# Neutering: When and Why?



## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

SO SO SO many opinions on this. I’m a two year old guy when done with puberty. Daycare is an issue though after six months. 

What a your philosophy and why?
Thanks 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you (general you, not you personally) are going to neuter, my preference would be not before 2. I have a 6 yr old intact male. Never had an issue. He marked in a store one time, I set him up the next time and corrected him. Issue over. No temperament issues at all that people claim come with intact males. Bottom line for me is if you are a responsible person that can keep your dog from breeding unintentionally and not breed irresponsibly, then there is no reason to neuter and it's a personal choice.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

My opinion has changed from early neuter to waiting until they're a few years old ......hoping that keeping the hormones around longer in this breed that's known for dysplasia and arthritis will maybe help joints develop better and just might help them have less issues later in life...and you're right spay/neuter ranks right up there with the ongoing great dog food debate....and of course there's always those opinions out there on very early spay for females trying to avoid mammary cancer...nowadays there's some experts "study" on every thing pick a subject.. there's likely one out there with results on the best way to breath air....just sayin'


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think alot of the health issues are just dumb luck along with the specific genetics on the dog you get. We spayed a Boxer early. She lived to be 13, which is unheard of for Boxers. 2nd female Boxer, spayed at 3 years. She was over 12. Both backyard bred dogs with no pedigree history. Boxers just don't live past 10 years but both of ours did with quality of life until a few months before the end.

My Jax - adopted out of a shelter. Spayed at 4-6 months. Supposedly a GSD/BC mix. HD, torn acl, died of hemangio at just 10 years. We hit all the big 3 on the early spay list of correlations.

All minimal vaccinations. Boxers at kibble. Jax ate raw. I did everything "right" and still lost her early.

So while I firmly believe there is a correlation, I think there are other unknown factors that play into that as well.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I also do not neuter unless a medical reason came up. 

I hear you on the daycare care. I mean, I do not do dog daycare. It's against my philosophies on dog life (random group dog play) but there are other things that we have been excluded from due to my dog's sporting their Devil's Acorns. There are a few bars in South NJ that allow you to bring your dogs, and there are leashed only areas (like patios) ...but no intact males allowed. No Yappy hour at Bark In The Park for you!! And there is a 1.50 surcharge per testicle on the dog license. LOL

You can actually save money by having someone come in midday and spend a half hour letting your dog out, feeding him if needed, etc. Most dog walkers around here in a suburb of NYC charge 15 to 25 per half hour visit. Dog daycare around here is 45 to 60 per day. I am way more comfortable getting to know a personal dog caretaker. I have a college age sitter who charges 25 per day to hang out with my dogs if I have a long day, and she charges 50 per 24 hours if it involves an overnight. Boarding at a kennel runs about 60 to 90 a night. So it is a no brainer for me.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

My Boxer Hound mix Bo. He stayed with my ex after we divorced. BUT he was neutered at 6 months (shelter dog). He has never been to the vet except for vaccines. He is 11 and still chasing down skunk and groundhogs in my ex's yard. He has perfected skunk killing without getting sprayed. They circle face to face and duel until Bo goes in lighting quick for a head grab. Then I have had early spay dogs that had early incontinence, early neuter dogs that had behavioral issues. They have hunches, they have some evidence here and there, but I think a lot more into a dog's projected timeline genetics wise, over what is done to them.

That said, if things aren't broken I don't fix them. I don't know why anyone would think there are not ramifications from a pediatric neuter. Hormones contribute so much more to growth than just sexuality. Brain development, bone development. Hormones are the messengers that turn things on and off at the right time. So me personally I don't neuter at all..but if I did it would be after age 2.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Our older dog was neutered at 6 months. He is oversized, has always had problems with his weight and now has joint issues. It's a constant struggle to keep him at a decent weight.

Our younger dog at 6 is intact. There have been no problems whatsoever with him. No marking, no aggression, no running off to find females, nothing that "people" claim would happen. He's a great dog and very healthy.

We had a female, spayed at 4 months who had the worst hips our vet had ever seen. She died at the ripe old age of 3 from hemangio.

Another male we had was neutered young and tore his ACL. He was just running easily across the yard when that happened. He was also taller than the standard.

To me, neutering is completely unnecessary. I've learned my lessons, thanks to this forum. The only exception for me would be for a medical issue that could not be solved any other way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The hips and acl correlation makes sense to me. Early spay/neuter makes them leggy, putting stress on the ligaments. Take away the growth hormones, bones don't grow correctly.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There is no doubt that the genetics a dog is born with plays a huge role in that dog's health. Poor conformation alone can take its toll on joints. There is undoubtedly a strong genetic component to behavior, cancers, and other health conditions. 

When considering neutering, you have to think of it as something that may compound a dog's inherent predisposition to behavior and health issues. 

One thing a lot of people fail to think about when deciding on the best age to neuter is that hormones play a major, synergistic role in health until a dog's final days. Waiting until two years of age helps with joint problems due to unnatural growth caused by early neutering but hormones continue to have an impact on joint health beyond the growth period and that is only one example among many.

My personal preference is to keep my dogs intact unless a health condition forces my hand. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## wolfmonte (Aug 28, 2019)

I wait till 2 years or more. However, if male is exceptional, I will keep him intact and may use as stud. I have seen many dogs who lost their drive or had health complications when neutered before 1 year. Moreover, if you have a well-trained dog, hormones shouldn't be a big problem. I may sound ignorant, but to me they feel less "Dog" when neutered too soon.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There is no need to neuter a dog. It is promoted by vets to make money. I am willing to bet there are no male members on this forum who have been neutered.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

All my previous dogs were adopted as adult females already spayed. My childhood dog was spay at 6 months. They led good lives. It wasn't until I started researching GSDs from good breeders that I found out about delayed de-sexing. My almost 6 year old male is still intact. He doesn't roam and has never had an oops litter. He does love love love the scent of a sweet young thing, which can be annoying, but other than that he is great. Well, he did get a rash on his testicles that took awhile to heal. That wasn't pleasant. 

My female went through 2 heats and got de-sexed at 18 months. I had been considering an ovary sparing spay but when she was in her 2nd heat, our poor boy cried for a week and a half and my gal was bored being locked up in her crate most of the day for nearly a month. For all our sanity, that was a good time to get her snipped.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't have an issue spaying an adult female. I think the real risk of pyometra as an adult outweighs the hormones. I do wonder if there is a hormone replacement for dogs like there is for people.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Most intact males really do act different in a social setting and it can be a problem. I've had plenty of boarding and daycare dogs who may have remained happily social if they had been neutered early but lost it because of staying intact. I've talked to professionals who run huge programs with group social dog experience who say the same. 

Some can kind of resocialize after neutering as adults and have some luck.

My 4 y/o male shepherd is still intact and he does better socially than most. He will still play very nicely with neutered males.

My lab is a little over 16 mo and I just neutered him. I had planned to get him to 2 but there was some weird stuff starting between him and my older male. They have never had a fight but the dynamic was changing and I know my older male can be totally fine with adult neutered males so I decided to go ahead and do it for the sake of our family dynamic.

I came *this* close to cancelling the surgery because they just seemed fine and I thought this is stupid and then my husband reminded me how many times I had commented "I don't think we are going to make it to 2 with this one"

It's too soon from his surgery to really know how it will effect the dynamic but I am watching curiously.

I want my dogs healthy...this pup is one of the healthiest and hardiest I've ever had. OFA prelims were good/normal. Tons of health testing behind him. He is active and healthy weight. Wish I could have kept his nuts longer but if it had made for more tension in my house I just don't think it's worth it. I do not want a crate and rotate life ESPECIALLY since one is a service dog! Just no.

His breeder recommended to neuter at 1yr, and we made it longer than that, so...

If your dogs have a different social life, don't play with many new dogs, it probably wouldn't effect you at all.

My position is...do the best you can within reason and gowever its safe and sensible for your and your dog's life.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

Both my boys have all their gear. One is AKC that I plan on trialing with and the other a dobie gsd mix. They haven’t had any issues with marking and have their dog friends too, but are definitely not overly social with people or strange dogs. Which is fine by me.

My female is spayed and they don’t come into contact with intact females. If they were to by an off chance in public they are under restraint. I haven’t seen any reason to neuter them in my situation.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is no need to neuter a dog. It is promoted by vets to make money. I am willing to bet there are no male members on this forum who have been neutered.


Because of our egos, we just call it marriage. Combined with age, the results are comparable.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Because of our egos, we just call it marriage. Combined with age, the results are comparable.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I don't have an issue spaying an adult female. I think the real risk of pyometra as an adult outweighs the hormones. I do wonder if there is a hormone replacement for dogs like there is for people.


Does Pyometra affect the ovaries or is it just a uterine infection? I know with people a lot of uterine woes and risks are avoided by partial hysterectomy ..which is basically ovary sparing.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Because of our egos, we just call it marriage. Combined with age, the results are comparable.



Wise man, wise man


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## AlphaHunter (Aug 21, 2019)

I have to ask if anyone here has ever dealt with spay incontinence? It will make its appearance gradually after the spay surgery. The cause is the fact that it is a total hysterectomy which means estrogen drastically drops so, the urethra sphincter muscles weaken. The cause is lack of estrogen hormones. 

Anyone deal with this issue? 

Did you just live with it, or treat it? You can try hormone replacement. There are other prescriptions that reduce the leaks too. 

It's not a harmful condition, but it surely is messy and annoying. I've known of a few people that have dogs with spay incontinence.

I'm now wondering if doing a tubal ligation to keep everything intact is a better option. That would preserve the ovaries, keeping the hormones running as nature intended, but you prevent potential of pregnancies. Yeah, there are risks, but let's be clear here that a spay surgery, despite having become like a rite of passage, being so routine, is still a seriously invasive surgical procedure. I don't take spay or neuter surgery lightly. 

I'm still all for spay and neuter for the majority of dog owners out there. Fact is, most people aren't that responsible, so their dogs should be spay/neutered from the get go. For the rest of us that have a clue here, we can make that determination to spay neuter sooner or later ourselves. I will say living with an intact male dog sometimes is no issue at all. It does depend on individual factors. However, living with an intact female dog is another story. It's not something I willingly want to manage, but it's not that difficult to deal with heat cycles + keep your female constantly supervised at that time. I've known of breeders that have several intact dogs that have never had accidental pregnancies, or behavior issues. Yet, for the general public here in the USA, I have no faith in the responsibility of most people so, I encourage spay neuter, period. 

Interestingly in Norway, neutering is generally considered inhumane so, dogs are left intact. I think in Sweden it's also common for dogs to be left intact. But mentioning Norway, here's a link as evidence, so you all know I'm not making this up --> 

https://jennifermargulis.net/norwegians-believe-spaying-or-neutering-a-dog-is-cruel/

https://sciencenorway.no/animal-welfare-forskningno-norway/should-dogs-be-neutered/1419580


Anyways, about spay incontinence??? Have you dealt with this issue?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3 Spayed females - no incontinence.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CometDog said:


> Does Pyometra affect the ovaries or is it just a uterine infection? I know with people a lot of uterine woes and risks are avoided by partial hysterectomy ..which is basically ovary sparing.


I think it's a uterine infection only?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Our Boxer went through the incontinence for a while. It was a long time ago, but it came down to spaying her too early. The meds controlled it, and I don't remember the exact time frame, but she was weened off it and I guess, out grew the problem by the time she was a year old or so.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I have had 2 females with incontinence ..Chihuahua and mutt. Both spayed as puppies. Both had incontinence start around age 2. I do not know if it was related to the spay though, it was long ago. I just know they use to leak urine when laying down and often would not make it to the door to ask to go out. 

However all my friends and family throughout my life with early spayed females - only 2 had this issue. A husky mix and a Golden (that may have had another condition) And we are talking a lot of dogs. So I would say it is the exception rather than the rule were I forced to make a choice. If I was not going to breed I would spay a female once she hit maturity.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Our Boxer went through the incontinence for a while. It was a long time ago, but it came down to spaying her too early. The meds controlled it, and I don't remember the exact time frame, but she was weened off it and I guess, out grew the problem by the time she was a year old or so.



hmmm...Banshee did have some kind of incontinence for a couple of months years after she was spayed. But it didn't last. So, I guess my answer is still no, we haven't dealt with it. I"m thinking that it would be a long term condition?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I'm sure it not only comes down to hormones, but skill of surgery. I know people who dealt with post pelvic/reproductive surgery deal with post surgical incontinence that resolved over time.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It wasn't long term for her. It never came back. That was around 1994 or 5 though. Memory has faded along with testosterone.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Memory has faded along with testosterone.


I hear neutering will fix that.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I hear neutering will fix that.


Will it bring back my hairline, abs, and formerly upright posture?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I hear neutering will fix that.


Surgery - 3,000.00
Neuticles - 2,000.00
Helping rid the world of testosterone- priceless.

For everything else there is master card

I am officially flagging myself off this thread before I get too silly...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Will it bring back my hairline, abs, and formerly upright posture?


Ain't nothin' short of a good surgeon fixing that.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe Doc having pannus is a good thing. He probably can't clearly see who's holding his leash.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> There is no need to neuter a dog. It is promoted by vets to make money. I am willing to bet there are no male members on this forum who have been neutered.


I do not agree with that in the least. At least in the US from what I've seen the far majority of owners are crazy irresponsible and their dogs will knock up others or get pregnant themselves if they aren't altered. Or they'll got talked into at least one litter if they're intact. I don't know how many people I've heard say they would've bred their dog if they hadn't already been spayed/neutered when they got them. These are often mutts or possible purebred dogs of totally unknown background. I may not agree with pediatric neutering but it has stopped a lot of dogs from getting bred. With the designer dogs craze there was a huge huge puppy boom here and any intact dog pretty much it seemed was getting bred making super mutts and selling them for $400-$3000 dollars. Or tons of cheap byb purebred litters. I'd see countless litters of german shepherds getting pumped out and I routinely see them rehomed at about 8 months old. 

And in nearly all the litters the people ended up with 2-3 puppies they couldn't get rid of to save their butts because there were so many puppies in the market. 

Additionally pyometra is a very real thing.

I personally will wait to alter my female dogs until 2 and I'm not sure if I'll neuter my males or not.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

https://www.purinaproclub.com/resou...shepherd-dogs-increase-risk-of-joint-problems


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

AlphaHunter said:


> I have to ask if anyone here has ever dealt with spay incontinence? It will make its appearance gradually after the spay surgery. The cause is the fact that it is a total hysterectomy which means estrogen drastically drops so, the urethra sphincter muscles weaken. The cause is lack of estrogen hormones.
> 
> Anyone deal with this issue?
> 
> ...



Seven female dogs, all spayed, no incontinence. 

The youngest of them is a dog that was a repeat guest at the shelter. She was first adopted out at a couple months old. She was spayed before they let her go. 

The latest spay is a beagle bitch that I got from my breeder after she had one litter. I had her spayed at about 2.5 years old with zero ill effects.

And yes, this is major surgery. There is no such thing as routine surgery.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If they develop a problem in their reproductive parts, and the best solution at that point is to alter, that is when I believe in altering a dog. 

When I acquire a dog, when I make the decision to get a dog, than I am making the decision to get an animal with hair and ears, a tail, and hormones, character/personality, and all of that. I buy/acquire the entire animal. I prefer to keep them that way. The beauty of a GSD is that to have them appear like the breed standard, you do not need to dock their tails or carve up their ears. I don't hack off testicles either. 

If I choose to have a boy, then I want those testicles there. Because hormones are for more than growth. I think an intact dog develops a little different both in character and physically than his neutered brothers. I prefer the dog that makes it to sexual maturity with his nads on board. And, then why nick them? I can't think of a single reason to spay or neuter a critter that holds any water for me except if they have a physical problem with the plumbing. And even then, usually treating the infection or whatever the problem is, would be the first course of action. 

I have never experienced mammary cancer or pyometra in my girls or testicular cancer in my boys. My first litter would have been 14 in August, and Babsy passed away in May. So she did not make it. She was intact. Jenna was almost 13, and intact. Heidi just turned 13 and is intact. Odessa I imported. She will be 12 in October and was spayed at almost 8 because she came up empty, and had never expelled any fluid prior to the C-section. So the fluid in her uterine horns might have become infected. I was not going to try for another litter, so I had her spayed. She looks great at this point. I hope she makes it to 14 or even older. 

If others find having seasons difficult and want to spay for convenience, that's fine. I would hope they would wait until the bitch is at least 18 months, so that most of her growth is done and the growth plates are closed. I just see no reason to spay.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Because of our egos, we just call it marriage. Combined with age, the results are comparable.



You speak the naked truth.


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## Soakette (Jan 6, 2019)

If my guys testicles had actually descended we wouldnt be neutering him. They are Both up there so we are getting him neutered at about a year old.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Neutering a dog is kind of like pulling all your teeth so you won't get cavities.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Thanks for all the insight and rationale. Frisco had his first doggie daycare day yesterday and the owner gave me an earful on neutering at 6 months. I told her I was a big believer in waiting until puberty has completed or two plus years old. She proceeded to question me with "Why's" and "What's" - basically telling me there is more downside to waiting. I don't plan on debating with her on this topic. She's very opinionated and strong minded. I like her though, she is a GSD person, had 9 in her lifetime and just lost the last. Frisco was very therapeutic for her yesterday and again today. She said he was an exceptional GSD and was blown away by his temperament and obedience for a 15 week old. She is contacting my breeder. Felt good to have someone who runs a daycare with 50 dogs a day and a self proclaimed GSD expert gushing over him and tell me he was exceptional.

Anyhow, enough gloating. I do need coverage every now and then. A day or two a week. Someone above was down on doggie daycare. Besides being a necessity as well as kenneling for a vacation, I don't see what the issue is. Dogs love to play with dogs. Sure beats sitting in a crate all day or laying on the kitchen floor all day. And yes, I play with him as much as possible outside. 

He came home exhausted last night and this morning he ran in the place like he owns it.

I so hope I can find a daycare that takes in tact males.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

There are solid reasons dog day cares don't want to take in intact males/females. I can understand those reasons. 

Spaying at 2 years old is a good idea for any non-breeding female. 

There is little reason to neuter a male dog if you are responsible. Only issue that might improve is male-male aggression.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Saco said:


> There are solid reasons dog day cares don't want to take in intact males/females. I can understand those reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Agreed, I totally get the 6 month rule. If I had brought my adult female dog to daycare, I wouldn’t want it getting pounded by a 100lb GSD lol. I know there are other reasons too. 

I agree on little reason to neuter except that my options are going to limited in terms of kenneling and daycare. I still won’t budge. 


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

For boarding an intact male GSD I'd look into kennels operated by sport people- there are a lot in the Boston/metro area so you should be able to find a boarding facility to accept him. Dog daycare? Not so sure on that.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Kazel said:


> I do not agree with that in the least. At least in the US from what I've seen the far majority of owners are crazy irresponsible and their dogs will knock up others or get pregnant themselves if they aren't altered. Or they'll got talked into at least one litter if they're intact. I don't know how many people I've heard say they would've bred their dog if they hadn't already been spayed/neutered when they got them. These are often mutts or possible purebred dogs of totally unknown background. I may not agree with pediatric neutering but it has stopped a lot of dogs from getting bred. With the designer dogs craze there was a huge huge puppy boom here and any intact dog pretty much it seemed was getting bred making super mutts and selling them for $400-$3000 dollars. Or tons of cheap byb purebred litters. I'd see countless litters of german shepherds getting pumped out and I routinely see them rehomed at about 8 months old.
> 
> And in nearly all the litters the people ended up with 2-3 puppies they couldn't get rid of to save their butts because there were so many puppies in the market.
> 
> ...



That is a "stupid" problem, not a testicular problem.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think more and more ppl in boarding and daycare are taking intact dogs...

I take them at any age but if they can't socialize with other dogs then they just go for exercise with humans only. But we don't do all dogs out together all the time like some places

Ask around.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> That is a "stupid" problem, not a testicular problem.


I don't disagree with that. It is definitely the fault of irresponsible owners. But that's what veterinarians and cities deal with and that's why there is such a huge spay/neuter campaign. 

If owners were more responsible I'd be all for less spaying and neutering. But right now I don't advocate for waiting or not spaying with people I know unless I know they're responsible enough to keep them intact. I mean we're talking about people who take a dog to the shelter because they never potty trained it or trained it in any way besides that. Or it ran off and they don't feel like going and getting it from the shelter. 

A lot of people can't handle training a dog to not run off because it's bored let alone training it not to run off because it smells a female down the street. I and one of my coworkers have both had to deal with male dogs basically living at our house while the females are in heat. Some neutered dogs do it too but at least they can't knock the girls up. And the owners of the dogs do nothing, they don't care. I live in an area with hawks, bears, mountains lions and who knows what else and people let their little tiny dogs wander around. So there is a legitimate need for spaying and neutering until public perception of dog ownership is changed. Which I'm not very hopeful about.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Frisco19 said:


> Thanks for all the insight and rationale. Frisco had his first doggie daycare day yesterday and the owner gave me an earful on neutering at 6 months. I told her I was a big believer in waiting until puberty has completed or two plus years old. She proceeded to question me with "Why's" and "What's" - basically telling me there is more downside to waiting. I don't plan on debating with her on this topic. She's very opinionated and strong minded. I like her though, she is a GSD person, had 9 in her lifetime and just lost the last. Frisco was very therapeutic for her yesterday and again today. She said he was an exceptional GSD and was blown away by his temperament and obedience for a 15 week old. She is contacting my breeder. Felt good to have someone who runs a daycare with 50 dogs a day and a self proclaimed GSD expert gushing over him and tell me he was exceptional.
> 
> Anyhow, enough gloating. I do need coverage every now and then. A day or two a week. Someone above was down on doggie daycare. Besides being a necessity as well as kenneling for a vacation, I don't see what the issue is. Dogs love to play with dogs. Sure beats sitting in a crate all day or laying on the kitchen floor all day. And yes, I play with him as much as possible outside.
> 
> ...


We take Jack to doggie daycare once a week and he's still got his nuts. So they exist. Just find one that matches up temperaments well. From what I've learned, Jack prefers to play with females and submissive males (neutered status doesn't really matter so long as they're sufficiently submissive and show it). If they aren't submissive, he just isn't interested in playing with them and they aren't interested in playing with him. They'll avoid each other.

So, the staff just put him with the spayed females and all is well.

There's also a misnomer that dogs at doggie daycare are random. They aren't, because it's a facility frequented by people nearby. So, there will usually be the same clientele each week and your dog will get to know them and be happy to see them.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

I believe in spay/neuter for the general public. We’d have a LOT more dogs in shelters otherwise. I hate how many 8 month old GSD’s I see that are getting rehomed. 

I love now though that people are migrating to treating their dogs more like kids and waiting to alter them. I’ve met so many people in the last few weeks alone that had a large dog and they were waiting until their dog was old enough. 

I don’t think it’s a cash grab for vets either. My parents waited to spay our childhood dog and she got pyometra at a VERY early age. Even with treatment, she died. My vet was the one that pushed me to wait even longer. And it’s a surgery they provide 100% free for members.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

germanshepowner said:


> I hate how many 8 month old GSD’s I see that are getting rehomed.


Just to play devil's advocate. That is less about a puppy being intact. It is more about people getting a GSD and not understanding how to be firm and enforce house rules when they enter adolescence and become buttheads. Speutering does not fix or stop adolescent behavior.

Now if you said, "I hate how many GSD litters I see that are getting rehomed," your premise about speutering would be more accurate.

So, how about we push for educating people on how to train a dog and get a dog through the butthead phase relatively unscathed.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sorry to break it to you, but we are the general pet owners on this forum. More people lurk and never post, and those people far outweigh the number of regular posting members.

I remember a time when the humane society didn’t spay/neuter. And the rise of the BYB grew. They could go to the pound, find whatever lookalike breed they wanted to sell, and get a breeding bitch or stud for about $50 bucks. Didn’t matter if they were purebred, didn’t matter if it was a mix of mutts that just happened to look like a lab, or golden, or whatever they wanted. 

Then it changed to you having to sign a contract saying you would get them spayed/neutered by your vet within 3 days of adoption. But no one ever checked up on these adopters and dogs, so into the puppy mill BYB grinding mill they went.

Then it was you could adopt but had to sign a contract saying you would bring the dog back to the humane society to have a vet there perform it within a week (depending on the vets schedule). Same problem. 

Now they are forced to spay/neuter all animals leaving the shelter, regardless of negative health risks, because Joe Blow didn’t keep him appt, and now a few months later, he’s bringing in 2 puppies that he couldn’t sell, and the cycle repeats. 

Vets are also aware of the cycle I posted above, and that is why so many push for early spay/neuter. They aren’t just thinking of your dog in particular, but all the possible litters that dog can drop, or how many litters a dog can sire (much more than a single bitch dropping a litter once or twice a year). 

Then you have people that just don’t care that adopt for yard protection. It’s a dog, that’s what they are there for. So on a chain or lead it goes, not fixed, and either slips a collar and goes roaming when a bitch is in heat nearby, or a male jumps your fence when your bitch is in heat. 

Then there are others that think it’s perfectly fine to pop out litter after litter, because it’s not fair to keep dogs from doing what they want sexually. Add in the guys who refuse to neuter just because they wouldn’t want their balls snipped, so why would they do it to their dog? 

These people far outweigh the responsible owners who manage their intact dogs the way the should be. 

It would obviously be in everyone’s best interest to be involved in all rolls of responsible ownership, but you can’t force people to understand. But you can force these same people into being more responsible by not allowing unaltered dogs leave the shelter regardless of age.

It’s not the fault of the vets pushing for early spay/neuter. It’s not the shelters fault for doing them on every dog that comes through, regardless of age. It our fault. We are essentially allowing euthanasia of upwards of 20+ dogs a day per shelter just for population control. That doesn’t even include the ones euthanized for terminal or chronic illness, behavioral issues that they do not have the time to work with. It’s careless owners, owners who just want “one litter from their heart dog before they spay/neuter because they are so cute and everyone should have one,” or the people that either don’t think, or don’t care and pop out pups for a charge. 

If you have an established vet, and they push for early spay/neuter, you’re likely Joe Blow as far as your vet is concerned, and they don’t trust that you will be responsible enough to prevent unwanted litters. I’ve been using the same vet clinic for years, and have intact females and males. I’ve never once been pushed to spay or neuter. Because they know me, and my abilities and drive to prevent any unwanted litters. I am just as dedicated to insuring mine do not ever bred as responsible ethical breeders are about how/when/who to breed their bitches to. 

Anyway, mine are kept intact until 2 at the earliest, and never if health issues don’t arise. And my vets office knows this, and hasn’t ever pushed me or asked me when I plan on spay/neuter. We initially planned on snipping Crios before Seiran’s first heat, but he’s so laid back and not an issue when around bitches in heat, that we decided to keep him intact. The vet was completely okay when I told her we wanted to cancel his neuter appt.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@Kyrielle, exactly. It’s not the 8 month olds being sent to the shelter because they didn’t sell. That closer to 8-14 week old puppies. The 8 month olds are there because the owner didn’t do enough with their dog, regardless of intact/altered status, and when they hit adolescence at that age, the owner doesn’t know, or doesn’t want, to step up training and be the firm responsible handler that dog needs at that age. If we still had orphanages, and they worked like shelters, there would be many more teenagers dropped at the front step than babies. Have you dealt with a human teenager? Satan’s spawn for about 6 months to a year while working through this new stage. I had 4 boys (2 mine, 2 step) that went through it at the same time. If the orphanage took adults, I would have sent myself! I wouldn’t have taken them to have their bits nipped though. Short term problem, long term consequences. And nipping them does not prevent this stage in dogs anyway.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jchrest said:


> @Kyrielle, exactly. It’s not the 8 month olds being sent to the shelter because they didn’t sell. That closer to 8-14 week old puppies. The 8 month olds are there because the owner didn’t do enough with their dog, regardless of intact/altered status, and when they hit adolescence at that age, the owner doesn’t know, or doesn’t want, to step up training and be the firm responsible handler that dog needs at that age. If we still had orphanages, and they worked like shelters, there would be many more teenagers dropped at the front step than babies. Have you dealt with a human teenager? Satan’s spawn for about 6 months to a year while working through this new stage. I had 4 boys (2 mine, 2 step) that went through it at the same time. If the orphanage took adults, I would have sent myself! I wouldn’t have taken them to have their bits nipped though. Short term problem, long term consequences. And nipping them does not prevent this stage in dogs anyway.


They aren't talking about spay/neuters at this stage. I think I understand what was meant. There is such a huge outpouring of GSDs because there are so many intact puppies that they're being pumped out like crazy. So people are getting all these puppies and then ditching them at 8 months old. When I was looking for a puppy I wanted something around 8 months to a year. I could have had german shepherds over every other breed, pretty much all there was in that angle range was GSDs. And lots of those dogs will go on to be bred.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Kyrielle said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> > I hate how many 8 month old GSD’s I see that are getting rehomed.
> ...


Yes sorry I thought I selected quote but I didn’t. I was referring to someone’s earlier post about the excess litters means more dogs rehomed. 

I’m steaming mad because I see so many adolescent German Shepherds in my area being rehomed. I met one that had clearly been inbred and the trainer had told the couple to BEAT the dog. I got knocked over and my glasses broken early in the AM by a tiny woman (albeit, I’m tiny too but I have control of my dog) who had an adolescent GSD. I was shocked that the dog had no respect for people at all. It had no issue spamming its body against my face. I saw another woman kick her GSD for playing a little too rough. Umm, that’s WHY your dog is playing too rough! Husky’s get rehomed here like it’s nothing as well.

It sickens me how many people lately think GSD’s are cool because of game of thrones. I’m in SF and everyone thinks it’s the cool thing to do now. I remember I ran into someone as I was training my GSD and they asked me if I got a dog because of the show. I hadn’t watched the show at that point and thought the show had wolves so I was very confused. ? 

Argh. Sorry, tangent. Just makes me so angry!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Off topic but a lot of what is being said is also a reflection of the area. Most shelters in my area are experiencing an extreme shortage of adoptable dogs and they bring dogs in from out of state to help with the shortage but it is not enough. This has been a problem for over ten years.

Our shelters do spay and neuter which has really helped. The resulting problem is twofold. One is that due to the shortage, backyard breeders and puppy millers are in high demand. The second is for some unknown reason, and despite being a heavily populated county, there are very few reputable breeders of any breed. Most people want to see their new puppy in person and are willing to spend more money at a BYB or a puppy mill rather than ship in from out of state sight unseen.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Jchrest said:


> Sorry to break it to you, but we are the general pet owners on this forum. More people lurk and never post, and those people far outweigh the number of regular posting members.
> 
> I remember a time when the humane society didn’t spay/neuter. And the rise of the BYB grew. They could go to the pound, find whatever lookalike breed they wanted to sell, and get a breeding bitch or stud for about $50 bucks. Didn’t matter if they were purebred, didn’t matter if it was a mix of mutts that just happened to look like a lab, or golden, or whatever they wanted.
> 
> ...


I remember that time as well. My parents adopted dogs from the shelter and it just had a spay/neuter clause. They waited until the dog was older and then spay or neuter. I hate that the average dog owner has ruined it for everyone else. I just met a woman who adopted a dog from a shelter and it had lifelong urinary issues from an early spay. The dog is in discomfort and she walks around urine in her own house. 

I totally agree with you as well. I moved and switched vets, and later when I got my puppy, I brought her in and the vet was gung ho about an early spaying. Later after he saw me taking notes in vet appointments, and religiously following his instructions, he started discussing waiting to spay. I remember I brought her in one week to another vet at the practice when she was sick and they sent me home. So I came back two days later and insisted on more tests. She had an pneumonia. 

I do understand where vets are coming from and I agree with it. I just heard a story about someone who decided to take their dog to the park off leash 5 days after a spaying.. WTF. The dog ran through the park and ripped open every stitch. 



Kazel said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > @Kyrielle, exactly. It’s not the 8 month olds being sent to the shelter because they didn’t sell. That closer to 8-14 week old puppies. The 8 month olds are there because the owner didn’t do enough with their dog, regardless of intact/altered status, and when they hit adolescence at that age, the owner doesn’t know, or doesn’t want, to step up training and be the firm responsible handler that dog needs at that age. If we still had orphanages, and they worked like shelters, there would be many more teenagers dropped at the front step than babies. Have you dealt with a human teenager? Satan’s spawn for about 6 months to a year while working through this new stage. I had 4 boys (2 mine, 2 step) that went through it at the same time. If the orphanage took adults, I would have sent myself! I wouldn’t have taken them to have their bits nipped though. Short term problem, long term consequences. And nipping them does not prevent this stage in dogs anyway.
> ...


Sorry, yes that is what I meant! I forgot to click quote I guess or it didn’t work. I was agreeing with someone’s earlier post. I think the topic just makes me really frustrated so I wasn’t clear. It’s scary how many 8 month old GSD’s I see around here.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Same here, MAWL. Next to no locally produced puppies OR dogs up for adoption. We've been a zero kill (except for severe behaviors or medical) state for something like a decade. 

So if you look at Petfinder, greater than 90% of dogs on there are bully breeds shipped in from out of state. A few shepherds, and some nice labs or actual lab mixes (not "lab-mixes" that clearly are bully breed). 

It bothers me because they charge upwards of $500 for a mixed breed from the southern states, and thus the rescue retail-transports are just allowing the over population crisis down there to continue. And at the same time, bringing in diseases and behavioral issues that would not otherwise exist. 

My opinion may be unpopular, but I'd like to see people here breeding their health-checked, nice temperament labs, more. Better a sweet family-dog type lab than what we are importing. 

As for shepherds, not an issue locally as far as pups needing homes. It's weird, because I rarely see shepherds out on the trails, despite the breed supposedly being popular. By far the most common breed I see on the trails are doodles of some shape or form. It's like an invasion of the muppets out there.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OMG doodles do look like muppets! That's what I call my doodle boarders lol. We have a mini muppet too.

I have to say to all the naysayers out there, my youngest has only been neutered like 3 weeks and things are calmer already. I am glad I did it. 

When I say calmer, HE is not calmer, though he is a pretty mellow dog in any case. But he already shows much less interest in and flirty behavior with my female and that has just made our lives much simpler


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> Same here, MAWL. Next to no locally produced puppies OR dogs up for adoption. We've been a zero kill (except for severe behaviors or medical) state for something like a decade.
> 
> So if you look at Petfinder, greater than 90% of dogs on there are bully breeds shipped in from out of state. A few shepherds, and some nice labs or actual lab mixes (not "lab-mixes" that clearly are bully breed).
> 
> ...


This is abpretty accurate description of my area too. There's been one shepherd in a local shelter that I know of. I don't think highly of this shelter because they call you-know-what's something else in order to get them adopted. And most if not all their dogs have major behavioral problems and they say it right on the profile. Dog aggressive, resource guarding, etc. Almost every single of the mis named dogs were surrendered for dog aggression. In my area most ppl want to turn their dogs loose on communal trails and hike. Scary.

They had 1 shepherd for a long time. I inquired about him to see if I could help get him into breed rescue, I did not know why he was languishing in a shelter. They responded back that he was surrendered due to a long bite history. He was adopted out once, bit his new owners on night one, and was returned. They said it was the new owner's fault he bit them. I kid you not. 

Reputable breed rescue wouldn't have anything to do with it because of the bites

A less discerning rescue did finally take him and I don't know what happened after that because I didn't want to have anything to do with it. 

Seems like all the shelters do around here is adopt out aggressive dogs they've imported from down south mostly. 

Ppl just want a nice family dog to do stuff with and these are their choices because also in my area, buying from a breeder is pretty frowned upon. Stupid.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Same here, MAWL. Next to no locally produced puppies OR dogs up for adoption. We've been a zero kill (except for severe behaviors or medical) state for something like a decade.
> 
> So if you look at Petfinder, greater than 90% of dogs on there are bully breeds shipped in from out of state. A few shepherds, and some nice labs or actual lab mixes (not "lab-mixes" that clearly are bully breed).
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, there are plenty of bully breeds available, averaging 95-98% of shelters at any given time but breed matters and like any other breed, they are not the right fit for any and all families. The dogs that get shipped in are 95% non bully breeds and puppies. Another practice I see with them bringing in dogs, is that they go to states with a higher percentage of a variety of breeds coupled with extremely short mandated legal hold periods, generally 48 hours and they go to those shelters and bring purebreds back before a legal owner even has a chance to find their dog.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Muskeg said:


> Same here, MAWL. Next to no locally produced puppies OR dogs up for adoption. We've been a zero kill (except for severe behaviors or medical) state for something like a decade.
> 
> So if you look at Petfinder, greater than 90% of dogs on there are bully breeds shipped in from out of state. A few shepherds, and some nice labs or actual lab mixes (not "lab-mixes" that clearly are bully breed).
> 
> ...


It’s an invasion of the muppets here too. ? Those dogs are truly scary. I truly believe those breeds weren’t meant to mix. I’ve never met a single mentally stable doodle. And there’s more in my area than you could possibly imagine. 

That is awful about your area. I feel awful saying it but I had shelter dogs all my life with similar issues. Fearfulness, dog aggression, afraid of kids.. And it was always a huge impact on my life. Living your life focused around a dog that might bite a child at any second was terrifying. And I no longer want a shelter dog. Now I have my first purebred purchased dog and it’s a dream. Her temperament is amazing. I was bit several times as a child by shelter dogs. 

One of my earliest memories is my face getting bitten right near my eye. Another until blood was dripping down my back. I will NEVER have a shelter dog around my kid. I feel awful saying it because I volunteered at shelters for years and years and fostered but I no longer want to have my quality of life suffer or put my kids at risk because of some jerk’s mistakes in raising their dog. 

My SO is the same way. His family couldn’t even have people over sometimes because of their dog. It cracks me up when our GSD immediately obeys a command and he’s SO happy and grateful ? My shelter dogs were always very well trained but there’s only so much you can do when a dog is so fearful of children that they would attack.

IMHO, we should have much higher regulations on who can adopt or own a dog. It should be a privilege and not a right. We’d have far less poorly trained and aggressive dogs at shelters.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh, interesting MAWL- so you do have locally produced dogs, but they are of a breed less adoptable, so they ship in the more adoptable breeds. That's not like it is right here- we ship in the less adoptable breed, mostly. 

I think I may have said this before, but I think spay and neuter should be free and very easily available to anyone sho needs it. In the long run, offering the services for free will save taxpayers money. Have mobile vans that go and park in a neighborhood where they are needed- do the spay-neuter procedures in a day along with free vaccines and licenses. Offer some incentive for people to show up. And for repeat offenders producing unwanted puppies- offer some disincentive. 

It would take time and money to get there, but the end result would be worth it- thousands fewer dogs euthanized in shelters- and many more happy families who are able to buy the dog they want, rather than rescue an unknown that causes heartache.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

germanshepowner said:


> Yes sorry I thought I selected quote but I didn’t. I was referring to someone’s earlier post about the excess litters means more dogs rehomed.
> 
> I’m steaming mad because I see so many adolescent German Shepherds in my area being rehomed. I met one that had clearly been inbred and the trainer had told the couple to BEAT the dog. I got knocked over and my glasses broken early in the AM by a tiny woman (albeit, I’m tiny too but I have control of my dog) who had an adolescent GSD. I was shocked that the dog had no respect for people at all. It had no issue spamming its body against my face. I saw another woman kick her GSD for playing a little too rough. Umm, that’s WHY your dog is playing too rough! Husky’s get rehomed here like it’s nothing as well.
> 
> ...


Oh I feel ya. It's incredibly frustrating since it's a problem that can be solved with patience and consistency. If they'd just take a little time to tell the dog "No!" in a respectful manner and show them what they want them to do, their crazy puppy would stop being crazy fairly rapidly. Especially a GSD. They'd turn their attitude around real quick.

You know what would be really interesting? A rescue that offered training services for people turning in their crazy, untrained adolescent dogs. It could go something like this:

Owner: "My dog is crazy and won't stop biting me/chasing the cat/jumping on people/tearing up the house."
Rescue: "Okay, so let's look at the training you've done and see if there's anything we can do to help improve that."

Then the rescue contacts a trainer (or their resident trainer), who specializes in annoying behaviors in dogs, and helps the owners get their dog under control for a reduced cost or free. Dog under control = owner isn't likely to turn in the dog. Then the problem diminishes and you only have to deal with extreme abuse cases, strays, and excess litters. All of which take up enough of your time already.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Same here, MAWL. Next to no locally produced puppies OR dogs up for adoption. We've been a zero kill (except for severe behaviors or medical) state for something like a decade.
> 
> So if you look at Petfinder, greater than 90% of dogs on there are bully breeds shipped in from out of state. A few shepherds, and some nice labs or actual lab mixes (not "lab-mixes" that clearly are bully breed).
> 
> ...


Facebook is cracking down at pet sales which I'm hoping is a good thing and helps. But so many people were using it to sell puppies and then everybody was selling puppies because they saw quick cash. It seemed like every breeder had 1-3 puppies leftover they could barely sell because there were so many puppies in the market. Lots of people were selling puppies for $500+ and slowly dropping in prices as they realized they could sell. Purebreds and mutts alike. 

And then tons of high energy puppies mostly herding breeds and shepherds with people looking for that magic ranch home that wants to take their high energy out of control puppy that they didn't train or exercise as if there's an endless amount of homes for them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Kyrielle said:


> germanshepowner said:
> 
> 
> > Yes sorry I thought I selected quote but I didn’t. I was referring to someone’s earlier post about the excess litters means more dogs rehomed.
> ...


 a good idea but in my expierience ppl with dogs like that are either so mismatched or so unwilling to do the necessary work, that it judt isn't going to work out anyway


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Muskeg said:


> Oh, interesting MAWL- so you do have locally produced dogs, but they are of a breed less adoptable, so they ship in the more adoptable breeds. That's not like it is right here- we ship in the less adoptable breed, mostly.
> 
> I think I may have said this before, but I think spay and neuter should be free and very easily available to anyone sho needs it. In the long run, offering the services for free will save taxpayers money. Have mobile vans that go and park in a neighborhood where they are needed- do the spay-neuter procedures in a day along with free vaccines and licenses. Offer some incentive for people to show up. And for repeat offenders producing unwanted puppies- offer some disincentive.
> 
> It would take time and money to get there, but the end result would be worth it- thousands fewer dogs euthanized in shelters- and many more happy families who are able to buy the dog they want, rather than rescue an unknown that causes heartache.


We have a mobile van in place in my town, and while it’s not free, it is very reasonable. And they offer packages. So if you want to get your dog UTD on shots, you just go where the van is, and it’s $5 for all vaccines but rabies, $15 for rabies (which includes the mandated city license), and $25 for a spay/neuter. Scarely few people use the service, and they are talking about pulling it. 

Our shelter is in the process of becoming a no kill shelter, which is scary. 80% bully breed (mixes) 10% chihuahua (mixes) 5% lab (mixes) and 5% GSD’s or Husky’s. 

I was asked to foster a male GSD about 6-7 months ago. I went down to the shelter, and he was beauuuuutiful. The shelter worker called him to the fence, put her hand to the fence for him to sniff, and he bit her knuckle through the links. She was too scared to take him out, so she handed me the leash and said I was welcome to take him out to the exercise yard to check him out. I just stared at her with a bad word look on my face. Granted, I’m a foster, and have had all the foster “training” the shelter requires, but she didn’t know me from Tom, ****, or Harry. And even being a foster, there are clear rules that a staff member has to be present anytime an animal is removed from a kennel. Yes, I did report her on my way out. She had no business working there is a GSD nibbling her knuckle sent her running past all the bully breed kennels. She was dismissed.

Anyway, I have his leash and am reading the info sheet on the front of the kennel, and it states that he needs to be in a home with no other animals, no children, and preferably a male only owner. I literally laughed out loud. Me and my home couldn’t be further from what they said this dog needs. I was willing to give it a go though, these are the dogs I’m used to behavior wise. Put the slip lead over him, turn and walk out of the kennels towards the exercise yard, and he launches at a female staff member walking past. Gave him a leave it and collar pop, and took him to the exercise yard. Walked him around a few times, all was good. Let him off the slip lead, all was good. Gave him a few commands to see what he knew, and sit was all I got out of him. So we played a bit, threw some balls for him, he was great. Put the slip lead back on him to take him back to the kennel, and as soon as he saw the kennel door he came up the leash. No biggie. I wouldn’t want to go back into the kennel either. So it still wasn’t a deal breaker for me. Then a kid walked out of the kennels and this guy WENT for the kid. That’s when I said nope. Been there, done that too many times with kids in the home, and I knew I couldn’t give him the full time training he would need. I’m not as young, in shape, and healthy as I was 5 years ago. There is no way I could put enough time and effort into him to make it worthwhile. I didn’t want to go through the crate and rotate, the tethering to me and not letting him near my children bit again. I just couldn’t bring myself to say yes. And I’m glad now that I didn’t, I wouldn’t be able to physically hold on to him at this point, and he would be a huge liability in my home with children and 4 other dogs (2 at the time). 

He is still listed as adoptable today. It makes me cringe knowing anyone could walk in today and adopt him. The shelter loses liability as long as they have his info listed on the kennel form attached to his kennel. So Joe Blow can walk in, look at him, and adopt him, without ever reading the kennel form, or taking him outside the kennel. The shelter staff encourages you to leave the dog in the kennel, and they will bring him to you when the paperwork is complete. I can’t even imagine how they get the BB’s adopted out. 

I’ve since notified the shelter that I will no longer be available to foster. I have a full home, and full time recovery that makes me a less than stellar foster home. But it didn’t make a difference to the shelter. They begged me to continue to foster. Even after knowing all my medical issues, and that I have young children and 4 dogs at home. I ended up blocking the shelter numbers from my phone so I wasn’t tempted to “just help one more out, and then I’ll be done.” 

Thank God they alter all animals regardless of age, before they leave the shelter. I couldn’t even imagine what it would look like to have them adopting these behaviors out intact. Yikes! Yes, health wise it’s better to wait, and there are risks for early altering, but I would feel better sending a dog home that may have future health risks with an early spay/neuter, than a dog that has no business being adopted out to the general public period, and being left intact to bring more pups into the world with horrible temperament issues, potential health issues from poor breeding, and allowing the cycle to continue over and over.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

JChrest- I am curious if there is any incentive to get people to use that $25 spay-neuter service that might actually work? I mean anyone should be able to pay $25, so obviously cost isn't the problem. Here, people see testicles on a dog, they're like "what are those things?!!" I am glad I have fluffies- they are very discrete. But the whole culture here is pretty strongly anti intact dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

germanshepowner said:


> It’s an invasion of the muppets here too. ? Those dogs are truly scary. I truly believe those breeds weren’t meant to mix. I’ve never met a single mentally stable doodle. And there’s more in my area than you could possibly imagine.
> 
> That is awful about your area. I feel awful saying it but I had shelter dogs all my life with similar issues. Fearfulness, dog aggression, afraid of kids.. And it was always a huge impact on my life. Living your life focused around a dog that might bite a child at any second was terrifying. And I no longer want a shelter dog. Now I have my first purebred purchased dog and it’s a dream. Her temperament is amazing. I was bit several times as a child by shelter dogs.
> 
> ...


I've boarded probably about 10 doodles from my area, bigs mediums and one little. Most of mine have been pretty okay. One is more fearful than she should be and tends toward resource guarding. But I am thinking the rest of them are not bad. Two are brand new though and I haven't had them for a lengthy stay so I may change my mind. I wouldn't own one in a million years--- they are as nasty with their water as bearded dogs. I would never want to deal with the coat.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

AlphaHunter said:


> Anyways, about spay incontinence??? Have you dealt with this issue?


This question was asked a few days ago and the thread direction has shifted but I have dealt with this issue. 

I have a 15 year old boxer/pit mix I found on the street. Since she wasn't rescued from a shelter, I was able to chose when to spay. I spayed her after her first cycle and not too much later after that, she started leaking while sleeping. At first I thought it was drool but nope, it was pee in my bed that was waking me up. Through her life we've off and on give her no meds, Prion 75 mg (1/4 pill a day, needs vet prescription) and Botanic Choice Homeopathic Bladder Control (2 pills a day, for humans from Amazon). Prion has muscle memory for this incontinence so through most of her life we got away with doing a week regime of Prion and then switching to the homeopathic pills and ween to nothing until she starts leaking again in a few months. We've always tried to keep the meds to a minimum; the Prion seems to make her more edgy but that could just be me reading into things. Now that she's fifteen, she's pretty much on a constant Prion regime and it barely controls the issue. When she was younger, the homeopathic alone would handle it mostly. Its a cycle we have ridden for years. It's messy, smelly and I'm constantly washing dog beds. It hurts her confidence because she knows she's not supposed to pee in the house and can't help it. 

I'm still not sure if the timing of spay is the true reason for the incontinence but it wasn't present before the spay.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Muskeg, we have tried every type of outreach possible, including driving the van into impoverished areas, and offering a Walmart gift card for 25.00 to those that spay/neuter. $50 card for those that did the whole thing. Rabies, boosters, and altering. So basically, they would get the services free, being reimbursed via gift cards. Still had very few people use the service. 

I don’t get it at all. Most of them breed their dogs for money, so a free service doesn’t help. They lose their source of income if they alter.

It’s much more common to find intact dogs here than altered dogs. Not because they care about the health of the dog, but because the dog provides income. These dogs are raised outside in dirt yards, and most are fed ol’roy. Adults and puppies alike. They are sold without vaccines or dewormings, and most don’t make it past puppyhood due to parvo or distemper. The ones that do survive are usually popping out the next generation. I’ll never understand. I would also love to have one or two solid breeders in our town. Ones that care about health and temperament and won’t breed bitches or studs who don’t have the right genetics. But sadly, our only options here are very bad BYB or the shelter. Even someone as involved with dogs as I am wouldn’t be a good breeder, I know literally nothing about lines, how to guesstimate which traits from each dog would produce. And even if I took the time to learn everything there is to learn about breeding, I wouldn’t have many buyers because BYB’s here sell theirs for $150-$300. People wouldn’t understand a higher price for a well breed pup.


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## AlphaHunter (Aug 21, 2019)

Doodle haters ? Well, I am a doodle hater, and I'm not to shy to come out and say it. 

Fine if the doodle is truly an accident + you have one, but to intentionally get one? No no noooooo. 

If you rescued one? Okay. But please don't purposely get one. I can't fathom why you would want one. This type of dog has become painfully trendy. But really, I can't see the appeal of them. Guess everyone has their preferences. I'm a doodle hater because the poor dogs are just being exploited, as I said, because this is so trendy. The dogs are being sold to people that don't have a clue!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

AlphaHunter said:


> Doodle haters ? Well, I am a doodle hater, and I'm not to shy to come out and say it.
> 
> Fine if the doodle is truly an accident + you have one, but to intentionally get one? No no noooooo.
> 
> If you rescued one? Okay. But please don't purposely get one. I can't fathom why you would want one. This type of dog has become painfully trendy. But really, I can't see the appeal of them. Guess everyone has their preferences. I'm a doodle hater because the poor dogs are just being exploited, as I said, because this is so trendy. The dogs are being sold to people that don't have a clue!


Of all the mixed this and that breeds, the labradoodle actually had a good purpose it was bred for. I think they had a good start, but like a lot of things, money took it off the rails.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jchrest said:


> Muskeg, we have tried every type of outreach possible, including driving the van into impoverished areas, and offering a Walmart gift card for 25.00 to those that spay/neuter. $50 card for those that did the whole thing. Rabies, boosters, and altering. So basically, they would get the services free, being reimbursed via gift cards. Still had very few people use the service.
> 
> I don’t get it at all. Most of them breed their dogs for money, so a free service doesn’t help. They lose their source of income if they alter.
> 
> It’s much more common to find intact dogs here than altered dogs. Not because they care about the health of the dog, but because the dog provides income. These dogs are raised outside in dirt yards, and most are fed ol’roy. Adults and puppies alike. They are sold without vaccines or dewormings, and most don’t make it past puppyhood due to parvo or distemper. The ones that do survive are usually popping out the next generation. I’ll never understand. I would also love to have one or two solid breeders in our town. Ones that care about health and temperament and won’t breed bitches or studs who don’t have the right genetics. But sadly, our only options here are very bad BYB or the shelter. Even someone as involved with dogs as I am wouldn’t be a good breeder, I know literally nothing about lines, how to guesstimate which traits from each dog would produce. And even if I took the time to learn everything there is to learn about breeding, I wouldn’t have many buyers because BYB’s here sell theirs for $150-$300. People wouldn’t understand a higher price for a well breed pup.


If you are a responsible pet owner, than you MAY neuter your animal. Some people choose not to neuter for health or temperament or breeding reasons, and are very responsible with their pets. But if you are irresponsible, the chances are you aren't going to bother neutering. Only irresponsible owners allow their dogs to roam and get picked up by AC. So the chances are the dogs they are picking up belong to irresponsible owners, and they probably didn't neuter. I am guessing that at least 90 percent of males owned by irresponsible pet owners, and 50% of females are intact. So this really isn't an intact issue, it is an irresponsible pet owner containment issue. 

Might an intact dog with a strong sex-drive overcome physical barriers to court a bitch in standing heat? Surely there are a few. But most of those dogs hanging out at your door, just belong to irresponsible owners and the smell at your place is the best thing going. It is a containment issue. An irresponsible pet ownership issue.

Lastly, the people on here are NOT ordinary pet owners. They may not be breeders or sport people, they may not work with their dogs as guard, police, military dogs or herding dogs. They may not have a dog as a service dog of whatever sort, or even as an Emotional Support Dog. But they are NOT ordinary pet owners. 

Ordinary pet owners get a puppy and go to the vet and listen to the vet about when/if to neuter to get shots what to feed, and then they forget about it. Maybe they take a photo and show people at work. Because others do. But they aren't hanging out on internet sites, talking about doggy day care, or how solid their dog's poop is. They may show up if they are worried about the dog for whatever reason and stick around and become a dog-person, a dog-people. But this site is populated by dog-people, not your average pet owner. There is a difference. Some of it is really good, and sometimes I wonder if we go too far in some ways. But people here are learning, training, looking at nutrition, hearing about current events. etc. Not average or ordinary.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Of all the mixed this and that breeds, the labradoodle actually had a good purpose it was bred for. I think they had a good start, but like a lot of things, money took it off the rails.


The creator of them highly regrets creating them. I agree they had a good idea but it really fell through. Now "hypoallergenic" mixes are the new craze. Often dogs that end up highly matted as people don't understand the grooming requirements or they end up discarded as the people end up allergic to them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't think most labradoodles are hypoallergenic at this point either. I read his comments about his regrets a while back. I see a few around here. The ones I've had contact with seemed like their temperaments are fine.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

We groom three doodles. They are all sweet, but wild. Two of them have had really severe skin allergies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Since my computer locked up and I lost my whole previous post, I missed something when I retyped it:

I do not believe that there are that many irresponsible owners. I think that the things that they due speak so loudly that it appears that they are many more of them than there are. I am not talking about a dog living in a yard or even having a litter of puppies because they are cute or I wanted the kids to experience the birth or whatever. If those people properly home the puppies, so what, they are providing for their animals. They will not ruin the breed because serious breeders will not buy pups from them. Anyway, some of the serious breeders are the cause of some the things folks complain most about the breed. 

The irresponsible people I am talking of, that there are few in number, I believe, are those that would leave a litter at the pound, dump a pregnant nbitch in the woods. , not take a prong off a dog and let it inbed (or any collar for that matter) not take a dog to the vet who is seriously ill or injured, or who let their dogs roam.

I think they are few, but their actions speack loudest.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

selzer said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> > Muskeg, we have tried every type of outreach possible, including driving the van into impoverished areas, and offering a Walmart gift card for 25.00 to those that spay/neuter. $50 card for those that did the whole thing. Rabies, boosters, and altering. So basically, they would get the services free, being reimbursed via gift cards. Still had very few people use the service.
> ...


Really good point. I think about that all the time. I wish we could have a big GSD meetup. I have exactly zero friends that are as dog obsessed as I am in this area. I love the owners here. Not so much the rest of the dog owners in the world.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Ha, a meetup of the forum members here would likely end up in an all out physical brawl. Between both owners and GSD’s ?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jchrest said:


> Ha, a meetup of the forum members here would likely end up in an all out physical brawl. Between both owners and GSD’s ?


Just thinking we have to get a little less serious. We are not average or ordinary, but ornery -- yeah!
:grin2:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jchrest said:


> Ha, a meetup of the forum members here would likely end up in an all out physical brawl. Between both owners and GSD’s ?


Yes, and let all the dogs off leash to see how they get along (no worries, they are friendly)


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I had an F1 GD. He was a total chill dog. He did shed and I doubt he was full Hypo. Great dog, got Duke a GSD when the GD was 3. The GD was never the same. Just could not keep up athletically and intellectually with the GSD. Just became a lazy dog. 

So I got the Golden Doodle about 14 years ago. At the time they were little known. The only doodle was the labradoodle. When people would ask what kind of dog it was they would look puzzled at the answer. 

Now my walk in the park, lake, hikes etc are filled with GD’s. Maybe 30%. Trouble is they all look different because there are very few F1 GDs. 


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think what bothers me most about the doodles is that I feel people buy one because they look like big stuffed animals. And then are surprised when there is still a normal dog's brain and dog needs under that fluffy. 

And the berner-doodle is an aberration. 

If you just want to make money off breeding, do it with doodles.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> I think what bothers me most about the doodles is that I feel people buy one because they look like big stuffed animals. And then are surprised when there is still a normal dog's brain and dog needs under that fluffy.
> 
> And the berner-doodle is an aberration.
> 
> If you just want to make money off breeding, do it with doodles.




I’m amazed that people will pay $3000 for a labradoodle puppy. For a mixed breed dog. If I had that kind of money to spend on a puppy, I’d be buying a GSD show puppy. I think people just like saying the word doodle, lol.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Doodles are good dogs. Could care less about the mixed breed. Like any dog, you pay for a good breeder. 


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Frisco19 said:


> Doodles are good dogs. Could care less about the mixed breed. Like any dog, you pay for a good breeder.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The problem is most aren't ethical breeders. They make up the far minority of doodle breeders. I've at the moment only heard of one in my area that does health testing. Most people are just breeding them and selling them for a huge price. Like bernedoodle puppies for $3000, no health testing just sold as a craze. St. Bernoodle F1 dogs sold as non-drooling non-sheddding super puppies for $1000. They were backyard bred if not puppy mill bred. People are getting suckereed in by the cute looks, fad, and the supposed hypoallergenic coat. 

Ausiedoodles are a big thing right now cause then they can make blue Merle and really sell them like crazy.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Kazel said:


> The problem is most aren't ethical breeders. They make up the far minority of doodle breeders. I've at the moment only heard of one in my area that does health testing. Most people are just breeding them and selling them for a huge price. Like bernedoodle puppies for $3000, no health testing just sold as a craze. St. Bernoodle F1 dogs sold as non-drooling non-sheddding super puppies for $1000. They were backyard bred if not puppy mill bred. People are getting suckereed in by the cute looks, fad, and the supposed hypoallergenic coat.
> 
> 
> 
> Ausiedoodles are a big thing right now cause then they can make blue Merle and really sell them like crazy.




You can say the same for GSDs and unsuspecting buyers. 


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We have a lot of Golden doodles around where I live they seem like sweet dogs that do not shed. Some are hypo allergenic. I think that every one who chooses to purchase a dog from a breeder does so for their own reasons. The prices are quite interesting. Supply and demand I suppose. It is a sad though when people breed only for profit and nothing else. 

I know of people that do not like German shepherds either. People that own a particular breed feels that their breed is the best in the universe or so they should.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I should not have googled the doodles. They even have a GSD/Doodle. I’m waiting for a BB/Doodle to start popping up in my neck of the cacti. 

Most of them look ridiculous. And the price tag? It’s a “designer dog” price tag. The price and BYB’s that popped up skyrocketed when Paris Hilton was a thing with her chihuahua’s that she would match to her outfits, and then it was a competition to see who could out bling their chihuahuas and almost everyone carried them around in a designer purse until pet marketers got smart and started making designer dog carriers. 

Anything that rises quickly in popularity generally becomes a wreck of a breed because they are BYB’s that don’t care and just want the money. They would probably start capturing bear cubs and figure out how to cross breed them with a dog if they thought it would become a high demand thing.

Maybe we should state mandate a registration and steep fines for BYB’s themselves, and spay/neuter for the wrecks they breed.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I try not to pass judgement on other breeds and the owners that choose them. 

I “try” but I do have an unconscious bias against little yappy lap dogs. They are just annoying and the owners of these dogs usually have no control over them because they are untrained and the dog calls all the shots. 

Any who, yeah, I try not to pass judgement


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Doodle breeders will tell you that they can predict exactly how a poodle cross (whatever) is going to turn out. If it's a Berner doodle, which I find simply wrong, they'll say it is a slightly more agile, healthier, and non-shedding berner. Well, one I saw was really young and had a strange gait, and just was overall weird. Probably this poor dog was a shedding, less agile, very unhealthy berner that will still die of berner cancer at age 7. And cost way more than my imported, out of titled/health checked parents, proven temperament puppy. Actually, 3 times as much! So the breeders are lying to the buyers and charging a fortune. They have no interest in the health of their pups, they are just jumping on the doodle bubble to make money.

I have met many doodles out on the trails. Most are a bit wild and stupid but fine - not aggressive or anything. Some are more poorly bred looking than others. Some look pretty decent- I tend to prefer the goldendoodle look. But, they are a mutt, plain and simple, and surely adding a poodle to any breed does not improve it or make it instantly non shedding. 

I wish more people would buy Portueguese water dogs- they seem like decent pets, and at least they are proven to be hypoallergenic.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I hear grey hounds another breed on the larger side are good for people with dog allergies- if some people are looking for less fluff or curls.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

An allergist (MD) told me that it is the skin particles that cause allergies and NOT the hair. So he called 'anti allergenic breeds' a fabrication.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> I’m amazed that people will pay $3000 for a labradoodle puppy. For a mixed breed dog. If I had that kind of money to spend on a puppy, I’d be buying a GSD show puppy. I think people just like saying the word doodle, lol.


A fool and their money is soon parted. I just wonder how the fools get their money in the first place. Methinks too many folks have too much money to spend and then there's me. I suppose I am a fool for dogs, and that's where all the money goes, before I ever get it. 

But yeah, I think folks get enamored by the cutsie little doodle word.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Lol I’ll admit I like to say the word poodle. It used to be Scarlet’s nickname. 

Way back in the day, we saw lots of cockapoos and peekapoos, and then the schnoodles came along. You’d think that mixing poodle with another breed would smarten it up, but that was never my experience. More often than not, it seemed that the worst of both breeds would come out. I hated grooming cockapoos. They were so stupid. (My apologies to those that loved their cockapoos. They were terrible to groom). 

I groomed one Portuguese Water Dog for years, and I really liked her. Sturdy, fun dog.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> An allergist (MD) told me that it is the skin particles that cause allergies and NOT the hair. So he called 'anti allergenic breeds' a fabrication.


There are different factors for different people. In cats for example people are generally allergic to a component in the saliva. Less allergenic breeds produce less of that component in their saliva. Which is how the mainecoon for all its long fur is less allergenic. 

In dogs it varies but people are often allergic to the dander. So dogs that shed less and their fur traps the dander(hence the huge grooming requirements) people are usually less allergic to them. Doodles and other normally less allergenic breeds have very little consistency when mixed so it's often more of a coin toss unless it's from a reputable breeder who is several generations away from F1 and even then it isn't guaranteed. In the very first labradoodle F1 litter I think only one didn't trigger allergies in the lady. So technically an F1 cross could produce all allergic or all lower allergenic puppies. And somebody with a strong allergy might still be allergic to the hypoallergenic puppies. They may also not have issues with other breeds or sometimes specific dogs. 

It's also why if somebody has allergies they want to meet both parents if they're purebred to see if they react to them because people often don't react to puppies. So there is some truth in people suddenly struggling with older puppies and allergies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dogfaeries said:


> Lol I’ll admit I like to say the word poodle. It used to be Scarlet’s nickname.
> 
> Way back in the day, we saw lots of cockapoos and peekapoos, and then the schnoodles came along. You’d think that mixing poodle with another breed would smarten it up, but that was never my experience. More often than not, it seemed that the worst of both breeds would come out. I hated grooming cockapoos. They were so stupid. (My apologies to those that loved their cockapoos. They were terrible to groom).
> 
> I groomed one Portuguese Water Dog for years, and I really liked her. Sturdy, fun dog.


I think I would have gotten my mouth washed out with soap if I said "cockapoo" when I was growing up. I think if one of my nieces were to say that, I might still wash their mouth out with soap. Only for a different reason. Cockapoo rhymes with Peekachu and I do have a niece that might put a purple collar on one of those and... Yes, want to make a real aversion to the term cockapoo, soap might do it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

selzer said:


> I think I would have gotten my mouth washed out with soap if I said "cockapoo" when I was growing up. I think if one of my nieces were to say that, I might still wash their mouth out with soap. Only for a different reason. Cockapoo rhymes with Peekachu and I do have a niece that might put a purple collar on one of those and... Yes, want to make a real aversion to the term cockapoo, soap might do it.


:hammer::rofl: Up until just now I never thought about the idiocy of ****-a-Poo. They should bleep it :wink2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Kazel said:


> wolfy dog said:
> 
> 
> > An allergist (MD) told me that it is the skin particles that cause allergies and NOT the hair. So he called 'anti allergenic breeds' a fabrication.
> ...


Very true some breeds are better for people that have allergies to dogs. Different proteins in the dander. My cats I was allergic according to my allergy test to cats. My two cats I was not allergic to one cat I had severe allergic reaction my eyes would swell up every time I pet her if I did not wash my hands after.


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