# MUST WATCH THIS BBC DOCUMENTARY!!! Pedigree Dogs Exposed part1



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

I was sent a link from a friend and i watched it on youtube.if you are an animal lover or breeder,you have to watch this to the end.i actually cried through many parts and i am not generally emotional.i hope this will sink in to some breeders and future owners.this should awaken many people and hopefully something will be done about this.i was truly disgusted in some parts to the disregard some breeders had(the cavalier king charles) to their practices and their absalute knowledge of what they are doing.the rodesian ridge back comment about the no ridge puppies.the lady who states what is "desirable and what should be done with the rest"sick,sick,sick! She's sees herself as so righteous and that she's doing everyone a world of good by putting healthy puppies to sleep because they donot have the ridge.i will never look at the show ring the same way again and i hope never to become one of them.truly revolting how people can be so narrow minded in their quest to be on top and be #1 and discard all decency along the way.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

This video has been around for quite some time and has made the rounds on this board many times. It is a depressing video.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

This "documentary" was extremely biased. It featured no breeders who have had a positive influence on their breed. It featured nothing about advancements in health testing, which have largely been made possible because of breeders supporting health research. It didn't feature any reputable breeders breeding sound, healthy dogs of any breed. It didn't show people's pound rescue mixed breeds having seizures or dying young of cancer (it did feature some unsubstantiated claims that "mixed breeds are healthier" though). What it did feature was worst case scenarios in a handful of breeds being portrayed as what is wrong with purebred dogs and breeders of them. By showing only the worst and none of the good, isn't it extremely obvious what the purpose of this film was?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

There are 6 parts (or so) on youtube, and it was filmed in the UK.





 
YouTube - MandyLionWWIII's Channel

YouTube - MandyLionWWIII's Channel

YouTube - MandyLionWWIII's Channel

YouTube - MandyLionWWIII's Channel

YouTube - MandyLionWWIII's Channel


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with agile, it was very biased. I saw most of it. In any sport there will be individuals who will do ANYTHING / sacrifice ANYTHING to get a higher placement.


----------



## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

selzer said:


> I agree with agile, it was very biased. I saw most of it. In any sport there will be individuals who will do ANYTHING / sacrifice ANYTHING to get a higher placement.


I kind of agree that it was biased but I do believe that there was a method to the madness. I did find it to be quite revealing!

I had no clue that the "ridge" on the Ridgeback was a health hazard. Had no idea that the little King Charles Spaniel had such health problems and that many of the breeders had no regard for the welfare of their own breed.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The breeders they found to interview. 

I see a different story. Our shepherd club is mostly American line show dogs, though there are some of us Germans there. I often hear members of our group discussing health and temperament issues. This is somethin all reputable breeders are concerned with and working to improve.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm glad some saw the awakening of a desire for a better breeder/breed.i know that after this i have a new determination to be a better owner and possibly breeder for the future.i mean seeing an owner having to spend 40,000 just to keep her beloved pets alive.and the denial in the kennel club.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

tierra nuestra said:


> I'm glad some saw the awakening of a desire for a better breeder/breed.i know that after this i have a new determination to be a better owner and possibly breeder for the future.i mean seeing an owner having to spend 40,000 just to keep her beloved pets alive.and the denial in the kennel club.


 I was on another forum years ago with someone who spent close to that in medical bills on her mixed breed from the shelter.


----------



## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> The breeders they found to interview.
> 
> I see a different story. Our shepherd club is mostly American line show dogs, though there are some of us Germans there. I often hear members of our group discussing health and temperament issues. This is somethin all reputable breeders are concerned with and working to improve.


 
This is true but I personally don't want the GSD turned into what was on that video......if they do, I will ...........own a goldfish or something


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Denali Girl said:


> This is true but I personally don't want the GSD turned into what was on that video......if they do, I will ...........own a goldfish or something


 That is another thing that this "documentary" left out. The extreme showline GSDs don't have much impact on the GSD breed as a whole. The majority of GSDs do not look like that and never will.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

denali girl said:


> this is true but i personally don't want the gsd turned into what was on that video......if they do, i will ...........own a goldfish or something


the way some people think thats whats going to happen.i see extremisim in the americans too.look whats happened to the americanized boxer.gotta be taller,longer,flashier ect ect.now their eyes have pouched to the point they have to be surgically cut and stitched sometimes.cardio is off the scales.alot of people say the american shepherd is not in danger like the german......yea they may not have the roach but the ass end is getting awfully low and weak.i mean go and find the original standard of the gsd and it does not look anything like what we have today.its not hard to see.you just have to want to see it is all.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

agilegsd said:


> that is another thing that this "documentary" left out. The extreme showline gsds don't have much impact on the gsd breed as a whole. The majority of gsds do not look like that and never will.


everywhere i look i see just that.low,low,low.i think that it has an extreme impact because we are lead to believe that a breeder has the best wether this is true or not.we are lead to believe that anything but a breeder who shows is the right way to go.its flashy and glamourus and the dogs look so elegant yada,yada.people get sucked in.and most people that do are not really informed either.like the uk is trying to do, there should be better restrictions on who should breed and who shouldn't and that goes for both breeder and dog.i know that will piss off alot of breeders but the ones who get angry are the one who have something to hide.if they are honest about what they are breeding and have a true plan as to how to improve the breed rather than take away then that should be the way of it.i mean there is a crisis of unwanted pets.maybe this should be the time to make a logical call on who should be able to breed and make them prove it with health testing forefront and foremost.i dare say a goodly amount of unwanted dogs and cats would be cut in half if not more.if there are laws in place, many people will not want to break them.i think this will protect the animals as well as future owners.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I watched this show finally. It makes me laugh at some of the breeder's that brush off scientific facts about the genetic disabilities of the dogs. The show honestly scarred me. The most drastic change of dog I noticed was the English bulldog. I know on a debate site I'm on a lady was talking how she paid 2,000 dollars for her English bulldog and it it's descendants had all kind of titles. Now after watching that I wonder just how many health problems her dog has.


----------



## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

Biased or not I don't think that matters; I think what matters is that even if it's the MINORITY of show breeders who have such disregard for their breed it is still astonishing. And the Kennel Club's negligence is undeniable. They can become as strict as they want and breeder's aren't going to leave because there is no other big name club to register dogs through--most of those pompous breeders wouldn't be caught dead trying to sell "champion lines" as a member of the UKC or CKC or something haha.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

heagler870 said:


> i watched this show finally. It makes me laugh at some of the breeder's that brush off scientific facts about the genetic disabilities of the dogs. The show honestly scarred me. The most drastic change of dog i noticed was the english bulldog. I know on a debate site i'm on a lady was talking how she paid 2,000 dollars for her english bulldog and it it's descendants had all kind of titles. Now after watching that i wonder just how many health problems her dog has.


thats just it,its a paper trail to no where.its ink on parchment and thats it.if there was honesty behind it thats one thing.honesty is sorely lacking nowadays and papers or no,health records and testing is what needs to be boasted about not i paid $2000 for a mutant that cannot reproduce without a lift,or i have to have my young surgically cut out of me because my puppies heads are so gruesomely massive they cannot fit through a black hole and i will cost you tens of thousands in vet bills just to keep me breathing.these dogs cannot help it but they are seriously ugly.they have no function anymore rather it be the intended use or companion.you'll have to tell this woman that $2000 is the least she'll be paying in the next couple of years for that dog.yea,$2000 of severe inbreeding and gentetic deffects.good for her.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

tierra nuestra said:


> everywhere i look i see just that.low,low,low.i think that it has an extreme impact because we are lead to believe that a breeder has the best wether this is true or not.we are lead to believe that anything but a breeder who shows is the right way to go.its flashy and glamourus and the dogs look so elegant yada,yada.


 I find your posts extremely hard to read because of the punctuation and lack of capitol letters. I was able to get this far though...

Where are you seeing these extreme GSDs in every day life? I live in an area with lots of GSD show breeders and I still don't see that many show bred GSDs out and about. When I had an "specialty style" GSD, he sure didn't look like what anyone else's dogs around here looked like. This is an honest question because I find it very strange that people seem to think "most" GSDs look like show bred ones.




Heagler870 said:


> I watched this show finally. It makes me laugh at some of the breeder's that brush off scientific facts about the genetic disabilities of the dogs. The show honestly scarred me.


 You do realize though that the show featured nothing but worst case scenarios and clever editing right? That because Bulldogs have reproductive issues and no longer have useful function, doesn't mean that is the case with all breeds?



Dr89 said:


> Biased or not I don't think that matters; I think what matters is that even if it's the MINORITY of show breeders who have such disregard for their breed it is still astonishing. And the Kennel Club's negligence is undeniable. They can become as strict as they want and breeder's aren't going to leave because there is no other big name club to register dogs through--most of those pompous breeders wouldn't be caught dead trying to sell "champion lines" as a member of the UKC or CKC or something haha.


 I'm not sure what you're getting at with UKC and CKC? The documentary was in England, CKC is in Canada and UKC is US and I believe, Canada. 

It isn't the registry's job to police breeding programs. Their job is to sanction shows and keep records. Being increasingly strict with requirements for breeding would do more harm then good. If you want to know why, read this article: Australian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute, Inc.

Again, this documentary is not showing the whole truth. They purposefully chose not to. Cavalier breeders can't breed away from the two major health issues in their breed within the current gene pool. Unfortunately, no Cavaliers have the genes for normal hearts and more than likely most have the potential to produce Syringomyelia. This hasn't happened because show breeders are evil and don't care about their breed, it happened due to the size of the gene pool and because these are later onset problems (generally appear after the dog has been bred). But there is talk of an outcross project in the future, where another spaniel breed will be introduced to the Cavalier gene pool to bring in "normal genes" for hearts and reduce the risk of Syringomyelia. Dermoid Sinus is not found only in Ridgebacks and the other affected breeds do not have Ridges. I know a Terv who had it and can be a problem with Bull Terriers, Boxers, Shih Tzus, as well as other breeds _and mixes. _

Most non-breeders have a very overly simplistic idea about dog breeding. They feel that you breed two healthy dogs and you get more healthy dogs. And largely, the pet owning public seems to believe that if purebred dog has a genetic problem, it must mean they came from a bad breeder who doesn't care about health. If a mixed breed has a genetic problem it's just "bad luck". The truth is that no dog, regardless of breed or mix is genetically normal. All dogs, regardless of breed or mix have the potential to produce a number of genetic abnormalities. There seems to be a belief that if a dog has any relatives who have had any issues at all, no dog from that line should be ever be bred. While that sounds nice in theory, such dogs don't really exist because genetically normal dogs don't exist. The best that knowledgeable breeders can do is try to make educated guesses and use the health screening that is currently available.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> You do realize though that the show featured nothing but worst case scenarios and clever editing right? That because Bulldogs have reproductive issues and no longer have useful function, doesn't mean that is the case with all breeds?


Yeah, I realize, but it's hard to get past the part where they want to say there is not enough scientific evidence about genetic disabilities in the dogs. How about judges stick with judging and scientific facts will always overrule a judge that judges on just beauty.


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I actually did register my dog last night so I could see his pedigree and do some research on them. I had to pay 40 bucks just for that!


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

" find your posts extremely hard to read because of the punctuation and lack of capitol letters. I was able to get this far though...

Where are you seeing these extreme GSDs in every day life? I live in an area with lots of GSD show breeders and I still don't see that many show bred GSDs out and about. When I had an "specialty style" GSD, he sure didn't look like what anyone else's dogs around here looked like. This is an honest question because I find it very strange that people seem to think "most" GSDs look like show bred ones".


UNFORTUNATLEY MY KEYBOARD HAS GONE SCREWY BECAUSE OF CHILDREN SPILLING GOD KNOWS WHAT ON IT AND HAVE ISSUES WITH CAPITOLS AND PUNCTUATION MARKS.SO I CANNOT HELP YOU IN THAT AREA.I DID NOT REALIZE IT WAS SO DIFFICULT TO READ WITH OUT CAPITOL LETTERS. SO...... HERE ARE ALL CAPITOL LETTERS ;P AS FOR SEEING ALOT OF GSD'S WITH SEVERE ASS ENDS, I LOOKED FOR 2 YEARS FOR A PUP AND I SAW ALOT OF DIFFERENT KENNELS AND YES I SAW ALOT OF OF WEAK HIND ENDS.I ONLY SAW A SMALL PERCENTAGE CLAIM STRAIGHTER TOPLINES AND MORE AGGRESSIVE HEALTH TESTING ON ELBOWS,HIPS,EYES ECT.
SORRY I CALL IT AS I SEE IT.I KNOW MORE BREEDERS ARE TRYING TO CORRECT THIS ISSUE BUT IT TELLS YOU THAT YES THINGS HAVE PROGRESSED TO FAR IN THEIR EXTREMES AND THIS SHOULD BE A WAKE UP CALL FOR MORE RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS FOR THE PRESENT AND FUTURE.
AS FOR SMALL GENE POOLS,THAT GIVES THEM NO RIGHT TO PROGRESS WITH BREEDING.IF YOUR BREED IS SICK AND YOU ONLY HAVE ANOTHER AFFLICTED ANIMAL TO BREED TO THEN JUST STOP.I MEAN 2 WRONGS ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE A RIGHT.THESE BREEDERS IN THE UK ARE NOT STUPID.......WELL MAYBE SOME ARE,BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THESE DOGS IS DUE TO ARROGANCE AND GREED.THEY REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT YES THEY COULD BE WRONG ABOUT DECADES OF PURITY BREEDING AND WOULD RATHER SEE THEIR BREEDS DEMISE RATHER THAN,GOD FORBID,TAKE A FRESH OUTSIDE VIEW.MAKING EXCUSES FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE? AS YOU STATE "Cavalier breeders can't breed away from the two major health issues in their breed within the current gene pool. Unfortunately, no Cavaliers have the genes for normal hearts and more than likely most have the potential to produce Syringomyelia. This hasn't happened because show breeders are evil and don't care about their breed, it happened due to the size of the gene pool and because these are later onset problems"THEY HAD A CHOICE TO NOT BREED BUT THEY DID.THEREFORE DECIDING FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS TO BE CONDEMED WITH SICKNESS AND GENETIC FAILURE.WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO A BREED?CERTAINLY NOT FOR THE LOVE OF IT.IF I KNEW MY DOGS WOULD BE PREDISPOSED TO ALL THE COMPLICATIONS THAT THESE DOGS SUFFER FROM,IF I TRULY HAD NO OTHER CHOICE THEN I WOULD QUIT THEN AND THERE.SO MANY PEOPLE ARE ADVOCATES FOR ANIMALS THAT ARE SUFFERING OR POORLY TREATED,THEY VOICE THEIR OPINIONS LOUDLY WHEN AN ANIMAL IS ABUSED.I SEE THIS AS FAR MORE DISTRESSING AND CRUEL THAN RUNNING YOUR DOG BEHIND A TRUCK,NOT THAT I THINK THATS RIGHT.MAKING THE CHOICE TO KNOWINGLY BREED AN ANIMAL THAT WILL HAVE A 75 TO 80% CHANCE OF GETTING HD OR A BRAIN THAT WILL OUTGROW THEIR SKULL OR ANY OTHER OF THESE HORRIBLE AND BEYOND CRIPPLING, PAINFUL CONDITIONS IS JUST AS BAD AS THE JOE BLOW DOWN THE STREET THAT BEATS ON HIS DOG BECAUSE HE HOWLED TO COME INSIDE IN -40 WEATHER.NO EXCUSE WHAT SO EVER. AS FOR GENETICS,YES YOU MAY STILL GET AN ODD MUTATION FROM 2 HEALTHY DOGS BUT YOUR CHANCES ARE THAT MUCH LOWER(FRACTIONS LOWER) THAN IF YOU KNOWINGLY BREED 2 DOGS THAT ARE SO CLOSELY RELATED AS TO BE ALMOST BROTHER AND SISTER.YOUR OUTCOME THERE IS ALMOST ASSURED.GENETICS ARE NOT RANDOM AND CAN GENERALLY BE STUDIED AND PAIRED WITH OTHER TRAITS AND HAVE FAVOURABLE OUTCOMES IF YOU OUTCROSS AND KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR.WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS WITH OUR SHEEP AND CATTLE.AN YES HEALTH SCREENING IS AN ABSOLUTE MUST THAT SHOULD BE FOLLOWED RELIGIOUSLY.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> That is another thing that this "documentary" left out. The extreme showline GSDs don't have much impact on the GSD breed as a whole. The majority of GSDs do not look like that and never will.


I see an upsetting number of GSDs in this forum ...pictures by breeders and owners ... that have roach backs and extreme angulation who think their dogs are beautiful.

Eye of the beholder, I guess.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Here is an interesting discussion of the structure of the back:

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, THE BACK

From the AKC standard:



> ..._Topline_-- The _withers_ are higher than and sloping into the level back. The _back_ is straight, very strongly developed *without sag or roach*, and relatively short...


So why do some breeders keep breeding away from this?


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

heagler870 said:


> i actually did register my dog last night so i could see his pedigree and do some research on them. I had to pay 40 bucks just for that!


they will get their money out of you somehow.everyones a business.they make a chunk of change from a large majority of the american pet population.its too bad that they emphasize not nearly enough on health and welfare of the animals they are allowing in their register.but hey,if they get too strict that will reduce the eligable percentage of dogs and less registered dogs is not exactly good for them is it?when a company relies on one source of income,do you believe they are going to be truly unbiased?


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

YOU CAN WATCH THIS ON YOUTUBE ABOUT THE COMPARISON OF THE OLD GSD AND THE NEWER AMERICAN AND GERMAN GSD OR"SHOW"

History of the change in the german shepherd over the years


----------



## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at with UKC and CKC? The documentary was in England, CKC is in Canada and UKC is US and I believe, Canada.


I was just naming "lower quality" kennel clubs (and using CKC to = continental kennel club) to make the point that, no one is going to avoid THE kennel club because there isn't anywhere else respectable to turn to.

And if stricter policies turn away bad breeders who aren't trying to improve the breed, then I don't see the problem? Seems to me that good breeders, already doing medical checks and certs, would be in the clear and not have an issue with new policies?

And I'm not being a smart*** these are real questions haha, I don't show and don't know anyone who does, i'm just trying to think through it logically. I just cant see how you can make the argument that stricter breeding policies = bad for everyone?


----------



## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> It isn't the registry's job to police breeding programs. Their job is to sanction shows and keep records. Being increasingly strict with requirements for breeding would do more harm then good. If you want to know why, read this article: Australian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute, Inc.


And I didn't quite see the relevance of this article, mostly because it is discussing technologies used over 30 years ago--but what I mostly took away from it is that: 

"In spite of what happened with the Basenji, this should not be viewed as an indictment of screening tests. The problem wasn't the HA test, but the drastic culling process that breeders undertook when using it. If there is a test which can identify carriers, make use of it. Breeders need to know as much as possible about the genetic potential of their breeding stock."

I know that many, many breeders will not breed a dog with bad hips/elbows, etc, which they do out of their own willingness to improve the breed--but why can't registries make this mandatory for stud and bitch dogs? As I said...it doesn't seem it would affect good breeders...


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

dr89 said:


> and i didn't quite see the relevance of this article, mostly because it is discussing technologies used over 30 years ago--but what i mostly took away from it is that:
> 
> "in spite of what happened with the basenji, this should not be viewed as an indictment of screening tests. The problem wasn't the ha test, but the drastic culling process that breeders undertook when using it. If there is a test which can identify carriers, make use of it. Breeders need to know as much as possible about the genetic potential of their breeding stock."
> 
> i know that many, many breeders will not breed a dog with bad hips/elbows, etc, which they do out of their own willingness to improve the breed--but why can't registries make this mandatory for stud and bitch dogs? As i said...it doesn't seem it would affect good breeders...


thank you for logical sense.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

As for being concerned about breeders carrying on with their own interpretations s on breeding,look up belgian blue beef cows YES THOSE ARE COWS IN THE PICTURE WELL BULLS ANYWAYS.People who have not seen them before will get a shock at how much people have manipulated these animals to such an extreme with selective breeding.People who are around them all the time really do not realize the extent in which they have gone and they do not see they have created something distasteful and quite frankly disturbing.And yes these cattle are plagued with genetic disorders most other cattle do not have.I think about that *** end each time I start chewing my steak and I lose my appetite.I think alot of gsd breeders have become desensitised in much the same way


----------

