# 5-Month-Old Fear Aggressive Or Protective?



## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Lately, my 5-month-old male GSD has been exhibiting some very concerning behaviour. 

He has never been a people dog. When we first got him, he was 11-weeks-old and timid, but not aggressive, towards strangers. E.g. at puppy school, he would hide behind me if someone tried to pet him. He is also frightened of certain sounds, such as clanking metal, rattling coins, ice cubes being shaken out of the tray, etc. 

His behaviour has gotten increasingly worse and unpredictable. E.g. on walks in quiet and empty/near empty streets, he will occasionally bark and/or lunge at a person (it's always a single person or a couple, rather than a group of people) walking or running towards us. Today, a woman appeared out of nowhere in our empty street; he was barking and lunging at her so furiously that he choked himself (on his flat collar) and scared her to death. However, he is perfectly fine/normal if we're walking in a crowded and busy street or area. 

If someone pets him, he will be fine initially (e.g. he will either turn his head away or sit and tolerate the pet), but if they continue petting him, he will start barking and lunging at them. He's great with the family (all 5 of us) and other dogs, including unknown/strange dogs. If a stranger pets him and they have a dog, he's fine (no barking or lunging), but it may be because he's distracted and excited by their dog. 

He graduated from puppy school and is currently attending a basic obedience course, but, to be honest, I'm dissatisfied with the obedience course trainer, primarily because she employs too many corrections, adopts a 'one size fits all' approach and has no experience with GSDs. I've tried to socialise him as much as possible with people, but I don't trust him entirely around strangers, I don't have a wide/extensive social circle and our home doesn't receive many visitors. On this note, when we do have visitors, he barks at them for a few minutes, but then calms down when they let him sniff them and offer him a treat. 

Is my puppy going through a fear stage? I've read that the first fear period occurs from 12-16 weeks and the second period of fear occurs from 8-16 months. 

Is my puppy fear aggressive, just plain aggressive or protective? If it's relevant, his father was a guard dog. 

Is it time for me to call in a behaviourist or can I manage this on my own (through lots of positive training techniques, patience, consistency and repetition)? 

Any comments are greatly appreciated.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

When you say he's barking and lunging at strangers - what do you think would happen if you let go of the lead? 
What do you do when he does it?

He needs to learn that lunging at people is absolutely unacceptable behaviour.
It sounds to me like you need some help from a person thats confident and competent in dealing with a reactive dog like yours.
To me it sounds like he has no respect for you and doesn't see you as the dominant in your relationship. At 5 month old he's getting into the early teenage stage and will be starting to push his boundaries with you even more.
He needs to learn that he can rely on you to handle any situation, at the moment he seems to think it's up to him to decide if someone is a threat or when they are allowed to pay him attention and when not. 
If I were you I would try and get help from a professional that you trust. 
Having a dog thats reactive to people is such a huge liability, but I don't doubt you will be able to manage him with time and persistence.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Mooch said:


> When you say he's barking and lunging at strangers - what do you think would happen if you let go of the lead?
> What do you do when he does it?


If I were to let go of the leash, he would run straight up to them and bark at them until I call him off. 

This brings me to an incident at the local off-leash park a few days ago. I was doing some training with him in an empty area of the park, around 50m from the main area (where all of the dogs and owners were gathered). 

He was focused on me until a man and his young son approached, trying to engage me in conversation. My dog was already in a drop-stay position, but I could see that he was fixating on them, so I gave a short, quick response to their question and moved my dog and I away from them. My dog began barking and then lunging at them, but I body blocked him, had a firm grasp on his leash, moved further away, said "quiet" and told him to sit-stay. He stopped barking and did sit-stay. 

At this stage, I was facing my dog, trying to engage his attention, so my back was to the father and the son. I assumed that they had vacated the area, as they moved quickly away when he started barking. I waited until he looked me in the eyes, then (here is an example of my extreme stupidity) I took off his leash, told him to stay, waited until he looked me in the eyes again and released him with an “OK”. I thought that he would run into the main oval, where all of his dog friends were, and play/socialise, as he normally does. Instead, he ran up to the man and his son, who, unbeknownst to me, were still watching us from a distance, and barked at them until I told him to “come” to me. 

When he barks at people in the street, I say "quiet", quickly walk away from the person and attempt to divert his attention to his favourite squeaky toy. I would use treats, but he's not very food motivated. 

When be lunges or is about to lunge at people in the street, I say "leave it" and quickly walk away from the person.



Mooch said:


> If I were you I would try and get help from a professional that you trust.
> Having a dog thats reactive to people is such a huge liability, but I don't doubt you will be able to manage him with time and persistence.


Yep, deep down, I know that I need to get professional help. Do you know what I should be looking for in a behaviourist or trainer? E.g. positive only; someone who practises dominance theory; somebody who corrects through the use of choke chains, prong collars; etc.?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

At eleven weeks old a puppy that is timid, and shrinking behind its owner in non threatening situations is not indicative of good nerve or good temperament. Now this could partially be the result of him not being socialized from 8 weeks to 11 weeks when you got him. But, truthfully a marginable pup in temperament would allow this to have as much impact as you describe. More than likely you are dealing with genetics and a loss socialization period from 8 to 11 weeks. You have done the right thing with the obedience class, though the persistence of the problems you describe indicate it may be more than just socialization. 
You can certainly benefit from a behaviorist to zero in on things to build stableness. Good Luck


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Look for a behaviorist. Look for one that has experience with GSD and large working breeds. With Woolf, we had tried the PO, didn't work so good, and now with a behaviorist using a balanced approach and making huge progress.

Change out his flat collar for a martingale. Dogs can learn to squirm out of flat collars, martingales tighten not allowing it to slip over the head (doesn't choke).

Instead of letting the person/stranger pet him, have them stand still and let him choose to be petted ie walking up to them for a sniff/nudging the hand. Instead of them petting him on the head, scratch under the chin and neck. If he chooses to hide behind you, don't force him to tolerate being petted, but also don't let him hide; step to the side so he isn't behind you.

Your pup isn't being protective, what you are seeing is fear and without patient training can keep progressing. If you will post where you are located and/or add it to your information someone may be able to recommend a good behaviorist in your area.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Check this group:
shy-k9s : shy-k9s

It is worth it just for the archives, plenty of information there to read and think about. 

I have fearful dogs and train for basic behaviors using positive methods (think motivational/Volhard, relationship/Clothier as a guide). Clickers are something they respond to quickly and well, and seem to enjoy. I don't do things like free shaping because they are kind of nervous and I don't want them to have to guess what I want (because I am not that good at free shaping - people who do it well probably don't stress the dog, I don't know what I am doing enough). I do a lot of guiding and leading. I am very clear. A lot of laughing. Because if I am laughing and having a good time, they are less nervous - nothing to see her, move along, the crazy lady is having a giggle. 

That Yahoo group should have some information on choosing a trainer/behaviorist. I like that he's not afraid of dogs! That means you can find a confident, happy dog (and it may not be a thinking dog like a GSD - it might be a sillier dog) in training classes to partner up on for walks. Your dog will see some new behaviors - he may not want to participate in them but he can watch. I have a new pup who is friendly and I've taken my brain injured dog who is super shy (but way less so than the catatonic dog she was!) and she has approached and been petted by twice as many people in the 4 months than she has in 8 years. He's magic! 

But before that, I protected the heck out of her as needed because I knew that her bite threshold was low (much improved and as close to 0 risk as can be now). She knew that if she was not wanting to be bothered, she could step behind me and that was it, pressure off her. I posted a how to here: What do you tell people? (







1 2) My protection has resulted in 0 bites for her in 8 years - my adorable dog that everyone wants
to touch - knock wood, this is a good thing! She knows she will never be in a position to be defensive because I am in charge. I don't need to use corrections because of the relationship and trust. 

Some things that help these dogs build up - the relationship with you, tricks, agility and nose work. 
Since he is good with other dogs, you are many steps ahead of someone with a reactive to people and dogs dog!

But please check out the group and glad you are here.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have to come to terms that this is not a stage . 
all the signs were there at 11 weeks of age, probably you could spot them when the dog was 7 weeks of age, his littermates and either one or both parents were similar.
The flat collar and restraining a dog who is barking at a target is only amping the drive he is in. This is a common method in sport , frustration builds drive . 
"If someone pets him, he will be fine initially (e.g. he will either turn his head away " the dog is telling you right there he doesn't like the attention . He is in effective avoiding . When it becomes too much for him to bear he reacts by barking and lunging.
The moment you realized that you had lost the dogs attention because he was focusing on the approaching father and son I would have gathered the dog and done some pattern where the focus was shifted back on me . You waited too long . You should have quick and short with the dog, not the person. The dog is impacting how you YOU conduct yourself -- can't stop , can't do this, can't talk -- the dog needs to accommodate himself to you . He is fearful . If people want to pet just be courteous and tell them the dog doesn't enjoy it , which is the truth. 
I would not have this dog at the dog park . He needs to have intense focus on you. When he begins to crumble and wants to avoid something in the environment he should look to you. Do work with him that makes him come out a winner so that he develops trust in your leadership . You can't count on the dog , he needs to count on you. 
No dog park -- let all fun come from you "the source" .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

at the dog park there is a constant change in dynamics. There is no point where your dog's status is constant . Not knowing leads to insecurity and anxiety . 
Shy and timid dogs need to know where they stand . 
Depending on which dogs are in the park your dog could be the target of a mob reaction - be swarmed by the bully dogs . Then you really have a worse situation on your hands.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Thank you all for your advice. It’s confirmed what I've thought all along – that he’s fear aggressive, not just protective or extremely alert. Now, I just have to convince my family, who are all in denial about his behaviour. They think that he’ll grow out of it, he’s just in a fear period, he’s a good guard dog, GSDs aren’t supposed to be friendly towards strangers, etc. 

Twyla – I don’t have a Martingale collar, but I do own a choke chain, as it was recommended by the obedience course trainer for heeling work. I haven’t used it in weeks because I encountered some success teaching/training my puppy to heel and social/loose leash walk on a flat collar. However, I may resume using it, 
because his recent fear aggressive behaviour has also coincided with him taking me for a walk (e.g. pulling and sniffing everywhere), unless you think that a Martingale is a better option (?). 

JeanK – Thank you so much for all of the links, particularly the one to the thread about what to say to people who want to pet your reactive dog. The tricky part is when people don’t ask, but quickly pet my dog as he’s walking or running past them; this happens all of the time at the dog park. 

Carmspack – Oddly, he’s not at all timid or shy around other dogs, but the exact opposite. He loves playing with other dogs (e.g. if I bring a ball to play fetch with him, he’ll run after the ball, but drop it as soon as he sees another dog to play with) and is very confident around all types of dogs (big, small, puppies, adults, submissive, dominant, etc.). A few people at the park have commented that he’s a dominant dog, because he will sometimes attempt to mount a dog (invariably, a bigger and older male dog), which I correct.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

piquant said:


> Twyla – I don’t have a Martingale collar, but I do own a choke chain, as it was recommended by the obedience course trainer for heeling work. I haven’t used it in weeks because I encountered some success teaching/training my puppy to heel and social/loose leash walk on a flat collar. However, I may resume using it,
> because his recent fear aggressive behaviour has also coincided with him taking me for a walk (e.g. pulling and sniffing everywhere), unless you think that a Martingale is a better option (?).


Definitely a martingale.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

because his recent fear aggressive behaviour has also coincided with him taking me for a walk (e.g. pulling and sniffing everywhere), unless you think that a Martingale is a better option (?). 

when the dog is out with you he should be paying attention to you. The dog is going out on a walk with you, not you going with the dog as he makes his rounds. No more sniffing and pulling -- the dog is not connected to you . 

" A few people at the park have commented that he’s a dominant dog, because he will sometimes attempt to mount a dog (invariably, a bigger and older male dog), which I correct. "

not - and boy oh boy, one day the little "punk" dog going around mounting will do it to the WRONG dog, the male that just will not have any of this sort of thing and that will be big big trouble.

Do things which create a connection to you. Even in the ball play at the park the dog is marginally involved with the game you are playing - the moment a distraction comes along, the other dog, then you are forgotten about, left standing in the cold . Too much attraction to dogs.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Hi all,

Here's an update on the situation since I last posted. 

The good: 

- I bought some new squeaky, squishy toys to distract my dog with on walks when I notice him beginning to fixate on people. He loves anything squeaky, so the toys worked in redirecting his attention. He didn't bark at anyone on our walks today. 

- At the off-leash park, I played fetch and chasey with him the entire time to create a stronger connection/bond, as per carmspack's suggestion: 



carmspack said:


> Do things which create a connection to you. Even in the ball play at the park the dog is marginally involved with the game you are playing - the moment a distraction comes along, the other dog, then you are forgotten about, left standing in the cold . Too much attraction to dogs.


Occasionally, he would run up to a nearby dog for a sniff (or a dog would run up to him for a sniff), but he always returned to me in a matter of seconds, and I had no trouble obtaining and maintaining his attention.

I know that off-leash/dog parks aren't well regarded on this forum, but I feel that it's important to expose him to as many dogs and people as possible, for both socialisation and focus purposes.

- He didn't pull or sniff as much on our walks today. I haven't purchased a Martingale collar yet (I'll do that tomorrow). I'm not sure if this is the right approach, but I just say 'uh uh', shake a bottle filled with rocks and stop walking as soon as he sniffs or pulls. 

The bad:

- He barked aggressively at two people (both women) for no reason today at the off-leash park. They were just standing by themselves, minding their own attention. Fortunately, I quickly redirected his attention to a squeaky ball. 

- He barked for 5 minutes when a delivery man rang the doorbell this morning. And, for the first time, he barked aggressively at me after I signed for the package and shut the front door. 

- He mounted a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, much to the annoyance of her owner. He didn't mount another dog after I leashed him and gave him a time-out (sit-stay). 

I've also contacted a behaviourist who has experience with GSDs, fearful dogs, fear aggressive dogs, puppies with behavioural problems, etc. I'm hopeful that she'll be able to help us.  

Once again, thank you all for your assistance. This forum is an invaluable source of information.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

You can expose your dog to situations without having him off lead. You're running a huge risk with your dog by continuing to have him off lead. Either he's going to bite someone, or he's going to get into a fight with another dog. Either way, you're going to get sued. It could cost your dog his life. There's NO reason to have your dog off lead out in public like this. When you have a FA or just aggressive dog, you have a greater responsibility to the public. It's your choice to have a dog like this out in public, and you need to be aware of the possible consequences for that choice. You're risking other people's safety and other people's dog's safety every time you do this. Please keep your dog leashed out it public.


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## Fraulein (Aug 30, 2012)

I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue with your dog. I've dealt with a similar issue a few years back. I had a Great Pyreenes. She was given to me at 8 weeks by my uncle. I ABSOLUTLY ADORED that dog. She was my baby. Now, she didn't like my other dog, period. She wasn't to playful with my kids. Whenever my husband would talk to her she would growl and lunge towards him. If she was eating and anyone walked by her (excluding me) she would growl and snap. She would listen to me. I had her for a few months thinking the behavior would go away. Then one day my husband called for her to come because he was feeding her and she flipped out. And I should add, this dog was NEVER hit. We always used positive reinforcement. So, it was a tough choice but I rehomed her when she was 5 months old. I gave her to a friend that lived on a farm.The dog never changed even with ten acres of freedom. She bite my friends husband and blocked my friend in her car. She was trying to get out of the car and opened the door and the dog started freaking out. Three other puppies were adopted by the same parents, different litter and they were all fine. So, my friend rehomed the dog as well. She was just too much of a liability.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Fraulein said:


> I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue with your dog. I've dealt with a similar issue a few years back. I had a Great Pyreenes. She was given to me at 8 weeks by my uncle. I ABSOLUTLY ADORED that dog. She was my baby. Now, she didn't like my other dog, period. She wasn't to playful with my kids. Whenever my husband would talk to her she would growl and lunge towards him. If she was eating and anyone walked by her (excluding me) she would growl and snap. She would listen to me. I had her for a few months thinking the behavior would go away. Then one day my husband called for her to come because he was feeding her and she flipped out. And I should add, this dog was NEVER hit. We always used positive reinforcement. So, it was a tough choice but I rehomed her when she was 5 months old. I gave her to a friend that lived on a farm.The dog never changed even with ten acres of freedom. She bite my friends husband and blocked my friend in her car. She was trying to get out of the car and opened the door and the dog started freaking out. Three other puppies were adopted by the same parents, different litter and they were all fine. So, my friend rehomed the dog as well. She was just too much of a liability.


Rehoming a dog like that is never a solution because you are just relocating the problem. Then being rehomed and rehomed again, deeply limits her chances for a good life. most dogs like that end up dead, either in a back yard from neglect or abuse, or PTS in a shelter because they failed their temperament test.
If you cannot fix the problem and you have tried everything, the safest thing to do is put the dog to sleep (IMO) to keep the public safe. In the meantime consider muzzle training these dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This may help: Fearfuldogs.com

From this message board, I've learned that a young adult or adult fearful dog "protects" even when there is nothing to "protect" from.

If you are giving off "everything is okay, no need to fear" signals, your dog should be looking at you and watching you for decisions on who is "bad" and who isn't. 

It is stressful to have a fearful dog and it's not for everyone. I won't have one again, after about 18mos. spent with an ill, anxious and FA dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

First...don't allow this dog off leash. And don't think that just because he walks in heal one day he will do it the next. Same with the recall...I actually find it quite interesting that you can call your dog off at 5 months of age when its interested in something else. One of these days, without constant work, he won't just come back to you after barking at a person or mounting another dog.

This age is very tricky...they just kind of stop listening. I had pretty good recall before 6 months of age, but my dog was still very much all about me and needing my protection. At about 6 months old he realized he was big enough to do his own thing and without that leash on I had no power. For a few months I wouldn't even say "come" when he was off lead, and we worked very hard to make sure that he would return to me no matter what he was doing.

You're also very lucky that staffy didn't do anything when it was mounted. I'll tell you this, if your pup mounted my dog, he would've received a **** of a correction, one that YOU wouldn't be very happy with.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Jag said:


> You can expose your dog to situations without having him off lead.


There are two main reasons why I have him off-leash: to train his recall and to calm him down, as prior to the incident at the park yesterday (where he was barked at the two women), he was only reactive on a leash. 



Jag said:


> You're running a huge risk with your dog by continuing to have him off lead. Either he's going to bite someone, or he's going to get into a fight with another dog. Either way, you're going to get sued. It could cost your dog his life. There's NO reason to have your dog off lead out in public like this.


The park incident was the first time that he has ever barked at someone in the park. I was shocked. I think that you're right; from now onwards, I'm either not going to take him to the park or I'll keep him leashed there. 



Fraulein said:


> I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue with your dog.


Thanks.  



msvette2u said:


> From this message board, I've learned that a young adult or adult fearful dog "protects" even when there is nothing to "protect" from.


At obedience school today, the trainer said that he's not a fearful or fearful aggressive dog, but an extremely dominant dog who is, as she put it, "learning that he has a voice" (hence the barking) and is at the age where he's "challenging his rank in the pack" (hence the barking and lunging at strangers who come near me) ... I'm not sure what to think of her opinion. She brought up an example of his dominance: my dog was being handled by a family member around 5m away from where the trainer and I were standing. As soon as he saw the trainer, whom he dislikes (after she rough handled him during a few demonstrations by, e.g., choking him using the choke chain) and I talking, he began barking.



msvette2u said:


> If you are giving off "everything is okay, no need to fear" signals, your dog should be looking at you and watching you for decisions on who is "bad" and who isn't.


Whenever someone is coming towards us in the street, I inadvertently tense up, which my dog must sense (he's very sensitive to my emotions). 



martemchik said:


> One of these days, without constant work, he won't just come back to you after barking at a person or mounting another dog.


Yes, this is my fear. But how can I test his recall without allowing him off-leash in a high distraction environment?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> As soon as he saw the trainer, whom he dislikes (after she rough handled him during a few demonstrations by, e.g., choking him using the choke chain) and I talking, he began barking.


Time to find a new trainer. Like...yesterday.
Anyone who calls themselves a trainer and chokes a puppy with a choke chain has no freaking clue what they are doing, IMO.
OH, and "dominance" is the "go to diagnosis" and means "I have no clue what's going on with this puppy but if I choke it and toss it around and pin it down, it ought to shape up" 

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong Start implementing some of these techniques today and ditch the trainer.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

A better way to train recall is to have him on a long line where the command isn't optional... no matter what the distractions. You can still practice around the distractions (if you're keeping others safe from your dog) AND the dog doesn't have a choice about returning to you. I also think you need a new trainer. This pup showed some 'classic' fear behaviors at a much younger age. With the right type of training and evaluation, you have a chance at managing these behaviors before they get worse or he hurts someone or another dog. I know it's not fun to have to deal with all of this. However, there is help out there...which could make things easier for both of you. Good luck!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah...your trainer should've told you not to leave him off lead for recalls. I always trained on a lead (20 ft) so that I can reel him in/correct when he didn't respond. All you do by allowing him off lead and "testing" him is teach him that he doesn't always have to come when you say "come." Dogs don't learn like people, they are very yes/no.

You also don't need to have your 5 month old in a "high distraction environment" to train. Trust me, he won't learn any better there. Is it a good place to see how close you are to perfection? YES! But it is not somewhere where they learn anything. I never train my dog with other off-lead dogs within 10 yards of him (unless its class where all the dogs are obedient). I don't expect my dog to heel perfectly off lead with me while another dog is sniffing his butt! The biggest thing I'm noticing is that your expectations are extremely high for a dog this age. I don't know if its the trainer that promised you this or what, but at my club we don't even start full obedience training with dogs until they're 6 months old, and recalls are trained on leash from 6 feet away with the dog sitting and starring right at you. Don't allow your dog to fail is the key. Each time they blow you off they learn there are no consequences to it.

Your dog is not dominant...he's fearful. Barking is to make them sound bigger and badder than they truly are. My dog doesn't bark at all at other dogs and he's extremely dominant when he's in a pack.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Time to find a new trainer. Like...yesterday.
> Anyone who calls themselves a trainer and chokes a puppy with a choke chain has no freaking clue what they are doing, IMO.
> OH, and "dominance" is the "go to diagnosis" and means "I have no clue what's going on with this puppy but if I choke it and toss it around and pin it down, it ought to shape up"


I had misgivings about the trainer from the first class, when she said that a choke chain was the only option for my puppy because he is a GSD (all of the other dogs in the class are small breeds) and there was no way that he would be able to do heel work without a choke chain. The training school has a strict no refund policy and the course was expensive, so I decided to stick with it, much to my regret, as I feel that the trainer has made my puppy even more distrustful or fearful of strangers. 



msvette2u said:


> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong Start implementing some of these techniques today and ditch the trainer.


Thank you for the link. I've unknowingly implemented some of the mind games already (e.g. 'no more kibble from heaven', 'learning his place', 'take control of your dog's body', 'daily chores', etc.), but I will start hand feeding him his meals, tethering him to me, etc. 



martemchik said:


> Yeah...your trainer should've told you not to leave him off lead for recalls.


She has all of the dogs off-leash for recall exercises. As soon as the leashes are off, so are half of the dogs (most of them are around the same age as mine). 




martemchik said:


> The biggest thing I'm noticing is that your expectations are extremely high for a dog this age. I don't know if its the trainer that promised you this or what, but at my club we don't even start full obedience training with dogs until they're 6 months old, and recalls are trained on leash from 6 feet away with the dog sitting and starring right at you. Don't allow your dog to fail is the key. Each time they blow you off they learn there are no consequences to it.
> 
> Your dog is not dominant...he's fearful. Barking is to make them sound bigger and badder than they truly are. My dog doesn't bark at all at other dogs and he's extremely dominant when he's in a pack.


My dog doesn’t bark at other dogs; he doesn’t even play bark (or play growl). His issue is solely with people/strangers, unfortunately. 

It’s never occurred to me that my expectations are too high, even for a 5-month-old. He’s very intelligent (as most GSDs are) and obedient at home. E.g. I can put him in a drop-stay, place a chicken neck (his favourite food) right in front of him, tell him to “leave it”, leave him unattended outside for 6 minutes, return – and everything is as it was. So I like to challenge him, prevent area association, work on proofing, etc. 

But you’ve subtly alluded to something else: I move too quickly. 

This fear aggression blew up exactly 6 days ago, after I brought him along to meet a friend at a café. I thought that he was ready for the socialisation experience, but I was dead wrong. 

My friend and I were sitting outside; it was a warm day (where I live, we've just come out of winter) and the weekend, so there were a lot of people out and about. My dog was lying down on the sidewalk side, not the road side, so he was exposed to all of the passersby. (I hate myself for not making him lie down on the road side, where he would’ve been blocked/shielded by me from the passersby.) For the first 40 minutes, he didn’t bark or lunge at anyone, including the (rude, in my opinion) people who walked past and petted him without asking. Then a man crouched right next to him, petted his face for a few minutes (I also hate myself for not telling this man to not pet my dog before he even laid his hand on him) and my dog lost it – he began barking and lunging at EVERYONE. I had to leave the café because he was so distressed. 

I keep making mistakes with my dog and, yes, I’m unintentionally setting him up to fail, either by expecting too much of him or moving too quickly. I wish that I could rewind time and go back to the beginning.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A six minute out of sight stay at 5 months old?!?!? Either he really loves that chicken neck or he loves to lay in one spot. I can barely do a 5 minute out of sight stay without any treats in front of my dog. It's really interesting how your trainer teaches recalls...I wouldn't expect a 5 month old to be able to stay in one place while its owner is walking away in order to do a stay...but I guess she uses some magical techniques since your dog does what he does.

The cafe story...not really your fault, but you have to expect that people will pet a dog that is out in a public place like that. You're not at a place where you generally see a lot of dogs, and the expectation is a dog that is lying at a cafe is a friendly one. Should people ask? Absolutely, but most people don't know dog etiquette and you can't really blame them for it. You should be bringing him around places like that to get him used to people, in fact I'm really surprised he's that bad around people at 5 months old.

How else do you train him? What are your trainer's methods? To me it sounds like there is a lot of correcting going on...did your trainer correct your dog often? How early did you start there? This might be genetic but there might also be some trauma involved too...why did you only get this dog at 11 weeks old? Do you know what kind of socialization he received in those 3 weeks?


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

martemchik said:


> A six minute out of sight stay at 5 months old?!?!? Either he really loves that chicken neck or he loves to lay in one spot. I can barely do a 5 minute out of sight stay without any treats in front of my dog.


We’ve been working on this since I first got him. Initially, when he was 11-weeks-old, there was no treat in front of him – he just had to drop-stay for 5 seconds. Then, I gradually increased the time (10 seconds, 30 seconds, 1 minute, etc.), moved further and further away from him until I was out of sight, and introduced food. We practise this exercise every day. 



martemchik said:


> It's really interesting how your trainer teaches recalls...I wouldn't expect a 5 month old to be able to stay in one place while its owner is walking away in order to do a stay...but I guess she uses some magical techniques since your dog does what he does.


At obedience school, he can’t consistently sit-stay and drop-stay for the required time, which is 30 seconds (26 or 27 seconds appears to be his limit in most classes). Granted, it’s a high distraction environment (there are 7 other dogs in the class and it takes place at a very popular offleash park with an outdoor market), but I’ve always been under the impression that we’re not doing well. I often leave obedience school frustrated and disappointed in my skills as a handler. 



martemchik said:


> How else do you train him? What are your trainer's methods? To me it sounds like there is a lot of correcting going on...did your trainer correct your dog often? How early did you start there? This might be genetic but there might also be some trauma involved too...why did you only get this dog at 11 weeks old? Do you know what kind of socialization he received in those 3 weeks?


I do frequent 5-10 minute training sessions with him throughout the day (at home, in the backyard, in the front yard, at a small park at the end of our street [only at times when no one is there; he always remains on leash, because it's not offleash], etc.), which I follow with play sessions. He’s not very food motivated, but he’s very play motivated, so I’ve had to be a little creative with training. 

The trainer’s methods are “balanced” (direct quote from the obedience school’s website). She does indeed employ many verbal and physical corrections, which I don’t think suit my dog’s temperament. She also only uses treats for the drop (lie down) exercise, which are then quickly phased out. I’m not an expert on dog training, but my dog seems to respond better to positive reinforcement. She has physically corrected him three times (with the choke chain), but I can't recall her ever verbally correcting him (other dogs, yes, but not him). 

I started training him from the day that I got him, but it has become more formalised/routine in recent months. 

I don’t know much about his background, because he was a surprise birthday present from my parents, who bought him on a whim. I never met the breeder or his parents, I never saw the environment that he was in, etc. My parents chose him because he was the calmest of the litter, but I think that they mistook calm for timid.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That is not a trainer who has caught up with the more positive techniques. Check out Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources and go to trainer search.
With my pup I am taking it slow and interweave deference throughout the day along with basic obedience training and play. It is better to succeed in a 2 second sit than fail at a 20 sec. one.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Do not allow any trainer to handle your dog. She did her 'training', took the money, and you are left with a task of undoing her 'training'. I actually do not have a problem with correction based training, but corrections have to be fair , correspond to the behavior that needs to be corrected, and certainly not chocking a 5 mnth old pup.

Don't get too focused on formal excercises, it shouldn't be your main concern right now. Work on understandign your dog, the triggers, his body language. Work on building trust and mutual respect. 

+++- He barked for 5 minutes when a delivery man rang the doorbell this morning. And, for the first time, he barked aggressively at me after I signed for the package and shut the front door. 
+++

It's unacceptable that your dog redirects his aggression at you, but it was partly your fault. Why the dog was allowed to bark for 5 min? You should've removed the dog from the situation after a couple of allert barks, and then sign for the package. After that start training sendign the dog to his mat/crate when a door bell rings. You need to learn how to manage your dog, not how to do perfect pretty sitz.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

piquant said:


> The trainer’s methods are “balanced” (direct quote from the obedience school’s website). She does indeed employ many verbal and physical corrections, which I don’t think suit my dog’s temperament. She also only uses treats for the drop (lie down) exercise, which are then quickly phased out. I’m not an expert on dog training, but my dog seems to respond better to positive reinforcement. She has physically corrected him three times (with the choke chain), but I can't recall her ever verbally correcting him (other dogs, yes, but not him).


She can call herself anything she wants to, but that doesn't sound very balanced to me.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

It sounds like you've put a lot of time into training with this dog. Enough, even, to know which training methods work best for your pup. I'm wondering, though, how much socialization you've done in the time you've had the pup. Not with other dogs, but with new people, new places, etc. Reason I'm wondering is that if you've not done a lot of it... if you start doing that now (using methods to keep the pup's attention on you during this exposure) you may see a difference after awhile. You may partly be looking at a genetics issue, but if the pup wasn't socialized well you could still see improvement. I have to say...for a pup that age to be doing some of the things he does I wouldn't be upset as a handler. Sure, you've made some mistakes...but I've made some BIG ones along the way. GSD's just aren't like every other dog out there. More care needs to be taken not only with respect to picking a pup, but with how you raise them, what you expose them to, and socializing the heck out of them for a long period of time. Add in a bad trainer, and you can have a total mess before you're even to the six month mark! It's better to lose your money than have further damage done to your dog by a trainer that doesn't know what they're doing. 

Don't beat yourself up too much. You didn't pick the pup, and it sounds like the deck may have been stacked against you from the beginning. Now you've got to work with what you've got. Having excellent obedience will help you both. Check out Anthony's posts. The control he has over his female is not only amazing, but very helpful in having a fearful dog. However, IMO, you need to start working to find your dog's threshold and doing more socialization. He's young. There's still things you can do to help him feel more secure and hopefully come out the other side at a better place.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> It's unacceptable that your dog redirects his aggression at you, but it was partly your fault. Why the dog was allowed to bark for 5 min? You should've removed the dog from the situation after a couple of allert barks, and then sign for the package. After that start training sendign the dog to his mat/crate when a door bell rings. You need to learn how to manage your dog, not how to do perfect pretty sitz.


Up until recently, I was (even more) ignorant about his behaviour. I thought that he was trying to protect and alert/warn me by barking at the doorbell, so I would just ignore his barking and wait for him to calm down by himself. 



Jag said:


> I'm wondering, though, how much socialization you've done in the time you've had the pup. Not with other dogs, but with new people, new places, etc.


Not much, apart from a daily walk in a busy, high stimulus area (I live close to a popular retail and hospitality strip) where he’s exposed to many different strangers (but no direct contact)/sounds (e.g. trams)/smells/etc., a weekly visit to the vet for a weigh-in and the occasional trip to a pet store. In hindsight, I focused too much on socialising him with other dogs because, when I first got him, he exhibited some timidity towards them (he is now extremely confident around all dogs). I also haven’t taken him to many new places because he gets car sick, but it’s no excuse for my negligence. 



Jag said:


> Reason I'm wondering is that if you've not done a lot of it... if you start doing that now (using methods to keep the pup's attention on you during this exposure) you may see a difference after awhile. You may partly be looking at a genetics issue, but if the pup wasn't socialized well you could still see improvement.


Today, I sat outside the nearby shopping mall with him to accustom him to seeing strangers approaching from a distance. He didn’t eyeball, bark or lunge at anyone, including a person in a wheelchair who got very close to him. However, he kept sitting up when I asked him to drop, which indicates to me that he couldn’t relax. 

I’m not sure if it was an effective exercise, as he has never barked or lunged at anyone in a populous, high stimulus area. *Touch wood* For now, he only barks and lunges at people in open and quiet areas. However, I don’t want to move too quickly and traumatise him, particularly without consulting the behaviourist. 



Jag said:


> Don't beat yourself up too much. You didn't pick the pup, and it sounds like the deck may have been stacked against you from the beginning. Now you've got to work with what you've got. Having excellent obedience will help you both. Check out Anthony's posts. The control he has over his female is not only amazing, but very helpful in having a fearful dog. However, IMO, you need to start working to find your dog's threshold and doing more socialization. He's young. There's still things you can do to help him feel more secure and hopefully come out the other side at a better place.


Thanks for your kind words and encouragement.  I've been down lately, so I really appreciate it. 

The difficult part is finding my dog’s threshold. Hopefully, the behaviourist will help me with this. 

I’ve probably made him out to be an awful dog, but he’s not. I don’t regret getting him at all. I couldn’t ask for a more intelligent, loyal, affectionate (towards people that he knows), gentle (towards people that he knows) and obedient puppy. It just saddens me that he doesn’t have confidence in himself and in me to protect him. My aim isn’t to ‘cure’ him of his fear aggression towards humans (don't get me wrong - it would be great if I could). I want to be able to manage it, which is a huge challenge in and of itself. I want him to be able look to me to be told how to behave/what to do in stressful or threatening situations.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Of course he's not an awful dog! It's also clear that you love this guy. I think that you're a pretty dedicated owner who is willing to get the right info. and learn from your mistakes. Don't be too hard on yourself. Seriously. You've got a lot of work to do, but it sounds like you're willing to do it. Once you get him evaluated and get some one to one training on how to deal with the behaviors, I'm sure you'll see some difference. My female was totally bat **** crazy.. aggressive randomly..attacking people without warning...but in the house with the family she was a terrific dog that we all loved to death. Unfortunately, nothing we did for all the years of her life ever made a difference. All we could do was keep her away from people the best we could. Made for a stressful life, but like you, we loved her anyway. I'd rather have had a FA dog... I think we'd have at least had some improvement.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Jag said:


> My female was totally bat **** crazy.. aggressive randomly..attacking people without warning...but in the house with the family she was a terrific dog that we all loved to death. Unfortunately, nothing we did for all the years of her life ever made a difference. All we could do was keep her away from people the best we could. Made for a stressful life, but like you, we loved her anyway.


I'm sorry to hear this. She's lucky that she had you for an owner. I've been reading some threads created by members with fear aggressive GSDs; the love and commitment/dedication shown by some owners is very inspiring.

----

A final update: I spoke to the behaviourist today to organise a consultation. Unfortunately, I won't be able to see her until mid next week, as she's in extremely high demand. In the meantime, she has advised me to avoid anything that could stress my dog (i.e. strangers), so I'll be walking him during odd hours, when there's less of a chance that we'll run into any people, and avoiding any popular areas. He won't be able to play with any puppies/dogs at the park, but I'm hoping that it won't adversely affect him (in terms of his sociability towards other dogs). 

For those that are curious, I've attached a recent picture of him. He's a sable and weighs 21.2kg.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You are moving too fast in terms of training expectations....he is just a puppy. The more I hear the more I don't think he is fear aggressive at all....I do think that he has had a lack of socialization, and that many of the things you do are unintentionally contributing to his behavior in public.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

piquant said:


> - He barked aggressively at two people (both women) for no reason today at the off-leash park. They were just standing by themselves, minding their own attention. Fortunately, I quickly redirected his attention to a squeaky ball.


Maybe you answered this already, but were the women looking at him? I have a dog who doesn't like dogs looking at him. I'll bet the man and his son were staring. That's is likely to set off a fear aggressive dog. 

You should make sure people don't stare, you can ask them politely not to. Or you can position your dog so he can't see them. Also, increase distance from the "threat" until your dog feels comfortable. In the same way you use the squeeky toy, I use the clicker. It's funny, he doesn't see the clicker as a reinforcer, like it's usual use. He sees it as a call for food. LOL! My dog has improved tremendously as he ages. So, I wouldn't give up on yours. 

Definitely get a professional, even if you can only afford an initial assessment. I paid $175 for 2 hours for a professional and it was well spent.

PS..The martingale is a good idea. That's all I use on my dog.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

Hi all. I'm here with another update. 

Today, I had a 2.5 hour consultation (it was supposed to last up to 2 hours, but went overtime) with the behaviourist. My dog was _extremely_ aggressive towards her and even bit her on the leg (fortunately, she was wearing thick pants; no skin was broken). When I put him in his crate, he was like a wild animal. I've never seen such an intense display of aggression from him (the behaviourist said that this was "very serious"), so it was both shocking and upsetting. On a brighter note, the behaviourist has given me _a lot_ of useful advice and has taught me some exercises to work on with my dog. 

She said that his aggression is rooted in fear, most likely as a result of genetics, early imprinting, my lack of leadership (not strong enough) and poor socialisation (e.g. me not removing him when he felt uncomfortable with being petted by a stranger). The aggression has developed because he has learnt that if he lunges, charges, barks, growls, eyeballs, etc., the target (the stranger) will back away. However, she seemed to suggest that he has more aggression than fear, and said that if I were to rehome him, he could do protection work, as an experienced trainer would be able to increase his confidence and take advantage of, so to speak, his aggression.

The behaviourist emphasised that I must be a firm, assertive, clear and consistent leader by adopting a 'nothing in life is free' approach to _everything_, including physical contact (e.g. pets), as I have a strong, working line dog who needs a job and is entering adolescence (he'll be 6-months-old soon), so hormones are in play and he'll be testing the boundaries of leadership. 

One exercise that we worked on involved loose-leash walking. It's slightly difficult to explain, but she played the part of the unassuming stranger walking in the street. As soon the leash tightened and/or my dog was about to fixate on her as we were walking, I would turn into him (i.e. left), walk in that direction and encourage him to follow me by patting my thigh. I would quickly glance back to see what he was doing as I headed in the opposite direction. If he fixated on the behaviourist and/or didn't follow me, I would correct him with a quick pop of the choke/check chain. After some repetitions, he would glance at the behaviourist, and then look at and follow me, which I rewarded with praise and a high value treat. Gradually, the behaviourist decreased her distance away from us. Initially, she was on the opposite side of the street; then she was on the same side of the street, but several metres away; then she was only a few metres away. 

It was 2.5 hours of information overload (I have so much to thinking about and act on), but after seeing the behaviourist, I feel that a huge weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Although I'm in for a long and challenging time with my dog (the behaviourist said that this is just the beginning), it's such a relief to have professional support and guidance from someone who not only actually knows what they're doing, but also genuinely cares about my dog.


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## piquant (Sep 4, 2012)

FlyAway said:


> Maybe you answered this already, but were the women looking at him? I have a dog who doesn't like dogs looking at him. I'll bet the man and his son were staring. That's is likely to set off a fear aggressive dog.


Initially, he would only react to people that were staring at him and otherwise paying him attention, such as the man and his young son.

However, he is now at the stage where he intensely stares at (the behaviourist said that he has a very intense and serious stare for a puppy), lunges, barks and tries to attack people that aren't even paying attention to him. 



FlyAway said:


> Definitely get a professional, even if you can only afford an initial assessment. I paid $175 for 2 hours for a professional and it was well spent.


The consultation was definitely worth it ($250 for 2.5 hours). The behaviourist said that she would also like to see us for a few short private lessons at her training facility.


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