# Could use some help with contacts!!!



## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I have a 2 on 2 off with Havoc but we are having some issues.


He likes to leap into position, this has gotten a little better (he used to take a leap from about half way down the A-frame, miss the contact, and try to land with his back feet in a 2o2o and if he missed with his back feet he just backs into position.) He now is slower, (not leaping as much)which isn't really what I am going for but he still is more or less jumping into position.
He really likes to curve into me, he is pretty sideways in the position. I can get forward focus which fixes this but also makes him much more likely to blow past the 2o2o and then back into it when I reinforce the "bottom" command.
I taught the 2o2o as a postion, as in he knows to back onto the contact and that the "postion" is back feet on the contact front feet on the ground. He is very clear on that part. I did use targets with food on them for a while to help create muscle memory to get into position, but as soon as there is a toy/sequence involved he doesn't care about the food/target. 

I tried to teach a nose touch along with the 2o2o but I train in a barn with loose, very dusty dirt and he will not do a proper nose touch in the barn. I really can't blame him! It's very dusty in there! So I have kind of abandoned that. 

Right now I have started to use a tug to reward the position. Once he is in position I move to the front and we tug in the 2o2o position. I am hoping that this will get a better weight transfer when he goes into a 2o2o, plus create more value for that position and prevent him from flying past it then backing into it. I have only done 3 sessions of this so far and it seems to be helping a bit (I know that it will take time) but I am open to any other suggestions! I can't figure out why we are having such a hard time with this! It's just a position! I have taught 4 other dogs beautiful 2o2o with no issues, but Havoc is special and of course has to make everything we do a challenge. He is just trying to make me the best dog trainer I can be


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just in case, have you looked here for ideas? ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/85976-training-contacts-agility.html

I know I no longer teach the nose touch, but instead click/reward when that second front foot hits the ground. It really does help to reward on the ground though cause it takes the handler focus/dog staring up at us away. Want the dog's initial focus to be on it's job and THEN the reward.

This may also be a place that turning to the front and rewarding on the contact with the toy is blurring the job for dog/reward cause there is a whole lot of you and WHOOHOO in the mix. Also adding that 'whole lot of you with your new movement/position/reward' that will NOT be happening at a trial. So you are going to have to later change everything YOU are doing while expecting the dog to do the same behavior.

I also used to work in the dirt and I know that's a big problem. Can you maybe get a strip of carpet (2' x 3' so not a 'target') and place that at the ends of the contacts? That way you can kind of go back to your initial training and BACKchain just doing the down sides of the contacts, click when the second front foot hits, and again reward by dropping the treat on the carpet. 

Then you can start changing your position (going back to reward) and later add the toy AFTER the release and away from you. Much as I love tugging, handler focus on the contacts isn't what we want until AFTER the dog is in position rather than the entire time they are on the obstacle.

Good luck.

Kristi, could you do us a favor and go up to the User CP (in the narrow black strip along the top) and put your GENERAL location in there? It will show up with every post (like my Pocono stuff) and maybe someone will then know the BEST CONTACT TRAINER IN THE WORLD that just happens to live in your area!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks, MRL! I didn't really think about the handler focus thing when introducing the tugging on the contact. I am normally very aware of that and either place rewards after obstacles or throw them. My reasoning behind the tugging was trying to get him to shift his weight back in anticipation of tugging but I think that I am probably going to get too much focus on me in doing this. I think for the dog walk I am going to back to targeting for a bit and then maybe try a piece of carpet so that I can drop food for him. 

For the A-frame I am just really worried about the amount of impact this is going to have on his front over time. He really launches himself into position on the A-frame, I just can't figure out how to stop that. I am thinking of possibly making him down on the A-Frame contact to keep him from launching? I feel like I am trying so many different things now though that I am really confusing him! I might just leave it alone for a while until I figure out a better solution.

Any one have any reading material or a sound method of teaching a running A-frame? I hate to go to that but want to consider all my options.

I have read the contact sticky a couple of times

I added my location too


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Don't know if this will help with your Aframe, but when I was doing agility with my gsd, I did running contacts, but also taught a 'touch' so I had my choice on which to use and the dog seemed to know the difference. 

The reasoning behind 'my' running contacts was, I had a long legged, long bodied dog, and combine that with weight and speed, the Aframe was an obstacle she seemed to prefer to bail on at times maybe not on purpose but because of body structure/weight/speed. The thing I found, (and was pointed out by my trainer) that I had lousy body position when doing that aframe, I tended to babysit it to much, lean forward, thus pulling her to bail, found that standing straight and "leaning back" for whatever reason, no matter where I was, cued her to go up/down hit contact/stop if I said so/continue on if I said so..

The one reason I never liked 2o2o especially on aframe/dogwalk, (since it seems one transfers to the other), was because I was seeing what your seeing, to many dogs, self correcting/backing up and they became so 'used' to it, it was kind of like a learned behavior..

Have you tried "hoops" on your down on the dogwalk? Might help as well, and still keep your 2o2o.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Ah hoops!!! Thanks Jakoda CD OA! I don't know why I didn't think of that, I could use the hoops with a target to get some muscle memory going and so that I can reward the correct action (not launching) instead of continuously rewarding him when he launches cause technically he is performing a 2o2o. Good stuff thanks for the suggestion!

Good point on the body position as well, I have honestly not thought about that at all. I will be more conscious of what I am doing, I could very well be encouraging a launch into 2o2o.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'd really try to also go back to the 'back chaining' and stop doing the entire obstacle for awhile. This is actually easiest on the aframe. No longer allow the full run to go up and over and slam down and off. You can ever lower the darn thing for awhile.

I'd just have him go up the aframe and then TURN AROUND to come back down and 'assume the position'. The mere fact he's turning around will slow everything down. This also will strengthen him up, give rear end awareness, and allow him to again think when coming down for his contact behavior. 

IF you decide to keep up with some type of 2on/2off I know another huge issue that crops up with most of our dogs that are excited and WHOOHOO is our fault (go figure  ). It's the fact that though we THINK we are releasing them with our 'ok' or whatever word...... chances are almost 100% of the time we are also at exactly the same time doing some VISUAL cue (like also moving on). 

This means though we SAY we have a verbal cue, and say our dog is releasing on that verbal cue. SInce our dogs take visual cues first, then verbal, what THE DOG is releasing on is our movement. 

And at trials we are more excited, payiing less attention, and really mess up these verbal/motion cues. 

So you may want to really look at your cues while going thru this training. Really have someone watch or take video (cause I always SWEAR I am not moving, but the onlookers seem to disagree when my contacts are breaking down). Stand like a statue, just give the verbal, and see what happens.

Vice versa, MOVE like you are going on with NO verbal and see what happens.

Try throwing a front cross in at the down part of the contact 100% of the time and find out how often you are getting knocked down by your dog coming off.

Can't expect a good contact at a trial if you aren't 100% at classes and the yard. I STILL can have sloppy contacts from Bretta and we've been doing this for 7 years now! It's one of the reason I 'like' when we NQ early in standard at a trial cause I then go immediately into training mode, at a trial, and put in all those front crosses (sometimes even crossing back  ) and testing the contacts... Hey, it's training in the ring that I get away with...

Good luck though. Try to get a mental picture of what you want, and then pick a method clear to your dog that you can work on. If you throw too much at him too fast at the same time you may just muddy everything more. So I'd kind of pretend he was a 6 month old puppy who's learning for the first time and break it down to make it that EASY for him to do it right and get a reward.

*So lower the equipment, slow it all down, make him 'right' 100% in whatever way you decide to start fixing this. And only add the speed and height as he shows he's starting to click with what YOU are trying to teach. Avoid the frustration for both of you by making it easy and CLEAR.*


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Most of the contact work we do is backchaining. I didn't start doing full equipment with him until a couple of months ago. So we did like almost a full year of backchaining! Most of the time I just train on a plank with one end on a low table. I know I can't lower the dog walk where I train and I'm fairly certain that I can't lower the A-frame either I do think that I am going to completely eliminate the backing into a 2o2o. I got into the really bad habit of allowing him to correct himself that way and now he seems to think that's an acceptable way of performing the obstacle. 

I will definitely start doing more turnig around half way up the frame them going into a 2o2o. This is how I will introduce the hoop too, so that it's clear he needs to go under the hoop. I can definitely see him trying to jump over the hoop lol. I have been doing lots of proofing of the position as well and this has helped a lot! 

I have gotten pretty good at pretending he is a 6 month old puppy lol He is chewing on my shoe this very moment with an "I'm just a puppy and don't know any better" look on his face.


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