# Pedigree help



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7182/6868557879_f7062d04f3_b.jpg

Be blunt, please. I tried to find his dad on the Pedigree Database and could not unfortunately, so I just took a picture of my picture pedigree.

I'm concerned about what kind of issues I might have with him. So if anyone could help explain things to me that would be great. I did find his mom but the information has not been updated. Here she is: 

Noel Bella vom Zeder Kamme - German Shepherd Dog


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Linebreeding refers to how closely related the two sets of parents are
The lower the number of the linebreeding, the closer the relation. Most people like to stay above a 3-3 or 3-2 linebreeding because then you start getting very close relations that border on inbreeding. Your linebreeding only gets as close as 3-3 so it should be ok

Have the dam or sire been titled or rated? I only see hip scores and a CGC on the dam. Dam relates back to Ghandi and Ursus. 

Depending on what you plan to do with your pup, people can probably critique specific points


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Linebreeding refers to how closely related the two sets of parents are
> The lower the number of the linebreeding, the closer the relation. Most people like to stay above a 3-3 or 3-2 linebreeding because then you start getting very close relations that border on inbreeding. Your linebreeding only gets as close as 3-3 so it should be ok
> 
> Have the dam or sire been titled or rated? I only see hip scores and a CGC on the dam. Dam relates back to Ghandi and Ursus.
> ...


I plan to do Schutzhund and Agility. 

The strange thing is I found an article on some stud book about Noel Bella having SchH 2. It's not on the pedigree and it's not on the breeder's website. I've sent her an email inquiring about it. I know the mom does bite work because they worked her in front of me the first time I visited. She was very impressive, sound, had no issues, and even out performed some of the males that were there that day.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Take your pup to a club if you haven't already and have him or her evaluated. A good trainer can see drives that are developing in a young pup and recommend a course of action.

A great pedigree can give you greater confidience in your dog's drives, but unless you take him out and see how he does, a pedigree doesn't mean much. There are plenty of dogs with solid pedigrees that don't have drives because every litter will produce some dogs capable of doing one line of work vs. a companion type dog. Once he's a year or so, I would have his hips/elbows done before trying any intense SchH or agility. Just try out the sport, see how his drives are, if he likes the work and takes to it, continue with it. If not, nothing wrong with an active pet home


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Whatever is on PDB is what the person who entered the data (usually the dogs' owners) put in so it is never any guarantee of accuracy. The fact that the dog is not on PDB probably just means his owner or people who have his progeny have not bothered to put him up there. Nothing more nothing less.

All I can say is he is a showlines.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Whatever is on PDB is what the person who entered the data (usually the dogs' owners) put in so it is never any guarantee of accuracy. The fact that the dog is not on PDB probably just means his owner or people who have his progeny have not bothered to put him up there. Nothing more nothing less.
> 
> All I can say is he is a showlines.


Showlines are fully capable of doing Schutzhund, correct? His mother was doing tracking and protection, so I'm pretty sure they're capable. However I had someone say at the Sch club I visited that show lines are generally really good at obedience/tracking and then falter in protection because they're "more nervous". I don't think that's true. I just wanted to confirm.

Viking's been relatively sound. Loud noises don't bother him, other dogs don't really phase him (he just wants to play), he has never once acted afraid in a new situation, and he is not phased by sudden movements. The only thing he doesn't like is the vacuum, which he barks at because he doesn't understand it (the breeder's home was all tile and hardwood, she didn't use a vacuum so he'd never heard one before).


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

The paper copy doesn't have any titles/ratings listed either. From what I've seen, most breeders will title/rate before breeding.
But yes, it looks like WGSL so you might have more variance in the level of drive which can be an issue if you plan on doing sports more than conformation, so you will have to test your dog and see how he does in the sport


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think SL is "nervous", but they do not have the same level of drive on average like a WL. If you want a hard biter that will excel in the sport, I would hands down go with a WL. There are SL that work, but the intensity is not matched when comparing to a WL

My showdogs do work and they love the sport. Their tails wag nonstop as soon as we pull up to the schutzhund field and they have incredible intensity out in the field. But they will never bite as hard or intense like a GOOD working dog will. But that's the trade off


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My only comment on SL was I don't know anything about any showlines dogs. I am no pedigree expert as it is but do know some about some of the workinglines. It was not a judgement one way or the other.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I don't think SL is "nervous", but they do not have the same level of drive on average like a WL. If you want a hard biter that will excel in the sport, I would hands down go with a WL. There are SL that work, but the intensity is not matched when comparing to a WL
> 
> My showdogs do work and they love the sport. Their tails wag nonstop as soon as we pull up to the schutzhund field and they have incredible intensity out in the field. But they will never bite as hard or intense like a GOOD working dog will. But that's the trade off


Yeah. When I got Viking, I wanted a well rounded dog that could handle sport but wouldn't _require_ sport. I was worried that I might not like it. I mean, back in the thread I made when looking for a breeder I was COMPLETELY clueless as to what I wanted to do. I decided to go with a well rounded dog instead of a high drive just to get my feet in the water. I knew I'd want another dog, and now I want another dog even more (that will happen after I move or when viking is 2). Viking's essentially my dabble dog. I will try everything I can with him and take him as far as he's willing to go, but I don't expect him to be a champion. I just want to have fun. 

My next dog will be a working dog. I know now that I love dog sports almost as much as I love equestrian sports (which is a LOT). Agility looked beyond fun (I visited a training place for it and watched a session just out of curiosity). And after watching Schutzhund today I just couldn't stop thinking about how much I wished I was down there working with Viking.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> My only comment on SL was I don't know anything about any showlines dogs. I am no pedigree expert as it is but do know some about some of the workinglines. It was not a judgement one way or the other.


Oh no I was just asking you. I didn't think you were being judgmental.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

You can still have fun in the sport with a SL. It all depends what your goals are. Do you plan on competing aggressively on a top level in SchH? If so, you HAVE to get a top level working dog to do that. If not, there is nothing wrong with a dog that might not excel at the sport, but still has fun doing it. My dogs won't go to nationals to compete in schutzhund, but I have a great time training and they love the sport so that's fine for now because I have more goals than schutzhund so I give up drive for the other factors like conformation


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> You can still have fun in the sport with a SL. It all depends what your goals are. Do you plan on competing aggressively on a top level in SchH? If so, you HAVE to get a top level working dog to do that. If not, there is nothing wrong with a dog that might not excel at the sport, but still has fun doing it. My dogs won't go to nationals to compete in schutzhund, but I have a great time training and they love the sport so that's fine for now because I have more goals than schutzhund so I give up drive for the other factors like conformation


I'd like to get titles but I probably won't compete on a national level, just a regional level.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

If a dog has ok drives, you can work with a good trainer and title the dog with no problem. There are plenty of SL with zero drive and a good trainer in Germany can put a IPO1 on most any dog. Just a title doesn't indicate much..specially a 1

You might not get top scores or be able to compete at a higher level with a dog that isn't cut out for the sport though. I have a guy in my club that has been training his dog for YEARS now and will only now be able to put a 1 on his dog at the next trial in the spring. Also, it's a difficult sport to pick up so it might take _a long time_ to get good enough to compete at a higher level. Not to discourage you, just letting you know to manage expectations


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well you already have the puppy. Thing to do is go to a club and just get involved. I think you would be best doing one thing at a time (schutzhund - OR - agility). Not sure if the agility folks will take a dog with "bite training" - may want to check.

My vote would be to start on the schutzhund though - don't they usually start with the tracking part pretty young-not sure how much agility you would do with a pup before the growth plates closed-I know with my cadaver dog puppy most of our agility right now is about foot placement and unstable surfaces etc. no jumps.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I agree jocoyn. I don't think you will be able to do much in agility before the age of 1 (and I wouldn't want to because of potential growth issues). Wait on serious agility till the dog has had the hips/elbows done. 

How old is your pup? We have 2/3 month old pups at our club that will come out to do puppy bite work where we just use the flirt pole or puppy tugs to build drive and encourage grips/prey drive. You can even do that at home. Just get an old fishing pole, attach a string with a leather glove or piece of jute at the end of it and use it to tease the dog. Let it chase the target, bite it, only let it have it if the grips are full and he uses his molars to bite instead of the canines, reward him with a bite for barking at the target and end the session with him wanting more. You don't want him to get bored of it. Things like that can do wonders to build drive. My dogs weren't allowed on the sleeve until they were able to demonstrate good grips in the puppy ring. Especially my male was slow to develop, but his performance has improved a lot now that we are able to bring out his defense rather than rely on prey drive when he was younger.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am not a show line expert either, but I think you probably have a very nice pup who may be perfect for what you want to do. As others have said you need to have her evaluated but we have some show lines at our club that do well in schutzhund, they are beautiful dogs and also make great pets. Don't worry about all the talk of showlines are not great schutzhund dogs. Some do really well. Not all working line dogs do well in schutzhund either.


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Well you already have the puppy. Thing to do is go to a club and just get involved. I think you would be best doing one thing at a time (schutzhund - OR - agility). Not sure if the agility folks will take a dog with "bite training" - may want to check.
> 
> My vote would be to start on the schutzhund though - don't they usually start with the tracking part pretty young-not sure how much agility you would do with a pup before the growth plates closed-I know with my cadaver dog puppy most of our agility right now is about foot placement and unstable surfaces etc. no jumps.


Yeah, I have no intentions of agility until at least six months. There's a novice agility class that doesn't do any jumps and just works on body awareness to prepare for actual agility at the age of one. Originally I was going to start him at 6 but I'm thinking closer to 7-8 months now. I didn't know that agility people weren't okay with Schutzhund people! A friend on another forum puts her German Shepherd through both without issue. 

Based on the interviews I've done with club leaders they start with Tracking and Obedience, and then when the dog is 6-12 months (depends on the dog) they begin protection work. Thanks for the tips.  



qbchottu said:


> I agree jocoyn. I don't think you will be able to do much in agility before the age of 1 (and I wouldn't want to because of potential growth issues). Wait on serious agility till the dog has had the hips/elbows done.
> 
> How old is your pup? We have 2/3 month old pups at our club that will come out to do puppy bite work where we just use the flirt pole or puppy tugs to build drive and encourage grips/prey drive. You can even do that at home. Just get an old fishing pole, attach a string with a leather glove or piece of jute at the end of it and use it to tease the dog. Let it chase the target, bite it, only let it have it if the grips are full and he uses his molars to bite instead of the canines, reward him with a bite for barking at the target and end the session with him wanting more. You don't want him to get bored of it. Things like that can do wonders to build drive. My dogs weren't allowed on the sleeve until they were able to demonstrate good grips in the puppy ring. Especially my male was slow to develop, but his performance has improved a lot now that we are able to bring out his defense rather than rely on prey drive when he was younger.


Yeah, my main focus is just getting involved period. Body awareness is a good thing even if it is a bit boring.

Viking is 3 months. I've heard that males don't start to show their true colors for awhile. I'll ask the trainer about drive development in puppies. Thanks for the training tip.



robk said:


> I am not a show line expert either, but I think you probably have a very nice pup who may be perfect for what you want to do. As others have said you need to have her evaluated but we have some show lines at our club that do well in schutzhund, they are beautiful dogs and also make great pets. Don't worry about all the talk of showlines are not great schutzhund dogs. Some do really well. Not all working line dogs do well in schutzhund either.


:wub: Thanks.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you just need to find out about whether or not dogs with bitework are accepted. Some groups are fine; others are not. I know an AKC oriented kennel club where I used to live would not let a dog with schutzhund training participate any any events. I don't believe it is a across the board, just a consideration that may (or may not) be a barrier for you.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> I think you just need to find out about whether or not dogs with bitework are accepted. Some groups are fine; others are not. I know an AKC oriented kennel club where I used to live would not let a dog with schutzhund training participate any any events. I don't believe it is a across the board, just a consideration that may (or may not) be a barrier for you.


How are they going to know if the owner doesn't tell them?


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## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> How are they going to know if the owner doesn't tell them?


Super secret private investigation programs?


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Ladyfreckles- What club did you visit? I have done some training around WA and know of a lot of the clubs as I have visited most of them! There are a few in your area to steer clear of...really one for sure as the other is not meeting now..possibly disbanded not too sure. 

I have seen SL do Schutzhund and while I have not SEEN one that is as strong in the protection portion as a WL is, the dogs still are good at it and they love doing it!


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