# Working Prospect question



## workingk9_Ohio

Hi there, I am new to the forum and have been offered an amazing opportunity to obtain a GSD. I will start by saying I have never owned a GSD before, however I have owned working, titled, imported Rottweilers so I *am* familiar and comfortable with strong working dogs. I am coming here because although I am familiar with titles, I am not familiar with any lines in the GSD world and would love some honest feedback regarding this bitch I may get. Basic info: She is 21 months old, she's had about 6 months obedience/schutzhund training. She is not titled in any way, basically because she is still quite young. Her owner is rehoming her because he doesn't have time (he's got 9 dogs and is downsizing to 3. He has 2 successful businesses and will be starring in a new reality show on A&E and filming is due to start soon). She is eager to please, prefers women, easily corrected, and good with other dogs. I would be getting her for competition obedience, personal protection, and would probably at least aim for a BH, and perhaps go further depending on us both (I have 3 kids at home, ages 8-17, as well as 4 other dogs so time is at a premium at the moment, but will be easing up in the next couple years as kids move out and we lose our corso who doesn't have a lot of time left due to crippling hip dysplasia). Additionally, I will most likely train her to be my service dog. I work part time from home so even though I do have several dogs, they spend most of each day with us. 2 of the dogs are 4 pound chihuahuas so not really dogs at all ;-) 

Anyway, here are links to the bitch's sire and dam. If you know of any good, bad, or indifferent information on the dogs on either side, I would be really grateful. My biggest concerns are: temperament, health & trainability. I need a dog that is athletic, healthy, and that has an OFF switch and can be calm in the house. She will be a house pet first and foremost. I can deal with a dog who may not be *superb* on the field as long as she can be calm and manageable at home. 

Thanks in advance for any advice, comments you can provide. I realize that there is no dog bashing allowed, so if you have some negative info to share, please PM the info to me so as not to break forum rules. 

Dam:
V Chitty Leryka

Sire:
V Terror von der Staatsmacht

Carey


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## simba405

Pedigree is basically irrelevant at this point. You have an almost mature dog in front of you. You should be able to see all those traits in the dog with your own eyes. Much more valuable than a pedigree in terms of assessing. Pedigree is nothing more than a baseline. You have the real deal in front of you.


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## Packen

Have you watched her train? pretty important as people typically do not turn around and sell a 21 month old dog with promising future. It does happen but also could be due to a temperament/health issue that got unveiled by training or a mis-match to handler experience level but in any case you need to know (you have kids and other animals). Best to have someone experienced evaluate in person to see if good match for your household (not just online pedigree reading) before buying. Contacting the breeders would be a first step.


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## workingk9_Ohio

simba405 said:


> Pedigree is basically irrelevant at this point. You have an almost mature dog in front of you. You should be able to see all those traits in the dog with your own eyes. Much more valuable than a pedigree in terms of assessing. Pedigree is nothing more than a baseline. You have the real deal in front of you.



Actually, the dog is out of state and I do not have the luxury of seeing her in person. But thanks.


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## workingk9_Ohio

Packen said:


> Have you watched her train? pretty important as people typically do not turn around and sell a 21 month old dog with promising future. It does happen but also could be due to a temperament/health issue that got unveiled by training or a mis-match to handler experience level but in any case you need to know (you have kids and other animals). Best to have someone experienced evaluate in person to see if good match for your household (not just online pedigree reading) before buying. Contacting the breeders would be a first step.


The owner is a good friend---- not sure how to put this....he has a lot of money and purchased several top notch dogs in a few different breeds simply because he could and he likes to look at them. He doesn't do any training or trialing at all. He just likes to have really nice dogs. He's got a second home and second business in Florida where he has decided to reside the majority of the time and he knows it's simply unfair to keep dogs in a kennel (albeit a gorgeous, $50,000 kennel) when they could be living to their full potential with someone else. He's keeping his 2 trained K-9's for his business and one other dog as a pet but rehoming the rest, as he's realized he has overextended himself. He wouldn't pawn off a dog with an issue on me. He's simply offering me an amazing opportunity. I don't live near him and cannot see her train or even see her in person prior to getting her, which is why I was coming here. ----

I was really hoping to get feedback about the dogs in her pedigree-- are they sane? are they good workers? because he doesn't know anything about GSD pedigrees, either. All he knows is he paid a lot of money for her and she's supposed to have a great pedigree (which I certainly think she does). I know some GSD can be crazy and hard to own and since I've never owned one before, I can't look at the pedigree and say, "Oh, so-and-so is there so that's a good indicator that she may not have an off switch", etc. 

Thanks anyway.


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## martemchik

How does this guy have “trained K9s” I thought a trained K9 could only be owned by a “trained police officer.”

Any predictions based on the pedigree would’ve already come out. If the guy tells you the dog is fine, the dog is probably fine at this point. If he’s a good friend, trust him. Sounds like you don’t, so you’re going for other people’s opinions. But if he’s that good of a friend, shouldn’t really have a reason to lie to you about the dog. More than likely, if your goals are to get a BH, the dog can do it. If you really want a real PP dog…you’d need a solid evaluation done by a person that knows what they’re talking about.

To me, price would matter at this point. A 21 month old, barely trained, sounds like a kennel dog. Not sure how much I’d be willing to pay for that when I can guarantee myself a very solid puppy for $1200 or so that wouldn’t come with any baggage that might’ve been put on it from a prior owner/trainer.

I really wouldn’t care how much a person paid for the dog in the first place. Many times, people will get charged what the breeder knows a person can afford…especially when importing. An equal quality dog from Europe will cost more because those breeders tend to understand that if you’re even considering importing…you probably have more than enough money to pay a higher premium for a dog you can easily get in the states.

Puppies generally get sold on potential and their pedigree because that could lead to breeding and revenue later on. An older dog, should basically be sold based on its accomplishments without any thought given to what was originally paid for the dog. From what I see in the pedigree, it’s a good pedigree, but the dog in front of you, isn’t anything special IMO and depending on the price, you might be able to get something way better that fits what you want, or he might be giving you a great deal.


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## workingk9_Ohio

Thank you. I absolutely trust him-- he just hasn't been around the dog much due to his business and he knows zilch about pedigrees, he'd tell you that himself. He is in the law enforcement business. He's not charging me a dime for the dog. 




martemchik said:


> How does this guy have “trained K9s” I thought a trained K9 could only be owned by a “trained police officer.”
> 
> Any predictions based on the pedigree would’ve already come out. If the guy tells you the dog is fine, the dog is probably fine at this point. If he’s a good friend, trust him. Sounds like you don’t, so you’re going for other people’s opinions. But if he’s that good of a friend, shouldn’t really have a reason to lie to you about the dog. More than likely, if your goals are to get a BH, the dog can do it. If you really want a real PP dog…you’d need a solid evaluation done by a person that knows what they’re talking about.
> 
> To me, price would matter at this point. A 21 month old, barely trained, sounds like a kennel dog. Not sure how much I’d be willing to pay for that when I can guarantee myself a very solid puppy for $1200 or so that wouldn’t come with any baggage that might’ve been put on it from a prior owner/trainer.
> 
> I really wouldn’t care how much a person paid for the dog in the first place. Many times, people will get charged what the breeder knows a person can afford…especially when importing. An equal quality dog from Europe will cost more because those breeders tend to understand that if you’re even considering importing…you probably have more than enough money to pay a higher premium for a dog you can easily get in the states.
> 
> Puppies generally get sold on potential and their pedigree because that could lead to breeding and revenue later on. An older dog, should basically be sold based on its accomplishments without any thought given to what was originally paid for the dog. From what I see in the pedigree, it’s a good pedigree, but the dog in front of you, isn’t anything special IMO and depending on the price, you might be able to get something way better that fits what you want, or he might be giving you a great deal.


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## martemchik

workingk9_Ohio said:


> Thank you. I absolutely trust him-- he just hasn't been around the dog much due to his business and he knows zilch about pedigrees, he'd tell you that himself. He is in the law enforcement business. He's not charging me a dime for the dog.


Lol if that's the case, I really wouldn't think twice about it.


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## workingk9_Ohio

martemchik said:


> Lol if that's the case, I really wouldn't think twice about it.


We've decided to get her  I just didn't want to get a crazy dog lol

Carey


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## eddie1976E

The price is right....put some $ into training...and you are all set.


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## martemchik

workingk9_Ohio said:


> We've decided to get her  I just didn't want to get a crazy dog lol
> 
> Carey


If you're used to rotts...sorry, you've just gotten yourself a "crazy dog."


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## cliffson1

Send me a pm, I may can give you some insights based on pedigree and knowing these lines.


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## Stefan Schaub

workingk9_Ohio said:


> We've decided to get her  I just didn't want to get a crazy dog lol
> 
> Carey


maybe you call or send a email to the breeder and or the owner of the parents.that is for sure the easiest way to get close info how the parents are and siblings. 

easy solution!!!! but some people like more the difficult way.:help:


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## holland

...that usually is they way I pick...is there another??


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## Blitzkrieg1

Stefan Schaub said:


> maybe you call or send a email to the breeder and or the owner of the parents.that is for sure the easiest way to get close info how the parents are and siblings.
> 
> easy solution!!!! but some people like more the difficult way.:help:


Lol I was about to say contact Staatmacht they can help you..but the dog is free you cant beat that.. Unless its a nervebag..


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## workingk9_Ohio

Stefan Schaub said:


> maybe you call or send a email to the breeder and or the owner of the parents.that is for sure the easiest way to get close info how the parents are and siblings.
> 
> easy solution!!!! but some people like more the difficult way.:help:


When I get her papers tomorrow and find that info, I will do so. I don't have that information yet.

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

Stefan Schaub said:


> maybe you call or send a email to the breeder and or the owner of the parents.that is for sure the easiest way to get close info how the parents are and siblings.
> 
> easy solution!!!! but some people like more the difficult way.:help:


As a side note, being made to feel stupid when just reaching out for help doesn't really make me feel all warm and fuzzy about people in the breed..... But I guess that's just me.

I've stated I have limited info on her, and that I am brand new to the breed. I was simply hoping for a little guidance. No need for ridicule. 

Carey


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## simba405

I don't see any ridiculing. People are just stating the obvious. Go see the dog for yourself. 

Hard to tell if the dog has an off switch through a pedigree. Hard to tell if the dog likes kids through a pedigree.


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## workingk9_Ohio

simba405 said:


> I don't see any ridiculing. People are just stating the obvious. Go see the dog for yourself.
> 
> Hard to tell if the dog has an off switch through a pedigree. Hard to tell if the dog likes kids through a pedigree.


I'll have her in about 12 hours so I guess I'll find out then. Thanks.

Carey


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## Tratkins

workingk9_Ohio said:


> I'll have her in about 12 hours so I guess I'll find out then. Thanks.
> 
> Carey


Best of luck with your new girl!! Post pics


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## workingk9_Ohio

Tratkins said:


> Best of luck with your new girl!! Post pics


Will do, thanks! I'm really excited.

Carey


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## jmdjack

simba405 said:


> I don't see any ridiculing. People are just stating the obvious. Go see the dog for yourself.
> 
> Hard to tell if the dog has an off switch through a pedigree. Hard to tell if the dog likes kids through a pedigree.


Agree. As Stefan Schaub is the owner of Staatsmacht and Terror's breeder, I would have viewed his comment as an invitation to contact him for information. By the way, looking at the progeny list of Chitty on Pedigree Database, it appears that the breeder of the dog you are inquiring about is Vom Rubin kennels VomRubinKennels. Good luck with the dog!


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## robk

I like the pedigree. Baring health issues, I think you will have a nice dog. Good Luck!


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## roblew

I have a full brother of Carey's dog and he is excellent on and off the field.


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## workingk9_Ohio

robk said:


> I like the pedigree. Baring health issues, I think you will have a nice dog. Good Luck!


Thanks!

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

jmdjack said:


> Agree. As Stefan Schaub is the owner of Staatsmacht and Terror's breeder, I would have viewed his comment as an invitation to contact him for information. By the way, looking at the progeny list of Chitty on Pedigree Database, it appears that the breeder of the dog you are inquiring about is Vom Rubin kennels VomRubinKennels. Good luck with the dog!


Thanks for the info  Had he identified himself as such, I would agree.... but since he simply posted:

"maybe you call or send a email to the breeder and or the owner of the parents.that is for sure the easiest way to get close info how the parents are and siblings. 

easy solution!!!! but some people like more the difficult way."

without indicating that HE owned the stud dog, it did appear to be ridiculing me, indicating that I like to do things "the more difficult way", which couldn't be further from the truth. Now that I've been made aware that he owns the sire, I have PM'ed him but so far haven't heard back. 

I appreciate the info on the breeder, I will contact her, as well. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

roblew said:


> I have a full brother of Carey's dog and he is excellent on and off the field.


And he is a gorgeous boy!!

Carey


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## ksotto333

Welcome from NW Ohio...(can't help with the pedigree)


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## robk

workingk9_Ohio said:


> Thanks for the info  Had he identified himself as such, I would agree.... but since he simply posted:
> 
> "maybe you call or send a email to the breeder and or the owner of the parents.that is for sure the easiest way to get close info how the parents are and siblings.
> 
> easy solution!!!! but some people like more the difficult way."
> 
> without indicating that HE owned the stud dog, it did appear to be ridiculing me, indicating that I like to do things "the more difficult way", which couldn't be further from the truth. Now that I've been made aware that he owns the sire, I have PM'ed him but so far haven't heard back.
> 
> I appreciate the info on the breeder, I will contact her, as well.
> 
> Carey


 You can visit his website here staatsmacht
You might have some luck by contacting him directly.


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## workingk9_Ohio

ksotto333 said:


> Welcome from NW Ohio...(can't help with the pedigree)


Thanks so much!

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

robk said:


> You can visit his website here staatsmacht
> You might have some luck by contacting him directly.


Thanks for the link! BTW-- your dog is gorgeous. Sables are my favorite!

Carey


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## robk

workingk9_Ohio said:


> Thanks for the link! BTW-- your dog is gorgeous. Sables are my favorite!
> 
> Carey


Thanks!


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## Matt Vandart

Has it been 12 hours yet?


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## workingk9_Ohio

Matt Vandart said:


> Has it been 12 hours yet?



She should be here any minute-- my husband picked her up at 6am and I'm just waiting!!

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

She's here....and she is AMAZING!!! She needs a bath and blow out, but as far as temperament...WOW. I am super impressed in just the few minutes I've spent with her so far. I'm feeding her and letting her explore the yard and acclimate a bit before I do anything with her. But she did an immediate sit and down for me an let me take her food away from her. She's VERY gentle when taking treats, and is just very polite, in general. I'll post more and pics later. Can't wait to get started training with this gorgeous girl. Oh, and she's MUCH bigger, more substantial than I thought she would be. 

Carey


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## Castlemaid

Congrats! We want pics!


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## workingk9_Ohio

*pictures and video!*

Ok, I hope I do this right. Here is a link to a short video of her. Please excuse my ignorance in handling a GSD. lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZdkXwAIxzs&feature=share

and I will attempt to attach some pics. I am VERY pleased with her. She is just exceptional. The only very minor issues I have are 1) her left ear folds most of the time (though it can stand up, also-- I plan to moleskin it for a few months), and 2) she is deathly afraid of my basement stairs. Unfortunately, crates are in the basement. Dogs are fed in crates. At this time, she is sleeping in a crate until she's a bit more acclimated, then she will sleep on a dog bed in my room.....until then, she really just freaks out any time she has to go up or down the stairs and she attempts (and usually succeeds) in leaping ALL the way up or ALL the way down (about 7-8 steps), instead of taking them step-by-step. I'd love any advise. I've tried treats-- she is too freaked to even notice them. I've tried sweet talk and dog food and toys. NOTHING. I know it will take a little time, but just wanted to know if any one else has dealt with the issue and may have some pointers. She is MUCH too large for me to carry up and down the stairs. 
There are a couple pics of her and one of her with my long haired Chihuahua and my Ibizan Hound

Carey


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## simba405

Ah so the dog was given away because of nerve issues. You'll find the longer you've owned the dog that there might be more things she is afraid of. 

For the stairs I'd just take it slow. If she isn't taking treats that means she's way too stressed. Do some obedience commands with her near the stairs. Get her mind off it. If she has ball drive (I'm sure she does) then play with her near the stairs. Eventually she'll realize the stairs aren't a big deal. Or she might be really nervy and never get used to stairs.


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## lhczth

Don't make a big to-do about the steps. Most basements look like a black hole to a dog. Just go up and down them in a matter of fact way, even if she leaps, and she will get used to them fairly quickly.


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## workingk9_Ohio

simba405 said:


> Ah so the dog was given away because of nerve issues. You'll find the longer you've owned the dog that there might be more things she is afraid of.
> 
> For the stairs I'd just take it slow. If she isn't taking treats that means she's way too stressed. Do some obedience commands with her near the stairs. Get her mind off it. If she has ball drive (I'm sure she does) then play with her near the stairs. Eventually she'll realize the stairs aren't a big deal. Or she might be really nervy and never get used to stairs.


She was NOT given away due to "nerve issues" and I resent you making that asinine assumption because of one thing I said. What about the fact that she has settled right into this house in less than 24 hours with 4 other dogs, she's done everything I've asked of her (heel, sit, stay, down, wait), lets me take her food, toys, etc, laid in the grass for an hour while I pulled her undercoat out, doesn't spook at ANYTHING-- loud noises, flapping umbrellas, trampolines, mad chihuahuas screaming at her, etc. 

I also have the opportunity to get his Tibetan Mastiff and Staffordshire Bull Terrier....BECAUSE HE IS MOVING AND WILL NO LONGER BE LIVING WHERE HE HAS A KENNEL AND IS ONLY KEEPING HIS BUSINESS WORKING DOGS (2) and ONE HOUSE DOG. For your information, the Perrysburg Police Department wanted her....but my friend had already told me I could have her so he kept his word to me. If you want to come and do a thorough evaluation in person AND THEN declare her "nervy", by all means, I would respect that....but to jump to that assumption about a dog who has lived in a kennel her whole life and is afraid of my basement stairs is ridiculous. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

lhczth said:


> Don't make a big to-do about the steps. Most basements look like a black hole to a dog. Just go up and down them in a matter of fact way, even if she leaps, and she will get used to them fairly quickly.


Thank you! I did just take her down for the evening and though she lagged and then forged, she did make contact with a couple stairs on the way down and wasn't as panicked about it as this morning. She's only been up and down them 4 times, each time seems to get incrementally better. They are open stairs, and ALL Of my dogs have been skeeved by them in the beginning (none of them "nervy", one is a VERY solid cane corso who got his CGC before 6 months of age and was in advanced obedience training when he was diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia at 8 months and had to be retired, and is exceptionally grounded and sane, the other is a very sweet, gentle Ibizan Hound who is used as a therapy dog.....ironically, the 2 tiny chihuahuas seemed to take to them quicker than the big dogs). I appreciate your feedback and agree.....I think within a week or 2 she will be taking them like a champ.

Carey


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## MustLoveGSDs

simba405 said:


> Ah so the dog was given away because of nerve issues. You'll find the longer you've owned the dog that there might be more things she is afraid of.
> 
> For the stairs I'd just take it slow. If she isn't taking treats that means she's way too stressed. Do some obedience commands with her near the stairs. Get her mind off it. If she has ball drive (I'm sure she does) then play with her near the stairs. Eventually she'll realize the stairs aren't a big deal. Or she might be really nervy and never get used to stairs.


First, pedigrees don't matter and now a brand new puppy in a brand new house with brand new people/furniture/routine who has probably never seen stairs is a bag of nerves? Come on now...

I mean Cary, it's like this person didn't even watch the video you shared of you handling, gaiting the dog, towering over her and getting in her face. Yeah the pup totally looked scared ****less.


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## Sabis mom

Shadow decided one day that steps were scary, I basically scooted down them one step at a time on my butt coaxing her with me. When that only stopped her completely freaking out, I carried her down and we worked on up first. I agree that basements look scary, so maybe working on going up first would be helpful. Also is the steps are open at the back try covering the holes with cardboard, some dogs really don't like that open look.

She's cute by the way. I like the ear.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Pups also go through fear periods..doesn't mean they are a bag of nerves. I have a 3 month old puppy started in IPO with strong nerves and character...took her out to a war memorial the other week and of all the things, the little usa flags and fake flowers tripped her out, but she'll hang on to a tug with the helper cracking a whip right next to her and not flinch. Pedigree is the first thing to be looked at IMO when obtaining a dog. It will tell you about health, longevity, potential, and so much more.


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## ksotto333

Unfortunately on this and probably any forum, there always seems to be someone that has to be negative. You've seemed to have answered your detractor quite well. Congratulations on your new family member. Our Tess has a sometime soft ear,so I'm a little partial to the look. Good luck with the moleskin.


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## Liesje

She's beautiful. I love your hound too. You look like a natural handler. If that ear stands you should try UKC conformation.


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## simba405

Sorry to offend. In your post you said she was deathly afraid of the stairs. IMO that is absolutely nerves. Cautious of something is fine. Especially something the dog has never seen. Deathly afraid and doesn't wanna go near is another issue. I'm just going off your description of the dog.


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## workingk9_Ohio

MustLoveGSDs said:


> First, pedigrees don't matter and now a brand new puppy in a brand new house with brand new people/furniture/routine who has probably never seen stairs is a bag of nerves? Come on now...
> 
> I mean Cary, it's like this person didn't even watch the video you shared of you handling, gaiting the dog, towering over her and getting in her face. Yeah the pup totally looked scared ****less.


:hug: Thank you! And in that video, that was her first time *ever* being stacked or gaited-- you can see at the end when I get a bit of liver out, she wants to sit when I was showing it to her. Goofball 

She will let me inspect her teeth, clean her ears, hold all of her feet, roll her to her side, be completely in her face, over her, etc, she has zero dominance issues. At the same time, she is starting to bond with me already and stays close to me-- but not in an "I'm scared, I need comfort" manner, rather in a "hey, I like you, I'm gonna chill and watch TV with you" way. She doesn't seem stressed, doesn't pant or pace excessively....in fact, a stranger would never know she hadn't been in this home/pack since puppyhood. She really is just so chill about it all. 
Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow decided one day that steps were scary, I basically scooted down them one step at a time on my butt coaxing her with me. When that only stopped her completely freaking out, I carried her down and we worked on up first. I agree that basements look scary, so maybe working on going up first would be helpful. Also is the steps are open at the back try covering the holes with cardboard, some dogs really don't like that open look.
> 
> She's cute by the way. I like the ear.


Thank you ;-) It does give a bit of character, doesn't it? 

I agree, going up the stairs always seems less of an issue than going down for some reason. I'll really try and make it happy and fun in the morning. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Pups also go through fear periods..doesn't mean they are a bag of nerves. I have a 3 month old puppy started in IPO with strong nerves and character...took her out to a war memorial the other week and of all the things, the little usa flags and fake flowers tripped her out, but she'll hang on to a tug with the helper cracking a whip right next to her and not flinch. Pedigree is the first thing to be looked at IMO when obtaining a dog. It will tell you about health, longevity, potential, and so much more.


I'm really looking forward to learning more about her ancestors-- health and longevity are really important to me...most especially since my beloved corso taught me a hard, hard lesson. He's just turned 3 in April and I doubt he will make it to 4, his hips are just awful. Bless his heart. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

ksotto333 said:


> Unfortunately on this and probably any forum, there always seems to be someone that has to be negative. You've seemed to have answered your detractor quite well. Congratulations on your new family member. Our Tess has a sometime soft ear,so I'm a little partial to the look. Good luck with the moleskin.


Thanks! I'm going to give it a go since it does sometimes stand on its own.....but if it doesn't work (and I know at her age the chances are slim) then no big deal. I want to work her, I'll never set foot in an AKC ring, so it really doesn't matter in the long run. 

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

Liesje said:


> She's beautiful. I love your hound too. You look like a natural handler. If that ear stands you should try UKC conformation.


Thanks so much! Nike (My Ibizan) is a really, really neat dog. I'd never had a sighthound before and I got her to be my running partner and honestly wasn't expecting much else....you hear how "aloof" and standoff-ish and untrainable they are....well, she is simply a joy. She's kind, gentle, loving, super affectionate, loves everyone, learns very quickly....granted she's no working dog, she doesn't have the temperament or work ethic of a GSD or Rottie, for instance, but she's a pleasure to have around. And just gorgeous to look at-- she's like owning living art history! Not to mention that I have yet to outlast that dog on a run lol

As for showing UKC....if I can get that ear up, even for a few hours at a time, I'll give it a go. I've shown dogs since 1990, but really got burnt out on AKC about 5 years ago. I doubt I'll ever show AKC again. But I do enjoy the UKC and INT shows. Much more relaxed atmosphere and more family oriented. There's a UKC show coming up in a month that I am hoping to finish my Ibizan at and if I can get her ear in shape by then, I'll certainly take her along. Thanks for the compliment....I need to learn the nuances of handling a GSD, lol. It's completely different from any other breed ....and I've handled many lol

Carey


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## workingk9_Ohio

simba405 said:


> Sorry to offend. In your post you said she was deathly afraid of the stairs. IMO that is absolutely nerves. Cautious of something is fine. Especially something the dog has never seen. Deathly afraid and doesn't wanna go near is another issue. I'm just going off your description of the dog.


I appreciate the apology-- the internet is a funny thing....tone, etc, cannot be heard and of course none of you know me and my penchant for the dramatic lol  
Cautious, curious, and apprehensive would be great descriptions. Willing to try what I ask her in spite of her fear is also another accurate one. Without even really knowing me, she's already showing trust in me by doing something I ask her to do that she is really unsure of. I have no doubt she will master the stairs soon, right along with her growing trust in me. 


Carey


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## Stefan Schaub

Hello

so i will introduce my self.
I am the owner of Staatsmacht kennel, founded in Germany in 2002 and now since 3 years living in the US.
I also own Terror and i owned his mother and grandmother, i work his grand grand mother and i worked his dad and grand dad many many times. Terror is strong minded , social with other dogs great with his family and a real dog when you turn his switch on.

Maybe it is important to say that Terror is one of many siblings with high work drive and successful used dogs in the breed world wide. you are more than welcome to visits us and meet Terror and many of his kids.
I can not tell you anything about your girls mom, but i am sure that Sherry (Breeder of your dog) will answer all your questions.

Really like your red hair!!


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## workingk9_Ohio

Stefan Schaub said:


> Hello
> 
> so i will introduce my self.
> I am the owner of Staatsmacht kennel, founded in Germany in 2002 and now since 3 years living in the US.
> I also own Terror and i owned his mother and grandmother, i work his grand grand mother and i worked his dad and grand dad many many times. Terror is strong minded , social with other dogs great with his family and a real dog when you turn his switch on.
> 
> Maybe it is important to say that Terror is one of many siblings with high work drive and successful used dogs in the breed world wide. you are more than welcome to visits us and meet Terror and many of his kids.
> I can not tell you anything about your girls mom, but i am sure that Sherry (Breeder of your dog) will answer all your questions.
> 
> Really like your red hair!!


Hi Stefan! Great to "meet" you. Where in the states are you located? 

Terror is a gorgeous dog-- I would love to see video of him working, but I only found a brief clip on youtube. Do you find that his pups are "one person" dogs.....I haven't had Jetta very long but she already seems to be very much MY dog and is becoming quite protective of me. She is not a dog I can walk around the neighborhood and have strangers come up wanting to pet her. My previous IPO titled Rottweiler was very approachable by anyone, and in fact even used as a therapy dog for children learning to read at the local library. You'd never know she was protection trained unless someone threatened me. Jetta, on the other hand, seems to be on the alert at all times and is not at all welcoming to strangers. I do not mind this, but since I haven't owned a GSD before I'd love to know if this is normal behavior for the breed, this line, or if I should be socializing her more. I do not think she received appropriate socialization over the past year or so, so we are definitely working on that now, I just want to know what I should be expecting of her......should she welcome strangers? By that, I mean when we are out walking, not in our home or yard, and there is no obvious threat. I know she needs time to settle in to our home, and to learn how to be a house dog instead of a kennel dog. I just want to give her the most appropriate training and corrections. 
She really is a beautiful girl, and she is very resilient and willing to let me do anything to her and with her. I gave her her first bath yesterday in the back yard with a hose and she stood quite still for me and really seemed to enjoy it. I wouldn't consider her "spooky" at all, but at times she is unsure of things due to being raised in a kennel and not socialized properly. 

At what age do your dogs typically become mature mentally and physically? Jetta is quite a big girl, I will find her weight out later today at the vet, but I expect somewhere around 60-70 pounds, and she is underweight. How much does Terror weigh?

Obviously I have many questions  Thanks for reaching out to me. And thanks for the compliment on the hair 

Carey & Jetta


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## Stefan Schaub

We are in Minnesota.
Terror produced in many dogs his loyalty to the family or single persons. most of the gsd today are to much clowns and have lost the real old characteristic of the breed.
do not understand me wrong, there is a difference between loyal and sick behavior.I do not like dogs who show bad behavior for no reason.
Terror would never bite someone with out a reason, he does not care for other people outside of his pack. when people come over for training or for studs and i let him out he goes is own way, would never start something.the same with other dogs,would never start to fight, i think he knows how strong he is.

if you have any questions let me know
here is my email address 

[email protected]


----------



## Vandal

I think what Stefan just said is something so many people no longer understand. They think there is always an environmental cause for certain behaviors or for a dog who wants to protect their family. Many will tell you it is “fear aggression”. 
Apparently, not many people come across these kinds of dogs or else they are quick to write them off....due to ignorance... and they are discarded. Others set out trying to “fix” the dog when in reality, all these dogs need is training and proper direction from a competent handler. The rest of the time, they just need their owners to understand how to leave them alone.

So many people claim they want a dog to protect them but when they get one, all of a sudden it’s a problem. The kinds of dogs Stefan is talking about need to be managed, especially when they are younger but the ones I had, turned out to be the best dogs I ever owned. They really did protect me in real life and the idea that there was fear attached to what they did in those situations makes me chuckle. 

About your dog. This is what I have learned over the years. 
She is in a new place and while she may be friendly to you, she still does not see you as hers yet. It takes about three months for a dog to settle in to a new home completely. The first two weeks is where you will see the most change in her and have the most “problems’ while the rest mostly becomes a case of hindsight. When they change homes, they feel alone, (especially the dogs like Stefan is talking about...the truly loyal ones), and have a tendency to over-react to things that they probably did not even notice at their last home. They can be more dog and people aggressive as a result because again, the dogs feel more alone than they will once they get to know their owner and trust them. 
Give her some time and don’t start dragging her everywhere and putting her into stressful situations. Doing that destroys trust. She needs to learn to trust you first. As was mentioned, this may be her nature, so you need to address it with some training where you tell her how you want her to behave in certain situations. Having said that, good training is not only knowing how to train something but WHEN to train it. Right now, she needs to just settle in and learn to trust you. I would not try to “socialize” her right now. It is too soon. Later on, once she knows you, use obedience, like a sit command to communicate what you want her to do. I would not have people trying to pet her or feed her or any of that other kind of stuff. Just tell her to sit and allow her to look at what is going on around her at an appropriate distance. She needs to stay in the sit which does not include barking, growling etc. That’s something for later... right now she should simply be getting to know and trust you.


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## G-burg

Anne~ Thank you for that! 

So true that many do not realize what this breed is about! And freak because their dog barked at someone, something, etc. etc. etc.. Just look on this message board alone.. And this is a small sampling..


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## lalachka

Are you saying that it's normal that a dog barks at strangers? Even if they're just saying how cute he looks?
Like where do you draw the line? Is it OK to bark when someone walks towards you fast, talks to you, what's normal?


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## lalachka

I don't want to derail another thread. I'm really interested in these comments, that it's normal for the dogs to bark and not let anyone approach them even if they're not a threat. 

If it's off topic here then please reply in the thread below

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=464209


If this is normal I will gladly leave my dog alone. I've been told that it's not normal.


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## Liesje

lalachka said:


> Are you saying that it's normal that a dog barks at strangers? Even if they're just saying how cute he looks?
> Like where do you draw the line? Is it OK to bark when someone walks towards you fast, talks to you, what's normal?


I think (??) the point is that you can't gauge what is "normal" based on something a dog has done one or two times, especially a young dog in a completely new environment with a brand new owner. This dog just got a new home and is transitioning from a kennel and has a new owner she doesn't know. She cannot be judged so harshly or completely written off because she had a reaction once or twice that may not be ideal. Even the best dogs are DOGS, not machines. Most of the time it's the owner getting all worked up over nothing and causing more problems or allowing things to escalate.


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## lalachka

I guess I misunderstood. I thought those were general statements, not about the op's dog. 

OK then. Thank you


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## simba405

lalachka said:


> Are you saying that it's normal that a dog barks at strangers? Even if they're just saying how cute he looks?


No that's not normal for any stable well bred shepherd no matter what lines.


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## Stefan Schaub

lalachka said:


> Are you saying that it's normal that a dog barks at strangers? Even if they're just saying how cute he looks?
> Like where do you draw the line? Is it OK to bark when someone walks towards you fast, talks to you, what's normal?


would you like that i come over and say how cute you are and than i start to pet you!! you like that?? why should every dog like that and take that.

Is barking a sign of not want something,what is it for a bark? what does barking mean at all,does it mean all time the same? 

it is ok for me that my dogs can decide by them self if they want get pet or not. if they come to you and offer ok, if they do not come there is a reason!!!


----------



## lalachka

Stefan Schaub said:


> would you like that i come over and say how cute you are and than i start to pet you!! you like that?? why should every dog like that and take that.
> 
> 
> 
> Is barking a sign of not want something,what is it for a bark? what does barking mean at all,does it mean all time the same?
> 
> 
> 
> it is ok for me that my dogs can decide by them self if they want get pet or not. if they come to you and offer ok, if they do not come there is a reason!!!



My dog comes to me to get pet and seems to enjoy it when I come to pet him. But this is not even about petting, I can live without anyone ever petting him. 

People come up to talk to me and he will bark and lunge. Is that normal as well? 
Or people come up to me while looking at him and he will flip. That's OK too?

It just seems to me that it's not but this is my first dog and I'm learning as I go.


----------



## lalachka

simba405 said:


> No that's not normal for any stable well bred shepherd no matter what lines.



That's what I thought but there was a few posts earlier saying that people are quick to label everything fear aggression and that the dogs are protecting when they bark at strangers (unless I misunderstood)


----------



## onyx'girl

No it is not ok, but US as GSD owner/handlers need to be proactive and keep our dogs successful. This breed has so many poorly bred dogs that are reactive and can't discern what is a threat or what isn't....especially when they are immature.
I wish they could all be aloof, stable as the standard calls for, but so many are put together with no thought other than $. 
Those that have the poorly nerved dogs know what I'm talking about. They are not what the GSD should be represented as, but seem to be dominating this breed. I won't even get into the health situation.....thats a whole 'nother thread!


----------



## lalachka

Now I'm lost lol. 
2 knowledgeable people (I don't know either of them but that's what the forum seems to think) say that this is normal. What am I missing?

Am I misreading their posts? Vandal and Steven's posts. And g burg too, I guess


----------



## robk

Lalacka,
There are some things that you cannot learn on the internet. You need to see more dogs. Have you ever been to an IPO club? If not, go watch one. If they have a big group of dogs you will see both highly reactive dogs and very stable dogs. Over time you will learn to recognize good character and faulty character.


----------



## onyx'girl

It isn't that difficult to understand. GSD's are proactive, want to protect/guard. They are either high or lower threshold and react according to their temperament. Balance is key, IMO. I'd rather have a dog that thinks before reacts...others like a dog that reacts then thinks. 
Not one of my dogs enjoys attention from strangers, and will bark if they see something out of the ordinary. Patrolling the perimeter of our property right when they go outside is a habit. Though two of them would be wrong in their decision making if I left it up to them. I manage them, not a big deal.

But the one I really don't have to manage is the one that is well bred, stable and will protect when necessary.


----------



## workingk9_Ohio

Stefan Schaub said:


> We are in Minnesota.
> Terror produced in many dogs his loyalty to the family or single persons. most of the gsd today are to much clowns and have lost the real old characteristic of the breed.
> do not understand me wrong, there is a difference between loyal and sick behavior.I do not like dogs who show bad behavior for no reason.
> Terror would never bite someone with out a reason, he does not care for other people outside of his pack. when people come over for training or for studs and i let him out he goes is own way, would never start something.the same with other dogs,would never start to fight, i think he knows how strong he is.
> 
> if you have any questions let me know
> here is my email address
> 
> [email protected]


Thanks so much! I was thinking you would affirm this. I don't at all want her to be super friendly to everyone. I like that old world loyalty and protection and I definitely don't want a clown or I would have gotten a Golden Retriever ;-)

Carey


----------



## workingk9_Ohio

Vandal said:


> I think what Stefan just said is something so many people no longer understand. They think there is always an environmental cause for certain behaviors or for a dog who wants to protect their family. Many will tell you it is “fear aggression”.
> Apparently, not many people come across these kinds of dogs or else they are quick to write them off....due to ignorance... and they are discarded. Others set out trying to “fix” the dog when in reality, all these dogs need is training and proper direction from a competent handler. The rest of the time, they just need their owners to understand how to leave them alone.
> 
> So many people claim they want a dog to protect them but when they get one, all of a sudden it’s a problem. The kinds of dogs Stefan is talking about need to be managed, especially when they are younger but the ones I had, turned out to be the best dogs I ever owned. They really did protect me in real life and the idea that there was fear attached to what they did in those situations makes me chuckle.
> 
> About your dog. This is what I have learned over the years.
> She is in a new place and while she may be friendly to you, she still does not see you as hers yet. It takes about three months for a dog to settle in to a new home completely. The first two weeks is where you will see the most change in her and have the most “problems’ while the rest mostly becomes a case of hindsight. When they change homes, they feel alone, (especially the dogs like Stefan is talking about...the truly loyal ones), and have a tendency to over-react to things that they probably did not even notice at their last home. They can be more dog and people aggressive as a result because again, the dogs feel more alone than they will once they get to know their owner and trust them.
> Give her some time and don’t start dragging her everywhere and putting her into stressful situations. Doing that destroys trust. She needs to learn to trust you first. As was mentioned, this may be her nature, so you need to address it with some training where you tell her how you want her to behave in certain situations. Having said that, good training is not only knowing how to train something but WHEN to train it. Right now, she needs to just settle in and learn to trust you. I would not try to “socialize” her right now. It is too soon. Later on, once she knows you, use obedience, like a sit command to communicate what you want her to do. I would not have people trying to pet her or feed her or any of that other kind of stuff. Just tell her to sit and allow her to look at what is going on around her at an appropriate distance. She needs to stay in the sit which does not include barking, growling etc. That’s something for later... right now she should simply be getting to know and trust you.


Anne, thank you so much. This was very, very helpful and has really given me some direction. I am giving her plenty of "settle in" time and don't plan to start formal obedience training at a club until mid-August. Until then, we are doing lots of long walks, with quick corrections if she barks inappropriately, which isn't happening often. She takes corrections very well and I rarely have to correct her twice on something. I did take her to the vet yesterday for her annual since she was overdue and I have other dogs to consider. Everything checked out well. My vet is very understanding of working dogs and mostly just ignored her and talked to me so she wouldn't feel threatened. I used to work as a vet tech for many, many years, so they always allow me to restrain the dogs for vaccines, blood pulls, etc, and she did great, all things considered. While I would in no way describe her behavior at the vet as "bold", she wasn't a train wreck, either, wasn't trying to climb the walls, or escape, and wasn't barking at all. She was simply unsure-- her previous owner always kept her in a kennel and the vet always made trips out to his kennel, as well as the trainer, so she really hasn't been anywhere besides that property much at all.

She is becoming more adventurous as the days go on. She is curious and will barge right into a dark shed, or the garage or any other place something interesting may be. She doesn't hang back and sulk, she is open and intrigued. I think, as you said, with some time to learn to trust me, and then some structured training and socializing, she will reach her full potential and be a wonderful dog for me. 

I will not worry about socializing her for now and will simply focus on building trust and a strong, healthy bond. I love that she loves to be *near* me, but not *ON* me....she is simply very content to lie at my feet while I"m watching TV, or on the computer, or what have you. She very much wants to be with me, but she is not overbearing and it is not in a "desperate" manner. 

Your post gave me a lot of insight, I appreciate you taking the time to write it. 

Carey & Jetta


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## workingk9_Ohio

Liesje said:


> I think (??) the point is that you can't gauge what is "normal" based on something a dog has done one or two times, especially a young dog in a completely new environment with a brand new owner. This dog just got a new home and is transitioning from a kennel and has a new owner she doesn't know. She cannot be judged so harshly or completely written off because she had a reaction once or twice that may not be ideal. Even the best dogs are DOGS, not machines. Most of the time it's the owner getting all worked up over nothing and causing more problems or allowing things to escalate.


This is a good point.....thankfully, I am a calm, assertive leader (thank you Cesar, lol), and don't get excited over much. I know my quiet confidence and leadership will help her transition well. I really think we will make a good team.


----------



## workingk9_Ohio

Vandal said:


> I think what Stefan just said is something so many people no longer understand. They think there is always an environmental cause for certain behaviors or for a dog who wants to protect their family. Many will tell you it is “fear aggression”.
> Apparently, not many people come across these kinds of dogs or else they are quick to write them off....due to ignorance... and they are discarded. Others set out trying to “fix” the dog when in reality, all these dogs need is training and proper direction from a competent handler. The rest of the time, they just need their owners to understand how to leave them alone.
> 
> So many people claim they want a dog to protect them but when they get one, all of a sudden it’s a problem. The kinds of dogs Stefan is talking about need to be managed, especially when they are younger but the ones I had, turned out to be the best dogs I ever owned. They really did protect me in real life and the idea that there was fear attached to what they did in those situations makes me chuckle.
> 
> About your dog. This is what I have learned over the years.
> She is in a new place and while she may be friendly to you, she still does not see you as hers yet. It takes about three months for a dog to settle in to a new home completely. The first two weeks is where you will see the most change in her and have the most “problems’ while the rest mostly becomes a case of hindsight. When they change homes, they feel alone, (especially the dogs like Stefan is talking about...the truly loyal ones), and have a tendency to over-react to things that they probably did not even notice at their last home. They can be more dog and people aggressive as a result because again, the dogs feel more alone than they will once they get to know their owner and trust them.
> Give her some time and don’t start dragging her everywhere and putting her into stressful situations. Doing that destroys trust. She needs to learn to trust you first. As was mentioned, this may be her nature, so you need to address it with some training where you tell her how you want her to behave in certain situations. Having said that, good training is not only knowing how to train something but WHEN to train it. Right now, she needs to just settle in and learn to trust you. I would not try to “socialize” her right now. It is too soon. Later on, once she knows you, use obedience, like a sit command to communicate what you want her to do. I would not have people trying to pet her or feed her or any of that other kind of stuff. Just tell her to sit and allow her to look at what is going on around her at an appropriate distance. She needs to stay in the sit which does not include barking, growling etc. That’s something for later... right now she should simply be getting to know and trust you.


I also meant to ask....I was going to take her down to the local schutzhund club next week for an evaluation and to start training with them. I am thinking perhaps this would be too soon and I should delay that until she's been here a few months?

carey & jetta


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## onyx'girl

The two week shutdown has some important info, even if you don't go all out.... I'd recommend it for anyone getting an older pup/dog. I wish all rescues would encourage this too.
http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/2_week_shutdown0001.pdf


----------



## workingk9_Ohio

-- as an aside, I just purchased Schutzhund Theory and Training....are there any other good books y'all would recommend?

Carey


----------



## workingk9_Ohio

Stefan Schaub said:


> would you like that i come over and say how cute you are and than i start to pet you!! you like that?? why should every dog like that and take that.
> 
> Is barking a sign of not want something,what is it for a bark? what does barking mean at all,does it mean all time the same?
> 
> it is ok for me that my dogs can decide by them self if they want get pet or not. if they come to you and offer ok, if they do not come there is a reason!!!


I'm with Stefan-- I didn't buy a Golden, I don't WANT a dog that welcomes and loves on everyone. My husband is a truck driver, he is gone quite a lot. I wanted to dog that would truly be loyal to me and really, truly protect myself and my family if needed. I do not expect or want Jetta to be this goofy, happy-go-lucky lover dog that anyone can frolick and play with. I want her to be aloof with strangers, which it appears is how she will be. I do correct her when we are walking and she barks at someone across the street minding their own business. She isn't spinning on the end of the leash, snapping, snarling and spitting. She's giving a simple bark, which I correct and we move on. No biggie. I have other dogs that visitors & strangers can pet and play with. 

Carey & Jetta


----------



## gsdsar

Lala, I think the difference lies in how and why the dog is responding the way it is. Stefan states that he allows his dog to chose wether or not to be pet. But his dog is not actively lunging and barking at people. They just chose to not want to be pet. 

I may be wrong. But that's how I read it. Not that whenever people approach him his dog tries to attack them. 

A stable dog can tell the difference between a threat, an annoyance and a friend. 

But too often we forget that we do not own Golden Retrievers. We own a breed that has protective instincts. And that every bark at a stranger is not the same and every action the dog makes is not always bad or out if fear or because it's unstable. But sometimes it is. We need to look at the entirety of the picture to decide if the dog is behaving appropriately or not. And all the while understanding that our GSD are not supposed to be social butterflies who want love and affection from everyone they meet. 

The standard states they should be aloof. Not active aggressive or fearful but indifferent to those not in their family. If a stranger pushes the interaction, then I would expect even the best dog to react. But a dog should not react to everything and everyone. That shows a lack of ability to read the environment and nerve instability. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka

robk said:


> Lalacka,
> There are some things that you cannot learn on the internet. You need to see more dogs. Have you ever been to an IPO club? If not, go watch one. If they have a big group of dogs you will see both highly reactive dogs and very stable dogs. Over time you will learn to recognize good character and faulty character.



I'd love to. I can't get one to respond. I've emailed, called. Lol will try again but no luck so far


----------



## Liesje

lala....I would focus more on getting the results you want out of your dog than trying to put labels on him/her. If you don't ever want your dog to bark at a stranger, then you may have to learn how to stop that and manage it. For some people, that is not a concern or a priority and it has nothing to do with the stability of their dogs.

If you walked up to my front door or came up the driveway to my gate, both these dogs would bark at you. Do they look like unstable fear aggressive biters? They are German Shepherds.


----------



## workingk9_Ohio

onyx'girl said:


> The two week shutdown has some important info, even if you don't go all out.... I'd recommend it for anyone getting an older pup/dog. I wish all rescues would encourage this too.
> http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/2_week_shutdown0001.pdf


Thank you, I will go check it out now. 

Carey


----------



## Vandal

The biggest problem with the internet is people who don’t take the time to read things completely and then add what they “thought” was written to their question. 

The reality is this. GSDs are not dogs for just anyone. Dogs are living beings. GSDs were intended to be protective dogs. They are also dogs who are very connected to their owners. Call it loyalty or call it intuition but they know what we are thinking. If you wander around in public feeling like a nervous wreck because you are AFRAID your dog will bark at a person or a dog, you can be sure your dog will do just that. Unless he is a dull, overly friendly Labrador. We are talking about dogs with protective instincts and no, I don’t mean dogs with poor temperament. 

I have some very protective, serious dogs. I can take them into cramped Vet waiting rooms with other people and dogs right next to me and they don’t make a sound. Just sit patiently watching me to see what we are going to do next. The main reason I can do that is my attitude. I behave as if there is nothing my dog needs to be concerned with. They know I have the situation under control and that I don’t need their help. If you want your dog to think before he acts, you need to behave in a way where he CAN think clearly. You should also take a good look at the people you come into contact with. Many behave just like I do when I am trying to bring aggression out of a dog in protection training. 

HUGE numbers of people disturb their dogs with their own behavior. This is especially true when their dog has barked at someone or something in the past and the people start to “get ready” for it to happen again....so it does. This is because their behavior is telling their dog “something is wrong” every time a dog or a person approaches. I behave the way these people do when I am working my dog in protection. I play the part of a person who needs their dog’s help. I DON’T behave that way when I take my dog out into the general public. It’s a pretty simple truth but people have a hard time accepting it. If you want to be in control of the dog, you have to be in control of yourself. I don’t blame dogs for wanting to bark at some people. So many are simply un-natural in how they behave. I am constantly reminding people to RELAX ....some of them. I’d like to throw in the blind to work on the HB. As I said, I behave like those people when I really want a dog to be aggressive in SchH protection. It’s just not something you can ignore and expect the dog to not be affected by.

I own a boarding kennel, I see MANY poorly bred GSDs . I’m not talking about those kinds of dogs. I am talking about dogs who were bred to have a higher level of social aggression. When I say “manage” I mean controlling yourself as a handler and communicating with your dog. Not simply leaving all the decisions up to them. It shouldn’t really require much more than a spoken word .
There are dull dogs and there are hair triggers, the GSD was intended to be a medium threshold dog. That means watchful and ready....doesn’t have anything to do with being “reactive” a term that has been completely perverted by the many “dog trainers” now. People should spent a bit more time looking at their own behavior when they handle their dog. All dogs strong and weak, would be so much better off if they did.

Also, there are dogs who are like what Stefan is talking about. Not accepting of strangers but very affectionate dogs with the family, etc. That does not put those dogs in the “poor temperament” or “reactive” category. They have always been in the breed and are necessary. The ignorance and labeling by inexperienced people is the main reason we are seeing less and less of them and why we are seeing so many more “clowns” . 

My dogs don’t much care for affection and pets from strangers. Therefore, I don’t allow it. I don’t care how many “dog experts” are out there insisting that they are “so good with dogs” so should be allowed to do something stupid like that. You try to pet my dog and you’ll wish the dog bit you...... instead of dealing with me.


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## lalachka

I don't want my dog to be a butterfly, i avoid people actually. I used petting as an example. 


When a person comes up asking if they can pet your dog or saying that the dog is nice I don't think a dog should react. That's all I'm saying. 

From reading here, it sounds like people are saying it's OK for a dog to react. 

Am I misunderstanding what's being said? I thought people are saying it's OK. Because if I don't like people coming up to me telling me I'm cute then he has the right to not like it either. 

I might not like it, that's my right. But I don't have the right to curse someone out if they're just being nice. I can, of course, but that's the wrong thing to do IMO. Unwarranted. Barking and lunging because someone thinks he's cute is IMO unwarranted. No?


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## lalachka

Liesje said:


> lala....I would focus more on getting the results you want out of your dog than trying to put labels on him/her. If you don't ever want your dog to bark at a stranger, then you may have to learn how to stop that and manage it. For some people, that is not a concern or a priority and it has nothing to do with the stability of their dogs.
> 
> If you walked up to my front door or came up the driveway to my gate, both these dogs would bark at you. Do they look like unstable fear aggressive biters? They are German Shepherds.



Lol here's the thing. I only care about it because I was told that it's insecurity and fear aggression. So I'm assuming he's in an uncomfortable state. The act of barking at people doesn't bother me, I stay away from everyone anyway. 

It bothers me only if it means that he's stressed, scared and anxious and is reacting because of that. That's why I'm asking, that's why the thread about fear aggression. I'm trying to understand what drives his reactions. 

If he's comfortable barking at people - let him. I will just keep avoiding them


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## Vandal

> I also meant to ask....I was going to take her down to the local schutzhund club next week for an evaluation and to start training with them. I am thinking perhaps this would be too soon and I should delay that until she's been here a few months?


 If it were my dog, I would wait about six weeks before I went to a club. That's just me, I like to give my dogs time and I am never in a hurry.


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## lalachka

Vandal, I don't understand the attitude. I said 10 times 'unless I misunderstood' and I also made it clear that I don't know what I'm doing so I'm asking questions. 
I'm sure someone took time to teach you when you were starting out without making you feel stupid.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Its about the body language the dog is showing not the barking in and of itself. The disposition of the dog, the ear set, tail set, pitch of the bark, hackles, etc..

Go to an IPO club they will tell you if the dog is fearful or just out of control.


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## LifeofRiley

I think I might bookmark this thread so I can direct people who adopt a GSD from a shelter/rescue to it in the future. Because, I suspect, any new member who adopted a dog from a shelter would have received very different prognostications about their dog. In fact, in that scenario, I have no doubt that many people would have told the OP that, sorry, your dog is genetically fearful, nothing you can do about it – it is what it is – all that is left to you is constant management .. 

But, my experience in fostering GSDs (and other dogs) would tell a different story. No doubt there are dogs out there that are wired wrong, but I truly believe that is a very small percentage of dogs... at least the ones that I have seen come through rescue (and thus have been temperament tested). 

My experience is that dogs arriving in new homes - no matter the breed - need time to adjust before their true personalities present themselves. But, you, the new handler of any given dog, need to focus on building your relationship with that dog from Day One. As Vandal said, building trust is really important… and that requires giving the dog the time and space to observe your household routines and time and space to learn your expectations of them inside and outside of the home… In my experience, GSDs are quick studies and they want to please


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## Vandal

> Vandal, I don't understand the attitude. I said 10 times 'unless I misunderstood' and I also made it clear that I don't know what I'm doing so I'm asking questions.
> I'm sure someone took time to teach you when you were starting out without making you feel stupid.


No one can 'make" you feel stupid my dear and once again, that was not directed solely at you. It was more a general statement. If you want to take it personal, that's your decision. There is lots of good information there. Take it or leave it. That's up to you.


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## lalachka

Vandal said:


> No one can 'make" you feel stupid my dear and once again, that was not directed solely at you. It was more a general statement. If you want to take it personal, that's your decision. There is lots of good information there. Take it or leave it. That's up to you.



Yep there was lots of good info. Just wish it wasn't prefaced with that. Outside now, will try controlling myself. I most def expect reactions and he probably picks up on it. 

You know what I meant about feeling stupid. It's an expression. I meant 'without giving you an attitude'



Blitzkrieg, emailed and called 2 clubs 10 times or more. Maybe they're dead clubs. Will try again. I'd love to go


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## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> Yep there was lots of good info. Just wish it wasn't prefaced with that. Outside now, will try controlling myself. I most def expect reactions and he probably picks up on it.
> 
> You know what I meant about feeling stupid. It's an expression. I meant 'without giving you an attitude'
> 
> 
> 
> Blitzkrieg, emailed and called 2 clubs 10 times or more. Maybe they're dead clubs. Will try again. I'd love to go


Out of curiousity were is your dog from?


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## Liesje

lalachka said:


> I don't want my dog to be a butterfly, i avoid people actually. I used petting as an example.
> 
> 
> When a person comes up asking if they can pet your dog or saying that the dog is nice I don't think a dog should react. That's all I'm saying.
> 
> From reading here, it sounds like people are saying it's OK for a dog to react.
> 
> Am I misunderstanding what's being said? I thought people are saying it's OK. Because if I don't like people coming up to me telling me I'm cute then he has the right to not like it either.
> 
> I might not like it, that's my right. But I don't have the right to curse someone out if they're just being nice. I can, of course, but that's the wrong thing to do IMO. Unwarranted. Barking and lunging because someone thinks he's cute is IMO unwarranted. No?


What we're saying (or at least what I'm saying) is not that it's OK for the dog to "react", but that the dog may be reacting to YOU more than anything. You may be over-analyzing his behavior when he could be picking up on you worrying about how he acts and that is what is keeping him on edge.


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## Liesje

I'll give an example if it helps. When one of my dogs was young, he would have a meltdown when he saw another dog. It wasn't "dog aggression" or "fear aggression" or any of those labels. He was 1) just overstimulated and 2) picking up on my nerves not knowing how to handle a dog like this and being way too concerned about how he acted around other dogs. I find that the more I own GSDs, the more they are self-fulfilling prophecies. If I'm worrying about something, chances are, the thing I'm worrying about will happen. This was my first experience owning an intact male GSD and I was so worried that he would be hard to handle or aggressive towards dogs, he turned into a wailing idiot. If he saw another dog even a full block away, he would literally lie down on the cement, howling, with his teeth chattering. At first I did what the pet "behaviorist" trainer said and took him on as many walks as I could, constantly exposing him to other dogs. What happened? He just threw the same fit every time and I was always worried or embarrassed. Then I took a different approach. I kept him home for just a few months. I stopped doing the group class pet type training and went to a Schutzhund club. I developed a real bond with my dog and he learned to trust and respect me and I learned to trust *him* and not worry that he was going to turn into this awful monster of a dog. This problem of him having a fit around other dogs disappeared. I never directly addressed it, but I focused on other areas of our relationship and training and I learned to be a better leader, to take a giant chill pill, to communicate fairly but effectively what was acceptable behavior and what wasn't. The answer was not specifically focusing on this one behavior I didn't like, but just relaxing a bit and letting my dog grow up. Now this dog is fine. He is on my bed right now with two other dogs almost on top of him. He does flyball where there are 8 loose dogs running around and chasing things in a small area. I foster pit bull mixes for a local rescue and he is very good with the puppies, showing them the ropes and helping to set boundaries. Besides one of my friend's Border Collies that he just doesn't like, he's very safe around other dogs and very fair with them. Has zero desire to play or interact with dogs outside of our household, but I can take him to the dog beach and play off leash if I want to.


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## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Out of curiousity were is your dog from?



Straight from an Amish puppy mill. At least I'm sure it is. When I went there I didn't see kennels and a thousand dogs, it was only him and another pup in the barn. 

But after I got him, I read up on Amish puppy mills and actually found a puppy miller's instructions for others and he says to build the kennels away from sight and right before buyers come to put a few pups in a barn. 

So yeah.....


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## carmspack

as a herding breed the GSD is supposed to have an alert watchfulness of things happening in the environment and be ready to act upon things appropriately .

when DDR GSD were made available in the early 90's the one thing that they contributed was a disappearing "sharpness" . This sharpness was the keen mental awareness , not the negative connotation of being an indiscriminate biter .

Stefan and most Europeans have embedded linguistic and cultural formal and familiar forms of respect or social distance . 
The difference between a Du , the familiar , and the more formal Sie that you would use for strangers or for business.

Used to be a time when father was Sir , now every dad is "Jim" first name basis . 
When I was a kid , visiting my friends at their house we would call the parents Mrs smith or Mr smith.

When my kids brought their friends over to the house those kids would call me Carmen, first name , without asking for the privilege. 

So to understand aloof and neutral , non threatening , sense of propriety may come more naturally to a European background.

A dog that has been with you briefly has not bonded . It takes more than a dinner and a nice bed. Give it 6 months minimum .


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## lalachka

Lies, I most def tense up if I see a dog coming. I know I shouldn't but it's not easy. 

About the relationship, I agree))))) that's not the only problem we have so I'm def doing something wrong. The problem with recommending to be a better leader is that I don't know what it means. And even if i did - I am who I am, I can't change at 40)))))

But I agree. It's def something about me. I will think about your post and see how I can fix it. He does things like, scream at the top of his lungs of my daughter and I separate outside, that's also a symptom of something. 

Thank you


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## Vandal

Even if he isn't the strongest dog, if you handle him in a confident fashion, it will help his confidence. You can use obedience to tell him how to behave and personally, I would not allow people to pet him. If you come into contact with people, tell your dog to sit and ask them to simply ignore your dog. When you use obedience, to keep him in one place, that too helps build confidence. He figures out that when he sits quietly, nothing bad happens to him. You just have to make sure that is the case and that you are relaxed but ready to "remind him" to stay in the sit. Your voice and your body language really matter, so you have to be relaxed and at the same time ready. Takes a while to master that.


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## lalachka

Yep. I feel like he doesn't trust me. We have a good relationship, he's attached to my hip lol, we enjoy each other, but I've done so much dumb stuff (let people like friends pet him when I can tell he's uncomfortable, let dogs rough him up (I cringe thinking about it, I was told dogs should work it out)) that I think he feels like he can't trust me to protect him anymore. 

Can I ever get it back? I won't let anyone touch him, friends or not. Can he ever learn to trust me again?


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## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> Straight from an Amish puppy mill. At least I'm sure it is. When I went there I didn't see kennels and a thousand dogs, it was only him and another pup in the barn.
> 
> But after I got him, I read up on Amish puppy mills and actually found a puppy miller's instructions for others and he says to build the kennels away from sight and right before buyers come to put a few pups in a barn.
> 
> So yeah.....


Well its doubtful that your seeing social aggression but you never know until you get someone knowledgable to eval him. NOT a pet trainer or "behaviorist".


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## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Well its doubtful that your seeing social aggression but you never know until you get someone knowledgable to eval him. NOT a pet trainer or "behaviorist".



Lol I never liked them. All my trainers that I've listened to have been sport. Unfortunately the ones I like are far away. I was told he's good dog that wants to please and is just being a punk. 

I really need someone good here. Balanced, positive and force, not pure force or pure positive.


ETA he hasn't reacted full force in front of them. He's usually better behaved. But they still saw some reactions. Probably enough to tell


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## glowingtoadfly

Vandal said:


> The biggest problem with the internet is people who don’t take the time to read things completely and then add what they “thought” was written to their question.
> 
> The reality is this. GSDs are not dogs for just anyone. Dogs are living beings. GSDs were intended to be protective dogs. They are also dogs who are very connected to their owners. Call it loyalty or call it intuition but they know what we are thinking. If you wander around in public feeling like a nervous wreck because you are AFRAID your dog will bark at a person or a dog, you can be sure your dog will do just that. Unless he is a dull, overly friendly Labrador. We are talking about dogs with protective instincts and no, I don’t mean dogs with poor temperament.
> 
> I have some very protective, serious dogs. I can take them into cramped Vet waiting rooms with other people and dogs right next to me and they don’t make a sound. Just sit patiently watching me to see what we are going to do next. The main reason I can do that is my attitude. I behave as if there is nothing my dog needs to be concerned with. They know I have the situation under control and that I don’t need their help. If you want your dog to think before he acts, you need to behave in a way where he CAN think clearly. You should also take a good look at the people you come into contact with. Many behave just like I do when I am trying to bring aggression out of a dog in protection training.
> 
> HUGE numbers of people disturb their dogs with their own behavior. This is especially true when their dog has barked at someone or something in the past and the people start to “get ready” for it to happen again....so it does. This is because their behavior is telling their dog “something is wrong” every time a dog or a person approaches. I behave the way these people do when I am working my dog in protection. I play the part of a person who needs their dog’s help. I DON’T behave that way when I take my dog out into the general public. It’s a pretty simple truth but people have a hard time accepting it. If you want to be in control of the dog, you have to be in control of yourself. I don’t blame dogs for wanting to bark at some people. So many are simply un-natural in how they behave. I am constantly reminding people to RELAX ....some of them. I’d like to throw in the blind to work on the HB. As I said, I behave like those people when I really want a dog to be aggressive in SchH protection. It’s just not something you can ignore and expect the dog to not be affected by.
> 
> I own a boarding kennel, I see MANY poorly bred GSDs . I’m not talking about those kinds of dogs. I am talking about dogs who were bred to have a higher level of social aggression. When I say “manage” I mean controlling yourself as a handler and communicating with your dog. Not simply leaving all the decisions up to them. It shouldn’t really require much more than a spoken word .
> There are dull dogs and there are hair triggers, the GSD was intended to be a medium threshold dog. That means watchful and ready....doesn’t have anything to do with being “reactive” a term that has been completely perverted by the many “dog trainers” now. People should spent a bit more time looking at their own behavior when they handle their dog. All dogs strong and weak, would be so much better off if they did.
> 
> Also, there are dogs who are like what Stefan is talking about. Not accepting of strangers but very affectionate dogs with the family, etc. That does not put those dogs in the “poor temperament” or “reactive” category. They have always been in the breed and are necessary. The ignorance and labeling by inexperienced people is the main reason we are seeing less and less of them and why we are seeing so many more “clowns” .
> 
> My dogs don’t much care for affection and pets from strangers. Therefore, I don’t allow it. I don’t care how many “dog experts” are out there insisting that they are “so good with dogs” so should be allowed to do something stupid like that. You try to pet my dog and you’ll wish the dog bit you...... instead of dealing with me.


This is such a relief to hear. Thank you for posting.


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## lauren43

There is def a difference between a protective reaction and a fear based reaction and I think they are very important to distinguish.

I see many dogs labeled as protective, but then you see them in person and they are simply a jumble of nerves.

My goal in getting a GSD is to have a highly intelligent, easily trainable, active companion for myself. I am not looking for a dog that loves every person they meet, I'm hoping for a dog that will be indifferent to strangers. And will be a solid confident, non-nervous dog. My last dog lived in a state of fear and I never want to see a dog live that way again.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## workingk9_Ohio

*update*

Just an update on my girl....she's been here a little over 2 weeks and she is doing GREAT. She has no issues with the stairs any longer and she sleeps in my room with me. She's pretty much *always* with me, as she prefers to be  She's definitely become "my" dog. She's integrated well with our pack, with only a few minor skirmishes. She enjoys her daily long walks, and occasional runs. She transitioned very well and quickly from kennel dog to house dog. 

Oh, and I did call and speak with her breeder who was very happy to give me some tips and advise. 

Yesterday we went out and did a completely unrehearsed obedience practice. I don't know exactly what she knows yet as I've just concentrated on letting her settle in, but I felt she wanted/needed to do a little work so we did a quick little routine. Mind you, I have *never* worked her before, and only guessed at what she may know--as you can see from the brief video, on our very first try she did a great heel, sit, down, stay, sit-stay, down-stay, recall, & finish and I was very pleased with her focus, considering we've never done a single training session. I'm very impressed and am just dying to get her into obedience classes next month and to start training with a Schutzhund Club soon. 

Thanks for all the support and information. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5gOBiSFasQ

Carey & Jetta


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## mego

your vid is private


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## workingk9_Ohio

mego said:


> your vid is private


Actually-- I hadn't published it yet and hadn't realized it. Sorry! It should work now lol

Carey & Jetta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5gOBiSFasQ


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## workingk9_Ohio

*4 month update*

This dog is *AMAZING*..... we have completed an advanced obedience course (for confidence building & socialization, she already had the skills) and start another class for Rally tomorrow. She goes everywhere with me. She ADORES our family, all the kids, the chihuahuas, the corso, the Ibizan, all of them. She plays and explores but for the most part, she prefers to be by my side. She is very, very athletic-- I take her walking, running, hiking and biking. I never need a leash, you couldn't call her from my side if you tried. I take her on mountain bike trails, river bikeways, etc-- no leash- and she stays right next to me. She responds immediately to all commands, even in the presence of squirrels, lol. She has really blossomed in the last 4 months and I anticipate she will continue to bloom. I have taken her to festivals and through crowds. Everyone comments on how beautiful she is and wants to pet her. There have been several people who just reach out and pet her without asking (with no reaction from Jetta), so I purchased a vest that says "DO NOT PET-- IN TRAINING" so that we can continue our immersion into crowds and such without having to worry about her having her personal space invaded. We got LOTS of compliments at the training facility on how much she had progressed and how impressed they were with her (including several GSD owners). 

After living with her for 4 months, it's clear she will *never* be a social butterfly. She is NOT a "nervous" dog-- she doesn't react to wheelchairs, loud noises, umbrellas, cars backfiring, you name it-- it doesn't phase her....she simply does not like strangers to touch her. I'm ok with that. The past week I've had contractors in and out of the house all day doing a remodel on a bathroom....when I first got her, she would have barked, snarled, reacted, etc.....now she of course barks when they first walk in...I tell her to QUIET and she's fine. She lies quietly next to me unless they try to approach her, at which point she will very clearly state she is not interested. When I'm up and about, she walks around and past them quietly but she absolutely would not seek any type of petting or attention from them. That's ok. It's obvious she's quite stable and happy with HER family and doesn't need fawning over by strange people.....I'm actually GLAD she's that way since my husband travels a lot for work (he's a truck driver). 

Though I think we still have progress to be made, I am thrilled with where she is, considering where she came from. 

We are proceeding with Rally and in the spring will start tracking classes and I still would like to do IPO if she's evaluated as acceptable for it. There is a regional IPO trial coming up in a few weeks about a mile from my house and we will be going down to watch and have her evaluated. 
Bottom line-- I got a solid dog who needed a little help in the area of socialization and I couldn't be happier with her. I NEVER wanted a GSD....I had never lived with one or been around them and I definitely didn't want to deal with ALL.THAT.HAIR. LOL....but now, I honestly wouldn't sell this dog for a million dollars and I can't imagine my life without a GSD from here on out. THE most loyal, intelligent dog I have ever owned bar none. :wub:

Carey & Jetta


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## Emoore

Stefan Schaub said:


> would you like that i come over and say how cute you are and than i start to pet you!! you like that??




I don't know, are you attractive and single?


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## ksotto333

Emoore said:


> I don't know, are you attractive and single?


Perspective is everything...


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## lhczth

Sounds like she is doing very well and you are having fun with her.


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## workingk9_Ohio

She sure is and I am. Thanks!


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