# Tips For High Drive Dogs



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Keeping focus when the brain is moving on all thrusters. 

Keeping vocalization to a minimun, not really barking, but yodeling. 

Helping not forget his very solid training and getting so excited he jumps up on me?

Managing his excitement at trials as he feels all the adrenaline around him and it sends him over the top. 

Suggestions I got at the obedience trial. --- 
No corrections just ramps him up more (it does, I tried it)
Coming up with things to keep him on his toes and thinking and not just the same exercises. spice it up every day. 
Proof the heck out of him. 
Make him think about his task so much he has not got the time to think about where to go with his drive. 
Go to every match I can find and keep putting him in the environment until it is very blase to him.
No tug at trials as a reward, ramps him up more.
Exercise, exercise, exercise. ( I walked him over 11 miles and played fetch for 30 minutes at a time several times) 

Okay all you SchH people, what do you do??


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

My dog is a Mal in a shepherd's body  so I know what its like to have a high drive dog. He's also very reactive (to prey items not in an aggressive way) and very very high drive.

Some things that helped us:
1. Take him on a long walk before training - even though for SchH it's common to keep the dog crated before with my dog it's actually better to release some energy and frustration so he can actually think
2. Work on focus focus focus. I set a goal to have him go from wildly chasing the prey item to sitting calmly watching the ball (or me once he knew watch me) as fast as possible. The faster he made the transition, the faster he seemed to be able to "turn down his volume" when needed in training
3. Work a lot on impulse control - wait by the door, wait before eating, wait before being released off leash, etc etc. Got him used to waiting patiently for things

These all helped, but the truth is he's still high strung even though he gets roughly 2 hours per day of exercising (fetching/tugging/running - maybe 30 minutes devoted to walking) as well as 30 minutes of training. These definitely helped to calm him down a little bit so he can think with a clear head while training


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

TG for this post Kathy !  I have posted in the past about, "How to channel excitement" & really did get much advice so, will be watching this post & hope you will get many answer that will then help me/us!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Just for clarification ...... we walked 8 MILES on Saturday! Played fetch for 30 minutes. On Sunday we walked for 2 hours and played fetch for 30 minutes just before going into the ring. I think that is the only reason we Q'd! 

We have done a lot of impulse control work but I like the idea of working on the transitions, admittedly, we have not done much of that recently and I do think at 3 1/2 his drives kicked in over the summer. So my really wonderful working novice dog is now a working maniac.

The cute little guy in my avatar is the wildebeast of whom I speak, he just loves to work with me and he is a terrific dog we just need to tone him down a little bit.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

And the idea for teaching the transition is giving the dog the opposite of what you want the dog to give you. You start by actually bringing up his drive by teasing and tugging (no fetching at this point). Then make him miss a few times and give the sit command. He may still go after it but give a calm no and refuse to move the ball (i.e. playing with him). At first - the second he sits (almost like a coiled spring) give the release word and play a vigorous game of tug. After he gets the point (that obedience will bring the prey item alive) you can extend the sits and downs. Later you can do these transitions with a down, sit, heir, etc. Hope this helps.., sort of hard to explain what I mean using only text


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, you know that I've discovered the hard way that physical activity doesn't really work on the long run for tiring dogs and channeling their drive. The longer you walk, fetch, etc the stronger your dogs become but the main problem is not addressed, the mind is still on idle. Building a canine athlete is wonderful but pretty counterproductive for your purposes because we will exhaust sooner than they will. 

Why don't you run a track with Havoc before the Ob show? It will put him into working gear, will take the edge off, it will tire him as much as you will allow to by adjusting the difficulty of the track. 

Just a thought. I do not compete but a track thing works for me if I am about to attend something important with Anton. And you know how vocal he was and still is 

PS Toning down doesn't work either, just creates frustration. What about giving him an opportunity to go as high as he can? So he will know that there are times when he can be a monster, just not right now. Lure coursing? Just thinking out loud.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Oksana some excellent ideas!!! There was a wonderful field right by the show site too and I was kicking myself for not bringing his harness and line. 

I do know how much you tried wearing Anton out to no avail. Barb G gave me some good recommendations too about breaking off exercises when he ramps up like that but all that has done is frustrate him.

I have never had to deal with such high drive before. Havoc is very calm in the house, settles well, walks nicely on leash. He is a joy but you get him working and he turns on like a light switch. I have also thought about trotting between exercises to keep him moving and focused instead of being more sedate. I am matter of fact with clear commands and you know I am pretty high energy myself. I don't do things slow and maybe me slowing down trying to help him collect himself is having the opposite effect.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> The cute little guy in my avatar is the wildebeast of whom I speak, he just loves to work with me and he is a terrific dog we just need to tone him down a little bit.


 I have never met a show-dog with too much drive. I have seen a few with adequete drives, I have even seen one or two with good drives, but I have never seen one with "high drives". 

What needs to be done with a dog that you describe is to stress the dog in training so that he is very careful, very correct and not nearly as happy as you want him to look on trial day. Therefore, when he goes 500% higher on trial day than normal training days he is right where you need him to be.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I understand this but I am not sure I know how to proceed and I don't like him not being happy in training. I wonder if that is worth it?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> I wonder if that is worth it?


 I do not know if it is worth it to you or not, but this is what I suggest.

Last summer I showed a bitch at one of those "happy-go-lucky" clubs. The weekend before the trial I visited the club to get the bitch on the field. It is no exageration that I had that bitch crawling on her belly and every club member wincing. The next weekend, at the trial, the judge was telling everyone how great the bitch is and how she is so willing to work, and how happy she is, blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, the club dogs, that have never had a half-ass correctrion in their life, looked incredibly stressed.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I've met Kathy's dog and he is a very intense dog, not a typical cuddly German showline I've seen. I never believed in calming down a drivey dog, and that's why I think Kathy is on the right path to turn away from AKC ob trainers advice and ask SchH people for their input. Kathy, maybe you should ask to move this thread into SchH section to get more targeted responses?

Art, Kathy didn't say that her dog has too much drive, she said that she never had to deal with so much drive and that's why she's here for you experience folks to chime in!

PS Kathy, I miss Havoc, he's still my most favorite dog out of all GSDs I've met in our area (no offense to whoever reads it!)


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Ok, Oksana, that is fair enough. Just note that what I consider to be "high drive" and what you consider to be "high drive" may differ considerably. However, my advice remains the same. The dog must be much 'lower' in training than what you want in the trial. What this means for the individual dog depends on that individual dog. Perhaps this dog does not need to be made to crawl in training. The general principle is that the dog must be kept "low' enough in training so that when the dog is overly high at a trial the overly high+(-) the training low= the proper energy. Does this make sense the way I am explaining it?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Havoc is much lower in training than he is at trial and if have to denigrate my dog to the point of crawling on his belly than I will re-consider trialing the dog. I won't correct a dog to that extent. I will admit, I am probably not as tough on him as I should be but I will not train to the point that he is crawling on his belly. Art you are certainly entitiled to your opinion on this and I respect it but it is not mine. 

I think maybe I will ask for this topic to be moved to the SchH section, thanks for the suggestion Oksana, as always you are pretty right on. 

Havoc is a great dog but I am out of my league with him and i want to do right by him. 

When I got him I had asked for the pup of moderate drive suitable for AKC sports. When I picked up the pup at the breeders I noticed he did not look like the one I had been sent pictures of of, his little light spot of fur was gone. So I asked the breeder if he had outgrown the spot and she fessed up that she had switched dogs on me. A family wanted a puppy and had asked for a high drive dog, instead of giving them the high drive dog she gave them the moderate drive dog and I got the high drive dog. He is more dog than I wanted but he is mine and I will learn from this ad I have with every dog. I have very little interest in SchH but I did contact the 2 local clubs here in Tulsa about 2 hours away. neither has ever replied. One is DVG and the other is WDA.


Mods would you move this to the SchH section?

Thanks!


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

Tracking is about the only thing that settles Nash man down. We can jog for miles with a back pack on and that just revs him up more. A good long track (he does trailing, not schH style tracking) brings him down nicely. Maybe do a track the morning of or night before a trial? Playing games like revup/cool down and its yer choice help a lot with impulse control too.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

This will be a huge post as this is a copy/paste of a thread started last year by Vandal. The link was sent to me and I read every post, the last 2 pages where Lynn P talked about Laos and drive capping is EXACTLY what I am talking about with Havoc. He is doing the same thing and this is what I am trying to resolve. 

Havoc was bred for SchH, not AKC stuff. 

I took the liberty of saving some of these posts. 


Lynn P:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Vandal* http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/140966-compulsion-11.html#post1898191
_Lynn,
When you say he loads higher with a prong correction, in what situatuion does this happen? What is he doing when he loads higher? Not trying to bite you or anything right?_

No, he's not coming up the leash after me at all. It occurs in protection more than in obedience (though it can occur in that phase as well). In obedience it occurs during dumbbell work.. stationary exercises like the hold in front position he's fine. Throwing the DB is causing a lot of leaking of drive (barking), you can not collar correct him to be quiet it just makes him barks more. If I break his concentration on the DB after I throw like heel him in a circle and set him back up, I have control. This is just one example. Long down is another area, the more I try to correct him for the barking, the high in drive he gets.. I know this is a drive capping issue with this dog. I'm mainly interested in how handlers bring a dog's drive down to a workable level when they come out so high in drive. My helper went over to Germany last weekend and saw two littermates to this dog and they were totally out of control. Over there they are more or less beating the dogs down physically and it's (according to the person that went over there) making the dogs even more out of control and "pissed" (for a lack of a better word). So I would say this is a genetic trait in these dogs. Protection is worse as he's (my dog) in high drive from the moment I get him out of the van. We are starting some control work here without any agitation from the decoy at all. I just can not get a signficant correction in during this phase as he loads and (as I see it) because more "aggressive" towards the helper. I just wanted to open this up for discussion for those of you that have dealt with these types of dogs.

I've been working very hard on getting this dog cap drive in obedience and I'm just hoping it will within time bridge over to his protection. I love it when people tell you that "she'll never get that dog titled, he's too strong and out of control"... watch me. It doesn't take muscle and strength to work with these dogs.. sometimes you just have to think out of the normal "box" of training techniques. I have a great bond with this dog, and I feel we can work as a team out there. 

Uniballer:
I have seen some people successfully use a choke chain for suppression when the prong makes things worse. My current dog responds better to the e-collar for "sit and be quiet" in protection. It doesn't take much, and it leaves him clearer headed than the choke or prong. 


Vandal:

Yes, I think you are going to have to experiment a bit like Uniballer just said.
Pedro was that kind of dog and had previous training that brought out way more drive than necessary. One thing I learned with that dog was to be super calm, ( basically flat to the point of about dead inside), because he would feed off my energy if I got tense. When he got too high, I would just stop the exercise and stand there looking away. He liked to bite me in the stomach on the running during heeling, the movement excited him and he would start trying to grab me. In training, I would immediately stop the exercise. I didn't really think that was going to work, but it did.

When I picked up my old dog Herzog from the person I bought him from, he worked the dog so I could watch. Did the entire obedience routine and the whole time, the dog barked. Not two seconds went by where there was no barking. I took the same approach and he never barked in obedience when I worked him. He liked to whine on the long down, but instead of trying to correct him, I used a clicker and just started over teaching him to be quiet. Stood next to him click and treat, moved a couple of feet away, same thing. I gradually increased the time I would ask him to be quiet along with the distance. 

With both dogs, I did not try to shut them off with compulsion, since it was what you described with your dog. I had to use other methods and the clicker seemed to help the most, along with that big change in my demeanor. Not sure most people can appreciate what I am saying about that but the dogs feel what we feel, so, make sure to ask yourself how you are feeling before you go train. Probably not good to train after a cup of coffee, if you know what I mean. If you feel yourself getting frustrated, quit. 
__________________
Anne


Lynn P:

Thank you.

I've been going back to rewarding for the correct behavior.... and asking for very short periods of "quiet"... I think maybe going back to the clicker might be very useful as I used the clicker for some of his foundation work.

One suggestion made that I don't like was for me to physically place the dog back into correct position if he gets out of heel position during the control work in protection. IMO, this will probably within time create "conflict" between dog/handler so I'm not willing to go there.

I do try to remain very "calm" during my work with this dog, and believe me if I become frustrated, I do not continue to train.

I've been re-visiting the idea of an e-collar and thought maybe it might be time to introduce this to him. 


Vandal:
I think , if it were me, I would try quieter commands in protection and try to handle him calmer as well. Same thing with your demeanor. Don't come out all pumped up, because the dog will feed off that. It can make a huge difference. Be calm in the way you handle and that will help, along with less stimulation from the helper.
Might be a good idea to have a coach out there to remind you, because it can be somewhat of a habit. Someone reminding you to control your voice etc might be helpful. 


One other thing. I tried the e-collar with Pedro, nope....not right for the dog, at all. I had help from people who claimed to know how to use it but it just kind of sent him into orbit. Used it in protection for a short period of time, even though I had a very strong feeling it would be just what it turned out to be. The e-collar, even on low stim seemed to add more , (pardon the pun), electricity to an already high amperage dog.


JKatsky:
With the DB- I initially had a prey based retrieve. He was so into that DB that he would really get going and lose his head. I went back to square one with the retrieve and EVERYTHING had to be calm. Sort of like Vandal was saying, a lot of what I had to change was me. Praise was soothing and low, corrections were non rewards and even sounding. Petting or Looking at my dog could get him too amped in that particular exercise, so I didn't so that either. We started with just the hold on a PVC pipe. He so much as whined in anticipation, I stopped and walked away. When I started having him take the DB he so much as started and I would out the DB and walk away. I rewarded with food that was less exciting for him. I would have him sit holding the DB and then call him to me. Whining would get him outed and we would not work until he returned to a better state of mind. I would go out and place the DB, and then return to him and send him. It took time before I would throw it again, and then I had to be ready to immediately out him and end things. It was time consuming. Correction was ineffective, usually created more conflict between me and my dog. Once I went back, made his job VERY clear, and very seriously made my expectations about his vocalization and loading clear, he did improve significantly. I found it was less about changing the exercise, and more about changing his state of mind in the exercise. 


Vandal:

Lynn,
I forgot to mention one thing. You might want to consider using a nylon slip collar in some situations. With the type of dog you are describing, many times, the pinch works against what you are trying to achieve. Like you said about your dog, it loads them. So, if you are using it to try to get the dog to be calmer, you can actually make it worse. In cases like this, it is better to use the Nylon slip and lift the dog up and take a little air when they get too excited vs loading the dog more with collar corrections. I am referring more to protection because it may be you don't need to use it in obedience if the clicker is working well. Just has to be done in a way where there is not a big struggle with you because the struggle will also load the dog. Has to be used with that same calm and matter of fact demeanor.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I had a female who could have trouble "containiing" in the AKC obed ring. She had more drive than some dogs. But,I think I might have a bit understanding of what Art is saying also...perhaps.

It is hard to characterize things when this is only a "paper and words" dog we have here. My showline girl was quite flashy in obedience. She had decent drives for it. She had issues in the ring with it also. This being said, she did not possess the drives comparable to any of my workingline dogs. 

The issue for my girl was not that there was too much drive. It was about how she was going to manage it under the stimulation of a show environment. I always laughed because I would ask her if she was going to use her powers for good or evil at each trial. The edge that she had could result in a flashy performance or one that would draw entertained spectators! 

I never made her crawl and perhaps that sounds extreme when written. but, she had to learn to focus on me above all else and to know tht I was most assuredly in control and had firm clear expecttions of her behavior in the obedience ring. Yes, it took compulsion. but once all the energy that was getting out there was channelled into her focus on the obedience, it was lovely and still exciting work!

I have had a number of dogs with higher drive than than my Gala. They likely will not look like they do in obedience though. They do not exhibit the behaviors with containment in the ring also. I haven't had a dog with "too much drive"', but I have issues with a dog containing what drive they did possess.


For sure, I had to work to keep her calm at the show site. We did calm work there under obedience control all the time. In the ring, she was always under caredul obedience too. We heeled between each exercise and I had to do what I could to minimize her excitement. sne wasn't goig to look mopey in there anyway.

In my girl, while the behaviors might require some drive to exhibit, the fact that they did come out at shows was not due to an over abundance of drive,IMO. it was in repsonse to the excitement, the stress, my changed demeanor, etc.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

"I haven't had a dog with "too much drive"', but I have issues with a dog containing what drive they did possess."

Good way to put this. My thoughts are that he is really up and excited. He is very calm in his crate and will usually chill out or even sleep. When we get out to warm up the yodeling starts. 

I am an intense person and he is an intense dog. He is very flashy when he is "on". I have had problems with ring nerves in the past (with Max) but I have worked pretty hard at putting that behind me. Even tho he has very good focus, I think he is cueing in on all the environmental cues out there and it is sending him ino overdrive to the point that he is barely able to conatin himself and just yodels as we get close to the retrieve and jumping parts. 

He did not do this in training and has been (still is) a delight to train. I have been trying to bring this out in training on purpose so I could correct him for it. I have tried leash corrections, I have scruffed him hard and I have squirted him in the face with water. All to no avail, in fact, these have actually been counterproductive in that now, when we halt and do the automatic sit he runs around me. I and another trainer have squirted him in the face for barking while sitting at heel. 

He screams while running to the dumbbell but is quiet while coming back as his mouth is full. Once he delivers the dumbbell he starts again. We have attempted to correct that with leash corrections on his tab attached to a prong. Now he races around me with the dumbbell and sits crooked or attempts to jump on me. 

I am not keen on heavy aversives or excessive use of compulsion. I am wondering if these corrections or compulsives are in fact nagging him or causing him to elevate more. The sad thing is I really don't know and I will admit I am out of my league on this. The folk I train with do not really understand this problem and just kind of shrug in confusion. 

The only thing I am certain about is that whatever I am doign is not working and is in fact making it worse, I don't want to ruin this dog, he is too good a dog and even if he was a poor dog I would not do that to him. I am afraid my inability to figure this out will do just that.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

i had. a hard time gettng it to come out in training too. occasionally it would and I would work on calm and collected with her. If you don't just get crazy with it i don't think You will ruin him. My girl was slow to start in obed, came on strong with this stuff in her young adulthood. By 5-7 years, we got it all lined out and what a great time we had!

How old is your boy?

Wish you had someone really good who could observe and offer suggestions. You know your dog and can work with him to see what helps. Don't do thngs you aren't comfortable with and read your dog. other than that, all dogs take some experimentation to find your way with them.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I think you'll get much better results by doing more mental work and a bit less physical work. While I love having my dogs in peak physical condition, if you don't balance it out with mental work you just end up with a VERY physically fit PITA that can go and go forever! Tracking, scent articles, etc are great ways to give them the mental exercise they need.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't think a person has to get away from AKC obedience because their dog is just too good, talented or powerful. 

I am training my WL boy for it. My friend's Kway daughter has a ton of drive and does well with the exercises. I remember seeing Vyck in the obed ring. He appeared to do very well. He was a dog with drive.

KK1 Lbz Vyck vom Haus Antverpa, Sch 3, TD, PAM, CDX, etc...

Regina makes a good point on that mental work. My young pup boy is starting articles and other exericses where he has to calm, think and get it together. It I get it all fun with him...what a scene!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Oh I intend to keep doing AKC stuff, I like it and Havoc can and does do well at it. It seems once his adult drives kicked in over the summer he became over the top and I think (I Know) I was caught flat footed. I think once I figure this out and come up with a good plan of action we will beat it. it is just very frustrating and I know my personalitiy is not alwasy conducive to handling that level of frustration. I was doing slow breathing exercise in the ring on Sunday while I waited for him to run around me and finally sit. On Saturday he pulled that and I physically corrected him (big no-no)and then asked to be excused. It was not effective so I just waited him out on Sunday. Then I gave him a very firm heel command and he pulled it together. He almost reminds me of a ADHD kid! 

Havoc is 3 1/2 and is WGSL. I am embarrassed to admit that Sunday's Q was a 172, the singular worst score I have seen in my years of training. We barely qualified but he met all the principle parts of the exercises which tells me he is very capable of eventually settling in. His CD was easy and snappy and his utility work is beautiful right now. I don't have any intention of trialing until we get a handled on this even tho we just need another leg for our U CDX. It can wait. I probably should not have shown this past weekend either. 

We go to class tonight and I am going to use a nylon slip collar. I have not used one on him I normally use a snap prong or martingale. I may experiment with his tug as a reward for calm too and play some impulse control games with it. We have not done any for awhile. 

I am also going to get serious about his agility career he can scream all he wants there and it mihgt just help him grow up and figure out how to hanlde the environment and it might not.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Went to class last night and we worked pretty hard on this. He seemed much calmer and I think my behavior has a lot to do with this. We are in a Utility class and there are a total of 3 students. Depending on what we are working on that night kind of determines who gets the most individual attention. Last night I worked on directed retrieving, scent discrimination and go outs/directed jumping. All exercises that require Havoc to move away from me, do something and then come back to me. These are the tyoes of exercises that really wind him up. 

The instructor noted a few things for me. 

1) I forgot my PVC go-out box. I was getting ready to start weaning him off it but I went cold turkey last night. So the first go-out my verbal "Run!" was hesitant and Havoc got flaky and confused a little but he pulled it out and did it. I rewarded with tug which really fired him up but he CALMED QUICKLY!!! Second attempt was better, command was louder and he got yippy. Next time Charles said "Kathy, whisper it". I did, and he was focused and quiet. Charles also said "Kathy, he is a tall dog why are you bending next to his face to signal him? Stand up straigher and give the signal as soon as you see him mark the spot." 2) Gloves were pretty good. I threw in a drop after he retreived the glove he is most confident on. He put the glove between his paws while he waited for the recall to front and I thought he would forget the glove but he picked it up and bought it to front. He had to think more and he was quiet and calm. Havoc is almost ready to add the third glove to the mix so we put the 2 gloves we are working at center and right (gloves 2 and 3). He got confused but handled the "no- try again" from me pretty well.

3) Scent articles were excellent. He made one mistake in 4 tries by picking up the incorrect leather article. I told him no, took the article from him and kicked the right one out of the pile and sent him to it. He was calm and was rewrded with praise. I should have done one more with the leather after that but class was almost over and I called it quits. 

We did our signals and heeling on our own in the agility ring which was not in use. Getting focused heeling from Havoc around his beloved tunnel and aframe is a challenge so I took him into the warm up ring instead. 

I changed collars on him and went with a nylon snap around slip or as Leerburg calls a dominant dog collar that sits higher on the neck and fits more snuggly then a standard slip collar. It is more efficient and precise when making a collar correction. It also requires less pressure from me. 

He started to yip when I halted and I gave him a slight collar correction paired with quiet and he sat immediately. He tried swinging wide a few times and I turned my wrist to bring him in. Those were the last corrections he needed and he worked very hard to be in position. We went back tot eh agility ring and did a lot of pivots and turns in place. He has equated those with an upcoming retrieve and began whining. I corrected for that and when I got quite I rewarded with with access to the tunnel. 

Seemed to work, he was better but not perfect. He is stressing some but I am not sure if it is excitement/stress or stress at fear of being wrong. He does not like to be wrong, he worries about that and after watching carefully last night and Charles' observations I think it is a combination. If he is afraid of being wrong he avoids, he took off with the worng scent article after I told him no but when I went to get it he finally stopped and let me have it. I think he may not really understand what the correction means. 

We did a lot of impulse control games with his tug, lots of outs, sits and downs, relesae to the tug, out etc. We did a few drop on recalls with me holding the tug out to side, putting it on the floor next to me etc. He was very good with this but we have done a lot of this before.

I also really was not even aware that my voice had changed that much during the go-out exercise above. So if I am not really aware of it in training I am sure I am doing it in the ring too and do not realize it. Charles said it was not a big difference but the dog noticed it and it affected him. Charles actually had his attention drawn to it by watching the dog, that is how subtle it was. SO I need to work on my voice more. Havoc is extremely handler sensitive, more than I thought he was. Overall I am happy with what we accompished last night. His obedience was snappy and his attitude was great. As always, the handler needs to accomadate the dog's needs to be successful so I have some accomadating to do I think.
_________________________


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Interesting discussion Kathy, I hope you continue updating it. I have a screamer too!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Hey, Kathy! Very interesting thread. I will watch for continued updates from you.

When Tanner and I first started working with Heidi Theis she had us switch to the nylon slip collar, too. She was very precise on sizing it, too. She went for a much smaller size/shorter length than I would have ever considered. She wanted it sitting up high on his neck.

My results were pretty good.
Sheilah


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I do like this collar, I had good results with it THursday but yesterday when I took him out to track and train, I forgot it. However all we did was rythym heeling and worked on some pivots in place. I am also practicing using my show ring face in training and rewarding silence. No matter how you slice it training and the ring are different, I act different, more business like and he senses this. He is very intuitive. So I am trying to put my business face on and make it normal for him to see. 

BTW he ran a kick butt track and I think we are almost ready to certify- again. Last time it expired as I was in Iraq.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

The tracking club had thier first tracking class yesterday. I was invited to help out in exchange for some blind tracks for Havoc. It wsa good!

The wife of the tracking judge/instructor ia a very accomplished obedience person adn she has been at a few trials I have been to. She said she does not know me well or the Havoc either but her observation is that although I may not feel nervous, I am still anticipate the performance and I am intense. She feels I am the catalyst here. 

I knew there was definitley some interaction going on here with me at the center of it. I think with my more intense emotion and the more intense atmosphere we are on a crash course. 

So she invited me to join her Utility obedience class at another training center. I sent my registration in today and I hope to get in before it fills. She may have some good pointers for me.


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