# Breeder contract (limited registration)



## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

Hello, is it common for a breeder to offer almost no guarantees with "pet quality" pups? I'm talking about stuff like teeth, ears not standing, and some other various things. Is it common for breeders to not guarantee temperament? I find some of this alarming, but it could very well be common.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

As far as I know things that are guaranteed are general health, hips/elbows, and temperament since that's how they are choosing the breeding you will get from. If you are alarmed, ask the questions or find another breeder. You want to make sure you are happy with who you are going with. There is nothing wrong, also, to ask for things to be added into the contract. Yes this is a life you are going to raise and add to your family, but until that pup gets there and even after, this is an investment and still, in parts, business. 

Not GSD, but my current breeder for my Boerboel goes into way more detail than I have seen otherwise.. I mean she goes into the percentages of what she encourages to feed in the contract (protein, calcium, fat, etc.).. by temperament, it's not anything that is specific in what I asked for, but more along the lines of "if the temperament isn't what we had discussed, I will replace your pup with another pup from a future litter." I appreciate that.. 

I have never bought a GSD from a reliable breeder, I just happened to luck out with a guy that didn't know the line that he was producing and it was a good one. So I am not sure if it differs with breed, but I wouldn't think so if it's just for general health and temperament.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Unless you are planning to show your pup (that's where some of those other guarantees may come into play with a greeder guarantee), usually a guarantee covers genetic issues, HD in GSDs normally.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Breeders who guarantee temperament??? Really? How on earth does that work? So many factors influence temperament, including how the the pup is raised and experiences. How on earth can a breeder guarantee that?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

It is next to impossible to really "guarantee" anything. In contracts that do offer them, they are typically conditional based on the neuter of the affected animal and replacement or full/partial refund of purchase price. But I don't find it alarming for a breeder to offer nothing at all. When you buy a dog, its just the risk that you take.

As far as full/limited registration, I think its entirely acceptable (and I would wish to be more common) for breeders to only sell with limited registration, with the release of full registration once official health testing has been done and IPO1 or equivalent working title is achieved.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Think we sign more or a 'warranty' rather than a 'guarantee'  And not sure temperament is in that mix. If you have ANY bad feelings about what a breeder is saying or in their paperwork, just ask. And if still not liking what they say, then go somewhere else.

Best site I know that has the information you are asking about is on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> Breeders who guarantee temperament??? Really? How on earth does that work? So many factors influence temperament, including how the the pup is raised and experiences. How on earth can a breeder guarantee that?





MaggieRoseLee said:


> Think we sign more or a 'warranty' rather than a 'guarantee'  And not sure temperament is in that mix.


I guess the way I look at it is similar to what I went through... and maybe warranty is a way better term to use.. lol.

I had purchased the pick pup, I wanted a particular temperament and I guess I include drive in temperament too, as I intended to do SAR with her. When I got her she was a ball of nerves and very fearful of new situations with no drive, really, was told she was not this way when she was sent to me. I did everything "right" and after evaluations from trainers familiar with the breed it was suggested to return. Per my contract, I could return and get a replacement pup if the puppy wasn't as I had asked for. The siblings weren't this way, and neither were the parents, so this had to have just been a random occurrence. Because of my contract protecting what I had discussed with the breeder, I was able to return her and wait for another puppy from another litter based solely on her temperament leaning toward dominant and fear aggression than a sound stable dog. It happens, and I do not blame the breeder at all, but it should be something in the contract about that.. especially if you are getting the pup for a purpose. If I ask for a low drive more submissive temperament, and i get a high drive dominant one, I should be entitled to return the pup if that is my desire.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Maybe I am confusing the word temperament with something else.. do you get what I am trying to say?


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## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Breeders who guarantee temperament??? Really? How on earth does that work? So many factors influence temperament, including how the the pup is raised and experiences. How on earth can a breeder guarantee that?


I have seen a few breeders who guarantee the temperament of their pups. I am talking about WL pups, I assume they mean the drive and what not. I have also seen breeders guarantee ears, teeth, testicles, and so on. That is why I found it alarming that this breeder (a reputable one) doesn't guarantee any of that stuff.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sunny23 said:


> I have seen a few breeders who guarantee the temperament of their pups. I am talking about WL pups, I assume they mean the drive and what not. I have also seen breeders guarantee ears, teeth, testicles, and so on. *That is why I found it alarming that this breeder (a reputable one) doesn't guarantee any of that stuff.*


WE need to do our homework 

And if we choose to buy a puppy from a breeder (thus supporting their breeding program) who's warranty doesn't provide wording to cover particulars we feel are important... then that is OUR choice and we went in with our eyes wide open.

I know, for me, my $$$$$ ONLY goes to a breeder who has a program I respect and who's dogs I think are being bred for what I want in a GSD. 

What I know (really really really really know) is that all breeding is a bit of a crap shoot with the genetic thing. I can increase the chances of getting the pup I want (health and temperament) by having a breeder I really trust with a puppy warranty that fits my needs. My CASH is actually (in my mind) going to support their breeding program in the HOPES I get the best puppy for me based on their knowledge, skills in breeding, and ability to pick the best match for me in the litter. So I'm not paying for a puppy. I'm paying into their breeding program and getting a puppy (is that confusing ?) .

So I either trust and rely on the breeder KNOWING they are doing the best they can and constantly tweaking to improve their program as they learn and continue breed. Or I need to keep searching until I do find that breeder.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> WE need to do our homework
> 
> And if we choose to buy a puppy from a breeder (thus supporting their breeding program) who's warranty doesn't provide wording to cover particulars we feel are important... then that is OUR choice and we went in with our eyes wide open.
> 
> ...


That's a great perspective and way of putting it


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## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> WE need to do our homework
> 
> And if we choose to buy a puppy from a breeder (thus supporting their breeding program) who's warranty doesn't provide wording to cover particulars we feel are important... then that is OUR choice and we went in with our eyes wide open.
> 
> ...


That is very well said and I am trying to be as selective as I can. The issue is almost all of the "good" breeders have a waiting list for males that is very long. When you do find a "good" breeder that offers you a good chance to get a male that you are interested in it's hard to be as selective. Does that make sense? Literally everyone wants a male, I feel like I am searching for gold.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Sunny23 said:


> That is very well said and I am trying to be as selective as I can. The issue is almost all of the "good" breeders have a waiting list for males that is very long. When you do find a "good" breeder that offers you a good chance to get a male that you are interested in it's hard to be as selective. Does that make sense? Literally everyone wants a male, I feel like I am searching for gold.


Just curious, is there a reason you won't consider a female?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sunny23 said:


> That is very well said and I am trying to be as selective as I can. The issue is almost all of the "good" breeders have a waiting list for males that is very long. When you do find a "good" breeder that offers you a good chance to get a male that you are interested in it's hard to be as selective. Does that make sense? *Literally everyone wants a male, I feel like I am searching for gold.*


My main goal is health and temperament, period. I PREFER females, but if the breeder I wanted had the perfect male, then I'd have a male puppy (I'm lucky that Wildhaus mainly has female pups... but the people that want males are in exactly your situation  ). If I HAD to have one sex or the other based on the other dogs in my home, then I'd stick with that. But otherwise, when I am looking for a new puppy I only things I really care about (if I don't have are deal breakers):


Responsible breeder who's breeding goals I agree with
Health warranty (honesty about past health of dogs in program)
Temperament/drives of dogs being bred what I am looking for

So color of the pup (though I prefer sables and blacks), sex of the pup (though I prefer females), are all something I HOPE will happen.... I may end up surprised and get a black/tan male !

BTW.........

GIRL DOGS RULE!!!! :wild: :wub: :wild:


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## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

wyoung2153 said:


> Just curious, is there a reason you won't consider a female?


It's not that I don't want a female, my preference is just to have a male. I have had three dogs in my life and they were all males. I am just unsure what it's like to own a female and I wouldn't be looking forward to dealing with heat cycles. I wouldn't neuter/spay my dog until the dog is around two so heat cycles would become part of my life.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The heat cycle thing isn't as much of a nightmare as I thought before going thru it with 3 of my girls. I spay around 2 yrs so have at least 2 heat cycles to go thru and just finishing up with Osin. 

They have these great panties that just velcro on, and I use women's super large with wings sanitary napkins so VERY affordable. 

Here's even using men's underwear!






But use the LARGEST size liner with the wings


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have to say, I find the need for every little detail about a pup, a living being, needing to be "guaranteed" a bit disheartening. 

A breeder guarantee temperament. And someone does not do their work and ends up with a sharp/scared/rude/dominant/aggressive dog. And it's somehow the breeders fault and a guarantee is enforced. I don't get that. 

I also don't get, if after lots of conversations, lots of talks about what a dog is going to be used for, and a breeder sends a frightened shy puppy, why you would trust them again to pick a dog for you? They obviously don't know what they are doing. 

The things I get are hip/elbow and dentition. And honestly, not much of that is in the breeders control. 

IMHO. A guarantee should be "I as a breeder guarantee that I have done all necessary health testing on my dogs. I have raised and trained and shown my own dogs and I did my best to match a partner for my girl. And I guarantee that the male also has all the health testing. And I also guarantee that I will always be here for support, questions for the life of this dog. " because in the end, that is actually all they can guarantee. 

Sorry. I used to be all into the guarantee. But dang, these aren't dishwashers. They are living breathing, tripping, running into walls, dealing with you jerk neighbors kids, dogs. Life happens to them too. 

I have one caveat. I bought a Lab for USAR work. Was told they guarantee she will pass her CE or they will replace her or train her more. She was 16 months when I got her. I signed zero contract. And she did pass. When a few years later she had s seizure. They offered to replace her. Again. No guarantee signed, nothing binding. Just good people, breeding good dogs and standing behind their buyers and dogs. 

Sorry, this has apparently become a pet peeve of mine. Find a breeder you trust. Develop a relationship. 

If a certain level of drive and nerve are required, buy an older dog so you can see what you are getting. Everything else is a crap shoot.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I have to say, I find the need for every little detail about a pup, a living being, needing to be "guaranteed" a bit disheartening.
> 
> A breeder guarantee temperament. And someone does not do their work and ends up with a sharp/scared/rude/dominant/aggressive dog. And it's somehow the breeders fault and a guarantee is enforced. I don't get that.
> 
> ...


THIS, exactly. Thank you.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I guess I don't understand why it has to bother some people so much if a breeder wants/decides/needs to have a contract, warranty, guarantee, or whatever in the heck you want to call it! If that's what they feel is best for them and/or all parties involved then so be it!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

G-burg said:


> I guess I don't understand why it has to bother some people so much if a breeder wants/decides/needs to have a contract, warranty, guarantee, or whatever in the heck you want to call it! If that's what they feel is best for them and/or all parties involved then so be it!


I don't really care if a breeder chooses to offer one, and I've bought dogs with a contract for myself. I just don't like it when it comes off as a "red flag" to someone of the breeder chooses not to sell with a contract. To each their own, right?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The more I learn, the more I want to bang my head on my desk at these threads.

Ask yourself....what does a "guarantee/warranty" get me on a living being? I'm not talking about a contract that spells out conditions for lifting limited registration or spells out first right of refusal in rehoming a dog or anything that protects the dog. I mean a "warranty".

You want the breeder to guarantee temperament? How? When temperament is partially due to training and proper socialization? Is it largely due to genetics? Absolutely! Go meet the parents if possible. Ask questions on how social, balanced drives, etc. But the 'end user' has a large role in shaping that.

Ears? Hips? Teeth? Ask questions about the parents. As about previous litters. Ask about previous generations. The answer to those are in the history of the dogs being bred.

And WHY would you expect less due diligence from the breeder for a "pet quality"? if I'm buying a pet, I may want something different than the top sport or top show prospect but I'm still paying the same and I'm still expecting the same healthy puppy.

So now there is the buyer's responsibility for research. 

BUT...in the end, you bought a pet. If the ears don't stand, if he is missing teeth, if he has HD...are you going to give the puppy back as specified under the contract? Are you going to want another puppy from the same breeder that may have the same issues? So, in the end...where does that "warranty" get you? Are you willing to go to court if the conditions of the contract are not met?

Unless there is a serious issue with a dog, most people are not going to give the dog back when it's a pet. And a good breeder, regardless of any contract, will take their dogs back. So, IMO, this really goes back to the trustworthiness of all parties involved.

Now....having blabbed all that. I agree with Leesa. If someone feels the need to have a contract, or not have one, it's their business. If you aren't comfortable with the conditions, walk away.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I don't really care if a breeder chooses to offer one, and I've bought dogs with a contract for myself. I just don't like it when it comes off as a "red flag" to someone of the breeder chooses not to sell with a contract. To each their own, right?


Exactly!

It's almost like you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't..



> BUT...in the end, you bought a pet. If the ears don't stand, if he is missing teeth, if he has HD...are you going to give the puppy back as specified under the contract? Are you going to want another puppy from the same breeder that may have the same issues? So, in the end...where does that "warranty" get you? Are you willing to go to court if the conditions of the contract are not met?


What if someone purchases a breeding prospect? I would say yes, they probably would give the dog back.. And yes some would go back to the same breeder.. Could have been just the genetics didn't mesh right on the particular breeding pair..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I didn't address the "breeding prospect" or "sport dog" because the OP was asking about "pet quality". I think those people buying for that purpose have more in depth knowledge of lines, what to look for, etc. Some of those people are importing and foreign breeders don't have contracts or guarantees. Breeding and sport prospects are a completely different subject.


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## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

I have yet to get a dog from a good breeder, my current GSD is a rescue. Knowing what I know now, I will be MORE than happy to fork over the $$$ to a reputable breeder that I trust and really respect their breeding program. The more I learn, the more I realize that a good breeder is truly not in it for the money, and the more I realize what a bargain the $1200-$2000 im budgeting for my next puppy is! If you find a really good breeder, they are trying their best to produce happy healthy pups, and match them with the right people, and that's all you can really do.
Besides the fact that they make little money on each puppy ESPECIALLY when you consider the the time and energy spent on breeding their dogs, raising the puppies, titling and health testing their dogs, communicating with potential owners, providing lifelong support and advice to each person who brings home one of their puppies.... 
Seriously, a good breeder is pretty much giving you a gift! That's how I see it. I don't expect them to guarantee health and temperament for the life of the dog. That seems like an unreasonable expectation to me considering that we are dealing with living breathing creatures here.

Now, if I found that the dog had a health or temperament problem that existed at the time he was sold that the breeder could have caught... In that case, I would expect them to compensate in some way or take the puppy back. But I would hope that the breeder would do this with or without a contract because of who they are.

I've heard a ton of stories about (not so great) breeders not honoring their contracts, and the contracts being very hard to enforce and resulting in big legal battles. So really, the actual contract is only as good as the breeders word for the most part and I wouldn't put too much weight on it. 

For me personally, the only thing I don't like when it comes to contracts is when they give rules to follow such as what to feed, exactly when to neuter, supplements to give, and other things that pertain to how I care for my dog. I may 100% agree with the rules and follow them anyways... But I like my freedom and ability to choose, just knowing it's there lol


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunny23 said:


> It's not that I don't want a female, my preference is just to have a male. I have had three dogs in my life and they were all males. I am just unsure what it's like to own a female and I wouldn't be looking forward to dealing with heat cycles. I wouldn't neuter/spay my dog until the dog is around two so heat cycles would become part of my life.


I'm dealing with my first one and it isn't so terrible. It doesn't hurt that my husband was home alone for all the very worst parts. 

My dog knows the word "panties" and has known the word "kennel" for the last 9-10 months (she's 1), and she seems to understand that she can be naked outside in our fenced yard or naked in the kennel, but she has to wear her panties if she's loose in the house. She will actually choose what she wants to do. She isn't terribly enthusiastic about putting on the panties, but she's pretty good about keeping them on.

That being said, we're lucky that it's happened in spring, so she can be outside as much as she likes without being too hot or cold, and she also went into season late (this is her first and she's a year old), so we will only be dealing with this once with her. We'll spay her around 15 months of age, I think.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wyoung2153 said:


> I had purchased the pick pup, I wanted a particular temperament and I guess I include drive in temperament too, as I intended to do SAR with her. When I got her she was a ball of nerves and very fearful of new situations with no drive, really, was told she was not this way when she was sent to me. I did everything "right" and after evaluations from trainers familiar with the breed it was suggested to return. Per my contract, I could return and get a replacement pup if the puppy wasn't as I had asked for.


This is not typical, I've never heard of temperament being guaranteed and I wouldn't expect it. But I think in your case, you made it clear up front that you were looking for a SAR prospect and had certain requirements regarding temperament, and your breeder was willing to work with you to make sure you got the right puppy.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is not typical, I've never heard of temperament being guaranteed and I wouldn't expect it. But I think in your case, you made it clear up front that you were looking for a SAR prospect and had certain requirements regarding temperament, and your breeder was willing to work with you to make sure you got the right puppy.


You very well could be right  I actually thought about that after I posted.. Even still though, I get that it's not guaranteed, maybe that's the problem is the word. More so, you trust your breeder to give you a puppy with the desired temperament and disposition.. and while, yes training and socialization go hand in hand with they way your pup turns out, there is definitely something to the probability of a certain temperament in genetics. I mean, maybe that's more preliminary of the breeder, if she knows you were looking for a low drive, submissive family dog, she should look for that in the litter, and not give you the one that's displaying the signs of a driving, high energy pup. They should, in that case tell the potential owners, that they do not believe they have the right puppy for them and explain it to them and let them make that decision. So maybe you're right, not necessarily in the contract. 

Am I making sense? I am not a breeder expert, and maybe I am not using the right terminology.. lol. sorry if there's mixed things coming across here.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A lot of breeders that place dogs with working and sport homes will guarantee temperament. Many times if the dog doesn't work out, they will take the dog back and even refund price.

This does have a lot to do with the handler though. If the handler has a history/record of training and really knowing what they want, they tend to have a lot more bargaining power in those types of situations than a regular person. Many times, if the handler/trainer is well known, they can probably turn around and sell the dog that doesn't work out for them, at a higher price than the dog was originally purchased for anyways.

Remember...what doesn't work out for a high level trainer, might not necessarily be a complete failure, just not the high level dog they were looking for. In regards to sport, or even working, a dog might be more than capable of being a good dog for a novice/club level home, or even in some cases a pet home that's looking for an already well trained dog.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I have to say, I find the need for every little detail about a pup, a living being, needing to be "guaranteed" a bit disheartening.
> 
> A breeder guarantee temperament. And someone does not do their work and ends up with a sharp/scared/rude/dominant/aggressive dog. And it's somehow the breeders fault and a guarantee is enforced. I don't get that.
> 
> ...


100 % agree with this.


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## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

I must be missing something....

What is the point of going to a "good" breeder to pay $2,000+ to get the same guarantees I can get on Puppyfind for about $700? I get it, they guarantee against genetic hip problems, but what else? The contract I am reading literally guarantees NOTHING outside of genetic hip problems for up to 15 months on pet pups. Now some others in the thread are basically saying I shouldn't expect guarantees. What the **** am I paying a premium for then? lol 

You go to a good breeder to purchase a FAMILY dog, but you get no guarantee that the pup has a temperament suitable to be a family pet? You pay $2,000, but you get no guarantee that your GSD's ears will stand up? His testicles will drop? There will be no dental problems? Please someone explain to me what is the point of going to a "good" breeder who uses "good" dogs to breed if I get the same exact uncertainties that I would from a much cheaper breeder? This can't be real.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Limited registration - very common. Typically dog has to earn some titles to get the registration lifted. Often has to pass health certs as well. 
Warrantees -- some breeders will give a "replacement" dog without surrender if the first has a health issue that precludes some activities. Some breeders will take a dog back at any time. Depends on who you are dealing with - sorta like any other thing - value is dependent upon the person/company standing behind it.


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## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

middleofnowhere said:


> Limited registration - very common. Typically dog has to earn some titles to get the registration lifted. Often has to pass health certs as well.
> Warrantees -- some breeders will give a "replacement" dog without surrender if the first has a health issue that precludes some activities. Some breeders will take a dog back at any time. Depends on who you are dealing with - sorta like any other thing - value is dependent upon the person/company standing behind it.


With all due respect what does titles have to do with temperament and health?


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

Sunny23 said:


> With all due respect what does titles have to do with temperament and health?


Depending on the title/sport it tells a lot. 

It can tell you if the dog has good nerves, can be in a chaotic environment and be well behaved, is trainable and listens to its owner, or it has instincts that the a good member of the breed should have and acts upon them accordingly. 

It tells you that others who are respected in the breed as judges and breed wardens have found the dog to be a good example of the breed and looks, behaves, moves true to standard - that a male dog has both testicles, full dentition etc. (And yes I have seen contracts where a dog missing a testicle will get anything as much as a refund from the breed to a new puppy entirely because a lack of both testicles fails a breeder guarantee and it's considered a defect).

Titles aren't just to go 'oooh so fancy!' they have a purpose and a good breeder uses them to evaluate breeding stock and their programs accordingly and either the dogs they have and are producing are on track or failing in some way.


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## Sunny23 (May 10, 2015)

creegh said:


> Depending on the title/sport it tells a lot.
> 
> It can tell you if the dog has good nerves, can be in a chaotic environment and be well behaved, is trainable and listens to its owner, or it has instincts that the a good member of the breed should have and acts upon them accordingly.
> 
> ...


Got you. I just don't get it, if the pups are all from the same litter how do they not get the same guarantees? The contract is totally lopsided towards full registration pups and the breeder charges $500 more for full registration. Is this their way of trying to squeeze more money out of people? I'm seriously starting to think all of this "I got my dog from this breeder" stuff is nothing more than a stroke of the owners ego. If this is what people buy from these wonderful breeders than they're suckers. You can get the same guarantees for half the price.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

With a breed this common worldwide, we can all make a case for anything being "common" among breeders. The nice thing is, this means you can really get whatever YOU want. If you want teeth, testicles, etc guaranteed, find a breeder who does that (though I'm not sure how those things can be guaranteed, other than allowing a free swap if your dog has problems). If you are like me and do not care for contracts, signed agreements, or jumping through someone else's hoops for full registration, that's not a problem either because plenty of breeders are like that.

For me personally, the "guarantee" of temperament is doing the research up front. The last dog I paid money for was a dog I wanted to do Schutzhund with. I wanted to be competitive in that sport, so I went to a breeder that has a Schutzhund club, breeds Schutzhund titled dogs, has competed at a high level, and has produced many SchH titled dogs. I got a dog that was really good at SchH (and it wasn't just my training because when he was 2 he went to a friend who finished his SchH titles and competed in 2 large national competitions with very respectable placements for a young dog). In a few years, I want a dog that is very comfortable around water, would love dock diving, a natural retriever, and a temperament that is friendly and at ease with extended family and children so I am picking a Labrador Retriever from breeders who are known to produce this type of dog. Of course nothing is ever 100% *guaranteed* but you can always stack the deck in your favor by ensuring a new dog is the right fit and not just pick any breed or breeder and hope it works out. They either have what you want or they don't. I have found that the bigger struggle is learning what it really is that *I* want and need in a dog. Finding the breeders and dogs has taken less time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sunny23 said:


> The contract is totally lopsided towards full registration pups and the breeder charges $500 more for full registration. Is this their way of trying to squeeze more money out of people?


IMO yes. It does NOT cost $500 difference between doing a limited vs. full registration when registering a puppy so the only conclusion is that the breeder is using that to make money. A good hobby breeder who sells dogs on limited and then changes to full later on is not going to charge you $500, they would do it for the cost to the AKC or maybe even cover it themselves, being thrilled that a dog from their program has achieved what they feel is necessary to be granted full registration.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunny23 said:


> Got you. I just don't get it, if the pups are all from the same litter how do they not get the same guarantees? The contract is totally lopsided towards full registration pups and the breeder charges $500 more for full registration. Is this their way of trying to squeeze more money out of people? I'm seriously starting to think all of this "I got my dog from this breeder" stuff is nothing more than a stroke of the owners ego. If this is what people buy from these wonderful breeders than they're suckers. You can get the same guarantees for half the price.


As far as guarantees go, IMO this one is terrible. Add to that your above post on hips only guaranteed to 15 months. You can't even OFA until 2. All the pups came from the same litter, all the pups should be guaranteed the same, they all have the same genetics.

And as far as "buying" the full registration? that's crap too. Either you get full registration or you earn it. YOu don't buy it.

I would walk on this breeder.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

CaliGSD3 said:


> ...................................Knowing what I know now, I will be MORE than happy to fork over the $$$ to a reputable breeder that I trust and really respect their breeding program. The more I learn, the more I realize that a good breeder is truly not in it for the money, and the more I realize what a bargain the $1200-$2000 im budgeting for my next puppy is! I*f you find a really good breeder, they are trying their best to produce happy healthy pups, and match them with the right people, and that's all you can really do.*
> 
> Besides the fact that they make little money on each puppy ESPECIALLY when you consider the the time and energy spent on breeding their dogs, raising the puppies, titling and health testing their dogs, communicating with potential owners, providing lifelong support and advice to each person who brings home one of their puppies....
> 
> Seriously,* a good breeder is pretty much giving you a gift! *That's how I see it. I don't expect them to guarantee health and temperament for the life of the dog. That seems like an unreasonable expectation to me considering that we are dealing with living breathing creatures here.


Well put. I really look at my money paying to support a breeding program that I agree with, after doing MY research to know what that means to me  I may end up with a puppy after paying the money, but I hand over the check with my mindset of helping the breeder to continue the practices I have found to be in alignment with what I want for the breed.

Breeders aren't perfect, but the BEST breeders learn and tweak their breeding programs based on how it develops. For the good and the bad.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> As far as guarantees go, IMO this one is terrible. Add to that your above post on hips only guaranteed to 15 months. You can't even OFA until 2. All the pups came from the same litter, all the pups should be guaranteed the same, they all have the same genetics.
> 
> And as far as "buying" the full registration? that's crap too. Either you get full registration or you earn it. YOu don't buy it.
> 
> I would walk on this breeder.


I actually went back and read my contract, and while I won't quote word for word, the basic language is that if a problem crops up that meets certain criteria as a genetic health issue, I could be entitled to a replacement puppy. It goes out for something like 3 years.

Based on what I saw for the full vs limited registration, show=full and pet=limited, and there was a price differential. So that, to me, seems normal.

Edited to add: I wanted to chime in to agree with MaggieRoseLee that when you buy from a good breeder, you're supporting a philosophy and a program that you believe is bettering the breed overall. I also wanted to mention something I read on Ruffly Speaking recently where she wrote that when you buy a puppy from her, you're actually buying HER. I believe that, and my breeder seems to as well. I can email to ask anything from a specific question about puppy behavior to a food suggestion to "hey where'd you get that cool thing you sent home with us that first day" to advice on starting competitions with my dog. Obviously courtesy and boundaries are important, but I didn't JUST buy a puppy, I also bought a resource.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> As far as guarantees go, IMO this one is terrible. Add to that your above post on hips only guaranteed to 15 months. You can't even OFA until 2. All the pups came from the same litter, all the pups should be guaranteed the same, they all have the same genetics.
> 
> And as far as "buying" the full registration? that's crap too. Either you get full registration or you earn it. YOu don't buy it.
> 
> I would walk on this breeder.


^All of the above.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Sunny23 said:


> I must be missing something....
> 
> What is the point of going to a "good" breeder to pay $2,000+ to get the same guarantees I can get on Puppyfind for about $700? I get it, they guarantee against genetic hip problems, but what else? The contract I am reading literally guarantees NOTHING outside of genetic hip problems for up to 15 months on pet pups. Now some others in the thread are basically saying I shouldn't expect guarantees. What the **** am I paying a premium for then? lol
> 
> You go to a good breeder to purchase a FAMILY dog, but you get no guarantee that the pup has a temperament suitable to be a family pet? You pay $2,000, but you get no guarantee that your GSD's ears will stand up? His testicles will drop? There will be no dental problems? Please someone explain to me what is the point of going to a "good" breeder who uses "good" dogs to breed if I get the same exact uncertainties that I would from a much cheaper breeder? This can't be real.


People are trying to explain this to you: dogs are living things. THEY ARE UNCERTAIN BY NATURE.  Think of it this way: I can write up the most complicated guarantee in the world, I can specify every last health problem known to man will be covered, but it does not change the genetics of the dogs in question. It does not make the puppy's ears more likely to stand up. It does not make a nervous dog confident to have a piece of paper saying I guarantee it. I can't just state that I guarantee dropped testicles and that magically makes them drop. If that were true, anyone could produce perfect dogs! 

So, because a piece of paper can't tell you about the dog's genetic propensity for difficulties, you look at what CAN tell you something. You look at the dogs in the pedigree. Did they have any missing teeth? Do they have good temperaments? Did any of them develop arthritis later in life? You will know the breeder is good because they will tell you these things. It's the BAD breeders that say "Nope, no health problems here! Never seen any of those!" And give you a worthless guarantee. If the breeder is worth their salt, they know what their lines produce and can give you facts to back it up. They can tell you how long past dogs lived and why they died, they can tell you how those dogs were with strangers and children, how they worked and trained, what their strengths and weaknesses are. I would actually be very wary of the Puppyfind breeder who tries to convince you they can give you a blemish-free product. Animals are not perfect. We just need to prioritize what matters most and find breeders with the same priorities.

Another thought: if you really want a health guarantee/warranty on the dog, ask yourself for what purpose? Say you get a puppy that's great for you and the ears don't stand, what does the breeder do to make that right? Send the puppy back for a replacement? And yet by that time the puppy is a member of your family, soft ears and all. There are some reasons a warranty is useful. Working dogs need to be sound or their joints will deteriorate early, so hips/elbows are often guaranteed because it would be unwise to work a dog with sketchy joints. I guess if a temperament guarantee makes you feel better, go for it, just realize that the guarantee doesn't do jack to give the puppy an actually good temperament! That comes from the genetics, and the work you put in to training too. So we're back to finding a good breeder with good dogs again. 
Anybody can have a guarantee. Not everybody can have good dogs.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Sunny23 said:


> Got you. I just don't get it, if the pups are all from the same litter how do they not get the same guarantees? The contract is totally lopsided towards full registration pups and the breeder charges $500 more for full registration. Is this their way of trying to squeeze more money out of people? I'm seriously starting to think all of this "I got my dog from this breeder" stuff is nothing more than a stroke of the owners ego. If this is what people buy from these wonderful breeders than they're suckers. You can get the same guarantees for half the price.



This is a reasonable question. The differences in guarantees between show, working, pet homes is definitely something you should inquire about and seek the true reasoning. For what it's worth, there were no differences in the guarantee my working quality pup came with vs. the other dogs in the litter.

You are still equating guarantee with value, though, and that's just not the case, see above. I didn't believe my puppy would have the drive he does because of a guarantee. I believed it because he comes from a proven line, I met the breeder's dogs, and the breeder was transparent about how she evaluates the temperament of her puppies. Because of observations, not promises. If I thought he didn't have good temperament for work or wasn't healthy, I could have walked away from that purchase. I got exactly what I expected to get, no more, no less, and that is all anyone can expect from a breeder, even if they have no guarantee at all.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> As far as guarantees go, IMO this one is terrible. Add to that your above post on hips only guaranteed to 15 months. You can't even OFA until 2. All the pups came from the same litter, all the pups should be guaranteed the same, they all have the same genetics.
> 
> And as far as "buying" the full registration? that's crap too. Either you get full registration or you earn it. YOu don't buy it.
> 
> I would walk on this breeder.


I read the contract. There is more to it than ^^^. I don't see anything wrong with the contract or stipulations. Though I still think different prices for puppies in the same litter would not be something I'm interested in ever pursuing


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

To the OP in a lot of ways think of buying a dog as buying a computer. 

You and I both know that a $300 vs $1500 computer is probably going to be better.

(**** this even works with the 'just want a pet' oh I'll just buy a cheap computer to surf e-mail and watch Netflix vs. $1200 for graphic design that is going to be a workhorse for the business you are trying to set up).

Can things still go wrong? 

Of course. 

Technology loves to go wrong. 

So you stack your deck by getting a computer that costs more $$ up front but will likely last longer (something I wish I had learned - in undergrad I went through 3 computers in 4 years. They were cheap. Grad school I went up in price and current computer survived that is now 4+ years old with only minimal sluggishness).

Plus along with spending that extra $$ you get tech support. You can call up tech support and have them troubleshoot problems for you. They can advise you on how to fix issues. 

Your breeder is your tech support. 

And they will be there for the life of your dog. 

You go to best Best Buy you spend $1200 (dog) for the computer $300 (breeder) for the tech support and the warranty that comes with. Total $1500. You don't buy the $300 computer even though that was still your option because from your research and talking with people who know computers this is the better bargain for what you want out of a computer. 

Is the warranty going to cover everything? No. But it will cover some things. And if need be you can always call up your tech support and have them walk you through on how to fix an issue that instead of causing you to get frustrated and throw the computer into the garbage or off the balcony (kidding!) you can fix and keep using the computer for many years to come. (At least until it finally dies of old age).

(^^^ this was my attempt at the GO TO YOUR BREEDER WITH PROBLEMS instead of having a rambunctious puppy that overwhelms people who either attempt to fix the problem when it's too late or just give up and drop the dog off at a rescue metaphor).

This metaphor probably only works in my head but I felt right as I was typing it out.


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