# Advice needed



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I hope someone can help me a little.I know I probably need to read what Chris Wild wrote for web sites to check out and will but I thought I could get some advice here since I don't think it is typical aggression. Here's the story.Athena is now 10 months old and the past few months she is getting more aggressive with her pal Lexi.It use to be just over bones or toys and as soon as I saw a problem could start I would redirect her before a full blown attack.She has not hurt her yet and I want to keep it that way.About a month ago she had a rough night with her tummy gurgling and wouldn't eat,she ended up vomiting the bile like she does when she's hungry.I tried to get her to eat a bone and she wouldn't, then Lexi came out and she threw a fit and attacked her and wouldn't let up,we ended up kenneling her for about a half hour .I took her out to go potty and when we came back in she was fine with Lexi.Yesterday morning she attacked for no reason and after 2 times she didn't do it again.Then this AM out of the blue she was after Lexi,we separated them, got them both to eat,I took Athena for a walk and then they have been playing together fine since.I've had them off lead outside together playing,and inside.No problems since 9AM.I am starting to think it is a hungry,grumpy, not feeling good problem.She just looked wrong this AM but now she is acting and looking fine.I plan on getting her a vet appt ASAP to go over all this with them and do some blood work.What do you guys/gals suggest for having the Dr check for.
A while back someone had a dog they had to PTS for an aggression disease that progressed over time.What can someone tell me about that.
What ever we figure is the problem we are committed to help it.We do have a place in the next town that does aggression and temperament sessions so I will visit them if all medical test come back normal so please don't be nasty I plan on fixing it whether it is a medical or behavior issue.She has been through basic obedience and will go further in her OB once my nights free up again.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I think the member with the dog put down was VALIUM. You could sort and search the aggression forum for something started by VALIUM.

I know you want the best for Athena and will do whatever it takes. 

LOL, nobody better be rude to my pal Allie.


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

I had to put my Heidi down for the agression. I would do the temp testing and a vet work up to see. Its hard to deal with but something that should be addressed


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Question is Athena intact yet? Not jusding one way or another just wondering if hormones might be playing a part here. If intact when was she last in season?

Val


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

No Athena is spayed.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Some females just do not like other females. My three girls were perfectly fine together for nearly 6 YEARS. One day KC and Tika got into it and Rayne dove in after she figured who was winning and after I had them nearly over it <snarky girl>. Separated ever since. KC is fine with other dogs. Tika is fine with other dogs. They are not fine together. It happens. Sometimes sooner that others.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

There are been "scuffs" in our pack from time to time, usually always with the Alpha female as the problem child. We have had to keep them separated at times, only allowing them to run as a pack under supervision. The occurances became few and far in between so we let them all integrate again for short periods of time. One thing that seemed to help the Alpha with her aggression was long walks with the pack Omega dog. They walked on lease with me for 8 miles through the park, one on each side of me. We did that almost every morning and the aggression faded away.

But this could be a health issue, the throwing up and other symptoms indicate that your Athena could be lashing out because she is ill. In retrospection, I could have known about my Cheffen's cancer condition months earlier by the way he was interacting with the other dogs.
Let us know what the vet says. And good luck!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Has anyone had a dog with Low blood sugar?I know how I feel at times if I don't get to eat.I'll be checking lots of things out to go into the vet with some knowledge of medical conditions in GSDs.I posted mud pictures to see how they get along for the most part.They are sound asleep on the couch as I sit here typing.


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## lupina (Mar 4, 2009)

Hello: Isn't it true at around 8-11 months most GS's go into their version of puberty? The aggression you're describing I have seen with 2 females, or 2 males more often than w/one of each sex. I see it as a dominance issue and what you're describing can be difficult since to some extent one dog usually is dominant in the pack. 

A friend of mine had this happen with his young female and a then 11-12 yr. old female...they'd been living in peace while the pup was growing up, then overnight she began to pick on the senior girl and it got pretty ugly. They keep them separate now.

The 2 dogs (females one yr. apart in age) I brought home Feb. 2007 had a definite pecking order. When I removed the older - more submissive one, got her in a house w/o another female she blossomed. I replaced her with a male and the dominant female found herself having to give and take more. There are still moments, but they play really well together.

Is it continuing?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I consider her in a teenage stage.If there was something going on at the time I would say dominance.Like with food (bones)or couch like we have had problems with.But these last 2 times Lexi has been on good behavior when Athena has decided to fight with her.I don't know I'll see what the vet says tomorrow or when I can get her in to see him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Are both bitches spayed? 

They don't call us "bitches" for nothing. 

Some females do not like other females. Sometimes it has to do with pack order, sometimes it has to do with resource guarding which could be food, a bed, or pets from their favorite person. 

If this is not due to illness -- if it is get them separated and keep them separated until both are healthy again. Bitches do not forget when they decide they hate another bitch. But if it is not due to illness, strenthening your leadership skills might do wonders. 

You can practice nothing in life is free, or you can try Jan Fennel's Amichen bonding. Both techniques do not use brute force, but rather encourage the dog(s) to accept you as their leader and trust you as the leader. When this happens, they are no longer calling the shots and no longer need to fight for the pecking order. If they want the second in command position, by a word or body language, you can difuse a situation before it happens. 

If your bitches are currently fighting (which it sounds like), I would definitely not leave them alone together without one or both crated or kenneled separately. Some you can never trust again. The thing is, a bitch can fight another until one is dead. 

This does not translate to human aggression. And some does not translate to aggression outside of the pack. 

Good luck with your puppy.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Yes, both are spayed.I do keep them supervised or separated.We played together and chilled together all day w/o another incident.I just don't know what's going on.They are passed out on my bed butt to butt as we speak.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a friend that had a working line bitch and bred her to a police dog. The resulting litter had a female that she kept. A second female was returned to her. These pups are about 4 years old now. They are BIG dogs, 90 to 100 pound bitches. 

They go at it with each other now and again. They need to separate them and clean up their wounds, but then they are fine for a while. They live on a farm so there is plenty of excersize for all the dogs. Sometimes they just get going. 

One of my vets has spaniels. Every now and again he needs to get antibiotics for them, as they go at it. 

This is why most people suggest a dog and a bitch. Two of a kind often means warfare.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I hope it's just that.I was warned by a friend that already having a female mutt that I should get a male dog but I was too stubborn.Male dogs aren't my favorite due to there "package" sneaking out when they get excited.If all seems fine come next year when I wanted to get another I will definitely get a male.Of course if her aggression isn't taken care of I won't get another dog no matter the breed or sex.We'll be seeing the vet at some point this week to rule out medical reasons.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

AllieG I was reading the picture thread-she's gorgeous and her sister adorable-but those methods of force-and I realize you seem to like them (you said, "I usually make her go into a down usually forcefully and stay till she chills or submits.I'll look up your method.If it ends up being a dominance thing I'll have to check out whatever will work to chill her a**.I'm all into pinning her down and have gotten lots of criticism on here for it.")-as Dr. Phil would say, how's that working out for ya?









http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1007346&page=1#Post1007346 
picture thread so you can all see this girl!

There are calmer, NILIF-ier ways as Sue referenced above, the Jan Fennell stuff is good, Suzanne Clothier stuff is good-about building a relationship, that can help your dogs. 

When you do things that threaten them, you put them into survival mode, and that's not a good place for a dog to be. And this is the way they will act with each other, I am convinced. 

I have...five females (had to count, I keep thinking Nina's still here) right now and RARELY do we have a hands on moment. We do have tons of "stop looking at her" "stop touching her" type moments because my deal is to stop them when they are at the very beginning of being jag offs to each other. So no extended freaky eye contact, or subtle butt swipes, or anything of the sort, is allowed. Check out the Turid Rugas stuff on Calming Signals. There is a lot of communication going on there with them and it takes a lot of energy and attention for those of us with more than one dog to pick it up! 

And sometimes, you have a female who, when she reaches her alpha peak, just cannot deal with other females. 

Hopefully that's not the case. 

Hopefully doing strict NILIF (off the bed, girls!), working on the relationship, giving them their own seperate time, and taking each to training seperately, watching their body language closely and using more positive methods will be enough.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

When she is fighting I basically put her in a down,If I need to force her I do but a firm tug of the collar is usually all it take.I watch there body language closely and these morning fights are unprovoked,no staring, no snarling just Lexi comes near and she goes in fight mode.With the bones or toys there are signs that I watch for and redirect whoever, before there is growling.When I have seen possession problems like the bed,or couch I ban her from that area or thing for 24 hours.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

When Lexi comes near what? You? If the answer is yes, that could almost be a good thing. 

Check out the book MINE! by Jean Donaldson about resource guarding. 

I am not sure about the fight thing-I would think if you are able to stop it with a firm tug of the collar-that would be a low level of commitment to the fight and that's also good, right? 

Like with kids, I have been able to break up fights with a good shove, and then another fight had to lift the tiny jr high girl and carry her into the library...







where the other tiny jr high girl got away from her restraining person and tried to break the door in...a higher committment to the fight and much harder to work through after the fact...

So hoping that is a good sign-others may be able to indicate more. But the other stuff will help including training classes.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Just wondering if you have talked with the breeder. Breeders can be invaluable sources of information if they know their lines.

By holding her down, you maybe adding to the stress building up between the dogs. Athena is thinking darn I wanted to teach Lexi a lesson and that human got involved. So next time the attack will be harder and faster so she can get her point across. You might be better served by just removing her to a different room. What is Lexi doing when you are hold Athena in a down?

I have 2 females that have a love hate relationship, they love to hate each other. They were fine as pup and older pups but it got really bad when they were young adults. For the safety of the two of them they are separted at all times.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

First off I have an appt for tomorrow morning.The vet tech said it could be anything but since it seems to be worse in AM after a bought of vomiting it is most likely she isn't feeling well so we'll she what the Doc wants to do for tests.
Ok to answer your question,I don't believe it is a protection thing.I have been in the room because I am usually where they are and vise versa.I don't know how far she would go if we weren't right there to break it up.We kennel both if not home.Since Lexi is 30 lbs and Athena is 65 I don't want to know what the outcome would be.These are just different than the normal resource guarding like with a bone or toy.I notice signs with that.I guess we'll have to see what they find tomorrow.This AM was very uneventful but I did get her to eat with in a half hour of waking.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Not sure if I have talked with her about this latest battle.If anything comes up with her medically I will bring it to the breeders attention.Lexi just sits there in shock, she is very standoffish after until she knows Athena is back to normal.We separate them always after a fight until attitudes change.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

OK Allie if this happened after her being sick I think it was because she wasn't feeling well IMO.
Take her to the vets and see what they say. 
Athena from what you have told me is a good girl and those eyes I don't see devil in her.
You will not have to put her down, Please son't even worry about it. If I have to come up and help you out I will.
NOTHING is going to happen to her you hear me!!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Thank you for the encouragement.She is so sweet. I'm really thinking it's something fixable.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

AllieG, LOL, but Rushie's "package" was more out than in for his first two years -- uhg. 

It became the regular joke in obedience classes. But I do love the boy. He is my only boy now though. I prefer bitches. I have jealous bitches, grouchy bitches, bitchy bitches, crazy bitches, and one son of a bitch.


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## lupina (Mar 4, 2009)

AllieG: It's been a week+ since you went to the vets...How are things in your household??


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes, and what did the vet say? Do you have copies of the tests?


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