# working line temperaments



## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

_i don't know if this is appropriate in this forum, if not please move it to the right forum. thank you._

After much research, lengthy readings and googling, I have decided to get a working line GSD.
What confuses me is the temperament of Czech vs. DDR vs East German working lines.
Most have varying "opinions" of each working lines temperament.
Can i at least get a general description/ stereotype of each temperament so i can make an educated decision on which line is best suited for our family.

thanks.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Not really. There are so many exceptions as to make a rule basically meaningless. Please dont make a decision on a bloodline based on generalizatios made over the internet. Go to your the clubs in your state and neighboring states and meet dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know if there is a correct answer to your question, but I'll tell you the difference I see in my czech vs ddr dogs, altho the one I have now is a blend.

The DDR dogs I've had were all males, so that may make a difference to, I found them to be late maturing, biddable, velcro, easy trainers. I know many disagree with that, but it's what I found in the males I've had. Energy level, I'd say medium, but could go hike all day if you wanted, or lounge on the couch all day no problems..

My female right now is a blend, with the majority of czech. She's got alot of energy, again, probably slower to mature but I'm happy with the outcome as she is almost 4.
Easy trainer, smart as a whip, daring, will gladly try 'anything' thrown in front of her.

The energy factor is HIGH, not alot of prey drive, but loads of 'play' drive., as she has matured, she settles nicely in the house. 

I'm sure others will chime in, but the above have been the dogs I've lived with.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

rshkr said:


> _i don't know if this is appropriate in this forum, if not please move it to the right forum. thank you._
> 
> After much research, lengthy readings and googling, I have decided to get a working line GSD.
> What confuses me is the temperament of Czech vs. DDR vs East German working lines.
> ...


it wont allow me to edit it should've been Czech vs. DDR vs. WEST German


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Emoore and look at dogs while at training. 

IMO (to generalize) on the individual lines, the dogs I see that are WG are more sporty, the Czech dogs more serious and the DDR a bit lower drive(not to say they are low drive, just lower) than the other two. BUT that is just my opinion. You can find all the above in any line.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I will reiterate what some others have already said. GO and watch the dogs. Look at a lot of dogs, and you'll find the kind that you like. Then ask them where they got their dogs from and look to those places to get you one like that. Most people have different definitions and likes and dislikes in dogs and you won't know what you like or dislike till you see it and I can guess you'll have different definitions for things than the person next to you. We all do. Generalizing across a "line" of dogs isn't going to give you much info about the dog you will have in front of you. Fun to read and talk about, but not very usefull when trying to find a dog you want to live with.


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## Siese (Feb 25, 2011)

My Dagger is about 3/4 DDR. Generally, she's stubborn, willful, and energetic. She's 15 months old now, and still really bad about play-biting even now. She's got great drive, and I think she probably would've made a great police or schutzhund dog. She's getting better about not biting, although she still really likes to lightly chew on your hand/arm when you try to pet her, but she's learning not to bite with LOTS of patience on the part of me and my family.

I love my dog, but she's a handful! She's slow maturing--doesn't realize she's 25" tall and 80 lbs yet--and she's kind of a slow learner. However, once she DOES grasp the concept of what I'm trying to teach her, she's 100% at it. Always comes when called, always sits on command, always speaks on command. I take her for a 4 block walk and when we get home she's still running around with her toys!

She's a WORKING dog, and this means--unfortunately for me, sometimes--that she needs a job to do. Alas, I cannot leave her at home alone, because she gets bored and chews up expensive things. I can leave her out at night, though, just not if I'm not there.

I wouldn't recommend them for just anyone, but if you're active, you could probably handle one. Dagger is my first GSD, so I admit I don't know which of these attributes are specific to DDR dogs and which are just GSD traits.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't know if there is a correct answer to your question, but I'll tell you the difference I see in my czech vs ddr dogs, altho the one I have now is a blend.
> 
> *The DDR dogs I've had were all males, so that may make a difference to, I found them to be late maturing, biddable, velcro, easy trainers. I know many disagree with that, but it's what I found in the males I've had. Energy level, I'd say medium, but could go hike all day if you wanted, or lounge on the couch all day no problems..
> *


You described Echo (also DDR) to a T!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yes, very hard to generalize, especially because there are so many DDR and Czech mixes these days. If you post your location there might be people here that can point you to a GSD club or a Schutzhund club in your area where you can go and watch some dogs work. Trust me, when you see IT, you'll know exactly which dog you want. Talk to that person about where they got theirs from and you can get one from there too. I have a half Western/DDR and he's got plenty of energy, can lounge around, but also has a lot of prey drive. Many people on here can tell you what to expect from certain lines within the groupings, but a whole group is very hard to pin point or even pick a dog from.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

A note should be made that almost NO ONE in the US is breeding DDR dogs for anything but looks. Hence, they select easy to manage, pretty dogs for breeding, which in turn creates the same, perpetuating the stereotype. 

My DDR experience has been vastly different, but the selection criteria has also.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Siese said:


> * Dagger is about 3/4 DDR. Generally, she's stubborn, willful, and energetic. She's 15 months old now, and still really bad about play-biting even now.* She's got great drive, and I think she probably would've made a great police or schutzhund dog. She's getting better about not biting, although she still really likes to lightly chew on your hand/arm when you try to pet her, but she's learning not to bite with LOTS of patience on the part of me and my family.
> 
> *I love my dog, but she's a handful! She's slow maturing--doesn't realize she's 25" tall and 80 lbs yet--and she's kind of a slow learner. However, once she DOES grasp the concept of what I'm trying to teach her, she's 100% at it. Always comes when called, always sits on command, always speaks on command. I take her for a 4 block walk and when we get home she's still running around with her toys!*
> 
> ...


You are describing Diabla here, also 3/4 DDR. Though at 4 years old she is safe to be left alone at home and doesn't chew stuff, she is also a mischievous thief and you should be very aware of where and how any food is stored or she will get into it. She still mouths while playing, but that is because I've never really discouraged it, since it doesn't bother me and I have no kids. Diabla has done SchH, but while she has the drive she lacks hardness. She's one of those dogs you could put titles into, but it doesn't make her a breed-able material. She is VERY good at SAR.

She lacks a good off switch and will be ready to play after a whole day of swimming and hiking (though IMO, a 4 block walk wouldn't tire even a basset hound). She LOVES to work and as Dagger she may not be the fastest learner, but once she grasps something, she is 99% reliable.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

It's so amazing how things have changed over time. When I met my husband almost 17 years ago, there were a couple of people in the Schutzhund club (where we met ) who had DDR lines. The 4-5 that were around that I had experience with were very intense dogs. We ended up with a female that has remained one of my favorite dogs of all time. She was tough as nails, super quick to pick something up and very sensible (if that makes sense). 
We had a couple of folks recently who brought dogs to the club who are heavy DDR, not 100% but still. They were more like what others have described here, I still like them, though they seem to run a bit bigger than what I have become accustomed to.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

My young dog is mostly west german working lines. He is very intense and focused on the field and turns "on" very easy. Around the house he is usually very bored. Sometimes I feel bad that he dosen't have a real job to keep his mind occupied during the week.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My boy Kopper, 14 months, is mostly DDR with about 1/8 West German Working and about 1/16 Czech (near as I can figure). 

At 14 months he's a skinny 75lb. I figure he'll mature at around 85. He is mind-bogglingly intelligent, easy to train, and not exactly what I'd call biddable. He has a mind of his own and often thinks of ways to turn a situation to his own advantage. He has very high food and ball drive, two things I hear aren't typical for the DDR dogs. He's aloof and becoming more suspicious of strangers and developing a bit lower aggression threshold than I would like. (Meaning, he's quicker to aggression than I would like him to be.) He isn't overly resistant to correction. He is _very_ mouthy with people's hands and arms. We've recently entered a little destructive phase so he's having to go back into the crate after being left uncrated since he was 5 months old. He gets bored very easily and doesn't settle as well now as he did when he was 4, 5, 6 months old. Definitely a physically affectionate, snuggly velcro dog.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Annette's description is what my experience has been (old ones she mentioned, not the recent ones she met). Very intense, can be serious, extremely clear in the head/sensible, not for everyone. I think the "DDR" moniker at this point is pretty much a joke, as the breedings are done with totally different goals currently. They are largely bred for pets- goodlooking pets, so it only stands to reason that the ones who are being bred frequently produce this type. 

I have had a few breeders approach me for new blood, and when I told the truth about temperament, they thanked me for my honesty and said their buyers "don't want that much dog."  Here I thought the GSD was supposed to be a working dog. :laugh:

I don't remember who said the Basset hound remark about the 4 block walk, but I thought the same thing. 4 blocks isn't even a warm-up. I used to walk my male 7 MILES per night. Not blocks, MILES. Every. Single. Night. Every morning, he went swimming.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> My boy Kopper, 14 months, is mostly DDR with about 1/8 West German Working and about 1/16 Czech (near as I can figure).
> 
> At 14 months he's a skinny 75lb. I figure he'll mature at around 85. He is mind-bogglingly intelligent, easy to train, and not exactly what I'd call biddable. He has a mind of his own and often thinks of ways to turn a situation to his own advantage. He has very high food and ball drive, two things I hear aren't typical for the DDR dogs. He's aloof and becoming more suspicious of strangers and developing a bit lower aggression threshold than I would like. (Meaning, he's quicker to aggression than I would like him to be.) He isn't overly resistant to correction. He is _very_ mouthy with people's hands and arms. We've recently entered a little destructive phase so he's having to go back into the crate after being left uncrated since he was 5 months old. He gets bored very easily and doesn't settle as well now as he did when he was 4, 5, 6 months old. Definitely a physically affectionate, snuggly velcro dog.


He enters what we call his "OCD zone" with his ball, his eGGe, his agility work, etc, and it's hard to snap him out of it. One day I got tired of him fixating on his ball so I put it on top of the fridge. An hour later he was still lying next to the fridge, staring up at where the ball was. So I took it away and locked it in my gun safe. A short while later I couldn't find him so I went looking for him. He was on top of the 4-foot tall gun safe, trying to get in and get his ball out. So far he has not figured out the combination, but he hasn't stopped trying. 

I really wish Christine would come in and talk about the Blackthorn O-litter because they're somewhat closely related to my boy. I'd like to know if he's similar to them.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

I have had a few West German working line dogs, Boris and Bonni (in my signature, you can look). Both dogs are/were the most obedient, and most attentive dogs I've had. They aimed to please me, and they listened very, very well, very easy to train. They would also go non-stop all day if necessary. Boris loved his ball and frisbees, Bonni is a bit obsessed with her ball; she will play all day with her ball. But inside, they are perfectly happy to sack out on their beds or the couch. They are great family dogs, but Boris had to check people out first, and once they passed his approval, he was okay with them. But once a creepy guy came to the door and wouldn't leave, Boris shoved himself between us and growled at the man until he left. Boris was intimidating, but he never did anything, he didn't have to, he just looked intimidating. They also know exactly what is theirs, ie our property, and what isn't, the street, and they just don't go anywhere off the property. 

Boris' stoic nature was also his undoing. He would go, go, go, and never gave any indication when he wasn't feeling well. One day he fell over and couldn't walk. Long story short, he had a very bad infection with Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, a tick infection. It took him months to recover, but a year later he died of hemangiosarcoma shortly before his twelfth birthday. I'm only mentioning this because if he had given some indication that he wasn't feeling well, he would have been treated promptly for the RMSF. But he never did, he hid it until he couldn't anymore. 

So the workingline dogs I've had have been the easiest to train and most obedient. I had one showline dog, and she was a free spirit. She listened when it suited her, but usually it didn't.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I really wish Christine would come in and talk about the Blackthorn O-litter because they're somewhat closely related to my boy. I'd like to know if he's similar to them.


Hmmm. One of the O pups (Blackthorn's Oda - German Shepherd Dog) is a certified therapy dog (who works with her psychologist owner) with her Rally Novice title. One of them is a talented herding dog who is still maturing. Another is a mobility service dog (still in training) who is performing much beyond his age, although he still has a lot to learn. Another lives in a family with 4 kids under the age of 10. They are a very diversely talented group of pups. I'd say pack drive is very high--very into *their* people, very attuned and responsive. Energy level is medium high. Tendency to guard (objects, territory/crates/cars) is high. Prey drive is medium, but "toy drive" (retrieve drive or even the desire to engage with a non-moving toy) is low. Possession is high. Food drive is medium.

The pup I kept back, Oda, was one of the most difficult pups I've raised--she was quite high energy but also very unfocused. In one 20-minute period, she turned on the DVD player and TV, brought me two TV remotes, carried some papers around the house, scratched my glasses lens, moved all the bones and balls from one side of the room to the other, and pulled the pillows off the sofas. She's got intense focus on *living* prey -- my cats, the chickens -- and I have no doubt one day she'll be a cat killer if I ever let her near the cats unwatched. I don't plan to do gathering-style herding with her bc she is *hunting* not herding. She has a natural interest in borders and fencelines, so there might be a different tale if I were teaching tending-style herding.

I've started working her in bitework/schutzhund... we'll see where she gets with that.  She's biting the sleeve, hard, but her drives are just not as "evolved" as many of the German working lines. She has the drive for the moving sleeve and is slowly developing interest in the dead sleeve. We're not working her in defense yet--she's not ready for it yet. (And I don't believe in putting a dog into defense "just to see what happens...") She's excellent with children and puppies, bitchy/snarky with strange dogs, and aloof with strange adults in public.

She's oddly (IMO) obedient. If I'm paying attention and she understands, she will obey me--walking past the free-range chickens off-leash or even past the cats to get outside. If I'm not paying attention and I don't give her a command to follow... she is all for creating havoc and mayhem. 

Her litter has a high utility quotient--they can do *actual* work. But they are not going to be the fastest or the driviest or the hardest or the fiercest--not the dog you're going to pick to win that schutzhund trial or agility trial or obedience HIT (though they should pass). But maybe they'll be the dog that will baby-sit your kid and guard your truck and lick the tears off your face and pull your wheelchair and bring the ewes and their young lambs into the barn at night (well, not Oda, but her sister might!).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bocron and Eisenherz echo my observations about DDR dogs today and 15 years ago. The older DDR dogs were more based on lines going back to Held v Ritterberg, Zorro Lager-Wall, and Barutherland lines. those dogs were much more intense and tough, so to speak, whereas the DDR dogs of today are more steeped in very biddable dogs, not as hard as the older type, certainly geared for great family dogs and lower drive for the work.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Thanks Christine, that's interesting to read.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My boys, Ari and Anik, have quite a bit of DDR blood. They are high drive (in everything), intense, and have plenty of aggression. Not for the faint of heart
Great family dogs, athletic, and good inthe house (mostly).
There are times though, when I wonder if there is not "more dog" at the end of the leash than I can handle. If you try to "force" train, it would take a LOT of force. They require respect, and work better when I can convince them that something is their (brilliant) idea.
But 95% of the time.... they are perfect for me and my family.

My girl Akina, mostly Czech, is also high drives. But much, much easier to handle.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gagsd said:


> My boys, Ari and Anik, have quite a bit of DDR blood. They are high drive (in everything), intense, and have plenty of aggression. Not for the faint of heart
> 
> Great family dogs, athletic, and good inthe house (mostly).
> 
> There are times though, when I wonder if there is not "more dog" at the end of the leash than I can handle..


See, that describes me as well. My boy with a lot of DDR blood has as much drive and is as intense as the herding dogs on the ranch and the Border Collies and Aussies at agility. Our instructor has said several times that he reminds her of a Border Collie in his intensity and drive for the "work" (although we're supposed to call it play). I wish we could get together and see dogs, though; because phrases like "lower drive" and "higher drive" are hard to pin down. One person's high is another's low. I know I wouldn't want anything higher.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I work Ari a lot more than Anik, And I can say he is as intense a dog as any I have met when he is "on." like a bulldozer on steroids. 
Around the house he is a pleasure.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

gagsd said:


> I work Ari a lot more than Anik, And I can say he is as intense a dog as any I have met when he is "on." like a bulldozer on steroids.


HA! My agility coach called Kopper "A Ferrari engine stuck in a bulldozer body." Her exact words, on my honor.


He's a pleasure in the house when he gets to work and play. When we have several days of freezing rain and/or sickness, he kind of becomes an asshat.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Bocron and Eisenherz echo my observations about DDR dogs today and 15 years ago. The older DDR dogs were more based on lines going back to Held v Ritterberg, Zorro Lager-Wall, and Barutherland lines. those dogs were much more intense and tough, so to speak, whereas the DDR dogs of today are more steeped in very biddable dogs, not as hard as the older type, certainly geared for great family dogs and lower drive for the work.


This is about the exact OPPOSITE of Siren. Definitely NOT very biddable, VERY intense. Crazy prey drive especially towards live prey. She is RULED by her nose. I've had scent hounds that were less scent driven. But definitely NOT a SchH prospect. (I wouldn't have gotten a dog bred like this if that is what I was looking for.)
She is 3/4 DDR 1/4 Czech. Don't know if it is "just her", or if this would be expected looking at her pedigree.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Tracy, why do you say "not" for schutzhund?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> Bocron and Eisenherz echo my observations about DDR dogs today and 15 years ago. The older DDR dogs were more based on lines going back to Held v Ritterberg, Zorro Lager-Wall, and Barutherland lines. those dogs were much more intense and tough, so to speak, whereas the DDR dogs of today are more steeped in very biddable dogs, not as hard as the older type, certainly geared for great family dogs and lower drive for the work.


All (except one) of my gsd have gone back to Held, my last male was a Zorro grandson (and I like him in a ped)

Mary's boys are sired by Masi's 'dad', and with Masi, I tend to agree she isn't for the faint of heart . I sometimes wonder and probably am, less of a handler than Masi deserves but I don't think she minds


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Jacoda....so you and Mary's dogs go back to Held and Zorro....I think I paired intense and hard with these lines.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Oh holy crap, I got Zorro three times in 5 generations. . .


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Catu said:


> You are describing Diabla here, 3/4 DDR.


Nothing important, but I wanted to say 1/4 DDR, not 3/4


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

My dog is DDR. Ruled by his nose, yes, not for sport, loads of attitude, aloof, never quits but not flashy, biddable to me. Love him.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

cliff yeppie, The male that was a zorro grandson, was out of an am line show line bitch, do you remember the "Dolmar" am show lines? Quite popular around these parts in the 80's, early 90's she was quite a tough cookie herself and might have been the exception to the rule .. Loved that boy, he was my 'perfect' dog despite the unpopularity of the mix at the time.

Masi I believe goes back to Held thru Reiko maybe? She is actually the most 'intense' dog I've had to date, but a "nice" intense, one that is 'fun' to work with.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes, I remember the Dolmar Am lines....the American lines in the eighties still had breeders that produced very strong working temperament.


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