# Obsessed with Cats.



## Kdickson (Apr 21, 2017)

So my GSD is 7 years old. He has had a select few encounters with cats all of which involved chasing and attempted biting. Thankfully he's never actually successfully caught a cat, although came very close once when a stray challenged him to a chase across a very wide open field. 

Me and my girlfriend of 2 years got a new house together and she has a dog and two cats (i just have my dog.) This is our first time living together and the first time my dog has had to live with cats. It's been about a month now, and initial greetings were my dog barking, growling and wanting to chase. I got a muzzle beforehand and we've gradually exposed the cats to him. Spending a lot of time petting the cats behind a baby gate. That, combined with some discipline when he wanted to chase seemed to have gotten the point across that cats are not to be eaten. The past two days I've taken off the muzzle, because it's tearing up the furniture and I wanted to see how he'd act without it.

Problem is, now even though he doesn't want to eat the cats, he seems very interested in following them around and essentially smothering them. It's been two days since we've basically given him free reign on supervised interaction and were talking literally hours of him stating at them under the bed, sitting on a shelf, sitting on the desk. I walked into the room after stepping out for 10 minutes and found my dog had cornered one of the cats and was just right in her face staring. She tried to get around him but he just followed her with his face in hers. Keep in mind this has been just the past couple days without a muzzle. So he has had opportunity to pick them up and start shaking. So it doesn't seem inherently aggressive anymore it just is incredibly obsessive. Still don't trust them home alone together so we keep them separated.

It almost reminds me of how he gets when he catches a reflection off a watch. Just very OCD and very focused on the cats.

Other than keeping them separated when he gets that way, what are some other tricks to do? I've tried calling him to me when he does it, he's reluctant to come but he will..then he'll just stare at the cats from a distance I'm at. 

Only way to get him to completely stop is to take him out of the room and into another room, then recall him several times as he tries to sneak back to the kitties.

I'm at my wits end with this, any ideas are greatly appreciated.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kdickson said:


> *Problem is, now even though he doesn't want to eat the cats, he seems very interested in following them around and essentially smothering them. It's been two days since we've basically given him free reign on supervised interaction and were talking literally hours of him stating at them under the bed, sitting on a shelf, sitting on the desk. I walked into the room after stepping out for 10 minutes and found my dog had cornered one of the cats and was just right in her face staring. She tried to get around him but he just followed her with his face in hers. Keep in mind this has been just the past couple days without a muzzle. So he has had opportunity to pick them up and start shaking. So it doesn't seem inherently aggressive anymore it just is incredibly obsessive.* Still don't trust them home alone together so we keep them separated.


First ask yourself how your GF will feel when your dog "kills or badly injures one of her cats??" Or who will get the blame when the cats get neurotic from being constantly stressed out by living in constant fear and start peeing outside there litter boxes??? Because that is where you are heading??? 

There is only one rule in Cat v Dog relationships *the dog never chases the cat *or in your case harasses! But you do get some credit, you've at least calmed him down. So at this point you could train Place and incorporate a "No Free Roaming in the house policy" for the dog. Inside he should be in "place" or in a "Crate" period. And if he moves from "Place" he should be "Corrected!" And "Corrections" for screwing with the cats .... is what you have not done. And that is why he is "still" screwing with the cats! 

I don't expect my cats to change there lifestyle becasue I get a dog ... it's the dog's "job" to fit in.
I have a "Zero Policy" with dogs screwing with my cats in my house! As my fresh off the street (Breed that shall not be mentioned) found out in 24 hours! When I got her she "apparently" would kill a cat?? I had only four (Cats) at that time, but 24 hours later ... she bowed down to the cats. But I doubt most "owners" could do that??? 

But at this point with this dog train "place" and no "free roaming" indoors and I think ... you should be OK. When you lower the dog's energy ... the cats will be willing to come out, right now the cats understand, that you don't have any control over this beast. 

As for how to ... all the long draw out approaches can be found here. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7410522-post2.html

Welcome aboard.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> First ask yourself how your GF will feel when your dog "kills or badly injures one of her cats??" Or who will get the blame when the cats get neurotic from being constantly stressed out by living in constant fear and start peeing outside there litter boxes??? Because that is where you are heading???
> 
> There is only one rule in Cat v Dog relationships *the dog never chases the cat *or in your case harasses! But you do get some credit, you've at least calmed him down. So at this point you could train Place and incorporate a "No Free Roaming in the house policy" for the dog. Inside he should be in "place" or in a "Crate" period. And if he moves from "Place" he should be "Corrected!" And "Corrections" for screwing with the cats .... is what you have not done. And that is why he is "still" screwing with the cats!
> 
> ...


So how long do you keep a dog in place or crated in the home? And what happens when a cat walks in front of a dog in place, and the dog breaks the place command?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> So how long do you keep a dog in place or crated in the home? And what happens when a cat walks in front of a dog in place, and the dog breaks the place command?


Well ... I had no choice but to address the issue directly myself. When it came up for me. But you know ... most people can't or won't do that. And if they don't, with a dog with a serious Cat issue ... they will, end up with a dead cat or a rehomed dog, pretty much that simple. 

But to answer your question directly ... Crate or Place period. If the owner is home ... give the dog a break every two hours and let the dog outside to play or to take break. "No free roaming indoors," means "No Free Roaming indoors" you can't control a dog indoors if you don't know where he is???
Indoors the dog should be in "Place" or a "Crate" and if he breaks "Place" ... he gets "Corrected" for breaking "Place" the cats don't matter! Or you know ... they could check out "Victoria Principle" for Cat v Dog advise. I did on a lark and her advise ... was to "Find a Trainer."


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

So the dog essentially has two places in the house. That's it. Nothing else? And what happens if the dog does break place, or a cat walks by close enough to be snapped? 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> So the dog essentially has two places in the house. That's it. Nothing else? And what happens if the dog does break place, or a cat walks by close enough to be snapped?
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


The dog gets "Corrected" for breaking "Place!" If you have a "Cat v Dog" situation then that dog needs to have a "Drag Leash" on it until the that issue is solved ... that "advise" is in my links. It is pretty much that simple. As I said ... the OP has already gotten further with a "correction free approach" than I was willing to try. Because I was not willing to force my cats to change how they live in there home. When I found myself with 75 lbs of solid muscled, fast and agile (Breed that shall not be mentioned) fresh off the street rescue ... I was not willing to screw around! So "Place" was not gonna work for me! But I think it could work for the OP???


Most likely ... they have just been lucky thus far?? But the dog has too much energy and the dog is way to interested in the cats. But as they say a picture is worth a thousands words ... which I can do. 










Any of my dogs could do that and they would not know they were doing anything ... just saying.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Why should the dog be forced to stay in a crate or in place? That's unfair to the dog and if you can't teach the dog that the cats are off limits then you need to pick which you like better. I know a lot of folks on here may not agree but in my experience (with dogs of unmentionable breed) you can't break the habit of chasing/biting/killing certain animals without a strong physical correction. I'm not saying a boot to the ribs but he has to know that cat/chicken/goat whatever is off limits.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Some cat sanctuary areas of your home (even if it is a rental) are in order. The cat deserves space to relax and not be stalked. 

If you cannot install/cut cat doors, buy baby gates that have cat doors in them. Your dog needs to respect those gates at all times - never, ever allowed to jump, or climb on, or dash through. 

You need to interrupt (and correct) the stalking behaviors that lead up to chasing. Eyeing, stalking, staring, following. None of those are acceptable when it comes to the cat.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> The dog gets "Corrected" for breaking "Place!" If you have a "Cat v Dog" situation then that dog needs to have a "Drag Leash" on it until the that issue is solved ... that "advise" is in my links. It is pretty much that simple. As I said ... the OP has already gotten further with a "correction free approach" than I was willing to try. Because I was not willing to force my cats to change how they live in there home. When I found myself with 75 lbs of solid muscled, fast and agile (Breed that shall not be mentioned) fresh off the street rescue ... I was not willing to screw around! So "Place" was not gonna work for me! But I think it could work for the OP???
> 
> 
> Most likely ... they have just been lucky thus far?? But the dog has too much energy and the dog is way to interested in the cats. But as they say a picture is worth a thousands words ... which I can do.
> ...


So. If the dog is in place, and a cat walks by, you have to catch the dog by the drag leash before the dog catch's the cat? 
But don't use the place command if the dog is too intense on the cat? 
So then you use what? Sit on the dog? Or bonker?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> So. If the dog is in place, and a cat walks by, you have to catch the dog by the drag leash before the dog catch's the cat?


 You'd only use a drag leash, once the dog has a solid bullet proof Place. And I would define "bullet proof" as a two hour in Place stay ... with distractions. You don't move dog ... until I say so ... why does not matter. Any corrections given ... would have been administered during the process of training Place. Hence my statement ... "the cats don't matter." 

That was always my plan but in the "real world" ... that was not gonna work out for "me." I found myself "suddenly" with a dog like this on my hands??? :





And unlike Chuck ... I don't "lay hands on a dog" and I don't do Cats in Boxes. I used a SSL as a DDC and I got the same results or better results in 24 hours of effort and the dog was always tethered to me during that period. But I seriously doubt the average "Cat" first and then I just got my first dog owner could do what I did??? So that's not gonna work for them. 

So plan B ... :





A less straightforward approach yes but even still a couple of caveats, I'd not use a "Prong Collar" for Cat v Dog without understanding its proper use ... a Prong can put drive into a dog or take drive out. I'd use a DDC and just lift the dog's front feet of the ground enough to get his attention. And yes like myself, that trainer also does not do the cat in a box thing but I don't know that I have any cats that would be that calm cool and collected around an unstable dog??? 

But the OP's dog sounds like it would be a good candidate at this point ... for an approach like the last link.  





cloudpump said:


> But don't use the place command if the dog is too intense on the cat?
> So then you use what? Sit on the dog? Or bonker?


 Sit on the dog??? Well I was gonna say not really applicable with Cat v Dog??? But the fact of the matter is ... yeah I did that also ... and it was a lot longer than 30 minutes by about ... several hours! 

Would have been named "Sally" got minor corrections for staring a bit to hard at the cats and three out of four cats ... did stay out in the living room with us. So yeah I suppose I do have cats just like that trainer. But Spooky was "outta there" in an instant and Stumpy did reappear in an hour or so and Spike ... yeah he just did not give a crap. Let Daddy deal with it. And when FW (FuzzyWuzzy) ... he comes and goes as he pleases so when he showed up, he just went "Oh a new dog ... pleased to meet you." 

But for the OP ... at this point they have options. At this point clearly the dog has not been given any effective corrections for screwing with the cats. If the would have been corrected for screwing with the cats ... they would not have started a thread???

If the OP does not want to "Correct" there dog for screwing with the cats??? Then train "Place" and incorporate a no free roaming in the house policy. The cats will show up once they understand this beast is under control. Or if they don't want to bother with Place or a No free Roaming Policy ... then use a "Bonker" and throw it at the dog for screwing with the cats! 

Or of course they could also just get an expensive E-Collar, and execute a "Behaviour Modification" Protocol. You'd only need two levels ... High and not so high. Keep the cats safe, let the Dog wear the E-Collar for a week. Turn it on high and then the next time the dog screws with the cat "light him up for 3 secs", lower the level and if he thinks about screwing with them again, a 1 sec tap should suffice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> Why should the dog be forced to stay in a crate or in place? That's unfair to the dog and if you can't teach the dog that the cats are off limits then you need to pick which you like better. I know a lot of folks on here may not agree but in my experience (with dogs of unmentionable breed) you can't break the habit of chasing/biting/killing certain animals without a strong physical correction. I'm not saying a boot to the ribs but he has to know that cat/chicken/goat whatever is off limits.


Ah well ... no a kick is not necessary. but you know ... been there done that worked out fine.


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## Kdickson (Apr 21, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> First ask yourself how your GF will feel when your dog "kills or badly injures one of her cats??" Or who will get the blame when the cats get neurotic from being constantly stressed out by living in constant fear and start peeing outside there litter boxes??? Because that is where you are heading???


Not very good I'd imagine. Ironically she's the one that started this approach and I've been rolling with it. The idea is that the unimpeded exposure would make the dog less interested. I'm skeptical to be honest on this approach but it has seemed to work somewhat into morphing the behavior from a initially aggressive approach to a much stranger obsessive approach. 

The good news is he was giving kisses to the braver one so that's much better than the initial wanting to kill them. Maybe he's just in love with them I don't know. 



Chip18 said:


> There is only one rule in Cat v Dog relationships *the dog never chases the cat *or in your case harasses! But you do get some credit, you've at least calmed him down. So at this point you could train Place and incorporate a "No Free Roaming in the house policy" for the dog. Inside he should be in "place" or in a "Crate" period. And if he moves from "Place" he should be "Corrected!" And "Corrections" for screwing with the cats .... is what you have not done. And that is why he is "still" screwing with the cats!


Considering we alternate locking the cats in a room and locking him in a room while we're at work all day that's not going to be an approach I'm willing to take. I'm also skeptical as to how locking him away would help this situation? I agree the dog needs to be corrected. Which I do when he does this behavior. The issue is that he doesn't let it rest. I'll call him over to me and he'll listen but meanwhile his attention is firmly on wherever the kitty was last seen. I can "reset" him by taking him away, it's not that he doesn't listen to me. He does, he just seems very obsessed with the cats anytime he's exposed to them. Whether I correct him or not doesn't make a difference. I'll tell him to stop, he'll stop, it's the starting again that's an issue. You may say being consistent and insistent is the key, but I've tried that for 6 years with him chasing reflections with no luck. Which is what this behavior reminds me of. [/quote]



Chip18 said:


> I don't expect my cats to change there lifestyle becasue I get a dog ... it's the dog's "job" to fit in.
> I have a "Zero Policy" with dogs screwing with my cats in my house! As my fresh off the street (Breed that shall not be mentioned) found out in 24 hours! When I got her she "apparently" would kill a cat?? I had only four (Cats) at that time, but 24 hours later ... she bowed down to the cats. But I doubt most "owners" could do that???
> 
> But at this point with this dog train "place" and no "free roaming" indoors and I think ... you should be OK. When you lower the dog's energy ... the cats will be willing to come out, right now the cats understand, that you don't have any control over this beast.
> ...


I appreciate your input and the link had some useful info but I just don't think keeping my dog in a down stay for hours on end is really fair. You talk about being fair to the cats but they get their attention, time in the spot light and more importantly (to them) their wet cat food as we've been feeding them lots throughout this transition. What I'm trying to find out is how to break this obsessive behavior. I've heard of training a very strong leave it, but I'm wondering if that's going to help distill this obsession or just train him not to follow.

I appreciate the welcome.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I didn't say it's not necessary either chip. Or that the dog can't take it. I'd sure like to think that a dog such as the gsd would be able to take a kick and not die. I won't suggest how anyone should correct their dog because different dogs need different approaches. Some dogs might meet that boot and never want to be near you again and hide in fear. Another dog may get the boot and decide he'd rather fight back. And another may have to have that kinda correction because nothing else will work. And I've met all 3


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I hope cats have 9 lives with those techniques, because those dogs are in no way cured after 15 minutes. No trainer no matter how much they boast can get rid of prey drive that quickly. And anyone that thinks a dog is cured that quickly is full of it. 
A dog needs to be corrected and maintenance needs to be done. Teaching a solid leave it, implementing cat safe zones, and a good balanced obedience and exercise routine for the dog is the only way.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I hope cats have 9 lives with those techniques, because those dogs are in no way cured after 15 minutes. No trainer no matter how much they boast can get rid of prey drive that quickly. And anyone that thinks a dog is cured that quickly is full of it.
> A dog needs to be corrected and maintenance needs to be done. Teaching a solid leave it, implementing cat safe zones, and a good balanced obedience and exercise routine for the dog is the only way.


Pretty sure I said hours, not 15 minutes?? Sure ... have four cats, a free roaming, Dog Aggressive and let me know how that works out???

Chuck just happened to have a dog that showed "exactly" what I saw??? I was stunned, my dog friendly, people friendly fresh off the street rescue ... had a "Dark Side" who knew??? Chuck did it his way ... I did it mine. And my cat ... aptly named "Spooky" provided "Proof of Concept." When she first saw that dog, she was ... "outa here!" She lived in the background bedroom for years becasue she did not like one cat. Imagine my surprise when "Spooky" showed up 24 hours later and "Sally" Bowed down before her. I did not mandate she do that ... it was Sally's choice. 
I train my dogs to make "Good Choices" apparently, that holds true, even if I just stumble across a dog.  

Oh and for the record ... "Formal Obedience" while helpful will not fix "Behavioural Issues." I tried that way back in the day with Rocky and it was a fail. Larry Krohn ... explained to my satisfaction why that was a fail ... just saying.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> I didn't say it's not necessary either chip. Or that the dog can't take it. I'd sure like to think that a dog such as the gsd would be able to take a kick and not die. I won't suggest how anyone should correct their dog because different dogs need different approaches. Some dogs might meet that boot and never want to be near you again and hide in fear. Another dog may get the boot and decide he'd rather fight back. And another may have to have that kinda correction because nothing else will work. And I've met all 3


I don't advocate laying hands or ... feet on a dog??? I term that kinda stuff "Fighting with a dog" while back in the day ... I never kicked or hit "Rocky" we were "fighting." That approach, ultimately wound up with me getting stitches (breaking up pack fights.) When the H/A thing appeared ... I chose to "outthink him" that approach worked much better.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip, I gotta say buddy you're confusing as all he**. Ya know in one breath you're saying you've been there and done that about kicking a dog and it turning out fine and the next you don't wanna "fight" your dogs. Here's the long and short of it with this whole big dog going after a small animal thing. It's in their nature. That's what they want to do. Big animals with sharp teeth eat small animals. You aren't going to outthink that by putting him in a crate or in place. They need a physical correction. Doesn't matter if it's with an e collar, prong collar, newspaper, or boot. Only op is going to know what his dog is going to respond best too. Do I suggest that op goes and kicks the dog? No I don't. But in a hypothetical scenario I'd rather kick my dog once than to ban him to a place or crate for the rest of his indoor life. Which sounds crueler to you?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> Chip, I gotta say buddy you're confusing as all he**. *Ya know in one breath you're saying you've been there and done that about kicking a dog *?


Well I do say a lot of stuff but I have to say to that ... show me???


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> thegooseman90 said:
> 
> 
> > Why should the dog be forced to stay in a crate or in place? That's unfair to the dog and if you can't teach the dog that the cats are off limits then you need to pick which you like better. I know a lot of folks on here may not agree but in my experience (with dogs of unmentionable breed) you can't break the habit of chasing/biting/killing certain animals without a strong physical correction. I'm not saying a boot to the ribs but he has to know that cat/chicken/goat whatever is off limits.
> ...


Ok. Here ya go


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> Ok. Here ya go


Uh Oh ... my bad!!

I got carried away ... I meant ...* I've dealt with a dog ... just like that,* without laying hands or feet on. A rare overstatement for me ... I stand corrected and I have no choice but to award you a Houndie. :










Well played sir, I salute you.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Haha we may get along after all chip. But with 15 years dealing with dogs around live stock and other pets you don't want ate I have yet to see one "treated" into leaving an animal alone. And at the end of the day tho we may disagree there's not much difference between a hand and a collar.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> Haha we may get along after all chip. But with 15 years dealing with dogs around livestock and other pets you don't want ate I have yet to see one "treated" into leaving an animal alone. And at the end of the day tho we may disagree there's not much difference between a hand and a collar.


The treats and distraction ... is not an approach I recommend or use but if you do a search by and large, cat in the box, baby gates, distractions, escape routes and treats, is what you find. 

The hands on approach, most likely ... yes it can be done by some, I don't doubt that but most first time dog owners that were formerly cat people ... simply can't do that. Nor for the most part could they use a "SLL as a DDC." So options for corrections start to get reduced??? But anyone if they are willing could use a "Bonker." Or under the right circumstances with the right dog and the time, ... training "Place" and use a "PC" which pretty much takes the interpretations of "Corrections" off the table and one would correct the dog for breaking Place. But you can't chase a dog down to try and "PC" him if you've messed up and the dog is in hot pursuit of a cat. Or of course an expensive E-Collar for Cat and Dog issues is also a relatively simple solution.

But livestock you say ... that's interesting???


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

The only real disagreement I had with you was using place or a crate to restrict the dogs movement in favor of the cats. Whatever corrections the op chooses is on him and has to be based on his and his dogs needs.

But yea originally I grew up with hunting dogs and we also raised cattle, horses, and lots of chickens. Because of the distance between me and the dog the e collar was about the easiest but other ways worked just fine too. OPs situation is a little different because most of the time it was dogs we had from pups and we can all agree it is way easier to break that type of habit in a pup. But if I used stronger corrections than what may be politically correct it's because two things. My safety or the dogs safety relied on it and they absolutely had to do what was asked. They could get trampled by the livestock or a bunch of other stuff could go wrong and lead to one of us being hurt.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> The only real disagreement I had with you was using place or a crate to restrict the dogs movement in favor of the cats. Whatever corrections the op chooses is on him and has to be based on his and his dogs needs.


LOL well I suppose that's a fundamental disagreement in approach ... "No Free Roaming??" Lesson learned from "Rocky" and high "Rank Drive" issues.* You can't control a dog if you don't where they are??* Dominate Dog one vs apparently Dominate Dog two ... who knew??? Outside is for play inside is to chill ... pretty much that simple ,if people want to interpret that as "mean." Then they are free to do so. No Free Roaming works for Dogs and it works with Cat's. You can't control a dog if you don't know where he is??? I tried that ... it did not work out for me but as they say "your results may vary." 

But I did take note of the fact that most of the Youtube clips showed "Golden, labs or some other semi placid breed or dog" that did not give a pretty clear indication of intent to do harm. If the OP is content with where there dog is ... that's fine by me. My advise is by and large for those that are not willing to settle for "Good Enough."  






thegooseman90 said:


> But yea originally I grew up with hunting dogs and we also raised cattle, horses, and lots of chickens. Because of the distance between me and the dog the e collar was about the easiest but other ways worked just fine too. OPs situation is a little different because most of the time it was dogs we had from pups and we can all agree it is way easier to break that type of habit in a pup. But if I used stronger corrections than what may be politically correct it's because two things. My safety or the dogs safety relied on it and they absolutely had to do what was asked. They could get trampled by the livestock or a bunch of other stuff could go wrong and lead to one of us being hurt.


Well sure pups are easier and people can mess that up to by allowing the puppy to chase the cats ...just saying. And Rocky was 7 months old and 57 pounds when I got him and with the Cat's ... no issues. Apparently he was smart enough to realize that screwing with the cats was a no go??? So he let that go and bided his time. And then at 14 months are so at a full on 116 lbs ... it was Game On ... Bandog vs OS GSD and Rocky always started it! 

In anycase if you taught your dogs that they ought to not be acting like "tools" around creatures that could kill them with an E-Collar ... I have no issue with that approach?? I consider that "Keeping it Real" for the dog! You'll get no grief from me. I just tend to favor a low to no dollars approach in dealing with dogs with creature issues ... and "no" not everyone can do that but some can. I can state that as fact as I have heard from them.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

The e collar was more a matter of necessity due to the range. Hard to give a dog a treat from an acre away. The type of dogs I had were the type who worked for you praise and affection so a light tap and a strong "no" in whatever form it took was more effective with them because they could see I wasn't happy with what they were doing. Every dog is different tho. There are dogs who are better off as a kennel dog. They come out to work and go back in their kennel. 

But getting back to your last point your DA and rank drive issues with rocky are completely different from OPs issue of prey drive with the cats. Also for OPs situation an e collar isn't needed. He's made progress to where the dog isn't chasing or biting the cats and now he justs wants them left completely alone. And in that situation probably a leave it type command every time the dog looks or follows a cat over and over until it understands the cats are off limits will probably work with enough consistency.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Pretty sure I said hours, not 15 minutes?? Sure ... have four cats, a free roaming, Dog Aggressive and let me know how that works out???
> 
> Chuck just happened to have a dog that showed "exactly" what I saw??? I was stunned, my dog friendly, people friendly fresh off the street rescue ... had a "Dark Side" who knew??? Chuck did it his way ... I did it mine. And my cat ... aptly named "Spooky" provided "Proof of Concept." When she first saw that dog, she was ... "outa here!" She lived in the background bedroom for years becasue she did not like one cat. Imagine my surprise when "Spooky" showed up 24 hours later and "Sally" Bowed down before her. I did not mandate she do that ... it was Sally's choice.
> I train my dogs to make "Good Choices" apparently, that holds true, even if I just stumble across a dog.
> ...


My bad. 24 hours and cured :wink2: 
I say that you cannot cure genetics. So with that.....
Prove it as you are want to say. Prove that solid obedience doesn't work. Because I've seen high drive dutchies not lighting up a decoy because of solid obedience.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

@Chip18 I'm surprised you didn't advocate more for using a crate like you did here where you talked about "that owner that didn't have a freaking clue" Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - I did a bad thing
Just curious?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

thegooseman90 said:


> The e collar was more a matter of necessity due to the range. Hard to give a dog a treat from an acre away. The type of dogs I had were the type who worked for you praise and affection so a light tap and a strong "no" in whatever form it took was more effective with them because they could see I wasn't happy with what they were doing. Every dog is different tho. There are dogs who are better off as a kennel dog. They come out to work and go back in their kennel.


I'm not a treat kinda guy. I just showed ... what others do ... that's not what I do. Behaviour modification ... is not training, it's a hard freaking NO! And yes an E-Collar gives you standoff distance to correct for a dog making "Poor Choices." It's just mentioned here becasue it is also a viable option but it's not my call. 




thegooseman90 said:


> But getting back to your last point your DA and rank drive issues with rocky are completely different from OPs issue of prey drive with the cats. Also for OPs situation an e collar isn't needed. He's made progress to where the dog isn't chasing or biting the cats and now he justs wants them left completely alone. And in that situation probably a leave it type command every time the dog looks or follows a cat over and over until it understands the cats are off limits will probably work with enough consistency.


That's where we disagree ... for me an out control dog is an out of control ... "why" does not matter. Pack Issues or Cat issues in both cases ...* you can't control a dog if you don't know where he is???* So yes different creatures, different situations but same solutions, you have to know where your dog is or you can't correct him?? 

And the Op said this has been going on for Six years??? That's a bit hard to understand?? But in anycase "Leave it" doesn't mean crap without "consequences" and for me ... "leave it" is not sufficient for my cats." One would not use "leave it for a baby???" And I would not use "Leave It" for my Cat's ... others are of course free to do as they see fit. 

So if in fact 6 years of this crap is accurate??? Then compare that to my 24 hour change in attitude dog. "This crap will not stand " is what I did with a dog very similar to the one in the first clip. I kinda sorta just skipped the long introduction work.

But back on point, what the OP has done which does seem to have worked to a large degree??? Has gotten him pretty much as far as it can. It's just about the limits of a "PO" approach. Leave it ... would only work if there dog "believes them" and right now ... the dog does not?? If it did ... he would not have started this thread???

So I suppose they could continue to try and "train" there way out of there dog being annoying with the cats?? Train Place, no free roaming or heck train leave it ...blab, blab. Most likely ... any of those options will work ... "eventually." But it's been six years??? 

It's just a lot simpler to train a dog to "Make Better Choices." And the quickest most efficient way to do that is by delivering an "aversive" ... make better choices dog or there will be consequences! So for this dog and this owner ... I'd use a "Bonker" if the dog goes after the cats and call it a day.

Stopping unwanted behavior with Bonkers! - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> @Chip18 I'm surprised you didn't advocate more for using a crate like you did here where you talked about "that owner that didn't have a freaking clue" Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - I did a bad thing
> Just curious?


Different breed, different owner, different situation. She knows she messed up, I merely acknowledged that you don't have to "Crate" train your puppy. I never did with any of mine and not using a "Crate" worked out fine for me ... until it didn't. 

I de-crate trained Rocky and came it back to bite me in the butt??? Who knows if I'd have gotten him at seven weeks ... instead of 7 months ... I might not be here??? 

But no one ask me "what would I do???" If/when I get another Boxer ... if it's a puppy and it will be a girl. I have no idea if I will crate train her??? I'm not necessarily that great at following my own advise. Use a flashlight at night comes to mind ... and "Rocky" got nipped at night on that one. Apparently ... I can't see in the dark ... who knew??? And carry a walking stick yep, I say that and ignored it also and again ... that same night Rocky got nipped. So I tend to give advise ... that does not mean I necessarily follow it?? 

So yes I've raised many assorted Boxers, Bandogs and Boxer/(Breed that shall not be mentioned) puppies Crate Free and had no issues with those dogs ... but with "Rocky" ... Crate Free ... did not work out so well. :surprise:

So yes I told her if she does not want to "Crate Train" her puppy she does not need to but she does have to get everything else right. Apparently that was enough and she went back to the Crate Training ... much to my surprise??? 

But hey I'm a sexist pig as it were and my girls are special. So I feel with the girls ... I can skip the Crate and make it up on the back side. The OP in that thread was not so sure, she could?? So back to the Crate she went.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> @Chip18 I'm surprised you didn't advocate more for using a crate like you did here where you talked about "that owner that didn't have a freaking clue" Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - I did a bad thing
> Just curious?


A little shocking to see the nasty digs at all of us. SMH.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> My bad. 24 hours and cured :wink2:
> I say that you cannot cure genetics. So with that.....
> Prove it as you are want to say. Prove that solid obedience doesn't work. Because I've seen high drive dutchies not lighting up a decoy because of solid obedience.


Not really sure why "genetics" is relevant here and as you know ... I don't recommend GSD's to anyone. So you can take that "debate" up with others cause I'm out. 

As for high drive "Dutchies" not lighting up on decoys because of solid obedience?? I would not know becasue that is not world?? I do family pets and in family pet world, we want our dogs "Calm." And as for ... "Formal Obedience Training" not fixing "Behavioural Issues" ... been there done that and got the stitches. 

Rocky at 14 months did what anyone would expect a well behaved dog to do. Sit ,Stay,Down don't bolt thru thresholds don't exit the car without permission and "On the Lawn" don't act like a "tool" in public, etc, etc. It didn't mean crap, his issues were "Behavioural" and "Formal Obedience" training did not fix them?? Prior to "Rocky" I never had any behavioural problems to fix??? But whatever ... Larry Krhon explained to me what I experienced, others are free to draw there own conclusions ... I'm good.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Not really sure why "genetics" is relevant here and as you know ... I don't recommend GSD's to anyone. So you can take that "debate" up with others cause I'm out.
> 
> As for high drive "Dutchies" not lighting up on decoys because of solid obedience?? I would not know becasue that is not world?? I do family pets and in family pet world, we want our dogs "Calm." And as for ... "Formal Obedience Training" not fixing "Behavioural Issues" ... been there done that and got the stitches.
> 
> ...


It's the same idea. You can use obedience, if you are proactive. Just because somebody posts videos doesn't mean they are an expert...Just someone who posts on the internet. 
Again, I dont get why you don't like gsds...But anywho...
Your limitations as a dog owner are not the same for another person. I don't get the whole one way to do anything, and if there is a disagreement with you, you just can't hear it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> It's the same idea. You can use obedience, if you are proactive. Just because somebody posts videos doesn't mean they are an expert...Just someone who posts on the internet.
> Again, I dont get why you don't like gsds...But anywho...
> Your limitations as a dog owner are not the same for another person. I don't get the whole one way to do anything, and if there is a disagreement with you, you just can't hear it.


Someone who would not recommend GSDs to anyone should not be a member here. Their posts have no validity and they have zero crediblity. I am very disappointed it continues to be a theme here from someone who has indicated they hate them. Even worse, some of the terrible and abusive advice offered can be harmful. GSDS are remarkable dogs, possibly the best breed out there, and deserve respect, at the very least, on a forum dedicated to them.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Someone who would not recommend GSDs to anyone should not be a member here. Their posts have no validity and they have zero crediblity. I am very disappointed it continues to be a theme here from some one who has indicated they hate them. GSDS are remarkable dogs, possibly the best breed out there, and deserve respect, at the very least, on a forum dedicated to them.


It is disheartening to come on and hear how awful they are.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well you know the factor of the matter is I have never stated what some are saying I've said about "GSD's??" I merely stated that based on my experiance ... I don't recommend them. Google is your friend, in ost likely more that a million words if I've stated other than "I don't recommend a GSD to anyone I know ... you can find it."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> It's the same idea. You can use obedience, if you are proactive. Just because somebody posts videos doesn't mean they are an expert...Just someone who posts on the internet.
> Again, I dont get why you don't like gsds...But anywho...
> Your limitations as a dog owner are not the same for another person. I don't get the whole one way to do anything, and if there is a disagreement with you, you just can't hear it.


Oh so now I'm suppose to convince you that I like GSD's??? Well as I want to say ... "Good luck with that." 

And I really did not post Larry's advise for you ... but for members that are having "behavioural issues" and struggling ... it will make a lot of sense.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Oh so now I'm suppose to convince you that I like GSD's??? Well as I want to say ... "Good luck with that."
> 
> And I really did not post Larry's advise for you ... but for members that are having "behavioural issues" and struggling ... it will make a lot of sense.


If obedience does not fix behavioral issues why then do you recommend teaching place in nearly every post I see you in?


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Hello All! As far as recommending a GSD to prospective owners, I have had shepherds in the past. I found this forum years after. It has been remarkable that when I had shepherds in the past, they were simply an energetic new member of our family, much more energetic and bright than my pugs or my husband's bassett hound (sorry, sweeties!). But when I first became a member on this forum, it seemed like there are people here who equate getting a shepherd with getting a monster from **** that needs only the most expert of owners. Yes, my shepherds have had training or behavioral issues that needed addressed, but no more so than any of my other dogs.- my French Bulldogs in particular. Just my two cents as a mere mortal pet owner  My shepherd girl and my Chinese Crested Dog are the best dogs ever - very different from one another, but great! My poopy old Frenchie remains a jerk. But I love him.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kazel said:


> If obedience does not fix behavioral issues why then do you recommend teaching place in nearly every post I see you in?


Place is part of a process for rehab, all the trainers that I follow that deal with dogs with "issues" ... train, Place. I just happen to stumble unto "Place" long before I got here. And I did it with "Rocky" and it solved my people in the home issues. He stays in Place and I keep company out of his face.
I understand "now" that you can walk the dog around the room and have everyone just ignore the dog, to help a dog with people issues. But that was more trouble than it was worth to "me." 

But what I did not know at the time, was that, Place helps train "Calmness into a dog." It helps them to cope with doing nothing. It also overlaps proper management. And the rest of what worked ... was just something I over looked because, I can train a dog to walk on a loose leash usually in minutes. So the walk was a no brainer for me with Rocky and I had the whole desert for "Exercise" so why bother "walking him???" 

Not walking him ... would prove to have been a mistake ... seven months later. He already had "formal obedience training" so I had no issues with him that I could see forth coming??? But when the crap hit the fan ... I solved it by, "Showing him how I expected him to behave" by walking him ... back to basics as it were. And that would be proper structured, walks. Walks with purpose as it were, not him ramdomly screwing around. Worked out fine.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Place is part of a process for rehab, all the trainers that I follow that deal with dogs with "issues" ... train, Place. I just happen to stumble unto "Place" long before I got here. And I did it with "Rocky" and it solved my people in the home issues. He stays in Place and I keep company out of his face.
> I understand "now" that you can walk the dog around the room and have everyone just ignore the dog, to help a dog with people issues. But that was more trouble than it was worth to "me."
> 
> But what I did not know at the time, was that, Place helps train "Calmness into a dog." It helps them to cope with doing nothing. It also overlaps proper management. And the rest of what worked ... was just something I over looked because, I can train a dog to walk on a loose leash usually in minutes. So the walk was a no brainer for me with Rocky and I had the whole desert for "Exercise" so why bother "walking him???"
> ...


Yes but the point is your trainer clearly brings up that place is a basic obedience practice and obedience does not 'rehab a dog'. Obviously obedience has it's place, just don't post videos that contradict what you are saying.

I myself use 'place' but I used it before I was ever on this site. It is a small tool in my bag of tools. Obedience has a very very very strong place in behaviour issues and to say it doesn't is just ignorant. Saying he first trains the basics and then moves to the 'rehab' means he is laying a foundation and using that foundation of obedience to then then correct the behaviors. He is moving the obedience to say, yes there is another dog but you are still going to listen and obey, ignore that dog you will not react and we will carry on. By strengthening my dog's obedience she learned that even when there are chickens running all around her she cannot go chase them, even in 'drive' she must listen. 

To OP, desensitization can be helpful in certain dogs. When the dog is focusing on the cats can you shift the focus to you or a toy? It's encouraging if he is licking them and not chasing, baby steps will eventually get you to where you want. I have a problem with my dog Shelby hyper focusing on my other dog. It's constant disengaging and getting her to focus on me while the other dog is around.


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## Kdickson (Apr 21, 2017)

So quick update. My dog is now more or less accustomed to the braver of the two cats. At least 5 times today the cat ran/walked past him and he didn't react. The other cat is still terrified of him however and he likes to lay by the bed and stare at him while he's hiding under it. I think now that I'm a lot less worried about him harming the cats I'm more at ease to just take a hands off approach and correct him when he's being overly enthusiastic. I think at this point I've lucked out and that it's more of a lack of exposure issue. The cats are new and mysterious so he's more curious than anything I'd wager.

I think the initial aggression was the dog being in "hunt mode" because he didn't attribute the new house to being home yet. As he settled down and saw us interact with the cats from behind a gate combined with verbal corrections when he acted aggressively I think he slowly started to get the hint.
@Chip This behavior hasn't been going on for 6 years, only 3 weeks. My main concern was when he started acting obsessive and it reminded me of his obsession with chasing reflections which he developed at 1yrs of age after my Mother and Father repeteadly used laser pointers around him. So I thought I may of had a bigger issue on my hands.

Thankfully he's making strides and I seem more worried about it than my girlfriend who's quickly falling in love with my giant goofball. He will stop looking at the cats to follow us out of the room without us having to call him so you can tell he's getting less and less interested.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kdickson said:


> @Chip This behavior hasn't been going on for 6 years, only 3 weeks. My main concern was when he started acting obsessive and it reminded me of his obsession with chasing reflections which he developed at 1yrs of age after my Mother and Father repeatedly used laser pointers around him. So I thought I may of had a bigger issue on my hands.
> 
> Thankfully he's making strides and I seem more worried about it than my girlfriend who's quickly falling in love with my giant goofball. He will stop looking at the cats to follow us out of the room without us having to call him so you can tell he's getting less and less interested.


LOL well three weeks makes a lot more sense ... my bad. 

I'd still not allow the staring myself but if your satisfied with where he is ... Good Enough.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

*Back on Point....*

After a lifetime of successfully raising dogs and cats together, 10 years ago I encountered the exception that proved the rule: Malcolm (Maine **** mix adopted as an adult from a cat rescue) and Gunner (an outsized terrier mix adopted, as a puppy, from a local rescue). To say that they didn't get along would be a _massive _understatement. For the first time, I was seriously concerned that a dog of mine might actually kill the cat. 

The only choices that I saw were to either rehome one (which would have broken my heart) or make significant changes in household management. I chose the latter. During the day, Malcolm was restricted to the second floor of the house. Dogs had free run of the first floor and basement (where my office and the family room are located). At night, Malcolm was restricted to a small bedroom (with food, water, and toilet facilities) because the dogs often slept in mine. (What can I say, one of them was here first). Sturdy gates mounted on stairs and across the door to Malcolm's room kept my BP down and everyone safe. If you have the space for a similar arrangement, I'd highly recommend it. 

A final thought. I'm glad you're able to see some improvement in such a short time. That said, I'd still be concerned by any dog that stares at or obsessively licks a cat. Too often, the behavior is not what we think it is. My rule is that if any dog looks iffy to me around cats, they're not allowed to look at or approach the cat. Period. The licking especially concerns me because, for some dogs (don't know yours and haven't seen the interaction) it can quickly morph into highly problematic, not to say injurious behavior ---- for the cat. 

Good luck.

Aly


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I would still interrupt/remove a dog that had cornered the cat ("lying by the bed" counts). That should never be a choice the dog has. The dog needs to be with you and not out of sight when the cats are out and about. That level of interest is unacceptable in my book. I still routinely babygate my house into two halves, even though I trust my dog to not be overcome and suddenly snap. However, my cat deserves some lounging alone time without the dog sniffing her or becoming excited when the she gets the crazies (he wants to participate ... it is not appreciated). 

I was definitely a helicopter owner when he was a puppy, but it has paid off in a dog with good impulse control inside and a cat that is safe. She's just as important to me as my dog so it WAS going to work. Be consistent and never allow inappropriate behaviors to go unchecked.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Kdickson said:


> So quick update. My dog is now more or less accustomed to the braver of the two cats. At least 5 times today the cat ran/walked past him and he didn't react. The other cat is still terrified of him however and he likes to lay by the bed and stare at him while he's hiding under it. I think now that I'm a lot less worried about him harming the cats I'm more at ease to just take a hands off approach and correct him when he's being overly enthusiastic. I think at this point I've lucked out and that it's more of a lack of exposure issue. The cats are new and mysterious so he's more curious than anything I'd wager.
> 
> I think the initial aggression was the dog being in "hunt mode" because he didn't attribute the new house to being home yet. As he settled down and saw us interact with the cats from behind a gate combined with verbal corrections when he acted aggressively I think he slowly started to get the hint.
> 
> ...


Here's a video for you with actual good advice. Utilizing a crate for the safety of both animals and lessening the chances of an incident. No snake oil here :wink2:

Leerburg On Demand | Introducing Dogs to Cats


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Here's a video for you with actual good advice. Utilizing a crate for the safety of both animals and lessening the chances of an incident. No snake oil here :wink2:
> 
> Leerburg On Demand | Introducing Dogs to Cats


Yes ... and your about ...* two years to late, *it's in the *thread* I posted "Here" you just did not dig deep enough but here you go ... along with Joe Galaxy, you can't get more PO them him and have a hope of success. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html
. 

And I'll add the only thing three dog trainers will agree on,* "is what one of them is doing wrong." *I ... would not allow that kinda crap with my cats!. My dogs stay calm and my cats approach them, they cuddle, groom and walk all over my dogs. And my dogs luv, them and if my outdoor cats are outside and my dogs go out my cats, "run up to my dog's and my dogs will dip there heads to greet them. 

My dogs don't chase cats and in fact don't even perceive them in there environment, Struddell, Gunther and Rocky "Proof-ed" that one by having strays show up and eating routinely out of my cats bowls. Standing right over Rocky's head on a table on one occasion as a matter of fact. I assumed it was Fuzzy Wuzzy but it was not it was a stray that looked like him but bigger?? None of my dogs even noticed that cat?? Strays come in and out of my yard quite often ... my dogs pay them no heed. That ... is what I expect and what I get from my dogs. And I only noticed my cat proofed dogs with Rocky in particular ... on walks, (because I watched him like a hawk for awhile.) So I have seen cat's that he never seemed to notice and one of them was eight feet away and freaked out ... but I told the cat ... "you got nothing to worry about here cat." And those dogs were my puppies so you know "Zero" ... "aversives" required. Just saying.

I'll give Frawley credit ... the dog did not chase the cat per se, but my standards are apparently higher than his, As my policy is ... "not one paw forward, towards the cat period end of story!" So I can't post any cute cat and dogs wrestling together clips. All my cats do is sleep, cuddle and groom my dogs. I'd not like to see how Frawley's cat in the box, cat/dog wrestling allowance, would have worked out in the long run with, would have been named "Sally???" Cause you know ... I'd say to him .... "Good Look with that!" > 

But you know he does not do (Breeds that shall not be mentioned ... rescued fresh of the street) cause if he did ... he'd realize that clip is insane?? So maybe that much "liberty" works out fine with the "right dog??"


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Yes ... and your about ...* two years to late, *it's in the *thread* I posted "Here" you just did not dig deep enough but here you go ... along with Joe Galaxy, you can't get more PO them him and have a hope of success.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html
> .
> 
> ...


Ok Chip. I didn't notice you say it takes weeks, maybe months. Using a crate​ (not place), keeping the animals separated by rooms, or some of the other things he said. 
I don't care what your dogs do and don't do. There are a lot of different dogs out there that won't react the same way. In fact in a few of your posts, people have stated they tried your suggestion and it failed. 
And I know why you use the pink. Nice try. But couldn't hold a candle to either one of them.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It can take months years or longer. It is all dependent on the cat. If the cat is a runner there is no better high then the chase also depends on the desire to chase in the dog. I notice when the cat feels safe or just had enough they will come around more and stop running its when improvements start. We had a King Charles first dog ever whom I had that disliked cats. The cats except for one would who would not take any crap and always not afraid -was non issue the ones that were runners were issue. It was when bella got sick did they start coming around and stop running, turkeys invaded the yard. It is amazing what animals can sense. We had a pair angel fish in a tank with a huge Pleco that was over 20 years old. Two weeks we noticed the angel fish had laid eggs. We wondered why all of a sudden. Last week the Pleco died. I do think the Angel fish knew the Pleco was sick and felt safe enough is why they laid eggs. It is amazing what animals can sense. Sorry I know I veered a bit off of topic.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Bella a King Charles cavalier a low energy dog who did have a medium to high prey drive limited to cats and squirrels.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

As someone who has had several dogs living successfully with smaller pets and farm animals, i just wanna say that the dog obssesively staring and getting in the cats personal space is an accident waiting to happen. I would not feel comfortable at all until the dog appears pretty much bored with the cats. Or any other animal. Same ole same ole nothing too interesting here. Is what i want to see in the dog.


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