# Neutering a non-confident fearful dog



## Kittilicious

I don't even know if the two go hand in hand and I know there are so many differences of opinions on fixing dogs anyway, but I'm going to throw this out anyway. 

Knuckles is a fearful, non-confident dog. We are working on this and making progress, but I know he will never be a fearless, confident dog. He's getting to the age where I can have him neutered, but I just don't know what to do. Eventually I do want him fixed only because even though I have no intentions on giving him an opportunity to go have some big boy fun (by accident or not), things happen and I don't want to be responsible for one more oops litter in the world. So my question is - do you think waiting until he's older will make a difference? Giving him his full "manhood", for lack of a better word (not enough coffee yet), will help with his confidence/fearfulness during his development or does it even play a part in it?


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## Draugr

I think pups are far more likely to wind up with behavioral problems when neutered before maturity. That said, I think the biggest problems lie in the 2-4 month age so many like to advocate - and that really once you get past a year old you're having less and less risk.

That time frame obviously changes with differently sized dogs and different rates of maturity (my dog is 26 months old and STILL has a youthful frame - and frame, mind you, he's not really even started the filling out I don't think).

If I were you, (since you appear to be responsible and understand the implications of allowing your dog to breed, and will be guarded against that), I would wait until the 18-24 month age frame, rather than this soon.

There are a couple studies I linked in another thread not too long ago - I'll have to see if I can dig them up again - but neutering was *correlated*with more fearful behaviors in dogs as well as other problem behaviors.

Now, I'd caution against making too many leaps with that - I think it's likely, because I believe all a dog's hormones are necessary for optimal development, but that's JMHO (and you certainly aren't killing a dog if you do anything sooner) - the correlation could be explained by other things. Maybe dogs that display fear aggression are commonly mistaken as being truly aggressive, and people think that neutering will take that aggression away - aka "problem behavior" dogs are more likely to be neutered than well-behaved dogs, so that could explain the correlation. Remember the golden rule of statistics, correlation does not imply causation.

I think neutering him this young could certainly affect his normal mental development, and with a dog that shows fear/non-confidence I'd want to stack every card in my deck that I was able to. I am wary against saying it "will" make a difference, but I'm confident enough to say that it is likely to (and I freely admit that this is from mostly anecdotal, secondhand accounts, and my own readings of veterinary literature - I've really only had experience with two dogs from puppy age onward).

I would also say to you that at six months it is very difficult to discern his adult temperament unless you have had a lot of experience raising pups, and specifically, German Shepherd pups, and even more specifically, German Shepherd pups of his line. The fearful, non-confident behavior could be a fear stage - in which case I would especially caution you against neutering during this as even slightly traumatic events can really affect how a dog's psyche develops during this time.

Hope that helps. It is always good to see more people who understand the gravity of allowing an unproven/untested/etc dog to breed.


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## Emoore

My Rocky is a fearful, non-confident dog. He was neutered at 9 months. I didn't notice a behavior change from before to after. Hopefully xxMyRoxyxx will show up. . . I forgot what age she neutered her Rocky, but he's another non-confident boy. I'd be interested in what she has to say, if his behavior changed at all.


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## Dragonwyke

being a rescuer, i'm a huge advocate of altering animals. however, when i got my Hugo he wasn't neutered and i came on here and asked about the best age to neuter an older gsd (he was 1.5yrs when he got here in november last yr). i got ALOT of good information . so i did some internet research on the info i got. 

there's something i found out. hormonal development in young dogs, especially males it turns out, is extremely important both in emotional/mental and physical. it has immense effects on the bone thickness and strength, the breadth of the sternum and development of hip joints, surprisingly, in the growth plates. psychologically, and if you think about it it makes sense, the hormones really deal them a knock out blow. just like w/teenagers going thru puberty but in a real rushed spasm. if you remove those hormones too soon they never get to finish that and they get stuck right where they were. eventually they may come out of it, but they may stay right there too and you end up w/what could turn into a problem dog. 

now, all the politically correct literature will tell you that you should get your animal altered asap, no matter what the consequences are. but you have to keep in mind that they are referring to people that are irresponsible owners, people that will let their animal run the street, those very animals that will end up at my house, or some other rescuer or shelter. 

my dog Hugo, who i've decided to keep as my own will not be altered until he is 3yrs old. after having him to the vet, he has some growing to do across the sternum and some more growth in the spine to do, he has more muscle mass to put on, and a bit more height. he's got very heavy bone and i don't want to damage that. he's very much a puppy right now, and i want him to "be a man" in his mind before i do the deed. i will wait. there are no proven medical reports telling anyone that testicular cancer is anymore prevalent in later neutered males than in puppy neutered males. others will tell you different, ask them to show you the reports. there are reports showing just the opposite. 

never neuter your pet because it's politically correct. it's always better to wait if you're educated and responsible. i have been RE-educated, thanks to this site.  

Dragonwyke


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## Freestep

It's hard to say and I've often wondered that myself. I have seen nervous intact dogs become less nervous after neutering. Testosterone is something of an "upper" in terms of behavior, everything is a bit more intense with testosterone, and if a dog is fearful, I can see how it could cause some conflicting emotions. 

Statistically, most dog bites are from intact dogs. Fearful dogs are more likely to bite whether neutered or not, but I can see how testosterone added to the mix might weigh more into the "fight" than the "flight", and make him quicker to bite in order to solve his problems. Once that starts, it can become a pattern... "I bit that scary person and he went away" ... next time he's more likely to repeat what worked, whether neutered or not.

Then again, testosterone is supposed to be a confidence drug.

So, I really don't know what the answer is. If it were my dog, I'd probably go ahead and neuter around 8 or 9 months to preclude any male-type issues complicating things.


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## Draugr

Dragonwyke said:


> there are no proven medical reports telling anyone that testicular cancer is anymore prevalent in later neutered males than in puppy neutered males. others will tell you different, ask them to show you the reports. there are reports showing just the opposite.


According to the following literature review, it's actually not prevalent, period.

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If my understanding is correct the .9% figure also includes those dogs with retained testicles, so the real risk for an intact dog with everything where it is supposed to be is even lower than that. It's truly insignificant ("significant" in medical literature is anything with a risk over 1%).

I am sure in rescue/shelter situations it is seen more than that considering often the dogs are not from the best genetic or environmental backgrounds (those being a couple of many factors in cancer risks).

~

What you'll likely get by neutering young is stopping sexually dimorphic behaviors from developing in the first place, behaviors that may not really go away, or only reduce in intensity/frequency, when you neuter them later. You will also probably have a more "biddable" dog that is less likely to contest you. I am not above admitting there are benefits to to neutering a puppy at six months of age.

I consider that secondary, however, to the risks of neutering at that age (if you have the ability to make that choice). Currently I really don't have a good opinion on what age would really be best to have a dog neutered to balance out developmental, behaviors, and health risks/benefits. 18-24 months seems like a decent age and is one most often cited by users on this forum, though.

However if you decide upon six months that is your decision and your decision alone and you need to decide what works best for you and your pup. And do not let anyone feel like you are killing him because you decided to neuter him that young. Because, that simply isn't true. This is just one of those very divisive issues in which people tend to fall very strongly to one side of the aisle or another.


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## Dragonwyke

Draugr said:


> If my understanding is correct the .9% figure also includes those dogs with retained testicles, so the real risk for an intact dog with everything where it is supposed to be is even lower than that. It's truly insignificant ("significant" in medical literature is anything with a risk over 1%).
> 
> I am sure in rescue/shelter situations it is seen more than that considering often the dogs are not from the best genetic or environmental backgrounds (those being a couple of many factors in cancer risks).
> 
> ~


i'd have to thoroughly agree, draugr. resq/shelter situations are working from the basis that the animals are mostly unwanted/uncared for so cannot be allowed to produce more unwanted/uncared for animals, as well as possibly unhealthy animals. 

i also agree w/this 

"However if you decide upon six months that is your decision and your decision alone and you need to decide what works best for you and your pup. And do not let anyone feel like you are killing him because you decided to neuter him that young. Because, that simply isn't true. This is just one of those very divisive issues in which people tend to fall very strongly to one side of the aisle or another. "

in the end, whatever decision is made, the dog will not suffer from it. the what ifs, could bes, and maybes are things everyone deals with in keeping animals. 

dw


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## shepherdmom

I had two male puppies from the same litter. One we neutered at 6 months the other we waited on. The dog we neuterd was less confident and less dominate that his brother and at 9 he still doesn't lift his leg. Size they were the same. Same height same weight. The one we waited to neuter had more classic lines, the one we neutered at 6 months always looks more rolly polly and chunkey even tho he was the same weight. However as puppies he was always the chunk also he was the less dominate as a puppy. I personally do not think neutering younger made any difference.


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## Falkosmom

My older dog was less confident as a pup and I did not neuter till 5 yrs due to health issues. His confidence improved dramatically with maturity.


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## cta

my dog was neutered at a young age...around 7 months. he too isn't all that confident. i did not notice any change in this after he was fixed. his personality has remained the same.


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## x0emiroxy0x

My rocky was neutered at five weeks which I didn't know when I got him. He was fearful since 8weeks and when he hit one and two months he got what the vet thinks was a late boost of testosterone and went from being fearful and running from scary things to fake nipping at scary things. Training is very crucial and we spend a minimum of an hour every day socializing.

I truly think the neutering at five weeks is the main cause of his fearfulness.


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## Good_Karma

My underconfident dog was neutered at one year old. I did not see any change in his confidence level due to that. Getting him in to classes and learning to deal with his reactivity with positive training methods was what has helped the most with him


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> So, I really don't know what the answer is. If it were my dog, I'd probably go ahead and neuter around 8 or 9 months to preclude any male-type issues complicating things.


This would be my bottom line, as well. It's hard enough dealing with a fearful dog, without throwing in the leg-lifting and other behaviors that may be brought about by sexual maturity.
I doubt having the testosterone will affect him positively as much as it might throw things the other way but that is just my opinion. 
There's plenty of intact males who are behaviorally challenged and as Good Karma stated, classes helped more than anything.

Genetic fearfulness is just that. A genetically sound dog wouldn't become fearful after a neuter, and you have to remember when adopting shelter animals, these are not top-of-the-line bloodlines we're dealing with, but rather backyard style breeding and puppy mill "line" bloodlines.

We just got a Chihuahua into rescue who is a fearful wreck (and bites), he's got to be at least 8yrs. old and still intact. Environment (previous) has as much to do with this behavior as anything.


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## Dragonwyke

one thing to remember when thinking about altering, or anything else we may want to physically or psychologically do to or with our animals. what ever we do has to be for their benefit. just because something is difficult or "hard enough" for us to deal with shouldn't be a consideration. that is something we willingly take on when we take on the responsibility of our animals. 

when we agree to live with, own, care for, cohabitate, what you want to call it, we agree to take what ever comes with it. it's like having children or committing to a marriage or a job. you take the good with the bad. you don't do things TO them so that things are easier or more convenient for you. you do them because it is BETTER for them. weighing the options for THEM is the importance. NOT the convenience to you. 

dw


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## msvette2u

Dragonwyke said:


> one thing to remember when thinking about altering, or anything else we may want to physically or psychologically do to or with our animals. what ever we do has to be for their benefit. just because something is difficult or "hard enough" for us to deal with shouldn't be a consideration. that is something we willingly take on when we take on the responsibility of our animals.
> 
> when we agree to live with, own, care for, cohabitate, what you want to call it, we agree to take what ever comes with it. it's like having children or committing to a marriage or a job. you take the good with the bad. you don't do things TO them so that things are easier or more convenient for you. you do them because it is BETTER for them. weighing the options for THEM is the importance. NOT the convenience to you.
> 
> dw


I agree with this - as far as a moral platitude goes - but in reality, no, this isn't how life works.

We (as a society) castrate (or spay) animals all the time so they are easier to live with.
Things change, people have babies, people move out, we get older, etc. 
Things you never figured would happen in your life start happening.

I doubt the OP took on this puppy realizing he was going to be a fearful mess, and what she needs to do now is either cope with him as he is, or make him easier to live with.

So while you may think the above is true, and it is what we would all strive for, reality is, it's not that black and white. 

And good gosh, people neuter dogs every single day. It's not the end of the world if he's fixed or not.


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## llombardo

The two options given are really a no win situation and ultimately its up to the person to make a decision. My male golden was fixed at 4 months and he is a little over two now..he is a very confident dog that loves everyone, he's maintained an ideal and same weight for the last year. I met someone who had his sister and she was very skittish and not friendly I was surprised they were brother and sister. I recently took in a male in tact year old golden as a rescue. He was also very confident, but when his new owners got him fixed he gained lots of weight--when I seen him again I was shocked That dog is exercised and walked miles daily and shouldn't be as heavy as he is-but he is still confident. Now after some research between the growing bones and maturity after they are older versus the cancer situation when they are younger I opted to get my female fixed at 5 months.....the cancer scared me more then having a dog with behavior problems..I can fix the behavior but I can't cure the cancer She is as confident as ever and there is no difference in her personality...she's just as crazy as ever


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## Falkosmom

msvette2u said:


> I doubt the OP took on this puppy realizing he was going to be a fearful mess, and what she needs to do now is either cope with him as he is, or make him easier to live with.


I have had mostly male dogs and only had to have one neutered for health issues. I never had any behavioral problems with any of them because they were not neutered. I never had a male dog lift his leg anywhere but outside, so who cares if he lifts his leg? I don't think that neutering a dog would make them easier to live with unless a dog is having undesireable behaviors due directly to hormones. 

Now with my neutered dog, he went from being an active, lean dog that ate whatever he wanted to an overweight less active dog that has a roly poly body with a paunch that needs to have his food intake strictly monitored. It also seemed to have put a damper on his spark.

Now I am all for neutering to help stop overpopulation, and I am sure that it can help with some dogs that have behavioral issues, but I have not seen where neutering could have, would have, been beneficial, temperament wise in any of my dogs.


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## Freestep

Dragonwyke said:


> you don't do things TO them so that things are easier or more convenient for you. you do them because it is BETTER for them. weighing the options for THEM is the importance. NOT the convenience to you.


Who says the two are mutually exclusive? Making a pet easier to live with is in the pet's best interest too. When people and pets are at odds, bad things can wind up happening to the pet because most people aren't going to allow pets to run their lives.

I will leave dogs out of this, and talk about cats--I neuter mine because I don't want fighting, tomcats spraying all over my house, and other undesireable behavioral tendencies. It is also healthier for them, as neutered cats tend to stay out of trouble and live longer. But guess what? Even if it didn't make a bit of difference to their health, I would still neuter. Because I like sweet, clean, companionable cats in my house. That makes them easier to live with and more convenient for ME. In turn, the cats get more privileges, more cuddles, more positive attention. I say that's win-win.


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## msvette2u

Falkosmom said:


> Now with my neutered dog, he went from being an active, lean dog that ate whatever he wanted to an overweight less active dog that has a roly poly body with a paunch that needs to have his food intake strictly monitored. It also seemed to have put a damper on his spark.
> 
> Now I am all for neutering to help stop overpopulation, and I am sure that it can help with some dogs that have behavioral issues, but I have not seen where neutering could have, would have, been beneficial, temperament wise in any of my dogs.


Having a rescue I see firsthand over and over the preference for females, due to males marking_ in the house._ At this moment we have a male (neutered) Pug foster dog and he's marking all over. That triggers marking behavior in our own dog(s). 

Yes neutering before puberty can often stave off this behavior. 

As for your dog being fat and lazy that is your own fault, feed him less and get him outside more, exercise him!

Neutering has done nothing of the sort for any of my dogs. If yours is lacking "spark" perhaps you need to take him and get a thyroid check for him. Our dogs are anything but "sparkless" and none are fat or lazy.

No dog should ever eat "whatever it wants"


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## Dragonwyke

msvette2u said:


> I agree with this - as far as a moral platitude goes - but in reality, no, this isn't how life works.
> 
> We (as a society) castrate (or spay) animals all the time so they are easier to live with.
> Things change, people have babies, people move out, we get older, etc.
> Things you never figured would happen in your life start happening.
> 
> 
> 
> So while you may think the above is true, and it is what we would all strive for, reality is, it's not that black and white.
> 
> And good gosh, people neuter dogs every single day. It's not the end of the world if he's fixed or not.


to me this is NOT mere "moral platitude". this is how i live my life. this is how i've raised my children to live their lives. it's called personal responsibility. we make a commitment to an innocent, helpless, life, to someone that w/out us cannot care for themselves we better by the gods stick to that commitment. reality is what we make it. we make choices every single day and THAT is our reality. life is only as black and white as we make it. who is to say that because "society" says it is so that society is right. just because change is a good thing does not mean that commitment to personal responsibility needs to be put aside. 

of course, altering an animal is not the end of the world, but it's a decision that cannot be undone. so make sure it's the one you want to make. and make sure you're making it for the right reasons. that's all i'm saying. 

dw


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## Freestep

Dragonwyke said:


> to me this is NOT mere "moral platitude". this is how i live my life. this is how i've raised my children to live their lives.


I totally agree with you regarding children. So many parents have tried to change their children in order to fit into what is convenient for THEM. That just gives the child a complex which can cause a lot of suffering and years of therapy to undo. As a parent, you have to alter your lifestyle or way of thinking, if necessary, to do what is best for the child, not the other way around. I'm not saying you should coddle or spoil your children, because that is not in their best interest, but you don't try to change your children's basic temperament because you happen not to like it--you as a parent must adjust.

However... dogs are not children.


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## martemchik

I won't neuter my dog because I see nothing wrong with him right now and there is no reason to change something about him that might mess with his temperament. I trial/train and I don't want him to lose his drive for that either. He is controlled at all times, and I feel that as an owner I am responsible enough to handle an intact male. Now, I have also heard that it doesn't change their temperaments at all from everyone at my club, I'm not so worried about the temperament as much as I am about the drive though. There is a reason that police dogs and other working dogs aren't neutered and I believe that if I want to channel that drive in any form I should leave it alone.

My dog is also not reactive to other intact males, we have met plenty of intact males at the dog park that are reactive to him, and when they react to him in an agressive way, he definately doesn't back down...and as much as that worries me I refuse to neuter my dog because other people's dogs have issues. I have also done my research and the risk of cancer isn't large enough to outweigh the benefits I've listed.

In the OPs case, I don't think neutering would hurt this dog. It might get other dogs to react less to it and therefore not get as fearful. I know the one guy wrote about his dog being neutered at 5 weeks and attributes that as the main reason his dog is fearful, but it was probably not a good breeder and not good parents, but at this point these are all what ifs. Most dogs in the United States are neutered and no body notices the difference, I really doubt it can get worse, but there is a chance it can get better.


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## iBaman

Sheldon was neutered at 4 months, and has ZERO problems with confidence. He is not fearful in any way, and he will prance up to something big and scary with no issues. His worst problem is resource guarding, and even then, he's gotten oodles better. I really don't think neutering young vs. older has much influence on their confidence or fearfulness. =/


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## Kittilicious

I just want to make it clear that I don't want to fix him to make things easier for me... the whole reason I am asking about this is because if I do have him fixed and it DOESN'T help his fearfulness, actually making it worse. If his testosterone will help him gain confidence, then I don't want to take it away. 

All these are really good points - for or against. I'm sure not rushing into this decision, thats for sure.


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## msvette2u

I think the bottom line is genetics more than testosterone or lack thereof made more of a difference.


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## Kittilicious

Yep, that I agree with. I just am afraid that if I do get him fixed now (or soon), that I am taking away something that could benefit him in the long run. If not fixing him is better for his development of confidence, then thats what I want to do, but if it doesn't make a difference in the long run then I won't even take that into consideration when trying to decide when I'm going to have it done.


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## msvette2u

And if it goes the other way and complicates things further?


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## llombardo

I don't believe that fixing a dog will make a dog less confident...either they are confident or they aren't. What neutering will do is make a dog slightly calmer, less likely to run(if it smells a female in heat is a good example), and reduce some health problems in the future. There are really no reasons not to fix a dog unless they are being bred and only God knows that we don't need more puppies in this over populated world we live in.


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## Kittilicious

msvette2u said:


> And if it goes the other way and complicates things further?


Thats what I'm afraid of


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## Draugr

I don't think there can really be any definitive answers. It "could" affect him in the long run.

It could not, as well.

I think his best odds are if you leave him intact until he is much older. But, that could go wrong too, just as easily as neutering him now could cause problems down the line. There's a bunch of possibilities and...yeah, this is pretty much a lose/lose situation for you . It's hard to really say what the right choice is.

My dog is shy and intact for now, and it's really not easy for me to say if that has anything to do with it or not. He's gotten much better but I'd attribute that to training and further socialization more than I would the presence of testosterone. I think the only thing that has done for him is given him more proper, normal, regulated growth, and made him a bit of a butt-head at times XD. Nothing I can't easily deal with, of course, but I wouldn't say leaving him intact has made things easier. A lot of that may just be genetics though. Very hard to say. Like Dragonwyke I have problems with doing anything to a dog, especially of such permanent nature, for personal convenience. I don't condemn others for not feeling this way, of course.

And ultimately what Freestep said is true, too. Making a dog easier to live with, for "selfish" reasons really winds up not being so selfish because the dog is going to be happier, too. I've only got experience with two dogs from puppy age on, though, and although both have very different backgrounds and environmental factors in how they were raised, they have both been easy to live with. Still, they are only two dogs. I don't have a lot of experience.


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## Dragonwyke

Draugr said:


> I don't think there can really be any definitive answers. It "could" affect him in the long run.
> 
> It could not, as well.


there are alot questions with one so young. no matter what you chose. in the end only you can decide. do your research. think on the matter and then decide. if you decide to wait, you can always decide for neutering at another time. THAT's a decision that can be changed. i've had alot of dogs come thru my house, both altered and not altered. very rarely is there any behavior that stems directly from being either one. 

you're doing very well just for questioning which would be best. most folks just jump on the bandwagon w/out even thinking. 

dw


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## Falkosmom

msvette2u said:


> As for your dog being fat and lazy that is your own fault, feed him less and get him outside more, exercise him!
> 
> Neutering has done nothing of the sort for any of my dogs. If yours is lacking "spark" perhaps you need to take him and get a thyroid check for him. Our dogs are anything but "sparkless" and none are fat or lazy.
> 
> No dog should ever eat "whatever it wants"


If you had read all of my quote, you would have seen where I wrote that his food is now restricted and I never called him lazy. He has had his thyroid checked and their is no problem, his lack of spark, as well as his weight gain occured after neutering. He still receives the same amount of exercise.


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## msvette2u

It has been proven that dogs do not automatically gain weight once altered.
So something else is wrong if your dog is fat and lacks spark.

I'd invite you to come to our home where we have 7 altered dogs of our own and many fosters (including two long term fosters) where none are fat, and all have healthy shiny coats, they play energetically every day. 

Other than an illness like thyroid, a dog's weight, like humans, is directly related to their caloric intake.

Dog profile for Rest in Peace, Yaeger, a male German Shepherd Our Yaeger, passed away at 8yrs. too young  from an FCE. He was never overweight a day in his life because we measured his intake and fed him enough to keep him healthy yet not so much he got fat. He was neutered as a 4-5 mo. old puppy.

He had plenty of "spark" right up until his back went out. Check the other dogs we have on dogster to see them as well, none are overweight (all get perfect body scores @ the vet, a "3" on a scale of 1-5) and all have energy and spark.


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## Falkosmom

msvette2u said:


> It has been proven that dogs do not automatically gain weight once altered.
> So something else is wrong if your dog is fat and lacks spark.


The weight gain followed the neuter. 

The dog has had complete blood work ups, xrays and ultrasound. He has no health problems that could contribute to weight gain, in fact just the opposite.


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## Koda1!

*To neuter or not to Neuter - THAT is the real question!*

My almost 19 mo old GSD is scheduled to lose his jewels next week. I have heard so many mixed things about neutering - and the vet certainly won't give us a real honest answer.

My dog is a bit fearful/guarded around strangers. He is typically non-reactive around other dogs - now if a dog "wants to go" he won't back down no matter how many dogs there are. But he can also just ignore them when he chooses. Despite socialization since 3 mos of age, and environmental "stressors" (MILD) he is not a confident dog.

My dog has gotten more protective over the past couple months. He doesn't like to have people he doesn't know stare at us, or get too close to "his" property or people.

My questions are: Is neutering HARMFUL to a dog in general terms? Are there solid BENEFITS to neutering? Does it change a dogs personality much?

Is the recovery protracted? Anything to watch for specifically?


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