# Inbred dog. AKC question?????



## LaRen616

My *Dog*: Sinister Black Lawler 

*Sire:* Kalmes Acres Grizzly Bear 

*Sire's mother*: Sasha Von Stolz IV
*Sire's mother's mom*: Anna Vom Haus Haenitsch
*Sire's mother's dad: Grizzly Von Der Gutten Haus*

*Sire's father*: *Grizzly Von Der Gutten Haus*
*Sire's father's mom: *Aida Von Der Mausespitz
*Sire's father's father:* Eric Von Stolz

MY DOG IS INBRED!!!!! Yet he is AKC Registered!! How is that???? I just discovered this!!!!


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## Chris Wild

This is what would be called a 2-3 linebreeding. While linebreeding is essentially a form of inbreeding, the term "inbred" would typically be used for a much closer match, like father/daughter, mother/son, siblings, etc...

Linebreeding is used by breeders to enhance a particular dog's genetic influence on a litter, and to bring consistency and help set type. It is in and of itself neither a good thing or a bad thing. It's all about how it is used, the traits (both good and bad) that the dog being linebred on contributes, and the overall knowledge that the breeder has of those lines.

While that's a pretty close linebreeding, nothing in the AKC rules (or any rules anywhere, including Germany) prohibit it.


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## LaRen616

It is disturbing! I now know why they no longer have his father!


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## arycrest

LaRen616 said:


> It is disturbing! I now know why they no longer have his father!


Okay, I'm confused and I've got to ask - why don't they have his father any longer?


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## LaRen616

Violation board rules


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

This is a common practice. there was probably some trait that they were trying to get from *Grizzly Von Der Gutten Haus *that they liked. It is also a common practice in most livestock. Anyone who grew up with livestock breeding going on around them would probably be used to this. Inbreeding is a term used to describe even more intensive line breeding than just a few of the same parents. IE siblings bred together then that offspring bred back to parent etc. etc. using only one line breeding is hardly an inbred dog. It is considered ok but always something you dont want to do too much of because of the risk of genetic deformities from heavy inbreeding. cats do it all the time in the wild.


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## Emoore

LaRen616 said:


> MY DOG IS INBRED!!!!! Yet he is AKC Registered!! How is that???? I just discovered this!!!!


AKC registration only means that both parents are registered with the AKC. The AKC will register a litter even if the parents are brother and sister, or father and daughter, or have horrible deformities. So long as both parents are registered, they'll register the offspring. AKC is no guarantee of quality.

That said, the linebreeding in your dog's pedigree is not necessarily a bad thing.


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## Doc

The sire of the sire is the grand sire of the dam - text book line breeding. Theoretically, your male should be very much like his sire.

I would find out all the information about *Grizzly Von Der Gutten Haus that you can. 
*


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## LaRen616

Sinister looks exactly like him!


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## katieliz

you're thinking in human terms about the breeding of dogs. there's nothing disturbing about linebreeding or inbreeding. as chris said, it's done by experienced breeders to solidify type. foolish for the inexperienced tho. and do find out all you can about grizzly, because your dog has a genetic load from him.


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## katieliz

well, there ya go. now you understand why breeders do it. in american showlines both a relatively recent grand victor and grand victrix were inbreds. and they were very beautiful dogs.


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## selzer

Wait, I am confused, this looks like the sire IS inbred, not line bred. Line bred, 2-3 would be like the sire of the sire is the grandsire of the dam. 

But this is all the sire. unless I am reading this wrong they bred the bitch to her father to acquire this sire. 

Tell me I am wrong about that, please. 

I know it happens. People wanting to produce a champion out of a champion will get another champion quickest by breeding to a sibling or parent, but inbreeding should ONLY be done by someone who knows what they are doing, and many of us do not believe in breeding that closely. 

As for the AKC, if the dog has papers and the bitch has papers, and the breeder has not been suspended for a serious infraction, the puppies can also be registered AKC. 

The AKC and the SV are VERY DIFFERENT entities. The AKC is an all breed registry and deals with the standards for over a hundred breeds, toys, terriers, bird dogs, hounds, mastiffs, etc. The SV is a German Shepherd registry and dedicated one breed. They have an easier time deterimining what requirements they want to demand for registratable dogs. 

For example, the SV can require an endurance test -- ten or twelve mile run while a handler rides a bike with no sign of tiring. If the AKC tried to impose that, you would probably never have another newfoundland, mastiff, or Cavelier King Charles Spaniel bred again. 

So the AKC is not a mark of quality, just a good indicator that the pup is out of purebred parents. 

The SV demands more of breeding stock, and I had heard that they have to approve a mating, but I do not know what kind of formality that is. I do know that if a particular dog is used too much, they can step in and give him a break -- refuse to register anything out of him for a few months. They do require a breed survey, hip scores, and titles on breeding stock. 

Maybe that is more info than you are looking for. 

Inbreeding is not against the law. It can be iffy because recessive traits are more likely to appear in the offspring. One should have an excellent reason for doing so.


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## Samba

Unless something is not correct, it would appear to me that Kalmes is the result of a father to daughter breeding. Did I draw that pedigree right?


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## Doc

I'm confused. I like the way I drew it but it is late ..... LOL I could be wrong? Surely not ... roflmao


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## Doc

Actually, the sire of your dog is the line bred dog. His sire is the grand sire on the dam side. So KAGB should be very similar to GVDGH.

Who is your dogs dam? What does her pedigree look like?


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## Doc

Samba said:


> Unless something is not correct, it would appear to me that Kalmes is the result of a father to daughter breeding. Did I draw that pedigree right?


I think you missed too! LOL I need a diagram but after drawing it again, I think the sire of her dog is the line bred dog. We don't have information on the dam of her dog.

I think ...


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## Doc

I would say that inbreeding is a form of line breeding, not the other way around.


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## Samba

I was talking about the sire of her pup, Kalmes, not the actual pup, Sin. Could it be more confusing? lol


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## Doc

Samba said:


> I was talking about the sire of her pup, Kalmes, not the actual pup, Sin. Could it be more confusing? lol


I see the father daughter cross ..... you are right.  Have mercy - roflmao.

PSSSS ... it happens often in dog breeding, but don't tell anyone.:blush:


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

this is very funny. how do you think we got different breeds to begin with INBREEDING !!


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## Doc

I went to an agricultural university - I've seen animals breed!


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## AgileGSD

katieliz said:


> you're thinking in human terms about the breeding of dogs. there's nothing disturbing about linebreeding or inbreeding. as chris said, it's done by experienced breeders to solidify type. foolish for the inexperienced tho. and do find out all you can about grizzly, because your dog has a genetic load from him.


 It isn't just to solidify "type" (as in looks) but any desirable traits including temperament and health traits. ITA there is nothing "disturbing" about it. There are plenty of extremely healthy linebred and inbred dogs and plenty of very unhealthy dogs from outcross pedigrees.


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## Jessiewessie99

Inbred.o.o


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## selzer

please explain, "Inbred.o.o" thanks.


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## Jessiewessie99

selzer said:


> please explain, "Inbred.o.o" thanks.


Thats my confused face.Is it good or bad that her dog has inbreeding or linebreeding?


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## selzer

Neither, just the fact that it has inbreeding. 

It really depends on the reason they felt that inbreeding made sense. For example, if they bred father to daughter because their bitch went into heat and they did not realize it, well....

I think that having a pedigree with decent line breeding in it, is actually a good thing. 

Someone said that this was an acceptable practice even in Germany. I think it is not. 2-3 is ok in Germany. But the sire here is 1-2 which is not considered acceptable. 

I do not think that the OP should worry overmuch about this, but since he was already concerned about the hips and is only now researching the dog's pedigree, this dog should not be considered as a breeding prospect. 

Breeding dogs should be bought whether puppy or adult with breeding in mind, not something with consider after we already have the dog. 

Other than that, why worry about how inbred the sire was? If the sire carried a lot of undesireable hertitable traits, well, that could be a concern or not. I think once the puppy is yours, you just deal with whatever comes up, take it as a learning experience, and ask to see a few pedigrees and health certifications before buying next time.


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## Jessiewessie99

selzer said:


> Neither, just the fact that it has inbreeding.
> 
> It really depends on the reason they felt that inbreeding made sense. For example, if they bred father to daughter because their bitch went into heat and they did not realize it, well....
> 
> I think that having a pedigree with decent line breeding in it, is actually a good thing.
> 
> Someone said that this was an acceptable practice even in Germany. I think it is not. 2-3 is ok in Germany. But the sire here is 1-2 which is not considered acceptable.
> 
> I do not think that the OP should worry overmuch about this, but since he was already concerned about the hips and is only now researching the dog's pedigree, this dog should not be considered as a breeding prospect.
> 
> Breeding dogs should be bought whether puppy or adult with breeding in mind, not something with consider after we already have the dog.
> 
> Other than that, why worry about how inbred the sire was? If the sire carried a lot of undesireable hertitable traits, well, that could be a concern or not. I think once the puppy is yours, you just deal with whatever comes up, take it as a learning experience, and ask to see a few pedigrees and health certifications before buying next time.


Thank god I dont wanna breed.whew.


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## ShepherdsField

It's done, but it is not healthy. The genetic rules are the same for humans and animals. They don't bend because a breeder wants to 'solidify' type. Genetic diversity has been scientifically proven to be evolutionarily healthier.


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## abby

ok being a bit thick here linebreeding is not too bad say as 5-5?


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## LaRen616

I do not plan on breeding my dog. Just felt that it was gross and way to closely bred.
Daddy+Daughter=


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## Samba

I once had a dog who had only one grandpa! It didn't work out for him as he got all the bad stuff. Course, it could have gone the other way, but when you do this the recessives have a way of showing up.


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## Emoore

LaRen616 said:


> I do not plan on breeding my dog. Just felt that it was gross and way to closely bred.
> Daddy+Daughter=


You're thinking of it from a human perspective. 



SheherdsField said:


> They don't bend because a breeder wants to 'solidify' type. Genetic diversity has been scientifically proven to be evolutionarily healthier.


True, but from that perspective mutts are evolutionarily healthier than purebreeds. There has to be some linebreeding to create breeds of dogs.


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## Samba

It is the beginning. Von Stephanitz inbred heavily on Horand and also Luchs, his brother, to consolidate the bloodline and set type. Horand's son, Hektor von Schwaben, the second German Sieger, was bred to his half-sister as well as through daughters of his own sons, Beowulf, Heinz von Starkenberg, and Pilot III.


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## duramax

In the horse world we call it, line breeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't work. LOL


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## AgileGSD

ShepherdsField said:


> It's done, but it is not healthy. The genetic rules are the same for humans and animals. They don't bend because a breeder wants to 'solidify' type. Genetic diversity has been scientifically proven to be evolutionarily healthier.


 Within a breeding program one can use linebreeding and even inbreeding carefully to produce dogs with more predictable temperament, health and type. This should not be confused with lack of genetic diversity within the breed's population. Genetic diversity is extremely important in population genetics.

The splits which exist in the higher number breeds can actually be a good thing because there are multiple separate gene pools not often crossed within one breed. This offers the potential for genetic diversity if one segment develops a widespread problem. Some breeds really lack genetic diversity within the entire popualtion. This is what results in one or widespread health issues, which are found in all or nearly all individuals. The only real solution in such breeds would be to outcross to a different breed to re-introduce normal genes for the health issue(s). For example: all Cavaliers have a genetic heart disease, although some do not show signs of it until they are older. The breed lacks genetic diversity - there is no outcross available within the breed which can produce normal hearts.


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## katieliz

samba you know your gsd history, very cool.

agile, i think it's very, very seldom that anyone would use inbreeding to solidify temperment and/or health. actually i think experienced gsd breeders who do inbreed usually do so extremely carefully, with the hope of at least _maintaining_ health and temperment, in their quest to recreate a certain type of physical specimen. i tend to agree with shepherdsfield that stable health and temperment are best served by genetic diversity.

laren616, it's not incest in the animal world, just a practice used by experienced breeders for a specific reason, or an accident, or mistake by those who don't know better.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Samba said:


> It is the beginning. Von Stephanitz inbred heavily on Horand and also Luchs, his brother, to consolidate the bloodline and set type. Horand's son, Hektor von Schwaben, the second German Sieger, was bred to his half-sister as well as through daughters of his own sons, Beowulf, Heinz von Starkenberg, and Pilot III.


Right, but that's not necessary anymore right? With something like 100,000 GSDs born every year, there should be other ways to "make it work" right?

I got pedigrees with both my rescue girls. One was an oops, mother-son breeding and she was a physical mess, heartbreakingly awful. And Bella has the same names repeated throughout her pedigree, has plasmoma, some disc stuff already, so watching her for other autoimmune things and the disc stuff/arthritis...just isn't hardy. Makes me sad for them, that their genetic destiny was set by a mistake or by people who were not breeding for the dog's life but for its looks.


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## Samba

I think that is probably so. It is necessary to set type in creating a breed. How necessary after that though and to what degree is it useful versus risky, I don't know?


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## AgileGSD

katieliz said:


> agile, i think it's very, very seldom that anyone would use inbreeding to solidify temperment and/or health. actually i think experienced gsd breeders who do inbreed usually do so extremely carefully, with the hope of at least _maintaining_ health and temperment, in their quest to recreate a certain type of physical specimen. i tend to agree with shepherdsfield that stable health and temperment are best served by genetic diversity.


Are you suggesting linebreeding/inbreeding is only ever used by show breeders? 

Individual breeders using inbreeding or linebreeding does not affect the genetic diversity of the breed as a whole. Unless of course, they are all inbreeding/linebreeding on the same few dogs. Too breeders outcrossing to the next big thing can very much affect the genetic diversity of a breed and it is how bottlenecks are usually created. 

As a breed GSDs have quite a bit of diversity. There are German working lines (often separated further in East and West), German show lines, American show lines and pet lines. Dogs are more often than not bred only within their own "type". In BCs, it was accidentally found that the show and working lines were as genetically different as separate breeds. There is reason to believe this would be true of most breeds, which is actually extremely good news for genetic diversity. In one toy breed, where a bottleneck was created by breedings all using one popular sire a group of show breeders are using pet lines from a USDA licensed breeder to add diversity to the gene pool. The dogs from this breeder are the only ones they could find without the bottleneck (and interestingly enough, at least one of them finished and they are producing show quality offspring). As much as people complain about the splits and about "bad breeders" such splits seem like they may actually be beneficial for the breed.


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## cliffson1

If breeding is done by the truly knowledgable then they will know when line/inbreeding is necessary and which dogs to do it with. Its not the line/inbreeding that is as dangerous as people breeding dogs and having no knowledge of what they are doing and WITH what they are doing! JMO


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## katieliz

agile, i should have been more clear...i only know about inbreeding with respect to german shepherd dogs and specifically american showlines. sorry about that. i know absolutely nothing about any of the other breeds, or the current german working, show, czech or ddr lines (or even if i know how to spell them correctly), although i am familiar with the old, old german lines from back in the day when there were only american breds and imports (late 50's early 60's).


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## ShepherdsField

After having a very sick puppy who was 75% trace back to one American line champion and his son and who didn't make it to four, we were very careful in trying to choose pups whose lines were diversified. Our other 4 year old, who is a white GSD born to B&T parents has never been sick and has only had 'healthy dog' vet visits, shots, exams. Very healthy boy, excellent termperament, highly intelligent. Our youngest pup is from his mother, who has one white line granddam and one Bl & red German showline granddam with American line B& T grandsires. The pups sire was a sable with DDR and American showlines in him. It did not produce strong coloration, as he seems to be showing alot of tan, some sableing and a black mask and saddle. Only time will tell about the temperament, talent and health. So far, so good. 

Our other puppy is from a separate breeder who himself has GSD's of American showline, German Working line and Czech working line and white traditional American lines. He mixes them, then pulls them back, producing pups with varying GSD lines. She's turning 7 months this week. So far so good. I'll keep posting on how this turns out.


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## buddy

I still own Bear.And is Sin not a great dog.Line breeding is not always a bad thing.Bear has 2 nice pups out of that litter that is on the police force and doing weel.I did not know when I bought him he was line breed.But after talking to my vet and doing all the leg work he was fine.His hips are good and temperment is good.


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## Jessiewessie99

buddy said:


> I still own Bear.And is Sin not a great dog.Line breeding is not always a bad thing.Bear has 2 nice pups out of that litter that is on the police force and doing weel.I did not know when I bought him he was line breed.But after talking to my vet and doing all the leg work he was fine.His hips are good and temperment is good.


Can you be more clear please?Its kind of hard to understand the above statement ^^


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## buddy

I am the breeder of her dog and she says I do not own the male dog anymore and she has no idea what she is talking about.I still own him.I did not breed him.I bought him already linebreed and when I talked to my vet he told me to check his hips and I did with OFA and they said he was good and we did a temperment test on him and he is a great dog.And really nice looking and put together well.And none of my females that I have breed him to are related to him.But no I have no breed him this year because I had a hard time selling the black pups.I just wanted to set the record straight.


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## buddy

And actually Sin does not look like his Dad he is built like his mom and Grandpa on the other side.He looks just like his Grandpa on the other side of the papers.My old Ruger.And he was a heck of a dog.


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## LaRen616

buddy said:


> And actually Sin does not look like his Dad he is built like his mom and Grandpa on the other side.He looks just like his Grandpa on the other side of the papers.My old Ruger.And he was a heck of a dog.


I didn't say Sinister looked like his dad (bear) I said he looked like *Grizzly Von Der Gutten Haus*


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## buddy

Personal attacks are not allowed


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## buddy

I'm getting out of the blacks and smaller shepherds.


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## LaRen616

Personal attacks are not allowed


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## onyx'girl

buddy~ I hope if you are breeding you are breeding to the standard for height/weight and coat type.


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## LaRen616

onyx'girl said:


> buddy~ I hope if you are breeding you are breeding to the standard for height/weight and coat type.


 
He isn't most of the dogs are 90+ pounds and Sinister is 27 1/2 inches tall


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## buddy

For your info .But I had just bought a couple that are gonna be over 100.And that is what I am getting into.Getting ouyt of the high drive dogs and into the more calm family dogs.


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## onyx'girl

Are you having the hips OFA'd before you breed, any health testing?????
I won't even ask about titles.


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## buddy

I did not tell you I would put him to sleep and I told you to read your contract.I told you to wait and see if he grew up alittle more and if they would seed themselves alittle better and I also need an OFA report on him and I would take him back and give you another puppy and you asked me if I was gonna put him to sleep and I said I would consalt my vet.And you are the only dog in all the years I have been breeding that has ever had a compliat about any of my dogs hip.And that is the other reason he is gonna get fixed.I have a female from that same breeding and I just took her in for her prelims and she came back excellent.


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## angelaw

And this sort of thing is NOT allowed on the board. Breeder bashing isn't allowed, if you have something to say against the breeder or a beef against the breeder, either do it privately or on another board. This is not the one for it.


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