# Beginners w/ titled dogs vs. green dogs



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm just bored today and starting new threads based on other discussions. 

How do we feel about SchH beginners starting with a titled dog vs. a green dog or puppy?

I think getting a good green dog or puppy is best. You'd think it would be "easy" to learn with a titled dog, but it seems every person I know who goes this route ends up getting another dog pretty quickly. I think no dog is perfect, so when you start with a titled dog, not only are you a newbie learning the ropes but trying to do so with a dog that might be carrying baggage. Or, the person might end up with a dog that was trained totally different than how they anticipate training their dogs. Or, in buying the dog maybe not paying as close attention to the pedigree and temperament of the dog with regard to what the person needs for their lifestyle and methods of training in favor of just getting a dog with titles.

But, I've never bought a SchH titled dog so what do I know? I have adopted an adult dog that was trained in a few sport venues but SchH was not one of them. She was trained in agility and we competed right away (well, as soon as I knew what the heck I was doing). That was all fine and good but when I got my second dog as a puppy and started agility later on, I realized even though I'd titled a dog in agility I didn't know how to do something as basic as introducing contacts, methods for training weaves, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I bought my first adult dog and got her in the end of December. She has a Schutzhund 1. I intend to title her in obedience and rally, but I am not intending to go on in Schutzhund with her.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I prefer the puppy route. I like working with a blank slate maybe because of previous experiences having to retrain horses.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I think it depends on the goals of that person. For me, personally, it doesn't make sense. I'm in the sport to follow the path, not to get to the end. I'm there to learn, to become a better trainer. To get titles and podiums, if interesting and good for self-esteem and motivation once in a while, it's not why I'm into it.

Of course there are other things that can be learned from a titled dog, as a handler, in the polishing of details... but it is not as fun for me. Maybe to have a pup AND a titled dog would be something to consider, but one OR the other, nop.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

lhczth said:


> I prefer the puppy route. I like working with a blank slate maybe because of previous experiences having to retrain horses.


 Only problem is that you only have yourself to blame if there is a problem. LOL


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm a noob and I find it very weird handling a titled dog. I'm not assertive enough to bark a command and have a clear expectation or how the dog will execute it. 
Also, what am I learning if I'm just handed a finished dog? ...other than a few words in German...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks for starting this thread! I want to do SchH but have not been able to decide if a puppy or titled adult would be best to learn with.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Both can be a rewarding experience...IMO
Buying a titled dog, with excellent working desires & strong character is a pleasure to work & train with.
Same is said of a puppy you choose, build on it's capabilities and present a wonderful balanced, finished candidate.....


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

clearcreekranch said:


> Only problem is that you only have yourself to blame if there is a problem. LOL


You can always blame the breeder oke:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

clearcreekranch said:


> Only problem is that you only have yourself to blame if there is a problem. LOL


Yup, but I would rather have it that way because usually then I know what I did wrong and hopefully can either fix it or not cause the same problem with my next dog.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Puppy all the way. A beginner training a puppy will rarely turn out a podium dog (if that's your goal) but it's the best way to learn to be a Trainer. And if you are interested in any long term success, you have to learn to train a dog. Going through the process with Dog 1, will make you better on Dog 2, will make you better on Dog 3....and so on. It's funny actually for DH and I to look at our dogs and see visibly in the performance of our dogs how our training improved and changed and we learned to focus on different habits that were more desirable to us and really evaluated what methods worked in Dog 1 vs Dog 4. Additionally many novices can be intimidated by their dogs. It's hard to be intimidated by a puppy you've raised. You go out and buy a large mature male with a dominant streak...could be running the house if the novices are not used to establishing leadership and working with these type of dogs.

While it is cool to have a dog already titled to mess around with, you really do have to spend a lot of time figuring out how to make the dog tick. And there are plenty of titled dogs that never look as good with their new handlers as they did with their old ones. There are also titled dogs that really have not had the level of training they are purported to demonstrate. I've seen SchH1 dogs who look at the dumbbell as if they've never seen it before- not exactly a ready to go competition prospect.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Puppy. Gabor will say the same. All his competition dogs have been from the ground up, with him.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I was wondering this myself actually. 

I went with a puppy because I wanted to start from the ground up, I figured i'd be learning the basics as I went. I've met people now who have done both, and some have expressed regret about not going with an experienced dog.. those who did said they were glad they did.. I think regardless your first dog in the sport is a huge learning experience, and titled or not may serve as a bit of a guinea pig for the handler. My dog has taught me way more than I thought i'd ever learn about training, and whether I go with a pup or adult next time around at least I have better practice as a handler.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Granted I'm still on my first dog and I got him as a puppy, but I think I have to go against the grain here. I think you have to be a good handler before you can be a good trainer. If you are an awkward, fumbling idiot of a handler tripping on your own two feet there is NO way you can be a good trainer, just as if you cannot possibly be a good training helper to a young dog if you cannot properly present a sleeve to a trained dog. Not to mention, newbies want to jump right in. They want to do all three phases hardcore NOW and even though you shouldn't do that with a puppy, they do. Then of course there's the issue of not knowing what that puppy will be health or working ability wise and if either of those turn out to be less than desirable that is very discouraging for a newcomer. 

Having an already trained dog allows you to learn so much in all 3 phases about how to handle that dog, how to be smooth in your interactions, how hard to correct, how much to praise/reward, the timing of those things and on and on. While those things will certainly vary dog to dog the basic instinct and confidence you develop about how to apply those things can be used on every dog. While the newcomer is learning these key things the newcomer should absolutely be studying other handlers and dogs to learn from how those other handlers are teaching the young dogs and problems they encounter and how to prevent and address those problems. This is how I learned most everything that is the foundation for ALL of my obedience, even in protection. My dog was too young for the things I was seeing but I watched and learned, asked questions, practiced techniques without a dog and visualized how to move and interact and by the time my dog was old enough and the person I was learning from unexpectedly moved far away, I had learned enough to be able to successfully train and handle my dog on my own. 

All that said, I'm not talking about taking just any 'ol titled dog. I'm talking about a very clear headed dog that is actually more retired than actively trialing many times per year, a dog that has impeccable temperament and has been well trained. Realistically, a newcomer is not likely to end up with this kind of already titled dog because they don't know better, so perhaps a puppy is the better route, but in a perfect world this is what I would have to recommend.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I prefer puppies - in all the sports I love. I like to learn WITH the dog, be a team WITH the dog and make mistakes with him. I don't mind looking back and thinking "oh, I wish I would've taught him THAT way" because that means I am learning, adapting and getting better. 

I have much more experience in agility - I trained Midas running contacts and various other things WAY different than I trained Madix (who does 2on2off) and they were both learning experiences that I enjoyed. It gives me a wider knowledge base to train and learn from.

That being said, I am going to try handling a titled Schutzhund dog in training just to see what I can learn from HIM. Not buying though, just doing it for the learning experience.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have thought about purchasing a titled dog to work in schH, but I think I have learned more with Stark than I could with any titled dog. Somedays I may think differently...lol.. but I definitely think I perfer working puppies/young green dogs than having something handed to me.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I think the worst is getting an older dog that has little to no training and then trying to do Schutzhund! They are bringing their baggage to the table, and are much more difficult to train overall. So, with that in mind....

I am learning a LOT working the two I have now in SchH and want to get a pup to train in SchH. A pup would be sooo much easier in so many ways. Now if only I could start getting younger by the day so I can keep up with a pup!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would rather start a with pup than a young green dog, and learn together. I don't think I'd ever want to buy a dog that is already titled(unless it was for breeding, not to compete with)
To me it isn't about titles, but the journey....titles are just the icing on the cake.
I really, really love puppies. I would love to have one all the time/they grow up too quickly. Though the pups I've had have been fairly easy, Onyx was my problem child, and I learned so much that I wouldn't have otherwise because of her issues.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Would you put a 16 yo beginner on a green horse? Probably not, right? 

As for already titled dogs, they can help you learn the routine and teach you, just like older, more settled and trained horses are good for teenagers and beginners. 

Yeah, puppies are great, but honestly, you don't know what you get. It's always a gamble. Puppies are great, but I'd rather have a first time dog owner, own a more settled dog before I send them the puppy route. 

Just because you have a titled and trained dog, doesn't mean you can handle them from the start, you still need to learn what you are doing and with an older and more settled dog, you actually do less damage than you do with a puppy plus you don't have to worry about the health risk a puppy comes with.


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## dianejseaman (Jun 10, 2006)

Smithie86 said:


> Puppy. Gabor will say the same. All his competition dogs have been from the ground up, with him.


What about Frodo and Quasi? How old were they when Gabor got them?


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## TNGSD (Feb 15, 2008)

I think it depends on the person and the dog.... for Haley getting an already trained dog has been a wonderful experience and has really helped her understand the routines and grow as a handler, but then again... who wouldn't love Arros!

I've already posted this but here it is again: Haley age 13 with her dog Arros:

YouTube - Haley and Arros obedience 3-26-11

She has worked very hard to bond and learn to handle him. Getting a dog that has been with another person its whole life is harder than you think. He had a big adjustment period that was different from any other dog we have ever had. I guess it's because he was so bonded with his old owner. Training is very visual to a dog and it took a while for him to understand that the picture had changed and that he had to adjust to her body language. Other than that it's the best thing that has ever happened to Haley! Haley is very lucky and grateful that his previous owner gave her this opportunity.... and he knows that as Arros ages (he is 6) that he will be spoiled rotten and live a great life. I hope that other sport dog owners will give youths the same opportunities!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

One, comparing horses and dogs is like comparing apples and oranges. 

With kids I think it can be good for them to start with an older trained dog, especially the little kids. For adults I think puppies are the way to go especially if your goal is to learn to be a handler and trainer. If all you want to do is become a handler and have fun trialing and/or going to big trials then the titled dog might make more sesne.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I've trained all kinds, titled, green dogs but mostly from puppies to adult. In my opinion, it depends on the dog how easy or difficult or how much you learn. One female, who had a IPO 1 title was a blast to train. The obedience work done previously was excellent and she was a great obedience dog period. So, she was a pleasure to train and the 2,3 and KKl was easy to do, even though tracking and obedience needed a bit of work. I put a SchH 1 KKL on a green dog who had been to five previous homes. Quite an experience that dog was and I learned a great deal. He was a handful but really a very good dog underneath all the bad training, previous frightened and harsh trainers etc. He was 14 months old when he got here with what seemed like a lifetime of bad experiences. Of course, some of that was the dog but the constant moving around and poor handling made matters much worse for him. I also titled a female I purchased as a 10 month old pup. She knew what a sleeve was and that was it. She was a nice dog, nothing to fix and had what it took to be a good SchH dog. So, she was basically a puppy with hips and elbows checked and no bad behaviors to fight against. My female Fly had a BH when she got here. She had some things to fix, like wrapping in heeling and she needed lots of tracking training and adjustments in protection. 

Usually, there is a reason a titled dog is sold and the next handler will figure out pretty quickly what it was. I find that to be the most frustrating, whether I am handling the dog or working it as the helper. When I know, or have a very strong feeling, how a dog was trained wrong, I find it kind of irritating, especially if it is a good dog who has an issue because of it.

The thing with the dogs who changed homes was the transition period. Some adjusted faster than others but they also had to get used to my lack of an accent. They knew the commands but not like I was saying it. The head tilt and tail wag said it all. Huh? 
Eventually, they got used to it and started to comply but I did have to change one command with my female Whoopie because she just didn't get it until I did. That's how bad my pronunciation can be I guess. 

The rest have been pups and mostly that is easier except for helper work...but that has always been an issue in SchH.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

Beginner, here. My dog was given to me imprinted with some Sch. training. I'm the bumbling fool and continuously feel like I'm failing her. The only place I feel good about is her bite work because there's not much of me involved! I credit our helper with moving her along. But we're working through this and if we can overcome some issues, she should earn her BH in a year or two.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I started Schutzhund with Leyna. We started when she was 11 weeks. I have no idea what I am doing and I screw up way more than she does. It's ok though. We are learning together. I have screwed up enough times that she has looked at me like I am insane, but then we work it out together. It has built a very good relationship between us. I am understanding much better what I lack in, what I am stronger in, and what I need to work better with on the next puppy.
My 9 year old actually works with Leyna on a daily basis as well. We do it together. He actually understands how she ticks more than I do.  My plan is to work her, title her, and then give her to my son to work. He is excited.
My son and I actually went to watch our first trial together yesterday. We both have a greater understanding on what we need to do just by watching. Leyna is actually almost ready for her BH (except for the sit and down in motion...still working that one). The awesome thing is that we did it and learned it together.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

lhczth said:


> One, comparing horses and dogs is like comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> With kids I think it can be good for them to start with an older trained dog, especially the little kids. For adults I think puppies are the way to go especially if your goal is to learn to be a handler and trainer. If all you want to do is become a handler and have fun trialing and/or going to big trials then the titled dog might make more sesne.


Actually, I'd get a one year old, almost raw dog instead of a puppy. That way, you do not have to worry about the health and even some adults should not own a puppy. Seen it on my team... they had no clue what they were doing, got two littermates and then wanted to do SAR. One dog washed out already, the other is doing better and on the edge. 

With them, I'd suggest an older more settled dog. Or at least a one year old. 

I've seen many adults that should have NEVER raised a puppy...


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I have only raised puppies as competition dogs. I'd like to try an already titled dog but I like the satisfaction that I get from a puppy and the HOT feels pretty good to be able to say I did that! Plus I've learned so much since my first Schutzhund dog, an APBT, I've learned a ton with Judge and I'll be even better with my next dog!!


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think it depends on each person as to what works best but for me taking a young pup and learning along the way with a good group who has had success at the sport is where I learn the most.


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