# Is this dog a sable?



## Liesje

Is this dog a sable or a blanket black a tan? Can full, dark saddle/blanket but still be a sable? How do you know for sure what the dog is?



















Pedigree - mother is sable, father black and tan
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/607108.html


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## onyx'girl

From the look of the abdomen, I say blanket B&T.
We were just discussing this today at the club I was at. Sable will be darker in the underbelly, no breaking in the color pattern.


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## Fodder

whats leading you to believe he_ could be_ sable? or are you asking/clarifying for someone else?

i'd say hands down that he's a b/t blanket back... even 'patterned sable' would be too much of a stretch for me.

this is as close to a 'saddle' on a sable that i've seen: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/12476.html


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## onyx'girl

This is why we were discussing it at the club:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/434588.html
From afar I said Tobi could pass as a B & T til you ran your hands thru his coat against the grain. 
He is a beautiful red sable (which I knew), and there was discussion after that about pattern,etc. Which then went into bi-color as well...


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## DancingCavy

What'd he look like as a puppy? That's the easiest way to tell.









Based on those pictures, I'd say blanket black and tan.


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## Ocean

Don't get confused between individual sable hair and a sable colored dog. Any color of GSD can have individual sable hair strands, for example, the bitch stripe on B & Ts.
Also, sable colored dogs can sometimes have a saddle pattern or a blanket pattern.
I've always wondered if the pedigree of Timo Berrekasten was accurate since he does not show any sable dogs in 7 generations or more.
Is it possible for sable to suddenly pop up after many many generations of B & Ts?
Or did a sable working line dog jump the fence while momma was in season?


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## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlSable will be darker in the underbelly, no breaking in the color pattern.


I have never heard this before. Can you explain what you mean? I think maybe I don't understand the termanology. Bison is a sable and his belly is the lightest part of his body. You can kinda see from the color of the inside of his right knee.

As mentioned, he is a different color at the base of the fur. (if you pet him backward you can seek it)

Bison on the right.


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## onyx'girl

Timo was stunning! But, yeah, how'd that happen...


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## onyx'girl

The belly can still be lighter, but you'll see the banding in the guardhair thruout, not a solid type light hair. I tend to look at the neck coloring too. Sables usually have that lighter collar area but not always & striping down the center of the neck.


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## Ruthie

Yes, the belly hair is still two-toned, just very light. He has a very distinctive color line. Thanks for explaining. I am still learning all the termanology.

OP, sorry for the interruption.


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## kelso

I am no expert but would def say blanket....even though that gets confusing as there is some "bicolors" that I am sure some would say were more blanket...so in a strech the dog posted could be a full saddle......I would say blanket...but then again dogs that look bi are way darker than this dog and could be called blanket.. but that is more of a "pattern" issue than a sable vs non sable thing???

Just semantics...this site does a pretty good job of breaking things down?? http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html

But I would say a sable is a sable based on "banding" like said above and in the article. If the hairs are banded = sable.... very distinct with a dark tip and a lighter band of coloring on the same hair (ranging from white to deep red) on the same hair as the dark tip.

A sable is a sable! Hard to say from a pic, and I would never have known except for when you have a sable you know a sable! lol.

Like your girl, she is a saddle patterned sable right? (Kenya)


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderwhats leading you to believe he_ could be_ sable? or are you asking/clarifying for someone else?


Just trying to learn how the genetics work. Since the mother is a sable, he could be a sable, no? I'm just wondering how you tell since some of the really true "black sables" look almost bi-color to me. Does a dog have to have a "salt and pepper" saddle in order to be sable?


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: kelso
> Like your girl, she is a saddle patterned sable right? (Kenya)


Yes, I think she is patterned sable. She has a saddle (which is salt and pepperish when you brush it backwards) and is very light (no tar heels or toe-pencils). Her belly is cream/white just like the dog pictured. But both Kenya's parents are sable.


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## Amaruq

I think the dog is b/t (blanket or saddle would not make a difference because he would still genetically be b/t).


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## JKlatsky

I would say B/T also. 

Sure you can have sable dogs that look very close to saddles. We train with someone that had a patterned sable and a B/T and from any kind of distance it was very difficult to tell them apart. But when you got close enough and really looked you could see where the hair wasn't perfectly in line there would be obvious color underneath. It was just that the black tips on those hairs were much longer. Each of those hairs was still banded, but with much less tan. Of course it's harder to tell in pictures where there isn't that much detail. 

Personally I think it also has to do with the season. During certain times the sable dog can appear lighter or darker depending on where their coat is.

All of my dogs have a light belly, and they are all sable. And most really dark sables have a lightness around the eyes that you don't usually see in Bi-Colors. I also agree the easiest way to tell is puppy pictures.


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## Brightelf

Black/Tan, not sable.


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## Brightelf

And, even Timo hasn't a truly solid saddle, it's sabled throughout.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/20964.html


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## Catu

Diabla's father is a sable too, and she is not. Sable is dominant over B/T wich means that the sable parents need to be heterozygous to sable and b/t and the other parent needs to be b/t too


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## selzer

looks black and tan to me. For a bi-color, there is usually penciling on the toes. Sables I do not have any experience with. I think they change a lot more than black and tans. Also, they have similarity around the eyes that black and tans do not seem to have. Cannot explain it, but this dog looks black and tan to me.


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## Chris Wild

Definitely black and tan. Not sable. And not nearly dark enough to be a bi-color.


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## lhczth

This dog is a blanket black/tan. Some where behind his mother is black. His mother's mother was also a blanket black/tan.


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## Doc

I agree, it's a black/tan blanket.

The question may be - is "sable" a coat pattern or coloring of individual hairs? Or is it both? I think we have all seen "sable" saddles, blankets, etc.

Also, doesn't "sable" German shepherds come in many different colors? Black sable, tan sable, red sable, silver sable, etc.? So I'm not convinced that "sable" is a pattern like blanket and saddle, but rather a marking/coloration of individual hairs. 

So what makes a dog "sable"? Just a rhetorical question but feel free to expound on it if you like.


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## Liesje

Yep, Doc that's what I was wondering, more of a general pondering of what is a sable. My Kenya is called a "patterned" sable because she has a dark muzzle and a saddle, so I was just wondering if there's a sable with a saddle, can there be a sable that looks like a blanket or a bicolor?

Also with this dog I found it interesting that a line of typical show black and reds plus a line of sables and blank and reds produced that nice blanket. If the dog is not sable, does the sable coming from the motherline cause the blank and tan to be expressed as that rich blanket black?

The dog piqued my interest because I don't recall ever seeing a through-and-through German show line with that color pattern before.


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## Chris Wild

Color and what we'd call pattern (saddle, blanket, etc...) are different things governed by different genes.

One set of genes determines if a dog is sable, black/tan, bi-color, solid.

A different set of genes, or rather sets of sets of genes, on completely different loci, determine the extension of black pigment on a dog in different areas: saddle, mask, mantle. This is where extensive vs faded saddles, masks and mantles come from. It is also what governs whether a dog is a "saddle" or "blanket" pattern, simply by determining the extension of expression of black pigment in the coat.

This is why some black/tans are saddles, others blankets, other's faded saddles. And why some sables seem more patterned as well. All depends on where the extension locus tells the black pigment to go. And since there are separate loci for different areas of the dog, it is why it is possible for a dog to have lots of black on it's back, but still have a faded muzzle, or mantle, or both.

And then there are of course yet other completely different sets of genes on different loci that can lead to white masking, blue or liver dilution of black pigment, and govern the hue of the tan pigment (silver, tan, red, etc...)


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## Doc

As a general rule, if one of the parents is a sable, then at least 1/2 of the litter will be sable. The other half can be something other than "sable".

Does your Kenya have a "sable" color saddle? (individual hairs are banded - black on tip and other color behind that? My sable gal's mom was a sable saddle (her saddle was actually sable) and her dad was a black and silver saddle and she is a tan sable ( no saddle or blanket pattern).


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> Also with this dog I found it interesting that a line of typical show black and reds plus a line of sables and blank and reds produced that nice blanket. If the dog is not sable, does the sable coming from the motherline cause the blank and tan to be expressed as that rich blanket black?


It has nothing to do with sable from the motherline, but rather the genes for extension of black pigment. Many Euro show lines are lacking in this area, which is why faded saddles are common. Most working lines and American lines are not, which is why they tend to be "darker", with most black/tans from these lines having big saddles or blankets. Regardless of what color genes they carry (sable, black/tan, etc..) genes for extensive black pigment are most common, so the dogs are darker. In this dog's case, his big blanket came from that. Didn't matter if those dogs were sables or not. What mattered is that they carried genes for extensive black pigment expression.


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## Chris Wild

Here is an excellent example of a patterned sable. This is the "Tobi" mentioned earlier in the thread. This dog is clearly a sable. All "black" hairs are banded. But his genetics determined that his markings be distributed in more of a patterned way compared to most sables. 




















And another sable often mistaken for black/tan. This dog's AKC papers even said "black/red". But he's actually sable, just a very dark one where the fact that the hairs are banded isn't very obvious unless looking closely.


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## ahlamarana

Ah, Tobi


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## phgsd

Here is another one whose AKC papers say black and tan...she is also a sable.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Does your Kenya have a "sable" color saddle? (individual hairs are banded - black on tip and other color behind that? My sable gal's mom was a sable saddle (her saddle was actually sable) and her dad was a black and silver saddle and she is a tan sable ( no saddle or blanket pattern).


Not sure but I think so b/c it looks "salt and pepper" not solid black. But she's a pretty light sable (no tar heels, no toe penciling, white belly). Both her parents are/were sable.


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## Liesje

FWIW, I saw a sibling of the original dog and he looks the same (blanket) and is a long coat.


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## Barb E

Depending on the picture Dante sometimes looks Black and Tan - but when seen in real life you can tell that his saddle (blanket?) is sable.
He too has a light belly

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/picturegallery/2696.html


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## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeFWIW, I saw a sibling of the original dog and he looks the same (blanket) and is a long coat.


My Kacie looks the same and is a long coat,too. 









Tobi was the reason for our conversation on color at the club! He is so rich in coloring!


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## JKlatsky

My dog's sire is a very dark blanket patterned sable. His mask and his black markings are dark, but his legs are tan and he has the light belly. Not perhaps the best example because he is blowing his coat in this picture and it makes it easier to see that he is sable...but when he's well groomed it's harder to see.


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## selzer

What is the difference between a washed out black and tan and a sable with a pattern? Cujo was a little grey when born, and his saddle is lighter with the other color showing through, I just figured his pigment was not good and he is a washed out black and tan. Sire and dam are black and tan/ black and red. Sire is black and red all the way back, but the dam's sire is sable. I thought for a sable, all hairs had to be dipped/banded in black, so all that tan on the legs, not having black would not be sable. Where I read that, I don't know. 

Why does the AKC recognize no markings for this breed. Is it that it would be too difficult to put them all down. Tar heels, saddle, blanket, penciling, etc. or is it that when most pups are registered, these markings are not completely set so it would be difficult.


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## onyx'girl

Do you have pics of Cujo as a pup? And now?


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## selzer

Well here goes. 

Cujo is the little one three from the left:


















Yellow collar:









At six months:


















I will try to get a more current pic of the boy. I have some at home, just not here.


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## GSDluver4lyfe

> Originally Posted By: selzerWhat is the difference between a washed out black and tan and a sable with a pattern? Cujo was a little grey when born, and his saddle is lighter with the other color showing through, I just figured his pigment was not good and he is a washed out black and tan. Sire and dam are black and tan/ black and red. Sire is black and red all the way back, but the dam's sire is sable. I thought for a sable, all hairs had to be dipped/banded in black, so all that tan on the legs, not having black would not be sable. Where I read that, I don't know.
> 
> Why does the AKC recognize no markings for this breed. Is it that it would be too difficult to put them all down. Tar heels, saddle, blanket, penciling, etc. or is it that when most pups are registered, these markings are not completely set so it would be difficult.


A black and tan can LOOK or appear to be sable and an sable can LOOK black/tan. But its the genetics that matter. Two black/tans can only produce colors less dominate to that. So that would be black/tan, bi-color, or black. Two black/tans cannot produce a sable because if one of the parents carried the sable gene the dog itself would be sable. That is my understanding of the color genes. So if you breed two "black/tans" and end up with sables then one of the parents is infact genetically sable though it may appear to the naked eye that the dog is black/tan. Am I right?


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## Catu

Cujo is black and tan, I have no doubts.


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## Chris Wild

Cujo is black/tan.


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## Smithie86

I will take a picture of Qasi this weekend (Tobi nephew). Same patterned sable.

I will take a shot of one of the black sables (no question, even at this age) females from Fannie and Berlin. true black sable, not even dark...


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## JKlatsky

Cujo is definitely black and tan. When they're little sable puppies look markedly different than Black and Tan puppies. Even the really dark sables have a very light phase where they're sort of greyish. 

My puppy is a patterned sable, but he still looked like a sable puppy when he was little. 

At 4.5 weeks, with his B/T brother in the background.









6 months old. Wet but you still get the idea.


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## selzer

The pictures do not show it, but he was markedly more gray than the other pups in the litter. We actually thought he could be blue. However, he looked nothing like the little sable pup above. 

At this point his saddle is just not good and black. If you turn the hair back you can see the gray hair, even up on his neck where it is reddish tan (bitch stripe). 

I have considered him a washed out black and tan. The reason I asked this is because Lesje's picture looks not that different from what his saddle currently looks like. Only it extends down into the belly, where Cujo is very tan.


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## MelissaHoyer

I have two patterned sables - in both case they had sable dams and black/tan sires.

Here is a pic of them that shows their coloring fairly well:


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## DuncanIdaho

As far as the breeding goes, my puppies parents were both sable. He is also sable. They had 6 puppies and had 5 sable and one very black bicolor. But I know the grandfather was a solid black dog. So I guess it can skip a generation because that is the first non sable the sire has thrown. Well in 2 litters. The last litter was 4 sables.


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## keiko

MelissaHoyer said:


> I have two patterned sables - in both case they had sable dams and black/tan sires.
> 
> Here is a pic of them that shows their coloring fairly well:


Awesome dogs. Sables are the best!


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## keiko

Oh forgot to mention that Horand von Grafrath, the first GSD, was a sable!


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## rulubenc

Hello.. Is my dog's color Sable Tan or black tan? need some help, he is 6 moths old


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## Jax08

Your dog is a sable. Any word before and after that, other than "patterned" which indicates that the dog has a genetic saddle pattern, is just a word added because we are humans and have to add words.


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## rulubenc

Thanks a lot! I'm new with German Shepherds and, so I'm in the process of registering him.


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