# How to train a very close "front"



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

What method(s) have you used to get your dog comfortable with just being very close to you in a "front" position? 

And did it translate to a close front on the recall, or did you have to use a different technique. In other words, are these two different tasks for the dog to learn: seeking and maintaining the position when in front, and going into that position and holding it after the recall. 

(At this point, I'm just working on getting Falkor comfortable in being close in front. Recall position to come later on down the road).

Thanks!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

EDIT: ahahaha... I just reread your post and you asked how to just get him comfortable, lol. My bad, I thought you wanted to know how to do it.







Well for getting use to being in real close, I played a lot with Cody and Isa and petting them when they were reaaaally close to my front area. I would praise them and play tug with them and then let them hold it while they were close to me. Later on they got use to being extremely close because it was fun to be close to mommy.







Sometimes when I'm giving treats for doing fronts, they race to my stomach to see who can get infront the fastest.









But if you ever want to know "how" I taught, you can take this and use it however you like.









When I taught Cody to come in close, I used a clicker. Cody already new to come infront of me obviously for the come but he wasn't getting close enough. So when he came into me I leaned back, acting like I was going to move back but didn't move my feet, and he came in closer thinking I was moving backwards and that created him to put his head on my stomach so I would click/treat that. After a few times of doing that, he caught on real fast. Ever since then he's been doing extremely close fronts. Some times he would come in close but not close enough, ie head straight up on stomach, so I would point to my tummy and he would move in closer. With Isa, I'm still working on closer fronts with her and she's getting better each time. She's a little slower at learning then Cody was but she's starting to understand. 

This was last year before Cody retired, I had to point so he would move in closer









Him coming in closer










He was such an excellent obedience dog, I really wish he didn't have arthritis sometimes...


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

We're currently working on this. Once he's in close, I just repeat "here" in a calm voice and give him lots of praise, physical and verbal. I also give him treats from this position. I think some dogs are just not as comfortable being in that position than others. I don't know if it's avoidance or not. My guy will keep his body in, but not want to maintain eye contact for a long time and will then turn his head away after awhile. Also, there could be a medical problem as to why they can't maintain their heads up in that position and might need a chiropractic adjustment.

Just my meager experience


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I teach the front using food to encourage the dog to get nice and tight. I don't add it to the recall until both recall and front are pretty well perfect on their own.

One thing I have noticed that often causes dogs to sit too far back is the manner in which the dog sits. If a dog takes the sit position by leaving his front legs planted and tucking his butt up to his front legs, he stays nice and close. If, on the other hand, the dog tends to sit by putting his butt down and then dragging his front legs back into sit position, this will create a dog sitting far away. He may be super close, even touching when he stands in front, but as soon as he sits he ends up moving quite a few inches away because he's moving his front to meet his back end, rather than tucking his back end up close to his front. 

This can happen in basic position too, causing dogs who sit too far back when they stop in heeling. So always a good idea with young dogs to teach them to do a butt-tuck sit rather than a rock-backwards sit right from the beginning.

Once the 2 are put together, I will very often in training run backwards, sometimes even swinging a toy to really build the dog's drive and speed, and then I stop at the last second. This keeps the dog running fast and hard right to the end of the exercise, rather than slowing down considerably before getting to me. (That slowing down is another common cause of dogs sitting too far back.) I usually reward with a toy under my chin or food in my mouth at this stage, and drop it straight down so the dog has to be close in order to catch.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

Sorry I have a silly question, why train a sit that close any particular reason? my thinking Jesse knows sit, in front of me but not on top of me and he knows "by me" on my left side sitting, is obedience enough.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Because this is the schutzhund section and close, straight sits are required in order to earn full points in obedience.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

Ah thanks Chris for letting me know, now it makes sense and of course didn't see what section I was in, just went to 24 hour posts.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh, thanks everyone! I was just asking out of curiousity to see what different methods people will use. I've been told to move in to the dog to get them comfortable with the very close front, but if I move in to Falkor, he moves back. 

Will just keep working at it. 

Missy, that is a beautiful picture of you and Cody. That is the end result that I am aiming for. Because I'm tall, (and, er, uh, "endowed") though, I find it hard to see when the dog really is close to me when playing - I end up not seeing where they are and end up stepping on their feet - sorta defeats the purpose that I am trying to achieve. 

Chris, so you don't work on just getting the dog comfortable being looking up at you from very close? You just use drive and reward to get the dogs to come in very close to you? 

I've always been taught to train a sit by getting the dog to rock backwards - but now I see how that will affect the front position negatively. How do you teach the "tuck your feet in underneath you but don't move your front feet" sit? 

Anyone else want to share how they work on getting their dog comfortable with the very close front?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not sure if Kenya counts, but I stopped rewarding for a good front sit (as in, plenty good enough for rally and other obedience, but not super tight like what looks cool) and started only rewarding for a front sit when she was placing her front feet on my toes. Maybe that's bad, but now she gets in pretty tight and doesn't necessarily have to stand on my feet to know she's in position, so I now reward these front sits. I've also done a lot of work with her finding fuss and finding front just pivoting in and out (not necessarily running in from a recall, but being able to work very close to me both on the side and in front).

With Kenya I made the mistake of having a treat in my hand (to the side) or a treat bag on my side and her front sits used to be really crooked. With Nikon when I do recalls, I hold the treat in my crotch or between my knees to encourage coming in straight and ALL the way in to get the treat. Like you though we do recalls and sits separate right now. He also tends to sit by moving backward.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Something I did that seemed to work well for me was to lure my dog in with food, maybe taking one or 2 steps backwards, and then when he was engaged hold the food tight in around my belt buckle and bend at the waist...sort of creating a seven shape with my body. I would let him chew at my hand for the food, and ask him to sit. He would be leaning in towards my body for the food, and when he would sit I would start to stand up straight and start to open my hand with the food reward. When I was fully standing he would be in nice and close and sitting and that's when I would let go of the food.

Eventually, he learned to sort of target the top of my pants/belly. So now if he comes in too far away and I want him closer I'll say "Hier" and bend slightly at the waist or give him a target with my hand and he comes right in.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Whats the Judge looking for in a "Front" I realize straight and prompt but is there a distance? I really don't my dog that up close and personal especially if she misjudges the distance which has happened on occasion


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> Chris, so you don't work on just getting the dog comfortable being looking up at you from very close? You just use drive and reward to get the dogs to come in very close to you?


Oh sure I do. That's earlier in training. As part of focus training the dog's already been doing lots of sitting in front and in basic and giving focus, so is already comfortable with that before I start formalizing the front recall command. Which I start with just a couple steps backward and using a food lure in my hand.



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> I've always been taught to train a sit by getting the dog to rock backwards - but now I see how that will affect the front position negatively. How do you teach the "tuck your feet in underneath you but don't move your front feet" sit?


Same here. I just learned the butt tuck sit in the past few years and sure wish I'd known it earlier.

To teach, rather than luring the food up and back over the head until the dog rocks back into a sit, hold it up and out in front (so the pup is stretching up with his front and won't move backwards because that would take him farther away from the food) and use hand or foot to gently scoot the butt up into position.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarWhats the Judge looking for in a "Front" I realize straight and prompt but is there a distance? I really don't my dog that up close and personal especially if she misjudges the distance which has happened on occasion


Good question. There is no distance rule in terms of inches or anything like that. It's just supposed to be "close" and different judges interpret that differently so it's one of those that varies from judge to judge. Some want the dog to be essentially laying chin on the handler's belly, others permit a couple inches. Some will heavily penalize a dog touching the handler *at all* while others will allow the dog to touch and only penalize if the dog touches hard enough to constitute a bump. Safest in terms of pleasing the most judges is probably as close as the dog can get without actually touching.

Edit to add: and the dog should show the same front position on the recalls as on the retrieves. I've seen judges penalize retrieves and comment in their critique that they did so because the dog showed inconsistent behavior and sat too far away on the retrieve compared to where he sat on his recall.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar I really don't my dog that up close and personal especially if she misjudges the distance which has happened on occasion


I know what you mean. Doesn't feel too great when they come running and slam into you at darn near full speed! (And I imagine it feels even worse to a guy.







)


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar I really don't my dog that up close and personal especially if she misjudges the distance which has happened on occasion
> ...


Man do I know that to well! Near the end of Cody's schH "career", he would get so excited on the come and would sometimes slam into me almost knocking me over, lol.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> ...


The handler shouldn't have to take the "bravery" section of the trial as well


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

All the trials, local and up that we hve seen and participated, where the dog bumped the handler and moved, points were deducted. When the dog touched and did not move (very rare), points should not be taken.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Sorry for the bump on this older topic but it touches on something Im confused on as Im a newbie.

Do you all use hier(or whatever word you use) as the front command and also as your recall command?

Ive been giving hier as my pup's recall but want to start also working on him fronting when he comes to me on a recall and then also teaching focus when in front so should I use heir as the command for all these behaviors?

Thanks, I hope my question makes sense


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm a newbie too but right now I use two commands. For me "hier" means "come here and sit RIGHT in front of me", so the recall is almost incidental, it just has to happen in order for the dog to get into "hier" position. For just recalling my dog back to me I say "come" ("come" doesn't need a front sit, it just means the dog needs to come in close and let me grab his collar). Right now I do silly stuff like walking around backwards with treats in my crotch, to get him used to being straight in the front and staying in close. Later on I will start calling that "hier" and backchaining the recall. Not sure if this is how SchH competitors do it, but this is the way I see it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I do not. I use hier for SchH recall with the close front finish. "Ven aqui" (come here) for informal recall who usually ends with the dog snuggling against my legs and a sharp whistle that means something like "Report, you don't need to come, but I want you to stay closer"


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ok, got it! Thanks for the quick responses. I will move forward with hier as my strict front formal recall as Ive already been building the recall aspect of the command and should easily be able to associate front/focus with the same command with lots of rewarding...he is only 5 months so I think I can add the front aspect to the command easily.

Ive noticed Ive used "come on" as a general get near me or come with me type of command.

And foos is what Im using for getting him in basic position.

Train the dog...and more important I need to keep training the trainer


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We also use 2 commands. Heir is the formal recall with front sit, Come is get over here near me, but nothing formal and no front sit required.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I've started pups by sitting in a straight back chair..I sit on the very edge of the chair, sitting up nice and straight with my legs apart enough the dog can come up between my legs. I lure the pup with food up in front to get them nice and close. I then feed food having the dog coming in nice and tight. I think sometimes dogs have space issues, sometimes feel uncomfortable getting that close, this I've found lays a nice foundation, gets them comfortable. So basically then when the dog is comfortable doing that, you can then go from sitting to standing because you've taught the dog the front. Then I'll work the "heir" command, then add the "front" command to get the nice straight fronts.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

another thing is that there are some dogs that will naturally do the very close front.

Watch people on the field. Actually see the ones that have a consistent close front and ask them.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I have a full speed bumper, a painfull one. In short distances her front is near to what I want, but long distances she 8 to 10 times thinks this is muzzle training (she does not muzzle, is only a comparation) and bumps me.

What can I do? Is this one of those things that will go away with maturity or a bad habit I'm reingorcing every time she does long recalls?


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quoteo you all use hier(or whatever word you use) as the front command and also as your recall command?


I say "hier" for formal obedience and "come" for casual obedience, ie just wanting them to come "check in" with me.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks again all. This weekend I worked with my pup on a short and more formal hier...I would take 2 steps back, say hier, and then click and treat when he came up to me and sat with eye contact. Ill continue to use hier as the formal recall command from distance and slowly merge the behaviors into one.


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