# Ppd + sar



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Question for some of the experienced dog sport people. I found a trainer who trains SAR. I have been going and we got the obedience stuff at a level where we could move on to SAR training. So today was our first non obedience session. I get there this morning and he says we'll just go over some stuff inside and he'll show me a couple games to play at home to prime her for SAR . Doesn't want to take her outside and start tracking training because it was 2° Fahrenheit wind chill. 
So I said what if you show me the games I can play at home and we try her out in a sleeve. Athena seems to have this natural desire to bite. She's not aggressive she just seems hard wired to bite. He says sure so we go over the SAR games and move on. 
He wanted to see how she done so he had me hold her on a short leash why he came into the room wearing some wig and a bite coat. I was to say watch him he came out acting all sketchy she barked I said good girl while he ran off. Repeat repeat repeat. Once she would bark when I said watch he dropped that stuff and we got her on a sleeve. She picked up on biting the sleeve easily. We combined the two. Minus wig and coat just sleeve. I said watch he would act sketchy she would bark he would retreat. Then Repeat, with him approaching and making a move towards I say stop him she bites sleeve repeat repeat repeat. Anyway he said for first time she done really good. I wanted to see if she enjoyed bite work and she really really enjoyed it. So now I'm thinking of taking the next month or two and working on bite work and obedience. We can combine the two. And picking up on the SAR when the weather warms up a bit this spring. I have read that moist warmer air is the best environment for teaching a dog SAR. Anyone see an issue with Athena doing both. Once we would start actual SAR training that is what would be our main focus. Any downside to this that I'm not realizing.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Honest answer? I would not do both. I would also not be teaching her SAR with someone who is not an active member of a SAR team. 

I am guessing by what you wrote that you want to do tracking/trailing? Not airscent? Have you found a team? Are you going to trainings? Are you learning everything YOU need to be part of a SAR team? 

SAR is not a fair weather game. SAR is all temps. And honestly hot humid weather is harder for a dog because of how scent moves. 

SAR is looking for people that are often odd and disoriented. Strangers, who may strike out, scream, kick at the dog. 

Most, not all, reputable SAR teams will not allow a protection trained dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

All that in one session? Hmm... 

Every SAR team I've ever spoke to, will not allow bite trained dogs. So keep that in mind. Both are very time consuming, and both require different things.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Honest answer? I would not do both. I would also not be teaching her SAR with someone who is not an active member of a SAR team.
> 
> I am guessing by what you wrote that you want to do tracking/trailing? Not airscent? Have you found a team? Are you going to trainings? Are you learning everything YOU need to be part of a SAR team?
> 
> ...


 I have looked for SAR teams near me. The same result as SCH near me. Two hour drive minimum. This guy trains police, and security dogs, for departments and businesses all over the US. He knows his stuff. I have to pay a premium but driving 30 minutes compared to 2 + hours is a trade off I am willing to do.

The way it was explained to me is that tracking/trailing dogs can also be trained or will utilize air scents also but if a dog is trained in air scent it is harder to also teach tracking. 

What my intentions are is to be tool for LEO's. A certified volunteer

Say little johnny wanders off in the woods cant find him, we get called in to help find him. Alzheimers patient wanders off gets lost, maybe we get called in to help find. I have talked to numerous LEO's and firemen in towns around me. They all say the same thing. Yeah, they would like to have a handler and dog available if needed.

I understand that it is an all weather deal but if moisture in the human capillaries or whatever the heck our scent is released with freezes it is harder for the dogs to keep a scent. He wanted to start off and set her up for success and work her into more difficult situations. 

As far as people kicking, screaming, etc... I figured she would be on a long line with harness not free roaming. maybe I am mistaken on that. Maybe different circumstances will dictate that.

And finally shouldn't a proper trained bite dog only be in that mode when I tell her to be. Or only in certain situations. If we never bite on a trail and SAR is a totally separate deal then bite shouldn't be an issue.

Don't want you or anyone else to think that I don't want feed back or opinions just laying my thoughts out to see if I am crazy or if its even kind of logical.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> All that in one session? Hmm...


 Yeah, we worked her until her bite on the sleeve was not as hard as the previous bites. He said his reactions have to be the same regardless how hard she bit so he didn't want her to think she could soft bite and it be OK.
when his other trainer got there and he explained all we done he couldn't believe we got that far in her first session also. I am telling ya She is hardwired to sniff things out and bite. Wish I had video I am new to all this but she impressed me/


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

2 hours is nothing to drive. To work with a qualified team. It's pretty normal. 

How do you plan on certifying? Who is going to watch you and set up problems and test you to a standard that will hold up? 

Who is going to carry the insurance on you as a team? Who is going to have liability if your dog bites someone?(ppd or not) or if you miss someone and the family finds out you were used with no qualifications and no measurable standards? 

Yes your dog is going to be on a long line(if you plan on tracking) but it takes one second of you 30 meters behind for someone to move into your dogs space. 

As for airscent vs tracking- they both have their purpose. I have always trained airscent. Doesn't require a PLS. I have never trained a SAR tracking dog.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> 2 hours is nothing to drive. To work with a qualified team. It's pretty normal.
> 
> How do you plan on certifying? Who is going to watch you and set up problems and test you to a standard that will hold up?
> 
> Who is going to carry the insurance on you as a team? Who is going to have liability if your dog bites someone?(ppd or not) or if you miss someone and the family finds out you were used with no qualifications and no measurable standards?


 I assumed certificate would be issued same as a Leo dog or I would have to travel to get certified. Same as any other sport. Not too bad driving 2-4 hours to get certifications. Compared to driving that far for training sessions. 

The insurance, I have already thought that out. My insurance company told me that they had a person a few years ago do this and he got insurance either from the certificate issuing organization or the AKC they couldn't remember which. They can give me liability insurance but it was quite a bit cheaper through the other company. 
Paying for insurance? The good thing about running your own business is you know a lot of other business owners. I have talked to a couple businesses that are happy to sponsor us to help pay for the cost of ongoing training, insurance, and equipment etc.. Once certified. Along with my own money. 

Kind of presumptuous to assume that my dog and myself will be unqualified, and have no measurable standard. Not sure where that statement is relevant?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cdwoodcox said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> > 2 hours is nothing to drive. To work with a qualified team. It's pretty normal.
> ...


It's relevant because you never stated how you were going to be certified if not working with a team. If you find somewhere to certify a single non affiliated team, great. LE certifying agencies generally do not certify civilians without sponsorship. 

I feel very strongly about SAR. I feel very strongly that to do your best work on a consistent basis you need the support of a team of people that have done it, a lot. 

Back to your original question, a vast majority of qualified and reputable SAR teams do not allow dogs with bite work. The liability is too high.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Honest answer? I would not do both. I would also not be teaching her SAR with someone who is not an active member of a SAR team.
> 
> I am guessing by what you wrote that you want to do tracking/trailing? Not airscent? Have you found a team? Are you going to trainings? Are you learning everything YOU need to be part of a SAR team?
> 
> ...


My understanding with our local SAR team back when we were in California was that they would not even accept dogs who were SCH trained, let alone PPD. 

For exactly the above reasons--disoriented victims are often combative.

They had a strict no bite training rule.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I never put much thought into the certification part cause that's what I'm paying the trainer for. I have enough to learn and do with everything else. 

I understand that training continues after certification. The one team I have spoke with said that they do come up north occasionally and work in some of the state parks. If I get certified and wanna help and be a part then cool. 
The LE's I have spoken to have been nothing but supportive. 

So I guess besides a team not liking it. Any downside from the dogs perspective is what I am really looking for.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

CDwoodcox you called SAR a sport. This camr up on another thread awhile back. I do not consider SAR a sport. AKC Tracking is a sport, I do it with my dog. It is loads of fun for both of us....

I will say me being the type of person I am, I did drive 2 hrs to train with a kennel club that does tracking practices before season ended last fall. The bulk of training sessions I do alone but I can do that with that sport. And my dog loves winter tracking. Even something as simple as AKC tracking though..l wanted someone to watch my dog work and critique us. Also, he doesn't like people following while we track, he thinks it is a creeper and he needs to protect me, and this is something we have to train through before the test because we will be followed by people on test day and he needs to track and not worry about creepers sneaking up on me.

I get nervous under pressure. When I track alone with him there is no pressure. When I am nervous he wants to come check on me, which means he isnt tracking. These are all things we have to iron out before we can even take the TD test next spring, and no one's life is at stake. 

I am a layperson in all this with no firsthand knowledge of SAR so you can throw that big grain of salt in there.

What are this trainer's qualifications to train a SAR dog? Has he been active in SAR?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I will check with some of the LEO tomorrow and see if bite work will prohibit our chances of being able to help when certified. If so I'll stop bite work since SAR is what is our main goal is. Although all of their dogs can track and have done bite work so maybe it won't be an issue.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

@Cowboysgirl
I called it a sport simply because the one group down south that I have talked with said they do both SAR ad a sport and with lives on the line. I assumed they meant sport as in games to hone and keep the dogs sharp with out real live missing people at stake. 
The trainer has trained LE dogs for stations in numerous states. Travels to different states if LE needs help with an issue a dog may have. . Started training in the marines. Spends a lot of time training and giving support or therapy dogs to soldiers with PTSD. Does some civilian work. I met with a lot of trainers and he's the one I feel most comfortable giving my money to.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I've also heard that most SAR groups will not accept your dog if he's had any bite work training at all. I always thought this was a bit overcautious but never thought about the fact that the person you are searching for may be agitated and/or unstable, it makes perfect sense with that explanation. Also the amount of training involved in either one of those is enough to take up all of your time so it would be a huge commitment. I was talking with someone visiting our club a few months ago that does IPO and also said she does SAR with the same dog. I questioned her about the whole bite work/SAR issue and she said there are some groups that allow both. Not sure what group she was with but they were around Long Island, NY. If this is anywhere near you I could try and get more information from her.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thanks @astrovan2487 I am in Indiana so that's a long drive. Lol. 
I totally understand the issue that could arise with the two. However, I feel that a good dog should be able to Differentiate between the two with proper training. Same as if I would take her to the park or hiking in Georgia mountains next year. Some teenager comes running out behind a tree Screaming chasing his friend I don't expect mine or anyone else's dog that has done bite work to attack.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> I have looked for SAR teams near me. The same result as SCH near me. Two hour drive minimum. This guy trains police, and security dogs, for departments and businesses all over the US. He knows his stuff. I have to pay a premium but driving 30 minutes compared to 2 + hours is a trade off I am willing to do.
> 
> The way it was explained to me is that tracking/trailing dogs can also be trained or will utilize air scents also but if a dog is trained in air scent it is harder to also teach tracking.
> 
> ...


This is certainly not logical or even practical. 

Tracking missing or autistic children and Alzheimers patients is often several times harder than tracking a fleeing felon. It is equally as important and sometimes much more so. I've tracked Alzhimers patients for hours in swamps, in the winter and in the summer and located them. I've tracked missing children using a pillow case as a scent article and found them. I've tracked suicidal and medically or mentally endangered subjects and located them. It is not a sport, not a game and certainly very serious work. To not find one of these individuals is a hard thing to deal with. I've stopped tracking wanted felons because I knew they had made it through our perimeter and probably "phoned a friend." I have never given up a track or trying to locate a missing child, elderly person or an endangered person. I hate not apprehending a felon that I have tracked and it will bug me for days, but I have some relief in the fact that I or someone else will catch them tomorrow or sometime in the future. There may be no tomorrow for a missing autistic child. I tracked one recently that had drowned shortly before I started the track. We tracked about a 3/4's of a mile from the house to a park and creek / swampy area and the dog indicated in the water, our dive team recovered the 3 year old boy's body a few hours later. 

Here is a nice blog that was written about the work we do when searching for missing persons. 

Spikes K9 Fund | Spikes K9 Fund

Spikes K9 Fund | Spikes K9 Fund


The whole point is that doing SAR or trying to be a "civilian volunteer" is huge responsibility and undertaking. It is not something that you train here or there in your spare time a few days a month. I work at tracking everyday, that is our bread and butter. I can tell you that trailing or air scenting is not easy for a novice and certainly made harder with out the right dog and right training. The whole volunteer thing for a LE agency is highly unlikely to happen, unless you live in some rural area with no K-9's available for several jurisdictions.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> This is certainly not logical or even practical.
> 
> Tracking missing or autistic children and Alzheimers patients is often several times harder than tracking a fleeing felon. It is equally as important and sometimes much more so. I've tracked Alzhimers patients for hours in swamps, in the winter and in the summer and located them. I've tracked missing children using a pillow case as a scent article and found them. I've tracked suicidal and medically or mentally endangered subjects and located them. It is not a sport, not a game and certainly very serious work. To not find one of these individuals is a hard thing to deal with. I've stopped tracking wanted felons because I knew they had made it through our perimeter and probably "phoned a friend." I have never given up a track or trying to locate a missing child, elderly person or an endangered person. I hate not apprehending a felon that I have tracked and it will bug me for days, but I have some relief in the fact that I or someone else will catch them tomorrow or sometime in the future. There may be no tomorrow for a missing autistic child. I tracked one recently that had drowned shortly before I started the track. We tracked about a 3/4's of a mile from the house to a park and creek / swampy area and the dog indicated in the water, our dive team recovered the 3 year old boy's body a few hours later.
> 
> ...



Yes I live in a rural area. When I first entertained the idea I asked the local Marshall and he said yes there could be a need for us if we were certified. I have asked other officers in surrounding areas and they all have said yes when I get certified they would want my contact info and would be interested in having us as an option. Keep in mind that the county I live in has a population of 20,500.
The county North has a population of 77,000. The county East of me has a population of 33,000. County West had a population of 36,000. The county South has a population of 38,000.The resources of big cities aren't as available here. There are a few K9 dogs don't get me wrong. They all seemed like they were genuinely interested. Not that I don't feel we would have to prove ourselves and earn the chance to help. The other side of where I live is. We could get certified and train like crazy and never even be needed. No mountains, not a lot of hiking, no huge state forests, I fully know the odds of being needed are slim but if we could help even once it would be worth it.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> Thanks @astrovan2487 I am in Indiana so that's a long drive. Lol.
> I totally understand the issue that could arise with the two. However, I feel that a good dog should be able to Differentiate between the two with proper training. Same as if I would take her to the park or hiking in Georgia mountains next year. Some teenager comes running out behind a tree Screaming chasing his friend I don't expect mine or anyone else's dog that has done bite work to attack.


It's not so cut and dry. I track / trail with dogs that are trained to "find and bite." I use the same dog to track missing persons, but I can read my dog and know when I am close from the proximity alerts and behavior. I wouldn't for one second think a "good dog", will be able to distinguish between a Schizophrenic, an autistic person moving erratically, or a disorientated person that may react aggressively to you and or your dog or a "thug" trying to rob you? 

We train to encounter all of those people and we know exactly how our dogs will react. As mentioned earlier the liability would be huge.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There was some discussion of tracking with the "find and bite" dog on another thread. I was asking how that worked when police k9s track lost people (elderly or children) Might be worth a read
@Slamdunc how awful, your experience searching for the drowned child. So sorry


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> It's not so cut and dry. I track / trail with dogs that are trained to "find and bite." I use the same dog to track missing persons, but I can read my dog and know when I am close from the proximity alerts and behavior. I wouldn't for one second think a "good dog", will be able to distinguish between a Schizophrenic, an autistic person moving erratically, or a disorientated person that may react aggressively to you and or your dog or a "thug" trying to rob you?
> 
> We train to encounter all of those people and we know exactly how our dogs will react. As mentioned earlier the liability would be huge.


This guy trains police K9 dogs for multiple agencies. So I suppose all of this will be covered in my training. Until we actually start SAR training maybe I should refrain from assuming.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I did some SAR training with my girl, but decided I didn't have the time or commitment, so we switched to scent detection type work- it was actually really useful when I was working on wind farms, my dog was trained to locate birds and bats that had been killed on the turbines. But even that required certification. Dogs are also used to detect scat of endangered species, although the reliability can be a bit hit or miss in papers I've read on the topic. 

Personally, I think SAR as a hobby, particularly for a dog that sounds a bit naturally suspicious and of the bite-first variety, and with a novice handler, carries far to high liability for a variety of reasons people have mentioned.

Consider scent detection work. There are a lot of useful, real-world applications that do not involve huge odds like those in finding a lost autistic child. Some for fun, and some for real. 

SAR is a huge commitment, and I respect the people who have devoted their lives to it.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

It is a noble thing to want to help others. It is a labor of love to want to do SAR. 

It is also a tremendous amount of hard work, dedication, expense, travel and effort. I'm not sure you realize how big the commitment and effort really is nor what is involved in successfully tracking/trailing a missing person. Perhaps, you are the kind of person that is willing to make this commitment and put in the thousands of hours of training to become proficient and stay proficient at trailing? I really have no way of knowing, as I only know you by some posts on this forum. 

I know the obstacles that you would face in my area from a certification standpoint. Unless, you were affiliated with a SAR team and certify under their standards. I'm not trying to burst your bubble, just giving the reality of doing this type of work as a civilian and not connected to a SAR group.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Two hours is nothing to drive. I strongly, strongly, strongly, suggest at least going to check out the clubs and teams in your area. All this stuff is one of those "you don't know what you don't know until you realize you don't know" kinda situations. The more dogs and trainers you see work, the better feel you have for your dog and trainers. I go to every trial, open club day and seminar I can possibly go to across the country. That doesn't mean just bite sports. Everything from Police K9 trials and KNPV to Dock Diving and Flyball. The more I learn and see the better understanding I have. Happy hunting.


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## kekipi (Oct 31, 2016)

You must have hit the jackpot in location haha, out of the places I've lived Indiana had one of the highest numbers of SAR teams, located all over the state, so for the nearest one to be that far away is impressive 

Regardless of what you end up deciding about training for bite work, I still think that investing time in building a relationship with the SAR team closest to you and making the trip (when possible) for training days would be super beneficial. Even laying tracks or being a "lost person" might be useful in giving you additional insight into what your dog might experience (along with you as the handler) and thus help know what to train for/be aware of if you do end up doing bite work as well. As you note, you might not get called out often- if ever- and working even sporadically with a SAR team will help keep your skills sharp for recertification.

On that note, are you planning on certifying/through what organization? Just curious, sorry if you said that in prior comments and I missed it


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

kekipi said:


> You must have hit the jackpot in location haha, out of the places I've lived Indiana had one of the highest numbers of SAR teams, located all over the state, so for the nearest one to be that far away is impressive [emoji14
> 
> On that note, are you planning on certifying/through what organization? Just curious, sorry if you said that in prior comments and I missed it


Opposite of jackpot. The SCH club I thought I had access too was dissipated years ago, couldn't locate a SAR club near. Did find a flyball, and agility place went to try them out. Dogs seemed about as excited as getting a root canal with those. So we've been doing obedience and more obedience followed by more obedience. On the plus I have became pretty good at training basic with some advanced obedience. And I have bonded and learned a lot about my dogs with so much one on one. 

As far as getting certified Idk. I figured Brian would let me know when we get to that stage or even close. That's why I'm paying him.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Alright guys appreciate keeping it real. I knew it was gonna be a lot of work with maybe no payoff. However, I have to at least give this an honest try. If I get involved and see that for whatever it isn't going to happen or I'm wasting my time I can switch it to a different form of scent work. Or a sport where I can utilize what we've learned. I do like the idea of visiting clubs on their training days. If I recall there is a mod that lives in southern Indiana and a couple People that live in Michigan. I'm sure I could figure out what clubs are reputable and dates etc... On this forum. And keep it with in a 2-3 hour drive.


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## kekipi (Oct 31, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> Opposite of jackpot. The SCH club I thought I had access too was dissipated years ago, couldn't locate a SAR club near. Did find a flyball, and agility place went to try them out. Dogs seemed about as excited as getting a root canal with those. So we've been doing obedience and more obedience followed by more obedience. On the plus I have became pretty good at training basic with some advanced obedience. And I have bonded and learned a lot about my dogs with so much one on one.
> 
> As far as getting certified Idk. I figured Brian would let me know when we get to that stage or even close. That's why I'm paying him.


Makes sense, I would just note that if you think that NASAR would be of interest/a viable option you might use for certification at some point, YOU have to be certified in addition to the dog lol. They're very involved, so it might be worthwhile to check their website to see what their process/requirements are and verify with your trainer what his plans are so you know whether there are any additional things you need to be doing (besides training your dog )

Even if he tells you he plans for you to certify through an organization that doesn't require you to pass an evaluation (would be interested what that org is if that's the case), getting some books on scent theory and how scent acts would be helpful. Knowing some of that stuff before/while you're training your dog can also give additional insight on what you as the handler can do to set your dog up for success. I'm sure your trainer will also be drilling you on that stuff too though!  looking forward to hearing your updates!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There is an SAR team that trains west of Kendalville and, I am pretty sure, there is at least one team in the Bloomington area.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Because of a big case in MD (Gaithersburg) a department who calls us won't use any of their own bite trained dog to do SAR work - even on lead - and requires that our dogs have no bite training in order to use us. We do not because we have a large liability insurance policy and won't get into the discussion on whether schutzhund makes a dog safer or not.

You may want to consider this case

http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/082393.P.pdf


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I think of my SAR work as part of my life, my lifestyle. I work and I do SAR on two teams. They are not clubs, they are teams, with expectations of deploying at midnight in terrible conditions because that is when people like to get lost. Expectations of weekly training and lots of driving. Training this week is an hour and a half away, BTW.

I can see lots of LE saying, we would love to have a SAR handler we can call. I hear that a lot. Very different from the actual logistics of being the team they might call. You have to find the person in LE that actually makes the call and find out what the requirements would be. The liability of calling a civilian that is not attached to a team would be pretty great so they have to have a process in place. Find that person to talk to. 

Some trainers will train you up to the act of tracking I suppose, but that is just one part. Who trains you on navigation, search strategy, the IC system, radio comms, crime scene management and working with other teams, flankers, transportation, helicopter safety, etc.? Who tests you? Lots there beside the tracking training.

Best to you.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Dutchkarin just stated my thoughts on the handler part, which by the way is huge, in training and certification... I am a certified SAR trailing dog handler.. I have 2 certified trailing dogs and have run well over a thousand trails in training not to mention actual deployment... I train most everyday and it is difficult to find subjects who will lay the trails you need (distance, location, aging, technical trails, etc etc).. I am called on by five different counties (soon to be more) and train with 3 different teams all of which are usually a minimum of an hour and a half away, one way... 

I don't think anyone is trying to discourage you... Just truly give a reality check... All the counties I am called on do not just call in individuals (unless other counties have given excellent references AND there is no locale SAR team with the resources they need), they know that training with a team means that a certain expectation and consistency should pertain to each team called out.. They also know certification standards (vary by state for the handler) will be met.. Each team/County will have their own confidences in national certification for dog/handler (I. E. IPWDA, NAPWDA, ASCT, NASAR, etc)... 

I train in negative temps and in hundred plus degrees temps, wind, rain, snow, sleet.. It is what is expected and needed... Hours upon hours upon hours... Tracking /trailing is extremely difficult (and even extremely fun and rewarding) as you log alot of miles (where your dog goes you go, that means through the river, mud bog, up the steep freaking mountain, through the spiky brambles, etc) and have to read your dog extremely well in all situations... Learn scent theory and observe how your dog reacts to being in odor, out of odor, hunting for odor, fringing, etc etc... Personally, for me, as exhausting as it can be it is energizing and pretty much absorbs my thoughts most of the time... 

SAR is a lifestyle and not a hobby.. It is not something you can just occasionally practice, or go the easy route when you do.. The dog has to develop nose time and endurance which means trails that are miles long in all types of conditions.. Consistently,as this type of endurance is easily lost (dogs consume enormous amounts of calories tracking /trailing as opposed to normal play or even air scenting (although they do this as well if the source of odor is stronger than way)) so trailing once a week even is not going to give you or your dog the needed time for learning or endurance (this is just information, not saying you wouldn't devote to it)... Trailing in urban is totally different than wilderness, building breath in and out, cars steal scent and blow it into crevices, wind flows over building different and scent skates across asphalt and searches for nooks and crannies and shade/moisture... Knowing why your dog is doing what they are doing and how to help them is essential... 

And of course the handler learning of GPS, nav, lost personal behavior, crime scene preservation, ICS, comms, first aid, cpr, working with LE and flankers, protocols, mission reports and host of other stuff that can really only be learned well with a SAR team... All extremely important and essential to the well being of the lost and whomever is your team mate/flanker etc.. 

Again, not trying to dissuade you.. Just give a broader picture to the reality of what a dedicated SAR handler does/is.. Expenses hasn't really been discussed much but ironically, saving a person's life for free is expensive!!! If you are truly still interested in becoming a SAR K9 handler, awesome and welcome... But please recognize that the vast number of SAR volunteers are dedicated and committed.. They take their job seriously and are protective of the reputation SAR in their area has, especially the K9 teams that have to train harder then the ground pounders (no offense to any ground pounders out there) because they have dogs who need training besides their own... So any advice given that seems direct and maybe confrontational us not meant to dissuade and discourage, just test your mettle and commitment to an honorable service


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Sorry, last thought for now... The teams in my area(s) don't want or allow bite dogs due to the liability.. It take just one 'oops' that doesn't even do damage to someone (maybe a loud seemingly aggressive bark) but word leaks out that the dog is trained in bite work and now you or the LE that called on you {or SAR team you are on) are subject to a lawsuit.... LE K9 teams have the insurance coverage and training (in every area) and are required to maintain that training and they still get sued


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hineni7 knows what he is talking about!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you cliffson1.. I am a 'she' (not offended, just info  ).. I read recently that you are looking into a dual purpose dog (trailing /hrd) for SAR soon.. Both mine are dual purpose, although they will test come spring for HRD, probably shoreline and hopefully water come summer... Hope to hear you found your perfect partner soon


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What is a ground pounder? A d why on earth hasn't anyone figured out that SAR should be a paid indeavor like firefighters or EMTs.....???


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

A ground pounder is a typical volunteer that doesn't Specialize in a particular area.. Very much needed and important asset.. Moat volunteers are 'ground pounders'... There are a TV, snowmobile, avalanche, technical (mountaineering), K9, etc... You basically need the ground pounder skills before specializing in any other area.. 

Paid SAR has its problems as SAR is way less common then fire or the need for police.. So keeping a fully stuffed and trained SAR team in the many areas potentially needed would be highly expensive.. Then to pay those who volunteer when the time comes can be tricky as well... Does it become hourly? What about the newbie who 'hobbies' SAR who tries to be in every mission to be 'paid' and the senior dog handler or atv/technical ropes volunteer who trains 15hrs a week and spends every holiday and vacation training.. Do they get paid the same? Is it first come first serve and if the needed group shows up to late for the needed number of volunteers, oh well? These are just a few problems.. There are many more... And believe me, it would be nice to be reimbursed for just actual expenditures (sometimes gas is reimbursed and depending on scenario, lodging may be offered ~although that could be a spot on the floor in the local church).... But I am with you, if there was a feasible and responsible way to make things less expensive for the 'free' service it would be awesome..


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Write it all off on your taxes!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

^^absolutely! And do... Still expensive {worth it}


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

And here I thought a person could just get themselves and their dog certified, keep training to keep the skills sharp and be on call. There is a lot more to it than I thought. And a lot of different aspects or subsections one can do or so it seems. 
OK. So one question since there is a lot of knowledge on here. The one guy I talked to who is part of a club said they do it both as sport and as a rescue. So I mentioned sport a couple times and was corrected. I'm assuming he meant games to keep and Hone skills. Does this sound correct or is there something else.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cdwoodcox said:


> And here I thought a person could just get themselves and their dog certified, keep training to keep the skills sharp and be on call. There is a lot more to it than I thought. And a lot of different aspects or subsections one can do or so it seems.
> OK. So one question since there is a lot of knowledge on here. The one guy I talked to who is part of a club said they do it both as sport and as a rescue. So I mentioned sport a couple times and was corrected. I'm assuming he meant games to keep and Hone skills. Does this sound correct or is there something else.


There is a group that "titles" their SAR dogs. One of those titles is actually approved to qualify a dog for breeding in Germany. The name of the organization is blanking right now. 

That may be what they are talking about. It's set obstacles and skills. I don't consider it "sport" though cause there is no winner per se. And the AKC also offers SAR titles. But they are not meant to qualify a team to search.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Well tracking /trailing can be a sport, but SAR is never ever a sport because it is people's lives we are dealing with... Sometimes, tracking gets classified to IPO and trailing gets put into the SAR category (the difference being tracking is following footsteps and trailing is following the strongest source of scent be it footstep, air or off the actual track (wind, terrain, etc)).. So maybe they are referring to trailing (vs tracking IPO style) as 'SAR' style, aka 'real world' type trailing... But if someone was serious about referring to SAR as a sport I would know they didn't have a real clue as to what is involved and we're not serious about it.. You don't play at saving people's lives... And mean this with respect in answering your question, no judgment


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

SDONA. That's the name of the organization that "titles" SAR dogs.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Hineni7 said:


> Well tracking /trailing can be a sport, but SAR is never ever a sport because it is people's lives we are dealing with... Sometimes, tracking gets classified to IPO and trailing gets put into the SAR category (the difference being tracking is following footsteps and trailing is following the strongest source of scent be it footstep, air or off the actual track (wind, terrain, etc)).. So maybe they are referring to trailing (vs tracking IPO style) as 'SAR' style, aka 'real world' type trailing... But if someone was serious about referring to SAR as a sport I would know they didn't have a real clue as to what is involved and we're not serious about it.. You don't play at saving people's lives... And mean this with respect in answering your question, no judgment


No worries. I don't have a clue. Well I know a lot more now than I did two days ago. So I have kind of a clue. Thanks for the info.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

You betcha.. Good luck


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Are you talking about AKC tracking titles? AKC allows for air scenting during the track. 

As far as I can remember the regs...they only whistle you off if your dog is so far off track that they can't expect it to recover.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

AKC has trailing titles that allow for air scenting, but I'm not sure about their tracking titles... Usually there is a distinct difference... But I am not a hundred percent sure on this as I am not in the titling venue. I certify so I can deploy on missions


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Are you talking about AKC tracking titles? AKC allows for air scenting during the track.
> 
> As far as I can remember the regs...they only whistle you off if your dog is so far off track that they can't expect it to recover.


Based on quick google search. The AKC also has a title for wilderness airscent. It's not a "test" but you apply for it based on experience and certification through another entity. 

SDONA is what I was thinking of. Completely separate from any registry. Tests that you perform on a specific day and if you pass you get an IRO title. One if the higher levels is now accepted, like IPO and HGH for breed worthiness. SDONA is most active in the Midwest.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I will have to look into it more. I have been training mine for AKC tracking, if there is a different trailing title I would be interested to know.

Getting involved with k9 SAR is a someday dream of mine. I don't have the time and money for it now. But if that ever changes I would love to do it.

Do you think having done AKC tracking would help me if I ever did get to SAR. At least in having some limited experience in how conditions affect the track, reading the dog on the track ect?

I live on the edge of a National Forest and near a trailhead to the AT. Surely it would be a useful location to be... someday....


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Absolutely! Tracking is detailed work, especially for the dog.. Not that trailing isn't, but it is kind of like the burger you see on TV all pristine ~that is tracking.. Trailing is the messy burger you actually eat, lol... If your dog can track they can trail (usually).. If you can read your dog and know scent theory and how odor moves then you will be well on your way to fulfilling your SAR dream... Usually tracking tracks are pretty short for titling.. Trailing trails are usually quite a bit longer.. You will enjoy them


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