# How to fix problematic OUT without harsh connections



## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

My dog doesn't out properly when in high drive. He outs quite nicely in lower drive, like when I'm tugging with him or playing with ball. But when we do some workouts with a helper, he gets so excited that he doesn't out. I've been told to use harsh corrections, but I believe he would bite me for doing that. The problem is that I've never really used any harsh corrections and starting that now with a 10 months old would be a major change in the "rules".

So I've been thinking that is it possible to teach out with toy exchange or similar game so that it really transfers to high-drive situations like IPO manwork? Is that even possible?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I know some people have had varying degrees of success with presenting another sleeve to the dog. If you don't want to issue the harsh correction then don't. He's your dog. Not the helpers, the TDs or the other members. YOU have to live with him, not them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

If you have access to a second helper, have the first helper remain still and dull while your dog is on the sleeve and you are ready to out your dog. I don't know if you use a whip, but if you do, have the second helper come out on the field in the dog's field of vision and start cracking the whip and making prey movements with the sleeve. He can move closer toward your dog if he still doesn't out. The goal is for your dog to see the second helper as more interesting due to him stimulating his prey drive while the first helper is essentially flat and just standing there. The first helper can also clip a leash to the sleeve and take his arm out and back up, but still keep tension on the sleeve. If your dog does out the reward is the bite on the second helper. If that works, I would have the second helper slip the sleeve right after the dog targets.
If that doesn't work, you can just wait the dog out, while the helper is passive. This could take several minutes and you would have to give him a reward of rebiting the helper. Another option is to flank your dog to out him. It doesn't have to be harsh, but quick and enough to surprise/shock him off the bite. Again, he should be rewarded for outing. If you are worried about getting bit, wear leather gloves. Or you could choke your dog off the bite by grabbing his collar and lifting his front feet off the ground and waiting for him to out while giving the command. You are not really choking the dog. Again reward him. If you dog really enjoys the fight, getting to out for a tug can be difficult.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Toy exchange I don't care for... to me you're not teaching the dog that he must out when you command it. I like to fight hard with the dogs, then go neutral and give it a second to process, command "out", and if they don't I just "nah nah nah... " and I'm pretty boring until you do out, then I explode back into a big fight.. rinse and repeat. For every out where I take the dog away from the helper or sleeve, or end the game, there are 3 outs where they get it back proportional to how fast the out was... i.e., at stupid fast & clean out gets an immediate regrip and big fun party fight... a chewy slow out, means I stand there for a few seconds and then regrip. 

I do not have out problems with my dogs so I'm doing something right.

Also, don't be scared of your dog biting you. If you feel he might, then at some point he probably will, and regardless of the circumstances you need to be prepared to deal with that. If I get bit (not from a miss target, but a bite truly intended for me when I am handling the dog) I "bite back" harder.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Yeah, we use whip. I guess second helper would be logical second "toy" for high-drive situations .

****, this dog is smart. I just tried outting with two identical tugs, but it won't help. The second one must be better! So with helpers, the second helper needs to be bigger...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Timing and correct use of praise is important also. If he does out and focus on the second helper, the first helper gets out of the picture and you praise with "good out/aus" and pat your dog up and then, if he is doing off leash sends, I'd send him to the second helper for a bite. If no sends, the second helper has to time offering the sleeve so that the dog doesn't have to wait too long and sees the bite as a reward.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jarkko said:


> My dog doesn't out properly when in high drive. He outs quite nicely in lower drive, like when I'm tugging with him or playing with ball. But when we do some workouts with a helper, he gets so excited that he doesn't out. I've been told to use harsh corrections, but I believe he would bite me for doing that. The problem is that I've never really used any harsh corrections and starting that now with a 10 months old would be a major change in the "rules".
> 
> So I've been thinking that is it possible to teach out with toy exchange or similar game so that it really transfers to high-drive situations like IPO manwork? Is that even possible?


When a dog is in a high state of drive, a correction is hardly felt anyway, so it needs to be firm to get thru to the brain. 
Has your dog redirected back to you before?
If my dog won't out, the helper will hold a tab on the prong collar(attached under the chin) and do the correcting after the command to out. 
When the correction to out is a pull forward, not a check back by the handler it usually is very effective(the handler has line pressure holding the dog back on harness or flat collar) Dog learns fast that out means out. And outing is rewarded with another bite. Usually only one or two sessions will make it clear to the dog that out means out, even if the helper is still moving or can't lock up because the dog is still trying to control him.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> Toy exchange I don't care for... to me you're not teaching the dog that he must out when you command it. I like to fight hard with the dogs, then go neutral and give it a second to process, command "out", and if they don't I just "nah nah nah... "


So how exactly does it work when the dog just bites and stares back when you command out? You say nah nah nah and do nothing? And after some time the dog get bored and outs? What happens after that?



> Also, don't be scared of your dog biting you. If you feel he might, then at some point he probably will, and regardless of the circumstances you need to be prepared to deal with that. If I get bit (not from a miss target, but a bite truly intended for me when I am handling the dog) I "bite back" harder.


Yeah I guess I should be prepared for that in this sport. Accidental bites I get often, but so far never intentional. Or so I think .


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I know that having the helper correct the dog to out is popular in some circles, but I don't ever want the helper outing my dog. I think it sends the wrong message that the helper is dominating the dog. It can make for a nice looking performance, but doesn't make sense in terms of how the dog sees the helper.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I know what hunter is trying to say and I do the same. Teach proper out with a toy first. Make it boring and stiff. No self satisfaction from pulling on a dead tug. Say out, once. Wait him out. at first you can reward any out regardless of time by giving the release command and tugging hard again. Then repeat. Eventually you want to only reward fast outs. Fast outs = fast release. Slow out = long wait before another release (but no obedience, just sit there and wait a while. If you go to obedience on a slow out you will get even slower outs). I usually don't do exchanges because there is no reward for outing, the new toy becomes the cue to out. I personally don't like that (just my opinion).

Sounds like you have outing problems in general, and might be moving too fast.

Work on out with a tug so the dog is not too overloaded and can think. then build it up in protection once it's clear in his head that out means a fast out. You can work on other things for now (H&B, etc) and let the dog carry in protection. When you are ready to work on outing, you can spend every protection day working on just the out, then put it all together. The helper can reward a fast out like hunter said, but also at that point if the dog is clear I have no qualms about letting the dog know that not outing or outing slow is unacceptable. 

And on another note, if you are afraid of your dog you might consider a sport where he does not get so high in drive. You need to command respect from your dog, and he will feel it if you are afraid of him, it travels right down the leash. 

Good luck!


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> When a dog is in a high state of drive, a correction is hardly felt anyway, so it needs to be firm to get thru to the brain.
> Has your dog redirected back to you before?
> If my dog won't out, the helper will hold a tab on the prong collar(attached under the chin) and do the correcting after the command to out.
> When the correction to out is a pull forward, not a check back by the handler it usually is very effective(the handler has line pressure holding the dog back on harness or flat collar) Dog learns fast that out means out. And outing is rewarded with another bite. Usually only one or two sessions will make it clear to the dog that out means out, even if the helper is still moving or can't lock up because the dog is still trying to control him.


I've seen it done, I'm not a big fan of helper corrections. I want any sort of aggression or attack from the helper to be met with equal aggression from the dog rather than put him in OB mode. Just my opinion, we do something similar except we have a second handler holding the line behind the helper this way it is not the helper that is doing the correcting. Gotta watch out when giving that correction though, since the line usually runs between the helper's legs!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think a dog in a high state of drive even knows the helper is the one that corrected the dog, it is the line pressure forward that works. If the handler is good, they could do the same thing, but many aren't able to hold the dog back and do the correcting forward. I think a dog should be able to handle such a correction if it is doing the sport. 
And it isn't like you do it every time you train, it is a learning session, usually only takes one or two for the dog to learn what out means.
For young dogs, they should be outing the sleeve after the drive transition, not on a helper anyway. I'd rather teach out that way. But, some dogs try to push the helper and won't out when on the helper...so this is an effective way for me and my dog anyway.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think a dog in a high state of drive even knows the helper is the one that corrected the dog, it is the line pressure forward that works. If the handler is good, they could do the same thing, but many aren't able to hold the dog back and do the correcting to out. I think a dog should be able to handle such a correction if it is doing the sport.
> And it isn't like you do it every time you train, it is a learning session, usually only takes one or two for the dog to learn what out means.


I totally hear you Jane, everyone has their methods and preferences. I didn't mean to deride your training methods, just offered my view on them. It's all just tools in a toolkit, you try a wrench and see if it works, then you try a hammer, then a drill. Eventually you start to know which situation calls for a wrench and which for a hammer if you know what I mean


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't like the trade off either. To me it's not really teaching an out. For me and "out" is another emergency command. So just like a down, when I say it, you do it! I don't give many corrections, but when I do it's hard and usually on those two commands. 

I like teaching the out on my puppies at around 3 months. I introduce using the "Ivan" method. Then I will add in an ear pinch or two to get the point across that "out" means "out". I find it's much easier to do with a 25 pound puppy than a 80 pound adult. You're now dealing with an adult, so things change. Depending on the dog I might "flank" it. So, helper locks up, handler says "out" dog doesn't out so helper becomes active again to keep the dog on, handler walks up praising the dog and petting the dog, help locks up handler push's on the dogs collar (in case of re-direct) and handler flanks dog (make it count), dog outs and get immediately rewarded by helper. If you do this method, then you also need to move in and out and touch your dog on the bite a lot with out flanking so the dog doesn't think every time handler is near the dog is getting flanked. This is just one method that has worked well for me. 

I also don't like "helper" corrections. If it's a strong dog that usually leads to a bigger fight and the helper getting bit for real. So it really depends on the dog. Unless, it's what Jane was talking about. Where the helper grabs the collar/leash and pulls the dog into the sleeve. That taps into the dogs opposition reflex and makes the dog want to spit it out. I hope all this makes sense. I haven't had my coffee yet.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I know what hunter is trying to say and I do the same. Teach proper out with a toy first. Make it boring and stiff. No self satisfaction from pulling on a dead tug. Say out, once. Wait him out. at first you can reward any out regardless of time by giving the release command and tugging hard again. Then repeat. Eventually you want to only reward fast outs. Fast outs = fast release. Slow out = long wait before another release (but no obedience, just sit there and wait a while. If you go to obedience on a slow out you will get even slower outs). I usually don't do exchanges because there is no reward for outing, the new toy becomes the cue to out. I personally don't like that (just my opinion).


You guys rock! I just realized that it doesn't have to be lighting fast in the beginning. So I went on and tried it out just a couple of minutes ago. I tugged hard and froze, commanded "out". He did out, after little whining. It was slow, maybe 3-5 seconds, but he did out every time, about 5-6 times! I rewarded all these outs with new game.

So now I just need to get it faster. I also had another concern: I don't have a way to make it as exciting as with helper. But in fact, I have a little helper down here at my property: my hunting dog in his kennel. Every time I approach his premises, he just flips out, raging and jumping to get out to hunt. I found out just a couple of days ago that if I do exercises near the hunting dog, my gsd puppy grips real hard, because the excitement of the older dog is somehow like a virus, it transfers directly to puppy. So I can abuse my little helper to simulate real helper activity . But this is only stage #2, I start with easy tugging with me only.



> Sounds like you have outing problems in general, and might be moving too fast.
> 
> Work on out with a tug so the dog is not too overloaded and can think. then build it up in protection once it's clear in his head that out means a fast out. You can work on other things for now (H&B, etc) and let the dog carry in protection. When you are ready to work on outing, you can spend every protection day working on just the out, then put it all together. The helper can reward a fast out like hunter said, but also at that point if the dog is clear I have no qualms about letting the dog know that not outing or outing slow is unacceptable.
> 
> ...


It certainly is true, I was demanding too much from my dog. Let me also make one point clear: I'm not really afraid of bite, but in my club they don't really like dogs that bite the handler... Well and of course for me it signals that something is not right, so I really don't want that to happen. This is also the reason why I shy a bit of this flanking (if I got it right, basically, slapping in the face?). My dog is really kind of a dog that might bite back. I didn't know that, but people seeing our workouts told me so.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Flanking is grabbing a handful of skin in the upper thigh/loin area and pulling. It usually startles the dog the first time and he lets go and turns his head to see what is going on. You quickly remove your hand and the helper quickly gets him focused back on him. I would never slap a dog in his face.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Flanking is grabbing a handful of skin in the upper thigh/loin area and pulling. It usually startles the dog the first time and he lets go and turns his head to see what is going on. You quickly remove your hand and the helper quickly gets him focused back on him. I would never slap a dog in his face.


Ah yes, of course. I've seen some people doing that, exactly when the dog doesn't out. I've also seen slapping, that's why I confused... Agreed, flanking is completely different. That's something I could use later when it's 100% sure my dog understands out. But slapping... no no.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jarkko said:


> Ah yes, of course. I've seen some people doing that, exactly when the dog doesn't out. I've also seen slapping, that's why I confused... Agreed, flanking is completely different. That's something I could use later when it's 100% sure my dog understands out. But slapping... no no.




My response, was under the impression that your dog knows out . When teaching a behavior, I would go with more positive methods mentioned. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think a dog in a high state of drive even knows the helper is the one that corrected the dog......


Just to pick on this one sentence... Be careful as I have seen dogs that most certainly do know it's the helper correcting them. They get smart & as soon as they feel or see the helper move his/her hand(to pull the line) they spit the sleeve.
This is not what you want either, as it's not going to translate into getting correct outs in a trial.

I'm not saying it won't/can't work with some dogs, but I don't like the method. It leaves the door open to create too much conflict between the dog, helper, & handler, jmo


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## kt484 (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't know if you call this a harsh correction but this has fix the biggest Mali problems.
ITs a pull off line
Less conflict 
It cuts the air 
No prong 
No metal collar 
Very simple 
Helper 
Do on harness plus the collar Gappay Pull Off Line
He don't out the helper pulls his way while you pull the other 
Cuts air he spits out quick.
No conflict not harsh at all


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> When a dog is in a high state of drive, a correction is hardly felt anyway, so it needs to be firm to get thru to the brain.
> Has your dog redirected back to you before?
> If my dog won't out, the helper will hold a tab on the prong collar(attached under the chin) and do the correcting after the command to out.
> When the correction to out is a pull forward, not a check back by the handler it usually is very effective(the handler has line pressure holding the dog back on harness or flat collar) Dog learns fast that out means out. And outing is rewarded with another bite. Usually only one or two sessions will make it clear to the dog that out means out, even if the helper is still moving or can't lock up because the dog is still trying to control him.


Don't like this method, really like the approach where you switch the drives then command (very similar to what Hunter described). Both work, one doesn't typically backfire in trials.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Be careful with Flanking. The first time this was done with my dog she redirected and bit. For out, we teach on a back tie. When the dog is on the sleeve, I go behind the helper and correct her into the sleeve. This worked pretty quickly. I had problems getting a decent correction from the side or behind my dog. Good luck, C


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The out problems I've seen lately among my peers and even a few instances myself were not really about the out. The dog is not outing because of some other conflict or being out of whack in some other respect. Conflict with the handler, way too much work in avoidance and under pressure, the bitework is not working the drives correctly, etc. Normally just trying to get outs means the handler is always stuck trying to get outs (either letting the helper correct, using his own corrections, etc), but when the underlying problem is properly addressed, the outing problem goes away. I've never had an outing problem with my dog so the very few times he has been slow to out I knew something else was up, in his case some conflict between him and myself that needed to be addressed. This sort of built up and came to a head during protection when commanding the out. Instead of thinking of it in terms of "how do I make him out?" I think of it in terms of "why is my dog outing slow/dirty/etc?"

I have let my helper correct one of my dogs but this was when he was young and just learning the out. He hadn't heard the word before and was just learning what it meant. After that one (maybe two?) sessions he understood it and was clean to out after that, despite being a more high string, low threshold kind of dog. Outs were always pretty clear to him because he was a very "happy" kind of dog, motivated by pretty much anything and loved to train so there wasn't a lot of conflict or pressure he had to deal with when working with me.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think Lies makes a good point with her above comment..


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Liesje said:


> The out problems I've seen lately among my peers and even a few instances myself were not really about the out. The dog is not outing because of some other conflict or being out of whack in some other respect. Conflict with the handler, way too much work in avoidance and under pressure, the bitework is not working the drives correctly, etc. Normally just trying to get outs means the handler is always stuck trying to get outs (either letting the helper correct, using his own corrections, etc), but when the underlying problem is properly addressed, the outing problem goes away. I've never had an outing problem with my dog so the very few times he has been slow to out I knew something else was up, in his case some conflict between him and myself that needed to be addressed. This sort of built up and came to a head during protection when commanding the out. Instead of thinking of it in terms of "how do I make him out?" I think of it in terms of "why is my dog outing slow/dirty/etc?"


I think you might be right. Can you give me some practical examples of underlying problems and how did you solve those?

I've been working on outting for now several weeks now. I even bought Michael Ellis DVD on playing tug and outting. Everything makes perfectly sense in theory, but in practice there's no progress at all! Well, there is some kind of progress, but not the progress I want. Let me clarify. When I'm playing tug, he outs quite nicely. Not perfect yet, but I think we can get there. But playing tug is one thing and working with helper is another thing. Couple of days ago, I tried this with myself: I put the dog in the tree and did the helper work myself. Just teasing with a tug, no whips etc. When he bit... Boy he wasn't giving it up! Well, eventually he outted, with lots of moan and groan.

So I have this theory. He doesn't out with helper because

1) That's the situation when REALLY REALLY wants the object. In lower drive, he doesn't really want it, so he gives it up easily.

2) He doesn't trust ME in that situation. I know I have made some mistakes that might have caused this.

The reality can be any combination of these two. Now the problem with 1) is that how can I transfer nice outting in low-drive to high-drive situation? How does it work? Does the dog somehow magically, after N repeats just do it? So far it hasn't worked. Problem with 2) I guess can be handled by not making any mistakes anymore. Maybe he learns to trust me eventually.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Renofan2 said:


> Be careful with Flanking. The first time this was done with my dog she redirected and bit. For out, we teach on a back tie. When the dog is on the sleeve, I go behind the helper and correct her into the sleeve. This worked pretty quickly. I had problems getting a decent correction from the side or behind my dog. Good luck, C


Can you please elaborate? I didn't quite understand how did you correct the dog by going behind the helper and doing... what?

About redirection... I've had my share of that for sure. Two weeks ago my hunting dog bit me really hard because his leg was stuck in the cage. He was hurt really badly... When I went on to release him, BANG! Now I know how it feels to get dog bite WITHOUT the sleeve . But it is now much better and the dog is fine, he was able to hunt in just a few days. I still have some holes in my hand, just to remind me to make the life of my dogs safe .


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

Liesje makes a good point. I believe my recent problems with Brenna not outing was because I was doing forced retrieves with her. 

Jarkko: While Brenna is on a back tie attached to her fursaver or harness, I have a long line attached to her prong. While she is on the sleeve, I stand behind the helper and correct her into the sleeve. This way I can use a subtle correction- pulling her into the grip saying out and she outs. Her outs were fixed with two sessions of doing this.

C


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jarkko said:


> I think you might be right. Can you give me some practical examples of underlying problems and how did you solve those?
> 
> *I've been working on outting for now several weeks now.* I even bought Michael Ellis DVD on playing tug and outting. Everything makes perfectly sense in theory, but in practice* there's no progress at all!* Well, there is some kind of progress, but not the progress I want. Let me clarify. When I'm playing tug, he outs quite nicely. Not perfect yet, but I think we can get there. But playing tug is one thing and working with helper is another thing. Couple of days ago, I tried this with myself: I put the dog in the tree and did the helper work myself. Just teasing with a tug, no whips etc. When he bit... Boy he wasn't giving it up! Well, eventually he outted, with lots of moan and groan.
> 
> ...


You should get with a good helper and not keep wasting time. A session or two with the dog clearly understanding should have the dog outing without conflict. 


> While Brenna is on a back tie attached to her fursaver or harness, I have a long line attached to her prong. While she is on the sleeve, I stand behind the helper and correct her into the sleeve. This way I can use a subtle correction- pulling her into the grip saying out and she outs. Her outs were fixed with two sessions of doing this.


This is how I do it as well(or the helper will hold the line) One or two sessions is all it takes to be clear to the dog.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> You should get with a good helper and not keep wasting time. A session or two with the dog clearly understanding should have the dog outing without conflict.
> 
> This is how I do it as well(or the helper will hold the line) One or two sessions is all it takes to be clear to the dog.


Well, let's see about that. We decided anyways to wait for a while with the protection work. He has zero defence, 100% prey drive, so he needs to mature still. His outs are good for normal obedience, and that's good because those also used to be slow and unstable.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Just wanted to share my status after a good 6 months break from bitework. First the good news: obedience is great, we are progressing very nicely. Outs are fast and precise, even on very high (prey) drive with tugs and balls.

But then the bad news... We tried with a helper and outing problem is now even worse. The dog is now quite aggressive (helpers say he's a very promising dog for the sport) and there NO FREAKING WAY he's going to out cleanly. It's like two different worlds: the obedience world, where everything is clean and nice, and then the bitework world, where the dog turns into beast. Which is good, I suppose for biting, but not very good for obedience in that state of mind.

He's now 18 months, and flanking doesn't work anymore. That's basically as far as I can go, so I think it's the end of the game. Everything else is great, I just cannot control the dog in extreme drive, simple as that. I'm thinking to give up. I feel like a whimp, which I most likely am, and the dog knows it.

So... This is the lesson: teach the out before it's too late.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Staying on the sleeve is a safe spot for the dog, the bite is a place to place the stress. 
Have you tried having the helper slip the sleeve, you cradle the dog for the transition(dog should learn to hold calmly)
Your dog is still very young, I would work on other things and not worry about the out for now....let your dog mature some.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What is his obedience training like? I ask because I have a few times seen dogs that have amazing looking obedience, as far as the final product. Very precise, flashy, high level for this sport, but seeing what it took to achieve that helped me understand why these dogs tended to fall apart in protection (refuse to out, screaming on the sleeve, sometimes out of control). Your dog is very young. Maybe he is carrying over some pressure and conflict from other phases into protection, like Jane says the sleeve is a safe spot. I could be wrong but just something to think about.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Liesje said:


> What is his obedience training like?


It's pretty basic stuff, purely prey-based. Usually I have the toy in my arm pit. Nowadays we are in process of getting rid of the toy (having it in pocket, releasing the dog a bit later etc). I don't reward that much with the dog during the obedience training, because he's so high drive type, so we play mostly after the session.

I was also thinking that maybe I should just give him more time.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Have you tried having the helper slip the sleeve, you cradle the dog for the transition(dog should learn to hold calmly)


Actually, the biggest problem is in exactly there, when he gets the sleeve for transition - he goes totally nuts. Tries to kill the sleeve and jumps all over the field like lunatic. And when the helper says "no grab him and make him out so we can continue", it just doesn't work.

My mistake here was that we have never actually done the "piece" stage after bite (sorry, I don't know how to say this better, I'm not native speaker). So I guess I have to start from zero again... He's pretty wild, as young boys usually are .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Tried the E Collar yet?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jarkko said:


> Actually, the biggest problem is in exactly there, when he gets the sleeve for transition - he goes totally nuts. Tries to kill the sleeve and jumps all over the field like lunatic. And when the helper says "no grab him and make him out so we can continue", it just doesn't work.
> 
> My mistake here was that we have never actually done the "piece" stage after bite (sorry, I don't know how to say this better, I'm not native speaker). So I guess I have to start from zero again... He's pretty wild, as young boys usually are .


The dog should be allowed to carry the sleeve for a bit/when the dog is running it won't be so inclined to thrash and kill the sleeve, you are encouraging the dog to hold and carry it firmly.
After a couple circles, you should bring him into you with the line and cradle the sleeve under his chin while gently stroking his body so he can transition his drive state. 
I wouldn't worry about the out until you can get him to calmly hold the sleeve. When he is calmly holding let him possess it for as long as he is holding firmly. Once he starts chewing, lift him up by his collar or harness and he'll eventually spit it out. Kick it away from him...or take him away, then continue the game. Ask your helper why outing him right away is so important.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Do you have any video of what's going on so we can get a better visual?


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> T
> I wouldn't worry about the out until you can get him to calmly hold the sleeve. When he is calmly holding let him possess it for as long as he is holding firmly. Once he starts chewing, lift him up by his collar or harness and he'll eventually spit it out. Kick it away from him...or take him away, then continue the game. Ask your helper why outing him right away is so important.


This is sound advice, I've been thinking exactly the same. Maybe he's just busy 

And about e-collar... Illegal here.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Jarko:
I have had a similar problem with my male in SCH training. He first learned to out at home with me using it after he was given a Fass command to bite as a pup... picked it up really quickly. When we started bite work in earnest he learned the aus command in drive and when he didn't we hung him by his harness, no collar corrections of any type. Again he picked it up quickly and did the out well. As he learned each stage of fodon (sp?) he would be a little dirty but correct himself when he was commanded to. That all worked well until I added a 2nd trainer and started to do search and bite in a poorly lit shipping container at nite. The transition from what he was comfortable with to new surroundings and work seemed to have an effect on his willingness to release when he was told to. After a few sessions with both trainers we all decided to go back to the basics. Both trainers thought that some of it was nerves and he had become edgy... (He was also working in defense instead of prey at time.) We also integrated the Ecollar into the routines and I am happy to say that do over was pretty much successful. His obedience, Fussing and bite work has improved greatly..
IMHO, dogs will respond with a little extra work by going back to the basics helping them to relearn. 
Good luck, remember to be patient and some dogs need to restart. I learned (some of which was due my own impatience) that you can easily re-pattern their working behavior if you are willing to spend the time. 
Good Luck
Phil


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We start as a puppy.....


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Jarkko said:


> My dog doesn't out properly when in high drive. He outs quite nicely in lower drive, like when I'm tugging with him or playing with ball. But when we do some workouts with a helper, he gets so excited that he doesn't out. I've been told to use harsh corrections, but I believe he would bite me for doing that. The problem is that I've never really used any harsh corrections and starting that now with a 10 months old would be a major change in the "rules".
> 
> So I've been thinking that is it possible to teach out with toy exchange or similar game so that it really transfers to high-drive situations like IPO manwork? Is that even possible?


Tell helper to switch him to prey before outing then reward with another bite (after he outs). Switching to prey is as simple as moving sleeve side to side 2-3 times before locking up for the out command. No harsh corrections necessary.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Ask your helper why outing him right away is so important.


I asked, he said it's important that the dog doesn't lose all his drive. Maybe there's some point there, but for me it looks like this dog doesn't lose it that easily, so it shouldn't be problem to cool him down a bit. Today we'll find out!


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

How is his platz? If he knows that, then maybe what we are doing would work. Your dog sounds alot like my male. Have the helper slip the sleeve, run him in a circle or two then put your hand under his chin, and gently guide him into a sit. If he is thrashing see if you can get him to sit calmly for a second or two then reward by running in another circle. When he is holding the sleeve calmly for a minute then put your foot on your long line (which is attached to the prong) and give the platz command, at the same time pull up on your line to give pressure and say out. If he outs release the leash pressure and say platz again - correct if he tries to regrip the sleeve or gets up from platz. Once he does this, keep foot on the leash and touch the sleeve and prepare that he will go for it. Correct - repeat outs/ platz. Don't give him enough leash to scoot back away from you, but keep him in position next to you. Say out platz and touch the sleeve. Once you can do that repeat but move the sleeve closer to the helper. Be prepard for him to try and strike at the sleeve but keep repeating the command and pressure when he disobeys the command. Once he has this have the helper put the sleeve back on and send him in for a guard, then bite, helper slips sleeve and repeat. You will work up to that the helper can move and look at him and he must remain in his platz until released. I am using the same method with him outing a ball and tug. Then go back to outing him off the helper and mix these up. Rewarding him with a bite when he excutes what you are asking him to do well. What i am seeing is he is building in his intensity in guarding and striking by having to be obedient and calm after the out. I really like what how this is working for my dog.

If you would like i can video tape a session on Wed night and send it to you so you can see what we are doing and maybe decide if it is worth a try. My dog likes the fight so when we were using too much force and or choking him off he would fight even harder to hold on.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Renofan2 said:


> If you would like i can video tape a session on Wed night and send it to you so you can see what we are doing and maybe decide if it is worth a try. My dog likes the fight so when we were using too much force and or choking him off he would fight even harder to hold on.


Please do send it! 

I'm now trying completely different route with his out, the "self out", as described by Stephen Mackentzie in his book Aggression Control: Teaching the "Out". It seems to be working! First self out took ~9 minutes, so he's even that tough (Mackentzie documented a GS with 25min intial self out in his book, in the internets I read someone took a full 45 minutes!). He's getting faster, at the moment we are in somewhere around 2-3 minutes. Few more sessions and I'm sure he'll get it.

Self out is very simple:

1. Get the dog bite hard
2. Let him bite, praise him as he is biting
3. Don't let him get rest (chewing etc)
4. Don't let him trash the sleeve, just hold nicely
5. Eventually the jaws are so full of lactic acid that he MUST out, it's the law of nature
6. At the precise time of self out, say "out"
7. Praise, PRAISE, WHAT A GOOD BOY!!!
8. Let the jaws get some rest
9. Repeat

The trick for boneheaded dogs like mine is that the complete exhaustion because of lactic acids feels bad, and the dog wants to avoid that, and that will teach him to "out" on command eventually. And all that happens without any struggle between dog and handler. Win-win!

It's very simple but not that easy. Holding my hand under his chin is problematic, since that allows him to rest. OTOH, if I get my hand off the chin, he starts trashing immediately!!  So I'm still learning this, but I'm confident that this works for my dog.

My biggest problem is to convince the helper to understand why I want to do this...


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