# How many of you use all positive training?



## Asten (Feb 1, 2015)

I've always used positive training, even for the human kids and they turned out just fine :laugh: 

I started watching Zak George videos about 3 years ago and love his techniques. So far they all work with B'Elanna (and my smaller dogs, too) so I'm just wondering how many of you use all positive (or primarily positive) training?


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## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

I do as dog always try to please you, works well especially for my gs as she is activity driven, unlike my golden that is food driven.


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## Bella67 (Jun 22, 2014)

I watched a couple but I got bored of them.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

All positive training is a myth.....rare if anyone has ever 100% employed it. A leash correction, a "time out", crating the dog for negative behavior, not rewarding the dog for failure, saying the word "no", ignoring the dog etc.....all contradict "all positive".

What exactly is "all positive training" anyway ?


Thanks,


SuperG


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

I am a fan of reward based marker training, so essentially positive training. I like to use negative punishment, i.e. reward denial, as my form of punishment instead of positive punishment/corrections. You do something I like, you get marked and the reward. You do the exercise wrong, no reward/deny play and attention. I think this teaches them to think through their actions and try new things to do the correct behavior. It also keeps a positive relationship with my dog, who is a friend first for me. I only use compulsion/correction in two I stances:

A) I have trained the dog, extensively proofed the dog so I know they know the command, and they are not obeying. In that case I might progress to giving a collar pop, using a prong, or even an eCollar in extreme cases. This is only after stimulus training though. If the dog is merely distracted then I need to do more proofing with them. Most bad behaviors aer a result of the dog not knowing the behavior I want, or fear/anxiety. Correction won't help with fear, it will only make it worse, and rewards can be used to show the dog what I want. However, some dogs need to know that not obeying just because they don't want to isn't an option. I don't think all dogs need complulsion, some might. Some are complete willing to follow their handler, some might have more independence, It is a dog by dog basis.

B) To stop self-satisfying behaviors that may become habits such as incessant barking, tail chasing, bird chasing, etc. For these behaviors I would use a leash pop then progress to a prong or eCollar if necessary, but only after reward based training and redirection failed. Habits are hard to break. They can become like an OCD obsession, so if I see one forming I want to nip it early. If their behavior is worth more to them than the highest value reward I have, they need to be corrected to stop the bad behavior. Theoretically, if I engaged the pup enough when it was young so I behave the most interested thin in its life with play,mugs, and treats, and redirected away from this behaviors right away, it won't come to correction.

Overall, correction for me doesn't have a place in training for commands, be it Schutzhund, IPO or home commands like sit, long down, etc. For a high drive dog the biggest punishment I could give is denying them the bit or the tug or the food. However, it can have a place in some behavior correction if and only if extensive use of reward training proved ineffective for that particular dog. Too much correction IMO breaks confidence.

But these opinions are based off of my limited dog training experience and mostly research through reading, videos, and talking to trainers.


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

SuperG said:


> All positive training is a myth.....rare if anyone has ever 100% employed it. A leash correction, a "time out", crating the dog for negative behavior, not rewarding the dog for failure, saying the word "no", ignoring the dog etc.....all contradict "all positive".
> 
> What exactly is "all positive training" anyway ?
> 
> ...


This.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Once my dog knows a behavior If they do it I positive reinforce it. If they dont do it I do positive punishment...so yeah I mostly do all positive training.


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## mauser1 (Feb 24, 2015)

My puppy basically won't respond to any sort of negative reinforcement or "punishment" like a time out in the crate or using a spray water bottle. The only thing he'll respond to that's sort of negative is when I say "no" in a drawn out way, with a deeper voice(I'm a woman) and give him a disappointed look. He almost always lays down as if to say he's sorry, but sometimes he'll kind of "back talk" softly. Other than that I use positive reinforcement. Treats the first few times when learning something new, then just praise. He doesn't care if you would try to reward him with a toy because he's too focused to play.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> All positive training is a myth.....rare if anyone has ever 100% employed it. A leash correction, a "time out", crating the dog for negative behavior, not rewarding the dog for failure, saying the word "no", ignoring the dog etc.....all contradict "all positive".
> 
> What exactly is "all positive training" anyway ?
> 
> ...


If a hard sharp "verbal" correction is not considered All Positive then I'm not in the "All Positive" camp. Not arguing just stating. 

Level and type of correction is going to depend on the dog, all dogs are different.

Thus far for the most part I've been able to get by with a flat collar and leash and verbal corrections with the dogs I've raised and the few I've trained. Those dogs get the difference between 'no' and "NO!!!" 

But that doesn't mean that will work everytime with every dog...you have to be flexible and learn what works with the dog in front of you!


Leerburg Dog Training | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> If a hard sharp "verbal" correction is not considered All Positive then I'm not in the "All Positive" camp. Not arguing just stating.



That sounds like outright bullying....


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Be careful you'll ruin the relationship


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Once my dog knows a behavior If they do it I positive reinforce it. If they dont do it I do positive punishment...so yeah I mostly do all positive training.


Lol. It's all positive!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I use primarily positive reinforcement or negative punishment. I very rarely use positive punishment.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you taught the dog right you should rarely be using positive punishment. So I guess that makes me a mostly positive reinforcement trainer?


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Since there's no such thing as all positive, I'll say I'm mostly positive. It would be more accurate to say I'm a reward based trainer. I'm a believer that if you teach the dog correctly the first time, motivate it properly, and set up your behavior correctly, you shouldn't need to punish your dog. I have used positive punishment, but it's things like vocal "No"'s and such. I just don't use the heavier positive punishment techniques like prongs or ecollars. I just haven't needed them. I told a friend six or so years ago that if I needed one I would use it, but so far I've never found one necessary.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Once my dog knows a behavior If they do it I positive reinforce it. If they dont do it I do positive punishment...so yeah I mostly do all positive training.


HA!

I love that you use those terms, so many people use the term "negative reinforcement." No no no, that means you up the chances that the dog will repeat the behavior in the future because you took something it didn't like out of the picture!

And I agree. A purely positive reinforcement approach did not work for us. I would go so far as to say it was crap.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> Since there's no such thing as all positive, I'll say I'm mostly positive. It would be more accurate to say I'm a reward based trainer. I'm a believer that if you teach the dog correctly the first time, motivate it properly, and set up your behavior correctly, you shouldn't need to punish your dog. I have used positive punishment, but it's things like vocal "No"'s and such. I just don't use the heavier positive punishment techniques like prongs or ecollars. I just haven't needed them. I told a friend six or so years ago that if I needed one I would use it, but so far I've never found one necessary.


I'm the same way. Positive punishment using sounds or verbal markers. Basic training is positive. I've never had to use physical force on my dogs for behavioral issues up to this point.


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

Can I get a clarification on what "training" means in this context? Are we talking about sport dog training, pet dog training?


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

crickets said:


> Can I get a clarification on what "training" means in this context? Are we talking about sport dog training, pet dog training?


I just assumed it meant how do you generally teach a dog a new behavior.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Once my dog knows a behavior If they do it I positive reinforce it. If they dont do it I do positive punishment...so yeah I mostly do all positive training.


LOL!

:thumbup:

Susan


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Positive training is not the same as operant conditioning and it is not something that you can use by itself. The word "positive" here is used in a wrong way. In operant conditioning "popsitive" means "adding something", either something that the dog enjoys or dislikes but both are used to get desired behavior. Operant conditioning has a deal of punishment in it as taking away a good thing or applying something the dog doesn't like to get the desired behavior. I still don't get what people mean by "positive training only". Does it mean to never punish (not talking about abusive means) a dog? If so, I don't think you can raise a dog to be a good dog like that. Nowadays it seems like everything has to be touchy-feely and be careful not to cause a traumatic experience. You see this in the human schools as well.
Compare it to a medical test. If you test positive for a disease, that is not good news; it means that you have it.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

So it appears that no one uses all positive training. I have no idea what negative training would be, so I would guess that I am mostly positive training. Is a pop of the collar negative training?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> If so, I don't think you can raise a dog to be a good dog like that. Nowadays it seems like everything has to be touchy-feely and be careful not to cause a traumatic experience. You see this in the human schools as well.



I resemble that statement...and feel bullied...I'm telling on you.


SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> That sounds like outright bullying....
> 
> 
> SuperG


 Actually my first Boxer/Pitt...thought it was! I gave him a 'SIT" command once...he looked at me like he was going to cry and then sat down.

I was stunned! I never did it again ( A hard command) a simple "no' and zero hard correction was all it took for him and following Boxers! I tend to think Boxers (American ones) are "soft" dogs seriously, goofy but soft! :crazy:

My GSD..bit more "complexe" he is both my greatest success and my biggest failure!

I did the "something wrong" I mention often (door dash,I'm pretty sure) and wound up with a 116lb OS WL GSD, rank driven monster on my hand! 

The fun part...he also is a Wobblers dog...so Dominant Dog collar, hard leash corrections and drag leash...all off the table.

Gunther (BullMastiff/APBT/Lab) was top dog and that was Rocky's target. I wound up getting hurt breaking up fights! I'd shout "Down" and even under full attack Gunther would comply...Rocky would "say" great and take advantage!!!

My wife said if it happened and I was not home...Gunther would pin Rocky and hold him!

So I guess he was "resource guarding me???" Muzzle was the only part I got right! Not enough tools available to me to deal with "this" situation. And the only way "cookies was going to work was with a fifty pound sack of them and a smack up side the head...which was off the table! Muzzle was the only thing that worked for me but that's not rehab.

Sadly the problem resolved itself...Gunther passed due to unrelated issue, so Rocky became in effect the top dog.  

Then came round two!! Another "I" have never been here before situation! Human aggression, he never gave me or my spouse or our female Boxer any grife. But at the holidays, first time people came over...he made it pretty clear that he was not a fan of company or folks in general!

A low growl and a steady gaze greeted folks! No barking or hopping around just a steady look at folks that said...I will mess you up!!

I took him at his word and I was not having any of this crap!!!

This time I was ready to deal! Same restrictions on collars and such still applied, and it struck me that luring people into reach with cookies and crap was not wise!

I found Leerburgh and "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" I instituted that policy managed his space, NO ONE, got in his face without getting past me! If we were approached he went behind me while I spoke to them about him.... I used the fabric muzzle at first, then as he got used to this approach I dropped the muzzle.

More walk,s more space management, then one day a GSD guy crossed the street to meet us, after I crossed the street to avoid him! He asked if he could pet Rocky who was in his place behind me. I looked at Rocky he looked fine as I now knew how he looked when he was not under stress.

I said OK and stepped aside, Rocky accepted his touch without issue...did not particularly care...but good enough! 

So at that point...job done!

Not sure how this fits into the Positive only paradigm but that's "our" experience.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18

Two thoughts after reading your post...one, Gunther gave you a lot...a benchmark of obedience under pressure...had to have been a great dog and relationship...and two, getting Rocky to the point you have, has to be satisfying. To me, hearing other people's experiences is great but when they describe a certain "trust" or mutual respect to a higher degree.....and bringing the dog to a better level regardless of the hurdle...it's inspiring and raises the benchmark.


SuperG


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## Asten (Feb 1, 2015)

Woooooowwww... So yeah, I obviously asked for some of the "you're an idiot" remarks in this thread. Any type of "punishment" isn't looked at as a positive, I realize that. Yes, I do use the word "No" and withhold reward when she doesn't get it right. And I did spank my human kids from time to time if they repeatedly did something wrong. That's about as negative as I've ever been with anything or anyone. 

That's why I put in parenthesis (or primarily positive) in the original post. 

My husband swears my give-a-**** button is broken. I have zero temper. I just handle things in a much less reactive way than he does.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Asten said:


> Woooooowwww... So yeah, I obviously asked for some of the "you're an idiot" remarks in this thread. Any type of "punishment" isn't looked at as a positive, I realize that. Yes, I do use the word "No" and withhold reward when she doesn't get it right. And I did spank my human kids from time to time if they repeatedly did something wrong. That's about as negative as I've ever been with anything or anyone.
> 
> That's why I put in parenthesis (or primarily positive) in the original post.
> 
> My husband swears my give-a-**** button is broken. I have zero temper. I just handle things in a much less reactive way than he does.


I mean, it was just a misunderstanding. There are a lot of trainers and individuals familiar with training, so when you say "positive" in relation to training, we immediately think you're talking about the learning quadrant (positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment). 

In the learning quadrant, the words only (roughly) mean this:
positive = a stimulus is added
negative = a stimulus is taken away
reinforcement = the behavior will repeat as a result
punishment = the behavior will decrease as a result

So asking if we use "positive training" is sort of asking an incomplete question. In the colloquial, if you meant positive as in treat training, training with praise, you'll find a lot of people that do that. Most people on here just usually assume the more scientific bent because it is clearer what the exercise is trying to achieve. Just a little explanation.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Chip18
> 
> Two thoughts after reading your post...one, Gunther gave you a lot...a benchmark of obedience under pressure...had to have been a great dog and relationship...and two, getting Rocky to the point you have, has to be satisfying. To me, hearing other people's experiences is great but when they describe a certain "trust" or mutual respect to a higher degree.....and bringing the dog to a better level regardless of the hurdle...it's inspiring and raises the benchmark.
> 
> ...


Gunther was even better than you know! I still have the use of my right hand because he was unreal under pressure! In my "early how to breakup a dog fight stage" I went for the collars my hand slipped and was in Gunther mouth! I felt him start to clamp down and with Rocky still on him he instantly let go of my hand!

After he passed, I resented Rocky immensely!  My wife said ...you have to let it go Gunther is gone and Rocky is still here.

It was hard but I swallowed hard and "let it go." Then Rocky started the people crap!!  Pay back time! 

Same conditions still applied but this time I was going to get this done! I was determined to solve this new problem and "out think my dog!"As I said 'Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" not really listed as dog rehab but it seemed to make sense to me?? So we walked many, many miles together, I always had my dogs back and now Rocky "knew" I had his. I kept those "bad people out of his space!

So we had built a bond the hard,hard way, and after two years or so I finally got the GSD thing! 

Rocky had a chance to make up for all the crap he'd put me through:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html


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## Asten (Feb 1, 2015)

Pax8 said:


> In the learning quadrant, the words only (roughly) mean this:
> positive = a stimulus is added
> negative = a stimulus is taken away
> reinforcement = the behavior will repeat as a result
> ...


I see! Thank you


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

I do the possitive training, works well for bandit


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Extract I wrote from another thread on a different topic with some minor edits...
It kind of explains the flawed logic for ALL POSITIVE.
And Justifies Reward Based Training with a base on positive first. Then corrections. 
No set rules... 
But Never limit yourself from using a tool that may help you!
Zack George is a clown, and he is clueless.

*Extract:*
_"Due to raising this dog by going to the dog park daily my dog would pull like a freighttrain to distractions on a walk... Simply put His desire to play with other dogs and free-reign in an unrestricted environment to explore superseded the most high value food rewards. You cant get a kid to stop playing his favourite soccer game, so you can give him his favorite ice cream... Dogs are the same.. Sometimes playing soccer with friends is simply much higher value... (Unless you starve a dog)

had tried my best to get him out of it possitively. I did not completely succeed… But I think the positive training was what fixed it so easy… 
Basically I got a prong collar… And within the first few minutes he stopped pulling, and listening to the commands more consistently…. He also was not fearfull at all and our relationship is great… (Because I did not prong and correct like a maniac from the start… I could have got better results earlier… But the relationship may be damaged this way… Dogs stop offering behaviours… And it would have been a mess.)

I mean a prong is like a magic tool… It can make even the most incompetent trainer look good...
Dogs can just respond to prongs.. (Or completely break)...
I had the basis taught tho… Shaka knew what they should be doing… So the prong correction was ok for him to handle, because he knew EXACTLY how to not make it happen….
He was never stressed from it… BEcause he knew where the STOP button was...

More on prongs: I think a prong when used correctly is actually more humane on the dog. From a physiological point of view… It just pinches the skin… So even though the immediate (pain) is more noticeable (Only when you correct).. The long term damage is substantially less...

From a functional point of view… there is more shock absorbtion in a prong… Its not that hard jerking motion… There is less arthritic changes in the long term or neck injury… There is no comparison… Also basically you can control a dog with one finger...(your leash pulls- or dog pulling/force is less than a one tenth of what you would require otherwise.)

From a psychological point of view however a prong can be devastating.. If the dog does not know how to swtitch off corrections… You can completely create a state of learned helplessness where the dog just gives up, or reacts back at you… (A dog does not understand arthritis and long term damage... Or an injury that might happen to him... But he immidiately understands what is happening to him now... The immediate pain... That psychologically direct experience can effect the dog.)

Also teaching new behaviours is a LOT easier… I can teach new out the box things so quickly because the dogs offer those behaviours… I can almost speak to them to accomplish my wanted goal… Whilst aversive trainers that force behaviours dont have problem solving dogs.. They have dogs that are forced to so somthing very very well through repetition and consequence… But rarely can they get a dog to “CHOSE” to try for a desired behaviour.. They have 0 communication with their dogs… The dogs just know to follow and shut down pressure... Even when corrections are combined with treats... from the start... Its not good enough.. Sometimes the treat is not worth 'making a mistake' so dogs may not take a chance to 'offer' a behaviour they may get wrong... That creates huge learning deterrents for new out the box behaviours and communications... Sure you could follow a guideline and achieve success... But thats not what pet ownership is about."_


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

kelliewilson said:


> I do the possitive training, works well for bandit


What do you do when Bandit does not comply ? 

SuperG


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I spanked my kids, soooo... Wait! What was the question?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I spanked my kids, soooo... Wait! What was the question?


We had to spank our kids, Jan, because they didn't have ecollars back then.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Lilie said:


> We had to spank our kids, Jan, because they didn't have ecollars back then.


Oh yeah! I forgot.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

All children under 5yrs. old in eating establishments should be equipped with ecollars.

Way off topic has anyone watched the tv show SLAP. I thought it would be really dumb but it's very interesting what happens to this family because an adult slapped a relatives brat.

Before anyone jumps on me, I generally love kids and have four of my own.
All are grown now and doing well in spite of the ecollars.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

This is turning into another topic. Perhaps we should start a child spanking topic on the chat section haha.mi think this thread was about positive dog training.


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