# Serious dogs



## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

I have sometimes heard of dogs that are "serious", even so serious that a stranger cannot pet them. There is a post about Fero on pdb and him being a dog that nobody would pet... now what does that actually mean? (sorry stupid question) Are these dogs so aloof that they do not tolerate someone petting them?? Wouldn't that be a temperament issue rather than a "good thing"? I understand GSDs being aloof, I have one of those myself, but she tolerates petting, there is nothing that says "don't you dare touch me". 
thanks..


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

sorry have never heard of "serious" dogs. where did you hear about that? is it a term specific to schutzhund or ring sport training?


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I've heard the term thrown about a lot. I wouldn't automatically think it was a dog I couldn't touch, just a dog that could go more civil.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Tammy, that was my initial thought also, to me a dog that nobody can touch is not good?!?


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Our Narys is a dog you do not aprouch while he is on a leash or in our truck, but being off leash he is a







cat. Sometimes its the training that has been done as it was with Narys


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That's an interesting question!

I always say Ilsa is a serious dog. She does not suffer fools. Make a mistake with her and she will give you a message-a look, whatever, to let you know that she is not to be trifled with. 

She will turn her back on people who are looking to pet her. Not in a fear way, but in a not interested, thanks anyway way. I control greetings and watch her.









She has little interest in anyone other than me, really. Unless food is involved-then she will comply and ignore-wham bam, thank you for the cookie, ma'am. With me she can be silly and will wiggle up to me with her tail wagging if she is in the mood. But we don't have any extended greetings-a quick hug and she's gone. 

But I have no idea if I am describing a serious dog, or just my dog. I am just so tired I can't shut up, even online.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Okay got it. So it can be the training that was done to make a civil dog even more civil while on leash, in a truck, in the house etc etc?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

"Serious" may mean a dog who can go civil more easily when he is himself threatened. It may also just mean someone is bragging about their own dog, making him out to seem "tough." It may also mean a dog who is serious, very little sense of humor. The word may be used for dogs who are sharp and have nerve issues. It may also mean a dog like Grimm's sire, a very bold, secure, but extremely über-dominant dog that defends his territory against all comers. His son, Grimm, is the opposite-- completely socially open, envisions all guests to be his adoring audience, if you have a pulse, you're his friend, etc.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've always thought "serious" was more along the lines hard and/or civil, or the type of dog that when you watch him work you just know he's _serious_, not one that treats it more like a game (not to pick on anyone but a lot of show lines I see instead of doing a real intimidating silent guard or bark and hold, they look half interested in the helper, tongue lolling out, looking around at the crowd or their handler..not giving me the impression that they are really "serious" about the work).

I've always thought "spooky" was a dog that might bite you if you approached the wrong way or at the wrong time.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong b/c I would like to know too.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think this is one of those terms that can mean different things to different people. To me, it pretty much means the same thing as what Lies is saying in the context of Schutzhund/work.

A dog that takes the task seriously. Sees the helper as a real threat, and is willing to engage for real, as opposed to dogs that see the protection phase as a fun game. A serious dog is also very likely to be a civil dog. 

I haven't seen the discussion on PDB, but if a dog can be approached and petted by others or not may also have a lot to do with how they were raised and socialized, i.e.: a house dog, or a kennel dog. 

Just me thinking out loud, not claiming any expert insight into the whole thing.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The discussion on the PDB is from one woman who saw the dog and took pictures of him. She stated that she did not try to pet him. In another post about another long gone dog that she saw she said the exact same thing. So, many times it is the people's perception or fear that they are conveying but of course, everyone then says it is the dog who has the issue.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

GSD temperament runs the gamut. Focusing on your question (w/c s/d be more appropriately placed in the breed standard section of the forum than in the schutzhund section)1) is a GSD that can not be pet by strangers a good GSD or is that bad temperament period; (2) does a GSD that can not be pet by strangers have a temperament that is suitable for breeding, ie, is it good to continue in the breed.

My answer to both (1) and (2) is it depends on the dog's use. A dog that can not be pet by strangers is not suitable for a house dog obviously and is a temperament that s/d not be carried forward for the majority of GSDs that end up as companion dogs. It's also a trait w/c can be detrimental in many working and sport endeavors. Therefore not a good trait in general for the all-purpose, balanced GSD. (Most GSDs are willing to be touched appropriately by a non-fearful person. Being pet on the head by a total stranger may not be appropriate touching to many GSDs.)

However, GSDs are also used as police dogs, military working dogs and pure sport dogs. I know a few GSDs that are used in such purposes and yes, they can not be pet by just anyone. Whether anyone wants to call them "serious" is up to the speaker or listener. Unfortunately, such a temperament is also "useful" for "junkyard" guard dogs, a purpose, w/c GSD lovers w/d decry but in reality they do exist. Just drive by the junkyard areas of cities.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Lucia's point that it means different things to different people.

I've not heard "serious" used much to refer to unapproachable dogs. Vocabulary I've encountered surrounding them has been "sharp" or "civil".

Typical usage of "serious" I have encountered (and my own definition as well) is the dog who takes protection seriously, viewing it as a fight and working in aggression rather than as a big prey drive game of tug with the helper.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI agree with Lucia's point that it means different things to different people.
> 
> I've not heard "serious" used much to refer to unapproachable dogs. Vocabulary I've encountered surrounding them has been "sharp" or "civil".
> 
> Typical usage of "serious" I have encountered (and my own definition as well) is the dog who takes protection seriously, viewing it as a fight and working in aggression rather than as a big prey drive game of tug with the helper.


Ditto!


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## ltsgsd (Jan 31, 2009)

As an owner of a serious dog, yes it is the action of the dog when in protection , but with my dog it also carried over into his social life. He was well socialized but at the age of 14 mo(around then) he thought anyone who approached was a threat. After one or two "come to Jesus" meetings, I established myself as pack leader and he now is a perfect gentleman. I still have to keep an eye on him since i know he has this side to him. I make sure I keep him in a platz/sit when in a group of people and keep my eye on wether he is staring someone down or not. This is not tolerated in a social setting. Saying that, I live in Memphis TN where the crime rate is unbelievable. I do let him become protective when I travel .


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Does defensiveness tie in at all with seriousness or civilness? I always considered my Bixler defensive(entirely TOO) as far as protection work went. Keep in mind Im a complete newbie to Schutzhund. 
But for the handful of times Bixler did protection work (before realizing it was not in his best interest to continue) He was very easily (no threat really) turned on, and he didnt care one bit about the tug. 

In social environments (lots of people) he is aloof but not threatening at all, but if it's just me and him and someone approaches us that Im not aware of he sometimes barks at the person, but he stops pretty quickly. A handful of times a friend has been over, and when leaving he went to shake hands and Bix got between us and just barked, and that was after my friend was rubbing his belly earlier. 

If we are approaching a single person, he is fine, its just when they are approacing us, and not even every time, usually its if he spots the person before I do.

That said, I dont see him as "serious" at all, I dont think he would bite anyone ever. I see it as just a show, and more of he is just unnecessarily defensive, percieving threats when there aren't any. 

So is there a difference between what I described and a serious or civil dog? Would a serious dog only react at a real threat, and be prepared to follow through? But if someone just wants to pet the dog... that isnt really a threat so..? Maybe different people describe traits different ways?

Too many terms...


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: KHudak
> That said, I dont see him as "serious" at all, I dont think he would bite anyone ever. I see it as just a show, and more of he is just unnecessarily defensive, percieving threats when there aren't any.


Famous last words. We always have to be extra careful with dogs that have a high "suspicion" level.
Dogs w/Czech lines are particularly known to have high suspicion levels understandably due to their origin as border patrol dogs. 
German dogs, in general, have lower suspicion levels because the Germans (as in most places in western europe) expect their dogs to be "safe" in public.
I have a Czech dog and a German dog. The best way to describe my Czech dog is he is suspicious of everyone until they prove that they can be trusted. My German dog on the other hand, sees everyone as a potential "ball thrower", until they prove themselves to be bad guys. When they do however, watch out because he will bring the fight on. I consider him the "serious one". In protection work it is very difficult for him to not play around unless the helper is really good. My Czech dog on the other hand has been chased off the field. (I'm just describing specific individuals not generalizing about lines.)


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

thanks everyone, this has turned into a very good conversation. Keep it coming!


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

I think the best definition of a serious dog is one that the primitive part of your brain - the amygdala - gives you. 
When watching C in a schutzhund trial or watching police dogs train, there are just those dogs, whose power and aggression literally make your heart skip a beat. 
The hair on the back of your neck and on your arms stand up.
Your blood pressure goes up and you feel heat in your body.
Even your breathing is affected as it becomes shallower.
Your body is being primed by your amygdala for fight or flight.
Nothing is cognitive here, it is pure primal instinct.
The same primal instinct our forebears felt when they heard or saw saber tooth tigers.
That in front of you is a force of nature, and you are a pathetic human being that can not match its power.
Interestingly, I've never had a Mal make me feel this way, but several GSDs have.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Great post Ocean!!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I just joined a Schutzhund Club and heard a lady there(with a Rottie and a Dobie) say that she does not allow people to pet her dogs when asked. 

My question is this: I was with the understanding that the dogs are supposed to be able to accept the petting of a stranger in order to get any of their titles. I understand not knowing this person who shows an interest in your dog, but I understand more the socialization of the dogs. I also understand the dogs are not there(at Schutzhund training) to socailize with each other, but to train, but still wouldn't you encourage your dog to be friendly in order to obtain the scores needed to qualify for titles? I want to get Z his CGC & CD as well as his Schutzhund titles...am I confused? I want a well balanced dog~am I setting us up for multiple failures by wanting CGC, CD as well as Schutzhund titles?

I should add that when I first got him I was planning on just doing basic OB but have since decided to do Schutzhund and have become interested in titles just because it would be a good experience for us both


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Most Schutzhund dogs are very approachable and can easily do a CGC. Some are not. 

One of mine has a high suspicion. He can walk through a group of people, hold his down, etc. But will absolutely bite some Joe who would walk up and touch him. The first schutzhund club I joined, the helper there would not work him because he would "bite for real."
Next club, we worked him in protection, but had to be careful of who did the decoy work so that he was not sent WAY into defense. One very good, but not too experienced, decoy decided to cradle his jaw once he has on the sleeve (a way to develop a calm grip) and my dog was like WOOHOO!! FINGERS 

He does not see bitework as a game, and is a dog that will seriously bite. Great at home, with family and known friends. But this does not make an "easy" dog to live with and could turn into a liability in the wrong situation.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Hardy overall is a very stable male. Not going to come off the sleeve and injure you. He now, being 7, helps train the new decoys because of it. 

That being said, he is also approachable TO A POINT. He will allow his head to be petted, but nothing else. Even when I go to the vet for certain things, I have to do them because it requires going past his head. I think part of this has to do with being flanked in his early training (before me), don't know. He is a dominant male. Only really loveable with DH and myself. 

But if you were to try to charge me or present a threat, he will respond and has but he has always remained under my control. Would I trust him with small children? Absolutely not. He wasn't raised with them. Fine with people being people, yes. Fine with people being a threat? no.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

BTW-- I do not believe that a dog ever has to be touched/petted to pass a BH or attain a SCH title(someone will correct me if wrong). 
They must have manners and be approachable-- i.e. for the judge to see tattoo or check microchip-- but not necessarily "touchable."

_(please note-I am NOT advocating for this type of suspicious, edgy, temperament)_


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A dog does not need to accept petting by a stranger to pass a SchH or BH title. The dog must allow strangers (including whole crowds of them during the BH) to approach very closely, but no where does it require the dog to be petted or fondled by a stranger. 

As Mary said, most SchH dogs are very approachable and are fine with being petted by strangers. Some are not. It comes down mostly to the dog's inherent temperament. If the dog's temperament is such that it can pass a CGC, than it will always be that way whether the dog does SchH training or not. 

It also has a lot to do with the owner. While most people seem to prefer approachable dogs that can do a CGC and SchH3, some prefer unapproachable dogs, and others don't care one way or the other. Many in the first group still don't want random people coming up and petting their dogs, approachable or not. So just because someone tells others "no" when asked to pet them doesn't necessarily mean the dogs have a problem with it, just that the owner prefers not to.

I tell people "no" all the time when out and about in public. Our dogs are quite approachable, but at the same time I don't think it fair to my dogs for me to allow every Tom, **** and Harry who wants to snuzzle a GSD to get in their face and pet and hug on them. They don't seem to mind when people do, but at the same time they also don't have a huge interest in interacting with strangers and unless that stranger has a ball, they couldn't care less if the person existed or not. GSDs are, after all, supposed to be aloof toward strangers. Plus, not knowing the person I have no idea of THEIR social skills regarding dogs. I do know that much of the behavior shown by Joe Public when petting dogs is completely inappropriate, offensive and intimidating, and I think the general idea held by the masses that dogs are to be expected to tolerate this rude, and sometimes outright threatening, behavior no matter what is completely unfair to the dogs. So again, I don't think it right for me to allow my dogs to potentially be subjected to that just so some complete stranger can pet a GSD.

Additionally, a good portion of the time the reason we are out in public in the first place is for training amidst distractions, and letting people constantly come up and pet them sort of undermines that lesson. So I tell people "no" a lot. My dogs are perfectly fine with petting by strangers when I allow it, but for the most part I just politely say "we're training" or something else if someone asks. Fact is, we're out there to train and spend time together, no entertain the masses. There are other times with family, friends, club members, and even out in public that we allow and encourage our dogs to socialize if they want to. But it's always our decision, and not up to the whims of someone approaching and wanting to pet a GSD.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"A dog does not need to accept petting by a stranger to pass a SchH or BH title. The dog must allow strangers (including whole crowds of them during the BH) to approach very closely, but no where does it require the dog to be petted or fondled by a stranger. "

Clarification - yes, it does. Tattoo check.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"A dog does not need to accept petting by a stranger to pass a SchH or BH title. The dog must allow strangers (including whole crowds of them during the BH) to approach very closely, but no where does it require the dog to be petted or fondled by a stranger. "

Clarification - yes, it does. Tattoo check. Some judges will pet as well.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have never had a judge pet the dog on the tattoo check and the rules don't require the judge to touch the dog. Yes, some will, but most at least in my experience don't. They bend over close to see it, but handler is the only one touching the dog by presenting the ear.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

At our trial this weekend, the judge put his hand on each of the dog's face, luckly they all licked him.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI have never had a judge pet the dog on the tattoo check and the rules don't require the judge to touch the dog. Yes, some will, but most at least in my experience don't. They bend over close to see it, but handler is the only one touching the dog by presenting the ear.


No, the rules do not require it, but have seen it done sometimes from the club, regional, national and World level.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I really like Ocean's primal hind-brain analogy because it's very accurate. It really is a "you know it when you see it" situation.



> Originally Posted By: KHudakDoes defensiveness tie in at all with seriousness or civilness?


Again, different people have different definitions of "serious". My definition is a dog that is working in aggression, not merely prey.

Aggression essentially comes in two types, with two different causes: reactive aggression (defense) and active aggression (fight drive, social aggression, a host of other commonly used terms).

Both are serious in that the dog is truly fighting, not playing a game. My personal preference though is I do not care for a reactive aggression/defense dog because this is a dog who is feeling threatened and who's fight/flight response has been triggered. While he may choose fight initially, flight (avoidance) is often not far behind. And this is a stressful, unpleasant experience for the dog. Whereas active aggression/fight drive comes out of an assertive desire to dominate the opponent. The dog doesn't need to feel outright threatened in order to fight. Removing the threat/fear component places the dog not only in a more positive, less stressful mental state, but also removes the potential for avoidance because the fight/flight response has not been triggered.

So while in my definition both the defense dog and the active aggression/fight drive dog are serious, one is much preferred over the other and also much more likely to see a fight through.


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

Our Brago is a totally serious dog on the field. He could give a crap about the sleeve and will bite you for real in a heartbeat if you're not careful. (As one decoy found out when he tried to fake him and left the BARE arm hanging out there instead.) This was when Brago was young and still inexperienced. 

Brago will now take the sleeve because he knows he is supposed to, but he sees it as a fight between him and the decoy, no game. 
OFF the field, and I mean right off the field, he is everybody's pal, including the helper who just worked him. We sometimes wish he wasn't quite as out-going as he is. He seems to have excellent threat-radar however, as he has instantly become defensive and protective in a couple of real-life situations where it was called for.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

^^^^ To me, that's about as perfect as it gets.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Agree!!! I do not let just anyone touch my dogs, absolutely not in training, I am concentrating on training and so should my dogs be. When we are on walks or out and about socializing, I do let people at times pet my dogs. My Cody is a social butterfly that loves people and loves getting pets. Brandie is more aloof and could care less about people, unless they have a toy, and then I have to be careful because she is VERY fast to snatch a toy from someone's hands..








I have a hard time saying that my dogs are not friendly, because they both are, but I am also tired of "stupid" people approaching them inapproprietely (sp!!) like Chris was explaining. I don't want just anyone hugging and kissing them etc etc. Therefore now if someone asks "does your dog bite" I will say YES. and under my breath I mumble "every dog can bite"


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Thank you for the explanation everyone







I was confused. I only let people pet him once in awhile and only if he is behaving ie sitting politely, etc. and if it is what I consider to be a level headed adult. For example, there were two ladies at the park that we had passed several times and they asked what kind of dog he was(I get that a lot because he is a coatie) so while we were talking, they asked if he is friendly and if they could pet him, so I allowed it. There was a girl at the club last weekend that wanted to pet him but I said no because he was too wound up. Your clarifications above helped me a great deal.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

Paivi,

I would describe a dog like Maya as a more serious dog. She does not care for strangers petting her. If someone new comes in the house she goes up to them to let them know she is there, not for a pet, just to let them know and kind of check them out. She keeps a close eye on anybody new in the house. She is very protective of the things/people she values or feel are important (me and Charlie mostly







I have done a ton of socialization with her so she will tolerate new people but I would imagine if I had not ever socialized her and taught her to accept newcomers that she might not be so accepting. Not because of any nerve issue but more out of just letting someone know that she does not want them in her space and that they are not part of her pack. She is really what I would describe as a one person dog, unlike Chico, King or Heidi all of which would happily go live with anybody else as long as they were treated well and had their needs met.


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## charlie319 (Apr 6, 2009)

*Excellent thread*

This is a subject of interest to me since my Ares has been described as a "serious" dog. He has little prey drive and that makes it a challenge to train in today's SchH training doctrine. Once the object is deemed neutralized", he is no longer interested. It is true that he is operating on "Suspicion" at all times and it makes for some interesting encounters. however, if he does not register you as a "threat", you may as well be painted on the wall. Mind you, Ares gets petted by a lot of people we come in contact with, but it is mostly on his terms but by and large he acts uninterested and aloof to adults. He's very good with children (played with 8 & 9 year old nephews & their friends since he was a puppy) and as he has little prey drive, they are quite safe around him. Also, once the training on Protection is over, he stands down very quickly and is very manageable. That being said, he knows that once he gets on the protection field, things are likely to happen and he gets on the clock. Having seen some of the little prey hellions being bred today, I feel lucky to have a dog that can turn it off as quickly as he can turn it on.


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## SandiR2 (Sep 15, 2009)

Smithie86 said:


> "A dog does not need to accept petting by a stranger to pass a SchH or BH title. The dog must allow strangers (including whole crowds of them during the BH) to approach very closely, but no where does it require the dog to be petted or fondled by a stranger. "
> 
> Clarification - yes, it does. Tattoo check.


Not necessarily. I've checked dogs in at a trial and always had the owner/handler show the tattoo while I verified it against the paperwork. Yes, 90% of the dogs might have allowed it, but why put yourself (and the dog, since they'd be the one blamed) at risk when not necessary.


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## SandiR2 (Sep 15, 2009)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> At our trial this weekend, the judge put his hand on each of the dog's face, luckly they all licked him.


 
Brave guy... haha


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