# Collar progression: From prong to flat collar



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I've never had a puppy. Grimm needed a prong at age 5 months old. I have SEVERELY impaired hand-strength. Grimm is a strong-minded Czech workinglines boy. Thanks to the prong, Grimm was able to "hear" me-- my weak, limp hands were able to make the slight corrections "register" for Grimm in the prong. The prong permitted us to go outdoors without him dragging us into traffic, as happened when he was a bullish 4.5 month old.

Training walking on a loose lead was and is a challenge. We're doing well, but not perfect. Grimm's 10 months old. Hormones are RAGIN'!







We do sits as he sometimes charges ahead or left circles as he drifts ahead. We work on focus, when we are still. (I can't manage much more than simple walking when I'm in motion, due to my disabilities) Focus is GREAT when we do focus excersises! Focus is not so great on walks with lotsa outdoors disrtractions for Grimm.







But, we can go for a walk pretty much safely now.

When my puppy is an adult, my goal is to transition down to a flat collar (or a fur-saver). How does this transition occur? Does age help? Do puppies mature out of adolescence to be less ditractable, so a fur-saver can be used? Or, does the transition become possible because by endless rutine, the dog simply learns to heed leash pressure and stay beside you better? I guess I'm asking this wrong..







I'm really trying to ask. how does it happen that we can transition down to a fursaver from a prong, and, why does an older dog accept the fursaver as well as the prong, in time?

This is my first puppy. He loves me and loves to please me. He's a bit strong-minded, so, I hope with much work, a fur-saver is in our future. Just trying to learn how this normally happens!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Patti, I wouldn't even try to do that. Fur saver collar might look 'gentler' to the eye, but it's a choke chain with no stops. A prong, IMO, is safer for the dog.

And knowing you want complete control, even in a confusing situation, I would think the prong would give you that extra security... in case.

I know Grimm will accompany you everywhere and if it's the 'bad dog' look (to those who don't know better) that concerns you, there are prong collar covers made. Here's an example.
http://www.lolalimited.net/Elite.html


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for the link, Anne.







I admit I'm actually just wishing for the day when Grimm and I are more in synch with one another, and I'll ideally have the option of moving away from the prong. You're absolutely right-- I currently truly do need the prong, no question! My hope, someday, is that Grimm and I will be more connected, and the fur-saver will be effective enough at that point. My wish is that in time, a gentler collar can be used. I favor the fur-saver, as it makes a sound correction "Chinnnnk-chinngg", sorta like "Hey, you!"







I know Grimm will always be a bit of a hardhead. At 10 months, he's distractable and of course not yet fully mature, nor fully trained. He's my first puppy.. my last dog came to me as an adult, calmly heeling in a fur-saver. I'm eager to get to that point in our relationship.








Or, is it unrealistic to hope to transition down from a prong?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I take in fosters and most of them are wild animals when I get them. One of my goals is to make them easier to walk on a leash. The first thing I do is put them on a prong and walk and walk them everywhere possible. The most important thing in teaching a nice walk on leash is to never, never, allow the dog to pull. By using the prong to correct and then using a lot of praise after teaches them to walk on a loose leash. Once they start to get the idea of walking nice, I will start to walk them on their buckle collar. I still have the prong on just in case I need it, but quickly switch back as soon as the dog forgets himself and doesn't respond to a verbal reminder. This is a gradual process and some dogs will never be good enough to walk entirely without the prong.

My own 5 mos old puppy wants desperately to pull me around, but I don't allow it. I do have the hand strength to keep him from pulling though. With repetition and maturity, he will hopefully get over this.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

Patti, if you have weak hands, Grimm KNOWS this! I would NOT take him off the prong ever! 

I bought a prong cover for Buddy which looked cool but lessoned the effect of the prong's job! Off went the prong collar pronto after a few days of figuring this out.

Dogs are SO smart - please stay with Prong and reality - Buddy has been on it for 3 yrs and sometimes I alternate to a Gentle Leader which surprises him!! My hands/fingers are somewhat weak from chemo treatments and I need this control for both of us --

As a matter of fact his trainer in IL who is coming to stay for a few days next month suggested that we shoot down to a smaller link - this boy needs total control with the elements and I have no illusions of his prey drive with neighborhood run around with cats and an occasional off leash dog running amok! Save yourself and save Grimm!

~Anne


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2007)

Sorry but I disagree. I think the goal of going to a "flat collar" is ideal and I would encourage that goal. What has been stated about it being another kind of choke collar is not correct. You can buy Martingales or what I like, adjustable slip collars. This is what I train all dogs towards. Prongs are great and for some dogs what will always work best but not needed for all dogs. If the dog is minding well a progression to adjustable slip is fine. Weak hands don't matter either when the acknowledgement that _you_ are in control has been made. Adjustable slip collars do not work as choke collars. They have a limited amount that the compression can be made. I use the Bison brand. Here's an example.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

If a person has physical limitations then a flat collar may not be the best choice and it depends on the dog. I have a strong headed female who is 5 and we are still working to get her off the prong, some days she is fine and others she will try to dislocate my arm.

So I think you need to balance what physical abilities you have and what is needed to control the dog.

When I go to town or the Vet, the prong goes on each one of my dogs. 

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm so very greateful for your advice, Anne, Val, and Tom!!! You have no idea how grateful. I'm not experienced with a puppy before now, and you guys have been through this more than I have. 

Anne, it's a relief to hear from someone else with diminished handstrength, who has a GSD! I always feel like I'm the only one. Maybe you are right about forever needing a prong with Grimm. I will work towards improving Grimm's focus under distractions, tho-- as my goal really is to have a fursaver or flat collar. But, I will not risk Grimm's safety nor mine. If he never is attentive enough/trustworthy enough, the prong would remain our tool.

Val, that's actually what I did with my last dog, who arrived at age 6 with a BH. I used a fursaver all the time, except when working at an airport, I'd slip a prong on instead. Kinda a situational thing, really-- for extra surety in chaotic situations we'd be in.

Tom, your encouragement means alot to me. I'm balancing it with Anne's wise caution. I was really hoping you'd see this thread, as I really hope for your guidance! My goal really is both safety, but also for Grimm and I to be working together as a team enough, eventually, to use a siple flat or fursaver. Do you think I'm doing the right things to, someday, get to that point?

I've had Grimm sit and look at me ("Schau!") before his foodbowl goes down, before his waterbowl goes down, before he is given his release command, before he is allowed to come through all doorways, before he gets a toy, before he gets a snack. We play the two-fists-with-kibble-held-wide-apart focus game, and we're up to a whole 45 seconds! I'm consistant with this focus work, but, he's 10 months old and really distractactable yet. Also, we do a game where we "Fuss" along a wall or a curb and Grimm and I stop every 4 feet, and he has to sit and look at me before we go further. I don't do this often right now, cos I'm in the midst of moving to Germany... but, I do these things to hopefully make focusing on me a habit. My ultimate goal is what everyone else's is, maybe-- off-lead reliability someday, if that's right and safe for the dog, handler, and given situations, once the dog is 100% rock-solid. Ok, that's a loooonnngggg-term goal LOL!







But for now, my goal is better focus, so ideally, we'll achieve our goal of just having the flat collar or fur-saver.







All ideas welcome, criticisms too!


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

Patti, I am glad that you are following your thread -- great input here but I am partial to Val's recommendation most -- we do not live in a perfect world and with disabilities we have more to work with -----

I read of a K-9 GSD with his police handler on a 4th of July who not only spooked with the fireworks but saw a CAT!
The dog jumped the street and was instantly killed by a car -- sad loss for many! A story that I will not forget --- there is NO such thing as 100%!

It is a nice goal for all and we would all wish for same -- Buddy has been through therapy training, CGC, etc., OB for 3 yrs but he has his own mindset that I am not going to ignore in hopes of 'focus' -- 

My trainer could get him into a 'perfect' robot! and I want Buddy's personality to remain........ goofy and fun!

Oh did I tell you about the 63 yr old neighbor whose GSD took her down in the street when he saw a cat and she broke her fragile wrist and surgery, etc., followed.

At the time I urged the GL for her control and they lived happily ever after for many years -- never on a flat buckle collar again -- I did not recommend prong as she had not had enough experience with OB.

I live in retirement community/peninsula and elderly handicapped dog owners are smart to use their GL or Prong. This enables them to keep their love of BIG dogs and enjoy whatever breed they prefer to the end......

~Anne


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Anne, VERY wise cautions! I take them very seriously. I know I will never throw away my prong. My goal is to be able to walk in my own neighborhood on the fur-saver or flat collar at some point when Grimm is an adult. But, the prong would be for going into town, on the bus, or in ANY new situation or location. I don't want to take chances. As for Grimm's personality, my trainer feels that when mature, he is the type who WOULD tend to listen to me. But, I won't know myself about that until of course he is more mature, and has more training in place, before I ever make a judgement call to transition collars, even in the neighborhood. You make great points, Anne-- especially about falling and being dragged, getting injured. I've caught heck from people for having my dog in a prong. But as you said, we really do need to be a SAFE team.

I'd love to hear any and all methods for working a dog towards the goal of a flat collar from a prong.







I can work towards that goal, and see where we are in a year or so.


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## KodisMom (Sep 13, 2000)

With my lupus, I have periods of exacerbation and remission where my joint pain/strength and energy level can be all over the board, so I use a prong collar when we're out and about in an "inperfect" world (as Anne pointed out) for the safety of both me and my dog. 

I wish I were one of the people who are on this board that could take my dogs jogging or on mountain hikes, but my health doesn't permit that. My dogs do get lots of play time with frisbees, balls, etc... and walks. I also belong to a dog obedience club and we go to classes weekly for socialization and training. I worry sometimes, however, that I've "limited" my dogs' potential by not being more active or having them in a home where I am single and take care of my elderly parents; but then I read the rescue section and know that my dogs have a great home and lots of love. My niece brings her children (skin & fur) over often, so they get play time with other dogs and kids.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

True, Rayna. There are situations, especially for those who have impairments, when we are paired with strong-minded dogs in unpredictable situations where we need effective, safe control, and a prong is a tool that can help that.


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> Tom, your encouragement means alot to me. I'm balancing it with Anne's wise caution. I was really hoping you'd see this thread, as I really hope for your guidance! My goal really is both safety, but also for Grimm and I to be working together as a team enough, eventually, to use a siple flat or fursaver. Do you think I'm doing the right things to, someday, get to that point?


Yes, I do think it is the best thing to work towards an adjustable slip. By far the _majority_ of dogs I have trained (and the number is in the hundreds) have started training with nothing more than an adjustable slip. There are occasions given where it is best for the dog, the handler or both to use something else and I have used the prong then as well as tension harnesses and recently the Gentle Leader. All have their merits. It is the rare case though that dogs who start training with something other than an adjustable slip cannot be progressed to its use at a later date. That said though what is best is what works for you _and_ your dog. If you know you are in a situation where you feel the need for something else such as a prong then by all means use one. 

It is my goal in training to have dogs obey because they want to not because they _have_ to. I think only then can you truly be assured that they will do as they should. Any device that _makes_ a dog obey can be defeated. The love and trust of your dog never will be and that is why I train for that goal.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for the input, Tom. I'm so grateful to you!! I'm using food and toys as motivators for Grimm. They get him into position, or reward after he's done something right. I use praise sometimes in place of that. We're very, very close. (he's one of those dogs who GIVES as much affection as he eagerly takes)

What other games should we try? (guess I call training "games," cos even though Grimm gets corrections, it's a fun thing we do together.) Does age help in making a dog more suitable for someday a flat collar? Does it simply take time, in addition to the stuff I'm doing? As this is my first puppy, I was astounded when he grew out of leash-biting, as a baby.







Will he be more responsive to me, provided I am consistant, after he gets through his wild adolescence period? I simply have no idea what makes a dog more responsive. Currently, he only seems to "hear", or respect, the prong at this reeeeally distractable, unusually temperamental, hormonal age. 

Anyone have a success story for me to model after?


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

Patti, we are veering you off track LOL

You asked 'How' and not 'what if' -- I will share my K-9 cops' training tip for fast recalls and stays --

Pick up a 20' lead, let dog wander a bit and DOG COME! (with prong) it has to be fast and precise and with treat if you wish --- whatever motivates him to move to you fast --- over and over until you become the center of his world -- (like I wish) ---

After a week keep shortening the leash and be sure he is getting the COME and reward fast --- heel some and do it over and over ---

I have not tried this myself as it is not a priority as other things are at the time and I do not think that ANYONE will be the center of Buddy's world other than friendly dogs and a hand-out LOL!

We are one of very few on the beach sans a leash and I am envious but not to the point of risk ----keep doing research in the meantime keep those wrists and fingers strong!

I found some unknown strength in my hands earlier-- my family walked in the door unannounced, Bozo Buddy got excited, jumped on the couch and planted his butt on my wireless keyboard! I found power in these hands to grab an 85 lb GSD by the scruff of the neck off the couch onto the floor and have a long discussion eye to eye!! 'yes, mamamam' and off to kennel! 

So glad that Leslie will be here in 12 days for 4 nice training days!!

~Anne


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Anne, I LOVE your Buddy stories!!







Thank you for sharing about him.







I'm delighted you get leslie coming soon, and more intense training sessions coming up for both you and Buddy to enjoy.

Grimm's normally extremely bonded to me. He is still gently nursing on my wrist as he falls asleep when we watch TV together at night. He nurses on my wrist, eyes gazing up at me, whenever we cuddle and he's laying down. He loves me to brush him, pet him, etc-- and, he reciprocates by using his tiny front teeth to scritch me in return. He's a kisser, a gentle, non-pushy leaner, too. I feel grateful for our deep bond.

YES!! I am gonna practice the rapid recall more often! We currently play a game where I have 2 identical firehose-section dog toys. I toss one, say "Bring!" and off he shoots, races to get and bring to me.. he then sits, i say "Aus," and reward with tossing the other toy.

OK, now AFTER the "bring" game, we can play "Hier," cos then he'll have some crazy momentum going, right? If he's sitting and i walk 20 ft away and hold the toy horizontally at my chest and "HIER!!" he ZOOOOOMS at terrifying speed to a sliding-stop sit, gets the toy tossed down to him IMMEDIATELY. (be careful of your private parts doing this game, because the doggler runs REALLY FAST to you and it's hard to stop on wet grass)









Will that get him into the habit of a good come? I can practice that this week, all week! I'll do/try anything to enhance our bond, encourage his focus during his teenybopperhood!!









THANK YOu for the suggestions Anne-- you ROCK!


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

Sweetie, Grimm sounds like a real lover! and you are doing great with your bonding! I would take everything that you are doing a step further in watching handlers in class who have their dog's total focus and that is EYE contact --- no treat until a 5 sec eye hold and further -- so that Grimm is wanting that hot dog every second! 

Eye contact! COME, SIT, EYE CONTACT - GIVE TREAT! The reward is for the SIT, but not for the COME! ironically! This was a tidbit just passed in class not long ago. -------- a perfect sit at your feet gazing into your eyes! LOL

You are doing super! You are doing your homework for the future and I hope that other members join in and give their bonding tips!

PS. You can plan on seeing videos of Leslie at work with Buddy! I got my work cut out for me!









~Anne


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you are looking for the sound correction you would get with the fur saver, I'd use a martingale with the chain loop. That will make the sound, but won't choke (and possibly damage the dog's trachea) like a fur saver or other choke collar.

I think it would help to work on attention. At the shelter, I like to train dogs loose-leash walking without using a leash and collar at all. We let them out in a run and just work on their desire to come back to heel (lots of praise and treats) and then slowly taking 1-2 steps at a time. It takes a while for the concept of attention and staying at heel sinks in, but when it does it's a real pleasure to see the dog catch on and really WANT to be at your side. I've found that it's more effective than using corrections. With leash corrections, the dog will learn what NOT to do, but might never really understand what you're going for or have his own desire to be at the handler's side.

I've used a prong in the past and know of one dog that I will probably never trust on just a flat (her drive and strength is just so great that I can't reasonably expect to overcome it, especially since she is a working dog and it's important for that drive and strength to be there). This dog has learned that flat collar = running (she jogs out in front, my uncle runs 5 miles every other day) and prong collar = expected heeling or loose leash walking, NOT running or pulling out in front.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Hi Patti -

I, too, have difficulties with my hands - actually it's fingers, wrists and shoulders that have the most pain (rheumatoid arthritis). I rarely use a prong collar, NEVER use a choke collar, and have dogs that are pretty darn obedient without being robots.

The more you teach your dog to depend on a corrective collar the less likely you are to have a dependable dog that can be walked without the corrective collar. The majority of people I see who start using a prong end up using it for the rest of the dog's life, and it's because the dog was never properly trained. It's VERY easy for us to become dependent on that correction instead of training. If I have a dog that wants to pull, I will use a GL HARNESS (the kind that has the leash clip on the chest strap) and then I have to make sure that I still train and not just let the harness do all the work. It's easy to get lazy for ALL of us.

Dogs mature but the training is what makes them give you the behaviors they want. There isn't a natural progression that makes the dog stop pulling - it's a trained behavior. 

Since you're using the prong now, what I would suggest is to take every opportunity to reinforce calm behaviors, loose leash walking, attention/focus, recalls, etc. Try to use the pressure of the prong as little as possible so that your dog doesn't think that the command/cue is "don't pull" followed by a pop on the collar (or on the recall, "come" followed by a yank). What you want to build is that desire to respond to you instead of just a desire to avoid the pain consequence supplied by the collar. It sounds like you've got a dog with a lot of drive - capitalize on that and hide toys/balls in your clothes and pull them out randomly as rewards. You can find lots of things to motivate your dog and it will really pay off in the long run. 

You might also want to have two collars on him - a flat collar and the prong collar (with two leashes). Try to work him as much as you can with the flat, and have the prong as a back-up only if necessary. 

I'm a firm believer in doing off-leash work as young as possible. My 3.5 month old GSD (German/Czech lines) is already doing off-leash work, especially recalls and retrieves. We started in a fenced area but now can go out the door and she is right with me. We have a long way to go but my end goal is off-leash dependability (something that I've had with all of my GSD's). 

There are some recall tips on my website, along with attention training (http://www.kippsdogs.com/tips.html). There may not be anything there that you don't already know, but then again maybe there's a tip that will help!

I know how difficult it can be to work with an energetic puppy when you have weakness and/or pain. With me it's both - some days my joints flare so badly that I can't close my hands and you can see the visible swelling in my fingers, knuckles and wrists. I have to really work to make myself train instead of just depending on something to stop behaviors I don't like but in the long run it's absolutely worth it. Good luck to you -

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Melanie, actually, I read your webpage about training tips way back when I began focus work with Grimm, and I was trying to collect ALL the new ideas for focuswork that I could find!







I am doing the following to prevent any future prong dependancy: 


1)Focus work, began 2 months ago, and doing this consistently
He gives me eye contact BEFORE:
*he gets a treat
*gets the "komm,komm!" command allowing him through all doorways
*he gets his foodbowl set down
*waterbowl is set down
*he is given any toy
*any snacks
*he is given his release command.

2) Focus increasing duration game: I stand with two fists closed, wide apart, hiding kibble. Grimm must sit and gaze up at me, eye contact, before I say "Frei!" and he gets a fistful. Initially, all I got was a brief flicker of eye contact.. now we're up to about 60 seconds.

3) We play "Throw your WAIT around."
I "Fuss!" Grimm along a wall, stopping every 4 - 6 paces. Grimm sits, must give eye contact, and off we fo again, Fuss'ing for another few paces.

4)Sometimes, when Grimm slowwwwwly drifts ahead while we're loose-lead walking, I'll have us do a few LEFT CIRCLES. I keep my eyes up, because I don't wanna get dizzy... I'm already "ditzy."









5)By My Side = Goooood Stuff!
I take his fave tuggy toy or jumbo toy canvas snake, and zip it in front of Grimm's mouth, allowing it to "escape" from Grimm around my body as I stand, letting the snake toy STOP at my left shoulder. (this just lures him into sitting at my left side) The SECOND his bum hits the ground-- and I get EYE CONTACT-- I throw the snake toy for him.









6)We play a recall game off-lead.
I get him riles with his canvas dummy toys, then have him sit. I walk away from him, carrying a toy. About 6 yards away, I turn and make sure he's lookin' at me. Then: "HIER!" (toy is horizontal against my chest) Grimm ZZZOOOMS to me, sits fast, eye contact-- and YIPPIIIEEE, he gets his canvas bar toy!

7)Bond-building
I slavishly work and toil to snuggle, cuddle, kiss him.







Not always, but enough that we have a real connection going, off and on throuout the day. BRUSHING is a big, wonderful tactile TREAT for Grimm. He LOVES it-- and even lays down for this! Oyr main method of deep bonding is the ritual of him falling asleep nursing on my wrist in front of the TV as we relax together at night, his jaws gently holding my wrost as his eyelids flutter closed, his mouth gently sucking at my wrist as he falls asleep.

Anybody have good ideas for helping us, guiding us? How am I doing, everybody? Grimm DOES walk pretty well on-lead for a hormonal Czech lines 10 month old puppy... just much etnhusiasm and zip and zing makes him distractable and sometimes slowwwwly surge forward. (yup, I stop,<prong correction does happen here> have him sit, look at me, praise!! and off we go again)


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I actually do use lots of praise and food reward, sometimes toys, as motivators to get that extra happy zip.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

I know I'm late here (don't get on the net often); but when I first got the prong, I wanted to wean Dynamo off asap. Five years later, I still use it; not because she's not trained or not motivated, she's great, but because I won't forget the fact that she can take me into the middle of the street in under a second. The prong on a well behaved dog offers zero discomfort for the dog. Prongs don't cause pain unless the dog hits the end of the leash at 100 miles per hour. You can use motivational training as you have and reduce the incidents and likely hood of your dog receiving a prong correction. Weaning the dog off the prong has more meaning for you, I and the general public (who sees the weird collar thingie on the dog) than it does for a dog that is already motivated not to pull. 
Last week, I forgot Dynamo's prong when I went to a busy park with dogs and bicycles. I didn't forget her toy or treats. She walked beautifully, of course. Does that mean I'm leaving the prong at home next time? No way. She can, and has dragged me into dogs, into streets, and given me rope burns. The benefits of no prong are slim in comparison to the insurance the prong provides. So I wouldn't worry about 'weaning' except in contexts where you can't use a prong and/or when you feel it's safe to do so. 
Your motivational training will get the best out of your dog, and great reliability. The prong will keep you both safe when 99% obedience just isn't good enough. Someday, when you feel your dog on a flat collar would never take you someplace you don't want to go, you can leave the prong behind. In the meantime, keep up all the wonderful motivational training and use the prong as your 'emergency back-up'. Personally, I wouldn't switch to a fur-saver. Fabric martingales are nice for dogs that would never lunge as they slip on for walks, and dogs don't slip out. Or pretty flat collars when your dog is absolutely ready, or walked by someone strong enough to handle him on a flat. Head-halters are an option too, and politically correct, but not often loved by dogs.
PS. Kipp, your training tips are fantastic! Always good advice.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks for your input, Kaslkaos. I really am looking for "How you achieved it" stories, ( I LOVE Dynamo stories! what a character she is!!







)as well as ideas on what I'm currently doing. People on this board REALLY LOVE their GSDs, and it's amazing to read here how much effort we've all out into our dogs' educations. Building such wonderful relationships with our dogs, that eventual flat collar (and sometimes off-lead control) can happen in ideal situations is fascinating to read about here.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

One thing in dog training I can't stress enough is the need for what the Army calls "command voice". Commands must be given with a real snap of authority to them. Dogs (like recruits he he) respond well to the tone of authority and will be much more likely to ignore a tone that is too weak or less than decisive. I have to admit I have an advantage there. I've been an NCO since Ronald Reagan was President so I can do it reflexively - that and I have a voice that naturally carries. When I bellow a command both dogs and people act as though they just got hit with a bolt of electricity. Not everyone can do this to such an extent obviously, but it can be practiced and used by all. It is essential in having true control of your dog. Just the other day Frigga saw a squirrel outside and brushed past me as I came in the door to get out and chase it. She made about a half dozen steps before my command of "Frigga, DOWN!" hit her so forcefully she about buried her chin in the dirt she went down so fast. Why did I use down and not some other command? Because I know my dog and I know she will stop right where she is immediately with that command and that's what I wanted. She was headed in the direction of the road and I didn't want her near it. Not only that, the down command made it clear she must be submissive. After that all I needed was "Frigga, COME!" and she came running right back eager to please. Odin never would've bolted outside without permission now, but in his younger days the command I would've used with him would've been "Odin, SIT!" because he associated that with getting a treat and he has always been driven by his stomach lol!

So my point is that command voice is essential in moving your dog to less device driven control and more personal control such as with an adjustable slip collar. It is absolutely imperative in training for off leash work. You must also know your dog and what motivates them best in communicating with them.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

WHOA-- great post, Tom!! Thank you for reminding me of that. I guess I never took voice very seriously. Until now. I need to think about this. I'm quite softspoken. I need then to work on this. I haven't heard many people bring this up. VERY important and good advice! Thanks Tom.


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## Ardatha (Aug 11, 2007)

Hmmm... I must disagree here. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. I do not have a lot of volume to my voice so my commands to Shadow are sometimes whispered. He obeys beautifully. When my husband gives him a command, he does so in his best ex-Marine command voice and Shadow ignores him. At the most, if Shadow is distracted, I use a conversational level or tone of voice and he does as I ask. For some reason, loud forceful commands turn his ears off.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Hmm.. now you mention it, Ardatha, my trainer whispers EVERYTHING to dogs. He's ex military, too.

But maybe as Tom suggests, having a "command voice" motivates in a no-nonsense, listen to the leader, fashion? I'm not experienced enough to know.









Maybe I gotta try and see what works best for Grimm? I'm not sure what to do. I'm a newbie with my first puppy, 'scuse my learning curve here LOL!


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## Ardatha (Aug 11, 2007)

That's okay, Patti. Shadow is my first puppy in many many years, so we can learn together.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the vocal thing depends on the dog and how it responds. Most of the time I do not use a verbal command with Kenya _at all_. Right now she is quickly catching on to rally positions like right finish, swing from heel to front, swing from front to heel, etc. and she will do all of these positions if I use the right hand movement but the right finish is the only one that has a reliable verbal command. She responds better to movements and how I position myself, and I'm happy to encourage this rather than bark commands at her b/c I need her to be in tune with my movements in order to ever get anywhere with agility or rally. She even has a "stop!" command that she will respond to successfully only if I step forward and make a halting motion with my hand. If I put her in a down-stay a hundred yards away, recall her, and just yell "Stop!" she may or may not stop, but if she _sees_ me putting my palm out flat and taking a quick step forward, she knows that means she has to stop where she's at.

So, I don't really every use a "commanding" voice, unless I'm recalling her from a potentially dangerous situation. I do not, however, ask her to do things. I won't use a super-sweet high voice and say "oooo widdle Kenya baby will you sit for mommy puweeze?" No, I just say "sit" or more often, bring my hand up. I make it clear and concise without having to use a military-esque tone of voice. 

When working on attention, I tap my right temple and sort of whisper "watch....watch....watch...." and "yes!"/treat for every 10 seconds of solid attention. Most people can't even hear me saying "watch". We just started attention work a week ago so right now, 10 seconds of her keeping her nose off the ground is a big deal for me!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Liesje, does the attention work when you're in motion, too? Or just standing doing a focus excersise?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Both. Well, the GOAL is both, lol. We are working on off-leash heel and using the attention/watch rather than a heel command and constant leash correction. She will heel off leash and do her rally turns and positions with attention, but at this point that is only with minimal distraction. While we are training, we are almost always in motion. The times that I reward for stationary attention are situations such as I'm at home watching TV and then I realize the dog sat in front of me and stared at me for 20 seconds. I want to capture that behavior (and at this point I KNOW she has caught on and is trying to earn treats) so I will praise and reward if I have something handy. But yeah for training we are almost always in motion because that is when you actually USE the attention (heeling, loose leash walk, circles and turns, agility, etc).


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Sigh. Sometimes walks can be exhausting! I'm really happy with the STATIONARY focus work I am capable of doing, but my disability completely and entirely prevents me from doing anything whatsoever while I am walking. For able-bodied people, walking is basicly NOT a consious thing. It takes real concentration for me to get it to happen. I walk every day, so, this is no big deal... unless there's a 74 lb puppy lunging about, surging forward, sending me pavement-surfin' face first. <g> We're better than we were 4 months ago, but, he's super-distractable in Hormone City of teenagerhood.









What we have is a BLAZING FAST recall outdoors for a toy. And, a SUPERFAST sit from a down at my side. Hey... we got SOME good stuff goin'! LOL







Wishing for better walking, but it's clear I'll continue to need a TRAINER to regularly work with Grimm on walking/heeling. I do all in my power at home to not UNtrain Grimm between lessons. But with someone with disabilities, sadly, yes-- the trainer actually DOES have to be the one to "get the idea across" for some new (or challenging) stuff.
I just keep trying to copy what the trainer does, motivating, reinforcing, correcting... I just have a devil of a time doin' so while in motion.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

It seems no matter what I say somebody's gotta disagree. That's why I post alot less here and very little at all in the training section - despite the fact that I am a CPDT certified dog trainer with decades of experience at it. I tend now to answer questions by PM so Brightelf, please feel free to to contact me with questions that way. I don't have much inclination to have my methods picked apart by kibitzers.

As for using non-verbal signs, hey that's great. Not a helluva lot of good though if your dog is running off and not looking at you though.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

Regarding command voice, I thought I was clear that this was involved in TRAINING and for serious situations. I guess that was missed even though I stated it in my first sentence.

I don't use it all the time myself. Most of the time a regular speaking voice is fine but with a slight up pitch on the command.

The single most important thing in ANY command is _consistency_ followed closely by _simplicity_. The husband that is ignored probably violates one or both of those. If you want your dog to sit then say _sit_ and not "sit down". Use "down" for down and "sit" for sit but many people make this error over and over among many others. Simple one word commands are best. All commands should be preceded with the dog's name with an up pitch in volume on the command itself. This is my training method and it's worked successfully for hundreds of dogs by me and hundreds more before me by my father who I learned from.


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## Ardatha (Aug 11, 2007)

I can't agree with you more, GSDad, as my husband is one of those that uses any phrase he thinks indicates what he wants, thus confusing the poor dog more. (sigh) The commands usually end up being something like, "Shadow, get down, off of me you oaf, I said get off, stop it, NO!" Of course, down is the command for lie down which is not the same thing as off but how do I train my husband??? (Believe me, I've been trying. I even enrolled us in an obedience class so he'll maybe get a clue. Meanwhile, Shadow behaves almost flawlessly for me and astonishes people when they find out he's still a puppy.)

Oddly enough Shadow learned the hand signals first but that might be because I have a tracheostomy and if my plug is out I cannot speak at all. Sometimes dogs do pick up on things like that. They're amazing animals.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Patti, I read your first post...then conversation started to diverge into whether or not you can...so I'm just going to tell you about my experience. Take it for what it's worth.

Camper is a 80lb beast. Seriously, all 80 of those pounds is muscle, except about 5 lbs of rocks in between his ears. He's super strong, and when he wants to pull, he pulls hard. About 8 mos ago, he pulled one way as I walked the other on a slippery sloped area, BAM! I went down. Nice bump on my head. Nasty concussion. Oh, and he was on a pinch, that I had already been trained to use in obedience classes, at the time. 

Immediately I signed up for a private sessions. My goal was to get him completely under control AND to get him off of the pinch at some time in the future. These aren't competing goals. First, the instructor taught me how to use the pinch and a strong leadership role to truly gain control. A pinch is only as strong as the leader holding it. 

We enrolled in additional obedience classes with this same instructor. Basic. Then Intermediate. Now we're in Advanced. One of the things that our instructor has worked on with us is consistency. Always. Never missing a beat. Immediate feedback (both positive as well as a correction). 

There are 4 dogs in our class. The other 3 are females. We went for a hike in a forested area. Camper walked in a heel -- offleash -- the entire time. I didn't carry treats to bribe him. I chatted with him, but didn't really give him too many commands, except when he got a little too far ahead or behind me. The girls wandered around a bit; there were squirrels and rabbits, but he never strayed from my side. 

I'm now working on flat collar walking. I know he knows how to heel. He's great in an off-leash heel. But putting a leash on his collar makes him want to pull. So it's like starting all over, except he knows all the rules. He's doing pretty well. But the other day, he smelled a critter and almost pulled me across the parking lot. 

Will we get there? Yep. But to master this our dogs needs a LOT of training, maturity, consistency, and practice. I've had and trained a lot of dogs by myself. There's no way I could have trained Campeche on my own. I needed professional guidance. 

At the vet, he used to be a crazy man. Now he's calm and reasonable. Today, as we got out of the car, another dog was barking and pulling and acting, well, like Camper used to. He looked that the dog once and just fell into a heel and walked in with me. We practice going to the vet's office. He greets the receptionist, gets weighed, gets a snack and we leave. 

I'm not super strong after a car accident last year and having broken my foot (that never healed right). But I've learned how to be a leader. My training instructor trains service dogs. One of the things she insists on is that our dogs follow commands whether we are standing (facing the dog, behind him or him behind us), sitting in a chair, sitting on the floor or lying prone on the floor. Start with that. When your dog gets into the heel position when you're lying on the floor, you know that you've trained him well. It's not about physical strength or size or physical position. It's about you and your relationship. Service dogs need to follow their owner's commands even though they're not strong people. 

You may need professional training to get there. But if this is your goal, you should be able to accomplish this. If my stubborn dominant crazy man Campeche can do it, I don't see why sweet Grimmy couldn't.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

LOL~~ You guya all have the greatest stories and experiences! 3K9Mom, thanks for s success stpry.. that helps a LOT! Camper sounds like he was a real handful.







And, you're right-- Grimm's not terribly stubborn or overly dominant. The mood I feel coming from Grimm when he surges ahead from heel position is energetic enthusiasm/distractability, wheee what fun.







Still, you're right.. leadership is critical!

Tom, I appreciate what you said. Consistancy and simple commands are the way to go. I think what many have that I need to work on, is not allowing my emotions to get into it. Grimm enjoys occasionally being bratty, he's a teen. It really isn't anything personal. I make an effort to calm myself and be understanding of Grimm's enthusiasm and youth, his brattiness, too, is temporary and normal. I just need to calmly, consistantly reinforce. You made a GREAT point-- not only correction but praise needs to be immediate. THAT I need to remember! 

Ardatha, methinks hubbies may be harder to train than dogs.







I'll be marrying in a month or two, so, if ya have any hubby-training tips... feel free to share LOL!







Actually, I'm asking my fiance to join me at training, as he's German, and the trainer's English may not be good enough to get crucial points across to me.

Tom, what's your opinion on the program I'm doing currently? Should I add anything? Your input is so helpful to me!! Thank you for joining this thread. I noticed today different tones of voice DO effect Grimm's response. I gotta try what works for Grimm. Yet another thing to work on.


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## Clare (Feb 6, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger. I have a strong headed female who is 5 and we are still working to get her off the prong, some days she is fine and others she will try to dislocate my arm.


well that just takes the steam out of my sails... Sasha is definitely a puller and last night we went two miles in an almost perfect heel position (no treats either - just a nice fast pace). I was thinking I had a breakthru... and now I'm worried...


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Clare, I too am hoping for more success stories on loose-leash walking! Cautionary tales help, too... I am getting the idea that temperament/drives may have something to do with it.


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## sepepper (Jun 14, 2007)

Patti, how are things coming along.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Wow I didn't mean to take the wind out of your sails, just posted my experience. If she wants to pull and I don't have the prong there are two different things I do with my leash to get her to stop. I can stand still or do the crazy Ivans until I can't walk straight but she will still want to pull (very very hard head). 

I use a Martingale on dogs that I am not using a prong. Some Leash tricks, if I can explain them in words.

Got this from an older AKC show person, she calls it "Hollywooding". Hold you leash about 4 " from the snapper, now take the rest of the leash and loop infront of the dog (down the left side - up the right side), now shorten the part of the leash that goes across the chest. The tricky part is to hold the leash in one hand. But when I strated, I used two hands, and used my right hand to check or stop the pulling, just a little check up on the leash was move effective than a collar correction. 

The next one is for when she is really being an out of conrol butthead. I will call this one the "Girth method" I take my leash and loop it down the left side right being the front legs, back up the right side, and I slip it through the chain loop of the martingale collar. I don't like this method for teaching loose leash, but it is darn effective at controlling the pulling, at least on my dogs. 

I prefer to try the "Hollywood" method first for a few reasons, one I like that in a few seconds I can have the leash flipped infront of the dog and second is a have a lighter control for teaching. It is very eash for me to keep the tension off the collar and do the slight corrections with the rest of the leash.

Val


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

One thing I learned in class to train against pulling:

Stand with your dog in a neutral non-stimulating environment, like your living room. Lean over him from the side or squat from the side, whichever is more comfortable, holding his flat collar and pull back. He will most likely pull forward (which is the natural reaction for puller dogs like ours). As soon as he pulls, you want to put your hand into a C shape, put it on his breast bone and put firm gentle steady pressure on his chest, pushing back. The very second that he steps backward, release the pressure and reward him profusely (treats and praise). He may sit. That's fine. As long as he stops pulling forward, he's done what he's supposed to do. 

Repeat continuously for days and days. Eventually work up to two steps. Then three. 

What you're trying to do is train your dog that the appropriate response to a backward-pulling collar is NOT to pull forward (like he has been doing) but to step backward. What you're doing is counter-training his normal instincts. 

There is NO verbal command that goes with this. Don't make one up. The point is that your dog should never pull. Ever. You can't be walking your dog and giving him commands constantly for the rest of his life. He just needs to learn this without a command. And he will. 

This requires a ton of patience, rewards and practice. If he spins when you give him backward-pulling pressure, do it in a hallway or up against a wall, with him between you and the wall, so he can't spin. 

Once he's learned to back up when his collar is pulled, stand and put a leash on him and repeat the whole process (still in your living room), pulling back on his leash, leaning down to put the pressure on his chest, til he re-learns it with a leash on. Then do the same thing in your yard. 

Then try it in the street in front of your house. You may only get a step or so each time. You're starting all over each time. It does work. It just takes a ton of time, effort and patience. Don't forget not to overdo it and to end each session with a success. This takes a lot of concentration for dogs and is difficult to master at first. Be patient. He'll get there.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Stacy, thanks for asking.. things are going well, actually! I think my dog is NOT a puller, per se... just hormonal, teenager-y, young/distractable right now. We've been working HARD on focus work. Grimm is a calm puppy, NOT oppositional, just... hmm.. enthusiastic at his age, very curious on walks, probably typical for a teen.

When we do heelwork training excersises, now he does pretty good at staying by my side... but on walks, everything is soooo fascinating, he has so much enthusiasm and distractability, he often surges happily ahead, forgetting his place. it;s a slow surge ahead, not a stampede.









I guess my fear is: it currently DOES take the prong to get his attention when we're walking and he surges ahead. I do try left circles, whirling and zipping in the opposite direction, etc.. those help lots!! But i guess i secretly, privately wish... a flat collar made an impact, when currently, only the prong does with Mr Distractable.


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## CurlySu717 (Oct 5, 2007)

My Dad's GSD never came off her prong collar. His mutt wears one, too. Dixie was a great dog, smart as a whip, and for my Dad she was an angel on any type of collar (or none at all). But when my Mom, my sister, or I walked her, she wouldn't behave without it. Clearly, Dad was the leader of the pack, and the heck with everybody else! But she wore the prong collar her whole life so that us girls would have some control over her, especially since we were home with her more often than my Dad was. 

Bear this is mind, too -- people who think a prong collar is cruel have clearly NEVER had a dog who needed it!


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## sepepper (Jun 14, 2007)

CurlySu717, agreed!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You are SO right, CurlySu!!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> Tom, what's your opinion on the program I'm doing currently? Should I add anything? Your input is so helpful to me!! Thank you for joining this thread. I noticed today different tones of voice DO effect Grimm's response. I gotta try what works for Grimm. Yet another thing to work on.


Sorry I haven't gotten back to you on this sooner. I missed your question of me.

I think your training program is fine. You have what I find most important in training already - a desire to improve and try new things. Not every dog is the same any more than every person is. What works for one doesn't for another and different combinations of techniques work for each one. Your keeping after this is what will ensure your success. You also have the second most important thing (and it's a close second) that being patience and persistence. Sooo many people want a "quick fix" these days to everything including dog training. Well, it's like anything else. You get out of it what you put into it.

A note on prong collars: It isn't that I'm _against_ prong collars or find them "cruel". In fact, I have used them many times and for some dogs and some owners it's what works best and always will. I don't think that that is the case with the majority of dogs out there though. As I stated earlier, I've trained hundreds of dogs and my father before me hundreds more. By far the majority of dogs have been trained without a prong collar. In the old days before we knew better we used choke collars but since learning of the damage they can do many years ago switched to adjustable slip collars and those work perfectly for about 80% - 90% of the dogs trained. What also has been used are tension harnesses and recently I added the Gentle Leader. Both of those were only for establishing control and beginning training. Dogs were always moved from them to adjustable slip collars eventually. Another percentage of dogs have been moved from adjustable slips on to full off leash control. This is a smaller percentage though and should not be attempted until control with the adjustable slip is absolute.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thanks, Tom for the guidance and encouragemtn! I LIKE that the training isn't a destination but a journey, that Grimm and I take together. When he's out of control or wild in a new situatiion, yep, that's hard on us both... but, I'm having him DOWN/STAY for 5 solid minutes in any new situation first (see, GrimmPiggy? You CAN learn to control yourself before adventures in new places happen)... followed by burning off of his energy by rapidfire OB excersises, spiced with TONS of praise...(Hey Grimm, I guess you gotta think: new location = working for Mama!).. followed by 5 min DOWN/STAY again... for reminding him about control = freedom, cos it gets followed by: "Frei!" (he can explore a lil onlead or play with a toy I bring from my pocket.

Tuesday, we go to Petsmart to practice this... Wednesday, the vet's to praice this.. ( no real vet appointment, just distractions training)... and Friday a real vet appointment, with extra time there to do proofing/training. SOOOO much praise when he stays by me in those left circles!

Plus, we're doing puppy push ups, and focus excersises, on several picnic tables on the grounds of my apartment complex.... 

i am hoping the focus work and stuff will ALL contribute, someday, to being able to ditch the prong dependency of "Mr. Hormonal."


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> Wednesday, the vet's to praice this.. ( no real vet appointment, just distractions training)... and Friday a real vet appointment, with extra time there to do proofing/training. SOOOO much praise when he stays by me in those left circles!


Going to the vet is one of my favorite training activities. So be sure to keep this up!









We walk up to the front door. Camper has to wait in a sit at the front door as I open it. I walk in first (no blasting in past me!). Then I release him to walk in (in a heel) nicely. He gets on the scale and I weigh him. I give him a treat. Then he greets the receptionist nicely in a sit or down, whichever I ask him to do. If a vet tech is walking by, they'll greet him too. He gets another treat from one of the staff, and we leave, with me walking out first, just like he walked in. 

If other dogs or cats are there, we sit in the lobby like civilized citizens, quietly, until they finish their business and the staff have a minute for us. 

He learns the vet's office is a GREAT place to go, with treats for just behaving well. He learns to hop on and off the scale as soon as he gets there, with no hoopla. He learns that the staff are his friends. And he learns that he has to behave when other dogs and cats are around. When he actually has to be treated with awful stuff like blood draws, injections and exams, he accepts it pretty easily. 

We go to the vet's office at least once a week. We may be there only 3 minutes; sometimes 5; sometimes, if they're really busy, 20, (at times like that, we'll wait for a while and then just scoot out without bothering the staff). But it's a great experience each time. Dh brought Camper in last week for a blood draw. The vet thanked him for all the work we've been doing. He had a 80+ lb GSD lunge across the table at him, the woman unable to control him on the day before. It made him realize how all those little trips I've been doing added up to a happy easily managed patient.

Of course, I continue to take him everywhere else. But I found that once Campeche was able to control himself in the high-stress vet's office, he was able to transfer those skills to other places that are simply "exciting" as well.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Campeche really has self-control down pat.. CONGRATS!!







You are doing a GREAT job with him!!

Grimm has not yet learned self control in new situations, as i can not drive, and have had no volunteers to drive Grimm and I places. We'll be working on that LOTS this coming month in Germany.. Oh Lord, wish us luck LOL!!!


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## lorriekirby (Jul 18, 2005)

This has been my exact issue with UB. He is a wonderful and easy to control dog while on the prong. He has shown no aggression or protection of me around any other person. He does not pull and he does everything I've asked him to do.

My problem comes with attempting to obtain the CGC. We are not allowed to use the prong. That's why I've been working with UB on the flat collar. He does heel good now, but his protection mode kicks in. I can put him in a down immediately with the prong, but once he starts pulling on that flat collar, there's no getting him down. 

So, I guess he'll stay on the prong, be a great boy, with no CGC. Bummer. I appreciate reading all this good info. I helps me realize not all dogs are the same and some just need a little more than others.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Lorri, try a weaning phase with the prong. I go to a Martingale and work with that for a while, while I an using my leash infront of the dog. This weekend I will try to get some pictures. When the dog is doing well on the Martingale then I go to a flat collar. 

Val


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Lorrie, now that you menation it, Grimm is more relaxed on the prong than the flat. GOOD point you brought up. Wonder why this is?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I think because it is clear to the dog who is in charge. When the prong comes off, we as humans feel that we loose control (or we actually do) so that causes concern for the dog, IMHO.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

1/2 hour down stays (building up to that) are great for dogs to learn that self-control. Bruno is being started on these again...


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfCampeche really has self-control down pat.. CONGRATS!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh Patti. I wish! He pulls like a mule on a flat collar if I'm not totally on the ball and aware of myself and what I need to do to keep control of the situation. 

I think Val's hit the nail on the head -- it comes down to leadership and being in control. Some days, I bring my best game and Camper walks fine on a flat collar. Most days, we don't get off our block. We just walk, stop, back up, step, stop, walk a step, back up, walk, stop...and so on...for 20 minutes. And that's our walk.







I don't let him pull for even one step. If he does, we stop; he re-situates himself and we start again. Til he pulls (which is often the next step) and we do it all over again.

It's frustrating, and I wonder how much of that expectation of frustration I somehow telegraph to him as soon as I clip on to his flat collar? 

So I've learned that the whole experience is both about being self-controlled for him and self-possessed for me.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Oh yes indeed, they _do_ pick up on your vibes. If you're confident they are too and the same for just the opposite. I tell people who are making the progression from a prong, tension harness, etc. to start out someplace safe for both the handler and the dog. The backyard is usually best but if not there then the garage, basement or wherever else that works. It is obviously very important that the handler feel that they are in charge and able to control their dog. At this point it should not be so much at all the leash or collar that is providing the control but the verbal and physical commands of the handler.


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## lorriekirby (Jul 18, 2005)

GSdad, that is a great point. I read your posts earlier, and I do use my serious "command" voice when I mean business. UB responds to that very well. However, in the situation that I just had with him lunging/biting at a neighbor, I must have somehow telegraphed my aggitation of not being able to control him with the flat collar. I kept tugging and trying to place him in the down position and he was having no part of that. I'm sure I got frustrated and once the bite took place, I totally freaked out.

I'm taking all of this good information and will continue to really work with my boy. I'm just not confident yet in his ability to continue on in public without that pinch. I will try the Martingale, too. I just want my boy to be confident that I'm confident and I know I exude more confidence when I have him on the pinch, as it is much easier for me to control. Sorry for the ramble......


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I feel helpless, out of control, and in REAL DANGER sometimes-- because I absolutely, no question AM. THAT is part of the problem here... in my case, I really, truly need more regular help. I've had almost ZERO help. I now have a trainer, who is wonderful, but not often available. In my new home, I pray I'll have some more help. I will try to think LEADERSHIP and not "uh oh, pavement surfing face-first" next time we work in a new situation.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Being "in charge" is something you really have to convince yourself of and not everybody can do it right off. You will have to build on it and the best way to do that is by taking small steps. Be confident in your backyard first, then your street, the next four or five blocks from home, etc. Also remind yourself of your motivation. If you had a child with you for example, you would have to be "in charge" then and it would be pretty much automatic for most people. Although a dog is _not_ a child your amount of responsibility for that life is comparable. If you think of the experience in that light - of being responsible for your dog's life then you should be able to be "in charge". It will take time and you may have setbacks but so too do you with raising a child. Nobody comes into the world knowing how to do this. You must train the trainer (meaning YOU). And don't be afraid to use anger in training your dog. It should be appropriate for the occasion of course, but a serious transgression should be made clear to the dog of it's seriousness. My example of Frigga running out the door is a prime example of that. The angry booming of my voice got an instant reaction and she understood that she had made a very bad choice. If you do not show your displeasure adequately to your dog they do not register that they have done something wrong. Most cases they'd only be confused and at best aware that something wasn't "right" but not be certain of what or why. So always remember to yes, praise, praise, praise for good behavior but be the final say too on bad behavior and make your displeasure clear. Dogs want to please. It is in their nature to do so. In the end dogs are trained best by knowing what will gain praise clearly and just as so what will cause the "wrath of god" if they displease.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI feel helpless, out of control, and in REAL DANGER sometimes-- because I absolutely, no question AM. THAT is part of the problem here... in my case, I really, truly need more regular help. I've had almost ZERO help. I now have a trainer, who is wonderful, but not often available. In my new home, I pray I'll have some more help. I will try to think LEADERSHIP and not "uh oh, pavement surfing face-first" next time we work in a new situation.


Patti, It's taken me 5 obedience classes, a couple private lessons tossed in, and did I mention that Camper is 17 months old?

If you feel that you are in real danger, then you may be. Don't push yourself. You'll know when you are ready. And it doesn't come all at once. It comes bit by bit. You do need more help. Tom's a good trainer, but I couldn't do it with just internet suggestions. I needed someone at my side to explain (and show me) how to do it, and I needed actual time with my dog who has proved to me a day at a time that he IS trustworthy. Every time he sat when I put down his food bowl and waited to eat, he proved that to me. Every time he remained in a stay when I opened the door (Instead of streaking through the door, bashing Zamboni and me in the process), he proved that to me. Look and see all the ways he's proving to you that he does respect you. He is proving that he's trustworthy. 

We forget to notice how far they've come because we concentrate on how far they need to go. 

I learned how to be a good leader and proved to him that I'd keep him safe. And he learned to be a trustworthy companion to me. That takes time with guys like ours. Heck, it takes time with any dog other than the most docile golden retriever. 

You'll get there. I know you want it now. I did too. But when I look back and see all that "Monster Dog" (as we called him back then) and I have accomplished, well, it feels great. Grimmy is young. He's a teenager and will be for several LONG months.







But then you'll post from Germany in a year or so that you and Grimmy just climbed the Eiffel Tower,visited the Louvre, then toured Bordeaux on your vacation. 

And we'll all be jealous and we'll smile because we knew you and the Grimster had it in you all along!


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomTom's a good trainer, but I couldn't do it with just internet suggestions. I needed someone at my side to explain (and show me) how to do it, and I needed actual time with my dog who has proved to me a day at a time that he IS trustworthy.


There is _no_ substitution for proper training hands on with an actual dog trainer. Preferably one who is CPDT certified if possible. And yes, one day at a time as we have both suggested. Trust is earned - both you for the dog and the dog for you.



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> We forget to notice how far they've come because we concentrate on how far they need to go.


Truer words were never spoken, Lori. All of us, even the most experienced trainers, have fallen into this one. A good reminder. Excellent point!


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Good discussion!









Even though Ive stopped using "corrections" for training purposes (initiated by me) with the prong collar, I still use it on Bixler, because theres been too many times where i've not had it on, and he's tried to bolt after something and ripped my arm off, but when he has it on, he corrects himself and aborts chase. Kind of a security thing. There are many times where I prob dont need to have it on, but until Im sure hes not going to run off and take my arm with him, I will use it. Layla on the other hand is fine with her flat collar on all the time pretty much, and shes the puppy, go figure!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

3K9Mom, what a wonderful post-- THANK YOU!! I think you're right, I really do need the encouragement and a positive perspective.... Grimm deserves me to notice that he sits for foods, waits and gives focus at all doorways, can hold a nice long downstay (without distraction), he lets me brush him, clip his nails, and his walking on lead is not as bad as it was this summer, even!

Tom, your ideas also really help me. I'm relieved you joined this thread!! I read everything you post, to broaden what I know.

I guess the harsh reality is, I need someone else's HANDS to intervene on my behalf, on a regular basis. My hands are so terribly weak, my grip poor, and my corrections rediculously slow and soft. I can SEE the moment he needs rapidfire, no-nonsense lead corrections as he surges ahead on lead.. but it's long past that moment when my body finally tries to react. By then, my arm is often helplessly extended, and cannot flex against the lead pressure. People with disabilities really DO need help.

Really, even with a trainer's help, it is myself who trains (or untrains) my own dog, daily. I am painfully aware of this fact. I've read everything I can in this forum and others on training, I got "My Smart Puppy" by Brian Killcommons and Sarah Wilson, and it's been my bible. Truth: When the body doesn't work well enough, all the knowledge doesn't help much.







Please send good vibes that we find a great trainer there in Germany.







Until then, Grimm's on leash work actually IS improving!!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

This really is a learning process, with a puppy, isn't it? I recently learned Grimm works REALLY well for hot dogs. I'mm be incorperating them into any work we do, along with praise, toys, etc... especially hotdog treats for working in any new situations. (in Germany they'll ALL be new situations, God help us LOL!!)


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti, I am not sure I should bring this up and I don't want to turn this into a heated debate, but here goes. You and Grim might benefit from the use of an eCollar. I am not sure what sources you would find in Germany. But since you have physical limitations that make your corrections ineffective and ill timed, it might be a tool that could help. 

I have never used a eCollar, but I can see that with the proper training it could be a very useful tool.

Please, let's not turn this into a heated debate. 

Val


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfThis really is a learning process, with a puppy, isn't it? I recently learned Grimm works REALLY well for hot dogs. I'mm be incorperating them into any work we do, along with praise, toys, etc... especially hotdog treats for working in any new situations. (in Germany they'll ALL be new situations, God help us LOL!!)


LOL! Well at least there will be plenty of sausages in Germany!









Re: Val's suggestion of an eCollar. No I won't rule that out though I very much dislike them, but I think that if the right trainer is found that the need for such a device will be a moot point. Most people with disabilities have dog helpers who have no eCollars. The dogs are, however, highly trained. As I recall, Germany is very much involved with dogs and the disabled. I think that Grimm will find his trainer there quite readily.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Val, Grimm's been in an e-collar during training since he was 5 months.







Once in the e-collar, Grimm became more upbeat, happy, "lighter" in his reactions during training. I don't use it punutively, but rather like a supergentle "tap on the shoulder", a soft reminder "You-hoo: a command!" VERY gentle, it's paired with the prong simultaneous usage. He responds beautifully, and very VERY positively to the e-collar. He gets more relaxed, more upbeat working in it. When used as a subtle reminder, motivationally, rather than punitively, some dogs like Grimm get happy and interested in the work. (yes, if he puts me in danger/lunges, I can use a more corrective stim setting if we are at real risk--remember my disability with my hands) Sadly: e collars have just recently been made illegal in Germany, as some have overused them punatively, and Germany has a "purely pawsitive" movement that has money behind it.

Tom, you brough up a good point, most diabled folk have well-trained dogs. There are some wonderful service dog agencies putting out nice low-key dogs... and there are also many agencies putting out dogs bred for extreme biddability, that have had both the ability, and the tendency, to think for themselves, removed geneticly. Obedience by default. They're ideal, a real godsend for the most impaired people to be paired with a dog. They've also never had an original thought in their life. I prefer a thinking workingpartner-- even if I must go through these challenges to get there.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> 
> Tom, you brough up a good point, most diabled folk have well-trained dogs. There are some wonderful service dog agencies putting out nice low-key dogs... and there are also many agencies putting out dogs bred for extreme biddability, that have had both the ability, and the tendency, to think for themselves, removed geneticly. Obedience by default. They're ideal, a real godsend for the most impaired people to be paired with a dog. They've also never had an original thought in their life. I prefer a thinking workingpartner-- even if I must go through these challenges to get there.


This is interesting and quite sad to hear. I was unaware of this. Is this a recent development? I knew a blind man several years ago who had wonderful GSD that was anything but a robot.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Phoenix and Tika have both received a lot of training which I did pretty much on my own. While they have worn prong collars it was more of a reminder to behave. They often had the pinch on but the leash was attached to their flat collar. I am not totally sure HOW I trained them for this but BOTH of them learned that if I issued a command/request and they didnt comply all I had to do to correct them was to snap my fingers (a verbal marker could also be used). They could be right beside me or across the room or field. 

Would using a positive approach such as clicker for doing well and a <insert command word or sound here> be used as a negative correction work for Grimm?

(I do apologize, I have not read the entire thread as I have had a lot going on recently so I am not sure how much this will help).


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Tom, this is common in the larger agencies. Not all agencies have a breeding program designed to towatd this extremne. It's about money-- they can graduate more dogs with more people, because now the most impaired people can get a dog who won't be trying to do much other than whatever they were just told to do.
Again, not all agencies are this way! PM me if you want agencies I have experience with that breed towards that extreme.

Amaruq, actually, Grimm's trained with a clicker, or marker word, and yummy snacks. The prong is an absolute must for corrections, as my hand-strength is severely impaired.. and Grimm is a teenager-y 10 month old workingline Czech male pup.







STRONG-minded dog. But to be truthful, he loves to please, is GENTLE in the extreme, affectionate beyond words, a "soft, gentle soul".. just going thru a super-distractable, hormone-y period.


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## csaiz (Dec 21, 2006)

Background first:
Kati has her CD, Leo is working on his RN

2 month ago I took both of them on their morning potty break in my fenced front yard (at 5:30 am). Both were on leashes with flat collars. As we turned to go back inside a stray cat was walking across my pasture. The outcome:

They lunged, I fell, hit my head on a step and was dragged on my concrete patio.
Blood was pouring out of my head, I had 3 skinned knuckles - almost to the bone, a skinned palm, a skinned elbow, a skinned knee and a skinned shoulder.

I will never ever take the GSD'S or even my Border Collies out without a pinch.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

Respectfully, having such a title or working towards one does _not_ indicate a dog that will respond as you wish.

I have trained dogs for decades and am fully certified to do so. Neither of my dogs has any titles. Why? Because I don't need somebody else's grading of them. I know where they are in their training. For those involved in schutzhund or some other activity such titles are fine and are meant for that purpose, but even they are no guarantee of a given response as can readily be seen if you've ever seen such events.

In reality nothing can be 100% guaranteed. My father who was a trainer for many years before me said it this way, "The only thing you can depend on 100% is yourself." I use that in dog training and in life itself. My dogs respond to verbal commands because that's what I train for. If my dogs see something that triggers their prey drive they will do as I bid. Odin is so highly trained he knows enough already that he is to chase nothing without my say so. Even Frigga who has been such a handle to train now will stop immediately if given the command to do so though she would indeed chase something briefly as my story of the squirrel earlier in this thread indicates.

What it comes down to is this. Flat collars, prongs, tension harnesses, head harnesses etc. are all _tools_ and none of them replace the value of _your_ control of your dog by virtue of the training relationship you have established with them. They all have merits, they all work for dogs - different ones for different dogs and people and different situations. Flat collars are not "bad". Neither are prongs, or harnesses. The only thing that's bad is complacency. Training is ongoing and should always be continued. Even my Odin as highly trained, steadfast, and reliable as he is has training sessions with me. They both re-enforce his training and the bond between us.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

The only thing that's bad is complacency-- GOOD POINT, Tom!! It's often when I'm casual, relaxed, and NOT reading my dog carefully (we can't always be watching them, I admit-- that's impossible 100%) that some kinda disaster happens. Wakes me up to keeping an eye on my young dog!

I think you have a point too, in that consistancy is a big deal, such as Grimm always sitting and giving focus before his food bowl comes, water bowl, or before he gets any toy, snack, or even is allowed thru doorways. that won't be forever, maybe-- but for a loooonnnnnggg time.


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## csaiz (Dec 21, 2006)

"The only thing you can depend on 100% is yourself"

Well said.

And congrats on your dogs







they must be the best trained and behaved dogs in the word.


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

Not sure whether my experience fits here...but we had good luck graduating to a harness from a prong. 

When Luca started herding lessons earlier this year, his instructor asked us to buy a harness (just a regular dog harness, not one of the no-pull, head, or other specialty ones) Just a regular harness, with a leash attachment on the shoulders. 

So that we could practice wearing it before our first class, I put it on Luca, attached his leash to it and decided to go for a walk. It was the first walk he had been on ever without some kind of collar around his neck (a flat collar as a puppy, and a prong from about 8 months old). 

I guess the sensation of *not* having a collar on was sort of a novelty to him...we were outside of his yard going on a walk...but where's the collar? this can't be right! He kept looking up at me as if to ask, "are you sure this is okay? I mean, I don't have my collar on?" 

I tied the lead to my belt and we just started walking. He never pulled, if he got farther ahead than I wanted or was distracted, all I had to do was say, "Luca, stay by me." And he did! 

I think having to listen to me, rather than get information from tugs on his neck, actually made him pay better attention. 

Now, we only use the harness. No prong or flat collar. Walks have never been better.


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: csaiz"The only thing you can depend on 100% is yourself"
> 
> Well said.
> 
> ...


Well I wish that were so. It takes time for all dogs and all dogs progress at different things at different rates. Odin could certainly be described as exceptionally well trained but then I've been working with him for 6 years. He came to me a very unhappy dog though with alot of separation anxiety caused by his previous owner. It took time but he eventually became my most well trained dog to date. It was not without a fight though. He's also among the most intelligent dogs I've ever known. Frigga is less far along in the progression but then I've only had her for 9 months and she too came to me very troubled. Even more so than Odin, in fact. She had serious dominance issues and for a time I feared that I had finally met the dog I could not train. Support from the fine folks here helped me through it. She's made alot of progress in just the past few months but she still has a ways to go. She like Odin is exceptionally intelligent and it is no coincidence that both have been the hardest of my dogs or dogs I've worked with to train. It proves what I've long said about the dogs I've trained for others. That being that you do not command a super intelligent dog so much as you _convince_ them. This is at the heart of why I rely on verbal commands. It is _me_ that is giving them the direction and not something else such as a collar. It takes awhile to get there, but this is the goal I always aim for.



> Originally Posted By: Luca_stl
> I think having to listen to me, rather than get information from tugs on his neck, actually made him pay better attention.
> 
> Now, we only use the harness. No prong or flat collar. Walks have never been better.


You're doing exactly as I suggest, Tracy. It is your bond with your dog that motivates him. Not the prong, a harness or anything else.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

COOL story, Tracy? I bet Luca thought he was naked.. no collar! LOL







Luca really sounds like such a sweetheart! If I attached a halter to Grimm, and a lead from the harness to my waist, you'd all be seeing me on the news as the woman in need of a total body skin transplant !!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lorrieThis has been my exact issue with UB. He is a wonderful and easy to control dog while on the prong. He has shown no aggression or protection of me around any other person. He does not pull and he does everything I've asked him to do.
> 
> My problem comes with attempting to obtain the CGC. We are not allowed to use the prong. That's why I've been working with UB on the flat collar. He does heel good now, but his protection mode kicks in. I can put him in a down immediately with the prong, but once he starts pulling on that flat collar, there's no getting him down.
> 
> So, I guess he'll stay on the prong, be a great boy, with no CGC. Bummer. I appreciate reading all this good info. I helps me realize not all dogs are the same and some just need a little more than others.


Lorrie, I asked my trainer about this last night as we were discussing the CGC. It was graduation night of our Advanced class and she suggested that some of us take the CGC. So I mentioned what you brought up.

She said that prongs aren't allowed, but CGC is a AKC test and AKC allows choke collars. She says that what a lot of reputable trainers suggest for dogs like ours is buy a choke, train on it a couple of weeks, take the test, and throw the choke away. If our dogs are actually "good citizens" in every aspect of the phrase (very obedience, not aggressive at all, etc) but they simply pull if they are on flat collars, as long as we're still training toward our dog being on a flat collar one day, she personally didn't have a problem with using a choke as an interim step for purposes of taking the test. If we pass on that day, we are able to fulfill all the requirements as the AKC sets forth the requirements of the CGC whether or not we choose to use a choke on a regular basis.

So, that's definitely an option!


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## WISLADY (Apr 9, 2007)

This has been a great thread to follow. I also have some disabilities which require the use of a prong on my 9 month old GSD.


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