# Halti harness fitting



## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Hi all,

I've done extensive googling about this but can't seem to find any articles or posts relating to this, which is surprising!

I just bought Chuck (5 month old) a halti harness to replace the one he's just outgrown. He's not a massive puller in general terms, but he gets very excited when he sees other dogs and forgets the rules, so I was attracted by the halti for it's chest-located lead attachment ring thingy. 

It does seem to have made him easier to manage around other dogs when he's feeling playful (until training can kick in of course).

When he does occasionally pull the harness diverts his energy instead of allowing him to pull into it, but the front also pulls the belly strap forward into his armpits, resulting in the chest strap hanging so loose at times I worry he'll step into it. This can't be comfortable.

I measured him for the harness so, best I can tell, it's the correct size.

When I've looked at fitting videos they seem to perform the fitting on short haired, muscular dogs and the musculature of the adult dogs keeps the harness in place from what I can tell. Chuck isn't that ripped yet!

Does anyone have any tips on how I can modify the adjustment to account for this? Nylon being pulled into your armpits for the rest of the walk can't be comfortable.

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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

unfortunately pulling into the armpits is kind of the design flaw of those front clip harnesses. If the harness slides out of place I'd just fix it when the excitement is over and the dog is walking without pulling again.

If you got a newer halti they do have padding at that spot now. And a clip to go from the front strap to the collar ring so it doesn't slide down like the Gentle Leaders are prone to do.

These harnesses aren't popular on here so get ready for that. I do like them for some purposes and situations.

you will see the nylon straps appearing to cut into the hair on a GSD ...feel under the strap to see if it is tight and don't go by the hair. I'll let out the chest strap until the girth strap actually does sit behind the elbows if that makes sense...if the chest strap is too tight it will pull the girth strap forward into the elbows even more.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have posted this on another thread but here it is again: my vet sees a lot of structural damage because of these frontclip harnesses, as she does with haltis (neck injuries). They don't teach, just manage. A prong collar is safer.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I completely agree with the prong suggestion, but please watch a couple videos on how to properly use and fit a prong first. I see so many poorly fitted, loose hanging prongs. And buy a good one from Herm Sprenger, not a cheapo from a place like Petsmart. I do not like haltis or head harnesses. And neither do dogs.


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions about prong collars. I had considered them and am not ready to rule them out, however my current trainer doesn't support them - the main criticism I hear is that the dog only behaves well on the prong. I lack the experience to form an opinion myself, but will keep it in mind.

At the minute it's my intention to use a martingale collar - he only pulls when other dogs are around that he wants to play with and I intend on training him out of this once he's a little more mature. Until then I don't want him pulling at dogs whilst on a collar and damaging his neck.

As I don't have a pulling problem outside of a narrow (but common) circumstance, it's my intention to treat any anti-pull solution be it harness or collar as a temporary patch until he's mature enough to focus with distraction - I achieved loose lead walking without either and I therefore see aversive methods as a Plan B.

Please feel free to voice your disagreement though - I'll know I'm probably wrong if the disagreement is unanimous!

Will

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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wombat, a number of years ago, I rescued an 85 lb. fully grown male GSD that had spent most of his life on an 8 foot chain. He'd never been walked on a leash before, so I bought my first prong collar.

By the end of the long weekend, I had him walking on the prong as if he'd been doing it all his life. Within a month or so, I was able to transition him to the flat collar.

Yes, sometimes he'd start to forget his manners, and I'd put the prong back on him. The change in his behaviour was immediate - once on the prong, he became a total angel!

It wasn't long before I didn't need the prong at all. It's more about training, than it is about the tool you use. The collar is just a means to an end. Teach your dog to focus on you, and do not allow him to pull towards other dogs. It CAN be done. I train my dogs in schutzhund, and the dog must be looking at the handler's face at all times when heeling, and totally ignore distractions.

There are numerous threads on this board that can help you understand how to achieve this. I'm sure you don't want the schutzhund level of control, but you CAN train your dog to ignore others, and not pull towards them!

Edit: you changed your post while I was writing this one, and I see you understand what I'm trying to say!  I really think you don't need to wait until he's 'more mature' though, to teach him to ignore other dogs. The longer you delay, the more ingrained the behaviour can become.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Put me in the "not a fan camp." Those "things" work best with dogs with the right "Temperament" ... Guide Dogs for the Blind ... Luv's them but they tend to have lots of the "right" dogs/puppies.

I've only seen one GSD near me walking with one on. Rocky and I stopped and I spoke to the guy from across the street. It was an interesting juxtaposition between his GSD and mine. Rocky was following behind me off leash and when I stopped he stopped. (I may have told him "Stay" not sure but at any rate he stopped when I did. As did the other owners GSD. 

But what was interesting, and yes the other guys dog did walk well on leash, I'll give him that. But while Rocky held head his up upright ... high and proud ... the Halti Dog ... never looked up?? That dog hung his head low and never looked our way??? I felt embarrassed for the dog. The other owner ... never seemed to notice, his dogs "demeanor???" His dog did not pull on leash ... good enough. 

Interesting enough ... I saw shortly later a (Breed that shall not be mentioned on a Head Halter) and also walked well on leash but he did not seem to feel the same since of shame and embarrassment that the GSD showed??? He was more like ... whatever, it gets me out of the house. 

At any rate a "skilled owner" can walk there dog on anything! Most likely I could use one to walk a dog and it would not really be much of a factor ... but yeah ... I would not. But as it happens and most likely not the point he was actually making .... Larry Khron just got in a "harness," Dog for training! And while not a Halti it was still some "useless tool" for the dogs owner ... but in the hands of a "Skilled Trainer" ... take a look at what happens here. :






Teach a dog to walk properly on a loose leash, is not about the "tool" it's about the owner. But I prefer to use real tools, my preference is a Slip Lead Leash, but a flat leash and regular collar or of course a Prong Collar or all viable options. 

But the Head halti, apparently going beyond psychologically damaging for "some" dogs can also be dangerous.

https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2015/02/10/the-head-halter-torture-pain-and-nonsense-explained/

Got more on getting it done right ...but not on here.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good links, Chip.

Curious, Wombat- and not judging because I hear what you said about the harness/halti vs. the prong from a lot of dog owners- I am wondering why you think the prong is a tool that only works when the dog is wearing it, but the halti/harness operate differently, and work better to train a dog so they are trained faster to walk well without the tool?

Do you have any experience or reason on which to base this statement?

Did your trainer explain why he or she doesn't like prongs, or why he/she thinks they are just a bandaid and a poor choice? 

Again, I'm not going to judge you for your answer, I really do want to know so I can better communicate with the general public, and better understand where they are coming from.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deja has gone prong-collar-smart. I worked hard on transitioning her to a martingale but she it too smart. So I gave in and walk her on a prong if she needs to be leashed. I never have to correct her anymore though, just wearing it is enough. I may try the martingale in a few more months but for now it is the prong. I do take it off when she is off leash for safety reasons. Think swimming, shrubbery, other dogs etc.
She does have a flat collar with her tags when we leave the house.


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

wombat said:


> Thanks for the suggestions about prong collars. I had considered them and am not ready to rule them out, however my current trainer doesn't support them - the main criticism I hear is that the dog only behaves well on the prong. I lack the experience to form an opinion myself, but will keep it in mind.
> 
> At the minute it's my intention to use a martingale collar - he only pulls when other dogs are around that he wants to play with and I intend on training him out of this once he's a little more mature. Until then I don't want him pulling at dogs whilst on a collar and damaging his neck.
> 
> ...


I used a martingale until my pup was about 6 months old then swapped to a prong. In my experience, if a dog is allowed to pull against a collar, it will want to continue pulling and pull harder. On a Martingale, if my pup got overly excited, she would pull until she was choking and keep pulling. The Martingale was not a correction or a deterrent to pulling.

Luckily I have a very good trainer that taught me the correct use of a prong collar. 
The important details were - 
Herm Sprenger prong
Must fit correctly, no slack, and high on the neck. If it's loose it will slide down the neck and the dog wont respond.
NEVER let your dog pull against the collar. If your dog starts to pull, give the leash slack and a quick pop, pop. The pop, pop is what the dog notices and stops pulling. A strong minded dog will continue to pull through the static pressure of the prong collar.
The pop, pop can be as light as a pinky finger tap (which is the norm) or increased to get their attention. With my dog, now 10 months, if she starts to get slightly ahead of me on a walk a slight shake of the leash reminds her to slow down.

I frequently see people walking aggressive dogs on loose, poor quality prong collars and the dog is lunging and pulling and the owner is clueless...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Good point, Solamar! No tool is going to work for you, if you don't know how to use it!


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> Good links, Chip.
> 
> Curious, Wombat- and not judging because I hear what you said about the harness/halti vs. the prong from a lot of dog owners- I am wondering why you think the prong is a tool that only works when the dog is wearing it, but the halti/harness operate differently, and work better to train a dog so they are trained faster to walk well without the tool?
> 
> ...


Yes thanks for the links, Chip!

Muskeg - from what I've heard: 

Do bear in mind I'm a first time owner so I must pick an expert and defer, this isn't an opinion I've formed from experience merely the opinion I've chosen to go with as it's the lowest level to begin from with regard to escalation of force - I've often found in life it's easier to escalate than de-escalate.

Aversive methods don't train the dog to think, only to avoid discomfort. Therefore the prong stops at "when I do this it is uncomfortable, so I won't do it" when the ideal should be "ah, so that's what you want? hey no problem!".

The reason I chose the halti harness (not the head collar - I don't want neck damage!) is that, while it doesn't necessarily encourage thought from the dog it is aversion-free. It seems to simply work on leverage. I can work with that whilst I achieve a distracted heel using positive methods.

The reason I'm reluctant to use aversion unless necessary is that, whilst my dog has boundaries and I have given him a **** good telling off previously, I'm told by my trainer that he is "pretty much bomb proof" and that this is due to the confidence he has in me to protect him. If this is true I don't want to jeopardize that due to him attributing a source of discomfort to me.

Finally, and I should have mentioned this initially, I'm not yet confident with off leash with him - he returns reliably but not with other dogs present and if he antagonised the local chihuahua and a fight ensued it would be my dog that was out of control. I therefore often use a 15ft training lead that I drop on the floor - sometimes I have to do am emergency stop with him and I don't want that momentum from a 15ft run-up to be transferred into his neck.

Thanks for your continued attention, I'm really grateful for the critical appraisal of my approaches - Chuck means the world to me and I want to be the trainer he deserves.

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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

When I got my first GSD,I was told 'you only put an animal in harness if you want it to pull something'. Consequently I used a Halti headcollar which worked perfectly. It was only until I got my second girl I realised that these things (headcollars/ harnesses) are incredibly hard to fit properly, if at all as they are so generic, it was sheer luck that I had managed it the first time.

That being said my current girl is in a Julius Harness. I like the fact it has a handle on it so if you have to grab your dog, it's not by the neck, plus it doesn't have nylon straps under the armpits. However, she isn't the most determined puller and i have worked really hard on her concentrating on me. 

Can't comment on prong collars because they aren't a regular thing where I live. However, for me personally, if I struggle to fit a headcollar properly, I am not confident enough to make a prong work as it should.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wombat said:


> Finally, and I should have mentioned this initially, I'm not yet confident with off leash with him - he returns reliably but not with other dogs present and if he antagonised the local chihuahua and a fight ensued it would be my dog that was out of control. I therefore often use a 15ft training lead that I drop on the floor - sometimes I have to do am emergency stop with him and I don't want that momentum from a 15 ft run-up to be transferred into his neck.


Your "blending" a couple of things together here ... recall needs to be proofed with distractions. And training your dog to "ignore other dogs ... is a thing and "that'"s how I started long before my first GSD ... for the record. 

But if you have a possible issue with this one dog ... keep the 15 foot leash as a back up. But also ... train a "DOWN" and "STAY!" Your trainer ... should have told you that, I would say. 

You show a dog what you want first and then it should not be necessary to trick or yank them into compliance??? I don't know your trainer ... but I'm pretty sure they are the type that, if I'd actually turned to a trainer for Rocky with his people issues, LOL ... like that would happen! But I'm pretty they would have "suggested I use treats to uh trick people into his face" my words there. And "when" that failed and he bit the crap out of someone ... they would have recommend he be put down because he's wired wrong, I believe "weak nerves" is the popular phrase!!! 

Fact of the matter is ... they would have been "WRONG!" I solved Rocky's people issue ... "Correction Free" as it happened. By simply showing him what I wanted and I used a rule to do so ... a "Flat Leash and Regular Collar" as it happened. But these days I use a Slip Lead Lead Leash. And if you think what Larry Khron did with an issue prong dog on a harness was impressive ... "LOL" I should have videoed my first session with a known "claimed puller!" I can say .... "Larry worked to hard! But hey as I am want to say ... there is always that guy! I speak for them. 

But all that aside, I have to ask ... where are you located???


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

wombat said:


> Aversive methods don't train the dog to think, only to avoid discomfort. Therefore the prong stops at "when I do this it is uncomfortable, so I won't do it" when the ideal should be "ah, so that's what you want? hey no problem!".
> 
> The reason I chose the halti harness (not the head collar - I don't want neck damage!) is that, while it doesn't necessarily encourage thought from the dog it is aversion-free. It seems to simply work on leverage. I can work with that whilst I achieve a distracted heel using positive methods.
> 
> ...



This isn't only about aversion in my opinion, it's about communication. An issue I have with PO training is that it lacks clear, black and white communication and consistency with a dog. This is my non-expert perspective, but let me put it this way... imagine your teacher keeps giving you a question. You keep answering, and your teacher says nothing, but keeps handing you the same question again. And again. And again. And then.. hey! All of a sudden you did it right! But do you know why you did it right? Nope. Not a clue. But maybe next time you'll get it faster, and maybe you'll get the reward faster... IF your teacher is good at timing and also completely consistent, too. Imagine if instead you handed it in, and your teacher immediately told you it was wrong. You wouldn't do the same thing again because you know that's not what was asked of you. So yes, you can teach it that way, but it takes a lot longer and it doesn't seem like an ideal working relationship to me. 

I don't think head haltis or front ring harnesses are not aversive, personally. Your dog learns when they pull too hard, they get swung around. If they don't like that, then they won't do it because they don't like how it feels... and that's aversion. It just doesn't look as menacing as a pop with a prong. 

As for your dog being bomb proof? That should mean receiving corrections won't affect his relationship with you, which is perfect! If your dog cowers when you raise your voice and is very handler sensitive, then you definitely don't want to start introducing corrections with something like a prong without the guidance of a very skilled and well rounded trainer. Being bomb proof makes for the perfect beginner dog, because you can't screw them up beyond repair with your poorly timed or managed corrections. If you communicate clearly and your dog isn't handler sensitive, your dog shouldn't be associating the correction purely with you but rather for non-compliance to a command or behaviour it knows very well and can perform. 

What I do for my girl if I'm going to use my 10m line is attach it to a harness, but definitely not a front ring harness. That could be just as damaging to her legs or body if she were to swing around at full speed if I immediately stopped her. So I put it on the back ring for safety reasons and it has worked perfectly so far. I always do my best to grab her attention before she ever gets to the end, but so far she never actually has so I haven't had an issue (knock on wood). So if we're going for a hike or to a large park, I'm always wearing a backpack with her prong, martingale, 10m line, her 6ft leash, and a harness so I can modify what she wears depending on her behaviour or what we plan to do.


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Your "blending" a couple of things together here ... recall needs to be proofed with distractions. And training your dog to "ignore other dogs ... is a thing and "that'"s how I started long before my first GSD ... for the record.
> 
> But if you have a possible issue with this one dog ... keep the 15 foot leash as a back up. But also ... train a "DOWN" and "STAY!" Your trainer ... should have told you that, I would say.
> 
> But all that aside, I have to ask ... where are you located???


I'm in the UK mate. 

He has a good down and stay without exciting distractions. ****, he even maintains a stay when I dance around and throw his toy. However when I've looked at discussion on proofing in other threads I've been told a 5month old dog isn't old enough to proof as they can't filter effectively and he therefore shouldn't be punished for non-compliance with a command he might not have been able to filter out from "DOG! DOG! DOG!". 

In the meantime until he's got a good grasp of that, at around 18 months I'm imagining, I need a way to give him freedom and build up to being off lead - a long line seems to meet that need.

I do use negative markers for training him, and I've been pulling him back into position much like in Chips video, though he's now getting a bit strong to do that with if he's lunging and whining at another dog when wearing his JuliusK9.

I bellowed at him the other day when he was sat at a curb between my feet, as he kept trying to chase cars (also something I'm working on) and I'd said "no" about 5 times. He sat and stopped, but the missus said he looked like he was scared of me. I don't have an issue with that really - sometimes I was scared of my dad if he caught me misbehaving. But I don't want to be reliant on that sort of communication to the point that this is what he expects from me and I become less safe to him (On reflection, I didn't often want to go out and play with my dad). Perhaps my trainer's definition of "bomb proof" is open to interpretation.

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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Femfa said:


> What I do for my girl if I'm going to use my 10m line is attach it to a harness, but definitely not a front ring harness. That could be just as damaging to her legs or body if she were to swing around at full speed if I immediately stopped her. So I put it on the back ring for safety reasons and it has worked perfectly so far. I always do my best to grab her attention before she ever gets to the end, but so far she never actually has so I haven't had an issue (knock on wood). So if we're going for a hike or to a large park, I'm always wearing a backpack with her prong, martingale, 10m line, her 6ft leash, and a harness so I can modify what she wears depending on her behaviour or what we plan to do.



This has worked well for us, too. it may seem like a lot of gear but it is nice to let the dog have more freedom with the long line and harness during a hike, and then more control when passing other people on the trail.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I would say he's probably more handler sensitive and your trainer is likely used to dealing with dogs where using corrections can leave them worse off than before. It's hard to know though, with lots of this stuff you do have to see it in person which is why a good trainer is very important. Not saying yours isn't, I just don't like to discredit all of the tools in the box just because I don't know enough about them yet. I like to stay open and see what will work for me and my dog rather rather than a one size fits all approach. 

My girl is not handler sensitive in terms of vocal or physical corrections. I can yell as loudly or aggressively as I want at my girl, and she just looks at me and wags her tail. She'll listen, but the tone and volume doesn't phase her. If she hops up and tries counter surfing for example, I tend to yell very loud and sternly, "No!". She doesn't look at me, just hops right off, wags her tail, and then turns around to me like, "Ugh, fine, I'll get off... but there's good stuff up there you know!"

You also have to be careful not to humanize corrections in dogs. Dogs correct each other and still go back to play. The dam puts the pup in its place when it acts bratty. The older dog corrections the younger dog for over stepping its boundaries. It's not the correction that stops them from wanting to be around you, it's the lack of praise or fun they have. They're selfish and do what they want for what they'll get in the end. In other words, if you have a strong relationship where the dog is constantly praised for good behaviour, played with and rewarded with winning, given opportunity to bond with you, and you respect the dog and its limits, then corrections won't damage that bond so long as you do what it appropriate for the dog. This is what I've learned so far.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Before I used the prong collar I remember when max wAs about 6- 7 months old I used the dean and Tyler halter with handle in case he pulled. It was not a halter to stop pulling I liked the handle for an emergency break if needed and can be used for tracking. Out of all the equipment we used he was weird about the harnesses dean and Martin harness and the sled harness when we first put it on. Once outside he forgot all about it. The dean and Tyler harness has different patches in training, do not etc. I did find it attracted more attention. Dean and Tyler has great collars and leashes crazy expensive but they run sales 30- 40% off. One Black Friday year we got 40% off and free shipping. 
http://www.dtdogcollars.com/DT-Fun-Harness-p/dth6rfun.htm
When max was a pup we used the head halter we had no issues but I was careful to use it correctly sounds like many people don?t seem to care to. There is a video posted below for people who chose to use a head halter- I would use it for a out of control large dog. I liked to follow up with teaching how to walk in a leash. I would not use it when max went on group family walks as a puppy where he was excited and pulled more.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Typing error my phone died * I would NOT use it for an out of control dog! 
https://youtu.be/OCwpmShooEA my favorite collar is the herm sprenger neck tek prong collar- looks great to and max can walk with a flat collar nice to so we are not dependent on the prong.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

https://www.original-herm-sprenger-...in_page=product_info&cPath=40&products_id=534
Martingale type -not the buckle style. I heard buckle one is faulty with clip.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wombat said:


> I'm in the UK mate.


LOL ... I suspected as much! You guys are an odd "Dog Training bunch!" Kinda sorta "packed with plenty of dog training PO tools! And yet ... way across the pond ... I'm one of the few ... that actually get the "Slip Lead Leash???" And I instinctively knew how to use one on first use and I learned it from a trainer in the "UK!" "Doggy Dan" and to add irony to irony ... he did not use one! 






That right there is how I got the loose leash thing right! And since he is from the "UK" I just assumed ... he used a SLL?? But on closer inspection ... I was stunned to discover ... he did not??? Doggy uses a "regular collar and a flat leash! The "secret is" he does not let "pull on the leash" yield to pressure as it were and "guide" the dog! 

That's pretty much it! But an actual ... "SLL" with the little tabby thing snugged up high "initially" let's a skilled user ... get the crap behavior out of the way ... "out the gate!" All the owner has to do is pretty which wait! As in are you done?? Fine ...off we go! Beyond that ...it's usually a slight tug sideways to get the dog back in line! 

I got more ... but it's not here ... and I'm kinda anal, and I refuse to redo my work! So you know ... pm me if you want to know more. 




wombat said:


> He has a good down and stay without exciting distractions. ****, he even maintains a stay when I dance around and throw his toy. However when I've looked at discussion on proofing in other threads I've been told a 5month old dog isn't old enough to proof as they can't filter effectively and he therefore shouldn't be punished for non-compliance with a command he might not have been able to filter out from "DOG! DOG! DOG!".


Five month thing and what a puppy can't do?? Is uh, "Crap" on here "Pirate's Lair" can speak to that?? On Boxerforum, we have "Smoky and the Bandit" ... an extremely young Boxer "Puppy" trained in "Place" and off leash walking with "Distractions" and he used what, uh many here would consider very advanced tools! But he "showed his work" and I saw nothing untoward in his "puppies" demeanor?? The only thing, I said to him "was I doubt that many first time dog owners could do what he did do, with those tools and a puppy that young??? But "Bandit" got my two thumbs up for his work with "Smoky!" And as I want to say ... there is always that guy! And ... I tend to find them. 



wombat said:


> In the meantime until he's got a good grasp of that, at around 18 months I'm imagining, I need a way to give him freedom and build up to being off lead - a long line seems to meet that need.
> 
> I do use negative markers for training him, and I've been pulling him back into position much like in Chips video, though he's now getting a bit strong to do that with if he's lunging and whining at another dog when wearing his JuliusK9.


Until you have "control" ... a long line is the way to go! But your "blending things." A Julius K9, is not a training harness. You can't "correct" a dog with a harness! Engineering ...not with standing! Engineers are not ... "Dog Trainers!" If your goal is to be able to walk "one dog??" Then sure whatever use a "whatever??" But my goal is to be able to "walk any dog" loose leash and that is what I do. I had regular harness for all my dogs and they walk just fine in them. The harness were never used as a means of control?? They already knew how to walk on a loose leash. It was just a choice I made on occasions because I could ... the harness was "not" a factor in how they behaved. 




wombat said:


> I bellowed at him the other day when he was sat at a curb between my feet, as he kept trying to chase cars (also something I'm working on) and I'd said "no" about 5 times. He sat and stopped, but the missus said he looked like he was scared of me. I don't have an issue with that really - sometimes I was scared of my dad if he caught me misbehaving. But I don't want to be reliant on that sort of communication to the point that this is what he expects from me and I become less safe to him (On reflection, I didn't often want to go out and play with my dad). Perhaps my trainer's definition of "bomb proof" is open to interpretation.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Aww well your dog is apparently a "chaser of cars???" That ... is a serious problem! 

Most likely ... you freaked out! Been there done that! If you get "lucky: you get a chance a chance to rectify the situation! I did and it worked out fine! But you have two choices for crap like "Car Chasing!" You either "squash the behavior out right" by correcting the dog hard! Or you work on "self extinguishing behavior" by training a behavior you do want! 

The latter would be "Sit on the Dog and the "Place Command" ... those train "Calmness into the dog" either approach would work.


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Ok folks, I took Chuck to an obendience class last night as he's never been trained in a public group. The trainer was an advocate of collars and leash pops and several other aversive methods.

I'm about to say why I didn't enjoy it and I'm conscious I may seem arrogant as I do so. I usually hold my tongue in moments like this but I'll just say it how I saw it. For anybody reading it from that class (hey small world!), I'm not naming names and it's not my intention to ruin anybody's reputation on this forum or anywhere else.


As you might imagine he was the worst one there for leash walking because he was so distracted by the other dogs. Until the martingale went on. He thrashed around like crazy at first but then fell in line, but it was emotionally draining to watch his reaction.

With regard to his walking and impulse control, however, in that aspect he was no worse than the trainer's own GSD pup.

We then moved on to recall and then integrated other dogs in the oath of recall for distraction. Again, without meaning to seem arrogant, my own pup had faster, more direct and consistent recall. This included the trainer's own dog who cowered from her when a correction occurred at one point. There wasn't a single instance of him getting distracted and he sprinted to recall every time. He was the youngest dog there (but for the trainer's own dog who was the same age).

I'm not saying my dog is the best and none know better, but this experience has pushed me off the fence on how what I think of the leash correction shouty methods, as the results simply didn't measure up in my opinion to what I as a rank amateur have achieved almost by accident. I didn't see clear communication, I saw mixed messages ("Here! Come! What's this?") and corrections in anger without warning after several uncorrected mis-steps (so how many chances do I get before you smack me down?). Yes, perhaps the graduates of this class who no longer need to come could make me eat my words... I doubt it.

The trainer seemed to advocate eliminating his vocalisations (he was whining at one point), which I partially rely on as a communication method and when he sat on my feet they didn't seem to approve but I just figured my feet were warm for his butt, and I liked the contract.

At the end of the class I put him back on the harness and he went right back to pulling. Dogs don't generalise well as I understand it, so it was no surprise to me that this happened. But there wasn't even a hesitation, which tells me he had simply learned that collars can be uncomfortable - he still had no concept of what I wanted or a desire to deliver it.



My point is I've had a very short encounter with a very narrow selection of people who advocate shouting and physically punishing your dog and I wasn't impressed with their results relative to my own. I wouldn't trust anyone there to show me how to use a prong and I think I'll stay away from them until I am more confident that I'm not going to damage our bond.

When on long lead I'm going to attach it to the D ring on the back of his harness, as I have been doing.

When on the short lead... I might try the martingale again for a while to see if it gets results over time but I'm skeptical at this point that it would be the right answer for me and the dog I have - I'm not convinced that any deep learning or desire to perform is taking hold.

I'm not saying I'm PO - there has to be punishment for belligerence, disobedience and all that. But first I must know the difference between that and a lack of understanding or I will confuse my dog and damage the bond we have. In the meantime the front leading harness for short leash work seems to be the most gentle correction on offer.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

wombat said:


> Ok folks, I took Chuck to an obendience class last night as he's never been trained in a public group. The trainer was an advocate of collars and leash pops and several other aversive methods.
> 
> I'm about to say why I didn't enjoy it and I'm conscious I may seem arrogant as I do so. I usually hold my tongue in moments like this but I'll just say it how I saw it. For anybody reading it from that class (hey small world!), I'm not naming names and it's not my intention to ruin anybody's reputation on this forum or anywhere else.
> 
> ...


Shouting at a dog isn't training. 
Corrections when teaching is wrong. 

Sounds like that trainer sucked. 

I didn't start using corrections on my dog until he understood what I ment.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I have posted this on another thread but here it is again: my vet sees a lot of structural damage because of these frontclip harnesses, as she does with haltis (neck injuries). They don't teach, just manage. A prong collar is safer.


Bingo. Head halters, front clip harnesess, "choke chains", even flat buckle collars do physical damage (usually life long) far more frequently than a prong. Prongs get a bad rep from people who literally have no idea how to manage a dog on leash in the first place and don't know anything about the tool at all. Prongs are designed to stop pulling and AVOID causing pain or damage. But they have to be used right or they're just as dangerous as the other tools. Look up how to do the "prong collar dance" beforehand. The dog will likely never pull and it will learn before you even take it for the first walk that IT (not you) controls when it feels pressure and most importantly it learns how to turn that pressure off. You'll never have to do more than a two finger flick and you'll have a dog that immediately walks in a near perfect heel with a loose leash. It really is nearly instant and you can easily translate what it'll learn with a prong into off leash training with zero issues. It just takes a little research. So much easier.

Edit: Also necessary is that they're fitted properly. Should be VERY snug high on the neck, just below the jawline. If it's too loose or too low, again, you'll have a tool that causes as much pain and discomfort, stress and long term damage as the other tools.


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

NerdicEclipse said:


> Bingo. Head halters, front clip harnesess, "choke chains", even flat buckle collars do physical damage (usually life long) far more frequently than a prong. Prongs get a bad rep from people who literally have no idea how to manage a dog on leash in the first place and don't know anything about the tool at all. Prongs are designed to stop pulling and AVOID causing pain or damage. But they have to be used right or they're just as dangerous as the other tools. Look up how to do the "prong collar dance" beforehand. The dog will likely never pull and it will learn before you even take it for the first walk that IT (not you) controls when it feels pressure and most importantly it learns how to turn that pressure off. You'll never have to do more than a two finger flick and you'll have a dog that immediately walks in a near perfect heel with a loose leash. It really is nearly instant and you can easily translate what it'll learn with a prong into off leash training with zero issues. It just takes a little research. So much easier.
> 
> Edit: Also necessary is that they're fitted properly. Should be VERY snug high on the neck, just below the jawline. If it's too loose or too low, again, you'll have a tool that causes as much pain and discomfort, stress and long term damage as the other tools.


Thanks, I'll keep this in mind if I'm unable to get the behaviour to stop in the near future. 

But I'm going to have a bit of difficulty finding a competent prong collar coach in my area from what I've seen so far and a little YouTube knowledge can be a dangerous thing in inexperienced hands.

I imagine damage from front leading harnesses occurs when you have a determined puller - Chuck isn't that and doesn't even try to pull when on the front D-ring because he's realised it gets him nowhere.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

wombat said:


> Thanks, I'll keep this in mind if I'm unable to get the behaviour to stop in the near future.
> 
> But I'm going to have a bit of difficulty finding a competent prong collar coach in my area from what I've seen so far and a little YouTube knowledge can be a dangerous thing in inexperienced hands.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there are a lot of ignorant folks on YouTube. When it comes to prong introduction you'll want to watch people who actually know what they're doing when it comes to dog training (especially with prongs) like Robert Cabral or Jeff Gellman. Even though they look medieval they are not sharp. They do not penetrate. I've had a guy at work put both hard as he could instant pops on my own neck and his whole 185lbs of weight steady on it. It DOES NOT hurt. A lot of people really get put off by the look and those folks that don't know how to train a dog in the first place preaching against them.

Robert Cabral on why the bad rep is undeserved and "pure positive" trainers outright lie about it:





And on how to fit it:





Jeff showing how to introduce it:






But right, if he's not a determined puller it's not as likely to cause a problem. Where the damage with any of the other tools is usually done is when they see something that they immediately want to lunge after. That's when you get structural damage from the "gentle leader" and front clip harnesses. Or when you get tracheal damage from flat buckles. That sharp jerking action is what causes damage. The prong stops that urge altogether once the dog is introduced to it and knows how it functions/how they turn it on or off. And even if they somehow do get that urge and jerk on you, it absolutely cannot hurt them if fitted right.


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

NerdicEclipse said:


> Yeah, there are a lot of ignorant folks on YouTube. When it comes to prong introduction you'll want to watch people who actually know what they're doing when it comes to dog training (especially with prongs) like Robert Cabral or Jeff Gellman. Even though they look medieval they are not sharp. They do not penetrate. I've had a guy at work put both hard as he could instant pops on my own neck and his whole 185lbs of weight steady on it. It DOES NOT hurt. A lot of people really get put off by the look and those folks that don't know how to train a dog in the first place preaching against them.
> 
> Robert Cabral on why the bad rep is undeserved and "pure positive" trainers outright lie about it:
> https://youtu.be/M7KpJ7-ZZ8w
> ...


I've seen Jeff Gelman and his ilk slammed a lot on this forum (see the bonking thread, if you dare!). 

Is it the majority or minority of folks here that have that view?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

wombat said:


> I've seen Jeff Gelman and his ilk slammed a lot on this forum (see the bonking thread, if you dare!).
> 
> Is it the majority or minority of folks here that have that view?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


A lot of people are uncomfortable with actually TRAINING their dog. They think punishment is abuse and that you can never, ever tell a dog no. They want to say yes without ever having to say no, even though by the nature of not using all 4 quadrants of traning they say no in a far more cruel way, far more often than those that do use all 4. They think allowing bad behavior to a degree and withholding reward until a good behavior comes teaches. It doesn't. The dog never figures out what's wrong. It DOES figure out how to get a reward, but it results in a badly behaved dog that knows how to get reward but doesn't really know what behavior it shouldn't be doing because good behavior is marked, but bad behavior is never actually marked. No is never given context. 

Personally I find the opposite to be true. "Pure positive" is absolutely cruel. It's mental abuse in the most extreme sense, whereas correction is quick, concise and you both move on immediately without having to revisit the issue ever again in most cases. With PP you still punish. Any time you withhold a treat, you're punishing. Any time you put a leash on AT ALL you're punishing. Any time you withhold praise or affection, reward of any kind, it's a punishment. Trouble is, those punishments have no context and dogs don't tend to learn from them. it goes against how they naturally learn. It's uncomfortable, it's stressful and it's extremely cruel. This is why a "yes and no" approach immediately gets results with long term, permanent lessons learned VERY quickly while "pure positive" can leave you begging and bartering for weeks or months. A dog is much more stressed and upset when it has no context. Look at their natural behavior. When another dog steps out of bounds, they don't offer each other kisses or pets and treats. They very briefly give an intolerable correction to the other dog. This is what dogs understand. This is how dogs learn. Remember, that's an intolerable punishment. Not necessarily painful or causing injury. It's a contextual physical correction that tells the other dog "Hey, it sucks when I act like a jerk, I better not do it again".

Punishment though should always be given in a calm, even way. You should never be angry. It should never cause pain. Punishments must be intolerable, but that is different than pain. And it's different for every dog. And it should always be with context. Screaming at the dog (like PP trainers inevitably end up doing), lecturing the dog, turning around and withholding attention in a huff, those are nearer to abuse than a correction. They also are reactive rather than proactive. I can get a dog to stop before a behavior even happens by issuing a very small correction. I'm talking a finger flick on the leash or a very light tap with a bonker. I'll never have to yell at the dog, never have to beat the dog, never have to scream at it, withhold something, etc. 

It's a case of different strokes for different folks. Some prefer to have a short if slightly uncomfortable conversation with our dogs through a tool and eliminate a behavior entirely and for good, others prefer to chase problems for weeks, months or even sometimes years, bartering and begging and ultimately causing entirely unnecessary frustration and stress for both involved.

I also don't get the logic some have. For example once debating the topic of prongs, remote collars and bonkers there was this joker that was saying how cruel they are. But he was fine with literally kneeing his dog in the chest for jumping. Which unlike the other three, actually IS abusive and can absolutely cause extreme physical damage. They usually have a need to virtue signal against tools and methods they don't understand simply because some TV wacko told them something is bad while something worse is fine because hey, at least it's not those wicked tools.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

wombat said:


> Ok folks, I took Chuck to an obendience class last night as he's never been trained in a public group. The trainer was an advocate of collars and leash pops and several other aversive methods.
> 
> I'm about to say why I didn't enjoy it and I'm conscious I may seem arrogant as I do so. I usually hold my tongue in moments like this but I'll just say it how I saw it. For anybody reading it from that class (hey small world!), I'm not naming names and it's not my intention to ruin anybody's reputation on this forum or anywhere else.
> 
> ...


By your discription this class sounds like a bit of mess. This is a different class than you spoke of in the start of this thread? If this was your first visit to this class your pup was probably "on his best behavoir" so to speak. A second or third visit could yield different results as he becomes more comfortable. When looking into other classes/trainers I would visit a class without my dog and observe first and get a feel for how they work.

The bolded, I'm confused, are you saying your dog had a noticeable reaction to wearing the martingale? Martingale collars are designed to keep dogs from backing out of the collar, they shouldn't be aversive. I've used martingales with all my dogs and none had a reaction. The only noticeable reaction I've encountered was due to a head halter and it was severe.


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Nigel said:


> The bolded, I'm confused, are you saying your dog had a noticeable reaction to wearing the martingale? Martingale collars are designed to keep dogs from backing out of the collar, they shouldn't be aversive. I've used martingales with all my dogs and none had a reaction. The only noticeable reaction I've encountered was due to a head halter and it was severe.


Yes he did. The moment the leash went tight and the collar was pulled he fought against the lead, threw himself about, flopped on the floor like a fish and verbally protested. 

Then he fell into line and performed a decent heel, but the above behaviour occurred at least 4 more times and I was told to just carry on and ignore him. 

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Has your dog ever experienced a martingale prior to this training session? Or a slip lead? If not, it's very possible that's the reason he reacted that way. He experienced something uncomfortable, didn't know why it was happening, it worried him, and he freaked out. With any training tool, it's good to have a dog introduced to it before using it in a training session. I know with introducing the prong to my girl, I put it on in the house and let her walk around with it for awhile. Then we moved into leash walking in the back yard for a bit so she could understand what the feeling would be if she pulled against it (just on the dead ring). After she understood it and I saw she was comfortable, then she wore it in a stimulating environment.

I'm with Carm... I would be a bit disappointed after that. You don't teach a new behaviour with corrections. My girl is 7 months now, and we're working on heel too. It's always positive, upbeat, lots of praise and rewards. She doesn't understand what "Fuss" means without being lured yet, which is fine by me. We'll progress as we progress. If she offers the behaviour on our walks (walks right beside me with her shoulder at my knee, looking up at me), I immediately reward her by saying, "Yes! Good Fuss!" and treat. In fact, I don't go anywhere in the house or out in public without treats if she's with me.

What I think is a very sad sight to see in training is using lots of corrections with little to no praise. That isn't balanced to me. Your dog doesn't behave, fine - use your negative marker and if necessary, a correction - but once the behaviour is given, there should be plenty of praise and a reward. Why else would the dog want to do it? That's just my perspective though.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wombat said:


> Yes he did. The moment the leash went tight and the collar was pulled he fought against the lead, threw himself about, flopped on the floor like a fish and verbally protested.
> 
> Then he fell into line and performed a decent heel, but the above behaviour occurred at least 4 more times and I was told to just carry on and ignore him.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


I'm sorry but "I" am not much impressed with your trainer. A Martingale Collar ... despite what people tend to believe ... is not a training collar. 

Your dog reacted "poorly" because he was banging against the collar and it did as designed and constricted??? That is what was freaking him out but that should not be happening. 

I just posted this but a proper leash correction is a "Sideways" motion with the leash to get the dog off center. And as soon as the dogs butt, is in front of your thigh ... you've lost the "very slight window of opportunity" for a proper correction and the next "stop" is gonna be ... banging into the end of the leash. 

A "slight tug sideways" before the dog get's out in front of you ... is not gonna destroy your relationship with him?? It will "show him what you want and where he is suppose to be." 

Halter's and front clip harness and there like are designed for owners, that don't want to ... well learn anything and so take the this tool will solve all my problems??? But hey they sell millions of them, so I suppose they can work ... with the right dog?? But they are nothing, I will ever use or recommend and I have no "relationship" issues with my dogs or dog's I work with??


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## wombat (Jun 16, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> I'm sorry but "I" am not much impressed with your trainer. A Martingale Collar ... despite what people tend to believe ... is not a training collar.


Not my trainer mate - I'm guessing you skim read my post. No worries it was a long one!

My trainer is the one that got me to the point that my 5 month old was the best behaved dog in the random class that I showed up to try.

What you say about the off-centreline correction interests me though. I've kinda found this myself by accident (it's easier to disrupt forward momentum from an angle than it is to dig in my heels) but different people say different things - some say pull the dog into you some people say pull it outwards away from your body.

Chuck likes to walk into me anyway - apparently getting stood on multiple times hasn't been a good enough lesson on its own. I've been pulling him outwards to combat this.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

wombat said:


> I imagine damage from front leading harnesses occurs when you have a determined puller - Chuck isn't that and doesn't even try to pull when on the front D-ring because he's realised it gets him nowhere.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Your pup is 5 months old (the whole world is exciting) and not a determined puller. I would work on getting him to concentrate on you with treats, fuss, tug toys so you become more exciting than anything else. If you need extra control, use a double ended lead, one link on the julius harness, the other end on a flat collar. 

If as he gets older, look at other techniques. And your expectations might be different from mine, I am just looking for a well behaved family pet.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wombat said:


> Not my trainer mate - I'm guessing you skim read my post. No worries it was a long one!
> 
> My trainer is the one that got me to the point that my 5 month old was the best behaved dog in the random class that I showed up to try.
> 
> ...


LOL ...yes most likely ... I did get confused. 

And yes ... "stumbled onto or not" ... you got it right! It is a slight tug sideways, uh ... towards you! And thanks for pointing that bit out??? It never occurred to me, that anyone would try the other direction???? Now that you know that ... reconsider your "Martingale" experience. 

Hm ... OK I actually reread and I see ...he's crowding you??? That's a different issue?? Frankly it seems to me that's what the IPO/Sports dog do??? It would get on my last nerve but as I have no issues with that particular problem ... I'll leave that "issue" for them. 


Although I do think, I recall something about bumping the dog with your knee to gain some space ... but not sure on that one???


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

wombat, The description of your pups reaction to the martingale is very similar to a pups 1st reaction of pressure from its first regular flat collar. please correct me if I am wrong, but in your "time outs" thread, you indicated that your pup does not wear a flat collar. That he had a reaction to the flat collar also so you chose to stick with a harness until he learned not to pull. 

Your choice is fine but I think the reason why the reaction to the martingale wasn't the tightening of it but that he is not use to anything around his neck or any pressure on his neck. 

If I am wrong, my apologies, if I am correct, I think the best thing you can do is let your pup wear a flat collar while you are still using the harness. Every so often, while guiding with the harness, let him also feel slight pressure from the flat collar but stop the pressure before he reacts. This will help him get use to the feel of it around his neck without causing conflict.

This will also help immensely if you ever do decided to try the prong collar or and training collar that applies pressure on the neck.

My boy wears no collar in the house, a flat collar in the back yard and a prong when we are out and about. The first time he experienced the pressure of the prong, all he did was stop what he was doing. He did not fight the collar but he also was raised with a collar on his neck. 

I hope this helps or clears up why there was such a reaction to the martingale.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

You could always take the PURELY POSITIVE APPROACH of these two POSITIVE MEGASTARS: Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar!


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Wolfhund said:


> You could always take the PURELY POSITIVE APPROACH of these two POSITIVE MEGASTARS: Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7xkfNEStxk




LOL. Because that's definitely not at ALL a correction similar to what you do with a prong... because the prong is the devil and heaven forbid you use one. /sarcasmoff

Edit: Oops. Sorry for going off topic mods.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Femfa said:


> LOL. Because that's definitely not at ALL a correction similar to what you do with a prong... because the prong is the devil and heaven forbid you use one. /sarcasmoff
> 
> Edit: Oops. Sorry for going off topic mods.


The hypocrisy of Jean Donaldson is breathtaking. In this video she even states that maintaining constant pressure is criminal then she proceeds to hang the dog from the muzzle with negative reinforcement for what seem like at least 4-5 seconds. She does not even used a command so the dog does not even know what it is expected of him. I will go far as to say Jean Donaldson is a fraud. I am currently reading "Culture Clash" by her and although she has some interesting points here and there about taking into account the dog's perspective, 70% of the book is laden with propaganda and inaccuracies and contradictions. I don't think this strays too far off topic because this directly ties in with the inaccuracies perpetuated by trainers who think harnesses and head halters are the superior tools for stopping pulling in dogs.

Edit: She does use the sit command, but her timing is completely off and only says sit after the dog has been hung by the muzzle for already 2-3 seconds.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

wombat said:


> As I don't have a pulling problem outside of a narrow (but common) circumstance, it's my intention to treat any anti-pull solution be it harness or collar as a temporary patch until he's mature enough to focus with distraction - I achieved loose lead walking without either and I therefore see aversive methods as a Plan B.


There could be potential fallout if you wait too long to apply leash pressure. If you wait til the dog is already a couple years old and then start applying leash pressure too late the dog could fold from the pressure or redirect on you. Exposing them or rather conditioning them to leash pressure when they are younger let's them know what pressure feels like and let's them adapt to stress later when you do need to use pressure.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A freaking emergency pole, are you kidding me??? I'd be extremely curious as to how that dog would react to being charged by a loose dog and what she do if her dog does not "Stay" while she dealt with it?? Most likely she'd either rip his head off in an effort to "Yank" him away or cut and run?? But maybe those things don't happen over there??? Wow ... that was certainly different???

Oh well, she'd be in trouble in my neighborhood ... Street Lights (poles) are pretty widely spaced.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Femfa said:


> As for your dog being bomb proof? That should mean receiving corrections won't affect his relationship with you, which is perfect! If your dog cowers when you raise your voice and is very handler sensitive, then you definitely don't want to start introducing corrections with something like a prong without the guidance of a very skilled and well rounded trainer. Being bomb proof makes for the perfect beginner dog, because you can't screw them up beyond repair with your poorly timed or managed corrections. If you communicate clearly and your dog isn't handler sensitive, your dog shouldn't be associating the correction purely with you but rather for non-compliance to a command or behaviour it knows very well and can perform.


This is very interesting. This probably another reason why new trainers start off with a Malinois as their demo dog.



Femfa said:


> So if we're going for a hike or to a large park, I'm always wearing a backpack with her prong, martingale, 10m line, her 6ft leash, and a harness so I can modify what she wears depending on her behaviour or what we plan to do.


It would be very helpful if you could explain why you choose to bring those specific tools with you and how you use them. aw:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Umm... malinois are usually very handler sensitive and generally not a good beginner trainer dog. Many lines are known for handler aggression for poorly timed or unfair corrections.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Umm... malinois are usually very handler sensitive and generally not a good beginner trainer dog. Many lines are known for handler aggression for poorly timed or unfair corrections.


I don't think she meant Mals were good dogs for beginners??? But a like of the trainers I tend to reference use there personnel Mals and GSD's in there work, with dog aggressive dogs.

I get that myself ... Rocky broke a stay on one occasion and stopped my neighbors massive Pit/Mastiff mix (broke form the open garage) as he came at us hard and fast! That dog looked serious to me ...but Rocky broke his stay ...stepped up beside and smiled in the hands face??? The Mastiff Mix hit the breaks hard ...sat down and smiled backed???? Sometimes ... daddy does not make good choices ...

At any rate I think something like that is what she meant????


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sorry to take this off topic, but while some malinois are bombproof, most are super tuned in to their handler's emotions, and you really do have to know what you are doing when handling them. They'll go from 0 to 100 in the blink of an eye. And they'll redirect and come up the leash fairly readily (depends on the genetics, but also on early handling). 

You can create the "look" of a bombproof malinois with OB, that's what you see in these trainer's dogs usually. But most malinois don't come pre-packaged that way. That said, some malinois can indeed handle harsh corrections and bounce back, but they may not bounce back in the way you want.

In short, not a beginner dog and not bombproof without a lot of work, and even then, genetics have to be there too. 

The above can also be true for many GSD, it's the same "type" of dog, but different breed, not uncommon for similar traits to be present. Sensitive, reactive, but also hard to corrections. You need to know what you are doing!

That is why I am hesitant to get into the details with the OP's original issue. It's not super time consuming, but having a dog walk well on a leash and respond even with distractions is pretty much what everyone wants, and with GSD and malis it can be a lot more complex than simple techniques- it's a lifestyle issue.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Wolfhund said:


> It would be very helpful if you could explain why you choose to bring those specific tools with you and how you use them. aw:


Harness and 10m lead are for safety reasons - if I'm in a new area that is too open and I don't trust her recall or other people, then I put her harness on and clip my 10m lead on the back clip. That way she can roam as far as she likes, which is generally only about 10 feet ahead of me, and come back and forth. In case of emergency the leash handle is ready to grab and I can stop her safely if she were to run full speed and come to a jerking halt.

The martingale or flat and 6 foot lead are for when I trust her to behave, or when we've moved from an area where being off-leash or harness/leashed is no longer reasonable. Generally she's on the 6ft and martingale/flat when we enter or exit hiking trails, walking on her familiar path, or if we're just going to the store.

The prong and 6ft are for when I know we'll be in a stimulating environment where her puppy excitement will win over her sensibility. I never give a correction on the live ring. It's all on the dead ring for now, meaning she self-corrects for her behaviour. But I view the prong as a tool, and not as an every day thing. There will be a point where we won't need the prong in stimulating environments.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> That is why I am hesitant to get into the details with the OP's original issue. It's not super time consuming, but having a dog walk well on a leash and respond even with distractions is pretty much what everyone wants, and with GSD and malis it can be a lot more complex than simple techniques- it's a lifestyle issue.


Simple ... does not preclude a "life time of responsibility and an owner making good choices for there dog??" The best preparation for the unexpected ... "is a well trained dog."

KISS is how I roll ... lessons learned from Rocky.


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