# Breeder help?PA



## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

Hi so we were looking around and weren't able to find any breeders that met our needs. I'm just looking to add a family companion not a $2,000 house dog. So if anyone knows breeders who are fairly well known,honest and don't charge excessively high costs please let me know anything is appreciated. I live around Philadelphia so anything around WV,NJ and PA works 


thank you


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Have you tried the GSD rescues in Philly? Working line are going to run average of 1800. German Show line anywhere up to 3k. 

You could check with Beth Dillenbeck in Clarks Summit. I know her and like her dogs. But they are showline so could be expensive.


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

I tried rescues and got sick of the 100,000 interviews and run around between them never responding or wasting my time. Right now I have a rescue gsd female things have changed alot in 4 years... I can live with $1000 unless I see something mind blowing which I haven't come across.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

I'm also in the Philly area and I adopted through AR-SEPA. They were wonderful. Very responsive and they didn't go crazy with interviews, paperwork, and meet and greets. They're not gsd specific and don't always have them, but I thought I would put the info or there.

My cousin went through All 4 Paws. Right now they have a gsd/lab mix who is being fostered by a therapist. The dog is doing wonderfully with her patients... She sounds like a dream dog. If you're ok with a mix, I would check her out...i believe her name is daisy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well basically for $1000, you will most likely get a back yard bred dog or from a puppy mill. They are out there, but you will really have to search for them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There is an 11 month old listed here for $500. No idea why so inexpensive.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/187511941259393/


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't understand why for a family companion your expected to shellout $2000, your'e telling me breeders aren't making a significant profit on a moderate range quality dog for $1,000?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

silverado said:


> I don't understand why for a family companion your expected to shellout $2000, your'e telling me breeders aren't making a significant profit on a moderate range quality dog for $1,000?


Nobody is expecting you to shell out $2k. You have choices.

No, good breeders are not making a killing at $1000 per puppy. 

They title their dogs. Training, traveling, seminars, gas. My dog is 2. I bet I have close to 10k in him in initial cost, training and travel and he's not titled yet. 

They vet their breeding stock. OFA's cost and average of $500 per dog. Any additional testing is typically $100 per genetic test. 

They pay stud fees. Those could vary from $500 to $2000.

Good breeders don't just slap two dogs together.

And those family companions come out of the same litters as the working and show dogs. So why would they charge less because you choose to do something differently with your dog than I choose to do with mine?

There are many threads on exactly this topic on this board. I'm sure if you do a search you'll find more indepth answers from breeders on what it actually costs to produce a litter.


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## joeinca (Mar 19, 2015)

silverado said:


> I don't understand why for a family companion your expected to shellout $2000, your'e telling me breeders aren't making a significant profit on a moderate range quality dog for $1,000?


They are worth what people will pay for them. 

I know in PA there are a lot of Amish breeders (puppymill types) I'd steer clear of. Their prices would probably be in your range but I'd be super skeptical. Genetic testing, and pedigree are important to me so with that usually comes with a higher cost. $2000 for 15yr investment is worth it to me...but I do understand what you are feeling with the cost. I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find one in your price range that fits for you.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Nobody is expecting you to shell out $2k. You have choices.
> 
> No, good breeders are not making a killing at $1000 per puppy.
> 
> ...


I'll just agree with everything Jax has said on this thread. I'll add to that, well bred American show lines could run you up to $3500 for a pet.

Re the bolded, I don't think I'm $10k in with my 18mo also untitled dog yet but I also haven't done all the math. Different household budgets pay for different aspects of her care, training, and any competition work, so I'd be adding stuff from two different "cost centers" to figure that out. If "initial cost" includes her purchase price, I could be close. I'd be willing to bet a good breeder is already over that mark for a given dog by this age what with showing and any performance titling or training they're doing.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

joeinca said:


> They are worth what people will pay for them.
> 
> I know in PA there are a lot of Amish breeders (puppymill types) I'd steer clear of. Their prices would probably be in your range but I'd be super skeptical. Genetic testing, and pedigree are important to me so with that usually comes with a higher cost. $2000 for 15yr investment is worth it to me...but I do understand what you are feeling with the cost. I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find one in your price range that fits for you.


I know some folks who went that route and what they saved on upfront costs ended up in vet costs because of poor breeding and the health issues that come with it. Any dog can get sick but with rescues the upside is that you didn't help fund a puppy mill and with a reputable breeder they often have the experience to at least guide you through the issue. That's been my experience anyway.


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

I work in a collectible market and fully understand its what people will pay. I also know there's usually someone not trying to charge top dollar for the same product. If I happen to be mind blown by a certain breeder I could maybe understand $2,000 but without understanding all these different names,lines and whatnot all I can go by is looks and they all look similar to what I previously see in rescues. I don't mean to sound offensive I just don't understand it yet.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

silverado said:


> I work in a collectible market and fully understand its what people will pay. I also know there's usually someone not trying to charge top dollar for the same product. If I happen to be mind blown by a certain breeder I could maybe understand $2,000 but without understanding all these different names,lines and whatnot all I can go by is looks and they all look similar to what I previously see in rescues. I don't mean to sound offensive I just don't understand it yet.


Most people early in their search don't understand it. $2k is alot of money...but the medical costs, food, training, etc. will make $2k seem cheap. I don't know how much I have into Remi (and I don't want to know). It is the best money I spent when you consider how long he will be around. My investment in this dog has luckily resulted in a dog that has good hips, doesn't suffer serious allergies, doesn't suffer with GI issues like so many GSD do, and he has a great temperament. 

To me, $2k is worth it for a well bred dog. I saved money over a long time to get the dog I wanted (not the dog I could afford). 

Good luck to you.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

To me, a pet is the hardest job a dog can have. You need a healthy, stable dog that will give your family joy for 10-15 years. A dog that will be accepting of your and your kids friends. A dog that will be stable in new environments and around weird things. A dog that won't be in pain due to bad hips or constantly in the vet for allergies and GI issues. 

So to me, getting a dog from a breeder that actually puts time in to their dogs, tests them for genetic issues, understands their lines and what they produce and what to expect from certain crossings, is the smartest thing you can do to get a wonderful family pet. 

You can find a good dog for 1500-1800. You can support a breeder that is trying to produce exactly what the GSD was supposed to be. Not all dogs in every litter will be of drive and intensity to be working or sport candidates. A good breeder will know how to evaluate their litter and match what you want with what they have.


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## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

silverado said:


> I don't understand why for a family companion your expected to shellout $2000, your'e telling me breeders aren't making a significant profit on a moderate range quality dog for $1,000?


Reputable breeders are not making a large profit on their litters if any at all. For my male, who I haven't bred, but do train in IPO....I've spent easily over $1,000 just in training, trialing alone. 

SV hip/elbows: $430 (Xrays, sending to GSDCA-WDA for verification, then to Germany)
DVG New member dues: $125
DVG CLub dues: $100 registration fee + $400 yearly dues
UScA membership: $100
Scorebooks for DVG and UScA: $30
Trial: BH $75
Conformation Show: $75

So that alone....is $1,335. That doesn't include equipment, gas to and from the club, tracking food, meals, routine vet care, etc...this is for a male...so for those breeders who are trialing their dogs at higher levels, multiple times, competing in several sports there is an even greater cost.... Now with the female, there is different tests done prior, during and after whelping, not to mention caring for the mom and pups. IF they have a small litter, most of the time they lose money. I'm sure for a litter larger than normal, its possible they might make a bit, BUT it goes back into the dogs. I can easily see them charging $1,500 - $2,500. Lots of work when done right! So much respect for them!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Why should a companion puppy be of poor quality and cheap????? You want a backyard bred pup whose parents have no health certifications, may be dysplastic, have temperament problems but the breeders have 2 random dogs that they breed to sell pups as a commodity? A companion puppy needs to have solid nerves, socially and environmentally. They need to be stable. No one wants a puppy who is a lottery ticket on health issues either....

Puppies are expensive to produce, properly care for....it is not cheap or easy or quick to certify a dog in working venues and health testing prior to establishing the quality of the animal for breeding. Start talking about the cost of a vehicle (I put 250K miles on a $35K truck in less than 7 years) to haul dogs, equipment, club charges, training/helper fees, GAS to go to club - YEARS of training to get a dog ready to be certified/titled....

Doing the breeding is not cheap - backyard and big commercial breeders have their own males and often just do breedings with no testing.....brucellosis, progesterones and other repro related vet work is expensive. Stud fees have gone through the roof....add travel, lost time at work, hotels, care for animals left at home to the costs....then when pups come - even utilities jump when heat, electric and washing dog blankets are increased when pups have to be cared for.

Then there are the risks for the female and puppies.....an emergency C section can run $3000 - 4000!!!!

Let's not forget the work you do to care for the litter...cleaning up lots of puppy poop as they grow....yea, lots of fun!!!

So why doesn't the breeder deserve to be compensated???? Do you work for free??? If you want cheap there are plenty of dogs in shelters, in rescues - and from puppy mills out there.

Lee


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

silverado;7384690 I'm just looking to add a family companion not a $2 said:


> The problem is, and others have expressed it in different ways, that this can be an even more expensive breed if you don't weigh the odds in your favor.
> 
> There is no such thing as an inexpensive German Shepherd Dog. What you don't pay upfront may come to bite you down the road.
> 
> ...


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

So putting the financials aside what are some good breeders around the Philadelphia area?


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I second what joeinca said about the amish breeders in PA, watch out. There are tons of them, Amish and Mennonite and from everything I've heard/seen they are not much better than a puppy mill dog. My husband has a Springer Spaniel that he got from a Mennonite breeder and she has severe unknown allergies, is extremely fearful, and has a host of other weird medical/temperament issues. If you don't want to pay over $1000 I would keep trying the rescues, there are a bunch of different ones around the area.


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

It's not That i don't want to spend over $1,000 I just never thought it was nessacary but apparently I was wrong. So financials aside are there any breeders that could be recommended.


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## Nynole1 (Dec 21, 2013)

I don't have a recommendation for a companion dog, only working line dog in PA.


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

So for a working line what's your recommendation?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Contact Jim Hill at Wyndmoor.
von Wyndmoor Breeders - A World of Difference


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## Raquan (Oct 10, 2015)

I am in new jersey, also looking for a first GSD.
While they are not really my type, not a fan of show lines, but Allkarah Kennels have some good dogs, a friend of mine got a GSD from them, she is very happy. Hope this helped


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Allkarah Kennels are American show lines


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I might have missed it, but if you'd consider a "American showlines" type dog, a friend of mine in Landisburg, PA has pups. I do NOT know the prices!!! I believe she has both colored pups and whites. I also know she does a lot of health testing before breeding and she shows in rare breed clubs and WGSD shows. I got my girl Faith from Barb and Linda and she's a fantastic dog ... smart and IMHO beautiful too!!!
Welcome to Sugarloaf Shepherds - Championship German Shepherd Dogs of White Coat Color


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

If you want to go to an AKC show to see ASL dogs and meet some breeders, there is a show in Oaks this weekend, Sat and Sunday it's a benched show so the dogs will be there all day. I think the show on Sat is recorded for TV, they show bits of it Thanksgiving day.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

Here's some breeders I've looked into that you might want to check out 

Maryland working line
German Shepherd Puppies, DC Metro Area / Frederick Maryland

PA working line, show line, working/show cross
Eichenluft German Shepherd Litters and Puppies for sale - German Shepherd Breeder PA - German Shepherd Breeder VA - German Shepherd Breeder MD - German Shepherd Breeder OH - German Shepherd Breeder DC - German Shepherd Breeder NY - German Shepherd Br

PA American Show Line
Puppies

Virginia working line
Blackthorn Working German Shepherds -- Available Puppies

North Carolina German Show Line
 Givenhaus German Shepherds - Home

Good luck in your search for a puppy.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

If you are willing to consider working lines, Wolfstraum just had a litter last week. Litter is with co-owner in NJ. This would be a well bred, stable temperament, titled and health tested breeding. Don't know what they might still have available, but having had one from her, bred to one of her males, and having met many dogs that she has produced over the years, that's who I would check with. The amount of knowledge and experience that she provides is worth it alone.


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## Jameson23 (Oct 27, 2015)

Just got a great pup from a breeder in Pa. - he is a great family addition

I gave up on the rescues, after the countless application, interviews and attitudes


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## Jameson23 (Oct 27, 2015)

Here is a picture of our pup Jameson, he got a great bill of health from the vet, he has a wonderful temperament and has been a wonderful family addition








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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

silverado said:


> *If I happen to be mind blown by a certain breeder* I could maybe understand $2,000 but without understanding all these different names,lines and whatnot all I can go by is looks and they all look similar to what I previously see in rescues. I don't mean to sound offensive I just don't understand it yet.


I know this thread is kind of old, by a day or two. I read through the thread and see plenty of good suggestions on breeders. But what caught my eye the most is the bolded statement above. Go visit the breeders and/or seek out their dogs at shows. If your experience is anything like my experience on this topic, you'll see a HUGE variety of dogs. You'll find certain breedings that DO blow your mind. Yep- it happens. But honestly, as someone who has put a LOT of thought on my next dog (not even sure if it'll be a GSD or not) I've found that going out and meeting the dogs is without question the single most important aspect in finding a breeding that's what you're looking for.

I have a friend who is a kennel and training facility for world-level IPO dogs, and that's no exaggeration. These dogs are regularly competing at a world level and doing well. I've gotten to sit in on the training sessions seeing GSD after GSD after GSD come out and train. Even in the same kennel (not the same breeding, of course) I see _drastic_ differences in the dogs and their personality. Drastic. Meeting the dogs is hugely important...

And by "meeting" the dog, I mean talking to the owner, questioning them about living with the dog, and actually try to interact with the dog in some way- though remember that GSDs are by nature (and by standard) an aloof breed and the dog may not give two craps about you. Never the less- find dogs you like, interact with them, and talk with the owners. You'll learn faaaaaaaaaar more by going out and seeing them than you ever will by reading these forums.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Absolutely and totally agree with Willy.


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## silverado (Jul 21, 2012)

I actually was working to schedule a few visits to breeders from the one listed. I thought I was done with the adoption route and I was woken up this morning to my fiance with a bright phone in my face showing me black shepherd mix pups at dogtown in Hatfield. Went and checked them out this morning and by mid afternoon I had adopted the male they had. I'll be sure to post pictures later he's quite the charmer and should be big once I get some weight on him. 

I greatly appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I'm sure I won't be done adding shepherds but for now I have my hands full for sure.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

silverado said:


> I actually was working to schedule a few visits to breeders from the one listed. I thought I was done with the adoption route and I was woken up this morning to my fiance with a bright phone in my face showing me black shepherd mix pups at dogtown in Hatfield. Went and checked them out this morning and by mid afternoon I had adopted the male they had. I'll be sure to post pictures later he's quite the charmer and should be big once I get some weight on him.
> 
> I greatly appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I'm sure I won't be done adding shepherds but for now I have my hands full for sure.


Nice! I almost got a shep through Dogtown and ended up going with a different rescue. Not for anything they did though. They're a great organization. 

Congrats, black shepherds are one of my favorites.


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