# Leaving your SD on a stay in a business



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

A friend took me out to lunch the other day, at a Chinese restaurant that I had been to previously with Khana. It features a buffet (which is what most people eat there). 

Both times we were seated at a table that was out of sight of the buffet table - around a little half-wall corner. It wasn't far from the buffet (this isn't a huge restaurant) but since the half-wall was there, you couldn't see the buffet if you were sitting down.

The logistics of trying to balance a plate, handle a leash, and meander around other people trying to get food seemed a bit daunting, so I left Khana on a down-stay under our table both times I was there. She was absolutely perfect and didn't move a bit (and was properly rewarded .. *L*). 

I don't really know if there are unspoken "rules" for SD etiquette. Is it improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight? I trust my dog, and even if something did happen (like someone messing with her) she would come looking for me. But under normal circumstances, in a sitation where you feel comfortable and feel that your dog is safe, is it wrong to leave her on a stay while you deal with something?

When I'm grocery shopping I often have her sit-stay while I pick through fruits or veggies, etc. and walk away from her so that I can handle the food without dealing with her leash. She is a really good staying dog - she just doesn't tend to break stays at all.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

That's great that she holds her stays regardless of distractions in so many varied environments! Her stays sound so wonderfully solid! Great work with training her, and good Khana!!

I myself would never leave a SD unattended. It simply isn't safe/fair to either the dog or the public. Anyone might slip her food (even if she usually refuses food from strangers, imagine if the one time was something you did NOT wish her to ingest?). Anyone might trip over her-- no matter how well-placed in a corner/under a table overhang she is-- if they go to wipe off a table, add ketchup to the dispenser, etc. and do not see her. Anyone might startle, scream, jump, etc-- SD handlers need to remain with their dogs, for the safety of both their dogs and the public.

How do you do a buffet, then? 

1.Off-lead heeling
2. Down-stay within eyesight of the buffet
3. Have your friend stay with her while you go up alone
Anything-- but leaving her out of your sight, without you there with her, may endanger the SD or the public.

At the grocery, a sit-stay within eyesight works for getting produce. Sometimes our hands are just busy! This is when off lead work comes into play. We just need to keep our SDs in our line of sight at all times, if not directly by our side.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I use a service dog leash, so I just drape it over my arm or around my waist, so dealing with a leash isn't much of an issue. I also wear a rucksack instead of carrying a purse, which keeps my hands free. (My SD was very good about just threading his way around people.) So I guess my first question is what kind of leash are you using? Perhaps different equipment might help.

At grocery stores, I often told my SD to wait and I'd walk away from him maybe 2-3 feet. He just stood by the cart and watched me, but it was easier for him to hang out than go from the apples to the pears to the kumquats, while I bagged it all up and brought it back to the cart. So yes, I did leave my dog unattended in that way, meaning I wasn't holding on to his leash, but he was still right near me. 

I didn't put him in a sit/stay because that didn't give him the ability to move away from someone if they got too close (a sit/stay is a *hard* position, whereas a "wait" means "hang out over here"). So he wasn't left in a vulnerable position. He also had that long GSD tail that sometimes got in the way, so standing meant that his tail wasn't in the way (which made him happy. He didn't like it when it looked like someone might step on his tail). A "wait" worked perfectly in that situation. Just because he has the obedience skills for something more solid doesn't mean that's the best thing to ask of him.


So that's what I did most of the time in stores and places like that. 

I don't think I ever left him and walked so that I couldn't see him, unless it was just for a split second (like I was walking around a large post). It wasn't him I didn't trust. It's other people. I've had too many experiences when people would approach him and do odd things while he was with me. I just don't trust what people might do if I have my back turned. He was a large beautiful GSD, and who knows what could happen, or even what someone might accuse him of doing? 

Also, my dog was an alert dog. He performed tasks, but he alerted. He needed to be near me to do that. That's a big part of the reason that I wanted him very close by. 

In your shoes, I guess it depends whether I feel my dog would be safe. I know that you live in a smaller town and probably know a lot of the citizens there. If I had that luxury, then I'd probably feel differently. 

I live in the suburbs, and where I live, overall is perfectly safe. But there are some odd folks out there. I just don't trust the public that much.


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

I have to tell you, when I first read Melanie's post I thought SD stood for Significant Dog. I was ready to move to Alaska thinking you could take your dog in grocery stores and restaurants! After I read the other posts I realized my mistake.

This gave me my first chuckle of the morning. Need more coffee!


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## JakesDogs (Jun 4, 2008)

Your need to do so is reasonable, your SD sounds absolutely well trained and trustworthy, and you are clearly trying to do the most appropriate thing in this situation.

I'm about to respond with a naysaying, doomsday, negative attitude and I do so without apology. The circumstances are different but the truth, painful as it is, does not change - It is virtually never your dog you need to worry about. There are monsters whose goal on any given day, whether sadistic pleasure or profit, is to bring harm to our pets. Like a child, a dog can speak and resist, but his only true defense against this potential harm is you.

I know a man who had the most gorgeous, loving dog you could ever want to meet. Huge and handsome, both went everywhere together - work, play, joined at the hip - if you saw one, you saw the other. So well trained a leash rarely came into the picture.

One day on a break from work, this man and his dog took a quick detour for a walk on the beach. As was always the case, the dog ran and played within sight while his master walked the sand. On this absolutely routine and typical day for both, the dog ran from the boards to the water back and forth until one time when he went to the boards and, as his helpless human watched, in mere seconds, a car parked right against the walk opened a door, summoned the dog, scooped him up and drove away. Too far to get a license plate or identify the people involved, the dog was never found and his owner never recovered from this loss.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks for the comments. It seems that overall it's just personal preference and level of comfort in their own dog's training that dictates whether or not you step out of sight of your dog in a business setting. I have a tremendous amount of confidence in my dogs, and since I train myself it's a bit different than if someone acquired an already-trained SD and had to learn how to handle it. I know how my dogs have been trained since puppyhood - I was there every step! *L*

By the way, she was completely under the table against the wall - I had scooted out that chair so that she had a place to rest. She's smaller than a GSD so it's a bit easier to fit her in. No chance of someone stepping on her - and we were at an end table, so no one next to her at a table either.

I wouldn't leave my dog on a stay and go out of sight if I felt there was any danger. This restaurant was not tremendously busy, there was no way out for her unless she came past the buffet table, and the people at tables near her had already seen her, acknowledged her presence and gone back to enjoying their lunch. I had zero fear of her having a problem, even when the waitress went over and put water glasses on the table. Khana is an amazingly calm, controlled, sensible dog. If people thought all chows were like her, they'd be switching to chows for service dogs! *L*

I'm cautious with my dogs, I love them dearly and I would be devastated if something happened to them. But I'm also confident in the training that I've given them and how they can handle situations in public. Very little stresses Khana. She's becoming more and more settled into her role as SD every day, and is just wonderful. I was at the public assistance office today and everyone was raving about her - she laid there quietly during my entire meeting, with people stepping over her and around her to get things. Her eyes were on me most of the time.

IntuitDog - I once trained with someone who lost their dog on an isolated dirt back road here in Alaska, same way .. someone came up, opened up the door, called the dog in and drove away while she was chasing the vehicle down the road trying to stop it. She never saw her dog again (a lab). I am really aware of that especially with Khana, because she's so cute and so loving that I have no doubt someone would be tempted to pick her up. But in a business setting such as the one I described, there was no possibility of getting her out unless they went past me - and to heck with my disability, I'll be a mad rabid dog if someone tries to steal my girl! *L* I'll hurt later, but at the time the adrenalin would kick in and there'd be a fight going on.

Lea, I LIKE the idea of "significant dog" .. *LOL* .. she IS significant to me. Too bad that we can't take well-behaved dogs anywhere we like, regardless of whether they're service dogs or not. If you have a dog that is non-reactive, doesn't pull you around, responds well to sit/down/stay/leave it - heck, your dog would have more manners than most kids taken into stores! 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## TerriJ (May 20, 2009)

The comments are great and remind me again about how many service dogs there are and the many different jobs they do for us that are unable. My WGSD is also my SD that is used for balance and mobility and helps me control my panic attacks. I use a short leash with a handle that I lay over her special harness when I need to pick through produce or go through the checkout. Havana was also trained by myself and she knows where she should be at what times, to back up, turn left or right or stand to support me so I may reach for large articles without falling on my face. She goes under a table at a resteraunt so far that people forget she is there and most people in this large town know and admire her from afar. 
I too love her dearly and her stays are bomb proof so if I had to I could leave her though it never has occurred. 
I found out the other day that protecting her from the crazies out there was something that only I could do for her. While shopping one night I felt Havana getting a little to tight to my side and when I looked up there was this strange dude with those new hearing things stuck in both ears and as he passed us he made it a point to rub up close to her. As he came by a second time, he reached out to snag her harness but I moved her away and asked him to leave her alone so that she could do her job. This guy just grinned and walked away. A few minutes later here he comes again after apparently following us. I had to take my stuff and leave before I was done because I was getting stressed and I knew this was not good for Havana. She kept looking at me to try to understand and I felt unable to help her with this. I thank God that she too has learned to be steady even when she doesn't understand some things and after this episode I bought a traffic lead so she will be firmly attached to me no matter what is going on. You just don't know what others may do to your dog just to make a stink.
Sorry if this got a little long, I just needed to vent and I truly don't know if I could have done something different to avoid this.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Melanie,
As a Fidelco foster, I know that we teach our dogs to sit stay and down stay, even when we're out of sight. I don't know if this is ever used by the dogs handlers, but I do know that when my pup is given the command, there isn't a treat, friendly voice, or pull on the collar that will break them from listening for my voice and recall command. When my dogs think they're working, you could put a turkey dinner in front of them and they would ignore it. It is something we condition them to do. Even on happy outings, my foster pups don't generally accept treats, minus Ilan, who has been out of the program for a few years!
If you are comfortable with your dogs training and sensibility, then I don't see a problem. My dogs would throw a bloody fit if someone tried to take them and I would certainly realize what was happening before they could get 10 feet.
Dogs who are "On Duty" are certainly different to very loyal, loving house companions. My pit mix, who is very well behaved and listens great off leash, would certainly jump in a car with the first stranger she met!
Jess


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks, Jess. Glad to hear others train this way. I am lucky to live in a small town where people are really accepting of dogs and I've never had ANY problem with "crazies" - and most people ask before trying to pet my dogs (even the kids are pretty good at asking). I'm sure that leaving a dog on a stay while you are out of sight is something that has to be taken situation by situation.

Terri - wow, I'd have been nervous too! What a strange person. And with Havana feeling your stress, it had to be hard on her too. I'll never understand why some people want to upset others, especially when it comes to physically touching/accosting. 

I appreciate all the posts. I just wasn't sure if there was actually a SD etiquette that we should all follow (I hadn't seen any anywhere, but figured I could always ask here!). I will continue to do what I feel comfortable with and deal with situations as they occur. I just hope I don't run into any of the crazies!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

In most situations I would say have a human stay at the table but there are always exceptions to any rule.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're not that far from your dog so why can't you leave
her for a few minutes?? you can see your dog so leaving her doesn't sound that bad to me. being able to leave your dog
is part of your dogs job, it's a service to you.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

For me, I wouldn't think of leaving Isa while I went to go get food at a restauant no matter how well trained she is. She has many obedience titles and her stays are rock solid but because she is large, people do tend to see her and could potentially take her if I was out of sight. Isa is very friendly and I do allow people to pet her if someone asks as she can still work and be petted but I would be to afraid that someone could take the chance in taking her. Though more then half the time when we're at restaurants, nobody even knows she's there until we leave. 
I can understand putting our SDs in stays and dropping the leash when, for example, we are washing our hands as I need to put Isa in a sit stay, using the restroom, eating our food, etc.







I've had a handful of people at stores who wanted to buy her as she looks pretty... I felt so uncomfortable.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when my dog is in a stay a stranger can pull on his leash, offer
him food, walk pass with their dog and he doesn't move. i also allow people to pet my dog. even though my dog has a solid stay with distractions we never leave him unattended. when we walk away from him one of us is watching him.

the OP could see her dog so i didn't see anything wrong with
her walking away from her dog. the OP has a Service Dog, i think it
has a solid stay.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Yes, Khana is very good at stays. I have a lot of confidence in her.

There was NO WAY anyone could have taken Khana at the restaurant - they had to come past me to get to the door. And the buffet table was actually only about ten feet from my table, and I could see the table but not the floor (where Khana was) due to the half-wall (and she couldn't see me). 

I understand why some people would be hesitant to leave their dogs on an out-of-sight stay, and I respect that. Everyone knows their own dog and what the dog is trained for/capable of. I wouldn't have left Tazer on that stay .. *LOL* .. then again, Tazer would be kicked out of a restaurant for being a disturbance! But Khana is really well-trained and I have a lot of confidence in her. Maybe it makes a difference that I did all her training myself and so I have been a part of everything she's learned? In all honesty, I would have trusted nearly all my dogs (that I've trained over the years) to hold a down-stay in this situation. Stays are a basic part of obedience in my training venue.

Anyhow, if anyone ever comes across some sort of "official" listing of Service Dog etiquette, I'd be interested in seeing it. Since SDs serve so many different purposes, I'm sure it would be challenging to put together any sort of actual etiquette listing.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Melanie, 

I did just find this:



> Quote:
> Dog stays within 24" of its handler at all times unless the nature of a trained task requires it to be working at a greater distance.



http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/Standards/AssistanceDogPublicStandards.php

I don't know anything about ADI personally. Perhaps TJ can comment on them further. 

I do know of someone that I've bumped into several times professionally that speaks well of them and their public access test on her website. But I don't know her well enough to have much of an opinion of her.


I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but if you haven't checked out this website, you might find that IAADP has some useful info: 

http://www.iaadp.org/newsletter.html

This link below is helpful to ensure that we self-trainers are meeting *minimum* standards:

http://www.iaadp.org/iaadp-minimum-training-standards-for-public-access.html

My service dog club includes IAADP membership with our regular memberships. Obviously, the board of our club thinks highly enough of IAADP to do so. 

Since I'm looking at starting over soon with a new SDIT, I just ordered a load of SD books and guides. If I find anything that's particularly useful along these lines, I'll be sure to let you know.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:In all honesty, I would have trusted nearly all my dogs (that I've trained over the years) to hold a down-stay in this situation. Stays are a basic part of obedience in my training venue.


As someone who has handled,trained and certified police service dogs for a very long time,I would advise folks to never,never leave their dog in a public place if you cannot see the dog. NO dog is 100%, trust me. Situations can come up that could cause your dog to react in a way that it never has. I can think of no reason to leave your dog unatended. The other thing to consider is the fact that if you cannot see your dog, someone could accuse the dog of showing aggression or anything else . No business is required to grant access if the dog is unruly and leaving him alone opens the door for something unexpected to happen


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomThis link below is helpful to ensure that we self-trainers are meeting *minimum* standards:
> 
> http://www.iaadp.org/iaadp-minimum-training-standards-for-public-access.html


Thanks! I think I read this stuff back when I first considered Khana as a SD. She more than meets the minimum training standards as listed. I feel so lucky to have this dog in my life.

Renee, I understand your concerns. I also feel that each situation has to be assessed on its own. If you had seen the set-up (last table, dog under table against wall, no one at nearby tables, half-wall between table and buffet table) I think you would not be nearly as concerned. Yes, it was a stay - no, I couldn't actually see her nor could she see me - but I could have certainly seen anyone approach the table, and the only exit available to Khana would have been coming past me.

It's good to hear people's opinions on this. I wasn't sure if there were "official" rules prohibiting this. The business owner was right there and she commented on how wonderful my dog was, and came over to discuss disability issues with me (her husband has rheumatoid arthritis too). So I didn't feel any pressure from the business or the people in the restaurant (others commented on how good Khana was). It wasn't until afterwards that I thought "hmmm .. wonder if that was kosher" .. *L*

Maybe I have always pushed the boundaries when it comes to my dogs, though. From my very first obedience dog, I've always practiced in public and that included out-of-sight stays. Khana has done many stays outside of the grocery store while I take the cart back in (pre-SD days). Of course, I would never do this with a dog that was aggressive in any way or if I didn't have a high level of confidence in the training they had to that point. Back when I first started training, lots of people trained their dogs to this point. 

Maybe things have changed in other places, but here in Alaska people are pretty accepting overall of dogs. Not ONCE have I had someone comment on how my dog shouldn't be in a store or a business. When I walk by children and they're telling their parents "Look! A doggie!" the parents usually respond with "yes, that's a working dog, helping her owner". Occasionally someone asks me what she's trained to do but overall I have felt really accepted.

I wouldn't want to do anything that jeopardizes my freedoms or the freedoms of others with SDs .. but on the other hand, I trust this dog to a very high level when out in public. She's an incredibly kind, gentle, loving dog and she's so darn cute that everyone is attracted to her. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: I wouldn't want to do anything that jeopardizes my freedoms or the freedoms of others with SDs .. but on the other hand, I trust this dog to a very high level when out in public.



Well, again, that is the problem my friend. Folks sometimes put way too much trust in a dog. Dogs are dogs. Our police service dogs are trained and certified to a high level and we all know that there is no 100%. there is just no reason to leave a dog out of your sight. ever. Not wise.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote: I don't know anything about ADI personally. Perhaps TJ can comment on them further.


They are an International Organization with some very good points and of course with some things that everyone doesn't agree with. I know of one organization in another country that I question highly that is currently a member of this organization but hopefully that will be rectified next year when -->

Quote from their website:
_Beginning in 2010, all Full Members (voting) of ADI must be accredited by ADI or by the International Guide Dog Federation (IGDF)._

Just as with any organization or agency, do your research on the topic that you are interested in. And remember with Assistance Dogs of any type, just because someone is a member of an organization doesn't automatically mean that they have been approved by that organization. In some cases it just means they have meet certain basic guidelines, filled their application out correctly, and have paid their dues.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203 Well, again, that is the problem my friend. Folks sometimes put way too much trust in a dog. Dogs are dogs. Our police service dogs are trained and certified to a high level and we all know that there is no 100%. there is just no reason to leave a dog out of your sight. ever. Not wise.


Yes, dogs are dogs. But trainers differ. In all honesty, the police dogs I've seen have not been trained to nearly as high a level of obedience as I train my dogs to. In fact, I had my first GSD at a home show one year (he was in training for SAR) and the K9 cop had his dog there and told me "don't bring your dog near mine, his obedience isn't that good" .. *L* .. if I had a dog trained at the level I've seen in ALL of the police K9's I've observed up here, I wouldn't leave her on an out-of-sight stay either. I don't know what level you train your dogs to, but if you're not confident in their ability to stay then I would guess that their obedience is not at the level of my dogs. But then again, my dogs are not trained to protect me and/or bring down villians .. *L* 

I kind of take offense to the "not wise" comment. Perhaps it's not wise for YOU to leave your dog on an out-of-sight stay, but that's a basic part of training for my dogs. I want to be able to drop my dog, say "stay" and know that it's near 100% likely that she will hold that stay while I deal with whatever problem has come up. And so I train for that. I agree that it's not 100%, but it's worked pretty darn good for me for the past 20 years of training dogs. In fact, in open obedience competition, a three minute sit-stay and a five minute down-stay (with owners out of sight, and dogs in a group with other strange dogs) MUST be passed in THREE trials in order to earn the title. 

And, of course, there's common sense in what I do with my dogs, too. I wouldn't leave them on a stay in the middle of a busy road, of course. But the restaurant was a safe place, and my dog wasn't in danger. And if I didn't have confidence in my dog, I wouldn't leave her on an out-of-sight stay. I don't recommend that everyone else run out and do these kinds of stays, unless they're training their dogs as successfully as I am.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... with two out of four dogs trained for solid out-of-sight stays .. the other two need more work! *L*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This wasn't even really an out of sight stay, was it? She was laying under the table, which was 10 feet away and in plain sight. While you may not have technically been able to see HER without bending down, you were within clear sight of the table, and I'm guessing she could see YOU. She couldn't have moved from under the table without you seeing her, nor could anyone have approached the table without you seeing. It's not like you were around a corner or in another room.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: I don't know what level you train your dogs to, but if you're not confident in their ability to stay then I would guess that their obedience is not at the level of my dogs. But then again, my dogs are not trained to protect me and/or bring down villians


Oh please. You are not listening. First of all. I have been training /handling police service dogs for over twenty years and I am a certifying official for the largest police service dog organization in the US. Your exposure to police service dogs is extremely limited especially in your region. I assure you,my dogs are obedient but they are still dogs,not robots. Even the supreme court acknowledges that 62% reliability in a scent detector dog is acceptable because dogs are NOT perfect. NEither are humans. Now, stop being all defensive and sarcastic and listen to what I am saying. NO DOG IS 100%. Unless of course you are the ONLY perfect trainer in the world with the only perfect dog in a region where all citizens exposed to your dog are perfect. If, so, wow. If you want to take offense to my saying that leaving ANY dog out of sight is unwise. Oh well. It is not wise. THings happen and people do silly things. If the dog is that well trained why can't you take the dog with you offleash. Does the dog heel offleash? All I am saying is that advocating this as a common practice to folks is not wise as a general rule. Now, have a discussion without the sarcasm.











> Quote: I wouldn't leave her on an out-of-sight stay. I don't recommend that everyone else run out and do these kinds of stays, unless they're training their dogs as successfully as I am.


Ok, you are perfect. Now I understand.................







Here is a little advice. Anytime one thinks that their dog is perfect, the dog will show you how mistaken you are. I promise.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: While you may not have technically been able to see HER without bending down, you were within clear sight of the table, and I'm guessing she could see YOU. She couldn't have moved from under the table without you seeing her, nor could anyone


You all are missing my point. THe point is that dogs are NOT perfect and neither is the public. I have seen folks do some bizarre things in public and allow their kids to do bizzare things. I work with folks with service dogs as well as train police k9 handlers. I am simply cautioning anyone out there that this is not a common practice and should not be. Again, this has more to do with not trusting the public than not trusting the dog


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

CassidysMom - there was a half-wall between us, so she couldn't see me. But she was safe, the situation was safe, no one could have done anything to her without my knowledge, and no one was even seated near enough to bother her. 

Renee - actually, my dog does heel beautifully off-leash. I keep a leash on her because that's what's expected and because it allows ME some freedom. She is also a dog with an incredibly good temperament as well as being tremendously bonded to me. Your opinion is just that - an opinion - and luckily I don't have to take it as fact one way or another. I, too, have 20 years of experience in training my own and other dogs. I obviously have more confidence in my ability to train and my dog's level of training than you can (or are willing to) understand. Out-of-sight stays have been part of my training regime since the early days.

Never said I was perfect - those were YOUR words. I just have confidence in my abilities as a trainer, which has allowed me to have dogs I can trust. NONE of the police dogs I've seen have had as good a level of obedience as my dogs typically do, so that leads me to believe that there is a big difference in the ability/type of training used and that obedience is not as emphasized for those dogs (in part, I'm sure, due to the other intensive training they get that I don't do with my dogs) as it is for mine.



> Quote:Unless of course you are the ONLY perfect trainer in the world with the only perfect dog in a region where all citizens exposed to your dog are perfect. If, so, wow.


Speaking of sarcasm ... 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... kind of sorry I even asked this question now - was asking if there was any protocol for SDs in public, didn't expect to get bashed for it.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Oh, and one last comment .. 

If dogs can be reliably trained to lead BLIND PEOPLE around busy streets, around strange people and cars and obstacles, why is it considered irresponsible or "unwise" to leave a dog on a simple stay while you go a short distance away to get a plate of food? Geez. This isn't rocket science. Personally I think that all dogs that are used as working dogs should be reliable enough to leave on a stay under nearly any circumstances. There's more of a probability of someone messing with a guide dog for a blind person than there is of messing with a SD left completely under a table, against a wall, with the owner just 10-15 feet away (even if they couldn't see each other). And yet no one would be "unwise" for using a guide dog.

If you're not comfortable with your dog's level of training, by all means DON'T leave them on a stay while you step out of sight. But if your dog is well-trained and the situation is deemed safe by you, then there's NO reason why you couldn't do the out-of-sight stay.

Melanie and the gang


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:I just have confidence in my abilities as a trainer, which has allowed me to have dogs I can trust. NONE of the police dogs I've seen have had as good a level of obedience as my dogs typically do, so that leads me to believe that there is a big difference in the ability/type of training used and that obedience is not as emphasized for those dogs (in part, I'm sure, due to the other intensive training they get that I don't do with my dogs) as it is for mine.


Oh, I have plenty of confidence in my abilities as do those who I train for. Our dogs have to have solid off leash obedience. I assure you training a high drive dog to engage a human,out clean and hold the person while we cuff them ALL offleash takes a lot more control and expertise than regular obedience. Our dogs have to be solid or if nothing else,law suits will ensue, HOWEVER, as is the case with humans, no dog is 100% and we all know that. That has been my only point. There is NO such thing as any dog that has perfect obedience under any and all circumstances. Nobody believes that. Under the right set of cirumstances something can happen and that is why I do not advocate anyone breaking eye contact with their dog in public. Again, you have not seen hundreds of police dogs so what few you have seen is not representative of the thousands of police and military service dogs working offleash. There is simply no comparison.







There are always sloppy handlers in any field of endeavor, but most mandatory certifications require obedience at a high level
That being said. Level of confidence has nothing to do with the fact that sometimes stuff happens and we dog handlers just try to minimize any potential liability and most of us would not advocate breaking eye contact with our dog in public.




> Quote:If you're not comfortable with your dog's level of training, by all means DON'T leave them on a stay while you step out of sight. But if your dog is well-trained and the situation is deemed safe by you, then there's NO reason why you couldn't do the out-of-sight stay.


Again it has nothing to do with confidence in my dog's level of training. It has to do with the fact that most of we professional dog handlers know that stuff happens and try not to let our egos get in the way of common sense.



> Quote:I don't really know if there are unspoken "rules" for SD etiquette. Is it improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight? I trust my dog, and even if something did happen (like someone messing with her) she would come looking for me. But under normal circumstances, in a sitation where you feel comfortable and feel that your dog is safe, is it wrong to leave her on a stay while you deal with something?


Above is your orginal post. If you did not want comments on your question why did you ask. ?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote:asking if there was any protocol for SDs in public


*You would have to look to your own program in the case of a program dog to know if they address the situation. This would not apply to you as you OT.

*Several different organizations for SD handlers do address this as saying the dog should be within 24" of the handler out in the public, but of course this is their guidance to their membership. 

*A SD must be in compliance with local "leash laws". My county states something on the order of a dog must be on leash off of the owner's property unless it is a working K-9 who can only be off leash if it is necessary for the specific job it needs to perform and then it needs to be under voice control of its handler. I know there is probably something in there about dogs in other situations such as an obedience show .... but it has been years since I looked at it. 

*There is nothing in FED. law that I can remember addressing this topic.

Whenever I was with or around a working team(s) in a situation where it was crowded and the handler could manage for a few minutes without the dog, then the dog was put into a safe area such as under a table, given the sit or down command, AND there was always someone left at the table. But in these situations there was always someone also available to go through the buffet line or whatever with the handler. I've been a _service person _for friends or the one who stayed with the service dogs more than once. 

I would also be concerned about the public perception given to those around and who saw the dog being left behind. There may be concern of some seeing a dog _left alone and not under control_ of someone holding it's leash or others wondering why someone would take a dog into the public if _they really didn't need it_. We in the SD community know that a SD doesn't have to always be within say 24" of the handler to do it's job but the general public would not understand this. For this reason alone, I would say the harm it could do in the minds of people would not be worth the slight advantage of just walking a short distance to grab something off a buffet. 

To those people who think being able to take a dog everywhere with you would be so fun and wonderful -- it isn't so. This is one small example.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: *A SD must be in compliance with local "leash laws". My county states something on the order of a dog must be on leash off of the owner's property unless it is a working K-9 who can only be off leash if it is necessary for the specific job it needs to perform and then it needs to be under voice control of its handler. I know there is



Good post. Made me think too and I shall check with the city with regard to leash laws and pass on to my SD handler friends


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ILGHAUS I would also be concerned about the public perception given to those around and who saw the dog being left behind. There may be concern of some seeing a dog _left alone and not under control_ of someone holding it's leash or others wondering why someone would take a dog into the public if _they really didn't need it_. We in the SD community know that a SD doesn't have to always be within say 24" of the handler to do it's job but the general public would not understand this. For this reason alone, I would say the harm it could do in the minds of people would not be worth the slight advantage of just walking a short distance to grab something off a buffet.


I just don't agree with that, but that may be due to the area I live in. I see no difference in leaving a dog under a table with someone else, and going to a buffet line, and leaving a dog under a table alone and going to a buffet line - at least when it comes to the public's perception. If you leave the dog with someone else, you're still without it. And being as it was just myself and my friend, I would either have had to go to the buffet line alone and leave her with my dog (meaning I didn't need my dog's help at the buffet line) or leave my dog alone and have my friend "help" me (in which case those people who think you can never leave a dog on a stay alone will be appalled - luckily they seem to be mostly on this forum and not in my reality - and I would still be without her at the buffet line).

I deal with the reality of living with my condition every day, and have trained my dog accordingly. It does me no good to have her be more of a problem to me in public than an assistance. The stay is a PRIMARY PART of dog training, to me, and Khana's stay is exemplary. To have to defend that is nonsensical in my mind. And I will say again - she was in no danger. 

I also send my dog away from me all the time to do tasks - mostly to bring me things. I would do it in public, too, if needed. Why have a dog trained for a task and then be unable to use the dog for that task JUST because you're in public? Two feet - 24" - is a very short distance. I don't adhere to a 24" limit with my dog. She's taught to be reliable off-leash to a certain standard and, in my area, people are more impressed than annoyed by seeing a well-trained dog perform a task for its owner.

No one seems to want to comment on the guide dog for the blind and the skills and responsibilities they're taught. They're put in much more stressful and complicated situations than a simple down-stay for 3-4 minutes while the owner is getting a plate of food 10 feet away. Dogs are capable of quite extraordinary things. A stay, however, is not extraordinary, and it amazes me that people want to argue that leaving a dog on a stay is not "wise". If a dog isn't capable of being left on a down-stay out of sight of its handler, then I consider that dog to be poorly trained.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote:I don't really know if there are unspoken "rules" for SD etiquette. Is it improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight?


I tried to answer using the original question as my guideline incorporating looking at that question from different sides. This same question can be asked in various ways by slight changes in the circumstances and that would possibly change the answer to some slight degree. 

All of the material that I have read with clarifications by the DOJ; speaking with individuals within the SD community; dealing with government agencies; and speaking with groups of the general public, I must say if directly asked for a yes or no answer, I would have to answer that original question with a *yes*. Yes, it is improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight while out in the public while using your Public Access rights given per the ADA Title III via the DOJ.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:No one seems to want to comment on the guide dog for the blind and the skills and responsibilities they're taught. They're put in much more stressful and complicated situations than a simple down-stay for 3-4 minutes while the owner is getting a plate of food 10 feet away. Dogs are capable of quite extraordinary things. A stay, however, is not extraordinary, and it amazes me that people want to argue that leaving a dog on a stay is not "wise". If a dog isn't capable of being left on a down-stay out of sight of its handler, then I consider that dog to be poorly trained.


 It amazes me that you asked for opinions and want to argue because you do not like some of them. I suggest you check with your locals with regard to leash laws in your region. As far as the other. I know of NOBODY handling a police service dog nor an SD that thinks a down/stay out of the sight of the handler is a reasonable thing to do. You do not train large numbers of dogs. Those of we who do know that NOTHING is 100% and we choose not to tempt fate. If you want to believe that your dog is perfect,that is your privilege. Again, you asked for opinions and received them. I see no reason to keep beating this to death


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I have to jump in here again.
I don't have 20 years of training guide dogs, but I have raised 6 pups, and I have to say, we train a sit/stay or a down/stay out of sight of the handler.
Is it ever used, I don't know. But it is a really good command to have very solid.
Police dogs are NOT general service dogs. Their drive is much higher, and their tolerance level is much lower. Fidelco also donates to the police, and my current foster may be going down that path.
Would I leave her in a stay in a public place? **** no.
Would I walk away from one of my guide pups? Yup, if I thought they could do it. Not all of them can, and this is ok too. It's why we train the handler to work with the individual dog.
This argument has become much too generalized. I do believe that individual dogs can be left 10 feet away, if the dog is comfortable in it's job, and the handler is confident in the dog's ability.
If this was a 12 year old child we were talking about, and you left the table to replenish you food 10 feet away, would this be an issue?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote: I don't really know if there are unspoken "rules" for SD etiquette. Is it improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight? I trust my dog, and even if something did happen (like someone messing with her) she would come looking for me. But under normal circumstances, in a sitation where you feel comfortable and feel that your dog is safe, is it wrong to leave her on a stay while you deal with something?


These are the questions that most have been respondig to. Somewhere along the line it has turned into a question of an individual dog being trustworthy on a stay. 

Again, if the handler feels comfortable in trusting their dog to stay, trusts the public not to bother their dog, trusts that the management of the restaurant will not question that this dog is in fact a SD or that you really need to have your dog in their place of business, if your local laws allow the dog to be "off leash" in a public place, if the other customers do not complain, then by all means just disregard those people with opposing thoughts.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Renee, I didn't have a problem with anyone's opinion until you got rude. Then I had a problem. 

For your information, I HAVE worked with thousands of dogs - I started teaching obedience back in the early 90's and have taught hundreds of classes, and have met with many many private students. My experience is certainly NOT only with my own dogs, and is probably with a greater number of breeds/types of dogs than your experience. Don't discount my level of ability. 

If you don't like that the topic is being "beat to death", then simply don't respond to my posts. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

BJDimock - glad to see there are others out there who understand the value of a well-trained, reliable dog! I can't believe how under-trained some dogs must be if you can't do a simple out-of-sight stay. Heck, like I said, in competition the dogs must hold out-of-sight stays in groups with strange dogs (and strange people). I would expect any dog that is considered a SD (or a police dog!!! how many times on Cops and other TV programs have we seen poorly trained police dogs, who don't out on command and are frantic and nearly out of control?) should be trained to at LEAST the reliability found in Open obedience. That means heeling off-leash, recalls, drops on recall, retrieves, and yes - out-of-sight stays. 

I respect that some people wouldn't want to chance it. But those who have trained to that level should be able to expect it of their dogs. 

Melanie and the reliable group in Alaska


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: If you don't like that the topic is being "beat to death", then simply don't respond to my posts. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.


Same goes for you. STOP with the catty comments. Again, I suggest you do what Ilghaus suggested. You have no expertise in police service dogs and that is not what this thread is about. You are being argumentative and downright silly
Unless this thread can turn into a more informative one without the catty stuff, I will close it.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: This argument has become much too generalized. I do believe that individual dogs can be left 10 feet away, if the dog is comfortable in it's job, and the handler is confident in the dog's ability.
> If this was a 12 year old child we were talking about, and you left the table to replenish you food 10 feet away, would this be an issue?


That is not what the discussion was about. The original poster wanted to know if leaving an SD in a down/stay OUT OF THE HANDLER'S SIGHT was acceptable. Many of us do not think so. The problem is that there is NO such thing as a perfect dog. Anyone that thinks that is not facing reality. The main problem is first of all, as Ilghaus brought up, the person is most probably violating the leash laws which does not look good for any dog handler and secondly, as Ilghaus and I brought up, one cannot predict what the public might do. There just is no reason to do it. My bomb and cadaver dogs work very very far away offleash when working and under control, however, I would never never let my dog out of my sight for any reason.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:If this was a 12 year old child we were talking about, and you left the table to replenish you food 10 feet away, would this be an issue?


 Well, let me tell you a story. A few years ago a young girl and her parents were at a local antique mall. The child was not out of their sight ever, per se, however, she was playing in the grass and the parents were talking with friends. They would glance over,and check on her. One time they glanced over and she had disappearred. Myself and other officers searched all that day and night knowing in our hearts,what we would probably find. She was found the next day. I will not get graphic but she was dead. So, in answer to your question. GOD NO. The guy had been stalking her and waiting for that few seconds of opportunity to snatch her away. My point in this whole thread has been that we cannot predict what the public might do to a dog and what that dog's reaction might be to it. IF the dog is out of sight, stuff can happen as with children. It has nothing to do with how well trained the dog is. Stuff happens and that is life


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

But we're talking about a building in which I would be blocking the only exit.(10 feet away.) I guess I'm a pretty crummy parent too.
I would leave my 10 year old at the table. I trust her. She knows to scream. She knows every sensitive part on a person to bite or kick. She knows how to place a key in her fist and aim for the eyes or throat.(I have been known to leave the keys in her hand.) It sucks raising kids like that, but some of us really do look towards the worst case scenario.
If someone could take my daughter without her alerting me in that situation, than I'm not sure how much more I would do.
My SD fosters are much more leary about strangers, and they have a tendency to scream louder and defend fiercer if they think someone is forcing them away from their handler.
There are crappy people in the world. People are kidnapped, raped and murdered every day. Maybe we should all just stay inside.
I won't live life that way. I can teach my daughter how to defend herself, but I won't make her live that way either.
And if I have faith in the dog I've trained, I would feel no issue about giving a command and walking 10 feet away. I am absolutely within hearing and scent distance of the dog, which will reinforce the command.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote:I don't really know if there are unspoken "rules" for SD etiquette. Is it improper to leave your dog on a stay and go out of sight?


I hope everyone has had time to put in their opinions on this question. Again, rules and etiquette was the question. So on that note I am going to close this thread as it is indeed way past the point of serving any purpose.


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