# The line fine between in-breeding and line breeding?



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

So this is a general question, not just about GSDs. Mostly because in addition to the GSD, I love Lancashire Heelers. I have been on the search for a female to hopefully import as a foundation girl. The breed is very rare and is actually listed on the "vulnerable breeds list" in the UK. The UK breeders are very reluctant to send dogs to the USA, for some reason they think that all American breeders are puppy millers, sigh. So I'm having to look in Sweden, Finland, Norway and the like to find a pup. The breeders are all up in arms about "inbreeding" and caution strongly against it since the gene pool is so small. My problem is that if I don't at least linebreed 4-4, 4-5 or in that range I will NEVER find a female to breed with my male. Of course, every GSD in my house is linebred someway or another, most in that range, not anything closer IIRC. I don't see this as a huge issue, especially in the case of a breed that is nearing extinction!
So where is the point at which one becomes the other? Is there technically a point at which linebred is actually inbred? Just trying to learn a bit more here.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I've always heard the old saying....when it goes right, they call it line breeding, when it goes wrong, they call it in-breeding.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Thank you for posting this, I've been curious myself.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I believe that anything closer than 2-3 (or 3-2) is inbreeding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I line bred Odessa's last litter 3-3 on Pakros. In that litter, which came early and did not survive, was a puppy with a deformed tail. Perhaps 3-3 is too close. 

I think the Germans allow 2-3 breeding. There really is no difference between line breeding and in-breeding, except that inbreeding is closer relatives. It is all inbreeding. But beyond a certain level it makes less of a difference. Considering diversity, a 2-2 would mean only three grand sires instead of four, 3-3 would have 7 instead of 8, 4-4, 15 in stead of 16 so it makes sense that 4-4 would not nearly be a detrimental as 2-2. In any case, one should choose wisely on whom one line or inbreeds to.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Nothing to add, but those are cute little buggers!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Likely they are cautioning you against inbreeding because they are trying to maintain some genetic diversity within the breed. When you have a low number breed, it gets to where every litter counts if any of the puppies go on to be bred. Although to be honest, if the breed is really nearing extinction they are likely all fairly inbred at this point anyway.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi, there! We consider inbreeding anything closer than 4 x4. So, a 4 x 4 breeding would be linebreeding.

I have found in my personal experience (with horses) that inbreeding can REALLY lock in potency. I had one inbred mare (2x3) that whoever I bred her too she consistently passed on her balance and type. Now, she was a train wreck..small, loss of vigor, loss of athleticism. However, when I outcrossed her all her kids were stunning and strong in all the areas she was weak. The important thing is that I outcrossed her but she was so inbred that she threw certain traits on a consistent basis.

Now, my mares that were not linebred or inbred were less consistent producers but good specimens themselves.

The thing with close inbreeding is that you will double up on strengths but also weaknesses. So, you better know what bad stuff is in the lines as it has a great chance of popping up! 

I have no problem with inbreeding or linebreeding but you need to outcross the next time before you can bring the line back in. Linebreeding is much safer. 

Sex balanced linebreeding is even better.......

I think you are way safe with a 4 x4 or 4x5 linebreeding! Good luck...cute dogs!! But, sheesh wouldn't a cardigan corgi save you a lot of work!! hehehe


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Thanks all for the input. Sorry I haven't posted sooner, I'm having the worst time with my internet for some reason and can't get pages to load, etc. 
Well I found a breeder in Sweden with a litter expected late winter. She will be sending me a pedigree which I will load into pedigree database. 
As to Corgis, I like them, but find they are huge compared to the LH. Also, the temperament of the LH is pretty different to the corgi. I love Corgis, but you'd have to meet a LH to see why I love them. 
Here's a video of my male last winter. We have a creek on our property and he has learned not to go in when all the big dogs are around. There is one area where a tree fell over the creek and he uses that to get to the other side, it drives the GSDs nuts and they all try to follow him on the log but of course they fall before getting halfway.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

And here's a video just 3 months later taken at the same spot. Sargeant is trying his best to keep up with Ron, the male GSD, and Uma, the GSD pup is trying out the creek for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=XLuz5Mkm9nk


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

Cute videos!!!!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

ninemaplefarm said:


> Sex balanced linebreeding is even better.......


I've never heard this terminology before--what do you mean by "sex balanced linebreeding"?

Christine


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You say the SV allows 2-3 line/in-breeding. Would you personally do a 2-3 breeding?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I personally think 2-3 is too close.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

selzer said:


> I personally think 2-3 is too close.


I think it's also important to see what sort of linebreeding is *behind* the parents. A 2-3 breeding on a dog with no linebreeding is quite a different beast than a 2-3 breeding on a dog who is already heavily linebred.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Lloyd Brackett recommended "the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam on the dam's side". Or in other words, a 2-3 breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Andaka....to set type...yes!
@Blackthorn....you are sooooo right about a 2-3, having to have the linebreeding BEHIND the two dogs assessed; in making the decision. A decision to breed a 2-3 from an open pedigree, is much much different than a 2-3 from both dogs being linebred already. Then you also can have one parent in the 2-3 that is linebred and the other isn't...or you can have a 2-3 on parents that are heavily backmassed but may not have a linebreeding on either of them in first 4 generations. All of these scenarios will do certain things, and many breeders never consider these aspects, and if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses(especially weaknesses) of the linebred/backmassed dogs, it really doesn't mean anything, if you do recognize it.:help:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Sadly, there is not much likelihood I assess the dogs behind the linebreeding except through pictures. On a good note, I found a breeder in Sweden whose stock is from the lines I have been looking for. If she sells me a girl, then I will have at least 2 males in the U.S. that are good possibilities. I think the 4th generation will the the closest there would be 1 relative in common. The breeder in Texas who is running into the same issues as I am is also on a search, so at least there are 2 of us who are on this mission.
Just emailing back and forth with the breeders who will talk to me has been an education. I didn't realized how influential the 3 breeders were that all died within the last 18 months. The 3 of them combined produced over half of the total number puppies for the breed each year in the UK from what I can gather. There were only 37 puppies registered this year, whereas 3 years ago the numbers were around 80. Not a lot compared to the GSD for sure, but it was a huge blow to the breed. 
I am going to do further research on the pedigrees, especially looking into the linebreeding behind what I've found.


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