# GSD Almost Shot Today by Police



## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

Was doing the morning chores (breakfast, dishes & trash) and heard persistent unfamiliar barking. Went outside with the trash and saw two neighbor men who own big dogs too walking away from my home down the street with two dogs, one a rat-dog mutt and another a GSD, near them very agitated and barking.

At same time, school children and parents in their cars were gathering on my street to let the kids out as I live only a half block from an elementary school. These neighbors were interposing themselves between the dogs and the kids walking to school. The GSD, in particular, was being VERY AGGRESSIVE towards one of the these fellows, a large dumb-as-a-rock plow-boy who is an imposing and menacing sort of guy who was eye-locked on the GSD.

I recognized the dogs as belonging to a neighbor on the opposite side of the block and went back inside to get my motorcycle gloves (elbow length and padded), a leash, a tuna tailer (a fishing tool which is something like what the dog catchers use to snare dogs), a can of pepper spray and half a burger paddy that I'd prepared for my own GSD's breakfast. I also had the wife call the owner who said she'd be there right away.

As I walked down the street to the fricas it became pretty clear that the plow-boy was exactly the wrong guy in exactly the wrong frame of mind to de-escalate the situation. He was responding to lunges from the dog with lunges of his own even though most of the kids were now gone from the street and there wasn't anyone to protect. The other neighbor was on the phone to the Sheriff's Department.

I calmly walked near the GSD and he turned on me and lunged. I rewarded him with a chunk of hamburger paddy, stood my ground and spoke to him in a gentle, non-threatening way. At first, he ignored the treat but then began taking them, all the while keeping his eye on the brutish plow-boy. I asked the brute to leave and he retreated to the opposite side of the street and stood in the yard about half-way up.

I kept treating the GSD with paddy bits and his barking and, in particular, his snarling and showing of teeth diminished to the point that he gave me only a single warning bark before taking the treat from near me and then from my gloved hand. I then went to one knee still offering the treat with my gloved hand.

The GSD was initially surprised at my change in position and barked aggressively. I didn't flinch, but rather, continued to offer treats and speak softly and reassuringly.

I think a dog feeding and a dog willing to aggressively bite are two incompatible things. Hence, my strategy to de-escalate. And, we appeared to be making progress.

Owner shows up and with a brief command collected both dogs into her car. She thanked us, took from me the remainder of the burger paddy and left.

Three different cops showed up in different cars and got out when they saw that I had dog wrangling equipments with me. All were agitated and eager to end the confrontation that had already ended.

They asked if I owned the dog that was menacing the school children. I ran the story down to them and they said that had they gotten there when the school children were being threatened they'd have shot the dog, and maybe even both dogs, straight away. I was dumbfounded.

I told them the dogs were being agitated by the plow-boy who, despite his own ownership of a GSD didn't seem to know that his out-of-control protective emotions were influencing how the dog reacted to the situation, that his aggression engendered fear in the dog and that the dog was fear reactive, that he was the one who either instigated the dog or, at a minimum, was escalating rather than de-escalating the situation.

They said they'd still have had to shoot the dog. Then they asked for the address of the owner and vowed to ticket her.

Is shooting a dog the only reaction the authorities have anymore to a fearful dog? Sure seems like it. Shooting two dogs only one of which was large enough and aggressive enough to harm anyone. Shooting any dog without first trying to de-escalate the situation.

Sure seemed trigger happy to me. The dogs were reacting to the threats of a dumbie, not preying on the kids.

LF


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

Longfisher said:


> I shooting a dog the only reaction the authorities have anymore to a fearful dog? Sure seems like it.


short answer?, yes


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

glad there was someone like you to take control.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Not exactly sure what a 'plow-boy' is.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you for saving those two dogs.

In answer to your question, yes unfortunately police tend to shoot dogs first and might ask questions later.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

They have a duty to protect the public. If a large dog is loose and threatening to bite children, what do you realistically expect the cops to do?

A dog like that needs to be managed better and contained by it's owner, so it's not finding itself in that position.

Glad the dog and the kids were unharmed.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

That's a new one on me too unless you're out plowin' the back 40.

Police officers who don't know anything about dogs are more apt to shoot than those who do. And those that do are in the minority.

Ignorance is bliss as they say.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MichaelE said:


> That's a new one on me too unless you're out plowin' the back 40.


Oh...so maybe he was standing there barefoot, in coveralls & straw hat with a piece of hay hanging out of his mouth.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I am guessing a plow-boy is a big, dumb, tough guy Glad all are safe and the owner better make sure to keep her dogs contained or this will happen again and not have the happy ending.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

possibly the OP is not in (or from) the USA.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Plow-boy*

plow·boy (plou′boi′)
n.
1. A boy who leads or guides a team of animals in plowing.
2. A country boy.

I'm from Texas and live here still.

The implication is that the one who agitated the GSD was unsophisticated.

I see this is going to be twisted into a discussion of colloquial expressions rather than a discussion about the cops' readiness to shoot two dogs.

Oh, well. This is one of the strangest forums I've ever visited. I shouldn't be surprised.

Maybe you could post a list of terms acceptable on this board?

LF


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I've heard it used before here in the northwest, basically "big dumb oaf"


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm pretty sure the term plowboy is English


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

As well.. I don't know what a "plow-boy is?" Snow plow operator>?

You did right and a great thing. Simple, kids threatend - cops shoot. Sad but true. They don't have the time and it's not their job to CONTROL the situation in most cases. Had it been a 10 pound dog, different story.

Thanks for your quick thinking, the situation turned out better since you were there.


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## GSKnight (Oct 18, 2011)

opcorn:


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Longfisher said:


> I see this is going to be twisted into a discussion of colloquial expressions rather than a discussion about the cops' readiness to shoot two dogs.
> 
> LF


Not going to discuss colloquial expressions other than to say I don't prefer labels.


Here is a good piece on the issues: http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/Publications/e051116358_Dog-Incidents-508.pdf

Some nuggets from that piece follow:

1. Cops shoot at animals more than anything else.

"the majority of shooting incidents involve animals, most frequently dogs. For example, nearly three-fourths of the shooting incidents in Milwaukee from January 2000–September 2002 involved shots fired at dogs, with 44 dogs killed by officers during that period.6 Information furnished by various California law enforcement agencies indicated that at least one-half of all intentional discharges of a firearm by an officer from 2000–2005 involved animals.7"

2. When cops do shoot they sometimes miss and injure humans. 

"For example, in Detroit in 2010, an animal-control officer was injured when a police officer fired at two dogs that were running at large.8
An even more dramatic incident occurred on July 23, 2006, when NYPD officers were called to mediate a tenant–landlord dispute. When a dog at the building began biting the leg of an officer, 26 shots were fired at the dog, and three officers were grazed by bullets.9"

3. If force is absolutely necessary, use a taser. They are effective.

"A video of a real-time example of a safe, 
effective use of the Taser®—which 
ensures the safety of the officers, 
bystanders, and dogs, and provides an 
opportunity for effective community 
policing as well—can be viewed at www.
liveleak.com/view?i=a1d_1192690532."


4. "The use of a weapon is seldom required in dog-related incidents or 
encounters." Amen to that.

IMHO, guns are an absolute last resort to solving a problem. If a cop is afraid of dogs then the cop needs to be better socialized with dogs--failing that they shouldn't be a cop since encounters with dogs are common and the fear aggressive cop is a danger to himself and others. There are many non-lethal options such as tasers, pepper spray, etc. Start with using your head and diffusing the situation as the OP did. Don't come out guns blazing and ask questions later.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

** comment removed by admin. Does nothing to further discussion**

Your Avatar doesn't show you are from Texas. When I saw 'plow-boy', I thought perhaps it was a snow plow operator. Due to all of the adverse weather they are experiancing up north. I thought perhaps the snow plow operator jumped off the plow to gain attention of the aggressive dogs to save the children. I thought that was brave of him.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

It's a shame such a good deed gets ignored so people can pick a fight......

Thanks for saving this dog and being a good neighbor. To me, the term plowboy wasn't relevant because you provided a great description of the event. I don't know that I would have been as resourceful as you. With my luck by the time the cops got there I'd be duking it out with the plowboy for making the situation worse.


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## fredh (Sep 10, 2013)

My question is, What were these Dogs doing un attended by their Owners in a Public Place. ?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm glad the OP was able to be there and get the situation under control and, basically, save the dogs. 

I am discourage by the police response.

Back when I was moving to Arkansas, I had stopped for the night in SE Wyoming. As I was walking the late Barker Sisters the following morning, a cop car slowly went past. Here he came again, slowly. I was worried because I was traveling alone with my dogs. They had been with me all night but I had no witnesses if something had happened that night.

He stops. (#$ I'm thinking) He says "Can I pet your dogs? I just love these dogs!" You bet, sir, you can pet my dogs! Whew!! 

There are LEs out there who know dogs, who like dogs, who behave appropriately. We need more of them.

[FredH - accidents happen. I venture to guess that most of us have occassionally screwed up and left a gate open, had a door pop open or something like that. We will never know how the dogs got loose. Point here is they did, a board member was, fortuitously in the right place at the right time and did the right thing.]


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Freddy said:


> It's a shame such a good deed gets ignored so people can pick a fight......


There was no intential fight to be picked. I asked a simple question. I have enjoyed reading the OP's posts in the past. They are normally well-written and entertaining. 

It is sad that one term can draw the focus away from the actual act. I am from the country, as well as my husband and now my child. If the term was meant to imply that the person was ignorant because they are from the country, I do find that offensive.


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## Abby142 (Oct 16, 2012)

I find it rather troubling that the cops were going to shoot the dogs in an area that (from my understanding) is a neighborhood with people, a school, and small children all in close proximity. If they miss who knows what they could have hit.  Sounds to me that that is a situation which should include trying anything else first and shooting last.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

That was directed at the dumb comment.... 



Lilie said:


> There was no intential fight to be picked. I asked a simple question. I have enjoyed reading the OP's posts in the past. They are normally well-written and entertaining.
> 
> It is sad that one term can draw the focus away from the actual act. I am from the country, as well as my husband and now my child. If the term was meant to imply that the person was ignorant because they are from the country, I do find that offensive.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

LF I am happy that you were able to difuse this and the dogs got to go home with the owner. 

Owner probably needs a ticket. 

Thanks for helping out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This thread probably has had 17 notifies and will probably be shut down, but may as well comment while I can. 

Glad the dogs didn't get killed. 

Don't blame the cops if they killed a dog that was menacing school children or plow boys, even if the plow boy was causing the dog to be more agitated. Sorry, owners need to keep their dogs contained. Accidents happen. There is not much difference to loosing your dog when it gets squashed in the roadway, or loosing your dog being shot by a cop. The remedy is to keep your dogs properly contained, and stop letting accidents happen. 

I'm from the country too, and while we may have our share of big backwards oafs, we certainly do not have the monopoly on them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Hey, could you guys cool it with the swearing and pseudo swearing (including ****)? Neither is allowed on this board. 

Thank you,

ADMIN


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I spelled losing, loosing, not once but twice! Wow! In the same post saying that country folks aren't all big backwards oafs. LOL! Guess spellin' wassnt all that 'portant at the country schul.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Update*

Owner was ticketed, twice. Once for allowing the dogs to menace school children and the second time for tying a bleach bottle to the collar of the smaller dog so the smaller dog wouldn't be able to squeeze through the bars of the wrought iron fence. She said the dogs never get loose. The cops pointed to the Chlorox bottle as evidence that they did.

I've warned her before about the appearance of that sort of thing and the warning included that she might be ticketed if someone complained. I told her it might be interpreted as cruelty.

Offending dogs got loose, according to the owner, when we had a power outage of about an hour during the previous evening which, again according to the owner, deactivated the lock on the wrought iron gate which encloses the driveway.

I have to accept what the owner claims. But I never saw an electrical lock on a gate that didn't fail safe in the locked position. So, I suspect the gate wasn't closed properly by someone and she was trying to avoid blame. But who knows.

I talked to most of the moms who regularly drop off their kids and they said that the dog was at the school yard about a block away first causing trouble. They said the school crossing guard first shooed them away from the school. It's an elementary school so the kids are really, really small.

Oaf, plow-boy, hero, whatever chose not to talk to the cops. In fact, he sort of slinked away when they approached me. As I'm sure he was the one who picked up the trail of the dog and that he was the one who caused the incessant barking in the first place which drew me and other neighbors out of our homes I was surprised he didn't want to tell the tale to the cops. He just walked away and when he got 50 yards away turned to look over his shoulder and quickened his pace like a crook or something.

Say what you like, but I pay attention to people's mannerisms and expressions. That's probably from my time in a lovely little garden spot 
SE Asia in the 70's.

Anway, he was in no hurry to relate his encounter with the dogs to the cops. Strange.

LF


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

Fail Safe means they open when power is dropped..most egress locks HAVE to be fail safe by code in case there is a fire or other situation where power is cut off..that way you are not locked in. So if they used an actual egress mag lock or electric strike on their gate it would definitely open if the power goes.

Fail Secure means they stay locked when power is cut ( they need power to open , as opposed to fail safe needs to power to stay locked) . Fail secure devices usually have a push bar or big green button near the inside of the exit so that you can get out if power is cut.

( use to design and sell security gear ) 

Thanks for being a decent neighbor. You actually made me think to have some stuff like that handy as we have a few less than friendly frequent escape artists here and while I would LOVE to see their owners fined I do not want to see the pooches hurt.

And thanks for your service ( I take it you are a Veteran )


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

Good job on handling the situation. You were very cool headed when a lot of people (including myself) would have probably went into oh crap mode

As for having to shoot a dog, dogs have the ability to kill people, especially a child. As for less lethal force, humans understand the reason behind pepper spray or a taser. Ow this hurts im going to lay down and put my hands behind my back. Dogs cant do that, if you spray a fearful dog and it gets more agitated and attacks you then what? Your going to want a gun or someone with one or else you might not be going home.

or if your child was killed by a dog and the cop said to you taser didnt affect it, didnt want to shoot it...

Not trying to take away from your accomplishment, just contributing to the discussion


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

TommyB681 said:


> Good job on handling the situation. You were very cool headed when a lot of people (including myself) would have probably went into oh crap mode
> 
> As for having to shoot a dog, dogs have the ability to kill people, especially a child. As for less lethal force, humans understand the reason behind pepper spray or a taser. Ow this hurts im going to lay down and put my hands behind my back. Dogs cant do that, if you spray a fearful dog and it gets more agitated and attacks you then what? Your going to want a gun or someone with one or else you might not be going home.
> 
> ...


According to Wikipaedia data, 31 fatalities due to dogs happened in the US in 2013. Of these fatalities 11 of them lived with the victim, 3 were the babysitter's dogs, 1 a grandparents, 1 an aunts, 5 belonged to people in a home they were visiting, and 3 belonged to neighbors. Leaving about 7 fatalities due to dogs that people encountered out on a walk. 

Of these deaths, 
11 were 4 years old or under
7 were 5-7 years old
3 were 75 or over

Which leaves 10 people killed by dogs, (sorry pit folks, mostly multiple pits or pit mixes) between the ages of 8 and 74. Most of these were their own dogs. Many of them chained in a back yard. 


As of March 2nd of this year, the US is said to have 317.6 Million people. 

The idea that we should be worrying about or carrying guns to protect our lives because of dog fatalities is ludicrous. You may as well walk around with a lightning rod because your chances of being struck by lightning and getting killed are a whole lot better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

TommyB681 said:


> Good job on handling the situation. You were very cool headed when a lot of people (including myself) would have probably went into oh crap mode
> 
> As for having to shoot a dog, dogs have the ability to kill people, especially a child. As for less lethal force, humans understand the reason behind pepper spray or a taser. Ow this hurts im going to lay down and put my hands behind my back. Dogs cant do that, if you spray a fearful dog and it gets more agitated and attacks you then what? Your going to want a gun or someone with one or else you might not be going home.
> 
> ...


According to Wikipaedia data, 31 fatalities due to dogs happened in the US in 2013. Of these fatalities 11 of them lived with the victim, 3 were the babysitter's dogs, 1 a grandparents, 1 an aunts, 5 belonged to people in a home they were visiting, and 3 belonged to neighbors. Leaving about 7 fatalities due to dogs that people encountered out on a walk. 

Of these deaths, 
11 were 4 years old or under
7 were 5-7 years old
3 were 75 or over

Which leaves 10 people killed by dogs, (sorry pit folks, mostly multiple pits or pit mixes) between the ages of 8 and 74. Most of these were their own dogs. Many of them chained in a back yard. 


As of March 2nd of this year, the US is said to have 317.6 Million people. 

The idea that we should be worrying about or carrying guns to protect our lives because of dog fatalities is ludicrous. You may as well walk around with a lightning rod because your chances of being struck by lightning and getting killed are a whole lot better. 

Just as an interesting note, one of those kids tried to ride the dog like a horse. And was bitten once to the top of the head. The parents weren't two worried, and took 2.5 hours to get him to the ER. Thought he just needed some stitches.

One of the ladies that got killed from a dog she didn't know, jumped into the fence where the dog was kept. Well, duh? Sorry, but what is a 38 year old woman doing jumping into some dog's property?

Getting killed by dogs, is not as prevalent as it seems to be, because when it happens, it is news and highly publicized.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> The idea that we should be worrying about or carrying guns to protect our lives because of dog fatalities is ludicrous. You may as well walk around with a lightning rod because your chances of being struck by lightning and getting killed are a whole lot better.


Some really nice posts recently on this thread. By that I mean thoughtful rather than hateful.

Anyway, to the quote above.

I heard the same sort of thing about shark attacks when I was in the service and learning to scuba (CA, Phillipines, Taiwan, Red Sea, etc.). So, I dismissed the possibility of an attack.

Then I repeatedly saw attacks or near attacks WHILE I WAS SCUBA DIVING. I think that statistic is based on an average which includes all those who have never even seen an ocean much less been in the company of aggressive sharks. They will absolutely attack you and your gear on, at least, an irregular basis and that's the reason many film-makers wear mail armor.

I think the same goes for dog attacks. With my Zeus growing up as a puppy we've been attacked at least a half dozen times and we've been menaced more than that. All of the attacks and menacing were either in dog parks (twice before I stopped taking Zeus) or just simply walking my dog and there were strays or untethered dogs who took an evil interest in Zeus.

I ALWAYS JUMP RIGHT IN NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE HERE SAYS ABOUT IT BEING DANGEROUS. So, far we've (Zeus and I) prevailed every time. Pepper spray works wonders and don't let anyone tell you it doesn't. IT SENDS THEM SCURRYING BACK TO THEIR HOME TURF AND THE NEXT TIME WE SEE THEM THEY ARE THE MOST DOCILE LITTLE PUPPIES YOU CAN IMAGINE.


Anyway, I think the probability that a do might attack millions of people who live, essentially, away from dogs is irrelevant. What is relevant is the probability of an attack from a dog when you're engaged in activities that might invite an attack, like innocently walking your dog (or with sharks SCUBA diving).

LF


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Longfisher said:


> Some really nice posts recently on this thread. By that I mean thoughtful rather than hateful.
> 
> Anyway, to the quote above.
> 
> ...


Great, now dogs are similar to sharks. Sorry but a dog isn't an 800 to 7,000 pound toothy garbage can with fins. It's not the same thing. I was NOT talking about dog attacks where you have a scar at the end of it. I was specifically talking about deaths due to dogs. 31 in a country this size in a year's time, does not warrant people packing heat because some dog might attack and kill them. That's insane in my opinion. When you find that the majority of those attacks were to family members or close friends to the dog's owners, and to either very young children/babies or elderly people, the chances of an adult getting killed by a dog is something we should not encourage people to spout. 

When people spout crap like that, it plays into the hands of those that want to pass BSL, and makes it even more difficult to get home-owner's insurance, or to be able to rent places. Dogs killing people is so rare, that on average each state in our union has only a fraction of one death per year. People have enough irrational fears about our dogs, please stop thinking like this.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

fredh said:


> My question is, What were these Dogs doing un attended by their Owners in a Public Place. ?



That's an excellent question! I'd like to see the statistics of loose dogs that get hit and killed by cars each day? How many strays are picked up by each day and PTS by animal control? These numbers are in the 10's of thousands. When do owners begin to take responsibility for their dogs? When will people take responsibility when their dogs get loose?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lilie said:


> oh...so maybe he was standing there barefoot, in coveralls & straw hat with a piece of hay hanging out of his mouth.


lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thank you for your effort and for some good tips for those of us that try and help dogs in trouble!


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

selzer said:


> When people spout crap like that


Please justify you use of such uncivil language.

This is the sort of, well, crap that makes people think this board is filled with either teenagers with no control of their facilities or the beknighted and demented oldies who are similarly out of control.

It seems this sort of stuff always comes from the "regal" members of the board. Just what the heck do you beknighted members do to become beknighted, cuss like sailors?

LF


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Longfisher said:


> Please justify you use of such uncivil language.
> 
> This is the sort of, well, crap that makes people think this board is filled with either teenagers with no control of their facilities or the beknighted and demented oldies who are similarly out of control.
> 
> ...


Regal? Who's regal? I am not a moderator. If you do not like the use of a rather benign term, I am sorry. I suppose I could have used the term trash or garbage if you like that better.

But my 10th grade English teacher once explained the proper use of language, specifically swearing, and though that was decades ago, I used that term to make a point. I wanted to say something strongly. Because what you are saying, about dogs killing people, is a real problem. When people shoot a friendly dog at a dog park because they are afraid of the dog, and think lethal force is what is necessary, why? Because people are believing that dogs can kill people. People are believing that they can go out on a walk and get eaten by dogs. Do you realize this sort of fear-mongering damages people with breeds like ours? 

No, you are offended by an insignificant baby term, my seven year old nieces can use without repercussions. 

Whatever. 

Have a nice day. 

Go and scare some people about big dogs. 

Bring up scuba diving with sharks, is like taking a walk and being killed by dogs. 

I am getting too old and too cranky to hang out here I think.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Okay Lonefisher i have got to be completely honest here, the word crap is totally not uncivil i mean just check out this cereal.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Not sure why it matters if the potential for fatality is high or low. I'm with Longfisher on this one. He isn't trying to compare dogs to sharks (to take it that way is to misdirect and de-validate the entire point of his post). He's simply stating that STATISTICS can be misleading, and he gave examples. Also, when they are only looking at fatalities, of course they are going to be smaller numbers than attacks (even if the attack leaves a permanent disfigurement).

My hubby has several scars on his face and the iris of one of his eyes is lacking pigment in one area from a violent attack from two GSDs when he was 4 years old. He was standing on the fence of their property, they both stalked and attacked him, a four year old child...while his dad was talking to their owner just down the driveway. 

When it comes to a loose dog attack, I really don't care if the dog is shot dead or sprayed with pepper spray and lives to see another day lose, I don't care if death by dog attack is rare, I don't want stitches either....when it comes to my kid walking to school and encountering lose, aggressive dogs, I'd rather have the dog shot dead than even the POTENTIAL that my kid could be hurt. Sure most of the time I'd say, pepper spray would be great....however, I think this situation and the reasoning behind thoughts of deadly force, is pretty black and white. 

It also makes me think of people who ask why cops don't "aim for a leg or arm so the person has a better chance of living??" It's so silly, but I understand people who don't understand firearms, targets, and how fast someone can get to you even from 20 feet away...why they ask those kinds of questions. 

Why should someone have to take the chance because it's "only a dog bite and probably will be non-fatal?" That person should have to take a bite because it's so sad for the dog to die? 

Bottom line, owners need to take more responsibility for their dogs. Yeah, accidents happen, and we all hope common sense will be used, and a non-aggressive dog will be shooed away or grabbed by a good samaritan and taken to the pound. However, the expectation that someone should stop and use a non-lethal force, because it will "probably" work, is just silly to me, especially if the dog is being aggressive. 

I tend to be of the thought that pepper spray will be more than enough. LF, I think it's great what you did. I always have an extra slip lead somewhere on me, and have grabbed a few wandering dogs and taken them to the pound if I didn't know their owner. 

However, I think it's great what you did, for the kids...honestly I couldn't care less about the dogs or the plow boy lol. The fact that the cross walk person had to shoo them away and multiple people thought they were being aggressive (including yourself), I don't care what happens to them, I don't care if the aggression was because of fear, rabies, temperament, whatever....when it comes to kids and aggressive dogs, whatever means necessary I say. I wouldn't have faulted cops at all for shooting them....glad the owner was ticketed. I get what you're saying about your concern of "shoot first," but in this situation? Aggressive dogs around little kids trying to get to school? You really are surprised they were in the "eliminate the threat" mind set?

And Bleach bottle? Seriously? Haven't heard of that idea before lol.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> Regal? Who's regal? I am not a moderator. If you do not like the use of a rather benign term, I am sorry. I suppose I could have used the term trash or garbage if you like that better.
> 
> But my 10th grade English teacher once explained the proper use of language, specifically swearing, and though that was decades ago, I used that term to make a point. I wanted to say something strongly. Because what you are saying, about dogs killing people, is a real problem. When people shoot a friendly dog at a dog park because they are afraid of the dog, and think lethal force is what is necessary, why? Because people are believing that dogs can kill people. People are believing that they can go out on a walk and get eaten by dogs. Do you realize this sort of fear-mongering damages people with breeds like ours?
> 
> ...


Woah, so many of the problems you're listing have nothing to do with fear mongering "death by dog" (I think the bigger problem with people fearing our dogs are owners getting them, that think the dog barking, snarling, and snapping at any and every stranger around their home or themselves, is a "good" gsd.....and being proud of said GSD for acting like that). And everything to do with a lack of common sense...common sense that a dog with potential aggression shouldn't be at a dog park....common sense to leash your flipping dog....common sense to keep your dog properly confined...common sense when encountering a loose dog and deducing whether it's nice or aggressive (again...I don't care WHERE the aggression is coming from...the outcome is usually the same). 

Anyway, not sure what your points are in this thread? You would have understood if the dogs had been shot by police BUT you think it's ridiculous that people carry a weapon to defend themselves against aggressive loose dogs?? I don't understand your thoughts.


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## Arc (Aug 3, 2013)

My opinion is harsh and extremely pessimistic toward police and general people, so if your sensitive like most people here are, skip it and don't read.

First off, Thank you for taking the initiative to De-escalate the situation, the world needs FAR more people of this quality.

The "plow boy" likely slipped away because no one wants to have anything to do with a legal mess these days, or up to no good, few have any spine anymore. If someone is being attacked, look the other way, if you stumble over a body, keep walking. There are far fewer potential problems if you shut up and press on.

On the subject of the police being trigger happy, whats new?

I've had my property stolen twice, $250 value and out of all the people at my building, no one saw a thing, the guard even had the door shut! The police pretended to take my report seriously but it was nothing more than the laughing joke of the station and they probably went right back to ticket farming.

Few years back, some trespassing, plain cloths, police left me with a scar under my left eye. The nature of the job is the same as mine(infantry), it naturally attracts people with blood lust, loose screws, and anyone who is simply out to shoot something. Very few join for a good cause and usually all the good people leave. The bottom line is the police are usually the enemy now, even though my county has good people on the force, I don't trust any of them simply from experience. 

The average human life is worth about as much as reused toilet paper to me. Why you ask? Two years ago, my peers repeatedly threatened to soak my pet cats in fuel and burn them alive. I killed one cat myself with a breaching hammer and the other I hope stayed away from the area. I still deal with the guilt of betraying something that trusted me and how she died. I went over to that punk kid with the same tool and the only reason why I didn't strike and completely cripple him was that I did not want the brig time. Long story short it was a bad day for everyone and to this day I'm still taunted and harassed with comments from those people.
I have plenty more stories, like one of my old CO's drop kicking a puppy over the base walls, literally he kicked it over the wall. The same puppy was sneaked over to our base so it wouldn't be shot and of course was abused by an old squad leader. I had no knowledge at the time so I assumed he knew how to train a dog. Hes the type that will abuse but if you abuse him, he can't handle it. 

So by seeing more and more people demand blood and death against an animal because it has even the mere potential to hurt someone, spreads disease, or falls under "vermin" as if that is any justification, only reenforces its lack of value.

There are exceptions though and we stick together in our little groups and support each other when we can. Usually outcasts because we still have some degree of moral fortitude and chivalry. As for the kids, the last time I met a respectful kid was about four years ago. Kids also threw my kitten in the river, all I have to say about them is: dog food.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Arc said:


> My opinion is harsh and extremely pessimistic toward police and general people, so if your sensitive like most people here are, skip it and don't read.
> 
> First off, Thank you for taking the initiative to De-escalate the situation, the world needs FAR more people of this quality.
> 
> ...


I hope people here tick you off pretty quickly so you leave and don't come back.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

OP Thanks for helping save the dogs. I lived in a small village and was alwys thankful when a certain police officer was theone who came when I needed help w/ stray dogs . He was great w/ animals in general and Daisy loved him. He was the go to guy. He retired.I moved but I always try to keep my dogs either on leash ,in the yard or inside the house. If someone is afraid of dogs they all ready approaching any situation involving a dog w/ anxiety.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Sad News*

There's the absolutely beautiful-in-every-way 10 year-old little girl who lives in the same cul-de-sac where the German shepherd who is the topic of this thread lives. They live across the street from one another.

She came over yesterday to see Zeus as she's enamored with him (less so now as he growled at her a bit at the door, normal for Zeus for anyone). And, after Zeus settled down to his gentlemanly ways she related a story about that GSD...

...he and the other dog with the Clorox bottle around his neck get out all the time, dozens of times she's said. She says the dog menaces others when he's out too, including her.

She says she's afraid to go out of her house with that dog around and mostly doesn't do so unless either her Dad (who works long hours) is around or if she sees me and Zeus on our walks. Really sad.

Then she told me that her Dad went outside to run the dog off their property recently as the dog was menacing the kids and the dog chased and bit him. The father denies the bite. But the little girl says there are puncture wounds that her Dad is hiding.

So, it looks like we have a dangerous marauding dog in the neighborhood and I feel like a fool for having defended it.

I walk my yearling Zeus in the area of the neighborhood and even down into their cul-de-sac on a regular basis. That dog has always been very agitated by Zeus' presence in the cul-de-sac.

I've never seen him out before. But if he gets out as often as the little girl says he does it's almost inevitable that Zeus and I will encounter him one day when he's loose. It's probably just as likely that such an encounter would go sour and that this dog would be maced at a minimum.

I'm certainly not the only armed citizen in this neighborhood. Texas is full of them. That dog's marauding won't be taken lightly, I assure you.

I think I'll look over the County regulations on dangerous dogs and see if there's a way to petition the County to come out and do interviews with neighbors before the dog seriously harms someone, especially this lovely little girl.

LF


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As crappy as people can be sometimes, usually a dog is a repeated offender before the cops are called. 

This is probably the best indication that there is an over-population problem with dogs. If dogs were actually the luxury that they are, people would be a lot more careful with them, and wouldn't let them get into the position where they are shot by police. People who do not care, and have nothing to lose, wouldn't be able to afford them.


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

selzer said:


> As crappy as people can be sometimes, usually a dog is a repeated offender before the cops are called.
> 
> This is probably the best indication that there is an over-population problem with dogs. If dogs were actually the luxury that they are, people would be a lot more careful with them, and wouldn't let them get into the position where they are shot by police. People who do not care, and have nothing to lose, wouldn't be able to afford them.



Actually, I think it is a symptom of greed that people do not appreciate the value of that for which they do not have to pay anything.

If your only point of reference is money----then that which costs something other than money has no value.

The problem is not an overpopulation of dogs, the problem is the number of people who have not and will not learn the lesson of what is really valuable.
This seems to be a very hard lesson for some people to learn---and some people NEVER learn it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wetdog said:


> Actually, I think it is a symptom of greed that people do not appreciate the value of that for which they do not have to pay anything.
> 
> If your only point of reference is money----then that which costs something other than money has no value.
> 
> ...


I think too many people see dogs as easy to obtain and easy to disregard. They do not value them, whether you are talking about money, time, emotional energy. And these people hurt all of us when they act irresponsibly with regards to their animals. 

If you can get a puppy for free from your buddy, or for a free by the side of the road, or for a couple of bucks at the shelter, I think that a lot of people will see dogs as disposable. If those same people had to pay a significant amount for their dog, then maybe they would value it more. 

Maybe. 

A few years back I had a neighbor who had a husky mix bitch, a dog that was something between a Rhodesian Ridgeback and a pit bull, and a **** hound. 

They let the husky mix get knocked up three times in two years, and when I complained about her taking up residence in my shed, they chained her to her dog house. The Ridgeback/pit mix they let run loose attacking my dogs and their own. They let the husky's pups get smooshed in the roadway. But the Coonhound was worth money they told me. They kept him chained up. And then they chained the pit mix -- not because it was going after my dogs and me, but because it was going after their coonhound. They told me that. 

And people wonder why I really don't feel bad that the lady went belly up and had to move. 

Money isn't everything.


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