# Venting Rant



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Why can't I have a peaceful walk with my dogs without running into owners with their off leash dogs and NO CONTROL over their off leash dogs?

I keep my dogs on leash, and I have control over them. My son and I took Fenna for a walk in the park. I kept her on leash and she is a well trained dog. She does not like other dogs, but she is under control at all times. 

We came across two gentleman with their smaller dogs. Their dogs were on leash and I told them that Fenna did not appreciate meeting other dogs. They thanked me for the heads up and they picked up their two little dogs (warning me that the Pom would bark as we passed by) and commented on how well Fenna heeled next to me as we passed them. If we had come across dogs that were too big to pick up like that, I know that I can step aside and put Fenna in a sit-stay and she will hold it until the cows come home.

We get to the bottom of the trail and what are we faced with? Two off leash Standard Poodle mixes with an owner about 100 yards behind them ON A BICYCLE. She sees us and stops her bike and calls her dogs. Neither dog even slowed down as they continued racing towards us. She is screaming at her dogs and chasing after them on her bike. I put Fenna in a sit-stay behind me and kept my body between her and the dogs (who were circling and bouncing around us). The woman never even apologized and turned around about 50 yards from us, racing away on her bike and yelling at her dogs that she was going home without them. They did eventually turn away and follow her. 

Half way through the park we turned a corner and came face to face with an Aussie and a Schipperke. The Schipperke was trailing a super long leash and the Aussie wasn't leashed at all. No owner in sight at all. The Schipperke immediately charged us. I once again put Fenna in a sit-stay and tried to stay between her and these other dogs (I don't think it is fair to have her in a sit-stay and have strange dogs run up on her...Fenna has her limits and that would be crossing one of them). Owner walks into sight and I ask her to call her dogs and leash them. She kind of throws her hands up in the air and shrugs at me. What the heck is that supposed to mean? She calls her dogs and, of course, both totally ignore her. She finally comes up and grabs both dogs and it turns out that the super long leash on the Schipperke was actually two leashes, one of which she snapped onto the Aussie's collar. No apology for totally crapping on the city leash laws. No apology for putting my dog at risk for a dog fight (not to mention putting her own dogs at risk). She marched off in a huff, giving ME dirty looks over her shoulder as she did it, too. 

This park welcomes responsible dog owners. They put up Mutt Mitt stations to make it easy and they post signage all over reminding people to A) Pick up after their dog, and B) Keep all dogs on leash. There is even a notice telling you were to go for off leash walks (okay, the off leash park is in a whole other city, but even still...what more could you ask for?). They all but hire a nanny to stand out there and remind people of the rules. This park is a 3 minute walk from my home. I go there a lot. I have never seen this level of irresponsibility before. To run into two separate idiots, one right after the other, was a little mind boggling to me.

If I had taken my dog to an off leash park and then complained about off leash dogs, I could see why the other owner would cop an attitude. But I was in a public park, where the rules clearly state that all dogs must be leashed, with my leashed dog that was under control at ALL TIMES. I shouldn't have to worry about controlling my dog AND their dogs, too. I wouldn't take my dogs into a public place without having control over them first. And if a fight had happened, who would have been blamed in the court of public opinion? The cute little Schipperke? No, probably not. It would have been my old Fenna, who deserves just as much as the next dog to take a walk without being molested. The big, bad German Shepherd Dog would have been seen as the aggressor, regardless of the actual situation where it was the cute little dog that charged my big dog. 

Okay, rant over. 
Sheilah


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

I so feel your pain!!


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

I do not like off leash dogs. I wouldnt mind if it is a special huge field that is for off leash like Casssidys mom goes to, came to mind, with the cows? but if its for dogs on leash that is what I would expect. I dont need any surprises with rescue boy Neek!!
This must be a nightmare for dog-dog aggressive owners!
I dont think Fenna should have to put up with it either. She seems very well behaved though


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Is there someone that regulates the park that you could call? Or the polices to start passing out tickets? I don't know... I'm sorry! Poor Fenna, she just wants to enjoy her walk. Kudos to you for training her so well, though.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I can't take credit for training her. She came to me as a tilted schH dog last summer. The only effort I have put into her in regards to obedience training is figuring out how to get her responsive without using a prong collar and a very hard hand. I have just kept working with her, on a flat collar and using nothing but praise, to get her to this point. She is actually enjoying it now, instead of crouching and waiting for a harsh correction. She followed every command before, but she flinched a lot and did it all at a half crouch.

We had a contract with the humane society in Boise to handle animal control here. But the city canceled the contract last year because the humane society was non-responsive to complaints that it took days for follow up and nobody returned voice mail. Leash law violations and nuisance complaints are supposed to go through the city manager's office now. I worked at the humane society for years (it did not end well, although I did get an apology last year for how poorly I was treated that last month or two), and I could have told the city that unless t.v cameras are involved, the humane society is dis-inclined to show up. 
Sheilah


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## Doggydog (May 12, 2009)

Maybe enough letter & phone complaints to the appropriate departments in your city may help. In my city the fine is $200 for having an unleashed dog for the first offense, and they are not joking around with that. I think it escalates to $2,000. by the 3rd time. I'm not sure cuz I don't know anyone who got that ticket more than once. ;-) 
And $250 for not cleaning up after your dog, although I don't think that one is enforced as well.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I feel your pain too! Went thru the exact same thing just this morning. There is this one guy that obviously thinks he is above the leash law and every time I see him and his weener dog, I ask him loud and clear "is your dog on a leash?" and every day he ignores me, and nearly ever time I see him I call the Park Services and complain. I get tired of people disrespecting the leash laws when I know full well that if something were to happen between my two big dogs and that guys little weener dog, my dogs and I would be the ones to pay!!


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## dit (Oct 25, 2009)

Wow, that is so wrong and irresponsible of those who aren't following the rules. It irks me to just read your posting, and I didn't even experience it.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Yep!

And guess who would be considered the 'bully,' if a fight did break out?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I too have been in this situation and it drives me nuts. It is the main reason I only walk one dog at a time now. My dogs are well behaved but it is hard for me to handle 2 dogs when it escalates past what I can reasonablly expect of them - like when the other dog is darting and and trying to bite. 

I wonder if carrying a little notebook and pen in your fanny pack to write down license plate numbers (if they drive to the park and you see them at a car) and a camera to snap pictures miht help. Send them to the city manager and maybe they will act. 

I know I am trying to keep my eyes on my dog and not take pictures or write stuff down too, so hard to do that unless you are still at a good distance. 

The sad thing with this is eventually they put parks off limits to dogs (happened whan I lived in Umatilla) and the responsible owner pays the price.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWIt is the main reason I only walk one dog at a time now. My dogs are well behaved but it is hard for me to handle 2 dogs when it escalates past what I can reasonablly expect of them - like when the other dog is darting and and trying to bite.


Exactly! I would save so much time if I could get all of my dogs walked at the same time. But I can't. I can reasonably do one at a time (or rope my husband into walking too, then we each have a dog).

I am calling city hall tomorrow. My husband has been thinking about running for a seat on the city council. Maybe I should push him to do it and his platform could be responsible dog ownership for the betterment of our city.

I like the idea of taking pictures. I am so frustrated at this point. Honestly. I wish you all could have seen that one woman just throw her hands up and freaking shrug at me. 

Idiots! We are surrounded by freaking idiots.
Sheilah


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stayIf I had taken my dog to an off leash park and then complained about off leash dogs, I could see why the other owner would cop an attitude. But I was in a public park, where the rules clearly state that all dogs must be leashed, with my leashed dog that was under control at ALL TIMES. I shouldn't have to worry about controlling my dog AND their dogs, too. I wouldn't take my dogs into a public place without having control over them first. And if a fight had happened, who would have been blamed in the court of public opinion? The cute little Schipperke? No, probably not. It would have been my old Fenna, who deserves just as much as the next dog to take a walk without being molested. The big, bad German Shepherd Dog would have been seen as the aggressor, regardless of the actual situation where it was the cute little dog that charged my big dog. Okay, rant over. Sheilah


Unfortunately, this isn't an isolated thing ... believe me you are *not *alone. I finally started noting addresses where loose dogs live when we walk and reporting them to the Police Dept which has helped. 

We have a neighbor kitty-korner to our back yard so they're facing the other street but there is one yard between mine and theirs which belongs to my next door neighbor. They have a very old choc lab who must be one of the most docile dogs on earth. One of those dogs that you'd think wouldn't hurt a fly. Originally there was a fence there, but two sections were open so he could get out ... and get out he would and wander over to our fence where if I didn't see him and let mine out ... mine would go nuts and he'd bark right back at them and so they were all in high gear. If he stayed in his yard Nissa would bark (alot!) but Riley would just stand (in guard mode) and watch him. This went on for months, I'd watch when I let mine out, but they woudln't so then they'd let theirs out and over he'd come. They were real good about calling him back and man does that dog ever behave when called, amazing boy! 

Anyway, one day the fence was gone and so the dog was free to wander wherever and he was constantly wandering over to our fence after mine were outside. I was so sick and tired of having to go get mine and shush them into the house etc when this could be avoided so easily by them. We DO have leash/confinement laws here that were blatantly being ignoreds by these people. One day I finally hollered over (hollered because I had to get my voice out over the barking) "would you PLEASE keep your dog on your yard, put up a fence, get a rope, whatever but please keep him on his own yard." Which immediately triggered vulgarities to spew from the owner's mouth who was standing in his doorway. That was IT ... I went in the house and called the Police. Next day he's tied up and has been ever since when he's outside.

You're absolutely right when .... the dog & family that's going to pay the price are the GSD and family no matter what the little dog does, that's what happened.

I can't totally relax and enjoy a walk with them because I have to constantly be on guard for loose dogs and rampant children who like to appear out of nowhere and charge up to hug my dogs. It's also a bummer to seem someone ahead walking in your direction and they cross the street to avoid meeting up w/us because they're afraid of my furkids. I really do like it that people will avoid rather than walk past in fear mode which as we all know would invite trouble, but it's depressing that so MANY people are afraid just because they're GSD's.

We stopped doing dog parks probably a year and a half ago. There were just to many people who can't read or obey rules and they'd bring in their charging, snarling little yappers who'd get into the faces of the bigger dogs and when you say something the owner's get their undies in a bunch even though there's a big dog and little dog area completely separate from one another. It's just not a safe place to be so we don't go there. It's hard because Riley used to love going there and Nissa learned to like and interact some with other dogs at the dog park. But the bad outweighs the good when it comes to safety so we don't go.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I wouldn't be caught dead in a dog park at this point. I love to take my dogs to the open range, out in the middle of nowhere, and let them off leash. I find it a wonderful place to go because there is nobody there. 

I stay away from dog parks for all the reasons that have been listed in different threads here over the years. I guess that is why I was so outraged yesterday. I specifically choose to stay away from dog parks and yet I still have to deal with the problems of being at a dog park. 

I'll let you all know what happens at city hall today.
Sheilah


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

Ugh that's frustrating to just read! Why can't people just heed the signs or if they're gonna break the rules AT LEAST be courteous and leash when others are near!

I understand how you feel, that used to happen to us all the time. And it's always the people with the dog that doesn't listen or people who will act like it's you, the one with the behaving leashed dog(s), who is at fault.

I once ended up getting shouted at by a lady who had her boxer off-leash in a leash area and it charged us. My dogs were on leash, her dog charged up with bad intentions(first aggressive boxer I've seen!) my two were on edge and it had started with Cheyenne once already so I kicked the dog hard and it ran off. Not hard enough to injure it, just a kick in the side to stun it. The lady came up and shouted that I shouldn't have kicked her dog, it was animal abuse, that she would call the police. I told her that they'd probably be happy to give her an off-leash ticket and impound her aggressive dog! She stormed off but I was still furious. I don't make anyone have to put up with my dogs, I don't want to have to put up with other peoples'. It's really not that hard.

Now that I've stopped walking in my neighborhood and city/public parks(with a select few exceptions) and instead go into rural hiking areas I've only once or twice run into people like this. Most dog owners I run into on the hiking trails are much better about controlling their dogs/being respectful.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

I fully agree with the issue of the big bad GSD getting all the blame and then some, if something were to happen. I completely get your frustration. Even more frustrating is when you have relatives who have that mentality and they think they know more about dogs than you do, as in my case. My FIL plays ball with my BIL's labradoodle in their unfenced yard and he throws the ball in the direction of the T intersection of 2 streets. So smart! Dog regularly runs out onto the street, has charged at people on one occasion that I know of (dog was being walked unleashed and didn't come when called). I cannot stand clueless owners who think this way.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have the same sorts of problems with supposedly dog savvy people! Last night I took Nikon to conformation practice and as soon as we came in, the instructor (who was in our puppy class with her puppy) got her dog out of the crate and basically lead it right up to Nikon's face saying "oooooo, look remember him from your puppy class?" I'm like hello, he's going to eat your dog for dinner if you purposely move it another inch into his face! 

We've encountered so many off leash dogs on walks I don't even care anymore. If I have to kick one away, I will.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I kicked at the Schipperke twice yesterday. Perhaps I should have explained to the brain dead owner that any kick I might connect with would do FAR less damage to her little dog than Fenna getting it would do. 
Sheilah


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Ya know, Schipperke breeders (good ones) stress to people that the dogs should never be off lead and that you should be very careful with them (males especially) around other dogs because they are pushy. I have a Schip mix and am very careful to keep him under control at all times. He's pleasant, jaunty, and fun, but if an off lead dog were to run up to him, it wouldn't be our best day I am sure. I would NEVER let him off lead. It would be a disaster. She shouldn't have that dog.







They certainly don't see their size as a deficit.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

This is my biggest fear with Athena.So far I haven't encountered an off lead dog on our walks but it is bound to happen sooner than later.I do encounter lots of owners using the darn flexi leads that are unaware of there dog or surrounding and at the last minute they have reel the dog in or dodge each other.My trainer gets so ticked off when this happens on our outing/training days.Plus sometimes it's hard to tell if the dog is on or off lead so your guessing.
Hopefully you can get the problems fixed on your town.If you have specific off lead places there are no excuses for the on lead places.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANYa know, Schipperke breeders (good ones) stress to people that the dogs should never be off lead and that you should be very careful with them (males especially) around other dogs because they are pushy. I have a Schip mix and am very careful to keep him under control at all times. He's pleasant, jaunty, and fun, but if an off lead dog were to run up to him, it wouldn't be our best day I am sure. I would NEVER let him off lead. It would be a disaster. She shouldn't have that dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember a long ago trip to the dog park (when we used to go). Riley was like maybe 10mos ??? He trotted off into some trees, there were other people on the other side of them. I went after him to keep an eye on him. Just as I came out the other side of the trees this Schipperke jumped and grabbed Riley at the neck and it was no love bite either, he was out for blood. Owner was the same woman who a few weeks before had hollered at me to "please keep your dog under control" because Riley had run over to join the group of dogs that was walking w/her. He hadn't done anything, was just there hangin' out with that pack.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

When Dante was young (8 months to a year) I was walking him in a local park on a 6 ft leash.

We were walking down a trail when he suddenly "puppy barked" and low and behold around the corner came a Golden Retreiver puppy (5-6 months) without an owner in sight (yet). Dante puppy barked again and then play bowed to the puppy just as the owner turned the corner. By this time I was beside Dante and had the leash not tight but he only had a bit of extra loose leash. 

Her: Get that vicious dog under control

Me: He's on leash and trying to engage your puppy in play. Perhaps you should keep your puppy on leash as the next dog might not be as kind as mine.

Her: mumbling something I couldn't quite understand but I heard a few words that get







here.

Couple of things really got to me on this one. A) She couldn't see that Dante was in play mode, bowing and not a hackle in sight B) She was walking a young pup in a park off leash that has a leash law in force. Both made me wonder about the future of the puppy.

I have friends that walk their dogs there all the time off leash and complain when they get a ticket. I've reminded them several times that just because their dogs are good with others that the others might not be and if theirs approach an onleash dog and a scuffle ensues that it'll be their dogs at fault. It bounces off their ears I think.









Sorry you had a crappy day at the park Sheilah!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh Barb...you all are so much nicer than me. I would have been in a brawl. *L*


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I just came back from a walk and have a pleasant story about off leash dogs.

I was in the school yard/park practicing come exercises with Dakota on a long lead. A fellow came into the park with his dog, and was practicing come exercises with his dog off leash. The dog didn't even look at Dakota nor did it make any attempt to come over. I was impressed.

Dog number two was a beautiful springer spaniel, off leash, and a 7 month collie puppy, on leash. Her springer was very well behaved , came over to Dakota slowly, had a little 2 second sniff and left.

Off leash dogs like these do not bother me. I only look at them in admiration hoping that Dakota will be there one day.

Unfortunately I have other stories of off leash and even on leash dogs that are not so nice.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Yeah, I hear that a lot as a strange, off leash dog is charging for us..."Its okay, my dog is great with other dogs"! Good for your dog, who is now going to get eaten alive by my dog, who isn't good with other dogs.

Very frustrating. I went to city hall yesterday and signed a complaint about the off leash dogs in the park. According to the city clerk, that is the first step in the process. I haven't been back to the park yet, so we'll see what happens.
Sheilah


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## Technostorm (May 24, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your dilema. I too have been frustrated with careless owners. So, I decided to teach my dog to become agressive upon command. He's only 6 months old mind you.. but if I go into a panic mode, he'll stand guard and become agressively in somewhat of a protection mode. 

One time, a couple of neighbors let their poodles loose and they started charging towards my dog. I had him in sit, stay. I yelled at the owner to leash their dogs but was met with "no, its ok, they're friendly and just wants to play.. " So, I let out command of "Achtung", which my dog learned to stand and growl, then I ask the owers if they want me to release my GSD? I "THINK" my dogs wants to play as well.. needless to say, my boy pounced on one of the little ones, and sent that poodle fearfully crying and running back to the owner. The other dog follows, so I walked up to the owner and said "If you ever disrepect me or my dog again, I'll unleash my dog on yours and I'll be on you as well!" !##$%#$% The owner turned paled.

Sorry, I had to be an







..


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

You should complain, and ask that they start patrolling the area. Cities should not have by-laws that they are not willing to enforce. 
I believe most cities react on a complaint basis. If no one complains then they assume that there is not a probelm.

I used to complain all the time about cars not stopping at the stop sign especially when I was walking my children to school. It took a few phone calls before they had a patrol car there ticketing the offenders. Now that my kids are grown and I walk there occasionaly I can see that the stop sign is still just a slow down sign.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KathyWIt is the main reason I only walk one dog at a time now. My dogs are well behaved but it is hard for me to handle 2 dogs when it escalates past what I can reasonablly expect of them - like when the other dog is darting and and trying to bite.
> ...


Suggest they send a cop out one day a week to write tickets, people don't care to follow laws that are not enforced.

Personally, a city isn't going to do anything to me or my dog if she is leashed and gets into a fight with an unleashed dog that runs up when a leash law is in effect.

Or you could just be nasty about it, and hit any unleashed dog that comes near with bear pepper spray. I wouldn't, but unleashed dogs aren't a problem where I live, nor do I have a problem with them if they are. Or something that smelled so bad the owner would have to bathe them to get rid of.

I doubt you would be in any trouble telling the city an illegally loose dog ran up aggressively, and you used what non lethal means you needed to use to prevent bloodshed. And an owner would likely be fined for leash law violation even trying to pursue it and a little more attentive of leash laws afterward.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:We've encountered so many off leash dogs on walks I don't even care anymore.


Oh I hear you. I want to keep my dogs safe but I'm so used to loose dogs charging up that it's almost second nature to us to do what it takes to keep them away and continue on with our walk.

I've had so many people with small dogs agressively bark and charge at me and my well behaved dogs yet the owners are mad at me. I don't understand that logic. I should be more fearful of their dogs then them of mine. 

When I'm at the local park down the street I sometimes throw the ball for Cody and Isa. If I see other people, I leash them and do some obedience until they pass and then go back to throwing the ball once they leave. I've had a lot of people tell me how amazed they are about how good my dogs' obedience are.

That is what people need to do, leash there dog(s) when they see other people aproaching at least, it's common sense... It's not that hard. But I guess it is for some people.

I'm sorry something like this happens and like everyone else has been saying, you're not alone!


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

Same problem, different city.

We have a great path next to the wash about 1/2 mile from my house. The dog catchers drive up & sit in their cars. There could be a pack of dogs 200 yards away, but they can't see them from their cars. What's up with that? Maybe I need to say something.

I like to run with Zack, but he gets all skitzy when he sees an off leash dog charging us. It's dangerous for me. I've tripped over him a few times. I can't blame him though - he's just trying to protect his Mom. 

Of course, I've yelled at the owners and they don't care. I really hate to change my running path because I don't have to deal with cars, exhaust fumes, etc. It's quite nice in the early morning, except for the idiot dog owners. Sigh.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stayI kicked at the Schipperke twice yesterday. Perhaps I should have explained to the brain dead owner that any kick I might connect with would do FAR less damage to her little dog than Fenna getting it would do.
> Sheilah


Thats kinda mean to kick someones dog, unless a fight broke out.
I would be FURIOUS if someone kicked my dog, or tried to.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How would you feel if the other dog bit your dog? 

I would certainly kick another dog if it attacked my dog esp. if it were free and mine was on a leash. In one place we lived for a while, I used to carry a small wooden club just in case when after our 4 mo GSD puppy was jumped a couple of times by dogs from the neighborhood while we were out walking. Came in very handy a couple of times.

(Of course with Baron I would be very hard pressed to get in front of my dog if it came to that!)


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: codmasterHow would you feel if the other dog bit your dog?
> 
> I would certainly kick another dog if it attacked my dog esp. if it were free and mine was on a leash. In one place we lived for a while, I used to carry a small wooden club just in case when after our 4 mo GSD puppy was jumped a couple of times by dogs from the neighborhood while we were out walking. Came in very handy a couple of times.
> 
> (Of course with Baron I would be very hard pressed to get in front of my dog if it came to that!)



"Thats kinda mean to kick someones dog, unless a fight broke out."

So.........maybe you should read my post a bit better?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: TxRider
> 
> 
> Or you could just be nasty about it, and hit any unleashed dog that comes near with bear pepper spray.



what the heck is wrong with you?
why would you just spray random dogs with BEAR PEPPER SPRAY?
I would do something like that if there was a fight....not if some dog starting comming towards me. I am VERY surprised I am hearing this!!!


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Thats kinda mean to kick someones dog, unless a fight broke out.
> I would be FURIOUS if someone kicked my dog, or tried to.


I have no problem kicking a loose dog away before a fight breaks out. In my opinion, I'd be protecting both my dog AND that dog. Cheyenne my girl is good with some dogs and not good with others, but doesn't typically fight, especially not off leash. However, when on leash she has a 'Get them before they get me' mentality from being attacked(by a loose dog, go figure...) so if she's on leash and another dog runs up in her space unless it's a puppy or has very loose/playful body language I can almost guarantee within five seconds she will flip out and try to get it.

Am I wrong to kick a loose dog, doing no real damage to it, before this happens? I've put SO much work into trying to eliminate this behavior from her, why should I risk a dog ruining all the progress that has been made with a possibly bad encounter?

A shep could likely kill a Schipperke without too much effort, and regardless of the fact the shep was leashed and the Schipperke was not, in a lot of areas this would still earn the shep an aggressive label. I could see a kick being both to protect the Schipperke from injury and the shep and shep owner from legal trouble. 

At the opposite end, if Cheyenne was running loose and ran up to a leashed dog I wouldn't throw a fit if the owner of that dog kicked her, as long as it was reasonable(not beating her, kicking repeatedly, in the face or kicking unreasonably hard, as to injure). Would I be mad? Yeah, but more at myself for letting that happen than anything else.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

What if the dog gets mad at you? And bites you bc you kicked it?
Well, Im just saying I wouldnt do it, unless there was an actual threat.
Would your dog kill or possibly maime a dog that badly?


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RWhat if the dog gets mad at you? And bites you bc you kicked it?
> Well, Im just saying I wouldnt do it, unless there was an actual threat.
> Would your dog kill or possibly maime a dog that badly?


I'm willing to accept the risk of being bitten in order to protect my dog. Most likely a dog kicked, if it bit at all, would bite once and back off in a fear/startled response. If it actually attacked me, well, I think that's a problem with the dog.

I don't know how badly she would injure another dog. I don't want to find out and there is no need to find out. In training we have gotten to the point where I can walk her on leash within a few feet of a dog(on leash and held back by it's owner) acting aggressively toward her without her reacting at all. However, with a loose, uncontrolled dog getting in her face all bets would be off. And what do you mean by "that badly"? Any attack is too much, even if my dog won't kill or seriously injure another dog I don't see the point in letting even a 'minor' fight to occur.

I never walk my dogs in my own neighborhood because people have no respect and let their dogs run all over plus there's a feral dog who seems to be on the edge of dying(very old) and has become much more bold. I take my dogs out and hike off leash with them and we rarely if ever have issues, as a result my dogs have had many more positive experiences and more appropriate training opportunities.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm pretty lucky, I live in an area where there are lots of choices to walk our dogs onleash and offleash. Tho I never do offleash if I know I'm going to run into someone /dog.

I guess what really peeves me, is the state park I go to, has a leash order, yet there are loads of people who walk their dogs offleash. The 'good'thing is, the road used, you can see what's coming from quite a distance.

So far, and again I've been lucky, if I see someone coming offleash, I will stop and yell "Please put your dog on leash"..

Maybe it's the way Masi "looks" but I haven't gotten any gruff from anyone so far tho they don't seem to pleased about doing it)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and forgot to add, I have NO problem protecting my dog with whatever means necessary if I have some charging idiot coming our way,,,I, too, have worked hard, to ensure Masi isn't put in a position of having to defend herself from a dog whether it's friendly or not)


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Ive only come into contact with one weirdo looking dog.
It looked like it had rabies...I saw it from kinda far away bu noticed it was walking funny...no collar etc. 
I have never ran SO fast with my dog in my entire life.
I made it to my car and the dog caught up soon after and just stood in front of my car staring at me. Kilo was FREAKING out.
It looked like someone hit the dog, with like a car or something. It was drooling like crazy.
I drove a bit down the road so I could get service on my cell.
I called animal control.
I guess the dog has a tumor and its fairly friendly...it always excapes from its house.
In THAT case... I woulnt even attempt to kick it.
I looked like it was going to kill me.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: codmasterHow would you feel if the other dog bit your dog?
> ...


I would kick someone elses dog to prevent a fight from breaking out (and I have done so). I DON'T want my dogs fighting. I DON'T want them attacked. I DO protect my dogs. 

I kicked a Chihuahua that was going after Kayos, it grabbed my pants too, a cop did not even stop to help and the owner had the gall to tell me she could not get her dog becasue she was afraid of mine, who was doing nothing BECAUSE I stepped in. The cop had the nerve to tell me I was not nice. I told him to mind his own bsuiness or enforce the leash law-his choice.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Thats kinda mean to kick someones dog, unless a fight broke out.
> I would be FURIOUS if someone kicked my dog, or tried to.


Do you have ANY idea how much damage my dog could have done to the much smaller dog? Why would you be "furious" if someone had to protect their dog from your dog due to YOUR stupidity? 

If you think I was just randomly walking around kicking at strange dogs, maybe you better go back and read MY post. Honestly, do you spend any time at all understanding a topic before you reply? I was walking my leashed dog, in a park that states clearly that all dogs must be leashed. I was charged by an OFF LEASH dog and I stepped forward and kicked at the dog to A) keep it off my dog (who does not like other animals and would have tired to KILL the other dog) and B) to keep the situation from escalating into an all out dog fight between the TWO unleashed dogs and my LEASHED dog. 

Explain to me again how you could be furious if it was your dog that was off leash and aggressively charging leashed dogs? How do you figure that you would have the right to be anything but WRONG in the situation?
Sheilah


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


BTW, a club is MUCH better if you have to fight with a dog who is attacking either you or your dog than kicking! You can get bit pretty bad if you kick, and esp. if you miss. But a short wooden club is very effective!


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I've used a chuck-it to block off a charging dog. Don't know what I would have done if the dog didn't back down. The owner was offended that I blocked his dog's approach. We really would have got into it if the chuck-it actually touched his dog. Unfortunately I was with my friend who always allows her sheltie to be off leash, so I decided not to lecture him about leash laws.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: codmaster
> BTW, a club is MUCH better if you have to fight with a dog who is attacking either you or your dog than kicking! You can get bit pretty bad if you kick, and esp. if you miss. But a short wooden club is very effective!


You know, now that you mention it, I do have a walking stick that some friends gave me a few years ago. I always said I wanted to be an old hermit lady living up in the mountains, wearing a leather hat like Crocodile Dundee and carrying a tall, strong walking stick and hiking all over with my pack of dogs. I did temperament testing at the the humane society with these two women and every time I tested a really cool dog I would comment that this was the type of dog I would want for my dog pack when I go to live in the mountains. 

So they were at a craft fair and saw the exact kind of walking stick they thought I should carry when I go to live like a hermit in the mountains with my dog pack. And they got it for me. 

I could start taking that walking stick with me when I walk my dogs! And waving the stick to keep a charging dog back would beat the indignity of falling on my butt the first time I kicked out at a dog just a little too hard. This could work...this could really work.
Sheilah


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stayDo you have ANY idea how much damage my dog could have done to the much smaller dog? Why would you be "furious" if someone had to protect their dog from your dog due to YOUR stupidity?
> 
> If you think I was just randomly walking around kicking at strange dogs, maybe you better go back and read MY post. Honestly, do you spend any time at all understanding a topic before you reply? I was walking my leashed dog, in a park that states clearly that all dogs must be leashed. I was charged by an OFF LEASH dog and I stepped forward and kicked at the dog to A) keep it off my dog (who does not like other animals and would have tired to KILL the other dog) and B) to keep the situation from escalating into an all out dog fight between the TWO unleashed dogs and my LEASHED dog.
> 
> ...


Well said Sheilah







and







up


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> Why would you be "furious" if someone had to protect their dog from your dog due to YOUR stupidity?


My dog isnt vicious number 1. Number 2, we dont have leash laws in parks. SO.
Geeze.
Im just saying its kinda weird talking about hitting dogs with clubs etc,
but whatever. to each his own.
Your dog would KILL another dog?
Even if the other dog was friendly?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Rayden hates being approached by dogs when he is on leash. kill one? I don't know, but little yappy dogs could get seriously hurt very easily.

that said, I do carry a big stick when I go walking. Actually, I carry an ASP. We've been attacked many times by off-leash dogs. In the county, we have no leash law, so people assume it's ok to let their dogs run wild. Once, a doberman actually jumped at my face. Rayden ripped her shoulder open and would have chased her down if he didn't have a good recall. I fell and dropped his leash when the dog jumped at me.

I don't go around smacking dogs with sticks, obviously. I have Rayden sit and get between him and the dog. I yell and try to scare it off. If it still comes on, yup I will smack the crap out of it.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DainerraRayden hates being approached by dogs when he is on leash. kill one? I don't know, but little yappy dogs could get seriously hurt very easily.
> 
> that said, I do carry a big stick when I go walking. Actually, I carry an ASP. We've been attacked many times by off-leash dogs. In the county, we have no leash law, so people assume it's ok to let their dogs run wild. Once, a doberman actually jumped at my face. Rayden ripped her shoulder open and would have chased her down if he didn't have a good recall. I fell and dropped his leash when the dog jumped at me.
> 
> I don't go around smacking dogs with sticks, obviously. I have Rayden sit and get between him and the dog. I yell and try to scare it off. If it still comes on, yup I will smack the crap out of it.


That wasnt directed towards you.
But yes, I get what you are saying.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I know youre post wasnt directly to me, but lots of us do carry sticks and for the same reason that I stated. 
if I say "get" and the dog still approaches, it will get whacked.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: TxRider
> ...


Not random dogs, illegal loose dogs that run at my dog.

What's better, repel the dog non lethally, or watch your big dog kill it with a single bite?

My girl gets aggressive little loose dogs attacking her now and then. I know she won't bite back, so I just stand there, often blocking traffic, with a little dog darting in and out biting until the owners can chase them down and grab them.

If she were a dog that bit back when bitten, they would likely be dead little dogs. One lives right across the street and down a couple of houses and has done this several times. Hope has been bitten by this dog, as well as a miniature dachshund down the street that was aggressive, slipped it's collar and chased after us and bit her face.

I couldn't kick a dog like that, it might kill it, it would be far more dangerous to the dog than some spray that wears off in a bit.

Fortunately I don't have to make that choice, Hope doesn't respond in kind to it. But not all big dogs are so generous.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: TxRider
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


I dont know...maybe its just me.
Im sorry for being like snobby....but seems a bit inhumane.
I mean people are talking about kicking dogs that are 2 pounds.
My dog would NEVER harm a smaller dog. My gf has a mini pin, and it bites the [heck] out of Kilo...he doesnt even care, he growls at her or just walks away.
Sorry to sound like rude....maybe I havent ran into a mean dog yet where Ive had to use physical force to get it away from me.
And you know...sounds a bit worse than peppr spraying it, but maybe if the dog gets a little nip from your bigger dog...the smaller one will understand....maybe I am being naive.
But Kilo ALWAYS tries to lick females buttholes (SORRY) and he gets nipped right in the face by (ALOT, 9/10) of them....and they dont hurt him....but after that bite he wont do it to her again.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> ...


Okay, Angel R, I will try and answer the question you posed to me.

My dog is not vicious at all. She hates other animals and does not appreciate having them approach her. She will ignore another dog unless it invades her space. An off leash dog, aggressively charging her is at risk of invading her space. If the owner has no control over their off leash dog, then it is up to me to protect my dog from being injured OR from my dog injuring the off leash dog. 

Yes, my dog would try to kill another dog if it invaded her space. A dog aggressively charging her would not be approaching as a "friendly" dog. Not that it would matter much, since I believe that my dog would have a problem with ANY dog invading her space for ANY reason. Which is why it is my responsibility to keep her under my control at all times. She is an old dog, but still big and serious. A small dog would be toast, but another big dog could easily kill my old dog. Do you see where I am trying to go with this? A dog fight could have fatal consequences, so it is the RIGHT and RESPONSIBLE thing to try and not have that happen.

I am sending you a PM because I don't want the other part of what I have to say to be construed as a personal attack. 
Sheilah


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'd rather intimidate a loose dog into running in the other direction and have mostly been lucky my whole life in being able to do just that.

The most effective method I've found is yelling really loud 'COME GET YOUR DOG! I AM NOT GONNA PAY YOUR VET BILLS'

Still, I wouldn't hesitate to kick some loose dog in the head for biting my dog. Kill them, no I wouldn't want to do that, knock them unconscious, yep. 

What would Morgan do? I don't want to know. She has a look about her and most other dogs respect her alpha status. I've seen what she's done to skunks, possums and unfortunately a few cats. If she can catch it, it's done so yes I'd rather kick someone's dog, smack them with a club than have to say I'm sorry that Morgan snapped it's neck or back.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


Im just asking....dont take it as being rude.
I am just being curious........annoying? yes
too many questions? yes
Sorry, thats me


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Since I am a fear aggressive dog owner I'll put my 2 cents in too. If I should ever meet up with an off leash dog and it is coming at Athena I WILL BE doing my best to keep that dog away from her.I will kick the dog or beat it with a stick if I have to.I treat her as my kid and I would do the same if it was them being aggravated or threatened by a dog.

IF there is a leash law it should be observed.If there is no leash law, common sense should be used and unless you have a fully controllable dog it shouldn't be off leash...I can almost guarantee Athena will come if called but I am not willing to chance it outside my yard.She is too important to me to chance it.

This topic really ticks me off because unless you have dealt with a dog like some of us have you have no idea what it's like to take them out.And don't anyone start blaming us owners for the way our dogs are.I never thought much about dogs greeting until I got Athena.I now don't let Lexi meet and greet strange dogs because you just never know and why put the owner through that.A woman ticked me off at Petsmart last week.She could see Athena did not like her dog and instead if keeping her dog by her side she let him go to the end of his leash and get with in 2 ft of her.

That's my thoughts on this...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Sorry to sound like rude....maybe I havent ran into a mean dog yet


Sorry to sound, like, annoyed...but maybe you just haven't been around enough dogs or don't know enough about dogs to know what you're seeing when you see it.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGShe could see Athena did not like her dog and instead if keeping her dog by her side she let him go to the end of his leash and get with in 2 ft of her.


Exactly! How many times have you had your reactive dog's space invaded by some clueless owner who responds to your concern by promising that THEIR dog gets along with everyone. Okay! Good for them. What about YOUR dog, though? 
Sheilah


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

OK! My God. Im just wondering.
Forget I said anything!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AllieGShe could see Athena did not like her dog and instead if keeping her dog by her side she let him go to the end of his leash and get with in 2 ft of her.
> ...


Too many times.You know you were right to be ticked when the cashier even makes a comment that some people shouldn't own dogs..


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stayExactly! How many times have you had your reactive dog's space invaded by some clueless owner who responds to your concern by promising that THEIR dog gets along with everyone. Okay! Good for them. What about YOUR dog, though?
> Sheilah


that's when you've got to start thinking about a solid HUMAN RECALL line to let someone know quickly and in no uncertain terms to come get their dog.

I never thought much about it until I had Morgan. She was a scared sweet little girl who'd lived on the streets as a wee baby. 

Luther would ALWAYS protect her.

More than once, I had an owner of a loose dog come running for their dog screaming 'NOOOOO Get him off get him off!' when Luther had their dog pinned to the sidewalk by the throat. Luther never hurt another dog doing this, just made a lot of noise but he was a big strapping DDR boy with the moves to flip another dog upside down and pin them before I could even say no.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...



Your very mean. You dont know anything about me.
It was just a few questions.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I don't see anything mean about that - re-read what she said



> Quote:but maybe you just haven't


we only know we read here about you. which seems to be every time someone calls you on one of your posts, you argue then when you don't win, we're mean or rude.

if Sheilah had said
'little girl you don't know what you're talking about', now that would have been rude.

Rudeness police out.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Angel I'm sorry you find some of our "tactics" as inhumane. That is not the point. Our dogs are our responsibility, we are going to protect them from harm.

I guess I would ask you this,,,you have a friendly dog who is not dog aggressive, he is on leash, you are being charged by a dog who is NOT friendly and means business, size doesn't matter, what are you going to do? Are you going to protect your dog to the best of your ability? If, yes, you would be doing exactly what we are talking about.))


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Thanks for being polite about it


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> that's when you've got to start thinking about a solid HUMAN RECALL line to let someone know quickly and in no uncertain terms to come get their dog.


 I agree. My recall line from 'excuse me, please get your dog because blah blah' evolved to edited.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> ...










I'll have to practice that one..I like short and sweet.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> Your very mean. You dont know anything about me.
> *It was just a few questions*.


No, they were insinuations. Anyone who would kick a CHARGING dog to protect their own were "mean". If you dog wont allow a small dog to CHARGE it, then its vicious. Bear spray is cruel ect. At least thats how I took your posts. As an insult to me and to everyone else who has a RIGHT to defend themselves and their dogs.

I would do everything in my power to avoid a fight. Why should MY dog have to bear scars (both physically and emotionally) from a fight due to someone else's stupidity? Or if my dog charged another dog I would expect the owner to defend their dogs as well.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07I agree. My recall line from 'excuse me, please get your dog because blah blah' evolved to edit It works.


Not only would it make them (perhaps) come and get their dog...but I bet it would even cause them to leash up and leave the area the NEXT time they saw me coming if I used that line. I like this idea!
Sheilah


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

My dog "charges" but means no harm. He barks and makes A HUGE deal if he sees some other dog.
He is the most friendly dog ever.
He would run right up to you and give you and your dog kisses.
I know you would be scared if you saw a 95 pound dog charging you...but if his tail is wagging.......
And pepper spray/clubs/kicking is horrible. Esp if the dog is under 30 pounds.
That could seriously hurt a lap dog.
But again.
Seems as though its cool to gang up on people if they share a different point of veiw.
Again. Sorry if my questions were offensive............
Its all good


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

But Angel,if he did that to my dog could you call him off??Athena would NOT like that whether he was friendly or not and the barking would give Athena mixed signals.My dog can not handle a dog charging her never mind barking at her.She takes that as a threat and just knowing my dog I would have to protect her and fend off the animal.
We have been working hard since Spring and have come a long way but we still have a long way to go to get her to trust that I will protect her.I can at least get her to sit now instead of standing up to the other threat.
You also have to remember is all it might take is one bad encounter and you could be in the same boat as some of us with fear aggressive dogs..


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes yes. I could call him and he would come.
I seriously did not mean to be jerk in my posts.....
Im not like making fun of anyones dogs....I just felt those ways were not very nice.
It really doesnt matter tho.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RMy dog "charges" but means no harm. He barks and makes A HUGE deal if he sees some other dog.
> He is the most friendly dog ever.
> He would run right up to you and give you and your dog kisses.
> I know you would be scared if you saw a 95 pound dog charging you...but if his tail is wagging.......
> ...


Tell me that when I had to pull a huge pit bull type dog off my old 40lb dog with my bare hands... It works both ways. Luckily I got it off and kicked it hard enough to keep it away, but I'm a big 6'4" guy. I might well have killed her.

With Hope I would be more worried about her killing a little dog.

I don't intend to be mean, just answering the question reasonably.

Police use spray for a good reason, it causes no permanent harm. No ripped off ears, torn open wounds, no vet bills. If it will save a dogs life, or prevent permanent injury, it's the lesser of evils.

You said spray a random dog, it's not random, it's a dog illegally loose, and more specifically a dog about to likely cause injury or sustain injury.

If the owner gets a little on him bathing the dog and rinsing it off, maybe they will think twice respect the leash law or train their dog better before next time. Or before losing a dog or letting theirs injure someone elses dog.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Angel-this is a sincere reply--You have a great deal to learn from knowledgeable members of this board.If your LOOSE (mean no harm dog by your interpretation) ran up and jumped on me I would be unable to keep my dog from reacting,his reaction would be to show dominance toward your dog-and make him back off.depending on how the dog interaction and owner interaction moved forward two dogs could be seriously hurt.I absolutely HATE a dog owner who thinks their dog is TOTALLY FRIENDLY and abuses other owners by having a loose dog.By the way if you live in my state I don't know of ANY state parks OR city parks that don't have leash laws.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogAngel-this is a sincere reply--You have a great deal to learn from knowledgeable members of this board.If your LOOSE (mean no harm dog by your interpretation) ran up and jumped on me I would be unable to keep my dog from reacting,his reaction would be to show dominance toward your dog-and make him back off.depending on how the dog interaction and owner interaction moved forward two dogs could be seriously hurt.I absolutely HATE a dog owner who thinks their dog is TOTALLY FRIENDLY and abuses other owners by having a loose dog.By the way if you live in my state I don't know of ANY state parks OR city parks that don't have leash laws.


I go to a baseball field.
Alot of dogs are allowed to be off leash.
I do not go to dog parks or state parks.
I do understand what you are saying


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RMy dog "charges" but means no harm. He barks and makes A HUGE deal if he sees some other dog.
> He is the most friendly dog ever.
> He would run right up to you and give you and your dog kisses.
> I know you would be scared if you saw a 95 pound dog charging you*...but if his tail is wagging.......*
> ...


I know its a tiny detail but did you know that a "tail wag" has multiple meanings? It could very well be a sign of agression. 

I can tell if a dog is just trying to play, but if I have to question its motives I rather be safe than sorry.

Another thing, like many have stated before, how do you know if the OTHER dog is friendly? 

No one is ganging up on you. I was simply making you aware of how your posts came off (at least to me).


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sheilah, I have tried everything, I tried being nice, and polite, and educating people... It was always so frustrating especially that I was working with Yana whose fear reaction was off charts. I also have other things to do other then to accommodate every 'oh he's so friendly' stray that charges us. In addition I have Animal Control and the police department on a speed dial, just in case, and I don't hesitate to place a call.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

My dog Hope is one of those. She would rush people with dogs if she were loose, pretty much every one she saw.

She doesn't fight, she's friendly even to little dogs that bite her aggressively.

She's also not very polite in that she'll run right up to another dog head on and fast, with intent to lick it's face. That doesn't go over very well with some dogs. Some dogs are ok, some just snarl and she backs off, some dogs attack her before she has a chance to display that appeasing licking. It's just her way though.

So she stays on a leash and under control. For her own good.

My new little rescue Kaya is fearful, I'm not wanting that to become fear aggression. It easily could get worse, her first instinct is to bite a dog that approaches, luckily Hope is always trying to get to the dog, Kaya is holding back close to me, so it all works out as Hope just wants to lick face on dogs and play regardless of how they approach her.

If Hope was reactive I would have a huge problem with loose dogs, with two leashes and two GSD's and a 3 dog fight under my legs.

It's like the little dog across the street, it can't weight 10lbs, it's maller than most cats. If Hope showed that much open aggression in front of someone they would soil their pants. 

The first time it attacked her I didn't know what she would do.
It's small enough she could seriously hurt it and never intend to.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think this is the main reason Rayden is reactive on leash. I can't count the number of times he's been jumped on by off-leash dogs. He's very obedient and will ignore a dog coming up to him because he knows that I will protect him. but in the case of the dobie, when he thought that I was in danger he went for her. he backed off the second I yelled, but he was in full pursuit to chase her back home. 

The guy was screaming vet bills, going to shoot my dog if he saw us walking again, etc etc. I offered to stand there and to even use my cell to call the cops - we were walking in a public road and she attacked us.

ETA: our last encounter was a pack of chihuahuas. I kid you not, 5 of the little







Rayden was trying his best to ignore them, Freya was so scared she was trying to climb up my back, and I'm trying to kick the little buggers off. The old lady was slowly tottering down her driveway yelling at them. She couldn't even pick them up because she had just had a lung biopsy.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: TxRiderMy dog Hope is one of those. She would rush people with dogs if she were loose, pretty much every one she saw.
> 
> She doesn't fight, she's friendly even to little dogs that bite her aggressively.
> 
> ...


That's exactly why I can't walk both my dogs together.If we run into a problem I can't control both and another dog.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDluver4lyfe
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel RMy dog "charges" but means no harm. He barks and makes A HUGE deal if he sees some other dog.
> ...


I know my dog.
he is very friendly. He DOES NOT approach a dog without me saying its ok. He can play with me...and have 6 other dogs around him...he will not go and say "hi" unless I say its ok.
Sounds dumb, but if someone has a "dog aggressive" dog...why bring it where there will be lots of other dogs.
I have majar respect for other dog owers when I am at the ball field.
I make sure I talk to them etc.
I hold my dog or put him in the car if a smaller dog is comming and the owners tell me they are nervous of my dog. 
I try to AVIOD problems. I try to think of the other dog owners that may be scared of my dog.
Once we talk and I explain, we let the dogs meet.
I dont just let my dog run up to everyone


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Angel, that makes you the exception, unfortunately. most people have 0 control over their dogs and don't see any problem with that.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> I try to AVIOD problems. I try to think of the other dog owners that may be scared of my dog.
> Once we talk and I explain, we let the dogs meet.
> I dont just let my dog run up to everyone


I think we all do, but allowing your dog to run unleashed illegally is not trying to avoid problems, it's creating them.

I don't let Hope run up to anyone. She never greets a dog unless that dogs owner wants to let her.

I just expect the same consideration in return.

If she acted like the little horrors that have attacked her, and was allowed to get loose like them, I would have cops at my door in minutes.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I met a cop in the ballfield where I was playing....
with 6 other unleashed dogs.....
Its NOT illegal here unless the park rules state so.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Angel,Now you just ticked me off.
Yes if the dog is a total aggressive dog it needs to not be around dogs.It ticks me off when I hear of the neighbor taking her dog to dog event since he has been known to draw blood on another dog and human.If dogs like mine want to go out they shouldn't have to worry about dogs like yours off leash if it is a leash only place.I highly doubt any of us here with an aggressive dog would take the chance and let it off lead.My dog needs socializing so how do you propose I do that if I shouldn't be around dogs?
I doubt we would do a lot of dog scenario either unless we thought we could handle it. Dog aggressive dog can vary by case too.Mine will hold her ground because she is scared of other dogs.I can handle her if the dog isn't running towards us but if they are I don't know what will happen.My dog will probably be the one hurt because she is so scared.Tell me,is that fair to my dog.Trust me and others,we won't purposely put our dog in a situation that will damage them.
I have a feeling that one sentence is going to bite you in the censored.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RI met a cop in the ballfield where I was playing....
> with 6 other unleashed dogs.....
> Its NOT illegal here unless the park rules state so.


That's all well and good, but that's not the situation the original post was talking about where it is illegal.

It's also just not considerate to have uncontrolled off leash dogs about unless it's in a dog park or controlled area. If you have as good control on your dog off leash as on, then there's no problem. Most people do not, including me, at least not yet.

Why should people with say a large reactive or fearful dog, walking it on a leash, have to deal with someone's dog running up into their dogs face and having their dog freak out and bite.

My dog would be the one running up if off leash, she is the most nonaggression dog I have ever owned, I keep her leashed so she cannot do that to people. It's just common courtesy and safe.

Imagine your walking little 10lb fluffy on a leash, and here comes this 70lb german shepherd racing right at her, all the way up to her face. I think most people would be scared witless, even if she is only wanting to lick the dogs face.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

none are so blind as those who can not see
tried to help original poster hope to try again
interesting post for learning the feelings members who try to deal and understand off lead dogs and their owners
bye now!!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Sadly Angel, you will one day completely understand what everyone here is trying to say.

You'll be out and about with your dog under perfect control when another dog will charge your dog. 

This dog will launch itself at your dog's face and latch on. When your dog reatilates to get the small dog off it's face and the small dog is injured who will get the blame, right or not, it will be the German Shepherd.

After that you'll learn to use the means needed to protect your dog.

Or - you could learn this lesson before this ever happens and be prepared to protect your dog now. That's what I did.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok. Again sorry.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Barb, 
What you say is so true.Before Athena I didn't understand aggression and dogs not being friendly.I was a bad owner with lexi,although always on leash when out I wouldn't worry about the other dogs unless of course it was reacting.When Athena started, it was put into prospective and I apologize to any dog I may have upset with Lexi.I now never let her close to another dog unless I can see it is ok or get the ok.

Like I have said to many,until it happens to you you just won't understand.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Angel I was not reffering to your dog. I was making a statement, that a "tail wag" does not always mean the dog is happy. I was curious if you knew that. 

An owner of a DA dog has every right to walk its dog on leash without having to worry about obnoxious off leash dogs. What do you suppose they do with their dogs? Lock them in a basement and throw away the key?!

Of course it would be highly irresponsible to take a DA dog to a dog park or a designated off leash area, but to go for a leisurely walk through an on leash area (where off-leash dogs should not even be a subject of worry) is MORE than reasonable. A dog doesnt need to be DA or "vicious" for a fight to break out. It could stem from dominance, fear, protection, ect. And its not always how your dog will react but how the other one will. Not all dogs get along, and having a dog that will fight with an offleash dog doesnt mean the dog is DA. So many different variables come into play. And one bad experience with an off leash dog can ruin your dog. 

You have control over your dog, thats great. but 99.99999% of people do not. It can get quite annoying and upsetting to not be able to walk your dog because you fear an off leash dog will charge you and your dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Angel..here's a hard lesson learned. This is why someone would use force against a dog. You are a tiny person...could you break up this fight without a stick or mace?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1252402&page=1#Post1252402


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

In this thread I have had to edit pseudo swearing and other foul language out. 

I have another thread that I had to put in a deleted archive to clean out personal attacks. 

Please review your post before you hit submit. I would hate to have to keep anyone after school to review the board rules.









Thank you. 
Jean
Admin


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I was once in PetsMart with Dante (on a 2' traffic lead) when around the corner came a Great Dane pup (I'm guessing about 7 months old) with no owner in site.

All I could see was the cord from the retractable (sp) leash.

Dante was fine, but I gave the owner a polite butt chewing when she finally came around the corner. What if Dante wasn't fine?
It's a store, not a park









Many dogs are fine being around other dogs, just don't want any licking, sniffing, etc!

We all learn lessons with our dogs and I learned over 5 years ago to take as many of those lessons from this board to save Dante's and my skin as I can!!!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDluver4lyfeAngel I was not reffering to your dog. I was making a statement, that a "tail wag" does not always mean the dog is happy. I was curious if you knew that.
> 
> An owner of a DA dog has every right to walk its dog on leash without having to worry about obnoxious off leash dogs. What do you suppose they do with their dogs? Lock them in a basement and throw away the key?!
> 
> ...


Im sure ITS SCARY! I was just not understanding kicking a small dog.
Im sorry. I will not post on this subject anymore.
Sorry


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANIn this thread I have had to edit pseudo swearing and other foul language out.
> 
> I have another thread that I had to put in a deleted archive to clean out personal attacks.
> 
> ...


Sorry but the first one shouldn't go against me.It was one if the other's I quoted.Can I get that off my record?
Thanks I'll do better at editing.I'm trying to be really good can You tell?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It's not on your permanent record.







You get a







for trying to be good! 

There is some good information in this thread. 

I also would feel very badly kicking at a dog so understand what you are saying (but don't come near my dogs please if you are not under control). I also appreciate you trying to learn and listening to others. And others educating-from all sorts of perpectives. 

In my mind the best thing would be a world wide leash law. Owners who violated it would be forced to pick up all the poop in a half mile radius for violating it. 

With their teeth.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANIt
> 
> In my mind the best thing would be a world wide leash law. Owners who violated it would be forced to pick up all the poop in a half mile radius for violating it.
> 
> With their teeth.


ewwww...that's harsh!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Hey! I didn't say lips! That's for repeat offenders.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANIn my mind the best thing would be a world wide leash law. Owners who violated it would be forced to pick up all the poop in a half mile radius for violating it.
> 
> With their teeth.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I bet it would work though....I hate picking up my own dogs never mind someone else's all filled with worms and stink.........


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

know I said bye but agree with some good info on thread.responsible owners have a strong leash or strong mental control AT ALL TIMES.
"If flies were a dog breed I'd have to revise my training-cause darn he kills them all"


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANIt
> ...





> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANHey! I didn't say lips! That's for repeat offenders.












Can I get some of that justice for the Poodle Lady I met yesterday? 

Long story short, her dog was off lead. She looked right at me while her dog was trotting towards Morgan.

I had to cross the road with my 3 small children and walk through peoples yards. Then she said something snippy I couldn't really hear when my *6 y/o son *said something about her dog not being on leash.

THEN and this is the thing that made me want to kick her in the pom poms (not her dogs hairdo, if you catch my drift) - at the next bench up from where she was sitting, there was FUR, butterscotch fuzzy fur just exactly the same color as her dog - *all over the ground*


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I would feel awful kicking or spraying someone's little dog, but I would feel a lot worse if it got all in my dogs face and my dog chomped it and killed it. This does happen.

Just as I would feel awful for doing it to someone's big dog, if I thought it was danger to my little dog.

But I would do it nonetheless.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> there was FUR, butterscotch fuzzy fur just exactly the same color as her dog - *all over the ground*


THIS IS SO SILLY!







!
buttersctoch fur


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Let's not pick on the poodle people - there's a few lurking here. They're not all bad and they don't all give their dog's silly hair cuts in a public park!

I'm so tempted to go back tomorrow, see if it's still sitting on the ground all stuck in the grass and if it is, leave a note that say 'This pile of dog fur courtesty of the ignorant Poodle Lady who's dog is above wearing a leash'

Just think about it, the rechargeable razor was sooooo heavy in her pocket, she couldn't possibly handle a leash at the same time.

It also makes me feel better to think I pretty much know where she lives and have dog friends on that block - we're armed with full poop bags.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> I'm so tempted to go back tomorrow, see if it's still sitting on the ground all stuck in the grass and if it is, leave a note that say 'This pile of dog fur courtesty of the ignorant Poodle Lady who's dog is above wearing a leash'


Sounds like a rock solid plan to me. Remember to take a picture and post it for the rest of us so we can live vicariously through you. You would be striking a blow for all of us!
Sheilah


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Picture? why not video?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

My only hope is that Angel R eventually understands the basic precept presented here.

I never really got all that wound up about off leash dogs until the Pit Bull attack. I did not like off leash dogs but they had not actually caused harm until the Pit Bull. And I like Pit Bulls too. . 

The old timers here may remember Max's attack in 2002. It ruined him and I had to eventually retire him from agility. Never again will I allow another off lesah dog to harm mine if I can stop it. And I really do not care what tactics I have to use. 

Do I want to hurt somone's dog? No - but I will if I have to. 

Angel R keep your off leash dog out of my dogs' face until we both decide a greeting is okay. Don't ever let your dog charge up to mine when mine is leashed and walking politely. Because if you cannot control your dog I'll do it for you.









That is not mean, I am not mean and my dogs are not vicious either. They are all pretty dog friendly, except when being charged by barking, lunging dogs. 

Sure hope you take some of this to heart.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also think this has been an educational thread.

I do not want to hurt another animal either, but my animals are more important to me than 'yours', so I will do what I have to do.

I would also feel terrible if my dog 'hurt' your dog, better I do it, than my dog, because as one poster put it, no matter what, the german shepherd is going to be blamed(

While I don't consider Masi DA, she does not appreciate unfamiliar dogs in her 'space/face'. I take her EVERYWHERE with me, dog shows, classes,stores, parks, hiking. Do I worry about her? No. She's a dog who minds her own business but I DO worry about other dogs/owners.

I will not stop taking her everywhere with me because she is not a 'golden retriever' with all dogs/people she encounters.

There is a huge misconception with Joe Public dog owner, that all dogs get along or should. 

Its about being respectful of others , that lack of respect is considered down right rude behavior in my book and unfortunately can end up in a lawsuit(

So whether anyone agrees with it or not, your dog may be friendly, mine doesn't want to be your friend)


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Kayos is not DA either, but she like Masi, does not want other dogs running up into her face either. She does get reactive when that happens. She does not start it tho. 

Max goes over the top with other dogs in his space, it is fear. He never really liked it either but after the PB attack he has ZERO tolerance. It is "I'm going to get them first" mentality. 

Havoc does not seem to mind but I don't want to put him in that position.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

just for another example...

We were having a group training session in the park. In this session were two 6 month old gsd sisters that a couple owned. These puppies had seperation anxiety, fear aggression and were reactive to the other dogs.

Along comes a loose golden retriever and plows right into the group, without any aggression, and the owner far behind and taking his own sweet time getting to his dog. The GR plows into goldendoodle and rolled the 4 month old puppy, who luckily is always up to the task of playing. If the GR had rolled one of those shepherds there would have been a dog going for stitches.

The sad facts are some ppl are morons and the dogs pay the price. I don't care how cute your dog is or how nice you think your dog is. If it charges my dog I will kick it before it can get to me and mine if I think it's aggressive.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what bugs me the MOST is when someone yells, " But my dog is friendly"....THAT irritates the you know what outta me )


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Yeah 'He's friendly' or 'He won't do anything' bugs the shpoodies out of me too. Today walking my lovely (if somewhat crabby) old lady dog in the park, I kept thinking of this thread. 

I was fully well prepared to say 'Yeah but my dog is a crazy old nazi bitch!' I think it sums Morgan up quickly and would get my point across. 

Course you know when you're completely prepared for everything, nothing ever goes wrong.



> Originally Posted By: sit,staySounds like a rock solid plan to me. Remember to take a picture and post it for the rest of us so we can live vicariously through you. You would be striking a blow for all of us!
> Sheilah


You know, I should have gone back yesterday before all the poodle pom poms were scattered off in the 15 mph sustained wind we've had the last few days.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAwhat bugs me the MOST is when someone yells, " But my dog is friendly"....THAT irritates the you know what outta me )


My dog is friendly, I realize not all other people's are that she will run up to though...

And a big strange GSD running at you is never anticipated as friendly..









Reading this thread makes me thank the stars Hope is totally non aggressive or reactive. For a rescue dog I lucked out on that one big time. When a loose dog runs up unless it is large and just outright jumps on her in an attack Hope will diffuse it with appeasing behavior.

It doesn't mean I can let her loose to run up to other people and their dogs though. She has met pretty much every dog in the neighborhood on a leash now though, and only 1-2 have been reactive enough to bite her.

I have even used to her to try to help calm down some other big unruly dogs that were dragging their owners around by walking with them.


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