# Weird gulping noise from throat (mega pup?)



## DTS

My puppy has been making this weird gulping noise when he whines or breathes heavy. It sounds like it's coming from the throat. It doesn't happen when he eats, just randomly. He hasn't thrown up and eats and drinks like a horse. 

Everything else seems normal. It's just a really weird noise. 
Any ideas of why it could be? It's almost like he's sucking in air or something.


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## DTS

Or like he has bubbles in his throat. It's hard to explain. I'm going to see f the vet has any openings tomorrow. Just thought someone might have an idea.


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## TxQuax

I'm sorry, I have no idea and am not familiar with those sounds....but do want to wish y'all well at the vet. Hopefully it is nothing serious. Please keep us posted.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## gagsd

My first thought would be mega esophagus.


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## JakodaCD OA

It sounds like this is a puppy? I kinda thought what Mary thought as well. I would have your vet check this out


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## MaggieRoseLee

If he's normal health and vigor of the rest of the litter. Eating and drinking fine, then I'd not worry about it

unless....

you are a 'responsible' breeder and considering using him as a stud. If you are going to neuter/never breed him he's fine. But if you think you are going to breed you need to get a barium test done to assure he doesn't have mega esophagus.

If he does, he should be fine and is hardly afflicted. Problem is he can have a litter of puppies with all so bad they die soon after birth. You don't want to be responsible for all those deaths so would need to know ahead of time if he has the genetics. (and possibly tell YOUR breeder).

Megaesophagus

Canine Megaesophagus, Aspiration Pneumonia & Myasthenia Gravis


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## DTS

No,
We aren't going to breed him. But I wanted to know if it was something congenital or genetic such as mega E, because then we would have decisions to make as to what we wanted to do, either send back to breeder or if it was something we could manage, I wanted to do so. 
We took him to the vet and she has never seen this before. 
He eats and drinks normally, plays normally, so we are just going to watch him and see if he grows out of it. 
His sternum is very prominent so that might have something to do with it as when he makes the noise the left side of his neck moves funny. 
I never indicated i wanted to breed.
It just scared me and I wanted to make sure it wasn't anything serious.


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## trcy

My vet could not diagnose mega E or the underlying condition. After they did a multitude of tests, including exploratory surgery, because they were sure it was a blockage. Which it wasn't) they still did not know what was wrong. By this time my dog was very sick and weak and had advanced pneumonia. After seeing a specialist who confirmed it was mega e, but brought on by other health/genetic issues all my vet said was they had only seen one other case in 40 years. I have changed vets. If I ever have another serious issue with a dog I want it to be diagnosed and treated before the dog declines in health so much that we have to PTS. 

You may want to get a second opinion. I was told they didn't know, but that is not good enough when something is obviously wrong.


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## Sunflowers

I would get a second opinion.
If it is not mega e, it most certainly is nausea.


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## DTS

He only makes the noise when he whines or gets really excited. 
He hasn't aspirated or thrown up anything. 
Everything he eats and drinks stays down.


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## KimberRG

Sounds like my puppy may being doing the same thing. Sounds just like a hiccup and I never thought twice about it since she has never thrown up or had any issues eating.


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## DTS

Went back to the vet for his second shots and she said she did some research. 
She's thinking it could be either a respiratory obstruction or could be megaE. She is going to do more research on diagnosing puppies with megaE.
When she listened to him today he was whining and just being a puppy, she compared his breathing to "roaring" in horses. 
Since he isn't having any real symptoms behind the noise as far as exercise intolerance, aspirating food, etc we are goin back next weekend for chest x rays to see if there is anything obstructing. 
She says it could possibly be congenital. 
Just wanted to give an update.
We saw a different vet practice last week and she didn't think anything of it so hopefully my vet will figure it out.


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## kr16

If its Mega E, all your vet needs to do is an xray of the throat, it shows up. You do not need barium for an xray. Find a vet that knows about this it will help.

Do you hear it when the puppy runs around?

What you may be hearing is food or water that's in the throat.

Megaesophagus


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## GatorBytes

DTS said:


> *Went back to the vet for his second shots and she said she did some research. *
> She's thinking it could be either a respiratory obstruction or could be megaE. She is going to do more research on diagnosing puppies with megaE.
> When she listened to him today he was whining and just being a puppy, she compared his breathing to "roaring" in horses.
> Since he isn't having any real symptoms behind the noise as far as exercise intolerance, aspirating food, etc we are goin back next weekend for chest x rays to see if there is anything obstructing.
> She says it could possibly be congenital.
> Just wanted to give an update.
> We saw a different vet practice last week and she didn't think anything of it so hopefully my vet will figure it out.


If your pup is having this weird gulping symptom, then why did the vet give second round of shots? It is indicted that vaccines should NOT be given at signs of illness, this includes diarrhea itchy skin or any abnormality.

Is this pup getting Comfortis as noted in llombardo's thread? Do you think the vet is going to put that together with this symptom if they are type of vet that would vax. a puppy who is having possible mega E pre-symptoms or maybe laryngeal paralysis or other?

If you are using pesticides in a puppy stop....see if the symptoms stop...and go to a holistic vet that may be able to help undo the damage


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## MaggieRoseLee

kr16 said:


> *If its Mega E, all your vet needs to do is an xray of the throat, it shows up. You do not need barium for an xray. Find a vet that knows about this it will help.
> 
> *Do you hear it when the puppy runs around?
> 
> What you may be hearing is food or water that's in the throat.
> 
> Megaesophagus


Having had 2 dogs w/mega I know you DO need the barium and it's not just about xraying the pups throat.The esophagus goes from the back of the throat to the stomach and mega can show anywhere along that distance. 

Though have to say any mega pup that is normal weight and vigor should turn out fine and live to a ripe old age.


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## DTS

The pup isn't getting comfortis that's my older dog jasmine she's almost 4 years old. 
I haven't given any medication to him. 
I was unaware of the not getting shots thing. 
After his meal last night he started reverse sneezing which he has never done. 
At this mornings breakfast I think he regurgitated. I walked to the bathroom for a second and came back to him drinking something. It was spit up with whole kibbles in it. I pulled him off quickly. 
I never heard him make the throw up noise.
I'm getting nervous it's megaE. My vet is closed today so I'm going to call its thing tomorrow.


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## gagsd

Feed upright. If you have a staircase, putting the bowl up 3-4 steps where puppy has to stand on the incline <may> help. I keep my puppy's water bucket like that as I can not manage her water intake and it seems to help.
If it is Mega-E caused by PRAA it can be fixed and time is crucial as the esophagus may stretch more and more.
Get a skilled vet, get an xray, and then research. While it is a serious problem, there are many dogs (as MaggieRoseLee above proves) doing well with MegaE.


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## MaggieRoseLee

DO NOT FREAK OUT IF IT'S MEGA!

And chances are if you just read the internet or even listen to your vet you'll be in a blind panic!!!!! 

ACK!!!! :wild:

I've had TWO mega dogs and they did FINE with little or no management from me! The fact about mega (actually it's genetic so important you find out and tell your breeder) is that is can be FATAL to puppies when they are only a week old and still nursing, they can be very poorly and ill once they start on solid food from mom's milk, OR

and you need to hear this...

or, if they are 100% healthy and normal size/vigor as the rest of the litter then YOU have one with the best prognosis of a long, normal healthy life!

Did I tell you I'm on my second mega pup? First one lived to 10 years and died of something unrelated. My Glory B is almost 5. How sick does she look in this video at 75 pounds and just over 24" in height (bigger than her sisters btw in the same litter!).





 
I just used standard raised feeders for my dogs and keep them quiet for about 15 min or so after eating so the food has the extra time to get into their stomach.

There are TONS of choices, the one pictured will grow with your dog.
Elevated Dog Bowls: Raised Feeders for Dogs | PetSmart










Megaesophagus

I can't stress enough, LOOK AT YOUR PUP, and use that to KNOW how badly afflicted they are. Normal health/vigor CLEARLY shows that you've been able to get more then enough food into the stomach for normal healthy growth. So just manage the situation and keep up the good work.

BTW, it's not uncommon for our mega dogs to grow out of the condition entirely at around a year old! So just try to keep a lid on the regurgitation because a biproduct of that can be aspiration pneumonia and that can really mess our pups up. So they die of pneumonia NOT the mega!

:wub:


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## gagsd

The puppy I am raising is pretty severely affected.... but even that is doable so far with management. As MRL stated... if your pup seems pretty normal, is a good weight, active and otherwise healthy then your prognosis is excellent.
If it is Mega-E always keep in mind and if your dog develops a cough or cold later in life, make sure you get a vet check.
I did have an older dog who died of aspiration pneumonia. I did not know she had been a MegaE pup and when she developed a cough after a dog show the vet though it was just kennel cough. If I had known we could have started treatment much more quickly and aggressively.


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## DTS

My only thing is and this might sound selfish but;
If it is mega, I bought him from a reputable breeder and spent a ton of
Money on him. And including the vet bills that I'm incurring along with the x ray and barium test needed to confirm to let the breeder know I'm looking at most likely 700-1000. 
If I were to send him back I have to add shipping. Then I'll wait for another puppy and have to pay the pet sitter longer than I expected. 
I was just under the usumption you get what you pay for. 
If he has this, te breeder will only take him back and not help with medical expenses. 
Kind of makes you wonder about spending all this money to get a reputable dog and en up spending hundreds and possibly thousands to diagnose and manage an illness. 
I'm hoping if he does have it, it's a mild case or can be fixed. 
But ever since I've had him, we've been to the vet every weekend and he's going again for x rays. It's getting expensive. 
I understand "that's what happens when you get a dog" but I expected with going with a reputable breeder, I'd get a healthy dog.


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## katieliz

About getting what you pay for...not possible for any breeder to know about genetic health issues until the onset of symptoms. Please let your breeder know right away.


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## gagsd

Even good bloodlines can produce problems.
All I can say is that every Mega-e pup I have seen, even mild cases, I knew something was not quite right. In the litter I just raised for a friend, something was not quite right at weaning and the vet and I discussed it at 7 weeks old when I took them in for physical, and that is why I still have her.


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## gagsd

MRL- at what age were your pups identified as mega-E?


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## MaggieRoseLee

DTS........... we spend the *months* researching breeds and then select the breeder that we feel has the program we want to support with our cash money. If we've done that research then we should know they are doing the best they can with all the years of knowledge they have and are constantly working on to gain more.

Along with that we should also make sure there is a good Puppy Warranty so we know what the options are if a problem arises.

Because, and it's not 'fair' but reality.......... no matter how good a breeder with the randomness of genetics it's still a bit of a crap shoot when we decide to get a puppy. The odds of getting what we want and having it healthy with appropriate temperament are greatly increased with taking the months to get our breeder. But still it's just a bit of a crap shoot in the end.

Fact is, I no longer look at the cash I pay for a puppy as being for that puppy at all. It's for the breeder to show them that I support what they are trying to do and how they are doing it. So if I don't like their program or what they are trying to do with their dogs, I don't care how adorable their puppies may be... they aren't getting my cash.

BTW, the barium test/xray should not be that expensive. The dog is awake and it's just barium covered food. Call around to get better prices.

TALK TO THE BREEDER!!! I know that for me, since I supported their program (see above  ) and know they aren't perfect PLUS the puppy is everything else I wanted and deserves a good loving home. Then I'm it!

If you did due diligence, the puppy warranty should give you some kind of break. Either $$$ back on the pup you have or next puppy from them for free. If they will only take the puppy back to kill it and then replace it with another, your happy HEALTHY pup (that has 100% everything else you researched for from the breeder) then that's on you.

Work with the breeder. If they are all you researched and paid for they should try to help and definitely need to know about the genetics to probably not do a repeat breeding. Also to tell the OTHER puppy owners!!!! My first mega pup had THREE of the 7 in the litter with the condition (all three lived long NORMAL healthy lives pretty much growing out of the condition by a year old).

Puppies are not like cars or other manufactured products with a 'get what you paid for' guarantee. They are living, breathing animals with all the involves. 

Rather than just doing the somewhat normal freak out before you even know what's going on.....  watch the video of my 'poor sickly puny sad' GSD Glory B in that video. 

You have a puppy that is otherwise all that you researched and looked for and deserves all the love you have. Heck, you can get a replacement pup that has a heart problem! Or cancer! Or ........ no 100% for any of our pups.


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## MaggieRoseLee

gagsd said:


> MRL- at what age were your pups identified as mega-E?


Both mine had breeders that were really on the ball and able to really watch their puppies to see if something seemed a bit off. And I think both were just suspicious enough at around 7 weeks to take the pups to the vet at around 7 weeks for the barium test EVEN THOUGH they were all doing well and keeping up with the rest of the litter.

My first mega pup, Elsa Rose, was in a litter of 7 and it was just one of her brothers they were suspicious of. But since it was the Seeing Eye in Morristown, NJ and they have their own vets on staff they went ahead and tested the entire litter. Imagine their surprise when not only the male but another male and my Elsa showed the condition!

At the time, this was an immediate 'boot out' of the program. Both boys were immediately snapped up to be owned by employees and I got a call cause I had friends in the breeding program who knew I was thinking about getting a GSD. After they calmed me about the situation and said they would provide help for me problems came up, I took Elsa and NEVER HAD ANY ISSUES!

More importantly, because the Seeing Eye has a great breeding program they wanted feedback on how the pups all grew up and at about a year all 3 of these pups were taken back and giving the barium test again. One male was 100% normal on the x-rays! My Elsa and the other male were about a 9 on a scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being normal. Only one of the males ever got pneumonia in the first year and it was due to the fact they lived on a farm and the dog had porked out on WAY too much manure one day and the subsequent stomach issues caused the illness.

BTW, the Seeing Eye STOPPED booting out the puppies automatically that had mega after this because their continued monitoring showed many of the pups could still make excellent guide dogs for the blind as adults.

So when my breeder called me about GloryB and I knew she had the condition to the same extent as Elsa, I took her on without even having any qualms. ZERO. I knew she'd be fine with a bit of management and me paying attention the first year. She has never been sick a day of her life in relation to the mega and is almost 5.

Truthfully, the way my Elsa, GloryB and DTS's pups are is one of the reasons mega is still fairly common in the lines. All the poor breeders with no idea of the condition would never see it in their puppies and if they loved the dog as an adult would use it to breed with no idea the dog would pass it on.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Just went back and saw your vet has never seen mega before.... then be careful.

My first vet for Elsa was an idiot. I took her for her first regular visit, she was healthy and normal and just a few weeks out of the Seeing Eye and all their vet checks. Licking his face and running around the office. I'm the one who mentioned to him about the mega, he took one sympathetic look at me and at her, then sadly told me I may want to put her down (that day!) to prevent her from 'future suffering!'.

WHAT THE HECK!!! I told him I didn't think so.

And every year after that when we came in for our yearly visit I swear he was shocked she was still alive, healthy and not 'suffering'. 

ACK!


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## DTS

I guess I'm just on this line of am I over reacting and putting my dog through exams he doesn't need bc the vet suggested it or am I ok for doing this. 
I just want to make sure I'm doing everything in his best interest. 
He seems to be gaining about 3lbs a week. 
He gets 3 cups of orijen a day 1 cup 3x. 
I just don't want to look like some crazy yuppy whose taking her dog to the vet every week for no good reason. 
I'm going to see if he regurges any more or if it was a fluke. I still have the x rays set for Saturday. 
I know genetics is a crap shoot. 
I just hope he's gonna be ok.
Can he be diagnosed with mega this early if he was fine as a younger pup?


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## MaggieRoseLee

DTS, please read my threads.

Both my girls were diagnosed at around 7 weeks. And the only cost associated with the mega ever was the barium test/xray and it was IN NO WAY $1000. So if your vet, who doesn't know anything about the condition, is charging that cost then you are getting ripped off. I'd go somewhere else.

TALK TO YOUR BREEDER, they may even help with the cost to determine the condition to help decide future litters from the parent dogs and to inform the littermate owners of your pup.


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## kr16

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Having had 2 dogs w/mega I know you DO need the barium and it's not just about xraying the pups throat.The esophagus goes from the back of the throat to the stomach and mega can show anywhere along that distance.
> 
> Though have to say any mega pup that is normal weight and vigor should turn out fine and live to a ripe old age.



Wasn't talking to you. I know what you know, your the one who helped me with my Mega dog. You were the first positive one that I communicated with on mega. 

Most vets say barium, they are the ones who do not know about the disease. But I did just go back and read the thread and you said to get a barium. I didn't see that until I am editing this post. So not sure where your at with that.

In a pup one xray shows the entire throat area where the esophagus is located. You need to xray the lungs as well since AP can be going on and you do not know.


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## trcy

Riley had two pretty strong vomiting episodes. Only two. The second one had us at the emergency vet and then we went to my regular vet. He didn't think it was mega E and after it was diagnosed by a specialist all I got from my regular vet was " he had only seen one other case in 40 years in a much older dog". I also found out he had Myasthenia Gravis. His prognosis was very grim, but I know if he just had mega E we would have dealt with that.


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## kr16

trcy said:


> Riley had two pretty strong vomiting episodes. Only two. The second one had us at the emergency vet and then we went to my regular vet. He didn't think it was mega E and after it was diagnosed by a specialist all I got from my regular vet was " he had only seen one other case in 40 years in a much older dog". I also found out he had Myasthenia Gravis. His prognosis was very grim, but I know if he just had mega E we would have dealt with that.


Mega E is regurgitation, big difference. Sometimes you do not even hear it, it just a quick thing. You seem to have gotten a lot of tests. Its pretty easy to see Mega E most of the time.


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## DTS

I spoke with the breeder. And we are going to monitor him this week and see where to go from there. He had lunch and didn't regurgitate it. He licked his lips a lot and got the hiccups but no regurge. 
I still have the appointment for the vet, but the breeder feels that if he isn't having symptoms (he didn't before this morning/last night) to let him grow. 
They said taking him to the vet too much can damper a pup's temperament. 
I'm doing a ton of research and I guess I'm just in a situation were I'm darned of I do and darned if I don't. 
Breeder said to get with them before doing any more big tests. 
This is my first puppy so I'm a little nieve about puppy stuff even though I am trying to read as much as I can. 
Thanks for the advice and links, stories. I really appriciate it. 
I will update as this goes. 
Dinner is coming up soon so hopefully he will keep that down and this was just an isolated incident


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## trcy

kr16 said:


> Mega E is regurgitation, big difference. Sometimes you do not even hear it, it just a quick thing. You seem to have gotten a lot of tests. Its pretty easy to see Mega E most of the time.


We heard it. It was bad and he was in pain. He would regurgitate his food and then after heave up so much white foam and clear thick fluid. This dog never whined even to go out and he was whining after the second episode. (these episodes were weeks apart) The emergency vet thought mega E Right away, but they were closing so we went to my regular vet who for some reason did not think it was. We did the barium xray, then exploratory surgery, they took biopsies that came back negative, blood work that came back normal. After the surgery is when he got pneumonia. The specialist (another vet about an hour away) took an xray and said it was mega E. It was pretty severe. He would throw up is own saliva at the end. He also had Myasthenia Gravis, which impacted the muscles needed to swallow food and it impacted his back legs for three days before the last vomiting episode. When the specialist came back after the xray I could tell by his body language and how he was wording everything that it was really bad. Things like "we can try to" there is no treatment for mega E" "99% of the time we don't know what causes it" and "you have a very sick weak dog." He did not have a good prognosis and I could not let him suffer anymore. This all happened in 4 days. A week total if you count when his back legs gave out. I am the person who will go to the vet fairly quickly if I don't know what is wrong. He could not even keep water down.... I have switched vets. I'm just not confident anymore that tey can treat anything other than they norm. Ear infections, shots, spade/neutering)

He did not just have mega E though. We would have tried to deal with that. We did feed him elevated prior to all this. Only because he was having trouble with his right leg (pano) and it was easier for him to eat standing than having to bend over.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> I spoke with the breeder. And we are going to monitor him this week and see where to go from there. He had lunch and didn't regurgitate it. He licked his lips a lot and got the hiccups but no regurge.
> I still have the appointment for the vet, but the breeder feels that if he isn't having symptoms (he didn't before this morning/last night) to let him grow.
> They said taking him to the vet too much can damper a pup's temperament.
> I'm doing a ton of research and I guess I'm just in a situation were I'm darned of I do and darned if I don't.
> Breeder said to get with them before doing any more big tests.
> This is my first puppy so I'm a little nieve about puppy stuff even though I am trying to read as much as I can.
> Thanks for the advice and links, stories. I really appriciate it.
> I will update as this goes.
> Dinner is coming up soon so hopefully he will keep that down and this was just an isolated incident



Take the dog to a vet. The first set of xrays is not expensive. My breeder gave me my money back after he was diagnosed.

I did ask you do you hear the noise when the pup runs around. that is a sign as well. hiccups is common as well since air gets trapped in the esophagus. I hope its not mega and your pup is fine. If it is like Maggie told me its not a death sentence. A lot of what you read will be gloom and doom since the bad cases post more. 

Read up, it can be managed. Where you located some great vets out there?


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## kr16

trcy said:


> We heard it. It was bad and he was in pain. He would regurgitate his food and then after heave up so much white foam and clear thick fluid. This dog never whined even to go out and he was whining after the second episode. (these episodes were weeks apart) The emergency vet thought mega E Right away, but they were closing so we went to my regular vet who for some reason did not think it was. We did the barium xray, then exploratory surgery, they took biopsies that came back negative, blood work that came back normal. After the surgery is when he got pneumonia. The specialist (another vet about an hour away) took an xray and said it was mega E. It was pretty severe. He would throw up is own saliva at the end. He also had Myasthenia Gravis, which impacted the muscles needed to swallow food and it impacted his back legs for three days before the last vomiting episode. When the specialist came back after the xray I could tell by his body language and how he was wording everything that it was really bad. Things like "we can try to" there is no treatment for mega E" "99% of the time we don't know what causes it" and "you have a very sick weak dog." He did not have a good prognosis and I could not let him suffer anymore. This all happened in 4 days. A week total if you count when his back legs gave out. I am the person who will go to the vet fairly quickly if I don't know what is wrong. He could not even keep water down.... I have switched vets. I'm just not confident anymore that tey can treat anything other than they norm. Ear infections, shots, spade/neutering)
> 
> He did not just have mega E though. We would have tried to deal with that. We did feed him elevated prior to all this. Only because he was having trouble with his right leg (pano) and it was easier for him to eat standing than having to bend over.



The surgery they say is dangerous in Mega E dogs. I will not get my boy fixed unless he has to some day have surgery for something else. Not a huge fan of getting boys fixed anyhow so I am OK with that. 

Sorry to hear your story, its sad.


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## DTS

I want to say he might make the noise but I can't be certain. He definitely makes it anytime he breathes heavy/quickly when he whines.
He whines a lot. I'm not sure if it's just because he's a puppy and a shepherd or what. 
When the vet listened to his lungs yesterday he was breathing heavy because he was trying to squirm away. 
She said he sounds like a horse that has "roaring" syndrome. 
But after every meal without fail he gets the hiccups.

I'm in jacksonville, fl. My vet is most likely going to refer us to a respiratory specialist after the x rays. I'm hoping the x rays aren't bad. 
Between both dogs lately (jasmine has another lump, more superficial we got it aspirated and sent off Saturday) I've pry spent $600 in vet bills in the last month. 
It's draining my wedding fund lol.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> I want to say he might make the noise but I can't be certain. He definitely makes it anytime he breathes heavy/quickly when he whines.
> He whines a lot. I'm not sure if it's just because he's a puppy and a shepherd or what.
> When the vet listened to his lungs yesterday he was breathing heavy because he was trying to squirm away.
> She said he sounds like a horse that has "roaring" syndrome.
> But after every meal without fail he gets the hiccups.
> 
> I'm in jacksonville, fl. My vet is most likely going to refer us to a respiratory specialist after the x rays. I'm hoping the x rays aren't bad.
> Between both dogs lately (jasmine has another lump, more superficial we got it aspirated and sent off Saturday) I've pry spent $600 in vet bills in the last month.
> It's draining my wedding fund lol.


U of Florida is one of the best vet hospitals in the country. Call them they are reasonable. The way I discovered mine is it sounded like gurgling in the throat when he ran around. It took one xray to see it.


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## GatorBytes

9) Toxicity
i. Lead – sources of lead toxicity include old paint, old toys,
lubricants, hobby materials, automotive materials, plaster board,
roofing materials, fishing sinkers, and improperly glazed dishes.
ii. Thallium.​iii. Organophosphate.


I have a PDF on mega E (it's 13 pages or I would copy whole thing), but cannot copy it to this thread and don't know where to find on net...I can e-mail it to you if you want....just send me a PM with YES! in the tittle...It's not just genetic....as noted above.

What type of bowl do you use for food and water - Stainless is the only way to go. Glazed ceramics have been known to leech lead. especially from china. Toys are another concern as many are manufactured in china


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## DTS

PM'd you  
thanks so much!
Yes we use stainless steel bowls for him.
We do have a plastic bowl for jasmine because it is one of those bowls that slows down her eating so she doesn't gulp it down. 
He will need one eventually because he scarfs his food. 
he didn't regurgitate any of his dinner tonight


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## GatorBytes

Sent the file, check your inbox


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## onyx'girl

Would PRAA present the same type symptoms?


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## DTS

besides the reverse sneezing and one episode of regurging his food, the only symptom I can see is being thin and having an appetite like a horse.
we have upped his food to 4 cups of orijen large breed. We have had him almost a month and he was 10-11lbs when we got him and he weighs 16.8-17lbs right now and all his ribs show and when you pet him you can feel all of his bones. 
but he eats 3x a day, 4 cups a day.


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## onyx'girl

RAW isn't an option for you?


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## DTS

ive been thinking about it, and I have wild wolf's Ebook on it. my only concern is freezer space. 
But, im spending $150 on dog food every 6 weeks. might be time to do more research on meal plans.


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## trcy

DTS said:


> PM'd you
> thanks so much!
> Yes we use stainless steel bowls for him.
> We do have a plastic bowl for jasmine because it is one of those bowls that slows down her eating so she doesn't gulp it down.
> He will need one eventually because he scarfs his food.
> he didn't regurgitate any of his dinner tonight


If you put a couple of toys in the bowl with their food it slows them down. I Use a ring toy or a ball and a large kong.


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## DTS

With the gurgling noise, has it ever seemed it hurt the pup? 
He whined all night, which isn't too unusual because he whines constantly. But he kept making the noise and them seemed to whine louder. 
I'm calling the vet when they open.


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## gagsd

A couple of us with experience raising a Mega-E pup have posted.
Please do get a diagnosis. PRAA can cause Mega-E symptoms and is FIXABLE. 

My mega-E pup whines and gets a very uncomfortable "look" when she "knows" she is going to regurg. I would imagine it is like the "I am about to be sick and am trying really hard not to" people experience.

I had no luck with raised feeder like MRL has, but the puppy I am raising is it sounds, more affected. I have her stand with front feet on my lap and hand feed her from a bowl placed above head height. I also have to soak the food as I am feeding kibble. Then I keep her up as long as I can, and into a crate she goes for at least an hour post-feeding.
She has not regurged in about a month now (that I know of).

Each dog is different, but before you make decisions you need a diagnosis.


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## kr16

gagsd said:


> A couple of us with experience raising a Mega-E pup have posted.
> Please do get a diagnosis. PRAA can cause Mega-E symptoms and is FIXABLE.
> 
> My mega-E pup whines and gets a very uncomfortable "look" when she "knows" she is going to regurg. I would imagine it is like the "I am about to be sick and am trying really hard not to" people experience.
> 
> I had no luck with raised feeder like MRL has, but the puppy I am raising is it sounds, more affected. I have her stand with front feet on my lap and hand feed her from a bowl placed above head height. I also have to soak the food as I am feeding kibble. Then I keep her up as long as I can, and into a crate she goes for at least an hour post-feeding.
> She has not regurged in about a month now (that I know of).
> 
> Each dog is different, but before you make decisions you need a diagnosis.



You never tried the Bailey chair? That works great for us.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> besides the reverse sneezing and one episode of regurging his food, the only symptom I can see is being thin and having an appetite like a horse.
> we have upped his food to 4 cups of orijen large breed. We have had him almost a month and he was 10-11lbs when we got him and he weighs 16.8-17lbs right now and all his ribs show and when you pet him you can feel all of his bones.
> but he eats 3x a day, 4 cups a day.



Most GSD puppies look thin until they get to 2 and above. 4 cups of Orijen at that age is way to much. The bag doesn't even suggest that much. Its 3 cups at 44 pounds if my memory suits me correct on Orijen LBP. If the dog does have Mega do not feed more than needed.

Also research raw with Mega, not recommended at all.


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## onyx'girl

> *Originally Posted by DTS *
> besides the reverse sneezing and one episode of regurging his food, the only symptom I can see is being thin and having an appetite like a horse.
> we have upped his food to 4 cups of orijen large breed. We have had him almost a month and he was 10-11lbs when we got him and he weighs 16.8-17lbs right now and all his ribs show and when you pet him you can feel all of his bones.
> but he eats 3x a day, 4 cups a day.





kr16 said:


> Most GSD puppies look thin until they get to 2 and above. 4 cups of Orijen at that age is way to much. The bag doesn't even suggest that much. Its 3 cups at 44 pounds if my memory suits me correct on Orijen LBP. If the dog does have Mega do not feed more than needed.
> 
> Also research raw with Mega, not recommended at all.


If the dog has only regurgitated once, but is having gurgling/reverse sneeze, I'd be more apt to think it is a respiratory issue not Mega or PRAA.(hope so!)
And the lack of weight gain may be due to EPI or parasites. That is why I suggested raw as an option for nutrition. 
DTS, Please update us when you get results from vet testing.


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## gagsd

kr16 said:


> You never tried the Bailey chair? That works great for us.


 As she is growing, and I have a REALLY hard time keeping her still, we have not ventured into building a Bailey chair. I keep hoping I will find her a home now that she seems stable and they can build her one..... Call me a positive thinker, LOL!


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## DTS

The breeder suggested upping the food amount to 4 cups. 
We've been feeding 3 up until a day or so ago. 
He has a vet appointment to get x rays so I will post when we get the results. 
It's not like I'm not taking him to the vet because I am. I work 7-5 m-f and I'm on call
Which means I need to be 30 mins or closer to the hospital in case of an emergency. It doesn't leave me anytime for the vet except for my appointment. I've been on call all last week and this week.
And if I get called in while at the vet if have to leave him there until I was done which they would be closed by then so he would have to stay over night for no reason.


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## DTS

Titan is at the vet for his x rays and barium test. 
She said she takes 2 regular films and 4 films after the barium. 
For that, it's costing $455. If she (the vet) needs more films
It would cost $694.
I have that free trial pet healthcare from
AKC, would this be able to be covered? It says it doesn't cover anything congenital
Or inherited but we only with a diagnosis will we know if it is or not. 
Will update with the results later.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Can't wait to hear the results! 

Mega itself doesn't make our pups skinny. It's if they keep regurgitating so never get food into their stomach that will have them lose weight and fail to thrive. So if there is little or no regurgitation, then all that food IS making it into the stomach so I'm agreeing with everyone else. Up the amount of food while keeping in mind our pups can be NORMAL and on the slender side.

The gurgling seemed more to surprise my pup then anything else, like they couldn't figure out where it was coming from. Didn't appear painful to them though.


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## DTS

The results are in. And it is megaE. She said in her opinion it is a moderate form and is congenital. After 5 mins the barium was still in the esophagus.


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## DTS

I just spoke with the breeder. They will send me a replacement pup, but they want him put down. Breeder says that it is a life long painful thing for the dog to go through so while he's young to just out him down. 
I'm not ready to make that decision yet.


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## BowWowMeow

Shame on your breeder! There are many dogs with mild mega-E who live long, health and happy lives. S/he needs to educate her/himself about this disease. 

I fostered a pup who was born with PRAA, had the corrective surgery, developed mild Mega-E and did fine eating a slurry style food. He didn't even need a Bailey chair. I also met another dog through rescue with mild Mega-E and she ate food that was basically meatball style and again did fine with no Bailey chair. 

There are people on this forum (including MRL above) who have a lot of experience and can offer support and advice on food, etc. I'm glad you are not going to give up on this pup!


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## trcy

DTS said:


> I just spoke with the breeder. They will send me a replacement pup, but they want him put down. Breeder says that it is a life long painful thing for the dog to go through so while he's young to just out him down.
> I'm not ready to make that decision yet.


That is a hard decision. (hugs) I hope she doesn't breed those dogs again.


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## DTS

I'm just extremely overwhelmed. I definitely wasn't expecting that response, but it is a business and technically Titan is a Product.
I get where they are coming from, I just don't know how to handle all this. 
If he has moderate megaE can it get worse as he ages?
I just don't know how to make this decision.


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## 2S1H

As stated, the breeder does need to educate themselves about Mega E. 

Although there are no guarantees, ME pups can live a good life. As I type this I can look beside me & see my 8 ½ year old & 5 year old GSDs both of which have congenital ME. They aren’t in any pain.

There are many resources available to educate & for support. I know you must feel overwhelmed right now, I know I did when I 1st got the diagnosis, but please take the time to gather as much information as possible before you make any decisions.

Yahoo group link
Yahoo Groups

Informational link
Canine Megaesophagus, Aspiration Pneumonia & Myasthenia Gravis

Sidney’s Blog
Canine Megaesophagus

Facebook Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/4329632343/?ref=ts&fref=ts


Andrea 
& Jersey 8 1/2 year old GSD with ME (congenital)
& Diva 5 year old GSD with ME (congenital)


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## DTS

Thank you for all the links! 
I've read and done a ton of research but still need to do a ton more. 
My fiancé wants to speak with the vet before we make a final decision, but I've already made one. 
In my medical experience I see a lot of sick people, and even though he has megaE, he's a very happy, energetic puppy. A little on the thin side but he's full of energy and appetite. 
I can't in my mind, put him down knowing that he doesn't appear, not act in pain or seem to be suffering. 
His biggest fear is this getting way worse than we can handle. I'm afraid of that as well.


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## onyx'girl

So the breeder won't let you keep him and possibly give you a refund? Why would the breeder want him back just to put him down if you are willing to keep him? I'm surprised the breeder didn't notice anything off when he was weaned.


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## DTS

When I spoke with him, he didn't ask if
I wanted to keep him. We are going to ask if we can just keep him and get a refund. When I told him, he apologized and said he had never had a dog he bred with MegaE and that he will send me a replacement as soon as he gets one but the pup needs to be put down because it's a huge life change having to feed little bits all the time and how he would be in constant pain. It would be best to be done while young. I told him I wanted to talk it over and he cut me off and said it was the only thing to do and that he didn't want to sound harsh, but he wanted to be realistic. 
I'm gonna speak with the vet and then email them and see if they are willing to just give a refund.


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## onyx'girl

He needs to read up on it then and see how many dogs can live a good life, depending on the severity of the case.
I think your breeder needs to let it sink in a bit too. So sorry you are dealing with this.


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## MaggieRoseLee

DTS said:


> I just spoke with the breeder. They will send me a replacement pup, *but they want him put down*. Breeder says that it is a life long painful thing for the dog to go through so while he's young to just out him down.
> I'm not ready to make that decision yet.


Why are you not listening to me?

PLEASE.

I have posted in each and every one of my posts that if your puppy is healthy and normal and doing fine not only should it continue to grow normally but there is a HUGE chance of growing out of the condition.

So you will be killing, for sure

for sure

a puppy that is in your house that has an almost 100% chance of growing up healthy and normal with a long life.

Did you watch the video of Glory B? Would you like to send it to your breeder? Would you like me to email or talk to your breeder? 

I have raised not just one but TWO mega puppies. I have friends who were breeders and a vet with the Seeing Eye and they had more mega pups then you'd want to know about that were proven to do so well they no longer got kicked out of the program.

Can mega be serious? YES. Can puppies die? YES. But those are not puppies like yours (and mine). 

*BTW, your smart breeder is doing EXACTLY the thing that the other 'smart' breeders are doing that is helping to keep mega in our breed. By KILLING all their mega puppies, they can honestly say they have no mega puppies and dogs in their breeding program. VOILA, problem removed and no mega situations.......... *

For me this would go as a lesson learned. Keep and love your puppy to give it the long healthy life it deserves. ANY puppy can suddenly have a medical condition and in some ways you are lucky your pup is barely afflicted and can be managed. The fact you can prove to your breeder that there is no pain and suffering and your puppy is healthy and NORMAL may teach them something. Be interesting if they've killed pups in the past that weren't thriving or suspected had mega but didn't test so, once again don't have to specifically lie but they have removed the problem by killing an innocent and healthy puppy.


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## 2S1H

Step back, breathe & do not speak to the breeder until you can figure out what you can /or not handle with a dog with “special needs” 

If you don’t think you can handle this, PLEASE! Offer him to someone that is more than willing and able to give the dog a real life! Do Not return him to the breeder! Breeder seems to me like they are protecting their “$” ie assets 

I drove 1,000 mile round trip, by myself, & had to cross international borders to bring home my 2nd ME girl. I am a sucker for a GSD!

This is very close to my heart when I have my 2 sitting right beside me.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> This is very close to my heart when I have my 2 sitting right beside me.


 Me too, only with one dog. Who's almost 5 yr old and getting her Championship in AKC agility cause she's 75 pounds of hale and healthy GSD!!!


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## 2S1H

MaggieRoseLee are you or have you, been on the Yahoo group with your ME dog? 

Me & the girls are so in a every day routine, I some times forget that they actually have it. Not to say that it is easy, but it is just a way of life for us.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I am on the yahoo site but don't really read or post anymore. Truth is, the people that really need help and have the very afflicted dogs are the ones posting the most, and that's not my situation so can't really add much to help. That's actually one of the 'problems' those with the very sick dogs post all the time on the internet and those are the ones newbies read about and reasonably then panic.

For the many of us that have the dogs that end up doing well and live long normal lives, we don't need help, aren't desperate, and so don't end up giving a more balanced picture about the condition. 

I've been in the mega world for over 14 years (crazy that I just added that up  ) so really do know what I'm talking about. If a mega puppy is normal weight and vigor at 7 weeks old, tearing around with the rest of the litter then chances are that puppy not only will live a normal healthy life but also many owners/breeders/vets will ever even know that puppy has a problem. Just getting a barium confirmation doesn't suddenly mean that same puppy is suddenly going to start suffering and falling apart. 

Unless the associated heart condition is the problem (and that can be fixed with a surgery) we need to use our brains and LOOK at our puppy. If they are happy, healthy and NORMAL................ then chances are you can keep them that way with the knowledge we just need to be a bit more aware if a problem crops up. If plenty of food is getting into their stomachs then they will grow! And if we can limit the regurgitation then we can limit the chances of aspiration pneumonia. And even the pneumonia, when treated early, can easily be gotten over by a healthy pup.


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## MaggieRoseLee

This was my first mega dog, Elsa Rose with her story. She lived to 10.5 yrs and died very suddenly of some issue (probably cancer).

agility

Here she's photographed with my 2 friends and their dogs going into NYC after 9/11 as Therapy Dogs to help. If she had been killed as a puppy she'd have never helped all the hundreds we got the opportunity to visit with.

4GSD - Service and Therapy Dogs


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## DTS

Why are you not listening to me? 
If you read my posts, that's what my BREEDER wants
AS I SAID before,
I'm not going that route. He doesn't seem to be suffering to ME. 
I AM NOT PUTTING HIM DOWN
Jeez. I am not heartless.
We got him raised bowls and are going to start making his good mush. 
Can he have bully sticks or treats? I know a lot of
People say no treats but he doesn't have trouble with them and I make th
Small bite size.


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## JakodaCD OA

I guess my question would be, if this breeder has never produced a mega e puppy, why is saying put it down, put it down? Clearly, he isn't well informed on how most mega e puppies can live a long fulfilling life...

Maggie Lee's dogs are PERFECT examples. 

I would discuss the situation with your vet or a vet that is knowledgeable in mega e puppies , what to expect etc. 

I would also re read the postings here of members who HAVE mega e dogs. 

It sounds like this puppy's condition is perfectly manageable , not severe, and I would ask the breeder for a refund vs putting the puppy down but that's just 'me'.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> If you read my posts, that's what my BREEDER wants


 But with all the real actual research you've now done talking to people with puppies like your's you now KNOW that is bad advice and can disregard it.

Right? 

Love to hear what your breeder says a year or so from now when you show them all the photos (or take your dog to see them) and they can learn to no longer kill their healthy puppies. Unless they still want to remove the evidence of the genetics from their lines.


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## DTS

My fiancé isn't on board as I am. He wants to know if this could get worse down the line. But, it's my dog, my decision. On Monday I'm going to discuss with the vet what I plan on doing. She gave me some pamphlets and I've read a ton online. 
From what I gather, and just by watching him I don't think its that bad. 
He's a happy puppy. Very playful, loves to eat and drink. Loves to play. I REFUSE to put down a dog that acts like that. 
I will email the breeder and let him know what I plan to do and hope they will gve me
A refund, if not, lesson learned. 
Maybe his wife will be different. After my initial phone call this morning they have not tried to get in contact with me. 
I guess for someone who is supposed to be reputable, I'm a little displeased with our conversation. He was very stern and cold. But hes also a guy, maybe his wife will have more compassion.
Or maybe they really don't want a mega pup on their record. I just hope they don't repeat the breeding.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Your vet sounds inexperienced in this area. Which is fine, they all can't know all things. But what you could do now, in addition to joining the Yahoo group (there's a vet on there) is go to your teaching hospital in Florida to confirm diagnosis and get more comprehensive information on what to expect with your pup's level of Mega E (and rule out PRAA). Because they see it all the time, they will be able to tell you more, much like MRL is saying, is my guess. That will help you relax. 

You've done a good job in following up a concern many others might have ignored. Now you need to get more information to help you decide how to handle it. It sounds like your puppy is living well with it thus far. In the rescue I volunteer with I've seen the PRAA and varying levels of Mega E (some with other things as well). The last pup was in good shape and is thriving! We have 3 fosters who are good at Mega E and seem to "like" it, like others like other things. They all say there's nothing like the bond with a Mega E dog. That Yahoo group will be helpful. 

Be aware that there are people who will offer to take this puppy. They are not with a rescue. PM me if any questions.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> ...........Or maybe they really don't want a mega pup on their record. I just hope they don't repeat the breeding.


 That's what I'm wondering. And if they are hiding a condition like this there maybe other things going on. 

Love that you are considering doing the right thing by this pup. I know it took about an hour to get convinced to take on my first mega dog, Elsa who I had never even met. I had never even heard of the condition before the phone call started. But basically it came down the fact I knew she had a great personality and otherwise should have great hips/elbows/temperament of the type of GSD I was considering. So I knew that even if the worst happened, she was worth all my love and time for as long as she was in my life. So I said yes and never regretted it.

Keep in mind, there are clearly other mega puppy/dog owners on this forum you can PM or otherwise contact for questions and reassurance. Plus there is the yahoo group but PLEASE keep in mind the vast majority of the posters are those new to the condition and possibly with dogs that are already very ill. So those that are the ones more afflicted and that were probably very ill and sickly since they were only a few weeks old.

I'm sending a hug your way, can you feel it?


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## DTS

The vet did rule out PRAA. 
She showed me the x rays and then showed me x rays of a dog with PRAA. 
He just has a "moderate" form of congenital ME. She told me to get him on an acid reducer and give 5-10mg a day for his size. She told me to
Definitely soften and mosten his food. 
I have GERD and take acid reducers to help my reflux so me and the pup have a lot in common . 
She also said to try and get him to sleep elevated if possible along with elevated feeding and water. 
She told me she didn't think he was severe enough for a bailey's chair. 
From the x rays his esophagus didn't seem extremely stretched like the ones I've seen online. His seems to be a bit enlarged, but not so, that a ton of food collects in it. Most of the food reached the stomach. 
She said its far from the worst case she has seen, but isn't quite mild.
She mentioned antibiotics as a precaution for Aspriation Pneumonia. X rays showed clear lungs so it was as a precaution. I'm considering them, but didn't take them, I can always ask for them on Monday.


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## 2S1H

You have a good vet! & I think you have a good handle on your situation. In the short time reading, you have the medical/research capacity to handle this if you chose.

When I 1st got the diagnosis, I cried, I had a long pitty party for me! Then I stepped back & tried to figure out how we were going to deal with the “hand” we were dealt. I made it work with the 1st one, & then when I fell in love with my 2nd, I traveled a 1,000 mile return trip to bring home a GSD with known ME across international borders! Apparently a lot of people think I am nuts! Maybe I am! 

It can work if you are up to the challenge.


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## DTS

Spoke with breeder asking if we can keep pup and get a refund. 
He said that they don't do refunds just replacements. If we decide to keep him and raise him he's "glad for our decision" but will replace if we want.
I'm not sure I see a difference. He's losing the same amount of money is he gives us money vs giving us a pup. 
Live and learn I guess.. So much for standing behind your dogs


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## onyx'girl

Do you get full registration when purchasing? If so, you could get a replacement and resell (I know, dogs are not merchandise!!) to recoup your investment/pay the medical bills of the pup they wouldn't refund.


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## DTS

Yes, we do. I thought about that, but it's not in me to do that. 
Plus I live in an apartment and our max dog limit is 2. 
He now wants to see the x rays, which is fine. I planned on sending them the report. He wasn't interested in it earlier but now he is. 
Oh well. Life lesson... Just a very expensive one.


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## onyx'girl

"I think" the breeder is fairly responsible. He probably needs to absorb all of this and I sure hope will come to the right decision after doing some homework. His name is easy to discovererd(your thread history on this board) and the kennels reputation may be on the line if he chooses to try to hide this under the rug.


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## GatorBytes

How old is your pup? sorry if I missed earlier


----------



## huntergreen

dts, i have nothing to offer in the way of advice, but kudos for hanging on to your pup and doing what you can to give a nice loving long life.


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## DTS

He's 12 weeks. 
I mean I don't want to put his kennel on blast and get sued somehow for libel even though his name was never mentioned but you can see I posted pics with the kennel name. 
I wish he would reconsider. The $ refund would help with the cost of everything. 
But his contract states that we are responsible for any vet costs incurred after we recieve the animal. 
And responsible for transport to and from kennel. 
Contract states a replacement pup will be given if it is found to have an abmormality. So technically this is all on me.
But I agree that there are other things that could right this situation but it's within there rights not to. 
I just don't see a difference in a replacement pup/ refund. Either way they are losing the same amount of money.


----------



## kr16

You can PM me if you want advice. My Mega boy is 2 1/2 now. Keep in mind the xrays and them saying its mild is no way to diagnose Mega. You can take xrays every week and they can look different. 

The mild is what symptoms your dog is showing and how its doing. Yours seems to be OK from your posts. 

Did they xray the lungs?

Did they test for myasthenia gravis?

The yahoo group can be great but its a terrible email format that is hard to follow. 

My breeder gave me a full refund, that is the right thing to do.


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## DTS

The lungs were clean on x ray. 
She did offer to give antibiotics just in case but I didn't take any. 
I can always get them on Monday. 
So I guess my main question is, can this get worse? 
If i do everything he needs, can he still get sick other than aspiration pneumonia and early from something else? 
I'm assuming most of his food is getting to his stomach because he's gaining some weight. About 2-3lbs a week. 
Can his organs shut down from this? 
I feel like I'm in a catch 22. If I keep him, I don't get the replacement pup, because I can only have 2 dog where I live and honestly I couldn't afford 3. So if he dies early, then I just wasted a ton of money and have nothing to show for it except a sad loss. 
If I put him down, I can get a replacement, will have to go through the whole puppy thing again, spend more money on vets, and dog sitting. 
Can he get way worse than he is now?


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## JakodaCD OA

I hope the breeder reconsiders since this puppy is only 12 weeks old and it isn't something he 'contracted' overnite. The refund would certainly help you with those vet bills. 

I hope you can get more definitive answers to alot of your questions.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am not sure why your vet offered antibiotics? Is there an infection somewhere?

Is it megaesophagus or a normal variation? - DVM

I would want a board certified radiologist to take a look at what you have. I prefer going to specialists to get detailed information on a specialty problem. My vets like to refer - heart problem, see a cardiologist who sees this all the time. So I would be looking around and seeing where you could get the answers to those questions locally and in person with a specialist who knows the disorder, in addition to people who have had experience here. 

Canine Megaesophagus, Aspiration Pneumonia & Myasthenia Gravis - Resources 

Small Animal Hospital » College of Veterinary Medicine » University of Florida

I just want to reiterate that he does not need to be put down for a chronic health condition (which seems to have very mild impacts on him).


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## DTS

Yes she did get antibiotics as a precaution however there was nothing in the lungs. She is going to give us a referral to a radiologist with the images.

I wish they would reconsider the refund. It would help with the vets bills I already paid plus help with getting a bailey chair among other things


----------



## DTS

Instead of a bailey chair can I use like a baby jumper with a tray? 
I'm running a but low on funds and don't have the tools to make a bailey chair


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## MaggieRoseLee

For pups healthy and thriving at 12 weeks old, they only do BETTER as they age, not worse. So every week going by with him still normal and healthy means it's great news and proves he's only mildly afflicted.

If there are no pockets in his esophagus and he's not regurgitating every meal I would hold off on trying to make something like a Bailey chair. Think you won't need it. I think when my pups were really small I'd just sit on the ground holding their food bowl raised, but pup was always standing on 4 feet. Later the raised food bowls worked just fine and I always kept the water in the raised bowls too.

I personally wouldn't put him on any meds at this point. NOTHING! But because you know he's got the condition you can be more aware if he has a bad few days that things MAY happen and you MAY then need to put him on meds at that time. SAVE THE $$$ now and you may not have to spend it at all in the future.

Neither of my dogs ever got aspiration pneumonia or needed acid reducers. I think key was the management of the raised food/water the first year (later frankly they had no problem with food/water on the ground though I always have their food/water in raised feeders). As well as keeping them quiet after they ate so the food had time to get into their stomach. Once the food is in the stomach our dogs are 100% like any other dog!!! NORMAL!

Is there a chance you can figure out how to post the xrays here? Love to see them  .

I would also gently press your breeder for the $$$ back for the puppy to help with the vet bills. Be fair in my books.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> Yes she did get antibiotics as a precaution however there was nothing in the lungs. She is going to give us a referral to a radiologist with the images.
> 
> I wish they would reconsider the refund. It would help with the vets bills I already paid plus help with getting a bailey chair among other things


First thing which you are probably already doing, read, read and read more. Do not trust everything being said to you by the doom and gloom and its not a big deal people. Your vulnerable like we all were. You may need to experiment with what works since each dog is different. 

If you join that Yahoo group which you should. You can ask someone if they know of a vet near you that specializes in Mega. Be careful in that site also, lots of people who think they are vets and are know it alls. You will get the new middle aged internet capitalization thing on the site. Like you MUST and HAVE to. Capital words are not fact. So read up so you can make the proper call on things. 

Create a new email address before you join. Use that only for the group, you can get 100 emails a day. 90 of them for something that doesn't need attention.

Not to harp on your vet, but antibiotics as a precaution, wow? Not already having a radiologist to send the films to on the spot like most do is kind of strange. 

One thing which all of us can tell you. You will never have a closer bond to a dog in life than a special needs one. Its pretty amazing. 

Your breeder is an ass, sorry for not giving a refund since you will dump a few grand in the beginning with tests to try and determine what may have caused it.

I would do a bailey chair, its not a big deal. Better safe than sorry and it can get worse if its ignored and the esophagus stretches. Water can be your dogs biggest enemy since its light and doesn't go down sometimes.

In two years my boy is not any worse than he was when I got him. I probably do not need the chair I do not want to see what happens if I do not.

Bethanechol has been known to help. People recommend Reglan which for the life of me I do not get. It designed to do the opposite of Mega and could be a disaster. Acid reducers are recommended as well. 

*Did they test for myasthenia gravis?* That is an important thing to have checked. Also the thyroid.

Suggestions for your veterinarian:
a) do not assume gloom and doom. W/ dedication of owner
and dvm, many of these pets can live relatively normal lives.
b) test for Addison's, Myasthenia Gravis, hypothyroidism and
lead toxicity (if lead exposure). Perform a thyroid panel, not just
a T4, as sick euthyroid may erroneously suggest hypothyroidism.
c) 3 view x-rays of chest to r/o pneumonia - if present treat


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## DTS

[/URL][/IMG]








[/URL][/IMG]


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## kr16

That is perfect for now. How long are you keeping the pup in that after feeding? It might take a few days to get the pup to chill out in the chair


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## DTS

Were starting slow. This was his first time so he sat in it after his meal all of... 7 mins. Were aiming for 15. 
Were trying to hold his attention in it. 
Were gonna have to figure something out so the pet sitter can do this too and keep him in there for atleast 10 mins.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> Were starting slow. This was his first time so he sat in it after his meal all of... 7 mins. Were aiming for 15.
> Were trying to hold his attention in it.
> Were gonna have to figure something out so the pet sitter can do this too and keep him in there for atleast 10 mins.



That is great, good job. Now get a vet who is on board with this.


I may be heading to the U of F vet hospital real soon to get my boy looked over. I am calling tomorrow to get an appointment. I have a feeling they will have reasonable prices. I have petplan so it will get paid either way.


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## DTS

We might check them out. I will speak to the vet tomorrow but she seemed optimistic yesterday and didn't gve us any negative comments or info. 
She graduated from UF so she recommended them.. 
I wonder if we can get a student discount? My fiancé attends UF


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## llombardo

The only thing I can add is that I'm glad you are keeping him and he is adorable.


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## arycrest

DTS said:


> He's 12 weeks.
> I mean I don't want to put his kennel on blast and get sued somehow for libel even though his name was never mentioned but you can see I posted pics with the kennel name.
> I wish he would reconsider. The $ refund would help with the cost of everything.
> But his contract states that we are responsible for any vet costs incurred after we recieve the animal.
> And responsible for transport to and from kennel.
> *Contract states a replacement pup will be given if it is found to have an abmormality. So technically this is all on me.*
> But I agree that there are other things that could right this situation but it's within there rights not to.
> I just don't see a difference in a replacement pup/ refund. Either way they are losing the same amount of money.


 :hugs: I'm so sorry this has happened to you, it just breaks my heart to think of it.

Where in your contract does it say that you must put your puppy down to get the replacement pup? If it's not in the contract I'd go after him for the replacement and keeping your pup. Then I'd sell the replacement pup to a good home to help recoup my expenditures.

If I had another dog with mega-E (Yukon had acquired mega-E as a senior), I'd invest in a Bailey chair ... don't know how much they cost to buy or make, but they seem like they're a good idea when living with a dog which has Mega-E. 
Megaesophagus & The Bailey Chair | Pet Project


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## DTS

It doesn't say I have to put him down in order to get a replacement pup, but I wouldn't know what to do with it. I can only have 2 dogs where I live and I have no idea who I would sell the dog to. Not a lot of people will pay a ton for a dog around here that I know of. 
Plus it would is a bit unethical. And I don't know if I could do it. 
I'd have to take time off work to pick him up, etc.


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## DTS

Here are the x rays:

Pre barium: 
http://s1008.photobucket.com/user/confederate_chick22/media/image_zpsc8ecaf51.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af206/confederate_chick22/image_zpsc8ecaf51
.jpg[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]

2 minutes post barium:







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]

5 minutes post barium:







[/URL][/IMG]







[/URL][/IMG]


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## JakodaCD OA

I know nothing But wanted to ask, I believe the 'white' is the barium correct? In the second and last picture, is that barium going into the lungs? Or where is it going?


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## DTS

It is the barium, and it's going in the stomach. I believe the shadow mid chest is the heart but I could be wrong


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## JakodaCD OA

gotcha, so his lungs look nice and clear thats a positive!


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## DTS

Well, spoke to the breeder again an he doesn't feel a refund is in order because I still have the dog. And if refunded, I now how a refund and a dog. 
Breeder also said that he doesn't need to do research because he's been showing an breeding since the 60s an has seen it a lot, even though he claims his lines have never produced this defect. 
Guess I'm just at a loss. 
Even if i decided to euthanize, I'd e stuck with that bill and the x Ray bill and having to take off work to pick up the new pup along with having to pay a pet sitter way longer than I should have. 
Just doesn't seem fair when I didn't cause the defect. 
Oh well, guess that's what you get when you deal with people. No one can be trusted, even if they are reputable.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> Well, spoke to the breeder again an he doesn't feel a refund is in order because I still have the dog. And if refunded, I now how a refund and a dog.
> Breeder also said that he doesn't need to do research because he's been showing an breeding since the 60s an has seen it a lot, even though he claims his lines have never produced this defect.
> Guess I'm just at a loss.
> Even if i decided to euthanize, I'd e stuck with that bill and the x Ray bill and having to take off work to pick up the new pup along with having to pay a pet sitter way longer than I should have.
> Just doesn't seem fair when I didn't cause the defect.
> Oh well, guess that's what you get when you deal with people. No one can be trusted, even if they are reputable.


Will he let you keep the dog and give you another?


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## DTS

I don't believe so because technically I still have the dog and hen I would have a replacement pup and my original pup. Even if he did I can't keep more than 2 dogs in my complex and I couldn't afford to keep 3. 
Plus if I got a replacement I would have to take time off work to pick it up, vet expenses with shots, paying the pet sitter longer than I expected. It's just more of a financial burden to take te replacement pup.


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## Loneforce

DTS said:


> Well, spoke to the breeder again an he doesn't feel a refund is in order because I still have the dog. And if refunded, I now how a refund and a dog.
> Breeder also said that he doesn't need to do research because he's been showing an breeding since the 60s an has seen it a lot, even though he claims his lines have never produced this defect.
> Guess I'm just at a loss.
> Even if i decided to euthanize, I'd e stuck with that bill and the x Ray bill and having to take off work to pick up the new pup along with having to pay a pet sitter way longer than I should have.
> Just doesn't seem fair when I didn't cause the defect.
> Oh well, guess that's what you get when you deal with people. No one can be trusted, even if they are reputable.


My breeder was just like this with Jonas. At 5 mos old I found out Jonas has Congenital ventricular tachycardia. The poor dog has been through **** because of it, and I have a huge stack of vet bills and medicine bills. I told the breeder about it and kept in contact with them. It did not matter though..It was like they did not believe me and went ahead and used the same parents to breed this year, and pups will be available in January. The breeder never even offered to help pay the bills or anything. I chalk it up to another lesson learned. I say If you love this pup and it sounds like you do. I would just worry about taking care of your pup and move on. It sounds like you are a great pet parent and I think you were meant to have this pup, because a lot of other people would probably gave up and euthanized. Bless you for doing what you are doing!!


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## kr16

DTS said:


> I don't believe so because technically I still have the dog and hen I would have a replacement pup and my original pup. Even if he did I can't keep more than 2 dogs in my complex and I couldn't afford to keep 3.
> Plus if I got a replacement I would have to take time off work to pick it up, vet expenses with shots, paying the pet sitter longer than I expected. It's just more of a financial burden to take te replacement pup.



I would take a new pup if they would give it and make some friend or relative real happy if that is a possibility


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## DTS

Just got confirmation. Dog either needs to be euthanized or sent back to be euthanized and a replacement will be sent. 
Breeder states that yes, the dog can be a normal dog but the risk of bacteria build up in the throat is too great and will cause vet bills in the future which isn't fair to the dog or me. 
He doesn't give refunds because no one else does.


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## kr16

DTS said:


> Just got confirmation. Dog either needs to be euthanized or sent back to be euthanized and a replacement will be sent.
> Breeder states that yes, the dog can be a normal dog but the risk of bacteria build up in the throat is too great and will cause vet bills in the future which isn't fair to the dog or me.
> He doesn't give refunds because no one else does.


wow, bacteria build up, they have no clue on what they are talking about. Report them to the better business bureau so if anyone ever considers them they have it on record. It wont get you your money back I would just do it to get the word out.


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## DTS

Well their contract states a replacement pup will be given if the pup has an abnormality. So he's not doing anything wrong. He's just knows he can do this because he has a contract stating he can.


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## Sunflowers

DTS said:


> Well their contract states a replacement pup will be given if the pup has an abnormality. So he's not doing anything wrong. He's just knows he can do this because he has a contract stating he can.


Yes. Because a contract is something you write up just in case things go bad, and when you sign it, you agree to the terms in that contract. 

What do you want this breeder to do? I do not understand. When you sell living beings, perfection is not guaranteed. Things do happen. Makes no sense that if you get a sick dog, you should be given the price of your pup back. 

The breeder is willing to give you another puppy. 

The way I see it, you have two choices: return the pup, or keep him with his condition.


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## DTS

Well if the pup is healthy I wouldn't have all the medical bills. 
What I want? 
My x ray bill paid and money for a bailey chair. That's all I asked for. 
He will only replace the pup if it is euthanized. 
I'm glad you have the conscious to euthanize a pup that can be managed but I don't. 
That's all I asked for. 
If I euthanize the dog that's an easy $100. Apply that to the $455 x ray bill, $100 in office visits to diagnose the dog because no one is going to take your diagnosis seriously without some proof. I'm at $755. Not including the wasted pet sitting money $125 a week for 5 weeks. All wasted because of a defect. 
A replacement isn't going to get the money I wasted on a defect now is it? 
So again, all I want is reimbursement for the x rays an a bailey chair. I think that's fair. He doesn't. 
I'm not going to euthanize for what ifs. My dog could bloat. That's expensive and a what if. So is hemangiosarcoma and other cancers. 
I'm not going to euthanize because as GSDs my dogs are predisposed to these conditions and they could happen. Sorry


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## Sunflowers

Wow. Really? You think that's fair?
What I have spent on my dog's skin and digestive and prostate issues have amounted to several thousand. As a matter of fact, I don't even want to add up the bills, because I don't really want to know. He has chronic issues. I am managing them. It is costing a fortune, but I am not expecting the breeder to cover any it.

When you buy a dog, it is a given that if something happens and you still want to keep the dog, you will pay vet bills. If the dog has a huge abnormality, then you get a replacement. If the abnormality is manageable, you pay to manage it. 

The breeder does not owe you money for diagnostic testing. If you did not want to pay vet bills, you could have purchased insurance before you even brought your pup home. 
Getting very frustrated with the trashing of a good breeder because of unreasonable demands.


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## DTS

Ok then here's my question, we all want to support responsible breeders and when people get problem dogs from bybs we say, we told you so, should have went to a reputable breeder.
When you get a dog from a reputable breeder and it has issues, we say, well health is a crap shoot. 
I guess I expected more from a reputable breeder. My mistake. 
Next time, I won't spend the extra money for a reputable breeder, I'll just go to a byb, because health is a crap shoot. 
You people are all unbelievable. 
You can't play it both ways. 
Your right.. Why pay all the extra expenses. 
If I euthanize now, I'll save money in the long run. I wouldn't wAnt to end up like you sunflowers, spending all that money on issues. 
I did pay for quality after all. 
You have opened my eyes. He shouldn't pay for anything. I'm going to go ahead and out him down so I can get the replacement pup. No sense in paying long term for something that is broken. I've out enough money into jasmine, no need for another money pit. 
I appriciate your feedback. It has helped. 
No need to continue the thread. I've made my decision.


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## Sunflowers

You are forgetting temperament, which is the most important thing of all. And a BYB cannot guarantee that one. Not would you be guaranteed a replacement pup. 

It is very sad that he has this, and yes, you have every right to be disappointed. But you need to think this with an eye toward the future and what you can afford. 

Only you can decide what to do, and I would suggest you do not make important decisions when you are emotional and angry. 

Take some time, weigh your options, but remember that at the end of the day, these are business transactions, and the dogs are commodities, even though they are wonderful beings to which we get so attached.


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## onyx'girl

I would be pissed too. As well as extremely disappointed. I find it sad that the breeder won't just give you a refund, let you keep the pup and their integrity. Dogs aren't commodities for all breeders, some do have compassion and take responsibility for what they are breeding.


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## DTS

This is an emotional decision. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be a good dog owner. Other people have posted they recieved refunds, why can't I? 
No one can out right guarantee temperament in every dog. There is always going I be that one who slips through the cracks.


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## Sunflowers

onyx'girl said:


> I would be pissed too. As well as extremely disappointed. I find it sad that the breeder won't just give you a refund, let you keep the pup and their integrity. Dogs aren't commodities for all breeders, some do have compassion and take responsibility for what they are breeding.


This is just so confusing to me. 
Why is the breeder's integrity not "kept" if a replacement is offered?

If DTS is angry over under $1,000 for x-rays and a chair, then what about the many thousands in the future if he keeps a pup with chronic megaesophagus?


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## Sunflowers

DTS said:


> This is an emotional decision. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be a good dog owner. Other people have posted they recieved refunds, why can't I?
> No one can out right guarantee temperament in every dog. There is always going I be that one who slips through the cracks.



You are saying this particular breeder has offered refunds before and is just refusing you one?

And temperament was guaranteed in my case. Huge abnormalities would have meant a replacement.

If you decide with your emotions you will have that money pit you don't want.


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## gsdsar

I am very sorry for what you and your pup are going through. 

It is unfortunate that they way the contract was written means you lose either way. It's actually the first thing I look at in a contract. "Do I have to give back my dog to excersise any part of the contract" if the answer is yes, I move on. To me it is an underhanded way of getting out of responsibility when things go wrong. Most people fall in love with their puppies and won't want to give them back. So, because if how the contract is written, the breeder legally can refuse responsibility. It's sucky. 

You have a tough road ahead no matter what you decide. I don't envy you. But you need to think about what is best for you and your family. No one here can know what is the right choice for you. 

Good Luck. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DTS

Other people posted they recieved refunds from their breeders, not this particular one. They just said they had megaE dogs and their breeders gave them refunds. 
Like I said, I don't want money pit. I want what I paid for. But I also want to do the right thing.
And under a $1000 might not be much for you, but it is to me. "All in getting a dog". 
Good thing I'm not longer in college, this would have ruined me financially.


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## Rainer

I honestly don't think the OP is unreasonable for wanting diagnostic medical bills paid. If I buy a puppy from a reputable breeder, I would assume that breeder would stand behind his/her pups. He is offering to replace the puppy, only if it is euthanized, but refuses to pay some medical expenses instead (which honestly would probably be cheaper than the "cost" of replacing the pup). 

I know a breeder that had a litter of puppies and noticed right away that one of the pups was not keeping down food. She had him diagnosed with MegaE at her own expense and elected to keep the pup, rather than sell him, since he was thriving - with modifications. He has grown into a handsome GSD and doing really well with her ... he even enjoys protection work. Point being...I would think this is something the breeder should have noticed before selling the puppy...

ETA: I'm really sorry you are in this position


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## onyx'girl

It takes away their integrity because they are not standing behind what they are breeding. They want this puppy dead, so there is no evidence of it in their program.

I agree with Rainer, most breeders notice it during the weaning stage. Wonder how this slipped past them?

How do they know the pup can't live a normal life with proper management? They should be happy that someone is willing to give it a great home. Mega E is not a death sentence, and the cost of care doesn't have to be more than any other dog....
How would you feel if you were in DTS's place?


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## Sunflowers

DTS said:


> And under a $1000 might not be much for you, but it is to me.


I mentioned this amount because if having to pay this is resented now, then the future holds more resentment and anger and "I should have gottens."

This is an unfortunate situation, but because of past experience I tend to make important decisions without the letting emotions infringe on my judgment. 
I will bow out of this discussion now. 
Good luck with your decision, DTS.


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## gagsd

I see where the OP is coming from. Yes, many breeders notice something off by 7 weeks old and would not have sold the puppy. 
If a small breeder, they may not have cash on hand for monetary refunds. But to have an owner willing to work with megaE, and yet still requiring euthanasia before taking any action, would upset me as well.


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## TrickyShepherd

I'm sorry to hear the news on your new pup ... thankfully, it looks like it's not the worst case, so hopefully management won't be too difficult.

As of contracts, they are very specific for a reason, the 'unsaid' is left to the breeder's discretion. It sounds like what you signed is cut and dry... replacement pup or nothing. I know many breeders who would at least refund some or all of the pups price, buyer keeps them and manages them throughout the dog's life. IMO, that's fair.... dog has serious problems, puppy buyer paid regular price for healthy pup, this is mostly a genetic disorder and doesn't show up over night.... seems reasonable to offer something back on the dog. However, there are many others who won't refund a thing in cash value. Replacement pup, or some will offer a discount on the next pup if a replacement isn't taken. I've never heard of mandatory PTS for the 'defective' pup.... to me, that's not what I'd like to hear from a breeder. But, again... my opinion and feelings on that. Maybe it's the unspoken norm. Unfortunately, since you signed a contract that doesn't state otherwise, that's all they are legally bound to. So, they haven't done anything wrong.... maybe just not the preferred or to some, not morally correct. Anyway, this is why it's important to discuss everything in the contract and what's not included. When reading through a contract, I try to ask every question I can think of and also the questions I have of things that are not said on there. Replacement pup.... How will that work if it was to happen? Defects.... what's on me? Etc... you get the idea... and I know, hindsight 20/20. Now that it's after the signature, you'll just have to go through with what you signed and learn from the experience.

I honestly couldn't PTS a dog that's manageable either. Because of this, I have 2 chronically ill dogs that have attached a drain pipe to my bank account. So I understand how much this really sucks. I don't know much about Mega-E, only know some dogs with it. They're all older (5years +) and doing great. Not sure of their severity, but to a stranger's eye, they look like perfectly normal happy GSDs. A positive thing to get some relief from.... it sounds like many on here have wonderful suggestions, at least this can give you a good idea of what will need to be done to manage him properly.... sounds like he has a good chance of a fairly normal long life.

Right now, I think you just need to weigh your options and make the choice that's best for the dog, you, and your household's future. 

Hope the pup is doing ok now that he has his raised 'chair'. (He's adorable, btw!)


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## TrickyShepherd

gagsd said:


> I see where the OP is coming from. Yes, many breeders notice something off by 7 weeks old and would not have sold the puppy.
> If a small breeder, they may not have cash on hand for monetary refunds. But to have an owner willing to work with megaE, and yet still requiring euthanasia before taking any action, would upset me as well.


That's exactly what gets to me a bit here....

I understand both sides... breeders have to legally look after their side too, by contracts. What it states is what it is. But, to sell a pup and find out it has something like this (if they honestly saw nothing before the sale was made).... AND to have an owner that not only took the responsibility to find a diagnoses but is willing to manage the dog and give it a happy life.... I wouldn't be too thrilled to be working with a breeder that would just throw Euth. out there that quickly in this case. That's not something I personally would be ok with. Defects happen even in the best of lines/pedigrees/breeders, that's life..... but take moral responsibility (not just the legal side) and have some compassion. I wouldn't get the replacement pup either if I knew the current would be PTS (by me) without any chances of a good life easily done by being managed. I'm a little shocked with the immediate PTS option. I would be upset too as the owner. Just stinks that it's more of a comparison of morals at this point..... nothing was legally done wrong. They followed their contracts agreements.


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## mycobraracr

I'm with sunflowers. They are making good on their contract in offering a replacement puppy. So yes the situation sucks! Unfortunately I know this situation all too well and it is not easy. In a lot of cases I think we make decisions based on our feelings and not what is best for the dog. The way I see it, is the money refund really going to make a dent in the amount spent for the lifetime management of the dog? Probably not. 

As for it slipping by the breeder. The puppy was holding food down and wasn't showing symptoms other than a little noise as it says in the beginning of this thread and what puppy doesn't get hiccups or burp and what not? 

OP- only you can make the right decision for you, your puppy and your pocket book. I wish you all the best.


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## BowWowMeow

I too agree that the breeder should give a refund and also show some compassion for the puppy that he produced. The requirement to euthanize is unbelievable and irresponsible. 

That said, it does not sound like you need a Bailey chair or that your puppy is necessarily going to accrue thousands in vet bills. Where is that coming from? Lots of people have posted about puppies diagnosed with Mild Mega-E who either grew out of it completely or are doing really well with diet modifications only. 

And you are absolutely right about the no guarantees. Lots of people on here buy dogs from reputable breeders and some of those dogs end up with health and/or temperament problems. You can stack the deck in your favor but that's as far as it goes. 

I wish you the best of luck with your pup. And I hope the breeder stops breeding the two dogs that produced your pup.


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## DTS

Again, yes would I like a refund or payment of such, yes. But as I stated many times before this turned into a war between emotional decisions and my contract, I KNOW what my contract states. 
I've stated many times if you go back and actual read that the contract doesn't state a refund. I GET THAT. The breeder is well within his rights not to give me a refund.
All I'm saying is, it is a loose loose for me either way. 
Bottom line, I can keep the dog, and find out if/when how many medical a bills I will have in a lifetime, or I can PTS, deal with that bill, and get a new dog, take off from work, pay more shot bills, pay my pet sitter more for longer. 
That's all I was stating. 
Again, I understand and have said this in previous posts, he is well within his rights to do what he's doing. 
Do I like it? No, but it's well within my rights not to.
I just didn't think that in order to get a replacement, if have to spend a ton of money getting a diagnosis, to then either spend more
Money to PTS, or spend money to ship back. 
This is the first dog I paid a lot of money for, and again, this was my mistake for thinking that of you pay a lot, you will end up with a healthy dog. Yes, health is a crap shoot, I just didn't realize all the expenses. 
I just initially thought, well if he has issues I'll just ship him back no problem. 
Either way, I have a lot to think about.
I don't want to upset the breeder, and they do not support me raising this dog. 
I never once said they were bad breeders, I haven't said anything negative about them, just the situation at hand. 
But not everyone is ever going to agree wih each other. 
I have my opinion, other people have their opinion which on here seems to be merged with mine in some peoples' minds, and other people have theirs. 
I just have thinking to do.


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## Kat Tastic

I feel the reasonable thing to do would be for the breeder to refund HALF (minimum) of the purchase price since you are choosing to keep the puppy despite its health issue, and he isn't losing future income on a replacement pup either. It's a 50/50 split for him and a little recoup for you.

That said, would this help with MegaE dogs? You can adjust the difficulty so the kibble comes out slowly, slowing down the food intake? 
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003ARUKTG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1386069200&sr=8-1&pi=SY200[/ame]

I know that gravity factors in with this condition, but if the food intake was slow enough would it work? I got one for my pup as a toy, and he loves it. I use it to 'trick him' into eating more kibble and keep him busy. I just fill the whole thing with puppy food, sometimes add a few treats too. He loves it!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Please don't forget, you do have another option. 

For right now, deciding to keep him, I would start an emergency fund up, or check into Care Credit, etc, just so you have a plan in place. He seems like such a hardy little guy and my hope is that he continues on, with you, like the other more mild cases.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I'll add my opinion I would be very unhappy with the breeder in this situation. 

This is not an adult dog, this is a very young puppy that most likely has had this condition since birth. 

Great that he offers a replacement, but to say the puppy must be euthanized to get that replacement in my opinion is heartless.

I seriously doubt it would break the breeder's bank to refund or even 1/2 refund the purchase amount to help defray vet costs. I do not think that is unreasonable. 

What ever happened to being compassionate , being grateful the puppy has a good home with someone willing to take care of him properly vs viewing a puppy that CAN be managed as disposable? 

I don't care how well known, how great their dogs are, this wouldn't be someone I would ever purchase a dog from, a good heads up to the realities of the almighty buck.


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## DTS

I could ship the puppy back and get a replacement at my expense.. But I'm sure what will happen to him if I do. 
That's the other option. 
I'm just at a moral crossroad here.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well, the third option is also still available - with you at a *very* net loss due to the contract - but the puppy alive and well and provided for for life. But it's there and takes away some of that black and white. 

It seems like there is not going to be a compromise on the reimbursement? I am not sure how you feel - like there might be some flexibility to pursue? If not, that is the point you are going to have to move on from, unfortunately. 

I don't agree with the way it's been handled on that end, and certainly a lesson for others on what a contract really means (or does not). I hate lessons that are learned at the expense of the original person and animal though.


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## Sunflowers

DTS said:


> I could ship the puppy back and get a replacement at my expense.. But I'm sure what will happen to him if I do.
> That's the other option.
> I'm just at a moral crossroad here.



And that is awful. 

I have been thinking about this a lot, wondering what I would do. Here's what I would do: I would start an online fundraiser to recoup my costs and pay for some vet bills, and if I didn't feel capable of keeping a special needs dog, I would rehome him in a place where they had experience with megaesophagus.

Then, I would purchase a pup from a different breeder. Just because although there is a contract, a business can always do something for an unhappy customer in the name of goodwill. And in this case, goodwill went down the toilet.

That is what I would do. Because it would be a shame to put down a dog with a good temperament, especially if his condition was mild.


----------



## Rainer

Sunflowers said:


> And that is awful.
> 
> I have been thinking about this a lot, wondering what I would do. Here's what I would do: I would start an online fundraiser to recoup my costs and pay for some vet bills, and if I didn't feel capable of keeping a special needs dog, I would rehome him in a place where they had experience with megaesophagus.
> 
> Then, I would purchase a pup from a different breeder. *Just because although there is a contract, a business can always do something for an unhappy customer in the name of goodwill.* And in this case, goodwill went down the toilet.
> 
> That is what I would do. Because it would be a shame to put down a dog with a good temperament, especially if his condition was mild.


:thumbup: I think this would be a great option/idea. It may be a little more expensive buying a pup from another breeder in the short term, but it may turn out to be a lot less expensive in the long term depending on how much care/management the pup may need in the future.

In regards to the bolded: I don't care how well-known or reputable a breeder may be considered, if they are unwilling to stand by a pup that seems to be very manageable, then that is a breeder I am unwilling to give my $$ to in the future. Just my two cents on that point


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Rainer said:


> :thumbup: I think this would be a great option/idea. It may be a little more expensive buying a pup from another breeder in the short term, but it may turn out to be a lot less expensive in the long term depending on how much care/management the pup may need in the future.
> 
> In regards to the bolded: *I don't care how well-known or reputable a breeder may be considered, if they are unwilling to stand by a pup that seems to be very manageable, then that is a breeder I am unwilling to give my $$ to in the future. Just my two cents on that point*


Well said, particularly because they are going to kill a puppy that will need little or no management as it grows and will most probably either grow out of or almost out of it by the time he's a year old.


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## kr16

Sunflowers said:


> This is just so confusing to me.
> Why is the breeder's integrity not "kept" if a replacement is offered?
> 
> If DTS is angry over under $1,000 for x-rays and a chair, then what about the many thousands in the future if he keeps a pup with chronic megaesophagus?


IMO as a Mega E owner, Killing a dog that could have a long life is making the breeder an ahole. If the breeder had any integrity and compassion they would offer a free pup or a refund and not care if they keep it. All the breeder needs to see is the xrays and the vet report to rule out a scam. The contract like most is written to help the breeder.


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## DTS

He wants the dog euthanized because the unknown of suffering is to great. From what I was told from the breeder the dog could get bacteria build up in the throat. The dog could live a life of pain. It is better to euthanize while young. 
I see where they are coming from. But, I'm torn with he could live a normal life, or he could not. To them, it isn't a risk worth taking. 
I was told that he has seen this disease a lot, but this is the first in his lines. 
I'm very glad it isn't caused my an abnormality that is surgical or I'd be in a worse place than I am now.
I'm very torn about this situation. I don't blame them for their decision. It's well within heir rights to decide that. 
Now I have to make a decision on my end.


----------



## DTS

Also wanted to add, x rays were sent and seen. 
Just spoke to Breeder and they will pay for shipping back to them and PTS and will send a replacement pup. 
They are trying to help. It's just a moral decision on my part that needs to be made.


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## Shade

I'm glad to hear that, it's not a easy decision either way and I wish you strength and peace as you decide.


----------



## kr16

DTS said:


> He wants the dog euthanized because the unknown of suffering is to great. From what I was told from the breeder the dog could get bacteria build up in the throat. The dog could live a life of pain. It is better to euthanize while young.
> I see where they are coming from. But, I'm torn with he could live a normal life, or he could not. To them, it isn't a risk worth taking.
> I was told that he has seen this disease a lot, but this is the first in his lines.
> I'm very glad it isn't caused my an abnormality that is surgical or I'd be in a worse place than I am now.
> I'm very torn about this situation. I don't blame them for their decision. It's well within heir rights to decide that.
> Now I have to make a decision on my end.


There is no bacteria build up in the throat. Obvious these people have no clue on this disorder. That is why you do not feed raw to a mega dog if that is even true. They also must have known something was up with the pup. 

The dog deserves a chance to live. If they cared, that is how they would see it. Ask someone on the Yahoo group your posting on already. That group will get real fired up. 


What kind of proof do they need on killing it? I would get a dummy receipt. There are plenty of people that would adopt that pup and give it a chance it deserves. 

Severe Mega dogs do not make it past weaning most of the time.


----------



## barnyard

I'm sorry you're having to go through all this. I have seen some mega e dogs do well, and others get pneumonia and some don't survive it. However, there are people and rescues that have dealt with this, and are willing to handle it. I don't blame you for being upset that you are out money and all you wanted was a healthy pup. And honestly, having dealt with contract issues before, the breeder could make an exception here. Two reasons he may not want to are 1) it would reflect on his breeding program/reputation if he lets the pup live and 2) he just may be ignorant on mega e. The second reason is more manageable, and he may just need to talk to someone who has dealt with mega e pups before to see that many can live decent lives. 
I would not want another dog from this breeder. And rather than seeing a nice pup put to sleep, I would rather give the dog to someone else who is prepared for the issue, and get a dog from another breeder, or go with a bit older dog from a rescue.
I know someone with a rescue group who has successfully dealt with mega e and has helped others deal with the condition if you need someone to talk to.
Again, I'm sorry you have to deal with this.


----------



## huntergreen

DTS, in truth, i don't know what i would do. if you are unable to cope with this mega e, and many wouldn't, and another owner or rescue thinks they can offer a a good life for the pup, that would be a great option. i would ask the breeder if he would allow this and still replace the pup. i know you are between a rock and a hardplace, but there is the price you paid for the pup to consider, i wouldn't be able to just walk away from that. life with a healthy well trained gsd is a joy. life with a sick animal, not so much. i would support any decision you make based on your needs.


----------



## DTS

I don't have the extra money to spend on a different breeder. I saved up for months to get this dog. The way I take care of y animals, I could never afford 3 dogs. 
I want to do what's right by this pup, but I also don't want to financially bind myself. 
I have other things I have to pay for, I'm getting married next October. And I need I save up to by an SUV so all the dogs can fit in one vehicle and my car is on its way out. I also have school loans I have to pay back.


----------



## selzer

I slept on this. 

I wrote a long post, and backed out of it last night. 

I think your breeder sucks to have told you that they will euthanize this dog if you send him back. That pretty much guarantys that you aren't going to do that. Most people cannot look at a live puppy and send it back, knowing it will be euthanized, even if that _is _the best outcome for the puppy, which none of us can say is the case with this puppy. Breeders have to make hard decisions on occasion. It is part of our job. Sometimes we have to put a young dog down, and it rips us to pieces when we do that. But it is not something the puppy buyer needs to feel guilt over. 

I understand the reluctance to pay for costs and have you keep the puppy. I am not saying you are a black mailer. But some puppy buyers feel that a breeder should cover the costs of a dog they produced, forever, at least if it started out with issues. So euthanizing the puppy and sending a new puppy means the breeder is out the purchase price of one puppy. And that is the end of it. Normally, the new puppy IS NOT covered by any warranty. So if the new puppy has congenital issues, you are on your own -- usually. 

If you continue to own this dog, and they refund, some or all of the purchase price of the puppy, you are not really going to be happy with them. People will ask about your puppy from this breeder, and you will tell them it has MegE, and they will steer clear. And if at 10 months this puppy starts limping, and is then diagnosed with some other crippling disease that either needs an expensive surgery, or the dog needs to be put down, are you going to go back to the breeder again and discuss the new issue with them, and expect them to step up to the plate again? 

And, while it may not break the bank of the breeder to refund cash, it may not be as easy as refunding a puppy. Cash is demanded right now. A replacement puppy comes when it is whelped and raised. In those eight weeks, the breeder then just figures on 7 puppies instead of the 8 that were born, and it is not so much of a financial hardship, at least they have 2 months after a litter is born to figure our how to manage things. In short the compensation can be immediate if a puppy is available and not sold yet, or it can be 4-6 months or even a year away. 

That puppy most likely will not be under any warranty. And the breeder will have washed his hands so to speak of the transaction. And if this puppy is everything you hoped for, you will probably be happy with the breeder, and this hiccup in the overall course of events will be smoothed over time and a lovely puppy that is before you. In a couple of years, you may feel that they totally backed their puppy and will be giving them a good review. And there is no chance of this, if the puppy before you has a defect that you have to do stuff for, and have to be worried about the risk of pneumonia, etc. 

I have a possibility that the breeder may be ok with. Get MRLs contact information, and explain to the breeder that you do not have the experience or the funds to possibly cover the needs of the puppy with issues but you have someone who will take the puppy, with that exact experience. Then tell them, that you would like for them to select a replacement puppy for you, and either send the replacement puppy to you when it becomes available, or sell the replacement puppy and forward 
the purchase price at that time. Then the responsibility for this current pup will not be yours, you will not be asking for more help down the line for this same puppy, and if the puppy is suffering, the new owners have the experience, and they are taking the puppy on, and will euthanize if it warrants it. You are not having your puppy and your purchase price both. And you feel that with their reputation for dogs, they would want to make this right, as it is definitely a congenital/heritable issue, and you do not see in the warranty anywhere that requires the dog to be returned/euthanized if it is not a problem that warrants euthanasia. 

As much as the common thought through your posts of concern for this puppy, is also the concern for the cost. I am seriously concerned with your keeping a puppy that has a higher than average likelihood of requiring vet care. I don't want the puppy to die, especially if it has a chance at a normal life. But I think the offer of people who are experienced with the condition makes a lot of sense.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

This thread seems to be running in a circle now. I could very well be wrong, and don't take this the wrong way (not said to poke fun or to be mean), but it sounds like it just wasn't the right time for the next dog. Mega E is not the only thing a pup (from anywhere with any pedigree) can have and cost serious money ($1000 & +). I understand the upsetment with having a pup with a genetic issue, but, there's a lot more than just genetic issues that could have costs the same, if not more. It's part of getting a pup.

It doesn't sound like you're confident in the ability to keep the dog and pay for the expenses at this point. If not, I think maybe it's best to start looking around for a rescue that has Mega E experience to take him in. Then maybe once you're finances are straight and life is back to normal, try again with another breeder that you have confidence in. Whether or not you like this breeder still, if the confidence isn't there and the trust isn't strong anymore... it's most likely never going to be a good match for someone you'll be in contact with for the life of the dog.

I don't think a pup with a mild form of Mega E should be PTS so young. If he's not in any pain or suffering, then he very well may just grow out of it. Personally, I'd take the hit, take it as a very difficult and expensive lesson learned, and find a home experienced with Mega E and financially able to pay for all his needs. 

Either you do that, or PTS and get a replacement. That's something you'll have to decide. From your replies, I don't see any other option you're willing/able to do.

Best of luck with your decision. I hope the little one is doing ok today.


----------



## TrickyShepherd

selzer said:


> I have a possibility that the breeder may be ok with. Get MRLs contact information, and explain to the breeder that you do not have the experience or the funds to possibly cover the needs of the puppy with issues but you have someone who will take the puppy, with that exact experience. Then tell them, that you would like for them to select a replacement puppy for you, and either send the replacement puppy to you when it becomes available, or sell the replacement puppy and forward
> the purchase price at that time. Then the responsibility for this current pup will not be yours, you will not be asking for more help down the line for this same puppy, and if the puppy is suffering, the new owners have the experience, and they are taking the puppy on, and will euthanize if it warrants it. You are not having your puppy and your purchase price both. And you feel that with their reputation for dogs, they would want to make this right, as it is definitely a congenital/heritable issue, and you do not see in the warranty anywhere that requires the dog to be returned/euthanized if it is not a problem that warrants euthanasia.
> 
> As much as the common thought through your posts of concern for this puppy, is also the concern for the cost. I am seriously concerned with your keeping a puppy that has a higher than average likelihood of requiring vet care. I don't want the puppy to die, especially if it has a chance at a normal life. But I think the offer of people who are experienced with the condition makes a lot of sense.


That's a great suggestion!


----------



## DTS

Here's the cost so far: 
$44 for visit for gurgling noise
$44 for visit# 2 for vomiting all night long
$455 for x rays and barium test. 
$30 for baby walker for make shift bailey chair. 
$50 for magic bullet to blend food.. Our regular blender couldn't handle it.
As far as what I WANTED in a refund: 
$455 for x rays, and the money to purchase a bailey chair when size appropriate. 
Say $200 max.
Total of $655
After I took the responsibility of keeping animal. All costs are on me because it was my decision to keep him. And I am COMPLETELY okay with that. 
MY FEARS:
Having $3-400 a month vet bills.
I can handle that every few months no problem. But not every month. 
Worried I made the wrong decision, and he ends up getting worse despite what we were doing for him.
I he ends up with something else, like displasia or something, I'm not going back to the breeder for $. Because if those conditions arised even without megaE present, I'd be in this position. 
I know I'm not very educated on this, but I'm trying to research as much as I can.


----------



## kr16

DTS said:


> Here's the cost so far:
> $44 for visit for gurgling noise
> $44 for visit# 2 for vomiting all night long
> $455 for x rays and barium test.
> $30 for baby walker for make shift bailey chair.
> $50 for magic bullet to blend food.. Our regular blender couldn't handle it.
> As far as what I WANTED in a refund:
> $455 for x rays, and the money to purchase a bailey chair when size appropriate.
> Say $200 max.
> Total of $655
> After I took the responsibility of keeping animal. All costs are on me because it was my decision to keep him. And I am COMPLETELY okay with that.
> MY FEARS:
> Having $3-400 a month vet bills.
> I can handle that every few months no problem. But not every month.
> Worried I made the wrong decision, and he ends up getting worse despite what we were doing for him.
> I he ends up with something else, like displasia or something, I'm not going back to the breeder for $. Because if those conditions arised even without megaE present, I'd be in this position.
> I know I'm not very educated on this, but I'm trying to research as much as I can.



You can build a bailey chair for less than 50 bucks. I can guide you through that.


----------



## 2S1H

selzer said:


> I slept on this.
> 
> I wrote a long post, and backed out of it last night.
> 
> I think your breeder sucks to have told you that they will euthanize this dog if you send him back. That pretty much guarantys that you aren't going to do that. Most people cannot look at a live puppy and send it back, knowing it will be euthanized, even if that _is _the best outcome for the puppy, which none of us can say is the case with this puppy. Breeders have to make hard decisions on occasion. It is part of our job. Sometimes we have to put a young dog down, and it rips us to pieces when we do that. But it is not something the puppy buyer needs to feel guilt over.
> 
> I understand the reluctance to pay for costs and have you keep the puppy. I am not saying you are a black mailer. But some puppy buyers feel that a breeder should cover the costs of a dog they produced, forever, at least if it started out with issues. So euthanizing the puppy and sending a new puppy means the breeder is out the purchase price of one puppy. And that is the end of it. Normally, the new puppy IS NOT covered by any warranty. So if the new puppy has congenital issues, you are on your own -- usually.
> 
> If you continue to own this dog, and they refund, some or all of the purchase price of the puppy, you are not really going to be happy with them. People will ask about your puppy from this breeder, and you will tell them it has MegE, and they will steer clear. And if at 10 months this puppy starts limping, and is then diagnosed with some other crippling disease that either needs an expensive surgery, or the dog needs to be put down, are you going to go back to the breeder again and discuss the new issue with them, and expect them to step up to the plate again?
> 
> And, while it may not break the bank of the breeder to refund cash, it may not be as easy as refunding a puppy. Cash is demanded right now. A replacement puppy comes when it is whelped and raised. In those eight weeks, the breeder then just figures on 7 puppies instead of the 8 that were born, and it is not so much of a financial hardship, at least they have 2 months after a litter is born to figure our how to manage things. In short the compensation can be immediate if a puppy is available and not sold yet, or it can be 4-6 months or even a year away.
> 
> That puppy most likely will not be under any warranty. And the breeder will have washed his hands so to speak of the transaction. And if this puppy is everything you hoped for, you will probably be happy with the breeder, and this hiccup in the overall course of events will be smoothed over time and a lovely puppy that is before you. In a couple of years, you may feel that they totally backed their puppy and will be giving them a good review. And there is no chance of this, if the puppy before you has a defect that you have to do stuff for, and have to be worried about the risk of pneumonia, etc.
> 
> I have a possibility that the breeder may be ok with. Get MRLs contact information, and explain to the breeder that you do not have the experience or the funds to possibly cover the needs of the puppy with issues but you have someone who will take the puppy, with that exact experience. Then tell them, that you would like for them to select a replacement puppy for you, and either send the replacement puppy to you when it becomes available, or sell the replacement puppy and forward
> the purchase price at that time. Then the responsibility for this current pup will not be yours, you will not be asking for more help down the line for this same puppy, and if the puppy is suffering, the new owners have the experience, and they are taking the puppy on, and will euthanize if it warrants it. You are not having your puppy and your purchase price both. And you feel that with their reputation for dogs, they would want to make this right, as it is definitely a congenital/heritable issue, and you do not see in the warranty anywhere that requires the dog to be returned/euthanized if it is not a problem that warrants euthanasia.
> 
> As much as the common thought through your posts of concern for this puppy, is also the concern for the cost. I am seriously concerned with your keeping a puppy that has a higher than average likelihood of requiring vet care. I don't want the puppy to die, especially if it has a chance at a normal life. But I think the offer of people who are experienced with the condition makes a lot of sense.


To Selzer: I think this is a wonderfully written post employing logic and removing the high emotions this subject is creating (& always creates). Glad you slept on your reply!

To DTS: It is a tough decision to make, not one to make in haste without weighing all the pros & cons of this pup vs a new pup or any dog, is the only thing I would ask of you. 



Andrea (in Ontario, Canada)
& Jersey 8 1/2 year old GSD with ME (congenital)
& Diva 5 year old GSD with ME (congenital)


----------



## 2S1H

I think I have the plans for Sidneys portable chair as well

To Selzer: I think this is a wonderfully written post employing logic and removing the high emotions this subject is creating (& always creates). Glad you slept on your reply!

To DTS: It is a tough decision to make, not one to make in haste without weighing all the pros & cons of this pup vs a new pup or any dog, is the only thing I would ask of you. 



Andrea (in Ontario, Canada)
& Jersey 8 1/2 year old GSD with ME (congenital)
& Diva 5 year old GSD with ME (congenital)


----------



## 2S1H

Sorry for the double post, sort of?!

Still new to replying here!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Did MRL offer to take the pup? 

My Mega-E foster pup (the one who was surgically corrected for PRAA) had no medical bills at all related to the Mega-E.

Honestly, anything could happen. Just look around in the health section and you will see very well bred dogs with all kinds of issues from accidents or congenital problems. I have a rescued belgian malinois who came to me 6 years ago with all kinds of health problems. His biggest health expense to date was $700 from a run-in with a porcupine (he tried to herd it and ended up with quills embedded under his skin) after hours on a holiday weekend. 

I'm sorry but I don't see this as a difficult decision at all. That pup deserves the opportunity to live a happy, long life. No matter your decision, the breeder needs to educate himself about Mega-E and the pup needs to be given a chance.


----------



## selzer

Sorry, I said MRL, when it was actually JeanK that has several fosters who are experienced with this condition, and would be willing to take the puppy. A later post stresses that there is a third option, so I took it she has contacts with experience that will help this puppy. 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Your vet sounds inexperienced in this area. Which is fine, they all can't know all things. But what you could do now, in addition to joining the Yahoo group (there's a vet on there) is go to your teaching hospital in Florida to confirm diagnosis and get more comprehensive information on what to expect with your pup's level of Mega E (and rule out PRAA). Because they see it all the time, they will be able to tell you more, much like MRL is saying, is my guess. That will help you relax.
> 
> You've done a good job in following up a concern many others might have ignored. Now you need to get more information to help you decide how to handle it. It sounds like your puppy is living well with it thus far. In the rescue I volunteer with I've seen the PRAA and varying levels of Mega E (some with other things as well). The last pup was in good shape and is thriving! We have 3 fosters who are good at Mega E and seem to "like" it, like others like other things. They all say there's nothing like the bond with a Mega E dog. That Yahoo group will be helpful.
> 
> Be aware that there are people who will offer to take this puppy. They are not with a rescue. PM me if any questions.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Actually, I think Jean was warning that they are unscrupulous people who will offer to take the pup and offering advice on how to feel more comfortable caring for the pup. I don't see anyone actually offering to adopt or take the pup into foster unless that happened via pm.


----------



## selzer

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Please don't forget, you do have another option.
> 
> For right now, deciding to keep him, I would start an emergency fund up, or check into Care Credit, etc, just so you have a plan in place. He seems like such a hardy little guy and my hope is that he continues on, with you, like the other more mild cases.





JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Well, the third option is also still available - with you at a *very* net loss due to the contract - but the puppy alive and well and provided for for life. But it's there and takes away some of that black and white.
> 
> It seems like there is not going to be a compromise on the reimbursement? I am not sure how you feel - like there might be some flexibility to pursue? If not, that is the point you are going to have to move on from, unfortunately.
> 
> I don't agree with the way it's been handled on that end, and certainly a lesson for others on what a contract really means (or does not). I hate lessons that are learned at the expense of the original person and animal though.


I guess I am not understanding what the three options are. 

1 was to send the pup back where it will be euthanized or euth it yourself. 

2 was to keep the pup and deal with the issue. 

3, well my understanding was that there are people who are willing to take this puppy, provide for it for life, and it takes away some of the black and white, which I took to mean that if the pup did have many more health concerns that the OP was already having difficulty with, rehoming with someone comfortable with the condition and willing to take on the expense would remove that concern. 

I am sorry if I got that wrong. I certainly got the poster wrong. I must be slipping in my old age.


----------



## katieliz

depending on where your values lie, you could regret sending this puppy to a certain death long after you've forgotten exactly how much money this all cost. i hope you keep your puppy, as well as keeping an optimistic attitude, and if things do go south, dealing with those circumstances when and as they arise and with a much clearer conscience. because you are right, this is a moral issue. so much great information and shared experience already on this thread you can take advantage of. while the breeder of this puppy may surely be within their "rights" contractually, it seems as tho they might be lacking in the compassion and customer service department, and possibly a bit in the veterinary medical info department. i'm sorry this has happened to you, and you don't seem unreasonable in what you wish the breeder would do. but they've told you what the reality is of what they will do. so, that's that. i sure do hope you decide to keep your puppy until that definitively proves to be an unworkable decision (he becomes too sick, it does become un-doable financially), plan as best you can for that, and deal with it when/as it happens.

and about the money...do a mind trick and pretend you took a fabulous vacation and the money's gone. don't waste anymore energy resenting it. jmho. got my fingers crossed for your puppy.


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## katieliz

were those "people who are willing to take the puppy and provide, etc., etc.", hypothetical people? i also didn't see any actual offers.


----------



## selzer

I guess I am just reading things into the statements. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

> I'm sorry but I don't see this as a difficult decision at all. That pup deserves the opportunity to live a happy, long life. No matter your decision, the breeder needs to educate himself about Mega-E and the pup needs to be given a chance.


The most upsetting part of this is that this puppy will (would? ) live a normal healthy life. 

The pups that suffer and die are the ones that are ill before weaning. The ones that any good breeder would know has an issue and would never have sold. And clearly this breeder if they had suspected would have a killed it earlier. 

Everyone with actual real experience with the condition is saying the pup should grow up fine. The breeder knows nothing and is making up stuff now about bacterial infections plus pain and suffering that the puppy is NOT having. 

Both my GSD pups who were afflicted EXACTLY as this one is (and on the spectrum we are lucky because the condition CAN be severe) and I also spent zero extra money after initial diagnoses. 

I have no idea why you are building the Bailey chair when your pup has shown it can 100% gain weight health and vigor with simply raised food. 

Both my breeders were honest and I took on the pups knowing about the condition and their honesty confirmed my decision that I had chosen responsible breeders. However, I did get a price reduction because they knew the pups weren't 100% and knew there was a chance of vet visits. 

All puppies are a bit of a Crap shoot with responsible breeders doing their best. The fact this will probably be a MINOR issue that you already know about is an advantage. 

I still can't get over killing a 100% healthy pup that is completely normal and thriving on the slight chance they may get sick sometime in the future. 

I know I would choose to keep this vital healthy pup and love it as a gift it is. If sometime in the future it gets deathy ill then I'd deal with the decision to save it pain and suffering at that time, when it IS in PAIN and suffering.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

katieliz said:


> depending on where your values lie, you could regret sending this puppy to a certain death long after you've forgotten exactly how much money this all cost. i hope you keep your puppy, as well as keeping an optimistic attitude, and if things do go south, dealing with those circumstances when and as they arise and with a much clearer conscience. because you are right, this is a moral issue. so much great information and shared experience already on this thread you can take advantage of. while the breeder of this puppy may surely be within their "rights" contractually, it seems as tho they might be lacking in the compassion and customer service department, and possibly a bit in the veterinary medical info department. i'm sorry this has happened to you, and you don't seem unreasonable in what you wish the breeder would do. but they've told you what the reality is of what they will do. so, that's that. i sure do hope you decide to keep your puppy until that definitively proves to be an unworkable decision (he becomes too sick, it does become un-doable financially), plan as best you can for that, and deal with it when/as it happens.
> 
> and about the money...do a mind trick and pretend you took a fabulous vacation and the money's gone. don't waste anymore energy resenting it. jmho. got my fingers crossed for your puppy.



Well put, and I really appreciate how clearly you been able to read everyone's posts and keep a clear head. :thumbup:


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## Kat Tastic

If no one minds my asking (and I AM unsure of the etiquette in asking, I've never bought a purebred dog before, only horses) how much did your pup cost?

Again, (everyone!) please correct me if this is an inappropriate question! I will not be offended, and would appreciate the knowledge.

If it is a large sum to purchase one of these puppies, that is where my stance on a 50% refund comes in...or a discount as it were. 

The breeder refunding every penny and not getting the pup back (regardless of what he SAYS he will do with it) is unreasonable. A discount, however, is not.

Has anyone else purchased from this breeder that you are aware of? Do you know anyone else who is familiar with them, maybe their vet? There is a -chance- him telling you that the dog must be put down is a scare tactic (not one I would gamble on, but none the less). Have you asked,"If I decided to put the pup down and get a replacement pup, how soon will that happen and will you ensure it does not have any MegaE/health issues as this one?" I'm curious how that conversation would go.


All of my rambling aside: Another option may be finding someone who would be willing to take the pup at a discount, he gets that money (I suggest you negotiate a little off the top for your losses if you feel it necessary) and sends you a replacement pup as well. Everyone wins if he will agree to it. The pup gets rehomed with someone who knows the risks and condition, you get a new (hopefully) healthy puppy, and the breeder still gets some $$. *If you go with this idea, I suggest you line it all up to potentially take place first and then take the offer to him to see if he bites.*

Or, you could just sell the pup yourself to someone who is willing to undertake its needs to recoup your own money and go to another breeder. There are other angles that can be taken.

Sorry, I know I'm new around here and certainly my intention in not to upset or rile anyone, just some ideas. It's a hard situation, but it doesn't have to be so black and white when it comes to this pup.


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## barnyard

I've thought about this and have a couple more thoughts.
First, this breeder is terrible. Sorry, but he is offering you a horrible, draconian choice - put up with the problem or he'll solve the problem by putting the pup to sleep. I would be tempted to tell him you will let everyone know about this breeder and this pup's problem unless he refunds you at least some of the money you paid. Only he could sue you - that happened recently with a local puppy mill - the county's animal control officer, and everyone who weighed in on the situation on facebook was mentioned in the lawsuit. 
So, I would consider going back to him, and saying you would sign a non disclosure letter (i.e you would not disclose name of breeder) if he would give back at least some of the funds, no replacement pup, and you either keep or rehome the pup. If he wants to keep his "good name" he may do this.
Second, I know it is upsetting and frustrating to have to pay that much in medical bills when you thought you were getting a healthy dog by going through a breeder. And I understand you don't really want to raise a dog that has this problem - both because of the possible expenses as well as just dealing with the issues of a sick dog. I don't blame you at all. But bad things happen. I've learned over the years to chalk some things up to a learning experience, consider the money lost, and move on by either finding the dog a new home, or keeping the pup if you really feel you can deal with the health issues that may arise.


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## JakodaCD OA

Kat, you can certainly ask the price, it's up to the OP whether she wishes to post it which is acceptable here. 

I think the OP definitely has a tough call to make I can honestly say I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, it would be very very hard for me to euth a puppy unless it was suffering, on the other hand, I'm not sure I would be up to the task of or even want to take on the task of caring for a dog with mega e  

I remember a post awhile back from a member who purchased a puppy with a contract similar (altho her contract was they would replace the puppy without her having to give up the one she had or send it back)..the puppy had severe HD, needed surgeries , and also I think had a pretty wicked overbite if I remember correctly that also required surgery. The breeder was not going to budge on a refund, in the end HE did refund, there was alot of pressure put on him to do so, not HERE, but another forum. In my mind, he did a 'good' thing, something not required for sure, but a 'good' thing which most likely 'upped' his credibility and atleast showed he had compassion and cared about what happened to the puppies he was producing.

There are many suggestions offered, all good ones. 

I'm sorry you are going thru this, I'm sorry the puppy is going thru this, it's not an easy decision to make


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## kr16

Not to hard to figure out who the breeder is

Male and Female puppies will cost $1100.00 plus shipping.


Here is the contract

THE SELLER HAS AGREED TO SELL TO THE BUYER, AND THE BUYER HAS AGREED TO PURCHASE FROM THE SELLER,
THE FOLLOWING DESCRIBED LIVE CANINE:
BREED:_____GERMAN SHEPHERD______NAME________
DATE OF BIRTH :_____SEX :______
CANINE HAS HAD THE FOLLOWING TRAINING :
( ) NONE, ( ) OBEDIENCE, ( ) PROTECTION, ( ) OTHER _________________

ALL REPRESENTATIONS AS TO PARENTAGE AND PEDIGREE ARE MADE EXCLUSIVELY ON AKC AND OTHER RECORDS
PROVIDED TO SELLER BY SUPPLIERS AND BREEDERS, AND ARE INFORMATIONAL ONLY NOT WARRANTED BY SELLER. 
BUYER ACKNOWLEDGES THAT CANINE IS LIVE, AND THAT TRAINING NEED BE CONTINUED AND COMPLIED WITH FOR 
SATISFACTORY RESULTS WITH CANINE. BUYER ACKNOWLEDGES THAT CANINE WILL BE SUBJECT TO VARIOUS 
ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS INCLUDING CARE AND FEEDING BY BUYER, HIS AGENTS, EMPLOYEES, AND FAMILY, WHICH
CARE MAY ALTER OR MODIFY CANINE'S TEMPERAMENT AND TRAINING. SELLER ASSUMES NO LIABILITY FOR FUTURE 
ACTIONS OF CANINE. BUYER AGREES TO INDEMNIFY SELLER OF ACTIONS RESULTING FROM BUYER'S EXERCISE OF CARE, 
CUSTODY, CONTROL, AND POSSESSION OF CANINE.

CONDITIONS FOR GUARANTEE
IN THE EVENT THAT CANINE NAMED IN THIS CONTRACT IS DIAGNOSED BY THE ORTHOPEDIC FOUNDATION OF AMERICA (OFA) AS 
SUFFERING FROM CRIPPLING HIP DYSPLASIA UP TO THE AGE OF 4 YEARS. Your puppy will have been wormed twice and had
a parvo shot at 6 weeks of age and a DHLPPC at 8 weeks of age. You can have as much time as need to go to your 
own vet to have your puppy checked. We guarantee our puppies to be healthy, free of genetic issues and for temperament 
up to 4 years of age. We warranty against pre-existing, life-threatening or life-shortening genetic issue or disabilities. 
We do not warranty against normal puppy hood ailments such as giardia, various worms, kennel cough or coccidiosis, as these 
can at times be unpreventable. RETURN HIM/HER TO THE KENNEL, ALONG WITH AKC CERTIFICATE, THE CANINE SHALL BE REPLACED BY 
SELLER WITH A PUPPY OF LIKE BREED AND LINEAGE.
We do not take any responsibility for veterinarian bills or any other expenses incurred after the purchase of the puppy.

We also offer money back to those people that buy 8 week old puppies and title them. 

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE:
$50.00 BACK IF YOUR CANINE RECEIVES A CD or SDA P1, PD1 title
$50.00 BACK IF YOUR CANINE RECEIVES AN AGILITY TITLE
$100.00 BACK IF YOUR CANINE RECEIVES A SCHUTZHUND 1 TITLE
$100.00 BACK IF YOUR CANINE RECEIVES A POLICE DOG CERTIFICATE
$1000.00 refund if your puppy receives it's "SCHUTZHUND 3" title.

LIMITATION OF GUARANTEE:
THIS GUARANTEE APPLIES TO THE ORIGINAL BUYER ONLY AND IS NON-TRANSFERABLE. THE CANINE MUST BE IN GOOD PHYSICAL 
CONDITION. NO REPLACEMENT WILL BE GIVEN IF MALE OR FEMALE HAS BEEN NEUTERED, SPAYED OR BRED BEFORE THE AGE OF TWO. 
NO REPLACEMENT WILL BE GIVEN IF CANINE HAS NOT BEEN REGISTERED. OWNER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR TRANSPORTATION COSTS TO AND FROM KENNEL.
Seller aggress not to disclose any of the buyers personal information.

BUYER _____________________________________ SELLER _______________________________DATE _______

PRICE___________________ TERMS_____________________________________________________

DOWN PAYMENT_________________ BALANCE ____________________


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## katieliz

Oh my GOSH!!! So, in other words, if you train and/or compete you get money back, but if we sell you a dog that's not sound...sorry pal???

Very small world in the sheppie community, word will travel. I mean, even if you have ethical reasons for euth of a puppy you've sold, WHO in their right mind tells the client-owner that???


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## Sunflowers

barnyard said:


> I would consider going back to him, and saying you would sign a non disclosure letter (i.e you would not disclose name of breeder) if he would give back at least some of the funds, no replacement pup, and you either keep or rehome the pup. If he wants to keep his "good name" he may do this.


Way too late for this, considering the posts on this forum are never deleted and that cat is long out of the bag.


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## mycobraracr

For a forum that doesn't allow breeder bashing, the mods are allowing this breeder to get beat to a bloody pulp. Honestly it disgust me! This is a reputable breeder who isn't running away from the issue. They have been trying to work with DTS. Waiting until a dog is suffering to put it down is cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion. The puppy has a defect. They are not denying it. The fact is, this breed is full of genetic issues and statistically, if you breed long enough something is going to pop up no matter how careful you are. The breeder has been communicating with DTS and gave her options. She made her decision so it's on her now. People don't often think of the financial burden dealing with a dog with an issue can be. In the long run for DTS is that $1100 really going to help? Probably not! People need to stop thinking emotionally and start thinking rationally. I have been in the same boat as DTS. I completely understand and can empathize with her situation, but this crap is getting ridiculous! Threads like this are one reason I hate humans. This breeder has been producing nice, sound dogs since the 60's, and all of a sudden one person has an issue and they are doomed to ****. I also find it interesting that none of the breeders on this forum have even touched this thread. Hmm..... 

If anyone is wondering, yes I have two dogs from this breeder and Kiersten is talking to them for her replacement when Heidi retires. They have been extremely stable dogs capable of anything thrown at them. I will not hesitate to buy a dog from them or recommend them to everyone! There are also at least twenty other very happy members of this forum with dogs from them.


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## Saphire

mycobraracr said:


> For a forum that doesn't allow breeder bashing, the mods are allowing this breeder to get beat to a bloody pulp. Honestly it disgust me! This is a reputable breeder who isn't running away from the issue. They have been trying to work with DTS. Waiting until a dog is suffering to put it down is cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion. The puppy has a defect. They are not denying it. The fact is, this breed is full of genetic issues and statistically, if you breed long enough something is going to pop up no matter how careful you are. The breeder has been communicating with DTS and gave her options. She made her decision so it's on her now. People don't often think of the financial burden dealing with a dog with an issue can be. In the long run for DTS is that $1100 really going to help? Probably not! People need to stop thinking emotionally and start thinking rationally. I have been in the same boat as DTS. I completely understand and can empathize with her situation, but this crap is getting ridiculous! Threads like this are one reason I hate humans. This breeder has been producing nice, sound dogs since the 60's, and all of a sudden one person has an issue and they are doomed to ****. I also find it interesting that none of the breeders on this forum have even touched this thread. Hmm.....
> 
> If anyone is wondering, yes I have two dogs from this breeder and Kiersten is talking to them for her replacement when Heidi retires. They have been extremely stable dogs capable of anything thrown at them. I will not hesitate to buy a dog from them or recommend them to everyone! There are also at least twenty other very happy members of this forum with dogs from them.


For the record, I have no idea who this breeder is. I do think the breeder could deal with this with more compassion. I also understand this is a business and the decision is a business one...period.
I have more of an issue with the pressure being put on the op to "save" this puppy. The op went to a reputable breeder, paid good money and expected a healthy dog. There is nothing wrong with this. The breeder should not have told the op that the puppy was going to be pts if returned...that is pulling on emotion and so not fair. Having gone through similar (multiple genetic illness), I would not do it again. 
It is NOT the op fault this puppy has a problem, the breeder has offered a replacement puppy of which the contract states would be done. The problem began with the breeder telling the op of the puppies fate....very unprofessional and so hurtful.

If the op chooses to return the puppy in exchange for a hopefully healthy puppy they so yearn, there is nothing wrong with that! The guilt trips should go to the breeder who 1. told the op the puppy would be pts and 2. for lacking the knowledge about this puppies condition and long them prognosis thus the decision to pts.

I loved my last GSD and still miss him but I would not go that road again....it was alot of work....expense and in the end heartache.

We, me included advocate that buyers look for a reputable breeder so as to increase the odds of a healthy, stable dog. Please stop making this op feel like a murdering heathen should they choose to return the puppy. 

To the op...my heart is with you as I know this is not an easy decision for you. Make sure the decision you make is yours.

hugz 
Cathy


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## mycobraracr

I don't see how the breeder telling her they are going to put it down is unprofessional. What do you think happens to puppies that get sent back to breeders? They go live in the land od rainbows and lolli-pops? When I went through the genetic issue with Recon, his breeder(not this one) told me they were going to put him down. So I made the decision to do it myself. Part of life is death. I wanted his last days to at least be with me in a place he was comfortable. I guess I'm weird because I prefer honestly to help me make my decision. 

Also criticizing the breeder for lack of knowledge of the issue is funny considering the "experts" commenting on it have dealt with it what, once maybe twice? Instead of listening to a breeder that's been in the breed for 30 plus years and has vet experience. Oh and for giggles Kiersten was asking the vets at her work about it. She works in a very large vet hospital with 25 vets/specialists on staff and over 100 employees. It's interesting the different advice you get from people who actually know what they are talking about. 

OP- My post have very little to do with you and are more about how this breeder is being treated. I do not envy your situation at all and I suggest you take some time to really consider your options as it is not one to be rushed.


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## Saphire

mycobraracr said:


> I don't see how the breeder telling her they are going to put it down is unprofessional. What do you think happens to puppies that get sent back to breeders? They go live in the land od rainbows and lolli-pops? When I went through the genetic issue with Recon, his breeder(not this one) told me they were going to put him down. So I made the decision to do it myself. Part of life is death. I wanted his last days to at least be with me in a place he was comfortable. I guess I'm weird because I prefer honestly to help me make my decision.
> 
> Also criticizing the breeder for lack of knowledge of the issue is funny considering the "experts" commenting on it have dealt with it what, once maybe twice? Instead of listening to a breeder that's been in the breed for 30 plus years and has vet experience. Oh and for giggles Kiersten was asking the vets at her work about it. She works in a very large vet hospital with 25 vets/specialists on staff and over 100 employees. It's interesting the different advice you get from people who actually know what they are talking about.
> 
> OP- My post have very little to do with you and are more about how this breeder is being treated. I do not envy your situation at all and I suggest you take some time to really consider your options as it is not one to be rushed.


What I believe is the breeder can do whatever they feel is appropriate, this does not need to be shared, especially when it may have a direct impact on the decision to return. You risk an ill puppy being left in the hands of someone possibly not capable of proper care whether it be emotional or financial all because they could not accept the breeder pts. I myself know nothing of this condition other than what has been posted here. If the breeder has not run into this condition before I doubt they have alot of experience with it but that's alot of assumptions.

When I return an item to a store I don't ask if it will be refurbished and sold to another.....I am simply taking an emotional subject and putting it into a business.


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## Rainer

I think the issue that most have is the breeder is willing to PTS a puppy without considering the severity of the issue. I have no personal experience with the condition in a dog of mine, but I do know a megaE pup since he was a baby who is thriving and I've read other posters experience. 

I think if the breeder has truly never had this happen in his lines, it would make sense to either re-home the puppy to someone he personally knows that has experience with the condition so he can keep tabs, or possibly keeping the puppy themselves to learn firsthand about it. Saying a puppy, that is in no pain now, should be PTS because of the possibility of pain is ridiculous, in my opinion. If that were the case then we should all put down our puppies to sleep bc of the possibility of pain in the future from DM, HD, bloat, certain cancers, etc ... All things this breed is at a higher risk of. 

I think it's up to the OP to make their decision and it's a personal choice - no judgement required since no one can ever fully know someone else's situation. 

As to the breeder the comment about the breeder...I don't think anyone is really bashing them. They may have bred many wonderful dogs in the past, and may very we'll continue to do so in the future, but I wouldn't want to be the .01% that ends up in this situation with this particular breeder. Statistics mean nothing until you become one of them. Compassion and "customer service" is a big part of business...

Sorry if some of this seems all over the place...typing on my phone and it keeps zooming in and out. Lol darn technology!


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## barnyard

I have a friend who is a breeder (not of GSDs) and has had to take back pups occasionally. In most cases they have chosen to keep the dogs themselves or find a home that can deal with the issue. In one case they had to take back a dog who developed aggression due to a tumor and had him pts. I thought that most breeders handled things this way so I have to admit I was shocked when I heard how it would be handled. But perhaps it is typical and if it is then I was wrong to call the breeder terrible, but it does seem very harsh, especially for the op.
And we have only gone to a breeder the first time we got a dog, and after that we decided we would go to a rescue. We have run into health problems either way, honestly.
To the op, I don't envy your choice, and I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Best wishes whatever you decide.


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## mycobraracr

Saphire said:


> When I return an item to a store I don't ask if it will be refurbished and sold to another.....I am simply taking an emotional subject and putting it into a business.


 
When you return an item to a store, a lot of stores only give you store credit (replacement). You can't keep your torn sweater and get your money back.


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## Saphire

Yes your correct....and is usually stated on receipt aka contract.


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## katieliz

It's hard to look into the eyes of a sweater and become emotionally involved, so there's less need for the compassion and consideration part of customer service. Very difficult sometimes to be in a business that deals in living beings.

Been a very interesting thread with good info and different perspectives.


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## onyx'girl

The puppy and quality of life is what should be the important factor. Is the MegaE a severe or mild case? Is it something that may get better as puppy grows? I personally can't understand the PTS requirement, if someone would be willing to care for this pup. MegaE is NOT a death sentence!!
Because this breeder is well known and of a good reputation, they must know they are being discussed on a public forum. I hope they take that into consideration when the puppy's fate is decided.


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## llombardo

I think this is just an awful situation for all involved, especially the puppy. He is adorable and there is no way professionally or not I could suggest putting this dog to sleep. He is thriving from what I can see and I could never live with the what ifs. I want to know if the breeder is pulling the parents from the breeding program? I would fight tooth and nail for this little guy and pray that he remains healthy. Does any pet insurances cover this? I would look into that option. I also think that the OP has done a fantastic job of not bashing the breeder, I wouldn't be that nice.


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## BowWowMeow

A puppy is not a sweater. A puppy is a living, breathing being. S/he should not be pts because of the slight chance of a medical problem arising. This puppy is in NO pain and mild Mega-E is NOT a painful condition. My PRAA foster puppy with Mega-E was turned into the vet to be pts. He was from a working line breeder. The vet took legal responsibility, did the surgery gratis and turned him over to rescue. I took care of him until he was adopted. He walked, played and trained with my dogs every day. He had NO medical problems from his Mega-E and was an amazing dog who lived a long, happy and healthy life. 

I have not looked back to see who the breeder is and I do not care. However, I do know that there are several reputable breeders on this forum who either keep or responsibly place pups with potential or confirmed longterm health conditions so this is clearly not standard or ethical practice. 

There are a zillion threads on here about how responsible breeders don't breed to make money, they breed to better the breed. Obviously sometimes that doesn't work out but it is irresponsible and really poor business practice (even if it is just a business and dogs are like sweaters to you) to condemn a healthy puppy to death without first truly educating yourself about a potential health condition.


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## DTS

So, I was on here, re reading this terrible old thread and realized it's been a whole year to the day that Titan was diagnosed with megaE. 
I read over my fears, and thoughts of what was going to happen to him, how we would care for him, and what his life would be like. 
I hate that this thread turned into something bad, so bad I rarely post anymore. 
But I figured I'd give a little up date. 
As far as his megaE goes, he's doing fantastic. As long as he eats in his chair, his food is blended, and doesn't get fed too close together, he is regurge free. In the last year, he's pry regured 3 times and 2 of those were because we fed him too close together. 
He does try and pick up everything off the floor and eat it, so that's the biggest challenge. 
He's a great dog and I'm learning how to handle such a high drive pup. 
But he didn't get any sicker, and he isn't in any pain. 
He's always happy, and he's the best cuddler I could have asked for. 
Our bond is like no other. 
I'm hoping to try for our BH in FEB 2015, so we shall see. 
But Im glad we decided to keep him. He's just a normal dog, who happens to eat in a chair. And slobbers like a mastiff.


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## Debanneball

Wow, so glad you and Titan will have a long and happy life. I started to read your thread, then got sad and then skipped to the last page.. But now I will go back, read about your journey. Lots of hugs to you and Titan for hanging in there!


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## BowWowMeow

DTS said:


> So, I was on here, re reading this terrible old thread and realized it's been a whole year to the day that Titan was diagnosed with megaE.
> I read over my fears, and thoughts of what was going to happen to him, how we would care for him, and what his life would be like.
> I hate that this thread turned into something bad, so bad I rarely post anymore.
> But I figured I'd give a little up date.
> As far as his megaE goes, he's doing fantastic. As long as he eats in his chair, his food is blended, and doesn't get fed too close together, he is regurge free. In the last year, he's pry regured 3 times and 2 of those were because we fed him too close together.
> He does try and pick up everything off the floor and eat it, so that's the biggest challenge.
> He's a great dog and I'm learning how to handle such a high drive pup.
> But he didn't get any sicker, and he isn't in any pain.
> He's always happy, and he's the best cuddler I could have asked for.
> Our bond is like no other.
> I'm hoping to try for our BH in FEB 2015, so we shall see.
> But Im glad we decided to keep him. He's just a normal dog, who happens to eat in a chair. And slobbers like a mastiff.


This is a wonderful update. So happy for you and Titan and wish you all the best in your training!


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## arycrest

I'm so happy to hear everything is working out well for you and Titan!!!


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## DTS

I don't actually come on the forum much anymore but while I was here I wanted to reread this thread, I do every year or so. It actually makes me very anxious reading it, with all the comments and such. 
My main concern has always been his quality of life. 
Titan is 3 now. He's still the happiest dog I have ever met. He's always wagging his tail, playing, and will even cuddle with me which he's very good at. 
Through everything, I'm glad that I made this decision. It was the right decision. He's not suffering, he's full of life. 
Even though he pushes my buttons some times, I have never regretting giving him a chance. 
He's a great guy  and my one and only boy


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## ksotto333

So glad your boy is doing well.


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## Petra's Dad

DTS said:


> I don't actually come on the forum much anymore but while I was here I wanted to reread this thread, I do every year or so. It actually makes me very anxious reading it, with all the comments and such.
> My main concern has always been his quality of life.
> Titan is 3 now. He's still the happiest dog I have ever met. He's always wagging his tail, playing, and will even cuddle with me which he's very good at.
> Through everything, I'm glad that I made this decision. It was the right decision. He's not suffering, he's full of life.
> Even though he pushes my buttons some times, I have never regretting giving him a chance.
> He's a great guy  and my one and only boy


Thank you for posting an update to this thread! Very nice to hear your pup is doing so well  
Hope your dog is still doing well!!


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