# Bear's Pedigree...



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Someone told me you can tell if your dog has East German lines or west german lines from their pedigree... Is this true? How do you tell?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=1888720


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

from the dogs posted on your pedigree link, I see only american lined dogs. Maybe if you go farther back you might find some german dogs but the ones you posted are not east or west.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Your dog is line bred on a dog (Valiantdale's boss Von Icom) that goes back to some DDR (East German) about 8 generations behind your dog.

So Yes, your dog does have some East German in there. You can tell by expanding the pedigree in pedigreedatabase to see what is behind the first couple of generations that are showing.


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

How can you tell?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

robk said:


> Your dog is line bred on a dog (Valiantdale's boss Von Icom) that goes back to some DDR (East German) about 8 generations behind your dog.
> 
> So Yes, your dog does have some East German in there. You can tell by expanding the pedigree in pedigreedatabase to see what is behind the first couple of generations that are showing.


Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks for clarifying rob, I am no pedigree expert for sure


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

But how can you tell on the pedigree if they're American or German? Does it say it some where?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

When you see the letters "DDR" which stands for Deutsche Demokratische Republik; that meas East German. I would not call your dog DDR though. The DDR has be diluted over many generations.


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

So basically he's American lines with some East German way back? What about working or show lines can you tell that as well?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jd414 said:


> So basically he's American lines with some East German way back? What about working or show lines can you tell that as well?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Yeah... mostly american show lines with DDR way back. The DDR dog (which has some American lines in him as well) is your dogs great great great grandfather on one side and great great great grandfather on the other, so it's pretty far back. Your dog would be pretty much considered American bred.

The DDR dog is from working lines, but there's no such thing as American working lines.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

You have to go pretty far back to get to dogs that came from Germany. Back then the split between working and show line was not as drastic as it is today. The show lines were also pretty good working dogs back then. Your dog is as American line as any other American line dog. If you think about it, if you go far enough back, all German Shepherd dogs originated from dogs from Germany.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

All American lines trace back to German lines eventually. This pedigree would be considered totally American. The German dogs are way to far back for it to be considered anything but American. I wouldn't call it American show lines though. He does go back to some prominent and successful American kennels a few generations back, but recent generations have been almost exclusively American breeders who breed for companions rather than show dogs, most of them focusing on oversized dogs.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as how to tell the lines, the only way to know for sure is to know the kennel names of the breeders, what country they come from, and what line they breed. Registration numbers can also indicate the country in which a dog was born, but that won't necessarily provide much information about what line the dog is from. Dogs in the US are AKC registered, and that includes dogs of working lines, American show lines, American pet lines, German show lines, BYBs, etc... Language can provide a clue too. If the names are American sounding, they're probably American lines. If the names are in German they may be German lines, but that still won't say if they're German show or working. So the only foolproof way to know what line, or mix of lines, a dog is from is to know the kennels.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> *All American lines trace back to German lines eventually.* This pedigree would be considered totally American. The German dogs are way to far back for it to be considered anything but American. I wouldn't call it American show lines though. He does go back to some prominent and successful American kennels a few generations back, but recent generations have been almost exclusively American breeders who breed for companions rather than show dogs, most of them focusing on oversized dogs.


:thumbup:
If they didn't, they wouldn't be called German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Thanks everyone


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi - your dog is "american bred" . There is one dog 8 generations back on the sires , top line , which has Jamie Stolzenfels a daughter of Bodo Grafental an East German dog , and further back on her dams line Enno Antrefftal a west German dog of note. 
I was interested in Jamie .
Her best litter was to Gauner Kirschental who was a Herding Sieger , which is what you have (see later on pedigree of "Boss")
There was a good article about Jamie in the German Shepherd Quarterly. Gauner Kirschental graced the front cover of this magazine. This dog was used by Fernheim and if memory serves correct they had contributed some dogs to guide dogs USA . I was interested because at the time I had several dogs in guide (certified) and was helping organize dogs for a breeding program - which all fell by the side when the next administration came in and said no GSD! --- any whoooooo . These were some good dogs coming out of those American breedings particularly out of Valiantdale -- I know because I would encounter them and compete against them in obedience trial competition. Valiantdale's Boss von Icon Valiantdale's Boss Vom Icon
was a very correct , solid temperament , easily trained dog -- I had the pleasure of seeing him personally. Now isn't it too bad that this line was swallowed up by the rest of the pedigree of Bear by lines that are pet bred , with a lean toward producing over sized dogs .
In other words expecting this to surface and have any influence on breeding is as good as none .


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah... mostly american show lines with DDR way back. The DDR dog (which has some American lines in him as well) is your dogs great great great grandfather on one side and great great great grandfather on the other, so it's pretty far back. Your dog would be pretty much considered American bred.
> 
> The DDR dog is from working lines, but *there's no such thing as American working lines*.


 

*Huh!*


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What? Are there? 

I'm sure there are American line dogs that can and do work, but there's no "American working line" per say. Not like the German and Czech working and show split. That's what I meant.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> What? Are there?
> 
> I'm sure there are American line dogs that can and do work, but there's no "American working line" per say. Not like the German and Czech working and show split. That's what I meant.


 
What about the American (and Canadian and Mexican as well) breeders who are breeding dogs for ScH, PP and military or police work, are these not American working dogs? Herding or Seeing Eye dogs? S&R dogs?

Don't you think that there is a split in the American GSD's between show and working, or maybe you think that these are all the same?

BTW, what is a "line"as you use the term?


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> BTW, what is a "line"as you use the term?


Just the way the different lines are classified - American show, WG show, EG work, etc. 

The OP didn't seem to have much of a grasp of the different lines out there, so I was just trying to answer their question in a basic and simple way. 

Wasn't trying to imply American lines can't work and there aren't some American breeders breed them to work because I'm sure there are - though i'm sure they are far and few between too. 

Just assuming here, but "a split" with the American lines (pet lines included) is much different than the split with the German lines. I think it's pretty safe to assume that a very high majority of todays American GSD's were not bred with the intention to work or even to show.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

carmen,,not to go off T,,but I had a Bodo Grafental grandson (Otto Stolzenfels) . Otto was used in Fidelco program so I'm sure your right when you say they contributed dogs to Fidelco. This was back in the late 80's.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

He is from a breeder who has retained his own dogs for many generations without being active in any discipline to define their type...not working, not show, not ASL, not WL...just "AKC German Shepherds"....all current dogs will go back to imported dogs if you go back far enough....just as most of us can trace our heritage back to some distant or not too distant ancestor who came to the US....in the case of your dogs pedigree, there is nothing to signify a 'type' within a reasonable frame...yes - there is a 1991 born dog of DDR heritage...but that one diluted line will not 'type' your dog as a DDR dog....he is a "purebred AKC German Shepherd" bred for companionship as I read the pedigree.

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are many American breeders breeding 'working lines' - but they are using European stock and pure European pedigrees! Carmen, Chris, Christine, Anne and I are all in America - and our dogs are bred in America - but they are still all European Working Lines....not American working lines, as the whole pedigree is traced on every line to European dogs.

Lee


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I noticed one dog on the dam's side who appeared to be a sable. I wasn't sure if she was truly a sable or just had fading pigmentation so I clicked on her:

Royalair's Jordon Bar Kody

and found this interesting looking dog:

Manson Vom Kuhnhof

This doesn't really mean anything other than the fact that if you did deep enough into any pedigree you might find something of interest. What I think is interesting is that this is a typical pet type pedigree but it is actually on the database so you can see what is there. So many are not there and it is hard to find anything out about the dogs. I spent many hours trying to find any information on my old dogs pedigrees but all roads led to dead ends.


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

robk said:


> I noticed one dog on the dam's side who appeared to be a sable. I wasn't sure if she was truly a sable or just had fading pigmentation so I clicked on her:
> 
> Royalair's Jordon Bar Kody
> 
> ...


Thanks and I agree it's interesting to read over and see where your dog came from... 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Hi - your dog is "american bred" . There is one dog 8 generations back on the sires , top line , which has Jamie Stolzenfels a daughter of Bodo Grafental an East German dog , and further back on her dams line Enno Antrefftal a west German dog of note.
> I was interested in Jamie .
> Her best litter was to Gauner Kirschental who was a Herding Sieger , which is what you have (see later on pedigree of "Boss")
> There was a good article about Jamie in the German Shepherd Quarterly. Gauner Kirschental graced the front cover of this magazine. This dog was used by Fernheim and if memory serves correct they had contributed some dogs to guide dogs USA . I was interested because at the time I had several dogs in guide (certified) and was helping organize dogs for a breeding program - which all fell by the side when the next administration came in and said no GSD! --- any whoooooo . These were some good dogs coming out of those American breedings particularly out of Valiantdale -- I know because I would encounter them and compete against them in obedience trial competition. Valiantdale's Boss von Icon Valiantdale's Boss Vom Icon
> ...


Are you saying the rest of the lines are bad because they're pet bred?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Just the way the different lines are classified - American show, WG show, EG work, etc.
> 
> *What are the classification criteria that you use to "split' them? I.E. differences that allow someone to differentiate the dogs - conformation, temperament, size, ????????*
> 
> ...


What % of the "German show" or "German working" line dogs are actually "working' or showing? And i wonder where anyone would get reliable numbers for any of these categories????


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The lines that a dog comes from are determined by it's pedigree. Not whether or not it has a vocation, or what that vocation is, or where it was born. A show line dog doing police work is still a show line dog. A working line dog being a pet is still a working line dog. A dog of German lines born in the US is still a German line dog. A dog of American lines born outside the US is still American lines. 

As I said earlier, the only way for someone to be able to tell with certainty what bloodlines a dog comes from is to know the different bloodlines and kennels that fit into each type.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

robk said:


> You have to go pretty far back to get to dogs that came from Germany. Back then the split between working and show line was not as drastic as it is today. The show lines were also pretty good working dogs back then. Your dog is as American line as any other American line dog. If you think about it, if you go far enough back, all German Shepherd dogs originated from dogs from Germany.


:hammer: One day I was very very bored and traced one of my American Show Line boys, Slider, back to Horand von Grafrath/Hektor Linksrhein. Haven't been that bored since then!!!


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

For myself, I "determine" a line by purpose of breeding of most of the dogs in the breedings. Back in the 60s and 70s, you can see the German herding lines were somewhat separated, but the successful schutzhund competition dogs and successful conformation competition dogs often came from similar parentage and intermingled frequently.

In more recent decades, it's very clear that some bloodlines have been purpose bred from successful conformation competitors (not just KK1 and V rated, but VA and multiple V1 ratings)--and those are what I consider "conformation lines." You see the same thing in the AKC bloodlines--those bred for the purpose of conformation competition with multiple Select Champions and almost every dog in the pedigree with a Ch. in front of its name. 

I have not seen many AKC kennels that were purpose breeding for performance competition, with pedigrees full of OTCH and UD and TDX back through the generations. There are some, of course, and also some people doing this sort of breeding today, but they are often breeding to imported working dogs or are bringing in successful conformation dogs (imported or Am-bred)--so I don't really consider that a single bloodline--it's still too intermingled with dogs from other types of bloodlines (bred with other primary drivers of the breeding decision).

And of course, you also see working or performance bred European lines--these will have indicators of performance success throughout the pedigree--multiple BSP or WUSV competitors throughout the generations.

So, that's how I tell the difference when looking at a 5-generation pedigree--if I'm asked to give a label. (And it helps that I know many kennel and individual dog names--so name recognition and a good memory makes it faster/easier.)


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Chris Wild said:


> The lines that a dog comes from are determined by it's pedigree. Not whether or not it has a vocation, or what that vocation is, or where it was born. A show line dog doing police work is still a show line dog. A working line dog being a pet is still a working line dog. A dog of German lines born in the US is still a German line dog. A dog of American lines born outside the US is still American lines.
> 
> As I said earlier, the only way for someone to be able to tell with certainty what bloodlines a dog comes from is to know the different bloodlines and kennels that fit into each type.


That makes sense


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------

