# Why would raw dog food cause diarrhea?



## Jennifer

Under what conditions would this happen? I can't figure it out. 

We adopted our now-9-month old GSD 3 months ago. At the time of adoption, the breeder treated him orally for parasites/worms as a precaution before sending him home with us. I transitioned him slowly from his grain kibble onto Orijen large breed puppy kibble. He did fine with this transition and then the Orijen food exclusively. 

Shortly after getting him onto the grain-free kibble, I began to introduce some raw meat (a ratio of about 1 cup raw meat mixed in with 2 cups of kibble). I've used different kinds from different sources, and to me that would prove that the issue is with him and not the meats. 

However, he seems to frequently have diarrhea. 

He has had solid stools regularly as well, they're just interspersed with bouts of diarrhea. From his patterns, it seems that only the raw meats could be contributing to this issue. I have wondered if maybe the fat content is too high in the raw meats or something, but then again the breeder recommended a 38% fat content for his diet while still a puppy and the raw meats he's eating are all around 30-32% at the most (some are less than that). 

Also, there are times when I give him a larger amount of food at once, too (because he tends to self-regulate very well). He'll eat some or most of it and leave the rest for later. I am wondering if perhaps he's not self-regulating as well as I'm assuming and maybe it's a quantity issue that's causing the diarrhea. I don't know. 

Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## Jgk2383

Im not an expert as im having my own food issues here with feeding Orijen but I do know that some say its not good to mix dry with raw. I have no idea how true that is. Some dogs cannot tolerate a raw diet. Every dog is different. I wish there were cut and dry answers to all these questions. I am paying more attention and fretting over what my dog is eating and how hes pooping... its crazy


----------



## BowWowMeow

Feeding too much can definitely cause diarrhea. I would add an extra meal rather than add extra food and leave it down for him. Dogs do better eating meals rather than free feeding, especially the gsds with their notorious digestive issues! 

You might try supplementing with something like chicken backs or turkey necks to supplement instead of ground meats. Those are great for the teeth too.


----------



## Miikkas mom

Jennifer said:


> Shortly after getting him onto the grain-free kibble, I began to introduce some raw meat (a ratio of about 1 cup raw meat mixed in with 2 cups of kibble). I've used different kinds from different sources, and to me that would prove that the issue is with him and not the meats.


 
From what I understand, one should not feed kibble and raw at the same time. I believe you can feed both types of foods but they should be fed at different time’s i.e. feed one type in the morning and the other type at the evening meal, but never together.


----------



## DogGone

Sufficient quantities of raw meat have a tendency to cause diarrhea. IIRC I think the experts of raw feeding often had other things like sweet potatoes to reduce the amount of diarrhea. German shepherds are notorious for getting diarrhea very easily. With some of them it can be a chronic and serious health issue; even with dry dog food. German shepherds are prone to a genetic disease that can cause chronic diarrhea.


----------



## rjvamp

Here is an article that address loose still and raw:

What to Do if Your Dog “Doesn’t Do Well” on Raw

"Diarrhea

Diarrhea is defined as ‘abnormally frequent intestinal evacuations with more or less fluid stools’.

Sometimes diarrhea follows the introduction of and is associated with raw food. Maybe a dog’s enzyme systems need time to adjust or maybe it’s to do with the population of bowel bacteria that need time to change. Sometimes the diarrhea derives from the pet being exposed to new bacteria for the first time. Usually, diarrhea following introduction of raw food is short lived and resolves itself. Your role is to keep an eye on things to make sure your dog does not look or act unwell and to clean up the mess.

Dietary sensitivity or allergy may be a trigger for diarrhea. Some dogs, allergic to cooked meats in processed food, eat the same meat raw without ill effect.

If a dog occasionally passes soft or loose stools it’s seldom a cause for concern. However, if your pet appears unwell, or if stool abnormalities persist, then best to consult your vet."


----------



## Jennifer

This is all very helpful feedback, thank you. I did not know that German shepherds are prone to digestive issues. 

I will begin feeding smaller amounts at once and either all-kibble or all-raw for each feeding and see if those changes help. I sure hope he doesn't have any genetic issues related to his digestion. His breeding was extremely meticulous and I would like to hope that things like genetically-weak digestive predispositions were intentionally prevented.


----------



## GSDSunshine

Also, remember that if you were to feed an all raw diet, you wouldn't feed just meat, part of the problem is a lack of bone in the diet. Also 32% is very high fat and might also be causing your problems. While I agree that fat and protein are very important, I would say even 20 would be a bit high. IMO


----------



## vomlittlehaus

Remember that the raw food gets digested at a faster rate than kibble does. That is why they dont recommend feeding them in the same meal. Also, he could be allergic to a certain meat in the raw. If you are feeding a mix of meats, try switching to just one meat source for a week, perhaps start with chicken first. Chicken seems to be easier on the stomach and digestive tract. You dont say exactly what meats, organs, bone you are feeding. Could be one of the meat sources is too rich. Since the diarrhea is intermittent, that leads me to believe he was having an issue with what was feed prior to the diarrhea. Keep in mind too, that anything that passes into the stomach could cause it. Too much hot dog, cheese, or what ever from a training session. Or maybe 'dropsies' on the kitchen floor. My dog loves her 'dropsies'.


----------



## DogGone

I think the other poster (GSDSunshine) may have had a good point about fat content. Part of the reason for the diarrhea may be their relatively higher fat content. Generally when we cook food the fat content is lower, because usually before we cook the food we are more careful about cutting out the fat and during the cooking process and after cooking we usually pour off excess fat. So usually when we cook meat we reduce the amount of fat. 

So it may not be the fact that the food is *raw* in itself that is making the diarrhea worse, it might be just the relative *higher fat content *of the particular food you are feeding it.
　
High concentrations of fat can cause diarrhea. 
　
Also sudden changes in diet can cause diarrhea.
　
That’s why a lot of times during the holidays there is a lot of emergency vet visits and many of the dogs end up very sick and some even die. During holidays especially like Christmas or Thanksgiving we tend to live very high on the hog, we often give the dog a lot of excess fat and/or the scrap/leftovers and; the sudden change of diet and large amounts of high level fat food can sometimes make a dog very sick or even kill it. 
Dogs, Holiday Foods, and Pancreatitis: Thanksgiving and Christmas Treats Can Make Your Dog Sick
　
I usually save the leftovers from the holidays and give them to the dog spread over a couple weeks of time rather than let it gorge itself on the same amount of leftovers in one or two meals. I think it’s safer to spread it out in smaller quantities over a long period of time.


----------



## onyx'girl

When I transitioned Onyx and Kacie to raw from kibble they had a few days of runny stool. They've been on raw for over 3 years and I've not had an issue with the diet since.
It is normal when changing over to have pudding plops, not diarrhea.
I agree with Ruth about the turkey necks, chicken backs. They have to have the proper meat/bone/organ ratio for proper absorbtion and balance.
When I transitioned I started with chicken only and then added in different proteins slowly. If you overfeed you'll get runny poo(again not diarrhea) and too much organ meat will cause it as well. 
Feeding leftovers or adding in a raw meal now and then on a kibble fed dog can cause digestive problems. If you want to go raw, its best to go "cold turkey" instead of kibble/raw or one meal of each. Some dogs can't handle the change well.


----------



## Jennifer

Well, I should clarify then that they are in fact 'pudding plops' and not true diarrhea (guess I was just generalizing and that wasn't helpful).

The raw food he has eaten the most of has been specially made for dogs by one of our local organic pastured beef farmers. It consists of ground beef, organ meat, suet, etc. that is from their cows. Not sure if there are bones in it - I will ask. I have fed him a fair amount of marrow bones and chicken bones as well, though. In fact, come to think of it, the chicken and chicken bones I have fed him gave him the runniest poops of all. 

He almost never receives 'dropsies' as I am ultra-scrupulous about avoiding having him eat things that aren't ideal for his health.




dawnandjr said:


> Remember that the raw food gets digested at a faster rate than kibble does. That is why they dont recommend feeding them in the same meal.



THIS is very interesting and good to know. It does make sense. Hmm... I have been mixing the two because I notice that when I feed him straight raw and then straight kibble he will not eat much kibble and instead hold out for the next raw feeding... and I am unable to do 100% raw. But I may not have given this arrangement enough time - perhaps he will adjust and then begin to eat more kibble when it's kibble time if he knows that's the routine.


----------



## Mac's Mom

I mix kibble with raw and Mac is fine.


----------



## Elaine

People can and do feed raw and kibble in the same meal and there is nothing wrong with that. 

My concern is what sort of nutritional education does this beef farmer have that makes him qualified to make a raw dog food? Is it nutritionally complete and balanced? To what levels?


----------



## GSDSunshine

The mixture has OM (organ meat) in it. I would blame that as your culprit (or possible culprit). When I was feeding raw to Koda I had to be very careful with how much OM he was fed, If I fed him more than the size of my fingernail at a feeding he would get runny poop. I was able to increase his amount slowly over months until he could get about 1.2 oz a day. But if this farmer is mixing it up and some day you get more OM than others, then it could be because he is eating high quantities of OM and the "richness" of it is over-whelming his digestive tract.


----------



## Jennifer

Oh, that is very good to know about the organ meat . . .


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

The #1 reason for loose stools on raw is OVERfeeding.

How old is the dog, much does the dog weigh and how much (in ounces) are you feeding each day?


----------



## Jennifer

Wow, that is interesting about the overfeeding. 

I am feeding based on breeder recommendations because he's a little thin. 

He is going to be 9 months old tomorrow. He currently weighs at least 86 pounds (that's what he weighed a couple of weeks ago when he was last weighed). 

I am feeding him between 4-6 cups (per the breeder's instructions) each day of a combination of Orijen kibble and raw. The thing is, he is really good at self-regulating, it appears, because he leaves food in his bowl repeatedly whenever he is full. I've had dogs that will chow down anything in sight no matter how much they've recently had to eat. Also, like I mentioned above, he is a little on the thin side and a very large puppy to begin with.


----------



## Stosh

He doesn't sound underweight, Stosh is 8 mos and 78 lbs. He's also very good at eating just the amount he needs at each meal and sometimes he'll skip a meal. I was trying to feed raw and dry together, didn't work out too well.


----------



## Jennifer

Stosh said:


> He doesn't sound underweight, Stosh is 8 mos and 78 lbs.


Oro is a very large dog. He looks thin for his size. His full-grown weight is estimated to be around 110#.




> I was trying to feed raw and dry together, didn't work out too well.


What didn't work out well for you guys? Can you describe your experience?


----------



## aubie

Jennifer said:


> I have fed him a fair amount of marrow bones and chicken bones as well, though.


Do the marrow bones still have marrow in them? Marrow can cause runny poo as well. IMHO I think it's a combo of overfeeding and the marrow and not a sufficient amount of bone and possibly too much OM from the mix you're getting.

Even if you're feeding a 50/50 diet (50 kibble/50 raw) you need to include a complete raw portion, including muscle meat, raw meaty bone and organ.


----------



## GSDSunshine

I would want to see his pictures as well. One from the side, and one from above is most helpful. GSDs are supposed to be kept lean, so he might not be under weight at all, most german shepherds don't reach full size until after a year. (mine just started filling out after 2).


----------



## Jennifer

aubie said:


> Do the marrow bones still have marrow in them? Marrow can cause runny poo as well. IMHO I think it's a combo of overfeeding and the marrow and not a sufficient amount of bone and possibly too much OM from the mix you're getting.
> 
> Even if you're feeding a 50/50 diet (50 kibble/50 raw) you need to include a complete raw portion, including muscle meat, raw meaty bone and organ.



Yes, the marrow bones still have marrow in them, but he's only getting those about once or twice per month and yet the runny stools are much more frequent. 

What does 'OM' stand for?

Thank you for the explanation about what the raw meat should contain. I am really appreciating all that I'm learning here.




GSDSunshine said:


> I would want to see his pictures as well. One from the side, and one from above is most helpful. GSDs are supposed to be kept lean, so he might not be under weight at all, most german shepherds don't reach full size until after a year. (mine just started filling out after 2).


I would be happy to post photos. It may take until tomorrow for me to get to it though because today is my son's birthday and I need to be focused on that. It may be the case that Oro _has_ filled out as much as he needs to for his age but I'm not sure. When I got him 3 months ago, the breeder said he was on the thin side (she's been breeding world class GSDs for over 30 years) so I went with her opinion and instructions based on that.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

Jennifer said:


> What does 'OM' stand for?


Organ Meat - liver, kidney, brains ...


----------



## Jennifer

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Organ Meat - liver, kidney, brains ...



Ah, thank you. 


Hey, I just have a second right now but want to mention that it's really strange to me that whenever he goes a few days eating only the Orijen -free feeding as well- his poop becomes solid. Like right now, I decided to lay off the raw completely for a few days because of concern about how long the 'pudding poops' were going on for, and I'm noticing that his poops are becoming more solid . . . and this has happened every time he's been only on the Orijen (like when we went on a week-long camping trip and that's all I brought for him). 


Why would that be??


----------



## GSDSunshine

Orijen was created by people that know how to create a balanced diet. Not saying you can't create one. But it sounds like the raw that you are feeding him currently isn't balanced and it is throwing off his digestive tract. 

If I were you I would stick with the Orijen for the time being and do some more reading up on a RAW diet. When I first started feeding Koda raw food, I fed him one meal raw and one meal kibble for 2 months and didn't have problems, but I made sure to make his one raw meal as balanced as possible. And you can bet that the day I decided that he needed more organ meat, was the day I came home to a mess on the floor. It wasn't his fault, it was mine. 

There are tons of threads on this board as well as websites that can help figure out how to make a successful raw diet for your dog. And if you ever come across a question, there are many people on here that have fed raw, and/or are still feeding raw. 

I think if you do decide to go back to raw, you should either go completely raw, or feed one meal raw and one kibble, so that you can better ensure his raw meal is what he needs. (And if you are feeding Orijen, you can most likely find raw for a comparable price... assuming you have space for buying in bulk)


----------



## Jennifer

I had fed him alternating meals of Orijen and then raw for a few days after receiving the advice in this thread. It didn't seem to make a difference. I am guessing from all that I'm reading here that the raw dog food made by the beef farmers is just not working out for Oro. They have some of that pre-made raw dog food at our health food store. I may give that a try.


----------



## GSDSunshine

It just sounds like what the beef farmers made you has too much Organ meat in it, and when everything is mixed together it becomes impossible to know in what percentages you have organs and muscle meat. 

I'm not sure where you are from (no location on your profile) but most places have a local butcher or meat processor. I have been able to find some pretty good deal shopping that way. Also, if there is any way you could get JUST beef heart, or just Beef liver, unprocessed, from your friends at the beef farmers, than they could be incorporated into your raw diet.


----------



## aubie

How well your dog does on raw hinges on learning what THEY need in their diet...what percentages of bone, muscle and organ meat they do best on. To do that, you need to know the amounts of MM, bone and OM in a mix. If you don't do a mix, you'll need a scale to weigh out each component. The Excel sheet on rawdogranch.com breaks down each into the suggested ounces for your dog.


----------



## [email protected]

When I changed my dogs to raw they did fine on the preground and mixed chubs that I purchased. When I added the chicken quarters they had serious diarrhea. It did not stop until I went to the butchers and got beef neck bones. As long as I kept up with bones for them to chew on the stool was perfect. I stayed consistant with the bones with they rest of the food and they have done fine. No diarrhea since then. I also give raw eggs and sometimes hardboiled eggs and that helps too. Dont know why. I vary the food a lot.


----------



## onyx'girl

Beef neck bones are a bit hard for a GSD. 
A Great dane, they may be fine for. I would stick with turkey necks, pork neck bones and not feed the beef ones unless you have a very strong chewer.


----------

