# Very [email protected] months



## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

OK! So my kids are playing outside,and I wanted to see,if she would protect them if some one,came into are backyard.I have a gillie suite...If you dont know what that is,its jupe burlap suite,worn by U.S. snipers to conceal them selfs.Anyways,so I go into the back yard with it on,and as soon as keesha see's me she starts to growl,and took up defenceive stance in front of my kids,as I walked closer,she became more aggresive at me,and was even closing the gap between me and her,I could tell she was gonna attack,but she didnot want to initiate unless she had to,well I walked closer about 20 ft away from my kids,and she attacked me! she did what K9 police dogs do just ran and jumped on me,before i could yell and let her know it was me she did bite me perty good,it drew blood but nothing real bad.I did praise her,on a **** of a job protecting them.i could tell she felt bad for what she did,but she was doing what was right in her mind.Now I hope i didnot disscourage her,if some does come back there,What do you guys think?


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)




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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Great way to traumatize a PUPPY!


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

This is what I think, I think your insane. I am sorry but why would you do such a thing? The pup is just 7mo old and you do this. Unbelievable.This type of stuff needs to be done by someone who is extremely experienced in. Now you may have created a major problem let alone a law suit if your dog bites a kid that happens to walk in your yard.

Another thing that bothers me is you provoked your own dog, and you let the dog bite you on top of drawing blood. Not good in my book. You just may have opened a can of worms you don't want.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: luvsables The pup is just 7mo old and you do this. Unbelievable.This type of stuff needs to be done by someone who is extremely experienced in.


Any anyone that is experienced in this type of thing, and has a lick of sense(sp), would NOT do this to a PUPPY.


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

please work with a professional trainer


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Hmm, sounds like a great way to make a confident puppy into a fear aggressive problem. 

If you want a real protection dog, you need to TRAIN for it, daily and the right way, for years........................


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVERWhat do you guys think?


Well, here's what I think....

This is NOT the way to properly test or train a dog for protection.

This is NOT something you should ever do with your OWN DOG.

This is NOT something that should ever be done to a 7 MONTH OLD PUPPY.

Your dog was showing fear, and reacting only because her initial defensive warnings didn't make the threat (YOU) go away. She was not protective. 7 month old pups aren't protective. But like any animal, if faced with a threat they will attack to defend themselves if they must.

You have just traumatized your dog. She has learned that people are scary. She has learned that YOU are scary and cannot be trusted. And she has learned that biting people is an acceptable response. And she's learned these things at a very impressionable age, where the lessons may stick with her forever and the damage may never be undone even with GOOD training.

I'll stop now because if I say the rest of what I think, I'll be breaking some major board rules...


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## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

Thanks for all your opions,but she is just fine.I took her on a walk and was still calm around other people/dogs.Mabe time will tell...who knows,but im proud of her protecting my kids,and knowing she will do that.Tramatize.....Please!!!!! have ever seen how they train K-9 dogs?


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## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: GSD LOVERWhat do you guys think?
> ...


Are you a Qualified trainer/behaiver specialist?


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

I read your other posts, you say you are new to GSDs. I suggest getting an education in the breed. 

As a 15 year vetern on a police department with many friends who are K9 handlers and after working with a trainer who trains personal protections dogs, Yes I have seen how they are trained. What you did just aint it!


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVER
> Are you a Qualified trainer/behaiver specialist?


Are you?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVER.Tramatize.....Please!!!!! have ever seen how they train K-9 dogs?


As a matter of fact YES. I trained with the K9s from several Police and Sherrif depts for YEARS. And they do NOT do things like this. They also do NOT train PUPPIES.

You also have NO right to get defensive and act like we have no brains. You ASKED what we thought, and we TOLD you.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

GSD Lover, 

Maybe you need to check out Chris Wilds website and SEE her qualifications. She isn't some idiot. She has been training and titling GSD for years. Probably longer than you have HAD GSDs.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVER
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> ...


Yes, she is! Obviously you are not.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

What really puzzles me that people can be so proud of their own ignorance. GSD LOVER, you probably did the most important thing for your puppy by registering on this forum. You will be able to raise a dog of your dreams ONLY if you are willing to listen and learn from people who know what they are talking about, like Chris and many others on this board...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: im proud of her protecting my kids,and knowing she will do that.Tramatize.....Please!!!!! have ever seen how they train K-9 dogs?


The problem with a puppy, is they don't have the background and experience to protect, not from a calm, informed and 'real' place. The fact that I spend the first year or so socializing and training my dogs to BE the confident and secure dogs I want..... THAT'S the training I stress the first year or so.

I would never purposely set up my puppies to possibly be really really fearful and then feel the appropriate reaction to that fear is attack. Attacking when trained and the dog is confident is one thing. But because a puppy is afraid is completely different.

There are tons of information about how to raise up a puppy for protection. Best learned when in conjunction with a good trainer/club. 

FYI, if you need to look up Chris Wild's background and experience, her website is http://wildhauskennels.com/


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

How old are your children? I would think this was scary for them too!

Please read more about this breed.

They are innately intelligent, pack oriented and, yes, with maturity, protective.

At 7 months, your dog is no where near maturity no matter how physically large he is. He wont be mature for quite a while - like two years old.. maybe.

The big issue is learning how to channel these qualities.

Stick around, read and learn. You want this dog to be reliable, not reactive.

Just think... what if it were near Halloween and some 12 year old appears in a scary costume? You really don't want the liability of the dog hurting a child and, trust me, you don't want the liability of such a dog.

I'm not sure what you should do now, but please don't 'test' your dog again.

This really is not the way to make him the guardian of your family.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

What you did was basically have you dressed as a crazed serial killer/rapist threaten your 9 y/o girl with her life to see if her after school martial arts training has paid off. Sure, she's scream, put up a show, maybe assume fighting position, but you've also committed half your retirement to her future therapy sessions. 

FYI, dogs may LOOK mature at half a year of age, but they don't FULLY, MENTALLY mature until 18-24+months of age. Until then, they're babies, children, then silly teenagers. You've sent your dog into fear-based defense, forcing her to fight for her life. Police dogs are first trained to have fun, then trained to fight for real when their maturity begins to kick in. They then learn to have confidence in themselves and their abilities, knowing that they can kick arse but also knowing HOW to kick arse, and finally knowing that they can trust their human partner to assist and lead. If you've every been to a schutzhund club or talked to a K9 handler, you'd know this. This is such ridiculous common sense that not a single poster to your thread NEEDS to be a qualified trainer- it's just plain obvious to anyone who knows anything about dogs!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVER
> Are you a Qualified trainer/behaiver specialist?


From Chris' website:



> Quote:We have been actively involved in schutzhund training for more than a decade. We have trained and titled several dogs in SchH, and in 2007 we founded the Liberty Working Dog Club. In addition to being avid schutzhund enthusiasts, we have taught many group and private obedience classes, and Tim worked for several years as a dog groomer. We also have experience in the training of police K9 tracking, patrol work and drug detection through assisting several law enforcement officers with the training of their canine partners, and raising and imprinting young dogs to be placed in service with the Michigan State Police.


I'd say that is a resounding YES.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Being new to all of this and as the first one to respond, I kept it a bit on the tame side. But my first reaction was
Buddy, you don't wanna know what I think.
I am just a few months in to my first Schutzhund experience. My puppy is your puppy's age. We have not yet even BEGUN to start protection work, heck, we've just really started serious obedience! I am not a qualified behaviorist. This is only the third GSD I have ever owned, the first two being when I was a child. So I can say without qualification, I am no expert. But.......
I am baffled by your actions. I see nothing useful at all that could have possibly come out of them.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVER
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> ...



I've been training schutzhund protection dogs for 10 years. I have also done personal protection training, and watched and participated in countless sessions of police K9 protection training. So while I am far from the most experienced or knowledgeable protection trainer out there, I do know a little bit about the subject, yes.



> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVERbut im proud of her protecting my kids,and knowing she will do that.


Trust me, she was not protecting your kids. She was acting out of fear and defending herself against what she felt was an imminent threat. If pushed farther, she would have turned tail and run, leaving those kids to their fate.

This is not a slight to your dog. It is simply the way dogs work. And it is perfectly normal for a 7 month old. A 7 month old dog does not have the mental maturity to protect anything. Like all animals it will fight for it's life when it hast to, but that is it.

Many people make the error of mistaking fear aggressive behavior for the dog being tough or protective. Many people don't even realize there is a difference. But there is, and that difference is huge. 

In addition to the mental trauma you have subjected your dog to, it sounds as if you are also well on the way to developing a false sense of security with regards to your dog's protection ability. Which can be a dangerous situation in and of itself 



> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVER
> Tramatize.....Please!!!!!


Yes. Traumatize.

If your dog is of strong nerve and temperament, chances are good that she will recover from this incident without any ill effects. If she is not, or if this sort of thing continues and she is subjected to this sort of situation again in the future, you may be well on your way to creating a fearful, dangerous dog.



> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVERhave ever seen how they train K-9 dogs?


Many times. And while it may on the surface appear to be the same as what you did, especially to someone who is not familiar with protection training, it is VERY different.

No police or protection dog would be placed in such a situation before two *very important* criteria are met.

First, maturity. For a dog to be capable of true protection (not frantic fighting for it's life) it must have the confidence, sense of self security, and life experience of adulthood. It also must have proper levels of defense and fight drive, things that are not present in puppies and develop only with maturity.

Second, training. Properly training a dog in protection requires taking it through the different stages of prey, defense, aggression/fight. Showing it how to effectively fight a human and dominate it's opponent. And just as importantly, teaching it control so it will NOT just go off on someone without proper provocation or command of it's handler, and so it will let go and disengage when commanded to. This training takes years to accomplish, and regular maintenance training to keep the skills sharp.

Your dog meets neither of those criteria at this point. If you seriously want a protection dog, that is fine. Find a good, knowledgeable, ethical, and well respected protection trainer and start training her.


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## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

You guys were right.....she went ape sh*t and attacked my whole faimily.....LOL!!! you guys are going to extreme over this.I know i asked for your input,but saying im the worse pet owner,and 'Insane" is a lack of education. My dog is just fine,and will be.She is not tramatized.I never meant any sarcasim against chris,i was just asking her back ground on training on GSD.And she trains schutzhunds and not GSD.And "being around them while training them...Does not mean you know everthing about them,therefor have no say to tell me i have tramatized my dog


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## Strana1 (Feb 9, 2008)

Schutzhund is not a breed of dog; it is a type of training that encompasses, obediance, tracking and protection and is a breed (GSD) requirement in German registries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzhund

"Schutzhund (german for protection dog) is a dog sport that was developed in Germany in the early 1900s to test whether German Shepherd Dogs (GSD) act and perform in the manner that the breed was intended, rather than simply evaluating a dog's appearance. Today, many breeds other than GSDs can compete in Schutzhund, but it is a demanding test for any dog and few of them can pass this kind of test."


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

A more appropriate title for your thread would have been "Very scared @ 7 months" and the topic would fit better in the PUPPY section, under development.



> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVERAnd she trains schutzhunds and not GSD.


I hope you realize there is no such breed as "schutzhunds". Schutzhund is a dog sport developed specifically for GSDs (though more breeds participate!) and it includes protection work. The Wild's train and breed GSDs. 



> Quote:And "being around them while training them...Does not mean you know everthing about them,therefor have no say to tell me i have tramatized my dog


I can promise you Chris has more protection training experience than you ever will and we've never even spoken directly to eachother. It comes across in her posts. Stick around a while and you'll learn that. You'll even eventually laugh at yourself for this thread and wonder wtf you were thinking. If you are lucky enough to have not had a significantl detrimental effect on your BABY PUPPY you will thank your maker and if you did do some damage, you'll come right back to this board and, guess what, the board will help you. Not without an I told you so, but they'll help you.

Did you also miss the part about Chris assisting with K9 training? What exactly is your dog experience? What makes you think you know better than someone with years of actual hands on protection experience? What makes you think you know better than a board whose various protection experience, as a whole, likely exceeds 100 years. Think about that.

Finally, it is very hard to get any type of constructive help when you come across as abrasive and ungrateful. Admit you don't know everything and open your mind to new ideas. You don't know everything about dogs. I don't know everything about dogs. Chris doesn't know everything about dogs. Nobody does. But most are willing to learn, you are not, and that will not get you anywhere on this board.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Apart from everything else posted here-which I agree with, btw-the question remains as to who should keep serious pp dogs. Too often so called 'protective' dogs get themselves in trouble with inappropriate aggression. IMO, very, very few dogs are actually qualified to be pp dogs. Even fewer people are capable of training & safely maintaining such dogs.

Am I 'against' them? No such thing. I *am* opposed to the ignorant louts that cause their friends, family & neighbors harm & get their unsuspecting dogs killed (while they whiiiine about being sued!).

A thoroughly socialized, well trained, beautifully mannered GSD of good temperament is a terrific deterrent dog. Few families will ever need, or can handle, more than that.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

GSD LOVER, keep doing what you're doing. As your pup matures, you'll learn the hard way. Don't say we didn't warn you. Have you ever thought WHY we're saying all this? And why NO ONE ELSE agrees with you? Have you thought for a second maybe that there are GOOD REASONS why we're posting the way we are? 

To everyone else, it's obvious this guy doesn't "get it" and will never "get it." At least, not until someone like Ladylaw or the other K9 trainers/officers we have on here come post. In the meantime, he'll learn the hard way when one of his kids needs to go to the ER, his dog will need to be put down, and he contributes to another bad statistic against our breed. When people close their eyes, plug their ears, and loudly sing "LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU," no amount of intelligent information will change their minds. This is one of those cases where he'll have to learn when his world falls apart.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

BTW, GSD LOVER, if you want advice from cops, people who raise and train police K9s and actively work police K9s, I suggest you meander over to http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php and post what you've done. You want to hear it straight from the guys who train PPDs and PSDs? There you go. Bring a helmet and a flame suit.


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## eggo520 (Oct 28, 2007)

GSD LOVER, please listen to those who have posted in response to your question. I started training a GSD for search and rescue last summer, and I've learned more about dog behavior and psychology in the last year than I have in my whole life! The people on this board are extremely helpful when it comes to understanding your dog.

Back up for a second and take a different look at the way your dog behaved. Now consider the possibility that she barked, growled and bit out of fear rather than out of protection. Just like tail wagging doesn't always mean a dog is happy, barking and biting doesn't always mean a dog is protective. Good luck with your dog in the future and please stick around and hear what these people have to say.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

What is missing here: Your concern that you have traumatized a puppy.
What will be missing from now on: Her trust in you. Now, her trust can only go so far, after that. Babies her age don't get threatened with their lives during K9 training for a reason.
What surprises me: ALL of us have made mistakes with our dogs at some point, but thank God, we were and are all open to criticism. You are resistant to the good sense offered here by highly experienced trainers.
What saddens me: Not once are you showing concern for HER feelings. Your puppy has no advocat now to defend her from further abusive treatment.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

O.K.

This is so bad and moronic I assumed it was a joke and that you were just trying to get a rise out of people. But then I saw when you joined the board and your other posts and see that you just don't know what you're doing. Let me be clear here... many people that have responded to your question have years of experience actually training protection with GSD's for sport, K-9 and personal protection. Schutzhund is a sport that started as a breed evaluation tool in Germany (it translates to protection dog) and is the foundation that many K-9 and Personal Protection trainers use prior to transitioning the dog to be "street ready". All I am trying to say here is that many of us (myself included, but a few of the posters in this thread like Chris and luvsables have more experience than I do) actually train in protection with (not watching with a box of popcorn, but spending years learning from these trainers while working with our own dogs) qualified professionals that do this for a living including K-9 officers and international competitors in both police and sport. What you have done to this puppy, who according to your other posts was already a bit skittish, is scare the crap out of her at an age where she needs to be built up and carefully socialized so she feels confident. You have created a liability here and unless you do something about it you will regret it. No, she will not attack your immediate family. She will bite a stranger that means no harm because she is learning from you that new people are dangerous. Please get with a trainer.


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Man, the best I can do for you is what you did was misguided. I'm not a K9 trainer but I have been through two K9 academy's with two different GSD's as a handler. I can tell you that what you did would have been far down the line into the training if ever really done at all. This was after months of bullet proof obedience, agility and recall training. Before you make the leap of logic that your dog is so good that it is already doing what a trained K9 does, pretty much any dog would have reacted the same.
What really just blows my mind is that you did it yourself. I don't know if traumatized is the right word but there was definitely an impression made on her mind regarding who she can trust above all others. 
Aside from the questionable judgment of the whole thing, the gillie suit was a bit much, don't you think? I mean, really, dogs are going to react to over-the-top strange things a lot differently. 

I'm perhaps the champion on this board of allowing people to do things how they choose with their own dog, but I think you're way off base here.


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## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

Most of act like you have a 5th grade education!!!! I didnot "TRAMATIZE" my pup,she is doing just fine.And im not going to do it over and over,I wanted to see what she would do.Chris 08 Yes i agree with your post about the ghillie suit,that more or less looked like a swamp monster,than a human.She growls at people that come on to my property that we dont know,but friends of ours that come over,she acts happy,so i dont know if she can sence the that its ok with people we know,vs people we dont.To all the people just saying stupid sh*t,just dont even post,And claiming my dog did it cuz it felt threatend........good lord,you of all people on here should know what that is like.I didnot back her into a corner,you could tell she was "PROTECKTING" my kids,she stood in front of them,not run and hide.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your first post is simply scary. I would never try and get a GSD, at seven months, to be a protection dog. 

Furthermore, based on your background and comments, and my background, it takes tons of work to develop a truly obiendent protection dog.

My GSD was about nine months old when I began to worry, he was simpy to friendly. So I enrolled him in an attack/protection class. While the instructor was trying to get him to play tug, he walked away and took a pee.

My breeder told me not to worry and six months later, as some of you know and were so helpful, Timber had become a bit aggressive and decided his number 1 job was to guard me and my property, atleast from starangers.

Silly as this sounds if we really want an attack/protection dog, that is reliable it takes tons of work. But if we want a companion dog, that will be loyal and protective it is a bit easier.

Based on your initial and subsequent post, learn more, and lean toward the companion GSD.
.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Sorry for two replies in a row, but at seven months this dog attacked her owner and guardian. 

Although one reply specifically called you a name which should have been deleted, I suspect that unless you change the way you deal with the dog it will be euthanized or end upwith a rescue group.

Obviuosly, you have not bonded with the dog, and comments about protection --- best to leave that one alone.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

At seven months, if she is barking at strangers, she is FEARFUL. She is NOT being protective. This puppy needs help. This owner doesn't want to help her, and worse, refuses to realize that this is a fear response.

Confidant, calm pup at 7 months seeing new people show up: "Oh, you're new. What are you about? Got a snack? Didja see my toy?"

Frightened pup: "Oh, no! WHO is THAT?! I've never seen you before!! No, no, no no!!! Go away! No, not closer! Oh, no no no!"


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Agree with what everyone says. People are being kind and restrained, actually. Everyone here that has posted is posting with knowledge and experience, upset at what amounts to psychological abuse to a puppy. 

And it isn't your 7 month's old puppy's job to protect your kids. It is YOUR job to protect your kids, and to protect your dog. 

Where you puppy was standing is meaningless. A prey-driven bark and attack, fear-based bark and attack, or a defensive/protective bark and attack all look and sound the same to the untrained eye. It takes a LOT of training and experience for people to be able to read and interpret the subtle differences in a dog's behaviour, to hear the difference in the bark and see the body language cues. 

I do Schutzhund training too, so I'm not talking out of the top of my head. 
I started with a two year old, and the first year was all fun stuff, building her confidence, never letting her get ovewhelmed, pushing the limits a tiny bit at a time. The LAST thing I want my dog is to be AFRAID of people. That is a recipe for disaster, and more than likely you will have a dog that runs instead of holding her ground and barking, so the whole "let's see what she'll do approach" is really defeating your purpose.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

I think GSD 'Lover' is trolling here because no one can be so naive and ignorant. The funniest part so far was that Chris does't know about GSD's because she breeds schutzhunds...lol

But if this person is really being serious then I think they are in some serious denial and in need of some proper education. Maybe we should all contribute towards the re-homing of the dog?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Well here's my input along with everyone else's..

I high doubt a 7month old puppy will protect anything other than itself at that age.

2nd - growling at strangers at THIS AGE is not something I'd be to proud of.

3rd and final - what do you think that dog is going to do to some "KID" who is a stranger who comes on your property , yelling, waving his arms around , fooling around maybe making alot of noise/commotion? What do you think that dog is going to do?

If you don't get some profesional training now (maybe more for you vs the dog),,we'll be reading in a few months or a year,,how you've had to put your dog down or your getting sued because he has bitten someone..
Just my 2 cents
diane


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## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

LISTEN AND LEARN. Im not training her to be a protective dog,she did that on her own.Growling/low bark is somthing to be proud of,she only does it when me/wife or our kids is around.Thats not being fearful thats be protective and it not "everbody" its people whoa I dont even trust.It may sound weird but she seem to be feeding off my emotions on people.Example A man starts to walk up my drive way in a suspious way, and i was in my garage w/keesha he was looking around like to see if anybody was watching him,and thats about the time she started to growl,he wanted to see if i would buy a neckless off him.....hmmmm....Nther people like my friends or neighbors, she is happy friendly wagging her tail.Thats what "protective" Im talking about.Most of these comments are just people running there mouth,with out any solid information to back it up.To those who have told me in a respective way,thank you! and im not traning my pup to be a protective do,it was a 1 time thing,just to see....mabe it was the wrong way to go about it,but whats been done is done.And to craig 88 yuor an idoit.Im not trolling.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm sure the kids enjoyed that show.

Don't be suprised when they start having nightmares of the 'monster dog' attacking Dad . (I initially had 'mom' in there...for some reason I pictured a woman as I was reading)

And I'm sorry...but this gave me my laugh for the day-
"And she trains schutzhunds and not GSD."


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

"It may sound weird but she seem to be feeding off my emotions on people."

That's exactly what dogs do.

I really suggest going and getting some books on GSDs and getting in touch with a good local trainer.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

I was not gonna post but I have to ...GSD LOVER... PLEASE to yourself... Have YOU ever seen how they train police K9s???? I will guarantee you they will not do this to them at 7 months old.
You are insane!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post668214

She is already skittish. You are encouraging more of this. You should be out there teaching her that EVERYONE is great, because when her natural instincts kick in during maturity you want her to react appropriately and a good GSD will. 

Hope you have good homeowner's insurance.


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## GSD LOVER (Apr 6, 2008)

Again you guys are spoutting,with out any info to back it up,i know what skittish is,and what she did is NOT skittish diana.

Im done here,you guys are just spoutting/running your lips with out any proof,that i have damaged my dog


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## Meb (Oct 18, 2005)

I dont agree with what you did either, but yes what is done is done. We are human and we all make mistakes...hopefully we learn something from our mistakes and move on and try to do better. I have made many mistakes, especially with my first dog Meb. Most in the first year of his life. Oh if only I could go back..... I got Meb in Sept and one of his first experiences with kids was on Halloween when he was 5 months old (we dont have kids). Can you imagine how scared he was when I had him with me at the door with the dressed up "scary" trick or treaters. After awhile he started barking at them and I realized that he was scared. He is now 3 and still barks at kids and I cant trust him with "any" kids even if he know thems. I think he will always be afraid of kids. Please dont take what everyone is saying lightly. We are here to educate each other and help each other out. Some people just seem to react more harsh than others, but they really do know what they are talking about. Please learn from this and take their advice.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Against the stupidity of fools, the very gods themselves fight in vain. It's Schiller if I remember correctly.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

This has gotten a bit silly including the following comment you made.

"LISTEN AND LEARN. Im not training her to be a protective dog,she did that on her own.Growling/low bark is something to be proud of,she only does it when me/wife or our kids is around. Thats not being fearful thats be protective ."

Your comment, and the seven month old pup bit you. Belive me, I know what a protective dog is like, and if Timber ever growled or barked to me, I would be very depressed and ask the folks, on this board, among others for help. 

Why is growling and a slow bark something to be proud of.

You did mention something that I wonder about. Specifically, the dog is wary of strangers, like my GSD. However, a seven month old pup should be mostly friendly, and didn't you also mention the dog was aggressive toward you or the wife.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:you guys are just spoutting/running your lips with out any proof,that i have damaged my dog


You'll get all the proof you'll need one Halloween. 



> Quote:im new to the GSD


That is YOUR quote from your "skiddish" [sic] thread. Most of the people posting are not at all new to GSDs. I find it sadly amusing that you think you know better than people who have been in the breed for years when you have publicly admitted that you are new to the breed. I find it depressing that you don't understand we are trying to save you from a horrible mistake. You are not seeing the forest for the trees. One on Halloween Day, you may. I hope it never happens, but you are wiring a ticking time bomb.


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## CAB (May 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVERAnd to craig 88 yuor an idoit.


I think 'yuor' spelling proves who's the 'idoit' here. Better luck next time at school.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: What surprises me: ALL of us have made mistakes with our dogs at some point, but thank God, we were and are all open to criticism.


Goodness knows this is true for me! 

GSD Lover, I'm hoping you've been educating yourself with all the links we've posted. So much info sometimes I think my head will explode.

And the leerburg discussion forum http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php is very like this one but has many more 'serious' members with protection and ppd/LE backgrounds. So maybe we are all over reacting on this site and they will backup your training method. 

Love to hear what they say, so please post the link here and get back to us with their advice.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

NO ONE has anything to LEARN from YOU. So no, we're not going to 'listen and learn.' Not from someone who knows SQUAT about dogs, darling.

You have a LOT of gall in calling people idiots (as well as telling people how 'wrong' about something they understand far better than you). Congratulations! You've just taught your dog that if someone looks strange, the appropriate response is to bite.

Your dog wasn't 'protective.' She was scared. In your arrogance (and yes, you are downright arrogant, as most ignorant people are), you are unwilling to view your dog's reaction for what it really was: FEAR. What galls most people here is that you just won't admit that what you did was unwise at best, and potentially harmful at worst. 

Most people are willing to learn... you came here to brag about the so-called protective GSD you have. That's nothing to brag about. A 7 month old puppy has no business protecting ANYONE. Would you ask a 9 year old child to protect someone? That's what you just did... expect a CHILD (that's what a PUPPY IS!) to be protective. Dogs need to mature just like human beings do, and at 7 months they are NOT mature.

I just hope that your dog's genetics are good enough to shake off this incident and not cause any permanent damage... because if they are not, you'll end up having to put this dog down in a couple of years due to unwarranted aggression towards someone who 'looks a little funny.'


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

MODERATOR WARNING!!!! To everyone....

Remember, no personal attacks or name calling allowed. From anyone.










How nice would it be if GSD Lover sticks around and learns more about this topic, rather than dropping out entirely. Think about his dog and how much benefit that would be.

What is that saying? 'you can catch more flies with honey.....'


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

For your dog's sake, listen to the people who are all telling you the same thing. Every single one.....same message.... do you think that's an accident?
I don't think it's so much what you did at this point but that it seems you are totally unwilling to even look at the fact you might have something to learn. It's like piling ignorance on top of ignorance rather than getting out the shovel and start the hard work of learning that which you don't know.
How high is your manure pile gonna get?
There's no shame in being uneducated, but being unwilling to GET educated is a whole other matter. You have a life in your hands here.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

You have proven, with nearly every post that you have made, that you are ignorant. This is the definition of the word ignorant so I am not accused of name calling:



> Quote:ignorant Definition adjective
> 
> 
> having little knowledge, education, or experience; uneducated; inexperienced
> lacking knowledge (in a particular area or matter)


There are several people on this board that have replied to this thread that have YEARS of working with WORKING dogs. All working dogs are trained STEP by STEP. All working dogs are started with FUN and interactive training for 12 to 18 months building on the foundation that is set from infant-hood. As the dog matures the training grows along with it. German Shepherd Dogs are not nearly as mature as they may LOOK at 7 months but you are new to the breed. You do not know this. Some GSD are not mentally mature until they are 2.5 to 3 *YEARS* old. A 7 month puppy would be about the same maturity of a 2-4 year old child. Some 4 year old humans are not even in PRESCHOOL at that age much less are they given a M16 and expected to defend the "homeland from the enemy" which is essentially what you expected from your BABY puppy. As stated NUMEROUS times before, the pup reacted with FEAR not "Protection".

As stated before if you do not believe any of our credentials feel free to post this whole scenario on http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

Ohh and please do post a link to the thread as I would enjoy reading it so I can learn more about how to REALLY train a working dog. 



> Quote:I never meant any sarcasim against chris,i was just asking her back ground on training on GSD.And she trains schutzhunds and not GSD










Again see the above definition.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Maggie, my hunch is based on all the replies, this is a dog that will eventualy end up at a shelter. And at seven months iIwould love to take the pup. So easy to deal with.

Obviously, the current owner disagrees with most of us, so when a few more bites happen, the dog will become another shelter animal.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

It's too bad that he wasn't at all open to suggestions/guidance. This is such a great place to learn about training, behavior issues, etc. I feel bad for the dog, him, and his family. I hope he comes back with an open mind--for his dog's sake (and for his friends and family).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Would LOVE to see this thread play out on Leerburg...









He thinks _we're_ bad...









GSD LOVER, the following link is how a PROFESSIONAL tests dogs for proper fight/defense drives. Take careful note of how he reads the dog- if he gets the slightest indication that the dog has nerve issues or isn't mature enough (like your dog), he immediately runs away. This not only removes the threat from the dog's environment but it may also boost the confidence of the dog. I'm no pro, but this sounds like a sound, logical way of testing a dog without destroying it. You may have tested yours but also "destroyed" her in the process.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm
http://loucastle.com/about.htm (Just in case you're not convinced that he is a professional. He is a member of this board as well.)


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMWould LOVE to see this thread play out on Leerburg...
> 
> 
> 
> ...










That would be entertaining wouldn't it!

That Lou Castle article is amazing.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

GSD Lover... the other issue is that you do not have control over your dog's behavior.. 

And, had you had been able to properly 'read' your pup, you would not have been bitten. 

All dogs can and will bite under certain conditions... that doesn't make a dog special, it just proves she could do what a dog will do.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GSD LOVEROK! So my kids are playing outside,and I wanted to see,if she would protect them if some one,came into are backyard.I have a gillie suite...If you dont know what that is,its jupe burlap suite,worn by U.S. snipers to conceal them selfs.Anyways,so I go into the back yard with it on,and as soon as keesha see's me she starts to growl,and took up defenceive stance in front of my kids,as I walked closer,she became more aggresive at me,and was even closing the gap between me and her,I could tell she was gonna attack,but she didnot want to initiate unless she had to,well I walked closer about 20 ft away from my kids,and she attacked me! she did what K9 police dogs do just ran and jumped on me,before i could yell and let her know it was me she did bite me perty good,it drew blood but nothing real bad.I did praise her,on a **** of a job protecting them.i could tell she felt bad for what she did,but she was doing what was right in her mind.Now I hope i didnot disscourage her,if some does come back there,What do you guys think?


Sorry I'm entering this conversation so late. I do feel I needed to say something. Before I start I'll say just mention, I spent 23 years in the military as a dog handler, trainer, instructor and the last 20 years as the trainer for the state police. Altogether, I'm in my 43rd year as a dog trainer, program manager. I've trained, certified and put into service approximately 2,500 patrol dogs over the years. That doesn't count the drug and explosives detectors I've trained. Just trying to present a little bona fides, I guess. 

From the description of events of subject: Very protective @7 months, I see a few things that would concern me a great deal. One, when presented with something the dog didn't understand, it took one of the two options it had available to it; fight or flight. The dog, half-heartedly took the fight option. I say half-hearted, because if it was committed, you would have been seriously injured. The dog, in this instance was acting out of fear. Your description of "growling" and taking up a "defenceive" (sic) stance, is indicitive of fear based behavior. Other indicators are your comments of "she did not want to initiate", a dog not operating out of fear, has not hesitation about initiating contact. Minor stuff that concerns me, the dog bit you and was praised for it. Which is an early lesson for this puppy in; It's ok to bite the boss under certain circumstances. If it's ok to bite the boss under certain circumstances, then certainly it's ok to bite anyone else if I (the dog) think it's necessary. In answer to your final question in your original post, I don't think you discouraged her at all, in fact, I think you may have encouraged her to act on that fear (by biting) because it was a happy ending after it was over. I think what transpired was a big mistake, it can be fixed. I would suggest you read a little about working with fear aggression and what you need to do to make the dog safe. Fear aggression can be a time-bomb, you know what 'gillie" suit will pop up in that dog's mind.

DFrost


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think this thread is probably almost done, but others may read it so I am going to blather for a bit. 

We always see those "when does my puppy become protective?" "congrats, boomer, who went after the mailman today" and then the "need to give my dog up because it bit someone" threads so this one, with its vivid example of someone making a mistake has underlined and bolded all the other types of threads surrounding this idea. 

I have no problem with making mistakes. I am sure I made one (at least) already this morning with the dogs. However, I do have a problem with not being able to admit that one was made. I hope that internally this has happened, because of course someone might defend themselves to people when we feel attacked, but that some processing is happening-I hope!

My background is not in personal protection or Schutzhund type training. My background is in dealing with dogs with poor temperament, bad experiences or lack of socialization who have the impulse to act out and helping to prevent them from doing so. To the point of them being able to do it on their own, without me being right there, holding the leash. In other words, I like to take puppies like this one and strengthen, as much as I can, all of those things so that they can be the safest, happiest dogs possible. 

What I am saying is what happened here is the opposite of what one would do to do that. 

In one of the therapy dog classes I took with my (guessing) Chow-Belgian type mix Ava, the instructor left the building, got a big trenchcoat on, and walked in sort of like Frankenstein. A little Golden, who had some issues, immediately growled and hackled. Now because she was a Golden and not a GSD there wasn't that OMG! LOOK HOW PROTECTIVE SHE IS! COOL! The behavior was recognized for what it was-fearful. I used a happy cheerful voice and Ava was fine. 

And that is the biggest part of this to me. The dog is counting on us to help them identify threat from safety. When we become the threat that is just an awful mess in their world. Castlemaid said that we protect our kids, we protect ourselves, we protect our dogs and that is so true. A dog is not a rifle or inanimate weapon of any kind-a tool. When we get a dog we take responsibility for a living being and need to treat it as such, learning and working toward making its life with us the very best it can be.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Beatifully written Jean.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

To the original poster, GSD Lover.

You have two well thought out posts above from two totally different perspectives. David Frost is very well respected and is someone that I would consider an expert in this area.

I hope that you can take a step back and think about what David and Jean and so many ofther people have posted. 

It sounds like you care about your dog and only want the best.


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## Lisa&Diesel (Jun 8, 2008)

I wish your puppy the best of luck with her life. I hope you don't ruin what could be a wonderful companion for you and your kids.

That was companion, not protection dog.

I am not a trainer and my GSD is the first I have ever owned but I can say that if someone looking strange walked up to my dog that last thing I would want him to do is attack them. He is my friend, my pet, not my protection. 

Your 'pet' GSD does not know who to attack or when to back off. They are not born with the ability to know who is 'good' or 'bad'. You looking scary in your costume is no different in a dog's eyes to a kid dressing up or a man in a uniform. Would you be proud if she bit a 9 yr old in a superhero costume? If they had a mask on how would she know not to attack?

Please stay here and learn about all the great stuff you can do with your pup. And make it your job to protect her not the other way around.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Mr. Frost's post and yours are very helpful. 

Hopefully, the original poster will get the replies on this board some thought. 

I have been around this board for awhile now, and initially was a bit closed minded. However, opening up some and listening to others has helped my dogs. I hope the original poster decides to do the same.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:The dog is counting on us to help them identify threat from safety.


This is (IMO) a very, very important point. I've seen far too many dog owners who are globally 'threatened' by anyone that looks different, acts weird, is young &/or male. Too often they feel it's entirely appropriate when their dog aggresses based on these vague, uncertain fears. This is WRONG, so WRONG, & one reason so many dogs wind up dead 'over protecting' nerve bag owners.

Anyone with a protective dog, or PP dog, needs to carefully, thoroughly assess when it truly is ok for their dogs to act. Dogs, particular breeds & communities are all at risk when dogs are encouraged/permitted to aggress at people guilty of nothing but being different or odd.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I hope this thread can be made a sticky. I can't tell you how many times people have thought I should "test" Dante - both as a pup and now.

Perhaps sometime in the future someone thinking of doing this with their pup will read this and decide not too.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

GSD lover... please educate us on the board, what type of a dog is a confident dog and what does the dog do that it seems confident to you? 
Also, why did you get a GSD? What are your plans for your puppy?


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

In light of reading this topic, I just now figured out Chris Wild is a female.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dfrost and Jean, thank you for your very informative posts.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: wrennyIn light of reading this topic, I just now figured out Chris Wild is a female.


I'm pretty sure her husband Tim who's on this board could have helped you with that too!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: wrennyIn light of reading this topic, I just now figured out Chris Wild is a female.
> ...


























Thanks for the laugh this morning.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

come on everybody do we have to be so harsh?? i think that GSDlover got the hint after the first page of bashing. im not saying what GSDlover did was the right thing to do. i think that this little "experiment" should have been done with proffesionals and training but must we criticize and name call?? no, this is not a way to get a point across... im sure that GSDlover is not the first person in this world to EVER do this, kind of sad if u ask me. building a fear driven dog is one those reasons dogs build behavioral problems and end up in the possession of AC, and the owner in court...


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2come on everybody do we have to be so harsh?? i think that GSDlover got the hint after the first page of bashing. im not saying what GSDlover did was the right thing to do. i think that this little "experiment" should have been done with proffesionals and training but must we criticize and name call?? no, this is not a way to get a point across... im sure that GSDlover is not the first person in this world to EVER do this, kind of sad if u ask me. building a fear driven dog is one those reasons dogs build behavioral problems and end up in the possession of AC, and the owner in court...


In essence, most of us didn't say anything different that what you just said. Most weren't harsh, the OP however, didn't feel the technical level of a lot of posters was adequate to give advice concerning what some of us felt was a problem. I must have glanced over any name calling, I usually don't pay attention to that sort of thing anyway.

DFrost


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: lcht2come on everybody do we have to be so harsh?? i think that GSDlover got the hint after the first page of bashing. im not saying what GSDlover did was the right thing to do. i think that this little "experiment" should have been done with proffesionals and training but must we criticize and name call?? no, this is not a way to get a point across... im sure that GSDlover is not the first person in this world to EVER do this, kind of sad if u ask me. building a fear driven dog is one those reasons dogs build behavioral problems and end up in the possession of AC, and the owner in court...


lcht2, I don't think people with limited experience should be playing games and messing with a young dogs head. As you called it an experiment, experiment means that you really don't have a clue what the out come will be. Trainers do not experiement with protection training, they have usually worked with the dog and have worked with so many dogs have a solid idea on how the dog is going to react. 

I am not an expert, but have dealt with dogs that were negatively imprinted as a pup or young dog. I believe that females are a bit more prone to hang on to those negative experiences more than males are. First thing is that the dog should always be able to depend on it's handler, if it was the handler who frightened the dog then you have lost some of the trust of your dog. It might not show up right now, things may look just hunky dory, but maybe some time down the line this female is going to have an event that triggers this memory and she will react the same way she did as a pup. 

Most people who train K-9's or PPD's do not play the bad guy in training with their dog. The realationship is important, you can't be the bad guy and the dogs handler in most cases.

Val


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: lcht2come on everybody do we have to be so harsh?? i think that GSDlover got the hint after the first page of bashing. im not saying what GSDlover did was the right thing to do. i think that this little "experiment" should have been done with proffesionals and training but must we criticize and name call?? no, this is not a way to get a point across... im sure that GSDlover is not the first person in this world to EVER do this, kind of sad if u ask me. building a fear driven dog is one those reasons dogs build behavioral problems and end up in the possession of AC, and the owner in court...
> ...


like i said, a professional and TRAINING. i was not saying they would do this with a 7 month old pup. they would work and train the dog and the training would be done out of "joy and fun" and like u said, trust, instead of fear. that saying, the pup would also have to have a good temperment, nerves and proper socialization.


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## jmont (Jun 15, 2008)

OMG is this person for real...???


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## jmont (Jun 15, 2008)

GSD Lover.... I'm new to the forums as well, but obviously being that this is germanshepherds.com many of the posters here know exactly what they are talking about when it comes to GSD's. That is why we joined right? I do understand it may be very hard to read and accepts some of the criticisms of your ill advised behavior, but the posters here don't care about your feelings more than they care about the well being of your dog. Maybe instead of trying so hard to defend your actions, you should listen and grow from the wisdom that surrounds us all in the forums. I too own a GSD puppy (6month) and I also have 4 young children and I can understand your eagerness to test your dogs protective nature, after all at 7 month I'm sure your dog looks like a ferocious beast, but it's not... It's is a puppy, still silly and goofy at times and still bumps his head on corners stuff. It's still learning about the outside world and what is a threat, and whats not. Just remember that GSD's were bread to be protective. Their nature is to protect those in the pack that he has learned with time and maturity to TRUST, RESPECT, and FOLLOW. Love your dog by teaching them positive lessons, not scary ones.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I think it's great that everyone here is posting and trying to help, but I think the OP is no longer reading this thread, so it's kinda pointless IMO to keep repeating what others said which the OP refused to accept. Just a thought.


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## jmont (Jun 15, 2008)

Yea... Your right!!!! I'm new here and just excited to post









Shutting up now....lol


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Welcome CaesarVonBlondie

If the OP is no longer hear that is his choice. Maybe there is someone else reading the board who thinks testing a 7 month old to see if will protect the kids is a really good idea. Maybe this thread would help them understand that a 7 month old isn't ready for that time of pressure.

Val


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I hate it when we get posters who bail cause no one agrees with them!!!! Instead of being open minded enough to stay and maybe have a shift in what they THOUGHT them knew (I'd like to blame it on him being a 'guy' with the testosterone that involves. But we've got too many balanced guys on this site to let me get away with that







)

HEY, did anyone check out and see if he went to the forum on leerburg.com and get any different responses from them? They have alot more 'protection' type members so (theoretically) would fit his needs of people with vast experience and knowledge in that.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

MRL, I did hear a loud bang the other day. Either it was the space shuttle on reentry, or it was the entire Leerburg membership coming down on this guy like a ton of bricks.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMMRL, I did hear a loud bang the other day. Either it was the space shuttle on reentry, or it was the entire Leerburg membership coming down on this guy like a ton of bricks.


Now THAT was too funny!!!!!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Diana, do post a link! Should be a good read!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Oh I didn't check to see if there was one. Just being a smart---.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerWelcome CaesarVonBlondie
> 
> If the OP is no longer hear that is his choice. Maybe there is someone else reading the board who thinks testing a 7 month old to see if will protect the kids is a really good idea. Maybe this thread would help them understand that a 7 month old isn't ready for that time of pressure.
> 
> Val


Val, you're right, didn't even think about it. CaesarVonBlondie, I didn't mean for you to shut up or anything, I was just trying to state a point, is all. Welcome to the boards!


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## jmont (Jun 15, 2008)

It's all to the good GSDOwner2008. Thanks for the pleasant welcome, its great to be here. I look forward to learning more about the breed.


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## bosco146 (Jan 30, 2004)

How bout the poster get some professional training first.


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## chump (Mar 14, 2006)

My GSD is only 5 months old. She will bark at some people once in awhile, when she does she gets a strong Fuj and corrected. I know she isn't being protective beacause her heckles go up. And there is no way a pup that young has any protective instincts. You're suppose to protect your dog


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Rather than correct a 5 month old pup, why not just redirect the behavior. By doing that you can teach the dog a command to cease the aggression. "Hackling" at that age is a sign of fear, or not understanding what in the world is going on around him/her. Correcting that behavior, is not, in my opinion, the best way to go about stopping it.

DFrost


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