# I know this has been asked before, but I'm desperate (biting related)



## Mack_HRE (Jul 15, 2017)

First of all, thanks to those of you who responded in my topic on potty training. It has gotten much better.

Ok, like the topic title says, I've got an issue with biting and I know there are topics on this subject. I promise I have read them, but I need some specific guidance.

My puppy's biting is getting worse. He's biting now when he wants to get down or if you're not taking him somewhere he wants to go. He struggles and whines. Now, he's a puppy, I get it. But NOTHING seems to phase him with regards to correcting his behavior. I know it takes a long time for things to get better, but my issue is that NONE of the techniques I've read about do anything but amp him up even more.

1. "Ow." This one is just laughable with my puppy. He doesn't care. In fact, I think he takes it as a cue to snap like an alligator.
2. "Walk away." He either follows, ankle biting, or he just starts sniffing stuff. 
3. "Neck pinch." He just waits and then snaps/nips.
4. "Hold on side." Waits and snaps/nips.
5. "Press teeth on gums." This doesn't seem to bother him at all.

And various other techniques. I know that consistency + time is key, but like I said, my problem is that NONE OF THESE get a positive reaction, so why should I continue using them? What else can I do?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It would be helpful to mention how old your puppy is, and how long you've had him. Also, how much time you devoted to each of the techniques you've tried.


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## Mack_HRE (Jul 15, 2017)

He's almost 9 weeks.

I don't know how much time I've spent with these techniques, but I'd say I use them every time we play. I know time is important but my concern is just that, whether it's the first time I've done it or the 100th time, there isn't a POSITIVE reaction. I'm no expert so I defer to you guys, but it seems to me that it would be pointless to continue using a technique that doesn't encourage more negative behavior. Everything I've read to do so far has just encouraged him to bite more.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how do you play?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Did you get him at 8 weeks old? If so, you've only been working on bite inhibition for a week or less. It's a process that can take several months, and sometimes a combination of several things works better than any one technique by itself. If you've tried any or all of those things a couple of times and they didn't work immediately then it's likely due to lack of patience and consistency over time, not that they aren't going to work at all. 

I know it seems like a long time when you've got a little land shark hanging off you by it's teeth, but give it some time. 

1) When you say "ow", it's it a very loud, sharp sound? I will say this didn't work with all my puppies, but in order to have a chance it needs to be a shriek loud enough to startle him. And even if it does, it may only stop him briefly. That's okay - mark that, even if it's just a second, and then resume play. This worked best with Keefer, who would stop and look at me in surprise when I shrieked. 

2) This also isn't going to work with all puppies. It was the most effective with Cassidy, who was 20 weeks old when we got her. For her, the most effective punishment was removal of attention, so we used that. With a more independent puppy, or one that you haven't established a relationship with, they may not value your attention enough yet for it to help. 

And generally, I don't use this the first time puppy bites, they get a couple tries to do right before fun ends and I'm gone. She was super destructive and I literally couldn't leave her alone for more than 30 seconds or a minute at a time, so I'd do a couple of very brief tries to get her to stop. When I left, I'd close the door, so she'd be alone on the other side. If after a couple of tries she went right back to it, she'd go in her crate for a brief timeout. Eventually, I could say "do you want a timeout?", and she'd stop whatever she was doing immediately. Smart dog! 

I also like using a toy, and with Dena and Halo, I'd always have plenty nearby to shove in their mouths. When I got home from work and went out to the garage pen to let Dena in, I'd pick up a tug on my way, so I had something on hand to engage her with. And don't think you can just give him a toy and that will do the trick, you need to play with him with it. With a puppy who chases after you biting at your clothes a toy is probably a good thing to try. And if he keeps dropping his end of the toy to bite at your arm instead, my personal choice would be to go with removal of attention as a supplemental technique, because he's seeking out engagement with you and needs to learn how to do that the right way. Play nice, we keep playing. Keep biting me, I go away.

Again, whatever thing or combo I did with each of my puppies, I did it more than just a couple of times before abandoning it for something else. 

I've never done #3, #4, or #5.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Cassidy's mom gave really good advice. I am not a trainer and a first time dog owner. I have 2 kids under 12. Our pup is just about 6 months old now. We got him at 7 weeks. I was NOT prepared for the land shark! I did a ton of reading and came up with a plan. What worked for my husband did not work for me or our kids. My husband a big guy with a big fist could say "No bite" and make fist in the pups mouth and he would stop still does. For me patience and consistency worked best. I let the pup bite me and worked towards a soft bite with redirection and the withdraw of attention and/or time outs. I worked on a soft bite only when his mood was right, redirection when it was not. *I had to always be prepared when interacting with the puppy.* To me that was a leash on, toys in hand and near and an effective escape route lol. My kids barely got to enjoy the pup for months. At 6 months he still becomes a an excited spaz sometimes and bites, but it is rare, and I can see it becoming *extinct*, a quick reminder "Get Toy" and he is off finding a toy to play with us. He is a joy to be around. Now when he does spaz his bite is gentle and if not only recently does he sympathize with an ouch and stop immediately. Like if we are playing and he accidently gets a finger with part of the toy (usually my fault) the pressure instantly stops and he releases. Hope that helps. 
I don't know if you have heard of the zoomies, but our pup each night had a witching hour of just insane energy he needed to get rid of. It did not matter how much exercise he got during the day. I would highly recommend a long line and an open field so the pup can just RUN his heart out, if you can safely off leash. Not a dog park imho. I am sure others have done this much quicker than I, but that's my story. I think most people will *not* recommend you letting your puppy bite you and I truly understand why. Good luck


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Apex1 said:


> I was NOT prepared for the land shark! I did a ton of reading and came up with a plan. What worked for my husband did not work for me or our kids. My husband a big guy with a big fist could say "No bite" and make fist in the pups mouth and he would stop still does. For me patience and consistency worked best.


Yes, that's an interesting point - men have deeper voices, and can have a different physical presence than woman and children. Dogs are experts at reading body language so it's not unusual that they'd react differently. Standing tall, adopting a confident demeanor, and lowering your voice can sometimes help. 



> I let the pup bite me and worked towards a soft bite with redirection and the withdraw of attention and/or time outs. I worked on a soft bite only when his mood was right, redirection when it was not. *I had to always be prepared when interacting with the puppy.* To me that was a leash on, toys in hand and near and an effective escape route lol. My kids barely got to enjoy the pup for months.


:thumbup: Good for you for having a plan and always being ready to implement it. I personally think that makes a huge difference.



> I don't know if you have heard of the zoomies, but our pup each night had a witching hour of just insane energy he needed to get rid of. It did not matter how much exercise he got during the day.


Ah, the zoomies! :rofl: The good thing about the zoomies is that they precipitated a crash, and then we'd get a little peace and calm for awhile. Most evenings there would be a period of time where no matter what I did, Halo was a little hellion. Nothing made a difference, nothing. She was like an overtired toddler spun out of control. I treated it as such by giving her a break in her crate, and she would generally calm down and take a nap. But when she tucked her butt under and her ears back and took off in laps through the house we usually just waited for her to wear herself out and crash on her own.


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## Mack_HRE (Jul 15, 2017)

Thanks for the replies so far.

I feel like I'm not explaining myself well enough. It's not that I'm "just not doing it enough times." I get that. It's that when I do it, there is no positive behavior, so I'm not actually achieving anything. If I go "OW!!!!" really loudly, and the dog doesn't stop biting me, why is he going to stop biting me after the 20th time I yell "OW!!!!" 

I'm not trying to be rude but I'm at my wit's end. Today I tried the "ow" and walk away thing. The consequence of that is that my puppy and I don't play at all, because as soon as I come back, it's right back to chomping on my arm. It's just a constant cycle of "ow" and no playing.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I get you loud and clear. 
It took me months of work, wish I could say just do this and it will stop. Honestly it got worse before it got better. Be consistent. Find a toy the pup loves to play with you with I have heard flirt poles, mine loved a rag tied on a string, rubber textured toys, bully sticks, balls. If your frustrated put the pup in the crate, pup acting up put it in the crate, use our crate all the time. I hope you find what you are looking for I know it's hard. Ouch as a young puppy never worked for me just hyped him up more.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Keep it up. When a bite gets too hard, play ends. Pups figure it out after awhile. And it does slow down once teething ends. 
"Get a toy" is a very good skill. Even at three years old my big boy likes to hold our arms when we come home. We tell him to "get a toy" and he finds something to hold instead of slobbering on our arms. 

just remember that you are more interesting than a toy. For awhile my boy would actually get annoyed when we offered him a toy instead of our arm. He didn't want the toy. So we switched to thick leather gloves. It was more interactive and he loved it. When he learned to chomp hard we stopped wearing the gloves and they became tug toys.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mack_HRE said:


> Thanks for the replies so far.
> 
> I feel like I'm not explaining myself well enough. It's not that I'm "just not doing it enough times." I get that. It's that when I do it, there is no positive behavior, so I'm not actually achieving anything. If I go "OW!!!!" really loudly, and the dog doesn't stop biting me, why is he going to stop biting me after the 20th time I yell "OW!!!!"
> 
> I'm not trying to be rude but I'm at my wit's end. Today I tried the "ow" and walk away thing. The consequence of that is that my puppy and I don't play at all, because as soon as I come back, it's right back to chomping on my arm. It's just a constant cycle of "ow" and no playing.


"I feel like I'm not explaining myself well enough." 
??
I'll ask again then . How are you playing with the dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes dogs think the OWs! are actually playing or amping them up. Some people think IPE! works better. I dunno. I say Eh! No, Gentle with my fingers! And I get my fingers out of Harm's way. I also stop any sort of game when any biting happens. 

I will, several times a day give a treat with an open palm and praise the dog, emphasizing the word Gentle, IF he takes it gently. Good Gentle. Some use Easy, or Careful. I remind them, Gentle offer it, and if he takes it gently, "Good Gentle, good boy." You are teaching a concept and connecting it to a word, so it is important to use the word every time. 

There is no hurry. Do this and nothing more for a week. Won't hurt anything, but use that word every time. And then you make it tougher by putting your thumb over the treat, and offer. Remind, Gentle, and if he takes it gentle with your thumb over it, praise as before and continue. Maybe a couple of days of this, if he is not 100%, let it take longer. 

No hurry. Keep using the word. SIT is easier because you are teaching a command that you can help your dog reach a set position and praise. With GENTLE you are shaping a behavior a concept. Remind, praise, both using the word. Say the word gently. Gentle. or Easy, or Careful, or even Nice. But be consistent.

Now if that is good, the next step is to close your hand around the treat. Remind the Gentle. If he licks your hand, open immediately, let him have the treat and say Good Gentle! Good boy! Even if he does it well, keep doing this for a few days at least. 

Now you are getting close to graduation. The treat is held by your thumb and index finger -- the way most novices offer a treat to their dog -- the most dangerous way. Remind and praise using your word, Gentle. Practice it often. 

Now you can apply that word to other things. "GENTLE with my fingers." "GENTLE with the baby." 

Remind, remind, remind. and praise. 

Remember that your puppy is still a baby and he will forget himself when he is excited and amped up. So you still have to be careful. 

Well, that is what I do.


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## montse (Jun 21, 2017)

I think everyone gave really good advice. I'll just give my two cents.

For us, what works best are timeouts. Similarly to Cassidy's Mom, when our dog gets too rough or misbehaves, she gets a warning. If she keeps on misbehaving, she is left alone without access to us. I don't particularly enjoy doing this, quite the opposite, but sometimes it's the only way she understands.

In terms of biting, we went through a biting phase where she'd start biting us whenever we were getting ready to go out and putting our shoes on. It was so frustrating that I eventually ended up crying one day. We asked an ethologist to come and with the advice she gave us in just one session things improved greatly over the next days.

She recommended doing the "OUCH" scream, but it should sound similar to what a dog would do, and I was never really able to do it properly. What we did instead was other things such as redirecting her (e.g. asking for a sit) or praising and giving her treats if she didn't bite. The last one was easy because she loves food. She got the hang of it quite quickly. You could try giving him treats when he plays gently.

Another option that just came to my mind (and I guess it's similar to what other suggested) is to give something to the dog to hold such as a toy or a chewing bone that he really likes. If he's holding something, he won't be able to bite.

If you're feeling overwhelmed by it all though, as you seem to be, get an appointment with an ethologist. Not only for your dog, but for you. It really helped me psychologically because it gave me/us confidence, it helped me to unburden myself of all the questions I had (are we doing this and that right?, is her behaviour normal?, etc.) and we knew there was someone there who could help us if we had trouble dealing with her. Although we can try to help you, it's different from having an expert actually see what your dog is doing and "diagnosing" him.


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## Mack_HRE (Jul 15, 2017)

Thanks everyone for your input.

I've tried to strictly use the "OW!" and ignore method, just for the sake of being consistent. He's becoming, in my eyes, more aggressive. Lunging, snapping, chasing, whining. It's very troubling and I've been very upset for the past few days. Not sure what else to do at this point. Will try to set up an appointment with a professional.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

He is 9 weeks old. I really don't think you need a professional at this stage. And I dare say the biting is going to get worse before it gets better.

We always had a toy with us, every one of us (myself, my husband, my two kids) always carried a toy with us. Any time the biting started we would give him a toy. It was awful, I felt like I never got a cuddle with a little puppy because you couldn't get near him without him trying to bite you. So we played other games... find treats in boxes, tug, soccer, simple training (sit, down, stay), we never did any rough and tumble or chasing games as that would just result in tears. 

We would also do the "ow" and walk away and close him outside but I am not so sure that helped very much, he would get upset at being ignored and then more excited and bitey when we went back to play again. I found redirecting with a game a much better option.

At 12 weeks I was at my wits end, but by 14 weeks he had finally figured out that biting was a no go. Stick with it, 9 weeks is just a baby still.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are really at the point of bringing in the big guns with a 9 week old puppy, maybe you should seriously consider your choice in dog breeds, and maybe returning yours to the breeder.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Forget the OW crap. It is just silly. First understand that you are going to get bit, sometimes puppy teeth suck. Even a graze can draw blood. But puppies bite. First thing is to accept that, next thing to do is to redirect to a rope, or other soft chew toy. So puppy starts to get mouthy just say no and stick a rope or soft tug in his mouth. Then you play tug with the pup. Let Him win the games of tug. When he circles back around grab the tug and play some more. Or grab a ball and roll it on the floor. Let him chase it around. Do some obedience with the pup. Mental stimulus is going to tire him out a lot quicker than physical. 
It takes time but eventually the pup will get it and stop being so mouthy. Shoot, one day you will look back and miss the young puppy biting, zoomie stage.


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## Mack_HRE (Jul 15, 2017)

selzer said:


> If you are really at the point of bringing in the big guns with a 9 week old puppy, maybe you should seriously consider your choice in dog breeds, and maybe returning yours to the breeder.


No, I definitely don't want to take him back. I think right now I'm just so afraid of messing up and I was just especially upset with myself yesterday. I'm just going to keep working with him and using toys to redirect. I'm definitely done with "OW!," because that just hasn't worked for me.


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## Voltereite (Jul 28, 2017)

Mack_HRE said:


> No, I definitely don't want to take him back. I think right now I'm just so afraid of messing up and I was just especially upset with myself yesterday. I'm just going to keep working with him and using toys to redirect. I'm definitely done with "OW!," because that just hasn't worked for me.


Your little guy sounds just like mine who us currently 9 weeks old, and you sound just like me!
He'd rather bite me than any toy, and I've been stressed out because I want to make sure I do everything "perfectly" (haha, what world do I live in?)

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mack_HRE said:


> Thanks everyone for your input.
> 
> I've tried to strictly use the "OW!" and ignore method, just for the sake of being consistent. He's becoming, in my eyes, more aggressive. Lunging, snapping, chasing, whining. It's very troubling and I've been very upset for the past few days. Not sure what else to do at this point. Will try to set up an appointment with a professional.


How are you playing with the dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Forget the OW crap. It is just silly.

oh yeah .

how are you interacting with the dog ?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

our boy , as a pup, wanted nothing to do with toys and really loved to wrestle. We started with big thick leather gloves and let him "play rough" while we wore them. But no gloves meant no rough play. He got to do this a couple of times a day and it gave him an outlet for the puppy play that comes so naturally to them. Later the bite became strong enough to crunch and the gloves became a tug toy on a rope. I also got balls that I could stick my fingers into. I'd sit on the ground, toss the ball and tug and wrestle a bit when he brought it back. It was a glorious game. Once teething was over the urge to mouth us dropped way down. He still loves to test his strength against my hubby and it is a fun game to watch. They use a tug and if he ever tastes skin it is amazing how quickly he changes his focus to not hurt the tug holder. 

Keep in mind I've never read or heard of a trainer suggesting the leather glove game, but it worked very well for us.


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## JJBenson (Nov 14, 2020)

I just found this form so don't know what the protocols are here, but I do have a couple of questions. We have a 41/2 mo old pup from a well know breeder (in this area). We had him since about 7 wks.. He has always been "nippy" but at first just excused it as "new pup" behavior. Now he is a 47 lb. dog with puppy behavior. He behaves well with other dogs and his limited experience with other people. But with us there is a threshold he reaches when playing and the jumping and biting starts. It's not an attack mode "attack" but regressive to a point. I can stop is most of the time but my wife usually can't as well. (I should add I have some experience around dogs. In the 70s and 80s I was a DEA Special Agent, worked with local LE a lot, and have been around dogs a lot but certainly not a handler.) As I mentioned, there is an "excitement threshold" that turns in to a frenzy. I think it's play but not fun play for us. 

He's been through one beginning puppy class and does well in the classes, does well with other does, does well with the sit, stay, up, down and the like commands we work with him every day with but come Iver (his name), recall, works only when he wants. He's a very smart dog with an independence streak a mile long. He is enrolled in a 4 week "day camp" training course that starts in a little over a month and a 4 session group class before that and hopefully those will improve his over all obedience.

If there is one thing that's a problem is the biting and jumping up. Like to work hard on that now. It's been hard to find training classes because of the plague and, apparently, large number of new pet owners. Anyway, any help would be appreciated. The replys already here have given us a nice path. 

Another question is; will these behaviors "age out"? If so at what age range usually.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

There are a ton of hundred-post threads on biting. You really need to spend a few hours reading them and the many videos that are posted within them. Use the "search community" box above for "puppy biting".

jmo, forget the ow and yipe and ignore stuff. I have never used a "timeout" thing either as these aren't unruly toddlers, they're doing what comes naturally at that age.You also don't need to let them draw blood for 8 months while they "grow out of it. 

Happy reading.


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