# confusion and mistrust



## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

I live In St Louis Mo, and have been looking for a little while. We just had a VERY BAD experience with a breeder in Florida. I will leave out there name, because I dont know what the forum rules are, but if you want to know there name, shoot me a PM. 

We were traveling in Florida and I put aside a entire Day for what I thought would be a fun new dog experience. This Breeder does the switch when we get there, telling me the dog we had been discussing all the way up to the day before, had shown aggression and had us look at other dogs. then after we see 2 dogs, They take a American Bred (nothing wrong with this, but more on this later) dog, and try to pass it off as a fully trained protection dog. When we take the dogs outside, they are completely in there own world. Show us nothing even remotely close to what the animals should be acting like.

After we see the dogs, one of which my wife had seen on there internet site, we go into the office and are hit with a price that is 2 1/2 times the price still on the internet. 

I did not know this, but my wife was instantly turned off, and wanted to leave. trusting her instincts, we leave, only to have her tell me all this afterwords. 

I proceed to call this breeder back, as we start our LONG drive home, and am told yes the price for the dog is the internet price, but after 1 month of training, the dog will be worth the added price.. 

the starting price on the internet for this dog was 5000 dollars and some change, the one month of training (lol at this now that i have done my research) was 7500 dollars, ADDITIONAL!. 

needless to say, we have stepped back away form the ordeal, and tried to learn from it.

My question, after this, is I have a list of a few breeders, and if ANY of you have had any experience with them, I would love to hear it.

1. Gatorland international, there site shows some BEAUTIFUL dogs, but I have learned not to trust the interent.

2. Von Waldberg Kennels 

3. International K9 imports

4. Vertrauen Kennels 


These are a few I have looked at, but Am willing to TAKE ANY SUGGESTIONS. I am looking for a younger dog, to have trained local, or a fully trained MALE, that is for my wife and CHILDREN when i am out of town. I would like a pink papered dog, but I am not going to say no to a dog that was bred somewhere else, and is trained properly. If We do choose a puppy, the parents MUST BE German imports, and have a good strong TRACEABLE bloodline.



thanks for any help


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Any line in particular? What is the reasoning for a pink papered dog?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The initial price seems a bit steep but then I've only purchased untrained pups. The tone of "protect spouse & children when I'm gone" hits me the wrong way - in part because I think I should protect my dog!, in part because a protection dog should protect any of you irrespective of who happens to be at home. 

I have a breeder/trainer I recommend to any one. He's the opposite side of the country from you 'though.

If your bottom line is worrying about your spouses ability to protect the children and herself, perhaps a self defense class would be appropriate. THe knowledge learned there should last a lifetime and could supplement any thing else (such as a dog) that your family decides to add.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

And why must the parents be imports?

Not saying right or wrong, just trying to get a clear picture of what you're looking for.

Sorry your experience was so bad.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

I want a Dog that can be or is, a family friend, but also is capable of having the courage and strength to protect if needed.. I do not live in a dangerous area, and the Dog will prob never be in danger one day of its life. But i travel alot, and I have learned the hard way, this world can bad place, and the better prepared one is, the better off you are.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

I guess I worded this wrong, The parents do not have to be imports, I just want a strong traceable bloodline.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

There are a lot of "crooks" out there in the dog world. My Doerak was misrepresented by breed, training and age. They said he was 18 months old, ha! more like 5 years old! Poor guy. I'm glad I got him and he was a good dog and happy to be living with me and not be treated like livestock. 

Anyway, beware. It's good to get opinions from people here.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

The Tom Rose Dog Training Academy is located in St. Louis. You might think about using one of their graduates. 

http://www.tomrose.com/graduatesa.html


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

I am SO GLAD you said something about this, I have a meeting with one of there trainers on Tuesday. I am having them help me with my Golden Retriever.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Well the person you went to visit did it start with a K or a P? Or pm, please so I can add it to the list of ones NOT to recommend. 

As for your list

1) says 25 yrs working dog world, their dogs are showlines. I've never heard of them and I know people that do train/sell in that area. 

2) Not in my area, showlines, 14 breeding dogs.

3) looks like a broker more than a breeder. Some working lines, some showlines. 

4) showlines, doesn't show WHAT dogs they have, just males and females.????

If you're looking for a reputable showline breeder, than there are alot out there. Me, I don't know these breeders, but maybe some others here on the board do.


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## CWhite (Dec 8, 2004)

This board always gives excellent advice. They pointed me in the direction of my breeder and i am as happy as a lark (or a GSD with a marrow bone).


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

I am not looking for showlines, I have searched through what feels like 200 breeders/ trainers..

The name of the place is Global K9 group.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Ok you are looking at good marketing geared towards people with too much money not enough knowledge. It would be fine if the product was really worth more. However, its like you are looking at buying a patek and ending up with a pretty rolex but at a patek price. You can find a nice dog, just as nice or nicer, that can get the job done for a lot less and without the deceptive marketing. I would stay away from almost anyone who advertises in slick magazines.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: The BaronI want a Dog that can be or is, a family friend, but also is capable of having the courage and strength to protect if needed.. I do not live in a dangerous area, and the Dog will prob never be in danger one day of its life. But i travel alot, and I have learned the hard way, this world can bad place, and the better prepared one is, the better off you are.


Still not quite sure what this means. Are you looking for a titled sport dog? PPD? Or just a big, dark dog? Honestly I think the latter is really all you need. I took my 10 month old puppy out in the dark with me after someone stole my bike and we went to some shadier streets looking for it, no one messed with us (and he is in SchH training but nowhere near any titles).

I dunno, it just seems like every breeder/academy I've looked at selling pre-trained dogs are selling them for $15000+ and often the best they have is a SchH1 which is an attainable title you can get yourself with a decent working line or even a show line dog if that's the type of training you are looking for. To me, so much of the training and the protection stems from the bond between the dog and handler. I can fathom spending tens of thousands on a dog someone else trained after what I have seen from some dogs being sent away for training (many trained with way too much pressure, they come back and won't even do a simple "sit").


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

I want a shepherd with Personal protection as its main focus. But the fact it is a family dog, and is not a kennel dog, makes me want a dog that is, or can be trained, (leaning towards the can be trained side now), to do more than bite a sleeve. I have seen SCH dogs that are UNBELIEVABLE in the ring, but WILL NOT bite anyone no matter what the level of aggression, without a sleeve on..

I Am not interested in buying another pet. I want a working dog, that is smart enough to do what needs to be done, but still lives in a household environment.. I dont know how much simpler I can put it.

I believe it will take a VERY LEVEL headed dog to do this. I think If I get a puppy, it needs to come from a very impressive, and stable, Sir, and mother. 

Thats why I am asking for any input from anyone with any EXCEPTIONAL breeders/ trainers.. 

And while Money is a issue, I AM willing to pay for a dog that PROVES itself to be worth it. Training is not cheap. Trainers are not cheap. I am starting to see this. I have figured if I get a Puppy, and take it to Tom Rose, I will have at min of 4500-5000 dollars in the dog, in just training..This is going by there rates and doing ONE private lesson and there Saturday lessons every week. So if you pay 1000-1500 for a good puppy, and I have seen Higher, and then figure boarding it for a year, I can easily see how a dog could cost 15,000 dollars for a fully trained, PROVEN dog.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Well the links you posted were of showlines, sorry folks, but look at the bite work in the seiger show, alot of showlines really can't do ppd. Not saying all, but the numerous aren't as common as a working line. Most pd's have working lines or mal's. Few showlines here and there, but not the norm. Showlines are bred to look pretty. 

You want a working dog, you'll need a working lines.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

ok, can you point me in the right direction? I dont care if they are west or not. I travel for a living, and picking up a dog, or visiting a dog can be arranged..


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Just for clarification. I don't sell or breed or "have just the right dog for you", LOL. I just hate to see someone with little knowledge in the field get taken for a ride.

I completely understand where you are coming from and agree with you. A puppy is probably not the way to go. I agree that a trained adult is. These guys often have "decent dogs" for your situation. I do disagree with the way these folks do business for the most part making it seem that their dogs are superior. I don't see a problem with people making money, what I have a problem with is them charging extreme prices for average dogs. If I am going to pay for Patek, I **** better get a Patek. 

These dogs may have some PP training, but unless you keep it up, or should I say your wife keeps it up, it is not going to be worth much. What you need is a dog that has the NATURAL instincts and you/wife do some basic obedience training..... including barking on command. Then teach her to handle a firearm, PRACTICE OFTEN with her firearm and then you are set.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

my cashman can back up a 250# man (or two or three) across the room just by opening his mouth, and he has no professional training at all. he would back that mouth up if someone tried to hurt his mom, btw, and i think the only way someone could do that is if they shot him, and it seems like they could shoot an sch/trained dog just as easily. 

and i also think it's me who protects my dog, but i've been glad to have him around more than once, for sure.

jmho! welcome to the board.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

sent you some links.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

The prices sound excessive. 

I was home alone in a country safe town taking a shower. Then all of a sudden I heard my Shelter GSD start barking intensley and aloud bang. I hurried out and When I went down stairs someone had kicked in my my back door and took off. There were tire marks on my back lawn to, I think they pulled up on the back yard so no one from the street could see them. If she were not there guarding me I don't know who or what they wanted. But she saved me for sure from some type of harm, just she could not talk and so I had no witnesses but the kicked in door. I paid $35 for her!! Loved her so much!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: The BaronI want a shepherd with Personal protection as its main focus. But the fact it is a family dog, and is not a kennel dog, makes me want a dog that is, or can be trained, (leaning towards the can be trained side now), to do more than bite a sleeve. I have seen SCH dogs that are UNBELIEVABLE in the ring, but WILL NOT bite anyone no matter what the level of aggression, without a sleeve on..
> 
> I Am not interested in buying another pet. I want a working dog, that is smart enough to do what needs to be done, but still lives in a household environment.. I dont know how much simpler I can put it.
> 
> ...


Only issue with this is the best breeders I know (with the best dogs, the best training, best breeding, etc) are generally small hobby breeders that either don't have time/space to do the board-and-train bit, or maybe just don't believe in it. Generally (now maybe there are exceptions but I haven't seen a good one yet) those doing the board-and-train bit are doing it to make money, period, not for the love of the breed and the dogs.

So I agree with Tammy as far as the marketing bit. You may find a better dog in a sport dog, and do a bit more training for PPD work.


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## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

Awesome story, Heidi. Glad it turned out okay


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I am sitting in a hammock posting on the blackberry which limits my surfing, or I am limited in patience anyway but toimorrow when I have a real computer I will send you some links to breeders/triners I would go to if I was looking for a dog. Actually, if I was looking for a dog, I would hop on a plane and head to Europe where I could visit.10+ kennels in a few days till I found just the right dog. Take a little vacation while looking for home security. Plus, save a little money to boot most likely. Certainly save some money over buying from those guys and probably come away with a better dog.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

There are like 25 breeders close to a dream vacation spot, Nuremberg. But so far, the wife has not said yes to this..lol


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks me too,. my cocker spaniel ran out the kciked in door and chased the neighbors cat buy my GSD stayed in the house guarding me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: The BaronThere are like 25 breeders close to a dream vacation spot, Nuremberg. But so far, the wife has not said yes to this..lol


And the 2009 BSZS (Sieger Show) is in Ulm, only two hours from Nürnberg.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Then, go to the BSP or worlds, LOL

Seriously, I would hook up with someone over there, pay them a couple hundred Euros a day to take you to kennels and look at, test dogs. Look at young green dogs 18 - 24 months, suitable for family with hips and elbows done and tell them your budget is "___" I would say that 3000-4000 Euros will get you what you are looking for no problem. They will no doubt take you to all their buddies first but you would find a good dog one way or another in a few days that way, wife along for the trip or not. Then bring the dog back and finish some PP training with your wife involved at Tom Rose since that is local and you can have some continuing support

That is my best advice and what I would do if I was looking for a dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The BSP would be awesome! Not sure how close it is to Nürnberg this year though. But if I ever went to Germany I'd go to all three shows - BSZS, BSP, and the herding championships. They always make them a week or two apart all in a row.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

i new i misspelled that..lol Nürnberg


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nah, it's OK you spelled it the American way I think. I happened to learn my German geography in German so I spell everything their way.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

If you think you can just go over to Germany and get a truly top dog as a no name American with no contacts and with no experience training dogs, let alone selecting dogs...

I couldn't help but be the voice of reason in this thread, sorry.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

PM'ed you, curious if the breeder is the same one I had trouble with...


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: jesusicaIf you think you can just go over to Germany and get a truly top dog as a no name American with no contacts and with no experience training dogs, let alone selecting dogs...
> 
> I couldn't help but be the voice of reason in this thread, sorry.


He is not looking for a top cometition dog, but a dog for a pet and PP. No reason he can't go over there and get that.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: jesusicaIf you think you can just go over to Germany and get a truly top dog as a no name American with no contacts and with no experience training dogs, let alone selecting dogs...
> ...


I'm aware of what he's looking for and I stand by my comment.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Well you probably know more about this type of thing than I do.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP. I'm sending you a PM with a recommendation.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

thanks for the help and the PMS, I appreciate all the help


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

You might want to take a little something for that









Just a bit of friendly ribbing ^_^ (I pick jokes where I see them ) Glad to see a new person on the board asking questions.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I remember being at a club a few years back when one of these guys named in the first post came thru buying dogs. They tested several dogs and bought one dog I remember very well. Paid around $1000-$1200 if I remember correctly, certainly not more than that and may have been less. It was an OK dog, some obedience training, pretty stable temperament, decent pedigree, hips done. It was a fine, club level dog and that was it. 2 weeks later the dog was on the guys website for 10K and had extensive training.... LOL 









When I lived in Europe many years ago and used to hang out at the clubs over there no doubt bothering those poor people







the occasional American or Asian would come thru with money burning holes in their pockets. They were normally sold pretty good dogs at pretty fair prices. Not top competition dogs, but most were not looking for that. It would help to have someone experienced showing the person around. That is why I would get an introduction and pay the person a couple hundred Euro's a day as I stated above. It would also help to have some idea of what to look for. Anyway, but going over there, in just a few days you could see numerous kennels and dogs which is why I suggested it. 

There are dogs here too that would be perfectly suitable, you would just have to do more research and spend a lot more time in travel. 

Good Luck whatever you decide!!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"Then, go to the BSP or worlds, LOL"

That is the goal this year.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Baron,

OK. Just to clarify - it sounds as if you do not want to be screwed (which quite frankly happens VERY OFTEN when people try to find what you are looking for and are not super educated and immersed in the working dog world) but are willing to spend a decent amount of money to get a dog that can both live with your family and be an actual personal protection dog. Here are my comments and suggestions...

1. It sounds as if you understand this at least in part, but this dog will need ongoing training. Serious ongoing training that will involve at least you are your wife. He will need to work with a decoy and a trainer so that you both have complete control over him and a good working relationship. That means you need a good PPD trainer or SchH trainer that can cross train within driving distance since you will need to get him out and train at least once a month give or take. This will be just as important as your initial decision on the dog and breeder.
2. You have a golden retriever. What sex is the golden? Hopefully female, since that would be easiest because 95% of PPD candidates will be male creating the easiest two dog arrangement in a home. If he is male, then be prepared to rotate dogs if neccessary. Also, you need to get the golden 100% rock solid from a manners and training standpoint. The last thing you need is to bring a civil male GSD into your home and have his environment and relationship with your family screwed up by your golden. 
3. Only talk to smaller hobby breeders that are training ,working and most importantly living with their own breeding stock. In order to get what you want you need breeders that understand their dogs temperaments completely and have exposed them to real life as well as the field since they were puppies - it's almost as important as the dogs stability genetically. You will not get that from the places with the glossy ads in the magazines, and in my opinion you won't get it at the BSP either. 
4. Don't even consider buying a dog from anyone for this purpose unless they have drilled you like you are a key witness on the stand for the defense. I mean they should be helping you find the trainer in your area (or at least verifying who it is and calling to check) and requiring that you and your wife come to them for the initial training. They should be asking about every minute detail about your home and life. They should be looking to say NO and trying to find a reason to say no to you. That means they care about the dog, and take very seriously that they will be placing a protection trained dog with a novice handler and his family - and IF they approve you provide you with a plan to become a capable handler. 

By making this decision you are not buying a dog - you are choosing a way of life. I am not joking. By choosing a civil (willing to engage a man for real) powerful animal to live with your family you are choosing to become an expert in handling, canine body language and protection training. SO IS YOUR WIFE. As long as you're OK with that, good luck. 

I would start with talking to the smaller excellend breeders on this board - Chris Wild, Wolfstrum, Vandal etc. and go from there.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

man, the last few posts hit home.

I do have a Female Golden, or this would not even be being considered. I HAVE a appointment at Tom Rose at 5.15 tomorrow evening, for the Golden, because I dont want bad habits from her, rubbing off on another dog. The trainer I talked to said they would get me a few different breeders that I can speak with who have young, green dogs, we can start with, and they can train with me, and my wife.. I am hoping I can do it this way, so I can get a dog that is 3-6 months old, old enough that the young puppy days are behind it, but the bulk of its learning/training days are ahead.

Wish me luck, I can say this, for anyone who is reading this. I am EXTREMELY impressed with the level of communication from the Tom Rose trainer, and there willingness to actually find me a dog that will fit my Family just in the short period of time I have given them is amazing..


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

I would continue to take the advice of the people here regarding finding an appropriate GSD breeder, rather than that of the TR School. I am not particularly impressed by the school, but that is just me.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:I am hoping I can do it this way, so I can get a dog that is 3-6 months old, old enough that the young puppy days are behind it, but the bulk of its learning/training days are ahead.


Keep in mind that a puppy will be about two years away from being a personal protection dog. A better choice may be a young started dog of 12-18 months.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What/who is Tom Rose/TR? Can someone PM me? Never heard of him/it before....


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

For Lies:

http://www.tomrose.com/


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

lol, ^^^^^tell us how you feel..lol


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

??

Thanks Lucia. Looks like this Tom Rose is a jack of all trades?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Haven't heard anything bad through the internet or other forums - his name comes up often enough that it is familiar. Many succesful dog people say they got their start through a Tom Rose program.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

well, Harrison told me they have hired many of his trainers.. for what it is worth..


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: The Baronlol, ^^^^^tell us how you feel..lol











People here shorten Liesje's name to Lies, Castlemaid wasn't commenting on Tom Rose


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidHaven't heard anything bad through the internet or other forums - his name comes up often enough that it is familiar. Many succesful dog people say they got their start through a Tom Rose program.


That's true - but is it because the TR program gives them the tools needed to be successful dog trainers, or because the general public buys into the "Master Dog Trainer" hype? But sorry...don't want to hijack the thread. LOL


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

NO, highjack it, it is good info, considering I am planning on using them, for at least 1 dog. i like every side of the story..


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Well there are many who will disagree...(which is good, right? How boring would it be if we all agreed all the time! LOL). I think it is really a matter of preference. I only have 2 main issues:

1. I have difficulty in understanding how these schools can take in a completely novice student and transform them in a matter of weeks into "Master Dog Trainer"s, who can suddenly train dogs in all fields, when there are MANY professional dog trainers who have spent a lifetime learning the nuances of just one or two endeavors (Obedience, Agility, Narcotics, Tracking, etc). How can the student compare to the professional trainer's knowledge and skill base? 

2. Plus, I prefer trainers who have "been there done that". I want to know that the trainer I work with has taken a dog to whatever level I am wanting to work at (and been evaluated by an UNBIASED party as successful). If I were to learn Schutzhund, I would want a trainer that has trialed to atleast a II (if not a III). 

Now, if the graduate has taken the time to work beyond the school's education - and has continued to accomplish things with their own dogs (as evaluted by an Unbiased party), then that might be ok. But, if the trainer's only dog education comes from the school alone, I just can't see it.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

well, I was looking, and there master course takes like 2 years to complete if done all the way through, but i agree. There school for there dogs and there people are different though.. here is there school for dogs website,

http://www.doghouseinc.com/dogsforsalepage.html

and I figured anyone who tries to sell 50000 thousand dollar dogs (LMAO) would be able to give a good recommendation with a trainer, or you would think anyway..lol


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

i am sorry, this is the home page for there site

http://www.doghouseinc.com/index.html


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

As someone who wants to be a professional dog trainer I looked into their school as it was well reccommended as one of the only dog training schools worth it's salt. I'm not going to go there, having researched further I'll shadow a trainer and work towards getting certified and continue to study and go to seminars. 

I do know that it takes much longer than a few weeks to get the "Master Trainer" title there (I'll admit that the title master trainer turns me off a bit, but that's a personal preference I guess







). And it's not easy to pass from what I looked at online. You can only get into the higher levels of training there if you get a very high score in several areas and are reccommended by the instructors. You also have to acquire green dogs while you are there and train them to certain levels of competition. For a completely green handler in those types of competitions I would imagine it would be a bit overwhelming. So I think it's well earned if you do graduate from there, but I would have to check out the training methods in person very closely before I would fork out a lot of money to go there and learn. 

Michael Ellis however is opening a school for dog trainers soon apparently, and THAT is something that could be very interesting. I am Michael Ellis fan. 

Okay, my part of the hijacking is over







I hope you find what you're looking for. Trust the people here to point you in a good direction.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Zeus's post was really good. 

I am betting Branca's mom when you were in Germany you were with dog people?

I am betting if I went over with a fat wallet and the knowledge that I have (interested but inexperienced in what to look for) I would get taken and end up coming home with a dog they'd been looking to unload for a while. In other words, caveat emptor. 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=tom+rose+training+school&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Some of those links to opinion/discussion. 

Good luck!


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Back in the Early 90's I was completely new to the dog world and really knew no one at first. I did end up buying a dog which I [email protected]$$ed trained when it suited me. Mostly I thought some of the helpers were cute and enjoyed the clubs atmosphere.







I would simply show up at the clubs bringing food and alcohol which most certainly might have had something to do with me not getting kicked out on my butt right upfront. 

Someone could get taken here, someone could get taken there. Anyone with money to burn and little knowledge in the field is often seen as a good mark. I have seen some huge scammers right here in the states, not sure why people think that is more geared toward the Europeans? Sorry to say...... my experience is that the Europeans involved in the sport are more honest as a group than the dog people I have met here state-side. I know that will make a few people mad but that has been my personal experience.

My point in going over there is the sheer volume of dogs one could see in a short time. Plus it is a heck of a good vacation spot.







I was simply stating what I would do if I was looking for a young adult... if I didn't know of one here already personally.

My MAIN point, was that he should stay away from the some of those people who buy mediocre dogs and sell them as top of the line for outrageous sums.

I fully agree with John above, and as I said earlier, I don't believe the average person should have a fully trained PP Dog. It is a huge liability and not something to get into lightly. A Big Dark GSD that barks on command with a firearm to back it up is a much better idea IMHO. 

I pm'd the OP about someone here in the states I would recommend he contact. Unfortunately, he hasn't read my pm yet.... hello OP, check your pm's!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Mom
> A Big Dark GSD that barks on command with a firearm to back it up is a much better idea IMHO.


This, this, a thousand times this. What happens when you spend $15,000 on a trained personal protection dog and somebody breaks into the house and shoots your dog first thing?


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: EmooreThis, this, a thousand times this. What happens when you spend $15,000 on a trained personal protection dog and somebody breaks into the house and shoots your dog first thing?


If the dog took up enough of the intruders time to allow me or my wife to get a firearm and defend ourselves then it's money well spent. I would mourn the loss of a family member (the dog) first, then be







off that the situation caused me to lose an animal I had put so much time and resources into (resulting in the loss of a few more 9mm rounds) second and then turn focus to finding another dog. That's what happens. 95% of potential intruders are not going mess with a house that has an active GSD warning them off. 4% of relatively unskilled criminals may be stupid or drugged up enough to try and will get eaten. The other 1% are skilled enough to get in and shoot the dog immediately - and hopefully I have not made myself a target to the people that have enough money to hire them to get my family. That 4% group could get larger if the man of the house travels a lot (like the OP). I for one LOVE having a dog that I know for a fact will engage a threat - and lick my daughters face as she giggles. It requires maintenance, but I consider that to be fun.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I know of someone who's GSD (relative to my Kenya) who attacked a home intruder with a gun. The dog was shot and killed but also damaged the intruder and the police got him.

I know someone who's home was broken into by a rapist. She was sleeping on her couch with her dogs when she felt someone there. She has two Boxer dogs, not trained in anything, but luckily their presence alone was enough to scare him back out the window.

Last week, my bike was stolen right out from under my three dogs.

So, I'm not sure there is a magic formula. Some people will shoot a trained PPD. Some will leave just because there is an untrained dog. Some will just steal even with three dogs going apeshit at them.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Mom
> A Big Dark GSD that barks on command with a firearm to back it up is a much better idea IMHO.


That 99% of us cannot have the luxury of a trained dog and would do well with the big dark GSD doesn't mean that if the OP has the resources to invest in a PPD it's still better. I'm sure he is aware of what can happen, but is wiling to take the risk.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

but....so many people do NOT understand what they are getting into with a PP Dog. Simply having the money (resources) to buy one does not mean it is a good idea! Not saying that in this particular case, it is not a good idea, I don't know this person... but for MOST PEOPLE I don't think it is appropriate. I have seen way too many people with way too much dog. It is an accident waiting to happen in some cases with the wrong people. A PP dog is not a remote controled dog and in the wrong hands could be a huge liability. 

I think warning them is a good idea. If they choose to afterwards then it is a choice that they made from more awareness of what they are getting themselves into.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

There are some very good breeders in Germany. 
Bosco von der Hagenmühle for example is a great working dog.

Drei Hunde Nacht Kennel is a very responsible Kennel with some great working dogs. 

In the states canine concepts is a pretty good address. At least at the times my parents done business with them. He was three times american national champion with Asko vom Siegelgrund if I am not mistaken. 

A puppy with pink papers is between 500 - 1000 euros. A young untrained dog should not be more than a 1500 euros.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I hear you. The only reason that people are posting about options is because three pages back we all went into the details on what having a PPD live with your family entail. The OP is talking about sinking training into his current dog and both he and his wife will learn to handle the new dog. If she is willing to drive from St.Louis to Florida she is on board with the concept. 

If someone is willing to learn how to train and handle properly there's nothing wrong with a balanced PPD in a home. It doesn't make the dog a monster. In fact when done correctly it's a lot LESS likely to bite than a golden retriever or lab who happen to top the bite list.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

This thread is great guys, I am so glad I am here.

I want to give some background on myself, then tell you all what I learned today.

I am 32 years old. I have a young, small framed, attractive wife, with 2 young girls, and 6 year old, and a 7 going on 13 year old. 

I live in what I call rural St louis. If any of you have been to the area, you know, St. Louis is a fairly small city, with about 150 square miles of suburbs.. I actually live 35 miles south of the city limits. 

I was raised with Chows. My first dog, Star, drug me around by my dyper whe i was young (my MOM LOVED SHOWING THOSE PICS TO PROSPECTIVE YOUNG GIRLFRIENDS,







) and when my mom got older, she got into the dog training world on the Show side, and had several successful dogs. When her pride and joy, Sunny, got to old to make it in the ring, she decided to hang it up. I was about 14 at the time. 

I never had the desire to go down that road, but I have been a dog owner, and am the guy who finds the lost dog on the side of the road, and keeps it until i find its owner (4 times to date,lol). 

This WILL BE my first Shepherd of any type. I have had, in order. 1 chow, 1 beagle (lucky Lou is still with me), 1 Golden retriever (Sadie), and 1 taco dog, I cant spell chuwawaaaaaaa..lol

I have had all of my dogs trained to a low level of obedience.

I went to the Orientation at Tom Rose tonight, and was greeted with a nice facility, and a welcoming staff. I had spoken with a Trainer about what we were looking for in a dog, and what we wanted to accomplish with Sadie. I had decided that She needed a greater scale of training, if we were going to have a dog of High caliber, because I did not want the bad habits of one, rubbing of on another.

I AM NOT A NOVICE TRAINER, that would be a lie, I am totally green. My knowledge of HOW to get a dog to do the things it needs to do, is STRICTLY limited to the dogs I have owned, so i went in with a open mind.

I met a dog named Doyal, who was a very highly trained (malimar)?<forgive spelling again.. And was very impressed with the cander of the trainers.. They will train your dog , or help you train your dog on any type of leash, from flat, to choker, to pinch, to electric shocker..

They said flat out, they have the best success with E/S and pinch. and felt that chokers on a dog with any stubberness in it at all, was a bad idea, because of the throat and neck damage that can be done, if mishandled. They also said that they train all there personal PPd's on a E/S leash.
I know this ^^^^^ will raise mix feelings^^^, but i definitely see the side of doing as little throat and neck damage as possible. I have seen people just mishandle choker collars so badly, I felt bad for the poor dog, that was just not understanding why it was getting the crap choked out of it.. 

Anyway, I am going t let my Sadie train there. her level of obedience will be easy to acquire. 

I am still up in the air about the puppy vrs trained dog. 

I feel with the level of training available, I could get a fully trained dog, and go to Rose, and let them help ME, and train ME, to use the dog to the fullest extent, and also, if needed, get the dog, to respond to the kind of commands a PPD in a family enviroment will need to keep others, that mean no harm, safe.


these are my thoughts, and my background, I am going to look into ALL the pms i have recieved, and I really hope this thread keeps going, because I think there are ALOT of people out there, in the exact same position as me..


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I guess living alone like I do in a pretty much rural area with my 3 German Showline dogs leads me to the feeling that I have about spending major money on a dog trained to the capacity that requires VERY skilled dog handling. I sleep with the utmost confidence in my dogs to not only alert me to any intruders, but also be a visual deterrant to someone actually thinking of hopping my fence with 3 Shepherds. I sold a puppy to a young man 3 years ago in San Diego, last month out of the blue he calls me to tell me how much this dog has meant to them, apparently he was out of town and left the dog with his elderly mother, his father was out golfing and an intruder entered the house and physically confronted the mother who screamed in fear, the dog ran from the backyard into the house and without so much as a hesitation charged barking and growling with hackles raised, the thug ran for the door as the dog jumped him from behind sending him into the front stairs where he hit his head enough to temporarily daze him and allow some neighbors to restrain him and call the police. This dog is as friendly as can be and is German Showlines, he's just a typical German Shepherd protecting his family, no bells and whistles or permits needed to handle him, he just possessed the intelligence to realize a threat to his family.


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

It is not that I dont think with time, and the right trainer to follow, I couldn't get the results I want. BUT, I am not going to fool myself into thinking I can take a green dog, and make it a sch3, super protection, frisbie catching, ball chasing, jump and rip your arm off if your a bad guy, dog. It takes the right dog, and the right training, to do this, and this is kinda what I want..lol


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If you've got the right support you can be trained with the dog. You and the dog have to learn together, grow together and work together. 

Either you invest between 5-10 000 dollars/euros and buy a fully trained dog (sometimes they are even more than that. Depending of how successful and what line they are it can go beyond 50 000 euros) or you are willed to get a puppy and go to puppy classes, training and grow with the dog together. As long as you've got the right support and training you can do this. It is a long process and there is a lot to learn but with the right trainers it ain't a problem. I've seen this before. Three years ago a girl got a puppy, she didn't know anything about dog handling and went to the right club to get the training and support. Meanwhile she's a great dog handler and even got the german trainer license.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Baron,

Comments/suggestions on the new information you provided...

1. Doyal was probably a Malinois, which are commonly used in high end sport, military, PPD and PSD capacities. You don't normally see the breed as a common pet. They tend to be a lot of dog for the common owner/handler.

2. The tool you refer to as an electric shocker is usually called an e-collar. They can be great tools when used properly, and can really screw up a dog and a handler's relationsip with a dog when not used properly. Be careful. Keep your eyes and ears wide open. Proper e-collar training is done at a stimulation level that is just where the dog feels it - which is a different level for all dogs depending upon situation. The collar should be used as a method of communiation - not just jamming on electric stimulus to beat on a dog towards submission - which is the temptation for trainers trying to achieve an end result quickly. If you don't feel good about a training method being used speak up. There are many ways to train a dog.

3. I agree 100% on the prong/choke comments.

4. As for puppy or adult, you will not know for sure if a dog much younger than a year old will be a suitable candidate for a PPD. So, your choices really are either to find a green dog that has been socialized in the real world while also working in bitework foundation for your to "finish off" from a training standpoint or to find a fully trained dog. If it were me, I would keep my options open and look for both. What you are looking for is not the easiest thing in the world to find - and if you find either one out there from a trainer/breeder that is reputable and gives you a good feeling I would jump on it.

Good luck!


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## The Baron (Jul 10, 2009)

Talked to mike at Kreative Kennels.. Back to the drawing board..lol

he has SOME BEAUTIFUL dogs.. I have seen his kennels name in a lot of sigs around here.. 

OPINIONS are welcome, good bad ugly... ?????


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Grimm is 6-3/4 mths old, almost 7 mths old and will bark on command or will bark when certain movements are made (we trained him this way). He can scare even the most manly of men.....and he's still a puppy.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Cody is half American/German and he saved my life from a guy who almost attacked me on my lawn. Cody has only had SchH training but he ran after the guy and went to bite his arm but I yelled Nien and he was off before he even bit down, now that's a good dog.








Isa, who's a German Showline, will almost always only bark if there's a threat to me or the property. Pretty nice since when she barks, it's serious.








I have both wonderful dogs with different lines, shows that there are GSDs from any line that can and will protect.










I hope you find what you're looking for.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

A word of caution. Training an owning a PPD is is a huge time commitment and a lifestyle. Going into a training session and watching exciting work is very different than acually having to stick to it over years. I have seen people's commitment fade. I hope people will give you a realistic picture as to what both you and your wife are letting yourself into.


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## Vertrauen Kennels (Jul 18, 2009)

***Post removed by Admin. Advertising dogs and puppies for sale is not allowed on the board.****


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I think the OP needs to decide whether puppy, green dog or adult trained dog.


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## Vertrauen Kennels (Jul 18, 2009)

**Post Removed by Admin. Once again, use of the board to advertise is prohibited. If you wish to discuss puppies you have for sale, please do so privately.**


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## Valkyrierider (Jul 21, 2010)

I have two girls from Kreative Kennels in California. Couldn't be happier. Their natural protectiveness was just what I wanted. They are Medium sized and extreamly powerful. They have accepted my family as their own and guard it the same way. When I get off late from work and my wife is asleep, they will challenge my entry to the house until they know it's me. Their next step usually involves them wanting to check the outside for any bad guys. This started at about 5 to 6 months old. No aggression training, they were considered to be too calm or subdued for police work. Now they are about to graduate from obedience training. With this training I may find I have two young ladies.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

RebelGSD said:


> A word of caution. Training an owning a PPD is is a huge time commitment and a lifestyle. Going into a training session and watching exciting work is very different than acually having to stick to it over years. I have seen people's commitment fade. I hope people will give you a realistic picture as to what both you and your wife are letting yourself into.


Rebel brings up some good points here. A true PPD dog is not like the average house pet, and you and your entire family will have to be on board and reinforce the training it has received FOR THE LIFE OF THE DOG. Hence the comment that peoples' committment can fade over the years - but this is a not a dog you let your guard down on. Not only that but most insurance companies will not insure you if they know you have a PPD. You could neglect to tell them of course, but if anything were to happen - if your dog went off on a visitor to your home for example (and yes, it's happened, they have also been known to attack family members which are seen as vulnerable, such as grandparents) you are then in deep trouble. I do not understand your desire for such a dog, unless it's for some sort of machismo. You have already stated that you don't live in a bad neighborhood. So unless you have an estate to guard or are a celebrity, or have a great number of valuable possessions that you don't want stolen - what is the point? I have a 97 lb male GSD and a 63 lb female GSD - I paid $350 for Conor and took him through basic and advanced OB training myself. (We are all green when we start out, but you learn as you go.) I can assure you that when anyone they don't know comes to the boundary of our property, whether it's the fence or the front or back door, unless they are crazy or very determined they will not be granted admittance - and his "sister" will back him up 100%. Both these dogs can be highly intimidating until I or my DH let the person in and they realize this is a "friend." No PPD training was needed to achieve this result, they are just doing what GSD's with correct temperament are expected to do. GSD's are naturally protective, though as with any breed, some more than others. Therefore I wouldn't expect my dog to take on the burden of protecting us by itself - I'd learn to use a gun, or invest in martial arts training, and then we work as a team.
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

I just checked the date when this was originally posted - a year ago! So the OP probably has his dog by now. No matter, I'll leave my response for possible future reference....
_______________________________________
Susan

Anja Schh3 GSD
Conor GSD 
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Anja1Blue said:


> Rebel brings up some good points here. A true PPD dog is not like the average house pet, and you and your entire family will have to be on board and reinforce the training it has received FOR THE LIFE OF THE DOG. Hence the comment that peoples' committment can fade over the years - but this is a not a dog you let your guard down on. Not only that but most insurance companies will not insure you if they know you have a PPD. You could neglect to tell them of course, but if anything were to happen - if your dog went off on a visitor to your home for example (and yes, it's happened, they have also been known to attack family members which are seen as vulnerable, such as grandparents) you are then in deep trouble. I do not understand your desire for such a dog, unless it's for some sort of machismo. You have already stated that you don't live in a bad neighborhood. So unless you have an estate to guard or are a celebrity, or have a great number of valuable possessions that you don't want stolen - what is the point? I have a 97 lb male GSD and a 63 lb female GSD - I paid $350 for Conor and took him through basic and advanced OB training myself. (We are all green when we start out, but you learn as you go.) I can assure you that when anyone they don't know comes to the boundary of our property, whether it's the fence or the front or back door, unless they are crazy or very determined they will not be granted admittance - and his "sister" will back him up 100%. Both these dogs can be highly intimidating until I or my DH let the person in and they realize this is a "friend." No PPD training was needed to achieve this result, they are just doing what GSD's with correct temperament are expected to do. GSD's are naturally protective, though as with any breed, some more than others. Therefore I wouldn't expect my dog to take on the burden of protecting us by itself - I'd learn to use a gun, or invest in martial arts training, and then we work as a team.
> __________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> ...


 
true about the insurance company - some will not even cover GSD's at all. 

BUT, on the other hand, a *properly* trained PPD is probably safer than the average untrained GSD.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

codmaster said:


> true about the insurance company - some will not even cover GSD's at all.
> 
> BUT, on the other hand, a *properly* trained PPD is probably safer than the average untrained GSD.


Actually it's more like a properly trained PPD is probably safer than the average untrained DOG. I'd much rather be on the receiving end of a dog under control than by one that's not.


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