# Puppy with untested parents



## dbevacqua (2 mo ago)

Hi everyone

Not-quite-GSD owner here. We're currently looking at a young female pup. She is from two quite young parents (about two years old - not sure exactly just yet). It sounds like this litter are a bit of an accident, though the owners did plan to breed eventually. They are not experienced breeders. The owners say that



> Mum is kc registered and Dad is pedigree championship bloodline.


The owners are lovely and clearly care about the puppies' welfare. Their adult dogs were not particularly well-behaved but nothing too worrying. The puppy in question has a lovely temperament.
The slight alarm bell for me is that the parents have not had the "usual" tests - no hip or elbow scores and - as far as I can gather - no genetic tests e.g. DM. The owners do say this:



> [the puppy's parents are] from parents with absolutely fine hip and elbow score that go back many generations. The health score all clear. Our vet also has no concerns with either mum and Dad elbow or hips.


I'm trying to dig into what "going back many generations" means - does the KC record this kind of score? If the lineage is good - say all clear on hip & elbow + DM - is that good enough?

What do you think? Is this an acceptable risk or should I walk away?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I grew up with a dog from an OOPS litter. They can be great dogs. You just have to go with your eyes open.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The KC records what is reported to them by the owner. It's just a registry. You can ask to see the pedigrees and see for yourself what testing was completed under each dog's name.The temperment and energy level will still be a crap shoot even if you're satisfied with the health stats.The sire and dam weren't carefully chosen to compliment each others strengths and weaknesses. It's up to your best judgement


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

"Dad is pedigree championship bloodline" - what does that even mean?? 
If the dog was free - sure, but I wouldn't pay someone for a puppy from two dogs that have nothing between them. I'm sure the puppy has a lovely temperament but IMO that is really nothing, all puppies are cute.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you do get a pup from this litter, get health insurance on him/her ASAP before "existing conditions" pop up.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

It sounds to me like the sire is not registered.


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## dbevacqua (2 mo ago)

Galathiel said:


> It sounds to me like the sire is not registered.


yep, that's correct. his parents aren't either


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's all a hard pass for me. Can I ask what they are charging for unregistered puppies whose parents have no health testing other than a family vet saying they are nice dogs?

Dogs with good orthos throw dogs with bad orthos. It happens. Resting on the previous generation is not acceptable.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

If the sire's parents aren't registered then it makes me think that either they couldn't register one of them, or one of them had a limited registration, meaning that no pups from them could be registered.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dbevacqua said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> Not-quite-GSD owner here. We're currently looking at a young female pup. She is from two quite young parents (about two years old - not sure exactly just yet). It sounds like this litter are a bit of an accident, though the owners did plan to breed eventually. They are not experienced breeders. The owners say that
> 
> ...


Walk away. IMO, the only reason crappy breeders exist is because people support them. Support them, and you become part of the problem too.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Galathiel said:


> If the sire's parents aren't registered then it makes me think that either they couldn't register one of them, or one of them had a limited registration, meaning that no pups from them could be registered.



does the UK have limited registration? Not that it matters. Unregistered is unregistered. Just curious.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Definition of a (careless) backyard breeder. I'vehad them when I was youger and they can be perfectly fine dog. But if they're not, you accepted the odds being stacked against you. Unless price is your primary consideration, I'd pass.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

A pedigree champion can still have a lousy temperament. A breeder I know told me about a very famous ASL grand champion that was always kept crated and well away from other dogs when at dog shows, because he had such bad issues with dog and people aggression. A championship also tells you nothing about trainability, just that a judge thought he was a pretty dog that gaited nicely in the show ring.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

You might be fine with a pup, but it’s sloppy breeding none the less. Personally, I wouldn’t settle on a breeder, no matter how nice and friendly they were. The breeder you’re talking to actually sounds a bit salesperson like, which is a big red flag for me. Expertise, experience, and planning create better dogs than nice personalities and soothing assurances.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

As you are in the UK, if you want to PM me the registered name of the bitch I can check the KC register to see if hips/elbows are scored going back generations if you like? The KC record the scores via the BVA so it isn't owner reported as stated incorrectly above.
What are you getting a GSD pup for? Do you have plans for him/her - work, show, pet etc. I would always want hips and elbows of the parents and several generations behind them as a minimum and would want a registered puppy for those reasons too. Personally I would walk away. There are many good GSD breeders in the UK.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> [the puppy's parents are] from parents with absolutely fine hip and elbow score that go back many generations. The health score all clear. Our vet also has no concerns with either mum and Dad elbow or hips.


This is all basically meaningless. What are "absolutely fine hip and elbow scores"? There is no such thing as fine hips and elbows, these "many generations" were either x-rayed or not, and if they were there would be records to prove it.

What is an "all clear" health score? Which dogs in the lineage were tested, and what were they cleared of? Why does your vet have no concerns with the parents' hips or elbows - is that opinion based on anything definitive?

An oops litter on its own isn't necessarily a red flag, but inexperienced breeders and quite young parents, vague generalities about health testing and hip and elbow scores with no proof? It's a nope.


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## dbevacqua (2 mo ago)

Thanks everyone for your replies - really useful. We walked away and are now going through KC and only considering breeders who are properly testing the parents. I hope I'll be back to the forum soon with a small GSD!


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> does the UK have limited registration? Not that it matters. Unregistered is unregistered. Just curious.


We have two types of registration.
One for pedigree dogs with known ancestry that are registered with the KC or recognised overseas KC. To this the breeder can add one or two endorsements to the registration, that being, progeny not eligible for registration and not eligible for export.

The other is a working trials registration for pedigree and non pedigree dogs where parents are unknown or not registered with the breed registration, this allows the dog to compete in working trials under KC rules.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

I do not condone supporting irresponsible breeders but the puppies are here and the deed is already done. If nobody picks them up simply because they did not come from a famous breeder they will end up in who knows what place and that is not fair. Many (including me) have owned puppies from OOPs litters and I would venture to say that most have turned out to be very nice dogs. 
I think we all agree that going with a reputable breeder increases chances of getting what you want but increased chances is not 100%.
I would not pay top money for the puppy but if the puppy has excellent temperament like the OP and I liked why not give the little guy a chance at a nice home.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

most breeders dont regularly check for DM but they should have hips/elbows done if they breed to sell for big bucks so yeah sounds like an oops litter or bad looking for cash owners-you shouldn't breed dogs that young and real breeders know you dont make money off breeding the first few years.


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