# A Few Things I have Heard or Read..



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

What is the difference between IPO and Schutzhund if any? I have heard/read that Schutzhund is for GSDS and IPO is for all breeds. I have heard/read that Schutzhund was changed to IPO because of the image of teaching a dog to bite, I have heard/read they are one in the same. Can anyone answer correctly? Or is it a mishmash of all the info? 

I heard/read that we no longer have a word to send them to bite. We had protection trained dogs when I was little and my adult family used Fass! I heard that was removed from IPO?

I heard (not read) that they were dropping the focused heel as a points determination? I hope not, we busted our butts to get that right lol. In any event I find it valuable for when I want focus as opposed to a regular loose lead heel. I was originally a non believer thinking the dog looked like he was in danger of hitting a pole..but I now realize the point is not to take walks like that, but to be able to get focus for periods of obedience. I'd hate to see that not emphasized anymore. 

And from a human nature standpoint I see all of the things I deal with in IDPA (international defensive pistol association).So many parallels. It originated as a way for police to practice real life scenarios with the skills they are SUPPOSE to already have in order to be an LEO. A proving ground. Slowly it evolved into civilian past time, became flashy sport. Now people who do IDPA can't necessarily do real life stuff and are more focused on points for finesse "the board" making and changing rules, little nuances, people arguing over the merits of this that and the other thing. Now most real life LEOs and people who see action roll their eyes at the flashy technique and say how real life unsound it is and how people winning trophies in IDPA would last 10 seconds in a shoot house for real. So now IDPA is a thing that mostly civvies do for sport. The LEOs I shoot with that do show up take point deductions because they refuse to do something unsound in the name of flash or finesse. 

The Paradox where real life practice becomes sport becomes something not real life practical anymore. 

Just interesting is all.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

oooohhhh, good thread! I'll pop some popcorn and wait for the wisdom to overcome!


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

From my basic understanding, Schutzhund developed into IPO for international competition reasons (it literally translates into "Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung" AKA International Working Tests). Generally speaking, all working dogs will have an IPO title after the conformation to a single rule base. There's really no difference, other than the fact that most dogs prior to 2004 will be Schutzhund titled, whereas dogs shortly after will be IPO titled. 

Any language is permitted for training, considering that the competition is open internationally. I think you could even use Clingon if you wanted. 

Now, if you want to discuss how the sport has been modified time and time again to make it easier title, _that _will bring about popcorn worthy responses.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

So it is not like there is a Schutzhund title with certain acronyms as opposed to an IPO title that has certain acronyms? Same judges, etc. I honestly do get conflicting info on this. 

I am sensitive to the dumbing down theory. Sure it keeps participation numbers (and financial flow) coming in..but at what true cost? The irony is it eventually devalues the title. This dog is expensive because both Sire and Dam have such and such...yes, but anyone can get such and such these days. Not saying IPO is all the way there, as I am new to it. Just...typically with these things.

At a recent discussion regarding the further modifications in IDPA pistol competition rules I said , let's just drop the D for Defensive and call it IPA. Because that is a beer. And beer is good. Some scenarios call for you to move while shooting. So gamers literally do this ridiculous baby steps thing so they are "moving" and shooting. So "the board" after hearing much of b-ing over this decided that "moving" was too vague of a thing for the Safety Officer (who also gives out penalties) to discern. So you are no longer allowed to give penalties for not moving when it is in the description. So now the stage description of the scenario reads something like this " Engage targets T1 thru T3 while on the move...OR NOT...then proceed to cover" With the OR NOT dripping with sarcasm lol And they now require little wooden sticks on the ground for the shooter to step on so that he can "feel" if he is in cover or not. Because that is realistic. 

^It is stuff like THAT, jumping through hoops to make sure everyone has a chance and does not cry foul, even if they are not up to snuff, that makes a real world test evolve into everyone gets a trophy. Or at least a very good chance of getting a trophy.

Anyway, now that I have been hanging around I see parallels in IPO. On a business trip I visited one club and an IPO 1 dog was a rocket on the field, but shy off of it. Shy? 

It's a known phenomenon. Almost every game or sport in history was initially a test/outlet of the already skilled. Until it evolves and becomes an elite sport. 

Just looking for open discussion.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

They don't want a command like attack, they want it to be a release kind of thing. So you can say, go or ok. They're probably going to go anyway after they've done the exercise, so that's just an appearance concern, like a lot of things, so if you have a trained command like that, I don't think not using it in a trial will be very confusing for the dog. Its not focused heeling, its the rigid, robot like heeling they want to get away from. They want to emphasize more of a natural gait without the extreme upward head position.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> They don't want a command like attack, they want it to be a release kind of thing. So you can say, go or ok. They're probably going to go anyway after they've done the exercise, so that's just an appearance concern, like a lot of things, so if you have a trained command like that, I don't think not using it in a trial will be very confusing for the dog. Its not focused heeling, its the rigid, robot like heeling they want to get away from. They want to emphasize more of a natural gait without the extreme upward head position.


So you are allowed to say something to release them, on say...the long bite? I noticed in the blind it seems to be the helper who initiates the bite. Which would make sense in ways. 

I can understand the rigid heel not being great. If you have time, any video example of what they are looking for would be great.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are required to give a Go command on the escape. You do on the long bite. But as soon as you release their collar, they are going anyways. 

No command on the attack out of the transport.

And a dog biting in the blind will lose you a ton of points if not a DQ. That's a bark and told. The helper is giving bites as a reward for barkinb.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

CometDog said:


> So it is not like there is a Schutzhund title with certain acronyms as opposed to an IPO title that has certain acronyms? Same judges, etc. I honestly do get conflicting info on this.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


All SchH titles are equivalent to the IPO title 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, and the BH is still the same title. Which acronyms are you referring to? Certain countries do have their own variation, and it is very different. ZVV, for example, is quite different from IPO. Having a male title to ZVV 3 is a huge deal, and an even bigger deal for a female. But the ZVV is not FCI recognized and therefore not accepted by the WUSV. So sometimes you'll see a dog with both IPO and ZVV titles, as they were likely titled over in Czech Republic before titling in IPO to meet SV breeding standards. 

As for a dog being shy off the field but a total rocket on... what does shy mean, exactly? People might call Ryka shy, when in reality she's aloof. Doesn't care for strangers, but does love people, just not in the same way a Golden does.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Femfa said:


> All SchH titles are equivalent to the IPO title 1=1, 2=2, 3=3, and the BH is still the same title. Which acronyms are you referring to? Certain countries do have their own variation, and it is very different. ZVV, for example, is quite different from IPO. Having a male title to ZVV 3 is a huge deal, and an even bigger deal for a female. But the ZVV is not FCI recognized and therefore not accepted by the WUSV. So sometimes you'll see a dog with both IPO and ZVV titles, as they were likely titled over in Czech Republic before titling in IPO to meet SV breeding standards.
> 
> As for a dog being shy off the field but a total rocket on... what does shy mean, exactly? People might call Ryka shy, when in reality she's aloof. Doesn't care for strangers, but does love people, just not in the same way a Golden does.


Shy meaning skittish. Saw someone approach them and dog tucked behind owner and was doing that scan for a way out look.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Oh and thanks for the explanation of the acronyms! I meant like I am use to seeing, historically SCHI II or III. Will you still see those or will it all be IPO now? Did the name Schutzhund change to IPO in other words?


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> They don't want a command like attack, they want it to be a release kind of thing. So you can say, go or ok. They're probably going to go anyway after they've done the exercise, so that's just an appearance concern, like a lot of things, so if you have a trained command like that, I don't think not using it in a trial will be very confusing for the dog. Its not focused heeling, its the rigid, robot like heeling they want to get away from. They want to emphasize more of a natural gait without the extreme upward head position.


Yes "robot like", "extreme upward head position". I wonder how this got popular? Was it the Mals version of focused heeling?

At first, I thought it was cool. But the more I watched, the more it seemed robotic.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CometDog said:


> So you are allowed to say something to release them, on say...the long bite? I noticed in the blind it seems to be the helper who initiates the bite. Which would make sense in ways.
> 
> I can understand the rigid heel not being great. If you have time, any video example of what they are looking for would be great.


Any bite in the blind is training, shaping the barking or drawing him in maybe, generally rewarding something. There's no bites in the blind in the trial. If your dog likes to bite, he's going to go without you saying anything. You're going to need to concentrate on keeping him in a sit more then any release word, Lol.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I can understand the rigid heel not being great. If you have time, any video example of what they are looking for would be great.


I'll use this dog, because if I remember right in his critique in the Nationals, the judge mentioned the nice picture and attitude with his handler, and it fits in with the overall Wolfstraum theme currently. It was even in a football stadium. Its just the free movement, not halting or stilted.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

I'm sorry. I seem to have drooled all over my keyboard. Was the lady short or the dog huge?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

CometDog said:


> Oh and thanks for the explanation of the acronyms! I meant like I am use to seeing, historically SCHI II or III. Will you still see those or will it all be IPO now? Did the name Schutzhund change to IPO in other words?


 Yes, basically a more politically appropriate sounding name. There were suggestions for yet another change but I am not sure what is happening with that. I haven't been to my old IPO club for a year now.


https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/468873-why-ipo-america.html


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

SchH and IPO were both around for a long time. IPO was the all breed sport under the guidance of the FCI and SchH the breed test for the GSD under the guidance of the SV though done by many of the working breeds. Something most people don't know or recall is that the SchH1 was the actual breed test and the SchH3 was pretty much always (at least in modern times) the competition level. Dogs that had a SchH1 were breed worthy and people didn't look at it as "only" a SchH1. Anyhow, the rules were not exactly the same until they started to converge about the time I did Vala's SchH1 (mid to late 2000's). Before that there were some definite differences and even more before 1992 (when they changed the long bite and brought in the padded stick). Many dogs used to be SchH3 IPO3. In 2012 SchH was eliminated to, supposedly, make things easier, but more so to appease the nanny state, green party and fear mongers since schutzhund means "protection dog". Over time they had also removed any words that meant something "negative" (in their minds) like packen on the long bite. 



Next year it will become IGP with some rules changes to make things easier at the IGP1 level and to make the jump from 1-2-3 levels not so daunting to people. The FCI wants to make it more inclusive to attract more people. IMO some of the rule changes at the 1 level were changed for stupid reasons and bad trainers (if a dog can do the retrieve over the jump and a recall over the wall, they can do a retrieve over the wall), but it is what it is. 



IMO there are still some testing aspects to the current sport. There are a lot of dogs that still can't title and, no, most really good trainers aren't going to work weak dogs so there is some testing. Unfortunately the protection phase where the real test always was is not like it was and people can no longer look at titles and scores alone to judge the quality of the dogs. 



From what I have heard they are going to be looking for more natural heeling that shows a relationship with the handler and not their armpit.  A correct heeling dog that shows focus and power is still going to be wanted.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> IMO there are still some testing aspects to the current sport. There are a lot of dogs that still can't title and, no, most really good trainers aren't going to work weak dogs so there is some testing. Unfortunately the protection phase where the real test always was is not like it was and people can no longer look at titles and scores alone to judge the quality of the dogs.


But could you ever really look at titles and scores alone to judge the actual quality of dogs? Listening to people who've been around a long time talk about the differences in dogs of yesteryear, not in comparison to now, but to each other, it doesn't sound any different from now. This Sch3 dog wasn't the same as that Sch3 dog, right? So same as now, this dog ends up with these points and so does that dog, for different reasons.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

For the most part, you could at least trust that the dogs were tested because the old SchH was a test of the dog. The scores might have been off a bit, but you knew the dogs had been titled and tested. Now? Not so much.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Genalis_mom said:


> I'm sorry. I seem to have drooled all over my keyboard. Was the lady short or the dog huge?


LOL, yes the handler is on the shorter side, and Jagr is a nice sized dog, but not oversized. They are a very sharp team together.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks Lisa for that explanation. Lots of good stuff here, thanks all. 

A relationship with an armpit...that made me lol I keep the tug under my armpit, but he looks at me not the armpit. Once I dropped my resistance to wearing sunglasses. I hate BRIGHT LIGHT BRIGHT LIGHT. Once I realized we don't have to do that eye contact for everything, and that the patterns don't take hours, I gave in and lost the shades. Worked. Sometimes I listen....


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

First I’m really old school having done my stint in the SCH sport prior to all the modernization. The padded stick was introduced just after we achieved Sch III. The stick hits were done with bamboo or cane. The command structure was any language. Probably 3/4 of us used the old standard German commands with the then younger set using English. The courage test command was generally Fass. Sic ‘em not allowed. LOL Otherwise commands as you wished. Only a single command. The drawn out down on the video send out would have been faulty. Point or two. 

In the courage test As I recall Sch I and II you could hold the dog then release with command. Sch III the dog needed to be free sit,stand or down until sent. That part was difficult but it was a training thing. Many tried Force and e collars. But to get the truly powerful drive it took the calmness in the dog knowing that he would be shortly free to really fight hard.

The video was excellent and I can’t take away from the performance except the miscue at the wall and the sendout.
Overall excellent. I’m not a judge only comparing the old vs the new. The handler presented a nice picture. In the days of old I think she would have been docked for handler help having her hand above and outside of the dog. Do you really walk down the street like that? Additionally while the dog is very attentive and closely watches her, he is in the way across her body. My dog used to watch me intently but walked straight. Today my Aussie who is very animated like the video, walks straight but looks up to me. As the dog gets to know and trust you he no longer needs to look straight ahead. Also I see lots of this type of heel today. We wanted to present a more natural gate as you might walking down the street. 

Tracking I don’t think too much has changed. Closer calls on article indication and tighter judging on corners.

Sch I was the test true enough. The Sch II and III were mostly for males to demonstrate the real deep qualities and true working ability. Indeed many went on to be outstanding enforcement dogs. Today many LEO don’t want SCH/IPO dogs as they often do not have the nerves and true hardness for patrol dogs. Indeed the comment heard is that “we send our ‘junk’ dogs to those stupid Americans”.

So many of the patrol,dogs come from the Eastern block as they are considered the real,old school GSD. They probably do not make good sport dogs under today’s rules. 

Many dogs I see today would not get past SCH/IPO I if that far, in days of old.

The sport has changed due to,outside forces and to create more interest. I know it was hard on many people to work for two years only to find their dog just wasn’t up to the task.

I just wanted to present a nostalgia look at the sport. 

I still use a few German commands with my Aussie. Some look at me funny in dog classes. My recall is heir, but I also use a slight hand signal, whistle and flashlight. We use two different finishes, one with German Command the other a slight hand signal. We use Aus and Out for two different things. Many commands are run together words. Aussies can learn conversational commands too. “ Go get your groundhog” to go and find her groundhog toy. So we have deviated from the old training a lot.

Byron


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thank you for all of that! I love to hear nostalgia. I know memory glosses over things especially when the memories are from when you were young...but I do remember our dogs that we imported as being way more centered. Maybe the term is clear headed. Family didn't have sleeves, just bite suits. Again this is all memory from my childhood until about age 19 (and I am 48). I don't recall any of them screaming while waiting to work, or screaming while biting. I did not train any of these dogs obviously..but I did know their obedience commands and how to handle them. Was left alone with them a lot in hotel rooms etc. Family was in the music business. Ah the 70s....

The 1st GSD I remember belonged to my uncle and was most definitely a well trained protection dog. I also remember doing "this little piggy" to him. He was super stable. I use to read kid story books to him and he would put his head in my lap. I am dying to get pics of us together. I was about 5 when they got him. He was the one that made me a GSD person for life.


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