# Crazy colors or am I just crazy!?



## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

I posted in puppy pictures but I'm thinking it wasn't the appropriate thread so here we go! I appreciate all input thanks ahead of time!

Looking for some insight on these babies. Dad is Duke the black gsd on the far right. Mama is Daisy on the far left. we ended up with 
-two obvious sable males
-2 black females with white blazes
-one black male
-two females with brown feet and brown on their face 
-two seemingly solid black females. 
Just recently the black girl with white blaze and the black male are turning brown and have gray underneath.

Duke has no other color than black and Daisy is a Black and Tan I'm assuming since her saddle is black down to the roots. How in the world did we get sables and why are the black puppies getting this funky coloring? I've done some reading and still can't find anything on black puppies changing color. Help! 

*female solid black is still solid black

Also I hope I'm inserting the pic links correctly!! New here 

Second pic is pups at 2weeks. Thought they looked like some strange coloring.

3rd is black male at 3weeks 3days

4th pic is same male at 7weeks


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sable is dominant, black is recessive, so there in usually sable hidden in the genes. The black with white are probably bicolor. Puppies can change colors for a long time, except for the solid black with no white or tan. Why did you decide to mix lines? When you do that, outcomes are unpredictable.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

How do you mean mix lines?

We bred our dogs because of their temperament. We had friends and family clear up in CT and local too of course who wanted a gsd. Duke and Daisy are probably the most easy going and lovable dogs I've ever met. They let the kids hang and hug all over them. Just well behaved I suppose but I gotta hand it to their friendly nature. 

I remember biology and how genes worked to a high school level but with all the reading I've been doing I'm baffled. We love sables TO DEATH and have always wanted one. Just never had any luck finding one local so I'm thrilled that we've got sable babies just totally clueless on the blackies getting all silver and brown!


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

You cannot get sable puppies if neither of the parents are sable. So either your female is in fact a sable (can't really see her in the picture), or another male got to her when she was in heat.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Sable is dominant so you need at least one sable parent to get sable puppies.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

How can sable be dominant and not show on an all black dog when black is recessive? Also one of the girls who had no white and a boy who just had 3 white hairs are both turning


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

You cannot "hide" sable behind black or black/tan.

If you have sable puppies, at least one parent was sable. 

Color Genetics in German Shepherds


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Brianna Zombri said:


> How can sable be dominant and not show on an all black dog when black is recessive? Also one of the girls who had no white and a boy who just had 3 white hairs are both turning


If you have black puppies, it means that the mother carries a black gene. Since each puppy gets one gene from the mother, and one gene from the father, you can have black puppies if she passed on her recessive gene. As for the white blazes on the black puppies, it is not uncommon for there to be white patches when puppies are really young. They usually disappear as they get older.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Brianna Zombri said:


> How do you mean mix lines?
> 
> We bred our dogs because of their temperament. We had friends and family clear up in CT and local too of course who wanted a gsd. Duke and Daisy are probably the most easy going and lovable dogs I've ever met. They let the kids hang and hug all over them. Just well behaved I suppose but I gotta hand it to their friendly nature.
> 
> I remember biology and how genes worked to a high school level but with all the reading I've been doing I'm baffled. We love sables TO DEATH and have always wanted one. Just never had any luck finding one local so I'm thrilled that we've got sable babies just totally clueless on the blackies getting all silver and brown!


The mother looks like a Black and Tan WGSL and the sire looks WL. Did you test the dogs before you bred them?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Are the parents related?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is something called a dilute. I wonder if the light pup in the second picture is a blue: maybe a diluted black or diluted black and tan. It will be interesting to see how he/she looks at 8 weeks and beyond. Usually the liver dilutes will have a brown nose and paw pads, and the black dilutes will have grey.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Brianna Zombri said:


> I posted in puppy pictures but I'm thinking it wasn't the appropriate thread so here we go! I appreciate all input thanks ahead of time!
> 
> Looking for some insight on these babies. Dad is Duke the black gsd on the far right. Mama is Daisy on the far left. we ended up with
> -two obvious sable males
> ...


What does this mean? I have a Black and Tan who is only black on the tips? What's the difference?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dog to far right could be a pattern sable.

I have one with similar colour pattern here is the pedigree

Griswald van Xazziam

do you have a pedigree for the sire and dam?

one pup is sable . one pup is black . two look to be liver . The colour is quite brown/chocolate when seen beside the black.

that is a dilution factor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the bitch does not carry the black gene, than I think what you have are black and tan puppies where the grey could be silver, and that will grow. They will be blanket backs probably, but black and silver or black and tan -- all are black and tan just different levels of pigment. So a black and silver is black and tan without much pigment in the tan.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, neither of those bitches look patterned sable to me, but I'm not an expert on sables, for sure. The pup looks sable, but I've only seen one blue black and tan (in person) and it did not really look like that, just looked more grey than the other puppies.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Thanks for everyone's response! 
The pups all have black pads and noses. And out of the 5 blacks, 3 are changing, one has not. Not worried about the blaze, Daisy has one and I think it's fabulous <3

I have been reading a bunch and I've learned about penciling. Well really just what the term means.. 3 of the pups have it on their paws, one of the girls with white blaze has white penciling on her toes. Not sure if that's relevant.

I've read that a patterned sable can appear to be a B/T saddle but if you turn the fur you see a lot of colors. Daisy is not like that. Her undercoat looks grayish but elsewise totally black except her bitch stripe. The male in the middle is patterned I believe since his entire saddle is tri-colored hair when you flip it. The black male is totally black, every inch so I guess that means he has to be a+a right? All black genes? His mom was black and his dad a BT or possibly a patterned sable I suppose...

Daisy's parents looked to be BT but her dad's saddle was semi-sandy around the edges (I had never heard of a patterned sable until 3 days ago so now I'm second guessing every saddle!)

I love gray/blue and liver tho. Just found out about those. I had never heard of anything other than the dark and light sables, BT and black and white gsds-so amazing how unique each and every one can be imo!!

I don't think they are either but I guess I need to looking into what a dilute is. One of the brown feet girls I suspected to have a blanket. 

Lastly.. hypothetically speaking.. let's say my male (major who is pictured in the middle) got ahold of my female. I know they can have more than one-puppy-daddy but can the reproduce if there isn't a "locking" of the two? I know he tried and I believe it was before she went into heat (no bleeding at that time). I really don't think anything happened. They were playing and he was trying to mount but jumped right off.. 
*sorry for the novella!


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Here's what the little black boy looks like now


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

By no means an expert here but if the male in the middle is a patterned sable and intact then I'm going to say that both your males sired pups in this litter since you have sables in the litter. But what do I know


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

His mom was black and his dad a BT or possibly a patterned sable I suppose..

then it can NOT be sable .

what you are probably dealing with is lack of strong pigment -- washed out


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Brianna Zombri said:


> View attachment 410089
> 
> 
> Here's what the little black boy looks like now


This almost reminds me of seal... which isn't present in GSDs. Very odd coat color indeed! Will be curious to see how that pup grows up but I wonder if someone else snuck in their DNA as none of this adds up. It's possible mom could be a patterned sable but from my understanding that generally implies they carry for the saddle pattern... not black. 

I don't see dilution though, if the dilution gene is present it is not possible for there to be any black in the coat as it turns all black to blue/grey. Same goes for liver, liver changes all black in the coat to liver. Those two genes only affect eumelanin pigment, not phaeomelanin. Basically it does not affect the tan in the coat, only areas that would be black.

Here's a little more info on seal... unfortunately it's not really understood. 
Dog Coat Colour Genetics


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Why did you breed these two dogs together?


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Daisy's coat:


Daisy's as puppy:


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Also check out this little girl, it's Macy and the entire pregnancy I read how to pick out a long coat.. everything was from you guys here on the forum! Wanted to see what you thought. She has the wavy look when born and schnauzer looking head.

3wks5days








And 7wks with funky colors


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Yeah... I would say another dog sired some of these puppies.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

What are the parents' OFA scores? Were they tested for DM?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dotbat215 said:


> What are the parents' OFA scores? Were they tested for DM?



I wondered that too. I asked yesterday if they had been tested but didn't get an answer. I'm wondering how easy it will be to place puppies with no prior testing. Is there a pedigree on them? Are the parents titled in anything?


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm wondering how easy it will be to place puppies with no prior testing.


Probably pretty easy. Around here we still have pet stores that sell puppies even though I personally think awareness regarding pet stores and unethical breeders is pretty high....people want cute and they want it fast. 

Given that, I think there are plenty of folks who won't know to ask about hips, elbows, DM, etc. They'll see happy dog parents, cute pups, and no Sarah McLaughlinesqu conditions and think they found a responsible breeder. 

But with the information and technology that is now available to breeders, love is not enough.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dotbat215 said:


> Probably pretty easy. Around here we still have pet stores that sell puppies even though I personally think awareness regarding pet stores and unethical breeders is pretty high....people want cute and they want it fast.
> 
> Given that, I think there are plenty of folks who won't know to ask about hips, elbows, DM, etc. They'll see happy dog parents, cute pups, and no Sarah McLaughlinesqu conditions and think they found a responsible breeder.
> 
> But with the information and technology that is now available to breeders, love is not enough.


What bothers me is that the parents obviously have good temperaments. But I wonder how much is genetic and how much is due to the way they were handled at home. When a person has several GSDs that are all relatively happy and easy dogs, it is very possible she is a good handler and instinctively knows how to pull that behavior from her dogs. With a random breeding, it's impossible to tell if the puppies will naturally be that sweet and easy. Breeders watch their lines and progeny to know what they are producing. Is the OP prepared to take back cute puppies when they are 8 months old and out of control?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, the puppies are on the ground so that ship has sailed. Giving advice for testing in future, might be useful. 

I agree that very likely the sire of at least some of these pups in not a GSD.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Muskeg, oh, I agree. Just saying for the future. How is that possible if she has only two male GSDs and it was planned?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

A suggestion for the OP. Put together a puppy packet for your buyers on socialization and training. The breeders here can help you. Make sure the people who take your puppies understand the important of raising a young GSD with structure and consistency, and how to do that. You have obviously done that well with your dogs.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Brianna Zombri said:


> How do you mean mix lines?
> 
> We bred our dogs because of their temperament.


Generally a lot more should go into the thought process of why to breed than just ‘they are nice dogs’. That’s why that question was asked.

If you intend to breed again at LEAST get their hips and elbows checked. A dog should have decent OFA scores to be eligible to breed.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Duke came with guaranteed health and hip. His parents were AKC registered. Daisy did not. We lost everything including all of his paperwork in a house fire. Majors parents were registered but I didn't care for papers so I didn't pay for them or receive them. Here is majors fur and a picture of his mom and dad respectively. 

I totally respect and understand the health issues. My mom worked at a veterinary hospital for 10 years and bred Boston terriers (papered). We wanted to have puppies just once for the experience. All of the puppies went to relatives and close friends except for 3 and I stay in contact with them because they are more than pets, they are family! I feel good about the entire experience and enjoyed every minute. Our dogs work our farm, herd the cow when we had him and protect the chickens. They even herd the chickens into the coop if I need them to. The puppies are getting fixed by their owners and they were wanting companions. 

I've done some reading on VetGen to have some testing done with the coats. I'm not sure how to find out more about Daisy's genealogy. 

Majors mom and dad:


Major:


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> A suggestion for the OP. Put together a puppy packet for your buyers on socialization and training. The breeders here can help you. Make sure the people who take your puppies understand the important of raising a young GSD with structure and consistency, and how to do that. You have obviously done that well with your dogs.


Thank you. The 3 pups that have owners that are not friends or family have all had gsds who have crossed the rainbow bridge at 14+ years of age. I've never met anyone who has owned one and hasn't fallen in absolute love with this amazing breed. It has brought me joy to have given them companionship once again.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Daisy is definitely a Black and Tan from her puppy pictures. 

After seeing some of the additional puppy pictures you posted, I'm in the "some other dog got to the mom" camp, and probably not a pure-bred GSD.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

carmspack said:


> dog to far right could be a pattern sable.
> 
> I have one with similar colour pattern here is the pedigree
> 
> ...


I just prodded Duke over and over every inch. He has tipped hairs around his eyes. I came here knowing nothing and learning a lot and I appreciate every piece of advice you are all offering me. I know that it is possible that Major could have fathered the two sable boys, just because I believe that Daisy could have been going into heat with out any signs. I feel like that is a possible thing since God works in mysterious ways. Major, like I mentioned, tries to mate every female he meets regardless of their reproduction status or lack there of. I also know that other than Duke and Possibly Major no other dog could have gotten ahold of Daisy. We get coyotes and some wild dogs up here in the middle of nowhere and our males keep them at bay. But because of that we made sure both were secure. I've read that the way a female releases eggs is over a period of days/weeks so if indeed Major managed to fertilize with out the common knotting I would say the two sables are his. 

My original question was about some of the black pups turning brown. With the two sables aside, is it possible that Duke is in fact a type of sable and the blackish brown pups are a type of sable? I've seen sooo many different looking sables and have to say looking at pics of black sable puppies I see a resemblance. Macy does have a solid black stripe down her back. 

I swear I'm not trying to divulge information piece by piece just having ideas and questions pop into my head as this riddle unfolds. 

Also I really have found myself on this forum soooo many times since I first got Daisy and it's loaded with greatness. A post somewhere on here was talking about picking LC out at birth and onward. I love little Macy regardless of her color or her coat length but I really think she's got the LC going on. She has the most amazing personality as well, one couldn't help but love her! Again I appreciate the positive thinkers on here and pointers for the future. My mom and I had two therapy dogs that we trained and had cert together back when I was a preteen. I owe everything to her when it comes to my big heart and patience.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm not a color genetics expert. Could the black father throw sable pups if he has sable in his line? I know a lot of black GSD's do come out of sable lines. Only explanation I could come up with.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

SiegersMom said:


> I'm not a color genetics expert. Could the black father throw sable pups if he has sable in his line? I know a lot of black GSD's do come out of sable lines. Only explanation I could come up with.


No. A black dog has to have two copies of the black gene in order to be black. So black is the only color that dog can give to a puppy. All puppies with one black parent will have at least one black gene.


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## Ana Hernandez (Feb 28, 2017)

Hi everyone just quick qs my dog is having red tiny spots on her tongue. Does anyone know what it is?


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Daisy is definitely a Black and Tan from her puppy pictures.
> 
> After seeing some of the additional puppy pictures you posted, I'm in the "some other dog got to the mom" camp, and probably not a pure-bred GSD.


I agree as well. The dam is definitely B/T and the other male looks B/T too...


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Cschmidt88 said:


> I agree as well. The dam is definitely B/T and the other male looks B/T too...



Do you really think Major is a BT? His hairs are tri colored under his saddle and his dad...well was GOREGEOUS in my opinion. I don't know much about sables but this patterned sable makes me think looks can be deceiving. I found a chart that makes sense to me and I want to share it with all looking at this thread. 
(Hope it's ok to share links!)
Color Genetics in German Shepherds


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think sending in DNA of both sires and dam, and then of each puppy might give you a better idea of what you got going. Black and Black and tan will not produce sable. That one pup looks sable. I could be wrong, but sending the DNA to the AKC might be able to clear it up.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

selzer said:


> I think sending in DNA of both sires and dam, and then of each puppy might give you a better idea of what you got going. Black and Black and tan will not produce sable. That one pup looks sable. I could be wrong, but sending the DNA to the AKC might be able to clear it up.


Do you recommend vetgen? Or perhaps another lab? Also what type of testing should I have done. Honestly I can't afford every test for Coat, length and background but I would like to have a DNA test done. Just looking for recommendations. I was hoping someone on here had all the answers lol I know you guys know your stuff! Also, and maybe this is the same thing but can I find pedigree doing a DNA test? Thanks ahead of time!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay , getting a better look at the female - she is not sable . 

you had a visitor .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hope the pups are all solid in health and temperament and that they have long and happy fulfilled lives.

you can not promote them as purebred --- NO breeding them .


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

carmspack said:


> okay , getting a better look at the female - she is not sable .
> 
> you had a visitor .


After looking at her saddle closely I had no doubt my female, pictured on the far left was a BT. There is no way possible we had a visitor "jump the fence". It's not possible. It's Alcatraz and that's indeed what we call one of the lots. It's for real Alcatraz. When she went into heat we put her and the black male, Duke together. If a bitch can get pregnant before she begins to bleed then maybe some of Majors residue impregnated her, if that's even possible. They were together playing a few days before any bleeding. Without a doubt no other males were even near her. 
I don't know how "washed out" coat colors occur and I'd like to learn more about it. They aren't blue or liver so if that's all that "washed out" means then that's not the case, I don't know. I'm not irritated with anyone on here by any means but gsd Coat colors in general are so vast. Can a litter have more than one color of sable produced? Is it possible she IS B/T with a recessive sable gene? She is for sure a BT and I understand a black gsd is black/black no questions asked. If somehow Major impregnated her, some magical way, could his daddy be the gene Macy caught? Also I believe someone in this thread said sable is dominant? Is bi-color? Was Majors daddy bi-color or sable? I'm baffled still but I know for SURE if this was Maury (lol) there are only two possible puppy-daddies. 

*side note: my husband calls me the hall monitor.. I'm a stay at home mom currently and nothing up here goes unnoticed. No a single car, bird or dog. No cable no internet no kidding. I pay keen attention to detail and without much to do I micromanage my fur babies. It's sad but true!

Daisy, Major and Duke respectively:


Majors mom and dad respectively:


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sable cannot be a recessive gene. It is the dominant color gene, so if it is passed onto a puppy, that is the gene that is expressed. A black and tan simply cannot pass on a sable gene, even if there are sables further back in the pedigree. That's not how genetics work. Also, your female HAS to carry black, as she produced black puppies. So she expresses black and tan, and carries black. There is no way a sable gene is coming from her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the male pictured above is not a bi-colour - he is a black and tan.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So then Major is a black and tan. Daisy is a black and tan. The dog, Duke is a black. 

Black is recessive to all others, so he has a black/black color gene. No sable coming from him. 

The dam is black and tan, and sable is dominant to B/T so she is not giving us a sable. So, that implies a visitor.

I was talking DNA to determine paternity (AKC). If you have two sires and a bitch, you can send in their respective dna samples, and then send in the pup's samples and they can tell you which dog sired which pups. They can actually have registered, multiple sired litters now. Of course, the OP, sees no use in papers, and didn't bother to pay for them, so, I really don't think that is an option.


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## sarcroth (Feb 23, 2017)

I would hope that the people who are purchasing these puppies are aware that as of right now the sire is not 100% known, particularly if they are paying a good amount of money for them. If you are giving them away or just asking a small re-homing fee then that's all fine and dandy but if you are asking for a higher fee you might run into some trouble if you are not being up front with the people who are getting the puppies.

I would also hope that if it turns out down the road there was indeed a visitor that ended up siring some of them and they are not purebred puppies that you are willing to accept the fact that some of the owners may be quite upset with you if you are advertising them as such and are pricing them as such.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think that people who are purchasing these puppies need to also be informed that these pups were bred without regard to the breed standard when it comes to temperament. From what OP has stated, they seem to have a Golden Retriever temperament. Poor temperament would be a bigger deal breaker to me than an off color or being mixed breed. I would even rather have a dog with less than stellar health than to have a temperament not representative of the breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Golden Retrievers are intelligent, energetic, and very trainable. They have a soft mouth, and I doubt the GSDs will have that. They are bird dogs, and I doubt the GSDs will excel at that. There are enough likenesses between the two breeds to find good home for the pups. But the thing is, just because the sire and dam are the temperament that the owner says is like GRs, doesn't mean the entire litter will be that way. 

We have far more people come on saying, "He's biting everything and I can't get him to calm down!" than people saying, "Well, the pup is just so much like a Golden Retriever, so disappointed, I wanted an alligator."

The pups are here, they just need to find the right homes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Brianna Zombri said:


> How can sable be dominant and not show on an all black dog when black is recessive? Also one of the girls who had no white and a boy who just had 3 white hairs are both turning


oh dear. 

In order to get a sable, a parent has to be a sable. It's a dominant gene. Only ONE gene is required to create a sable.

In order to get a black, BOTH parent have to carry the gene for black because it's a recessive gene. 

Sables are aw. Blacks are a. Each puppy gets one copy of a gene from each parent. If the puppies are black then each parent has at least one "a" gene. You do not need an "aw" from each parent in order to get a sable. BUT one of the parents MUST be a sable in order to get sable puppies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SiegersMom said:


> I'm not a color genetics expert. Could the black father throw sable pups if he has sable in his line? I know a lot of black GSD's do come out of sable lines. Only explanation I could come up with.


No. The black father can only contribute the "a" gene. A sable pup can only come from a sable parent.

For instance, my dog is a sable with a black sire. His color genes are aw/a. His mother's color genes were aw/a as her mother was sable and father was black. 

If I were to breed my dog to a female with the 'a' gene they could potentially produce blacks. They could produce sables because my male is sable. 

But a black and a black/tan do not have the aw gene to produce a sable.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Golden Retrievers are intelligent, energetic, and very trainable. They have a soft mouth, and I doubt the GSDs will have that. They are bird dogs, and I doubt the GSDs will excel at that. There are enough likenesses between the two breeds to find good home for the pups. But the thing is, just because the sire and dam are the temperament that the owner says is like GRs, doesn't mean the entire litter will be that way.
> 
> We have far more people come on saying, "He's biting everything and I can't get him to calm down!" than people saying, "Well, the pup is just so much like a Golden Retriever, so disappointed, I wanted an alligator."
> 
> The pups are here, they just need to find the right homes.


Can't agree at all. The Goldens I have met are OVERLY friendly, totally lack reserve, aren't very loyal, soft and good luck finding one that will protect or guard. There are enough differences in KEY areas that almost ensure that somebody looking for a GSD somewhat representative of the breed in behavior will be severely disappointed and may be highly tempted to dump at a shelter.

As most of the pros I have seen post on here have stated, and I agree, the majority of problems with these dogs that people post on here are due to the owner, not the dog. I have seen you post too many times that you do not have these problems and I have agreed with you. I don't think between the two of us and all the dogs that we owned that we just happened to get lucky so many times. 

I do agree with the pups are here, they need to find the right homes. That is why I posted for the OP to make sure they let prospective owners know the temperament expected from this litter is not what one should expect from a typical GSD, but a typical GR.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

In the pictures posted you see a normal 4ft chain link. This is the play yard by the house. We've got a lot in the barn that only a raccoon could escape and another lot that is Alcatraz. I cannot stress enough there wasn't a visitor. I went back and looked at Majors pictures when he was 8 weeks and he looks just like the darker sable pup just more fuzz. Trying to upload a pic......

I think, in regards to lab tests, I want to test Duke to see if he is a true black. I know all of the black pups are his for one simple reason, they all have back dew claws as does Duke. I will say this, when he sheds his fur turns red. You can see some dead hair in the pic of just him and Daisy and it's a deep red- is that normal for dead shedding fur? I don't know. 
As far as informing the puppy owners, they know it's a possibility Major sired. They also know me. Even the 3 people I don't know personally got to know me over the course of a couple weeks. I'm honest and I'm upfront. 

I've checked in on the babies and maintain an open line of communication. The coat colors, genetics and mating are new to me and I know I don't know everything there is to know. I know the two obvious sables are the "odd balls" of the bunch and how Major pulled it off still bewilders me. 

Everyone adding to this thread has really helped inform me on many different aspects but the blackies getting brownish is stumping me. They have a black stripe down their back and black pads and nose. How could Duke looks as black as he does and not be a true black? I feel like that is the missing link at this point.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

He can't. That's what people are trying to explain. The black dog, Duke is black. Unless the female is sable, they cannot be his pups if they are sable. PERIOD. 

And some of those pups are sable looking.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

the last few comments have made me giggle and I've had to reread them to get a good understanding. It's funny because the therapy dogs my family and I trained WERE in fact golden retrievers! Oh how I loved them!!! My apologies if I talked too kindly of our gsds and gave you the wrong idea. They are German shepherds. They are loyal. Daisy will not leave my sons side no matter where he goes. She cries if he's is playing in the creek and she can't get to him. If she's with him she stays with him, I don't care if the oscar Meyer wiener truck pulls up, she is staying put. Major is a land shark if I ever met one. I show no fear around him and I know it's why he is loyal to me and me only. Duke is loyal to my husband but loves my son. They know their places. They are protective and unless we tell people they are friendly you don't see anyone rushing up to pet them. It's a gsd thing- lol! 

HOWEVER I feel that considering their well mannered, patient and loyal character they do in fact make wonder family dogs. They make phenomenal guard dogs. They keep our farm animals in line and safe. They keep coyotes away. Our coop door tends to stay open and we've lost 0 chickens to critters or coyotes. It's a gsd thing, you all know that. The new owners know that. We don't have golden retrievers by any means. We've got two that are more friendly and one land shark. I know I'm new here but honestly I'm not trying to get one over on ANYONE. I'm a military brat and a God fearing woman. I give respect. I've been upfront with everyone in regards to our gsds and their offspring. Genetics are deep and having two males and a female in cahoots convoluted this whole thing in my opinion. The black pups owners, myself included, aren't bothered they have brown popping up. I'm the one sitting here scratching my head wondering how? How beautiful!


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

gsdsar said:


> He can't. That's what people are trying to explain. The black dog, Duke is black. Unless the female is sable, they cannot be his pups if they are sable. PERIOD.
> 
> And some of those pups are sable looking.


Ok so here's what I'm getting (aside from tired)
So Duke is black. Bottom line. Red dead-fur is meaningless and he is black. Well ****. 

Daisy is Black and Tan. No sable there because she is Black and Tan. Black and Tan cannot have recessive sable gene because sable is above B/T. Could she have another recessive gene she passed?

Someone mentioned blanket (how the heck do you get a blanket pup? I don't have the slightest idea). 

Someone mentioned the coat color seal. Seal is a color just doesn't exist in the gsd genome (why? Heck I don't know)

Major fathered some puppies. Majors sire is a bi-color or blanket? (Beautiful amazing dog-wow- his hair parted right down the middle, so lush!) 
What are majors gene possibilities? I truly don't believe he is a B/T. But I am the newb.


...totally lost my train of thought


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Brianna Zombri said:


> Ok so here's what I'm getting (aside from tired)
> So Duke is black. Bottom line. Red dead-fur is meaningless and he is black. Well ****.
> 
> Daisy is Black and Tan. No sable there because she is Black and Tan. Black and Tan cannot have recessive sable gene because sable is above B/T. Could she have another recessive gene she passed?
> ...


No she can't have another recessive color gene... she has to have black to have produced black puppies.

Honestly? Color is probably the last thing you need to worry about here. Your dogs, while fine pets I'm sure, do not have papers. Therefore your puppies cannot be registered. It does not sound like you did any health testing prior to breeding these dogs. The risk of dysplasia or DM are more important than how you ended up with sable puppies. Breeding should involve more than just owning two dogs of the opposite sex. There is a lot that goes into matching pedigrees that simply was not done here.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Okay one thing I have to say is hat I think you underestimate how determined a dog can be when getting to a female in heat. There are dogs that have gotten into people's houses to breed their dogs. Dogs can also go up and under fences. If a coyote can get into the areas your dogs are at, so can another dog. Major doesn't really look like a sable to me, but if he if then he iss responsible for the funky looking puppies, but since he appears as far as I can tell to be a black and tan, well it's easier to break into Alcatraz than escape.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Your right! I should have had her elbows and hips tested! Yes this is true. Like I said I was honest with the other owners in regards to Dukes health testing and Daisy having no papers or tests. All I came here was to ask if anyone has ever seen seemingly black puppies get brown underneath. I've gained a lot from this forum over the years of google redirections. I've also talked with gsd owners and was informed that these issues show up sooner than later. I don't believe them because it benefited my conscious, I believe them because they have had many cross the rainbow bridge over a span of 50+ years of companionship, and/or 20+ years of K9 background. I'm not stupid. I know it can go either way but I feel confident. As a couple have said coulda woulda shoulda but I didn't. I guess if I have her checked out and all clears it's ok to become a BYB.. no. These are not my intentions. I have a perfectly good dog and I don't plan on ruining her to make a couple bucks. We had puppies intentionally. I stayed up all night making sure they were ok. I kept them clean and nails trimmed, helped 9 puppies equally nurse 10 teats and cooked Daisy breakfast every morning. They all are going to homes that will see them into old age if God so permits.

Not trying to be rude but I get it. Health tops, yes I get it. 

Back to the coat coloring. How is this handsome boy a bi-color? Wally haus ellernbach. It says he's a ddr bicolor german shepherd


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Kazel said:


> Okay one thing I have to say is hat I think you underestimate how determined a dog can be when getting to a female in heat. There are dogs that have gotten into people's houses to breed their dogs. Dogs can also go up and under fences. If a coyote can get into the areas your dogs are at, so can another dog. Major doesn't really look like a sable to me, but if he if then he iss responsible for the funky looking puppies, but since he appears as far as I can tell to be a black and tan, well it's easier to break into Alcatraz than escape.


First- I love your puppy signature!

I can totally believe that. I brought in a cat I swore was my tabby one time when I was younger. It was not my cat, she was cat napping in my bed. I know it's not the same thing but do males really gang bang females? Major tries to eat Duke up when Daisy is around, heat or not. They struggle to protect her but I keep them equally loved but separated. I've never seen a coyote here, I hear them and back up towards the back of our property my hubby has seen a pack of dogs once way back in the back field. IF Daisy could get out I guarantee another dog could have gotten in, she is Houdini in a fancy female form. And she cannot. I know it's easy to say the milkman did it but he could not have. It's easy to pick apart the whole Alcatraz thing I'm sure. But I'd like to see you get out of it without human hands  

It hurts my reputation And believability when I don't see how major impregnated her without a locking of the two but anatomically speaking it seems possible. No one on here has flat out said, they don't have to lock up to be mating but, from experience (ha..ha) it's apparently possible! The two sable boys went to my bff up in CT and she begged me to have pups with Major and Daisy, well badda-bing badda-boom guess she got it. At the time I didn't know dogs were like cats and could have more than one father but when I saw those two male pups it was my first thought. Our intentions were to breed Duke and Daisy and hope for 4-6 healthy pups. Majors endless humping made 9. Also I guess a bitch can conceive without signs of bleeding. Learn something new every day. If I ever breed again I'll surely be better informed, that's a fact. And I'm all for the health checks. I would have lost a piece of my soul had any of the puppies died. So thankful, so very thankful that all 9 survived and are thriving.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Brianna Zombri said:


> Your right! I should have had her elbows and hips tested! Yes this is true. Like I said I was honest with the other owners in regards to Dukes health testing and Daisy having no papers or tests. All I came here was to ask if anyone has ever seen seemingly black puppies get brown underneath. I've gained a lot from this forum over the years of google redirections. I've also talked with gsd owners and was informed that these issues show up sooner than later. I don't believe them because it benefited my conscious, I believe them because they have had many cross the rainbow bridge over a span of 50+ years of companionship, and/or 20+ years of K9 background. I'm not stupid. I know it can go either way but I feel confident. As a couple have said coulda woulda shoulda but I didn't. I guess if I have her checked out and all clears it's ok to become a BYB.. no. These are not my intentions. I have a perfectly good dog and I don't plan on ruining her to make a couple bucks. We had puppies intentionally. I stayed up all night making sure they were ok. I kept them clean and nails trimmed, helped 9 puppies equally nurse 10 teats and cooked Daisy breakfast every morning. They all are going to homes that will see them into old age if God so permits.
> 
> Not trying to be rude but I get it. Health tops, yes I get it.
> 
> Back to the coat coloring. How is this handsome boy a bi-color? Wally haus ellernbach. It says he's a ddr bicolor german shepherd


I also was not trying to be rude. Sorry if it came off that way.

I was only pointing out the health issues because, without careful planning and testing, they are rampant in this breed. And I feel the need to point out that technically, since you have bred a litter, you are a breeder. And since there was no health testing, the dogs are not titled and the puppies cannot be registered, you fall into the category of BYB. It's wonderful that you took great care of the puppies and your girl. And I'm glad you were able to find homes for all the puppies. It still wasn't a responsible breeding, though.

I hope someone else is able to explain color genetics to you in a way that makes sense.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Brianna Zombri said:


> First- I love your puppy signature!
> 
> I can totally believe that. I brought in a cat I swore was my tabby one time when I was younger. It was not my cat, she was cat napping in my bed. I know it's not the same thing but do males really gang bang females? Major tries to eat Duke up when Daisy is around, heat or not. They struggle to protect her but I keep them equally loved but separated. I've never seen a coyote here, I hear them and back up towards the back of our property my hubby has seen a pack of dogs once way back in the back field. IF Daisy could get out I guarantee another dog could have gotten in, she is Houdini in a fancy female form. And she cannot. I know it's easy to say the milkman did it but he could not have. It's easy to pick apart the whole Alcatraz thing I'm sure. But I'd like to see you get out of it without human hands
> 
> It hurts my reputation And believability when I don't see how major impregnated her without a locking of the two but anatomically speaking it seems possible. No one on here has flat out said, they don't have to lock up to be mating but, from experience (ha..ha) it's apparently possible! The two sable boys went to my bff up in CT and she begged me to have pups with Major and Daisy, well badda-bing badda-boom guess she got it. At the time I didn't know dogs were like cats and could have more than one father but when I saw those two male pups it was my first thought. Our intentions were to breed Duke and Daisy and hope for 4-6 healthy pups. Majors endless humping made 9. Also I guess a bitch can conceive without signs of bleeding. Learn something new every day. If I ever breed again I'll surely be better informed, that's a fact. And I'm all for the health checks. I would have lost a piece of my soul had any of the puppies died. So thankful, so very thankful that all 9 survived and are thriving.


It is very good all of the puppies survived and seem healthy. That is the important thing! And once the puppies grow up more you'll get a better idea of what they'll turn out like. Lots of species can have multiple fathers is a litter, especially since sperm lives for days in the body. So she may have been bred before she started bleeding and the sperm lived long enough in her body to fertilize some eggs. Although 4 is a small litter from all the dogs I've seen in large breeds. Then again GSDs may be different from what I know but you could've easily ended up with twelve puppies just from one dad! My pup was from a litter of 12 actually.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

I see this beautiful black gsd now, Wally vom Haus Ellernbach Bicolor German Shepherd in TX

And it screams Duke to me! I'm so ecstatic it's late as can be and I was trying to wind down but woah!!! I know I've said it a few dozen times a couple different ways but!!! But if this dog is actually Bi-colored...then Duke could appear black but that red sheen...



Then sables aside, (in Maury voice) DUKE IS THE DADDY.

That's it I'm having his coat tested.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The two sable boys went to my bff 

oh oh . That's another can of worms topic.

the colour is a matter of curiosity. 

where did you get your dogs from . Surely you remember their kennel / breeders names.

papers burned in a house fire ? get duplicates .


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

This thread makes me so sad. 

So little regard for the health of the breed as a whole and the individual pups in this pairing. You are deep into BYB territory. 

2 of the pups have already been set up to fail in their new homes. Please pass this on to your bff - she needs to be prepared for potential littermate syndrome. 

Littermate Syndrome | Modern Dog magazine

Signs of Littermate Syndrome in Pets

https://blog.betternaturedogtraining.com/2013/07/18/littermate-syndrome/


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Brianna Zombri said:


> I see this beautiful black gsd now, Wally vom Haus Ellernbach Bicolor German Shepherd in TX
> 
> And it screams Duke to me! I'm so ecstatic it's late as can be and I was trying to wind down but woah!!! I know I've said it a few dozen times a couple different ways but!!! But if this dog is actually Bi-colored...then Duke could appear black but that red sheen...


The dog in the link has heavy penciling, but you can still clearly see tan on the feet. 

The red sheen you keep bringing up is fading on a black coat. The fading is caused by a multitude of environmental, dietary, health and genetic factors. It has nothing to do with the genetic color of the coat. 

Lots of sun exposure or swimming in chlorinated pools can cause bleaching of the coat and cause a black coat to gain reddish highlights. 

Black coats turning red is often a sign of a diet deficient in the amino acids phenylalanine and tyrosine. Tyrosine is necessary for the production of melanin which is what colors the coat black. Studies in labs and newfies have shown the level of these amino acids needed to maintain coat pigment is about twice what is needed for growth. The reddening pops up more frequently in puppies. You see a lot of reddening in the coats on dogs fed mid grade and lower kibble. Copper deficiencies are far less common than a tyrosine deficency but can also cause the reddening of the coat. 

Liver, thyroid, and GI issues can also cause the reddening of black fur. These are also related to tyrosine - but are indicative of an internal issue which is leading to the poor metabolism of the amino acid rather than insuficient dietary uptake.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Well my friend.. is keeping one and the other is going to her coast guard neighbor who is married to a firefighter. It's going to be the station dog. I'm sure you have something snide for that too. We live on a farm, no pools, dogs are sheltered Jesus Christ way to pick and choose what you get out of this. I feed them high protein, probably something on the internet that says something bad about that. As far as liver problems, I hope not! My rescue at almost 11 has cushings disease and diagnosed arthritis. as far as dukes papers my husband paid for a papered dog. the house burnt down shortly after Duke arrived. Thank god he wasn't hurt. Honestly when you lose your grandpas banjo and your year books and all your clothes and you've got a fireplace foundation do you really think a dogs paperwork was important? Maybe you would fret over that considering it was just YOUR HOME GONE POOF!
Seriously. I care about their health. I dewormed, gave puppy shots, keep our dogs utd. 
I don't know which breeder Duke came from and that sucks. I also have no way of contacting majors breeder and that's simply because I destroyed my phone dropping it and nothing saved when I put my chip in this one. 

You say penciling. Macy, Harley, Sadie and Olga all had penciling on their toes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Snide? I think people are just stating the facts.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The fire sounds horrific... I don't think anyone here would imply anything otherwise.

The physical sheets of paper are not what make a dog pedigreed/registered/"papered".

Think of it like the title for your car. If the paper title is lost or destroyed, you still have the car. The exact same car. You can acquire a new piece of paper for documentation, the car itself is not devalued in any way.

If the dog(s) was registered, you can do the exact same thing, if you choose.

Here is some info that may help. 

http://www.akc.org/press-center/press-releases/replacement-akc-paperwork-available/

https://images.akc.org/pdf/ADCERT.pdf


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

I believe this thread is about finished. I came asking about Coat colors and end up divulging just about everything about my entire life on here just to please you people while you try to push off your own personal agendas and morals. 

I mentioned about major being a patterned sable and supposedly if their hair is tri color then they are in fact a sable. He has a saddle, hence the pattern. There is a blanket sable same deal. No one has said elsewise except oh he looks BT well yes he does! 

I ask about which DNA tests would be best to best understand My dogs and their true colors, but no one has suggested which test, I know there are many. I've asked about vetgen or if anyone had another preference.. still nothing. The ship has sailed and they are on the ground running. You want to give me crap about sending two pups home- please, there is no way I would let two go under the same roof! Just like I wouldn't let just anyone take one. I have a shelter pet, my sweet tegan. Shelter, stray, papered or not I love all animals the same. 

I'm siting patiently waiting on my furminator to arrive! I'm going to see if there is really any other coloring on him.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Brianna Zombri said:


> Seriously. I care about their health. I dewormed, gave puppy shots, keep our dogs utd.


It's great that you are keeping them up to date with their health care... But there was not much forsight into the long term health of these puppies. That is what I meant by little regard for their health. Not that you are not doing your best to care for them now that they are on the ground!

Degenerative Myelopathy, Hip and Elbow Dysplasia, Megaesophagus, Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency, Von Willebrand's, Epilepsy, Gastric Dilation Volvulus, and Hemangiosarcoma are all incredibly _devastating_ health conditions that afflict the GSD as a breed. They rob thousands and thousands of GSDs of quality of life and years of lifespan. And breaking the hearts of their human care givers. 

There is a strong _genetic_ component to all of them. A breeder should take special care in avoiding breeding animals with these issues in their lines. Many of these diseases don't show up until later in life - so a perfectly healthy young breeding age dog may still pass on these issues. Or they may be carriers of the diseases. Some of them can be skipped for generations! The only way to avoid these issues are by putting in the hours upon hours of research into pedigrees, health testing and knowing exactly what is behind the dogs that are produced. How the individual genetics of each parent will combine.

Color genetics are really pretty straight forward. They're the easy ones. The genetics involved for body type, temperament and health issues are far more complex, and frankly far far more important. It does make me sad when a breeder comes to this board and have produced pups without ensuring they bred with the best genetic health in mind. I've seen too many dogs suffer from poor breeding. 

I gave examples of some of the multitude of reasons for a fading black coat to impart that the "red sheen" has nothing to do the the inheritance of the color genetics. It wasn't meant to be snide. It's just science.

Very glad that the two sable pups are not being raised together and that you won't be placing 2 pups with one family! Not everyone who places pups are as responsible as you are in that regards - and it's lead to some disasters.  

Everyone is here because of their love for this breed and dogs. 

Anywho... Good luck with the rest of the pups and your dogs. Hopefully one of the breeds here will pop back into this thread and advise on the testing.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

Woke up a little grouchy and posted before coffee, my apologies! 
Took little Macy out to potty and snapped a couple pics. We have tulips coming up-crazy!


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> It's great that you are keeping them up to date with their health care... But there was not much forsight into the long term health of these puppies. That is what I meant by little regard for their health. Not that you are not doing your best to care for them now that they are on the ground!
> 
> Degenerative Myelopathy, Hip and Elbow Dysplasia, Megaesophagus, Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency, Von Willebrand's, Epilepsy, Gastric Dilation Volvulus, and Hemangiosarcoma are all incredibly _devastating_ health conditions that afflict the GSD as a breed. They rob thousands and thousands of GSDs of quality of life and years of lifespan. And breaking the hearts of their human care givers.
> 
> ...




Thank you for giving me a lil credit. I tooootally understand thanks to your post. But may I add, no matter how perfect the breeder, no matter how perfect the dog, life ends and mutations occur. I see it's a reputable breeders job to minimize the possibility and that is that. I'm feeling good about signing up to be on here and chat with you guys about it all, in every aspect


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If your bitch is AKC, they will send you the papers, if they were lost in a fire. My friend had a litter 2 years ago. She did not register the litter. But now she wanted to register the male, so I was going to help her register the litter. She had sent in the sire's papers over two years ago, but couldn't find them. She called the AKC and then sent her copies of the sire's papers and she then registered the litter. No problem. 

Again, this is something that the 30-50$ you spend, one time, makes it really worthwhile. They keep a database of dogs, and if you've OFA'd them (checked hips and elbows, heart, thyroid, DM, vWd, etc. through the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, then they will hook that right to your dogs, and it comes out on the pedigree. 

When breeding, you can check those pedigrees, 3-4 generations back to see whether or not your dogs are related and how closely. Without a reputable source for a pedigree that just isn't possible. 

9 puppies is a tall order for friends and relatives, and maybe this isn't true for everyone, but sometimes, all those people that tell you how much they would love to have a puppy out of your dog or bitch, sometimes they head for the hills once those puppies are on the ground. Furthermore, while we might love the idea of our family owning our puppy, we can watch it grow up, etc, etc., sometimes it isn't so good in the long run. 

Sometimes friends and family are good choices, and sometimes they can surprise you. Sometimes when people fork out a chunk of change for a dog, they are more likely to think before dumping the dog at a shelter, giving it to a friend. Sometimes they are more likely to send the dog back you you.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Can I just pick choice number 2 ??? Just to be different......

SuperG


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Brianna Zombri said:


> Thank you for giving me a lil credit. I tooootally understand thanks to your post. But may I add, no matter how perfect the breeder, no matter how perfect the dog, life ends and mutations occur. I see it's a reputable breeders job to minimize the possibility and that is that. I'm feeling good about signing up to be on here and chat with you guys about it all, in every aspect


I hope you realize any criticisms in posts are intended to be teaching moments, not attacks. This thread isn't just about you even though you started it. These threads come up later in searches, so the next person thinking about breeding their pets can learn from it too. We tend to look down on BYBs because often dogs from those litters can have health problems and are more likely to end up in shelters or rescues. There is such a thing as a small hobby breeder, but they do different things in making breeding choices. There are also puppy mills, which as someone pointed out to me, are the worst. I am hoping that your dogs all go to good homes, are raised and treated well and have no extreme or serious genetic health problems. Good luck.

It would be kind to those taking your dogs if the parents of your dogs have been registered with AKC to go ahead and register your litter.


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## Brianna Zombri (Feb 25, 2017)

selzer said:


> If your bitch is AKC, they will send you the papers, if they were lost in a fire. My friend had a litter 2 years ago. She did not register the litter. But now she wanted to register the male, so I was going to help her register the litter. She had sent in the sire's papers over two years ago, but couldn't find them. She called the AKC and then sent her copies of the sire's papers and she then registered the litter. No problem.
> 
> Again, this is something that the 30-50$ you spend, one time, makes it really worthwhile. They keep a database of dogs, and if you've OFA'd them (checked hips and elbows, heart, thyroid, DM, vWd, etc. through the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, then they will hook that right to your dogs, and it comes out on the pedigree.
> 
> ...


I was curious about how to do that. It's been over 4 years and thinking about it now we're settled it something I do in fact want to do! I'm sure they can help me figure it out over the phone. 9 was a big litter. Its a pleasure knowing they are in good homes and I was pretty demanding with my friends and family as far as what their plans were. Even the 3 that went to random people I held interviews with and will keep in touch. I didn't give any away because I agree and believe people won't dump a dog as quickly if they pay and do so because they really want one. Like I said I'm fulfilled with the experience and lucky everything was smooth as it was. I've got plenty of time on my hands to call and do some digging to find the information to get dukes papers


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yep, just call the AKC. Tell them that you had a house fire, and you would like to get a copy of your dog's registration. I think all you need is your name and address, maybe the address the dog was originally registered under. Shouldn't be a problem. 

I have dogs that are between 0 and 11 years old, if I had a fire, then I would lose the paperwork for dogs that were registered a decade or more ago, but the information still exists at the AKC, and I am sure for a small fee, I could have copies sent. 

I am sure you can find the contact information -- phone numbers you need on www.akc.org.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

I don't have a clue about colour genetics but the black pup with the white chest reminds me of my late girl. Her mum was black and tan, dad was a solid black. (There was a blue gene in there somewhere but I can't remember which side) However all my pups siblings were black and tan or solid black. There were no sables.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Misha111 said:


> I don't have a clue about colour genetics but the black pup with the white chest reminds me of my late girl. Her mum was black and tan, dad was a solid black. (There was a blue gene in there somewhere but I can't remember which side) However all my pups siblings were black and tan or solid black. There were no sables.


To produce black, both sire and dam must have a black gene. Each has two, so the mum was b/t and black and passed on the black. The sire was black -- both of his were black because black is recessive to all others. 

Blue is a dilution. It is genetic, but it is not one of the genes that determine color. Kind of like the white masking gene. And another gene that produces white markings. A gene determines how red the tan will be, that might be the same as the dilute, not sure, have to go look that up again. 

Anyhow, a blue is actually a black or black and tan that is diluted.


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