# Would she protect me?



## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi 
I adopted Mazzy in March... she is prob under 18 months... the shelter had her listed at 2 , but her behavior suggests differently.. she was also not spade.. but had not had puppies at all... she also had no training and still bites at hands ect.... anyway we are working on that.... So I realize I have not had her very long... but we are developing a very strong bond... she appears to respect me as alpha and very rarely ignores a command... unless she is distracted.. but again .. work in progress.... she is my first purebred Shepherd.. I have had two mixes in the past... So tonight. on our way back from her last night at class.. she graduated...  I stopped to get gas and the went inside the convenience store to use the bathroom and get a snack.. when I came back out to the car I was sitting there eating my snack when this low life looking guy approached my car.. I had windows up and doors locked... he started motioning to me asking me if I would unroll the window down and then motioned if I had a cigarette... I said , through the window .. No, I don't smoke... he looked at me really weird... I mean creepy looking.... put it this way if I had not been in my car he would have scared the %$#@ out of me.. he was just staring at me with this look that I cant describe... and would rather not .. when the mgr of the store came out and started yelling at him... told him to get off of the property or she would call the police.. he left ... so I asked her about him and she said he is not a good guy ... and that was all she would volunteer about him.. anyway I started my car and left.. Mazzy did not react to him at all... infact she wagged her tail at the manager... which is fine she is a very friendly dog ( almost too friendly) but should she not have sensed something weird about the guy??? I mean it was very brief but he was so strange... his look is what scared me , he never got violent or loud.. but the look in his eyes said the potential was definitely there.... Any opinion on this...? I mean should I join a Schutzhund club... I am not looking for a over the top dog... but to be honest my male Golden that I had years ago.. would have growled at the guy.. and my Shep x ... would have come completely unglued at a situation like this... I love Mazzy and she has a home for life... but I am curious as to why there was not a reaction.... any Ideas?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Dont have time for a full reply to all aspects (dumb job lol) but I wanted to say lack of barking does not necessarily mean lack of judgement, awareness. Did she wag her tail happily at the guy or just the manager? 

Also, my default answer to "should I join a Schutzhund Club" is always yes. Even if you go once or twice and get some input. 

Forget the Alpha word too. I'm sure others here will elaborate. Glad to hear you and Mazzy are bonding!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It's an unfortunate fact that some GSDs now have more of a Golden retriever personality. My first GSD had pretty much zero protective instincts.


That being said, in a dangerous situation, the dog often picks up on its owner's emotions (fear) and sometimes that will be enough to trigger a normally non-aggressive dog to attack. But there is no knowing for sure, and you cannot stake your life on it.

Schutzhund training will help you bond with your dog as you learn the different routines. However, it is NOT meant to teach your dog to be a protection dog. Protection in schutzhund is done more out of prey drive: the dog is after the sleeve, and sees it as a toy/prey. Rarely, a dog will be more focused on the decoy instead. It MAY increase your dog's wariness towards strangers, it may not. Wariness of strangers is more of a genetic trait - that's why golden retrievers, for example, are different from GSDs. If the trait is there, it may still come out as you and your dog develop a bond. What schutzhund training will do for sure is give you more control over your dog, and make it a better dog to be around both in the home and in public. It will also give you and your dog a job, something to work towards, and a healthy outlet for his natural drives.

Doing personal protection with your dog is not something I'd recommend for a newcomer to training. There are a lot of shysters out there who are all too willing to take your money, and have no idea how to train dogs. At worst, you may wind up with a ruined dog that is afraid of strangers. At best, you may have a dog that will bite, but will go after the delivery person or the postman or your best friend walking up to the house to visit. Having a protection trained dog is a HUGE responsibility, and in our sue-happy society, also a huge liability! 

If you are REALLY intent on teaching your dog to protect you, and decide to join a schutzhund club, hopefully club members can refer you to a reputable trainer who can help you out. Even teaching a dog to bark in a situation like the one you were in above can be a huge deterrent. It's not always necessary to teach the dog to actually attack.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Don't judge your dog off this one occasion.....I'm guessing i'll be in the minority here....we've had nine GSDs....there's no doubt in my mind...given the right circumstances all of them would die for any family member if asked too......but they all were different in the way they decided what was a threat....some were very quick to growl-rumble or bark... in your (the OPs) situation... some would have been chewing on the door glass more or less....the three best had one thing in common---they were the least vocal....but they'd access a situation all on their own and decide when they needed to be between myself and/or my wife and a stranger or what ever they perceived to be a threat at a given time Since you haven't had Mazzy that long...I'm curious ...how is she around the house with strangers...mailmen---delivery people etc ??---If you've never seen her excited...wanting to defend you--your home or property---maybe she really is that completely laid back....I'll say again I woudn't judge her solely from this one time.....I'll finish with this...you mentioned "Alpha"---that's Taboo on this forum----but not to me---the dogs I've owned clearly recognize a "hierarchy or pecking order"...they typically wait to see how I react....before deciding how they'll react....they respond differently when i'm gone and my wife is alone....they're more protective also when she's walking them then when we both are...Again it's hard for me to imagine a GSD being totally docile in all circumstances.....but i'm basing that on dogs we've owned


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are german shepherds that don’t have protection instincts or instincts strong enough to carry through. There is a big responsibility that goes along with those instincts. She is young still and and you did just adopt her so i to would not discount her yet. She could just have a higher threshold- I take it she was not wagging her tail at the creep.glad your safe!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Dang. That sounds like some coocooloo homeless guy. If That happened to Inga and I she would have hit the glass showing the two inch fangs. She didn't used to be like that. Last summer in Oregon I was at the laundromat and Inga was in the back of the truck. I looked out and saw two homeless guys approaching holding something out to her. (drugs? poison?) She was just looking at them. I yelled Hey! Get away from my dog! She looked at me, then at them, then started in with the the big girl bark. Ever since she has been bum reactive. On the west coast, this is a good thing.


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## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi .. thanks for your reply...  she greets everyone with a wag ears back ect.....I am home when this happens.. she is not a barker my sister and I live together and her chi barks far more than Mazzy. I live in a condo so she does not have access to a large yard (unfortunately) she has barked at unknown situations twice.... both times at night and ran to the window in my bedroom... 2nd floor window.. I did not see anyone... but I praised her well.. I live in a fairly busy area so I am going to guess some random person walking by....Also one night ( this was her first week with me ) I had her out on leash to go to the bathroom and this guy came out with his dog as well and I think surprised her ( and me) she growled but did nothing else... but it may have been the dog since she is a little leash reactive to dogs she does not know... (we are working on that as well) she is fine off leash...


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## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

LOL..... yep. this was in Fife Wa.... Tacoma is bad except for the north end... Seattle is out of control..even at Pike Place sad to say.... as far as bums..ect.... Thanks for your reply ... to be honest she was behind me when the weirdo approached... I dont know if she wagged her tail... I just heard nothing from her... she did wag her tail at the manager , but I had unrolled my window at that point.. and the manager acknowledged her... the weirdo did not..


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## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

I actually dont want a protection trained dog.. but was just curious at her non reaction.... the local German Shepherd club is doing a temperament test in July .. I think I am going to attend with her.... mainly curious about her reaction to the aggressive stranger part of the test.... will post results !!


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## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

Always fun to try to do things at work... lol been there... but thanks for reaching out... I may try a local club for imput... def going to have her temperament tested... local club offering this in July.. I was so focused on the guy I did not see her reaction .. she was behind the drivers seat... I had unrolled my window for mgr.. and mgr acknowledged her so she def wagged her tail..


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, the temperament test should show you what you want to know!

I had my Showline female tested. She is also my hearing ear dog, so I don't want her going after random strangers in public!

When the 3 shots were fired, she wanted to go behind the blind to see where the were coming from. When the bad guy came out yelling and pounding the ground with a stick, she took a half step backwards in surprise, then looked up at me, as if to ask, "Hey, do I need to worry about him?" I showed no reaction, so she just continued to watch him closely until he disappeared.

The tester said she was the perfect dog for what I was using her for! He's the president of a local schutzhund club, so I trust his judgement.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I can't speak for everyone but for me it isn't that I don't believe in alpha's it's that the term gets misused. Most canines live in family groups and while there is an "alpha" it's usually actually a female, the mother of younger pack members and she seldom rules by throwing her weight around but rather is accorded a maternal respect. Alpha males are in reality the equivalent of her hired muscle. She chooses the den site and decides who her mate will be. She generally eats first, because she has pups to feed not because she's pushy. It's a survival thing not a dominance thing. 
Domestic dogs who would fill alpha positions are not the noisy, pushy, bully ones. They are the ones who are calm and quiet and who other dogs gravitate to and defer to. 
The reason Alpha theory doesn't work between humans and dogs is because A) dogs are born with positional personalities and B) We are not dogs. 
Trainers citing alpha type training are ill informed and their technics can do more harm then good.

With regards to your dog, she may protect you and she may not. Don't discount the quiet ones and don't assume her easy going nature will hold under a threat. I have long been of the belief that any loved dog who is bonded to their family will do their utmost to defend them.
But also don't assume that any GSD will show protective instinct. In BYB dogs especially the overwhelming genetic hold over seems to be herding, not biting.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

We do an alpha-like thing. Humans are dominant. Its not alpha rolling and meanness dominance, its that Nothing In Life Is Free. She is required to do something to get something. Training happens every time we go out and she works for praise and release (lets go and be a dog). She can't go out the door ahead of us, she waits for further instruction. She can't get on the furniture. She eats after we do (usually). We all enjoy ice cream and strawberries/peanut butter bone together after dinner, however. I think this is refered to as pack structure.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

When I was a youngster I used to work in a kennel,when the boss left of a night,me and a friend used to see what a lot of these dogs reactions were to the guy walking them (some were boarded 5 days a week year round,so knew us well) being challenged/shouted at/approached aggressively by a man in a balaclava carrying a stick, while on their final walk of the night.

We done this with probably 100's of dogs in the time I was there,if the dog wasn't a dog trained for it/used in security (many were) it was very rare they rose to the challenge.

Most were just pets,and of those pets I found the best by a clear margin were terriers,mastiffs and Rottweilers.

Maybe with their owners on the other end of the lead,or on their own property they'd be different,all I know is what I seen myself.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Digs1 said:


> When I was a youngster I used to work in a kennel,when the boss left of a night,me and a friend used to see what a lot of these dogs reactions were to the guy walking them (some were boarded 5 days a week year round,so knew us well) being challenged/shouted at/approached aggressively by a man in a balaclava carrying a stick, while on their final walk of the night.
> 
> We done this with probably 100's of dogs in the time I was there,if the dog wasn't a dog trained for it/used in security (many were) it was very rare they rose to the challenge.
> 
> ...


No offence but if I was paying to board my dog and someone pulled this crap with it there would be **** to pay. It's irresponsible and potentially damaging. It serves no real purpose and could have horrible consequences.
My trained dog would stroll happily with someone else but saw no earthly reason to do anything more. We experimented a few times and couldn't even get her to do building checks/check doors for another handler.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hayang said:


> Always fun to try to do things at work... lol been there... but thanks for reaching out... I may try a local club for imput... def going to have her temperament tested... local club offering this in July.. I was so focused on the guy I did not see her reaction .. she was behind the drivers seat... I had unrolled my window for mgr.. and mgr acknowledged her so she def wagged her tail..


The temperament test is always interesting, and I think its worth doing. If you want to try training in IPO, give it a try if you have access and have fun with it, but remember its a club getting together to do something they enjoy and have in common. Whether or not someone wants to give their time helping you figure things out with your dog? They may, they may not.

As far as will she protect you? As a general statement, I'd say no. She would have shown it with that stranger and with the manager. People can probably give examples of the dog that differentiates between threat and non threat, so they kiss babies and bite bad guys, but what you are more likely to see is the dog who is willing to confront the threat, will show that in any similar circumstance. She wouldn't distinguish between one stranger and another that easily.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> No offence but if I was paying to board my dog and someone pulled this crap with it there would be **** to pay. It's irresponsible and potentially damaging. It serves no real purpose and could have horrible consequences.
> My trained dog would stroll happily with someone else but saw no earthly reason to do anything more. We experimented a few times and couldn't even get her to do building checks/check doors for another handler.


We were young and naive,though we weren't cruel to the dogs and backed off straight away if the dog showed it was scared through it's bark or body language.

The dogs almost all felt threatened themselves to a degree and the vast majority wanted to get out of there and most of the others didn't even realise the man approaching while shouting and banging a stick around was a threat.

There's no point in lying to ourselves and thinking you have a security measure when in reality it'll be heading for the hills at the first sign of a real threat or stood around wagging it's tail.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Wow and all these years I've been walking around with this false sense of security.....I'm amazed how much I can learn here OR get a good laugh out of...:laugh2:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hayang said:


> I actually dont want a protection trained dog.. but was just curious at her non reaction.... the local German Shepherd club is doing a temperament test in July .. I think I am going to attend with her.... mainly curious about her reaction to the aggressive stranger part of the test.... will post results !!


I taught one of my dogs to bark aggressively on a signal from me. It was useful if I was walking around at night and just didn't like the looks of something. Basically all I did was made a quiet "Tsst" sound and whether she could see a threat or not she would light up. A different bark then the "speak" command and she would continue until given a command to quiet. We shaped and marked the behavior initially by showing her a threat. 
Most undesirable company will depart when faced with an aggressive sounding dog, and the cue was quiet enough that no one could really hear it accept the dog. It's really just a trick but a useful one for a deterrent.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Rather than zeroing in on what you see as a negative (possible lack of protective instinct, although you really don’t know at this point) work with the positives. What Mazzy has shown you (from your post) is she’s trainable and apparently not reactive or nervous around strangers. Consider those qualities a plus because they are much easier to live with than a dog that’s reactive, timid etc. 

The longer Mazzy lives with you the stronger your bond will become and while she may never really “protect” you in the sense of having the nerves to take a kick to the head from a stranger and keep on attacking, that doesn’t mean she won’t develop and grow, start to bark at strangers on your property etc. At this point in time you really don’t know what she is or isn’t capable of.

If you really needed a dog for protection you probably wouldn’t have gotten Mazzy to begin with. Keep training, building the bond and most of all, have fun with her. She's going to be what she's meant to be. :smile2:


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Shanes' Dad said:


> Wow and all these years I've been walking around with this false sense of security.....I'm amazed how much I can learn here OR get a good laugh out of...:laugh2:


Well I'm glad I give you a laugh.

I hope you never find out if an untrained dog will protect you if you're attacked,I also hope you don't rely on that being the case and take other precautions that you (unlike me) are blessed to be able to exercise.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Digs1 said:


> Well I'm glad I give you a laugh.
> 
> I hope you never find out if an untrained dog will protect you if you're attacked,I also hope you don't rely on that being the case and take other precautions that you (unlike me) are blessed to be able to exercise.


My untrained, and very fearful, dog did protect me as a matter of fact. Just recently and absolutely appropriately. And she is not the first one to do so. 
When I was a child my YORKSHIRE TERRIER responded with perfection to a very serious threat to my person, and just about a year before that successfully deterred a break in attempt while we were out. My poodle also defended me as a child, and a stray dog that adopted me as a street kid proved invaluable in defense of my pre-adolescent self. My Great Dane, a breed known for overtly friendly behavior, responded with unmatched fury when my door was kicked in. I can state beyond a doubt that an angry Dane is not a dog I would want to face.

Not one of these dogs had any background or training for protection and ALL rose to the occasion when the person they loved was threatened.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)




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## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

lol that's AWESOME


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## Hayang (Feb 17, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I taught one of my dogs to bark aggressively on a signal from me. It was useful if I was walking around at night and just didn't like the looks of something. Basically all I did was made a quiet "Tsst" sound and whether she could see a threat or not she would light up. A different bark then the "speak" command and she would continue until given a command to quiet. We shaped and marked the behavior initially by showing her a threat.
> Most undesirable company will depart when faced with an aggressive sounding dog, and the cue was quiet enough that no one could really hear it accept the dog. It's really just a trick but a useful one for a deterrent.


How is this behavior trained? And thx for everyone's input... I was also thinking that because I was locked safely in my car I may not have shown much fear..... had I been outside of the car... different story...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Hayang said:


> How is this behavior trained? And thx for everyone's input... I was also thinking that because I was locked safely in my car I may not have shown much fear..... had I been outside of the car... different story...


We basically just ticked her off and as soon as she started roaring I would mark the behavior and reward. Depending on the dog this may be really stressful so know your dog. 
In detail, I had someone approach me menacingly at a bit of a distance and I would point at them and wait for the defensive barking to start and then immediately mark the behavior and reward. It took me just a few times and as soon as I pointed she would start. Then we added the noise cue, faded out the pointing and the visible threat. All told it took me about 2 days to teach it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Digs1 said:


> Well I'm glad I give you a laugh.
> 
> I hope you never find out if an untrained dog will protect you if you're attacked,I also hope you don't rely on that being the case and take other precautions that you (unlike me) are blessed to be able to exercise.


I have to think what you were seeing was self preservation in the dogs you experimented with. There was no territory, owner to defend, female in heat, puppies, food, etc., involved. Sometimes it is better to run to fight another day when there is no reason to fight and risk injury. 

On the other hand, I do agree with you that most dogs, regardless of breed, would not defend their owners, at least not without some training.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have to think what you were seeing was self preservation in the dogs you experimented with. There was no territory, owner to defend, female in heat, puppies, food, etc., involved. Sometimes it is better to run to fight another day when there is no reason to fight and risk injury.
> 
> On the other hand, I do agree with you that most dogs, regardless of breed, would not defend their owners, at least not without some training.


Maybe the owner's presence and familiar surroundings would have inspired some courage,but maybe not.

An untrained,untried pet dog is very far from a reliable security measure,it's very irresponsible to suggest otherwise.
The answer to this thread's question is no,take other precautions.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Dogs protecting their homes


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Digs1 said:


> Maybe the owner's presence and familiar surroundings would have inspired some courage,but maybe not.
> 
> An untrained,untried pet dog is very far from a reliable security measure,it's very irresponsible to suggest otherwise.
> The answer to this thread's question is no,take other precautions.


What you saw had nothing to do with courage or a lack thereof. The dog had no reason to start a fight. To do so would fly in the face of self preservation. Most dogs do not fight anything, including other animals, just because they can. Most need a reason, real or perceived, to act without training. Anything else is simply not normal dog behavior. 

Elsewise, I did agree with you that most dogs would not protect.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What you saw had nothing to do with courage or a lack thereof. The dog had no reason to start a fight. To do so would fly in the face of self preservation. Most dogs do not fight anything, including other animals, just because they can. Most need a reason, real or perceived, to act without training. Anything else is simply not normal dog behavior.
> 
> Elsewise, I did agree with you that most dogs would not protect.


Well I've wasted a lot of time breaking all of my dogs to stock,deer and cats over the years.
Even pretty much every working collie I've ever known must not be normal,every one's been mad for stray cats and foxes.

It's called 'drive'.

Like all mammals,unless they're conditioned to react otherwise,under pressure some dogs are very much predisposed to fight,while some run away and others just flounder,no logic or thought required on their part.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Digs1 said:


> Well I've wasted a lot of time breaking all of my dogs to stock,deer and cats over the years.
> Even pretty much every working collie I've ever known must not be normal,every one's been mad for stray cats and foxes.
> 
> It's called 'drive'.
> ...


Drive means random, sudden, and unprovoked aggression? I think not.

None of my dogs ever bothered stock, fox or deer, and only a handful are bothered by cats. I have had Collies and they were nothing but mild mannered and gentle, 100% trustworthy with other animals straight out of the box, no training necessary. Maybe it has a lot to do with the type of dogs we are talking about. We are still talking German Shepherds, right? Breed does matter.

Mother nature has instilled survival skills in mammals, fight, flight or freeze. Under pressure some dogs will fight, some will run, some will freeze, it all depends on the dog's perception of threat as well as its constitution. 

A dog that fights without provocation, such as attacking an odd guy acting funny on neutral territory, when the dog has no "dog in the fight", is not what most would consider a good companion animal, and certainly not a good protection dog. Who needs a dog that will attack because a mentally or physically disabled person is approaching making scary noises and moves?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Digs1 said:


> Well I've wasted a lot of time breaking all of my dogs to stock,deer and cats over the years.
> Even pretty much every working collie I've ever known must not be normal,every one's been mad for stray cats and foxes.
> 
> It's called 'drive'.
> ...


Hunting has nothing to do with defense. I cannot see how chasing stray cats equates to protecting it's owner.

And the video that was posted of the dogs protecting a house also has not much to do with protection. Since dogs place literally zero value on electronics, cash or jewellery what on earth would they be protecting?


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Digs1 said:


> Well I'm glad I give you a laugh.
> 
> I hope you never find out if an untrained dog will protect you if you're attacked,I also hope you don't rely on that being the case and take other precautions that you (unlike me) are blessed to be able to exercise.


 I'll use your words here.......in fact I'm a "precaution" collector....I've been a member of a local "precaution" club for near 30 years in fact some folks would say they're better with their "precautions" because they know me....next thing.....approx 40 years ago I took up Tai Kwon Do--competed in AAU tournaments for more than 3 years...I was no Chuck Norris but I was competent.


Two dogs I've had come to mind when I think protection----first was Baron a Dobe/GSD mix we got from the SPCA when I was a child.of 12...fast forward 2 years ....I was about 14 years old....one evening I was alone doing homework....my parents were visiting church friends....someone knocked at the front door....me being young and dumb opened the door....someone holding a "precaution" was coming in......Baron who hadn't said a word other than a couple barks when this jerk knocked...pushed me aside and took this clown off the front steps and out into the yard.....Baron roaring and the bozo with the "precaution" screaming....when I got up and called Baron to me he brought me a piece of a coat sleeve....the person who owned the coat...dropped his "precaution" and hauled butt up the street (he sure knew a lot of 4 letter words) getting most of our neighbors outside....if the police ever actually caught the guy...we never knew....btw other than obedience that I'd taught Baron---he was untrained
Second dog was Linus a purebred GSD....X police dog out of Texas....I've told his story elsewhere in a thread I started on this forum...I won't rehash that here.....every one I've owned as i said in a previous post have been very protective of their "person" and I'm convinced would in fact give up their lives for me or my family...all my dogs except for Linus have been household pets....not kept in a crate--a pen--a kennel--a run or my backyard most of their lives......What have I done that apparently makes me fairly unique on this GSD forum....I don't just throw around the term "bonding with the dog"...because it's politically correct and popular here ....I've Actually Lived It !!!....from day one with the dogs we've had.....I've started a bonding process.....that folks is what brings out their natural instincts to defend.....those of you that know what I mean it's simple ....you know what I mean because you've lived it...period....for those who don't know... i could never make you understand and that's because you haven't lived it...and that's a shame.


I'll finish with this and I've said it many many times in my life....if I was left alone on a island--a desert--middle of a forest or a hostile foreign country or city and I could choose one and only one of three things to have with me....first a "precaution" in my hand....second any ability I may or may not have with my hands or feet (yes i'm in my sixties now.... so it's a moot point really)......OR and here it is folks... my pick of the dogs I've owned.....I'll take a GSD every time because I know that's how I'd have the best chance of making it through and out the other side alive......period


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

In the eighties when life was fun and kids were free to their own demise all day long - my friends shepherd mix mostly shepherd- saved our butts numerous times from serious trouble not to mention their home from a break in. My aunt owned a Shepherd and much the same saved her butt from some kooks. No training but some dogs have that fight in them it’s natural. One reason why I was smitten with the breed. It is True training - with highly reputable trainer -would help the dogs out more, but even so,some dogs seem to follow their instincts if they have it. It is also true some dogs would not do anything or hide if a challenge arose. My mom’s, friends -relative had a intruder come into their home mid day and while she was home and took the family’s baby with the mom unaware -until she heard all the commotion from their family pet - a Rottweiler or a Doberman - who was attacking the man who tried to leave the yard. The dog would not let him leave with the baby.
That dog saved the day. Can never underestimate a pet they are so much more.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I had a very seasoned K9 police handler tell me, for the most part, dogs do not REALLY want to bite humans. But given the right set of genetics, they can be taught.

I have no doubt, that although my 2 bark ferociously, if I wasn't home, they wouldn't fend off any robber.

I also have seen them get pretty serious if they feel I am in danger. Maybe they're protecting the food source! LOL!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

gsdluvr said:


> I had a very seasoned K9 police handler tell me, for the most part, dogs do not REALLY want to bite humans. But given the right set of genetics, they can be taught.
> 
> I have no doubt, that although my 2 bark ferociously, if I wasn't home, they wouldn't fend off any robber.
> 
> I also have seen them get pretty serious if they feel I am in danger. *Maybe they're protecting the food source!* LOL!


People get mad at me when I tell them that essentially personal protection is resource guarding. :laugh2:


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

@Sabis mom >>:grin2::grin2:


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I think I will set up Dig's teenage boys at the kennel test on Inga. I would like to see how she reacts to gunshots, then an unknown weirdo appearing in dim light, shouting and hitting the ground with a stick. I would seriously like to know what she would do (on a long line of course).


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Hunting has nothing to do with defense. I cannot see how chasing stray cats equates to protecting it's owner.
> 
> And the video that was posted of the dogs protecting a house also has not much to do with protection. Since dogs place literally zero value on electronics, cash or jewellery what on earth would they be protecting?


Those dogs in the video were not German Shepherds, a breed originally bred to watch over and protect the flock from thieves and wolves and also the family home at night. If I set up the above weirdo test I mentioned, it would be interesting to have the guy come into the house when we are not there. I could ask a helpful rancher neighbor who knows dogs and animals well. I think he would do this. I would like to know how she would react. (tied on a line so she could not bite him of course). 

I have twice seen Inga show defensive aggression. She was held back by the collar and went up walking forward on her hind legs, pulling me forward with a bark that was like a roar. She removed a bear and another time strange men from the yard. She was held back those times. I doubt she would really have bitten the men. I think she has bite inhibition from biting a human, I hope so anyway. And I hope she has enough sense not to bite a bear. Bears run off. This one did.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Shanes' Dad said:


> What have I done that apparently makes me fairly unique on this GSD forum....I don't just throw around the term "bonding with the dog"...because it's politically correct and popular here ....I've Actually Lived It !!!....from day one with the dogs we've had.....I've started a bonding process.....that folks is what brings out their natural instincts to defend.....those of you that know what I mean it's simple ....you know what I mean because you've lived it...period....for those who don't know... i could never make you understand and that's because you haven't lived it...and that's a shame.


Well said! I have thought about this topic a lot, especially after seeing all the problems and problem behaviors people report having with their dogs, the key element missing often is a strong bond between the owner and the dog. Though some people seem to just have this ability to bond with animals inherently, for others it takes time and a good animal to "show" them what it means, or can mean, and they have to be receptive enough to learn from the experience. It truly makes all the difference!


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Drive means random, sudden, and unprovoked aggression? I think not.
> 
> None of my dogs ever bothered stock, fox or deer, and only a handful are bothered by cats. I have had Collies and they were nothing but mild mannered and gentle, 100% trustworthy with other animals straight out of the box, no training necessary. Maybe it has a lot to do with the type of dogs we are talking about. We are still talking German Shepherds, right? Breed does matter.
> 
> ...


No drive feeds a reaction to a stimulus,like a threat or a prey animal running away,or even a ball being thrown.

If you think a highly driven dog,won't chase sheep without being broken to them,then I hope you keep your dogs on lead around stock,because lots of people who think that end up with a dog full of shot.

There's a big difference between acting 'funny' and approaching in a threatening way,especially when there's a lead attached and obvious way out.
There's nothing wrong with a dog that won't defend you,as long as you're realistic about it.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I think I will set up Dig's teenage boys at the kennel test on Inga. I would like to see how she reacts to gunshots, then an unknown weirdo appearing in dim light, shouting and hitting the ground with a stick. I would seriously like to know what she would do (on a long line of course).


Unfortunately I'm not a teenage boy anymore,I bet you could set up a proper test with a good trainer though.
We were just young,daft dog crazy kids,you'll have to shell out for a pro!

We also trained a lot in agility and obedience unbeknown to their owners,I bet if any of those guys took their dogs to agility afterwards they'd think they had a superstar on their very first lesson.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Shanes' Dad said:


> I'll use your words here.......in fact I'm a "precaution" collector....I've been a member of a local "precaution" club for near 30 years in fact some folks would say they're better with their "precautions" because they know me....next thing.....approx 40 years ago I took up Tai Kwon Do--competed in AAU tournaments for more than 3 years...I was no Chuck Norris but I was competent.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll finish with this and I've said it many many times in my life....if I was left alone on a island--a desert--middle of a forest or a hostile foreign country or city and I could choose one and only one of three things to have with me....first a "precaution" in my hand....second any ability I may or may not have with my hands or feet (yes i'm in my sixties now.... so it's a moot point really)......OR and here it is folks... my pick of the dogs I've owned.....I'll take a GSD every time because I know that's how I'd have the best chance of making it through and out the other side alive......period


Well I'm glad to hear it,I don't have that right I can't even carry a stick or pepper spray.
I've been stabbed twice,attacked with bats,had a brick sunk into had my head,been jumped on by groups of people several times,even got chased through a busy town by a guy with a machete once.

So I think the false confidence of thinking but not KNOWING your dog will protect you is potentially very dangerous,especially for a woman.

I think I'd punt for a good tough lurcher in the wild (maybe a GSD or Mal x) in the hostile area...give me an L85 any day!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Digs1 said:


> No drive feeds a reaction to a stimulus,like a threat or a prey animal running away,or even a ball being thrown.
> 
> If you think a highly driven dog,won't chase sheep without being broken to them,then I hope you keep your dogs on lead around stock,because lots of people who think that end up with a dog full of shot.
> 
> ...


Drives are the unconscious, biological impulses that carry out important vital functions usually based in self preservation for most animals although there are outliers and even some animals that man has selectively bred away from these traits. Food drive, sex drive, play drive, hunt drive, etc., are all examples of most dogs' inherent will to survive, not a will to wantonly kill other animals or harm people.

I am not sure where you are getting these animal aggressive, killer German Shepherds, but none of my dogs have yet to show any interest, let alone aggression, towards horses or cattle and I have owned about thirty German Shepherds in my lifetime. None have met sheep but I would think that any German Shepherd who demonstrates an innate desire to slaughter sheep probably does not fall within the realm of well bred, after all, they are a sheep herding breed. 

Your comments remind me of a thread on another forum where some people were agreeing with you about cattle / stock dogs killing other farm animals. They thought it was normal dog behavior too. Turns out they were mixing their stock / cattle dogs with game bred dogs to increase "strength" and it was those crosses responsible for the animal aggressive behavior that is not typical of cattle or shepherd dog types by nature.

There is little difference between a physically challenged person moving oddly and making strange vocal noises vs the behavior of some autistic children vs that of a person moving in a threatening way such a as plumber with a pipe wrench in hand vs that of a very drunk but friendly person. Then you have the silent and smooth movements of most thugs with real intent to harm that don't announce their intentions and it is them I have found to be the most dangerous while the others are non issues.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I don't want to see how Inga would behave on some Schutzhund course. I want to see how she behaves on her own territory 

When she was a pup we must have suppressed almost all the prey drive out of her. She was NOT allowed to chase or even look hard at chickens or calves. No chasing or even moving toward deer and now wild hog and rabbit chasing too is banned. She does know the Get Him! command, which amounts to running toward my distant husband as he ducks and dodges and tries to hide, it is a joke. It also means try to dig up that gopher. Bring Him means bring the pony by his rope. Its one of her circus tricks. It would be interesting to see Inga's reaction to sheep because she has never seen sheep either. Although she will see sheep this summer in Oregon as two sheep will come live on the place.

Digs I happen to know used to use Greyhound crossbreds for coursing and hunting game. I don't know what they were crossed with- various breeds. I understand their prey drive was quite intense. I was interested because a good dog that I once had one was a Greyhound/GSD cross. I coursed on horseback with him and other sight hound breeds but they all showed no interest in livestock, perhaps because they were raised with stock. They never killed any game either. Sighthounds are supposed to run the game to bay and it is the lurcher (big crossbred) that takes the unfortunate game animal down.


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