# Breeding Costs breakdown



## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

Hello all,
I haven't googled this yet, but thought some of you may have something already that would show the how much breeding actually costs. I'm not talking exact amounts but just a general idea. I've seen something like it before. 

Apparently we have people (namely family members) who think we are making a ton of money off our dogs, and even though I have explained before that that is not how it works, they obviously didn't listen or didn't believe us. It is very frustrating because we are a one income household, home school our kids (which isn't cheap), and while we live comfortably (but definitely not extravagantly), things are tight for us financially. It just gets my hackles up...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Meh...if you don't spend money on training and trialing, it can be quite the lucrative business.

In the current market, a papered dog, from AKC registered parents, that has some titles in the 3rd or 4th pedigree...or an AKC champion or two, can probably easily go for $500 a piece. There are plenty of people out there that don't believe in spending $1000+ on a dog. So if you have a large liter, say 10 dogs, you've got $5000. Do that twice a year, you've got $10000. If you want to differentiate from the total BYB, x-ray and OFA cert costs about $200 total depending on your area.

Sure, if you run into complications you can lose some money, small liter also doesn't help...but if you do it the way that your family, and probably 95% of America thinks its done, you can make a nice Christmas bonus twice a year. Now, if you have 3 or 4 bitches...you're talking a good second salary.


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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

There is some expectation to help someone out financially when we really can't afford it, but they think we can because we have a litter every once in a while 
They see the price of the pups but not all the huge costs that have went into it.


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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

I don't know if you are a breeder, but I can tell you that for us, it is definitely not a lucrative business..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)




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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

Thank you Jane 
This is basically what I was looking for..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Of course that is the profit from a breeder that is doing it right. And a bit of an exaggeration on some of the costs 
The breeders that take shortcuts, and don't title or train and charge the same will make out much better, but their program will eventually suffer. Though I doubt those type breeders would be in it long enough to worry about the long term effects.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

No offense, but that photo thingy, she claims the cost if the stud at the front and back. And very very very few makes have a stud fee if that much. 

The problem I have with these types if lists, is it's for 1 litter. All those health screens are moot money wise for successive litters. And then they add in the cost of "flying their daughter in to watch puppies"??? Really???? 

I know it costs money to breed correctly. But I think too often people add in expenditures that they would already accrue if they were not breeding. Registration, club fees, dog food, wellness checks, gas to training. So I guess if the ONLY reason a person titles their dogs is to breed it makes sense to add the cost, but most people are already training and titling or showing because they enjoy it. People rarely pick a breed, decide they want to breed it and then go the extra mile to do sport or show to do it right. The people doing it right are already doing those things, so it seems unfair to add it into the equation. 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I never called it lucrative...but if you get economies of scale involved, it can easily get that way. Then there are breeders that have made their name already, have a respected name and reputation for producing quality dogs, and can ask for higher prices even when they breed untitled bitches.

In that chart...although good...some of the costs aren't there every litter. So...the health testing is done once for each dog. If you have 5-6 litters from each bitch, you've already got $2500 more. Flying in a daughter in order to watch pups? Not necessary. Taking 5 days off of work...if you don't work in the first place, you can't really consider the lost wages a cost of whelping a litter.

Some of the "other costs" that she claims to have...you'd have those even if you didn't breed. So in all technicality you're actually getting reimbursed for some costs that normal pet owners have anyways. Dog food, fencing, dog equipment. The only way to "avoid" those costs is to not have dogs in the first place.

Here's how I look at a close breeder friend of mine...they're going to train and title their dogs anyways. Schutzhund is their hobby, they want to do it in the same way that I want to play golf on the weekends. So...they're going to spend that money no matter what on the hobby, breeding the dogs afterwards (once they've proven their worth) is kind of a reimbursement for those costs, so in a sense, they're "coming out on top" as all things being equal, those are sunk costs anyways and the breeding money just supports/offsets some of the costs of their hobby.


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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

I agree that the cost breakdown is not going to be exactly like the one in the graphic, but it also doesn't take into account vet, food, and supply costs for all the dogs for the year or the costs of new dogs which will run into the thousands.


ETA: I was posting while others were so I see my above point was already addressed..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Breeders need to claim profits and losses, so claiming training, entrance fees, anything else they can for tax purposes should be a given...and most breeders reinvest the profits into their program,keep a pup or two back for evaluation and possible breeding stock. Upgrades on kennel runs, whelping rooms, etc will be used with any profit/remember puppies like to chew!

If they are a hobby breeder, they certainly aren't living off the puppy profits, nor can they 'share the wealth' with family members.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh...and as a tax accountant...if you run the breeding business as a schedule C, report your income and expenses, you can use losses to offset the income that the regular wage earner in your family has. And by expenses, I'm talking the dog food, supplies, vet testing, and if you're doing it right, the training costs, trialing/showing entry fees.

So on top of the extra cash...you're going to be using the regular costs that the rest of us have to decrease your income.

And if you want to talk about "reporting income" there is a reason many breeders like to get paid with cash and not check...trust me, little of it has to do with the risk of the check bouncing.


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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

We will take checks as long as we receive them long before the puppy leaves here. If being paid the day of pickup, you bet we only take cash, and it is *only* because of receiving bad checks


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

As others have said, if you aren't training/titling/showing/working and health testing your breeding stock, the profit margin is going to be much more substantial than if you are only vetting and feeding the animals. Are you the former or the latter, I don't know and you don't need to answer. Usually people that fall under the former category don't have to "prove" much, especially to close family, who would see the time/energy/effort/money that is constantly put into their breeding program. The people I know "doing it right" barely (if ever) break even annually...the people that are just vetting and feeding? Are more likely in the black than the red.


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## Jamie_in_KY (Nov 4, 2006)

I know what our own personal loss/profit is. I know that a puppy mill or breeders who don't put back into their program are going to make money compared to someone who is doing it *right*. I wasn't asking for my personal knowledge what it costs to breed, I already know  but wanted a general breakdown that could be shown to someone to help them understand. I wanted to save myself the work of doing my own write up lol. A visual was what I was looking for and Onyx' girl provided that  Even though some of the costs are inflated, it gets the point across.

Most of the family do see the extreme amount of time and effort that is put in and understand, someone else apparently is not paying attention, choosing to ignore, or just not getting it.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Not a breeder but who knows in the future maybe. There are somethings that are difficult to put a cost on. I have two right now that I am working, getting up early taking tracking. Traveling to train, watching successes and failures. Watching other dogs work, taking notes on who is who and then watching their progeny develop to see what each dog tends to produce. There is just so much that goes into really getting to know the breed. If I ever start breeding, it will be after much investment into my own knowledge base. How can you add that into the cost of a litter? You really can't but it is a part that does factor in to doing it right. (IMO).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You can't make money, even with the male half of the equation. My male I've used for stud has over 20 titles, the majority of which required significant amounts of travel (think gas prices, hotel stays) on top of entry fees, traveling to training and paying club/training dues along the way. $300-$600 one time stud fee (while the puppies are being sold for $1200-$2000), or a puppy back that I end up keeping and just costs me MORE money!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Liesje said:


> You can't make money, even with the male half of the equation. My male I've used for stud has over 20 titles, the majority of which required significant amounts of travel (think gas prices, hotel stays) on top of entry fees, traveling to training and paying club/training dues along the way. $300-$600 one time stud fee (while the puppies are being sold for $1200-$2000), or a puppy back that I end up keeping and just costs me MORE money!



But wouldn't you be doing that anyway? So is it fair to add it in as a cost of breeding, or factor it in to profits? I mean if you travel and trial and train and would be doing it anyway, then it's just what you do with your dogs. If because you do what you do and do it well that someone wants to breed your male, then isn't it a bonus 500$. Or would you not do any of it if you could not breed the dog? 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We'll just assume one is breeding to the SV standard (we'll go the USCA route, not WDA) and forget about all the puppy, pet, or other titles and training and use your imagination when it comes to basic or emergency vet care:

Purchase price of dog (let's just say a puppy) - $1000-$2500
Schutzhund dues - $200 a year
Gas to Schutzhund - $50/week
BH entry - $45?
AD entry - $45?
SchH1-3 entry - $65? each
SV show entry - $50?
SV show handler fee - equiv. to entry fee, $50?
Breed survey entry - $150
Hotel stays for any/all of above entries - $50/night
Gas driving to above events - I don't even want to think about it
Feeding/supplementing said dog - $30/mo?
Hip and elbow x-rays - $120
a-stamps - $130?
USCA membership - $100/yr
AKC registration - $30
AKC 4-gen pedigree - $32
USCA registration - $35
USCA/AWDF scorebook - $10
Repro evaluation including sperm check and brucellosis testing - $150

Now let's say you own a working line dog that cost $1500 initially and never had to travel anywhere, your club trained and had trials in your own backyard, and you're an experienced trainer so your dog was surveyed at 2.5 years of age. You're still minimum $4012 in the hole not including any vet care, other training expenses, travel, or training gear/supplies. You'd have to breed the dog over 7 times for a $600 stud fee to break even on the bare minimum, but the longer you own the dog the more you are putting into food, vet care, training, titles/events.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdsar said:


> But wouldn't you be doing that anyway? So is it fair to add it in as a cost of breeding, or factor it in to profits? I mean if you travel and trial and train and would be doing it anyway, then it's just what you do with your dogs. If because you do what you do and do it well that someone wants to breed your male, then isn't it a bonus 500$. Or would you not do any of it if you could not breed the dog?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I posted mainly in jest. Of course I would do it anyway. I've never owned any animal strictly for the purpose of breeding. 

The stud fee is never really a "bonus" because it costs me money to have the dog re-evaluated, current brucellosis testing, and typically involves some time off work and/or travel to accommodate the person or have the AI done at the right time (last time someone wanted to try and AI I was on vacation so I was paying my pet sitter AND paying the repro vet to board my dog those days while the pet sitter was working, and we never even did the AI because the prog. result came back and we were too late). So far the very few breedings we've attempting have ended up costing me, but I also am not going around charging $1200 stud fees.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Liesje said:


> We'll just assume one is breeding to the SV standard (we'll go the USCA route, not WDA) and forget about all the puppy, pet, or other titles and training and use your imagination when it comes to basic or emergency vet care:
> 
> Purchase price of dog (let's just say a puppy) - $1000-$2500
> Schutzhund dues - $200 a year
> ...



I get all that, but if it's something you would be doing ANYWAY.... Then it's not fair to call it an expense of breeding. Would you NOT have purchased the dog? Would you NOT have gone to training?No titles? Would you not have registered the dog? If these things are just costs of owning a dog, they can't be used in the equation. You would do them anyway? You can't write off food and call it an expense of breeding, you would feed the dog anyway. 


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We posted at the same time!! Sorry. As for some of the stuff you pay for, that should be the cost if the bitches owner. Not you. Except the brucellosis.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not complaining about costs. The OP asked for a general breakdown so I gave one. I've encountered the same attitude from family and friends and after about 10 seconds they realize they were wrong thinking you "make money" off of dogs. I'm sure most people on this forum are in denial about how much we spend on dogs whether they are ever bred or not, lol. I don't accuse my friends and relatives of "making money" off of a hobby if they, say, spend one weekend getting paid to help out at a clinic/training camp for said hobby when in reality they might be spending hundreds or thousands per month on said hobby. It's the same thing. Of course we do it anyway because we enjoy it, not to make money.

The list I gave is not all-inclusive, just a basic list for the OP of what someone would HAVE to pay for if they were intending to breed a dog to the SV standard.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Great stud dogs really need to prove themselves, not only in who they are, but how they reproduce. Then they get used often enough they ARE excellent money makers. 
Look at how many breedings Drago has had in the past couple years. Iron is being used enough that I bet his owner has recouped much of the investment of what Lies posted.
The ones with the big names will get used constantly "flavor of the month"


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

See...my problem with including training/food/trialing costs is that you'll have those either way. You'll have the dogs, you're going to work them because YOU enjoy doing those things and that's your hobby. So any money you make off that hobby, can be considered a profit because the costs mentioned are sunk costs.

I've health checked both my dogs, not for breeding purposes, but so that when they're jumping/running/ect I know that their joints can take it.

I'm sure that if a female I like comes along and the owner asks me for a stud service I'd probably do it. I'd pretty much consider that whole amount a profit because everything I've done to this point, and everything I will keep doing, isn't being done to make sure my dog gets bred and my "business" keeps running, its just a hobby that might lead to a stud fee or two.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The thing is, it looks easy and like nice bonus money up front but so often, nothing seems to go as planned. The female will go into heat the *one* weekend you committed to something else two years ago, or come into heat months early and want a breeding on Christmas eve, that sort of thing. Aside from the money we spend anyway on training/competing as a hobby, depending on how far you are traveling, how much time you take off work, and what sort of vet intervention needs to be done, it's very possible your stud fee is gone.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have always figured it takes a minimum of 3 pups sold to just break even, IF everything goes well. One covers the stud fee. One covers the other costs related to the breeding: brucellosis test, progesterone testing to time ovluation, travel expense too and from the stud. Then one covers the ultrasound, feeding, vetting and general care of the dam through pregnancy and her and the pups until they leave for their new homes, vaccinations, wormer, litter registrations, microchips, etc... If something goes awry, like needing a C-section or something whacky like the Albon resistant coccidia we ran into a few litters ago that required almost $1000 in meds to treat the pups before they could go home, then it takes more pups sold to cover just the litter costs.

Additional pups in the litter are technically "profit". Though if one figures in the countless hours spent researching dogs and pedigrees to find the right stud, interviewing potential customers, pulling an all nighter for whelping, and then properly caring for the dam and pups, socializing the pups, testing the pups, in the end if it were worked out hourly a breeder is making far less than they could flipping burgers. And of course any pups kept by the breeder, co-owned with others, or who are sold for less than the full amount (maybe a warranty claim by a previous customer) come off that bottom line. And I'm not sure how to figure in all the vacation days from work that are involved in traveling to the stud to do the breeding, whelping the pups and caring for them. If someone doesn't get paid time off work and looses income, that would be a direct cost to doing the breeding. If they do get paid time off work they aren't losing income, but they're blowing all their vacation on dog stuff and never get to take a real vacation from work either.

So yes, if we ignore everything that it took to get the female to the point of being bred and just count the expense vs income for a specific litter than the breeder can make money if it's a decent sized litter. Though I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with a breeder getting some sort of monetary compensation for their time and expertise, it most definitely isn't the driving force behind most good breeders doing what they do.

But then there are often other costs that are directly associated with breeding, though not a specific litter, that we wouldn't be doing if we weren't breeding. I attended the WUSV last fall, which was no small expense. Was it fun? Absolutely. Would I have done it anyway just as a SchH person if I weren't a breeder? No, I probably wouldn't have incurred the expense if not for the opportunity to use the event as a huge research opportunity between being able to see high level dogs from all over the world on the field and spend my days networking and talking to breeders from all over the world to learn from them.

A couple years ago I took several days off work to go visit some stud dogs in the SE. Flew down, rented a car and drove all over 2 different states to see several potential stud dogs I was interested in that were all somewhat close geographically, then flew home. I certainly wouldn't have incurred all those costs if I wasn't a breeder. 

The costs for those types of trips weren't a direct cost to any specific litter, but they were certainly directly related to breeding and were essentially financed by the "profit" from previous litters.

And then there are the times when breeders incur often tremendous costs and get nothing to show for it. We raised and titled a female, got her health testing done, paid a stud fee, flew her to the east coast for a breeding, paid to have her boarded there for a week, and flew her home, and she came up empty. Turned out she had ovarian cysts and was infertile. We may have incurred the same costs to train and title and health test her whether we bred her or not. We certainly wouldn't have lost more than $2000 of non-refundable stud fee and travel costs to never get any pups from her.

Purchased an adult, titled, proven broodbitch from Germany for breeding. There's $6000. Paid a stud fee and travel costs for her to go to TX to be bred. About $2500 more. Left her down there until she could be ultrasounded to confirm pregnancy and she came up empty. Left her down the until her next heat cycle, paying several hundred a month in board, to try again. No pups that time either. Instead she came home HW+ despite the fees we paid for boarding including giving her Heartguard while she was there. So then a couple grand to treat the HW. Tried breeding her one last time, this time using an AI to the tune of about $3000 more. Still no pups. Despite her having had a litter 6 months before we bought her we never were able to get her pregnant and ended up spaying her and she retired to the couch. More than $10k invested in what became just a pet.

We've tried 3 other AI breedings, both frozen and fresh chilled, usually at $3000-$4000 a pop by the time all costs are tabulated, and gotten no pups.

While we aren't the most lucky breeders on the planet when it comes to those things, our experiences are not abnormal either. I know dozens of breeders who have been through the same thing, over and over again, dumping thousands of dollars into trying to do breedings and getting no puppies to sell to recoup the costs. Those are all directly related to breeding, things we wouldn't be spending money on if we weren't breeders, and it is that little bit of "profit" from the litters that go well that makes up for those losses.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Absolutely Chris , that is right.
You forgot one thing , which we no longer have to bear and that was the cost of long distance phone calls. Before the internet and emails I had phone bills one time that were almost equal to the mortgage payment . 
I have spent almost a year to locate "the" male I want for my next litter.
Wait a minute a burger flipper doesn't make pennies per hour.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Excellent post Chris. And yes, those costs are directly related to breeding that would not be incurred if you did not breed. 

I am certainly not saying that a breeder doing it right is going to make a lot if money. I just take issue people adding in costs that would be incurred either way. 

I have no designs on breeding. If I ever get lucky enough to have a dog that I feel is breed worthy, my opinion may change. But all the work and food and health testing and training will happen either way. 


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As for whether or not it is fair to include costs to purchase, train, title and care for a dog intended for breeding as breeding costs, I think in some ways it is. At least for some of those costs.

Yes, for many of us we'd be training and titling dogs anyway because we enjoy it, regardless of whether or not we were breeding. But in many cases we'd also be doing things a bit differently. Starting with just purchasing the dog in the first place. A breeder is going to have a much more specific set of requirements than the average trainer. The dog doesn't just have to be well suited for the desired sport, it also will need to possess specific traits that the breeder values and needs in their program, and is going to have to come from specific bloodlines that the breeder wants in their program. It is FAR easier to find a dog who is good for the work than it is to find a dog that is good for the work and also fits those other requirements. That means much more time (and probably money) spent researching the initial purchase and depending on where the breeder finds the right dog it may also mean a higher initial investment to obtain that dog.

Breeders also have a timeline for training and titling that non-breeders do not. Things need to be accomplished while the dog is still young enough to have a viable breeding career. It's no big deal if the average trainer/owner takes 5 years to get their title so they may stick close to home, training once a week and just trialing when there are opportunities locally. Waiting that long to title a potential breeding female is risking her reproductive health and her ability to even breed at all. This may mean incurring additional costs for training and trialing, and traveling to both, in order to get things accomplished in a shorter time frame.

As for health testing, I think a whole lot of it would NOT be done if these weren't breeding prospects. The typical owner might do OFAs, though as a breeder I can tell you for fact that is not very often the case. Even when it's written into the purchase contract that OFAs should be done it is often like pulling teeth to get customers to do OFAs if they don't intend to breed. This isn't just pet homes either, this includes very experienced and successful competitors in a variety of sports, including SchH, who just don't bother because they don't breed. So to assume that anyone participating in SchH or other such sports would be doing those anyway is incorrect. Many do not. At the most they might do prelims at around a year before they start seriously jumping the dog or they might do OFAs, but rarely both. Whereas the person looking at breeding is probably doing prelims, and then official OFAs at 2, maybe the A stamp too. And there are areas of the country where each of those sets of x-rays can run $300-$400. And I don't know too many non-breeding owners who are also spending money to attend CERF eye clinics, doing DM DNA testing, OFA cardiac, maybe checking spine and patellas and thyroid as a matter of course.

So while certainly not all of the costs to raise a dog to breeding age and obtain it's breeding credentials are breeding related and some of that money would be spent whether the person was a breeder or not just because they are involved in sports with their dog, there are often some of those costs that are indeed directly related to future breeding of the dog and wouldn't be incurred if the person wasn't a breeder.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

carmspack said:


> Absolutely Chris , that is right.
> You forgot one thing , which we no longer have to bear and that was the cost of long distance phone calls. Before the internet and emails I had phone bills one time that were almost equal to the mortgage payment .
> I have spent almost a year to locate "the" male I want for my next litter.
> Wait a minute a burger flipper doesn't make pennies per hour.


For some of us that can still apply too. I don't pay for international calling on my cell phone, so every time I do one of my typical 1-2 hour phone interviews with a potential customer in Canada or talk to someone in Europe I just about have a heart attack when I get my next cell phone bill!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I know people with males spend alot of money as well....I have never had my own male that matched up with my females, and I have trained and titled a male (s) as well....but the whole stud fee discussion can tend to make me a bit agitated (for lack of a better word)....the investment in a male is nowhere near what a female owner has - the training expenses are a wash - both owners do this (for the purpose of discussion) but the female's owner has a huge investment in any breeding and takes all the risks!

Looking at the big picture....not every litter results in 8-10 pups...many many come up with ZERO - yet the bitch owner still has the direct costs (not to mention the indirect of training, travel, routine care and feed) of that breeding - which usually run well over $1000 - progesterones, brucellosis, travel to male, hotel or TC or surgical AI....Using frozen and shipped chilled I have had 5 or 6 non productive breedings - one live breeding ended up with a female with some sort of infection who ended up spayed over it....not pyometra either....unknown....so I lost not only 1 litter but a future maybe 2 more.....

Compare that to someone with a male who demands a stud fee of 800-1500 up front and really has no risk.....if you don't get pups or lose your female, as I have! - they have the stud fee for the few hours they have spent with you. You have losses of anywhere from $1500 (w/o stud fee) to the value of 1 - 3 litters of pups!

Looking at the big picture - two different tax CPAs told me no way to even think about running a business with the dogs....I would never make a "profit"......sure, sometimes cash flow is good if I have a nice big litter (8 is the most I have ever had)..but overall, nope, it is always going to run at a loss - unless I sit home and never put the dogs in a truck for any training....

BTW - I am training a male - not to use on my females specifically (2 of them are his maternal sisters!) but because he is the only young dog I have right now - he came back from a working turned into pet home that changed dynamics with a new baby....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would be happy to pay for my breeding expenses and maybe have something extra to supplement a rather expensive passion. Of course that would probably require me to breed more often than I do, stop giving puppies to people and, more importantly, to lower my standards for what I want to produce. 

If I didn't breed I probably wouldn't bother with the conformation ration or a breed survey (why?). I might not go to the expense of putting OFA's on my dogs though I would still x-ray. I would not have stud fees, progesterone testing, brucelosis testing, shipping costs, AI expenses (for my B and D litters), x-rays to count puppies, an emergency C-section (E litter), vaccinations and wormer for puppies, extra food for puppies, travel expenses to the male (whether I drove or fly), hotel expenses, litter application, puppy registrations (for the whole litter), microchips (for the whole litter), wouldn't have to maintain a website............ 

Expenses for 6 litters. 1st born in 2003. Last one in 2013. Total of 35 puppies. I have kept 4. Gifted or donated 10. Prices have varied from $1000 to $1800. 
Stud fees: $500-$1500 (T-$5250)
Vet fees: $30-$300 (per visit so no total)
Travel expenses: $500-$2800 (trip to Germany was expensive)
emergency c-section: $800 T
x-rays for pregnancy: $300 T
Puppy vaccinates:$600 T
Microchips: $700 T
Whelping box: $80 T
fleece: $400 T
Litter registration: Can't remember what this costs. LOL
Registration per puppy (have only done my last 3): $300 T

I lost my rear on the E litter (travel expenses, emergency section, only 3 puppies, though the stud fee was very reasonable), but I got Elena and a once and a lifetime trip to Germany.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Chris Wild said:


> For some of us that can still apply too. I don't pay for international calling on my cell phone, so every time I do one of my typical 1-2 hour phone interviews with a potential customer in Canada or talk to someone in Europe I just about have a heart attack when I get my next cell phone bill!



Land line and calling card will be much cheaper! I also remember when my phone bill was at least half the cost of my mortgage! 

And similar experience with importing my Pike daughter from Germany - but ended up with 2 dwarf pups in her only litter....$10 grand down the drain....

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> Absolutely Chris , that is right.
> You forgot one thing , which we no longer have to bear and that was the cost of long distance phone calls. Before the internet and emails I had phone bills one time that were almost equal to the mortgage payment .
> I have spent almost a year to locate "the" male I want for my next litter.
> Wait a minute a burger flipper doesn't make pennies per hour.


Unless you are dealing with a stud dog owner in Germany who doesn't do email. LOL 

No, if I expected my dogs to make me money I would have gone bankrupt long ago and be living on welfare.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Counting the costs of training and titling should not "factor in" as far as what people charge for puppies and stud fees, but I do think it applies here. I got the vibe that the OP was talking more about people who think that we just buy a dog, own it for a few years, and then rake in the dough breeding it. I sold a dog a few years back for a lot less than what I could have but it was still a decent amount and my family was like "holy crap you should quit your job and just do that!" Then I started recounting what I'd already put into that dog (with NO intention of ever breeding or selling him) and they shut up fast. The dog was only worth that much *because* he was a good quality dog to start with (so not a $300 craigslist puppy) and the years of training and titling that were already put into him. Same thing goes for breeding. If you do it right and avoid multiple catastrophes you can certainly break even and then have some to put back into the hobby like get another dog, take a few more dog related trips, enter a longer distance event, but I doubt any of us could quit our day jobs.....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Chris, I forgot to add the costs of the wormer for the albon resistant coccidia. That stuff is a killer. Luckily only had to deal with that with my last litter. Also wormer for normal things and the giardia that was brought in one year. 

I could add on how many years it took me to find a foundation bitch, puppies bought that didn't work out. It gets sort of scary.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nobody mentioned (I think) the cost of a library , the cost of seminars , the cost of publications / magazines , all things educational.

X rays for me , on my desk this very moment , an invoice for $346.40 , for hips , elbows, and OFA opinion.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And then there are those that do nothing but maybe hip xrays, akc registered have another oops litter, get 12 pups and sell them for a grand each, using a kiddie pool as a whelping box.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here’s the thing…many of the things Chris listed, and Carmen’s example are pretty extreme. I commend both for doing those things to get the “perfect match” so to say, but there are a lot of very good breeders that aren’t doing that. They look at a 4 or 5 generation pedigree, see that things match up, they watch the potential stud work, they can see how his physical attributes and his working attributes will work or not work with the female, and they breed.

Let’s for example use Drago right now. I’m sure there are plenty of HOT IPO bitches being bred to him by some very knowledgeable and ethical breeders that none of us would have any issues buying a dog from. Does that mean that Drago is the PERFECT match for that bitch? Well…kind of depends on what the breeder’s goals are, but at the same time, I’m sure there aren’t many potential puppy buyers that would deny a dog from that type of litter. Like Chris mentioned, potential customers aren’t as picky as some of the breeders on this forum are.

On top of all that, if you involve economies of scale, possibly have 3 or 4 bitches, or more…have a litter on the ground most of the spring through fall seasons (and I know for a fact there are well respected breeders that do this), you’ve got to be kidding if you say you’re not making money. I’ve been to enough trainings to have seen when breeders bring 3 or 4 dogs at a time with them. Cost per dog for travel starts to greatly decrease at that point. It’s also fairly accepted to breed an IPO1 bitch. And I know a lot of handlers that can fairly easily get that done by the time the dog is 2 years old. They could probably do it with 3 dogs (especially if they don’t have a full time job and breeding is their profession).

I’m not saying that many breeders don’t make money, they probably don’t. But most of the time I see the costs or expenses as things that would’ve been done anyways. Or “time spent” is greatly exaggerated and in many people’s (including other breeders) minds could be seen as a waste of time. If you’re sitting on pedigree database, looking for that perfect match for hours, when something that’s 95% perfect is already found, it’s kind of your prerogative. To match it to something in my world...there is something called materiality, where a mistake can be acceptable because it’s not material to either tax or financial statement purposes. Many of these mistakes would be “written off” or just put into a misc. expense account. Some accountants though would spend hours searching for where that 50 cent difference is coming from…and they could easily make the argument that it’s a necessary part of their job even though most would agree that it’s a waste of time.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are breeders out there making money and some are even "doing it right" as far as titled/surveyed stock. They hope to get 1 or 2 good pups out of a litter and sell the rest to the pet market for $2500-$3500. I have a friend that breeds her untitled female to good males and gets big litters where most go into pet homes for good money. The pups are in demand and she uses the money to supplement her income. Different standards. I just bite my tongue a lot.  She can also get $1500 on top of the puppy price if she puts basic OB on the pups, does some socializing and housebreaks/crate trains them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

carmspack said:


> Nobody mentioned (I think) the cost of a library , the cost of seminars , the cost of publications / magazines , all things educational.


Since I love research I would still have all of my books, the WinSIS, etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lhczth said:


> There are breeders out there making money and some are even "doing it right" as far as titled/surveyed stock. They hope to get 1 or 2 good pups out of a litter and sell the rest to the pet market for $2500-$3500. I have a friend that breeds her untitled female to good males and gets big litters where most go into pet homes for good money. The pups are in demand and she uses the money to supplement her income. Different standards. I just bite my tongue a lot.  She can also get $1500 on top of the puppy price if she puts basic OB on the pups, does some socializing and housebreaks/crate trains them.


The untitled female that has trialed but not passed.
But the dogs have really fluffy coats, with adorable puppies.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this "
And similar experience with importing my Pike daughter from Germany - but ended up with 2 dwarf pups in her only litter....$10 grand down the drain...."
and this "I could add on how many years it took me to find a foundation bitch, puppies bought that didn't work out. It gets sort of scary"

to my last post I had added thoughts similar to this , and then deleted them to avoid antagonism.

I brought in a female from abroad . Cost. I raised her , x rayed her hips and elbows . Liked her very much and looked forward to what she might contribute . Bred her . Because I only do one litter per year or less , that means that time was focused on her and her litter . She had a litter and then turned out to be a horrible mother. No mothering skills whatsoever. So not only was there a financial deficit directly from her litter , there was no other litter in the works at all , AND there is the emotional drain --- not easy . The trauma was the hardest to take . 
She was never bred again. 
Later on get excited about another female . Buy her , breed her to a male prior to import , don't keep her , don't keep any of the pups. They were not MY type of dog . Very hyper , too easily stimulated. 
Buy a gorgeous female from abroad , have her bred "there" prior to import . Loved this female , wish I had her from a pup. 
She has her litter , a large litter , with some promising pups. 
Don't get any co-operation in making registration of the pups possible . No pups registered . Refund on all pups . 
She was never bred again (her registration paper work went through).
A year later she passes away from a cancer of the jaw bone . 
Another female -- killer dog-aggressive . NOT bred - 

This is over a time span of 15 years or so .


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Martemchik, if you think a lot of these things are "extreme" and there are perfectly good breeders who do things a whole lot more easily and cheaply I think you might want to also look into their purposes for breeding. Some breed for a good "end product", pups that grow to be successful in specific endeavors. Some breed for the future and because they have plans and goals for their breeding program and where they want to get that goes far beyond just producing good dogs for themselves and others to work. There is a big difference between the two, and the work involved. Just as it is easier to find and buy a good dog than it is a good dog who is also a good breeding dog, it is easier to breed good dogs than it is good dogs who carry specific traits, fit into your overall plan, and who in turn will continue to produce generation after generation of good dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Since I love research I would still have all of my books, the WinSIS, etc.  "

you and me both -- but other's not so much --- 

knowledge is power -- 
__________________


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Martemchik, if you think a lot of these things are "extreme" and there are perfectly good breeders who do things a whole lot more easily and cheaply I think you might want to also look into their purposes for breeding. Some breed for a good "end product", pups that grow to be successful in specific endeavors. Some breed for the future and because they have plans and goals for their breeding program and where they want to get that goes far beyond just producing good dogs for themselves and others to work. There is a big difference between the two, and the work involved. Just as it is easier to find and buy a good dog than it is a good dog who is also a good breeding dog, it is easier to breed good dogs than it is good dogs who carry specific traits, fit into your overall plan, and who in turn will continue to produce generation after generation of good dogs.



Exactly.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Another aspect that some of the breeders have alluded too but not outright discussed that is both a direct cost as well as an emotional upset are wash outs.

If someone purchases a dog for a pet, or even to be highly competitive in any given sport, but it comes back OFA mild, or develops a minor health issue like allergies or digestive sensitivity, or has some temperament quirks that they don't like but can manage, or develops reproductive problems, or any number of things that would mean it isn't a good candidate for breeding but is just fine for their desired activity, it doesn't usually matter or have any large impact on their enjoyment of the dog or ability to reach their goals.

There are any number of things that would be very minor to those people, may not even be a blip on their radar, that would cause a dog intended for breeding to wash out. Putting the breeder in the situation of having to decide between placing the dog elsewhere to make room for another dog to try again at having a viable dog for breeding or keeping the dog that they've grown attached to and possibly now having a house full of dogs that they love but nothing to breed. Rarely can the breeder recoup the costs put into the wash out, so there is money lost as well as a huge emotional drain. 

Of course, there are plenty of breeders who would still just go ahead and breed it anyway because they want to recoup some of those costs, but that's another matter.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Martemchik, if you think a lot of these things are "extreme" and there are perfectly good breeders who do things a whole lot more easily and cheaply I think you might want to also look into their purposes for breeding. Some breed for a good "end product", pups that grow to be successful in specific endeavors. Some breed for the future and because they have plans and goals for their breeding program and where they want to get that goes far beyond just producing good dogs for themselves and others to work. There is a big difference between the two, and the work involved. Just as it is easier to find and buy a good dog than it is a good dog who is also a good breeding dog, it is easier to breed good dogs than it is good dogs who carry specific traits, fit into your overall plan, and who in turn will continue to produce generation after generation of good dogs.


No, I'm in agreement with you...but I think it has a lot to do with what Lisa mentioned...standards. And yes, importing dogs, AI, finding the perfect 4-4 linebreeding with the right 5-5 linebreeding in some ways can be considered “extreme.” I understand breeding for the future, but I’ve seen breeders recommended on this forum, by knowledgeable people, that don’t have the type of standards that you or Carmen are speaking of currently. They don’t go to these extremes, they breed for the future, but I highly doubt that many hours are spent doing research on the perfect stud. Too often I see the stud being within an hour drive of the breeder and the mix works well, it’s good for the future, but you can’t tell me it’s just a coincidence or amazing luck that “the perfect stud” is that close to the breeder.

There are breeders like that, and they produce wonderful dogs, very successful dogs, that people in all venues are extremely happy with and they’re making money. I think it’s extremely rational to say…I’m looking for a 4-4 and a 5-5 on such and such dogs, that is available to me if I spend thousands of dollars to travel to the other side of the world and get it done…but there’s a dog that would give me a 4-4 on the same dogs, and a 5-5 on a close relative to the other dog within 3 hours or less and I’ll just go to that stud instead.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

currently I have three dogs of my breeding that are 12 , one will be 13 first days of Nov . 
One has had 2 litters . One has had no litters -- I left it too long. I was too secure in the fact that I had her genetics available within the program. 
The male , two litters?
All strategically planned litters, eliminating experimentation and need for numbers.
I would not ever deny them anything . They are guaranteed a good life . If one had an eye to the bottom line they would be gone , leave a place open for something else.


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