# Why the hate for crosses/mixes/hybrids?



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

I've noticed several on here have a disdain for crosses like the -doodles and -adors, and sheps. Why? 

Personally, I don't have one and don't plan to. However, hybrid vigor is a well established biological fact, and that alone is enough of reason to not dismiss them. 

Also, when it comes down to it, most breeds (including the German Shepherd) are ultimately just crosses themselves. Heck, in some ways the GSD is a century ago's Malidor.

So why the dismissive attitude? What makes a purebreed (especially one of recent origin) "better" than a deliberate cross, assuming everything else is equal (strong stock, health checks, and a knowledgeable breeder)? Why shouldn't breeders today try to do what Max did, and make new and better breeds?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I know I don't 'hate' them.... but they are just mixed breeds. And my 'just' I don't mean a lesser dog that doesn't deserve a great home and love. But 'just' because a mix is a mix is a mix.... wonderful dogs all but not 'special' either.

So the breeders that are getting thousands of dollars for these 'mixed' breeds when similiar mixes are dying every day in shelters... is my issue.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Because shelters are full?? Why make better breeds, the ones that are available should be focused on to keep them healthy in mind and body. Unfortunately it is also about the marketing of the designer dogs....big bucks for mutts. My mutt(rescue) Clover was amazing, and I always thought a border collie/ golden cross was a great mix, but that is just what it is a mix and either the herder or retriever would come thru, not always a stable combination.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

the biggest problem i've seen is the mixes that are intentional, they're only created as a fashion trend so to speak. Example is the oodle mixes. They're being bred here as a fashion trend and not really being kept track of except for profit. They're not usually selectively bred here like they are in Australia where the golden doodle originated. As they continue to breed them, we see more and more problems both physically and mentally. There is no standard. At least with breed standards, you have a basic idea of what you're getting whereas with a poodle mix, its a crapshoot. You could breed two oodle mixes together and expect to get the larger sized golden doodle and end up with the toy version. The biggest problem i have with the mixes is the lack of care and obvious intent for betterment of the "breed". Mixes happen already. There aren't usually any clear goals in mind with the exception of the fashion trend. Similar to when German Shepherds became a fashion trend which led to some pretty bad breeding that as a result of, we're constantly fighting against now. 

The issue is primarily with the lack of knowledge going into the breedings.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I know I don't 'hate' them.... but they are just mixed breeds. And my 'just' I don't mean a lesser dog that doesn't deserve a great home and love. But 'just' because a mix is a mix is a mix.... wonderful dogs all but not 'special' either.
> 
> So the breeders that are getting thousands of dollars for these 'mixed' breeds when similiar mixes are dying every day in shelters... is my issue.


To me that argument is very similar ultimately to why should a well bred German Shepherd command more than a BYB bred one... 

Ultimately it comes down to the breeder. A mix or cross done deliberately by someone with the proper knowledge can be more "special" than a random mutt for the same reason a well bred GSD bred with thought to the lines is generally better than a BYB bred dog with no thought.

Again, as with GSDs and other purebreds, it would ultimately come down to the knowledge and intent of the breeder... Ultimately I don't see why a smart breeder can't cross two breeds to get something better. Max von Stephanitz did...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

BR870 said:


> To me that argument is very similar ultimately to why should a well bred German Shepherd command more than a BYB bred one...
> 
> Ultimately it comes down to the breeder. A mix or cross done deliberately by someone with the proper knowledge can be more "special" than a random mutt for the same reason a well bred GSD bred with thought to the lines is generally better than a BYB bred dog with no thought.
> 
> Again, as with GSDs and other purebreds, it would ultimately come down to the knowledge and intent of the breeder... Ultimately I don't see why a smart breeder can't cross two breeds to get something better. Max von Stephanitz did...


 
as did the tax collector/shelter worker for who the Doberman is named. But this was MANY years ago. It takes YEARS and YEARS and YEARS to reach your breed goal when "creating" a new breed. Again, the biggest issue I have, is more "breeders" are interested in the $$$$ than actually creating a breed that has a job to do. Breeds have a breed standard for a reason. there are basic looks and traits that define the breed for a reason. They all serve a function in some way. They all have the same basic look. I'm also not thrilled with more shelter dogs and not enough homes. People forget when they get a mixed breed, they need to look at ALL traits from the breeds that are mixed in to have a better idea of what they're getting into and they dont do that.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I have no issue with the dogs. I have issue with the breeders of them. Like this one.. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../152694-worst-byb-attempt-look-reputable.html

The draw of designer dogs is based on false facts. Like hypoallergenic dogs..what a crock.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> I have no issue with the dogs. I have issue with the breeders of them. Like this one.. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../152694-worst-byb-attempt-look-reputable.html
> 
> The draw of designer dogs is based on false facts. Like hypoallergenic dogs..what a crock.


Agreed... Hypoallergenic dogs is a stupid reason to breed. 

I guess what got me started on this is that many here seem immediately dismissive, when in reality the GSD is a cross from a century ago. 

Admittedly, most designer dogs today are crosses from some pretty dumb reasons.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BR870 said:


> I've noticed several on here have a disdain for crosses like the -doodles and -adors, and sheps. Why?
> 
> Personally, I don't have one and don't plan to. However, hybrid vigor is a well established biological fact, and that alone is enough of reason to not dismiss them.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with mutts. I am reading Ribsy to my nieces. Ribsy is a mutt. 

However, I do have some issues with attitudes against purebred dogs, that are even parroted in your post. 

First of all, hybrid vigor? Well I would like to see some documented studies on this hybrid vigor. Mongrels are no healthier than purebred dogs. If you mix a shepherd with a collie, the puppies will be just as likely to have any of the problems that purebred shepherds and collies would have. 

Mutts that are mutts for generations, do not necessarily fare any better. Some of the owners of mongrels from the pound might leave them out back and not take them to the vet for every sniffle. Other people take their mutts in just as much as their purebreds and have just as many issues with them. Mutts have hip dysplasia too, but many people never know it because they do not run for x-rays, like those with purebreds who are on the lookout for the issue. 

There is a difference between how Max created the GSD breed, and how many breeds were established, and these current designer dogs. Max had a working dog purpose that he was aiming for. Many shepherds used one dog to guard the flock, like the Great Pyranese, and another dog to drive the sheep, the pyrean shepherd. Max wanted a utilitarian dog that could be used to herd the sheep, guard the sheep, protect crops from the sheep, etc, and a dog that could then come out of the fields and be a dog that would be trusted with the children and guard the farm/estate from scoundrels. Being an army officer probably factored into what he wanted these dogs to be, and quickly turned to military and police work with the dogs to ensure their future. 

He did not mix a pyrean shepherd with a Great Pyranese for his ultimate dog. He used shepherds native to Germany, and began honing the breed and breeding in desireable traits and breeding out undesireable traits. He bought Horand. And then he bred other dogs to him, and then inbred to set type. 

Much of what is done with these so-called designer breeds is the crossing of a poodle to a golden or a pug to a beagle or a poodle to a shih-tzu and instantly you have a shih-poo, pay me 1,800$ and you too can own a Shih-Poo, aren't you lucky. Got poodle? Got anything else? Let's sell them. What in the name of everything holy would be the reason for mixing a poodle to a Rottweiler? OMG!!! I'm going to get a RottyPoo! These people are making mixtures without doing any research.

I am reading Max's book, not done yet, but he documented everything, litter sizes, weights at what age, genetics, photos of various types of shepherd in many different places. He did not have the information for his research accessible by keyboard and internet. You can see that he did this with some discipline/science. 

On the other hand these designer breed people often sell their product with many false claims, and things they cannot possibly know, they will not shed, they will be healthier. The people who are mixing these dogs have no clue what the possible outcomes are. And their only purpose is to make money on them.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I know I don't 'hate' them.... but they are just mixed breeds. And my 'just' I don't mean a lesser dog that doesn't deserve a great home and love. But 'just' because a mix is a mix is a mix.... wonderful dogs all but not 'special' either.
> 
> So the breeders that are getting thousands of dollars for these 'mixed' breeds when similiar mixes are dying every day in shelters... is my issue.


This is so true where I live. I'll read the paper on Sunday and see ads for Labradoodles or Goldendoodles for $800--$1200. per puppy.
It's ridiculous when there isn't a standard and the big catchy selling point is "hypoallergenic"
I spend a lot of time with different breeds and types of dogs and what I can say about the "doodles" is that you take two highly intelligent highly trainable dogs and come up with an animal with not so keen intelligence.
Personally, that's not a behavior that interests me.
Or temprament for that matter; add that with inexperienced owners I see quite a few re-hab doodles that are fearful/shy dogs. I have seen curly doodles, wirehaired doodles, and some that look like they've used flat coated retrievers...wavy. 

I haven't been on Petfinder or my local area (within 60 miles) shelters sites lately, so I haven't noticed a rise in designer dogs ending up in shelters. We at this time have a terrible chihuahua problem. Our county at one time was flying them to other states.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

I have no hate for mix breed dogs themselves. My own Lucky was the best dog ever. 

I do have very much contempt for the people who breed them (intentionally or "accidentally") who dump the puppies at the shelter (or keep a puppy and dump mom), dupe the general public into paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a dog who's ancestry they don't know, while touting that this dog will never suffer a hereditary disease, won't set off the kids allergies, comes pretrained in everything from folding laundry to figuring out how to get Timmy out of the well without calling the fire department. Oh, and don't forget their poop is gold if you feed them Ol'Roy, the best dog food on the market.

Do I hold out hope that people will smarten up? Nope. Not after hearing my geneticist sister say mixes don't get hip dysplasia because they are different species. Proof someone can be book smart but dog stupid.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No hating here! My heart dog is a rescue mix. I've seen some intentionally bred mixes for high levels of sport or for service dog work. Sure there are plenty of people just trying to make a buck with the latest oodle-poo but there are just as many craptastic purebred breeders... I really don't know enough about these mixes, why they are bred, what they are accomplishing to condone or criticize. I don't particularly want one, but I'm not losing sleep over it.

The whole "dump puppies at the shelter" is lost on me. PEOPLE dump puppies at a shelter typically because they are lazy and realize they cannot be inconvenienced by their own dog anymore. It has nothing to do with purebred GSDs or labra-doodle mixes.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Sadly, our SPCA will get whole litters of puppies as young as 5-6 weeks because they haven't sold. It is lazy, but my take on the thread was mixes in general and not just high-priced "hybrids."


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Shepskies ? Huh?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The GSD & the doberman were developed with specific goals in mind. The GSD was developed to be a working dog. The original stock was, as I understand it, assorted breeds of shepherd dogs - but the individuals were selected with some care. (It wasn't developed primarily to make a buck.)
Designer dogs don't appear to be breeding to develop a breed that will reproduce uniformly. Instead it seems they are just taking X and crossying with Y. Then breeding the same pair or adding a new pair with no intent to breed the offspring with the goal of achieving consistent characterists outside of the initial crossed pairing.

At least that's the way I understand the argument.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:laugh: Yes! you can stop saying Bailey is a mix and say he is a Shepskie


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Abby has 2 playmates that are golden doodles. One is 26" tall,70 pounds (not fat) and is golden and sheds. The other is 15" tall, 25 pounds, black and doesn't shed. Both are very nice dogs (one has epilepsy) but I can't see with such a large variation in size and color that they can be called a 'breed'. I understand that shepherds come in many colors but at least there is a size standard (among many other standards).


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> :laugh: Yes! you can stop saying Bailey is a mix and say he is a Shepskie


 
I... refuse... to.... use... that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Dear, Lord.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

selzer said:


> I have no problem with mutts. I am reading Ribsy to my nieces. Ribsy is a mutt.
> 
> However, I do have some issues with attitudes against purebred dogs, that are even parroted in your post.
> 
> First of all, hybrid vigor? *Well I would like to see some documented studies on this hybrid vigor.* Mongrels are no healthier than purebred dogs. If you mix a shepherd with a collie, the puppies will be just as likely to have any of the problems that purebred shepherds and collies would have.


Really? Its really quite well documented...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Heterosis

heterosis (genetics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> The GSD & the doberman were developed with specific goals in mind. The GSD was developed to be a working dog. The original stock was, as I understand it, assorted breeds of shepherd dogs - but the individuals were selected with some care. (It wasn't developed primarily to make a buck.)
> Designer dogs don't appear to be breeding to develop a breed that will reproduce uniformly. Instead it seems they are just taking X and crossying with Y. Then breeding the same pair or adding a new pair with no intent to breed the offspring with the goal of achieving consistent characterists outside of the initial crossed pairing.
> 
> At least that's the way I understand the argument.


Again, that is more an issue with the specific practices of an individual breeder rather than the concept of crossing as a whole. You can find plenty of breeders within the pure breeds that will just as irresponsibly...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> But 'just' because a mix is a mix is a mix.... wonderful dogs all but not 'special' either.


Oh no, we are very special here.  Very, very special.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No hating here for mixes. In fact, I don't know anyone here who hates mixes. What is despised is the practice of breeding Designer Breeds for the purpose of making a buck. That practice isn't liked any better than BYB's and puppy mills. 

What I have never, ever understood is why someone will pay hundreds of dollars for a mutt. Some of them even think they have a purebred. I've heard people say that they have a purebred Labradoodle. uh...ok...but what you really have is a dog that is have poodle and have lab...i.e....a mixed breed dog that you could have adopted out of a shelter and spent way less money.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BR870 said:


> Really? Its really quite well documented...
> 
> Let me google that for you
> 
> heterosis (genetics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia


I am interested in individual studies done by scientists with control groups and a number of animals documented over a course of years with references and the whole nine yards.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I don't really have a problem with purposely bred mixes. They are not necessarily healthier than purebreds (plenty of Doodles with HD, epilepsy, allergies, etc) but the risk of some issues in some breeds _will _be lessened by outcrossing to another breed. The idea of closed stud books for purenred dogs is a fairly new concept anyway. And really it comes down to - people want these dogs.There are forums such as this dedicated to people who own and love Doodles. And some breeders are selectively breeding them and health testing. Quite a few service dog organizations are using Doodles now too. It may just be seeing so many purposely bred mixes day in and day out at work but it just doesn't really bother me. People should get the dog they want and if the dog they want is a purposely bred mix, what difference does it make? Some of the sport bred mixes are really cool and there is a big demand for them.

A "shelter mix" is not really the same as getting a purposely bred mix puppy, just like a shelter mix isn't the same as getting a planned purebred puppy. IMO that "breeding litters kills shelter dogs" just AR propaganda. People seldom say "I'm going to either buy this specific puppy or go get a random mixed breed from the shelter". People tend to want to get a mixed breed rescue or want to buy a specific puppy. Yes you can find Doodles in shelters/rescue but it's not common to find Doodle puppies (that one is sure is actually a LabxPoodle) in shelters/rescues. An exception might be rescues that buy desirable purebred and mixes at dog auctions then charge $500-1000 adoption fees for them.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Who could hate the adorable Malshis?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't appreciate the ones who breed anything to a poodle just because they can charge more money, give it a cutesy name or tout so called hypoallergenic coats. But I do not have a problem when it is done for a "decent" reason. In Dalmatians a breeder added Pointer because so many Dals were developing bladder stones that it was rampant in the breed. The Pointer crossed Dals did not have that issue so in that case I suppose hybrid vigor came into play. But taking two dogs of differing breeds and mating them will not result automatically in healthy puppies which is how the general population seems to interpret hybrid vigor - my own mom is guilty of thinking that way. A dysplastic Golden bred to a dysplastic GSD will not result in a litter of puppies with excellent hips just because they are a mix of two breeds. I see so many designer breeders state that their puppies are stronger/healthier/better than "inbred" purebreds and they don't do any health testing. How many Doodle breeders do you see that test for SA/OFA/Cerf/whatever other disease they are prone to? Not very many and the reason why many don't? They tout hybrid vigor as their reason.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am interested in individual studies done by scientists with control groups and a number of animals documented over a course of years with references and the whole nine yards.


Again, really? It is one of the most well documented and frequently observed phenomena in genetics. There are innumerable studies done on it. 

But if you insist

Molecular heterosis: a review. [Mol Genet Metab. 2000 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/35/12957.full.pdf
Crossbreeding Beef Cattle - Home - Virginia Cooperative Extension
Heterosis
Heterosis
Heterosis Effects on Growth Rate and Feed Efficiency of Beef Steers

This is just a few that I found with less than 5 minutes... You can literally find HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of studies on heterosis with just a simple search online.

Some more:

*Dobzhansky, T. *1952. Nature and origin of heterosis. In Heterosis. J.W. Gowen (ed). Iowa State College Press.
*Dobzhansky, T. *1955. A review of some fundamental concepts and problems of genetics. Cold Spring Harbour Symposium. 20:1-15.
*Dobzhansky, T. and O. Pavlovsky.* 1955. An extreme case of heterosis in a central American population of Drosophila tropicalis. Nat. Acad. Sci. Proc. 41:289-295.
*Kojima, K. *1971. The distribution and comparison of "genetic loads" under heterotic selection and simple frequency dependent selection in finite populations. Theor. Pop. Biol. 2(2):159-173.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

spiritsmom said:


> I don't appreciate the ones who breed anything to a poodle just because they can charge more money, give it a cutesy name or tout so called hypoallergenic coats. But I do not have a problem when it is done for a "decent" reason. In Dalmatians a breeder added Pointer because so many Dals were developing bladder stones that it was rampant in the breed. The Pointer crossed Dals did not have that issue so in that case I suppose hybrid vigor came into play. But taking two dogs of differing breeds and mating them will not result automatically in healthy puppies which is how the general population seems to interpret hybrid vigor - my own mom is guilty of thinking that way. A dysplastic Golden bred to a dysplastic GSD will not result in a litter of puppies with excellent hips just because they are a mix of two breeds. I see so many designer breeders state that their puppies are stronger/healthier/better than "inbred" purebreds and they don't do any health testing. How many Doodle breeders do you see that test for SA/OFA/Cerf/whatever other disease they are prone to? Not very many and the reason why many don't? They tout hybrid vigor as their reason.


Which is why I specifically stated in the OP that all other considerations (like health testing) must for this discussion be assumed to be equal. Otherwise what you are really opposing is the breeding practices of the individual breeder, not cross-breeding as a whole..


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Again, really? It is one of the most well documented and frequently observed phenomena in genetics. There are innumerable studies done on it.
> 
> But if you insist
> 
> ...


Here are more than 1100 articles on Heterosis from just the Journal of Animal Sciences.

Search Results

Thats just one peer-reviewed journal. I'm sure you can find many many more...

Heterosis is not up for debate. Its a well established phenomena, much like its flip side Inbreeding Depression...


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Personally, I don't have one and don't plan to. However, hybrid vigor is a well established biological fact, and that alone is enough of reason to not dismiss them.


Not so, if you breed a GSD with bad hips to a Poodle with bad hips you're going to get puppies with bad hips. This 'vigor' term is stolen from the fact that true 'mixed' breed dogs tend to show less genetic issues because it's a complete lottery what breeds are going to be in the mix and thus less likely for bad genetics to come out. 

Breeding a purebred with defects to another purebred with defects is not going to give you a genetically superior dog!

Anyway, I'm all for dog breeds that have a purpose... dogs bred as a fad and mixed with little to no concern for their temperament or well being are not thought of highly in my book.

The original 'doodles' had a purpose -- however, that purpose (of being 'hypoallergenic') was dis-proven!


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am interested in individual studies done by scientists with control groups and a number of animals documented over a course of years with references and the whole nine yards.


This. Just because the Encyclopedia Britannica says it's true does not validate breeding a poorly bred Poodle to a poorly bred GSD to get a genetically superior German-whatever-doodle.

Why not google acceptable studies that have done valid research using a large sample size and spanning over many years.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> The original 'doodles' had a purpose -- however, that purpose (of being 'hypoallergenic') was dis-proven!


Hypoallergenic Pets a Myth?

Hypoallergenic pets may be only a myth, according to a study of 60 dog breeds - The Washington Post

"If Wally Conron had known what was going to become of the labradoodle, he wouldn't have bred the dog in the first place."

Wally Conron the father of the labradoodle:
"_I went to our PR team and said, 'Go to the press and tell them we've invented a new dog, the labradoodle.' It was a gimmick, and it went worldwide. No one wanted a crossbreed, but the following day we had hundreds of calls from people wanting these master dogs_."

Whose bright idea was that? | Science | The Guardian


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

I love my mutts I have 2. I will always have a mutt. I am not a fan of these designer breeds. They are mutts being bred by people to make a quick $$$ and really for no other reason. So that's why I don't like it. I don't like the fact that just anyone can breed dogs. 

I do think mutts are healthier most of the time. All the mutts I have met and known lived a really long healthy lives. My border collie mix was 16 when we lost her she might have lived another year but quality of life became an issue. 

I love my mutt the random oops mutts the rescues and pound pups. But the designer breeds I don't like it's just people adding to the dog over population.

Yes most breeds were Mutts at one time. mixing breeds to get the qualities they want very common. Like the Doberman and boxer.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Here's the rottypoo you asked for! 

Rottle | Rottles - Poodle x Rottweiler


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> This. Just because the Encyclopedia Britannica says it's true does not validate breeding a poorly bred Poodle to a poorly bred GSD to get a genetically superior German-whatever-doodle.
> 
> Why not google acceptable studies that have done valid research using a large sample size and spanning over many years.


When at any point did I imply that this was about breeding a "poorly bred Poodle to a poorly bred GSD"? That is you inserting your own bias into this. I specifically stated that all other breeding practices must be assumed to be the same as with any reputable breeder. 

I understand why one would not support someone who breeds a poodle to a GSD just for the looks, but that is an issue with the specific lack of direction and only doing it for fashion reasons. I have just as many issues with similar breeding practices within purebreeds for specific deleterious conformation traits.

But assuming everything else is equal, as stated in the OP, good stock (IOW no "poorly bred" anything), necessary health testing, and a strong working knowledge of both lines being used... I stated as much in the first post... Assuming all that is there, a person could make sound crosses.

Does that mean all crosses are sound? Heck no...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shaina said:


> Here's the rottypoo you asked for!
> 
> Rottle | Rottles - Poodle x Rottweiler


Uhg! The poor dog, is questioning, I know I look like a big schnauzer but my mother was a Rottweiler and my dad was a poodle. I really don't favor either of them.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Some of these threads are really entertaining. So far no one has said they hate mixes/crosses /or hybrids. They may not like people breeding them because of the pet overpopulation.but don't hate the dogs. Where did you get the idea that anyone did?


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

BR870 said:


> When at any point did I imply that this was about breeding a "poorly bred Poodle to a poorly bred GSD"? That is you inserting your own bias into this. I specifically stated that all other breeding practices must be assumed to be the same as with any reputable breeder.
> 
> I understand why one would not support someone who breeds a poodle to a GSD just for the looks, but that is an issue with the specific lack of direction and only doing it for fashion reasons. I have just as many issues with similar breeding practices within purebreeds for specific deleterious conformation traits.
> 
> ...


Then I think for your own purposes you should define 'reputable' because in my definition, no reputable breeder would cross out two breeds of dogs! 

Those who are attempting to legitimately create a new breed of dog do not continuously breed one purebred to another. One of the definitions of a purebred dog is a dog that will breed pure! One that will produce consistent offspring and those pups will produce consistent offspring and so on and so on. This is not true with the 'doodle' mixes.

Breeders who cross breeds are not reputable and thus it cannot be assumed they abide by breeding ethics.

On top of that, breeders who sell dogs to people who are going to cross their puppy to another breed of dog are not buying their puppies from reputable breeders! A reputable breeder sells puppies on limited registration if they are not going to be working dogs or show dogs. A reputable breeder is not going to sell a puppy as just another breeding dog! Especially not to a breeder who is going to taint their lines!

So there goes your claim that they are starting with genetically healthy dogs of exceptional background and pedigree!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

e.rigby said:


> Then I think for your own purposes you should define 'reputable' because in my definition, no reputable breeder would cross out two breeds of dogs!
> 
> Those who are attempting to legitimately create a new breed of dog do not continuously breed one purebred to another. One of the definitions of a purebred dog is a dog that will breed pure! One that will produce consistent offspring and those pups will produce consistent offspring and so on and so on. This is not true with the 'doodle' mixes.
> 
> ...


I do not agree about people use of limited registration. In this incidence limited registration would not work to prevent this sort of thing. You can not register a Rottle with the AKC. So the fact the poodle or the Rottweiler had a limited registration makes no difference whatsoever.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Rottypoo? Seriously? Wow. Never heard of such a thing. But then again, I'd never heard of a Shepersky. (sp?) and I guess I actually own one.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Some of these threads are really entertaining. So far no one has said they hate mixes/crosses /or hybrids. They may not like people breeding them because of the pet overpopulation.but don't hate the dogs. Where did you get the idea that anyone did?


I never said they hate the dogs. There is a mindset that says there is never a good reason to outcross. You see it here in this thread. People saying things like "No reputable breeder would ever out cross"

Plenty of great breeds are the result of out crossing in just the last century. ****, the GSD is only barely a hundred years from being a out cross...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't think people were saying that hybrid vigor in general was a myth, I think they were just saying it did not apply to dogs.



BR870 said:


> I've noticed several on here have a disdain for crosses like the -doodles and -adors, and sheps. Why?


I have no problems with mixes/crosses. I love mixed breeds. 
What I have a problem with is_ most_ of the people deliberately crossing two breeds are NOT doing so to create a healthier dog or to fill a specific need. Most are doing it because they think the puppies will look cute and to make money. Most are also not trying to get specific traits in order to create a new breed, they often don't even go beyond a first generation cross so there is no way a new breed could be created.

Most people crossing two breeds are also not doing the necessary health testing or other tests for whether dogs should be bred (temperament, show/working titles, etc...)

I have no problem with outcrossing however. In fact I think that many of the breeds around today are going to be in major trouble in the future if they don't start bringing in "new blood". However this should be done very carefully, with dogs whose genetics have been thoroughly researched, who have proper temperaments and who have generations of ancestors who have been health tested. Not by just taking two breeds and randomly crossing them.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

selzer said:


> I do not agree about people use of limited registration. In this incidence limited registration would not work to prevent this sort of thing. You can not register a Rottle with the AKC. So the fact the poodle or the Rottweiler had a limited registration makes no difference whatsoever.


A spay/neuter contract would. However, sometimes breeders with strict spay/neuter contracts hurt those that wish to wait till their dogs are done growing. Not every breeder will allow the buyer to wait til the dog is 24months! However, overall, I think such contracts are also necessary to prevent your average joe from attempting to breed his dog (or even worse, create a new mutt)


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

BR870 said:


> I never said they hate the dogs. There is a mindset that says there is never a good reason to outcross. You see it here in this thread. People saying things like "No reputable breeder would ever out cross"
> 
> Plenty of great breeds are the result of out crossing in just the last century. ****, the GSD is only barely a hundred years from being a out cross...


You're wrong though. You're talking about different things all together! The breeders creating these stupid 'doodle' breeds are not out to create a new breed. Again, their dogs do not breed true. They are just out to ride the fad. 

If any are actual serious, then they should be figuring out ways to stop using purebred dogs to create their 'breed' of dog. 

I am not against the creation of a new breed - just against the rampant breeding of dogs to one another thinking that all you have to do to make a new breed of dog is mix a poodle with a lab and walah! You have a brand new breed.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> Most people crossing two breeds are also not doing the necessary health testing or other tests for whether dogs should be bred (temperament, show/working titles, etc...)


Agreed. Most don't. But if you are being honest, you'll admit that most "purebreed" breeders don't do those things either. That is why reputable breeders are in the minority and every neighborhood has several Backyard Breeders.



> I have no problem with outcrossing however. In fact I think that many of the breeds around today are going to be in major trouble in the future if they don't start bringing in "new blood". However this should be done very carefully, with dogs whose genetics have been thoroughly researched, who have proper temperaments and who have generations of ancestors who have been health tested. Not by just taking two breeds and randomly crossing them.


This is exactly where I am going with this.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> You're wrong though. You're talking about different things all together! The breeders creating these stupid 'doodle' breeds are not out to create a new breed. Again, their dogs do not breed true. They are just out to ride the fad.
> 
> If any are actual serious, then they should be figuring out ways to stop using purebred dogs to create their 'breed' of dog.
> 
> I am not against the creation of a new breed - just against the rampant breeding of dogs to one another thinking that all you have to do to make a new breed of dog is mix a poodle with a lab and walah! You have a brand new breed.


While I totally disagree with the Labradoodle as a whole, there are many multigenerational lines of Labradoodle. Some of them don't have an AKC purebreed until you get back several generations...

For example take this Labradoodle breeder I just found...*

Doodle Labradoodles

They require a purchase contract, do OFA screening, and have multigenerational dogs that are not bred from pure breds until 3 or more generations back...

...That in itself is not enough to call them responsible. I don't know them, and have never talked to them. Just pointing out that some of them do use health checks, and contracts, and their breeding program is multigenerational. That is many of the same steps we would require to call a GSD breeder "responsible". 

Does that mean I would ever consider one? Heck no! I friggen hate poodles, and think the whole "hypo-allergenic" thing is a crock. It doesn't mean that most "doodle" breeders are of this level either. However I don't think its fair to say there is no difference between a multi-generation "doodle" and a common oops litter mutt

*in no way an endorsement of this breeder. Just used as an example...


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

So taking your example, just what exactly are they breeding for? What's the standard as far as structure? As far as temperament? Color/coat/height/weight/etc 

All I see is a site from a person who 'cares' about the dogs she breeds, but other than that and some health testing, isn't (imo) breeding for anything. 

When the GSD was being conceived, there was a set of standards (ideals) that were trying to be achieved! And all breedings were in some way or another geared toward that. 

I just don't see that with this breeder.

I'm really (honestly) not against new breeds. I absolutely adore the Silken Windhounds (which are smaller versions of the Borzoi - though they are not just Borzois bred to smaller Borzois... they are a combination of sight hounds to create a dog that has the speed of a sight hound, but the look and coat of the Borzoi. The purpose varies, but part of the reason for creating the breed was to create a small sighthound with a coat -- because the smooth coated sighthounds such as whippets and iggies were at risk of injury due to minimal protection against the elements!)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

BR870 said:


> They require a purchase contract, do OFA screening, and have multigenerational dogs that are not bred from pure breds until 3 or more generations back...
> 
> ...That in itself is not enough to call them responsible. I don't know them, and have never talked to them. Just pointing out that some of them do use health checks, and contracts, and their breeding program is multigenerational. That is many of the same steps we would require to call a GSD breeder "responsible".


Yes some of them do, but it is hard to find a breeder of "designer dogs" who does any of those things. Even harder to find one who titles dogs or is actually breeding towards a goal and for a specific purpose besides "make good pets" or the mythical hypoallergenic dogs.

Sure there are plenty of breeders of purebreds that are not responsible as well, but it is not as rare to find a responsible one as it is with cross breeds, and I'm sure most of the people here don't like irresponsible breeders of purebreds any more than they like breeders of mixes.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I had a neighbor once that breed her dalmation with a basset hound. She called them dalahounds or something silly like that in the paper.

She was asking $600 for them and sold every one within a day.

My hubby and I were shocked b/c her dalmation was very aggressive. She just laughted and told him people were silly. Put a cute name on it and people will buy.

Make a good ad and people will buy.

Did y'all ever read the best of Craigslist about the mean, hideous cur? It's funny as heck

craigslist'in en iyileri: Hideous, Mean, Saggy-titted Cur


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

e.rigby said:


> Not so, if you breed a GSD with bad hips to a Poodle with bad hips you're going to get puppies with bad hips.


 
HD isn't quite as simple as that. You can breed two dogs with excellent hips and get puppies with bad hips. You can breed two dogs with bad hips and get puppies who have normal hips. However, the risk some health issues will be reduced because they are not as "common" in the average canine population as HD. This is why adding a Pointer into a Dal line greatly reduced the risk of stone forming in the line. About The Dalmatian Heritage Project - Dalmatian Puppy Breeding & Adoption - Hayward, California



e.rigby said:


> S
> All I see is a site from a person who 'cares' about the dogs she breeds, but other than that and some health testing, isn't (imo) breeding for anything.


 She's breeding to fill the niche of people who want health tested Labradoodles for pets. Lots of breeds are bred solely as companions.



e.rigby said:


> The purpose varies, but part of the reason for creating the breed was to create a small sighthound with a coat -- because the smooth coated sighthounds such as whippets and iggies were at risk of injury due to minimal protection against the elements!)


 I'm a fan of the Silken Windhounds too. They were admittedly bred because no breed fit the niche of people wanting a smaller, longhaired sighthound. They were not bred for working purposes but because people liked longhaired sighthounds and wanted smaller ones. 

"After considering options since 1975, a Borzoi breeder, Francie Stull, determined that a smaller hound with wonderful temperament, long coat, all-around good health, with the poise and sporting abilities of the larger sighthounds, would be an ideal second breed for her kennel."
ISWS - International Silken Windhound Society



e.rigby said:


> Then I think for your own purposes you should define 'reputable' because in my definition, no reputable breeder would cross out two breeds of dogs!


 That is a pretty broad statement. 

Sport mixes:
Border Collie Information, Puppies, Training, Boarding - WORKING BEARDIES
On Target Border Collies - Upcoming Border Collie Cross Litters

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Burnin-Rubbers-Border-whippets/178250151589

Working mixes:
Hangin' Tree Cowdog

Celtic Lurchers: Our Lurchers

Alaskans

New breeds created by mixing breeds:

Alaskan Klee Kai Association of America - AKKAOA

ISWS - International Silken Windhound Society

Not as new breeds created by mixing breeds (or wolves :O):

The Recreated Ancient Eurasian Spitz Retrieverman's Weblog

Home

DPCA | The Doberman | History



e.rigby said:


> The original 'doodles' had a purpose -- however, that purpose (of being 'hypoallergenic') was dis-proven!


 The purpose was to breed a lower allergy service dog and I'm not sure you can say it was "disproven" when plenty of service dog orgs are happily using Doodles in their programs. 
Spring Creek Labradoodles: Labradoodle Service Dogs, puppies available
In training - News - The Battalion - Texas A&M

Some people are also using them for hunting:

Member Photos - Milford Hills


Australian Labradoodle Breeder Allergy Friendly Labradoodles Multi Gen Puppies For Sale


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

e.rigby said:


> A spay/neuter contract would. However, sometimes breeders with strict spay/neuter contracts hurt those that wish to wait till their dogs are done growing. Not every breeder will allow the buyer to wait til the dog is 24months! However, overall, I think such contracts are also necessary to prevent your average joe from attempting to breed his dog (or even worse, create a new mutt)


I do not believe that spay/neuter is healthy and do not do it to my own dogs unless there is a problem with the part. How can I in good conscience require it of others?

It comes down to trust. If I do not trust someone to own my pup responsibly, I will not sell them a puppy. I have made a couple of mistakes over the years. But, I hope I am getting better at reading people. If someone is a scoundrel, a spay/neuter contract, and limited registration is not going to protect the dog.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't hate mixes, my last 2 dogs were mixes. I just have an issue with the morons breeding them for $$ and slapping a cute or weird name on them to make more $$. I am against anyone breeding for $$, whether its a purebred or mix.

I only reason anyone should be crossing two breeds together is for a good logical reason such as improving a breed or making something better.Thats the reason anyone should be breeding. They be breeding to better a breed. They breed mixes in the military and for police(I think) for better working dogs(I think. Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.) I have heard of farmers breeding different herding breeds together make better herding dogs.

Right now, there are too many people out there breeding mix dogs for cuteness, $$ and just stupid reasons. And IMO, mix breeds weren't hybrids, they are a cross between two different dogs, not two different species(Using the term "hybrid", IMO, is another ploy to get people to pay more $$ for mixed breed dogs.)


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Did anybody watch Judge Judy the other day? It had a woman suing a breeder for fraud?

His ad was in the paper.

The woman met the man in a parking lot to buy a toy chihuahua pup at 3 weeks old. Then she met him later in another parking lot to pick up pup.

As the dog started to grow, she realize it was NOT a toy chihuahua or a toy anything. I think it was 12pds. She had DNA testing done, and the pup had 7 different breeds....but not one chihuahua in it's test.


Anyway, the judge told the breeder that she was going to contact his local humane society to come check his place out b/c she though he was nothing but a puppy mill that lies to people.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't have a problem with mixes. I do have a problem with people breeding them and telling people they are "rare", "new breed", and charging a thousand bucks for them. It's all about marketing and people fall for it all the time.

I have not met ONE labra/golden doodle that I liked, they were all hectic, crazy dogs that did not impress me one bit 

There are so many dogs that need a home,that are 'mixes', why add to it and really rip off the uninformed public.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

selzer said:


> It comes down to trust. If I do not trust someone to own my pup responsibly, I will not sell them a puppy. I have made a couple of mistakes over the years. But, I hope I am getting better at reading people. If someone is a scoundrel, a spay/neuter contract, and limited registration is not going to protect the dog.


When I was breeding I had the exact same thoughts. I also discovered through fellow breeders that most contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on in that the courts generally consider dog property and the owner in possession of said property has the right to do whatever they want within the law. If someone is going to be a responsible owner or not, the piece of paper wasn't really going to effect the situation. I had to learn, like Selzer, to read buyers better and also to educate the buyers about the breed and preserving it if I could.
More than once, AKC has reversed limited registrations regardless of the breeder's wishes, so while limited registration sounds great, a person who wants to will get around it.

Annette


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I know and/or have heard about plenty of people who did not abide by their dog's (responsible) breeder's contract, including giving the dog to a shelter/rescue or selling it. In most cases I don't think they breeder ever knew.


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