# White German Shepherd Breeders?



## Rei

Wondering if anyone could recommend to me any White German Shepherd breeders. Shipping is an option. Preferably the dogs are worked with in a performance sport. 

No puppy for me until at least 3-5 years later, and even then I will likely stick to the West German lines, but I like to keep my options open and do some more research and talking to breeders just in case. The white German shepherds are definitely growing on me, and I was wondering about the reputable white German Shepherd breeders here in the US. Long coats popping up in their litters would be a plus - white coaties are just stunning
:wub:

I do have a couple of breeders in mind, and really like the look of Atlas Kennels (Atlas Kennels - German Shepherds). Unfortunately, this particular breeder doesn't breed litters herself, but her dog Atlas is a very popular stud. 

WGSDCA BIF/BIM Grand Victor 6x Select Ch. / WGSDCII Grand Victor and 3x Select Ch. / ARBA BIS Master Ch. / FO URO1 UKC 7x BIMBS 4x RBIMBS Grand GSD Ch. / IABCA Multi. Ch. Eclipse's Strength of Atlas, RN, RL1, TN-N, WAX, WVDX, WROM, O-V, TC, TT, CGC, TDI, OFA H/Cardiac/MDR1/DM








Atlas White German Shepherds - Atlas' Page

Any other suggestions? Also, as a clarification, I am looking for German Shepherd breeders that breed white GSDs, not White Shepherd breeders.


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## atravis

Is Hoofprint Kennels still producing dogs? I've always heard they were the best in whites.


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## KITTIEG

You might do a search on the web for "white german shepherd". When I was looking a WGS, I found it. It's a society type thing that has shows & tells about all who's won. I think it also mentions breeders, worth a try.


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## Rei

Lex, to the best of my knowledge, Hoofprint breeds White Shepherds. As stated in my last sentence of my original post, I am looking for breeders of German Shepherd Dogs who produce whites.


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## Chris Wild

I'm confused. Can you clarify the difference between a "German Shepherd breeder who breeds whites" and a "White Shepherd breeder"? They're the same thing as near as I can figure....


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## Rei

Sure, Chris.

From what I've learned, enthusiasts of the white German Shepherd/White Shepherd belong into different groups. One group firmly believes that the white German Shepherd is still a German Shepherd, but simply another color, as the black color is. They continue to fight for recognition and prove their dogs through UKC shows, performance sports, and perhaps campaigning for the color to be allowed in the AKC show ring. 

White Shepherd breeders will declare this a different breed on its own. To quote someone who trains her White Shepherd in Schutzhund (and I believe breeds them, as well?), "The similarities between a White Shepherd and a German Shepherd Dog are like the similarities between a Belgian Malinois and a German Shepherd Dog", or something along those lines. While yes, you can register a dog as a White Shepherd among the UKC AND a German Shepherd among the AKC (this is one reason I am iffy about White Shepherds), the enthusiasts see them as a separate breed. 

Many white German Shepherd breeders strongly oppose the new White Shepherd breed, and this remains a huge controversy between the two different groups. Some white German Shepherd breeders even say they may quit breeding white German Shepherds entirely if they became a different breed under the AKC (although this personally is a concept I have difficulty with).

If you take a look at the dogs at Hoofprint, and their comformation titles, you can see they are shown as a rare breed, and not as a German Shepherd Dog. The breeder I linked to shows dogs under the UKC as a German Shepherd Dog, and not a White Shepherd. 

I don't oppose the White Shepherd as a breed, as I personally do not understand them enough to have a strict opinion on them. There are practices among breeders and kennels of this breed that admittedly, confuse me. However, as I believe that purchasing from a breeder also is a display of support for the breeder as well as his/her practices, I would prefer to support breeders of the German Shepherd Dog who breed white German Shepherds as German Shepherds with a white coat.

Not sure how much sense that made.


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## KITTIEG

AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH:dancingtree: I think I understant!


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## Rei

Glad it wasn't just a rambling mess! 

I consider myself unfamiliar still with the entire white German Shepherd vs. White Shepherd debate, and can only cover the basics and base things off of what many others from both sides of the argument have informed me. So hopefully if someone with more knowledge in this regards is reading, she/he will chime in.


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## doggiedad

i don't. will you explain it to me. :headbang:, :laugh:.


KITTIEG said:


> AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH:dancingtree: I think I understant!


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## Emoore

doggiedad said:


> i don't. will you explain it to me. :headbang:, :laugh:.


Sounds like there are 2 subsets of WGSD breeders: the ones who want to keep WGSDs as a part of the larger German Shepherd breed, just as a different color, and those who think that White Shepherds should be a separate breed and are working to make it so. The former compete their dogs as German Shepherds in UKC shows while the latter compete as rare breeds under the heading "White Shepherd." The OP is looking for the former type breeder. Am I right?


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## Rei

Clearer and more concise than I could have managed, thanks!

As a side note, some White Shepherd breeders will compete with their dogs as White German Shepherds under registries, such as the AKC, that do not recognize the White Shepherd breed. Some breeders will also cross breed with German Shepherd Dogs and still register their pups as purebred White Shepherds and/or White German Shepherds. I take this to mean that the White Shepherd is still a developing breed and widening their gene pool, and can understand that motivation, but I am still trying to learn more about this myself.


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## atravis

Rei, I think what you are dealing with here is an issue of semantics.

The White German Shepherd and the "White Shepherd"/"Swiss Shepherd"/"American White Shepherd" are all inherently the same breed. They are ALL GSDs.

If you want to support one group over the other based on your own beliefs as to how the white coat variation should be handled, then that's your right to do so.
But genetically, they are all the same animal.

As an aside, I believe many white breeders show under the "rare breed" class, BECAUSE the AKC/SV will not acknowledge them. Its not that they want to be classified as a "new" breed (though I'm sure there are some who do), more so than they just want legitimate conformation titles on their dogs.

Personally, I'd just want the healthiest, most solid dog I could fine. Semantics in this scenario really wouldn't be of much use to me...


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## Rei

In such a case, we can only agree to disagree. Both white German Shepherd people and White Shepherd people have told me differently, that it is not a simple matter of semantics. At this point, I feel that I've learned from enough of both groups to know that at the very least.

As I've already said, choosing a breeder for me is more than just getting a healthy dog out of the deal. If only it were that easy - it's also about supporting a practice.

Also, whether or not it's a simple matter of semantics, purchasing from a white German Shepherd breeder IS different from purchasing from a White Shepherd breeder. So from that perspective, there would still be good reason for my choice to distinguish between the two and request for white GSD breeders as opposed to White Shepherd breeders.


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## atravis

So these people are saying white GSDs and "White Shepherds" are actually -genetically- different breeds? Have "White Shepherds" been outcorssing? If so, to what? Are they not all dogs of Grief? 

I've never heard tales of outcrossing, even from those who DO want a breed split. So I'm having trouble seeing the difference here.


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## Rei

No out crossing from what I've heard, but they are a relatively developed breed and if you would refer to my quote earlier, you may be able to understand what I'm referring to. No one ever mentioned anything about genetic difference. Structural, definitely. And frankly, if the White Shepherd breeders and experts call them and have intended for them to be a different breed, then that's that. They could be genetically derived from the same stock, but developed into something different. 

But the main reason I choose to point out a difference exists is, once more, because I care about supporting a breeder's goals and practices as well. I am not simply concerned with how nice of a dog I personally get to take home. I like to take into account the consequences of my actions and frankly, if I do go the White GSD route, I'll be choosing between one and the other.


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## atravis

"I am not simply concerned with how nice of a dog I personally get to take home."

Sorry friend, but you should. You have to live with this dog for the rest of its life... don't you think its health and well-being are http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/#worth more than a crusade?

It occurs to me that this closely parallels the Working vs. Show argument already within this breed. Both have VAST structural differences, but aside from the crusty old breed purists looking for a cheap laugh, I hear no one attempting to call Am. lines and Czech dogs different breeds. 

I, personally, would never own anything outside of a good DDR/Czech dog.
But that has nothing to do with who I think is "right" or "wrong", or who I feel I need to support as my "cause". I choose this because for ME, there is no better suited dog. If I were to pick up a dog that was completely wrong for me simply because I wanted to prove a point, who ultimately looses there? 

Not saying what is/isn't right/wrong for you. I'm simply saying.


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## Rei

Also, as a clarification, I do personally believe that essentially, the White Shepherd, yes, is still a GSD, although this is not a strict, set in stone belief as I am still learning. But this is also the reason why I would prefer to purchase from a breeder of white German Shepherds, because they are breeding white German Shepherds as white German Shepherds. 

I know it appears I believe otherwise at some points, but I am simply echoing information I received from enthusiasts of the White Shepherd breed as a means to further elaborate previous statements, but iin the end, I still rather see them bred as German Shepherds. However, I am also aware that this is a personal view rather than an outright fact, and that's why I share both sides of the argument. 

If you delve deeper into the white German Shepherd vs. White Shepherd argument and talk to those involved with supporting their breed, you'll likely understand that purchasing from one is not the same as purchasing a pup from the other. Which explains my original post and request.


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## Rei

"Sorry friend, but you should. You have to live with this dog for the rest of its life... don't you think its health and well-being are worth more than a crusade?"

Absolutely, and I find it absurd you should assume otherwise. Nowhere in my posts did I suggest I was not concerned with the quality of the dog I get. I'm simply saying that I see beyond that. After all, I did ask for reputable breeders, did I not? Though, I would have thought on a forum like this, it would be a given. 

Going along your line of reasoning, would you purchase a dog from a puppy mill, if there was a way to guarantee that the pup would be in good health and temperament throughout its life?


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## atravis

"Going along your line of reasoning, would you purchase a dog from a puppy mill, if there was a way to guarantee that the pup would be in good health and temperament throughout its life?"

Depends. I find it impossible to imagine a puppy mill scenario producing healthy animals, as by definition, they are simply milling out dogs... mass producing... not focusing on temperament or the specifics of each individual animal.

If they WERE, then could you even call them a puppy mill? 
Then again, if they truly WERE, and I knew for fact that my dog would be 100% health and temperamentally sound, then maybe I would. 

Heck, this fictitious puppy mill you speak of would be doing a better job than many breeders already out there, if such was truly the case.


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## Rei

Also, if a group of breeders began campaigning for DDR GSDs to become a separate breed, and formed their own new breed club, and showed them and worked them as a breed separate from German Shepherds, while another group of breeders did not do so, and remained breeding them as German Shepherd Dogs, and both groups of breeders offered well bred dogs and pups, which would you turn to? Or would there, in your mind, be no difference at all? Or at least, no concern of yours?


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## Rei

In regards to the puppy mill response, it was completely hypothetical. The point of the question was "IF" and posed to give you an opportunity to see from a different perspective and give a response. 

It was really another way of asking, "is really getting a good dog then one and only concern of a buyer?". A puppy mill was the first scenerio that came into mind. Would you support a practice you don't believe is right, over a practice you do? Would you really purchase from a mill churning out pups and neglecting their breeding dogs over a small hobby breeder?


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## atravis

I would go to the breeder who had the better dogs. Period.


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## Rei

And how do you judge "better"? Same health tests, they participate in shows, performance sports, etc. Better is highly subjective.


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## atravis

Better for ME.

I don't care about what their ideals of "correct" or "incorrect" are. If they don't think the dogs should be considered the same breed, fine. It is of no significance to me. Call it a "Flooferdoodle Delux" if you must, so long at it is the same formerly-DDR dog that I've come to know and love, then I'm happy.

I still want the basics, of course. I want the health testing, and I want that raw ability.

But a rose by any other name, ya know?


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## Isabelle

I dont have anything to say as regards to the original post but just wanted to say that i too would not want to see the white german shepherd become a seperate breed- its not a seperate breed!! I dont understand why they should make it seperate.


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## Doc

Alice Horton's Snowcloud Kennels is no longer in operation. She had more titled White German Shepherds then any kennel. Her bloodlines are now with Minter Shepherds.

1 Snowcloud Bloodlines


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## LaRen616

Wow. Let's all just get along people. Good debate though  As much as I love my boy, he did not come from a good breeder. He is beautiful and smart and sweet and the love of my life BUT his breeder did not care for quality, she was in it for the money. I strongly believe that you should not breed a dog unless it is a great model of the breed. I didn't want to spend over a $1000 on a puppy. I was 21 and just wanted a GSD for a companion not a show dog. I spent $650 on him. I now know that if you are looking to buy a purebred top quality puppy your going to have to spend alot more money. If I ever choose to go through a breeder again I am going to pay alot more than $650. Also WGSD are beautiful. They are GSD's their just a different color. If they want to keep it a seperate breed than we need to have a seperate breed for black GSD, liver GSD, Sable GSD, Panda GSD, Cream GSD. It's ridiculous. Stupid like the whole Irish Setter, Red & White Setter. It's the same breed just a different color!


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## Furricane

This breeder has a real nice WGSD line. She breeds some conformation and also has had some service dogs come out of her lines as well. Here's a link to their website.

Hoofprint Farm and Lynsdens Kennels

Also Tenderluv kennels has some nice sheps as well, although Martha mainly does conformation with her lines. I got a chance to see her dogs when I was looking around for a pup, her dogs are gorgeous but a bit too fine featured for my personal taste. No website for her, but if you look up her kennel name you should get some results and a phone number at least.

Ravenna Kennels. They don't exclusively breed WGSD's but they have some good looking dogs and frequently get white pups in their litters, as well as some long coats every so often. This is their website.

Ravenna Kennels - Home

Second Wind Farm. I don't know much about them, but they do not exclusively breed WGSD's either. Rather they have one white female and they get the occasional white pup. However what I like about them is they are a smaller breeder who feed their dogs a raw diet. This is their website.

Second Wind Farm ? Breeders of quality German Shepherds in Northeastern Pennsylvania

One of my personal favorite kennels though would have to be Baughman Kennels. Their dogs are stunning and they get long coats every so often as well. They are located in Indiana. Here is their website.

BAUGHMAN GERMAN SHEPHERD - Home

Not sure if this was what you were looking for, but these are some of the kennels I 've looked at many times when considering my next WGSD. Finally the White Shepherd Club of Canada has a whole list of breeders you can check out in Canada and the United States, complete with contact information. Hope this helps and good luck.

WSCC breeders


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## arycrest

Doc said:


> Alice Horton's Snowcloud Kennels is no longer in operation. She had more titled White German Shepherds then any kennel. Her bloodlines are now with Minter Shepherds.
> 
> 1 Snowcloud Bloodlines


Just curious, what statistics are you basing this cliam on?


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## arycrest

The biggest difference between those who breed the WHITE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS versus WHITE SHEPHERDS is the politics of breed separation. Clubs that support the whites staying within the German Shepherd breed are the White German Shepherd Dog Club, Int'l Inc. and the White German Shepherd Dog Club of America. The clubs that support breed separation are the American White Shepherd Association and the White Shepherd Club of Canada.

It's not unheard of for members of one political view to show in club's shows that have the opposing political views.

One of the major reasons for the political division of the groups is that those who oppose breed separation do so because of the limited gene pool of an all white shepherd breed versus the vast gene pool of the German Shepherd Dog.

The WGSD breeders breed more towards the style you would find in the AKC breed ring while the WS breeders try more for the square style (for lack of a better description). I honestly haven't heard of any true differences between the two styles as far as temperament is concerned. 

As far as where they show, keep in mind it's far easier for breeders in the US to show under UKC than it is for the Canadians. Both styles show in UKC and various rare breed shows in addition to the shows sanctioned by the Clubs mentioned above. And yes, it's true that some breeders/owners have whites registered as GSDs with AKC/CKC and registered as WSs with the UKC. 

I'm not saying they don't exist, but I don't know of any breeders in any of these clubs who don't register their dogs with their respective kennel clubs as German Shepherd Dogs (AKC or CKC).

I personally support the view point of the WGSDCII and WGSDCA, I also like their style of dogs. *BUT* ... if I found a dog I liked, I would purchase a dog from a breeder that supports AWSA or WSCC without batting an eye. IMHO, Joanne Chanyi, Hoofprint, is an awesome breeder who has a reputation for not only breeding sound dogs physically and mentally, but she also has a reputation for honesty and integrity.


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## Rei

No hostility coming from me, my apologies if it appeared that way. Bottom line is, Lex, what's better for me is different from what's better for you, obviously, so why argue the fact? I didn't mean to start a debate, and if that's what you're looking for, please start a separate thread on this (maybe too late, now, though).

From here on out, only breeder suggestions/comments please. Thanks 

Arycrest - thank you for your input, I was hoping you would see this thread. I've always valued what you have to say, especially regarding this topic. As a clarification, I am not outright opposed to the White Shepherd breed. I feel like I haven't learned nearly enough to have such an opinion, but only feel that at this point, I'd prefer a breeder who bred and registered their dogs as German Shepherds. I have most definitely heard great things about Hoofprint, and if one day I change my mind, my first choice would be Hoofprint dogs, or Snowcloud lines. 

Thanks again for your post and thoughts.



Doc said:


> Alice Horton's Snowcloud Kennels is no longer in operation. She had more titled White German Shepherds then any kennel. Her bloodlines are now with Minter Shepherds.
> 
> 1 Snowcloud Bloodlines





Furricane said:


> This breeder has a real nice WGSD line. She breeds some conformation and also has had some service dogs come out of her lines as well. Here's a link to their website.
> 
> Hoofprint Farm and Lynsdens Kennels
> 
> Also Tenderluv kennels has some nice sheps as well, although Martha mainly does conformation with her lines. I got a chance to see her dogs when I was looking around for a pup, her dogs are gorgeous but a bit too fine featured for my personal taste. No website for her, but if you look up her kennel name you should get some results and a phone number at least.
> 
> Ravenna Kennels. They don't exclusively breed WGSD's but they have some good looking dogs and frequently get white pups in their litters, as well as some long coats every so often. This is their website.
> 
> Ravenna Kennels - Home
> 
> Second Wind Farm. I don't know much about them, but they do not exclusively breed WGSD's either. Rather they have one white female and they get the occasional white pup. However what I like about them is they are a smaller breeder who feed their dogs a raw diet. This is their website.
> 
> Second Wind Farm ? Breeders of quality German Shepherds in Northeastern Pennsylvania
> 
> One of my personal favorite kennels though would have to be Baughman Kennels. Their dogs are stunning and they get long coats every so often as well. They are located in Indiana. Here is their website.
> 
> BAUGHMAN GERMAN SHEPHERD - Home
> 
> Not sure if this was what you were looking for, but these are some of the kennels I 've looked at many times when considering my next WGSD. Finally the White Shepherd Club of Canada has a whole list of breeders you can check out in Canada and the United States, complete with contact information. Hope this helps and good luck.
> 
> WSCC breeders


A big thanks for all the links, I'll keep them bookmarked and take a look at each and every one once I get the chance.


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## doggiedad

they're being thought of as different but they're white GSD's, yes?



Emoore said:


> Sounds like there are 2 subsets of WGSD breeders: the ones who want to keep WGSDs as a part of the larger German Shepherd breed, just as a different color, and those who think that White Shepherds should be a separate breed and are working to make it so. The former compete their dogs as German Shepherds in UKC shows while the latter compete as rare breeds under the heading "White Shepherd." The OP is looking for the former type breeder. Am I right?


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## arycrest

You mentioned Atlas earlier - he's a beautiful boy who has produced some really nice dogs including an AKC Champion/CKC Champion (Eclipse's Bittersweet Solitude who's colored of course). 

Some of the active breeders I like who haven't been mentioned include Vantasia/Sugarloaf in PA, and Sandhill in IA.
Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds
Sandhill Shepherds - Iowa


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## GranvilleGSD

arycrest said:


> You mentioned Atlas earlier


Did you look at Atlas' breeder? I've seen Donna at several UKC shows, and they do not show under the White Shepherd class, they show in the regular GSD class.
Eclipse Kennels - German Shepherds and Berger Picards


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## ShepherdsField

If you are looking for a long-coat white, try www.kaufmanfarm.com. Also Regalwise and Sandhills Kennels breed whites. 

Our older two wgsds were Snowclouds, we have one left, but our 4 year old white and six month old puppy come from breeders who do not specifically breed whites. Our 4 year old was the only white that ever popped up in any of his litters. 

We love whites and are of the oppinion that they are just GSD's who happen to be white. GSD's are a breed that come in more than one color. Just as a black GSD is not a separate breed, neither is a white.


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## katieliz

there are politics and opinions and then, as others have already pointed out, there are genetics. genetically a german shepherd dog, if not outcrossed with another breed, is a german shepherd dog. no matter what color he/she is. everyone is free to support whatever cause and/or practices they wish tho.


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## Rei

arycrest said:


> You mentioned Atlas earlier - he's a beautiful boy who has produced some really nice dogs including an AKC Champion/CKC Champion (Eclipse's Bittersweet Solitude who's colored of course).
> 
> Some of the active breeders I like who haven't been mentioned include Vantasia/Sugarloaf in PA, and Sandhill in IA.
> Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds
> Sandhill Shepherds - Iowa


Yes, Soli was who I was referring to when I talked about one kennel producing an AKC/CKC Ch. with a white parent. I've heard her temperament is wonderful, as well. I remember talking about her in a thread going on at one point about the different types of GSDs - aesthetically, I think she is a lovely bitch. :wub:



shepherdmom12 said:


> Did you look at Atlas' breeder? I've seen Donna at several UKC shows, and they do not show under the White Shepherd class, they show in the regular GSD class.
> Eclipse Kennels - German Shepherds and Berger Picards


What do you personally think of Donna? I think she just recently bred a bitch she co-owns with Tracie of Atlas Kennels to her stud Polar. 

She does produce nice dogs, and another breeder I am considering is a small hobby breeder who owns two whites (one from and co-owned with Eclipse and another bred by her) and breeds once a year or so.


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## unloader

I know you said you wanted recommendations and not anything more about ws vs wgsd, but I found this thread that was an interesting read. It is a very civil discussion about why some choose breed separation vs no separation: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/95719-what-would-you-support.html#post1301475

From all of my research, it seems that the AWSA has a lot of great healthy dogs, and in my opinion, it was easier for me to find a reputable AWSA breeder vs a wgsd breeder.


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## Jessiewessie99

I dont know any, but White GSDs are pretty.I might want one in the future.=)


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## tkarsjens

I came across this thread and was surprised to see myself and Atlas being discussed.  Thank you Rei for the nice comments on Atlas. He's a great dog and I'm thrilled with him. He's got just about the best temperament I could hope for and even now in semi-retirement at age 8, he's super active. I love what he's produced as well.

In regards to the topic of White German Shepherd vs. White Shepherd - of course they're genetically the same breed. The difference lies in two things. First, the political goals of breeders. Some people want a seperate breed for white GSDs and they breed/show as White Shepherds. Those of us like me who think this is silly, breed/show as German Shepherds. The other difference is structure. There is often (not always but often) a distinct difference in structure between the two types of breeders. They are breeding to different standards and thus there is a difference.

Those that breed as German Shepherds also tend to do a lot more breeding with colored dogs rather than just white to white. As you mentioned, Atlas has produced many colored pups as well as white.

It's a personal preference which you want to go with of course. I will add that many of the breeders listed in this thread breed White Shepherds. There are only a couple of the listed ones who breed German Shepherds.

You're right I don't breed my dogs myself, but I'm pretty plugged in on other breeders and if you like Atlas then in theory you and I would agree on a type of dog we like. So I'd be glad to offer feedback on your search if you want to contact me directly.

I can't speak highly enough of Eclipse Kennels. I bought Atlas from them of course, but went back for three more dogs. Donna is extremely knowledgable about GSDs and plans her breeding which so much forethought. She has a real vision for what she wants to produce in her breeding program. IMO, it's so important that a breeder have a clear roadmap for their breeding program and not breed randomly.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## EclipseKennels

Now I know why my ears were ringing so much 

Hi, I'm Donna Beadle with Eclipse Kennels. Thank you to those that have complimented my dogs and breeding program, I really appreciate it.

I'm a BIG TIME believer in keeping the white coated dog as part of the GSD, whether that means as a DQ or not. I see no reason to separate the breed merely based on coat color. While I love conformation, that's the only thing in AKC the white coated GSD can't compete in and I won't risk my breed just for that privilege, I'll just go show my "colored" dogs there 

The white dog is genetically a GSD and the white coat has been part of the GSD breed from the beginning. Any day of the week I would take a larger gene pool over a smaller one, especially with a breed that is riddled with health issues. 

While people might not think the dogs look differently (which I'd disagree), it is a big deal to choose a breeder that breeds either the white GSD or the White Shepherd based on what you believe the dog is. This is because in UKC, they are registered as two separate breeds, the white GSD as a GSD and the White Shepherd as a White Shepherd. I also feel that anyone that gets into whites that plans on breeding or showing, needs to pick one or the other because once you do, it's hard to turn back or change your mind. Plus, they are bred to different standards. 

I'm happy to give any insight or answer any questions you all have. 

Donna Beadle
Eclipse Kennels - German Shepherds and Berger Picards


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## unloader

EclipseKennels said:


> While people might not think the dogs look differently (which I'd disagree), it is a big deal to choose a breeder that breeds either the white GSD or the White Shepherd based on what you believe the dog is. Plus, they are bred to different standards.
> 
> Donna Beadle
> Eclipse Kennels - German Shepherds and Berger Picards


I just compared breed standards between the wgsdca to the awsa; I can't find any difference between the two besides slightly different wording. Can you point me to how their standards differ and how they look different? 

To me it sounds all political, but I am still learning


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## EclipseKennels

Sure. It is political definitely but there are differences in the standards as well. 

Along with variation in length and height, the GSD is known as a movement breed and one of the biggest aspects that determines movement is the the front and rear angulation of the dog. The WGSDCA standard mimics the GSDCA standard asking for a shoulder angle of 90 degrees or as stated "right angle." The AWSA standard asks for that angle to be 102 degrees. The shoulder angle affects the front movement and reach of the dog. The WS would be more straight in the front because it has a more open shoulder angle. 

Both standards state that the rear angle should mirror that of the front. In this case, the White Shepherd would be straighter in the rear than the white GSD because the rear angle on to dog would be more open than that of the white GSD. These angles also affect carry through and drive of the dog. The white shepherd would have less crossover than a white GSD (also body length plays a part in this).

Also the AWSA standard does not fault long coats as the white GSD and GSD standard do. And the standard for the tail carriage of the dog is different. The AWSA standard permits the tail being raised above the plain of the back when in motion (gay tail). Tail carriage, especially in the GSD ring, is never to break the plane of the back.

Another thing that should be considered is what is actually being shown vs. the standard. As we all know, while conformation should be about the standard this is not always the case. I will say there is great variation in the whites out there (regardless if they are being shown as a WS or GSD) but there are variations in the standard so while the dogs look similar, there are some mechanics of the dogs that are different. 

If the standards weren't different, UKC shouldn't have them showing as two different breeds since white is an accepted color in the UKC GSD standard


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## unloader

Thank you for your reply. One other question if you don't mind? I notice that there are many dogs that are shown in wgsdca and awsa as well as the wscc, how is this possible if they have different breed standards? An example of this would be Sugarloaf's Merlin. He won ukc, wgsdca, wgsdcii, AND awsa titles. Thank you in advance!


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## EclipseKennels

You'd have to ask the judges  I do think part of it is education. I don't think all judges understand the difference. I know when I started showing UKC, there were some judges that didn't understand why there were two white dogs in the herding group ring. 

Also, the White Shepherd is in its infancy when it comes to being a separate breed. Most of the white GSDs and WS of today still have common ancestry. There haven't been enough generations to make much of a distinction. There also are some breeders that are still breeding white GSDs with White Shepherds or White Shepherds to "colored" GSDs. There won't be two distinct breeds until the gene pools are completely split from one another and each breeds true to its breed standard.


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## EclipseKennels

I should caveat my posts as well. Eventhough there are differences in the breed standards, I don't feel the white coat should be separated from the GSD breed. Obviously, the WS is from the GSD so those traits/differences are in the GSD breed. A breed usually has a variety of type within the breed. My issue is that I don't want to breed those traits as the standard for the breed nor do I feel that dividing a gene pool is smart.


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## Rei

Donna - a big thanks to you for taking the time to come onto this board and share your knowledge. A great deal of what I've learned about white German Shepherds have come (sometimes indirectly) from you and Tracie.


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## EclipseKennels

Not a problem Rei! Thank you for the compliment! Feel free to contact me anytime privately as well if you have questions.

Donna


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## unloader

Thank you for answering my questions!


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## EclipseKennels

Not a problem. Happy to.

Donna


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## mirlacca

Don't dismiss a breeder of "White Shepherds" too quickly. I got a white shepherd bitch from Reeves Royal Acres, and she was registered as a white GSD. Reeves Royal Acres

Also, if you're doing research on the color, do check into the White Shepherd Genetics Project at White Shepherd Genetics Project - Home Page. The database will tell you exactly what problems have been identified and what lines they come from. I really applaud the breeders for doing this, and I wish the standard-colored GSDs had something similar.


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## White German Shepherd

As you can see from my name, I know White GSD's quite well. In my experience the best WGS breeder was Hockley Kennels, Furrari Kennels, Tenderluv Kennels, HoofPrint Kennels, and Sandhill Kennels. You can also look at the American White Shepherd Assoication (www.awsa.org) for a bunch of registered breeders. Take a look at the kennels I suggested though. COntact me if you have any questions. Also each Kennel that I listed has a website so you can view their dogs.


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## White German Shepherd

I made a mistake in myabove post the link the the AWSA is AWSACLUB.com: Home of the American White Shepherd Association and the White Shepherd Club of Canada (WSCC) is WSCC White Shepherd Club of Canada


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## Whitedog404

While this is a lovely dog, it doesn't have a strictly GSD appearance to me. I have a large WGSD, in fact, he's the second I've had, and they both have the structure of a traditional GSD with dark eyes, noses, lips and very white coats. This one looks very creamy and soft, and the nose looks fairly pink or a snow nose. It's just me talking, but if I were looking for a WGSD, then I wouldn't go for this look.


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## White German Shepherd

Whitedog404 said:


> While this is a lovely dog, it doesn't have a strictly GSD appearance to me. I have a large WGSD, in fact, he's the second I've had, and they both have the structure of a traditional GSD with dark eyes, noses, lips and very white coats. This one looks very creamy and soft, and the nose looks fairly pink or a snow nose. It's just me talking, but if I were looking for a WGSD, then I wouldn't go for this look.


Yeah, I see alot of Snow noses, these are faults, good WGS breeders strive for black noses.


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## tkarsjens

White German Shepherd said:


> Yeah, I see alot of Snow noses, these are faults, good WGS breeders strive for black noses.


While it is a fault, I wouln't say good breeders strive for them across the board. Yes, good breeders try to breed to get every good trait they can, but there are soooo many more important structural traits than snow nose. I myself have done breedings as a stud owner when I know I would get snow noses, but it was the best breeding for structure, movement and temperament. 

The dog that Whitedog404 was commenting on, I think, is mine. Yup, he has snow nose and overall doesn't have the greatest pigment. I'll be the first to admit that. But to say he doesn't have the stucture of a GSD is absurd. He's currently ranked #2 in the UKC top ten as a GSD (not as a White Shepherd) and he has 9 Best in Show wins to his credit. Structurally he is very much a GSD as evaluated by many, many judges. He's been the #1 white GSD in conformation in UKC for eight years running.

I think it's possible Whitedog404 is thinking along the lines of a White Shepherd - i.e. those that want to seperate the breed. They tend to breed for a squarer, less angulated dog and their dogs tend to have very dark pigment and very white coats. 

For me and for the lines this dog is from, the emphasis is on movement, both sidgait and an overall flying trot as well as correct structure, temperment, etc. In order to continue to get these traits, we breed to a lot of colored GSDs. That tends to add more cream in the coat, but it also gives you much better movement and structure (from a GSD perspective). I'll sacrifice and live with a snow nose for a breeding that gives better structure. 

The pure white coat and pitch black nose is beautiful and I know it's important to some people. But there are good breeders who also feel there are more important things.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## deor

In many cases a white shepherd in my mind is closer to the Max Stepanitz original standard than many of the animal we see in the show ring today. In temperament, gait, angulation of hips and drive. There is a breeder outside of Medaryville Indian that had a beautiful line based on a wonderful dog named CID. More of a collector of Shepherds that a commercial breeder, hasn’t updated his site in years but give it a try at Tumbledown Kennels: Page 1
Name is John Peck **Please PM for phone number**. Haven’t been down their in a long time but if he no longer ships PM me and I would be glad to help. Last time I visited he also had started a line of Brindles, thought to be extinct


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## Whitedog404

TKARSJENS: "The dog that Whitedog404 was commenting on, I think, is mine. Yup, he has snow nose and overall doesn't have the greatest pigment. I'll be the first to admit that. But to say he doesn't have the stucture of a GSD is absurd. He's currently ranked #2 in the UKC top ten as a GSD (not as a White Shepherd) and he has 9 Best in Show wins to his credit. Structurally he is very much a GSD as evaluated by many, many judges. He's been the #1 white GSD in conformation in UKC for eight years running.

I think it's possible Whitedog404 is thinking along the lines of a White Shepherd - i.e. those that want to seperate the breed. They tend to breed for a squarer, less angulated dog and their dogs tend to have very dark pigment and very white coats."

*Well, heck, I'm all corn-fused over the WGSD dilemma, yet again. But, you "think" that's your dog? He's a handsome devil either way.*


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## Whitedog404

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008-07-11_White_German_Shepherd_pup_chilling_at_the_Coker_Arboretum.jpg

I admit that this what I visualize when I think of a WGSD. And this is almost identical to mine. (Except mine seems a bit heftier and has a very gay tail that's nearly a circle at times. Not sure what happened there. And is the only way to get photos on here to use something like Photobucket? I could have sworn I put photos of the puppy here a while back with cut and paste. Another topic, I realize.) I always comment that when I see photos of WGSD, even very old ones from decades ago, the dogs have a nearly identical look, especially that smile. So, when I saw the handsome, long coated creamy dog, it just wasn't what comes to mind. But, I realize that what I think has little to do with actual confirmation. But, this is the look that appeals to me when it comes to WGSD. Not to be confused with the White shepherd, which still baffles me.


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