# How many litters is to many?



## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

How many litters is to many? 
So say, March is one breeding and May the next then a few months later another... etc. These are all different bitches but the same sire to all of them so far. What would you think of that?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Narny said:


> How many litters is to many?
> So say, March is one breeding and May the next then a few months later another... etc. These are all different bitches but the same sire to all of them so far. What would you think of that?


Not enough information to say whether or not it is good or bad. If the breeder's facility is filthy and the dogs are neglected, it is a problem. Otherwise, it really is not. If you have a good stud dog, you might use him with more than one of your bitches.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Same sire is the red flag to me. Why are these females all such great pedigree matches to him? Personally I'd go with a breeder with a couple females that breeds a few times a year and will use outside studs. Sure, having a stud is fine, but don't exclusively use him...see what your females will produce with other blood.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

I like most of what I have seen from this breeder and they have been very open in communication, but something nags at me and I dont know what.

I dont want to post who it is because I worry about possible breeder bashing. I dont want this to turn into that. 

I was wondering about the multiple breeding's with the same sire as well. I mean hes a great looking dog, really he is but is he that great that they happen to have 3 dams SO FAR to breed he to?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It really depends. Someone has to own stud dogs. Some breeders own stud dogs, some go with outside studs. Sometimes it makes sense to do one, sometimes it makes sense to do the other. If the breeder is breeding certain lines, and has a program, and has purchased a stud dog because if its pedigree, among other things, and how it will work with his bitches. And he complements the bitches or brings something to the program that they want to incorporate, I can certainly see them breeding him to more than one bitch right off the bat. 

On the one hand, 2-3 bitches means they are pets, and the breeder can spend a lot of time training, titling, working them. But they cannot do much in the way of breeding for the future, holding back pups to see how they turn out and having long term goals and plans. I think you almost cannot limit yourself to a very small kennel if you want to really go forward. One of those 2-3 bitches may fall out, one might not produce. And sometimes everything looks better on paper than in the whelping box.

In the end, some breeders will breed 1-2 litters per year, and some will breed 3-6. And some will breed even more. The number of litters a breeder can produce properly has to do with the individual breeder.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

They seem to have many MANY dogs just from the pictures of their kennels. They look clean from the pictures but I havent been to the kennel yet. I would go before I decided to put money down on a pup. From the looks of it they have about 20 or more dogs at least. Not saying thats bad, just saying to me (a newbie) that really seems like a lot.


How much personal attention can these dogs be getting?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Instead of just looking at the kennel grounds/dogs, look at what they've produced in the past?
Is that possible on their website(achievements/pics of past litters)? 
If the sire is _all_ that, then maybe it is fine. Otherwise they may just be breeding one male out of convenience. Do they actively train/work their dogs to show their assets?


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Instead of just looking at the kennel grounds/dogs, look at what they've produced in the past?
> Is that possible on their website(achievements/pics of past litters)?
> If the sire is _all_ that, then maybe it is fine. Otherwise they may just be breeding one male out of convenience. Do they actively train/work their dogs to show their assets?



They dont have previous litters listed unfortunately but they site is COVERED in happy customer reviews. They do train/work their dogs from what I can tell. They have 2 different trainers that work the dogs from the web site. I dont know how to check on a specific dog and its history. I see all the titles etc but I have no idea if they are worth anything or what they mean because I dont know enough about the training yet. What does all of this mean? *V1, CAC,CACIB SVV1, P1, OB1, PA, FO


*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

SDA(Service Dogs of America) titles/certs are underlined. Protection1 Obedience1 Protection alert and Family obedience 
Here is a link to SDA information...
German Shepherd Dogs, True Haus Kennels DDR


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Here is a list of other abbreviations:
Angehort
Breed Surveyed (recommeded for breeding)
Koerklasse 1
(Kkl 1) Especially recommended for breeding
Koerklasse 2
(Kkl 2) Suitable for breeding. Dog may have a structural or protection work fault which could be compensated for by bloodlines or working qualities. May be resurveyed and classified at a later date.
(*)
This symbol before a dog's name means it has been surveyed and approved for breeding.
"a"
Dog's hips have been x-rayed and certified acceptable. Required for Breed Survey.
LG
Landesgruppen (Regional) Show. There are approximately 1500 German Shepherd Dog clubs in Germany and these are under the juristdiction of the 15 Landesgruppen clubs. The LG shows are larger than the local shows and the judging and rating requirements are stricter. Landesgruppen Sieger and Siergerin titles are awarded.
VA
(Vorzüglich Auslese) Excellent Select title that is only awarded at the Annual Sieger Show Select Class.
V
(Vorzüglich) Excellent
SG
(Sehr Gut) Very Good
G
(Gut) Good
A
(Ausreichend) Sufficient
M
(Mangelhaft) Faulty
O
(Zero) Failed
U
Unsatisfactory
CACIB
A European International Champion
SchH/IPO
(Schutzhund) For dogs who have passed the examinations for obedience protection, and tracking. The titles1, 2, and 3 denote how advanced the training tests were. Dog must have at least a SchH/IPO1 to be Breed Surveyed.
AD
(Ausdauerpruefung) The dogs passed an endurance test by gaiting approximately six miles per hour for about nine miles with a ten minute rest halfway, and a simple Obedience Test at the end. A requirement for the Breed Survey.
HGH
(Herdengebrauchshund) Herding Dog
PH
(Polizei Hund)Police Dog
FH
(Fährten Hund) Tracking Dog


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Maybe he really is all that and a bag of chips. This is what they said about him in previous sell posts...



> He has it all, conformation, drive, temperament, train-ability, confidence, and an incredible personality that endears him to everyone he meets. He has earned many different types of titles in Europe and in the United States too. He has also sired many excellent puppies and has made a mark in the world of competitive working line German Shepherds


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

Thank you both, that really helps. Apparently hes just that good that they would want to use him often.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Still, I would want to use more than one male for my breedings no matter how great he is. As I posted before, look at what they've bred in the past if possible. "happy customer" reviews are selective. Though I know that many disgruntled buyers will make more noise than the happy ones....google the kennel name(or the dogs) for more information. If there are negatives, they will probably show up


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Although breeding back to one male is not necessarily bad. If a breeder has a nice male and that male is the type they like and strive to produce, it would stand to reason that they would buy females whose bloodlines would complement that males bloodlines. I know of a few breeders who have done that and as a matter of fact some KkL judges will state in the paperwork what bloodlines are beneficial to a specific male. Although not as common, I think I have an old KkL from one of our males that states which lines or linebreedings would be good. We did in fact end up breeding that male to females of the lines as suggested.(we didn't own the girls, so weren't the "breeder" just that when we got the inquiries regarding stud service, we felt confident with those females). The breeder may be breeding this male to multiple girls within certain lines to clarify what traits will surface or not.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd want to see what has been produced if possible, regardless. I would hope the breeder(any) would let the pups grow up some on a couple litters before using the stud again, just to be certain. I know of a male that is hardly three and has already been used a few times. I hope the pups he's producing are worthy,because it just seems like they are rushing him.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We look at it from a different angle. We have females from lines that Gabor knows, seen progeny from etc. Some are also from our own breeding program.

We do not have females to compliment our males. We look at pedigrees, what we want in a female, what the best combo would be for the females and look long term/strategically on what we want our breeding program to be long term.

We did a breeding in Europe that we could come very close to here in the States. That is a breeding in the timeline. And not to one of our males.

But, we do have 4 current males (1 retired competition, 3 active competition that we personally handle and train) and one up and coming. That does not preclude looking to outside males in the states.


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