# Handler Aggression vs Redirection Aggression



## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I was watching a video on YouTube where a popular dog trainer was working with an owner who had a Doberman. The Doberman was dog-aggressive. When the owner gave a correction, the dog redirected onto him. When the trainer took the lead, the dog redirected onto the trainer. 

That led me to wonder would that be considered handler aggression or just redirection aggression since it wasn’t handler specific? Are they the same thing? Does it depend on what motivates the dog to redirect? Is there a genetic component to either?

Things I’m pondering tonight. LOL


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Handler = person handling the dog. Doesn’t have to be the owner.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

That makes sense. Thanks. Is there a genetic component? I’ve heard it can run in certain lines.

I also ask because my sister had a husky who would redirect on another dog in the house. That’s why I wasn’t sure if it was the same thing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Different motivation.
In simplified terms:

Handler aggression is rooted in fairness from the dog's perspective and/or rank.

Redirection is frustration that results in basically random reaction.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It could be a redirect or handler aggression based on your description to me. Redirecting from frustration means the dog would have lashed out at anything near by. If it’s handler aggression it would show up in other places when the dog was given a correction. I don’t see handler aggression towards an unknown or new handler in the same light as aggression towards the long term owner. I consider bear handler soft, but he has a different response to someone else trying to give him a correction.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Thanks, David and Bearshandler.

I guess in my my mind, I always thought of handler aggression as owner aggression. But David’s explanation makes sense. I have a handler soft dog so I don‘t struggle with this issue.

I was in a training class with a fireman who had a handler aggressive Belgium Malinois First time I saw it up close. At the end of the class, we’d let the dogs run an agility course that was set up. When the fireman ran the course, he couldn’t get his dog on the beam. The dog kept redirecting on him every time he tried to lift the dog up. The dog wasn’t having it.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't use most of the terminology trainers and owners like to throw around because I typically don't see it as all that helpful in many (most) cases. But understanding the dog's motivation helps direct the approach to helping the dog get beyond the issue.

Always best to teach what you want, versus stopping a bad behavior by "training it out of him"! 

If the video you're referring to is from Tom at Upstate, I think the first thing to note is that this dog is not dog aggressive! 

He's just practiced bad behavior and now the owner sees the problem with that. Good for him that he's working on it with a good trainer!

Truly dog aggressive dogs are pretty rare. It definitely has a genetic component, but I personally believe it's also simply a matter of never having taught the dog correct behavior. With a dog aggressive dog, very strict obedience is the key. The dog will very likely always be dog aggressive. So the focus is on control and practice in numerous situations and environments.

What I saw too, is that the "handler aggression" this dog was indulging in was also a learned and well practiced bad behavior! Not really handler aggression, since no correction preceeded his actions typically.

Dogs that act this way when young, when not addressed, nearly always end up just like this! No one ever showed him what the desired behavior is, so he chose it for himself! Let that go for a year or so, and viola, you end up with a dog that's nearly unworkable!

For this dog, as the video showed, engagement and desensitization around other dogs should resolve the problem. And I say should, because all dogs are unique, just when you think you know it all...lol!

Anyway, good thread! It was an interesting session, and I really LOVE RED DOBERMANS!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@tim_s_adams Shadow is dog aggressive, it will never change but we manage.
When she was young she would and did redirect at me, she would not dream of it now. However if I hand the leash off she will deliberately and with intent come up the leash at anyone else with fairly minimal provocation. A small correction or any pressure will get another person bit.
So there is a real distinction between redirection and handler aggression.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> @tim_s_adams Shadow is dog aggressive, it will never change but we manage.
> When she was young she would and did redirect at me, she would not dream of it now. However if I hand the leash off she will deliberately and with intent come up the leash at anyone else with fairly minimal provocation. A small correction or any pressure will get another person bit.
> So there is a real distinction between redirection and handler aggression.


Yeah, I didn't say or mean to say they aren't completely different! Handler aggression is intentionally directed toward whoever gave what he or she believes is - and this is where it gets trucky - an unfair, or unacceptable correction for something. Dogs doing this, IMHO, aren't frantic and just frustrated, its directed and directly in response to a perceived wrong.

A reactive dog on the other hand is just wildly frustrated and will bite anything or anyone who gets near!

I'm the latter BTW LOL!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I think this is an important discussion for new owners since imho redirection from an otherwise owner sensative dog is easy to address and actually fix. But fear of the dog can’t enter into the pic and sometimes it does.

Handler aggression is another ball of wax that I personally never want to experience.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I can’t say I’m a fan of the dogs coming up the leash. It is usually a problem for unknown handlers or people the dog isn’t used to working with. You are more likely to see it if you’re the second owner of a more mature dog. I looked at that video. I would say that dog is redirecting. He looks like he gets hectic in drive.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IllinoisNative said:


> I was watching a video on YouTube where a popular dog trainer was working with an owner who had a Doberman. The Doberman was dog-aggressive. When the owner gave a correction, the dog redirected onto him. When the trainer took the lead, the dog redirected onto the trainer.
> 
> That led me to wonder would that be considered handler aggression or just redirection aggression since it wasn’t handler specific? Are they the same thing? Does it depend on what motivates the dog to redirect? Is there a genetic component to either?
> 
> Things I’m pondering tonight. LOL


Just watched the video in question. The first "attack" was a bit of handler aggression. It came after the dog was allowed to self correct on the prong, a weak leash pop and verbal correction. He's trying to put a strange dog into a down while in a high state of excitement close to the trigger.

The second "attack" was prey response to the trainer moving away when the dog was amped up by the trigger, small leash pops and possibly e-collar.

Then there is an edit and the dog is behaving much differently. Either there was some behind the scenes training going on, or (I suspect) the dog was given a chance to cool down and then brought back out.

Notice how differently the dog is handled. Earlier, he was given room to self correct on the prong and then hard OB commands with pops on the prong and possibly stim. The handling is much calmer and softer in the second part of the video.

I believe the primary motivation behind this video is to get clicks, not to show proper training. I'm not saying he's a bad trainer at all. I just think his motivation drives the video content. A "dog attack" video is more likely to get views than a reactive dog video.

This is 100% speculation and I'm not trying to damage his character or lose him fans.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had a trainer take Shadow's leash and try and drag her out of the yard. Shadow tried to hit the brakes and when that failed she went right up the leash.
It was a blatant aggressive attack and anyone watching would call it handler aggression. But it was still a fear response.
So would we call it handler aggressive or was it a redirect due to excited fear?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't see where the definition is important because you understand the behavior and motivation behind it. It's just semantics.

In general terms, redirection is excitement from external stimulation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was just thinking that to an outsider the responses could look very similar. Especially on a video where you have no context.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

tim_s_adams said:


> If the video you're referring to is from Tom at Upstate, I think the first thing to note is that this dog is not dog aggressive!


Yes, that’s it. 



> He's just practiced bad behavior and now the owner sees the problem with that. Good for him that he's working on it with a good trainer!


Yep. So that would be an owner handling error. So I was wondering if most redirection or handler aggression was learned vs genetic. You always hear about some dogs who go after their handler and bringing that trait to their progeny. But would different handling bring out different results?



> Anyway, good thread! It was an interesting session, and I really LOVE RED DOBERMANS!


I love Dobermans, too. In any color. lol


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

So, David, are you saying a weak correction contributed to the handler aggression in the first “attack”? Would a stronger correction prevent that? How would you have handled it knowing the dog was reactive? I find this topic fascinating.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Leash pops can amp a dog up. Stim taps can as well. 

If I was going to use corrections, I'd use a DD collar. 

I'd probably do something much like the second half of the video


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