# oversized breeder



## Josh8208

I have a small gsd now and I'm looking for someone who knows of a breeder with oversized german shepherds near western pennsylvania. Of course I am still very serious about having a gsd with good temperment and health. 

Any help would be great


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## KZoppa

have to warn you..... you're not likely to get any good comments or help on this one.... reputable breeders dont breed for oversized pups....


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## Lucy Dog

Breeding dogs solely on size compromises a lot of issues you may want to avoid with this breed. 

A reputable breeder, in my opinion, would never base their breeding off of size, especially when it's outside of the standard.

How big of a german shepherd are you looking for?


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## Josh8208

Maybe oversized isn't the word...I want a big dog. Around 100 pounds or so


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## Emoore

I've met a couple of oversized breeders. Oh wait, you mean breeders of oversized dogs! Nevermind. . .


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## KZoppa

perhaps you should just look into a male GSD instead as they can get pretty good sized.


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## Franksmom

I have one of the oversized GSD's and love mine, you can pm me if you want more info on where mine came from.
Like Kzoppa said alot of the people on this site will go out of their way to warn you against them for all kinds of reasons. none of which so far would sway me from getting another pup from my breeder.


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## Lucy Dog

Here's a very good recent thread I'd suggest you read through. It's a pretty good thread, but it's worth the read.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/151762-larger-than-normal-german-shepherds.html


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## robinhuerta

Who called.?......someone asked for an "oversized" breeder??


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## Lucy Dog

robinhuerta said:


> Who called.?......someone asked for an "oversized" breeder??


I demand a website to see all those oversized dogs!!


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## JakodaCD OA

robin you are to funny LOL


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## codmaster

Josh8208 said:


> Maybe oversized isn't the word...I want a big dog. Around 100 pounds or so


Many GSD males are at or slightly over 100 lbs. esp. a lot of US SL as the bigger dogs seem to be favored in the show ring.

Just curious - why would you want such a big GSD?


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## Josh8208

Id have to say just because when I was younger I had a big gsd. I love my shepherd now and she's only 65 pounds. I didn't expect for some people to be so rude. I am not looking for a 140 pound dog. I just wanted one on the higher end of the spectrum and thought I could get some advice into good reputable breeders in my area. Id go to the sae breeder I got my pup now from but that's 8 hours away and I figured someone knew of one closer to me.


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## Elaine

Your current dog is a normal size; she is not small. Standard for a male is 70-85 pounds. A 100 pound dog is huge and someone that is breeding specifically for that size doesn't care about what the breed is supposed to be. A huge dog is much more inclined to have health and physical problems.


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## KZoppa

Josh8208 said:


> Id have to say just because when I was younger I had a big gsd. I love my shepherd now and she's only 65 pounds. I didn't expect for some people to be so rude. I am not looking for a 140 pound dog. I just wanted one on the higher end of the spectrum and thought I could get some advice into good reputable breeders in my area. Id go to the sae breeder I got my pup now from but that's 8 hours away and I figured someone knew of one closer to me.


 
did warn you. I like bigger dogs as well but sometimes.... well.... honestly you probably should have waited a few more posts before making this thread. You would have been better prepared for the "rude". big sticklers for breed standard around here. Just look into getting a male GSD. They're on the larger scale anyway and still in breed standard or pretty darn close. I wouldnt trade my dogs for anything. You want a larger dog, look into the larger breeds. best advice i have beyond look at male GSDs.


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## Lucy Dog

Breeding dogs that size to produce extra large puppies seriously reduces the gene pool. Someone breeding that dogs likely doesn't have as much regard to health and temperament as a reputable breeder breeding within the standard does. 

Someone breeding GSD's that size is definitely not anything i'd consider close to reputable.

Also, keep in mind that just because you had a great "oversized" GSD when you were younger, doesn't mean getting another oversized GSD is going to be the same. 

What's going to happen when this new dog has hip and elbow dysplasia and wants to attack every person it sees because the breeder didn't do any health and temperament tests? It's a very real possibility when dealing with breeder who breed for size alone.

Plus i'm not too sure what a 140 pound GSD can do that a 90 pound one can't...?


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## onyx'girl

This breeder has old lines that go way back. 
East Coast Black Magic GSD / Classic German Shepherd Dog Breeders


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## Franksmom

ok I know these threads just go round and round, but I do have to say one thing dont' assume that the breeders that have the oversized dogs are breeding for size only and not temperament, health and brains. 
No matter what you want your GSD for you need to talk to the breeders, weed out the ones that are not breeding for what you want, and go with the breeder that will get you the puppy that will fit into your lifestye the best.


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## Josh8208

Lucy Dog said:


> Breeding dogs that size to produce extra large puppies seriously reduces the gene pool. Someone breeding that dogs likely doesn't have as much regard to health and temperament as a reputable breeder breeding within the standard does.
> 
> Someone breeding GSD's that size is definitely not anything i'd consider close to reputable.
> 
> Also, keep in mind that just because you had a great "oversized" GSD when you were younger, doesn't mean getting another oversized GSD is going to be the same.
> 
> What's going to happen when this new dog has hip and elbow dysplasia and wants to attack every person it sees because the breeder didn't do any health and temperament tests? It's a very real possibility when dealing with breeder who breed for size alone.
> 
> Plus i'm not too sure what a 140 pound GSD can do that a 90 pound one can't...?


I do not think you ready my posts. I said overized wasn't the word I should have said and that I was just looking for a gsd on the upper end. That I wasn't looking for a 140 pound gsd. And also that I was concerned with health and temperment. And I never said my childhood dog was oversized. I said it was big. 

Excuse you


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## Lucy Dog

Franksmom said:


> ok I know these threads just go round and round, but I do have to say one thing dont' assume that the breeders that have the oversized dogs are breeding for size only and not temperament, health and brains.
> No matter what you want your GSD for you need to talk to the breeders, weed out the ones that are not breeding for what you want, and go with the breeder that will get you the puppy that will fit into your lifestye the best.


Name one breeder that breeds specifically towards oversized dogs that also does health testing, takes pedigrees into consideration, titles, and works the dogs that they are breeding. 

Basically, a breeder that produces these type of GSD's and actually does something in the GSD community other than producing more puppies because i've yet to see one.


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## GSDGunner

Gunner came from two champions (who were offspring of champions etc), to the standard, health tested, OFA, the whole shabang.
And he's 27 inches and when he was weighed last month, he was 103.7lbs. 
The vet agrees that he should be about 95lbs according to his height. 
So, yes, we are getting at least 8lbs off of him. Bad winter weather and lack of enough exercise because of it led to the extra weight. 

The breeder did not breed him to be over the standard, but it happens.
My suggestion is to find a good reputable breeder, one who breeds to the standard and be happy with a healthy dog, regardless of how big he is.


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## Catu

you don't need that. when I chose my breeder I chose one who cared for temperament, working ability and health as his training goals. I wanted a big dog because I live in a rural area and a visual deterrent would make me feel safer. The breeder, who bred to dogs within standard chose the bigger one for me (and for other reasons too, beside size) and I got exactly what I wanted: a pup that will be on the upper end of the standard and if over-sized, still within healthy boundaries and not a fat huge monster.


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## Lucy Dog

GSDGunner said:


> Gunner came from two champions (who were offspring of champions etc), to the standard, health tested, OFA, the whole shabang.
> And he's 27 inches and when he was weighed last month, he was 103.7lbs.
> The vet agrees that he should be about 95lbs according to his height.
> So, yes, we are getting at least 8lbs off of him. Bad winter weather and lack of enough exercise because of it led to the extra weight.
> 
> The breeder did not breed him to be over the standard, but it happens.
> My suggestion is to find a good reputable breeder, one who breeds to the standard and be happy with a healthy dog, regardless of how big he is.


Good advice. And if a bigger than average puppy happens to pop up in a litter, so be it. Just let that breeder know you're looking for a bigger puppy. 

I'm just not a fan of the breeders who breed specifically towards the market of people looking for larger than the standard dogs.


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## GSDGunner

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm just not a fan of the breeders who breed specifically towards the market of people looking for larger than the standard dogs.


Me either. It just goes to show that you can breed two dogs that are perfect to the standard and still have one or two that go over. 
It's like my husband and his siblings. They're mom and dad are both about 5'7" and produced two boys over 6ft and a daughter about 5'8".
It happens.


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## Franksmom

Lucy Dog said:


> Name one breeder that breeds specifically towards oversized dogs that also does health testing, takes pedigrees into consideration, titles, and works the dogs that they are breeding.
> 
> Basically, a breeder that produces these type of GSD's and actually does something in the GSD community other than producing more puppies because i've yet to see one.


The breeder I bought my pup from does do health testing, and breeds for health and temperament, Titles and Pedigrees are subjective depending on what you want to do with the pup. I do AKC Obed. rally, agility and such, I feel like my pup has the pedigree for this and the temperament that I want. I dont' think he'll be the oversized 140lb giant so many people jump to when they hear the word oversized, but he is bigger then standard.

I refuse to give a name because I've seen so many jumped all over and torn apart just because of the word "oversize" being on the site. 
(i'm not saying you did this, just i've seen it done)


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## idahospud49

I agree with these last few posts. The previous litter from my puppies parents produced a dog who is currently 100 pounds and still growing some. The dad is 85 pounds, although he is lean as he is a working dog, while the mom is definitely smaller. Let a breeder know you would prefer a big dog, but be happy with what you get.


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## Rerun

Josh8208 said:


> I do not think you ready my posts. I said overized wasn't the word I should have said and that I was just looking for a gsd on the upper end. That I wasn't looking for a 140 pound gsd. And also that I was concerned with health and temperment. And I never said my childhood dog was oversized. I said it was big.
> 
> Excuse you


Given that the upper end is in the 80's by breed standard, if you want a dog in the 100 lb range, that is oversized.


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## Emoore

Josh8208 said:


> And I never said my childhood dog was oversized. I said it was big.


And how tall were you at the time?


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## GSD_Xander

I would look at finding a good, reputable breeder that has the personality traits in a german shepherd you want and then contact that breeder and get on a reservation list for a litter stating that you want a male, preferably one that will be on the larger side. 

GL


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## MaggieRoseLee

idahospud49 said:


> I agree with these last few posts. The previous litter from my puppies parents produced a dog who is currently 100 pounds and still growing some. The dad is 85 pounds, although he is lean as he is a working dog, while the mom is definitely smaller. Let a breeder know you would prefer a big dog, but be happy with what you get.


:thumbup:

If you want a big dog that looks like a GSD, have you looked at Our Shiloh Shepherds Community or KSCI provided by Bravenet.com Both the King and Shiloh Shepherds are SUPPOSED to be huge and the breeders aren't just breeding for size but all the other factors.

If I wanted a Beagle, I wouldn't also expect it to be an 80 pound dog cause I like big dogs...... Not saying there aren't some big beagles out there


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## vomlittlehaus

Josh, I think you will find a good reputable breeder that will produce a dog larger than the one you currently have. Sounds to me like your female is at the lower end of the standard and you would like another at the top end of the standard. You mentioned 100 lbs, but I think if you saw an 85 lb male that you would find him to be adequate. Females do tend to be on the smaller side, compared to siblings that are male. That said, you need to look at bloodlines that produce the upper medium size, as described by the standard. 

I think it would be helpful if other posters read through all the comments made in a thread. The OP did state that he perhaps chose the wrong word, 'oversized' and changed that to 'big'. After reading his original post carefully, I took that to mean larger than the GSD he currently owns. 

Josh, I would encourage you to get out and look at some different dogs. I think you will be surprised that its not the weight you will be concerned with, but rather a more substantial dog (large bone, broad head and chest).


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## Cassidy's Mom

Josh8208 said:


> I do not think you ready my posts. I said overized wasn't the word I should have said and that I was just looking for a gsd on the upper end.


Actually, you used the perfect word. A 100 pound GSD_ IS _oversized. The "upper end" of the breed standard would be a male of no more than 88.18 pounds or a female of no more than 70.55 pounds (converted from kgs). Anything beyond that is oversized, no matter what you choose to call it. 

While it's not unusual to get a slightly larger dog out of two parents that are within the standard, (as others have pointed out), that is a lot over. This is a breed that intended to be medium sized, not huge.


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## Cassidy's Mom

dawnandjr said:


> Josh, I would encourage you to get out and look at some different dogs. I think you will be surprised that its not the weight you will be concerned with, but rather a more substantial dog (large bone, broad head and chest).


You can definitely get that without going so far over the standard (100 pounds). Keefer is "only" 80 pounds, but is usually guessed at more than that because he's big boned and broad, with a large masculine head.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

You can also check rescues and shelters - we get oversized dogs all the time - you would know exactly how big the dog will be too.


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## Josh8208

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You can definitely get that without going so far over the standard (100 pounds). Keefer is "only" 80 pounds, but is usually guessed at more than that because he's big boned and broad, with a large masculine head.


Well do any of you know of what lines I should look into or have any advice in breeders?


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## GSDGunner

Josh8208 said:


> Well do any of you know of what lines I should look into or have any advice in breeders?


If you could post your location it might help with suggestions.
I'm no expert but I would think that any line can produce a large male.
Mine is an American Showline and he's larger than the standard.

I'll let the experts advise on what lines to look at.


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## Josh8208

Western pa....it was stated earlier in the thread


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## GSDGunner

Josh8208 said:


> Western pa....it was stated earlier in the thread


Pardon me! I did not go back to reread the thread. Forgive me for trying to help.


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## WVGSD

*oversized GSD - just large*

Josh:

I sent you a private message.

Shannon
mom to Max - rescued GSD - December 2010


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## Jessiewessie99

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You can also check rescues and shelters - we get oversized dogs all the time - you would know exactly how big the dog will be too.


I agree with this. My shelter gets pretty big GSDs. Well I am 5'6.


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## GSDElsa

Josh8208 said:


> Well do any of you know of what lines I should look into or have any advice in breeders?


 
The problem is, a puppy is a crapshoot no matter what. Just because it's a line the might produce dogs on the higher end of the standard does not mean that's what you're going to get when you go buy a puppy at 8 weeks old.

If you are truly that concerned with getting a dog around 100 pounds, I would definitely focus your search on adults whether from breeders or rescues. That is the only way you are going to guarantee (if you are getting your dog from a reputable breeder who tries t breed within the standard) that you get a dog the size you are looking for.


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## wolfstraum

I have friends who wanted a big GSD in Western PA (where I am as well)....he is lean at 105 pounds....he also has had about $7000 in cruciate surgery already.... he was from a "local breeder" - they have lost his AKC application (never sent in) so I don't know his pedigree for sure, but he looks to be a WGSL mixed with whatever type they had available...

There are tons of people making puppies in Western PA - there is no one I know of making "larger" litters on purpose....

I will say though, my smallest female pup in my I litter ended up being the tallest female adult! So you really can't tell at 8 weeks what you are going to get!!!

Lee


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## BowWowMeow

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> You can also check rescues and shelters - we get oversized dogs all the time - you would know exactly how big the dog will be too.


Absolutely! Massie was a very lean female and weighed 90 pounds in her prime.


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## Tihannah

Lately I've been thinking my Kaiya is rather small for a GSD as well. She's around 60lbs. We were walking through the neighborhood today and this little boy rides by on his bike and says, "Whoa! That's a BIG dog!" lol. And then I remind myself how much harder she would have been able to handle with her fear reactivity had she been 20-30 lbs more.


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## martemchik

I don't think 100 looks too bad depending on the frame of the dog. I mean you add one more inch of height over the standard and it could add on that 15 pounds. And like it was said, even two perfect champion dogs can end up having a few puppies over the standard that are too tall. Last weekend I saw a 140 lb german shepherd, I don't even know if I want to call it that though. This thing just lumbered around. I'll admit that the owners also made him overweight but they told me the sire was 120 and the dam was 90!!! I was in shock, the dam was bigger than my pups sire...

As for your search, you don't sound like you want an "oversized/big boned" shepherd like a lot of people that come on this forum look for. Just look for a larger sire and get a male pup, nothing guarantees weight, but you're stacking the odds as people like to say on here.


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## RubyTuesday

King & Shiloh Sheps are very large, but both breeds are rife with health & temperament problems in addition to being extremely (IMO excessively) soft. I much prefer an experienced, reputable breeder of large GSD to either of those breeds.

Josh, consider contacting the breeder linked in Onyx's post. Although the breeder is not in Pennsylvania, (he's located in the Southeast), he's very knowledgeable & he's passionate about the breed. He might know of someone in your area or you might want to consider having your pup shipped.

Sam, my bitch, is 27", 100+ (slightly hefty) lbs, healthy, sound, personable & utterly stable. Djibouti, my 3yr old male (& Sam's grandson) is 29.5" & weighed ~93 lbs at 18 mos. He's probably a bit heavier now, but probably not very much. He’s vigorous, healthy, athletic, with a lovely personality & an excellent temperament. 

Regardless of which physical attributes they prefer & select for, good breeders will never neglect health, temperament & longevity. Nor do they focus exclusively on a single characteristic be it size, color, angulation, drives or aggression. 

IF you decide for an oversized GSD there will be those who disapprove, some of them strongly, many of them loudly. So? Know your own mind, know it well, & be strong in that knowledge. I’m very, very happy that I used my judgment in deciding for Sam & Djibouti. They’re wonderful ambassadors for the breed & perfect for me. Compared to that, board naysayers are insignificant.

I considered rescue prior to getting Sam. Unfortunately, the GS available in my area, regardless of size, were all either bad with cats, &/or other dogs &/or children, or they had significant health problems, or they were shy, spooky & unstable. Some had more than one issue & males were automatically neutered. (Neutering isn’t a deal killer for me, but I wanted a male & preferred that he be hormonally intact.)

Consider communicating with members who have had the kind of GSD you're looking for. They're information is rooted in experience & they're usually the best source of accurate info.


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## vat

Males are bigger, I have both. My female is 70 lbs and the male, well it has been awhile since he has been on a scale. I would guess him at about 80 lbs but he is lean. When you look at them together a male is much bigger than a female. So look for a male and I am sure you will be happy!


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## deaninmn

Josh8208 said:


> I have a small gsd now and I'm looking for someone who knows of a breeder with oversized german shepherds near western pennsylvania. Of course I am still very serious about having a gsd with good temperment and health.
> 
> Any help would be great


Josh, I spent two years researching breeders looking for exactly what you're looking for, and there IS a network of dedicated breeders who specialize in big, healthy shepherds with great temperaments. I have one of the pups right now... best dog ever. He's smart and so intuitive already at 16 weeks. He's very active and athletic... big doesn't mean overweight and lazy... it just means big. PM sent.


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## onyx'girl

It doesn't mean that now at 16 weeks, but wait til he turns two and older. Will he be able to sustain exercise for longer periods, will he be agile and athletic? Will his joints be healthy?
GSD's are not supposed to be oversized! 
If you want a large dog support the breeders who are breeding Kings and Shilohs, not GSD's...


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## carmspack

or get a Leonberger.

Kings and Shilohs , since they look more or less like GSD contribute to the publics thinking that this is a good or normal or something they want size .

I get it all the time " I want a big old fashioned GSD " when they mean oversize.

How about dog sized within the standard who fills your eye with his physcially fit condition , his bearing and presence. Big does not equal power or strength. 

Carmen
http://www.carmspack


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## deaninmn

onyx'girl said:


> It doesn't mean that now at 16 weeks, but wait til he turns two and older. Will he be able to sustain exercise for longer periods, will he be agile and athletic? Will his joints be healthy?
> GSD's are not supposed to be oversized!
> If you want a large dog support the breeders who are breeding Kings and Shilohs, not GSD's...


The older dogs... routinely 12 years old... are as strong and active as ever. This breeder breeds for health and temperament... joints are good, musculature is good. Who's to say what GSDs are "supposed" to be... they're not even supposed to BE at all. Every dog that has ever been, or will ever be, is here because of man's tinkering. They are all "supposed" to be wolves! 

At $1800 a pop, you can't get a male from this breeder THIS YEAR. All spoken for. Quality not quantity.... how it should be done.


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## onyx'girl

> Who's to say was GSDs are "supposed" to be


United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club


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## Castlemaid

deaninmn said:


> Who's to say what GSDs are "supposed" to be... they're not even supposed to BE at all.


The GSD standard - describes the physical attributes and temperament traits of what a GSD is _supposed_ to be. It's not something each breeder should re-invent for themselves. 



> At $1800 a pop, you can't get a male from this breeder THIS YEAR. All spoken for. Quality not quantity.... how it should be done.


Popularity does not equal correctness. 

I'm sure you have a great dog, glad you are happy with him - but wanted to point out some common misconceptions that get bandied around a lot.


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## GSDElsa

deaninmn said:


> there IS a network of dedicated breeders who specialize in big, healthy shepherds with great temperaments.


Is this the same sort of network you'd see on Craiglist:

"Wanted: big, beautiful, funny girl to satisfy fetish of large-loving man"

:wild:

Sorry, that was highly inappropriate.


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## Kris10

GSDElsa said:


> Is this the same sort of network you'd see on Craiglist:
> 
> "Wanted: big, beautiful, funny girl to satisfy fetish of large-loving man"
> 
> :wild:
> 
> Sorry, that was highly inappropriate.


:laugh:

OMG that is hilarious!


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## deaninmn

Castlemaid said:


> The GSD standard - describes the physical attributes and temperament traits of what a GSD is _supposed_ to be. It's not something each breeder should re-invent for themselves.


THE standard? Who decides that? It's obviously changed over the years, for the worse, looking at some of the show dogs around. Sad. Probably the same group that decided that Goldens should be cream colored with puffy coats. :rolleyes2:

Reinvent? No. There have always been 100+ lb GSDs.





Castlemaid said:


> Popularity does not equal correctness.


True. Proven by the popularity of the "look" of the some of the poor shepherds who look like they are climbing out of quicksand. Or some other popular breeds which can no longer breathe normally, nor deliver their own pups. Popular, but not correct. 



Castlemaid said:


> I'm sure you have a great dog, glad you are happy with him - but wanted to point out some common misconceptions that get bandied around a lot.


But? Misconceptions? What would that be? That you can't have a healthy, smart, well-balanced, agile GSD that happens to be 30+ inches tall and over 100 lbs. Yes, that would be a misconception.


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## Kris10

deaninmn said:


> THE standard? Who decides that? It's obviously changed over the years, for the worse, looking at some of the show dogs around. Sad. Probably the same group that decided that Goldens should be cream colored with puffy coats. :rolleyes2:


No...the standard hasn't changed. 
So what you are saying is because others have bred dogs toward an extreme, they are wrong because of it, but it is okay for someone else to breed towards a different extreme and that would be fine. :thinking:


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## deaninmn

Kris10 said:


> No...the standard hasn't changed.
> So what you are saying is because others have bred dogs toward an extreme, they are wrong because of it, but it is okay for someone else to breed towards a different extreme and that would be fine. :thinking:


What I am saying is ... there's always been 100+ lb shepherds. Strong, proportionate, agile... just bigger. You cannot say the same thing about some others as far as back angles, stance, and gait. Those things are part of breeding for a "look", with little regard to anything else.


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## Lucy Dog

deaninmn said:


> What I am saying is ... there's always been 100+ lb shepherds. Strong, proportionate, agile... just bigger. You cannot say the same thing about some others as far as back angles, stance, and gait. Those things are part of breeding for a "look", with little regard to anything else.


Those things are ok to breed for because that's what a GSD is supposed to be according to the standard. These 100+ dogs that you're talking about are NOT what the breed is supposed to be. 

What's the point of even having a standard if no one follows it? Why is it ok for breeders to purposely breed for a dog that is not what the breed calls for... Because there's a certain market that this appeals to?

If you want an oversized dog that resembles a GSD than get a Shiloh or a king Shepherd. Don't sit here and say it's ok for breeders to be purposely breeding outside the standard as a good thing just because a certain market will pay for it.


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## codmaster

deaninmn said:


> THE standard? Who decides that? *You could look this up and find this out very easily!*
> 
> It's obviously changed over the years, for the worse, looking at some of the show dogs around. Sad. Probably the same group that decided that Goldens should be cream colored with puffy coats. :rolleyes2:
> 
> Reinvent? No. There have always been 100+ lb GSDs. *And many other GSDs that do not match the GSD standard in other ways as well - missing teeth, fallen ears, no testicles, under/over bite, all kinds of things.*
> 
> *You are correct! There have always been people who either are ignorant of the GSD standard, unable to understand it enough to breed to it, or don't give a **[email protected]#$** about it, or maybe just figure that THEY are smarter than anybody else and will come up with their own vision of what the GSD should be!*
> 
> True. Proven by the popularity of the "look" of the some of the poor shepherds who look like they are climbing out of quicksand. Or some other popular breeds which can no longer breathe normally, nor deliver their own pups. Popular, but not correct.
> 
> But? Misconceptions? What would that be? That you can't have a healthy, smart, well-balanced, agile GSD that happens to be 30+ inches tall and over 100 lbs. Yes, that would be a misconception.


*You appear to be quite the expert in mis-conceptions!*


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## deaninmn

Lucy Dog said:


> Those things are ok to breed for because that's what a GSD is supposed to be according to the standard. These 100+ dogs that you're talking about are NOT what the breed is supposed to be.
> 
> What's the point of even having a standard if no one follows it? Why is it ok for breeders to purposely breed for a dog that is not what the breed calls for... Because there's a certain market that this appeals to?
> 
> If you want an oversized dog that resembles a GSD than get a Shiloh or a king Shepherd. Don't sit here and say it's ok for breeders to be purposely breeding outside the standard as a good thing just because a certain market will pay for it.


Oh I see, so if enough people get together and decide that a certain look should be the "standard", regardless of what physical damage it does to the breed, then that's ok?

And yes, what IS the point of having a standard, when it has changed over the years. The champion shepherds of today are smaller and more angulated than they were 50-60 years ago. When did that become ok?


----------



## Emoore

deaninmn said:


> Oh I see, so if enough people get together and decide that a certain look should be the "standard", regardless of what physical damage it does to the breed, then that's ok?


 People can't just get together and change the standard. 



deaninmn said:


> And yes, what IS the point of having a standard, when it has changed over the years. The champion shepherds of today are smaller and more angulated than they were 50-60 years ago. When did that become ok?


The standard hasn't changed. People's interpretations have changed. The judges' interpretations have changed. Just like "separate but equal" schools used to be the accepted interpretation of the Constitution, but now it's been re-interpreted. Sometimes the interpretations are wrong.


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## GSDElsa

deaninmn said:


> Oh I see, so if enough people get together and decide that a certain look should be the "standard", regardless of what physical damage it does to the breed, then that's ok?
> 
> And yes, what IS the point of having a standard, when it has changed over the years. The champion shepherds of today are smaller and more angulated than they were 50-60 years ago. When did that become ok?


Um, no. GSD's most definitely have NOT gotten smaller in structure. That's pure BS, sorry. The stuff fables are made out of. More angulated? Not in working lines. 

And yes...if enough people of authority get together and decide that X is the standard of the breed, then it should be abided by. If you and your "big and beautiful" breeders network don't like it...feel free to start a new breed. But hate to break it to ya...standard hasn't changed much.

The GSD is supposed to be an all-around working dog...able to do just about anything. A 115 pound heffer is not going to fit that.


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## Lucy Dog

deaninmn said:


> And yes, what IS the point of having a standard, when it has changed over the years. The champion shepherds of today are smaller and more angulated than they were 50-60 years ago. When did that become ok?


Lol... They're (the show lines) definitely more angulated, but I'd love to see some proof showing that today's champions are smaller than they used to be.

If anything, I'd think it would be the complete opposite...


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## codmaster

deaninmn said:


> Oh I see, so if enough people get together and decide that a certain look should be the "standard", regardless of what physical damage it does to the breed, then that's ok?
> 
> And yes, what IS the point of having a standard, when it has changed over the years. The champion shepherds of today are smaller and more angulated than they were 50-60 years ago. When did that become ok?


Just to ask- Have you ever read the GSD standard? Either the SV or the GSDCS one?

Do you know ANYTHING about the history of the breed?

If you wanted to have a LITTLE dog, would you think it's a good idea to start with a Mastiff and just select the smallest ones to breed to get to your 20lb dog?

Or maybe even you could see that if you wanted a smaller dog, just select a breed originally that is the size that you want?????

*If you really want a giant dog, leave the GSD alone!* It is a Medium sized dog and must remain that way, if it is to be the dog it was intended to be and be able to do all of the tasks that it can do today.

BTW, talk to a S&R owner of a GSD and ask them if they would like the GSD to be 100+ dog - do you know (or evidently care!) that the S&R people sometimes have to lift and carry their dogs on some missions?

Can you carry your 100+ GSD very far? Would you want to?


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## codmaster

*deaninmn* (One question - are you by some token just pulling our legs? No one could really be that ignorant of the real show situation and then be so publicly demonstrating it, could they? I got to admit that you had me going for a while.)

Just in case!

Have you ever been to a conformation dog show? It truly doesn't sound it, at least from a US or Canadian 
standpoint. You should treat yourself to a couple of shows to see what the situation is currently in the ring today.

Many if not most of the Specials class are oversize themselves. A standard sized dog is at a competetive disadvantage in the show ring today.


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## deaninmn

Emoore said:


> People can't just get together and change the standard.
> 
> 
> 
> The standard hasn't changed. People's interpretations have changed. The judges' interpretations have changed. Just like "separate but equal" schools used to be the accepted interpretation of the Constitution, but now it's been re-interpreted. Sometimes the interpretations are wrong.



Sometimes the interpretations are wrong.... agree. And when judges' interpretations change, unfortunately that does change the standard. The breeders are trying to please the judges, right?


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## codmaster

deaninmn said:


> Sometimes the interpretations are wrong.... agree. And when judges' interpretations change, unfortunately *that does change the standard*. The breeders are trying to please the judges, right?


 
*NO!* *It doesn't change the standard*. As someone already mentioned here, the standard has to be interpreted - that can change and does to some degree by every judge!


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## Franksmom

codmaster said:


> *NO!* *It doesn't change the standard*. As someone already mentioned here, the standard has to be interpreted - that can change and does to some degree by every judge!


So the standard doesn't change that I get, but the way the judges interpret it, and the dogs they judge as best, can make breeders breed towards what is winning in the ring.


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## onyx'girl

What is winning in the ring is not showing the total GSD, either. So those that are breeding for the judges are doing a disservice to the breed as well. They are a working breed, not a breed that is just conformation special.


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## codmaster

So who do we blame? The Judges who give their own interpretation (like so many on this forum!) OR the breeders who breed to match the judges wrong interpretation?

Or the breeders who breed to THEIR own interpretation of what the GSD breed should be?


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## Franksmom

I guess for me it comes down to what I think the GSD is and the line that gives me that pup, I'm not a breeder or judge so I just have to pick the pup that fits in wth my life best.


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## Franksmom

onyx'girl said:


> What is winning in the ring is not showing the total GSD, either. So those that are breeding for the judges are doing a disservice to the breed as well. They are a working breed, not a breed that is just conformation special.


agree


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## deaninmn

codmaster said:


> So who do we blame? The Judges who give their own interpretation (like so many on this forum!) OR the breeders who breed to match the judges wrong interpretation?
> 
> Or the breeders who breed to THEIR own interpretation of what the GSD breed should be?


Breeders are influenced by judges, and enabled by customers looking for what has been deemed "champions" by judges. Ultimately, it's the breeders responsibility to protect the integrity of the animal. I don't see how breeding shepherds to the point of deformity has anything to do with integrity. 

Truth be told, I could not care less about show rings, champions, titles, whatever. I wanted a german shepherd that would be strong, healthy, smart, protective, and long-lived. I detest the deformed, frog look that some have. To me, that is animal abuse. As he lives in our house, he also needs to have manners, and get along with people and other dogs. I found a breeder that breeds for all of these things... they also just happen to be larger than "standard". So what, I don't care if they're 3 or 4 inches taller than the "standard"... I don't care if they're 10-20 pounds heavier than the "standard". For everyone that's looking for a good, solid, well-balanced family dog, I will refer them to breeder(s) that I found. 

My Max is a purebred german shepherd, with all of the traits that make shepherds such excellent dogs. I really didn't expect to have to defend him, and his breeder, from this stuff.


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## Castlemaid

dean, when people are saying that oversized, soft, low energy GSDs don't meet the standard, they are not defending what the show dog has become - many don't believe that those are correct either. 

The GSD is meant to be a medium sized, very versatile working breed, as per the standard. Neither the breeders of extreme hock-walking show dogs, nor breeders of oversized, low-drive, teddy-bear dogs are breeding true to the standard, and that is a shame.


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## Samba

As I always say in these discussions....two wrongs don't make a right in the breed.


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## BlackthornGSD

I always see the title of this thread and get this flash of the Jolly Green Giant with handfuls of puppies....


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## deaninmn

Castlemaid said:


> dean, when people are saying that oversized, soft, low energy GSDs don't meet the standard, they are not defending what the show dog has become - many don't believe that those are correct either.
> 
> The GSD is meant to be a medium sized, very versatile working breed, as per the standard. Neither the breeders of extreme hock-walking show dogs, nor breeders of oversized, low-drive, teddy-bear dogs are breeding true to the standard, and that is a shame.


I understand, but my dog was being dissed... a person tends to go on the offense.  If I read this right, the standard male should be no more than 25.6 in and 88 lbs. To me, that's not a medium sized dog, that's a large dog. So, physically, while a 29-30 in , 100-120 pound dog is larger, I think it's a little unfair to generalize them all as soft, teddy bears. You weren't there when we pulled into the yard to pick up Max! The boys in the kennel were loud, and on the job! And if the result is a bit of a softer personality, then what's so bad about that? The vast majority of shepherds, I believe, are living in situations like ours, where they make much better family members that way. Like you said, German Shepherds are THE all-around, do-everything dog... maybe in this day and age, that means a more family-oriented animal. Is it possible that these dogs could be an improvement? Bigger, stronger, not as hyper... for us it is.... the perfect dog.


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## Emoore

deaninmn said:


> Is it possible that these dogs could be an improvement?


Improvement over the working dog the breed was meant to be? Not a chance in .


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## BlackthornGSD

Sounds like you're describing a mastiff--low energy, low drive, big.


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## codmaster

deaninmn said:


> I understand, but my dog was being dissed... a person tends to go on the offense.  If I read this right, the standard male should be no more than 25.6 in and 88 lbs. To me, that's not a medium sized dog, that's a large dog. So, physically, while a 29-30 in , 100-120 pound dog is larger, I think it's a little unfair to generalize them all as soft, teddy bears. You weren't there when we pulled into the yard to pick up Max! The boys in the kennel were loud, and on the job! And if the result is a *bit of a softer personality*, then what's so bad about that? The vast majority of shepherds, I believe, are living in situations like ours, where they make much better family members that way. Like you said, German Shepherds are THE all-around, do-everything dog... maybe in this day and age, that means a more family-oriented animal. Is it possible that these dogs could be an improvement? Bigger, stronger, not as hyper... for us it is.... the perfect dog.


How many of the oversize GSD's are out working - K9, Sch, S&R, Seeing Eye, or how about herding? You really think that such an oversize dog could do this type of work?

If you want a different dog than the standard GSD, why not pick a different dog?

BTW, if you want to know what the GSD should be - Try reading the standard! - either SV or AKC and then you will KNOW what the GSD should be - mental and physical characteristics. Just in case you don't want to bother. the AKC standard calls for a male to be 24"-26" and a female should be 22"-24" at the withers (shoulder!).

BTW2 - no one here was picking on your dog! Most of us have had or have GSD's that do not really live up to the standard! Just that we know enough recognize that fact and don't think that the standard should change to reflect what we may like in a GSD.


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## Lin

Emoore said:


> Improvement over the working dog the breed was meant to be? Not a chance in .


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Samba

A German Shepherd of smaller size makes a great family member too if properly bred. Nothing to be gained there on the size front. Some of the worst examples of GSDs are all barking like mad in their kennels...on the job, like a Yorkie perhaps? Hard to say from alert barking. But, sure there are so many ways the GSD is warped out in different breeding niches that the overly large bunch is not alone. I just can't think of any advantage they hold except perhaps they eat less kibble?


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## Lucy Dog

BlackthornGSD said:


> Sounds like you're describing a mastiff--low energy, low drive, big.


Yup.... that sounds about right. 

And to Dean... why did you pick the german shepherd breed if you don't seem to like anything that the breed stands for and should be? If you wanted a big, powerful guard dog... why choose a GSD? There are plenty of other breeds out there that seemed more to what you were looking for... rott, mastiff, etc. What made you pick this breed


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## RubyTuesday

Actually the standard has changed repeatedly regarding size, color & coat. IMO, none of those changes has served the breed well except for the recent change which once again permits long stock coats.

In the early days of the breed there were large, including very large, GSD within the breed that were well regarded & used extensively in breeding. It's sad that good GSD are excluded based solely on such criteria as coat length, color or size.

There are oversized GSD that work in SAR, LE, & as guide dogs, therapy dogs & assistance dogs. They are as varied & versatile as the standard sized GSD.

Deaninmn, please pm me with additional info on your pup & the breeder.


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## martemchik

When people talk about soft oversized GSDs they are stereotyping from what is seen in most of them. Like the Shiloh and King which have other breeds in them that produce such temperments. Your dog might have a great "standard" temper but the truth of the matter is that most don't. I saw a 140 lb GSD a few weeks ago, not even close to standard temper, and the owners were so proud of how big he was, when he could hardly walk much less do what the breed is designed for.


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## Lucy Dog

martemchik said:


> When people talk about soft oversized GSDs they are stereotyping from what is seen in most of them. Like the Shiloh and King which have other breeds in them that produce such temperments. Your dog might have a great "standard" temper but the truth of the matter is that most don't. I saw a 140 lb GSD a few weeks ago, not even close to standard temper, and the owners were so proud of how big he was, when he could hardly walk much less do what the breed is designed for.


I think a lot of it has to do with the typical American way of thinking... Bigger = better. A 140 pound GSD is just absurd no matter what it's temperament is.


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## RubyTuesday

I dislike excessively soft temperaments & lazy, inert dogs regardless of size. Admittedly, these faults/problems are more prevalent in American companion lines than WL. However, there are WL breeders who brag that NOBODY but NOBODY can put a hand on their WL GSD including the vet. This is even with the owner there. Frankly that attitude amazes & amuses me. I can't imagine yielding such control to the dog & taking pride in how 'tough' s/he is! Such behavior speaks more to an owner's weakness IMO than to a dog's 'toughness' & is even more absurd than a 140lb dog of any breed. 

WL that are excessively sharp, inappropriately aggressive, lacking discernment or temperamentally unsuited as companions are IMO even more problematic than a soft &/or fat &/or lazy oversized companion GSD. In fact, I'd think they'd bother the WL afficianadoes a great deal more than anything in the companion lines since these are the GS they're interested in.


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## onyx'girl

I don't see this in any working line I am around. They are all approachable and very biddable.
And really, I don't see this with the owners either. 
Are you talking of European breeders or those in the US? I don't know of any WL breeders that boast that....


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## Lin

I'm reminded again of who pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are extreme breeders in another type doesn't mean its a good excuse for using extreme breeding in your chosen type.


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## tierra nuestra

martemchik said:


> When people talk about soft oversized GSDs they are stereotyping from what is seen in most of them. Like the Shiloh and King which have other breeds in them that produce such temperments. Your dog might have a great "standard" temper but the truth of the matter is that most don't. I saw a 140 lb GSD a few weeks ago, not even close to standard temper, and the owners were so proud of how big he was, when he could hardly walk much less do what the breed is designed for.


alot of showlines aren't that hot either when it comes to walking and agility and they are in the" current standard"
I think peoples evaluations on size are overblown.And to critique all these larger dogs and not critique alot of the dogs that supposedly conform to the standard is hypocritical and biased to say the least.I believe at this stage of the game with shepherds,everyone should come under the same scrutiny as all types of lines have their fair share of issues.
And for the record,Oso my male is a good 100 pounds plus and he works sheep and has amazing agility and stamina,more so than my small female who conforms exactly to the current akc standard.
Weight / height / muscle tone, to a point should not be seen as dysfunction as long as its proportianate to the individual dog and the job required of it.
And from what I understood from the lineage of the gsd,there were dogs thrown into the breedings from the size of a spitz to the size range of the large pyrenees type sheep dog.
Now people claim that a shepherd should not be that large because it inhibits its ability for function.Function for what exactly?How many owners use their gsd for the original intended purpose?Not many.But most people have now come to the conclusion that shepherds really do not have their original intended purpose anymore due to sheep farmers no longer being as prevelant as they once were.So if the original function is no longer there,why is there such controversy about size conformation?When all along there has been large shepherds in the breeds history?
I see less of an issue with a large straight back shepherd with ofa's/pennhip in the excellent range,with herding instinct intact and a strong unshakable temperment than a showline with overangulation,cowhocked,shy/fearful and bad over bite,hare foot and over long sickle tail and not a chance in **** being able to actually herd an animal(not just chase it around and bark at it due to the little bit of prey drive remaining in its genetics)But it has the right shoulder height,right flashy colour and the right handler on the end of the leash and of course,"the" reputable breeder/kennel on their papers from whence they came.


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## tierra nuestra

onyx'girl said:


> I don't see this in any working line I am around. They are all approachable and very biddable.
> And really, I don't see this with the owners either.
> Are you talking of European breeders or those in the US? I don't know of any WL breeders that boast that....


I believe there was a discussion about the world famous tieterhook sp? and the infamous video of showing mislabelled food drive?to say that there is none?hhhmmm....


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## Emoore

tierra nuestra said:


> alot of showlines aren't that hot either when it comes to walking and agility and they are in the" current standard"
> I think peoples evaluations on size are overblown.And to critique all these larger dogs and not critique alot of the dogs that supposedly conform to the standard is hypocritical and biased to say the least


You must not hang around very much if you haven't seen some of the harsh things that are said about show lines here.

I think part of the reason the big dogs get picked on so much is that every other week some new person starts a thread wanting a 100lb and up GSD. It's very rare that someone comes in here saying that what they really want is a dog to win at specialty shows.


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## Castlemaid

The issue about size is not the size of the dogs in and off itself - of course there are big GSDs out there, around the 100lbs range that are working in all types of environment and being wonderful family companions too - the issue is breeding _for_ size over other traits. I don't care how much the dog weighs, it is but a number on the scale, as long as the breeder is conscientious about maintaining and carrying on the abilities, health, temperament, drives and just plain awesomeness of the GSD. 

When I go to a breeder's website, there is a big difference between breeders who breed for working ability and those who breed for size to appeal to the general public. 

If the breeder's site can show me dogs of their breeding that ARE working in law enforcement, SAR, earning Schutzhund and obedience titles and so on, and they can go on and on about their lines, and what they are breeding for, and what strenghts each mating pair brings to the union, that is one thing. From those breedings, sure, you can have a dog on the large side, but that is NOT what the main focus of the breeding was, and the accomplishements of the dogs proves it to me. 

Then you go the website of a breeder of large oversized GSDs, and each dog is labeled with their weight in pounds, as if that alone makes the dog an outstanding example of a GSD, and the biggest selling point is that they make cute puppies. Breedings to appeal to the masses, and not breedings that were designed to maintain and preserve the unique talents and work drives of the breed. THAT is what bothers me about "oversized" breeders - and the heavier their dogs, the more they can brag about the dog's weight. 

Very sad,


----------



## RubyTuesday

I've seen a couple (American breeders) in just the last few months. Is it all? Absolutely not. It's not even most but they are most definitely out there, admired by some & largely tolerated by almost everyone. That kind of temperament appalling, IMO. Someone I know has old fashioned (pre/non AKC) Anatolians which are a truly serious guard dog. His Anatolians are definitely approachable & fully under his control when he's with them. They are aloof, calmly alert, but never hostile when he's with them & will tolerate petting, stroking from anyone he allows. Tough minded, powerful dogs but fully under the owner's control.

Lin, I don't see it as an 'excuse'. I don't really give an unholy ratz patoot what breeders of any type do provided they don't abuse dogs. I'm gonna get the dogs that suit me. However, I'm baffled that these oversized GSDs, which they largely have no interest in, have people in an uproar while they turn a blind eye to what is done with dogs they do (or should) care about.


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## tierra nuestra

Emoore said:


> You must not hang around very much if you haven't seen some of the harsh things that are said about show lines here.
> 
> I think part of the reason the big dogs get picked on so much is that every other week some new person starts a thread wanting a 100lb and up GSD. It's very rare that someone comes in here saying that what they really want is a dog to win at specialty shows.


I am actually on a bit,just wanted to make a point about bashing big dogs and little dogs should go hand in hand.Its sad that both sizes are becoming a tragedy and wondering what people and breeders are going to do to fix it?Unity could go a long ways in starting a solution,education and awarness and have people come in with an unbias view.Like I mentioned before, it takes alot of courage and character to admit when your wrong.Breeders need to be able to to take a step back and say"Ya know,sales are declining,dogs are dying to soon,theres alot of critisism,health in my dogs isn't so hot,too many vet trips,genetic issues are popping up everywhere,the dog no longer resembles anything of the original.....maybe I should re evaluate what I'm breeding and producing and why" and god forbid listen to anothers perspective and out take on things and not just parrot so many others beliefs before.
Like I said it takes alot of guts to step outside the norm and do things different.a little off the original topic but along the same lines......
Stop stroking egos and being all clique and elite in shows and clubs and maybe attendance and participation in the breed will come up.Stop alot of the intimidation and have an open house attitude and be more available and get fresh blood in.That goes for the dogs and people.Give more different types a chance,people may be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## tierra nuestra

Castlemaid said:


> The issue about size is not the size of the dogs in and off itself - of course there are big GSDs out there, around the 100lbs range that are working in all types of environment and being wonderful family companions too - the issue is breeding _for_ size over other traits. I don't care how much the dog weighs, it is but a number on the scale, as long as the breeder is conscientious about maintaining and carrying on the abilities, health, temperament, drives and just plain awesomeness of the GSD.
> 
> When I go to a breeder's website, there is a big difference between breeders who breed for working ability and those who breed for size to appeal to the general public.
> 
> If the breeder's site can show me dogs of their breeding that ARE working in law enforcement, SAR, earning Schutzhund and obedience titles and so on, and they can go on and on about their lines, and what they are breeding for, and what strenghts each mating pair brings to the union, that is one thing. From those breedings, sure, you can have a dog on the large side, but that is NOT what the main focus of the breeding was, and the accomplishements of the dogs proves it to me.
> 
> Then you go the website of a breeder of large oversized GSDs, and each dog is labeled with their weight in pounds, as if that alone makes the dog an outstanding example of a GSD, and the biggest selling point is that they make cute puppies. Breedings to appeal to the masses, and not breedings that were designed to maintain and preserve the unique talents and work drives of the breed. THAT is what bothers me about "oversized" breeders - and the heavier their dogs, the more they can brag about the dog's weight.
> 
> Very sad,


true but then you get some working line sites that drive it into you that their dogs are all about how hard they bite,how sharp, and yes brag about how well they do at one particular thing as well.Not how well rounded their dogs are in all attributes.So I mean it goes both ways as I stated before.How is it different for a WL versus oversize classic doing the exact same thing in their breeding program?


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## onyx'girl

Lin said:


> I'm reminded again of who pointed out, two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are extreme breeders in another type doesn't mean its a good excuse for using extreme breeding in your chosen type.


agreed!


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## Samba

> When I go to a breeder's website, there is a big difference between breeders who breed for working ability and those who breed for size to appeal to the general public.


I think it is this thing that I see. It is like "special colors" or "special size".....not. These often look to be an attempt to attract general pet buyers to go for this something extra that really is not. 

I have owned GSDs that grew to be above the standard, I have those who barely made the standard. I just don't know how to relate to talking about size as anything that was more than incidental, really. Or if I was breeding, something to correct for in next generations as needed.


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## onyx'girl

tierra nuestra said:


> I believe there was a discussion about the world famous tieterhook sp? and the infamous video of showing mislabelled food drive?to say that there is none?hhhmmm....


I saw it, yes, one breeder will spoil everyone's opinion?hhhmmmm....
One thing that still bugs me is the ads on e-bay or kiji/whatever, it is so easy for the ones that do no research to plug in big gsd or working gsd in their search engine and have the ads pop up with doing no more research. 
They know what they think they "want" but don't know really about the breed and what is the actual standard within the breed/ temperament and structure. So they go with the best site that appeals...I find that very sad and it just adds to the downfall of the breed, IMO.


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## Samba

Maybe Tiekerhook could advertise special eating German Shepherds...those for food trainers or "never have to post on a board again that your GSD won't eat!"


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## RubyTuesday

Jane, there's more than 1 breeder. For that matter who said that one (or more) such breeders spoiled everyone's opinion? I don't see where anyone said anything remotely like that.

Plug in GSD guard dogs, personal protection dogs or SchH & ads come popping up targeted to exploit peoples' fears & insecurities or stroke their egos at the notion of having the ultimate in tough dogs. Should WL GSD be arbitrarily dismissed b/c of the abundance of this manipulative advertising? Plug in almost anything, dog related or not, & you'll get both dross & gold.

There have been members who posted they want over the top prey monsters. A member who was proud her dog frequently bit her(hard) & even bit her neighbor(hard). Members looking for black sables. None of these preferences engender a slew of lectures about the correct temperament or 'balance' or choosing based on irrelevancies. A preference for a large GSD doesn't mean that's all the person looks for or cares about. It doesn't even mean that's the primary concern.

I like 'em big, specifically tall & lean, but if I couldn't get the requisite temperament, health & longevity in an oversized GSD I'd have opted for a WL GSD that met my requirements. IF those requirements could only be met in a smaller GSD I'd have opted for that. Yeah, I like 'em big but I need 'em stable, healthy, discerning, clear headed & preferably long lived.


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## RubyTuesday

Samba, I realize you're joking, but it bothers me to see how many people have GSDs that need to be bribed to eat...Or GSDs that respond poorly to training...GSDs with practically non-existent recalls despite extensive training. GSDs that react rather than think. GSDs that lack judgment. In any size, these are very real problems, & are the anti-thesis of the breed.


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## onyx'girl

Ruby Tuesday, you are versed in the breed....the downfall is those that aren't and just go with a clik of their mouse to do the research for them. I find that sad. 
I have two that are on the top end of the spectrum size-wise. My female is not real agile, but she is athletic, & a great herder. My male is very athletic/agile and both can go, go, go or shut off when needed. 

I agree, if they aren't healthy in mind and body there is nothing that appeals to me to want to share my life regardless of their size. 
Researching the actual standards of the breed before supporting those that breed them is so important. If people are just buying what appeals to them at the moment, they aren't supporting the breed guidelines and what it stands for, regardless of _which_ lines.


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## Lucy Dog

Castlemaid said:


> The issue about size is not the size of the dogs in and off itself - of course there are big GSDs out there, around the 100lbs range that are working in all types of environment and being wonderful family companions too - the issue is breeding _for_ size over other traits. I don't care how much the dog weighs, it is but a number on the scale, as long as the breeder is conscientious about maintaining and carrying on the abilities, health, temperament, drives and just plain awesomeness of the GSD.


Well said and agreed 100%! This is exactly what should be said every time this issue comes up and people start going back and forth. 

The problem is not with the dogs who end up bigger than the standard. Playing with genetics is a tricky game - bigger than the standard dogs can and do pop up. 

It's the breeders who breed specifically for that large size and disregard everything (temperament, health checks, pedigree, etc) else that becomes the issue here. When breeders specifically put more regard on size and disregard everything else, you're taking away from what the breed should be.



RubyTuesday said:


> Samba, I realize you're joking, but it bothers me to see how many people have GSDs that need to be bribed to eat...Or GSDs that respond poorly to training...GSDs with practically non-existent recalls despite extensive training. GSDs that react rather than think. GSDs that lack judgment. In any size, these are very real problems, & are the anti-thesis of the breed.


In my experience, you see this is any breed. This isn't just a GSD thing... sounds more like a poor training or temperament thing.


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## Samba

Yes, it is the lop-sided breedings that are the issue. I know of a couple of large GSD males who are great dogs with nice drives for police work. They are extra big guys and it happen. For sure their height will never be an alluring line in an ad or on a website. There would no difficulty that I can see in finding a large dog without the Lane Bryant breeders. 

There are many things that pull the breed off center....show, sport, colors, sizes etc. There will always be dogs more for doing this versus that or for appealing to a specific market. 

I really have come to accept it all and get a bit of a chuckle most of the time. 


"I have always felt that laughter in the face of reality is probably the finest sound there is and will last until the day when the game is called on account of darkness. In this world, a good time to laugh is any time you can" 
— Linda Ellerbee


Big dogs, little dogs, dogs who like to bite... Tough dogs, whimpy dogs and even dogs with appetite...


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## Debbieg

This is a very good thread with too many good quotes to requote them all I wish everyone considering a GSD would spend time on this forum first. People often ask me if they can breed their GSD to Benny without even asking me about Benny’s health or temperament. They do not understand when I try to explain why, as much as I love him, Benny will not be bred.
It is my understanding that GSD’s are not meant to be extreme in anything; size, drives, conformation. They are meant to be “jack of all trades, master of none” The are not meant to be couch potatoes. I would stay away from any breeder who breeds for extremes in sport, protection, temperament or size. For everything you gain something is lost and I don’t think you can breed for extreme in one trait without compromising other aspects of the breed standard. 
I know it can be subjective because what one person call high drive another many see as medium or even low.
Might a pup considered pet quality because of lower drives in a littler of pups bred for sport might be closer to the standard? A pup from the same litter sold a to a pet home because of a retained testicle may have such high drives that it climbs the drapes.
I think people need to first ask themselves what they truly want in a dog they will live with for the next , hopefully 14 years. If the answer does not meet the GSD standard then find a dog that does fit their dream, but don’t try to make a GSD into something other that the standard.

I got my first GSD in 1968 at age 14. He was 95-100 pounds but no one said he was over sized. I showed him in local shows 3 times and he placed all three times. I trained him through park ob classes, never needed anything but a flat collar. He was happy with just a long walk or run and a game of fetch each day as long as he got to hang out with me. He actually got out one day, went about a mile to my high school and found me! He was very protective, when necessary but didn’t explode at everyone who came over. He lived to be 14. I don’t have a picture of him handy but do have a picture of his sire and dam from the pdb. Would they be considered breedworthy today or over sized?
CH (US) Falko von Celler Schloss - German shepherd dog
Robin of Nikral - German shepherd dog


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## Doc

Debbieg said:


> This is a very good thread with too many good quotes to requote them all I wish everyone considering a GSD would spend time on this forum first. People often ask me if they can breed their GSD to Benny without even asking me about Benny’s health or temperament. They do not understand when I try to explain why, as much as I love him, Benny will not be bred.
> It is my understanding that GSD’s are not meant to be extreme in anything; size, drives, conformation. They are meant to be “jack of all trades, master of none” The are not meant to be couch potatoes. I would stay away from any breeder who breeds for extremes in sport, protection, temperament or size. For everything you gain something is lost and I don’t think you can breed for extreme in one trait without compromising other aspects of the breed standard.
> I know it can be subjective because what one person call high drive another many see as medium or even low.
> Might a pup considered pet quality because of lower drives in a littler of pups bred for sport might be closer to the standard? A pup from the same litter sold a to a pet home because of a retained testicle may have such high drives that it climbs the drapes.
> I think people need to first ask themselves what they truly want in a dog they will live with for the next , hopefully 14 years. If the answer does not meet the GSD standard then find a dog that does fit their dream, but don’t try to make a GSD into something other that the standard.
> 
> I got my first GSD in 1968 at age 14. He was 95-100 pounds but no one said he was over sized. I showed him in local shows 3 times and he placed all three times. I trained him through park ob classes, never needed anything but a flat collar. He was happy with just a long walk or run and a game of fetch each day as long as he got to hang out with me. He actually got out one day, went about a mile to my high school and found me! He was very protective, when necessary but didn’t explode at everyone who came over. He lived to be 14. I don’t have a picture of him handy but do have a picture of his sire and dam from the pdb. Would they be considered breedworthy today or over sized?
> CH (US) Falko von Celler Schloss - German shepherd dog
> Robin of Nikral - German shepherd dog


Beautiful dogs from a past era - the Golden Years of German shepherds in US.


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## tierra nuestra

Debbieg said:


> This is a very good thread with too many good quotes to requote them all I wish everyone considering a GSD would spend time on this forum first. People often ask me if they can breed their GSD to Benny without even asking me about Benny’s health or temperament. They do not understand when I try to explain why, as much as I love him, Benny will not be bred.
> It is my understanding that GSD’s are not meant to be extreme in anything; size, drives, conformation. They are meant to be “jack of all trades, master of none” The are not meant to be couch potatoes. I would stay away from any breeder who breeds for extremes in sport, protection, temperament or size. For everything you gain something is lost and I don’t think you can breed for extreme in one trait without compromising other aspects of the breed standard.
> I know it can be subjective because what one person call high drive another many see as medium or even low.
> Might a pup considered pet quality because of lower drives in a littler of pups bred for sport might be closer to the standard? A pup from the same litter sold a to a pet home because of a retained testicle may have such high drives that it climbs the drapes.
> I think people need to first ask themselves what they truly want in a dog they will live with for the next , hopefully 14 years. If the answer does not meet the GSD standard then find a dog that does fit their dream, but don’t try to make a GSD into something other that the standard.
> 
> I got my first GSD in 1968 at age 14. He was 95-100 pounds but no one said he was over sized. I showed him in local shows 3 times and he placed all three times. I trained him through park ob classes, never needed anything but a flat collar. He was happy with just a long walk or run and a game of fetch each day as long as he got to hang out with me. He actually got out one day, went about a mile to my high school and found me! He was very protective, when necessary but didn’t explode at everyone who came over. He lived to be 14. I don’t have a picture of him handy but do have a picture of his sire and dam from the pdb. Would they be considered breedworthy today or over sized?
> CH (US) Falko von Celler Schloss - German shepherd dog
> Robin of Nikral - German shepherd dog


your first gsd at 14 is the type of dog I want now.Not some long forgotten ideal of a time gone by.We had them like that once,I'm pretty sure we can have them like that again.


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## tierra nuestra

:thumbup:


RubyTuesday said:


> Jane, there's more than 1 breeder. For that matter who said that one (or more) such breeders spoiled everyone's opinion? I don't see where anyone said anything remotely like that.
> 
> Plug in GSD guard dogs, personal protection dogs or SchH & ads come popping up targeted to exploit peoples' fears & insecurities or stroke their egos at the notion of having the ultimate in tough dogs. Should WL GSD be arbitrarily dismissed b/c of the abundance of this manipulative advertising? Plug in almost anything, dog related or not, & you'll get both dross & gold.
> 
> There have been members who posted they want over the top prey monsters. A member who was proud her dog frequently bit her(hard) & even bit her neighbor(hard). Members looking for black sables. None of these preferences engender a slew of lectures about the correct temperament or 'balance' or choosing based on irrelevancies. A preference for a large GSD doesn't mean that's all the person looks for or cares about. It doesn't even mean that's the primary concern.
> 
> I like 'em big, specifically tall & lean, but if I couldn't get the requisite temperament, health & longevity in an oversized GSD I'd have opted for a WL GSD that met my requirements. IF those requirements could only be met in a smaller GSD I'd have opted for that. Yeah, I like 'em big but I need 'em stable, healthy, discerning, clear headed & preferably long lived.


:thumbup:


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## GSDElsa

RubyTuesday said:


> There have been members who posted they want over the top prey monsters. Members looking for black sables. None of these preferences engender a slew of lectures about the correct temperament or 'balance' or choosing based on irrelevancies.


I'd say that's selective reading. Obviously haven't seen the 5000 recent posts lambasting the over the top prey monsters. And color? Pfft. That's REAL selective reading. Anytime someone says they are looking for "X color" it's met by a bunch of lectures no matter what....working or show. And no matter what color.


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## Samba

To ask if a large dog would be breedworthy today? of course it could be! I know a couple of large dogs I would breed to given the opportunity. They are a bit oversize. It would just be something to consider to choosing a mate. There is always something to be considered as no dog is perfect. But, to choose an over large female to put with them so I could get large puppies to ..... There is a difference.

This breeding of large to appeal to the large loving has gone on from the beginning. Stephanitz noted its occurance and also noted the pups would often appear in the classifieds with "large" being a selling point. There is nothing new under the sun.


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## RubyTuesday

You'd say it's selective reading & I'd say you're mistaken. In this part of the world nothing pushes buttons or gets people going like those who *gasp* prefer an over sized GSD, even when it's clearly stated they are more concerned with temperament & health than size. Over the top prey monsters don't engender nearly the excitement (ire) as those who want their healthy, long lived, temperamentally sound GSD a few inches taller. For example, dog bites owner repeatedly & HARD, dog bites neighbor(HARD). This garners grins & support all around b/c the dog demonstrates strong drives but the devil take those too large dogs. 

There is indeed selective reading but I don't think I'm the one doing it. *shrug*A quick perusal of threads amply demonstrates where people's concerns & passions lie. For whatever odd reason, those opposed to over sized GSD, feel much more passionately about it than many of us that actually prefer 'em. For many of us, size is only one characteristic, & far from paramount, while the naysayers seem incapable of seeing anything beyond that single quality.


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## Franksmom

RubyTuesday said:


> You'd say it's selective reading & I'd say you're mistaken. In this part of the world nothing pushes buttons or gets people going like those who *gasp* prefer an over sized GSD, even when it's clearly stated they are more concerned with temperament & health than size. Over the top prey monsters don't engender nearly the excitement (ire) as those who want their healthy, long lived, temperamentally sound GSD a few inches taller. For example, dog bites owner repeatedly & HARD, dog bites neighbor(HARD). This garners grins & support all around b/c the dog demonstrates strong drives but the devil take those too large dogs.
> 
> There is indeed selective reading but I don't think I'm the one doing it. *shrug*A quick perusal of threads amply demonstrates where people's concerns & passions lie. For whatever odd reason, those opposed to over sized GSD, feel much more passionately about it than many of us that actually prefer 'em. For many of us, size is only one characteristic, & far from paramount, while the naysayers seem incapable of seeing anything beyond that single quality.


:thumbup:


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## Castlemaid

Well, for all of you that prefer large size, there are plenty of other breeds that fall within that category. 
Why someone wants a breed that is designed to be in the 65 to 85 lb category, BUT, because they want something different they are looking for dogs TWICE that size boggles the mind! 

If you had a dog that was that size years ago, fine, good for you! If you adopted a dog from rescue that size and he turned out perfect, great!! Double good for you! But to purposely seek out and defend breeders whose breeding focus is overly large size is not better than seeking out and defending breeders who breed "unusual" and "rare" colours as their main selling point. 

I don't recall people posting that they are looking for prey monsters - unless someone is looking for a dog with hunt drive for SAR, wich is not the same. A GSD is supposed to have prey drive, but that is not the same thing as an out-of-control dog that cannot live harmoniously in a normal household. If a person cannot handle a dog with drive, and does not know how to use a dog's drives for positive, constructive activities, then, as the saying goes, not everyone should own a GSD. And using the dog's drives does not mean the dog has to do Schutzhund or be a working police dog. It can be for fun agility, games of fetch, everyday training for good social and public behaviour.

I sometimes wonder about this obsession over large size in the GSD. My dog is turning out to be pretty big - though still within the standard for height and weight, he is pushing the upper limits. Gotta admit, I like having a large dog, so nice to have him so much closer to my level. But he didn't come from a breeder that focuses on size. He came from a breeder that strives to maintain and produce proper working temperament. The dogs from this kennel can do it all, from being a family companion, to earning Agility Championships and top Schutzhund scores. My dog hangs out with the cats, goes everywhere on a flat collar, and shows appropriate and controled strenght and "heart" in protection training, enough to impress world level Schutzhund judge/ex k9 handler and a world level competitor (who wanted to take him home). But in the end, he is still my baby that sleeps on the bed with me. 

I get tired of some people constantly spewing bile and accusing the members of this forum of a double standard. Outraged self-righteousness. inaccurate exaggerated accusations against other posters who defend the GSD for what it was designed to be, along with hyperbolic language does not do anything to lay credibility to one's claims. 

If someone wants a black and tan, we tell them to look at show-line breeders. There are show-line breeders that focus on preserving a dog's drives and working temperament. These dogs are not in the 120lb range, nor does the breeder breed for it. 

If someone is looking for a black sable, there are breeders of black sables that work and breed for working temperament. They train and title their own dogs in working venues. They are not breeding dogs to be 120lbs.

And maybe I'm getting old, but I can't recall one instance where someone came on the board looking for over-the-top, out-of-control prey monster? And 'Prey' as in prey drive is so subjective anyways. When I adopted my rescue, she was had what I thought was huge prey drive and no inner controls, to the point that I was overwhelmed and unable to deal with her. Training (for her and for me, learning about what proper drives were and how to use the drives motivate and teach) showed me that drives and the being "out-of-control" is NOT the same thing. My working line has many times the drives of my rescue, and and turns them on and off when required, and is completely responsive and obedient to me. My rescue turned out to just not have a lot of self-control, LOL, not so much over the top drives. People who _think_ drives are "bad" for a house dog just don't understand dogs. Period. (And I used to be one of them, I'm grateful for the opportunities to have moved beyond that point and open up my understanding). 

Despite the different dogs from different backgrounds and different interests of the members on this forum, I'm dedicated to trying and help the owners and their dogs to mesh and be happy together. To that aim, I try to give help, support, and advice to people in all the different forums on the board in the areas that I consider myself being somewhat experienced and knowledgeable, while trying to educate people considering a GSD about the GSD. 

So a bit ironic when the when posters whose main participation on the board is to show up once in a while to accuse others of a double standard in a self-rightous way, when these people being accused of being snobbish and anti-big dogs, are ON the board, helping and supporting and giving advice to ALL the members with pups and dogs that are all different sizes and from all backgrounds. Very ironic indeed.


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## GSDElsa

RubyTuesday said:


> You'd say it's selective reading & I'd say you're mistaken. In this part of the world nothing pushes buttons or gets people going like those who *gasp* prefer an over sized GSD, even when it's clearly stated they are more concerned with temperament & health than size. Over the top prey monsters don't engender nearly the excitement (ire) as those who want their healthy, long lived, temperamentally sound GSD a few inches taller. For example, dog bites owner repeatedly & HARD, dog bites neighbor(HARD). This garners grins & support all around b/c the dog demonstrates strong drives but the devil take those too large dogs.
> 
> There is indeed selective reading but I don't think I'm the one doing it. *shrug*A quick perusal of threads amply demonstrates where people's concerns & passions lie. For whatever odd reason, those opposed to over sized GSD, feel much more passionately about it than many of us that actually prefer 'em. For many of us, size is only one characteristic, & far from paramount, while the naysayers seem incapable of seeing anything beyond that single quality.


Gosh, really? Maybe you'd like to start with this thread and tell me what you think.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/152978-locked-prey.html

And it's definitely selective remembering or half story telling about the "dog bite" incident. If I remember this thread correctly, it was a case of the dog going for a ball reward and missing. Not aggressively attacking mom. Big difference.


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## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> You'd say it's selective reading & I'd say you're mistaken. In this part of the world nothing pushes buttons or gets people going like those who *gasp* prefer an over sized GSD, even when it's clearly stated they are more concerned with temperament & health than size. Over the top prey monsters don't engender nearly the excitement (ire) as those who want their healthy, long lived, temperamentally sound GSD a few inches taller. For example, dog bites owner repeatedly & HARD, dog bites neighbor(HARD). This garners grins & support all around b/c the dog demonstrates strong drives but the devil take those too large dogs.
> 
> There is indeed selective reading but I don't think I'm the one doing it. *shrug*A quick perusal of threads amply demonstrates where people's concerns & passions lie. For whatever odd reason, those opposed to over sized GSD, feel much more passionately about it than many of us that actually prefer 'em. For many of us, size is only one characteristic, & far from paramount, while the naysayers seem incapable of seeing anything beyond that single quality.


Hey Ruby, you are absolutely correct in saying that temperament and health are much more important in our breed than size.

This is especially true if you just want a nice pet GSD, however if you want a GSD who is capable of working and doing the job that these dogs were designed and bred for (check the standard!); then they should be the correct size as well as the correct temperament and corrct conformation! Just a fact of life!

For your added thought, please remember that non standard breeding is a slippery slope - if *you* like an "oversize" GSD - how much over the standard is enough??? If you like a 28" male GSD (ONLY 2 " oversize) what would you say to some idiot who wants a 30" or 32" male GSD? Is that "too big" to you? 34"?

There is a standard for many good reasons!


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## NancyJ

I definitely think we should support folks wanting an oversize dog to look at Kings or Shilohs. (I just hate that both groups are clear that their dogs are the "original" GSD. Sure big farm dogs were part of the original makeup of the breed but I don't think they were ever the goal)

There are some nice ones out there, though you really have to be careful

One lady on our team has two Shilohs. Both do very well at trailing though she is an excellent trainer and her dogs have working GSD stock bred in - and she breeds and trains horses and knows something about breeding - BUT - she realizes neither dog would make a good air scent or cadaver dog. 

*NOT* my cup of tea but I know what my eyes tell me and her dogs are good dogs, good nerve, steady workers.

Typically if you want a dog for any work you know the benefits of the medium sized dog - but if you get a dog for pet........and that is what you want, why not get it from people both breeding for that AND breeding for other good characteristics because sticking with a breeder who breeds oversize pure GSDs is pulling from a very limited gene pool just like breeders who breed for color, etc.


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## Castlemaid

The size limit was set for a reason. It was found to be the best all-around size that a GSD was able to perfom it's intended work as a herder, police dog, military working dog. I have talked to RCMP dog handlers, seen their dogs being worked, they are all on the smaller size, some in the 60-70 lb range (males). They say that the smaller dogs are PERFECT. They have the speed, the stamina, the agility and athletism to deal with all that is required of them. They would NOT want to have bigger dogs on patrol with them. You would think that since often their lives depends on the ability of their working k9 partner to do its job, they would want the type of dog best suited for the work, and that is NOT a behemoth of a dog.

Sure, people just want a pet - how many people here are actually looking for police dogs? But changing the GSD into a big pet dog is not doing the breed any favors, and if people call themselves GSD fans and lovers, this should be a fundemental understanding. 

Interesting how the posters that are defending the standard size-wise and drive-wise are doing so with restraint, common-sense, and passion about the _dogs_, instead of finding fault with the owners.


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## deaninmn

Like I said before, I spent a good long time searching for our new pup, and feel that we found the IDEAL dog for us. However, I discovered that, according to some here, my dog is not acceptable, and worse yet, the breeder is classified as some back yard pariah who is destroying the breed. I was asked why I would even want a GSD, when there are other breeds out there that are "bigger". Like now I have to justify my choice. And all that, because my dog is going to be 3-4 inches taller, and 20-30lbs heavier than the "standard". Oh, and of course, this ensures that he will be a couch potato, and that he will be unhealthy, and will have a short life span.  So not true.

The "why". I had a GSD when I was a kid, a loooong time ago. He was a watch dog, friendly to us, but as far as I can remember, a little harsh to strangers. My own history of dogs consist of a variety, a purebred lab, border collie cross, chessie cross, newfie cross, purebred Golden, and a GSD. The GSD, my wife picked up off of the highway. She was about 6 mos old, skinny, and had tangled with a skunk. She packed her into the family van, and proceeded into town. She had a hair appointment (everybody know that you never mess with a hair appointment!  ), so she called me at work, and I drove downtown and met her. We already had two dogs at home, so there was never any thought of keeping her. We just needed to get her to the local Humane Society, so she could get cleaned up and fed, and either reunited with her family, or find a new one. Rather than load her up in the van again... she stunk, bad... I said I would just walk her out to the HS... it was probably 1.5 miles through town. I grabbed the leash we had with, and took off. What a walk! That dog walked with me all the way, right by my leg, calm as could be. Traffic all over, dogs barking at us, squirrels crossing in front of us. What a good girl! We left her at the HS, and went home, raving about how good that dog was. You know where this is going... a week or so later, we called to check on her, to see if anyone had claimed her, or if anyone wanted to adopt her. Nope, still there. We thought we should go visit her. Yeah, right! We brought her home. Over the next few months, she filled out nicely, and turned into quite the specimen. Strong, fast... really fast, she would make our other two dogs look like they were running in sand. She was the submissive one of the pack in all areas like food, toys, attention... everything except, when someone would drive into the yard. Then, she was boss. She would puff up, and this "big dog" bark would come out... she was on the job. She was never aggressive towards anybody... she didn't have to be, the look and the bark was more than enough to command respect. Great dog, right? Sounds like a good story, right? Well, when she was about 3 years old, we noticed that she wasn't as fast as the other dogs any more. She had lost that explosive power she once had. Well, it was obvious that her hips were not good. She was laboring to run, and was having trouble getting in to the vehicles. To make a long story a little shorter, it was the beginning of downward spiral for her... physically and mentally. We tried everything, and ended up putting her down at age 8. So, as our other dogs were aging, we talked about what kind of dog we wanted next. We both agreed, a German Shepherd. We were hooked. But, we wanted to do everything possible to guarantee that we could find one that would live a long, healthy life.

The "where". I spent many months, off and on, looking at websites. We weren't exactly sure what we wanted. We did know what we didn't want. We didn't want a dog with a sloping hind end... that's just not right. No dog or wolf in nature would ever end up being built like that. We didn't want a pup from a large operation that just cranks out pups like mad. If there was no problem getting one, then they were producing too many. We did want a breeder who focused on health... hips and elbows were high priority. And temperament, we wanted what we had with Lucky... a family companion, calm and friendly, but who also would protect without a second thought. Our pup eventually came from Royalair in Iowa. Robin's breeding goals are #1 - Temperament... easy going, family dogs who are naturally alert and protective of their people. #2 - Health... hips and elbows are a priority, dogs are ofa'd, and tested for DM. #3 - Beauty and size... colorations, coats, markings, and size. She makes no bones about her dogs being oversized compared to the "standard". BUT, that's not the priority. If that was the case, they would be getting bigger and bigger and bigger. They are not. They are consistently in a range from 90-100 lb females, to 100-120 lb males. Yes, these are big dogs, but not out of the realm of what GSDs have always been. She's not creating anything new, she's just found her niche, and is perfecting it. And, imo, she has the best dogs around.


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## deaninmn

Castlemaid said:


> The size limit was set for a reason. It was found to be the best all-around size that a GSD was able to perfom it's intended work as a herder, police dog, military working dog. I have talked to RCMP dog handlers, seen their dogs being worked, they are all on the smaller size, some in the 60-70 lb range (males). They say that the smaller dogs are PERFECT. They have the speed, the stamina, the agility and athletism to deal with all that is required of them. They would NOT want to have bigger dogs on patrol with them. You would think that since often their lives depends on the ability of their working k9 partner to do its job, they would want the type of dog best suited for the work, and that is NOT a behemoth of a dog.
> 
> Sure, people just want a pet - how many people here are actually looking for police dogs? But changing the GSD into a big pet dog is not doing the breed any favors, and if people call themselves GSD fans and lovers, this should be a fundemental understanding.
> 
> Interesting how the posters that are defending the standard size-wise and drive-wise are doing so with restraint, common-sense, and passion about the _dogs_, instead of finding fault with the owners.


Our police dept had a GSD that was a bit larger than standard... best dog ever, they said. It's really pointless to claim that a few inches and a few pounds make any difference... especially as far a police dogs, sar, therapy, assistance, etc. It's about intelligence and temperament, right? Herding dogs probably would do better being smaller and lighter, but who would use GSDs for herding? ... Border Collies run circles around them.

You know, some people want different things from their GSD. That's fine. Find a breeder who provides what you want, and enjoy. It should be possible to do that, without discounting others because they fall just outside some perceived "ideal".


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## Samba

I think the breeding outside the standard and for many pretty far outside is not a great idea. I really have not seen that work well for the breed in all the places where it is done. Just because someone likes something that is an outlier does not make it a good idea to do it. 

Many people do this in other breeds too and it does not go unnoticed or uncommented on there either. Sorta comes with that outer territory I woud think.


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## Dainerra

deaninmn said:


> You know, some people want different things from their GSD. That's fine. Find a breeder who provides what you want, and enjoy. It should be possible to do that, without discounting others because they fall just outside some perceived "ideal".


how far, though, do you go outside the "ideal" before the dog is no longer a GSD? what about a GSD the size of a St Bernard? Is it still a GSD?
What about one that is smaller? After all, lots of people live in apartments and most complexes have a 45lb weight limit. Can I start breeding GSDs for apartment dwellers? 

The standard is not some vague notion - it is the history and makeup that describes what a German Shepherd *IS*. Without that ideal, then anyone could pick up any dog and declare it to be whatever breed they wanted - there would be no difference. All dogs would just be a mis-mash of characteristics. 
Sure, there is nothing wrong with a dog that is a bit outside the standard - it happens in every breeder's life. But, to breed only dogs that are outside the standard, then NO, I don't think you can be considered an ethical breeder of German Shepherd Dogs. *NOTE: *I'm not saying that you aren't an ethical breeder - you can do all the health/temperament/etc etc and breed fabulous dogs. I just don't believe that you are upholding the breed itself - a medium-sized dog, a jack of all trades who can do any job that you ask of him. 
When you say you like a certain type of dog and want to breed, then you have to breed for the entire picture. I like Golden Retrievers, they are gorgeous dogs. I don't like that they are so lovey, best friends with everyone, fall over themselves to please anyone passing on the street. Can I breed Golden Retrievers with a suspicious temperament? Would they still be GRs? No, because Goldens are meant to have a specific personality - without that, they aren't Golden Retrievers


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## NancyJ

Just call them "fred" and I am fine.


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## Jessiewessie99

If you want oversized GSD go to a shelter there are tons of them there. Well they look huge to me because I am rather short.


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## codmaster

deaninmn said:


> Our police dept had a GSD that was a bit larger than standard... best dog ever, they said. It's really pointless to claim that a few inches and a few pounds make any difference... especially as far a police dogs, sar, therapy, assistance, etc. It's about intelligence and temperament, right? Herding dogs probably would do better being smaller and lighter, but who would use GSDs for herding? ... Border Collies run circles around them.
> 
> You know, some people want different things from their GSD. That's fine. Find a breeder who provides what you want, and enjoy. It should be possible to do that, without discounting others because they fall just outside some perceived "ideal".


How about breeding GSD's without pointy stand up ears? 

Some folks I know have a GSD with ears that look more like a beagle they think they are so cute. (which they are!). No injury, just the ears never came up - do you think that they would be good candidates to breed and produce more GSD's whose ears will not stand?


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## bianca

codmaster said:


> How about breeding GSD's without pointy stand up ears?
> 
> Some folks I know have a GSD with ears that look more like a beagle they think they are so cute. (which they are!). No injury, just the ears never came up - do you think that they would be good candidates to breed and produce more GSD's whose ears will not stand?


 
Darn it, now if only I hadn't had my girl spayed! 55# soaking wet and soft ears :laugh:


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## codmaster

Heh! Heh!


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## tierra nuestra

deaninmn said:


> Our police dept had a GSD that was a bit larger than standard... best dog ever, they said. It's really pointless to claim that a few inches and a few pounds make any difference... especially as far a police dogs, sar, therapy, assistance, etc. It's about intelligence and temperament, right? Herding dogs probably would do better being smaller and lighter, but who would use GSDs for herding? ... Border Collies run circles around them.
> 
> You know, some people want different things from their GSD. That's fine. Find a breeder who provides what you want, and enjoy. It should be possible to do that, without discounting others because they fall just outside some perceived "ideal".


Well said.And yes,how many are using shepherds today to herd in a realistic view?


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## tierra nuestra

Samba said:


> I think the breeding outside the standard and for many pretty far outside is not a great idea. I really have not seen that work well for the breed in all the places where it is done. Just because someone likes something that is an outlier does not make it a good idea to do it.
> 
> Many people do this in other breeds too and it does not go unnoticed or uncommented on there either. Sorta comes with that outer territory I woud think.


so breeding dogs with no hips,elbows,instinct,temperment is preferable to a gsd which conforms to all ideals except it is a bit heavier or slightly taller?I'm not talking super size mammoth but within historical breed range size.The shepherd has been all over the scale in 100 years.It has not always been on the smaller side,nor has it had roach backs before 1960's or ski slope backs and such extreme hocks and stifles but these fly under the radar and are seen as acceptable at the time.
How many times has the standard been revised to suit the time and era?or has it consistently stayed faithful from the first print?


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## phgsd

Comparing border collies to GSD's in herding is like comparing apples and oranges. They have completely different styles of herding. GSD's are meant for tending large flocks. Border collies are not meant for that type of work. 
There are 2 HGH clubs in the US...I know that not many people are familiar with tending, and think that GSD's should work like border collies, but that's just not the case. Some people use them in this manner because they do not have true tending available, and some do quite well, but tending is a different ball game.

A smaller dog is not necessarily better for tending. The dogs should be athletic and quick, have the endurance and drive to work for hours, but big enough to command the respect of the sheep. A large flock of sheep would not take a very small dog seriously. GSD's within the breed standard are correct for this type of work. 

Sure...some dogs may be larger or smaller than the standard (out of normal-sized parents) but to intentionally breed for that is a different story.


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## tierra nuestra

Dainerra said:


> how far, though, do you go outside the "ideal" before the dog is no longer a GSD? what about a GSD the size of a St Bernard? Is it still a GSD?
> What about one that is smaller? After all, lots of people live in apartments and most complexes have a 45lb weight limit. Can I start breeding GSDs for apartment dwellers?
> 
> The standard is not some vague notion - it is the history and makeup that describes what a German Shepherd *IS*. Without that ideal, then anyone could pick up any dog and declare it to be whatever breed they wanted - there would be no difference. All dogs would just be a mis-mash of characteristics.
> Sure, there is nothing wrong with a dog that is a bit outside the standard - it happens in every breeder's life. But, to breed only dogs that are outside the standard, then NO, I don't think you can be considered an ethical breeder of German Shepherd Dogs. *NOTE: *I'm not saying that you aren't an ethical breeder - you can do all the health/temperament/etc etc and breed fabulous dogs. I just don't believe that you are upholding the breed itself - a medium-sized dog, a jack of all trades who can do any job that you ask of him.
> When you say you like a certain type of dog and want to breed, then you have to breed for the entire picture. I like Golden Retrievers, they are gorgeous dogs. I don't like that they are so lovey, best friends with everyone, fall over themselves to please anyone passing on the street. Can I breed Golden Retrievers with a suspicious temperament? Would they still be GRs? No, because Goldens are meant to have a specific personality - without that, they aren't Golden Retrievers


so I take it that your opinion on most showline and working breeders are unethical breeders of gsd's then?I mean can you honestly say that their type of dog can do anything thats asked of them?Right off the bat,herding instinct is almost non existant in these lines.Why?since when did a prominent showline or working line breeder paste all over their website that there dogs are herding champions and they select their dogs on their ability to perform their original intended purpose and can out herd all the competition?It does not matter that sheep herding is rare,thats what their intented purpose was for.For breeders to condone the extiction of that trait because herding is not "the in thing",well you know what?I'll quote many others,go breed or own a non sheep herding dog then.So many say "if you want a large dog,get a mastiff or something else thats large".Whats the difference?
These dogs are not jack of all trades by any means.The working line has become a seperate breed in that sense as it does shutzhund or protective work.The showline pretty much does the show circuit and may be the family pet.Unless you can honestly say the working gsd and the showline are the same type of dog?just wearing a suit in disguise?I think not.
Herding instinct has been bred out of these dog with no second thought to perserving that original trait what so ever, yet people would rather get all in arms about an extra 10-20 pounds yet turn a blind eye to that sadly extinct trait which was oh so vital to the original dog.And yet an oversize breeder is the pariah not the showline or working line.This reeks of double standards and yes hypocrisy no matter how you look at it.It seems owners and breeders will always conform things to what suits their needs or wants at a certain time.And if doesn't agree with their way,ostrasize the one who may be a bit different and swing out side the box.I am not talking about breeders who just go for size,size,size.Its the same as the breeder who goes for drive,drive,drive or colour,colour,color.There are happy mediums in all walks and for anyone to say that a larger than norm shepherd is just not right,well then they have to say that about most working and show type breeders and the dogs they produce.


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## phgsd

What makes you say that herding instinct is not present in working lines today? Have you worked with many of them in herding?

IMO - it is definitely still there in many working lines. All 4 of mine have been tested with sheep and passed, and I have trained 2 dogs now in HGH-style herding and both definitely had a lot of instinct. My first GSD did not progress because she was way too sensitive and would shut down if corrected, but the instincts were very strong. Kessy (who will be getting her HGH in October) also has really nice instincts and a great feel for the sheep. She has been a bit more challenging to train due to her high level of prey drive, but once we got that under control her herding instincts really came out.

I have heard of many other workingline dogs who have shown promise in herding. Sure - some workinglines may be so over the top in their prey drive that they may not be able to herd, but again, those are the "prey monsters" and it's been said many timse that this is not the correct GSD temperament. 

Schutzhund was brought about because the breed founder realized that sheep tending was dying out and that GSD's would need a new job. Schutzhund requires many of the same characteristics as large flock tending...drive, work ethic, intelligence, biddability, genetic obedience, courage, independence, resilience, etc. When trained and evaluated properly, both can be good indicators of breedworthiness.


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## Debbieg

tierra nuestra said:


> Herding instinct has been bred out of these dog with no second thought to perserving that original trait what so ever, .


 
Laying aside for a moment the arument about size I must say that the herding instinct is alive and well in my GSD and those I know. It is one thing that has thankfully not been bred out. They may not be actively tending flocks of sheep because many of us fo not have sheep, but you can see the string herding instinct in their behavior.

I took Benny for a herding instinct test when he had never even seen sheep and I have never seen him so alive. He knew just what to do and wanted to do it. Many GSD owners I know have the same experience.


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## GSDElsa

tierra,
The GSD was bred FROM herding dogs as the ultimate "all-around" working/utility dog. Do not confuse the two. Herding was just ONE of the many jobs that the GSD was developed to be able to do.

Max started to play around with breeding in the 1890's. Hektor was purchased in 1899. The SV was formed on April 22, 1899. *The first SchH trial was in 1901*. The first breed survey books were in the 1920's. Let's not change history here.


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## tierra nuestra

once again,how many influential ethical breeders claim their dogs are herding instinct tested and intact as a main high point to their breeding program?


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## tierra nuestra

GSDElsa said:


> tierra,
> The GSD was bred FROM herding dogs as the ultimate "all-around" working/utility dog. Do not confuse the two. Herding was just ONE of the many jobs that the GSD was developed to be able to do.
> 
> Max started to play around with breeding in the 1890's. Hektor was purchased in 1899. The SV was formed on April 22, 1899. *The first SchH trial was in 1901*. The first breed survey books were in the 1920's. Let's not change history here.


so does that make it ok then to phase out herding as one of its traits?


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## tierra nuestra

GSDElsa said:


> tierra,
> The GSD was bred FROM herding dogs as the ultimate "all-around" working/utility dog. Do not confuse the two. Herding was just ONE of the many jobs that the GSD was developed to be able to do.
> 
> Max started to play around with breeding in the 1890's. Hektor was purchased in 1899. The SV was formed on April 22, 1899. *The first SchH trial was in 1901*. The first breed survey books were in the 1920's. Let's not change history here.


as someone else stated max brought schutzhund in because sheep herding was flagging.even at that point in history,the founder probably realized that the gsd was going to be a dog that would fluctuate with the demands of the time and with it size and conformation.


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## Samba

Many behaviors exhibited in schutzhund relate to the herding character of the dog.


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## jrod

Wow, what ever happened to the OP? Their last reply was in page 4 of this thread. I hope he/she didn't get ran off due to the many replies about how wrong it is to seek out an oversized GSD.


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## phgsd

And "instinct test" does not mean much. If a breeder made a simple instinct test a main focus of their breeding program, that would be a big red flag. 

Some instinct tests just show that the dog is interested in sheep; others show that the dog has prey drive and likes to chase sheep around. That doesn't mean much.

Our herding trainer has told me that most of the dogs that come for an instinct test do not pass. Many (or all) are GSD's, mostly pet/BYB type dogs. Of the dogs that do pass (which basically just means they show interest in the sheep), most of those will not be able to maintain a border and work a graze. And most of the dogs who can work a graze will not be able to move the flock which is the last big step to getting an HGH. It takes a balance of instinct, temperament, and training to make a tending dog. And the complete picture of instincts and temperament really can't be seen from a simple instinct test. It takes a lot of time, training, and experience to get the full picture of the dog's ability. An instinct test is something fun to do with your dog, but no way should it be used as a test for breeding.

And I hate that this has gone so off topic but I'd hate for people to get the wrong idea about GSD's and herding!


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## GSDElsa

tierra nuestra said:


> as someone else stated max brought schutzhund in because sheep herding was flagging.even at that point in history,the founder probably realized that the gsd was going to be a dog that would fluctuate with the demands of the time and with it size and conformation.


Uhhhh....so I'm confused at how you can call it hypocritcal and a double standard when 2 years into the breed being official it was already NOT considered a herding breed specifically but rather a utility dog?....by the founder himself? It makes no sense.


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## Whiteshepherds

GSDElsa said:


> tierra,
> The GSD was bred FROM herding dogs as the ultimate "all-around" working/utility dog. Do not confuse the two. Herding was just ONE of the many jobs that the GSD was developed to be able to do.
> 
> Max started to play around with breeding in the 1890's. Hektor was purchased in 1899. The SV was formed on April 22, 1899. *The first SchH trial was in 1901*. The first breed survey books were in the 1920's. Let's not change history here.


The original intent was to make a great herding dog by refining and standardizing the shepherding dogs of the time. The industrialization of Germany and the decline of sheep farming are what drove Max to switch gears. *How soon that happened after the dog was developed is irrelavent, the dog started out as a herding dog. *

German Shepherd Dog= Dog of the the shepherd, not dog of the policeman.


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## tierra nuestra

phgsd said:


> What makes you say that herding instinct is not present in working lines today? Have you worked with many of them in herding?
> 
> IMO - it is definitely still there in many working lines. All 4 of mine have been tested with sheep and passed, and I have trained 2 dogs now in HGH-style herding and both definitely had a lot of instinct. My first GSD did not progress because she was way too sensitive and would shut down if corrected, but the instincts were very strong. Kessy (who will be getting her HGH in October) also has really nice instincts and a great feel for the sheep. She has been a bit more challenging to train due to her high level of prey drive, but once we got that under control her herding instincts really came out.
> 
> I have heard of many other workingline dogs who have shown promise in herding. Sure - some workinglines may be so over the top in their prey drive that they may not be able to herd, but again, those are the "prey monsters" and it's been said many timse that this is not the correct GSD temperament.
> 
> Schutzhund was brought about because the breed founder realized that sheep tending was dying out and that GSD's would need a new job. Schutzhund requires many of the same characteristics as large flock tending...drive, work ethic, intelligence, biddability, genetic obedience, courage, independence, resilience, etc. When trained and evaluated properly, both can be good indicators of breedworthiness.


Working with sheep and dogs has been our families livelihood for more than 50 years.We have worked with BC'S,BEARDIES,KELPIES,NZ HUNTAWAYS,many types of herding dogs from australia of no pure descent but were bred on massive sheep stations for their ability to herd and push and tend 10's of thousands of sheep in the harshest of extremes.My mother started with gsd's in the 50's and 60's becaused she loved the breed.But even then,they were massive failures at actually being a good sheep dog that had the ability to function.They had prey drive in plenty but that does not bode well for sheep that are flight animals when seperated from the flock.God forbid if any dog got loose at night and got in the pasture with the sheep.This is from years of hands on experience.She said that even back then the dogs that were in america were from poor stock no german wanted and was ditchd here for a reason.There is a reason sheep breeders DO NOT have shepherds of working line or showline.They have been bred by people who do not have a clue about sheep or sheep herding.Yes you may have the odd dog who has some intact instict but that is not the norm.And many people construe chasing in excitement and lunging around the flock barking like crazy as herding instinct when it is not.Many non herding dogs will do the exact same thing and all you will get is a bunch of torn udders and fleece grabbing and pulling.I've seen many videos of "herding" instinct test and I cringe when the lady passes the dog and says it's got what it takes to herd sheep.
I have worked along side some of the best dog handlers and shepherds in the world and not one of them would ever touch a gsd.Sorry.Thats the way it is on a real working spread wether its in New Zealand or australia or here.When your monthly cheque depends on how well your sheep operation runs,you don't balance that on a tool that "might" be ok with alot of work or perseverence and yet you may still get a sheep killer..You go with the tried,tested and true.
I can honestly say from experience and not good either,most gsd's today will get out, chase and destroy a flock of sheep give a fraction of a chance.That cute bark and hop with a little nip will turn into a full blown run of terror from the sheep and a gsd latching on and ripping wool out along the way and the sense of thrill will overtake almost any training and recall.Like I've said in a previous post,having to slit 20 or more sheeps throats because the neighbours working line and pet type gsd got out at night and had a field day in the lower pasture is not my idea of a picnic.
Have I had worked with gsd's in herding?Yes.I have 2 right now.Even after all I've said about them with sheep,I still believe that they should be a herding dog and its sad to see it die out and I will try my best to promote a breed and its ability even though I do not have much to work with.I see giving something worthwhile a chance and that goes for a large shepherd as well.


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## tierra nuestra

GSDElsa said:


> Uhhhh....so I'm confused at how you can call it hypocritcal and a double standard when 2 years into the breed being official it was already NOT considered a herding breed specifically but rather a utility dog?....by the founder himself? It makes no sense.


I was talking about how people will bash a large shepherd or even a white shepherd and define it not in the standard(which have been with the breed from the begining) and yet they sit and allow an extreme show or pure high drive sharp working line and see not much wrong with that type,yes they may say its not my cup of tea,but I have not seen the antagonism that larger or white shepherds get.Thats what I meant by double standard and hypocrisy.


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## tierra nuestra

whiteshepherds said:


> the original intent was to make a great herding dog by refining and standardizing the shepherding dogs of the time. The industrialization of germany and the decline of sheep farming are what drove max to switch gears. *how soon that happened after the dog was developed is irrelavent, the dog started out as a herding dog. *
> 
> german shepherd dog= dog of the the shepherd, not dog of the policeman.


thank you!


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## tierra nuestra

Whiteshepherds said:


> The original intent was to make a great herding dog by refining and standardizing the shepherding dogs of the time. The industrialization of Germany and the decline of sheep farming are what drove Max to switch gears. *How soon that happened after the dog was developed is irrelavent, the dog started out as a herding dog. *
> 
> German Shepherd Dog= Dog of the the shepherd, not dog of the policeman.


This is what I meant as well when people turned the gsd into something else because they liked the dog but didn't have sheep,so it became a "utility" dog,then some people didn't do utility so it became a show piece,then some people don't want to do show so it became a family pet.Its hard to fit to a standard that has evolved all over the place and for so many different things.Thats why I find the strict standard a bit dumb in some ways and having such harsh critisism on over or under standard size and colour ect a bit off.If a larger shepherd is critiqued and frowned on so much why not a roach?


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## Samba

Pet,show,etc are not standards. The standard of a utilitarian dog has nit changed that I know of.


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## sitstay

tierra nuestra said:


> Right off the bat,herding instinct is almost non existant in these lines


My WGSL is a fantastic herding dog, with plenty of drive. And yes, I did go beyond getting him "tested" on sheep and have actually trialed him. He has done very well in AHBA venues. I can't tell you how many times I have had people (including judges) tell me that Tanner opened their eyes to how workable a GSD can be. If anything, Tanner was *too* strong in the early days and the hard work was channeling his drive.

I know of several other owners of WGSL dogs that are also involved in herding and they report success with their dogs, too.

To say that "herding instinct is almost non existant in these lines" is just not true. Maybe it is more a case where many owners just aren't putting their GSDs on sheep, rather than a lack of instinct.
Sheilah


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## robinhuerta

I haven't read through the numerous pages...so I'm only making a comment regarding the last page.
It was insinuated *somewhere* that the herding instinct is not present in today's WGSL?
*The Herding dogs of the Kirschental Kennels in Germany, are primarily from WGSLs.*
I have never attempted herding with my own personal dogs....so I cannot comment on their capabilities in that particular venue.
But I would applaud anyone that ventures into obtaining Herding Titles, with a dog of any color or bloodline origin.


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## NancyJ

I have not attempted herding but have seen a modern day dog from Kirschental kennels and I don't even know why they brought it to the trial (One I was watching) as the dog was a total spook........... 

I realize that .... historically....that name was associated with herding dogs but ....

I think the old herding line dogs -- the good ones - bring something that makes a GSD not a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd, but the utilitarian nature of the named breed is as old as the breed and what was incoprorated into its standards from very early one..and responsible for the growth of the breed. It does not mean the old type may not still be around, herding for all I know........


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## robinhuerta

*I'm pretty sure the term _spook_...can be used to define many dogs from both WL & SL.....I know I've seen & worked with both*.


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## Andaka

I have competed in herding with several of my American Show Line dogs. Keno was HIT at several AHBA trials and Kizzy was RHIT at the GSDCA National in 2002. Other dogs earned lower titles, but the herding work was good for all of them and for me. Every one of my dogs that was tested showed instince, but they varied in the drives necessary for the work. 

There are other breeders of ASL dogs that participate in herding with their dogs.


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## cliffson1

We really don't have to speculate what Von Stephanitz intended the German Shepherd to be....it is clearly written in his book. I've had the book since 1977 and read it many times and base my breeding program on dogs that fit the type and examples of the book. People's opinions are fine if they are consistent with the book...times have changed and some people have changed the breed...but some of us still breed the type of dog that will do the things that are in his book. Its his creation with others involved at the time....his call...as I see it.


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## tierra nuestra

cliffson1 said:


> We really don't have to speculate what Von Stephanitz intended the German Shepherd to be....it is clearly written in his book. I've had the book since 1977 and read it many times and base my breeding program on dogs that fit the type and examples of the book. People's opinions are fine if they are consistent with the book...times have changed and some people have changed the breed...but some of us still breed the type of dog that will do the things that are in his book. Its his creation with others involved at the time....his call...as I see it.


What kennel do you breed under?I'd love to see some of your dogs.T o see someone breed based on the original type.


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## GSDElsa

tierra nuestra said:


> What kennel do you breed under?I'd love to see some of your dogs.T o see someone breed based on the original type.


Cliff is like an enigma.......


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## tierra nuestra

:thinking:


GSDElsa said:


> Cliff is like an enigma.......


you're right.I 've seen some of his dogs in lineage on database but not alot of info.:thinking:


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## tierra nuestra

Samba said:


> Pet,show,etc are not standards. The standard of a utilitarian dog has nit changed that I know of.


QUOTE-"As of 2011, the SV will recognize the LH (Long Coat) German Shepherd 
Dog once again. Show, Breed Survey 
and seperate Breed Book will be maintained. A seperate Show Ring/Class will most likely be incorporated."


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## GSDElsa

tierra nuestra said:


> :thinking:
> you're right.I 've seen some of his dogs in lineage on database but not alot of info.:thinking:


That's because he doesn't have a website and doesn't know how to upload pics on here  All the dogs from his kennel are on PBD I think, though.


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## Samba

Yes, but the standard for utilitarianism has not changed. Pet and show etc are again not standards.

I don't know anyone here who allows their herding dogs loose on their stock. I presume this is because it might not go well for stock. 

Also, reminded of my vets working line dog. She was given to him after owner had to quit schuzhund. Made a very useful all around farm chore dog and assisted him with livestock daily. I do believe my WL female's greatest joy would have been farm work. Always at her happiest and very instinctive on stock.


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## Franksmom

In a simple form herding is prey drive that has been trained to do a certain job, Border collies do not work livestock in the same way a GSD does but it's still a form of prey drive, I would think any breed of dog that has prey drive could be trained to herd.


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## Samba

I am no expert, but i am not thinking my friend's highly prey driven sighthounds are going to be herding candidates. It takes a complex and interesing genetic skill set.

When going to training I never got the impression I was training the herding instinct into the dog. Huge abilities were already there regarding a sense of stock. The training was just to make it most useful.


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## Franksmom

The dog can have too much prey drive to herd that's true.
But the "herding instinct" that is in dogs like Border collies and GSD's if not trained to herd, and the dog is let run in with live stock they will chase them and if not trained it will be prey drive and not in a good way.


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## Samba

Yes, dogs will bother the stock. This does not then transpose to any dog with prey drive is a herding dog. The first time on stock, my dog was not just chasing them but would purposely move them relative to my position. She has an instinct that was observant of subtle changes is stock such that you get the impression she knows what they are thinking. Of course, it is an ability to read subtlety of body laguage in stock. More than simple chasing prey and then taming prey drive to use. The instinct to gather also pretty interesting. Not a free for all prey run at all and not trained.

The genetics of it is why there are herding breeds and non herding breeds. Prey itself is in many dogs, but certainly not all of them herd.

Yes, it is true that dogs with a high degree of herding instinct will run stock. The fact that a working line got out and bothered stock does not at all mean that the dog is not a herding dog. My friends hard core farm workers can really cause a problem if they get out.


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## NancyJ

If you read the interviews with Manfred Heyne on Ellen Nickelsburg (sp?) site it indicated this herding is completely hard wired into the dog but even in a litter specially bred for it maybe only one dog "has it" -- fascinating.

One of my friends has a GSD with zero training and some goats and cattle and she says the dog cannot stand for the animals to be outside of their pens and if one gets loose will put them back in. I don't know if it is related ....... because I think that is more gathering than tending but I do know any GSD I have ever had has been easy to boundary train for a yard.

German Shepherd Herding


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## cliffson1

Might have told this story before, if so bare with me.... In 1978 I had a 2 year old son of Marko vom Cellerland that was imported from Germany as puppy. One day in Southwest, Ga. a friend and I went to visit this guy who had these horses in a pasture that went for as long as you could see. During those days I took my dog everywhere with me. The three of us are standing at the pasture fence shooting the breeze,when I looked up and Aeric had gone into the pasture and rounded up the horses and was moving them down the pasture away from us. He kept them bunched up and moved them steadily away from us. I started to call him but the owner put his hand on my arm and said to hold, lets see what he is doing. Aeric continued moving the horses until they were getting outa sight when the owner asked me to call him back....I whistled and Aeric ran to the front of then and moved them back to us at the fence which had to be more than quarter mile. When he got back I called him to me and the owner said to me I'll give you 5,000 dollars for that dog. (That was big money in those days...lol) Of course I refused. My point is Aeric was son of VA1 German Seiger and World Seiger Marko vom Cellerland....but his father Kondor was an HGH herding dog. He had "natural" herding instincts to a high degree. I eventually in 1980 put a Sch 1 title on him. Show dog, Sch dog, Herding dog, and a little big to boot....you could get it all in one dog in those days. Today the Marko blood is foundation in some of the best working lines(Maineche lines for one), yet he was highly successful show dog, and he would produce oversized dogs from time to time. Strong herding blood....and you tell me we haven't messed this breed up with the divisions??......Agh!!


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## onyx'girl

Onyx is from unknown pedigree, her "breeder" used her dogs on a farm herding cattle and horses. She also sold pups to other farms(the main reason for her breeding GSD's).
Onyx has a strong herding instinct as well and is oversized at 90# and 26"/but not big-boned and stocky. 
I sure wish I knew her lineage.


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## Samba

Things have gone awry, to be sure.


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## Castlemaid

This is just a guess because I'm not knowledgeable about herding, but I think that the herding instinct is something different then the "pure" prey drive. I see herding as a selected trait that stems from a wild pack's cooperative hunting strategies, where the pack will, when hunting together, move a herd of deer or other animals towards other pack members waiting in ambush, then separate out an intended victim, prevent it from re-joining the herd, and run it down to kill it. 

I can see how the instinct to move the herd towards the other pack members can be selectively bred for in certain breeds like GSDs, and how the instinct to separate out one member and keep it from rejoining the herd can be selectively bred for in other breeds, like Border Collies. 

Don't know if my thinking is on the right path, but I do see herding as a complex behaviour stemming from cooperative survival instincts.


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## Samba

My herding girl goes to Marko through Dix Maineiche and also has Uwe Kirschental in 4th generation. 

It is a fascinating instinct and I really seem to like the dogs with high levels of this ability intact.


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## Samba

Forgot to add, she is on the tall side too!


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## tierra nuestra

Samba said:


> My herding girl goes to Marko through Dix Maineiche and also has Uwe Kirschental in 4th generation.
> 
> It is a fascinating instinct and I really seem to like the dogs with high levels of this ability intact.


Thats why I want to select dogs with intact true herding instinct and perserve a great part of what the gsd is.That is also why I said not all gsd's are lacking but many because so breeders do not consider the herding/gathering ability when deciding to breed an american show or a police k-9.
I definitley see prey drive as a seperate individual trait verses herding/gathering instict.Castlemaids perspective on prey and hunting techniques being a part of herding is dead on.Without the strong compulsion to bunch a flock and keep it from spreading you just have direct prey drive no matter how well you try to train the dog.And yes,as someone else stated,maybe one pup in a litter may be a great header or driver and have the courage in plenty to be able to make a large flock move without resorting to aggression(nipping,biting,nervous pacing or plain out bolting/spooking and head for the hills)At the same time a good dog will not back down when trying to turn a flock or lead ewe and may threaten but never actually get a hands on approach per say.There are so many instinctive factors that make a complete working/herding dog and all the training in the world will not replace what has been bred out carelessly.As I said before,it's worth giving the breed a fighting chance.


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## Samba

There just are not a lot of sheep around here for the consideration.

Where I live we definitely are not upside down as far as sheep to human population.


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## tierra nuestra

Samba said:


> There just are not a lot of sheep around here for the consideration.
> 
> Where I live we definitely are not upside down as far as sheep to human population.


Ya know,you gotta think outside the box.....sheep?who needs sheep,just gather the local children and improvise.I"m sure the parents wouldn't really mind too much.


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## Samba

Well, there does seem to me to be a certain intelligence and sensibility to the good herder. That can definitely be seen. But, testing those various actual herding traits a bit tougher. 

Ha! The neighborhood kids always asked me to put "the sheriff dog" away. They can do a good job at stopping kid shenanigans.


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## Debbieg

I have heard that many who lack sheep for herding are using balls.

No Sheep? Try Treibball for Your Herding Dog


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## onyx'girl

We have many sheep farms around here, though the farmers don't participate in herding type activities(the same family has several farms scattered around the county) They use 4 wheelers to gather the sheep, they move them from pasture to pasture and even across a 5 lane highway once a year in the spring. http://buckhamfarms.com/shropshires.php


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## cliffson1

Samba, two great dogs to go back on for herding/hunt instincts....Uwe/Marko.
There are still lines that have strong herding instincts, especially in the East dogs that go back on Grafental and through Held v Ritterberg. The haus himpel lines have long history. But what people seem to gloss over or don't understand, is the different lines of dogs predicated on show and sport, have made preserving these traits more difficult. A good shepherd dog is going to have balanced drives and good nerves. This usually comes from more open genetics. German Shepherds unlike BCs do not have a standard color or body type that makes a good herding dog. The breed is a creation of other breeds, and you have to keep the breeding open to preserve the essence of the "instinctive" part. You can't do that breeding for show/color/ or sport. You have to constantly do compensation breeding to keep the balance in instincts. UNIFORMITY of type is not a natural part of German Shepherds because of the makeup of its creation. People who breed for that singularly will start to lose the essence of the instinctive traits as the "uniform" traits override them out. JMO


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## RubyTuesday

> We really don't have to speculate what Von Stephanitz intended the German Shepherd to be....it is clearly written in his book.


Cliff, you’re right, however the book is truly complete only when considered with its pictures which show the GSD was a beloved & reliable companion (pet) from its earliest days of development as well as a utilitarian dog. An abundance of nurturing instincts, gentle strength, intelligence, discernment & judgment are beautifully apparent in the pictures. Trustworthy, dependable GSDs are shown with children, small animals, groups of people & other dogs. Providing companionship is as much a part of its valued history as its utilitarian abilities. 




> What I am saying is ... there's always been 100+ lb shepherds. Strong, proportionate, agile... just bigger.


That’s true. At one time very large GSDs were within the standard. Even after the standard was changed to exclude them, they were successfully shown, worked & campaigned in both Germany & the USA. Until recently, a common complaint was that the standard wasn't enforced & even that over sized dogs were frequently preferred to those within the revised standard. Apparently despite changing the standard, many knowledgeable, experienced WL & SL GS breeders & judges still liked ‘em big. The height restriction was enforced only within the last few years. Posts on this board indicate the weight limit still isn’t widely enforced.




> Gosh, really? Maybe you'd like to start with this thread and tell me what you think.
> 
> Locked in Prey


I read the thread. Note that it’s a single thread with 118 posts. Compare that to the myriad threads that explode b/c someone expressed an interest in over sized GSD. 




> And it's definitely selective remembering or half story telling about the "dog bite" incident. If I remember this thread correctly, it was a case of the dog going for a ball reward and missing. Not aggressively attacking mom. Big difference.


You must be referring to a different situation than the one I posted about. The owner of the dog I was referring to stated that the dog bit her hard every time they trained. The post described deep punctures, crushing bites, even a face bite. It was stated these bites were painful or numb long after the bites were incurred. The bite to the neighbor was described as ‘the bloodiest’. She wasn’t seeking help or advice regarding this, in fact she was happy with her dog’s behavior. IF the poster & the dog’s breeder weren’t board favorites, I suspect the dog’s conduct &/or temperament would have been seriously questioned. I’m still not comfortable with the reasoning that people knew or knew of the breeder so the dog must be solid. Excellent breeders can produce an occasional dog with a less than stellar temperament. IF this is normal behavior, then people seeking family dogs should be apprised of what is acceptable behavior to WL enthusiasts. The people I know seeking family dogs would neither expect nor tolerate such behavior in their GSD. 

People seeking a GSD, whether large, small or medium sized, probably aren't interested in Mastiffs, St Bernards, Leonbergers, Kings & Shilohs. I'm not sure why this unsolicited advice is handed out so casually. I've had IWs. Love 'em & I'll have them again, but that's in addition to GSDs, not as a substitute. 

Cliff, it seems that the unhealthiest dogs are often those that look amazingly alike in the show ring. This seems to be true of other breeds besides the GSD. I call them 'cookie cutter' dogs. Yeah, 'type' is strongly fixed ,but it's often a 'type' rife with cancer, HD, heart problems. Even from an aesthetic view, (IMO), dogs that all look alike simply aren't as interesting. But they do 'win'. Or at least their breeders/owners/handlers win. Dogs that die at 4, 6 & 8 aren't winning much for themselves regardless of the ribbons, awards & accolades garnered.


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## codmaster

One quick question for anybody. I have been around and owning GSD's since about 1973.

When were 100lb + GSD's in the standard? 

And when was the standard changed to exclude them? 

I have no memory of that change so must have missed it completely.

Thanks.


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## codmaster

As a followup! - I actually don't remember the standard actually mentioning weight at all - height at the withers. 24"-26" for males and 22'-24" for females.


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## Castlemaid

RubyTuesday said:


> The owner of the dog I was referring to stated that the dog bit her hard every time they trained.


I think I remember this. It was clear that this was a handling and training issue, and not a reflection on the dog's temperament. The bites WERE accidental; again training and handling. Your following descriptions of each individual bite is amazingly visual and vivid, seems to me thrown in for sensationalism over accuracy, as I think you are talking about the entire thread where people were sharing ACCIDENTAL injuries during training. NONE of the posts were a reflection of the dogs' temperament, and twisting such stories and posts into something they are not to try and give your views more weight only weakens them.


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## GSDElsa

Castlemaid said:


> I think I remember this. It was clear that this was a handling and training issue, and not a reflection on the dog's temperament. The bites WERE accidental; again training and handling. Your following descriptions of each individual bite is amazingly visual and vivid, seems to me thrown in for sensationalism over accuracy, as I think you are talking about the entire thread where people were sharing ACCIDENTAL injuries during training. NONE of the posts were a reflection of the dogs' temperament, and twisting such stories and posts into something they are not to try and give your views more weight only weakens them.


I agree--I know EXACTLY what incident she's talking about and she didn't quite make it sound the way it happened. Good or bad training? You can say that, but the dog was not TRYING to bite because of a bad temperment.

And Ruby...it isn't just ONE thread. The "locked in prey" issue has been cropping up quite a bit. And besides...would you like to show me one thread where the post started out that they wanted a "prey monster who is off the wall hyper....really is a Mal in a GSD body." The bottom line is...posts like that don't happen like they happen with wanted dogs outside of the standard in other avenues. I cannot think of a single thread where that is what someone was coming on here asking for. Not that I read every thread, so I'm not ruling it out. But please find some examples for me. Color threads are common, and people get told the same types of things--you shouldn't be looking for some specific trait because other things are going to the wayside.


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## cliffson1

I usually don't weigh in on size issues, just like I try to stay away from hips, because there are such intense opinions from many of the people that really don't understand GS breeding,IMO. 
There will always be some large German Shepherds in the breed...period. The breed was initially comprised of types of dogs,some of which were large boned, with big heads and less reactive then the singular types we have today. Their are larger dogs that are fast, agile, athlectic, and great workers. We need these dogs in the genepool for two reasons, 1) Because they are part of the original compilation and 2) because they are needed for compensation purposes to get back to the middle or balanced when the dogs being bred are on the small side. It still all comes down to the breed has many different looks and types and they are all okay but they should be bound together by their aptitude to be of service to man. The aptitude piece is the most important part of breeding....its not even close...yet people get hung up in these cosmetic and stylish aspects to a point of venom. This to me shows the lack of understanding of the breed. 
Just one simple man's opinion, who is lucky enough to keep getting these perfect dogs...lol


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## Doc

If you choose to ignore the historical accounts addressing the creation of the German shepherd dog, there is no way to understand the diverse elements of this breed. In a nutshell:
Swabian bloodline dogs, that were vital in the creation of this breed were know for their large size (height and weight), work ethic, and calmness. Today, the more Swabian blood there is a German shepherd chances are the dog is bigger (height and weight), displays calmness (couch potato?), and is slow to anger and bite. These were the dogs that were the true shepherd dogs.
On the other hand, you have the Thuringian bloodlines - the "yard" dogs of the aristocracy and the wealthy land owners of central and eastern Germany. These dogs were "guard" dogs and their task was to protect the possessions of the wealthy - their property, their belongings, their land against peasants and thieves. They were smaller dogs, quick to react, fast to bite and chase. The more Thuringian blood in a dog today gives you a more "intense" dog a dog that is hard and resilient and excel at biting.
Max wanted to create a utilitarian dog, with the German mindset of "Germans are the best". So in his breeding, he searched for the right "combination" of Swabian and Thuringian blood. A little bit of this and some of that - if want more of a service type dog (the first being Swabian Service Dogs) make sure your dog has a high amount of Swabian blood. If you want a guard, border patrol dog (if you want a sport/bite type dog) then make sure your dog comes from Thuringian bloodlines. So should a German shepherd be the "shepherd dog" or the "yard" dog? But perhaps that isn't the real question. Is it bad to have both? I do not think so. To quote my friend, "but stop lying about the "true" German  shepherd to yourself and everyone else. That's where the problem lies - in the lies!"


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## KayElle

What current lines carry the swabian blood? Are they considered WL or SL today?


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## Emoore

codmaster said:


> As a followup! - I actually don't remember the standard actually mentioning weight at all - height at the withers. 24"-26" for males and 22'-24" for females.


I've seen weight mentioned in some English translations of the SV standard and not in others? Since I don't read German I have no idea if it's in the original text or not; you'd probably know that better than I would.


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## tierra nuestra

Doc said:


> If you choose to ignore the historical accounts addressing the creation of the German shepherd dog, there is no way to understand the diverse elements of this breed. In a nutshell:
> Swabian bloodline dogs, that were vital in the creation of this breed were know for their large size (height and weight), work ethic, and calmness. Today, the more Swabian blood there is a German shepherd chances are the dog is bigger (height and weight), displays calmness (couch potato?), and is slow to anger and bite. These were the dogs that were the true shepherd dogs.
> On the other hand, you have the Thuringian bloodlines - the "yard" dogs of the aristocracy and the wealthy land owners of central and eastern Germany. These dogs were "guard" dogs and their task was to protect the possessions of the wealthy - their property, their belongings, their land against peasants and thieves. They were smaller dogs, quick to react, fast to bite and chase. The more Thuringian blood in a dog today gives you a more "intense" dog a dog that is hard and resilient and excel at biting.
> Max wanted to create a utilitarian dog, with the German mindset of "Germans are the best". So in his breeding, he searched for the right "combination" of Swabian and Thuringian blood. A little bit of this and some of that - if want more of a service type dog (the first being Swabian Service Dogs) make sure your dog has a high amount of Swabian blood. If you want a guard, border patrol dog (if you want a sport/bite type dog) then make sure your dog comes from Thuringian bloodlines. So should a German shepherd be the "shepherd dog" or the "yard" dog? But perhaps that isn't the real question. Is it bad to have both? I do not think so. To quote my friend, "but stop lying about the "true" German shepherd to yourself and everyone else. That's where the problem lies - in the lies!"


:thumbup:


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## Doc

There isn't an easy answer to that question - unfortunately. As the years have past, and the genetic bottleneck has discarded so much of the diversity in this breed, it is hard to say who is carrying what in today's dog. You'll find both bloodlines in all types of German shepherds. For example, Neumann's Jim. In my lines, Neumann's Jim was used for structure and hip improvement. But Neumann Jim's is also in the foundation of many SchH DDR dogs. IMO, it boils down to how much of a particular blood is in your dog - how has the dog been built? What dogs were used in it's past? What combination of dogs produced what? It's the stuff Cliff talks about. Cliff isn't lucky when he says he has/gets/produces good dogs all the time. It's knowledge of and experience with the various bloodlines IMO. 




KayElle said:


> What current lines carry the swabian blood? Are they considered WL or SL today?


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## Samba

I don't have a problem with a bigger dog or a smaller dog... having lived with one 28"+ and one 22" with hair fluffed. Hopefully that is not the major concern! 

I do recall M. Stephanitz mentioning those who particularly bred dogs for the "large loving" owner. He said these type usually appear in the classifieds. I am with him even on this now as it continues to the present day.

The little red book is a good one. I don't know how all the translations have gone over the years as I can not read the mother tongue. 

"The most suitable size for service dogs is, as will be shown in Chapter 5, something between 22" and 26"; for bitches it should be 22" to 24" , for dogs from 23" to 26". I will describe in Chapter 5 how these measurements are to be taken. ...
The objections to unnatural size in the shepherd dog will be explained at length in Chapter 5; it can, as we have already seen be the result of overbreeding, and all times it is the result of wrong breeding for size at all costs, instead of for the size suitable to the shepherd dog."

excerpted The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture v. Stephanitz, 1925 pages 401-402.

All the talk of changing standards and all, I am with the Max on this one. I have to go train three German Shepherds and a Catahoula so it will be several hours before I can get on to Chapter 5.


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## Doc

Well what Stephanitz wrote and what size dogs were used in the breedings are two different things. He incorporated the "larger" Swabian dogs for a reason. And some of the very early lines/kennels produced over sized dogs their entire life. It wasn't until the 20s that the "taller than standard" dog wasn't allowed to entered into the stud book (per Max's edict) but that doesn't indicate that all German shepherds after that date were within the Standard. Also along the way, the true breeders/shepherds that formed the SV with Stephanitz had given up on trying to help create the German shepherd due to the constant bickering. Besides, the taller genetic material was already in the bloodlines of most of the German shepherds and it is still there today.


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## GSDElsa

But again...what it always seems to go back to. There's a difference between having larger dogs in a bloodline and BREEDING FOR larger dogs.


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## Doc

GSDElsa said:


> But again...what it always seems to go back to. There's a difference between having larger dogs in a bloodline and BREEDING FOR larger dogs.


But again, it depends what you want to do with your German shepherd. There are different functions/task/services for all sizes of German shepherds. You breed two dogs that have as their bloodline a large percentage of "big Swabian blood" then you will increase your chances of getting a "bigger" German shepherd. Pretty basic genetics. If you need a German shepherd to be calm, slow to bite, accepted in social settings, I would think a breeder would try to find suitable dogs that can produce dogs with those characteristics. If I need a blocky/taller dog for wheelchair work; brace/balance, or mobility assistance, then I need to find a pair of dogs that can produce that.
Why do you think the German shepherd is no longer top dog in the service worlds? i.e. seeing, SAR, therapy, assisted livng? Is it because those type of German shepherds are few and far between? Is it because those type of German shepherds have been shunned by the "German shepherd" crowd that focuses on sport and show? Is it because those that see a 100 pound male German shepherd that isn't pawing the ground and ready to protect at all costs classify him/her as a couch potato or a German shepherd in a Golden's coat? You go tell the veteran that depends on a German shepherd to help him/her in and out of bed everyday because his/her legs have been blown off in battle that the care-giver dog is a poor excuse for a German shepherd just because it is too tall or large when compared to the Standard. Or the teenager who has suffered from MS and autism all their life and finally touches and bonds, for the only time in their life, with "bigger than Standard" German shepherd dog because it is calm and non threatening that his dog is too soft and big and therefore isn't a 'real' German shepherd. Or the blind person, the deaf, the stroke patient, the heart patient, the seizure sufferer, the troubled youth in therapy that only talks to her "big" furry friend, and the list goes on and on ...


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## AbbyK9

> Why do you think the German shepherd is no longer top dog in the service worlds?


I believe several of the Service Dog organizations that breed/train their own dogs have stated that the reason they no longer use German Shepherds is because of the public perception of these dogs being "protection" or "police" dogs and therefore aggressive. 

Incidentally, since you are speaking of Service Dogs - German Shepherds were the first breed of dog used for this type of work. After World War I, German Shepherds were trained to act as guide dogs for veterans who had been blinded during the war. If you look at those dogs, they were not the overly tall or overly large dogs people seem to think Shepherds were "back then", they're more the size and build of today's Malinois. Doesn't seem to have been a problem back then.

I also don't think that there's an either/or with a well-bred dog. A dog that has the ability to do service work doesn't need to be a dog that is "soft". A dog with a good, proper, stable temperament should be able to do ANY KIND OF WORK, whether that's being a family companion, or Search and Rescue, or herding sheep, or being a Service Dog. The dog should neither be "soft" nor "sharp" but, being a true Shepherd, the dog should be IN THE MIDDLE, able to do EVERYTHING.

And IMHO if you need a dog that needs to be blocky or taller for wheelchair work, brace/balance, or mobility assistance, there are already PLENTY of lines that tend to produce dogs slightly larger than the standard ... Van Den Heuvel comes to mind. 

Incidentally, there are MANY Labradors doing wheelchair work, brace/balance work and mobility assistance that are shorter than the average male German Shepherd and do perfectly fine doing this type of work. Why do Shepherds need to be bred larger to make it work if Labs don't?


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## Samba

Some dogs will be more suited to service dogs, some to police, some to SAR, etc. As Doc mentioned the propensity of some for herding versus yard dog. 

The founder was well awarenof the different bloods and types in his dog. Perhaps this is why he was so numerically precise in description of goal size for servicable dogs.


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## Franksmom

Doc said:


> But again, it depends what you want to do with your German shepherd. There are different functions/task/services for all sizes of German shepherds. You breed two dogs that have as their bloodline a large percentage of "big Swabian blood" then you will increase your chances of getting a "bigger" German shepherd. Pretty basic genetics. If you need a German shepherd to be calm, slow to bite, accepted in social settings, I would think a breeder would try to find suitable dogs that can produce dogs with those characteristics. If I need a blocky/taller dog for wheelchair work; brace/balance, or mobility assistance, then I need to find a pair of dogs that can produce that.
> Why do you think the German shepherd is no longer top dog in the service worlds? i.e. seeing, SAR, therapy, assisted livng? Is it because those type of German shepherds are few and far between? Is it because those type of German shepherds have been shunned by the "German shepherd" crowd that focuses on sport and show? Is it because those that see a 100 pound male German shepherd that isn't pawing the ground and ready to protect at all costs classify him/her as a couch potato or a German shepherd in a Golden's coat? You go tell the veteran that depends on a German shepherd to help him/her in and out of bed everyday because his/her legs have been blown off in battle that the care-giver dog is a poor excuse for a German shepherd just because it is too tall or large when compared to the Standard. Or the teenager who has suffered from MS and autism all their life and finally touches and bonds, for the only time in their life, with "bigger than Standard" German shepherd dog because it is calm and non threatening that his dog is too soft and big and therefore isn't a 'real' German shepherd. Or the blind person, the deaf, the stroke patient, the heart patient, the seizure sufferer, the troubled youth in therapy that only talks to her "big" furry friend, and the list goes on and on ...


:thumbup: Thanks for saying it so well


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## Doc

I'm curious how the perception that German shepherds were too aggressive came about? Any ideas? Could it be those "real" German shepherds that excel in flying down a field and latching on to an arm with a full strong bite and being flung around by a man in a body suit? Or all those wonderful pictures that show German shepherds with their lips rolled up,gnashing of teeth with froth on their lips anticipating a nice full bite? Probably not ...


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## Lucy Dog

Doc said:


> I'm curious how the perception that German shepherds were too aggressive came about? Any ideas? Could it be those "real" German shepherds that excel in flying down a field and latching on to an arm with a full strong bite and being flung around by a man in a body suit? Or all those wonderful pictures that show German shepherds with their lips rolled up,gnashing of teeth with froth on their lips anticipating a nice full bite? Probably not ...


So you're saying that Schutzhund is the reason that the general public classifies the german shepherd as an aggressive breed? 

I'll bet 99% of the general public has no idea what schutzhund even is..

And since when is a wheel chair so big where it needs to be accompanied by a 100+ pound service dog? Must be some big wheel chairs where you're from.


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## KayElle

opcorn:


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## Samba

I think probably not...

Thin nerved dogs with fear and aggression issues have been the problem often brought to my attention by people looking for servicable dogs. It really wouldn't matter where that type of dog was, it is weakness that is at issue. I am thinking there were probably dogs with weakness in those early founders as it seems to be a problem that can too easily arise in them. I know as the American dog began its decline in nerve strength the perception of aggression and weakness grew across the country.


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## Jessiewessie99

AbbyK9 said:


> I believe several of the Service Dog organizations that breed/train their own dogs have stated that the reason they no longer use German Shepherds is because of the public perception of these dogs being "protection" or "police" dogs and therefore aggressive.
> 
> Incidentally, since you are speaking of Service Dogs - German Shepherds were the first breed of dog used for this type of work. After World War I, German Shepherds were trained to act as guide dogs for veterans who had been blinded during the war. If you look at those dogs, they were not the overly tall or overly large dogs people seem to think Shepherds were "back then", they're more the size and build of today's Malinois. Doesn't seem to have been a problem back then.
> 
> I also don't think that there's an either/or with a well-bred dog. A dog that has the ability to do service work doesn't need to be a dog that is "soft". A dog with a good, proper, stable temperament should be able to do ANY KIND OF WORK, whether that's being a family companion, or Search and Rescue, or herding sheep, or being a Service Dog. The dog should neither be "soft" nor "sharp" but, being a true Shepherd, the dog should be IN THE MIDDLE, able to do EVERYTHING.
> 
> And IMHO if you need a dog that needs to be blocky or taller for wheelchair work, brace/balance, or mobility assistance, there are already PLENTY of lines that tend to produce dogs slightly larger than the standard ... Van Den Heuvel comes to mind.
> 
> Incidentally, there are MANY Labradors doing wheelchair work, brace/balance work and mobility assistance that are shorter than the average male German Shepherd and do perfectly fine doing this type of work. Why do Shepherds need to be bred larger to make it work if Labs don't?


Very well said. GSDs were bred to be a dog that could everything. My great grandmother had GSDs and I saw some old photographs of them, none were oversized or large. They were medium sized and well built.


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## Doc

A general question:
Has there ever been a recognized Champion in the German shepherd history that would be considered over-sized?


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## Castlemaid

Samba said:


> I think probably not...
> 
> Thin nerved dogs with fear and aggression issues have been the problem often brought to my attention by people looking for servicable dogs. It really wouldn't matter where that type of dog was, it is weakness that is at issue. I am thinking there were probably dogs with weakness in those early founders as it seems to be a problem that can too easily arise in them. I know as the American dog began its decline in nerve strength the perception of aggression and weakness grew across the country.



That's probably right. And the widespread and persistent weakness in the dogs being bred in the US probably came about due to working titles no longer being needed to breed.


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## AbbyK9

> I'm curious how the perception that German shepherds were too aggressive came about?


Very easy - because the majority of the general public is usually exposed to German Shepherds when seeing them working for police, border patrol, or the military. 

When Joe Public sees a German Shepherd, it's often in a news story about police dogs or on television shows such as COPS! when the dogs are working. When Joe Public sees these dogs, s/he assumes that they are chosen for this type of work because they are "aggressive" or "attack dogs".

This is why so many people commend on "that police dog" or "that sheriff's dog" when they see a German Shepherd. It probably does not help, either, that books about the breed, especially from the 1920's and 1930's often refer to the breed as "police dog". I have a very nice book plate from a book on working dogs in WWI, showing two dogs (a German Shepherd and a Belgian Shepherd), labeled as "Police Dog and Belgian Shepherd", and just picked up a lovely copy of David Brockwell's 1925 edition of "The Police Dog - A Complete Description of the Shepherd", which has absolutely nothing to do with police work or police training and is simply a book about the German Shepherd breed.


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## AbbyK9

> And the widespread and persistent weakness in the dogs being bred in the US probably came about due to working titles no longer being needed to breed.


IMHO anyone who breeds for any one specific trait rather than the whole package is causing damage to the breed. I have seen plenty of weak nerved show line dogs because some breeders are more focused on the appearance of the dog than they are on the proper temperament and abilities. They should be focusing on everything that makes a GSD a GSD, not just a portion thereof.

Which is, essentially, also my gripe with breeders of oversized dogs - picking ONE trait they want over breeding for the whole package. You can breed a larger dog that can work and has correct temperament. But too many are so, so focused on just size that they are producing a dog with a completely different temperament and lacking the abilities that make a GSD a GSD.

FWIW, I am seeing Malinois going the same way on both ends. You've got the show breeders who don't care a rat's patootie for correct temperament and are breeding pretty nerve bundles, and you've got the working breeders who are breeding so much for drive that they are missing out on stable temperaments.


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## Doc

Castlemaid said:


> That's probably right. And the widespread and persistent weakness in the dogs being bred in the US probably came about due to working titles no longer being needed to breed.


It came about by paper breeding and genetic bottlenecks - when those "other" German shepherds weren't good enough - in the eyes of those in charge - because they carried a blue gene or was too tall or too soft in the eyes of the uneducated, careless breeder. Titles aren't worth the paper they are written on in today's world.


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## Doc

What indication do you have that the only thing a breeder of over-sized dogs ONLY breeds for size. Size is a physical trait - it is the vessel that carries all the nerve, temperament, drive, health of a dog. You try to pour all the problems of a German shepherd into one that is over the standard. And that is a lie. There are over-sized dogs that are just as strong in nerve, just as healthy, just as drivey, just as ... as one that is to Standard. So stop the associations that are lies. My dog is 28" whoopy crap - it's not to Standard; it weighs 100 pounds and is in proportion with its height - whoopy doo - it's not to standard. My last over sized German shepherd lived to be over 13 years old and played/ate until the moment it died. It is as protective, obedient, smart, as a Standard dog. So get off the size element and admit that diversity isn't the problem in the German shepherd world - it's the lies that are spread to advance a particular agenda. All this Standard crap has lead this breed down the tubes and has resulted in the mess we have today. Disrespect and ignore the historical foundations and destruction is sure to follow. The proof is in what you see today within the German shepherd that is bred to the Standard.


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## onyx'girl

Doc, what venues do your dogs that you've produced train or show? Is there a representation of your kennel name out there?


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## Liesje

If people want big GSDs let them buy big GSDs. I prefer average size dogs or even on the smaller side. Mind you, I do not like too fine of bone. Most people who know my male by photos only guess his weight at 85-95lbs based on his substance in photos and he weighs 76lbs in show condition, lighter in more athletic condition. He does not look small and unimposing but I picked the smallest and shortest coupled male from his litter, keeping in mind doing agility and the tight swimmer's turns off the flyball box. I like them this size because of all the strenuous physical activities we do. I feel that asking a dog that is too large, too long, too heavy, or too "loose" to do these activities is putting undue stress on their body. There's enough GSDs out there where everyone can find what they want.


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## cliffson1

In answer to Doc....Vello!!!


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## Samba

In the US the dogs used to be better all around. I am just sure of that. Dogs who were people's pets were taken from backyards and inducted into military service. Many of them returned to be people's pets after that also!

Was the perception of them as war dogs what put people off of them as service animals? I doubt that myself. I do remember some decades ago that the overall trend in breeding went downhill here. I recall picking up books on choosing a dog breed and the GSD was often listed as Do Not Consider. This was not because of their suitability to police work! The contrary, as it was due to too many being bred with nerve issues and fear aggression. I can only guess the pool to choose service animals from narrowed. 

We can clearly read the size prescribed by von Stephanitz. Of course some outliers here are there are not a big deal to me if they carry good traits. Still not convinced I am going to those "old fashioned" breeders of the giant pet that I see so often. If someone has a larger line and they don't try to capitalize on those pet buyers seeking the impressiveness of largess, well, that is another thing. I know some big dogs that can serve the police any day. They aren't from anywhere advertised as that particular size niche though.


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## Lin

My 24" bitch works just fine as a mobility brace, pull my wheelchair, etc.


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## Dainerra

I think the "GSD = bad reputation" comes from the same place that John Q Public gets all of their info. rumor, propaganda, and bad reporting. 
I know people who can "prove" that dobermans turn on you because their brains get too big for their skulls and then they go insane.
The same people also believe that pit bulls have "locking jaws", that GSDs are racist (because they are GERMAN ya know!!) and a million other ridiculous doggie myths


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## Lucy Dog

What's the point of even having a breed if there's no standard? Breeders should just breed as they see fit with no regard to what the breed should be?

When does it get to the point where these dogs are too big... 140 pounds, 150 pounds? What about toy German shepherd? Maybe they can be bred down to 20-30 pounds. I'm sure there would be a market for that too. What's to stop breeders from doing that if there's no regard to the standard


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## onyx'girl

cliffson1 said:


> In answer to Doc....Vello!!!


Fluff or 
V TRANS 
pluck/pull/tear out; extract; pull hair/plants; uproot; depilitate; demolish


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## Lucy Dog

Lin said:


> My 24" bitch works just fine as a mobility brace, pull my wheelchair, etc.


So you're saying you don't need a 30" / 140 pound Rottweiler type dog to do this type of work?!


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## webzpinner

I've known a few people who have had "oversized" versions of different breeds (one was a beagle). All their dogs had cardio issues. The beagle died after 3... yes... 3 heart attacks. Pushing the size of the dog up, but trying to maintain proportions, is INCREDIBLY taxing on an organism... that being said... saw the weirdest thing the other day... a MINIATURE great dane. Some weirdo is trying to create a new breed... Using Dane and greyhound genetics... VERY odd looking.


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## Lin

webzpinner said:


> saw the weirdest thing the other day... a MINIATURE great dane. Some weirdo is trying to create a new breed... Using Dane and greyhound genetics... VERY odd looking.


could be worse.. At least he's using greyhound and not whippet or italian greyhound to achieve it


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## webzpinner

Lucy Dog said:


> What about toy German shepherd? Maybe they can be bred down to 20-30 pounds.


They have those in spades in California... seem to be Shepherd/fox terrier, Shepherd/valahund or Shepherd/chihuahua mixes.


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## Lucy Dog

webzpinner said:


> They have those in spades in California... seem to be Shepherd/fox terrier, Shepherd/valahund or Shepherd/chihuahua mixes.


I was talking about just breeding down the size of GSD's by only using the smallest GSD's. Kind of like how "old fashioned" breeders up the size by only breeding large GSD's.

With that being said... GSD/chihuahua mixed?! Wow... How is that even physically possible??


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## RubyTuesday

Codmaster, here is the info on the weight which is consistent with what's been posted to this board in various threads. Some have said height is more important than weight although the reasons given opposing over sized GSD are usually stated in terms of weight. I don't see where the standard itself says height is a more serious infraction but perhaps I missed it. 

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard

USA GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG STANDARD

Size/Weight

Males: Height at the wither 60 cm to 65 cm
Weight 30 kg to 40 kg.

Females: Height at the wither 55 cm to 60 cm
Weight 22 kg - 32 kg


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## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> Codmaster, here is the info on the weight which is consistent with what's been posted to this board in various threads. Some have said height is more important than weight although the reasons given opposing over sized GSD are usually stated in terms of weight. I don't see where the standard itself says height is a more serious infraction but perhaps I missed it.
> 
> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
> 
> USA GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG STANDARD
> 
> Size/Weight
> 
> Males: Height at the wither 60 cm to 65 cm
> Weight 30 kg to 40 kg.
> 
> Females: Height at the wither 55 cm to 60 cm
> Weight 22 kg - 32 kg


 
That is not the American standard that the vast majority of people in the US use. The standard in the USA is the AKC standard maintained by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA). There is no weight standard in that one that I am aware of.

Notice that in the one you describe the units are in the European units, not in the inches measure that I mentioned either. Almost the same, but not quite = 24-26". 23.6"-25.6"


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## RubyTuesday

I didn't realize you were only interested in the American standard. Many here seem to prefer the German. Is over sized a disqualification in the American standard or is it a fault?


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## RubyTuesday

Lin, there are wheelchair bound people who prefer larger GSDs. Ditto those needing a brace/balance dog. One person I'm aware of that prefers them oversized (but lean) is pulled in her wheelchair across fields, pastures, wooded areas, & other rough terrain, uphill & down. Anyone needing a service or assistant dog s/b encouraged to get the one that suits them best, which is entirely consistent with a real working dog. 

Doc, I've read that prior to Klodo v Boxberg over sized GSD weren't uncommon. One of the Siegers was 29", so it was obviously within the standard in the early days of the breed. A common complaint when I 1st joined the board was that the standard wasn't enforced & dogs that were clearly over the standard were often chosen over the smaller GSDs. Whether officially or with a nudge & wink, oversized GSDs have long been around & appreciated.

Justine & Lucia, yes the bites were described as accidental as well as frequent & hard. I'm not aware of any dog that bites its owner every time they train, especially hard, crushing bites or on the face. IF that temperament is typical of certain lines or breeders, interested puppy seekers s/b apprised of it, especially if they want a 'family companion'. Without seeing the dog & apprising it personally I'm not convinced anyone can be certain what's going on with it. Below is the post I'm referring to. I've taken out the dog's name as it's irrelevant. The vivid & descriptive language was clearly the original poster's, not mine.

_"XXXXX - Yes, he bites me every time we train! He bit my left hand twice today, it feels crushed at the moment. But these are just accidental bites, like missing the toy/target. I have two nice pairs of working gloves but I guess I can't be bothered to wear them. A few weeks ago he bit my face. Again an accident but I was NOT pleased and it still kinda hurts. Over the summer he bit my thumb so hard it was numb for a long time and had a deep puncture (I was holding Kong Wubba, talking to my uncle and not paying attention). He's also bit our helper a few times during agitation work without the sleeve or with the right hand, if he reaches in just an inch too close! Again, nothing you can "blame" on the dog, that's just part of training dogs! Oh, he also bit my neighbor's hand after we TOLD him not to reach over our fence and dangle the dogs' toys unless he knew how to get the dog to target. I think that was the bloodiest bite so far but the neighbor laughed and said now he knows what I mean about this not being your average tug-playing dog."_


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## codmaster

RubyTuesday said:


> I didn't realize you were only interested in the American standard. Many here seem to prefer the German. Is over sized a disqualification in the American standard or is it a fault?


It's supposed to be a fault, BUT many of the dogs winning in the show ring (as specials, esp.) are in fact oversize.

BTW, the American (GSDCA) standard is by far the major one in the US.


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## Lin

RubyTuesday said:


> Lin, there are wheelchair bound people who prefer larger GSDs. Ditto those needing a brace/balance dog. One person I'm aware of that prefers them oversized (but lean) is pulled in her wheelchair across fields, pastures, wooded areas, & other rough terrain, uphill & down. Anyone needing a service or assistant dog s/b encouraged to get the one that suits them best, which is entirely consistent with a real working dog.


And there are already oversided GSDs born to standard sized parents. If everyone started breeding for people who prefer things where would we be? Thats the issue people are trying to point out. There is no need to breed dogs purposefully outside the standard. People prefer all sorts of things, that doesn't mean the breed should be molded to fit all those things. Those who want something outside the standard and have a purpose are free to develop their own breed. But when does it become not a GSD anymore? 30"? 35"?

Anyone needing a service animal should be encouraged to get the dog that fits their needs best, not wants best. And that may be a 24-26" dog despite desires for a 28"-30" dog.


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## Castlemaid

Well, if you are playing tug with a dog and he jumps for the ball or the tug and you don't get out of the way, you can get accidentally bit. And if don't want to inhibit your dog for whatever reason, you don't make a big deal out of it, and continue on. This has to do with a training/handling mentality and has *nothing to do with the dog's temperament*.

AGAIN: IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DOG'S TEMPERAMENT. THIS IS THE WAY IT WAS TAUGHT TO PLAY.


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## Doc

Ruby, I once stated that "old fashion" refereed to dogs pre- Boxberg era and of course I was told I didn't know what I was talking about. In several German shepherd books it is noted that when Boxberg was named Champion by Stephnitz the entire breed changed (some even refer to the split as the "old blood" vs. the "new blood" and many kennels advoided crossing with the Boxberg line). The same can be said when Lance was crowned. And it is true, many of the dogs before Boxberg were larger dogs. Early dogs: the Krone kennels, the Blasienberg, the Boll dogs, Jung Tell as well as others were larger dogs and Champion dogs but many people today prefer to ignore that era. They will argue that Boxberg was crowned by Max because he felt like the dogs were too large; I suggest he crowned Boxberg because of his work ethic more than his size but we will never know for sure. Again, the concept that over the Standard (oh yeah, why would anyone that loves and respects the German shepherd rewrite Max's original Standard????) German shepherds can not work is a lie.


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## cliffson1

As i have said , there have always been oversized dogs in the breed. Still the key to me is compensation breeding. It really bothers me when I hear people say I would never use that dog, because it has "fair or NZ hips" or because the dog is oversized. If the other partner has a propensity for weak hips or oversize....then I understand. But what if the other partner is strong in these areas and the dog possesses other traits you need?????
Vello zu den Sieben Faulen has left a legacy of conformation and performance dogs and producers of conformation and performance dogs. Vello could never become Excellent Select because he was oversized, threw paling colors and threw white in his litters. Yet this oversized dog contributed to arguably the "greatest breeding of the breed" in the B,C,D, F litter Lierberg. (I'm pretty sure there was "C" litter) These breedings produced Bodo and Bernd, who everyone knows, and also some very good dogs in D,F litters some of which ended up in Scandinavian countries. Isn't it ironic that the Scandinavian countries recognized the value of this breeding and the genius Americans had Bodo, the German Seiger, in this country and barely used him!!!(My cynicism of the wisdom of American breeders from the mid-sixties on ward is not just based on looks or the Lance craze).
Fortunately, Vello was not eliminated from the genepool because of his size, though I guess the breeding was BYB, but he proved to be of value with the right mates to further improve the breed.


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## Samba

As far as I can tell there are still a number of dogs who are larger. I know the breed ring is likely to award them. Many people more concentrated on working abilities wouldn't toss the baby out with the bathwater and I have recently seen some large dogs quite capable in many ways. They are getting breedings.

I don't have prejudice against a large dog, just large breeding as the special market supply of consistently oversize dogs where it often becomes the bigger the better!

Of course, in the production of good dogs, striking a balance might involve the use of a larger dog at times be it for their size or other attributes they might contribute. I am sure Max understood compensation breeding as he seemed to make many choices along those lines. Max's standard for size as he wrote it down for publication does not seem that altered by today's written standards regards size?


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## onyx'girl

I agree totally with you Samba, as a marketing tool it is wrong. Some breeders put the weight of the dog on their description, nothing said about pedigree or titles, just how much the dog weighs?? 
As I have two that are over the standard, I do know they can be very agile and athletic. But mine are not the big-boned, deep chested body style that many oversized bred dogs are. Makes a difference in workability and stamina.


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## holland

Yes it is much better to market in the correct way by the way what did Max say about that since he is being quoted about everything


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## onyx'girl

holland, So you think weight is a great selling tool and should be the focus of a breeding program, because for some it seems to be that way.


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## holland

Where in my post did I say that


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## lhczth

Even Vello was only slightly over standard (67 cm or 26.4"). 

The FCI/SV standard is 55-60 cm for females and 60-65 for males with 1 cm over or under permitted. Thus a female can be a bit over 21" up to a hair over 24". A male a bit over 23" up to 26". 

Weight. For females 48.5# up to 70.5#. Males 66# up to a bit over 88#. Weight would be much harder to control since it can be influenced by how fit or fat the dog is. Many of these massive dogs I see advertised are fat. Also bone size, structure, etc will influence a dog's weight. My male is just under the top of the standard in height, but right at the top in weight.


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## holland

Really just wondering what the correct way to market is


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## Samba

I wonder where the small, scrappy, curly-haired dogs are that were also used in the foundation? I mean we could go way back in the breed and select out some varied types if we truly wanted to be old-fashioned about it. My guess is the pet buying population would not be so enamored with that old fashioned type because I often find that to many pet buyers size matters!


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## Liesje

lhczth said:


> Many of these massive dogs I see advertised are fat.


This.

There was a thread on here recently posted by someone that wanted an oversize dog as if that was the only way to get a dog with a "substantial" appearance and strong presence. Several members provided examples of dogs within the standards from various lines that in no way appear fine or feminine and I believe the OP got the point. I think a lot of times people see a dog with a strong presence and assume it is larger or heavier than it really is, then go off looking to buy dogs marketed primarily for their size (which in many cases is just fat).


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## Samba

Is there a written standard today that has varied from the old- fashioned one MvS wrote down in the old days regarding the measurement for height?

Out of curiosity, I purused some sites and found a lot of fatness. Is this because the dogs are more like Labs in adipose tissue to muscle ratio? Is that the genetics? Hopefully no one wanting to increase size with food!


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## Doc

Max himself wasn't a very good breeder. he moved to barvaria to be close to the "best" breeders and the shepherd dogs that dominated that region. He relied on the breeders at and many dogs from the Krone kennels - breeders who were first and foremost farmers and dogs that were shepherds. That is one reason the dogs before Boxberg were rather large - they were influenced by the Swabian bloodlines and the genetic diversity found in the dogs of the region.
The constant harping that German shepherds were never big dogs is absolutely wrong. Advertising one aspect of the German shepherd is done by most breeders all the time whether it be size, bite, tracking, etc. what is the difference between saying "my dogs are over-sized" (albeit balanced) as opposed to saying "my dogs have extremely strong bite and hold in the field" (albeit balanced)? Again, the notion that over-sized German shepherds are unhealthy, can't work, is a German shepherd in a Golden's coat are all lies. It's like saying that all SchH dogs are prey monsters and eat little children after that kill their handler - but that's ok because they are within the Standard.


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## Doc

Samba said:


> I wonder where the small, scrappy, curly-haired dogs are that were also used in the foundation? I mean we could go way back in the breed and select out some varied types if we truly wanted to be old-fashioned about it. My guess is the pet buying population would not be so enamored with that old fashioned type because I often find that to many pet buyers size matters!


There's a reason Stephnitz picked larger dogs and better coats. He may have like the fiestiness of the wired haired Thuringian but want something more substantial, IMO. It had nothing to do with with pet buyers.


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## Samba

I agree that Max's decisions had to do with his building of the breed. 

Today's old fashioned breeders do not remind me much of Max at all. They do remind me of a very old fashioned thing though. That is why it is always interesting to me that the discussions of this modern practice often gets the ideas of MvS brought in though it doesn't seem at all to relate to these dogs except that, yes, to get big dogs there once had to be big dogs.

If we are going to talk of the foundation, then we can see Max did use some big dogs but spent a fair amount of time addressing oversize breeding.

We could argue that Max went awry in his size definitions as he wrote them. I know a lot of people who feel they have improved on his ideas.


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## Liesje

I feel sorry for some of these dogs, being kept and bred in the condition they're in.


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## Samba

I will say I see a "huge" difference in an over-sized dog of the breed and a kennel full of fat extra large dogs claiming something old-fashioned! We are talking about two different things here on this thread, I hope. I mean would we take Vello and just feep improving on his impressive size. Why?

I realize some might have some larger dogs in a balanced breeding program, but there would be a limit to that. Where are the Thuringian dogs now? I really do believe there was some great breeding there behind what Max adopted. I never thought that he really was about improving on what were already some good dogs. He was creating a breed We should go back and get those that were there before Max messed them up mixing them with others.


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## Catu

Samba said:


> I will say I see a "huge" difference in an over-sized dog of the breed and a kennel full of fat extra large dogs claiming something old-fashioned! We are talking about two different things here on this thread, I hope. I mean would we take Vello and just feep improving on his impressive size. Why?


Ahhh, it is refreshing to see the thread back to topic :growingtree:


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## RubyTuesday

Regardless of the 'shouting' IMO it can't be unequivocally stated the bites had nothing to do with temperament unless the dog was personally assessed, preferably by an expert. People seek different threshholds, levels of reactivity, & eagerness to bite. Is it necessarily a 'bad temperament'? No. It's what the owner wanted & is pleased with. Many seeking a family dog might find that behavior unacceptable & prefer a more respectful dog with more temperate responses & better judgment. 

Many pet dogs regardless of size or lines are deplorably fat & in poor condition. That's on the owner (or breeder) & simply shouldn't be. 

Sam is 27" & 100+ slightly hefty lbs. I initially got some excess weight off her b/c she'd been accustomed to chowing down with the free fed pups & had gotten too heavy. She's still somewhat heavy, but at 12yrs I'm not making her miserable with dieting that I don't believe will increase her lifespan, or improve her quality of life.

Djibouti at 18 mos was 29.5" & ~93lbs. I don't know what he weighs now but it's probably not much more. He's got good bone, substantial but not massive, & is very lean, active & fit. Many people, especially pet people, would consider him 'skinny' but he's not. He's at a good weight for a young, active GSD. People lose sight of the fact that most animals, (including people), gain weight as they age. Thin when young, is IMO desirable, unless it results from poor nutrition or health problems. Shoot, it's good when older, but more difficult to maintain, which is another reason I hate, realllly *hate* seeing young dogs fat & soft. Regardless of how tall they are, or which lines they're from, they don't need to be fat & shouldn't be. But this is a 'pet' issue rather than a given with oversized GSD.


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## Samba

So, the number of fat breeding stock that I came across is not due to a genetic predisposition to fat deposits, but rather due to a number of breeders feeding their breeding stock like pets? I guess the breed is truly doomed. It appears a number of those venerable and wise who are preserving the genetics of the old large lines that von Stephanitz liked are not able to keep them in spectacular condition and well-muscled. 

Yes, I am sure there are some who do, but then the internet advertising savvy seems to go to those who do not.


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## Lin

Ok, so, there's the argument about Swabian blood and old fashioned GSDs... But, if thats the "old fashioned" you're referring to, then what do you think about breeders marketing with statements such as "the dog you remember as a kid"?


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## RubyTuesday

Samba, I don't know why people like plump dogs, but they do. This is often the show people as well as pet people. SL GSD aren't usually roly poly but look at the Labs, Rotties, Mastiffs & Bulldogs waddling around the ring. Dogs are generally genetically geared to eat as though severe deprivation is just around the corner & many will eat themselves into morbid obesity if permitted.

There are differences of opinion as to what is a desirable weight. Personally, especially in young dogs, I prefer the skinny side of lean. I don't find many people who agree with me, whether breeders or owners, but I trust myself on this, so I keep my guys lean & don't bother with what others believe is ideal.

There are numerous breeders whose dogs are neither fat nor thin, which they prefer & consider ideal. It's not my personal preference. I strongly 
believe lean benefits the dog, especially in the long run, but I'm neither capable of, nor interested in, making others acquiesce to my opinions. I've seen breeders whose dogs I consider grossly over weight. I don't know if a genetic component has been selected for, b/c none of those breeders appeal to me, but it's certainly possible. If so, it's wrong & foolish, b/c owners will have to struggle mightily to keep 'em lean if lean is what they prefer. Keeping Djibouti lean hasn't taken any more effort than providing him with adequate exercise & not over feeding.

Lin, when I see people referring to the 'dogs I remember as a kid' I have to smile. Frankly, many of 'em were just all around sounder, healthier, nicer & IMO more attractive too. I quit even looking at the GSD when I go to AKC shows b/c they're overwhelmingly sad...I dislike the extreme agulation & wobble walk, but worse are the skittish, reactive, cringing, snappy, lunging, shrieking GSD that are so common around here (other areas might be different). Bleh. Those are NOT the GSD of my childhood. Rough Collies, American Cockers, Irish Setters, Boston Terriers, Persian & Siamese cats have all been bred to be (IMO) caricatures of themselves. When I initially saw GSD described as old fashioned I assumed it was the level back, moderate angulation & stable temperament they were referring to. I still think of those things when I think 'old fashioned'.


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## tierra nuestra

RubyTuesday said:


> Samba, I don't know why people like plump dogs, but they do. This is often the show people as well as pet people. SL GSD aren't usually roly poly but look at the Labs, Rotties, Mastiffs & Bulldogs waddling around the ring. Dogs are generally genetically geared to eat as though severe deprivation is just around the corner & many will eat themselves into morbid obesity if permitted.
> 
> There are differences of opinion as to what is a desirable weight. Personally, especially in young dogs, I prefer the skinny side of lean. I don't find many people who agree with me, whether breeders or owners, but I trust myself on this, so I keep my guys lean & don't bother with what others believe is ideal.
> 
> There are numerous breeders whose dogs are neither fat nor thin, which they prefer & consider ideal. It's not my personal preference. I strongly
> believe lean benefits the dog, especially in the long run, but I'm neither capable of, nor interested in, making others acquiesce to my opinions. I've seen breeders whose dogs I consider grossly over weight. I don't know if a genetic component has been selected for, b/c none of those breeders appeal to me, but it's certainly possible. If so, it's wrong & foolish, b/c owners will have to struggle mightily to keep 'em lean if lean is what they prefer. Keeping Djibouti lean hasn't taken any more effort than providing him with adequate exercise & not over feeding.
> 
> Lin, when I see people referring to the 'dogs I remember as a kid' I have to smile. Frankly, many of 'em were just all around sounder, healthier, nicer & IMO more attractive too. I quit even looking at the GSD when I go to AKC shows b/c they're overwhelmingly sad...I dislike the extreme agulation & wobble walk, but worse are the skittish, reactive, cringing, snappy, lunging, shrieking GSD that are so common around here (other areas might be different). Bleh. Those are NOT the GSD of my childhood. Rough Collies, American Cockers, Irish Setters, Boston Terriers, Persian & Siamese cats have all been bred to be (IMO) caricatures of themselves. When I initially saw GSD described as old fashioned I assumed it was the level back, moderate angulation & stable temperament they were referring to. I still think of those things when I think 'old fashioned'.


EEEK,what they have done to the siamese is just disgraceful to the cat breed.And the poor persian is just riddled to the point of being incapacitated.Alot of these cats have lost their instinct to use the litter box or even cover their deposits.And the god awful smell when they actually are able to go is the most offensive smell.The animals that you have listed are in the shape they are in due to fads at the time and extremism and not actually being bred for health and temperment rather a certain look or style thats "desirable" to a certain crowd.
seriously,an apple head or a modern siamese?no contest.


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## Samba

Yes, there are crazy extremes in almost any competitive area where extreme is not penalized. 

We have a lot of pet breeders around here. Many shy and reactive dogs. Not much of them from completely ASL either. 

Many people have jumped the rails in breeding for their particular market or competitive venue. I really enjoy it when one outlier group points at another for justification of their particular extreme.

Of course if you go concentrating too much things even as noble as hip status you will loose parts of the dog also. Breeding is pretty hard to do well. Not all of my dogs have been completely orthopedically sound. Never considered it as bad breeding because I knew what the goals were and the breeders knowledge and integrity in breeding approaches. I don't know alot who are really good at it.


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## RubyTuesday

Samba, I agree that it's not only SL. One of the wonkiest dogs I ever met is a GS WL. I've also known a bunch of byb GSD who were shy, spooky, reactive etc. Regardless of what you're seeking in a GSD, it's a breed to acquire only after a ton of forethought, research & investigation into the breeders & dogs you're interested in.

My guy is tall. Beyond that there's nothing about him that's extreme other than he's extremely intelligent, trainable, discerning, healthy, sound & unflappable. Which also describes his grandma. They're not everyone's cuppa but they suit me beautifully & definitely provide JQP with positive images of GSDs.

Tierra Nuestra, I agree. I can't fathom why people find deformities 'cute'. Pugs that run into walls injure their eyes! How aberrant is that! Sadly, many of the breeds that have been structurally compromised the worst have very pleasant, likeable personalities. Great way to show appreciation, huh?

Goldens are still lovely to look at (though the slavish expressions so many wear don't sit well with me) but many lines die of cancer b/w 5 & 6. Ditto Boxers. (I'm not a fan of the 'pushed face', but it's not nearly as extreme in Boxers as in many brachycephalic breeds. They continue to be an active, athletic breed albeit all too short lived in many cases)


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## tierra nuestra

RubyTuesday said:


> Samba, I agree that it's not only SL. One of the wonkiest dogs I ever met is a GS WL. I've also known a bunch of byb GSD who were shy, spooky, reactive etc. Regardless of what you're seeking in a GSD, it's a breed to acquire only after a ton of forethought, research & investigation into the breeders & dogs you're interested in.
> 
> My guy is tall. Beyond that there's nothing about him that's extreme other than he's extremely intelligent, trainable, discerning, healthy, sound & unflappable. Which also describes his grandma. They're not everyone's cuppa but they suit me beautifully & definitely provide JQP with positive images of GSDs.
> 
> Tierra Nuestra, I agree. I can't fathom why people find deformities 'cute'. Pugs that run into walls injure their eyes! How aberrant is that! Sadly, many of the breeds that have been structurally compromised the worst have very pleasant, likeable personalities. Great way to show appreciation, huh?
> 
> Goldens are still lovely to look at (though the slavish expressions so many wear don't sit well with me) but many lines die of cancer b/w 5 & 6. Ditto Boxers. (I'm not a fan of the 'pushed face', but it's not nearly as extreme in Boxers as in many brachycephalic breeds. They continue to be an active, athletic breed albeit all too short lived in many cases)


My sister breeds boxers and she's at the point where she really does not like what they have become.She says they've bred the face right off them,their pouchy eyes have to be stapled and stiched(in show rings this is not allowed but so many have it done anyways)the hearts are shot(CARDIOMYOPATHY is through the roof)they are pretty much giraffes now they've stretched them up so much and temperments have become spastic and off the wall.She brought a german female (kate)over but she did not place well in the SR as she has uncropped ears,a beautiful bullish but elegant conformation,a little on the short side and sweet soft nature with amazing tight eyes.She was disappointed with the way she was critqued as she is an amazing little old school boxer but of the best of the best.
I shouldn't have laughed but I did about the poor pugs and their cherry eyes(shudder)when the eyes lead the way,literally,you got to rethink what your producing and why.


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## Whiteshepherds

Lin said:


> Ok, so, there's the argument about Swabian blood and old fashioned GSDs... But, if thats the "old fashioned" you're referring to, then what do you think about breeders marketing with statements such as "the dog you remember as a kid"?


For a breeder to make statements like "the dog you remember as a kid" is actually pretty subjective.

I like to think that the GSD's that were around when I was a kid (the 50's) had a lot more going for them than they do now, so I'd take a look for sure. Of course with my luck the breeder would be 30 and I'd be looking at dogs from their childhood, not mine!


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## Lin

I should have been more specific, I meant when those statements are made specifically regarding the size of the dogs. Since its unlikely their market is those who were kids during the breeding of Swabian blood into the GSD, what is the opinion? Thats one of the biggest issues I have with the marketing of the "old fashioned" dogs. Because I see so many breeders using these terms when the old fashioned dogs in the time periods they're discussing were smaller than todays dogs, not larger.


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## tierra nuestra

very true about concentrating on one trait.If you focus so much on one you lose sight of others.Over all is what you have to target for.And yes you may not get a stunner everytime with a good balanced breeding scheme but you get a high average of good dogs with good conformation and good temperments rather than getting one exeptional dog and the rest are rated fair to poor.
With sheep we produce 100 times the quantity of animals than most kennels so we play with gentics alot and are able to see what makes what.We see what gives consistency and what doesn't.We also see how some genetics overcompensate for some that are lacking and that is not always ideal either.Its a science really but you also have to throw in luck of the draw in some situations.Theres always the chance of the tried and true breeding having some odd unexpected trait pop up from nowhere(throw backs) and leaves you scratching your head thinking how did that happen?But you sit down and research and generally you can find the branch that leads to your question mark.Even great breeders are prepared for the unexpected.AS IN THE BLACK AND WHITE EWE LAMB THAT CAME OUT OF 2 PUREBRED DORPERS.SHE CAME OUT BLACK AND WHITE LIKE SHE DID BECAUSE DORPERS HAVE PERSIAN BLOOD IN THEM ABOUT A GADZILLION GENERATIONS BACK(60 YEARS WORTH)AND OUT OF THE BLUE WE GET A BLACK SHEEP.


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## tierra nuestra

Oops!


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## Doc

Genetically speaking, Swabian blood is in all the German shepherds - I don't care when the dog was/is born. I would postulate that in the past 30+ years the percentage of Swabian blood in a German shepherd has declined. And for the historical record, after intense inbreeding and line breeding on Horand, Stephnitz turned to two *unregistered* Swabian dogs to breed to - Audifax and Adalo. Imagine that. So to poo poo the German shepherds that have/had a large percent of Swabian blood i.e. bigger, more calm, illuminates ones limited respect/knowledge of this breed. To group all breeders of over-sized (in some cases slightly over the Standardin height or weight) German shepherds into money hungry, public poaching, greedy, unethical rip-off artist is deplorable.



Lin said:


> I should have been more specific, I meant when those statements are made specifically regarding the size of the dogs. Since its unlikely their market is those who were kids during the breeding of Swabian blood into the GSD, what is the opinion? Thats one of the biggest issues I have with the marketing of the "old fashioned" dogs. Because I see so many breeders using these terms when the old fashioned dogs in the time periods they're discussing were smaller than todays dogs, not larger.


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## Samba

Of course, we can only speak in generalities or lumps from the sampling readily available or viewable. I will wonder if the breeder calls attention to size of their dogs. Now if they said their dogs were slightly oversized because that is in their lines... If they were not using the old fashioned terms of size that would be sometihng too. I mean I imagine there are breeders working to preserve traits but they likely are not advertising in a manner that gets them assocuated with the "old fashioned" crew.

Just as there are enough examples of extremity to make generalizations about other breeders in lumps, so this niche also. 

People are often extracting traits within the breed to emphasize... It could be prey drive, it could be the recessives like black and red color, it could be the genetics if shoulder and rear extremity, it could be size and calmness. They can all come up with reasons for their concentration on a certain part of the genetic package passed down from the types making up the breed.


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## cliffson1

Samba you are so right that people have always emphasized traits such as color, size, angulation, shoulder, etc......Its just the hypocrisy of one emphasizer over criticizing another. I don't care what the color of the dog within acceptable color, nor the other traits as long as they constitute a German Shepherd in looks and performance. Little angulation, moderate angulation, extreme angulation...as long as they can go over the six foot straight wall I'm okay. Now if I see a tendency of a certain type of angulation, as not being able to perform as the dogs in his book do....then they fall out of breed favor for me. That's the way I see it! Right now I have a dog that is probably a tad bigger than my personal tastes....but he does anything I ask him so.....no problem.(And I'm pretty demanding what I ask to ensure correct temperament and structure.)


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## Doc

The idea/marketing that the german shepherd _has always been a medium sized dog_ and the _true_ German shepherd is a protection/guard/sport dog is nothing more than promoting one aspect of the breed. At the very least, people will read into what they want concerning the term "old fashion" but I would venture to say that the majority would think of a larger, level back, and calm dog instead of the German shepherd they see today. Whatever the term used "old fashion", "old blood", "old world", "over sized", they all refer to something that is far different from what is seen most often today.


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## Samba

I think some variety is good, there are different functionalities for types that are produced. One Shepherd might be more suited to moving cattle and another approprite to ducks yet another a guard dog. This variety is good, I think. Considering the foundations of the breed, some ranges of characteristics will arise. Good for an all-round useful breed, I would think.

I have or have had a variety of German Shepherds. Some by purchase, some by gift, and some by rescue. I am not into justifying them because I have them and then love them, or going to deny any extremities or lop-sidedness in their breeding. Just as we should not single out one as to the other neither does the undesirable of one niche justify another. Certainly, not because one peculiar group thinks their extremity is a more palatable and useful type of outlier. My dog's extremity is better than your dog's is a funny tune to me. Of course, if some one finds themselves in a particular line but they do not indulge in the pursuit and market generally associated with that niche, well, that happens in all groups too. 

Then there is that thing where the dog should be most shepherd-like in expression, appearance and nature. All the extremes ending up losing this in too many of their specimens...they get faults that many would purpose to not have in their dogs.


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## Doc

The bottom line comes down to the _*nerve*_ of the dog. The nerve of the German shepherd is what sets it apart from every other characteristic. I prefer large to over-sized German shepherd with impeccable nerve. Unfortunately, the nerve, health, and temperament of this breed has been compromised - in all size dogs. So we can debate size, the Standard (which is not much about temperament but rather physical characteristics), and color until the cows, sheep, ducks, and ewes come home but it all boils down to nerve.
Now Cliff, since that dog of yours is large, and not to your preference, I'll be by shortly to pick him up.


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## Samba

Of course nerve strength loss is terrible. I have not seen a member of any dog breed who faired well with nerve weakness. The German Shepherd is much more than a statuesque vessell of strong nerves though.

I spent my life working closely with surgeons. I have heard the most rational, erudite and logical arguments for doing something wonky a lot of times.


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## tierra nuestra

:thumbup:I'll take above average anyday.


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## Samba

Yes, that is our breed's lot. Everybody likes the outlier. *sigh*


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## tierra nuestra

samba said:


> yes, that is our breed's lot. Everybody likes the outlier. *sigh*


above average temp,above average nerve,above average looks, above average is something to strive for.


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## Debbieg

tierra nuestra said:


> above average temp,above average nerve,above average looks, above average is something to strive for.


Sounds like these days the "Average all round GSD" is the above average and the exception


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## Samba

Well, yes, above average these days I am thinking may not be a real high mark considering the entire pool.

Oh, above average in something other than size. I didn't realize that was what you were referring to! 

Wonder if anyone with oversize dogs would use a 22" tall bitch with exceptional nerve, couch lounging, kid loving and working ability? Not sure how she got all those desirable characteristics being so small and all.


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## RubyTuesday

Samba, has anyone here criticized 22" GSD bitches or insinuated the smaller GSDs are inferior? While tall is my preference, I don't think it's better, just different. I also prefer long stock coats & sables but they're not 'better' just (IMO) more attractive, all other things being equal.

I'd hope that breeders of oversized GSD would use that 22" bitch if there was a compelling reason to use her. I'd also hope the owners of that bitch would consider an oversized GSD if there was a compelling reason to do so. In either case I won't hold my breath.


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## Lucy Dog

Samba said:


> Wonder if anyone with oversize dogs would use a 22" tall bitch with exceptional nerve, couch lounging, kid loving and working ability? Not sure how she got all those desirable characteristics being so small and all.


And that's the problem right there. You wouldn't want to compromise the potential size gene pool with such a "small" bitch.



RubyTuesday said:


> I'd hope that breeders of oversized GSD would use that 22" bitch if there was a compelling reason to use her. I'd also hope the owners of that bitch would consider an oversized GSD if there was a compelling reason to do so. In either case I won't hold my breath.


While I agree with what you're saying, how do these breeders market their large "old fashioned" dogs when the breeding female is this size?


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## selzer

I think it makes more sense, when you are extreme in any way or faulty to breed to correct, not extreme the other way. 22" is within the standard. I would not go out of my way to breed a 22 inch bitch to an over-standard sized dog.


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## RubyTuesday

Lucy, I don't admire the way most people 'market' their dogs which includes the vast majority of SchH breeders who don't formally advertise yet still successfully get the word out about their breeding program far & wide. 

Would I buy from a breeder that used a 22" bitch? Yes, if the breeding appealed to me more than other breedings. Would I take a 22" bitch? Sure, if she resonated with me & was a good match with me & mine. White isn't my preference. Neither is black, but I might someday have a GSD that's black or white if the pup/dog otherwise appeals to me.

I do prefer large (ie tall & lean) & will seek it out if I can get it in addition to the temperament, personality, health & other physical attributes I want (level back, well proportioned, impressive head, good expression & carriage).

Personally, I'd willingly compromise on height if it would eliminate some of the niches/divisions within the breed, but all sides are too entrenched for that.

Those enamored of the standard & its current restriction on height s/b (IMO) more concerned with judges, European & American, that have flouted the standard for years & put up over sized GSD. They should also ask themselves why that happened so frequently? Why did even breed professionals show this bias for over sized GSD? Companion line breeders are an easy target but they don't have squat to do with what happens in show rings & performance venues, yet it was a common complaint that all too often over sized GSD were not simply tolerated but often preferred. Why?


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## Samba

I think too often because of the word "stallion" rather than more important and admirable traits.


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## Franksmom

When I started searching for my pup the word "oversized" wasn't one of the traits I was looking for, I would take any size GSD as long as the temperament and health were what I wanted. 
I made a list of what I wanted talked to different breeders and owners with GSD's and decieded on which breeder I would go with. (which is what I've seen people told to do on this forum many times) She also happens to be one of the oversized breeders , She breeds for Health and Temperament FIRST!, but her dogs are oversized too. 
I'll admit to not finding this forum till after I picked out my pup and brought him home. Would some of the discussions on here about oversized have changed my mind I don't know, I hope not because I have a GSD that fits in with not only my family but what I plan on doing as far as doggy activities with him. 
If every person who wants a GSD is able to get the right dog for them wouldnt' that keep so many from going to rescues and dog pounds. 
If size is the only reason to be against these dogs and from my experience (and I know it's limited) then the the people who are only breeding dogs within the standard maybe missing out on some dogs that could improve the breed.


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## Samba

I don't know of any breeders who throw the baby out with the bath water if a dog slightly over standard has something to contribute. But, then, that situation is not what we are talking about here at all.


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## Whiteshepherds

Samba said:


> I don't know of any breeders who throw the baby out with the bath water if a dog slightly over standard has something to contribute. But, then, that situation is not what we are talking about here at all.


A dog that's one centimeter taller than acceptable is disqualified per the SV breed standard. (if I'm looking at the right translation) 

If that's true, then at the SV no dog over the accepted height would be eligible for the breed survey right?


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## RubyTuesday

Until recent years that's theoretically true, WhiteShepherds, but the height limitation was largely ignored according to posts here & elsewhere. In fact, many people claimed the very tall GSDs were favored over those within the standard. Obviously it's not just pet people responding to ads that like 'em tall.


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## Samba

Yes, the SV had to get strict with the size measurement as the dogs had gotten quite large. The AKC ring big dogs can win.

Now, of course,we can't have it both ways. The Oversize lot are often critical of show breeding. I don't think they want to turn to this breeding model to bolster legitimacy of theirs. That would be an interesting turn of events!


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## Whiteshepherds

RubyTuesday said:


> Until recent years that's theoretically true, WhiteShepherds, but the height limitation was largely ignored according to posts here & elsewhere. In fact, many people claimed the very tall GSDs were favored over those within the standard. Obviously it's not just pet people responding to ads that like 'em tall.


Probably a stupid question but does anyone ever actually measure the dogs when a breed survey is being done? Or in the ring for that matter?


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## selzer

They do for the breed survey, it is written down in the Koer report.


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## RubyTuesday

> Now, of course,we can't have it both ways. The Oversize lot are often critical of show breeding. I don't think they want to turn to this breeding model to bolster legitimacy of theirs. That would be an interesting turn of events!


I'm critical of what many AKC SL breeders strive for and produce. However, there are some exceptional ASL GSD whose breeders are exemplary. Andaka comes immediately to mind. I'm sure that's true of GSL breeders as well. Regardless, I'm not interested in 'bolstering legitimacy'. My GSDs are ideally suited to my circumstances. They're strong, healthy, biddable, smart, discerning, mentally & physically sound & come from long lived, sound, healthy lines. The breeder knows what she wants & has decades of experience & success in consistently producing the GSD she's striving for. That's as legitimate as I need. Others are free to define & pursue their own criteria.

Selzer, handlers/owners have successfully trained their GSD to crouch when measured so they stand shorter than they are. I don't know if the judges have addressed that problem recently or not. Regardless, even recent history amply demonstrates that many GSD handlers, owners & officials frequently liked oversized GSDs & not only tolerated them at events, but often put them up over the smaller dogs. Large, including very large GSDs, are not a recent phenomenon which originated with breeders of pet lines. It's just a shame these admirers of oversized GSD didn't do the right & honest thing & have the current standard reflect this.


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## selzer

My new girl from Germany out of Vegas is certainly not oversized. My girls tend to be at the upper end of the standard or slightly over. And she is smaller than they are though I have not measured her. It is in her Koer report, though I have not translated it from the metric system yet. I doubt if they had to teach her to crouch.


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## RubyTuesday

Selzer, surely you aren't making highly specific extrapolations from very general info. I'm sure all dogs weren't taught to crouch. Perhaps they've even addressed that problem in recent years since they now enforce the standard rather than ignore it.


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## Samba

From my reading, it appears the standards of today for height and the ones prescribed by the breed founder are very similar. That makes them rather old fashioned. What should they be changed to for the modern times?

Are all these different types of GSD a good idea since a breeder can be found amongst any of deemable as "good"?


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## RubyTuesday

The breed founder put up a dog that was 29" which would indicate that large dogs were acceptable at that time. In a true working breed, size variation is (IMO) useful, & s/b expected. American Bulldogs vary greatly in size. Working Pits, rather than fighting Pits, also varied considerably in size. Height for Saluki dogs has a range of 5 inches with bitches proportionately smaller.

More compelling is the actual history of the GSD where judges, owners & breeders often preferred 'em oversized as indicated by the numerous complaints that dogs within the standard were at a competitive disadvantage. I understand the frustration & anger at seeing the rules flagrantly flouted, but it remains clear that despite the 'rules' many people preferred 'em considerably taller than the current standard.

Personally, I think a better solution would have been to amend the standard to (again) permit the taller dogs that are obviously preferred by many. I suspect that preference hasn't evaporated & will render the size enforcement an ongoing & contentious issue. That it wasn't amended doesn't matter much to me. I don't show or compete & quite literally 'don't have a dog in that fight'.


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## Chicagocanine

phgsd said:


> What makes you say that herding instinct is not present in working lines today? Have you worked with many of them in herding?
> 
> IMO - it is definitely still there in many working lines. All 4 of mine have been tested with sheep and passed, and I have trained 2 dogs now in HGH-style herding and both definitely had a lot of instinct.


My W.German show line GSD showed a lot of herding instinct in her instinct test. The trainer thought she was very impressive and had good potential. I haven't done further training because there aren't a lot of sheep in Chicago.


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## selzer

Babsy (>75% GSL, American) passed herding instict as well. They were impressed with her too. I have not gone further with herding because the nearest place that offers it is hundreds of miles away.


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## Samba

Sometimes a large dog is put up as compensation for a trend or issue, especially in the beginnings of type establishment.

Sometimes a large dog has something to offer such that the size can be overlooked as it can be compensated for in later breedings. The putting up of a dog at a particular time does not necessarily infer that the fancy should then go out and breed large and larger.


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## RubyTuesday

Samba, it certainly infers the size is acceptable rather than a disqualification. 

Complaints that dogs considerably over the standard's maximum size were frequently favored over dogs within the standard was common until the last year or 2. There were those who maintained that it was punishingly difficult to do well without dogs who were much taller than permitted under the standard. According to some members oversized (too tall) GSD were not a rare anomaly, they were the order of the day in competition events.

The unpalatable truth is that many people apart from inexperienced pet people preferred a tall GSD over one within the standard. This included judges as well as owners & breeders. That the dogs have been driven from competing doesn't necessarily mean that the preference for 'em has died.


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## Doc

A friend of mine entered his 27 inch bitch in a show and somehow when the judge measured it - whala the bitch was within the standard and placed. Amazing isn't it. And that was just a few short years ago.


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## selzer

If you are talking the showrings in the US, oversize is not a disqualifying fault for shepherds. So I have never seen them actually measure them. So long as a dog is balanced, an oversized dog will beat out a dog that is of less quality overall but within the standard according to height.


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## Doc

It's not disqualifying but the dog isn't to the almighty Standard that everyone touts in here.


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## carmspack

can an oversize dog have the endurance to have continual motion as a herding dog is required to have?
I was watching a youtubey with an oversize "doing herding" in a ring and you could see the animal break down , get fatigued and start pacing . I can find the video if people are interested.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Doc

The Swabian lines are the herders and were also a bigger dog, They could work all day, every day. So I think *originally* the larger dogs were much better "doing herding".
With the lines so mixed in todays world and the loss of valuable genetic diversity, the "herding" has been lost/left out of most bloodlines. I would associate the inability to work so much with size but rather with what the dog is made up of. JMO



carmspack said:


> can an oversize dog have the endurance to have continual motion as a herding dog is required to have?
> I was watching a youtubey with an oversize "doing herding" in a ring and you could see the animal break down , get fatigued and start pacing . I can find the video if people are interested.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer

I think a tall muscular, well built dog with the proper angles should be able to have good endurance. A poorly structured oversized dog with a reach too long or too short, or an overweight dog would have problems.


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## selzer

Doc said:


> It's not disqualifying but the dog isn't to the almighty Standard that everyone touts in here.


And neither is a long coat. All other things being equal, the long coat should land below the properly coated shepherd in the ring. But if the other shepherd is poor in structure, or poor in temperament, the coat should come up on top. Does that ever work in reality? Probably not. I have heard of coaties getting the points, but it seems to be rare.


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## Xeph

To the best of my knowledge, in AKC a judge cannot measure a breed where there is no height disqualification


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## Whiteshepherds

carmspack said:


> I was watching a youtubey with an oversize "doing herding" in a ring and you could see the animal break down , get fatigued and start pacing . I can find the video if people are interested.


I'd like to see it if you can find it again.


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## onyx'girl

What about the deep-chested dog? Can that body style go and go and go? I see that structure and think not.


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## selzer

In horses, don't you want a deep chest for stamina? I do not know if that relates to dog though.


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## Lin

I may be wrong, but I believe a different part of the chest is being discussed on dogs. A deep chested dog refers to the front of the chest, correct? On a horse, deep chested refers to the girth area behind the elbows.

When I think of deep chested in a dog, its similar to what is called pigeon breasted in a horse and is a conformational fault.


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## Wanderer

Okay, I am a long time lurker and had to finally register to comment on this issue. Sorry if I get long winded.

#1 GSD history and herding

In the 1800s there was a general trend to use selective breeding and form a single type of herding dog in Germany which at the time had many regional varieties. From the onset the desire wasn't to create a dog that would work under any conditions for a variety of tasks. The first group to set about doing this was "Phylax" society. Phylax is a term for a Roman Guard, From Ancient Greek φύλαξ (phylax, “watcher, guard, sentinel, guardian, keeper, protector”)

This gives us some insight. To me the name this group chose shows me they are NOT after the best herding dog that can herd in any conditions, but would probably rate 'protector' just as highly if not moreso.

This group fell apart and Max von Stephanitz went forward on his own with the help of one other ex-member. Von Stephanitz was a sheep herder so had intimate knowledge of what was needed in a good sheep dog....NOT! Max von Stephanitz was a Cavalry Officer and a veterinarian. Why would he go about creating a sheep herding dog that could be used on any sheep in any region? Let's look at what the military is doing with dogs around this time period. Dogs are serving: as message delivery systems (dispatch dogs); deliver ammo and supplies to the front lines (in some cases they were tasked with pulling the machine-gun, which at that time was frequently on wheels); run to a wounded man in the crossfire and drag him back to cover by his collar; "ambulance dogs" pulled carts carrying stabilized wounded from the front lines to medical stations; mine detection dogs; patrol dogs; and sentry dogs. Not all these dogs were strictly military, some like the ambulance dogs were trained and deployed by local hospitals or the neutral Red Cross.

The militaries in general didn't keep large supplies of these dogs. In a time of war they went and got dogs from the local populace. Those of Continental Europe tended to favor sheep herding dogs for their intelligence and ability to handle rugged terrain. (the UK favored Airedale terriers) But each country had a great deal of variation of dogs in their regions. Take a look at the little Pyrean Shepard who at 16" at the shoulder and maybe 20 pounds made a real name for itself as wonderful dispatch, bomb, patrol, & sentinel dog, wasn't going to be pulling machine-gun carts, or wounded soldiers out of the crossfire.

I believe the purpose of developing one specific type of herding dog for all of Germany was to create a reservoir of potential military/utility dogs. Hence Max wasn't looking at the best herders but the best multipurpose dogs.

Further, I speculate that in the beginning he was only interested in retaining herding ability so the rural people would keep using this dog, their-by maintaining the reservoir. I speculate that when he concluded that the shepherd's way of life was changing and that there would not be many shepherds and dogs left in a decade or two, he at that point couldn't care less about herding compared to how the dog performed in all the above mentioned 'military rolls' some of which very directly also applied to police and civilian rolls. (The sentry dog becomes the guard dog)

#2 the standard: adherence and deviation. 

The GSD from early in it's creation was designed to be a utility dog, capable of adopting many rolls as well as being a family companion. I don't think Max ever planned on EVERY dog being able to do EVERYTHING, but rather for the population of GSDs as a whole to be good at everything. The World War One military needs dogs? Round up 100 GSDs, because they will be able to fill every roll. However you still need to look at each dog and say 'him this one is bigger, he is going to be the ambulance dog, this one is smarter, he'll make a good courier dog, this one would work great as a sentry dog etc etc.

I think that within the population of GSDs as long as one doesn't specialize so much that the standard is being ignored and moved away from, it is okay if a dog doesn't show aptitude in all areas. The problem happens when GSD line A is so specialized (lets say schutz) and GSD line B (let's say tracking) has flaw to be counterbalanced (Line A in addition to schutz is tight hipped, line B has bad hips) that the hybrid isn't able to do line B work. 

An outside-the-breed example would be certain show lines of Irish setters that are so 'bird dumb' that crossing them with a working line would result in a dog with a fraction of the ability needed, not just some times but pretty much every time.

The standard and adherence to it is what keeps the population as a whole from going too far in one direction. It is okay for segments of the population to be specialized, and okay for dogs to not be great in every roll, but it cannot be specialized so far as to become a ONE roll breed.

Now, the standard spells out some perfect dog, which is never really attained. Every GSD somewhere will fall short, have some area where he could be better. These shortfalls, these 'sins' need to be evaluated. However, the presence of 'sins' in a dog doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a great dog. 

These sins must be taken into account, but the purpose of that dog must also be considered. For a working dog being over-sized or under-sized by a small degree us not much of a sin. Being structurally slightly flawed is probably a bigger issue. In fact, it is good that we have a spread of dogs in all areas. You have some soft, some medium, some hard, and some too hard in temperament. You have some that are too long and too short. If it wasn't for this diversity in the breed you could develop the perfect bomb sniffing dog with the right mix of mindset, physical ability, nose, drive, etc, but if the dog was too small you need those large dogs to cross with to get back on track.

Small deviations from the standard are not a big issue. This is doubly true of deviations that do not affect the dog's job.

It's even okay to have special preferences for features. There is nothing wrong with someone who has working lines who ALSO likes solid black, or bi-color dogs. However, the key is ALSO. I don't want to see someone choose to mate two dogs because they were the largest two dogs they could find, or the two dogs that were the perfect color. Now, if a breeder says 'my line is great in area a, b, and c, but could use some improvement in x, y, and z AND I like bi-color, so I will try and find a bicolor strong in at least two of the areas I lack...or barring that find a dog with a large blanket' that is fine, because the standard AND the preference are being considered. I'd have no problem with a kennel that was producing great working dogs that were frequently over sized by 10 pounds. I'd have a problem with a kennel that was looking to produce the biggest dogs possible as their purpose who finding the biggest specimines around and mating them regardless of how complimentary they were in other areas.

#3 Purpose of standards, dog shows, shutzhund competitions, etc.

The standard doesn't exist just to exist. It exists because adherence to it creates a multipurpose dog. It's like stop signs, they aren't just put up to make people stop, they are put up to create a safe intersection.

It is important when breeding to the standard to not get so bogged down in the minutia you loose sight of the total picture.

Now I am sure I am going over old ground here but please forgive my rehash.

The standard has stayed the same in spirit. It has had clarifications brought in, and sometimes these clarifications have been re-clarified. What changes is which feature of the standard gets the most emphasis. And that isn't always bad. I personally would love to see more points being docked for bad structure and fewer points being docked for bad coloration, missing mask, etc.

The problem is people tend to have blind spots where the things they love are involved. Breeders cannot always honestly evaluate their dogs. This is why conformation events and competitions are needed. In theory this is a test of how well the dog matches the standard and an educated but neutral judge makes the evaluation.

The purpose of the show isn't to win trophies, it is to give information to the breeder. This is also true of the schutzhund competition.

The problems in this area are three-fold.

Problem A: People like to win. Shows are competitions. Soon people move away from viewing the show as a way to get information on how they are doing as a breeder working to a goal yet staying within the standard to being a goal in-and-of itself. Example, breeders whose goal is to produce a showring grand champion, win Westminster, Cruffs, or what have you. If ribbons weren't important and the judge's evaluation was viewed as simply feedback a breeder would return home thinking 'okay, judge noted my dogs who are bred to be great bomb sniffer dogs are a bit big, I should think about finding the best smaller dog with a great nose and smarts...maybe I'll check with some of the guys who are breeding tracker and 'SAR' dogs'

Problem B: Judges can fixate on certain areas of the standard and ignore other areas. This of course means that any breeder who is chasing ribbons as their guiding principle will immediately focus on whatever feature of the standard is given the most weight. Unfortunately right now in the show ring that is gait...more specifically it is the 'flying trot' An over-long dog that is 95 pounds but is a dream to see moving at a trot will win over a more structurally sound 80 pound dog that moves with less grace. If judges adhered to all aspects of the standard equally then people breeding for ribbons would be forced to breed middle-ground dogs in all areas.

Problem C: Our tests (the shows, the competitions) are not perfect. They are a series of compromises. The reason the GSD standard places emphasis on gait, specifically the trot is because a utility dog that is tasked with delivering a message may need to cross 5 or 10 miles of rugged terrain and the faster the better...but that isn't a race you win by sprinting. The patrol dog, the dog driving sheep, the dog trotting along next to a cavalry column, the dog working the road in front of a group of tanks checking for mines, these dogs all don't need the speed of a greyhound but instead need this ground eating trot that can be kept up for hours and hours.

Unfortunately we don't gate-test by having the dog trot for 4 hours straight, it's just not feasible. If we DID a lot of the most majestic trotters wouldn't make it past the 1 hour mark and some of the dogs that look a bit less fluid but actually move with more efficiency would be going strong.

NONE of our tests are perfect. That just can't be helped. This includes schutz. Shy of getting some prisoners out of the federal pen and giving them loaded guns and seeing if they can escape your dog, you just can't run a real test.

However, it isn't just the AKC conformation show lines that have this problem. Yes, too many show line breeders have their purpose 'win ribbons'. But too many breeders of 'working lines' aren't really breeding to work and using schutz as a test, they are breeding for one purpose, to create a dog that will give them the most points in the GAME of schutz. It stops being a test and becomes a purpose in and of itself. This is bad because it is not a perfect replica of the real world. A dog that is great at gaining points is selected above a dog that gets a few less points but is a much better thinker. Heck you can even end up with dogs that go after a sleeve not an attacker (like the Bloodhound that tracks but now has no idea what to do once it actually finds it's quarry, a far cry from St Hubbert's hound which had the best nose of the hound family but would still tree and bay the quarry...or fight it if the opportunity presented itself)

Whew, that was longer than I thought, sorry, I'll go back to lurking now.:wild:


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## cliffson1

Wow, a real German Shepherd person, in both knowledge and insight!!!! That post was a pleasure and sure laid it out the way the breed has evolved and should be. A look at the breed with logic and application instead of feelings and trophies, and conquests.


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## NancyJ

Wanderer said:


> Whew, that was longer than I thought, sorry, I'll go back to lurking now.:wild:


No, dont do THAT (lurk)


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## Catu

Wow Wanderer, that was such a great post, I learned so much from it. Please, please please, keep giving us those treats. I don't care if you become crowned member with 3,000 post of happy birthdays and commenting pictures, but if you delight our eyes with a post like that once every some time, it is enough for me.

I'm saving your post in Word...


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## Debbieg

Awesome post! I am saving it too


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## Wanderer

Well thanks guys. To be honest, I have owned GSDs in the past, and I may own them in the future, but there are so many interesting and great breeds that I find myself drawn to the less known. In fact many of the breeds I find most interesting are likely ones that contributed to the founding stock of the GSD (Bohemian shepherd, Alpine shepherd, old german shepherd)

Die Hütehundschläge - AAH-Arbeitsgemeinschaft zur Zucht Altdeutscher Hütehunde take a look.

Anyways, as I mentioned an individual breeder can often have a blind spot with his own dog, maybe my distance has given me a slightly better perspective.

But right now the GSD community seems to be the biggest enemy of the GSD, those going for show ribbons, Schutz points, oversized for the sake of 'bigger must be better', fixating on colors, etc.

Often I get frustrated when Schutz types have that same list but for some reason leave themselves off of it. You concentrate too much on one thing...INCLUDING too much on winning any contest you will eventually loose the ability to have a dog that can do this






To me the brains displayed there are true GSD brains, a trait that will get lost if sleeve grabbing points is priority one, and then you will be in the end left with a shadow of what was. (look at the Collie to see a dog that was once great and intelligent but is now an empty shell of what it once was, a shell with a poofy coat. None of those dogs are going to be rescuing Timmy from the well)


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## codmaster

Wanderer said:


> Okay, I am a long time lurker and had to finally register to comment on this issue. Sorry if I get long winded.
> 
> #1 GSD history and herding
> 
> In the 1800s there was a general trend to use selective breeding and form a single type of herding dog in Germany which at the time had many regional varieties. From the onset the desire wasn't to create a dog that would work under any conditions for a variety of tasks. The first group to set about doing this was "Phylax" society. Phylax is a term for a Roman Guard, From Ancient Greek φύλαξ (phylax, “watcher, guard, sentinel, guardian, keeper, protector”)
> 
> This gives us some insight. To me the name this group chose shows me they are NOT after the best herding dog that can herd in any conditions, but would probably rate 'protector' just as highly if not moreso.
> 
> This group fell apart and Max von Stephanitz went forward on his own with the help of one other ex-member. Von Stephanitz was a sheep herder so had intimate knowledge of what was needed in a good sheep dog....NOT! Max von Stephanitz was a Cavalry Officer and a veterinarian. Why would he go about creating a sheep herding dog that could be used on any sheep in any region? Let's look at what the military is doing with dogs around this time period. Dogs are serving: as message delivery systems (dispatch dogs); deliver ammo and supplies to the front lines (in some cases they were tasked with pulling the machine-gun, which at that time was frequently on wheels); run to a wounded man in the crossfire and drag him back to cover by his collar; "ambulance dogs" pulled carts carrying stabilized wounded from the front lines to medical stations; mine detection dogs; patrol dogs; and sentry dogs. Not all these dogs were strictly military, some like the ambulance dogs were trained and deployed by local hospitals or the neutral Red Cross.
> 
> The militaries in general didn't keep large supplies of these dogs. In a time of war they went and got dogs from the local populace. Those of Continental Europe tended to favor sheep herding dogs for their intelligence and ability to handle rugged terrain. (the UK favored Airedale terriers) But each country had a great deal of variation of dogs in their regions. Take a look at the little Pyrean Shepard who at 16" at the shoulder and maybe 20 pounds made a real name for itself as wonderful dispatch, bomb, patrol, & sentinel dog, wasn't going to be pulling machine-gun carts, or wounded soldiers out of the crossfire.
> 
> I believe the purpose of developing one specific type of herding dog for all of Germany was to create a reservoir of potential military/utility dogs. Hence Max wasn't looking at the best herders but the best multipurpose dogs.
> 
> Further, I speculate that in the beginning he was only interested in retaining herding ability so the rural people would keep using this dog, their-by maintaining the reservoir. I speculate that when he concluded that the shepherd's way of life was changing and that there would not be many shepherds and dogs left in a decade or two, he at that point couldn't care less about herding compared to how the dog performed in all the above mentioned 'military rolls' some of which very directly also applied to police and civilian rolls. (The sentry dog becomes the guard dog)
> 
> #2 the standard: adherence and deviation.
> 
> The GSD from early in it's creation was designed to be a utility dog, capable of adopting many rolls as well as being a family companion. I don't think Max ever planned on EVERY dog being able to do EVERYTHING, but rather for the population of GSDs as a whole to be good at everything. The World War One military needs dogs? Round up 100 GSDs, because they will be able to fill every roll. However you still need to look at each dog and say 'him this one is bigger, he is going to be the ambulance dog, this one is smarter, he'll make a good courier dog, this one would work great as a sentry dog etc etc.
> 
> I think that within the population of GSDs as long as one doesn't specialize so much that the standard is being ignored and moved away from, it is okay if a dog doesn't show aptitude in all areas. The problem happens when GSD line A is so specialized (lets say schutz) and GSD line B (let's say tracking) has flaw to be counterbalanced (Line A in addition to schutz is tight hipped, line B has bad hips) that the hybrid isn't able to do line B work.
> 
> An outside-the-breed example would be certain show lines of Irish setters that are so 'bird dumb' that crossing them with a working line would result in a dog with a fraction of the ability needed, not just some times but pretty much every time.
> 
> The standard and adherence to it is what keeps the population as a whole from going too far in one direction. It is okay for segments of the population to be specialized, and okay for dogs to not be great in every roll, but it cannot be specialized so far as to become a ONE roll breed.
> 
> Now, the standard spells out some perfect dog, which is never really attained. Every GSD somewhere will fall short, have some area where he could be better. These shortfalls, these 'sins' need to be evaluated. However, the presence of 'sins' in a dog doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a great dog.
> 
> These sins must be taken into account, but the purpose of that dog must also be considered. For a working dog being over-sized or under-sized by a small degree us not much of a sin. Being structurally slightly flawed is probably a bigger issue. In fact, it is good that we have a spread of dogs in all areas. You have some soft, some medium, some hard, and some too hard in temperament. You have some that are too long and too short. If it wasn't for this diversity in the breed you could develop the perfect bomb sniffing dog with the right mix of mindset, physical ability, nose, drive, etc, but if the dog was too small you need those large dogs to cross with to get back on track.
> 
> Small deviations from the standard are not a big issue. This is doubly true of deviations that do not affect the dog's job.
> 
> It's even okay to have special preferences for features. There is nothing wrong with someone who has working lines who ALSO likes solid black, or bi-color dogs. However, the key is ALSO. I don't want to see someone choose to mate two dogs because they were the largest two dogs they could find, or the two dogs that were the perfect color. Now, if a breeder says 'my line is great in area a, b, and c, but could use some improvement in x, y, and z AND I like bi-color, so I will try and find a bicolor strong in at least two of the areas I lack...or barring that find a dog with a large blanket' that is fine, because the standard AND the preference are being considered. I'd have no problem with a kennel that was producing great working dogs that were frequently over sized by 10 pounds. I'd have a problem with a kennel that was looking to produce the biggest dogs possible as their purpose who finding the biggest specimines around and mating them regardless of how complimentary they were in other areas.
> 
> #3 Purpose of standards, dog shows, shutzhund competitions, etc.
> 
> The standard doesn't exist just to exist. It exists because adherence to it creates a multipurpose dog. It's like stop signs, they aren't just put up to make people stop, they are put up to create a safe intersection.
> 
> It is important when breeding to the standard to not get so bogged down in the minutia you loose sight of the total picture.
> 
> Now I am sure I am going over old ground here but please forgive my rehash.
> 
> The standard has stayed the same in spirit. It has had clarifications brought in, and sometimes these clarifications have been re-clarified. What changes is which feature of the standard gets the most emphasis. And that isn't always bad. I personally would love to see more points being docked for bad structure and fewer points being docked for bad coloration, missing mask, etc.
> 
> The problem is people tend to have blind spots where the things they love are involved. Breeders cannot always honestly evaluate their dogs. This is why conformation events and competitions are needed. In theory this is a test of how well the dog matches the standard and an educated but neutral judge makes the evaluation.
> 
> The purpose of the show isn't to win trophies, it is to give information to the breeder. This is also true of the schutzhund competition.
> 
> The problems in this area are three-fold.
> 
> Problem A: People like to win. Shows are competitions. Soon people move away from viewing the show as a way to get information on how they are doing as a breeder working to a goal yet staying within the standard to being a goal in-and-of itself. Example, breeders whose goal is to produce a showring grand champion, win Westminster, Cruffs, or what have you. If ribbons weren't important and the judge's evaluation was viewed as simply feedback a breeder would return home thinking 'okay, judge noted my dogs who are bred to be great bomb sniffer dogs are a bit big, I should think about finding the best smaller dog with a great nose and smarts...maybe I'll check with some of the guys who are breeding tracker and 'SAR' dogs'
> 
> Problem B: Judges can fixate on certain areas of the standard and ignore other areas. This of course means that any breeder who is chasing ribbons as their guiding principle will immediately focus on whatever feature of the standard is given the most weight. Unfortunately right now in the show ring that is gait...more specifically it is the 'flying trot' An over-long dog that is 95 pounds but is a dream to see moving at a trot will win over a more structurally sound 80 pound dog that moves with less grace. If judges adhered to all aspects of the standard equally then people breeding for ribbons would be forced to breed middle-ground dogs in all areas.
> 
> Problem C: Our tests (the shows, the competitions) are not perfect. They are a series of compromises. The reason the GSD standard places emphasis on gait, specifically the trot is because a utility dog that is tasked with delivering a message may need to cross 5 or 10 miles of rugged terrain and the faster the better...but that isn't a race you win by sprinting. The patrol dog, the dog driving sheep, the dog trotting along next to a cavalry column, the dog working the road in front of a group of tanks checking for mines, these dogs all don't need the speed of a greyhound but instead need this ground eating trot that can be kept up for hours and hours.
> 
> Unfortunately we don't gate-test by having the dog trot for 4 hours straight, it's just not feasible. If we DID a lot of the most majestic trotters wouldn't make it past the 1 hour mark and some of the dogs that look a bit less fluid but actually move with more efficiency would be going strong.
> 
> NONE of our tests are perfect. That just can't be helped. This includes schutz. Shy of getting some prisoners out of the federal pen and giving them loaded guns and seeing if they can escape your dog, you just can't run a real test.
> 
> However, it isn't just the AKC conformation show lines that have this problem. Yes, too many show line breeders have their purpose 'win ribbons'. But too many breeders of 'working lines' aren't really breeding to work and using schutz as a test, they are breeding for one purpose, to create a dog that will give them the most points in the GAME of schutz. It stops being a test and becomes a purpose in and of itself. This is bad because it is not a perfect replica of the real world. A dog that is great at gaining points is selected above a dog that gets a few less points but is a much better thinker. Heck you can even end up with dogs that go after a sleeve not an attacker (like the Bloodhound that tracks but now has no idea what to do once it actually finds it's quarry, a far cry from St Hubbert's hound which had the best nose of the hound family but would still tree and bay the quarry...or fight it if the opportunity presented itself)
> 
> Whew, that was longer than I thought, sorry, I'll go back to lurking now.:wild:


Wanderer, 

GREAT Post! Do NOT go back to just lurking!

A couple of thoughts (brought on by your well spoken post).

Interesting speculation in a number of areas about the "why" and some decisions that went on hidden in the minds of the originator of the GSD breed. Doesn't have any impact now on the GSD but interesting about something that impacted the early breed specimens and probably also impacted the gene pool.

However, before we knock the conformation show folks too much - I think that one has to separate the "show" people who do not breed but only show dogs that they have obtained from a breeder or such, from the folks who actually select and breed themselves. Often the former are more into showing as a competetive sport than the actual breeders.

And don't knock the show judges until and unless you know what was entered and shown under them - a judge can not put up a dog that is not entered and actually shown under them on that day. They must pick the best of the dogs that they see on that day! Yes, they can withhold a first place or other awards and some actually do so if the dogs shown are not of sufficient quality.

Of course, there is no perfect dog - I suspect that any reasonable GSD person would recognize that fact. The standard is a GOAL to be striven toward.

Of course, one must also recognize that the harder we strive to an unobtainable goal the more likely we are to come closer to it.

Size not conforming to the standard IS a structural fault.

Regarding the advent of dogs that are "sleeve happy", I always thought and was taught that ScH IS a game and not the same as police or other "life and death" protection work. Why else would a ScH dog be taught to grab the sleeve rather than anything or any piece of the decoy that he could get a hold of? In one club I belonged to, the helper almost never wore a full bite suit, just a sleeve and hand guard. Not so in police K9 training.

"An over-long dog that is 95 pounds but is a dream to see moving at a trot ...."

Very unlikely that an over sized, over long, too heavy dog would be able to move correctly, esp. over a long perion.

"An outside-the-breed example would be certain show lines of Irish setters that are so 'bird dumb' that crossing them with a working line would result in a dog with a fraction of the ability needed, not just some times but pretty much every time."

Sounds like here you are speculating that "Birdiness" in Irish setters is a recessive gene in that a cross between a dog that has it with a dog that doesn't would almost always result in progeny are without it? Where did your knowledge about this come from?

Are you saying that you think that any of the desirable traits in GSD's are also a recessive
trait - i.e. protectiveness, courage, herding, good nerves, aloofness, etc. etc.

Very true about no dog being perfect and that we need to consider all aspects of the standard when selecting breeding partners. And also that no single GSD would be good for all possible jobs that the GSD breed is very good at.


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