# GSD 's turning on owners



## dccurtis (Feb 15, 2016)

Hello all, I'm hoping to have my pup in a few weeks and my wife keeps coming up with questions. She read that GSDs are in the top 20 breeds that turn on their folks. I tried to assure her that any dog could do that. Is it true that you have to be more careful with them or is it just coincidental. Thanks ... :halogsd:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's just silly.The only way your dog would bite you was if he was in pain,in the midst of a fight,or felt threatened.Or I suppose some sort of serious mental disorder.Gsds are loving,loyal,Velcro dogs.I suggest you and your wife do a lot more research on Gsd temperaments and dogs in general.They aren't "jekle and hyde" creatures that turn on you!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ or an untrained dog without clear boundaries


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

I've never seen it from my late dog Cubby.

She was sweet, loving and devoted up to her last breath.

I've never seen a more gentle dog than a GSD.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Don't know what she's been reading, but German Shepherds are loyal, used as therapy dogs as well as tracking, guarding and excel in obedience. I raised my children with GSDs. In fact the one I had when my stairstep children were 6,5 and 3 became the neighborhood nursemaid, following all.

Your wife needs to feel confident with the puppy. 

Your puppy will just be a baby and need cuddles etc.. Like two legged kids, they need time to mature.

Some will be nippy - just a stage, remember they don't have hands. They need exercise. A tired puppy is a good puppy.

Your children as well at the pup need to be respectful of each other.

Get good crate and read about crate training. Good way to give pup and children their own space.

Good luck


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I suppose that there is a reason based on statistics that everything you read has them on dangerous breed lists, most likely to bite, etc. at the same time they are listed as the #2 most popular breed.

This is basically what your wife is reading(it's pretty much the same everywhere)

"German Shepherd Dangerous Dog Breeds
If this is the most preferred breed by police and military units, there is a reason behind it. German Shepherd is an intelligent, aggressive, fearless and confident dog. If German Shepherds are not socialized properly, they can be more attacking towards people, even their owner. According to statistics, German Shepeherd is among five most dangerous dog breeds. Original bred for work, German Shepherds are aggressive dogs who are sometimes not suitable for being a family pet. 

However, the dog is protective towards his family, there have been examples in the history where German Shepherd has attacked and killed people."

I don't personally see it with my own or with most of the ones I've met. I have seen a couple that just weren't right and quite scary but I don't know how or why they were that way. The biggest thing with them is training and socialization and it should be ongoing. They make great pets and are loyal dogs. Mine adore kids, but I can see where sometimes it wouldn't work.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

When I first got rosko an old painter I work with occasionally asked me if I was crazy. Said he knew a guy who got a gsd as a pup and when it grew to an adult it attacked him and he had to have 50 something stitches. After a couple questions I learned that the dog was tied up his whole life. The guys daughter would feed the dog. One day she came in and said that the dog had growled at her. The next day she came in and said the same thing. So he told her the following day that he would feed him. Will when he went in the dogs area to put the food in his bowl the dog attacked. That is all of the story that was available but yet those who heard it just associated gsd with turning on owner. Not owner setting dog up to fail.


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## dccurtis (Feb 15, 2016)

*Thanks*

Thanks all for the feedback. I'm really looking forward to getting this pup. No kids but 2 small yorkies and I know that a pup properly socialized with them will be fine. Have been considering crate training...will post pics when he comes.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Actually, there's some research I've posted before by vet behaviorists who found certain training methods _are _more likely to elicit handler bites. All of the methods that had that connection in the study were aversive and caused the dogs to feel a need to defend themselves from their owners. It was not breed specific. So....the easy take-away from that is that idiots who hurt and scare dogs under the guise of "correction" may create dogs that bite. 

Most of us who have created strong bonds with our dogs have trained them in ways that create a rock-solid foundation of trust. Focus on your bond, and forming that trust, and everything else will follow.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I googled "top 20 breeds that turn on their owners" to view what your wife may have read. The site I clicked on actually listed the German Shepherd as #2. #1 was pit bull. I did this because it is important when going into a joint venture for your wifes concerns to be given consideration.

That being said, there are variables when looking at statistics and where the site actually got the statistic list from. A lot of what I offer is from learning from this gsd site and a little of my own experience. 1st and foremost, any breeder worth their salt breeds for solid nerve and clear headedness so make certain you read the "how to find a responsible breeder". It could save you a lot of heart ache.

Also the list I looked at validated the #2 position for amoung other things that the breed is used in K9 police units because of the ability to be aggressive. But that is only a half truth. Gsd's used for police work need to be clear headed with solid even temperment.

You are correct to ask these questions because you are considering a physically powerful and intelligent breed.

Also, the stats never indicated what percentage of the bites happened from abuse poor genetics, lack of socialization. Those stats would paint a much clearer picture if it did.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

In any group, you can always find a small percentage of dogs who are not playing with a full deck. Sometimes it's genetics, sometimes neglect and/or mistreatment, sometimes inconsistency and no boundaries or a great many other variables.

I can't speak for shepherds as a whole, as I have only had one, but I will tell you that mine is a sweetheart. Newlie was a rescue that we got when he was between 1-2 years old. He is currently between 5-6 and weighs 83 pounds, and I am older woman, so he seriously could have put me out of commission any time these last three years if he had decided to do so. Newlie has never deliberately laid a tooth on me. He scratched the back of my leg once when a ball bounced too close to me and when he first came to us, occasionally he would get so excited that he would try to grab a ball out of my hand, but he knows I don't like that and rarely does it anymore. I have stepped on his feet and his tail accidently before and he yelps and then gives me a kiss when I say "I'm sorry." He has had chronic, painful ear issues and he lets me clean them without fighting. He has seen different vets in his time with me and been given shots, had his toenails clipped (which he hates) rectal temperature and fecal samples taken and most recently had his right knee pulled and manipulated by a surgeon with a diagnosis of a torn ACL. Newlie cried and muttered and swore in doggy language while this going on, but hid his face in my lap and held no grudge when it was over. He has also had plaque chipped off his teeth at the groomers while not sedated. I hope this helps you both.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Forgot to give my own experience... A ton of good training. A ton of fun excersize. A ton of patience and love and I and my family got the most loyal friend we could ever hope for.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I suppose that there is a reason based on statistics that everything you read has them on dangerous breed lists, most likely to bite, etc. at the same time they are listed as the #2 most popular breed.
> 
> This is basically what your wife is reading(it's pretty much the same everywhere)
> 
> ...


Do you mind providing the source for that? 

OP, are you sure your wife is understanding what she is reading? I have by no means read everything out there German Shepherd, but I have read a lot, and I have never read or heard of where a German Shepherd is a breed prone to turning on its owner and biting. In fact, the opposite holds true. German Shepherds are the most loyal of breeds and that in itself would make them the most UNlikely to bite its owner.

On the other hand, they are bred to protect and guard, so that could place then higher on the list for more likely to bite somebody else.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you mind providing the source for that?
> 
> OP, are you sure your wife is understanding what she is reading? I have by no means read everything out there German Shepherd, but I have read a lot, and I have never read or heard of where a German Shepherd is a breed prone to turning on its owner and biting. In fact, the opposite holds true. German Shepherds are the most loyal of breeds and that in itself would make them the most UNlikely to bite its owner.
> 
> On the other hand, they are bred to protect and guard, so that could place then higher on the list for more likely to bite somebody else.


Just google it, it's everywhere. I'm not saying that the lists are legit but this is what is on the Internet(more then one site)and what the OPs wife is reading. Heartlandsoul googled it and found the same thing per their post.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> Just google it, it's everywhere. I'm not saying that the lists are legit but this is what is on the Internet(more then one site)and what the OPs wife is reading. Heartlandsoul googled it and found the same thing per their post.


I am not saying that I have not seen where GSDs are a dog likely to bite strangers. 

I am saying I have never seen anywhere that said they are likely to turn on their owners. 

I did just google it and only came up with two articles saying they were prone to attacking their owners. I wouldn't put a lot of credence in two articles. The rest of the articles that came up stated they are not prone to attacking their owners and it is a myth that they are.

I am not saying it never happens, it happens in all breeds, but it is not, and never has been in my lifetime, a trait for which they were noted for.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Tell your wife this

I did rescue for years, fostered countless dogs, used to scope puppy mills/farms. I have pulled some pretty messed up dogs and been bitten, a lot. Went in to remove some small furry dogs and got bitten multiple times, fostered a lab cross and had my arm chewed up, trying to help some mastiff cross got me a hole through my hand. Trying to rescue a male Chow got me a hole in my calf. Cutting the cage wire away from a young male Shepherds foot got me kisses. Comforting a Shepherd bitch dying in labor from a bleed, got me kisses. Lifting a young female Shepherd out of the cage she had been born in got me kisses, and cuddles 
I have been bitten by GSD's, but some of the worst rescues I helped with were Shepherds and I never got anything but kisses. 
If she would like to focus on something let her focus on that. 

Good luck with the pup!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

By and large dogs that "turn" on there owners are dogs that don't have* rules, structure boundaries and limitations (NO)* and another commonality would be they don't understand the word "NO!" And that is not "Breed" specific it's a "negligent owner" that can't train there dog! I've "encountered" eight of them so far (dogs with no rules) on "walks" as have many others. 

And if an owner happens to be present?? The first words out of there mouth are not "No" or "Stay" or "recalling" the dog, "nope" it's *"is your dog friendly??"* As there untrained cur bears down on your dog! If people "train" their dogs ... they don't need "aversives!" 

So don't provide the part that's underlined add in a powerful breed and throw in resource guarding and "that's" how people get bit! Those are the dogs that "need" "corrections" and people that don't get that are the ones that turn in there dogs, so someone else that does not understand either can, PTS. A ought to know it's limitations. Nuff said on that! 

But since the OP has no dog yet doing it right would look like this and I have it on good authority that if you do want to train your dog with out any real corrections to speak of it would look like this:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/how-do-i-teach-my-dog/85869-teaching-focus.html

Pretty much how I trained my Boxer, although I had no idea I was doing it at the time??

With my OS Wl GSD, I had five pack fights with him and my Band dog, I was never able to solve that "because I never delivered a convincing enough aversive! "Wobble" dog so I had "constraints" on what I could do and what I knew at the time. The problem resolved itself when Gunther passed following the last battle due to unrelated issues. 

Despite his "attitude" with Gunther my dog never came up leash at me. Because I had "most" of the part underlined in place. Round two, HA was solved without "aversives" by showing him what I wanted, "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" pretty much that simple.

That is in here along with some other info ... 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And for general "puppy" stuff see here and take note of training puppies in the "Place Command." 

https://www.youtube.com/user/DogerciseLA/playlists

And a broader overview of "Place" is here:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

As I am want to say every dog should know "The Place Command," OP sorry for the slightly off topic "points" but "I" like to:










People need to use the "applicable" "Protocols" for the dog in front of them ... nuff said, Welcome aboard!


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

dccurtis said:


> Hello all, I'm hoping to have my pup in a few weeks and my wife keeps coming up with questions.  She read that GSDs are in the top 20 breeds that turn on their folks. I tried to assure her that any dog could do that. Is it true that you have to be more careful with them or is it just coincidental. Thanks ... :halogsd:


If its your dog as a puppy NO WAY can I see this breed turn on their owner unless they were abusive or in circumstances described here "pain...etc but if you teach bite inhibition I bet it wouldn't be hard.

The one time my dog bit me hard was when he was barking at a dog he doesnt like in my old neighborhood and I went to grab his leash attached to the prong and I grabbed a hand full of bottom jaw mid bark and he just... ouch

But with how these dogs bond with their owners I cant imagine a GSD of sane mind and health turning on their owner.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not saying that I have not seen where GSDs are a dog likely to bite strangers.
> 
> I am saying I have never seen anywhere that said they are likely to turn on their owners.
> 
> ...


It's not articles, it's lists. This isn't about you or your opinion. This is what people find on the Internet when they search things like dangerous dogs or dogs most likely to bite, etc. This is new owners or people doing research on the breed, this is what people are seeing that don't own GSDs. Right or wrong, truth or myth, it is out there. 

As an owner of the breed I won't say it's a myth because I know they are powerful dogs. I don't know where the list comes from or what statistics they are looking at to determine it, but it's coming from somewhere. I've been bit(on accident in the middle of a fight) and I can say that within a split second I probably needed stitches and I'm talking a bite and instant release once the dog realized it was me and not the other dog. This bite was not reported and I'm sure that most in these cases aren't, which is how it should be. I can't possibly imagine the damage that could be done by a GSD that bites down and holds. They can do serious damage and in seconds.


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## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

I think there's a misconception that GSD's or even pit bulls can turn on their owners. What i think most people do not consider is the background of say an individual case. Was the dog well trained or socialized? How is it treated? Is it crated? etc.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you mind providing the source for that?
> 
> OP, are you sure your wife is understanding what she is reading? I have by no means read everything out there German Shepherd, but I have read a lot, and I have never read or heard of where a German Shepherd is a breed prone to turning on its owner and biting. In fact, the opposite holds true. German Shepherds are the most loyal of breeds and that in itself would make them the most UNlikely to bite its owner.
> 
> On the other hand, they are bred to protect and guard, so that could place then higher on the list for more likely to bite somebody else.


Here is the link that came up first when I googledhttp://www.dognotebook.com/15-dangerous-dog-breeds-most-likely-to-turn-on-their-owners/ I hope it worked.

I don't think the actual stats indicate turning on owners, just bite stats. So it was just the headline. I did try to find who wrote the article because honestly, so much bunk is out there and misleadingly titled just to get people to click on the site. 

Care and consideration is needed when choosing a strong breed.

To the op, I wish there was a study/stat of top breeds most likely to forgive unintentional abuse is stepping on paw tripping on dog etc as I bet GSD would be #1 on that list.

There were times when I knew Sonny was too much dog for me but I pulled myself up by the bootstraps and learned got help to provide for him appropriately. He is 4.5 yes old. Every time he has been accidentally stepped on etc he has turned quickly to give kisses and ask forgiveness.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Heartandsoul said:


> Here is the link that came up first when I googledhttp://www.dognotebook.com/15-dangerous-dog-breeds-most-likely-to-turn-on-their-owners/ I hope it worked.
> 
> I don't think the actual stats indicate turning on owners, just bite stats. So it was just the headline. I did try to find who wrote the article because honestly, so much bunk is out there and misleadingly titled just to get people to click on the site.
> 
> ...


So you have to understand that these pages are written by people who most often have no experience with these breeds.

And second, you have to understand bite statistics. All bites are recorded per breed. That means any dog that is a K9 is included in that bite stat. Criminal runs, gets bit, goes to the hospital, breed is recorded. A sport dog takes a chunk out of a helper with a bad bite. Hospital, breed recorded. "Why" is not recorded.

There are unstable dogs in all breeds. For a dog to turn on it's owner has little to do with the breed and everything to do with the mental stability of the dog and the ability of the owner to read and manage an unstable dog. 

And finally, I trip over my dogs all the time and have never had one bite me for stepping on my foot. I've seen a baby fall on my girl in a high stress environment. She yelped and jumped away. A stable dog is not going to bite someone for stepping on their foot. That is a ridiculous statement to make.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

I thi k it depends on your definition of "turn on"...NO dog just unpredictably decides to put holes in their owner one day. The cases people claim as that are always either a dominant dog who is lovely until you try to make him do something he doesn't want to (or you do something he doesn't like), and he --reasonably, in his mind! -- corrects you for it, or a fearful dog who is pushed beyond his limits. 

GSDs are a senstive, emotional, intense, incredibly smart breed. They're not one to make a lot of mistakes with, or to permissively spoil, or fail to provide strong leadership to.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

GSDs are among the most loyal of breeds, and most truly want to please their people. With the exception of play-biting (GSD pups are mouthy!), I can't imagine my shepherd ever biting me on purpose. That said, GSDs are not a casual breed, to put in the backyard and forget. Like all large, protective and powerful breeds, they need training, exercise, and consistency. Find your pup/dog at a reputable breeder or rescue, and enroll him or her in some local obedience classes. If you are a serious, informed owner, you shouldn't have any problems.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> It's not articles, it's lists. This isn't about you or your opinion. This is what people find on the Internet when they search things like dangerous dogs or dogs most likely to bite, etc. This is new owners or people doing research on the breed, this is what people are seeing that don't own GSDs. Right or wrong, truth or myth, it is out there.
> 
> As an owner of the breed I won't say it's a myth because I know they are powerful dogs. I don't know where the list comes from or what statistics they are looking at to determine it, but it's coming from somewhere. I've been bit(on accident in the middle of a fight) and I can say that within a split second I probably needed stitches and I'm talking a bite and instant release once the dog realized it was me and not the other dog. This bite was not reported and I'm sure that most in these cases aren't, which is how it should be. I can't possibly imagine the damage that could be done by a GSD that bites down and holds. They can do serious damage and in seconds.


That is not what OP is asking. OP stated their wife read about GSDs were a top breed to attack their owners, not bite perceived threats. There is no comparison of dogs that turn on their owners and dogs that bite other people. If you had read my full comment, I stated I did google the topic and only came up with two articles, both of which were lists, stating GSDs were likely to turn on their owners. How you translate what shows up on google to being my opinioin, well, I just don't know. 

An accidental bite can happen by any breed, a deliberate attack on an owner is a whole other ball game and is not to be compared.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Magwart said:


> Actually, there's some research I've posted before by vet behaviorists who found certain training methods _are _more likely to elicit handler bites. All of the methods that had that connection in the study were aversive and caused the dogs to feel a need to defend themselves from their owners. It was not breed specific. So....the easy take-away from that is that idiots who hurt and scare dogs under the guise of "correction" may create dogs that bite.
> 
> Most of us who have created strong bonds with our dogs have trained them in ways that create a rock-solid foundation of trust. Focus on your bond, and forming that trust, and everything else will follow.


I hate to impose on you, but could you possibly post this information again or PM it to me or even refer the thread? I would be very interested in reading about this.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There have been several trainers that have discussed dogs can "come up the leash at you" and a bite is a possibility. This has been mentioned when corrections are made using a choke or prong collar. 

I respect the potential for a bite with any dog I own. I also feel confident that I know enough about that dog that I will not bumble into territory that could trigger a bite. Corrections are fair and honest and not prolonged and then life goes on. My dog knows that though she messes up from time to time, I never have anger in my heart when the correction is made - only teaching. If I'm too angry to teach - I walk away. 

Bonding builds trust but it's not some kind of wall to protect against bites from our dogs in all situations. Bonding allows communication that can avoid conflict and leadership is absolutely necessary. 

I have never been bitten by any of my dogs, but I'll never discount the possibility. If I do something very wrong and stupid with my dog that stresses them to the point where their instinct comes in - I can expect a bite.


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## faith5 (Dec 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Tell your wife this
> 
> I did rescue for years, fostered countless dogs, used to scope puppy mills/farms. I have pulled some pretty messed up dogs and been bitten, a lot. Went in to remove some small furry dogs and got bitten multiple times, fostered a lab cross and had my arm chewed up, trying to help some mastiff cross got me a hole through my hand. Trying to rescue a male Chow got me a hole in my calf. Cutting the cage wire away from a young male Shepherds foot got me kisses. Comforting a Shepherd bitch dying in labor from a bleed, got me kisses. Lifting a young female Shepherd out of the cage she had been born in got me kisses, and cuddles
> I have been bitten by GSD's, but some of the worst rescues I helped with were Shepherds and I never got anything but kisses.
> ...


Those are some really beautiful images of hope.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi Dccurtis,

I think you've already given your wife the most honest answer you'll find. *Any* dog has the potential to make choices and/or bite. Just like *any* child can grow up into an adult that drinks and drives, deals drugs, or deliberately assaults someone.

Instead of constantly fearing what all dogs (or children) might grow into, it's healthy and productive to focus on building a relationship and raising a great dog from Day #1. I think we would all lose our minds if we dwelt in all of the "what-ifs?". Stack the deck in your favor, do lots of research, train-train-train, reach out and build a support network of knowledgeable GSD mentors.

My only other thought is to make sure that you and your spouse are on the same page, when it comes to adding a dog to your home. There are a variety of threads on this forum posted by husbands/wives wrapped up in giant arguments about their dogs. Much easier to make decisions about timing and responsibility before there's a sharp-toothed, clever puppy staring up at you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> Here is the link that came up first when I *googledhttp://www*.dognotebook.com/15-dangerous-dog-breeds-most-likely-to-turn-on-their-owners/ I hope it worked.
> 
> I don't think the actual stats indicate turning on owners, just bite stats. So it was just the headline. I did try to find who wrote the article because honestly, so much bunk is out there and misleadingly titled just to get people to click on the site.
> 
> ...


If you click on preview, you can check the hyper link before you post. The http part was to close to google and broke the link but copy and past worked. 

On that particular list I have/had #2,#10 and #21 they were all "trained" and understood the "concept of NO." I had no problems, save as noted with # 2 and that was not directed towards me. 

If you could get straight answers from the people/dogs that helped "comprise" that list you would see a "pattern" of "owner" behaviour/mismanagement .


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

I'm going to go against the gain and say make sure you do your research on what type of dog you're bringing home (genetically, pedigree etc). I know every one says it depends on training, trust, bond etc but like everything else genetics come into play. 

I absolutely trust my dog, train with fair and correct corrections, we have a great bond, he's very social and outgoing but the sharpness and potential for handler aggression is there partly because of his pedigree. It's something that I'm very aware of when we are training and he is in drive.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

OP, as others have said, any dog if mistreated and improperly trained, can turn on its owner...the difference with a GSD perhaps is that due its size and abilities (both perceived and real) people are a lot more likely to postulate and opine on a GSD turning than a cocker spaniel. 

I do recall reading a study showing that GSD's are far more likely than the average dog to have a bite incident (not counting police/mil K9's and dog sports and protection duty). I'd have to dig it up to recall the specifics, but given the breed's relative popularity in the US and abroad, and given that there more than a few irresponsible owners out there (which is the case for numerous breeds), it shouldn't come as a total surprise that there is the potential for problems with GSD's if raised improperly.

Your wife has no reason to be afraid, but certainly it doesn't hurt to be fully aware of the breed and its qualities. Find a good breeder with nice stable parents. When you get your pup, there are different theories on training, but so long as the end result is that the dog knows you're in charge and he/she works for you, everything should be fine.

They're awesome dogs and great companions. But even the more mellow, non-working lines are quite a handful compared to most other breeds. I think because this a GSD forum, many people here, myself included forget that from time to time. In our minds, something like a Belgian Malinois or some extremely territorial guardian dog is for an "advanced" owner/trainer while a GSD is suitable for "beginners." The reality is a GSD requires a good deal of patience, knowledge, and experience of its owner...not trying to dissuade you OP, but certainly it doesn't hurt to go into this with both eyes open.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If a dog turns on its owner, either the dog or the owner is screwed up. A GSd will make it onto the news, not so much a Chihuahua.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

gaia_bear said:


> I'm going to go against the gain and say make sure you do your research on what type of dog you're bringing home (genetically, pedigree etc). I know every one says it depends on training, trust, bond etc but like everything else genetics come into play.
> 
> I absolutely trust my dog, train with fair and correct corrections, we have a great bond, he's very social and outgoing but the sharpness and potential for handler aggression is there partly because of his pedigree. It's something that I'm very aware of when we are training and he is in drive.


 I don't really view "that" as going against the grain?? 

If a dog is not genetically "sound" you won't have a good outcome. But some owners get confused between "genetically unsound" and "too much dog for me??" 

People "need" to be honest with their "breeders" when seeking a "serious" "breed." Not all "breeds" go for the Lab "thing."

Sometimes people don't get the dog they "need" they get the dog they "paid for" and if "issues" show up ... they don't know how to "deal"?? 

If people are "honest" with a breeder about their "expectations" and their "abilities" and get the right match for them in a "puppy" and "train" their puppy, then they shouldn't have to worry about getting all bit up and stuff.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Most GSDs do not turn on their owners. 

Owners sometimes get bit by their GSD. 

Most actual GSD bites require some form of medical attention: stitches, tetnus shot, antibiotics, sometimes a drain. They are big dogs with big teeth and people are more likely to seek medical attention from a dog that is big and has big teeth. 

This is probably where the site got their information from. ER room visits/ doctor visits concerning dog bites.

A simple bite does not equal "turning on the owner." 

If a GSD "turned" on the owners as a regular thing, than you would see people daily/weekly being killed by their GSDs. Because GSDs are owned by every age group, and it doesn't take that much for a 70 or 80 year old person to die from being attacked by a formidable dog. Younger people than that have died by dog attacks. Very few have died from GSD attacks. Because they really, really aren't that kind of dog. Again, if they were, you would be hearing about deaths all the time. 

Owners sometimes get bit when they have the wrong type of dog for the wrong owner with the wrong training method, like if you have a very dominant/independent/hard dog with a mousy, weak owner, and some yayhoo trainer tells her to alpha roll the dog. Good way to get bit. The dog isn't turning on you, it is defending itself, because it has zero respect for you as its owner/master, and you are doing something totally wacked out. But this is really not common either. 

Most GSDs bite a family member when they are in pain, and something the family member is doing is likely going to cause pain. Some when they are terribly afraid -- weak nerves. Some when they have resource guarding issues, that have not been addressed properly. And sometimes when there is a dog fight, people get in the way, and it is actually an accident. 

Getting a pup from a good breeder, and then taking that dog to classes and building a relationship with the dog with clear boundaries, rewards, etc. will generally eliminate all probability of ever being bitten by your dog. Which leaves just the possibility of getting in between your dog and another dog. And, that possibility exists from any dog you might own.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> I don't really view "that" as going against the grain??
> 
> If a dog is not genetically "sound" you won't have a good outcome. But some owners get confused between "genetically unsound" and "too much dog for me??"
> 
> ...


For some reason I feel like I need to defend myself against this post...

I got the exact dog I needed for my "temperament" and knew what I was getting myself into when I got a dog from said breeder, they have a reputation for breeding harder dogs. Raino didn't simply hand me a dog, he questioned me, questioned those I already trained with..not someone who just gives a puppy to the first person in line with cash in hand. He's a rock solid dog, just a very challenging one. Looking for a lab...hardly. 

Is he a lot of dog, yes. Can I handle him, most definitely. We are well matched and the beauty of going with a reputable breeder is I have someone that has been there every step of our journey. 

My experience with his "aggressiveness" is in training only..I don't worry about getting bit but am well aware it's a possibility...at home he's a completely different dog. It's called "balance". 

Just thought I would offer a different perspective.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

gaia_bear said:


> For some reason I feel like I need to defend myself against this post...
> 
> I got the exact dog I needed for my "temperament" and knew what I was getting myself into when I got a dog from said breeder, they have a reputation for breeding harder dogs. Raino didn't simply hand me a dog, he questioned me, questioned those I already trained with..not someone who just gives a puppy to the first person in line with cash in hand. He's a rock solid dog, just a very challenging one. Looking for a lab...hardly.
> 
> ...


Sorry I was not attacking you???.

I was/am in full agreement with you! Others don't do what you did/do and when "they" got the dog they "said" they wanted and "issues" show up, "they" often don't know how to cope.

No disrespect intended, my bad.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Most GSDs do not turn on their owners.
> 
> Owners sometimes get bit by their GSD.
> 
> ...


Just gonna say yep, breaking up a fight is how I got stitches! But I was trying to pry Rocky's jaws open! 

It was like having my fingers in a White Hot Vise! Not a recommended approach to break up a dog fight! Got stitches on that one! o:

Most likely that is why (when dealing with aggression issues) I always recommend a drag leash?? I did not need "leerburgh" to understand the value of that advice! School of hard knocks as it were.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Heartandsoul, I'd take anything on that site with a large grain of salt. Any site that makes you click through page after page for a paragraph at a time...they aren't really concerned about quality of content, but rather quantity of content. Reason? The pages are full of ads. More ads viewed, more money a site gets. That site has profit well before content quality. I'm glad I didn't have to go past the second page to find the gsd...it was painful to read. "The America Pit Bull Terrier is known to bite when provoked or precieves a threat." You don't freaking say!? Who would imagine any dog acting that way? Terrible dogs do. My dog speaks softly and expresses concern for any disagreements and offers to discuss things over a cup of tea to resolve any issues, and if unable to come to an agreement will simply agree to disagree. That's how a safe dog behaves. /sarcasm


But seriously, to the OP, a dog has pretty much 3 ways to communicate when it needs to do so quickly: whine, bark, and bite. A dog will bite if it is hurt, fearful, has no other options left (such as whines/barks being ignored), or simply doesn't know how to handle/react to a situation. This is why I dislike bark collars...the only thing a dog has left is to communicate physically. As others have said, if the dog knows what 'no' means, you won't have barking issues.

Teach it early that human skin is not something to bite on. Even though it doesn't hurt when he's small, he may be biting hard in terms of what he can. If that carries over to when he's a lot bigger...that 80% strength bite is going to hurt. A lot. So whenever you get any nibble: "OOWWWW!" Be dramatic about it. Make it known. Remove your hand and momentarily end play/ignore him. My dog will occasionally give the super tiniest, most careful, slow nibble (it's really cute how diligent he is trying to be) and I'll still do the overdramatic "OOOWWW!" and then he'll quickly let go and start licking the "boo-boo."

Along with things to reach early...get him used to being touched. I don't mean being pet. Touch/examine his ears. Examine his feet. Open his mouth. Touch his teeth. Trim his nails. Get him used to having different collars put on/off. Baths. Drying him off (especially his feet and legs! If it is rainy out, you'll want to wipe him down before letting him through the house). You may even want to get him used to eye drops, in the event he gets an eye infection. Some dogs have no issues with eye drops and just sit there...some dogs...they will resist like crazy. Anyone who has to treat your dog for anything, or even those who groom him (if you like others to do it), will be thankful of your dog being so calm.

A note on biting and care: my girlfriend works at an animal hospital and says the gsd is one to be careful about. Their behavior is generally fine, especially compared to some dogs (Corgis seem to have a switch that goes off once inside the building), but they tend to give very little warning of when they are no longer comfortable. Minimal whine/growl when not liking something before resorting to a snap. That's not all gsd. But keep in mind, the place isn't a place solely for high caliber top pedigree gsd dogs only. It's a place that sees dogs from all sorts of quality owners (good to bad), who received their dog from all sorts of breeders (good to bad).

Why am I bringing this up? Because you can either be the guy with a poorly raised dog from some random backyard breeder, or the guy with a dog from a good breeder and raised it properly. What you put into the dog will dictate how they end up being. Having the dog that everyone envies takes plenty of work, effort, and patience--but it sure does feel good when you're out and everyone is marveling at your dog. Took my dog for a walk this weekend in a downtown area and lots of people gushed over how well he behaved & listened. Proud daddy moments. 

A gsd will only turn on the owner of it if is forced to do so (poor treatment and the likes). It is possible for you to be bitten while training or playing...but it'll be an accident, and likely 99% your fault. The dog's mouth is the dog's hand, in a sense. Sticking your hand near his may result in an accidental bite. Maybe small, maybe enough to actually hurt/break the skin. If a gsd dog wanted to hurt you...your hand will be missing. Go back a couple pages in this forum and look for a thread by voodoobomb (I think that's the account name--voodoo is in it) and read what happened to the guy who attacked her, without realizing her gsd was there. THAT'S what happens if a powerful dog wants to hurt you. And also, take note how her dog was extremely hostile towards the attacker, but super mellow and friendly towards the police officers that showed up. You'll want to raise your gsd to be properly socialized to know that not all people are bad. This goes for all dogs, but especially for herding & guarding breeds. They are protective of their family & property, and naturally suspicious of strange people: suspicious, but not hostile. You don't want your dog thinking all strange people are bad due to no interaction during growing up, and then thinking the little girl scout selling cookies at your front door is a threat.


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## Saito (Dec 3, 2015)

Here's a cute little video of how our male cat is when we do his nails. This is how chill your pets can be when you start things early.  


http://vid590.photobucket.com/album...bile Uploads/Snapchat-2387680281344511691.mp4


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## 4Flynn (Feb 11, 2016)

*You raise a dog like a child.*



dccurtis said:


> Hello all, I'm hoping to have my pup in a few weeks and my wife keeps coming up with questions. She read that GSDs are in the top 20 breeds that turn on their folks. I tried to assure her that any dog could do that. Is it true that you have to be more careful with them or is it just coincidental. Thanks ... :halogsd:


It is very important that you realize raising a dog is just like raising a child. If you allow aggression and permit him to test you, you are acknowledging him as having authority over you. If he ever growls over food, toys or space you pin him and do not allow him up until several minutes after he stops struggling. This asserts your dominance over him and shows him that you are the pack leader. When dogs turn on owners they are asserting themselves over the owner, they are not attacking them, it can just be very rough. That is why you must assert yourself over them as they are being raised and never allow them to gain any sense of authority. Take charge. Once they are grown and know that they are part of the pack, but are not the leader, it is instinct that they will defend their family (or pack) to the death. This also makes them fantastically affectionate and protective of other members of the family. You just have to raise them correctly.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

4Flynn said:


> It is very important that you realize raising a dog is just like raising a child. If you allow aggression and permit him to test you, you are acknowledging him as having authority over you. If he ever growls over food, toys or space you pin him and do not allow him up until several minutes after he stops struggling. This asserts your dominance over him and shows him that you are the pack leader. When dogs turn on owners they are asserting themselves over the owner, they are not attacking them, it can just be very rough. That is why you must assert yourself over them as they are being raised and never allow them to gain any sense of authority. Take charge. Once they are grown and know that they are part of the pack, but are not the leader, it is instinct that they will defend their family (or pack) to the death. This also makes them fantastically affectionate and protective of other members of the family. You just have to raise them correctly.


Please don't do any of this. Dogs are not children they are dogs. Forcible pinning a pup can do serious damage both physically and mentally. A soft pup could be permanently traumatized, a hard pup will eventually fight back and with the wrong dog you are setting up for a serious fight. The whole alpha theory is bunk. Treat a pup with love and fairness and they will grow healthy and whole. Certainly correct challenges to authority but not with brute force and never with a baby puppy. Your dog is not asserting itself, it's being pissy because you are doing something it doesn't like.

Contrary to popular belief our dogs are not trying to take over the world


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

4Flynn said:


> If he ever growls over food, toys or space you pin him and do not allow him up until several minutes after he stops struggling. This asserts your dominance over him and shows him that you are the pack leader.


While I can attest to how important it is to be considered the leader (esp.with a GSD), might I suggest a tweak to this? I would not pin for growling. You don't want to disable the warning system! A dog has few ways to communicate displeasure, and if you punish out the growl, you can end up with bites without warning. Granted, pinning is what mama dog does...all pups are wired for it an accept it without stress (unlike hitting, which is a primate behaviour they have no frame of reference for) but I would save that for the biggest offenses, and give growling a pass. 

Consider a growl to be your warning that your leadership is in question, and earn your social dominance in a nonviolent psychological way--through NILIF, yielding exercises, claiming space, consistently enforcing commands, lots of obedience practice, not leaving resources like high-value toys and food lying around (because they belong to you & he should work for them), teaching indirect access and self-control, projecting confidence and leader 'energy', displaying aloofness during comings and goings, and utilizing social isolation when necessary. Bluffing your way through physically, without winning their mind, can backfire. ;-o Psychological dominance, however, is a gold mine...it prevents most behavioural problems right off the bat, and gives you a secure, trusting, and responsive dog.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

4Flynn said:


> It is very important that you realize raising a dog is just like raising a child. If you allow aggression and permit him to test you, you are acknowledging him as having authority over you. If he ever growls over food, toys or space you pin him and do not allow him up until several minutes after he stops struggling. This asserts your dominance over him and shows him that you are the pack leader. When dogs turn on owners they are asserting themselves over the owner, they are not attacking them, it can just be very rough. That is why you must assert yourself over them as they are being raised and never allow them to gain any sense of authority. Take charge. Once they are grown and know that they are part of the pack, but are not the leader, it is instinct that they will defend their family (or pack) to the death. This also makes them fantastically affectionate and protective of other members of the family. You just have to raise them correctly.


I get what you are saying, I think. The GSD is definitely the type of breed where if you give an inch, they'll try to take a mile. They tend to be more assertive and confident than other breeds, and with their high intelligence it can make them a bit more intimidating to a novice trainer/owner. So the owner has to be very deliberate about establishing boundaries, the pack hierarchy, and a well-planned training regimen.

That said, I would be very cautious about advising other owners, especially on this forum, to use physical corrections on a GSD, especially the "alpha roll" you made reference to. An e-collar and pinch collar, if used properly, can be valuable tools and yes they do inflict some shock/pain, but they do provide the trainer some standoff.

An alpha roll provides the owner no stand-off, the dog knows exactly who is responsible for the correction and if the dog reacts to the person doing he/she has a high chance of getting bit. I've heard stories and seen pictures of LE/Mil dog handlers getting bit badly by their dogs after trying to do an alpha roll. Any kind of direct physical correction by the owner, IMHO, is potentially dangerous and I think a good number of GSD trainers advise against it for that reason. And I'm not saying all this because I believe in all positive training, because I don't; I think corrections, even something like pinch or e-collar, have their place given the appropriate circumstances. An alpha roll sets the potential for a confrontation that won't be good for either the dog or the owner.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

4Flynn said:


> It is very important that you realize raising a dog is just like raising a child. If you allow aggression and permit him to test you, you are acknowledging him as having authority over you. If he ever growls over food, toys or space you pin him and do not allow him up until several minutes after he stops struggling. This asserts your dominance over him and shows him that you are the pack leader. When dogs turn on owners they are asserting themselves over the owner, they are not attacking them, it can just be very rough. That is why you must assert yourself over them as they are being raised and never allow them to gain any sense of authority. Take charge. Once they are grown and know that they are part of the pack, but are not the leader, it is instinct that they will defend their family (or pack) to the death. This also makes them fantastically affectionate and protective of other members of the family. You just have to raise them correctly.


Then you can have a dog that urinates in submission or bites out of fear...
Its astonishing how detrimental this old way of thinking is. Breaking an animals spirit is akin to beating a child. 
Dogs bite owners because owners don't take the time to 1. Train properly 2. Learn their dog and 3. People get lazy. If you train, bond, and take the time daily your dog will be loyal and won't bite the owner. Essentially, don't just get a dog to say you have a dog.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Then you can have a dog that urinates in submission or bites out of fear...
> Its astonishing how detrimental this old way of thinking is.* Breaking an animals spirit is akin to beating a child. *


While I agree breaking a dog's spirit is not a good way to train it, I think perhaps you're taking your comparison a bit to the extreme.

Dogs in a litter/pack alpha roll each other all the time. And they play bite, nip, growl/snarl a bit...it's all posturing to establish the pack hierarchy. I don't think a dog's spirit is necessarily "broken" when it gets rolled by another dog in its group or by its pack leader (owner). It's a means of communication and role development more than anything else. 

So no, it's not akin to beating a child.
Firstly dogs aren't people, and as much as I love them I don't see them on equal footing.
Secondly, actually beating a dog (or starving it and/or neglecting its health) is a much more valid example of breaking its spirit.

The reason I don't think alpha rolls are a good training tool is because if the owner keeps using it as a correction over and over again, the dog may get frustrated or defensive and react to the owner (snarling, growling, snapping and perhaps biting). When a rolled dog reacts to another dog rolling it, there is some back-and-forth between the dogs, but usually the two will work things out before the confrontation becomes violent (I'm talking about two dogs that are part of a pack and live with each other). When a rolled dog reacts to a human rolling it, the human doesn't have the reflexes (or the jaws) to safely counter the dog, which is likely why some handlers have gotten hurt using this method. 

The handler/owner exposes himself/herself to potential harm and the dog learns the wrong lessons. I don't even know if the LE and Mil K9 units still use that method. It seems like a whole lot of risk for very little reward, especially given that there are other, safer methods out there.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

The behavioral research is crystal clear that force-based, confrontational training is the kind of training most likely to trigger a bite -- the kind 4Flynn recommends is among _the most dangerous _studied (alpha rolls resulted in a bite rate as high as 31%).
Applied Animal Behaviour Science 117 (2009) 47–54 

That kind of dominance-based training is like that "flat earth" theory of dog training -- totally outdated, debunked by modern behavioral science, but still adhered to by many who either don't keep up with research or don't want to believe the science is right.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

Dalko43 said:


> It seems like a whole lot of risk for very little reward, especially given that there are other, safer methods out there.


Yes. And here is the thing about the natural "alpha roll". It is OFFERED by the submissive dog, not forced by the dominant one. Forcibly rolling your dog sends a different message. 

Fwiw, pinning and rolling are two different things, at least as practiced by dogs and wolves. Even when pinning, you have to have the RIGHT to correct your dog...or else you may get bitten.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

As a side note, for those intererested in an accurate picture of social dominance in canines (there are an awful lot of misconceptions out there, both by people who use it, and people who don't see it at all or think it is "dangerous and aggressive" instead of safe, nonviolent, and highly effective)...here is some further reading, with lots of links to proper technique, field scientists weighing in, etc. Dominance overview


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There are many more components to wolf pack behavior than rolling or pinning. They are "taught" communications by pack members and that includes many vocalizations and forms of body language. 

Until we learn to "speak wolf" fluently - it would be strange to think that extracting one component of their language would be effective for anything. Especially when it is not "taught" to our dogs.

Below is a picture of my F1 dog/wolf cross. We had just put him in the puppy pen with two 3/4 cross pups. You can see the attempt of one of the 3/4's to put my pup in a submissive position. My pup was not with the pack long enough to "learn" this is what was wanted. The breeder/wildlife biologist pulled our pup out quickly saying that a puppy fight was imminent because there was a communication break. You can see my pup resisting and leaning into the pup trying to put him in the submissive position.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Solo93 said:


> Yes. And here is the thing about the natural "alpha roll". It is OFFERED by the submissive dog, not forced by the dominant one. Forcibly rolling your dog sends a different message.


It is *offered* by the submissive dog and it is *demanded* by the dominant dog. It's give-and-take between two dogs as they cement their roles within a pack.

Forcibly rolling a dog that doesn't want to be submissive can lead to a reaction. A dog is much better equipped to read and deal with that reaction than is a human...that was my point.




Stonevintage said:


> There are many more components to wolf pack behavior than rolling or pinning. *They are "taught" communications by pack members and that includes many vocalizations and forms of body language. *


These aren't "taught" behaviors. They are instinctual. No one taught my family's two dogs how to do that. The dominant one rolls the submissive one when they play.

Some dogs are more in tune with these instincts (and pack structure) than others, but these are instincts and genetics at work.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> There are many more components to wolf pack behavior than rolling or pinning. They are "taught" communications by pack members and that includes many vocalizations and forms of body language.
> 
> Until we learn to "speak wolf" fluently - it would be strange to think that extracting one component of their language would be effective for anything. Especially when it is not "taught" to our dogs.


Excellent post. Context is so important! Everything is taken within the overall framework of the relationship.


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## shedogs (Feb 24, 2016)

*Aggression*

I agree with most these posts. I always socialize and raise my dogs in my home in a very loving environment. Some breeds and some lines have temperments you can manage some you cannot.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> It is *offered* by the submissive dog and it is *demanded* by the dominant dog. It's give-and-take between two dogs as they cement their roles within a pack.
> 
> Forcibly rolling a dog that doesn't want to be submissive can lead to a reaction. A dog is much better equipped to read and deal with that reaction than is a human...that was my point.
> 
> ...


Perhaps some dogs are more in tune with these instincts. Play behavior is different than dominance behavior - roles are often exchanged in play.

Have you ever seen a dog skirmish where one dog pins the other but the "pin-ee" does not know how to show submission? The fight continues because the expected behavior "submission" is not shown locking the dominant dog into repeated attacks - eventually the submissive dog will learn if he lays still - the attack stops.


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## shedogs (Feb 24, 2016)

I agree that each situation/dog is different. It is either genetics or environment-had only one dog turn on me my in my whole life of multiple dogs. He was severely abused by his previous owners.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Have you ever seen a dog skirmish where one dog pins the other but the "pin-ee" does not know how to show submission? The fight continues because the expected behavior "submission" is not shown locking the dominant dog into repeated attacks - eventually the submissive dog will learn if he lays still - the attack stops.


I don't want to hijack too far, but I AM curious how your breeder recommended you teach your pup the social skill of submission to othet dogs, since she removed him before the other pups could teach him? I'm not saying she was wrong, just wondering what her method was. Most people let them teach each other, practicing the give & take. 

I *have* seen dogs who were clueless about their own language. In fact, some folks prefer that, instead focusing on teaching them ours.

What you described is also how human kids can get mauled, btw. Dog "corrects" the kid, kid screams and thrashes (instead of submitting), dog is forced to keep correcting in an attempt to get its point across. Most dog bites involve this language gap.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Perhaps some dogs are more in tune with these instincts. Play behavior is different than dominance behavior - roles are often exchanged in play.
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog skirmish where one dog pins the other but the "pin-ee" does not know how to show submission? The fight continues because the expected behavior "submission" is not shown locking the dominant dog into repeated attacks - eventually the submissive dog will learn if he lays still - the attack stops.


At the risk of derailing this thread, everything I've read and watched has suggested that canine play is an outlet for packs to exert energy, bond, and to reinforce their standing within the pack. You can go watch a documentary on wolves where the pack members will nip, snarl at, roll, bare teeth and even fight, all actions that would be considered "excessive" to a normal dog owner. It is not unusual for a wolf to avoid submission in the face of a would-be aggressor/dominant one. The outcome is usually a dead wolf, a packless wolf or a wolf who readjusts his behaviors and role within the pack.

Dogs obviously aren't wolves, but as pack-oriented animals they share many of the same instincts. If us dog owners were to let submissive and dominant dogs work things out on their own, we would probably see similar outcomes to what the wolves experience in the wild. But we as owners usually don't let encounters progress that far without intervening.

Back on topic, I think that my main point (that alpha rolling is not a good training technique) is in agreement with most of the posters on this thread.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Dalko43 - My comment was for the benefit of 4Flynn. I find it hard not to respond when that kind of advise is suggested here. 

You and I can just agree to disagree. IMO documentaries are helpful but again, you are seeing a captive pack with behaviors explained as that producer chooses to explain them. Much of what has been shown in documentaries and books that are over 5 years old has been debunked where alpha dominance/leadership is concerned. 

Training and Behavior

This is an article that explains the reversal and the most current understanding of pack structure and dominance. 4Flynn - I hope you give this a read


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Dalko43 - My comment was for the benefit of 4Flynn. I find it hard not to respond when that kind of advise is suggested here.
> 
> You and I can just agree to disagree. IMO documentaries are helpful but again, you are seeing a captive pack with behaviors explained as that producer chooses to explain them. Much of what has been shown in documentaries and books that are over 5 years old has been debunked where alpha dominance/leadership is concerned.
> 
> ...


I am aware of the major change in how domesticated dogs are approached and trained that has taken place over the last 2 decades.

The documentaries I was referring to weren't about captive packs, but rather free-ranging wild ones.

I have not heard of any wide-spread consensus in the scientific and training community that alpha dominance and pack structure is no longer a prevalent aspect of canine interactions (both wild and domesticated). You can throw out words like "debunked" all you want, but you're basing your argument off of other peoples' opinions and claims (via your linked website). The trainers I have worked with have all consistently emphasized that pack structure and proper relationships are an important foundation for training your dog.

The only people I have heard talk about how dominance and pack structure isn't important are the trainers who believe in using pure positive training techniques. Those techniques don't work for every dog, especially of the working type, and quite honestly, I hear just as much bad/dangerous advice coming from that camp as I do hear coming from the heavy-handed camp.

So yeah, we'll agree to disagree on that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Dalko43 - Your argument is not with my opinions but with the scientific community involved with wolf research for the last 70 years or so. Dr. David Mech would be who your argument is with. His writings have been like the "wolf bible" to me for the last 40 years so it will be hard for me to trade his experience with any dog trainers. He's the one that used the term "debunked" and he used it in describing his own work from previous decades in explaining why he reversed his opinion on pack structure and hierarchy/dominance. He has many books and articles if you would like further information. No one is suggesting PO.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Dalko43 - Your argument is not with my opinions but with the scientific community involved with wolf research for the last 70 years or so. Dr. David Mech would be who your argument is with. His writings have been like the "wolf bible" to me for the last 40 years so it will be hard for me to trade his experience with any dog trainers. He's the one that used the term "debunked" and he used it in describing his own work from previous decades in explaining why he reversed his opinion on pack structure and hierarchy/dominance. He has many books and articles if you would like further information. No one is suggesting PO.


 
We are well down the rabbit hole at this point, but 1 scientist revising his stance does not equate to a scientific, community-wide consensus. Nor does it necessarily mean anything was "debunked."

There are dissenting and differing opinions on a wide variety of scientific topics. 

But thank you for providing his name; I'll check him out and see what he has to say.

Also my bad for implying you were PO. I have run into PO trainers previously who used this kind of "pack" neutral language. The trainer's said that dog training was a "cooperative partnership" not a hierarchy; I rolled my eyes at that but went through with the training, and sure enough by the end of the training she strongly recommended that I find another trainer to work with my dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Dalko43 said:


> While I agree breaking a dog's spirit is not a good way to train it, I think perhaps you're taking your comparison a bit to the extreme.


 Not literally obviously, but the effects of an angry, larger human making strange sounds has the same effect of permanently scarring a child or a dog.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

thinking about the OP.

My vet once told me that small dogs actually have more bites, but since big dog bites are... wait for it.. bigger, they're reported more often.

The only real dog bite I've ever received was from a miniature poodle we were trying to help rescue.


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## Solo93 (Feb 16, 2016)

Umm...about Mech... No, he definitely does NOT deny social dominance. He is very puzzled why dog trainers keep insisting that he has. He has published papers as late as 2010 talking about the importance of dominance. More here, clarifying Dr. Mech's position as well as other field scientists. dominance quotes from scientists 

I think the misunderstanding is in some folks' erroneous definition of "dominance". Packs are not maintained by *violence*--but they are maintained by leadership, and have a (flexible) hierarchy. Once the pack structure has been established, very few overt dominance displays are present. What does occur is more subtle,and easy for people to miss, especially with less dramatic, physically modified, and less active domestic dogs (vs wolves or primitive, natural dogs). Unless you gave birth to your dog ;-) then domestic dogs also live "unnaturally" in mixed groups and not in family units (where the social order forms naturally based on pups deferring to adults).


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Solo93 said:


> Umm...about Mech... No, he definitely does NOT deny social dominance. He is very puzzled why dog trainers keep insisting that he has. He has published papers as late as 2010 talking about the importance of dominance. More here, clarifying Dr. Mech's position as well as other field scientists. dominance quotes from scientists
> 
> I think the misunderstanding is in some folks' erroneous definition of "dominance". Packs are not maintained by *violence*--but they are maintained by leadership, and have a (flexible) hierarchy. Once the pack structure has been established, very few overt dominance displays are present. What does occur is more subtle,and easy for people to miss, especially with less dramatic, physically modified, and less active domestic dogs (vs wolves or primitive, natural dogs). Unless you gave birth to your dog ;-) then domestic dogs also live "unnaturally" in mixed groups and not in family units (where the social order forms naturally based on pups deferring to adults).


Exactly - it is rather the family structure and "aging out" of the elders that allows for change. The flexible hierarchy was big changer for me - but then the old adage "respect your parents and your relatives" is nothing new I don't see people giving birth to dogs in the near future.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

zyppi said:


> thinking about the OP.
> 
> My vet once told me that small dogs actually have more bites, but since big dog bites are... wait for it.. bigger, they're reported more often.
> 
> The only real dog bite I've ever received was from a miniature poodle we were trying to help rescue.


This makes sense. The only dog I've ever been bitten by was by a chained Cocker Spaniel when I was 9. The dog was trained to be quiet while chained or he would be punished - so there was no warning - the dog just bit me in the stomach.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that being a LEADER will eliminate the need to alpha roll or pin a puppy. I by no means believe in PO training. But I also believe that if a dog is subordinate to you simply because you can alpha roll or pin them. Eventually when they get full grown they will take over as pack leader ( by fighting back). Being a fair, consistent, and confident leader in all aspects is what will earn you the respect to be pack leader. Especially with those working line, dominate minded dogs that will test their boundaries.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Solo93 said:


> Umm...about Mech... No, he definitely does NOT deny social dominance. He is very puzzled why dog trainers keep insisting that he has. He has published papers as late as 2010 talking about the importance of dominance. More here, clarifying Dr. Mech's position as well as other field scientists. dominance quotes from scientists
> 
> I think the misunderstanding is in some folks' erroneous definition of "dominance". Packs are not maintained by *violence*--but they are maintained by leadership, and have a (flexible) hierarchy. Once the pack structure has been established, very few overt dominance displays are present. What does occur is more subtle,and easy for people to miss, especially with less dramatic, physically modified, and less active domestic dogs (vs wolves or primitive, natural dogs). Unless you gave birth to your dog ;-) then domestic dogs also live "unnaturally" in mixed groups and not in family units (where the social order forms naturally based on pups deferring to adults).


Thanks for posting this. Wow, so much misinformation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had a rare opportunity to study wolves in the wild. I have also had hundreds of dogs through my home. I am not a trainer, not an anything.
But here is what I know, from firsthand experience.
At no point have I ever felt a need to overpower a dog and force it to submit. I have watched people do this, I have never seen it work long term. I have seen more dogs misread and mishandled then enough. I rule my home. Not any dog under my care has ever felt fear of me. I have had dogs present their bellies, lick their lips, lick my face, not out of fear but because I was displeased. They crossed a line and they knew it. I don't need to dominate because I am dominant. I can walk in to a room and cross my arms, dogs slink to their beds. I stay calm, I control the resources and I set the schedule. And when they ask my forgiveness they get it. 
Are my dogs well behaved? **** no! they are hooligans, all of them. This is their home. They play, bicker, steal toys, track in mud, drool, fart, roll in nasty things and all manner of nonsense happens. 
A sloppy trainer would have tried to dominate Bud, and Bud would have fought to the bitter end. That dog would walk through **** for me.
A lazy trainer would have pushed Shadow, and she would have shut down and become a fear biter. A cowering, unpredictable mess. She will do anything I want, will try her heart out to please me.
Lex was pushed through obedience, titled at six months, could have certified at 1 year, and was such a wreck that at two years old she was chewing HOLES in herself, but hey, she listened.
People need to stop following programs, stop worrying about who is in charge, stop worrying about theories. 
We need to SEE the animal in front of us, we need to provide THAT dogs needs and GIVE that dog our focus. 
Love, respect and understanding are what builds packs, not bullying and fear.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> I had a rare opportunity to study wolves in the wild. I have also had hundreds of dogs through my home. I am not a trainer, not an anything.
> But here is what I know, from firsthand experience.
> At no point have I ever felt a need to overpower a dog and force it to submit. I have watched people do this, I have never seen it work long term. I have seen more dogs misread and mishandled then enough. I rule my home. Not any dog under my care has ever felt fear of me. I have had dogs present their bellies, lick their lips, lick my face, not out of fear but because I was displeased. They crossed a line and they knew it. I don't need to dominate because I am dominant. I can walk in to a room and cross my arms, dogs slink to their beds. I stay calm, I control the resources and I set the schedule. And when they ask my forgiveness they get it.
> Are my dogs well behaved? **** no! they are hooligans, all of them. This is their home. They play, bicker, steal toys, track in mud, drool, fart, roll in nasty things and all manner of nonsense happens.
> ...


GREAT POST!!! 

Ok, so I am in puppy classes with Quinn, and half the class today was having the puppy go to its mat, sit on its mat, lie on its mat, walk around its mat. Next week, remember your mat... I am so frustrated. I don't care a whit about the mat. I asked the instructor what was the point. She said, for me, nothing. But with the people with house dogs.... I said she IS a house dog. 

If I want the dog out of a room for whatever reason, ie, opening the front door for the mailman, I will have her go through the baby gate to her in out kennel area, and shut the gate behind her. I am not going to send her to her place. I am not going to expect my dog to stay on a rug or mat until I release the dog. I _could _train a dog to this level of obedience. I just don't see the need. I have my dog there so it learns to sit and down and stay and come in the presence of other people and dogs, distractions. If we must do that on or around a mat, well ok, whatever. But it doesn't do anything for me, because I am not going to be doing that at home. 

A long time ago, a trainer wanted me to have the puppy in a 30 minute down stay every day. The first day the dog did it, while I ate my dinner. Good girl! Awesome. We have this down. The second day, she broke the stay about half-way through. So I quickly gave a verbal correction and forced her to stay there for the rest of the 30 minutes, correcting every time she broke. It was crushing. The third day she tucked her tail. She broke her stay many times. The fourth day, when I got the lead, she ran and hid. I realized that something wasn't right with this picture. I let her teach me. I never did another 30 minute nothing with her. She became my best obedience dog, got her CD in three trips in the ring with 3 blue ribbons. We went to a show with no preparation and she got her CGC, doing supervised separation as a 5 minute out of sight down stay. And she finished that first class, that wanted the 30 minute down stay that I refused to do, as the one that everyone said was at the top of the class. She was an awesome dog, but she did not need for me to to force obedience into her.

With all the obedience classes I have attended, you'd think some of it would rub off eventually. Guess not.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:Sabis mom and Selzer


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> GREAT POST!!!
> 
> *Ok, so I am in puppy classes with Quinn, and half the class today was having the puppy go to its mat, sit on its mat, lie on its mat, walk around its mat. Next week, remember your mat... I am so frustrated. I don't care a whit about the mat. I asked the instructor what was the point. She said, for me, nothing. But with the people with house dogs.... I said she IS a house dog. *
> 
> ...


You take an inept or reckless owner, and the right dog, (and that combination is plentiful), and the mat is nothing but a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen. The mat can be a good tool, but it should never replace responsible separation from home visitors as so many are using it. Nothing is perfect, most dogs will break training at some point and time. Risking other people's welfare is not the time or place to take reckless chances.

My dogs are secured before I open any door. If I am concerned about who is at the door, then I have a dog at the door on a sit stay and the door is only cracked open.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You take an inept or reckless owner, and the right dog, (and that combination is plentiful), and the mat is nothing but a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen. The mat can be a good tool, but it should never replace responsible separation from home visitors as so many are using it. Nothing is perfect, most dogs will break training at some point and time. Risking other people's welfare is not the time or place to take reckless chances.
> 
> My dogs are secured before I open any door. If I am concerned about who is at the door, then I have a dog at the door on a sit stay and the door is only cracked open.


Agree. Most of the pups in this class were not working or herding dogs. And, maybe they were using the mat more for times when you want the dog to give you a break, dinner time, annoying puppy putting the ball in your lap during your computer therapy session. Maybe. I'd just put the pup in her area, rather than send her to a mat that I would then have to monitor and correct if she did leave it. I guess I just don't want the dog to be on task more often than necessary. I like a more relaxed atomsphere. Guess maybe I am just lazy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The women is showing good sense and people that don't want to be exposed to other people's dogs ... should have their "right" to do so respected. Most likely she stumbled across one to many* "I thought my dog was friendly people??"*

I avoid them and there dog's, like they're the freaking plague myself. I have "never" said "my dog is friendly" to folks that have asked to pet "Rocky??" No one ever ask, is your dog safe?? To that I would say yes! But "friendly" no, he could care less about people, but that's never been the question??

But yes, he has met a few intrepid "strangers" and has had no problems with being touched by them. By and large he is used to these interchanges (I block and explain) and I do understand that he is good with it. But "they" tend to ask "is your dog friendly??" And my answer would be "NO" (not in the sense that they most likely mean??)

But in anycase no one did anything wrong in the above described encounter by the poster. I just take the extra step to make my dog(s) a non issue for strangers.

And the Wolf dog analogy thing?? I raise and train dogs and puppies not Wolves?? If people wanna go around "Alpha Rolling" there whatever (breed) dog. Then they best be really to deal in the 12 to 18 month range if that 
DOG" decides he doesn't much care for "that" crap anymore?? Best advice ... don't start a battle you're not prepared to deal with.

Just say "NO" to *Alpla Rolling*, dogs is by and large sound advice.


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## clark77494 (Sep 5, 2014)

dccurtis said:


> Hello all, I'm hoping to have my pup in a few weeks and my wife keeps coming up with questions. She read that GSDs are in the top 20 breeds that turn on their folks. I tried to assure her that any dog could do that. Is it true that you have to be more careful with them or is it just coincidental. Thanks ... :halogsd:


I would think the only reason a dog would turn on there owners is that it's not part of the pack. Our GSD has her crate in the master bedroom and sleeps next to us at night. When my wife leaves for work Ginger hops into bed and sleeps beside me. Since Ginger is a rescue dog I signed a contract she would never be a backyard dog. We walk 2-4 miles a day. Once in the morning and once at night. If my schedule is to busy for a walk I take her to a pet ranch so she can get her exercise. Since we have had Ginger she has never shown aggression towards us. On occasion she has lectured us by barking that it's not ok to lock her in the bedroom since the cable guy was afraid of large dogs, or to show her displeasure about something. GSDs are very loyal dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have dogs that spend most of their time in kennels in the back yard, they will never turn on me. 

Dogs turn on owners when they have a screw loose, which can happen with indoor family pets, or dogs outside on a chain, or dogs that roam the farm. If a dog is severely abused it may turn on the abuser, though too many do not do this, and dogs put up with an awful lot of abuse. And, dogs that are seriously injured might bite. 

I think it is far more likely for a weak owner whose dog is given every possible privilege, but little structure and poor if any training and exercise, and is expected to live up to unrealistic expectations, are far more likely to bite a family member than a dog that lives for the most part kenneled outside. 



clark77494 said:


> I would think the only reason a dog would turn on there owners is that it's not part of the pack. Our GSD has her crate in the master bedroom and sleeps next to us at night. When my wife leaves for work Ginger hops into bed and sleeps beside me. Since Ginger is a rescue dog I signed a contract she would never be a backyard dog. We walk 2-4 miles a day. Once in the morning and once at night. If my schedule is to busy for a walk I take her to a pet ranch so she can get her exercise. Since we have had Ginger she has never shown aggression towards us. On occasion she has lectured us by barking that it's not ok to lock her in the bedroom since the cable guy was afraid of large dogs, or to show her displeasure about something. GSDs are very loyal dogs.


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## momtoduke (Sep 29, 2008)

When we first got Duke 8 year ago I battled that same question. He was 4 months old. We had two very young sons one just learning to walk. I wanted a GSD but wanted one that was 8 weeks took me a month to say yes we would take him. Now 81/2 years later we have a 3 year old female (got her at a year old) and 
mourning the loss of our boy as we lost him a week ago. The most loyal, happiest, protecting, truest companion we have ever known. Any dog can bite at anytime but turn on their owners not a chance with a GSD. Get the GSD! I'd be more worried a Pomeranian would turn on me before they would. I had one of those for 19 years.


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