# Am I buying the right puppy?



## Timsar (Apr 30, 2014)

I'm buying a puppy from a family and wanted to see if I'm doing things right.

The family has couple GSDs. Two of the females just had litters (same father). The father is a German GSD breed (heidelberg) and the mom whose litter I've chosen is also a German GSD breed. Both parents have their AKC registration and papers. 

I've also made it a condition that the parents need to get OFA certified if Im going to get the puppy. 

The puppies are two weeks old now (im getting a male puppy) and I plan to pick him up in 4 weeks (so he will be 6 weeks old).


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Wait until he is 8 weeks. 

If the parents are not already OFA , then I would pass. It should have been done well before either were bred. If it was not, then I would walk away. 


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## Timsar (Apr 30, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Wait until he is 8 weeks.
> 
> If the parents are not already OFA , then I would pass. It should have been done well before either were bred. If it was not, then I would walk away.
> 
> ...


I guess the main issue the guy has with 6 weeks is that he doesn't want to pay for their shots at 6 weeks. I can tell him that I'll pay for those and want the puppies to stay with their mom until 8 weeks. 

Why do you say 8 weeks anyways?

Why should the parents be OFA certified before the litter? Is it not good enough if they get OFA certified now (few weeks after the litter has been born)?


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

A big thing about ofa results is that it shows the breeder gived a darn. Even ofa excellent parents can put out dogs with hip displaysia so its not any kind of guarantee. It sounds like your potential breeder stinks from what youve said about shots.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Timsar said:


> I guess the main issue the guy has with 6 weeks is that he doesn't want to pay for their shots at 6 weeks. I can tell him that I'll pay for those and want the puppies to stay with their mom until 8 weeks.
> 
> Why do you say 8 weeks anyways?
> 
> Why should the parents be OFA certified before the litter? Is it not good enough if they get OFA certified now (few weeks after the litter has been born)?


It means the breeder isn't what most around here would consider an "ethical" breeder. Sounds very much like a backyard breeder, throwing some dogs together because they are purebred and AKC registerable (real word?). Most here would never support going to this breeder, given the information you've provided so far (not OFA'd, doesn't want to pay for the 6 week shots so sending the pups home early...etc..) Just sounds like an outfit most wouldn't support. On top of which you are setting yourself up for potential health and temperament problems by supporting a breeder who does no testing for either thing at all, rather than going to a breeder that temperament tests and health tests their stock (through sport, real world work, OFA hips and elbows, cardiac, DM, etc...). By selecting a breeder that does all these things with their stock you are stacking the odds in your favor for temperament and health. 

The advice you are going to get is probably going to be a resounding, "keep looking." There are some great threads around here on "how to pick a breeder." Good luck.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with all of the above, breeders who want to get rid of their puppies at 6 weeks tells me, 1. they don't want to clean up the mess puppies start making at that age, 2. they don't want to pay anything for vet visit/shots, but WILL collect your money for the price of a puppy.

No OFA? Health testing? Tells me again, they aren't willing to put the effort forth to see whether these dogs have HD, ED, or anything else. Irresponsible.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OFA takes time...I did x-rays on April 16th and still don't have the results back. Just yesterday I saw my credit card was run for the fee. So if the puppies are 2 weeks old, it would take them around a month if they're not dragging their feet to get the x-ray done, sent in to the OFA Institute, and get the results back.

I'm assuming right now they're just seeing if they can find other customers that aren't making any demands of them and will just sell to those instead of spending $400+ to get both dog's hips checked in the next month. I also don't know if the dam can really leave the puppies right now anyways.

So gsdsar just meant that you can easily hold off giving them money until the puppies are 8 weeks old, if at that point the parents don't have their hips checked, pass on the litter.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> Wait until he is 8 weeks.
> 
> If the parents are not already OFA , then I would pass. It should have been done well before either were bred. If it was not, then I would walk away.


:thumbup:



JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with all of the above, breeders who want to get rid of their puppies at 6 weeks tells me, 1. they don't want to clean up the mess puppies start making at that age, 2. they don't want to pay anything for vet visit/shots, but WILL collect your money for the price of a puppy.
> 
> No OFA? Health testing? Tells me again, they aren't willing to put the effort forth to see whether these dogs have HD, ED, or anything else. Irresponsible.


:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Puppies don't need shots at 6 weeks....that breeder needs to research vaccine protocols among other things. I'd pass based on the whole description you've shared. 

Sad that people are failing this breed/ignorance is NO excuse.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

6 weeks is too early for shots.

If he can't afford shots (when appropriate), how would he afford OFAs? I would not want the dam taken away from the litter and at a vet's office (where she will be exposed to all kinds of crap and then carry that back to the puppies) to have OFA x-rays done. Then it's going to take 2+ weeks for OFA to issue the certificate.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The female will be still too loose, from whelping, to do OFA's. She should probably wait at least a month or so after weaning. 

The pups don't need to stay with mom for 8 weeks, but they need to stay together. This is where they learn bite inhibition, how to interact with other dogs (their littermates) and it helps with all sorts of other developmental things. 

Unless they are giving these puppies away, I would pass. These people are unwilling to do even the basics. Who knows what other shortcuts have been taken and what affect it will have on the health of the pups and their future. Don't pay them for their laziness and total disregard for the welfare of their dogs and pups.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I agree with everyone here.

Breeder has no sense of ethics regarding these pups. Parents all should have been OFA certified prior to breeding. In most states, it is ILLEGAL to let pups go before 8 weeks. It is too early to do first vaccines at 6 weeks. I hate letting them go at 8 because I have to get vaccines at 7 weeks and a day or two.....so they are immunized effectively at 8 weeks when they are ready to leave. Pups should also be examined by a vet for signs of any infectious disease, presence or absence of testicles and confirmed parasite free (or nearly! having been given wormer 2 to 3 times after they started to eat on their own).

This person wants nothing to do with responsible aspects and efforts of care for these puppies apparently.....and just wants to collect his few hundred bucks per puppy and get rid of them quickly. Not the kind of person I would do business with for anything, let alone a puppy.


I would suggest that you load the dice and get a puppy from a responsible, caring breeder who is concerned about the welfare of his adult dogs and puppies.

Lee


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I see the male is a Heidelberg dog. Although I am not a fan of them, the Heidelbereg folk generally are pretty good about health testing their breeding dogs. I wonder if this Heidelberg male was sold as a pup and although he has not been OFA'd, his parents may be. You can ask for a copy of his pedigree and the females too and go to the OFA website and see if any relatives are OFA rated. 

But I agree with the others, unless they are giving the pups away I would not get one. I would not support a 'breeder' that has no interest in the health of his adult dogs or pups. Sounds like thye just want a quick buck. I wonder about the health care and feeding the dam has recieved?

My very fisrt GSD was from a back yard breeder. Real names here - the owner of the female - Beatrice, wanted pups so they bred her to the neighbors white GSD - Bear. They hoped for a few whites but thay all turned out black and tan like Beatrice. Neither was OFA'd. In 1989 I knew nothing about health issues in dogs, I just knew my son wanted a Rin Tin Tin dog. So we bought a pup and he named her Lucky. She was the best dog in the world. She was wonderful. But we got lucky with Lucky. I met both parents and they were nice dogs but they had not been OFA'd. Lucky had moderate HD but lived to a few months short of 13. 

Many backyard bred dogs are nice dogs and make nice pets but more end up with health issues. As said, I would not pay much, if anything for this puppy. If you do chose to get this puppy at least you have your eyes open and know you may have health or temperament problems down the road. If you know these dogs and like them and feel they are stable, healthy dogs and the pup meets your requirements, give the little a guy a good home. Better he be with a loving family that will care for him then on the end of a chain in someone else's yard.


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## Timsar (Apr 30, 2014)

Thank you guys. I would have never known all these information if it wasn't because of this thread. I will need to do some serious thinking and make a decision. 

My next question is if I DO choose to go ahead with this puppy, what's the best path forward?

From what I understand so far I need to make sure he stays with the other puppies until 8 weeks old. I also need to make sure he gets the right shots at the right time (not at 6 weeks old of course). Also it seems like the OFA certifications are pointless at this point. Right?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

pups are better off staying with littermates until 8 weeks....some have been known to go at 6 and survive....take the pup to a vet immediately - and take a stool sample....get him checked for parasites - worms and coccidia right off the bat. Your vet may not want to vaccinate until he is 8 weeks old due to mother's milk immunity....do NOT "socialize" this pup anywhere UNTIL he is immunized!!! No pet stores, no dog parks, no walks down the street!!!!! You do not want to expose him to any risks from public places where other dogs have been.

OFAs are pointless now....if you are worried about the hip health of the parents - then do not buy the puppy and take a risk....there is not a pedigree out there that I cannot pick apart for negatives....but in truth, there is always a risk for bad hips, just a lesser risk from known parentage.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Here is a link to vaccination protocols: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | 2013 and 2014 Canine Vaccination Protocol - W. Jean Dodds, DVM
There are other things beside hip/elbow tests to consider. Allergies, food or gut sensitivity(EPI) how exactly the breeder is raising the pups, what are they feeding the bitches/what will they start the pups on when weaning begins. Do they do or even know about early puppy raising/imprinting? Are the pups kept in an area so they learn about potty training/crate training before they even leave the breeder? 



> do NOT "socialize" this pup anywhere UNTIL he is immunized!!! No pet stores, no dog parks, no walks down the street!!!!! You do not want to expose him to any risks from public places where other dogs have been.


 How many people are visiting to see these litters? Could they be coming from other kennels to choose a pup and possibly contaminating the breeders property? I'd be concerned about that as much as what Lee posted above. How is this breeder advertising? If it is an online classified, I'd be concerned about others coming and going/unless the breeder is being very protective and not allowing strangers in.
So many things good breeders do to start pups out for success, that the ones who take the shortcuts have no idea about.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Unless they are giving these puppies away, I would pass.


Personally, I'd pass if they were free. Shoot, I wouldn't take one if he was paying me $500 to take it. A friend likes to say, "There's no such thing as a free dog." That's true even with sound, healthy dogs. Costs on unhealthy, structurally compromised dogs, can quickly become stratospheric. He doesn't seem to be doing anything to ensure health, vigor & longevity. Sadly, in a breed as genetically troubled as the GSD, that's just way too risky, IMO.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Someone will end up with the pup....

SuperG


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## Timsar (Apr 30, 2014)

Im being more and more convinced to let this one go an look more. 
This is the listing where I found the breeder


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Avoid craigslist and pass on this breeder. What you'll risk spending in health and temperament issues, you'll make up in getting a puppy from a solid breeder who follows good breeding practices. An unhealthy pup will break your heart and you're bank account. A dog with a weird temperament will do the same.

Is this your first german shepherd? Any children in the home? I'm wondering because I just saw a rescue listing in your area. Beautiful young shepherd - beyond little carpet shark stage but young enough to be a fine companion.


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## Timsar (Apr 30, 2014)

SunCzarina said:


> Avoid craigslist and pass on this breeder. What you'll risk spending in health and temperament issues, you'll make up in getting a puppy from a solid breeder who follows good breeding practices. An unhealthy pup will break your heart and you're bank account. A dog with a weird temperament will do the same.
> 
> Is this your first german shepherd? Any children in the home? I'm wondering because I just saw a rescue listing in your area. Beautiful young shepherd - beyond little carpet shark stage but young enough to be a fine companion.


First german shepehrd and no kids. 

Are rescue GSDs safer to adopt than a breeder like this?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Timsar said:


> First german shepehrd and no kids.
> 
> Are rescue GSDs safer to adopt than a breeder like this?


I think alot of dogs in rescue are from unknown backgrounds - and there is a certain percentage of dogs who are from better bred parents whose owners were underprepared and over whelmed....

Pretty much a wash IMO

Lee


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Timsar said:


> First german shepehrd and no kids.
> 
> Are rescue GSDs safer to adopt than a breeder like this?


I think a good rescue is a safer bet. The dogs are in foster homes, so you can get an idea about their temperament, and healthwise, some things may be discovered after a year or two or more.


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## Timsar (Apr 30, 2014)

So based on the recommendations from this thread I canceled that purchase and am now looking more seriously and patiently for a quality breeder. 

I also did more studying and at least i Know that I'm looking for a male sable working line gsd (I also raised my budget to $1000-$2000)

Thanks for the advices everyone


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

skipped the second page, the breeder you are looking to deal with is either a puppy miller, byb or just doesn't know what he/she is doing. seems like quite a gamble. go out and meet other breeders, you will see a big difference.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Timsar said:


> So based on the recommendations from this thread I canceled that purchase and am now looking more seriously and patiently for a quality breeder.
> 
> I also did more studying and at least i Know that I'm looking for a male sable working line gsd (I also raised my budget to $1000-$2000)
> 
> Thanks for the advices everyone


:thumbup: Excellent decision. Good luck with your search!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree, excellent decision. I will send a couple breeder names to you in a PM. Closer to you.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

you will be much happier when you find your pup.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Timsar said:


> So based on the recommendations from this thread I canceled that purchase and am now looking more seriously and patiently for a quality breeder.
> 
> I also did more studying and at least i Know that I'm looking for a male sable working line gsd (I also raised my budget to $1000-$2000)
> 
> Thanks for the advices everyone


Great decision! You won't regret it :thumbup:

Keep learning about the breed and figure out the traits you want in a pup. Be able to give an honest and detailed request to a breeder on what you want and your goals. Dont say you want a sport prospect dog if you can't commit to the cost and time involved. A great breeder can then match you with the pup that is the best fit for you. 

How to Select a Breeder - German Shepherd Guide


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Timsar said:


> So based on the recommendations from this thread I canceled that purchase and am now looking more seriously and patiently for a quality breeder.
> 
> I also did more studying and at least i Know that I'm looking for a male sable working line gsd (I also raised my budget to $1000-$2000)
> 
> Thanks for the advices everyone


Great! You might have just have saved yourself lots of money, headaches and heartaches. It is to your benefit to stack the deck in your favor by going with a breeder who actually OFAs their stock, cares enough about the puppies to turn away buyers, and will ensure the pups get the right socialization at that early age with their litter mates before being shipped off to their new homes.


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

Timsar- I think in this case you made a good choice since it sounds like this person does not really know what they were doing. 
If you let people know were you are located they may be able to help you find a breeder who might be able to help get you a pup that is suitable for your needs and home. 
I wish you all the best in your search


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Timsar said:


> So based on the recommendations from this thread I canceled that purchase and am now looking more seriously and patiently for a quality breeder.
> 
> I also did more studying and at least i Know that I'm looking for a male sable working line gsd (I also raised my budget to $1000-$2000)
> 
> Thanks for the advices everyone


Good for you! I think you'll be glad you waited for the right pup, they become such a huge part of your life, it's worth waiting for the right one. A bad one can end up being a nightmare, and a nightmare you're stuck dealing with for years and years.

So many people ignore that advice, I'm really glad you chose to hold off. I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding the perfect pup.


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