# Have you ever been asked..........??



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

The last two times I've taken Misha to the dog park I've gotten the same question.
"Is there something wrong with your dogs back legs?"

Now Misha is just over five months old and has that GSD gait and lower back end, so I guess what I'm wondering is are dog people unfamiliar with how a GSD is supposed to look or move?


----------



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Sprout said:


> The last two times I've taken Misha to the dog park I've gotten the same question.
> "Is there something wrong with your dogs back legs?"
> 
> Now Misha is just over five months old and has that GSD gait and lower back end, so I guess what I'm wondering is are dog people unfamiliar with how a GSD is supposed to look or move?


Sorry in my opinion even a GSD should not have the gait and lower back end that some of the extreme showlines produce... it looks freakish and unnatural. That is NOT how the GSD is SUPPOSED to be the working line GSD with the straight back is how a GSD is suppose to gait and look in the back end, the Kennel clubs made these freakish standards that are so far off from what the original GSD was bred to look like/gait.


Sorry to all those Show line GSD lovers out there but that is JMHO!


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I got that all the time from the Border Collie people I was surrounded by when we were herding.
Sheilah


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

mandiah89 said:


> Sorry in my opinion even a GSD should not have the gait and lower back end that some of the extreme showlines produce... it looks freakish and unnatural. That is NOT how the GSD is SUPPOSED to be the working line GSD with the straight back is how a GSD is suppose to gait and look in the back end, the Kennel clubs made these freakish standards that are so far off from what the original GSD was bred to look like/gait.
> 
> 
> Sorry to all those Show line GSD lovers out there but that is JMHO!


 
She doesnt have that extreme show dog look and comes from an amazing Schutzhund import line, not show lineage.

Forgive my ignorance, it's always seemed to me that GSD's have an elegant saunter about them that other breeds do not.

??


----------



## MiaMoo (Apr 6, 2013)

mandiah89 said:


> Sorry in my opinion even a GSD should not have the gait and lower back end that some of the extreme showlines produce... it looks freakish and unnatural. That is NOT how the GSD is SUPPOSED to be the working line GSD with the straight back is how a GSD is suppose to gait and look in the back end, the Kennel clubs made these freakish standards that are so far off from what the original GSD was bred to look like/gait.
> 
> 
> Sorry to all those Show line GSD lovers out there but that is JMHO!


I personally agree. I had never seen/heard of any GSD with the sloped down back until I joined this forum, learned about the different lines and started looking at some videos. It doesn't look right to me. If I were to see one in person prior to being on this site, I would definitely have thought there was something wrong with the dog's hind legs.

Mia's back is straight and I've never noticed anything particularly different about the way she walked.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mandiah89 said:


> Sorry in my opinion even a GSD should not have the gait and lower back end that some of the extreme showlines produce... it looks freakish and unnatural. That is NOT how the GSD is SUPPOSED to be the working line GSD with the straight back is how a GSD is suppose to gait and look in the back end, the Kennel clubs made these freakish standards that are so far off from what the original GSD was bred to look like/gait.
> 
> 
> Sorry to all those Show line GSD lovers out there but that is JMHO!


What kennel clubs changed the standard? I'm pretty sure all the standards are the same...its the interpretation that is different.

Usually interpreted by the judge...who although is certified or whatever through a kennel club, usually has their own opinions about the breed and the standard which they will value over others.

Although I don't like what we would consider the ASL AKC dog...they sometimes have a more exaggerated back end when they're growing. Since your dog is 5 months old, her proportions could be off and she's moving weirder than normal.

I have a WL dog with a straighter back and more regular dog/upright stance. You can't imagine how many people are now in the "know" and have come up to me to praise me for the fact that his back end looks normal. They go into how the other dogs look handicapped and their hips are garbage...blah blah blah. I usually take the time to explain to them that it has nothing to do with the hips and all about the angulation in the leg joints.

There has been a recent "return" to a more normal dog...many breeders just went too far with the angulation.


----------



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

martemchik said:


> What kennel clubs changed the standard? I'm pretty sure all the standards are the same...its the interpretation that is different.
> 
> Usually interpreted by the judge...who although is certified or whatever through a kennel club, usually has their own opinions about the breed and the standard which they will value over others.
> 
> ...



Show me one GSD that has one Best of Breed or Best in show that has a straight back... its not even just based on a judges interpretation, that is how a SL GSD is suppose to look like I dont think I have ever seen a WL GSD with a straight back and little to no slope in the back end in shows.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mandiah89 said:


> Show me one GSD that has one Best of Breed or Best in show that has a straight back... its not even just based on a judges interpretation, that is how a SL GSD is suppose to look like I dont think I have ever seen a WL GSD with a straight back and little to no slope in the back end in shows.


You claimed the written standard was changed by the kennel clubs...I'd like to know which kennel clubs and what exactly they changed.

And for what its worth their backs are STRAIGHT...they're just not PARALLEL to the ground. This is the biggest thing that people find confusing...a straight line can be straight in any direction...but you guys always confuse straight with parallel to the ground...two different things. And no where in the standard is anything mentioned about the back being parallel to the ground.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Sprout, do you mean how their back legs have a bend (hock) in them?

GSD









Lab


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Z is 5 month and still runs all puppy/funny so we gets looks all the time and people ask all the time.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

How a GSD is "supposed" to move is a matter of how the standards are interpreted and there is a great deal of contention within the breed as to what that means. I think all the standards would agree that efficiency is paramount but how they determine that in a show competition is highly variable.

At 5 months she is probably at an awkward gangly puppy stage anyway.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Rather than turn this into a straight/sloped back argument, which everyone can (and has) go around in circles on forever.... how about the OP just post a pic of her dog? Side profile? 

I got those comments too when Echo was all gangly and growing around that age. GSD's can look like their hocks are more pronounced than other breeds because of their natural stance (a lot of GSD's will sort of "stack" naturally), but when they're standing up straight it's not as apparent.


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> Rather than turn this into a straight/sloped back argument, which everyone can (and has) go around in circles on forever.... how about the OP just post a pic of her dog? Side profile?
> 
> I got those comments too when Echo was all gangly and growing around that age. GSD's can look like their hocks are more pronounced than other breeds because of their natural stance (a lot of GSD's will sort of "stack" naturally), but when they're standing up straight it's not as apparent.


LoveEcho, I'll take a photo of Misha tonight for that purpose.

Scott

LOL
sorry, I'm a Him not a her.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

There are variances of degrees in angulation in the ring, some more extreme than others. Stacking the dog gives the appearance of the slope, many of which are 'straight' when not stacked. People look at showline stacked pictures and think that is how the dog 'is'. It's a presentation (pic).


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Courtney said:


> Sprout, do you mean how their back legs have a bend (hock) in them?
> 
> GSD
> 
> ...


Yes, that's for sure part of it.
She carry's herself very much the same way as the photo,though doesnt self stack like that.


----------



## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

mandiah89 said:


> Sorry in my opinion even a GSD should not have the gait and lower back end that some of the extreme showlines produce... it looks freakish and unnatural. That is NOT how the GSD is SUPPOSED to be the working line GSD with the straight back is how a GSD is suppose to gait and look in the back end, the Kennel clubs made these freakish standards that are so far off from what the original GSD was bred to look like/gait.
> 
> 
> Sorry to all those Show line GSD lovers out there but that is JMHO!


I agree, surprisingly, when i was at the last DKC show, had Max there representing T.D.INC, a lot of people stopped by and commented on "now thats what a GSD should look like" referring to his straight back


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Sprout said:


> LoveEcho, I'll take a photo of Misha tonight for that purpose.
> 
> Scott
> 
> ...


:rofl: sorry!!! I don't know why I'm always assuming posters are women... I think a lot of male posters assume other posters are men, too. :blush:


In any case, I wouldn't worry! There is nothing stranger looking (or cuter) than a leggy, bat-eared awkward GSD puppy.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

My dog Cubby is not a "chick magnet." At least not yet, lol.

Some questions still haven't been asked of me about my GSD on walks.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

Sprout said:


> The last two times I've taken Misha to the dog park I've gotten the same question.
> "Is there something wrong with your dogs back legs?"
> 
> Now Misha is just over five months old and has that GSD gait and lower back end, so I guess what I'm wondering is are dog people unfamiliar with how a GSD is supposed to look or move?


More seriously, my dog has a straight back - when she lowers herself to the ground at a trot one can see she's the picture of perfect health - and she looks glam too upright when she walks fast when really excited!


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What's more important for me is WHO is making that comment rather than what it is. If its someone I meet at a dog park, that doesn't know anything about the GSD breed or what a conformation show is...why does their opinion matter? If its someone that has been involved in the breed, showed, trialed, seen hundreds of dogs, then I can see how its at least worth something.

But the one thing that really gets me is this "straight back (parallel) back = healthy hips/dog" thing. What does one have to do with the other? You all realize that the hip could be lower than the withers and the angle of the leg into the socket could be more extreme...but it has nothing to do with HD. HD is how the bone fits into the socket...something no one can see with the naked eye.

It's kind of like seeing a normal sized lab and telling the owner its too skinny...just because you're used to seeing one thing doesn't mean its correct.


----------



## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

It depends! I personally dislike extreme stacking in a dog. I prefer a dog with a normal appearance. Then again, I'm not looking to win a show judge's vote.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> But the one thing that really gets me is this "*straight back (parallel) back = healthy hips/dog" thing. *What does one have to do with the other? You all realize that the hip could be lower than the withers and the angle of the leg into the socket could be more extreme...but it has nothing to do with HD. HD is how the bone fits into the socket...something no one can see with the naked eye.


As a side note, this grinds my gears too-- I see a LOT of people on facebook, etc, going on and on about how straight their dog's backs are, when they're actually swaybacked...which is...not good. 

There's also an alarming number of people who don't understand that a stack is a stance, and that the dog doesn't look like that when standing up straight  (I don't mean you, Norman... I mean people who literally say that that is how the dog is built and the legs are crouched like that always)


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Norman! LMAO!
Misha's at that "omg, she's so cute" stage. She get's a lot of attention, so yes, she's a chick magnent for sure. 
Just hope when my wife's with her she's not a dude magnent!! 

martemchik-

I couldnt agree more. The people asking really dont have an idea of what a well bred GSD looks like. I was just surprised at the comment from those people and at the same time always happy when others go on and on about how perfect she is.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

martemchik said:


> But the one thing that really gets me is this "straight back (parallel) back = healthy hips/dog" thing. What does one have to do with the other? You all realize that the hip could be lower than the withers and the angle of the leg into the socket could be more extreme...but it has nothing to do with HD. HD is how the bone fits into the socket...something no one can see with the naked eye.



No kidding! I have a straight backed girl with HD!


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Here's Misha barking at my nieces as the kick their feet in the pool. They think it's funny because she gets bent over it! And so do I. lol

The pic shows pretty good side view.


----------



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

martemchik said:


> What's more important for me is WHO is making that comment rather than what it is. If its someone I meet at a dog park, that doesn't know anything about the GSD breed or what a conformation show is...why does their opinion matter? If its someone that has been involved in the breed, showed, trialed, seen hundreds of dogs, then I can see how its at least worth something.
> 
> But the one thing that really gets me is this "straight back (parallel) back = healthy hips/dog" thing. What does one have to do with the other? You all realize that the hip could be lower than the withers and the angle of the leg into the socket could be more extreme...but it has nothing to do with HD. HD is how the bone fits into the socket...something no one can see with the naked eye.
> 
> It's kind of like seeing a normal sized lab and telling the owner its too skinny...just because you're used to seeing one thing doesn't mean its correct.



No it does not have to do with "healthy hips" both dog with straight backs (your typical WL) and your typical SL dog are both at risk to have HD and to have hip problems, but the way they gait is just unnatural looking to me. Im not even sure anyone mentioned HD or hip problems in this thread? So who its coming up now by you I have no idea... its the way the dog looks and gaits that is the problem that we were bringing up not "omg those dogs must have horrid health issues in the back end" ect.


----------



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

martemchik said:


> You claimed the written standard was changed by the kennel clubs...I'd like to know which kennel clubs and what exactly they changed.
> 
> And for what its worth their backs are STRAIGHT...they're just not PARALLEL to the ground. This is the biggest thing that people find confusing...a straight line can be straight in any direction...but you guys always confuse straight with parallel to the ground...two different things. And no where in the standard is anything mentioned about the back being parallel to the ground.


Well considering its mainly SL GSDs in the ring and its judges judging them and all have the slope in the back end that is where I am getting that from, so its not written down anywhere (I apologize) but one would think that there had to be some unwritten rule if ALL of the SL GSDs show this (again JMOP) and no I do not own a SL and no I never plan to show a dog or anything like that this is just from what I see so sorry if I am wrong.


----------



## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

All breed clubs are supposed to have judges' education materials. Sometimes you can find it on their website. Here is the one from the GSDCA.
Educational Videos
Judges are supposed to look at this and learn.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Sprout said:


> Here's Misha barking at my nieces as the kick their feet in the pool. They think it's funny because she gets bent over it! And so do I. lol
> 
> The pic shows pretty good side view.
> View attachment 77242


Ours looks the same!!! and same short tail!


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Neko said:


> Ours looks the same!!! and same short tail!


Actually she has a long tail Neko. It's curled to the side up high in this pic.
Have others in my photo album that show the length.

Thanks Flyway. Very helpful.


----------



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I get the opposite remark with my working line dog. When I walk him people will ask "what type of German Shepherd is he?" and once when I walked him with my neighbor's GSD, someone assumed that he was younger because he looked "perkier" (which is odd because my neighbor's GSD is a beautifully moderate dog). Many people comment on how strong, healthy, and great he looks and they will occasionally mention how nice it is to see a dog "without that slope and weak back legs". 

The dog they're talking about? Right here



















What do you know, he does have a slope to his topline  

For the record, here's the same dog: http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8339/8222871400_dc9a24bf77_b.jpg

Your girl looks fine to me.



martemchik said:


> What kennel clubs changed the standard? I'm pretty sure all the standards are the same...its the interpretation that is different.
> 
> Usually interpreted by the judge...who although is certified or whatever through a kennel club, usually has their own opinions about the breed and the standard which they will value over others.


:thumbup:



martemchik said:


> I have a WL dog with a straighter back and more regular dog/upright stance. You can't imagine how many people are now in the "know" and have come up to me to praise me for the fact that his back end looks normal. They go into how the other dogs look handicapped and their hips are garbage...blah blah blah. I usually take the time to explain to them that it has nothing to do with the hips and all about the angulation in the leg joints.
> 
> There has been a recent "return" to a more normal dog...many breeders just went too far with the angulation.





martemchik said:


> And for what its worth their backs are STRAIGHT...they're just not PARALLEL to the ground. This is the biggest thing that people find confusing...a straight line can be straight in any direction...but you guys always confuse straight with parallel to the ground...two different things. And no where in the standard is anything mentioned about the back being parallel to the ground.


and :thumbup: once again! Agree with everything you have said, and this has been my experience as well.



mandiah89 said:


> Show me one GSD that has one Best of Breed or Best in show that has a straight back... its not even just based on a judges interpretation, that is how a SL GSD is suppose to look like I dont think I have ever seen a WL GSD with a straight back and little to no slope in the back end in shows.


This dog took a 4 point major at a LARGE all breed show that I was at a few months back. I saw this dog in person and spent over an hour chatting with his handler and breeder and petting him. 










Please note, this is not my picture or my dog, and I am only using this as an excellent example of a moderate dog being rewarded in the show ring.


----------



## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Rei said:


> This dog took a 4 point major at a LARGE all breed show that I was at a few months back. I saw this dog in person and spent over an hour chatting with his handler and breeder and petting him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a lovely dog :wub:


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Remember...a show is a limited presentation of the breed with ONE person making the judgement on which dog matches the standard. So at an all breed show...a dog might go up against a bunch of "moderate" dogs and win because it was the best THAT day. Then if a more angulated, or a taller, or a bigger chested, or a flatter muzzled dog joins that group the next day...and the judge likes the GSD to look like that...that dog will take the prize.

Usually you must really focus on who is complimenting/criticizing your dog. I love getting comments about his top line and all that, but I once showed in a UKC show where the judge was telling me all about how great it is to see a utilitarian GSD and not the sloped one. She clearly had no idea what the standard was and was just going off of what she liked (I was the only GSD in the show). I know for a fact my boy doesn't have the best movement and angulation. He has a very short rear...but I could care less...as its mostly obedience and agility for me anyways! And he's second to none when it comes to drive for that...


----------



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

What people can't grasp is these dogs are STACKED to accentuate certain features!!!!!!!!!! My dog Gavin has a nice topline, but yes, when he is stacked it is exagerated, just like my Tennessee Walkers will stand parked out in the show ring, they certainly don't do that in the turn out ring, or my Arabians don't stand with one back leg standing back and their necks up and arched at liberty, they are TRAINED to stand like that for conformation shows, models don't sway down the sidewalk either!!!!


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Your Gavin is absolutely gorgeous. All take note!


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

You guys are killing me with this "sloping" back, "straight" back business. 

My ASL dogs have good toplines. Straight as can be. When they are correctly stacked IN THE SHOW RING (with both front legs underneath them, and one back leg forward, and the other back leg with the hock straight up and down), this creates the look of the "slope". Their toplines are still straight. They just aren't parallel to the ground while IN A STACK.

My dogs do not slink around with their butts on the ground. When they stand naturally, they don't "slope". You can dislike their "weird back ends" all you want, but seriously get your terminology straight.

Here's a collage of Carly (top photos) and Sage (bottom photos). Show photos, and then just standing around - Sage was still a puppy in that bottom one. 





standing stacked collage by KarmicWhimsy, on Flickr


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

larhage said:


> what people can't grasp is these dogs are stacked to accentuate certain features!!!!!!!!!! My dog gavin has a nice topline, but yes, when he is stacked it is exagerated, just like my tennessee walkers will stand parked out in the show ring, they certainly don't do that in the turn out ring, or my arabians don't stand with one back leg standing back and their necks up and arched at liberty, they are trained to stand like that for conformation shows, models don't sway down the sidewalk either!!!!


thank you!


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for that post, dogfaeries -- seeing the pictures side-by-side like that is so helpful to me!

Lots of lovely dogs on this page.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

dogfaeries said:


> thank you!


Yeah, there's alot of hog wash in this thread


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

hackels up, barking at children splashing water. i'm not sure
if that's funny.



Sprout said:


> Here's Misha barking at my nieces as the kick their feet in the pool. They think it's funny because she gets bent over it! And so do I. lol
> 
> The pic shows pretty good side view.
> View attachment 77242


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

he looks like my dog or my dog looks like him. :crazy:



Courtney said:


> Your Gavin is absolutely gorgeous. All take note!


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Five months old and loves those girls like nothing else.
Her hackles are up because the splashing and kicking confuse the heck out of her.
No offense but 23 years of training dogs I can assure you this pup is anything but aggressive!


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Merciel said:


> Thanks for that post, dogfaeries -- seeing the pictures side-by-side like that is so helpful to me!
> 
> Lots of lovely dogs on this page.



I like visual aids. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My dog had a low speed wobble. She seems to have grown out of it. Her dad has the same thing but hes ofa good.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my dog has a roach. i've been asked is there something wrong
with his legs and his back.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

mandiah89 said:


> Sorry in my opinion even a GSD should not have the gait and lower back end that some of the extreme showlines produce... it looks freakish and unnatural. That is NOT how the GSD is SUPPOSED to be the working line GSD with the straight back is how a GSD is suppose to gait and look in the back end, the Kennel clubs made these freakish standards that are so far off from what the original GSD was bred to look like/gait.
> 
> 
> Sorry to all those Show line GSD lovers out there but that is JMHO!


I agree some show lines can be over angulated. HOWEVER the breed, even working lines, are suppose to have a straight back (NOT to be confused with a level back parallel to the ground) that slants directly into a sloping croup with no break in the line (should be approximately 23 degrees to the ground if you would like to be technical). So in a natural trot they will have an elongated stride and apparent height difference in the low end. Where some ASL go wrong is they over-angulate beyond the 23 degrees, WGSL can have roached backs with an obvious break between the back and the loin (standard specifically states no break), however there are show lines that have a fine topline, and the mere fact of having a "sloping" back is not a fault to the breed. In fact a dog with a level back that had no slope would be faulty 

That comes directly from the SV standard

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Rei said:


> I get the opposite remark with my working line dog. When I walk him people will ask "what type of German Shepherd is he?" and once when I walked him with my neighbor's GSD, someone assumed that he was younger because he looked "perkier" (which is odd because my neighbor's GSD is a beautifully moderate dog). Many people comment on how strong, healthy, and great he looks and they will occasionally mention how nice it is to see a dog "without that slope and weak back legs".
> 
> The dog they're talking about? Right here
> 
> ...


Although the winning dog lacks a preferred masculin head imo its a VERY good looking dog. And BOTH these dogs show nice toplines. Especially in the natural stance. The backs are STRAIGHT, not swayed or roached, and there is an obvious but still slight slant downwards through the croup. THAT is how the breed is suppose to look. The elongated stride allows for a more effortless gait that covers more ground with each step. Less energy exerted and more ground covered means a dog can go for longer distances. Same reason many great marathon runners usually have very long legs and are tall. It's all about a stamina effect. There is a very good reason these working dogs have that conformation standard. When it actually follows standard and isnt over exaggerated it adds obvious needed benefits to their working ability.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Great posts and explanation, Anubis_Star.



Anubis_Star said:


> Although the winning dog lacks a preferred masculin head imo its a VERY good looking dog.


It's mostly the picture - mouth closed, head turned the other way, shot from a distance  Like my dog, he takes better pictures close up and with his mouth open:


----------



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Trent..... swoon! Love him.

Sprout your dog looks like a nicely put together dog. Diana in Okla I bet I have seen you at a few shows.... Lovely dogs!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good post and presentation (snipped your pics for brevity but your boy... :wub: )

One addition and one question for AKC SL folks....

Addition to the topic of the thread: I had an ASL dog in the early 1980s and I did get a lot of comments about her being as one person said 'low rider'. I have not gotten those comments when out and about with Ilda in fact some people have said that she looks like the 'old fashioned' German Shepherds they remember growing up with/around. Which is sort-a funny when they are significantly younger then me and say that... 

General Question for ASL folks: REI posted a pic of a nice moderate dog. When I was at the AKC show a few weeks ago what struck me (and my friend who used to breed/show huskies) was the variation between GSDs. I'm sorry to say there were some dogs there with extreme angulation that to me look cow hocked as they moved away from us....AND.... there were dogs that were moderate, one I could have sworn was of DDR heritage. Ear sets were different too. 

The difference amongst the GSDs heading all into the same ring was pretty significant. Is this because many of ASL folks are moving away from the extreme angulation so we're witnessing the change via the different conformations at the same show?




Rei said:


> I<snipped>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Aw, thank you Kathy and Gwenhwyfair for the nice words on Trent!!

And a quick note before the conformation folks share their expertise: *Please* do not give any critique on the BOW dog I posted, he is not my dog. I met him at a show and he caught my eye because I had a great appreciation for his structure. I loved that he was being rewarded in the show ring and because someone here asked for an example, I provided one. That was my only intention in posting his picture  Thanks!



Gwenhwyfair said:


> General Question for ASL folks: REI posted a pic of a nice moderate dog. When I was at the AKC show a few weeks ago what struck me (and my friend who used to breed/show huskies) was the variation between GSDs. I'm sorry to say there were some dogs there with extreme angulation that to me look cow hocked as they moved away from us....AND.... there were dogs that were moderate, one I could have sworn was of DDR heritage. Ear sets were different too.


Funny you bring this up, because I had the exact same experience! At the show I went to in January, I saw some extreme, very loosely ligamented dogs that I did not like at all. But on the other hand, I also got to see and meet some very lovely moderate dogs that I liked quite a bit. _And_ I also saw a dog that was of DDR heritage (DDR x Czech)... but he wasn't being shown that day and belongs to a forum member so that probably doesn't count :rofl: 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> The difference amongst the GSDs heading all into the same ring was pretty significant. Is this because many of ASL folks are moving away from the extreme angulation so we're witnessing the change via the different conformations at the same show?


Would really love to hear thoughts on this as well! Great question.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

About 20 years ago I briefly had a show line pup but I was not educated and didn't know anything about show -working lines so I thought it was good to get a pup from only champion lines. It was a disaster. She couldn't stand up while I drove the car or she would fall over. Actually someone asked me if she had had an accident because of the way she moved. 
I got smarter and have now a nice sturdy working dog with awesome temperament. I know this topic is covered many times but I hate what they have done to the breed in the shows. It is sad that people do not recognize my dog as a GSD.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah it's a well worn topic, I'd only point out that GSDs as a breed are all over the place conformationally, within some show AND working lines. Some working lines really look more like Mali's structurally to me. 

I wouldn't let what people say bug you though. Most people aren't that into dogs and won't go beyond the basic rin tin tin stereo type and you know, IMHO sometimes that's a good thing. 

btw my ASL didn't have any health problems related to hips/structure. She did have severe allergies after we moved from the north to FL though. She was a very nice companion which was all I wanted at the time and I still miss her some 25 years on now....



wolfy dog said:


> About 20 years ago I briefly had a show line pup but I was not educated and didn't know anything about show -working lines so I thought it was good to get a pup from only champion lines. It was a disaster. She couldn't stand up while I drove the car or she would fall over. Actually someone asked me if she had had an accident because of the way she moved.
> I got smarter and have now a nice sturdy working dog with awesome temperament. I know this topic is covered many times but I hate what they have done to the breed in the shows. It is sad that people do not recognize my dog as a GSD.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> ...I hate what they have done to the breed...


Wolfy dog, I had to quote that line, because that was the exact phrase someone said to me last year while we were discussing GSDs. The comment was made by someone who claimed to be a GSD breeder. He was complimenting me on my gorgeous puppy, and then that line came out of his mouth. You should have seen the look on his face when I replied, "My puppy is from show lines." He was confused, lol.

From my understanding, and reading threads here, the overly angulated look was very popular for show the 70s. That was a long time ago! Now I just figure that if someone really doesn't want any angulation at all, maybe a smooth coated Collie would be a better choice, lol?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

That's the problem...so many people make these comments and haven't even been to an AKC show in the last 10 years, or in the last 2 years, or last year...

Who knows what kind of dogs they grew up with? If you grew up around all WL lines then yeah...you'll think a SL GSD looks weird. But if you grew up around SL dogs...then a WL looks weird to you. I've had GSD owners ask me what my boy is mixed with because they've never seen/heard of a sable GSD! They're OWNERS!!! and they have no idea the dog comes in more than just black/tan.

I spoke with an airedale breeder a little while ago, I guess the guy used to breed GSD back in the day but left the breed because the "sloped backs started giving the dogs terrible hips and they cared too much about health to breed an unhealthy breed." He was a BREEDER!!! and had no idea the angulation of the back has nothing to do with the hips!!!

There are three kinds of dog people I've met...those that don't care what dog they have as long as its a great companion, those that show/trial/train/study like no tomorrow and know something, and those that show/trial/train/breed and think they know something (but they don't know anything).


----------

