# Critique my critique



## GSD Fan

I have been reading and watching a lot of books and videos about dog standards and conformation. I would like to see how much I've improved, so, I would like for someone to post a pic of a stacked GSD and let me critique him or her. Then I would appreciate it if someone came along and told me the high points and low points of my critique.

If no one replies, I'll just do it with my mentors. Thank you for your time in advance.


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## Xeph

*shrugs* I'll play.


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## GSD Fan

Okay, here goes nothing!

This is according to AKC standards.

Nice musculine head, decent eyes, the neck is long but could use a bit more muscle. Looks like there's a kinda roach in the back? The stomach . . . there's something odd about it, can't put it into words. The loin is too short. Tail seems correct. Shoulder blades are decent. Overal muscle is good. 

That critique was horrible.


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## 4TheDawgies

Alright ill give it a go with my three 

9 months


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## Xeph

Well, firstly I can promise her head isn't masculine ;-) In my opinion, she has a weak head (that's right, I can admit that her head ain't great). The problem isn't so much her skull (which would be easier to see in person). Her muzzle is weak. Too narrow and needs more underjaw.

Her neck is relatively long, it is well muscled, but I could certainly see how it may not give that impression.

Definitely no roach in her back  A roach indicates an upward curvature of the spine, which Mirada doesn't have. Can't help you on the stomach (I'm assuming you mean her underline). And her loin isn't too short. The opposite actually. She's too long.
With her stomach, what you may be looking at is the pattern of her coat, rather than the actual structure of the dog. You need to learn to look PAST patterns (which can be hard).

To help you more:
decent eyes <--What does this mean? Do you mean size, shape, depth of color?
Tail seems correct <--The set or the length?

Shoulder blades are decent <--How so? Do they look correctly angulated to you? 

How is her upper arm? Too long? Too short? Steep/too upright? (for the record, fronts are VERY hard to learn for the majority of people, and you'll usually learn to "see" a front in motion before you see it on a standing dog)

Overal muscle is good. <--Thanks  We work har on conditioning.

That critique was horrible<--Maybe not the best critique, but the point is you're trying to learn. You're not going to get it all on your first shot. It takes a lot of time to learn how to see structure, and how to apply your knowledge of it.


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## elisabeth_00117

What the heck, Stark says, "critique away":

*Not the best stacks, I know.


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## GSDElsa

I commend you for giving this a try! Only way to really learn!


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## selzer

Here is Odessa:


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## GSD Fan

Xeph said:


> Well, firstly I can promise her head isn't masculine ;-) In my opinion, she has a weak head (that's right, I can admit that her head ain't great). The problem isn't so much her skull (which would be easier to see in person). Her muzzle is weak. Too narrow and needs more underjaw.
> 
> Her neck is relatively long, it is well muscled, but I could certainly see how it may not give that impression.
> 
> Definitely no roach in her back  A roach indicates an upward curvature of the spine, which Mirada doesn't have. Can't help you on the stomach (I'm assuming you mean her underline). And her loin isn't too short. The opposite actually. She's too long.
> With her stomach, what you may be looking at is the pattern of her coat, rather than the actual structure of the dog. You need to learn to look PAST patterns (which can be hard).
> 
> To help you more:
> decent eyes <--What does this mean? Do you mean size, shape, depth of color?
> Tail seems correct <--The set or the length?
> 
> Shoulder blades are decent <--How so? Do they look correctly angulated to you?
> 
> How is her upper arm? Too long? Too short? Steep/too upright? (for the record, fronts are VERY hard to learn for the majority of people, and you'll usually learn to "see" a front in motion before you see it on a standing dog)
> 
> Overal muscle is good. <--Thanks  We work har on conditioning.
> 
> That critique was horrible<--Maybe not the best critique, but the point is you're trying to learn. You're not going to get it all on your first shot. It takes a lot of time to learn how to see structure, and how to apply your knowledge of it.


Wait a minute, I thought a roach is when the spinal bones change direction a certain way? 

On eyes, yes, I think all is correct.

On the tail, I meant the set. Length seems okay too.

Yes, shoulder blades look correct.


I think her upper arm is too long.


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## GSDElsa

Here is a roached back:
Google Image Result for http://www.whynotwebs.com/images/SuperAngleGermanShepherd.JPG


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## Xeph

> I think her upper arm is too long.


It's actually too short ^_^

Wait a minute, I thought a roach is when the spinal bones change direction a certain way? <--The bones will create a sort of "s" shape in a true roach, but when referring to GSDs, most people will refer to the upward curvature of the spine as a roach as well. Either way, Mirada doesn't have one xD

Here's an example of a typical roach. There's a dip behind the withers, then the spine raises again, and then drops to the croup


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## GSD Fan

4TheDawgies said:


> Alright ill give it a go with my three
> 
> 9 months


Okay, I am doing this according to AKC standards.

Here we go!

1st dog:

This dog is longer than tall, muzzle is a little broad, very nice eyes in shape and color, nice neck though muscle seems loose, back is nice and straight, loin is nice in distance, nice straight line from croup to hock, overall a beautiful dog with overall good structure, although hocks seem out of line.

I'll do the next two in just a sec.

Edit:
I gotta get offline. I'll do some more tomorrow. Thank you guys for your help, I really appreciate it!


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## Xeph

Even though you're off for the night, when you come back tomorrow, something that has helped me with giving critiques is to look at the dog in sections.

I always start at the front of the dog, and work my way back. Literally looking from head to tail. Whenever I critique, if I find something negative about one area in a section, I try to compliment another area in that same section.

For example, with 4thedawgies sable male, looking at the head:
Ears are a bit large for my taste, but the set is excellent, which keeps the ears from detracting from the head. The head is masculine without being coarse, with a strong muzzle to keep up with the noble appearance.

Critiques are about balance, just like with the breeding of dogs.


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## 4TheDawgies

Xeph said:


> For example, with 4thedawgies sable male, looking at the head:
> Ears are a bit large for my taste, but the set is excellent, which keeps the ears from detracting from the head. T*he head is masculine without being coarse*, with a strong muzzle to keep up with the noble appearance.
> 
> Critiques are about balance, just like with the breeding of dogs.


I agree thats a great way to do critiques to not only keep it constructive but keep from offending someone sensitive. 


Question Xeph about the bold above 
What would "coarse" in a head look like? I've never heard of that description before. Thank you in advance


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## Xeph

4thedawgies, a coarse head is a head that is "too much" usually. I personally find a head like Alk von Osterburg Quell's head very coarse. He seems to throw that same head, and many of his female offspring could be easily mistaken for males (IMO).


> I agree thats a great way to do critiques to not only keep it constructive but keep from offending someone sensitive.


I think the last part is something important to remember (I appreciate the compliment btw). Not everybody is as into critiques and structure as some of us on the board, but they still want to learn. However, it can be easy to hurt feelings, so how you present the negative aspects of a dog (because every dog has them) needs to be done tactfully.


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## 4TheDawgies

Xeph said:


> 4thedawgies, a coarse head is a head that is "too much" usually. I personally find a head like Alk von Osterburg Quell's head very coarse. He seems to throw that same head, and many of his female offspring could be easily mistaken for males (IMO).
> 
> I think the last part is something important to remember (I appreciate the compliment btw). Not everybody is as into critiques and structure as some of us on the board, but they still want to learn. However, it can be easy to hurt feelings, so how you present the negative aspects of a dog (because every dog has them) needs to be done tactfully.


I see exactly what you mean about coarse now. And yes some of his females have some very male like heads as well. 

Xeph you seem very knowledgeable about critiques, I appreciate you coming and helping out in this thread. I would love to hear full critiques of my dogs when you have the time, either in PM or after the OP makes their critiques.

I too am learning about how to evaluate and put the standard to dogs in real life myself. So this thread is very interesting to me I am enjoying it.


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## WarrantsWifey

Xeph said:


> That critique was horrible<--Maybe not the best critique, but the point is you're trying to learn. You're not going to get it all on your first shot. It takes a lot of time to learn how to see structure, and how to apply your knowledge of it.


I'm so glad you were nice about it. I was worried this thread might not end well.... <3 I love that your genuinely trying to help. Thank you!


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## Castlemaid

Xeph, would you say that in the picture that you posted of your girl, she has weak pasterns? How about the picture of Stark that Elisabeth posted? Down in the pasterns? 

In _very general_ it seems to me that the pasterns of the show-line dogs I see are more angled than the working line dogs I see - but I'm not sure what would be the correct angle - would a straighter pastern than what these two example above show be too upright?


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## Xeph

> I was worried this thread might not end well


I am a young person....25. I've been in the breed for *thinks* 11-12 years now, and have hit a lot of road bumps, had my struggles. Shepherds can be very very hard to get into (even if you want "just a pet").

The dog that I learned most of my structure off of? My $250 BYB dog that just celebrated his 7th birthday.

I am nowhere near as knowledgeable as some of the people on this board. I will admit that I will refrain from commenting in depth on fronts sometimes, because I still have trouble seeing them sometimes (I can see them in motion and feel them, but pictures still get me sometimes), but I do try my best.

I remember what it was like to be new, and I had strong opinions (still do, and don't regret them), and so I could be frustrating....but was also frustrated myself. I am actually a pretty sensitive person when it comes to my own dogs (particularly Strauss), and I keep my own sensitivity in mind when I critique somebody else's dog. They love their dog just as much as I love my crew, and I think you can be factual and teach while being kind and taking the feelings of others into consideration.

I enjoy seeing critiques from Lisa a lot for that reason  She's factual and can also state how something about a dog isn't her preference per se, but it's not incorrect, and so information is given without being harsh.

How do you learn if you don't try? If you don't ask?


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## krisk

This is very good practice, good for you giving it a try...keep going. Here are some from me.



















and another


















And one more









krisk


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## Xeph

> Xeph, would you say that in the picture that you posted of your girl, she has weak pasterns?


Mirada has weak pasterns (and they drive me batty). I think Stark's pasterns are perfect. I would consider the pasterns of 4Dawgies white dog to be too upright.

For dogs with beautiful pasterns I like to cite Paska Salztalblick and Bomber Wolfsheim.

For American dogs, Mirada's mother actually has really nice pasterns. Rohan's Glass Palace looked to have nice pasterns as well.


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## KZoppa

i am looking for pictures you could possibly critique! i'll continue looking. i'm learning as well.


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## Zeusismydog

Actually this is a great learning thread. They are trying to find the faults of each dog, and when you post your pic that is what you are signing up for. The OP wanted to know if she was cretiquing the dogs right. So in this light I will post 
Zeus. Tell me he is perfect


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## KZoppa

i'm sorry. This is the best one i have right now of Shasta. She makes it kinda tough to get pictures in general... lol


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## BRITTani

I'll join in...its HARD getting a good shot of a 5 month old puppy by yourself!
I got a few


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## BRITTani

I welcome anyone who wants to critique my dog to either PM me or post on here, I promise you wont hurt my feelings and I'd love to hear what you have to say.


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## GSD Fan

elisabeth_00117 said:


> What the heck, Stark says, "critique away":
> 
> *Not the best stacks, I know.


Definitely a male.

Nice powerful head. Nice and good ears. Eyes look a little off. Neck is good. Really like the chest and stomach, chest is broad and stomach kept to the body. Front assembly is good. Back is straight. Ribs are too narrow?
Tail is good. 

I know I missed some parts, but I'm tired. It's a little late, going to hit the sack after this.


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## Whiteshepherds

I'm off to find some pictures to post for you too!


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## Jessiewessie99

Enjoy all the pretty dogs that are being posted.

You are learning and that is awesome! I will join in. They aren't the best pictures, but thats ok:

Molly is self stacking here(bad angle I know):









Here are some attempted stacks of Molly I did(Yes I know they are horrible):


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## robinhuerta

FWIW........going slightly off topic....

We have been invited to _teach/train/handle_ a Conformation Seminar for a well established working Schutzhund club here in Illinois.
It will be a "hands on" seminar for ALL GSD. The club is encouraging WL & SL owners to attend. Dogs will be evaluated and we will offer assistance in helping owners prepare their dogs for their Conformation ratings for Korr classes.
This should be a great event and a fun time for all!
I will post more info as it becomes available.....and is confirmed & finalized.
*At this time...it is still in the making*.
BTW...the club is Indian Creek (Marengo, Illinois).

sorry to hijack.....I'm done.


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## Helios

I'm really enjoying this thread too 
Here you have 2 pics of Helios if you want to critique him.

















The first is one is supposedly a free stack and the 2nd one is well...not that good. I wanted to post it so you could see his coat (?) taken from a different angle since it doesn't seem to appear quite good in the first one.


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## Zeusismydog

Helios said:


> I'm really enjoying this thread too
> Here you have 2 pics of Helios if you want to critique him.
> 
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> 
> The first is one is supposedly a free stack and the 2nd one is well...not that good. I wanted to post it so you could see his coat (?) taken from a different angle since it doesn't seem to appear quite good in the first one.


Looks like he has a big paw print on his hip  Sorry my critque is useless as all I can say is a good looking dog


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## Helios

Zeusismydog said:


> Looks like he has a big paw print on his hip  Sorry my critque is useless as all I can say is a good looking dog


LOL! Thanks .


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## Whiteshepherds

First picture-he's trying to see what's on the counter. We call it the "I can smell chicken" stack. 










Second picture. Better shot of his front legs, face and head. 









His eyes are very dark. You can't really tell in the picture but he has snow nose. (pigment fades in the winter) It's starting to darken up again as the days get longer. 

Have fun and be brutally honest. We'll still keep him. 

He turned 4 today!


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## GermanShepherds6800

** removed by Admin**


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## GermanShepherds6800

** removed by Admin**


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## Good_Karma

We all start out in life stupid.  And the older I get, the more I realize I don't know. I hope, GSDFan, that you are still enjoying this thread (you are so brave for starting it). When you run out of dogs to critique, I'll post Niko pics. Just wish I knew a single thing about stacking properly.


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## elisabeth_00117

GSD Fan said:


> Definitely a male.
> 
> Nice powerful head. Nice and good ears. Eyes look a little off. Neck is good. Really like the chest and stomach, chest is broad and stomach kept to the body. Front assembly is good. Back is straight. Ribs are too narrow?
> Tail is good.
> 
> I know I missed some parts, but I'm tired. It's a little late, going to hit the sack after this.


Hahaha.. I get the "definitely a male" comment all the time. No mistakening Stark for a female with that big old head of his... lol.

Not too sure about the eye comment? How do you think they are off? Curious.

Anyways, the ribs or back end being too narrow is because he is just going through a growth spurt (just turned 2) and he is starting to fill out.. chest has dropped and expanded (majorly!) and his back end has yet to catch up yet.. LMAO.. he does look unbalanced at this point though I agree.

Another thing that he would be faulted for his his easty-westy front (when the front legs/paws turn outward when facing straight which has improved with the dropping of his chest but is still present, and he is cow hocked in the back (back legs touch and go inward a bit when standing). I also think he has a weak back end, not in power per say but in looks - this could be from his showline side (mother) though because no matter how many muscle building exercises we do, it remains quite the same. 

I am really liking this thread though, great idea!


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## GSD Fan

By the way, happy easter everyone! 

Elizabeth, I say the eyes are off because they seem more round than oblique.


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## Xeph

> Elizabeth, I say the eyes are off because they seem more round than oblique.


Something I'd suggest, when you're doing your critiques, is if you see something that you feel is "off", try and continue to describe it.

For example, instead of saying the eyes are correct, try to go a bit more in depth. Like "Nice dark eye, a bit large, but of correct shape" (please note that this is not in relation to any particular dog).


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## GSD Fan

selzer said:


> Here is Odessa:


 
Okay.

Muzzle is too broad and not long enough. Eyes are round, not oblique. I think the ears are too small in length. The neck is fine, with good muscle. Elbow-to-chest chest-to-withers is off and not equal in length. Front legs okay, but there's something off about the feet. Underline and stomach is good. Back and ribs are good. Tail is good. I would like to say the hocks are too high according to proportioin, but I can't get a desired view. 

By the way, if anyone would like to critique the dogs stacked in this thread, go ahead!

4Dogs, I didn't do your white and silver dogs because someone had already said something about them. I hope you don't mind.


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## robinhuerta

Would anyone mind if "I" gave a critique on Odessa???


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## elisabeth_00117

I would love to hear critiques from everyone! 

Pst.. Robin, if you want to give one on Stark too that would be greatly appreciated.


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## Whiteshepherds

I'll take critiques from anyone too, as long as GSD Fan takes a shot at them first.


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## robinhuerta

Ok...cool! 
Lets start....
I see: An over medium size, strong, somewhat stretched female.
She has a very strong head, very good mask with wide set ears. (from the head shot pic).
Very good angulation in front and rear. Very good wither, with a good position of shoulder blade. A very good angle of upperarm that should be longer.
She has a short, steep croup.
*I cannot honestly comment on movement or if she is straight in front, because the pictures do not/can not allow so*.

OK...that's it....don't be offended...it is what *I* see.
BTW....I really like the female!


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## CaseysGSD

Wanna try a puppy?
3 month old male free stack


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## holland

This is really a neat thread -and it helps when people use the terms for what they see-going to read it all the way through when I get a chance-thanks for starting it


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## GSD Fan

So how good or bad was my critique of Odessa?


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## robinhuerta

GSD fan.....a critique is neither good or bad ...honestly.
It is an "opinion" of one person's interpretation of a breed standard or personal preference in a specific type or look.

We all *see* things differently....and we learn by studying, listening, watching and *applying*.
Keep doing what you're doing, you have the desire.....you will learn much!!
JMO


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## robinhuerta

BTW...Sue
I would love to see the Korr report (breed survey) on Odessa...
If you find time, and don't mind...could you post it?
Also interested in which Korrmeister.


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## Whiteshepherds

Quick question for anyone who knows.

I was reading the AKC and SV standards and they're worded differently. Obviously when we look at all the different types of GSD's there are obvious differences-head, pasterns, top line.....

So do you critique a dog like Odessa, because she's an import, using the SV standard rather than the AKC one?


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## robinhuerta

I apply what I've learned from the SV GSD standard......although BOTH should be the same standard, albeit the "wording" can sometimes be described differently.
There should not be 2 different standards....it is the same dog/breed.


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## KZoppa

i think this a great thread. i'm excited to see more.


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## GSD Fan

I just wanted to say thank you to the members who helped with this thread. 

I think I have improved. I mean, I now know what "hocks", "roach", and etc mean. I think if I keep working, I'll get to where I want to be before getting my foundation female for my kennel.

You guys are going to be so mad at me, but I'm going to see if I am show siberian husky breeding material. Right now, I am being mentored and learning. I am trying to absorb as much as possible. Like last night, I learned the truth behind titles and why titles, in some cases, are not 100% required to breed a dog. 

You're going to be mad at me because I am not going into german shepherds. Don't get me wrong, I love the breed, but I feel like it would benefit this area and the dog world better if I went into siberian huskies. You can find ethical GSD breeders around here, but very, very few siberian husky breeders. I love both breeds, but just choose siberian huskies over them.

You're probably wondering what is the purpose of this thread. The purpose is : 1) Get a grasp of conformation and it's terms and etc, 2) Learn to critique dogs, to see what the judges see.

I found this to be the best forum this, because of the whole community here. I find this place a reliable place to learn without having my head chomped off.

Okay, let's get back on track. Enough off tracking.


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## KZoppa

well learning is learning and may as well learn about something you love no matter what breed.


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## idahospud49

I think it is great that you are learning as much as you possibly can! Just because you are going with another breed doesn't mean there aren't many things to learn here. I know next to nothing about standards and all, but I am enjoying reading what everyone has to say in this thread!


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## robinhuerta

Congrats!
Good, reliable breeders of ALL breeds are needed!
Best wishes!


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## Xeph

What you learn in one breed can transfer over to all others in various ways  You learn how to see shoulders, toplines, croups, etc. Even though the proportions are angles called for in Sibes is different from GSDs, learning to see them on one can actually make it easier to see them on another


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## selzer

robinhuerta said:


> Would anyone mind if "I" gave a critique on Odessa???


Yes, please do.


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## selzer

Robin, thanks for the critique. I will have to scan the Koer report and it is mostly in German. I do not have it translated. But I will try to do so in the next few days and send you a PM.

GSDFan, I think that you are paying good attention to different aspects. Thanks for the critique.

I do not agree with everything, but then I am totally biased to my dog, and not a good judge of her. This is why it is so important for people to get an outside, unbiased opinion about their dogs. 

I am surprised no one mentioned pasterns on her because I feel that they look a little weak in the photo. 

I like her fore and aft, angulation. 

I like her top line. 

I think her head is a little masculine, ears a little large and wide set but balanced with her head and not detracting from it. 

I never noticed her eyes being more round, maybe the photos, maybe true -- I will go look at her again. 

The photos, in grass do not really show how good or bad her feet are, they do not look very compact, but might look better if stacked. 

I think the depth of the chest is good. 

Thanks for the critiques. 

I have no idea what is going on with the other boards, but I cannot believe there is anything in this thread to rag on you about. 

And as for going into huskies. It is a good and smart move if you are interested in showing dogs. GSDs are so popular that even if you buy one from a great show kennel, it will be hard to get major points and such if you are not well known or a conformation judge, where a dog that is more in the middle in terms of popularity is still not unobtainable, and can usually have enough dogs for points. But not so many that it makes it difficult to ever get your major. 

Good luck.


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## Germanshepherdlova

selzer said:


> Here is Odessa:


I am not going to critique your dog, just want to say that Odessa is beautiful!


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## robinhuerta

Sue....if something is "not" mentioned, many times it is because it is normal or acceptable....like her pasterns.
I did forget to comment on her top & bottom lines.....BTW....they too are fine!
As for her head type.....I like a stronger head on females....so I like hers!
The depth of chest is ok at this point....but she should not get deeper.
She has nice short hocks....again, something I personally like.
Her eyes look "normal" shaped, and dark in color (from the pic)...so I just omitted from previously commenting.
I can do "in depth" critiques...but mostly, I just do a generic version. LOL!
*I'm NO JUDGE...and I don't pretend to play one either!!!....so my critiques are just based on my interpretation of the standard, and the years I've been doing this, along with the guidance of my husband.


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## CShellenberger

** removed by Admin**


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## carmspack

GSDfan you keep on learning . Do not ever let anyone dissuade you .

I read each and every post to make sure that this has not been already recommended.

Go to the pedigree data base and enter any dog - Onex Grenzhof for example just because the name sprung to mind so here he is V Onex vom Grenzhof - German shepherd dog

The critique will appear albeit in German so that may be no help to you whatsoever, but maybe some members of the forum will assist with the translation of some key , current, important dogs. His translated critique would be ' large, medium strong, normal whither, strong back, short croup, normal angulation front and rear (balanced) , normal chest proportions , correct front , moves true, good movement, good ground covering movement, nerves secure , hardness and fighting drive pronounced. does out 
For Sale - SUPER QUANTUM SON FOR SALE | Pets | Pet Owner | Other | Hong Kong | Very,Sehr,Gerade,German,Normal,?,Front,Good,Hinterhand,Born,Sire,Kruppe,Hk$10,Owner,Import,Comment,???????????,Following,Powerful,Winkelung??

To keep the lessons balanced here is Neptun Bad Boll VA8 Neptun von Bad-Boll - German shepherd dog

and a lineup of translations of his critique for you to compare notes with User submitted comments about VA8 Neptun von Bad-Boll - German shepherd dog

and including a popular working line male Javir Talka Marda V (BSZS) Javir vom Talka Marda - German shepherd dog
Here is another one with a translation provided. 

I am privileged to have Ms Betty McHugh well respected obedience judge and breeder of great little dachshund live less than a 5 minute drive from my house. I have attended many of her measurements sessions where she applied virtual architectural measurements of the angles of the dogs and explained what little changes meant as far as movement dynamics. Dogs In Canada Magazine -- Casey Gardiner and the school of canine science

When you match your assessment against that of an experts it helps you understand what it is that you and they are seeing.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GermanShepherds6800

** removed by Admin **


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Critique My Critique*

New thread - same idea. Stay on topic. Someone may be able to edit the old one or not. I am posting from phone on Easter Sunday. No further nonsense or telling of sides will be tolerated. There is no interest in that - please carry on with the critiques and new members please read the board rules. Thank you. 
Jean
Admin


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## KZoppa

did the other thread get closed?


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## carmspack

ack I spent a lot of time putting together helpful links.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robinhuerta

Is it not possible to delete individual posts, rather than deleteing an entire thread??
It was a good thread with lots of helpful info.....


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## KZoppa

thats okay carmen. much appreciated! sorry i missed the links! sorry to have missed the rest of what happened! wow! Anyway.... i'm still trying to get decent pictures of the dogs.... lol


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## GSDElsa

Yeah, sure a lot of threads get deleted around here lately. I agree amongst the nonsense (that I also had a hand in), there was a lot of good info and a lot of people were putting in a good effort.


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## BRITTani

I guess I'll resubmit


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## Castlemaid

> ack I spent a lot of time putting together helpful links.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


(Here you go, as posted originally by Carmspack):

Go to the pedigree data base and enter any dog - Onex Grenzhof for example just because the name sprung to mind so here he is V Onex vom Grenzhof - German shepherd dog

The critique will appear albeit in German so that may be no help to you whatsoever, but maybe some members of the forum will assist with the translation of some key , current, important dogs. His translated critique would be ' large, medium strong, normal whither, strong back, short croup, normal angulation front and rear (balanced) , normal chest proportions , correct front , moves true, good movement, good ground covering movement, nerves secure , hardness and fighting drive pronounced. does out 
For Sale - SUPER QUANTUM SON FOR SALE | Pets | Pet Owner | Other | Hong Kong | Very,Sehr,Gerade,German,Normal,?,Front,Good,Hinterhand,Born,Sire,Kruppe,Hk$10,Owner,Import,Comment,???????????,Following,Powerful,Winkelung??

To keep the lessons balanced here is Neptun Bad Boll VA8 Neptun von Bad-Boll - German shepherd dog

and a lineup of translations of his critique for you to compare notes with User submitted comments about VA8 Neptun von Bad-Boll - German shepherd dog

and including a popular working line male Javir Talka Marda V (BSZS) Javir vom Talka Marda - German shepherd dog
Here is another one with a translation provided. 

I am privileged to have Ms Betty McHugh well respected obedience judge and breeder of great little dachshund live less than a 5 minute drive from my house. I have attended many of her measurements sessions where she applied virtual architectural measurements of the angles of the dogs and explained what little changes meant as far as movement dynamics. Dogs In Canada Magazine -- Casey Gardiner and the school of canine science

When you match your assessment against that of an experts it helps you understand what it is that you and they are seeing.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs[/QUOTE]


----------



## KZoppa

okay i am horrible at stacking and the dogs arent so great at it either but here ya go. Shasta is first along with a side profile since she makes it tough in the stack. 




















and here is Riley. Though he's a GSD/Border collie mix, you can still critique him. he's even worse at a stack lol.


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## KZoppa

anyone?


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## robinhuerta

Here is an idea to help with "stacking".
DON'T stack.......especially if the dog is not in cooperation with you.
Put the dog on a 8ft or longer leash, tie the end of the leash to something...then walk forward away from your dog. Call your dog...or do something to get it to come to the end of the leash and stay there looking attentively at you.....then have someone take the picture from the side profile.
Don't worry about placing feet here or there.....just a decent side view is all thats needed.
We can't fairly give any critique if we can't see the entire side view of the dog.


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## KZoppa




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## Liesje

I agree with Robin. It's difficult, if not plain unfair, to critique a dog not stacked properly.

I do most of mine by myself. I got a remote for my camera (about $14 and I got the name brand one). I setup the camera first. Make sure it is perpendicular to the dog and at the level of the dog. I set it on a chair or something like that. You can also use a 10 second timer on the camera but then you have, well, 10 seconds to stack your dog! Then, with a toy or treat in my hand, I walk my dog into a stack. I find this results in a more natural stack and is more agreeable for the dog (don't want the dog slouching, ears flat, etc). I toss the toy or treat out in front of the dog, slightly toward the direction of the camera, then quickly fix the placement of the rear legs if needed, and use the remote to snap the pic. If the dog will stay, I move out of the picture and keep snapping.

These are ones I've done that way (and Nikon has always been a difficult dog to stack, he often slouches and "bridges" so his front looks bad). Not perfect but easier to critique I think.


















Pan is easier for me to stack but doesn't "stay" in that position yet









Sometimes I cheat and remove myself (if I am distracting)


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## KZoppa

i have to have my husband take the pictures otherwise they just flop around like crazy dogs lol.


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## Whiteshepherds

Trying again, added different pics. I appreciate anything you have to offer, understand if it's too hard to do because of bad positioning.

1st picture. Harley is trying to see what's on the counter. Is he leaning too far forward?










2nd picture - Better shot of his head/face and chest but makes him look really long.


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## Whiteshepherds

Liesje said:


> These are ones I've done that way (and Nikon has always been a difficult dog to stack, he often slouches and "bridges" so his front looks bad). Not perfect but easier to critique I think.


 
Can you please explain what you mean when you say he bridges?


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## Xeph

> Can you please explain what you mean when you say he bridges?


I've always referred to it (and heard it referred to) as "posting". It means the dog's legs are not straight underneath him, but that the dog is leaning away from the stack a bit, so the fore legs look like \ instead of |

Posting:


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## Rei

I'll play 




























Old picture, from several months ago


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## krisk

Connor is bad for bridging too, if there isn't something interesting to get his attention....forget it. And usually I stack & take his photo.

Connor



























Kenna, with her I need someone else to take the shot.



























Cali, we are still learning to hold it. So you need to be right there.


















Kris (Old girl), would also hold her stack and allow me to pose and shot (I would just have to find photos to scan as this was before the digital camera age).


















krisk


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## Good_Karma

robinhuerta said:


> Here is an idea to help with "stacking".
> DON'T stack.......especially if the dog is not in cooperation with you.
> Put the dog on a 8ft or longer leash, tie the end of the leash to something...then walk forward away from your dog. Call your dog...or do something to get it to come to the end of the leash and stay there looking attentively at you.....then have someone take the picture from the side profile.
> Don't worry about placing feet here or there.....just a decent side view is all thats needed.
> We can't fairly give any critique if we can't see the entire side view of the dog.


Thanks for the tip! I was thinking how it would be particularly hard for a newbie to judge a dog who wasn't stacked well. 

Dumb question, is the GSD the only breed that is stacked the way it is? In other breed shows do they stack the dogs the same way?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

1. After removing this thread and posting this as its new title:
_Critique my critique will return after edits_ 

2. And explaining why and what in the first post of the thread I started 

(felt I needed to highlight that this was done - it seems people did not see this info and got their feathers ruffled)

Here is the heavily redacted thread. I took the time to remove and take out anything off topic so there are lots of edits. It does not mean you posted something bad or inappropriate, just that it was off topic. This can be the last off topic post on this critique thread. Have fun. 

You're welcome.
Jean
Admin


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## robinhuerta

Thanks Mods!
I will try to give "my" critiques when I get home form work today.....although it will be pretty late, I get home around 8:30pm. Hope others will post critiques today as well. It's more educational when others participate....and it's more fun!
Have a nice day! Pretty dogs!


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## Liesje

Whiteshepherds said:


> Can you please explain what you mean when you say he bridges?


It means his front is not correctly positioned, sometimes it can make it look worse than it is.

Here he is, standing naturally. He is not "stacked" (the rear is not set correctly), but you can see the front is natural, the legs are pulled under and basically perpendicular to the ground. 










When I "hand stack" him (try to place his feet myself), he tends to slouch and push back rather than lean forward, so the front legs slant forward rather than being properly set under him. It can make his shoulder, wither, or whole front just look bad (not saying it's perfect anyway, but...). I don't save the pics when he does this so I don't have any clear examples. Usually if I walk him into a stack so he sets his front himself, and then throw a toy out in front, this gets him standing more natural and alert, rather than slouching because he doesn't want his feet placed.


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## GSD Fan

If you guys don't mind, please slow down on posting more dogs to critique. The last critique I did was of selzer's odessa and now I'm on krisk's two or three dogs.


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## lhczth

The greatest skill in giving critiques or "judging" is being able to see the good despite even the glaring faults. You also need to be able to look at the whole animal and not just pieces. This can be a HUGE challenge at times.


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## carmspack

bridging means that the front legs are forward of the the shoulders instead of straight under . Easier to position the legs under the shoulder if you do it from the elbow instead of lower down on the leg or pasterns.

Carmen


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## GSD Fan

Before I post my next critique, I have a question.

If it's all opinion based, then does this thread no longer have a purpose?

I mean, if I say:

"Hocks are too long"

And someone else says

"Hocks are too short"

Then which one is the truth? I mean, it's all opinion based, right? I know the most experienced person is probably right, but how do I know they're just seeing it different than me?


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## Whiteshepherds

GSD Fan said:


> Before I post my next critique, I have a question.
> 
> If it's all opinion based, then does this thread no longer have a purpose?


It has a purpose because we're all learning something. When someone asks for a critique normally, people don't question the response. 
Because this is a "critique my critique" thread it offers an insight we don't normally get to see. 

Don't look at it as a test. Think of it as another tool you're using to help you learn how to "see" what a judge sees.


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## Liesje

I don't think it can be both. It is more "opinion" because not everyone has the same level of experience, same level of understanding the standard, and most importantly, people have very different preferences. Not to pick on anyone in particular, but Lisa always gives honest, helpful critiques and I know she prefers working line dogs but I've never felt she was overly critical of my showline dog. Just because we may prefer one type of dog does not mean we are looking for faults in the other types or aren't honest about faults in our own. No dog is perfect.


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## Xeph

> If it's all opinion based, then does this thread no longer have a purpose?


It's opinion based to a degree. There are lots of things about dogs that are subjective, but you need to remember to think of the standard, and how to apply what you SEE to the standard. There are certain things mentioned that ARE actual faults (which vary in severity), and so you can never escape the fact that a dog with a long coat is a fault (in AKC). It is a minor fault, but a fault none the less. There can be no two ways about that.

Other things need to be interpreted, such as the length of a dog. A dog that is too long can succumb to a soft back, as their proportions are off. Now of course, how the dog's back behaves is also connected to it's angulation front and rear, and how it uses them, but the point is that efficiency can be lost if a dog is too long.

What is "too long" is a matter of opinion to a degree, but you need to look at the proportions of the dog, which should be 10 to 8.5


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## carmspack

gsd fan go to the post which is now under Castlemaid (who reposted it ) There are lots of sites with actual critiques from SV judges , koer reports. Have a look at the dog , formulate your critique and then cross check it with the professional one .
Page 8 .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

carmspack said:


> GSDfan you keep on learning . Do not ever let anyone dissuade you .
> 
> I read each and every post to make sure that this has not been already recommended.
> 
> Go to the pedigree data base and enter any dog - Onex Grenzhof for example just because the name sprung to mind so here he is V Onex vom Grenzhof - German shepherd dog
> 
> The critique will appear albeit in German so that may be no help to you whatsoever, but maybe some members of the forum will assist with the translation of some key , current, important dogs. His translated critique would be ' large, medium strong, normal whither, strong back, short croup, normal angulation front and rear (balanced) , normal chest proportions , correct front , moves true, good movement, good ground covering movement, nerves secure , hardness and fighting drive pronounced. does out
> For Sale - SUPER QUANTUM SON FOR SALE | Pets | Pet Owner | Other | Hong Kong | Very,Sehr,Gerade,German,Normal,?,Front,Good,Hinterhand,Born,Sire,Kruppe,Hk$10,Owner,Import,Comment,???????????,Following,Powerful,Winkelung??
> 
> To keep the lessons balanced here is Neptun Bad Boll VA8 Neptun von Bad-Boll - German shepherd dog
> 
> and a lineup of translations of his critique for you to compare notes with User submitted comments about VA8 Neptun von Bad-Boll - German shepherd dog
> 
> and including a popular working line male Javir Talka Marda V (BSZS) Javir vom Talka Marda - German shepherd dog
> Here is another one with a translation provided.
> 
> I am privileged to have Ms Betty McHugh well respected obedience judge and breeder of great little dachshund live less than a 5 minute drive from my house. I have attended many of her measurements sessions where she applied virtual architectural measurements of the angles of the dogs and explained what little changes meant as far as movement dynamics. Dogs In Canada Magazine -- Casey Gardiner and the school of canine science
> 
> When you match your assessment against that of an experts it helps you understand what it is that you and they are seeing.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Also here because the threads were merged.


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## Whiteshepherds

What is it that you can see in a dog that's stacked that you can't see when they aren't? (Assuming the none stacked dog picture is taken at eye level from the side, dog facing forward)


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## JakodaCD OA

ok I'll play,  Obviously this is not a 'stack', only a side shot ,,fire away


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## onyx'girl

I'd rather see a dog that isn't stretched into an unnatural "stacked" position... I like the look of a natural stance, think a critique should be easier to give(and more honest) when the dog is not being forced to pose.
Diane, if I didn't know better, I would have thought Masi was out of Karlo's litter!


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## JakodaCD OA

thanks jane thats definately a compliment and yeppie thats' her au natural,,always with a frisbee in her mouth LOL


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## elisabeth_00117

elisabeth_00117 said:


>


I agree Jane.

I like a "natural stack" as well.

Stark was playing ball at the park, dropped his ball for me to throw and we got this photo (not intending it to look like a sort stack) but it is a favorite of mine and I think shows off his body quite nicely (could be at a better angle but again, we didn't intend for it to be a stacked photo).

By the way.. Masi :wub:


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## sagelfn

I'll play. Don't worry about offending I know he has bad conformation.

18 months natural stack









21 months in a natural stack









Last week 22 months tried stacking him.


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## onyx'girl

GSD fan may be feeling overwhelmed with all the critique requests....maybe she'd be open to others giving opinions on the pics posted?


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## KZoppa

onyx'girl said:


> GSD fan may be feeling overwhelmed with all the critique requests....maybe she'd be open to others giving opinions on the pics posted?


 
possible. She's already said earlier before that whole mess that caused the deletion and then merging of threads that she wouldnt mind. Might still hold true.


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## KZoppa

okay... running through my albums... here's some of the best pictures i have of Shasta.... lol
(these pictures were taken after a bath so that explains the spazzy fur lol)



























i'm extremely curious to know how she'd be critiqued


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## GSD Fan

Yeah, I am a bit overwhelmed, but it's not just because of the pace. I'm studying for tests and exams and am finding a hard time finding time to critique like I want.

Anyone else who would like to critique is welcome.


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## Rei

Rei said:


> I'll play
> 
> 
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> 
> Old picture, from several months ago


Anyone can feel free and critique Trent. I actually believe that he stepped into all the stacks but the last himself.


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## Jessiewessie99

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Enjoy all the pretty dogs that are being posted.
> 
> You are learning and that is awesome! I will join in. They aren't the best pictures, but thats ok:
> 
> Molly is self stacking here(bad angle I know):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some attempted stacks of Molly I did(Yes I know they are horrible):


Critique away. I will try to get better pictures tomorrow of Molly stacking.


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## Whiteshepherds

Rei said:


> I'll play
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Anyone can feel free and critique Trent. I actually believe that he stepped into all the stacks but the last himself.


Unlike GSD Fan, I don't have the nerve to critique on the forum. But I do think he reminds me of the old Seigers in these two pictures and I like the look.


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## robinhuerta

I really want to assist in the critiques...but I don't want to be *unfair* in them either....
Many of the pictures do not *accentuate* the good attributes of the dogs posted.
They do the opposite...the are *enhancing* the short comings, and minor or major faults of these wonderful dogs.
I would prefer to comment on the dogs, when they can be *shown* in a positive view.
Maybe we should start a thread about the *proper* way to stack our wonderful dogs!!???
Pictures can be posted on the do's and don'ts......so everyone can learn.
THEN...we can attempt to give proper critiques of them, in a later thread???
*I would be glad to critiques dogs at that time*....trying to critique now, could possibly offend...and I don't want that to happen at all.
Since Conformation is one of the venues we competitively participate in.....I really do enjoy this thread!
What says all???


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## KZoppa

robinhuerta said:


> I really want to assist in the critiques...but I don't want to be *unfair* in them either....
> Many of the pictures do not *accentuate* the good attributes of the dogs posted.
> They do the opposite...the are *enhancing* the short comings, and minor or major faults of these wonderful dogs.
> I would prefer to comment on the dogs, when they can be *shown* in a positive view.
> Maybe we should start a thread about the *proper* way to stack our wonderful dogs!!???
> Pictures can be posted on the do's and don'ts......so everyone can learn.
> THEN...we can attempt to give proper critiques of them, in a later thread???
> *I would be glad to critiques dogs at that time*....trying to critique now, could possibly offend...and I don't want that to happen at all.
> Since Conformation is one of the venues we competitively participate in.....I really do enjoy this thread!
> What says all???


 
i wouldnt be offended. I'm curious how Shasta would be critiqued. Wont make me love her any less. I know she's a pain in the butt and not breeding or showing material but i'm curious how those with a better eye for the standard would view her though she is only a year old (may 5th!)


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## Jessiewessie99

I will not be offended, but I can see why the poor stacking attempts(such is done by myself.lol) would be an issue.

Maybe I had too many brownies.


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## Rei

Robin, if you would like to give tips on how to improve the stack, I would appreciate that, as well. I do know that Trent's paws are poorly positioned, but he did walk into most of the stacks I posted.



Whiteshepherds said:


> Unlike GSD Fan, I don't have the nerve to critique on the forum.


LOL Me neither, really! Which is why I admire and appreciate GSDFan for creating this thread.



Whiteshepherds said:


> But I do think he reminds me of the old Seigers in these two pictures and I like the look.


That's quite a compliment in my mind, Trent and I thank you


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## sagelfn

Robin, I would not be offended. Actually I would prefer someone point out what is wrong with a stack so I stop making the same mistakes.


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## robinhuerta

Someone start a *Do's & Don't Stacking Thread*...and we can start learning from there........
Rei....your dog, Lies's dogs, and Whiteshepherds...are the closest for decent stands..(for Conformation critiques)....but they too can be done better to *show* the dogs for the best evaluation.
I know that many people like natural stand pics (I do too)...but lets learn what the "Judges want to see".
OK????????????


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## Whiteshepherds

robinhuerta said:


> Since Conformation is one of the venues we competitively participate in.....I really do enjoy this thread!
> What says all???


Makes sense! Will try to take stacked pictures tomorrow if weather and dogs cooperate.

How about these two? (dogs are actually stacked) Harley's dam, and Annie's sire. Don't expect you to condone the color, just interested in what you see beyond that. 

Sire









Dam


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## Xeph

I'm with Selzer, and could go more in depth a bit later, but WOW. I'd like darker pigment on the dam, but I LOVE her proportions, bones, pasterns....angulation is beauuuuuuutiful! She's breathtaking.


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## holland

Well hopefully this isn't too off topic -but can white shepherds be shown?


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## Whiteshepherds

holland said:


> Well hopefully this isn't too off topic -but can white shepherds be shown?


Not with the AKC Holland. They can participate in all AKC performance and obedience trials but not conformation.


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## Rei

Honestly, these are some of the nicest White Shepherds I have seen. Beautiful dogs, I really like the type.


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## holland

They are both very nice


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## Liesje

holland said:


> Well hopefully this isn't too off topic -but can white shepherds be shown?


Yes. In UKC they have their own breed. I have seen a white shepherd win Best in Show at the Premier (HUGE annual UKC show).


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## GSD Fan

Carmen, I have a question.

I entered in Connie from Sequoyah in the pedigree base and no description popped up. So a description only shows up on a dog that has been shown or am I looking wrong?

Connie V.H. Polbeekkwartier - German shepherd dog


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## Xeph

> So a description only shows up on a dog that has been shown or am I looking wrong?


A dog only shows up if it has been entered in the database


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## selzer

I did post a minor critique on those two white sheps, but then deleted it because I was too chicken to leave what I wrote in the middle of the night out there. I like them both. I think I like the male just a little more than the female. But they seem to be a very nice pair of breeding dogs, and if I was going to buy a white one, that would be an interesting litter.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Soooo....


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## GSDGunner

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Soooo....



I assume there were too many pictures and the OP got overwhelmed.
Or lost interest?


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## Whiteshepherds

GSDGunner said:


> I assume there were too many pictures and the OP got overwhelmed.
> Or lost interest?


I think she had exams or something? And then we bombarded her with bad pictures, someone suggested a new thread about how to stack. (It was posted, too lazy to go look for it) Fun thread while it lasted though!


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## GSD Fan

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think she had exams or something? And then we bombarded her with bad pictures, someone suggested a new thread about how to stack. (It was posted, too lazy to go look for it) Fun thread while it lasted though!


That and I am confused.  I was thinking there was no longer a need for the thread because I was using descriptions under pedigrees. However, I didn't do good thinking about it and this thread does still serve a purpose. The pedigree description can tell WHAT it is, but I'll need members to EXPLAIN it.

I would love to continue critiqueing. It'll be slow because I am doing exams, but I certainly can do it in free time. 

I just want to add this: Siberians and GSDs are very different from each other.


----------



## GSD Fan

krisk said:


> This is very good practice, good for you giving it a try...keep going. Here are some from me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and another
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> And one more
> 
> 
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> 
> krisk


The last dog I did was selzer's odessa. I never got around to krisk's dog. I'll edit this post in just a moment with the critique.

Edit:
According to AKC standards and the third picture from top to bottom.

Musculine head, needs more underbite and the muzzle seems just a bit broad in width. Love the back and stomach or what I think they call the underline. Good, deep chest. Very well muscled dog without looking like he's on doggy steriods. I love the proportions of this dog, whether the hocks to the height or the shoulder to the upper leg.

Overall, seems to have good confirmation.


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## Whiteshepherds

GSD Fan said:


> I just want to add this: Siberians and GSDs are very different from each other.


LOL, yes there are! (but they're both beautiful looking dogs!)


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## GSD Fan

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL, yes there are! (but they're both beautiful looking dogs!)


Yeah, I agree. For some reason I am better with siberians than GSDs. Also, why are GSD's back legs like that when they are stacked? What does that do?


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## cliffson1

It makes them a show dog!


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## Liesje

GSD Fan said:


> Also, why are GSD's back legs like that when they are stacked? What does that do?


They are a longer bodied, rectangular proportioned dog and it is their natural stance. The farthest leg should be "square" (perpendicular to the ground), just like all other breeds are stacked.


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## Andaka

Many GSD's stand that way naturally. It is like a sprinter's start pose -- the weight is primarily on the front, and it is easy to take a step forward by moving the back leg that is farthest back. I'm sure that dogs were seen standing this way while watching the sheep and it was decided many decades ago that it was the appropriate way for the dogs to stand for showing. Do some people over stack their dogs -- sure they do. But that doesn't make the pose bad, just the handler.


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## PaddyD

Xeph said:


> Well, firstly I can promise her head isn't masculine ;-) In my opinion, she has a weak head (that's right, I can admit that her head ain't great). The problem isn't so much her skull (which would be easier to see in person). Her muzzle is weak. Too narrow and needs more underjaw.
> 
> Her neck is relatively long, it is well muscled, but I could certainly see how it may not give that impression.
> 
> Definitely no roach in her back  A roach indicates an upward curvature of the spine, which Mirada doesn't have. Can't help you on the stomach (I'm assuming you mean her underline). And her loin isn't too short. The opposite actually. She's too long.
> With her stomach, what you may be looking at is the pattern of her coat, rather than the actual structure of the dog. You need to learn to look PAST patterns (which can be hard).
> 
> To help you more:
> decent eyes <--What does this mean? Do you mean size, shape, depth of color?
> Tail seems correct <--The set or the length?
> 
> Shoulder blades are decent <--How so? Do they look correctly angulated to you?
> 
> How is her upper arm? Too long? Too short? Steep/too upright? (for the record, fronts are VERY hard to learn for the majority of people, and you'll usually learn to "see" a front in motion before you see it on a standing dog)
> 
> Overal muscle is good. <--Thanks  We work har on conditioning.
> 
> That critique was horrible<--Maybe not the best critique, but the point is you're trying to learn. You're not going to get it all on your first shot. It takes a lot of time to learn how to see structure, and how to apply your knowledge of it.


I thought my dog was long, but your dog is looooonger.
And I see nothing wrong with a female having a female head. Some
people like doggy bitches but not me.


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## GSD Fan

Liesje said:


> I agree with Robin. It's difficult, if not plain unfair, to critique a dog not stacked properly.
> 
> I do most of mine by myself. I got a remote for my camera (about $14 and I got the name brand one). I setup the camera first. Make sure it is perpendicular to the dog and at the level of the dog. I set it on a chair or something like that. You can also use a 10 second timer on the camera but then you have, well, 10 seconds to stack your dog! Then, with a toy or treat in my hand, I walk my dog into a stack. I find this results in a more natural stack and is more agreeable for the dog (don't want the dog slouching, ears flat, etc). I toss the toy or treat out in front of the dog, slightly toward the direction of the camera, then quickly fix the placement of the rear legs if needed, and use the remote to snap the pic. If the dog will stay, I move out of the picture and keep snapping.
> 
> These are ones I've done that way (and Nikon has always been a difficult dog to stack, he often slouches and "bridges" so his front looks bad). Not perfect but easier to critique I think.
> 
> 
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> 
> Pan is easier for me to stack but doesn't "stay" in that position yet
> 
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> 
> Sometimes I cheat and remove myself (if I am distracting)


Second pic, from top to bottom.

Beautiful dog, big and musculine head. Love the head and ears, ears are in proportion to the head. I think the chest is a bit too far out over the front legs, nice underline and back. Good, brushy tail. Overall, I find this dog to be a good specimen as well. Beautiful dog by the way.

Now to wait on feedback. When I get home I'm going to watch that video again and read some more about conformation.

Edit:
I apologize to the people who posted pics of their dogs that I skipped. They weren't stacked correctly or good enough to where if I did a critique, it would have been justice. Does that make sense? Make sure if you post your dog to be critiqued, not only in this thread but others, that you have time to stack em. See the stickies about stacking. Thank you.


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## krisk

I started typing this last month, but didn't have time to finish so I didn't post it at the time. Now that I am able to get back to it, here goes...

I am sorry you where ridiculed for trying to learn. There is no right or wrong way, fast or slow way to learn. The fact that you are LEARNING and working at your knowledge should be applauded. Feel free to pick apart my dogs anytime, anyone who knows me knows I am their harshest critic. If I don't know all their faults structual and other, then what am I doing breeding. As of yet I have not seen the "perfect" dog.

I'll even start...
Connor (first two photos at the top), needs better pasterns and tighter feet. He also needs a better tail set and could use a better croup. His lips are a little loose and his muzzle is a little longer than I like (but that is part of his American heritage). When moving he is clean coming and going and just skims the ground (No lifting like some do). And he looks good and balanced at a fast or slow speed. He has a stallion appearence (you know he's a boy). But he is actually a little heavy for the standard (very big boned), he is the right height (26") but weighs 107 lbs. Oh yeah and his tail has a slight hook, but I always seem to end up with tails like that...Anyone else. I could also mention that his ears tip back at the tip, but that is not a fault of the dog, but my fault for leaving his ears taped (across his head) too long.

Kenna (a Best In Maturity Winner, 3rd and 4th photo from the top) has her faults too. Pasterns being a big one, hers are too long, which adds to them being weeker then they should be. Her toes too are very long and could use tighter feet. Her biggest fault though is her steep shoulders (she doen't have the 90 degree angle at the shoulder). When moving she is slightly hocky going, clean coming. Carries a great level topline, lovely croup and tailset (although in some pictures it is hard to tell, as she has longish hairs that curl around her butt - her breeder is always trying to get them to lay straight). She is very leggy (tall 25.5") and finner boned then I would like. I love her deep chest and maturity is sitting very well on her.

Kris (a BPIS, multi group winner, last photo at the bottom) had one of the most stricking heads I have ever had on a GSD, proportions where great. The only thing is her eyes could have been a little darker (they weren't bad, but not that deep rich dark chocolate). She had the great ears, they were up at 5 weeks of age and never went down, her leather (of her ears) was thicker (stiffer) than any of my other dogs I have had. Lovely neck and shoulders, could have used more chest (Depth). Also the length of her loin. It is hard to see in the above photo, gift of a good handler, but she was definatly a little long. She could use more slope to her croup and a slightly lower tail set. At least her tail didn't hook  I would also have liked her to have a tad bit more rear and shorter hocks (just a bit). Oh I forgot her biggest is one you can't see in the photos. She was missing a first molar (not premolar) which is listed as a major fault in the standard. She was clean coming and going, and like her great grand nephew Connor looked good at any speed and like him she was a mover.

As for Siberian Huskies, I had them when I was a child. My grandmother bred, showed and raced them for over 35 years. I know a few people who have had siberians and GSDs (Not always at the same time). My grandmother was one of them (at her home is where I met and fell in love with the GSD breed, if fact recieved my first GSD from the same breeder as her) and the owner/breeder of Connor's sire is Nanook Siberians here in Alberta. Her boy Mister just finished last year as the #1 Siberian, #2 Working Dog and #12 dog in Canada (I believe). She was hoping for a pup from Connor (as he is the spitting image of his dad), but so far we have had not luck.

Good luck and keep learning (I know I still am).
krisk


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## GSD Fan

No one gave feedback. I guess I'll just let this thread die . . .


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## robinhuerta

GSD Fan.....what "feed back" are you looking for?
Which critique are you referring to and to which dog?


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## GSD Fan

robinhuerta said:


> GSD Fan.....what "feed back" are you looking for?
> Which critique are you referring to and to which dog?


Well, I was just looking for any type of feedback, but I posted that without thinking. Different people see different things, so I guess I don't need feedback. 

The critiques I am referring are the two I just did on page 14, of kirk's and lejle's dogs.


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## shilorio

Just a little fun (;


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## Rei

krisk said:


> I started typing this last month, but didn't have time to finish so I didn't post it at the time. Now that I am able to get back to it, here goes...
> 
> I am sorry you where ridiculed for trying to learn. There is no right or wrong way, fast or slow way to learn. The fact that you are LEARNING and working at your knowledge should be applauded. Feel free to pick apart my dogs anytime, anyone who knows me knows I am their harshest critic. If I don't know all their faults structual and other, then what am I doing breeding. As of yet I have not seen the "perfect" dog.
> 
> I'll even start...
> Connor (first two photos at the top), needs better pasterns and tighter feet. He also needs a better tail set and could use a better croup. His lips are a little loose and his muzzle is a little longer than I like (but that is part of his American heritage). When moving he is clean coming and going and just skims the ground (No lifting like some do). And he looks good and balanced at a fast or slow speed. He has a stallion appearence (you know he's a boy). But he is actually a little heavy for the standard (very big boned), he is the right height (26") but weighs 107 lbs. Oh yeah and his tail has a slight hook, but I always seem to end up with tails like that...Anyone else. I could also mention that his ears tip back at the tip, but that is not a fault of the dog, but my fault for leaving his ears taped (across his head) too long.
> 
> Kenna (a Best In Maturity Winner, 3rd and 4th photo from the top) has her faults too. Pasterns being a big one, hers are too long, which adds to them being weeker then they should be. Her toes too are very long and could use tighter feet. Her biggest fault though is her steep shoulders (she doen't have the 90 degree angle at the shoulder). When moving she is slightly hocky going, clean coming. Carries a great level topline, lovely croup and tailset (although in some pictures it is hard to tell, as she has longish hairs that curl around her butt - her breeder is always trying to get them to lay straight). She is very leggy (tall 25.5") and finner boned then I would like. I love her deep chest and maturity is sitting very well on her.
> 
> Kris (a BPIS, multi group winner, last photo at the bottom) had one of the most stricking heads I have ever had on a GSD, proportions where great. The only thing is her eyes could have been a little darker (they weren't bad, but not that deep rich dark chocolate). She had the great ears, they were up at 5 weeks of age and never went down, her leather (of her ears) was thicker (stiffer) than any of my other dogs I have had. Lovely neck and shoulders, could have used more chest (Depth). Also the length of her loin. It is hard to see in the above photo, gift of a good handler, but she was definatly a little long. She could use more slope to her croup and a slightly lower tail set. At least her tail didn't hook  I would also have liked her to have a tad bit more rear and shorter hocks (just a bit). Oh I forgot her biggest is one you can't see in the photos. She was missing a first molar (not premolar) which is listed as a major fault in the standard. She was clean coming and going, and like her great grand nephew Connor looked good at any speed and like him she was a mover.
> 
> As for Siberian Huskies, I had them when I was a child. My grandmother bred, showed and raced them for over 35 years. I know a few people who have had siberians and GSDs (Not always at the same time). My grandmother was one of them (at her home is where I met and fell in love with the GSD breed, if fact recieved my first GSD from the same breeder as her) and the owner/breeder of Connor's sire is Nanook Siberians here in Alberta. Her boy Mister just finished last year as the #1 Siberian, #2 Working Dog and #12 dog in Canada (I believe). She was hoping for a pup from Connor (as he is the spitting image of his dad), but so far we have had not luck.
> 
> Good luck and keep learning (I know I still am).
> krisk


GSDFan, did you miss this post? It was very helpful for me. 

Thank you for taking the time to post and give your input, krisk.


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## PaddyD

<<-- critique my avatar


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## krisk

Thanks...
GSDfan you made a good catch on Kenna's lack of under jaw (which I did not have in my critique - and should have). She does lack under jaw which gives her long american muzzle a very unpleasant snipey look when veiwed from the side. Good eye and keep up the good work.

krisk

Some of the critiques I have posted are not really that visiable in the pictures posted. One of the reasons it is very hard to get a good judge of a dog from a photo. Things can be hidden or staged to look how you want. If anyone would like to see some of what I am talking about I can look for some of my (lets just say) less flattering photos to show these faults.


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## koda girl

GSDElsa said:


> Here is a roached back:
> Google Image Result for http://www.whynotwebs.com/images/SuperAngleGermanShepherd.JPG


I have never seen a roached back, that is very sad.


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## GSD Fan

Thank you for the critiques krisk! I believe I am slowly getting better with this.


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## Liesje

GSD Fan said:


> Second pic, from top to bottom.
> 
> Beautiful dog, big and musculine head. Love the head and ears, ears are in proportion to the head. I think the chest is a bit too far out over the front legs, nice underline and back. Good, brushy tail. Overall, I find this dog to be a good specimen as well. Beautiful dog by the way.


Since the dog is mine I will give you my critique. Some of these things I know because I own and show him, they may not be visible in a stacked picture.

Overall I like his balance and moderate structure, and medium size. Good bone but not excessively heavy. Not over-angulated. Front/shoulder could be better. Sometimes in movement lacks power in the rear. That could be improved with more ring training. Movement has always been dry, even as a young puppy no looseness. Toes out (east/west) a bit in front. Sometimes shows a little dip behind the wither. Nice head, decent stop, but underjaw may appear weak (especially in profile with the mouth shut - very slight overbite). OK ear set but they are a tad too big for my taste. Excellent color and pigment. Eyes could be darker. Good, healthy coat (luxurious without being too long or fluffy, excuse the non-technical terms!).


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