# Fight Drive and Detection Work



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We were doing some dog training at the police department (detection ) - they have a wall with a bunch of holes in it they use and it was very interesting.

Anyway - I already know my own dog has been discussed as not wanting to fight but would if pushed (and that would have kept him (out) of being a patrol dog, but I wonder about the next dog if it is a trait I should or should not worry about for a single purpose cadaver dog. This officer likes to see fight drive in a detection dog. 

So this is what happened and what he said about fight drive.

Teammates 18 month old was very exciting, high pitched bark and flipping around. When he launched on the tug he wrapped his front arms around the police officer during the fight for the tug. His dog is primarily WGWL but I don't know pedigree.

My 8 year old dog who did some minimal bitework training before I got him and who mainy plays ball for reward how because my shoulders are shot and after he knocked out some teeth.......was very different. Stood still, tail slow wag, low pitched bark at the police officer, but when he hit the tug he did not fight per se - he just pulled back very steady with his legs and back and did not let go. My dog mainly Czech/DDR

Both dogs were equally intense on GETTING the toy when it was thrown out of reach.

The two females who had not done a lot of tug play ever but are both ball crazy were much more tentative.

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Now the police officer said he looks for a dog with more fight drive for detection work because he thinks it will want the reward toy more. 

(1) Is his assesment about fight drive accurate?
(2) What do you think about this for selection of detection candidate?


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> ---------------------
> 
> Now the police officer said he looks for a dog with more fight drive for detection work because he thinks it will want the reward toy more.
> 
> ...


Personally, I think he is misidentifying "fight" drive. Possessiveness of the toy, and the willingness to play tug-of-war, in my opinion, is not the same as fight drive. When selecting single purpose detector dogs, fight drive is the last thing on my mind. I do evaluate the dog's hunt for an object, the retrieve and possessiveness of the object. Lack of hunt and retrieve, to me are deal breakers. Not necessarily possessiveness. Sometimes, particularly in Labs, some good dogs are overlooked because well-bred labs do not necessarily have a lot of possessiveness. Their hunt and retrieve however is over the top. 

I can't ever remember using "fight" as a determination for selecting detector dogs. Actually, when selecting a green patrol dog candidate, fight drive is something that comes out later in training, not during the selection process.

DFrost


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

second Mr Frost.
there are groups of dogs that get so much satisfaction by the opportunity to search. Look to find those.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well I was kinda curious because I don't know anything about biting dog things....


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I agree with DFrost. We look for the insatiable retrieve/hunt drive.

Also, for patrol work I prefer a dog with far more prey drive than defense. A sharp defensive dog is a weak dog. The solid dog with high prey drive has the defense brought out in him by proper training. Alligators are a liability and not the most solid dogs for us on the street.


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

> I agree with DFrost. We look for the insatiable retrieve/hunt drive.
> 
> Also, for patrol work I prefer a dog with far more prey drive than defense. A sharp defensive dog is a weak dog. The solid dog with high prey drive has the defense brought out in him by proper training. Alligators are a liability and not the most solid dogs for us on the street.


Well said I agree prey drive is much better than a defensive dog. I was trying to think of a good way to say that but you covered it perfectly


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well, we trainers have discussed this for years. What degree of prey to defense when evaling. Give me a solid prey dog anytime with a rock solid temperament. 
I think too what happens is some folks confuse a sharp defensive dog with being a bad @ss when in fact he is weak and fearful. Also a nervy dog in detection work, with high drive can equal a dog that is hectic,has little focus, and pretty much melts down on a search


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The reason I asked was that EVERYTHING I saw in the younger dog was all about play - thought I don't know if fight=defense or is something about the way he percieved the dog engaged. He clearly did NOT push the dogs into any kind of defense that I saw. And with the females who did not want to tug, he got on the floor to entice them.

I did like the wall though and we plan on going up there when we can. I think it will be a real help for me to sharpen up commintment/duration on my own dog and build a little more precision with directed searching. I was able to run away and get out of sight of my dog who stayed staring at the hole in the wall. 

My old guy showed no agression, neither did the young one, - neither dog rebit and both dogs allowed him to pet their head, neck, etc while tugging.

I have seen a dog that was crazy high drive and hectic and what happened with this dog in tracking is , if she lost the track, she went frantic, lost focus, and had a hard time recovering. I don't think she could have worked any kind of negative search.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Was the tracking dog a forced track dog?

I have several of those walls. google the behavior shaping remote device and you will see them. easy to build


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No ......... that dog was just a hectic dog

Not the BSD, Not Dutch Boxes, this wall was just a wall with holes in it - more than foot long, about 7 feet high, a few hundred holes each partitinoned on the back - person behind the wall doing the reward (of course another distracter to work off of) .........

I imagine you have seen this type; he said border control uses it. It is basically a variation of the Herstick Wall only without the PVC tubes and a whole lot more holes.

http://www.detectiondogs.com/articles/TrainingDetectionDogs.pdf

Only there were 6 rows of about 10 holes across per section - I will see if he minds if I take a picture next time we go. The side facing the dog was a molded plastic with thick beveled edges so they could not catch their teeth. The relative opennes allowed them to tug with the dog through the hole which, for a tug dog, just ramped it up even more. 

I think none of that is rocket science they are all various ways to get the reward coming from source - still can't train 100% that way (other than having a good arm and having others throw the ball) but always nice to incorporate and I saw it would be useful for specific purposes. Another tool in the tool box


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Wish I would have put my name on those walls when I first used them in the 60's. Problem was, I copied them from other people, ha ha. they are not original. All you need is 4/8 sheets of plywood and few 2x4's and some hole cutters. A scroll saw will work in a pinch.

DFrost


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yeah, that's all. I was just impressed with their simplicity. 

Ah well it is like the "water search alert system" that people used for decades before someone put their name on it and marketed it.

The simple idea of a wieghted container holding source, a pully, a rope, and a buoy to bob up and down (1) when training source and (2) to release for grabbing when the dog indicates. I *did* make one improvement because my dog kept puncturing the floats and took a peice of PVC pipe and sealed it off to make the float............but some dogs did not like the hard plastic........However 4 years later and it still does not leak!

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I think the wheel has not been reinvented, just repackaged for a lot of this. I still thought this particular wall design was neat for its simplicity.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Yep. been using that training dogs in the water for years and years. Learned that from BIlly SMith more years ago than I care to mention  I use retrieving dummies.


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