# Got charged on my walk



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

ok I was working with my dog Goren (my AST mix) on his formal heel (I think that is what you call it, when they heel and are looking up at you) anyway, I did it on a walk, have been working on a few days in the yard. He did great, not doing this the entire way but would put him in it for anywhere from 3 steps to 100 steps and he was grasping it quite well. I stopped because he was getting tired, I think I was makeing his brain hurt hehe, so we headed home. There is a Golden Retreiver that lives on the corner house, about 8-10 houses down. I see the kids that live there out on the sidewalk playing with bottle caps, so I go into the street no biggy...I see as I round the car there over weight Golden running into the tree from around the house after a cuzz toy that was thrown from the porch , now I am a little frusterated, I hold my ground, the dog has not seen me or Goren so I pray he would not. About 10 seconds pass with the dog in the street then it finally sees us and charges...I get between Goren and the dog, Goren is not DA but he was not going to back down, he was trying to protect the pack (the body lang. projecting told me if the dog backed down he would have) but anyhow by this time the owner is screaming for her dog to come, he finally listens after I dance with it and Goren for about 20 seconds. She apologizes about 4 times but mean I was POed, I did not talk to her, I think she realized how close her dog was to being dead, Goren might not be DA but his breed knows how to kill dogs...If her dog would have laid a tooth on him the owner would have gotten a vet bill, there is a leash law here and I pray she will now follow it. I hate idiot owners, I am just so tankful Lola was not with me.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> but anyhow by this time the owner is screaming for her dog to come, he finally listens after I dance with it and Goren for about 20 seconds. She apologizes about 4 times but mean I was POed, I did not talk to her, *I think she realized how close her dog was to being dead,*


Your dog will kill any friendly dog running up to say hey? Not sure I agree with that. 

In my world, normal dogs come up and want to say hey in a normal way. normal normal normal.

For my dog to immediately injure such a friendly dog coming up to say hey....... would be something I would seriously be working on to fix. The liability when my neighbors puppy slipped it's leash to run over to me and then get killed my inappropriately aggessive dog would be pretty high. And the guilt when I should have conditioned my dog to a normal dog greeting would have been unbearable.

Dogs are social. So while my dogs don't have to LOVE all dogs. They darn sure better put up with a normal greeting while I figure out what going on and I TAKE CONTROL. It's not up to MY dog to injure/kill another dog that just ran up to greet us.

Maybe I misread your post though?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What is an AST?


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

you did misread it

the dog was NOT friendly, hence the title, it CHARGED, ran at my dog AGGRESSIVELY, my dog is VERY socialized, he is the top in his OB class now and was the top in his last one. He interacts with Lola 24/7, sleeps with her, and loves her, also interacts with my fiance's DISABLED terrier mix (he cannot use his back legs due to getting hit by a car), the Golden Retriever was very VERY aggressive, I know dog body language and if I would not have stepped between them and the owner was not able to get control the dog would have full on attacked, sorry if I did not make that clear, the Golden was very DA, not my AST, my AST is very socialized and loves all dogs in general, heck there were some dominant dogs in a yard on our walk and he did submissive gestures as we walked by.


AST = American Staffishire Terrier


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Glad that the woman apologized. It could have been much worse. People with dogs who are generally easy, breeds that tend to be friendly with dogs and people, are sometimes a little careless in believing other dogs are too, or why do you have them out. 

I know it is not right, but for as many people who just walk right up and into my dogs face, it is usually the labs and the goldens that people seem to think that every other dog in the universe is just like them. 

And we who have breeds who are not, have to be that much more careful lest we end up in a court case we will not win, or that it will not matter whether we win or not, because the damage is done. 

Again, at least she was there, got her dog and apologized.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Who knows why the Golden reacted like that. Some goldens are nasty while many are really easy going. 

Hope she is more careful from here on out.

Thanks for the breed. I did figure it out eventually, but I always thought it was American Staffordshire Terrier. I have no idea where my spelling came from. I am always unsure at the abbreviations. I mean this is a GSD site and we should be expected to figure that out, but PB, BC, AST, AS, GR, SB, BM, and more than 100 others, is a bit much.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

While I'm not condoning her dog charging up, I will say that situations like this are fairly common in the 'real' world (or at least in the NJ/NY/PA area). Over enthusiatic and exuberant greetings from charging dogs that completely ignore their owners.

Just another reason I do what you do. Train and socialize my dog so they know how to behave. Know what I expect. And when these situation occur (and they do) there is only ONE dog I have to keep an eye on and it's not mine. 

I've seen a few 'real' dog fights and the people that go in between are the ones that had the more serious injuries and trip to the ER. So the more control in the situation the better. Interesting that the vast majority of the greetings with the charging I've found out just to be rude and inappropriate greetings from the oncoming dog. So I do not get bit. My dog isn't bit. It's just extremely exciting while control is regained of the dogs.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea, I am so glad she got her dog because I don't know how long I could have danced before it got confident enough to try to jump past me. I think people that get Golden's and that such and end up with a dog aggressive one (which this dog obviously was) really need to understand if they have a dog aggressive dog, they need to protect the public and keep it leashed, fenced, or tethered so people can walk a dog without getting charged. I am almost tempted to get some stuff on Dog aggression and toss it in her mail box so she might get educated, or at least the leash law of my city.


----------



## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

This is what I read: Golden (w/ kids out front) . Elliehana w/ her dog...dog charges...in my opinion, the friendliest dog in the world would get defensive, and the golden may well be protecting those kids. A horrible situation indeed! Years ago our neighbor's two K-9s got out...we were in the near by park and they charged us. I was terrified of what was about to happen and yelled-in my most commanding voice at those dogs to "Go Home:...they both stopped and ran off...whew!


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea, I have had a few of those greeting's maggieroselee, this was not one of them saddly, last one i has I was riding my bike with Goren (I have a walkydog), and he dead stopped, I see a little beagle charging, but body lang told me it was not aggressive, he just stood there, did not look at it and was submissive.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea you could be right judny I am not sure, I know the lady has little control when she walks her dog, but it could have been "protecting" its pack, it did not seem defensive but if its not well socialized also then that could have been the case.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

selzer said:


> Thanks for the breed. I did figure it out eventually, but I always thought it was American Staffordshire Terrier.


Are we sure it's not? American Staffishire Terrier - Google Search

From google:


> Did you mean: American Staffordshire Terrier


http://www.dog-spoiling-made-easy.com/American_Staffordshire_Terrier.html



> The American Staffordshire Terrier (AST), is a stocky, muscular and agile dog...


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People call them Am Staffs so often that I really wasn't sure. Thanks.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

lol yea I can't spell the middle word so I guessed and it looked right (my SP did not have the spelling for some odd reason and I did not want to google >.< )


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> Who knows why the Golden reacted like that. Some goldens are nasty while many are really easy going.
> 
> Hope she is more careful from here on out.
> 
> Thanks for the breed. I did figure it out eventually, but I always thought it was American Staffordshire Terrier. I have no idea where my spelling came from. I am always unsure at the abbreviations. I mean this is a GSD site and we should be expected to figure that out, but PB, BC, AST, AS, GR, SB, BM, and more than 100 others, is a bit much.


This has already been covered, but I multi-quoted it, so I'll just re-state that is is Staffordshire. It's spelled just like it's pronounced.  I hate mis-spellings of so many breeds, especially when people own Staffishires and Sheppards, so it's a peeve of mine I make sure I know. 

I'm with you on the abbreviation thing thoug- I know most of them and knew this one, but they can definitely get confusing!



MaggieRoseLee said:


> I've seen a few 'real' dog fights and the people that go in between are the ones that had the more serious injuries and trip to the ER. So the more control in the situation the better. Interesting that the vast majority of the greetings with the charging I've found out just to be rude and inappropriate greetings from the oncoming dog. So I do not get bit. My dog isn't bit. It's just extremely exciting while control is regained of the dogs.


I broke up a dog fight that a dumb lady initiated at the shelter I work at last week and wound up in the ER with three stitches.  And I didn't even get in the middle. :help:



Elliehanna said:


> yea, I am so glad she got her dog because I don't know how long I could have danced before it got confident enough to try to jump past me. I think people that get Golden's and that such and end up with a dog aggressive one (which this dog obviously was) really need to understand if they have a dog aggressive dog, they need to protect the public and keep it leashed, fenced, or tethered so people can walk a dog without getting charged. I am almost tempted to get some stuff on Dog aggression and toss it in her mail box so she might get educated, or at least the leash law of my city.


If the dog charged, and then did nothing for 20 seconds, are you sure he was aggressive? What body language that you know so well was the dog displaying? I don't see a loose DA dog holding off for 20 seconds when they have the chance in ANY situation.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

no it did not do nothing, I was dancing with it, it did mini charges to try to get past me, I was blocking it. right before it got to me is when the owner started calling so I think it was more like "yes no yea no" and my boy was giving submissive queue's so it was very confused in my opinion. I think it was more of the "defending" the kids as was suggested to me than anything else. I am going to note, I have dyslexia so I 99% of the time spell things how they sound, but I donno that word seems like it should be spelled differently so always trips me up


----------



## dianefbarfield (Apr 12, 2010)

Just this evening I was walking Lizzie, practicing heels and down the street at full speed, screaming at the top of her lungs comes an unleashed terrier. She is often out and chases everything and everyone. Lizzie reacted by lunging on the leash but immediately sat when I told her to and just watched the dog come. I truly wished I could just release her and let her put an end to it (I know, that is not the proper attitude) but I am so tired of dogs like that. This dog was far from her house, not protecting anything, just running toward us and screaming. One time a gentleman on a bicycle got between us and the dog and chased it back home. What a nuisance. If Lizzie had hurt it I am sure they would have blamed her. She was a good girl though.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

that sucks dianefbarfield, I am glad I don't have that, but if your dog would hurt it, and there is a leash law you would be in the clear and THEY would have to pay you for any vet bills your Lizzie would need from the stupid terrier. I hate stupid people that do not contain there dog, you would think if they loved it they would contain it so it would not be in the road...


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

DJEtzel said:


> This has already been covered, but I multi-quoted it, so I'll just re-state that is is Staffordshire. It's spelled just like it's pronounced.  I hate mis-spellings of so many breeds, especially when people own Staffishires and Sheppards, so it's a peeve of mine I make sure I know.
> 
> I'm with you on the abbreviation thing thoug- I know most of them and knew this one, but they can definitely get confusing!


Hey, as long as members on "German Shepherd Dog Forums" know how to spell shepherd - I'm happy. On this board it's not required to know how to correctly spell other breeds or know all their abbreviations.  I remember a member talking about her GSP. I thought for the longest time she had the P wrong and meant D. Turns out she was talking about her German Shorthaired Pointer. 



DJEtzel said:


> If the dog charged, and then did nothing for 20 seconds, are you sure he was aggressive? What body language that you know so well was the dog displaying? I don't see a loose DA dog holding off for 20 seconds when they have the chance in ANY situation.


I was kind of wondering this also.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Elliehanna said:


> no it did not do nothing, I was dancing with it, it did mini charges to try to get past me, I was blocking it. right before it got to me is when the owner started calling so I think it was more like "yes no yea no" and my boy was giving submissive queue's so it was very confused in my opinion. I think it was more of the "defending" the kids as was suggested to me than anything else. I am going to note, I have dyslexia so I 99% of the time spell things how they sound, but I donno that word seems like it should be spelled differently so always trips me up


I'm sorry, I know I wasn't there, but this doesn't sound aggressive at all to me. It sounds like the dog wanted to meet yours but didn't because you were being intimidating. You didn't say anything about the dog growling, barking, lunging, etc. which probably would have been going on if the dog was aggressive, or the dog would have bypassed you completely and started killing your dog. Sounds like it was friendly, but afraid of you. A good thing, definitely, but I wouldn't have been worried about my dog.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Vinnie said:


> Hey, as long as members on "German Shepherd Dog Forums" know how to spell shepherd - I'm happy. On this board it's not required to know how to correctly spell other breeds or know all their abbreviations.  I remember a member talking about her GSP. I thought for the longest time she had the P wrong and meant D. Turns out she was talking about her German Shorthaired Pointer.


I've corrected people a lot on that too, because they had a GSD but were saying P. Half the time I got a response like "Oh, I didn't know GSP was something different" (Then what did you think the P meant??) and the other half of the time people got upset at me because they meant German Shepherd Puppy. 

Well how was I supposed to know!?


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

so, do you have a dog that's reactive and if so
why didn't you train/socialize your dog so it
wouldn't be reactive?

i use he type encounters you encountered
as a training session.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

I thought I did, he had a very deep growl, no barking, he was very very intense on his stair down, me being between the two was kinda like a dog behind a fence. he was lunging, before I got between them he got 3 lunges as I pulled Goren back, Goren was backing up and jumping back to get out of his way so that helped and was why it took e so long to get between them. I know friendly dogs, like I said I know dog body language very well, and this dog was no where near friendly. It was trying to get around me I had to dance with it like I have said, that means keeping me between them, moving as the other dog moved and pulling Goren with me to keep the distance, I ended up in the middle of the street and I started out where I had rounded there car and stopped by the curb.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

ok I am going to say READ ALL MY POSTS, My dog is not reactive at all, he does not react aggressively towards any dog, he is very well socialized, top in his OB class, and is striving to be the top in his Intermediate OB class he is in now, I can walk him into petsmart at noon without him trying to even get to the shelter dogs barking on either side of the door......


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Elliehanna said:


> I was POed, I did not talk to her, I think she realized how close her dog was to being dead, Goren might not be DA but his breed knows how to kill dogs...If her dog would have laid a tooth on him the owner would have gotten a vet bill, there is a leash law here and I pray she will now follow it. I hate idiot owners, I am just so tankful Lola was not with me.


I think people are reading your posts. To many when you say the Golden's owner "realized how close her dog was to being dead". You give us the impression that your dog could be "reactive".

Another thing to keep in mind is that a leash law applies to you too. Being a "AST" owner you also have to be extra careful when you say things like "his breed knows how to kill dogs". 



DJEtzel said:


> I've corrected people a lot on that too, because they had a GSD but were saying P. Half the time I got a response like "Oh, I didn't know GSP was something different" (Then what did you think the P meant??) and the other half of the time people got upset at me because they meant German Shepherd Puppy.
> 
> Well how was I supposed to know!?


Exactly! I honestly didn't know that GSP meant something different, but GSD people think in terms of GSDs.  I mean come on - is there really any other breed of dog?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> so, do you have a dog that's reactive and if so
> why didn't you train/socialize your dog so it
> wouldn't be reactive?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure who you're addressing or what you're trying to prove, but this isn't a fair assessment. 

My dog was trained (and still is) extensively, and socialized extensively from a very young age. He's great with kids, cats, dogs, puppies, small dogs, etc. and listens on and off leash just fine in high distraction areas. 

I have a reactive dog at 10 months old. Nothing I did or could have done would have changed the fact that he got attacked and became reactive. I've trained most of this away, while there is still some reactivity depending on the area, but you cannot say that I didn't train him or socialize him enough to prevent this.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Vinnie said:


> Exactly! I honestly didn't know that GSP meant something different, but GSD people think in terms of GSDs.  I mean come on - is there really any other breed of dog?


Well, being a shelter worker, and coming from an all-breed dog forum previously, I'm very familiar with other abbreviations, but don't expect everyone else to be, I just forget sometimes! Definitely true here though- everyone thinks in terms of GSD. I do too usually when I'm here, it's like other breeds *don't* exist. Especially when most other users ONLY have GSDs and here I am with a beagle...


----------



## milkmoney11 (Feb 11, 2010)

I guess in situations like this be glad you have a GSD. I feel really sorry for people with small dogs who have to go through this and have no shot of their dog standing a chance if it turned into a fight. 

If my dog attacked the other dog after the other dog charged and beat the crap out of it, I wouldn't feel bad. I guess its a tough lesson for the other owner that their dog needs to be on a leash. I would do everything in my power to stop it but in the end, the people are almost asking for it. 

Like you said, if anything happened to my dog in the ruckus, you can bet they will receive the vet bill as well. 

I live in a subdivision where at least one dog runs up to Cash on I on our walks and isn't tied out every day. Thankfully, all the dogs have been friendly and none are bigger than him and he's only 5 months and 50 lbs. He's just a puppy so he wants to play too, but I worry about what is going to happen when he's 90 lbs and has lost his puppy love.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I believe the OP only has a Staffy and a young GSD mix. Nothing big, but could hold it's own.

I'm just as worried about my GSD as I would be of a smaller dog though. Actually, I'm more worried because I could pick a small dog up. I cannot pick up my 10 month old GSD. Nor do I think he would effectively stand his ground and fight off someone attacking him. He's been attacked twice, once at 6 months and once at 8. Both times he coward and rolled on the ground, not growling, biting, or attempting to defend himself. Nor should he have to, honestly. He's close to 90 lbs at 10 months now and I still know he wouldn't defend himself if he had to, which is worse because he's a target for many more dogs now, because he's bigger and intimidating, intact, and not much of a puppy anymore, more of a threat.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

When I read the topic line I thought he got charged with a ticket from the cops...


----------



## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

at least the owner apologized.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> When I read the topic line I thought he got charged with a ticket from the cops...


lol.

To the OP: In your first post you did NOT state anywhere that the Golden was aggressive. You did not say he/she growled, lunged, or bit you or your dog. Also you stated that the dog's owner is lucky because your dog can kill other dogs. That made it seem like your dog is aggressive, and that isn't something you want especially for your dog's breed.

Thats what I got out of your post.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> lol.
> 
> To the OP: In your first post you did NOT state anywhere that the Golden was aggressive. You did not say he/she growled, lunged, or bit you or your dog. Also you stated that the dog's owner is lucky because your dog can kill other dogs. That made it seem like your dog is aggressive, and that isn't something you want especially for your dog's breed.
> 
> Thats what I got out of your post.


Me too.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> stated that the dog's owner is lucky because your dog can kill other dogs. That made it seem like your dog is aggressive


I took it the way that his dog could kill the other dog because he is just that powerful but that the dog itself usually isn't aggressive, however you never know what can happen when another dog charges him, he might feel provoked and attack afterall.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I took it that she has a breed known to being capable of killing other dogs, so that the Golden's owner probably realized she dodged a bullet. 

We sometimes have to guard against other people's negligence, ignorance, stupidity. It is the normally friendly dog owners that have it worse -- people who own hunting dogs and medium sized amiable breeds and mixes. The small dog owners KNOW that their dogs can be in deep trouble if a nasty dog tries to eat it. Formidable dog breed owners KNOW that their dogs are powerful and they should spend plenty of time training and socializing to avoid any possible problems, but people with medium sized amiable dogs walk out on lead with their dogs without the constant vigilence that we tend to maintain. When their dogs are accosted, they cannot really defend themselves, and their owners are at a loss.


----------



## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

I would jus carry a HOT SHOT with me and if a dog came at us Zap the lil basterd and that should end it. Oh a HOT SHOT is a cattel prod. And they work.  if it will move a cow it will stop a dog from comming at you and its not deadly.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I took it the way that his dog could kill the other dog because he is just that powerful but that the dog itself usually isn't aggressive, however you never know what can happen when another dog charges him, he might feel provoked and attack afterall.


this is EXACTLY what I meant, my boy is actually rather large, and not fat, he is 25 inches tall to the shoulders and 70 lbs, and with the Am. Staff. in him he has the instinct to know what to do in a fight, when he plays he always goes to ground and to the chest, not the neck.



selzer said:


> I took it that she has a breed known to being capable of killing other dogs, so that the Golden's owner probably realized she dodged a bullet.
> 
> We sometimes have to guard against other people's negligence, ignorance, stupidity. It is the normally friendly dog owners that have it worse -- people who own hunting dogs and medium sized amiable breeds and mixes. The small dog owners KNOW that their dogs can be in deep trouble if a nasty dog tries to eat it. Formidable dog breed owners KNOW that their dogs are powerful and they should spend plenty of time training and socializing to avoid any possible problems, but people with medium sized amiable dogs walk out on lead with their dogs without the constant vigilence that we tend to maintain. When their dogs are accosted, they cannot really defend themselves, and their owners are at a loss.


you got that right, I walk my boy with a 3 foot lead (to those that thought he was off leash..had his chain spot collar on, a prong on and a 3 foot leather Ella's Lead leash on the prong, folded over to be 1.5 feet long, that is how I walk, even when training heel. Always expect a bulldog to fight.



ChristenHolden said:


> I would jus carry a HOT SHOT with me and if a dog came at us Zap the lil basterd and that should end it. Oh a HOT SHOT is a cattel prod. And they work.  if it will move a cow it will stop a dog from comming at you and its not deadly.


you know that is not a bad idea, I live in a podunk town, I know they sell them at the feed store, I just don't know if that would be legal, but if I said the dog was coming at me not my dog I could use it (protecting myself you know)


----------



## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

Here were I live farmers keep them in there truck wether working cows or not. They may need it for something else its kinda like a long tazer I don't think it should be aginst the law. Jus call the local PO and see what they say. Good luck


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

An ast is an am staff but is is a mix most would call it a pit bull. A pit bull. Will attack other dogs and this would not be out of the norm for the breed. Maybe the op should walk a different way to avoid contact


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

cagirl said:


> An ast is an am staff but is is a mix most would call it a pit bull. A pit bull. Will attack other dogs and this would not be out of the norm for the breed. Maybe the op should walk a different way to avoid contact


yes it is, and if I see the dog off leash again I will be contacting ACO, I do walk many ways away from my home and back, so it is not often that I pass that house, but that is the way to the river so if I am taking my dog over to swim I have to pass that house. I have the ACO on my cell phone though so if I do see it off leash I can call fast and take a photo to prove it. I don't want to change my routine of going to the river, my boy loves to swim but if I can't get the owner to abide by the law and the ACO to take care of it I will have to stop going to the river.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Good ideas. The other owner needs to wake up lol


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Just wondering you are going to let your dog attack another dog? Especially since he can be considered a pitbull? No matter what breed of dog it is, allowing a dog to bite or attack another dog is not good.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

I would never allow my dog to attack another dog, I would rather get bitten than my dog. My dog is not dog aggressive and if he did get into a fight it could turn him dog aggressive, why in the world would I want that? My goal with my dog is to get his CGC then his Therapy title so he can go visit hospitals and nursing homes, if he bit another dog that goal would be ruined.


----------



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

Okay...I am from the same place as kristen (elliehanna) and i have personally meant her, goren and lola...Kristen is the nicest person ever and knows her dogs very well...
Goren is a very socialable and loveable dog. I have to say that NOT everyone in this town gives a rats A** about leash laws..ACO does not enforce it neither will he ever. The dogs that attacked us from up the road, STILL till this day runs all over the place, and now he has a new dog...I will say that rather that retriever was aggressive or not, i think kristen you did the right thing, as a dog owner of larger breeds, we have to protect them, if that other dog had bitten goren, I guarantee you, goren would be in trouble, our ACO does not like Breeds like him, and if you go to our shelter that is what you will find, and he doesn't care to pts...But kristen, if you keep having troubles with this dog, let me know...if you have anymore run ins with any dog, go up to the sherrifs department and have it documented and put on file...That is what i was told to do, to protect my dogs...Oh and for the record, i don't care how well you train your dogs or what breed of dog, or if you are the worlds greatest trainer, that dog chooses when to and not to listen...


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Elliehanna said:


> I would never allow my dog to attack another dog, I would rather get bitten than my dog.* My dog is not dog aggressive and if he did get into a fight it could turn him dog aggressive, why in the world would I want that?* My goal with my dog is to get his CGC then his Therapy title so he can go visit hospitals and nursing homes, if he bit another dog that goal would be ruined.


No one said your dog was aggressive. And if he gets into a fight with another dog doesn't mean he will become DA, he might or might not.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

thanks so much Andrea, yea I started feeling like I was defending myself on here...I hope I have no problems, and yea if I do I will go up to the sheriff and file a report. I know I would have taken a bite rather than letting my dog get bitten. I just hope that the lady learned a life lesson, she walks past Goren on a daily basis, he barks at her but is contained. Oh and is that the little mutt looking dog that runs loose over there? If it is, it ran up to Goren when we were biking by one night, and almost got hit by a car, it stopped about 4 feet away and I turned Goren around, then the owner came out and blamed the dog  (not Goren but the other dog, because the owner did not contain


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Elliehanna said:


> thanks so much Andrea, yea I started feeling like I was defending myself on here...I hope I have no problems, and yea if I do I will go up to the sheriff and file a report. I know I would have taken a bite rather than letting my dog get bitten. I just hope that the lady learned a life lesson, she walks past Goren on a daily basis, he barks at her but is contained. Oh and is that the little mutt looking dog that runs loose over there? If it is, it ran up to Goren when we were biking by one night, and almost got hit by a car, it stopped about 4 feet away and I turned Goren around, then the owner came out and blamed the dog  (not Goren but the other dog, because the owner did not contain


How sad! I hope that person gets hit.Ok maybe thats a little mean.


----------



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

ummm which ugly looking thing...there are literally 3-4 dogs that run that block...If he was grey and white with big ears then no...That is Dirf, they have just recently let him start running, and he ain't neutered and already got the female pregnant that attacked ryder...

Then there is the yorkie(dolly) and The jrt looking thing (scrappy) up the road, this is where we got attacked...


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

o then I think it was dirf, it was a scruffy dog maybe I donno 15 lbs? kinda gray I think (it was night) I was about to walk Lola, maybe I will walk by hehe she is HUGE


----------



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

well i am getting ready to go to the store....i will be walking later tonight if you want i can get ahold of you b4 hand and you could go then...


----------



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

probaly won't be until at least 7 or 8 b4 i go.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea, if I wait that late I will get bit up by mosquito, if I end up going by I will knock on your door so you can see her , I was trying to wait till she went potty (was walking the yard since I just bathed her but she wouldn't go so now she is out with Goren, ganna check and if she did go I will go for a walk hehe)


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea she did so Ima start walking, probably just go over there since I want you to see her


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

lol I'm back and you did not answer, so maybe your at work haha, never thought to ask if you were home >.< no matter you will see her sometime soon I am sure


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Well confused by pit bull owners on a gsd forum but if ac doesn't like pit bulls better avoid problems you know the golden won't get blamed


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea, a few reasons I am here, I found out about ryder&sophiesue so I came over to this forum to lend a hand, and I made a friend, another reason is I love GSDs and we are both in the same boat, when a breed ban passes almost always contains pit bulls and GSDs, another reason is my pup








she is an AST (Am. Staff.) GSD mix


----------



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

OMG she is absolutely beautiful....I thought there were other people on here who don't own shepherds but want to or that have shep mixes, or heck who don't have dogs, want difference does it make...we are here to learn./


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> OMG she is absolutely beautiful....I thought there were other people on here who don't own shepherds but want to or that have shep mixes, or heck who don't have dogs, want difference does it make...we are here to learn./


 I agree it's a gorgeous puppy!!! And I don't think it really matters if you own a shepherd on here, just that you adore the breed!!!


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

yea, I do adore the breed, I grew up with fond memories of 2 GSDs that I interacted with frequently as a child, one of my fav. TV shows was Rin Tin Tin (reruns, I am not that old but they played them and I loved them)


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Heyy RinTinTin is awesome!! My mom has the videos and we still watch them. We also watch the gsd version of White Fang and I personally love All Dogs Go To Heaven, because of Charlie. Haha.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

o yea all dogs go to heaven is a classic, I don't think I have seen the GSD verson of white fang, I like all movies with dogs in them like turner and hooch and iron will, balto was great hehe hatchi was sad, all dogs go to heaven two, the old war dog movies about WWI (I think it could have been WWII) I just love animal movies


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Elliehanna said:


> o yea all dogs go to heaven is a classic, I don't think I have seen the GSD verson of white fang, I like all movies with dogs in them like turner and hooch and iron will, balto was great hehe hatchi was sad, all dogs go to heaven two, the old war dog movies about WWI (I think it could have been WWII) I just love animal movies


 Animal movies are great, but I can't watch any sad ones. If a person dies I'm like "Well that sucks." But when an animal dies I ball my eyes out lol. But if you can get a hold of White Fang, it's great. Have to agree on Balto... Classic!!


----------



## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> OMG she is absolutely beautiful....I thought there were other people on here who don't own shepherds but want to or that have shep mixes, or heck who don't have dogs, want difference does it make...we are here to learn./


I don't have a GSD right now. We did have one when I was a child and I love the breed. I don't have a dog at all, but I do have 2 cats. I plan on having a GSD again someday soon and in the mean time I am learning so much on this forum. 

Thanks,

Judy


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

cagirl said:


> An ast is an am staff but is is a mix most would call it a pit bull. A pit bull. Will attack other dogs and this would not be out of the norm for the breed. Maybe the op should walk a different way to avoid contact


Amercan Staffys are not a mix, first of all, and they are not pitbulls either though most mistake them for one. There is a difference. 



Ryder&SophieSue said:


> Oh and for the record, i don't care how well you train your dogs or what breed of dog, or if you are the worlds greatest trainer, that dog chooses when to and not to listen...


Uhm, no. If you train it right from the start and train it correctly/well, it should never choose when to listen and when not to. When dogs are trained and proofed, that means they listen 100% of the time, which is the goal of training, and is within reach of most dogs.


----------



## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> Amercan Staffys are not a mix, first of all, and they are not pitbulls either though most mistake them for one. There is a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm, no. If you train it right from the start and train it correctly/well, it should never choose when to listen and when not to. When dogs are trained and proofed, that means they listen 100% of the time, which is the goal of training, and is within reach of most dogs.


 
Sorry but still don't agree...Oh well doesn't matter...Kristen i hope you don't get charged again


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> Sorry but still don't agree...Oh well doesn't matter...Kristen i hope you don't get charged again


Its the truth. If your dog chooses when to listen and not to listen then you didn't train the dog well enough. There is a reason for training dogs.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

There's really nothing to agree or disagree with. Training a dog means making it listen to you when you ask it to, not when it wants to.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

otherwise most would never listen to us. why else would they stop chasing prey, just because we told them too?


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

you can train as much as you can but if you end up with a "pit bull" type dog that has been bred to fight, and then end up with the manifestation of dog aggression its kinda like trying to train a pointer not to point, it was bred into them. You can manage and lessen dog aggression but if a dog is dog aggressive you can not 100% guarantee it will not fight. (my dog is not dog aggressive I will say this again) I would not expect a dog bred for generation after generation to not show its traits. I also expect my training to mean something however. I do know if I tell him to leave it he leaves it, no matter what, he was less than an inch from Lola's food bowl today (when I brought him in, she was not inside) and I said leave it, he did not touch it, he turned around and came back to me. I expect that from him, I have proofed his leave it many times over, but to proof not to fight would be very very dangerous.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> Sorry but still don't agree...Oh well doesn't matter...Kristen i hope you don't get charged again


knock on wood, I walked Lola yesterday and they were not home (I walked past on the opposite side of the street so I could see and have time to react before the dog would have seen me if it would have been out) when I was going home from seeing if you were home hehe


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> There's really nothing to agree or disagree with. Training a dog means making it listen to you when you ask it to, not when it wants to.


 
OTOH, no dog can be considered 100% in obeying commands even though some come extremely close. There always might exist some distraction that would be too much.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

If you haven't found the distraction and they've still listened every time, then it is 100%, as far as I'm concerned. 

And ellie- I'm not talking about fighting dogs, but if your dog is not aggressive and nothing happens to make him become aggressive, then there's no reason to think he would be aggressive to another dog, right?


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> If you haven't found the distraction and they've still listened every time, then it is 100%, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> And ellie- I'm not talking about fighting dogs, *but if your dog is not aggressive and nothing happens to make him become aggressive, then there's no reason to think he would be aggressive to another dog, right?*


the part in bold confuses me, most Dog aggression is marked by something, with the "pit bull" a lot of dogs "age" into it, they will be fine up until about 2 or3 years and then just turn on, and never turn off, others have triggers like getting bullied and then finally retaliating, others its pure dominance. I do not own a dog aggressive dog so I would not know if they would be aggressive with another dog. There are dogs that are selective, they do not like individual dogs, and some that are tolerant, some like puppies but as soon as they hit 6 months they will fight with them. It really all depends on the dog and situation, not all dog aggressive dogs are dog aggressive 100% of the time, if so then every breeding of dog aggressive American Pit Bull Terriers would have to be artificial insemination.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm not talking about other dogs, I'm talking about yourrrrrs.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Amercan Staffys are not a mix, first of all, and they are not pitbulls either though most mistake them for one. There is a difference....................


Thought they were one of the breeds contained in the term - "pit bull'

From Wikapedia = 
"*Pit Bull* is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the molosser family. Many breed-specific laws use the term "pit bull" to refer to the modern American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and English Bull Terrier."

Is this a mistake?


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Thought they were one of the breeds contained in the term - "pit bull'
> 
> From Wikapedia =
> "*Pit Bull* is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the molosser family. Many breed-specific laws use the term "pit bull" to refer to the modern American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and English Bull Terrier."
> ...


 Not a mistake, but the American Staffordshire Terrier isn't literally a pitbull, they're smaller and an AKC breed. Or... I think that's the main difference? I'm not so knowledgeable on these breeds..


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Elliehanna said:


> you can train as much as you can but if you end up with a "pit bull" type dog that has been bred to fight, and then end up with the manifestation of dog aggression its kinda like trying to train a pointer not to point, it was bred into them. You can manage and lessen dog aggression but if a dog is dog aggressive you can not 100% guarantee it will not fight. (my dog is not dog aggressive I will say this again) I would not expect a dog bred for generation after generation to not show its traits. I also expect my training to mean something however. I do know if I tell him to leave it he leaves it, no matter what, he was less than an inch from Lola's food bowl today (when I brought him in, she was not inside) and I said leave it, he did not touch it, he turned around and came back to me. I expect that from him, I have proofed his leave it many times over, but to proof not to fight would be very very dangerous.


Let me make this clear NO ONE SAID YOUR DOG WAS AGGRESSIVE. And Pitbull dogs were not bred to fight.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Am staffs are a term the akc gave them. Basically the first am staffs registered were pit bulls. They are the same thing just they are bred for look and American pit bull terriers bred for work. Them the ukc registers am staffs and pit bulls as American pit bull terriers.


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

cagirl said:


> Am staffs are a term the alchemy gave them. Basically the first am staffs registered were pit bulls. They are the same thing just they are news for look and American pit bull terriers bred for work. Them the ukc registers am staffs and put bulls as American pit bull terriers.


 Ohhh. I learned something new. Thanks Cagirl, for giving that info


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Pit bulls were and still can be bred to fight. As fat as size a true pit bull iS 20 to 45 pounds am staffs are running 60 to 80


----------



## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

cagirl said:


> Pit bulls were and still can be bred to fight. As fat as size a true pit bull iS *20 to 45 pounds am staffs are running 60 to 80*


 I thought it was the other way around. BYB's in my neighborhood BUSTED. Is the Staffordshire Terrier smaller or what? What's the diff. between them, pits and Am. Staffs?


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

cagirl said:


> Pit bulls were and still can be bred to fight. As fat as size a true pit bull iS 20 to 45 pounds am staffs are running 60 to 80



No. They were not originally bred to fight. The only reason they are bred for fighting is for those sickos who use them for their dog fighting ring. They were not originally registered as Pitbulls. They were bred for farm work, guarding the home and companionship. The part where they were bred for fighting was for a "sport" but thats not what they were originally bred for.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> No. They were not originally bred to fight. The only reason they are bred for fighting is for those sickos who use them for their dog fighting ring. They were not originally registered as Pitbulls. They were bred for farm work, guarding the home and companionship. The part where they were bred for fighting was for a "sport" but thats not what they were originally bred for.


and they were bred to be nannies for little kids, but I forget what breed of "pit bull" it was since there's like four different breeds labeled as "pit bull"


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DCluver33 said:


> and they were bred to be nannies for little kids, but I forget what breed of "pit bull" it was since there's like four different breeds labeled as "pit bull"


Yes they were also bred to be nannies. Pitbull is a term used to label dogs that looks like a certain dog that resembles any of the breeds that can be considered a pitbull.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yes they were also bred to be nannies. Pitbull is a term used to label dogs that looks like a certain dog that resembles any of the breeds that can be considered a pitbull.


like the Target dog their considered to be a "pit bull"


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DCluver33 said:


> like the Target dog their considered to be a "pit bull"


Yep. SO is the dog from Little Rascals.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yep. SO is the dog from Little Rascals.


oh yea I forgot about that dog lol


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Ugh ok they are registered UKC and ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers, they were bred for many generations for fighting. They were not bred for farm work. There were bull dogs that were bred for farm work etc but the bull dogs were crossed with terriers to make the American Pit bull terrier, the AKC registered Colby's dogs as Am Staffs to get away from the fighting history. Yes the general public labels all kinds of dogs as pit bulls which is bad when these other breeds start biting since pit bulls are a registered breed and registered as American Pit Bull Terriers they get all the blame


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) FAQ

In 1936, thanks to "Pete the Pup" in the "Lil Rascals" and "Our Gang" who familiarized a wider audience with the APBT, the AKC jumped on the bandwagon and registered the breed as the "Staffordshire Terrier". This name was changed to "American Staffordshire Terrier" (AST) in 1972 to distinguish it from its smaller, "froggier", English cousin the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. In 1936, for all intents and purposes, the AKC, UKC, and ADBA version of the "Pit Bull" were identical since the original AKC stock came from pit fighting dogs, which were UKC and ADBA registered. During this time period, and the years that preceded it, the APBT was a well-liked dog in America. At this time the APBT was considered an ideal family pet. Because of his fun-loving, forgiving temperament, the breed was rightly considered an excellent dog for families with small children. Even if most of them couldn't identify the breed by name, kids of the Lil Rascals generation wanted a companion just like "Pete the Pup". During the First World War, there was an American propaganda poster that represented the rival European nations with their national dogs dressed in military uniforms; and in the center representing the United States was an APBT declaring in a caption below: "I'm neutral, but not afraid of any of them."

Since 1936, due to different breeding goals, the American Staffordshire Terrier and the American Pit Bull Terrier have diverged in both phenotype and spirit/temperament, although both, ideally, continue to have in common an easy-going, friendly disposition. [2] Some folks in the fancy feel that after 60 years of breeding for different goals, these two dogs are now entirely different breeds. Other people choose to view them as two different strains of the same breed (working and show). Either way, the gap continues to widen as breeders from both sides of the fence consider it undesirable to interbreed the two. To the untrained eye, ASTs may look more impressive and fearsome, with a larger and more blocky head, with bulging jaw muscles, a wider chest and thicker neck. In general, however, they aren't nearly as "game" or athletic as game-bred APBTs. Because of the standardization of their conformation for show purposes, ASTs tend to look alike, to a much greater degree than APBTs do. APBTs have a much wider phenotypical range, since the primary breeding goal, until fairly recently, has been not to produce a dog with a certain "look" but to produce one capable of winning pit contests, in which the looks of a dog counted for nothing. There are some game-bred APBTs that are practically indistinguishable from typical ASTs, but in general they are leaner, leggier, and lighter on their toes and have more stamina, agility, speed, and explosive power.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

cagirl said:


> Ugh ok they are registered UKC and ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers, they were bred for many generations for fighting. They were not bred for farm work. There were bull dogs that were bred for farm work etc but the bull dogs were crossed with terriers to make the American Pit bull terrier, the AKC registered Colby's dogs as Am Staffs to get away from the fighting history.


THe dog fighting thing was for people who had no time on their times and wanted to see animals go at each other. That is NOT what they were bred for or supposed to be bred for. They were originally bred and used for farm work, guarding the homestead, nannies, and compaionship. That is what they are supposed to be bred for and were originally bred for.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I thought it was the other way around. BYB's in my neighborhood BUSTED. Is the Staffordshire Terrier smaller or what? What's the diff. between them, pits and Am. Staffs?


Here is the 3 registries that register them and this is pretty good idea may help ya.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> THe dog fighting thing was for people who had no time on their times and wanted to see animals go at each other. That is NOT what they were bred for or supposed to be bred for. They were originally bred and used for farm work, guarding the homestead, nannies, and compaionship. That is what they are supposed to be bred for and were originally bred for.


Ok I dont ant to go back and forth but those were bull dogs when the bull baiting was outlawed they then turned to pitting them against each other easier to hide then bull baiting, this is where they were crossed with terriers to make smaller, fiestier dogs, IMO each person put in what they thought would produce more gameness and then it became a breed. Iam just trying to help people understand.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

cagirl said:


> Ok I dont ant to go back and forth but those were bull dogs when the bull baiting was outlawed they then turned to pitting them against each other easier to hide then bull baiting, this is where they were crossed with terriers to make smaller, fiestier dogs, IMO each person put in what they thought would produce more gameness and then it became a breed. Iam just trying to help people understand.


Understand what? That is not what they were initially bred for.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Thought they were one of the breeds contained in the term - "pit bull'
> 
> From Wikapedia =
> "*Pit Bull* is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the molosser family. Many breed-specific laws use the term "pit bull" to refer to the modern American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and English Bull Terrier."
> ...


Pit bull is not a term, it's a breed, short for American Pit Bull Terrier. It is its own breed entirely, but the uneducated public cannot tell the difference in many breeds and because the Staffy and Bulldog were used in pit fighting, many people call all of them pit bulls, which they are not, and is an incorrect term. 



cagirl said:


> Am staffs are a term the akc gave them. Basically the first am staffs registered were pit bulls. They are the same thing just they are bred for look and American pit bull terriers bred for work. Them the ukc registers am staffs and pit bulls as American pit bull terriers.


They are not the same thing. They are a different breed in body shape, temperment, and size. The first dog registered with the AKC as an Am Staff was a pitbull as far as I know, but the breed has changed and evolved into it's own breed since then. Pitbulls were registered seperately with AKC a long time ago, until fighting became such a popular frowned upon sport, then they ditched the APBT as a way to punish fighters, I suppose, so that they could not register them or sell them for as much. The UKC registers only APBT as pitbulls, actually. Am Staffs are registered through the UKC as Staffordshire Bull Terriers. 

eta; if you look at the picture chart, you can cleary see that the dogs registered as Am Staffs in AKC are Am Staffs, not pit bulls.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Pit bull is not a term, it's a breed, short for American Pit Bull Terrier. It is its own breed entirely, but the uneducated public cannot tell the difference in many breeds and because the Staffy and Bulldog were used in pit fighting, many people call all of them pit bulls, which they are not, and is an incorrect term.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
If you send in the papers from an AKC am staff they will register it as Pit bull but the UKC just recently closed it books to AKC dogs. Staffy bulls are yet another different breed, much smaller and compact.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Isn't the Bull Terrier also referred to sometimes as a "pit bull"?

The AKC doesn't register any dog as a "pit bull", do they?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

No, the AKC does not have a pitbull listing. 

They have the Am. Staff listing, which some pitbulls can get in on, but since their breed has developed differently, they're doing this less and less. It's just for Am. Staffs. 

The bull terrier is not usually referred to as a pit bull.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

Ok this is a TON of Quoting, I got off last night and went to work today so this is my 1st time on today, EVERYTHING Cagirl said is TRUE




Jessiewessie99 said:


> Let me make this clear NO ONE SAID YOUR DOG WAS AGGRESSIVE. And Pitbull dogs were not bred to fight.


The ORIGINAL pit bull came from the Bull and Terrier, that was used for Bull Baiting and changed to dog on dog BEFORE the "Pit Bull" EVER Existed, ALL Bully Breeds originally were either bull baiting or in the pits. The American Pit Bull Terrier did not even originate until AFTER the pits, the Am. Staff was in the pits 1st then went of into a show like, much like the show line of a Black Lab comparison to a Working line, the show lines of many breeds differ greatly, with the Bully breed, the show line is larger, the APBT is normally not biger than 50 lbs and most are around 35-45 lbs, the AST is between 30 and 60 and normally run around 55 lbs.



cagirl said:


> Pit bulls were and still can be bred to fight. As fat as size a true pit bull iS 20 to 45 pounds am staffs are running 60 to 80


So True, but if we say "pit bull" we have to include the American bully...I hate to but that means upwards of 100+ lbs



Jessiewessie99 said:


> No. They were not originally bred to fight. The only reason they are bred for fighting is for those sickos who use them for their dog fighting ring. They were not originally registered as Pitbulls. They were bred for farm work, guarding the home and companionship. The part where they were bred for fighting was for a "sport" but thats not what they were originally bred for.


Yes the only reason is because of the sickos from YESTERYEAR when the breed originated, I might not like the fighting but I have to be grateful for the old time dogmen (nothing like todays dog fighters you see get busted) Without them, this breed would not exist simple as that. A greyhound is bred for sport, originally I think it was foxing (that is a sport...) now for racing. The original Bulldog that does not exist anymore, though people are trying to bring them back, they will never be really back, they were bred for a sport, Bull Baiting.




DCluver33 said:


> and they were bred to be nannies for little kids, but I forget what breed of "pit bull" it was since there's like four different breeds labeled as "pit bull"


This IS something they ended up as, NOT something they were bred for, it was a result of the absolute NO human aggression, if a pit dog bit, it was kills, its offspring were killed, it was a zero tolerance, and the reason is because if a pit dog redirected in the pit the handler could have been seriously injured.




Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yes they were also bred to be nannies. Pitbull is a term used to label dogs that looks like a certain dog that resembles any of the breeds that can be considered a pitbull.


Yes, the actual definition of the pit bull for legal matters is ANY medium dog that has short hair, a muscular build and a wedged head



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Yep. SO is the dog from Little Rascals.


Yes, the dog from the little rascals was an American Pit Bull Terrier, not a dog resembling one, they also have been on the cover of times magazine more than ANY other animal (I think more than any human too but I don't remember).




cagirl said:


> Ugh ok they are registered UKC and ADBA as American Pit Bull Terriers, they were bred for many generations for fighting. They were not bred for farm work. There were bull dogs that were bred for farm work etc but the bull dogs were crossed with terriers to make the American Pit bull terrier, the AKC registered Colby's dogs as Am Staffs to get away from the fighting history. Yes the general public labels all kinds of dogs as pit bulls which is bad when these other breeds start biting since pit bulls are a registered breed and registered as American Pit Bull Terriers they get all the blame


Yea, dogs that were used on farms were I think a breed that turned into the American bulldog I THINK I am not 100% on that one




Jessiewessie99 said:


> THe dog fighting thing was for people who had no time on their times and wanted to see animals go at each other. That is NOT what they were bred for or supposed to be bred for. They were originally bred and used for farm work, guarding the homestead, nannies, and compaionship. That is what they are supposed to be bred for and were originally bred for.


this was before TV was common in every house hold. It was a different time back then, people did not baby animals, everything that got fed had a purpose and if it did not fulfill that purpose it would be culled, chickens that did not lay any longer would be killed, it was a different way of life. People today that dog fight have no time on there hands, the times have changed, and today comparison to back then it is ILLEGAL, back then it was LEGAL, it became Illegal in the 70s. Bull baiting was outlawed I think over 100 years before dog fighting was.




cagirl said:


> Ok I dont ant to go back and forth but those were bull dogs when the bull baiting was outlawed they then turned to pitting them against each other easier to hide then bull baiting, this is where they were crossed with terriers to make smaller, fiestier dogs, IMO each person put in what they thought would produce more gameness and then it became a breed. Iam just trying to help people understand.


Yea Calgirl you know your stuff, I hope people listen to one of us...I am really wondering why they have such thick heads...


Also Wikipidia is NOT a valid sight, there IS a website that goes on there and changes info on an hour by hour basis if you change it to what is should say about pit bulls, not about other things. (not sure what you took from it but wanted to let you know) sites that have info that might be of some interest to people that want to learn would be.
the AKC and UKC site, petfinder's info on the breed
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
Pit Bull Breed History -- Pitbull

It does really frustrate me when people say "the pit bull was not bred for the pits" when it WAS and they refuse to recognize it, its like saying a Border Collie was not bred for herding, Yes the Am. Staff has been out of the pit for a while, but the American pit bull terrier sadly has not, 40 years for a breed is nothing when the breed is hundreds of years old (and in those 40 they are still being used illegally by people, not dogmen, but people...)


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Elliehanna said:


> .........................
> 
> *You made a lot of comments above - most of which I coudn't follow exactly but I assume that you are also responding to my quote from Wikapedia about what dogs are included in the term "pit bull".*
> 
> ...


Have a nice day.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

"It does really frustrate me when people say "the pit bull was not bred for the pits" when it WAS and they refuse to recognize it, its like saying a Border Collie was not bred for herding..."

Get used to it, when people try to change history to make it read the way they want it to. 

I did not have a dog in this fight, so I wrote out a lot of this info and backed, but I also agree that the breeds were created for fighting.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Have a nice day.


ok the AKC = the Am. Staff. (The show breed of the "pit bull")
the UKC = the game bred version (the American pit bull Terrier)
I did not say that the info you posted was wrong because in all honesty I do not read the things posted about pit bulls from Wikipedia after so much fact info got changed because of a website I will not mention. If you go and look up the stats from the AKC and UKC you will get the Actual stats of the "pit bull". Wikipedia is not aloud to be used in schools because ANYONE can post ANYTHING, it does not have to be documented or valid, not saying everything is not but it does not have to be.


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Elliehanna- you keep saying that the Am. Staff. and pitbull are the same thing. Just because they can be registered as such to please a certain registry does NOT mean they are, as they aren't.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that when they make legislation concerning pit bulls, they include the AKC breeds, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and the Bull Terrier, along with other breeds recongnized by other clubs, and they often and Dogo Argentia and Cane Corso to the list.

So the Am Staff is not exactly the show breed of the pit bull.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The individual Am Staff we are talking about is a mix though, or did I read that wrong?

If you have a Am Staff cross and someone calls it a pit bull, well, however incorrect that may be, I have to almost understand the confusion.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

I never said they were the same breed, that was Cagirl, they have the same origin, they have split, over the years, they have different standards. The Am. Staff is the SHOW breed, the APBT is the working breed.
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup
A working line of dogs comparison to a none working line of dogs can be similar to each other or different, they can have different names, like a smooth coated, a flat coated, a rough coated. A working line dog as you should know has more energy than a show line dog. Getting a Working Line GSD is going to keep your hands full comparison in getting a Show Line. They are the same breed, but different energy, with the Am. Staff, they go a step further and are a bit larger, but they have the same temperament as there long time relative the APBT. I hope you read the link, the part down where it has 3 photos next to each other of "pit bulls", the captions reads 
"*Three expressions of the same standard: (L) Overdone, (M) Underdone (R) Just right!"
*


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

But once again, you're stating that the am. staff is a showline apbt, when it is not. They are closely related, but it would be like saying that a labrador retriever and a flat coated retriever are the same breed. 

There are working and show apbts, and working and show am. staffs. 

Yes selzer, the specific dog of the op is a mix I believe.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

I generally say they are the same breed because:

All am staffs if you follow thier pedigree back go back to pit bulls, now the AKC people bred away from the dog aggression but never added any breeds thus I consider them the same breed just went different ways as far as wanting non dog aggressive dogs, and a different look which can be done with selective breeding over the years.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

It is the same way with the Jack Russell versus the Parson Russells terrier same dog different name. All Parsons are Jack russells but they just changed the name same thing here. THe JRTCA call them Jack Russells and the AKC is Parson Russell.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Is this done to confuse on purpose? So that way no matter what breed is involved in something negative there can be denials?!?! 

Like, oh, no that wasn't a German Shepherd, it was an Alsatian... but with more varieties! Wait, that's not a good example because it's the same breed...

I haven't read all the posts going back and forth but the number of them needed to explain is amazing. :O


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

cagirl said:


> I generally say they are the same breed because:
> 
> All am staffs if you follow thier pedigree back go back to pit bulls, now the AKC people bred away from the dog aggression but never added any breeds thus I consider them the same breed just went different ways as far as wanting non dog aggressive dogs, and a different look which can be done with selective breeding over the years.


haha I totally spaced on this, I was trying to find the legitamacy in the post of a show line APBT...I could not find one and I have been searching a long while. In fact if you do a blood test with a APBT you will get the AST because the blood is the same, yea the test is still in the works but other than a dog with hung papers you should get 100% AST because the blood lines originate from the same breed back before they started breeding the AST for show.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

i dunno. I mistaking called a jack russel terrier a parson russel terrier and got corrected big time.

My Dad had an English Setter, died at 15. He was a field dog, smaller than show dogs and out of llewelyn lines. Now they have a Llewelyn Setter. I talked about a month ago to an English Setter breeder. He told me his bitch was a Llewelyn, so I asked, oh they are Llewelyn Setters? And I was corrected there. Llewellyn can be registered English Setters, but to be registered Llewellyns, you have to do it through ancestry, kind of a dual registry.

Confused yet.

Kind of like Belgium Shepherds, Teverens and the Malinois. I guess that is dependent on the coat color and length. They used to be all registered the same but different varieties? Maybe still are? 

Dogs are confusing. Dog people cannot even get it straight. Breed owners cannot get it straight. We expect the public and legislature to get it straight though.


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

selzer said:


> i dunno. I mistaking called a jack russel terrier a parson russel terrier and got corrected big time.
> 
> My Dad had an English Setter, died at 15. He was a field dog, smaller than show dogs and out of llewelyn lines. Now they have a Llewelyn Setter. I talked about a month ago to an English Setter breeder. He told me his bitch was a Llewelyn, so I asked, oh they are Llewelyn Setters? And I was corrected there. Llewellyn can be registered English Setters, but to be registered Llewellyns, you have to do it through ancestry, kind of a dual registry.
> 
> ...


could not agree with you more (I was looking for a breed like the Liewelyn Setter before but could not think of any >.< so did not post about that kinda stuff I don't think)


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

selzer said:


> i dunno. I mistaking called a jack russel terrier a parson russel terrier and got corrected big time.
> 
> My Dad had an English Setter, died at 15. He was a field dog, smaller than show dogs and out of llewelyn lines. Now they have a Llewelyn Setter. I talked about a month ago to an English Setter breeder. He told me his bitch was a Llewelyn, so I asked, oh they are Llewelyn Setters? And I was corrected there. Llewellyn can be registered English Setters, but to be registered Llewellyns, you have to do it through ancestry, kind of a dual registry.
> 
> ...


For the same reason if u call a put bull an am staff one is a working breed one the alchemy registered ones don't care if they can work only if they are pretty.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

selzer said:


> Kind of like Belgium Shepherds, Teverens and the Malinois. I guess that is dependent on the coat color and length. They used to be all registered the same but different varieties? Maybe still are?


In most countries it's still one breed.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Interesting - can everyone see the link backs @ the bottom of the page?


----------



## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Interesting - can everyone see the link backs @ the bottom of the page?


what do you mean by this? like the pages before the one that it is on now, like 1>12 or whatever?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok call me blind, but no I don't see any linkbacks?????


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm gonna sound stupid, but gotta ask. What are "link backs" anyway????


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

Scroll all the way down and there are links to other forums one is a pit bull forum so I am guessing that is what the poster is referring too.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cagirl said:


> Scroll all the way down and there are links to other forums one is a pit bull forum so I am guessing that is what the poster is referring too.


No, only admin (not even the mods) can see the link backs that Jean is referring to. Someone who is also a member on another forum has posted a link to this thread so the members there (a pitbull forum) can read it and talk about us.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

oh lol ok sorry


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

It can make for some interesting reading to say the least.


----------



## adamdude04 (Apr 15, 2010)

Eh.. best situation, don't get in-between the dogs. You will get hurt.

I hold my dog (always on a leesh) and if another dog comes up and bites him, I am within distance to punch that dog in the head. If it gets out of control, a controlled shot to the head/heart area of the attacking dog to kill it.

I've thought about how easy it would be to carry a expandable baton..but between the knife, firearm, wallet, keys, cellphone, dog treats, water bottle (I drink about 15 bottles a day..)..I really don't want to have to carry an extra item but I'd rather knock a dog out than kill it.

Maybe this is an option you may consider being you live next door to a potential hazzard.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Elliehanna said:


> Ok this is a TON of Quoting, I got off last night and went to work today so this is my 1st time on today, EVERYTHING Cagirl said is TRUE
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry but thats not true. They were NOT bred to fight.Look it up! And I never once said I used wiki. I don't think I did. If so, please tell me where I did.


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

You know you can get dizzy going from this site to that site only to be linked back here.


----------



## apbt (Jul 6, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Sorry but thats not true. They were NOT bred to fight.Look it up! And I never once said I used wiki. I don't think I did. If so, please tell me where I did.


You are being ignorant! How many sites does Elliehanna have to link to make you understand that the American Pit Bull Terrier was bred to fight? You need to do some research before you go and state "facts" about a breed you don't know anything about.


----------



## cagirl (Apr 17, 2010)

I am only going to say it one more time that the American Pit bull terrier that we know today was bred to do battle, they are the K9 gladiator and any pit bull owner or lover that denies that shoudlnt own the breed, also wanted to state that Dog aggression and Human aggression are not the same thing but most know that.


----------



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> That is NOT what they were bred for or supposed to be bred for. They were originally bred and used for farm work, guarding the homestead, nannies, and compaionship. That is what they are supposed to be bred for and were originally bred for.


Eek! Did you really just say that?

The American Pit Bull Terrier was bred specifically for fighting. There was no APBT before dogfighting, and there wouldn't be one without it. The very name tells it all! 
American (As in America)
*Pit* (as in the fighting PIT) 
Bull (from the *Bull*dog blood used in them)
Terrier (For the terrier bred with the bulldog to create them, the terrier breed they used is now extinct)


They were used for farm work sometimes, because of their dexterity.. and the vast amount of things they can do. Everything from pulling carts to ratting to catching loose cattle. 

They were not bred for companionship. Dogs who are bred specifically for companions are those who were bred without a purpose BUT to be a companion.. and these dogs are anything but.

Dogmen bred out dogs who were aggressive to people or who redirected on a human in a fight. This created dogs who were simply amazing with people, and they were brought home with the family. 

Never, ever was the APBT bred for guarding! That completely defeats the purpose of breeding out human aggressive traits. They were called Nanny dogs because they were so amazing and trustworthy with kids. One of the Petey's from the Little Rascals was a game bred (fighting bred) dog.



The APBT, real ones, not American Bullies or American Staffs, today are still fought(it is legal in many countries), they are used in hunting that needs a dog to really catch and hold the game (such as Coyotes, Hogs, ect.), the ones who are show dogs (weight pulling, conformation, agility, ect.) are very selectively bred to keep bloodlines pure... 

To be honest, being bred for farm work, guarding, and whatnot sounds more like an American Bulldog. They also had their fighting days, but are farm dogs, they herd, they guard, ect.


----------



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No, only admin (not even the mods) can see the link backs that Jean is referring to. Someone who is also a member on another forum has posted a link to this thread so the members there (a pitbull forum) can read it and talk about us.


I think it was posted there because they are people who know and understand the breed that is being discussed here. And they could possibly help by posting what is being discussed here. 

It's like a Retriever forum having a big discussion on German Shepherds that is full of ignorance and misinformation, I would certainly bring it here and say "Hey, guys! Check this out, maybe help inform them." Not to talk about the people, but the dogs.


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

My GSD was charged by an off leash neighborhood dog when she was 9 years old. I did not have time to make it to my front door and get my dog inside.

The other dog came in halted, tail rigid stare down and then attacked my shepherd. Good thing she was long coat as I think it helped. The owner came "sauntering" down to get her dog as if there were no emergency. Her dog tried to bite her when she retrieved it.

Later the owner said that her dog was "dog aggressive"...why the h*** did she let him run off leash then?

I got my pup inside and saw blood so I checked her end to end. She was okay.....turns out that I had a bloody hand from the leash cutting into it during the fight.


----------



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

As a suggestion for the original topic, and to others in the same situation, get a gun or a very solid stick, like a baton and don't be afraid to use it.

I know you know that, Ellie... Btw, you do have a breakstick right? I forget.. But that can work to hit a dog on the head with lol


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I’m going to close this thread now and refer people to the following site where there is already another discussion in progress regarding this topic. This is where we feel the OP should have posted for help in the first place as that board is more geared toward the breed of dog she owns. 

Grrr sometimes people think they know EVERYTHING.... - General Dog Discussions

We appreciate that people love their dogs and wish thank those who have truly tried to help. We’d however like to remind everybody that this is a *GSD (German Shepherd Dog)* board whose purpose is to enjoy, educate and help people with GSDs. If you are really looking to gain knowledge and/or help regarding another breed of dog this is not the place, we’d encourage you seek out an appropriate place to find that knowledge.  

Thanks,
Vinnie
Admin.


----------

