# Using bite tugs with treats inside or smell with food to increase bite intensity



## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Has anybody here had success with those bite tugs where you can put treats inside to increase the intensity of the bite? I know Leerburg sells them. I was curious if this is something that would cause the dog to become reliant on the smell to bite hard or would it help encourage the self-reinforcing behavior of biting harder? 

On a side note, I have a friend who is trying to get the dog interested in tug (little toy drive). I was wondering if would be possible to motivate the dog to play tug using markers with treats using shaping to get the dog interested in biting a tug.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would sincerely advise you to get under the tutelage of a mentor or training director in a club to pursue what you are asking. These things vary so much depending on the dog, the equipment, and the approach, it's far to complicated to explain on a forum without a greater chance of no progress or little progress than success. Remember, no training is better than bad or unsure training.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You encourage a dog to bite a tug harder by using a leather tug that you can slip out of his mouth and win from him a little more easily. A lot of people use jute and because the dogs teeth can go into the holes they can hold on more easily without really having to clamp down and that is crap. It is the potential to lose the tug that gets a dog to clamp down. This can be overdone.

When I see people have dogs that don't want to play tug it comes down to two reasons. 1. They just don't have the right dog for the game or 2. The humans don't know how to play the game properly and the dog is turned off of the game for that reason.

Cliffson is basically right though. The forum won't really be able to help you with this issue except to point you in the direction of someone who might be able to help.

The treat tug is barking up the wrong tree though. It is available but it is a bad approach. Getting a dog with a little bit of prey drive addicted to playing the game is an art form and treat training isn't part of it.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I didn't even know they made those.


----------



## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> I didn't even know they made those.


Yup! 

Treat Tug


----------



## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> I would sincerely advise you to get under the tutelage of a mentor or training director in a club to pursue what you are asking. These things vary so much depending on the dog, the equipment, and the approach, it's far to complicated to explain on a forum without a greater chance of no progress or little progress than success. Remember, no training is better than bad or unsure training.


Yes, I do get advice from the clubs. What's the point of a forum if you can't ask questions? lol Most trainers in the Ring Sports have never heard of a treat tug. I just saw one on Leerburg for the first time a few days ago. 

I look at forums to bounce off training ideas, not receive condescending responses like this.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Wolfhund said:


> Yes, I do get advice from the clubs. What's the point of a forum if you can't ask questions? lol Most trainers in the Ring Sports have never heard of a treat tug. I just saw one on Leerburg for the first time a few days ago.
> 
> I look at forums to bounce off training ideas, not receive condescending responses like this.


No problem, good luck!
I agree about forums being good...and when I see that the people on this forum that KNOW how to do what you're asking agreeing with me, I guess it's up to individual on HOW to benefit from forum.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have never heard of these. Grip is genetic in the GSD. Fullness comes from prey. The hardness and power from aggression (from either prey aggression or fight drive). It is all genetic. Yes, I am simplifying things so don't everyone freak out. You aren't going to create a hard grip with a toy (though as someone said earlier, the leather is good for when a young dog is lazy). 

As far as your friend's dog. See if he can get the dog to fight with him on the tug. Deja had little toy drive as a young dog. She did like to fight with me which I was able to transfer to a toy. In protection she never would "play" with a helper. No pillows or rags and had no interest until she could actually, in her mind, bite the guy and fight with him.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Wolfhund said:


> I look at forums to bounce off training ideas, not receive condescending responses like this.


:nono:


----------



## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

lhczth said:


> As far as your friend's dog. See if he can get the dog to fight with him on the tug. Deja had little toy drive as a young dog. She did like to fight with me which I was able to transfer to a toy. In protection she never would "play" with a helper. No pillows or rags and had no interest until she could actually, in her mind, bite the guy and fight with him.


When you say fight, do you mean bringing the dog into defensive drive?


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I had never heard of a treat tug either. 

It is not something that I would ever use for building drive or "increasing the intensity"of a bite. I agree with the other posters who have responded to this thread. For drive building or bite building, I would use good old fashion decoy work, proper presentation and proper drive building. This treat tug thing is a gimmick, I give the marketing guys credit. 

However, I can see a use for it in our narcotics training. I could add narcotics odor to it and begin odor imprinting for training. This could replace the cotton towels that we use and impregnate with odor. That might be a good use for those velcro lined tugs. Treats not so much.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

My absolute favorite tug for getting a dog to clamp harder is going to be something like this. Leather Single Handle Tug 2x10

If the dog will actively engage for the tug I prefer a no handle version. The only reason I like that one handle is if I have a dog that perceives a conflict with tugging with me if I am holding onto the tug initially I can tie a rope to the handle or make a flirt pole from it and use it like that until the dog works up to not caring if I'm holding it or not. Plus I can let him possess without necessarily being able to run off with the tug if he is one of those high possession guys that just wants to win it run off with it and hide in a corner with it somewhere rather than play for it until he learns to enjoy the game itself.

Otherwise I prefer no handle tugs made of either that same leather material or suit material. Super strong dogs will possibly break or dislocate your fingers if you only manage to get one or two fingers in the handle and the dog decides to torque it at the wrong moment. The other reason I like the handleless tugs is it is easier for the dog to win without you actually letting him. They can tell when they win legit and when you let them and once they realize they can beat you for real they REALLY get into it.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I've never heard of this contraption either. I agree with everyone else. Many different ways to build a dog. Also many reasons the dog may not be engaging. The human component is a huge one. 

In addition to the leather/suede tug, misses can also improve the strike and bite of the dog and build the drive. So can challenging the dog for the tug. I don't recommend the last part if you're not experienced. It can cause some conflict if not done correctly or with the right dog. Getting with someone knowledgeable first hand is really the only way to improve this.


----------



## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Baillif said:


> If the dog will actively engage for the tug I prefer a no handle version. The only reason I like that one handle is if I have a dog that perceives a conflict with tugging with me if I am holding onto the tug initially I can tie a rope to the handle or make a flirt pole from it and use it like that until the dog works up to not caring if I'm holding it or not. Plus I can let him possess without necessarily being able to run off with the tug if he is one of those high possession guys that just wants to win it run off with it and hide in a corner with it somewhere rather than play for it until he learns to enjoy the game itself.


Thanks Baillif, this was super helpful. When my dog does bite work with the helper and I apply back pressure from the line attached to his harness he gets in a full bite, but when I play tug and face him head on his grip is weakens. There definitely seems to be some conflict. If I play tug and turn more of a prey chase game, his grip is stronger. I will have to do what you recommended and build him up slowly playing tug indirectly until he doesn't care any more about getting a super deep grip facing me head on.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

One of the things that was never explained well to me when I was starting down the path of dog bite sports is that tug play is tug play and bitework is bitework. Tug before proper grip development can potentially create problems with bitework itself. If the grip and bitework foundation is there then you really don't have to care much about how tug play is done. I don't care if a dog grips the tug full if we are playing a game. I don't really care if he wants to chew on the tug, although I don't want to see it when I have tension on the tug and it is in his mouth. If I see that I will slip the tug out of his mouth and then create some frustration by making him miss a bite on the tug to discourage it. What I definitely don't want to see is a dog being chewy on a sleeve or suit so the foundation on that sort of thing has to be done right by someone who knows what they are doing.

Dogs will do all kinds of things in tug play you don't want to see on a sleeve. They might move the tug to a front teeth grip to tease you into thinking you can take it. They don't need to have it all the way in the back of the mouth. Who cares? It isn't a bitework analogue. Tug is a possession game like retrieves is a game. Under a training context it is a reward, not a part of the bite development process itself. 

The most important thing to remember is you need it to be fun for it to be a reward. If your dog doesn't care for the game it isn't going to be a good training reward. I've seen people get so caught up in trying to play the way Michael Ellis does or some trainer they've seen that they ruin the fun of it for the dog. These dogs don't like to play with their handlers and it creates big problems for them in training sometimes, especially when their outs and recalls off decoys are being trained motivationally.


----------



## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

The leather rag is also useful in removing puppy teeth













Kim


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, when I say fight I mean a dog that wants to fight with the helper/decoy whether it is to dominate and control the helper/decoy or if it is to steel the prey (depending on the type of dog).


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Wolfhund said:


> Thanks Baillif, this was super helpful. When my dog does bite work with the helper and I apply back pressure from the line attached to his harness he gets in a full bite, but when I play tug and face him head on his grip is weakens. There definitely seems to be some conflict. If I play tug and turn more of a prey chase game, his grip is stronger. I will have to do what you recommended and build him up slowly playing tug indirectly until he doesn't care any more about getting a super deep grip facing me head on.


The way Ivan goes from tug to retrieve and back again may help.


----------

