# Raw meat



## CaliGS (May 14, 2018)

I wanted to ask you guys how you feel about your GSD eating raw meat. I got most of my information from a YouTube channel called “1st508th airborne”. There are always misconceptions and beliefs about this and I believe it’s the route I am going to take with my 1.5 year old GSD who I’ve recently started giving canned sardines with her dry kibble and she’s loved it and hasn’t had any stomach issues. This week I started giving her raw chicken drums and wings along with sardines , without any kibble. She has been loving the food. I plan on giving her whole fish and adding different parts of the chicken like gizzards etc.. 

The people who have not done any research on this topic , please do so, very interesting subject being that our dogs derived from wolves.

Thoughts ? Opinions ?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

you will find many raw feeders here.
there is an entire forum dedicated to this topic: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I feed my GSD raw so I feel fine about it. It can not just be done willy nilly. There is a right way and there is a wrong way and doing it wrong will not provide your dog with proper nutrition and will cause issues. There are a lot of raw feeding groups on facebook that can help you plan meals a source products. I think you would do best to feed kibble while you research more about raw and how to feed balanced meals. 



https://perfectlyrawsome.com/


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, in your research, are you tracking micronutrients on a spreadsheet and feeding according to NRC guidelines? Be very careful about "winging it" based on Youtube videos from someone who may or may not be formulating properly. You can't just give some sardines, chicken drumsticks and wings -- that's not a nutritionally adequate diet. I recommend that you check out Monica Segal's site and books, if you're not currently tracking micronutrients on a spreadsheet:
https://www.monicasegal.com/


The hassle of tracking that stuff is why I use a base-mix with raw. It does the work for me. There are many base-mix options to either help through the transition while you figure it out, or just use to save time in a busy life -- The Honest Kitchen, Dr. Harvey, Sojo's, Volhard Nutrition, and Balance It all have convenient options. Here are some products to explore:


https://www.thehonestkitchen.com/dog-food/meals/dehydrated-meals/base-mix
https://www.drharveys.com/products/dogs
https://www.sojos.com/mix-meal/sojos-mix-meal-grain-free-recipe-pre-mix-dog-food
https://www.volharddognutrition.com/
https://secure.balanceit.com/recipegenerator_ver4/index.php?rotator=EZ


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## CaliGS (May 14, 2018)

All of the replies have been very helpful , thanks !


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Raw meat alone is not a balanced diet. Wild carnivores don't just eat the meat: they eat a certain amount of bone, plus the organs and even the gut contents (raw feeders call this green tripe). Make sure you dog is getting a blanced diet, as said above.

As for dogs being domesticated wolves, no, not true. Just compare the dentition of a small dog, or even a German shepherd with a wolf. The wolf has much bigger teeth and stronger skull bones which help them take apart raw carcasses. I know of several people whose dogs have damaged teeth when chewing on bones and needed expensive dental work to fix their mouths. Bones can also get stuck in teeth or in the throat, stomach or intestines. Too much bone in the diet can cause severe constipation. Raw wild meat and fish can also have parasites in it that can harm your dog. So, educate yourself if you're going this route.

Another difference between dogs and wolves is that domestic dogs, as a result of thousands of years of living with humans, have become much better at digesting carbohydrates. In times of food scarcity, dogs ate whatever they could get their paws on to stay alive, and that included grains and vegetables and fruits. So, don't let anyone convince you that you have to feed raw in order for your dog to be healthy.


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## e1701dlf (Mar 17, 2017)

I've been feeding my GSD raw since we brought her home at 10 weeks. We fed the dog before her raw too. We now use a company called Texas Tripe that premixes the food and has grass fed beef. We do this because it's easier, not because it's necessary. The dogs respond beautifully. Raw is the way they are supposed to eat. It's not all that complicated and there are tons of websites to help you. Basically, its 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% liver. Vary the meat because different meats have different nutrients. Liver is a meat vitamin pill and is not negotiable on a raw diet. Don't use too much chicke (omega 6) and try, try, try to stay away from CAFO meat if you can afford it. If not it's still better for the dog than dry dog food. Get them some fish (or sardines) for omega 3 fatty acids. My GSD gets 2 cans per week. I throw in a good quality vitamin, some MCT oil and some probiotics for good measure.


Watch "Pet Fooled" on Netflix if you are still wondering if you should switch from dry dog food to raw.


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## CaliGS (May 14, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> Raw meat alone is not a balanced diet. Wild carnivores don't just eat the meat: they eat a certain amount of bone, plus the organs and even the gut contents (raw feeders call this green tripe). Make sure you dog is getting a blanced diet, as said above.
> 
> As for dogs being domesticated wolves, no, not true. Just compare the dentition of a small dog, or even a German shepherd with a wolf. The wolf has much bigger teeth and stronger skull bones which help them take apart raw carcasses. I know of several people whose dogs have damaged teeth when chewing on bones and needed expensive dental work to fix their mouths. Bones can also get stuck in teeth or in the throat, stomach or intestines. Too much bone in the diet can cause severe constipation. Raw wild meat and fish can also have parasites in it that can harm your dog. So, educate yourself if you're going this route.
> 
> Another difference between dogs and wolves is that domestic dogs, as a result of thousands of years of living with humans, have become much better at digesting carbohydrates. In times of food scarcity, dogs ate whatever they could get their paws on to stay alive, and that included grains and vegetables and fruits. So, don't let anyone convince you that you have to feed raw in order for your dog to be healthy.


I will be doing more research as to how to balance her diet. Magwart recommended THK, and the reviews look pretty good as a base with myself adding whichever protein.


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## CaliGS (May 14, 2018)

e1701dlf said:


> I've been feeding my GSD raw since we brought her home at 10 weeks. We fed the dog before her raw too. We now use a company called Texas Tripe that premixes the food and has grass fed beef. We do this because it's easier, not because it's necessary. The dogs respond beautifully. Raw is the way they are supposed to eat. It's not all that complicated and there are tons of websites to help you. Basically, its 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% liver. Vary the meat because different meats have different nutrients. Liver is a meat vitamin pill and is not negotiable on a raw diet. Don't use too much chicke (omega 6) and try, try, try to stay away from CAFO meat if you can afford it. If not it's still better for the dog than dry dog food. Get them some fish (or sardines) for omega 3 fatty acids. My GSD gets 2 cans per week. I throw in a good quality vitamin, some MCT oil and some probiotics for good measure.
> 
> 
> Watch "Pet Fooled" on Netflix if you are still wondering if you should switch from dry dog food to raw.


Great information ! I’m sold on feeding raw , at this point is just learning how to do it the right way , and I’ve gotten a lot of great information . Thank you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I also use a base mix because my older dog has health problems and I’m not willing to experiment. My vet is also completely against raw bones and since my dog has had stomach ulcerations before, I agreed. But a lot of raw feeders here prepare everything themselves. I also decided base mix is more cost effective because I’m not throwing out a lot of vegetables and fruits that might spoil before I can use them all. 

Some states require all fresh fish sold in markets is frozen first to get rid of parasites. So, I would not feed raw fish unless it has been frozen a while. I also freeze chicken and turkey, then thaw, for the same reasons. One week at true freezing should kill any worms, if there are any. I’m sure someone will disagree with me about that, which is fine, I like hearing all sides.

Someone off the board told me not to feed pork to dogs. I still don’t know why. Fish can cause inflammation, too, but not in all dogs and some types contain mercury. I think Tilapia and sardines are alright?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/frozen-fish-sushi_n_58da678be4b018c4606b76a6


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> One week at true freezing should kill any worms, if there are any. I’m sure someone will disagree with me about that, which is fine, I like hearing all sides.


My evidence-based vet (not holistic) basically said the same thing, but he recommended two-weeks in the deep freezer. 

The clinic has lots of raw-feeding clients, and as far as he's concerned, the conversation is about deep freezing, ensuring good hygiene in storage/prep/clean-up to protect people from cross-contamination (i.e., hand and surface sanitizing practices), and ensuring micronutrients are covered. All the salmonella cases he's ever seen in the clinic involved kibble-fed dogs. He'd also far rather people be willing to have the conversation with him about raw feeding than hide it because they think a vet's going to fuss at them over it -- it's one of the many, many reasons I love this clinic.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CaliGS said:


> I wanted to ask you guys how you feel about your GSD eating raw meat. I got most of my information from a YouTube channel called “1st508th airborne”. There are always misconceptions and beliefs about this and I believe it’s the route I am going to take with my 1.5 year old GSD who I’ve recently started giving canned sardines with her dry kibble and she’s loved it and hasn’t had any stomach issues. This week I started giving her raw chicken drums and wings along with sardines , without any kibble. She has been loving the food. I plan on giving her whole fish and adding different parts of the chicken like gizzards etc..
> 
> The people who have not done any research on this topic , please do so, very interesting subject being that our dogs derived from wolves.
> 
> Thoughts ? Opinions ?


Well, our dogs did not derive from wolves, at least not as people think. The "wolf" ancestors of our domestic dogs are also the ancestors of the modern wolf, but not the same animal. Domestic dogs are by nature scavengers and not so much hunters although they will. There bodies have adapted to allow them to process all sorts of things, because for thousands of years they have basically existed on our garbage. Kibble is a new thing as is this fixation we now have with what we feed them. Hundred year old books on proper care of dogs provide fascinating insights. Written back when dogs worked for a living.
I feed my dog the occasional chicken quarter, raw gizzards when I find them, RMB's to chew on(frozen on warm sunny days is awesome) pork trimmings and fish if she will eat it. I just replace her kibble for a meal. She also gets raw eggs, yogurt and blueberries as food toppers sometimes. It's not that I have an issue with her eating raw food, I have an issue with people insisting that it's the be all and end all. Just like everything else, it's a lot of hype. It may be healthier but considering the way we eat I think we may want to start closer to home:wink2:

BTW watch sardines, some not all brands add salt.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

e1701dlf said:


> I've been feeding my GSD raw since we brought her home at 10 weeks. We fed the dog before her raw too. We now use a company called Texas Tripe that premixes the food and has grass fed beef. We do this because it's easier, not because it's necessary. The dogs respond beautifully. Raw is the way they are supposed to eat. It's not all that complicated and there are tons of websites to help you. Basically, its 80% muscle meat, 10% bone and 10% liver. Vary the meat because different meats have different nutrients. Liver is a meat vitamin pill and is not negotiable on a raw diet. Don't use too much chicke (omega 6) and try, try, try to stay away from CAFO meat if you can afford it. If not it's still better for the dog than dry dog food. Get them some fish (or sardines) for omega 3 fatty acids. My GSD gets 2 cans per week. I throw in a good quality vitamin, some MCT oil and some probiotics for good measure.
> 
> 
> Watch "Pet Fooled" on Netflix if you are still wondering if you should switch from dry dog food to raw.


Wow, and I thought I was opinionated, lol. Not sure we should be letting Netflix make decisions for us.


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## CaliGS (May 14, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> Well, our dogs did not derive from wolves, at least not as people think. The "wolf" ancestors of our domestic dogs are also the ancestors of the modern wolf, but not the same animal. Domestic dogs are by nature scavengers and not so much hunters although they will. There bodies have adapted to allow them to process all sorts of things, because for thousands of years they have basically existed on our garbage. Kibble is a new thing as is this fixation we now have with what we feed them. Hundred year old books on proper care of dogs provide fascinating insights. Written back when dogs worked for a living.
> I feed my dog the occasional chicken quarter, raw gizzards when I find them, RMB's to chew on(frozen on warm sunny days is awesome) pork trimmings and fish if she will eat it. I just replace her kibble for a meal. She also gets raw eggs, yogurt and blueberries as food toppers sometimes. It's not that I have an issue with her eating raw food, I have an issue with people insisting that it's the be all and end all. Just like everything else, it's a lot of hype. It may be healthier but considering the way we eat I think we may want to start closer to home/forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_wink.png
> 
> BTW watch sardines, some not all brands add salt.


In regards to the “considering the way we eat” part, IMO has no relevance to the topic , we are not being fed , we choose to eat what we eat, we also have access to a lot more preventative medicine and technology. But I do agree with the fact that we are fixated in what we feed our dogs, but then again if we weren’t , we will never find out what is the best way to feed them. If it’s healthier and I can afford to do it the right way, but still choosing to feed kibble, I believe is failing the dog in one way or another.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Magwart said:


> My evidence-based vet (not holistic) basically said the same thing, but he recommended two-weeks in the deep freezer.
> 
> The clinic has lots of raw-feeding clients, and as far as he's concerned, the conversation is about deep freezing, ensuring good hygiene in storage/prep/clean-up to protect people from cross-contamination (i.e., hand and surface sanitizing practices), and ensuring micronutrients are covered. All the salmonella cases he's ever seen in the clinic involved kibble-fed dogs. He'd also far rather people be willing to have the conversation with him about raw feeding than hide it because they think a vet's going to fuss at them over it -- it's one of the many, many reasons I love this clinic.


You found a good vet practice. I was talking to a friend in market about raw and a local vet, who has a huge clientele was evesdropping. She stopped and said I am a vet and the worst thing you can do is feed your dog raw. I was speechless. It’s so good to hear salmonella comes from kibble. If I ever see her again, I will tell her that. She’s been a vet for over 20 years. She should know that. 

The meat counter at my other market told me about freezing. They said they all do it, then thaw and sell fish as fresh.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CaliGS said:


> In regards to the “considering the way we eat” part, IMO has no relevance to the topic , we are not being fed , we choose to eat what we eat, we also have access to a lot more preventative medicine and technology. But I do agree with the fact that we are fixated in what we feed our dogs, but then again if we weren’t , we will never find out what is the best way to feed them. If it’s healthier and I can afford to do it the right way, but still choosing to feed kibble, I believe is failing the dog in one way or another.


To each their own. I don't believe that feeding my dog is failing it. And I don't believe that anyone should be guilted into doing anything they aren't comfortable with, for any reason. Dog food has come a long way over the years. I have personally seen raw fed dogs that are anything but healthy, and I have watched people surrender dogs they loved because other people convinced them they couldn't do enough. Most of the raw feeders I have met are kind of bullies about it, and often ill informed. For example militant raw feeders often forget that in various parts of the world meat is rather expensive, not everyone has a deep freeze, some brands of things are only available in certain areas. So while I think it's educational(for a lot of reasons) to learn about it, it may not be right for all people.
I have researched it, I do understand the premise and I feed my dogs a mixture of whole foods and kibble which apparently you cannot do. Yet I have been doing it for 20+years and through dozens of healthy and fit dogs.
I do like it when people bring up topics for discussion.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

It costs me $200/mo to feed one large dog with severe food allergies THK plus high-quality, antibiotic/hormone free beef because he can't eat chicken/turkey. That's EXPENSIVE -- but it's still cheaper than high-quality commercial raw. If I hadn't adopted him and taken on his health issues, he'd probably be dead -- there aren't many people out there looking to rescue dogs with needs like this.

I don't have a choice for him because of his severe food allergies and wrecked GI tract -- if he weren't on this, he'd be on RX kibble and rounds of antibiotics and other stuff constantly (which is where we were when all this started). He was very, very sickly, in constant pain and living a miserable existence until my vet and I figured out that food was inflaming his GI tract. He can't even eat kibble with the same basic ingredients as his current diet -- we tried! We ended up feeding this way out of sheer desperation. 



However, two of my dogs do great on high-quality kibble (Fromm) -- fabulous skin/coats, musculature, and great overall health. I've also seen many, many foster dogs (and friends' dogs) do great on affordable, mid-grade, basic chicken-and-rice food like Diamond Naturals/Costco Kirkland/4Health. My dad's GSD thrives on Purina One -- she's at least 12-13, and more expensive foods give her gas and diarrhea, as does anything else Purina makes, but One just happens to agree with her. For him on senior citizen's fixed income, it's more expensive than he'd otherwise feed so for him on a limited budget, it's pricey food. I totally agree that nobody ought to feel like a bad owner if they can't spend vast amounts on dog food -- do the best you can for your dog, and find what fits their personal digestive needs best.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Magwart, that's what I mean. I remember walking through grocery stores with $20 in my pocket to feed me and a dog for the week. I was existing on noodles and oatmeal. The dog ate Ol' Roy. We both survived.
My current little genetic mess is allergic to several things and was developing a problem with chicken after a lifetime of eating it. With ground pork selling for $5/lb there was no way I could have put her on raw. Never mind that I had 3 dogs for years plus fosters. She eats First Mate, did crappy on Acana and has an issue with flax which knocked a mess of foods out right away. It certainly isn't the best food but it's solid and she does well on it. Since she wasn't supposed to live at all and is nearing 9 I am thrilled.
I had an elderly woman trying to surrender her aging poodle because people made her feel bad for feeding Purina. It was all she could afford. We found her a better low cost option(thank you Walmart!) and the dog lived out it's days with the owner that loved it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My dogs must not eat that much. I use two boxes of THK every month, which is $90 because I get a bulk buy discount. I buy a few months at a time.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

It's the cost of the meat that's so expensive for me, @*LuvShepherds*. I'm limited to beef and goat due to food allergies. He eats at least 10# per week, which costs about $4/lb for abx/hormone-free beef = $40/week X4 = $160...plus the cost of THK at $45-50/box...and we go through one about every 3 weeks. I usually buy THK with a coupon code from OnlyNaturalPet.com.

Chicken and turkey would be WAY cheaper (esp. if it were the salt-filled, industrial chicken sold at mass supermarkets...but who wants to feed a dog that much salt?). Even beef sales can sometimes be cheaper...but not for abx/hormone free, unless WF is having an astonishing sale. There's a raw vendor that's been posted here a few times with $2/lb beef...but it's 4D beef as far as I can tell. That kind of meat seems to work great for those feeding it to young, healthy dogs but I'm unwilling to go there with a cancer-dog who's in remission. (For those thinking about raw, notice how it falls into a spectrum, just like kibble -- from inexpensive 4D beef or salt-water-brined chicken to abx/hormone-free to organic/grass-fed...!)

In case anyone is still buying cheap supermarket chicken for dogs (or even for yourself!) and not reading labels or paying attention to the salt-water issue, Consumer Reports broke the news at least 10 years ago on it, and it's still standard practice in the U.S.: chicken can be sold as "natural" after being soaked in brine or injected with up to 15% salt water and artificial flavor additives like corn syrup -- so $1 of ever $6 is spent on salt water and flavor additives:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-jan-04-la-ed-chicken4-2010jan04-story.html


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

State & County Fair season is coming up all over the US.

Go to the 4H / Juniors Livestock Auctions. Bid on whole animals - every dollar spent (per pound) over fair market value is tax deductible as allowed by law. And "fair market" value is retail price - not taking into account the higher quality that you're buying.

Ask where they send the animals for butcher. When you bid, you'll usually be offered a choice of which processor to use. They usually use good, small scale meat companies that are HAPPY to save boxes of odds 'n ends for you! In years past, when we buy pork/beef/lamb (whole animals to share/divide up among the rest of the family), the meat company is MORE than happy to throw in all the extra hocks, hearts, ears, tracheas, bags of (unrendered!) trim, bones, from multiple other animals processed on the same day. For FREE. 

You'll be hard pressed to find healthier, more humanely raised meat than that from 4H kid's project animals. 

Last year we bought one hog to gift to family/friends. When I picked it up, they threw in at least 6 additional hogs' worth of trim, organs, feet, hocks, ears, etc - for freeeeeeeeee - because I called ahead and asked nicely. Happens every year.

Find the 4H livestock auctions!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mine eat 10# a week for two, but they are are smaller. One is petite. I buy meat in bulk and it’s less than that. My older one can eat chicken and turkey. My younger one is allergic to chicken. I have been alternating turkey but he started itching and biting at his flanks. I’m not sure if it’s an allergy or fleas. He has another stomach rash that looks like flea bites, so I’m not sure but for now, he’s off of turkey too. I would like to find other meat sources. One place sells huge tubes of beef cheeks but they look like solid fat so I haven’t bought them.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Because of my (small) pet dog training business I have an account at a whole sale food company where I order chicken backs, organ meat, turkey necks etc. Reasonably priced and it is human-grade. Maybe this could help you cut costs.
Furthermore network with farmers at farmer's markets. That's how I got a hold of grass fed bison tripe, and all kinds of "waste".


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