# E-collar using Lou Castle's methods



## dpc134

I have a question regarding Lou Castle's e-collar training. I read through all of his training instructions on his website and I think his methods are very well written and will work well. 
However, I am a little confused on how to use this type of e-collar training with a dog that already knows and understands the commands. Since Lou is explaining how to teach "recall, sit, down" using the e-collar, how do I use it to reinforce the commands on a dog that already knows "recall, sit, down"?
Also, is the e-collar ever used as a positive punishment tool to reinforce / correct the dog if he/she disobeys a command (after the command is learned)?


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## David Winners

I would PM Lou. He is active on this forum.


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## Deno

I am not sure what Lou would say about this, but to me it's just common sense.

I used the e-collar to tweak the response time to known commands.

Dex knows to come the second I call him no matter what, same thing with sit, down, stay and no. 

With recall, It was just a matter of giving him a little shock if he hesitated coming when called.

Same thing with everything else, he knows if i say no he better stop WHATEVER he is doing that instant.

It was the same thing with stay. I would hide and watch him and if he moved I gave him a little tingle.

Dex was made sharp as a razor in every area in no time flat with very few corrections.

I stopped him from chasing my motor cycle and getting in the garbage with about 2 corrections each.

I can't remember the last time Dex had the collar on, if he ever needs any kind of a refresher course all I have to do is show him the transmitter. 

The e-collar is an amazing tool whose main enemy is ignorance.

I had to rant.

Short and simple answer to your question is, if he ignores a known command you zap him.

It won't take many and the results are amazing.


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## David Winners

Deno said:


> I am not sure what Lou would say about this, but to me it's just common sense.
> 
> I used the e-collar to tweak the response time to known commands.
> 
> Dex knows to come the second I call him no matter what, same thing with sit, down, stay and no.
> 
> With recall, It was just a matter of giving him a little shock if he hesitated coming when called.
> 
> Same thing with everything else, he knows if i say no he better stop WHATEVER he is doing that instant.
> 
> It was the same thing with stay. I would hide and watch him and if he moved I gave him a little tingle.
> 
> Dex was made sharp as a razor in every area in no time flat with very few corrections.
> 
> I stopped him from chasing my motor cycle and getting in the garbage with about 2 corrections each.
> 
> I can't remember the last time Dex had the collar on, if he ever needs any kind of a refresher course all I have to do is show him the transmitter.
> 
> The e-collar is an amazing tool whose main enemy is ignorance.
> 
> I had to rant.
> 
> Short and simple answer to your question is, if he ignores a known command you zap him.
> 
> It won't take many and the results are amazing.


This is not the same protocol as Lou Castle. Common sense and operant conditioning are not the same in a complex scenario. You skipped finding a working level for the dog, teaching the dog how to turn the collar off, and invited the chance for superstitious associations. These are all important parts of Lou's training methods. 

Your methods have worked for you with one dog. Lou has trained hundreds. If you don't understand his methods, I would refrain from giving advice on them. Training with his system from the start avoids certain problems that may develop with improper stimulation. 

To the OP. 

The information you are after is on the web site. Start with finding the dogs working level and then read the recall page carefully. I can post the sections here that pertain to your question when I get back to my computer. I still think you should just pm Lou. He will answer all your questions in detail.

David Winners


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## llombardo

I had a nice conversation with Lou about my dog when I first got him. He spent a good amount of time on the phone with me. He was more then willing to explain things.


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## David Winners

From Teaching the Recall on the Lou Castle web site.



> Many people will be working with dogs that already know the recall, some of them quite well. They're going to the Ecollar for reliability, or because they're having problems with the recall working well at a distance, or in the face of high level distractions. My recommendation is to teach the recall with the Ecollar, as if the dog had never received any training at all, by using the following protocol. It's not that you're teaching the recall to those dogs, it's that you're teaching the dog what the stim means, and that the dog is in charge of when it starts, and, most importantly, when it stops.



In looking through the forum on his site, the standard answer for working with a previously trained dog is to follow the steps in the protocol as they are written. It eliminates confusion in the dog.


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## boomer11

Deno said:


> I am not sure what Lou would say about this, but to me it's just common sense.
> 
> I used the e-collar to tweak the response time to known commands.
> 
> Dex knows to come the second I call him no matter what, same thing with sit, down, stay and no.
> 
> With recall, It was just a matter of giving him a little shock if he hesitated coming when called.
> 
> Same thing with everything else, he knows if i say no he better stop WHATEVER he is doing that instant.
> U
> It was the same thing with stay. I would hide and watch him and if he moved I gave him a little tingle.
> 
> Dex was made sharp as a razor in every area in no time flat with very few corrections.
> 
> I stopped him from chasing my motor cycle and getting in the garbage with about 2 corrections each.
> 
> I can't remember the last time Dex had the collar on, if he ever needs any kind of a refresher course all I have to do is show him the transmitter.
> 
> The e-collar is an amazing tool whose main enemy is ignorance.
> 
> I had to rant.
> 
> Short and simple answer to your question is, if he ignores a known command you zap him.
> 
> It won't take many and the results are amazing.


Lol this is nothing like Lou castles method. You are using the collar as a tool for punishing the dog for not listening. This is the same "ignorant" thinking that gives ecollars a bad name and ruins dogs. So you're right, the main enemy is ignorance


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## dpc134

David Winners said:


> From Teaching the Recall on the Lou Castle web site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In looking through the forum on his site, the standard answer for working with a previously trained dog is to follow the steps in the protocol as they are written. It eliminates confusion in the dog.


Dave,
Thanks for the help. I did see the protocols for using his methods on a trained dog, but I was confused as to "why", instead of just reinforcing the commands by using the e-collar when the dog doesnt comply (like what Deno was saying). I understand that there is more to dog training than just common sense, so I always ask "why". 
So I did PM Lou, and he responded with "Start as if the dog knew nothing and work through the protocols exactly as they're written. Think of the Ecollar as a new language. You have to teach the dog what everything means." The dog needs to understand how to turn off the e-collar and get accustomed to how it works. I am going to follow Lou's advice and follows his protocols as written on his website.

Thanks again!


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## Deno

LOL, your reading comprehension is not all that, ignorance is bliss. 

My "ignorant" thinking has resulted in a dog that does what I tell him 99.9 % of the time under extreme conditions.

It's hard to argue with success, but knock yourself out.

Without knowing anything about you, I would wager my dog is better trained than yours.


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## NancyJ

Well, 99.9% compliance may be great for some dogs but for a working dog you want a certain amount of ability for the dog to work without 100% direction. Maybe there are different goals. I have been very hesitant with ecollars because I have seem some dogs who were more like robots.

I don't know enough about ecollar training to play into a discussion other than knowing Lou seems to help anyone and everyone who calls him and makes his methods known freely (no big secret you need to pay out the nose to join the club) but have seen enough to know that too heavy handed can result in a dog that has become too focused and too handler dependent.


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## NancyJ

Deno, one thing (I went back and looked). You proclaim your expertise on the ecollar by training *one *"big bad alpha male" to stay out of the garbage with an collar? I believe it important to the OP to know this so the relative significance of the post can be considered. 

I trained one punk to quick chasing game with the collar (use Lou Castle Low Stim methods) and saw her later make her own decision not to chase game. She learned from it. I learned the hard way that a very high stim meant nothing to this little monster when she was in full drive. I got lucky; could have shut her down had she been a different dog..........One dog did not make me an expert with the ecollar. That is why I never give advice on how to use them. Try dozens or hundreds and training other people. THAT makes you an expert.


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## Deno

I never said what I did was anything like Lou's method, I never ran into any complex scenarios with Dex.

It was a simple matter of tweaking what he had been trained.

Dex never bit the garbage can, motorcycle or either of the cats, no problem at all with superstitious associations.

Dex learned quick to obey my every command, very few corrections were ever needed.

It's true I have only trained one dog like this, and it's possible I may be luckier than smart, but the fact is I have 

a dog that I would venture to say is in the 99 percentile. I have glanced at Lou's site but I never really got into it.

I am sure he is an outstanding trainer with the e-collar and I am sure I might be able to learn something. 

In no way do I say my method is better than Lou's or anybody else's, I just say my way was simple and it worked fantastic.

It only stands to reason that if the way I trained Dex worked for us, it might work for someone else.

You can refrain from telling me what to refrain from.


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## NancyJ

I was just sharing for the sake of the OP. Dogs respond VERY differently to the ecollar. For some dogs, like yours, a correction like that works. Others can be made fearful of an object nearby. Others can redirect aggression on something nearby, and yet others can shut down.

Nobody told you what you could and could not say.


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## David Winners

Deno, he OP is about specific training of which you are ignorant. Your answer goes against the methods being used. There is nothing you can say that is relevant.

No one is telling you that you did the wrong thing. You are being told that you know nothing about the subject, therefore your advice is incorrect.

David Winners


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## Deno

I really don't understand the 1st part of the 1st paragraph, but I am going to play with it.

100% compliance may be possible, but not probably by any means. 

There is only one thing Dex will do 100% of the time without direction, that's guard the inside of the house

An e-collar is nothing to be afraid of, it's a tool. 

With good common sense and the ability to train dogs in the first place,

an e-collar can take a dog to a whole "nother" level.


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## Deno

OK so I am ignorant of the specific training. 

What is relevant is the fact that different dogs may be trained differently,

and the way I trained Dex worked perfect. 

To be ignorant of a subject is one thing, to deny success is another.


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## Deno

I never said I was an expert, I just explained what worked for me and

suggested it might work elsewhere.

Dex is one big bad alpha male and I sure am proud of him. 

A happier, more well adjusted dog doesn't exist.


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## David Winners

Don't know who your reply was to.

What is this whole "nuther" level you speak of. LE, MIL, SAR, IPO, PSA, FR, MR... which level do you train to?

David Winners


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## Deno

I'm sure you can get it figured out.

You say nuther, I say nother.

No fancy titles here, just a real world dog that is all that.

I would love to go into all the details, but I won't.


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## David Winners

Thanks

David Winners


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## boomer11

no one said your dog isnt well trained but like ALL training tools, each dog respond differently to them. heck the same dog responds different depending on their drive. i know the level of stim my dog feels while just walking around he wouldnt even feel while in drive. each dogs pain sensitivity is different. each dog's mental state is different. to say its common sense to just basically "yank and crank" is pretty ignorant. the ecollar is very effective but it has the steepest learning curve out of all the training tools therefore the hardest to give advice on (especially over the internet)


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## Deno

"yank and crank" - again, your reading comprehension is either lacking or you are purposely twisting what I have said. Some people seem to over complicate everything. As far as a steep learning curve goes, the e-collar is nothing more than a tool that delivers a remote correction of different degrees. If you have enough common sense to know when your dog needs a correction, you can use an e-collar.


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## David Winners

Deno said:


> the e-collar is nothing more than a tool that delivers a remote correction of different degrees. If you have enough common sense to know when your dog needs a correction, you can use an e-collar.


This statement shows how little you know about the use of the e-collar.


David Winners


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## Deno

People like you never cease to amaze me.

I bet it's complicated for you to put your pants on.


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## NancyJ

The link below was a good thread. There are some free Michael Ellis videos on youtube (they are just teasers but one talks about escape training) I was surprised to learn Ellis basically uses the approach Lou Castle has for YEARS (and Lou has always credited Don Yarnall) 

Surprise was because Ed Frawley (Leerburg Video Productions) was so vehemently opposed to Castle methods and used the old "shock collar" approach championed by Deno (in this and other threads)...of course I remember when Ed Frawley poo poo'd marker training then embraced it. Glad to see the approach has changed over there.

For anyone (Other than Deno and his "big bad alpha dog" and "your dog can see the shrink later" on another thread......) grabbing these things and shocking behaviors out of their dogs with high stim...might work but it can really backfire. That is all you need to know. 

Deno, the OP specifically asked about Lou Castle methods. So why not just drop it as what you are referring to is another old school approach that has nothing to do with Lou Castle.

Oh superstitious associations. Here is one for you. I hat a hot wire on my fence to keep the dogs from climbing out. Dad, being my dad just HAD to touch the wire. Toby was actually touching him when he did and took the shock through my dad. Every time he saw my father from then on, he scurried away. It took a long time for him to even be able to share a room with my dad.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d/365825-superstitious-behavior-e-collar.html


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## David Winners

Deno said:


> People like you never cease to amaze me.
> 
> I bet it's complicated for you to put your pants on.


If you would take a couple of hours and read through Lou's website, we could have an educated discussion on e-collar techniques. I think that would be far more productive than personal attacks. I take no pleasure in telling you that IMO, you are wrong. I'm only trying to get you, and the other 500 people that are reading this, to understand that there is more to e-collar training than corrections.

You are a stout proponent of the e-collar, which I think is a very valuable tool to train with. I would hope you would be interested in how to possibly use that tool in a safer, more effective manner.

I used to strap the collar on and start correcting dogs. This worked very well on the first few I trained, then I hit a major problem. I made a dog afraid of a gate to leave the back yard. He was so afraid that he would shut down when approaching it. I only corrected him once, and the level was not that high.

Had I not taken the time to seek out other training methods, I may have caused many more dogs undue stress and fear. Seeing what I did to that dog just about made me give up on e-collars all together. I would like to help everyone I can to avoid those same mistakes I made.

I apologize for not taking the time to better explain myself before, as I should have.


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## Deno

Lets just cut to the chase, are you able to take your dog anywhere, anytime, under any conditions off the lead?

I can. If you want, we can compare our dogs point to point. The proof is in the pudding.

I really think a lot of people talk it more than they can walk it.

I will drop it after you do.


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## David Winners

Deno said:


> Lets just cut to the chase, are you able to take your dog anywhere, anytime, under any conditions off the lead?
> 
> I can. If you want, we can compare our dogs point to point. The proof is in the pudding.
> 
> I really think a lot of people talk it more than they can walk it.
> 
> I will drop it after you do.


I have taken my 2 dogs to Afghanistan and found IEDs off leash, with the dog taking directional commands on a 2 way radio, in the dark, with me in a truck, 200 meters away, watching through NVGs.

My dogs run off leash 100% of the time now, even doing Air Assault raids out of Blackhawks and Chinooks. I don't put a leash on my dog.

I have trained hundreds of dogs to work off leash in combat situations. Handlers too. 


To me, this isn't a contest. I want you to understand that there is more to training than you now understand. That's OK. You can learn. I hope you can drop the defensiveness and take the time to educate yourself.

This is anything but personal for me. If you need credibility to believe me, I can provide it.


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## Deno

David,

I have never claimed to be any kind of expert on the e-collar.

I am sure Lou knows more than I know on the subject and

I am in no way opposed to being more educated. I am

just stating what I did to train Dex. It was simple and the

results were amazing. This may very well not work with 

every dog and I am not saying it would. It did work for Dex.

Deno


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## David Winners

Deno said:


> David,
> 
> I have never claimed to be any kind of expert on the e-collar.
> 
> I am sure Lou knows more than I know on the subject and
> 
> I am in no way opposed to being more educated. I am
> 
> just stating what I did to train Dex. It was simple and the
> 
> results were amazing. This may very well not work with
> 
> every dog and I am not saying it would. It did work for Dex.
> 
> Deno


Thanks man. I was getting tired of arguing 

I am really glad you are happy with your dog. That's what really counts. 

I hope you understand that most of this was about the people that are reading this that are wondering how to use that new Dogtra they just bought.


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## Deno

David,

Thank you for your service.

My snarky remark wasn't aimed at you.

You have my respect.

Deno


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## Bear L

To Jococyn and others reading this, I've watched Michael Ellis ecollar training videos. I've also read thru Lou's site. They are not exactly the same. Similar but not the same. 

Also, Ed Frawley only helps market Michael Ellis' training videos. What Ed believes is not the same as saying what Michael Ellis believes.


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## boomer11

Deno said:


> Lets just cut to the chase, are you able to take your dog anywhere, anytime, under any conditions off the lead?
> 
> I can. If you want, we can compare our dogs point to point. The proof is in the pudding.
> 
> I really think a lot of people talk it more than they can walk it.
> 
> I will drop it after you do.


my dog cant do all that. i actually have no idea how to even get him to stop pulling.

but since your dog can, can you post a video of you walking your dog around the neighborhood so i can learn? i'd love to see a video. actions speak louder than words.


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## newtexas

Is it possible to use both methods? One for educating and the other for correction.


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## boomer11

newtexas said:


> Is it possible to use both methods? One for educating and the other for correction.


yes you can. thats the point people are trying to get across and one that Deno simply cant grasp. 

if you have a good hard dog then you can use the ecollar to proof a command. you can also use the ecollar to change the way a dog thinks. 

for me personally i'd rather let the dog decide and use the ecollar to guide him towards the right choice instead of punishing him for not listening to a command. 

using the ecollar to punish a solid stable dog can have a different effect from using an ecollar to punish a dog that is unsure of itself. with a dog thats unsure/nervous/fearful/reactive, etc i'd rather let the dog decide and use the ecollar to guide it instead of using it as a punishment tool.


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## NancyJ

BearL if I am seeing correctly some of the subtle differences are ........ other than both very low stim, Ellis wants to see the behaviors trained FIRST where Castle uses the approach TO shape the behavior. More continuous stim with Lou, more nick with Ellis -- Somewhere in there....am going to borrow the Ellis tapes since all I have seen is promo stuff...but very low stim and he mentions escape training.

My own goal is NOT precision; my obedience is probably as precise as I need - it is more about control for me and my two most important commands there are a recall and an emergency down. They are all in CALY FORNEY A though on the other end of the world


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## David Winners

The Michael Ellis recall video covers his e-collar layering over the recall. If you are interested in a video Nancy, this may be the better choice for your requirements. The e-collar section isn't in depth, but you already know how to find the working level and the basics of escape training, so I think you would be fine with just the recall video.

OTOH, if you can borrow the e-collar videos, the price is right


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## Bear L

Biggest difference is leash pressure work that is done, the way Michael Ellis teach it. Lou Castle doesn't layer ecollar over leash pressure. The leash pressure, if I remember correctly (been a while), is learned first to teach the dog how to respond easily into the various positions/commands. After that, layer in the ecollar at the same time as leash pressure so that the dog learns what the stim is for. After the dog adjusted to the ecollar you won't need the leash pressure. There is more steps the way ME teaches it and is the protocol I followed.

ME teaches the continuous stim also but just mentions that some dog may respond better to nick, so that you find what works best for your dog. My dog works with nick, not continuous because that is what she responds better to. 

The recall ecollar tape by ME is excellent. I think Leerburg released a new ecollar training tape that is more comprehensive by ME as well. Haven't watched this one myself.


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## NancyJ

I hope to get it Monday night and if it is not the right tape I will order it.


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## NancyJ

To DPC, the OP

I would love to see a sit down side by side comparison of the various methods. Some are 'trade secrets' but I think they would "sell" more seminars/videos etc if they revelaled the "secrets" a little as Lou Castle does because we all know there is no real substitute for doing this kind of thing one on one with a mentor.


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## Deno

boomer11 said:


> my dog cant do all that. i actually have no idea how to even get him to stop pulling.
> 
> but since your dog can, can you post a video of you walking your dog around the neighborhood so i can learn? i'd love to see a video. actions speak louder than words.


Sure, no problem. He was just a pup here, about 13 months old.

He was heeling off the lead at around 4 months.

Copy of Dex @ Feeder's Supply - YouTube


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## David Winners

Deno said:


> Sure, no problem. He was just a pup here, about 13 months old.
> 
> He was heeling off the lead at around 4 months.
> 
> Copy of Dex @ Feeder's Supply - YouTube


Dex is a really nice dog. I like his temperament in the store, a bit aloof but social. You interact well with each other.

Nice job.

Nice truck. (The oops was funny  )

Nice dog.

Any videos of him doing bitework?


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## Deno

I had one video of him on another subject, but my wife destroyed it.

We have neighbors who ran into some serious insurance issues with their

2 well behaved Rottweiler's, no biting problems or anything like that, it

was just for having them. Thanks for the kind words, I had forgot how funny 

the look on my face was when the cart hit my truck.


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## dpc134

jocoyn said:


> To DPC, the OP
> 
> I would love to see a sit down side by side comparison of the various methods. Some are 'trade secrets' but I think they would "sell" more seminars/videos etc if they revelaled the "secrets" a little as Lou Castle does because we all know there is no real substitute for doing this kind of thing one on one with a mentor.


Yeah - I agree. So many methods out there and everyone seems to have their own little twist on how they are done.
I have always understood e-collars to be used as a correction when a known command is not followed, such as what Deno has stated. That just makes sense to me. However, before I purchased the e-collar, I read up on how to use it and discovered the whole low stim while saying the command (Lou Castle's method). 
Anyways, I purchased the Dogtra 1900 and signed up to Lou's website and I began training his method with my dog (15 month female). So far, it has been going well. Although, I am not sure how well, because my dog already knows and obeys the commands (sit, down, stay, here) prior to me using the e-collar. 
My intention with the e-collar is simply to reinforce the commands during high distraction / off leash. My concern with the e-collar is the dog becoming collar smart and only obey when the e-collar is on. I have read Lou's approach to weaning the dog off the collar and I plan on following that when my dog is ready. 
Thanks for the discussion and feedback.


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## LouCastle

Deno said:


> * the e-collar is nothing more than a tool that delivers a remote correction of different degrees. * If you have enough common sense to know when your dog needs a correction, you can use an e-collar.


Glad that this thread recovered from where it was heading. 

Deno if this is your only use of the Ecollar, you're only scratching the surface of what can be done with the tool. Many people, perhaps most, use the tool as you describe here, only for delivering remote corrections, and they are very happy with the results, as you seem to be. The problems come if the dog doesn't understand what the stim means, and that is not uncommon. When this happens I've seen people (and one of them has been mentioned here) who simply crank it up higher until the dog successfully guesses what is desired. But that guessing can take time and cause undue stress and discomfort to the dog. It can also result in the dog developing irrational fears that come from making improper associations. Most of my work is done at the level of stim that the dog can first perceive. 

My methods were devised to prevent this from happening. They involve guiding the dog into the desired behavior and then shutting off the stim, rewarding the dog for doing the right thing. That way the dogs don't get stressed and the work goes faster. I use the collar to teach with, not just to give corrections.


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## Deno

Lou,

Thank you for your input, I understand what you are saying about 

finding the working level for your dog and guiding it to wanted 

behavior and or away from certain acts before they start. I am a 

simple pragmatic man, hence my method, while what I did worked 

fantastic for Dex, I see the downside to it with the wrong dog. 

There is no doubt a prudent person would be wise to become 

familiar with your insight and methods.

Deno


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## Rexy

Deno said:


> Lou,
> 
> Thank you for your input, *I understand what you are saying about
> 
> finding the working level for your dog* and guiding it to wanted
> 
> behavior and or away from certain acts before they start. I am a
> 
> simple pragmatic man, hence my method, while what I did worked
> 
> fantastic for Dex, I see the downside to it with the wrong dog.
> 
> There is no doubt a prudent person would be wise to become
> 
> familiar with your insight and methods.
> 
> Deno


 Problem is, the working level of the dog varies dramatically depending on the level of arousal the dog's at in the moment unless Ecollar training is done in a sterile environment. If the dog has enough drive, I don't see the need for Ecollars at all other than using it for remote correction to sharpen up command responses.


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## LouCastle

Rexy said:


> Problem is, the working level of the dog varies dramatically depending on the level of arousal the dog's at in the moment unless Ecollar training is done in a sterile environment.


That's why quality Ecollars have many levels. So that they can be tuned to the level of distraction that the dog is feeling at the moment. 



Rexy said:


> If the dog * has enough drive, * I don't see the need for Ecollars at all other than using it for remote correction to sharpen up command responses.


But what if the dog does not have _"enough drive?"_ 

There's nothing wrong with just using an Ecollar _"for remote correction to sharpen up command responses."_ In fact that's the way that many, if not most people use the tool. But it's very limiting in what can be accomplished with the tool. 

Using the tool to teach OB with, even if the dog already knows the behaviors, teaches him several things, in addition to teaching the behaviors. One is that when the stim starts, he's done something wrong. Another is that when the stim stops he's done something right. And perhaps most important, he learns that he's in control of BOTH, when the stim starts and when it stops. Dogs trained with my method think that the stim came from the environment and/or from their behavior. This gives reliability, even when the handler is not present, that you don't get without a lot of work, if the dog thinks that the handler delivered the correction.


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## Deno

Lou, the light bulb just came on. The part about the dog thinking the stim comes from the cosmos is the key. I debated with myself on the pros & cons of this and I came to the wrong conclusion. This now confounds me, since in my favorite dog training book of all time, Lew Burke stressed the importance of the dog not associating you with the prong collar. I see the simple fact now, that your method would provide better control to all human pack members.


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## Rexy

LouCastle said:


> That's why quality Ecollars have many levels. So that they can be tuned to the level of distraction that the dog is feeling at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> But what if the dog does not have _"enough drive?"_
> 
> There's nothing wrong with just using an Ecollar _"for remote correction to sharpen up command responses."_ In fact that's the way that many, if not most people use the tool. But it's very limiting in what can be accomplished with the tool.
> 
> Using the tool to teach OB with, even if the dog already knows the behaviors, teaches him several things, in addition to teaching the behaviors. One is that when the stim starts, he's done something wrong. Another is that when the stim stops he's done something right. And perhaps most important, he learns that he's in control of BOTH, when the stim starts and when it stops. Dogs trained with my method think that the stim came from the environment and/or from their behavior. This gives reliability, even when the handler is not present, that you don't get without a lot of work, if the dog thinks that the handler delivered the correction.


 The Ecollar has a wide range of settings.....I have a Dogtra collar with 127 settings, but as the dogs arousal level continually changes in the moment when using an Ecollar for escape training, it's a task to get the right level to suit the moment, then having said that, a dog with varying ranges of arousal are usually dogs of good drive levels who work better for rewards of value.....dog working in drive for reward is far more motivated in my experience than a dog working to shut off a collar stim.

The Ecollar is an excellent tool for extinguishing unwanted behaviours used in a corrective fashion, but unless you training dud GSD's lacking drive, I don't see a place for it in obedience training over motivational reward based methods.


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## LouCastle

Deno said:


> [/b] Lou, the light bulb just came on. [/b] The part about the dog thinking the stim comes from the cosmos is the key. I debated with myself on the pros & cons of this and I came to the wrong conclusion. This now confounds me, since in my favorite dog training book of all time, Lew Burke stressed the importance of the dog not associating you with the prong collar. * I see the simple fact now, that your method would provide better control to all human pack members. *


Deno you just made my entire day! Thanks.


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## LouCastle

Rexy said:


> The Ecollar has a wide range of settings.....I have a Dogtra collar with 127 settings, but as the dogs arousal level continually changes in the moment when using an Ecollar for escape training, it's a task to get the right level to suit the moment,


I use the same Ecollar for my work. But I don't have any trouble finding the dog's working level even when his _"arousal level continually changes."_ Many people find the dog's working level and leave the Ecollar set there. I don't. I'm continually on the dial, moving it as the dog's needs change, and his arousal level shifts. 



Rexy said:


> then having said that, a dog with varying ranges of arousal are usually dogs of good drive levels who work better for rewards of value.....dog working in drive for reward is far more motivated in my experience than a dog working to shut off a collar stim.


I also combine working in drive with the Ecollar, using the dog's natural motivations with his desire to avoid discomfort, to guide him into what I need from him. 



Rexy said:


> The Ecollar is an excellent tool for extinguishing unwanted behaviours used in a corrective fashion


MANY people use the tool as you describe, only for _"extinguishing unwanted behaviors,"_ But that's quite limiting. 



Rexy said:


> but unless you training dud GSD's lacking drive, * I don't see a place for it in obedience training over motivational reward based methods. *


I DO see a place for it in OB training over _"motivational reward based methods. "_ I don't know what you’re doing in dogs but if it's training individual behaviors as in pet work or most forms of competition, then using _"motivational reward based methods"_ probably give acceptable results with some dogs. 

I'm working with dogs that search for a living in SAR and LE work. There, training individual behaviors gives results that are usually acceptable but they're nowhere near what can be done with methods that utilize the dog's drives directly. The Ecollar allows me to get cooperation without conflict and to do so with great precision. But it's not the kind of precision that comes with hammering dogs with the Ecollar (or any other tool for that matter) it's the kind of precision that having the dog in the correct drive brings. 

It seems that you keep missing the point that my use of the Ecollar for OB training is NOT merely to get the OB behavior. It's far more than that. I teach the behavior with the Ecollar, even if the dog already knows the behavior, * so that the dog learns the meaning of the stim. * This is far more than, "if you don't comply, you will be uncomfortable." Methods that only use the Ecollar for, as you said earlier, _"remote corrections to sharpen up command responses"_ do not do this.


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## Rexy

> I also combine working in drive with the Ecollar, using the dog's natural motivations with his desire to avoid discomfort, to guide him into what I need from him.


 A dogs drive to avoid discomfort in my experience flattens drive in general, that is whilst I agree it works like any other tools of aversion, the dog's natural motivations to desire something pleasurable and of value to the dog increases drive intensity, no different to how the William Koehler trained dogs although pin point accurate lost OB trials to dogs who had motivation to work over dogs behaving to avoid correction.

If a dog has enough drive and a "good" GSD will have enough drive to motivate with rewards of pleasure and value, you don't need any tools of correction or a need for the dog to avoid unpleasantness as the basis of it's training structure.

The Ecollar is a great tool and is one in my toolbox used often on some dogs, but it's not a tool I use by default to lay foundation training and is more reserved for problematic behaviour is where the Ecollar excels as a remote trainer especially in off leash scenarios where leash corrections aren't normally possible.

I ask this question:
If a dog trained in release for reward basis displays the correct behaviour, it need's an Ecollar to achieve what?


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## Deno

LouCastle said:


> Deno you just made my entire day! Thanks.


You are more than welcome.


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## LouCastle

Rexy said:


> A dogs drive to avoid discomfort in my experience * flattens drive * in general


If you're training individual behaviors, I have no doubt that this is true. I'm not doing this, and my dogs understand things about the Ecollar that yours do not, so my use of the Ecollar does not have this effect. 



Rexy said:


> that is whilst I agree it works like any other tools of aversion, the dog's natural motivations to desire something pleasurable and of value to the dog increases drive intensity


I'll disagree. A _"dog's natural motivations to desire something pleasurable and of value to the dog increases"_ only his desire to get that pleasurable 'thing.' It has no effect on the dog's drive. You don't build a dog's prey drive with treats, praise, or the like. But you may mean something else. Please clarify. 



Rexy said:


> no different to how the William Koehler trained dogs although pin point accurate lost OB trials to dogs who had motivation to work over dogs behaving to avoid correction.


That's more a shift in the ethos of judges, than a comment on the use of aversives. However, Koehler training (and I'm not advocating it, nor do I use it) is still in use and still successful. 



Rexy said:


> If a dog has enough drive and a "good" GSD will have enough drive to motivate with rewards of pleasure and value, you don't need any tools of correction or a need for the dog to avoid unpleasantness as the basis of it's training structure.


You keep NOT getting the point. The idea behind using the Ecollar in basic OB is not JUST to get the behavior. It's to teach the dog, things that I've already described. The way that most people use the tool, apparently the way that you use it, only as a remote correction has the effect, as you've told us of, _"flatten[ing] drive."_ I teach the dog about the stim before doing this work and I don't get the drive flattening. 



Rexy said:


> The Ecollar is a great tool and is one in my toolbox used often on some dogs


I use it on just about every dog that I train. 



Rexy said:


> but it's not a tool I use by default to lay foundation training and is more reserved for problematic behaviour is where the Ecollar excels as a remote trainer especially in off leash scenarios where leash corrections aren't normally possible.


I'm not surprised. This is how many people, if not most, use the tool, when a problem arises. You may fix the problem but you do so at a cost, as you've told us. You've got a probem. In order to fix it, you create another problem, _"drive flattening."_ Now you have ANOTHER problem to fix. I call this "building a mountain and then having to climb over it." I see no need to do it and I don't. It doesn't happen with my methods because the dog understand the stim. 

If you start with basic training with the Ecollar, you rarely get any of these problems and if you do, the Ecollar is used to fix it and it does not have the adverse effects that you have told us that you get. 



Rexy said:


> I ask this question:
> If a dog trained in release for reward basis displays the correct behaviour, it need's an Ecollar to achieve what?


I think that you're talking about the release of a bite, but I'm not sure. Please clarify and while you're at it, tell us what kind of work you do with dogs.


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