# What do you think of this virtual mating?



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

So, my breeder is daydreaming about me keeping Vinca intact and someday breeding her to this male Havoc Vom Haus Juros in Canada, owned by Monique Anstee. My breeder would like to keep a pup out of such a breeding. Of course, this would all be pending hip and health clearances, titles, and my tolerance for keeping an intact bitch. Breeding wasn't even on my radar until my breeder brought it up. But anyway... thoughts on this mating check?

Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your breeder has forgot more than most people on this forum know, listen to your breeder if you have the wherewithall to do a breeding.JMO


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Freestep said:


> So, my breeder is daydreaming about me keeping Vinca intact and someday breeding her to this male Havoc Vom Haus Juros in Canada, owned by Monique Anstee. My breeder would like to keep a pup out of such a breeding. Of course, this would all be pending hip and health clearances, titles, and my tolerance for keeping an intact bitch. Breeding wasn't even on my radar until my breeder brought it up. But anyway... thoughts on this mating check?
> 
> Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


Also might consider what you get out of the breeding (and the overall purpose of it as well). Do you want to breed your dog?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Do *I* want to breed my dog? I hadn't even thought about it, I was planning on having her spayed. Since it was my breeder that brought it up, and she is the one who suggested this male, I have to consider. Thus, I'm bringing it up here to see what other people's opinions are. I'm not well-versed enough to know what is being brought to the table by the combination of bloodlines.

I trust my breeder's judgement, I'm just not sure if *I* want to have a breeding bitch. If I decided to go ahead with it, I would lease my Vinca back, and have the breeder take care of the whole thing. I'm not a breeder, so it's best left in the hands of people who know what they are doing.

What would I get out of it? I don't know. Maybe a little pride, if the litter turned out well.  Somewhere down the line I might want another Vinca, she is really turning out to be the perfect pup for me and I'd be lucky to have a GSD like her for the rest of my life. The breeder would want to keep a male pup out of this breeding, so there's that. I kind of owe her, she's been very kind to me.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I've said to people considering this in the past--it's YOUR blood, sweat, tears, and hard work going into the bitch. You who risks losing her if something goes wrong. 

Something to consider. Things aren't always candy coated and happy in the land of birthing and raising dogs. How would your relationship be with your breeder if you left her in her care to have a litter and something bad happened?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Something to consider. Things aren't always candy coated and happy in the land of birthing and raising dogs. How would your relationship be with your breeder if you left her in her care to have a litter and something bad happened?


Oh believe me, I know breeding isn't candyland. To me, it's more like a shop of horrors.  That's why I've never done it. 

But if I did, I feel that Vinca would be much safer in the hands of my breeder than she would be with me. Julia has boatloads of experience with breeding and I have none. If something bad happened, of course I'd be devastated, but I think there'd be much less chance of it there than here.

And of course, the least risky is not doing it at all.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

But spaying her is risky, too. And it seems that no one but selzer talks about that.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> But spaying her is risky, too. And it seems that no one but selzer talks about that.


Right. Of course, there's a risk in everything.

I was having a hard enough time deciding *when* to spay, now I have to decide *whether* to spay? Lord have mercy.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Freestep, the issue is really whether you want to lease her back to the breeder for the litter. I am sure that Julia would tell you she expects the same things that I or others on this form who are familar with these genetics would expect. Actually her info will be more accurate than ours as she has developed her lines over many years and TESTED her lines in trials and real life. So I think you already have knowledge of what the breeding should produce.....to lease or not to lease....that is the question.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I am sure that Julia would tell you she expects the same things that I or others on this form who are familar with these genetics would expect.


True enough, but opinions being what they are, I'm sure someone has another perspective, or has a comment on the dogs that would be linebred on. 

Anyone?



> .....to lease or not to lease....that is the question.


No, the real question is to spay or not to spay. If I decided to breed, there's no question--she would go back to the breeder. She knows what she's doing; I don't!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I opt for educated opinions over opinions....hey but thats just me:crazy:.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I opt for educated opinions over opinions....hey but thats just me:crazy:.


Well, I thought that was implied. Do you not think your opinion is educated enough?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Compared to Julia on this particular breeding?....not really. I think we would agree on the general traits this breeding would bring, but my long range view does not compare to her in house view. Especially when she has developed the lines of one of the dogs AND her knowledge base is pretty awesome also. She is one of those people you park under and absorb knowledge from. Now if it wasn't one of her dogs involved, then yes I could give an educated opinion compared to hers.....this case..I don't think I would serve you as well as she.
One of the things about me is that I am not on an ego trip. I speak on things I have first hand or close knowledge of...if I can be helpful. BUT, I also defer to those that I can see are more knowledgable or closer to a situation than I am. That way I can learn and not let my ignorance get in the way of learning. That's one of the reasons I don't comment on individual ASL or WGSL dogs that are current. I don't play in that areana to know specifics....I can only comment on what i see in reference to their involvement outside of the show world. Hope that makes sense as I'm not trying to be funny or challenge you...just thought you have access to the best info you can get of expectations of this breeding.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I think we would agree on the general traits this breeding would bring, but my long range view does not compare to her in house view.


Humor me.  What, in your long range view, are the general traits this breeding would bring? You can tell me via PM if you want, but I know a lot of other people are as curious as I am, as to which lines tend to produce what.

Julia discovered, upon closer inspection, that the three dogs that would be linebred on are noch, noch, and fast normal. So let's keep this breeding rhetorical. Other than marginal hips, what would you expect this breeding to produce?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nice try, I don't necessarily see the hip situation as marginal, so I will defer to more knowledgeable people.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Nice try,


Harumph. :smirk:



> I don't necessarily see the hip situation as marginal, so I will defer to more knowledgeable people.


You're more knowledgeable than I am!

Since cliffson is afraid to speak up,  anyone else care to comment? Be it good or bad, I want to hear it. It's a rhetorical question, so don't anyone think there's going to be any hard feelings--I'm just trying to increase my knowledge of bloodlines.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My last comment on this to you....you are trying to move too fast with this bloodline thing and are only going to get confused and misguided. I see this often with people who are new handlers with their dogs....they get to a certain point, they get hooked, and then they start moving too fast for them and the dog. The BIGGEST mistake most handlers make especially with a good dog is that they move too fast. Especially when training with a group, and other dogs the same age or less, may or maynot be progressing faster, and they want to move faster than the FOUNDATION present in the dog(and them). Then they attend a seminar of some sort and try to incorporate that stuff into their training and presto a recipe for disaster. 
The same with bloodlines, you are not going to learn about bloodlines effectively with FOUNDATION. Foundation must be consistent and as accurate as possible. This requires a balanced approach to acquiring information, (experience in person, mentoring, seminar, internet, conversations with creditable people, and TIME!)
When you have access to information on a specific dog or line from a person who really knows the in and outs, first you have to absorb all you can and understand fully what this person can tell you about these dogs/lines. This is menteeing, or receiving mentorship. Oftentimes, when you add a bunch of additional info on the subject matter, some of which is pure speculation and others inaccurate you have the same scenario as the person training and moving too fast without foundation. It would be like asking me to comment on Wildhaus or Carmspack dogs WHEN you have direct access to them and they are willing to share with you foundation stuff about their dogs.(I assume as you have one of Julia's dogs she would love to educate you on her stock).
My point is that I don't mind looking at pedigrees with others,Carmen, Chris, Christine, Lee, and others, and we pretty much see the same things generally and don't mind sharing it. But the foundation of making sense of bloddlines is contained in seeing the dogs, seeing the dogs work, having a mentor go into depth with you, correct information, and learning all this so as to give you foundation TO understand the analysis and terminology in the analysis. Most of us are not going to comment on another experts line, especially in an open forum because we realize one; we don't know as much about the dogs/line as the owner, and two; because you set yourself up to give confusing info . 
Hope this makes sense.....as one person said in one of these threads, sometimes they don't even know what I am saying because they are not at this point. You can't learn 40 years of stuff in 3 years, because the FOUNDATION will not be solid.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I agree that I ought to have a better foundation of knowledge regarding bloodlines, but I gotta start somewhere! Sorry for asking. 

I have noticed that people are rather tight-lipped about bloodlines and particular dogs, and I can understand why people might be unwilling to talk publicly. I can also understand why newbies might see this community as "elitist"--not wanting to share information. That's okay, I have a mentor, I just didn't want to overload her with a kabillion questions.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good one Cliff .
the pedigree presented is to "other" 

even I , if I had that female, would have long conversations with Julia --- ask her what she had in mind . Julia is a breeder who does build on the generations collecting the genetics for subtle qualities . 
I would have one of her dogs in a shot .

Pass this one in front of her --

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=591057&modir=722526

5-4 on Greg Zitadellenburg

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591057 
pedigree "normal" throughout , something I look for 
Griz himself is OFA fair (3years) elbows normal -- and he has been producing several service dogs including a bomb dog -- 

by the way love those kilts that you have .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> pedigree "normal" throughout , something I look for
> Griz himself is OFA fair (3years) elbows normal -- and he has been producing several service dogs including a bomb dog --


Interesting. Is this Griz one of your dogs, Carmen? Or a dog you know personally?



> by the way love those kilts that you have .


Thanks! Where did you see them? I love my Utilikilts. Way off topic, but they are the most practical garments I own, when I wear them I don't have to carry a purse. And I have to say, a man in a kilt is a thing of glory.

UTILIKILTS - American Made Utility Kilts for Everyday Wear


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I own him. 
I know that Julia, like myself , selects dogs with high instinct for tracking , one of the reasons that I bought this dog . Lots of FH's and FH 3s - lines to old herding , another thing that Julia seems to build on (Bert Knufken) Good character coming through from the Bernd Lierberg , Pushka haus Himpel , Held Ritterberg, Grand Himpel --more on Enno Beilstein ---Eros Busecker Schloss with the "click" of Mike Bungalow and Bernd Lierberg on Winni's 

valuable resource for old herding lines - Winni Geiersnest (Bert Knufken , Enno Beilstein going to Blanka Mummelsee the female that essentially founded the OLD kirschental , Uran Kirschental with fabulous Fenga _Blanka again --who brings in known tracking produce Racker Itztal -Arthus so Bert Knufken again--

Asko Lutter with his strong dam --- nice to see so many strong SCH H 3 females 

Askia Froschgraben and Perry Beilstein (more herding!!!) more Bernd .

this pedigree has a theme. Each generation respectful of the past. Building strong on strong . No wild compensations .

He has produced very well for me , Silva -- bomb dog, Bella narc dog , second generation 2 SWAT dual dogs from one litter , current litter Elle-Kira bed bug dog in training , brother Ruddy well under way in narcotics, 2 pups held back for police -- all are easy easy easy to train , offer up behaviours , natural trackers , keen scent dogs --.

Birch-Bark Hill here is a Griswald pup at work , born Nov 3 2010 

One of the males I held back STANLEY "STAN" got a little carried away impressed with his own male power -- so I paired him with a kindly , older female, he tried his nonsense and she was like the senior citizen that looks the punk in the eye and whacks him with her purse. Problem solved . He has been "told".

the thing is that there are a lot of good dogs that are outside of the schutzhund format --- so it is impossible to know or find them all . 

If Julia recommended the Juros dog then I would seriously think about her choice , but do let her have a look at Griswald .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Excellent info, thank you Carmen! Would love to see photos of your Griz.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't know if Elitest and Ego trip is the same thing..., either way I have given very much of my limited knowledge to this forum with no strings attached....and yet
Peace Out!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I have noticed that people are rather tight-lipped about bloodlines and particular dogs, and I can understand why people might be unwilling to talk publicly. I can also understand why newbies might see this community as "elitist"--not wanting to share information. .


Yikes! That's fighting words! Let's not piss those people off who share a CRAPLOAD of info with a ton of strangers!  I think there are a LOT of people are more than willing to share the wealth of knowledge they have gained over 30 or more years of doing this. 

In this instance, I believe Cliff is probably hesitant to say something because everyone has different opinions and you have this breeders dog and are dealing with the breeder in potentially breeding the dog through her. Why open a can of worms about a particular pairing that she is very interested in?

I'm shocked people would say those who share ANY of their words of wisdom can come across as "elitist." this is by far one of the most open forums I've been to. You can actually ask a question about a line and get a good answer rather than 2 dozen snide comments.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't know if Elitest and Ego trip is the same thing..., either way I have given very much of my limited knowledge to this forum with no strings attached....and yet
> Peace Out!



I have no experience with breeding, so I can't add anything.

I would like to say though that I read everything I can from Cliff, Carmspack, Chriswildhaus and others. 

Especially like Vandal since that is where my guy came from. 

Their years of experience are a great source of learning.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I have noticed that people are rather tight-lipped about bloodlines and particular dogs, and I can understand why people might be unwilling to talk publicly. I can also understand why newbies might see this community as "elitist"--not wanting to share information. That's okay, I have a mentor, I just didn't want to overload her with a kabillion questions.


Yeah most people are tight lipped when it comes to bloodlines and understandable as people who REALLY know what they are talking about have been researching, talking & listening for over 30 years and they get every schmuck trying to grease them for info. They won't give out info to every joe blow that asks and to really study a pedigree it takes time and not 5-10 minutes. **** Ive offered Cliffson dinner, brandy & a cigar for some info!

This place as "elitist"?? Not hardly. It ain't hard to get info from people as everyone is free to give. The hard part is getting info from those who you know for sure, KNOW what they are talking about. The people with direct or 2nd hand knowledge is what I try to stick with. Plus the info that you REALLY want to know, people will never put on the internet. It would only be by word of mouth.

I've gotten lucky to have 1 mentor now as he is my breeder and it helps he is just down the road. Im STILL working on another person.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> Yikes! That's fighting words! Let's not piss those people off who share a CRAPLOAD of info with a ton of strangers!  I think there are a LOT of people are more than willing to share the wealth of knowledge they have gained over 30 or more years of doing this.
> 
> In this instance, I believe Cliff is probably hesitant to say something because everyone has different opinions and you have this breeders dog and are dealing with the breeder in potentially breeding the dog through her. Why open a can of worms about a particular pairing that she is very interested in?
> 
> I'm shocked people would say those who share ANY of their words of wisdom can come across as "elitist." this is by far one of the most open forums I've been to. You can actually ask a question about a line and get a good answer rather than 2 dozen snide comments.


Easy now.  I said I DO understand why people might be hesitant to give their opinion in certain cases. I NEVER said that people who DO share information are "elitist"--the opposite is true! 

At the same time, I can also understand why newbies might interpret it as "elitist" if they get a message like "Look, you don't know enough about bloodlines, you need to learn more, but *I'm* not going to tell you anything." See how that sounds? I'm not offended, I'm just sayin', I can see how a newbie could take it that way.

But I'm no newbie, just a longtime GSD owner who hasn't studied bloodlines enough and wants to learn more. I'll be the first one to admit I don't know enough, which is why I'm here, asking questions! Eons ago I belonged to the DDRGSD list, which was a great group of people who were very forthcoming with information and knowledge. Eventually, however, I got tired of watching people snark and snipe at each other, and I left the group. I shouldn't have.

To anyone willing to share their knowledge and experience--Carmen comes to mind--thank you!! To those who prefer to withhold their opinions, no harm, no foul. 

Edited to add: the reason I don't know much about bloodlines is that I've never had an interest in breeding. I could have been using the past 15 years or so to educate myself better, but as a non-breeder I didn't think I needed to know. I figured as long as I have a breeder I can trust, I could simply rely on her to make breeding decisions, while I reap the benefits! Selfish, I know.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

eace:


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Freestep said:


> At the same time, I can also understand why newbies might interpret it as "elitist" if they get a message like "Look, you don't know enough about bloodlines, you need to learn more, but *I'm* not going to tell you anything." See how that sounds? I'm not offended, I'm just sayin', I can see how a newbie could take it that way.


You need to think for a second as to WHY in this instance certain people are not inserting their opinion here. You have a breeder you are working with and esentially getting mentored by. 

He's telling you to watch and learn from the person who knows the most about the dogs in question.

Cliff shares a wealth of knowledge on these forums ALL the time


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> You need to think for a second as to WHY in this instance certain people are not inserting their opinion here. You have a breeder you are working with and esentially getting mentored by.
> 
> He's telling you to watch and learn from the person who knows the most about the dogs in question.


I DO understand that, thank you.  

Now, to get back to the subject, in case anyone still wants to comment... 

upon looking closer at the virtual mating we find that the 3 dogs linebred on are noch, noch, and fast normal. My breeder says "maybe not the best to linebreed on," and I agree. But is that always an automatic disqualification?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Freestep said:


> upon looking closer at the virtual mating we find that the 3 dogs linebred on are noch, noch, and fast normal. My breeder says "maybe not the best to linebreed on," and I agree. But is that always an automatic disqualification?


I don't think it's automatic--some people wouldn't even bother to look, so it depends heavily on the person making the breeding decision. I would be ok personally if it were linebreeding on 1 nz dog and 2 normal dogs, but 3 nz would make me hesitate. I'd look at the dogs in between and the over- all production history of the nz dogs if it was a breeding I'd really like to do.

Having seen video of the male dog in question working, I personally would wonder if it were adding too many of the same things to the pot--too much biddability, perhaps. But then what is Vinca like--what is she going to need to balance her out in a breeding? Julia has undeniable talent for making these combinations and she likely knows more about the proposed stud dog than I do.

I think Vinca is gorgeous and she comes from a family of dogs known for their versatile working abilities, and if she grows up as nicely as she looks to do, in temperament and health as well as looks, it sure would be nice to see her bloodlines continue on to another generation.

For me, deciding whether to breed a dog has preliminary elimination steps--does the dog have the basic health requirements? Does the dog have the basic conformation requirements or are the faults few enough or minor enough to be acceptable (for example, if the dog had Labrador ears, that would be sufficient for me to pass on breeding a dog); I also consider whether it would be OK if all or 50% of the puppies had the same problem(s) as the parent; and, most basically, if every pup was only as good as the parent but no better, would I be happy enough with that? 

Then I look at reasons TO breed--what does the dog offer in terms of temperament, working ability, and the genetics of the breed?

With Vinca, at her age, you're still going through the elimination rounds.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Having seen video of the male dog in question working, I personally would wonder if it were adding too many of the same things to the pot--too much biddability, perhaps. But then what is Vinca like--what is she going to need to balance her out in a breeding?


Is there such a thing as "too much" biddability?  Vinca is very biddable and handler-focused. She is moderate in her drive, doesn't show the crazy ball drive that my Luka does, but she is just a baby still, and I haven't done a lot of drive-building with her. She does show strong nerve and has a great "off" switch--she's a pleasure to have in the house. And, as it turns out, she has an aptitude for herding! Her preliminary hip and elbow x-rays look good, too.

But at this point, everything is just daydreaming until she matures a little bit and we see what shakes out. Like I said, breeding wasn't even on my radar until Julia brought it up... and owning an intact bitch is not what I had on my dance card. :crazy:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Is there such a thing as "too much" biddability?


Yes. But it goes from being bidability to being oversensitive and soft. Or it can.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Yes. But it goes from being bidability to being oversensitive and soft. Or it can.


Ah, yes. But doesn't sensitivity and softness have more to do with weak nerve than biddability? I know some dogs that are handler-sensitive can be very hard when working. I have noticed that in my own dogs, they could run through a razor-wire topped wall of fire when they're in drive, and not give out a peep, but if I have to DO something to them? Oh, the drama.  The sensitivity there seems to be more of a "pack" thing than an environmental thing, if that makes sense.


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