# Any one have any experience with Shewana Shepherds in IL??



## JPrice

Hey everybody! I just joined here but I've been checking out the site for some time now. My girlfriend and I have been planning on getting a GSD for months and have spoke with several breeders. If there is anyone who owns a Shewanna puppy or has any other info on them besides their website, that would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks


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## GSDElsa

No experience, but just the fact they are not offering pedigree info on these dogs, focus heavily on "colors", and appear to do NO working of their dogs, sell their dogs on a first come, first serve basis:

Shewana Shepherds uses a "first come, first serve" policy for our Reservation Plan. As reservations are received, the name of the buyer is placed on our reservation list. The first reservation is then able to make an appointment to see the particular litter in order to make their selection. The second reservation will be next, and so on. 

I would, quite honestly, look elsewhere.

Based on the information provided on their website I see them nothing more than a glorified puppy mill. I mean, they let you "order" your dog?!

They make you approve your food choice through them or it nullifies the guarantee.


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## robinhuerta

I know someone who "took care" of their kennel for years......let's just say,.(out of the 6+ GSD dogs she owns)... she does *not* own one of their dogs....
Personally....I do not know the breeders.


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## NancyJ

I know you don't want comments on the website but sometimes......that is more than enough.


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## onyx'girl

Shewana Shepherds ~ Home of Truly Special German Shepherd Dogs!

I see nothing on pedigree info either...I'd look elsewhere, so many other good breeders to choose from! 

Did you see this sticky?
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## JPrice

robinhuerta said:


> I know someone who "took care" of their kennel for years......let's just say,.(out of the 6+ GSD dogs she owns)... she does *not* own one of their dogs....
> Personally....I do not know the breeders.


Yikes. Thanks for the input. I've been researching getting a GSD in Illinois for months now. The only problem is that I'm planning for the future, and wanted to call ahead to all of the breeders. I've read many good things about you all at Team Huerta but can't seem to get the website to work or find tons of information. I'm a looking to get a puppy in August if that helps and any other information would be appreciated as well. We are set on getting one, but our current living situation is holding us back until August 1st. 
Thanks


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## vat

I have had 3 dogs from there. Please PM me if you want to chat.


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## vat

GSDElsa said:


> No experience, but just the fact they are not offering pedigree info on these dogs, focus heavily on "colors", and appear to do NO working of their dogs, sell their dogs on a first come, first serve basis:
> 
> Shewana Shepherds uses a "first come, first serve" policy for our Reservation Plan. As reservations are received, the name of the buyer is placed on our reservation list. The first reservation is then able to make an appointment to see the particular litter in order to make their selection. The second reservation will be next, and so on.
> 
> I would, quite honestly, look elsewhere.
> 
> Based on the information provided on their website I see them nothing more than a glorified puppy mill. I mean, they let you "order" your dog?!
> 
> They make you approve your food choice through them or it nullifies the guarantee.


You do NOT order your dog! When you pay a deposit AFTER viewing the parents you are placed on the list. Just like any other breeder here in this state it is if you pay first you get first pick, etc.


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## vat

Oh and I also forgot to add you should not call a breeder a puppy mill unless you have personal experience! It is slander!


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## robinhuerta

Hopefully.....we should have a "working website" in about 2 weeks.
We are currently adding pics to the gallery.....and my "computer person" can only work on the site on weekends.
It will be a no "frills" site.....just info about us, our dogs (past & present)..which will shape our future.
I will post the link...as soon as it is up & running.
Thanks to all who have shown an interest in us!
Robin


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## onyx'girl

With all due respect, Valerie...responsible breeders will pick the puppy to match the prospective buyers after an extensive interview to be sure they are getting what they want, and the pup is also going to a good fit to match the pups personality.
Placing a pup with the first reservation and then going down the list isn't a good way to match pups with new owners.


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## robinhuerta

Vat.....many breeders get the term "puppy mill" thrown at them from time to time....most get thick skin, and ignore it.
Every forum that I have visited...has had some form of negative input from posters, regarding breeders. (not all is bashing).
An *opinion* was asked above.....and only *opinions* were answered...
If you are happy with your dogs from a particular kennel...then that should be stated as well......another *opinion* to add.


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## vat

You are correct Onyx, and this breeder will do just that. I speak from experience so I really wish people who have none would stop bashing!

Yes this breeder stood by me when one of her pups had kidney problems. She unlike many breeders did not void my warranty when I told her I was not going to return him. Instead she promised to replace my beloved whenever he passed because I was going to love him for as long as he was here. And she kept her word. I have since gotten 2 more dogs and have had very long conversations with her. She does not sell for the money and she knows her bloodlines very well.

Sorry to seem snarky but how would any of the breeders here feel to be talked about in a negative light by people who did not even know them?


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## holland

With all due respect Jane...sometimes people do things in different ways which by the way does not make them either a good or a bad breeder. I had a lot of choices with my last puppy-the breeder didn't select her for me-and my breeder is respectable Things aren't just black and white


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## GSDElsa

vat said:


> You do NOT order your dog! When you pay a deposit AFTER viewing the parents you are placed on the list. Just like any other breeder here in this state it is if you pay first you get first pick, etc.


Actually, no breeder should hand out puppies like candy. "First pick" should not exist based on order you put your deposit down. Dogs should be matched with prospective owners based on the needs and wants of the owners and who will be the best match for each puppy.

As far as the "ordering" thing....they specifically say:

*Ordering and/or reserving your Shewana Shepherd is easy!...*

Their words, not mine.

They have 39 breeding dogs and apparently (based on the information they are providing), do not work the dogs in any capacity. You can call that whatever you want, I suppose.

Although if you're going to threaten me, you should probably get it right  In written form, it's libel. But, since I am forming my opinion based on readily available information on their website and clearly stated such facts.....:shrug: It is what it is.


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## vat

robinhuerta said:


> Vat.....many breeders get the term "puppy mill" thrown at them from time to time....most get thick skin, and ignore it.
> Every forum that I have visited...has had some form of negative input from posters, regarding breeders. (not all is bashing).
> An *opinion* was asked above.....and only *opinions* were answered...
> If you are happy with your dogs from a particular kennel...then that should be stated as well......another *opinion* to add.


You are correct and my apologies. It is just very frustrating when I have made comments in the past regarding this breeder I got bashed because her website is not up to par. I think people should be encouraged to call the breeder or visit in person before judging based on a website. I have seen some very impressive websites but upon a phone chat was left feeling not so warm and fuzzy. Can't judge a book by its cover 
I am just a bit sensitive today I guess


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## vat

holland said:


> with all due respect jane...sometimes people do things in different ways which by the way does not make them either a good or a bad breeder. I had a lot of choices with my last puppy-the breeder didn't select her for me-and my breeder is respectable things aren't just black and white


thank you!


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## holland

It sounds like Valerie feels like she got it right-she is happy with her experience with the breeder and the breeder stood by her when her dog had problems-important information based on facts


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## JPrice

I wasn't trying to stir up some conflict. Just really only asking for help, and opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has one. There is no reason to get offended. I'm only trying to figure everything out and answer all of my questions. I mean it is very sketchy that she voids the warranty over just simply changing the food, and she also doesn't include the pedigree info. To spend $1,500.00 on a dog I want all of the information possible, and I want my dog to hopefully be like what I told the breeder I was looking for.


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## onyx'girl

holland said:


> With all due respect Jane...sometimes people do things in different ways which by the way does not make them either a good or a bad breeder. I had a lot of choices with my last puppy-the breeder didn't select her for me-and my breeder is respectable Things aren't just black and white


Of course many pups within the litter are much the same, so breeders will let the new owner choose between a few, but to give someone who is "first on the list" first pick just isnt a good way to set the pup up to succeed.
If I were a breeder, I certainly wouldn't want my pups to be placed that way.


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## holland

Just wondering how you know all this-someone make you queen for the day-or did you just happen to pick the right name breeder...Oh and just curious what does succeed mean Sch III at the nationals


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## vat

onyx'girl said:


> Of course many pups within the litter are much the same, so breeders will let the new owner choose between a few, but to give someone who is "first on the list" first pick just isnt a good way to set the pup up to succeed.
> If I were a breeder, I certainly wouldn't want my pups to be placed that way.


You may be right but I know allot of breeders that do that. Including one in the burbs here that is well known for training police dogs. I am not an expert but I do know that I was directed to a certain litter based on what I was looking for. One male was removed as she felt he was to spunky for what I wanted. I just did not want you to think I had no direction from the breeder.

To the OP, I think this subject will always spark a fire  There are many people here that titles are very important to them and that is ok. There are others not so much so and that is ok too. There is so much to be learned here by everyone and we can disagree and still get along and respect each other. Why I love it here!


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## vat

And to clarify the ordering part, if you actually click that order button you are taken to more information. You do not order online.


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## JPrice

Hey VAT just sent another PM.


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## onyx'girl

holland said:


> Just wondering how you know all this-someone make you queen for the day-or did you just happen to pick the right name breeder...Oh and just curious what does succeed mean Sch III at the nationals


No, I mean succeed within a household! Just look at the dogs that are too much for their new owners the owners need help to manage their dogs because they are too energetic or sometimes too laid back for what the owner had planned
Onyx was one pup that had to be placed carefully because she showed dominance at an early age. Many of the potential owners wanted her because she was a bi-color, and the breeder said no, she needed to go to an experienced home. She was the last female to be placed and somehow my DH convinced the breeder we could handle her. She was too much for me, so I had to find ways to successfully manage her. I'm still working on it! I'm not sure other owners would want to deal with her ways, she would have been returned to the breeder, re-homed or possibly put down due to her fear aggression.
Not sure why you have the snarky comments...what'd I ever do to you??


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## holland

You didn't do anything to me-I get tired of seeing people put up websites and reading other people pulling them apart-I never even looked at the website. It is easy to pull things apart-not sure why I even read these web boards.


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## onyx'girl

Holland, I didn't "pull the website apart" at all...I said nothing derogatory about the breeder.


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## vat

Onyx is correct, it was not her that said anything derogatory. It was another member that claimed them as a puppy mill because of the order your pup. But it seems that person did not click that link to see that you can not order a pup online it only took you to more information. Besides, when you have a pup shipped to you are you not ordering it? It is all on how you look at it.

Maybe we need another thread on how people view breeder websites? I know I am guilty of the same. I searched for years and I can say that some websites turned me off because all they did was spout to much about titles and police work and Sch etc. To me it scared me away thinking I would get a dog that was mean but I am sure that was not the case. And I do not really care if I see the pedigree online, I can see it when I get there. JMO.


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## GSDElsa

Actually, the ordering part is only one of many reasons that I formed the opinion that I did...and didn't even express them all on this thread! From 39 dogs that do nothing to not honoring guarantees if you don't follow their worming, vaccination, and heartworm plans or getting their permission to feed a different food.

This isn't how I "viewed" the website. They specifically state that you need to get their permission to change your dogs food. I think that is completely bizarre.. I think it's great that you have had a positive experience with your guarantee, but they make it fairly clear that they can weasel out of their guarantee with something as simple as you not getting their permission to change your dog's food. Hey, if people are OK with that no one is forcing you to go elsewhere. But there are plenty of good breeders out there that do not have requirements on what you feed your dog.
*VERY IMPORTANT!!!*​*WE REQUIRE YOU TO CLEAR ANY PROPOSED CHANGE
TO YOUR PUP’S DIET WITH US FIRST.*​* NOT DOING SO WILL AFFECT OUR GUARANTEE!*​


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## wolfstraum

Haven't seen the website yet - just reading the discussions and want to make some comments based on the remarks and opinions.....

Many of the more active posters on here are fans of the European GSD and the criteria, based on the GERMAN rules (SV), for breeding - a method of quality control as it were.....

Seeing a kennel with 39 (as posted) breeding dogs - active????? - or history.....does raise some red flags - especially if the kennel is not "known" in competition circles - and the term "puppy mill" is loosely used to describe large volume producing kennels who are not active in shows or dogsport. I prefer the term "commercial" operation - whether they follow SV standards or not - anyone raising 5-15 litters a year is operating a commercial business - I reserve "puppy mill" for a commercial concern whose dogs are not well cared for, or are bred without any concern for their future.

Also - In MY OPINION - a concerned and caring breeder wants their pups to be sucessful in their new homes....and thus the pups should be matched as well as can be done to the new owners - taking deposits and letting people pick their pups is very very very old school - as breeders know more about their dogs and the potential of their dogs, they want the pups they sell to be the best fit for the new home -whether it be as a companion or a dog who will be trained in a national competition level club! 

We all base our opinions on what someone presents to us. In the case of a website - if it is on there - then it is fair game to take it at face value!!!! 

And this is a pet peeve of mine - opinions about a kennel, a litter, a breeder - should be judged on the experience and knowledge base of the person giving the reference!!! People who have never met, seen, talked to a breeder are always giving references based on the website - while this seems contradictory - it is not! when a website shows no credentials on breeding stock, when there are 10 litters listed - you can draw certain conclusions....but to say XXX is a great breeder because their dogs are gorgeous, or they win xxxx - is almost as flawed....over the years, I have seen discussions and comments pushing people towards certain breeders who have big websites and show records on here all the time when they have not talked to the breeder, have not seen any dog from the kennel, do not look further or deeper into the practices of the kennel (for example -and theoretical as to numbers! - Kennel BZ - bred 3 big winners - but from 20 litters in the one year span that the winners were born - and 25 dogs from 4 mo to 2 years stuck in kennel runs to "grow out" that have no socialization, no training and are lucky to get food thrown into them 2x a day)

The buyer needs to do alot of research, look at things and make comparisons.....!!!! Conclusions are often far different after a "pro and con" list....

As far as paying $1500 for a puppy???? To me - prices should be credential driven! A puppy from a Champion/VA/WUSV dog should be priced more than a puppy from 2-3-6 generations of no credentials - and for $1500 you should be able to find a puppy from a breeder whose dogs have credentials!! Credentials show that the dog has qualities of temperament and character (and appearance) that the Breed Standard describes.

Lee


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## JPrice

GSDElsa said:


> Actually, the ordering part is only one of many reasons that I formed the opinion that I did...and didn't even express them all on this thread! From 39 dogs that do nothing to not honoring guarantees if you don't follow their worming, vaccination, and heartworm plans or getting their permission to feed a different food.
> 
> This isn't how I "viewed" the website. They specifically state that you need to get their permission to change your dogs food. I think that is completely bizarre.. I think it's great that you have had a positive experience with your guarantee, but they make it fairly clear that they can weasel out of their guarantee with something as simple as you not getting their permission to change your dog's food. Hey, if people are OK with that no one is forcing you to go elsewhere. But there are plenty of good breeders out there that do not have requirements on what you feed your dog.
> *VERY IMPORTANT!!!*
> *WE REQUIRE YOU TO CLEAR ANY PROPOSED CHANGE
> TO YOUR PUP’S DIET WITH US FIRST.*
> *NOT DOING SO WILL AFFECT OUR GUARANTEE!*​




I mean it is rough to say that the guarantee can be stripped away when you don't follow the breeder's requirements for feeding the puppy, but that being said you could feed your dog any crappy old dog food or anything for that matter that is unhealthy to the dog. I think she is only doing this so that she know's what is getting ingested into the dog is healthy. I mean think about how many people feed their dog nasty bs that makes them sick, and they in turn try to twist it and blame it on the breeder. I dunno I view this more as a safety precaution against bad handlers, than taking it against Shewana.


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## onyx'girl

Many times breeders are distributors of what they require to feed in their contracts. 

One more reason for the breeder to really screen potential buyers so they can weed out the ones that possibly would put their dogs health at risk by feeding a nasty diet.


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## GSDElsa

JPrice said:


> I mean it is rough to say that the guarantee can be stripped away when you don't follow the breeder's requirements for feeding the puppy, but that being said you could feed your dog any crappy old dog food or anything for that matter that is unhealthy to the dog. I think she is only doing this so that she know's what is getting ingested into the dog is healthy. I mean think about how many people feed their dog nasty bs that makes them sick, and they in turn try to twist it and blame it on the breeder. I dunno I view this more as a safety precaution against bad handlers, than taking it against Shewana.


Well, the only foods they recommend is Fromm (good food) and Eukaneuba (really crappy food). Take it as you will, but I would be hard pressed to call Eukanuba much more than overpriced junk. Maybe not a bad as Ol' Roy, but hardly a good food. So I'm not really buying that argument.

If you carefully screen your buyers there is no reason to have to void a guarantee because of the worry of feeding them bad food.


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## vat

wolfstraum said:


> Haven't seen the website yet - just reading the discussions and want to make some comments based on the remarks and opinions.....
> 
> Many of the more active posters on here are fans of the European GSD and the criteria, based on the GERMAN rules (SV), for breeding - a method of quality control as it were.....
> 
> Seeing a kennel with 39 (as posted) breeding dogs - active????? - or history.....does raise some red flags - especially if the kennel is not "known" in competition circles - and the term "puppy mill" is loosely used to describe large volume producing kennels who are not active in shows or dogsport. I prefer the term "commercial" operation - whether they follow SV standards or not - anyone raising 5-15 litters a year is operating a commercial business - I reserve "puppy mill" for a commercial concern whose dogs are not well cared for, or are bred without any concern for their future.
> 
> Also - In MY OPINION - a concerned and caring breeder wants their pups to be sucessful in their new homes....and thus the pups should be matched as well as can be done to the new owners - taking deposits and letting people pick their pups is very very very old school - as breeders know more about their dogs and the potential of their dogs, they want the pups they sell to be the best fit for the new home -whether it be as a companion or a dog who will be trained in a national competition level club!
> 
> We all base our opinions on what someone presents to us. In the case of a website - if it is on there - then it is fair game to take it at face value!!!!
> 
> And this is a pet peeve of mine - opinions about a kennel, a litter, a breeder - should be judged on the experience and knowledge base of the person giving the reference!!! People who have never met, seen, talked to a breeder are always giving references based on the website - while this seems contradictory - it is not! when a website shows no credentials on breeding stock, when there are 10 litters listed - you can draw certain conclusions....but to say XXX is a great breeder because their dogs are gorgeous, or they win xxxx - is almost as flawed....over the years, I have seen discussions and comments pushing people towards certain breeders who have big websites and show records on here all the time when they have not talked to the breeder, have not seen any dog from the kennel, do not look further or deeper into the practices of the kennel (for example -and theoretical as to numbers! - Kennel BZ - bred 3 big winners - but from 20 litters in the one year span that the winners were born - and 25 dogs from 4 mo to 2 years stuck in kennel runs to "grow out" that have no socialization, no training and are lucky to get food thrown into them 2x a day)
> 
> The buyer needs to do alot of research, look at things and make comparisons.....!!!! Conclusions are often far different after a "pro and con" list....
> 
> As far as paying $1500 for a puppy???? To me - prices should be credential driven! A puppy from a Champion/VA/WUSV dog should be priced more than a puppy from 2-3-6 generations of no credentials - and for $1500 you should be able to find a puppy from a breeder whose dogs have credentials!! Credentials show that the dog has qualities of temperament and character (and appearance) that the Breed Standard describes.
> 
> Lee


I have the same pet peeve as you. Probably why this has been a sore spot for me. Yes you need to talk to people who have the dog, talk with the breeder and visit the breeder before forming an opinion. I understand that some people want to see a pedigree online but most of us do not care. I can ask when I get there. Maybe some people just do not know how to design a website and others do. Some breeders rely on word of mouth more than anything else.

Does my dog have a pedigree online? No. Would his pedigree impress most people on this group? Probably not but I am not looking to do competition. There are many good breeders out there that are not known in the Sch but that does not mean they are bad breeders. Some people just need to remember that not all GSD owners are looking to compete and get titles but for some when they recommend a breeder or discredit one that is all they are looking at or so that is how many come off. There is a breeder as I said before in the burbs here that trains her own police dogs. However she makes her buyers promise to not to Sch with her dogs. Does that make her dogs bad? No.

Just for the record, my dogs pedigree does hold many SCH 3 titles along with some 2 & a few 1. My trainer who also trains Sch and competes has given huge compliments on my dog and made comment on how many garbage (his words not mine) GSD he see's now days. He has been very impressed with Max and the breeder. To me all that says more than a website.

I do not think anyone should buy a dog based on a website (JMO). I want to see the kennel, meet the breeder and most important meet the dogs. Yet there are people out there that have dogs shipped from over sea never meet the breeder or parents. Simply go by pedigrees and some get great dogs but I have known others who get garbage or as my hubby calls them a dog in GSD clothes only.

Despite some difference of opinions (and how boring it would be with out them) I think this has been a great post. I hope it helps others when looking for a dog.


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## GSDElsa

vat said:


> There is a breeder as I said before in the burbs here that trains her own police dogs. However she makes her buyers promise to not to Sch with her dogs. Does that make her dogs bad? No.


That is horribly bizarre a well and I'd probably say the same type of negative things about this breeder as well. A GSD breeder who won't let their dogs compete in SchH? 

What exactly is the purpose of that policy?


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## Cassidy's Mom

Just because a website shouldn't be enough to convince anyone to buy from a particular breeder (which I agree with), that doesn't mean that a website shouldn't DISCOURAGE anyone from buying from a particular breeder. It doesn't have to be fancy, but what a breeder chooses to put (or not put) on their website tells you a lot about what is important to them, and/or what they think should be important to a buyer. So the lack of pedigree information on a breeder's website would suggest to me that they're marketing mostly to people who won't know or care about the pedigrees of the dogs being bred, or that the pedigrees aren't particularly noteworthy. 

That may be an incorrect assumption on my part, but why NOT put pedigree information on the website?


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## wolfstraum

vat said:


> I have the same pet peeve as you. Probably why this has been a sore spot for me. Yes you need to talk to people who have the dog, talk with the breeder and visit the breeder before forming an opinion. I understand that some people want to see a pedigree online but most of us do not care. I can ask when I get there. Maybe some people just do not know how to design a website and others do. Some breeders rely on word of mouth more than anything else.
> 
> Does my dog have a pedigree online? No. Would his pedigree impress most people on this group? Probably not but I am not looking to do competition. There are many good breeders out there that are not known in the Sch but that does not mean they are bad breeders. Some people just need to remember that not all GSD owners are looking to compete and get titles but for some when they recommend a breeder or discredit one that is all they are looking at or so that is how many come off. There is a breeder as I said before in the burbs here that trains her own police dogs. However she makes her buyers promise to not to Sch with her dogs. Does that make her dogs bad? No.
> 
> Just for the record, my dogs pedigree does hold many SCH 3 titles along with some 2 & a few 1. My trainer who also trains Sch and competes has given huge compliments on my dog and made comment on how many garbage (his words not mine) GSD he see's now days. He has been very impressed with Max and the breeder. To me all that says more than a website.
> 
> I do not think anyone should buy a dog based on a website (JMO). I want to see the kennel, meet the breeder and most important meet the dogs. Yet there are people out there that have dogs shipped from over sea never meet the breeder or parents. Simply go by pedigrees and some get great dogs but I have known others who get garbage or as my hubby calls them a dog in GSD clothes only.
> 
> Despite some difference of opinions (and how boring it would be with out them) I think this has been a great post. I hope it helps others when looking for a dog.



The written word is a wonderful thing - being neutral and somewhat ambiguous, does not mean that this is my intent. While following the SV system strictly has pushed me to the limit of my resources in some ways, and I regret not breeding for certain litters prior to titles, I thoroughly believe that with allowances for sport resources, the SV system is still the best way to follow the breed standard out there. 

Having now looked at this website - and found that I agree with everything critical posted about it. Yes - the website allows you to make judgements about a breeders philosophy and goals. If you know anything about the breed - the standard, the history, and believe in keeping the integrity of the breed - you CAN made a judgment about the general state of a breeding kennel. You can frame an opinion about their goals, their depth of knowledge, their commitment to the breed itself by the information offered and the pedigrees through generations of what breed. The GSD HAS a standard - it is a working dog!!! The dogs were not intended to be companion dogs with no ability to do anything but lie on the floor in front of the fireplace and demonstrations of working abilities in different venues are what ensures the continuation of those aspects of character that defines the breed as a GSD. 

First off - I have seen many websites very similar to this one .....and IMO they are all the same. Commercial kennels with technically nice sites wtih dogs to appeal to every potential pet owners likes the appearance of the GSD. 

This kennel is a large business venture. They state they are a "PROFESSIONAL" kennel. No argument about it. No pretensions about accomplishments. Have puppies available at all times. Have white puppies. OFA's site shows 7 pages of dogs with their kennel name, ASL style names, no way to suss out bloodlines. Photos of dogs with " " call names noted. No pedigrees - but anyone with a practiced eye can see dogs who are ASL type, a working type sable, a male with super poor pigment - maybe a WGSL or two....dogs who do not meet the breed standard for color at a minimum being used for breeding. These are observations of fact as stated on the website. 

When the most basic fundamentals of the standard are ignored, what does that indicate about the finer points of character and temperament??? Any kennel which aspires to breed for only the pet market is not a breeder who respects the integrity of the standard. Mixing types, making sure every aspect that a potential buyer may want is met - the CH, the Schutzhund title in 3rd or 4th generation, the color (note the comments about those highly desireable "rare" !!! colors - ie - incorrect or poor pigment like cream or silver) 

To mass produce puppies destined for pet homes who have no experience in training, no interest in training and no intention of doing anything but occasionally walking the dog around the block, this type of website promises a dog with the appearance of the GSD - but totally ignores the functional aspect of the breed. The watered down GSD is the pet of choice for many, and this type of producer makes the appropriately lacking character for the average family home who does not care for anything but looks....and those oh so important "pure breed AKC registrations". The ones that want the look, but not the character or drive needed to do a job. They want the Volkswagon with the fiberglass sports car body mounted on top. IMO that attitude is the downfall of our breed - there is no care to preserve the character intrinsic to the core of the breed. And these type of breeding practices are the most common, the majority in production of litters in this breed....the breeder who cares about the integrity of the breed, by caring to perserve the ability and character by which the breed is defined by the GERMAN standard, is a very small minority.

Going back to the idea of references here - this is an observation of the website - pet owners generally are happy with their dogs and therefore their breeders....the more experience and knowledge you gain about the breed, the more you can tell from less information. Defending or recommending a business (breeder) you dealt with where you were well treated and are pleased with your product (dog) does not make that business one who is truly producing an excellent product (dog as per the standard). 

Lee



This makes me very sad.


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## vat

Well sorry everyone feels my dog is crap! But for those that have actually met him in the training and Sch world they feel otherwise. Maybe that was not the intent but that is how many people on this forum have made me feel.


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## onyx'girl

Valerie, don't take it personally...please! 
What Lee posted above is so true, and it doesn't make your dog any less of a companion. 
Pedigree's do matter, it is the make-up of the dog! 
I'd rather a breeder put their lines on their site up front...it usually saves needless inquiries that I'm sure breeders don't have time to constantly deal with.

I don't even have one bit of Onyx's pedigree though I know she is American/ East German but how much of anything I have no clue....she is still worthy in my eyes, but only for a companion. Can't do any sportwork with her.
Her breeder did some things right, some wrong. The wrong ones were not having health tests or paperwork in her hands before she bred. The right ones were how she raised her pups, provided a first rights in the contract.
I didn't choose this breeder, Onyx was a "surprise" to the family from my husband. I couldn't refuse him that gift, though I was not happy about his choice of a "breeder". Could have turned out much worse though, health-wise.


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## robinhuerta

Val.....no one is saying that your dog is anything but the great dog you love & know him to be. Be proud of your dog....he is *your* dog.
* It is a breeders job to make sure that they do their best, at keeping this breed *totally* *functional*. Capable of doing the tasks and venues that were created for this breed.
And that does mean...making them perform (in one way or another) in these tasks.
Schutzhund, Herding, SAR, Certified Service Dogs (_not just therapy dogs_), Police K9s..etc..
Not all breeders compete in (many) of the venues...that's ok....but the dogs they produce should be capable. It's very easy to just sit back and tell the world...."My dogs are great and we are professionals"...while they have done nothing to "support" their claims. Breeding one's dogs (having no other goals in place)... solely for the pet market is not "professional".
I refer to breeders of all bloodlines.
JMO


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## wolfstraum

vat said:


> Well sorry everyone feels my dog is crap! But for those that have actually met him in the training and Sch world they feel otherwise. Maybe that was not the intent but that is how many people on this forum have made me feel.


Nothing was said specifically about your dog! All my comments are generalizations about breeding for pet homes and without regard to the standard......obviously there are some working line dogs mixed in to the population at this kennel...and your dog's genetics have come through the generations with some ability - I had a 6x Sch3 dog who had a sire that some board members did not like - and every time I mention her all I get is a resounding reaction telling me what crap her sire produced! Not allusions, not generalizations....but I knew she was a very very good dog and a good producer. I did not - nor did anyone else - say that YOUR dog was a piece of crap. Some of the top competing animals - dogs and horses - come from humble backgrounds - genetics come through (good and bad) from 8, 10 generations back no matter what you hear that they don't. All the criticisms and less than stellar reviews are based on a big picture - not on your dog specifically!

If you stay in the sport, you will have to get used to the intense analysis of all things GSD!

Lee


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## JPrice

So my question now for you Wolfstraum...is it bad for me to purchase a GSD with a fantastic pedigree, but not work it to it's maximum potential like Schutzhund or show her in shows? I'm all about supporting a breeder who is trying to keep the breed as strong and true as possible, but I don't want to be frowned down upon for owning a dog but not being true to it in that nature. I live in Chicago and I have experience training my dogs of the past, but I have never owned a GSD. She would be walked constantly throughout the day and we would play with her in the park right next door all of the time. I mean I don't own a car, so I walk everywhere and she would be right by my side. I also can't wait to be able to teach her as many tricks as possible, but like I said I don't plan on doing anything in the sport. What do you think?


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## GSDElsa

No, because most litters will produce a variety of dogs. Not every dog in the litter is going to be one that will be a top SchH competitor. There will be some, but there will also be some puppies that will be best suited for "active companion" or agility homes.

A good breeder will be honest and forthright with you about the dogs in the litter. If every one is a little bitey monster that they think need to be in serious working homes, then they should be telling you that this litter isn't for you.


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## wolfstraum

JPrice said:


> So my question now for you Wolfstraum...is it bad for me to purchase a GSD with a fantastic pedigree, but not work it to it's maximum potential like Schutzhund or show her in shows? I'm all about supporting a breeder who is trying to keep the breed as strong and true as possible, but I don't want to be frowned down upon for owning a dog but not being true to it in that nature. I live in Chicago and I have experience training my dogs of the past, but I have never owned a GSD. She would be walked constantly throughout the day and we would play with her in the park right next door all of the time. I mean I don't own a car, so I walk everywhere and she would be right by my side. I also can't wait to be able to teach her as many tricks as possible, but like I said I don't plan on doing anything in the sport. What do you think?


There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! My pups are ALL in companion homes - some pups that are absolutely top notch working quality will never be titled - even by people who intended - no promised!!! - to work them....I don't love that - but I am extremely happy that the dog is loved, well cared for and in an absolutely wonderful home....each litter so far has a pup who is titled (A TO h) or if too young yet (I), will be...some have 2 titled - but my goal is to have the pups in good homes, and some competition homes are not as good a home because they buy and sell dogs, kennel them all the time etc as a home where the dog is a loved family member. I usually keep back a pup to start and when it is 6-10 months, the right working home will come along...

Lee


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## jaggirl47

JPrice said:


> So my question now for you Wolfstraum...is it bad for me to purchase a GSD with a fantastic pedigree, but not work it to it's maximum potential like Schutzhund or show her in shows? I'm all about supporting a breeder who is trying to keep the breed as strong and true as possible, but I don't want to be frowned down upon for owning a dog but not being true to it in that nature. I live in Chicago and I have experience training my dogs of the past, but I have never owned a GSD. She would be walked constantly throughout the day and we would play with her in the park right next door all of the time. I mean I don't own a car, so I walk everywhere and she would be right by my side. I also can't wait to be able to teach her as many tricks as possible, but like I said I don't plan on doing anything in the sport. What do you think?


 
My pup I am training for Schutzhund is first and foremost a family pet. I wanted her for the sport though and my breeder knew that. That's why he matched her up with me. She goes out on the field and works then comes home and plays with my kids.
Out of the litter of 6, 3 are being trained for sport. One is still with the breeder to be trained, 1 with me and working, 1 in Germany for training and titles. The other 3 are strictly companions. They get lots of playtime but they have less drive.
Just be open and honest with the breeder. Tell them what you want and they will be better able to give you your perfect match.


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## Lucy Dog

JPrice said:


> So my question now for you Wolfstraum...is it bad for me to purchase a GSD with a fantastic pedigree, but not work it to it's maximum potential like Schutzhund or show her in shows? I'm all about supporting a breeder who is trying to keep the breed as strong and true as possible, but I don't want to be frowned down upon for owning a dog but not being true to it in that nature. I live in Chicago and I have experience training my dogs of the past, but I have never owned a GSD. She would be walked constantly throughout the day and we would play with her in the park right next door all of the time. I mean I don't own a car, so I walk everywhere and she would be right by my side. I also can't wait to be able to teach her as many tricks as possible, but like I said I don't plan on doing anything in the sport. What do you think?


Great question :thumbup:. This probably would a apply to a lot of people here who want to support a good breeding program, but not sure about getting into sports. I'm interested to see if some of the breeders here respond to this and what they think.

This should be made into it's own thread.


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## jaggirl47

wolfstraum said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with that! My pups are ALL in companion homes - some pups that are absolutely top notch working quality will never be titled - even by people who intended - no promised!!! - to work them....I don't love that - but I am extremely happy that the dog is loved, well cared for and in an absolutely wonderful home....each litter so far has a pup who is titled (A TO h) or if too young yet (I), will be...some have 2 titled - but my goal is to have the pups in good homes, and some competition homes are not as good a home because they buy and sell dogs, kennel them all the time etc as a home where the dog is a loved family member. I usually keep back a pup to start and when it is 6-10 months, the right working home will come along...
> 
> Lee


 
This breeder did.


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## CharlieandMaya

I'm not as breed savvy as a lot of the members here, but the one thing that would deter me from the breeder, is that OFA is not listed for each individual dogs 'profile' of which there seems to be none. And when you DO find her dogs OFA's, one of her females is listed as 'severe'. Here is the link: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I also fully believe in proving a GSD is a 'Truly Special GSD' as they say, and it makes me wonder what any of their puppies are capable of, as the breed is supposed to be a very versatile one, they have no titles of proof. Do they do anything with their dogs other than breed them? That said, I have NO personal experience with this breeder and end my opinions there.


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## vat

CharlieandMaya said:


> I'm not as breed savvy as a lot of the members here, but the one thing that would deter me from the breeder, is that OFA is not listed for each individual dogs 'profile' of which there seems to be none. And when you DO find her dogs OFA's, one of her females is listed as 'severe'. Here is the link: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> I also fully believe in proving a GSD is a 'Truly Special GSD' as they say, and it makes me wonder what any of their puppies are capable of, as the breed is supposed to be a very versatile one, they have no titles of proof. Do they do anything with their dogs other than breed them? That said, I have NO personal experience with this breeder and end my opinions there.


Yes they have several Champions in the show ring and there are dogs going out for agility but that is not important. People here have formed an opinion of someone they have never dealt with. Also the dog with the sever hips I do not believe is breeding. My dogs family has excellent hips. Does every breeder on here have ALL their dogs with excellent hips? Have you never had a sick dog or one die? It happens to every breeder, mother nature has its own agenda at times.

It seems every time someone comes on here to ask about getting a GSD for a pet they are sent off to these breeders with all these Sch titles. I am just saying there are plenty of good dogs out there. I think what is important has already been said is the number of people happy with their dog from the breeder.


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## arycrest

JPrice said:


> I mean it is rough to say that the guarantee can be stripped away when you don't follow the breeder's requirements for feeding the puppy, but that being said you could feed your dog any crappy old dog food or anything for that matter that is unhealthy to the dog. I think she is only doing this so that she know's what is getting ingested into the dog is healthy. I mean think about how many people feed their dog nasty bs that makes them sick, and they in turn try to twist it and blame it on the breeder. I dunno I view this more as a safety precaution against bad handlers, than taking it against Shewana.


I was defrauded by Bruiser's breeder, she was dishonesty/liar and I don't think much of her. With that said, one of her requirements in her "guarantee" was FEED IAMS OR THE "GUARANTEE" IS REVOKED. She was agahst that I switched him from wonderful Iams to yucky Innova.


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## Samba

A dog stands on its own. It is important not to equate a breeding system or kennel situation with an individual dog. I have had dogs from places where there could be criticism of the methods...OFA, etc. It didn't mean too much About the dog itself. The dog was dependent on genetics of the two mated parents.

There is room for consideration of what type of dog breeding approach a person wants to support. If a person has become educated to a degree beyond novice ( and we all started at novice unless well mentored from the beginning), then the buyer may learn to consider the many aspects of breeding. Then they can decide if a breeder has the type of dog for them and also has practices that they want to support with their dog buying dollar.

That being said, the internet is a hard way to go in learning about a breeder. Websites don't tell me too much. People being happy with a dog from a particular place doesn't help much either. I have known many people happy with their dog, but its one I wouldn't find a match for me.

I would say do the best that you can with what you know. Asking questions is great. Getting to know a breeder beyond a website is important. 

I have had great dogs from rescue. I don't know the breeding situation they came from so need to make tgat judgement. When I am looking for a dog who has a particular set of characteristics and working ability, I go to a breeder who has consistently produced that type of dog.If I want a good all round dog, I rescue.

I have a resvued 16 year old BC. Excellent pet, good health, fun obedience dog who beat 70 dogs in one trial with a first place. Many of those dogs obedience champions and well bred. The GSD female I have now is a rescue. Good health, athleticism, solid happy temperament and super for obedience competition for me. The decision of what breeder was not a factor and I could get the type of dog I wanted!


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## JakodaCD OA

" I would say do the best that you can with what you know. Asking questions is great. Getting to know a breeder beyond a website is important." 


I think the above says it all. 

Websites are a great tool, however, someone may go by a website and think "WOW GREAT DOGS! GREAT BREEDING PROGRAM",,when in truth it's hype..look at another website and while it doesn't impress and is lacking,,may be otherwise in person.

I do agree tho, if your (general your) going to have a website show casing your dogs,as much info as possible should be put out there..

I do NOT agree with a warranty that says "if you dont feed xxx food, your warranty is null and void"..

My suggestion as others, get references, talk to the breeders VET, go visit the kennel, the dogs, and make your decision from there.


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## wolfstraum

vat said:


> Yes they have several Champions in the show ring and there are dogs going out for agility but that is not important. People here have formed an opinion of someone they have never dealt with. Also the dog with the sever hips I do not believe is breeding. My dogs family has excellent hips. Does every breeder on here have ALL their dogs with excellent hips? Have you never had a sick dog or one die? It happens to every breeder, mother nature has its own agenda at times.
> 
> It seems every time someone comes on here to ask about getting a GSD for a pet they are sent off to these breeders with all these Sch titles. I am just saying there are plenty of good dogs out there. I think what is important has already been said is the number of people happy with their dog from the breeder.



Ok - so they have mostly ASL - you say your dog has a pedigree full of Schutzhund titles - so it is NOT a product of their long term main breeding program.

I have produced dogs with agility titles (Demons has so many I have no clue what they all are!!!), AKC obedience, rally titles, Flyball!!! titles - have a top notch Canadian who is a professional trainer doing CKC Ob, Agility and Flyball waiting for a pup now...also SAR titles, a serious LE border patrol dog (has found lots of drugs but they do not publicize their finds), Schutzhund titles (counting them out - over 50 titles in 8 litters here and in Europe from my females) and RH titles - but my website is not slick glossy or up to date! (new computer and canNOT find my software!)...my owners run the gamut from National winner/WUSV competitors to FBI agents to stay at home moms who treat their dog like their child. 

When people refer potential buyers to breeders doing schutzhund - they are referring buyers to people who *FOLLOW THE GERMAN STANDARD* - not just to people who breed schutzhund dogs!!! 

If you would take the fact that you own a dog from this particular website out of the equation, and read all the posts - there is nothing PERSONAL about the breeder on these comments - you say she is a lovely person and warm and caring. No one disputes that. What is being analyzed and discussed is her business as *presented by her website - which is how she chooses to present what she sells. *That information is public and open for opinions and discussion. Producing a pet dog is NOT the design that the GSD was developed to fill....yes, they are highly desirable to many people who like their looks - and those people want a watered down dog who looks like a GSD - and there are many many people who breed AKC registered dogs who fill that market...so the more knowlegeable people on the forum will critique breeders against the standard. So many of the forum members have "been there, done that" starting off with a pet from a breeder whose goal is merely to sell puppies - a business, a "professional" - and as they find training enjoyable, grow in experience and knowledge and understanding of the character of the breed. I had GSDs as kid, then horses, and when I got my first GSD as an adult, got a BYB puppy mill silver dog off a semi local"breeder" out of the paper - who ironically had some titled imported working line dogs as well - but sold lots more black and silver pets....*everyone* who met that dog loved her, wanted a puppy from her - but as I wanted an obedient dog, did some classes, did AKC obedience titles, did some schutzhund training, learning all the while....and objectively, even tho I loved Kelsey, realized what I had and moved on to a dog who was bred to the criteria that the standard of the breed describes. Even with 2 Schutzhund titled females, people who wanted pets would want Kelsey puppies - oversized 90 pound, silver sable, washed out, high ball drive, sweet tempered Kelsey who had serious immune deficiency problems and died at 7.5....I loved Kelsey. Do I refer people to her breeder? NO - would I refer people to her? NO Would I buy another puppy from her? NO Was she a good pet? YES But she was not bred by someone who respected and attempted to breed to the standard, rather by a person who bred to sell large numbers of puppies as pets as a business.

Again - no one is knocking your dog or you personally. You are refusing to be objective and looking at the facts and the rationale stated here by so many people. 


People come here wanting knowledge about the GSD and that knowledge goes beyond happy pet owning.

Lee


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## JPrice

Yeah, I'd just like to say thank you to every one. Without these facts and opinions I would have thought I was making the right decision. This website has really helped out in this process and I'm glad I didn't jump the gun and throw a deposit down. I now feel like I know exactly what breeder I will choose, and will probably give them a call today.


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## holland

LOL...ah the internet there's one born every minute


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## vat

I do not think I am refusing to be objective. Yes I agree the website is not the best and may not tell the correct story. And yes if you are looking to do Sch would I recommend this breeder, probably not. What I have tried to do and maybe not very well is defend what I know. When some say there are no titles when I know that to be not true I tried to state facts I know.

I do not disagree that everyone is looking for something different and this breeder may not be good for some but may be for others. The only thing I ask people to do is try not to judge everything off a website (someone commented on the dogs colors being off, see the dog in person then tell me that. Not saying it is not true but it is a picture for god sakes!), I know its hard I have done it myself. The most important thing is to meet the breeder and the dogs then decide if that is right for you.

I know what all of you are trying to say, and I am really not trying to be difficult but what I want people to see is it comes off to others that if a breeder does not do Sch with their dogs then those dogs are no good (not only on this post). I know that is not what everyone really means but to the newbie that is how it looks. Please just take that into consideration.


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## holland

If you thought my post was agreeing with everyone else it wasn't


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## JPrice

Holland...you are a ** BE NICE. Comment removed by ADMIN**. Why are you here? You put forth no input besides your unnecessary comments, and I don't think any one wants to hear it. To correct you I'm not new to the internet at all. I'm a graphic designer / web designer and probably know twice as much as you would ever know...maybe new to the GSD breed, but no you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## holland

What exactly is a *******?? Just curious


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## holland

I gotta go-other things to do -


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## crackem

You can get a good dog from anywhere. That's just how it is. All you can do is play the odds, and for my money i go to those I think are doing it "right".

Now here's my experience with shewanna shepherds, named so because "she wants a shepherd".

I had never heard of them, and moved to an area in southern WI. Ended up meeting a couple and got to be good friends with them. They met my dogs and were totally amazed at how they were, and we got talking.

** negative comments must be sent in a PM. Removed by Admin**

So these two things really stuck out to me and I was rather new to the area and found it funny and odd at the same time. So I asked a guy I had been training in schutzhund with if he had heard of that kennel. and he laughed and told me his story. *** see above**

Now these were 3 totally unrelated incidents that all happend within about 2 months of me moving to the area and all within probably 2 weeks of each other. Knowing how unrelated these people are, one an old man just walking his dog, another a couple that work on a golf course and had no dogs, but did have one of theirs, and another who actively trains dogs. 

Take it for what it's worth.


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## lhczth

Just a reminder that any specific negative comments about or experiences with this breeder must be made in private (PM). 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa

*****


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## Whiteshepherds

CharlieandMaya said:


> I'm not as breed savvy as a lot of the members here, but the one thing that would deter me from the breeder, is that OFA is not listed for each individual dogs 'profile' of which there seems to be none. And when you DO find her dogs OFA's, *one of her females is listed as 'severe'.* Here is the link: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


Using this post as a springboard for an opinion. It's not directed at this poster and it's not a yay or nay for the breeder in question. 

As it pertains to OFA ratings, I think people need to be careful about drawing conclusions when they have just a small snapshot of any bloodline. 
OFA is a great tool but one rating for one dog is not an indication of what a bloodline produces. It might interest people to know that this bloodline has also produced excellent hip ratings, although that wasn't mentioned. (or I didn't see it mentioned) Now what?

I can't find any indication that the dog in question was bred. If that's the case the breeder did exactly what you expect a good breeder to do. Test the dog before breeding and don't breed dogs with bad hips. There is no crime in having this dog with bad hips listed on the OFA site, actually it's a plus. Hiding flaws in a line is very simple and in my eyes, telling the world you had a breeding that produced a dog with bad hips is 100 times better than hiding it. 

If you believe the way to weed out bad breeders is by sharing information about those breeders, *one simple solution is for every person to have their registered dogs x-rayed and the results sent to OFA,* whether you plan to breed the dogs or not. This would give other dog buyers an honest an unbiased look into what the line was producing, at least as far as HD and other hip problems are concerned. What you see now is only a small sampling of most lines.

So, how many people on the forum with registered dogs have them OFA'd even if you never plan to breed?


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## crackem

How about this. If somebody is asking for opinions, you close the thread immediately after they post, then EVERYTHING can be sent via PM and that's it. 

why let people post a few "positive" stories if people can't give their "negative" ?? Experiences are subjective. If somebody is asking for them, let them get them and decide for themselves.


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## vat

crackem said:


> How about this. If somebody is asking for opinions, you close the thread immediately after they post, then EVERYTHING can be sent via PM and that's it.
> 
> why let people post a few "positive" stories if people can't give their "negative" ?? Experiences are subjective. If somebody is asking for them, let them get them and decide for themselves.


It is not personal, it is to protect the forum from possible lawsuits.

Whiteshepherds I am glad that you took the time to dig just a bit instead of taking one little piece and running with it.


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## Lucy Dog

crackem said:


> How about this. If somebody is asking for opinions, you close the thread immediately after they post, then EVERYTHING can be sent via PM and that's it.
> 
> why let people post a few "positive" stories if people can't give their "negative" ?? Experiences are subjective. If somebody is asking for them, let them get them and decide for themselves.


I think it's just to protect this board from any type of slander lawsuits if it got to that point. 

A person can come on here and ask about joe schmoes breeding program and someone can say things that are completely untrue for whatever reason. Then a year later, someone googles that breeders name and they come back here and read whatever was written, true or not. Stuff like that, especially if not true, can really hurt the breeders reputation. In the world of google searches, nothing is private these days. 

This is the reason why everything negative is done through private messages. Private messages are just that... private.

There are other boards that don't have these kind of rules though and everything is fair game... positive or negative.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Lucy Dog said:


> I think it's just to protect this board from any type of slander lawsuits if it got to that point.
> 
> A person can come on here and ask about joe schmoes breeding program and someone can say things that are completely untrue for whatever reason. Then a year later, someone googles that breeders name and they come back here and read whatever was written, true or not. Stuff like that, especially if not true, can really hurt the breeders reputation. In the world of google searches, nothing is private these days.
> 
> This is the reason why everything negative is done through private messages. Private messages are just that... private.
> 
> There are other boards that don't have these kind of rules though and everything is fair game... positive or negative.


Well said and exactly the main reason we made the rule banning posting negatives on the main board.

PLUS, we used to also have too many of the attacks be based of personal issues and experiences that can't be verified (she said vs. she said) and threads would end up just vicious mud slinging fests and the original questions lost entirely.


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## crackem

web hosts and web site managers are not held liable for comments made by other people to the board. So if that is what they are worried about, they need not be. 

But I don't see how it is any better to allow any conversation at all about breeders. Why just allow "positive"? Is it better for someone, posing as a customer to come and say all sorts of wonderful things about their "breeder" when none of it is true, so it can be left for later and then you can come along and google and see nothing but positive stuff?

I know it's not my board and I don['t make the rules. but I think it's kind of sad to allow a discussion about a breeder at all, if you're not going to allow for a discussion.


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## Jax08

I think Crack'em understands why negative opinions can't be posted publicly.

I think Crack'em's point was that if only the positive is listed publicly then it gives a skewed picture of the breeder. If the thread is locked and ALL opinions go to PM's then people aren't reading a one sided view. 

If the threads are going to remain open then maybe the people who have a negative view can post "Negative opinion - sent by PM"?


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## Emoore

vat said:


> (someone commented on the dogs colors being off, see the dog in person then tell me that. Not saying it is not true but it is a picture for god sakes!)


Several of their breeding dogs lack a dark mask. This is considered a fault, and you don't need to see the dogs in person to tell that they lack a mask. 

"Missing mask, light (piercing) eye color, as well as light to whitish markings at chest and under/inner sides, light claws, and red-tipped tail are to be considered as deficient pigment. "


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## onyx'girl

If there are posts saying 'sent you a PM', then that is as good as a negative comment when it comes to asking breeder reference. 
If you really have to go to a board to ask about a breeder, then you take what answers you get with the perspective of annonymous advice. I'd rather know_ who_ I am asking for advice, and _know_ their credentials rather than the masses of opinions I'd get.


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## GSDElsa

Jax08 said:


> I think Crack'em understands why negative opinions can't be posted publicly.
> 
> I think Crack'em's point was that if only the positive is listed publicly then it gives a skewed picture of the breeder. If the thread is locked and ALL opinions go to PM's then people aren't reading a one sided view.
> 
> If the threads are going to remain open then maybe the people who have a negative view can post "Negative opinion - sent by PM"?


I think that is a good idea. A poster saying they have an opinion of the breeder and can be contacted via PM if someone wants the story.

I do think a lot can be determined by a breeder by what they put out there, too.


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## Mac's Mom

onyx'girl said:


> If there are posts saying 'sent you a PM', then that is as good as a negative comment when it comes to asking breeder reference.
> If you really have to go to a board to ask about a breeder, then you take what answers you get with the perspective of annonymous advice. I'd rather know_ who_ I am asking for advice, and _know_ their credentials rather than the masses of opinions I'd get.


good point


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## lhczth

crackem said:


> How about this. If somebody is asking for opinions, you close the thread immediately after they post, then EVERYTHING can be sent via PM and that's it.
> 
> why let people post a few "positive" stories if people can't give their "negative" ?? Experiences are subjective. If somebody is asking for them, let them get them and decide for themselves.


Because those are the rules and all of us have to abide by them. 

ADMIN Lisa

****


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## crackem

I understand rules, and I question ones I don't agree with. If the board isn't open for discussion then just say so.


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## Emoore

crackem said:


> I understand rules, and I question ones I don't agree with. If the board isn't open for discussion then just say so.


The board isn't open for discussion.  The rules are made by the board owners; it's not a democracy.


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## crackem

really?


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## onyx'girl

And we can't discuss politics either!!


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## crackem

i know that, i've been here for quite a while. But you see, we CAN'T discuss politics and it makes sense. You can't ask for an opinion on politics and only give the positive, you can't talk about it at all. It's not open for discussion. and that makes sense.

I think it's silly to allow a topic, and not allow a discussion. I was hoping for a real answer other than "those are the rules", but I guess that was expecting a bit much. I'm fully aware, I don't own this site, I don't run, operate, or contribute financially to it. I know I didn't write the rules, help contribute to them, or get any so so whatsoever. I'm fully aware of all of that. i know it's not a democracy, but thank you for taking the time to point that out to me. It's not my first go round on a message board.

i am a member though, have been for a few years now. I used to really like this place, took a break for a while, and lately I come back and find everything is being edited or erased, so I raised a question. 

I don't have a problem with not allowing certain discussions. I do think it's silly to allow only one side on a site. I don't buy the "legal" argument at all, considering ISP providers and web hosts are not liable for statments made by others.


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## onyx'girl

I guess you'd have to inform the breeders being discussed so you could have their input on what is being hashed out publicly. There was the recent thread where no kennel name was mentioned, though the breeder did find out about the discussion about them and came here to defend themselves. I think if someone is getting bashed they should be notified in all fairness to defend themselves. 
A couple years ago a large kennel threatened to sue a few breeders who were local to them and even a few who were posting here because they thought they were being slandered. 
Not that a court would probably even hear the case, but if they have $$ to hire representation and make a big deal out of things, it is just not worth the negative comments made publicly. 
The letters* PM* say it all!


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## CassandGunnar

IMHO, it seems just as inequitable to only "allow" positive feedback as well. As mentioned earlier, it's possible to flood a thread with only the good stuff.

If fairness is the main issue, all breeder comments should be done via PM, both good and bad. I've seen the negatives removed because it's heresay and not first hand experience. The same could be said about positive comments as well.
In the end, it's not my forum and I'm not (nor ever will be) a breeder, but fair is fair.


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## robinhuerta

I don't think the comment.....sending you a PM should be thought as an automatic negative response.
I have said....sending you a PM.....and it meant just that....sending a PM.
I decided to "explain" my thoughts more in a PM to that particular person...than to post directly on the forum. It then became more of a "personal" conversation.
PM's can be hostile too.....all it takes in 1 person to send a message with slander & lies to discredit someone without their knowledge.
This person PM's one person....they then PM another...and another...so on..and so on...
WITHOUT the person (whom they are speaking about) even knowing, that they are being slandered.
*I had a PM sent to me several months back...telling me something about a forum member...thank GOD, that I knew otherwise....and commented to it.

It's a double edged sword.....people get cut either way.
JMO


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## onyx'girl

On the breeder forums "sending a pm" usually means they can't say something nice about the breeder/but may have information or "opinion" that can't be posted. 
Other threads, pm means just that a personal mssg so the thread isn't taken off topic or whatever. 
Thats my take on it anyway.


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## Whiteshepherds

Why would anyone make it public knowledge that they were going to send someone a PM?


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## onyx'girl

Probably to let others know they have a negative comment to make? I don't know, but I see it often on the breeder forums.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Whiteshepherds said:


> Why would anyone make it public knowledge that they were going to send someone a PM?


This is why:


onyx'girl said:


> On the breeder forums "sending a pm" usually means they can't say something nice about the breeder/but may have information or "opinion" that can't be posted.


Publicly bashing a breeder based on a negative experience is not allowed for a number of reasons. If the breeder is not a member of the board they don't know what's being said about them here and do not have the opportunity to defend themselves. That's not fair.

And even if they are members here, there are two sides to every story, and whose to say which one is right? It's not the board's place to mediate breeder/buyer disputes, which should be a private matter between the parties. Would you want your dog's breeder to be able to share negative comments on the board about YOU with impunity? It would be a big ugly mess that the board has chosen to stay out of the middle of. 

Posting that you're "sending someone a PM" is basically code that you might have some less than positive things to say about a particular breeder, and the board rules do allow anyone who chooses so to share negative comments privately. Alternately, it's perfectly okay to post that you have information about a breeder that you can't post publicly and to invite other people to contact you by PM for details. 

I've said that I'm "sending someone a PM" in a breeder thread before and had other people who were not part of the original discussion send me a PM at a later time asking for details. In fact I have one from today that I need to respond to.


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## jaggirl47

JPrice said:


> Yeah, I'd just like to say thank you to every one. Without these facts and opinions I would have thought I was making the right decision. This website has really helped out in this process and I'm glad I didn't jump the gun and throw a deposit down. I now feel like I know exactly what breeder I will choose, and will probably give them a call today.


 
Just wanted to say this was the OP's last post. Post #54. This entire post has completely gone off topic.


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## carmspack

back to the original topic -- I agree totally with Wolfstraum and will add these observations . This may be a moot point but did anyone feel this taken from the web "each Shewana Shepherd carries forth the standards that the German Shepherd Dog " is strange. It is not a Shewana Shepherd it IS a German Shepherd . It can be a Shewana bred German Shepherd -- it is not a Shewana Shepherd .
How about this ? Did anyone think this was strange "before each and every litter is bred , our staff asks ...."what kind of German Shepherd will this breeding produce?" Good breeding is not committee work . This is a big breeding operation so there are going to be cleaners and maintenance people around -- that does not make them breeders . Then a great boast about their dogs being used by police departments and drug and SAR and physical therapy . Limited to mention with NO proof - . Getting dogs to that level is something that is deliberate with well defined terms . I would like some specifics . 
Under litters -- 5 litters promoted , each one with a different male -- 

under guarantees "we have been providing a product called Corid in all the drinking water of all the dogs on our kennel property for many years" . This is for coccidia prevention -- however a mature animal generally is able to ward off coccidia . A young animal does not have an efficiently working immune system so coccidia can get a foothold and cause diarrhea where the amoeba is spread . If loose stools occur a few drops of amprolium / amprol / corid in the water will resolve the problem. Part of good management . However it really is not recommended for long term use . The product works by being a thiamine , Vitamin B inhibitor . If you were to give it long term you have to supplement with the B's . Also some of the parasites have developed a resistance . 
**** some pups that have had exposure to amprolium have developed ataxia , we had the thread with the lady who had a pup flown to her that was wobbly -- might have had too much -- amprolium induced thiamine deficiency . *******
They seem to have a well run clean place with the pups being exposed to staff for socializing. They seem to have a desire to communicate with prospective customers . So from a "merchandise" point of view they are okay . 
From the view of producing the best and the brightest "world class" dogs not so much. The bar is set pretty low .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Castlemaid

I haven't looked at the website - so just a comment in general - some breeders on their website will claim that such-and-such dog (or dogs) went to a local LE agency - that may mean something, or it may mean nothing.

Sometimes breeders will donate a dog to a LE agency so that they can make the above claim - the dog may have been afterwards washed out of training, or not. I would want specifics as to whether the dog is in fact a patrol or detections working dog, and not a mascot.


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## LaRen616

I just want to say that I have an excellent dog that is everything I ever wanted. 

His breeder breeds out of standard large dogs, breeds several litters a year, breeds 11 month old dogs and none of them are titled.

I have a fantastic dog, but would I reccomend that breeder to someone else? 

No!


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## cliffson1

Sometimes I will ask people to pm me about a topic, so that I can elaborate or refute an insertion that has already been made. I have never pm'ed a person ever to talk about another poster or kennel. Have had occaision to give my perspective on a dog in private,usually to correct what is being posted publicly.To me the issue isn't whether it is postive or negative, rather it is whether it is accurate or inaccurate.Many people with the most opinions, have opinions based on outdated or limited knowlledge. But what else is new?? For me a pm is a method of conveying specific knowledge and not a "lack of confidence"lol!!


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## VomBlack

cliffson1 said:


> To me the issue isn't whether it is postive or negative, rather it is whether it is accurate or inaccurate.


:thumbup:


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## cornishbecky

Wow 39 Breeding dogs!!!!! Now that is a big business breeding program, with staff and large kennel blocks (no matter how clean etc its not a home is it).

I would not buy from this breeder as it seems they are in it purley for the money.
I assume that with all the kennels, they wont even be house pets, let alone titled, unless the "staff" train them.
what a life for a dog!

I have already brought the best dog in the world (to me anyway), and i kick myself now for it, didnt see the parents, no health certs, raised outside in a shed, very bad temperment, very bad hips at 2yrs old. YES I should have educated myself BUT the dog should not have been born in the first place!!!!
I would not knowing give a penny to scum like that again.
Research research research,,,,,, till you are happy with a breeder, after all it is you that is going to have to live with the dog for x amount of years!


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## Emoore

Whiteshepherds said:


> Why would anyone make it public knowledge that they were going to send someone a PM?


Because sometimes my computer blocks the PM pop up and I don't see the PM until days later!


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## Kris10

Emoore said:


> Because sometimes my computer blocks the PM pop up and I don't see the PM until days later!


Ooohhh.. I always wondered about that. Thanks for clearing it up for me


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## holland

I get really frustrated with these threads. There are tons of threads on this boards asking for breeder reccommendations it probably covers all of the states and there is a sticky How to pick a responsible breeder. People state do your research and I guess people truly believe that reasearch is posting the breeders website and going with what other people have to say. There are also breeders who post the standard and lots of other education information on their website. I also think that people believe that if they do research they will get the perfect dog-its gentics sometimes things go wrong and to me that doesn't mean thats a bad breeder. People talk about responsible breeders but not responsible buyers- Then there are the knowledgeable breeders who take the time to rip someone else breeding program apart (and maybe it is really bad) It makes them sad-And when the owner is upset after reading everything that was posted they are intrepreting it wrong and taking it personally So not only do they not know how to pick a dog but they don't even know how to read. I love my dogs-but to me it just seems that the worthy dogs are the dogs being schutzhund titled and the people who are doing it. Breeders want their dogs titled so that they can say that they are proven-and they would like them to go to experienced homes. And that it what it seems owning a GSD is all about-Lastly if this board is truly a Canadian owned board there doesn't seem to be many Canadian breeders on it-maybe they are out training


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## Whiteshepherds

holland said:


> *I guess people truly believe that reasearch is posting the breeders website and going with what other people have to say.*


Word of mouth is a pretty powerful, both positive and negative wouldn't you say?


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## cliffson1

I don't think that the worthy dogs are only the ones that are titled in Sch. I don't title my dogs in Sch anymore.....BUT my dogs CAN be titled in Sch if that's what people want to do with them. And thererin is the difference. Whether you breed for Sch or not, you still should be breeding dogs that can do Sch comfortably!!! Afterall the sport was created for this breed as a standard of what the dog should be able to do!!!


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## Emoore

Whiteshepherds said:


> Word of mouth is a pretty powerful, both positive and negative wouldn't you say?


I think word of mouth can be a strong component of somebody's research, but but a lot of people think that getting opinions on forums and searching google is all the research they need to do.


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## Cassidy's Mom

holland said:


> People state do your research and I guess people truly believe that research is posting the breeders website and going with what other people have to say.


Do people really believe that? That shouldn't be the end of your research, but it's not a bad place to start. At the very least, it can help weed through a list of potential breeders and narrow it down to those that warrant further inquiry. 

If I have 10 or 12 potential breeder that I might be interested in I don't know that I'm going to call or email every single one of them, possibly wasting their time, if I have no idea whether or not they're breeding dogs that would be suitable for the type of home I can provide, or if they'd be someone I'd want to work with based on the experiences that others have had with them. 

It'd be wonderful if we could all fly all over the country to meet potential breeders and see their dogs in person, but that's just not feasible. :shrug:


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## Kris10

holland said:


> I get really frustrated with these threads. There are tons of threads on this boards asking for breeder reccommendations it probably covers all of the states and there is a sticky How to pick a responsible breeder. People state do your research and I guess people truly believe that reasearch is posting the breeders website and going with what other people have to say. There are also breeders who post the standard and lots of other education information on their website. I also think that people believe that if they do research they will get the perfect dog-its gentics sometimes things go wrong and to me that doesn't mean thats a bad breeder. People talk about responsible breeders but not responsible buyers- Then there are the knowledgeable breeders who take the time to rip someone else breeding program apart (and maybe it is really bad) It makes them sad-And when the owner is upset after reading everything that was posted they are intrepreting it wrong and taking it personally So not only do they not know how to pick a dog but they don't even know how to read. I love my dogs-but to me it just seems that the worthy dogs are the dogs being schutzhund titled and the people who are doing it. Breeders want their dogs titled so that they can say that they are proven-and they would like them to go to experienced homes. And that it what it seems owning a GSD is all about-Lastly if this board is truly a Canadian owned board there doesn't seem to be many Canadian breeders on it-maybe they are out training


I think when people are told "do your research" that IDEALLY includes coming to a forum such as this, and asking dog owners and lovers themselves what they recommend, with the understanding that it is just a PART of their research. I am sure a lot of people wish they could come here and post "Hey I am from Indiana and I want you to tell me if I should get my dog from "this breeder" or can you tell me who the "reputable breeders" are within 2 hours from my house? But FORTUNATELY there are experienced people here who care enough to take the time to explain that it is much more complicated than that, and start asking questions such as "How much time do you want to spend exercising your dog? What lines are you looking for? etc..." Hopefully some of that gets through to people, but of course that isn't always the case. 

I do think that threads like this are valuable, as other threads that may seem repetitive to long time members, in that a kind of passive learning occurs just when reading it for entertainment. Someone who isn't even looking for a puppy at the time may walk away and think about what they read here when the time comes to start looking for one. Someone who is just browsing the new posts section. I have a lot of questions ready to ask myself AND prospective breeders when the time comes for a new pup.


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## carmspack

I am one of those Canadian breeders. I don't see what the Canadian element has to do with this? 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CassandGunnar

Prior to coming to this forum/site, I thought I knew what questions I would ask a breeder to find out about purchasing a puppy and knew what to look for from a breeder.
After going through and reading threads, I think I was on the right track, but have learned a lot and found things here I never would have considered.
I don't think there is such a thing as "too much" information, good or bad. That also has to do with how I make decisions.
There is a TON of good informaiton here, but in the end, it is up to the prospective buyer, based on what they want and how they process information and make a decision.
There is also one other important thing to remember:

Let the buyer beware.

If someone reads an add on Craigslist, a newspaper, or finds something on an internet site and rushes out and gets a dog based on that, they are getting what they paid for or deserve. (Not trying to say that in a "mean spirited" way, just pointing out that it's up to you to educate yourself and show some due diligence when making any purchase, especially if you're going to spend a lot of your hard earned money on something. (Car, appliance, house or dog)
If I go out and buy a new washing machine from some guy that has them for sale out of the back of his pickup truck in a parking lot and that washer works for 3 days and then falls apart, not too many people are going to feel sorry for me. And they probably shouldn't.
I think the same principles should apply to buying a dog.


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## vat

cornishbecky said:


> Wow 39 Breeding dogs!!!!! Now that is a big business breeding program, with staff and large kennel blocks (no matter how clean etc its not a home is it).
> 
> I would not buy from this breeder as it seems they are in it purley for the money.
> I assume that with all the kennels, they wont even be house pets, let alone titled, unless the "staff" train them.
> what a life for a dog!
> 
> I have already brought the best dog in the world (to me anyway), and i kick myself now for it, didnt see the parents, no health certs, raised outside in a shed, very bad temperment, very bad hips at 2yrs old. YES I should have educated myself BUT the dog should not have been born in the first place!!!!
> I would not knowing give a penny to scum like that again.
> Research research research,,,,,, till you are happy with a breeder, after all it is you that is going to have to live with the dog for x amount of years!


You assume the dogs are not titled since it is not on the website. You assume that the dogs have no life but you do not know that because you have never been there. You assume that this person makes so much money and that is why they do it and why there are many dogs.

Well because I hate assumptions I will share what I know for fact. There are titled dogs in show ring (I mentioned this in a previuos post), no Sch but that does not mean people are not doing that with their pups. They are also working on agility. The dogs live on 5 acres surrounded by (I do not even remember how many acres) of conservation land. Yes they get to run and play and be dogs!

Not all the dogs are breeding at once, it is several bloodlines this breeder has worked on for 40 years. This person does have a love for the breed and not the money. Believe me it costs allot to keep that many dogs but when you have almost lost a bloodline in the past I guess you take precautions.

I agree, research research but I really hope that people do not come to this forum and make a choice based on assumptions from others. I am not speaking of this post alone. I think it is great to give opinions, that is what we all are looking for but to give out assumptions does not really help anyone.


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## Andaka

Just out of curiosity (and because I am nosy), what are the names of the show dogs? I am unfamiliar with the kennel name.


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## robinhuerta

I am not familiar with that kennel name in the German Style Shows either...?
I love to see breeders from the area(s) all supporting the different venues....
What "Kennel name" do they use for the shows?


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## vat

Grand Champion Shewana's Lady in Red, Champion Shewana's Burning Love, Grand Champion, RO1, RN Shewana's Mighty Thunder, Champion Shewana's On a Roll.

Just a few, I do think the show titles are UKC not AKC probably why you have not seen them. I think most here support AKC.


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## shewana_shepherds

Hello Fellow Members:

I am the owner and operator of Shewana Shepherds. 

After reading through the previous posts in this thread, I am troubled by the amount of negative assumptions made about my kennel, and insinuations that I am a "puppy mill". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Staying in accordance with the rules of this forum, I will NOT address specific statements that attempt to paint my kennel in a negative light here. However, I will say that I find it in poor taste that anyone who has never met me, my dogs, my staff, or seen our facility firsthand would criticize us or what we do.

The simple fact is that I have devoted myself to this noble breed for over 40 years of my life. Additionally, Shewana Shepherds is an Illinois State-licensed breeder in good standing, and we are currently about to celebrate our 18th year in business. In fact, each year we are inspected by the Illinois Department of Agriculture, as well as the American Kennel Club. Moreover, we maintain a professional working relationship with our local Animal Control agency, and we abide by all local/county ordinances that apply to our animals.

Outside of the regulatory aspects of running and operating a breeding kennel, we do EVERYTHING humanly possible to maintain the health and well-being of our pups and older dogs. Simply put, we treat each of our dogs as part of our family. Moreover, we are continually maintaining and upgrading our kennel facilities.

More importantly, before a pup goes to a new home, we conduct a thorough interview and screening of our potential customers. And, once one of our dogs has gone to its new home, we work with our clients to give their pup the best chance for health and happiness in their lives. As a result, we have received countless pictures, emails and letters each year from satisfied customers, expressing just how much they love their dogs.

I encourage anyone who has questions about my kennel, my dogs, breeding philosophy, guarantee, pedigrees, website, or anything else for that matter to give me the opportunity to address them directly.

As such, please feel free to contact me *** contact information removed by Admin** Or, you may send me an email at "** removed by Admin**".

Thank you very much.

~ Wilma J.

PS: Valerie, thank you for your support of our kennel and our dogs!


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## Emoore

Sooooo.... no titles? No hip or elbow certifications? Do you do anything with your dogs besides make puppies?

Actually, being inspected each year by the USDA is a sign of a possible puppy mill, since the USDA doesn't have time to devote to inspecting small hobby breeders, let alone every single year. You must be a big operation.

I don't have to meet your or your staff to call a duck a duck. If it looks like a puppy mill and quacks like one. . .


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## LaRen616

Emoore said:


> Sooooo.... no titles? No hip or elbow certifications? Do you do anything with your dogs besides make puppies?
> 
> Actually, being inspected each year by the USDA is a sign of a possible puppy mill, since the USDA doesn't have time to devote to inspecting small hobby breeders, let alone every single year. You must be a big operation.
> 
> I don't have to meet your or your staff to call a duck a duck. If it looks like a puppy mill and quacks like one. . .


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## selzer

Actually being inspected every year by the USDA and or the AKC DOES NOT mean you are a puppy mill. It simply means that you produce a number of puppies, and the USDA and the AKC tend to go after people producing a lot of puppies, because it is more likely that someone producing many puppies will not be able to keep up. 

Someone producing one or two litters can have dogs in terrible conditions and never be looked at. 

That said, it is really not enough to have met the minimum requirements of the AKC or the USDA to be recommended by people. Because I do not title my dogs in Schutzhund, if I had a website, there are members here that would say negative things, and not recommend me. That is ok, that is what is important to them. 

I think that the overall feel is that people should have some direction they are going in, that they should have some area of concentration beyond pets -- we all breed pups that will be pets -- those of us that breed dogs. 

I think the website is your window to the world. If you have one, you should probably list the best that you can say about yourself. If you want a job as an engineer, you want a resume to list out your certificates, your education, your accomplishments, your qualifications, you experience. 

So when people see your website, they have it in their minds that this person is putting out the best they can say about their dogs. Not the minimum, but the best (maybe even some exaggerating). They do not think people are holding back the champions, the titles, the health certs, and pedigrees because they do not want to come across as bragging. They are thinking that there is nothing there worth bragging about, nothing there that says your dogs should be bred. 

Exclaiming that you have passed inspections is like me bragging that I fed and watered my dogs today. It is what is definitely expected. 

Puppy-mill is an AR or HSUS term that I really do not like at all. It should be saved for people violating the law, who should be charged with animal cruelty and go to prison. 

Commercial breeders are not puppy mills, but people have the right to believe that too many dogs puts you out of the running as a dog breeder for them. They feel the dogs in your care cannot possibly have a normal life, and puppies should be raised in the house. These are opinions. Most people have this opinion to some extent, but move the line at how many dogs is too many dogs. I know I would not buy from someone with six hundred. Would I buy from someone with 558? No. I do not have a number, but at some point it is not about the individual dogs. 

39 active breeding dogs is way to many for me to handle at this point in my life. Is it too many for anyone? I really do not know. If someone has a bunch of dogs in co-ownerships and is basically just overseeing breeding decisions, probably not. But having 40 dogs on 20 acres doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling. 

If those dogs were titled, if they have accomplishments, if some have been certified for some type of work, if there is a list of progeny accomplishments for each dog. That would make a difference. 

Mostly though, breeding should be done for a purpose. That purpose should be to produce excellent GSDs. I think that a breeder ought to hold back their best dogs to move forward with. And they need to measure what they are producing in some way. Again, titles are the easiest way an outsider can see what your dog is capable of without actually meeting the dog, and watching the dog work. It does not give a complete picture, but otherwise, you have only a bunch of pictures of GSDs.


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


> Sooooo.... no titles? No hip or elbow certifications? Do you do anything with your dogs besides make puppies?
> 
> 
> I don't have to meet your or your staff to call a duck a duck. If it looks like a puppy mill and quacks like one. . .


 
This should bring you to Shewana's OFA results page. If not just type Shewana in the space provided.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## chruby

I am familiar with this breeder. 
<snip>
I know this is a lengthy thread but I thought this was worth a mention to anyone considering a pup from this breeder.


*** Bulk of post removed by Admin. Please contact the poster privately if you are interested in her information.***


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## holland

*** Removed by Admin as comments to which it referred were removed.***


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## chruby

*** Removed by Admin as comments to which it referred were removed.***


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## DunRingill

I'm having trouble finding pedigrees for any of the dogs on this web site. If that info is there and I just missed it, please let me know! There's no way I'd consider or recommend a breeder that sells puppies from a web site that doesn't include the pedigree info. 

I did see the OFA info.....it's good that there are 136 entries, but out of how many puppies produced? and the 136 entries is not 136 dogs, because hip and elbow are 2 separate entries. Taking hips only brings the number down to 86 entries, of which 4 were dysplastic. The dysplastic entries aren't normally published so there's no way to know how many there have been. So we're talking 82 dogs passed, going back 18 years, out of how many produced? Is the breeding stock all certified, hips and elbows? Again from the web site it's very difficult to tell.


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## Chris Wild

As this thread is deteriorating I am closing it. People can contact the breeder or other posters privately if they wish to continue to discuss it.

-Admin


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