 years old.....The prime years for competition is 4 - 7 years old....The original statement is completely wrong...IMHO
> 
> Frank


Indeed they were the youngest at the USA Nationals. However, looking through WUSV results from the last 20 years one can find a number of dogs who were 3 years old, some who were two, when they showed. 
In your opinion, is there a difference in the way we (in general) approach training here in the US as oppossed to some in Europe? 
Why is it that we expect a dog to be 4-7 to show at the Nationals, yet other folks expect a three year old to be at the Worlds?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This mentality is no different than racing horses. If you want to compete at a high level, you have to look at the dog as in "return on investment". (how fast are you seeing the results you require for the time and money you are investing). For me the dog is a pet and a friend first as are my horses. Therefore i do not care about how quick they succeed. If I was a top level competitor with time, money and ego at stake, I might have a different outlook on the age of the dog.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

robk said:


> If I was a top level competitor with time, money and ego at stake, I might have a different outlook on the age of the dog.


why do you have to throw in a dig like that? why do you feel someone's ego must be at stake? Myself, I just love to show my dog and the National events are the most fun because they are the biggest and you see people from all over the country that have the same passion I have. It is something I train for all year and then myself and my wife use the big events as vacations....I love my dog and training with him, we try to do the best we can, win lose or draw, ego has nothing to do with it......

Can't someone just enjoy showing their dog.....

To Zahnburg:

I don't know why Europe does it much faster, could be the vast availability of training, I really don't know....But in WUSV entries there are some countries that are just trying to send a full team...I remember in 2008 there was a dog that Qualified with a 213 score....But the thing I can say for my own experience, my dogs now mature much later then they did 15 years ago...seemed to me that my dogs 15 years ago thought they were bad asses at 2 years old and my dogs now is 3 and still has that puppy look in his eyes most of the time...


Frank


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Well I've been told that in Europe there are 10s of clubs to pick from instead of the case here where there is usually only one club in feasible distance


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Yes some countries are just trying to send a team so we can discount them, but still, quite a few dogs doing well by three. 
And this was really where I wanted this thread to go, not so much with people getting hung up on selling the dog. Why is it that some trainers can accomplish so much in a short time? Yes it could be training availablity, but there are plenty of folks here who train just as often. I think that the issue is really one of what the handler expects of the dog.
As for dogs maturing slower, I don't know that this is a trend overall, perhaps you are looking for different things in a dog than you were 15 years ago?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Whatever the reason for them progressing faster, probably the same reason they are better at soccer and rugby


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

schh3fh2 said:


> why do you have to throw in a dig like that? why do you feel someone's ego must be at stake? Myself, I just love to show my dog and the National events are the most fun because they are the biggest and you see people from all over the country that have the same passion I have. It is something I train for all year and then myself and my wife use the big events as vacations....I love my dog and training with him, we try to do the best we can, win lose or draw, ego has nothing to do with it......
> 
> Can't someone just enjoy showing their dog.....
> 
> Why does this statment bother you? Ego is a driving force behind the competitive nature of man(kind). Too me, ego is not a bad thing. It drives us to try to be the best. That is why we compete! I don't know you but apparently you have trained dogs to SChIII and compete at the national level. That is an awesome acomplishment! I hope to be able to meet people like you and maybe even do that myself someday. I know I have a lot to learn about the sport and a lot of hard work ahead of me before I can (hope to) get there. However, if I didn't have a strong desire to be the best that I can be and be willing to risk my ego with the prospects fo failure, I could never even try!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The dogs "matured" faster years ago than they do today. However, I do not think it is simply maturity as most view it. The dogs are different in that they have less social aggression and fight drive. Recently, I started working a young male and I have been impressed by how precocious he is. Reminds me of those old dogs in how ready he was to do protection at a very young age and the power he brought to it from the get go. If you have dogs like that and the right training environment, you can move really fast with the training. 

As for other countries, IMO, they are smaller than ours and training choices are more plentiful as a result. There is also a higher training skill level in Europe than here.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Politics maybe? Schutzhund was born in Germany and that is where it is still centered to this day? But I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that everyone in Germany knows what Schutzhund is, no matter if they are a dog owner or not. They have very few, if any, pups that aren't born of Schutzhund lines and because of that Schutzhund is a much bigger business there. You NEED to have your dog titled in order to breed and make money to support that hobby, in the United States, the top level competitors aren't worried about breeding or making money off of the sport.

I'll also guess that it is a lot more affordable to train in Europe due to proximity and availability, so more people are able to do it, and you have more dogs that are making it to the higher levels at younger ages.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

martemchik said:


> .....But I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that everyone in Germany knows what Schutzhund is, no matter if they are a dog owner or not.


Its funny you say that because it would be the natural assumption I would make as well...but...I have had German Au Pairs for the past seven years, and during the time thus far, I have hosted over thirty Germans in my home. The Au Pairs themselves, friends and family that come to visit. The most recent were a group of three college age guys from Frankfurt here to visit their friend who is staying in the states and they were please to experience a traditional American Thanksgiving.

In addition, I worked for a German company for several years, Continental AG, and of all the German nationals I worked with...I would always ask if they were familiar with SchH.

Point is this...from my small sampling, not a single German I ever canvassed was familiar with Schutzhund. Sure they knew what the word meant, which is better than the typical American who doesn't speak German, but I have yet to meet a German who wasn't a SchH trainer, that even knows what SchH is.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One of my good friends grew up in Germany and he doesn't like GSD's....he was attacked by one when he was 7 and never liked the breed after that. I was hoping to hear great stories from him, not that one.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wayne I've had the same experience with exchange students. I never bring it up but my family will bring up GSDs/Schutzhund and they obviously understand what is meant but still look at me like I'm insane. Also the professors I often go to for help translating Koer reports have never been familiar with Schutzhund other than knowing those words. Most of them have lived in Germany if not are German themselves and I have to first explain what the heck I'm talking about.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Depends on the dog's drives, the handler's skills, and the teamwork between them, among many other factors.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

would it be a fair statement to say the drives and qualities of the dog should become evident by the age of 3, and at that point you could have a good picture of it's potential? 

I have a Czech import that was rocking the sleeve at 1 year but when incorporating obedience into protection still had his lower jaw quivering at 2 just because he saw jute. Some dogs mature quicker than others, and I think at 2 1/2, he's just approaching the point where he's able to think when the sleeve is in the picture. 

Part of this is due to travel/training schedule dictating (protection) training once, maybe twice a week at best. Also handler's skills are a factor since he's the first (of 4) I've considered to be a serious, civil dog.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I don't buy it. So you guys want people to belive that Americans (in general) don't expect a dog to be ready for top competition until they are at least 4 years old because:

a) We don't have enough training over here
b) We don't have good trainers

Just not buying it. As an example to refute 'a': I know someone who is European and moved to a country where schutzhund was practically non-existant. He trained his own helpers and had his dog finish in the top half of the WUSV at three years old. This in a country that had no history of successful dog-sport and most certainly was not teeming with top trainers. 

As far as 'b', I think you would have a difficult time convincing folks that we do not have some excellent trainers residing in this country. It simply is not true. 

And before people start talking about "professional trainers" and time to train, many if not most of the top competitors in Europe have full time jobs that are not related to dogs. Actually, I would wager that far more competitors in the US "do dogs" full time. 

I truly believe that it is a cultural thing. Many here simply do not expect as much from their dog as what the dog is capable of. I hear all the time people saying "I am waiting to do this or that because the dog is too young" Meanwhile the dog is 2 years old and ready to go. 

Just a thought, I could be wrong.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> And before people start talking about "professional trainers" and time to train, many if not most of the top competitors in Europe have full time jobs that are not related to dogs. Actually, I would wager that far more competitors in the US "do dogs" full time.


Very true. Most have full time jobs and train their own dogs. Gabor did not understand the focus on HOT or BHOT in the US - to him, that is normal.Still is.

Training for the club in Budapest is almost 1 hour cross the city from the house. 2 times per week. But, sport to the group. Good, experienced helpers.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

I would have to agree with you Art...I was just offering some things as "possiblitities" that i have seen...But now that I think about it more, for myself...the first year or so with my young dog I do almost nothing because I am training a lot/competeing with my current competition dog, then when he gets to be about 18 months (and the current dog is just maintaining) I start to train a lot with tyhe younger one...so in my case, it is probably more a routine "I" have gotten into....If I only had one dog at a time, then maybe I would be there a year earlier 


Frank


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Art I think it depends on what you mean by "too young"? I always get a puppy at 7 weeks old but if I wanted to be competitive I'd skip all that and get a dog that was 8-12 months and just get started right there. I think there's a lot you *can* do with a baby puppy but not stuff that's really crucial in the end; a good trainer can obtain a 12 month old dog, train it for 6 months and be just as far along in training and titling as someone who got a 7 week old dog. Normally though by 8 months I like to start with real formal obedience. As far as the bitework, I don't always buy that waiting waiting waiting is better, but I think you do need a decent helper that knows what buttons to push. I'm an impatient person when it comes to training and getting started so the last time I went to a breeder who isn't into the waiting game but will start dogs right away and has been fairly successful. Right now I am waiting to start retrieves because I need to find someone who knows how to train one the way I want to train it and can help me out. I've only ever trained it one way and don't like that way for this dog.

Maybe a) and b) factor in for many people but not necessarily the top level trainers and competitors. I think people who are at the top level of anything are people that know how to set a goal and achieve it and they're going to do it even if they have to work two full time jobs and drive 5 hours for helperwork.

One thing I see in our culture - not just dog training but all over - is that people can be a little helpless at times, always wanting someone else to get them started or tell them how to do this or that (like I am doing with the retrieve, lol) and a lot of times we need to just be more motivated to go out and DO it without all the excuses an "what ifs".


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> a good trainer can obtain a 12 month old dog, train it for 6 months and be just as far along in training and titling as someone who got a 7 week old dog.


This is common wisdom, and Frank touched on this as well. Many folks, myself largely included, do not begin "serious" obedience work until a dog is older. The thinking being that there is only so much that can be done with a young dog before pushing them too far. But is this really true? Just today I was watching video of a 10 month old GSD with a near perfect obedience routine and flawless retrieves.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I ask myself the same thing a lot. I think again, it depends on the dog and the training style and how those two things interact. Nikon is no top level dog but he has always been more serious than Pan, both in taking training seriously and having the ability to take a lot of pressure from me starting at a fairly early age. Pan has more drive overall and is already shaping up to be a better scoring dog but can't take the same pressure from me and channel it the same way, at least not yet. I suppose with a dog that can be trained the routines early on, my inclination would be to consider when I want that dog to "peak". Why waste time training a dog to do a SchH1 routine by 10 months and then have to sit on it until the dog is old enough to compete?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> Just not buying it. As an example to refute 'a': I know someone who is European and moved to a country where schutzhund was practically non-existant. He trained his own helpers and had his dog finish in the top half of the WUSV at three years old. This in a country that had no history of successful dog-sport and most certainly was not teeming with top trainers.


But don't forget that he travels to Europe to train with top trainers at least every three months. His dogs are not finished by the helpers he trained. And also he counted with economical resources not the average trainer count. Not saying he is not a great trainer and helper, because he is.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Catu said:


> But don't forget that he travels to Europe to train with top trainers at least every three months. His dogs are not finished by the helpers he trained. And also he counted with economical resources not the average trainer count. Not saying he is not a great trainer and helper, because he is.


That is true too, but it kind of takes away from the point I was making.  For the record, this particular trainer is not who I origanally quoted.

But, the point is still the same. If one has enough access to training here (in the US) to be showing at the nationals at 4 years old, why not at 2 or 3 years old?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

What is your point-oh and if I am being rude-you do schutzhund you should be able to handle it...you know thick skin and all that stuff


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

General comment:

With sport or police, I think there are tendencies many times to rush the dog along. Just because a dog "can" do something, doesn't necessarily mean they "should", based either on physical limitations or maturity level. I think it's far more important to work foundational skills with most dogs until they are mature enough, and this ensures a more consistent baseline for future success. Every dog is a sum total of genetics, imprinting, training, and environmental exposure. Sometimes it's tough to not want to rush your dog along when you see progress, I always try to resist the temptation, regardless of how well the dog is progressing. Slow, sure, tractable steady accelleration often wins the race.

I've seen young dogs that were advanced for their age, and slow maturing dogs that are "puppy like" until they are several years old...it's all so individual that it's tough to rubber stamp age milestones too rigidly.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> Look at most of the top competitors in the US in the last 15 years - most bought made dogs to go to Nationals/Worlds....maybe dogs with an issue they saw that they could fix - but maybe a BSP winner too! Few people take a puppy/juvenile to National level, and even fewer take a puppy/juvenile to World level.
> 
> Lee


So very true!:thumbup:


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't see the point either. The original statement works for some trainers and do not for other based in the objectives, priorities and style of each one. I don't think it is true or false, nor good or bad. I say potato, you say potato.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Catu said:


> I don't see the point either. The original statement works for some trainers and do not for other based in the objectives, priorities and style of each one. I don't think it is true or false, nor good or bad. I say potato, you say potato.


 I was not really trying to make a point. I just found it very interesting the difference in time frames that people look at.

As Frank pointed out earlier, his dog, at three, was the youngest at the Nationals and he felt he still was not completely ready. As opposed to the person who I quoted fully expecting a dog at 2 years to be ready for top competition. 

I am not saying that either is right or wrong I am just saying that it is interesting.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think a lot comes down to money. STUD FEES. I don't really see "big time" studs here in the US the way you do in Europe. At least none that I've noticed. I feel like the amount of money a dog starts churning out in Europe once he has a big title is much more than here. Not something I've studied per say, just thinking about various dogs that are very popular...most start churning those puppies out after doing well in a big competition. That's probably a gross generalization, however. And probably only one piece of the pie.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Interestingly, the stud fees for the "top" show line dogs are typically not very high, some are even free. The more they produce, the better shot at VA. Granted the dog itself usually carries and insane price tag and even an affordable stud fee adds up when the dog is maxing out the breedings allowed by the SV. Often nice studs never place very high simply because of their location - not as accessible to the masses, don't get as much exposure, much fewer breedings...people assume it's a lesser dog. VA1 Xbox spent years in Kentucky with Charlie Star rather than in Canada with the owner. During that time he got tons of breedings and was very accessible for many show line breeders, produced a lot of nice progeny, made VA multiple times...

Not sure if the same is true for working lines...


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I think a lot comes down to money. STUD FEES. I don't really see "big time" studs here in the US the way you do in Europe. At least none that I've noticed. I feel like the amount of money a dog starts churning out in Europe once he has a big title is much more than here. Not something I've studied per say, just thinking about various dogs that are very popular...most start churning those puppies out after doing well in a big competition. That's probably a gross generalization, however. And probably only one piece of the pie.


 Elsa, although I agree with the start of your statement that it comes down to money, I do NOT agree with the staement it is about Stud Fees....Most good working line stud fees in this country are about $800- $1000 and then the puppies are $1500-$1800 EACH...The problem is there is not a lot of breeders TRYING to breed top competition dogs in this country. They try to breed good medium dogs that will make good pets and do the work (now I'm not saying this is for all breeders) But over seas they ARE trying to breed top sport dogs. It's more about where the target is set for the "breeder" then the good studs not being around.....

As I said before my dog AND his littermate brother were the youngest in the Nationals this year, Both are bred in this country to a stud in this country...I know for a fact that there is a 3rd littermate that will also be there next year and at least 2 more half brothers from same stud that will also be there. So to say there are no "big time" studs in this country is false, there are a lot of really good studs in this country, they just don't get 40-50 breeding per year in this country, they are lucky to get 20 over their life time.....


Frank


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

schh3fh2 said:


> they just don't get 40-50 breeding per year in this country, *they are lucky to get 20 over their life time*.....


And while disagreeing with me, you are agreeing with everything I said 

I'm not sure where you put the words in my mouth that there are not good stud dogs here?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I think a lot comes down to money. STUD FEES. I don't really see "big time" studs here in the US the way you do in Europe. At least none that I've noticed.


hey Elsa...

Sorry ...I took the above statement you made to be that you don't think there are big studs here in the US....and that the stud fees are too expensive......If that is not what you ment then I don't follow the above statement....Did you mean that they are not being used enough?


maybe I misunderstood and we do agree...


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

I recently won the USRC National Schutzhund Championship, very small trial...lol. My dog was 41 months old, youngest 3 and second youngest dog. Pretty young from a Rottie point of view. My decision to enter was thought on long and hard for the sole reason he really is not that mature yet. Although I won I probably should have waited another year and gotten a few more trials under him. Luckily he didn't completely lose his mind.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I meant just that. Studs in europe get used excessively once they have some big titles and competitions on them. Lots of $ to be had on stud fees. So of course they want their dogs doing well at high levels early to start making $. You agreed with my point by saying dogs in us might get 20 breedings in a lifetime whereas in europe that can be a slow year.

do not mistake me saying "big time"with quality. Just pointing out more $ is to be had with "big time" (as in used a ton) if they start winning early.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If it is money driven for those handlers it is because winning big trials and the WUSV can often mean seminars. The more wins, the more at the top and the quicker a trainer can get there, the more followers they will have. So, in many ways, yes, it is about money, ego. I also think for many of these people it is pretty much all about the competition and not so much about the dogs.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> ....You agreed with my point by saying dogs in us might get 20 breedings in a lifetime whereas in europe that can be a slow year.


I think if the dogs understood that, they themselves would work harder to win national and world championships!!!!:laugh:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> If it is money driven for those handlers it is because winning big trials and the WUSV can often mean seminars. The more wins, the more at the top and the quicker a trainer can get there, the more followers they will have. So, in many ways, yes, it is about money, ego. I also think for many of these people it is pretty much all about the competition and not so much about the dogs.



No kidding, with the amount I see some people spend on attending seminars I think I'd sooner just buy a brand new dog!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally posted by *GSDElsa*
> ....You agreed with my point by saying dogs in us might get 20 breedings in a lifetime whereas in europe that can be a slow year.





W.Oliver said:


> I think if the dogs understood that, they themselves would work harder to win national and world championships!!!!:laugh:


Ah, yes!!! Thats the way to motivate....I doubt the females would want to ever win however


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Ah, yes!!! Thats the way to motivate....I doubt the females would want to ever win however


Maybe that's the REAL reason you hardly ever see females at top levels! No thanks, boys...step away from the hiney! If I win, it will be in too high of demand! :rofl:


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Ah, yes!!! Thats the way to motivate....I doubt the females would want to ever win however


Of course not, the bitches have headaches.


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## khudak (Nov 2, 2011)

I _personally_ disagree...although Ive never competed at a big trial so my opinion doesn't mean much  But for me, the prime time for competing would be 4-6 years old. For me it takes a good 2-3 years to train a dog to SchH3... maybe if I didn't train so many dogs It wouldn't take as long, but such is life and I do. I definitely would not write a dog off for competition if they hadn't placed at a big trial at 3 years of age. If I didnt think they had potential at 3 years old, that's different. I will prob compete next year with a 6 year old dog and 4 year old dog! With the 6yo... she is obviously not going to have a long competition career, but as long as shes healthy she could compete for a good 2 years. 

That said, there ARE dogs that young competing and doing well...so it can be done for sure.. but I personally just wouldn't write a dog off at 3 if they hadn't already won. 

So it wasn't Fritz???? Then WHO is the greatest SchH Trainer today!!??


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