# Line Breeding



## MegansGrace

What's the difference between a breeding that is a "line breeding" vs one that is not?

Pros/cons? Do any of you look for one over the other?

Thanks!


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## Emoore

"Line Breeding" just means some of the dogs are related. Generally there's considered to be a difference between in-breeding, which is breeding siblings or parent to child, and line-breeding, which is breeding more distant relatives. My pup is linebred 3-3 on Sando vom Haus Iris, which just means Sando is his great-grandfather twice. Both grandfathers are Sando sons. 

Linebreeding itself isn't a good or a bad thing; it's more about which particular dogs are being bred. Obviously you don't want too much line breeding, but a certain amount is not necessarily bad.


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## wolfstraum

there is line breeding and back massing - which is line breeding behind the first 5 generations.....what is important is that the breeder knows the pros and cons of the genetics of the dogs being line bred upon.....for example when you line breed and/or backmass on a dog who is or has alot of NZ - and consistantly get several pups with poor hips - or line breed on a dog who is "known" to have/produce back problems, or temperament/nerve problems, even when the parents themselves are sound... you have to know the negatives and the positives of a line breeding.

there is more to putting a breeding together than just big names in a pedigree or how many BSP dogs are in the first 3 generations.....

Lee


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## Pepper311

Line breeding in dogs eek. I hope that's not common. I have been keeping and breeding fish for 13 years and line breeding is very common with guppies, discus, gold fish, koi, and others. even in fish you will see problems with line breeding. 

Line-Breeding -

Line-breeding is another way to help "set" or "fix" desirable traits. With line-breeding you breed animals that are related, but you are also routinely introducing genes from other lines into the genetic mix. It takes longer to fix the desirable traits this way, but doing so lowers the risk of those problems associated with repeated in-breeding. With a tight line-breeding you might find the same 3, 4 or more dogs showing up numerous times in a 5 generation pedigree.

Here's an example of a tightly line-bred pedigree (I've identified those dogs whose names show up more than once by color)Loose line-breeding over successive generations will result in more variations of physical appearance than would in-breeding or tight line-breeding, but will keep the physical look and structure within the same general size and shape, it also carries fewer long term risks.

And a sample of loose line-breeding (as with the above pedigree I'll identify dogs whose names repeat by color):

I foud this info on this site 
Breeding Methods


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## Andaka

Linebreeding is as good or as bad as the dogs linebred on.


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## HeidiW

Interesting, thanks for the link Pepper! What does NZ and BSP stand for ?


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## Liesje

BSP = Bundessieger Prufung, like the German Schutzhund national championship

NZ = "noch zugelassen", an A3 rating for hip under the German system (like OFA borderline or fair).


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## Blkgp1

If a dogs sire is also the grandfather, that would be inbreeding and not line breeding, correct?


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## WesS

Blkgp1 said:


> If a dogs sire is also the grandfather, that would be inbreeding and not line breeding, correct?


How is it possible for a dog to have the same sire and grandfather? 
How can your dad also be your grandfather?


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## Blkgp1

WesS said:


> How is it possible for a dog to have the same sire and grandfather?
> How can your dad also be your grandfather?




my sisters dog is a female. her father is also the father of her mother. 

so her dog and her dogs mom- both have the same father.....


To me that is inbreeding- she is trying to say it is line breeding.


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## WesS

Pepper311 said:


> Line breeding in dogs eek. I hope that's not common. I have been keeping and breeding fish for 13 years and line breeding is very common with guppies, discus, gold fish, koi, and others. even in fish you will see problems with line breeding.
> 
> Line-Breeding -
> 
> Line-breeding is another way to help "set" or "fix" desirable traits. With line-breeding you breed animals that are related, but you are also routinely introducing genes from other lines into the genetic mix. It takes longer to fix the desirable traits this way, but doing so lowers the risk of those problems associated with repeated in-breeding. With a tight line-breeding you might find the same 3, 4 or more dogs showing up numerous times in a 5 generation pedigree.
> 
> Here's an example of a tightly line-bred pedigree (I've identified those dogs whose names show up more than once by color)Loose line-breeding over successive generations will result in more variations of physical appearance than would in-breeding or tight line-breeding, but will keep the physical look and structure within the same general size and shape, it also carries fewer long term risks.
> 
> And a sample of loose line-breeding (as with the above pedigree I'll identify dogs whose names repeat by color):
> 
> I foud this info on this site
> Breeding Methods


Sorry to tell you... But all pure breds are generally line-bred. Often Inbred too. At least early on in development of a breed. Its the only way to standardise a breed to look a certain way. There was a post about golden retrievers living less and less, with more conditions. Everyones reasons were diet vaccines and so on. All true. But I think it also has to do with standard breeding practises I believe.

The day we see some sort of qualifications, maybe a university degree to be a breeder, or at least some sort of expert guidance, it will always be a free for all with pseudoscience on what is best for dogs, and how to standardise pure-breds.


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## katieliz

dog's sire is X. dog's dam's sire is X.
probably other ways too.


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## katieliz

it's called "solidifying type" and in the right hands can produce some spectacular dogs.


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## zudnic

The positive, a breeder can double the chance of having the type they are looking for. The negative they also double the chances of the negatives in a line. 

I know in Rottweiler's, believe tight line breeding has been a major negative. Breeders in that breed tend to gravitate to the top winning show dog as stud. Breeders who don't use the stud directly, tend to breed the relatives. One popular stud dog, people are now advertising their lines are free of him because he produced so bad. 

I'm seeing offspring with bad hearts, double rows of teeth, bad bites, hip dysplasia and other problems like early cancer, coming out of top studs people are tightly line breeding on in Rottweiler's. The breeders tend to hide these issues. Been on a Rottweiler forum since 98 and the my dog is diagnosed with cancer posts have increased. Plus these other issues. It can be a bad thing. This is why I'm not getting another Rottweiler now. 

breeding is about preserving a breed, optimizing health, structure and functionality as well as physical and metal soundness and abilities. When it turns into about what wins in the show ring, well it becomes a bad thing!


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## cliffson1

@Zudnic.....very insightful post.....you have wisdom exceeding many who have decades in the breed.


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## zudnic

Thanks...... In Rottweiler's, the breeders tend to ignore and cover up the bad line breeding can bring. It can be just as bad as good. The internet we know learn more about the bad.


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## carmspack

WesS said:


> How is it possible for a dog to have the same sire and grandfather?
> How can your dad also be your grandfather?


because the dog had a mother .

this means that the dog was bred to his daughter


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## carmspack

WesS said:


> Sorry to tell you... But all pure breds are generally line-bred. Often Inbred too. At least early on in development of a breed. Its the only way to standardise a breed to look a certain way. There was a post about golden retrievers living less and less, with more conditions. Everyones reasons were diet vaccines and so on. All true. But I think it also has to do with standard breeding practises I believe.
> 
> The day we see some sort of qualifications, maybe a university degree to be a breeder, or at least some sort of expert guidance, it will always be a free for all with pseudoscience on what is best for dogs, and how to standardise pure-breds.


 
there was a person who had a university degree and you said his input had zero value 

that was Dr Carmen Battaglia Breeding Better Dogs | About Carmen Battaglia


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## zudnic

Depends on the degree. My Dad has a doctorate in mathematics or economics, forget that's how much he's used it! His degree would be useless for dog breeding. My vet on the other hand breeds border collies, Id put some extra points on her breeding program, just because she is an actual dog doctor! 

One of the reasons for going GSD was more genetic diversity. I do however believe the show lines are too focused on conformation. Show kennels have now bent the standard to fit the show dogs. But in the same token, the working lines have also lost conformation and in the work lines conformation is all over the map. 

Solution some tight line breeding and then out cross to show or work lines, depending on what lines they breed could be a good thing! 

I like working lines and dogs that would be rated SG in the sieger show ring!


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## WesS

carmspack said:


> there was a person who had a university degree and you said his input had zero value
> 
> that was Dr Carmen Battaglia Breeding Better Dogs | About Carmen Battaglia


I also remember explicitly stating why. That conversation is in another thread. Must we say the same things over? Somebody stated I would rather trust 'somebody with a phD'

His degrees and PhD's are in Crime and Sociology. Where the connection to Dog Genetics and Breeding come in, is beyond me.
Completely different context of conversation. Completely different application. 

This is like linking a dog thread with regards to a human health condition. its about CONTEXT.


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## dogfaeries

Wait... So to be a breeder, you need a Masters or a PHD in genetics, or be a veterinarian? Is this what you are saying?


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## WesS

dogfaeries said:


> Wait... So to be a breeder, you need a Masters or a PHD in genetics, or be a veterinarian? Is this what you are saying?



No. Check the other thread. It's not relevant here. She threw an offball here from another thread.

If you must know I was referring to somebody leading a large organization like the akc. And what I said is immaterial here. You need to find the other thread. You can discuss it there. I can't even remember exactly what I said or didn't say or which thread. If you find it you can 'challenge' what I said there.

But if a breeder did have such qualifications would be pretty cool. Didn't say they need anything. After all, the only thing you really need to be a breeder is a male and a female dog. Every other consideration is pretty much a + or a -.


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## zudnic

A degree is not needed. However if they do have one, Id give them bonus marks. North America does need a breed warden system to improve the breed. Need a person, who knows the breed and genetics overseeing the litters. Genetic testing needs to be done on all the offspring and the results recorded. Need more tools, not necessarily better educated breeders.


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## wolfstraum

Back to linebreeding!!!

So many litters are inadvertantly linebred.....people choose 2 dogs because they like them - own them - the dog is in their club - is owned by their trainer - is owned by a friend.....they might see the line breeding (and ignore or are totally ignorant! of the backmassing)....and they say - oh gee - this litter will be wonderful because it is linebred on so and so....when you ask WHY they want that linebreeding - the answer is usually - well he won XYZ or everyone knows how good he was....but no one usually has a clue WHY!!!!

A friend of mine is doing a breeding with a linebreeding (3-4) on my suggestion - she bought a pup from me years ago - I suggested a breeding for that pup - and the only male in the litter is a VERY sucessful competition dog....she has a granddaughter of the female....therefore my female will be in 4th generation....and that female was just bred to a grandson of my female... My female, Basha, had 4 litters for me....of those 4 litters, only 3 females were titled and bred - all three produced dogs IN THEIR FIRST LITTERS who have been trialed nationally, and the two older are very sucessful and competitive - the 3rd is young and I expect he will do well also.

The line breeding is intentional....to get a strong female who will be a good producer...to get super ball drive, stellar nerves and very confident, happy to work dogs....there have been no obvious consistant health issues, the pair is DM clear and both have good hips and elbows....the production of the female being line bred on is very good on hips and elbows....

Lee


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## Xeph

> . Need more tools, not necessarily better educated breeders.


We have plenty of tools. Can't make people use them.



> Need a person, who knows the breed and genetics overseeing the litters


Why? I've certainly not been convinced that breed wardens have helped anything.

Breeding is and always will be largely subjective. Nothing to be done about that. No such thing as an unbiased human.

In regards to linebreeding, my first litter was linebred, and it had nothing to do with the winning the animals in the pedigree did. It's nice, but wasn't my first concern. I linebred primarily for the great longevity, herding instinct, and stronger nerves (yes, in AmLines).

Aside from longevity, which remains to be seen, I am extremely pleased with what I got.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Line breeding is yucky.. Perhaps someone could explain to me how the kennel Staatmachts has done so well..or how about all those Mals where there are generations of tight line breeding is common..? I must be missing something.


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## wolfstraum

Staatsmacht has done well as he produces a high number of litters where he produceds dogs with extreme drive and temperament and in Germany these dogs are normally kennel dogs not pets. The training is available and geared toward that type of dog. The environment for a working dog is very different in Europe -most of these pups would not thrive or be managable in a normal home here. Experienced IPO people probably - novice handlers - unless you train with Stefan, and follow his program, not so much. I believe he has very few pups who are NOT extreme in drive from a conversation we had. Once a few were successful and noticed, more get sold... thus making a kennel well known. 


Mals - same thing.....extreme drive - but way nervy is so common as well....

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1

So they work to well...seems like a good problem to have. Maybe because he solidified type through consistent line breeding on traits conductive to good work.

My Mal has more Nerve then any GSD I have had lately, works better too..but I have seen some nervy ones too depends on the bloodline.


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