# Black and Tan or Patterned Sable?



## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I always thought my GSD was Black and Tan, the breeder also told me he was. I'm not 100% sure now. I saw some pictures of Patterned Sables and it made me think that maybe Harley was that; You can't tell if you look at a picture of him, but he has tan hairs underneath the black, and black hairs underneath the tan. I don't know if this is typical for Black and Tans? I was just curious.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

He looks black and tan to me, personally lol. Spread his hairs with your hands and see if they are banded.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Can you post a picture? Many people think that my dog is black and tan, but he is definitely a patterned sable.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

LOL! Aiden is actually the patterned sable I was comparing OP's furbaby to!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

He's black and tan. Post puppy pics.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> LOL! Aiden is actually the patterned sable I was comparing OP's furbaby to!


LOL! I just went to OP's photo album. I think he's black and tan as well.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I always thought my GSD was Black and Tan, the breeder also told me he was. I'm not 100% sure now. I saw some pictures of Patterned Sables and it made me think that maybe Harley was that; You can't tell if you look at a picture of him, but he has tan hairs underneath the black, and black hairs underneath the tan. I don't know if this is typical for Black and Tans? I was just curious.


What did he look like as a puppy? Was he mostly black with tan feet, or mostly tan with a black stripe down the back?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Shasta as a puppy









Shasta now











She's a patterned sable. If your pup didnt look like her basically as a puppy, you have a black and tan.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Shasta as a puppy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 OT, but that pic of Shasta as a puppy made me "AWWWWWWWWWWWW!" out loud!!!  Everyone is looking at me like I'm insane.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> OT, but that pic of Shasta as a puppy made me "AWWWWWWWWWWWW!" out loud!!!  Everyone is looking at me like I'm insane.


 
lol she was a cute lil monster.


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## chester (Sep 29, 2011)

sable! you can tell from the white/gray hair around the shoulders and chest


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

chester said:


> sable! you can tell from the white/gray hair around the shoulders and chest


 Not necessarily. My girl has bright points on her chest, feet, in the front of her hind legs and front of the forlegs but she is black and tan.


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## chester (Sep 29, 2011)

I agree with you on spreading the hair and looking for the banding but bost sables have a more whitish/gray fur in the shoulder area not the tipical light tan. Its a small pic but was pionting out that aswell as everyone elses point on it being a sable


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

chester said:


> I agree with you on spreading the hair and looking for the banding but bost sables have a more whitish/gray fur in the shoulder area not the tipical light tan. Its a small pic but was pionting out that aswell as everyone elses point on it being a sable


 
Even black and tan saddles can have some sabling at the shoulders. THAT is not an indicator. If the pup was a tan color when younger instead of black with tan points, then he would be a patterned sable but if you look at the OPs pic album, the dog is black and tan.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Below is a picture of the OPs dog from their album. The saddle is black. If the dog was a patterned sable, the saddle would NOT be black.


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## chester (Sep 29, 2011)

*Concerning Genes: THE AGOUTI SERIES*

*The basic body color of the German Shepherd is controlled by the genes.* The order of German Shepherd coat colors dominance is as follows: golden sable, grey sable, saddle marked black and tan, bicolor* black and tan (bicolor is where the dog only has tan on the legs and face, not on the body), and black.

Additionally, know that *the black gene is recessive to all the other colors in GSD's.* Solid black German Shepherds bred to solid black German Shepherds will only produce blacks. *The sable colors are dominant *over all the other colors and patterns in the German Shepherd [COLOR=#000096 !important][COLOR=#000096 !important]Dog breed[/COLOR][/COLOR].
​


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> Even black and tan saddles can have some sabling at the shoulders. THAT is not an indicator. If the pup was a tan color when younger instead of black with tan points, then he would be a patterned sable but if you look at the OPs pic album, the dog is black and tan.


 ^ This was my point  I just didn't voice it as well ^w^


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## chester (Sep 29, 2011)

op's







op's dog has a sable hair all over the back







black & tan solid black blanket. the puppy pics would help sables are tan as you has stated. Not tring to argue, I know what my dog is. I have a sable GSD!


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

He looks like my girl (the saddle does). Black saddle, just a lot of silver ticking.


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## chester (Sep 29, 2011)

This was one reason we went with a sable, you never really know what your going to get with a black and tan hahaha the mask can be real light or dark or whatever hahaha i love my sable and atleast you can look at all the differnt color hair aroung the house not just black and tan ones hahah


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Koda actually leaves white, tan, black, silver, and two-toned hairs everywhere. She's simply not a good example of confirmation or color xD 
I used to prefer sables, I actually always wanted a sable. But all 3 WGWL's I've had have been B/T. And now I want a WGSL for my next shepherd sooo  Not likely to get a sable 
I think they're all gorgeous in their own way, though..


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

The following is Shelby, a BLACK AND TAN FEMALE!!! Note the ticking on her shoulders with SOLID saddle. 










From left to right, Shelby (black and tan), Riley (Mixed breed), Shasta (patterned sable)









Shelby again










To be a patterned sable, the OPs dog would have to be noticably patterned throughout the saddle. You would see it. The dog is a black and tan with ticking. I'm well aware of the agouti definition. Hence the reason in a previous posts I asked for the OP to post PUPPY pictures. That would solve the question.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The "sable" pattern going down the back is commonly called a "bitch stripe". It occurs in black and tan saddlebacks, most commonly in females (hence the name), but males can have it too, especially neutered males.

The photos of OP's dog in this thread appear to be a black and tan dog with a bitch stripe. But the puppy photos will tell us definitively what the genotype is. If the puppy photos (from birth up to about 3 months) show a black coat with tan paws, he's a black & tan. If the puppy photos show a tan coat with a black stripe down the back, he's sable. 

GSDs cannot change from black & tan to sable, regardless of how individual hairs may appear.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Freestep said:


> The "sable" pattern going down the back is commonly called a "bitch stripe". It occurs in black and tan saddlebacks, most commonly in females (hence the name), but males can have it too, especially neutered males.
> 
> The photos of OP's dog in this thread appear to be a black and tan dog with a bitch stripe. But the puppy photos will tell us definitively what the genotype is. If the puppy photos (from birth up to about 3 months) show a black coat with tan paws, he's a black & tan. If the puppy photos show a tan coat with a black stripe down the back, he's sable.
> 
> GSDs cannot change from black & tan to sable, regardless of how individual hairs may appear.


 

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Krystal, my Shasta's saddle looks black, so that might not be a sure fire sign, at least for coated dogs.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

paulag1955 said:


> Krystal, my Shasta's saddle looks black, so that might not be a sure fire sign, at least for coated dogs.


 
but thats the difference. You're dog is coated. The OPs is not.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> Can you post a picture? Many people think that my dog is black and tan, but he is definitely a patterned sable.


See, I can definately tell that yours is a Sable, because you can see the tan hairs under the black. I just wasn't sure if you have to be able to see this coloration for it to be so.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> Shasta as a puppy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay then, he is black and tan. As a puppy, he had a black extended saddle. 
Here he is at 4 months:


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> The "sable" pattern going down the back is commonly called a "bitch stripe". It occurs in black and tan saddlebacks, most commonly in females (hence the name), but males can have it too, especially neutered males.
> 
> The photos of OP's dog in this thread appear to be a black and tan dog with a bitch stripe. But the puppy photos will tell us definitively what the genotype is. If the puppy photos (from birth up to about 3 months) show a black coat with tan paws, he's a black & tan. If the puppy photos show a tan coat with a black stripe down the back, he's sable.
> 
> GSDs cannot change from black & tan to sable, regardless of how individual hairs may appear.


 Harley is black and tan with a bitch stripe. (he's also neutered) 
This is him at 4 months, as you are describing, he is a black and tan.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Yep, he's black and tan, and always will be.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who posted, I know that Harley is an ordinary black and tan.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> To be a patterned sable, the OPs dog would have to be noticably patterned throughout the saddle. You would see it.


This is what I was thinking, I just wanted to be sure.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

hmm after reading all the posts, i would have to say, i don't know. what i do know is, that is a very good looking gsd!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> hmm after reading all the posts, i would have to say, i don't know. what i do know is, that is a very good looking gsd!


 Are you talking about Harley, or one of the other Shepherds posted on here? Lol. They are all so gorgeous!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

my post was directed at harley, but you are correct, lots of good looking gsds pictured on this forum!


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Thanks to everyone who posted, I know that Harley is an ordinary black and tan.


He may be black and tan, but I'm sure he's anything but ordinary!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

huntergreen said:


> my post was directed at harley, but you are correct, lots of good looking gsds pictured on this forum!


 Well then, thank you!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

paulag1955 said:


> He may be black and tan, but I'm sure he's anything but ordinary!


 Right you are!


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