# Opinions about this behavior (video)



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

In the past, I've mentioned how Kira would bark at certain people as they enter my home.
I can have 10 people walk in, and she would happily greet 9 of them. Then one of them may rub her wrong, and she would get "agitated" for better words.
I cant put my finger on her behavior, or set her up for this. It's random.

I wanted to demonstrate the type of behavior that she exhibits when that certain "someone" enters my home. She would get agitated, yet not at the others that may have entered the same time.


In the video below, I was washing my truck in my driveway. I do this on a regular basis, and have Kira sit at the top of the steps to home. I have full trust that she would not run away, and would stop if I called her.

At this moment, a stray cat decided to walk about 30 feet in front of my home. I happen to have my phone in my hand, and hit the record button.

For a few moments, she just stood there and watched the cat,and the cat just sat there and watched back.

This is what I get in my home for certain strangers (and cats).

What do YOU see here?? What is her body language telling you?

FYI... Under normal circumstances, I would stop this immediately. In this case, I wanted to document this, and let it go. So go easy on me. 

Just curious.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I see her thinking "DARN there he goes telling me to stay"..

Sorry Anthony I couldn't resist, I'm not going to be a negative ninney, must say nice obedience on her


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't think she likes the cat, whether its because she's not used to them or she feels they don't belong in her area, I'm not sure. I'm sure lots of people will chime in soon. I don't think I see fear, but I do see a dog saying back off, this is my house. I still love your dog and her level of obedience in this situation


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I see her thinking "DARN there he goes telling me to stay"..
> 
> Sorry Anthony I couldn't resist, I'm not going to be a negative ninney, must say nice obedience on her


OK, that was a happy start  I needed that. 
I was starting to get sweaty palms.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if it gets to rough, I'll throw in a couple more laughs


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> if it gets to rough, I'll throw in a couple more laughs


LOL.. Thanks.

If anything, I'm trying to learn her body language. Inexperienced people can easily interpret this behavior the wrong way.
Having a better understanding of what she's doing, would make it much easier to correct.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I see a protective dog who's telling a "intruder" to back off. But the fact she is still listening to you is a very good sign that her brain is still working and she's not fully locked into fight mode

JMO


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## dbrk9 (Aug 9, 2012)

To me she is just saying I am Queen Bee! My shepherd does this too when she sees my cat...AND certain people or things that set her off. I agree on your dog's awesome obedience, she's just doing her job!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Shade said:


> I see a protective dog who's telling a "intruder" to back off. But the fact she is still listening to you is a very good sign that her brain is still working and she's not fully locked into fight mode
> 
> JMO


Exactly what I was thinking. If this were Lucy and she saw a cat or any stray little animal (squirrel, chipmunk, etc) other than a dog in front of her yard, she'd be gone and the chase would be on. 

She's definitely aroused... just look at her hackles. She's definitely telling that cat to back off too while holding her ground. It's good to see she still listens to you though. She's locked in, but not completely locked in where nothing else (you) matters. Credit yourself for that - good job training.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. If this were Lucy and she saw a cat or any stray little animal (squirrel, chipmunk, etc) other than a dog in front of her yard, she'd be gone and the chase would be on.
> 
> She's definitely aroused... just look at her hackles. She's definitely telling that cat to back off too while holding her ground. It's good to see she still listens to you though. She's locked in, but not completely locked in where nothing else (you) matters. *Credit yourself for that - good job training*.


Thank you.


Definitely aroused.

If she were to do this inside my home, and ONLY to a certain guest, and not others, how would you then see it?

In this case, it's one dog, one cat, in front of her house.

In another scenario, she may do this, with one person out of ten.

As far as training.... I can't wait to hopefully start some form of formalized training program. I am so eager to learn the proper commands and techniques. I think Kira has a foundation, and knows that she has to listen, but it would be awesome if I knew how to execute properly.

I'm having her evaluated next week at a local Shutzhund club.
I'm looking forward to it. I hope she has what it takes.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> Definitely aroused.
> 
> If she were to do this inside my home, and ONLY to a certain guest, and not others, how would you then see it?
> 
> ...


For me, it's a little different with people, especially welcomed guests you invite in the home. If she's picking out certain people, somethings setting her off. Only she knows what it is, but I wouldn't find it as acceptable behavior. If this were happening in the home with people, I'd immediately remove her from the situation and correct. Maybe a quick no as the correction or something similar, but definitely remove her immediately. 

I know from your other thread that you've already been read the riot act regarding this issue, so i won't get too into it. I wouldn't accept it or allow her to do it when it comes to humans though. In this situation, you're not really correcting her, so you're basically telling her it's acceptable. But this is a random stray cat and not a welcomed guess, so it's a little different. Different mindset. Plus it looks like you've got control over her.

Good luck with the Schutzhund. Are you going to that one out in Long Island? Should be a good experience for both of you.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> For me, it's a little different with people, especially welcomed guests you invite in the home. If she's picking out certain people, somethings setting her off. Only she knows what it is, but I wouldn't find it as acceptable behavior. If this were happening in the home with people, I'd immediately remove her from the situation and correct. Maybe a quick no as the correction or something similar, but definitely remove her immediately.
> 
> Since that last thread, I instructed my kids to come into the home first, and make sure 1) the dog is secured (if no one's home), 2) you at least make sure someone is there to monitor Kira's behavior.
> I managed to catch her about to do it just once more, and I jumped in her face and stopped her in her tracks. She responded well. Since then, the last few guests have been a pleasant experience.
> ...


Yes, I'm going to Long Island. I'm looking forward to it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

And regarding this issue in front of your house... I'm not saying you should have to stop her. Some people want their dogs to act this way on their property. They want a dog that will protect or at least act like they'll protect their property. Nothing wrong with that as long as she's no danger to hurting any innocent people or animals or hurting herself by running into traffic. It's your dog... do with her as you please.

Let us know how the schutzhund club goes. I know i'm interested since it's the closest one to me. Might give it a shot one of these days too.


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## chloesmama2 (Feb 18, 2012)

Personally I feel that you have excellent control over your pup. I think like others have said that she is protecting her home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> Definitely aroused.
> ...


Does she do this with the same person over and over again or is always 1 out of 10 and its a random person? For example...she is fine with a person one day, then two days later she decides not to like that same person or once she knows them and likes them she stays at that level???


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

My gosh-she is so, so beautiful. I really admire you're obedience work with her as well. 

To me it seems that she is very aroused by the cat and is unsure about it.
If she does that with a particular person (with the shoulder hackles), I would say that that person is scared of dogs (even if they don't admit it to you) and Kira is picking that up. That person is giving her an odd energy that she isn't used to. I would have the person toss her treats when he is over but first call her over to you and put her in a down.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Does she do this with the same person over and over again or is always 1 out of 10 and its a random person? For example...she is fine with a person one day, then two days later she decides not to like that same person or once she knows them and likes them she stays at that level???


It was more of a situational thing.

For instance: We could be sitting quietly in my family room, and one of my daughter's friends would quietly walk up from the basement. She would jump up, and react as she did in the video.

Second scenario:
My daughter could walk in with a few friends. She would just look at all the kids, and maybe act this way at the fifth , sixth, tenth, whatever teen she "got a bad vibe" with.
The part that confused me, is when she KNOWS the teen is in the house, and she'll react that way each and every time he enters her space. She would let all other teens walk in and out and about. But would single out one teen, and get aroused, or whatever she's thinking.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> It was more of a situational thing.
> 
> 
> The part that confused me, is when she KNOWS the teen is in the house, and she'll react that way each and every time he enters her space. She would let all other teens walk in and out and about. But would single out one teen, and get aroused, or whatever she's thinking.


Does she always dislike the same teen? Whether its today or next week does she ever change her mind about this one particular teen or does she consistently not like him?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Does she always dislike the same teen? Whether its today or next week does she ever change her mind about this one particular teen or does she consistently not like him?


Some days they could walk right in, without any noise from her. Other days, she may react to the same person from a week ago.

I can't find a pattern.

If her defense and mine, it hasn't happened recently. As I said earlier, I've stopped it from happening at all, under any circumstances.


What I really wanted to know, was what her body language said in the video.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> What I really wanted to know, was what her body language said in the video.


I think you've got a pretty good idea what her body language is telling in the video. I think it's pretty obvious. It's saying, I noticed you and you need to back off.

The real question is *why* she feels she needs to react that way. Not just with stray cats, but more importantly, with people. This may be something you might not ever figure out.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I think you've got a pretty good idea what her body language is telling in the video. I think it's pretty obvious. It's saying, I noticed you and you need to back off.
> 
> The real question is *why* she feels she needs to react that way. Not just with stray cats, but more importantly, with people. This may be something you might not ever figure out.


Thank you for your input.

I agree 100%.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Anthony you have a gorgeous dog. As far as the behavior, some dogs just get a weird vibe about certain people. There may be something going on that you don't know about but your dog is picking up on.


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

robk said:


> Anthony you have a gorgeous dog. As far as the behavior, some dogs just get a weird vibe about certain people. There may be something going on that you don't know about but your dog is picking up on.


I agree, when I was a teen I was friends with some "questionable characters" to put it nicely and my female dog Sam (GSD mix) couldn't stand them.

She was great with my "regular "friends but always barked frantically at the pot smokers who had just smoked and those who had weed on them.

She was one smart dog and I should have listened to her"advice" lol

I just wanted to add that I love how well trained Kira is, and how much I enjoyed watching your recall and "wait" videos.

She is stunning !


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## SueDoNimm (Jul 3, 2012)

I noticed the other day when I saw her pedigree that my dog and Kira are loosely related - Teejay von Wilhendorf sired both of their dams. She has similar coloring and markings to my dog, although she has more black and more compact conformation.

Anyway, my dog is a big baby, but as soon as a stranger crosses the street and enters our yard, he acts the same way Kira acted in the video until I tell him it's OK. I haven't seen any cats around, so I'm not sure how he'd act, but there is one dog he really dislikes and will bark at when he sees him yards away on the sidewalk across the street. He doesn't do this with other dogs passing by, even if they bark at him. My groomer friend knows this dog and says he's "unbalanced" and poorly behaved, so my dog may be picking up on it.

He's never barked at anyone in our house, but there is a friend of our neighbor who has a long, gray beard and he barks and tries to get away when he sees him. It seems like a fearful bark and it's the only time I've seen him afraid. I correct and usually take him home when this guy comes, although I've had the guy give him a treat and I've acted excited when the guy comes and he's been OK, but if it's getting dark or my dog is lying down, he's afraid and I will just take him home.

Anyway, all that rambling to say that it could possibly be a genetic trait? Or it could be totally unrelated, of course.

She's a beautiful dog.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Id say that the fact your dog does not react to everyone like that is a sign that there is some thought behind the action. Reactive dogs just explode at the sight of anybody or any dog, or a certain type of person eg: White man or girls with red hats. 
You will see the reaction before the dog even processes the situation.


I see an excited dog, head up, ears up moving forward challenging the intruder. Now why does she only select certain peaople to classify as threats? Could be the way the person smells perhaps the person is stressed and is excreting a stress hormone, its clearly something you cannot see. I would say this to you, Whenever people come into your house you should supervise and contain the dog greeting the new guests only occur when your dog is relaxed, any undesirable behavior is corrected, demand personal space for you and the guests. This is a GSD, its natural to be somewhat wary of strangers coming into her terratory, just because she is not going off does not mean she is not wary of the guests. It could just be that smell or strange movement that pushes her from wariness to warning. 
Just because the dog saw the teen come into the house, the kid running up the stairs by himself and into the room can be surprising and seen as a re intrusion. As long as she settles when you command her to you shouldnt worry imo. I have dealth with a reactive dog and imo you dont have one. 
As other memers said the fact she still minds you when she is in that state of excitement is a great sign. Advanced training will definitely help you cap that foundation already established.
I think your over thinking things, my previous girl who was rock solid around people (worked with me at a group home) Would still bark at strange people and dogs passing by the property or coming into it. Just normal for a dog and especially a GSD.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony . Fear , aggression. The dog is totally uncertain and is bluffing, hoping , whatever aroused the dog will buy the display , and please , go away. It is fear.
If the cat puffed up , stiffened leg , and popped forward a step or two , spitting , the dog would have run up the steps and whacked into the door trying to get away.
On the schutzhund field the decoy would see this and they know it will take little to blow the dog away -- maybe raise the hand , open both arms wide, stomp a foot .

I know this move so well. When I was younger my brother little brother decided he wanted to earn money by taking on a paper route of a morning edition newspaper , Globe and Mail for those in Canada. Well little brother needed to be pried out of bed sometimes , and other times - oh well, scramble , do the route, get back in time to meet up with friends for walk to school. This is back in the day when neighbourhoods and dogs were a little more relaxed. Dogs would run the neighbourhood. You get up in the morning , you open your front door , out goes the dog. How many times was I greeted by dogs that would come rushing down the side walk to the front door with exactly these moves. We just kept on moving forward and the dog would come bouncing and barking , hackles , tentative , run a circle around us but keep a uniform distance which was just outside of reach . All you had to do is to LOOK at the dog with a hard eye contact and the dog would be unnerved. Ask your post delivery how many times they see this. 

go to the http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...annes-belgian-breeder-spit-some-thoughts.html thread and watch several youtubeys provided by some of members of the Swedish and Norwegian mentality tests . You'll recognize the behaviour when the dog gets spooked -- Go forward, hesitate, posture, repeat -- You'll see it guaranteed .

start off with this --- 

as far as schutzhund , I would do not do bite work with this dog because then you will give approval to bite to relieve an inner conflict , bite to make it go away.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote -I think like others have said that she is protecting her home. -- except that she is not , if the cat had turned and started up the stairs she would have run. 

quote --It's your dog... do with her as you please.--- to a point , but Anthony wants to understand what the reason for this behaviour is (excellent control Anthony)

quote - 
a situational thing.

For instance: We could be sitting quietly in my family room, and one of my daughter's friends would quietly walk up from the basement. She would jump up, and react as she did in the video. --- go visit the site I suggested with the mentality test videos -- one dog , a black dog in particular Carnen .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Go and compare Grym to Carnen on the von giliannes site to show you proper response to fearful (avoidance) response


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

She listens to you really well, no doubt about that, great job on the training! I hope you'll post again after she's evaluated, it'll be interesting to see what the trainers conclusion is.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

This is why I love this place. So much to learn.
Thank you all.

Carmen, I had my suspicions, but wanted to rip that video apart to learn the signs. Thank you.
You've had your eye on her for a few months, and all signs have been pointing to *fear* from the early onset. It takes time to understand, but I see it. When you're as close to your dog as I am, you want to understand what they're feeling. It's a great way to truly enjoy your best friend.  

I post videos like this, not only for myself, but for others to see, and learn from. I think many of us are in the same position, and would like to learn more about the behavior of our dogs. I'm really enjoying the learning experience.

Carmen, avoiding the bite work makes much sense now. (correct me if I'm wrong)...Once the dog makes the connection that biting releases that nervous tension, she will bite to relieve the FEAR..Is that right?

I'm going to watch the videos....


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

SueDoNimm said:


> I noticed the other day when I saw her pedigree that my dog and Kira are loosely related - Teejay von Wilhendorf sired both of their dams. She has similar coloring and markings to my dog, although she has more black and more compact conformation.
> 
> Anyway, my dog is a big baby, but as soon as a stranger crosses the street and enters our yard, he acts the same way Kira acted in the video until I tell him it's OK. I haven't seen any cats around, so I'm not sure how he'd act, but there is one dog he really dislikes and will bark at when he sees him yards away on the sidewalk across the street. He doesn't do this with other dogs passing by, even if they bark at him. My groomer friend knows this dog and says he's "unbalanced" and poorly behaved, so my dog may be picking up on it.
> 
> ...


Prior to coming to this website, I would've said no. But after being here the past year, I'd say there's much more to do with breeding temperament, than most "pet owners", and consumers (like myself) realize.
I suspect genetic. My dog has no reason to be afraid. She's been raised in a terrific environment, with a dedicated, loyal owner. She's been socialized to the max, and exposed to everything. She should have NOTHING to fear, but does.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Go and compare Grym to Carnen on the von giliannes site to show you proper response to fearful (avoidance) response


Carmen, 
I've watched all the videos in that thread. Now of course, there's only so much I can explain on the internet, and home videos, but I'm seeing a mixed bag of reactions from Kira, compared to those videos.

For example, her reaction to being startled is much more like Grym, than the black, fearful GSD. I have never seen her _retreat away_ from anything that startles her. 
Looking back, remember the thread about the teens that would suddenly appear in my hallway? Kira's reaction was a startle, a bark, and then charge to sniff and walk away. 
On the contrary, I haven't seen her pull behind me on the leash in a perceived threat either.
Different fear response?

Interesting thread. Learned a lot. I'll watch them again tomorrow.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is fear aggression and fear avoidance, fight and flight , the basis is still fear . Even the dog going forward as some may do will have a very low threshold for resistance - fight back and will cry "uncle" early and scram out of there. This is actually one of the complaints in schutzhund as it is done now , that the level of threat is more of a choreographed agreement where the dog understands the duration and the strength of the agitation and hangs in. Should the decoy ramp it up the dogs may buckle. Once again go to the von Giliannes thread and read "Vandals" (Anne Kent's) reminiscence of how it used to be (for the large part) for dogs and decoys . 

A dog may appear to have a different reaction , whether choosing to pop forward in a "aggressive" stance, which I see as bluff (signs are there to read ) , or to choose flight, avoidance , which can be outright scooting out of there , or going in to displacement activity such as dum de dum de oh I'm just going to sniff the ground here for a while, which is a signal to what ever is distressing him , that HE is not a threat , just minding my business (please oh please leave me alone). so point --- in a wide open space where the dog has many options and room you may have one response , take that same stimuli and go into a small enclosure , where you are taking an option away , the option of flight , then the dog is forced to operate in a fight mode. A loose dog and a staked out dog will act out differently but the basis , fear, is the same. 

you said " My dog has no reason to be afraid. She's been raised in a terrific environment, with a dedicated, loyal owner. She's been socialized to the max, and exposed to everything. She should have NOTHING to fear, but does.

Anthony ! you got that right .


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> there is fear aggression and fear avoidance, fight and flight , the basis is still fear . Even the dog going forward as some may do will have a very low threshold for resistance -* fight back and will cry "uncle" early and scram out of there.* This is actually one of the complaints in schutzhund as it is done now , that the level of threat is more of a choreographed agreement where the dog understands the duration and the strength of the agitation and hangs in. Should the decoy ramp it up the dogs may buckle. Once again go to the von Giliannes thread and read "Vandals" (Anne Kent's) reminiscence of how it used to be (for the large part) for dogs and decoys .
> 
> 
> A dog may appear to have a different reaction , whether choosing to pop forward in a "aggressive" stance, which I see as bluff (signs are there to read ) , or to choose flight, avoidance , which can be outright scooting out of there , or going in to displacement activity such as dum de dum de oh I'm just going to sniff the ground here for a while, which is a signal to what ever is distressing him , that HE is not a threat , just minding my business (please oh please leave me alone). so point --- *in a wide open space where the dog has many options and room you may have one response , take that same stimuli and go into a small enclosure , where you are taking an option away , the option of flight , then the dog is forced to operate in a fight mode*. A loose dog and a staked out dog will act out differently but the basis , fear, is the same.
> ...


I did ??? 
Just kidding.

Carmen, Thank you.
I enjoyed the information you and the others threw out there. 

Question:

How should I approach her Shutzhund evaluation?
Should I shut my mouth"? (not the easiest for me) 
Let the evaluator figure things for himself?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I obviously cant touch Carm in the experience dept, but I just dont see out right fear, maybe uncertainty her bark is def not a prey bark but a warning. In the fear cases I have observed / anddealt with the bark is frantic, fast and has a tenor that is distinct, the body lower, ears flat, more teeth, the tail tucked or at least slung lower. I see at the worst uncertain / warning /excitement, I dont see a dog about to buckle. 
I have no clue about Scch but based on my reading wouldnt such a dog benifit from working in prey with defence minimal to non existent at the begining. Would this not increase the dogs confidence if done properly.
Also, advanced training would give the dog more structure and routine to fall into obedience in times of uncertainty. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

carmspack said:


> Anthony . Fear , aggression. The dog is totally uncertain and is bluffing, hoping , whatever aroused the dog will buy the display , and please , go away. It is fear.
> If the cat puffed up , stiffened leg , and popped forward a step or two , spitting , the dog would have run up the steps and whacked into the door trying to get away.
> On the schutzhund field the decoy would see this and they know it will take little to blow the dog away -- maybe raise the hand , open both arms wide, stomp a foot .
> 
> ...


I agree with this completely. 

You have good control, it's obvious you've worked with her and you've done a good job in raising her but you can't give them a different temperament you can only work with what you have.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

For a Schutzhund evaluation, they will test her prey drive, her willingness to engage with strangers, her overall confidence and behaviour around new people, in a new place. Maybe look to see her attitude in obedience (happy to listen? or bored and not paying attention?) 

An experienced person can tell a LOT just by watching a dog's body language. Whether you have a dog that loves to chase cats, or will play ball with the owner for hours is not going to tell the evaluators much of anything. How the dog acts during the evaluation, with someone he or she does not know will be more revealing. 

So just be yourself, let Kira be herself, and relax. If you are all worried and nervous, she could pick up on it, and you don't want that.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Thanks for posting Kira's video for us to pick apart! This is awesome, a great learning experience. I too saw an excited dog, not fearful. Which means nothing, lol. But part of what I based my opinion on was the fact that she obeyed you so well, without any obvious discomfort, plus the fact that she looked away at one point - but to me it didn't seem like avoidance, but simply a neighbor caught her eye and she was momentarily distracted from the cat. Do you have a cat in your home?


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

saw the same reaction in a training done by a PSA trainer together w/ the k9 handler of the orlando police department, they described the dog as insecure.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony if you don't mind , not picking on Kira only using the behaviour of her on the youtubey to illustrate points .

Blitzkrieg ", maybe uncertainty , and , I see at the worst uncertain / warning /excitement, I dont see a dog about to buckle." Uncertain is fear , hesitation , plus there is arousal and being put into this reaction without warrant. 
The cat more than likely is static with eyes wide open thinking about his escape route. So not a threat . If that cat puffed up , bristle brush tail , stiff legged started to take steps forward batting the air cats and house and large do , the dog would have gone backward not forward .
In the house , Anthony has provided several incidence which concern him. The dog quiet , and then a house guest makes an entry moving from room to room and the dog startles and reacts . The guest though is now part of the furniture , the landscape, neutral, not threatening or doing anything to draw attention to himself. 
Other than to lift head and acknowledge or go and visit (neutral) to just see , the dog should be doing nothing , especially not charging.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> For a Schutzhund evaluation, they will test her prey drive, her willingness to engage with strangers, her overall confidence and behaviour around new people, in a new place. Maybe look to see her attitude in obedience (happy to listen? or bored and not paying attention?)
> 
> Just knowing her, and the fact that she has worked with an obedience trainer, I can attest that she won't have any problem engaging with strangers. She will listen, but she MAY get bored. She's not food motivated, but if you have a good tug toy, she'll doing anything for you.
> 
> ...


Yes, I will.



Blanketback said:


> Thanks for posting Kira's video for us to pick apart! This is awesome, a great learning experience. I too saw an excited dog, not fearful. Which means nothing, lol. But part of what I based my opinion on was the fact that she obeyed you so well, without any obvious discomfort, plus the fact that she looked away at one point - but to me it didn't seem like avoidance, but simply a neighbor caught her eye and she was momentarily distracted from the cat. Do you have a cat in your home?


We have no cats. Here's the interesting part... She sees that cat while on her walks all the time. If she's on her leash, she's NOT acting that way. If she's out and about anywhere, she's not acting that way. She would pass that cat, and do nothing but give her a look and keep walking.
Just keep in mind, that this may much to do with her "leave it" command. It's very strong for her, and she knows that any interest will result in a "leave it"

The behavior in the video, is pretty much exclusive to her home grounds, and off leash. Whether inside or out.



rshkr said:


> saw the same reaction in a training done by a PSA trainer together w/ the k9 handler of the orlando police department, they described the dog as insecure.


If Kira is leashed, a handler may not get that reaction. I can't honestly answer. But her normal leashed behavior is very calm and somewhat aloof.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> *Anthony if you don't mind , not picking on Kira only using the behaviour of her on the youtubey to illustrate points .*
> 
> Blitzkrieg ", maybe uncertainty , and , I see at the worst uncertain / warning /excitement, I dont see a dog about to buckle." Uncertain is fear , hesitation , plus there is arousal and being put into this reaction without warrant.
> The cat more than likely is static with eyes wide open thinking about his escape route. So not a threat . If that cat puffed up , bristle brush tail , stiff legged started to take steps forward batting the air cats and house and large do , the dog would have gone backward not forward .
> ...


Carmen, I don't understand.
Are you asking if you could use the video for a different illustration?
If so, yes you have my permission.

And I NEVER feel you pick on Kira. She's my subject matter, for a subject I'm interested in learning more about.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Anthony, just a question: When she's on her leash, is she wearing her prong? I've noticed Rocket will behave differently on his prong then on his flat buckle collar. His general attitude is the same, but he most definitely will NOT pull or lunge or bark even, with his prong on. Last night, we took him to friends for dinner, and they have a 10 yo female collie mix that he LOVES. He hasn't been there in a long time, and I did not have his prong on since I knew they'd be playing. He pulled like he hasn't for a long time as soon as he realized where we were. Trying to get in the house was crazy! He hasn't acted like that for a long time, but I suspect he would not have acted that way with the prong on. It didn't take him long to remember his manners, but boy...Good thing I can hang on to him!  

Anyhow, just a thought about what you said about the cat, and her seeing it on your walks.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no Anthony not anything different, just a message to you that Kira has become the subject since she is the one with the behaviour being examined . She is under the microscope as it were. Don't take it personally . In the end the discussion should help you and help others .

quote "
Quote:
Originally Posted by *rshkr*  
_saw the same reaction in a training done by a PSA trainer together w/ the k9 handler of the orlando police department, they described the dog as insecure._

If Kira is leashed, a handler may not get that reaction. I can't honestly answer. But her normal leashed behavior is very calm and somewhat aloof. " 

but in her home she is not -- and you are talking about meeting someone on the road , she hasn't been pushed , which you may experience with your evaluation for schutzhund where she may try to lunge forward and nip or go backward


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> The behavior in the video, is pretty much exclusive to her home grounds, and off leash. Whether inside or out.
> If Kira is leashed, a handler may not get that reaction. I can't honestly answer. But her normal leashed behavior is very calm and somewhat aloof.



Just a thought and I'm not positive, but the leash may provide a type of security for Kira. When a dog is fearful most trainers will tell the owner to work on focus. Get the dog to focus on the handler, not the dogs/people etc. walking around them. When people talk about managing a fearful dog, this is the kind of thing they're talking about. You're already doing this. 
She can be calm on the leash because she feels safe. (you're at the other end of that leash and you're in charge so she doesn't have to be) Off leash she's not as confident. Again, I'm not positive but I think that's what you might be seeing. 
When you go to have her evaluated my suggestion is to say as little as possible unless you're asked, until the evaluation is over. Let the trainer draw his/her own conclusions by watching Kira. It'll be really, really hard to keep quiet, (been there ) but do it anyway.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Anthony if you don't mind , not picking on Kira only using the behaviour of her on the youtubey to illustrate points .
> 
> Blitzkrieg ", maybe uncertainty , and , I see at the worst uncertain / warning /excitement, I dont see a dog about to buckle." Uncertain is fear , hesitation , plus there is arousal and being put into this reaction without warrant.
> The cat more than likely is static with eyes wide open thinking about his escape route. So not a threat . If that cat puffed up , bristle brush tail , stiff legged started to take steps forward batting the air cats and house and large do , the dog would have gone backward not forward .
> ...


I agree that Kira's reaction appears to be insecure and as such is warning the cat off, but I would say that its at a fairly mild level and very fixable imo.

Carm, In your opinion, in relation to protection work would this dog do well in defense after some training / self esteem building. Or would she need to be kept in prey to do bite work? Would she buckle if tested in defense, even after some advanced training?
Is fear not part of defensive drive and what people refer to as being civil? Just trying to gain a better understanding here. 
Would winning against the helper improve the dogs confidence.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Anthony . Fear , aggression. The dog is totally uncertain and is bluffing, hoping , whatever aroused the dog will buy the display , and please , go away. It is fear.
> If the cat puffed up , stiffened leg , and popped forward a step or two , spitting , the dog would have run up the steps and whacked into the door trying to get away.
> On the schutzhund field the decoy would see this and they know it will take little to blow the dog away -- maybe raise the hand , open both arms wide, stomp a foot .
> 
> ...


That is exactly what my father taught me and why I can make most dogs run instantly (and what I think police officers should be taught but that's another subject). 
All you have to do is to make yourself bigger, be certain of yourself. If you show confidence instead of fear, that goes a long way. 
It is also how my father tested Indra when she was just about a couple of months old, to see her reaction. 

You can also add voice. Lower your body, open your arms, make eye contact, add an "aggressive" "SHHHHHHHT" and stomp forward with one foot. It works all the time. 
First you stand still, make eye contact, than you add the voice, slowly open your arms, by then the dog should have already tensed up, either going forward or bluffing and then you stomp forward and that's when they show if they are all bluff or not.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

When Rocky first showed signs of fear aggression, but only towards certain people, I was so confused. I read a book that said to write down everything that person had on, their body posture, their skin color, even their scent....and find a common link between the people the dog did not like.

I discovered the thing that set off Rocky was overweight people and people wearing hats. We went to the hospital track every morning just to watch overweight people walking, jogging, etc and now Rocky doesn't get nervous around larger people. For the hat thing, I started wearing a hat every day and so did my boyfriend and now he is fine with hats.

However, if someone walks by in a sombrero, all bets are off. Rocky is scared to death of those. (My apartment throws a lot of pool parties so we never know what we will encounter during potty breaks)

I know your dog is not fearful aggressive but maybe making a list of characteristics will help, and then you can show Kira more of these types of people and reward her around them so she won't be afraid/upset by them.

I'm not a trainer and this is my first dog. Just letting you know what worked for me personally.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , right on -- hissing noice will do it too.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> That is exactly what my father taught me and why I can make most dogs run instantly (and what I think police officers should be taught but that's another subject).
> All you have to do is to make yourself bigger, be certain of yourself. If you show confidence instead of fear, that goes a long way.
> It is also how my father tested Indra when she was just about a couple of months old, to see her reaction.
> 
> ...


and if they are not all bluff? hehe


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ayoitzrimz said:


> and if they are not all bluff? hehe


When my dad tested the dogs they were always leashed an he had some form of protective gear on. 

On my walks I have not encountered a single dog that wouldn't run. Depending on the size of the dog, there is a way to handle a charging dog and to strangle them off you, if they wear the right collar. I did that with the foster. That dog wasn't strong enough to overpower me. 

If it is a dog that is strong enough to overpower me and I've got the three of mine with me. I'd let pack mentality handle the situation. Sounds horrible but if it is a dog that could overpower and maul you to death, there is no way I would keep staying between mine and a single charging dog. 

So far I've never had that situation though. I had a rat terrier chasing us, two huskies coming at us that I kicked off Judge and that were following us at a distance. My neighbors dog in the road, and five labs chasing Indra at Great Bear. 
At that moment I let the leash go. They were coming down the hill and I knew that we both wouldn't stand a chance so I let her go and run. The raced by me, chasing Indra on the other side of the hill and all I did was praying that these morons would get their dogs. Thankfully they didn't stand a chance speedwise, against my girl. That was the scariest situation I was in. It was after Search Training and these idiots saw that I leashed my dog but they let theirs running towards us. So I jumped out of the way and let her go.

Other than that, most dogs I encounter in this neighborhood are all bluff.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Here is my opinion, without reading comments from anyone else. My opinion comes from successful education in Animal Care, years of employment in everything related to dogs, and a passion for canine / wolf biology and behaviour.

I am seeing confidence and a desire to engage (body language, position, driving forward towards the object of arousal, no stepping back or bracing backwards - even when you asked her to move away, she still pushes forward while giving you the obedience you request). She's giving the cat clear focus, not taking her eyes from it. Hackles and fur along back are up, showing arousal. Head up, ears up, chest up, tail up - a dominant posture. 

I see three things - territorial, dominant and prey... 

A dog looked exactly like her in one of my play groups and ended up being charged and engaging in a fight for dominance. 

Hard to be sure not knowing her, but that's that I think.

She's so beautiful! :wub:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know your dog is not fearful aggressive but maybe making a list of characteristics will help, and then you can show Kira more of these types of people and reward her around them so she won't be afraid/upset by them.


-------- how do you know. It is situational and contextual and has to do with the moving dynamics.

I've put a few dogs into guide dog program (successfully - certified) and sort of chummed around with the trainers , watching them go through on-street training which had a continuing possibility to be rejected , so training / testing.
I followed on the opposite side of the road . The road being Yonge Street , by the newly built Eaton Centre -- extremely busy vehicle and foot traffic . 
I could see , read the subtleties , make mental notes and got it pretty bang on . I had no vested interest in whether the dogs passed or failed as they were not mine , Labs and Retrievers . 
Kira is not exposed to those pressures and demands on a continual basis . If she were the reaction may be increased , stronger , more evident .
If you were to examine the saliva of those stressed dogs you would find increased levels of cortisol and adrenaline.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

She is not fearful,(she's on her property), nor is she confident. The raised hackles is a fear based behavior, but it does not always lend itself to fearful actions. Her behavior for where she is coupled, with the training you have done, yield a good result. Her temperament seems consistent with progeny of her sire.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the "tell" would be if the cat advanced.
in schutzhund when the dog reaches a threshold the dog is brought into prey , to reduce the stress --

most dogs would see cat, chase cat , and you would be able to react as you see the tail end whipping past you (the dog's) .


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> She is not fearful,(she's on her property), nor is she confident. The raised hackles is a fear based behavior, but it does not always lend itself to fearful actions. Her behavior for where she is coupled, with the training you have done, yield a good result. Her temperament seems consistent with progeny of her sire.


I disagree that raising of hackles signifies only fear. I have learned that raising of hackles = all sorts of arousal. I witnessed a male Golden Retriever raise his hackles as he began courtship with a female to breed her, his hackles lifted between his shoulder blades as he prepared to mount the female. This was a confident, seasoned stud.

Many other situations I don't feel like writing about. Just like excitement or strong emotion raises the hair on our arms...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> She is not fearful,(she's on her property), nor is she confident. The raised hackles is a fear based behavior, but it does not always lend itself to fearful actions. Her behavior for where she is coupled, with the training you have done, yield a good result. Her temperament seems consistent with progeny of her sire.


People say you can work on a dogs confidence, but fear is genetic, it can only be controlled. Would you (or anyone) say confidence and fear are the same or different?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> People say you can work on a dogs confidence, but fear is genetic, it can only be controlled. Would you (or anyone) say confidence and fear are the same or different?


I wouldn't want a dog that has not any kind or form of "fear" at all. A dog that doesn't react to anything is just as bad as a dog that reacts and shows fear of anything and everything.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A fear based behavior is necessary for the survival of wild dogs. Mrs K is right that I don't want a dog that doesn't have some fear based behaviors in their DNA. 
Once last thing often fight or defense is based in fear based behaviors. There are strong dogs that sometimes operate out of this but they go fight instead of flight.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My trainer told me that all aggression in based in fear. I assume what she meant is exactly what Cliff said above. It makes perfect sense. If a dog is not afraid of "thing" then they will never go into defense mode. With no defense mode, they can not possibly be the working dog that German Shepherds are.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> My trainer told me that all aggression in based in fear. I assume what she meant is exactly what Cliff said above. It makes perfect sense. If a dog is not afraid of "thing" then they will never go into defense mode. With no defense mode, they can not possibly be the working dog that German Shepherds are.


Makes perfect sense. So the level of confidence is what determines how the dog reacts when they're frightened...is that right?


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I think you're doing well with her obedience! If she can stay and listen to you the way she is in the video then it's really no biggie that she is barking. JMO...But maybe you can treat her for stopping her barking so she learns not to do it!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

fear needs to be warranted , have a reason . The problem with a fear reactive dog is that they react , with fear whether they need to or not . They get overwhelmed easily by a situation and do not act clearly. When they do , even in schutzhund dogs which come out in defense they can , in their mind , be in the fight for their life (each time ) no matter how minimal the fight back or resistance is from the aggressor. They zone out and they loose ability to be controlled or directed . The bite is not calm but frontal or shallow and rebite , rebite, chew up and down the arm . There in is the difference with a confident dog who has confident active aggression. They want control, whether it is for territory , resources , mating partner, self or pack protection. There are fewer dogs of this type. A herding dog needs to be calm and secure and assertive .

Anthony what are you feeding your dog.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

carmspack said:


> the "tell" would be if the cat advanced.
> in schutzhund when the dog reaches a threshold the dog is brought into prey , to reduce the stress --
> 
> most dogs would see cat, chase cat , and you would be able to react as you see the tail end whipping past you (the dog's) .


So, now we need Anthony to go get a cat, have it parade in front of Kira, raise its hackles, maybe even spit at her and see what she (Kira) does next?  

Just kidding......but just for arguments sake and to help educate me.....Anthony does this and Kira goes after the cat and ignores his commands...what does that tell you about her behavior now?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If Anthony gets a cat then he is bringing more trouble into his cabin lol . 
Cat isn't the issue . It's the dogs behaviour with a house guest already made welcome and present for some time . The person moves around and the dog startles. 
A dog that doesn't give himself away and uses stealth has an advantage , the cat never knew what hit him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

My trainer told me that all aggression in based in fear.

--- no , I hope not. Active aggression comes out of very solid confident nerves, the dog feels in power and entitled . THIS is what you want in herding , active aggression. The dog must impose his will onto the sheep to put them into line . 
This is one of the problems in sport these days dogs that are reactive , defensive , but that brings in either the fear aggressive , or the fear - avoidance , which if there is no avenue of escape has to defend . The dog gets so overwhelmed with the overblown perception of fear that he is no longer clear and open for direction and control.
Out of balance and you have sharp dogs . sharp shy dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> My trainer told me that all aggression in based in fear.


Prey aggression isn't.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

right -- as long as the object is in prey mode -- decoys switch back and forth , when the want to develop a dog and they see/feel that the dog is weakening they quickly go back into prey to bring the dog back up.

that is why in the cat example , cat is at distance , probably looking ready to bolt , this is prey , dog is excited and iffy , hesistant, (hackles) -- if the cat were to advance on hissing , posturing batting air , calling the bluff the dog would back away --

active aggression is a desire to dominate and vanquish


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Carmspack- I was seeing excitement in the dog... tail up, ears up..even the hackles just at the shoulders. I didn't see fear in her re-positioning, rather I thought she was caught between behaving and wanting to give chase. However, I'm not all that good at spotting these things. Can you tell me what the tail up, ears up, etc. indicates? Or why those things being what they are still indicate fear? I'd love to be able to read these behaviors better. Thank you!


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

carmspack said:


> that is why in the cat example , cat is at distance , probably looking ready to bolt , this is prey , dog is excited and iffy , hesistant, (hackles) -- if the cat were to advance on hissing , posturing batting air , calling the bluff the dog would back away --
> 
> active aggression is a desire to dominate and vanquish


Which really brings me back to my original question (and I realize I didn't phrase it accurately), if the cat were to advance, how do you know that Kira would back away? 

Anthony was calling her off and she listened. Couldn't her solid obedience training and all his work on her leave-it, mask her real instinct....to go get that cat. 

If she hadn't listened to Anthony and instead had charged after the cat, would that change you impression of her confidence and/or behavior?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if the cat advanced it would no longer be in prey 

I've seen this with young jack russell terriers being tested for vermin hunting dogs -- double caged raccoon sow, send dog , sit back. Raccoon is going to "display" and you watch the nuances of the dog . Decisions are made on this .


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> fear needs to be warranted , have a reason . The problem with a fear reactive dog is that they react , with fear whether they need to or not . They get overwhelmed easily by a situation and do not act clearly. When they do , even in schutzhund dogs which come out in defense they can , in their mind , be in the fight for their life (each time ) no matter how minimal the fight back or resistance is from the aggressor. They zone out and they loose ability to be controlled or directed . The bite is not calm but frontal or shallow and rebite , rebite, chew up and down the arm . There in is the difference with a confident dog who has confident active aggression. They want control, whether it is for territory , resources , mating partner, self or pack protection. There are fewer dogs of this type. A herding dog needs to be calm and secure and assertive .
> 
> Anthony what are you feeding your dog.
> 
> ...



So much information here. i dont want to break the flow of the thread.

i appreciate everyone's input.

Carmen, for whatever reason you ask.......

Kira's been on Orijen adult up until about a week ago. The Orijen gave her occasional soft stool, and a recent bout of intestinal irritation, prompted me to switch to something not as rich.

Right now, i'm in the process of switching to Fromm Gold . She's eating it, her stools are firm. I top it with the Wellness 95% beef, chicken or lamb.

Just curious why you ask?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Zeeva said:


> I think you're doing well with her obedience! If she can stay and listen to you the way she is in the video then it's really no biggie that she is barking. JMO...But maybe you can treat her for stopping her barking so she learns not to do it!


Thank you. I'm trying my best.

Honestly, if i wanted her to stop barking, I could have shut her right up. I've already tackled that issue.
I can call her off anything. She understands.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

carmspack said:


> if the cat advanced it would no longer be in prey
> 
> I've seen this with young jack russell terriers being tested for vermin hunting dogs -- double caged raccoon sow, send dog , sit back. Raccoon is going to "display" and you watch the nuances of the dog . Decisions are made on this .


If this was a reply to my question.....I'm not following you. 

The cat is prey as long as it stays back, but if it advances toward Kira, it's not. 

I really want to understand what you saw, and I didn't.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony I ask because food does have an impact on behaviour . You know there are foods that you eat that make you feel sluggish , others that make you feel agitated . http://www.petfoodindustry.com/NutritionBehavior.html
this is super simple Nutrition Affects Your Dog's Behavior then there is the Vollhard food-to-behaviour discussion and in this months Dogs Naturally there is an article by Catherine O'Driscoll discussing foods and effects . ??


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony I ask because food does have an impact on behaviour . You know there are foods that you eat that make you feel sluggish , others that make you feel agitated . http://www.petfoodindustry.com/NutritionBehavior.html
> this is super simple Nutrition Affects Your Dog's Behavior then there is the Vollhard food-to-behaviour discussion and in this months Dogs Naturally there is an article by Catherine O'Driscoll discussing foods and effects . ??[/QUOTE
> 
> Amazing, did not know this.
> ...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a teacher will tell you of a student , or a police officer of a criminal, past behaviour predicts future behaviour. .There is a theme or pattern.

Kira in the dog park as a baby would run to the perimeter fence line, to the exit , instead of to Anthony (bolt) . She would freeze when another dog was offering play gestures to her , she would bolt. 
In prey there is a constant interaction . A decoy will use moves which provide pressure, read the dog well, and go back to prey when he sees the dog giving subtle clues to that he is going in to avoidance. 
Prey animals use evasive techniques, run away , not confront. If the cat runs away it is prey, if it advances it is no longer in prey mode -- it is aggressive confrontation.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony read up on Rev Graham and his attempts to extinquish any ardour or giving in to tempations through his diets -- Graham being Graham Crackers. Same with Kellogg . look up Grahamite .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My little prey monster dog Cyra never barked at her quarry. The sequence was fast but consistent. She noticed it. locked eyes (and yes, she froze and pointed), then chased..this was all very fast...She was not as stealthy as a cat but she would stalk too if it was to her advantage and she always knew predator from prey even out of sight...we did resolve the stare issue which started the sequence, but never erased the desire.

My other dogs - different body language from prey animals vs predators. I have seen hackles go up when we sensed there was a large predator (bear) nearby....but the dog behaved more like the cat. Slow, steady, measured motion...no threatening gestures (barking/charging).

Is it possible that Kira was simply frustrated because she wanted the cat and was constrained?

EDIT-Grim and Beau have eaten both Orijen and Fromm and have never displayed the hackle/bark behavior described. Cyra was rawfed from birth until she was about 5 (though I don't attribute her behaviors tot he food)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a friend ran a competitive training club (Brampton Obedience) Brampton Obedience School :: Your Dog's Best Friend! for many years, plus she was an officer of the Ontario Humane , an inspector going in to situations from pit bull barns to neglected shy - suspicious to over the top aggressive dogs , plus she successfully produced dogs for service (my lines). She told me that when classes started and seeing the dog in action for a while she would take an opportunity to engage with the people taking a personal interest and play a guess game. She would watch the dog and guess what kind of food it was on . She could spot the dogs that were on Purina or whatever other major breed by their behaviour. Upgrade the food , better protein source and the dogs responded by being calmer . Not only did the body respond so did the brain.

The stomach is called the second brain and there is a connection of tissue from fetal development Our Second Brain: The Stomach | Psychology Today

when your brain is stressed , indecisive , you get butterflies in your stomach 

depressed , nervous dogs , people , don't look as wholesome , have different eating habits 
BBC News - The second brain in our stomachs

-- a training / boarding facility (Mike Clay) same thing -- dogs came to beginning of class presenting certain behaviours, fidgety, unfocussed, aggressive, change food to better plane of nutrition and you could see the ahhh, dogs becoming calmer and more able to learn .

I support a charity which provides shelter and safety for teens that have left home for what ever reason, Covenant House . The covenant is that they must attend class / school and assist in their success to a better future , not just a hand out. Good meals , good nutrition is at the foundation of helping them. 

Food matters . Lots. It won't change the genetics but it will allow for the best outcome. 

It is always a trinity. Genes, nutrition, environment .


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Interesting comments about the food. I had always heard that higher protein levels can make a dog "hot", more easily aroused/agitated, whereas lower protein keeps them calmer. I have not been able to tell the difference in my own dogs, but I have heard it so many times that I can't discount it. A lady once told me that when she fed her pack (I think she had four or five dogs) 27% protein kibble, they would squabble and fight with one another--she put them on a 21% kibble and the squabbles stopped.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I stopped eating meat for about a year. It was a decision I made based on how food animals are treated. I didn't like myself anymore - I became very passive. I missed my previous nature, so I went back to eating meat. Whenever people would get annoyed with me and say, "You eat too much red meat" I'd LMFAO! It sure is true.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what was the quality of the protein , what other things were in the food, synthetic vitamins, colorants, preservatives, indegistable fibre and grains --


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

My two cents about Kira's behavior...

She sees the cat... maybe she's never seen a cat before? She hackles (goose bumps) and becomes aroused. This is fear-based (what is that thing... could be a threat) but the cat is so darn interesting that she's compelled to go forward and check it out. It's a thrill. Kind of like being on a roller coaster. There's an element of very basic fear, but we do it anyway, that's what makes it thrilling.

I love her lightning-fast obedience when Anthony calls her off. Shows how much work he has done with her. I have had several GSDs like that, and it's a pleasure to live and work with a dog who is that biddable and tuned-in. 

I suppose you could argue that she didn't really want to go after that cat anyway, and was only too glad to have an excuse not to. That if she were of higher drive and confidence, she'd have blown Anthony off and chased the cat despite his call-off. I've had a few GSDs like that, too. They are not as easy to live with.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> what was the quality of the protein , what other things were in the food, synthetic vitamins, colorants, preservatives, indegistable fibre and grains --


Good question. So many variables, it's hard to know what is really going on. I have had a lot of people tell me that their dogs' energy went up when fed raw, and that I believe. I've raised my puppies on raw and I can't imagine their energy levels being any higher.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry Anthony , don't take it personally, seems like Kira is providing a framework allowing for discussions on behaviour. This applys to hundreds of other dogs.

so- Freestep " live and work with a dog who is that biddable and tuned-in" -- if only that were Kira . Tuned in maybe but in a hyper sensitized way to environment and situations. Biddable not so much. 
There would be levels of distress , which would come early and easilty to this dog , where you could not over ride her fear to give direction or control. This I think was already demonstrated where Kira was in the house and met one of the teen-boy guests (haha I did write tests instead of guests first , must have been a hangover Freudian slip haha) at the top of the stairs . I bet the dog would not come to Anthony, he would have to go and get her . Her mind not available. 
I competed in obedience trials , later on went through a judges apprentice program. I could sort of tell how the dog would do and where it would start falling apart , right at the entry into the ring. The dogs entered were largely domestic bred from American showlines. Everything about them was diminished as if they were making themselves smaller. They sort of shrunk into themselves. Head carriage, TAIL carriage !!! big one . Movement , little soft steps. Eww I'm not really here. Tentative . Sensitive . Lagging -- almost afraid to make a mistake. Sure enough -- usually wrong. A confident dog would come in and he would have a BIG impression left which had nothing to do with physcial size. The tail would be up or relaxed, have movement from it, not just the little tip. The stride would have purpose , the dog would roll with the punches as it were , mistakes and all . When exiting they bounce out instead of the ear back pull , thank god that's over of the dog who had just completed something difficult for him and now being allowed to avoid.

Remember early on the dog kept on running in panic in the dog park enclosure and Anthony could not do anything to attract the dog.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> *sorry Anthony , don't take it personally, seems like Kira is providing a framework allowing for discussions on behaviour. This applys to hundreds of other dogs.*
> 
> so- Freestep " live and work with a dog who is that biddable and tuned-in" -- if only that were Kira . Tuned in maybe but in a hyper sensitized way to environment and situations. Biddable not so much.
> There would be levels of distress , which would come early and easilty to this dog , where you could not over ride her fear to give direction or control. This I think was already demonstrated where Kira was in the house and met one of the teen-boy guests (haha I did write tests instead of guests first , must have been a hangover Freudian slip haha) at the top of the stairs . I bet the dog would not come to Anthony, he would have to go and get her . Her mind not available.
> ...


Not at all.
Like I said earlier, I post these threads to learn more about the behavior, and genetic traits. If Kira's temperament and behavior can be used to help other owners recognize and understand similar behavior, I'm all for it.

Be my guest.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> This I think was already demonstrated where Kira was in the house and met one of the teen-boy guests (haha I did write tests instead of guests first , must have been a hangover Freudian slip haha) at the top of the stairs . I bet the dog would not come to Anthony, he would have to go and get her . Her mind not available.


I see what you're saying, but I'd be interested to know whether Kira did in fact listen to Anthony in that situation, or ignored him.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> My two cents about Kira's behavior...
> 
> She sees the cat... maybe she's never seen a cat before? She hackles (goose bumps) and becomes aroused. *This is fear-based (what is that thing... could be a threat) but the cat is so darn interesting that she's compelled to go forward and check it out. It's a thrill.* Kind of like being on a roller coaster. There's an element of very basic fear, but we do it anyway, that's what makes it thrilling.
> 
> ...


IMO, putting all this together, I see uncertainty. I agree that if that cat came towards her and hissed, Kira may have reacted differently.

Knowing Kira as well as I do, I see fear and insecurity every day, in lots of ways.
I asked all these questions around here, so I can better understand the signs, and as I learn the signs, I see them in her. Lots' of them.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I see what you're saying, but I'd be interested to know whether Kira did in fact listen to Anthony in that situation, or ignored him.


Kira did listen. I have yet to not be able to call her off anything. Her "leave it" is rock solid for anything.

If I stranger comes in, and she does her "I'm gonna scare you bark", A single "place" command sends her to her mat.
She NEVER ignores "place". I've enforced that since she was a puppy.

I've stopped her dead in her tracks, going after squirrels too.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anthony, you will learn....trust me because you are mature enough to acknowledge what you see. If you listen to those that resonate with what you see daily, you will learn a lot, but more importantly next time you will be much better informed.....good luck with Kira!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just saying this so people can understand behaviour --

once again , if the tide were to turn and she was put on the run - and she ran in panic would you be able to reach her for direction -- this is what I keep pointing out , the dog can easily come to the point where she is over whelmed and she can not be reached - run in sheer panic which has no obedience , no control -- 

example the dog that was terrified of thunder , but we would not know this till that thunderstorm came --(long dry spell) . By this point the dog was given away to someone who had full knowledge of all the dogs many quirks , unpredictable fear and avoidance including freezing and refusing to go down a hallway because a child's teddy bear eyes were looking at him. After the toy was removed, the dog lead back and forth to show him no harm, still days after he would tip toe and then scoot past the place. One day when he was outside in his super delux kennel under the shade of a mature tree , he started getting upset by the movement of the leaves. Rain started to come down suddenly. Dog stood there. Owner brought him in through the split level family room which had a patio feet away from the kennel. Dog dried off , lead to laundry room at side . Baby gate drawn . One ONE crack of thunder and the dog bolted through the baby gate, went up the 4 steps to the next level of the house, broke through that baby gate, ran to the screen door (wooden moc olde tyme cottage style) onto the porch and through yet another safety enclosure , down the porch , down the sidewalk , driveway some 100 feet from a busy road and ran and ran and ran as if that lightning was pursuing him. People were calling , trying to get him, block him. Nada . 

In the incident of Anthony the first time at the dog park something scared her and she bolted past Anthony heading for the far side trying to exit . Other occasion where a dog paused and fixed his eyes on her (friendly play) and she got concerned and ran . When she is in this mode there is no obedience and no biddability. Submission is not biddable . 
She needs tight management for her own safety and for the prevention of a bite at the wrong time .


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Anthony . Fear , aggression. The dog is totally uncertain and is bluffing, hoping , whatever aroused the dog will buy the display , and please , go away. It is fear.
> If the cat puffed up , stiffened leg , and popped forward a step or two , spitting , the dog would have run up the steps and whacked into the door trying to get away.
> On the schutzhund field the decoy would see this and they know it will take little to blow the dog away -- maybe raise the hand , open both arms wide, stomp a foot .
> 
> ...


Anthony Carmen is so right. It is all fear based, same with my dog. Of course my dog is reactive with all dogs, but it could be there is something in/on the person she is reacting too (that we are not able to tell), like the person might have a certain outfit on, does certain body movements, talk a certain way that your dog startles too. Try to write down everything you remember about the people that trigger your dog. All these people that she is reacting to might have something in common after all. I am going to start to write everything down too. Let see if there is a pattern.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

I just want to say this is one of the most intresting threads I have ever read!


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