# Max



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Is lost in space these days. 
Not walking well.
Loosing control of his bladder.
He has had accidents in the house twice in about 10 days.
Lost control of his bowels once. 

I have ordered some prebiotics and put him on an herbal urinary support formula. Diapers are next. 

Just commiserating and watching him get old. 

He is crabby and does not like being bumped (I don't blame him).
He is also guarding his food which is something he has never done before. He has run Havoc off his food twice this week which leads me to believe he is hungry. No change in food or amount- so I am beginning to wander if he is having a metabolic problem.

Will give him a few days and then time to find a vet here I think. He should have settled in from the move by now.

Old age bites - for people and dogs.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Kathy,

So sorry that Max is having a tough time. I have Chama on 3 meals a day now since 2 just didn't seem to be working for her--she was hungry and getting cranky about it. I feed her the same amount but spread it out more and that seems to be working much better. 

Big hugs to you and to Max!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Has his thyroid been checked lately? 

Canine Cognitive Dysfunction?


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## rover51 (Apr 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your Max. How old is he?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

The adjustment may have a lot to do with this, especially pottying in the house. He is used to knowing where doors are at your old house and knowing how to time things to get out the door on time. This is a huge adjustment for him. 

Yes, I would find him a new vet. Perhaps he developed a UTI from the move and the stress. Perhaps his kidneys are weakened (BUN and creatinine numbers will tell you that). Start with a complete work up at the new vet. Complete CBC, urinalysis (a UA at least; but I'd prefer a culture and sensitivity), thyroid function. But don't get down. I wouldn't yet. Older kids just don't adjust as fast as we expect. That doesn't mean they won't. But it takes more time. 

In the meantime, if you can, perhaps you can feed him a bit more food? In addition (or instead), add pumpkin to his food to bulk it up? He may have something that's causing him to be hungry. Until we know what it is, I'd be inclined to give him a bit more sustenance.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Max is 10.5 approximately, not really that old. Pumpkin makes him sick. Thyroid was normal just before we left. He does have CCD and it is getting worse. 

I have upped his food but I suspect his kidneys are slowing down. I am afraid he may be developing diabetes.

He gets probiatics, fish oil, we switch back and forth between Rimadyl and Tramadol. Added the herbal urinary support today and ordered prebiotics. I even bought a Herbs for Dogs book from Dr Tilford's website. 

He is just getting old ---- poor guy! 

I have an appointment for him this Friday.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

If you're thinking kidney failure, you may likely want to hold off on the rimadyl til you get bloodwork back. You may be able to increase your dose of Tramadol. Can you talk to your vet back in OR who can confirm this for you? NSAIDs and renal failure are really bad combination. 

We stopped Rimadyl cold turkey and started Adequan injections. I have to say, I never thought we could do without Rimadyl. Boni did so well on it. But Adequan makes a huge difference. You may want to add that to your list of things to ask about. 

I'll be saying prayers that you hear only good things on Friday. Simple _easily treatable _ stuff...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Cholodin?
http://www.drugs.com/vet/cholodin.html
http://www.mvplabs.com/products--supplements.html

I don't know if it did anything for Kramer. I got the first bottle for free from the vet (and it's not bad in price) just a month or so before he got sick. He liked the pills so much that I just gave them to him as treats. Fishy smelling! Who knows, but at the price and the fact that he liked them, and they were supposed to be good for the liver as well...eh! 

But I do think the big move has thrown him off his game totally. He probably relied on things being the same to center him (I know that sounds new agey but can't think of a better way to put it) and now it's the same, but different. 

I would pay cash money to be able to see what they see for a day. 

Please give him a big XOXO-if I remember he is a GORGEOUS boy!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, I'm so sorry to hear about Max problems. He's such a sweet big bear. I hope the vet will help to figure out how to help him. I know Debbi gives Tasha some injections for the spondilosis and Tasha feels SO much better. Maybe, it's the same Adequan that 3K9Mom is talking about??


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Most likely! I was kind of holding Adequan for the end run. We used that for one our bridge dogs and it gave her relief short term only. The more you give it the more frequent it becomes necessary and the less relief it brings. 

Max is a long way from checking out I think but it is still frustrating as we are having to get up twice a night to let him out. This is pretty recent and it may be a UTI- that would be easy. 

BTW the vet that Debbi uses is the same one you are using? Both Max and Kayos were terrified of him. I quit going there because of that. I'll email you back tonight!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh no, I just saw this! Kathy, I'm so sorry your old guy isn't doing well. Ditto on what Lori said about hoping for "simple easily treatable" news at your vet appointment.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Only had to get up once with him last night and I am not even sure if he had to potty or was just being uncomfortable. 

We switch back and forth between the Tramadol and Rimadyl because the tramadol makes him very sick to his stomach after about 2 weeks on it. He does better on the Rimadyl but he has aslo reacted to that with upset stomach. It seems if I switch back and forth every few weeks and give his 2 days off between switches he does very well. But even that is limited as he is still sliding down hill.

We had a hard time moving him and it took 2 of us to get him in and out of the car on the move down here. We had considered not taking him but putting him down was not an option as he is still bright eyed and engaging with us most of the time. As long as he was able to get up without too much pain we knew he would make it, and he did. 

If he makes this winter I think we will have him another year yet, he still doing pretty good just getting up there.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

No words of wisdom here, just a bunch of


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Joe asked me on the way to work this morning if it was just him or did Max seem sad? I have been denying it. Max has lost his sparkle and a lot of his interest in life. He still likes to be petted, still wants to inhale his food, but he has no interest in playing and wants to be left alone and sleep a lot. He seems unable to get comfortable and Joe thinks he is in pain. This has just come about within the last few weeks. We have been here in OK now for almost 2 months so it is not the move that caused this. 

Mind you, my hubby is far more intuitive about stuff than I am. He can spot a problem with the dogs or cats long before I can. Max is slipping on us and I hope I can change meds and keep hjim more comfortable. 

He goes to our new vet tomorrow at 10. I am not looking forward to it as I am afraid of what we may find and hear.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Sorry to hear this about Max, i know exactly what your going through, Toby13 1/2 is slipping as well.
maybe it is time for Adaquin, also maybe you should try a different anti-inflammatory, none of mine ever did well in the stomach dept with Rymadyl. Meloxicam AKA metacam was always the easiest on them. i always careful to give the meds about 20minutes to a half hour after a meal, plus i always give it with a piece of bread or something that fills up the stomach so it is less likely to cause upset.
hopefully you can find some answers to the problem, but i agree there could be some degree of pain.
i am assuming he has just old age arthritis, no spinal issues etc?

debbie


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Debbie he has Spondylosis and Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. He just seems to want to be left alone, he will come up for petting but not as much. He does not want to be outside and we have take him out or he will hide. Gets lost in the yard and stands by the gate with his nose in the corner. This has worsened over the last week or 10 days. 

I think he has plenty of time left yet but it just hard to see it.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Kathy, we're seeing a new holistic vet (she was an expert at a conference I attended and really seems to know what she's talking about). She just set Zamboni's Adequan dosage a lot higher. She doesn't agree that it loses its efficacy; it's just that older dogs with degenerative disease continue to deteriorate, so what once worked well doesn't work so great any more. 

Also, she mentioned that dogs who are receiving high doses of quality bio-available Glu/Chond may not see as much improvement as those who aren't. But she still feels it's worth giving the Adequan every chance to help. 

FWIW...


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

I agree the Adaquin doesn't hurt, and i think it makes most of us feel better to think we are doing one more thing to help make them comfortable.

Kathy, Toby has the spondylosis as well, with that...things start getting compressed in the lower spine, as i am sure you know, at some point when things are pretty much fused there isn't any pain, but doesn't mean there isn't pain somewhere else, or another issue.

it does sound like he's lost, depressed, by what you described above, but those behaviors can also be associated with other health issues. but if it is that, maybe B-vitamins or a good all around supplement may help? Toby has been on the Canine Complete which has everything in it, i love the stuff, and really believe its helped him both mentally and physically. worth trying at this point.

debbie


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Well I liked the new vet. He was very thorough and was very happy I had all of Max's records with me. He teased me about "all 7 chapters"!

On physical exam Max is underweight, he has lost 6 pounds since we moved. I knew he had dropped some weight but not that much. It is hard to tell under all his fur. He was clearly uncomfortable and hobbling when he walked. 

I fasted Max this AM just in case and they kept him for a few hours to get some urine and draw blood. His UA was normal, no sugar and no sign of UTI. His bloodwork was all normal, no elevated glucose ( I was afraid of diabetes). His creat was a tick high but it has always been that way and with the other kidney values well within normal limits the vet did not consider it abnormal. His liver enzymes were all normal as was his CBC. Ultrasound of his abdomen was normal.

So no bad news.

On Wednesday he goes back in for cortisol levels, full thyroid panel and xrays of his spine. The vet suspects possible Cushings or Addisons and wants to check the progression of the Spondylosis and insure there is no osteosarcoma. I guess the cortisol levels test is done early in the day and then they give him a little bit of Dexamethasone and then draw blood again at 4 hours and 8 hours after the dex. They will send it off to Michigan for the test and the thyroid will also be done there. 

Max has had the thyroid deal before and it was borderline but it is not a bad idea to check it again as it has been a year. 

If all of this comes back normal we are looking at the loss of control as just plain "forgetting" in his old age. 

He is in significant discomfort but the vet does not want to change his regime until after he does some more testing. He says we can look at Deramaxx, Metacam, Prevocox or adequan instead of Rimadyl and Tramadol.

So maybe some answers in another week or so.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Kathy,
wow! so far everything is normal...hoping the other tests go well sending good thoughts your way on that!

i would try some of the other anti-inflammatories as i said Metacam/meloxicam was always the easiest on mine, and i would also do the adaquin. i am sure you will look into all this as soon as the rest of the tests are done!

debbie


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Kathy,
We've recently switched to Etogesic which is back on the market. It makes a big difference. (Were on Derramax.)


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

About the thyroid being borderline - We thought Wooly Bear had doggie dementia. We even treated with Anapryl. Turns out it was his thyroid.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Max was on thyroid med for about 6 months a year or so ago and it made no difference for him. I understand thyroid testing for dogs is not as reliable as it is for humans. But it will be interesting to see the test results.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Kathy I am sorry to hear that Max is lost some spark. If I have time tommorow there are a few things I want to research on the CCD. I have an idea but I want to do some research first.

Val


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Please do! Anything helps as I just want him to feel better.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Kathy,

I found what I was looking for. I knew there was a drug and a more natural approach to CCD.

The natural approach is giving Omega3, antioxidants and B vitamin choline supplement. 
In this link is the natural also the drug approach http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art25417.asp

Here is another supporting the drug approach
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/cognitive-dysfunction-in-elderly-dogs/page1.aspx 

I am going to say after reading the links that most of what you are seeing in Max is CCD. Everything he is doing is classic symptoms, here is a list of the symptoms:
Reduced activity



> Quote:Increased sleeping
> 
> Reduced responsiveness to commands/apparent deafness
> 
> ...





> Quote:This starch-like protein builds up, becomes waxy, and forms plaque. As plaque builds up, it clogs the brain and inhibits the transmission of signals from the brain. In both Alzheimer's and Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, excessive senile plaque leads to more severe cognitive impairment.


I would talk to your Vet and see. I would start either the Natural approach or drug therapy, or combination of the two real soon. 

Val


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Hey Val thank you very much!!! 

Max has been on alpha lipoic acid for CCD already with no real observable difference so I stopped it. The new vet I saw yesterday even said if we rule out any thing physical than we are looking at CCD. MAx is a pretty healthy dog and I think this is CCD but I am not gong to deny him a full work up for other causes either.

I just hate to see such a vibrant dog grow old. At least he knows us and is still fairly connected to us. If that were to go it would break my heart.

I will read those links tonight when we are hunkering down during fireworks. Max hates them. 

Thanks again.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Max (Update vet today)*

Growing old sucks. Sorry about Max









You might want to go over to http://www.lef.org and search for cognitive stuff. They know of some supps that are supposed to help in early dementia - just read about it in a recent magazine of theirs, march maybe, a tiny blurb


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWMost likely! I was kind of holding Adequan for the end run. We used that for one our bridge dogs and it gave her relief short term only. The more you give it the more frequent it becomes necessary and the less relief it brings.


Is this common?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Is what common? Use of Adequan? It is a pretty common injectable drug but it seemed to me that it was not long term, however many here have had good results long term.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

No one had mentioned that it was a "short term" fix. LJ has been doing the Adequan injections. Lately I had started to wonder if it was still working.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Kramer was on it for almost three years...I did not notice it not working-it leveled out as far as improvements noted. I kept him on the Synovi G3 the whole time. 

I think he had "better" structure than a GSD in terms of function, so that may have been in his favor. 

Sounds like great plans for Max and a very good vet! 

Are there things he really likes doing? Rides? Obedience? Things that set off a spark? I had Kramer who was really super into things and so to keep his mind going we'd do those, and then Nina, who was never really excited about much, and it was more of a struggle, and she was more cognitively challenged/flatter affect, but little stuff would get her perked up and keep things flowing. I miss her silly hobbies! (sexually harassing Bruno, hoarding tiny pieces of paper, going to the vet office and jumping at the door after her appointment)


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Max loves to play fetch and we do as much as we can. He likes walks but I have to walk him on grass as the concrete seems to really hurt his joints. So we try to load up and go to the park every now and then so he can walk on grass. 

The Adequan lost effectivieness for my old girl after about 9 months. I really think it was not a matter of it "losing " effectiveness so much as she probably just got that much worse. So maybe I have this thing in my head that it won't help Max long term either. And if it does not we can try something else, there is so much more out there now. 

I guess I have this thought in my head that adequan eqauls the last step and I mentally don't want to go there with Max. I also know that is not true. 

I think Max is in fine health other than the spondylosis and his mind going.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Toby has been on Adaquin for at least 4 years, and he's 13 1/2, no adverse effects that are detrimental at all, occasionally he might have a bit of diarrhea the day after the shot, but easily fixed, i give him Immodium right after the shot and one tablet usually takes care of it. i personally think its a great addition to a seniors regiman, and its one of those things where if you can just do one more thing to help them stay comfortable.......

debbie


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