# Herding Instinct versus prey drive-*long*



## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Thought I would post here as there are more herding people here...

I brought my 10 month old DDR Bred pup to a Course A trainer to test for instinct a month ago. My pup showed extreme focus on sheep but still downed on command. The trainer was able to hold short leash and have her circle sheep around her in both directions. We have had 3 lessons since then and she seemed like she was progressing. She was starting to figure out "get around" on leash; walk up; and out. But, she would also try to get to the sheep when she thought nobody was looking (like if I had my attention on trainer telling me something and forgot to give a stay).

Now, I have a real HIGH DRIVE dog. Not the kind people think is high drive!! She has an extreme play drive and an extreme prey drive (chases anything that moves, cat toy with red light, butterflies, moths, chipmunks, my son (never bites just chases him down and than abruptly stops in front of him with tail wagging). So, I keep her busy with tons of exercise and many activities.

Today, we gave her a long leash after doing the prelim stuff and it wasn't pretty. She is great if sheep walk but trot or canter and it's off to races! Trainer let her be to see what she would do and she would regularly separate sheep out and chase but definitely did NOT bite down. She also still had her down and stay and would release during chase and down on command.

But, I am starting to think that she is just high in prey drive and not instinct? Or, am I overreacting.

Trainer says she can be trained and she does move off pressure of plastic fork hit on ground or once lightly on head when she got to focused (in the bad sense). Thinks she'll pass her HIC no problem. But, today she says she will not be an "easy" dog to train with her prey drive. It was new information for me.

There is just this little voice inside me that wonders if her high prey drive will be a serious problem. She doesn't really want to circle them and round them up but chase them. Is this normal or no? But, it's weird because she does have very good control (meaning she will freeze in tracks and down in middle of chasing) which is an odd mix.

She is a very confident girl but no where near alpha material. Would score mostly 3 and 4's with no 1s or 2s on test. A very sweet dog. Never had food aggression or any aggression. Very,very, very biddable and eager to please dog.

Any thoughts? Thank you in advance...


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

She is a baby...she is still in the learning phase. You are expecting too much from her at this age.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Well, I thought that too until a 5 month old border collie puppy blew her out of the water and actually tried to circle the sheep and herd them (not chase them like my girl) complete with a down on command. 

Could it be possible that my dog just *might* have too much prey drive and not enough herding instinct? Or, am I jumping the gun and she just needs more time?

How does one know if:

1)Your dog has genetic herding instinct versus being obedient enough to be trained to herd? Not the same thing in my eyes.

2)If your dog belongs in course A or C or would that not even matter?

Thanks..... :-(


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It's hard to be sure. If you have a high drive dog, a small flock may be too flighty to be able to work easily. The sheep spook which gets the dog excited and then it spirals out of control. 
If I tried to work Kessy on a small flock I think it would be a nightmare. She is just too powerful and drivey. Even with a flock of 100 she can get over-excited when moving the flock, and I have to watch her. I couldn't even imagine how she'd be with a flock of 5-10!! But with 200...she's AMAZING...the more sheep the better for her.

Sorry, it's probably not too helpful, but your dog may still have herding instinct, it may just be the flock is too small and flighty for it to show. Any chance you could find a larger flock to work? 

And yes - she is still young, I wouldn't put too much pressure on her. And she may develop even more drive as she ages and might want to start gripping the sheep instead of just chasing.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Border collies work much differently than GSD's...they work off the sheep's "bubble" and seem to grasp it at a very young age. GSD's are not meant to work like that so try not to compare your dog to the BC. 
I don't know if you've seen this, but this link has some good info about herding styles...
Herding Style is Not a Fashion Statement


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi, there! Thanks! So, you think I should maybe try Course C style with more sheep?

Would keeping a boundary versus gathering and moving be less exciting for her to calm her prey drive?

She did try to mouth the back of a couple sheep's heads near the shoulders-neck area like she was trying to get on top of their neck area but she didn't bite down and I was able to call her off. I don't want her to hurt the sheep and my instructor said that her trying to do that was inappropriate.

Right now for training, she is in a round pen with 3 sheep (though they are dog trained).


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Yes - C course or HGH would be much better (IMO). The sheep will graze calmly which will keep the dog calm too. Eventually you do need to move the sheep, but that shouldn't come until the dog is steady and under control on the border. If she can't learn to maintain a border then you can be pretty sure it's just prey drive and not herding instinct. 
Just be careful, your dog is still so young, we don't usually start dogs until they are at least a year old, and then the training is very slow and careful.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Thank you very much for your replies and input!!

I really appreciate it!!! This gives me something to think about......


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think your dog has bigtime prey drive, but she sounds like she has good play drive. (Really no such thing as play drive) What I mean is that real prey drive usually ends in biting until the dog has been corrected not to bite. I have seen very very few DDR dogs with big time prey drive, though if your dog is DDR/Czech or DDR/West then its possible. I agree with Andaka, just let the puppy grow up and continue herding. You did not describe an extremely powerful puppy in terms of drives. Sounds like a nice solid dog that will progress with the trainer as time goes on.....some instincts kick in later.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Ok, thanks, Cliffson! I guess we think she has "bigtime" drive as she drives us crazy as opposed to the other dogs we have owned!!

I have never seen a dog chase that cat toy that lights up with a red light if you point it on the floor with such intensity! She chases anything that moves but doesn't know what to do with herself when she gets there!!

But, she does chill in the house. however, as soon as I get up to go to kitchen or anything she flies up and sprints to me and just stares at me or brings me a toy. Sometimes, I wish she had an off switch.

She mostly follows me around each room unless she is exhausted from exercise. I even see her nose peeking into the shower. But, when my 5 year old goes to bed she follows him up and lays with him and won't leave his bed until I come get her. Weird because it's the ONLY time she leaves me alone and doesn't follow me around with a toy or a stare to play! LOL

I can leave her alone in the house out of her crate and she is fine until we get home. She might steal my slipper and hide it in her crate (but never chews it).

On a positive note, she is always ready to go and up for anything and very biddable!

Yes, she does not bite aggressively when she chases as well.

She is almost entirely DDR bred from what I have been told.....

Thanks again for your input!


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

I don't know much about herding but it sounds like your dog is doing great. As a side note I noticed you talking about the red cat light toy, if this is a red laser light I had to comment, the laser lights are very bad for the GSD. They seem to be fine for cats but for some reason it causes OCD behaviors in dogs that cannot be fixed, as far as I know. The OCD can become serious. Just wanted to warn you as I have heard of many dogs with OCD from those laser lights. We had a discussion about them on another forum I belong to and we were warned to never use them.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't think your dog has bigtime prey drive, but she sounds like she has good play drive. (Really no such thing as play drive) What I mean is that real prey drive usually ends in biting until the dog has been corrected not to bite. I have seen very very few DDR dogs with big time prey drive, though if your dog is DDR/Czech or DDR/West then its possible.



Hmmmm. My DDR girl (2-4 on Sven) has real "bigtime" prey drive, by your definition--she has prey drive for things that she can bite/kill (cats, chicken, goats, sheep--no, I don't work her in herding! although she has a full sister who is doing great and her mom and half-sister have also shown good instincts and trainability on sheep). 

But her toy/ball/object drive is like a 3 out of 10. Training her in bitework is quite a learning experience for me--very different from my Belgian/German working lines--we're gradually upping her desire to bite/hold/"own" the sleeve and I see it spilling over into desire to possess toys--but she still doesn't have the desire to carry or retrieve like many other high-prey dogs.

To the original poster: What you describe sounds very normal to me, as far as herding with my GSDs. One of the greatest challenges of herding gathering style with a GSD is gaining control of that drive and getting them to give the sheep more space. Sounds like you're going through a normal training stage. If you train boundary work, that can be easier for your dog because it is a bit more black-white (which GSDs like) rather than asking your dog to work in drive gathering the sheep but to continually self-regulate speed and push and the urge to chase.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

GSD2- Wow. I didn't know that. Ok..I will stop playing with the laser light. Its tarted when I was playing with my cat and she took off after it. But, after hearing your story, I am definitely putting it away! Thanks so much!!

Blackthorn- thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, my girl has always had a natural retrieve even at 8 weeks old and she loves to play. Sometimes, my obed. or agility instructor will have me use a play object instead of food if we need a high reward behavior!

Interesting about your comment with boundary work. It does sound black and white which *may* be easier for her if she really does have herding instinct in there.

This last lesson when she was on a long leash simulating being free we spent most of the time correcting her and I know that couldn't have been fun for her.

When you guys started your dogs did they show aggression towards the sheep?

If I try to do boundary with her now will she be confused as we have been working on get around, etc?

Thanks again....


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Like others have said, your dog is still very young and playful. It sounds a lot like what Stosh and I went through at the very early stages of training but he has learned to work rather than get excited and want to play and chase the sheep. I know it seams as though you're correcting her constantly and at this stage you have to. As long as she wants to get back in with the sheep she's having fun. Stosh has never been aggressive towards the sheep but he did try to move them by pushing them with his chest at first.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Blackthorn....Christine, over the years how many DDR dogs have you seen with bigtime prey? I have seen more people with dogs that they thought was big time prey and really only moderate prey than I have seen DDR dogs with bigtime prey. And I started with DDR dogs in mid nineties when they first came to states. Not disputing your dog, wasn't aware this was normal for DDR like say Belgium dogs or W working.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Blackthorn....Christine, over the years how many DDR dogs have you seen with bigtime prey? I have seen more people with dogs that they thought was big time prey and really only moderate prey than I have seen DDR dogs with bigtime prey. And I started with DDR dogs in mid nineties when they first came to states. Not disputing your dog, wasn't aware this was normal for DDR like say Belgium dogs or W working.


Hey Cliff...

I don't think I expressed myself well. I don't think most DDR dogs have really high prey drive. I was kind of poking at the definition of "bigtime prey drive" being the desire to kill something as opposed to playing with it.

This DDR girl I have definitely has intense prey/kill drive--she will "hunt" the cats from the front yard (attached to the house) for hours if she's in the yard. She's broken two storm windows because the cat walked into the kitchen (so she can look into that room through the windows on the front porch, which is enclosed in the yard). But this girl has very low object drive--low drive for toys, balls, things that don't have a heartbeat and aren't actual prey. I just find it very strange to deal with--but I suppose it wouldn't be so unfamiliar if I had ever had dogs like, say, huskies or sighthounds!

I have had German/Belgian line working GSDs for a number of years--I am pretty sure I know what *high* prey drive is.  And I don't really think this DDR girl is high prey--in fact, when stimulated by, say, a moving rag or tug (a flirt pole, for example), I'd say her prey is about a 6/10. When faced with a dead object, I'd say about 2/10. When faced with living prey, she's probably around 8/10.

I'm just still trying to figure out how to fit her into my worldview of GSDs and drive functions.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just a note, I'm surprised you don't have your HIC already. I know we didn't train for it, we went to a place that did train dogs, got into the pen with 3 sheep, and the instructor saw if the dog had it or not. My boy chased the sheep like you describe your girl doing and then when he finally corralled them in the corner, he "went" for one of them. The instructor of course stopped him with the leash right away, but my boy is half DDR/west and she said he showed excellent instinct just needed to work on his "teamwork."

Mine was a little over a year when we took him because we wanted him to mature a little bit before he got into a pen with sheep. If I lived closer to that farm, I'd definitely be taking him to herding class but we just live too far to make it worth while.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Christine, I see your point...my reference to "bigtime" prey was in reference to the OP's concern about the prey level of their dog. We are on the same page about DDR dogs, you know that. I KNOW you know about prey with the dogs you have owned. Also, many of the older DDR lines do go back to great herding dogs though they were more tending type then the BC type. Thanks for you clarification.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi, guys! Well, I talked to a couple people in my comp. obed class tonight that herd. They told me to keep at it. One of the women said the dam of her current stud actually KILLED a sheep when she first started. Now, she has 3 herding titles.

They said that the "killer instinct" can usually be channeled...especially with smart dogs. Another told me her cattle dog created a bloodbath when he first started and he went on to get herding titles as well.

They said better high drive than a soft dog. One of the woman said that her collie can literally walk up to the sheep's face and they just ignore it. She said he is tough to train. My girl makes them back up 10 feet with 2 steps towards them and they don't budge. Of course, they probably know she is pondering trying to eat them (though I am sure it is a conflicting thought for her as she doesn't have a kill drive per se).

My girl hasn't bitten, yet, with the intent to kill so I think I will just plug along and work on trying to control instinct to chase. My instructor says that's what kills the most sheep...being chased into a fence. I am hoping because my girl is SO biddable that with time we can figure it out.

Like someone said, as long as she wants to get back in the sheep pen than I will keep going. If she starts to sour than that's it. I do find it comforting that she got a lot of pressure in terms of corrections and even a strong physical correction (a solid smack on head with rake that I could hear from a distance( and yet responded by listening but didn't shut down or start to quit). She just said, oh, ok, I'll listen and then kept working.

Thus, please wish us luck. I'll keep trying.....

Thanks again for comments!!!


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

She sounds like she is doing very well, to me. She is controllable and hasn't shown a desire to maul or kill.

To me, a dog that has too much prey drive to herd is one that is out of control and wants to kill. I've had those ... can't seem to train that out of them and too risky to put them on livestock IMO.

Now, the ones like your girl (and my 3) are the ones that want to follow, chase, or circle but not necessarily go in "for the kill" (if you know what I mean). They are based more on play drive or curiosity. Prey drive really is the desire to chase, attack, and kill. Extreme prey drive is not what I'd consider your girl. 

Just my two cents 

I think your girl sounds nice. I'd keep at it.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Thanks, Ramage, for taking the time to post and share your opinion!!


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## SpookyShepherd (Oct 12, 2010)

Hi there! I have one of Christine's pups (Blackthorn GSDs) and she introduced me to herding... and now I'm hooked and so is Piper. Piper was introduced to sheep using four in a round pen. She was supposed to stay outside the pen while I was in it with the sheep but dived under/through the panels and was running the sheep. We were able to get some downs while chasing/herding over the course of a couple sessions. What's really starting to click for Piper is working in a chute with goats. We're channeling her need to work around the animals and she's learned to go around/behind them through the chute. When we do work the sheep it's on a long line and staying far enough away so Piper doesn't feel the need to dive in and go after them. It's definitely been a huge eye opener for me, great learning experience. And hopefully we'll title some day!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Isn't it fun?? We went to our first trial last weekend and Stosh qualified in the HT. Sounds like Piper is well on her way. You can see a lot of HT trials on You Tube so you can see the pattern.


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## SpookyShepherd (Oct 12, 2010)

Stosh, I LOVE herding! And I totally blame Christine... great dog, great new hobby, awesome people... hehehe, it's all her fault. :tongue: Oh, and based on her recommendation, we're doing Rally too which has really helped with the teamwork aspect of both sports.

It is pretty amazing to watch the difference between a GSD herding style and a BC herding style.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

We competed in our first trial last weekend and there were so many breeds- a Schnauzer won high in trial! There was a Briard, Bearded Collie, Smooth Collie, a couple of Belgian Shepherds and Terveruns, Stosh was the only gsd. The biggest difference is the gsds tendency to circle rather than do the crouching walk up thing the BCs do. There's a good book called "Herding Dogs" by Vergil Holland and he talks about different breeds and what they do. It's worth reading. 

We took an agility class during the summer because it's just too hot to herd here and that really helped with the teamwork. I'm not crazy about agility so maybe I'll give rally a try this summer. 
Cindy


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