# Breed Survey (KKL) question



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd like to breed survey my dog. He is 3 years old, has BH, SG, SchH1, OFA hips and elbows, so he's already got all the requirements. I already got permission from the judge (Grewe) to run the AD the same weekend of the survey and was told that OFAs would be accepted. My issue is that the dog has a "slight" overbite. I say that in quotes because how inconsequential or severe it is seems to totally depend on who I ask. I don't want to drive four states over, pay the entry fee (what like $150?) only to make a fool of myself and my dog. 

Based on the survey regulations I have no idea if an overbite is permitted or will get a dog excused.


> [KKL1]7.1.3. Faultless dentition with no missing teeth; however, double premolars #1 are allowed.
> 
> [KKL2]
> 7.2.4. Dentition faults as follows:
> ...


I've asked breeders and show people for advice before but it's like no one wants to offend me or is worried that it will be interpreted as talking bad about the dog or breeder. Trust me I will not be offended if I can't show my dog (it will save me some $$$!), I just want some honest opinions. The dog is what it is, he's always had an overbite and I really don't care because it is purely an aesthetic fault, but if it's of little consequence for a breed survey I'd like to do the survey for the experience. If this was your dog, would you enter the breed survey?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I can't answer the question directly because I am not expereinced with breed surveys. This is something that I would love to learn about though. My question is this; Why do you want to do the breed survey? Is the dog a breeding prospect? Is the overbite something that prospective buyers of offspring would be concerned about? Is this the type of thing that is passed on to the next generation? Like I said, I am just trying to learn.
Thanks,
Rob


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Others might have different experiences, but from what my trainer and breeder has told me, it's hard to fail your breed survey if the dog is decent. At the very least, you might be kkl2 which I heard they might get rid of because almost no dogs are classified as 2 anymore. 

I would enter the dog. I think at the least, you can get a kkl2. And I don't think his overbite (if you can call it that) is that noticeable or severe. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you got a 1. Now that's just me so others feel free to disagree


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

robk: why not start a new thread? I am sure a lot of people would weigh in there and help you learn. That way, Liesje's original question gets answered here


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Rob, no at this point the dog is not a breeding prospect. He's intact but I'm not a breeder. I would like to obtain the survey since I will have all the requirements anyway and I think it's a good accomplishment for me and the dog's breeder. Also I plan on surveying my future breeding prospects so it is good practice. Other than the bite I have no concerns about this particular dog. He's a showline dog, good size (judges are getting picky on over size and weight, my dog is a medium sized male about 75lbs), not the greatest mover as he is not as extreme but he is not faulty. He has excellent color and pigment. He's been in 4 SV shows and is a UKC champion so I'm not concerned about him in the ring. Also I would like to earn a "V" rating with this dog (again if the teeth do not prevent it) which I understand cannot be done with a dog of his age that is not surveyed first. I would be perfectly fine with KKL2.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> robk: why not start a new thread? I am sure a lot of people would weigh in there and help you learn. That way, Liesje's original question gets answered here


I did not think I was hi jacking this tread. I was just asking a question to the OP about the subject of breed surveys and overbites.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

:shrug:
just trying to help...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You have had four SV judges look at his bite so far and he is SG so I don't see him being disqualified. The overbite looks the worst in the last photo. He may not V. Not sure if that is much help. 

Rob, bites probably have a genetic component as do missing teeth. This is why there are rules about how much of an overbite is allowed or how many and which teeth may be missing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> You have had four SV judges look at his bite so far and he is SG so I don't see him being disqualified. The overbite looks the worst in the last photo. He may not V. Not sure if that is much help.


Hopefully I can show you in person some time. He got 3 VP ratings and one SG when he was 13 months. At that same show, I tried to get a dental notation. The judge said the overbite at that time was borderline and told me he had a slightly older dog with the same overbite that corrected. Nikon's never corrected but didn't get any worse, maybe it's a little better. I did not/do not understand why the judge would totally overlook the bite in the show class and give the dog the top rating (second place to his half brother) and then excuse us from the dental notation (which was better than noting the overbite and sending it to the SV).

A few people have told me "it depends on the judge" which makes sense but isn't really helpful since I have no idea which judges care about which attributes other than presenting the dog. I guess unless someone says "don't do it" I'll do it if he's ready for the AD that weekend.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

And ironically Pan's teeth went from this to perfection (he has a dental notation) in 2 months time!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I remember being worried about my female Treue. Hers also straightened up and I learned not to panic when looking at puppy mouths.

What did Julie say? No, the Körmeister's comments and not dong the dental notation were not helpful.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

You are showing under Grewe for the breed survey, correct?
For what it's worth, he barely glanced at my dogs' teeth when they got their VP ratings in Dec. Of course, he will be more stringent during a breed survey, but it didn't strike me that he was overly concerned with teeth.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Julie said Johannes probably won't like Nikon because he will think Nikon is too small, but I wasn't going to show Nikon in the show since he already has an SG card and would not be eligible for a V rating anyway, I was only going to do the AD and survey (if I decide to bring him at all). She said she doesn't think the teeth alone would get him disqualified, but if I decide to do it I'll be sure to practice everything else so there's no reason to fault him. I guess I'll wait and see if I can actually get him ready for the AD in time and how he's looking closer to the show. His coat is really nice right now and he's at a nice weight but the tips of his ears are kinda bad.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Lies, have you asked Robin? She would be the first one to ask, in my opinion.

Good Luck...I hope you are able to get his breed survey!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I believe I did a long time ago when Nikon was still young but the consensus was wait and see how the bite develops. He's 3.5 now so it is what it is.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

His teeth look gorgeous to me ...poor Rorie every time she smiles I laugh-the judge probably wouldn't-Good luck with the breed survey


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would go to another judge for a breed survey - regardless of the teeth - and for the AD as well....Grewe is not a "recognized" Koermeister....

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It looks like either Grewe or Karen MacIntyre, is she "recognized"?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

nope - there are no USA Koermeisters who are "recognized" - the SV judges say this does not count - so if you go to get a V under an SV judge - the dog is not koered....at least that is what I was told by Scheld

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well crap. I was told to do USCA b/c I don't have a-stamps (and am not paying for a FOURTH set of x-rays for the same dog, already OFA Good). So are BH, SchH1...any of the trial results recognized?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Hunter has a very, very slight overbite with an otherwise beautiful bite.. when did Pan's correct itself? Perhaps Hunter's will?

I was told that a very slightly overbite will be overlooked.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are a lot of people doing survey in the USA under Grewe. I personally could care less if it is recognized by the SV. They don't recognize my dogs' elbow ratings either. 

Yes, the working titles are recognized by the SV and if done under the USA or GSDCA-WDA judges that have the SVF designation they are recognized in Germany too. 

Of course if you never plan on showing in Germany, who the heck cares.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly, at least with this dog, he's not being bred and not going to Germany, and I'm not doing a-stamps b/c that's a waste of my money.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wild Wolf said:


> Hunter has a very, very slight overbite with an otherwise beautiful bite.. when did Pan's correct itself? Perhaps Hunter's will?
> 
> I was told that a very slightly overbite will be overlooked.


Pan's bite was terrible through teething (like some teeth dug into his gums, his I-teeth overlapped rather than fit together, he had a bad overbite and the top teeth stuck out). I did his dental notation at 13 months and at that time his bite was perfect. All teeth present in their place, "scissor bite", no mention of overbite. I believe Hilde has a double premolar.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Pan's bite was terrible through teething (like some teeth dug into his gums, his I-teeth overlapped rather than fit together, he had a bad overbite and the top teeth stuck out). I did his dental notation at 13 months and at that time his bite was perfect. All teeth present in their place, "scissor bite", no mention of overbite. I believe Hilde has a double premolar.


Fascinating! Hunter never had a terrible overbite, but it is present. At almost 9 months old I know his head will grow a little more, so I feel pretty confident it will correct itself. Thanks, Lies. :3


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Question for the two of you....where do you think the overbite came from? Just curious.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Question for the two of you....where do you think the overbite came from? Just curious.


Not sure... Pan and Hunter are half brothers on dam side.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm confused. So, if we show Kastle and do Ike's breed survey (who has BH, AD and SchH I) do they not count or something? I don't get it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I will have all the requirements anyway and I think it's a good accomplishment for me and the dog's breeder.


Maybe Julie will pay for Nikons entry fee's so you won't be out the $$...I bet he'll do just fine.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Well crap. I was told to do USCA b/c I don't have a-stamps (and am not paying for a FOURTH set of x-rays for the same dog, already OFA Good). So are BH, SchH1...any of the trial results recognized?


Wait a second, Andrea Mix from the SV itself said that as long as the microchip or tatoonumber is on the OFA certification they WILL accept OFA A not sure what OFA A is, if it is excellent or good though. Is it possible to get a certification that puts the tatoo or chip number on there in order to send it in to the SV?




> Sehr geehrte Frau XXX,
> 
> das OFA „a“ wird von uns anerkannt, wenn auf der Bescheinigung die Tätowier/Chipnummer eingetragen wurde.
> 
> ...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I know a few people locally who are currently re-doing the BH since their original BH was under a DVG judge who is not SV. The SchH3 was done under a SV judge, so he qualifies under that, just not for the BH.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

bocron said:


> I know a few people locally who are currently re-doing the BH since their original BH was under a DVG judge who is not SV. The SchH3 was done under a SV judge, so he qualifies under that, just not for the BH.


You'd think they'd use some common sense. 

Clearly if a dog has the SchH3 of course he'll qualify and get through the BH too... after all he's got the SchH1/2/3 :help:


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

If you are not going do anything in Europe, you can get your BH, AD and IPO titles under a USA/SVR (SV recognized judge). OFA xrays are acceptable.

If you are doing pure SV, from BH to IPO, etc, do under a SV judge. OFA hips are acceptable for SV, OFA elbows are not. So, you need to ensure that you have an "a" stamp on the elbows.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Right. At this point I do not care if the SV recognizes the titles or surveys. Even if I *were* going to breed one of my dogs, it would not be in Germany, the dogs would be AKC, UKC, and USCA registered, not SV registered. I'm not re-doing elbows or anything just to get a-stamps when I'm already personally satisfied that the dog has sound joints (they've been x-rayed multiple times by a top radiologist and both OFA'd).

Pan is getting a-stamps but that's just to make the whole process easier, and because he's not 24 months old (OFA min.).


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

My trainer told me that Johannes told him that he is a SV judge so I'm not sure if he can do SV or not


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Johannes is a SVR (SV Recognized) judge. That was the designation that the SV gave the UScA judges in the US.

Only SV judges are those that go through the SV program. There was one UScA judge that passed away a few years ago that was going for his SV license.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> The dog is what it is, he's always had an overbite and I really don't care because it is purely an aesthetic fault,


Forgive me if it seems like nit picking but a scissors bite is not just aesthetic. Cochise has a perfect scissors bite. When passing a cat he'd take a fast 'snip' & a clump of perfectly scissored fur would drop off. Initially I gave my daughter grief b/c I was sure she was cutting it off. The edges were so neatly scissored with no tearing or pulling. And then I saw it for myself! Not that a lesser bite is a serious fault, but the scissors bite is definitely functional.

Lies, you've mentioned that Nikon has lower back/tail/vertebrae problems. Would this impact the breed survey?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Clearly if a dog has the SchH3 of course he'll qualify and get through the BH too... after all he's got the SchH1/2/3 :help:


I agree, it is pretty bureaucratic.
Just like I am baffled when people list their dog's titles and put "Fluffy vom Bitehaus, BH SchH3". Why do you need to say BH? If they got the 3 he obviously completed all the prior titles to get there .


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> Forgive me if it seems like nit picking but a scissors bite is not just aesthetic.


For me, a bite that is functional and does not require any intervention (we've probably all seen the REALLY bad ones that require vet attention) is perfectly acceptable. As long as the dog can do protection work, sheep herding lessons (including using the mouth when appropriate), tug, catch the ball in flyball, rip apart raw food...I don't really see how having an absolutely perfect bite make one dog any more or less breedable as long as a dog can easily perform all the natural functions with their mouth. The worse the bite is the more likely the dog cannot do these things, at least not without dental intervention. Perfection is of course desireable but I'd like to see even a KKL1 dog that is absolutely perfect, without any minor fault. The standard allows for some imperfection, even double teeth and missing teeth are still acceptable. This is just my preference, others may be super picky about perfect bite alignment. I see the difference akin to OFA Excellent vs. OFA Good....IMO passing is passing and I wouldn't want to make breeding decisions based on such minor, inconsequential faults rather than looking at the overall picture. I'm picky about how the teeth fit together, like I'd personally take more of an issue with the canine teeth not fitting together properly even if the front of the bite is perfectly aligned. JMHO



> you've mentioned that Nikon has lower back/tail/vertebrae problems. Would this impact the breed survey?


You would think so but apparently not. TV is noted on the OFA certificate (and in the public database) so it is there for anyone to see but apparently has no impact other than making actual breeding decisions (if I were breeding and had a dog with TV I felt was breedable, I personally would not breed to another dog with TV).


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lies, I don't think minor bite anamolies should exclude a dog from breeding. For whatever reason, I do love that perfect scissors bite, but it's only slightly more important than loving black sable coloring. My only point-& admittedly, it was a quibble-is that it's not "...purely an aesthetic fault."

What does 'TV' stand for? Do you know how prevalent it is in the breed? Do you know what the long term sequelae are? Do you know the genetics of the condition, ie homozygous, heterozygous, plygenetic?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is probably better than trying to explain since I'm no expert:
TRANSITIONAL VERTEBRAL SEGMENT, TVS

ETA: looks like this on the OFA cert


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Anyway*....the verdict seems to be....do the survey if I feel like doing it (this depends on several factors not having anything to do with the dog), the teeth aren't going to make the difference.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The following has some info. It seems to still be an emerging picture.

http://www.siriusdog.com/tvs-cauda-equina-syndrome-spondylosis.htm


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes I've read pretty much every article out there I can understand without a background in veterinary medicine. We've had some threads specifically addressing these conditions. A few other forum dogs have it.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Go ahead and do the survey, it's fun to do and like you said will look good for her parents. We've done a half dozen dogs in the past few years, we aren't breeders, but had fun doing it anyway. (One we did for someone else who wanted to use one of our males to breed to, so that was useful, but the rest were never bred, just had the KkL).


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