# I feel for the pet people trying to find a good trainer



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's hard enough to find a good training group for experienced people or people who know what they want and what they don't want. 

Weeding through all these self proclaimed trainers... gawsh... a friend of mine sent a video about a trainer who can sure talk the talk but once you actually, see how he builds drive, or what he thinks protection training is and how the helper handles the dog on the sleeve... my husband could do better than that and he has never worn a sleeve before. 

Problem is, these guys know how to sell themselves and people believe what they tell them because they don't know any better. They don't know what to look for and don't see that they are ripped off of several hundreds of dollars. 

I really feel for unsuspecting pet people. It's a jungle out there and it can't be easy to weed through all these trainers when you don't know much about the business.
I wish we could create a list of bad trainers and warn people to stay away from them, but then we'd probably have a law suit on us.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

I know how you feel it's exactly the same here. 
So many people calling themselves "dog trainers" they have no qualifications or really much of an idea of what they are doing. 
One that I checked out was a woman in one of the new housing estates that decided she was a dog trainer because she had a few pet dogs that she had trained - she teaches her classes in the park across the road from her house - and charges people a lot of money for it  
She also gives seminars on BARF feeding - on her website she clearly states that Pork is poisonous for dogs 
I've been looking for a good training class for months adn just can't find anything that doesn't seem to be a rip off  the current lady I see is ok when she can be bothered and isn't just chatting to her friends for the whole class instead of teaching.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I kinda look at it like getting a vet/doctor or anything else though, If I don't like what I'm seeing I'll go somewhere else...

I get kind of annoyed at the Puppy Training Deposits that the Humane Society (where I live) charges....if you don't like any of the trainers on their approved list you're out $250 bucks.

I know two trainers that I'd prefer over their list trainers.
Just my opinion. I'm not bashing them really, as some formal training is better than no formal training and I prefer a trainer that will call BS on me as the the human if I'm not doing my part.....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Word of mouth is probably the best way to find a good trainer.

One thing that works in the 'bad' ones favor, no competition or anyone in their area that will call them out on their methods. 
So they are the best thing around and nobody can tell the difference, because they have nothing to compare the trainer to.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Word of mouth is probably the best way to find a good trainer.
> 
> One thing that works in the 'bad' ones favor, no competition or anyone in their area that will call them out on their methods.
> So they are the best thing around and nobody can tell the difference, because they have nothing to compare the trainer to.


This is true! I've got a TOTALLY awesome trainer lined up! When you speak to them, ask questions. Talk about not only methods of training, but expectations and what this person feels about the breed. You have to be able to communicate with your trainer and be on the same page. Just like with my breeder, my trainer to be has the same general opinions on training and the breed in general. I think I'm going to be very, very happy!!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i am fortunate that i knew someone who was able to put me in touch with diane bauman and have trained with a few people she has schooled in dog training. with my first gsds, i was fortunate enough to attend classes with "louise" from augers training. this woman was part gsd herself. she could have taught ceaser a few things.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I agree. As much as I dislike government intervention, I wish there was some standard of training required; so many hours of education, written and practical testing. 

I also agree with CarrieJ about the Puppy Training Deposits when you adopt. We had a bad experience with our previous dog. We had to pay the deposit, then the SPCA did not have any classes available for 2 months, you did not have a choice of trainers, by that time our dog was too old, then the SPCA shut down for reorganization and I never got my deposit back.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've seen rescues where they have you pay a deposit but they refund it when you give proof that you've enrolled in a training class or completed a training class, but they don't make you go to a specific trainer.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Yeah. I was kinda disappointed at how difficult it was to find a trainer for Gabe. The one I settled on is....okay. He's not my ideal guy, but we do a lot of work at home, so it's coming out alright.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wait 'til I put on my flack-jacket. 

Ok. 

I don't think pet-people should be training dogs in protection. Don't get me wrong, I think protection dogs can be great pets, and you should not have to be a police officer or military person to train a protection dog. But I just don't think just anyone should be starting out in protection.

I think trainers who train protection should require a BH or the equivalent first. And the equivalent would be a CD and CGC. I think that once you have trained a dog to that level, then you are beyond the point where you can't tell a good trainer from a bad trainer in general. However, they will not be able to tell a good protection trainer from a bad protection trainer. But they will probably have at least some contacts that can help them. 

For people working at the pre-BH level. There are some things that they can do. I am only familiar with those in the pet-akc-performance arena. You can look at the resume of a dog trainer, check to see if they are part of the American Pet Dog Trainers; are they involved in performance obedience/rally, etc; have they trained there own dogs to specific levels; have they trained other people who have succeeded with their dogs; are they qualified to judge competitions, and or adiminster CGC/TDI type tests. 

Just because you only want a nice pet, doesn't mean you should not go to a trainer who does more than that. So long as that person is not ignoring people who are not persuing titles, they are in my opinion an excellent choice for people looking to train dogs as good, manageable pets. 

Once an individual has trained their first dog in protection sports, then they can choose how to proceed with subsequent dogs. But pet-people who want a protection dog, well if I was charging for training, these people would have to prove to me that they are committed to reach a certain level with their dogs before beginning training that could possibly increase their liability, and increase the negative reputation of the breed. A person who has trained dogs in protection prior could probably have a good assessment of the dog's nerve and potential, but a new pet person needs to gain that knowledge by experiencing training with the dog.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

You're telling me! All the ones out here are hacks. Of those I've personally met, either I could teach better then they could, or they wanted to charge me an arm and a leg after giving me a lackluster demo where the dog listens great, but really has no enthusiasm to work. I've finally found a trainer who I'm hoping will fit the bill after TWO years of living out here. A husband/wife team who actually trains AND trials their own dogs (Malinois). Just need my car/eye troubles taken care of before I bother with further inquiries.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sandra, is this someone local?

I kinda agree with you Sue. Bad protection can go horribly wrong. People really need to be responsible about finding someone who really knows what they are doing when you train it. And trainers need to make sure only responsible people will be allowed to work their dogs in it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Problem is, these guys know how to sell themselves and people believe what they tell them because they don't know any better. They don't know what to look for and don't see that they are ripped off of several hundreds of dollars.
> 
> I really feel for unsuspecting pet people. It's a jungle out there and it can't be easy to weed through all these trainers when you don't know much about the business.


Absolutely. We have two "trainers" in the area who can't train their way out of a wet paper bag--one of whom volunteered his "services" to our local shelter to help train, socialize and rehab shelter dogs. After a couple of months, they fired him. How bad do you have to be to get FIRED from volunteer work? He did some really unprofessional and unethical things, word got around, and he basically got run out of town after a couple of years. I saw him posting on Craigslist recently with a new business name, so I guess he's back in town hoping everyone forgot about him.

Here's another "trainer" who has been posting on Craigslist recently (I omitted the contact info):

"
**Compare Our Prices!***

All Breed Training * Basic & Advanced obedience for Puppies & Adult Dogs *
Behavior Problem Solving * Boundary Training * Doggie Tricks
Business and Home K9 Protection Training

Now Offering "BOARD & TRAIN BOOT CAMP" *****

****NO GIMMICKS****

Over 15 Years experience training for the Public, Sports Celebrities, Television Industry & Law Enforcement!

Clients include--- Horace Grant (LA LAKERS * CHICAGO BULLS), Southern CA Television Industry, Washington DC Police Dpt, Veterinary Industry... Etc !


We would love to help you and your pet ! " 

Since I do get asked for trainer referrals, I sent him an email asking what "no gimmicks" meant. He refused to answer the question but told me in no uncertain terms what I could go do with myself. With that attitude, it's no wonder he's been reduced from working with celebrities, TV and police departments to posting on Craigslist to drum up business.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

selzer said:


> I don't think pet-people should be training dogs in protection. Don't get me wrong, I think protection dogs can be great pets, and you should not have to be a police officer or military person to train a protection dog. But I just don't think just anyone should be starting out in protection.
> 
> I think trainers who train protection should require a BH or the equivalent first. And the equivalent would be a CD and CGC. I think that once you have trained a dog to that level, then you are beyond the point where you can't tell a good trainer from a bad trainer in general. However, they will not be able to tell a good protection trainer from a bad protection trainer. But they will probably have at least some contacts that can help them.


I can kind of see your point, but also look at it another way. We want all of our new clients to get involved in bite work, not necessarily "protection" work. We like to teach the pup/dog a reliable out command which can only be taught if you teach to grip on command as well. So all of our clients get started in puppy tug work from day one (being cognizant of the stage of teething they are in of course). They learn a bite command and an out command, yin and yang, you need one for the other. 

As to the BH thing, that could work for some dogs, but there are many dogs whose owners can take quite a while to do that first BH. If you wait to start any bite work until that time (2yrs plus on average for a first timer) you will miss out on some very vital development stages. Sometimes missing this early intro will significantly impact the level of drive you get for the work. Not always, I have seen some fully mature dogs who have never seen a sleeve come out to the club and "get it" on day one. Those dogs will pick it up pretty much anytime, but many of the dogs not bought or bred specifically for the work seem to lose it if it's not made a part of their psyche from an early age. Most of the time the first timers don't know what to buy so this is commonly the type of dog they start out with. I'd hate to sour them on the sport buy diminishing the dog's drive and their joy of the activity. 
Of course at our club all the members must participate in obedience before doing bite work. If the dog is reaching a point the obedience is falling behind they are made to only do bite work as a reward for obedience as well as do some extra time in training to get up to speed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Wait 'til I put on my flack-jacket.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> ...


 
One thing to keep in mind when we are talking about "protection" training for our dogs.

There is a HUGE difference in training in ScH (or now IPO) and in true protection training (as in a K9 or a PP dog). ScH is a sport and needs to be treated as such while true protection is a deadly serious nbusiness in which lives may well be at stake. Very different.

BTW, BH is actually just an OB/Temperament test and passing it is a requirement to progress into the ScH 3 pronged training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> One thing to keep in mind when we are talking about "protection" training for our dogs.
> 
> There is a HUGE difference in training in ScH (or now IPO) and in true protection training (as in a K9 or a PP dog). ScH is a sport and needs to be treated as such while true protection is a deadly serious nbusiness in which lives may well be at stake. Very different.
> 
> BTW, BH is actually just an OB/Temperament test and passing it is a requirement to progress into the ScH 3 pronged training.


I know that BH/Schutzhund is different from working/protection. But I think a total newbie needs to determine if they have what it takes and if the dog has the nerve to be a good candidate for protection. The BH is like the CGC in that it has you work around people, and distractions, etc, but it includes a good level of obedience similar to what you would get in a CD. 

Bocron, I guess I can understand that some of the drives etc, can be better honed when the dog is a puppy. And, I think people should know when they buy a pup what type of things they want to do with the puppy. But, I also think that people would need to give me more than "I want dogs like Stephan Segals" to start working them in protection type training. 

In the end, the people with the least business training a dog in protection will be the people who land with the worst trainers, and the results could be disastrous.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

selzer said:


> In the end, the people with the least business training a dog in protection will be the people who land with the worst trainers, and the results could be disastrous.


You are right there. I hear some horrific stories of what people and their dogs have been exposed to before finding us. I'm not saying we are the best in the world (ok, maybe my husband is one of them) but we have evolved over the years to a more organic view of IPO type training. 

There is no certification out there for protection work trainers so the average Joe is left with internet hype. 

On a side note, we encourage our clients and club members to get a BH title, regardless of whether they plan to do any further training in IPO or anything else for that matter.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

codmaster said:


> There is a HUGE difference in training in ScH (or now IPO) and in true protection training (as in a K9 or a PP dog). ScH is a sport and needs to be treated as such while true protection is a deadly serious nbusiness in which lives may well be at stake. Very different.


Which makes it all the more dangerous for the average joe who wants a "tough" dog but doesn't know anything about dog behavior and training.

There is some dolt in our area who advertises personal protection training on craigslist. Just a bad idea all the way around.

I'm not against PP training, not at all--but the type of dog needed and the type of training needed, is not for everyone. Not everyone is responsible enough to handle a bite-trained dog, and many are not even capable. There is also a tremendous liability in training a dog to bite humans *for real*. SchH protection carries enough liability, but at least you can argue that it is all a game to the dog, that the dog would rather take the sleeve and let the bad guy run away, etc. With PP training as I understand it, you have to proof the dog with hidden sleeves and such to make sure it will bite a person and not just equipment. There's no arguing your way out of that one if you have to go to court over a dog bite!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There's a guy who was posting a CL ad in my area too. Would train your dog to be a protection dog in 6 weeks... he placed an ad soliciting someone to be a decoy(for free) 
Poor dogs.


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## Epic (Oct 31, 2012)

I helped some friends adopt a 2 year old dog from the humane society. They enrolled in a training program and idolized the trainer after the first session. In one month, their dog went from biddable but green out of the shelter, to tense and nervous with the owner constantly jerking the leash and nearly strangling the dog. 

The trainer was all "You have a highly dominant dog! Negative reinforcement is the only way! No food! E-collars for all dogs!" and tried to fit this nice dog into his mold... to sell more training sessions. Once they stopped going, the dog went back to normal. They were lucky.

There are no GSD clubs in my area, unfortunately. I don't want to train in Sch/PSA because I am a pet person. I want to pursue therapy work and I'm sure I will have 10 trainers tell me that GSDs are not suitable. While I could do training myself, there is value in formal sessions and I will need to deal with the drama and go, for the dog's sake. :help:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

yes, it's hard on the novice to know a good trainer from
a bad trainer. how can we help them? then again what
one person thinks is a great trainer another person may
think that trainer is puppy poop. wow, what do you do?


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> yes, it's hard on the novice to know a good trainer from
> a bad trainer. how can we help them? then again what
> one person thinks is a great trainer another person may
> think that trainer is* puppy poop*. wow, what do you do?


Love your choice of words. Made me laugh.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bocron said:


> I can kind of see your point, but also look at it another way. We want all of our new clients to get involved in bite work, not necessarily "protection" work. We like to teach the pup/dog a reliable out command which can only be taught if you teach to grip on command as well. So all of our clients get started in puppy tug work from day one (being cognizant of the stage of teething they are in of course). They learn a bite command and an out command, yin and yang, you need one for the other.
> 
> As to the BH thing, that could work for some dogs, but there are many dogs whose owners can take quite a while to do that first BH. If you wait to start any bite work until that time (2yrs plus on average for a first timer) you will miss out on some very vital development stages. Sometimes missing this early intro will significantly impact the level of drive you get for the work. Not always, I have seen some fully mature dogs who have never seen a sleeve come out to the club and "get it" on day one. Those dogs will pick it up pretty much anytime, but many of the dogs not bought or bred specifically for the work seem to lose it if it's not made a part of their psyche from an early age. Most of the time the first timers don't know what to buy so this is commonly the type of dog they start out with. I'd hate to sour them on the sport buy diminishing the dog's drive and their joy of the activity.
> Of course at our club all the members must participate in obedience before doing bite work. If the dog is reaching a point the obedience is falling behind they are made to only do bite work as a reward for obedience as well as do some extra time in training to get up to speed.


Folks, please look up what is involved in the BH test before starting to make a lot of comments about it. Some folks on this forum seem to be missing what is involved in the BH test.

There is NO BITE WORK (or tracking for that matter either!) in the BH exam or training. It is strictly an obedience/temperament test!

It is a prerequiste fot taking the ScH (IPO) exams!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Folks, please look up what is involved in the BH test before starting to make a lot of comments about it. Some folks on this forum seem to be missing what is involved in the BH test.
> 
> There is NO BITE WORK (or tracking for that matter either!) in the BH exam or training. It is strictly an obedience/temperament test!
> 
> It is a prerequiste fot taking the ScH (IPO) exams!


Codmaster, we are all well aware of that. The point is that you don't train for the BH, you train beyond the BH towards IPO 1/2/3 and take the BH along the way. 

Even though we don't have the BH yet, our trainer has put me directly onto the path for the IPO1 which has everything you need to pass the BH.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

This dog here is apparently being reevaluated because the owners paid 12 grand for him and were told that he was a level 3 pp dog. Doesn't looks like that's the case from this video.

Brokas Evaluation Clip


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Codmaster, *we are all* well aware of that. The point is that you don't train for the BH, you train beyond the BH towards IPO 1/2/3 and take the BH along the way.
> 
> Even though we don't have the BH yet, our trainer has put me directly onto the path for the IPO1 which has everything you need to pass the BH.


*K,*

*You speak for everyone?*

Actually, the IPO1 comes only AFTER the BH. (A prerequisite)

One has to have their dog pass the Bh before they can take the IPO1 test.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> *K,*
> 
> *You speak for everyone?*
> 
> ...


I think you're missing the point. Pups play with flirt poles, bite pillows, etc. while working towards their BH so they have the foundation to go onto the IPO work and trials. It has nothing to do with what comes first... that's a given. The point is not doing ANY prep for the next step is losing time to make that connection in a pup's mind.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jag said:


> I think you're missing the point. Pups play with flirt poles, bite pillows, etc. while working towards their BH so they have the foundation to go onto the IPO work and trials. It has nothing to do with what comes first... that's a given. The point is not doing ANY prep for the next step is losing time to make that connection in a pup's mind.


i think that you may have missed my point - I never said that one couldn't TRAN for the other phases involved for IPO1 while training for the BH, only that the BH is a prerequisite for the IPO1 test and that a dog had to pass the BH BEFORE ever being able to take the later tests.

Nothing about what one was training for!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> i think that you may have missed my point - I never said that one couldn't TRAN for the other phases involved for IPO1 while training for the BH, only that the BH is a prerequisite for the IPO1 test and that a dog had to pass the BH BEFORE ever being able to take the later tests.
> 
> Nothing about what one was training for!


I didn't see any posts where people were confused about that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jag said:


> I didn't see any posts where people were confused about that.


 Good for you. Maybe read the thread againh?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> There's a guy who was posting a CL ad in my area too. Would train your dog to be a protection dog in 6 weeks... he placed an ad soliciting someone to be a decoy(for free)
> Poor dogs.


There is a supposed 25 year dog trainer (claims police dog, SAR, assistance training) who just opened a new location in my area who advertises handing over your "dream dog"...breed doesn't matter and they will return to you a family protection dog. I have also seen him doing sleeve work in the darn parking lot with off leash dogs next to a busy street...it literally stops traffic...I'm floored by this. It's a strip plaza with other businesses and a shared parking lot (H&R Block, kids dance studio).

My neighbor who is a police officer asked me over the summer if I trained with him because he's really good and his friend. I politely said we were happy with the training and trainer we use currently (I do not partcipate in protection work with my boy).

It really does appear from the outside looking in this program is a mess. His website and videos are scary....poor dogs AND unsuspecting owners.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Codmaster, we understand that the BH is kind of like a CGC with a CD, there is training in crowds, with visual distractions, and audio distractions, etc, and then there is obedience, off lead and on lead. It does not contain protection or tracking. But a dog that cannot manage what it does contain, is probably not a good candidate to go on to bitework. I think you are the only one that is currently confused.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Codmaster, *we* understand that the BH is kind of like a CGC with a CD, there is training in crowds, with visual distractions, and audio distractions, etc, and then there is obedience, off lead and on lead. It does not contain protection or tracking. But a dog that cannot manage what it does contain, is probably not a good candidate to go on to bitework. I think you are the only one that is currently confused.


 
I am sure that we all appreciate you deciding to speak for all of US. And I certainly understand your concern. I never realized that you were also an authority on all things ScH/IPO. 

And thank you also for being kind enough and knowledgable enough to point out that the SV BH exam is "sort of like" the AKC CD and the AKC CGC. I am sure that there are many folks that are glad that you did point the similarities among these three things out.

I know that the folks in my local clubs would be pleased to understand that similarity. Heh! Heh!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> I am sure that we all appreciate you deciding to speak for all of US. And I certainly understand your concern. I never realized that you were also an authority on all things ScH/IPO.
> 
> And thank you also for being kind enough and knowledgable enough to point out that the SV BH exam is "sort of like" the AKC CD and the AKC CGC. I am sure that there are many folks that are glad that you did point the similarities among these three things out.
> 
> I know that the folks in my local clubs would be pleased to understand that similarity. Heh! Heh!


What is it a full moon or what?

I know they are not exactly the same, I do understand the SchH1, 2, 3 which is now IPO, and the BH, I am very familiar with the CGC and AKC CD. I said sort of, just because I think that for some of us, the one path is more available than the other. Even if you cannot find a SchH club in your area, there is really no excuse for not being able to get a dog to a certain level that tests temperament and management and obedience, before jumping into protection. 

Bocron's post was very helpful in why one might not want to wait until the dog/handler has reached a level of training to go forward with protection, but I think there could be some sort of balance. Maybe the WDA could put forth guidelines/recomendations for trainers to try to ensure that dogs have the proper temperament and owners the proper temperament/commitment before putting training on the dog that will make the owners more liable in the eyes of the law in the event that there is a problem involving the dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I always assumed that any one familar with dog training in any venue with increasing levels of exams/titles would never wait until they had obtained one level before beginning with the exercises of the next level. This certainly has been my own experience in AKC OB, Rally and Tracking as well as in the ScH arena as well. (and I consider myself really a beginner in all of them!)

Would you think that would be a good idea (or even a popular concept)?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> I always assumed that any one familar with dog training in any venue with increasing levels of exams/titles would never wait until they had obtained one level before beginning with the exercises of the next level. This certainly has been my own experience in AKC OB, Rally and Tracking as well as in the ScH arena as well. (and I consider myself really a beginner in all of them!)
> 
> Would you think that would be a good idea (or even a popular concept)?



I start training with ultimate goals from the beginning. When a dog is ready, we take the test or title leg. So while we may be training with healing for CD, we can take the CGC or RN before we are 100% there. I might train a sit for exam though I never intend to do Beginner Novice, and Stand for Exam before I go for an RN with a dog. But none of these are likely to make me even more liable for my dogs actions, nor are they likely to cause an issue with the earlier testing.

However, I trained Arwen the down on recall prior to the CD, and she no longer would rush front when I called her because she was expecting me to down her. She came, and still took first, but it was the fly to the front that is so flashy, I may have lost a few points for her hesitation. I will wait before doing that again. 

When I train in agility, I am careful with how much I do if the dog is still a puppy, and I definitely wait until the dog has a CGC. Agility ramps dogs up, and there is a lot of off lead going on with various dogs. There is one nasty little corgi that was trying to EAT Joy. I don't want my dogs acting like idiots when I am out there, so I want a level of training/management before subjecting other people's dogs who are at a more advanced level to my little delinquents.

And a lot of pet-geared training requires a CGC to get into the more advanced classes. It makes sense. These people already reached a level of training/management with their dogs, why should they be hindered with my dog cutting up and the trainer is spending time on us, because we are not there yet. 

The AKC/GSDCA has a temperament test, a TT, Perhaps the WDA could develop a temperament test for puppies to test them to see if it is a good idea to go forward with the puppy in protection sports.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I always assumed that any one familar with dog training in any venue with increasing levels of exams/titles would never wait until they had obtained one level before beginning with the exercises of the next level. This certainly has been my own experience in AKC OB, Rally and Tracking as well as in the ScH arena as well. (and I consider myself really a beginner in all of them!)
> 
> Would you think that would be a good idea (or even a popular concept)?


The general thought among IPO trainers is to always train for the 3. So we start out all of our dogs with that in mind. The obedience we work from day one is with the 3 obedience in mind, not the BH. The BH is a by product of the training, not the goal by any means. For some dogs it may be all the handler ever wants to do, but we still work them in the club like they will be progressing on. Most of the 3s we've owned were trained along with the 3 in mind from day one and then when you get out and start titling you generally burn through 1,2,3 in pretty quick succession.
If you understand the maturity level of each pup/dog and work it accordingly then starting out with the pup with bite work is not a problem, for the dog or the handler. Adjust the training to the situation. We had a 12 week old pup out at training tonight. He got to come on the field for obedience and work on some sits and downs for treats. Then at bite work time he got to go on the field and chase the sheepskin fuzzy toy and bite it and run around to cheers. So yes, this was obedience and bite work, but with the ultimate goal in mind with the work geared toward a clumsy puppy. 
I sure as heck don't want to wait until I've finished my BH to start any of the protection or tracking training. Think of all the fun play work I've missed along the way. Plus we use the obedience skills in bite work and we use the bite work to reward the obedience, so they work hand in hand for us.


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## lennoxbradley88 (Apr 23, 2012)

I know it can become frustrating. And, as a first time dog owner I made a dumb mistake, but I learned my lesson. Schatzi has her in home trainer and I am learning day in and day out on training, but unfortunately her trainer works for the humane and is out of our city and they only train dogs from their city. So, Schatzi was not able to attend. Anyways, I was in need of a trainer to help me deal with her in the outside world and not just at home. I found this "K9" trainer and he is good. But his method of training is not my favorite. He is more of an aggressive dog trainer type of guy. Schatzi is not aggressive and she is very friendly. However, she does get a little over excited with dogs around. Anyways I went and checked out his trainer class and it looked good. Spoke with him and everything was great. So I signed up and ended up paying $500. 

I showed up with my dog the following weekend and he brings out a choke chain! He didn't mention anything about that when we spoke anyways we went on. So he grabs my dog puts her on a choke chain gets the leash and says "Harness makes dogs pull on the leash. Don't use one." So he walks with Schatzi and once she got a little ahead he turns around and pulls her. It broke my heart when I saw that. Schatzi made a whining sound. I finished that class that day and never went back. I lost $500, but I rather lose that than break my dogs spirit. I would understand if she was aggressive and had lots of behavior issues but not her. Her main problem was distractions. 

Up to now I am still looking for another trainer I found one that I will call later on today. I just keep working with her in home trainer, read as many books as I can and watch as many of Michael Eliis dvds. 

This incident in a way was a good one because it made me realize how much I enjoy training my dog and I am no professional by any means, but by doing most of it on my own I have learn a lot.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

codmaster said:


> I always assumed that any one familar with dog training in any venue with increasing levels of exams/titles would never wait until they had obtained one level before beginning with the exercises of the next level. This certainly has been my own experience in AKC OB, Rally and Tracking as well as in the ScH arena as well. (and I consider myself really a beginner in all of them!)
> 
> Would you think that would be a good idea (or even a popular concept)?


I am assuming we'd treat dog training & testing in a similar fashion to horse training, which is what I know best.

I do dressage, and I was always told to show one level below what you are schooling at home. So if I am training 3rd level at home, I'd be showing at 2nd level.

I think it's entirely reasonable that a dog would be started in bitework and protection by the time they are ready for testing for their BH title. 

And to the OP, I am a pet parent who is hoping to try out schutzhund with my dog. It is a jungle out there, for sure, when you don't know what you're doing. 
We really rely on people to mentor and guide us. I've been lucky in the contacts I've developed just by poking around and developing a friendship with my pup's sire's owner who's taken me under her wing. 

We all start somewhere. I can appreciate that any dog trained in any type of protection can be a liability. On the flip side, I would imagine, even with the best of trainers, it can be hard to weed out those who are genuinely interested in the sport, vs. those who just want a tough dog to feed their ego.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

lennoxbradley88 said:


> I know it can become frustrating. And, as a first time dog owner I made a dumb mistake, but I learned my lesson. Schatzi has her in home trainer and I am learning day in and day out on training, but unfortunately her trainer works for the humane and is out of our city and they only train dogs from their city. So, Schatzi was not able to attend. Anyways, I was in need of a trainer to help me deal with her in the outside world and not just at home. I found this "K9" trainer and he is good. But his method of training is not my favorite. He is more of an aggressive dog trainer type of guy. Schatzi is not aggressive and she is very friendly. However, she does get a little over excited with dogs around. Anyways I went and checked out his trainer class and it looked good. Spoke with him and everything was great. So I signed up and ended up paying $500.
> 
> I showed up with my dog the following weekend and he brings out a choke chain! He didn't mention anything about that when we spoke anyways we went on. So he grabs my dog puts her on a choke chain gets the leash and says "Harness makes dogs pull on the leash. Don't use one." So he walks with Schatzi and once she got a little ahead he turns around and pulls her. It broke my heart when I saw that. Schatzi made a whining sound. I finished that class that day and never went back. I lost $500, but I rather lose that than break my dogs spirit. I would understand if she was aggressive and had lots of behavior issues but not her. Her main problem was distractions.
> 
> ...


Good for you to take your dog out of there. A front buckle harness doesn't encourage pulling - quite the opposite. The more I read threads like this, the more I'm thankful the nearest trainer is 200 miles away. I do like you - read, study, learn. I think of it like homeschooling - not for everyone, but for those of us who have to do it or want to - it can be a very rewarding learning experience.


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