# URGENT please, need specific's re: diagnostics (fear Hemangio), Vet tomorrow a.m.



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

So. I think Gator is very sick. We have an appointment Wed. June 4 in the a.m. As noted in title, I fear the worst. Not sure if it's b/c of everything I have read here regarding HS and I am seeing similarities (or maybe I'm wrong), maybe I am just being neurotic/paranoid and this is an infection.

Naturally when I booked the app. the Vet wasn't available to discuss what testing I could be looking at, as well $$$ for.

I did ask the receptionist to book a time slot that could include x-rays as I don't want to reschedule for. They don't anesthetize for (that's a plus) 

I got a cup off her to bring in a urine sample.

First, I know I will need to do a CBC, and Chem:

What specifically should be the add-on to this, CBC + reticulocytes (?) - what abnormality could be found in a CBC?
What Chem screen? In anyones exp. what abnormality would be found in this panel that may point to cancer?

On to x-rays. Looking from bowel to heart (lungs I am concerned with, and/or heart as symptoms could be related). How many need to be taken? 

I do NOT have an unlimited amount of money. I have to be extremely careful for what and on what I am paying for. Choices have to be made and I don't know this vet and I don't want to get caught up in emotion at the time as I have in past. I could be wiped out ($$$), find nothing and have nothing for further tests.

Thank you in advance

 P.S. I'm scared


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

GatorBytes said:


> So. I think Gator is very sick. We have an appointment Wed. June 4 in the a.m. As noted in title, I fear the worst. Not sure if it's b/c of everything I have read here regarding HS and I am seeing similarities (or maybe I'm wrong), maybe I am just being neurotic/paranoid and this is an infection.
> 
> Naturally when I booked the app. the Vet wasn't available to discuss what testing I could be looking at, as well $$$ for.
> 
> ...


What are his symptoms?

Carmspack Gus


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Oh, right.

He is having breathing problems in morning, sounds like fluids (seemed to go away after a.m. walk)
Monday, a couple hrs. later the breathing was heavy through nose/throat (if that makes sense), as in I could hear it w/o having to put my ear to him
nausea - no vomiting, but seems like slight regurgitation or reflux (with or w/o food), swallowing and licking lips.
No exercise tolerance, seems weak, in pain.
Sometimes lethargy when time to go out.

There's more, but can't think

Still excellent appetite, Still rambunctious greeting at door.
Still wants to kill kitties

Um...
That face, when they put their ears back and look at you sad, when it is usually the happiest time (like going for walk) for him


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

For Jaeger, we did bloodwork and a urinalysis, which both came back clear and showed no signs of cancer. We then moved on to the ultrasound and chest X-rays, and that gave us the diagnosis.
I will keep my fingers crossed that it's nothing too serious.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

If he is so sick and is having trouble breathing and seems to be in pain, why are you waiting to take him in? I would have taken him in immediately.

Also, if you have limited funds, maybe you should look into getting a credit card. I got a credit card for emergencies incase something ever happened to one of my animals, it has a $10,000 limit.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

LaRen616 said:


> If he is so sick and is having trouble breathing and seems to be in pain, why are you waiting to take him in? I would have taken him in immediately.
> 
> Also, if you have limited funds, maybe you should look into getting a credit card. I got a credit card for emergencies incase something ever happened to one of my animals, it has a $10,000 limit.


 B/C he is breathing, just seems to be heavy, like if you have a cold.
He is aging, arthritis could be the pain I'm seeing along with joint damage from the pit bull attack a month ago. Comes and goes. It's also extremely hot and humid and in past 3 yrs has shown lethargy on walks in heat waves. 

If I could, I would. Life. 
Thanks.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

duenorth said:


> For Jaeger, we did bloodwork and a urinalysis, which both came back clear and showed no signs of cancer. We then moved on to the ultrasound and chest X-rays, and that gave us the diagnosis.
> I will keep my fingers crossed that it's nothing too serious.


 Thanks Cheryl


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

Our first shepherd girl many moons ago had this cancer. She was my running partner and started limping. I brought her in thinking she hurt her leg running. The vets first thought a tick disease. She had pale gums. Xrays didn't show anything, blood work was ok. Ultrasound showed a small mass in spleen/liver.
We scheduled a surgery and when we brought her in she had lost weight in just a few days. When they operated they found it had spread all over and we put her to sleep then.

She didn't show lethargy nor did she have heavy breathing. Just the limp, and pale gums. 

I hope your pup is fine.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

sounds like chf


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

No pale gums here. Not yet. 

Something else, not sure if significant. There are a few area's on his skin that have these little tiny rust coloured dots. At first thought some type of parasite, not itchy or bothered by. Not raised, or scabby, not flea dirt...dime size area, but in 3 area's that I found, shoulder area.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> sounds like chf


chf?..edit: ugh, never mind, congestive heart failure. dah.

Brought on by HS?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

congestive heart failure


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> congestive heart failure


 Yep. Can see that in this link, except no coughing (but that doesn't mean rules out, as not all symptoms area present in all dogs)

Dog Congestive Heart Failure Symptoms, Treatments, Causes


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

an xray can help dx that
aging can bring that on


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Early symptoms of HS would have him recovering from small bleeds each time. Bleeds become. Bleeds become progressively worse and much more noticeable. They become. anemic and low on platelets. Then bleeds can start anywhere including lungs but this would be very near to the end..

Floyd was diagnosed by symptoms and blood work. 

Carmspack Gus


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> an xray can help dx that
> aging can bring that on


 
He has always checked out well on heart rate. In fact all vets have said Wow, has really good strong heart. 

Other then CHF or HS...parasites? He had ate cat poop awhile ago, treating for parasites. Lung flukes? What could he have got from a cat?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would have bloodwork done. Discuss Chem10 vs. Chem 17. CBC to check for infection. Chest xray to look for abnormalities possibly tumors depending on blood work results. 

Really, I think you are better off discussing with your vet the needed testing based on the exam. Of course, I trust my vet 100% which helps in that.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Saphire said:


> Early symptoms of HS would have him recovering from small bleeds each time. Bleeds become. Bleeds become progressively worse and much more noticeable. *They become. anemic and low on platelets. Then bleeds can start anywhere including lungs but this would be very near to the end..
> *
> Floyd was diagnosed by symptoms and blood work.
> 
> Carmspack Gus


 K. This is what I'm looking for in blood work? Gums are good. He is having bowel issues too (re: prior post)

I had read a post on another thread about HS had taken the dog via the lungs. This is what got me thinking about it. Then Duenorth's post about the Mass in bowel.

That is why I am thinking x-rays bowel to heart. At $150 for set up and 1st film and then $75 a shot, going to add up. Bloods and exam are going to run at least $250

If HS and has metastasized to liver, would there be any significance in values


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I would have bloodwork done. Discuss Chem10 vs. Chem 17. CBC to check for infection. Chest xray to look for abnormalities possibly tumors depending on blood work results.
> 
> Really, I think you are better off discussing with your vet the needed testing based on the exam. Of course, I trust my vet 100% which helps in that.


 I don't know this vet. Couldn't get an app. with one I wanted to go to for a month who also a chiro.

I don't want to get caught up in tier testing. Don't have the money to get for example a blood test that costs $100, to find an anomaly then they say, well we can do a more specific test which is the exact same with inclusion of...like what I posted about reticulocytes (young blood cells). Not offered in an CBC, a CBC+


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok but without examining him nobody can really recommend the proper diagnostics. If he's having problems breathing then a chest xray may be the place to start BUT do you really need a chem17 for all values when what you really want is a basic organ function test. I think you waste more money by jumping into higher level testing than starting with the basics. Or at least that is my experience.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Personally I would want him seen today...somewhere by some vet. Call around and find a vet that can see him immediately. He is not a young dog and even the most simple of illness can quickly go bad with a senior dog.

Carmspack Gus


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Saphire said:


> Personally I would want him seen today...somewhere by some vet. Call around and find a vet that can see him immediately. He is not a young dog and even the most simple of illness can quickly go bad with a senior dog.
> 
> Carmspack Gus



Agreed. Seniors can turn very quickly.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

GatorBytes,

I am sorry to hear Gator isn't feeling well. I don't have any experience or suggestions but the information in this link may help. Hemangiosarcoma in dogs
I think suggesting HS may be a bit of a leap although I can understand your fears. The thought of losing our best friend is beyond expression.

Sorry I'm no help but know that you and Gator will be in our prayers.

Lynn & Traveler


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Saphire said:


> Personally I would want him seen today...somewhere by some vet. Call around and find a vet that can see him immediately. He is not a young dog and even the most simple of illness can quickly go bad with a senior dog.
> 
> Carmspack Gus


 Taking to this Vet b/c she is most recommended "Shepherd" vet. This is a Shepherd town. She owns a white one. I have talked to several people with and they all go to her. I have first available app. 

The e-vet is an option, but half hr. away. Too hot out for him for the drive, and don't think he can jump up into truck. I can cab it to town vet if need to later today, but not until 5 close to closing (6pm). Tuesday is surgery day or he'd be there already. Wouldn't be fasted blood work and wouldn't have proper urine sample.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

GatorBytes my thoughts and prayers are with you and Gator. I have no advice sounds like you have some solid ideas of what to ask for and youve asked here where lots of people with experience are. Daisy's tumour was on the heart and by the time we found it was pressing on the lungs.This was at the very end Your ideas for xray sound right to me. Take care 
Maggi


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Traveler's Mom said:


> GatorBytes,
> 
> I am sorry to hear Gator isn't feeling well. I don't have any experience or suggestions but the information in this link may help. Hemangiosarcoma in dogs
> I think suggesting HS may be a bit of a leap although I can understand your fears. The thought of losing our best friend is beyond expression.
> ...


 Thank you Lynn. Just seems to be at the age for. Whatever is wrong, I don't think it's going to be a simple fix.



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> GatorBytes my thoughts and prayers are with you and Gator. I have no advice sounds like you have some solid ideas of what to ask for and youve asked here where lots of people with experience are. Daisy's tumour was on the heart and by the time we found it was pressing on the lungs.This was at the very end Your ideas for xray sound right to me. Take care
> Maggi


 Thank you Maggi. I hope I am wrong. 

Was also thinking this could be a reaction to pesticides people are putting on their lawns. No test for that that I could find


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Hoping you are wrong too and its an easy fix .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

In my dogs who had hemangio pale gums was the give away and breathing was more like fast panting not struggling to breath.

I hope you get a workable answer. It also sounds like CHF to me. Is there any swelling in the legs/paws? I agree..money or not...I would not waste any time getting to the vet...but I see you ARE going tomorrow am.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

So sorry that Gator isn't feeling well. As you have read, I'm sure, hemangio can affect multiple organs and symptoms seem to be a bit different depending on what's affected. When Basu became sick with hemangio he went from a turbo-charged dog to a dog who could not walk around the block and had no appetite. Then the next day he was absolutely fine and then same symptoms came back two days later. He did not have breathing problems but it was his spleen that was affected. The only diagnostics he needed was an x-ray.

I hope that Gator doesn't have hemangio. Sending all positive thoughts his way.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> In my dogs who had hemangio pale gums was the give away and breathing was more like fast panting not struggling to breath.
> 
> I hope you get a workable answer. It also sounds like CHF to me. Is there any swelling in the legs/paws? I agree..money or not...I would not waste any time getting to the vet...but I see you ARE going tomorrow am.


 Just checked gums again. Fine, colour comes back immediate. He is panting here and there, have the A/C on. May be due to walk time nearing. He gets panty when he has to go.

No swelling.

He isn't lethargic when you say treat.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> So sorry that Gator isn't feeling well. As you have read, I'm sure, hemangio can affect multiple organs and symptoms seem to be a bit different depending on what's affected. When Basu became sick with hemangio he went from a turbo-charged dog to a dog who could not walk around the block and had no appetite. Then the next day he was absolutely fine and then same symptoms came back two days later. He did not have breathing problems but it was his spleen that was affected. The only diagnostics he needed was an x-ray.
> 
> I hope that Gator doesn't have hemangio. Sending all positive thoughts his way.


 Thank you.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I just checking his nose, Right side has some mucous, his right eye last couple days as well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GatorBytes said:


> Just checked gums again. Fine, colour comes back immediate. He is panting here and there, have the A/C on. May be due to walk time nearing. He gets panty when he has to go.
> 
> No swelling.
> 
> He isn't lethargic when you say treat.


When mine had a bleed her gums and tongue were almost white -- it was very very very obvious. I do hope you get a good answer tomorrow.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

LaRen616 said:


> If he is so sick and is having trouble breathing and seems to be in pain, why are you waiting to take him in? I would have taken him in immediately.
> 
> Also, if you have limited funds, maybe you should look into getting a credit card. I got a credit card for emergencies incase something ever happened to one of my animals, it has a $10,000 limit.


 LaRen, I just want to clarify something here 

When I first got Gator and during the first few yrs. of ownership I had $100,000 in credit. Owned a business, worked from home. 

Stuff happens, hopefully good fortune is always at your door.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> When mine had a bleed her gums and tongue were almost white -- it was very very very obvious. I do hope you get a good answer tomorrow.


 
O.K. Thank you, feel a bit better.

Maybe this is a respiratory infection.

I wonder if this is related to pit bull attack? either the dog slamming into G's chest or maybe one of the two guys kicked him and I missed it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

GatorBytes said:


> I just checking his nose, Right side has some mucous, his right eye last couple days as well.


Pneumonia? If so, I would want to get him into the vet today.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> I wonder if this is related to pit bull attack? either the dog slamming into G's chest or maybe one of the two guys kicked him and I missed it.


I think that would be stretching it a bit.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

If you think it's any kind of respiratory infection then you want to get him into the vet today and start treatment. older dogs can go downhill really fast.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Lilie said:


> I think that would be stretching it a bit.


 No, not really, not according to this

Shallow breathing is seen in dogs with broken ribs and severe bruising of the chest wall. Blood, pus, or serum in the chest cavity (called pleural effusion)restricts breathing by interfering with the range of motion of the chest and expansion of the lungs. A dog with shallow breathing compensates by breathing more rapidly.

Dog Breathing Problems: Wheezing, Breathing Fast or Heavy, and More

The pit bull attack is the only source of trauma, if trauma were the cause


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Look, speculating is going to get you nowhere except more anxious. And more anxiety is not going to help Gator. Take him into the vet right now so that you can get a diagnosis and figure out where to go from there. You will forever regret waiting if he takes a turn for the worse before tomorrow morning.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> Dog Breathing Problems: Wheezing, Breathing Fast or Heavy, and More
> 
> The pit bull attack is the only source of trauma, if trauma were the cause


That happened over a month ago. If you truly think your pups inability to breath and pain is sourced from an incident a month ago - then you truly need to rush him to the e-vet NOW!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> If you think it's any kind of respiratory infection then you want to get him into the vet today and start treatment. older dogs can go downhill really fast.


 At this time he does not seem in distress, He doesn't seem in distress in morning when sounds fluidy. Heat seems to be an issue on walks. Night walk he is always much better. Monday seemed sickly which is what prompted me to make the Vet app. Nothing has happened since that has made me feel urgency to rush him to e-vet. I am with him, not going anywhere out of his site


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I am so sorry for you..and afraid...the big C scares all of us..and is the first conclusion we come to..either for our dog family or ourselves...keep your faith..stay strong..and don't let your mind take you where fear is the only option...pull on your faith..love your dog...(I know you do)...and try to find peace of mind til tomorrow...PLEASE KNOW YOU ARE IN THE THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS OF MANY... Blessings...jan


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Not to sound to caviler but what about allergies? I'm wheezy, have goopy eyes and don't feel much like doing anything. All the pollen in the air is terrible.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Have not read all responses, so sorry if I am repeating something. 

CBC- red and white cell count, will tell you if there is an infection and anemia or dehydration, plus will let you know if and what white cells are elevated which can point to different issues. Do it. 

Chemistry- never hurts, will tell you is there is a problem in most major organs, not really the the spleen though. 

Radiographs- two view chest and abdomen. I would probably ask to start with lateral views if both areas and go from there. A big bleeding mass is going to be seen in that view. But they may need another. 

Special tests. Not really. But if everything comes up equivocal, then a blood smear can rule out or in blood parasites. An ultrasounds may be useful as well. They may ask to do a tap, if the suspect fluid in the abdomen, to figure out what type if fluid it is. But that should not be done until radiographs are taken. 

In my area, MD, this basic run of blood work and radiographs with exam is going to run you about 400 bucks. 






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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> B/C he is breathing, just seems to be heavy, like if you have a cold.
> He is aging, arthritis could be the pain I'm seeing along with joint damage from the pit bull attack a month ago. Comes and goes. It's also extremely hot and humid and in past 3 yrs has shown lethargy on walks in heat waves.
> 
> If I could, I would. Life.
> Thanks.


gator, first thing i thought of was a cardiac issue as the lungs have fluid in them. could also be a upper resp. a few other issues come to mind also. i wouldn't think ca but anything is possible. might want to give up walks in hot humid weather. i could also come up with a few simple things it could be, but why guess. see what the vet has to say. i would start simple with just a chem and cbc and proceed from there based on results. a cxr sounds like it would be clear by the time you get there, but vet should listen to heart and lungs.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Not to sound to caviler but what about allergies? I'm wheezy, have goopy eyes and don't feel much like doing anything. All the pollen in the air is terrible.


good post! everyone seems to jump the gun and assume the worst, i always start with ruling out the simple things, but again i would not guess, i would just see the vet. that being said fluid in the lungs is a serious issue. do you use a stethoscope gator ?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Have not read all responses, so sorry if I am repeating something.
> 
> CBC- red and white cell count, will tell you if there is an infection and anemia or dehydration, plus will let you know if and what white cells are elevated which can point to different issues. Do it.
> 
> ...


 Bolded - do you mean two each? or two "to view" chest and abdominal, lateral and other. What about heart?

In my area (going on quote from 3 yrs. ago - diff vet, but called around and variance of 10$ per), 150 for 1st, 75 per thereafter, so looking at 400 just for xrays. Exam is 85, blood work for both CBC and chem is another 200+

Thank you for reply


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Not to sound to caviler but what about allergies? I'm wheezy, have goopy eyes and don't feel much like doing anything. All the pollen in the air is terrible.


 
Sure. I did mention a few posts back that could be related to lawn pesticides. IDK. Don't think can test for.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

gator start small, you don't need a cxr until after vet listens to heart. if he thinks a heart issue, then discuss x-ray. keep in mind could be a cold or allergies.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree with possible allergies, my vet said this is the WORST year ever, for pollen, breathing related allergies, everything coming out late, and in full force.

I just did a super chem on one of my dogs, cost was 150$, that includes a cbc+ .

Hope it's nothing serious.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

GatorBytes said:


> Bolded - do you mean two each? or two "to view" chest and abdominal, lateral and other. What about heart?
> 
> In my area (going on quote from 3 yrs. ago - diff vet, but called around and variance of 10$ per), 150 for 1st, 75 per thereafter, so looking at 400 just for xrays. Exam is 85, blood work for both CBC and chem is another 200+
> 
> Thank you for reply



Sorry, yes, a Two view is generally a lateral and VD view of an area. But you can start with just a lateral or just a VD and go from there. 

I do agree that you should go for the exam first. Let the vet listen to the heart and lungs and do an abdominal palpation and go from there. If they only hear upper respiratory noise, then all this may be moot. 


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> gator, first thing i thought of was a cardiac issue as the lungs have fluid in them. could also be a upper resp. a few other issues come to mind also. i wouldn't think ca but anything is possible. might want to give up walks in hot humid weather. i could also come up with a few simple things it could be, but why guess. see what the vet has to say. i would start simple with just a chem and cbc and proceed from there based on results. a cxr sounds like it would be clear by the time you get there, but vet should listen to heart and lungs.


 
I def want a cbc and chem. Partly to do with issue at hand and b/c he is aging and I want to maximize the vet visit. Urine test is my call w/o talking to vet. I want kidney values, liver values etc.

He gets walked 3x a day. 7am (630 on work days), again at either 2pm or 4pm depending on need, me, kids getting out of school (I can't stand the screaming, running, skateboards, bikes etc...lol), work. Then again around 830-9pm. I have been limiting his afternoon walk to just a stroll down the street, a poop and lay in the shade for 5-10mins. and home. I allow sun to move for shade on deck and we hang outside for better part of the eve until I have to do stuff for him and me.

He has to walk to poop. won't in the yard


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Have them double check for deep ear infection, along with the chest congestion.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Sorry, yes, a Two view is generally a lateral and VD view of an area. But you can start with just a lateral or just a VD and go from there.
> 
> I do agree that you should go for the exam first. Let the vet listen to the heart and lungs and do an abdominal palpation and go from there. *If they only hear upper respiratory noise, then all this may be moot.
> *
> ...


 Couldn't it mean HS or other cancer of lungs?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> gator start small, you don't need a cxr until after vet listens to heart. if he thinks a heart issue, then discuss x-ray. keep in mind could be a cold or allergies.


 
There in lies the problem. Cold find nothing with diagnostics, doesn't mean he isn't sick...Too many times and too many times on this forum they call things allergies, take this pill and come back in two weeks.

I just have a sick sense that there is more going on

What's a cxr


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Sorry, yes, a Two view is generally a lateral and VD view of an area. But you can start with just a lateral or just a VD and go from there.
> 
> I do agree that you should go for the exam first. Let the vet listen to the heart and lungs and do an abdominal palpation and go from there. If they only hear upper respiratory noise, then all this may be moot.
> 
> ...


 
Excuse my ignorance (sheepish)
Two view abdomen
Two view Chest...what about heart?

Oh, doesn't seem to be fluid build up in ab. FWIW. 

Yes, will let the vet feel him up, see what they suggest, just want a handle on this ($) wise, as they could wipe me out, and if worst could happen, I won't be...well...sigh

Thank you


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jang said:


> I am so sorry for you..and afraid...the big C scares all of us..and is the first conclusion we come to..either for our dog family or ourselves...keep your faith..stay strong..and don't let your mind take you where fear is the only option...pull on your faith..love your dog...(I know you do)...and try to find peace of mind til tomorrow...PLEASE KNOW YOU ARE IN THE THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS OF MANY... Blessings...jan


 jan. always, thank you



JakodaCD OA said:


> I also agree with possible allergies, my vet said this is the WORST year ever, for pollen, breathing related allergies, everything coming out late, and in full force.
> 
> I just did a super chem on one of my dogs, cost was 150$, that includes a cbc+ .
> 
> Hope it's nothing serious.


 I got quotes in that range, chem I, II, III, 6, chem incl. cbc, w/o cbc...Why I started the thread. Dizzying.

Thank you. What is a super chem lol....chem 17 jax08 said may not be necessary?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

GatorBytes said:


> Excuse my ignorance (sheepish)
> Two view abdomen
> Two view Chest...what about heart?
> 
> ...



The heart is in the chest. So a chest film would get the heart. 

If they only hear upper respiratory, but the lungs are clear, HS is less likely. The most common places for HS are the spleen and heart. If he has a "cold" an upper respiratory, meaning nose, trachea, then it's not in his lungs. All things considered. 


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> The heart is in the chest. So a chest film would get the heart.
> 
> If they only hear upper respiratory, but the lungs are clear, HS is less likely. The most common places for HS are the spleen and heart. If he has a "cold" an upper respiratory, meaning nose, trachea, then it's not in his lungs. All things considered.
> 
> ...


 
ahhh...lol, I know how dumb that sounded (heart in chest), I was thinking chest/lungs...sigh.

See what happens tomorrow.


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> If he is so sick and is having trouble breathing and seems to be in pain, why are you waiting to take him in? I would have taken him in immediately.
> 
> Also, if you have limited funds, maybe you should look into getting a credit card. I got a credit card for emergencies incase something ever happened to one of my animals, it has a $10,000 limit.


This is terribly judgmental and smacks of no sympathy whatsoever. Not everyone is seemingly as fortunate as you are.

My prayers are with you and your pup, OP.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Also do a Snap 4 to check HW and tick basics.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Audie1 said:


> This is terribly judgmental and smacks of no sympathy whatsoever. Not everyone is seemingly as fortunate as you are.
> 
> My prayers are with you and your pup, OP.


 
Thank you for the prayers and thank you


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Also thought of - fecal - starting simple, because whips and others can do a major number on a dog and we don't know they have anything wrong. I had a foster puppy coughing - round worms in the lungs. And my vet has a lot of stories about whips.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

GatorBytes, I'm hoping you're wrong. Big hugs for you and best wishes for Gator!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Audie1 said:


> This is terribly judgmental and smacks of no sympathy whatsoever. Not everyone is seemingly as fortunate as you are.
> 
> My prayers are with you and your pup, OP.


How is what I said judgmental? 

If the dog is having issues, isn't breathing properly and is in pain, why wait to take him into the Vet? Other members also commented about how they think he should have been taken into the Vet right away but I am the bad guy. 

My comment about getting a credit card is because it is a really good idea. I do not have the funds to pay for an emergency if something were to happen to one of my animals and that is why I got a credit card, incase there is an emergency. I live alone, own a house and make $1 an hour (not really) so I don't have lots of money sitting around.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

not every qualifies for a credit card.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Audie1 said:


> This is terribly judgmental and smacks of no sympathy whatsoever. Not everyone is seemingly as fortunate as you are.
> 
> My prayers are with you and your pup, OP.


Sadly, sympathy will not save a dog's life. It is important to remember that the OP is worried about her dog's health. The OP stated her dog was seriously ill, with labored breathing and she stated the dog was in pain. It isn't always in the best interest of a dog to seek medical attention on line for a dog who is seriously ill.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Also do a Snap 4 to check HW and tick basics.


 On the list



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Also thought of - fecal - starting simple, because whips and others can do a major number on a dog and we don't know they have anything wrong. I had a foster puppy coughing - round worms in the lungs. And my vet has a lot of stories about whips.


 Yes, that! I just came back from walk, got his urine and poop. 
My thoughts were this could also be the issue. He had fleas back in Nov. ate cat poop sometime in winter, starting going off his food a couple months after that. Weird things started happening, did parasite cleanse and sure a round came out, or whip, could not tell (eyes not so great. sigh). There are some domestic cats and feral lurking around the property as my upstairs neighbour leaves food out for them. Have seen one cat use the lawn outside my kitchen window. I p/u, but he snagged a frozen one when my neighbour was talking to me.

However, no cough.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

blackshep said:


> GatorBytes, I'm hoping you're wrong. Big hugs for you and best wishes for Gator!


 Thank you


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lilie said:


> Sadly, sympathy will not save a dog's life. It is important to remember that the OP is worried about her dog's health. The OP stated her dog was seriously ill, with labored breathing and she stated the dog was in pain. It isn't always in the best interest of a dog to seek medical attention on line for a dog who is seriously ill.


I took the original post to read "an appointment is scheduled to-morrow" and asking for ideas to discuss with the veterinarian. NOT , "Well, I don't want to go to the vet so how do I dance around here"I have found that is a great way to use forum insights.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

LaRen616 said:


> If he is so sick and is having trouble breathing and seems to be in pain, why are you waiting to take him in? I would have taken him in immediately.
> 
> Also, if you have limited funds, maybe you should look into getting a credit card. I got a credit card for emergencies incase something ever happened to one of my animals, it has a $10,000 limit.


 It's all in the delivery. If she said "I'm sorry your dog is sick, perhaps if he is in that much distress...then maybe you should go sooner then later."

It sounds condescending...when you start off with "If" or Well 
We all know that one neg. comment can send a thread in whole other direction then it's purpose for starting it...then they get locked.



Lilie said:


> Sadly, sympathy will not save a dog's life. It is important to remember that the OP is worried about her dog's health. The OP stated her dog was seriously ill, with labored breathing and she stated the dog was in pain. It isn't always in the best interest of a dog to seek medical attention on line for a dog who is seriously ill.


 I am not going to begrudge getting support and well wishes. However, I started a thread asking for advice on diagnostics b/c I have limited funds and wanted to maximize those funds...Not "if" I should take him, or "when" he was already scheduled

I said I think he is very sick...b/c of a)this forum and HS, and b)he has never been a truly healthy dog. c)his age

I'm perfectly capable of assessing whether my dog needed to go ASAP


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Of course you think you are competent regarding your dog's care. But when you post on a public board that the dog seemingly is having a sudden onset of what seems to be serious issues some of us will wonder why your vet couldn't see him sooner.
Couching "why wait" with flowers & hiding it under "suggestions" --- it gets lost. 
If it is hemangio, your options are few and expensive. (Been there) If your vet is good, s/he can tell pretty quickly.
Hope your suspicions are incorrect, that it is something easily corrected, cheaply diagnosed and inexpensive. AND that you are spot on about hanging on for a day to see the vet.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I took the original post to read "an appointment is scheduled to-morrow" and asking for ideas to discuss with the veterinarian. NOT , "Well, I don't want to go to the vet so how do I dance around here"I have found that is a great way to use forum insights.


This is how I took it as well.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I took the original post to read "an appointment is scheduled to-morrow" and asking for ideas to discuss with the veterinarian. NOT , "Well, I don't want to go to the vet so how do I dance around here"I have found that is a great way to use forum insights.


I have no doubts that is exactly what the OP meant. But there is a HUGE difference in 'my dog doesn't seem to be feeling right' and 'my dog is very ill, having problems breathing and seems to be in pain'. I don't care how you'd like to sugar coat it. One calls for the e-vet and the other calls for ideas from a forum.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

The one and only time I used an e-vet I spent an 2 hours driving there in a blinding snow storm. Spent over $1500 for just that visit a ton of money on follow ups and the dog died anyway a short time later. I am unlikely to do that again. 

I believe I read in an earlier post that Gatorbytes took the first available appointment with a recommended shepherd vet, then asked for suggestions on which tests to run. That seems the sensible road to take.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> So. *I think* Gator is very sick. We have an appointment Wed. June 4 in the a.m. As noted in title, *I fear the worst. Not sure if it's b/c of everything I have read here regarding HS and I am seeing similarities (or maybe I'm wrong), maybe I am just being neurotic/paranoid and this is an infection.
> *


This is what I said. I was being pro-active by making vet app. NOT coming here to ask what I should do first.

IF it was an emergency, then he would have been in that day.
Then I said:


GatorBytes said:


> He is having *breathing problems in morning*, sounds like fluids (*seemed to go away after a.m. walk)
> Monday, a couple hrs. later the breathing was heavy through nose/throat* (if that makes sense), as in I could hear it w/o having to put my ear to him
> nausea - no vomiting, but seems like slight regurgitation or reflux (with or w/o food), swallowing and licking lips.
> No exercise tolerance, seems weak, in pain.
> ...


 I also mentioned the intolerance on walks was in the heat



Lilie said:


> I have no doubts that is exactly what the OP meant. But there is a HUGE difference in 'my dog doesn't seem to be feeling right' and 'my dog is very ill, having problems breathing and seems to be in pain'. I don't care how you'd like to sugar coat it. One calls for the e-vet and the other calls for ideas from a forum.


I guess it's how you interpret it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, the arguments start when the opinion is reiterated over and over as though only theirs is what counts.
Then threads get locked


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> The one and only time I used an e-vet I spent an 2 hours driving there in a blinding snow storm. Spent over $1500 for just that visit a ton of money on follow ups and the dog died anyway a short time later. I am unlikely to do that again.
> 
> I believe I read in an earlier post that *Gatorbytes took the first available appointment with a recommended shepherd vet*, *then asked for suggestions on which tests to run. That seems the sensible road to take*.


 Thank you!!!

On that note, I have ran the poop and urine sample over to vet already, we are off! Cross your fingers for us


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

GatorBytes said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, the arguments start when the opinion is reiterated over and over as though only theirs is what counts.
> Then threads get locked


The opinion is only reiterated over and over when you continue to argue the opinion because it doesn't fit the information you were looking for. 

You asked for advice. The advice may differ from each person. My advice, based on the fact you stated your dog was very ill, labored breathing and seemed to be in pain, was not to wait to take it to the vet. Doesn't make me wrong or right. It was simply advice. 

I'm concerned about your dog. I'm concerned about your agenda.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

People are going to do whatever they want. All a person can do is give the advice based on what they themselves would do and move on.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Keeping fingers crossed for Gator. Throwing in a few well wishes and prayers as well.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> The one and only time I used an e-vet I spent an 2 hours driving there in a blinding snow storm. Spent over $1500 for just that visit a ton of money on follow ups and the dog died anyway a short time later. I am unlikely to do that again.
> 
> I believe I read in an earlier post that Gatorbytes took the first available appointment with a recommended shepherd vet, then asked for suggestions on which tests to run. That seems the sensible road to take.


Again agree. Spent 500.00 dollars at an Evet on a Saturday told I was overreacting, dog given fluids. Monday am at a vets office told its probably an obstruction waited all day nothing happened except her vitals being off and still dehydrated.Sent to E-vet w/ the plan they would do surgery as no surgeons available. New Evet walks in says lets rule out illness . Guess what its PARVO.So $700.00 later with two visits and I finally get the right answer cause I got the right vet.I was a first time dog owner didnt know what questions to ask or what anything was including Parvo. I was lucky I spent approximately 6000.00 treating Parvo that almost killed my Daisy while an Evet told me I was overreacting.I totally understand what GatorBytes is asking about.
The second thing is what do you see as an emergency ?I do mental health triage and have been involved in mock medical triage operations in the prison system.Even w/ injuries and ilnesses ER is not the answer to everything and after the crisis is resolved referrals are made to specailists or long term treatment. From a triage Gator appears to be having issues that are long term.He has been better but he is not currently in crisis.Could he be at any moment?Absolutely.On that your right. However the EVET may not give the answers needed. His chances of getting the best diagnosis and care are probably w/ a vet who is known for her care for german shepherd and it is a way to perserve the resourses to get him help.

Here is another issue Gator is a senior who has some health problems . I have three seniors. The OP stated that they are hoping not to have to put Gator under for the X-rays.That sounds great to me as i know you all know anesthesia can be dangerouus for seniors. 

Gatorbytes and Gator sending my prayers .Hoping its something that Gator gets some meds for and shakes it off.


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## Audie1 (May 31, 2014)

Lilie said:


> I'm concerned about your agenda.


So, this person has an agenda now? I am honestly appalled at some of the responses that the OP has received.

You are not the OP. You are not in his/her home. All we know is that this person has an ill animal, is seeking advice and is visiting the vet today to hopefully get things sorted out.

If the above qualifies as an "agenda," then I am really at a loss for words.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Audie1 said:


> So, this person has an agenda now? I am honestly appalled at some of the responses that the OP has received.
> 
> You are not the OP. You are not in his/her home. All we know is that this person has an ill animal, is seeking advice and is visiting the vet today to hopefully get things sorted out.
> 
> If the above qualifies as an "agenda," then I am really at a loss for words.


For the sake of the ill pup, I won't keep you entertained by bantering back and forth with regards to you disagreeing with my opinion. I don't want this thread closed. 

However, I do welcome you to PM me if you'd like to discuss my opinons further.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I just typed a whole pile of info and hit submit. Forum database error. Lost it all. Sigh.

I'll follow up later, have to do few things.

Thank you guys for thinking about us


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

So is the dog OK?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> I just typed a whole pile of info and hit submit. Forum database error. Lost it all. Sigh.


I've learned when that happens, to hit the back button. The data you entered is still there, hit submit. At least that is how it works for me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I did ER triage for years and years....including at U of Pa Vet School a long time ago....

He is a senior with issues...not necessarily an emergency.....if he has congestive heart failure or hemangio, and is not in high distress or has not collapsed, a visit the next day is not out of order....

If he has hemangio - it is very very expensive to treat - I know of only 3 dogs who had surgery ($2000 - 4000 range) and survived longer than 10 days to a month.....the surgery is hard on them, and I would not do it to another dog whose history indicated an ongoing problem....if congestive heart failure, a simple exam with stethoscope and an x-ray will diagnose it, and treatment is usually medications...for your sake, I hope it is the latter.....if the first, regardless if you have the resources to pay for surgery or not.....letting them go at this age is really the easiest for them 99% of the time...

Sorry......

Lee


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Good post Lee.

GB, I hope it's something that can be managed. Update as soon as you can


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Cara Fusinato said:


> So is the dog OK?


 There is good news and bad news (no dx.) ultrasound is suggested



Twyla said:


> I've learned when that happens, to hit the back button. The data you entered is still there, hit submit. At least that is how it works for me.


 I did. Goes back to page I typed on, but blank...grrr



blackshep said:


> Good post Lee.
> 
> GB, I hope it's something that can be managed. Update as soon as you can


 Wait on blood work. Go from there.

Going for a walk, and then I'll update later.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Xrays - 2 view abdomen looking for obvious masses, spleen and liver are most common. Also looking for free abdominal fluid as they can bleed out.

3 view chest films to look for heart based masses and metastatic nodules in the lungs. 

Roughly 250-350$ for 5 view xrays.

Blood work - CBC look for abnormalities in white count but largely just if the dog is anemic or not, as again they can bleed into their abdomen. 

Some morphology changes can be seen on a slide under the microscope with splenic disease.

Chemistry, a liver mass will throw off liver values, kidney mass will throw off kidney values. Splenic mass won't always show obvious changes.

150-250$


Abdominal ultrasound can also be performed to confirm presence of a mass as well as to obtain biopsy. Should only be done with an internist or boars certified radiologist in my honest opinion. 350-450$

Those are the tests I would perform on my own dogs and recommend to everyone

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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If the ultrasound is for an enlarged spleen, I know that is actually pretty common in GSDs wh don't have hemangiosarcoma.........we went through that with Grim. 

He ultimately did develop hemangio of his skeletal muscle but never internally and almost a year later.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

What??? What is happening???


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

gator, what specifically are they going to ultra sound?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Big hugs for you and Gator!!! I'm adding my prayers too, and hope it's just a simple thing that you're dealing with here. Aww, poor Gator my fuzzy buddy...I'm so sorry he's not well!


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Just wanted to drop by and check on Gator. Hope things go okay with him. He is a great dog. I know that Gatorbytes has been around for a long time and cares a lot about her dog. Good wishes and prayers to you both. Raina sends tail wags and sloppy dog kisses to Gator.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Hoping the best for Gator and you. Just hated seeing that he is sick. I know he holds your heart. Prayers and hope to you and Gator.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Examination Update*

To update

G had a rough go there, was not comfortable with the Vet, good with the tech though. On a scale of 1-10, I’d give a 5. More about that later.

No, x-rays were not done

The good news:
She checked his teeth, had me lift lips and she glanced at. She said no tarter, looked good but asked if he was a chewer as they look worn. He’s not (no tennis balls, rarely gets a rec bone, last time was Oct.). She thought reason for nose mucous, eye mucous (both right side) may be an abscess draining into cavity. However she didn’t open his mouth to have a good look. She dabbed a tissue at the nostrils to see if any blood. None...I do this often if has drippy nose.

She checked his pupils. Both were same size. Good, no neuro issue in relation to

Checked his ears, sort of...she asked first if he got ear infections, I said he can get yeasty in winter, I just clean them, no real issue this year. She said they looked good (didn’t tell her I swabbed coconut oil just a couple days ago as he was a bit bothered)

She felt his face, muzzle, asked if noticed any swelling. Nope. and none.
Asked if he has allergies, I said winter, not spring/summer at all and that this issue may have come on due to the pesticide/fertilizer (tis the season)

She listened to his heart and lungs. Both sides sounded equal and good on both, nothing significant. Listen to his pulse. Also good.

She felt him up (just love saying that, lol)...She palpated his organs. Said spleen, liver, pancreas, intestines were all in place. Did not feel any swelling. No reaction from Gator, no discomfort.

The bad news:
She palpated the bladder/prostate area and Gator cried out!!! She released and said, well there is def something wrong there! She went to put her hands back on him and he growled at her so she stopped (he was muzzled), poor guy. She said she couldn’t/didn’t speculate as she said also lymph nodes in that area.

She didn’t do a rectal

She feels a ultrasound is in order. Front of the house, back of the house....$1000
Of course, waiting on blood, urine results first


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

it it were me, i would assume prostate infection and treat with antibiotics if since that is where gator reacted.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> it it were me, i would assume prostate infection and treat with antibiotics if since that is where gator reacted.


 She said she couldn't pinpoint prostate or bladder, could be lymphs. After the feel up she asked if he was neutered. Doesn't that go with the question, what kind of dog is gator when booking app.?

How would he get a prostate infection?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Prostate infections and inflammation are not uncommon in male dogs. More common in intact male dogs. Though it would not explain upper respiratory issues. It could explain panting, discomfort. 

I wish she wound have done a rectal. But if Gator was freaked out...




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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would hope she could tell whether or not he was neutered??


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I would hope she could tell whether or not he was neutered??


 LOL...think she forgot to look, or maybe surprised by his reaction and then thought to ask. I would think she have looked at the notes she had the tech take prior


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Prostate infections and inflammation are not uncommon in male dogs. More common in intact male dogs. Though it would not explain upper respiratory issues. It could explain panting, discomfort.
> 
> I wish she wound have done a rectal. But if Gator was freaked out...
> 
> ...


 Could be a bladder infection too. No?
By sounds of in house urinalysis (gets sent out too), overheard, was not discussed with me really. Just that they do in house assessment as crystals can dissolve on way to lab.

Sp. gravity was 1.01 (I think I heard)
acid 6.5
trace protein
don't know turbidity and I believe no bacteria


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so are you going to use nettles and Echinacea?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

You had very through and detailed questions prior to going to vet but didn't ask detailed questions while there? 
Gator was uncomfortable so no rectal exam? I don't understand why very important basic exams were not done. could be lymph nodes, prostate or bladder infection but because it hurt the exam stopped.

Carmspack Gus


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

If that specific gravity is right, your boy is drinking waaaay too much water. Normal is 1.016-1.060. Between 1.012-1.008 is indicitive of kidney disease, lower than that and it's more indicitive of something like diabetes insipidus or psychogenic drinking. 

When my dog first started having seizures, her spec grav was 1.000. We were thinking water toxicity as a cause of seizures. It's very very abnormal to have that low of a spec grav. Hopefully you just hear it wrong. 

But if he has a bad UTI, he may be over drinking to clear out his system. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

gsdsar said:


> If that specific gravity is right, your boy is drinking waaaay too much water. Normal is 1.016-1.060. Between 1.012-1.008 is indicitive of kidney disease, lower than that and it's more indicitive of something like diabetes insipidus or psychogenic drinking.
> 
> When my dog first started having seizures, her spec grav was 1.000. We were thinking water toxicity as a cause of seizures. It's very very abnormal to have that low of a spec grav. Hopefully you just hear it wrong.
> 
> ...



Tried to edit my post, waited too long. Took a bit for my brain to catch up to what you wrote. 1.01 is the same as 1.010. Which is in that kidney problem range I gave. I would think a bad bladder infection could cause this, but generally it's a kidney issue. 

When do you get his bloodwork back?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

carmspack said:


> so are you going to use nettles and Echinacea?


 Hmmm, 

Once I get results back, going to call holistic vet, see if something I already have.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Are you going to go ahead and do the ultrasound? They can tell a lot with it.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

could be an aggressive infection involving kidney and bladder, still leaning to prostate issue due to the pain on exam.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Hmmm,
> 
> Once I get results back, going to call holistic vet, see if something I already have.


you would us holistic rather than antibiotics if indicated ?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Saphire said:


> You had very through and detailed questions prior to going to vet but didn't ask detailed questions while there?
> Gator was uncomfortable so no rectal exam? I don't understand why very important basic exams were not done. could be lymph nodes, prostate or bladder infection but because it hurt the exam stopped.
> 
> Carmspack Gus


 You got me. Don't know why rectal wasn't done, didn't occur to me till after.
Got chaotic after a bit, she was trying to end, come up with blood work quote, tech was in and out, client waiting in next room, G was agitated, whining.

Discuss blood work. I'll ask why she didn't do rectal then. And then why she feels a ultrasound...that was put on the table prior to exam FWIW


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> If that specific gravity is right, your boy is drinking waaaay too much water. Normal is 1.016-1.060. Between 1.012-1.008 is indicitive of kidney disease, lower than that and it's more indicitive of something like diabetes insipidus or psychogenic drinking.
> 
> When my dog first started having seizures, her spec grav was 1.000. We were thinking water toxicity as a cause of seizures. It's very very abnormal to have that low of a spec grav. *Hopefully you just hear it wrong.*
> 
> ...


 Hopefully!!! It was in house stick test. Gone to lab. 



gsdsar said:


> Tried to edit my post, waited too long. Took a bit for my brain to catch up to what you wrote. 1.01 is the same as 1.010. Which is in that kidney problem range I gave. I would think a bad bladder infection could cause this, but generally it's a kidney issue.
> 
> When do you get his bloodwork back?
> 
> ...


 Should have results tomorrow


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> Are you going to go ahead and do the ultrasound? They can tell a lot with it.


 Not sure. Wait on results, then going to take and get second opinion.



huntergreen said:


> could be an aggressive infection involving kidney and bladder, still leaning to prostate issue due to the pain on exam.


 Could be, may explain why he has exercise intolerance, pain in kidney's can mean pain in the back



huntergreen said:


> you would us holistic rather than antibiotics if indicated ?


 Not sure, depends on what is found


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> Those are the tests I would perform on my own dogs and recommend to everyone
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Thank you for taking the time to draft all that up for me (I edited it down for the multi-quote)



Blanketback said:


> Big hugs for you and Gator!!! I'm adding my prayers too, and hope it's just a simple thing that you're dealing with here. Aww, poor Gator my fuzzy buddy...I'm so sorry he's not well!





pyratemom said:


> Just wanted to drop by and check on Gator. Hope things go okay with him. He is a great dog. I know that Gatorbytes has been around for a long time and cares a lot about her dog. Good wishes and prayers to you both. Raina sends tail wags and sloppy dog kisses to Gator.





readaboutdogs said:


> Hoping the best for Gator and you. Just hated seeing that he is sick. I know he holds your heart. Prayers and hope to you and Gator.


 ^^^^
You guyz:wub:...just wanted to say thank you to you too before I forget and log off.

Thank you to anyone I might have missed, Thank you everyone
Going to bed now


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Well a bladder infection is preferable to some of the other possibilities! I hope he's on the med soon, ouch on the $1000 bill, boy it sure doesn't take long to run up a vet bill...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would insist on an ultra sound. A friend of mine is going thru this now..they've xrayed, medicated, done all kinds of testing, finally at an ER the other nite, they did an ultrasound, the dog has a tumor on the spleen, he's going in for a spleenectomy(sp) today..

While it isn't cheap to do testing, it gives a better picture of what's truly going on, vs waiting it out and wasting precious time..Feeling around doesn't always tell the big picture.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

blackshep said:


> Well a bladder infection is preferable to some of the other possibilities! I hope he's on the med soon, ouch on the $1000 bill, boy it sure doesn't take long to run up a vet bill...


 Blood work, urine, fecal, exam. $467.50



JakodaCD OA said:


> I would insist on an ultra sound. A friend of mine is going thru this now..they've xrayed, medicated, done all kinds of testing, finally at an ER the other nite, they did an ultrasound, the dog has a tumor on the spleen, he's going in for a spleenectomy(sp) today..
> 
> While it isn't cheap to do testing, it gives a better picture of what's truly going on, vs waiting it out and wasting precious time..Feeling around doesn't always tell the big picture.


 If we hadn't been attacked by a pit bull, then I could do an ultrasound. That's what the attack cost me ~ $1000.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Hm. Quick kijiji job search. Found two jobs in my area. Just sent resume.

Probably conflict with current job, haven't found one yet that has mon-fri only. Restaurants want you to be available 7 days a week, but only give you p/t hrs. and they all want you to be avail. weekends. which I already work.

These two are seasonal, maybe it can be worked in.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would insist on an ultra sound. A friend of mine is going thru this now..they've xrayed, medicated, done all kinds of testing, finally at an ER the other nite, they did an ultrasound, the dog has a tumor on the spleen, he's going in for a spleenectomy(sp) today..
> 
> While it isn't cheap to do testing, it gives a better picture of what's truly going on, vs waiting it out and wasting precious time..Feeling around doesn't always tell the big picture.


not sure i would insist on ultra sound with out the results of lab work. if the blood work indicates an infection, even if not pinpointed, i would start antibiotics and request a C&S. only let them sell you enough antibiotic to cover gator until the results are back. the results may indicate a more targeted antibiotic.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

blackshep said:


> Well a bladder infection is preferable to some of the other possibilities! I hope he's on the med soon, ouch on the $1000 bill, boy it sure doesn't take long to run up a vet bill...


From everything I have read here and heard from friends in the U.S., vetting here in Ontario is ridiculously expensive in comparison


Carmspack Gus


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> not sure i would insist on ultra sound with out the results of lab work. if the blood work indicates an infection, even if not pinpointed, i would start antibiotics and request a C&S. only let them sell you enough antibiotic to cover gator until the results are back. the results may indicate a more targeted antibiotic.


 I don't need to insist. Odd that if I heard the urine correctly that she didn't do an abx. shot just in case

In fact she selected the wrong blood work, not comprehensive enough. Didn't include...Calcium, CK, cholesterol, lipase, magnesium, triglycerides

She presented the pre-invoice that had what was incl. in the chem. I said wait a minute. Where is ^^^^on this. So she had to go through available packages...gave me a copy and checked off the one she selected, and the one she thought I wanted at 100 more dollars. sSomething to do with these packaged blood tests to incl...4D snap...

Anyhow, I took the latter. Calcium is an important marker for kidney function as well CK for Heart/muscle damage.

Don't know how she could have missed. So then I questioned the CBC. She started saying to me that "comprehensive" means full CBC...I had to check b/c she screwed up on Chem. So she starts about communication and she is all into that and that she had to repeat this 3x. TOO BAD. I lost faith at that point....when the vet starts condescending you after you say you want a more detailed blood test. That's when there is a breakdown in the trust.

It was all getting rushed at that time too so she could move on to next, but she had time to condescend me.

Just remembered too...she didn't take his temp.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Saphire said:


> From everything I have read here and heard from friends in the U.S., vetting here in Ontario is ridiculously expensive in comparison
> 
> 
> Carmspack Gus


Agreed! Just to walk in the door at my vet is $70 and that's cheap compared to others! Doesn't matter if you spend 30 seconds or 30 minutes with the actual vet, that's the start of your bill

I remember when I took my cocker spaniel in to get a ear infection diagnosed in the last few weeks it costs me almost $600 for two weeks worth of meds ($200), the visit plus a cleaning and swabbing to diagnose made up the rest of the bill. It ended up being entirely useless money because he went downhill and I had to put him to sleep less then 3 weeks later  This was all at normal hours with my normal vet at the time, no offhours or extra costs associated with sending away for tests, etc :crazy:


I hope Gator is feeling better soon


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Ugh. I just called the clinic...I just had mini anxiety attack as rep. told me that results were back, but she can't give them to me by law, only the doc can and she won't be in until 3pm...WTH

So. I say, umm, but I can have copies of results, correct? She says oh yeah...It's just the doctor has to go over them with you..I said well can you send me...She said sure send them right away...whew


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Blood work*

































Not sure if can read. Took screen snapshots.
Free T4 is low end of range 12. 3 (range is 7.7 - 47.6 pmol/L)


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

All within normal limits. 


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

not sure why you wanted the lipid profile. based on the lab work nothing indicates an infection. nor dehydration. how is gator today?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

What about the elevated creatine kinase? Doesn't that indicate muscle damage or is it not elevated "enough" to be of concern?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> What about the elevated creatine kinase? Doesn't that indicate muscle damage or is it not elevated "enough" to be of concern?


wow, i am embarrassed that as i was looking for infection, due to the pain observed by gatorbytes i missed that. could explain the congestion heard in the am. a bit of CHF ? i only know a bit about people med. not sure of other than cardiac muscle damage would elevate that enzyme in dogs. how old is gator?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> All within normal limits.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Free T4 is low normal. Think that is a concern. Pair that with symptoms, couldn't it mean pre-cushings?



huntergreen said:


> not sure why you wanted the lipid profile. based on the lab work nothing indicates an infection. nor dehydration. how is gator today?


 What is the lipid profile?
I know, nothing significant that I could source online. 
Gator is very listless today. Cool out too



jocoyn said:


> What about the elevated creatine kinase? Doesn't that indicate muscle damage or is it not elevated "enough" to be of concern?


 It is around same as he has had in past. Vet didn't think significant high then.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> wow, i am embarrassed that as i was looking for infection, due to the pain observed by gatorbytes i missed that. could explain the congestion heard in the am. a bit of CHF ? i only know a bit about people med. not sure of other than cardiac muscle damage would elevate that enzyme in dogs. how old is gator?


 9.5


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Saphire said:


> From everything I have read here and heard from friends in the U.S., vetting here in Ontario is ridiculously expensive in comparison
> 
> 
> Carmspack Gus


I've heard that too. One of the people on my flyball team is an American and she says to go to the US for diagnostic stuff, if it's going to be something expensive like an MRI, that type of thing.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> All within normal limits.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Why do you think there is no specific gravity on this report?
Got all freaked out yesterday when you mentioned kidney disease.

Vet not in till 3. I should call to find out when I can go in to discuss possibilities for his symptoms and pain on palpation


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

your main concern should the be the elevated ck. there was nothing abnormal or other markers that would make the specific gravity useful. 

how is gator this am, any congestion ? any improvement ?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have had young healthy dogs with lush glossy coats come up in the low normal thyroid range...I think thyroid is a concern with our breed but right now it is the least of your concerns and does not have anything to do with your symptoms.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

lipid profile is the cholesterol, triglycerides and other fat in the blood. the ck could be an issue now that he "may" be having symptoms. treatable with meds. its after 3 by me, talk with vet yet?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> lipid profile is the cholesterol, triglycerides and other fat in the blood. the ck could be an issue now that he "may" be having symptoms. treatable with meds. its after 3 by me, talk with vet yet?


 
That just came with the package if I wanted CK and calcium.

Nope, haven't talk to yet.


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

Probably a long shot but what about blasto?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

barnyard said:


> Probably a long shot but what about blasto?


 Blasto?


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

Blastomycosis. I would do a link but I'm having trouble doing that on my tablet.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

barnyard said:


> Blastomycosis. I would do a link but I'm having trouble doing that on my tablet.


 It's ok, I looked it up


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

wouldn't the high ck, which may be a red flag.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Elevated CK can be caused by a multitude of things, some bad, some not. It can run the gamut between heart disease, autoimmune issues to a tense or recently excersised dog and a bad stick for the blood draw. 

In the absence of other elevation is muscle enzymes, liver or kidney values, I would not be overly concerned. 

Disclaimer: I am not a Veterinarian. Any and all advice I give should not b used in place of the opinion of a licensed veterinarian. 

Gator, the kidney values look good. So if you got the spec grav correct, it could be an anamoly. Taking in a "first mornings urine" and checking the spec grav will tell you if your boy can concentrate his urine. 

In the absence of clinical signs, I would not be concerned about the low normal FT4. And no, it would not lead me to think Cushings. Especially not without changes on the bloodwork. 

But if you are worried, a urine cortisol could help decide if you need to pursue it. 

But his symptoms are all front end, wet cough(sometimes and it goes away). It does not seem to fit where people are pointing you. 

I would get chest films. Rule out something in the lungs and the heart. Most fungal infections will show(though you won't know which one), an enlarged heart would show, a pneumonia, asthma, mets, 

I would also consider an ultrasound. 




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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

agree gsdsar, i was putting morning congestion with elevated CK. i doubt he has been exercising hard. like you, not an expert, only know a bit about people med.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

huntergreen said:


> agree gsdsar, i was putting morning congestion with elevated CK. i doubt he has been exercising hard. like you, not an expert, only know a bit about people med.



Excellent point. 


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Just spoke with Vet. She said the CK was likely elevated due to getting the blood. That she wasn't concerned with.

the Sp. Gravity is 1.019. She is concerned, but thinks may have been dilute due to excessive water intake. Although, he had emptied his bladder large at midnight (unusual for him to need to go out for that...if he needs to go out after night walk it's poop emerg. never pee). He didn't drink in a.m before took urine sample...However, she wants to do 2-3 more random urine tests. Sp. gravity only ($15), as well as measure his water consumption per 12 hr period for 3 days.

More (not significant), but gotta walk the fuzz


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

High ck doesn't concern me. Eos are high under white blood cell, that's usually caused by a histamine reaction. Are you sure his allergies aren't bothering him this time of year?

Audible noise sounds are normally caused from upper airway problems, not always chest/lung problems.

I assume they want to ultrasound his chest and abdomen? Seems excessive for just diagnostics with no xrays.

Pain on abdominal palpation, I would demand abdominal xrays and a rectal. Prostate tumors are poor prognosis but more common in neutered dogs. Prostate abscesses are better prognosis but hard to treat sometimes and more common in intact males.

I still stand by 2 view abdominal xrays, 3 view chest films. Ultrasound on abdomen if indicated by xrays.

I don't agree with what most people are throwing out on here because symptoms and diagnostics don't correlate, but I am not a vet. Good thoughts but do not match up.

Low normal levels are still normal and without lack of obvious symptoms do not match up to disease process.



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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

anubis, this is the second time gator has had an elevated ck. imho it deserves attention.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Muscle atrophy as is often seen in geriatric, arthritic patients can and often do cause elevated CK. A stressed patient fighting restraint for blood draw can cause elevated CK. My geriatric cat with severe joint disease and rear end muscle wasting has elevated CK and has had it for years. your other differentials combined with diagnostics aren't really supported which is why it does not seem like a significant finding.

Brain damage with lack of neurological signs? Seems unlikely. Heart damage could be more likely but lack of murmur lowers that differential. 
Chest xrays, as I've already recommended, would be the indicator on that one.

Has gator been tested for HW?

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

HW could fit the clinical signs. Heart damage so increased CK. Eos are triggered by parasites as well so can cause an elevated eos count. 

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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

how is gator today?????


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> Muscle atrophy as is often seen in geriatric, arthritic patients can and often do cause elevated CK. A stressed patient fighting restraint for blood draw can cause elevated CK. My geriatric cat with severe joint disease and rear end muscle wasting has elevated CK and has had it for years. your other differentials combined with diagnostics aren't really supported which is why it does not seem like a significant finding.
> 
> Brain damage with lack of neurological signs? Seems unlikely. Heart damage could be more likely but lack of murmur lowers that differential.
> Chest xrays, as I've already recommended, would be the indicator on that one.
> ...


 The CK levels were the same as before. Vet then, plus my holistic vet who reviewed both felt they were no concern.

This Vet felt same.

Don't know if you saw the post with all values, included 4D snap. Negative on all. 
His Thyroid is low end of normal




Anubis_Star said:


> HW could fit the clinical signs. Heart damage so increased CK. Eos are triggered by parasites as well so can cause an elevated eos count.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 Had a fecal with a giardia antigen test. Page has no comments so not sure.

The High Eos may be related to parasites. We have done a parasite cleanse 2x. So may be why nothing showed, or just the general waste of money as no shedding of cysts/eggs (or other - round, whip, tape)...He did snack on some cat poop while snow on ground, and had fleas in Nov.
So may be why...or could be the pesticides on lawns that are causing the fluid/nasal sound and eye mucous.



huntergreen said:


> how is gator today?????


 Thanks for asking. Yesterday day he was very lethargic. May have been picking up on my stress waiting for results.

By the eve, he was poking me as I was dishing out his food, he almost ran the 4 min. mile on night walk...much cooler yesterday, but after, he was in good spirits, frisky.

This morning again, boogied on walk before work...mod nasal sound, but not as fluidy, still a blob of mucous right eye...doesn't bother him. - not rubbing face or pawing no swelling...
He was super frisky when I got in, quit warm out but he didn't burn out or slow down on walk even going home...still short walk re: heat.

Come to think of things, I did a parasite cleanse 2x. I think 4 weeks apart. Maybe this nasal issue is a result of the body detoxing the die-off.

Really should put him on Milk thistle. Not going to do anything until he has his next 2-3 Specific Gravity tests done.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> Muscle atrophy as is often seen in geriatric, arthritic patients can and often do cause elevated CK. Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That along with pit bull attack. The vet and I discussed last night, that the pain in the bladder/prostate area may be related to muscle tear

The Iliopsoas/psoas...affect prostate, bladder, hind end weakness.

I brought this up to her and she said quite possible - referred to it as groin pull.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Groin pulls take a very long time to heal. If that is the case, you need to have him on strict rest.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I've seen dogs euthanized for muscle tears in the groin because doctors were unable to find the source of the pain/lack of limb bearing.

Low end normal on thyroid is still normal range so without other clinical signs not concerning.

I didn't see HW test on there but can look again.

Eos would likely be allergies or parasites. So may just be this year is worse than past years

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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

When the ortho diagnosed Jax with a groin tear, he said that it was a very UNDER diagnosed injury.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

If you vet is thinking Iliopsoas, then I would look for a rehab place. Laser therapy, estim, massage and acupuncture can be very helpful. An Iliopsoas is not difficult to diagnose if you know what you are looking for. I would see if you could find so done who knew how to diagnose. 




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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> When the ortho diagnosed Jax with a groin tear, he said that it was a very UNDER diagnosed injury.



When the vet diagnosed Oz, he and many on this board couldn't believe we didn't see the signs - but we didn't. I just laid my cc on the table and said, do what you gotta do! A sick animal, it kills you emotionally. They handed me an estimate, I roared, "do you think I bleeping care what it costs, fix my dog". We just went through a set-back with Oz, new X-Rays, meds, blood-work-up, we're at $1,700 and we're personally arguing a new MRI. Dh is finding it a tough pill to swallow on a 10 year old dog... I do too.
Vets in Canada are significantly more expensive than the states, hoping Gator either gets better, or you get a definitive answer, because vets, they have no problem spending someone's money! Especially if they are having an issue pin-pointing the problem.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

*Improving?*

This morning when I woke him up to go out there was no fluidy sound. His eye mucous was about 50%...not a huge green glob. Cleaned out and it was grayish.

On walk he was super slow though


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

You notice all this stuff in his first walk and after he sleeps all night, how is he when you come back from work and he has slept most of the time? He gains pep throughout the day or when he is out of the house?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

maybe he just needs time to loosen up these days. hoping he continues to improve.


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