# Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side



## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

OK, I'm going to start off by saying I've always wanted to feed my dogs the RAW diet but have been scared to. My reasons for making the switch now is because my dogs just hate kibble; they eat enough to sustain life and not a piece of kibble more LOL. Plus, Kohlee (my groenendael) is probably the weirdest dog I have ever had. She absolutely WILL NOT eat ANYTHING that contains carbs. You would think a dog would gobble up bread, chips, cookies, or basically any human food they might beg for that has carbs in it. She turns her nose everytime (btw I don't feed my dogs from the table but occasionally guests that come over for dinner sneak them some table scraps). 

Kohlee is very thin...borderline TOO thin. You can feel hips and see ribs. However, she has been checked at the vet and is 100% healthy. It's obvious why she is so thin... she is an extremely high energy dog and hardly eats. Basically, she is NO couch potato. She lives to catch frisbees, balls and anything of the like and never gets tired. This dog can litterally last all day and be up for more. She eats her kibble but for the amount of exercise she is getting she needs to eat twice the amount. However, she eats enough to sustain life. BUT....if you give her a piece of chicken, steak, beef, cheese, etc she is your best friend and will gobble all of it. This is why I want to try the RAW on her and Diesel and Piper would benefit too.

As far as Diesel goes, he would benefit too. Everything upsets his stomach and he's been getting a lot of runny poops. He's been slimming down a bit too as a result. In addition, he's shedding real bad too! I believe a better diet would help him as well. 

I have read all the current posts on the raw diet but still have questions. I tried to read Lauri's website but it's under construction. 

1) How do I know how much to feed? Say I was going to slowly convert over to RAW and I started off with chicken wings.
2) What are these abbreviations? RMB, OM, MM, etc
3) Where do you feed your dog? I'm a panic about my house and keeping it clean. Raw food would get everywhere and I'd be driving myself crazy disinfecting for e-coli LOL

I'm going to take "before" pictures and also take their weights.


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## JulieAG (Nov 9, 2008)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

I completely know what you mean! My Hummer is VERY active and high energy.. He is basically a barn dog and runs all day long. And he won't eat enough kibble to keep the weight on! I kind of have to trick him into eating it. That is basically why I started feeding him raw part time. Right now he gets 2 1/2 to 3 cups of Orijen a day, plus 2 pounds of raw and I still don't think its enough. I will be switching to raw full time as soon as the dog food runs out. 

Just a tip or 2 as to where you feed... if you can try teaching your dogs to keep their raw in their food bowls. I bought the biggest stainless steel bowl I could find. Whenever Hummer would try taking his chicken quarter out of the bowl I would tell him No! Then I'd put it back in the bowl and take it away for 10-15 seconds before giving it back to him. He seems to be learning this pretty quickly and will keep his food in the bowl 99% of the time now. It makes things so much easier! Otherwise you can always feed them outside. It helps that you live in Florida and it usually isn't cold! There is my two cents... but I am not at pro quite yet... still figuring out feeding amounts and what to feed when.. and still working on finding my sources. But this web board is a great source of information and you will learn a ton. Good luck!


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

2-3% of their *ideal* body weight.
Pick a ratio of RMB (Raw meaty bones- backs, necks, wings, leg quarters) MM (Muscle meat- breast, ground meat, hearts) OM (Organ meat - livers, kidneys, brains) like 50% RMB, 45% MM and 5% OM. 

I feed my dog inside and just clean up with water and vinegar, but really you could feed anywhere you wanted.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

1. 2-3% of their ideal adult weight.

2. RBM - Raw meaty bones (and bones that the dog can digest)
MM - Muscle meat
OM - Organ meat

3. I feed my dog in his wire crate. Contains the mess, gives him his space to eat and is extremely easy to clean up after! I am a clean freak so I do not want him eating anywhere else but in his crate...eek!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KohleePiper My reasons for making the switch now is because my dogs just hate kibble


That's the precise reason I switched Penny years ago. Seems to be a reoccurring theme with the shepherds on this board. I mean how many times has someone posted about picky eaters? I think the gsd are just smart and hold out until there owners learn better











> Originally Posted By: KohleePiper 1) How do I know how much to feed? Say I was going to slowly convert over to RAW and I started off with chicken wings.


I do it a bit differently and go by calories vs % of body weight. Chicken wings have about 70 calories per ounce. Use the caloric info from the kibble you've been feeding and compare. Say the dog ate 1000kcal kibble, you would need to feed 14.3oz chicken wing.



> Originally Posted By: KohleePiper 2) What are these abbreviations? RMB, OM, MM, etc


raw meaty bone, organ meat, muscle meat



> Originally Posted By: KohleePiper 3) Where do you feed your dog?


My two dogs eat at opposite ends of the kitchen from a cookie sheet that I place on top of a vinyl tablecloth. The dogs prefer the cookie sheet vs a bowl as they like to spread the food out and chose what to eat first. The vinyl tablecloth makes any accidental spills easy to wipe up. 

Teach the dog how and where you want it to eat and it shouldn't be a problem once they have had the opportunity to learn what you want.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Oh yea, you're probably going to have to teach them that it's okay to eat by you








Every dog i've fed raw to has tried to go hide with it. I just herd them back to their bowl and praise like crazy. Or I take it away and put it in their bowl and block their way out of the kitchen where I want them to eat.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

You've already got some great advice! 

I also feed my meals frozen...less mess (plus I have a gulper) and they both have their own areas or "places" that they eat that have mats so I can wash them off/move them when done.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Grimm was skinny with runny poop on kibble. He's now more muscled-up and has solid poop on the raw. Extra benefit, he is calmer on raw than he is on any kibble, even grain-free, due to the carbs.

I bet Kohlee and Diesel will really improve on the raw. You already take such excellent care of them,







I can imagine they'll do super on their new all natural raw diet, if you do decide to switch.









RMB- raw meaty bone
OM- organ meat
MM- muscle meat
WDIFRB- why didn't I feed raw before


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

Excellent tips! I went and got some Purdue chicken thighs (on sale) and when I got home I told them I had cookies. Kohlee knows what is in plastic wrapped containers because its the only thing she gets excited about to eat LOL (for ex. when we bring home rotisserie chicken she gets the leftovers and she gets so excited). 

I bent down to pick up the bowls to put the thighs in and Kohlee grabbed the thigh out of my hand????? She's never done that before because we always do a "pretty sit" and a "focus" before meals (NILF)! I took it out of her mouth LOL and put it in her bowl, made all of them do their tricks, and the feast began.

My dogs are normally 100% non-food agressive but you could see the animal come out in them when there was chicken thigh. In fact, I didn't like the look Kohlee was giving Diesel (aka BRAT) so I kept putting Diesel in a "lay down" so she wouldn't feel intimidated. They kept wanting to run off and hide to eat it just like you said LOL! I kept re-directing them to eat on the tile. They eventually quit running off and began crackin' bones! Gosh what and awful sound LOL! Diesel and Piper quickly ate their thigh but Kohlee took 10 minutes. I don't think she knew what to do...the bone was throwing her off







but she WANTED to eat it. I'm sure she'll get the hang of it.

I didn't want to give too much yet to avoid any upset tummy(s) so Kohlee got two thighs and Disesl and Piper got one thigh. How fast should I convert them to RAW?


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

You don't necessarily need to slowly transition by adding a chicken wing here and some ground beef there. Many people, myself included, simply cut out the kibble one day and go raw from then on out. Sure, you can expect some loose or soft stools for the first few days but things should settle fairly quickly. 

ETA: Getting a scale would probably be beneficial. Most people fed raw by weight, as mentioned above. You start with 2-3% of your dogs _ideal_ (Note: this does not necessarily mean _current_) weight in oz. I believe that Lauri's website has an excel worksheet that will convert your dogs weight in oz and help you figure out how much to feed each week. If her website isn't up and running soon just PM me your address as I have something fairly similar that will make it super easy for you to figure out how much to feed each pup per day.

It's hard to feed by numbers (as in: this dog gets one thigh but this dog is bigger and should get two) because the weight of these things range like you would not believe! Esp. for chicken quarters, which many people feed because they're so cheap! 

I have a cheap ($12) analog scale. You don't need anything fancy, just something that can weigh out food in oz.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

I am such a newbie! I have more questions LOL.

Diesel is 11 months old....his father was a healthy 98lbs. I haven't weighed him since he was ~9months (79lbs) so I would estimate him right now 80-85lbs. I will get an exact weight tonight when DH can help me weigh him. So since he is not full grown do I go by what his sire weighed or what he is now?

Good idea with the scale... I have one from a diet I was on a while ago LOL! I can get better use out of it now haha!

I think I will start them all officially on the RAW tomorrow. I will take before pics and weights tonight so I can check progress.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

I would say do an estimate of his ideal adult weight and feed 2-3% of that. If he starts to get too skinny or too fat adjust the amount. 

Don't forget to take pictures of the teeth! You'll be amazed at the difference


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Yes, feed 2 - 3% of what you think his adult weight would be. I would err on the side of less, and if he gets too skinny, slowwwwwly increase the amount if you need to.

Expect some amazing changes! Do expect some possible loose poops for the first week or so as the body adjusts to the new diet. This may not happyn, though. Just don't worry and be patient if it does.









Don't worry about the e.coli in the house.







Feed outdoors if you like, in the crates, whatever.

Be aware that raw food is something a dog KNOWS is good for them. The minute they start with raw, they KNOW that the bones have all the minerals that they need, the meat and organs all the vitamins, the raw food full of active useful enzymes and fatty acids that they need. So.. high value food! You may want to be sure the dogs are kept separated while eating. Some people don't do this. Some do. You may simply be surprised by resource guarding towards the other dog (or towards you) with raw. It can happen. Just feed separately if it's an issue.

One thing that happened with Grimm: His coat fell out! He had a heavy shed. Then, a new coat came in-- thick, dark, glossy, soft and dense. With nearly no shedding and much richer, more vibrant colors!

I would suggest to just stick to one protien source for the first 2 weeks (I've had best luck introducing variety really *slowly* when starting raw), such as chicken for the MM OM and RMB.

YAY for Kohlee and Diesel on their new raw diet!!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Also, make sure to start with just one protein source (prob chicken since you already fed the thighs) and feed only that for a week. I'd probably hold off on any OM for a bit too (liver, etc) because that is rich and can cause an upset tummy. Add new protein sources one at a time in case you notice any problems. You want to make sure the transition to raw is good before you start throwing things into the diet. Some dogs do ok with instant variety, and others, not so much...


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## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Congratulations on your switch! You've gotten excellent advice here (of course) and I don't have anything to add. Just wanted to pop in and say good on you!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*



> Originally Posted By: KohleePiperI'm going to take "before" pictures and also take their weights.


If they have any tarter on their teeth take before pictures of that too!!


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

UPDATES!

I switched them to raw but wanted to use the remaininy kibble (CORE) that I have. I've been leaving the kibble out for them to munch on and have about a day or two left until it's gone. 

THEY LOVE....and I repeat.... THEY LOVE raw! They are all happy as ever when they hear me opening up the package of chicken thighs. I have been feeding Diesel 2-3 thighs, Kohlee 3 thighs, and Piper 2 thighs per day until the kibble runs out. First couple of days they all had runny poops but today is now day 3 and all have nice small firm poops!

I can't believe their teeth! SO WHITE! I am the type of person that likes to brush their teeth so they were already white before raw but OMG they are even whiter now! I wish I took pics of their teeth.

I priced out the food compared to the raw and it's about the same. I'm shocked how much raw meat I'm going to have to buy. The people at the grocery store are gonna give me weird looks LOL!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

You may want to price out buying in bulk and investing in a dedicated freezer - especially with 3 dogs. It is MUCH cheaper than shopping at the grocery store.

I just used the online yellow pages (I think yahoo) and searched for meat distributor in my area and called them all to see who sold to the public.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Today is day 4 of the RAW.

A new problem has developed, mainly with Diesel, but Piper and Kohlee are doing it a little as well. I've fed him kibble with chicken in it before but his previous problems were the runny poops. I switched him to Wellness CORE chicken formula and the itching started but poops were better. Now since feeding them the rest of my bag of CORE plus the RAW chicken thighs the itching is crazy! Diesel is so ITCHY! He has licked the hair off around his privates towards the tops of his hind legs. 

I don't know what to do. I don't know if I should continue the RAW diet or try a different kibble without chicken....like the CORE ocean kibble. Either way I've got to get more food tonight because my monsters ate it all!


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

I didn't get much input with my problem so I decided to go back to kibble. Diesel licked all the fur the tops of his rear legs and just wont stop scratching!

I bought a small bag of Blue Buffalo and we'll see


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

It sounds like a chicken allergy...it may be worse with the Wellness and/or raw due to the higher meat content (real chicken, not just fillers). What flavor of BB did you buy?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*



> Originally Posted By: KohleePiperI didn't get much input with my problem so I decided to go back to kibble. Diesel licked all the fur the tops of his rear legs and just wont stop scratching!
> 
> I bought a small bag of Blue Buffalo and we'll see


Sorry - I missed your posts.

So what exactly was Diesel eating when he started the licking?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Well, if you are thinking there is an allergy...I would do an elimination diet (raw food, since that is the way you are headed it seems). Maybe start with turkey (since you are thinking chicken may cause it). I know many people recommend doing a novel protein, but in our case it just wasn't feasible, so we started with chicken. I would feed only one meat for several weeks and see if the itching stops and then slowly add one new meat at a time to see if the food is causing the probs.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*



> Originally Posted By: mspiker03Well, if you are thinking there is an allergy...I would do an elimination diet (raw food, since that is the way you are headed it seems). Maybe start with turkey (since you are thinking chicken may cause it). I know many people recommend doing a novel protein, but in our case it just wasn't feasible, so we started with chicken. I would feed only one meat for several weeks and see if the itching stops and then slowly add one new meat at a time to see if the food is causing the probs.


I second this with one added note - make sure you feed ONLY the food. Do not add supplements, oils, anything!

A TRUE elimination diet starts with one INGREDIENT. You cannot do that using kibble.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

I saw on another thread the BB is working...right?


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Yes, he seems to be less miserable today after the BB. He licked all the hair off the tops of his rear legs and around his privates. My other two were itching too but not as bad. I read somewhere on here it might be from the chicken skin too.

I didn't know what else to do and I'm 100% sure it wasn't fleas. I'm going to see if the itching gets better with the BB and then feed them a mix of kibble and raw (minus the skin).


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*



> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KohleePiperI didn't get much input with my problem so I decided to go back to kibble. Diesel licked all the fur the tops of his rear legs and just wont stop scratching!
> ...


He had Wellness CORE and was scratching a little bit but when I went 100% raw chicken thighs, breasts, qtrs, etc the itching went through the roof!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Were you using any supplements? It does sound like the chicken was the problem but just wanted to cover all the bases.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

No supplements. 

How long after a food allergy (if it is one) does it take to clear their system?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

Probably a couple weeks as long as there's nothing else in his food that is triggering allergies.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

*Re: Turning Diesel & Kohlee over to the Dark side*

We noticed a vast improvement after 3-4 weeks.


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