# Confused again. Rally A vs. B



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I think I'm doing this wrong. 

Doerak got his RN in Rally Novice A - my first AKC title ever - last March. I was under the impression that since I have titled a dog, then I switch to Rally Novice B for my other dogs. Is this wrong? 

Reading the rule book today I'm confused. 

I entered Ciana in Rally Novice B this month. And I'm entering Balto in Rally Novice B in September. 

What about Rally Advanced? I never titled a dog in Rally Advanced, do I enter all my dogs in Rally Adv A, or B, or whatever they entered for Novice?

???????????????????????????? My head hurts!

And more...it looks like I can trial my dogs in Rally Novice until the dog earns a Rally Advanced title.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Tha rally rules are confusing and appear inconsistent. I've looked into it quite a bit and it breaks down like this:

If a dog does not have an obedience title, he can be entered in rally Novice A. With an OB title it must be entered in Novice B. Once you as handler title a dog in Novice A, then any subsequent dogs go into Novice B.

However, it's different in Advanced. Once again, dogs with OB titles must go into Adv. B. But dogs without an OB title can go into Adv. A, even if their Novice title came from B. And that is even if you have titled other dogs. The same goes for Excellent when you move from Advanced. Dogs without OB titles go to A, dogs with OB titles go to B, until the Excellent title is finished. Then you must go to B for the RAE in both Advanced and Excellent.

If you put a dog in B that is eligible for A, that's okay and the Q's will count. But if you put a dog in A, that is not eligible for A, then the Q's won't count.

Here's some examples from my dogs to illustrate:

Star was my first rally dog. She had her CD at the time so she was entered in Novice B. When she finished her RN she had to go to Adv. B. Then Exc. B for her RE and RAE.

Then I started showing Rio before Star earned her RN, he doesn't have any OB titles, so he went into Novice A, until Star finished her RN then I had to put him in Novice B to finish his RN. Then he went to Advanced A, followed by Excellent A. If I had put him in Adv. or Exc. B that would have been okay too. Next he goes to Exc. B and Adv. B for the RAE.

I was showing Kayto after Star got her RN. Kayto started in Novice B, then I put her in Advanced B, thinking I had to (although she could have gone into A). She finished her RA in B and then I put her in Excellent A and she finished her RE with all legs from Excellent A. She was still eligible for Exc. A because she didn't have her CD yet, although she had one leg. Then she went into Adv. B and Exc. B for her RAE.

I hope I haven't confused matters more. Looking at my examples reminds me of questions from my law school entrance exam!


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

I forgot to answer your question specifically.

Since Doerak has his RN, you must enter Ciana and Balto in Novice B. Then, provided none of them have a CD, all three of them can go into Advanced A.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Whew! Thanks. Looks like I at least started it correctly.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: agilegsdsHere's some examples from my dogs to illustrate:
> 
> Star was my first rally dog. She had her CD at the time so she was entered in Novice B. When she finished her RN she had to go to Adv. B. Then Exc. B for her RE and RAE.
> 
> Then I started showing Rio before Star earned her RN, he doesn't have any OB titles, so he went into Novice A, until Star finished her RN then I had to put him in Novice B to finish his RN. Then he went to Advanced A, followed by Excellent A. If I had put him in Adv. or Exc. B that would have been okay too. Next he goes to Exc. B and Adv. B for the RAE.


The way I understand it is that if the handler has earned an AKC obedience or rally title with any dog, then they are no longer eligible to enter a dog into a Novice A class (rally or obedience). So if you had a CD on Star already, Rio should have been in Novice B because of your level of experience. 

Maybe it's changed, but that's how it was when I showed. I couldn't show my first rally dog in Novice A regardless of her titles (or lack of titles) because my level of experience included obedience titles. In fact, most registries won't allow you to compete in Novice A if you have titles from other registries (although AKC doesn't acknowledge other titles). I wasn't eligible to show in Novice A in Canada or in ASCA or in UKC because I'd earned AKC obedience titles already.

Clear as mud, isn't it? *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Melanie, I think you're right about that with Star and Rio in Novice A. Now that I think back, and it's been a few years, Star had finished her CD right after I entered Rio in Novice A. We're talking a matter of a week or so. I contacted the trial secretary and asked what to do about Rio, but since the trial had already closed, she told me to keep Rio in A. Which turned out to be the correct thing when I looked back at the regs and what to do with closing dates. So thanks for clarifying that, but it doesn't make it any less muddy, that's for sure.

I'm sure everyone's clear on it now, right???


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I started with Arwen and Rushie in Rally Novice A, I had two legs on both of them in the Madison (3 day show). I put Jenna and Babs in the first day and they both got legs in Novice A, I put Babs and Rushie in the second day and Rushie finished his RN that day, but the show was closed and you cannot make a lateral move, so, I put Arwen and Babsy in the third day and they both finished their titles in Rally Novice A that day. 

I started showing in May and finished Arwen, Babsy, and Rushie in July, with excellent results and only NQing my first time in the ring for blowing by a sign. Rally B was more of a challenge. And finishing Jenna was a trip. No NQs but we only got a third place on her and only because we showed at a specialty where there was only three dogs entered. Jenna had a great run, ninety something, but the other entrant had two dogs and they were polished. Her final leg, I found I was competing against people with OTCH??? and MACH??? Well, I decided that a qualifying ribbon was green for grand. 

Heidi and Whitney were a lot better than Jenna but neither of them placed because I showed them in a three day show at the IX center in Cleveland and it was packed. 

I am very happy to be showing Arwen in Obedience Novice A. So far we have taken first twice, at an all breed show (Madison again). If I qualify in the specialty Friday, she will finish her title with three blue ribbons -- that would be a great way to retire my old girl. 

As rally is supposed to be an entrance to obedience or agility, I am glad that the rules for obedience Novice A are different than Rally novice A, where the dog CAN have an RN and still be eligible for obedience Novice A; but the dog CANNOT have a CD and be eligible for a Rally Novice A. Rally Novice A is for green dogs and green handlers. I kind of like that. It is a good way to start. You can get some ribbons and get properly hooked, before they throw you to the sharks, before you agree that Green is Glorious.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The A classes are great for newcomers to the sport. I really appreciate the concept. You only get one Novice A dog. I worked hard to enter a well-trained dog in Novice A and got some nice wins. Unless you are really anxious to show, you can wait until your dog is ready to give a nice performance. Rally is great for "getting ready". 

I just realized I have a dog entered in Rally Novice B in couple of weeks and he has never seen a sign!! I better to get to work!

I have two Excellent legs on my old girl we have never worked excellent signs other than at the show. The nice thing about Rally is that the skills are those you teach a dog getting ready for obedience competition. I think Rally has been a good addition to the sport.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I just enter the B classes, I don't have to think too much that way!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I thought for Rally, the class depends on the DOG not the handler? My understanding is that if the DOG does not already have a title at that level AND does not have a CD or higher obedience title, it's an A dog. If the dog had NO rally titles but HAD a CD, it would enter Novice B. If it had NO CD but already finished the RE and was entering say Advanced for the RAE, it would be Advanced B. 

I say this because the last show I was at I competed against an acquaintance of mine who has a dog with over 100 titles on him and another with 88 titles on her and she was in my Advance A class with her young dog who did not have a CD. One day I beat her, the next day she beat me.

I asked several people at the show how the classes work and they all told me it's based on the dog, not the handler like the other sports are. So ANY dog that does not have a CD can be in Novice, Advanced, or Excellent A in rally (and would switch to Adv or Exc B to finish the RAE b/c they've already titled at those levels or would always be in B if the dog already had a CD or better).

Please correct me if I'm wrong...


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Novice is based on the dog and the handler. Advanced and Excellent is based on the dog.

So what happened in your Advanced A class was correct. But when that dog was in Novice, it would have had to show in B.

There is a lot of confusion out there regarding this, which is why I think the Advanced A and Excellent A classes are so small. I think people who were in Novice B think they have to go to Advanced B, which is not always the case.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

My head still hurts and I am rules person.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWMy head still hurts and I am rules person.


LOL!!! I think I like your way, just enter B!

I'd post the regs here, except they're in PDF and I don't know how to copy and paste from PDF.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: agilegsdsNovice is based on the dog and the handler. Advanced and Excellent is based on the dog.
> 
> So what happened in your Advanced A class was correct. But when that dog was in Novice, it would have had to show in B.
> 
> There is a lot of confusion out there regarding this, which is why I think the Advanced A and Excellent A classes are so small. I think people who were in Novice B think they have to go to Advanced B, which is not always the case.


Gotcha. So, let me reiterate and please tell me if this is correct:

Novice:
- DOG has NO rally or ob titles, owner has never handled a dog with rally or ob titles - NOVICE A
- DOG has NO titles, owner HAS handled another dog with rally and/or ob titles - NOVICE B
- DOG has a CD title, but no rally titles, owner has or hasn't handled a dog with rally or ob titles (doesn't matter) - NOVICE B

Advanced:
- DOG has NO rally or ob titles besides the RN, owner has or hasn't handled a dog with rally or ob titles (doesn't matter) - ADVANCED A (but could enter B...)
- DOG has the RA and is working on RAE - ADVANCED B
- DOG has the RN AND CD or higher ob title - ADVANCED B

Excellent:
- same as above but the rally titles are up one (RE working RAE, RA and CD...)


So, my dog Kenya has RA and RN and we were in A both times (she has no other ob titles and she is my first dog). Assuming my future puppy does rally before obedience, he will have to enter Novice B, but then can enter Advanced A?

Personally I like that you can still go back to the A class in Advanced and Excellent. There are so many people I see at every show doing RAE after RAE and they can do any course like a robot. That doesn't bother me at all, but I like that I, as a total noob to both competitive obedience and dog ownership in general, can compete against other newbies and/or younger dogs. Maybe I'm selfish, but it's nice to place with a score of 98 when you'd have to have 100 pts and be top three on time to place in a lot of the B classes I've watched.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Yes! Very nice summary Lies!

And that is correct, your future puppy would enter Novice B then Adv. A.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, and all the A classes have to be the owner or a member of the owners household. But in B you can have a handler. 

I think the Advanced and Excellent B classes are for those dogs earning their RAE. 

I like the fact that you can go back to A in advanced too. I have only tried it at some fun matches with a couple of my dogs. Did ok with Arwen, flunked out with Rushie though. Green dogs can be with green dogs.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Liesje - you pretty much have it! And in all honesty, it really doesn't matter if it's A or B because the classes are the same and the judging is the same (unless for some reason there's a different judge for the two classes). The placement ribbons are really immaterial in the long run - no title certificate lists placements or scores. And after you trial for awhile you start to rate your own performances and are more pleased with your scores than you are your placings. With Khana's three times in Rally Excellent, she got three placings but was the only qualifying dog twice ... *L* .. so I'm much more pleased that she earned 95's then getting first place ribbons.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

One thing I would like to add to the discussion is that the judging is the same in the A classes versus the B classes, as far as what is needed to qualify. The differences between the classes, and mostly Advanced and Excellent, is in placements because the B classes often have multiple UDX dogs (like UDX5 etc. or even OTCH dogs). There are a lot of UDX dogs entered in the B classes in my area because their owners either want to gain additional titles or it fills their free time at OB trials. So the A classes may help balance the scale, but they don't take away from the overall accomplishments of the dogs entered in A. 

Let's hear it for the A dogs!!!!!


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