# No Stick Hits in the FCI Championships!



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

So I hear on another forum that the FCI is going to ban stick hits in the upcoming championship and will likely vote them out completely in 2017. I have heard rumblings that the SV (being the gutless organization that it is) has been looking for an excuse to do the same.

Not only this but the I also hear that there will soon be a ban on member dogs being trained with E Collars, that will involve titles being stripped and dogs not allowed to breed for 2 years. 

Cant say I am shocked but as IPO is the most common Bite Sport in North America I have to admit that I am sincerely saddened. I have really enjoyed my recent foray into this venue and it does not look like there is anything meaningful that will replace it.

Ring: Not enough clubs or interest more Mal oriented
PSA: Very cool, not enough clubs or trials
SDA: Next to no clubs

I truly hope that the North American IPO organizations will draw a line in the sand and split form the SV but I know thats a pipe dream. 

We all know the stick hits where more a formality then true pressure but its the principle and I think the begining of the end when it comes to IPO. 

Its to the point where you might as well take up dock diving and call it a day as it will be just as meaningful as an IPO title.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Blitzkrieg do you know why? 
Just curious. Bill


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have heard the same. Not supprised, schH has been getting watered down for a while now. 

Start training SDA! You don't need to be affiliated to hold a trial. There aren't really any "affiliated" clubs, no organization dues, just training, trialing and fun. Let me know if you want more details.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

There are various technical excuses but the long and short of it is many Western Euro countries have allowed the Animal Rights activists to influence legislation and public perception of dogsport (which is quite big over there). 

So the SV and FCI have been on a campaign to make IPO more palatable to the uneducated masses as well as appease the AR idiots and the legislators that are being pressured by them. Its a losing proposition but unfortunately they seem determined to continue on this path.

Lets not forget that the SV and FCI are ruled by the all mighty show dollars that have no vested interest in tests that put any kind of pressure or expectations on the dogs. Just go through the formalities and stamp the dog appropriate for breeding thank you very much.

I think ultimately bitework will be banned in many of those countries..


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I have heard the same. Not supprised, schH has been getting watered down for a while now.
> 
> Start training SDA! You don't need to be affiliated to hold a trial. There aren't really any "affiliated" clubs, no organization dues, just training, trialing and fun. Let me know if you want more details.


How do they judge and award titles then?


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Sad! Bill


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

FCI ruins all kinds of stuff. The best lines of malinois aren't allowed to compete in fci events the nvbk ones. They're freaking monsters.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> How do they judge and award titles then?



Anyone can hold a trial. However every trial must have a certified judge and decoy(s). The last SDA trial I was at brought in two decoys (including myself) and a judge. Other than that, the group just trained off videos, website and talking to SDA people about any confusion. That group is now hooked and hosting two trials a year.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Anyone can hold a trial. However every trial must have a certified judge and decoy(s). The last SDA trial I was at brought in two decoys (including myself) and a judge. Other than that, the group just trained off videos, website and talking to SDA people about any confusion. That group is now hooked and hosting two trials a year.


Intersting I am going to look into this further, thanks for the info!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Just because the trial will become watered down doesn't mean that you cannot test your dog with real pressure in training. I think that people who are interested in producing serious dogs will still make sure that the dogs they breed are well tested despite what is happening on the trial fields. I know that we have put a lot more pressure on my dog in training than he will ever see in a trial.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Never a bad idea. Accidents do happen too. Decoy might step on the dogs paw or whatever. Dog needs to be trained to stay in the fight.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

robk said:


> Just because the trial will become watered down doesn't mean that you cannot test your dog with real pressure in training. I think that people who are interested in producing serious dogs will still make sure that the dogs they breed are well tested despite what is happening on the trial fields. I know that we have put a lot more pressure on my dog in training than he will ever see in a trial.


But the issue is that the title no longer shows the ability of the dog beyond a very low bar. 

That and soon enough if you are seen putting real pressure on your dog you'll be banned anyway


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And the AR's are getting their way again....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

robk said:


> Just because the trial will become watered down doesn't mean that you cannot test your dog with real pressure in training. I think that people who are interested in producing serious dogs will still make sure that the dogs they breed are well tested despite what is happening on the trial fields. I know that we have put a lot more pressure on my dog in training than he will ever see in a trial.



I'm sure a lot of us train differently than what you see at a trial. But at what point do you ask, whats the point of the trial?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm sure a lot of us train differently than what you see at a trial. But at what point do you ask, whats the point of the trial?


I understand that a trial may be becoming pointless for many people. For me, its just a fun goal to work towards. An event to prepare for and nothing more. Both my dogs will trial eventually. However, If it came to a real life situation, I know I will be able to trust one of my dogs, more than the other. This comes from what is exposed in training, not trialing.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right. Trials to a certain extent say more about the trainer than the dog. You know in training when you have an ok dog vs a good dog vs a great dog. There are still non fci protection sports out there that are not so watered down.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm sure a lot of us train differently than what you see at a trial. But at what point do you ask, whats the point of the trial?


Exactly the trial bar is now even lower hence it loses more of its value. I can train PP with a few local dog people why even trial? It should be a chance to showcase your dog and your training. The last trial I went to the stick hits were solid and audible. You could see the pressure affect the dogs in minute but noticable ways. This sport is on the road to being just another event your going to pick a BC to do.. Like I said soon the title wont mean anything more then a dock diving or agility title.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I have asked for the official email, information, post on official FCI (Europe) website, etc. There is nothing that states this. 

Waiting to see this . None of the FCI judges we know have received, been notified of this,,,,,,


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> I have asked for the official email, information, post on official FCI (Europe) website, etc. There is nothing that states this.
> 
> Waiting to see this . None of the FCI judges we know have received, been notified of this,,,,,,


its lighting the interwebs on fire... shouldn't be hard to confirm. believe Frank Phillips already confirmed on facebook


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Hunter.

I know it is lighting up FB. Saw all the posts this AM. 

Asked the question there: I have asked for the email from the FCI (Europe) or a link to where it is posted officially on the FCI web-site.

FCI judges in Europe have *not* received any official confirmation from the FCI on this. It has been in discussion. 

If a final decision has been made, great. If it is still in discussion, note it as such.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> Hunter.
> 
> I know it is lighting up FB. Saw all the posts this AM.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't expect an answer... they say on the main page with a splash "Questions to the FCI Secretariat from private individuals

The FCI General Secretariat would like to remind that the FCI staff is not entitled to answer questions from private individuals, but only from the national canine organisations (NCOs), since the latter are FCI members, whereas private individuals are not (they are members of the NCOs). Any question should be sent to the national canine organisation which you depend on; the latter will then turn to the FCI General Secretariat for enquiry, if necessary. In any case, they will provide you with the appropriate, official response.

The contact details of all FCI members are available on the FCI website"


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

. I was not contacting the FCI directly. We spoke with FCI judges in Europe; nothing decided, nothing received with an official decision.

One would expect that an official announcement would entail notification to the FCI judges, post on FCI web-site and official email to member clubs, including the AWDF.

With the lack of that, this is another "what if" scenario


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I'm surprised to see that the push for this came from Europe.

I guess that just goes to show how little I know about this stuff.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Mrs k was warning about the AR people in Europe.

I stumbled across mentions of changes when reading up on tracking rules/titles. As I skimmed through the articles looking for tracking info....I noticed this particular aspect.

The change mentioned was using the term 'stick pressure' instead of 'stick hits'. 

I was wondering how or if that would translate in the trials .....






Merciel said:


> I'm surprised to see that the push for this came from Europe.
> 
> I guess that just goes to show how little I know about this stuff.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

It's got less to do with AR people and more to do with making it easier to breed dogs. Since Germany has IPO1 as a requirement to breed and get proper paperwork on a dog, breeders HAVE to get IPO1 on their dogs in order to breed them. If you have an excellent animal you want to breed, but during training it can't take a stick hit or take that pressure...its kind of to your benefit to get that taken out of the trial. Contrary to what we like to talk about here, many people currently see an IPO title as a speed bump along the way to breeding your animal. We like to pile on the ASL people in the United States, but the truth is, the SL people in Germany are just as bad when it comes to the way they feel about titling their dogs, the only difference is that its a requirement there.

In the US we just get around this by not needing an IPO to breed in order to get full registration...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Lifted another place

"Schutzhund is Over in Europe
Beginning in 2014 there will no longer be stick hits in the FCI IPO championships, and stick hits will disappear from the sport within two years. The Europeans will lower their gaze and submit, again. Bringing further shame on themselves, individually and collectively. This is about subservience, about crushing the human spirit, about emasculation.

When they banned the cropping of ears and docking of tails, those who did not
do so did not notice, did not care, thought that it did not involve them.

When they banned the prong collar and the radio collar, they thought they could pretend that it was a formality, could be evaded.

When the courage test eliminated the pursuit and turn, more truly testing the dog, they acquiesced.

When they noticed that the attack on the handler revealed the weakness of so many of their show dogs, they eliminated it.

When the vertical wall became too difficult for the evolving extreme structure of the show line German Shepherd, they eliminated it.

When the nanny scolds decried the stick, they padded it.

When Schutzhund transformed into IPO, the die was cast. Why did this happen? Why did the SV give up the legacy of von Stephanitz? Because this is exactly what the SV leadership wanted, the emasculation of the German Shepherd so that they could sell pathetic show dogs without the public shame of the trial field.

The FCI is a show and pet dog organization, and what we see before us was preordained. Working dog affairs are in the hands of show and pet breeders, and their agenda is to trivialize and emasculate us.

Furthermore, the SV is no longer a working dog organization, no longer holds to the values of the founders, of von Stephanitz.

The SV leaders have their thirty pieces of silver, why do they not weep and hang themselves?

For Americans, this is the moment of truth. Our European idols have revealed their feet of clay, their shame, their weakness.

But there is a silver lining.

This is the opportunity for the American working community to arise, to set aside the shackles of European subservience, to stand together and conduct American working dog affairs by and for Americans.

If we fail, there will not be another chance. The opportunity is before us, and if we do not seize it then it will be our shame, our weakness that denies us the legacy, the heritage.

We must resurrect traditional Schutzhund, by and for Americans, and take responsibility for our own heritage, our own dogs.

And we must remember out debt to our real brothers in Europe, those whose spirit remains free, who refuse to submit in their soul even though they are shamed on their sport fields.

We must welcome our European brethren to come to America and participate in a real Schutzhund championship, to pay homage to the founders on American fields because European fields are denied them.

Free at last. But free to be weak and fail as well as succeed.

Our fate is in our own hands, failure would be our own shame.

Jim Engel, Marengo , February 5, 2014 © "

Schutzhund Over


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That may be, Martemchek, but the general consensus I heard and read of the change from Schutzhund to IPO was due to increasingly negative public perception of SchH. It could be a combination of factors, AR people, that it is also "training dogs to be mean" and other PR problems.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> .
> 
> One would expect that an official announcement would entail notification to the FCI judges, post on FCI web-site and official email to member clubs, including the AWDF.
> 
> With the lack of that, this is another "what if" scenario



Sue

I was initially told by Pierre on Tuesday, he was told by FCI working commission because they are hosting the FCI world championships. I called Al and he called Frans Jansen. Frans verbally confirmed to Al that the decision is made and that there will not be stick hits at the FCI world Championships starting this year. It is only the world championships at this point. The reason given was that for FCI (all breeds) IPO is a sport not a breed suitability test. Some countries already do not have stick hits and it's more fair if all do not get hit at world championships.

It is up for discussion to be in the 2017 rule change but that would have to be voted in. I also have not seen an official notice but have had it verbally confirmed by FCI working commission president, twice and by Pierre Wahlstrom one of the organizers for the Worlds in Sweden this year.

I seriously hope that the proposal gets voted down in 2017 and stick hits stay. If not I hope the WUSV/SV decides to keep them (because in my opinion it can not be a breeding test without them) ....

As always, all countries can have variances to FCI rules. USCA is already gathering information and investigating options to keep them in our events no matter what happens with the rest of the world.


Frank


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> Lifted another place
> 
> "Schutzhund is Over in Europe
> Beginning in 2014 there will no longer be stick hits in the FCI IPO championships, and stick hits will disappear from the sport within two years. The Europeans will lower their gaze and submit, again. Bringing further shame on themselves, individually and collectively. This is about subservience, about crushing the human spirit, about emasculation.
> ...



I know nothing about what some of you obviously have quite a passion for as well as much knowledge.

However, I know enough by reading this thread that what was, might not be..... 

Another classic example of lowering the bar/ catering to the weakest link and an overall wussification of what once was a noble pursuit. I could see this happening in the USA since we allow "others" to protect us from ourselves but I am a bit surprised Europe would be that spineless to change a sport which has existed for decades if not centuries.

Oh well, another example of the minority/whiners getting their voice heard...nothing like rule by minority.....geeeeezzz


SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

SuperG said:


> I know nothing about what some of you obviously have quite a passion for as well as much knowledge.
> 
> However, I know enough by reading this thread that what was, might not be.....
> 
> ...


 
Trust me its worse in western Euro countries, has been for a while. I said it a while back and people jumped all over me. Its a slippery slope and they are in full slide. Luckily in Canada dogsport is very low profile and most AR idiots here dont even know they exist.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you, Frank, for coming in and clarifying things for people.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Frank,

Thank you for the update.

What we heard this AM from a few FCI judges in Europe was that is has been and was being discussed (the note about the 2017, since it has to be done a few years in advance), but nothing official had been decided and they had not received anything in writing.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Smithie86 said:


> Frank,
> 
> Thank you for the update.
> 
> What we heard this AM from a few FCI judges in Europe was that is has been and was being discussed (the note about the 2017, since it has to be done a few years in advance), but nothing official had been decided and they had not received anything in writing.


Hi Sue

yeah that is what i was told also...It is being "discussed" for the 2017 rules. That would require a vote to be implemented and of course USCA could (and I believe will) have a variance to that rule if it passes....


as for FCI World Championships? It is now announced on the Event FB page...

ABOUT "THE STICK PRESSURE TEST" 
Because we have over 10,000 followers, and several are from another country, 
I write this in English, 
Regarding "the stick pressure test in IPO" 
result of the FCI working dog commission:
The stick comes i...n FCI 2014 World Cup, only to be used as a threat, no dogs will be hit by the stick. 
This is NOT for other IPO trails, ONLY in FCI IPO World Championship
Note, this is not a decision that Sweden has taken, this is a decision from FCI WDK.



Frank


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so boycott the event...US can show their distaste by not participating.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is always ringsports ya know...


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Frank,

Thanks! You know me, I am a stickler for documentation!


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Is it likely it will be voted out in 2017, and was there no vote on the issue of stickhits in this years championship, a few people just decided this? Which countries don´t allows stickhits in EU, switzerland I think but isn´t that the only one?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Oxymoron: if you have an excellent dog( Meaning German Shepherd) that can't take stick hits....lol...makes no sense to me whatsoever.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In other words, for Europe and SV, the inability to tolerate stick hits is a disqualifying feature of passing an IPO 1, which is a necessary requirement for a German Shepherd to be breed worthy. Just like having certified hips is necessary to be breed worthy. So it's laughable for a dog to be excellent minus the ability to tolerate stick hits. It's like saying the dog is excellent, though the dog is dysplastic ( for breeding). Therefore, if the European powers are going to move the bar to allow dogs like this to be bred, then there is really no reason to look at titles as a requisite for breeding.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> In other words, for Europe and SV, the inability to tolerate stick hits is a disqualifying feature of passing an IPO 1, which is a necessary requirement for a German Shepherd to be breed worthy. Just like having certified hips is necessary to be breed worthy. So it's laughable for a dog to be excellent minus the ability to tolerate stick hits. It's like saying the dog is excellent, though the dog is dysplastic ( for breeding). Therefore, if the European powers are going to move the bar to allow dogs like this to be bred, then there is really no reason to look at titles as a requisite for breeding.


I'm starting a new sport. Since Schutzhund gave way to IPO, I'm starting Schutzhund back up with oldschool rules, and start awarding Schutzhund titles again.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I wouldnt overplay this. To me shutz titles are just a minimum guideline, it really doesnt mean much. If they take some hits out of the test then it wont matter, if you see a dog in person youll be able to tell if its a good dog. If you really think that stick represents danger to the dog then see it get hit with a stick outside the competition. Stick hits IMO are irrelevant as its a very weak attempt at aggression towards the dog. Id think flipping the dog and attacking it aggressively/smothering/choking would be a true test but im clueless. The stick hits were a formality that looked like abuse to dog lovers but really wasnt any test at all. Its mean, but for stick hits to be a test youd have to beat the dog hard with the stick, otherwise its just some fake test anyways.

I do get where some are coming from, titles used to mean something. But now you just have to do more research on hte individual dogs. With the internet the good dogs should have some vids and stuff to show off at least. titles arent worth much.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

To caveat off of Frank;

I received and email yesterday from my club president through the USCA that stick hits will remain. The explanation from the FCI was that stick hits will be removed from international Competition so that countries that don't allow stick hits or gun shots will still be able to compete but that individual bodies can keep the stick hits.

It was that USCAs opinion that Schutzhund is still breed test and not just a sport.
I can copy and paste the email if you everyone would like.


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