# Don't want to, don't have to!



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Looking for people's responses to their dogs when the dog is given a command and acts like: I don't want to and I don't have to. I have an 11 month old who just started this...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Lol! Darn adolescents... Or, they pretend they can't hear you despite being 10ft away... I address the issue, otherwise it gets worse, but I also recognize the teenage aspect of 'stretching their wings' and pick my battles, so to speak... They do grow out of it. Stay consistent, firm when necessary, but always fair.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Oh yeah, my 7.5 month old has really started doing this too. I can tell he's thinking, "La la la, I can't hear you! I don't want to so I can't hear you!" So frustrating!

I just make sure not to ask him to do anything unless I'm ready to enforce it. If I ask him to come and he doesn't, I get my butt off the couch, go get him, and bring him to where I was. (If he runs, then I run the other way to get him to chase me.) If he comes, no matter if he takes his sweet time, he gets praise. If he comes quickly, lots of praise and maybe a treat. Same with sits, downs, relax, don't chase the cat, etc. It's like it's back to puppy training!

And I only ask once - this is important because if you ask multiple times, you're just asking him to ignore you.

Like Hineni said, stay consistent, be firm when necessary, and be patient! (Oh, it's so frustrating!!)


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

It is frustrating! But like the other 2 said, stick with it. Make sure you are keeping your dog engaged in training, keep it fun, fun, fun!! No matter how aggravated you get, keep your cool! This only lasts a little while, the effort is sooooo worth it!


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## Stonemoore (Oct 16, 2014)

What McWeagle said. 

My 8 month old intact male is 84 lbs....he does not get a choice, I do not want him knowing he can say no because he is so big! If I give a command, he HAS to do it. It is not his choice to make. So yes, I am very careful not to ask anything if I can't enforce it, and leash on in the house most of the time so I can be sure I am able to enforce. Lots of praise when he does it right.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

Stonemoore said:


> What McWeagle said.
> 
> My 8 month old intact male is 84 lbs....he does not get a choice, I do not want him knowing he can say no because he is so big! If I give a command, he HAS to do it. It is not his choice to make. So yes, I am very careful not to ask anything if I can't enforce it, and leash on in the house most of the time so I can be sure I am able to enforce. Lots of praise when he does it right.


you really make your dog drag a leash around in the house most of the time? holy smokes! if you can't enforce a command with your voice you should start training again from square one IMO.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

How do you enforce a command with your voice? Fiona's trainer said the same thing about the leash in the house. He said never give a command you cannot enforce.

I am being serious about my question. I would like to be able to do that instead of a collar correction. I do the "AHHHH". Is that it?


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

Cheyanna said:


> How do you enforce a command with your voice? Fiona's trainer said the same thing about the leash in the house. He said never give a command you cannot enforce.
> 
> I am being serious about my question. I would like to be able to do that instead of a collar correction. I do the "AHHHH". Is that it?


you repeat the command again but add "no" infront and sound more serious/add some balls to your voice. like really shake the walls and lose the happy tone.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

All good advice! Thanks for the encouragement! 

I am being careful about what I ask and only ask once. I am being patient about his antics and remembering that some day we will be beyond this! If I give a command, I enforce it, but I try to be "diplomatic" about it.

I was having a private obedience lesson and when the trainer was working with him and showing me how to teach the finish on the right, she said to Simon, "It's a good thing your mother is committed to obedience." because Simon has his own ideas.... Later, while practicing the recall, he ran to toy box in the room and sat front and center and would not leave. When the trainer took out a toy to use as a reward for obedience commands, Simon was having none of it and would not leave the toy box. It was not the toy he wanted. So, finally, the trainer took the lid off again and Simon took out the toy he wanted so we could get on with it!!

Yes! Simon has a leash on in the house! He is incredibly precocious and everything goes in his mouth. I have to diligently watch him or crate him. He just chewed through an electrical cord.... not plugged in. I can't have my coats around as he goes through my pockets. He loves mouthing buttons, but doesn't pull them off. On his own, he brings me his metal food bowl when he thinks it is meal time and his kong when it is empty.

I tell him "Down" and he runs to the bedroom and "downs" on top of the bed with a laughing face. (I do not laugh.) I don't want to make him "collar shy" so having a leash on prevents that when I lead him off the bed to where I told him to down.

He is handler sensitive so being patient is the best policy. He is very devoted to me which makes "forgiving" him easier.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i don't really raise my voice anymore unless i catch one with their head in the trash or catbox but when ignored i definitely change my tone.

perfect example here FF to 1:16 and you see my tone change when ignored. dogs can sense your tone and will comply when you sound serious.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Scarfish--In other posts you have talked about this too. Saying "NO!" and then giving the command again. That is a good tip and I am going to practice it. It was nice to see the video example.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

Moriah said:


> Scarfish--In other posts you have talked about this too. Saying "NO!" and then giving the command again. That is a good tip and I am going to practice it. It was nice to see the video example.


i always add the NO when in non compliance. i didn't make that up, it comes from our trainer. he also says give 5 seconds before repeating the command while adding NO if the dog doesn't listen. and strengthen your tone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

An 11 month old puppy is still a puppy. A 7.5 month old puppy is still a puppy. Yes, they can learn basic commands, but having learned them does not make them 100% with them for the rest of their life. 

No 11 month old puppy is trained. Sorry. It just isn't so. They my have learned the basic commands, but they then need to be practiced. And they may go through stages where their training has plateaued. And they may go through stages where their training has back-slid. 

Sometimes they get bored with the same old routine, and start pushing their boundaries, or lose interest. For these dogs we need to change it up and keep them motivated. Do things 2 or 3 times and then move on to other things. Keep it fun for you and the dog. 

Sometimes they are distracted. Hormones can play a part or they might just be having a bad day. If I have dog that seems to be ignoring commands, I back up a few steps, put the dog back on lead, and give commands that I can enforce immediately, and no commands that the dog can choose to obey, or choose to make a game out of, or choose to ignore.

We teach our dogs way more than we intend to teach them. We teach them to ignore commands by giving the command multiple times hoping for compliance. Or we teach them to ignore commands by giving commands and not enforcing them. Or we teach them to ignore commands by giving commands and not giving them praise/feedback for doing what we want. 

Think about it. In real life, (not just when we are actively training), we tell the dog OFF or SIT, and the dog does it, and we keep on going. But when the dog is chewing something -- Eh! No! Not my shoe! When he is dragging you, jerk jerk "No Pull!" jerk, Eh! Heel! jerk. We tend to give lots of negative feedback, but when the puppy is doing what we want, we take it for granted, and rarely even notice it. 

We actually have to train ourselves how to give good signals to the dog, specifically signals that indicate to our dog what he is doing right. It is a feat for most humans because it is our nature to focus on negative behaviors. Yes, you can wait and catch a dog in a behavior you don't like and correct strongly. Or you can train a dog what he should chew on, where he should walk, etc, and prevent them from doing things that will cause injury to the dog, and damange to your stuff. There is nothing wrong with a correction, or telling a dog Eh! or No! But if that is a good portion of our communication with the dog, we need to re-evaluate our technique and look for ways to make it more fun and less punishing.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Moriah said:


> Scarfish--In other posts you have talked about this too. Saying "NO!" and then giving the command again. That is a good tip and I am going to practice it. It was nice to see the video example.



It is far better to train your dogs to respond to the first command and positively reward and reinforce. Dogs repeat behaviors that are reinforced and rewarded. It is a bad habit and a mistake to keep repeating commands. If a dog understands the "down" command for example, then you give the command the dog has two seconds to perform the command. If the dog understands the command and chooses to ignore you, that is disobedience. You can use a negative marker, such as "no" but you must immediately follow that with enforcement of the command. Repeating commands and adding in stern tones of voice only teaches the dog that it can ignore your first 2 or 3 commands. We call this "teaching the dog to count." 

It really comes down to consistency and everything in the dog's world should be black and white, there are no grey areas. If I give a command and my dog responds, then life is great and the praise and reward is always there. If my dog does not respond, in 1.5 seconds there will be a consequence. My dog is well trained and knows what is expected of him. I use little negatives or compulsion with my dog as he works for his reward and praise. He has learned from a pup that a fast correct response gets him a toy, treat or praise. 

Please, do not teach your dog that the command for sit is "sit, sit, sit, NOOO, I SAID SITTTTT." Same with down, here, come, leave it, drop it, or out. Life is so much easier for dogs and their owners when we give them clear signals and messages. Once trained and the dog understands the sit or down command, the command is simply "sit." This goes for puppies and dogs. 

Dragging the leash around the house, as suggested earlier is a very good idea and a smart approach.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> It is far better to train your dogs to respond to the first command and positively reward and reinforce. Dogs repeat behaviors that are reinforced and rewarded. It is a bad habit and a mistake to keep repeating commands. If a dog understands the "down" command for example, then you give the command the dog has two seconds to perform the command. If the dog understands the command and chooses to ignore you, that is disobedience. You can use a negative marker, such as "no" but you must immediately follow that with enforcement of the command. Repeating commands and adding in stern tones of voice only teaches the dog that it can ignore your first 2 or 3 commands. We call this "teaching the dog to count."
> 
> It really comes down to consistency and everything in the dog's world should be black and white, there are no grey areas. If I give a command and my dog responds, then life is great and the praise and reward is always there. If my dog does not respond, in 1.5 seconds there will be a consequence. My dog is well trained and knows what is expected of him. I use little negatives or compulsion with my dog as he works for his reward and praise. He has learned from a pup that a fast correct response gets him a toy, treat or praise.
> 
> ...


so you're a tree hugger no correction trainer? well that's not what GSDs respond to best. let me guess, you don't use prongs or Ecollars. don't go around to tell people to please not follow my advice. if you like your hippy ways keep them. if you want to share your hippy ways, fine. if you want to tell people please ignore me than you can go pack a lunch. i do things the way my trainer teaches. he has a very successful business training military and law enforcement K9s. i'm sure the military wouldn't give you 5 bucks for your dogs.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

obviously you train a dog to listen the first time. you expect them to follow the command the first time. all dogs will have a brain fart from time to time. my dogs don't need a praise to do a command. i don't need to run and get a treat everytime i want them to sit. there's nothing wrong with repeating the command again if they don't follow the first time. unless you want to run and grab a treat and have your dogs take you as a joke.


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

It's unfortunate that difference in opinions can cause such an outburst. Scarfish, you are being awfully defensive. Your ways are not the only ways in the world. To insist that your techniques are the only valid ones are absurd. What works for you may not work for everyone.

Personally, to me until a dog is 18 mos to 24 mos, they are still a puppy. Needing training regularly. Regularly, to reinforce and ingrain the teachings. Programming muscle memory if you will. In order to keep your dog from checking out on you, you need to keep it fun. Change it up. Don't become a robot. And yes Praise Praise Praise.

Personally, I get tired of NO!, Stop that! all the time. Teach them what you want, and the need for corrections lessen. My 2 cents.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

crickets said:


> It's unfortunate that difference in opinions can cause such an outburst. Scarfish, you are being awfully defensive. Your ways are not the only ways in the world. To insist that your techniques are the only valid ones are absurd. What works for you may not work for everyone.
> 
> Personally, to me until a dog is 18 mos to 24 mos, they are still a puppy. Needing training regularly. Regularly, to reinforce and ingrain the teachings. Programming muscle memory if you will. In order to keep your dog from checking out on you, you need to keep it fun. Change it up. Don't become a robot. And yes Praise Praise Praise.
> 
> Personally, I get tired of NO!, Stop that! all the time. Teach them what you want, and the need for corrections lessen. My 2 cents.


what's gotten into your head? i never said my ways are the only ways in the world. go back and show me where i said my ways are the only valid ones? hurry up, i'm waiting.

pesonally you won't get tired of saying no all the time if you train better. saying NO and repeating the command is for the occasional brain fart that all dogs have from time to time.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

and i wasn't getting defensive that someone else has a different method only that someone took time out of their life to beg to OP not to listen to me. they could've added their 2 cents without that. it was childish and rude.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

McWeagle said:


> Oh yeah, my 7.5 month old has really started doing this too. I can tell he's thinking, "La la la, I can't hear you! I don't want to so I can't hear you!" So frustrating!
> 
> I just make sure not to ask him to do anything unless I'm ready to enforce it. If I ask him to come and he doesn't, I get my butt off the couch, go get him, and bring him to where I was. (If he runs, then I run the other way to get him to chase me.) If he comes, no matter if he takes his sweet time, he gets praise. If he comes quickly, lots of praise and maybe a treat. Same with sits, downs, relax, don't chase the cat, etc. It's like it's back to puppy training!
> 
> ...


This is the PERFECT response!

I can't emphasise enough: NEVER GIVE A COMMAND THAT YOU CAN'T BACK UP!!!


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> It is far better to train your dogs to respond to the first command and positively reward and reinforce. Dogs repeat behaviors that are reinforced and rewarded. It is a bad habit and a mistake to keep repeating commands. If a dog understands the "down" command for example, then you give the command the dog has two seconds to perform the command. If the dog understands the command and chooses to ignore you, that is disobedience. You can use a negative marker, such as "no" but you must immediately follow that with enforcement of the command. Repeating commands and adding in stern tones of voice only teaches the dog that it can ignore your first 2 or 3 commands. We call this "teaching the dog to count."
> 
> It really comes down to consistency and everything in the dog's world should be black and white, there are no grey areas. If I give a command and my dog responds, then life is great and the praise and reward is always there. If my dog does not respond, in 1.5 seconds there will be a consequence. My dog is well trained and knows what is expected of him. I use little negatives or compulsion with my dog as he works for his reward and praise. He has learned from a pup that a fast correct response gets him a toy, treat or praise.
> 
> ...


I agree. I give the command once, if the dog disobeys, I don't change my tone or add "no" and repeat. I correct the dog immediately after the dog disobeys and add "no" as I correct. This way, the dog does not gain anything from disobeying and does not think that they only need to listen when I repeat with a "no". Just my opinion. It works for me.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Well, isn't saying "No!" a correction? I do a lot of clicker training and my trainer is a behaviorist....just asking. I have been saying the command only once. I have seen a rottie being trained with lots of praise and rewards, and his handler does say No! The rottie is handler sensitive and she only corrects with her voice.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Moriah said:


> Well, isn't saying "No!" a correction? I do a lot of clicker training and my trainer is a behaviorist....just asking. I have been saying the command only once. I have seen a rottie being trained with lots of praise and rewards, and his handler does say No! The rottie is handler sensitive and she only corrects with her voice.


Yes - I think it depends on the dog. Is saying "no" enough of a correction for the dog to not disobey next time or does the dog wait until they hear "no" and think, ok now I need to comply? I would rather have an understanding with the dog that they have 1 chance to obey my command and then there is a correction hard enough to persuade the dog to comply on my first command next time I give it. I think most dogs will eventually comply with repeating commands and "no"'s, but getting the dog to obey on first and only command is my goal.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

At 8 months (on Thursday! WOW!!:wub Leo has definitely given us the puppy equivalent to the finger! Both of our trainers say command once (and not to use "no", but to tell his what we want him to do) and praise behavior done well. But, we have had additional eyes looking at his behavior and like many have said on the board, "he is a puppy enjoying being a puppy!"  and he will show his "puppyness" occassionally. Work in progrss. One thing that I work on (and many can attest that I haven't in the past) is *not* taking the misbehavior (nipping, ignoring etc) so *personally*. <--This is difficult for me but I am working on it and low and behold, he reacts differently when I am more calm, balanced, fair and assertive. He is doing a "reboot" week in collaboration with our trainer and new beh. trainer (both positive reinforcement, both the way _we_ want to go) in which he is re-focused on basic training and then will be re-integrated into our house with Shane (13+ year old GSD) with our training on hand. Since his eval. last week we have implemented just a few of the training tips and have seen a change already (no nipping and less mouthiness). We are excited!


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## canada.k9 (Jan 7, 2015)

Well, you seem to have gotten a lot of advice already! 
I am not going to blow off anyone elses advice or training, but just give you my own experience.

Phoenix went through this MAJORLY, and we corrected it, with an E collar (I am not sure if you are wanting to use it? And that's fine!)
I personally don't think JUST using treats and no reinforcement is a bad mistake for this breed; As if the dog sees, you do not have a treat, they often shrug off the command, knowing you wouldn't reinforce it or reward it the way they are used to.

I usually give the dog 1 chance (with the E collar) to do as I say, use the warning button and immediately after I say the command again. Still no reply, I get him/her a zap, then repeat command.

Without the collar, I do the same, but after asking the second time, I go get the dog and make her do as I said.

As mentioned, I don't think its wise to repeat the command over, and over, and over again, as a word said too many times too often, becomes meaningless, and just a sound.

Don't give a command without being able to reinforce it! Best of luck!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

scarfish said:


> so you're a tree hugger no correction trainer? well that's not what GSDs respond to best. let me guess, you don't use prongs or Ecollars. don't go around to tell people to please not follow my advice. if you like your hippy ways keep them. if you want to share your hippy ways, fine. if you want to tell people please ignore me than you can go pack a lunch. i do things the way my trainer teaches. he has a very successful business training military and law enforcement K9s. i'm sure the military wouldn't give you 5 bucks for your dogs.


Ha!!! Thanks for the laugh. I think you need to pay more attention to what your trainer is telling you do. I can assure you that I am far from a hippy and yes I use a prong and an E collar every day. Corrections are a necessary part of dog training, but not the only part. I'm sorry, if your offended that I disagree with the advice to raise your voice to shake the walls and repeat commands. 

I'm guessing your from NJ????


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Ahhh, too funny….I see you actually are from NJ! ROTFL 

I knew it! LOL


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

I think if something works for you and pup--go with it! It took us almost 6 months to find a compatibly suitable method of training for Leo *and* for us.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Ha!!! Thanks for the laugh. I think you need to pay more attention to what your trainer is telling you do. I can assure you that I am far from a hippy and yes I use a prong and an E collar every day. Corrections are a necessary part of dog training, but not the only part. I'm sorry, if your offended that I disagree with the advice to raise your voice to shake the walls and repeat commands.
> 
> I'm guessing your from NJ????


It's not worth the effort to argue with this one.

I second your disagreement with raising your voice and repeating commands. There are much better ways to get a dog's attention. It may also start with the dog's engagement with the handler, poorly chosen/improper delivery of reward systems just as an example. I'd start with reducing the distractions and build from there. 

Corrections start rolling out when you've double checked your engagement. Then you know the dog is ignoring commands.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think with young dogs, we forget that they are still very young. We've spent the first 6 plus months of their lives building their confidence. They don't blow us off because we are the center of their world. We reward behaviors we want. 

And then we create the perfect storm. 

We've decided they know 100% every thing we've taught them, therefore we stop praising/treating every time they provide a behavior we've asked for. After all, they know 'Sit', they've done it a gazillion times. They should do it now, because we've asked for it. 

At the same time, they are now exploring their world with more confidence. They are becoming individuals, self thinkers. 

We tell them for a 90th time that day to 'sit'. They are now thinking for themselves. Why should they? It doesn't make sense. They get nothing in return. They'd rather explore, play, ignore. 

So - what do we do? We punish them! How dare they think for themselves! How dare they show confidence! They should sit just because we've asked them to for the 90th time with out any reward...because...well, we are the leader!

What would happen if we continued to praise for wanted behavior. Maybe just a "good boy" and a pat on the head. Maybe a simple "Thank you" to let them know we appreciate compliance. Maybe keep treats in our pockets and randomly provide a treat for compliance. They don't need to know the when, just the fact that you are still the center of their world that holds everything good.


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

What Lilie said.


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

I agree with Lilie that keeping up with the praise and occasional treat is a good idea. But our nearly 8 month old (8 mos next Monday) is such a butthead right now! 

I knew that this phase was coming, and I DID keep praising and sometimes treating for even the easiest command, only saying things once and then enforcing, thinking that might help during the butthead phase. I know I wasn't 100%, but I was close. And he's STILL a complete butthead! 

Our older dog wasn't this bad, and her butthead phase was pretty short. Lol, I love the little guy, but I really want to strangle him lately, too! I'm glad he has the confidence to think for himself but I really hope this phase doesn't last long with him... He's lucky he's charming and cute!


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Once a dog knows a command. Sit for instance. As in you have done it repetitively 100's of times. They know the word and its meaning. 

If they do not obey the command it could be many things including:
1.) That they may simply not have heard you, or you could have been using a tone that did not sound anything similar to the normal tone you use for the word. 
2.) Something may simply be distracting them.
3.) Similar to 2, they may be blowing you off because there is something more important than doing a sit or whatever else command you are doing, such as sniffing the ground, listening to the people walking by, etc.

Zelda is queen of her way or the highway. And when she does a command and she would rather be doing something else, she will vocally let me know about how she feels on following through with the command.

I guess that is why i like the e-collar training style i did with her. Is the command is really only given once, and that is when the tapping starts, it doesn't end till the command has been followed through with. And it doesnt hurt her. But its an annoying tapping that doesnt go away until she has done the command. Its so crisp and clear of what i want, and how she needs to do it. It has saved us the trouble of her deciding if she feels like doing it or not. That being said; treats, praise, toys and fun are always involved in compliance! Especially immediate. I can be excited that she followed through and have mini parties!  
It really is the only way you can truly make sure your commands are followed through off leash. Voice, treats, toys, etc. may not be as good as an incentive for them with the unknown distraction coming up around the corner. 

You also have to consider a few things.. 
What is your relationship like with your dog? (If you are not close, and do not have an understanding of each other, body language, vocal meaning, training sessions,etc. Maybe you need to spend more time..) 
What is their personality like? (for instance i know some dogs who listen to their owners every whim and those owners spend maybe a hour or less a day sitting around with that dog, AKA put little to no effort into their relationship, its just the way the dog is.. Where as other dogs.. Like me, put in hours and hours of training, exercise, time, dedication into their dog- and their personality is just different than that of the first and will basically be more stubborn.)
Maybe your training style is wrong with that dog? There are lots of different, perfectly humane training styles, all consider different aspects of dog training. Maybe you havent found the right fit, and its just not clicking. 

Just some of my thoughts 
Good luck! 
Yours is still a baby, lots of time to work on things!


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

We have a good relationship, good bond. We work together probably about an hour a day, interacting/playing/training, and then just hang out the rest of the evening. I know that he knows his stuff. I don't think I'm expecting too much from him, or expecting him to know things he hasn't learned yet. He's just feeling his oats and testing the limits, seeing what he can get away with (and he's finding out he can't get away with much! ). When we're actively training, he's bang on and learns new things in a snap. It's just when we're hanging out that he blows us off. It'll be fine, it's just frustrating in the moment!


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

My boy was a rescue and so I never had him as a little puppy. Maybe that makes a difference, I don't know, but although Newlie is a very sweet dog, his is big and can be hard-headed.I give him lots of praise and treats but I also expect him to follow my commands regardless. And most of the time he does because he loves me and because I insist by the tone of my voice, (I try to use a deeper voice when being stern) by walking towards him, spreading my shoulders to appear bigger and towering over him, with my 5'2 inches. I am not strong and Newlie is, but I have had good luck with using both the prong and the e-collar to stop unwanted behaviors that I could not correct otherwise. I think it is kind of like with children, some dogs respond better to some things and some dogs to others.

One of the things that Newlie would do occasionally that would drive me crazy is he would look at me when I gave a command, so I knew he heard me and it was a command he was familiar with, but he would pause and you could actually see the wheels turning in his head. " Mom wants me to come, but actually I really don't feel like it right now, maybe later." After using the e-collar like 3 times, he comes running every time I call him now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It gets harder and harder to be coherent on these threads, because training dogs has become second nature at this point. I see people advocating things I have done in the past, and it is hard not to point it out, saying, "don't do this." When your experience makes you confident, then the dogs read that like a book. You can play them like a violin. And the world is in harmony. 

You do not have to hack out lots of No's or Eh's. You do not need gadgets like prong collars or e-collars to do the simple things with a new pup, or a dog that has come to you as an adult. And, you do not need to stuff their mouth with treats all the time either. Treats load the clicker. The clicker marks behavior, and treats can be phased out. Substitute your voice for the clicker and you got it. You can use your voice instead of a clicker and use treats in the beginning to load the voice-praise as very positive. That marks good behavior, and treats can be phased out. 

I do not carry a carpenter's apron with treats, higher value treats, clicker, e-collar remote, toy, tug, and so on and so forth. generally my dogs do not wear collars, and everything is voice-activated, voice-reinforced. 

I don't use prong collars or e-collars, so I guess that makes me a tree-hugging hippee. So be it. Don't need them. 

Anyone can cow a dog. If you can't do it with leash corrections, get a bigger stick. Why not a ball bat. You can cow a dog. You are a human, you have the thumbs. You have the food and the necessaries of life, and dogs aren't completely stupid. 

The thing is, dogs are smart. And we value the intelligence of herding breeds. Intelligence is a funny thing. It doesn't correlate with obedience. Certainly, an intelligent dog _can _be obedient. It certainly is sweet when you have one that is very intelligent, and naturally obedient. But oftentimes it is the smarter ones that are more distracted, more likely to follow their own beat, more likely to find things they oughtn't do. They are using their brains. 

If our dogs are intelligent, they should be easy to train. Yes, but. 

If our dogs are intelligent, we should be able to get them to do what we want them to without using brute force. If we are intelligent, we can figure out how to motivate them. Doesn't have to be food. Probably shouldn't be food, not forever. 

I like what someone said about not taking it personally when a pup doesn't do what we want them to, when they do the wrong thing. When our expectations for our dogs' behavior matches their maturity and level of training, their trust in us and desire to do what we want them to do, they generally do pretty darn good. When our expectations are out of wack, we can make things so much more difficult for the dogs and ourselves.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I still say that just as you cannot use a cookie-cutter approach with children, you cannot with dogs either. What will work with one may not work with another. I don't quarrel with anyone who uses positive reinforcement, I do myself. But as Newlie's trainer told me, actions have consequences for dogs just as they have for people. If I tell him to come, and he makes the choice not to, then yes, I will tap the button on the e-collar. If I am trying to teach him a funny trick and he is not in the mood, that is a different story. Some decisions could possibly mean the difference between life and death for him and those are the ones I won't negotiate. I love him too much for that. More power to you, Selzer, if you can get your dogs to do whatever you want with just your voice. There are those of us who will use every tool in our arsenal, but we are just as committed to their well-being. And after all, who is to say that if you had my dog and I had yours, we wouldn't be on opposite sides of this conversation.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

newlie said:


> I still say that just as you cannot use a cookie-cutter approach with children, you cannot with dogs either. What will work with one may not work with another. I don't quarrel with anyone who uses positive reinforcement, I do myself. But as Newlie's trainer told me, actions have consequences for dogs just as they have for people. If I tell him to come, and he makes the choice not to, then yes, I will tap the button on the e-collar. If I am trying to teach him a funny trick and he is not in the mood, that is a different story. Some decisions could possibly mean the difference between life and death for him and those are the ones I won't negotiate. I love him too much for that. More power to you, Selzer, if you can get your dogs to do whatever you want with just your voice. There are those of us who will use every tool in our arsenal, but we are just as committed to their well-being. And after all, who is to say that if you had my dog and I had yours, we wouldn't be on opposite sides of this conversation.


See, I see it as different from you. I see the COME command as something I want the dog to do every single time, no matter what. To me, that command cannot be associated with punishment. Sorry. I don't give that command to puppies unless I am relatively certain it will be obeyed, AND, I can enforce it immediately. The problem with people who think people who don't use training collars are purely positive (whatever that is) is that training without gadgets does not mean permissive. Sorry. We give the command one time, and then we help the dog if it does not comply. It is not punishment, it is called following through. We do not repeat commands -- that teaches the dog to ignore us until we reach the right pitch and moment. We give a command that must be obeyed and then we ensure that it is. Follow through. No punishment. 

And after it is obeyed (even with help), praise. 

Now if my dog thinks that coming to me or not coming to me is going to get him zapped, will he come if the collar isn't on him, and he knows it, and he knows he is outside, off lead, out of the fence, without a collar on. My dogs (all of them) will come every single time -- no collars. Will punishment give you that confidence?

To my dogs, I am the greatest thing since chopped liver. Dogs are pretty cool. They can get to that point even if the owner uses a lot of compulsion and punishment. And so, it lives on. But to suggest that my training works less because of a lack of consequences (in this case punishment) is flat out wrong.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Actually, I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with your methods. If what you do works for you, then great. I am actually just defending myself against your criticism. I don't see the appropriate (notice I said appropriate)use of an e-collar as "punishment." Newlie's collar is on a low setting and it is actually more of an irritating buzz than painful. I know this because I tried it on myself. I, too, only give a command once and expect it to be obeyed every time. I, too, follow through to make sure that it is and give him a great deal of praise for any good choice he makes.

After nearly two years of working with Newlie on consistent recall and heeling without marked success, he is now doing both after only 3 taps of a button. I haven't had to use the e-collar much, but I stand ready to so if needed. I wouldn't do change anything I have done.

Again, as I have said, different approaches work for different dogs. Sometimes, you just have to agree to disagree.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i went to sleep yesterday so never finished. there is nothing worong with giving a dog a correction for disobeying a command. i'm not taking about correcting for disobeying a command you're still teaching. something the dog knows and has done 1000s of times. 

if anyone even bothered to watch my video you see julie clearly testing me and acting like a punk. i even gave her the benefit of the doubt and repeated the command again and used her name incase she was distracted. she did a half down and basically said screw you to me. we didn't waste all the time and money taking her to weekly training classes for the last year and a half for her to act like a punk. she has to listen if i have treats or not. all i did was add the word NO before repeating the command to let her know she was in the wrong. if she was wearing a prong i would've given it a pop while repeating the command or a nik if she was wearing her Ecolar. she had nothing so i said NO verbally.

i don't care if someone disagrees with me and wants to tell the OP a different method but don't tell the OP to please don't listen to me 'cause you do things different.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

newlie said:


> Actually, I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with your methods. If what you do works for you, then great. I am actually just defending myself against your criticism. I don't see the appropriate (notice I said appropriate)use of an e-collar as "punishment." Newlie's collar is on a low setting and it is actually more of an irritating buzz than painful. I know this because I tried it on myself. I, too, only give a command once and expect it to be obeyed every time. I, too, follow through to make sure that it is and give him a great deal of praise for any good choice he makes.
> 
> After nearly two years of working with Newlie on consistent recall and heeling without marked success, he is now doing both after only 3 taps of a button. I haven't had to use the e-collar much, but I stand ready to so if needed. I wouldn't do change anything I have done.
> 
> Again, as I have said, different approaches work for different dogs. Sometimes, *you just have to agree to disagree*.


 Actually, I don't, you can, but you can't force me to. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine when people say You Have to agree to disagree, or We have to agree to disagree. A better way to put that is, "Can we agree to disagree?" Then we both maintain our position and we can move on. But when one person says it, it just gets under my skin. 

The way the e-collar was used in the example I read on this thread was punishment for not complying with a command. Punishment does not have to be abusive or injurious. It is usually physical and clearly negative. It is not always wrong. I would rather a dog want to come to me because it is always a good thing, than a dog afraid not to come to me because that might be bad. When dogs make choices, they can choose to come or not -- the squirrel is more exciting than whatever Susie wants me to do. They can also make choices when punishment is involved -- I'm going to get zapped but the squirrel is more exciting than a zap. Of course they do the canine equivalent of this, but it is clear that dogs will go through e-fences if the stakes are high enough, why not the collar? I think that when you rely on physical corrections of any type to ensure safety/obedience, chances are you are going to have to up the ante at some point. Because dogs can take a lot of discomfort, a little nudge or nick is just annoying. So, we got to up it when they get used to that, we build up their tolerance to physical corrections/punishment. Again, I prefer to set a dog up to succeed and praise them for it, than to set the up to fail and clobber them for it.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Whatever. I have have tried my best to find a neutral ground but it doesn't seem like that is going to happen. You haven't changed my mind and I haven't tried to change yours so left's just leave it at that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Have you? Truly? LOL, sorry, but neutral ground in your opinion would be for me to agree that some dogs need an e-collar to get a reliable recall, and I don't believe that at all. I think some dog-handler teams will require it, mostly because human nature dictates that my problems are worse than ordinary problems and need more oomph to solve them. 

This is a couple of threads melting into one, but I was thinking why in years past people didn't seem to have that much trouble managing dogs. Have dogs become so unpredictable, aggressive, neurotic, etc.? Or have people just lost their ability to train and manage them? This seems across the board -- lots of people have mega issues with dog behavior. It's unsettling. It is not for lack of trying, people spend more than ever on training, training books, training videos, training equipment. I used to think people were trying too hard, and that was the problem. 

But something someone else said in another thread -- she is not taking misbehavior so personally. I think that this is really an issue. Sure, sure we aren't dressing our GSDs up and giving them their own room with bed, dresser and wardrobe (I am seriously hoping here). But we do anthropomorphize them. 

It isn't always cut and dried. "Oooh, look at my little fur-baby, see how he loves his momma! Here don't go near his stroller with that huge dog you have!" Of course we aren't doing this. But we do have sets of expectations for them, and sometimes these are unrealistic for the dog's age and training experience. If we compound that by taking various failures personally, we come up with this attitude -- don't want to, don't have to, which is, a process of thought that I really don't think is canine at all. 

GSDs make great seeing-eye dogs because they think, and they can, in some instances, use disobedience to keep the handler safe. They are intelligent. But, do they think, "you and who's army is going to make me?" No way. I think like when we see the guilty look dogs make when something is torn up, we totally misdiagnose what the dog is doing and why. 

Dog is following the scent of a squirrel. It is in his breeding, instinct, nature to do this, and he may be doing this tuning all else out. "Fido, Come!" Did he hear you? NOW!!! 

The dog looks at you, and sits down. 

Why, because last week when he wasn't sitting right away in class, you added that NOW! disclaimer and then pushed his butt into a sitting position. NOW! means butt on ground, cool, got it. 

Or, maybe his canine brain wants you to realize that there is an intruder in the tree, "but, it's up there, a squirrel, I can get him for you..." I have taken dogs people have claimed to be hard and stubborn, and found them to be soft, but biddable. My answer to that is the dog was actually shutting down, afraid to do the wrong thing, so doing nothing, which was misdiagnosed as stubbornness or defiance. And my favorite puppy term, "defiant." Puppies are not defiant. They are puppies. They do not blow you off. People feel that way, because they are interpreting their dogs actions or inaction in the context of human experience and not canine experience. 

The human condition will make readers pshaw, and become defensive, "you do not believe I know my own dog!" Well, frankly, no. I don't believe it, because I don't know you, and I have seen too many people totally misread their dogs utterly and completely. 

I don't think our honest, simple companions have changed. Not that much. It is we, who have elevated their status, from back-yard guard dog to fur-baby, with doggy parks, and doggy day care, doggy soda fountains, doggy salons, doggy spas, and so on and so forth, that have changed in our expectations for dogs. 

As we get more experience with these magnificent creatures, some of us will cross the line into shaping our expectations for the dog and taking it personally if the dog doesn't figure it out right away.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

selzer said:


> The way the e-collar was used in the example I read on this thread was punishment for not complying with a command. Punishment does not have to be abusive or injurious. It is usually physical and clearly negative. It is not always wrong. I would rather a dog want to come to me because it is always a good thing, than a dog afraid not to come to me because that might be bad. When dogs make choices, they can choose to come or not


you make some good points but i disagree with your and many people's misconception of Ecollars and prong collars. i don't see giving a correction as punishment. a time out is a punishment. Ecollars and prong collars when used correctly are not at all abusive or injurious. it's just a tool to refocus the dog's attention back to you when they are having a brain fart. the same way cesar milan does the little kick to the dog's rear when the dog is about to go into whatever negative state of mind cesar is trying to avoid. i certainly don't think people who use Ecollars and prong correctly are teaching their dogs to only follow commands in order to avoid punishment.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

selzer said:


> Have you? Truly? LOL, sorry, but neutral ground in your opinion would be for me to agree that some dogs need an e-collar to get a reliable recall, and I don't believe that at all. I think some dog-handler teams will require it, mostly because human nature dictates that my problems are worse than ordinary problems and need more oomph to solve them.
> 
> *This is a couple of threads melting into one, but I was thinking why in years past people didn't seem to have that much trouble managing dogs. Have dogs become so unpredictable, aggressive, neurotic, etc.? Or have people just lost their ability to train and manage them? This seems across the board -- lots of people have mega issues with dog behavior. It's unsettling. It is not for lack of trying, people spend more than ever on training, training books, training videos, training equipment. I used to think people were trying too hard, and that was the problem. *
> 
> ...


Selzer,

This is probably one of the best posts I've read on here in a long time. There are many times I start the read a thread, shake my head, and close the thread and move on. 

I have bolded parts of your post that really resonate with me, and I must say, it's very refreshing to read some solid words of experience and wisdom. There are days when I skim through some of these threads that I wonder if I'm the only person that treats my dog LIKE A DOG, and not an extension of myself, or a child with fur and four legs. 

I'm not going to comment on anything else about this whole thread, but I would definitely hope that newbies to the breed or dogs in general, read your post and take the obvious widsom and experience you have made the effort to write down.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. I learned a lot.


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