# People need to stop breeding!!



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Back yard breeding that is. I'm getting so irritated. I browse Craigslist for potential posts to flag or people who need real help. They are filled with pit bull, german shepherd and husky puppies. Every day. With pictures of parents chained up, moms with mastitis, puppies with bellies full of worms, selling at 4 weeks. It's awful. And guess what the shelters are full of? Pits, shepherds & huskies. If your dogs aren't registered, titled & simply amazing. DON'T BREED THEM. And stop leaving your unaltered female in the back yard with your unaltered male and acting shocked by your "surprise" litter of shepherd/lab/maltipoo mutts. 

Rant over. Had to get that out. Whew :/ 


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Why, are you surprised that this keeps happening? A close person to me gave me this sage advice after I neutered my boy. 
"Why didn't you send in his DNA and get him AKC cert to breed him make your money back?"
"Would you do that with your dogs?"
"People have offered and if someone paid me yes"
"Good thing they mandate a spay/neuter, idiot"

His dogs are absolute mutts from the pound. My supposed pure GSD is from a pet shop. Neither of us have any pedigree information not that it would matter.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks for flagging those CL ads. I do it too.

The worst of the worst was some moron who emailed me about A SHELTER DOG I was advertising to ask if she could pay double the shelter's adoption fee in order to adopt her without spaying, so that she could use her for breeding, since the dog was a pretty red-and-black with attractive coloring. My head nearly exploded. 

The second-worst was some "really good" local breeder (NOT) who pressured an older lady whose dog had just died tragically to pay $300 for an ultra-fearful 18-month-old dog that had been his runt, and thus gone unsold as a puppy, and had lived totally unsocialized in a outdoor pen, in the heat and humidity of South Louisiana -- he threatened the woman that if she didn't make a decision right way, he was going to sell that dog to another breeder who would make some money off her. The older lady felt like she had to pay the money to "rescue" this poor dog. She's had to put more time and money into its rehab than is required for the average shelter dog. She was, quite simply, ripped off. At least she spayed the dog though. I don't doubt that dog is better off with her, as she's a great owner; she sure did make it worth the breeder's worthwhile to continue these practices though.

And "Christmas Litters" -- one of my biggest pet peeves with local breeders who plan these litters to make a quick buck. Sell a cute fluffy puppy, without regard to who the recipient will be, because it's an emotional holiday gift--without a care in the world to the number of them who will land in shelters because the recipient doesn't want the dog. GRRRR.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Craigslist is great for some things, but it also makes my blood boil when I read the "pet" section. Sometimes I just have to stop myself from reading, for my own sanity. Just today someone posted this:

SIBERIAN HUSKY STUD

"PUREBRED SIBERIAN HUSKY
BLACK/WHITE WITH BLUE EYES
UPTD ON SHOTS
MICROCHIPPED 
HEALTHY AND PLAYFUL

STUD FEE: $100 INCLUDING 1 PICK FROM LITTER"


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You might want to re-word the title of this thread-maybe?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What you mean is, people need to stop buying.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I think you are ranting on the wrong forum. I would suspect that most if not all members here are responsible pet owners. I hear your message but I'm not in your target audience.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

jae said:


> Why, are you surprised that this keeps happening? A close person to me gave me this sage advice after I neutered my boy.
> "Why didn't you send in his DNA and get him AKC cert to breed him make your money back?"
> "Would you do that with your dogs?"
> "People have offered and if someone paid me yes"
> ...


This is why the "should I neuter/spay my animal" threads kill me on this forum. People start giving advice to not do it without any regard for who the person is that's asking. And their usual reasons for this is to make sure the dog fills out and then some unproven medical claims. No one thinks about the fact that although they are being responsible now, 2 years down the line someone might come up to them and ask them for a stud service, offer to pay $500 to $1000 for their beautiful shepherds to mate, and that person might just say yes. Sorry, even to me an easy $1000 paycheck where the only work done is by my dog sounds great, and if I didn't care as much as I do about the pet overpopulation problem it would be something that I would consider.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

pfitzpa1 said:


> I think you are ranting on the wrong forum. I would suspect that most if not all members here are responsible pet owners. I hear your message but I'm not in your target audience.


I'm ranting to you (you as in, the board) because I know the people here understand my frustrations. Obviously the people here are responsible pet owners 


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Craig's list has a forum. Your Rant would be well served there.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

People will always back yard breed. But all you can do is clench your fists and point everyone in the right direction when it comes to buying a puppy. Tell them the hazards of back yard breeding and suggest good breeders. People buy from them cause they can buy a puppy for 200-500 dollars rather than 1500-2500. You've got to make people understand that it is worth the money.

I love my dog very much. He sweet and beautiful. I paid 250 for him. While I wouldn't take it back or trade him for the world..next time I am going to be doing research and i will spend good money for a puppy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> This is why the "should I neuter/spay my animal" threads kill me on this forum. People start giving advice to not do it without any regard for who the person is that's asking. And their usual reasons for this is to make sure the dog fills out and then some unproven medical claims. No one thinks about the fact that although they are being responsible now, 2 years down the line someone might come up to them and ask them for a stud service, offer to pay $500 to $1000 for their beautiful shepherds to mate, and that person might just say yes.


I have to agree. A lot of folks here are anti spay/neuter, which is fine for THEM, as long as they can be responsible enough to prevent unwanted litters (and I suspect most people here are). But when a new poster comes and asks for spay/neuter advice, I think it borders on irresponsible to tell the average pet owner to keep their dog intact. Or to wait until the dog is 2-3 years of age. A lot can happen in that 2-3 years. We don't know the person who is posting, and yes, if some dolt offers them a grand for a stud fee, or they think they can make several grand on a litter, who is going to turn that down? Only the people who really understand the big picture are going to care enough to resist the temptation of $$$$.

Anyway, yes, I understood the OP to simply be ranting. Preaching to choir, maybe.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm gonna spend some time this afternoon flagging stud ads. I already started, and have thought of a new first step to the "Should I breed my Dog" flowchart.

1) Can I spell my dog's breed?

I have seen countless ads for breeding services for "Siberina Huskies" "Malteese" "German Shephard (or Shepard)" or "Pitt Bull"

...I hate people so much.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I think it borders on irresponsible to tell the average pet owner to keep their dog intact.


Totally disagree!. I visit this forum to get sound advice and opinion on the rearing of my GSD. I don't want some condescending do gooder telling me I should neuter/spay my dog just because they automatically assume I can't manager her during her heat cycles. I want to hear the thoughts and opinions from both sides so I can make my own informed decision.

What is irresponsible is owners who decide not to neuter/spay and end up with oops litters or breed purely for financial gain (without consideration to the breed standard). Period!

I consider myself an average pet owner. 1 female GSD, 2yrs old. She has already had 3 heat cycles all of which were easily managed.


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## dylano (Jul 6, 2012)

Kai is from a 'back yard breeder'.

In the uk their are hardly no breeders like there are in the usa. All the AKC and puppies for £1000+ and papers ect do not really exist here. I only know of one called somethin like susex GSD who sell pups from 1800. In the uk their are breeders and back yard breeders. Breeders do breed in their home ect but have different reasons for doing it to the others

Kai's dam and sire were family pets. The daughter and mother were a vet. They were not chained or anything but from an actuall loving family. She did reaseacrch before breeding, got them tested and hip scored. But he didnt come with papers ect.

If you dont plan to show ect. your dog then i dont see why youd pay silly money for your pup when you could get one from a lovin family

**** I am not saying i support back yard breeders*****

I dont like breeders who do it just for the money, do it improperly, dont get their dogs tested ect.

Also i hate petshop dogs. Its just horrible and cruel.

Hope that makes sense  i hope u dont take it as i support them


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

dylano said:


> Kai is from a 'back yard breeder'.
> 
> In the uk their are hardly no breeders like there are in the usa. All the AKC and puppies for £1000+ and papers ect do not really exist here. I only know of one called somethin like susex GSD who sell pups from 1800. In the uk their are breeders and back yard breeders. Breeders do breed in their home ect but have different reasons for doing it to the others
> 
> ...


If you do all of the appropriate research, testing and care, in my opinion, that graduates you from "Backyard Breeder" to "Hobby Breeder". Of course, seeing as how no one would willingly label themselves a BYB, there are lot who claim to do all of the appropriate testing and care...and don't. (Not saying these people didn't)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm an admin on a local GSD facebook page, and I would say 75% of the owners are BYB or support them. It was started by a 'breeder' who had a litter w/ no papers/heath testing and didn't even know different lines exist.
Many of these members want to breed their dog because they want one of the pups out of them and of course have many family members that will take one too!
It is a terrible embarrassing representation of the locals, and of course isn't everyone, but majority of dog owners feel the same as the people on the fb page.
I know there are a couple of responsible breeders in my area, but these people and their mindset is to buy cheap(because they can't afford an expensive dog) and not support the rescues either. They will reply with go on "this" classified page you can find a cheap pup there.

I and one other person who is on this board will try to nicely educate, but often it falls on deaf ears. 
And then they wonder why their dogs have temperament or health problems.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Totally disagree!. I visit this forum to get sound advice and opinion on the rearing of my GSD. I don't want some condescending do gooder telling me I should neuter/spay my dog just because they automatically assume I can't manager her during her heat cycles. I want to hear the thoughts and opinions from both sides so I can make my own informed decision.
> 
> What is irresponsible is owners who decide not to neuter/spay and end up with oops litters or breed purely for financial gain (without consideration to the breed standard). Period!
> 
> I consider myself an average pet owner. 1 female GSD, 2yrs old. She has already had 3 heat cycles all of which were easily managed.


I agree with this. I am am average pet owner. I will never neuter my boy (unless its a medical issue). He is never out of my sight. I never plan to breed because he is unregistered, unpapered, and unpedigreed. I will never allow a situation in which he can escape, or one where he could breed (unless he is in my house I have eyes on him at all times.) I am very responsible in this area of my dog. Last thing I want is more puppies that never had a chance in the shelter.


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## Lucy323 (Jan 8, 2013)

Oh now, OP, why did you have to start this thread because it made me go to craigslist, which I never do, and check out my area. Now my blood is boiling. I'm not savvy on the craigslist front - under which TOS violation do you flag 'em (and let's not kid ourselves - it's not going to do a darn thing)?

Greatest hits from my area: Someone with a female bulldog who's looking for a stud and her pedigree is that she's has a brother who is Ice-T and Coco's dog.... a couple of other people looking for studs, but you need to call them before the bitches' next cycle because they're going to be spayed. Oh and there's a Chi-Chi (huh??) that's 8 months old and at stud - he's registered with the International Designer Canine Registry, so get your bitches ready and be sure to get their papers here: Registration and Pedigree Services for Designer Breeds - International Designer Canine Registry).... thank God I didn't see GSDs on Craigslist, but I did learn that a GSDxPug is called a Shug and a GSDxGolden Retriever is a Golden Shepherd through the esteemed International Designer Canine Registry.

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

pfitzpa1 said:


> I don't want some condescending do gooder telling me I should neuter/spay my dog just because they automatically assume I can't manager her during her heat cycles.
> 
> I consider myself an average pet owner. 1 female GSD, 2yrs old. She has already had 3 heat cycles all of which were easily managed.





GusGus said:


> I agree with this. I am am average pet owner. I will never neuter my boy (unless its a medical issue). He is never out of my sight. I never plan to breed because he is unregistered, unpapered, and unpedigreed. I will never allow a situation in which he can escape, or one where he could breed (unless he is in my house I have eyes on him at all times.)


Yes, but we don't automatically KNOW this about every new person who posts. Unfortunately, some of us see so much irresponsible pet ownership and breeding that we come to expect it from the average person; we tend to assume the worst of people in this regard. At least I do. Anyone who has worked in a rescue, ac or shelter sees the most horrible unspeakable cruelty and ignorance, becomes sensitized to it, and doesn't take anything for granted. You want to think most people are responsible and good at heart, but it's a harsh wake-up call when you see the way some people treat/mistreat/neglect their animals. A LOT of people. See it enough and you start to think that anyone is capable of it, regardless of how nice and responsible they are in other aspects of their life. Just as a groomer I can tell stories you wouldn't believe--doctors, lawyers, all walks of life can be negligent dog owners. No one gets a free pass.

I realize that all sounds horribly jaded and judgmental, but it really isn't personal. I don't care whether people keep their pets intact, as long as they don't allow any unwanted litters.

But I don't think it's wise to automatically assume that every person who posts here will be capable of that.

You, me, and the majority of folks on this forum probably can, and there are probably lots of other people out there who are, i just don't know who they are yet, and IMO it's safer to give conservative advice: Spay/neuter 6-9 months for the average pet owner who has no desire to keep an intact dog. For people who are into sport or will be working their dogs, maybe wait a little longer for optimal bone/joint development, 1-2 years. For anyone who is responsible, it's up to them when they want to spay/neuter at all.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I have a female CH, TEC, ( CAn GS temperment evaluation, HIC, almost ready for titles, OFA hips and elbows, her litter mate is entered in Westminster, and I spayed her, the ranting from so many was intense, I did things with her for fun and tests for the breeder, I couldn't believe the people who were nasty she wasn't bred, She is breed worthy but I am not a breeder, and spayed she is still a great pet and we continue playing at things...She is ready for CDX but my health is preventing our entering. She never had a litter.

Not all dogs need to be bred, not all people should breed, there is a lot of work involved, there are crazy people who wish to buy and may be irresponsible. I wish more people would think clearer


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I realize that all sounds horribly jaded and judgmental, but it really isn't personal. I don't care whether people keep their pets intact, as long as they don't allow any unwanted litters.
> 
> But I don't think it's wise to automatically assume that every person who posts here will be capable of that.


Look, this is a forum that is for the most part populated by people who just want the best for their dogs. The ones who decide to breed are basically folks who are determined to breed no matter what. Your post favoring the "neuter now" are not going to make any (or little) difference on this forum. What most "serious" GSD owners want (and I believe that most GSD owners on here are serious GSD owners) is insight, advice, voice of experience etc.

If "you" cannot assume that this forum is targeted and frequented by "serious" GSD owners, then this forum (for you), is no different than a craigslist forum.

I come here to read experienced advice on the raising of my GSD. I don't care whether I'm a first time poster or a multiple poster, I want fair and balanced opinions.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Look, this is a forum that is for the most part populated by people who just want the best for their dogs. The ones who decide to breed are basically folks who are determined to breed no matter what. Your post favoring the "neuter now" are not going to make any (or little) difference on this forum. What most "serious" GSD owners want (and I believe that most GSD owners on here are serious GSD owners) is insight, advice, voice of experience etc.
> 
> If "you" cannot assume that this forum is targeted and frequented by "serious" GSD owners, then this forum (for you), is no different than a craigslist forum.
> 
> I come here to read experienced advice on the raising of my GSD. I don't care whether I'm a first time poster or a multiple poster, I want fair and balanced opinions.


Let me add, you are correct (and I 100% agree) not everyone who posts on here is capable of managing their intact dog. For the most part, any owner who realizes this too late, generally will neuter/spay their dog after the first litter. We all, even the good intentioned ones, can make mistakes. However I bet that even those owners that had good intentions, probably made sure that the litter was placed well and not dumped.

This forum, to me, is an excellent resource for all things GSD and I would hate to see sound advice/opinion drowned out by generic save the doggie world rhetoric.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

robk said:


> Craig's list has a forum. Your Rant would be well served there.


But would it really? I mean....maybe I'm cynical, but I am greatly of the opinion that people hear what they want to hear. People these days are so used to hearing: "the truth is subjective," "whatever you want to believe is ok because you believe it which makes it valid," and that inherently makes people seek out what they already believe to be true, anything else is rejected. I think the majority of people who frequent a Craig's list forum wouldn't give two hoots about what some random person who disagrees with them thinks.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

I know I've posted this, but I'd like to add my annoyance..

O was non craigslist looking for a dog crate to see how cheap I could find one. And everyone is specifically asking for mix breeds? I want a Pitt mix or a Pomeranian/Chihuahua mix puppy. Why can't people just go to the humane society and get a nice homeless mix breed. They have a website and you can go in any day of the week and I'm sure you'll find a dog with part of the mix you want. Sorry, it was just frustrating


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Sunflowers said:


> What you mean is, people need to stop buying.


:thumbup:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are two sides to every coin....on the one hand it is noble(???) to assume that new folks need to be informed of what they should or should not do, sometimes independent of the question they are asking; on the other hand there are many knowledgable people who aren't hardly posting anymore because of not wanting to debate with the puritanical element. So for the folks who need to be directed( and will accept the advice regardless of tact or content)...this is good. For others here to learn, maybe not as great. If at the end of the day both sides of the coin are irritated at perceived rude and tactless advice....then we are left with the preacher preaching to the choir instead of the congregation....maybe that's the way it ought to be....lol


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

GusGus said:


> I agree with this. I am am average pet owner. I will never neuter my boy (unless its a medical issue). He is never out of my sight. I never plan to breed because he is unregistered, unpapered, and unpedigreed. I will never allow a situation in which he can escape, or one where he could breed (unless he is in my house I have eyes on him at all times.) I am very responsible in this area of my dog. Last thing I want is more puppies that never had a chance in the shelter.


You are NOT the average pet owner. An average pet owner is not part of an online forum because they love their dog/breed. Unfortunately we are the minority. The majority of people should have their pets spayed and neutered because they can't or won't take the steps needed to adequately prevent an "oops" litter. 


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Title drew me in. I didn't take this as a 'preaching to the choir' post....or a preaching to anyone post. In my opinion, if you can't vent here with people who understand where you're coming from, then where CAN you vent?!


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## Lucy323 (Jan 8, 2013)

GusGus said:


> I know I've posted this, but I'd like to add my annoyance..
> 
> O was non craigslist looking for a dog crate to see how cheap I could find one. And everyone is specifically asking for mix breeds? I want a Pitt mix or a Pomeranian/Chihuahua mix puppy. Why can't people just go to the humane society and get a nice homeless mix breed. They have a website and you can go in any day of the week and I'm sure you'll find a dog with part of the mix you want. Sorry, it was just frustrating


Because of this concept of "designer breeds", how it's been marketed by bybs with marketing savvy, got the concept out there, and trickled down to the scummiest bybs. I have a friend who has a something-or-another-doodle, that she paid $600 for. I remember after she got it, she was telling me and my other friend, whose family has a darn pretty decent history in breeding and confirmation, about it and like WE were crazy that we didn't know about "designer breeds". 

Go back a page in this thread and you'll find my link for an "organization" that "legitimizes" these " designer breeds". And I agree with you - you want a mix, GO ADOPT.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

Lucy323 said:


> Because of this concept of "designer breeds", how it's been marketed by bybs with marketing savvy, got the concept out there, and trickled down to the scummiest bybs. I have a friend who has a something-or-another-doodle, that she paid $600 for. I remember after she got it, she was telling me and my other friend, whose family has a darn pretty decent history in breeding and confirmation, about it and like WE were crazy that we didn't know about "designer breeds".
> 
> Go back a page in this thread and you'll find my link for an "organization" that "legitimizes" these " designer breeds". And I agree with you - you want a mix, GO ADOPT.


Designer breeds are irritating. Its GLORIFYING the worst of BYBs IMO. Taking two most likely unpapered dogs of seperate breeds and breeding them to make a ____poo. And now that they have the name "designer" so people think they're Hollywood standard. Its a mix breed, just like most poor helpless shelter dogs who deserve good homes, with a fancy name. And people think they're different..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The labradoodle was not supposed to become the fad dog. It was bred for service and then was exploited. 

I had a mix of border collie and golden retriever and she was by far one of the nicest dogs I've ever had....best of both breeds in one body. But it wasn't a planned breeding, and I'd never support or pay for a designer mutt.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I once had a woman ask what kind of mongrels I was walking ( my parent's dogs) while i was soakingspeaking to someone else about them being pound puppies.. When i said "A huskitador retriever and beagluskymation" she completely changed her tune about them. Funny how a name that flows together and is a mixture of the breeds in the dog can change a person's mind so much.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> The labradoodle was not supposed to become the fad dog. It was bred for service and then was exploited.
> 
> I had a mix of border collie and golden retriever and she was by far one of the nicest dogs I've ever had....best of both breeds in one body. But it wasn't a planned breeding, and I'd never support or pay for a designer mutt.


My fiance has a pit/boxer mix and he is just lazy and sweet. (He's aggressive towards the things he has such as food or toys) but over all he's as sweet as can be.

He also had a GSD/ something mix and he was beautiful and the best dog I've ever seen. A personality that could change moods..they were both rescued from the shelter. I would only get a mix from the shelter so I know my funds are helping other helpless animals.


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Have you even considered the OP might have posted this simply because she was frustrated at the practice and that this was, what she considered to be, a safe place to do that? 
My goodness -please tell me now before I trip up and d the same thing!

Instead, I would have thought people would have commiserated and maybe suggest how she could educate those perusing Craigslist for a 'pure bred' of the moral and genetic pitfalls of buying from a breeder that hasn't been researched.

At least THAT would be constructive.

The last board I visits with this current of poorly concealed hostility was the breast feeding support board!


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

zivagirl said:


> Title drew me in. I didn't take this as a 'preaching to the choir' post....or a preaching to anyone post. In my opinion, if you can't vent here with people who understand where you're coming from, then where CAN you vent?!


Totally agree with this post. Given recent posts on this forum, I have no doubt that this is the sentiment the OP posted from. Relax people... the OP simply started a thread to vent some frustration based on some recent threads.

Now, if I had started this thread, you probably would have all hated me because I would have suggested a much higher standard for ANY breeding than most of you would be comfortable with. But, I didn't and won't because I know the audience here.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Let me add, you are correct (and I 100% agree) not everyone who posts on here is capable of managing their intact dog. For the most part, any owner who realizes this too late, generally will neuter/spay their dog after the first litter. We all, even the good intentioned ones, can make mistakes. However I bet that even those owners that had good intentions, probably made sure that the litter was placed well and not dumped.
> 
> This forum, to me, is an excellent resource for all things GSD and I would hate to see sound advice/opinion drowned out by generic save the doggie world rhetoric.


Actually...I don't believe that to be true. We do get plenty of people on here that post about how they want to breed their dog and are looking for a stud/female. 99% of those, you will not change their minds. You can just read it in their posts/reactions after people start asking why. They're going to do it no matter what people say. But there is one every once in a while that "sees the light" and realizes their decision is misguided. We actually just had one recently. I usually don't chime into those discussions...but it is a really fun time monitoring the posts and the discussion that ensues. I did chime in once and had the guy try to rip apart my dog because his dog was so much better. Just proved how little he knew about GSDs as he was taking a 4 month old, gangly picture of my boy and using that as his basis thinking that that's what my dog looked like now. After that guy realized he wasn't going to find what he was looking for on this forum, he just decided to buy a female and he was going to do what he wanted anyways.

But even the "good intentioned ones" you're talking about. Isn't 1 litter...1 litter too many? That's 10 dogs, that hopefully find good homes, but are then in the hands of people that might just make the same mistake their "breeder" did. So even if 2 of those people have an accident, that's 20 more puppies...and it just goes on and on. And when you're talking about 10 dogs, possibly they're placed in good homes and not returned, but the chances of 20 dogs being placed in homes where they won't end up in a shelter are very small. And on top of that you can throw in the fact that you're hoping the puppies do have good temperament and aren't problems. If they have problems, more of them might just end up in shelters.

These dogs aren't going to go to the most knowledgeable of homes. The homes where the dogs will get what they need depending on their drives. I went to what would be considered a BYB on this board. I got lucky, have an amazing dog, my whole GSD club raves about him and I have gotten many requests recently to see his pedigree as some people are considering breeding to him. I'm embarrassed of his pedigree...I know its not the greatest, and I know when people look at it they will probably not want to breed to him anymore (and I have no issue with that).

But here's the truth, he's intact, and if someone I respect comes to me with a female I like and I believe (along with other people at the club) that they would make some solid puppies. I'd have an extremely hard time saying no. In my heart of hearts I believe my boy has no business making puppies when I look at his pedigree, but when I see him work and I see his temperament compared to the other dogs around him that are being bred, I don't really have an issue with it and do believe he should have his genes passed on. I'm also someone that trains/trials/learns about the breed, and not just someone who has bought a puppy, thinks it's the greatest thing since sliced bred because it learned sit within 5 minutes, and now decided I need to breed it because no other dog in the world has that ability.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

zivagirl said:


> Title drew me in. I didn't take this as a 'preaching to the choir' post....or a preaching to anyone post. In my opinion, if you can't vent here with people who understand where you're coming from, then where CAN you vent?!


Thank u!  


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

*WHEW! I took the title to mean that the OP was against the populaqtion growth of the world in general!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

codmaster said:


> *WHEW! I took the title to mean that the OP was against the populaqtion growth of the world in general!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


Lol no!! I love responsible, ethical and intelligent breeders. Of the furry and the bald ones  


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *WHEW! I took the title to mean that the OP was against the populaqtion growth of the world in general!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


 I dunno... sometimes I think we do need some tests to ensure that only breedworthy humans pro-create  JK JK JK!!!! -prepares for nucleur warheads to attack-


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## loveallsheps91 (Nov 10, 2012)

Capone22 said:


> You are NOT the average pet owner. An average pet owner is not part of an online forum because they love their dog/breed. Unfortunately we are the minority. The majority of people should have their pets spayed and neutered because they can't or won't take the steps needed to adequately prevent an "oops" litter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Im very confused as to what you are saying. Could you please go deeper? I am not part of an online forum. I just belong to one This is my second post since ive had this account. Just because someone doesnt belong to a forum doesnt mean they dont love their dog any less or more than you. I am 21 years old and have owned dogs my whole life. Just because somebody gets on a forum to talk about german shepherds does not mean theyre a better owner than ones who dont. Im not suggesting this is what you are saying, im simply asking. Loving your dog doesnt consist of joining forums/social networking to talk about it. Loving your dog means you understand them. Not just understand shepherds in general, but understand the dog on a personal level. Just because people understand sheperds in general does not mean they understand YOUR dog. 

Dont get me wrong, I love the fact that a loving dog owner can get on a website and ask questions and get accurate answers. All im saying is just because that may have been the case with some dogs does not mean it is the case with yours. I love my dogs with everything I have, there is not a single thing I wouldnt do for them. In your post you said the majority of people should have their dogs spayed . You also say youre the minority because you are part of this forum. From my perspective it appears (since the majority of people domt belong to a forum and also the majority should have their dog spayed) youre saying if you domt love your dog enough to join a forum then you should neuter them?? Am I wrong? Thats just what I gathered


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## zivagirl (Jan 5, 2013)

loveallsheps91 said:


> I love my dogs with everything I have, there is not a single thing I wouldnt do for them. In your post you said the majority of people should have their dogs spayed . You also say youre the minority because you are part of this forum. From my perspective it appears (since the majority of people domt belong to a forum and also the majority should have their dog spayed) youre saying if you domt love your dog enough to join a forum then you should neuter them?? Am I wrong? Thats just what I gathered


Do you think the majority of dog owners are members of online dog forums? I'm thinking 'no' which makes the us here...online....part of a minority. Most of the people here support responsible dog ownership which includes not breeding unless you are a professional breeder with the goal of bettering the breed.

What she's saying is that if you love the breed, you leave the breeding to those who know what they're doing so that you (generic) don't muck up the genetic line. 

So yes, you were wrong. But that's okay.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

loveallsheps91 said:


> Im very confused as to what you are saying. Could you please go deeper? I am not part of an online forum. I just belong to one This is my second post since ive had this account. Just because someone doesnt belong to a forum doesnt mean they dont love their dog any less or more than you. I am 21 years old and have owned dogs my whole life. Just because somebody gets on a forum to talk about german shepherds does not mean theyre a better owner than ones who dont. Im not suggesting this is what you are saying, im simply asking. Loving your dog doesnt consist of joining forums/social networking to talk about it. Loving your dog means you understand them. Not just understand shepherds in general, but understand the dog on a personal level. Just because people understand sheperds in general does not mean they understand YOUR dog.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, I love the fact that a loving dog owner can get on a website and ask questions and get accurate answers. All im saying is just because that may have been the case with some dogs does not mean it is the case with yours. I love my dogs with everything I have, there is not a single thing I wouldnt do for them. In your post you said the majority of people should have their dogs spayed . You also say youre the minority because you are part of this forum. From my perspective it appears (since the majority of people domt belong to a forum and also the majority should have their dog spayed) youre saying if you domt love your dog enough to join a forum then you should neuter them?? Am I wrong? Thats just what I gathered


It has nothing to do with how much you love your dog. It has more to do with how responsible of an owner you are. In general...if you take the time to visit an online forum to learn more about your dog and your dog's breed, you are probably more responsible of an owner than those that don't. You also get to read opinions of people who have dedicated their life to this breed and probably pick up a little bit from them on what your dog really needs (more than just laying around on a couch). You learn about all the different venues a dog can participate in, and how it is that breeders decide to breed their dogs.

I don't get why sometimes when people generalize, others take it as if they're talking about them in particular. There are plenty of people out there that are responsible dog owners, that can handle an intact animal, and are not on this forum. My whole dog club for one, not a single other person is on this forum. But they have intact dogs...most of them have more than one in the same house, and they manage to deal. But if you look at your every day regular Joe Shmo dog owner, they are just not ready for such a responsibility.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

What I'm saying is that *if* you are part on an online forum focusing on the love of dogs than more than likely you treat your animals a certain way. You make sure they are safe, well fed, you research the best nutrition and training . You spend much of your time with them. Etc... MOST pet owners in the United States are not like this. I'm not saying if you are not part of an online forum than you are a bad owner, but chances are if you ARE part of a german shepherd forum then you take very good care of your dogs. The majority of large dog owners leave their dogs outside 24/7. With free run to the back yard, not talking kennel dogs here. Giving ample opportunity to escape and impregnate a bitch or get pregnant themselves. So yes, I think MOST people should spay & neuter their pets. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It has nothing to do with how much you love your dog. It has more to do with how responsible of an owner you are. In general...if you take the time to visit an online forum to learn more about your dog and your dog's breed, you are probably more responsible of an owner than those that don't. You also get to read opinions of people who have dedicated their life to this breed and probably pick up a little bit from them on what your dog really needs (more than just laying around on a couch). You learn about all the different venues a dog can participate in, and how it is that breeders decide to breed their dogs.
> 
> I don't get why sometimes when people generalize, others take it as if they're talking about them in particular. There are plenty of people out there that are responsible dog owners, that can handle an intact animal, and are not on this forum. My whole dog club for one, not a single other person is on this forum. But they have intact dogs...most of them have more than one in the same house, and they manage to deal. But if you look at your every day regular Joe Shmo dog owner, they are just not ready for such a responsibility.


Yes exactly. You said this much better than I did. 


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## loveallsheps91 (Nov 10, 2012)

zivagirl said:


> Do you think the majority of dog owners are members of online dog forums? I'm thinking 'no' which makes the us here...online....part of a minority. Most of the people here support responsible dog ownership which includes not breeding unless you are a professional breeder with the goal of bettering the breed.
> 
> What she's saying is that if you love the breed, you leave the breeding to those who know what they're doing so that you (generic) don't muck up the genetic line.
> 
> So yes, you were wrong. But that's okay.


At some point there was a misunderstanding. I was not disputing the fact that people on here are or are not a minority. If you carefully read whatvi said, you would know that I was simply comparing the fact that the person said you were the minority while also stating the majority of people should have their pets spayed. I was asking if that ment since the minority is ONLINE and the majority is OFFLINE does that mean people who dont belong to forums shouldnt breed? That is all


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## loveallsheps91 (Nov 10, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It has nothing to do with how much you love your dog. It has more to do with how responsible of an owner you are. In general...if you take the time to visit an online forum to learn more about your dog and your dog's breed, you are probably more responsible of an owner than those that don't. You also get to read opinions of people who have dedicated their life to this breed and probably pick up a little bit from them on what your dog really needs (more than just laying around on a couch). You learn about all the different venues a dog can participate in, and how it is that breeders decide to breed their dogs.
> 
> I don't get why sometimes when people generalize, others take it as if they're talking about them in particular. There are plenty of people out there that are responsible dog owners, that can handle an intact animal, and are not on this forum. My whole dog club for one, not a single other person is on this forum. But they have intact dogs...most of them have more than one in the same house, and they manage to deal. But if you look at your every day regular Joe Shmo dog owner, they are just not ready for such a responsibility.


 I dissagreeb with some of this. I am a very resposible pet owner. I just think taking my dog to a vet ( someonebody who has studied dogs, learned about them, fixes them, has went through years of schooling doing nothing but dedicating their lives to helping animals, and also get paid for the expertice) is better than getting information from everybtom **** and harry online. Their are no opinions. There is no second guessing. Grant you, I am aware of how people just like thebcolor green and will do whatever to get it. I think that makes me mopeople more responsible taking their dog to a licensed animal doctor i do love the fact that everyone can converse about everything on here though. Its nice to see that not everyone in this world has a massive ego and just wants to win a pissing conest 

I do have a question though, a neighbor of mine cages 12 hunting dogs right across the street from me. He specifcally rented this home just for his dogs and he does not live there. They are NEVER out of their kennels. He is only there a few times a week to feed them. All they do is bark bark bark. I feel so bad for the dogs. They have no life. No love. Nobody to talk to. Police wont do anything. Neither will game warden. What can I do. Technically hes not doing anything wrong I dont think but I cant fathom the fact these dogs are treated this way. I know im in wrong spot for this conversation and im sorry it wont happen again just thought id add something while it was fresh in my mind. Thanks


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I do have a question though, a neighbor of mine cages 12 hunting dogs right across the street from me. He specifcally rented this home just for his dogs and he does not live there. They are NEVER out of their kennels. He is only there a few times a week to feed them. All they do is bark bark bark. I feel so bad for the dogs. They have no life. No love. Nobody to talk to. Police wont do anything. Neither will game warden. What can I do. Technically hes not doing anything wrong I dont think but I cant fathom the fact these dogs are treated this way. I know im in wrong spot for this conversation and im sorry it wont happen again just thought id add something while it was fresh in my mind. Thanks


Can you contact the landlord? Are the dogs caged or kenneled? I would write a note to the owner and ask them if they have any compassion in their heart. I'd be nice, but stern and let them know the dogs are constantly upsetting the neighbors. 
You could do it anonymously in case you fear retribution.

You must live in a rural area that allows dogs to bark like that? Some villages or townships have ordinances against constant noise. I'd approach the local leaders and see if you have any rights as a property owner.


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