# GSD variation compared to other breeds



## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Was looking at the pix of the adorable blue GSD puppy in another thread, and musing on the tremendous variety in GSD colors. Most all that I've seen have the same basic bone and body structure, but there are the traditional black and tan saddlebacks (with varied patterns therein), the black, white, blues, sables, reds, etc.

I don't recall seeing any other breed with this much variety--most other breeds look much the same but with a few color choices only (e.g. blond, chocolate, black labs; white or black scotties, etc.) 

How about it, breeders? Is any other breed as diversified in appearance as the GSD?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Akitas come in several different colors

Akita Colors & markings -


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Both Basenjis and Shiba Inus come in 4 different colors.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Pomeranians come in a ton of different colors 

Pomeranian Colors


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

All these other breeds come in different colors, but do they have all different lines as well like the GSD does? 

I can't think of one breed who has so many colors, lines, lines within lines to serve different purposes like this breed.


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Siberian Huskies come in 15 different colors and have a multitude of patterns and eye colors as well. 

I would say the husky is one of the top variety color/pattern dogs. 

Colors of the Siberian Husky


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Scotties do not come in white...there may be wheatens that are so light they look white, but they're not white genetically. Scotties are Brindle, Wheaten, or Black.

There are 28 different colors in the English Cocker Spaniel.

Hounds have no real restrictions on colors or patterns.

Dalmatians come in several colors, but are only showable if they're black or liver


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The West Highland White Terrier is actually a white Scottie. Or at least, that's how the breed was created as white Scotties weren't allowed, but people liked them so voila, new breed!

Back to the original question, yes many breeds have as much, sometimes more, variety as GSDs. With GSDs it isn't just color and coat differences but vastly different types of bloodlines with very different structural, physical and temperamental characteristics as will. This is also true in many other breeds. Not that this is a good thing, but it is reality.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

American Cocker Spaniels come in many different colors (some "allowed" and some not) as well as Show and Working lines (with VERY different features).

Labs also come in different colors and different lines.

Border Collies also come in different colors and have VERY different lines (show vs working).


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> All these other breeds come in different colors, but do they have all different lines as well like the GSD does?
> 
> I can't think of one breed who has so many colors, lines, lines within lines to serve different purposes like this breed.


This is true, although there are several lines of the Siberian Husky. Seppala is the orginal sled dog line for the husky which is bred for being a sled dog/racing. Then you have the AKC show-line Siberian husky which is far different looking and work ethic from the working line dog. Then you have the 1/2 and 1/2 Seppala/Showline. 










Seppala Siberian Husky - working line sled dog









AKC Showline Siberian Husky










Mix of Seppala/Showline


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Most working, herding and sporting breeds have at least one significant division in lines between show dogs, and working/hunting dogs. And there is every bit as much variance in structure and temperament between hunting retrievers and show retrievers, working border collies and show border collies, hunting setters and working setters... and the list could go on... as there is in GSDs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I think the American Pit Bull Terrier has every color and pattern under the sun. White, black, buckskin, red nosed red, black nosed red, blue, fawn, spotted, ticked, brindle, black & tan, even merle. I have seen some with a sable pattern, not sure what it's called.

And there are so many different lines of APBT it would make your head swim, more if you count AmStaffs. Aside from fighting, there are weight pull lines, catch dog lines, "blue whales", etc...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> The West Highland White Terrier is actually a white Scottie


Actually, they come from white Cairn Terriers 

Also, Merle doesn't exist in the pure APBT. If it's merled...it's a mix!


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## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

My WGSD has every fault listed in the AKC for showing a GSD. I didn't realize that so many other breeds had disqualifying colors/coats/lines. I feel less shunned. 

I am familiar with the many colors/lines/etc of Border Collies, since my parents and sister have always owned them. 

This has been a very interesting thread...Thanks to OP.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Also, Merle doesn't exist in the pure APBT. If it's merled...it's a mix!


Not according to the old dog-men I've talked to, who have raised APBTs since the days when fighting was still legal. It's definitely a rare color, but it exists in the gene pool. There are also black and tan ABPTs marked like Rottweilers, again very rare.

I know certain colors are DQ for AmStaffs but not for ABPTs; the UKC is a lot more lenient in acceptable colors.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

All the APBT people I know tell me the opposite...that APBT does not carry Merle, and that any APBT that is merle is a mix

Also, from the UKC APBT standard:

*DISQUALIFICATIONS *
Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. Viciousness or extreme shyness. Unilateral or bilateral deafness. Long coat. Bobbed tail. Albinism. Merle


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Jackie...hypothetically speaking of course.....BUT...to be considered a "disqualifying fault"...one would assume...it *must *be a trait/fault that is *within* the breed genetics.??! correct??
Otherwise...there would be no reason for the trait to be mentioned?!
*I don't know the APBT standard....but it just seems to be an important enough "possible genetic" trait...for the standard to list it...JMO*


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Seppala/show line mixes made me wonder why it is that breeders mix show line and working lines so often (if they do)? Is there a reason why mixing a show line with a working line would be desirable?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Robin, the people I talk to told me that merle is a recent occurrence, and that it is happening because people have been breeding "hog dogs" (for hog catching). They cross Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dogs (which come in merle) to APBTs (more gameness). You now have your merle "American Pit Bull Terrier".

The merle was introduced, and was not previously seen, hence the DQ


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## glider222 (Jul 23, 2011)

My German Shepard is all blonde and cream. Except for a light black saddle and nose. She was very dark black as a pup.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Robin, the people I talk to told me that merle is a recent occurrence, and that it is happening because people have been breeding "hog dogs" (for hog catching). They cross Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dogs (which come in merle) to APBTs (more gameness). You now have your merle "American Pit Bull Terrier".
> 
> The merle was introduced, and was not previously seen, hence the DQ


The dog-man I talked to says that merle has been in APBTs a long time, but apparently the color was not desireable, perhaps even then there was a suspicion of crossbreeding with Catahoulas but they didn't have DNA testing back then. He said that many were culled at birth.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

did you know a Pomeranian is a Keeshond????



LaRen616 said:


> Pomeranians come in a ton of different colors
> 
> Pomeranian Colors


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Tbarrios333 said:


> Seppala/show line mixes made me wonder why it is that breeders mix show line and working lines so often (if they do)? Is there a reason why mixing a show line with a working line would be desirable?


I would think they did it to widen the gene pool as well alter the look. The looks of Showline dogs and workline dogs in any breed are different. 

As for the husky, the showline dogs are meant to look nice and workingline dogs are meant to work. Although the husky keeps most of it's "drive" to run in the showline, the Seppala line is much more equipped to do the job. Showline dogs tend to be stalkier than their workling Seppala counterparts which are typically lanky with a sleek body. The fur is quite different too.

I think the same can be said for any workingline/showline breed.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

I just joined the forum, as a Pit lover this thread caught my eye. I don't currently have a GSD. My last Shepherd was actually a Belgian but I love working breeds 



Freestep said:


> I think the American Pit Bull Terrier has every color and pattern under the sun. White, black, buckskin, red nosed red, black nosed red, blue, fawn, spotted, ticked, brindle, black & tan, even merle. I have seen some with a sable pattern, not sure what it's called.
> 
> And there are so many different lines of APBT it would make your head swim, more if you count AmStaffs. Aside from fighting, there are weight pull lines, catch dog lines, "blue whales", etc...


APBT do come in many color and patterns, though merle isn't acceptable. They also have different build and type. The variation is truly many looks within 1 breed. 

As for lines, there are a lot but it really seems to be additional lines stemming from the same lines / dogs.

I also think while there are a few show lines most "show dogs" and "show bred" dogs are from immediate game lines and share the same type (while all the rest go back to the same dogs much farther for longer established show lines). Same with weight pull. I don't know any hog catch lines I can think of but do know game line dogs used for this also. 

I should probably post example of what I mean on the lines. I may do that.




Freestep said:


> Not according to the old dog-men I've talked to, who have raised APBTs since the days when fighting was still legal. It's definitely a rare color, but it exists in the gene pool. There are also black and tan ABPTs marked like Rottweilers, again very rare.
> 
> I know certain colors are DQ for AmStaffs but not for ABPTs; the UKC is a lot more lenient in acceptable colors.


Black & tan is less common in the overall gene pool but not exactly rare, tan point is also recessive so it is easy to be passed along unlike merle. Certain lines are also known for producing a lot of tan points like hammonds, sorrells or some of the bolio/tombstone stuff. I've had more than one tan point from different lines too.

where are all these merles? I seen pedigrees for a few generations, that's it. 

They might not have had DNA then but we have it now so it'd be very easy for people to prove their merle Pits pure if they really were. 

Most important merle is dominant and it isn't as if it just pops up. So the culled at birth theory makes no sense. You have to breed merle to get merles so why would they keep breeding an undesirable color just to cull them. 



robinhuerta said:


> Jackie...hypothetically speaking of course.....BUT...to be considered a "disqualifying fault"...one would assume...it *must *be a trait/fault that is *within* the breed genetics.??! correct??
> Otherwise...there would be no reason for the trait to be mentioned?!
> *I don't know the APBT standard....but it just seems to be an important enough "possible genetic" trait...for the standard to list it...JMO*


This is true but at the same time if a color started to be produced that previously wasn't the breed club can make it a DQ and nor allowed them to be registered.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SpicyBulldog said:


> Most important merle is dominant and it isn't as if it just pops up. So the culled at birth theory makes no sense. You have to breed merle to get merles so why would they keep breeding an undesirable color just to cull them.


Hm, that's a good point, but perhaps if the odd merle was an outstanding dog, you'd breed him and keep only the non-merle offspring? Being a dominant gene it would be easy to breed out. Kind of like maskless GSDs.

I remember seeing an old photograph of a merle in a book. Looked purebred but who knows? I'm not an expert on the APBT. Might be a good question to ask on the gamedogs.com forums.


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## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Hm, that's a good point, but perhaps if the odd merle was an outstanding dog, you'd breed him and keep only the non-merle offspring? Being a dominant gene it would be easy to breed out. Kind of like maskless GSDs.
> 
> I remember seeing an old photograph of a merle in a book. Looked purebred but who knows? I'm not an expert on the APBT. Might be a good question to ask on the gamedogs.com forums.


That is a good point on the out standing dog being bred, but like you said it'd be easy to breed out. So the color would be lost. I guess what gets me is that they just popped up all the sudden. I've seen a couple breeders with merle dogs (this was in 05 probably) and they had only 2-3 generations of merles. Yeah someone did some fishy business. 

I'd like to see the book for my own curiosity, though yes a mix could look pure (history has shown this). You could also theoretically get a practically pure merle if you bred to a catahoula or whatever then bred back to Pits. Since it is dominant you could keep the color.

I think its been asked on gamedogs before, you can probably search fir it. 

Merle doesn't typically come up when speaking with old timers but 1 I know doesn't believe them pure and Amy Greenwood publically stated that they aren't pure. Her father is the late Ralph Greenwood reputed dogman and owner of the ADBA. 

All and all the APBT certainly has a huge amount of variation and color.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

PyrSheps have a huge variation in coats, colors, ears, tails and size:



























































































Although under it all, they are actually fairly consistent as far as general structure and type goes. I think Border Collies overall have the widest variation in looks.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SpicyBulldog said:


> I guess what gets me is that they just popped up all the sudden. I've seen a couple breeders with merle dogs (this was in 05 probably) and they had only 2-3 generations of merles. Yeah someone did some fishy business.


I agree with you, if it's suddenly "popping up" a lot, there's got to be some Catahoula or something involved.



> I'd like to see the book for my own curiosity, though yes a mix could look pure (history has shown this).


Wish I could remember the name of the book. It was a long time ago that I read it. The caption said something along the lines of "A Merle Bulldog, an unusual color for the breed".


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Chris Wild said:


> Back to the original question, yes many breeds have as much, sometimes more, variety as GSDs. With GSDs it isn't just color and coat differences but vastly different types of bloodlines with very different structural, physical and temperamental characteristics as will. This is also true in many other breeds. *Not that this is a good thing, but it is reality.*


Chris what do you mean with the last line? Are you saying that variations of type are bad? 

I'm very interested in the subject temperament variations in the GSD.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Wow! This has been a fascinating and eye-opening schooling from some obviously very knowledgeable people! Thanks!


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## SpicyBulldog (Jul 23, 2011)

As for merle even without it Pits still have a lot of colors something like 50+


IMO variation in type isn't bad in itself though certain variations / types may be.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> did you know a Pomeranian is a Keeshond????


Actually the pomeranian is deriverd from the german spitz (bred down version) where as the keeshond is from the netherlands.


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