# Looking for "raw" breeder in NYC area



## SheilaH (Sep 6, 2012)

Hi all

I am a newbie to the list. It's great that there's a subforum about raw feeding.

My holistic vet suggested that I look for a GSD breeder who has been feeding her dogs raw food for at least three generations. (And is careful about only using OFA good/excellent etc in her line.) Of course longevity is a plus, plus, plus!

Does anyone know of a breeder like this in the NY-NJ-PA-CT area not too far from NYC? I am looking for a puppy (male) who will mature into a calm companion animal, and who'd be able to do obedience. I am not into American show line type dogs (no offense.)

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
Sheila
NYC


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow... A vet that is open to and actually recommends feeding raw. Hold onto this one because they aren't very common.

And what do you mean "a calm companion"? This is a working breed and these dogs need to live very active lives for the most part. A walk or two a day is not going to cut it especially if you go the working line route. Not trying to lecture you or anything, I just hope you're aware of this before you make the plunge.

And before people start recommending breeders, I think you need to figure out the line you want to go with. This should give you a general idea of what's out there. 

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You can have a working dog that is calm . check out the "Nickolas" thread --


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't read that thread (but I will now), but "calm" can be a subjective term when talking about dogs. What one person describes as calm might not be calm to the next. 

And just generally speaking here, but my guess is what the general public would describe as "a calm dog" is probably the exception to the rule when it comes to working line GSD's. I'm sure anything's possible though.


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## SheilaH (Sep 6, 2012)

Hi

Thanks for your replies. The site on types or lines of GSD is very interesting.

I have met several working German Shepherds whom I would describe as "calm". One was a herding dog, but very laid back and sweet, as was his brother.

My last dog was a Malamute, also a "working breed" and he was fun and active inside but very mellow inside the house. 

I am not sure how much "calmness" --- for example, dog aggression --- is genetic and how much is training. Any thoughts about this when it comes to GSD lines? I know Fidelco guide dogs are all GSDs... but I have not studied what lines they use. Is a guide dog considered a "working line"?

I don't want to stereotype NYC... my neighborhood is very safe, but I have considered doing schutzhund work because I have heard that only trained dogs are actually capable of self defense, and certainly the high degree of dsicipline that Schutzhund dogs display are a great safety factor (the dog's safety, not mine!). In my experience the most dangerous dogs are the untrained oneswho can come from any breed. A friend of mine had an otherwise "calm," very sweet, nonagressive, neutered, Shepherd mix who went bonkers when he saw other dogs.

It sounds dumb, but GSD owners who have Schutzhund trained dogs must get this question: has there ever been a "real life" situation in which your dog successfully protected you, and in which that extra degree of training (as opposed to the natutal protective instinct of the GSD) made a difference? I am especially thinking of the ability to call a dog "off"!

thanks much... and I would still appreciate any breeder referrals people might have.

best
SheilaH


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Schh is a sport, just because the dog can do well on the field doesnt mean he/she will do well in a real life situation. There are other sports that mimick "real life" a bit more but PP training is not the same as Schh training.
As for whether a dog will protect its both genetics and training, the dog must have the drive and constitution genetically. Training can increase self confidence, teach the dog how to protect and give the handler greater control while in a situation.

You hear stories in the news from time to time about a dog that is just a pet that protects his / her owner, or rescues them from a fire etc. Some dogs just have "it". But training is the best route to go if you want an actual PP dog.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I think you're speaking more of a dog with an 'off switch'... where the dog can come down inside the house. Yes, there are many working dogs who can do this. Schutzhund dogs are 'sport' dogs for the most part. I don't know as they'd know what to do in a 'real life' situation. They're trained to bite on a sleeve. Now some will do well in real life situations, but just because they have a title doesn't mean they will. There's a difference between prey drive and defensive drive. My first GSD wasn't Schutzhund trained at all... yet he protected me without being told to. He started off just by my side as a threat, then moved into a 'bark and hold' but he meant business. He did actually bite once. (It was totally justified) A shepherd with a good, clear head and solid nerves and temperament won't be dog aggressive or aggressive at all unless it's warranted. Some have more civil aggression and natural suspicion than others. Although shutzhund is a good way to look at some things, that's not going to tell you if the dog is dog aggressive or how it would react under extreme pressure or civil situations. Due to the sheer number of GSD's being bred with bad temperaments and poor nerves, I'd look for breeders who are breeding for the betterment of the breed, and people who have dogs from that breeder that can attest to the soundness of the dog. If you're just looking for a dog that will protect your family on the off chance of a threat... any GSD who was bred well should be able to do this. You may have to take a long drive or have a dog flown to you (I don't know what's available in your area). You want the pedigree of the litter first, then you can ask about the pedigree here also BEFORE you make a commitment. 

Teaching 'out' to any dog is very important. This would be your 'off' command. Are you planning on doing Schutzhund with this dog? There are other 'sports' which deal with a more 'real life' situation also. Are you needing a body guard type dog for a specific threat? If so, you may want to look into an already trained adult dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

SheilaH,

I think you are 100% on the right track in your thought process. There are breeders who feed raw and breed calm solid nerved working line dogs with an off switch that can be used for protection training. I hope you stick around and get to know some of the names on this board. There is a wealth of knowledge here that can help you a lot.

Hint; pay attention to carmspack's posts.

Good luck!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I"m confused about the "3 generations of raw" thing?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I"m confused about the "3 generations of raw" thing?


I'm confused about that as well. Raw feeding is great, but it does not affect a dog's genes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As far as Schutzhund and protection, this is what my first TD told me and I agree wholeheartedly...a dog first falls back on his genetics, then his foundation, and then his training. That means regardless of training (or lack thereof) if your dog is genetically very protective and has high social aggression, he's going to react and protect you whether you train him to or not (and probably whether you want him to or not). What Schutzhund and other protection training has offered me "in real life" is more control and more confidence handling my dog. We've already thrown a lot of various scenarios at him in training, so I know how to "read" him and how/when he will react or not react. There's also a high level of obedience and control required so I am confident handling my dog in public. He is a very serious dog when it comes to protection training but is also safe. I walk him in public and bring him to elementary school demonstrations. He does flyball where he is running around in a chaotic environment with dozens of other dogs. Schutzhund has taught me about my dog and encouraged me to dig into his pedigree and get some really helpful insight from very experienced people. Schutzhund gives me and my dog more confidence because we've "seen" a lot of different scenarios and already know how to react to protect each other.

My dog just turned four and he's quite calm in the house now, actually pretty lazy at times. For example if I'm sick for a week he will sleep at my feet and not act crazy because I can't exercise him. But when we step onto the training field he is ready to work for as long as it takes. When he was younger he was a bit more hyper and always wanted me to get up and play but now that he has matured he is very much a house companion. I no longer crate him (or my mixed breed). I just got home from a weekend away and both dogs were free in the house all weekend with my sister coming to feed and potty them and they were fine. Nothing is destroyed and after a minute or so of being crazy happy to see me, my dog is now sleeping on the couch. I value drive and athleticism and energy to work but I also agree that a good dog can be just a companion for an indefinite period without destroying the house or driving me crazy.


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## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

GSDElsa said:


> I"m confused about the "3 generations of raw" thing?


I would guess it has something to do with Pottenger's cats.


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## SheilaH (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks, everyone 
I've had a chance now to re-read all your replies. You have given me some good suggestions hese... reading past posts from knowledgeable people, and taking the time to study pedigree.

I really appreciate your taking the time to share your dog experiences with me. I was very impressed with accounts of "clear headed" dogs, and surely this is the kind of dog anyone would want. In today's society where guns are so prevalent it's just as important to have a dog that will stay quiet and still when asked

I don't need a trained protection dog - I have an "average" - if there is such a thing - need for a dog that is protective but can be walked in Central Park, which is chock-a-block with dogs and kids and the occasional wacky person who may act strange but is no harm at tall...

I must say, it is very confusing when you look at websites... every breeder says their dog is mentally stable and free of genetic defects. I'll be following your advice, doing more research, making calls, etc. I may be wrong, but it appears to me that it would be good to investigate "working lines" since these breeders tend to be the ones who actually do work with dogs that actually tests their dogs stability... as opposed to "show" dogs that are bred more for appearance. I may be wrong about German show lines, of course (but, they also seem to be extremely expensive)

Since my query about "raw" breeders got no specific recommendations, I will search the archives for recommendations and comments about breeders in the NY area.

thanks much
Sheila


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