# Royal Canin Dog Food?



## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

I was at Petco today and have been contemplating what dry food to put our new GSD on. I came across the Royal Canin brand and was curious if any of you have tried this? What results did you have? Heard anything about it? I thought it was interesting that they had 'breed specific' formulas in their dog food, and actually have one specifically aimed at the needs of a German Shepherd (supposedly).

Any insight? Thanks!


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I think it is over priced for what they offer. When looking for a dog food, make sure it doesn't have corn, wheat or soy in it. Also NO by-products.


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

Yeah, I did notice it was around $50-60 for a 35lb bag.. sounded high!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The Feb 2010 Whole Dog Journal has the annual Approved dry food list for 2010, RC isn't on it. Many times when a company does the "breed specific" it is a marketing ploy.
This site may be helpful to you: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

They must not have done their research well because if they did they'd know that gsds often don't do well on grains and their food is full of them!









Chicken meal, brown rice, oatmeal, chicken fat, barley, rice, natural chicken flavor, pork meal, soy protein isolate, sodium silico aluminate, wheat gluten meal, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), powdered cellulose, anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), soya oil, potassium chloride, salt, calcium carbonate, dried egg product, sodium tripolyphosphate, DL-methionine, L-tyrosine, taurine, dried brewers yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), Vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), Trace Minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], tea (green tea extract), chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E) and citric acid.


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: 1stGSDandEXCITEDYeah, I did notice it was around $50-60 for a 35lb bag.. sounded high!


Yes, so if you pay that much for a bag, you'd expect wonderful things to be in it, right? Unfortunately Science Diet, Eukanuba and Royal Canin are a few brands that have highly inflated prices but are full of cheap, less-nutritious ingredients. 

Next time you're at Petsmart, look at the ingredient listing on the Royal Canin and then go check out the Blue Buffalo (most Petsmarts should carry this brand). 

Compare the ingredients, and you will see a food that is made up of real, whole foods like New Zealand lamb, sweet potatoes, blueberries, etc. and not meat by-products (which are whatever old, nasty scraps are left over AFTER making bologna and hot dogs, if it even made it that far into the human food industry), glutens, soy, wheat, and other extremely cheap and often downright disgusting things in some of the above named brands and popular grocery brands. 

Now wouldn't you rather pay THAT company, Blue Buffalo, the $45-$50?









Then, with better nutrition, your dog will in turn be healthier and hopefully cost you less money and heartbreak down the road.

Dog nutrition is a very huge topic, many of us could write a novel on here about choosing food, so when someone is first starting to look into what they're feeding their dog, I like to put it to them like this since I think it most readily make sense.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Royal Canin is king of putting a picture of "your" dog on it's bag making you think "wow! this must be exactly what my dog needs!"

When I first got Anna, I looked at it, then compared it to Blue Buffalo and was shocked at the quality diifference for the price. I went with BB. 

Also, our Petsmart has extended their BB selection GREATLY the last time I was in there training with Anna. She and Dunc both liked it when hey were on it and my mom and sister feed it to their dogs.


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

Im loving all the advice, keep it coming! I need everything I can get!

Much appreciated ya'll!


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Ruth - if this is the ingredients for RC - WDJ did NOT recommend that food. I think you may have read that wrong (?)


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

I've been looking at the BB for a bit, it looks like a great start for us. I will definitely try it.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I would recommend Natural Balance or Blue Buffalo, both available at Petco and good food.

Both foods made the Whole Dog Journal list as well. I read it last night as I got my magazines in the mail from hubby yesterday. 

You might consider subscirbing to the Whole Dog Journal, it is an excellent publication. Like anything, I do not alwyay agree with everything they say but it is a very good magazine.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

I put Titon on Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy and he couldn't get solid stools and would itch like crazy. 

Just switched over to Innova Puppy Dry and he seems to be doing solid stools and no more itching. We'll see as we get deeper into the bag.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Each dog will do differntly on different foods. In my case the BB helped my gooey pooey dog.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

certainly not the worst food out there, BUT...

....quite simply, it is grossly over priced for what you get. and yes, they are brilliant with their marketing (which is what i expect you are partially paying for with their bloated prices). creating "specifically designed" food for all those different breeds seems to draw many people's attention.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWEach dog will do differntly on different foods. In my case the BB helped my gooey pooey dog.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

Right now I am feeding RC GS 24 and it works for me. However, I was checking the calorie count in some other foods the other night and went to look at RC. That is when I found out they have re-formulated it as Ruth posted above. I don't like the fact they have added wheat gluten and pork meal. The old formula is still in the store here. Frankly I have never had my dog's coat so good with the old formula I am feeding now. But because they have changed the formula, I will be changing and am seriously considering raw.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote: The old formula is still in the store here.


Don't count on it. I've read that dog food manufacturer's have 6 month to change their packaging - the food you see in the store may be the new formula packaged in the old printed bags.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh crap!


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

Rica and Aodhán were on the RC at one time. It gave them gas.

I think Ruth may have meant that RC didn't do their research for the "German Shepherd formulated" kibble.

I find that my dogs do best on the grain free foods. The only grain free that was a little problematic was Wellness Core. I gave some to Rica when she refused TOTW in her last months. Her poops were OK but it gave her terrible, room-clearing gas.

I've had Caleb on the Blue Buffalo Wilderness and he's done well on it. I think that's one of the varieties that Petco doesn't carry. I get it a Pet Supplies Plus, which has very reasonable prices for kibble in my area.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Skye'sMomRuth - if this is the ingredients for RC - WDJ did NOT recommend that food. I think you may have read that wrong (?)


I didn't say anything about WDJ...







Those are the ingredients for RC gsd formula. My point was that many gsds don't do well on grains and are especially sensitive to barley and so RC didn't do their research about gsds very well.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

When we tried grain-free kibbles our dogs got really bad gas. Now our dogs are on RAW now (90% of their meals) we do have some meals as kibbles just due to my schedule. We brought some grains back with the kibble, using the Eukanuba GSD. While the ingredients don't read like the Orijen, they don't get the gas with the Eukanuba ....it worried me that they could get bloat with a build up of gas in the system on the Orijen. We still prefer feeding the RAW and we don't get gas that way - plus the poop is that crumbly stuff - and much easier to clean up. Blue Buffalo has a nice array of ingredients too but never tried it - wasn't sure about the life source bits just in case my dogs ate more life bits than kibble or vice versa. I really don't understand those bits.

Best on your journey of dog food. There are some on the board that use the GSD from RC and have good results. While many dogs are allergic to certain ingredients...if your dog isn't allergic, then it shouldn't be an issue. Do try to get some Raw Meaty Bones in the diet  keeps the teeth and gums clean! Plus your dog will love it!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

What other pet stores do you have around you? 

I like Blue Buffalo, Natura brand (ie Innova, EVO, California Natural, etc), and Old Mother Hubbard (ie Wellness), and Champion Foods (ie Orijen, Acana).

I think those are all pretty solid companies that have good track records. For the price of all of them, you are getting a really good food. Like others have said, RC isn't the worst food out there, but for what you are paying for you can do a LOT better. RC and Eukanuba are the two most overpriced foods out there I think...


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Sorry, Ruth - I was linking your comment to the WDJ not doing research, but understand now what you were really saying. My error.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Just an FYI - Petco is normally $5 - $8 more per bag of dog food in price than our Petsmart here. Do you have a Petsmart nearby?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Never was happy with this food and now don't even consider it as a choice for mine though it is certainly easy to get here.


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

Alright, wrote the breeder another email and found out that Phantom is currently on Pro Pac. Any thoughts/experiences on that one? I'd rather not start a new thread so I dont make a mess. haha


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Chicken Meal, *Ground Yellow Corn*,* Rice Flour*, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), *Dried Beet Pulp*, Natural Flavoring, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast. Yeast Culture, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine Hydroxy Analogue, L-Lysine, Vitamin E Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, D-activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin A Acetate, Niacin, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Folic Acid, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Magnesium Proteinate, Copper Proteinate.

CALORIE CONTENT:
439 kilo-calories per cup


Not Super Super horrible. But I could grade it a C to C-. Personally I wouldn't feed it. I see one source of good protein and then a lot of starches and fillers.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

That is not the formula that is on my bag of RC GSD 24. There is no corn, wheat or glutens listed. The new formula, according to the RC website, has wheat gluten and pork meal added. Anyway with the new change in formula, I will be changing.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Before RC was purchased by Nestles, they had a great product. Their original formula was based upon the digestive issues associated with the German shepherd. Like most successful small companies, they were bought-out by a big conglomerate where the bottom line dictates the formula. The original formula was very good - I'm not impressed with the current formulations.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Royal Canin - change in formula*



Doc said:


> Before RC was purchased by Nestles, they had a great product. Their original formula was based upon the digestive issues associated with the German shepherd. Like most successful small companies, they were bought-out by a big conglomerate where the bottom line dictates the formula. The original formula was very good - I'm not impressed with the current formulations.


Royal Canin was bought by Mars not Nestle

*Here is the old formula just last year and still may be on the shelf:*

Ingredients: Chicken meal, brown rice, rice, chicken fat, oatmeal, soy protein isolate, natural chicken flavor, powdered cellulose, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), sodium silico aluminate, anchovy oil (source of DHA), soya oil, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, dried egg product, sodium tripolyphosphate, DL-methionine, L-tyrosine, taurine*, salt, dried brewers yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C*), inositol, niacin, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C2), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin (vitamin B2) supplement, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride*, marigold extract (Calendula officinalis L.), Trace minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], tea (green tea extract), chondroitin sulfate*, preserved with mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E) and citric acid, rosemary extract.
Guaranteed Analysis:
•	Crude Protein (min) 24.0%
•	Crude Fat (min) 19.0%
•	Crude Fiber (max) 3.2%
•	Moisture (max) 9.0%
•	Glucosamine Hydrochloride* (min) 780 mg/kg
•	Chondroitin Sulfate* (min) 220 mg/kg

*Here is the NEW Formula as seen on the RC website and at Petco website:*

Ingredients
Chicken, brown rice, oatmeal, chicken fat, barley, rice, natural chicken flavor, pork meal, soy protein isolate, sodium silico aluminate, wheat gluten meal, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), powdered cellulose, anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), soya oil, potassium chloride, salt, calcium carbonate, dried egg product, sodium tripolyphosphate, DL-methionine, L-tyrosine, taurine, dried brewers yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), vitamins (DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, marigold extract (tagetes erecta L.), trace minerals (zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), tea (green tea extract), chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols and citric acid.
________________________________________

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude protein (min.) 24%, crude fat (min.) 17.5%, crude fiber (max.) 4.1%, moisture (max.) 10%, vitamin E (min.) 600 mg/kg, chondroitin sulfate* (min.) 100 mg/kg, glucosamine hydrochloride* (min.) 900 mg/kg, omega 3 essential fatty acids* (min.) 0.74%.
Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles.


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## adasmomma22 (Feb 8, 2010)

i have mary jane on taste of the wild and she seems to really like it.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I love your dogs name - Mary Jane - Do you have a Peter Parker ;-)


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## adasmomma22 (Feb 8, 2010)

no the owner we got her from named her marianne, but we did not like it so we needed a similar name that would not confuse her, their other two dogs they had were ginger and skipper, lol


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thats too cute!


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

Ok... *sigh*.

So I went into a feed store today, AND Petco.. leaving empty-handed both times.
I was just too confused to make a firm decision, HAD to come back here and review the posts again about the dog food...

After doing a little more research, I think we're most comfortable trying Orijin. Have to drive a little further to get it, but it sounds like a superior product... if he will eat it.

Wish us luck! the gap is closing and he'll be here soon!


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Make sure to get the Large Breed Puppy if you go with Orijen. And slowly transition from whatever they have him eating now  congrats on the new comer tomorrow!!!!


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

FINALLY found the pro pac food..just in time! Now at least I can have him on his typical food for a week or two before we begin to transition. Don't want to throw too much on him at once.

How should I begin the transition process? 

Example:
3/4 - pro pac
1/4 - Orijen

Stay on that for a week? 

1/2 - pro pac
1/2 - Orijen

Stay on that for a week?

etc... etc.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

did you buy the orijen already? if possible I would try to buy a few trial bags (to make sure he likes it before you spend all that money)

before jumping straight to 1/4 cup i would just sprinkle in a tiny amount of Orijen with his food for a day or 2 and then work up to a 1/4 cup. keep track of his poops and if they remain solid go ahead and move up to 1/2 cup. you may have to find some middle area between 1/4 and 1/2 but since he's around 8 months? (if i'm remembering right) You'll probably be fine going 1/4 to 1/2..just my 2 cents


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Sorry for swaying off topic but I thought I'd ask anyways since it is somewhat on topic...

Which would you choose between these 2 brands?

Innova Large Puppy or Orijen Large Puppy?


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Burns0716 said:


> FINALLY found the pro pac food..just in time! Now at least I can have him on his typical food for a week or two before we begin to transition. Don't want to throw too much on him at once.
> 
> How should I begin the transition process?
> 
> ...


Because Orijen is so rich, I would transition ever slower, well in smaller steps anyways.

How much food do you feed? If you fed 4 cups a day of Propac (2 meals of 2 cups a day), here is a plan.

Days 1-3: Feed 3 1/2 c. Pro pac, 1/2 c. Orijen (1/8 new)
Days 4-6: Feed 3 c. Pro plan, 1 c. Orijen (1/4 new)
Days 7-9: Feed 2 1/2 Pro plan, 1 1/2 c. Orijen (3/8 new)
Days 10-12: Feed 2 c. Pro plan, 2 c. Orijen (1/2) new)
Days 13-15: Feed 1 1/2 c. Proplan, 2 1/2 c. Orijen (5/8 new)
Days 16-18: Feed 1 c. Proplan, 3 c. Orijen (3/4 new)
Days 19-21: Feed 1/2 c. proplan, 3 1/2 Orijen (7/8 new)
Day 22+: Feed all Orijen.

I would also recommend adding a tablespoon of canned plain pumpkin to his meals to help keep everything firm. If he gets very soft poop when you up the amounts at anytime take one step back and stay on that for 3 more days until he adjusts and then up again. Good Luck!


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## Burns0716 (Feb 4, 2010)

Brandi and Kira 

Good to know this, Thank you much!


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

TitonsDad said:


> Sorry for swaying off topic but I thought I'd ask anyways since it is somewhat on topic...
> 
> Which would you choose between these 2 brands?
> 
> Innova Large Puppy or Orijen Large Puppy?


Depends on what works best for him. 
Orijen is grainfree and Innova has grains.
Orijen is too rich for some pups. Innova is little less rich.

Both high quality kibble.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Good enough for me... I find it a lot better than BB though I must admit. 

-E


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## WynterCote (Feb 15, 2010)

Royal Canin was recommended by our breeder. So we got a bag of Royal Canin Baby Dog food in preparation for our puppy. We'll stick with it for now since it's the only food our puppy knows. But like you, we spent the better part of an hour in Petco comparing it to other brands. It seems rather pricy when comparing to similar quality food choices, but it's still on the natural side of the food spectrum so that's good. And it has glucosamine added for joints which I think somewhat lends to the shepherd specificity. The store assistant recommended Blue Buffalo or Blue Buffalo Wilderness for better quality at the same price as Royal Canin. So I think it's fair to say that we'll be switching our pup at some point either to BB or something else after I research more brands.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

rjvamp said:


> Royal Canin was bought by Mars not Nestle
> 
> *Here is the old formula just last year and still may be on the shelf:*
> 
> ...


I was talking before, way before, the buyout. RC German shepherd food was based on scientific research of the digestive system of a German shepherd. In it's original form - it was a good product. Now it is average at best.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

wow, the new formula looks like it belongs in the grocery store now. not even using chicken meal, so it is a rice based food. they should cut the price in half (or more)........dream on.


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## chickenfingers (Feb 15, 2010)

Royal Canine actually does research the formula. This was reccomended to me by my vet, who actually took a tour of the facility here in Canada. She said it was the cleanest most efficient place and you wouldn't know it was a dog food plant. She said they are cery cautious about health and safety of the processing and you cannot enter the facility until you are wearing a minimum of a hairnet, gloves and over coat on. It is expensive but, my dog loves the brand and knowing it comes from a clean facility that cares about the product makes me feel more secure about what I'm feeding Bonny.

Side note to all this is if you cut out the UPC codes you can go to their website and send them in to redeem things specific to your breed. I think right now they have a book up for grabs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Everyone talks about corn, but what no one talks about is barley. It is hard to find a dog food without barley in it nowadays.

When I was having my dog food issue, I was talking to my vet -- I know not a nutricianist, and I said that I try to stay away from corn and wheat and beef. Well, she said that she had just gotten a list from her nutricianist and she said that corn really isn't all that bad.

She said Beef, wheat, barley, and chicken are much more likely to cause allergies. 

I am currently praying that none of my dogs have a problem with chicken because I cannot afford beef -- even for myself. 

Which brings us to corn. I know that moldy corn can be toxic, but corn in an of itself is not really suppose to be as nasty as all that. 

If I believe that, then I have to give foods like Bil Jac another look. I think that the cheaper foods were using corn because it is relatively cheap, but that does not make it bad. But it can be bad by association. I mean if your dog does not do well on dog food A, B, C, D, and E, and each of those have corn in them, you can say "aha" corn, bad! But it could also be that each of those foods are using low quality ingredients and fillers, they may all use the same pre-mix. They are probably all produced by the same manufacturer (a name that is not on the packaging). They may all of been subjected to the same environmental conditions. They may all have the same hormones and preservatives.



At this point, I am more concerned with who is producing the foods. I switched my dogs to a food with corn and chicken and all are doing well with it. Whit has gone from 53 pounds to 61 pounds and has never looked better. 

Beet pulp is another thing that I see bolded in one of these threads. It seems like beet pulp will help get the stool solid. I do not know a whole lot about it. Anyone care to educate on the evils of beet pulp?

I think I am rambaling. 

Tried Royal Canin, Yep the big GSD on the front got my money. My dogs were not thrilled with it. I was boosting them a couple of years ago, and putting RC, Wellness Core, Natures Variety Raw Instinct, and Solid Gold Barking at the Moon on top of their foods. RC was the first to be dropped.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

rjvamp said:


> Just an FYI - Petco is normally $5 - $8 more per bag of dog food in price than our Petsmart here. Do you have a Petsmart nearby?


It is the opposite here on dog food prices. Anyone know when the formula changed? I was thinking the color was different, but I figured it was me, guess not. WIll have to wait and see, Rocky has been doing great on this food and he really likes it.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

bonnysperson said:


> Royal Canine actually does research the formula. This was reccomended to me by my vet,.


id be curious to see their research that shows dogs are more suited to eating and digesting rice rather than meat, since their new formula consists of more rice/grains than meat.

first 6 ingredients in their new formula: _Chicken, brown rice, oatmeal, chicken fat, barley, rice, natural chicken flavor_


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*RE: Selzer and Food Ingredients*

Good points Selzer. Those are some very good points as to why I’m not really worried about feeding some grain in kibble when I do actually give kibble as a convenient food on occasion.
One thing that I’ve seen people mention – and not just about corn – is the 1st ingredient. So that got me to thinking. Since we don’t know how much of an ingredient is in a food (trade secret) we can only make a guess based on the $ of protein (dry matter basis) to the food as a whole to figure out how much grain is probably in the food – if it even matters depending on the dog. The higher the protein (and no glutens involved or potato, alfalfa or pea proteins) then I would expect a higher % of meat in the food vs. grains or other ingredients).
Example kibble (made up): Rice, Lamb meal, dried beet pulp, animal fat, eggs, fish meal, corn, chicken, fish oil, brown rice, vitamins and minerals.
So let’s say a food is 25% protein and 15% fat. That leaves 60% for everything else. This tells me the food probably has a lot of non-meat in it if the protein is only 25%. 
Anything before the animal fat in the example is supposed to make up a majority of the food. What “majority” means I have no clue since again “trade secret” on formulations.
 So that brings me to ingredients by weight
If the majority of the food ingredient is 75% of the diet (making a guess here) I could play a bit with the numbers:
30% Rice
25% Lamb Meal
10% Dried Beet Pulp
10% Animal Fat
75% of diet….now the rest
5% Eggs
5% Fish Meal
4% Corn 
3% Chicken
3% Fish Oil
3% Brown Rice
2% Vitamins and Minerals
25% of diet after the animal fat
100% total = 37% grain, 10% beet pulp, 33% meat, 5% dairy, 13% is oils/fat (fish and animal), 2% is vitamins and minerals). So this diet is made up of slightly more grain than meat or if the % shifts around a bit, then almost a 1:1 ratio of meat to grains, then oils, beet pulp and dairy. The higher the % of protein then I would expect to see a higher % of meat in the food. Even though there are 3 meats listed, there are also 3 grains listed which make up a slight majority of the food depending on the weight; never know the exact weight of the individual ingredients or % because manufacturers cannot tell us due to trade secrets. 
I think your question about different grains and allergies is a good point and really does force some to reject a good food because of the bad press. I know people said many negative things about me feeding Kumpi when I fed it – it was a great food for my dogs. I even recommended it to you and you got great results – glad to hear your dogs gained the weight if you are continuing to feed it! In my example: the ratio of meat to grain may not mean much to a dog depending on how the dog metabolizes the food. So a food could have more grains than meat and vice versa. What matters is how a dog does on the diet. That can be kibbles, wet or raw or all of the above. And we don’t have to make it a competition (cause that is how it seems some days) to see who feeds the best food and can recommend the best food– cause our human view may not be the right view for our dogs. I did a test on raw just to see and my dogs did very well on it. So I was willing to take a chance on something different. Thankfully my dogs can eat anything! And I would have no problem ordering a bag of Kumpi or buying a bag of Eukanuba to use as kibble or even a Wellness Simple Solutions diet with only 1 protein and 1 carb source.
 I’ve read on the Pet Education website (they link to a study) that shows meat over grains are usually the culprits in food allergies. Although it is easier for manufacturer’s to claim a grain as the BIG one. And people will tell you that but the science doesn’t support it. Personally I think there are too many choices in pet food today and it makes it very confusing. I like doing the RAW and then add some conventional pre-made foods on occasions. Plus I think I’ve spent way too much time thinking about food! It gives me a headache now.


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## 3ToesTonyismydog (Dec 27, 2009)

Go to a pet store and get one of these brands, list below. You know shepherds have very sensitive skin and corn, wheat, beet pulp and soy al irrate thier skin and eyes. I feed 4 brands in the am he gets fromm duck and caifornia natural(grain low protein) at night he gets Orijen and TOTW wetlands(grainless and high protein).

Artemis
Blue Wilderness
Go
Horizon
Evo 
Innova
Instinct
Orijen
Taste of the Wild
Wellness
Acana
Fromm
Merrick
Canidae
Evanders
Earthborn
Natures Variety
Natures logic
Solidgold
Pinnacle
Timberwolf
Blue Buffalo
Halo
California Natural​


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*RE:*

Mine are actually on majority raw now...but when I fed kibbles with grain I had NO problems...i just switched to see how they would do because folks said they would do great. Plus it is natures toothbrush to feed raw meaty bones.

If I had to go back to only kibble that had grain I would not have an issue. My dogs never had eye issues, skin issues, ear issues - none of that - but they did pass a lot of gas on the grain-free kibble. So I stopped feeding it.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

i dont think some grains in kibble are a big deal. my dog doesnt tolerate grains at all so i avoid those food. otherwise there are several foods with grain that id be willing to feed.

but, when the first real ingredient in a food is grain (as it is in the new RC formula) and thats followed by more grains, i see no conceivable way there is much meat in there at all.

even that would be ok if a grain heavy food is all a dog can handle, but at least RC could charge $20 for a 30 lb bag, which would reflect the cheapness of their primary ingredients.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

roxy84 said:


> i dont think some grains in kibble are a big deal. my dog doesnt tolerate grains at all so i avoid those food. otherwise there are several foods with grain that id be willing to feed.
> 
> but, when the first real ingredient in a food is grain (as it is in the new RC formula) and thats followed by more grains, i see no conceivable way there is much meat in there at all.
> 
> even that would be ok if a grain heavy food is all a dog can handle, but at least RC could charge $20 for a 30 lb bag, which would reflect the cheapness of their primary ingredients.


*German Shepherd Puppy 30







*

*Dog Food for German Shepherd puppies from 8 weeks to 15 months old*


Chicken meal, rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten meal, chicken fat, natural chicken flavor, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), sodium silico aluminate, anchovy oil (source of EPA/DHA), dried egg product, fructo-oligosaccharides, psyllium seed husk, soya oil, potassium chloride, salt, sodium tripolyphosphate, L-lysine, taurine, dried brewers yeast extract (source of mannan-oligosaccharides), DL-methionine, Vitamins [DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), inositol, niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), D-calcium pantothenate, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), riboflavin supplement (vitamin B2), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin A acetate, folic acid, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement], choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, Trace Minerals [zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), chondroitin sulfate, rosemary extract, preserved with natural mixed tocopherols (source of vitamin E) and citric acid.

Chicken Meal is the first ingredent then rice (not too bad so far - what do you feed a puppy with runny stools?), oatmeal, brown rice (not too bad) the corn and wheat gluten troubles me most.

Maybe not the best kibble around but certainly not the worst. I would try this formula.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Interestingly I've read studies show rice causes more water in the stool vs. corn. Not sure how oatmeal compares. Rice also causes a higher glycemic response - which is funny since corn is so "hated" but was actually one of the lowest in glycemic responses compared to other grains. Eukanuba uses a blend of carbs that all scored at the lower end of the glycemic response (sorghum, corn, barley) in most of their formulas and they call it Energy Management System. 

I've used the ultra holistic duck and oatmeal for Angeles - he loves it - smells like chicken salad. And for runny stool we have used pumpkin in a can.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Doc said:


> *German Shepherd Puppy 30
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As far as "not" being the best kibble .... if it works for the dog compared to other formulas even "better" kibbles, then it is the "best" kibble for that dog. best can be dependent on many factors. Everyone has an opinion of course. And of course mine of late has been raw meaty bones (although tonight they had kibble with shredded freeze-dried raw on top).


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was wondering what would be the purpose of feeding grains to a normal dog?

More On Grains?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

Samba said:


> I was wondering what would be the purpose of feeding grains to a normal dog?
> 
> More On Grains?


 
there is no real "purpose" to it, imo. their use just makes economic sense to the manufacturers.

that is my real issue with companies like RC. if you are going to produce a grain heavy food, then dont price it as though it is a more meat inclusive, grainless food.


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## ChrisR2010 (Dec 5, 2009)

Good point. Royal Canin has a place on the marketplace but as a low-end product. It is currently at the same price point or more expensive than the real dog food.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Which would be better:

"Chicken meal, rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten meal, chicken fat, etc."

Or one that had:
Corn, chicken meal, chicken fat. 

????

Is this better:

Chicken, Rice....

Or 

Rice, Chicken meal...

???

Frankly, in this one, there is probably a whole lot more grain than any type of meat protein. If you had 20% chicken meal, 19.5% rice, 19% oatmeal, 18.8% brown rice, etc. it would be ok. Further that gluten is there to artificially booster the protein values, so you cannot even look at the protein and say that it has plenty of meat in it:

"Chicken meal, rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten meal, chicken fat, etc."

Is picking a dog food really an art or a science or a gamble???


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

this is why I feed raw. I know 100% of what is in what I feed him. MEAT! With that put aside, I would say that choosing the correct dog food is a science and a gamble. Fortunately you have the tools to help you choose a food that has a higher chance of being a good quality healthy nutrition for your dog.

I would say both of you examples are poor.

Here is Eukanuba...
Chicken (Maybe 22%, much less after cooking)
Corn Meal (20%)
Ground Whole Grain Sorghum (18%)
Chicken By-Product Meal (16%)
Brewers Rice (14%)
Fish Meal(10%)

You can see that a large portion of this food much be made of grains and that a big chunk of the protein comes from corn, not meat)

Take Canidae ALS, granted not the best food, but similar in price to Eukanuba

Chicken meal (16%)
turkey meal (14%)
lamb meal (12%)
brown rice (12%)
white rice (11%)
rice bran (10%)
peas (6%)
potatoes (5%)
oatmeal (6%)
cracked pearled barley (4%)
chicken fat (3%)



You can see even if I lowered the percentages and went equal across the board, it would still have all the protein sources from meat, and more of the calories come from protein.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Is this better:

Btw, I was referring to this when i said both were bad.

*Chicken, Rice....

Or 

Rice, Chicken meal...
*

Chicken and then rice will make rice a larger part of the diet than chicken.

With chicken meal being after the rice, that food also has less chicken than rice. It then depends on what comes after. If after "Chicken, rice,.... comes Chicken meal, Turkey meal, fish meal, Chicken fat..... it is not so bad. If you follow "Chicken, rice, ... with, rice bran, brewers rice, corn, fish meal, potaotes, barley, Chicken fat....then its not as good as the first one. Way too many carbs listed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think I prefer my brand which has corn meal first, but does not have any other grains for fillers any where near the beginning. 

Corn Meal, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols [a source of Vitamin E] and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Lamb Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Chicken Liver Meal, Egg Product, Dried Cheese, Rice Flour, Dried Kelp Meal, Flax Seed Meal, Cod Liver Oil, Yeast Culture, Linoleic Acid, Lecithin, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Amino Acid Complex, Sodium Bicarbonate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Prayer, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Chloride, Manganese Sulfate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Ascorbic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B-6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Calcium Iodate, Yucca Schidigera Extract

The thing is it works, my dogs are healthy now, and gaining weight, their coats are good. I will go with it for now.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Selzer Questions*



selzer said:


> Which would be better:
> 
> "Chicken meal, rice, oatmeal, brown rice, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten meal, chicken fat, etc."
> 
> ...


 
Interesting question. I would ask what is the % of corn, chicken meal, chicken fat as well since the first ingredient is by weight. So if the ingredients before the fat are the majority and lets say it was 75% of the formula, then the corn could be anywhere from 37.5% or higher, as long as it weighed more than the chicken meal. so it could be 50% corn and 25% chicken meal. It could be 38% corn and 36.5% chicken meal. Formulation is a trade secret so we really don't know. Also, we don't know the other 25% after the chicken fat that could be livers or hearts or fish meals that would boost the % of the meat product and possibly make it higher in ratio to grain. If however, 50% of the product is corn or some other grain, you said rice above as the first ingredient, then even with the "after fat" ingredients, you would still have a grain heavy product. I would look at the % of protein to determine is the food higher in meat or higher in grains if you are concerned with grains vs. meats. 

That brings me to what I mentioned the other day - it may not really matter considering the product as a whole. If each ingredient is providing a specific benefit and a dog does well on it, then that would be a good food for the dog. And the person should go for it.

My dogs like the raw better than kibbles so even when we had to give kibble last night and for breakfast (conveniene and out of chicken!) we added freeze-dried lamb dinner on top. tonight they will have chicken wings and chicken quarters. I know my dogs love the raw meaty bones the best  Do what works best for your dog is what I say


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Selzer*



selzer said:


> I think I prefer my brand which has corn meal first, but does not have any other grains for fillers any where near the beginning.
> 
> Corn Meal, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols [a source of Vitamin E] and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Lamb Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Chicken Liver Meal, Egg Product, Dried Cheese, Rice Flour, Dried Kelp Meal, Flax Seed Meal, Cod Liver Oil, Yeast Culture, Linoleic Acid, Lecithin, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Amino Acid Complex, Sodium Bicarbonate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Prayer, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Chloride, Manganese Sulfate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Ascorbic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B-6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Calcium Iodate, Yucca Schidigera Extract
> 
> The thing is it works, my dogs are healthy now, and gaining weight, their coats are good. I will go with it for now.


Its a great food  My dogs did really good on it. - I would add the raw meaty bones at least a few days a week to really help scrub the teeth and gums.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I currently have all ten of mine on it and they are doing good. It is not the cheapest food but I have tried some solid gold and wellness and taste of the wild, and prarie raw instinct and was not all that happy with them, even the grain free stuff. 

I fed canidae for a couple of years, I am still buying Canidae grain free for my parents' dog, but I am thinking of having him switch to this stuff and see what happens. His coat is really crappy right now.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*RE: Selzer*



selzer said:


> I currently have all ten of mine on it and they are doing good. It is not the cheapest food but I have tried some solid gold and wellness and taste of the wild, and prarie raw instinct and was not all that happy with them, even the grain free stuff.
> 
> I fed canidae for a couple of years, I am still buying Canidae grain free for my parents' dog, but I am thinking of having him switch to this stuff and see what happens. His coat is really crappy right now.


Actually - if you take the metabolized energy in calories per kg and how much metabolized energy per day is needed compared to other food it really isn't that bad. I compared it to other foods on that level and I was pleasantly surprised at the value per day.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We have glistening coats on Orijen. You can get a great coat from Eukanuba too cause they know to add coat conditioners. I am still not convinced to feed my dogs primarily corn. I think I know how grains got in dog foods in the first place and it is not a good reason to feed them, IMO.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Samba*



Samba said:


> We have glistening coats on Orijen. You can get a great coat from Eukanuba too cause they know to add coat conditioners. I am still not convinced to feed my dogs primarily corn. I think I know how grains got in dog foods in the first place and it is not a good reason to feed them, IMO.


They use the same conditioners I believe: Fish oils / omegas / chickens and fat!  corn will help too with ALA (I hope I said that right!)

The funny thing I ran into was how Orijen was around 25% +/- on carbs and yet the Eukanuba Premium Performance 30/20 is about the same when you look at caloric distribution. So maybe Eukanuba uses less number of different meats but more of the single meats like chicken + fish meal. 

I know I've always been told not to feed by products - those are bad - well, what is a chicken frame? Something I would give as apart of my raw diet! :wild: Light bulb moment - it's not the pretty breast meat or meat without bones called "Chicken". That is a by product just like the trachea I feed as a snack! LOL


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

what food is this? 



selzer said:


> I think I prefer my brand which has corn meal first, but does not have any other grains for fillers any where near the beginning.
> 
> Corn Meal, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols [a source of Vitamin E] and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Lamb Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Chicken Liver Meal, Egg Product, Dried Cheese, Rice Flour, Dried Kelp Meal, Flax Seed Meal, Cod Liver Oil, Yeast Culture, Linoleic Acid, Lecithin, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Amino Acid Complex, Sodium Bicarbonate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Prayer, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Chloride, Manganese Sulfate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Ascorbic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B-6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Calcium Iodate, Yucca Schidigera Extract
> 
> The thing is it works, my dogs are healthy now, and gaining weight, their coats are good. I will go with it for now.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

What brand of dog food is this? maybe I missed it?? 



selzer said:


> I think I prefer my brand which has corn meal first, but does not have any other grains for fillers any where near the beginning.
> 
> Corn Meal, Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols [a source of Vitamin E] and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Lamb Meal, Menhaden Fish Meal, Chicken Liver Meal, Egg Product, Dried Cheese, Rice Flour, Dried Kelp Meal, Flax Seed Meal, Cod Liver Oil, Yeast Culture, Linoleic Acid, Lecithin, Salt, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Amino Acid Complex, Sodium Bicarbonate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Prayer, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Chloride, Manganese Sulfate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Ascorbic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B-6), Folic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Calcium Iodate, Yucca Schidigera Extract
> 
> The thing is it works, my dogs are healthy now, and gaining weight, their coats are good. I will go with it for now.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

*RE: FuryanGoddess*



FuryanGoddess said:


> what food is this?


Kumpi Pet Foods
Kumpi Dog Food Comparison Chart


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What is good is that none of my dogs are getting the nasty loose stools, and since the change in August no pools of bloody stool. In fact, to blood at all in the stool. 

This may not sound like anything good, but I was getting pools of bloody yuck with Canidae, and every other bag I was getting runny stool. 

That is gone now. Maybe it is from removing the middle man, maybe because I am getting fresher food that has been stored and shipped properly. Maybe it is the formula, I really do not know. 

I do know that I did not want to feed 4 of my lot one food, three another food, and three more a different food. I wanted one food that all ten would do well on. I have that, and it has corn. I have no increased itchiness, ear infections, etc. 

So I am going with my corn filled Kumpi.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Selzer,

Sad when you think about it - look what **** you went through just to get all your dogs straightened out.....trying this and that and being told to stay away from food with corn in it.....and a product that so many advise against because of the corn (and that is just one of many ingredients in that food) and the Kumpi brand is what helped your dogs. 

Glad you took a chance and I know your dogs are thanking you.


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