# Moral support from fellow aggression survivors....



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

So we have been working with Athena since the beginning of April I believe, on her aggression towards other dogs.I know it's only been 6 weeks or so but I am getting frustrated.I am not a patient person who can wait for results.When I want something I want it know, not later.Sorry just the way I am.I hated waiting for a puppy,I hated waiting for my kids to be born, I just hate waiting.So the trainer says it's fear aggression not mean aggression.Don't know how else to word it.I am working on the focus command and am getting hardly no where with it.Occasionally she will look at me but if she get a smell or hears something,I could pull her ear off and she wouldn't respond.I do occasionally get her to sit away, but in sight of the neighbors dog pen with out a sound.We did manage to walk past the neighbors barking beagle without any notice so I know we are making progress but not as fast as I would like.The trainer had her for the weekend while we went away and said she did good.When the dogs got loud she would retreat back into her apartment as he referred to it.Does anyone have any advice to move this along faster.I am also working on her basic commands to get them perfect.I have a week and a 1/2 till vacation then she is with him for a whole week.I have asked that he work on her while she is there and my hopes are that she will get a little desensitized while being there also. I will add my training thread in case anyone wants to know what we have been doing and have been through.If there's anyone in the Lakes Region NH that wishes to do any free dog training PM me.For those that have been through this aggression is it just a stage and with work she'll outgrow it or what?What have your experiences been?I am getting frustrated.Any suggestion or word of wisdom very appreciated right now....Thank you.









http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1035184&page=0&fpart=1


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## VectorSketcher (Jul 20, 2008)

Oh Allie, I have no words of wisdom but I do understand your frustration, just hang in there, things have to get better for you!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx was(is) fear aggressive. More to human than dogs but showed dog reactiveness, too. It started at about 11 mos and peaked at 15 thru 18 mos. Her maturing helped alot, and going to a club w/ other GSD's and their owners. Because of the approach and handling of situations, she gained confidence and found that others are not out to get her, so she doesn't have to react. 
We also did a Control Unleashed class last Summer, really helped her and me. Have you read the Control Unleashed book? 
We have since passed her CGC in a kennel club and at my SchH club(went thru a CGC class the same night as the Control Unleashed class) and have done beginner agility. I have to keep an eagle eye on her there, as there are the fluffy breeds she is more reactive to and of course they are running, barking excited while running the course, but we had no issues til the last night; a lady came really close w/ her rough collie and Onyx growled at him. If people approach her in a quick manner, she may growl. At home, she is fine w/ everyone, strangers entering as long as we welcome them~ except small children as she is never around them, and I haven't desensitized her to them. Now she may be fine, but when she was younger, she didn't like tykes. She is fine with 10 and up.
I still have to manage her, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Wish you luck!!
I don't think in a week and a half you are going to get the miracle you want, but in time Athena will be able to manage her issues(Maturity!)


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## Prize (Feb 5, 2009)

We had the same problem with Minerva, but instead of dogs it was people. It's a long and time consuming process. She's still not perfect, but it's great when we hear people saying how much better she is now.
My advice would be to set little goals, so it doesn't seem to drag so much. For instance, you did manage to walk past the neighbors barking beagle without any notice, which is great. Why don't you set up more situations like this with mini-goals. 
I found that if you break a big problem down into smaller bits it makes it seem more feasible. Plus, you don't have to wait to celebrate!

Lastly, I am not sure if it was just my dog, but I did notice pattern. At some point everything became easier & faster... like instead of just accomplishing one goal a day she would complete 3 or more. As if once she started gaining confidence in herself the process became more simple.

Good luck, with your determination I am sure it will be a success!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I have no words of wisdom. Personally I don't believe that if fear aggression is coming not from bad experience but from weak nerves there is something that one can do, really. Yana is not outgrowing it but she's getting easier to manage with constant never ending work (over two years now). She's very tuned to me and she trusts my ability to handle the situation, and I know I won't let her down. I do not require any focus from her, if she's not shutting down and she is responding to my voice commands I'm happy with that. 

I'm not even frustrated with her anymore. Anton gives me joy and companionship, Yana is just work and will always be









ETA: Allie, I've just noticed the title of the thread







I guess I didn't offer any moral support for you so please disregard my post.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

My thoughts are I should be exposing her to other dogs but the trainer doesn't want me to do anything where I know I will see other dogs.Before I started with him I was going to take her into town and walk her alot figuring I was bound to meet up with dogs that she would pass but he isn't saying to do that.What is everyone's thoughts on it?I had started to walk with the neighbor and her dog before seeking the trainer but I am not comfortable with her dogs.I have seen what her dogs can do to a dog if it gets loose.
I'll try to keep walking her by the neighbor that i know the dog will bark and try to go little goals.Thanks for the support.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

AllieG,
I feel your pain. I am also struggling with issues about like yours. It is frustrating and I have difficulties waiting for the results like you do. I just have to remember that eventually it will all pay off and to keep my sight on the big picture. Hope we both find the light at the end of the tunnel soon


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## pglenn (Jun 5, 2005)

Allie, I understand your frustration and wish I could tell you a quick fix but I haven't found one. My girl started exhibiting reactiveness around a year and a half. She's just turned four and it's only within the last year that I've seen major progress. It's only been six to a year that I see her as relaxed on our walks. Its been many months since we've had an episode but I still and probably will always see her as a work in progress.

Everything I've learned about Fear Aggression indicates that stress is a major factor. Additionally, for the dog, this becomes a learned behavior with it's own rewards. Whenever your dog lunges and barks at another dog, from her viewpoint they move away. The more frequently she gets a chance to perform the behavior, the more it's reinforced. Based on this theory, your trainer is giving you good information not to expose her to other dogs right now. You don't want to give her the opportunity to practice the behavior. 

If you are working on counter conditioning, the idea is to stay below your dogs threshold, or distance at which she reacts to other dogs, and slowly work on reducing that distance. You need to find out at what distance you dog is comfortable and not reacting to other dogs and work form that point. This is a long process but it does work. 

There are several Yahoo groups with great information and support for owners of reactive dogs. I've found them to be very helpful, particularly when I was feeling frustrated. Just knowing I wasn't alone in dealing with this problem and hearing of other's successes and failures was very helpful. I'm attaching the links in case your might be interested.

Hang in there. Patience practice and time are your allies.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pos-4-ReactiveDogs/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/agbeh/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/k9aggression-support/


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks Pat,
The counter conditioning sounds like the method we are using. He hasn't really given a name to his method,I just know it's gentle not harsh.I'll have to check out those groups and maybe we can keep this going to give each other support here.It's helps to know your not the only one with a dog that acts this way.
Thanks again to everyone offering help.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Breathe. I know how frustrating it is. But if you work at it, I'm sure you'll see progress.









Risa is fear reactive. I first noticed it was a problem about 2 years ago. Unfortunately, I didn't really know what to do about it and I made a lot of mistakes. We were enrolled in obedience classes at the time and I had asked our instructor for advice. It didn't really help, though, as her advice didn't really fit Ris' problem. Risa wasn't reacting because she was frustrated (our trainer had suggested working on her self-control). She reacted out of fear. It took me a LONG time to come to that conclusion. But once I did, we were able to start working on the right track!

Still, I never really got a lot of support from our trainer so I had to figure things out on my own (sounds like you've got a great trainer on your side!). I read a lot of books and spoke with a lot of people online experiencing similar problems with their dogs. I tried a little bit of everything (nothing that wasn't positive) trying to get Ris' reactions under control. It was a very frustrating time. Having a reactive dog is embarrassing and it makes the otherwise joyful activity of walking your dog a disaster waiting to happen!

It took a while, but I finally started to see improvement. Risa had always been 'okay' with other dogs when she was off-leash though still not 100% comfortable. On-leash, I pretty much could not let her near another dog. I remember many times watching her bounce and hackle at a dog across the street. She used to lunge and snap at the other dogs in our obedience class if they got too close while we were working.

While she's still far from perfect, I've seen remarkable improvement with her behavior in the last year, especially the last 6-8 months. Of course, I was unemployed for a good chunk of that time which did help things a little.







But mainly, I finally found a routine that works!! I started doing some classical conditioning. Basically, when she sees another dog, she gets a treat. No matter what she's doing (though I always tried to keep her subthreshold so that it was easier to reward her as taking food when she's that aroused is unlikely). The idea is to associate the sight of another dog with something pleasant instead of something scary. I had to start out giving her treats long before she was close enough to react (as I was working with her while we were on walks where we passed dogs on the path) and really feed her a steady stream of them while we were right next to the oncoming dog. But, after a while, I was able to decrease the stream of treats. 

Now, I can walk her past another dog on our walk without any treats at all (though I usually have some at the ready jic and always reward with praise as we pass and usually a treat once we're clear). In fact, most of the time when she sees the dog coming she will turn back and look at me in anticipation of receiving her reward. Today she even kept her focus on me while one of the 'regulars' reacted at one of the other 'regulars.' She did take some glances at him but always redirected to me. I don't mind if she looks. It's okay for her to check out the world and see that it's not scary. That I will keep her safe. Even if it means beating feet away from an oncoming dog when the owners are not paying attention to how close its getting to us (has happened many times).

It's not easy. And it takes a lot of time. But I think once you have a game plan that you both are comfortable with, things progress a lot faster. I know when I took Risa to visit my folks a couple weekends ago and took her back to a place where she had reacted previously I was quite happy to see she remembered what I had taught her recently and didn't have a single reaction. Even when two very friendly Goldens passed and tried to get close enough to say "Hi." We both knew what was expected of each other so things went swimmingly.









I would highly recommend reading the following books, if you haven't already:
<u>Scaredy Dog</u> by Ali Brown
<u>Fiesty Fido</u> by Patricia McConnell
<u>Fight!</u> by Jean Donaldson
<u>Control Unleashed</u> by Leslie McDevitt
<u>Click to Calm</u> by Emma Parsons 
I've read all of them except <u>Click to Calm</u>. It has been recommended to me and it's on my bookshelf but I haven't gotten around to reading it yet.

I'm also a member of another board where quite a few people live with and have rehabbed reactive dogs. You might find some good information there as well: http://rewardingbehaviors.com/forum/index.php

Keep your chin up and keep working towards your goal. It may take time but I'm sure, with determination, you'll get there. I can understand the impatience (been there!). But just keep up the good work. Good luck!

Risa meeting another dog on-leash, something she could not do previously (she's the cautious-looking one on the left):


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

Hi Allie,

You have my sympathy for what you're going through. I totally understand as Heidi was really fear reactive (sometimes aggressively so) towards other dogs when we first got her. In fact, my very first post on this board on January 9th, 2008) was titled, "Will my dog ever get along with other dogs?": http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=549898#Post549898

It's been a lot of work, but we've actually gotten Heidi to the point where she is in daycare once a week, I can walk her past other dogs without any problems, and we're able to go to some off-leash places with her. We even took her to Fort Funston last weekend with a group of 8 other GSDs from the board (not to mention all the dogs running on the beach) without a single incident! She still gets snarky towards some dogs (mainly energetic, young dogs; dogs that give her the "hard stare"; or dogs that are dominant towards her) and she still doesn't play with other dogs, but she is SOOOO much better than before.

Things that helped were: 

-- A "Grumpy Pup" class that used the same methods described in Jamie's message. It was a great feeling when we were able to take her on hikes without her growling and lunging at other dogs we passed on the trail. Now, she'll turn her head to look at them as we pass and then look up at us for a treat. And we don't always give her one anymore because she's really good about it.

--Private lessons with a trainer

--Obedience classes with other dogs present

--Clicker training

--Walking her with relaxed, easygoing "bombproof" dogs

--Talking to her in a happy, cheerful voice when other dogs are around 

--Lots of exercise

--Lots of reference books (I have almost all of the ones Jamie mentioned)

--Learning her body language well enough to be able to tell when she is going to get reactive and nip it in the bud by distracting her or pulling her away (while talking to her in a jolly tone). We know now that when meeting another dog, if she starts holding her head up high, getting very stiff, and gets a certain look in her eye, it's time to move along!

So there is a lot of hope. Heidi definitely has "weak nerves," but with a lot of training and effort, she has turned into a great companion. Her sensitivity is what we love about her but it's also the cause of some of her issues.

Good luck, Allie, and all of the others who have reactive dogs. It's frustrating, disheartening, and depressing, but it can be overcome or at least, managed. And the more good experiences your dog has with other dogs, the better. Don't lose heart--especially those of you with young dogs. Heidi got better as she got older. She's still a work in progress, but aren't we all!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

definitely been there! honestly the best thing that worked for a few of my dogs that had this issue was walking with other dogs. luckily i have always had friends that have had very mild non-reactive dogs. i would meet up with a friend and just start walking with them. i did not let the dogs interact, just walk together. it does take some time, but i ALWAYS so a huge difference with this simple tecnique. the results is amazing. but, you do need to have mild dogs, or dogs that are under control in order for this to be a positive.

debbie


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

your dog MAY NEVER like other dogs, paige doesn't. well, there have been a handful over the years but in general-no. that's fine.she is not dog park material. My other dogs get to go places with other dogs. paige can be around other dogs as long as they don't bother her (not loose but she goes to dog events etc)
your dog should learn to mind you but you will not change her personality, why even think you can? there is a certain level of obediance you should expect but you cannot force a dog to like to interact with other dogs. there are probably a few dog friends your dog could have, my dog is cool to her siblings and her two best friends and that's about it. let your dog be who she is, basic obediance should keep her in control and in my opinion that is all you can ask for.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Jamie,
Thanks for the encouragement.I have to order a book for my daughter so I think I'll pick one of the ones you mentioned and order it too.I had the same experience with my first trainer.She was a hard *ss GSD trainer and I think she thought Athena was just mean not scared and I think that set us up for the bigger problem.I am noticing she is doing a little play bowing when she meets a dog that is behind a fence so I do believe there is a light at the end of the LONG tunnel.I am also doing the treating when I notice good things on walks or just sitting watching the neighbors dogs.I am getting into a habit of getting a handful of treats and putting them in my pocket when I head out for a walk.

Karin,
Thanks for the words of wisdom.I have to check out these sites that everyone has suggested.

Debbie,
I wish I had non reactive dogs to walk with.I do believe if I could do that a few times a week it would really help.Unfortunately my neighbor's dogs are reactive.There are lots of other dogs on the road but I'm not familiar with them.I do know one is old and not reactive but I don't the family well and it is the dog they never walk on a leash so I don't want to take the chance in case he is too friendly.That dog has already been attacked by my neighbors dogs so I would hate to have it happen with mine.

SuzyE,
My biggest fear is she will never accept other dogs but I can only pray we can get her through it.I am hoping to be able to get another GSD pup next spring.

What has everyone's experience been introducing a puppy to a reactive dog? I am hoping by next spring we have made great improvements so I can do this.I won't screw up on it this time around.If I get Athena to a point of being able to accept dogs I will be putting her into daycare at least once a week.If I am able to get another puppy I will be doing things a lot different that's for sure.
Thanks everyone.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I just sent my order in for the Cautious Canine and Scaredy Dog.I'll have to wait on the Control Unleashed due to the price.If anyone has one they would like to sell or loan PM me please.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It's a pity I've checked this thread too late and you placed an order on Cautious Canine because I could just sent it to you for free. I can send it to somebody else who is interested.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree very much with SuzyE on everything. When I accepted that Yana is the way she is (it took me a while) and stopped trying to turn her into a dog I wanted (that's why I do not ask her for a focus when she's nervous but reward when she does look at me, never let other people on the walks pet her unless she's up to it, never let her being sniffed by other dogs), then things became easier and less frustration for both of us and I started seeing improvement. Sometimes working too hard can be counterproductive. 

Now I take her to a dog park (I know, a no-no, but it helps her a lot) and I leave her with a friend who knows her personality. I wouldn't leave her in a daycare because I don't believe the personnal their has the nessasary skills and I hate to have her go thru sitting in a corner with her tail tucked, hackled up and snapping at everybody and everything because I know in her mind her life is in danger and she panics. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieGWhat has everyone's experience been introducing a puppy to a reactive dog? I am hoping by next spring we have made great improvements so I can do this.I won't screw up on it this time around.If I get Athena to a point of being able to accept dogs I will be putting her into daycare at least once a week.If I am able to get another puppy I will be doing things a lot different that's for sure.


Here I can actually tell you encouraging words. Yana was a little over a year when we brought Anton home. At first it was very bad, 3 weeks of growling, snapping, trying to get at him, constant separation and rotating between crates. Add to this 3 cats and you get the picture of a **** we were living in, I was even posting the threads on the board here about it. 

Things became fine after a months. I think the key was giving her lots of attention so she didn't feel left out because a new puppy was home. The personality of a new puppy is very important too. Anton was impossible to be fased out and he also was and is very good in dog language and his ability to leave her alone and avoid confrontation. Yana never became a real friend with Anton even though he tried so hard. They live like too separate dogs, never snuggle, never go for the same toy, play very rarely with each other, but they do get along great.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07It's a pity I've checked this thread too late and you placed an order on Cautious Canine because I could just sent it to you for free. I can send it to somebody else who is interested.


Was this a good book?Did it offer help in your situation? I can cancel the book I think if you want to get rid of it.


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## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

I think it also helps when adding a new puppy if the you can do the first meeting away from home. When I got Aodhán, I took Rica with us to meet the puppy (with the breeder's permission to bring her with us). I think I would also talk to the breeder about your dog's personality and have them consider that in choosing your new puppy, as well as the fit with you. I don't know this for a fact, it's just my opinion, but if the two dog's personalities are too close, and especially if they feel they have the same dominance rank that there's more potential for conflict.
In our case, Rica is clearly the more dominant dog and Aodhán respects. Aodhán tried to change the pack order once when Rica was sick, but as soon as Rica was feeling better she let Aodhán know that it wasn't time for that to happen. (Or maybe I'm just lucky.)


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Allie, it is a good book, it's very short but definitely worth reading. No, it didn't help with Yana since Yana is really wired differently and requires custom individual approach, but it did give me food for thoughts. I think the key is to read as much as you can, meet with as many trainers as you can, go to seminars if possible, study different training and behaviour modification methods and accumulate your knowledge, and then you can tailor the training to your own dog's needs. This way you become a better handler, a better trainer, trust yourself more and don't take any word from any trainer as gospel. This is my general approach to studing new things, not just dog training, and it works for me since I am not a how-to step by step person.

If you want to PM me your address I will send the book to you, I will donate it anyway.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I did ask the trainer about adding a pup and he said maybe next Spring.By then I should have a handle on Athena so then I can put my all into a puppy.Makes total sense.He also suggested maybe going with a foster pup in case it doesn't work out.So if anyone comes across a puppy needing fostering let me know.


I'll keep this thread and when I am done with the books I just ordered I'll see if anyone on here is interested.Maybe we can get a book swap started of some sort.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thats to bad that you don't have anyone with non reactive dogs. are you going to classes? if so maybe you can get chummy with someone with a lab or golden or something explain what you would like to do and see if they are willing to walk etc.

i take Every opportunity possible to walk Sam with other dogs. as long as the owners have a clue on what i want to do, and why, its no problem. i even ask my customers at work to walk if i know they have a dog, you would be surprised how many people are willing to help. i even ask them to take Sam's leash after i have walked with them a few times, this is a good thing because gsd's need to have other people handle them, etc.

as of now Sam has a pretty good variety of walking buds. A golden (Molson) a shelty (angie) a rottie (shawna) a shepherd (sadie) and a lab (cocoa) and we are adding to the list any time i see a potential prospect...LOL!

deb


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

No we are doing in home training with a trainer.He doesn't really want contact with dogs at this time.We did a 6 week obedience class in town and that is when I knew I had a problem with her.Of course the instructor lead us astray and I think made the situation worse.If I am out walking and see a dog he wants us to turn around and come home.He doesn't want her to get too stressed.We are working with the neighbors fenced dogs to get her use to seeing a dog.I think once I get back from vacation I am going to start walking her in town a few times a week so she can get use to the sounds and sights.She will have had a week at his boarding kennel seeing and hearing other dogs so I am hoping it will desensitize her a little.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

not sure i agree with your current trainer, i think there are other ways of exposing them without stressing them, i have had some pretty agressive dogs, and none of them ever had a problem with walking but not interacting with other dogs. the initial meet up with a friend and dog could be hairy, but i don't give them a chance to react, i just start walking. you really can't hide them away from other dogs no matter how bad the problem is. sometimes i think, we just need to let go of our own anxiety's about our dogs and their issues, no offese at all on that statement, i had to learn to relax and go with the flow type of thing.

debbie


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I do agree w/ debbieb. To get Onyx thru her issues I had to expose her around dogs in small doses, and on the fringe of things. Constantly "stuffing the dog" when she was focused on one~it was always "look at that dog!" and give her a treat. Kept it positive/upbeat, and never giving a correction when she focused or reacted to one.
I never pushed her and we did baby steps. Took obedience class, CGC class(I didn't care if we failed it was for her to get socialized), CU class, agility class. I never wanted to isolate her from other dogs, it would just make them seem more enticing.
They do feel what we are feeling thru the leash. At this time Onyx is pretty good w/ most breeds, but certain ones will still make her react, especially if they are staring her down. We just added a puppy and she is very good w/ him. 
We had a foster(male) GSD for 9 weeks a few mos back and she was fine w/ letting him in the pack as well. 
I never expected a year ago, that she would be this good!
Last year, I started a thread "can fear aggression be overcome" last year, and I think it can be managed, if not overcome fully


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

as i think about it, i know all dogs are different with their own individual issues, i don't know how old yours is and haven't read some of the other posts, but in my own experiences, and currently with Sam 1 yr old, he hates going to classes at the kennel where all the dogs are barking etc. to bad, we still go. when we first started classes there he wouldn't get out of the vehicle, he'd jump in the back of my jeep. i tried talking happy and upbeat to him, it made it worse, because he's the type of dog that knows somethings up if i get to happy. so, i just grabbed the leash and told him to come with me, and he had no choice. i gave him treats, got his focus etc. all the way into the class room. even in the class the first session every time we walked in, he tried to get out, went to the window, door etc. after alot of time, work, and letting him know he wasn't going to pull that on me, because i say when its time to go, he finally got it.
with him, walking with other dogs is much more relaxing, than being in a kennel situation. but thats him. some dog aggressive dogs would be more apt to shut down and be overwhelmed in a kennel than a one on one walk. thats my humble opinion. and again, absolutely no offense, just giving food for thought because i have been there with several of my dog aggressive dogs. its alot of hard work, and trying to find what works best for each individual.

debbie


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I will try to get her out more.I did the 2 weeks of absolutely no dogs like he said.We even put a tarp up at the end of there pen where she could see the neighbors dogs.I am almost positive we can over come this it's just going to take patience on my part.Maybe tomorrow I will take her into town and walk her and do it for a week to see if there is any improvement.Being in the class makes her too uncomfortable so I think for now we will be holding off on group lessons.She wouldn't not want to go she would just get to worked up when all the dogs were there.But again like one of you said we had 2 yappy dogs and I think it got her stressed to listen to them echo in the room.Plus it is hard to find close by.I will not go back to the old trainer unless it is to show her how I worked her out of the aggression.Any advice is appreciated.If it works for you it may for us.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, keep that positive attitude! you will be sucessful with that train of thought!









in the meantime be scouting around for any opportunity to have one on one walk sessions. there may be someone with a non-reactive dog that you haven't even thought of that would walk with you guys! even if you have neighbors you see walking and they have a mild dog, i would ask them if you might join them for a part of thier walk, tell them what you are doing, about your dog etc. who cares.....i have done some pretty crazy out of charactor things for the betterment of my dogs!

debbie


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'm glad to see you're getting <u>Scaredy Dog</u>. That was my 'lightbulb moment' book in understanding and dealing with Ris' issues.









I think one of the (many) great tips in <u>Control Unleashed</u> that I was happy to read on my second time through the book was making a walk just a walk. Basically, on walks your dog does not greet other dogs or people. They just go on a walk with you. That way, they know what to expect and know they will not be forced to interact with anything that makes them uneasy. I had been doing this with Risa without realizing it and now I make it a point that walks are ONLY for walking. No one will be permitted to pet her and dogs aren't allowed to approach. (I have always been really picky about who meets Ris anyway since so many people refuse to listen to me in regards to meeting her and she just ends up getting scared.) This isn't a 100% thing since there are times when Risa decides she would like to say 'Hi' to another dog. But it's pretty rare. It can be a bit more difficult as many people are not good about keeping their dogs at a distance so we spend a lot of time hopping off the path and getting far away to avoid interaction. However, it increases Risa's trust in me since she sees that I am taking initiative to keep her safe and not leaving it in her paws.









As far as the puppy, I'd say it would depend on Athena. I know Risa is very good with puppies and if a puppy comes bounding up to her while we're on a walk, I don't even panic. I know she is non-reactive with puppies. In fact, in the OB classes we assisted in MT, Risa often got to play with the pups in class to help teach them how to play with an adult dog. I've been trying to get her a puppy for the last 2 years or so (a nice confident GSD pup) to help her realize that the world's not quite so scary and give her a friend. I think a pup would work better for us since she's already okay with them. 

If you can find a non-reactive dog, that would be great. I'd offer to volunteer Risa but 1) you're just a bit too far for us to make a day trip out of it and 2) reactive dog + reactive dog = potential for an endless loop of frustration for two handlers.







Though Risa _is_ better about not reacting to reactive dogs (and she is okay around GSDs) I can't guarantee she wouldn't set Athena off even more than just a regular dog would.

Risa has surprised me with walking in a 'pack' with other dogs, though. With as uncomfortable (fearful) as she is around other dogs, she is pretty at ease walking with them. We first tried this with a friend's dog and Risa had no problems. She was only reactive towards the other dogs we passed.







I also met up with a bunch of board members and their dogs in October last year and Risa was fine walking in such a large pack. Some dogs were off leash. A few bumped into her, ran past her, ran towards her. . .and she was okay.

I think the reason your trainer recommended keeping her away from other dogs for 2 weeks has to do with cortisol levels (stress hormone). It can take a couple weeks for their levels to drop and it's possible he was trying to give Athena a chance to calm down completely before working her around other dogs again (I believe Ali Brown mentions this in <u>Scaredy Dog</u>). So it's probably a good idea to follow your trainer's instructions regarding that, imho.







If you do decide to take her out, however, make sure you're armed with treats and start stuffing her face as soon as you see another dog. Make that dog a precursor to something awesome! And, if she goes over threshold, just turn and walk in the other direction and encourage her happily to come with you. 

As you continue to work with her, really watch her body language. I bet you'll start to get really good at deciphering when she's about to go off. This will make it a lot easier to 'get her out of there' if you need to without her needing to have a reactive episode.

I will agree with Suzy that some dogs will never 'change.' I know Risa will always be a fearful dog. However, that hasn't stopped me from trying my hardest to make her life less stressful. I no longer put her in situations she cannot handle (a mistake I made early on) and I do my best to prove to her that she can trust me to not put her in a situation that would cause her harm. She's nowhere near as fearful as she was when I got her so I don't think your attempts to work with Athena will be fruitless. You may never get the 100% confident, non-reactive, okay with everything and everyone dog. I know Risa will never be a Golden Retriever.







But I think you'll be surprised with what you can get with the hard work you're doing with her. Best of luck to you!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Thanks.I know the staying away for 2 weeks was to get her head and body in a better place to start fresh.It did help.He said he saw an improvement in her when he came back.I think I might try down town once,at least there we have other "paths" to follow if we meet a dog she can't get by.On our road I have to be totally proactive and turn around or pass them.The ones on our road are either off leash or obnoxious.Whatever I do I will for sure have lots of treats to stuff in her face to make it OK.Now that I know how she reacts I don't try to let her greet any dogs.I keep her close and keep walking.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Allie, what type collar do you use? You probably have changed them up, but sometimes the collar will help or hurt w/ reactiveness.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Good point, Jane. I know I got Risa an Easy-Walk harness for her reactivity. I felt better handling her in it because I knew she wasn't going to hurt herself lunging and I felt I had better control over her body mass with the Easy-Walk rather than a collar. I still walk her in the Easy-Walk jic though she really doesn't need it anymore.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I switched from a prong w/ Onyx to a GL and then the sensations harness, to a no-slip adjustable. I use the no-slip when we are alone, but now when I take both dogs for walks, I am using a prong again w/ no problems. The prong will ramp up an already reactive dog.
Some trainers recommend the GL for reactive dogs, the ears have calming pressure points and it fits over that area. When the dog pulls, it puts pressure there, calming the dog. Onyx hated it, though. I used it for about 3 weeks.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I have all sorts of things.I'm not sure which one works best for her.I use to always use the prong but then when he said she had anxiety issues I bought the Halti and I have a harness I was going to use for playing on long line or walking in the woods.She pulls too much with the regular collar.I feel more comfortable with the prong but the Halti is probably better even though she dislikes it.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*



> Originally Posted By: AllieGNo we are doing in home training with a trainer.He doesn't really want contact with dogs at this time.We did a 6 week obedience class in town and that is when I knew I had a problem with her.Of course the instructor lead us astray and I think made the situation worse.If I am out walking and see a dog he wants us to turn around and come home.He doesn't want her to get too stressed.We are working with the neighbors fenced dogs to get her use to seeing a dog.I think once I get back from vacation I am going to start walking her in town a few times a week so she can get use to the sounds and sights.She will have had a week at his boarding kennel seeing and hearing other dogs so I am hoping it will desensitize her a little.


Too bad you don't live near me.

I offer to walk my dog with any out of control dog we come across when were out walking unless they look just too aggressive like they would instantly attack. A few poor women were almost being dragged by their dogs.

Hope is not totally non reactive, but she is friendly. I don't know how much it helps the other dogs in the long run, but they sure calm down when walking with her for a black or two.

Might be hard to ask folks, but why not?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*

i really think you should ask people to walk with you. walking with the right dogs can almost be theraputic for a dog like this. as i said it worked like a charm for me.

it would even be worth hiring a private trainer with a dog to do this with you if you don't feel you can ask others. you call the shots.! it would certainly be better than keeping her away from other dogs.

or if you have a local dog walker service, you could contact them and see if they have a few non-reactive dogs you could join in walking with. the resources are out there if your willing to seek them out.

i also wouldn't let her decide to turn around and go home when you have walked her and you see other dogs coming. i would take her off to the side make her sit/stay or down/stay and have her focus on you with treats, and i would stand between her and the other dog. by her making the decision to turn around and go home she is running the show, making the decisions which should be your call. she will never gain confidence by retreating.

debbie


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*

i also think you should still take her to a class, i had to swallow my pride quite a few times in the past and continue classes even though i had this problem. again i think we as owners of these types of dogs have more of an issue/anxiety being out in public with the dogs knowing what might happen.

if i were you, i would start going and observing classes, talking to trainers about your dog. any good trainer would work with you in a class setting. With my current dog Sam, we are doing agility, the trainer always tells people about Sam he's a bit nervy, can get touchy, everyone handles it fine and act appropiately. if you can find a small class with just a few dogs i think you would have great success. dogs are creatures of habit, and they get used to things, it may be rocky in the beginning, but at least in a class with a good trainer, they can point out what you might be doing, or whatever and help correct it.

debbie


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*

When I get back from vacation I will check into doing some more dog to dog exercises.There isn't a lot of obedience classes close by.I know this guy does agility and I think he has some group classes.I will also have those books to help me understand what is going on and what I should do..In the mean time I will just get her out and if we see a dog so be it.She'll deal with it.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*

just becuz your dog doesn't like other dog does not mean you cant get a puppy. it is a VERY VERY RARE dog that is vicious to puppies. Paige is mean as a snake and she has raised three puppies over the years. she also cuddles with our rabbits, our cats and our guniea pig. any animal within the pack she is cool to. number one rule in my house is no within pack aggression. i don't take a poll to see if my pets want another animal, if I want one than they have to adapt to it, period. one thing my trainers taught me (paige went back to school at 3 yrs old) is that things are black/white in dog training. it doesn't matter if the aggression is fear based-it is not acceptable, period. I doubt that your dog is any worse than paige was cause she was just down right dangerous.amazingly when i called the shots INSTEAD of her than she got the message. she will never be dog friendly but she is dog tolerant. I have another dog who can go to the dog park and perhaps your next puppy will be more social. I wouldn't over think all this to much but i would accept that your dog may never play with other dogs like you want.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*

I will definitely do things different next time.I will be putting the puppy in daycare at least once a week so it has interactions with dogs.I will start OB classes right after the shots are up to date.If I am reading her right she acts the same way with the cats as meeting dogs.She doesn't cuddle, she aggravates and scares them.After a while I think she starts to scare herself and that is when she gets grumpy with them or us.She has never hurt any of the cats or Lexi in there play/fight incidents.
I guess this is one of those subjects that everyone will have a different way of dealing with it.I am tossed now because I have so many different ways of handling it coming at me.Thanks for all the suggestion.Only time will tell which method will work for us.


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## pjindy00 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: Moral support from fellow aggression survivors*

Well, I haven't read all the replies yet, but just wanted to give you a little more support! I went through fear aggression with our (at the time) 3 year old GSD female. She was very dog reactive on leash, and walks were VERY stressful for both of us.

It's been over 2 years, and we can now peacefully go for our walks, go to the shot clinic, and other normal activities. I still avoid crowded dog areas as she is a dominant type and other females especially will still get a rise out of her on occassion if they are close, but it's not a stressor for me anymore as I know when she's getting too worried about something.

It's hard to wait for things to change, but try to see it from your dog's eyes. She's scared of the other dogs and her limited ability to protect herself - therefore, she's reacting. She needs you to understand that she needs time to work through the process and realize that she's not in danger, and that you will protect her. Once I saw things better through my dog's eyes, it helped with my patience for the situation - hopefully it'll be helpful for you as well.

Unfortunately, this is a time and slowly adding exposure to situations - sounds like you're on the right track with not overwhelming her. Stick with it, you'll get there eventually!! I'm terrible at waiting as well, so I know it can be done!


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGMy thoughts are I should be exposing her to other dogs but the trainer doesn't want me to do anything where I know I will see other dogs.Before I started with him I was going to take her into town and walk her alot figuring I was bound to meet up with dogs that she would pass but he isn't saying to do that.What is everyone's thoughts on it?I had started to walk with the neighbor and her dog before seeking the trainer but I am not comfortable with her dogs.I have seen what her dogs can do to a dog if it gets loose.
> I'll try to keep walking her by the neighbor that i know the dog will bark and try to go little goals.Thanks for the support.


Meeting up with strange dogs walking that might be barking pulling to get at her etc. might be a bad thing and make it worse.

Also you need to make sure you have handle on your own emotional state, body language and actions or you could trigger it or reinforce it and make it worse, inadvertently reinforcing her through your own fearful or excited state that she is doing the right thing in being fearful aggressive.

If I was going to use another dog, I would find some people with rock solid stable dogs beforehand that will not react to her, and will allow you to be calm as well so she sees there is nothing to react to. 

Create a controlled situation where she and you can succeed in other words.

I would listen to the trainer, at least for now.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Sometimes something comes into our lives for a reason. You seem to know very well and aren't afraid to admit you lack in the patience dept. Could be your Athena came into your life to help you learn a very important coping skill .. patience.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I thought I would fill everyone in on her boarding adventure.She was boarded for 9 days while we were on vacation and did good.The trainer was able to get her to interact with his dog for a little bit.Here is his description of there interaction.I am a little more reassured we will get through this some day.Hopefully sooner than later.

*
Hi Alison,
Unfortunately no, I didn't get the video as hoped. Things rarely go as planned around here







Not to much to report that you don't already know. Athena is easily stimulated and has a very low frustration threshold. After spending some time with her; I'm convinced this is what we're seeing as "aggression". She was fine with McKenna so long as I kept her in a down-stay (McKenna) When I had McKenna run past her, she snapped. So in addition to your current work, our next session we'll go over calming exercises to help build her tolerance. 


Other than that, she's a sweetheart












Mike*


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

well paige has never been called a sweetheart by a trainer that's for sure.if you need hope here it is-Paige attended the mutt march for the humane society on sunday. she was standing in a crowd of dogs cause we were all trying to get on the news (we did). I lectured her all the way there that she better be good-and she was. she was even letting dogs sniff her butt!
I tell people all the time-dogs shape up when they know you are serious. I accept that she is doesn't want to play with dogs, all she has to do is tolerate other dogs and behave.
I have an aggressive dog, but she is still going to do all the other things a dog can do like go to the mutt march. she just probably won't be at a dog park and that's ok.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

As much as I want to be able to have her play with other dogs I realize it may not happen.I do want her to be able to tolerate other dogs though.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

she will if you lay down the law, GSDs really are waiting to see just when you got the guts to call the shots. Believe me,Paige is legendary for her scariness. I bet your GSD was amazingly well behaved for your trainer.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I LOVE Paige stories! And yes, some of these situations really are just that... a dog getting away with a tantrum habit because nobody has shown him/her that it isn't allowed, either because the owner doesn't know how to do this, or physically cannot and needs another set of hands to help out for a few sessions in a row.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

IT's funny you mention that.I am sure she was super good for him because he makes her.I do to the best of my power.Now the other trainer he has doesn't make her.My Mom even commented on how she dragged him out of the pen when he brought her to me.I know she wouldn't have done that to Mike.I need to make her calm down when she is excited with the cats or meeting new people.If she doesn't over power me I make her listen in those situations.I'm getting better about meeting up with dogs and people because I am reassured she won't attack and the calmer I am she will be too.We passed a dog in his yard tonight and I didn't say a thing.I don't think she saw him and I just pretended I didn't see him either.When she spazed out at the neighbors dogs I corrected her and she sat there and chilled and I kept treating her for being good.We also passes a man getting into his truck and she would normally have barked and looked mean but she just walked by and I kept feeding her treats and telling her she was a good girl.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

seriously this dog may always be a spitfire! and that's not to down you out but Paige is ten years old and she is a fireball.(some would say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree)LOL but these make for the best kind of dogs-the CHALLENGING dogs.These kind of dogs really live off the whole RESPECT angle and if they don't respect you then it's on!! they know they are smart, and they know they are scary and they will use it to their advantage.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

She was such a quiet pup that I figure from here on out I will have my hands full with her.I'll love her no matter how she is and we will work through her problems.She's my little Sweetie Pie who I wouldn't trade for the world.She was brought to me for a reason or purpose and eventually we will figure it out.


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