# Newly adopted adult pair both biters . . .



## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

My wife and I just adopted two 7 year old gsd's that have been together all their lives. The female is dominant over the male and he's obviously content with his pace within their two-member pack. They are both very aggressive to us, but the male is extremely aggressive.

We cannot even think about having any contact with them. I know they are stressed and hissed off after having been relocated from the only home they ever knew, and I know we have to allow them to begin to trust us on their on time table which will be very very long term. 

Last night the male tried to climb the fence to get to me. It was obvious he wasn't just trying to assert his dominance, he wanted to get his fangs on me I have no doubt whatsoever. At one point it looked like he might be able to get over but he fell backward and didn't try again - but I assure he was trying to scale the fence. 

She's not quite as aggressive to us but he gets her stirred up to the point that she'll soon mimic him and it becomes a vicious cycle. I'm not making much eye contact with them at all, and certainly not doing anything to antagonize them. I also believe it's much too early to attempt to establish my place as pack leader, other than not essentially ignoring them for now until they get used to their new surroundings. 

This is going to be a very long term bonding if ever - they were kennel dogs for the last 4 years and did not receive the proper amount of socialization with humans. My question is whether I should separate them or not. My instinct tells me I should so they do not reinforce each's bad behavior, and so they each begin to look to us as their provider and leader and source of socialization needs. Last night we sat in lawn chairs about 15 feet outside their fenced area (which is very large) not facing them, just talking casually and sipping wine. We have always done this but now we are not doing it inside the house but in proximity of them, and plan to do this each evening weather allowing so they can get used to us. They growled, barked, and stared holes through us often with bared fangs - but they eventually calmed down, then lied down but never taking their eyes off us. We made occasional brief eye contact with them but remained aloof and un-intimidated. 

They have not yet been spayed/neutered which we will have done in a week or two to see if they begin to trust us a little more. As it is we would not be able to get them in their kennels at all. I also know that even once they are fixed that's certainly not a solution and may not help at all, and that's not why we're doing it anyway - we simply do not have time for puppies and even if we did this is not a situation where it is in anyway wise. 

Not expecting a golden bullet answer here I realize there isn't one as individual dogs all have their own traits and habits and temperaments but hoping for some ideas ans if my separation idea is good or bad. We have no experience with gsd's, but have the feeling this is one of those situations where patience & consistency are paramount, but so it a plan! What's the plan? 

Thanks for any input.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Did you get them from a shelter or from other owners? It sounds like these dogs need FIRM handlers that really know what they're doing. I didn't read through the entire post, as I have no experience or advice with anything to do with aggression, but hopefully someone more helpful will come along.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Welcome, I myself cannot give you any advice but there are lots of people on here that I am sure can help you.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

My question is why you would adopt two agressive GDS's when you have no experience with Shepherds? What made you take them home?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think this is a situation where you may be way over your head. Contact a very good trainer/behaviorist. If you tell us where you live, I"m sure that someone on here can give you the name of a good contact.

This really isn't about GSD's as a breed. This is about adopting a pair of highly aggressive dogs. Finding a trainer with GSD experience can only help but you really need a trainer experienced with aggression.

I am wondering...

How do you feed them if you can't get near them without them behaving aggressively?
How did you get them to your house?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Wow, you've taken on quite a project! 

I have limited experience dealing with these types of dogs through rescue (honestly if a dog is truly people aggressive s/he never even makes it as far as rescue) but I can give you some ideas and strongly recommend finding a qualified behaviorist (who uses positive reinforcement combined with NILIF and really knows what they're doing) to help you. I wonder if you could contact Best Friends in Utah for resources? Best Friends Animal Society Home Page If you post your location people could help you find an appropriate trainer. 

1) I would absolutely separate them. These types of bonded pairs (where the bonding has negative affects on behavior) are almost always separated for their own good. I'm surprised they were adopted out together. If someone else (with proper reference, vet and home check and ideally experience rehabbing gsds) can take one of them then that will work better. IF they are separated but in close proximity I think they will always be trying to get to one another. When they are separated you can get a better idea as to their individual temperaments and what kind of progress you can expect to make with rehabbing them. 

2) While you are sitting out there with your cocktails I would start tossing delicious things into their area. I'm talking chopped up fresh chicken, steak, liver, etc. Do not make eye contact while you're doing this and do it randomly. Hopefully that will help them start to associate you with something really yummy. 

3) I don't know what your long term expectations are but these dogs may never tolerate more than basic contact from humans. Or they may come around very, very slowly but only accept you and your spouse. I took in a neglected and abused gsd when he was 4.5 and it was years before he was anything close to a normal dog...and even then i had to be very careful with him. However, he never showed any aggression towards me or my partner at the time, just strangers. 

4) Try to let go of your ideas about "dominance" and "pack leaders," especially if they are coming from Cesar Milan. Very, very few dogs (if any!) have a dominance agenda. More than likely the male is trying to protect himself and his mate from a perceived threat (you!). You will have to work very hard to earn both of their trust and the best way to do that is to make everything that comes from you super positive. And at the same time you have to keep yourselves safe!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

BowWowMeow said:


> Wow, you've taken on quite a project!
> 
> I have limited experience dealing with these types of dogs through rescue (honestly if a dog is truly people aggressive s/he never even makes it as far as rescue) but I can give you some ideas and strongly recommend finding a qualified behaviorist (who uses positive reinforcement combined with NILIF and really knows what they're doing) to help you. I wonder if you could contact Best Friends in Utah for resources? Best Friends Animal Society Home Page If you post your location people could help you find an appropriate trainer.
> 
> ...


Yes to all of this. 

Welcome and will be very interested in learning more about this situation!


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

Thanks for all the responses - especially you BowWow that's the kind of information I was looking for. 

I'm a little reluctant to give many details because I'm not wanting to start a firestorm over how I ended up with them, but in the interest of fairness i will tell most of it without naming the breeder (at least yet). 

We live in a rural area where crime has become pretty serious, mostly from the many meth heads that use abandoned houses in the kind of rural area we live to cook their dope. I caught the last one who'd hit us for ~$12,500 in tools from my shop, but there's 5 more to take his place. Being empty nesters we decided to get some sure enough large dogs as an intimidation/crime prevention measure. 

We finally found these dogs that seemed perfect for us, and I watched videos of them with the breeder and talked to her at least a dozen times on the phone and twice that via email. the condensed version is that either she did not represent the full degree of how vicious these dogs are, or else she simply couldn't foresee how they would react to the sudden uprooting. 

She had been looking for a home that could take them together as she said she tought they would do better together. In hindsight - and for more reasons than finding out how these dogs actually behave - but in hindsight I believe this woman has some serious issues (mentally) and should not be allowed to be a breeder. 

As to how we feed them, I keep them occupied at the other side of the fence while my wife fills their food and water bowls on the other side where I have built them a condo. I set it up that way deliberately thinking we wouldn't want to go into the fence with them for the first few days. Now looking like weeks or months. 

My wife flew out of DFW (we live in north Texas) 4 hours one way, met the breeder at the airport nearest them and flew back with the dogs that day. We live about 2 hours north of DFW airport in a very rural area, so when my wife had phoned me after landing about how aggressive they seemed compared to what had been described, I quickly built a kennel-sized flap gate that we could release the dogs into without them being able to get at us. It went exactly as planned (as planned at the last minute). 

The dogs were in their kennels for 12 hours! So we thought once they became acclimated they may do a little better within a day or two, but I don't think so now. They both seems as happy and content as can be. They have a whole continent compared to the 4 x 14 kennels where they spent most of their lives in which to run and play - and that's what they do most of the time now. They play! they seem genuinely happy and adapted already except that - they seem like they would be happier to have a human snack when we walk by. 

So that's most of the story. I didn't want to tell it because I have been a member on a dog forum before and have seen how these kinds of stories drag the hot-headed, judgmental, know-it-all members out who do nothing but focus on what happened versus how to proceed. If that sounds harsh sorry but pet owners are a group which while consisting of many salt of the earth human's, also seem to consist of some of the most arrogant and immature lot I have ever seen. My aim is not to draw them by telling this story but those of you who sincerely want to help should have a clearer picture of our predicament and perhaps offer something more because of the additional info. Or maybe not since it doesn't really change the dogs. 

I do appreciate all the advice even if I may not agree with it or may not be able to follow it for whatever reason. I am about as Alpha as a dog or human gets, but I'm also a deep-thinking Alpha and do not want to lessen my chances of developing the relationship with them that could work. Yes, I do realize it's possible they will never trust or respect me but I tend to have a great deal of confidence in myself and am going to proceed with this. Just collecting as much information as I can before I try to formulate a plan.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i think they're reacting because they dont know you. Put on some thick clothing and sit outside their fence back to them just tossing in treats. Then increase that to only tossing in treats when they're calm like sniffing you. no growling, no barking, toss a treat. They're never going to chill out if they dont have the chance to get to know who you are. only when totally confident they wont be nasty towards you would i suggest entering with them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really like Ruth's advice. The only thing I would add to that is to NOT throw them treats when they are being aggressive. Only do it when they have calmed down. My concern would be that you would reward them for being aggressive (at least that is how they would see it)

I'm sorry the breeder misrepresented the dogs. It's a really sad situation. I don't believe it is because they are in a new environment. I think it's how they were raised. 

If possible, I would get them to a vet somehow. Maybe sedate them and have the vet out to your house? To check for thyroid, and any medical conditions that could cause aggression.

They will continue to feed off each other as long as they can see the other so s it possible to separate them so that they can not see each other?


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Do you think they might be acting fearfully? Working in rescue I have come across many GSD's who have not been socialised properly and charge the fence and lunge and bark at anyone coming near. Although they look like they want to 'eat' the person, they are actually very frightened and just trying to keep people away.

I don't see that a dog trying to be 'dominant' would carry on like that when there was no threat and especially when they are not on their home territory (so not being protective).

The way I got round some of the very aggressive shepherds we had in was to spend a long time just sitting really quietly by the fence in a submissive as possible position (sometimes curled up) so as not to appear a threat. Every now and then I would throw some high valued treats in. Eventually every one of those dogs would start to calm down and I managed to make friends with all of them. Although for some I was the only person who could go near them, and that might be the case with your guys as they have had many years of presumably behaving like this around strange people.


Good luck with them, maybe you could post some video of them so people could get a better idea of their behaviour? Some frightened dogs are very very good at making it look like they aren't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with separating them. It is sad to do so because they are used to each other and play with each other, but they need to become reliant on you and your wife so until that happens, they should be in separated little continents. 

I think that it may help to crate the dogs part of the day. At least get them in the crate to feed them while you take care of cleaning their kennels. You need to be the provider of all that is good, and that includes freedom. But only do this if you can devise a safe method of transfer.

I think you need to go slow with them. Stay calm, consistant, and firm. Start with tossing the good stuff in as they have mentioned, but after they seem to understand that goodies are coming, start looking at them when you toss the goodies -- not staring, just looking and waiting for them to be calm before tossing. Then ask for a sit or a down. Use hand motions and voice commands. Make them work for it. 

You will need a LOT of patience to manage this task. I think that it would come about quicker if you had just one or the other of them. That is a decision that only you can make, as aggressive as they are, there are not many options for them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree they are probably fearful, but fearful dogs will still attack and bite. 
You say you just got them, within days, or a week? 
I'd let them decompress, get use to their surrroundings and make your appearances as pleasant and positive as possible. 
I also agree with separating them, especially if they are both intact. 
Once they've gotten use to you and your wife, I think they'll come around. 
Speak quietly to them, or go sit by the kennel and read out loud, that will help them to see you aren't a threat to them. 
Hopefully you can get with a highly recommended behaviorist(even if it is phone consult) to give you help with these two.
Please keep us updated, it will be interesting to follow along with their progress(I have faith that they will come around!)


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> I am about as Alpha as a dog or human gets,


I think I understand what you're saying, but please understand that the idea of "alphas" has been completely debunked within the wolf and respected dog behaviorist community. Those who STILL advocate this idea aren't people that you want to model yourself after. 

Dogs need structure. They thrive when there are clear and fair rules. Boundaries are necessary, and consistency is an absolute must. So when you say that you're a deep thinker, let's move in that direction. Alpha implies a top-down enforcement (with emphasis on the word "force" in the middle of that) of rules. 

In this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/145834-when-muzzle-necessary.html I spoke about the use of medicine as one more tool to assist us in training dogs. (I won't repeat everything I said there). I'm not someone that is big on pushing drugs on dogs (or people for that matter). I'm a pragmatist. I believe that we look at the dog in front of us and we look at ALL of the options in front of us and we select those tools that best work for this particular dog to resolve this particular issue (or train that particular behavior). After speaking with numerous trainers and behaviorists, I've just come to realize that pharmaceuticals can be helpful in dealing especially with aggression and that we shouldn't wait. 

Most respected dog behaviorists believe that the natural state of dogs is to be peace-seeking. They naturally live in packs and intermingle freely. I believe that aggressive dogs aren't particularly happy dogs; they feel stressed often (if not constantly). If, in fact, the breeder wasn't all there mentally and behaved erratically, they may have felt little or no control over their environment. It may be that they're temperamentally (genetically) weak-nerved. It may be that they weren't socialized at all. It may be all three or something else entirely. Regardless, of how they got here, they're here. Interactions with humans -- which is a mandatory part of their lives as domestic dogs -- freaks them out. That stress creates more cortisol, which in turn makes them feel more stressed. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. 

If we can alter that (the actual physical reaction) even somewhat, it's a kindness to them AND it helps us train them, which helps them feel more in control of the environment, which decreases their stress level. The cycle, instead of escalating, can start to diminish. 

Thyroid panels for aggression have been discussed at length all over the internet. I've talked to A LOT of trainers and vets about them. It's worth running the thyroid, of course, but few professionals that I've met have had dogs that the thyroid (even with Jean Dodd's input) made a big difference. Sometimes it does. It's definitely worth doing; especially if these are siblings, there could be genetic hypothyroidism at work. But while you're at the vet's office getting the thyroid panel done, I would ask about behavioral meds as well.

As much as possible, I would ask the vet to perform a full exam (the dogs will have to be muzzled). These dogs may have severe orthopedic issues that cause pain or other issues (urinary tract infections and GI issues can be very painful as well) that are causing them to self-protect. I can't imagine that would cause them to be so aggressive, in and of itself, but could be a contributing factor. 

AND, I would follow Ruth's excellent advice. 

ETA: One more thought: the excellent book: _Chill Out Fido_ by Nan Arthur discusses some other influences that could cause arousal in dogs. It's too early for you do to the exercises in it. But you may want to pick it up and take a look at it. 

Actually, another thought, if you aren't already, I would put these dogs on fish oil (with vitamin E), which is good for the brain, especially the prefrontal cortex, where decision-making is done. Ask your vet for info.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree with the point about timing the yummy food tosses. Wait until they are calm and then do it. There are lots of good books out there for working with aggressive dogs. Check out dogwise.com for a good selection. 

Also, per the excellent advice above, please rethink the alpha stuff. I think most people would characterize me as having a very alpha personality but I don't have a dominance agenda with my dogs. When I adopted my first gsd I thought that was really important but now I see that it's counterproductive, especially when dealing with dogs that have major issues. 

Finally, if you had walked by my yard when Basu was out you would have sworn he was going to tear your face off. In fact, a friend of mine used him in a movie because he looked so vicious. Other people apparently avoided walking past our house b/c he was so scary. The truth was that he was fearful from being under-socialized and mistreated and he had some territorial aggression too. 

Keep asking questions and keep an open mind.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

My _perception_ of what alpha means, is probably not as accurate as it is within a community such as this, so I won't try to hang on to that bone. My first attempt at humor haha. But seriously I thought alpha in this context simply meant "leader". I have never associated alpha exclusively with dominance. Although I probably do get the mixed up. For instance when I said the female "dominates" the male in this pair, maybe I should have put more thought into it but it's clear to anyone, layman or professor of the topic that she most certainly does both. 

I wonder if it could be one of those instances where something which says essentially the same thing, has been re-named or vaguely re-written due to any number of outside influences? I guess that's going too off topic just sort of thinking out loud. 

I wasn't expecting such a flood of replies with so much fantastic advice, I must say it's a pleasant surprise. Already I have much to digest and consider, but I'll share this ne short story with you all that just took place. Part of their fenced in area extends past the back of our house. I was standing at the back door talking with my wife and about to walk back to my shop which means I pass by them within a few feet. This is when they always raise their most fervent protests. Before I started my journey an idea hit me and I shared it with my wife. 

I'd noticed they had stopped barking when we were discussing this evening's plans and ignoring them. I said to her that she should remain at the back door and as I approached the shop, and the second they started barking and snarling I would stop and turn and we would continue to converse - not paying them any attention. They started almost immediately as began my walk and took another step, turned, and we started talking again. They stopped barking within a second or two and so we discussed in matter of fact tones how this was a major progression. As I talked to her shielding my face from the setting sun, she was describing to me what they were doing. She said they were beginning to wag their tails! So we talked another 30 seconds and I slowly turned again never making eye contact and they began to bark again. I stopped, turned to my wife, and we began talking again. this time they stopped barking almost before the first word was out of my mouth, and my wife said to me "They are lying down and looking at you and wagging their tails." Well I could harldy believe it so I turned and glanced at them quickly, lying there 10' away and sure enough they were lying down looking at me with wagging tails. 

So I said to my wife, "I'm going to keep talking to you and slowly back toward the fence as I talk" and I got to within a foot or two of the fence where they were lying, and they never said a peep. My wife said "Well I swear they are smiling now too. Tails still wagging." So I finished talking to her and spun and walked to the shop. They did not bark at me again. I know they will when I go back out but still I think that was a major breakthrough. I guess they perceived that as long as my wife and I were talking to each other and not paying them any attention that they were under no threat?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you need a couple of good books, that clearly describe dog behavior and body language as well as some good leadership techniques. Patricia McConnel might be a good one to go for.

I think that on of the books talks about ignoring the dog for three days (maybe not McConnel, not sure, maybe the book called the dog whisperer). Basically, you attend to the dogs needs, but completely ignore the dog, then after three days, the dog will join up with you -- it is definitely more involved than that, but it is positive -- no harsh punishments, etc. But the dog joins up with you as the leader, not the other way around. 

I think a lot of the time, the biggest mistake people make around unknown dogs is to pay attention to them. My sister, who has no pets, pets seem to gravitate to her wherever she goes because she totally does not make any overtures toward them. They choose to trust her without her trying at all. 

But any of this really requires the dogs to be in need of attention. These kennel dogs have lived for so long with so little attention, that just having the other dog in there is enough for them. They will have no incentive to join up with you as the leader, if they have their buddy with them all the time. 

Even separating their kennels should make a difference. 

Just thinking out loud here.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I think you are exactly right! 

What you may not realize is that you've stumbled upon a sophisticated training technique. You're moving to where the dog is what we call "sub-threshold" (below the level or "threshold" where they would react to you), waiting for them to become comfortable with you, then -- and only then -- moving closer. You've removed other variables (eye contact, speaking to the dog, additional movement) and just concentrated on ONE variable -- proximity to the dogs. 

This is something that a lot of professional trainers have a hard time understanding, but you've intuited it. That's phenomenal. As you continue to work them, keep in mind that as you change (or add) variables, we'll need to back up and start all over -- way back where they're sub-threshhold. It's kind of like someone who is afraid of crawly things. We can introduce them to bugs, starting with lady bugs and working up to big beetles, until they're comfortable with those. But when we want to introduce them to spiders, we're not going to bring out a big hairy tarantula. We're going to bring out a tiny spider and start all over until we eventually get to the biggest hairiest spider we can find. Changing variables changes the game, especially with dogs that don't generalize well under the best of conditions. 

(A puppy doesn't understand that "sit" in the kitchen means "sit" in the living room; and he certainly doesn't understand that it means "sit" at the park. We have to train all of these. It takes about 15-20 different places -- or different variables -- before a dog generalizes a new skill) 

What I would love for you to do is separate the dogs and do the same thing. This way, you'll be able to desensitize each at his/her own rate. It may be that the male is easier to desensitize but responds to the female's reactions, or visa versa. It's very hard to train two dogs at the same time, especially when it comes to aggression issues (I'd say completely impossible, but there may be a very gifted trainer out there who can do it). 

What I'd also love for you to do is when you approach and the dog remains calm is toss a treat into the kennel over your shoulder. Your aim will have to be pretty good, since you're not looking at the kennel, but you have a pretty big area to work with. You want to use HIGH value treats. Where I live, we have Costco, and they sell pre-made meatballs, steak, roasted chicken breast, all beef hot dogs, that I use for especially challenging training. I presume you can find something similar at Sam's Club or a similar store near you, if you don't have Costco nearby. I also like to mix up my treats (I freeze the extras so I always have some on hand). This way, my dogs never know what to expect. Steak is nice, but steak day after day isn't nearly as great as a varied menu. The idea is that we want your dogs to start to HOPE that you approach them... that they wait around, wondering when you'll show up, because you're the guy with the great loot, and wondering what they'll be fed is as wonderful as being fed good stuff to begin with. 

Also, for now, I would just work with you approaching. Let them get comfortable with you before you switch roles with your wife. It's human nature to want to want to get everyone involved, but as one of my friends (who is a trainer) likes to say, "Slow is Fast." If we make a lot of progress but switch too fast, then we've set ourselves back and the dogs may not feel like they can trust you. Better to move slowly. Let them know they can REALLY trust you. Then start all over with your wife and let her build up trust with them. 

One thing at a time. 

Ultimately, dogs co-evolved with humans. It's deep in their genes to work with humans. It can be VERY hard to get down to that level where they remember on a genetic level that humans are their partners. Sometimes, unfortunately, we can't. But it seems like these two have it in them. That's excellent news. We just need to take it slow.

And, what are their names? I'd prefer to refer to them by their names rather than "the male" and "the female." :hug:


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Sue has a point about learning dog "language." A swishing tail and a grimacing dog could look like a wagging tail and a grinning dog if you're not familiar with dog body language (but swishing and grimacing are signs that the dog is very stressed and could be about to attack). If the dogs were lying down and seemed calm, they probably were. But given that these two are aggressive, it's better to be well informed. 

I really like these two books. You can buy either or both. Amazon and Dogwise have both and Dogwise has a shopworn copy of Aloff's that's shopworn on clearance, which is a great deal. 

*CANINE BODY LANGUAGE - A PHOTOGRAPHIC GUIDE*
by Brenda Aloff

*CANINE BEHAVIOR - A PHOTO ILLUSTRATED HANDBOOK*
Barbara Handelman 


Since I'm mentioning Aloff, this is a good book: 

*AGGRESSION IN DOGS - PRACTICAL MANAGEMENT, PREVENTION & BEHAVIOUR MODIFICATION*
Brenda Aloff 


I'm not a big fan of ignoring dogs. These two seem to be suffering from a lack of quality human interaction. Personally, I wouldn't propound ignoring dogs with that sort of history. They're responding positively to you right now. Do we really want for you to be yet another human that disappoints them? I guess I'm just showing my bias.  But I prefer to reach out to dogs that are severely struggling. There IS time to _negatively_ _punish _unwanted behavior (to take away something he likes if he does something unwanted). I do believe that (and I use that technique when appropriate). But if the dog has no idea what you want to begin with? Well, I wouldn't. It's like being arrested and tossed in jail without being told what the charges are. Maybe it will make you more submissive. But just as likely, it will make you as mad as heck... And it's not fair. As we discussed before, leadership is about being fair. 


Anyhow, IMHO.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you've gotten some wonderful advice, and I commend you for taking on these two,,I'm thinking I'd be mighty peeved and not sure I would want to tackle this. However it sounds like your making PROGRESS! 

One thing I wanted to mention, I know your planning on neutering/spaying, I would try to get that done asap, before an unwanted pregnancy happens(

I'm kind of on the fence with separating them right now, I might have missed how long you've had them??? I agree with letting them decompress, get more comfortable with their surroundings, tho I also agree that working them separately would probably be more helpful, I just don't think I'd separate them right at this moment...

Good luck , sounds like a project and I'm sure you'll learn alot,,please keep us [email protected]


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have not taken on exactly the same situation, but when I have been around adopted kennel dogs who were slow to bond, we did a lot of quiet sitting nearby. Get a good book.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Wow, I think you have received some great advice. I have none but wanted to welcome you and wish you luck. It sounds like you are on the right path. I am looking forward to hearing of your progress!


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## 48496 (Sep 1, 2010)

I have zero advice since I've never been in your shoes and I'm not the doggy expert. I just wanted to say welcome and I can't wait to hear about your progress. I can't wait to see pictures either!


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't have much time right now but I have something big to share - last night my wife & I chatted it up beside the fence for quite a while. They quit barking within just a few seconds after we sat down beside the fence. Within a few minutes they both lied down and drifted in and out sort of cat-napped I guess. 

As we were walking past them I decided I thought it was time to enter the gate, and I did. The male growled a little but the female walked up to my extended arm with palm down, limp fingers, and sniffed. I looked her in the eye and talked to her and pet her head. She sat down on her haunches and seemed a little nervous but submissive. I stopped petting her after about 20 seconds and just stood there motionless. She took another step forward and wagged her tail with her mouth open and tongue hanging out and her whole posture changed to a sudden relaxed one and she was asking for more petting. I did so for about 30 seconds and turned and left. The male was another story. He never barked but he never approached either. He's going to be a tuff nut to crack but I now believe he can be eventually, especially when I put him in a separate fence. 



3K9Mom said:


> And, what are their names? I'd prefer to refer to them by their names rather than "the male" and "the female." :hug:


I know this must be maddening the way I am doing this withholding some info, but I do have a reason and it is not anything underhanded. I don't like referring to them this way either but for now I should. 




littlebit722 said:


> . . . I can't wait to see pictures either!


I will at least do that. I don't believe a person can search for pictures they do not have themselves - yet. 

Her. . . 









Him . . .









I realize there is still a long way to go but this is a better start than I could have foresaw. 







.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's amazing! I can't wait to open this thread and continue to read about your journey.  

As far as names go, you could make up names to use on here. Or just rename them completely.  Dogs will adjust to new names.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

They are both good looking dogs.

Are you going to change their names or keep the same names?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Your post was quiker and better Jax08


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

Wowza! What a situation you have. Kudos to you and your wife for taking on this Herculean task. You're getting good advice here, and I agree you'll probably need some help in the form of a trainer/behaviorist. And lots more wine for the both of you. Oh, and what good looking problem children you have! I, too, am eager to hear more about the progress, because I have no doubt that's what it's going to be -- given time, patience and respect.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Your post was quiker and better Jax08


When I wrote quiker I did mean quicker.

For some reason I cant seem to spell anything right when I'm trying to talk to Jax08, I swear I took 8 English classes in high school, I'm better than this! :blush:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> When I wrote quiker I did mean quicker.
> 
> For some reason I cant seem to spell anything right when I'm trying to talk to Jax08, I swear I took 8 English classes in high school, I'm better than this! :blush:


make ya nervous, huh? oke: LOL


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> make ya nervous, huh? oke: LOL


Hahaha, I guess you do! I dont want to slip up, you might call me out on it! :wild:


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> When I wrote quiker I did mean quicker.
> 
> For some reason I cant seem to spell anything right when I'm trying to talk to Jax08, I swear I took 8 English classes in high school, I'm better than this! :blush:


 
lol its that brain on drugs craigslist ad that messed everyone up. i took all my english classes in high school as well and that ad still have me messed up!!! hehe. 

as far as the dogs, they're both good looking dogs. you're making progress so keep up the good work.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Congrats on going into their space and the reaction you received. I'm glad you took that step, it was probably the hardest!
I think if the male sees how gentle you are with the girl, he won't be so hard to "crack". He looks like he may be working lines(sable) and she is from showlines? I hope you will keep us updated.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

They are beautiful dogs! Congrats on being able to pet her, you have already come a long way but you still have a long road.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

That's great! Looks like you have 2 beautiful dogs there. I hope you'll stick around and continue the story.

Hey, can we make up names? How about the moons of Jupiter: Io for the boy and Europa for the girl.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to hear about the progress. I remember a situation that happened with the rescue I volunteered with in WI. There was a dog who was kept in a chicken coop all of his life. He was never handled, his coop was never cleaned and the people gave him his food by hoisting a bucket in and out every day. Then one day they decided they didn't want him anymore. So they called animal control and they came out and the dog was so "aggressive" that they refused to take him. So some volunteers from the rescue drove out there to assess the dog. He went nuts as they approached, barking and jumping and carrying on. His long coat was matted with crap (literally) and he looked horrible. 

My friend (one of the volunteers) decided to try giving him a treat. He looked away and stuck his hand over the coop fence and the dog bit him immediately...because he didn't know how to take a treat. After eating the treat he started licking my friend's hand. So the volunteers got him out of the coop, slipped a lead over his neck and loaded this incredibly stinky and completed untrained and unsocialized HUGE gsd into the van and off they went! He was definitely a project but after being brought into the house of his foster home and learning the ropes he turned into a really nice dog. He moved to a farm with lots of rescue animals (including a pig with his own house) and lived happily ever after. 

So hopefully your story with these two will end like that! 

Is your plan to bring them in the house soon? Are you giving them yummy food yet? 

Also, just an fyi: patting a dog on the head is not a great idea, especially for a shy or undersocialized dog. It is much better to pet them under the chin.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> I don't have much time right now but I have something big to share - last night my wife & I chatted it up beside the fence for quite a while. They quit barking within just a few seconds after we sat down beside the fence. Within a few minutes they both lied down and drifted in and out sort of cat-napped I guess.
> 
> As we were walking past them I decided I thought it was time to enter the gate, and I did. The male growled a little but the female walked up to my extended arm with palm down, limp fingers, and sniffed. I looked her in the eye and talked to her and pet her head. She sat down on her haunches and seemed a little nervous but submissive. I stopped petting her after about 20 seconds and just stood there motionless. She took another step forward and wagged her tail with her mouth open and tongue hanging out and her whole posture changed to a sudden relaxed one and she was asking for more petting. I did so for about 30 seconds and turned and left. The male was another story. He never barked but he never approached either. He's going to be a tuff nut to crack but I now believe he can be eventually, especially when I put him in a separate fence.
> 
> ...


 
"She" looks like a doll! Very pretty!


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

codmaster said:


> "She" looks like a doll! Very pretty!


Thank you cod. I'm going to just go ahead and give their names and what happens, happens. These are not German Shepherds per se, they are Shiloh Shepherds. Nor are they both 7 years old. "She" just celebrated her 6th birthday on Halloween and her name is Cleo - short for _Cleopatra of Strauss_. 

He is 5 and his name is Mastro, short for _Master of Zion_. I apologize for the deception - I truly do. It's just that the Shiloh bunch seem to be obsessive about keeping track of "their" dogs and I have little doubt the former pack leader will be searching from time to time and I wanted to avoid any further bizarre experiences with her. But I also don't like to live feeling like I am hiding from any situation or from anyone for that matter. I have done nothing wrong and so let the cards fall where they may. 

It's easy enough for anyone to now discover where these dogs came from and from whom I got them. If she ever runs across this thread and a big stink is made I would ask the moderators to just deep six the thread if need be. I moderate a woodworking forum myself with almost the same number of members as this fine forum so I know firsthand how thankless the job is sometimes. So don't worry you'll get no resistance from me should that ever occur. 

I don't want to belabor it but I do want to reiterate that I feel terrible for coming onto this forum in this manner and I ask for forgiveness for my deception; my post didn't start out with that spirit in my heart, and I should have nipped it in the bud somehow it just kind of got out of hand. I should have anticipated there would be questions about their names and where they came from etc. but in my excitement (and need for quick answers) I posted sort of thoughtlessly. Oh my how the mighty do fall! Just another reason I want to move on and I am no better than her when it all comes down to it. My log, her splinter. 

What I would like to ask is if there is a name for the striping that Mastro has in his coat? It's even more beautiful in person - the camera can't quite catch the intensity of it. 




















Jax, I had no idea we could rename an old dog and have them respond to it eventually. I would look into that but really I don't have a problem with their names. I actually like them. One final tidbit for tonight - my wife Terry gained a huge piece of ground with Mastro today. Mastro hasn't allowed either of us to pet him yet but stays within a foot or two of her at all times when she is in the fence. Cleo does not allow Mastro to come right up to her though. I think Mastro would have already allowed Terry to pet him, but Cleo runs him off at the last second. 

Until this afternoon he wouldn't come within 50' of me but the last time I was in with them he circled me like a shark circling its prey. 
In fact those were my wife's words. Mastro was running the perimeter and when he would come to where I was standing just inside the fence he would speed up to almost a full run, turn his head away and circle around me like a barrel racer does a barrel, then speed off. I never made a move the several times he did this. Not because I was frightened as I wasn't, I instinctively knew what he was doing; he was testing me to see how I would react. Fearfully? Aggressively? Submissively? Would I ask him to allow me ot pet him? He may not have been using the same words or logic but his instinct was asking mine what it would do. I remained calm while he did this repeatedly and I talked to him sometimes as he spun around me but I never attempted to pet him nor did I make any sudden moves. 

Believe me, this breed does seem to be on the very high end of canine intelligence. What I took for fear was much more than that. Sure he was fearful of his new surroundings but in hindsight he got over quicker than we realized and began to manipulate our perception of that. I don't have time to write a book yet lol but there's much more to Mastro than what at first seems. I think the best thing that could happen to him now is for him to be released from the domineering (sorry guys that's exactly what Cleo exerts over Mastro . . . dominance! "Alpha" whatever you want to call it, it's domination pure and simple) control that she has over him. I think it will release the real Mastro that has never been allowed to fully develop. I believe he has even more potential than Cleo who I must say is a pure joy already. 

Well I have typed much longer than I had planned and I have destroyed another promised deadline but it's family and they know me by now, by golly and they are loving thses dogs every bit as much. 

Cheers. Hope my poor judgement hasn't gotten me banned next time I return. Hey, where's the icon for Mia Culpa? 





.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mastro is a sable, he'll change color light/dark with the seasons. I noticed his coloring on the first pic.
Well, TB is not on this board and from what I know, doesn't lurk either. I think you are safe in sharing your story here.
Males tend to be goofier in character than the females, so he will probably start showing his comical fun loving side when he trusts you. I think he is just afraid. And for what its worth, Shilohs aren't ones I would consider to be "watchdogs". They are pretty laid back compared to GSD's, though the "bad guys" don't know that!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I think we all get the situation you are/were in with the previous owner and what you were trying to avoid. Rest assured no one thinks less of you. I personally think you are breath of fresh air!

You and Terry are making wonderful progress!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's sounds as if Cleo is the queen and is dominating Mastro. I would separate them immediately. It's so wonderful to hear that they are coming around and so much quicker than anyone thought. Keep up the great job!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Consider yourself "forgiven"! (Not necessary at all!)

We all thank you for taking on an extremely difficult task with your two dogs. Sounds like a tough job (but well worth it when you succeed!)


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## 48496 (Sep 1, 2010)

Thanks for the pictures. They're gorgeous dogs. Congrats on the progress too.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

They're both gorgeous dogs and it sounds like things are going really well. 

So when are they moving into the house? This isn't a breed that likes to live outside. They love to be with their pack...


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

No need for forgiveness! I love this last picture of him, he is so handsome. Ou are doing a wonderful thing for these dogs, keep it up.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Your dogs are bee-u-tee-ful!!! I am so glad that you are making progress. It sounds like these two are in a wonderful home and they will soon realize how lucky they are!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We have taken in quite a few dogs over the years with this type of attitude towards us (when they first arrived). As long as they seemed reasonably healthy we went with the NILF system, too. We will walk up to the cage with a bowl of food and let the dog smell it and walk away. Then return in a bit with the same bowl, if the dog acts at all aggressive, growls, whatever, we turn around and leave and try again the next day. (The dog must have water and shelter, of course). When we try again the next day, same thing. When they let us approach the cage without showing aggression we walk up and give them a bit of the food tossed through the cage,next we give some sort of command that we are pretty sure they know, usually sit. We give them a command and if they do it they get a bit of the food (through the cage), if not, oh well, we walk away and try again later. Maybe in an hour, maybe the next day, it all depends on the level of aggression. Most dogs will give you a tail wag by the 3rd or 4th day. We never get angry with them, we may give the Uh-uh sound when they get nasty just before we walk away, but they do not get punished, we are very matter of fact and usually keep up calm conversation. Since my husband and I both do this, we try to read the dog and see if they prefer male/female and will work accordingly. We have had 2 Boerbels in the last year that required this method, the only 2 Boerbels we've dealt in recent years and they were not related, very odd.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Mastro is a smooth coat shiloh with sable coloring. thats about it. Normally in shilohs we see the plushies 9(long coats). No forgiveness necessary. They're beautiful dogs. I can tell you from personal experience they're (shilohs) not considered good guard dogs. They do have the desire to protect their family if necessary though. Generally they're a pretty mellow and relaxed breed so i'm sure your set there will calm down considerably once they've adjusted and been seperated. spend one on one time with each of them so they can bond. Looking forward to more pictures! i'll look into my files and see if i can copy my shiloh shepherd info on her for you.


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

I'm enjoying your adventure. Thank you. Here's a picture of my rescue girl that we had to let go just over a month ago. She was about 14 and suffered from DM. When I first saw her on the rescue website, I believe she was described as a Shiloh or King shepherd because she was a "big boned" girl. She has that same striping you mentioned. You can see it a little in the photo, and as you said, it's really much more pronounced and prettier in person. She had a super plush, but not long, coat. It was crazy dense and with those strips (not stripes), it looked freshly brushed at all times. People would comment on how I must have just brushed her. What's funny about that coat, though, is that the strips or whatever you want to call them, weren't permanent until she got much older. Maybe 12 or so. I got her when she was about 7. Also, of all my GSDs she was the sweetest and kindest who never knew a stranger. She would bark alerts, however, so she did her job. Your dogs are lovely.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

Thank you all for letting me into your pack. 

Last night it was raining - well it had been raining all afternoon - it doesn't bother Cleo at all. Whenever I would go to and from the shop she'd casually walk out to the fence to see if she was going to get a treat or get some lovin. She never barks at me any more except in the morning when I come out for the first time. Once she see's it me then she stops and the tail wagging starts. We're becoming fast friends and she already trusts me enough that she's never "on guard" around me any longer.

But back to last night and the rain and Mastro. He hates it. I had set up their kennels for them beside their condo in case they didn't like the new surroundings they could get inside their familiar air travel kennel. Cleo likes her half of the condo and until the rain came Mastro was pretty much always on maneuvers. No wonder his food intake requirement is twice as what Cleo requires. He's on the go all the time. But when the t-storms rolled in yesterday afternoon Mastro was nowhere to bee seen. 

I had removed the doors from the kennels so they wouldn't be in their way and had set them facing the house so a blowing rain couldn't get to them so in order to see if he was inside I had to approach the kennel up close and personal. This would mean that he could feel cornered and threatened. So as I moved in between the house and opening of the kennel, I started calling his name name and saying good boy mastro - it's okay - it's okay - and stuck my head down just enough to see him. He was inside with the most pitiful look you've ever seen. He wasn't nervous or anxious at all but he just looked like 9 miles of bad road compared to his normal self. 

I sat down slowly and talked to him for a while. I tossed a piece of chicken inside and he didn't even look at it. Cleo removed the offensive ***** of protein for him. She didn't want to eat it of course she was just cleaning out his kennel haha. So I just sat there for a few minutes and talked to him. He finally put his head back down on his front legs and ignored me. I didn't try to pet him because I think he may have bitten me still at this point. maybe not but I wasn't taking any chances on messing up the ground we've made with each other. 

JFTR I have not had any dealings with TB other than exchanging a post or two with her on that forum when I was first in search of a dog. I got these from one of her certified breeders. 


Annette what is the acronym NILF?

Re: them being guard dogs, we knew from having read about Shiloh's they were not going to be as aggressive as GSD's (which is why we were so taken off guard when they appeared to be extremely so at first) but we were okay with that. I doubt we'll ever let them near our twin grand boys though because the breeder said that would not be a good idea. She had warned us that Cleo does not trust children from an earlier incident in her life when a young boy threw a stick at her and hit her. And as for Mastro, the very day before my wife flew up to get them, Mastro bit a man who had tried to pet him through the fence. I didn't have a problem with it because I knew the dogs were kennel dogs and deprived of the kind of contact they should have been given. I just knew going in they weren't going to be "family dogs" per se at least not for a long time. They would bond with Terry and I and that would be about it. 

So while Shiloh's are generally less aggressive compared to GSD's, these particular Shiloh's have their issues. I believe once they spend the kind of time with us that we give them everyday that will change, but as long as our boys are in the toddler stages like they are there's no way we will allow them near the dogs. I sorta got off track there but my point is I think they'll be great guard dogs - just what we need once they trust us implicitly. 

Thanks for all the advice and support. This has turned out to be one of the best forums I've joined of any kind. I'm not a big "joiner" but over the years I've tried a number of forums for certain things hobbies/business/research etc. and honestly this is one of the friendliest and most informative of which I have had the pleasure to become a member.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

NILIF is Nothing in Life is Free~ here is a good link explaining it:
Nothing in Life is Free

I agree with bringing them inside the home, especially if Mastro is not a fan of rain! I'd get them set up inside, I bet you'll see a turnaround quickly.
Kennel dogs act very different than dogs that are housedogs. But having toddlers in the home trumps that idea? Too bad.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Jupiter's Twins said:


> .....I just knew going in they weren't going to be "family dogs" per se at least not for a long time. They would bond with Terry and I and that would be about it.....
> 
> these particular Shiloh's have their issues. I believe once they spend the kind of time with us that we give them everyday that will change, but as long as our boys are in the toddler stages like they are there's no way we will allow them near the dogs.


You sound extremely moderate and sensible about rehabilitating this pair. Given their history, your concern about your grandsons may be legitimate. Please bear in mind that you can easily keep boys and dogs separate in the house if you wish. Your dogs will likely be very easy to crate train and it's a great safety measure for a lot of situations. As your bond is forged, it will be natural to bring them into the house and when your family visits, the dogs can rest comfortably in their crates. During longer visits, they can spend some time in their "condos" but I would strongly hesitate to send them back outside during visits, because it might set up an association of visitors and isolation. Crates, on the other hand, can provide the comfort of being near their people without the danger of unwanted interactions.

Please keep posting-your dogs sound like artwork in progress.

MJ


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think your doing a great job and no need to apologize for ANYTHING. Most likely TB wouldn't much give a hoot that you have them, tho she may say otherwise for public consumption..There have been a few shilohs posted around in need of rescue, and I've never seen her step up to the plate

Anyhooooo, keep doing what your doing, it sounds like it's working well. And I agree I don't think I'd let them around kids, it certainly doesn't sound like they've had the 'best' of upbringings, unsocialized and such, but you are making progress

And I also think you'll find, in ALOT of households, girlz 'rule' so it doesn't surprise me that Cleo is the big kahuna with Maestro. 

Definately keep us updated, I am enjoying reading your progress and updates


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> . . . . Maestro.


You just renamed our dog! I liked Mastro but it is so odd people are always asking about it. But everyone knows what a maestro is, and the pronunciation is so close he'll never notice. Maestro it is . . . thank you! :thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

hey your welcome, glad my misspelling helped you out)) He looks like a Maestro anyway ))


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

Mary Jane said:


> Y . . . As your bond is forged, it will be natural to bring them into the house and when your family visits, the dogs can rest comfortably in their crates. During longer visits, they can spend some time in their "condos" but I would strongly hesitate to send them back outside during visits, because it might set up an association of visitors and isolation. Crates, on the other hand, can provide the comfort of being near their people without the danger of unwanted interactions.
> 
> MJ


This is good advice - and maybe you can help us at this crossroads I see ourselves approaching fast. there's been a lot of advice from different members that to me seem contradictory but most of it isn't, it's just probably not appearing in a flow chart in my mind as it almost certainly does to you more experienced rescuers. 

Winter is fast approaching and we are not ready to have them in the house. For one, the previous owner advised not to leave Maestro (newly renamed) in the house alone because he would most likely destroy certain things like furniture etc. and also would probably water the carpet. For this problem I happen to have a handy solution. We are doing some major renovation, and I have one end of the house at the stage where I've just finished putting up the OSB on the walls and ceilings (I'm no fan of sheetrock) so the floors are not yet carpeted and the wall treatments have not yet been installed. So there's that solution. But . . . 

I don't know how to go about introducing these dogs into our home renovation or not. I have never had animals in the home, I've never liked that idea and have always rejected it. But with these two I can't wait to have them living comfortably in our/their home. But how do i get there? Do I let them in for the night and then out for the day weather permitting? that's the way both my wife and I would like for it to be. Sleeping in the house at night and out for the day. Is that possible or once they become inside dogs is it cruel to put them out for the day? The whole crate time idea seems worse to me but I realize that's prbably not so or not so many experienced trainers would advise it. 

I just need some kind of plan as I said in my first post and I still don't feel like I have one. So far we've been winging it and using what we believe is just common sense, but now we're entering what seems like a minefield with this transition into the house. I know I need experienced guidance with this whether it be a book or whatever. Any bullets/outline on how to begin?




.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is a beauty in a good outdoor kennel. I prefer with large powerful dogs to have that kennel surrounded by an outter fence. And make sure that the dog cannot dig under or climb over. 

When the grand kids come over, dogs go in thier kennels. This does not hurt them and in this case it is much more important not to subject the child to injury. The dogs were not raised around children. Short supervised interaction with one dog at a time and then the dog is put in its favorite place to be, its kennel.

Yes, GSDs love to be with their people. This is like a GSD, but it has also been raised in a kennel environment. It was probably quite satisfied seeing its owner for as long as it took for her to scoop poop and lay down food. For these dogs to get a few hours here and a few hours there, they will do marvelously on that for now. 

There is little difference from a new dog sleeping outside in a kennel or inside in a crate. 

The outside kennel is an improvement from an inside crate if there are no people present, like the people are at work. 

What matters is when the people are home, where are the dogs, and how much interaction will they get from the people. 

For now, everyone is going slow and making progress. That is awesome. Down the line, if these people can come home, let the dogs in, spend the evening with the dogs, and then put them outside for the night, that would be ok too. If they end up only out when the family is out, that is fine too, so long as the kennels are escape proof. 

It sounds like you are doing really good with these dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

These two were kenneled outside before you got them right? And your in Texas, where it doesn't get tooooo cold? I think "in" at nite (if you can get to that point) and out during the day would be perfectly fine for them since they are quite used to being outside. 

Since your having such good progress with Cleo, do you think you can introduce her to the house soon? I'd obviously leave a leash on her and let her scope the place out (or atleast the areas she will allowed into)...With Maestro, well I'm thinking you need to work on him more, and hopefully he will become as comfortable with you as Cleo is getting. 

I do agree, I don't think I'd be testing the waters with leaving them loose in the house, (major destruction on your renovation possibly 

I know you said they have access to their crates outside (like doghouses?) Maybe you can build them a small shed type building outside, heat , running water? LOL just kidding on the last part 

I think right now, even tho you don't have a plan, winging it with the way you've been going seems to be working, and just taking it day by day and going by your gut instinct will help you succeed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would worry about sheps getting too hot outside, rather than too cold. And I am in Ohio. Building an approriate sized dog house that each can access is really a good idea.

I mean, if you ever need to be away overnight, the dogs will be better off without someone trying to come in and care for them, or even taking them to a boarding facility. These dogs would probably do better being left there and on their own IF they have a house, and a water bucket.

Should we do this with our house dogs? While an overnight wouldn't kill them, no. They are used to a ton of companionship, and the run of the house etc. They are also used to friends and relatives coming over. They can be cared for by outside people as well as friends and family. These dogs, at least at this point cannot be. 

So have the dog house in there, and if the situation presents itself and you MUST be gone overnight, the dogs will be fine.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

For what it's worth, I LIKE renaming dogs. I dont even name them something close to what they used to be named. I give them names that are far different from their old names. My feeling? First: New life, new name. You get a new chance to start all over.

Second: I never know if their name became a poisoned cue, that is, something that had bad stuff connected to it. Check out this link. Poisoned Cues These can really derail our training. So we want to be careful of them. 

If the dog was called by his name but got reprimanded, then his name is a poisoned cue. And MANY owners do that. "No, Fido. You're a bad dog!" That name, Fido, is a poisoned cue. He learns that being called his name isn't a good thing. It doesn't matter how many times his name is attached to good stuff like being petted and being given treats, he's always going to be wary when his name is called.

Best to give him a brand new name that doesn't sound anything like his old name and then work very hard not to poison it. 

How do we train a dog his new name? Ahhh, so simple. We stand near him and say the name and hand him (or drop in front of him) savory wonderful treats. Do this about twenty times. Pretty soon, he'll start to look at you once he hears his name. Wait for that, THEN hand him (or drop) the treats. Practice this a few times a day for a couple of days, and voila! you will have a dog that has a new name and a name that he is very happy with.

Best of all, you can pick names that YOU are very happy with. Choose names that reflect you, perhaps wonderful places that you and your wife have visited, or hobbies that you have, favorite authors, characters in movies, musicians, your wonderful aunt and uncle who took you fishing or always made you laugh... choose names that make you happy whenever you use them. This will be conveyed to your dogs when you call them. Instead of using names that the dogs may dread, that are baggage from a past life (a breeder that neither they nor you particularly like), you start anew. 

Every one of my dogs, especially my rescues, and especially my rescues that had very difficult pasts, responded extremely well to this. They seemed relieved to leave their pasts behind them.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

9Mom I'm going to run that by my wife when she gets home. I don't have a problem with their names but I do want to read that link.

But for a quick update, drum roll please . . . . . . . .. . . 

Maestro just ate from hand! I haven't been able to separate them yet but I was able to make Cleo sit. I haven't mentioned it yet but I have been making her sit every time I walk past to the house and I give her a treat sometimes and sometimes I just rub her head and say "Thassa good girl." and walk off. She does it every time I command now and seems happy to know she is pleasing me. 

But until just 10 minutes ago Maestro was still barking and growling at me about half the time. Nothing menacing like the first few days but this last time I came by he met me at the fence and nudged Cleo out of the way! I didn't know what to do - then I remembered I had a baggie in my pocket with smoked sausage links that I had been giving to Cleo judiciously throughout the day. He could never get any because I had quit throwing things to him deciding based on someones advice in this thread that they are going to have to come to me. 

He did and in spades. He actually nudged Cleo out of the way to sniff my hand. I was nervous but I told Cleo to sit which she did, and at the same time I stuffed a link in her mouth, I also presented maestro with a whole handful of links and wanted to close my eyes but I decided it would be best to look at my hand one last time. :laugh:

He seemed to be very hungry even though I have been keeping grain-free dry food for them (as suggested by the previous) but they don't seem to like it. But it's also not the brand she said they eat so that's part of it. They eat very small amounts and that's it. Also we have been giving them more treats than we should probably and that's the big reason I surmise but Maestro hasn't been getting his share because she gobbles it all up. I guess he finally had enough. Another break through and I still have both hands. 

A fringe benefit to all of this is that anytime I'm working and wish I had something to snack on I just tell myself I've been a good boy - and reach into the doggie bag. :wild:




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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think its time for you to realize they do not want to harm you! They need some love and are feeling it from you and your wife. Glad Maestro is coming around, next step is to get them away from the kennel for a nice walk around your property...a challenge that I bet you are up for? 
You never mentioned if they wear collars? I would assume not, for safety reasons. If you do get to that point of collaring them, go with no slip martingales so they can't back out when you do get them out of the kennel. They can't choke from them, but also won't be able to slip them off when on leash.


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

From what I'm reading, other than copious amounts of treats, which is a good thing under the circumstances, you're feeding the grain-free kibble and that's it, right? If so, maybe they'd like a little salt-free chicken broth (or homemade), some chopped meat and maybe a little cubed sweet potatoes mixed in. Something to make it more appetizing. Or are you already doing that?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good news on maestro !!


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

Sounds like you have made wonderful progress with these beautiful dogs in a very short time....I see only wonderful things to come!


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

That is great news!!! Thank you so much for adopting these 2 dogs and not giving up on them!! I think you will have 2 loving and very loyal dogs before you know it!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

This is the first I have seen of this thread and I have been glued to it from the beginning to current post. I am thrilled for you and the progress you have made! Thank you for taking these two in an giving them a true second chance! It seems from what I have read that perhaps they are starting to see that you are the good guys in their new life and that good things are happening to them and for them. What an exciting thread, exciting to know that two beautiful dogs are learning the true meaning of love and happiness!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Yay!!!! i'm glad maestro is finally coming out of his shell and being a happy friendly boy! and shoving Cleo out of the way lol. keep up the good work!!!! anxiously waiting to hear about the first walk!!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I wonder what's happening with these dogs?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i have been wondering too...


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## CaseysGSD (Oct 15, 2010)

any updates??


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

An amazing story as well as an epic journey. I can't wait for the next installment. The help and advice here is second to none. I especially liked the renaming post. I like the idea behind that because we thought of renaming Kelly.

Hoping to hear more about these 2 wonderful looking dogs and how their adjusting to their new lives.

:gsdbeggin:


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

How are these guys doing??


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

ahhh...I saw this thread bumped up and got all excited! Hope the pups are continuing to improve!


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

Cleo and Maestro are thriving in their newfound Valhalla. They _needed_ us, even though we never thought of this adoption that way. We thought that _we_ needed _them_. We discovered that we did - in ways we never imagined. 

I apologize for not updating this thread sooner but life comes at us at the speed of life. Y'all know about that I'm sure and we wouldn't have it any other way. 

I laid out a separate yard for Cleo to separate them and right before I built the fence I just got hard-headed or whatever you want to call it, and decided they would become part of our pack together. Our patience paid off in spite of our "dog behaviorist" ignorance. I didn't do this to prove anyone wrong or in spite any advice, we just kept laying our spirit out there, day after day and they recognized it sooner than we thought they might. 

I'm speaking in past tense because we have already all four bonded in a way that surpasses all ofo our expectations. They don't allow anyone into our domain including our family but that's the next step to introduce individual members slowly. I wish I had time to write a small book for you all who been so helpful but I simply don't. There's been so many difficult situations followed almost immediately by miraculous moments that it's impossible to convey right now. 

At the risk of sounding arrogant I do believe we have a talent for working with neglected dogs. The best attribute a human can have with a dog that needs love and attention is . . . . patience. A steady and consistent helping of even-keeled love and . . . . . patience. 

We kept Cleo's name because she was obviously more socialized and showed no psychological challenges as did Maestro. But she was slower to get the pecking order down than I thought. She just didn't want to let go of pack leader status but I finally made a breakthrough when I penned them in with me and slept with them one night (that's a whole chapter by itself) and she realized things were simply not the same anymore. 

I've left much out but that's all I can do for now the family is calling me in for the movie. I'll try to do better next installment. Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions they did help a great deal.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You've really devoted yourself to them! I hope it continues to go well. One thing I know from foster/rescue, dogs usually don't show true personality/confidence until about 6 months in. 
So keep up with the NILIF and strong leadership so there aren't issues when the dogs really know this is their forever home. I bet they are completely devoted and loyal to you and your family, hope they will discern that new people on your property are welcome, as long as you give the ok.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

:happyboogie:

Glad to hear it's going well. Keep up the good work, there will be a honeymoon period then don't be surprised if you see another last test just to see if you mean it. Keep Calm and Carry On.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh my, I just read this thread fro the first time, what an amazing story!!! Jupiter's Twin, trust you gut feeling, so far, it hasn't let you down. I am in awe of what you and your wife have accomplished!


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Fantastic news! I can not wait to hear the rest of the story.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

that is great news,,hey maybe you should a write a book about this experience that's now becoming a happy ending) It would make a wonderful story to share:


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i agree with jakoda. A book on the matter would be a pretty good read i'm sure. I'm things are getting better and better. thats just such great news! keep up the good work!!


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Trust yourself Jupiter! I think you're incredibly balanced or you wouldn't have got that far. If you do write a book, consider an ebook for my Kindle. LOL. 

I was a big fan of the Horse Whisperer when that movie came out and the actual person is quite extraordinary with his instincts about not only horses but people. You seem to have the same instincts with these 2 dogs.


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## Jupiter's Twins (Nov 10, 2010)

I forgot to mention Cleo has been playing fetch with us for a couple of weeks. She loves to bring the stick or her ball up to us then play "keep-away-from-the-human". My wife doesn't do it, but I chase her around the mound of dirt I made for them (thy love to sit atop of it - it's about 9' high). Then she chases after me for a while until I spin on her, and she makes a 180 and runs. I then walk toward the gate and say "Okay I quit" at which time she races to beat me to the gate and present me with the toy. Sometimes I take it sometimes I don't. Keep 'em guessing right!

Maestro just stays out of the way when we do this. He acted like he was going to play last week but thought better of it right as he got to the stick (I'd thrown one far away for Cleo then threw one close to Maestro). He's letting me pet him frequently though. He would probably let me more often but I make him make the first gesture. It's *very* subtle. He'll wait until Cleo has gotten plenty of attention and until she is no longer attentive to her surroundings. 

When she's in that "zone" where I'm rubbing her behind her ears and her head is drooping, he slides in beside but behind her and looks away staying just out of my arms reach. I'll then reach into my pocket and extend my hand - it's a cruel trick. He steps forward to see if I'm giving him a treat or just tricking him again. I snatch a few quick strokes across his head and across the back of his neck and he'll pretend he doesn't notice usually. He'll make like he's looking at something in the field while he enjoys the attention. Sometimes I give him a treat afterwards. He doesn't let my wife pet him carte blanche but he's much more at ease with her. I just know he has had a significantly bad "man experience". Well, I don't "know" that but my instinct tells me that based on his markedly polarized attitude toward men compared to women. 

Everyday brings a little more progress with him tough. Cleo is on me like glue whenever I'm in the fence. She can't get enough of my attention. I rarely give it until I initiate it but sometimes I just can't help it - she's so danged adorable! And you should hear them howl to the coyotes! They how better than timber wolves lol. My nearest neighbor said the first time he heard them howl (before he knew we had them) he couldn't figure out what it was. He said he knew it wasn't coyotes, didn't think it was wolves, but couldn't figure it out. Maestro could probably win a contest. they howl every night for about 15 minutes when they coyotes are running down their prey - it's music to our ears. 








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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Wow, amazing progress! I am truly impressed with how much you have done with them!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I love the body language of the dogs when they howl as much as the vocals! Have you brought out any toys to them? Jollyballs are a favorite, but if you want interaction with just you, "not alone time" a ball on a string or a tug toy would be fun. The dogs would see you as a source of interaction/fun and then look forward to you coming to play again! I save a few high value toys for me playing with the dogs vs the dogs playing with each other.
Sounds like they are settling in well, have you gone on any walks or leashed them around the property yet?
FYI sticks can be dangerous, I had a GSD that got one wedged in the back of his mouth, my husband had to pry it out...very scary!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I just love this thread! Please keep up with the updates. I'm rooting for Maestro! Thanks so much for sharing!


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