# Cutting costs on feeding. What brands?



## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I am looking to buy a cheaper dog food for my two adult German Shepherds. I currently feed them BilJac Sensitive Solution, but I have to buy a 30 lb bag every 2 weeks and I can barely afford it. 

I don't want a brand that has poor quality, I don't want my dogs to be getting sick. 
How about Purina-Beneful? What are your experiences with this brand? 
Any other suggestions?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Beneful is a horrible food.
When shopping foods, you need to look at the ingredients and pick one that has named meats (ie chicken meal, lamb meal, etc...) in the first ingredients. Not corn, wheat, soy and other things.

Unfortunately, dog food is an area where often you get what you pay for. Not saying that someone needs to feed the most expensive food out there, but the really cheap foods are cheap for a reason and can compromise the dog's health.

You may find these websites, especially the reviews section where they rate foods and why, to be helpful. I wouldn't agree with everything on it, but it's a good place to get started in researching foods.

Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/


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## Gwenhilde (May 5, 2013)

I recently switched to diamond together with homemade 40lb bag is about 35-38 dollars depending where I get it. Even though I had my reservations on diamond because of the recalls the dogs love it and have been doing wonderful on it.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

If you have a Costco card the natures domain or kirkland brand might be a better option than say pedigree or Iams. The kirkland chicken or lamb and rice is 30 for a 40 pound bag. Or the natures domain, which is still kirkland but grain free, is 31-34 for a 30 pound bag. 


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Taste of the Wild seems to be a decent brand, grain free at least with a named meat as first ingredient. 30 bucks for a 15 pound bag at Tractor Supply. My dearly departed Banjo had a fairly sensitive stomach(chicken was his enemy) and the salmon variety was a great fall back when RAW wasn't do-able(time and/or general laziness).


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Perhaps pricing out raw diet in your area. I know it is pricey for many here but it seems to depend on location.
I spend between 35-65 a month feeding raw which to me is very inexpensive in comparison to kibble.


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## Gwenhilde (May 5, 2013)

Personally I would love to do raw feeding as well but financially it way too much with our pack and the cost of meat lately. lol 35-65 I would do that in a heartbeat


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Just a thought... I know it is hard sometimes to come up with the extra money for more expensive food than what you've been feeding, but my experience has been that with the more expensive food you will actually feed less quantity and in the end, it really isn't more expensive-just better for them. Cheaper food contains more fillers, so you have to feed large portions to satisfy the animal.
Many, many years ago it was common to feed Purina Cat Chow to your cat. Once Iams came along (much more expensive) their claim was basically "Our food is more expensive but you'll feed less, due to less fillers and have much less to clean up in the litterbox."
I told my Sister-in-law, who was on a VERY limited budget, about it and she tried it and agreed it was affordable because she didn't have to feed so much. 
I've also talked to several pet owners who upgraded the food they were feeding and found that coat/skin/digestive issues cleared up.
In the end, it all boils down to what your budget can handle.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I am looking to buy a cheaper dog food for my two adult German Shepherds. I currently feed them BilJac Sensitive Solution, but I have to buy a 30 lb bag every 2 weeks and I can barely afford it.


60 pounds of food a month for 2 dogs sounds like a lot. How many cups a day do each of them get? Often, with a better food you use less because it's more nutritionally dense, which helps offset the higher price. I looked up the ingredients in the food you're using, it has corn meal as the 3rd ingredient, and I saw on one site that it's about $45 per bag, which seems like a lot for a food with corn. 

I agree with Chris, Beneful is terrible. Here are the ingredients:

*Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, water, meat and bone meal, propylene glycol, sugar, tricalcium phosphate, phosphoric acid, salt, animal digest, potassium chloride, sorbic acid (a preservative), dried peas, dried carrots, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, Red 40, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Yellow 6, Yellow 5, Vitamin A supplement, Blue 2, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, brewers dried yeast, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite.*

Any of the other options suggested so far would be much better - Taste of the Wild, the Costco foods, and Diamond. Sometimes you can get better prices buying online. I feed Orijen, Halo gets the Adult formula and Keefer the 6 Fish. It's one of the most expensive foods you can buy, but I've experimented with a few others and keep coming back to Orijen because they both do so much better on it. I'm saving about $50 with each order of a bag each from Chewy.com over buying it locally, and shipping is free.

Other online places you can try are Petflow.com, Wag.com, and Doggiefood.com. It's good to do a price comparison from time to time - I was buying from Doggiefood.com for awhile, but their prices started creeping up to where they were pretty much full retail, but Chewy.com is still a great deal. Some of them have better prices if you set up an auto-ship program. Chewy sends me an email about a week before they're going to ship my order, and if I'm not ready for it yet I can simply go online and bump back the ship date a week or two.


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## Gwenhilde (May 5, 2013)

Like Cassidy's Mom said ordering online is great, that is where I get my Diamond as well dog.com, 1800petsupplies never looked into chewy's but I will now  the sites I mentioned I rotate as they frequently have 20% off the food which offsets the shipping for 80 lbs at a time  which comes out to about $38 a bag. Recently I found a local feed store that is willing to order it for me at $36 a bag but then with taxes it still comes out to the same as well the waiting time is longer. Once in a while the above mentioned sites will give E-gift certificates as well which make it nice. But I never buy it when they don't have the 20% of as buying it local is cheaper. I had contemplated nature's domain and kirkland's as well but Costco now days is so far out of the way for me that it isn't really cost effective for what I would be spending on gas


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Gwenhilde said:


> Like Cassidy's Mom said ordering online is great, that is where I get my Diamond as well dog.com, 1800petsupplies never looked into chewy's but I will now  the sites I mentioned I rotate as they frequently have 20% off the food which offsets the shipping for 80 lbs at a time  which comes out to about $38 a bag.


Chewy, Petflow, and Doggiefood have free shipping for orders over $49! For me, that's less than the price of the two bags I buy at a time, so I have no trouble meeting that at all. Some of those may also do discounts for the first order too, definitely worth checking out.


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## Gwenhilde (May 5, 2013)

hmm the sites i mentioned do free shipping over $49 as well just not for oversized items. That's it! Time to reevaluate my food broker


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I know for some that I looked at the cutoff was 60 lbs for free shipping, so if you're wanting to purchase food that comes in 35-40 lb bags you might not be able to buy two at once with free shipping.


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## TAR HEEL MOM (Mar 22, 2013)

I use the Tractor Supply store brand. It is called 4Health and there are several taster varieties in the grain free. My dogs eat the Salmon and Potato and love it. Its about 35 dollars for a 30 pound bag.


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## TAR HEEL MOM (Mar 22, 2013)

If I was going to get foor off the grocery store shelf it would either be the Purina One or maybe the Rachel Ray "Just 6."


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## Gwenhilde (May 5, 2013)

That's a good point Galathiel! Actually never thought of that. Though I know with dog.com even ordering one they still do the oversized charge. But it is worth checking on some of the other sights Chewy is $9 per bag more but the savings on shipping actually would make cause a savings of $2.50 per bag vs dog.com. Thanks Cassidy for that website


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Galathiel said:


> I know for some that I looked at the cutoff was 60 lbs for free shipping, so if you're wanting to purchase food that comes in 35-40 lb bags you might not be able to buy two at once with free shipping.


Chewy.com's policy of free shipping on orders over $49 applies to all products, and they don't show any weight limit. Under $49 they charge $4.95.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Doggiefood.com too: *No Exclusions - big, heavy, large and small ship free. As long as your order is a minimum of $49, shipping is on us!*

Petflow's shipping policy is also free for "all orders over $49", they don't show any exclusions.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Gwenhilde said:


> Personally I would love to do raw feeding as well but financially it way too much with our pack and the cost of meat lately. lol 35-65  I would do that in a heartbeat


I do not buy much from grocery store shelves. Lots of leg work = better price and great deals...some free.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Chewy's is the best.
They gave me a full refund for a bag of high-priced freeze dried food that gave Hans the runs, and didn't even have me return the bag. Asked me to donate it to a shelter.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

We feed Victor kibble. Prices vary widely depending on where you are located. I'm not sure what part of MO you are in, but I get mine in the Ozarks-- can usually pick up a 40lb bag for $35. 

Waaaay cheaper than Beneful or Purina and significantly better ingredients in my opinion.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

brembo said:


> Taste of the Wild seems to be a decent brand, grain free at least with a named meat as first ingredient. 30 bucks for a 15 pound bag at Tractor Supply. My dearly departed Banjo had a fairly sensitive stomach(chicken was his enemy) and the salmon variety was a great fall back when RAW wasn't do-able(time and/or general laziness).


I get the 30lb bag online for that price =) amazon or 1800petsupplies.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

How is Diamond? 

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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> How is Diamond?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I feed Ammo Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete and he does really well on it. 


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Another reco for the Kirkland ones at Costco...

I have fed my GSD Orijen/Acana, etc for months and also the Kirkland lamb / rice as well as the Costco "nature's domain" and see similar muscle tone, fur, and health between "high grade" brands and the "mid grade" stuff.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you all for the replies, they helped a lot. I am going to start feeding them Diamond. We have an orschelens practically next door to us and they carry it. 

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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

I do raw now, but prior to that I got the Kirkland brand from Costco. It's apparently made my Diamond Naturals and has a really good rating on Dog Food Advisor.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Currently I feed Kibble and Raw. 
Kibble Purin Pro Plan - $55
Raw Ground Chicken 60lb - $60

Lasts about 2 months


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I feed mine 50/50 Diamond Naturals Adult Chicken and Rice, and Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete. I buy it at Tractor Supply Co. It costs me $144 with tax for two 40 pound bags of each, so 160 pounds of dog food. I think that feeding half and half, I am getting about 420kcal/cup. 

Personally, Purina is a big name with a lot of advertising. I find that their ingredient list is really much crappier than Diamond, which includes 4-health, kirkland, Taste of the wild, and Diamond Naturals. And the price is generally higher and often for a smaller bag. 

Just for a comparison:
*Purina Beneful $22 for $31 pounds
*
*Ingredients:* Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, salt, phosphoric acid, animal digest, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), DL-Methionine, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin B-12 supplement, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, copper sulfate, biotin, garlic oil, thiamine hydrochloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite.

*Nutritional information:* Crude Protein 25.0%, Moisture 14.0%, Crude Fat 10.0%, Crude Fiber 4.0%, Linoleic Acid 1.5%,Calcium 1.1%, Iron 200 mg/kg, Selenium 0.2 mg/kg, Vitamin A 10,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E 100 IU/kg.

*Caloric Content:* 3689 kcal/kg (360 kcal/cup).


*Diamond Naturals Adult Chicken and Rice: 29.99 for 40#. *

Diamond® Naturals™ Chicken & Rice Formula for Adult Dogs will provide your dog with the nutrients necessary for optimal health and an active life. Guaranteed levels of vitamin E and selenium ensure that your dog is receiving optimum antioxidant nutrition, and crunchy kibble helps clean teeth and reduce plaque. 


Chicken is the #1 Ingredient
Antioxidant Formulation
Balanced Omega Fatty Acids for Skin and Coat
Crunchy Kibble Helps Clean Teeth and Reduce Plaque
Natural Formula with Vitamins and Minerals
No Wheat, No Corn, No Soy
*Ingredients: *
Chicken, chicken meal, whole grain brown rice, white rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal, dried plain beet pulp, egg product, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, salt, potassium chloride, choline chloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid. *Guaranteed Analysis: *
Protein: 26%, Fat: 16% 
*Caloric Content: *
3,708 kcal/kg (368 kcal/cup) Calculated ME 



*Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete, $37.99 for 40#*
Diamond® Naturals™ Extreme Athlete Chicken & Rice Formula makes healthy dogs. 


Rich in Protein and Fat for Optimal Energy and Condition
Antioxidant Formulation
Contains Glucosamine and Chondroitin
Balanced Omega Fatty Acids for Skin and Coat
Crunchy Kibble Helps Clean Teeth and Reduce Plaque
Natural Formula with Vitamins and Minerals
No Corn, No Wheat, No Soy
Some dogs just seem to be born as natural athletes. Other dogs work long and hard to develop their endurance and skill. Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete Chicken & Rice Formula is specifically formulated with optimal levels of protein and fat to fuel your hard-working dog. *Guaranteed Analysis: *

*Ingredients: *
Chicken meal, chicken, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, cracked pearled barley, powdered cellulose, dried plain beet pulp, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin (vitamin B2), vitamin D supplement, folic acid. 
*Guaranteed Analysis: *
Protein: 32% Fat: 25% 
*Caloric Content: *
4,710 kcal/kg (470 kcal/cup) Calculated ME 



*Purina Pro Plan, $47.99 for 37.5#*
*Ingredients: *
Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), corn bran, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, dried egg product, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. Animal feeding tests using Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) procedures substantiate that Pro Plan Chicken & Rice Formula Dog Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages. 
*Guaranteed Analysis: *
Crude Protein (min.) 26.0%
Crude Fat (min.) 16.0%
Crude Fiber (max.) 3.0%
Moisture (max.) 12.0%
Linoleic acid (min.) 1.4%
Calcium (min.) 1.0%
Phosphorus (min.) 0.8%
Selenium (min.) 0.30 mg/kg
Vitamin A (min.) 15,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (min.) 460 IU/kg
Ascorbic Acid* (min.) 70 mg/kg
Glucosamine* (min.) 400 ppm
Glutamine* (min.) 1.0%.


Four products, the most expensive is the Purina Pro-Plan, but it starts out with chicken, which is 70% water. Once that is baked out, it would be much lower on the ingredient list, it also has rice, wheat, and corn, and the main source of protein is poultry by-product meal. In short, crap. You are paying for the name, Purina. Even on their best product. $10 more (than Extreme Athlete) for a bag that is shy in weight by 2.5 pounds, with nastier ingredients -- this is their top of the line product, Purina Pro-Plan. It works for a lot of dogs.

I made the ingredients prior to salt red. After salt, I figure we can discount them, for the most part, understanding that most are vitamins and minerals that are purchased in a pre-mix, and will be similar hopefully.


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## AgilityAce (Sep 13, 2013)

Victor is a very good choice. Have your feed store order it for you.

If you are good with coupons and have a Pet Supplies Plus you can usually get Pro Plan at a great price.

Another excellent value food is Pro Pac. The 44lb bags usually go for around $30. Good food made by a very reliable company.


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## kristinloveschief (Sep 12, 2013)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I am looking to buy a cheaper dog food for my two adult German Shepherds. I currently feed them BilJac Sensitive Solution, but I have to buy a 30 lb bag every 2 weeks and I can barely afford it.
> 
> I don't want a brand that has poor quality, I don't want my dogs to be getting sick.
> How about Purina-Beneful? What are your experiences with this brand?
> Any other suggestions?


We are getting our first GSD puppy this coming Friday and have been trying to find a good food that won't break the budget also! We went to PetSmart and they recommended Purina Pro Plan Focus Large Breed Puppy for our budget. I'm sure there are better more expensive foods but they said this is a good food too and will do just fine. We're going to the vet a few days after we get him so we will ask the vet as well just to make sure. The guy at PetSmart said that when you buy a higher quality/ a good food the dogs eat less so you buy less. Not sure how true that is but it makes sense that the dogs would be more satisfied with proper nutrition and less fillers!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

kristinloveschief said:


> We are getting our first GSD puppy this coming Friday and have been trying to find a good food that won't break the budget also! We went to PetSmart and they recommended Purina Pro Plan Focus Large Breed Puppy for our budget. I'm sure there are better more expensive foods but they said this is a good food too and will do just fine. We're going to the vet a few days after we get him so we will ask the vet as well just to make sure. The guy at PetSmart said that when you buy a higher quality/ a good food the dogs eat less so you buy less. Not sure how true that is but it makes sense that the dogs would be more satisfied with proper nutrition and less fillers!


 I can tell you that there are better CHEAPER foods than this!
the guy is correct that a high quality food will mean that you feed less and save money in the long run. Unfortunately, he didn't recommend a food that fits that description.
You want a named meat MEAL as the first ingredient. Having just chicken means that, once processed and the water removed, meat will actually be much lower on the list. So the #1 ingredient is actually brewer's rice, followed by corn, corn and chicken "by-products"

*Ingredients*

Chicken, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pea fiber, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), dried egg product, fish oil, calcium phosphate, natural flavor, salt, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, potassium citrate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried colostrum, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, garlic oil, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, Vitamin B-12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite. 
K-4457 

compared to this (it's an all life stages food) Nutrisource grain free 

Ingredients:
Chicken, chicken meal, pea starch, peas, pea flour, potatoes, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), natural turkey and chicken flavors, sunflower oil, tomato pomace, potassium chloride, dried brewers yeast, minerals (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate, selenium yeast), salt, choline chloride, taurine, vitamins (vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin, d-calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement), glucosamine hydrochloride, tryptophan, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), chondroitin sulfate, yucca schidigera extract, calcium iodate, rosemary extract, yeast culture (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Aspergillus niger fermentation product, dried Bacillus subtillis fermentation product.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

And in addition to Dainerra's excellent post, the Purina ingredients include corn gluten meal. In 2007 there was a huge pet food recall after thousands of animals got sick, and hundreds or even thousands (depending on who you ask), died.  The problem was melamine, an industrial chemical used to make plastics, which was found in corn gluten, wheat gluten, and rice protein, all sourced from China. 

Whether or not you believe dogs need grains, or your dog does better on a food that contains grains (some definitely seem to), I would avoid those particular ingredients, just to be on the safe side. As far as I know, they are not produced in the US, so any time you see them on a label, it's from China. And why bump up the protein content of dog with a grain protein product rather than a meat source?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I must have accidentally deleted this when I was posting earlier:

The cost of Purina One at PetCo is $35. I pay $45 for the nutrisource along with a discount card (receive $10 off for every $100 I spend AND every 13th bag is free)


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

If you're really going to get into Purina foods, just bust out the wallet and go for their Pro Plan line instead of going with their crud stuff like Beneful or One. Join their Pro Club and keep your weight circles. Granted, I feed a TON more than you do (28 cups per day for my lot) and I mix 4Health or Diamond with Pro Plan Sport or EN, depending on prices. But I rack up their reward points real fast, and their $7 food checks make a big difference on my annual budget.

That said, if you don't have super athletic dogs I LOVE the Kirkland (Costco) brand for value and quality and really like 4Health. Kirkland has some filler and I sacrificed a bit of gloss in the coat, but never had loose stool. 4Health salmon really puts a shine on your dogs and is affordable, but Tractor Supply doesn't exist in all areas.


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## Geeheim (Jun 18, 2011)

I buy Victor for my dogs (Victor Super Premium Dog Food) and they love it. I can get a 40# for $31. Great food, great price and made by a great company that has never had any recalls.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Since we are talking abt recalls, were there any because of salmonella where dogs died?

I'm asking because I'm on raw and I don't worry about salmonella (maybe wrongly) because I'm assuming he can deal with it. 
I mean they eat raw meat with all the bacteria, they eat throw up and poop, spoiled meat, whatever else and they don't get sick. I'm assuming they have some heavy acid that kills it all. 

Is this true? Reptiles, for example, carry salmonella with no harm to them. I thought dogs can too.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Since we are talking abt recalls, were there any because of salmonella where dogs died?
> 
> I'm asking because I'm on raw and I don't worry about salmonella (maybe wrongly) because I'm assuming he can deal with it.
> I mean they eat raw meat with all the bacteria, they eat throw up and poop, spoiled meat, whatever else and they don't get sick. I'm assuming they have some heavy acid that kills it all.
> ...


It's more about the elimination rate. Raw food is passed through much more quickly, where kibble sits for a long time making them more susceptible to the bacterial. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Capone22 said:


> It's more about the elimination rate. Raw food is passed through much more quickly, where kibble sits for a long time making them more susceptible to the bacterial.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you)))) I was always confused about the salmonella issue as a warning against raw


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Actually, I fed two bags of recalled Diamond. The only one who got salmonella was me, and that's because I was using kibble as rewards when I was training my new puppy. I'd drop her a kibble and go back to whatever I was doing. Didn't wash my hands before touching my face or eating. My fault, and I paid dearly for it. Meanwhile, my dogs ate 80lbs of food from the recalled batch and didn't even have loose stool.

With salmonella, its not about the dogs. Its about us. With melamine and other plastic offcasts, it's about the dogs.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

marbury said:


> Actually, I fed two bags of recalled Diamond. The only one who got salmonella was me, and that's because I was using kibble as rewards when I was training my new puppy. I'd drop her a kibble and go back to whatever I was doing. Didn't wash my hands before touching my face or eating. My fault, and I paid dearly for it. Meanwhile, my dogs ate 80lbs of food from the recalled batch and didn't even have loose stool.
> 
> With salmonella, its not about the dogs. Its about us. With melamine and other plastic offcasts, it's about the dogs.


That's scary and makes me like my decision to feed raw even more! At least I know to wash my hands after touching raw chicken etc. I would not expect to get salmonella from touching kibble.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

marbury said:


> Actually, I fed two bags of recalled Diamond. The only one who got salmonella was me, and that's because I was using kibble as rewards when I was training my new puppy. I'd drop her a kibble and go back to whatever I was doing. Didn't wash my hands before touching my face or eating. My fault, and I paid dearly for it. Meanwhile, my dogs ate 80lbs of food from the recalled batch and didn't even have loose stool.
> 
> With salmonella, its not about the dogs. Its about us. With melamine and other plastic offcasts, it's about the dogs.


But I thought many dogs died from the diamond recall. How did that happen?




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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Saphire said:


> That's scary and makes me like my decision to feed raw even more! At least I know to wash my hands after touching raw chicken etc. I would not expect to get salmonella from touching kibble.


Obviously I didn't either, lol! We were almost done with the first bag when I checked and realized we had some from the batch and since nobody had been ill I just kept using it. I figure plenty of dogs eat plenty of horrible carrion out there in the back yard or along the road. Totally slipped my mind about human safety. I figured since I wasn't _eating _it myself I had nothing to worry about. Lesson learned! But at least I ended up with a heck of a well-behaved puppy for my efforts, haha.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The Diamond recall where many dogs died was many years ago and it was because the corn they used was bad and created aflotoxin. Only the formulas that contained corn were affected. It was bad. It was a dozen or more years ago. 

I had just switched off diamond at the time, but I was feeding lamb and rice, so my dogs were not affected. I had switched to Nutro. And then the menu foods recall hit, and they insisted that the dry food was not affected, but I actually did have serious problems from that. 

I switched to Canidae, back when they were manufactured by Pied Piper. My dogs switched to it rather hard, but then were ok for a while. Then that was really bad. They switched their formula and switched to Diamond, and my dogs did awful on it. It was a 5 star food, and I checked everything else before my vet and I threw up our hands and called for a food change. Fixed the issue. 

I went to Kumpi, and my dogs stopped having the issue they had with Canidae, but they weren't doing well enough to justify 50$ for 35 pounds of food, and then they started dropping weight. 

I went to 4Health, as it had good ingredients for a reasonable price. But then after a few months switched to Diamond Naturals, as the ingredients were similar and the price was a little better, and the manufacturer was the same. 

It has been 2 years, since I made that switch, and my dogs are doing well on the Diamond Naturals. 

Diamond manufactures a lot of food:
Kirkland 
Diamond Naturals
Taste of the Wild
Canidae 
Chicken Soup
4Health
Natural Balance
Wellness says they are done with Diamond, but I am not 100% sure about that.

It seems that if it is reasonably priced, it is manufactured by Diamond. I also think that when you manufacture the volumes of food that they do, I think you are likely to have a problem here and there. It is kind of like flying. It may be the safest way to travel, but everyone thinks their plane is going down.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Of course, things happen. It's still scary though. 

How do you even decide what's a good food? To me, none of the ingredients look appetizing. I usually don't read the labels on human food for that reason. 


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## GoodShepherdLuke (Jan 20, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Of course, things happen. It's still scary though.
> 
> How do you even decide what's a good food? To me, none of the ingredients look appetizing. I usually don't read the labels on human food for that reason.
> 
> ...



(First time post anywhere EVER) That's why I feed raw!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GoodShepherdLuke said:


> (First time post anywhere EVER) That's why I feed raw!


I do too. I'm just asking for education. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are sites that explain the various ingredients and order by weight, etc. They explain that when you have multiple grains, or when you break the grains up into brown rice, white rice, rice flour, brewer's rice, etc, that at the end of the day, your dog is getting more of the lower down ingredients, than the listed meat on the top, especially if that meat is meat and not a meal. Chicken meal is supposedly chicken with the water already baked out. So it is not 70% water. The water will be pulled out anyway in processing, so a food that reads: chicken, brown rice, white rice, rice flour, barley animal fat. Is going to have a lot less animal protein in it, than a food that reads Chicken, Chicken meal, brown rice, white rice, barley, chicken fat. 

Also, generic meats, not good. Animal fat -- yuck. Chicken fat -- much better. Meat and bone meal -- what? whatever meat is cheap and available today? Name that meat. 

Some things are easy. whole eggs are better than egg product. But I would rather deal with egg product down in the list, than generic meats and fats. 

And coloring in the food is a big no-no. The dogs do not care about the color. They want meat. If it has meat in it, they could care less if it is pea green, they will eat it. They do not need to see light tan, and dark brown, and orange kibbles -- that is for us the humans, and that stuff has been known to cause cancer, and it is just an unnecessary additive that your dog could be sensitive to. 

I stay away from foods with sugar or molassis in it. If it has meat, the dog will eat it, if the meat or fat isn't rancid. Molassis and sugar is added to low quality ingredients to make a food appetizing to dogs, or to cover up something foul. I figure if that crap is not good for my teeth, my behavior, or how my systems work -- diabetes, than why would it be good for my dog, who would not encounter much of it in the wild.

There is much more. But I think you get the idea. RAW is fine, for those who do the work, and ensure their pooch has a balanced diet. For some of us, raw or homemade doesn't make sense. I am not a nutritionist, and I fear that I will not provide my dogs with some necessary nutrients with RAW, so I let mine get most of their nutrition from kibble. Sometimes I will skip a meal and give them raw chicken. But some of my dogs do not always handle raw chicken wonderfully, so I do not do that as often as I used to.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Aye, Selzer. And although I have no idea if it is absolute, foods that are all sorts of exciting colors and shapes _tend _to be inferior to regular ol' boring-looking kibbles. The chunks of 'chicken', little bones and semi-most chewy parts... in my experience all those are hallmarks of cheap food. Kibbles n' Bits & Beneful tout things like "fun variety of shapes" because they have very little else to boast about in their product.
All the higher quality foods I have experience with tend to be boring variations on crunchy little spheres or disks. Boring but healthy, and my dogs don't complain!


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## kristinloveschief (Sep 12, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> I can tell you that there are better CHEAPER foods than this!
> the guy is correct that a high quality food will mean that you feed less and save money in the long run. Unfortunately, he didn't recommend a food that fits that description.
> You want a named meat MEAL as the first ingredient. Having just chicken means that, once processed and the water removed, meat will actually be much lower on the list. So the #1 ingredient is actually brewer's rice, followed by corn, corn and chicken "by-products"
> 
> ...


What do you feed?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol, if you know enough to decipher the labels then you know enough to feed raw. IMO. 

I'm not saying anything, whatever works for you but we don't need nutrition degrees to feed ourselves and our kids so i'd say we'd do fine with dogs too. 

I've heard people say that dog food companies make it seem like feeding dogs is this complex project that no one has the knowledge for just so people are scared to drop dog food. Makes sense to me. 


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

kristinloveschief said:


> What do you feed?


I feed Nutrisource.not to be confused with Nutrosource 
Just when you thought you had this dog good thing figured out...

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lalachka said:


> Lol, if you know enough to decipher the labels then you know enough to feed raw. IMO.
> 
> I'm not saying anything, whatever works for you but we don't need nutrition degrees to feed ourselves and our kids so i'd say we'd do fine with dogs too.
> 
> ...


The American public does not have a clue how to feed themselves or their children, there is a serious obesity problem in both children and adults, cancer and diabetes and asthma are rampant here. This argument is not a good one for RAW feeding, in my opinion. I do a better job at keeping my critters healthy than I do myself.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

It's not a complicated as some make it out to be. On the other hand, it's not a simple a buying some chicken legs and throwing it in a bowl either.
I agree with Sue that it can be had enough for people to feed themselves a balanced diet. It's not that it's complicated, just not as quick and ready as fast food or TV dinners

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a scary article about the use of melamine in pet food ingredients in China - it's added intentionally because it's cheap and high in nitrogen. Protein content is measured by the amount of nitrogen, not the quality of protein, so adding melamine fakes the tests, showing artificially higher levels of protein, which also brings higher prices. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/business/worldbusiness/30food.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp&

It was actually due to this recall, where all the China sourced ingredients that contained melamine were grain products (corn, wheat, rice), that I ended up switching to all grain free foods for my pets. I don't necessarily think grains are bad, I just don't trust them anymore. And this recall was just a year after the aflatoxin recalls involving corn. The recall was not as extensive since it was only at one Diamond plant, so it involved fewer foods and only those sold in certain states. Menu Foods company manufactured food for many different companies who were too small to have their own plants, so they contracted it out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is also more expensive, really. I mean, you can get dog food for less than $1 per pound. And while you can get crappy chicken leg quarters for less than $1 per pound, there isn't many other meats that you can get that cheaply. Maybe if you buy bulk, but for that, you really either need a pack as big as mine, or you have to have a stand alone freezer. 

In any case, you would really have to work to manage to feed a dog on a RAW diet for what I can feed a dog, on a decent, mid-range kibble.

Also, some dogs simply do not do well on a raw meat diet. It is not for every dog. Can you feed an EPI dog Raw? Not sure. 

I think there are things you can do, can add to kibble if you want to provide your dog with extra healthy stuff with animal protein, like cheese and eggs and yogurt, without going whole hog (pun intended). 

I give mine left-overs on occasion, and sometimes fruit, and sometimes veggies, but the majority is their kibble.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Here's a scary article about the use of melamine in pet food ingredients in China - it's added intentionally because it's cheap and high in nitrogen. Protein content is measured by the amount of nitrogen, not the quality of protein, so adding melamine fakes the tests, showing artificially higher levels of protein, which also brings higher prices.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/business/worldbusiness/30food.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hp&
> 
> It was actually due to this recall, where all the China sourced ingredients that contained melamine were grain products (corn, wheat, rice), that I ended up switching to all grain free foods for my pets. I don't necessarily think grains are bad, I just don't trust them anymore. And this recall was just a year after the aflatoxin recalls involving corn. The recall was not as extensive since it was only at one Diamond plant, so it involved fewer foods and only those sold in certain states. Menu Foods company manufactured food for many different companies who were too small to have their own plants, so they contracted it out.


I did not give up grains, but I do not feed any glutens or protein concentrate. I read the stuff about them adding the plastic intentionally back when it happened. 

And I think that the dry food had cynuric acid and the wet food malamine, and when you mix them, you have a much worse effect, causing kidney damage, etc. Lots of the better foods were effected, and people buying canned food and kibble to give their dog the best -- whatever, they were hit hardest.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

selzer said:


> The American public does not have a clue how to feed themselves or their children, there is a serious obesity problem in both children and adults, cancer and diabetes and asthma are rampant here. This argument is not a good one for RAW feeding, in my opinion. I do a better job at keeping my critters healthy than I do myself.


I do too. He eats 10 times better than I do. 

But obesity, cancer and diabetes don't occur because people don't know how to feed themselves, IMO. Most people do know just choose to eat what tastes good. 
Cancer is because of all the chemicals we it, again, people know better but who wants to cook if you can eat some snack or microwave something. 

So I don't agree that people don't know, I might be wrong of course. 

In any case I don't think feeding dogs is that complicated, and raw (IMO and I'm not putting down anyone who doesn't feed raw) is better than dog food, even if it's not as balanced. Besides, I don't buy that dog food is all that balanced either. That highly processed stuff they put in there has no nutrients or vitamins, all that is being added later as supplements. So that's no different than feeding even table scraps and adding supplements. 

Again, all this is just my uneducated opinion. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, it is more expensive. But I enjoy doing it so much that I write it off to buying something for my pleasure. 

For me it's very expensive, I'm feeding him on the assumption that he's allergic to beef and chicken so I've been giving him turkey, goat, lamb, duck and rabbit, all at least $4/lb and goat and lamb have heavy bones that he can't eat, so even more expensive. 

I'm hoping he can go back to chicken and beef at some point. 

I'm not putting anyone down, everyone does what works best for them. I just don't think the decision should be based on the thought that raw feeding is so complex that they're afraid they won't be able to figure it out. That's all. 


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I miss feeding raw. I never paid the prices you do though.
Maybe an average of $30a month? I fed venison, elk, buffalo, duck, turkey, even bear. And of choose the regular staple like rabbit, lamb, mutton, beef and goat.
The only things i ever paid for were chicken backs and turkey necks though. Those i bought in bulk for less than $1/lb. Sometimes 30 cents a lb for hamburger that was a couple days past the sell by date.
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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

But I DO believe that an improper raw diet is worse than even the cheapest kibble. You don't need to have perfect balance every meal, of course, but without the proper ratios and variety you aren't going to give the diff the vitamins and nutrients he needs unless you supplement with vitamins. And then you have to calculate dosages and accounts of different pills and powders.
Even the cheapest dog food already has that added to it so while it may not be the best, the dog has everything it needs.

Improperly done raw diets are part of the reason that vets are so against them. They see dogs suffering from malnutrition far more often than well-fed. Ask the general public about raw feeding and they think you just dump out some hamburger and chicken legs.

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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> Improperly done raw diets are part of the reason that vets are so against them. They see dogs suffering from malnutrition far more often than well-fed. Ask the general public about raw feeding and they think you just dump out some hamburger and chicken legs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I disagree with this statement, as most vets have no clue how to feed raw. If they were concerned with the administration of the raw diet they would offer advice on how too feed correctly, which most do not.
My Vet was adamant I was putting my family in danger by feeding raw but could not answer my question as to why or how it was any different than my preparing chicken for my family to eat. Simply not educated to how raw works and therefore does not support it.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Yes that is part of it. But talking with my very and all the vets I've every had, they see a LOT of people attempt a raw diet. Probably 99% do it badly. That is the reason that they discourage it, coupled with inexperience. They likely assume that of they, a medical professional, don't know how to do it correctly, then Joe Public can't either. And of course their experiences usually bear them out.
I couldn't even begin to count the number of people who give advice online and tell newbies that all you need to feed is chicken and hamburger while at the same time warning to never feed bones. I met someone at the vets when i first started a raw diet. Her dog had never eaten anything but hamburger supplemented with eggs and pasta. He was a mess and had numerous health problems so i could understand my vets distrust of my raw diet plan. 
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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> Improperly done raw diets are part of the reason that vets are so against them. They see dogs suffering from malnutrition far more often than well-fed. Ask the general public about raw feeding and they think you just dump out some hamburger and chicken legs.


Ding ding! This is absolutely true, in our clinic at least. We have quite a few clients that 'feed raw' and their dogs are a nutritional disaster. They wonder why this raw diet thing isn't working for them... completely imbalanced, no additional nutrients, just toss them a chicken thigh every day and that's it. The worst is when they're growing puppies. We have an entire doberman litter sans one pup that was ruined this way. Horrible downed pasterns, weak ears (none stood, all cropped), eye growth issues, improper jaw growth, bad coat... you name it. The one puppy that is perfectly healthy with normal development? Fed 4Health.

Our vets don't advocate raw because they honestly think kibble is better; they advocate kibble because most owners don't care or know enough to correctly feed raw.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> I miss feeding raw. I never paid the prices you do though.
> Maybe an average of $30a month? I fed venison, elk, buffalo, duck, turkey, even bear. And of choose the regular staple like rabbit, lamb, mutton, beef and goat.
> The only things i ever paid for were chicken backs and turkey necks though. Those i bought in bulk for less than $1/lb. Sometimes 30 cents a lb for hamburger that was a couple days past the sell by date.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm not a bargain shopper, that's a skill that I don't have. I just go when I'm ready and stock up on whatever they have at whatever prices they have. 

I'd love to have a cheap supply, I buy in bulk. I'd also love to have all the meats you had access to. So far no luck. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> But I DO believe that an improper raw diet is worse than even the cheapest kibble. You don't need to have perfect balance every meal, of course, but without the proper ratios and variety you aren't going to give the diff the vitamins and nutrients he needs unless you supplement with vitamins. And then you have to calculate dosages and accounts of different pills and powders.
> Even the cheapest dog food already has that added to it so while it may not be the best, the dog has everything it needs.
> 
> Improperly done raw diets are part of the reason that vets are so against them. They see dogs suffering from malnutrition far more often than well-fed. Ask the general public about raw feeding and they think you just dump out some hamburger and chicken legs.
> ...


You mean the organs and the %? Yeah, it's a little more complex than hamburgers and chicken legs but not that much. Unless I'm doing it wrong. 

But I agree, feeding just meat is a disaster. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

OK, in just read the posts of how people feed raw and I see what you're saying. I thought that people research it first. 

Then I agree, best left to dog food. Any dog food is better than just muscle meat all the time. 


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