# sable puppy



## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

Wasn't sure which forum to post this in lol. Me and my husband really want a dark sable puppy and we heard that they change coats so many times it's hard to tell what they will look like, but we have also read online that supposedly the color they are at a few days old is the color they will become after they are done changing coats. Does the parents determine the color of the puppies? We found some sable puppies we like but the sire is a sable and the dam is black and red. Is it possible for the puppies to be dark? They sure do look really dark now.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I have read that the 6 week color is basically what they will look like. What do you know about the temperament and health of the parents?


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

great and great! Perfect health also! We have german shepherds too, but we did not get them as small puppies, they were a year old.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What color puppies are the ones you are currently weaning?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

One of the issues with a sable to a black and red(brown or tan) cross is that not only do the parents pass on genes for color, but also for pigment and pattern....

A sable pup who looks dark can receive a gene for paler pigment, and if it combines with the pattern gene, then the dark color on the body will slowly or even not so slowly fade out until you have a saddle or blanket pattern....

Color is realy the last thing to put on your list - health and temperament are more important - when you find those then look at color - and what you get at 8 weeks in a sable is not going to be what you have at 2 years for depth of color (ie pigmnet)


Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> One of the issues with a sable to a black and red(brown or tan) cross is that not only do the parents pass on genes for color, but also for pigment and pattern....
> 
> *A sable pup who looks dark can receive a gene for paler pigment, *and if it combines with the pattern gene, then the dark color on the body will slowly or even not so slowly fade out until you have a saddle or blanket pattern....
> 
> ...


Not a breeder here, :smile2:, could you dumb that down for me?


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

black/tan and silver sable we believe. That is the color of our dogs so we are assuming puppies will be like parents, most of them are black/tan right now and we have a few that are really light colored sable looks like. We want a darker sable and our puppies are ckc and my husband wants an akc puppy. A breeder in our area has a litter we are picking from. And color isn't the first on the list. With us having a house full of kids of course good temperament is a must. And health also. My husband has wanted a long haired dark sable male for years and with 3 kids and full time jobs and college we never had time for a puppy, we both worked 10 hours and I do not approve of leaving a puppy in a crate for so many hours. Now that I am staying home with kids full time and his work is not as hectic we have the time to potty train and give a puppy attention. And honestly as much as we love our dogs we may keep one of our puppies too, I don't know yet. Kids have been begging us to keep the big fluffy one lol.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not a breeder here, :smile2:, could you dumb that down for me?


Look at puppies from black and tan saddle parents.....look at the parents.....the pups are almost all black with tan points....but they quickly loose the black execpt for the saddle and mask (yes some even lose those)....this is a gene for the Saddle Pattern....

When you breed sables to saddle blk/tans - the sables can lose all their color except for the pattern and have a weak sable color...that is the biggest reason I won't breed those two color/patterns together - you have a very high probability of ending up with washy light sables....


here is a male who was from a black and tan working line male and a sable female - Apache v Wolfstraum Sch3



















see how his flanks and front are just tan but he has a sable saddle??? this is what I mean - his mother was a very nice sable with no tan on her body

Lee


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

That is a beautiful dog too though


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> Look at puppies from black and tan saddle parents.....look at the parents.....the pups are almost all black with tan points....but they quickly loose the black execpt for the saddle and mask (yes some even lose those)....this is a gene for the Saddle Pattern....
> 
> When you breed sables to saddle blk/tans - the sables can lose all their color except for the pattern and have a weak sable color...that is the biggest reason I won't breed those two color/patterns together - you have a very high probability of ending up with washy light sables....
> 
> Lee


Would I be correct in saying that where sable/sables are concerned, that the pups will be born darker, lighten up, and then go dark again as a rule while a sable/ black&tan could be born darker just like a black and tan is born dark and then continue to lighten until more or less maturity?

If my understanding is accurate, then if you bred a sable/B&T to a sable B&T, some puppies could be sable/sable while others could be sable/B&T as well as B&T. Is there a way to distinguish which puppies are sable/sable vs sable/B&T?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Would I be correct in saying that where sable/sables are concerned, that the pups will be born darker, lighten up, and then go dark again as a rule while a sable/ black&tan could be born darker just like a black and tan is born dark and then continue to lighten until more or less maturity?
> 
> If my understanding is accurate, then if you bred a sable/B&T to a sable B&T, some puppies could be sable/sable while others could be sable/B&T as well as B&T. Is there a way to distinguish which puppies are sable/sable vs sable/B&T?



Colors depend on the recessives.

Sable is always expressed if carried. Sables can have 2 sable genes so every single pup they produce will be sable no matter what....or they can have black recessives or black and tan recessives. 

Nowadays, you can do an inexpensive DNA test to tell what color genes your dog has ....or wait until you have pups and know what color the other parent carries. I know my sable females carry black because they have produced black to a sable who has produced black.

I bred a sable w/black recessive to a sable with black tan recessive....I got one black and tan pup, so I knew it carried black as a recessive. If it had gotten the sable gene from dam, it would have been sable...so it got her recessive which was black.\

Pigment is separate - so you just never know - If I could guarantee every sable pup would look like Csabre color wise, I could line people up on the basis of color - so many many people out there just trying to establish dark "black" sables because that is the marketing desirability. 

lee


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

Sorry to hijack this thread but would my puppy be considered a pattern sable? I'm very anxious as to what she will look like later. She's 9 weeks old. Her dad was a dark sable and her mom was a b/t. I know they both carry the black gene because a couple of their littermates were all black.


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

Here's a picture of her sideview.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is too early to tell whether she will pattern out like the mom, but with sable where mom has black....

She is fairly light so she will not be a real dark sable - she could end up with the pigment of Apache - or not....hard to say at this age



Lee


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfstraum said:


> It is too early to tell whether she will pattern out like the mom, but with sable where mom has black....
> 
> She is fairly light so she will not be a real dark sable - she could end up with the pigment of Apache - or not....hard to say at this age
> 
> ...


Would breeding a solid black dog to a sable/sable have any impact on the color of the sable puppies?


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## Dchuck84 (Jun 23, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> It is too early to tell whether she will pattern out like the mom, but with sable where mom has black....
> 
> She is fairly light so she will not be a real dark sable - she could end up with the pigment of Apache - or not....hard to say at this age
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. I'll continue to post pictures as she grows.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Would breeding a solid black dog to a sable/sable have any impact on the color of the sable puppies?


I wish - but not always


Lee


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

If the sire is sable and mom is black/red what are chances of a dark sable puppy? The sire is not a dark or black sable, but his sire was dark sable, and the dams grandsire was dark sable. Do parents carry dark sable genes to their offspring? All of the puppies are healthy and out of all of the sable puppies in the litter we chose the darkest one. Her paws are black and her tummy is dark also.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Is it me or does the sire look like he has the tops of his ears chewed off?


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is it me or does the sire look like he has the tops of his ears chewed off?


Looks like the flies may have gotten to them. Easily prevented. There are fly repellants used for horse ear tips that work on GSD ears. I like the roll on kind.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would think with the tiny size of a fly bite coupled with the surprising amount of pain, that poor dog suffered a long time for his ears to look like that.


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

His ears were bitten off through the fence by neighbors german shepherd.


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

The tips of his ears were bitten I meant to say. Along with the dam's ear also.


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## carahomeister1985 (Jul 3, 2016)

They would jump on the fence and the neighbors dog did not seem to like them being on his fence. Their german shepherd is not people friendly also. They said their dog was a rescue and he was kept in a kennel in the basement all day long and was rarely let out, even to potty or eat. He will run around in circles constantly, not to play with his tail, more of a nervous thing. Does it in the house and outside allllllll day long, just goes in circles and barks. Poor doggy. When I first saw him I thought he was chasing his tail, they said no, he has nervous issues.


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