# Is this the norm?



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I apologize if I'm asking dumb questions but I suppose a really dumb question is one you don't ask.

I will be looking to purchase a Belgian Malinois puppy next year, either in spring or in summer, depending on what litters are coming up that I will be interested in.

In my search for the right breeder and the right dog, some of my law enforcement friends have recommended breeders that they have gotten dogs from and have been very happy with. I have met some of those dogs and like some of them very much, but in talking to the breeders, I am wondering whether I am expecting too much of a working breeder (as in, for law enforcement, rather than sport)?

I have noticed that most of the breeders I've talked to whose aim are primarily law enforcement agencies don't offer much in terms of warranties against genetic defects, hips/elbows, etc. Whereas many of the sport breeders offer hips/elbows until 24 or 30 months, most of the working breeder seem to offer until 1 year (get preliminary x-rays done and if the hips/elbows are bad, they will replace the puppy).

I've also noticed that a lot of them don't have registration papers on their dogs, which would obviously not be an issue for a police dog but would be an issue if I ever wanted to compete in, say, rally or obedience.

Just curious whether it's the norm for working breeders not to offer much in terms of a warranty and what everyone thought of that? We talk so much on this board about what to look for in a breeder and a lot of these working breeders would raise a major flag based on those criteria. So, just curious about opinions?

I can link some of the breeders I've been talking to, if that would help, maybe someone knows of them and their dogs beyond the people I know who have dogs from them?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

There is a breeder here that does just that, he imports alot of mals, breeds them as well, but none are registered here, they go to law enforcement and he does sell to the public sparingly..

He doesn't like "females" except for breeding purposes..gave a friend of mine two females that were around 6 months , nice dogs I was rather surprised since they had been kenneled those 6 months, and he did "NOTHING" with them...This guy doesn't offer warranties either..

Would I get one from him? not sure, liked the two I met, but that was only two..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

yes, it does seem normal. Pedigrees and Confirmation doesn't matter.

Also, no warranty is more like the German/European style. However, that doesn't mean that these breeders won't grant you a replace or money back if the dog ends up with HD or ED.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

If you wanted to do rally or obedience, you could always go the PAL/ILP route...


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes but then the dog would have to be altered in order to get an IPL from AKC. Some people don't alter at all, and others like myself alter under most circumstances, but it's delayed until 18 mo - 2 yrs of age give or take.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

First off, most law enforcement don't buy puppies. The majority of law enforcement trainers, buying for an LE department buy dogs that are old enough to test for the correct behaviors and do physicals. Pedigrees and ancestry begin to mean less than the observable potential of a dog during the tests. Secondly, I would never buy a dog that did not come warranted for both health and trainability. In fact, I've heard of very few vendors that deal with police departments that don't offer a warranty. It's just not the normal way business is done.

DFrost


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

AbbyK9 said:


> I've also noticed that a lot of them don't have registration papers on their dogs, which would obviously not be an issue for a police dog but would be an issue if I ever wanted to compete in, say, rally or obedience.


Actually, this is not a problem in any registry. All you need to do is send in photos and fill out an application. It is only an issue for conformation.

The AKC even thought Doerak was close enough in appearances to pass for a GSD. I had nothing in terms of paper for him.

Sorry, I didn't read ahead. I have the problem with Boaz being intact. He can't compete in any AKC events until he is neutered. Which is never! So, we do UKC.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, I really don't like altering my dogs unless it's absolutely necessary.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DFrost said:


> First off, most law enforcement don't buy puppies. The majority of law enforcement trainers, buying for an LE department buy dogs that are old enough to test for the correct behaviors and do physicals. Pedigrees and ancestry begin to mean less than the observable potential of a dog during the tests. Secondly, I would never buy a dog that did not come warranted for both health and trainability. In fact, I've heard of very few vendors that deal with police departments that don't offer a warranty. It's just not the normal way business is done.
> 
> DFrost


Isn't that why dogs are tested through and through before they are bought? What else could there be warranted in trainability if they passed the those tests in the first place?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> First off, most law enforcement don't buy puppies.


I am aware of this. 

These breeders are holding back pups to develop for their "green dog" program and also do sell pups to those agencies that want them. My one friend in VT and several of the other LEOs he works with started with puppies from the particular breeder / importer / broker that he suggested for me.



> In fact, I've heard of very few vendors that deal with police departments that don't offer a warranty.


It's not that there isn't a warranty at all - but that the warranty seems to seriously differ from those a lot of the "sport" breeders offer. Like I mentioned, some only warranty hips/elbows, nothing else. Some don't warranty hips/elbows to 24 or 30 months of age, either.



> If you wanted to do rally or obedience, you could always go the PAL/ILP route...


Yes, I am also aware of this. My current dog is PAL/ILP registered. However, I plan to start with a (male) puppy and I do not believe in altering unless it is medically necessary. I did not have a choice with my current or previous dog as they were both rescues.

Even if I were going to alter, it would not be until the dog is two years old, which means we would not be able to compete until that time. 

However, I have to admit that while training is important to me, I don't really care a lot about competition, though I've had great fun doing "fun matches" with the various local clubs and other events.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

BlackPuppy said:


> Actually, this is not a problem in any registry. All you need to do is send in photos and fill out an application. It is only an issue for conformation.
> 
> The AKC even thought Doerak was close enough in appearances to pass for a GSD. I had nothing in terms of paper for him.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't read ahead. I have the problem with Boaz being intact. He can't compete in any AKC events until he is neutered. Which is never! So, we do UKC.


I find this rather confusing. My understanding of all reputable long standing registration agencies is that the dog has to have papered parents. the only registry I'm familiar with that allows photos and an application to determine if they look "pure" enough is CKC (continental, not canadian). 

Are you saying you sent in photos and an application to AKC and obtained actual AKC registration, not PAL?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Isn't that why dogs are tested through and through before they are bought? What else could there be warranted in trainability if they passed the those tests in the first place?


Even though the dog passes the behavior tests, there is no way to tell how the dog will hold up under the pressure of training, until you train. sometimes dogs don't make it. Most police vendors will replace the dog if that happens. 

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

AbbyK9 says: "It's not that there isn't a warranty at all - but that the warranty seems to seriously differ from those a lot of the "sport" breeders offer. Like I mentioned, some only warranty hips/elbows, nothing else. Some don't warranty hips/elbows to 24 or 30 months of age, either."

I don't know, I don't deal with "sport" warranties. I buy from vendors that are used to dealing with police and pretty much know what we are looking for.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> I don't know, I don't deal with "sport" warranties. I buy from vendors that are used to dealing with police and pretty much know what we are looking for.


Okay ... this isn't really helping a whole lot. Can you post an example of a warranty that you get from the vendors you buy from?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DFrost said:


> AbbyK9 says: "It's not that there isn't a warranty at all - but that the warranty seems to seriously differ from those a lot of the "sport" breeders offer. Like I mentioned, some only warranty hips/elbows, nothing else. Some don't warranty hips/elbows to 24 or 30 months of age, either."
> 
> I don't know, I don't deal with "sport" warranties. I buy from vendors that are used to dealing with police and pretty much know what we are looking for.


Can you recommend any of them?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Can you recommend any of them?


Being a state employee, I'm not permitted. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I know several reputable vendors. What exactly are you looking for?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

@DFrost - Apologies if this sounds rude, but if you can't / won't give any actual help or input, why did you even respond? I am baffled by this. You tell me you expect certain warranties but won't provide any information as to what you would expect from your vendors. Certainly doesn't help me in finding one ....

@Renee - Thank you for offering some real help! 

I recently found out that my Malinois girl will be 10 years old at the end of December, so my search for my next dog has been moved to next year vs. another two or three years down a road. I am looking to purchase a male Malinois puppy and plan for the dog to primarily be a companion. 

I will be training either in Ringsport or SAR with the puppy, depending on what he is more suited for. Beyond that, I'll be doing a little of everything, as I've done with all my past dogs ... some obedience, some rally, some agility, some therapy work, hiking, snowshoeing, etc. I also plan to take the dog reenacting, so I'll be focusing some of the training on that.

I am looking for a dog that has good temperament and solid nerve, which is why I've been looking more toward law enforcement vendors rather than sport breeders. I am not liking what a lot of the sport breeders produce in Malinois. I want a dog that is level-headed, social, but has enough drive to work.

My friends in Vermont are buying a lot of their dogs through TriState, which is both an importer as well as a breeder. They have a puppy program up there, both for Malinois and Shepherds, for their police. And everyone with dogs from TriState said they've never steered them wrong but they don't offer much of a warranty on their dogs. Nor will the litter they're planning to breed this December have papers.

Others that were recommended to me are Mohawk's Malinois, Lionheart Canine, and Triple E Kennels. All of them have a fair number of dogs that went to law enforcement but most don't offer the kinds of warranties that sport breeders offer.

Are you familiar with any of them, by chance? Or can you recommend someone that would have what I'm looking for?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

"Abby K9 asked: Just curious whether it's the norm for working breeders not to offer much in terms of a warranty and what everyone thought of that? We talk so much on this board about what to look for in a breeder and a lot of these working breeders would raise a major flag based on those criteria. So, just curious about opinions?"

I actually gave you my opinion of that exact question. You also received information from another source about vendors. I didn't ignore the question about specific vendors, which would have been rude, rather I gave the answer as to why I'm unable to provide that information. You're welcome.

DFrost


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Also, no warranty is more like the German/European style. However, that doesn't mean that these breeders won't grant you a replace or money back if the dog ends up with HD or ED.


 You know, you hear the exact chet from breeders here in the states. Some always say that if you buy from europe, you won't get a warranty or a replacement pup so you are screwed if you buy from them. Good ol sales pitch.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> You know, you hear the exact chet from breeders here in the states. Some always say that if you buy from europe, you won't get a warranty or a replacement pup so you are screwed if you buy from them. Good ol sales pitch.


It's a handshake/honor thing. Indra and Judge have a general contract. If Indra has HD/ED I have no guarantee but it was a handshake thing. He guaranteed me via a handshake that I'd get replacement and I know I can trust him. 

My parents did the same thing. It was never in a contract but if a dog had HD, the buyer always got a replacement. It's just what a reputable breeder does. You may not have it in the contract but a reputable breeder will offer it anyways.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Why should the breeder give you a warranty? Can you give a warranty that your home environment is going to be perfect for that puppy and you will raise and train him to 100% of his genetic potential?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> It's a handshake/honor thing. Indra and Judge have a general contract. If Indra has HD/ED I have no guarantee but it was a handshake thing. He guaranteed me via a handshake that I'd get replacement and I know I can trust him.
> 
> My parents did the same thing. It was never in a contract but if a dog had HD, the buyer always got a replacement. It's just what a reputable breeder does. You may not have it in the contract but a reputable breeder will offer it anyways.


For my next dog-I don't know how much I care about a contract-becuase if the dog had HD I don't really want a replacement-only can do so many dogs-and $ back doesn't seem all that important


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Why should the breeder give you a warranty?


*Because that is what a reputable breeder does - they stand behind the dogs they produce.* And that means they have a contract that states exactly what they do if the dog they've produced is not sound from a health and temperament point of view.

If you're not familiar with warranties, this one is a good example - (German Shepherd Puppy Health Warranty, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

isn't Mrs K getting a mal puppy and you girls are friends right? Why not get one from her source?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Quite a few of the K9s in various departments in my area are GSD/Mal crosses. They were all bought from some place up northeast as trained dogs. I'm guessing these folks are buying totally based on workability, and from what I hear the price on the mix pups is usually under $1000. Dogs are hip/elbow xrayed prior to placement with police, so I'm guessing the parents are probably xrayed at least, but have no idea. A few of the departments around here tried Mals but found them to be just a bit much and ended up getting rid of them (sent them back from what we were told). We've had a few of the crosses come out here to do some continuing training and they are nice dogs, but at the risk of getting flamed, I will say they are some butt ugly dogs LOL. The one police officer who had one of our dogs prior to his new GSD/Mal mix said it's a good thing he's a good working dog cuz he sure is hard to look at LOL. 
In our experience(when we used to be under contract with the police depts) in helping these departments find new dogs, many of the facilities that sell trained dogs get their pups from breeders who produce dogs specifically for this purpose. Most were not registered (obviously not the crosses) and there was no pedigree or guarantee as to genetic or health issues. So I'm guessing wherever they got the dogs from as pups didn't have to provide this info either. 
Annette


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Annette,

my dad always says: the working capabilities makes them beautiful. 

He said the same thing about Indra when my mom said that she's not pretty. It's true, she's not the prettiest dog but she can work and that is what makes her beautiful. Nobody cares what a dog looks like if they can work and I rather have a butt ugly dog that can work than the most beautiful dog in the world that you can't do anything with because there is nothing there to work with except to look at him for how beautiful the dog is.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> isn't Mrs K getting a mal puppy and you girls are friends right? Why not get one from her source?


All the pups are placed in sport or working homes. 

It was an unregistered litter, there is no warrantie at all. Pups were only 200 Euros. The brother to the little guy I have was available until shortly but was placed too. 

Mine is definitely a mean little SOB Stinker. He's going to be fun and I'm looking forward to get him next month (January). 

I take the risk without the warrantie because you can't ask for much when you get a pup out of a phenomenal (yet unregistered ) litter for only 200 euros.

I teamed up with a girl from another SAR Team. She's getting a Mal too. I sent everything I had of my Mal puppy to Bill Dotson and somebody in Ring Sport I know because I wanted their opinion on him. Both of them said that he looks like a very very good deal and is definitely a steal. So I bought him.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I've bought quite a number (more than 20) over the past couple of years. None of them were registered. Most police departments don't buy puppies. Those with an in-house canine training section don't buy trained dogs. While I won't say looks are not a consideration at all, I will say, looks are not a deal breaker. I fully test all dogs myself, then send them to my own vet for physical and xrays. I think a lot of vendors just pass around the same set of xrays.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Registration and Papers are only important in the breeding/sport/show world business. 

Honestly, with the way things go I can see why people would start mixing Mals and GSD's and sell them to LE for lower prices. 

If LE has to finance itself by collecting donations not every department can afford to pump out that kind of serious money.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Mrs. K, trust me I totally get that. You would just have to meet this one police officer that had this dog. He looks like one of those guys you'd see in a fundraising calendar. Very polished, in great shape and also a very SWEET guy. The dog he had prior to this mix had actually been my husband's dog, long story how we ended up selling him(still kicking ourselves) but that dog was very impressive looking and was to us, and him, a beautiful dark sable dog (not by conformation people's standards I'm sure). So when he ended up with Arnold (the new dog) he just had to get used to the different look. The dog is awesome though, a great boy and a great working dog.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I've yet to meet the police canine handler that felt his second dog measures up to his first. There is just something special about your "first dog". 

DFrost


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

DFrost said:


> I've yet to meet the police canine handler that felt his second dog measures up to his first. There is just something special about your "first dog".
> 
> DFrost


It's not only with police K9 Handlers. 

The first dog you picked yourself, raised and trained yourself is the special one and will always be that special dog.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Isn't Mrs K getting a mal puppy and you girls are friends right? Why not get one from her source?


Because they're all taken. 



> In our experience(when we used to be under contract with the police depts) in helping these departments find new dogs, many of the facilities that sell trained dogs get their pups from breeders who produce dogs specifically for this purpose. Most were not registered (obviously not the crosses) and there was no pedigree or guarantee as to genetic or health issues. So I'm guessing wherever they got the dogs from as pups didn't have to provide this info either.


Interesting. So it's not that uncommon.

For what it's worth, the breeders / vendors I've been talking to do have more or less complete pedigrees on most of their dogs, even if they do not have papers for them. So that gives me something to look at and learn more about their dogs and why they're choosing them. One of the breeders does offer a warranty on all their dogs, even though they don't have papers. 

Another only offers a partial warranty, so to speak ... basically if you do preliminary x-rays before the dog is a year old, and their hips / elbows rate less than "good", they will replace/refund. They do have hips/elbows on both parents.



> We've had a few of the crosses come out here to do some continuing training and they are nice dogs, but at the risk of getting flamed, I will say they are some butt ugly dogs LOL.


We have a Mal/GSD mix on base and he's actually not too bad on the eyes. He's mostly Shepherd looking, though.


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