# Seconds thoughts with breeder



## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Excuse my lengthy post, but I have to ask the opinion of other people about this.
So I went to the breeder yesterday to see my puppy for the first time. As I was the last one to call (1,5 week ago), being only one puppy left, I didn't get to choose. I actually started to like the idea that I got the one that 'no one choose' (which is an exaggeration, because there are only five of them). 

If you see the pictures (which I hope has been uploaded correctly from my mobile phone) you'll see he's looking a little bit sad. The breeder said that it was mainly due to the vet visit they had the day before to get the last injections they needed. "Normally he's much more energetic", said the breeder. I have absolutely zero experience with dogs, so I believed him, saw no reason not to. The puppy was extremely sweet though. 

I'm starting to experience second thoughts after speaking with a professional breeder today (had to call him off) who proceeded to ask me a bunch of difficult question which I couldn't answer with certainty and it made me wonder if it is wise to buy a dog from a first time breeder (someone without credentials). Which I obviously knew before, but that was before my ADD impulsiveness kicked in and I jumped with enthusiasm after finding this one and left reason and logic in my other jacket.

Regarding this puppy, both parents have a genealogical tree and are tested for HD/ED (though I haven't seen it on paper). The father is a working dog from a good and reputable breeder, but couldn't trace the mother. The puppy's are staying in a wooden garden house behind the house where the owners live. They play a lot in the garden and from what I understood also have quite some interaction with the family. The breeder is doing everything according to the rules from what I could see. I did notice a strong unpleasant smell in the puppy's house though. The first thing I told my sister after leaving there was: I will have to bathe that poor thing the moment he gets home. 

To the few that made it through everything, what do you think? I should also mention that I have already paid 1/8 of the full price.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Cute puppy. Trust your instinct. 1/8 of the price is nothing compared to how much you will spend on the dog if he is healthy and has good temperament, not to mention how much you could spend if he has temperament issues or is unhealthy. 

If a puppy hasn't bounced back from visiting the vet the day before, knowing how short their memory/attention span is at that age, I would question the temperament of this puppy. I doubt it has anything to do with the vet visit. This puppy is probably shy or uncomfortable with new people, etc. I personally would walk away. You are in EU, you have access to some of the best breeders around. Do you your homework and get a great dog from a great breeder.

I don't like that the mothers pedigree is not traceable. Good luck!


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Henricus said:


> If you see the pictures (which I hope has been uploaded correctly from my mobile phone) you'll see he's looking a little bit sad. The breeder said that it was *mainly due to the vet visit they had the day before* to get the last injections they needed.


That's... ridiculous.



Henricus said:


> I'm starting to experience second thoughts


If you have any second thoughts, I say walk away. Any issues down the line, and you'll keep thinking back to this decision and second-guessing yourself. You should be 100% comfortable and confident in the breeder.



Henricus said:


> made me wonder if it is wise to buy a dog from a first time breeder (someone without credentials).


No, that is far from wise. Especially with a dog as serious as a GSD.



Henricus said:


> Regarding this puppy, both parents have a genealogical tree and are tested for HD/ED (though I haven't seen it on paper).


If it's not on paper, signed & dated, it doesn't exist. This applies to all agreements and promises in life.



Henricus said:


> To the few that made it through everything, what do you think? I should also mention that I have already paid 1/8 of the full price.


The puppy looks adorable and may very well turn out great, but there is more to buying from a breeder than the transaction. It's important for the breeder to be able to choose the right puppy for your lifestyle, dog handling experience, plans and expectations. Given that there's only one pup left and the breeder is inexperienced, I'd say there's a very low chance of "the right match" happening.

It's better to lose some money up front, pay more, etc. and end up with the right pup, than save attempt to save some money now and end up with problems down the line.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

eddie1976E said:


> Cute puppy. Trust your instinct. 1/8 of the price is nothing compared to how much you will spend on the dog if he is healthy and has good temperament, not to mention how much you could spend if he has temperament issues or is unhealthy.
> 
> If a puppy hasn't bounced back from visiting the vet the day before, knowing how short their memory/attention span is at that age, I would question the temperament of this puppy. I doubt it has anything to do with the vet visit. This puppy is probably shy or uncomfortable with new people, etc. I personally would walk away. You are in EU, you have access to some of the best breeders around. Do you your homework and get a great dog from a great breeder.
> 
> I don't like that the mothers pedigree is not traceable. Good luck!


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: He is a cutie but definitely trust your instinct. Dogs, especially puppies don't usually look sad unless they are depressed or ill. The breeder sounds like what we call a "Back yard breeder". Good luck. Let us know what you decide to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, some pups don't do vaccines well. They will be drowsy for a while. That wouldn't worry me too much. 

Puppies pee and poop a lot. But that is why the breeder has to clean the area a lot. If the puppy has been forced to lie in filth, it can lose the natural tendency toward cleanliness and this can make house training a chore. 

A litter of five pups peeing their hearts out on newspapers can be a bit ripe. But you have to trust your gut on that, or perhaps your nose. 

I am very concerned with the dude giving the impression that that bundle of fur has all the vaccines it will need. If it has had two sets of puppy shots, than it has been over-vaccinated, and most protocols require three sets of puppy shots in the least, with 3-4 weeks between them. 

You will lose the deposit you put down. That will benefit the breeder, but he might have told others not to come if he thought he had you. What you have to think of is that you will have this baby for 10-14 years hopefully. Waiting and getting one from a breeder you are not already leery of might make you less likely to think the worst every time the pup hiccups. 

Now is the time to say no, if you are going to say no. Taking him home for a few weeks, and you will fall in love and will not take him back, most likely. Can he be ill already? Yes. He could have parvo, but if the breeders are HD and ED testing, most likely their bitch was vaccinated for that, and it would be unlikely. Could he have a heart defect, or other problems? Yes. Sure. That is true of any puppy you will buy anywhere. 

In fact, the guaranty is more that your puppy will have health concerns, wherever it comes from. Which ones? We don't know. Could have skin problems, ear problems, digestive problems, structural problems, temperament problems, cancer. This puppy will break your heart. Sorry, whatever puppy you get from wherever will, at some point. 

Hopefully, with a good breeder you are limiting the likelihood of some things, and when issues arise, the breeder will not be so defensive that they blame it all on you, and don't want to hear it. A good breeder will tell you if they haven't heard of that before, and will help you get to the bottom of whatever. 

Good luck, whatever you choose to do.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

can you ask the breeder for his/her vet's name and number? Then follow through with a call.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> Actually, some pups don't do vaccines well. They will be drowsy for a while. That wouldn't worry me too much.
> 
> Puppies pee and poop a lot. But that is why the breeder has to clean the area a lot. If the puppy has been forced to lie in filth, it can lose the natural tendency toward cleanliness and this can make house training a chore.
> 
> ...



I agree with this. Pups that just had shots can certainly react and look depressed. If that is bothering you go back and see him again before you make your decision.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

I'd agree that you should go to the breeder feeling weary, planning on telling them you've changed your mind, but if you get there and the pup is energetic like the breeder told you he usually is, and he is friendly and social able (as much as can be expected from a GSD puppy) then maybe it was just the shots that had affected him. Also take a closer look at the area he is kept, now that you've already seen the dog once, perhaps it won't be as distracting and you can really look at the surroundings and decide if this is what you want.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Wow, thank you guys for the elaborate answer.

From what I've read on the internet it is quite normal indeed for the dog to feel a bit drowsy after his vaccination. So I don't feel bad about that, all the puppy's were a bit drowsy there. 

*@eddie1976E/ yuriy/ MythicMut*
I have to lose my second thoughts, or else it isn't a good choice. You're right. Losing 1/8 of the full price is indeed nothing compared to having better odds at buying a mentally and physically healthy dog. 

*@selzer *
I'm sorry, I didn't say it right. The dog had his last vaccination while with the breeder. He will need (if I recall it correctly) a few after that, but he'll be in my hands by then. I also don't think he has parvo, as the vaccinations are mandatory and I don't think their bitch didn't get any. 

*@zyppi*
I don't have to check with a vet, because the dogs (and other animals) are given a European passport by the vet when they are little. The breeder showed me the puppy's passport, and starting from 29th of december 2014 the regulations have been intensified here in Europe. So the passport can only be given _and filled out_ by a vet, with identification of the dog, chip information, vaccination etc. 
I'm pretty confident that this part is done correctly.  

*@llombardo/wags*
You are right. I don't have a car myself, a friend of mine is picking the dog up with me next week. But I will try to see if I can find someone to drive me there (it's a 1,5 hour drive). By doing this I can ask him to show me proof the parents have been checked by a vet and I can see if the puppy is more social/ energetic. 


Again, thanks guys for all the great input! I'll keep you posted on the development.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

Honestly I wouldn't go back to see the puppy if you have reservations. It's SO EASY to fall in love with puppies + lull yourself into thinking that you're making his life better and getting suckered in, in a way. 

There's a lot of that kind of mentality I see with people buying from backyard or not reputable breeders - oh I saved/rescued/upgraded the puppy so he now has a better life with me. 

IF you do go back, be prepared to just turn around and leave unless everything checks out 100%. Still see/hear/have a sense of those reservations you have? Turn around and walk away. 

Best of luck.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@creegh
I wouldn't be able to go there by myself, I am big softie with zero cabability of judging the situation at that moment.
So you're right.  

But I've just got of the phone with the father of a friend of mine, who himself has had a couple of dogs (including a Swiss spepherd), all from reputable breeders. I asked if he was willing to visit the breeder with me, because not only is he far more experienced than me, he also holds no interest in the dog for himself, so he'll be able to judge if it is a right call to buy it. He'll also be able to tell me if I'm thinking straight or just captivated by the dog. 

We're going there this Saturday. I'll post a summary of how that went with hopefully good news and some better photographs.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Update:

I've been to the breeder and this time I sat down with him and asked for all the papers. He showed me the X-rays of the mother with all the official documents signed by the vet: HD-a and ED free. He also showed her genealogical tree, signed by the official commission. Then he showed me official papers of the father (didn't have any medical papers, but then again, the dog isn't his). He showed me the European passport of "my" dog with the evidence of the microchip and the vaccines that the dog indeed had the day before I visited him. 
"My" dog was a lot more active looking in his eyes, social, and even toying around with his brother (the mother then corrected the two and bit one in the neck). He did have a strange walk, but it got better after some minutes. The breeder suspected that the mother handled him a bit harsh, but promised it was also new for him to and he would keep an eye on it and update me. 
He isn't a backyard breeder like I feared he was. He really has everything nicely done. The kennel is at his parents house, who themselves also had two German Shepherds and puppy's. So his father keeps an eye on everything.
They have learned to litter on a newspaper and have never littered on the carpet where they sleep. 

This was enough for me to trust him, mainly because my friends father also trusted everything there, and reassured me that it is quite common for puppy's to walk a bit strange sometimes. 

I'm picking the dog up next Friday, though I hope sooner because the other puppy's are leaving earlier.


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

Good luck with your new pup. Please post photos when you get him!


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Update 2

So.. I decided not to take the dog, here's why:
Yesterday evening I received an email from a reputable breeder (lots of likes on Facebook with people praising their service and dogs) telling me they had one 8 week old male puppy available for me and I was the first on the list for them to contact (I contacted them one month ago, but all puppy's were reserved already). They picked the prettiest and best dog for a professional breeder in the south of the Netherlands, they were going to use it for entering show competition. But because of some private issues the buyers were forced to cancel the reservation. 
The puppy is super social, growing up in the home of the breeders. They also feed him quality food. 
With this I will lose a bit of money, but it's better to be safe than sorry.
I'll post some pictures when I get him. This one below isn't very clear, but it gives an impression.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kool! Post pictures when you get him.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would still go look at the dogs before going ahead if you can. It is hard to go by word of mouth.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I will post them!

@wolfy dog
You're right, but after seeing a video today that they send me I am absolutely sure it's a wonderfully bred dog. 
Obviously, if I see something fishy there I'll refuse. But I'm not expecting that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am on a local GSD page and there are many breeders putting up litters, less than stellar in my opinion..Yet they always have a posse of supporters. Don't go by how many 'likes' or whatever on FB. Many people don't know what they don't know.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@onys'girl
True. To be honest, social media has so little value to me that I don't even have Facebook. I understand the psychology involved in group thoughts and group dynamics, so many of it can be a distorted truth. But having some credentials is always better than none. 
I've also looked their name up in the official magazine of the Dutch association of German Shepherds and there are a few dogs bred by them on the prize list (show). Lastly, I've looked through some albums of yearly meetings of dogowners who have a dog bred by them, looks like a fun day on the beach for the dogs. 
But still, I'll keep my eye out for anything fishy. Thanks for the input everyone!


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I've posted pictures!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/613858-8-5-week-old-madoc.html


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