# stressed dog with aggression toward husband



## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

This evening, my 4 yo male (who has always been a huge baby and very good) snarled at my husband when he grabbed his collar to bring him inside. We always grab him and make him come, it has never been a problem before.

We got a 9 month old GS male yesterday and the older one hates the little one so far. 

Is it better to just keep them apart for now? That cant go on forever, they have to learn to get along. I need some advice on how to get them to get along. 

I am worried about a dog fight too. What is the best way to break up a dog fight? My husband is going away for a week, and I will be here with a household of little children. :|


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I hate to say it but this may not be the right household or the right timing for the pup you adopted yesterday. Things sound a little chaotic from your other posts and unfortunately you've joined the board over the weekend when board activity can be low.

Right now everything needs to just slow down! For you, your existing dog, particularly the new addition.

Typically a "two week shutdown" is recommended for those in your situation - I have not had the need but I understand the theory and it's worth looking into.

If you continue to force these dogs on each other you will absolutely end up with fights and disharmony.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sadly even I admit to be seriously taken aback by this??? The fact that the op says they've always grabbed the dog by the collar to get him in the house, that kinda says a lot about a lack training, unless I'm missing something?? 

Under this type of ... loose "Structure" unless a lot changes fast in a few months time those dogs will most likely be fighting??? The new puppy not that big a deal, the dog snarling at the owner not good but it happens. Not good but that can be changed with well training rules and structure and a "Drag Leash" so there is no need to grab a collar to well drag the dog indoors. But now ... the new dog does not like the puppy and there will be a houseful of kids????

It's all just not good ...


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

The best way to break up a dog fight is to not allowing it to happen. Both dogs should be crated and brought out individually until you can bring in a trainer who understands GSDs. Not your local pet dog trainer. Contact an IPO club for a recommendation.

They do not *have* to get along. They may or may not. But forcing them to be together won't accomplish your goal. There is no power on earth that will make two dogs like each other who don't. Two males is not the ideal combo. A male and a female would be a better choice.

TBH, I would not have suggested that you get a second dog until you have the first trained.

In any case, you MUST keep them crated separately for now, you can't risk a dead dog.

I have to agree with the PP that this doesn't really sound like the ideal time to introduce a second dog into the family.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Sadly even I admit to be seriously taken aback by this??? The fact that the op says they've always grabbed the dog by the collar to get him in the house, that kinda says a lot about a lack training, unless I'm missing something??
> 
> Under this type of ... loose "Structure" unless a lot changes fast in a few months time those dogs will most likely be fighting??? The new puppy not that big a deal, the dog snarling at the owner not good
> but it happens. Not good but that can be changed with well training rules and structure and a "Drag Leash" so there is no need to grab a collar to well drag the dog indoors. But now ... the new dog does not like the puppy and there will be a houseful of kids????
> ...


If two dogs want to fight, having one of them on a leash is the worst thing you can do--if you pick up that lead and use it to restrain that dog. The restraining will only increase the dog's aggression by frustration.

The need here is for two crates and an expert trainer.


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Sadly even I admit to be seriously taken aback by this??? The fact that the op says they've always grabbed the dog by the collar to get him in the house, that kinda says a lot about a lack training, unless I'm missing something??
> 
> Under this type of ... loose "Structure" unless a lot changes fast in a few months time those dogs will most likely be fighting??? The new puppy not that big a deal, the dog snarling at the owner not good but it happens. Not good but that can be changed with well training rules and structure and a "Drag Leash" so there is no need to grab a collar to well drag the dog indoors. But now ... the new dog does not like the puppy and there will be a houseful of kids????
> 
> It's all just not good ...


no, im not saying we always grab him by the collar to get him in. He is a very laid back good boy. The only discipline issue we have had with him is is desire to chase a cat up a tree no matter what we do. We got him to stop chasing chickens, but cats seem to be a joy that is uncontainable. Im saying that if needed, we have grabbed him by the collar in the past to lead him and he has never growled at my husband. He has come with no problem.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Reading comprehension is a thing.

@ Marinemom19 - I think you should work with a rescue to find the 9 month old a home. You have your 4 yr old that is having issues accepting the 9 month old. You have a houseful of kids. You have a 9 month old that has been jerked around to several homes and is exhibiting SA.

I know you want to do what's right by this young dog. I know your heart goes out to him. But with all you have going on, and the circumstances with your current dog, I think the pup needs to go to a place where they can really work with him without having to deal with outside circumstances.

And cats...yeah...they squeak when their heads are stepped on.


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

Fodder said:


> I hate to say it but this may not be the right household or the right timing for the pup you adopted yesterday. Things sound a little chaotic from your other posts and unfortunately you've joined the board over the weekend when board activity can be low.
> 
> Right now everything needs to just slow down! For you, your existing dog, particularly the new addition.
> 
> ...


Today I am employing the pups crate and baby gates to keep the 2 apart and begin the 2 week shut down. 
I am the mother of a US Marine and 7 other children, I think I can manage getting 2 dogs to eventually co exist!

4 years ago we got our first GS. The people gave him to us at 4 weeks old. Lets just say they did not live up to the standards of puppy breeders that most here expect. It was predicted on this forum that he would be the worst puppy in the history of puppies and dogs. He in fact has been such an amazing dog, I have no doubt that he will eventually adjust to this situation. He is tolerant of anything. 

To my defense, this little 9 month old GS was really suffering. I knew that he had gone from a home with children and other dogs to a home where he was alone all day tied out on a lead. He was barking and crying all day, according to the lady who has had him for the last 3 weeks. My heart went out to him and I just had to bring him here to relieve him of his misery. I know how much a GS needs his pack. I just forgot that introduction to the pack needs to take some time. He is a good boy, we are peeling back the layers of doggie trauma and he is really showing us his smart side. 

Through my own fault I threw them together and just hoped they would get along. My 4 year old GS has never had a problem with another dog, male or female. He has always got along, even when another was agressive toward him, he just submitted and walked away at our command. He has been raised with another dog, and our 4 year old GS was always the submissive one. The old mutt friend we had when he was a pup died 2 months ago. This new pup was raised with 2 goldens, and he got along well with them. 

I had hoped the 2 would just love to play, but I think it will take time, and some studying on my part. I homeschool my children and this week we have off, so it is mom's week to do her own schooling on dog introduction methods. 

Yep, we can do this!


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Reading comprehension is a thing.
> 
> @ Marinemom19 - I think you should work with a rescue to find the 9 month old a home. You have your 4 yr old that is having issues accepting the 9 month old. You have a houseful of kids. You have a 9 month old that has been jerked around to several homes and is exhibiting SA.
> 
> ...


you and I think alike! I already contacted the GS rescue the day I got him home, in the event that he does not work out for our family. I just cannot send him back to where he came from. Ill be out some $$, but this little guy is just to sweet and smart to let him go back on a lead all day.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There is total satisfaction in knowing you did right by an animal. Work with the rescue and get him in to an appropriate home. 

I'm out hundreds on a couple of dogs we've taken in and rehomed. And another several hundred on this Husky we have now plus there will be more. It happens but these animals deserve better.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

You get what you pet. When you give attention for separation anxiety what do you think happens? The behaviors are reinforced. Add to this a mature male GSD who is jealous and getting itchy on the trigger finger. Do you know how to safely break up a dog fight? It really takes two people. See Leerburg on Breaking up a dog fight. I am afraid for the safty of your children. Yes it feels good to try to help but be realistic, this is not the right time or place. The dog needs the full attention of an experienced person with no other distractions


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

I just brought home a 6 mo old puppy to my 4 year old male GSD. I started just walking them together on leash (two people). It was clear Milo was not impressed with my decision to adopt the pup, but overall from what I had observed he is good with other dogs, so I hoped for acclimation. Then I walked the dogs, pup on leash, Milo free. Worked well. Milo is a fetch fend and that superseded the presence of the pup. 

Some suggest allowing the older dog access to the crate where the new dog is. I tried this twice but the pup acted in a very aggressive+ sort of ballistic manner so I nixed that. I did not want him displaying that type of behavior towards Milo. My "separate-er" was a glass french door so they could see each other when the pup was loose in his part of the house. He was definitely more comfortable looking at Milo when he did not feel constrained. After a week or so, they were allowed together in the house, but for 5 mins. As soon as I sensed tension on either dog's part I separated them again. I increased this gradually always making sure* food and toys* had been removed. They are now loose in the house together all the time (for the past 4 days) but the pup has been here three weeks on Wednesday, so I took it slow. And frankly the pup has been diagnosed with pano so he has slowed down a LOT. So might be kind of cheating. 

My older dog does not really interact with the pup, but that is fine by me. It might come over time. The important part is they are co-existing peacefully.

Getting the pup in the crate was brutal. He would rear up and wrap his paws around my restraining arm. I had no choice but the physically force him in. And then he had a lot to say about it for a while. At the suggestion of members of this board, I found a treat that he loved and supplied it only in the crate. He does not love being crated but goes in easily now.

You have to remember these guys are confused and leery. The bouncing around can not be good for them. But time does heal...

I followed bits and pieces of 2 week shut-down dependent on my observation of his behavior. 

I don't have advice about your older guy but that would be disconcerting for sure. Maybe he is not the steady eddy you thought you had and is a bit confused too with the new arrival. I am sure other members will chime in. I definitely would reinforce your older fellows training (also suggested to me by members of this board) and go right back to zero regarding introductions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Marinemom19 said:


> no, im not saying we always grab him by the collar to get him in. He is a very laid back good boy. The only discipline issue we have had with him is is desire to chase a cat up a tree no matter what we do. We got him to stop chasing chickens, but cats seem to be a joy that is uncontainable. Im saying that if needed, we have grabbed him by the collar in the past to lead him and he has never growled at my husband. He has come with no problem.


OK that bit is at least explainable, the dog has a Cat "issue." He was in "drive" and your husband interrupted him by grabbing his collar and he showed his displeasure. He could have gotten bitten but he did not so that much is good ... best to use a different approach going forward for that issue.

The dogs haven't fought ... so that's good and you do get credit for considering the "possibility" before the fact! I never did, that did not work out to well. 

Crate and Rotate is the simplest solution but a better approach is to keep it from happening in the first place. Get a muzzle for the one and both dogs need to be Crate trained. During the two week shutdown which should be done with both dogs ... I'd strictly limit any unsupervised activity together. Walks together during that time with the one muzzled "should" be fine. There is more and it's lots of work and I don't have kids! 

Oh well enough for now and to "specifically" answer your question ... here you go (warning graphic images of dog bite victims.) :
Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

I want to give everyone some good news regarding my pup and dog dilemma. 

I stopped forcing them to be together and removed all food and toys. I let them both have access to co exist on our first floor and employed baby gates to separate them when Tarsus got stressed. Mostly they just laid in separate corners. 

I read about shutdown, but pup HATES his crate during the day. He will go in there on his own, but if you shut the door he cries pitifully. He sleeps in there all night with the door shut no problem, but there is something about the activity of the day that makes him not like it. He follows me around like a shadow. I dont need a belt and a leash to keep him attached to me, he is seriously at my heels all day long :smile2:

By Monday evening they were ON THEIR OWN ACCORD laying next to one another in my school room :grin2:


By Tuesday evening they played with each other for about 5 minutes, and it was initiated by my 4 year old shepherd!!!!! 

This morning, they were scrapping together out in the snow! 

We got a bunch of Cesar Milan to beef up on our education. This was how my son raised and trained out 4 year old, so i figured he is such a good boy, we would continue with that for the pup. I had never watched much, but just took the bits and pieces my son told me about as he learned. 

The girls and I watched a bunch of episodes last night. We have agreed to stop petting him when he does the pitiful whining thing and instead give him the "hand bite" and mentally tell him to calm down that pack leader is in charge. I have made it a point this morning to direct my energy in to being calm and being the leader. Im pretty good at that from having 8 children :wink2: And you know what, the little guy already gets it!

pretty cool! So I think all and all, things are looking up. As usual, the problems we had were caused by the humans not knowing how to treat a dog like a dog and respect how a dog views the situation, for both our 4 year old and our 9 month old. 

I dont foresee a dog fight at this point. I foresee humans continuing to learn how to think like a dog and lead the pack with confidence and strength.


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

To funny. Guess my guys are a little slower then yours. My 4 year old has tried to initiate play outside for the past couple days (three weeks today!) but the pup is having leg pain problems so I cannot let it happen. Hopefully he will be over this soon...

Congrats on the boys getting along. It is a huge issue in determining how your life with the two dogs is going to go, at least for the foreseeable future and I know, a huge relief when you get over that hump.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That is great news. However, do not let your guard down, esp. regarding 7 kids! It takes about 4 - 5 weeks before the true dog emerges after being re-homed. Keep an open mind until that time is over. I hope you can see the difference between relaxed play (role reversal) and pushy play. Are you finding the time to work with both individually? Are they supervised when they are together?


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Sounds like you're making good progress!

I would just be vigilant and I would also be wary of getting too deep in Cesar Milan. Some of his stuff is fine. Setting rules and boundaries, keeping your emotions in check, etc....But his alpha/dominance stuff is controversial. Something to think about.


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> That is great news. However, do not let your guard down, esp. regarding 7 kids! It takes about 4 - 5 weeks before the true dog emerges after being re-homed. Keep an open mind until that time is over. I hope you can see the difference between relaxed play (role reversal) and pushy play. Are you finding the time to work with both individually? Are they supervised when they are together?



Yes, i have made contacts with a few GS rescues in my state just in case. 

Could you link me to information about relaxed play and pushy play? It seems like both are happy to be doing it. But no, I dont know the difference and would like to learn.

The only time they are not supervised is when they go out to the backyard to do their thing.


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

Dotbat215 said:


> Sounds like you're making good progress!
> 
> I would just be vigilant and I would also be wary of getting too deep in Cesar Milan. Some of his stuff is fine. Setting rules and boundaries, keeping your emotions in check, etc....But his alpha/dominance stuff is controversial. Something to think about.


Regarding me being the pack leader? Do you have a link that may briefly explain peoples objections to it? I would appreciate it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Marinemom19 said:


> Could you link me to information about relaxed play and pushy play? It seems like both are happy to be doing it. But no, I dont know the difference and would like to learn.
> 
> The only time they are not supervised is when they go out to the backyard to do their thing.


relaxed play; one chase the other and reverse roles. Loose body movements without posturing. Wide open mouths, relaxed eyes.

Personally I would never let them out by themselves until that initial period is over and they have proven themselves together. Read up on dog language: Turid Rugaas has some good books


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Marinemom19 said:


> Regarding me being the pack leader? Do you have a link that may briefly explain peoples objections to it? I would appreciate it.


Well this isn't brief but it's a good read when you have the chance...lots of different viewpoints:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/677970-alpha-over-humans.html

My main issue with alpha and dominance in the common usage is that people often think back to wolf packs. But so much of our info on Alpha wolves stems from studies done on captive wolves in packs that were thrown together. 

The other problem is John QP will use it as a crutch to blame misbehavior on the dog and not themselves. They impose this scenario where the dog is scheming to usurp their throne...when really the dog is just testing boundaries, or bored, or knows that being annoying enough = cookie. 

Just remember: You have control over everything that is good in this dog's life. Sounds pretty top dog to me.

It also depends what you mean by pack leader...I imagine you are saying that you're setting up rules and limitations (like a parent)...that's great. Some people just take it too far.

Anyway, I think you're getting a handle on the situation. And I am glad he found you!


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> relaxed play; one chase the other and reverse roles. Loose body movements without posturing. Wide open mouths, relaxed eyes.
> 
> Personally I would never let them out by themselves until that initial period is over and they have proven themselves together. Read up on dog language: Turid Rugaas has some good books


That does describe how they were playing. My 4 year old would bite his neck and then go down on his front paws like he was saying "get me" The 9 month old is more of a tail biter, so he would get his tail and back and forth they would go. 

ok, I do have 2 fenced yards, so that should never be a problem to keep them separate. 

Thank you for the book recommendation. I will look for that author today.


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## Marinemom19 (Jan 21, 2017)

Dotbat215 said:


> They impose this scenario where the dog is scheming to usurp their throne...when really the dog is just testing boundaries, or bored, or knows that being annoying enough = cookie.
> 
> Just remember: You have control over everything that is good in this dog's life. Sounds pretty top dog to me.
> 
> ...


Dog ownership is much like sensible parenting, Rules and limitations. Dont give the annoying or naughty child what they want or it will teach them whining wins. Same with poochie. 

I really appreciate how Cesar Milan wants you to understand how a dog thinks and not be a typical american "doggie mommy" with a fur baby. 

Don't worry, i'm no crazy weirdo who needs to get a power trip on a poor dog. :smile2: You be good, you obey the limits, you bark and tell me someone is here, you tolerate children, you are a good boy!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dogs don't need an "alpha". In feral pack, the leader is fluid. Dogs that behave like "alpha's" or bullies are basically ostracized and banished. They need consistency in the rules. If you want to think of yourself as the leader, that's ok . Dogs need fairness. Dogs need a release to play.

I'm not a Cesar fan but he is good at setting rules and consistency in theory. It's his methods that make me cringe. 

I like The Naughty Dogge blog. Love her thoughts.
Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee | Dog Training and Dog Obedience Victoria BC

And there are a ton of good articles here as well. 
Dog Obedience Training - Beth Bradley


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> That is great news. However, do not let your guard down, esp. regarding 7 kids! It takes about 4 - 5 weeks before the true dog emerges after being re-homed. Keep an open mind until that time is over. I hope you can see the difference between relaxed play (role reversal) and pushy play. Are you finding the time to work with both individually? Are they supervised when they are together?


 Four or five weeks would have been ideal! I found it was more like 6 or 7 months! Zero issues for 6 or 7 months and then all "He11" broke lose???? :surprise:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

zetti said:


> If two dogs want to fight, having one of them on a leash is the worst thing you can do--if you pick up that lead and use it to restrain that dog. The restraining will only increase the dog's aggression by frustration.
> 
> The need here is for two crates and an expert trainer.


My reply was directed "specifically" at the dog that snared at the husband becasue he grabbed the freaking collar! 

I "thought" that was pretty clear ... apparently not??


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