# Is it a training issue or just crazy dogs?



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I just read a story about a woman in CO that was attacked and killed by her own two pitbulls. For the trainers or anyone else for that matter, when you hear of these situations (as often as we do) do you think it is a training issue? Mental issues with the dogs? Lack of leadership? I don't get it...how do dogs attack the hand that feeds them? Seems counter to their survival. 

Wonder if there were any indications in this particular case...


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

eddie1976E said:


> I just read a story about a woman in CO that was attacked and killed by her own two pitbulls. For the trainers or anyone else for that matter, when you hear of these situations (as often as we do) do you think it is a training issue? Mental issues with the dogs? Lack of leadership? I don't get it...how do dogs attack the hand that feeds them? Seems counter to their survival.
> 
> Wonder if there were any indications in this particular case...


I always assume its all of the above.
Back a couple years ago when I was first talking about getting a GSD. I was working with an old painter on this house. I mentioned to him I was looking at getting a GSD he looked at me and said "Are you crazy". I chuckled and said maybe, but why do you ask. He had this story about an old boy he knew who had a GSD locked up out back in a kennel. One day the guys daughter came on from feeding the dog and said the dog had growled at her. Next day she came in with the same story. Went in to feed dog. Dog was acting aggressive and growling. Next day the father told his daughter he would go out and feed the dog. well when he entered the cage the dog attacked. Darn near killed the guy. ripped half his face off 80 something stitches. A lot of older people or people older than me (41) around here assume all GSD's are killers. I chalk it up to owners trying to assert dominance over their GSD's with physical force. Or just tying the dog out back and doing nothing with it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

We tend to come up with excuses for these. But you never hear of, let's say, a Collie killing its owner. I know of two Rottweilers who killed their owner when he had an epilepsy seizure. I think that dogs with fighting genes are always riskier than any other breed.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It's hard to imagine someone's dogs actually killing them.I will have to agree with cd.They all had some serious problems.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> We tend to come up with excuses for these. But you never hear of, let's say, a Collie killing its owner. I know of two Rottweilers who killed their owner when he had an epilepsy seizure. I think that dogs with fighting genes are always riskier than any other breed.


Rotts are a far distant #2 in mauling and killing people.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> It's hard to imagine someone's dogs actually killing them.I will have to agree with cd.They all had some serious problems.


Today it has become commonplace for dogs that kill to target owners and family members. That was not always the case.

Most serious attacks also used to take place off property, not so today. Most occur in the home or the owner's property.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Today it has become commonplace for dogs that kill to target owners and family members. That was not always the case.
> 
> Most serious attacks also used to take place off property, not so today. Most occur in the home or the owner's property.


 I think that now more people own dogs that have this tendency. I also believe that 40 yrs ago if a family had a dog that showed signs of aggression that dog was taken out back and shot. Now everyone wants to rehabilitate the dogs. 
Hard to say really. Maybe every incident is different and their is no pattern or rhyme to the reason. But I still think it is a rise of people owning dogs who are by nature aggressive. And soft or just lazy humans not getting the proper training. Or being able to see that spike is a dog not your kid.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

cdwoodcox said:


> I think that now more people own dogs that have this tendency. I also believe that 40 yrs ago if a family had a dog that showed signs of aggression that dog was taken out back and shot. Now everyone wants to rehabilitate the dogs.


Putting human emotions on dogs, treating them like their "babies", etc. all contribute to this I think. I'd like to believe that I would be one of those people that wouldn't tolerate any bad tendency from my dog and would be the guy who humanely pts a dog. These dogs should be eliminated from society, there are plenty of great dogs sitting in shelters waiting for a good home. The only silver lining (if there is one) in this case is that it wasn't a next door neighbor kid getting killed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> I think that now more people own dogs that have this tendency. I also believe that 40 yrs ago if a family had a dog that showed signs of aggression that dog was taken out back and shot. Now everyone wants to rehabilitate the dogs.
> Hard to say really. Maybe every incident is different and their is no pattern or rhyme to the reason. * But I still think it is a rise of people owning dogs who are by nature aggressive.* And soft or just lazy humans not getting the proper training. Or being able to see that spike is a dog not your kid.


The bolded, the stats don't support that at all.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Crazy I think some loose wires crossed. I think it's the makeup of the dog. The dogs environment is a factor to a degree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A few years ago, a vet tech in the south had a cane corso and other dogs, and agreed to babysit another cane corso. They killed her. 

I think there is a mixture. People tend to not act like the human and treat the dog as a dog. I don't think that causes aggression in dogs, but if the aggression is there, then the dog can have blurred lines. But definitely, people want to be huge dog whisperers. They have a pack of dogs and they want them to run together and all be lovee dovie, with each other. They call them brothers and girl friends, etc., giving more humanness and expecting behavior to be more human. "Don't you hurt your little sister..." 

But anytime you have two dogs together there is the potential for dogs to fight. If they fight and you try to get them apart, they may redirect their aggression onto the human. And if one starts attacking the human, the other, the other may join in and attack the human too. Because see, even if they were squabbling, the dogs are a pack. We aren't pack leaders. That's a lie. The dogs are smart enough to know that we aren't dogs. If we were dogs would be killing people left and right. Lots of dogs will take an opportunity when the pack leader is ill or injured to attack them. Could you imagine dogs attacking humans to take over the pack? 

Really, we AREN'T pack leaders. We are more like gods, and the dogs are like subjects -- critters who can't understand or completely communicate with their gods. Who do not resemble their gods. Who cannot compete with their gods. 

So why does a pack member attack a god? Well, pack drive. The weaker pack member will follow the pack leader. And if the pack leader is diverted -- redirected aggression, onto the human -- something he really doesn't understand, god/human, someone that provides food and gives direction/demands obedience, and for rewards or to avoid punishment, the dog obeys, and attaches himself to. But in a fight the dog is fighting for his life. And when the anger/aggression is redirected, the animal attacks the human, and finds the human weak. Could have been a weak leader in general. Hard to say. But the dog attacks the human, who makes noise and at that point exhudes fear pharamones. And other pack members join in, because they are following the pack leader (dog).

And yes, some breeds are inherently more aggressive, and likely to be fighting amongst themselves, and if they do attack a human more likely to kill.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I read these things and often wonder the same thing. I know people say dogs are dogs, but I just could never see any of mine killing me. 

I sometimes think when it's more then one dog in these situations that maybe there was a fight between the two dogs and thd owner got caught in the middle? I've gotten bit that way before and it can do some damage. I know that the couple times it happened to me they backed off as soon as they realized they bit me. Maybe in these cases the dogs redirected and didn't back off?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Another issue is that as a trainer you will lose your business if you recommend putting down a dog nowadays. A few years ago a young family with a 5 month old Pit pup called me because it had attacked their 9 year old son in the face. That pup was plain dangerous and tried to go for my face, was lunging behind a baby gate, trying to get to me. The boy was very much afraid of the dog, the mom loved the dog and the dad hated it. He asked me what I would do and without thinking about my reputation I told him flat out that I would put him down. Then I found out that the local pet store (the fancy one) believed the rumors that I just tell people to put down their dogs when they have problems, any problem. 
So.....lesson learned and I never tell them this anymore (have done this 2 times in the 15 years I am in business) but give them so much information that I hope that they themselves come to this conclusion if a dog is that dangerous. Unfortunately, accidents may have to happen first. I wish there was a more realistic way of looking at dogs for who they really are. Actually it is a miracle that not more people get killed by their own dogs if you realize what they have to endure sometimes (the dogs).


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Some dogs are just nuts. They attack humans unprovoked and lack normal inhibitions against attacking their owners. No amount of socialization or training is going to fix a dog like that.

If you look at how reckless the breeding of some breeds, including those prone to aggression has become, it should hardly be a surprise that we see genuinely vicious dogs.

And if you tell me a Cane Corso killed someone, forgive my lack of shock. It's completely beyond me why a non expert dog handler would get one of these dogs. Worse, some thoroughly unethical and irresponsible breeder sold the dog to unqualified buyers. 

Truly crazy aggressive dogs need to be put down. As a PP correctly pointed out, the shelters are full of wonderful dogs. Let the insane ones go.


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## Aristo (Jul 23, 2016)

Inbreeding is a big problem for these unscrupulous backyard breeders who also sell these large dogs who need an experienced confident human to anyone with the cash to buy them. People need to do their research about the specific breed they are interested in before they bring the puppy home and get over their heads when the dog is 100 pounds and won't lisren to you. Maybe an orientation class should be required before people are able to purchase certain high risk breeds.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, the stats don't support that at all.


 Just the fact that since 1950 there is something like 5 1/2 billion more people on the planet. Leads me to believe that their is some truth to it. Even if the percentages are the same. It would 
still be a much higher volume. 

Could also be that if in 1950 a dog in Newark mauled its owner a guy in Akron Indiana never heard about it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Just the fact that since 1950 there is something like 5 1/2 billion more people on the planet. Leads me to believe that their is some truth to it. Even if the percentages are the same. It would
> still be a much higher volume.
> 
> Could also be that if in 1950 a dog in Newark mauled its owner a guy in Akron Indiana never heard about it.


Anything is possible, reporting was probably not as accurate back then. Today, you probably hear more due to the internet. 

However, looking at the numbers from the just last couple of decades when reporting fatalities was mandated and tracked by the CDC dating back to at least the 70s, dog bite related fatalities have escalated from the very early 2000's from consistently being in the single digits to double digits approaching five or six times higher then average previous years and the the trend is increasing. 

Although the population in the US has increased over those decades, it nowhere compares to the rate of increase of fatalities. The population increase has been approximately 30% while fatalities have increased from an average of five deaths per year to 35 deaths in 2014 and 34 in 2015, nearly a whopping 700% increase.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

People's lives have changed (working long hours), training methods have changed, anthropomorphism has skyrocketed (we dress them for heaven's sake).


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sometimes I think we are all going a little mad...something in the water. The plastic, I don't know. There really are drugs in the water supply, I think. I think they have proved that. I will try to look it up.

Seems like the kids aren't right anymore either? ALL have a mental health diagnosis? So many just failing to exist on any level despite any amount of help offered them...?

But then parenting has changed too....


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok lol just so you know I am not paranoid...found the EPA study where they tested for like 50 pharmaceuticals and most samples had at least 25...

Cant link on the tablet though


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Seems like the kids aren't right anymore either? ALL have a mental health diagnosis? So many just failing to exist on any level despite any amount of help offered them...?



I'm betting those kids existed "back in the day"...we just didn't have a name for it. We told them to stop being weird and moved on. Meanwhile they suffered in silence for the rest of their lives. 

Or worse we institutionalised them. Many of our old mental health facilities, some still operating into the 70s-80s, were rife with physical abuse, neglect, and treatments that were inhumane and or ineffective.

Like someone said earlier, dogs are given chance after chance these days. Some deserve it but it gives aggressive dogs more opportunity to attack. And then, we should also remember that we only know about bites that have been recorded. In the past, it may not have been required and so you end up with skewed data.


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## brookwoodgirl (May 5, 2016)

Is it really true "The shelters are filled with wonderful dogs"?

In my area, the shelters are filled with pit bulls and cane corso dogs. The shelters call them "terrier mixes". The shelters - in my area - are not really filled with wonderful dogs. Those that aren't pit bulls or fighting dogs go very fast with too many people looking for a "wonderful" non pit bull dog.

As for backyard breeders abounding and practicing inbreeding.... really? Sure, when I was growing up, there were "backyard breeders", if you mean that there were more people who bred their pet dog. I don't think they practiced inbreeding any more than the breeders who excessively line breed. 

Most of the people who are backyard breeding today are pit bull owners. When I was a kid, in the neighborhoods you would see irish setters, rough collies, old english sheepdogs, all kinds of breeds that now seem to have disappeared in favor of pitbulls. Plus the mix a poos/malts/yorks - but they can hardly be inbred, given they are all - at charitable best - cross bred dogs. 

When there were what I considered true "backyard" breeders, they were family pets who at least had *that* temperament test going for them. And an important one it was, however popularly discounted now. 

Now it seems the greatest number of dogs available are pit bulls that were bred for the worst reasons and end up in shelters as "wonderful dogs" that need saving, puppy mill dogs (who are often inbred when they aren't mix a malts) and dogs from "good" breeders, who often pursue breeding a higher performance working line dog (GSDS, dobermans, etc) that the average family with kids where both parents work can't give enough exercise or training to handle. 

Now it is socially unacceptable - and most people couldn't handle anyway - breeding a dog. But it seems to me that what we have instead are dogs that aren't primarily bred or selected to be family pets. Yes, I know working line dogs can be great family pets, but I see plenty of working line dogs who just have way too much energy and drive to have been placed in the families they are in. The alternative is often dogs that are less suited to family life than the old neighborhood backyard breeders. Now what is in these homes are pits, working line dogs, or puppy mill dogs. In trying to solve the dog overpopulation problem, it seems to me another has been created.

I think too much crating also is an issue. A crate today is often, to me, what a fenced back yard used to be, or a chain, - a place to neglect a dog. When I hear about how dogs who spend a working day and a night crated love their crate, I think about abductees who spend years in a closet or box and forever after, end up sleeping in a closet because its the only place they know and can feel safe. Dogs can love a crate because it is a quiet oasis in a busy household. But if they love a crate because they have been crated day and night and spend 16 hours of 24 in the crate, then I can see how they can be a bit crazy. 

A dog doesn't learn much in a crate. In the past, where often the mother was home all day with the pup, and kids were around (more kids too), dogs were more socialized to people. They were also less highly bred from working lines (and less bred from fighting dogs like pit bulls) and thus less high strung. I'm not saying anything against working line dogs, except that they are - rightly - bred to work, and that may be too much dog for the average 2 working parent family today who, when the parents aren't working, shuttle their kids from activity to activity. 

Re the woman who was killed by her two dogs, they were pit bulls, so bred to fight, and probably had a pack mentality so if one started, the other would go along. And she obviously hadn't trained them. Would she have been better with two "backyard bred" setters or collies, even if they were similarly untrained? I have to say I think so. 

But the pack mentality in dogs can be scary. On a personal note, my neighbor has five dogs, most of them GSDs. They seem to be outside all the time and the owners don't seem to spend much time with them. This is an owner BTW, who got her dogs from "good" breeders, where she was on a waiting list for some time. Three of her dogs got loose and ended up in my yard, across the stream from me and started after me. I was probably 150 feet from my house and I truly feared for my life with three large dogs stalking me. I backed up very slowly and made it in the door, probably because there was a bank down and up from the stream that provided a "barrier" to them. When I called the owner to get her to reclaim her dogs, and said the dogs had stalked me, growling and snarling, she found it hard to believe because these were her "good" dogs - she had some she knew were aggressive but not these. Yet they were fence aggressive, barking and lunging at anything across from their fences. When they found themselves over the fence, they had the same temperament. Any dog in a pack is more dangerous. But also, what dogs are in those packs and homes, how they were bred and trained, and how suited they are, by breeding and training, to be in those homes, is also, to me, pertinent.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Positive Only Training, people owning or adopting dogs they have no business owning, shelter dogs that should be put down being adopted out as pets. Not knowing when a dog is safe around children or not. Not understanding when a pet dog has crossed a line and the owner has lost control, or never had it. The big one, the same problem people have with their human children, assuming that the social culture knows more about dogs than their owners do. If people learned to use their instincts and trust them, they would never have a seriously out of control dog or child. The social culture doesn't believe in punishment or corrections. Would any of us put up with a dog biting a family member in the face? 

Years ago, I was at a park and a dog bit an 8 yr old boy in the face. The boy's grandmother who owned the dog, started shouting at the boy, who had done nothing wrong. I tried to help, even offered to remove the dog from the area so she could calm the child. It was not going to bite me. I was told to mind my own business. It was a nasty, jagged slice in his cheek. I ran up to the park director to get first aid help and when we got back, the boy and grandmother and dog were gone. It was a small dog, not an "aggressive breed." To me, that was child abuse. I don't know the outcome, but that dog should never have been around the child again. If I had to guess, the boy was blamed, the grandmother kept the dog and it may have bitten someone else again.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My brother and sister in law have a beagle/dachshund mix, that left a pretty good gash in their son's face when it was a puppy. Kid was about 5. They didn't know what Michael did to it, so.... 

Then when the kid was about 8 he was sporting another wound in the face from the dog. 

At one point, the mailman would not deliver to his house. 

When the dog was 13 or 14, it bit my sister's younger daughter, 4 years old, in the ear. To be fair, I was there the night before, and my sister said the dog would be so happy when she put the kid to bed. I asked why. She said, that Gwen won't leave the dog alone. So I walked into the other room, and said loud enough for my sister to hear, "Didn't that dog bite Michael twice?" My SIL said, "only once." Whatever. 

My sister broke her head open and her husband took her to the ER, and I was coming home at 2AM and got stopped for my turning signal out (New Year's Eve), and I was not shocked at all when my mother told me the next day that Tiger bit Gwennie in the ear. 

What shocked me is what Larry, her father, said about it. He blamed the almost 4 year old kid!!! I wouldn't be so freaked out about that, but this is the guy that told me that he would KILL Cujo and and every dog in my kennel if Cujo bit him. He was drunk and being an idiot to my parents, and Cujo was my mother's dog. Whatever. If it is a small mixed dog, then it can do what it wants, and everyone will make excuses for it. If it is a pointy-eared German dog, then KILL IT AND EVERY DOG RELATED TO IT!!!!

Really the dog's owners, and the kid's parents were both more to blame for that bite than the old dog. And, yes, you can argue that that is child abuse. This mother was the one that screamed at her kid, "DON'T TOUCH THAT DOG!!!!!" so loud and screechy it scared me, and the kids, all four of them were just walking Babsy with me and my sister. I asked her if she wanted her kids to be afraid of dogs. She said "yes. " And after that, my brother's dog has 100% access to her kid, bites the kid, and everyone blames the kid. 

That was almost two years ago, and you can see that I am still peeved about it.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Anything is possible, reporting was probably not as accurate back then. Today, you probably hear more due to the internet.
> 
> However, looking at the numbers from the just last couple of decades when reporting fatalities was mandated and tracked by the CDC dating back to at least the 70s, dog bite related fatalities have escalated from the very early 2000's from consistently being in the single digits to double digits approaching five or six times higher then average previous years and the the trend is increasing.
> 
> Although the population in the US has increased over those decades, it nowhere compares to the rate of increase of fatalities. The population increase has been approximately 30% while fatalities have increased from an average of five deaths per year to 35 deaths in 2014 and 34 in 2015, nearly a whopping 700% increase.


You can find reports of fatalities going back to before 1900 - it is just time consuming, and is usually just a paragraph in a newspaper. Some of them are very interesting to read! I was sent some web page once with links to them all, and wish I could find it again now to share.

It is interesting how the CDC stopped tracking the fatalities.

But you made the point I wanted to make - how the fatalities are rising at a very uncomfortable number. Also, as another person mentioned...more and more of these dogs killing people were pets. More and more cases involve distraught relatives trying in vain to save the victim once the attack starts. I think anyone who owns a dog needs to listen to the interview a mother of a boy named Beau who was killed by their family pet Kissy Face of nine years. It is chilling, and perfectly drives home the "you never think it is your dog that will put its teeth into something". That video was eye opening for me - I totally related to her, in a way. 

But to address OP: These stories are becoming much more common. So common, that they only make the news if someone dies.

It is difficult to get a truly accurate picture or any answers as to these stories or statistics. Both sides of more biased and defensive than an abortion debate...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Irie said:


> You can find reports of fatalities going back to before 1900 - it is just time consuming, and is usually just a paragraph in a newspaper. Some of them are very interesting to read! I was sent some web page once with links to them all, and wish I could find it again now to share.
> 
> It is interesting how the CDC stopped tracking the fatalities.
> 
> ...


The CDC still does track fatalities. However, despite the CDC's findings in their official report that pit bull types were the number one breed involved in fatalities with Rottweilers coming in a far distant second, the CDC came to the conclusion that breed does not matter and has stopped tracking breed. Go figure.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

_"But the pack mentality in dogs can be scary. On a personal note, my neighbor has five dogs, most of them GSDs. They seem to be outside all the time and the owners don't seem to spend much time with them. This is an owner BTW, who got her dogs from "good" breeders, where she was on a waiting list for some time. Three of her dogs got loose and ended up in my yard, across the stream from me and started after me. I was probably 150 feet from my house and I truly feared for my life with three large dogs stalking me. I backed up very slowly and made it in the door, probably because there was a bank down and up from the stream that provided a "barrier" to them. When I called the owner to get her to reclaim her dogs, and said the dogs had stalked me, growling and snarling, she found it hard to believe because these were her "good" dogs - she had some she knew were aggressive but not these. Yet they were fence aggressive, barking and lunging at anything across from their fences. When they found themselves over the fence, they had the same temperament. Any dog in a pack is more dangerous. But also, what dogs are in those packs and homes, how they were bred and trained, and how suited they are, by breeding and training, to be in those homes, is also, to me, pertinent."_


Back in the 70s I lived in the sticks in NH. We all opened our doors and just let our dogs out. It drove the police and rangers nuts. They would remind us that "even little Fluffy, in a pack, can attack and take down a deer. We do have leash laws".


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think part of the problem is the constant barrage by the internet and press on muggings, killings, rapes, robberies, etc. that the general public hears on a daily basis. This lead to almost everyone thinking the world in general is a dangerous place to live, be it small town, city or country. Years ago you didn't hear everything that happened unless it was in your area. People become afraid and go out and buy a protective breed of dog to make them feel safe. As someone pointed out, we all work longer hours, and many on top of that are involved in after school activities or after work activities and don't want/bother to train or socialize the dog(s) they get. It's a throw away society, if it doesn't work out, throw it away and get another. A good number of the people who get these dogs, besides not training or socializing them, shouldn't have that type of breed to begin with. They basically end up with a dog that's a loaded pistol with the safety off and they have no idea what they have or what to do with it. They buy the cheapest one they can find from people who are in it for making money. It becomes a circle that repeats itself over and over. For many years I ran the foster care and hot line for two Parishes (counties) and you wouldn't believe what I saw and listened to. 


One example was an MP on Post who got a Doberman for protection for his wife. One day he had a friend of theirs go to the house and pretend to attack the wife. The dog stood there confused. The MP was furious as the dog didn't protect his wife and wasn't even able to be walked on a lead. Training? No, none had been done, after all, it was Doberman, they should do it all instinctively. I never knew a Dobe or any dog learned to walk on a lead instinctively. I tried to explain the wife wasn't afraid and so the dog had no reason to protect her. And it was only nine months old. I picked up the dog, tied by a three foot chain to a telephone pole. The 6'3" foot MP told me I'd never be able to walk him to the car. I was 5' and a hundred pounds. The Dobe tried to take off with me and I held my ground and the dog flipped himself. The Dobe then walked at my side never leaving my knee by more than six inches. He was an awesome dog that I did some training on and then placed him with a family that knew what to do and how to handle him.


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