# How to teach a dog how to read other dogs?



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I normally have a very peaceful pack but I've had two multi dog fights, more like loud arguing, no blood drawn or any injuries in he last two days. Both of them instigated by Batman. My observation is that he can't tell when another dog is playing or has had enough and keeps pushing it. Along with that he does not take correction from other dogs without pushing it some more. Now about the two arguments...

Argument 1(Yesterday)
Batman tries to take Misty(senior females toy), she corrects him but he tries again instantly, during the correction one of them snapped at the other(it could have been either) and it escalates. Now Robyn(female Gsd) joins in and has Misty by her hood on her sweater shaking her away from Batman, now enters Midnite(male Gsd) going for Batman. So what started as one fight became really 3. Everyone resumed back to normal almost immediately. It almost seems like the two GSDs were breaking up the fight but caused me to almost have an heart attack. 

Argument 2(Today)
Everyone is out in the yard and playing nice and Batman wants Midnites ball. Midnite is not one to give up his ball, he is everywhere with his ball. He corrects Batman and Batman goes back at him. They are loud and going at it and here comes Robyn who goes for Midnite. In the midst of grabbing Robyn I see Misty coming ready to set everyone straight. Again everyone backed off, no blood drawn, no injuries and everyone is buddy buddy again. 

My observation is that Robyn seems to go to any means to break up a fight, she doesn't start them but she does get involved. Midnite won't put up with Batman and has given him several free passes. Both of these dogs can do serious damage and don't, which I want to keep that way. 

How do I teach Batman to understand when they don't want to play or that they are getting aggravated with him? How does a dog learn this? All of mine know the difference except for him. Is it a natural kind of thing? How do you train them to understand? Especially when they don't understand a correction? Batman can't read me either, he does not realize when I'm angry at him at all. He is a wonderful dog in every way. They all get along really well and I don't want that ruined. I have taken away all toys inside the house to see if that helps.

Any ideas or exercises I can do with him to make him understand? I'm willing to try any ideas anyone might have. I don't expect the dogs not to bicker every now and then, after all they are dogs, but I want to give Batman the best shot I can to be the whole dog I think he is .


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Following.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

What kind if dog is Batman? When you say he doesn't understand corrections from you, what does. that mean? 

Sorry if all this has been discussed on the board before. I have a hard time remembering what's what and who's who.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> What kind if dog is Batman? When you say he doesn't understand corrections from you, what does. that mean?
> 
> Sorry if all this has been discussed on the board before. I have a hard time remembering what's what and who's who.


Background on Batman...
He was born on the streets of Beirut, Lebanon, brought into rescue there when he was probably about 7-8 months, then brought here. I fostered him, my dad adopted him, my dad couldn't handle his energy, I took him back as my own. He will be two in January and is a greyhound/husky mix. 

My first thought is this is how he had to survive on the streets and doesn't know any different. I don't get angry at him often. Reading me might strictly being a training thing. He is a master thief of food, no matter where it is, I believe another survival technique. When I correct him for bothering the dogs he stops but goes right back at it would be one example that I can think of when I say he can't read me. I clearly am not playing when I tell him no but he seems to not understand that at all.


After a year he has gotten worse in his crate, he absolutely hates it and flips it continually. He prefers to be out with us. He cuddles with me and the other dogs. I have done sit on the dog with him and have had him leashed with me, that worked for his energy. He is a pretty calm dog in the house.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Or he's just a sled dog/ancient breed and sighthound mix! Yeeps! Flyball?  

First thing I would do is no toys or possessions when Batman is out. I don't care that it is an inconvenience to the other dogs, tough. I want peace. 

I have 2 males who sometimes have problems - one is like Lenny from Mice and Men, the other is...super fast, has 15 signals in so little time that the other dog can't follow them all. "Lenny" will do things unknowingly that are not to "Speedy's" liking. So I have worked with Speedy to look at me before acting in any way with Lenny. Outside when they run and play, Lenny knows to look at me when they play to make sure he's doing it to Speedy's specifications. 

These are two dogs who will never totally get the other - they are just so fundamentally different. So I interpret at all times for them, and no possessions, because that is when they really don't understand each other (Lenny lurks and looms, has no clue, Speedy totally feels threatened and reacts). 

So to do this, I was constantly guiding them with my voice while they were interacting. Yes, that's good, ah, ah, don't like that, and maybe I'd move in proximity wise and bump, move aside, etc. Then it got to the point where they'd look at me, and that's when I felt like we were on our way. Now they've looked at me enough to kind of get each other, but I will always be ready to interpret. 

(Lenny is my Mario, Speedy is Nico). Good luck!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm completely torn on taking Midnites ball. Having that ball in his mouth has probably stopped more then one fight. The ball means more to him then the argument. When Batman is really stressing Midnite out, you can hear Midnite squeezing the ball quite fast.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Then Batman plays in smaller groups until he's able to stay under threshold. Work on behaviors like the leave it A Scientific Approach Can Help You Solve Many Types of Possession Aggression, Part 2: Other Dogs | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS and reintroduce playing once you feel like he's listening to you.

Looking for another link...here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...gression-towards-scared-dogs.html#post5251706


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> .
> When I correct him for bothering the dogs he stops but goes right back at it would be one example that I can think of when I say he can't read me. I clearly am not playing when I tell him no but he seems to not understand that at all.
> 
> 
> .


Not that my approach will agree with your style of training ...as I believe you are a very positive only type trainer..I could be wrong with this assumption....but I believe you have somewhat answered your own question regarding why Batman disregards your corrections and continues on with his undesirable behavior.

I had somewhat the same situation with my dog and decided a while ago to step in and simply not allow my dog to bully other dogs which would come over and play in the backyard. After observing the interaction prior to making changes it became fairly apparent when the play would take a turn and then progress into a potentially undesirable situation. My gal has a hair trigger of sorts...but I learned to read her behavior and the subtle precursors and engaged her the moment I started to see the indicators. The problem I instantly discovered was...once certain dogs get into that frame of mind, a reprimand of a lesser magnitude is most likely not sufficient to change that particular dog's attitude or desire to comply with your wishes because the behavior you don't care for...commensurate with the correction given...is not equal to the dog's wiring to curtail the behavior. Whether it is learned behavior from the streets or other causal factors, there needs to be a reason for the dog to capitulate to your wishes which is stronger than the desire for the behavior the dog is exhibiting. Yes, I describe the obvious. I know what I did and I have found success with my methods. I will say, that I fight fire with fire sometimes..because when I see my dog being a bullying jackass, I bring some of her attitude to her plate but with a huge difference....I do not bully her into submission...maybe just a civil coexistence or that "enough" actually means enough because what follows is worse than a verbal reprimand if she didn't get the hint from "enough".

Anyway, I have learned much from your trials and tribulations regarding DA rooted in fear. My gal has benefited from taking your positive approach. I wish all corrections could follow the same approach.

Your words " I tell him no but he seems to not understand that at all." suggests to me..you need a firmer approach so he does "understand".

Best of luck in your progress and I would be very interested in hearing what takes place over time.


SuperG


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

One last thing - and a way that in years of working with people, I've never had to use a physical correction  the time to stop a behavior is before it happens. That is, if we are intervening, we are too late. Gotta catch up with these guys and they are fast.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Then Batman plays in smaller groups until he's able to stay under threshold. Work on behaviors like the leave it A Scientific Approach Can Help You Solve Many Types of Possession Aggression, Part 2: Other Dogs | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS and reintroduce playing once you feel like he's listening to you.
> 
> Looking for another link...here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...gression-towards-scared-dogs.html#post5251706


Smaller groups is what I was thinking too. Him and Robyn chase each other and run all over the place. They are both super fast and are great for each other, but I think I need him to be with a dog that won't bother with him at all. That way there is no over stimulation. That leaves one dog, my oldest golden. He doesn't pay any attention to him.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm not opposed to using any and all tools. All dogs are different and some require a more firm approach. I have to stop feeling sorry for him because of where he came from and teach him how to be civil. I would love to do that in a positive only way, but that is just not working. He has this tough outer shell but I've seen the softer side, I just need a break through. It might be nothing more then being stubborn. He is not on the street anymore, he doesn't have to worry about where his next meal is coming from or a nice comfy couch to crash. I just have to make him see it my way, which will be easier then Midnites. I give Midnite credit, he had been super patient with Batmans antics thus far. What about no free reign outside, on s leash to use the bathroom and back inside, I wonder if that will or can be a start to him understanding how this all works? No free play if he's going to start trouble, which he has no clue he is doing to begin with


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd like to see people manage a yard of 20 or so large strange (to each other and you) without ever using a physical correction.

A dog deciding to correct another dog shouldn't be allowed to happen. They should be physically corrected for any attempt to correct each other with aggression. When that is in place dogs should be taught to stop annoying dogs that don't appreciate whatever it was the offending dog is doing. That can be done with physical correction as well. 

Allowing dogs to fight or "argue" can build up into an escalating thing. That ill will conditions.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

We are going to start working on a much firmer leave it. He has a real strong recall, probably the best out of all the dogs, very on target and instant. I can use that to my benefit. I might take him swimming with Brennan to burn off some energy. He has slowed down but he still had some to burn.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm NOT one for believing let them work it out ... b/c let's face it, by the time 5 dogs work it out, there could only be two left. 

However, what if you try and let Batman work it out with JUST Misty? And no other dogs around to get involved? Maybe, (and it's a big maybe, and I'm guessing LOL) Misty might just give him the appropriate correction so that he really GETS it without have two or three other dogs jump into the fray. 

Or if not Misty, then one of your other dogs that knows how to correct properly? 

My first dog would give the perfect correction and the dogs always learned instantly from her. 

Kyleigh? LMAO I would never let her "amp" up a correction b/c she can be a b**ch if the dog doesn't get it the first time.

I'm not trying to advise a dog fight, I'm trying to suggest that if one of your dogs will correct properly, then it might be a viable option for you ... 

Good luck,

Marion


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kyleigh said:


> I'm NOT one for believing let them work it out ... b/c let's face it, by the time 5 dogs work it out, there could only be two left.
> 
> However, what if you try and let Batman work it out with JUST Misty? And no other dogs around to get involved? Maybe, (and it's a big maybe, and I'm guessing LOL) Misty might just give him the appropriate correction so that he really GETS it without have two or three other dogs jump into the fray.
> 
> ...


Oh Misty will correct him but he goes back at her and then all bets are off for poor Batman. She would flatten him. It would be close to the same with Robyn. The girls expect to be respected. Batman does not give them that respect. It's like he doesn't understand the hierarchy of the pack. Midnite has had it with him. My oldest golden might be the best shot and I still think that could turn into a fight. None of my dogs really start fights but they don't back down either. Any other two dogs in my house respect each other and the other dogs, just not Batman.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear that!!! It was about the only thing I could think of without having to constantly manage ... because you've had lots of info about that ... 

Yeah, you certainly don't need him getting the crap kicked out of him LOL

Good luck


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah retaliating dogs that get angry aren't the kind of dogs you can let "work things out"


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wouldn't consider any of my dogs aggressive. Batman just doesn't get the pack structure. It's almost like he thinks he is invincible. He goes over board in play, he really annoys some of the others. He gets it wrong often, he is playing and they aren't and vice versa. He is not on the same page as them at all. He does not attack out of the blue, but does retaliate.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Baillif said:


> I'd like to see people manage a yard of 20 or so large strange (to each other and you) without ever using a physical correction.


I'd like to see dogs and people not get set up for situations that neither are prepared to handle well. 

In this case, Batman will be able to practice behaviors in a less stressful situation for both person and dogs, and will get to learn new behaviors in a way he can, then can over time try them out in larger groups. I always start small with new dogs. 

Also, I know people hate to "stereotype" breeds, but sight hounds and ancient breeds are not anything like our dogs, and are not going to respond the same way, and ancient breeds often need a more cerebral approach. Take a look at the good about em/bad about em website for a cheat sheet of characteristics for the breeds. www.yourpurebredpuppy.com › Dog Breeds › Greyhound


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Also, I know people hate to "stereotype" breeds, but sight hounds and ancient breeds are not anything like our dogs, and are not going to respond the same way, and ancient breeds often need a more cerebral approach. Take a look at the good about em/bad about em website for a cheat sheet of characteristics for the breeds. Your Purebred Puppy, An Honest Guide to Purebred Dogs and Dog Breeds › Dog Breeds › Greyhound


Interesting read on both greyhound and huskies. He is definetly a thief. He is super fast. When he's outside and he smells something his nose is in the air, especially when he senses a coyote.



I really don't ever give physical corrections, I've never had the need to do so. It's very rare that there are any problems. I do think his movement drives both GSDs nuts. His movement is different then any dog I have seen. I don't think the fights were deliberate, the dogs don't go around attacking each other. They remind me of human siblings that bicker-that would be the best example I can think of(I know they aren't human)

I think that I'm bothered the most about his testing of my senior female. She has earned the respect of all of the dogs, none of them challenge her, except Batman.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

My GSD does exactly what you are describing with batman. In her situation she's just not "wired" right and this seems like an extension of that (for her). My other dogs are very good at warning multiple times before resorting to fighting. She will push them and push them, just doesn't read the signals at all and she gets her butt kicked. My way around this is I taught her she can only play around the others if she carries a toy. I always have multiples of the same toy. I tell her "where's your ball" to mean go find something to put in your mouth and you can't play until then. 

She also one time was playing with an Egge toy (too large to pick up) and I thought occupied, so I threw a ball for one of the Malinois. Next thing I know she is streaking across the yard like a bullet for the mal, grabbed his skin on his side, and ripped a big "C" shaped flap open. He didn't even notice and kept running after his ball :crazy::crazy:

So "occupied" now means she must have a toy which actually fits in her mouth.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> What about no free reign outside, on s leash to use the bathroom and back inside, I wonder if that will or can be a start to him understanding how this all works? No free play if he's going to start trouble, which he has no clue he is doing to begin with


This is somewhat where I started....my dog had free rein for all her activity in the backyard except when the dogs came over for a gathering. I allowed her full use of a 6 foot lead only upon her calming after the other dogs had arrived. This progressed to a 30 foot lead which progressed to her being off leash completely. Her interaction was kept in check with verbal cues, if she pushed it and disregarded, I used the leash and prong and took her out of the mix and put her on a down/stay. I'd let her reengage with more latitude and maneuvering room and she seemed to get what "enough" meant when instructed...saving me the use of any corrections via the leash and prong. The process took a few sessions and to date if a new dog shows up, I will have her on the 6 foot lead and prong to initiate the session. After that she is off leash and seems to get the "enough" command. However, I still monitor the group play very closely, paying attention for those subtle signals which I know indicate she is getting close to bringing her back to her bullying ways. I give her the verbal cue even as the other owners might say.." Oh, she's just fine..just playing...just a 2 year old full of herself and it is her backyard..blah blah blah...." But one thing I have learned from this forum is staying two steps ahead of your dog is really the way to go.

Now, in hindsight...I had serious reservations regarding the use of a leash around other unleashed dogs as I thought this might exacerbate the problem but tried it anyway....I promised myself to give her complete loose leash up until the point where any correction needed to be used...I believe I did okay but looked like a fool trailing behind my dog, twirling and all to keep the leash tangle free...even more of a task with the 30 foot lead..but it was doable. The other thought which I challenge in my method was the possibility that the particular collar or absence of might have had an effect on this process as well. I only use a prong for certain training situations and environments vs. the flat collar vs. no collar. I have this notion that when the prong is on my dog, she acts or treats the situation differently vs flat or no collar. So, I wonder if I might have been able to accomplish the same by simply putting the prong collar on my dog sans the lead and still accomplished the same behavioral changes.?? Could be...

SuperG


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I really think it's a combination of the dog learning naturally, but mainly YOU teaching them what's allowed and what's not. Having a large pack isn't easy, right now I'm at my parents for the Christmas holidays and it's 8 dogs in the house with everyone here. As a whole they will all get along but it's easiest to rotate and supervise in smaller groups. So the large dogs are one group and the smaller dogs are another, while everyone is around the dogs are all out. If we need a break or leave then the dogs are split into even smaller groups. 

For everyday I could see it being tiring, rotating is most likely your best bet for now. But every day working on a firm leave it and being quick and efficient in separating and correcting fights before they happen


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

How to teach a dog how to read other dogs?

How would this be accomplished > ? Teach your child or animal; "Street Smarts."

If anyone can answer this question with some degree of intelligence, I am open to hear it.. A canine can read a human, by training perhaps, subtle signs, but I think the thread title is more along the lines of instinct > ?


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

His behavior really reminds me of a husky. Finder would often pounce on and pester other dogs just to get them to chase him. He clearly had to know the pack rules in order to so flagrantly flout them to instigate the behavior in other dogs he wanted. He would intentionally break the rules to get whatever he wanted and only the pups that could outsmart him would win because unfortunately he was also quite fleet of foot. 

It's not really helpful in your situation, but I ended up curtailing which dogs Finder could play with. For us management proved more beneficial than trying to train for the thousand and one ways Finder could find to pester other pups.


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## crickets (Dec 19, 2014)

Maybe a two week shut down, then strict NILIF and tether for a while to help him learn the rules? Let him observe without being involved for a while? It's worth a shot for a little peace!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Kahrg4 said:


> His behavior really reminds me of a husky. Finder would often pounce on and pester other dogs just to get them to chase him. He clearly had to know the pack rules in order to so flagrantly flout them to instigate the behavior in other dogs he wanted. He would intentionally break the rules to get whatever he wanted and only the pups that could outsmart him would win because unfortunately he was also quite fleet of foot.
> 
> It's not really helpful in your situation, but I ended up curtailing which dogs Finder could play with. For us management proved more beneficial than trying to train for the thousand and one ways Finder could find to pester other pups.


This makes sense. He is rarely the one doing the chasing but spends lots of time getting chased. At first I thought this dog is weird why would he want to get chased? He seems to really enjoy it, but the only one that will go for it is Robyn. She can match his speed and they give each other a run for the money. I can see him literally egging them on. Maybe it would be easier to train the other dogs? If it's his breed, then it is what it is.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Considering his age, I'd be more inclined to say that he's ignoring the other dogs' signs instead of not understanding them. He's maturing and it sounds like he's pushing the other dogs around. I personally am not a fan of letting dogs work it out themselves; I would step up your management here. Don't let Batman annoy the other dogs, and don't allow the other dogs to step in and correct him. That might mean only letting him out with the other dogs on leash or in smaller groups while you work on training him.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

In my experience dogs who have spent 8 weeks with the litter as pups develop enough skills to understand dog language.
This dog sounds like mine, it's not that he can't read other dogs it's that he doesn't care. 
You can put him into time out once it gets to a point where he is pushing it. Over time he will realize what is going on.
Or you can wait until he meets a stronger dog who will put him in his place.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The DVD 'Calming Signals' was a HUGE help to have me be better able to read my dogs and then relate that to how they were reading and reacting to other dogs.

PLUS gave me tools to use to help and PREVENT situations because I now had some lead time BEFORE the fight was on!

http://www.mishamayfoundation.org/calming.pdf

You need to buy the DVD though cause she has TONS of examples to actually show what she's talking about. Not just the book you need the DVD to SEE.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well in the last couple days he has spent more time in the crate and I've spent more time observing and supervising. The night before last he was on the floor sleeping and Misty went to her spot on the couch and he jumped up and blocked her, then resumed laying on the floor once she walked away. So maybe it is a mixture of maturing and not caring. So now he is not allowed any physical contact with any of the dogs. He goes outside by himself and gets no playtime. In the house I tell him no when he attempts to play and I tell Robyn no when she attempts to correct him. It has worked out well so far. No arguments and they are understanding that everything comes from me. I also did some real basic short training sessions with Batman and some flirt pole with Robyn(she loves that flirt pole) the kids are over so I don't really see Midnite, he's with them the whole time. I see him when it's time to eat or he has to pee. Oh I will make everyone see things my way.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The DVD 'Calming Signals' was a HUGE help to have me be better able to read my dogs and then relate that to how they were reading and reacting to other dogs.
> 
> PLUS gave me tools to use to help and PREVENT situations because I now had some lead time BEFORE the fight was on!
> 
> ...


Interesting read.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You've a pack. Packs are alive. Just because the elderly samoyed mix is top dog now, doesn't mean that as she ages, gets sick, etc, it will stay that way. The youngster could be challenging the hierarchy because he may be naturally more dominant than the others or the ones he has picked fights with.

In any case, I tend to agree that I would not let dogs sort it out for themselves. I don't like to clean up bloody cuts, and it probably will escalate to that level if you do nothing. 

I don't like keeping one dog in a box for the majority of the time either. It is not the dog's fault that the landed in a home with a pack of dogs that was not prepared for a dog with his qualities. I guess, what I would do is set up some baby gates, and put dogs into groups, batman may be fine with two of the more submissive dogs, and toys and feeding might be done differently in this group to ensure that everyone gets their fair share and no one gets chewed up over a chewy. Chews and food can happen in crates. Balls brought out as a reward after an individual training session. Idiot dog might get crated while the other two are in the backyard being normal, playing with whatever. 

The rest of the dogs will be put in another section of the house, on the other side of the baby gate. They go out together, eat together, whatever, so long as no one is being idiots about it. 

And in the mean time, up the training and exercise with the dog that you perceive is creating the majority of the issues. Supervise him closely with the others, and when notice one of the others becoming annoyed, or when the behavior looks like it is probably annoying, then you bring the little nutter out of the situation and on the other side of the gate where he can move around and do stuff, but can't bother the others.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> You've a pack. Packs are alive. Just because the elderly samoyed mix is top dog now, doesn't mean that as she ages, gets sick, etc, it will stay that way. The youngster could be challenging the hierarchy because he may be naturally more dominant than the others or the ones he has picked fights with.
> 
> In any case, I tend to agree that I would not let dogs sort it out for themselves. I don't like to clean up bloody cuts, and it probably will escalate to that level if you do nothing.
> 
> ...


I agree with this but I don't see Batman as the top dog, that is Robyn. I would have to say she has slowly and surely taken over that spot. It's almost as if Misty has let her take over. Occasionally Misty takes the lead and everyone follows. The main thing with Batman is no manners. Robyn plays the best with him but I noticed that she is always watching him and I think that alone can be unnerving to him. So Robyn is not allowed to focus on him. She can play with him but not focus on him. I never thought about the dynamics changing within the pack because it's always been Misty and I hate calling her a senior the good thing is that Robyn completely obeys me and does what she is told, so I know I can make life easier for Batman. He is really a goofball that thinks everything is a game. I can see the confusion on his face sometimes. He isn't out to hurt anyone but he doesn't walk away either..

I plan on doing a lot more observing and supervising and correcting. I don't know if I'm being unrealistic expect 100% peace. We are st about 99% right now with an issue every now and then(like 3-4 arguments in 13 months)

I have also noticed with Batman that when he drinks to much water he vomits it all up. This has happened a few times, but recently I caught him vomitting. Do you think I have anything to look at medically with him. He is always hungry to. He maintains his weight and has tons of energy.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The DVD 'Calming Signals' was a HUGE help to have me be better able to read my dogs and then relate that to how they were reading and reacting to other dogs.
> 
> PLUS gave me tools to use to help and PREVENT situations because I now had some lead time BEFORE the fight was on!
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's interesting...I think I need to study up on this.

Thanks for the lead....


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not an expert on pack dynamics, particularly when most if not all are altered. 

I have a bunch of dogs, yes, mostly intact bitches. But they do not run around together 24/7 in perfect harmony with the world and every other bitch and dog. In fact, I prefer to allow only one or two dogs to run in the house together at any given time, save maybe a litter. The same is true outside. I might put some pups together that are all relatively young and let them play with supervision. But mostly, a litter stays together, until they go to their new homes, and everyone else is kenneled either alone or with one dog that they get along with. Generally. So singles or pairs can come into the house. And it is not a large pack with dogs determining who can sit where, and who owns the balls, and who owns access to me.

I know there are people out there that can manage packs of dogs without serious issues cropping up. But I think that is actually more the exception to the rule. And for most of us, as we add dogs to our small packs, sooner or later there will be conflicts, and we really aren't going to like the answer to those conflicts. This is why when someone with a stream of dogs below their name, like mine, is talking about bringing in another one, I generally am not all that encouraging. Sooner or later... 

The more experience we get with individual dogs, the more we can maybe tell which dogs suit each other, which are unlikely to fight with each other, which are likely to be a bully. Which are likely to incite riots, and which are likely to join in the fray. Dogs are dogs after all, and while we may like the idea of a dog coming in and protecting the small dog or kitty from the nasty big dog bully, that doesn't always happen. That is the stuff of Walt Disney. Sometimes the bully gets help, and then things can really be gruesome. You are left with two dogs that you really don't know what to do with, because they killed another of your pets, and it is hard not to think of them as some form of murderers, and hard to ever trust them again, even if that doesn't mean leaving them loose in a pack of dogs.

I spend time watching interactions between dogs and trying to get a feel for who they are naturally. Jenna is my natural leader. She does not pick fights. She will finish them if she is attacked (very rare -- most of the others just accept that she is the queen bee for now.) She just carries herself in such a manner that all the others just accept her. Or mostly. I have a bitch that I never considered being in the hunt for top bitch. An eight year old who is just an easy going, never gets into a tussle with anyone, and when Jenna was recovering from a back issue, I had brought Heidi home from the groomers, and one of the gates to the back room was open, and it was on. Jenna bad back and all gave her worse than she got, and that was with me grabbing Heidi's tail and pulling her out of that mess. But it was my fault. Jenna was down, and Heidi thought this was her chance to take over. Who knows. Maybe Jenna felt vulnerable and attacked preemptively. I should have been more careful. But now I am much more leery with Heidi too. Will they fight, will they not. If they do it is going to hurt. And separating adult GSD bitches isn't for everyone either. 

Oh and the ones that are the top dogs, they don't fight much. The ones that are wannabe top dogs are more likely to get in scraps. And dogs close in age or power. When it is well defined, it is easier. But your dog is maturing and maybe he thinks he wants to be a top dog. 





llombardo said:


> I agree with this but I don't see Batman as the top dog, that is Robyn. I would have to say she has slowly and surely taken over that spot. It's almost as if Misty has let her take over. Occasionally Misty takes the lead and everyone follows. The main thing with Batman is no manners. Robyn plays the best with him but I noticed that she is always watching him and I think that alone can be unnerving to him. So Robyn is not allowed to focus on him. She can play with him but not focus on him. I never thought about the dynamics changing within the pack because it's always been Misty and I hate calling her a senior the good thing is that Robyn completely obeys me and does what she is told, so I know I can make life easier for Batman. He is really a goofball that thinks everything is a game. I can see the confusion on his face sometimes. He isn't out to hurt anyone but he doesn't walk away either..
> 
> I plan on doing a lot more observing and supervising and correcting. I don't know if I'm being unrealistic expect 100% peace. We are st about 99% right now with an issue every now and then(like 3-4 arguments in 13 months)
> 
> I have also noticed with Batman that when he drinks to much water he vomits it all up. This has happened a few times, but recently I caught him vomitting. Do you think I have anything to look at medically with him. He is always hungry to. He maintains his weight and has tons of energy.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> The DVD 'Calming Signals' was a HUGE help to have me be better able to read my dogs and then relate that to how they were reading and reacting to other dogs.
> 
> PLUS gave me tools to use to help and PREVENT situations because I now had some lead time BEFORE the fight was on!
> 
> ...


Might be a stupid question....but since this part of a dog's "language" which contains calming signals is for communicating to other dogs...it mentioned in the beginning of the article that dogs display these same signals to humans..since it is the only language they know. So, since I am a slow study...these calming signals are an intent by the dog to keep a particular situation amongst other dogs ( unfamiliar ones mainly I assume ) calm and civil and show it comes in a unintimidating fashion ....assumption number one...correct me if I am wrong or elaborate possibly.

Number two...do you believe a dog would read similar calming signals if a human displayed them? I guess I ask this since a dog will display these signals to a human...or so the article mentioned.

SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The yawning experiment proves dogs can read calming signals(and other emotions!) 
Just ask my dog when we trial, he thinks he did something wrong because my face shows so much tension, even if I try hard to relax!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Lombardo, 

Seems to me that this boy missed some crucial information somewhere. His mom and litter mates killed or died. He is a survivor. But not so well versed in living within a structured pack. 

It's tough, because I know, from the get go, I enforce respect of other animals in my house. Cat hisses, dog moves away or gets a correction.... Another dog growls or tries to avoid annoying puppy, I redirect puppy and correct for not respecting the other dog. 

So with Batman, he just has never been taught to respect signals. At his age, you gotta be a bit tougher to teach it. And I think strong corrections, coupled with high praise would work. But it's gotta be done in small groups. I don't think social isolation is good at this point. But one on one with another dog. Batman on long line. If another dog moves away from him, lifts their lip, snips, snaps, growls... Batman gets a " leave it", a correction and then praise and treats when he disengages. 

But you can't " nag". You need to be fully behind the correction. It needs to mean something. If he ignores "no", then he has not learned correctly what the consequences of "no" are. "No" must have strong meaning behind it, or it's useless. May be best to use something different, like "eh"

Good Luck!!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Lombardo,
> 
> Seems to me that this boy missed some crucial information somewhere. His mom and litter mates killed or died. He is a survivor. But not so well versed in living within a structured pack.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think everything he does is based on survival. The streets of Beirut can't be pleasant for a street dog He still loves dogs, people, and kids. Just recently he has started wanting to cuddle. He didn't know what a ball was and was so proud when he learned how to catch. He has a strong recall and if he gets himself in trouble he usually comes right to me to help him. With strong supervision on my part plus making him feel safe should be what will work. He just seems like a lost soul. He has spent a lot of time with Brennan the last couple of days, getting energy out then relaxing in the house with all of them.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

""No" must have strong meaning behind it, or it's useless."....tis be the truth.

When "no" means no and the dog complies without hesitation....life is good.

When "no" means no and the dog doesn't comply...well, for some...life just became complicated.....


SuperG


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Update...
I started the retraining process and in doing so I have placed an e-collar on both Midnite and Batman to start. It's a very basic collar with tone and shock, I do not use the shock at all. If they are about to do something I beep it and verbally correct and I'll be darn, they walk the other way. We have had a peaceful household. No more rough playing or trying to take toys, peace and harmony. I have to make sure they understand the rules once the collar is off. As soon as they see the remote, they lay down. Robyn has been listening to leave it, so now she is minding her business, which I'm so thankful that she is pretty well trained, it makes it easier for me. 

How do I make sure they obey once the collar is off? I'm not sure how to do that, any ideas?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> How do I make sure they obey once the collar is off? I'm not sure how to do that, any ideas?



Appreciate the update....

And great question...I'd like to know as well even though I haven't ever used an e-collar ....yet.

SuperG


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Appreciate the update....
> 
> And great question...I'd like to know as well even though I haven't ever used an e-collar ....yet.
> 
> SuperG


I'm thinking it's going to be easier with Batman then Midnite. I can always carry the remote with me all the time, let them figure that one out


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

We are now looking into lure coursing(I almost purchased a set up for my yard) and Barn Hunts for Batman. I think he would enjoy and excel in either.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I personally would stop letting them all out together. You have way too many dogs to have them all out together and expect there to be peace, JMO.

I would allow 2 or 3 of them to play together at a time and I would make sure that there are no toys around for the dogs that get a little too possesive.

Honestly, I seriously can't believe that you, being *one* person, has enough time to dedicate to each individual dog. 

If a fight breaks out between all of your dogs, I can't see you being able to stop it by yourself.

Too risky, too many females, too many males, too many dogs for one person.

Sorry but I had to say it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

We've had zero issues since I last updated. I like to stop behaviors as soon as I see them start, I don't let them fester ever. I see the problem and I fix it immediately. Problems don't creep up ever-I stay on top of it. We are a pretty peaceful household. Now that it's winter time I will up the training on all. 

Am I busy? Yes I am. At this time of year I am running everyday, whether it's obedience for this one or that one, swimming, rally, and now lure coursing. 

I love it. They keep me busy and I feel great. 

Again.. I want to stress that I can't even count on one hand what I would consider issues amongst my dogs in 10 years. 

I'm pretty confident in my pack and I thought hey maybe I can get more ideas by posting a question on this forum. 

I can see why so many people just don't bother asking stuff or are afraid to. 

My question was how to teach Batman to read other dogs. A simple question in my mind.

I got some real good advice that I implemented and it worked well. I am thankful for those that actually had advice on how to handle it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's fantastic!Thanks for the update.Not enough folks repost on their progress and I for one am always eager to learn new problem solving techniques.


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