# Family dog



## AngelaHazle (Feb 11, 2014)

I've been hunting around for a breeder. I want a good dog, but I'm not concerned with shows or titles. I just want a dog with a good temperament and one that will be good for obedience. It seems like the puppies bred for shows and titles are very expensive. I know I will have to pay a price for a good dog (I'm not looking for cheap), but some breeders seem very high. Can anyone help me find a good breeder that doesn't necessarily breed for shows and titles?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Breeders don't breed for shows and titles. Breeders go to shows and put titles on their dogs in order to prove that the dog has solid temperament and is solid in obedience. That proof gives you a better idea that the puppies the dam and sire produce will have a solid temperament and be capable of whatever it is that the parents were titled in.

A dog that shows its obedient on its home turf, might not necessarily have the temperament to do it outside that home turf. So testing a dog, outside the place where its most comfortable, is the best way we have right now of proving a dog has a solid temperament.

Not sure what you consider expensive, but you should expect to pay $1000-$1500 for a well bred working dog. Show dogs (conformation) sometimes go for more than that.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

I just went through this.
A well bred dog and a good dog are not necessarily the same thing. Trust me...Ive seen pedigrees up the wazoo with titles like crazy but it was just weird/wrong pairings between parents etc. (I didn't know this, I was told by people who know these things after I asked and looked into it further)

Look for a breeder with a solid breeding program that produces balanced dogs. Family dogs can get titles too and they should be able to if the dog is appropriately pedigreed.

Be very VERY careful if you're putting a price tag on this and if that amount has anything to do with who you choose or the dog you choose. It's the wrong way to come at purchasing something that is going to be in your life and a part of your family for over a decade.

Find someone who makes sense to you. Who has a good reputation. Do lots and lots of homework (I looked hard for months...and started about a year ago) Talk to people...lots of people. If you find a breeder you like ask around about them...find their puppies and see how they are doing out in the real world. 

Research...homework...research...homework...ask lots of questions!!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

^ yepyep

Titles in and of themselves only tell you that somebody put a certain amount of time and energy into training and trialing that dog.

They don't guarantee a good dog. My crazypants mutt puppy Pongu has dozens of titles, more than most solid breeding dogs. But he's flat-out insane, unsafe around children, and not remotely the kind of dog I would recommend to anyone ever. His wall of ribbons and championship certificates doesn't change that one bit.

What it _does_ show is that I have spent a lot of time on my dog. I know that dog inside and out. I know all the many ways in which he is a nutcase. And if he were a GOOD dog, I would know all the many ways in which he were a good dog, and I would hopefully be able to make an informed decision about what hypothetical mate would complement his good qualities and shore up his weaknesses.

That's what you want your breeder to be able to demonstrate, and that's why titles and show results matter. A lot of breeders can talk a good game about their dogs' stellar temperaments and intelligence and athleticism, etc. etc. -- but if there isn't any external proof to back up those words, what are they really worth?

Whether or not you ever plan to go into the ring yourself, presumably you want a dog with certain predictable traits from known bloodlines. (Otherwise, why not adopt from a rescue?) And if you want a dog with predictable traits, your chances are improved if you look for breeders who are training and testing their dogs in some externally judged venue.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Be afraid of getting a cheaper GSD, I was looking for a good working line puppy a long time, being scared to get one with Cost of Dog Hip Dysplasia Surgery? - Ask Jeeves
Intellect, temperament and health are inherited in dogs. Shows are not for fun and titles, the only reason to hold shows is for breeding healthy dogs. Schutzhund competitions prove that the breed still has not only good physical capabilities, but posesses high intellect as well. The most expensive puppies are from parents, champions in both. But in the end it happens that the "plasticine dog" ( GSD commonly called) is shaped by his owner.


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## AngelaHazle (Feb 11, 2014)

Thank you everyone for the help. I believe from what I've read here and from a few websites that a working line would be best for my family and I. 

Does anyone have any recommendations, good or bad reviews, on breeders in Texas. I live in south Texas and don't mind driving a bit, but the closer the better/easier.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

AngelHazle, before you call or talk to any breeder make sure you take HOURS to go thru ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html

That way you'll really know about the breed before talking to a good breeder. The 'bad' breeder could care less what you know, they'll just take your $$$$ and care less when your Hip Dysplastic fearful dog bites all your kids/neighbors/friends  The good breeder wants the BEST owners for their dogs. They spend all the time/effort/money to breed the best dogs they can so they want the best owners matched up.

Good luck!


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## AngelaHazle (Feb 11, 2014)

Thanks. I did go through that page and it has given me a new outlook on how to choose our puppy and new questions to ask possible breeders.

Does anyone have any reviews on Fernheimgsds and Renaissance Kennels?


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

I have to second what most of the others have said. 

We were looking for a solid temperament first and foremost. I discounted a couple breeders due to their own temperament.... I finally found our breeder, the pups were expensive, certainly more than I have ever paid for a dog. I could not find anything negative about her from people I spoke to or on line. But there wasn't a lot of info about her either. 

The parents were titled and were quite impressive. I had been around k9's as a child and I was expecting neurotic, full of crazy drive parents even though she said they could turn it off. We decided to give her a try and meet her in person as well as the parents. We fell in love with all of them and put a deposit down right then and there. 

Looking back, we couldn't have done any better. She read us to a tee. I tested her when the pups were about 4 weeks and she nailed it. She chose our pup for us and nailed that too. We still chat with her over email about every couple of weeks. She has a true interest in the pups well being without being overbearing. 

I want another from her but I'm afraid my wife would divorce me  joking...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

AngelaHazle said:


> Thank you everyone for the help. I believe from what I've read here and from a few websites that a working line would be best for my family and I.
> 
> Does anyone have any recommendations, good or bad reviews, on breeders in Texas. I live in south Texas and don't mind driving a bit, but the closer the better/easier.


Be very very careful with that and understand the exercise needs of a working line. I've had both and the show line IMO is far more suited to a pet home. But no matter which puppy you chose be aware a German Shepherd is going to require plenty of training, socialization, and exercise. There is a reason Shepherd puppies are know as Land Sharks.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have had my bitch for over 7 yrs now. Purchased her site unseen and didnt know the breeder. I did spend about 6 months looking and researching. I finally met my breeder over Thanksgiving 2013. Couldnt be happier with the choice I made over 7 yrs ago. Not only do I have a fantastic competition dog (AKC obedience), but family pet, great mother to her pups, natural protector of myself and home. Very balanced dog. Can go anywhere dog. Meet any dog, dog.

Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Shows are not for fun and titles, the only reason to hold shows is for breeding healthy dogs.


Then why are health, longevity & temperament so messed up, & across sooo many breeds, including the GSD? Despite all the lip service paid to health, shows neither reward nor promote healthy dogs. They're rarely little more than beauty contests gone awry. 10-20 years back most of the GSDs shown locally (Eastern Ia/Western Il area) had atrocious temperaments, as well. Conformation shows don't promote much but ribbons & points.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Much to the dismay of the sport and show breeders, there are breeders that breed family companions that can do obedience, agility, UDX, etc.
The problem is that there are more show and sport pups than there is demand. Therefore these breeders claim that their dogs make great family pets and throw the companion dog breeders under the bus because their dogs aren't titles or in the show ring.
I do not think the OP will get unbiased advice on this forum when it comes to asking about a breeder that produces stable and solid family companions.


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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

Doc's post was pretty blunt but totally on point. There's a lot of good points from others. We got a good Shepherd for our family but I'll be honest and say we probably didn't get the best Shepherd for our family. We got a working dog, which means she is healthy, but her energy is out the whazoo--she might be good at some things but she'd never be still or calm enough for obedience. It's hard to find a breeder that specializes in less hulky, land sharky dogs, but they are out there.


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## AngelaHazle (Feb 11, 2014)

Doc, do you have any suggestions for family pet breeders?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

There are pets and then there are pets. It's hard to get good advice on a forum because unless you provide a lot of information about what you're looking for, your lifestyle, and your goals for the dog, it is difficult for any of us to make more than the broadest of recommendations. And even then, all of our opinions as to what constitutes a good "pet" may be different from each other's and from yours.

For example (and not to pick on Jrnabors here, it's just an easy example), the post above yours describes a "still or calm" dog as being good for obedience. It would not even occur to me to imagine those as good traits for an obedience dog, because _I'm_ looking for a top-level competition obedience dog, and that means I want a fast, flashy, biddable, high-drive performance dog who can do a 12-hour trial on Saturday and go right back to another one on Sunday. Placid and calm are no good for my goals. So if you asked _me_ what makes a good "obedience" dog I'd answer very differently, because my whole conception of what that word means is different.

Because different people's definitions can vary so widely, your best bet is to go to clubs in your area and see the dogs in person and figure out which ones _you_ want to live with. Go to breed clubs and training clubs and (if you can find any) big cluster events -- try to find a conformation show that also has an obedience, Rally, or agility event being hosted somewhere in the same vicinity.

Around here, you'll see mostly American showlines in the conformation ring and mostly German showlines and working line GSDs in the performance rings, so if you hit a big show, it can be a good opportunity to see all three types at the same time. Breed club events tend to bring out a good sampling of the different types as well.

If there isn't a breed club nearby or they aren't hosting any events in the near future, my next suggestion would be to go to a good training club in your area and talk to the instructors of the pet obedience classes (look for the ones like "puppy manners" or Canine Good Citizen prep). Ask if they have any breeder recommendations. Frequently the instructors who teach the pet classes have seen a decent number of pups being produced by local breeders, and they can often point you toward or away from particular lines in their area. You might even be able to see some of those dogs in person if they have any currently enrolled.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Any decent GSD should do well at obedience. They might not be the competition *stars* that Goldens are, but their basic nature inclines them to be biddable, easily trained & eager to please. I cringe when I read of people who can't get a reliable recall on their GSD. That simply shouldn't happen.


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## Anastasia (Oct 7, 2011)

Can I ask if you have thought about working with a GSD rescue. If you want a puppy and not an older dog (trust me, there are loads of young dogs in rescue) then the rescue will contact you when they have what age range your looking for. 
You will need to wait for a puppy from a breeder also, most breeders have a waiting list, they need to breed the dog etc before a pup is ready. It took us a year from the time I put down my deposit until my puppy was ready to come home. 

Just a thought about getting a wonderful family dog without spending $2000.00.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

they might be "beauty contests gone awry" but when it comes to a family pet and you get one from a "pet quality breeder" and it has a horrendous overbite and you need a special dish for it to eat from you will wish someone had paid attention to dentition a bit more along the way
or hip dysplasia because nobody cares if it has good hips since it's gonna be "just a pet"
or epi or megaesophagus or any of the other things that the so called pet breeders dont care about

show and working breeders always have pet quality dogs and that is a breeder whom i would visit instead of people who breed for just pets 

such huge misconceptions here wow


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

RubyTuesday said:


> Any decent GSD should do well at obedience. They might not be the competition *stars* that Goldens are, but their basic nature inclines them to be biddable, easily trained & eager to please. I cringe when I read of people who can't get a reliable recall on their GSD. That simply shouldn't happen.


Totally agree Ruby. GSD make phenomenal obedience dogs. The biggest mistake most people make is they try to train them like Goldens or BC. Even my very drivey dogs don't handle mindless drilling like some breeds. They are just too smart for it and don't understand the point.  

YES on the reliable recall. Just like I have never understood GSD that roam. If I put my guys outside they might play for a few minutes and then they sit on the porch and wait for me or they stare at the house.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> YES on the reliable recall. Just like I have never understood GSD that roam. If I put my guys outside they might play for a few minutes and then they sit on the porch and wait for me or they stare at the house.



Haha reminds me of my dog, he can hardly go to the bathroom by himself, he just runs right back to the door when he's done 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> they might be "beauty contests gone awry" but when it comes to a family pet and you get one from a "pet quality breeder" and it has a horrendous overbite and you need a special dish for it to eat from you will wish someone had paid attention to dentition a bit more along the way
> or hip dysplasia because nobody cares if it has good hips since it's gonna be "just a pet"
> or epi or megaesophagus or any of the other things that the so called pet breeders dont care about
> 
> ...


What exactly is a 'pet quality breeder'? Whether show, working or companion lines, breeders should be striving to breed quality GSDs. The breeders I admire produce quality pets. This is true of those also breeding for show, sport or work. 

I most definitely value good dentition & consider it to be functional rather than cosmetic. Ditto health, structural soundness & longevity. Note, health to me encompasses mental strength & stability as well as physical. Nor should breeders neglect intelligence, judgment & biddability. 

It is a huge misconception to assume that those breeding companion GSDs are neglecting these vital criteria or that people seeking pets aren't concerned with these issues. As with any of the lines, the breeders range from excellent to gawdawful. That you wouldn't get a GSD from one of these breeders is fine. Intelligent people making careful, well considered decisions can still reasonably have different preferences. 

And yes, conformation shows are most definitely beauty contests gone awry. The VERY best that can be claimed for them is that they haven't seriously damaged all breeds yet. This doesn't mean that those breeding sl are necessarily 'bad' breeders. Nor does it mean that they're unconcerned with health, soundness & longevity. However, good sl GSD breeders are good breeders despite conformation shows not b/c of them. The shows have done nothing good for dogs in decades. NOTHING.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> Any decent GSD should do well at obedience. They might not be the competition *stars* that Goldens are, but their basic nature inclines them to be biddable, easily trained & eager to please.


There's really no reason they shouldn't be as good as Goldens in the competition obedience ring. _Any_ intelligent, biddable working breed should be able to excel.

But for whatever reason (and I have my speculations, although they're just speculations), GSDs have become a second-tier breed in that sport. Not exactly an "off breed," but less common even than Poodles.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

According to a friend who was active in obedience for many years top level obedience competition 'belongs' to Goldens. She thinks their slavish devotion resonates with current judges & the current 'style' of obedience. She feels strongly that Poodles & GSDs should do equally well but that they somehow don't 'fit' the current style. She never was a top level contender (Irish Wolfhounds, lol) but just loved it & has considered getting a rescue Poodle to do it again at some point. 

Merciel, I'd be interested in hearing your speculations as to why GSDs (& Poodles, for that matter) are 2nd tier in an endeavor that comes so naturally to them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think GSDs have a style that is more suited for demonstrating strength and power, even during obedience. Showing that "locked and loaded" look (and I do NOT mean icky stuff like rearing up during heeling, forging, or "leaking" drive vocally). When I think of some of my favorite GSDs as far as obedience training and performance, some of the traits I am seeing in their performance would not really matter in AKC style competition. Around here you see Goldens and Border Collies. They do very, very well in their style of obedience, so I can see why someone who is mainly interested in that ring would get one of those dogs. Also the trainers are used to helping with those breeds and those temperaments. We had some good obedience people come to Schutzhund training one day and the style was night and day! They trained *completely* different than we did even though I think every dog in the room was capable of nice obedience, either AKC or Schutzhund style. As an example, I also do flyball and talk about being out of my element, I have the ONLY flyball GSDs that compete in our region. It is hard to get really detailed training advice for a breed most people have no experience with. Not only is the temperament different, but the sheer size difference can really throw people. I have a small pit bull mix that has a very typical "flyball dog" look (some people even breed mixes to look like this dog, mine is a shelter dog) and it can be much easier to train her because she has the size, conformation, and temperament that the rest of the team and the community expect when it comes to helping each other with training.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*What exactly is a 'pet quality breeder'?*

they abound even here
those who breed for only pets because people dont care about showing their dogs or working them and want to pay less than going to a good breeder

low drive dogs they call them
people who just want a gsd to lay around the house purchase from them
probably the majority of breeders out there??
look at any of the links provided by potential customers who come on here to ask if this puppy is a good deal?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> Merciel, I'd be interested in hearing your speculations as to why GSDs (& Poodles, for that matter) are 2nd tier in an endeavor that comes so naturally to them.


Poodles are doing fine in obedience, IMO. They are about as common in that ring as I would expect them to be given the working traits and popularity of the breed in the U.S. as a whole.

I would _speculate_ that a lot of the drastic drop-off in GSD representation can be linked to the extreme fashion that prevailed in the AKC show ring for a while. It's not easy to find AKC conformation dogs who have the physical and mental capacity to excel in the performance rings -- that's why mostly you'll see German showlines and working line GSDs in the agility and obedience rings around here. I really don't want to start up that tired old "hate on ASLs" thing again, but it is true that many of the people who used to run American showlines have switched to different lines or out of the breed altogether.

And yeah, I agree with Liesje that size is also probably a factor to some extent. It's just easier to work with a smaller dog in the obedience/Rally ring. Even Pongu, who is _not_ a big dog, sometimes has difficulty in smaller rings. It's one of the reasons I keep an eye out for smaller GSDs like Carma, because if I end up getting a GSD down the road, I'm definitely going to be aiming for the small end of standard.

I think that a large part of why BCs and Goldens dominate the obedience ring is that it's pretty easy to find breeders who specialize in producing that type of performance dog and have a proven track record in those venues. In GSDs I can't think of that many names, and certainly none as prominent as High Times or Wildfire or any of those kennels.


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