# Roach Back



## drosado

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this. I am new to pure bred GSD. What is meant by "roach back"?


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## Catu

A back that looks like if the dog has a hump.


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## KZoppa




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## MaggieRoseLee

It's a look that's being bred for in Germany for the showlines..


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## Jessiewessie99

And so tha OP knows, not ALL Showline breeders dogs have "roach backs".


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## MaggieRoseLee

Jessiewessie99 said:


> And so tha OP knows, not ALL Showline breeders dogs have "roach backs".


If you are referring to the video I put up... it has a ton of dogs shown so the OP can see what is being bred over there in the showring...


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## BR870

MaggieRoseLee said:


> It's a look that's being bred for in Germany for the showlines..
> 
> 2010 SV BSZS NKGR part 8 Remo von Fichtenschlag HD - YouTube


What a travesty...


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## Jessiewessie99

MaggieRoseLee said:


> If you are referring to the video I put up... it has a ton of dogs shown so the OP can see what is being bred over there in the showring...


Because that video does not account for all of the showline GSDs out there and breeders. Because not all of them breed for that. It may happen for many yes, but there are quite a few breeders who breed healthy beautiful showlines. I was also letting the OP know that not all are like that.Yes, its seen mostly in WGSL.

I was just letting them know that not all have "roached backs" and shouldn't be painted that way.

There is a good, the bad and ugly in every line.


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## GermanShepherds6800

I have mostly working lines. It is ignorant to say all show lines are banana back and roaches by viewing those videos. Have you ever went and seen these dogs in person Maggie? You would be surprised. I suggest you and others generalizing them in that tone like that do so. I have been with wl gsds over 28 years and I have seen as many bad wl dogs as I have show lines. I do not understand this behavior of attacking the show lines by so many in wl dogs. I do not see the sl people constantly attacking us for sunken top lines, short reach, bad rear assemblies and so on. A good dog is a good dog a bad dog is still a dog and still loved.


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## Jessiewessie99

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I have mostly working lines. It is ignorant to say all show lines are banana back and roaches by viewing those videos. Have you ever went and seen these dogs in person Maggie? You would be surprised. I suggest you and others generalizing them in that tone like that do so. I have been with wl gsds over 28 years and I have seen as many bad wl dogs as I have show lines. I do not understand this behavior of attacking the show lines by so many in wl dogs. I do not see the sl people constantly attacking us for sunken top lines, short reach, bad rear assemblies and so on. A good dog is a good dog a bad dog is still a dog and still loved.


I wouldn't call it attacking, it was more generalization. But its true the generalization needs to stop.I have seen a few people generalize working line GSDs also. But there is no need to turn this into a WL vs. SL debate, as that is not what the OP asked, and we all have seen what those are like. :/

In the end they are ALL GSDs.


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## JPF

MaggieRoseLee said:


> It's a look that's being bred for in Germany for the showlines..
> 
> 2010 SV BSZS NKGR part 8 Remo von Fichtenschlag HD - YouTube


wow, the dogs in that video look deformed


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## JPF

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I wouldn't call it attacking, it was more generalization. But its true the generalization needs to stop.I have seen a few people generalize working line GSDs also. But there is no need to turn this into a WL vs. SL debate, as that is not what the OP asked, and we all have seen what those are like. :/
> 
> In the end they are ALL GSDs.


yes and no...there wouldn't be a generalization for them if it wasn't true for a certain percentage. But I would agree, there are faults in all lines, it just seems that those who breed for show tend to be the worst.


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## CelticGlory

JPF, that is so true and sad. I've seen breeders that have straight backs over here but, than they breed to the dogs that have hump backs and the puppies end up with hump backs as well. These breeders usually have both roach back and straight back GSDs. 

I think what needs to happen is having a thread of breeders who have dogs and are breeding for straight backs; whether they are working lines or show lines, it shouldn't matter. I've read a couple days ago about the different lines and the person wrote about *other lines* and the dog they showed had a straight back and they said these dogs are bred for straight backs; *however*, they never said *what lines* they were. So how can a person make a informed decision if you can't get all of the information? Also, like I complained in my thread, breeders should show all of their stock in stacked photos and in a relaxed position as well. I hate seeing only a front view of the dogs head and then a stacked photo, it doesn't tell me what their back truly looks like.


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## Liesje

Yes there are a lot of people that have WGSL that are not overly roached, broken topline, or have that extremely steep croup. But I think it is also correct to say that is the current trend. This type is evaluated by the Sieger type shows and the roachy, crippled looking dogs are often the ones selected. If they aren't, it's often because those dogs didn't show up and people with a more moderate dog got lucky. I'm not trying to get on a soap box and wag my finger because I have a WGSL and I always will because I personally like them and if I look in the right places I can find what I want. But the fact is the dogs that are getting top wins and all the breedings are mostly the type being called out in this thread.


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## koda girl

We have a dog at the park that has this roach back. I have to tell you it is sad watching her walk, it just doesn't look normal at all. A very beautiful dog, yes, but just doesn't look right.


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## Dylan

The banana/roach back discussion has gone on for years. IMO you can't make a judgement about a specific dog by looking at a posed Urma photo. In Germany dogs are set up to show an exagerated topline for show photos. Not sure why. I've owned a showline dog with a banana back on her Urma that actually had a very nice straight back in person. The video posted here clearly shows many of the dogs at this year's Seiger do have banana backs. I like the German showlines, but I do not like that and I'm not sure why the Germans breed for it. 

BTW you have a troll here. She has many different screen names on other boards and has been banned from most.


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## Deejays_Owner

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I have mostly working lines. It is *ignorant* to say all show lines are banana back and roaches by viewing those videos. Have you ever went and seen these dogs in person Maggie? You would be surprised. I suggest you and others generalizing them in that tone like that do so. I have been with wl gsds over 28 years and I have seen as many bad wl dogs as I have show lines. I do not understand this behavior of attacking the show lines by so many in wl dogs. I do not see the sl people constantly attacking us for sunken top lines, short reach, bad rear assemblies and so on. A good dog is a good dog a bad dog is still a dog and still loved.


*Great Post!!*

The Knowledgable High-Line breeders that were on this board have all but gone away years ago for this reason.


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## MaggieRoseLee

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I have mostly working lines. *It is ignorant to say all show lines are banana back and roaches by viewing those videos. Have you ever went and seen these dogs in person Maggie?* You would be surprised. I suggest you and others generalizing them in that tone like that do so. I have been with wl gsds over 28 years and I have seen as many bad wl dogs as I have show lines. I do not understand this behavior of attacking the show lines by so many in wl dogs. I do not see the sl people constantly attacking us for sunken top lines, short reach, bad rear assemblies and so on. A good dog is a good dog a bad dog is still a dog and still loved.


Well that just made my morning! Thanks for posting! :wild: It's a GREAT example of how people read what they want to read in a post, NOT what I said. 

Really!

All I did was post a recent, 2010, video that my German SHOWLINE friends were sending around of a recent show in Germany! And all I SAID was that if you look at it there are a bunch of dogs, in Germany, at a show, that are the type that are being bred! These are friends that love their dogs and would only own this type of GSD! It was a 'brag' video from them...

People can view the video and make up their own minds of what they are seeing and what the dogs look like over there. :wub:



Jessiewessie99 said:


> I was just letting them know that not all have "roached backs" and shouldn't be painted that way.
> 
> *There is a good, the bad and ugly in every line*.


THAT's is exactly right! And why I didn't point out any particular dog or look but instead had a video with ALL the dogs entered in that particular class so people could SEE for themselves!


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## Emoore

CelticGlory said:


> . I've read a couple days ago about the different lines and the person wrote about *other lines* and the dog they showed had a straight back and they said these dogs are bred for straight backs; *however*, they never said *what lines* they were. So how can a person make a informed decision if you can't get all of the information?


By going and meeting the dogs. If somebody gets up, turns off the computer, and goes to their local GSDCA chapter meeting and a couple of Schutzhund clubs in their area, they will see the NOT all GSL dogs are crippled hunch backs, not all ASLs are nervy hock-walkers, and not all WL dogs are so energetic and drivey they need to be kept in a tiger cage. Just maybe they'll find some dogs whose looks and temperament they love. And maybe they'll figure out how those dogs are related-- they're all descended from Lord, or they're all from a certain breeder, etc. And that's when the magic happens. 

I gotta tell you, I don't really care if a person on the internet says that DDR lines are low drive, or that breeder X produces dogs with "straight' backs, or that Czech dogs are protective. We may have completely different definitions of "low drive," "straight backed," and "protective." I wanna see the _dogs._


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## Josie/Zeus

Here's my almost 6 month old showline.


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## wildo

Emoore said:


> By going and meeting the dogs. If somebody gets up, turns off the computer, and goes to their local GSDCA chapter meeting and a couple of Schutzhund clubs in their area, they will see the NOT all GSL dogs are crippled hunch backs, not all ASLs are nervy hock-walkers, and not all WL dogs are so energetic and drivey they need to be kept in a tiger cage.


+1. I just joined my local GSDCA club and can't believe the doors it has opened up already. There's a local futurity/maturity event coming up, a tracking event coming up, and the club president is great friends with local (nationally renowned) SchH trainers (and has promised to take me to meet them and watch their dogs). I have a lot of opportunity to see all kinds of GSDs from all kinds of different lines. It's been really rewarding so far- and I wish I would have joined 5+ years ago. I'd also recommend joining a club...

That said- I saw a CH ASL GSD trying to do agility at class yesterday and I honestly was quite sad for it. She reluctantly obliged, but it's clear agility is not easy for her given her structure. I give her owner credit though for exercising her and trying. She's (the dog) a good sport!


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## wildo

Josie/Zeus said:


> Here's my almost 6 month old showline.


Is that a picture of Koda (as per your sig)?


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## drosado

Thank you so much for the responses. My 2 appear to have the curved back. I will try to post pics of them this weekend. Thanks again.


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## Josie/Zeus

wildo said:


> Is that a picture of Koda (as per your sig)?


Yes, that's Koda.


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## Emoore

Josie/Zeus said:


> Yes, that's Koda.


I would LOVE to get him and Kopper together for a play/hiking date. We could take a zillion photos.


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## Josie/Zeus

I'm in! Let's plan something, the weather is so nice now.


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## Deejays_Owner

*The term "Roach Back" is when the point of roach is HIGHER than the withers plain and simple.*

This is a true Roach Back, and NO one is breeding for it, as it's a fault!!


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## Liesje

Brian that's how I understand it as well. Not saying I condone the really type-y WGSL but "roach" is not really their problem. To me a roach is when the topline actually curves up over the loin, higher than the wither (which should be the highest point). What I see in many of the WGSL is not really roach but what I think people call the "banana back" which looks like the broken topline and/or the extremely steep croup not helped by the angulation and/or looseness in the rear. It's a combination of things, all of which are faulty, but not necessarily a true roached back.


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## Hillary_Plog

Deejays_Owner said:


> *The term "Roach Back" is when the point of roach is HIGHER than the withers plain and simple.*
> 
> This is a true Roach Back, and NO one is breeding for it, as it's a fault!!


Thank you for correctly defining and articulating this! Most, if not all, of the dogs that individuals have been defining, per many of the most recent threads addressing this, as "crippled roach backs" or any of the other popular terms, are in fact incorrect. 

There has been a gross over-generalization that if a dog has more angulation than what somebody is used to or prefers, that it is automatically a "roach back". And, these are frankly, uneducated observations. 

I have seen MANY working line dogs professionally stacked for pictures that would be described as "roach backed" per their pictures by individuals claiming that the show line dogs they see in pictures are "roach backed". I have also seen many working line dogs in an SV style show ring who "dug in" and pulled beautifully causing them to look "roach backed" according to the same aforementioned assumptions. 

I will echo the advise of EMOORE...go out and get educated by actually SEEING these dogs that you (no one in particular) only have opinions of through pictures....one will find that there are exaggerations of every type and every line of GSD...and that most of these exaggerations are made more by people's biases/assumptions/preferences and less by any actual dog they see.


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## MicheleMarie

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I have mostly working lines. It is ignorant to say all show lines are banana back and roaches by viewing those videos. Have you ever went and seen these dogs in person Maggie? You would be surprised. I suggest you and others generalizing them in that tone like that do so. I have been with wl gsds over 28 years and I have seen as many bad wl dogs as I have show lines. I do not understand this behavior of attacking the show lines by so many in wl dogs. I do not see the sl people constantly attacking us for sunken top lines, short reach, bad rear assemblies and so on. A good dog is a good dog a bad dog is still a dog and still loved.


she didn't state that all SL dogs are bred like that?? but that is what is WINNING in germany and show line breeders over in germany breed to win.


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## Vandal

I am sitting here wondering why people just can never seem to accept that something they "like" is simply not correct. I think the people who really do care about German Shepherds, have no problem calling a spade a spade. Brian is right about the roach and I have seen WLs with a roach as well. However, because people used the wrong term , it doesn't make what has happened to the SLs structure, correct. There is still something VERY wrong there. Anyone with eyes can see that. Just like dogs who want to eat their owners are incorrect or a dog who will not protect is not correct and so on. 

I personally, do not make judgments from photos. I realize how bad things can look if you don't get the angle right, even on a correct dog. However, I have seen large numbers of these dogs in person and I have worked them as the helper. MOST of the ones I have seen in the last ten years or so, are not correct, in structure or temperament. There is not a show line standard or a working line standard. There is ONE standard. People want to sit here and say the breeders are going after each other but most of you can't seem to get yourselves out of that mindset. It is about German Shepherds. 

Also, consider just how many dogs are SL dogs in Germany. A huge majority. If they are heading the way they have been for the last decade or two, what will be left of the breed in another ten years? For me, it is that simple. I will help people work their dogs no matter what the "type" but I see the struggle it is for them and I feel sorry for the dogs. MANY of those dogs do not enjoy the work and it is very stressful for them . A GSD is supposed to LOVE working. They are supposed to have the body and mind to allow them to love it. People are not breeding these dogs for the dogs, they are breeding them for their own vanity.


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## billsharp

Thank you Deejays Owner. I had always thought roach meant that hump higher than and just behind the withers, not just the sloped banana back. Thought I was going crazy reading the first part of this thread.

I can't believe that dog that won best of show in the first video post. The poor thing looked deformed (IMO!) and crippled. Forgive my naivete', but doesn't it seem logical that the slope at the hips would be produced from the stack, not genetically? Wasn't that the original goal of the standard? To breed such an exaggerated slope that the dog appears permanently stacked even when walking is just kind of cruel (IMO!), kind of like the breathing problems inflicted upon modern bulldogs.


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## LARHAGE

deejays_owner said:


> *the term "roach back" is when the point of roach is higher than the withers plain and simple.*
> 
> this is a true roach back, and no one is breeding for it, as it's a fault!!


 

thank you!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hillary_Plog

Vandal said:


> I am sitting here wondering why people just can never seem to accept that something they "like" is simply not correct. I think the people who really do care about German Shepherds, have no problem calling a spade a spade. Brian is right about the roach and I have seen WLs with a roach as well. However, because people used the wrong term , it doesn't make what has happened to the SLs structure, correct. There is still something VERY wrong there. Anyone with eyes can see that. Just like dogs who want to eat their owners are incorrect or a dog who will not protect is not correct and so on.
> 
> I personally, do not make judgments from photos. I realize how bad things can look if you don't get the angle right, even on a correct dog. However, I have seen large numbers of these dogs in person and I have worked them as the helper. MOST of the ones I have seen in the last ten years or so, are not correct, in structure or temperament. There is not a show line standard or a working line standard. There is ONE standard. People want to sit here and say the breeders are going after each other but most of you can't seem to get yourselves out of that mindset. It is about German Shepherds.
> 
> Also, consider just how many dogs are SL dogs in Germany. A huge majority. If they are heading the way they have been for the last decade or two, what will be left of the breed in another ten years? For me, it is that simple. I will help people work their dogs no matter what the "type" but I see the struggle it is for them and I feel sorry for the dogs. MANY of those dogs do not enjoy the work and it is very stressful for them . A GSD is supposed to LOVE working. They are supposed to have the body and mind to allow them to love it. People are not breeding these dogs for the dogs, they are breeding them for their own vanity.


If it is "about German Shepherds" let's keep it "about German Shepherds" and not about what is happening to the show lines in Germany...last I looked, this thread was about what, technically, a "roach back" is....not the demise of the show line...because, for every show line that you say "does not enjoy the work" or schutzhund is "very stressful for them" I will show you a working line that REFUSES to hold a dumbbell or is handler aggressive or is spooky and weak-nerved on stick hits or can't finish a blind search *OR*.......

drum roll please....

is "simply not correct" per the standard you mention we should be upholding.

EVERY line has exaggerations and faults and wide-held assumptions based on opinion and preference. 

It's unfortunate that you have to work nervy dogs that don't enjoy bite work...and it's even more unfortunate that they happen to be show lines...but, if we are talking GERMAN SHEPHERDS, as you imply we should, and not working vs. show...then we should also talk about the temperament and structure issues of the working lines as well. I, unfortunately, over the last 10 years have seen many of them that "don't like to work".


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## Vandal

Try reading what I wrote just one more time.

I have talked about working lines PLENTY, much to the dislike of WL breeders. There are faults and then there are FAULTS. When normal everyday people are looking at something and making comments like what Bill just did, something is very wrong.

Are you saying the dogs in that video are correct? I don't want to talk about all the others who are not like the dogs in the video. Just answer that question.


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## LARHAGE

Hillary_Plog said:


> If it is "about German Shepherds" let's keep it "about German Shepherds" and not about what is happening to the show lines in Germany...last I looked, this thread was about what, technically, a "roach back" is....not the demise of the show line...because, for every show line that you say "does not enjoy the work" or schutzhund is "very stressful for them" I will show you a working line that REFUSES to hold a dumbbell or is handler aggressive or is spooky and weak-nerved on stick hits or can't finish a blind search *OR*.......
> 
> drum roll please....
> 
> is "simply not correct" per the standard you mention we should be upholding.
> 
> EVERY line has exaggerations and faults and wide-held assumptions based on opinion and preference.
> 
> It's unfortunate that you have to work nervy dogs that don't enjoy bite work...and it's even more unfortunate that they happen to be show lines...but, if we are talking GERMAN SHEPHERDS, as you imply we should, and not working vs. show...then we should also talk about the temperament and structure issues of the working lines as well. I, unfortunately, over the last 10 years have seen many of them that "don't like to work".


 
Great post Hillary!


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## Hillary_Plog

Vandal said:


> Try reading what I wrote just one more time.
> 
> I have talked about working lines PLENTY, much to the dislike of WL breeders. There are faults and then there are FAULTS. When normal everyday people are looking at something and making comments like what Bill just did, something is very wrong.
> 
> Are you saying the dogs in that video are correct? I don't want to talk about all the others who are not like the dogs in the video. Just answer that question.


I read your post to a detailed degree, which is why I commented only on what you said in your post. 

I am not sure which video or what dog you are asking me are "correct"...there where several posted, but no where did I ever say that I "liked" or thought any dog was "correct" other than to say that the term "roach back" was being used incorrectly. If you could advise as to what video, I would be perfectly happy to answer.

I am not a mind reader and do not know that you have "talked" about working lines plenty, all I know is what you are posting in this thread and what I am commenting in response to....and, frankly, I am not interested in getting into a debate about working vs. show or what someone's personal preference for structure may be...I try to stay diplomatic and objective and open-minded, which is why I feel I have learned so much over the years and how I continue learning, and why I appreciate BOTH the working and the German show lines.


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## Vandal

It's on the first page of this thread, posted by Maggie Rose Lee. 
VA 1 Remo progeny group.


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## Hillary_Plog

I believe that Bill was actually commenting on the dog/dogs in the first video "half dog half frog" because he mentioned that it was the first video post, and he said the dog received "Best in Show"....so that would not have been Remo...

Either way, if you are referring to the dog in the first video posted, "half dog half frog", my PERSONAL PREFERENCE is not for the American show line. So, there are many things that I find that are not aesthetically pleasing. 

Second, I tried viewing the Remo video again, so I could give an accurate account, but it kept buffering...but, based on Remo's stack pic on pedigree database, I don't find his structure offensive or "crippled". I could pick it apart and comment on his topline, croup, upper arm, pastern, etc...but, this would only be based on a picture and his position during a stack. Generally speaking, without seeing his movement, I would say that he is a handsome dog...I don't see him as being an atrocity to the breed. 

Disclaimer: a dog isn't just his picture, or his movement (or a video of his movement), or his placement in a show (that was most likely political anyway), or his bitework, or his bidability, or his color/pigment, or his progeny. We have to consider all of these things and have to STOP placing gross generalizations about a line from any ONE PARTICULAR DOG and a video of him. 

As I said earlier, I am not on this forum or this thread to partake in show vs. working lines, particularly when I was only commenting on the technical use of the term "roach back" and it's improper use. 

It seems as though individuals have agendas, or are so darn bent on trying to PROVE something is or isn't better or is or isn't an atrocity to the betterment of the breed (working or show)...when what I see happening is our ego and our preferences and our misconceptions getting in the way of us JUST AGREEING that there are improvements to be made overall and highlighting what we are doing to MAKE those improvements through good breeding practices...instead of one thread after another showing the same video over and over again proclaiming that EVERY show dog is a deformed waste of space, just because we see one video or one picture.


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## gagsd

Catu said:


> A back that looks like if the dog has a hump.


This made me laugh!


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## Vandal

> If you could advise as to what video, I would be perfectly happy to answer.





> It's on the first page of this thread, posted by Maggie Rose Lee.
> VA 1 Remo progeny group.





> Second, I tried viewing the Remo video again, so I could give an accurate account, but it kept buffering...<snip>


Sorry you can't see it but by all means keep debating with whoever it is you are talking to.


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## Dylan

The FCI/WUSV breed standard has this to say about toplines (I am paraphrasing):

"The back, including the loins, is straight and strongly developed yet not too long between the withers and the croup."

"The withers must be long and high, sloping slightly from front to rear, defined against the back into which it gently blends without breaking the topline."

"Fault.............a soft back.....a balanced and even trotter will have a topline that falls in moderate curves from the tip of the ears over the neck and level back through the tip of the tail..."


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## Hillary_Plog

Vandal said:


> Sorry you can't see it but by all means keep debating with whoever it is you are talking to.


LOL, ummmm, I thought that I quite eloquently stated that I chose *NOT* to debate and I *did* give you my observation based on Remo's stack picture since I have tried for a half hour to watch the video. 

I'm not sure where your condescension is coming from, but I very clearly answered your question the best I could from what I can see right now. Honestly, it seems as though you could really care less about what I think. You have already made your mind up that you want a "debate". I am not interested. 

But, you know what, even if he is the loosest, worst moving dog in the *whole world*, it still doesn't change how I feel about getting past gross generalizations and misconceptions based on ONE SINGLE DOG in a video.

Come on...I'm sure your agenda would drastically change if I posted a thread picking apart a working dog who several people believed had awful movement and conformation.

Good grief.


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## wildo

Hillary_Plog said:


> ...if I posted a thread picking apart a working dog who several people believed had awful movement and conformation.


...Sorry, those don't exist. :nono: :lurking:


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## Hillary_Plog

wildo said:


> ...Sorry, those don't exist. :nono: :lurking:


LOL...apparently not.


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## Vandal

> But, you know what, even if he is the loosest, worst moving dog in the *whole world*, it still doesn't change how I feel about getting past gross generalizations and misconceptions based on ONE SINGLE DOG in a video.


It's not one single dog but then, how would you know that when you haven't watched it. It is that one single dog's progeny group. BTW, that one dog will have a rather significant impact on the *breed* since he is VA 1. In case you didn't know, many consider the VA 1 dog the best in the *whole* *world*.

I have no intention of being hooked in by the rest of your comments.

However, by all means, post the working line dog. I will happily watch and comment.


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## Sunstreaked

More than a year ago, when we were first thinking about getting a German Shepherd, I found this forum and one of the first things I saw was that "dog/frog" video. My DH and I both watched it and said we didn't want a dog that was deformed like that. Having not been around a lot of shepherds, we thought that was how the breed was now. 

Fortunately, we were very wrong about that, but I am definitely a lay person as far as this breed and that video was very off putting. In truth, it ruled out the show line for us. I know now that was our ignorance about the breed in general asserting itself, but at that time, that's what we decided.


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## Hillary_Plog

Again with the condescension. 

Yes, I saw that it said progeny group, and can see that there is more than one dog in the video, but you asked me what I thought of that PARTICULAR dog...not what I thought of the movement of his entire progeny group. 

I am accutely aware of the working class ratings, thank you very much, and have seen and participated in plenty of SV style conformation shows and Sieger shows to know that VA1 has less to do with being the "best dog in the whole world" and more to do with politics and judge preference/bias. 

I don't need to be schooled and I don't need a debate. Once again, I will reiterate that I was in no way and am in no way interested in arguing/debating or hashing out the demise of the GSD based on one sieger and HIS PROGENY GROUP (I included that so you don't get mad at me again ). 

I will stick to talking to and about the breeders that are working harmoniously to find a common goal of bettering the breed and communicating it effectively, *WITHOUT* being rude and condescending.


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## Vandal

> Yes, I saw that it said progeny group, and can see that there is more than one dog in the video, but you asked me what I thought of that PARTICULAR dog...not what I thought of the movement of his entire progeny group.


No, Hillary, I didn't. 

I said this:


> Are you saying the* dogs* in that video are correct? I don't want to talk about all the others who are not like the* dogs* in the video. Just answer that question.


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## gagsd

Hillary_Plog said:


> I will stick to talking to and about the breeders that are working harmoniously to find a common goal of bettering the breed and communicating it effectively, *WITHOUT* being rude and condescending.


That reminds me of the BH Trainer thread.


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## MaggieRoseLee

People............................ can't we all just realize that we all have opinions and won't ever all agree.

If we did it would be BORING BORING BORING and no one would ever bother to post.

I love dark sable GSD's. Just cause I say that does NOT mean that black/reds with a saddle are THE WORST DOGS EVER or that their owners are horrible people..

But it seems like THAT is how every one reads posts and then blow up in a whole lot of CRAZY! I like sables, period! It's fine if you like white GSD's or black GSD's or? I'm not saying other colors are bad, just cause the color I like is good FOR ME! 

So people should be able to remain calm, clear and coherent to explain why they like what they like. Why someone else likes what they like. And it's FINE that they may not be the same at all!

I posted the video of a GROUP of showline GSD's in Germany, running around the ring exactly just to show an EXAMPLE of what the dogs look like over there. Not one dog. Not one photo. But an entire ring full of dogs running around at a show. 

Here's more that may buffer better.... the videos can speak for itself for what is being bred and how the dogs look.. (hey, and where are my sables  )


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## Hillary_Plog

Vandal said:


> No, Hillary, I didn't.


I sincerely apologize for overlooking your plural use of dog.  I had a hard time understanding which video you were referring to, to begin with, as you mentioned the dog in the video that Bill watched and then referred to the aforementioned. 

My mistake, but, unfortunately, as I have stated already, a video of one dog and HIS PROGENY GROUP are simply not enough for me to fall into blindly believing these mass generalizations about a line of dogs. I have seen WAY TOO many dogs that are spectacular from just about every line to not believe that there isn't enough good breeding that will overcome the bad. 

Maybe I'm an optimist. Maybe I'm naive to not want to blindly argue some arrogant viewpoint and beat it to death, over and over again...and maybe I'm silly to want to have an open mind about something so ever-changing and dynamic as breeding and genetics...

Like I said, I will save it for a kinder folk.


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## Hillary_Plog

MaggieRoseLee said:


> *So people should be able to remain calm, clear and coherent to explain why they like what they like. Why someone else likes what they like. And it's FINE that they may not be the same at all!*



Totally agree! Tried to point this out and veer away from the bashing...sigh...


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## blehmannwa

You know, I only knew what I didn't want. I attended a couple of dog shows in the PNW and saw quite a few of the "banana dogs" . I also disliked the skittish and reactive character of the handful of show GSD's that I saw. I fostered a working line sable female and she drove me crazy and wrecked my yard. Poor thing was very stressed, her owner was ill. She was reunited when her owner recovered.

I visited a breeder of some repute and met all of the dogs. My favorite was a recent German import from Vom Kirschental lines and I got one of his pups. Havoc's pedigree is all german showlines and he is not roached, not nervy. He's a scarily smart, loyal, and lovely boy. I didn't care about his pedigree and was unaware of the vast chasm that apparently exists between the lines. I just found a breeder whose dogs I liked. 
I'm very happy with him.


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## AgileGSD

It would seem the term "roach" is accurate to describe the toplines typically seen in WGSL, according to it's common use in dog terminology. "Camel backed" or "wheel back" would possibly be more accurate for some if you want to get really technical but those terms are not widely used. Of course there are varying degrees of a roach back - you can have a dog with a very pronounced roach back or a dog with a ever so slight roach back but they are both still roach backed. Just like a dog can be very cowhocked or just barely cowhocked but both would still be described as cowhocked.

Some examples and definitions of "roach back". Basically, it's used to describe an arched, curved or convex topline. FWIW if you google "dog roach back" and click on images, you get a bunch of pictures of WGSL dogs...

*"Definition of ROACH BACK*

*:* an arched back (as of a dog) 


*Illustration of ROACH BACK*



*First Known Use of ROACH BACK*

1874"



Roach back - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


*







Topline deviations







* 







​ 














 Great Dane Club of America - Neck, topline and body​ ​ ​ "INCORRECT TOPLINES:







"​ 
​ Judges Education:* The Rottweiler Illustrated Standard









This poor bitch has a sunken topline followed by a roach over the loin. The reason: severe faults in both front and rear. Her really weak rear causes her to stand with her rear legs "under" her. This causes the roach over the loin. She is standing like that to relieve stress (and discomfort) in her rear legs.
Notice that her head and neck do not clear the topline line. This is caused by the short upper arm. 







This male American bulldog is in the running for "Worst Built Dog of the Century" award. Not only is his neck nonexistent, but his extremely poor rear causes a strong roach over his loin. 
You'll see this dog again... poor thing, there is hardly anything about him which 
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup

"Roach back: an overly arched, convex topline."
Canine Terms, Dog Words, Dog Terms

"Roach back - slight arch over the loin"

"Wheel back - continuous arch from withers to tail"

Canine Terminology

"There are, in general, three different types of toplines (backs/backlines) in dogs: arched or roach-backed (convex), flat or straight, and sagging or sway-backed (concave). A roach-back has always been preferred for working purposes, as "the arch contributes strength to the spine" (Denlinger). (However, this arch over the kidneys and back end should not be confused with a humpback, where a hump is present in the middle of the back.) "Eridox - history

"Roach back A back arched or convex to some degree along the topline" http://my.ilstu.edu/~cahuff/dogdict.html

"Both horses and dogs can "suffer" from a condition called a "roached back". Condition may be too strong a word to describe this. What it is, is a dorsal curve in the spine, usually in the thoraco-lumbar junction." Equine and Canine Structural Integration: The Roached Back


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## MaggieRoseLee

blehmannwa said:


> I visited a breeder of some repute and met all of the dogs. My favorite was a recent German import from Vom Kirschental lines and I got one of his pups. Havoc's pedigree is all german showlines and he is not roached, not nervy. He's a scarily smart, loyal, and lovely boy. I didn't care about his pedigree and was unaware of the vast chasm that apparently exists between the lines. *I just found a breeder whose dogs I liked. *
> *I'm very happy with him*.


And there you go! That's what we all should do. Learn as much as we can. MEET as many breeders/dogs as we can. Then go with the ones that fit our likes from there. :wub:


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## Noodles

Are there any breeders who cross German show lines and American show lines. Though it would take some time they both have qualities that would improve the other through responsible breeding and a close watch on genetics. Imo


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## Hillary_Plog

Okay...so I got home and was able to view the Remo video...not that it matters...I'm sure that Vandal is out sticking pins through my VooDoo doll eyes right now , but I see no issue with Remo's movement. Yes, he is an angulated dog (but, showlines have angles...no secret) but he moves nicely and is put together well (from what I can see).

Now, some of the younger progeny (older puppies, perhaps) do look loose in the rear and are heavily angulated. There are two that I saw that I was not impressed at all by their movement, and in fact, probably wouldn't have included them in the progeny group. 

I could go on and on..and am not sure what my opinion would have proven for the sake of the original so called "debate" anyway...

But, I will say again, I can find puppies/dogs from any line and find structural, tempermental, movement problems no matter who bred them...and NO MATTER the personal preference. 

****As MRL has suggested, it would be nice if there was more communication and collaboration so we can still embrace all "personal preferences" between lines and still come out with betterment of the breed in mind. ****


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## Noodles

Sorry I will post my previous query in its own section so I don't hijack.


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## PaddyD

So
Do ya think the OP got the answer to the question: What is meant by "roach back"?


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## doggiedad

imported show lines have the roach
more than others, so i think.



Jessiewessie99 said:


> And so tha OP knows, not ALL Showline breeders dogs have "roach backs".


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## Jessiewessie99

I was just letting the OP know that not all WGSL dogs are like that. Because sometimes with people who are new to the breed, if they see one video they will think are all like that. Thats all I was trying to say.


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