# Looking for advice. This is a long one.



## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

I have an almost 4 y/o intact male working dog (czech lines). He has been my first dog ever. I have not visited this site since I reported my aggression issues with my dog about 2 years or so ago (if memory serves me correctly) after I spent a bunch of money with a "trainer" that the vet recommended to me which was an epic failure. So I got bad training right off the bat for a dog that had reactivity issues. I went back to reading books and the internet as I wasn't aware of any good trainers in my area. I heard about a trainer that had experience with working dogs and I went to see them only for them to tell me they wanted $2500 upfront cash with no guarantees, needless to say I thought that was outrageous, plus I did not like their arrogance/demeanor. So back to the internet I went feeling helpless. Found another trainer who specialized in service dogs an hour away and she basically couldn't help me. After Chief redirected on my wife (few scrapes nothing major but a redirection nonetheless, I finally contacted the breeder and got a trainer (Chief was likely 2-2.5 y/o at this point) who was 2 hours away and we tried to see her once a month . Our first session/assessment was good, she taught me to use the prong collar and I had Chief stay 2 weeks with her for obedience. I would say things improved a bit mostly because he had no obedience training prior. However, he really only improved in our household. It took me forever to overcome the stress of his reactivity that it was hard for us to train because we both were worked up and correcting him statrted to charge him up more. The second I correct before he has a chance to react it sets him off instead of quieting him up and these were the same results I had at the trainers so I kind of stopped driving two hours only to have mountains of stress. We did have some great results one session where he was in a fenced in area with other dogs and didnt pay them any attention which prooved he didnt have a dog aggression issue. Anyways most of our training has been around our house and yard as I figured I really cant take him anywhere until I at least have some control of him here. I have recently broken him on the sights and sounds of some of the neighbor dogs and neighbors working in the yard he still gets a little worked up but no "going off". Still dont take him on walks (which I feel horrible about but it is ALWAYS and awful experience). I have taken him to some parks/ fields with some success but he comes unglued on just about everything and will not focus on food or playing with me. He knows heel, sit, stay/place, lay down, leave it, and out as long as there are no other distractions. Now fast forward us to last weekend, we had a party at our house and he was doing awesome, we played ball and trained to drain energy before everyone got here and as people started arriving most of which he knew but there were a handful of people he never met, but showed no signs of stress discomfort, until my buddy showed up with his 12-13 year old daughter and newborn (I wasn't aware that kids were coming). Chief has met the 12-13 year old a few times with decent results except this time he started barking at her aggressively I was about 10 feet away prepping food and the second I heard him I grabbed him and he snapped and caught my one of my friends(luckily not the little girl) on the hand resulting in one stitch but it was a pretty deep tooth mark. I have felt horrible all week offered to pay for my friends hospital visit and so on but this has all been very sobering for me. I am wondering if I am just out of my league, I love this dog ( he can be super sweet) and feel that I have really tried and worked despite the loads of stress it has been trying to overcome all of this. It kills me the thought of rehoming him but my wife and I have talked about having kids in the next year or 2 ( we are 28-29 years old) and she doesnt want to use our kids as test dummies with this dog around which I cant say I blame her. I have a now almost 4 year old dog who still has all these reactivity issues (now obviously with children) and I feel like it is too late to pull him out of this and a new baby will only make things worse. I guess I am just wore out after 4 years of stress from this guy. I feel like a such a failure to both him and myself. I must admit I have always looked down on people who have rehomed as I view them as quitters, I believe when you accept a responsibility you must see it through but I cannot rob my wife and our parents of wanting to have children/grandchildren because I am so bullheaded/selfish and relectant to quit on this dog. I have not contacted my trainer yet as I am so embarrassed, she says he is a great dog so maybe I just dont really know what I am doing. Him and I have made some progress together but I feel like the time is running out. I guess I am posting here to put my thoughts down. Needless to say this week has been **** about the thought of getting rid of my boy. Hindsight is 20/20 and I would do so many things differently with the knowledge I have now. I am sure I have left some info out so if anyone has any questions or advice I will be happy to answer them.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

[sigh] Okay, this is NOT a stable dog, and all the training in the world is not going to change that. Here's how a stable dog acts:

A breeder I know was doing schutzhund training with one of her dogs. Somehow her toddler got away from her sitter, and wandered into the path of the dog, just as it was charging at the decoy. All amped up as the dog was, it stopped dead in its tracks so as not to hurt the child.

It sounds like you definitely got the short end of the stick when you picked this dog as your first dog. Czech dogs are mostly high-energy working dogs, and not a good choice for a first-time dog owner. However, my younger female is mostly Czech lines, and being into schutzhund, I've met a lot of Czech dogs. None of the ones I've met so far have behaved like this. A dog that gets amped up and redirects onto the handler, or another person when corrected is is not the dog for a first-time owner!

I think you should get rid of this dog before something worse happens. Next time, it might be the kid or the baby that gets bitten.

Certainly, the next time you have company over, the dog should be crated or put somewhere where it has no contact with the guests.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

You have a decision to make. Put in the time needed with a trainer to learn how to control your dog, or return him to the breeder. 

I know it's been 4 years. But based on your post, he has only really had 1-2 weeklong board and train and one session. Was there more? This is no where near enough. Especially as a first time dog owner. 

But if you are unwilling to put in the time and effort, then it might be safer to return him to the breeder.


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## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

Sunsilver, thank you for the advice and the story. I agree with you. I also dont think getting locked up all the time is a life for a dog either. When Chief is amped he does not stop until he is drug from the situation. If I was older without children it may be a different story but I/we are hardly at the beginning. I just dont know how I could cope with letting this dog and myself down. Maybe I was dealt a bad hand. He does respond to corrections when he is not amped up but correcting when amped make it worse most of the time. Every situation has varying results most not good. 

gsdsar I have been to probably 5-6 training sessions and he has been boarded 3 times. The first time was train the 2nd two were reinforcement. The 5 or 6 sessions I went to was merely to get him comfortable/under control with other dogs on leashes walking toward him. Mixed results on this. Nothing has really been "monumental" other than when we had him off leash at a training session in a pen with other dogs and he didnt get nasty with any of them until one of them approached me. I really do not have a problem with the work. It is when I work and work and work with not much improvement. My concern lies in that he is now almost 4, is this even correctable or is he too far gone.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

First off - rehoming a dog with problems is not easy. With a bite history, most responsible rescues will not take him, at 4 is probably too old to go to a LE program.

Perhaps contacting a K9 trainer to evaluate him and see if they will take him as a donation to a department - but that is just a thought and as no one here can really make any kind of evaluation of his temperament, it make not be feasible.

You can continue to monitor him, work with him, contain him when people visit and keep him until your life style (ie kids) changes and then make a decision as to control or euthanasia if you feel he is dangerous. 

I am not far from Ohio line, and know some trainers in Ohio....I will PM you with some names 


Lee


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## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

wolfstraum (Lee),
Thank you for the advice and I appreciate the recommendations. The trainer I did get in contact with that is 2 hours away was referred by my breeder and I am pretty sure the breeder would take him back (per words from the trainer). He has never redirected on me just to clarify.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bluntly 

You should not have this dog.

Disastrous combination , an unstable dog , and a person who doesn't manage the situation.

I know you say a lot about your efforts -- But WHAT were you thinking having an unstable reactive dog milling around with full exposure to the company you invited .

Don't care if he knew most of them . Russian roulette -- sooner or later something will provoke that dog and it could be a very innocent , normal , human thing like arms flailing when laughing , quick movement , walking toward the dog .

You were lucky more didn't happen.

You are stressed to the eyeballs . That does no one any good . Not even the dog.

That dog rules the roost . He should have been put away - in a crate.

I would never ask a vet for a trainer reference . Your breeder should have been your first contact to vent your problem to have them on board for a problem-fix or referral. 
I would have given feed-back to that vet that who recommended the trainer .

Interested to know - why was it an epic fail . What did they do?

the other person you approached offered no guarantees . He can only do his best . He isn't fixing a car . The dog may complete his course and do well with him , but that doesn't mean that the results are permanent. You may not be able to maintain the management and the requirement relationship with the dog and then things back slide.

You said "(Chief was likely 2-2.5 y/o at this point) ......... Our first session/assessment was good, she taught me to use the prong collar "

but it isn't about equipment -- the entire relationship structure was wrong , and with the wrong kind of dog 

"and I had Chief stay 2 weeks with her for obedience."

did they experience the dog coming up the leash , handler red-directs . I would say so . They should have told you.

and then you say " I would say things improved a bit mostly because he had no obedience training prior"

A 2 1/2 year dog , with no training - who has rank issues and is reactive and has probably been babied and indulged and treated like a precious snowflake -- 

maybe that guy that wanted $2,500 knew the sweat equity that he had to invest in the dog .

go back to the breeder.

"After Chief redirected on my wife (few scrapes nothing major but a redirection nonetheless, I finally contacted the breeder"

You can not just re-home the dog. You can not pass on your problem. 

Breeder needs to know what they are producing .
At the very least they need to wake up and be a better judge of when evaluating the dogs , the litters, and making sure that their animals are placed better . That for the sake of the new owners and for the life and welfare of their dogs.

As wolfstraum says often , there are many breeders who don't live with their dogs . That doesn't mean that they lounge on the soft furniture -- but they have to know how are these dogs that they are pairing up for breedings in normal situations --- not just in the kennel or the sport field. Too many have no idea and that extends to all breeders.

not only that but the working Czech lines -- these are not "made" for fluffy pets -- As a culture there isn't much "pettish" experience , and not of GSD . Dogs , the genetics, tend to reflect the societies that developed them . That is a result of selection for traits . 

Maybe the breeder will take the dog back (probably not) .

You have to think what you are able to do for the dog for him to have a half-decent life . You can not put any one else at risk . Liability goes to you . 

In any case you can not be a martyr to the dog .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum said 
"Perhaps contacting a K9 trainer to evaluate him and see if they will take him as a donation to a department - but that is just a thought and as no one here can really make any kind of evaluation of his temperament, it make not be feasible."

It was a thought but the dog's age and lacking any foundation in handler bond needed from a k9 partner , and the dogs reactivity and
"I have taken him to some parks/ fields with some success but he comes unglued on just about everything and will not focus on food or playing with me. He knows heel, sit, stay/place, lay down, leave it, and out as long as there are no other distractions"

does not make him sound like a good candidate. Far too much to fix.
Too much time and money (man hours) to play around with something that most likely won't pass certification - and if he does there is a time span of , what, 2 years of service .

nice thought though.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Totally agree with Carmen. I didn't want to be so harsh, but she echoes a lot of what I was thinking after reading your post. 

WHAT were you thinking to let this dog be around your guests? My dogs are stable, and have no bite history, but if I am having guests over that don't know dogs, they are put away, for their safety, and the guests'. You never know what someone might do, or how the dog will react. And it's not cruel to crate the dog, just COMMON SENSE!

The number of hours of training this dog has had doesn't make sense, either. You need to start to train a dog as a puppy, not when it's 2 1/2 years old. Most people take their dogs to puppy classes as soon as they've had a full set of vaccinations. They are socialized with other dogs, and start to learn basic manners. 

Sending a dog away for training is a great way to waste your money, because YOU are the one that needs to be trained, just as much as the dog needs the training! You can learn a certain amount from books, it's just not the same as hands-on classes with an experienced trainer. For instance, how and when to reward or correct your dog is extremely important, and that's hardly something you can learn from a book.


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## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

Carmspack and sunsilver. I do appreciate the feedpack. Not too harsh by any means, in fact I appreciate it, I have thick skin, which is why I am almost 4 years into this. I am bullheaded in thinking I could change this and make this work. Carmspack, to answer your question the first trainer was a positive only guy and Chief would get amped on triggers and he would try to coerce him into focusing on him (making matters worse). I was likely too soft and not disciplined enough on Chief in the beginning which is why I am in this mess but it doesn't change the fact that this is where I am at.


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## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

Carmspack,

"Maybe the breeder will take the dog back (probably not) .

You have to think what you are able to do for the dog for him to have a half-decent life . You can not put any one else at risk . Liability goes to you . 

In any case you can not be a martyr to the dog ."

Are you in more words implying the dog should be euthanized? serious question.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

LinneK9 said:


> Carmspack and sunsilver. I do appreciate the feedpack. Not too harsh by any means, in fact I appreciate it, I have thick skin, which is why I am almost 4 years into this. I am bullheaded in thinking I could change this and make this work. Carmspack, to answer your question the first trainer was a positive only guy and Chief would get amped on triggers and he would try to coerce him into focusing on him (making matters worse). I was likely too soft and not disciplined enough on Chief in the beginning which is why I am in this mess but it doesn't change the fact that this is where I am at.


the first trainer was a positive only guy and Chief would get amped on triggers and he would try to coerce him into focusing on him (making matters worse). 

bully dog -- not guideable - no handler interest -- total "attitude" dog who needed to be taken down a peg or two - not by violence , but by calm , clear , determined , authority - you ain't going win this one over me - 

he just wasn't the dog for you . 

lol - you know there is another thread going on --- bullheaded or close minded . 
good fodder to transport this one over to that thread


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If the breeder will take the dog back - that is the best scenerio. Perhaps they have a place for him or they can make that call if he is unstable and dangerous ..... 

Carmen works with LE much more than I do.....I just know that not every department can afford a young green dog and just perhaps someone could work with him....PERHAPS


Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

LinneK9 said:


> Carmspack,
> 
> "Maybe the breeder will take the dog back (probably not) .
> 
> ...


Is there a remedy? 
You can not pass on a liabiity.

You ask a serious question and I will give you a serious answer -- and that is that it might be the best solution .

at this point you can't take the dog off property . 
you are stressed to the hairy eyeballs . 
the dog is impacting on the quality and possibly the quantity of your own life . 
a case of diminishing returns . 
stress is so damaging ---- mentally and physiologically 
the dog may live another 5 years -- but you may stress yourself into 
shaving 10 years --- 

see if wolfstraum's recommended trainer can give you a good evaluation and prognosis for the future of this relationship that you have with this dog.

in any case the breeder needs to know --- they need to know what they are producing and how they are placing dogs


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Training should have started as soon as he came home, and training never ends too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> If the breeder will take the dog back - that is the best scenerio. Perhaps they have a place for him or they can make that call if he is unstable and dangerous .....
> 
> Carmen works with LE much more than I do.....I just know that not every department can afford a young green dog and just perhaps someone could work with him....PERHAPS
> 
> ...


Lee - he wouldn't even be a consideration with the depts that I provide for and they train and certify for US agencies as well .

Age .
Temperament. The dog might have gun fire issues .
He is described as reactive -- hasn't been in the "bigger world"
might handle traffic and commotion and emotionally charged situations poorly.
may not travel well - so many questions 
we don't know about his orthopedics -- hips and elbows
Liability ---

now if there had been a bail out when the dog was one year - 18 months things MIGHT have been different

The breeder should have been much more involved . Should have had a look at the dog and the owner -- maybe reviewed her decisions -- helped the guy out by taking dog and maybe offering the dog for evaluation for work ---- and replacing the dog with something more suitable.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

yes Carmen - I understand that totally 

I also know that many small towns in Ohio are pulling dogs out of shelters of unknown ages and there are quite a few making it through certification - it IS a longshot - I agree.... 

also agree that something has to be done for both the OP and the dog....but he has to be 110% sure that if it si his only responsible option to let the dog go humanely if he cannot keep and manage him without fear and tremendous stress on his family unit.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here - also we have dogs in shelters tested and if there is a possibility they are trained and have to meet the same rigorous certification requirements . (including orthopedics - the first hurdle)

this is a good thing . Some of those dogs might have ended up where they were because they had energy to burn and only needed a good outlet . 
Some dogs make good working dogs .
Seen quite a few of them. 

If the dog bit and punctured the man's hand (requiring a stitch up) then there is a hospital record of the bite .
That means that the owner knows the risk and has to take extra care in his management because if it happens again then there are consequences.
Thank god that the incident was minimized and the girl wasn't targeted . Someone had quick reflexes.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

A trainer says he's a great dog. So someone who should know, see's something there. Here's a couple things to think about. For a lot of dogs, routine, structure, everything being predictable in their view is important for living with them. Walks, exercise, training, try being very direct with all of them. Try avoiding things for now where you're going to be fighting him because it sounds like that's whats become your routine.

Try taking him somewhere where there's no one around for a for a fast, brisk walk with a few breaks to do little sniffing, marking and then back to the walk. Look for the chance to praise him doing things you want and keep him at a distance from things that are going to bother him and put you back in the position of trying to stop or correct him for it.

Bring him back home and put him away to relax. Let what was good sink in a little. The other thing I'd do is management. I wouldn't keep him out at parties. I'd have a place to secure him away from where he's going to be putting any thought into who's over. He's going to know people are over, but you don't want him to ever be in a position of trying to decide whether this person or that is acceptable on his property. Out of sight, secure, let him learn to relax when people are there.

I wouldn't put your wife in a position of ever having to stop him from doing something. I'd do everything possible to manage things to where every minute she's around him, is calm and positive. Someone comes to the door, she cheerfully lets him out the back door. Things like that. 

Its not that you're out of your league, they just aren't always going to be what you expected or what you wanted.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

A trainer says he's a great dog. 

I reread the original post 3 times again and I can not see any trainer saying he is a great dog.
There was one trainer that showed to OP how to use a pinch collar and that made a bit of a positive change.

IF there was such a person then give the dog to them !


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> A trainer says he's a great dog.
> 
> I reread the original post 3 times again and I can not see any trainer saying he is a great dog.
> There was one trainer that showed to OP how to use a pinch collar and that made a bit of a positive change.
> ...


From the op:


> I have not contacted my trainer yet as I am so embarrassed, she says he is a great dog so maybe I just dont really know what I am doing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> From the op:


looking for that now


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## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

Carmspack, there is no hospital record of the bite. The guy is one of my best friends and did not make record. I do believe the trainer see's something in him and I still think he has potential given his age. Maybe I didn't give him or myself enough credit I broke him out of serious reacting to the neighbor dogs/sounds in about 2 weeks training every single day mostly with engaging activities like throwing the ball or asking him for a stick (loves sticks) before he has the opportunity to react his tail flags but no serious reacting. I did this in my own attempt to see if I could make him listen through a more "balanced" approach as strictly positive and strictly aversive gave no results or very slow progress.


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## LinneK9 (Aug 18, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> A trainer says he's a great dog. So someone who should know, see's something there. Here's a couple things to think about. For a lot of dogs, routine, structure, everything being predictable in their view is important for living with them. Walks, exercise, training, try being very direct with all of them. Try avoiding things for now where you're going to be fighting him because it sounds like that's whats become your routine.
> 
> Try taking him somewhere where there's no one around for a for a fast, brisk walk with a few breaks to do little sniffing, marking and then back to the walk. Look for the chance to praise him doing things you want and keep him at a distance from things that are going to bother him and put you back in the position of trying to stop or correct him for it.
> 
> ...


Thank you Steve!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a dog for years that had to be managed around strangers, but he was never aggressive toward dogs or family, or most people. If he didn't like someone, he tried to bite them. I was experienced with GSDs when I owned him and still would never do that to myself again.

It's not a bad thing to give up a dog. I have no doubt you made mistakes, but it would not matter if you had a more forgiving dog. If you want children, either wait until they are older or start with a different breed. Learn to train and to understand dog behavior, then get recommendations here from breeders and experienced handlers when you get another German Shepherd.

I have never given up a dog and would find it hard to do so, but in this case, if I was in your shoes, I would give the dogs back to the breeder and not waste another minute feeling badly about it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay finally found it "I have not contacted my trainer yet as I am so embarrassed, she says he is a great dog "

almost at the very end of the opening post.

no where else had "great dog" been mentioned .

I was just trying to keep the bushel of other trainers straight and organized , the vet referred epic fail, the service dog trainer that couldn't help her , the trainer willing to take $2,500 but no guarantees -- the latter two probably honest in saying they couldn't effect changes . 

So maybe that high-on-the-dog should be given an option on taking the dog -- then see how great they think he is .

ONE trainer who said the dog was great (did they?) , who you say "made SOME progress" with might be the trainer hoping to string you along for more training sessions -- or -might be because YOUR ego won't allow any other solution . " I am so bullheaded/selfish and relectant to quit on this dog.

I know you are asking what the options are and what experienced people might do -- but you have your answer -- even though you are stressed , every experience you have with the dog is awful , not awesome, awful , and now a liability and just you wait --- friction with your wife - who wants and deserves a calm and safe house - not run by a dog who cramps your social life and may bite her , you, your guests.

do you know what stress does to your mojo -- lol-- look into antioxidants ---- now .

so without meaning you specifically -- this whole thread is like watching a remake of a familiar TV program , updated with new actors.

this is exactly the cycle of many threads with this topic . At the end - aw shucks the dog isn't so bad and maybel it is my fault and we'll see ... 

decisions are tough . You guys are young . Don't ruin your future over a dog . 
He may not be wired right .

I don't believe he is great . Sorry , I have experienced some truly great dogs. And this boy is not at all like them.

go to that trainer - go to that breeder -


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

LinneK9, it sounds like you love this dog. How does your wife feel about him? Is she afraid of him now? I agree with LuvShepherds, if you want children, this isn't the right dog for you. It almost sounds like you've gone through bits and spurts of trying to have him trained and in between he was able to do as he had been doing. A lack of consistency makes it even more difficult to train or work with a dog. At the current time it sounds like this is a dog that has to be managed and I'm not sure that's what you want from your dog. I would seriously consider talking to your breeder and returning him. I'd reread what LuvShepherds said and follow her advice.


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