# Starting growling and snapping



## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

I need some advice. I have a nearly 3 year old GSD male, Strider. He's been a perfect angel up until our Alpha Rottweiler died in March. Shortly after that he began growling at my husband when he was on the couch/bed. He has since been kicked off of both. Then about two months ago he snapped at him while he was petting him on the stairs. Strider was on the middle landing and my husband was below him. 

He has also snapped at my daughter (12) always when she is next to me. First time was on the couch and she was sitting next to me. She reached over to scratch her foot and he lunged and snapped. Last night I was sitting on the ground with him and she came to sit with me to pet him. (We will not be sitting on the ground to pet him anymore...) He was lying on his side with his head by me. She sat in front of me and was petting him with her foot. I saw him lift his lip and tense then snapped at her foot. He didn't make contact any of the times. 

He was unaltered up until 3 weeks ago. That was the first thing we did. Will having my husband and daughter take over all duties for him help? Is there hope? I have gotten advice from others but wanted to come to this board for breed specific advice. 

TIA.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

TIA. I don't know a whole lot about dog behavior but I would consider your dog's behavior toward your husband and daughter warnings, And warnings from dogs tend to escalate in to aggression.

I think you should try and find a trainer who knows the GSD breed. A good trainer will find the root of the problem and will help plan a solution. Probably a strict training regiment that involves the family.
Has your dog had any obedience training? My 12 year old granddaughter goes to training with our dog and me. It's fun and a nice way to build a relationship/bond with your dog. 
Down the road, once this behavior has been evaluated and resolved your daughter might enjoy participating in the training.

My former shepherd was aggressive outside our home.
I learned to manage his aggression through training.
It's a lot of work but it's worth it in the end because the whole family benefits from it.
Good luck and take care.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Findlay said:


> I would consider your dog's behavior toward your husband and daughter warnings, And warnings from dogs tend to escalate in to aggression.


This, very much this. 

Why do you describe your lost rottie as an "alpha rottie?" Was he dominant over your shepherd? It may very well be that since your rottie kept your shepherd inline, and since the rottie's passing, the pack order got upset and your shepherd didn't re-establish himself in the right spot (ie. below your entire family). I'd guess this was due to little to no discipline & consistency from your family's side. 

Dogs are constantly evaluating their relationships with their surroundings, and if things change (such as the passing of a pack member), all related relationships get re-evaluated in a big way. This is why consistency in your behavior is so important.

I think your family needs to re-establish itself as being in control, because right now it sounds like your shepherd thinks he's below you, but above the rest of the family. Lots and lots of obedience training (via all members of the family) should make a big difference. Now that it has gotten to the point of handler aggression, I think you need to put a prong collar on him with a dominant dog collar as a backup (both on simultaneously, but setup so that corrections are only given with the prong - unless it breaks or snaps off).

I'd also suggest finding a local trainer that has many years of experience with GSDs, and working with them. The sooner you address this issue, the easier the process will be.

In the short/immediate-term, I'd keep a leash on the dog in the house, and force him to follow you as you move around. You get off the couch to go in the kitchen, the dog follows. You go to the bathroom, the dog follows. He is to follow your lead, and never make decisions for himself. His independence ended with his snapping. Any further signs of aggression need to be immediately (and rather harshly) corrected with a prong collar. Letting this behaviour slide is condoning it, and that'll only escalate things.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sorry, can't help you either. Just trying to bump this up. A really interesting situation. What part did your rott play in all this I wonder? Did he keep this aggression down or is it a move up in pack position in your GSD's mind?

My first thought would be behaviorist, not as much a basic trainer. You have a dangerous situation on your hands until someone can explain to you what could be going on with this dog. Because he just got fixed - don't think he needs another check up by a vet.

Please be careful, all of you..... You referred to the Rott as being the Alpha. I wonder if this dog always considered himself 2nd in line in pack order and is now feeling he is #1. Not good..... I think you need very careful guidance by a pro to get a good solid outcome before it goes any further.


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

Yes, the rottie kept him in line. He definitely still sees me as alpha over him but obviously above my daughter and husband. The two instances of him snapping at my daughter I immediately pinned him. I do have a prong that we use. I need to talk to the husband about doing some formal training with him in addition to my daughter. 

He already follows me everywhere. I get up. He gets up. He is my shadow.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you need some professional help. The whole alpha discussion and pinning the dog is kind of outdated thinking. Pinning your dog is a good way to suffer a severe bite and it not teaching him anything of any lasting value. 

I would also have him evaluated before family members give him a harsh prong correction. That can also backfire if the dog does not already respect them. 

I am not going to try to give direct advice because you need someone who can see the dog personally to help you come up with a plan. I assume part of that plan may be for all people to be involved in his training and for all resources to have to be earned (food, going outside, petting, etc.). I know there are folks on this forum who can help you find a good trainer in So Cal to help you.


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

Thank you for your advice. I'd love some trainer suggestions.


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## T-Bone'sMamma (Mar 3, 2012)

I am no expert, whatsoever, but please be VERY careful using physical punishment when your GSD is showing warning behaviors. I believe a dog who is given a correction for a warning behavior, is less likely to display that warning in the future and go straight to a very nasty bite. It sort of cements in the dogs mind "Ehh, I KNEW I didn't like being around "person X", and I was right! When they're around and I tell them to back off, I get hurt." I would definitely keep that dog leashed to me at all times, and introduce NILIF and a clicker. When he is calm around your daughter or husband, click and reward. Have them tell your dog to SIT from a distance, and throw him a treat. This is just my opinion, I agree with everyone else a pro trainer is needed. 

Get a good eval, but sorry, IMO, a dog who is dangerous to members of its own pack may not be suited for that home. Your daughters safety has to be number one. A dog who is aggressive with strangers and guests is one thing, a dog who will (unprovoked) aggress towards family.... scary stuff. See a trainer, but be honest with them and yourself about how much management is possible. How much margin for error in the time it takes to recondition him? 

I know this has to be terribly anxiety provoking for you. ((hugs)) and fingers crossed you can hook up with a good trainer and got a solid plan in place to extinguish this behavior.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

FoxyMom said:


> Thank you for your advice. I'd love some trainer suggestions.


In L.A., I recall hearing really good things about Cinimon Clark's work with aggressive dogs. I think she specializes in pit bulls, though. I can't remember where I heard about her, but it was years ago. It had to have been through the rescue grapevine out there, as I think she works with a lot of rescues. I have no personal experience with her though. I think she's in the Valley.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

First if you want to find a trainer ... Jeff Gellman, says that he can help people find a trainer local to them. He can be found here:
Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

And when you go to Jeff's site look under the heading "Free Advise" your question has most likely been covered. I know I saw some work with kids and dogs.

He is a "Balanced Trainer" and those "are" the trainers that can help you with dogs like this!

He can also be contacted on FB and you can ask questions there! 

And since your in So Ca you can also contact Sean O'Shea this guy:
Los Angeles Dog Trainer - Dog Aggression Training - Dog Behavior Modification

Same deal as above and Jeff and Sean are friends just on different coast!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well I did the responsible and traditional thing already ... so now I can do my thing!

OK, nothing wrong with the "Prong Collar" or the "DDC" (which people that use a SSL, already have at there disposal ...just saying. ) but ...this "poster" and "this" dog.

Maybe not such a good idea?? Sean O'Shea has seen "problems" with a lot of clients and these days he has them use two collars also a "Prong Collar" for guidance and a DDC attached to a traffic leash for corrections.

Pretty sure you understand that a "Prong Collar" can take "Drive out of a dog" but it can also put "Drive into a dog!" 

No doubt if they contact a "Balanced trainer" and that would be a trainer that can help you with this dog, then yes most likely they will "instructed" the OP in the proper use of the tool. I just don't think it's a good go to choice with there current skill set and this dog?? The term "up-leash dog" comes readily to mind here.

For the record everything, they need to know is on both the sites I listed,


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The "Clicker" thing for this dog, right now with these issues, ...not really a fan. That "noise"
might easily send this dog over the edge?? Don't know?? What I do know is that I have not seen anyone that deals with dogs with serious issues, use a "Clicker" for rehab?? 

If they do let them post there work.

Your average dog if it works for you go for it. This particular dog ... I won't, I go with the "Pro's."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

If people want to see and hear how "Pro's" work with dog's like this. Jeff Gellman is working with one "now." (Only on Periscope for 24 hrs)download the Periscope app to your smartphone and you can see!

And "yuri" yes he is using a "Prong Collar." 


https://www.periscope.tv/

Install and Follow: solidk9training


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

Findlay said:


> TIA. .. And warnings from dogs tend to escalate in to aggression ... I think you should try and find a trainer who knows the GSD breed. A good trainer will find the root of the problem and will help plan a solution. Probably a strict training regiment that involves the family .. It's a lot of work but it's worth it in the end because the whole family benefits from it.





yuriy said:


> In the short/immediate-term, I'd keep a leash on the dog in the house, and force him to follow you as you move around. You get off the couch to go in the kitchen, the dog follows. You go to the bathroom, the dog follows. He is to follow your lead, and never make decisions for himself. His independence ended with his snapping. Any further signs of aggression need to be immediately (and rather harshly) corrected with a prong collar. Letting this behaviour slide is condoning it, and that'll only escalate things.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Definitely, seriously consider professional training starting as soon as you can. Your trainer will be able give you valuable feedback once they meet the dog and evaluate him. It is well worth it at the end of the day. You might also want to have a vet look at him. Sometimes dog that don't feel well can turn aggressive.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

MythicMut said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Definitely, seriously consider professional training starting as soon as you can. Your trainer will be able give you valuable feedback once they meet the dog and evaluate him. It is well worth it at the end of the day. You might also want to have a vet look at him. Sometimes dog that don't feel well can turn aggressive.


Seeing a vet to examine your dog is probably the 1st thing you should do and a trainer might even recommend it.

I just wanted to add that it's probably not a good idea to attempt any training on your own with your pup. He needs professional help.

And one more thing: Don't listen to anyone who tells you to re-home your dog. Only someone who has had lots of experience in rehabbing aggressive dogs and has had his/her eyes and hands on your dog is qualified to make that recommendation.


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

The hard part is his instances are few and very far between. He's literally a perfect angel 99% of the time. My dogs do live by NILF. I just have to get the husband and daughter more involved in his care/training. Right now, for obvious reasons, my daughter is a bit apprehensive about doing anything with him. 

And I totally hear you on the warning thing. I appreciate his warnings over straight up aggression. But, when you are in the moment and you dog snaps at your kid it's hard to not do anything. Looking back it may not (or maybe it was) have been the right way to go. I'll get a pro in here and see what they say. I've already talked to one but she's not local so she didn't actually see him. But she knows his full story. 

He has been checked by a vet. He was neutered less than a month ago. Full blood work and everything. 

Last resort is rehoming of course. He's my resposibity. But I understand where that poster is coming from. I've already thought of that. I'm a responsible dog owner but I'm also a responsible mom. ???

Thank you for your time. Off to find a local trainer that can help us.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Maybe start another thread titled - Trainer suggestions So Cal - Human Aggression unless you got some good suggestions through private messages.

One name that pops up to me is Anne Kent at Adlerstein. 

I am not sure if she does on on one but if not she probably knows most of the trainers in the area.

She is on this board as Vandal but is not very active in logging in/posting

Adler Stein Kennels-Dog Boarding Santa Clarita- Dog Training Santa Clarita 661 367-0440- Dog Boarding Los Angeles-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds


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## Reef LeDoux (Feb 21, 2015)

Foxy I sent you a private message. Just wanted to make sure you know to look at them.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

FoxyMom said:


> *The hard part is his instances are few and very far between. He's literally a perfect angel 99% of the time. *This is hard and the hardest part about it is, it's hard to predict when he'll snap, which makes his behavior unpredictable.
> I had an aggressive GSD. His aggression was also unpredictable, only "some" men and only "sometimes." : )
> But he was a great Family dog. I trusted him 100% while he was inside our home.
> 
> ...


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

Thank you all so much. I love this board. I will post anothe thread and also contact Alder Stein. That's actually very local to me. So hopefully it works out. I'm also thinking of having a full blood/urine panel done on him just to make sure everything is in the clear. He had pre-op blood work but not a full panel.


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