# Choosing an ethical but not top dollar breeder



## New Pup (Dec 19, 2012)

I am in AR and looking for a breeder and there are a couple that look good but don't charge that $1500+ range a lot people on this site expect (honestly I would rather pay ~700). I'm not sure how to evaluate the breeder or stud and dam. They have their AKC numbers, is there anything to look for specifically? Should they have certain health test documentation? I don't want to post the litter I am considering for people to publicly judge them but if anyone is interested in helping out a somewhat newbie evaluate the dogs send me a PM. Thanks everyone!


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Take the AKC reg numbers and plug them into the advanced search feature on the OFA website and see what testing has been done. Check the CHIC website to see the minimum required testing.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Pm me the details if you want


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

$1500 is a reasonable price for a good pup but you have to make sure it is from a good breeder. $700.00 sounds more like CL, at least in our area.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

You are very very very unlikely to get a puppy from a reputable breeder for $700.00. Reputable breeders put a lot of time and money into testing their dogs prior to breeding. That means paying for health testing as well as training and competitions. Most likely aren't even turning a profit even at $1500 once you figure in the cost of feeding, transporting to and from competitions, hotel fees, ect.... A reputable breeder will also provide lifelong support and be their to answer questions, give advice, ect... 

If you can't afford to purchase from a reputable breeder then I'd suggest adopting from a rescue. Please don't support BYB simply interested in making money selling pups. Adopting will give you the same sort of quality you'd be getting from a BYB, but you wouldn't be supporting their poor breeding practices.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

$700 is not going to get you proven and quality lines.....even minimally credentialed animals are being bred and offspring sold in the 1200-1500 range, more credentials more money....more proof of breeder's animals being able to attain any kind of credentials - more money....

At $700 at least insist that even dogs with no titles or certifications in performance are health tested.....get the AKC names of the parents and go to

www.ofa.org

do an advanced search, put in part of the name, choose the breed and search ......if the dog has an actual kennel name....like

Wolfstraum
Wildhaus
Mittlewest
Traumwolfen

then use that - actually use these and you will see the types of results you get from breeders who do health test....there will be some from each....then you look at an individual record and can see related dogs

Many breeders who concentrate on European lines do their hip certifications in Germany - I have been doing mine there but some in each litter are still OFA as well...

I also suggest looking at rescue rather than Backyard breeding people, or saving up and buying quality


Lee


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Do folks here know of any responsible breeders in Arkansas that the OP could use for comparison? Rescues?


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

You will not be able to get PM's until you have posted a certain number of times... so asking for PM's probably will not work in this instance. 

Seriously doubt that you will find a reputable breeder selling puppies for $700. Most at a minimum are $1500 and up. Those will be breeders that are doing all the necessary health testing as well as titling their dogs in some venue, or multiple venues to prove stable nerves, temperament and drives. Again, you can look up some health information through OFA, but some submit their xray's to Germany for the SV A Stamp program, which will not show up on OFA's site. 

One thing I didn't see, is what type of puppy are you wanting, what do you want to do with the puppy? That will be the first step in finding a reputable breeder. Whether you want a pet or a competitive working dog, you still need to consider the basic requirements from a breeder first.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I won't post the breeder that the OP sent, but they are Mostly American line dogs with no OFA and almost no titles in the pedigree. They look nice though.

OP wants a companion for family and hiking.

Have you visited the parents/breeder ?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

so he still wants a stable dog wiht decent structure so he can avoid health/structural problems, with decent temperament so the dog is not a spaz out in public.....ie a responsible breeder


Lee


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

My .02 after buying our first GSD- 

When we first started our GSD search, we knew nothing about reputable breeders, hip/elbow certification, IPO titles etc. But we did know that the vet costs and emotional tolls of having a part of our family suffer from genetic disorders would make the purchase price irrelevant. I was also very concerned about getting a GSD with a bad temperament and wanted to stack the odds in our favor. We paid a few thousand more than I would have wanted, but do not regret the price for a second.

You also need to keep in mind that the first year of any puppies life can be rather expensive regardless of how much you pay for it. I'd guess we are close to two thousand in expenses and have not had any out of the normal problems. Actually probably more than that if you count training and food.

I'd guess a rescue that was past the expensive puppy stage would be much smarter $$ wise.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You can get very nice dogs from rescue-


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## cheffjapman (Jun 8, 2017)

holland said:


> You can get very nice dogs from rescue-


General came from the county pound. $65!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well folks, you can't have it both ways. Those dogs in the rescue come from somewhere. Probably most come from inexperienced breeders without health certificates or titles. 

The thing is, the puppy is a living creature, and yes, the more credentials the breeding pair has, the more money the breeder can legitimately require. But that doesn't mean that people charging 2500-3000 or more are any better than those charging $1500 or even less. You still have to do the work.

You have to find a breeder you feel confident with. Sometimes you can find a breeder who takes good care of their dogs, raises puppies properly, and does not charge as much. 

The thing is, you have to decide what corners you are willing to sacrifice. Are you willing to pay $500 less if the sire and dam are not titled? Are you willing to take your chances without the OFAs or Penn Hip, to get a cheaper price?

At the end of the day, a pet needs to be stable -- first. That is, it is too much of a liability to have a dog that is going to bite people for no reasonable reason. So, temperament is super important. This does not mean the breeding dogs need titles. Titles do not transfer to the puppies. But if the dogs do not have titles, you need to have some way to verify that the dam and sire have good temperaments. 

Health, yes, what is the minimum. Everyone who calls asks about hips. HD is a problem in the breed, but not one of the worse problems. Bloat, MegaE, EPI, epilepsy-- these and so many other things will cause you more trouble as an owner than most HD will cost you. But HD and ED are the two things most people are testing for and most people ask about. On the other hand, there are genetic tests for von Wilbrand's disease, Cardiac, Thyroid, Cerf (eyes), and DM. Not really that many other things. So it comes down to whether or not you trust your breeder. And the more health screenings the dog has passed, the more the breeder might legitimately charge, because the tests all cost money.

But, there are nice dogs in rescue. Yeah, the reason why going the rescue route is better than buying a cheap dog, is because you don't want to encourage bad breeding practices by paying out half what the good breeders are charging to a bad breeder. Because without spending the money to treat the dogs good, feed good food, take them to the vet, do some health checks, take them to training, title them, and so forth, without that, at half price, especially if they breed twice as many litters, getting the puppies into homes quicker, because everyone is willing to pay their price, they are making money where the better breeders charging larger prices are often losing money.

Not everyone charging less is a scoundrel. Just like, not everyone charging more is reputable. They aren't. So, it is really case by case. You have to go in with your eyes open.

I'd say talk to the breeder and get a feel for them. But some people are natural salesmen. It doesn't mean that their product is better than another's. They just know how to put forth the right catch phrases and sound knowledgeable. 

It's a funny thing. No one wants to pay $1500 for a puppy. When I was working at the Event Center, I saw people dump $300 or $500 for a night's drinking. I saw booze for a wedding cost thousands of dollars. One night's drinking. The next day, they will take home their half-filled bottles and get a small refund for the stuff that wasn't opened. $10,000, between the hall and the booze. For one night. Nothing left over but memories and pictures. But pay $1500 for a dog that might live with you for 12 or 14 years? Ridiculous! I think we have our priorities wrong sometimes. 

The higher price tag doesn't ensure you a healthy dog. They are living critters. Hopefully, if a breeder is breeding toward a goal, and temperament and health are first on their list, the chances are better at having a healthier puppy, than if people are breeding just to make puppies.


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## New Pup (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks for all the input. I'm not trying to save money because I cannot afford it, it is just how I always evaluate purchases. I want a shepherd to be a good family companion, run, hike, and camp with us. We have family and friends that like to visit and backpack with us, and their dogs, so I'd like a shepherd that is tolerant of friends and their dogs. I am not interested in training competitions or shows so I kind of down played the title history. I realize now a title history just helps the tilt the odds of getting a dog of good temperament in your favor. 

The breeders have a site that make all the right claims. They breed for temperament and health not ascetics. They do it because they love the breed and enjoy the hobby, not to make money. Etc etc. But one of the people who pmed me pointed out that the sire is 11 months old, and it would be considered unethical to breed such a young dog because his genetic health and temperament are not apparent yet because he is not an adult. This really gives me second doubts about the dog, I'm considering not even driving out of my way to meet the breeders and the dogs. On that note can you get a good feel for the temperament of female when she is 4 weeks pregnant? 

I guess I should research rescue dogs as that was a common suggestion. I love the thought of helping out a dog in need but in my experience, rescue dogs have their quirks. I took in a stray that is sweet but **** near impossible to train. My mom has rescue miniature schnauzers and the poor things are so traumatized you can't take them anywhere around strangers. I'd hate to gamble and have a 80 lb + dog with possibly dangerous quirks. Plus I like the idea of raising the dog from early puppy stage and developing a bond. I guess I will keep looking and talk it over with the wife if we want to invest $1500 on a dog that still doesn't guarantee it will be better than the $150 craigslist dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

using an 11 month old dog for any type of breeding is not responsible, you can't judge temperament or health , he is in fact still a puppy..

With that, another poster also stated the breeder had no health clearances ? You can't get hip/elbow clearances via ofa on an 11 mth old dog..

So, my suggestion, ASK here for referrals in your area..Be prepared to save up a tad more money and get a puppy that is out of health tested parents at the bare minimum.While it won't guarantee a healthy puppy it will stack the odds in your favor of getting a healthy puppy..Are there any dog shows in your area? GO check them out see if you find anything you like and ask where they got the dog..Call your local vet and ask if they have any clients they can refer you to for a nice gsd. 

Don't settle, like I said bare minimum is health testing parents and good temperaments..meet both parents IF you can ...alot can be learned from meeting the mother as puppies spend the most time with them..Don't believe everything you read on the net..Do your homework and don't settle..
Good luck


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

IMHO, you're investing in the breeder as much as you are the dog. If your breeder genuinely cares, they are very aware of what they are producing - both good and bad. They are honest and they are an invaluable resource throughout your ownership journey. They also have no problem turning your money away because the dog always comes before the sale. The number is just a way to either be competitive with other breeders or recoup some of the cost of bringing a healthy litter into the world. 

A craigslist dog could be healthy and balanced. But you'll never know or have a guarantee. Or a resource if they're not. Because once the money is handed over, that breeder could care less about you and the dog. An ethical breeder keeps tabs, is there for you whenever you need them, and is always ready to help. 

Your breeder is your guarantee, not the price tag.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Solamar said:


> My .02 after buying our first GSD-
> 
> When we first started our GSD search, we knew nothing about reputable breeders, hip/elbow certification, IPO titles etc. But we did know that the vet costs and emotional tolls of having a part of our family suffer from genetic disorders would make the purchase price irrelevant. I was also very concerned about getting a GSD with a bad temperament and wanted to stack the odds in our favor. We paid a few thousand more than I would have wanted, but do not regret the price for a second.
> 
> ...


Can you do a general breakdown on these costs, like:
3 well-puppy-vists ............................................................. $300
Crate....................................................................................$100
Toys......................................................................................$150
Collar/leash...........................................................................$35


Just curious.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Do folks here know of any responsible breeders in Arkansas that the OP could use for comparison? Rescues?


I did ask for them a few posts back...anyone?


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## MidwestFarmersDaughter (Aug 13, 2017)

selzer said:


> Can you do a general breakdown on these costs, like:
> 3 well-puppy-vists ............................................................. $300
> Crate....................................................................................$100
> Toys......................................................................................$150
> ...


If it's helpful, here's a breakdown of our puppy costs so far (he's currently six months old): 

Puppy visits and vaccines: $350 total 

Puppy classes: $160/class (we’ve done two so far)

Flea/tick and heartworm prevention: $40/month

Crates: about $100 each (we purchased one for home and one for where the pup stays sometimes while I’m at work)

Daycare: $240/month ($28/day -- for days when things are crazy at work) 

Food: we feed Fromm supplemented with Primal freeze-dried raw, THK bone broth, and occasional raw eggs – we have multiple dogs, but I’m guessing it totals about $50/month for just the pup? 

Emergency expenses: so far, we’re at $1400+ for the pup’s three fractured metacarpals…

Pet insurance: $50/month (wish we’d had this when he fractured his paw!)

Plus all those miscellaneous expenses: flat collar, martingale collar, 6’ leash, 30’ leash, stainless steel bowls, training treats, beds, toys, and chews to occupy those sharp teeth (bullysticks @ $8/stick, fish skins @ $12/pack, raw frozen marrow bones @ $3/bone; split antlers @ $20/antler; unfortunately he’s never liked Nylabones or Kongs… alas!)


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> I'd hate to gamble and have a 80 lb + dog with possibly dangerous quirks. Plus I like the idea of raising the dog from early puppy stage and developing a bond. I guess I will keep looking and talk it over with the wife if we want to invest $1500 on a dog that still doesn't guarantee it will be better than the $150 craigslist dog.


This is EXACTLY what you're gambling on with a BYB, or an unethical breeder. Rescues do sometimes come with issues. But in my experience, if you treat them with respect and handle the dog as it needs to be handled, it's less work than getting a puppy (no offense puppies!).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MidwestFarmersDaughter said:


> If it's helpful, here's a breakdown of our puppy costs so far (he's currently six months old):
> 
> Puppy visits and vaccines: $350 total
> 
> ...


I think Karma was my expensive pup. I stepped on her toe during training and broke it, but that didn't cost much more than two or three hundred. Then getting in to the rat poison, that was another $150 or so. 

In NC, I suppose flea/tick and heartworm would be necessary. I used to do all that, but then I decided that I didn't like the idea of pumping pesticides into my dogs as a preventative measure. If I see a flea, I will treat the lot of them for 2-3 months. And then stop again. Until then, I save $40/mo/dog. It used to be $12/month for revolution. But when you multiply that by 15 it's a pretty penny, about $180. Considering I pay about $38/bag for dog food and 12 bags per month, what, $456, add the 180 for preventives, and I have a one-way ticket to the poor house, LOL. This year it was fly spray and ointment. 

7 months ago I did purchase a puppy, and other than some vaccines/office visits, AKC paperwork and some toys, he hasn't really costed that much beyond the purchase price. Maybe $500 tops, which included puppy classes, and paper towels to clean up after his car-sickness. But I am not counting food. To me that's just a given.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

"It's a funny thing. No one wants to pay $1500 for a puppy. When I was working at the Event Center, I saw people dump $300 or $500 for a night's drinking. I saw booze for a wedding cost thousands of dollars. One night's drinking. The next day, they will take home their half-filled bottles and get a small refund for the stuff that wasn't opened. $10,000, between the hall and the booze. For one night. Nothing left over but memories and pictures. But pay $1500 for a dog that might live with you for 12 or 14 years? Ridiculous! I think we have our priorities wrong sometimes. "

Very good point, I often think the same thing, how ridiculous it is for people to blow money on such temporary things but spend $1000+ on a puppy, no way! My advice would be to research as much as you can about GSDs and look up a lot of different breeders. Buying a puppy in general is a gamble, not even the best breeder can guarantee perfect health or temperament but they are doing their best to better the breed because they actually care about the breed and what it really is. Not just someone with a pretty male and female dog looking to make a buck without any thought or care passed making a profit. 

For $700 you are probably not going to get a puppy from a responsible breeder. Cheaper is not better when it comes to dogs. At a minimum the dogs should have hip/elbow ratings from OFA or SV and the breeder should do something with their dogs. Some kind of training outside of the home to prove that the parents have the ability to function outside of their comfort zone.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

SOMETIMES, you can find someone who is building their reputation or exploring a breeding pair that may give you a better price for their liter... That being said, usually, those breeders are extremely careful about whom they sell the discounted dog to because they believe in their breeding and want to get the pups out titled or certified etc to 'prove' out the particular coupling/breeding pair...

I have gotten great dogs for $800... and I got a loony toons for $1,200.. My current SAR dog was $700 and came from proven lineage tested and certified in HRD and Air scent (father was a great trailer too). My next pup will come from a breeder I have been studying for a long time and works her dogs etc.. I will pay $1,800... That is a very hard price for me as I am on a fixed income and do SAR, which as many of you know is EXPENSIVE and 100% volunteer.. There are no problems with my $700 girl, she is healthy, strong, smart and highly capable (that breeder is focusing on KNPV lines and not GSD's anymore). I know my it is much more expensive to get a pup from the other breeder, but I know the dedication and love, knowledge, etc put into each breeding, and each pup as they grow... This new pup will be a SAR dog as well and I need to know the drive, level head, health, intelligence etc is there..

Selzer is correct that each pup is a living thing and thus subject to its DNA and originality, but the better the planning into the breeding, usually the better the outcome of each pup in the given liter.... I sure do wish it weren't so expensive for a working pup.. especially when doing a volunteer service that is so freaking expensive, lol... But, alas, it is....


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Here's the national listing of German Shepherd rescues:
RESCUE LISTINGS BY STATE - The American German Shepherd Rescue Association, Inc.

However, in AR, if you don't mind driving to the Dallas area, I would contact Texas Star Rescue in Longview. They're all-breed, but they've got knowledgeable GSD people in the rescue who pull lots of good GSDs out of Louisiana shelters.


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

selzer said:


> Can you do a general breakdown on these costs, like:
> 3 well-puppy-vists ............................................................. $300
> Crate....................................................................................$100
> Toys......................................................................................$150
> ...



Midwestfarmesdaughters list is right in line with what we have experienced. Add ~$200 for Coccidia, ~$600 for Giardia (multiple relapses with multiple re-tests and treatments), ~$600 for ER trip from eating Bougainvillea flowers. Knock on wood, most of that is behind us now. I haven't priced it out yet, but we are waiting until she is about two for a spay and I understand the price continues to climb as the dog gets older ($500+?).


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I'll probably get a lot of criticism for saying this but price and breeders testing means absolutely nothing.... I acquired my first shepherd from a BYB and he was sick , had seizures, skin allergies, all sorts of stuff. Second Shepherd came from a VERY good breeder, his dad was a schutzhund 3, and they were also involved in service dog work. The lady now raises service dogs for a living and no longer sells to the general public. We got unlucky and got the sick pup who died young of an aggressive cancer. Our third pup another reputable breeder... sickest dog I've ever seen in my life. He's only 8 months old and we've spent something like $5,000 on vet bills and we paid nearly $2000 for him!!! We wished we had just bought a BYB dog then we would have had that extra $2000 to put to vet bills if we needed it. All these breeders have "guarantees" but they stipulate if you get a sick puppy you can either return it for a new puppy or return it and get your money back. IM SORRY but my dog is FAMILY, not a pair of shoes.... i will not return a poor sick pup that needs my help and a breeder certainly won't spent $5000 on a sick dog... they would probably euthanize it. Some of the most stable and good looking shepherds I have seen have been back yard bred. And I've seen my share of nutters come out of planned breeding. Health wise I think it's just luck of the draw. I doubt we will be going to breeder route again... just my honest opinion ?.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'll probably get a lot of criticism for saying this but price and breeders testing means absolutely nothing.... I acquired my first shepherd from a BYB and he was sick , had seizures, skin allergies, all sorts of stuff. Second Shepherd came from a VERY good breeder, his dad was a schutzhund 3, and they were also involved in service dog work. The lady now raises service dogs for a living and no longer sells to the general public. We got unlucky and got the sick pup who died young of an aggressive cancer. Our third pup another reputable breeder... sickest dog I've ever seen in my life. He's only 8 months old and we've spent something like $5,000 on vet bills and we paid nearly $2000 for him!!! We wished we had just bought a BYB dog then we would have had that extra $2000 to put to vet bills if we needed it. All these breeders have "guarantees" but they stipulate if you get a sick puppy you can either return it for a new puppy or return it and get your money back. IM SORRY but my dog is FAMILY, not a pair of shoes.... i will not return a poor sick pup that needs my help and a breeder certainly won't spent $5000 on a sick dog... they would probably euthanize it. Some of the most stable and good looking shepherds I have seen have been back yard bred. And I've seen my share of nutters come out of planned breeding. Health wise I think it's just luck of the draw. I doubt we will be going to breeder route again... just my honest opinion ?.




I would question the health testing and understanding of what was being produced by those breeders then. Did any other dogs have a history of cancer in the line? Did other pups die early? 

Also, did they title the dog themselves? Or did they just ride on the accomplishments of another handler/breeder? These are all important questions. Seeing that a breeder titles their own dogs, health checks their own dogs, and can honestly inform you of any health concerns is important. They aren't just boxes you tick and voila - a perfect dog comes out. There has to be critical thinking on the owner's part too.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Femfa said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > I'll probably get a lot of criticism for saying this but price and breeders testing means absolutely nothing.... I acquired my first shepherd from a BYB and he was sick , had seizures, skin allergies, all sorts of stuff. Second Shepherd came from a VERY good breeder, his dad was a schutzhund 3, and they were also involved in service dog work. The lady now raises service dogs for a living and no longer sells to the general public. We got unlucky and got the sick pup who died young of an aggressive cancer. Our third pup another reputable breeder... sickest dog I've ever seen in my life. He's only 8 months old and we've spent something like $5,000 on vet bills and we paid nearly $2000 for him!!! We wished we had just bought a BYB dog then we would have had that extra $2000 to put to vet bills if we needed it. All these breeders have "guarantees" but they stipulate if you get a sick puppy you can either return it for a new puppy or return it and get your money back. IM SORRY but my dog is FAMILY, not a pair of shoes.... i will not return a poor sick pup that needs my help and a breeder certainly won't spent $5000 on a sick dog... they would probably euthanize it. Some of the most stable and good looking shepherds I have seen have been back yard bred. And I've seen my share of nutters come out of planned breeding. Health wise I think it's just luck of the draw. I doubt we will be going to breeder route again... just my honest opinion ?.
> ...


None of the others had cancer, we just got sadly very unlucky. Saw his brother still alive the other day. He was a great dog. Pretty sure they titled him themselves, like I said good people good breeders... just life happens. We did minimal vaccinations, fed him a clean organic best food we could buy, my mom didn't even believe in giving heartworm prevention because of all the chemicals.... he was perfectly healthy otherwise. I think the most important thing to take from all this is to be prepared to spend a lot of money on your dog... way more than you thought you would!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If you're willing to get an 1-2 year old dog rather than a puppy, I'd go to a GSD-specific rescue or just the pound. You're in Arkansas, and my wonderful GSD was a stray in Southern Illinois, just across the border. Lots of good dogs in that area get dumped for no fault of the dog. Extremely stable temperament, no health issues. You'll be able to know the dog's temperament at a year, and you can even do x-ray prelims for hips/elbows. 

My adopted GSD never had any super expensive vet bills and absolutely no temperament or behavioral challenges- with the correct drive for nosework/SAR, and strong herding instinct. Really wonderful dog, and I'd go back to Shawnee if I could find another like her!


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Our first shepherd we bought from an ad, she would have fitted your criteria for the sort of dog you are looking for, camping, hiking, family dog etc. Except she cost us a fortune in vet's bills because she had problems with her stomach. 

Our second dog was from a reputable breeder. She was incredibly healthy and our biggest vet bill was at the end when she was 11. But she wasn't perfect.

My current dog is from a rescue. They work really hard to set you up with the right dog (they steered me away from a dog I liked the look of ) and make it a condition that if it doesn't work out, you return the dog to them. And they are always there to offer advice if you need it. Have no idea of what future health problems she might have but that is the risk I took and so far so good.

If i was getting another Shepherd, I would definitely pay for a reputable breeder or source a really good rescue.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm in North Central Arkansas and even though prices are a bit lower in this state, you're not going to find many good breeders charging below the $1000.  Some might go to $900 but that's about it. 
A lot will depend on what exactly you are looking for besides a pet, working or showlines? How far are you willing to drive (distance and time-wise)?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

there is also the 'bar set' .
What one person thinks is great, another may find lacking.
I would not do my research in looking for a puppy by posting on web or fb pages, but learn about the dogs in the training/trialing venues that I am interested in. There are events all the time and I would invest in travel to clubs and get to know dogs, which in turn leads to breeder recommendations. I would also study lines, and learn more about pedigrees, etc while looking for my next puppy. (as I keep socking away money to pay for puppy and the vetting, emergency fund, equipment......)

Many breeders have longevity in their foundation lines, and are transparent enough to discern if they are worth investing in. 
Even for someone new into breeding, knowing what to ask, and what to look for, you can find some newer breeders doing it right.
And plenty doing it for their ego or their bank account.

If a person is looking at classified ads or asks on sale pages for puppies, they will get basically the bottom of the bar set. 
I see it all the time, the BYB's come out in swarms when someone asks about puppies.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'll probably get a lot of criticism for saying this but price and breeders testing means absolutely nothing.... I acquired my first shepherd from a BYB and he was sick , had seizures, skin allergies, all sorts of stuff. Second Shepherd came from a VERY good breeder, his dad was a schutzhund 3, and they were also involved in service dog work. The lady now raises service dogs for a living and no longer sells to the general public. We got unlucky and got the sick pup who died young of an aggressive cancer. Our third pup another reputable breeder... sickest dog I've ever seen in my life. He's only 8 months old and we've spent something like $5,000 on vet bills and we paid nearly $2000 for him!!! We wished we had just bought a BYB dog then we would have had that extra $2000 to put to vet bills if we needed it. All these breeders have "guarantees" but they stipulate if you get a sick puppy you can either return it for a new puppy or return it and get your money back. IM SORRY but my dog is FAMILY, not a pair of shoes.... i will not return a poor sick pup that needs my help and a breeder certainly won't spent $5000 on a sick dog... they would probably euthanize it. Some of the most stable and good looking shepherds I have seen have been back yard bred. And I've seen my share of nutters come out of planned breeding. Health wise I think it's just luck of the draw. I doubt we will be going to breeder route again... just my honest opinion ?.


I sympathize with your hard luck regarding health, but don't discount breeders over one aspect, albeit a very important one. Most byb's don't plan the pairings, they use whatever is avaiable whether or not they are agood match and temperament/drives can vary wildly because of it. So with this in mind, you might find a physically healthy byb dog there's also the chance you may not want to live with it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'll probably get a lot of criticism for saying this but price and breeders testing means absolutely nothing.... I acquired my first shepherd from a BYB and he was sick , had seizures, skin allergies, all sorts of stuff. Second Shepherd came from a VERY good breeder, his dad was a schutzhund 3, and they were also involved in service dog work. The lady now raises service dogs for a living and no longer sells to the general public. We got unlucky and got the sick pup who died young of an aggressive cancer. Our third pup another reputable breeder... sickest dog I've ever seen in my life. He's only 8 months old and we've spent something like $5,000 on vet bills and we paid nearly $2000 for him!!! We wished we had just bought a BYB dog then we would have had that extra $2000 to put to vet bills if we needed it. All these breeders have "guarantees" but they stipulate if you get a sick puppy you can either return it for a new puppy or return it and get your money back. IM SORRY but my dog is FAMILY, not a pair of shoes.... i will not return a poor sick pup that needs my help and a breeder certainly won't spent $5000 on a sick dog... they would probably euthanize it. Some of the most stable and good looking shepherds I have seen have been back yard bred. And I've seen my share of nutters come out of planned breeding. Health wise I think it's just luck of the draw. I doubt we will be going to breeder route again... just my honest opinion ?.


You're right. A breeder cannot stop cancer from happening. Sorry. No breeder deliberately breeds dogs with cancer, to produce dogs with cancer. Dogs get cancer, and it could be enviromental, and it could have a genetic component. 

I don't know if your chances are ANY better with a breeder than a BYB when it comes to cancer. And probably some other stuff. 

Breeders who do titles and health screenings prior to breeding may be feeding Purina Pro Plan or Orijen. We don't know. The breeder may be a fanatic about vaccines and pesticides on the dogs, and encourage the buyers not to spay/neuter early, not to use pesticides in the blood, not to over-do vaccines or not to do them at all. Or not. Usually, when the buyer walks out of the house with the puppy, everything the breeder talked about leeks right out of their ears. And when they walk into the vet's office, they just say, "Ok." We put down the important stuff in booklets, hoping that people are so excited about their puppy that they will read the stuff. But really, who are you going to listen too, the breeder who lives in a trailer, or the vet who has their license on the wall, a building and staff and equipment.

And there just is no guaranty that eliminating the preventative, long-acting pesticides, waiting to alter, minimizing vaccines, and feeding the better holistic foods will prevent cancer. It may, it may not. Unfortunately, we really do NOT _know_ everything there is to know about it. 

I know I am focused on what happens to a puppy after it leaves the breeder. But I am not blaming the puppy's owners. I just think that there are a lot of things that are done to puppies that may effect this. I got a dog that I lost at 4 years old, I got her back when she was 6 months old. She became quite ill, and we diagnosed her and we worked with her, and after 18 months, post-diagnosis, I did lose her. But when I got this dog back, the owners, between 8 weeks and 6 months spent 800+ dollars on well-puppy visits to the vet. They vaccinated her for everything under the sun. That did NOT include a spay. They used preventative stuff on her religiously. These are oral and topical(that works in the bloodstream for 4-6 weeks) pesticides/wormers. Can this stuff attack an already weak or incomplete immune system? I truly believe so. I think the owners were trying to be the best owners ever. I think their vet should lose his/her license.

That will never happen. 

When I hear that people are spending upwards to 2000 for a baby puppy's expenses, and the pup has not had any major illnesses, I get really worried. It sounds like the puppy in question did have some health concerns -- it wasn't just well-puppy visits. 

But yeah, even the best breeders might have a sick puppy. Maybe some of that is because of what is done to the puppy. But other puppies manage that regimen, so, the puppy is maybe defective? And maybe the puppy just got the right combo of genes and ended up with cancer. I think we all have cancer cells. I think that something sometimes triggers the cancer cells to get a move-on. Sometimes that is spaying and neutering. I think it throws the system out of balance and can speed up the aging process. Sometimes it is a generally weak immune system, that can be caused by constantly attacking the system with unnecessary vaccines and pesticides. I think that sometimes we inject our dogs, or our dogs ingest carcinogens by eating the wrong foods or having vaccines with mercury or other chemicals. 

Again, focusing on what happens after the dog goes to its new home. The thing is, it isn't a lack of care that causes some of this stuff, I think it is an abundance of caring sometimes. Maybe the best breeders are those that are x-raying their breeding stock too much and it is affecting the puppies (eggs), however contrary to what the vets say. 

Is this a good reason to go to a BYB though? When people say, you will get a sick puppy from a BYB, I usually say, maybe, maybe not. Going to a reputable breeder does NOT guaranty you a healthy puppy. Maybe you get your money back or a new puppy if the dog you got was not healthy. Maybe you have a breeder who can help you ask the right questions at the vet and help that diagnosis happen quicker. Maybe. But in the end, the only guaranty a breeder of any sort can make is that if the dog does not meet up with an accident or is put down for whatever reason, he will get some nasty sickness and succumb to it in the end. Breeders work hard to try to make that as late in life as possible, we try to produce healthy puppies. 

But the reason to go to a reputable breeder is not to net a puppy that has no faults or illnesses until it flops over and drops dead at 15.5 years. The reason to go to a reputable breeder is because we care about dogs. We want to encourage breeding practices that respect the breeding animals, and that attempt to reduce the number of issues while breeding toward a particular standard. We want to encourage knowledgeable breeders to continue to protect and promote our breed. At the same time we want to discourage people who breed haphazardly, who are not focussed on producing good health and temperament, who are not breeding toward any goals, toward producing the kind of dog we want to own. The only way to do this, is to not give them any money. Not even 1/2 or 1/4 what the better breeders are charging. It does not guaranty us a perfect dog. There are no perfect dogs (Quinn is a bitch so she can still be perfect,  ).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

New Pup said:


> I am in AR and looking for a breeder and there are a couple that look good but don't charge that $1500+ range a lot people on this site expect (honestly I would rather pay ~700). I'm not sure how to evaluate the breeder or stud and dam. They have their AKC numbers, is there anything to look for specifically? Should they have certain health test documentation? I don't want to post the litter I am considering for people to publicly judge them but if anyone is interested in helping out a somewhat newbie evaluate the dogs send me a PM. Thanks everyone!


I'd always rather pay less, but since almost any pure bred dog easily sells for 1500 or more, the buyer beware part of me would really question why someone is going to ask less then half that.


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