# How much should I charge for puppies?



## german_shepherdlover

Hello everyone!  My name is, Megan. My fiance and I bought a German Shepherd puppy named Snickers. She is now One year and 6 months old. She is registered with the AKC and is Black and tan. We recently decided to breed her to my cousin's dog named Jeger. Jeger, is a highly trained police dog and my cousin is a police officer. Jeger is solid Black and 4 years old. He and my cousin are still currently working together on the police department. The police department purchased Jeger from Hungary from a well known breeder for 12,000 dollars and they gave ownership to my cousin. Jeger is also double registered with the AKC and the Magyarorszagi Nemet Juhaszkutya Klub in Hungary. We also have four generation pedigrees for both Snickers and Jeger. None of us have ever bred German Shepherds and have no idea how much to charge for the puppies!  Given the information above, can anyone tell us how much they think we should charge for the puppies??????


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## Chris Wild

Are either of the parents certified for hips and elbows? I'm guessing your female is not as she is not yet old enough for OFAs. IMO, at a year and a half of age she is also not mature enough mentally or physically to be bred. I would wait at least a year, and get OFAs in the meantime.

Any sort of performance titles or certificate on your female?

Honestly, without at least having health clearances on BOTH parents, the pups wouldn't be worth any more than the typical newspaper/Craigslist ad breeding of a couple hundred dollars.


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## Jax08

$0

So the public financed the purchase of this dog that you are going to use to breed?

Do NOT breed a 1 1/2 yr old with no health clearances and no knowledge of breeding or how to analyze pedigrees to make sure you don't end up with genetic messes. 

If you really are interested in breeding her then get her trained, trialed and prove she is breed worthy. Find a mentor that can teach you how to choose a proper mating so you have puppies worthy of the breed.


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## msvette2u

I'd agree. Maybe $300-400 each. 

Be sure to deworm them starting at 2 weeks old, every 2 weeks. Vaccinate at 6-8 weeks. If you don't do those things then you don't have a right, really, to even ask that much.


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## german_shepherdlover

Yes the have both had health clearances. Jeger had to have them done because he was shipped here from Hungary and its a requirment when being purchased for police work. As for the female dog, My fiance and his father both work at the Ottumwa Vetrinary Clinic. Also I am currently taking the pre vetrinary courses because I am going to school to be a vet! Since my fiance and his father they work at the vet my fiance and I get free health exams all the time. She also gets groomed there frequently for free as well. My female has had her hips xrayed and every health check up you can imagine. She is all up to date on all of her shots and has excellent hips the vet said. I also have the xrays for both dogs and all the vet records for both as well


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## Jax08

How could she have health clearances when they won't do official hip xrays for OFA's before 2 years old?


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## msvette2u

She can't be OFA'ed until she's 2yrs. old is what I think they mean.

Do you have pedigrees for both dogs? Can you post them here?


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## wolfstraum

Most police departments have a rule against breeding the K9's....

As others have said, to be a responsible breeder, you need to learn more about the breed, the pedigrees, the different types of GSDs....what works being bred together and what doesn't.....you also need to understand the risks to your female, and the costs in possible veterinary care prior and during the pregnancy, and the whelping process....these costs can run into thousands of dollars for the owner of the female. Are you financially prepared to do an emergency surgery on teh female if something goes wrong? Are you prepared to hand raise 6 or 10 puppies who need round the clock care if your female dies? 

This site has tons of threads with good information that will help you understand the risks of breeding, the goals of breeding, and how to be a responsible breeder. You have a young female, so plenty of time to learn before you do any breeding......around here "Back yard breeder" is a very derogatory term....the opposite of a responsible breeder, so I think you need to understand what is involved with breeding before making any decisions to have a litter.

There are alot of nice people here who will try to help you understand why it is not good to be a BYB - and how to help you become a responsible breeder - jumping into it by breeding a young female wtihout credentials for a few hundred dollars is not going to be perceived as a good thing.

Lee


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## Lucy Dog

$100 maybe. I guess whatever is enough to cover vet bills and food for the puppies while they're in your care. I wouldn't pay a penny more than that.



Jax08 said:


> So the public financed the purchase of this dog that you are going to use to breed?


Yeah... that strikes a bit of a nerve.


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## Jax08

Two very knowledgeable and highly respected breeders, Wildhaus and Wolfstraum, have spoken. Not sure anything else needs to be said.


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## wolfstraum

Are your fiance and his father veterinarians??? 

Lee


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## DaniFani

Shame on you for breeding a dog bought and paid for by everyone's taxes, you figured "sweet, I have a $10,000 (mmhmm) un-neutered gsd...time to breed and cash in." You are not going to find many here in support of what you are doing. Most would call you a byb. I know this is harsh...and I wouldn't care as much if you weren't breeding a k9 police dog. You should be showing/titling your dog to prove it's breed worthiness. You are breeding because, what? You are trying to become a vet? Pre-vet courses means you haven't even applied to vet school yet...so you are in your under-grad, breeding GSD's willy nilly?! The fact that you didn't even know that she can't be OFA'd until after 2 years old...are you kidding me!? Alright, need to get off this thread before I say something I'll regret. Just....shame on you.


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## german_shepherdlover

I am replying due to my recent post so nobody else gets confussed. Both dogs are in good health. They are both up to date on all of their vaccinations, tests, and exams. Also they have both had xrays and exams peformed on their hips, elbows ect. We have the xrays and all the shot vaccinations. If you must know both of them are microchiped as well. They also have had dental check ups, heart worm check ups. Everything you can imagine. As I said before my fiance and his father both work at a vet so my female gets all the exams and check ups for free. I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all. Now that I have cleared that, I am just wondering how much to price the puppies for when my female is ready to breed??? Considering they are both reigestered and have had all their vaccinations, xrays, health check ups ect...Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time


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## Jax08

german_shepherdlover said:


> I am replying due to my recent post so nobody else gets confussed. Both dogs are in good health. They are both up to date on all of their vaccinations, tests, and exams. Also they have both had xrays and exams peformed on their hips, elbows ect. We have the xrays and all the shot vaccinations. If you must know both of them are microchiped as well. They also have had dental check ups, heart worm check ups. Everything you can imagine. As I said before my fiance and his father both work at a vet so my female gets all the exams and check ups for free. I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all. Now that I have cleared that, I am just wondering how much to price the puppies for when my female is ready to breed??? Considering they are both reigestered and have had all their vaccinations, xrays, health check ups ect...Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time


None of this matters...at all. Your dog is to young and you don't ahve the proper training or health clearances. None of this says your dog is breed worthy. That fact that you don't know this says you shouldn't be breeding. A vet, or people that "work at a vet" would know about OFA's and would certainly discourage random breeding of dogs. 

And your original question was answered...several times. These will be nothing more than BYB puppies that won't be sought after for any reason. They are virtually worthless in a monetary sense.

And while your cousin may have possession of the male dog, I highly doubt a police department signed over a 12,000 dog's ownership when the public financed that purchase thru tax money and various other fundraising methods. I have to wonder if the department knows and condones this.


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## german_shepherdlover

Also I didn't want to tell my whole life story, but to clear some more things up. If you read my post before the police department gave rights to my cousin. I didn't think I would have to go in depth about this either but here it goes. My cousin then purchased jeger for 2,500 dollars from the police department. We also have a typed and signed letter for that. Him and jeger still work for the police department but jeger is owned by my cousin. He purchased him for 2,500 dollars so all rights are signed to my cousin.


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## MarkMulder

german_shepherdlover said:


> I am replying due to my recent post so nobody else gets confussed. Both dogs are in good health. They are both up to date on all of their vaccinations, tests, and exams. Also they have both had xrays and exams peformed on their hips, elbows ect. We have the xrays and all the shot vaccinations. If you must know both of them are microchiped as well. They also have had dental check ups, heart worm check ups. Everything you can imagine. As I said before my fiance and his father both work at a vet so my female gets all the exams and check ups for free. I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all. Now that I have cleared that, I am just wondering how much to price the puppies for when my female is ready to breed??? Considering they are both reigestered and have had all their vaccinations, xrays, health check ups ect...Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time



Well I've been looking for GSD breeders to get a puppy for about 2 months now, and I can't find a single puppy below $3000. So hopefully you charge less than them.

Maybe less people would resort to buying byb/craigslist puppies if those breeders charged a bit less than the down payment of my car.


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## wolfstraum

x-rays mean NOTHING unless OFA or the SV certifies them....they are always just someone's opinion....

There is more to choosing a breeding pair than grooming or dental care or heartworm checks!!! Those are the parameters defining good pet ownership...not credentials to become a breeder!

Breeding a pet female withOUT OFA CERTIFICATION and some type of proven value to the integrity of the breed is not responsible breeding....It sounds like you are a very very good pet owner....but there is a wide chasm between pet ownership and responsible breeding....that is what everyone is trying to point out - some more politely than others! BYB pups are a dime a dozen....and cheap...and disposable in many homes because they are cheap...because knowlegeable buyers do not BUY BYB puppies....if you want to be a responsible breeder - then put some energy and time into learning about the breed....being defensive is not necessary....people are trying to help because we are all so very very very sad at the constant barrage of emails, posts, threads, facebook photos of BYB dogs on death row everywhere in this country!

Lee


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## DaniFani

german_shepherdlover said:


> I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all.


......I have taken all the pre-reqs to get into vet school...as well as med school...pt school...nursing school...they are all the same. I must have missed the course on proper treatment of breeding dogs and getting them vaccinations.:wild:

You've been told how much you should charge, you haven't proven anything about the dogs, other than that at this immature age they are healthy and that one was bought and paid for by the govt and you are trying to cash in on some money. I wouldn't pay more than it cost to adopt these dogs, but I'm sure you'll find some uneducated buyers that have no qualms with your breeding standards.


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## mandiah89

german_shepherdlover said:


> I am replying due to my recent post so nobody else gets confussed. Both dogs are in good health. They are both up to date on all of their vaccinations, tests, and exams. Also they have both had xrays and exams peformed on their hips, elbows ect. We have the xrays and all the shot vaccinations. If you must know both of them are microchiped as well. They also have had dental check ups, heart worm check ups. Everything you can imagine. As I said before my fiance and his father both work at a vet so my female gets all the exams and check ups for free. I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all. Now that I have cleared that, I am just wondering how much to price the puppies for when my female is ready to breed??? Considering they are both reigestered and have had all their vaccinations, xrays, health check ups ect...Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time


You have got to be kidding me right? You only say they have had xrays that does not mean that they have been OFA cert. Your female is still too young to be bred. So what if your fiance and his father work at a vet clinic what do they do? Mop the floor? And what does them being microchiped have to do with them breeding or affecting the puppies? You need to wait till she is over 2 years old have her OFA cert have the male OFA as well... Make sure you trial her or show her get some titles behind her to prove that she is a perfect example of the breed and do more research on the breed and see what it takes to be a reputable breeder!
If you are not going to do any of that, then to answer your question somewhere between $100 and $300


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## martemchik

german_shepherdlover said:


> I am replying due to my recent post so nobody else gets confussed. Both dogs are in good health. They are both up to date on all of their vaccinations, tests, and exams. Also they have both had xrays and exams peformed on their hips, elbows ect. We have the xrays and all the shot vaccinations. If you must know both of them are microchiped as well. They also have had dental check ups, heart worm check ups. Everything you can imagine. As I said before my fiance and his father both work at a vet so my female gets all the exams and check ups for free. I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all. Now that I have cleared that, I am just wondering how much to price the puppies for when my female is ready to breed??? Considering they are both reigestered and have had all their vaccinations, xrays, health check ups ect...Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time


You just described 99% of GSDs that I know. Well taken care of dogs. Dogs that live in homes where people can afford shots, people care enough to x-ray them, people care enough to give them Hartguard, people that just generally care about the health of their PET.

Health isn't their health today, or tomorrow, or the next week. It's their GENETIC health, which you have no idea about because you don't know what anything in their pedigree means. You don't know the kinds of hips their parents had, their grandparent's had, ect.

You haven't trained your dog to do any kind of work that proves they are above and beyond a standard pet. Everything you describe is coming from you, a biased evaluator that doesn't really know how to compare your dog to the others out there.

Charge just enough to cover your costs of raising this litter until it is 8 weeks old. So since all vet care for you is free...give the dogs away for free. Maybe $10 just to cover the extra cost of food per pup.


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## qbchottu

MarkMulder said:


> Maybe less people would resort to buying byb/craigslist puppies if those breeders charged a bit less than the down payment of my car.


If you knew what went into producing QUALITY dogs, you would realize that most breeders barely break even if they do it right...

I spend 300-400$ a WEEK just on gas to drive to my training clubs, shows/trials, and to parks/fields to train/track. That doesn't even factor in training and helper fees, equipment, show/trial entry costs, handler fees, hotel costs, travel, vetting, food, meds, etc. Now add in time, and physical/mental investment on top of that, time away from work/family/etc, personal sacrifice....then you start to realize WHY those fees are charged. If you knew what went into it, you would not be so cynical about costs for good dogs. 

Also FYI, you can get good working pups for 1k-2k and good showlines for under 2k (even cheaper if you want a long coat) so where are you getting this 3k price?


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## msvette2u

So. The Police Department gave him a 10k dog for $2500?

Are you trying to get back the purchase price of sire and dam??

Certainly a non-OFA'ed bitch's puppies are not worth more than $300-400. 
And who will want them? Not anyone looking to get a well-bred dog or they'll go to a breeder who does health tests, so that kinda leaves Kijiji and Craigslist (which is against the terms of use on CL) to sell them.

Or a sign in your yard.

You'll be a backyard breeder, still.

Yours will be the type puppies I see advertised for $800-1000, and then a few weeks later, the price drops. As the puppies turn 12 weeks, the price drops even more. Puppies are given away (to get rid of them, puppies are MESSY!) and even dropped off to pounds or turned over to rescues, but not if there's still a dime to be made on them.

If your only question here is "how much can I sell these little gems for!?" then you're breeding for ALL the wrong reasons.


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## german_shepherdlover

Thank you wolstraum for you information it was very helpful. I like how you were polite and considerate unlike some of the other people on here. I just said we recently decided we want to breed them. I didn't say I wanted to breed them this instant. My dog isn't even in heat. Too many people were rude and jumped to conclusions. Thank you so much for helping me and giving me some helpful information to research so I don't become a byb. Thank You so much! I appreciate it!


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## DaniFani

I am seriously so up in arms about a retired?? Police dog being bred that I am ready to call every police department in Iowa to ask/make sure they are aware things like this are happening. BYBing is one thing, but to do it with a dog that was bought and purchased (i don't care if your cousin has rights now) for the purpose of police work (and now isn't, which means either something wasn't right temperament-wise, drive-wise, etc....further proving this dog shouldn't be bred) and is now being turned into a byb stud turns my stomach....

*EDIT* I realize how harsh my post is, but this just takes BYBing to a new level in my eyes. Maybe I need to take a chill pill...but ARGH


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## martemchik

german_shepherdlover said:


> Also I didn't want to tell my whole life story, but to clear some more things up. If you read my post before the police department gave rights to my cousin. I didn't think I would have to go in depth about this either but here it goes. My cousin then purchased jeger for 2,500 dollars from the police department. We also have a typed and signed letter for that. Him and jeger still work for the police department but jeger is owned by my cousin. He purchased him for 2,500 dollars so all rights are signed to my cousin.


This would never happen. Sorry, I just don't believe it. This pretty much makes your "cousin's dog" a private citizens dog that is now running around your town as a police dog. Your cousin would have all liability on him (don't know why he'd want that) and would be liable for any mistake that dog makes. Also...you're telling me the police department just took a 9500 wash on this dog? For no reason at all but to give your cousin breeding rights?


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## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> This would never happen. Sorry, I just don't believe it. This pretty much makes your "cousin's dog" a private citizens dog that is now running around your town as a police dog. Your cousin would have all liability on him (don't know why he'd want that) and would be liable for any mistake that dog makes. Also...you're telling me the police department just took a 9500 wash on this dog? For no reason at all but to give your cousin breeding rights?


You're right, it makes no sense...Police K9s are actually officers of the law and property of the PD they work for. For liability and other reasons, I'm sure...


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## MarkMulder

qbchottu said:


> Also FYI, you can get good working pups for 1k-2k and good showlines for under 2k (even cheaper if you want a long coat) so where are you getting this 3k price?


Every breeder that I've found within 150 miles of Los Angeles charges at least $3000, up to $4500. I suppose the prices here are inflated.


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## carmspack

what ? "The police department purchased Jeger from Hungary from a well known breeder for 12,000 dollars and they gave ownership to my cousin" and then "Him and jeger still work for the police department but jeger is owned by my cousin. He purchased him for 2,500 dollars so all rights are signed to my cousin. " ??

so who is liable in an active aggression arrest???

someone needs to be accountable to the taxpayers for this .

for all the checks you have done - it still does not mean that your female (pedigree please) and that male (pedigree please) are a good combination . At all.


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## qbchottu

MarkMulder said:


> Every breeder that I've found within 150 miles of Los Angeles charges at least $3000, up to $4500. I suppose the prices here are inflated.


There are LOTS of good breeders that charge less than that and can ship to you. Ask for recommendations based on your needs and you will get good leads. To say there is nothing under 3k is absolutely incorrect.


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## Jax08

wolfstraum said:


> ....people are trying to help because we are all so very very very sad at the constant barrage of emails, posts, threads, facebook photos of BYB dogs on death row everywhere in this country!
> 
> Lee


And just recently I've seen two very well bred dogs in shelters that have gone to the wrong home, not understanding a working line dog, and it won't be a pretty ending for them. It makes me physically ill.

If this dog is a working line dog as I suspect, you can't just breed and expect to successfully place them in pet homes. 

THere is another thread started a few minutes ago too...and the same advice should be given here....

find a mentor, learn what the breed should be, learn how to successfully match pedigrees to add to the breed, train your dog, find a club and see more of the dogs...you may decide on your own that while your dog is nice, she isn't breedworthy, many have before you!


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## llombardo

wolfstraum said:


> BYB pups are a dime a dozen....and cheap...and disposable in many homes because they are cheap...because knowlegeable buyers do not BUY BYB puppies....if you want to be a responsible breeder - then put some energy and time into learning about the breed....being defensive is not necessary....people are trying to help because we are all so very very very sad at the constant barrage of emails, posts, threads, facebook photos of BYB dogs on death row everywhere in this country!
> 
> Lee


They aren't anymore disposable then dogs that come from good breeders. Times are changing and people no longer hesitate to drop that $1500 off at a shelter or leave abandoned in the home they just lost. There is no way that you can say 100% without a doubt that all of those dogs on death row are byb's. It okay to have an opinion, but not to state it as fact. I do agree that research is a good idea to learn about the breed.


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## Lucy Dog

german_shepherdlover said:


> Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time


$100-$200 tops.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

MarkMulder said:


> Every breeder that I've found within 150 miles of Los Angeles charges at least $3000, up to $4500. I suppose the prices here are inflated.


Vetting prices are there (like WAY more - similar to east coast metro areas) so would not be surprised if other prices were as well!
*
For the OP - does your female have the nerve strength to handle the pedigree of the male in terms of what will be produced? Is that a thing, smart breeder people, that should be looked at?

*Personally IF I were going to buy a dog I would be looking to pay for the following:

1/6 Health testing 
1/6 Extensive temperament testing in both real world and human created ways
1/6 Work of the dog in some area/applicability to my needs
1/6 Knowledge of the breeder in terms of pedigree way back
1/6 Breeder ethics
1/6 Etc (color, size and more)

So I would pay for a $1800 dog (to make it math easy for me) that ticks all the boxes. Zero for one that does not. 

The average person who wants a police dog, regardless of ability to handle them - and doesn't yet know what you get for the extra money, $200-300.


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## bigd3077

Please do not bread your dog. So many great dogs are in shelters here in South Florida. most of your pups will probably end up there too cause you wont get more than a couple hundred dollars for them, and the people that buy $200 GSD puppies have no idea what they are in for. They can't handle them, and they end up in shelters. My .02.....


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## llombardo

bigd3077 said:


> Please do not bread your dog. So many great dogs are in shelters here in South Florida. most of your pups will probably end up there too cause you wont get more than a couple hundred dollars for them, and the people that buy $200 GSD puppies have no idea what they are in for. They can't handle them, and they end up in shelters. My .02.....


Why is everyone stuck on the fact that if a dog cost $200 it is more likely to end up in the shelter? What part of people don't care doesn't everyone get? All dogs are replaceable, no matter the price. The sad part is that whether the dog cost $200 or $1000 and goes to a home that doesn't know what they are in for, it leaves the dog moving from home to home or even getting put to sleep This isn't the dogs fault, its all human error or ignorance.


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## msvette2u

llombardo said:


> They aren't anymore disposable then dogs that come from good breeders. Times are changing and people no longer hesitate to drop that $1500 off at a shelter or leave abandoned in the home they just lost. There is no way that you can say 100% without a doubt that all of those dogs on death row are byb's. It okay to have an opinion, but not to state it as fact. I do agree that research is a good idea to learn about the breed.


Here's the thing though - good breeders usually chip their dogs (or tattoo but chips are better as there is a database) and have purchasers sign contracts that they'll return the dog if it doesn't work out. Most the good breeders I know of will take back their dog if it winds up in a shelter or rescue.

People tend to get dogs from BYBs because they are cheaper (less of an investment if the dog winds up at a shelter or rehomed), and they'll also purchase from Pet stores (puppy mills) or out of the newspaper because there's less responsibility on their end, such as returning the pet to breeder. 
This has been my experience anyway. 

So basically, these things deter people from good breeders, that is cost, requirements such as fenced yard, etc., and less commitment.


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## Anitsisqua

NOTHING. You should not have puppies! 

I am not trying to be rude here, but it is frustrating because you don't even seem to realize how much you don't know. 

Your female is too young, you don't seem to understand GSD genetics, and being pre-Vet does not automatically qualify you to be a top-notch breeder. Not only that, but the informed buyers won't buy your pups because the parents haven't been properly certified and titled. 

I understand you know something about canine health, but that's not all there is to it. I've got a degree in marine biology, but I wouldn't presume to march right into Sea World and tell them which belugas should be bred.

Honey, PLEASE....breeding is NOT easy money if you do it right, and briefly having a house full of sweet puppies is not worth it if you're setting them up for a lifetime of health, temperament, or owner problems. You must realize that.

I'm not trying to order you around or treat you like you're stupid or anything. I am beseeching you not to jump into breeding feet-first.


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## msvette2u

Wondering if this was just an advertisement for an upcoming litter... :thinking:


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## llombardo

msvette2u said:


> Here's the thing though - good breeders usually chip their dogs (or tattoo but chips are better as there is a database) and have purchasers sign contracts that they'll return the dog if it doesn't work out. Most the good breeders I know of will take back their dog if it winds up in a shelter or rescue.


Really the chip doesn't mean anything if the owner gives the dog to a person or rehomes it on CL. People aren't that quick to give the dog back to the breeder.At least 50% of the time they are getting another dog about a week after the one they failed with was given away. They also don't want to look like failures. I can't tell you how many ads I see for all breeds with people that got dogs from a good breeder and are giving it up on CL.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

OT -- was wondering if anyone else was old enough when they saw Ottumwa Iowa thought of Radar O'Reilly from MASH.


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## msvette2u

I forgot that's where he's from, but I did look up the city page!
Police Department | City of Ottumwa, Iowa


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## FlyAway

There's nothing wrong with breeding a dog before 2 years. OFA does do prelims. It's just not "official". Even though it sounds like the OP isn't going through OFA. 

People looking for a quality dog are going to wanto to see official proof of your health checks. Just telling them the health check are done doesn't mean anything. 

Here is a great example. This dog has a web page with all the official "certs."
Celestial Mastiffs - Rdgrunner Celestial St. Michael - Health Testing

If you don't have that, then you might as well ask about $500 for a puppy.

I just remembered something. I was looking at a puppy in rescue. The father of the puppy was a Police K9, the mother was a pet. The "breeder" ended up selling 1 puppy, the other 6 went into rescue because he couldn't find homes for them. Just saying that even though you plan, you might not get the results expected.


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## german_shepherdlover

okay I won't have puppies until I do more research and everything. I realize now it is very important and don't want to be a byb or create bloodline problems like some people have done. I understand why you guys are upset. We don't need dogs on death row and having health problems. I love animals to death and don't want to see any suffer. I will be sure to research more about the breed and assure everything getss done right. I totally agree that there are too many byb breeders out there. Thank you for all your help you guys changed my thinking and helped me know what the right thing to do is.


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## msvette2u

Done right, the price of the puppies isn't going to matter, because you don't have a litter to make money...you do it to improve the breed and you can't do that without knowing tons more about the parentage of both dogs than you do now.


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## DaniFani

Also, a police dog (retired, fail-out, whatever) is a HIGH drive, working dog. MOST people would not be able to handle this...and most who are looking for this would have done a lot of research and be VERY careful who they get their puppies from(breeders who have been in the business for a LONG time, titled/showed their dogs, know pedigrees backwards and forwards etc..). For the love of all that is holy, PLEASE, at the very least, join a sch club and find mentors...maybe they can "assist" you and educate you.


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## kiya

german_shepherdlover said:


> okay I won't have puppies until I do more research and everything. I realize now it is very important and don't want to be a byb or create bloodline problems like some people have done. I understand why you guys are upset. We don't need dogs on death row and having health problems. I love animals to death and don't want to see any suffer. I will be sure to research more about the breed and assure everything getss done right. I totally agree that there are too many byb breeders out there. Thank you for all your help you guys changed my thinking and helped me know what the right thing to do is.


Thank you!


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## german_shepherdlover

I understand this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. I am so thankful I got an account so I can learn more about the breed. This way I can learn all the ins and outs. I am thankful to be surrounded by educated people like you so I don't become like some people who have no idea what they are doing and mis treat the breed. I love my dog to death she is the best dog I have ever had in my life and such good company! I will never want another kind. German shepherds are truly and amazing breed and love their owners to death. It is amazing. Thank you for everyones critisim. It opened my eyes to an issue I never even knew existed.


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## german_shepherdlover

_okay I won't have puppies until I do more research and everything. I realize now it is very important and don't want to be a byb or create bloodline problems like some people have done. I understand why you guys are upset. We don't need dogs on death row and having health problems. I love animals to death and don't want to see any suffer. I will be sure to research more about the breed and assure everything getss done right. I totally agree that there are too many byb breeders out there. Thank you for all your help you guys changed my thinking and helped me know what the right thing to do is._


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## DaniFani

german_shepherdlover said:


> okay I won't have puppies until I do more research and everything. I realize now it is very important and don't want to be a byb or create bloodline problems like some people have done. I understand why you guys are upset. We don't need dogs on death row and having health problems. I love animals to death and don't want to see any suffer. I will be sure to research more about the breed and assure everything getss done right. I totally agree that there are too many byb breeders out there. Thank you for all your help you guys changed my thinking and helped me know what the right thing to do is.


OH wonderful!!!! Yay!!! So, happy...hope this wasn't just because I talked about calling Iowa PD's. But, seriously, if you desire to be a breeder, find a local sch club, they would be happy to mentor and help you. THEN you can decide if this match is right. I was totally confused about what a byb was until I joined this group. They aren't all horrible puppy mills, a lot think they are doing the right thing.

Breeding's purpose is to better the breed. And a good breeder PROVES his dog's worthiness to be bred by showing an titling them, proving that they can stand the test of the breed. Pedigree is most def not everything, it is part of the puzzle, but just as important as all the others. Please also stick around this forum, you can learn a LOT from some experienced owners, trainers, handlers, breeders, etc....and sorry I got so harsh ;-)


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## german_shepherdlover

I can't tell everyone how much you helped me. Thank you all so much! I can't believe there are people out there who mis treat the breed and mess up bloodlines because of stupidity. I am glad I got an account because now I can learn more and not make the same mistake so many people in America are not. I agree things need to be done precisly and correctly. Now that you guys have helped me I will be able to do that.


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## Freestep

Can you please post the pedigrees for both the male and the female? Pictures would be nice as well.

As you say, you don't want to be a backyard breeder. At the very minimum, you must wait until your female is 2 years old so that her hip/elbow x-rays can be evaulated by OFA. If they are as excellent as you say, you should have no problem getting an OFA number on her. Since you have family in the veterinary field, getting another set of x-rays taken at age 2 should be no problem.

You should also test for DM. If you're saying "what's that?" then please read up on Degenerative Myelopathy. You will need to learn this stuff in vet school anyway.

You should consider getting a title on your female. CGC, AKC Obedience, Rally, even an Agility title--SOMETHING to show that your female has good temperament. Temperament is SO important in this breed, and so many GSDs have bad temperament due to careless breeding.

Both male and female should have a negative Brucellosis test prior to breeding.

Now, you may have already "decided" that you're going to breed her to this particular male. But what if the two pedigrees don't match up well? Very detailed information about the dogs in the male's line should be available, but what do you know about your female's bloodlines? There are certain bloodlines that don't mix well, and even if both parents are excellent in every way, the genetics may not match up in such a way that the offspring inherit the best of both. In some cases, mixing certain bloodlines can bring out the WORST of both, so you must be VERY CAREFUL when crossing bloodlines.

If you post the pedigrees, perhaps we can help you figure out whether it would be a good match.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

llombardo said:


> Why is everyone stuck on the fact that if a dog cost $200 it is more likely to end up in the shelter?


There a couple of reasons.

A) Just in general, not even just specifically with dogs, things we pay less for we are less apt to feel bad for getting rid of. For instance, I would wear flip flops all year long if I could (living in Iowa doesn't really lend itself to that) and do so as soon as the weather is about 55 degrees and until it gets down to that again in the fall. So, I have a tendency to pay quite a bit of money for a nice, supportive, well made, pair of flip-flops. I also buy a couple pairs of cheapo walmart flip-flops. Why do I buy the latter? Because at $5 a pop I don't care as much what happens to them. I can wear them to the beach and get them all muddy, if one breaks while I'm walking, no biggie. Now my nicer ones I'm much more careful with because I invested more. 

B) Generally, if people have purchased a $1000+ dog they have put some thought into it. They have made a significant investment. Most people do not just drop that much money lightly. On the other hand, a $200 dog from the paper doesn't take too much forethought. Also, breeders that charge that for dogs generally don't dig too deep. So an impulse buy has a much greater likelihood of ending up in a shelter.


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## german_shepherdlover

No it has nothing to do with that. Just doing a little of my own research I have noticed some german sheherds that I feel sorry for because people have bred them with bad hips trying to make them for show. It is terrbible some that I have saw walking down the streets! Some of the poor things backs are so slanted they are walking on their hocks.  I actually saw one like that at our state fair and felt bad for it. I was totally confused about byb when I saw this too! I was like huh? But now I know lol.  Do you know any clubs or mentors that I could get into?


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## martemchik

DaniFani said:


> Also, a police dog (retired, fail-out, whatever) is a HIGH drive, working dog. MOST people would not be able to handle this...and most who are looking for this would have done a lot of research and be VERY careful who they get their puppies from(breeders who have been in the business for a LONG time, titled/showed their dogs, know pedigrees backwards and forwards etc..). For the love of all that is holy, PLEASE, at the very least, join a sch club and find mentors...maybe they can "assist" you and educate you.


Or the people that want one so they can run around telling their friends and neighbors that their dog's sire was a police dog.


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## Anitsisqua

german_shepherdlover said:


> okay I won't have puppies until I do more research and everything. I realize now it is very important and don't want to be a byb or create bloodline problems like some people have done. I understand why you guys are upset. We don't need dogs on death row and having health problems. I love animals to death and don't want to see any suffer. I will be sure to research more about the breed and assure everything getss done right. I totally agree that there are too many byb breeders out there. Thank you for all your help you guys changed my thinking and helped me know what the right thing to do is.


A very wise and mature decision. Thank you.


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## wolfstraum

llombardo said:


> They aren't anymore disposable then dogs that come from good breeders. Times are changing and people no longer hesitate to drop that $1500 off at a shelter or leave abandoned in the home they just lost. There is no way that you can say 100% without a doubt that all of those dogs on death row are byb's. It okay to have an opinion, but not to state it as fact. I do agree that research is a good idea to learn about the breed.



I realize that not ALL dogs in shelters are cheap BYB dogs...but I would stand by the majority being so....just by the logistics of what is bred in this country - responsible breeders who do it all right, who carefully screen sellers etc, are very much in the minority! I wish AKC would publish statistics again - last one I saw, 45,000 GSD litters (4th place) and 110,000 individual registrations....not even 3 per litter....so there are alot of dogs slipping through without the papers even being processed...if the litters average 6 pups, that is 270,000 GSD pups born that year....with probably no more than 150/250 American breeders even loosely following SV standards (guesstimate - and I think it is high) and lets say 500 ASL active showline kennels - even taking 5 litters average for those 750 litters is only 3500 litters - so over 40,000 litters from commercial breeders, BYB and the let's let the kids see the miracle of birth litters.....

So I feel pretty safe in saying MOST of the dogs in the shelters are from BYB type litters.....yes, there are idiots who will dump an imported barren female in the shelter, and bad axx dudes who wash a dog out and won't be bothered to rehome it, and just dump it...and townships who have dumped retired K9 dogs there and relatives of people who have passed away who don't know what to do and figure the shelter will find a home for the dog.....but most of the breeders I know - the ones I consider responsible breeders - will make every effort to take back or help rehome a dog from their breeding....I know I do and always will....as I am sure, will board members Lisa, Chris and Anne Kent...No questions asked - had a baby and can't handle the dog too? Fine, let's get him back here....run into tax problems and can't afford the dog....ok, no problem....too much dog - send him right back....dog won't go to nationals with me (ever think it was you - not the dog?) and it is a week before Christmas, the dog is 3 and spayed and titled, and you have a new pup coming from Europe and husband says no more dogs? Put her on a plane and I will deal with it....you're pregnant and the dog knocked you down leaping out of the crate she was in for 12 hours? Put that one on the plane too - thank GOD for that one!!!!!!!!!!! Mistake to sell that one! How many BYB will do anything they can to help an owner and take the dog back??? They go to the pound...

Make me upset just thinking about it all.....

Lee


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## DaniFani

martemchik said:


> Or the people that want one so they can run around telling their friends and neighbors that their dog's sire was a police dog.


Even worse.


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## DaniFani

german_shepherdlover said:


> No it has nothing to do with that. Just doing a little of my own research I have noticed some german sheherds that I feel sorry for because people have bred them with bad hips trying to make them for show. It is terrbible some that I have saw walking down the streets! Some of the poor things backs are so slanted they are walking on their hocks.  I actually saw one like that at our state fair and felt bad for it. I was totally confused about byb when I saw this too! I was like huh? But now I know lol.  Do you know any clubs or mentors that I could get into?


I am in Oregon, if you were out here I'd invite you to our training on Thursday ;-) Alas, I do not know anyone in Iowa. You should have your cousin ask his PD, usually their trainers know of local clubs and trainers you can get hooked up with. 

Honestly, I would REALLY make sure your cousin can breed this dog. Just because he has rights, does not mean he has breeding rights. Most responsible breeders have contracts and only sell puppies on limited registration. Responsible breeders would NEVER want their dog in the situation that your cousin's dog is in.

I'll be honest, I called the PD and they are NOT in support of having a dog bred they paid for and most have contracts stating just that. Be VERY careful. If someone buys a pup, and has something go wrong, they would have quite a suite against you, your cousin, and potentially the city/county/state. A police dog, working line, GSD is NOT a genetic makeup that should be mixed with just any bitch.

And what about your dog? What does the breeder of your dog think about you breeding her? If she came from a responsible breeder she would have come with a limited registration? Unless you disclosed you wanted to breed her? In that case, I don't know many breeders who would agree to that and have NO hand in the sire that she is bred to. 

You don't have to answer all these questions just some things to really think about. And of course I'd love to see pics of your pretty lady!!


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## martemchik

german_shepherdlover said:


> No it has nothing to do with that. Just doing a little of my own research I have noticed some german sheherds that I feel sorry for because people have bred them with bad hips trying to make them for show. It is terrbible some that I have saw walking down the streets! Some of the poor things backs are so slanted they are walking on their hocks.  I actually saw one like that at our state fair and felt bad for it. I was totally confused about byb when I saw this too! I was like huh? But now I know lol.  Do you know any clubs or mentors that I could get into?


Just a heads up...slanted back and walking on hocks has ZERO to do with the hips. Some of those dogs have the best hips and hip scores from the OFA. Show dogs do not have bad hips, most RESPONSIBLE show dog breeders will OFA and will only breed if their dogs have good hips, same as with working dog breeders.

The reason those dogs walk on their hocks and have slanted backs is because of the angulation in their joints and the length of the different leg bones and not the quality of their joints.

Just another sign that you need to do a lot more research and learning before jumping in to breeding your dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I come at things from a different place - some breeders on here have this mindset already - you can see some of their posts, because they are thinking about the dogs, and future dogs, their health, homes, etc but for people new to the breeding thing, you can cut to the chase by volunteering in rescue first. 

You see dogs whose health and temperament and behavior are impacted by the choices that people make. You get some good applicant/buyer screening tools. You learn about disease. You learn new ways to train and new behaviors that need training. You get to see different "styles" of GSD. 

*Mississippi Valley German Shepherd Dog Rescue*

I am not sure if they are still as good as they were - and I am not sure if Norma, who used to be a mod on this board - is still with them. But a place to start checking. 



Volunteer a year while training your dog - find out who the breeders are that you might want to work with (ones that rescue knows will take the dog back).



Hopefully someone will answer my question about the nerve strength of your female in breeding with that male when peds are up.  


Good luck!


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## NancyJ

Glad to see that you made it through the board "hazing" for considering breeding a dog and took the comments into consideration without getting upset! There is a nice sticky note in the breeding section to help determine if/when to breed the dog. 

The should I breed my dog flowchart is pretty good.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html

That the department paid $12,000 for a male import dog is probably nothing "special" if that included training, but I think young "green" dogs are still in the $4-8K price range in the states...at least they seemed to be when I decided to buy a puppy instead of a young adult for my cadaver dog. That said if you go to www.offa.org and look at both the hip/elbow tests as well as recommended genetic tests that is a good start.

It really is true that you can put together two stellar dogs and wind up with a wreck if you don't know how the lines combine. Also "working" structure (hips/back/elbows) may not be "breeding" quality structure. Putting up the pedigrees of the dogs really is a good place to start...as is getting some working certifications/titles on the female. She should be, at a minimum, 2 before you even think about it.

I think a lot of responsible breeders still sell dogs with full registrations.


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## TxFig

german_shepherdlover said:


> _okay I won't have puppies until I do more research and everything. I realize now it is very important and don't want to be a byb or create bloodline problems like some people have done. I understand why you guys are upset. We don't need dogs on death row and having health problems. I love animals to death and don't want to see any suffer. I will be sure to research more about the breed and assure everything getss done right. I totally agree that there are too many byb breeders out there. Thank you for all your help you guys changed my thinking and helped me know what the right thing to do is._



You've taken the first step toward being a responsible breeder. :thumbup:


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## Jax08

I watched MASH but I didn't pick up on that!


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## onyx'girl

german_shepherdlover said:


> I understand this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed. I am so thankful I got an account so I can learn more about the breed. This way I can learn all the ins and outs. I am thankful to be surrounded by educated people like you so I don't become like some people who have no idea what they are doing and mis treat the breed. I love my dog to death she is the best dog I have ever had in my life and such good company! I will never want another kind. German shepherds are truly and amazing breed and love their owners to death. It is amazing. Thank you for everyones critisim. It opened my eyes to an issue I never even knew existed.


:thumbup:


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## Andaka

German Shepherd Dog Club of America - Information and resources for owners of German Shepherd Dogs and German Shepherd Puppies


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## x11

OP these pups would be highly marketable, one the one hand you got a REAL police dog and on the other you got a great pet dog so you could say this is the best of both worlds mating - i am sure there are plenty enough titles on at least the sire side, the people that most likely will by will neither know or understand titles and health certs anyway. just think most people that breed gsd's or any other breed do it like you - two neat dogs and away you go. so if MOST people are doing then its MUST be morally fine by definition. yr not mean to dogs or a puppy mill so what the heck, 10 pups $1000 a piece minus worming...if you don't do this plenty of others so why miss out.

this is not the devil talking


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## LoveEcho

There are legalities against breeding a working police dog. Your cousin does not own the dog, the municipality does. 

Edit: just finished reading the rest of the thread. Kudos on being receptive to learning. I mean major, major kudos!


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## german_shepherdlover

Thank you so much everyone for your help. I am super interested in getting all the correct certifications to breed my female. I would like to thank everyone who has been helpful in posting some cites that I can research more on the different types of bloodlines. I will also be sure to not breed her with bloodlines that don't mix. I plan on finding a local club to help mentor me and assure I have all the correct qualifications. In 6 more months I will get her officially OFa certified. I am searching right now for some mentors and local clubs that are within driving distance. Thanks so much for everyones help. If anyone would like to post about more qualifications I would appriciate that greatly because I want to make sure I improve the breed not mess it up. ALso when I find a mentor and do more researching if I find any difficulites I won't breed her. I love her as a pet and would be completly satisifed with keeping her as a pet if need be


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## german_shepherdlover

Also once again I didn't explain everything enirely because it would take to much time to and I had to go to work...however I don't want people to take things the wrong way anymore so here is the whole thing since I didn't have time before work earlier.,.......okay, so my cousin was a police officer. His dog was his partner.....My cousin ended up finding another job so he quit. When he quit he purchased the dog from the police department. The dog fully belongs to him now....He then volunteers or I guess you could say donates the dog whenever the department needs him. The dog is now fully just a volunteer just like we have volunteer fire fighters and so on. He owns the dog now. Bill of sale and everything.


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## german_shepherdlover

Again, I would like to thank everyone so much for helping me understand there is a correct way to do things. If I had not come upon this site and joined I would have been clueless and just went about things like most people do. However, I want to do everything the correct way and make sure my dog has all the correct and right certifications. It is the right and humane thing to do for the animals i totally agree! I just want everyone to know I am just attempting to start out just like all of you had to. I can't tell you how happy I am to discover all of this! I am excited to know all of this. If for some reason along my jounery and researching I find any complications or find that it isn't the correct way to do things I won't. Like I said before, I love my dog to death and would be completley happy with just having her as part of my family! She doesn't have to be a mother or anything it was just a neat thought. But if for some reason I can't do things correctly than I wont! They make wonderful family members just the way they are!


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## wolfstraum

x11 said:


> OP these pups would be highly marketable, one the one hand you got a REAL police dog and on the other you got a great pet dog so you could say this is the best of both worlds mating - i am sure there are plenty enough titles on at least the sire side, the people that most likely will by will neither know or understand titles and health certs anyway. just think most people that breed gsd's or any other breed do it like you - two neat dogs and away you go. so if MOST people are doing then its MUST be morally fine by definition. yr not mean to dogs or a puppy mill so what the heck, 10 pups $1000 a piece minus worming...if you don't do this plenty of others so why miss out.
> 
> this is not the devil talking


You know - some people cannot recognize sarcasm.....this type of post is counter productive IMO

Lee


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## x11

sadly i am starting to think you are correct, about the inability to register blatant and meant to be obvious sarcasm.


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## NancyJ

Sometimes people recognize sarcasm and are gracious enough to move past it because they are not looking for a fight.

For the OP's consideration, not sure what the dog does for the department but your cousin needs to make sure any lawsuits against the dog are covered by the department, not him as any homeowners insurance would not cover a working dog. I only say that knowing what my search and rescue team pays for liability coverage.


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## Freestep

x11 said:


> sadly i am starting to think you are correct, about the inability to register blatant and meant to be obvious sarcasm.


You do need to work on your writing skills if you want your sarcasm to be "obvious", IMO. Over the internet, we cannot read your inflection. 

When I want to show sarcasm, I tend to make use of the rolling eyes icon (this one:  ) or I put things in quotes as though it was something I heard someone say. Use of superlatives, hyperbole and ridiculous exaggeration helps get the point across. Sometimes I deliberately use horrible spelling and grammar to emphasize the stupidity of the comments.

On the internet things need to be more obvious.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

/sarcasm off would work?


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## Wolfgeist

Here are the basic guidelines for breeding dogs:

YOUR DOG must be/have:


*Purebred, registered *with AKC/CKC/Reputable Kennel Club
*Worthy pedigree* with *genetics worthy of being passed on* to puppies (titled/shown/healthy ancestors)
*HIPS certified with the OFA *(Fair/Good/Excellent)
*ELBOWS certified with the OFA* (normal)
*DM Testing with the OFA*
*Recommended additional testing with the OFA* - eyes, heart, thyroid...
*Certifications for Temperament* - Canine Good Citizen Certificate/Canine Good Neighbour certificate, ATTS Temperament Test certificate, Herding Instinct Certificate/Test
*Working Titles and Sport/Work Training *- Obedience, Schutzhund/IPO, Herding, Police Work, Protection Sports Association, Flyball, Agility, etc.
*An evaluation of the dog's conformation* by a certified/qualified judge or evaluator with a kennel club or the SV. Show titles, AD, etc.
*Sexual, mental and physical maturity*.


YOU need:


In depth knowledge of the breed
In depth knowledge of pedigrees and bloodlines
Knowledge of key dogs in pedigrees, what they bring to a pedigree
How to combine two pedigrees (a male and a female) to create a much desired result in puppies
Experience with the breed, the pedigrees you are interested in using in your breeding program
Lots of money for training, competing, health testing, veterinarian care for mother, father and puppies.
A mentor to guide you and offer advice.
A stud with the same requirements listed above.


That is how you become a reputable breeder and charge $1500 - $2000 for your puppies. Don't expect any income from litters, though... you will need to pay off the bills you accumulated getting the dogs ready for breeding.


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## hunterisgreat

qbchottu said:


> If you knew what went into producing QUALITY dogs, you would realize that most breeders barely break even if they do it right...
> 
> I spend 300-400$ a WEEK just on gas to drive to my training clubs, shows/trials, and to parks/fields to train/track. That doesn't even factor in training and helper fees, equipment, show/trial entry costs, handler fees, hotel costs, travel, vetting, food, meds, etc. Now add in time, and physical/mental investment on top of that, time away from work/family/etc, personal sacrifice....then you start to realize WHY those fees are charged. If you knew what went into it, you would not be so cynical about costs for good dogs.
> 
> Also FYI, you can get good working pups for 1k-2k and good showlines for under 2k (even cheaper if you want a long coat) so where are you getting this 3k price?


OMG WHAT ARE YOU DRIVING?? A box truck? It doesn't cost me $300 in fuel to take my diesel boat 70 miles off shore and back lol


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## hunterisgreat

Wild Wolf said:


> Here are the basic guidelines for breeding dogs:
> 
> YOUR DOG must be/have:
> 
> 
> *Purebred, registered *with AKC/CKC/Reputable Kennel Club
> *Worthy pedigree* with *genetics worthy of being passed on* to puppies (titled/shown/healthy ancestors)
> *HIPS certified with the OFA *(Fair/Good/Excellent)
> *ELBOWS certified with the OFA* (normal)
> *DM Testing with the OFA*
> *Recommended additional testing with the OFA* - eyes, heart, thyroid...
> *Certifications for Temperament* - Canine Good Citizen Certificate/Canine Good Neighbour certificate, ATTS Temperament Test certificate, Herding Instinct Certificate/Test
> *Working Titles and Sport/Work Training *- Obedience, Schutzhund/IPO, Herding, Police Work, Protection Sports Association, Flyball, Agility, etc.
> *An evaluation of the dog's conformation* by a certified/qualified judge or evaluator with a kennel club or the SV. Show titles, AD, etc.
> *Sexual, mental and physical maturity*.
> 
> 
> YOU need:
> 
> 
> In depth knowledge of the breed
> In depth knowledge of pedigrees and bloodlines
> Knowledge of key dogs in pedigrees, what they bring to a pedigree
> How to combine two pedigrees (a male and a female) to create a much desired result in puppies
> Experience with the breed, the pedigrees you are interested in using in your breeding program
> Lots of money for training, competing, health testing, veterinarian care for mother, father and puppies.
> A mentor to guide you and offer advice.
> A stud with the same requirements listed above.
> 
> 
> That is how you become a reputable breeder and charge $1500 - $2000 for your puppies. Don't expect any income from litters, though... you will need to pay off the bills you accumulated getting the dogs ready for breeding.


What is everyones aversion to PennHIP? I personally trust PennHIP more than OFA.


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## hunterisgreat

german_shepherdlover said:


> Again, I would like to thank everyone so much for helping me understand there is a correct way to do things. If I had not come upon this site and joined I would have been clueless and just went about things like most people do. However, I want to do everything the correct way and make sure my dog has all the correct and right certifications. It is the right and humane thing to do for the animals i totally agree! I just want everyone to know I am just attempting to start out just like all of you had to. I can't tell you how happy I am to discover all of this! I am excited to know all of this. If for some reason along my jounery and researching I find any complications or find that it isn't the correct way to do things I won't. Like I said before, I love my dog to death and would be completley happy with just having her as part of my family! She doesn't have to be a mother or anything it was just a neat thought. But if for some reason I can't do things correctly than I wont! They make wonderful family members just the way they are!


I skipped a large part in the middle of this thread but I commend you on taking this stance.


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## Wolfgeist

hunterisgreat said:


> What is everyones aversion to PennHIP? I personally trust PennHIP more than OFA.


Sorry.. I am just not familiar with PennHIP whatsoever. No clue what it is. Hip evaluations?


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## carmspack

do you want to post your females pedigree as a starting point in learning about the different lines, key significant sires or dams?


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## hunterisgreat

Wild Wolf said:


> Sorry.. I am just not familiar with PennHIP whatsoever. No clue what it is. Hip evaluations?


a 3 position xray analyzed by computer that gives you a number and relates it to all tested dogs of your breed, one for each hip side. one of the xrays is actually the OFA image. They also use a device to pull the hip away from the joint to see how much play is there under load. OFA is subjective, and you only get a few ratings... what if I've got just barely good compared to "the best fair hips ever". Would I not breed the latter b/c it was fair vice good when in reality the two hips were similar enough that it wasn't a major difference? its clearer if I said the first dog is .38, and the second dog is .39.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

If I were looking for a dog, I would prefer to see Penn Hip and if I were getting x-rays for more than just diagnostics (which is what I do because my dogs are not procreating) I would definitely do Penn Hip. I think there is also less play with positioning - like, if I pull this leg a little bit up and to the left, even though that's not the way the hip really is, it becomes a good or fair...I think that's harder to do, from what I understand (and I could be wrong) for the Penn Hip. 

PennHIP Home


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## hunterisgreat

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> If I were looking for a dog, I would prefer to see Penn Hip and if I were getting x-rays for more than just diagnostics (which is what I do because my dogs are not procreating) I would definitely do Penn Hip. I think there is also less play with positioning - like, if I pull this leg a little bit up and to the left, even though that's not the way the hip really is, it becomes a good or fair...I think that's harder to do, from what I understand (and I could be wrong) for the Penn Hip.
> 
> PennHIP Home


Yeah they use this device that you can actually see a hint of on the xray although I've never seen it personally. It takes the subjectivity out, and the three views show the hip at rest and under load. Further, they claim they can be done at 16 weeks of age.


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## LARHAGE

MarkMulder said:


> Every breeder that I've found within 150 miles of Los Angeles charges at least $3000, up to $4500. I suppose the prices here are inflated.



West Coast German Shepherds
Lundborg Land German Shepherd
Thinschmidt German Shepherds

All are in Riverside County and none of them charge that much.


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## Kaity

german_shepherdlover said:


> I am replying due to my recent post so nobody else gets confussed. Both dogs are in good health. They are both up to date on all of their vaccinations, tests, and exams. Also they have both had xrays and exams peformed on their hips, elbows ect. We have the xrays and all the shot vaccinations. If you must know both of them are microchiped as well. They also have had dental check ups, heart worm check ups. Everything you can imagine. As I said before my fiance and his father both work at a vet so my female gets all the exams and check ups for free. I am taking pre vet courses to get into vet school so I know all about proper treatment, vacinations and so on. I also have lived on a farm my entire life I can assure you they are both in tippy top health and have xrays and records to prove it all. Now that I have cleared that, I am just wondering how much to price the puppies for when my female is ready to breed??? Considering they are both reigestered and have had all their vaccinations, xrays, health check ups ect...Can someone please answer my question I first had since you know all the facts now??  We are just wondering how much to charge for them since we see a various price ranges all the time



1. Why do you want to breed? Don't you figure there are enough GSD's sitting in shelters?
2. What are you contributing to the breed? What will these puppies be? Pets? Working dogs? 

As far as I know, police dogs have schutzhund training. And in schH, you DO NOT breed an untitled dog, or to an untitled dog or you get kicked out.

Why do you want to breed when you don't understand the pedigree or balances of each dog? You can put together two great dogs and end up with crapshoot puppies.


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## Jax08

Kaity - you should probably read the whole thread before posting. And K9's do not have Schutzhund training and titles. The training they have, while similar in ways, is police training.


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## Kaity

To my understanding it's different up here. As a general rule I wouldn't breed an untitled dog, or to an untitled dog. My pups dam isn't titled, she created great pups with few key problems. And these are the problems that matter and should have been taken into consideration before pairing her to the sire that they did. Some of these pups are nervous wrecks, partially because of genetics partially because the owners allow it and encourage or baby it.


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## Jax08

you really, really need to read the whole thread. The dog has not been bred. 

And the OP is in Iowa in the United States.


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## Colleen

MarkMulder said:


> Every breeder that I've found within 150 miles of Los Angeles charges at least $3000, up to $4500. I suppose the prices here are inflated.


German Shepherd Dog Breeder German Shepherd Puppy for Sale

I almost purchased a puppy from them a month ago, but decided to go with a breeder a little closer to home and we were looking for a male and they only had females at the time. The litter that I was looking at were about 1,250 and then 350-400 for shipping. Keep looking you'll find your perfect pup! I highly recommend checking out the AKC website for finding great breeders.


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## NancyJ

Kaity said:


> To my understanding it's different up here. As a general rule I wouldn't breed an untitled dog, or to an untitled dog. My pups dam isn't titled, she created great pups with few key problems. And these are the problems that matter and should have been taken into consideration before pairing her to the sire that they did. Some of these pups are nervous wrecks, partially because of genetics partially because the owners allow it and encourage or baby it.


Typically some dogs that SHOULD be bred do not have sport titles such as schutzhund, because they are certified WORKING dogs such as police and SAR. 

The titles are also one part of the picture as you can have a titled dog NOT worth breeding. It is obviously a good goal but not the whole picture.

I think the most important thing is the person doing the actual breeding has the background, dog experience, and knowledge of genetics to know what they are doing, with or without titles. But that PERSON should have enough experience in work or sport venues to know what they are looking at when they select a dog.


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## Kaity

Jax08 said:


> you really, really need to read the whole thread. The dog has not been bred.
> 
> And the OP is in Iowa in the United States.


I have read the entire thread. And I'm in Canada - not the states which is what I meant, it may be different up here. 

My post was still replying to the first couple posts from OP.


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## selzer

Kaity said:


> I have read the entire thread. And I'm in Canada - not the states which is what I meant, it may be different up here.
> 
> My post was still replying to the first couple posts from OP.


Well, considering the OP has already chosen not to breed her dog, at least not any time soon, continuing to pound on her doesn't really do much good. I think that letting people know the various reasons for not breeding is beneficial, but when it goes on and on, even after the person has come back and thanked us for the info and said she has re-thought it, instead of just getting mad and stamping off, well there comes a time when it becomes counter-productive. They will tend to look at us as over-zealous fanatics and then do what they initially intended.


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## qbchottu

hunterisgreat said:


> OMG WHAT ARE YOU DRIVING?? A box truck? It doesn't cost me $300 in fuel to take my diesel boat 70 miles off shore and back lol


I will drive 7hrs tomorrow for training - 3.5 there and back. I will drive 3hrs Fri & Sat. I will drive 6 hrs - 3 there and 3 back on Sun. It is not WHAT I drive - it's how FAR I drive. This is not factoring in normal driving to the grocery, work, hiking, parks, tracking, etc... 

Are you taking your diesel boat 200miles off shore and back multiple times a week? 


Oh and lets take a look at driving times for the upcoming shows:
OG Carolina - 8.5hrs each way
OG Landheim - 4.5hrs each way
Sieger Show in WI - 6.5hrs each way

So _that's_ how I hemorrhage money on gas


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## carmspack

Kaity , as a fellow Canadian , there is no difference "up here" . 

In the meantime Bethany start asking lots of questions about different lines. Look to the best of all lines . Go window shopping but leave your credit card at home if you know what I mean.
Go through the pedigree data base classifieds and start picking out what you like - price no problem since you are not buying, yet , see if there is a pattern . Then we can discuss and you'll learn lots.


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## drumbum675

Why does the story keep changing??? Police K-9, then Police K-9 still in-service but owned by the Officer, then retired Police K-9 but "volunteers"????

I work for a large department and there is noooooo way that one of our dogs would or could be owned by anyone besides the city. When that dog is retired the handler is given the option of keeping the retired dog as a pet (for free). 

As far as the department using the dog part-time...or whatever....that would not fly either. The only possible way I could see that happening would be for simple tracking of non-violent offenders (missing persons, etc..), or artical searches. Even then would still be hard to believe. If true, must be a small, no-bite department, because our dogs do a lot of biting and I would hate to have that liability on my shoulders.....


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## Kaleb f

I don't even know why we are still talking about this?? Obviously she didn't know what she was talking about from the start. Why keep analyzing it?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lhczth

selzer said:


> Well, considering the OP has already chosen not to breed her dog, at least not any time soon, continuing to pound on her doesn't really do much good. I think that letting people know the various reasons for not breeding is beneficial, but when it goes on and on, even after the person has come back and thanked us for the info and said she has re-thought it, instead of just getting mad and stamping off, well there comes a time when it becomes counter-productive. They will tend to look at us as over-zealous fanatics and then do what they initially intended.


Excellent point Sue and a good reason to close down this thread.


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