# Aggression incident today - still okay to train schutzhund with my dog?



## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

Hello,

*Background:*:

I know not all dogs are cut out for schutzhund and I wanted to get this group's honest opinion if I should continue training Schutzhund with my dog (a *8.5 month WL GSD* only been training for 2 weeks, brand new to the sport as am I).

I live in a city and have been taking my dog everywhere since I got him at 2 months. We have not had any aggression issues out in large crowds and I would consider him to be well socialized.

*Today's Incident:*

My dog can be very territorial of our house, or my personal space if we are in a remote area for an extended period of time. Today I was hiking with him off leash and we took a 10 minute breather to sit and relax. A non threatening old lady came up to us on the trail and he sprinted straight at them and started barking aggressively. 

*Question*:

Is it a good idea to train protection work in a dog who exhibits these aggressive behaviors? I am new to the sport but don't want to continue if it has any risk of increasing these behaviors.

I only want to do schutzhund if it can help me get control of my dog in these scenarios without risk of increased aggression. 

Thanks for your insight and opinions.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

What does your club/helper think? He's young and maybe still learning who is a threat and who isn't. Schutzhund training should help with that.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

IMO whatever sport you are training for is irrelevant.You need to work on his recall and try your utmost to catch him before or as soon as he alerts and give him something else to do(sit,down,or heel).The more he practices the unwanted behavior,the harder it becomes to unteach.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

ausdland said:


> What does your club/helper think? He's young and maybe still learning who is a threat and who isn't. Schutzhund training should help with that.


I havent had a chance to talk about this incident with them yet. However they seem happy to train my dog because he has great drive and is showing good progress for two weeks... I just dont know how selective they are about what dogs to train. I will inquire more this week.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

coloradoshep18 said:


> I havent had a chance to talk about this incident with them yet. However they seem happy to train my dog because he has great drive and is showing good progress for two weeks... I just dont know how selective they are about what dogs to train. I will inquire more this week.


The whole sport is obedience based, it should help train him to keep his focus on you unless he or you are presented with a threat. Unless he has a screw loose, he should figure out who's a threat and who isn't.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> IMO whatever sport you are training for is irrelevant.You need to work on his recall and try your utmost to catch him before or as soon as he alerts and give him something else to do(sit,down,or heel).The more he practices the unwanted behavior,the harder it becomes to unteach.


Do you think e collar is appropriate for teaching off leash recall?


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

^ i'm not dogma13 but have to say a resounding yes to the e collar, sure helped me with that.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

ausdland said:


> ^ i'm not dogma13 but have to say a resounding yes to the e collar, sure helped me with that.


Ya i cant think of how else to proof the offleash recall... today i didnt have a split second to refocus his attention before he took off.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Do you think e collar is appropriate for teaching off leash recall?


Only to proof it.He needs to understand the command thoroughly in different scenarios in and out of 'drive'.It just confuses the dog if he doesn't understand that the correction is for disobeying a command.When they get excited and amped up they tune everything else out.Hopefully your trainer can help you with this.Here's a pretty good overview on understanding e collar basics.http://k9handler.com/e-collar-basics/


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## andywhite (Dec 18, 2017)

My girl did that like 2 days ago (and 1 week ago, and 1 month ago) and she's not involved in schutzhund at all.

I don't think schutzhund has anything to do with that at all. If anything, he will learn more obidience.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Kona is not aggressive but she will do the same exact thing if we are hiking and someone “pops” up. Yet she can be off leash at the crowded beach and she is totally fine.


We just started e collar training to help with this.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

What happened after he barked and charged. Just curious.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I'll add my 1 year old would do the same but he isn't agressive just doesn't know how to handle the situation (impluse control) and/or exactly what I expect. E collar as I'm learning is not a replacement for leash work and teaching in many scenarios. Your dog is still really young. I just started e collar work btw. At the 2nd session we were put back to long line work no e collar but told to up the distractions and taught how to handle the distractions.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The best thing you could do for your dog is Sch/IPO training if it is available to you.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I have a dog that would have that tendency (he is 10 months old) had my trainer taught me to not let him. It took a couple of hard corrections with the prong before he tweaked that I make those decisions, not him. He was becoming protective too early (at 7 or 8 months) and apparently that is based more in a lack of confidence than being brave and protective. It can be worked through, and we are having success...but you have to recognize, accept it, then train to build handler focus, OB and confidence. Also accept a lot of it is genetics. So you will have to manage whatever training does not correct. Safety is priority 1. 

Handler focus and OB are the foundation of everything. The focused heel of dog sports can get you out of a LOT of sticky situations. The focused heel is something we are working hard on. His nature is to scan. Which is fine sometimes..AFTER you get the focused heel down. If a trigger comes by (which at this point his only trigger is when dumb people come up and start hugging on him and stuff without asking and before I can stop them-and quite frankly I don't blame him) I want to be able to get that focused stare. I had poo pooed it, now I value it, understand it, and am training for it. 

Solid recall is another lifesaver. So I say yes, look to IPO. Playing and winning tug with a helper etc will build his confidence, which will make him feel less threatened "just because someone else is walking by" 

I have a friend who has a very dog aggressive GSD, but you would not know it. When she says Fuss! he would ignore another dog peeing on his head. He has such solid focus and OB, that a potential bad situation is under her control. 

Whatever you do, get a few things solid, preferably with a trainer before you let him off lead again anywhere. It is terrifying for someone to be bluff charged by a GSD..or not bluff charged, even worse. People out enjoying the day do not deserve that. You can work recall on a 6 ft lead, in your house, in your yard..just make sure he is solid with distractions and he knows it 100% what is expected of him before you start "proofing". An ecollar is great for proofing, but not for teaching. So once you know he KNOWS recall and would be willfully ignoring it should he ignore it, then e collar corrections can help a ton. Again, best to have a trainer show you timing and levels with an e collar. Used incorrectly it can makes things worse. 

Good luck! And keep us posted.


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

Looks like you let him off leash too soon.
His recall should be bomb proof before you let the leash off.
Work on that first. If you want him to have more freedom, use a 20 or 30 ft. line.
How is his obedience for the rest? 

The e-collar is definitely a great tool when your dog AND YOU are ready. 
Best advice is to talk to the people in the club.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I disagree with slapping an e collar on this dog and calling it a day. This dog obviously doesn't know who is a proper threat, and shocking him while he's acting aggressive could make him more aggressive towards non threat people I would venture. I would put him back on the long line and work on recall and obedience. I would not leave it up to the dog to decide who is "a threat" but show and teach him through experience and your guidance. Letting an aggressive dog off leash with no recall in the woods is a disaster waiting to happen... I hike the woods often and I would NOT want to run into you!!! Also you can run into some crazy people in the woods your dog should be bomb proof... just the other day we ran into a crazy lady who got on all fours and proceeded to growl and bark at my dog. She was mentally unstable. My dog ignored the lady and recalled back to me. What would your dog have done in this situation? You never know who you might run into is my point... could be someone scared of dogs, could be someone crazy. Someone scared of dogs might run and invoke a prey drive response in your dog. If your dog is off leash he should be bomb proof. Your dog needs more obedience work. Personally I wouldn't let an unstable dog do schutzhund, it could just be the dog is young or it could be bad breeding and a loose screw. I'd ask your club and get him evaluated. It's a tough decision to make but it's the responsible one... better to keep others and your dog safe.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There is a typical misunderstanding about the use of e collars to proof off leash. It’s not necessary to teach recall, but if you decide to use one, get training. It’s not used as a punishment but merely to get the dog’s attention and remind him of what he is supposed to be doing, which is returning to you. It does not promote aggression if the dog is used to it, if it is used at the lowest level needed to get attention and it is never used as a correction, only to speak to the dog from a distance. If you go that route, get a trainer who uses it only in that way. Be prepared to take a while to wean him off of it. It’s not a slap on, rip off kind of tool. It can be misused but it can also be a good learning tool if used properly. I’m not sure you need one, though, if you put the months in it takes to teach a leashed dog to be safely off lead.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Ya i cant think of how else to proof the offleash recall... today i didnt have a split second to refocus his attention before he took off.


I use it in the way LuvShepherds describes, more to gain her attention not punish. I also use it in Schutzhund training on low level when she looks away or forges ahead during heeling. It's just one tool in the tool box.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

ausdland said:


> coloradoshep18 said:
> 
> 
> > Ya i cant think of how else to proof the offleash recall... today i didnt have a split second to refocus his attention before he took off.
> ...


How long did you condition before using it outside ? I have done about 6 10 min conditioning sessions with my dogs. I’m taking it slow but I don’t want to take it too slow.
I have been following Larry krohns videos as I really like his training.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

konathegsd said:


> How long did you condition before using it outside ? I have done about 6 10 min conditioning sessions with my dogs. I’m taking it slow but I don’t want to take it too slow.
> I have been following Larry krohns videos as I really like his training.


I’m the wrong person to ask. I started using it outside for recall right away when she was 7 months old and she didn’t understand initially so I stopped using it for a while, kept recall positive and prayed. Someone else could definitely do a better job of describing how to condition the dog to the e collar. I fumbled around for a while before I figured it out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Do you think e collar is appropriate for teaching off leash recall?


I know people that can do all kinds of things with E. I've seen recalls, send outs, retrieves, all sped up with E. Its out of my league. For me this is more of a leave it situation, maybe to a point a call off if you're late. The worst thing is to be unprepared from this point on and allow him to get away like that, now that you know that he will. Whether its with the leash or the E, I'd look more at teaching him he's not going to do that, rather then trying to convince him to come back once he has.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

everybody just hold on for a minute.

Dog's description ----- well socialized in an urban setting with much exposure to crowds and all they entail -
WITHOUT EVER HAVING ANY ISSUE or concern -- from 2 to 6 months when they may be some temporary 
changes in the dogs perception of things.

Sounds like a GOOD dog. sane , stable, adaptable . (OR tell me more , provide more information)

so the scenario --- hiking in a remote area -- not likely to meet another person , you are deep into the "woods"
assumed distance because you, who sounds like a fit person, have tired yourself to the point where you need to
take a 10 minute breather.

you are probably resting with your back to a tree? in any case not standing , sitting or lying down which puts you
into a vulnerable situation - or that is what you telegraph --
A passerby might even wonder if you are okay.

A woman approaches or enters your protective bubble space.

The dog goes out barking . You say aggressively. How else would he do it .

Sounds like a perfect natural guard the object .

What did the oog look like when he went out to bark > Hackles . Pitch of bark .
You did not hear or see the person? If you did not there is a sneaky element.

If either party saw one another a call out - HI from either one of you would have given you the
opportunity to gather the dog and have him under your management --- .

You let your guard down. 
The dog did not.

What if it were someone with not good intentions. Young woman - already removed from any one there to help.
Then your story would have been - what a dog I have , he saved my life.

How far did the dog go out ? 10 feet from you? What distance did he keep from the other hiker when he went out
to bark ..

How did your dog recall . how did he settle. How was he when you proceeded to continue your walk or to return home.

This is very important information to consider before slapping on "training equipment" 

The dog naturally endowed with a very important breed specific characteristic -- protection -- is not that easy to find.

just look at all the e-print pages and pages on this forum even with "will my dog protect me" and the answer is
no -- and some sport dogs who are excellent in the routine - but are so prey oriented - or another group or two that couldn't do this - clueless , that drive missing.

I would love to look at the dog's pedigree . you can PM me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Hopefully you are with a good, experienced, talented training helper. As has been stated, IPO or schutzhund is all about CONTROL. Obedience is the foundation of the entire test. All dogs know how to bite - IPO work teaches them when it is appropriate and inappropriate. Your helper may focus on control work more than strike and grip. He also should be able to help you with appropriate use of an e-collar. 

A long line and a pinch are probably your best friend for social outings with your pup....he may just be starting into his butthead teen phase!

AND - everything Carmen said - DITTO!!!!!

Lee


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

For me, I wouldn't care about his temperament or intentions in this case. I don't want him doing it, period.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I was going to suggest a long line too. I sometimes use one if I’m training in a park, for example, with leash laws, but I would not in a hiking area where it could get tangled in brush or other things. My older dog was off leash in a wooded area, and got stuck under a huge fallen tree with a lot of sharp twigs attached. It was like a tight canopy above her. I wasn’t watching and didn’t see her get under there, but she was clearly stuck. I could not get to her. She had to figure it out for herself, squeeze down flat and back out to free herself. I was very grateful she was not on a long line. I’m also lucky she is independent and didn’t just whine and wait for me to get her out. Which is getting off topic, but back to the original, I also agree with Steve, the barking needs to be under control and so does the dog.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

carmspack said:


> everybody just hold on for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See now, I would love to discuss this further as my dog did the same thing at 7 to 8 months. I attributed it to good protection instincts and what not. He ONLY did it (and never off lead..I still do not do off lead in public, I feel 10 months is too young) if we were together in a dark parking lot and someone was approaching..situations like that. And when people walked up to us slowly, staring at him. From what I was told, at that young of an age, it was not protective instinct yet, it was lack of confidence, nerves, whatever you want to call it. 

However, from my non trainer eye it appeared to be a young strong brave dog trying out his instincts. However, 2 breed savvy trainers felt otherwise and instructed me to correct it. 

I ask because it did go against my gut feeling. Good in crowds, good with company I welcome into the home, loves kids, fine with strangers I am engaging with..he just does not like what I would call isolation/eerie situations where we would be screwed if it WAS someone with bad intentions. What do you make of it? I mean at the pup stage not as an adult? 

Because I agree with what your assessment is, but have been told otherwise.



Steve Strom said:


> For me, I wouldn't care about his temperament or intentions in this case. I don't want him doing it, period.


^and that is my trainer's philosophy. 

Would love to see it discussed further for myself as well as for OP, because my dog would have done the same thing at the same age.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have to wonder how far from you the dog moved while 'protecting' you.

I have a dog who is trained for nothing, but if someone approaches me while I am 'down' she will stay close, between me and the 'threat' and bark like a demon. Until I tell her I got this, then she quiets and watches. 
I worry more about dogs who run off to chase people and certainly would work to a solid recall, but the defense of an owner is something that should be an integral part of any dog. Trained or not. 
Without seeing the dog in action it is impossible for anyone to say what the motivation was but the age and description of events make it likely that the dog was startled by an unexpected intruder, likely distracted by lovely scents and sounds, and reacted in alarm. Age and maturity level play into the scenario.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> For me, I wouldn't care about his temperament or intentions in this case. I don't want him doing it, period.


why not ?

if the dog did nothing what value is the dog to the person or the breed ?
this was an unlearned response --- 
now the handler has some awaremess .

the dog assessed the situation .

the handler and dog are equally inexperienced .

the dog should have been on lead .

the handler then could then call the dog back or pre-empt the dog's actions once the handler
has assessed the situation 

young woman alone in an isolated area - "someone" approaching -- there would have been a cascade of body chemistry from her that the dog would have picked up on


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this was a true to life test .

It reminds me so much of the Swedish mentality tests.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there should have been some verbal exchange from the other hiker -- a call out 

I would call out for sure . From a distance I want to see what I am walking in to , decide to proceed , detour or
go back .
If I see a dog I want to see if it is restrained with a leash or long line .
I want to see the attitude of the dog and the handler, give that handler lots of opportunity to get things under control.

I want to not startle the handler to some reflexive self protection if they are carrying a gun .

how many dogs poop themselves when they are "tied out" and you have someone suddlenly
appearing - Swedish mentatlity and one of the selection tests for dogs taken in for training and
certification


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Any of my malinois, without training and from basically 8 weeks would react the same way if allowed. They would rush at the 'threat' barking, and circling. It's pretty typical behavior for a dog from certain lineage. My husky wouldn't even dream of it. Genetics. 

This is not at all OK to allow. 

I also wouldn't bite-train a dog that is doing this without control. You are risking teaching the dog to rush and bite. Sure, I know IPO is about control, but control on the field and control out in the woods can look like two very different things, or "pictures" to the dog.

Once you have this under control, absolutely, IPO is fine. But honestly, if I were at the club, I'd advise that you stick to just OB and tracking and wait on protection until you are where you want to be with hiking recalls. 

I hike all the time with my dogs, out in remote areas. A few times I've been out in the middle of nowhere, and suddenly- there is someone right there. Every time, my dogs looked to me and I called them in and went around or heeled them off trail to let the person pass. 

I worked hard to get there with my dogs. Once you've trained one dog to get there, it gets easier. In fact, dogs tend to pack up, so if one dog recalls, the others follow. So training the others gets easier. 

People who don't do it often tend to not realize how different and even challenging it can be to train a naturally protective or suspicious dog to look to the owner first when out for a hike. Some dogs almost look at it as out for patrol, out for a pack walk, makes sense they'd want to drive off other people and dogs. It's quite hard-wired in some breeds or lines. I'm not saying it's IPO3 obedience, but there is another element to it. 

Also, I would say this behavior tells very little about the relative nerve strength of your dog. Even my uber-friendly, super trustworthy GSD would naturally be a bit barky or suspicious in this scenario- and only in this one. It's a tricky deal, and approached through a combination of obedience and PRACTICE.

Every day we are out hiking I practice the recall, and insist it is immediate and that they stay in a close heel for a time after, for just such a scenario where we encounter a person out of the blue. It becomes a muscle-memory thing and is just part of what we do.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Muskeg;8970305
People who don't do it often tend to not realize how different and even challenging it can be to train a naturally protective or suspicious dog to look to the owner first when out for a hike. Some dogs almost look at it as out for patrol said:


> This is where we are with training and correcting the same type of behavior OP described (along with dark parking lots, etc). He no longer gives a booming bark or tries to lunge towards whoever is approaching...what he does do now is he gets closer to me ( I usually have him on a 6ft lead) and LOOKS at me intently. That came from correcting his independent decision making to posture to certain situations. I have wondered about the right thing to do, because I may not always be able to make the decision and I don't necessarily want him staring at me if he sees something I don't. Conflicted on that. Do we train to allow our dogs to be protective when they feel they need to be to keep ourselves safe, or do we train to minimize liability in life? Or a little of both?
> 
> I also do not buy it when I was told it was nerves. In other words I think he became protective at an early age not because of "nerve" issues, but because of protective instinct. I do buy the lack of confidence. He is a pup, and without direction he was on guard.
> 
> This is one of those areas where I have received conflicting information, much like what we see here on this thread. I imagine without actually seeing the dog's body language though it would be hard to fully tell the nature of the charge/barking.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

carmspack said:


> everybody just hold on for a minute.
> 
> Dog's description ----- well socialized in an urban setting with much exposure to crowds and all they entail -
> WITHOUT EVER HAVING ANY ISSUE or concern -- from 2 to 6 months when they may be some temporary
> ...


Thanks for this - yes its a VERY good sane stable dog... thats why I just wanted to confirm with everyone that an incident like this shouldnt prevent continued Schutzund training because I havent run into it before. I also realize this was my fault by having him off leash when he was not ready.... didn't consider the fact that a remote area could have different implications than an urban one for off leash/ general behavior.

Yes I was sitting down and the person approached from behind me. Yes he saw the person before I did. He ran probably 50 feet up to the person and after barking on his way up to her he backed off after reaching her and barking a bit.

It's hard to say how he settled because after backing off the lady he saw another off leash dog in the distance and he ran away to say hi ( I know... wont have him off leash again for a long time). He was normal on the rest of the walk and passing other people on our way into town even though i was shaken up.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> why not ?
> 
> if the dog did nothing what value is the dog to the person or the breed ?
> this was an unlearned response ---
> ...


You can get sued or lose your dog. I'm not saying the dog did anything wrong, and I'm not guessing at the motivation of it or what the op meant in his description of protective or territorial. I'm saying that now you know he will, I'd bet parts of Colorado have similar leash and dangerous dog laws as California, so you better make sure your dog is under control. 

My preference for a response would have been a lot more neutral, just aware of a non threatening older woman, but what matters now is the training.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

Thanks Muskeg - It seems like a good idea to me to hold off on the bite work until the recall and obedience is really proofed in all of these scenarios. I'll get to working on it too.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Thanks for this - yes its a VERY good sane stable dog... thats why I just wanted to confirm with everyone that an incident like this shouldnt prevent continued Schutzund training because I havent run into it before. I also realize this was my fault by having him off leash when he was not ready.... didn't consider the fact that a remote area could have different implications than an urban one for off leash/ general behavior.
> 
> Yes I was sitting down and the person approached from behind me. Yes he saw the person before I did. He ran probably 50 feet up to the person and after barking on his way up to her he backed off after reaching her and barking a bit.
> 
> It's hard to say how he settled because after backing off the lady he saw another off leash dog in the distance and he ran away to say hi ( I know... wont have him off leash again for a long time). He was normal on the rest of the walk and passing other people on our way into town even though i was shaken up.


I'm not knocking your dog in any way, or anything you did or didn't do. It happens, now you know your dog will go forward towards something that bothers him, so in real life away from Sweden, you can't allow the behavior. Its not the same as a controlled environment where no one gets bit and the randomness of it can be a problem for you if you don't teach him not to do that, period except in an appropriate setting and under your control. IPO can help you there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Thanks for this - yes its a VERY good sane stable dog... thats why I just wanted to confirm with everyone that an incident like this shouldnt prevent continued Schutzund training because I havent run into it before. I also realize this was my fault by having him off leash when he was not ready.... didn't consider the fact that a remote area could have different implications than an urban one for off leash/ general behavior.
> 
> Yes I was sitting down and the person approached from behind me. Yes he saw the person before I did. He ran probably 50 feet up to the person and after barking on his way up to her he backed off after reaching her and barking a bit.
> 
> It's hard to say how he settled because after backing off the lady he saw another off leash dog in the distance and he ran away to say hi ( I know... wont have him off leash again for a long time). He was normal on the rest of the walk and passing other people on our way into town even though i was shaken up.



THAT is a GOOD dog and a GOOD GSD.

hope that he is appreciated . 

hope you have a good dog-sense trainer .


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

carmspack said:


> THAT is a GOOD dog and a GOOD GSD.
> 
> hope that he is appreciated .
> 
> hope you have a good dog-sense trainer .


He is very much appreciated  ... Im working on the trainer part, touring local clubs to find the best trainer possible.


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## coloradoshep18 (Mar 30, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not knocking your dog in any way, or anything you did or didn't do. It happens, now you know your dog will go forward towards something that bothers him, so in real life away from Sweden, you can't allow the behavior. Its not the same as a controlled environment where no one gets bit and the randomness of it can be a problem for you if you don't teach him not to do that, period except in an appropriate setting and under your control. IPO can help you there.


Thanks Steve,

Definitely - Not acceptable! Now that i know he will do this, ill adjust accordingly. Glad you think IPO can help... Will continue with it


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

strom "so in real life away from Sweden, you can't allow the behavior. "

so in real life America the dog passed with flying colours.

the handler now knows her dog. Sometimes these well balanced , self secure dogs don't react because there is no reason 

well here was a reason . The dog showed his character .

people are often shocked because they see one side of the dog --- now the owner knows proactive team work

adding

people with dogs that are reactive are themselves conditioned to be hyper vigilant 

this dog is not a loose cannon . He continued to be his normal self quickly after .

do put the dog on a long line - even to protect him from being running after game or getting
into a rumble with other dogs - and they might be the instigators


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Spack "so in real life America the dog passed with flying colours. "

Maybe in Canada, but honestly, I wouldn't put that much significance on it. A learning experience for both of them, sure. What you just added in though, about the recovery, I'd put more significance to that then the bolting.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Hey ColoradoShep, did you read the Schutzhund Village article? Schutzhund Village

" Passive defense reaction
The passive defense reaction is split into two separate forms to give us our three divisions.

The strong passive defense reaction. This reaction is one that we see in confident and strong dogs. The dog uses threatening displays such as barking, growling and gesturing while confidently standing his ground. The big distinction is that behaviors other than biting appear as the first responses to the trigger stimulus. And because the initial response is not physical, I classify this reaction as passive. Why a passive or non-physical response appears before the biting response can have different causes. One major one is simply the predetermined behavioral response pattern that the dog was born with. Another cause in highly social dogs is that they realize the threatener is human, and the biting response is inhibited, so other forms of defense behaviors are used first. I do not believe that dogs who show this type of reaction are any less tough or strong than dogs showing the active reaction. Generally dogs who fall into this category of passive defense can be taught to bite in defense quite readily. They will bite when a threat cannot be driven back by other means and continues to advance.
.....................................................................................................................................................
The weak passive defense reaction. During this reaction we can see the dog using threatening displays such as barking and growling, etc., but he is retreating to maintain a safe distance. How quickly a dog will retreat will vary. These types of dogs are definitely weaker and have less confidence than the two types discussed previously. They will only bite as a last rsort when retreat is blocked and the threat continues to advance. This falls into the category of fear biting and is everything but an active response.
There are a few more points I'd like to mention regarding defense drive. I strongly believe that these three defense drive categories are predetermined and that this predetermination sets limits to how much we can change through training. Comments like "we need to put more defense into this dog" make me cringe and feel sorry for the dog. All we can do is work with what the dog brings with him. Less mature dogs generally cannot show either of the two strong reactions, so the only defensive reaction that can be elicited from them is the weak passive reaction. The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. This is an important point to remember when working with young dogs.

Maybe your 8.5 month old pup is too young to show true defense agression.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Excellent post nurse bishop !

this could stand as the beginning of a new thread .

category #1 - perfect

nurse bishop said "There are a few more points I'd like to mention regarding defense drive. I strongly believe that these three defense drive categories are predetermined and that this predetermination sets limits to how much we can change through training"

agree !

nurse bishop said " Comments like "we need to put more defense into this dog" make me cringe and feel sorry for the dog"

again -- agree ! 

and nurse bishop said "All we can do is work with what the dog brings with him. "

and here we saw a beautiful natural untrained action from the dog so you know what he brings with him.

some fun


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> Excellent post nurse bishop !
> 
> this could stand as the beginning of a new thread .
> 
> ...


Thats Armin Winkler you agree with, Nurse Bishop copied and pasted from an article.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I noticed my own GSD at about that 18 month age, she changed. She alerted to something in the night. There was a bear in the yard. I held her back by the collar since I did not know what she would so. She stood on her hind legs and pulling me forward, had a deep ferocious bark I none I had never heard. The bear ran away.

Again she did this when some strange men drove up in the yard in trucks. Both these times the 'threats' retreated. I have read this is a good thing for young dogs just trying out their defensive drive. You want them to win and not go into fear. 

Again, this spring, she removed a sounder of wild hogs, this same deep powerful bark. I like it.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Definately risky, you never know the type of people you may run into in these situations. Some folks may be more passive and others more extreme in their reaction. Any game chasing can end up very badly as well. Best to keep the leash on until they earn that freedom.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My WL will bark at people if he thinks they are a danger, but he growls first giving me time to check it out. At home, I encourage him to bark to alert me, then I decide if it’s time to stop. When we are out, I can stop it from escalating almost immediately by telling him to back off. If I think it’s a danger, I have a bark word which tell him to keep going and he will continue to bark his growls bark until I call him off. He is not trained in IPO or PP, it’s something I have worked very hard to achieve.

Your location defines how much you allow your dog to do. If you live in an area where dogs are very restricted, you can’t allow them to aggress at people. It can’t happen unless it’s a toy breed. They are immune from restrictions and negative public opinion.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats Armin Winkler you agree with, Nurse Bishop copied and pasted from an article.


So? what is the point . Nurse Bishop never claimed to have been the author .

here is the opening statement from Nurse Bishop "Hey ColoradoShep, did you read the Schutzhund Village article? Schutzhund Village "

so thank you again Nurse Bishop for having found this and sharing this with the forum.

very clearly laid out.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

carmspack said:


> everybody just hold on for a minute.
> 
> Dog's description ----- well socialized in an urban setting with much exposure to crowds and all they entail -
> WITHOUT EVER HAVING ANY ISSUE or concern -- from 2 to 6 months when they may be some temporary
> ...


To the OP...this was clearly the true reason for your dogs behavior on the trail...you're luckier than many here...you've got a really good example of the breed.....from reading your posts-I think you already know what you'd do different....next time you're both out hiking


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

shane's dad said ".you're luckier than many here...you've got a really good example of the breed....."

TRUE - exactly , and getting harder to find .

this is what I want .

I will take that dog any day .

so now the next thing is to find a good training club , with a good director and decoy that know dogs and don't press on with a training schedule or inflexible , one-size fits all approach.


remember this -------
"nurse bishop said "There are a few more points I'd like to mention regarding defense drive. I strongly believe that these three defense drive categories are predetermined and that this predetermination sets limits to how much we can change through training"
agree !

nurse bishop said " Comments like "we need to put more defense into this dog" make me cringe and feel sorry for the dog"
aain -- agree

You have a good balanced dog . You need good balanced training . You don't need to excite defense .
Appreciate the dog's connection to you and work with strong firm consistent and fair expectations of behaviour and response . Use your appreciation and acknowledge good behaviour with your approval . The dog works for you 
not a prop.

Play it right and you might see "genetic obedience"


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Gsds who are naturally protective are a lot of work, so you have a lot of consistent training ahead of you to make sure they do not get into unnecessary deep trouble in their younger years.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> So? what is the point . Nurse Bishop never claimed to have been the author .
> 
> here is the opening statement from Nurse Bishop "Hey ColoradoShep, did you read the Schutzhund Village article? Schutzhund Village "
> 
> ...





> agree !
> 
> nurse bishop said " Comments like "we need to put more defense into this dog" make me cringe and feel sorry for the dog"
> 
> ...


Sorry, I must have confused this and thought you missed the link to the article.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thank you @Nurse Bishop for posting that article. After reading it 3 times I can say without doubt my dog is Passive Defensive. However, it started at 7 months, same age as OP's dog. 2 trainers said they diod not like to see it before at least a year. And the articles states it is not TYPICAL to see it before a year. So what are thoughts on it at 7 months? Same thing, just an early bloomer, or is it rooted in something lese (i.e nerves) that has not emerged yet?

From the article:

" The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. This is an important point to remember when working with young dogs."


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

coloradoshep18 said:


> Thanks Steve,
> 
> Definitely - Not acceptable! Now that i know he will do this, ill adjust accordingly. Glad you think IPO can help... Will continue with it


If you're still reading this, I think your title say's it all. An incident. Articles and videos, all the descriptions of defense and aggression are fine, but when you aren't sure what you're seeing with your dog, the last thing you want to do is try to apply all this to your dog. None of it fits in an exact order of things like it may read. Obedience and behavior are the two things you can always fall back on. If he sits and doesn't bolt, you don't have a problem. For over 5 years until he grew out of it I watched a labradoodle bolt from his owner at the park and charge up barking at people, my dogs, kids, everything. I know its a different breed, but its still just a behavior and whatever was going on in his head at that time, that's what matters. You have plenty of other opportunities to assess his temperament.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

I've lost count of the times I've been charged, barked at, growled at, and lunged at by other peoples dogs (off lead), sometimes while with my dog but also when dogless. (never a gsd, btw, but once a bouvieur 'puppy' armpit high, and another time (very intimidating) a lone (no human in sight) pyrrenees or other lgd, that one scared me). 

I think it's great that you are taking it seriously and asking for advice here (this a great place for advice), but it does seem a pretty common behaviour: it's great that gsd owners take this seriously and kudo's, but not the 'end of the world'. 

Taking responsibility for your dogs behaviour is awesome, I'm not sure if you need to intensively analyze anything but your ability to control your dog at this point, and the appearance of control., 

For the record, I inherited a 'loves everybody just like a lab' gsd (long time ago) and she did this too (not offleash), as in, acting different, "guardy" in lonely places (on remote hiking trails, not popular ones) and also when I had a picnic in a densely enclosed forest meadow. It surprised me the first time, and I learned to anticipate it. She was otherwise a complete sweetheart with everybody.

I've seen it in other peoples dogs (on camping trips), dog barks at me, and the owners very surprised.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

CometDog said:


> Thank you @Nurse Bishop for posting that article. After reading it 3 times I can say without doubt my dog is Passive Defensive. However, it started at 7 months, same age as OP's dog. 2 trainers said they diod not like to see it before at least a year. And the articles states it is not TYPICAL to see it before a year. So what are thoughts on it at 7 months? Same thing, just an early bloomer, or is it rooted in something lese (i.e nerves) that has not emerged yet?
> 
> From the article:
> 
> " The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. This is an important point to remember when working with young dogs."


Depends on their definition of 'strong reaction'.Gsds typically begin showing discrimination/reactivity between 4 months to around 9 months.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

OP this is a little off topic but still relevant I think, in your intro post didn't you say you were scared of getting an aggressive shepherd that might bite or act aggressive towards people? I think it's important to note that the situation you described your dog acted in a very natural way although still inappropriate. He needs to be able to differentiate better on what is a real threat and what is not, a little old lady is certainly not... wonder if she was scared or giving off bad intentions? Or maybe you were projecting your own fears? Dogs pick up on those things. This is your first GSD correct? I'm curious why you started schutzhund if you didn't want a dog who bites? What changed your mind?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one of the gifts the DDR and Czech dogs brought in was one of the breed characteristics -- suspicion.

this has to be balanced.

too little and you have a dull dog --- too much and you have a loose cannon.

a dog who has authority needs to be trained with (kind) authority


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

CometDog said:


> Thank you @Nurse Bishop for posting that article. After reading it 3 times I can say without doubt my dog is Passive Defensive. However, it started at 7 months, same age as OP's dog. 2 trainers said they diod not like to see it before at least a year. And the articles states it is not TYPICAL to see it before a year. So what are thoughts on it at 7 months? Same thing, just an early bloomer, or is it rooted in something lese (i.e nerves) that has not emerged yet?
> 
> From the article:
> 
> " The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. This is an important point to remember when working with young dogs."


IMO 7 months is too young to see defensive aggression. Inga barked at people when she was a puppy, but this defense bark and behavior is a whole different deal. She still has the regular happy bark at people we pass on the road, the alarm bark when she sees something out of order on the ranch or the road through it. She has the higher piched annoyed bark when my milk cow grazes too close to her run. But since last summer she has a new behavior, dragging me toward the threat and this bark that is more like a roar. Sure I have to hold her back by the collar. I don't know if she will get hurt by a bear or bite someone and its not worth finding out.

Thank you all those for pointing out that I did not write that Schutzhund Village article.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

From the article:

" The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. This is an important point to remember when working with young dogs."



dogma13 said:


> Depends on their definition of 'strong reaction'.Gsds typically begin showing discrimination/reactivity between 4 months to around 9 months.


Ma, the 'strong reaction' (from the article) the author was talking about is one of the two kinds of passive defense. The first, active defence, is the dog that just goes up and engages (bites) the threat. Then there is the strong passive reaction. Those dogs are socialized to people in such that they have bite inhibition and will try advancing with the ferocious bark. They may be compelled to bite if the threat advances on them. Then there is the weak passive (thats what he calls it) of the dog that barks and retreats or barks while retreating. 

From the article> 

" Defense drive
A lot has also been written about this topic, however, I feel it is an aspect of protection training that is often misinterpreted. Therefore I will spend some time discussing the defense drive. Defense drive definitely falls within the category of aggressive behaviors in dogs. But I think the biological significance of this drive needs to be examined closer in order to get a proper perspective.

Defense drive can appear in conjunction with other behaviors and drives, or as self-defense. Defense of prey, defense of territory, and defense of a weaker pack member (such as a puppy) are common overlaps during which defensive behaviors will appear. I will address these overlaps a bit more later. For now I want to discuss self-defense.

Self-defense behavior does not only belong in the realm of aggressive behaviors. It also falls into the realm of self-preservation mechanisms. The trigger stimulus for defense drive is threat or the perception of threat. I'm sure you are familiar with a variety of techniques that are used to threaten dogs for the purposes of protection training. So I don't need to go into too much detail. One thing I want to point out though is that once the dog experiences a threat, he feels a worry or concern that harm may come to him. So the true trigger of defense behavior is the feeling of worry. This is a really crucial point.

The goal of defense drive is always the same, namely making the worry go away. This is achieved when a safe distance is reached between the dog and threatener or when fear is caused in the threatener.

I use the drive specific actions as a way to split dogs' defense behaviors into three divisions. The first major division is between the active defense reaction and the passive defense reaction.

Active defense reaction
The active defense reaction is a very aggressive form of defense behavior. This type of aggression falls in the category of re-active aggression. My description of the active defense reaction is that once the dog gets the trigger stimulus for the defense drive, he uses physical violence as a means to achieve his drive goal. I am deliberately using the term violence here to make a point. Dogs who show this reaction will resort to biting as the first or one of the first responses that their programmed behavioral pattern dictates for this drive. This is my personal line of distinction that I use when I assess dogs. The reaction is strong and powerful and stems from confidence in the dog. Dogs exhibiting this form of defensive reaction will go towards the threat and attack the threat physically. They show a clear "offence is the best defence" mentality.

Passive defense reaction
The passive defense reaction is split into two separate forms to give us our three divisions.

The strong passive defense reaction. This reaction is one that we see in confident and strong dogs. The dog uses threatening displays such as barking, growling and gesturing while confidently standing his ground. The big distinction is that behaviors other than biting appear as the first responses to the trigger stimulus. And because the initial response is not physical, I classify this reaction as passive. Why a passive or non-physical response appears before the biting response can have different causes. One major one is simply the predetermined behavioral response pattern that the dog was born with. Another cause in highly social dogs is that they realize the threatener is human, and the biting response is inhibited, so other forms of defense behaviors are used first. I do not believe that dogs who show this type of reaction are any less tough or strong than dogs showing the active reaction. Generally dogs who fall into this category of passive defense can be taught to bite in defense quite readily. They will bite when a threat cannot be driven back by other means and continues to advance.
.........................................................................................................................................
The weak passive defense reaction. During this reaction we can see the dog using threatening displays such as barking and growling, etc., but he is retreating to maintain a safe distance. How quickly a dog will retreat will vary. These types of dogs are definitely weaker and have less confidence than the two types discussed previously. They will only bite as a last rsort when retreat is blocked and the threat continues to advance. This falls into the category of fear biting and is everything but an active response.
There are a few more points I'd like to mention regarding defense drive. I strongly believe that these three defense drive categories are predetermined and that this predetermination sets limits to how much we can change through training. Comments like "we need to put more defense into this dog" make me cringe and feel sorry for the dog. All we can do is work with what the dog brings with him. Less mature dogs generally cannot show either of the two strong reactions, so the only defensive reaction that can be elicited from them is the weak passive reaction. The strong reactions rarely appear in dogs before 18 months of age. This is an important point to remember when working with young dogs.

As with all drives, the stimulation threshold is a factor during the assessment process. In this case the threshold is, "at what point does the dog feel concern or worry?" This threshold can be raised through deliberate confidence building exercises. "


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

The last line of above discussion "This threshold can be raised through deliberate confidence building exercises."

I have read that when you have a young dog that is begining to show strong passive defense, they must not be allowed to loose. In training excersise the threat always retreats. You don't want their fear drive to overcome defense drive and develop the habit of extinguishing defense and go into fear. Thats what I read, I have not done Schutzhund training. But it so happens that when Inga has shown strong passive defense aggression she has been held back and the threats retreated. I built her confidance so I guess that was a good thing at this stage.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I agree, as my young dog is "winning" tug against helpers you can see his confidence growing and his OB is improving right along with it as a result. Like when you get this look lol OP- a good established club would be a really good thing for you. I know it has helped us, regardless of whether we choose to go for BH/IPO. Just even being around sound dogs is a good thing.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

From the article " Self-defense behavior does not only belong in the realm of aggressive behaviors. It also falls into the realm of self-preservation mechanisms."

It is funny when I remind myself that in defense agression Inga is not protecting me, she is protecting herself.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

ComerDog, I like to see those pictures of the GSDs holding the sleeve of the helper in their teeth. Do they think they have ripped their arm off?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I think so lol There is a definite "parade" after that final release. He trotted a good 100 yards back to the truck the first time he got it off a helper..it's like they are taking it back to their lair hahaha. This pic is in front of my house and the door blocked him from taking it into his crate 

All this is new to me, it is fun seeing the "I won this thing" victory parade and stuff like that for the first time.

I hope OP is still reading, as in general I am learning a lot from it and we are in similar situations.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> OP this is a little off topic but still relevant I think, in your intro post didn't you say you were scared of getting an aggressive shepherd that might bite or act aggressive towards people? I think it's important to note that the situation you described your dog acted in a very natural way although still inappropriate. He needs to be able to differentiate better on what is a real threat and what is not, a little old lady is certainly not... wonder if she was scared or giving off bad intentions? Or maybe you were projecting your own fears? Dogs pick up on those things. This is your first GSD correct? I'm curious why you started schutzhund if you didn't want a dog who bites? What changed your mind?


I disagree! How is a dog supposed to know if a strange person, in a strange place, is a little old lady. What neutralized her for the dog? Small??, old lady???....the dog understands that a “little old lady” is harmless?? Can a little old lady carry a gun or knife, or sneak up on you.....if the dog’s action was natural for the dog then I don’t think it was inappropriate....I expect my dog to react differently with the unknown and in strange places than home and someone they know. Dogs don’t reason like people?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> I disagree! How is a dog supposed to know if a strange person, in a strange place, is a little old lady. What neutralized her for the dog? Small??, old lady???....the dog understands that a “little old lady” is harmless?? Can a little old lady carry a gun or knife, or sneak up on you.....if the dog’s action was natural for the dog then I don’t think it was inappropriate....I expect my dog to react differently with the unknown and in strange places than home and someone they know. Dogs don’t reason like people��


Um, don't react unless they're an actual threat to you? So you think it's appropriate for a dog to just harass and bite any person it comes across? Jeez good luck keeping your dog.Maybe my dog just isn't stupid because he knows when someone is scared, or angry, or weird and he acts accordingly. When someone is friendly he acts completely different. I expect my dogs to know better. He has a lot more reason than most people.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I disagree! How is a dog supposed to know if a strange person, in a strange place, is a little old lady. What neutralized her for the dog? Small??, old lady???....the dog understands that a “little old lady” is harmless?? Can a little old lady carry a gun or knife, or sneak up on you.....if the dog’s action was natural for the dog then I don’t think it was inappropriate....I expect my dog to react differently with the unknown and in strange places than home and someone they know. Dogs don’t reason like people?


Discernment with a little bit of experience thrown in? This wasn't the first time the dog was ever hiking.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

If I were resting in the woods and anyone or anything approached I would expect my dog to react. In this case the young, inexperienced dog took it a bit far. OP is aware that this dog needs better control before being off leash again but we all live and learn. 
When I had to hitch hike with Shadow last summer I was dozing roadside, awake for 36 hours, and someone approached us. At about 10 feet Shadow went nuts. He apologized, said she was a good dog and shrugged it off. He was just making sure we both had water.
I praised her. She did her job, recovered nicely and forgot it. That's in essence what the OPs dog did, so I see it as a good effort by an unschooled team.

We learn from our mistakes, not so much from our successes.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Um, don't react unless they're an actual threat to you? So you think it's appropriate for a dog to just harass and bite any person it comes across? Jeez good luck keeping your dog.Maybe my dog just isn't stupid because he knows when someone is scared, or angry, or weird and he acts accordingly. When someone is friendly he acts completely different. I expect my dogs to know better. He has a lot more reason than most people.


Noooo, I do not think a dog should harass and bite ANY person it comes across. I didn’t read that the lady was friendly, or known to the dog....just an unknown person approaching in an unfamiliar location. I wouldn’t want my dog to run up and bite the person( which the dog certainly could have if he wanted) no more than I would want the dog to run up to person with tail wagging. The dog’s behavior was acceptable to me naturally although on the high suspicion side, that really only needed the owner to have reliable recall that Sch training would give him. There is a reason that the originators of the breed necessitated that the level of obedience that Sch provides is part of suitability testing for temperament....and part of the reason is that the traits exhibited by this dog is within acceptable limits for this breed and therefore these dogs should have adequate training and boundaries taught so discernment can be enhanced. 
I don’t know how stupid my dog is compared to your expectations, but I find that the dog reacted naturally although stronger than the dogs many people possess....that doesn’t make the dog “inappropriate “ in my opinion. 
But we can certainly agree to disagree on this?.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Discernment with a little bit of experience thrown in? This wasn't the first time the dog was ever hiking.


Was it the first time it smelled or heard or saw this lady( because those are means the dog determines what’s approaching) , because I don’t think “hiking” was the problem....but again I could be missing something.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Discernment by a dog is generally a myth. If you let the dog decide, you're depending mostly on whatever that dog's genetics happen to be and some are more suspicious and some are not. It has little to do with intelligence. I'm not saying dogs aren't capable of thinking in more complex ways, but the "run and bark" instinct is hard-wired into a lot of GSDs, and is totally normal. It's up to the owner to control when that dog is allowed to do this because nobody out for a nature hike wants to be rushed by a barking GSD.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I like this thread it made be see better how schutzhund/ipo training can be very beneficial since Max is a dog with natural suspicion. I had learned a lot from our mistakes in his younger days.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes- I have learned so much through working with my extreme "one person" dog. I think that has taught me more than anything about how dogs think about threats, and how strong genetics are in dog behavior.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Gsds who are naturally protective are a lot of work, so you have a lot of consistent training ahead of you to make sure they do not get into unnecessary deep trouble in their younger years.


I don't find this to be the case. No more work than my others that were less so vs my current. I also believe that GSD's that are naturally protective "should " be the norm. This dog reacted with good instinct. Additional training will be needed . Sounds like great natural instincts to build on.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Muskeg said:


> Discernment by a dog is generally a myth. If you let the dog decide, you're depending mostly on whatever that dog's genetics happen to be and some are more suspicious and some are not. It has little to do with intelligence. I'm not saying dogs aren't capable of thinking in more complex ways, but the "run and bark" instinct is hard-wired into a lot of GSDs, and is totally normal. It's up to the owner to control when that dog is allowed to do this because nobody out for a nature hike wants to be rushed by a barking GSD.


I probably think like you, if they're observing, they're discerning something. The run and bark part of this incident, for me that's a pretty low threshold, especially for a dog that's had the exposure this one has. I don't see it as any great, significant measure of breed worthiness, more like a dog that will chase bikes. I think the OP gets it, now he knows and he knows to put a little work into it. But just like Cliff, its always possible I'm missing something.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

RockyK9 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Gsds who are naturally protective are a lot of work, so you have a lot of consistent training ahead of you to make sure they do not get into unnecessary deep trouble in their younger years.
> ...


German shepherds are more work in general period. Some have more suscpcion then others and some have All different levels of traits. Some german shepherd are easier to train then others. This is a young dog male gsd and often if you let a young dog choose he will act like a fool every now and then. Do not see where the real disagreement is.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> German shepherds are more work in general it’s period. Some have more suscpcion then others and some have more of a protective traits. Some german shepherd are easier to train then others. This is a young dog male gsd and often if you let a young dog choose he will act like a fool every now and then. Do not see where the disagreement is.


 I agree if you let him choose for sure. I have a young male currently ,not as young as the dog mentioned . My current dog has very strong protective traits and suspicion but I knew this when I got him. In this case he is actually the easiest to train of the three GSD's i've had but I do realize that although I do not wish to discourage appropriate aggression it is up to me as the trainer to ensure he knows what is okay . 

You said GSD's that are protective are a lot of work. The disagreement I guess is that I don't find the " protective " element to be any more work at all . Its just about behaviour and training . The work is the work regardless.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

RockyK9 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > German shepherds are more work in general it’s period. Some have more suscpcion then others and some have more of a protective traits. Some german shepherd are easier to train then others. This is a young dog male gsd and often if you let a young dog choose he will act like a fool every now and then. Do not see where the disagreement is.
> ...


Aah to me is more work because it was the first time I trained a young gsd so I’m comparing to other dogs who are not gsds. Solid recall is a must so was a complete new experience and to get a dog to listen to me who has a high drive, protective and young - Yeah was work but surely paid off -fantastic animal. My second female not as intense so a big difference in training . My first gsd was already trained.


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