# Good example of Displaced Aggression



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

So we are at a park today with my 4yo male GSD and 3 other couples with their GSD's. This is a group that has been together doing socializing and training since our dogs were about 12 weeks old.

And there is a strange relationship among the three adult males. Baron (mine) hates Burns and has since almost puppyhood, but Baron and Dakota used to get along great till a year or so ago when Dakota decided that he didn't like Baron and will react to him. BUT, Baron ignores Dakota completely even when he growls at him! But Burns is scared to death of Baron and reacts often to him and stares at him a LOT.

So today in the park, Baron is laying next to Toula (female friendly to Baron but often shows DA to others) and Burns starts toward Baron (10' away), and stares at him and barks at him.

Baron reacts and starts toward him growling, I hold the leash and Baron bumps into Toula - Toula reacts and snaps at Baron and Baron is in an excited mood and reacts without even thinking about it and snaps at Toula. 

Unfortunately Baron is the most accurate biter I have seen and hasn't often missed when he snaps and he puts a small split in Toula's left ear.

AAACCCKKK! Not good as it eventually entailed a trip to the Emergency vet to get a couple of stitches put in.

And neither Baron or Toula showed any sign of aggression to each other at all afterward even when right next to each other. I assume that it was a case of misdirected aggression since Baron was up about Burns challenging him!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

codmaster said:


> So we are at a park today with my 4yo male GSD and 3 other couples with their GSD's. This is a group that has been together doing socializing and training since our dogs were about 12 weeks old.
> 
> And there is a strange relationship among the three adult males. Baron (mine) hates Burns and has since almost puppyhood, but Baron and Dakota used to get along great till a year or so ago when Dakota decided that he didn't like Baron and will react to him. BUT, Baron ignores Dakota completely even when he growls at him! But Burns is scared to death of Baron and reacts often to him and stares at him a LOT.
> 
> ...


Codmaster: I don't know what it was but I could hardly keep track of all the who does and doesn't like each other.

Under those circumstances I would leave my dog home so I could relax and enjoy the friendships.

Just too much going on for me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Codmaster: I don't know what it was but I could hardly keep track of all the who does and doesn't like each other.
> 
> Under those circumstances I would leave my dog home so I could relax and enjoy the friendships.
> 
> ...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It was a beautiful day in Calif. 

We took our 8mo. old to the park. There is a trail around the park that we walked her on. Lot's of people and dogs and she was great. Even totally ignored the grouchy BC we passed. 

We also had lunch at an outdoor area at In and Out. Crowded with cars, dogs and people coming and going and she was super.

Later we took Jack out seperately. He's easy. Our biggest problem is the two of them together. He tries to behave but she wants to play with him so much she starts ignoring her manners. Still working on that.

Glad you had a nice day.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If you guys know that the dogs don't get along with each other, why continuing to "socialize"... I don't get it...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> If you guys know that the dogs don't get along with each other, why continuing to "socialize"... I don't get it...


 
A very good question! And one that I sometimes ask myself! It is more of a training thing than socilization between these two - just a "co-existence" would be enough.

The main reason is that we are social friends with the other owners. 
Secondarily, at least for me, is that I am working on getting my dog to learn to accept the precense of other dogs (even dogs that "challenge" mine by staring and posturing toward him). I need to do this before we can move much forward with showing him in OB, etc. 

He has shown a great deal of improvement in the last few months but obviously has a ways to go.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Baron reacts and starts toward him growling, I hold the leash and Baron bumps into Toula - Toula reacts and snaps at Baron and Baron is in an excited mood and reacts without even thinking about it and snaps at Toula.


Yep. It's called "redirection", when a dog is in an excited/agitated state and mindlessly bites whatever is closest. Not fun when YOU are whatever is closest. I am sure everyone who has trained in bitework has seen it happen at some point.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How is that redirection? He bumped Toula who snarked at him. He then reacted back at Toula. At that point, Burns was just a blip on the radar.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

codmaster said:


> A very good question! And one that I sometimes ask myself! It is more of a training thing than socilization between these two - just a "co-existence" would be enough.
> 
> The main reason is that we are social friends with the other owners.
> Secondarily, at least for me, is that I am working on getting my dog to learn to accept the precense of other dogs (even dogs that "challenge" mine by staring and posturing toward him). I need to do this before we can move much forward with showing him in OB, etc.
> ...


The whole situation seems too relaxed to me to be any kind of training exercise and is way too dangerous for the other dogs involved in my opinion. My GSD is very balanced, but I would never allow him near another reactive dog unless that dog is completely under control with a leash and a very attentive owner. Not sure if that was going on, but it sounds like everyone was just sitting around and relaxing.

If another dog is posturing/challenging my boy I just remove him from the situation. I don't expect him to ignore that kind of behavior. He is a male after all and will stand up for himself/his pack.

It sounds like you are doing a very noble thing as a group to try and get your dogs to accept each other, but I guess I don't see the point. And I'm completely for you hanging out with your friends, it does stink that your dogs won't get along so they can't come along, but when it comes to reactions that involve injuries to innocent dogs or even dogs involved I don't see a reason to keep doing it.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> How is that redirection? He bumped Toula who snarked at him. He then reacted back at Toula. At that point, Burns was just a blip on the radar.


I agree, not redirection. He reacted to Toula because she snarked off to him. Like you said, he doesn't miss his target. 



> Toula reacts and snaps at Baron and Baron is in an excited mood and reacts without even thinking about it and snaps at Toula.
> 
> Unfortunately Baron is the most accurate biter I have seen and hasn't often missed when he snaps and he puts a small split in Toula's left ear.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Redirected aggression would be the dog nailing something completely unrelated to the situation.

Sierra directs her aggression at Jax if there is any excitement between people, the washer goes off balance, the cat jumps and makes a racket.

I eval'd a female in heat who redirected at me and left a bruise on my leg when what she really wanted was to get at Jax.

To me, that is redirection. Toula was directly involved as soon as she snarked at Baron.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have a male aussie who I say has 'displaced' aggression..For example, if he's outside, someone pulls in my driveway, he's going bonkers, he works himself up into a tizzy, usually running to each of the girls, bark bark bark, and usually gets SOOO worked up, he tunes out and nails or tries to nail, one of the girls..

Frustration? most likely, so maybe I should say he is displaced frustration Funny thing, I put a bark collar on him, he is much calmer, doesn't bark, so he doesn't work himself up, stays within 'reality'..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx will do the same, frustration/excitement will have her lashing out at whoever.

What I don't get is why did you let it get to that point without intervening or blocking? I know things happen so fast, but having several dogs together when the dynamics are snarky is always a reason to be on guard. 

I have to block Onyx often, it seems so natural now.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> The whole situation seems too relaxed to me to be any kind of training exercise and is way too dangerous for the other dogs involved in my opinion. My GSD is very balanced, but I would never allow him near another reactive dog unless that dog is completely under control with a leash and a very attentive owner. Not sure if that was going on, but it sounds like everyone was just sitting around and relaxing.
> 
> *If another dog is posturing/challenging my boy I just remove him from the situation. I don't expect him to ignore that kind of behavior.* He is a male after all and will stand up for himself/his pack.
> 
> It sounds like you are doing a very noble thing as a group to try and get your dogs to accept each other, but I guess I don't see the point. And I'm completely for you hanging out with your friends, it does stink that your dogs won't get along so they can't come along, but when it comes to reactions that involve injuries to innocent dogs or even dogs involved I don't see a reason to keep doing it.


*The problem is that sometimes one might not be able to just remove one's dog from a situation and the dog simply must be able to act appropriately. I.E. in a dog show environment, perhaps.*

That is the purpose of what i am trying to train my dog for - if he can learn to ignore Burns, then he should be able to ignore any other dog.

Of course, i would not expect my dog "to turn the other cheek" if another dog actually physicall attacks him but short of physical or exteemely close contact; that is what we are trying to train him for. Slow going but it is slowly working.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Onyx will do the same, frustration/excitement will have her lashing out at whoever.
> 
> What I don't get is why did you let it get to that point without intervening or blocking? I know things happen so fast, but having several dogs together when the dynamics are snarky is always a reason to be on guard.
> 
> I have to block Onyx often, it seems so natural now.


 
I did exactly that with redirecting his attention a number of times and so he had little or no real reaction. This one instance the female dog was right next to him (they are very friendly and get along great usually - in fact toula, the female has put Baron in his place a number of times when he would get pesty with his sniffing and he had absolutely no reaction at all just stopped and looked at her).

Plus this one instance was made much worse by the fact that Burns owner had him on a Flexi lead (don't ask!) and let him get a little too close too quick.

Plus I am unfortunately not perfect with my dog! And he is very very fast reacting!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Ahh, the flexi's are a pain for sure...Burn's owner is lucky s/he has all their digits in their hands! A quick snap and a finger in the way, off goes a finger. 
Now that you know how the dogs are with each other, you all will have that 'on guard' feeling when your group gets together. 
Keeping that from going down the line to Baron(and the other handlers with theirs) will be key.
I hope the dogs forgive and forget!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Redirected aggression would be the dog nailing something completely unrelated to the situation.
> 
> Sierra directs her aggression at Jax if there is any excitement between people, the washer goes off balance, the cat jumps and makes a racket.
> 
> ...


Ordinarily I would certainly agree (esp. since it would let me blame her at least for some of the responsibility for her poor ear); but I have seen her snap at Baron a number of times when he would pester her too much with his pesty attention sniffing and all and in those instances Baron was a perfect gentleman and just stopped and looked at her even though it looked like she was attacking (briefly!). This one was treated VERY differently by my guy. He looked VERY serious toward her. And his attention even after it was just on Burns (original other male!).

An almost 90lb male GSD being VERY serious is unfortunately a most impressive sight - glad that I wasn't on the serious end of my pooch!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Ahh, the flexi's are a pain for sure...Burn's owner is lucky s/he has all their digits in their hands! A quick snap and a finger in the way, off goes a finger.
> Now that you know how the dogs are with each other, you all will have that 'on guard' feeling when your group gets together.
> Keeping that from going down the line to Baron(and the other handlers with theirs) will be key.
> I hope the dogs forgive and forget!


D$%$ Flexi's.

Baron and Toula seem fine with each other - even right after the incident - no reaction to each other at all. Like nothing ever happened.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The situation should be remedied before issues with the "stupid" dogs sour the friendship of the owners .
You can't be easy and casual when you have big drama waiting to unfold.

Baron has some problems with Burns , an issue simmering since puppyhood . Use your obedience to have him under control .
Now Baron and Dakota clash . Dakota has to be controlled - the owner has to use obedience .
Burns has some fear aggression -- he needs to be controlled -- the owner has to use obedience .

Ideally the dogs will be in an environment close to each other under the control and direction of the owners , nice if all lying down , while owners yak away . They can't be interacting -- the conflicts won't change , might intensify , owners will have to be more watchful -- don't wait till some real 3 dog rumble breaks out , even if it is between two and the 3rd or 4th dog join in to get their licks in.

Each person should take their dog out for a vigorous workout including obedience and control , with full attention dog to man and man to dog without distractions .

THEN agree to meet at the local coffee shop or lunch spot and enjoy each others company , dogs safely in their cars.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree all the owners need to be more watchful and learn their dogs posturing and the signals. even though things can happen quick, there are signals if you are watching.

honestly, if my dog were to act inappropriately to another dog , and the other dog clearly wasn't passing any signals and being calm i would personally put him down on his side by the other dog until he gets the idea. especially if it was more of a dominance thing. which is what my dog does. redirecting is fine if the situation calls for it, but just going after a dog for no apparent reason out of dominance needs physical correction. with my dog when he does this i put him on his side wait until he's calm, let him up and tell him to go see the dog "and be nice" when he does i reward him. in this case i don't know if the other dogs were passing any signal before hand its a large group to try and keep in line, but if any of them start going after one another inappropriately the owner needs to be on top of it and address it accordingly, correction and then ending on a good note is more positive then not handling it at all.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Completely agree with Onyx and Carmspack. When placing dogs in a situation where there is hostility, all handlers must be hyper vigilant all the time. Consider yourself lucky that one dog got only a slight tear in the ear which can be stitched. What if it was a hunk chomped off. A very unpleasant thing for the owner to look at for the entire life of the dog.

Since there is more than one handler involved in this scenario, if it was me and any of the other handlers couldn't control their dogs 100%, that would be my cue to leave my dog at home or put him in the car. It seems everyone in this group was asleep at the stick.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i totally agree Marnie! until all handlers can have control i would do exactly that. maybe work with just one other person and dog when everyone has an understanding of whats going on and how to handle it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

codmaster said:


> That is the purpose of what i am trying to train my dog for - if he can learn to ignore Burns, then he should be able to ignore any other dog.


 You do realize that at this point you are successfully training exactly the opposite? By making your dog react time after time after time does not bring your dog closer to ignoring other dogs but, instead, it solidifies his inappropriate reactivity.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Marnie said:


> Completely agree with Onyx and Carmspack. When *placing dogs in a situation where there is hostility*,* (Whoops! guess I wasn't clear enough -- the two dogs involved in the incident WERE NOT HOSTILE to each other at all - to the contrary: they were and remain VERY FRIENDLY with each other often playing with each other. Hence the title of the post "DISPLACED AGGRESSION")* all handlers must be hyper vigilant all the time. Consider yourself lucky that one dog got only a slight tear in the ear which can be stitched. What if it was a hunk chomped off. A very unpleasant thing for the owner to look at for the entire life of the dog.
> 
> Since there is more than one handler involved in this scenario, if it was me and any of the other handlers couldn't control their dogs 100%, that would be my cue to leave my dog at home or put him in the car. *It seems everyone in this group was asleep at the stick.*




Guess we should have asked for expert advice from a few folks here - those who have never had any incident with their dogs doing anything that they are not supposed to.

I guess that would include all of those folks with multiple dogs whose dogs have never had any fighting incident. I now see where this advice would have been really great and helpful.

One little question that I still have though for the experts in dog behavior and training here - it sounds like some of these experts feel it is better to just avoid any possible situation in which my dog might not act appropriately - *I.E. don't train and proof their behavior, just never have them encounter any distracting situation. Is that the case?*

*Darn, wish I had thought of that before!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> You do realize that at this point you are successfully training exactly the opposite? By making your dog react time after time after time does not bring your dog closer to ignoring other dogs but, instead, it solidifies his inappropriate reactivity.


So how would *you* train a dog not to react to another dog? 

I assume from your post that you have some experience in training a DA GSD not to react to another dog. So I would love to hear of your success in doing this.

BTW, so you do understand, I wasn't "making my dog react".

Just to be sure - have you ever heard of the concept of "proofing"? 
Just curious.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

codmaster said:


> *So we are at a park today with my 4yo male GSD and 3 other couples with their GSD's. This is a group that has been together doing socializing and training since our dogs were about 12 weeks old.*
> 
> And there is a strange relationship among the three adult males. Baron (mine) hates Burns and has since almost puppyhood, but Baron and Dakota used to get along great till a year or so ago when Dakota decided that he didn't like Baron and will react to him. BUT, Baron ignores Dakota completely even when he growls at him!* But Burns is scared to death of Baron and reacts often to him and stares at him a LOT.*
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry but quite honestly if these dogs have been socializing and training together for almost four years - I'd get a new trainer. 

Why are reactive dogs so close together? More importantly, why are they so reactive? Do they come from poor breeders? I find it difficult to understand how after four years they still need to be kept under control?

Why is a fearful dog (Burns) put into a situation where he is close to other dogs - especially reactive dogs. Not only that, but instead of being turned away from them - he has to look at them. 

IMO they are all being set up to fail. 

Under what circumstances does Baron snap so accurately?

________________
Sue


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> The situation should be remedied before issues with the "stupid" dogs sour the friendship of the owners .
> You can't be easy and casual when you have big drama waiting to unfold.
> 
> Baron has some problems with Burns , an issue simmering since puppyhood . Use your obedience to have him under control .
> ...


Your dogs must be trained to a much higher degree of obedience than the vast majority of those that I have seen if you can give an obedience command (i.e. sit/down/stay maybe) and have them obey when in the red rage toward another dog!

I think that i have seen maybe three dogs in about 40+ years in dogs and obedience who would be capable of such a level of obedience, esp. if they feel that they are under a real threat from another dog coming toward them.

I would love to hear what methods you would suggest to obtain such a level of obedience.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

So does Burns' owner snap him out of staring at Baron? I guess, to me at least, it just sounds like you're the only one interested in training and proofing your dog in the group (who brings their dog to train on a flexi :crazy and as a result, you aren't doing the good that you're trying to do. Good intentions, wrong situation?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Your dogs must be trained to a much higher degree of obedience than the vast majority of those that I have seen if you can give an obedience command (i.e. sit/down/stay maybe) and have them obey when in the red rage toward another dog!
> 
> I think that i have seen maybe three dogs in about 40+ years in dogs and obedience who would be capable of such a level of obedience, esp. if they feel that they are under a real threat from another dog coming toward them.
> 
> I would love to hear what methods you would suggest to obtain such a level of obedience.


The point of socializing and training in reactive or fearful dogs, at least from my understanding, is to never let your dog get to the point of red rage and feeling like there's a serious threat coming at them. Once they are past that threshold, you've lost control and the "training" is no longer good.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I guess that would include all of those folks with multiple dogs whose dogs have never had any fighting incident. I now see where this advice would have been really great and helpful.


 There's a few of them here, perfect dogs - or just fewer (with cooler tempers than we have) dogs!?

Anyway - redirections - I've dealt with it for years. We had Yaeger, who, when amped up and frustrated about our landlord's dogs, would bite whomever was closest to him. One day that was our Conan (10-11 lb. Dachshund) and he injured that dog, not badly but injured him to where he was sore the rest of the day. So we had to be very careful who was around him when our landlord would drive by - which was very random and we'd just have to be very alert to it all.

We now have a little red-hot pistol who redirects on anyone/everyone. If this dog were bigger she'd be a menace. I've been working with re-redirecting her to me when she starts getting amped up. So instead of biting the closest dog, she comes to me for a nice cuddle. 
She will try to nip our pantslegs too, when we walk through the room quickly. 
She has a very low frustration threshold I guess you could say.

But it's not a particular target, it's whomever is closest when she's upset/barking/frustrated. The other dogs have learned to not get too close. She makes no punctures, but if the "right" (wrong) dog is closeby she might get into what I'd classify as a scuffle with them, because she didn't really want to fight, she's just amped up with no place to go. It's over quickly and no blood is drawn. 
They just view her as "a little schitzy" and steer clear. It's funny in an odd way (not haha funny) because they really do view her as a mental case when she's going off and kind of forgive most her actions, rather than engage with her. 
The only time it is ever an issue is Conan who has an itty bitty fuse (he's always tightly wound anyway) and sometimes they scrap a bit.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> I'm sorry but quite honestly if these dogs have been socializing and training together for almost four years - I'd get a new trainer. *Please don't be sorry. We have used different trainers through the years. Some have improved the relations among the dogs but none can make it perfect.*
> 
> Why are reactive dogs so close together? More importantly, *why are they so reactive?* *Because they don't like each other*! *This is not my opinion but rather the professional opinion of an experienced animal behaviorist that we have used for a couple of years.* Do they come from poor breeders? I find it difficult to understand how after four years they still need to be kept under control? *Sounds like you have never owned a GSD with any behavior problems. That is of course very great for you or maybe you are just a great dog trainer - even better for you!*
> 
> ...


 
Interesting comments!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sashadog said:


> So does Burns' owner snap him out of staring at Baron? I guess, to me at least, it just sounds like you're the only one interested in training and proofing your dog in the group (who brings their dog to train on a flexi :crazy and as a result, you aren't doing the good that you're trying to do. Good intentions, wrong situation?


 
Sometimes he will do that but often doesn't really notice the staring. And unfortunately Baron takes a dog staring at him as a direct challenge to him and if I don't get him in time will react. he actually is getting a lot better than he used to be but as is obvious we still have a ways to go.

For example when we first walked up the group at the BBQ, Burns not only was staring but barking and growling and yet i got Baron to ignore him even with that.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

codmaster said:


> *Sometimes he will do that but often doesn't really notice the staring. And unfortunately Baron takes a dog staring at him as a direct challenge to him and if I don't get him in time will react.* he actually is getting a lot better than he used to be but as is obvious we still have a ways to go.
> 
> For example when we first walked up the group at the BBQ, Burns not only was staring but barking and growling and yet i got Baron to ignore him even with that.


This is exactly why I think you're getting a negative response on this thread. You aren't actively working your dog with other under control dogs, you're willingly putting him in a stressful situation with other dogs that obviously don't like him and are willing to challenge him AND have owners that aren't fully aware of what's going on. Baron is doing his best, is ignoring the challenge like you ask of him but then you continue to keep him in the situation while the other dog is allowed to stare him down. Every dog has their limits. It's one thing if that happens every once in while out in public (and honestly it sounds like Baron would be just fine) but I can't think of any situations where you couldn't just remove him from the situation. Even at shows you can move out of the line of sight of the other dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sashadog said:


> This is exactly why I think you're getting a negative response on this thread. You aren't actively working your dog with other under control dogs, you're willingly putting him in a stressful situation with other dogs that obviously don't like him and are willing to challenge him AND have owners that aren't fully aware of what's going on. Baron is doing his best, is ignoring the challenge like you ask of him but then you continue to keep him in the situation while the other dog is allowed to stare him down. Every dog has their limits. It's one thing if that happens every once in while out in public (and honestly it sounds like Baron would be just fine) but I can't think of any situations where you couldn't just remove him from the situation. Even at shows you can move out of the line of sight of the other dog.


 
I do appreciate the interest of everyone who has posted here (not always agreeing but always appreciative!).

Actually i do work him around a lot of other dogs and situations - i.e. local parks and stores as well as a number of different obedience/Rally classes (and he earned his first rally Q a couple of weekends ago).

And Baron is doing better.

But if i want to show him in OB then he has to learn to better control himself around other dogs even those that challenge him with a stare. Thus we need to give him an opportunity to test him sometimes as we still keep working with him.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think you work up to that, you don't keep testing it when you haven't gotten him completely solid with less challenging situations. And hopefully in a trial you'll be around better behaved and trained dogs, which should help. My dogs are much more likely to react to a dog that's obviously out of control - barking, lunging towards them, than they are to a neutral dog that's simply walking by minding its own business, even if it's looking at them. 

In a class setting Halo is practically perfect, and I can almost always prevent a reaction in public, sometimes even if a dog snarks at her first. But when she does bark at a dog it's ALWAYS because the other dog either barked at her, or gave her the "I want to kill you and I would if I weren't attached to this leash" stink eye, or was clearly not fully under the control of the owner and attempting to lunge towards her. I would think that in an OB trial you wouldn't encounter that kind of situation. She was in her first flyball tournament the weekend before last and was up close and personal with lots of other dogs in a VERY exciting, distracting, and loud environment and she didn't bark at a single dog. These were high drive dogs barking their heads off with anticipation, but it wasn't directed AT her, so she didn't react at all.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> [/COLOR][/B]
> 
> Guess we should have asked for expert advice from a few folks here - those who have never had any incident with their dogs doing anything that they are not supposed to.
> 
> ...


I'll tell you a secrete. I've made my share of mistakes. Haven't we all. Especially with my first dogs, many, many years ago. If I have learned anything from my mistakes it is that I wouldn't post my most embarrassing moments on a forum and expect a lot of sympathetic responses. When I do something dumb, I know it and don't need anybody else to tell me I screwed up. If they do tell me I screwed up, it's probably because I deserve it.

I don't really think the majority are suggesting you avoid contact with other dogs or that you shouldn't challenge your dog with situations they aren't perfectly comfortable in. Hindsight is always 20/20 so I'm just saying if I were in that situation, I would need to know every handler there was really watching their own dogs. One challenging doggie stare and somebody puts on the brakes in that instant. I wouldn't trust my dog around some handler with a flexi leash that isn't even locked. 

You asked for other peoples opinions. IMHO, if dogs with a history of aggression are forced into contact, every handler has to watch body language to make sure the idea of a squabble never even crosses their doggie minds. Letting the situation get to the snarlilng/snapping point is reinforcement of out of control behavior. Control is your objective, right? If I took my dog home it would not be because I couldn't control him. It would be because I couldn't control all the other dogs and couldn't trust their handlers. 

Try looking at it from the point of view of the handler who owned the dog who got her ear torn. The dog won't forget this and so now there are three dogs expecting trouble and feeling defensive.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *jakes mom*
> _I'm sorry but quite honestly if these dogs have been socializing and training together for almost four years - I'd get a new trainer. *Please don't be sorry. We have used different trainers through the years. Some have improved the relations among the dogs but none can make it perfect.*_
> 
> ...





codmaster said:


> Interesting comments!


I have had GSD's with behaviour problems. A one year old rescue who was untrained, wild and seriously reactive - it started out as crazy over exhuberance and ended up as DA by using harsh methods - biggest mistake I ever made. But I would never have deliberately put my dog or other dogs in a situation where there was a danger of them attacking or being attacked, especially as our dog would redirect onto whoever was closest. 

IMO the reactivity needs sorting out first. How miserable for the dog and owner, if neither of you can be relaxed when other dogs are around. 

We also took on a five year old rescue with dog FA. He is fine now and would play with another dog if he was allowed to. 

Yes - I am an advocate of Positive training, because I think it is more effective. The dogs think they are doing what they want - but in reality they are doing what you want them to do - so everybody's happy. 

______________
Sue


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> I have had GSD's with behaviour problems. A one year old rescue who was untrained, wild and seriously reactive - it started out as crazy over exhuberance and *ended up as DA by using harsh methods* - biggest mistake I ever made. But I would never have deliberately put my dog or other dogs in a situation where there was a danger of them attacking or being attacked, especially as our dog would redirect onto whoever was closest.
> 
> *How are you so sure of the cause of his DA? Most behaviorists can't say for sure what causes DA in the majority of case? *
> 
> ...


if PO works then I say use it! 

With some dogs (usually more submissive, less confident ones), it will have a higher likelihood of working than with more independent self confident dogs. With this latter kind of dog, they sometimes need a reminder or two about who is in charge ultimatelly. My relationship with my dog, (maybe unlike with you and a few other PO folks i know here) is most definitly NOT an equal partnership. He must do what I tell him to do when I tell him to do it, and I really don't care if he "wants to please me or not".


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I can't be 100% sure harsh methods made him worse, but I believe they did, as once we stopped using them he improved. And I do know we never used harsh methods indoors and he became the nicest dog you could wish to meet. Fantastic with all people, cats, other dogs and he adored kids.

We can't allow our current dog to play with other dogs, because he suffers with psychomotor seizures and he could attack with no warning at all. Don't get me wrong he's been fine on his medication - but we just can't risk it. 

I'm glad your dogs ok with most other dogs, perhaps you would be better off putting more distance between the ones he isn't. Let them get used to each other slowly. 

As a matter of interest our dog does do as we tell me when we tell him. 

__________________
Sue


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> I can't be 100% sure harsh methods made him worse, but I believe they did, as once we stopped using them he improved.
> 
> *Oh, I thought you had said that harsh methods (And I also assumed you meant by this any leash corrections - not true?)*
> *And you sounded like you knew that the "harsh methods" are what somehow changed his "exuberance" into Fear Aggression. So that was not the case, then?*
> ...


That is great that your dog is reliable.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

> *Oh, I thought you had said that harsh methods (And I also assumed you meant by this any leash corrections - not true?)*
> *And you sounded like you knew that the "harsh methods" are what somehow changed his "exuberance" into Fear Aggression. So that was not the case, then?*





> *I can't be 100% sure harsh methods made him worse, but I believe they did, as once we stopped using them he improved. *


Yes I did mean leash corrections. I can't say any more than above. I do believe it made him worse. Can I prove it 100% - of course I can't - but I do believe it. 



> And I do know we never used harsh methods indoors *(you used different methods to train your dog when you were indoors and when you wer outdoors? Interesting - never heard of that approach before)* and he became the nicest dog you could wish to meet. Fantastic with all people, cats, other dogs and he adored kids.


Doesn't everybody? Who keeps a leash and prong collar on their dog in the house?



> We can't allow our current dog to play with other dogs, because he suffers with psychomotor seizures and he could attack with no warning at all. Don't get me wrong he's been fine on his medication - but we just can't risk it. *Maybe his FA that you mentioned that he had before was really a manifestation of this condition?*


No - he'd been exercised by chasing a laser light and disco ball. He had very little contact with other dogs, and was rarely taken on walks, but he did play ball in the yard. The original owner also decided to have two Yorkshire Terriers - and they nipped at his legs. 
______________
Sue


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Who are the "other PO folks" here?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

codmaster said:


> So we are at a park today with my 4yo male GSD and 3 other couples with their GSD's. This is a group that has been together doing socializing and training since our dogs were about 12 weeks old.
> 
> And there is a strange relationship among the three adult males. Baron (mine) hates Burns and has since almost puppyhood, but Baron and Dakota used to get along great till a year or so ago when Dakota decided that he didn't like Baron and will react to him. BUT, Baron ignores Dakota completely even when he growls at him! But Burns is scared to death of Baron and reacts often to him and stares at him a LOT.
> 
> ...


Eh?
Who's on First?
Could you flowchart this for me?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Eh?
> Who's on First?
> Could you flowchart this for me?



Baron :gsdsit: Burns :gsdsit: Dakota :gsdsit:

Baron :wub: Dakota

Burnsaw:aw:aw:aw:aw: @ Baron then 

Baronaw:aw:aw:aw:aw:@ Burns and bumps into Dakota

Dakota gets  @Baron then Baron gets and bites Dakota

Dakota gets stitches and it has yet to be determined if these dogs should be anywhere near each other

:fingerscrossed: that a lesson has been learned and no more blood is shed


I think that covers it..........opcorn:


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Thank you!!
Who is Toula?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sorry...you got stuck at second!! Dakota was thrown in there just to check reading comprehension!



llombardo said:


> Baron :gsdsit: Burns :gsdsit: Dakota :gsdsit: *Toula*:gsdsit:
> 
> Baron :wub: *Toula*
> 
> ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Hilarious!!! Toula is my favorite of the whole bunch! I hope she is feeling better after this.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Sorry...you got stuck at second!! Dakota was thrown in there just to check reading comprehension!


Thank you....How could I forget Dakota? That is probably the dog that started it all without even knowing it Can you tell I've had a long week? My flow chart only semi flowed


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You once again forgot Toula!! You need a break, may I offer you a dogtini?!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Thank you!!
> Who is Toula?


Thats my fault I forgot about Toula and mixed up Toula and Dakota and Toula is the poor baby that got hurt Dakota was there but not really part of the problem. Just an extra dog in the mix Needless to say I know have the whole situation memorized


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> You once again forgot Toula!! You need a break, may I offer you a dogtini?!


:spittingcoffee::rofl::rofl: Y'all are cracking me up!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There was no sane reason for any dog to have gotten stitches, JMO.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> if PO works then I say use it!
> With some dogs (usually more submissive, less confident ones), it will have a higher likelihood of working than with more independent self confident dogs. With this latter kind of dog, they sometimes need a reminder or two about who is in charge ultimatelly.


Can you give an example of how your dog is independent and self confident, and why a dog like that would need to be reminded of who's in charge more often than any other dog? I don't get the connection.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Are dogs that are more independent and confident less biddable?


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Baron :gsdsit: Burns :gsdsit: Dakota :gsdsit:
> 
> Baron :wub: Dakota
> 
> ...





onyx'girl said:


> You once again forgot Toula!! You need a break, may I offer you a dogtini?!


*Brilliant - I Love it *
Sue


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Falkosmom said:


> Are dogs that are more independent and confident less biddable?


Not necessarily, no.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> *Brilliant - I Love it *
> Sue


 

*Me too!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

"Originally Posted by *Falkosmom*  
_Are dogs that are more independent and confident less biddable?"_



Cassidy's Mom said:


> Not necessarily, no.


"Biddable" = docile; obedient
"Biddable" = Following directions or obeying commands; docile.


By definition - yes!

Much more apt to want to decide what they want to do and when, more likely to take charge and act (without more training of course).

Less likely to wait for someone else to decvide what to do.

Lots of dogs will hide behind their owners when a threat is seen.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> There was no sane reason for any dog to have gotten stitches, JMO.


 
How about because the vet said that the cut would heal better with a stitch or two?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Can you give an example of how your dog is independent and self confident, and why a dog like that would need to be reminded of who's in charge more often than any other dog? I don't get the connection.


Have you ever had a GSD (or other breed) who was very confident and independent? 

It doesn't sound like it, so just in case - if I take him in the public his natural tendency is to want to greet everybody we see, if i would let him go in a store, he would want to go exploring to see what he can see (keeping in touch with me but off looking). He is an extremely curious dog and notices just about all changes in the house and yard.

He has been very confident, ever since a baby puppy - with people, other animals, noises (i.e. July 4), appliances, always curious never timid or shy, etc. Sort of what I think a GSD should be (with a touch too much DA toward a few other dogs).

I wouldn't want a shrinking violet, or shy, or fearful, or one hung up on his owner if I was to walk down a dark alley (or similar place) with my GSD, would you?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Oh I am sure the stitches were needed medically, I mean the probability of the fight taking place was so easy to see, that it should have never happened.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> A very good question! And one that I sometimes ask myself! It is more of a training thing than socilization between these two - just a "co-existence" would be enough.
> 
> The main reason is that we are social friends with the other owners.
> Secondarily, at least for me, is that I am working on getting my dog to learn to accept the precense of other dogs (even dogs that "challenge" mine by staring and posturing toward him). I need to do this before we can move much forward with showing him in OB, etc.
> ...


Just keep them on a leash. :help:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Just keep them on a leash. :help:


 
If you read the thread you will see that all the dogs were on a leash at all times.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Oh I am sure the stitches were needed medically, I mean the probability of the fight taking place was so easy to see, that it should have never happened.


 
cliffson1,

There was no "fight" - one dog got upset at his old nemesis when he came toward him with a real obvious attitude, and misdirected his aggression on the female, Toula; probably due mainly to frstration at not being able to get to him and reacting when the female came into contact with him. Baron and Toula were friendly immediately before and after their contact.

BTW, if you really think it was a "fight", then I still cannot understand how you would say the *"probability of the fight taking place was so easy to see, that it should have never happened"* given that Baron and Toula are best friends, often play together and have never had any cross words whatsoever in more than 2+ years of weekly getr togethers?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

be involved with enough dogs for long enough, and you'll have some issues along the way. I promise you


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Personally, I think he is doing it from the wrong end. 

The bedience has to be so intense and a 150% and I am not talking about the "obeying commands" type of obedience. 

With the right level and type of obedience the dog would completely ignore the other dogs and wouldn't even notice that the dogs were there. 
If the dog does get distracted, the foundation is not good enough. 

There are plenty of dog aggressive dogs in Schutzhund, yet those handlers can take out their dogs and walk by another dog without having any of these kind of problems you have because the dog focuses on his handler, not on the other dogs. 

If your dog is easily distracted by other dogs and other things, than the obedience is just not good enough and I'd go back practicing obedience instead of CONSTANTLY setting the dog up for failure.

BTDT not going back there ever again.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Codmaster:

I think what you are missing is that from the outside it is an obvious accident waiting to happen. Several issues between a group of dogs, and their owners socializing with each other.
In a group like that you can't count on everyone to take proper care of their own dogs,
Like I said way back at the begining of this thread there is too much going on and leaving my dog home would work best for me.
If you were training you would want a much more controlled situation than this one.
We all make mistakes. I've probably learned more from mistakes than I care to admit.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Personally, I think he is doing it from the wrong end.
> 
> ...........................
> There are plenty of dog aggressive dogs in Schutzhund, yet those handlers can take out their dogs and walk by another dog without having any of these kind of problems you have because the dog focuses on his handler, not on the other dogs.
> ...


Absolutely correct that the obedience must be improved! No queston and we are working on that very thing! And my pooch is MUCH improved even in the last few months. OTOH, one must remember that this dislike (hatred?) of this other particular GSD is a nearly lifetime thing and is not easily overcome.

As far as ScH dogs, do you really think that all Sch dogs are trustworthy wth other dogs when loose together? If so, then i better find another club and trainer to join as that is definetly not the case in my local club - just the opposite in that most folks are very cautious about letting the dogs close even when on leash.

iN FACT, DON'T THE ScH RULES STATE THAT THE DOG ON THE LONG DOWN (OFF LEAD) HAS TO LEAVE THE FIELD WHEN THE OTHER DOG DOES THE RECALL EXERCISE? (Whoops sorry about caps!)

Wonder why if the dogs are always good with each other?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Codmaster:
> 
> I think what you are missing is that from the outside it is an obvious accident waiting to happen. Several issues between a group of dogs, and their owners socializing with each other.
> In a group like that you can't count on everyone to take proper care of their own dogs,
> ...


 
Very true about leaving the dogs home or better just bringing them out one at a time. All but Burns and dakota are very good with all the people involved. Those two can be a little edgy with people sometimes.

BUT, I was outvoted for this particular outing - when we socialize at each others homes we leave our own dogs at home.

Ditto for mistakes! Big time! I certainly would not have expected the displaced aggression toward Toula from my guy! (Now I will expect to see this perhaps and will guard against it better.)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Absolutely correct that the obedience must be improved! No queston and we are working on that very thing! And my pooch is MUCH improved even in the last few months. OTOH, one must remember that this dislike (hatred?) of this other particular GSD is a nearly lifetime thing and is not easily overcome.
> 
> As far as ScH dogs, do you really think that all Sch dogs are trustworthy wth other dogs when loose together? If so, then i better find another club and trainer to join as that is definetly not the case in my local club - just the opposite in that most folks are very cautious about letting the dogs close even when on leash.
> 
> ...


Urm, I was talking about leashed dogs. Not lose dogs... 
And every SchH handler is different, training methods are different. However, if you know that your dog has issues, change something. 

You said your dogs were leashed when I said "Just keep them on a leash" and yet something happened. If that's the case, you need to go back to the foundation.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> If so, then i better find another club and trainer to join as that is definetly not the case in my local club - just the opposite in that most folks are very cautious about letting the dogs close even when on leash.


Do you think this is because of leash reactivity or DA?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Urm, I was talking about leashed dogs. Not lose dogs...
> And every SchH handler is different, training methods are different. However, if you know that your dog has issues, change something.
> 
> You said your dogs were leashed when I said "Just keep them on a leash" and yet something happened. If that's the case, you need to go back to the foundation.


 
Don't forget - the two dogs that had the incident (Baron and Toula) were very friendly with each other and NEVER had any aggression before!.

The two who had issues were not within maybe 8-10'!

It was REDIRECTED AGGRESSION that caused the problem - maybe i wasn't clear enough when i explained that as some folks seem to have forgotten (or maybe ignored or didn't know what that concept means).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> Do you think this is because of leash reactivity or DA?


 
Just because of big caution on the part of the members. 

And there have been a couple of incidents which indicate that maybe it is justified!

For example a few weeks ago two female dogs were in the field at the same time - one was doing OB exercise while the other one was on the down stay. Somehow, (I wasn't at the field that day), the dog doing the recall decided that she didn't like the other dog being on the field (they have a history of aggression with each other - and before anyone says anything I don't know why they were on the field together as these handlers were both extremely experienced handlers both having competed at the international ScH level successfully). The recall dog ran over to the other one and jumped on her and fighting commenced - no real harm done but it was an example of ScH dogs 

1. Not being under great control (1 of them anyway) 
2. Trained ScH dogs being DA. it happens! 

The handlers were the training directer and the assistand trainer in the club.

And all of you Sch folks and others who scoff at this behavior - How many of your dogs would ignore a loose dog running on the field and up to them on the down stay? Would you expect them to? If they would, then big congrats in store for you!


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Just curious, the female that failed her recall, what was her level of obedience?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Hmmmm, I have a more independent and very confident dog who is also quite biddable. She's actually a joy to train.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Interesting discussion about biddability from a couple of years ago: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/142617-biddable-vs-compliant.html



Chris Wild said:


> Biddability, to me, doesn't refer to how much the dog loves to work or is willing to work with and for the handler, but WHY the dog does it.
> 
> A biddable dog has a natural motivation to work with the handler. They find the handler attractive, want to engage the handler and interact with the handler and please the handler. This factor of pack/social drive is a strong motivator for them.


Nothing in there about being docile!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Interesting discussion about biddability from a couple of years ago: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/142617-biddable-vs-compliant.html
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing in there about being docile!


 
*Look up the definition of "Biddable". ("Docile" is a part of most definitions given.)*

*Could be that some folks use different words differently?*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yes, people DO use words differently in the context of dog behavior. "Civil" is a perfect example - it means almost the exact opposite when you're talking about dogs as how it's defined in the dictionary, so if you were only familiar with the dictionary definition you'd be very confused in a discussion about civil dogs on the forum.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I understood that the fact that GSD's were biddable was the very reason they were used as service dogs in the first place. 

_____________________
Sue


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> I understood that the fact that GSD's were biddable was the very reason they were used as service dogs in the first place.
> 
> _____________________
> Sue


 
I would guess that some are more "biddable' than others.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

First off, if Burns is "scared to death" of Baron, why would he "start towards Baron, growling"? Why does Burns "stare at" Baron all the time? That's challenging behavior, not "scared" behavior. 

IME, a dog afraid of another dog does not stare at that dog, it usually avoids looking altogether. 

Sorry if this has been gone over before.

Baron was reacting like a normal dog who has been challenged would react, going towards the dog issuing the threat...but here...



> I hold the leash and Baron bumps into Toula - Toula reacts and snaps at Baron and Baron is in an excited mood and reacts without even thinking about it and snaps at Toula.


IMO, this is not "redirection" or else he'd have snapped at Toula long before she snapped at him. He may have been already overstimulated by Burn's challenge, but he took it one step further and squelched Tula's snapping quickly.

See...if Toula had merely lain there and did not snap, and Baron bit her, injuring her ear, I could say "yes, that's redirection". But she challenged him as well and Baron responded. The snap (from Toula) is the challenge. If it was true redirection, he'd not have just bumped into Toula, when he got close enough he'd have tied into her. She'd never have seen it coming. 

I'll try to get a video some time of my pscho Doxie girl's redirection and you can see that nobody challenges her, in fact they are leaving her vicinity, and she's aimlessly and without direction snapping at whomever is closest.

Now if someone takes offense to her redirecting on them, she may get into a quick tiff with them, but there's nobody driving her initial 'attacks' on them, except the foster dog on the other side of the gate. She can't get to that dog, so she snaps at one closer.

So...if dogs could talk (instead of growl and snap for language) they'd have been saying...

*BURNS:* Oh there you are, my nemesis! I'm ready for you this time and I'm sick of you! Come over here and get a piece of me!

*BARON:* The **** you say!! 

*BURNS:* Well what'cha gonna DO about it, tough guy!?

*BARON:* Imma come over there and SHOW you...(bumps into Toula)

*TOULA:* WATCH it, creep!!! (snap)

*BARON:* Oh, the **** YOU say!! You want a piece of me, TOO?? (snaps right back, nailing her ear)

All actors and actresses exit stage left directly to vet hospital.

Shorter leashes, yanno?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> First off, if Burns is "scared to death" of Baron, why would he "start towards Baron, growling"? Why does Burns "stare at" Baron all the time? That's challenging behavior, not "scared" behavior.
> 
> IME, a dog afraid of another dog does not stare at that dog, it usually avoids looking altogether.
> 
> ...


*Very nice story - not what actually happened, but very well written.*

*Shorter leashes on who? Burns perhaps, but I had about 2' of leash on Baron and the same with Toula and her owner. We were sitting right next to each other on a picnic bench. Can't get too much shorter than that.*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> From that behavior I would come to the same conclusion as the behaviorist and trainer, wouldn't you?


Hm. I _might_ have, had that information been given! From the info given, it doesn't sound fearful at all 

I still maintain a dog that stares is challenging. An afraid dog would avoid, not stare. Unless Burns has real bad manners, period. 



> have you ever tried to break up a dog fight by grabbing one of the dogs? If not, don't or you very likely may get a lesson in "Misdirected Aggression".


No, I would never do that. 
I've seen and dealt with re-direction enough to know it when I see it. A Chow we had was frustrated he could not bite my cat, so whipped around and tried to bite _me_ - but I did nothing to instigate that, and it was lightening fast. I had to literally dangle him to avoid being bitten. 

Your situation is muddied due to Toula's _snapping at him first._ 

Had she not snapped he'd never have gone for her. And since he only bit her after she snapped, we cannot be sure if it's 'mis directed aggression' or re-direction or what-have-you.

Now, had he turned and bitten _your_ hand or leg, that'd be true redirection.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Hm. I _might_ have, had that information been given! From the info given, it doesn't sound fearful at all
> 
> I still maintain a dog that stares is challenging. An afraid dog would avoid, not stare. Unless Burns has real bad manners, period. *He does that though!*
> 
> ...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Why not just throw in the towel and say "all the dogs were being highly reactive to each other" 

BTW our last GSD whom I don't mention (may one day) because it is too painful, did try on more than one occasion to redirect upon me, and I felt teeth on my arm although he did not close/bite down.
It's no fun.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Why not just throw in the towel and say "all the dogs were being highly reactive to each other"
> 
> BTW our last GSD whom I don't mention (may one day) because it is too painful, did try on more than one occasion to redirect upon me, and I felt teeth on my arm although he did not close/bite down.
> It's no fun.


 
Because they weren't all doing it to each other only some of them to some of the others.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> msvette2u said:
> 
> 
> > I still maintain a dog that stares is challenging. An afraid dog would avoid, not stare. Unless Burns has real bad manners, period.
> ...


I'm confused. From what I have read on other threads on here regarding leash reactive fear based DA, I was left with the impression that many of these dogs bark, lunge and snap at other dogs. I just assumed they were making eye contact with the other dog.

So then can one assume that eye contact actually has little to do with fear or aggression, but more to do with the particular dog and its issues? And then really in essence means nothing?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> I'm confused. From what I have read on other threads on here regarding leash reactive fear based DA, I was left with the impression that many of these dogs bark, lunge and snap at other dogs. I just assumed they were making eye contact with the other dog.
> *Some leash based aggression will show up that way (and it may not be Fear based but just true "I don't like you" aggression!*
> So then can one assume that eye contact actually has little to do with fear or aggression, but more to do with the particular dog and its issues? And then really in essence means nothing?


Just like with many aspects of dog language, staring has to be read in the total context. Some dogs just stare naturally i.e. border collies are a breed i can think of. And there are different kinds of stares - a friendly "I want to play" or maybe a "I will kill you" and some in between. 

What do you think a wagging tail means in dog language? Many people would say it equals a friendly dog, sometimes it does but other times it can mean a very aggressive and dangerous dog.

*Dog language is not as easy to read as many folks would like you to believe and most definetily not all dog behavior is fear based as other folks try to convince everyone to believe.*


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Just like with many aspects of dog language, staring has to be read in the total context. Some dogs just stare naturally i.e. border collies are a breed i can think of. And there are different kinds of stares - a friendly "I want to play" or maybe a "I will kill you" and some in between.
> 
> What do you think a wagging tail means in dog language? Many people would say it equals a friendly dog, sometimes it does but other times it can mean a very aggressive and dangerous dog.
> 
> *Dog language is not as easy to read as many folks would like you to believe and most definetily not all dog behavior is fear based as other folks try to convince everyone to believe.*


I think you are right. Seems the more I learn, the less I know. 

I also read that DA is a display of lack of confidence. But aren't confidence and DA genetic? So if a dog inherents the genetics to be confident and DA, then how can its DA be considered to be FA when genetically it is a confident dog?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Although there might be a "standard" in dog language I think it depends on the dog, the breed, the situation. The best case scenario is that the owner of the dog knows what their own dogs language is. If they can read their dog's language then they know when to walk away, they know when to run


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> Although there might be a "standard" in dog language I think it depends on the dog, the breed, the situation. The best case scenario is that the owner of the dog knows what their own dogs language is. If they can read their dog's language then they know when to walk away, they know when to run


Run from their own dog...!? 

I learned dog body language on the job. As an ACO I had to pick up dangerous dogs - fun! But my point is, it's integral to know what a dog is "saying" with his body language. And having rescued and rehomed around 150 dogs per year hasn't hurt that process at all 

Many "aggressive" dogs are interesting because it turns out they are the most fearful/submissive dogs in the long run. They became aggressive as a last resort because people missed their cues and (kids) were harassing them endlessly. I took 2 dogs from a home w/kids that just abused these dogs, and both times these dogs were submissive puppies, but the kids bugging them constantly made them biters. Working with them like we did, we uncovered their submissive sides and they were eventually rehomed to child free environments! 

If you watch a litter of puppies, every litter that comes along, you start to see the patterns, and every dog knows it, it is hardwired information. 

I purchased a book on dog body language recently. 
Their body languages aren't different from dog to dog, they are still the same, but what changes is other dogs' interpretation of it.

And of course all owners should strive to learn it, especially if they want to frequent dog parks and have play groups they go to on a regular basis.

Amazon.com: Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog (9781929242351): Brenda Aloff: Books

Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs (9780345446787): Patricia B. McConnell: Books


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This again is not something I'm going to argue about, I've had many dogs also and I can tell you some of the body language is standard, but all my dogs were different in some areas...I'm sure that the books you recommended are great but I don't believe everything I read, I base 99% of my opinions based on experience and experience only. My point on my post is that if you don't know your dog then you should get to know them so nothing bad happens and until then both handler/dog should not put other dogs at risk.Its a mixture of posture, ears, and IMO the eyes say it all...you gotta watch their facial expressions. 

Note...the know when to walk and to know when to run was suppose to be humor...its from a song


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Unlike humans, all dogs speak the same language. They don't have a hard understanding each other, it's us humans that have a problem. 

Turid Rugaas has spent years studying canines and how they communicate. I'd add any of her books to the ones posted by msvette for anyone who's interested in learning more about canine communication. (the one she posted by Brenda Aloff is really, really good btw)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> *Unlike humans, all dogs speak the same language. They don't have a hard understanding each other, it's us humans that have a problem. *
> 
> Turid Rugaas has spent years studying canines and how they communicate. I'd add any of her books to the ones posted by msvette for anyone who's interested in learning more about canine communication. (the one she posted by Brenda Aloff is really, really good btw)


I have that book and just love it. It gives you new understanding about why things go awry between dogs, why one's body language can be misinterpreted by another dog, etc. 

I think people do dogs a disservice by not learning dog body language, but if you're going to try, do try to learn it correctly, because to do less is also a disservice. 

For instance...people will try to place their own interpretation on their dog's body language...the owner may be off base, but the other dogs _do_ usually read it correctly, and the owner is baffled, because _they_ mis-interpreted it. 
At that point you have to say "Gosh, maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but the other dog _is _right". How could another dog mis-read it? Well, it _could_ happen, for sure, but what matters is that my dog did A, and the other dog thought B, or "knew" B was about to happen, so did C in response.

It doesn't really matter at the end of the day what interpretations we give it or how we see it, what matters is black and white - how the other dog saw it and responded.

In the OPs case, the "scared" dog is giving off very inflammatory body language and signals and the OPs dog is responding like any 'dominant' dog who is challenged would respond. How we interpret the 1st dog's body language is really moot at this point, what matters is what's happening _now_, and right _now_, there's going to be a rumble! Well, that day anyway


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Dog language is certainly open to interpretation esp. by human, but also between dogs.

For example, did you know that sniffing the ground is a sign of anxiety/nervousness and/or fear in a dog? I have had two different "pro" obedience tell me that (seperately) when my dog started sniffing while he was on a down stay. They both told me not to correct this behavior (either verbaly or with a small leash corretion reminder).

This dog was not in the least fearful or nervous - he just figured there was somethinbg good to smell where he was (inside on a rubber matt and where there were numerous accidents and also a very good chance of finding some piece of a treat (BIG FOOD hound!).

I think that Turid mentions this aspect of sniffing and doggy anxiety in her book! But I believe that she also indicates somewhere that one must interpret and observe ALL of a dog language signals not just an isolated one.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Thanks for the good book references. Now which one.....


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Dog language is certainly open to interpretation esp. by human, but also between dogs.
> 
> For example, did you know that sniffing the ground is a sign of anxiety/nervousness and/or fear in a dog? I have had two different "pro" obedience tell me that (seperately) when my dog started sniffing while he was on a down stay. They both told me not to correct this behavior (either verbaly or with a small leash corretion reminder).
> 
> ...


Yeah. Yawning - some dogs just yawn, boredom or whatever. Nose licking. Sometimes their nose just gets dry and they need to lick it!
But when taking pics - those are the two biggest "messer uppers", because the dogs get so stressed, hate the flash, etc.! You see _all_ the "calming signals" that dogs can trot out!

It's fun - I enjoy watching and learning about the dogs here. We learn something new, I think, each one that comes through.

I was amazed back when we first started rescuing, back in 2007 or so, my daughter was around 12yrs. old.
I was clipping a dog that had come in from a shelter, he was wearing dreadlocks of fecal material and dirt/sawdust. I mean you could barely tell one end from the other, on this dog. It was a mess 
So I'm clipping the dog that the shelter asked me for help with, and I had my daughter holding the leash and helping hold the dog still.

As I got closer to the dog's head, he suddenly stopped panting (he had been pretty nervous and panting due to that) and kind of held his breath.
My 12yr. old just says "Better be careful, he may nip". 

I was amazed and proud that she'd 1) noticed and 2) interpreted his sudden tenseness as increased nervousness and a potential nip!


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