# Ditching the Gentle Leader, on to a FurSaver & CC



## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

I've had Lita since the 1st of February, when we adopted her from the shelter. She looks a purebred, but I don't know. We thought she was a year, but I'm guessing younger since her head and neck have gained 1" in the past three months.

I started obedience training with a Holt collar. Absolutely crummy response from the dog, and she can't pant to cool herself in the Arizona spring. So I moved to a Gentle Leader. Panting and cooling is better, but she was still making funny sounds and not figuring out what a correction was via the GL. 

I had a martingale at the house today, so I thought I'd try it. Panting was fully engaged, that tongue was hanging all the way out in the Az. morning (yey!)! Her weakness is rabbits and birds - loves to hunt them ( talk about a prey drive!). With the martingale, she was able to respond quicker and more intuitively to a stop/sit/heel. I was able to check her out of the lunge to the birds and rabbits also. But ... when she saw our neighbor, who she loves, Lita climbed up her and licked her face. It's a good thing Tammy likes dog slobber from a GSD!

Anyhow, because the martingale obviously won't check her enough to discourage this, I bit the bullet and decided to get a hold of a HS Fur Saver and a choke collar. "Humane" becomes a judgement call - IMHO it's more humane to provide a full cooling capability to the dog during an Az. summer while walking and training, than using a contraption that doesn't cinch around the neck. A choke collar for training doesn't seem so bad when compared to unnecessarily inducing heat exhaustion or heatstroke. So, I know that Petsmart (i.e. training class) doesn't endorse these, but then Petsmart isn't caring for my dog in my house. I'll put the GL on for class. All other training sessions - Lita will have the ability to cool herself fully the way God intended.

Now, if I would only remember to hydrate before we go out for the morning. Welcome to an Az. summer!


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Did you try a halti? They work better than a gentle leader because they allow the dog to open their mouth unless they are pulling.they are also much nicer than a choke collar.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

fursavers are not correction collars. Why not use a prong?


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> fursavers are not correction collars. Why not use a prong?


Her neck measures 17", while the HS prong is a 23". She's still a puppy and I think that sizing is a little big.


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

sabledog3 said:


> Did you try a halti? They work better than a gentle leader because they allow the dog to open their mouth unless they are pulling.they are also much nicer than a choke collar.


Yes I did. Halti is the same design as the Holt. They DO NOT work better than the Gentle Leader and permitted less mouth opening than the GL did. I think they aren't worth the money. That's my experience, but yours may be different.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lita said:


> Her neck measures 17", while the HS prong is a 23". She's still a puppy and I think that sizing is a little big.


Prong collars are very adjustable.

Please don't give a correction with a head collar. It produces great strain on the dog's neck. IMO, if you are going to be giving corrections, you should use a tool meant for the job.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Lita said:


> Yes I did. Halti is the same design as the Holt. They DO NOT work better than the Gentle Leader and permitted less mouth opening than the GL did. I think they aren't worth the money. That's my experience, but yours may be different.


Haltis are not tight around the muzzle unless the dog (or you, although no reason to do corrections imo) are pulling on it. I believe the holt has a piece that you tighten down, the Haiti does not. This allows the dog to hold a ball, drink, pant,etc, With it interference.there is no reason to put a choke or prong on a puppy.


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Prong collars are very adjustable.
> 
> Please don't give a correction with a head collar. It produces great strain on the dog's neck. IMO, if you are going to be giving corrections, you should use a tool meant for the job.


Agreed. Which is why I am moving away from a head collar. A paradox arises though. Lita is somewhere between 9 and 18 months, as near as I can figure. You can treat/praise/reinforce for good behavior. How do you train a dog (large puppy) _without_ giving a correction, whether it's a twitch on a head collar or a short tug on a neck collar, to let the dog know that behavior needs to change?

Some of the responses here are counter-intuitive.


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

sabledog3 said:


> Haltis are not tight around the muzzle unless the dog (or you, although no reason to do corrections imo) are pulling on it. I believe the holt has a piece that you tighten down, the Haiti does not. This allows the dog to hold a ball, drink, pant,etc, With it interference.there is no reason to put a choke or prong on a puppy.


No. It does not function this way. Neither the Holt/Halti or Gentle Leader will allow for a full opening of the mouth. I know, because I have used them, and seen how little mine and other dogs can open up. Remember it's 100 degrees here by 10, and in the mid 80's by 6 am. Full ability to pant is incredibly important. The dog needs to be able to open wide.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Give a correction, use a prong collar, not a fursaver. Fursavers do not move in such a way to correct(they don't easily slide loose after they are tightened). I only use a fursaver on the dead ring or hooked to one of the links. I use it for tracking and it is always on for training because it is the collar we trial in. But I also use other collars now and then with the fursaver...never a GL however.
Get your prong fitted correctly, use a meaningful correction. If you are out walking use a flat and a prong, run the line on the flat and a tab on the prong. When you need to use the prong, grab the tab. 
Are there other trainers or clubs you can train with instead of going to Petsmart? That would be my absolute last choice for training.


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Lita said:


> No. It does not function this way. Neither the Holt/Halti or Gentle Leader will allow for a full opening of the mouth. I know, because I have used them, and seen how little mine and other dogs can open up. Remember it's 100 degrees here by 10, and in the mid 80's by 6 am. Full ability to pant is incredibly important.
> The dog needs to be able to open wide.


Sorry but you are wrong, haltis are specifically designed so the dog had the freedom to open their mouth.

The way you train with out corrections is by starting is quiet areas and reinforcing good behaviors. Start on the leash in your house, treat or reward for not pulling on the leash. Once your dog has the commands down pat, move to an area with slightly more distractions. This doesn't mean you can't use techniques like "be a tree" or direction changes, but you do not need to jerk or pull on your dogs neck.

Does the end always justify the means? Why choke your puppy or use a painful device on them just to make then walk nice? Especially when you have access to nicer and better techniques, like clicker training, Haltis, or front clip harnesses. Why be mean to your dog when you could be nice to them?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I think what David Winners was trying to say is that headcollars are not meant for corrections, and can cause injury if used that way. There is nothing counter intuitive about using the proper equipment for the training method you are using.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I knew this would go there LOL


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

sabledog3 said:


> Sorry but you are wrong, haltis are specifically designed so the dog had the freedom to open their mouth.
> 
> The way you train with out corrections is by starting is quiet areas and reinforcing good behaviors. Start on the leash in your house, treat or reward for not pulling on the leash. Once your dog has the commands down pat, move to an area with slightly more distractions. This doesn't mean you can't use techniques like "be a tree" or direction changes, but you do not need to jerk or pull on your dogs neck.
> 
> Does the end always justify the means? Why choke your puppy or use a painful device on them just to make then walk nice? Especially when you have access to nicer and better techniques, like clicker training, Haltis, or front clip harnesses. Why be mean to your dog when you could be nice to them?


A dog - any animal - must adequately respire to exist. I'm convinced that the head collars don't allow that to happen in this heat. My experience, I understand yours may be different. Respect it until you live in a desert. 

I do not want to choke the dog. Get it. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. DO. THIS. She really takes a gentle touch that has patience. Until she sees a bird. Or another dog. Or a rabbit. Or a ... You get the picture. I'm sorry Sable but my living room doesn't have these other animals in it. Its a walk in the real biological world that is highly interactive. And she's fine and respondent until she sees a squirrel. Then the gloves come off. Stubborn as a mule. Won't come off the prey. And I don't like the head snap of a head collar not do I like my arm being jerked out. 

Maybe a prong is what's needed - but I'm hoping she will respond to a tug on a fur saver first. We will see. One step at a time.


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I knew this would go there LOL


Lesson learned.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

It is probably hard not knowing her age too. I was about ready to try a prong on my nine month old when I realized I had good control over his pulling in the freedom harness. Of course, I hadn't tried clipping both leash attachments to the front clip before and it gave my arm a break to walk him that way. Just giving you options, not judging you


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

IMO, if she will pull on a flat collar, she will pull on the FS.

Your squirrels are a competing motivator. If your presence and the reward are less rewarding to the dog than chasing the squirrel, no amount of clicking or wagging a tug is going to bring the dog back to you. You have to either work outside the dog's threshold and desensitize the dog to the presence of squirrels, or use an aversive to keep the dog from exhibiting the behavior, or both.

I believe the snap of the dog's head when hitting the end of the leash on a head halter is far more dangerous to the dog than the pinch of a prong collar. JMO


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## sabledog3 (Apr 27, 2014)

Lita said:


> A dog - any animal - must adequately respire to exist. I'm convinced that the head collars don't allow that to happen in this heat. My experience, I understand yours may be different. Respect it until you live in a desert.
> 
> I do not want to choke the dog. Get it. DO. NOT. WANT. TO. DO. THIS. She really takes a gentle touch that has patience. Until she sees a bird. Or another dog. Or a rabbit. Or a ... You get the picture. I'm sorry Sable but my living room doesn't have these other animals in it. Its a walk in the real biological world that is highly interactive. And she's fine and respondent until she sees a squirrel. Then the gloves come off. Stubborn as a mule. Won't come off the prey. And I don't like the head snap of a head collar not do I like my arm being jerked out.
> 
> Maybe a prong is what's needed - but I'm hoping she will respond to a tug on a fur saver first. We will see. One step at a time.


I don't want to choke the dog, but...is sort of like my dog is perfect, but....

You could always tire the dog a little before you walk her so that when she sees the squirrel, she is not so pent up. Also practicing commands like "look"or a positive interrupter in a quiet place and then working up to distractions is very helpful. 

There is a reason why they say patience is a virtue. Positive training can take a little longer, butgetsbetter results in the long run.

Also, I've lived in hot and humid climates and used haltis...I don't think you have used a real halti, or you don't know how to properly fit one, if you think the dog can't fully open its mouth.


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## Tratkins (Feb 15, 2014)

Lita said:


> Remember it's 100 degrees here by 10, and in the mid 80's by 6 am. Full ability to pant is incredibly important. The dog needs to be able to open wide.


What part of the desert are you in? We're in Chandler and boy did it get hot quick this past weekend. My pup figured out quick how to find the shade and I also worry about him being able to cool himself. Our boy loves these big jack rabbits too! How old is your girl?


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

Tratkins said:


> What part of the desert are you in? We're in Chandler and boy did it get hot quick this past weekend. My pup figured out quick how to find the shade and I also worry about him being able to cool himself. Our boy loves these big jack rabbits too! How old is your girl?


East, against the Superstitions. I'm waiting for the first time she finds a rattler - as in I'm on guard for it. Lita is about 9mo to 18 mo. It's hard to say. Her size says older, but her manners and ability to not digest adult food that well tell me she may be younger, closer to the 9 mo. The picture in my avatar is about 3wks ago. I think she was closer to 6 mo when we got her and her size fooled people. She's gained 5lbs in 3 months, an inch in her head and her neck, and I can still see her ribs. 

I should have named her Enigma.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The fur saver is terrible as a correction collar. The links are too big to get a good crisp correction. The smaller the links the better the correction with a properly fit non stretchy nylon (NOT what they sell at Petsmart!) one being the best (JMO from the days I taught with choke collars.......I used what they now call the "dominant dog collar" ( a snug snap slip) but you would go through several if the neck is still growing.

Second vote for a properly used and fitted prong but it sounds like you don't have any experience with one. Leerburg site has some good info on fitting a prong and we could help with that. Same thing with the prongs. Herm Springer is the best. But don't use a prong if you don't fit it properly.

I have used Halti's and Gentle leaders as well (Positive only methods) and the dog had FULL ability to pant so I am not sure how you are using it unless the dog is pulling into it but I like the prong a lot better. 

For the pulling and general excitement, I think you need to spend more time on engagement in a non distracting environment . FWIW, I carry water on my walks. No biggie.

If a 9 month old cannot adjust adult food, I think you have a different problem. GSDs are a notorious breed for having sensitive digestions. A lot of puppies are never fed puppy food as the formulas are not all that different, particularly on the nicer foods as long as you stay away from the super high protein and calcium blends.........under 30% on the protein and under 1.5% on the calcium with about equal calcium and phosphorus is pretty typical for large breed dogs until fully grown.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No brainer to me, use a prong. If she has all her adult teeth and is lunging at animals, she's old enough for one. You can either correct her yourself, or let her self-correct, but if she's not that soft, you may have to correct her, plenty of dogs will pull into prong just like they will any other flat collar. Praise her when she's right, correct her when she's wrong.


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## Lita (Mar 20, 2014)

*Decision Made*

After talking with a relative who has had GSD's all of her life and our trainer, I ordered a Prong and a backup Fur Saver today. I'm out of options, and the Petsmart trainer endorsed a prong for her. What does that tell you? 

I feel like I have somehow failed.


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

Please don't feel as if you've failed, you deal with the dog you have, not always the one you particularly wanted! In my opinion, it's also kind to communicate clearly how you expect the dog to behave. Check out these links on prongs from a balanced trainer: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85r03U5WPV8

and maybe watch this one first, David Winners posted it a while ago, I think it's beautiful!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEnoPXgWG0U

Good luck and have fun!


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## Bonzay (Mar 25, 2014)

Have you tried something like this? http://youtu.be/9mWwU3aWPIU
Maybe you could train in your home and trigger her prey drive using a ball? 

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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

David Winners said:


> I believe the snap of the dog's head when hitting the end of the leash on a head halter is far more dangerous to the dog than the pinch of a prong collar. JMO


I totally agree. Also, my dog had the fur rubbing off on her nose from her Gentle Leader, and my vet said she sees a lot of eye and neck injuries from them (it was irritating my dog's eyes).

My dog also would shut down in a gentle leader (literally curled up in a ball and wouldn't move), but is happy in a prong. It's funny that so many people think prongs are unkind, but my dog was *much* happier to wear that! 

OP, a fur saver won't stop pulling. The links don't slide all that easily, I don't find it much different than a flat collar that way, my dog will pull like a freight train in her fur saver. Try a prong. You can remove links to make it fit. It should be relatively snug, and sit high on the neck, behind the ears.

I would use a fur saver as a backup to a prong though

You didn't fail your dog at all, don't be silly! You guys are a work in progress!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

It's going to be pointless to train in class one way and at home another.

As well pet smart is far from decent training....

Why don't you find a private trainer in your area that will work with prongs?

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Lita said:


> Agreed. Which is why I am moving away from a head collar. A paradox arises though. Lita is somewhere between 9 and 18 months, as near as I can figure. You can treat/praise/reinforce for good behavior. How do you train a dog (large puppy) _without_ giving a correction, whether it's a twitch on a head collar or a short tug on a neck collar, to let the dog know that behavior needs to change?
> 
> Some of the responses here are counter-intuitive.


There's no reason you can't start giving mild corrections at that age for known behaviors. By now hopefully you have a verbal correction she knows (no or uh uh for example), start combining that with with a slight leash pop

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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

I bet I have the biggest plethora of gear on this forum. I've bought it ALL -- and it came down to the ONLY thing that has worked is a prong collar. I wish I had all the money I wasted on the other stuff.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Lastly prongs don't choke the dog. They allow for an even and precise distribution to be felt around the dogs neck that allows for an obvious correction that does NOT cause pain unless severe enough. And many dogs will simply self correct when they hit the end. I did a lot of "flee market" walking with berlin when I first put him on the prong. 

Holding the leash fairly short, gave him less than 6 inches so hr had to stay close, I kept my thumb in my pocket and my fingers holding on to the seem of my pants so the leash position with my body wouldn't change. Then I just pretended like I was walking around around a flee market. First fast, then slow. Stopping frequently. Looking around. Changing directions. I always turn my head in the direction I'm going before I change my direction so the dog can take a cue from that and follow. 

There was no choking, no pain, he self corrected when he didn't pay attention and keep up. Simple. 

As far as distraction, you need to work on way more engagement so YOU become more exciting. Lots and lots of play, with tugs are great. That way you should be able to call the dog off a lunge because coming back to you is going to be more fun.

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