# Breeding for "Straight Back"



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The only thing I have read here, is that breeding for straight back is a fallacy and an advertising gimick. It is a movement of what many would call "BYB" but it is for a purpose among small scale breeders. This is my girl Summer at 15 mos (female). The only comparison I could find is a mature male. Please allow for the differences in age and sex. It's the best I could find to compare.

There is a movement to breed "old fashioned" or straight back and that is what my breeder was trying to accomplish. Summer is F1 out of Hungary (WGSL) and American Bred. She started out her first 9 mos with a hump in her back. She has a sharp croup that will stay, but I just wanted to put this up here - there are attempts being made and it's not all hype -






for straight back.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Oh here we go again.

Stonevintage, you started a thread yourself about the shady crap your breeder pulls. Sire couldn't pass OFA and they claim he's with some sheriff's deptartment (with zero proof), if I remember correctly. You really would go as far as to claim that your dog's breeder had an agenda in mind? The dogs aren't even health tested!

And your photo is at a completely different angle than the comparison photo. The only people who use "straight back" as their buzz word selling point are the people who surround it by "super protective of their family, mellow temperament, 130lbs, old style" etc, with dogs that have never been evaluated by anyone other than themselves and will never be proven in any venue. Nevermind the entire lack of health testing. How can you promote them as breed ambassadors? 

Just because you can find pictures of exaggerated showlines doesn't mean that its the entirety of the breed.

8/30/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

9/20/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

12/31/14 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well,here's the first GSD.If this is the breed standard it's obvious that many of the show line breeders have deviated from this over time.the written standard says "straight back".
Yes there are some irresponsible BYB that use gimmicks to sell unhealthy dogs.There are also those that health test,title,and genuinely try to do right by our breed.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess I'm confused about what about a 'straight back' makes it to be preferred? What is the purpose and how does it help the GSD work better?


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## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

They never show the "straight backed dogs" stretched out in a stacked position either.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> I guess I'm confused about what about a 'straight back' makes it to be preferred? What is the purpose and how does it help the GSD work better?


Check out the Breed Standard forum for an article titled "An SV judge looks at the Breed standard".Lots of info and diagrams on bone structure if you're interested.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

These are pictures of the same dog. He is a typical WGSL type. No, he is not crippled. He is a family pet. We are also active in IPO and agility with rally on the side. He is SG show rated, has his BH, and is training for his AD this fall (12 mile endurance test). His prelims are OFA good hips/elbows normal - will repeat when he is 2 next month. 













You can support whatever breeding practices you want, but I'll go with health tested, titled dogs (not just a CGC, which my dog has too).


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

For the millionth time, "straight back" does not mean parallel to the ground. And don't compare stacked to unstacked dogs, to show a "straight back".


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

[URL=http://s57.photobucket.com/user/Andaka/media/Tag/DSC_0063.jpg.html]


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I don't think anyone is criticizing anyone's dogs!The only thing I would speak against is :
1.Breeding for extremes 
Examples would be a dog with a top line that appears "stacked" when he is standing naturally or grossly oversized.
2.Breeding for vanity while disregarding health,temperament, working ability.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> How can you promote them as breed ambassadors?
> 
> Alexis,
> 
> ...


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

The "frog dogs" aren't actually nearly as common as people think they are... they're bred to an extreme, and as such are an outlier of the population. What most people think of as "straight backed" (i.e. what BYB's are advertising) is actually swaybacked. People never seem to understand that a stacked dog is not a roached dog or an extremely angulated dog.

There's no "movement" except for BYB's producing fat, swaybacked dogs. People say it's a marketing gimmick because any breeder worth their salt doesn't HAVE to "breed for" straight backs- they're already producing dogs with functional conformation. If the best a breeder can say about their dogs is that they don't have extreme angulation, then that's not really a breeder I want to go to. Whenever someone is saying that, they're preying on people who just don't know any better, and don't know that a 130 lb dog with an ironing board back is no better for the breed than that frog dog they think is the norm. They're two opposite ends of the spectrum, with the actual desirable conformation being in the middle.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sorry but the dogs in Stone's post don't look sway backed.I have seen some examples of fat sway backed dogs but none in this thread.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> GatorDog said:
> 
> 
> > How can you promote them as breed ambassadors?
> ...


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Sorry but the dogs in Stone's post don't look sway backed.I have seen some examples of fat sway backed dogs but none in this thread.


I'm not talking about the pictures she posted. I'm talking about 90% of the dogs that are advertised as "Old Fashioned Straight-Backed." What she's posting pictures of are simply dogs with moderate conformation, not something that there's a sudden "movement" to breed for. Like I said... any breeder worth their stuff is already breeding for that.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> How can you promote them as breed ambassadors?
> 
> Alexis,
> 
> ...


What is special about the two dogs you posted?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

You can't really compare a photo of an unstacked dog to one in a stack... Someone posted some photos in a GSD group I'm in, one with a stacked dog and the other with the dog standing normally and asked which dog everyone preferred. Almost everyone picked the non stacked dog and complained about the roach backed frog dog(the photo of the stacked dog).

Thing is, the photos were both of the SAME dog.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

What exactly is a "frog dog?" I've heard this term often on this forum but have yet to see one in the flesh. I've looked hard though at many different venues including an AKC GSD specialty show, SV Sieger Show, club SV show, multiple USCA trials, and various AKC obedience and agility events.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> I'm not talking about the pictures she posted. I'm talking about 90% of the dogs that are advertised as "Old Fashioned Straight-Backed." What she's posting pictures of are simply dogs with moderate conformation, not something that there's a sudden "movement" to breed for. Like I said... any breeder worth their stuff is already breeding for that.


Understood


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Check out the Breed Standard forum for an article titled "An SV judge looks at the Breed standard".Lots of info and diagrams on bone structure if you're interested.


but it is the SV that is promoting this craziness , ever since the Martin brothers who dictated the winning trend . 
Every voice of dissent , (read Helmut Raiser - even though legitimately voted in as President) is dealt with and driven out.
That's not good .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> What is special about the two dogs you posted?


Nothing special about them Alexis, please see paragraph #2. They are simply a pair whose litter I looked at. All 4 dogs were posted in their litter advertisement. Do you feel that the older photo (B & W) shows a GSD that is not standard?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

osito23 said:


> What exactly is a "frog dog?" I've heard this term often on this forum but have yet to see one in the flesh. I've looked hard though at many different venues including an AKC GSD specialty show, SV Sieger Show, club SV show, multiple USCA trials, and various AKC obedience and agility events.


Thank goodness they're getting scarce!I've only seen two,one at class and one at an outdoor concert last year.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

**********I have yet to see a dog that is "half dog, half frog" and I'm around American show lines regularly. Granted I'm new to the breed but I've seen the photos for 20-30 years ago and the dogs I'm around don't look like that. Not when standing/moving naturally or when stacked. ********
is what WateryTart said.

I am not new to the breed . I did see the dogs of American show breeding and did handle them in show , 30 years ago -- and they did not look like the dogs of today, seen as recently as 3 weeks ago at the Canadian National .

I was hoping to see some turn to moderation. Alas I did not see it .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Carriesue said:


> You can't really compare a photo of an unstacked dog to one in a stack... Someone posted some photos in a GSD group I'm in, one with a stacked dog and the other with the dog standing normally and asked which dog everyone preferred. Almost everyone picked the non stacked dog and complained about the roach backed frog dog(the photo of the stacked dog).
> 
> Thing is, the photos were both of the SAME dog.


What I am hearing is that the problem is solely from the way they are stacked? That there is no difference in body type, movement or ability over say a working line? If so, the terms working line and show line should be eliminated and both should cross perform equally well in either venue. That sure would make life easier.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> What I am hearing is that the problem is solely from the way they are stacked? That there is no difference in body type, movement or ability over say a working line? If so, the terms working line and show line should be eliminated and both should cross perform equally well in either venue. That sure would make life easier.


I'd like to see those pictures.

"If so, the terms working line and show line should be eliminated " -- not exactly ! There are so many other differences that there is no mistaking them -- genetic diversity one does, the other doesn't, uniformity "cookie cutter" one does, the other doesn't , and more that are an altogether discussion.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> I'd like to see those pictures.
> 
> "If so, the terms working line and show line should be eliminated " -- not exactly ! There are so many other differences that there is no mistaking them -- genetic diversity one does, the other doesn't, uniformity "cookie cutter" one does, the other doesn't , and more that are an altogether discussion.


I agree.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Could someone please explain what makes a 'straight' backed dog so superior ? .. does this make them free from HD or DM or other health problems or ensure they will have an excellent temperament and sound nerves? NO... It's just hype as others have said... breeders promoting their untitled dogs primarily to pet ownerrs asking exorbitant pricies to the unsuspecting buyer who thinks this makes them superior.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if you really want to be a student on anatomy, I would recommend this book Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

I've had a chance to preview it . Everything anatomical is covered including skeletal drawings , tendon attachments, musculature and attachments , multiple drawings of movement showing the effect of conformation , balance, lacking or exaggerated .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There is also an interesting article on Leerburg.com titled "Balance Problems With the American Show German Shepherd"

I also enjoyed the comments between Ed Frawley and an AKC judge in the Q & A section at the bottom of the article. The judge got reamed


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

carmspack said:


> **********I have yet to see a dog that is "half dog, half frog" and I'm around American show lines regularly. Granted I'm new to the breed but I've seen the photos for 20-30 years ago and the dogs I'm around don't look like that. Not when standing/moving naturally or when stacked. ********
> is what WateryTart said.
> 
> I am not new to the breed . I did see the dogs of American show breeding and did handle them in show , 30 years ago -- and they did not look like the dogs of today, seen as recently as 3 weeks ago at the Canadian National .
> ...


That's really unfortunate. My experience (limited though it is) has been different with respect to moderation in today's dogs. However, I've got a short timeline and smaller sample size, so I'll be glad to defer to you because you've got longer experience.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> There is also an interesting article on Leerburg.com titled "Balance Problems With the American Show German Shepherd"
> 
> I also enjoyed the comments between Ed Frawley and an AKC judge in the Q & A section at the bottom of the article. The judge got reamed


Except, that Frawley fails to illustrate his point because the dog that he uses as an example IS pretty much a nicely balanced dog --- read more addressing this very article Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

I wish he was typical of what is in the show ring .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is the example Leerburg uses to show exaggerations , but this is a NICE dog --


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

carmspack said:


> if you really want to be a student on anatomy, I would recommend this book Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> I've had a chance to preview it . Everything anatomical is covered including skeletal drawings , tendon attachments, musculature and attachments , multiple drawings of movement showing the effect of conformation , balance, lacking or exaggerated .


Thank you for the link!Looking forward to reading it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Except, that Frawley fails to illustrate his point because the dog that he uses as an example IS pretty much a nicely balanced dog --- read more addressing this very article Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> I wish he was typical of what is in the show ring .


I think the term "balanced" is being interpreted in two different ways. If you look at the skeletal figures and the back leg placement as compared to other herding dogs - then yes, I see the problem in the dog in the photo but yes, that dog is beautifully "balanced" proportion wise. 

It was my understanding that the exaggerated rear leg extension and resulting angulation was done to get that special "show gait" that is so desired.

I don't think this article was meant to focus on the back, in which case this would have been a crappy photo to use for extreme angulation but it is focusing on the rear leg and how there are "balance" issues there that do not suit a herding dog. That's the way I read it anyway.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't care if you call it straight back, over-angulation or what else. I like Deja's built because when I look at her I do see a straight back, strong gaits, no wobbling hind legs in a stand. Sometimes she just spontaneously put herself in a show stand and her hocks are off the ground. She stands on her feet, not on pasterns. I am completely not knowledgeable about judging GSDs but I know what I like, no matter how you label it.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Our pup is WGSL and our older GSD is what you would probably refer to as "straight" backed. I can tell you that our WGSL dog is much, much more agile that the older dog. He can turn on a dime, and out maneuver the other dog any day of the week. His hocks are closer to the ground than the other dog's hocks, so it makes sense to me. It seems to me that he has a lower center of gravity behind and it works to his advantage.

The older dog is faster than he is, but he's also taller and 30 pounds heavier, so he's stronger. (He's oversized.) If both were herding dogs, there is no doubt in my mind that the younger, smaller dog would seriously out perform the older one, simply because of his conformation.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how do you have a powerful thrust and follow through , and a period of suspension , which is where there is no effort or energy -- it is suspended , when you have "His hocks are closer to the ground than the other dog's hocks, so it makes sense to me." 

no sense to me


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

The idea I got was that people breeding for "straight back" are producing dogs lacking proper angulation, which detracts from the dog's ability to move as efficiently as possible. The best description I've personally read so far was in Wynn Strickland's book. She explains the exact degrees of angulation in the dog's anatomy (bone to bone, etc) that would lead to the most efficient movement with least energy expenditure. 

To me the "straight backed" GSDs look like they would need to lift their entire hindquarters up above the level of their shoulders just to be able to swing their back legs forward. That would take more energy, and just doesn't look as nice.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I guess I'm confused, once again. My younger dog is built with more angulation behind. The older dog has straighter legs behind, without much angulation.

Both dogs have suspension, but the younger is much more agile.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This is what the article is talking about.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

terrible picture ! 

in the American bred dog the knee is almost under the hip.

in the "average" herding dog the knee is well forward of the hip . The rear is compressed .

Can't make a point as a comparison unless there is an attempt to have similar placement .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> terrible picture !
> 
> in the American bred dog the knee is almost under the hip.
> 
> ...


Do you have a better side by side illustration?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

comparisons within one breed, the German shepherd.
THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG

shows 3 dogs each in 3 illustrations - one standing square, one posed or stacked, and one in motion 

plus a critique discussing the total conformation and implications


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

3 working line dogs with straight backs and no flat withers or sway backs. 2 were VA1 in their day and phenomenal movers. The old photo was probably as close to the founder's ideal as any dog. The female was one of mine. Very balanced moving dog. No extremes.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you for the better illustrations and the photos.

I noticed that there have been several revisions to the original SV standard. Several after Max was long out of the picture. Does anyone know then the 120 degree angle on the upper and lower leg and the 23 degree angle for the croup came in?

It seems as though that would be the major departure point from the old original type to what is considered the correct type today.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

In addition to the excellent examples Lisa provided , including her female Unika , and ideal VA 1 Bodo Lierberg (Bernd in same league) , I would add other classics of the era before the Martin brothers 



Marko Cellerland VA 1 
and his sons 





his son Kai Silberbrand VA 1











V Marko Abtei-Eck

representing "American" dogs same era -- GV 









Yoncalla's Mike

they are on the same page


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I find it hard to see why this stack came into vogue.

To my uneducated mind I see this will to put a dog into a pose, is a huge contributor to breeding for this excessive angulation.

So everybody who participates in this dog beauty completion contributes to the issues imo.

People who use a more natural stance and prove the dog as a working dog are doing more for the breed. 

Am I totally wrong here. Any old photo will show a less extreme stance and a natural pose of the dog ready for action. Now it's more like ready to say 'cheese'.

That dog with all the trophies(Ed Frawley's example) does look like it's right leg is lying on the ground, not standing on the foot. 

Are people who focus on a great stack really doing something good for the breed? 

Why does a dog need to be taught how to stack? 

Whats wrong with how a dog naturally stands?

Is there any other breed which focuses so much on how a dog looks/poses in a photo?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I find it hard to see why this stack came into vogue"

which stack?

The stack has nothing to do with the conformation.
All dogs , and horses are posed to show off their good points and to provide a common base-line to compare them against a standard.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

carmspack said:


> "
> All dogs , and horses are posed to show off their good points and to provide a common base-line to compare them against a standard.


...and cats, cattle, bunnies...I can't think of any animal that's presented for evaluation that isn't stacked in some way.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I know ! even budgies -- took a friend to a local annual cage bird fanciers show and their were standard poses of big headed English budgies and even the different varieties of fancy pigeons.

the pose isn't the problem it is what people willingly and erroneously embrace as an ideal -- for ego (winning) for commerce (selling) and for just being welcomed into the group (acceptance) .

well all fine and dandy but that does the breed no good.

von Stephanitz wasn't a pleaser -- he cleared the rings of faulty dogs to get back to a vision.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I 'm asking about the one foot forward stack. 

Rarely I can see a dog stand like that naturally.

Why does a GSD have to stack like that when we don't see other breeds doing it at shows? Or are there numerous dogs that have to do it?

I believe it came about to show an athletic dog ready for action, but today we see it from show dogs.

I guess I'l throw these questions back out there.



> Are people who focus on a great stack really doing something good for the breed?
> 
> Why does a dog need to be taught how to stack?
> 
> Whats wrong with how a dog naturally stands?


Any one agree or disagree with this


> Any old photo will show a less extreme stance and a natural pose of the dog ready for action. Now it's more like ready to say 'cheese'.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> I 'm asking about the one foot forward stack.
> 
> Rarely I can see a dog stand like that naturally.
> 
> ...


I would have agreed with you until a couple of months ago. Mine stands like that naturally now 5 or 6 times a day. She'll be doing something and then something else catches her eye and she'll just stop and strike that pose (like in somebody walking by the house). I think it's just focus, she's "watching". It looks funny because she always has the ball or rubber duck in her mouth when she does it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but they do !

this is a breed that is naturally longer than tall and so the centre of balance is not square.

This is comfortable for them. Now grant you the majority of hand stacked poses are over stretched, the outer leg placed too far back . The hock should be upright not angled -- the pictures I provided show Yoncalla's Mike to be correct in the placement-- the others are pulled too far back


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

lhczth said:


> 3 working line dogs with straight backs and no flat withers or sway backs. 2 were VA1 in their day and phenomenal movers. The old photo was probably as close to the founder's ideal as any dog. The female was one of mine. Very balanced moving dog. No extremes.


Nice


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> but they do !
> 
> this is a breed that is naturally longer than tall and so the centre of balance is not square.
> 
> This is comfortable for them. Now grant you the majority of hand stacked poses are over stretched, the outer leg placed too far back . The hock should be upright not angled -- the pictures I provided show Yoncalla's Mike to be correct in the placement-- the others are pulled too far back


I just finished watching a novice show in Germany on Youtube this morning. The free for all kind where there was like 50 dogs trotting madly around a ring. Several kept falling out of their pose - had trouble holding the balance. They were all froggy dogs. Some of the owners just held them by the tail in the pose to keep them from falling over. Sad


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

MadLab said:


> I 'm asking about the one foot forward stack.
> 
> Rarely I can see a dog stand like that naturally.
> 
> ...


This picture is a natural stack of my male. He was watching children playing football and they got his attention. The second is him just standing on a log and his top line looks completely different.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

d4lilbitz said:


> This picture is a natural stack of my male. He was watching children playing football and they got his attention. The second is him just standing on a log and his top line looks completely different.


Wow. Beautiful dog. I had to take a look at Kavalleri Kennel website after seeing your dog. Page after page of great dogs. Love all the action photos.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I hate the term 'frog' or 'froggy'. Unless they're hopping .. I umm don't think they're frog dogs. Falling out of their stance .. more like novice so they probably wouldn't hold it without restlessly moving .. holding the tail to keep them in place NOT hold them up. . geez.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Right. Post the video. It may have been a puppy class or something else or you just don't understand what is really happening.

And yeah, FYI, as I learned by actually doing it this summer there's a lot of hootin' and hollerin' and running around because they want to see the dogs really move out and be animated. The AKC ring is far more sedate but I ran my behind off for my puppy in that 'free for all' and he did strut his stuff and didn't look like a frog doing it either.

You know what, if you haven't actually tried to learn and do something related to show OR work venues how about you not cast judgements as to what is going on.





Stonevintage said:


> I just finished watching a novice show in Germany on Youtube this morning. The free for all kind where there was like 50 dogs trotting madly around a ring. Several kept falling out of their pose - had trouble holding the balance. *They were all froggy dogs. Some of the owners just held them by the tail in the pose to keep them from falling over. Sad*


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You know what, if you haven't actually tried to learn and do something related to show OR work venues how about you not cast judgements as to what is going on.


:thumbup:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Opposed to Carma who *is* super special. Don't know if it's been posted here...but huge congrats on the fantastic performance you two turned out in the 2015 North Central IPO Regionals. #1! All female team kickin' you know what!  

Wishing you much success in the upcoming SV conformation show too! 



GatorDog said:


> What is special about the two dogs you posted?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

And same to your dog and you for actually "doing it".

AD is not easy either and actually some of the dogs Stoney has pictured as icons of the breed probably would poop out after two miles due to their short strides. 



osito23 said:


> :thumbup:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> And same to your dog and you for actually "doing it".
> 
> AD is not easy either and actually some of the dogs Stoney has pictured as icons of the breed probably would poop out after two miles due to their short strides.


The only pictures I posted here are 1 of my dog and what a litter I looked at had posted of sire, dam & an old photo of Beowolf and an overangulated dog. I posted no photos of icons of the breed. 

Carmspack and Ihczth posted some photos. Perhaps you mean to criticize the dogs they chose as representational of the conversation we were having about the balance article on the Leerburg site? Or perhaps you didn't read the post topic at all. 

These over angulated dogs have been called froggy dogs many times before. I have a right to post my opinion just as much as you do even though you say otherwise.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I put together a few comparison photos a while back that I'll dig up now...same dog, all taken around the same age, completely working lines. Not an extreme dog by any means.










And compared to 1972 Sieger Marko vom Cellerland (born 1968) 











Gwenhwyfair said:


> Opposed to Carma who *is* super special. Don't know if it's been posted here...but huge congrats on the fantastic performance you two turned out in the 2015 North Central IPO Regionals. #1! All female team kickin' you know what!
> 
> Wishing you much success in the upcoming SV conformation show too!


And a **** yes to this :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Pff. Are you trying to say Lisa and Carmen breed "old fashioned straight back" dogs too. 

The pictures you posted and also, to be frank, *some* (not all) WLs in general don't do the ADs because they don't have the conformation for it. I don't know if Carmen or Lisa have ADs on their dogs but from the pics I've looked at they do NOT look like extreme straight/sway backs either.

So much for that little got 'cha attempt. 

The problem here is not the pictures it's that you make incorrect assessments very quickly without having participated or learned *why* a straight back is bad, that a steep (flat croup) is just as detrimental as one which is too steep, that lack of angulation is as bad as over angulation. Why a SV show looks like a *free for all* when it really isn't.

One video came out of show in the UK and then the 'frog dog' label went viral. The problem is now people look at my straight backed, very little angulation rescue dog now and because he's a German Shepherdshe is a frog with HD. 

Rather then casting these aspersions you would be better served asking "Why all the running and hollering at a SV show?" The way I did when I first started learning about it. Yeah it was different but I figured there was a reason so I asked "Why?". 

Back to the main topic, NO GSD breeder, worth their salt, competing in show and sport and work is advertising or breeding for 'straight back' dogs. 

If people want to go off and buy a BYB dog because it has a look they like, fine they can. It's a free market, it's also the sign of breeder that doesn't really work or compete with their dogs. That's not just an opinion either. It's demonstrable by looking at the top kennels in show and work. 



Stonevintage said:


> *The only pictures I posted here are 1 of my dog and what a litter I looked at had posted of sire, dam & an old photo of Beowolf and an overangulated dog*. I posted no photos of icons of the breed.
> 
> Carmspack and Ihczth posted some photos. Perhaps you mean to criticize the dogs they chose as representational of the conversation we were having about the balance article on the Leerburg site? Or perhaps you didn't read the post topic at all.
> 
> These over angulated dogs have been called froggy dogs many times before. I have a right to post my opinion just as much as you do even though you say otherwise.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Now I'm not an expert at the specifics of angulation in GSDs and clearly even among breeders who do compete in show and sport/work there is disagreement.

I do know from my years of studying horses that proper angulation allows for efficiency of movement. 

This is a dog many people who like 'old fashioned straight backs' would would call a 'frog' and 'roach back'. They have no point of comparison except for what they see on the internet and old wives tails (angulation - HD, WLs *never* have HD and so on).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes , I have done 5 ADs - when they were available.
Yes, I did and could do one this moment . Easily . It is not uncommon for me to bike the dogs into our village and back , a return trip of about 18 k's . We are a family of walkers . A 8.2 k trip (5 miles) is a stroll for us, sometimes we go around a second time with a new set of dogs.

I won't have a roach back , I won't have a dog that goose steps , or head bobs , and flings limbs around like a panicked swimmer. Will not.








And compared to 1972 Sieger Marko vom Cellerland (born 1968) 


























Mutz Pelztierfarm 

This is very very wrong . "The pictures you posted and also, to be frank, *some* (not all) WLs in general don't do the ADs because they don't have the conformation for it"

You get to see the real dog when the dogs are asked to WALK , walk loose leash, and change gaits as necessary which a working dog must do .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yet that is a dog that even Carmen has made positive comments about in the past.

The "straight back" BYB guys would say too much angulation. A lot of average dog owners would say 'frog'. You know what though, their dogs will never move like this either.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The question is Stoney, do you have the passion and desire to learn why this dog was "poetry in motion" or not?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Carmen.

There are extremes in WLs with short strides and you know it. I was watching one working and running across an IPO field. His gait looked very stilted. In the horse world my first inclination was, too upright, croup too flat. I didn't say anything because I really don't like to be a know it all so I *asked* someone more knowledgeable then myself. This person confirmed my observation. 

I was careful to NOT include you or your dogs personally, exactly what Stoney was hoping for too.

This is really tired old horse we are beating, because, while I know you don't like showlines, you also don't like the BYB straight back dogs either.

(p.s. ADs are still available. Do they not offer them in Canada anymore?)




carmspack said:


> This is very very wrong . "The pictures you posted and also, to be frank, *some* (not all) WLs in general don't do the ADs because they don't have the conformation for it"
> 
> .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the topic here is the faulty back, roached back, which is claimed to be a model of correctness by some prominent SV judges . It is not correct.

The flat back verbiage in many ads , on many web sites is just that -- verbiage -- words by people using buzz words , the same set that will exploit "good temperament" without having one clue as to what it is .

sure there are working lines with poor conformation .
hope the temperament is good , and the heart or the fire in the belly is good , because all the fabulous conformation and striking colour , can not substitute, can not be a trade off .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The topic is 'Breeding for Straight Back' which morphed into even more nothingness.

We should start a thread on all the WLs with poor conformation and go over that as well _for once_. 

Anyhow, In blue. :thumbup: 



carmspack said:


> the topic here is the faulty back, roached back, which is claimed to be a model of correctness by some prominent SV judges . It is not correct.
> 
> The flat back verbiage in many ads , on many web sites is just that -- verbiage -- words by people using buzz words , the same set that will exploit "good temperament" without having one clue as to what it is .
> 
> ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The question is Stoney, do you have the passion and desire to learn why this dog was "poetry in motion" or not?


You do not know which dogs I think are over angulated or not. Your posts are rambling. I'm still waiting to see which pictures you think I posted that represent my "Icons"? 


I was learning from the article I read, the anatomy examples that I asked Carmen to post and the photographs of examples that were offered. Your posts - so far offer nothing, just anger. Would you like to offer something in the way of looking closer at anatomy and structure? This is how I learn. The conversation was not about Dingo's running or any dog's running for that matter - it was about balance in normal herding activities. This was the focus of the article I was discussing with Carmen. It was about back legs, the stacks and structure in one particular photo that the article used. Another poster simply offered pictures of examples. The diagrams that Carmen offered helped me to see the different structure types with the A,B & C body types that helped when I looked at the photos provided. Why not read the article? I don't understand what your issue is with the photos used and shown as examples for the questions I had. 

The show I mentioned watching this morning in Germany. Again you made assumptions. You don't know what I saw. The reason I called it a free for all had nothing to do with the noise level. It had to do with the sheer number of dogs in a small ring so crowded that they were running along side each other. Some dogs were right on top of each other. Some running fast, some slow, some stopped. Did you notice that I mentioned it was a novice show? 

I will refrain from calling them froggy dogs. I will refer to them as roach backed but personally I think the term roach is worse.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> The conversation was not about Dingo's running or any dog's running for that matter - *it was about balance in normal herding activities*.


 I wish people would quit making assumptions about what dogs can or cannot perform the work of herding based solely on pictures. People can argue about the "flying trot" until they're blue in the face, and that's fine. But if they have no experience with livestock, IMO they cannot judge the _herding_ potential of the dog.
 
I can't tell you how badly I cringe when people look at a photograph of a GSD and announce, "That dog could herd all day!" and "See, that's what a herding dog should look like!" And this is a person that has never set foot on a farm... on a field... at a stockdog trial... or touched a sheep. Never watched what the dog needs to do, to be truly _useful_.

_Some_ dogs need to trot a perimeter all day. _Some_ dogs need to execute a breathless 1/2 mile outrun. _Some_ dogs need to drive stubborn goats into a shed so they can receive vaccinations.

_*Conformation isn't herding.*_

/end rant. I'm tired, I spent four hours watching and working dogs on a sheep farm today.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ugh. Dingo's back is part of the conformation which allows him to move so freely.

The problem is Stoney, there are so many inaccuracies and half truths in what you post, too much to unpack, it's just too time consuming....Gish gallop. 

So just as to the terms; frog dog is generally used to deman SLs and the vast majority of people who toss that term around don't know a darn thing. As for "roach backs" another term tossed around very casually by people who can't identify let alone define what a "true roach" back is.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Can we call you Gwenny now too.

How condesending is that?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> I wish people would quit making assumptions about what dogs can or cannot perform the work of herding based solely on pictures. People can argue about the "flying trot" until they're blue in the face, and that's fine. But if they have no experience with livestock, IMO they cannot judge the _herding_ potential of the dog.
> 
> I can't tell you how badly I cringe when people look at a photograph of a GSD and announce, "That dog could herd all day!" and "See, that's what a herding dog should look like!" And this is a person that has never set foot on a farm... on a field... at a stockdog trial... or touched a sheep. Never watched what the dog needs to do, to be truly _useful_.
> 
> ...


You may want to take a look at the article I was referring to. It's on the Leerburg site and is titled "Balance Problems With the American Show German Shepherd". The author's experience with various types of herding dogs and references to other information is listed under the article. It is not written by Ed Frawley but is a republication from another author who has experience with herding dogs. I found it informative and it was 
something I had not considered before. I looked at images of various herding dogs in action trying to see the back leg structure in action specifically as this is what the article was about. The border collie movements (whole body) amazed me.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

MadLab said:


> Can we call you Gwenny now too.
> 
> How condesending is that?


People have called me Gwenny many times in the past here and I've never had a problem with it.

Stuff like that is unimportant.

So now who is being condescending mad dog?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

My guess would have been you actually as i alluded to by posting.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm just gonna go off now with my roached back frog dogs.....MAD lab.

:gonefishing::lurking:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As far as working lines doing AD.
Burgos' Unika (the female I pictured earlier) SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC She finished the AD so easily the judge said he had never seen a dog do one in that short of a time. Her stride increased and she covered more ground the longer we went. 

SG1 Dejavu zu Treuen Händen IPO3 AWD1 KKL1 (so had to have an AD). Competed it easily. 

Donovan zu Treuen Händen IPO1 TR2 AD Was a total butt head and wasn't thrilled with biking with the person who handled him for me, but he did finish easily. 

SG Elena zu Treuen Händen BH AD CGC Trotted along easily at the same pace with the gal that had a show line female. Of course her, Elena's, father and grandmother were V at *THE* Sieger show. 

I never did Vala because she hated biking. 

The AD is NOT difficult for the dogs and really not that big of a deal. It is more difficult for the handlers. LOL My working dog club and many working dog clubs host AD's and conformation shows. Heck, in my region the regional conformation show is usually hosted by working dog clubs and my working dog club is hosting the Sieger show in 2016. As the new Mid-Eastern Regional Breed Warden I will get to attend the Sieger show and the regional conformation show each year.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Personal attacks from MAD :crazy: lab aside.

Ever notice that primarily two groups who post here are those who have WLs or dogs which are from rescues or breeders who do not compete in show OR work.

People with Showlines, including a moderator get tired of this. Speaking of condescending.

The SLs catch way more negativity then BYB dogs or WLs. WLs are protrayed as being flawless.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> You may want to take a look at the article I was referring to. It's on the Leerburg site and is titled "Balance Problems With the American Show German Shepherd". The author's experience with various types of herding dogs and references to other information is listed under the article. It is not written by Ed Frawley but is a republication from another author who has experience with herding dogs. I found it informative and it was
> something I had not considered before. I looked at images of various herding dogs in action trying to see the back leg structure in action specifically as this is what the article was about. *The border collie movements (whole body) amazed me.*


 Definitely. And I did read the article, I'm a nerdy voracious reader of all kinds of dog related stuff. My comments are not directed at these authors at all. In fact, it's probably because I spend so much time around border collie owners, that I get so annoyed by some GSD owners.

My point is that when conformation comes up, people will inevitably start throwing around "herding" as the culprit, or justification, for every structural decision that pertains to the German Shepherd Dog. The VAST majority of people who make these comments have absolutely zero knowledge about herding.

Imagine if we turned the tables and substituted other dog sports for "herding".

Agility. "With that angulation, I bet that dog can weave all day." Silly.

Obedience. "Check out Dog vom A. He'd obviously be better at heeling than Dog vom B, just look at his structure." Even sillier.

IPO. "Wow, Dog vom A would definitely outscore Dog vom B in tracking, check out his topline." Sillier yet - but this is the kind of comment that people fling around about herding. All. The. Time.

It drives me nuts.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Lisa, some dogs do fail AD. Many don't even attempt it.

Conformation does play a role in this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Personal attacks from MAD :crazy: lab aside.
> 
> Ever notice that primarily two groups who post here are those who have WLs or dogs which are from rescues or breeders who do not compete in show OR work.
> 
> ...


You are joking?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Personal attacks from MAD :crazy: lab aside.
> 
> Ever notice that primarily two groups who post their are those who have WLs or dogs which are from rescues or breeders who do not compete in show OR work.
> 
> People with Showlines, including a moderator get tired of this.


 That definitely wasn't my intent.... I've taken all kinds of trash talk from people, so I certainly sympathize. One of my dogs is an ASL (sire was even US GV a few years back). She's been herding goats, sheep, and geese, for five years. I've dealt with plenty of showline nonsense and snark.

It's actually why I prefer some of the border collie people. If your dog moves the stock, they don't care about lineage.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Personal attacks from MAD :crazy: lab aside.
> 
> Ever notice that primarily two groups who post here are those who have WLs or dogs which are from rescues or breeders who do not compete in show OR work.
> 
> ...


Why are these people proudly displaying their dogs? I can only think that they feel their dog looks like a correct type. I don't think so. It is hard to find anything this obvious out of line in anything but SL.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Nope. But as much as I don't like this thread I don't want to take it too far off topic.



onyx'girl said:


> You are joking?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jane, see above...same old pictures some which have been altered even. How many times have those cruddy pictures been paraded around here? All WGSL. How many times do pictures of poorly conformed WLs get posted over and over?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Jane, see above...same old pictures some which have been altered even. How many times have those cruddy pictures been paraded around here? All WGSL. How many times do pictures of poorly conformed WLs get posted over and over?


You don't like the terminology I used so I changed it, you don't like the term roach. If I can't name what I'm talking about, I decided to show pictures that would leave little to the imagination of what I am talking about. You don't like those either. 

You still have not offered anything as to why these dogs "with the _____ backs are fine and not a problem. Some say movement is restricted and show diagrams and structure analysis to support their beliefs. You offer nothing and say you don't have time to correct all the inaccuracies in my posts. You certainly are making time to discuss a lot. I would call that attack and avoid. Where's the pictures of my "Icons" you say I posted that you have so much trouble with?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and posted by people who cannot tell that those photos have been edited to make the dogs look even worse. There have been many threads about those pictures over and over, debunked too, over and over. Yet like zombies they keep popping back up.

It's O.K. for Stoney to making sweeping negative statements about shows in Germany and that she saw GSDs (or maybe they were another breed of frog and I was assuming) they were ALL froggy dogs. God forbid someone say her dog isn't perfect and beautiful and so on. God forbid we point out that WLs are perfect either.

We get people here on a regular basis who think WLs can't get HD, that they are just THAT much better they are immune to HD. 

The only threads putting down WLs tend to be about too much prey drive. Not the fact they some of them are missing teeth, or move like they are on pogo sticks.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah. Sorry didn't catch this as I was typing. Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to your posts at all. 

Thanks!

:thumbup:



WIBackpacker said:


> That definitely wasn't my intent.... I've taken all kinds of trash talk from people, so I certainly sympathize. One of my dogs is an ASL (sire was even US GV a few years back). She's been herding goats, sheep, and geese, for five years. *I've dealt with plenty of showline nonsense and snark.
> *
> It's actually why I prefer some of the border collie people. If your dog moves the stock, they don't care about lineage.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...and posted by people who cannot tell that those photos have been edited to make the dogs look even worse. There have been many threads about those pictures over and over, debunked too, over and over. Yet like zombies they keep popping back up.
> 
> It's O.K. for Stoney to making sweeping negative statements about shows in Germany and that she saw GSDs (or maybe they were another breed of frog and I was assuming) they were ALL froggy dogs. God forbid someone say her dog isn't perfect and beautiful and so on. God forbid we point out that WLs are perfect either.
> 
> ...


What sweeping negative statements about shows in Germany? I simply said I watched one show this morning. I'm not sure what has you on the band wagon about the things I was discussing with the other posters before you started posting. 

I would like this post to get back on track. After reviewing the body types and looking at the history of revisions on the SV site, I had a question as to when the 120 degree and 23 degree recommendations were adopted by the SV. We were discussing change in body types over the last 30 years. This type of information would be better appreciated.

You keep referring to other posts in the past I know nothing about. This was a very calm informative conversation. You have turned it into an ugly brawl ignoring and insulting other posters including myself. Still you offer nothing to the conversation on these dogs in terms of skeletal structure or body types. Are you trying to deny them out of existance? You are now at the point where you have made several statements regarding my posts that are your imagination gone wild. Do you have dogs that are of this body type? Is that why you are seemingly so personally offended about this problem in the breed?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ya should ask or posted the video and asked.

Instead you deemed ALL of them froggy dogs then try to wiggle out of it. Then you post those old pictures. You retread this topic which you started way back about your dog and a critique you requested and have been defensive since then. Hence this retread thread.

I know all those of us who own those ugly roached back froggy dogs are just being condescending when people keep making negative assumptions about them ad nauseum...

So like I said, I'll just take my roached back frog dogs and....
:gonefishing::lurking:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ya should ask or posted the video and asked.
> 
> Instead you deemed ALL of them froggy dogs then try to wiggle out of it. Then you post those old pictures. You retread this topic which you started way back about your dog and a critique you requested. When the feed back wasn't positive you didn't want to accept it and still don't.
> 
> ...


That'll work. Thank you.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ya should ask or posted the video and asked.
> 
> Instead you deemed ALL of them froggy dogs then try to wiggle out of it. Then you post those old pictures. You retread this topic which you started way back about your dog and a critique you requested and have been defensive since then. Hence this retread thread.
> 
> ...


We're not prejudiced at my house, bring your frog dogs over and we'll play...


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Wait wait wait. I'm feeling kind of left out here, with my American show lines. The roach thing doesn't happen in the ASL. Apparently we just have the frog dog thing? I need clarification. 

No, seriously, not kidding here. I really want to know what is exactly meant by the frog dog reference. Is it movement alone? The croup? The angulation? Is it all showlines, German and American? If I post a video of Carly at a specialty, will someone tell me what about her is "froggy"???


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Somebody really didn't like what I had to say in this thread considering the aggressive PM I just received. Anybody wants to see it can PM me. I shall be reporting it. Further more, if any one disagrees with any of my posts let them speak up in those threads as they happen. It has been suggested I'm a sanctimonious twit. Mabye I am morally superior to some, eh, Gwen!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Or maybe it's pretty accurate. We can't judge these things for our selves now can we.

Don't all agree at once now.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Somebody really didn't like what I had to say in this thread considering the aggressive PM I just received. Anybody wants to see it can PM me. I shall be reporting it. Further more, if any one disagrees with any of my posts let them speak up in those threads as they happen. It has been suggested I'm a sanctimonious twit. Mabye I am morally superior to some, eh, Gwen!


Sorry to hear that. I did appreciate your post and thought you were on target for where the conversation was going. I don't understand what all the underlying current is here. Apparently there have been previous posts on this topic that ended up SL vs WL? That must have been before my time. At any rate, I hope that portion is over.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Stonevintage, my post was not about the thread. It was the manner in which somebody tried to belittle somebody else for no good reason. 

People can be educational or they can try to dismiss others. What is the more productive method? I feel educational would be more productive. 

Look at Carmspacks post. She knows her stuff, speaks her mind but is always respectful. I admire that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Stonevintage, my post was not about the thread. It was the manner in which somebody tried to belittle somebody else for no good reason.
> 
> People can be educational or they can try to dismiss others. What is the more productive method? I feel educational would be more productive.
> 
> Look at Carmspacks post. She knows her stuff, speaks her mind but is always respectful. I admire that.


Yea, I understand. Carmspack gave me a lot of good information in this post and it is much appreciated. If things don't get personal the conversation continues to go on but it is only so long before someone wanting to take things to a personal level becomes obvious to everyone. What happened here is that you got in the way of the charging bull and so it came after you. Isn't it strange that I was the target but you got the PM? Oh well, I think that portion of our evenings presentation is over. Tomorrow is another day. Thanks!


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