# Getting Started...



## ShoshanaRVT

So I'm here because I want to become a GSD breeder. 

I seem to be different from other people in this thread in that I do not yet have a dog worthy of breeding. My 5 y.o.GSD is the first of the reasons I want to start breeding, but it's because he is a very good example of how BYBs, puppy mills, and breeding for appearance only are destroying the GSD. He has a new GSD spinal disease causing congenital hindlimb abnormalities and paralysis as well as cataracts (successfully surgically removed), IBD, and pancreatic insufficiency. He is a phenomenal wheelie dog, but also the poster-dog for kijiji. 

The second reason is my career. As a veterinary technician, I see far too many poorly-bred GSDs. Last winter we experienced a heartbreaking month where we euthanized 5 separate GSDs before the age of 6 due to severe aggression or genetic health problems. The final one, I asked my co-workers if they could think of any other breed that is euthanized young more than GSDs, and no one could come up with an answer. Something is seriously wrong here, and something needs to change. I want to do what I can to make a positive impact on the breed that I grew up with. 

The number one reason of course is the GSD. I am fascinated that they can be true Jack-of -all-trades (and master of all) dogs. Schutzhund, family companion, SAR, herding, obedience, agility, tracking, flyball, therapy dog, guide dog, or any other job you ask them to do. 

This decision was difficult for me because I am a huge rescue advocate, all of my previous and current pets are rescues. However, if I can make a positive impact on the breed perhaps there will be fewer GSDs in rescues. 

So lets get down to the point that I need some input on. How do I approach a reputable, responsible breeder and say, "Hey, you don't know me and I don't know you, but GSDs are awesome and I want to purchase a pup from you and oh by the way, I don't want a non-breeding contract," without said breeder deleting the email, hanging up the phone, or slamming the door in my face. Because personally, if I heard me in 20 years that is what I would be tempted to do. 

What I am currently doing is trying to is build a erm, furture-breeder-resume. I'm working on getting my current GSD his Canine Good Neighbor certification (he passed the Therepy Dog test, but can not get certified because he does not have total bladder control), as well as starting on tracking. I would like to get him more titles and participation in other events, but his paralysis and wheelchair will keep him from schutzhund, agility, flyball or obedience (shhh, don't tell him there something he can't do), and I think any herding animals would be terrified of his wheels. I recently found a local GSD club that holds regular meetings, various trials and events, as well as participating in public events. I am starting to attend said events, trials and meetings to better gain understanding of what is involved with all the various activities that our dogs love to do, as well as the huge amount of time, love, knowledge, energy and money that goes into a good breeding program. Of course there is also the wealth of information that I can gain from being with a group of GSD breeders. I am also an active member of our city's dog owner's association, and an active participant in anti-BSL groups in Ontario. 

I should say that as a breeder I would be most interested in tracking, obediance, agility, and CGN/therapy work. (I love schutzhund, but I'm still not sure how I feel about bite work. I still need to find a good trainer to chat with who has experience in this area) I would want to prove that my dogs are sound in mind and body. 

Although I am about 5 years away from purchasing my first quality dog, I want to do everything I can now to make sure I make a few mistakes as possible. This will be something that becomes an enormous part of my life, so I do not feel that I could possibly start planning too soon. I have a few choice breeders picked out (though I have not ruled out import), but before I contact them and scare them off completely I want to know if there is anything else I should be doing to show I'm not some crazy dog lady (or maybe just the right amount of crazy). Also, any other suggestions/nuggets of wisdom anyone can pass on would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks so much!


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## Castlemaid

I love that Avatar pic! Welcome to the forum, and I'm so sorry about the heartbreak you have to go through in your job. I'm glad you are trying to get as much exposure to dogs and activities as you can - you are on the right track. I really respect the good GSD breeders, who work and shed sweat, tears and blood to produce the best examples of the breed - very challenging to consistently produce good dogs when the bloodlines are so infused with health and temperament issues, as you witness regularly in you work. 

I think what a breeder of GSDs needs to remember is that the GSD is a versatile working dog, that can be an active police or military working dog, a SAR dog, a champion Agility dog, a top Schutzhund dog, and also a wonderful, reliable, family dog that is a take-anywhere, meet-anyone dog. Most people like yourself see the family pets that don't even cut it as pets, and the heartbreak that brings, and vow to do better - issue is, that only seeing the 'pet' part and only breeding for the 'pet' part is only breeding but 1/10 of what the GSD is. So really important for a future breeder to get involved in the working dog world and get intimately familiar with the other 9/10. Helps the breeder see deep within the psychological makeup of the dog, and understand how different dogs act and react in times of stress, physical and mental, how they adapt to new situations, etc . . . that helps the breeder find those gems among hundreds that _should_ be bred to carry on the legacy of the GSD. 

There are some great stickies in the breeding section - best thing to do is to start reading through them. Much of it might be over your head to start, but with more reading it will start to give some really good insights into why so many GSDs are being put down for aggression and health issues, and why a dog that the standard describes as "full of self-confidence" and "fearless" has in general become known among the general public as being skittish. 

So good luck with your plans! If you are not already familiar with the different types and lines of GSDs, then that is another area to start to learn and become an expert before you start breeding. 

Even our puppy/first-time-owner section has some good info on that, if you want to take a look:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...79460-different-flavors-german-shepherds.html


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## FlyAway

What a sweet picture! 

I think you are off to a good start by joining a GSD club. Is this a regional offshoot of the GSDCA? Being active in the breed club and volunteering to work on committees and at shows is a great way to get yourself out there and learn everything there is about GSDs. I have found networking with breeders on Facebook to be very helpful when looking for a quality puppy, as well. 

Good luck! I'll be looking for more photos of your pup.


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## lhczth

IMO the best breeders are those that work their GSD and breeding is just something they do along the way. You need knowledge and you get knowledge by doing. I don't mean breeding. I mean by training, working, spending time around good dogs, and doing real stuff with your dogs. Until you know good dogs, it is next to impossible to make sound breeding decisions. You will also find that over the years, the more dogs you own, the more you work, the more experience you gain, that you will look at your first dogs much differently. 

When I was looking for my first GSD I told the breeder that I was interested in breeding some day. She didn't freak, but then the climate was different back then. She was also German so had a different mind set about breeding. I never bred that dog. Didn't breed the second, third or forth. Took me a long time to find that special dog that I felt would contribute to the breed. 

So, take your time, never lower your standards just to sell puppies and don't expect your first dog to be that special dog.


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## holland

lhczth said:


> IMO the best breeders are those that work their GSD and breeding is just something they do along the way. You need knowledge and you get knowledge by doing. I don't mean breeding. I mean by training, working, spending time around good dogs, and doing real stuff with your dogs. Until you know good dogs, it is next to impossible to make sound breeding decisions. You will also find that over the years, the more dogs you own, the more you work, the more experience you gain, that you will look at your first dogs much differently.
> 
> When I was looking for my first GSD I told the breeder that I was interested in breeding some day. She didn't freak, but then the climate was different back then. She was also German so had a different mind set about breeding. I never bred that dog. Didn't breed the second, third or forth. Took me a long time to find that special dog that I felt would contribute to the breed.
> 
> So, take your time, never lower your standards just to sell puppies and don't expect your first dog to be that special dog.


I think that is a really unfortunate choice of words. While my first dog my not have been breedworthy he was special -in a lot of ways. Don't really think a dog has to be breedworthy or a schutzhund dog to be special


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## Liesje

I disagree, _in the context of the thread _it makes perfect sense. Why do you think Lisa is saying that first dogs aren't special? That is not what she's saying, she's saying that for most people their first dog is not their *foundation* dog for *breeding*. For me and you that is also true.


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## holland

Just because you don't breed a dog -does not mean that it isn't special-She was equating breeding a dog with it being special its not-my opinion


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## Liesje

I guess we agree to disagree then. The thread is about finding a BREEDING dog, a foundation bitch. Obviously dogs are special regardless but that's not what the OP is asking about.


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## Liberatore

I think the point is not special enough to breed. There is such a small percentage of dogs that should be bred, that, yes, they most certainly are special when you find them.

Ang


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## msvette2u

Liberatore said:


> I think the point is not special enough to breed. There is such a small percentage of dogs that should be bred, that, yes, they most certainly are special when you find them.
> 
> Ang


This.
All our pets are special to us. But few make the grade to be a foundation bitch or stud for your future kennel.

I have 9 dogs here, rescued dogs, all extremely special to us. But being rescued, being altered, etc., they are not breed-worthy, they are pets.


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## ShoshanaRVT

Boomer is definitely special, and my first (not family) GSD. All my dogs are special. But breeding special? Not at all. (I actually had someone ask me if I planned on breeding Boomer because he has pretty coloring. They didn't think the paralysis thing was a big deal, and that it was a shame I neutered him ASAP) Thank you for all the input and expertise, please keep it coming!

I should clarify that if my future dogs will always be my family first, competition dogs next, then breeding dogs only if they do a good enough job in the first 2 areas. If my first dog is not exceptional enough that her breeding would benefit the GSD, I would not breed her, period. I'm hoping that with enough research I can maximize that possibility, but still unsure how to bring that up with the kennel. Can you have a non-breeding contract re-written if the dog show potential? I'm under the impression that dogs are given a non-breeding contract for a reason so I'm uncomfortable with this. I want to be straightforward with the breeder so that they can help me find the right dog, a working dog who is also family friendly and social that may be breeding material.


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## doggiedad

it's like this. a person has their first child. the child is special
but that doesn't mean the child should breed. :crazy:



holland said:


> Just because you don't breed a dog -does not mean that it isn't special-She was equating breeding a dog with it being special its not-my opinion


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## PatchonGSD

FINALLY! Somebody who isnt coming here to say "Welp-just bred my dog. Now I'm a GSD breeder. What do I do when the puppies get here.?"

OP, I could kiss you, and I wish the best of luck on your way to becoming a true breeder.


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## PatchonGSD

doggiedad said:


> it's like this. a person has their first child. the child is special
> but that doesn't mean the child should breed. :crazy:


:spittingcoffee::rofl::rofl:


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## Liesje

ShoshanaRVT said:


> I should clarify that if my future dogs will always be my family first, competition dogs next, then breeding dogs only if they do a good enough job in the first 2 areas. If my first dog is not exceptional enough that her breeding would benefit the GSD, I would not breed her, period. I'm hoping that with enough research I can maximize that possibility, but still unsure how to bring that up with the kennel. Can you have a non-breeding contract re-written if the dog show potential? I'm under the impression that dogs are given a non-breeding contract for a reason so I'm uncomfortable with this. I want to be straightforward with the breeder so that they can help me find the right dog, a working dog who is also family friendly and social that may be breeding material.


I believe some breeders who have non-breeding contracts and sell limited registration will lift that and switch to full registration once the dog is of a certain age and attains certain health certificates and/or titles, so yes this is possible and does happen. You can also just get full registration from the get-go. This is what I have done, as I am just not comfortable with someone else limiting what I can do with my dog. Now to date I have not bred, even my dogs that were purchase with no limits and full registration. I like to have that choice though, and not have to jump through someone else's hoops in order to get restrictions lifted later on, but I find that at least in the USA I seem to be in the minority and a lot of people will insist a breeder is not reputable *unless* they are selling limited registration. I am of the opinion that if a breeder does not like something about me or how they think I will treat the dog it is their right not to sell me a dog but once I buy a dog it is mine and I will decide what I can and cannot do with it.


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## robk

I think that many problems with the breed come from breeders who do not know what they are breeding because they do not prove their dogs against other great dogs.

If you are interested in being involved in tracking, obedience and agility, my advice is to buy the best dog you can find and become very active in those avenues. Become really competitive. You will learn so much more about the breed by doing and being involved. You will see and compete against great examples of the breed and you will be known for your passion. Along the way you will have your chance to make your mark on the breed. It is your active involvement in the breed that will make the difference.


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## ShoshanaRVT

Thanks again everyone!


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## Freestep

robk said:


> If you are interested in being involved in tracking, obedience and agility, my advice is to buy the best dog you can find and become very active in those avenues. Become really competitive. You will learn so much more about the breed by doing and being involved. You will see and compete against great examples of the breed and you will be known for your passion.


Exactly this.

Just from the bit I have done, I learned SO much that I never could have without actually being there. I'm not a breeder and I don't really compete anymore, but once you get out there and SEE the dogs, in training and in trialing, you get a series of "aha" moments that you can build upon for the rest of your career in dogs. May I ask how old you are?

My suggestion would be this: Get your first well-bred GSD to have fun and learn the ropes with. Don't expect him/her to be your breeding foundation--if works out, great, but don't EXPECT it. He/she is your learning dog. Get involved in every GSD-related event you can. Make connections with other GSD people. Listen, and watch everyone else train. Your goal at this point is education, not breeding.

Hopefully, through all these activities, you will be able to find a mentor. That is really the only way to learn how to become a breeder, IMO. It might be the breeder you got your dog from, or it might not. Some breeders are excited about helping new folks get into the breed, others are more wary of newcomers. If you get out there with your dog and prove that you are dedicated and serious, people are more likely to take you seriously, and you're more likely to find people willing to help.

And thank you for approaching things the RIGHT way!


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## ShoshanaRVT

I am in my mid 20's right now, so I have many years ahead to learn the ropes, and make a positive difference. (I should point out that unlike most people my age I've been out of post-secondary for many years with a well-established career, married in a very stable relationship, and overall stable life. I have lived with, owned, and trained dogs my entire life and I'm on to my 3rd & 4th not family owned dog. I also understand that life will throw you punches and you just have to roll with them!) I have a few friends that I'm learning a lot of basic breeding info from (one breeds Golden Retrievers and one Cavalier King Charles Spaniels). I'm learning a tonne of info from this forum (including what not to do!), local events, trainers, and breeders, including the local GSD club. I'm going into this knowing that the first bitch I bring home may not be breeding quality, but I want to keep the possibility open that she will be. Is it wiser to spay her no matter how she does and just have fun? I would just hate to miss the opportunity if she turns out to be a great foundation girl. That being said, is it wrong to look for a great foundation bitch right away? I'm currently getting Boomer into tracking (other sports are out due to his wheelies) to get a feel for it. Because of the extra work that goes into caring for Boomer, my next dog will not be coming until after Boomer has moved on to bigger and better things (hopefully many years, but there's no shame in planning ahead)


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## carmspack

you have some good ideas . Just to comment on this ", is it wrong to look for a great foundation bitch right away" my answer would be yes and no and yes. 
The very first thing you need to get is a foundation in understanding the breed , before a foundation breed bitch . There are some great threads on this forum - Ice Berg breeders , one on the Swedish mentality tests , another one on samples of good conformation , genetic obedience , many others . 
So what dogs do you like so far?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Join a Scch club work a dog there, title it meet people and prove yourself. Most clubs have a few breeders that attend and will happily sell unrestricted dogs to other members. 
As for purchasing you can buy plenty of nice unrestricted WL GSDS online. Pedigree data base, working line dog forums etc. 
Theres a breeder who imports Nice Chezck dogs, and usually sells pups as well. Alpine Kennels I believe.

Just be sure you know what your looking for temperment bloodlines wise. How do you learn that stuff? Research and go to the local Schutzhund Club. I learned more there then anywhere else and I still have much more to learn.


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## ShoshanaRVT

I am a huge supporter of working lines vs. conformation. Most of the working dogs I have met I've really liked in both body and mind, especially Czech dogs. However I try to look for bloodlines that have some history of therapy work since I have also met a few Belgian malinois who apparently do great in the French ring but are absolutely psychotic in real life. There are some locally bred police GSDs in this area that are pretty nuts as well. We occasionally see an RCMP GSD who is DDR/Czech lines, and he is everything I would want in a dog. Hard-working and focused when on, but a laid back family pet when off-duty. Most importantly, no health issues! It does seem that his breeder only sells to RCMP however I have met a few Czech dogs that are very similar. The theory is that Boomer's condition may be attributed to the sloped-back look of show (especially USA) GSDs so I do tend to look for dogs with a straight top-line. *ducks to dodge the flying rocks* Because I feel that GSDs should be jack-of-all trades dogs I do look for a variety of working titles including herding, tracking, agility, SAR, police work, therapy, Sch and just good family dogs. I originally thought about importing, but I did find a breeder I like in Canada, so I may try to go a bit more locally. German Shepherd breeder,German Shepherd puppies 

I'm very happy to say that I found a local Sch. club and that I just received an invited to go snoop in on training! Boomer can't play, and the Doberdog is a bit too  "special" but I'm hoping I can still get involved.


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## carmspack

There are some locally bred police GSDs in this area that are pretty nuts as well. 

---------are they police dogs that are certified or are you talking about the persons personal dogs -- two different things 

"It does seem that his breeder only sells to RCMP however"

----- never heard of such a thing -- not every dog they produce will fulfill their demands , as in all things in breeding you hand pick them for their different callings -- I have had several dogs in with the RCMP -- 
ask for proof - bill of sale !


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## Andaka

> The theory is that Boomer's condition may be attributed to the sloped-back look of show (especially USA) GSDs so I do tend to look for dogs with a straight top-line. *ducks to dodge the flying rocks*


If it was due to the sloped back, then more GSD's with sloped backs would have it.


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## ShoshanaRVT

Andaka: It _is_ something that is popping up in the USA show lines. I do not know extensive details because Boomer is only part of the study (and one of the first documented dogs). I'm not actually doing anything other than submitting samples and information, and occasionally getting updates. There is still many years of work to know the root cause and possibly develop a genetic test. The only thing they know thus far is it is showing up in GSDs: reputable breeders, BYBs, and puppy-mills. It has yet to show up in working lines. The challenge of this study is most breeders ad rescues would have these pups humanly euthanized as soon as their deformities become apparent as their future quality of life would be questionable. 

carmspack: Thank you, I will keep looking into it. Perhaps he just prefers working homes, and got the impression mine would not be. The questionable dogs are certified police dogs, and comments on behaviour from a person who used to work with them and who's opinion on dogs I value. I don't want to go into any details for confidentiality reasons.


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## Liesje

Maybe I missed it but what's the name of Boomer's condition?


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## ShoshanaRVT

Liesje: Terribly unscientific, so far it's just called straight-leg-shepherds. Medically speaking it would just be listed as "multiple hindlimb abnormalities". Unfortunately the only information on-line is terribly out of date at this time and there just simply isn't much out there to begin with. The largest issue that the people trying to research this condition faces is the majority of pups are humanly euthanized very young or at birth. Therefore many dogs cannot be screened for other diseases that can be very similar or even to added into the database if they are indeed a straight-leg shepherds.


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## JakodaCD OA

there is someone on this forum (and forgive me I can't remember their handle) who's had quite a few shepherds with this, she has adopted them because of their special needs. I don't recall the lines of the dogs she has/had. Maybe another member can fill in the blanks

And I do not believe it is due to 'sloped back"...if so, as Daphne said, there would be hundreds out there with it.


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## GT

JakodaCD OA said:


> there is someone on this forum (and forgive me I can't remember their handle) who's had quite a few shepherds with this, she has adopted them because of their special needs. I don't recall the lines of the dogs she has/had. Maybe another member can fill in the blanks


Joanne ("Spiritsmam") adopted several GSDs with straight hind legs.
Disabled German Shepherds, hindlimb deformity, limb deformity, straight leg shepherds

.


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## JakodaCD OA

GT thank you, that's her


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## ShoshanaRVT

There defiantly needs to be more research into straight leg shepherds. It does look like there are some mutts that have popped up with it as well as a rottie. I do not know definitively that this is a GSD show dog disease, it is unknown what is causing it. We know it is congenital, does this mean it's genetic? So far it's unknown. Hopefully the missing link will be found soon so that we can avoid producing more dogs like Boomer. 

I don't agree that sloped backs have nothing to do with this. The abnormality forms in the lumbar region, and sloped conformation GSDs differ from their straight-backed kin from the lumbar region down. Conformation is breeding for appearances and alone does not produce healthy, sound dogs and never will. Talk to any orthopaedic surgeon about our so-called champion GSD, and s/he won't need radiographs to tell you that that dog is a walking vet bill. There are good conformation breeders out there who have their dogs screened for diseases, titled in a variety of sports to prove that they are athletic, sound and intelligent as well as just pretty. They're a working breed, go back to basics, breed them for the jobs that they are meant to do and form will follow. The GSDs that I admire most are from working lines: Sound in mind and body.


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## Freestep

ShoshanaRVT said:


> There defiantly needs to be more research into straight leg shepherds. It does look like there are some mutts that have popped up with it as well as a rottie.
> 
> I don't agree that sloped backs have nothing to do with this. The abnormality forms in the lumbar region, and sloped conformation GSDs differ from their straight-backed kin from the lumbar region down.


If Rotties and mutts are popping up with this syndrome, it sort of defeats your argument that it has anything to do with a "sloped back". Furthermore, the "slope" is not caused by the back, but the rear legs. Because show lines (most notably American show lines) have such acute angulation in the rear legs, it causes the rear end to appear lower than the front end, with the back sloping downward... but if you were to put a normal set of rear legs on the dog, the back would appear more or less level.


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## Lauri & The Gang

ShoshanaRVT said:


> Also, any other suggestions/nuggets of wisdom anyone can pass on would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks so much!


I don't think anyone mentioned this but here's a suggestion. Find a breeder that you think is doing it right - producing the right type of dogs and doing it the way you think is right - and ask them if they would be willing to mentor you.


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