# Place command



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I watched a video from a trainer talking about the place command, how it’s being taught, and how it’s being used. He had a unique take on it. I had a conversation with a friend about how a lot of modern pet trainers I’ve seen and met use the place command as a basis for their program. I personally don’t really have or use a place command. I have others that I use in different situations that accomplish similar goals I guess. What are your takes on the place command? How do you use it? How do you teach it? Is there ever any adversives involved in the teaching or use of it?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Personally, I have taught my dog to go wherever I point. Place, is a simplistic form of this,that teaches a dog what you mean easily; a bed or a pad or some type of target.

Honestly, it's maybe helpful while training, but honestly, at least for me, it's all about communication. I want my dog to go wherever I point. We've worked on that, and now she does it flawlessly so there's that.

Just be clear in what you're expecting. Most dogs can learn that IF you're presenting correctly and consistently.

JMHO...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

One of the first trainers I saw using the place command as a foundation was Tyler Muto. He starts dogs off with leash pressure work and uses a Kuranda as a tool in that process, pressure and release onto the bed and then pressure release for staying there with freedom as a reward. It is then used to start OB and to build duration.

Larry Krohn uses half a crate to do some of the same things. It's a fun exercise and builds confidence. He uses e-collar to teach it with Kurandas and does send aways to them. 

I use it more as a fun thing in training to teach duration. I also teach a jump up command which means anything I am pointing at, even at distance. I use a Kuranda to start that command.

I don't use a place command in the popular manner, as in go to your place. I use down instead.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I use Place like Tim and I love it. I free shape it first, then get duration and then help him generalize, all positive. I use it all the time, at home, in new places, dog classes. It can be a mat, towel, a tree stump, kuranda, hoopla hoop  etc. At home it’s accent rugs throughout the house, in the yard it’s his raised bed. I station him there while doing something and need him out of the way. It’s to simplify my everyday life. 

ETA: For me Place is to go to a designated space and wait for the next command. It can be stay, wait, or something else. I use it a lot for working on impulse control too. Like Place, wait, run away with the ball, get it, throw the ball, and we both run to the Place, and variations. I can play with my dog all day long inventing different games lol wish I had more time for that. 

I use Up! for asking to jump up on elevated surfaces. Super useful too.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Just remembered another use for the Place command in our house - sending the wet dog with muddy paws to a towel upon returning from a walk in the rain. He stays on the towel so I can wipe his paws and dry towel dry him, and the house stays clean  

Probably not useful for competition, you guys have well trained to a higher level of obedience dogs but it’s one of the most used daily commands for my pet.


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## turntableslave (Oct 8, 2021)

We've started work on Place the last few weeks to prevent Margot's excessive barking at the window. It's working well so far. Agree that we probably need to eventually transition to a more nuanced version as @David Winners says rather than being dependent on an actual "place" but we're seeing success with the barking and jumping at the window.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

You all have very good answers. The video that made me want to talk about this is from Larry Krohn. I asked about adversives because of one of his complaints in the video. Not that using adversives is wrong l, but the overarching theme of his video was that place was being used by a lot of people to shut down their dogs. It was also being limited to single places or items like a dogs raised platform for instance instead of being a generalized command that can be used anywhere at anytime. He said that one of the most common uses was sending the dog to a place whenever someone was at the door or company was over. I think that is an awesome use of the command. He said that’s fine for a pet owner, but he would expect a better solution for a trainer with their dog. He said he doesn’t believe a good trainer should have to resort to sending their dog away in these situations. I can kinda see his point as far as that specific use, though I wouldn’t disparage anyone for using it that way. The other thing with adversives , he talked about dogs leaving the place mat and getting hammered. Then they were left on the place for hours at a time. I would link the video, but it’s a platform I don’t really use and I’m not familiar with how to do it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

As for my use, like I said I don’t use a “place command.” I have generalized commands I use for different situations. I can send them to a kennel, inside the house, outside the house, in and out of the car, and to jump up on or down from various places. I don’t think the formalized pace command is very space efficient, which is one of the reasons I don’t use it. The other is I’ve never felt a need for it. I use basic obedience like sit and down when I answer the door and want the dogs to not immediately go out and harass the person.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I use "Place" whenever I want them to stay in a down to where I point. To be fair to them it is always on a defined spot, like a door or bathroom rug. Crate is "Crate!" Any other general area, like a floor or field I use "Down Stay".


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

The Place command for my dog is a happy happy command. I never use it when a company is over. I don’t require a sit or down either, he can stand and watch. 

Our needs are very different that’s why we train our dogs differently so they can fit into our lives. When I’m cooking, for example, and my dog starts pestering me I just say Place and simply look at the rug outside of the kitchen. He runs there immediately. I can add Stay but I don’t, he will usually hang out there on his own for hopes for an occasional veggie or a cookie, or just wander off which is ok. Considering he was a horrific counter surfer and counter jumper it’s just so easy now


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Jupiter learned place as going to a mat and has generalized it to going where I point. I often have him under my seat to keep him out of the way, for example at a restaurant patio.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I teach a place command, but I teach it as "a place" instead of "the place". I use a Ray Allen raised bed initially to help scaffold the learning and then transfer that behavior to anything. Andy knows that a pointed hand means go in that direction until I say "Yes". That is his marker for the right choice. Since he is used to me dragging that raised bed all over creation, he knows there are many places he can be sent to and some of those places he might have to climb or jump up to. He knows when to stop when he hears "Yes" and I build duration with "Good" and random food rewards with some of the "Good" words. I fade the use of the bed.
Sheilah


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don’t understand why there is any controversy over a Place command. Maybe I’m not getting the why? I taught Place on a box, then transferred it to a bed or to a spot anywhere. Down is a Stay command. Place is an “I need you to lie down somewhere out of my way for a while, calm down if you are amped or otherwise chill.” It’s a relaxed command in that the dog eventually can get up and move. Using Place as a Stay or a long down is cruel. I want Place to be the dog’s choice, not a punishment. It worked in my yard one day when he was trying to chase squirrels and I was trying to do yardwork and didn’t want to watch or tether him. He stopped immediately and lay down. He had a frisbee so he nibbled on that for a while and I did my work. Eventually he decided it was time to round up other frisbees and he went and did that, then we went inside. But he didn't chase any more squirrels that day.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> I don’t understand why there is any controversy over a Place command. Maybe I’m not getting the why? I taught Place on a box, then transferred it to a bed or to a spot anywhere. Down is a Stay command. Place is an “I need you to lie down somewhere out of my way for a while, calm down if you are amped or otherwise chill.” It’s a relaxed command in that the dog eventually can get up and move. Using Place as a Stay or a long down is cruel. I want Place to be the dog’s choice, not a punishment. It worked in my yard one day when he was trying to chase squirrels and I was trying to do yardwork and didn’t want to watch or tether him. He stopped immediately and lay down. He had a frisbee so he nibbled on that for a while and I did my work. Eventually he decided it was time to round up other frisbees and he went and did that, then we went inside. But he didn't chase any more squirrels that day.


Larry’s two chief complaints from my cliff notes version is trainers needing to expand their tool boxes beyond the place command especially when it’s just used to send a dog to bed, and that it shouldn’t be used to shut dogs down. In the dog world, just about everything is controversial somewhere.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> The other thing with adversives , he talked about dogs leaving the place mat and getting hammered. Then they were left on the place for hours at a time. I would link the video, but it’s a platform I don’t really use and I’m not familiar with how to do it.


Sadly, I'm sure there are people out there abusing their dogs and misusing training methods and tools, but personally I don't really see a need to use aversives for any training, or proofing for that matter. 

Sure, judicious use of aversives may speed the process up a bit, but it doesn't end in any better results. No dog is or ever will be 100%!

I mean, unless you're going to have a dog wear an e-collar 24/7, and I'm just not!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Larry’s two chief complaints from my cliff notes version is trainers needing to expand their tool boxes beyond the place command especially when it’s just used to send a dog to bed, and that it shouldn’t be used to shut dogs down. In the dog world, just about everything is controversial somewhere.


Does it shut the dog down or release a little of the built up steam? When mine are amped and I interfere, they might calm down a notch but they never shut down. Maybe a soft dog can’t handle a disruption but a drivey dogs goes with the flow.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Does it shut the dog down or release a little of the built up steam? When mine are amped and I interfere, they might calm down a notch but they never shut down. Maybe a soft dog can’t handle a disruption but a drivey dogs goes with the flow.


What does the phrase double down mean to you?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> What does the phrase double down mean to you?


Maybe do something twice or twice as strong? Maybe when I’m in an argument with someone and I insist I’m right? I’m not sure what you mean.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Maybe do something twice or twice as strong? Maybe when I’m in an argument with someone and I insist I’m right? I’m not sure what you mean.


Not to get too far into the weeds, but it’s a command taught by some trainers, and used by them in conjunction with place command. There is a difference between a dog settling and being shutdown in my opinion.


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## Ringhram (Sep 4, 2021)

We use "place" when we are in the kitchen cooking. Thena has learned that when she is told to "place," she is to go into a small laundry room adjacent to the kitchen from which she can watch everything the humans are doing. The purpose is to keep us from tripping and either spilling scalding food all over her or breaking our necks. She can move about the laundry room freely, and she knows that when food prep is done, she is free to leave. This works really well with our "velcro dog," as she remains close to us but is not underfoot. (Disclaimer: we are not in any way professional trainers, and we have modified the command to suit our purposes. I am pretty sure that this is not the standard use of the command but it sure works for us! )


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Ringhram said:


> We use "place" when we are in the kitchen cooking. Thena has learned that when she is told to "place," she is to go into a small laundry room adjacent to the kitchen from which she can watch everything the humans are doing. The purpose is to keep us from tripping and either spilling scalding food all over her or breaking our necks. She can move about the laundry room freely, and she knows that when food prep is done, she is free to leave. This works really well with our "velcro dog," as she remains close to us but is not underfoot. (Disclaimer: we are not in any way professional trainers, and we have modified the command to suit our purposes. I am pretty sure that this is not the standard use of the command but it sure works for us! )


Different from what you typically see. The important thing is you have a system that fits you, your dog, and your household. There’s nothing wrong with it.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bearshandler said:


> Not to get too far into the weeds, but it’s a command taught by some trainers, and used by them in conjunction with place command. There is a difference between a dog settling and being shutdown in my opinion.


Wow! BH, you gotta explain this a bit more! To me shutting a dog down means overwhelming it to the point of surrender, or "shutting down". I'm baffled how that comes into play at all when teaching a place command?!?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think expecting a dog to hold a double down for any length of time is cruel. I think forcing a dog to double down for any length of time using punishment is definitely cruel. 

A trainer that needs to resort to this kind of micromanagement of behavior to get a dog to relax just doesn't understand dogs. It takes no skill to drive the will from a dog. Eventually, any dog will give up. I would rather see that dog buy in.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ringhram said:


> We use "place" when we are in the kitchen cooking. Thena has learned that when she is told to "place," she is to go into a small laundry room adjacent to the kitchen from which she can watch everything the humans are doing. The purpose is to keep us from tripping and either spilling scalding food all over her or breaking our necks. She can move about the laundry room freely, and she knows that when food prep is done, she is free to leave. This works really well with our "velcro dog," as she remains close to us but is not underfoot. (Disclaimer: we are not in any way professional trainers, and we have modified the command to suit our purposes. I am pretty sure that this is not the standard use of the command but it sure works for us! )



I did this with my lab on a mat in the corner of the kitchen to keep him away from food prep areas. I never did any correction or pressure, just reward on the spot.

I found once I did foot target work with the overturned bucket, dogs became magnetized to raised objects and it wasn't hard to transfer that to a dog cot.

So my dogs have all had reward based place training on mats, cots and other platforms (klimb, or also foam platforms that I made). The only pressure I've ever used is spatial pressure from me to remind them to stay on there if they have not been released.

Ways I find it useful in daily life:
-when traveling, when we arrive in a new place and I throw down a mat or a cot they have trained with they are immediately comfortable because they have their "spot"
-my father is allergic to dogs and he used to visit with a friend who was very old and frail. So basically the dogs had to not touch these two people, and not sit on the furniture when they were here. So I put out their "spots" in the living room and sent them to them. Now, I've never trained to stay on a place for a duration of hour or more. When we had that company the dogs would get up and go drink, or go out, or whatever. But if they tried to approach the couch I would just send them to their spot instead and they would settle for awhile.

So it was loose and informal but it worked.

I always have a mat for my service dog that I throw down wherever we are waiting so he knows where to go and sit. Sometimes he would be on a very cold floor in the winter otherwise.

I used to carry a piece of an insulated sleeping mat for camping for my old service dog. She was tough, but we would be sitting on a concrete train platform in the dead of winter waiting for a train so I would have her sit on that instead.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> I think expecting a dog to hold a double down for any length of time is cruel. I think forcing a dog to double down for any length of time using punishment is definitely cruel.
> 
> A trainer that needs to resort to this kind of micromanagement of behavior to get a dog to relax just doesn't understand dogs. It takes no skill to drive the will from a dog. Eventually, any dog will give up. I would rather see that dog buy in.


What's a "double down"?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Another way I used it that I just remembered-- we went to a lake cottage with my husband's niece and her small kids at one point. The kids were kinda running around being kids and I wasn't sure my one dog would know how to act. I didn't want him following the kids into other rooms and interacting with them alone. (this is when he was young, I totally trust him now)

So I put him next to me on his cot. The other side of that was that the kids were not allowed to bother him or pet him on his cot. When they were calm and in the room with me I would release him and he could go hang out with them if he wanted. But he also understood pretty quickly that if he needed a break he could come back to his cot by me and they wouldn't bother him.

So place can kinda go both ways-- it can be a safe place for dogs too.


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Reading through this thread, I FINALLY realized I too use the 'place' command, but it's "Go lay down". The 'new' wording for age old commands can be confusing


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow puts me in my place regularly.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What's a "double down"?


Is when the dog must also lay their head down.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I think expecting a dog to hold a double down for any length of time is cruel. I think forcing a dog to double down for any length of time using punishment is definitely cruel.


This is not something I would EVER force a dog to do. It is subjugation, it's insulting and it's just wrong. Any trainer doing this needs to find a new line of work.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Apex1 said:


> Is when the dog must also lay their head down.


Oh! I’ve never even heard of that before or the term. I couldn’t force my dogs to put their heads down unless I held them there. It would never occur to me. They need to be able to look around and see things. If they are tired, they put their heads down. My older dog even dozes with her head up. She likes to be ready for action.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow puts me in my place regularly.


I wonder if she's related to our cat...he rules the roost, really. Forget the dogs, the real alpha is Timothy (though Agis gets a little exuberant with him sometimes, play bowing, bringing Timothy his toys, jumping towards him (never on him)).

But an aside.

When I started teaching Agis 'place' I was always using different beds, blankets, etc. Eventually I gave up with that and would just point and say 'place'. I got sick of dragging beds and blankets around, and cluttering up our living room.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

For the record...I do agree that there are a lot of pet trainers that shut dogs down.

And here is one of the reasons why, I think: I have a young lab who boards with me. Nice dog, but he is a lot of dog. He would probably make someone an excellent hunting partner or working partner. But his parents are two retired folks, one quite frail and not in good physical shape at all and completely unable to physically wrangle this rowdy wild lab puppy. They had been using a reward only trainer who started them on a head halter and they discovered that the halter "shut him down" a little just by him wearing it.

One time they dropped him they told me that to deal with his problem manners in the house, they would just put the halter on and leave it on him for the whole morning loose in the house to “calm him down”. I hope the trainer didn't tell them to do that, but I don't know.

My approach would be to just get him out and work him in the morning and get his jollies out so he is ready to be a solid citizen. Not put something on his face to make him not be who he is. Point being there definitely are pet people who just want their exuberant, poorly matched dog to just lay down and do nothing for house. MY dogs lay down and do nothing for hours, but it is because they've been for a hike and they train regularly and so there isn't this daily excess of frenetic energy.

The other thing I've noticed is that it seems to be this badge of honor for pet dog trainers to have a really tough breed in a muzzle, e collar and prong, on a place bed. And maybe because this dog is really dangerous it's getting this full suppression treatment.

somehow I think it became trendy to “rehab” dangerous dogs that the clicker trainers wanted to put down. And some of those dogs don’t belong in the pet population if you ask me…


Apex1 said:


> Is when the dog must also lay their head down.


Oh. Except that I have seen ppl use that in competition obedience, I didn’t know that was even a thing in the pet dog world. Crazy.

ive Seen dogs trained to do that for the novice down stay or at the DOR but those are short… a few seconds to a few mins. (Novice stays are only 1 minute now)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A friend is a puppy raiser and those dogs are in Haltis all the time when they are out, often all day.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

LuvShepherds said:


> A friend is a puppy raiser and those dogs are in Haltis all the time when they are out, often all day.


i think we’ve spoken before and this is for a guide dog school right? if so, this is done for different reasons. and typically the equipment is introduced to them at a very early age using positive reinforcement with the goal of desensitizing them (like a flat collar that some dogs wear all day) but also establishing it as a part of their “uniform” along with their puppy coats….. the uniform is intended not only for identification and access, but to create a specific state of mind which is linked to a certain set of behaviors. this later translates into the harness or whatever equipment they wear in formal training. i’ve used a gentle leader to calm a dogs state of mind in training….if it’s evident that it’s been misused or the dog is shutting down, i remove it and try something else… change in environment, etc


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I like the place command and taught only Max as it as it was fitting. It’s useful for many things mainly i really use it when cooking , dinner etc. as he can be an opportunist when no one is looking. There is no kind of release word - the only thing would be to repeat the spot/ place command if that is where I want him still be for some reason. If a delivery person is at the door then i use a specific room that is not in direct line with the front door. I use place /spot a bit differently if someone is at a the door delivery etc. there is a release word - for only this instance as it is a few second interaction. I use place mainly as a direction to go over to a specific spot and chill out if food is being served begging etc. I practiced with him by luring him over to a particular place on a leash (I did it with the area rugs in our house versus a bed or a specific mat or towel. The area rugs were much more convenient as they are through the house and I’m not one specific area) with a command place /spot along with pointing and many treats continually for awhile as I stayed in that area as well and feeding treats intermittently until a relaxed state is showed. Then gradually less treats until it becomes ingrained and may have occasional reward or often not.


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