# Opinion- Ruger's breeder a BYB or no?



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

Now, I don't want to start a fire here, but I'm posting a poll because I am really interested in people's opinions. I feel that the breeder I got Ruger from, while not active in "dog sports" was also not a BYB or if so, not typical. However, I won't get mad if people think they are still just a BYB after reading the following, and want to express their thoughts as to why, POLITELY and in a non-condescending manner.

About the breeder:

1) They are new to the breed, having gotten their first GSD 4 years ago (she is 4 now) after doing research on the breed and deciding it was the one for them. They prefer working line dogs, though this particular bitch is "Am show line" (she looks more German to me, good solid bone, straight back, but her sire had good bone as well, CH Von Hornberger's Royal Prince.).

2) They have bred two litters and have a third coming (all from same sire), the female was bred at 2 years old and again at 3 1/2 and the next one is due in a few mos. They had gotten OFA Good hip and Elbow Normal ratings on her, before she was bred the first time (to an AKC Reg. Czech stud with 0/0 "a" hips). They are able to provide the documentation on these tests/cert's, so it's confirmed and not just their word. This is her last litter and she's getting spayed. They also have a close relative who shows and breeds Labs, who has helped them learn what they need to do before breeding, and during the pregnancy/whelping process.

3) They kept a full sister to my pup (from the prev litter) and she helps them herd their goats and such, has good manners and strong but not crazy drive to herd/chase, as well as a friendly, open temperament towards people and children (they have 4 children between eight and 14 yrs old). She has never tried to hurt the goats, even the smaller kids. All pups are given their shots until they are sold (after 10 wks), and they have Limited only AKC registration. While they don't have a spay/neuter contract, they encourage speutering of their pups, since any litter would be nonregisterable by a pup they produced anyway, and they have said they don't want people breeding their pups (I am going to suggest a speuter contract to them, I don't think they know they can do that, actually). They are fed Cal Nat puppy food (which I think is pretty good since even a few serious show breeders I know feed Pedigree). Their pups are kept in a clean environment, and have not only their littermates, but their older sister and another female GSD (LH East German working lines) to teach them about socializing. 

4) After meeting all their dogs and talking to them, they seem to have it together, and are willing to answer any question I ask them. As soon as I asked about Hip xrays they provided the paperwork, no prompting. Their dogs are well mannered, have good temperaments, and I can say that while Ru has a strong prey/chase drive, he is also gentle and calm around kids, small animals (though this took some training since he's clumsy- he was never mean), and very, very smart. 

So, based on this, what say ye? As a side note: They don't compete in "dog sports" but the dogs they have do herd their goats and have very good obedience and responsiveness, and Ruger is shaping up to be a very good candidate for many things that I never considered doing before, as I had only thought to do Agility and Obed/Rally-O when I got him. Now we're looking at TD training and I want to find someplace to do a herding test.

Ruger @ 12 mos, 78.8lbs and 25.5" at the shoulder:


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I think Ruger is just the handsome-est boy,,I love those black dawgs!

I would not consider them byb'ers..I would say "hobby" breeders? 

The most important thing to me are good health/temperament, they've done their health testing, and from what you say, they have good tempered dogs.

In fact PM me the breeder's name , I am in CT, and am always on the look out for good breeders in my area.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I wouldn't consider them byb either Sounds like they have learned about breeding from different sources do health testing I don't think that just because someone doesn't title their dogs makes them a byb


----------



## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

They sound good to me! If you're not interested in dog sport I don't see why you should have to get a dog from someone else who breeds for those characteristics. They seem to have done their homework and actually care about their pups, so they seem to be pretty good.

Nice looking boy, too!


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I wouldn't technically say a BYB either. I think people try hard to put a label to everything and sometimes it just can't be done. Since people are stuck on titles maybe BB or BIT??? Beginner Breeder, Breeders In Training lol. Everyone starts somewhere quite honestly and if they are doing what they should be doing and putting the animals first then it says something to me. While I like my breeder to have titles it's not everything to me because there are plenty that buy a dog with titles or pay another trainer to get a title on their dog and personally I prefer the breeder to obtain the title because to me it's about the process of obtaining the title not just the title itself. They learn the ins and outs of their dogs through working them and GSDs are designed to be herders so if they are training them to herd then they are still doing what they need to do in my book. Plus if their dogs are well trained and they are working them in something they still know their dogs because they trained them and went through the process so know what to expect. Sounds like a decent start quite honestly.


----------



## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Honestly...

The lack of titling in this case doesn't bother me much. The dog works the farm and that is also a test of working ability. I would want to see the parents off the farm though to see how they are nerve wise in a more populous setting like downtown where there is more going on. I've seen dogs that are great on their farms with their people but who could never handling coming into town either through lack of socialization or poor nerves.


----------



## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

I think your breeder is a hobby breeder . If you're happy with his temperament that's what it really matters and just my personal opinion titling isn't really that important to me. Sure it's nice to know what you're getting i think it's just a piece of paper.


----------



## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

First off your Ruger is a gorgeous boy ;-) They sound like pretty responsible hobby breeders to me!!!! and just b/c they don't have titles on their dogs doesn't mean their dogs are crap, so to speak. Titles are not everything to the dog.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think they are BYB. I, personally, prefer breeders who show or trial their dogs just because I like to see the proof of what they are producing but I do not think that showing /trialing makes a good breeder either.

My definition of a BYB is...

1) They have NO health checks/certifications on their "breeding" stock, nor do they plan on getting any.
2) They have done NO research into breeding.
3) They do not care where their puppies go as long as the cash is there.
4) They breed the same female over and over without giving her a break.
5) They do not have a contract and don't care what happens to the puppy.
6) Vet care for pups is spotty at best.

I"m sure there are lots of other items that could be added to the list of red flags.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am not sure how may breeders breed like that I don't know maybe some do I guess I also don't feel that there is anything helpful between distinguishing between a backyard breeder hobby breeder commercial breeder. For me the important criteria is are they willing to take the dog back./health clearances. Why do you want a dog from that breeding because you posted for reccommendations on the internet and someone gave you a name? It almost becomes like I think I'll get levis because everyone else is wearing them...not that levis aren't good jeans. When I bought my house there were certain things that attracted me to it gave me a good feeling...it just felt right. It probably doesn't make a lot of sense but to me selecting a breeding would be the same thing. Even if you select the breeding based on color and you pick the dog out--if you came to the internet people would tell you thats not how to do it...but if it worked out right for you what was wrong with that? I also believe that your first dog will likely be different from your next dog because if you get involved in doing things with your dog you will meet people and be exposed to different dogs and from there you will get ideas on what you want from your next dog...and to me that doesn't mean that my first dog wasn't a great dog or that my first breeder wasn't a good breeder because he introduced me to the breed It gets tiresome to me to just read the same old things over and over again


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am the heavy that will call them a BYB. But I want to say why I am. 

I think that BYB is a continuum, most do love and care about their dogs, but most are not very well informed about many aspects of breeding. 

There are BYBs that are close to puppy mills, trying to breed every bitch every litter, putting the least into their dogs to get the most out of them. 

And other BYBs that are very close and almost indistinguishable from hobby breeders. 

What makes these people NOT hobby breeders in my opinion is that, from what they posted, they do not have a goal for what they are producing. They bred an American line dog, championship lines, but with a straight back -- that sounds like a pet quality American line dog, to a czech dog, repeating the breeding three times and then spay. 

If we knew what aspects they liked in the American dog and what they liked about the Czech dog, what they hoped it would produce and how they intended to go forward with the pup or pups they kept out of the match, then maybe I would notch it up to hobbyist.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Their responsiveness to your questions impressed me. They sound like new breeders; every breeder has a first litter, and a second, and a third, etc. Hopefully they learn something with every litter.

Selzer raises a valid point. They should have a goal in mind, a direction they are trying to go. Maybe they do, maybe they have two good dogs and are happy with the pups, but haven't thought about what their next move is. 

They sound like they're trying to do it right. I would not call them "backyard breeders," as they have taken steps to health test their dogs. They don't sound like they're just in it for the money. Calling these folks "backyard breeders" would be insulting. "Hobby breeder" makes it sound like they are not serious about what they're doing. That doesn't sound like the case, either.


----------



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

If it helps, I can say that their female bitch is a nice compliment to the working line Czech male. 

Selzer, you may have seen Ruger's pedigree on here, there are threads on them. The female is more of the "German type", but they are aiming for the German/working type dog, so her lines per se may not have had anything to do with it so much as her conformation and temperament, very alert, good focus, aloof at first but not nervy (she does warm up to you after a few mins of sniffing). I don't think you're a "bad guy" for stating your opinion, because I am looking for honesty and input from everyone, so that I can learn and have things to consider myself, and I appreciate the way that you phrased it as well. Thank you!

If it helps, this is what they told me, because I asked what they were going for so I could give them any info I may have had on GSDs that their lab breeder friend did not. 

They want to produce working line dogs that are not _so_ driven that they can't be owned by people like me, who are looking for a dog to do things with actively, but not as intense as SchH competitions and the like. They want to breed healthy, structurally correct GSDs, not oversized or fad colors (the Czech male is black, their female is bi-color with rich tan pigment but not so dark as to be called red). They have had B&T, Bi-color and black pups out of these litters (though I have only seen the Bi-color and black pups, their B&T pups had already sold before I saw Ru's litter).


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Krystal, there is no universal definition for the following terms, puppy mill, byb, hobby breeder, small breeder, commercial breeder, reputable breeder. 

If you are happy with your dog and your breeder is responsive to you when you call her, than call her a breeder and do not get worried about all the baloney that these terms imply. 

I mixed an American/German showline dog with a German showline dog when I started out. If I had it to do over again, I would have waited until I had years of experience before outcrossing to another line. But for new breeders and small breeders, it takes even more time to gain the experience necessary to make these decisions. 

I am guessing that most working line breeders would agree that you could probably avoid the extremely high energy uncontrollable dogs and stay within a specific line of dogs, by breeding away from the extreme dogs/lines. But these are the kinds of things we just do not know going in to it, unless we spend years studying the specific lines prior to begining. 

I got the impression that your breeder had 1 litter, then another, then a third and now she is done breeding. Is she going to continue on with the pup out of the litter?

In my opinion, for what that is worth, anyone breeding to produce one litter, or anyone breeding one bitch and not intending to take their best and go on, is a BYB. If they were not pleased with what was produced, and are now going with a different bitch or dog, that would be fine, but I would think they were pleased as they repeated the breeding twice. 

If you ask any BYB what they were hoping to accomplish when mixing the lines, you are going to get answers like, I want dogs that look like GSDs, but have a better temperament, or I want dogs without all that sloping, but are still controllable, or any number of things. 

What you said was a common opinion of what is wrong with working lines (according to people that like the other lines), and their answer is to inject the showline dog. It is very likely that they used what was available and when they considered the possibilities, one of them was a working type dog with less energy and drive, if that corresponded with what they perceived that you were looking for, that is the answer. 

Now IF they are going forward with a pup out of this breeding, then they have to have a plan for how they intend to breed her and for what qualities. 

Hobby sounds better than BYB, because people spend a lot of time and money on their hobbies, and many people get really good at it. 

But if someone is not breeding toward producing a specific set of qualities in a dog, then they are just breeding dogs. Just breeding dogs can be a definition of a BYB. 

I think that you believe your breeder IS trying to produce certain qualities, and maybe they are. It can certainly go either way. I think that if and why or why not they are breeding the progeny of these dogs would make a difference in my opinion. And if they are, what they are breeding her to, and why, and what they plan to do with her progeny makes a difference. 

BYBs may breed their dog's progeny for generations, this certainly does not make them hobby breeders. It is the plan and purpose in their breeding decisions that I am interested in. 

I do not think any breeder who doesn't intend to hold some dogs back and breed them is a serious breeder.

I know I am rambling, but I am trying to make my brain and fingers connect properly.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I don't think they are BYBs, just hobby breeders.


----------



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

Selzer, I'm typing at 3:33am my time, so I can feel you on the "making brain and fingers connect" end of it. It's not always easy to explain your thoughts over the internet in a clear fashion!

They kept back the female from litter 1 to see how she turned out and have decided not to breed her, but they have retained a male from Ru's litter who they are considering breeding from if he turns out the way they are hoping. I keep in regular contact with Ru's breeder, so unless something happens I'll probably know when and if that's going to happen. Wolf, the pup they retained, was the closest in the litter structurally to my Ruger, only a bit more "refined" (not bitchy looking, just...cleaner lines, if that makes any sense). They have also managed to keep in contact with several other people who own pups from them, and are always interested to see how the rest of the litter turned out.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

When I think of BYB, i think of that as more of a negative thing. No health checks and only in it for the money.

Your breeder sounds more of a hobby breeder. They probably won't produce any champion dogs, but sound like they're doing the right thing to produce good pet quality dogs with the right intentions.

I voted for hobby.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The real question is....."Are you happy with your dog & breeder"?
ALL breeders, should have a plan & goal, when producing "life".
You can be the nicest person, with the best intentions, with super dogs & pedigrees......but if you do not have a "goal" set forth, for generations down the line...you are not a hobbyist.
A hobbyist (IMO)...is someone who breeds for the desire & passion to produce better that the parents with each litter.
They have goals and a "plan".....it is not done because they liked a "look", or "wanted to see what 2 bloodlines would produce". They do not look at breeding as a"financial gain"...nor do they look at breeding in a "nonchalant manner".
There are more breeders that "fall" into the categories of BYB and Commercial Breeders...than true hobbyists.
But in regards to ANY breeders.....if the buyer is happy....that is ALL that truly matters!

**this is only my personal opinion-nothing more**


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like they are making a great stab at being a reputable breeder. 

It would behoove them to join a club and get known with their dogs. It is not hard to take any good dog and put performance titles on them. What it does for them is get their dogs appreciated by people who are committed to dogs, interested in dogs, and willing to train and work with their dogs. 

Not having the titles, does not put them in the BYB category for me, but if it helps them to find better homes for their puppies, than it begs the question why they are not going for it.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not really sure how to classify them, or if it even matters. Everyone wants something slightly different and has different standards. Would I buy dogs from them? Absolutely no chance, but I don't see the purpose in voting them into one category or the other when I have no idea who they are and have never seen their dogs in person. When I'm looking for a puppy all that really matters to me is what *I* want, and any info from other people only as it pertains to whether a breeder has or doesn't have what I want. I guess I do not see the value in buying a dog and then critiquing every aspect of the breeder_ after_ the fact. If there is any reason to be unhappy with the dog or breeders or regret purchasing from them (which doesn't have to imply that you don't love the dog), chalk it up to a lesson learned and do better next time. If one is happy with the dog then there's no reason for me to try to change their mind. My only beef is when breeders market something that the clearly do not actually provide.


----------



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

Selzer, I have suggested breed clubs and competing formally with their dogs so that they get more well known, as well as being able to really expand their knowledge of the breed. They are interested in doing something eventually, and I sincerely hope they pursue it. Their oldest daughter has the most interest in competing, but she prefers conformation type events and their dogs are not what really wins in the ring. They _are_ thrilled that I am doing something with Ruger, and I believe a few other people who have pups from them are doing things with their dogs. 

Liesje, I didn't post this to critique my breeder because I feel they needed critiquing, it's more out of curiosity to see what others think of their particular type of breeding program, if that makes any sense? I am definitely very happy with Ru and he is what I was looking for, because I wanted a step up from my very laid back first GSD, but not as intense as a GSD that comes from very drivey, intense lines. He's a good balance between driven and laid back, and is a very good example of what they are trying to achieve with their breedings. 

If I had to break it into classes (**loosely**---just a generalization, I know there are many more facets!), there are "Beginner" laid back perfect for families but not competitive sport type GSDs, "Intermediate" GSDs with low to med level drive that would do well in less "aggressive/intense" types of "dog sport" like Agility/Rally-O/Obed or just family life and could be happy doing either or both, and "Expert" GSDs who have lots of drive and would excell in things like SchH/Police protection work. 

Ruger is an "Intermediate" dog, and perfect for someone like me who is not ready to handle a GSD with a lot of drive and GO all the time, but who wants to be able to handle that eventually and compete in those more intense type sports. I hope that made some sense, and if it didn't, I apologize, I'm running on two hours of sleep.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> What makes these people NOT hobby breeders in my opinion is that, from what they posted, they do not have a goal for what they are producing. They bred an American line dog, championship lines, but with a straight back -- that sounds like a pet quality American line dog, to a czech dog, repeating the breeding three times and then spay.


I voted hobby breeder, but after reading your post I'd like to change to BYB. Selzer, you are completely right, it is the lack of a goal in the breeding what makes me feel more towards a backyard breeder than a hobby breeder, even if they "accidentally" produce what I do like in a dog.


----------



## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I am NO expert buy any stretch of the imagination but I think a BYB without question is like the people I got Lou from. They simply bred their two family pet GSDs. Her parents are very well loved and part of the family. I never did ask them at that time WHY they bred them (something I would def. ask now). The parents were hip checked and the pups were micro chipped and they paid for her first vet check up, but still, they really were just people breeding their own dogs together without much thought of lineage, lines or anything like that. 

And I have to add, in this case, thank GOD they did! Lou is the greatest dog on the face of the planet in my opinion . She's absolutely amazing as is her intelligence and temperament and I have NEVER had such a non destructive dog or one who was as gentle with kids as she is. She is the perfect family dog and like a second child to me  She also has never had to go to the vet (besides routine preventative things) and is extremely healthy.

Your breeder definitely sounds like she is working hard to do it right. Selzer has so much experience and always has excellent advice as far as these things go so she is a good one to listen to.

Your dog is absolutely gorgeous, btw!!!


----------



## Brighthorizondogs (May 31, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well I think Ruger is just the handsome-est boy,,I love those black dawgs!
> 
> I would not consider them byb'ers..I would say "hobby" breeders?
> 
> ...


 I'd like to know too. My GSD service dog may need to retire soon due to her elbows and recent injury. I won't be getting another from the same breeder if I get another one in the near future.


----------



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

Catu said:


> I voted hobby breeder, but after reading your post I'd like to change to BYB. Selzer, you are completely right, it is the lack of a goal in the breeding what makes me feel more towards a backyard breeder than a hobby breeder, even if they "accidentally" produce what I do like in a dog.



Catu, I am not sure if you read the rest of my posts in response to Selzer's questions and concerns, but they put thought into the breeding of their bitch to this particular male, to produce what they wanted. I am not trying to argue with you since I asked for honest opinions, but I also don't want it thought that they didn't think about what they wanted to produce and then plan how to get it (and thankfully for all involved, they succeeded very well).


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Since one post spurs another. There is a possible problem with crossing lines to produce what you are looking for: Let's say you want a dog who is like a working line dog, but has less drive and is is very controllable. 

And to accomplish this, you mix an American showline dog with a Czech working line dog. You are not looking for a lot of angles and your are not looking for extreeme drives, so you pick a pup out of the American lines that has a straight back, and you pick a czech dog that seems to be relatively laid back. 

Unless you have studied the lines, and have access to that information, you can end up with almost anything. You can get a dog that has the temperament you are looking for in the body shape you do not want. You can have an angled dog that is off the scale in intensity. And you can get what you ARE looking for. But your chances of getting a uniform litter that mostly displays the characteristics are slim. 

A better way to go about producing a specific temperament or structure is to stay within the lines you want, study the dogs, and breed in dogs that have the characteristics you are looking for, and then study the get, and determine whether that did what you wanted, and decide what would do the best breeding with the progeny. 

Another method would be to pick the line that best describes what you are hoping for, and study the second line closely. Introduce a dog, and then breed the progeny of that breeding and the progeny of the next breeding back into the original line of dogs, probably best to use line breeding on dogs that you have excellent information on. 

Outcrossing between lines is the iffiest type of breeding. We do it. American lines will inject the German Showline in on occasion, but it is usually done with a lot of thought to what is behind and even more thought to what comes in the future, and for a specific purpose. Otherwise, you almost have to believe that they are using dogs that are available, or that they have very little experience and are trying to make giant steps. 

Even breeding within lines. If you want to correct something, you do not want to breed to the other extreme. You want to breed to a dog with that characteristic correct. Breeding an under-angulated dog to an over-angulated dog compounds the problem, not corrects it. 

Breeders should not be so concerned with improving the breed as they are in creating a balanced dog.


----------



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> You can have an angled dog that is off the scale in intensity. And you can get what you ARE looking for. But your chances of getting a uniform litter that mostly displays the characteristics are slim.



aha! I had not thought of it from this direction. I am very glad you stopped in on this thread Selzer, because I am learning a lot of different ways to see things from you. 



selzer said:


> Breeders should not be so concerned with improving the breed as they are in creating a balanced dog.


 I agree 100% with you on that. But then again, then we'd all have to agree on what "balanced" is.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If I ever started breeding I would not breed 2 different lines unless I for sure knew what I was doing!lol


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

While crossing lines can be a problem as selzer says,,I have to say, the absolutely BEST dog I have ever had was am show line by a ddr sire. 

While I agree there can be inconsistencies doing this, her litters were all pretty consistent temperamentally and structurally. 

In a heartbeat, I would nab another one IF she were still breeding. 

While alot do 'poo poo' crossing lines, sometimes you can find some really great dogs 
as I was lucky enough to


----------



## RebelMoonGSDs (Oct 1, 2009)

I have been thinking about it, and I think that they did take a risk (though they had thought it through using as much knowledge as they have) with their first breeding of this Am/Czech cross, but they also showed good sense (IMHO) for beginners by retaining a pup and keeping track of the other pups as well as they could (lets face it, not everyone cooperates with this, unless it's stated in their contract that they must, which is not something a newer person to breeding would usually think of, I feel.), before deciding to do their repeat breeding that produced Ruger and his littermates. 

I will however say that it took some good amount of luck that they have produced two very consistent litters with this gamble, being so new and not knowing yet all the ways to look at lines and possible crosses, because I agree it could have turned out quite poorly with a very mixed bag of outcomes.


----------

