# Seeking breeder advice: lower jaw growth patterns in puppies



## ollie_leyna

Hi All,

I've been looking for overbite advice in the health issues forum (see "5 mo old ollie's overbite..."), and someone suggested I post on here for feedback. 

My pup has a class II malocclusion according to the specialist I saw today (a 1/2" gap), but the same specialist wants to jump straight to a surgical fix (a grind and cap job for the lower canines). He told me that the growth spurt is over for puppies by 20 weeks, and that his jaw will stay the way it is.

I was hoping you guys might have a more informed answer. Neither parent had overbite issues, and neither do any of the other pups. The breeder didn't seem to have much knowledge about overbites though. :-/ 

Do you guys have any overbite success stories? Or does anyone have a different opinion about lower jaw growth? I would like to wait and give his lower jaw a chance to catch up so that we can maybe just move the lower canines rather than grind them. However, if that's unlikely, then I'd hate to wait and have him in pain over his teeth. 

Thanks for reading guys!


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## LisaT

Here is her post in health: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...e-i-need-advice-canine-into-upper-palate.html


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## lhczth

I have seen this type of overbite correct itself by 8-9 months and I have seen it never correct itself (get better, but still a problem). I, personally, would not be jumping into having surgery on a 5 month old puppy. GSD are far from being done growing at that age. I would give it another month before making a decision that involves something so drastic.


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## Andaka

I'm with Lisa. The upper jaw grows first, then the lower jaw often grows to catch up (or at least close).


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## ollie_leyna

Here's the new batch of photos


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## Liesje

My question is this....it's either going to correct over time or not, so what is the risk of waiting another month or two? If it doesn't correct, you can still do the surgery right? Or is it only something that can be done now? Which would seem odd since the dog is so young, those teeth aren't even all the way in yet.

That's what Pan looked like and his bite had perfected by 12 months, got the SV dental notation to prove it. He was never reluctant to eat, chew, or play tug so I waited it out but it was hard because I've already had a dog with an overbite that never corrected even though everyone told me to wait (though his is not bad enough to do anything about, just maybe 1/4" off so cosmetic).


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## onyx'girl

Wonder if dogs get TMJ as we do if our 'bite' is a bit off? My jaw clicks now, I never had braces and have straight teeth but should have hand some work done on my lower teeth as I do have an overbite.


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## robinhuerta

I agree with Lisa and the others......wait.
Waiting for a couple of months at least, will not cause any more problems than he already displays.....he has plenty of time to have surgery if it doesn't correct or gets worse.


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## carmspack

would you consider 1/8th of an inch an overbite.

what are the genetics ? dominant?

interesting that this is a topic. Was speaking with a friend earlier in the morning . She asked me to see if there are lines which are known for slight overbite .


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## sharkey19

Are the lower canines going into the palate at the top of the mouth? I think it is generally recommended that something be done at that point because of the possibility for the pain it may cause (which may be why the specialist didn't recommend to wait and see). 

Also, did you get the puppy from a breeder in NY? I read somewhere that there is a "puppy lemon law", and it would require the breeder to be responsible for paying to correct these defects if you choose to do so. Might be worth looking into?


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## selzer

sharkey19 said:


> Are the lower canines going into the palate at the top of the mouth? I think it is generally recommended that something be done at that point because of the possibility for the pain it may cause (which may be why the specialist didn't recommend to wait and see).
> 
> Also, did you get the puppy from a breeder in NY? I read somewhere that there is a "puppy lemon law", and it would require the breeder to be responsible for paying to correct these defects if you choose to do so. Might be worth looking into?


The best way to ensure that there will be no dogs anywhere in the future is to force breeders to pay for every imperfection.


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## sharkey19

selzer said:


> The best way to ensure that there will be no dogs anywhere in the future is to force breeders to pay for every imperfection.


I can't say I know the details of the laws, I only heard it in passing. I think if they deal with conditions that cause health issues for the puppy, and that are seen early on in the puppies life, I don't really see problems with it.


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## Andaka

carmspack said:


> would you consider 1/8th of an inch an overbite.
> 
> what are the genetics ? dominant?
> 
> interesting that this is a topic. Was speaking with a friend earlier in the morning . She asked me to see if there are lines which are known for slight overbite .


I wouldn't consider it dominanat since neither parent had an overbite. It would be very easy to eradicate if it were a dominant gene since not breeding dogs having an overbite would get rid of it. More likely it is a series of genes affecting jas length.


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## selzer

sharkey19 said:


> I can't say I know the details of the laws, I only heard it in passing. I think if they deal with conditions that cause health issues for the puppy, and that are seen early on in the puppies life, I don't really see problems with it.


Well I do. There is no such thing as perfect when you are talking about living creatures. The breeder in this instance can tell the owner to leave it be and it will most likely clean up on its own. But the owner might say, well gee I won't have to pay for it (if that is the case) and op for surgery. They may think the breeder is just trying to get out of paying by asking they wait.

If a breeder has to pay for ANY veterinary interference the breeder should be in charge of what is done and what is not done. It is completely wrong for vets and owners to get together and "treat" the dog at the breeders expense. If that was followed, no one would breed dogs, no one would sell them. Those who want to continue the breed, would breed a litter and cull the ones they did not want.


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## MaggieRoseLee

So the places where I have purple arrows are where your pups lower canines are now growing up and into the upper palate. Being HELD IN PLACE by the holes in the upper palate. 

I'm a bit confused how this will fix itself as everyone is suggesting, when it looks to me like they will just continue to grow up and into the holes that are being dug into the upper jaw. How can they grow into their natural position, even if the jaw does adjust, when every time the pup closes it's mouth the teeth will continue to rest (and grow) into the pockets in the photo?


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## Liesje

Carmen I'm bad at measurements but I think according to the SV if they can stick a matchstick into the overbite, then it's too big. I don't know how wide the tip of a matchstick is. That's what they did to my dog. He was borderline and given his age at that time, the judge simply excused us from getting a dental notation (rather than noting the overbite) and said to come back when the dog was older. It hasn't changed since then and I've had people say everything from it doesn't matter at all (dog would V, KKL1) to people saying it's too big and the dog's pedigree would be "banned" if I tried to breed survey him. As far as I know, neither the parents and none of the siblings have the overbite.


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## sharkey19

selzer said:


> Well I do. There is no such thing as perfect when you are talking about living creatures. The breeder in this instance can tell the owner to leave it be and it will most likely clean up on its own. But the owner might say, well gee I won't have to pay for it (if that is the case) and op for surgery. They may think the breeder is just trying to get out of paying by asking they wait.
> 
> If a breeder has to pay for ANY veterinary interference the breeder should be in charge of what is done and what is not done. It is completely wrong for vets and owners to get together and "treat" the dog at the breeders expense. If that was followed, no one would breed dogs, no one would sell them. Those who want to continue the breed, would breed a litter and cull the ones they did not want.


Well I don't think it is up to the breeder to make medical decisions, but I do think they have the right to consult with vets for second opinions before they have to pay for anything. From what I have found online, it says that people have 2 weeks from purchase to note any serious infectious or congenital/hereditary defects in NY. I think this is more than fair. I would imagine most good breeders would be ok with this seeing how many have health guarantees anyways.


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## abakerrr

Maggie - Nobody is saying that this _will_ fix itself, but the hope is for the possibility that it _might_, particularly when the only option presented besides 'waiting it out' would be the irreversible grinding and capping of two major teeth. 

I chimed in on the other thread but my pup had a 'hole' in the roof of her mouth from her base narrow canine at 5 months old (the result of a retain baby tooth). What appeared to happen was her budding bottom tooth started shifting around in position as her mouth grew and upon rubbing up against her upper right canine (fighting for space in her mouth) the bottom tooth slowly moved to fit in a spot that didn't apply pressure (where it was supposed to go). The tooth indentation in Kai's upper palate began shifting around from inside the upper canine tooth to the outside, eventually disappearing when the tip of the tooth finally rested within the natural groove of the upper gum line, where the lower canine typically rests.


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## robinhuerta

We have noticed that is some dogs (WL & SL), they lack a strong under-jaw.
Some puppies & young dogs (with this obvious characteristic) tend to have their under jaw grow more slowly, and periodically can have slight to significant over bites until the lower jaw completely develops.
Many times these dogs will still have a weaker under-jaw development when more mature.
1/8- 1/4 inch overbites in puppies or young dogs* often* correct themselves.


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## holland

I took Rorie to a dental specialist-at Cornell University You could always ask your vet if it would be worth going there to ask their opinion


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## selzer

sharkey19 said:


> Well I don't think it is up to the breeder to make medical decisions, but I do think they have the right to consult with vets for second opinions before they have to pay for anything. From what I have found online, it says that people have 2 weeks from purchase to note any serious infectious or congenital/hereditary defects in NY. I think this is more than fair. I would imagine most good breeders would be ok with this seeing how many have health guarantees anyways.


The dog is five months old. I think the two-weeks are probably up. What do people who get a pup from the pound do, charge the government for every vet bill? 

I am sorry, but most good breeders will give a pup 2 weeks, longer on major things. But we generally say that we will take the pup back and refund the purchase price. That way we have control over what is done to the puppy. Too many people listen to the first vet and sometimes that vet is not correct. In any case breeders should not be compelled to pay vet bills for dogs they have sold. If the breeder wants to refund a part of the purchase price and let them keep the puppy, or if the breeder wants to help them out, that is another matter.

ETA: This is an interesting question but I think it takes away from the problem here as this pup is five months old. And maybe it should have a thread to itself.


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## Liesje

I don't think the breeder should have to pay for anything, nor do I think the OP ever brought that up. Whether or not the breeder has any responsibility depends on the agreement between the breeder and the owner. For example my Pan came with a written contract that states I can get a "replacement" dog (return Pan and/or get another) for any genetic problem that prevents the dog from passing the breed survey. Anything more than minor dental imperfections prevent a dog from passing a breed survey, so if Pan's teeth stayed as they were at 5-6 months, I probably would have brought him back (because at that time his teeth were so bad I would not have been OK doing bitework and protection sports with him). The dog can't be breed surveyed until he's at least 18 months anyway, and I'd know by then if the teeth were going to sort themselves out or not, so I waited and they turned out fine. I would have kept him even if they weren't perfect, I only would have returned him if the bite needed major work and prevented him from comfortably doing normal GSD "work" (bitework/protection work).


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## selzer

Yeah I agree, the suggestion was made to go after the breeder because of puppy lemon laws, and I had to counter that. I think the topic of breeders paying for vet expenses of dogs they sell should be its own topic. And I agree that the OP did not mention anything of the sort. On the first thread, I suggested she ASK her breeder what her advice would be. I did not suggest that for any monetary reason, just that breeders have a lot more experience sometimes with a variety of things, an only the breeder of this pup will know how the pup's parents developed with regard to their bite, whether they seemed to have an overbite, whether it cleared up on its own, etc. Not for any type of compensation. 

Sometimes calling your breeder can actually save you money at the vet, sometimes. This is another reason to go with someone with a good track record and experience.


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## Liesje

I agree, Sue. I ultimately waited out Pan's teeth because of what I found out about the parents and siblings, which is not information any vet could have provided. Breeders should have this sort of knowledge about their lines and what they produce.


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## ollie_leyna

holland said:


> I took Rorie to a dental specialist-at Cornell University You could always ask your vet if it would be worth going there to ask their opinion


That's my next step--I'm just waiting for Cornell to call me back


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## holland

Cornell is an awesome place!


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