# First Time..



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Working with a sleeve. At least I think that is a sleeve..or is it a bite pillow? IDK lol He worked at tug with a helper once a few weeks ago, but this was his first sleeve work.

As you can tell I am completely green and found a private club I like a lot. Preemptively as info- and for no other reason than respecting others privacy- I don't name trainers or places I train. You always will find someone who has something to say, and I don't like opening up to that unless they are here to answer. Just me  

I have QUESTIONS lol and I am enormously excited. I saw such a burst of confidence in my boy when he got on that table and started working it. I'm kind of hooked.

#1) I know playing tug with my dog as a reward is good...but when does it edge into me acting too much like a helper? Like, he loves the large 3 foot Gappy tug. He bites it like a sleeve. Should I stop doing that with him for now and just focus on the small reward tug?

#2) The focused heel. Ugh. My Waterloo. I had him on the Fuss command heeling nicely, but not staring at me. He is 10 months old. We are changing it up to be a focused heel when I say Fuss, so we can get our BH and maybe IPOs. I use "watch me" for eye command. Can I use the watch me command then Fuss? In other words, can I change it up so Fuss also means watch me, without having to say "watch me"? Or can I say both?

Say you have your focused Fuss down. What command do you use for just a regular heel/leash manners when you don't need him staring at you? 

#3) He is suspicious and forward defensive towards strangers. He is under my control, but had I not trained him out of it he would run up to people and bark in their face. After a few hard corrections he wont even go towards the end of his lead at a person or animal, and I can tell him "watch me" if I see him getting defensive, and he does. So we are heading in a good direction with it at least. I understand that doing the bitework will build his confidence and diminish, rather that "stoke" that behavior. Anyone NOT agree with that? 

#4) Genetics- the topic of so many threads. But let me tell you, I am green as can be but boy does he have his bite figured out. Was complimented on hitting hard, and full. Decent out, too (once I was showed how to out him properly). It was like once he clicked he knew what to do, and baby it felt good lol Previously it had just been me letting him win with both the small tug and larger one..and I saw the light in the eyes and the victory parade...but when he "won" against two different helpers he lit up with pride and was just contended the rest of the day. Is biting properly genetic then? The one or two times he didn't get a bite that was full he immediately fixed it. I didn't teach him that, that is for sure. 

#5) Last question- the one reason I had said I was not going to do any dog sport is because of the politics. I have experienced that in hobby/paying hobby communities before as a martial artists, grapplers. People will screw another instructor's student up on purpose given the opportunity. Well, I have heard of helpers purposely screwing up a dog because they are friends with another handlers dog and this dog is competition, stuff like that. I have heard of people frying dogs for titles, I have heard of people just being iced out because they weren't cool enough or experienced enough for the in crowd, or because they thought their dog had no business being there, OR the newb had no business with that dog. My question is how prevalent is that? Is it even true?

That is certainly not the attitude where I am training. They even took time to work with my timid little pit. Very nice people who obviously love the dogs. Do I HAVE to venture out of that and into B.S eventually, if I want to go as far as we can in IPO? They trial on their home field with judges they bring in, so I am hoping to be able to avoid it. It would be a deal breaker for me. I have 2 very disabled kids...i.e I have REAL things to be stressed about in life. It won't come from a sport. I have zero desire to win stuff, like trophies or anything...can I just put titles on him without jumping into the lion's den? 

Thanks in advance, and of course some pictures. I cropped out helpers so they are crappy cropped cell pics..but like I said, I respect their privacy


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you teach your dog to look at your eyes, he will wrap around you and forge.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CometDog said:


> #5) Last question- the one reason I had said I was not going to do any dog sport is because of the politics. I have experienced that in hobby/paying hobby communities before as a martial artists, grapplers. People will screw another instructor's student up on purpose given the opportunity. Well, I have heard of helpers purposely screwing up a dog because they are friends with another handlers dog and this dog is competition, stuff like that. I have heard of people frying dogs for titles, I have heard of people just being iced out because they weren't cool enough or experienced enough for the in crowd, or because they thought their dog had no business being there, OR the newb had no business with that dog. My question is how prevalent is that? Is it even true?


It's the reason I won't. I wanted to and the attitudes from the members were so horribly offensive and demeaning I said I had no further interest. But the people in this province are like that so I hope you continue to have success with your club.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> If you teach your dog to look at your eyes, he will wrap around you and forge.


I have no idea what that means lol Forge, like forge ahead? I was not into the focused heel at all, I was comfortable with a solid watch me command that he would hold even though he was walking, rather than defaulting to staring at me the minute I ask him to Fuss. Personally I think dog and handler both look like they are going to run into a tree. But I also understand that like highly stylized martial arts, nad some shooting sports, you are required to do things you just wouldnt do in real life, for points, because it looks cool? How much/long does he have to look at me wile in a fuss in order to pass BH? IPO?


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

he doesnt have to look at you once to *pass* a BH. As long as the dog stays with you and does not break long down and can do the exercises you will pass. there is also a tempermerment test and traffic test portion along with a written examination for the handler


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

CometDog said:


> I have QUESTIONS lol and I am enormously excited. I saw such a burst of confidence in my boy when he got on that table and started working it. I'm kind of hooked.
> 
> That's the trouble with IPO - it's addictive!
> 
> ...


I've no doubt that many of these stories are true! But not all clubs are like that. Just as you have found a nice group of people to train with, there are clubs and training groups out there that are very accepting and welcoming.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I just read over all the BH test. Cool! My pitbull would need a pill to get through it though lol

What about for IPO? Does he have to stare at you like that? 

If you edited the dog or the person out of a pair fussing like that, the remaining character would look ridiculous lol Not to slag the sport I just fell in love with, ha. 

It would remind me of this prank:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No, the dog does NOT have to focus on your face in IPO - They can heel in position looking ahead, and as long as they do the exercises correctly, they will pass. I've seen a SchH III dog earn their III that did not have a focused heel, but kept beautiful position throughout. The reason we train a focused heel is that once you have your dog's focus, everything else just follows naturally. And if your dog is not focused on you, the judge will probably comment about a lack of connection, but probably won't take points off unless you are competing in a high-level competition, and all the dogs are so good, the judge needs to be picky about little stuff like that. 

My take on it, and I'm someone who is NOT competitive at all though, is that teaching a focused heel teaches a solid foundation of obedience and develops an amazing connection between you and your dog. I can't think of any reason NOT to teach a focused heel. 

But I also think that if changing things up too much will cause issues with Valor's obedience, then don't sweat the focused heel: Stick to what works for you guys. An IPO BH routine is about 15 to 20 minutes long. The dog needs to do the heeling pattern twice: Once on leash, and once off leash.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Great! Thanks all. 

I absolutely see the benefits of a focused heel. But, since I started him with "watch me" independent of a heel, they are now two separate commands, and I believe I am not allowed to say any other verbal commands than what is on the test. Correct? Trying to turn "fuss" into automatically looking at me has caused some heeling confusion for sure. He is also leaning on me hard now (I assume from confusion..). It is almost like he was told to fuss, and he wants to do it, but he wants to look around, so he can know he is doing it if he is touching me. It is a new thing this week. Any help with that? 

I will get to go to my new club maybe twice a month just due to kids and life..so doing homework in between will be paramount.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

@Castlemaid thanks so much for the detailed answers!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

CometDog said:


> I have QUESTIONS lol and I am enormously excited. I saw such a burst of confidence in my boy when he got on that table and started working it. I'm kind of hooked.
> 
> #1) I know playing tug with my dog as a reward is good...but when does it edge into me acting too much like a helper? Like, he loves the large 3 foot Gappy tug. He bites it like a sleeve. Should I stop doing that with him for now and just focus on the small reward tug?


I have worked my own dogs in barking. They do not see me as a helper but as a serious sparing partner. Only time I would tell you to stop is if you have no idea what you are doing and the play is causing grip and barking issues. 



> #2) The focused heel. Ugh. My Waterloo. I had him on the Fuss command heeling nicely, but not staring at me. He is 10 months old. We are changing it up to be a focused heel when I say Fuss, so we can get our BH and maybe IPOs. I use "watch me" for eye command. Can I use the watch me command then Fuss? In other words, can I change it up so Fuss also means watch me, without having to say "watch me"? Or can I say both?
> 
> Say you have your focused Fuss down. What command do you use for just a regular heel/leash manners when you don't need him staring at you?


In training you can use the word for focus, as long as the dog understands the word, and pair it with the heel command so that he learns that heel means give me focus. In a trial you can only use your heel command. 



> #3) He is suspicious and forward defensive towards strangers. He is under my control, but had I not trained him out of it he would run up to people and bark in their face. After a few hard corrections he wont even go towards the end of his lead at a person or animal, and I can tell him "watch me" if I see him getting defensive, and he does. So we are heading in a good direction with it at least. I understand that doing the bitework will build his confidence and diminish, rather that "stoke" that behavior. Anyone NOT agree with that?


I use obedience to teach any dog that is exhibiting inappropriate aggression. I tend to use heel, down or sit instead of watch. I don't mind that my dogs look at what is bothering them, but once I ask for obedience I expect obedience. By asking for obedience instead of just correcting for a behavior you give your dog something to do and also let them know what you expect them to do. 



> #4) Genetics- the topic of so many threads. But let me tell you, I am green as can be but boy does he have his bite figured out. Was complimented on hitting hard, and full. Decent out, too (once I was showed how to out him properly). It was like once he clicked he knew what to do, and baby it felt good lol Previously it had just been me letting him win with both the small tug and larger one..and I saw the light in the eyes and the victory parade...but when he "won" against two different helpers he lit up with pride and was just contended the rest of the day. Is biting properly genetic then? The one or two times he didn't get a bite that was full he immediately fixed it. I didn't teach him that, that is for sure.


Grip and biting behaviors are genetics reinforced with training. 



> #5) Last question- the one reason I had said I was not going to do any dog sport is because of the politics. I have experienced that in hobby/paying hobby communities before as a martial artists, grapplers. People will screw another instructor's student up on purpose given the opportunity. Well, I have heard of helpers purposely screwing up a dog because they are friends with another handlers dog and this dog is competition, stuff like that. I have heard of people frying dogs for titles, I have heard of people just being iced out because they weren't cool enough or experienced enough for the in crowd, or because they thought their dog had no business being there, OR the newb had no business with that dog. My question is how prevalent is that? Is it even true?
> 
> That is certainly not the attitude where I am training. They even took time to work with my timid little pit. Very nice people who obviously love the dogs. Do I HAVE to venture out of that and into B.S eventually, if I want to go as far as we can in IPO? They trial on their home field with judges they bring in, so I am hoping to be able to avoid it. It would be a deal breaker for me. I have 2 very disabled kids...i.e I have REAL things to be stressed about in life. It won't come from a sport. I have zero desire to win stuff, like trophies or anything...can I just put titles on him without jumping into the lion's den?
> 
> Thanks in advance, and of course some pictures. I cropped out helpers so they are crappy cropped cell pics..but like I said, I respect their privacy


I have been training in SchH/IPO for over 26 years. I have belonged to 5 clubs and did pay to play. Some of the training and atmospheres were better than others, but for the most part I have been treated well and never discouraged because of the dogs I work or where I bought them. I won't say I haven't seen some of this stuff nor had some questionable work on my dogs, but on the whole things have been good. The big thing is that I tend to be able to get along with most people and will let most things just roll off my back. I love training my dogs and so I keep going even when things get tough because of that. Any time a group of people get together there will be the chance that there will be some strife. It seems to be human nature. Stay away from FB. Seems like the most negative of people flock there and spend their time complaining making it seem like the bad far outweighs the good.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

lhczth said:


> I have worked my own dogs in barking. They do not see me as a helper but as a serious sparing partner. Only time I would tell you to stop is if you have no idea what you are doing and the play is causing grip and barking issues.
> 
> I have been training in SchH/IPO for over 26 years. I have belonged to 5 clubs and did pay to play. Some of the training and atmospheres were better than others, but for the most part I have been treated well and never discouraged because of the dogs I work or where I bought them. I won't say I haven't seen some of this stuff nor had some questionable work on my dogs, but on the whole things have been good. The big thing is that I tend to be able to get along with most people and will let most things just roll off my back. I love training my dogs and so I keep going even when things get tough because of that. Any time a group of people get together there will be the chance that there will be some strife. It seems to be human nature. Stay away from FB. Seems like the most negative of people flock there and spend their time complaining making it seem like the bad far outweighs the good.



I have no idea what I am doing, for instance I did not know to stop the pulling before outing him. So I will reserve all that for working with the trainers there while I learn proper technique, and will only continue with the small tug as reward.

For the latter. good advice about FB and I will heed it. I am kind of over FB anyway. It has been all negative lately. It use to be a place to share your happy moments, accomplishments, and fun anecdotes, with the occasional heartfelt yet polite PSA about a cause or something thrown in. Now it is an all out War Zone.

I let so much in life roll off my back. Like when people make short bus jokes (my kid are on the short bus) or when I am sitting one table away with my visibly autistic son and the people across from us are keyed to make a genetics discussion, with the person saying loud enough for me to hear " if they can test for autism early, people will have to option to terminate, like with Downs". Swear, that happened last week. As a result I find myself with zero left over for things that are suppose to be fun outlets. For that reason, I will say I most likely will not "compete", but will merely be looking for passes..that will make me proud enough of me and the unfortunate dog I am learning on lol Nah, he is happy  I know most serious sports and hobbies suffer from that aspect, and I don't expect them to change for me, I just try to only do what I can handle and not set myself up for more aggro.

The place I am at is great, and they have been very welcoming and there is a nice balance of constructive criticism, humor, and love of the dogs. I can handle a tough instructor (in fact I prefer one) what I can't handle is back biting and people who bash someone the minute they leave the circle of conversation. I don't see any of that here. So it is all good 

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have trialed in many places and have always been treated well and fairly. Don't be afraid to venture to different clubs to trial or guest train unless your current club says "NO, NOT that club".


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And while I have tolerated some not great behavior in people, I do not tolerate it when it comes to the safety and welfare of my dogs. I just haven't faced dangerous or bad treatment in my dogs when I have trialed at other clubs. It just isn't that common.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thank you. I have heard a few stories, so I am glad to hear it isn't the norm. So far my own new experience has been great, so I am really happy about that. My daughter was going to come watch tomorrow, but now she has strep. Now nobody is going anywhere lol I joined the relationship games challenge on Collared Scholar. So we will just work on fun and focus. Since I have learned to improve my reward timing, he is hitting his commands quicker and with more enthusiasm. It is very gratifying for all


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