# FDA: Dog Foods & Canine Dilated Cardiomyopathy



## Momto2GSDs

The FDA issued the following pet food consumer alert today (July 12, 2018): 

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration is alerting pet owners and veterinary professionals about reports of canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs eating certain pet foods containing peas, lentils, other legume seeds, or potatoes as main ingredients. These reports are unusual because DCM is occurring in breeds not typically genetically prone to the disease. The FDA’s Center for Veterinary Medicine and the Veterinary Laboratory Investigation and Response Network, a collaboration of government and veterinary diagnostic laboratories, are investigating this potential association.





http://truthaboutpetfood.com/fda-investigates-potential-connection-to-diet-and-heart-disease-in-dogs/


----------



## car2ner

I'm glad you posted that. I noticed that the SkeptVet on Facebook had posted it as well.


----------



## gsdluvr

@Momto2GSDs, I saw that article. It still sounds like there's nothing conclusive??


----------



## Jax08

There is a strong correlation between the grain free diets and a higher incidence of taurine deficiency causing DCM. Lots of info coming out of Tufts.

The grains were replaced by items with higher protein content so less meat in the food. Less meat = less taurine in the diet. Less taurine = sick or dead animals. 

Grain-free. Is. A. Marketing. Ploy.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

gsdluvr said:


> @*Momto2GSDs*, I saw that article. It still sounds like there's nothing conclusive??



"Diets in cases reported to the FDA frequently list potatoes or multiple legumes such as peas, lentils, other “pulses” (seeds of legumes), and their protein, starch and fiber derivatives early in the ingredient list, indicating that they are main ingredients. Early reports from the veterinary cardiology community indicate that the dogs consistently ate these foods as their primary source of nutrition for time periods ranging from months to years. High levels of legumes or potatoes appear to be more common in diets labeled as “grain-free,” but it is not yet known how these ingredients are linked to cases of DCM. Changes in diet, especially for dogs with DCM, should be made in consultation with a licensed veterinarian."


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd

So what dogs need grains? What do you do if you're feeding raw? Or your dog is allergic to all grains?


----------



## dogfaeries

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> So what dogs need grains? What do you do if you're feeding raw? Or your dog is allergic to all grains?




If you’re feeding raw, your dog is getting taurine. Replacing that meat with peas, etc reduces the taurine.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd

Oh gotcha, phew! Thanks


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Jax08 said:


> Grain-free. Is. A. Marketing. Ploy.



While I do not totally disagree with you, didn't the "Pea/Legume" revolution begin for dogs who were sensitive to grains?


----------



## Jenny720

http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/...e-or-grain-free-diets-and-exotic-ingredients/
Interesting article 
I don’t think I will feed my dogs corn. I did go to Fromm grain dog food which has lots of grain so not feeling much better. I do supplement with fresh meat and there is tAurine in the food. I did notice max’s nose is less dry from switching to grain free to food with grain.


----------



## Dragon67155

Great now I don't know what to feed Xena. I just brought a new bag of Diamond Naturals Lamb-GF adult Large Breed. But I have noticed that lately her poop is not as sold anymore.

I don't know what to feed her.


----------



## Jax08

Momto2GSDs said:


> While I do not totally disagree with you, didn't the "Pea/Legume" revolution begin for dogs who were sensitive to grains?


I'm not sure why I would know that??

The grain free fad took off after the wheat was contaminated and many, many dogs died.


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> A broken heart: Risk of heart disease in boutique or grain-free diets and exotic ingredients ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School
> Interesting article
> I don’t think I will feed my dogs corn. I did go to Fromm grain dog food which has lots of grain so not feeling much better. I do supplement with fresh meat and there is tAurine in the food. I did notice max’s nose is less dry from switching to grain free to food with grain.





Dragon67155 said:


> Great now I don't know what to feed Xena. I just brought a new bag of Diamond Naturals Lamb-GF adult Large Breed. But I have noticed that lately her poop is not as sold anymore.
> 
> I don't know what to feed her.



Just supplement with taurine. NOW has powdered taurine you can just put on their food. It's inexpensive. Keep it refrigerated. 

Feeding a raw diet is no guarantee to have enough taurine either. It depends on what meat is in the diet.


----------



## Jenny720

Thanks Michelle. I’m going to take it myself to.


----------



## Jax08

It's water soluble. Any your body doesn't use will just wash out


----------



## Magwart

Processing with heat with water apparently dramatically reduces the natural taurine in meat and eggs, so that may also have something to do with the kibble problem (as the natural taurine sources are degraded by processing: first boiled in the rendering pot, and then steamed in the extrusion machine).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12864905


----------



## Jax08

Yes, taurine is sensitive to both heat and exposure to air. It's why I don't grind the hearts for the cat food. They've been adding taurine to cat food for years so any dog food with ADDED taurine should not have issues.


----------



## Jenny720

Interesting. Fromm does add their taurine in dog food. https://frommfamily.com/ingredients/taurine/


----------



## dogfaeries

It’s also added to the Victor that I feed.


----------



## newlie

Earthborne adds it, too.


----------



## Muskeg

Could it be added taurine isn't super accessible to the dog's body? 

I agree grain free is a marketing ploy. It's made companies lots of money. Few dogs are allergic to rice or barley, from what I've read. More likely it is something environmental, or a protein allergy of some kind.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I do know that Keefer is sensitive to rice. He's been on grain free food for years, not due to any marketing ploys but because of all the food issues with tainted rice protein products that came out of China, and sickened and killed many pets. When Dena was sick I had cooked up a big batch of beef and rice for her, and after she died I still had some in the freezer. Rather than throw it away, I thought I'd add a scoop or two to Keef's meals until it was gone. I know he's fine with beef, he's been on beef based kibble many times over the years. But as soon as I put the beef/rice mixture in his food, his ears blew up. They were red and inflamed, he was scratching at them and obviously miserable. I threw the rest of the beef and rice away and his ears were fine again. 

But overall, I don't think grains are evil, if they're in the food I want them to be lower down the list of ingredients, not used as cheap filler to replace meat protein.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Grain sensitivities are REAL and many dogs have them. My grand dog is one of them....he has been tested.

Book: See Spot Live Longer (Steve Brown/Beth Taylor): Quote: “Recent studies in peer-reviewed veterinary studies worldwide show that the consumption of the carcasses of storage mites that are in the grains used in dog food *may be a major contributing factor in symptoms of allergies in dogs.* 

I believe that "grain free" began as a good idea because there was a "need" for it for these types of dogs. 

Let's face it....not everyone wants to or will feed raw, AND many cannot afford the dehydrated or freeze dried or air dried foods so......grain free kibble seemed to be the way to go. The possibility of the peas/legumes causing health problems for our dogs is extremely disturbing.


 Kim Kalendar wrote about her concerns with peas/legumes back in 2012!!!!
 "Peas and pea protein have become a concern. When questioned about the changes, we are deluged with scientific research provided by highly ranked universities stating the nutritional contents in peas and pea protein. My question is, has there been any research to prove whether or not these nutrients are bio-available in a carnivores digestive tract. Peas belong to the legume family. Legumes are high in phytic acid. Phytates have a tendency to bind calcium, magnesium, and iron in animals and humans.
I am even more concerned with the lectin proteins contained in these ingredients. We have never seen head lines reporting wolf packs or wild cats descending on wheat, corn, or pea fields. There is a good reason for this. Lectin proteins are a plants natural defense. While birds can digest these proteins, humans and carnivores cannot. Lectins are designed by nature to work through the digestive lining in order to break down it’s predators system and disrupt digestion. When undigested protein enters the blood stream, the immune system sets up an auto immune response resulting in allergies. Lectins are sticky, binding proteins. They attach to leptin receptors which regulate carbohydrates into glucose. In time, they can disrupt these receptors and lead to diabetes, obesity, and cardiovascular disease; conditions very prevalent in humans and pets today. Lectins also attach to villi in the digestive tract. They block absorption of nutrients. In time the damage becomes permanent. We see a lot of this in American German Shepherds. " https://truthaboutpetfood.com/disappointing-trend-in-rising-pet-food-market/


----------



## Muskeg

On food allergies: 

What every pet owner should know about food allergies ? Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School

"None of the currently available tests have been shown to be accurate – that non-allergic dogs test negative and allergic dogs (and only allergic dogs) test positive. In fact, multiple studies (including this one just published) have shown that these kinds of tests are not very helpful in diagnosing food allergies, despite their widespread use for this purpose. Research results presented at a veterinary dermatology (skin) conference even showed that some tests “diagnosed” plain water and stuffed animal “fur” as having food allergies."


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Momto2GSDs said:


> Grain* sensitivities *are REAL and many dogs have them. My grand dog is one of them....he has been tested. QUOTE]
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative here......just explaining.
> 
> Dr. Jean Dodds: "Confusing food allergies with food sensitivities (or intolerance's) is a common mistake, not only among dog guardians, but also among veterinary professionals. I often hear experts in the veterinary field refer to food allergies, when in fact they are talking about food sensitivities. This is unfortunate, because as long as the veterinary community continues to confuse these two very different immunological responses, our dogs likely will not receive the correct diagnosis and will continue to suffer.
> 
> *So, let me be clear. Food sensitivities and food allergies are definitely not the same thing.*
> 
> *The fact is that true food allergies are actually quite rare.* If I had to estimate from personal experience, food sensitivities are at least 10 – 15 times more common than food allergies. So, if poor little Buddy is scratching incessantly or has chronic bowel problems, he’s probably suffering from a food sensitivity, rather than a food allergy." https://drjeandoddspethealthresourc...sitivity-versus-dog-food-allergy#.W0pgQbgnY2w
> 
> 
> My real life experience with grain sensitivities (as with Cassidy's Mom and many others) is:
> 
> *feeding grains = red ears, red butt, itching
> *stop feeding grains = red ears, butt and itching disappear. :grin2:
> 
> 
> Moms


----------



## Magwart

The really interesting thing to me is that the researchers are saying RAW-FED dogs are allegedly suffering from this nutrient-induced heart injury too. 

It looks like some commercial raw diets seem to not supplement with taurine (neither does THK)....assuming it will be available in the raw meat that these diets include. I just reached out to Vital Essentials asking for their analysis of how much taurine is actually in their diets -- they sent me the dry-matter analysis for every one of their diets. The beef is 0.22%. 

Given the degradation upon grinding, I wonder if it's enough. Hm.

Has anyone done a taurine blood test for your dog, and if so, where did your vet send it out?


----------



## Jax08

@Magwart

Did you see Monica's post on taurine? Her advise was not to waste money testing but just to supplement. 

When I created my cats diet years ago I studied taurine intensely. It's not hard to meet requirements using things like heart, sardines. The darker the meat, the more taurine. But it does degrade easily in heat and surface area exposed to air.


----------



## Jax08

Muskeg said:


> Could it be added taurine isn't super accessible to the dog's body?
> 
> I agree grain free is a marketing ploy. It's made companies lots of money. Few dogs are allergic to rice or barley, from what I've read. More likely it is something environmental, or a protein allergy of some kind.


I don't think so? Monica segal has been adding it, and correcting health issues with supplemental taurine for years.

As far as the degradation thru the kibble making process, this wasn't an issue until the grain free fad came about. It wasn't traditionally added to dog food because they don't have the same issues cats have.

And just to be clear....I don't believe anyone said grain allergies weren't real, or that grain free was not the appropriate choice for some animals. What we said was it was a marketing ploy, i.e., to the masses thinking it was the healthier choice when most brands really are not. I don't think there is any reason for anyone to be feel they need to prove allergies exist any more than we have to defend our opinions that it's a fad that's been marketed too. The topic is taurine....And it's a pretty important one just on its own.


----------



## Magwart

Jax08 said:


> @*Magwart*
> 
> Did you see Monica's post on taurine? Her advise was not to waste money testing but just to supplement.



No, I hadn't but thanks for pointing me to it!


For anyone else who feeds raw or alternative diets, Monica's perspective is interesting:
https://www.monicasegal.com/wordpress/taurine-deficiency-in-dogs/


----------



## Magwart

Here's the Honest Kitchen's response from their founder about concerns regarding their use of peas. To me, it amounts to saying basically <nothing to see here, unless the FDA makes us remove peas, we'll keep using them.> They totally breeze past the effect of air-drying on the meat in their formulas or the suspicions about legumes possibly even interfering with taurine. I'm NOT happy with them.



------------------------------

Customers and Retail Partners,

Last Thursday, the FDA released an announcement that they are investigating a potential link between foods with peas, lentils, other legumes or potatoes as their main ingredients and the suspected increased occurrence of Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM).

While we know this announcement may cause alarm, we’re monitoring this issue closely, and we feel you should continue feeding our foods with absolute confidence.

• The FDA press release mentioned there may be a potential link among foods with a high percentage of peas, lentils, other legumes or potatoes as their main ingredients. However, we always formulate diets with meat first, and the majority of the protein in our complete and balanced foods is from animal-based sources. Furthermore, we use legumes or white potatoes in only select recipes and in moderation in our dehydrated foods.

• There is a suspected link between DCM and Taurine levels (an amino acid that is necessary for heart health). Our complete and balanced diets contain the recommended AAFCO levels of cysteine and methionine, for healthy taurine production in canines. Also, taurine is naturally occurring in our complete recipes, due to our high concentration of animal-based protein.

• Based on our staff veterinarian’s comprehensive review of all the currently available research, we don’t have any reason for concern at this time regarding the safety of our diets. Also, the press release mentioned the FDA has already been in contact with a number of brands with diets in question, and we can share that we have NOT been contacted by the FDA to date.

Since 2002, we’ve been producing products that make a meaningful, positive impact in pet health. We incorporate quality, safety, and integrity into our formulation and manufacturing processes in order to ensure that our products provide the best possible nutrition, and we want to assure you that we continue to feel great about feeding our diets to our own pets!

Ultimately, your pet’s health is our number one concern. We are continuing to closely monitor the study from the FDA with our team of veterinary partners, and we will keep you posted as new information becomes available.

Lucy Postins, Founder and Chief Integrity Officer"


----------



## Jax08

I'm not seeing the issue with their response.



> Our complete and balanced diets contain the recommended AAFCO levels of cysteine and methionine, for healthy taurine production in canines. Also, taurine is naturally occurring in our complete recipes, due to our high concentration of animal-based protein.


They've just said their food has sufficient amino acids and the majority of protein is from meat. I'm not sure what else you want from them? 

they can't change ingredient overnight, and even if they did, what would be the choice? This will cost a large amount of money to reformulate their diets and change ingredients.


----------



## Magwart

All they need to say is: "We hear you. We're going to work to offer an limited-ingredient base mix without peas for customers who don't want to wait for the FDA to figure it out. Stay tuned."


I get that they can't do it overnight -- but they _can _do it eventually, if they want to. I'd far rather hear they're working to offer an alternative, even at greater cost (since we don't know whether the peas are screwing up absorption).


----------



## Jax08

Maggie - the problem isn't the peas. It's that diets were formulated with lower protein because the manufacturers used more peas and legumes. If their diet meets aafco standards and they are already high in meat content then there shouldn't be any reason to be concerned. No matter which food you choose right now, you are going to have the same response. Your best bet is just to supplement with taurine.

From a product design standpoint, until they have a concrete answer because they only know there is a correlation, they gave the appropriate response. they are waiting for more research instead of giving a knee jerk reaction so if a change has to be made they can do it right. A knee jerk reaction after the contaminated wheat is exactly why this thread exist today.


----------



## Magwart

I bought some taurine and started supplementing. My frustration is that a base-mix is supposed to mean not having to worry about this stuff. 



I hope you're right about absorption. I don't have much confidence that anyone has a clue what's going on yet.


----------



## Jax08

@Magwart

https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/news...nk-between-dog-diets-and-deadly-heart-disease


"Peas, legumes....as main ingredient"


----------



## Momto2GSDs

* 29th Jul 2018 | *


*Dodds Responds to FDA Statement on Canine Heart Disease, Taurine Deficiency and Potential Dietary Causes*

https://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/176405475391/fda-dog-heart-disease#.W1830bgnY2x


----------



## Sabis mom

I appreciate all the reports linked here as I have a dog with pre-existing heart issues who has been on a grain free diet most of her life. I discussed this with her vet and our decision was to do a blood draw and go from there.


----------



## gsdsar

So here is the weird rub in regards to this issue. Not all dogs diagnosed with DCM on grain free diets were deficient in Taurine. So the cause is still under investigation. It is going to take a while and many tests and many dogs added to the study to get a better handle on what's happening and narrow down the cause or correlation. 

As a cardio tech, I personally saw 3 dogs last week with DCM in breeds that are not normally prone to it. They were all on grain free food. But no one knows WHY. 

My best recommendation, if you have your dog in grain free because it's the "in thing to do" or because you heard "it's better than food with grain" but your dog does not ACTUALLY need to be on grain free, then find a different diet.


----------



## Jax08

@gsdsar - when did this start? Has it been ongoing and the correlation is just now being put together with the food? The grain free fad has been going strong for about 10 years now.

Is there a study ongoing right now?


----------



## gsdsar

Jax08 said:


> @gsdsar - when did this start? Has it been ongoing and the correlation is just now being put together with the food? The grain free fad has been going strong for about 10 years now.
> 
> Is there a study ongoing right now?


My docs started asking questions at rounds about 18 months ago. Things specifically linked to specific food. We did not start putting the correlation with grain free until about a year ago. Then they started talking to other cardiologists and then the ball got rolling. 

Grain free really started after the melamine scare in dog food a decade ago. But really hit it stride 3-4 years ago. Fir a long time it was only very boutique and expensive brands. Then more mainstream companies jumped on the bandwagon and now every company has a grain free version. 

So, now with, I believe, 40% of dogs in US on a grain feee diet, the number of dogs is just greater, so things got noticed. 

If you see 1 weird case a year, you think it's a one off. When you start seeing 1 a month you start to pay attention. 

The FDA is currently collecting cases. But it will be a while before any true study is complete. But the correlation is strong enough fir them to put out a warning.


----------



## GatorBytes

gsdsar said:


> Grain free really started *after the melamine scare* in dog food a decade ago. But really hit it stride 3-4 years ago. *Fir a long time it was only very boutique and expensive brands. Then more mainstream companies jumped on the bandwagon and now every company has a grain free version.*
> 
> So, now with, I believe, 40% of dogs in US on a grain feee diet, the number of dogs is just greater, so things got noticed.
> 
> 
> The FDA is currently collecting cases. But it will be a while before any true study is complete. But the correlation is strong enough fir them to put out a warning.


Which makes you think how far into a study should be done/data collected. May not be the grain free, but the source of ingredients in grain free - what brands are fed and where are these brands sourcing from?


----------



## gsdsar

GatorBytes said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grain free really started *after the melamine scare* in dog food a decade ago. But really hit it stride 3-4 years ago. *Fir a long time it was only very boutique and expensive brands. Then more mainstream companies jumped on the bandwagon and now every company has a grain free version.*
> 
> So, now with, I believe, 40% of dogs in US on a grain feee diet, the number of dogs is just greater, so things got noticed.
> 
> 
> The FDA is currently collecting cases. But it will be a while before any true study is complete. But the correlation is strong enough fir them to put out a warning.
> 
> 
> 
> Which makes you think how far into a study should be done/data collected. May not be the grain free, but the source of ingredients in grain free - what brands are fed and where are these brands sourcing from?
Click to expand...

Exactly. They don't know yet. They only have the correlation. Which we all know does not mean causation. But the common link right now is grain free.


----------



## gsdsar

And another one today. Not every Hallmark needed for the study. But 10 yo mixed breed on grain free, new murmur. DCM. Owner is devastated. 

What makes me so mad, none of these owners think they are doing anything wrong. They are trying very hard to do the absolute best fir their dogs. And when you see their face, when you ask what food they are feeding, whenbthe new correlation is brought up. It's heart breaking. 

And I wish it was clear cut. I wish that EVERY dog on grain free got DCM(I don't but still) or no dog. 

A VAST majority of dogs will NOT develop DCM on grain free/high legume diets. But for those that do...


----------



## Jenny720

The body is so complex and all so different. It’s very sad. I hope they get to the bottom of all this soon.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

*· **Please Don’t Panic About the “Grain-Free Thing”*
· By Nancy Kerns *Whole Dog Journal*

· I’ve been getting calls, emails, social media messages, and countless forwarded articles from other websites and publications – perhaps even from you! And the first thing I want to tell you is to take a breath!
· The FDA recently issued a warning (linked here) that it is investigating a possible link between diet and dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in dogs.
· The warning spread like wildfire through social media channels, but unfortunately, it also rapidly got dumbed down to a ridiculous level; it quickly evolved into something like “grain-free foods cause canine heart disease,” or worse yet, “boutique foods might kill your dog. The FDA characterizes the issue as a “potential association” between diets with very specific attributes (and certainly not ALL grain-free diets) and canine DCM – _not_ a cause.
· Please note that the FDA’s headline did not say anything about “grain-free diets” causing heart problems – though almost all the blog posts and articles in other publications have been saying exactly that. If you read the FDA’s statement, you will see that they said there may be a link between _some_ grain-free diets and canine DCM, but there are _also_ many other things going on that may be responsible for an observed rise in cases of canine DCM.

· Linda Case, long-time animal nutrition expert and author of _Dog Food Logic_, has written an in-depth article for WDJ’s September issue that goes into lots of detail about what is known about the dietary causes of DCM, including _several_ issues regarding taurine and the amino acids (cysteine and methionine) that dogs use to produce taurine. Please revisit wholedogjournal.com in a couple of weeks to see her article about the connections between diet and DCM in dogs. 

*Hint:* It’s not as simple as the possibility that the diets are lacking the amino acid precursors to taurine.

· https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/b...rnal:e309707:821860a:&st=email&s=p_Blog080218


----------



## Jax08

Here is a spreadsheet with blood test results and foods they are eating. Pretty interesting. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...gOJjsh4cziKZwdA6GEbXTUFJ_M/edit#gid=582733736
@Magwart - HK is on this list.


----------



## Magwart

Jax08, that spreadsheet is absolutely fascinating! Thanks for posting!!!



THK had multiple dogs with deficiency. Not good! It looks like THK feeders *must* include a taurine supplement now, to be safe. 



Fromm Four Star Duck & Sweet Potato is another one with more than one dog coming up low. Earthborn and Taste of the Wild have multiples too. Kirkland Nature's Domain too. These are all foods many people on this forum feed.


----------



## Jax08

Thought you would be interested. NOW, you can be mad at HK.


----------



## gsdluvr

Not all the formulas of these brands were on the list. Are we to assume they are OK? Or just not tested? 

I have a GI challenged male who can only eat Nature's Domain Turkey sweet potato. He is perfect on it. Only the beef formula was tested.


----------



## Jax08

I wouldn't assume anything just because they are listed here. This is a short list of dogs affected.

The only thing I would assume is that supplementing with taurine would not be a bad idea.


----------



## Magwart

It looks like it's crowd-sourced from people who paid for testing and were comfortable sharing their results with the world -- so it's not going to be complete. Some people will test and not share. Others will supplement, and not test. Others won't have made a food connection when the dog has heart issues, esp. if they cannot afford a specialist.


----------



## Muskeg

Is this the kind of heart problem where a dog might just drop dead suddenly? I have a few friends who have come home to a dead dog, no obvious reason for death. None of the dogs had a post-mortem (necropsy) to determine cause of death. I am wondering if there are a lot of cases where a dog died with no diagnosis, and food-related CDC could have been the problem. If so, the stats are skewed only to those pet owners who get lucky and catch it early, and/or can afford advanced diagnostics.


----------



## Jax08

I don't believe there are any "stats" yet. simply a correlation between grain free food and DCM. They have no idea what is causing the issue specifically.


----------



## Sabis mom

This whole situation really upsets me and sadly any findings will be much to late for a majority of pets currently in loving homes with owners who want to do their best.
I asked Shadows vet if I should be supplementing or changing foods. She said no. Wait and see. I have a dog with a weak heart, she doesn't have time for me to wait and see. Acana is also on that list.


----------



## gsdsar

My best suggestion is to supplement with Taurine if you dog needs to be on grain free. 

Taurine MAY be an issue.

Yes. DCM can cause fatal arrhythmia which can lead to sudden death when no other signs are there.


----------



## Jenny720

I love this forum. Wow look at all those golden retrievers. I have not fed duck and sweet potatoe or lamb or lentils but Is very iNteresting with the protein combo with grainfree and issues. As already mentioned some of the brands in the list supplement their food with taurine -I suppose it’s not enough taurine.


----------



## Muskeg

Stats- maybe wrong terminology. But I'm guessing there may be a lot of suddenly dead dogs, whose owners didn't get necropsies (few do) and were eating grain free and died due to cardiomyopathy. So the data might be missing a lot of dogs, where the dogs didn't get a chance for diagnosis, or the owners didn't have the ability to see a specialist. 

I had a coupon for a free small bag of food, and even I was tempted by the grain free marketing. I went with the grain-containing food, but the packaging for grain free is so pretty and has so many fun catch-phrases! I think a lot of "normal" pet owners have been feeding grain free for a long time, so a lot of dogs may be at risk. 

I'll be following the research. But if I were feeding grain free for no other reason than packaging and hype, and my dog was healthy and could easily eat grain-containing. I'd switch, for sure.


----------



## Jax08

I think you are making assumptions based on a correlation without causation. the spreadsheet I posted is information. JUST information. It's more than we had yesterday and less than we'll have tomorrow. They have no idea what the connection is between the food and the DCM. As GSDsar, posted previously, not all dogs are having issues. As Monica Segal posted, she's seen dogs on all diets having issues. The easiest thing is just supplement with taurine.


----------



## Muskeg

It took a long time to prove causation between smoking and cancer. And in the meantime plenty of smokers died at a healthy old age.


----------



## Jax08

Well you do you. I'll just supplement with taurine regardless of what I'm feeding.


----------



## Magwart

For anyone who wants to pick up some Taurine, Whole Foods has 25% off all supplements this weekend. I don't know if it's just for Prime members who scan their app, but it can be combined with coupons (and MamboSprouts.com has a $2 off printable coupon good for any Jarrow prodcut). You'll probably spend less than $5.


----------



## Muskeg

Not trying to be argumentative, really. But I'm concerned that supplementing with taurine, and continuing to feed suspect food may not be enough, based on what I've read so far. My preliminary thoughts are that something in the food or diet is blocking the body's ability to process taurine, and/or that the issue is more complicated than simple taurine deficiency. 

I could totally be wrong. What people feed their dogs is up to them.


----------



## Magwart

Digging into that spreadsheet yesterday, a few things popped out at me:


Acana seems to be very strongly over-represented...but not Orijen. That's weird, but Acana feeders ought to sit up and take notice. 



Fromm had a few come up low on Four Star Duck & Sweet Potato. This one is not grain free (it has rice, oats, millet and barley). It also doesn't have peas, but it does have taurine in the ingredient list. So it's very strange that this type of Fromm is connected to low taurine -- it doesn't fit the grain-free/legume pattern. Two of my kibble-fed dogs rotate through this one, so I emailed Fromm to see if they're looking into it, linking to the spreadsheet and pointing out the problem -- I got back a canned "everything's fine, nothing to worry about" email...except that it's clearly not fine for the owners of the Fromm-fed dogs who came up low. I honestly find it really surprising that this grain-containing/pea-free food has a couple of dogs represented, but the grain-free flavors (with peas!) do not.


----------



## Jax08

Didn't HK tell you they meet AAFCO requirements for the necessary amino acids? And above, gsdsar said not all dogs are getting sick. That suggests there is more than one factor involved.


----------



## Sabis mom

Magwart said:


> Digging into that spreadsheet yesterday, a few things popped out at me:
> 
> 
> Acana seems to be very strongly over-represented...but not Orijen. That's weird, but Acana feeders ought to sit up and take notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Fromm had a few come up low on Four Star Duck & Sweet Potato. This one is not grain free (it has rice, oats, millet and barley). It also doesn't have peas, but it does have taurine in the ingredient list. So it's very strange that this type of Fromm is connected to low taurine -- it doesn't fit the grain-free/legume pattern. Two of my kibble-fed dogs rotate through this one, so I emailed Fromm to see if they're looking into it, linking to the spreadsheet and pointing out the problem -- I got back a canned "everything's fine, nothing to worry about" email...except that it's clearly not fine for the owners of the Fromm-fed dogs who came up low. I honestly find it really surprising that this grain-containing/pea-free food has a couple of dogs represented, but the grain-free flavors (with peas!) do not.



I had recently switched Shadow to Acana, just for availability reasons. I will now after reading and talking to the vets be putting her on a food that is NOT grain free at least on a trial basis. I am leaning toward Canadian Naturals.


----------



## carmspack

this thread could join this one - same topic 

https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...-food-may-linked-heart-disease-fda-warns.html 


Taurine - good value Nature's Life $16.00 for 400 grams 
Taurine Powder | Nature's Life

I buy this on a regular basis and donate to a Cat rescue - cats dropped off in various stages of pregnancy to
to the Bluffs (lakefront cliff) .

Look at how horrible cat food is . An obligate carnivore eating pea protein -- FIELD peas not your bright little
green table peas !! , pulses, legumes, potatoes .
A cat . An animal that can not thrive on dog food because it lacks taurine .

Grain free sounds and feels "virtuous".

As Momsto2 said the dogs' kibble has a protein listed in first place and then a long cue of either grains OR
pea etc .


----------



## Jax08

@Magwart @Muskeg

I found this interesting+

https://www.monicasegal.com/wordpress/taurine-deficiency-in-dogs/

"In addition, a paper – Dietary beet pulp decreases taurine status
in dogs fed low protein diet – (Ko and Fascetti Journal of Animal Science and Technology (2016) 58:29 DOI 10.1186/s40781-016-0112-6)states ” ….. BP may contribute to a decrease taurine status in dogs by increasing excretion of fecal BA (bile acids) and decreasing protein digestibility, thus decreasing the bioavailability of sulfur amino acids, the precursors of taurine."


----------



## Jenny720

Would be interesting to see if all the foods mentioned in that study have beet pulp in it . https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4971673/


----------



## carmspack

beet pulp is the waste by product of sugar extraction of the sugar beet 

it is a filler 

not to be confused with healthful red "table" beet which is richi in detoxifying betaine,
and has anti inflammatory benefits .

sulfur - organic sulfur and taurine --- without going into the complexities of the sulfur cycle starting with 
plankton releasing sulfur into ozone, falling to earth in rain , falling on fields to be absorbed by plant and reccyling to ocean --- SIDE BAR this is why our oceans are critical to life -- plankton 

it has been knonwn for some time that our foods and diets are increasingly deficient in organic sulfur

MSM is an organic sulfur tha can be added to a diet with many benefits resulting


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> Would be interesting to see if all the foods mentioned in that study have beet pulp in it . https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4971673/


Or some other ingredient that would act in a similar manner.

Soooo many variables that could be causing this, including a genetic link since its not affecting all dogs.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Jax08 said:


> Or some other ingredient that would act in a similar manner.
> 
> Soooo many variables that could be causing this, *including a genetic link since its not affecting all dogs*.


That's one of Dr. Stern's theories - that there is something within the genetics of some breeds/lines that makes the dog less efficient at making taurine.

One of the feline studies (from way back when) also suggested a genetic component, but it was much harder to quantify since most of our modern domestic cats are genetic unknowns - compared to the number of purebred dogs, whose breed is obvious, pedigree known, and patterns observed.


----------



## Jax08

WIBackpacker said:


> That's one of Dr. Stern's theories - that there is something within the genetics of some breeds/lines that makes the dog less efficient at making taurine.



Doesn't it make sense that there has to be a link somewhere? They already know there are issues within certain breeds. And since not all the dogs of the same breed on the same food are being affected, that implies that within those lines there is something that more adversely impacts those specific dogs.


It just doesn't make sense to me that there is only one variable in all this. If that were the case, all the dogs would be impacted.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Jax08 said:


> *Doesn't it make sense that there has to be a link somewhere? * They already know there are issues within certain breeds. And since not all the dogs of the same breed on the same food are being affected, that implies that within those lines there is something that more adversely impacts those specific dogs.
> 
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to me that there is only one variable in all this. If that were the case, all the dogs would be impacted.


Yeah. Personally, I definitely think there is a genetic component. Sure, there will be outliers, but there are patterns. 

There's a ton of research out there on heritable metabolic diseases in humans.....



> *In recent years the number of disorders known to affect amino acid synthesis has grown rapidly*. Nor is it just the number of disorders that has increased: the associated clinical phenotypes have also expanded spectacularly, primarily due to the advances of next generation sequencing diagnostics.


 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500668/) 

There's no doubt in my mind that there is a genetic link, though there are always other factors.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Zooming out.... this recent uproar over taurine might be the tip of the iceberg of understanding the importance of this *particular* amino acid to all kinds of domesticated animals that are fed a consistent controlled diet.

A few years ago taurine briefly showed up in the spotlight with a flurry of studies about its importance in farmed fish. The aquaculture industry isn't fueled by fancy name brands, holistic claims, or appealing to wealthy clients (the way dog food can be). It's straight ag - dollars in, dollars out, maximize growth, minimize dead animals. And _they_ were onto taurine 5+ years ago. 

https://nifes.hi.no/en/taurine-is-important-for-salmon/

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/raq.12042

http://www.e-fas.org/Upload/files/E-FAS/13_배승철_1_2014_06_30.pdf

The poultry industry has known about it since the 1990's. No one even talks about it any more, the research is done and the formulas were adjusted decades ago. As with the aquaculture industry, Big Ag chicken (and turkey) are in it for weight gain, feed efficiency, and minimizing dead stock.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1608883

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25022619

Taurine deficiency wasn't killing cats, back when almost all cats ate mice. It entered the picture when cats were fed the same consistent, controlled, diet, every single day. Once the importance of taurine supplementation in felines came to light, and cat food was reformulated, the problem was basically eliminated. Obviously wild salmon aren't wasting away, unable to spawn from taurine deficiency - but the problems can be identified in _farmed_ salmon, where their diet is consistent and strictly controlled. And now (finally?) the industry is focusing on the importance of taurine in the canine diet.

I might be completely wrong, but I think this might have taken longer because most dog owners supplement the daily kibble (or whatever) with treats. Even a small piece of chicken, liver, or egg has taurine in it, and in a less altered/heat processed state. Commercially raised poultry, farmed fish, and many cats, only have access to the same thing that gets dumped out of the dry food bag. JMHO.... but it'll be interesting to see where this goes.


----------



## Jenny720

Yeah I would like to see how this goes to. I feel there is a genetic link somehow with all those golden retrievers it’s hard not to believe that. I hope this time around they learn more with the most recent study. I looked up msm looks like great plus.


----------



## Jax08

I suspect they chose goldens because they are not a breed normally suseptible and they need purebred for a study.


----------



## Heartandsoul

I came across this while researching this issue. Dr. Dodd's provided the researched info and list. It lists many of the known breeds and many many diseases. A number was assigned to each disease. Each breed is listed with their known heritable disease next to them via number.

Golden Retrievers are known for taurine deficiency # 308a. This report was printed first in 1994 but maybe the later printings were done with updates as new researched offered more info on specific breeds.

http://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf

I was watching this thread when first posted and also came across some interesting info due to a question my new vet ask me concerning zinc in my boy's diet (raw). I came across an article concerning Zinc defiency in malamutes and Huskies which stated that zinc is needed in order for the uptake of Taurine. 

I would have thought that on this list since Huskies are prone to Zinc deficiency #333 and 334, that they would also be prone to Taurine defiency but that isn't showing next to their name.

I also checked this list for Labs, Bulldogs (Bull terriers), Shish Tzu, and whippets and Mini Schnauzers (the breeds that were named in the FDA report)


----------



## Jenny720

All that read -golden retriever is a breed known to have taurine deficiency issues. Which I assume is genetic. I do wonder if these dogs have allergies and why they are fed a certain diet and is because is their immune issue causing a disruption of producing taurine. Is it those who is sensitive to chemical such as pesticides which can be found in dog food aiding all kind of issues and prohibits the body making taurine. No doubt diet with low protein will effect dogs that are taurine deficient. Some People have the same issue and are taurine deficient so a heads up for not only for dogs but people to. So all can benefit from the taurine supplement.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.mercola.com/vitamins-supplements/amp/taurine.aspx


----------



## Momto2GSDs

*FDA Answeres Some Questions*

*SOME FDA ANSWERS REGARDING INVESTIGATION BETWEEN DIET AND DCM:*



https://truthaboutpetfood.com/some-...ection-between-diet-and-canine-heart-disease/


----------



## Jenny720

Hmm I still would not feed my dog lamb and rice either if I could avoid doing so. Many studies from the 90’s that lamb and rice was suscpcious in causing these same heart problems. https://www.drjudymorgan.com/death-by-dog-food/


----------



## katdog5911

So what is the general consensus....get blood test? Supplement no matter what is being fed? Change diet? All of the above?

Is there any information regarding GSDs specifically? 

Both of mine are/were on grainfree. In the process of switching to Victor with grain. Should I be supplementing as well? Should I have gotten a blood test?


----------



## gsdsar

General consensus. 

If your dog doesn't need grain free, don't feed it. 

Find a food with Legumes, peas, lentils, potatoes that are very low on the ingredient list. Or none at all if possible. 

If you are worried, have a Taurine level checked or an echo even to see if you have a problem.


----------



## katdog5911

gsdsar said:


> General consensus.
> 
> If your dog doesn't need grain free, don't feed it.
> 
> Find a food with Legumes, peas, lentils, potatoes that are very low on the ingredient list. Or none at all if possible.
> 
> If you are worried, have a Taurine level checked or an echo even to see if you have a problem.


Would the fact that I have started the switch to a different food affect the blood test for Taurine? I don't know just how concerned I should be. Well, I am concerned enough to switch foods but should everyone be getting tested that has been feeding grain free? It's not an inexpensive test unfortunately and I have 2 GSDs. Maybe peace of mind has no price though......


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Sport Dog Food's grain free formulas don't have peas or white potatoes, although they do have sweet potatoes. No lentils or chickpeas either. This is what I'm feeding Keefer: https://sportdogfood.com/sporting-dog-grain-peas-free-whitefish-formula/


----------



## gsdsar

katdog5911 said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> 
> General consensus.
> 
> If your dog doesn't need grain free, don't feed it.
> 
> Find a food with Legumes, peas, lentils, potatoes that are very low on the ingredient list. Or none at all if possible.
> 
> If you are worried, have a Taurine level checked or an echo even to see if you have a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Would the fact that I have started the switch to a different food affect the blood test for Taurine? I don't know just how concerned I should be. Well, I am concerned enough to switch foods but should everyone be getting tested that has been feeding grain free? It's not an inexpensive test unfortunately and I have 2 GSDs. Maybe peace of mind has no price though......
Click to expand...

If it were me, and my dogs were not showing any signs of disease, I would not test. Reason being, if they are asymptomatic, but do have DCM that will be taurine responsive, changing the food should be enough. Testing is an uneeded expense.


----------



## gsdsar

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sport Dog Food's grain free formulas don't have peas or white potatoes, although they do have sweet potatoes. No lentils or chickpeas either. This is what I'm feeding Keefer: https://sportdogfood.com/sporting-dog-grain-peas-free-whitefish-formula/


That is A LOT of sweet potato. Per the FDA release, potato, including sweet potato, should not be that high on the ingredient list


----------



## Sabis mom

For anyone who can get it I found this:

https://firstmate.com/product/free-range-lamb-oats-formula/

Again, company has a great quality control record and they are super responsive to inquiries. They call this line grain friendly and have it available in lamb, fish and chicken.

It can be hard to find, but they are good at helping locate retailers nearby and it is sold online outside of Canada.


----------



## Magwart

@gsdsar, Have you heard anything in your practice about whether heartworm survivors have any special risk here? The sample sets of tested dogs are likely to skew toward dogs that are very well cared for (fed expensive foods, owners can afford cardiology visits) -- so few heartworm survivors in the group, unless rescued.


My understanding is that heartworms do some permanent damage, so I wonder if it changes the risk/susceptibility.


----------



## katdog5911

In the process of switching for Wellness Simple/Grainfree to Victor Hi Pro. Yesterday I did about 1/4 new food, 3/4 old food. My 2 yr old seems just fine today...normal poop. My 7 yr old had loose poop this morning. She wanted to eat this morning so I just gave her some chicken and a little of the old food. Would adding some slippery elm help the transition for her? 

I am going to skip the blood test. My vet agrees that both my dogs should be fine without supplements and test if I am switching food. So now I just have to hope my older girl can adjust.


----------



## wolfy dog

Jax08 said:


> There is a strong correlation between the grain free diets and a higher incidence of taurine deficiency causing DCM. Lots of info coming out of Tufts.
> 
> The grains were replaced by items with higher protein content so less meat in the food. Less meat = less taurine in the diet. Less taurine = sick or dead animals.
> 
> Grain-free. Is. A. Marketing. Ploy.


I talked to a guy at Petco who said that that study was flawed because they only tested grain free fed dogs since nowadays most are on grain free ( Petco hardly sells anything else). And of course from that population there is always a percentage that has heart issues but it will be hard to prove the cause.
I asked him if he had foods containing taurine and he said he didn't. But I found on the list of ingredients from the RC GSD adult (at Petco) that this food does contain taurine of all brands. So I don't know how much truth there is in all that info. I decided to supplement their food with some beef and chicken hearts a few times a week.


----------



## Jax08

wolfy dog said:


> I talked to a guy at Petco who said that that study was flawed because they only tested grain free fed dogs since nowadays most are on grain free ( Petco hardly sells anything else). And of course from that population there is always a percentage that has heart issues but it will be hard to prove the cause.
> I asked him if he had foods containing taurine and he said he didn't. But I found on the list of ingredients from the RC GSD adult (at Petco) that this food does contain taurine of all brands. So I don't know how much truth there is in all that info. I decided to supplement their food with some beef and chicken hearts a few times a week.



LOL So the guy at Petco knows more than the cardiologists? 



First, there hasn't been a study yet.
Second, nobody knows exactly what the issue is that's causing it. There are only theories that haven't been proven or disproved because....there is no study yet.


I wouldn't put to much stock in the Petco clerk  I'll trust the cardiologists I know personally and GSDSAR. The people who are seeing this first hand.


When you supplement - are you making sure the diet is balanced? Is there sufficient taurine in the amount of hearts given to make up any deficit? Are you giving so much you are creating issues with other nutrients? Why not just buy powdered taurine and add it to their food? 



btw...sardines are a great addition for taurine as well.


----------



## gsdsar

Magwart said:


> @gsdsar, Have you heard anything in your practice about whether heartworm survivors have any special risk here? The sample sets of tested dogs are likely to skew toward dogs that are very well cared for (fed expensive foods, owners can afford cardiology visits) -- so few heartworm survivors in the group, unless rescued.
> 
> 
> My understanding is that heartworms do some permanent damage, so I wonder if it changes the risk/susceptibility.



I have not. But we do not see a lot of HW cases.


----------



## sebrench

So I switched from the grain-free to a grain version of kibble, but potatoes are still in the list of ingredients, though not in the first ten. Does anyone know how high up in the list of ingredients potatoes have to be in order to pose a problem?


----------



## gsdsar

sebrench said:


> So I switched from the grain-free to a grain version of kibble, but potatoes are still in the list of ingredients, though not in the first ten. Does anyone know how high up in the list of ingredients potatoes have to be in order to pose a problem?



We are telling people to avoid if in top ten or before any minerals are listed if possible. And if it's just potatoes then you are probably good if it's that low on the ingredients list.


----------



## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> @*gsdsar*, Have you heard anything in your practice about whether heartworm survivors have any special risk here? The sample sets of tested dogs are likely to skew toward dogs that are very well cared for (fed expensive foods, owners can afford cardiology visits) -- so few heartworm survivors in the group, unless rescued.
> 
> 
> My understanding is that heartworms do some permanent damage, so I wonder if it changes the risk/susceptibility.


That has been my concern since this started. Lil is on Acana, I mix diff proteins/flavours incl the limited (more starch/legumes listed) along with the higher protein "heritage" (mostly)
Everything probably boils down to what RAW feeders have been saying all along...Kibble is toxic due to the processing and how ingredients interact over an extended period of time.
She will be going RAW soon. Once cleared of HW...


The Heart is a muscle, and a muscle can be strengthened, and tissues repaired.


----------



## barnyard

This thread has been very helpful. I have switched two of mine from the Nature's Domain Salmon to Pro plan sport for now. I needed to switch anyway as my younger dogs need more calories in the summer due to activity level. Ultimately I might switch to Victor but both are doing well so I might just leave them on the Pro Plan. I was still feeding the grain free after my older, allergy girl passed away in May. The other older one is on prescription food so no grain free for her anyway.
I recently read a post on Annamaet's website I thought was interesting. Annamaet Petfoods
My vet said she hasn't seen any cases yet but she thinks steering away from grain free unless there is an allergy issue is best.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

There is a face book group for this now called "Canine Taurine Deficiency DCM"!


https://www.facebook.com/groups/613256769040202/?ref=gysj


----------



## Muskeg

It's interesting to think of the parallels between gluten-free and grain free. Seems like both kind of took off at the same time and people can easily be convinced it's healthier. It's not, unless you are actually allergic/sensitive or have (human) celiac disease. 

Gluten free foods usually exhange gluten for some sort of sugar. Sugar, for someone who doesn't have sensitivity, is worse for a human than gluten (a protein). I'd argue the same for peas and potatoes vs. rice in dogs - and the DCM issue seems to support this. 

I suppose eating clean and raw is the best way to go, but most of us unfortunately don't live on self supporting farms, or can afford to buy all local, all organic. Particularly to feed a carnivore-pet.


----------



## Magwart

barnyard said:


> I recently read a post on Annamaet's website I thought was interesting. Annamaet Petfoods.



Thank VERY much for sharing this -- it's very helpful that they linked back to the '03 lamb and rice taurine scare. I had been vaguely aware of it back then but had mostly forgotten it. I went and dug up some of the research that came on the heels of that '03 taurine scare and it's VERY interesting:


This 2003 study comparing lamb and rice with chicken-based food also gave antibiotics to inhibit gut bacteria:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14507418



This 2006 study in Newfies found "Dogs with low plasma taurine were older, less active, had more medical problems and treatments, and had lower plasma albumin, cyst(e)ine, tryptophan, and _α_-amino-n-butyric acid concentrations than the other dogs (_P_ < 0.05)."
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/136/10/2525/4746691


And another in 2006 showing beet pulp reduces taurine absorption:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4971673/
(..."by decreasing the protein digestibility (sulfur amino acid bioavailability), by enhancing fecal excretion of BA and possibly, by enhancing degradation of taurine by gut microflora in dogs.")


----------



## mmags

I've been reading through all of the good information and replied from everyone on this thread. Could a possible link to the taurine deficiency be as simple as too little protein? We know taurine comes from protein and that dogs are carnivores. Most of the kibbles that people feed on average I would say are below 30% protein. If the diet is low in protein, then it would be low in taurine, theoretically, regardless of grains or not. I would like to see taurine levels in dogs who consume foods with 30% protein minimum compared to ones who eat below that. Most foods are around 22-26%. Its safe to say that raw fed dogs may not be deficient due to the meat not being broken down or processed and also that those dogs are getting a high protein diet.


----------



## Sabis mom

mmags said:


> I've been reading through all of the good information and replied from everyone on this thread. Could a possible link to the taurine deficiency be as simple as too little protein? We know taurine comes from protein and that dogs are carnivores. Most of the kibbles that people feed on average I would say are below 30% protein. If the diet is low in protein, then it would be low in taurine, theoretically, regardless of grains or not. I would like to see taurine levels in dogs who consume foods with 30% protein minimum compared to ones who eat below that. Most foods are around 22-26%. Its safe to say that raw fed dogs may not be deficient due to the meat not being broken down or processed and also that those dogs are getting a high protein diet.


The foods being fed to the dogs showing up with DCM are all over 30%. Higher protein is NOT the answer. Dogs are not carnivores and to much protein causes issues of it's own.


----------



## mmags

Sabis mom said:


> The foods being fed to the dogs showing up with DCM are all over 30%. Higher protein is NOT the answer. Dogs are not carnivores and to much protein causes issues of it's own.


Fromm duck and sweet potato was being discussed as a food in one of the studies that showed dogs on this food had low taurine levels. This food has a protein of 24%, so no, what you said is not true. Also, dogs are carnivores, to deny that is to deny the facts of their biology in regards to their teeth, digestive system, and nature. Just because they can eat some plant matter does not deny that they are carnivores. They do not need vegetation to survive and thrive. High protein does NOT cause issues in healthy dogs with no pre-existing health conditions. I am not sure where you are getting backup from what you've said.


----------



## Sabis mom

Dogs are NOT obligate carnivores like cats are and they do need some plant matter in their diets. Acana is consistently showing up in the reports with 31%. 
Contrary to popular belief, meat does not equal protein and various studies have shown that. 

If you want to play the wolf card some estimates put wolves in Canada with diets comprised of about 70% vegetation and small rodents(which provide grains and vegetation, high calcium and phosphorous and very LOW proteins)
Otherwise pay attention to the fact that the domestic dog has evolved eating human garbage and actually has a different digestive system then its wild counterparts.

A vast majority of pet dogs do extremely poorly on high protein diets, displaying an increase in digestive issues, skin problems, allergy issues and joint development. Ideal protein levels for pet dogs sit somewhere in the mid to high 20's, lower for dogs with known health issues and slightly higher for actual working dogs.


----------



## mmags

Sabis mom said:


> Dogs are NOT obligate carnivores like cats are and they do need some plant matter in their diets. Acana is consistently showing up in the reports with 31%.
> Contrary to popular belief, meat does not equal protein and various studies have shown that.
> 
> If you want to play the wolf card some estimates put wolves in Canada with diets comprised of about 70% vegetation and small rodents(which provide grains and vegetation, high calcium and phosphorous and very LOW proteins)
> Otherwise pay attention to the fact that the domestic dog has evolved eating human garbage and actually has a different digestive system then its wild counterparts.
> 
> A vast majority of pet dogs do extremely poorly on high protein diets, displaying an increase in digestive issues, skin problems, allergy issues and joint development. Ideal protein levels for pet dogs sit somewhere in the mid to high 20's, lower for dogs with known health issues and slightly higher for actual working dogs.


Sounds like we may have to agree to disagree


----------



## Jax08

Sabis mom said:


> The foods being fed to the dogs showing up with DCM are all over 30%. Higher protein is NOT the answer. Dogs are not carnivores and to much protein causes issues of it's own.


Cuz...science. lol


----------



## GatorBytes

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sit...ween-dog-food-taurine-deficiency-and-dcm.aspx


IDK if this link has been posted yet. But basically says if you are feeding a starchy/carb (grain-free) kibble, then add a can of sardines once a week. 


Her source for this article relates to the degradation of foods due to the combination of ingredients in the extrusion process.


^^^
*Are All the Starchy Ingredients in Grain-Free Kibble to Blame?*

Since grain-free dry dog food is a relatively new concept, it's quite possible there's something about the high-starch (carb) content in these diets that depletes taurine levels and/or makes the taurine less bioavailable. The problem might be related to a chemical reaction (called the Maillard reaction) between taurine and a carbohydrate during the extrusion process that depletes the digestible taurine level in the food.
And while legumes are being singled out as the potential problematic ingredient, grain-free kibble is often higher in both whole carbohydrates and purified starches (e.g., pea starch, potato starch and tapioca starch) than grain-based dry dog food. The higher the starch level in any pet food, the less protein is included. 
In a study published in 1996 on the effect of high heat processing of cat food on taurine availability, the researchers noted, "These results suggest that Maillard reaction products promote an enteric flora that favors degradation of taurine and decreases recycling of taurine by the enterohepatic route."8
Said another way: The byproducts of the chemical reaction between amino acids and sugars (carbs) in dry cat food alter the microbiome (gut bacteria), causing degradation of the taurine in the food, reducing its availability to the cat, and also preventing the taurine from being efficiently recycled by the cat's body.
An earlier study published in 1990 that looked at taurine levels in a commercial diet that was fed heat-processed to some cats and frozen-preserved to others drew the same conclusion. The researchers stated " … processing affects the digestive and/or absorptive process in a manner that increases the catabolism of taurine by gastrointestinal microorganisms."9
*Other Factors That Influence the Taurine Content of Pet Food/Feed*

A 2003 study published in the Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition looked at taurine concentrations in the ingredients often used in both home prepared and commercial pet diets, as well as how cooking influences taurine content.10
The researchers reported that animal muscle tissue, especially marine animals, contains high levels of taurine, whereas plant-based ingredients contained either low or undetectable amounts. Also, the amount of taurine that remains after cooking is somewhat dependent on the method of food preparation. When an ingredient was cooked in water (e.g., boiling or basting), more taurine was lost unless the water used to cook the food was included with the meal.
Food preparation that minimized water loss (e.g., baking or frying) retained more of the taurine, however, it's important to note that heat processing in any form destroys anywhere from 50 to 100 percent of taurine present in raw food. In addition, extended periods of storage of processed pet foods, and freezing, thawing and grinding of raw pet food also depletes taurine content.11
Another UC-Davis study published in 2016 evaluated the taurine status of large breed dogs fed low-protein diets (lamb and rice formulas), since they are now known to be at increased risk for taurine deficiency-related DCM.12 The researchers specifically looked at the ingredients rice bran and beet pulp used in many of these diets, and determined that while rice bran didn't seem to be a primary cause of taurine deficiency, beet pulp may be a culprit.
Both rice bran and beet pulp bind bile acids (bile acids should be recycled, which effectively recycles taurine) in the small intestine, and increase excretion (which is undesirable) because it depletes taurine by interfering with the enterohepatic recycling of taurine-conjugated bile salts and lowers total body taurine levels.
Grain-free/"low-protein" commercial diets are very high in carbohydrates, which displace amino acids. They also contain anti-nutrients (e.g., saponins, trypsin inhibitors, phytates and lectins) that may interfere with taurine absorption. When you add in the high-heat processing used to manufacture kibble, it's hardly surprising these diets aren't an adequate source of taurine for many dogs.
*How You Can Protect Your Dog*

Those of us who are passionate about animal nutrition have been having a painful awakening for some time now about just how nutrient-deficient many dogs and cats are today. The taurine-DCM issue in dogs is yet another example that animals need much higher levels of bioavailable amino acids from a variety of sources than most are consuming.
Unfortunately, some processed pet food advocates are using the link between grain-free dog foods and DCM to try to push pet parents back in the direction of grain-based diets. Don't be fooled. The problem with grain-free formulas isn't the lack of grains! It's the high level of starchy carbohydrates coupled with the extreme high-heat processing methods used to produce these diets.
*Until we have much more information on the subject, my current recommendation is to supplement all dogs with high-taurine foods, no matter what type of diet they're eating. An easy way to do this is to simply mix a can of sardines into your pet's meal once a week. You can also find the taurine content of many other foods on page two of **this study** and also in this **Raw Feeding Community article**.* 
If you have a breed or breed mix known to be susceptible to DCM (e.g., Golden Retriever, Doberman Pinscher, Cocker Spaniel, Boxer, Great Dane, Scottish Deerhound, Irish Wolfhound, Saint Bernard, Afghan Hound, Dalmatian, Portuguese Water dog, Old English Sheepdog, Newfoundland), especially if you've been feeding grain-free kibble, or if for some other reason you're concerned about your dog's heart health, I recommend following Dr. Joshua Stern's four-step process outlined above, starting with a visit to your veterinarian.


----------



## gsdsar

I'm just sitting here, waiting for people to realize that a good number of the dogs in the study so far ARE NOT taurine deficient. And that by focusing solely and relying solely in Taurine levels and amounts is not necessarily going to help. 

And hopefully while we collectively try to nail down the ins and out of bioavailable Taurine, the study will figure out what is ACTUALLY happening.


----------



## Magwart

mmags said:


> Fromm duck and sweet potato was being discussed as a food in one of the studies that showed dogs on this food had low taurine levels.



I'm afraid you may have misread the posts about the Fromm (I made them). That Fromm food came up as an EXCEPTION -- one that doesn't fit the pattern identified by the FDA (it *has grain* AND *taurine added*, so seeing it correlate to a few dogs with low taurine was astonishing since many of the other foods were different in that they're grain free without added taurine). It doesn't "prove" anything other than that the FDA warning about grain-free may not have captured the full complexity of the problem. In other words, it doesn't have peas (which some think might be blocking absorption), it's not the kind of "exotic" formula the FDA described and it has added taurine -- so why are _some _dogs not absorbing that added taurine?! Additionally, many dogs fed the EXACT same food had different results -- with a few coming up low, and several others perfectly normal! 

I can't overstate the importance of actually READING the spreadsheet Jax08 posted -- it names names and connects brands to taurine test results. There are lots of surprises on that spreadsheet -- including several high pro foods with dog coming up low on taurine. Remember, protein can be boosted with gluten AND with legumes, so that may not tell us all that much. Additionally, boosting it with rendered chicken meal (boiled into oblivion) isn't likely to be much of a source of taurine, even if a food is PACKED full of it. Part of what's been happening in this thread is that many of us have had some pre-conceptions challenged when we viewed the data on the spreadsheet with an open mind, and started working through it.

I also would suggest going back to the links to Monica Segal's blog/FB posts that are up above in this thread, and not skip those -- they're important! Monica claims to have worked with clients who had raw-fed dogs that came up with low taurine tests, and so raw feeding is not sufficiently protective. Jax08 pointed out the problems with grinding and other forms of processing that degrade the taurine in raw-fed dogs. This is what I mean about this thread being really interesting for challenging pre-conceptions!

I think if you're fair-minded about going through all of this, you'll see why even those of us who feed raw are tending to end up on the side of "supplement the taurine just to be safe" while the researchers sort this out. Feeding heart meat or sardines might be sufficiently protective, but there are a lot of unknowns right now. It's not simple, and there seem likely to be some confounding variables.


Oh -- and my vet was told by the UCD researchers that they finished the initial study and have a manuscript in progress. However, they are continuing to collect data from owners who test taurine and are willing to share medical records, so if you do test, and you want to be part of the research, have your vet get in touch with UC Davis' Veterinary Cardiology Dept.!


----------



## Beau's Mom

Here, here! Waiting with bated breath for more work on this. 

I can’t resist a comment on the carnivore thing, though. I feed raw, low veg, and Beau seems to thrive on it. But....

Dogs produce amylase, in amounts that appear to vary across breeds, and across individuals within breeds. Amylase production and in what amounts is coded genetically, and has been hypothesized to be coincident with if not a consequence of domestication (starch being an abundant source of food for dogs hanging around villages, high amylase producers more likely to succeed there). Dogs as a species have probably been adapted to process at least some starch in the diet for thousands of years. Among the breeds/dogs studied, GSDs fall in the middle w.r.t. average efficiency of starch digestion within the breed. Some dog breeds have adapted decently to starch in the diet, some not so much, and some breeds/individual dogs thrive on it.

At least some dogs don’t produce much amylase at all, and some whole breeds tend to be low amylase producers (I think Samoyeds are a breed with generally low amylase, my memory not what it once was). But some dogs do really well on a fair amount of starch in their diet.

Bigger samples would be the next step, but it seems pretty clear that dogs as a (sub?)species are definitely not obligate carnivores. I don’t think they are obligate omnivores, either. They’re scavengers, and adaptable.


----------



## barnyard

gsdsar said:


> I'm just sitting here, waiting for people to realize that a good number of the dogs in the study so far ARE NOT taurine deficient. And that by focusing solely and relying solely in Taurine levels and amounts is not necessarily going to help.
> 
> And hopefully while we collectively try to nail down the ins and out of bioavailable Taurine, the study will figure out what is ACTUALLY happening.


Thank you for reminding me about the dogs that had adequate taurine levels but were still affected. Peas have anti nutrients which can interfere with the proper absorption of nutrients. Not normally a problem when there is adequate meat, but if the protein is coming from mostly peas maybe taurine could still be adequate in the body but the body isn't able to properly absorb and utilize it. Now I get why the thought is that peas and maybe potatoes are blocking absorption.
I don't know, but I'm glad the initial part of the study is done and will be out soon.


----------



## mmags

Magwart said:


> I'm afraid you may have misread the posts about the Fromm (I made them). That Fromm food came up as an EXCEPTION -- one that doesn't fit the pattern identified by the FDA (it *has grain* AND *taurine added*, so seeing it correlate to a few dogs with low taurine was astonishing since many of the other foods were different in that they're grain free without added taurine). It doesn't "prove" anything other than that the FDA warning about grain-free may not have captured the full complexity of the problem. In other words, it doesn't have peas (which some think might be blocking absorption), it's not the kind of "exotic" formula the FDA described and it has added taurine -- so why are _some _dogs not absorbing that added taurine?! Additionally, many dogs fed the EXACT same food had different results -- with a few coming up low, and several others perfectly normal!
> 
> I can't overstate the importance of actually READING the spreadsheet Jax08 posted -- it names names and connects brands to taurine test results. There are lots of surprises on that spreadsheet -- including several high pro foods with dog coming up low on taurine. Remember, protein can be boosted with gluten AND with legumes, so that may not tell us all that much. Additionally, boosting it with rendered chicken meal (boiled into oblivion) isn't likely to be much of a source of taurine, even if a food is PACKED full of it. Part of what's been happening in this thread is that many of us have had some pre-conceptions challenged when we viewed the data on the spreadsheet with an open mind, and started working through it.
> 
> I also would suggest going back to the links to Monica Segal's blog/FB posts that are up above in this thread, and not skip those -- they're important! Monica claims to have worked with clients who had raw-fed dogs that came up with low taurine tests, and so raw feeding is not sufficiently protective. Jax08 pointed out the problems with grinding and other forms of processing that degrade the taurine in raw-fed dogs. This is what I mean about this thread being really interesting for challenging pre-conceptions!
> 
> I think if you're fair-minded about going through all of this, you'll see why even those of us who feed raw are tending to end up on the side of "supplement the taurine just to be safe" while the researchers sort this out. Feeding heart meat or sardines might be sufficiently protective, but there are a lot of unknowns right now. It's not simple, and there seem likely to be some confounding variables.
> 
> 
> Oh -- and my vet was told by the UCD researchers that they finished the initial study and have a manuscript in progress. However, they are continuing to collect data from owners who test taurine and are willing to share medical records, so if you do test, and you want to be part of the research, have your vet get in touch with UC Davis' Veterinary Cardiology Dept.!


I should have specified not just high protein but high protein from meat content is important, because like you said protein can be coming from multiple sources some being grains and legumes. I understand that meat meals have much taurine taken out, but I would still say that a high protein food majority from meat content would be a safer bet than the opposite. Ill read into the posts more in the meantime. I think people also need to understand that some dogs simply have genetics that will cause them to not be as easily susceptible to heart disease regardless of taurine levels while some dogs cannot get away with it. Just like how some humans can smoke until they die and never get disease and another will smoke for 10 years and get heart disease or lung cancer.


----------



## mmags

Beau's Mom said:


> Here, here! Waiting with bated breath for more work on this.
> 
> I can’t resist a comment on the carnivore thing, though. I feed raw, low veg, and Beau seems to thrive on it. But....
> 
> Dogs produce amylase, in amounts that appear to vary across breeds, and across individuals within breeds. Amylase production and in what amounts is coded genetically, and has been hypothesized to be coincident with if not a consequence of domestication (starch being an abundant source of food for dogs hanging around villages, high amylase producers more likely to succeed there). Dogs as a species have probably been adapted to process at least some starch in the diet for thousands of years. Among the breeds/dogs studied, GSDs fall in the middle w.r.t. average efficiency of starch digestion within the breed. Some dog breeds have adapted decently to starch in the diet, some not so much, and some breeds/individual dogs thrive on it.
> 
> At least some dogs don’t produce much amylase at all, and some whole breeds tend to be low amylase producers (I think Samoyeds are a breed with generally low amylase, my memory not what it once was). But some dogs do really well on a fair amount of starch in their diet.
> 
> Bigger samples would be the next step, but it seems pretty clear that dogs as a (sub?)species are definitely not obligate carnivores. I don’t think they are obligate omnivores, either. They’re scavengers, and adaptable.


Good information there. I think another important enzyme to be talked about though is cellulase which dogs do not produce. That is the enzyme required to break down plant matter in order to turn the remainder into glucose for energy. That is why dogs are not efficient at digesting whole form grains or plant matter for protein/energy. If a dog is getting plant matter from a dead animal then that may be fine because its already been broken down, but for a dog to try and eat whole form veggies, fruits or grains may very well be pointless.


----------



## Beau's Mom

I don’t think humans produce cellulase, either. Last I checked.


----------



## mmags

Yes that is true but humans have a much longer digestive tract than dogs and we can break down plant matter through fermentation because its in our system longer. Dogs lack the enzyme and also have a very short digestive system so foods move quickly. That is why for humans plant matter can be used as a pre-biotic.


----------



## Beau's Mom

It’s actually more putrefactive action that goes on in the human gut, and it occurs in the canine gut, too. Fermentation is what herbivore guts do. More bacterial activity in dog digestion than in the wolf. Yes, digestive tract is shorter than humans, more like wolf’s, but still much better than the wolf’s at deriving nutrients from carbohydrates. And the dog’s small intestine % of the total gastrointestinal volume is between that of humans and wolves, and in keeping with ratios typical of omnivores.

Besides, there are other genetic differences between dogs and wolves w.r.t. digestion of carbohydrates besides amylase production, where dogs are genetically coded for better carb digestion than wolves. For example, dogs produce a longer version of maltase than wolves do, and that longer version is more like the maltase produced by herbivores and (other?) omnivores. 

There’s more but I’ll quit now. Sorry for hijacking this thread!


----------



## Sabis mom

Animals that depend solely on animal flesh for their nutrient requirements are called obligate carnivores while those that also consume non-animal food are called facultative carnivores.[2] Omnivores also consume both animal and non-animal food, and, apart from the more general definition,* there is no clearly defined ratio of plant to animal material that would distinguish a facultative carnivore from an omnivore*


----------



## Nigel

Sabis mom said:


> Animals that depend solely on animal flesh for their nutrient requirements are called obligate carnivores while those that also consume non-animal food are called facultative carnivores.[2] Omnivores also consume both animal and non-animal food, and, apart from the more general definition,* there is no clearly defined ratio of plant to animal material that would distinguish a facultative carnivore from an omnivore*


This made me think about those vegan dog foods. I'm guessing they may be suspect as well?


----------



## Sabis mom

Nigel said:


> This made me think about those vegan dog foods. I'm guessing they may be suspect as well?


I am dead against vegan dogfoods. Whatever they are dogs are NOT herbivores and I cannot imagine that a vegan diet is healthy for them.


----------



## Magwart

Well, Wysong made one of the first vegan pet foods and actually says it should be fed *with fresh meat, *but people somehow miss that part. I remember it being on their documents with the "rationale for this food" that they circulated in the early 00's, so I think it's always been marketed thus. In their own words: "This meatless vegan cat food and dog food is excellent for elimination protocols and as a base to a fresh meat source."
https://www.wysong.net/vegan

It was an early precursor to base mixes for allergy dogs -- and it includes taurine. The market's moved way beyond it in terms of better options, but I don't want to see their food misunderstood. They're a quirky company, but Dr. Wysong was pushing for fresh meat being added to dogs' diets even when it cost him customers in the old days before it was trendy.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I just saw this today: https://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/2018/08/30/the-heart-of-the-matter/


Lots of good info.


----------



## barnyard

The newest food table update is up on the cardiomyopathy facebook page. It's dated 9/1. I don't have a Facebook page any longer but was still able to see it. Interestingly, there are a few grain dog foods on there, which may indicate an issue with the individual dog or something else the dog was eating prior to the grain food or something else. I don't know. But by and large, it's mostly the grain free dog foods.
I just realized my cat is still on a grain free diet. She does eat a wet grain food, but her dry food is grain free. It might be fine for cats but it has peas in it so I'm dumping it in the trash and going to the store tomorrow to get regular food just in case. It's just not worth the risk.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

barnyard said:


> The newest food table update is up on the cardiomyopathy facebook page. It's dated 9/1.


Do you have a link to that?


----------



## Magwart

The Google Sheet linked on Page 2 or 3 of this thread has also been updated -- reload it if you haven't looked at it in a while -- lots more cases, lots more brands, including some that are the kind of manufacturer that some sources (ahem--and Tufts!) suggested would be safe because they had a long history of making dog diets and are the opposite of "exotic" (like Purina). There's also some commercial raw brands posted in it now. HOWEVER, there are also some foods with WAY more cases than others.


It's super-interesting to me that brands that blasted out an email messaging some version of "doesn't affect us, nothing to worry about with our foods" early on when the warning was announced haven't sent out updates that they're doing more investigation because it _might _affect them for some dogs, once they have reports that a few dogs fed their foods are in fact impacted.


----------



## Muskeg

How much skewing of data when it comes to dog foods correlated to DCM do you think has to do with the fact that "most" people who feed Purina type diets couldn't afford a visit to a specialist like a cardiologist. While "most" people who feed expensive, grain-free foods would be more able to afford advanced diagnostics for their dog?


----------



## barnyard

Most though not all of the Pro Plan were switched to it within the last 6 months. And most were the sensitive skin and stomach and getting retested so I suspect they were dogs that were switched to that food due to the taurine issue. Victor Professional was also on there and that may be the same situation. Fromm Gold, too, as well as a couple Hills. Or it could be dogs that may have had an issue of low taurine anyway. I don't know. Most were Goldens, though not all.
None of the dogs on Royal Canon breed specific that I recall were having low taurine and I think that the dogs affected are mostly getting switched to that. I always thought that the Royal Canin breed specific was sort of silly but then I noticed the Chewy page notes that additional taurine is added to the RC Golden retriever food to help support their cardiac health. I have to say that this has really had me rethink dog food.
Acana has already changed some of their formulas. It makes me wonder what some of these other foods will do and what the new starch or food additions will be.
Edit: I just checked and the Victor professional cases were all dogs that were switched to Victor after being diagnosed. I think that is the case with many of the grain foods on the list, though not all.


----------



## Magwart

Muskeg said:


> How much skewing of data when it comes to dog foods correlated to DCM do you think has to do with the fact that "most" people who feed Purina type diets couldn't afford a visit to a specialist like a cardiologist. While "most" people who feed expensive, grain-free foods would be more able to afford advanced diagnostics for their dog?



I think it's VERY possible there are lots of unreported/undiagnosed cases of cardiac failure in dogs who simply drop dead without the owners knowing why. Many, many dogs don't get annual check-ups, much less access to specialty care. Owners just can't afford it. Even those dogs getting only the most basic annual check-ups may not be screened carefully for DCM unless the vet happens to pick up a sign of it.

I had a very sweet, rescued Doberman decades ago when I was young, and she suddenly dropped dead at just 7 years old -- after she died, a vet told me back then that the breed had a "sudden death gene." I think what that really meant was that they were genetically predisposed to sudden cardiac failure from DCM -- but I didn't know anything about it back then, and no vet ever warned me about the very serious risk in Dobermans. Being young and just out of college, we did her annual wellness visits at a different discount vet clinic every year with a coupon, as she was always so healthy. As I got older and wiser, I came to believe that the vets at those discount clinics just didn't catch her DCM with their quick, routine exams -- and I didn't know to ask them to test for it specifically back then, due to breed susceptibility. I always wish I could go back in time and bring her forward to now, when I know more and could have given her the best specialty care....but there are no do-overs in life.


----------



## katdog5911

I just don't know what to think. Foods like Royal Canin and Purina are now the safe foods? It is hard to adjust my thinking to that. I am at a loss. Switched to Victor but read that the alfalfa can cause bloat..... Think I will start feeding Alpo.


----------



## Magwart

Why don't you feed what your dog does well on, and either test or add taurine? Until we know more, there's a lot of speculation. Aren't there some Victor foods without alfalfa?


----------



## katdog5911

Magwart said:


> Why don't you feed what your dog does well on, and either test or add taurine? Until we know more, there's a lot of speculation. Aren't there some Victor foods without alfalfa?


I think I looked at them all and they all include dehydrated alfalfa meal....sigh. Both of mine just switched over so nicely. Less poop too. But the bloat thing scares me.


----------



## barnyard

I don't know about the bloat threat. I know for horses too much alfalfa can cause bloat. And it causes problems with rabbits in too much quantities but I haven't heard of a problem with dogs. Maybe call Victor and ask why it's in there. A lot of people feed Victor and I haven't heard about that being an issue, but every dog is different. I think your dogs were on Wellness before? They have some grain based foods as well that might be worth looking at. 
I wouldn't feed Alpo but I understand the feeling. This is frustrating!


----------



## Jenny720

That’s a very interesting update it seems like almost every dog food is Involved in some way. I I feed Fromm large breed gold - topped off with dehydrated beef patties or fresh food. it is interesting I saw they just recently changed their recipe- is there an recommended affordable organic kibble out there. I feel like its the insecticides possibly causing issues. It seems like very few foods are 100% safe to eat including in the animal world. Tomato pumice and alfalfa were always iffy ingredients in dog food but not easy to find a food without them in it. It is crazy overwhelming. 
https://frommfamily.com/connect/gold-update
Old and new recipe


----------



## mmags

Thats interesting that they changed. I see they added chicken broth and chicken liver and moved duck down further as well as flip flopped a few of the grains. I would be happy as someone who fed this to see the broth and liver additions, though Im not sure how much of a difference it will make.


----------



## Jenny720

Yes i felt it a bit interesting with all that is going on so I wanted to post it. Mentioned the new changes to the transitions should be easy.


----------



## Magwart

Fromm sent an email that said that the change was about sustainability of their duck source -- they apparently can't get enough duck from a sustainable source in Europe to satisfy all their demand for it, so they're reformulating some foods in the Gold line to remove it or use less. I think this doesn't affect Four Star foods though. Here's what their website says:

"Outside factors that include ingredient quality and availability, together with the ever growing popularity of our best-selling line of dry dog foods, have determined that duck—as a primary protein source in Gold recipes—will not be a sustainable ingredient long-term. There is uncertainty whether our European suppliers can provide enough duck to meet our standards for quality in the future. Domestic duck production will not be sufficient given that our per capita consumption of duck in the USA is extremely small compared to European and Asian countries. Also an escalation in global trade wars has brought an additional risk for supply interruptions. Without an ample, growing, and stable global supply of duck, Fromm has elected to update the formulations and ingredient panels of all Gold grain-inclusive dry dog recipes. This will assure continuity of product excellence and availability for our neighborhood pet retail partners and consumers for years to come."


It doesn't appear to be DCM-related (at least if we take them at their word).


----------



## Jenny720

Yes I read it was a duck issue but the timing was what got me -could be coincidence but one never knows. Dogs have always done great on Fromm so no complaints.


----------



## Magwart

What I like about how Fromm went about it is the transparency. Compare the how they went about this ingredient change -- putting old and new up side by side, and telling their customers it was coming -- to this story about the quiet reformulations to increase legumes (and get rid of expensive ingredients, like salmon) that several brands have done (including Champion):
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/is-change-in-pet-food-a-good-thing/


----------



## Jenny720

Yes yes very true!!!! Never had issues with Fromm and always are very quick to get back to me if I had any questions. The side by side photo is a good sign. Seeing that photo of a can ken-l -ration in that link you posted took me way back in time lol! A good link.


----------



## LuvShepherds

I took my older dog off Fromm for Zignature but it has peas and very limited ingredients, so I’m wondering if I should go back to Fromm and see how she does. She had abdominal bleeding twice and the vet thought it might be food, but that is now gone. She was also chewing up Nylabones at the same times, so I took those away. If it was your dog, what would you do?


----------



## Muskeg

I picked up a 1-lb container of chicken livers at the grocery stores for under $2.00. Just in case, I think I'll top my dogs' food with some chopped up, cooked liver. This might be an easy option for people who are concerned. It smells, but it's a simple, inexpensive way to add taurine each week. 

I feed Canidae- grain-contain, "Big Bag" ALS, I haven't seen it listed as a food with issues, but the dogs love liver anyway.


----------



## Jax08

Liver has a ton of vitamin A.


----------



## Muskeg

I don't give them a ton, just maybe 1/5 of a chicken liver each, crumbled on the food. 

I used to do this all the time, just as a topper.


----------



## barnyard

Mine love chicken livers. I cut them up and put in the freezer and pull them out for a treat over the food. I think sardines are still their favorite though.
Luvshepherds, Zignature did have a number of dogs that had low taurine, and/or had developed heart problems. I think the food spreadsheet is back on page 4 or 5 on this thread. It was just updated again on 9/7.


----------



## LuvShepherds

I appreciate this thread. Thank you all for starting it and sharing this information. As a result, I’m switching my older dog off LID and back onto a more varied diet.


----------



## Sabis mom

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/the-most-recent-fda-betrayal/


Just wanted to drop this here. Trying not to get caught up in the hype and at this point all sides seem to have an agenda, so I read. Try to read between the lines and hope I can interpret it all.


----------



## gsdsar

Sabis mom said:


> https://truthaboutpetfood.com/the-most-recent-fda-betrayal/
> 
> 
> Just wanted to drop this here. Trying not to get caught up in the hype and at this point all sides seem to have an agenda, so I read. Try to read between the lines and hope I can interpret it all.


I am dumber for having read that. Sorry. I have never seen an article so adept at accusing others of lying while spouting half truth and flat misinformation as that one. 

Of course it took the cake when the author suggested as proof that FDA is not in it to help animals because they did not contact Dr Karen Becker!! 

Conspiracy theorist not even at their finest.


----------



## barnyard

gsdsar said:


> I am dumber for having read that. Sorry. I have never seen an article so adept at accusing others of lying while spouting half truth and flat misinformation as that one.
> 
> Of course it took the cake when the author suggested as proof that FDA is not in it to help animals because they did not contact Dr Karen Becker!!
> 
> Conspiracy theorist not even at their finest.


You'll love her newest article even more. Basically suggesting that the vets involved are just trying to market the big three companies and that's irresponsible in my opinion. Maybe the researchers will find that the cause of the DCM is other than grain free food, but in the meantime if there is concern about these foods we need to know. No one has to switch to Purina, RC, or Hills. 
Regarding the other article on the supposed FDA betrayal, it is common for regulators to notify the trade groups and companies before releasing info to the public. So it's not just the FDA or pet food companies.


----------



## mmags

Adding onto what some of you said below, I follow a huge FB page for Goldens on this DCM issue. Anyone who trys to speak up or against Hills, RC, or Purina basically gets bashed and then vets come on saying those are the only real quality foods with science and trials to back them up. They are pushing those foods as the only safe foods. I even got banned for a few days because I put up the ingredient labels of those foods and went over why the soy, gluten meal, and low animal protein count were probably not the best ingredients for a canine as well as the many recalls those companies have had. Saw a guy get bashed for posting that he switched to Ziwipeak. The list goes on. There are plenty of great grain free options that arent full of fillers.


----------



## crittersitter

I'd take her off of the heavy pea diet just to be safe. My older dogs are both on Canine Caviar which is a really limited diet, Chicken & Millet basically. They both do very well on it since they each have their own diet sensitivities but tolerate this food very well after trying many brands. My young Pup has been on Fromm, Diamond Naturals (Yeah, I know - yuck...but he was having diarrhea on Fromm) and now I'm putting him on Victor. Two of my old girls that passed this year both had gastrointestinal bleeding years ago and come to think of it they were on a grain free diet with peas, Nature's Domain. My pack has nylabones too and I've never had a problem with them. I just make sure I throw them out once they start looking bad like they could bite off chunks of them. Hope your girl does well on whatever you go with.


----------



## crittersitter

I hate some of those fb pages and forums. I've been kicked out or left on my own some as well. No open discussion is allowed and so many people that love their dogs and want to do what's best for them could learn from others if only it wasn't run like a dictatorship. :-(


----------



## katdog5911

I joined the DCM FB page to be able to get more information. I am concerned as my 2 yr old male has been eating different foods all containing the suspect ingredients pretty much his whole life. I switched him over to Victor and Eagle Pack about 2 months ago to get away from the legumes and potatoes. But the FB group is pretty strong in recommending Hills, Purina, and Royal Canin. 

I keep wondering whether or not to test his taurine levels and/or have an echo....which is what the group recommends. Since I already switched his food I need to wait before taurine testing. My vet feels that switching his diet is the way to go...no need for further testing as if it is diet related dcm, it will reverse. But the FB page scares the crap out of me...what if he already has early dcm and needs something more than just diet change? This whole thing is driving me nuts.


----------



## mmags

Here is the problem, no one even knows what the diet related cause of taurine deficient DCM really is. The claimed suspect ingredients of peas, legumes, and potatoes are a GUESS based off of a slight correlation. The studies are inconclusive. This has caused all of the vets and animal nutritionists to jump on the back of the big companies like Purina, Royal Canin, Hills, Eukanuba etc and recommend their foods like they are the only nutritionally sound option. These pages are claiming that if a dog food company does not have veterinary animal nutritionists formulating the foods, then they are trash. The same people are defending corn and bi-products as the highest end ingredients. Regardless of all of this I will stick to feeding what has worked for me and adding healthy things like eggs and sardines. I wouldnt worry so much yet because no one has any idea the real cause. Could be genetics as a lot of dogs on grain free tested fine for taurine and DCM free. Some on grain inclusive had deficiencies and DCM. The main breed studied is Goldens which are susceptible to this and other things. There are a few red flag brands however which tested terrible over multiple dogs. The brands I would avoid based off of this are: 4 health, Acana, Candidae, Fromm, Honest Kitchen, Kirkland, Natural balance, Nutrisource, some raw diets, Taste of the wild, Wellness, Zignature, Purina. I only included foods to avoid that tested whole blood under 200 as goldens safe mark is 250 and other breeds safe mark is 200+.


----------



## barnyard

If you're really worried you could get an echo. Has the vet listened to his heart? Otherwise you could just switch to a non grain free food that doesn't have potatoes or legumes in it. You could always use Royal Canin if you're concerned. Ask your vet as well what food he recommends. They're using the score of 250 for taurine, which is what the Golden retriever needs, but other dogs are appropriate at 200. I would stay away from the above ingredients as well as lamb and novel ingredients like kangaroo, etc. I would also stay away from Acana, Earthborn, and Zignature at least and probably some others. I just took a re look at the food chart and there are a lot of foods on there. It does make it hard. The facebook site is using the criteria from the Tufts handout. One of the admins on the site said she feels comfortable as a breeder feeding a food that is not one of the big 4, but will not mention it on the site as it doesn't meet the criteria. I don't blame them or vets for only recommending certain foods as they want to be sure the food is ok. 
Even though this whole mess has caused some confusion, I'm glad we know that something is going on as some dogs have passed away.


----------



## Malibu

I just had a long talk with my vet and was told that many of the quality kibbles that WE are liking DO NOT respond when asked for a detailed recipe list. I am not sure I am explaining this correctly but vet's feel comfortable standing behind manufacturers that are transparent with all ingredients. 

They also do NOT get any kickback's from manufacturers.

I have served my girl many of the foods listed and I will add Instinct to the LID quality kibble.


----------



## katdog5911

Talked to my vet today. She seemed to think that as long as I had switched to food that did not contain the legumes and potatoes, there shouldn't be a problem. Hoping this is right. I wouldn't be able to get taurine tested right now anyway since he has only been on the new food for about 2 months. Not sure if I will get it tested or not in the future....

I will be interested to see what the research comes up with.


----------



## Hawke

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate all of the helpful and informative responses that have been posted in this thread. The discussion of the complexity of this issue and the referrals to other resources (especially that Google Sheet!) were particularly helpful to me while I have been wrestling with the decision to change my girl's food.

Having recently moved to a new area, I unfortunately do not currently have a vet whom I trust completely with these kinds of questions. I was lucky enough to find a phenomenal vet where I previously lived, and when I first saw the FDA alert about this correlation between certain diets and DCM, I was quick to reach out to his office. Unfortunately, communicating through a vet tech over the phone isn't the same as talking to him in person, so I wasn't able to get more information than that the doctor was "fine" with my girl's current diet. _Sigh._ The new vet we've found seems knowledgable on the issue and was able to answer some of my questions about whether this whole situation is thought to be related to an actual deficiency or an interference with the absorption of taurine, and I've found her trustworthy on other topics of conversation (she's been very balanced in her advice regarding spaying and vaccination vs. titer testing)... but I didn't love the "stick to the big brands like Purina or Hills" advice she gave when we talked. I also didn't much appreciate that when she mentioned that specific brands had been named as foods with higher correlations of DCM incidence, she would not say more than "you can find that information online." ...I actually mentioned Orijen and Acana by name as food that I've fed previous dogs (but hadn't yet fed my current girl just because of their Calcium/Phosphorus levels), and she didn't say a word. Seeing the number of times those brands have been listed in the Google Sheet just makes me cringe at that memory. 

Anyway, more thanks to the conversation here than my conversation with our new vet, I've decided to transition Dara from Fromm's Four Star grain-free line (we've been rotating between a couple of the better Ca options) over to Fromm's grain-inclusive Gold line. So far she's had no issues at all with the transition, and fingers crossed I made a safer decision with her food this time around. Looking forward to updates and results from Davis!


----------



## Magwart

I want to offer an update on how to do taurine testing, for anyone interested. My oldest dog has slowed down a lot the last year. He's 10-12 (rescue, so no way to know for sure), so that's normal, but we wanted to rule out anything else going on as part of his health workup. 



He's been on Fromm Four Star (rotational mix) for the past 5 years. We have rotated through grain and grain-free options, though lately I mostly avoid the grain free. He tested at 225, which is within the normal range.


The testing was a pain in the tush to do though. If you do it through IDEXX, it costs over $400. If you do it through UC Davis, it's about $200...but you or your vet must FedEx out the sample for AM delivery on specific days of the week. It has to go out the day the sample is taken, so that means you pull early enough in the day to make the deadline, with time to package it and get it to the FedEx facility. You can't send a vial of blood in the flat rate padded envelopes due to regs, so it has to be boxed up to ship. That kind of AM-delivery express shipping on a package is EXPENSIVE, especially if you live far from California. (I think the FedEx shipping fee was around $80, but we found a 25% off coupon for FedEx that helped).


----------



## Ozymandiasmv

A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a FB live stream by a Vet Cardiology group discussing DCM and grain free foods. It was a very informative discussion. I can no longer find that link. Anyone have it?


----------



## gsdsar

Ozymandiasmv said:


> A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a FB live stream by a Vet Cardiology group discussing DCM and grain free foods. It was a very informative discussion. I can no longer find that link. Anyone have it?


It may be from CVCA. Their website is CVCAVETS.com. It may be posted there or on their FB page.


----------



## Ozymandiasmv

gsdsar said:


> Ozymandiasmv said:
> 
> 
> 
> A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a FB live stream by a Vet Cardiology group discussing DCM and grain free foods. It was a very informative discussion. I can no longer find that link. Anyone have it?
> 
> 
> 
> It may be from CVCA. Their website is CVCAVETS.com. It may be posted there or on their FB page.
Click to expand...

Thank you. ?


----------



## barnyard

I heard on the cardiomyopathy facebook page that Dr. Stern's study on diet induced cardiomyopathy has passed peer review and will be available for publication soon.


----------



## Magwart

For anyone supplementing Taurine, Consumer Lab just released the results of their taurine supplement review. It lives behind a paywall, so I'm not going to bother linking it. (If you're already a subscriber, you likely just got an email with a link to the full report.) 



The bottom line is all the taurine supplements they tested passed scrutiny (i.e., contained what the labels indicated, in the right amounts, with no contamination, and dissolved properly) -- so it really doesn't seem that brand matters much, other than on price. NOW taurine capsules are a "top pick" (based on price).


----------



## Ozymandiasmv

Magwart said:


> For anyone supplementing Taurine, Consumer Lab just released the results of their taurine supplement review. It lives behind a paywall, so I'm not going to bother linking it. (If you're already a subscriber, you likely just got an email with a link to the full report.)
> 
> The bottom line is all the taurine supplements they tested passed scrutiny (i.e., contained what the labels indicated, in the right amounts, with no contamination, and dissolved properly) -- so it really doesn't seem that brand matters much, other than on price. NOW taurine capsules are a "top pick" (based on price).


has any more information come out about whether or not the presence of legumes in grain-free dog food might inhibit the absorption of taurine thereby making supplementation less reliable for dogs eating grain-free food?


----------



## barnyard

Ozymandiasmv said:


> has any more information come out about whether or not the presence of legumes in grain-free dog food might inhibit the absorption of taurine thereby making supplementation less reliable for dogs eating grain-free food?


The formal study isn't out yet, but should be soon. However, the vets are reporting that even when the diets have enough taurine, and the dogs blood draw is showing sufficient taurine, dogs are still developing dietary DCM. More companies are adding taurine to their diets, but it doesn't appear to help. The dogs have to be switched to a diet without legumes and potatoes for taurine supplementation to make a difference. The good news is that if the damage isn't severe, dietary DCM can be reversed with taurine and heart meds as necessary. So just putting taurine in a diet with legumes and potatoes doesn't appear to help, unfortunately.
The formal study was done with golden, but most other dog breeds are being affected as well. While the study isn't published yet, it does seem that the legumes and potatoes are somehow blocking the taurine, but we should see soon.


----------



## ILikeBigMutts

Reading through this thread and I'm not finished yet, but I am worried about my GSDs.

My two GSDs are on Zignature, I rotate salmon/catfish/kangaroo with Victor Salmon in there as well. One of my puppers has some chicken and beef sensitivities, which from a very early puppy age we eliminated from excluding Fromm beef/chicken from her diet and she stopped the intense scratching/itching.

I'm not sure whether to go back and re-try Fromm beef/chicken (it seems every one of Fromm's foods has chicken fat somewhere in it). Any suggestions? I have bought NOW Taurine capsules, will be sprinkling some powder on their food or adding to peanut butter I guess in the mean time. 

Chewy is delivering Zignature Kangaroo today... oh joy.


----------



## barnyard

Farmina is one that has seemed to do pretty well. So have most Royal Canin, Hills, Eukanuba, and Pro Plan formulas. Even where there has been lower taurine there haven't been dcm cases. Annamaet had 3 listing on the chart with good taurine and no dcm cases, though with only 3 listed I don't know if that's enough to compare or not. Annamaet does have a chicken free dog food called Option, and Farmina has dog food with cod. Some of the brand's that had low taurine cases have started to add taurine to their food, but it appears that doesn't help.
I'm feeding Pro Plan sport for now, though for the winter I need to find something a little lower in calories. Usually I use Nature's Domain Salmon in the winter, but I'm not doing that until I get a look at the study.


----------



## katdog5911

I've been following this topic since shortly after the FDA release. I was feeding Wellness grain free and my vet recommended to go on a grain inclusive kibble. 
Switched to Victor at first. Didn't like the small kibble so went to Eagle Pack (which is what the breeder feeds). I was happy with that and my boy seemed to do well with it. But the more I read about the DCM issue, the more concerned and confused I get. So I am making a switch to Purina Pro Plan Focus for now. I would much rather support a small mom and pop company but until there is some definitive answer on what is causing this issue, I will go to one of the "Big Three" companies. I was always under the impression that they were crap food but they are doing well on the charts with some of what I thought were higher end food not performing well. Just hoping some of the questions will be answered soon. I never thought I would need a PHD to figure out what to feed my dog!!


----------



## GatorBytes

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/a...f5sJTNztZwcxckzDNqTpurDkcWnlcSdysPtNPc75QmDaw




Says published Dec. 13, 2018
Don't know if it's a repeat of anything posted here


----------



## IllinoisNative

Since reading this thread, I switched from Earthborn grain free to Victor Hi-Pro Plus. It’s been two weeks and no issues so far. My dogs love it and their stools are good. It’s also cheaper than Earthborn. &#55357;&#56397;


----------



## Magwart

GatorBytes said:


> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0209112&fbclid=IwAR33SAwgT3ELPNf5sJTNztZwcxckzDNqTpurDkcWnlcSdysPtNPc75QmDaw





GatorBytes said:


> Says published Dec. 13, 2018
> Don't know if it's a repeat of anything posted here


 Thanks for sharing this! The full article is available to download without being hidden behind a paywall!

Here is my quick analysis for anyone whose eyes glaze over when full-length reading academic articles:

The study raises more a lot more questions than it answers. It's an observation study of just 24 Golden Retrievers who met all of the following criteria: they had DCM and low taurine and were feed grain-free diets. That's a heck of a narrow sample selection! It's not a randomized, double-blind, controlled trial. All that means is that it tells us nothing about low taurine results popping up with some grain-in foods, or other breeds, or why so many dogs don't end up with problems when fed the same food. Meh.

Critically, this article is still looking at pure correlation ("Correlation analysis using Pearson’s correlation coefficient was performed to determine if severity of taurine deficiency was correlated with selected echocardiographic parameters"). That's a profound limitation on potential conclusions. Correlation is not causation, and I don't think they've even ruled out reverse causation as a wickedly-hard-to-detect possibility (i.e., it could still turn out that low taurine isn't a cause, but is instead _caused by _some other problem). There are a lot of correlations pointing at hypotheses, but not any answers yet. 

*Could be a breed-related issue?* Yep. (“Golden retrievers are overrepresented as a breed at risk of developing taurine deficiency [3,5,6]. Taurine deficiency has been previously associated with certain diets in several breeds, including the golden retriever, Newfoundland, American Cocker Spaniels, English Setter, Labrador retriever, and several
others [5–8]. The fact that some breeds have an apparent increased risk for diet-related DCM suggests that there may be genetic or metabolic differences between breeds that make them more vulnerable to developing taurine deficiency.”)

*Could it also be peas/legumes interfering? * Yep. Or it could be the fiber. Or both. ("However, legumes are limiting in sulfur amino acids, and the anti-nutritional factors they commonly contain such as proteolytic inhibitors and phytates further negatively impact the digestibility and bioavailability of these taurine precursors [44]. Also, legumes are high in fiber, and there is some evidence that certain fiber sources result in depletion of taurine in both dogs and cats [45, 46]. Characterization of the fiber types (concentration of total dietary fiber and proportion of soluble vs insoluble fiber) in the diets consumed at baseline by the dogs in this study was not possible due to lack of information provided by the manufacturers.")

*Could it be due to variability of individual metabolic needs and digestive absorption?* Yep. ("Therefore, it is postulated that this species variation may make dogs more vulnerable to developing taurine deficiency if metabolic demands are high or if taurine is not efficiently reabsorbed by the intestinal tract.") To me, it seems like the role of gut flora here also looms large as a potential factor, but it’s not a subject of inquiry, yet.

*Could it be kibble cooking degrades the available taurine*? Yep. ("For example, it is well established that certain cooking methods can result in taurine losses [38] and that cooking and processing can impact taurine status through effects on the intestinal microbiota"). Ah ha! So gut flora _could_ matter due to the effect of processing on it. Significantly, they even raise the possibility that different manufacturer processing techniques cannot be ruled out as playing a role (" processing techniques and conditions applied to the raw materials and to the final product likely varied but are unknown and could not be assessed or compared in this study"). So that means we can’t even rule out rendered meal as playing into this -- since it’s _heavily _processed – but this isn’t the study to take up that question.

*Could it be because the manufacturer feeding guidelines assume people feed way more than people actually feed, and so the manufacturers are overestimating nutrients in their calculations?* Yep. Hm…that one came at me out of left field! (“Finally, many dogs in this study were consuming not only less than their predicted needs based on calculated MER ranges, but also less than the manufacturer’s feeding directions indicated. This may have been associated with suboptimal intakes of sulfur amino acid precursors in addition to other essential nutrients if diet formulation did not take into account this variability in energy requirement. It has previously been demonstrated that when diets are near-limiting in sulfur amino acids, dogs with lower energy requirements show slower taurine synthetic rates[47] and may therefore benefit from higher dietary concentrations of these taurine precursors.”)

Maybe that last one is the most interesting possibility they detected, as it may explain why foods supplemented with taurine can still produce low test results -- the manufacturer is wrongly assuming dogs are eating a lot more than they actually need to hold weight, so that possibly screws up the calculation of how much to taurine they add to food. It could even be that there's any problem at all with absorption of added taurine (in the foods that add it), but rather that there's just not enough added. We often say feed the dog according to body condition, not bag recs....well, that apparently sometimes correlates to taurine deficiency. That's worth a "wow." 

It could even be ALL of those things listed above! Taurine supplementation seems to be helping in a clinical setting, so it _seems_ to maybe be either a dose-related issue in the foods that supplement, or else a degradation/absorption/interference/synthesis issue in the affected dogs...but that's unknown.

So...lots of questions still. Randomized, controlled feeding trials are still needed to sort this out, so we’re probably years away from any good answers. (“Randomized, prospective, controlled feeding trials and other mechanistic research are needed to fully explore the impacts and potential interactions among specific ingredients, nutrient concentrations, fiber sources, processing conditions, and other dietary factors as they relate to taurine status in the dog.”)


----------



## barnyard

I found it interesting about feeding amounts as well. Possibly just formulating the food, without the feeding trials, doesn't take into account the variations of amounts that a dog eats. When I was feeding Nature's Domain, if I had fed the amount suggested I'd have waddling dogs. So that makes me wonder if there are other deficiencies as well that we just aren't aware of yet.
The other interesting take away was that adding taurine didn't help unless they were switched to a non BEG (boutique, exotic, grain free). So it is dietary anyway, but more studies are needed to completely understand exactly what is causing the issue. Knowing it's dietary anyway is enough for me to keep feeding Purina or Royal Canin.
I never thought about legumes being heavy on fiber, but that is another issue. The vets apparently aren't worried about beet pulp, it's the heavy fiber in the legumes.


----------



## katdog5911

The FB page" Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy" is a wealth of information on this subject. Research is still ongoing and probably will be for some time. An interesting twist to what was thought originally is that even with sufficient Taurine levels, some dogs not predisposed to DCM are still developing it. So it may be more accurate to call it "Diet induced DCM" rather than "taurine deficient DCM". Sometimes I wonder if some of the dogs that have just suddenly died, seemingly out of the blue, did in fact have DCM. No way to know if a necropsy wasn't done of course. 
I switched my dogs food just to put my mind at ease for now. He is doing well on it. Less money, less poop...so a win/win for me.


----------



## Sabis mom

One of the things that caught my attention was the recommended feeding amounts. I don't know that I have ever fed any dog as much as the bag said. In fact I have often joked the dog food companies must like fat dogs. So perhaps that is part of the problem, in order for our dogs to get sufficient nutrients they would actually need to be over fed. 

I understand caloric needs but honestly, with the variants in breed, age, sex, etc I don't know how anyone could predict the caloric needs of a dog based on weight.


Bud weighed in at a solid 95lbs, Sabi at 85lbs. Unless it was work Sabi was not given to movement not required. She came that way. She could and would work all day long, but at home the only thing she was fond of doing was eating, and she had the worst metabolism ever. I swear she spent her life on a diet. Bud seldom stopped moving. He liked to patrol the yard, he amused himself chasing birds and squirrels and he could and would chase a ball all day. Yet by their weights they both required the same amount of food. Not even close! At 5 and 4 years old respectively Bud ate almost twice what Sabi did with her still struggling to stay in shape and him struggling to maintain weight.

Calorie charts say I need about 1800 calories a day. I need almost twice that if I am moving around at all. lol. That would just barely keep me conscious.


----------



## Jenny720

Is there any other dog foods out there that does trials with their dog food and have a team of nutritionists/veterinarians on staff besides Purina.


----------



## Magwart

Here's the thing about feeding trials: per AAFCO, they just have to feed the food for 6 months to 8 dogs and then test something like 4 nutrient values in the blood (but not taurine!) and confirm most of the dogs didn't drop more than 15% of its body weight. It's not going to reveal much about this issue IMHO -- it's not like they do an echocardiogram at the end of six months. Also, taurine isn't an AAFCO-required ingredient in dog food! Mostly, the trials seem like a lot of window dressing to me.


In fact, that part of the paper makes me strongly suspect that the big companies that do the trials are funding the research and guiding the conclusions.


Worse, the social memory of what feeding trials actually mean for the dogs subjected to them seems to have evaporated in the 20 years since the campaign to stop them. It is important to understand that many brands stopped feed trials in the 90s after investigations revealed that the U.S. labs contracted to do them kept captive dogs in cages in utterly deplorable, cruel conditions -- on par with the worst puppy mill conditions. I remember this being a real concern in the rescue world because some shelters were letting the lab animal brokers take docile dogs that had once been someone's pet to use as test subjects. Those of us who care about _all _dogs -- not just our own -- had to start asking dog food companies "do you test or contract out testing?" -- and cruelty-free certifications became something pet food companies started to want to have because of consumer demand due to the outrage over the expose of what the dogs in labs went through.


When it was still an independent company, Natura (Evo, California Naturals, Innova) built their own multi-million dollar test facility in the late 90s/early 00s where homeless dogs would live for about a year and then get adopted out, so that they could ensure conditions were humane. The owners of the company decided that they couldn't be sure the dogs were treated humanely unless they owned the facility doing the testing. That facility probably is owned by P&G now, since they bought Natura long ago. They probably test a lot more than dog food there, if it's P&G-owned. Whether it's still humanely run is not something I've not kept up with, since I don't feed their food.



And then people forgot about why feeding trials went out of fashion with consumers. 


Think long and hard whether going back to that commercial lab testing is something you want to encourage -- getting dogs _out _of laboratories using them for consumer product testing has been a humane effort many good people have been fighting for. Please Google the work of the Beagle Freedom Project to see what laboratory-owned dogs go through for consumer products --- it's heartbreaking. At least vet schools usually manage to adopt out dogs used in one trial and students tend to really care about the school-owned dogs....but commercial labs are about profit.


Further reading, from a consumer advocate who used to hold the consumer seat on the AAFCO board:
https://truthaboutpetfood.com/pet-food-animal-testing/


I should add that there used to be a list of smaller companies that constructed feeding trials using employee-owned dogs -- the employees would agree to only feed one food and no treats at home, sometimes gather up poop for analysis, do weigh ins and a blood draw. I can't remember who kept that list, or where I saw it -- it was probably early 00's.


----------



## Jenny720

Animal cruel animal testing is hard to be not aware of this day in age - thankfully. my daughter will not use any product that has been cruelty animal tested so that has motivated myself and my son to do just the same even though it is very expensive and I am living week to week. I remember going to a genovese and spending $20 on hair products/ makeup/ deodorant etc at 15 years of age. My daughter spends $25 just on face wash because it’s animal cruelty/harsh chemical free even though I do know that May not always mean the best. I do love lush - sleepy-. I did /do assume there would be small pet food companies that had their own cruelty free trials. It would be interesting to get that list that you mentioned of the smaller companies and the results although I’m more aware that genetics has bigger and varying roles to play in health. All the years I have pets I always used different foods. With each dog. Karat- gsd -science diet prescription r/d to help keep his weight down lived till 12. Bella- King Charles at 9 years due to hereditary congestive heart failure - on wellness with grain she was the first dog fed “better quality” dog food. My 3 cats that I stuck with the same food for 19 years they all lived till 19 and died at exactly that age. They were fed crappy cans of fancy feast but they did enjoy it and never had any health issues. Max/ Luna and topper are eating Fromm and victor - topper was on wellness for about 8 years. I would imagine breeders a large input on food they feed. It would be interesting to see the reports of health issues and longevity of the cruelty free trials done on these small companies -especially with all these dogs getting sick. Also if there are nutrionists on staff.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Interesting article by Susan Thixton comparing the USA and Europe's pet food regulations!

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/no-grain-free-dog-food-heart-disease-in-europe-why/


----------



## Jenny720

That is an interesting article. Is it just USA having this issue?


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Article by Dr. Jean Dodds: "Dilated Cardiomyopathy (heart disease) in Dogs and Why Some Dogs Eat “Exotic” Ingredients" 


https://www.hemopet.org/dcm-heart-d...il&utm_term=0_2ab0e3771c-e43f0c9704-214080585


----------



## GatorBytes

Momto2GSDs said:


> Article by Dr. Jean Dodds: "Dilated Cardiomyopathy (heart disease) in Dogs and Why Some Dogs Eat “Exotic” Ingredients"
> 
> 
> https://www.hemopet.org/dcm-heart-d...il&utm_term=0_2ab0e3771c-e43f0c9704-214080585



Cannot go to Hemopet sight without first signing up for newsletter, tried from google too...won't load.
But found something from a diff site (copying Dodd's info?). Don't know if same as you posted.


It seems there have been similar issues in Rice and meat diets in past.
Maybe it all comes down to extruded foods, feeding the exact same thing day in and day out for life.


Fresh foods would be the way to go, I would think. Or at least a rotation of fresh and processed. The way we eat.


https://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/179049849051/canine-heart-disease#.XDOQWjKFO00


Prior Research 
Several research studies have been conducted into taurine deficiency in dogs. We summarize three. 

Delaney _et al._, June 2003: Mean whole blood taurine concentrations were lower in dogs fed diets containing whole grain rice, rice bran or barley. The lowest whole blood concentrations were seen in dogs fed lamb or lamb meal and rice diets. Plasma methionine and cysteine concentrations were lower in dogs fed diets with animal meals or turkey, and whole grain rice, rice bran or barley.
Backus _et al._, 2006: All dogs were fed the same kibble that consisted of lamb meal and rice. Beet pulp was not listed as an ingredient. These findings support the theory that taurine deficiency in dogs may be related to the consumption of certain dietary ingredients. Taurine deficiency in dogs is suggested to result from reduced sulfur amino acid bioavailability in dietary ingredients that are heat processed, such as rendered meat meals.
Ko and Fascetti, 2016: Rather than rice, dietary beet pulp showed the most significant effect in lowering plasma and whole taurine concentrations, in part, by decreasing the protein digestibility (sulfur amino acid bioavailability), by enhancing fecal excretion of bile acids and possibly, by enhancing degradation of taurine by the gut microflora in dogs. These findings may result from the greater effect of beet pulp fiber than rice bran or cellulose on intestinal bacterial fermentation that cleaves taurocholic acid and destroys the taurine released. Cellulose was the control fiber in this study – and rice bran caused similar responses as cellulose – the study authors concluded that rice bran is unlikely the cause of the increased risk of taurine deficiency in dogs fed lamb and rice diets.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

GatorBytes said:


> Cannot go to Hemopet sight without first signing up for newsletter, tried from google too...won't load.
> But found something from a diff site (copying Dodd's info?). Don't know if same as you posted.



Oh rats! I didn't realize that.....sorry!


No, it is a completely different article discussing "2 notable studies":
*Adin et al., “Echocardiographic phenotype of canine dilated cardiomyopathy differs based on diet type” *


*Kaplan, Stern et al., “Taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy in golden retrievers fed commercial diets”*


----------



## mmags

Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Hills, Farmina. Not sure what other ones.


----------



## barnyard

Regal dog food and the original Pro pac (not Pro Pac ultimates) were food trialed as well. Both are harder to get though Regal is a somewhat local company for me and some in the rescue feed it.

Regarding whether Europe has seen DCM, in response to the question in a Facebook page I'm on, some people in Europe were reporting their vets hadn't heard of the issue. One person did end up having dogs that had heart disease that did respond well to meds and different food so it was suspected to be dietary caused. Farmina is testing well though, and maybe some of the companies there didn't add all sorts of legumes and potatoes to the food.


----------



## katdog5911

another link regarding the DCM issue

https://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/docs/lib..._djPIi9xYqPX90ozbV_p6VjnqorKj-Xqw7zwCBXoeD9JA


----------



## Reckzx

I finally read this thread and have joined the Facebook group. My 10 year old GSD has been on Acana his whole life pretty much and doesn't seem to have an issue/symptoms. However, I still am worried. I am thinking of switching to something else.

For those that switched from Acana, what did you switch to? Everyone on the Facebook group recommends Purina Pro Plan...


----------



## Sarah Libby

Reckzx said:


> I finally read this thread and have joined the Facebook group. My 10 year old GSD has been on Acana his whole life pretty much and doesn't seem to have an issue/symptoms. However, I still am worried. I am thinking of switching to something else.
> 
> For those that switched from Acana, what did you switch to? Everyone on the Facebook group recommends Purina Pro Plan...


I personally switched to Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach (salmon formula). I had Penny on Acana briefly and was about to change over to Orijen when I caught wind of this. Until more is know I'm not risking my dogs life. It's true, none of my dogs may ever have developed DCM being on grain free, but I don't want to take that chance. Even little dogs like Shih Tzu's have been diagnosed, and I have Chi/Tzu at home, along with a lab. I suspect my Shepherd mix that died in August could have died from this as he was on GF for 8 years. It's not definitive as I never tested what he died of, but he did suddenly show symptoms of panting, coughing, lethargy, vomiting, collapse, and then died. In my arms. If it was DCM related I just can't imagine having any more of my dogs go this way.. 
Only issue I have right now with PPP SSS is that Penny is having some loose poop on it. It has only been over a week, however it might be something in the food so I may need to change formulas.


----------



## Sarah Libby

Reckzx said:


> I finally read this thread and have joined the Facebook group. My 10 year old GSD has been on Acana his whole life pretty much and doesn't seem to have an issue/symptoms. However, I still am worried. I am thinking of switching to something else.
> 
> For those that switched from Acana, what did you switch to? Everyone on the Facebook group recommends Purina Pro Plan...


Also DCM doesn't really show symptoms until it's too late. SOMETIMES there is a cough. But generally not. Only way to know for sure is with an echo of the heart. 
The fact DCM is usually asymptomatic is scary for me.


----------



## Sarah Libby

Jenny720 said:


> Is there any other dog foods out there that does trials with their dog food and have a team of nutritionists/veterinarians on staff besides Purina.


Royal Canin, Purina, Hills, Iams, and Eukanuba. Those are the ones I am hearing that have a team of nutritionists on staff that help develop their formulas.


----------



## Sabis mom

Sarah Libby said:


> Royal Canin, Purina, Hills, Iams, and Eukanuba. Those are the ones I am hearing that have a team of nutritionists on staff that help develop their formulas.


There are two sides to every story. I am a born sceptic, and the push to get people to move to this very small group of foods is suspicious. RC just had a recall issue, Iams killed a bunch of pets while refusing to admit contamination, Hills and Purina are both masters at switch and bait marketing, Eukanuba dodges under the radar with shady ingredients and mass market flooding.
Eukanuba, RC, Iams =Mars
Hills=Colgate Palmolive
Purina=Nestle
I would not trust any of them. And then you have the fact that they are funding the research.

I will continue to feed my dog the brand with no recalls, vet on staff, ethically sourced ingredients and open door policy.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Sabis mom said:


> There are two sides to every story. I am a born sceptic, and the push to get people to move to this very small group of foods is suspicious. RC just had a recall issue, Iams killed a bunch of pets while refusing to admit contamination, Hills and Purina are both masters at switch and bait marketing, Eukanuba dodges under the radar with shady ingredients and mass market flooding.
> Eukanuba, RC, Iams =Mars
> Hills=Colgate Palmolive
> Purina=Nestle
> *I would not trust any of them. And then you have the fact that they are funding the research.*
> 
> I will continue to feed my dog the brand with no recalls, vet on staff, ethically sourced ingredients and open door policy.



Me either!


----------



## Sarah Libby

Sabis mom said:


> Sarah Libby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Royal Canin, Purina, Hills, Iams, and Eukanuba. Those are the ones I am hearing that have a team of nutritionists on staff that help develop their formulas.
> 
> 
> 
> There are two sides to every story. I am a born sceptic, and the push to get people to move to this very small group of foods is suspicious. RC just had a recall issue, Iams killed a bunch of pets while refusing to admit contamination, Hills and Purina are both masters at switch and bait marketing, Eukanuba dodges under the radar with shady ingredients and mass market flooding.
> Eukanuba, RC, Iams =Mars
> Hills=Colgate Palmolive
> Purina=Nestle
> I would not trust any of them. And then you have the fact that they are funding the research.
> 
> I will continue to feed my dog the brand with no recalls, vet on staff, ethically sourced ingredients and open door policy.
Click to expand...

No need to be rude. I am just stating those are the brands I have heard and read about. I also see no such information out there of any funding or sponsorship being done. Can you provide that? 
What food are you feeding that is so great? Just curious, as if it's that great I would love to know what it is so I can weigh pros and cons.


----------



## Sarah Libby

And from what I've been reading about out there, most dog food brands DON'T have nutritionists or anything working for them. Provide proof please if I'm wrong.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

UPDATE:


https://truthaboutpetfood.com/fda-provides-update-on-dcm-investigation/



"The FDA update informed pet owners the agency has collaborated “_with a variety of components of the animal health sector to collect and evaluate information about the DCM cases and the diets pets ate prior to becoming ill_.” However the FDA update was less than transparent with pet owners on how much they have collaborated with pet food manufacturers in their investigation.


This FDA update told pet owners that FDA is “_Examining ingredient sourcing/processing and product formulation with pet food manufacturers_.” 



Actually, *the agency has done far more than that*. The pet food publication PetFoodIndustry.com states “_David Edwards, Ph.D., an officer with FDA’s Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM)’s Office of Surveillance and Compliance, presented an update on the agency’s DCM investigation during the American Feed Industry Association’s 12th Annual Pet Food Conference, held February 12 in conjunction with the International Production and Processing Expo in Atlanta, Georgia, USA_.” 
*FDA has never provided the same opportunity for pet owners to hear an in-person update on their investigation into DCM issues as they have provided industry*."


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Hill's just had a recall due to the death of some dogs from excess Vitamin D in their foods.



https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...recall-hills-prescription-science-diet-2.html


----------



## Sarah Libby

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hill's just had a recall due to the death of some dogs from excess Vitamin D in their foods.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...recall-hills-prescription-science-diet-2.html


Yep, read about that. But from what I read they are working on the issue. I don't feed Hills personally. And all I mentioned above was what brands that I knew of that staffed nutritionists and/or vets. Those are the brands that I know of that do.. I don't know about any others, but welcome any info on other brands that do.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Hi Sarah Liby,


*I don't want to derail this thread* to the recall, but...

This is why people do not trust:


From Plaintiffs in HILL'S LAW SUIT:
"Plaintiffs in Florida, North Carolina, and New York are leading a suit filed Feb. 11 in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York. Kelly Bone, Christina Sawyer, and Janine Buckley say that Hill’s specialty dog foods contained “toxic and often fatal levels of vitamin D” and that the company knew about it months before its recall on Jan. 31. The suit claims that dogs owned by each of them died as a result of being fed tainted Hill’s products.
“Not only has Hill’s sold contaminated food, but it has dragged its feet in issuing a recall and including all contaminated food within the scope of the recall,” the lawsuit says. How a Vitamin and a Mistake Led to the Downfall of Hill's | Poisoned Pets | Pet Food Safety News


Hill's and all other dog food manufacturer's should be testing their ingredients.....


----------



## Sabis mom

Sarah Libby said:


> No need to be rude. I am just stating those are the brands I have heard and read about. I also see no such information out there of any funding or sponsorship being done. Can you provide that?
> What food are you feeding that is so great? Just curious, as if it's that great I would love to know what it is so I can weigh pros and cons.


First Mate, Canadian made, family owned, non GMO and cruelty free. Been feeding it for almost 8 years. Top notch customer service and absolute commitment to quality.




Sarah Libby said:


> And from what I've been reading about out there, most dog food brands DON'T have nutritionists or anything working for them. Provide proof please if I'm wrong.


FirstMate’s Executive Vice President Is A Veterinarian & Pet Nutritionist B.Sc. M.Sc. D.V.M.


----------



## Sabis mom

Sarah Libby said:


> Yep, read about that. But from what I read they are working on the issue. I don't feed Hills personally. And all I mentioned above was what brands that I knew of that staffed nutritionists and/or vets. Those are the brands that I know of that do.. I don't know about any others, but welcome any info on other brands that do.


Isn't it Mars that owns Banfield? I think that's what it's called. Again suspect. Owning a vet chain, and one that is "helping" with the research?


----------



## Sarah Libby

Sabis mom said:


> Sarah Libby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, read about that. But from what I read they are working on the issue. I don't feed Hills personally. And all I mentioned above was what brands that I knew of that staffed nutritionists and/or vets. Those are the brands that I know of that do.. I don't know about any others, but welcome any info on other brands that do.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it Mars that owns Banfield? I think that's what it's called. Again suspect. Owning a vet chain, and one that is "helping" with the research?
Click to expand...

I don't know, but that doesn't tell me they are "helping" with the research. 
And is your dog food available in the US? I haven't heard of that brand before. I am all for learning about new brands and good foods!


----------



## Sabis mom

Top 20 Foods and Products that have been Genetically Modified

I was looking for info on peas and found this. Informative if somewhat slanted(written by organic growers). I have been questioning from the start whether it's the actual ingredients or specific to how the ingredients are produced. 
Note that potatoes, peas, soy and corn are all on this list. As a species dogs have evolved into being eating our leftovers so to state at this point that it's not ok seems odd.


----------



## Jenny720

*FDA: Dog Foods &amp; Canine Dilated Cardiomyopathy*

@Sarahlibby Yeah I don’t really get it but I do know now why vets do recommend these brands because they have a team veterinarians and nutritionists behind these brands as can be afforded. With small companies thus would be a challenge. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Magwart

@Sabis mom, have you been following any of the legal news about the Roundup trials in the US? The plaintiffs' expert science (disputed by Bayer) is allegedly showing Roundup can destroy gut flora in humans AND animals. Combine this with the EWG report a few months ago finding significant residue of it in non-organic oats purchased at supermarkets in the U.S. (including Quaker), along with data about the amount of it used on various other food crops that you mentioned....and a picture starts to emerge that isn't good. Not many dog foods use organic grains, tubers, legumes, or other vegetables!


----------



## Sabis mom

Magwart said:


> @Sabis mom, have you been following any of the legal news about the Roundup trials in the US? The plaintiffs' expert science (disputed by Bayer) is allegedly showing Roundup can destroy gut flora in humans AND animals. Combine this with the EWG report a few months ago finding significant residue of it in non-organic oats purchased at supermarkets in the U.S. (including Quaker), along with data about the amount of it used on various other food crops that you mentioned....and a picture starts to emerge that isn't good. Not many dog foods use organic grains, tubers, legumes, or other vegetables!


It's really scary what they are doing to our food across the board. 
The reason I was looking up peas in the first place: It has never made sense to me that these are a problem. Or grain for that matter. Think about it, dogs as a species have literally evolved into being eating our leftovers and garbage. So HOW is possible that all of a sudden these grains, legumes and tubers that have always been a part of our diet, are dangerous? 
My personal thoughts are that the foods are not the problem it's how they are grown now. And humans suffer to! 
One of the HUGE driving forces behind what I am doing now. Why? Because I had SEVEN surgeries to remove tumors and cancerous growths before I turned 34. But when I took control and changed not just what I eat but where it comes from the growths stopped recurring. At 34 my blood pressure was so out of control doctors wanted me hospitalized and did not expect me to make 35. Again a change in DIET, not lifestyle or activity level saved me. Now at 48 my blood pressure is normal and I have been cancer free for over a decade. I take no medication and I still smoke and drink coffee (neither of which I condone). According to my doctor I test better then most 35 year olds across the board.
I do not believe that the ingredients are the problem, I believe the sourcing is.


----------



## Jenny720

I had voiced the same concerns awhile back as about the pesticides and what was being done to our food. Cancer centers are popping up all over here on the island. Monsanto roundup is not only in USA but worldwide. I do still have trouble understanding why the dog food is not effecting dog’s hearts in other countries. This round up is also found in beer and wine- often organic.


----------



## Fodder

Reckzx said:


> I finally read this thread and have joined the Facebook group. My 10 year old GSD has been on Acana his whole life pretty much and doesn't seem to have an issue/symptoms. However, I still am worried. I am thinking of switching to something else.
> 
> For those that switched from Acana, what did you switch to? Everyone on the Facebook group recommends Purina Pro Plan...


I switched from Acana Meadowland to Fromm Gold until I make a long term decision.


----------



## Sabis mom

After almost a year on a grain inclusive food I am switching Shadow back. 
An extremely small number of dogs affected seems to me to point more at a genetic predisposition. Her food still contains no peas and she has some worrisome symptoms plaguing us. Since the switch she has developed some strange sores or hotspots. The one deeply ear comes and goes. But most troubling is that she has been shedding her guard coat for months now.


----------



## NancyJ

I wonder what would happen if this much emotion, excitement and fear was put into the alarming cancer rate in our dogs. I never had a dog with DCM I have lost my 3 most recent GSDs to hemangiosarcoma and hold my breath every day with Beau who turns 8 t his year. wondering.....hoping not.........


----------



## crittersitter

NancyJ said:


> I wonder what would happen if this much emotion, excitement and fear was put into the alarming cancer rate in our dogs. I never had a dog with DCM I have lost my 3 most recent GSDs to hemangiosarcoma and hold my breath every day with Beau who turns 8 t his year. wondering.....hoping not.........





I personally think that we are killing our dogs with dog food, over vaccination, flea/tick chemicals and environment in general with a little genetic factor thrown in.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

*UPDATE: FDA will soon release DCM investigation update*

*FDA will soon release DCM investigation update:*

Per Susan Thixton: 
How do I know? Because industry has already been told exactly what information FDA is releasing.


A concerned industry member shared some information with TruthaboutPetFood.com; the FDA will release in July an update to their investigation of pet food related heart disease (dilated cardiomyopathy – DCM). But, we were told the FDA update will be little more than a ‘data dump’, an update to how many reports of pet food related heart disease FDA has received. Industry is being told by FDA the agency has received (a total) in the range of *500 pet food related DCM case reports since January 2014*.

*Why tell industry first?*
We were told the information about the FDA update was provided by FDA to the Pet Food Institute – the trade association representing Purina, Hill’s and Mars Petcare (among others). *Why is FDA providing important information regarding a supposedly unbiased investigation to this trade association well in advance of updating pet owners?* 
The FDA stated in their February 2019 update they are “_collaborating with a variety of components of the animal health sector to collect and evaluate information about the DCM cases and the diets pets ate prior to becoming ill_.” ‘Collecting’ and ‘evaluating’ information from industry is VERY different than sharing with industry details of the FDA investigation well in advance of telling pet owners. 

*Did FDA intentionally give industry details in advance of pet owners to give industry time to spin the soon to be released data?*

Read the article here: https://truthaboutpetfood.com/fda-will-soon-release-dcm-investigation-update/


----------



## Jax08

NancyJ said:


> I wonder what would happen if this much emotion, excitement and fear was put into the alarming cancer rate in our dogs. I never had a dog with DCM I have lost my 3 most recent GSDs to hemangiosarcoma and hold my breath every day with Beau who turns 8 t his year. wondering.....hoping not.........


A whole lot of paranoia from people that don't seem to follow any science. 

A vet cardiologist I know just posted the link along with a graph. Single Protein Acana had the highest rate of incidents.


Here's your report, People. 

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...DMNY5ue1krMeKssNL1I6vmVrXDa9ZRsgXM2RxdTSP91eQ

https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...rtain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy


----------



## Saco

The take home for me was this: "FDA examined product labels of products reported in DCM cases to determine whether the products were grain-free (did not contain corn, soy, wheat, rice, barley or other grains), and whether the products contained peas, other lentils including chickpeas and beans, or potatoes (including sweet potatoes). More than 90 percent of products were “grain-free,” and 93 percent of reported products contained peas and/or lentils. A far smaller proportion contained potatoes."

Thanks for the links. Interesting and important for any dog owner to read.


----------



## Jenny720

Yes good reads thanks for posting!


----------



## Jax08

The take home should also be that they still do not know what is causing this. The number of dogs per breed are disproportionate based on owners reporting it. That the Goldens are already known to have a genetic predisposition. That the foods with the highest number reported were single protein and most of them were chicken based (lighter meats have less taurine content to begin with. Red meats such as beef are higher).
@Jenny720 - I"ll message you on FB and send you what a good friend who is in the industry wrote. Regardless of what some think, there is not a conspiracy to keep information from owners and the pet food industry is finding out information at the same time as everyone else.


----------



## Jenny720

That would be great Michelle much appreciate thank you. 

Yeah the interesting thing Europe is not seeing these issues not that I know of. Also to see the golden ret shows genetic factor is quite large. It is surprising to see a the very popular Science diet and Purina grainfree dog food not on this list with all peas in the first few ingredients and limited poultry protei. Everyone is always learning including experts and always good to see some type of progression. I hope to see the dog food industry continue to follow suit.


----------



## Magwart

I highly recommend reading the vet journal retraction request submitted to JAVMA from someone who writes about junk science and happens to own a so-called "BEG" dog food company:
https://www.veterinaryintegrity.org/s/RETRACTION-PACKAGE-jn5c.pdf


It's summarized here: https://www.veterinaryintegrity.org/


The JAVMA article that exploded concern over this apparently slipped in as an opinion piece, without peer-review or disclosure of financial conflicts of interest. Dr. Freeman and her co-authors, and Tufts Nutrition generally, aren't looking good in this retraction request. The allegations are really fascinating. I'm really interested to see how Freeman et al. respond.


----------



## michaelr

I have a slightly tangential question that's been in the back of my mind for several months and the FDA report has finally prompted me to ask it.


The breeder we got Duke from back in 2010 had him on Solid Gold Wolf Cub and we've had him on Solid Gold ever since (Wolf King now), mixed with some boiled chicken and a splash of the broth it was boiled in. He loves it, has done well on it, and it didn't make the list (whew!). Our other dog (mixed) is 16.5 years old now and very near the end (though it seems like he's been near the end for the past year and is still hanging in). In anticipation of his passing and the fact that Duke may not take it very well (Yeah, yeah, I know, it's just an excuse for why I want to get a second shepherd), I've been paying attention to the dry dog food recommendations that come up in the various threads, because the odds are the pup will have been started on a different kibble and I'll have to switch one or the other of them (and based on the lack of recommendations, till now I thought it would likely be Duke away from Solid Gold). Several of the most often recommended kibbles here are on the list and Solid Gold, which isn't (peas and potatoes are 4 & 5 on the ingredients. Bison, fish meal, brown rice are the first 3. Salmon oil & Taurine are further down the list), is never mentioned here though it looks good to my uneducated eye. 



So, the question is why does Solid Gold not get any respect? What am I missing about it?


----------



## Momto2GSDs

*FDA Update to DCM Investigation **clarifies a few things*

Susan Thixton rearranges the 1st graph data into categories of manufacturer's..... and the numbers look a bit different. see 2nd graph

https://truthaboutpetfood.com/fda-update-to-dcm-investigation-clarifies-a-few-things/ 


Pet owners have – previous to this June 2019 FDA update – been told far too many times that the cases of DCM were directly linked to boutique brands of pet food. Thanks to this FDA update *we know that information wasn’t very accurate*. The U.S. leaders in pet food sales are Mars, Purina, General Mills, Smuckers and Diamond; all listed with high numbers of FDA DCM reports.


Pet owners have also been repeatedly told – previous to this June 2019 FDA update – that exotic protein ingredients were directly linked to cases of DCM. *This update proves that information wasn’t very accurate either. *The FDA provides this information on protein types linked to DCM cases: see graph #3


What would have been a proper investigation by FDA (*but hasn’t been discussed thus far*), is determination of the *quality* of the Chicken, Lamb, Salmon and so on ingredients of each pet food. 


_Example: when “Chicken” is listed on a pet food label ingredient panel – the ingredient can be USDA inspected and passed chicken, USDA inspected and condemned chicken, whole chicken, chicken bones (no meat), chicken skin (no meat) and/or a slew of other types of chicken. _


Also, *the FDA did not clarify if in the above chart* “Chicken” or “Lamb” is chicken or chicken meal or lamb or lamb meal which have quality variations as well. 
It would be very telling information for pet owners to learn the quality of the animal protein ingredients used in the pet foods reported to FDA.


Interesting to see how to see how the information is presented on this!


To be continued!opcorn:


----------



## Magwart

Susan's rearrangement is "interesting" but as statistically useless as what the FDA released. There's a good comment left by someone on her website about the need to normalize the data. I get that she's not a statistician, but it wouldn't be hard to get get someone with a hard science/math background to help if she could get the raw data. What she's doing is generating more misleading conclusions -- she is criticizing the FDA for doing that and then replicating the same type of math mistake.


To put it very simply: the vast majority of dog food contains chicken, right? It's the cheapest protein found in far and away the greatest number of foods. Thus, EVEN IF DCM ENDS UP BEING TOTALLY UNRELATED TO FOOD you would still see far more dogs who eat chicken among dogs with DCM, just because that's what most dogs eat. All she may be showing is the market share of various proteins....not that those proteins have anything to do with the disease. Same goes for grain-free manfacturing -- when you start stacking brands made in plants and market share the way she did, it shouldn't be a surprise to see cases grow...with marketshare representation. All of this can be controlled for...and it would be a lot more interesting if it were.


----------



## bnormal

*Confusion*

I've had too many experiences with dcm...I've lost 3 precious Dobermans to this horrendous disease. My last Dobe died in February of this year. So when I was looking for another puppy I thought I have to get away from Dobes. I've had 6 in the last 25 years. So I settled on a GSD. His name is Igor. He is 7 months old and is doing great...I love the boy!

Here's the confusion....I thought a GSD would not be succeptible to dcm...I knew about the hip displasia...but dcm wouldn't be a worry...now the blasted fda says not so fast...I'm feeding Igor Nutra Max LBP....Nutro is on the fda list...now what????

I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this message....


----------



## Muskeg

OK, now I'm just confused. 

I am a bit familiar with statistics but it's been awhile. I know enough to understand how stats can be used to tell many different stories with the same data. 

Is there in fact any proven connection or correlation between grain free foods and DCM? Or is this just a correlation between rich dog owners who can afford a purebred dog (eg. golden retriever) and buy the "best" grain-free food and also pay for and get the vet diagnosis for DCM? (or something else entirely?)

I don't feed grain-free and certainly won't now, but this whole thing seems to be similar to the vaccine -autism study that was proven wrong ... or am I missing something?


----------



## Muskeg

I lost my girl Ebony, at just 2.5 years old, sudden collapse. I didn't have her necropsied. But I wonder sometimes if it was DCM. If so, she was eating TOTW as part of the rotation. I tend to doubt it had anything to do with the food but was something congenital.

But it would make sense to me that the uptick in DCM cases is because people have heard about DCM and then opt to get advanced Dx or have a necropsy. And that these types of people are more likely to feed boutique or grain free. 

But what do I know... for me I didn't pursue a necropsy because of the cost, the emotional issues around it, and the fact that it wouldn't do anything to bring her back.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

bnormal said:


> I've had too many experiences with dcm...I've lost 3 precious Dobermans to this horrendous disease. My last Dobe died in February of this year. So when I was looking for another puppy I thought I have to get away from Dobes. I've had 6 in the last 25 years. So I settled on a GSD. His name is Igor. He is 7 months old and is doing great...I love the boy!
> 
> Here's the confusion....I thought a GSD would not be succeptible to dcm...


Sadly, DCM is a well known genetic issue in Dobermans. What's different with this issue is that it's effecting breeds that typically do not have a genetic history of DCM and appears to be diet related.


----------



## Magwart

bnormal said:


> I've had too many experiences with dcm...I've lost 3 precious Dobermans to this horrendous disease. [ . . . ]
> Here's the confusion....I thought a GSD would not be succeptible to dcm...



I'm so sorry about your dobes -- my last Dobe died suddenly at 7 of what was sometimes referred to as the "sudden death gene" that was rampant in them back in the 90s (i.e., DCM). I was so devastated by losing her so young that I went back to the GSDs I'd grown up with, for more years with them. My last 3 GSDs have lived to 11-12. One of our current dogs is at least 12 and still going strong. So I totally get where you're coming from!



If you actually work with the data on the Google Sheet that posted way up in this thread, and filter it for breed, what you'll see is that it's really mostly a Golden Retriever thing that's happening -- not just purebred Goldens, but all the popular Golden mixes (doodles etc). Once you take out all those (including the mixes), there really aren't many cases left in other breeds in the public data. The FDA may have more reports not in the public data, but what we have access to seems to show some statistical "odd balls" here and there, but not a mass of cases (which are present in the Golden-type dogs). While there are some DCM cases in GSDs on the margin, it's WAY, WAY down the list of things I'd be worrying about with a GSD based on the currently available data. (However, you ought to be sure there's adequate taurine in the diet AND probably aim for foods with few legumes...for lots of reasons.)


Keep in mind that all they have right now is correlation, and some spurious conclusions. The more the FDA releases, the sketchier this looks -- the last paper published on it by UC Davis researchers (discussed above) left a mess of unanswered questions about different variables (breed genetics, individualized gut flora, amount fed by owners, food processing degradation, etc.). 



Since common things occur commonly...in a GSD, your energy, focus (and money) are probably better spent on common breed issues: digestion/gut health (non-organic legume crops are typically dried-off with Round-Up in the field in the U.S., and Round-Up appears to harm gut flora...so this may be a reason to re-evaluate legume-based foods for this tender-tummied breed), immune function (same issue with Round-Up, since gut flora are critical to a healthy immune system), skin (sufficient EFAs seem to be VERY important to this breed's skin health, and EFAs are degraded by heat-processing), spine (spinal issues are the "secret" genetic defect in the breed that not enough owners and vets focus on), hips/elbows (of the two, elbows worry me more than hips)...and cancer. Everyone who has owned enough GSDs over enough years has lost one (or several...) to cancer -- your odds of being hit by that are pretty high. They've even earned the nickname German Cancer Dogs among some vets. 



Right now, I think it's reasonable to to feed good food, that includes added taurine, and ideally minimize non-organic legumes. As for Nutro, it's made by Mars now (like Pedigree and Royal Canin). For the same money, I think you can probably upgrade to a company with a better reputation for ingredient sourcing (i.e., one that's not sourcing out of China, with no history of lab analysis finding euthanasia drugs in the food due to sketchy meat meal sourcing). I wouldn't change *only* because they're on the list, but I'd consider changing to upgrade ingredient quality control generally, if you're interested in that for broader health concerns. If you can get Igor off of kibble, that would be worth thinking about, if you can afford high-quality, balanced, commercial raw or dehydrated diets.


IMHO, the science just isn't there to support an evidence-based conclusion that feeding any food on this list will *CAUSE* DCM in GSDs generally based on a relatively small number of correlated cases that may be impacted by other variables. Please read the retraction request that I linked a few posts up to get a sense on why. There's a lot more work that needs to be done to unpack what's going on, and there may be additional variables that haven't been released to the public yet.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Muskeg said:


> Is there in fact any proven connection or correlation between grain free foods and DCM? Or is this just a correlation between rich dog owners who can afford a purebred dog (eg. golden retriever) and buy the "best" grain-free food and also pay for and get the vet diagnosis for DCM?


The former is still being investigated, but so far it does seem to be diet related somehow. What's not known yet is exactly how and why. Some dogs are caught in time, and with medications and a change in diet they make a full recovery. Others do not.  

Definitely not the latter. It's not just goldens, it's affected many breeds, including GSDs, although to a much lesser extent. Some households have had 2 or 3 dogs diagnosed, al eating the same food. If anything, there are probably more cases than the several hundred confirmed so far. It can only be definitively diagnosed with an echocardiogram, which are expensive and not all pet owners can afford that. Some people are having their pets tested only because they've been on a diet that has been linked to DCM. They've seen no signs at all and are surprised by the diagnosis.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I think this article is a good overview of the situation: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/b...JIw_iYYLZVAgNCGse2QcdUdpD2b7jOCpXSBx-lkw79Bn4


----------



## bnormal

I've been purchasing nutro max lbp from chewy...so looking at chewys offerings to replace it with something healthier I now need to take some tylenol....it seems like everything has peas, chickpeas. potatoes and some type of chemicals...

I'm 60 years old, 6' tall and go about 185lbs...and I don't put this much thought into what I EAT!!! though I never eat fast food.

When I was growing up our dogs ate Italian leftovers and they lived long, happy lives. Unfortunately, the chef, my grandmother, is no longer with us...that being said...

Igor, 7 months old...growing big and strong...any food recomendations? (I realize that this has been asked/answered millions of times)


----------



## Magwart

bnormal said:


> Igor, 7 months old...growing big and strong...any food recomendations? (I realize that this has been asked/answered millions of times)



Given the focus of this thread and how quickly it moves, I think you'd be better served starting a new thread identifying the criteria you have, price range, etc.


----------



## Soakette

****, my 7 month old GSD is on Acana. He was on royal canin before but I wanted something healthier. This makes me very concerned for him. Maybe I should switch back to royal canin?? Ugh. So frustrating!


----------



## lrodptl

Grain = grass seed. Do dogs need seeds of grasses?


----------



## lrodptl

Magwart said:


> I'm so sorry about your dobes -- my last Dobe died suddenly at 7 of what was sometimes referred to as the "sudden death gene" that was rampant in them back in the 90s (i.e., DCM). I was so devastated by losing her so young that I went back to the GSDs I'd grown up with, for more years with them. My last 3 GSDs have lived to 11-12. One of our current dogs is at least 12 and still going strong. So I totally get where you're coming from!
> 
> 
> 
> If you actually work with the data on the Google Sheet that posted way up in this thread, and filter it for breed, what you'll see is that it's really *mostly a Golden Retriever thing that's happening *-- not just purebred Goldens, but all the popular Golden mixes (doodles etc). Once you take out all those (including the mixes), there really aren't many cases left in other breeds in the public data. The FDA may have more reports not in the public data, but what we have access to seems to show some statistical "odd balls" here and there, but not a mass of cases (which are present in the Golden-type dogs). While there are some DCM cases in GSDs on the margin, it's WAY, WAY down the list of things I'd be worrying about with a GSD based on the currently available data. (However, you ought to be sure there's adequate taurine in the diet AND probably aim for foods with few legumes...for lots of reasons.)
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that all they have right now is correlation, and some spurious conclusions. The more the FDA releases, the sketchier this looks -- the last paper published on it by UC Davis researchers (discussed above) left a mess of unanswered questions about different variables (breed genetics, individualized gut flora, amount fed by owners, food processing degradation, etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> Since common things occur commonly...in a GSD, your energy, focus (and money) are probably better spent on common breed issues: digestion/gut health (non-organic legume crops are typically dried-off with Round-Up in the field in the U.S., and Round-Up appears to harm gut flora...so this may be a reason to re-evaluate legume-based foods for this tender-tummied breed), immune function (same issue with Round-Up, since gut flora are critical to a healthy immune system), skin (sufficient EFAs seem to be VERY important to this breed's skin health, and EFAs are degraded by heat-processing), spine (spinal issues are the "secret" genetic defect in the breed that not enough owners and vets focus on), hips/elbows (of the two, elbows worry me more than hips)...and cancer. Everyone who has owned enough GSDs over enough years has lost one (or several...) to cancer -- your odds of being hit by that are pretty high. They've even earned the nickname German Cancer Dogs among some vets.
> 
> 
> 
> Right now, I think it's reasonable to to feed good food, that includes added taurine, and ideally minimize non-organic legumes. As for Nutro, it's made by Mars now (like Pedigree and Royal Canin). For the same money, I think you can probably upgrade to a company with a better reputation for ingredient sourcing (i.e., one that's not sourcing out of China, with no history of lab analysis finding euthanasia drugs in the food due to sketchy meat meal sourcing). I wouldn't change *only* because they're on the list, but I'd consider changing to upgrade ingredient quality control generally, if you're interested in that for broader health concerns. If you can get Igor off of kibble, that would be worth thinking about, if you can afford high-quality, balanced, commercial raw or dehydrated diets.
> 
> 
> IMHO, the science just isn't there to support an evidence-based conclusion that feeding any food on this list will *CAUSE* DCM in GSDs generally based on a relatively small number of correlated cases that may be impacted by other variables. Please read the retraction request that I linked a few posts up to get a sense on why. There's a lot more work that needs to be done to unpack what's going on, and there may be additional variables that haven't been released to the public yet.


Exactly


----------



## Heartandsoul

Has anyone else wondered why FDA came out with this considering from the beginning there really wasn't much to substantiate? That the correlation was still in the infancy stage and still is. It just seems like they jumped the gun. I'm thinking about all the carcinogens allowed in humangrade food and animal feed that has hard science backing, how long FDA knew about that before t became public knowledge. And now with very little to go concerning Food related DCM caused a hornets nest with this issue. Am I missing something other than speculation of intention?

Edit to add: the way the charts read as per company, it seems to be a big red flag for the 3 major corps.


----------



## Magwart

lrodptl said:


> Grain = grass seed. Do dogs need seeds of grasses?



Would you rather feed them beans and peas? That's really the kibble choice. 

Domestic dogs' digestive systems are very well adapted to rice and oats because they've been eating it along side us as long as we've had human agriculture. I really don't think there's any evidence to support worrying about domestic dogs' biologic ability to digest common grains like rice, oats, and barely, absent a food allergy. And those grains are probably better than the kibble alternative. As I posted above though, the Round-Up issue is still there with most grains (the U.S. oat crop is contaminated), and U.S.-grown rice adds in some arsenic concern. Given GSD digestive and immune problems, I'm starting to wonder if we really ought to be focusing a lot more on that kind of agricultural contamination affecting their gut health...but good luck finding organic kibble! 

If you opt for no grains though, you have to focus on what you're getting instead -- and that's where the problem arises. Here's why you can't have an all-meat kibble:

Grain = carbs. ALL kibble has to have a set percent of carbs for the extrusion machine to work -- you' cannot make kibble without a big bunch of carbs. Kibble starts out as dough that gets pressed through the machine, and the dough is held together by the carbs and binders. Rice, barley and oats hold it together very well and are highly digestible to dogs. OTOH, grain-free kibbles typically use legumes, tapioca, and tubers (white or sweet potatoes) -- which may not be as digestible to dogs. Worse, the heavy addition of legumes boosts the protein numbers on the bag without any more added meat! So you pay more for "high protein" grain-free but may actually get an less-digestible food potentially with *less* meat than the grain-in food (because the protein is coming from chickpeas, lentils, etc.). It's a massive marketing hoax that's swallowed up to 70% of the dog food market.

I like Fromm as a company but take a look at the ingredient list for Fromm Gold's grain-in and grain-free formulas: the protein is the same. The grain-free has a lot of legumes but the grain-in does not. So that means more of the grain-free bag's protein has to be from those legumes. The grain-in food lacks the legumes and thus has to be getting its protein from the meat. The grain-in from Fromm is cheaper...so why wouldn't you choose it if you're going to feed that company's food? If you look at the amount of legumes in Acana and Origin, it's a lot -- and has been increasing over the years -- but if the protein numbers have stayed the same, it stands to reason that they might be saving cost by reducing meat content as they add more beans.

The legumes are the big suspects in the DCM stuff right now, though nobody seems clear on the mechanism or whether there's another set of nutrients involved too, plus a breed gene that gets triggered, plus variations in gut flora plus...who knows. There's old research (many years old) about fiber interfering with taurine that is being looked at again, but it may even be something new going on in some dogs with a different set of metabolic processes. Nobody seems to know the mechanism or why only a small number of non-Goldens are affected, why some dogs with DCM have normal taurine and others don't, etc. So it could yet turn out to be something totally different. 



The hard question for those who feed grain-free though is this: what benefit do you see in feeding your dog so many legumes?

I agree with the advice to feed a grain-in food if you're going to feed kibble -- vets probably should have been giving that advice though even without the DCM scare IMHO. If nothing else, buying grain-in kibble at least avoids wasting money on marketing ingredient trickery. If something ever comes of the DCM research, it may end up being safer to avoid the legume-based kibbles and opt for grain-in, with added taurine for now (though we don't yet really know). Finding kibble without legumes though is becoming harder and harder! And finding both organic AND legume-free...I don't know if it exists.


----------



## bnormal

After a bit of research I've ordered a small bag of Annamaet Original Puppy to try. Magwart, thanks for your comments.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I was feeding Cava the LBP Fromm Gold (grain-in) until she was a little under a year old. At that point I wanted to switch to Farmina Ancestral Grain, but because it was one of the foods with no legumes or potatoes and there were no reported DCM cases with dogs being fed Farmina, it was very difficult to find. Everywhere I looked was sold out. 

I have since switched her over, I can sometimes get Farmina on Chewy.com, other times I've had to order directly from the Farmina website, but in the interim I used Annamaet Encore, a grain-in food that also doesn't have potatoes or legumes. She only had one bag but did well on it, and I wouldn't hesitate to sub that in again if I couldn't get Farmina in time. I believe there were also no reported DCM cases tied to Annamaet foods.


----------



## Nigel

Ranger sneaks some of my Redbull and it has taurine in it so we're all good.


----------



## Jenny720

Interesting info here https://m.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859?tsid=0.5253058075522898&source=result


----------



## Magwart

@Jenny720, it's a closed group and some of us are not on FB by choice. Do you mind summarizing whatever it is you want to share, and identify the source?


----------



## Jenny720

Magwart said:


> @Jenny720, it's a closed group and some of us are not on FB by choice. Do you mind summarizing whatever it is you want to share, and identify the source?


As what I can interpret right now from what I read it is another place to get grossly confused but it is a good place to follow and find out information regarding updates, future studies , present written complaints, links to nutritionists for people wish to feed raw or fresh food diets. It is interesting yet again to see the only foods that have been found that follow the guidelines recommended by the world small animal veterinary association which are limited to Purina, royal canine, science diet , eukanuba, iams excluding grainfree formulas in these lines. It is hard to believe there is no other good foods according to these guidelines out there it really is hard to digest those ingredients mentally.


----------



## Jenny720

Until more thorough studies are done and answers I will just continue to rotate kibbles which is a big challenge to find a few different kibbles that are without potatoes to fit into rotation and switch things up more and always add dehydrated beef patties and get back on track feeding fresh prepared raw at least once a week.


----------



## MayzieGSD

My vet is offering screenings (ultrasound) for DCM for $75. Worth it to do? I have not noticed symptoms except for occasional coughing (Bruno) not frequent. He has been eating Fromm Four Stars grain free for years but most recently switched to Fromm Gold and am adding sardines once a week.


----------



## Jenny720

MayzieGSD said:


> My vet is offering screenings (ultrasound) for DCM for $75. Worth it to do? I have not noticed symptoms except for occasional coughing (Bruno) not frequent. He has been eating Fromm Four Stars grain free for years but most recently switched to Fromm Gold and am adding sardines once a week.


Sure why not -especially if you notice a cough even though it’s random cough.


----------



## Jenny720

Annamaet has put this out for anyone looking for looking for foods to rotate, change foods, looking for a food with a veterinary nutritionist , a nutritionist, and has done food trials. Also Dr. Tims. 
http://www.annamaet.com/news/DCM_up...EFjhmxOHp2Alo2C6XCfCIltpJvXPhLnlHNuA-ATPzN5l0


----------



## bnormal

Just got a 5lb bag of Annamaet Original Puppy. But Igor hasn't had much of an appetite the last 2 days. Certainly Nutro max is out for good. If Igor doesn't care for the Annamaet then Dr. Tims is next.


----------



## WIBackpacker

This is way out there, but I’ve been trying to dig up information on the changes in agricultural pea crops over the last few years.

It is a fact that the market for the lowly pea abruptly grew, and prices per bushel/pound are WAY up. I can’t find much in the way of whether or not cultivars were changed around 2016, 2017, or beyond, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they have. That new name brand veggie burger (for humans) caused another recent spike in demand for peas. 

If cultivars, pesticide schedule, or processing method changed, it could affect everything that eats them. I’m oddiy fascinated by legumes (possibly) being a piece of this puzzle, since the plants themselves behave unlike other green growing things. They have different chemical processes, and people who raise herbivores on forage are a vast fountain of info about legume digestibility and nutrition.... 

There is pressure in plant tech right now to develop higher (and higher!) protein content pea cultivars for use in vegetarian foodstuffs AND the pet food industry. As we have developed square-ish tomatoes that transport better, seedless fruits, and hybrids beyond count, peas are now in the spotlight. 

TL, DR, I wonder if we have brought about significant changes to the peas in our food system. End of loopy theory for the week.


----------



## Sabis mom

Sabis mom said:


> Top 20 Foods and Products that have been Genetically Modified
> 
> I was looking for info on peas and found this. Informative if somewhat slanted(written by organic growers). I have been questioning from the start whether it's the actual ingredients or specific to how the ingredients are produced.
> Note that potatoes, peas, soy and corn are all on this list. As a species dogs have evolved into being eating our leftovers so to state at this point that it's not ok seems odd.





WIBackpacker said:


> This is way out there, but I’ve been trying to dig up information on the changes in agricultural pea crops over the last few years.
> 
> It is a fact that the market for the lowly pea abruptly grew, and prices per bushel/pound are WAY up. I can’t find much in the way of whether or not cultivars were changed around 2016, 2017, or beyond, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they have. That new name brand veggie burger (for humans) caused another recent spike in demand for peas.
> 
> If cultivars, pesticide schedule, or processing method changed, it could affect everything that eats them. I’m oddiy fascinated by legumes (possibly) being a piece of this puzzle, since the plants themselves behave unlike other green growing things. They have different chemical processes, and people who raise herbivores on forage are a vast fountain of info about legume digestibility and nutrition....
> 
> There is pressure in plant tech right now to develop higher (and higher!) protein content pea cultivars for use in vegetarian foodstuffs AND the pet food industry. As we have developed square-ish tomatoes that transport better, seedless fruits, and hybrids beyond count, peas are now in the spotlight.
> 
> TL, DR, I wonder if we have brought about significant changes to the peas in our food system. End of loopy theory for the week.


Not all that loopy of a theory. I posted a while back wondering if the ingredients were the problem or if it had more to do with how they are produced. And the more I dig the more obvious the answer seems. They need to stop screwing with our food!


----------



## Magwart

@*WIBackpacker*, it's not way out there. I think there's possibly an industrial-agriculture link too -- whether herbicide, pesticide, or GMO, or some combination. I don't know how long they've been drying-down the U.S. and Canadian legume crops in the field with Round-Up before harvesting, but that's something that has had my attention since I found out about it recently. Here's more about it -- levels are so high in the final product that they sometimes exceed Canada's legal limit:

https://safefoodmatters.org/2017/09...-legumes-cereals-because-of-farming-dry-down/
https://safefoodmatters.org/2017/10/30/objecting-to-glyphosate-desiccation/



There's a literature in Pubmed about the antibiotic effect of glyphosate on gut flora. It's likely not the only agricultural chemical with that effect.


----------



## Jenny720

No it’s not way out there and each dog can react differently according to its genetics. I am sure all the crops effected and not surprised in the least, as they are popping up cancer treatment centers here in NY like they are 7 elevens and Dunkin Doughnuts- a very off putting sight to see- this is no exaggeration. Not to mentioned all crops are also watered with water that probably is overloaded with atrazine. Atrazine is banned in other countries, as it is well known it contaminates the water supply.


----------



## bnormal

What kills me about the FDA is when they recall human food because it has traces of salmonella. They rarely follow up with what was the cause. Just return the food to the store and hope for the best. Do they not know the cause or do they not want to tell us? Sorry, I realize this doesn't have anything to do with the topic.


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Dr. Jean Dodds

*Hemopet Responds to the FDA Implicating 16 Brands of Dog Food That May Cause Heart Disease in Dogs*


https://www.hemopet.org/fda-updates...il&utm_term=0_2ab0e3771c-111a11c44e-214080585


----------



## JonRob

An excellent and objective discussion of this topic:

http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2019/...linical+Nutrition+Service+at+Cummings+School)

Lots of folks will disagree with this, and I'm just posting it for those who are interested in a scientific viewpoint. I think it's dead on, and so does an epidemiologist friend of mine. But I have no interest in arguing with folks about it.


----------



## JonRob

The dog food companies are starting to pay attention, thank God. For the first time, I just saw a dog food ad that said "No peas, legumes, or potatoes."

The FDA was absolutely right to publish the brand names of the dog foods associated with this heart disease, just like they were absolutely right to publish the brand names of the dog foods with pentobarbital or toxic levels of vitamin D in them. People have a right to know this stuff so they can make informed decisions.


----------



## AustinIllini

I think the only full take-home I get from all of this is the science of dog food is pretty terrible. The big 5 (Iams, Purina, Science Diet, Eukenuba, and Royal Canin) do a lot more on the science front but most BEG foods are backed by little to know science. 

And the thing that bothers me is most breeders I have consulted still recommend a grain-free diet, which is a total scam.

As a precautionary measure for now, we put Enzo (our 18 month old) on Purina ProPlan Lamb and Rice. He seems to like it fine and his energy levels have been spectacular. We were big Merrick and Nulo people. Not anymore. I can't trust either of them anymore.


----------



## Magwart

@AustinIllini....Merrick = Purina. Nestle Purina bought them in 2015.


----------



## Heidigsd

People may want to join this Facebook group and read all the sad stories. I had no idea how many dogs were getting sick from these boutique diets. https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/learning_content/



Veterinarians have been bashed for being greedy and accused of pushing food with inferior ingredients for a very LONG time on this board, hopefully that will no longer be tolerated!


----------



## Magwart

The plot thickens:








FDA continues to stonewall vets and dog owners on canine DCM data. Did farm lobby get senators to muzzle regulators? | The Canine Review


One reason for the atypical FDA resistance could be because in 2020 Dr. Solomon, the FDA CVM director, made what he apparently believed was a private vow to ...




thecaninereview.com





And there's a wee bit of new evidence zeroing in on peas in particular -- and a B-vitamin transport mechanism: Biochemical Analysis of Dog Foods Provides New Clues On Causes of Diet-Associated DCM -- it's too early to be sure, but it's promising to move beyond anecdotal case reports. Interestingly, the authors said they could not rule out crop contamination and mycotoxins either because they weren't testing for them ("We are also unable to exclude the possibility that added or naturally occurring chemicals (e.g., pesticides, mycotoxins, and heavy metals) are present as toxic contaminants in the foods, but were not detected through metabolomics.").

Meanwhile, there's a credibility contest going on between one group of nutritionists (who've been allegedly revealed to have financial support from Purina & Mars), and another (who've been allegedly revealed to have financial support Zignature), over whose research is more untrustworthy. Given the billions at stake, one has to be a skeptical reader all around. Here's an example of the "food fight":








"150+ Study Analysis Shows No Link between Grain-free and DCM?" Not quite.


DVM Student blog about Veterinary Medicine




www.docofalltrades.net


----------

