# Huge Problem someone please help me.. don't know who else to talk to about my dog.



## gsdreeflove (Aug 22, 2016)

I was trying to post on other forums but the website wouldn't let me until I clicked on this one. Hopefully someone out there who reads this can help.. I am desperate. Let me start from the beginning: So i purchased a german shepherd puppy from these local breeders (I will not mention any names even though I am extremely angry with them) and from the beginning we requested full breeding rights in case we ever wanted the option of providing stud services or anything like that. Either way regardless of that, the breeding thing wasn't important to us at all, however the pup having testis was extremely important to us because we don't believe in neutering a male dog. We have always had the idea of keeping the male with everything the way it should be naturally. When the pup was 5 months old we noticed that his testis hadn't dropped yet. We didn't panic even though everyone told us to, even the vets. But we figured he would just be a late bloomer. I contacted the breeder right away and she told me to not freak out until the pup was at least 8 months old. Now he is 7 and a half months old. Will be 8 months on the 5th. And still no testis. Again, I contacted my breeder right away and all she could say is "oh im so sorry sometimes things like this happen and there is nothing we could to. it's natural" Her offer is to give back the $350 extra we paid for the full breeding rights, OR trade the puppy for a brand new one. I'm sorry but there is no way in **** that i will trade my dog, testis or no testis. That is inhumane! I fell in love with this dog he has the most amazing temperament and now im just supposed to replace him? that shouldn't even be included as an option in the contract unless a breeder is buying from them. In total I paid 1,700 for the dog. minus the 350 for the full breeding rights is 1,350. I am having such a hard time believing that a dog with a genetic flaw is worth that much money. So i asked for 700 instead of the 350 and she refused. She said it clearly states in the contract that there are no refunds. The only reason she is giving me back the 350 is out of good faith.. I understand that contracts are a big deal.. But is it just me or is this just plain ridiculous?? I have no idea how to handle this situation. I will not get rid of my dog regardless but I feel like I deserve to get more money than just 350. I feel like this is a slap in the face. Please advise, anyone..


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There are some good breeders on here who I am sure will chime in. Did your puppy contract state any guarantee of hip scores or both testicles descending?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Her offer is to give back the $350 extra we paid for the full breeding rights, OR trade the puppy for a brand new one.


Sorry but you bought a living, breathing, creature with risks. 

Your Breeder tried to make it right by offering a replacement puppy, which is standard practice, or money back on the extra cost for full registration and apparently that isn't good enough for you because you want more? Because the puppy that you can't bear to part with is worth $350 less in your eyes?

IMO, you are the one out of line. Not the breeder.


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## gsdreeflove (Aug 22, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Sorry but you bought a living, breathing, creature with risks.
> 
> Your Breeder tried to make it right by offering a replacement puppy, which is standard practice, or money back on the extra cost for full registration and apparently that isn't good enough for you because you want more? Because the puppy that you can't bear to part with is worth $350 less in your eyes?
> 
> IMO, you are the one out of line. Not the breeder.


You sound just like her i'm guessing you're a breeder too. What you don't understand is that I am not out of line. He was overpriced to begin with and now all she is giving back is the full breeding rights money because he cant breed anymore? Doesn't justify the fact that my dog could have health issues later on because of this.


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## Wags (Dec 17, 2015)

Once Salzar posted on here, with an explanation for the "replacement puppy" cause a lot of breeder's have. It's because a good breeder doesn't make a ton of money off the dogs. They pay for food, health tests, vet visits, shots, everything, of multiple dogs, and then the puppies, they pay for toys and padding and beds and nests and everything, and most have kennels of some sort for the dogs to stay in outside. All of that costs add up, and they invest the money from one litter to another litter, so it isn't as if they have a lot of extra money laying around, unless they also work a full time well paying job, but being a dog breeding alone is usually a full time job. So it is easier for them to give a replacement puppy, which they can simply put your name on a reservation spot and act as if that puppy didn't ever exist (not counting on the money from that puppy) rather than refund you money they may have already invested in another litter.

I think your breeder is being reasonable offering you the $350 dollars back for full breeding rights or a replacement puppy. That's pretty standard. Especially if the contract you signed said no refund. You signed it, you knew the terms when you signed it, so it is reasonable for them to assume you understood the terms and conditions of your contract. Therefore, the $350 is in good faith, since full rights do you no good without decended testis. I would take the $350, and leave happy.


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## gsdreeflove (Aug 22, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Sorry but you bought a living, breathing, creature with risks.
> 
> Your Breeder tried to make it right by offering a replacement puppy, which is standard practice, or money back on the extra cost for full registration and apparently that isn't good enough for you because you want more? Because the puppy that you can't bear to part with is worth $350 less in your eyes?
> 
> IMO, you are the one out of line. Not the breeder.


It's responses like this that make me think breeders do this kind of thing on purpose in order to stop someone else from breeding or having a dog with balls lol.


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## gsdreeflove (Aug 22, 2016)

Wags said:


> Once Salzar posted on here, with an explanation for the "replacement puppy" cause a lot of breeder's have. It's because a good breeder doesn't make a ton of money off the dogs. They pay for food, health tests, vet visits, shots, everything, of multiple dogs, and then the puppies, they pay for toys and padding and beds and nests and everything, and most have kennels of some sort for the dogs to stay in outside. All of that costs add up, and they invest the money from one litter to another litter, so it isn't as if they have a lot of extra money laying around, unless they also work a full time well paying job, but being a dog breeding alone is usually a full time job. So it is easier for them to give a replacement puppy, which they can simply put your name on a reservation spot and act as if that puppy didn't ever exist (not counting on the money from that puppy) rather than refund you money they may have already invested in another litter.
> 
> I think your breeder is being reasonable offering you the $350 dollars back for full breeding rights or a replacement puppy. That's pretty standard. Especially if the contract you signed said no refund. You signed it, you knew the terms when you signed it, so it is reasonable for them to assume you understood the terms and conditions of your contract. Therefore, the $350 is in good faith, since full rights do you no good without decended testis. I would take the $350, and leave happy.


Ok I definitely respect this response a lot more. Thank you. I will follow your advice. This is going to be a more emotional topic for me than anyone else because I've already had other problems with this breeder so maybe that's why I am overreacting. Thanks again


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## ctidmore (Feb 6, 2013)

As a breeder, I think this breeder as done the right thing. They gave you 2 options, some people if the puppy is young enough and they are really thinking of breeding down the road, they would want a replacement. Others like you could not even think of doing that, which is fine and understandable. They are giving you the refund back to pet quality and not breeding. NO breeder can guarantee genetics, and things do happen. I wish you the best.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

"however the pup having testis was extremely important to us because we don't believe in neutering a male dog. We have always had the idea of keeping the male with everything the way it should be naturally. "

And that's fine. But Nature decided not to descend your dog's testes. Your breeder sounds like they are working with you in a reasonable way and you DID sign a contract beforehand so I'm not sure what you want.

Is the dog healthy otherwise? Because you said "he breeding thing wasn't important to us at all" and if his biggest "flaw" is not being able to sire puppies then I think you should take the 350 and move on. Plenty of folks pay more than 1350 just to get a healthy, well tempered gsd pup.


Edit: I just saw the OP response to Jax....Is this going to be one of those threads where nothing productive happens because the OP expected an echo chamber and not honest repsonses?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The breeder is not out of line. The contract requesting the puppy back for a refund is pretty standard. You chose to get this pup from this breeder and agreed to the contract.

Focus on the fact that you have a great pup that means the world to you. Be grateful to the breeder for going above and beyong the contract requirements by offering to refund the cost of the full registration, and accept the fact that no puppy can be guaranteed to be perfect, and that is a risk we accept when we do get a pup.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

gsdreeflove said:


> You sound just like her i'm guessing you're a breeder too. What you don't understand is that I am not out of line. He was overpriced to begin with and now all she is giving back is the full breeding rights money because he cant breed anymore? Doesn't justify the fact that my dog could have health issues later on because of this.


I'm not a breeder. No desire to be. Your dog was not overpriced. I paid more for my dog than you did. I don't expect a contract or a refund. 

You are out of line. I understand that perfectly. And the more you say, the more out of line I think you are.

You paid for the "overpriced to begin with" puppy. Can't cry foul now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dotbat215 said:


> Edit: I just saw the OP response to Jax....Is this going to be one of those threads where nothing productive happens because the OP expected an echo chamber and not honest repsonses?



yessssssss.....


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

gsdreeflove said:


> You sound just like her i'm guessing you're a breeder too. What you don't understand is that I am not out of line. He was overpriced to begin with and now all she is giving back is the full breeding rights money because he cant breed anymore? Doesn't justify the fact that my dog could have health issues later on because of this.


Why would you purchase a pup that in your mind was over priced to begin with? 

The breeder's offer for partial refund to cover the higher cost for full registration/breeding rights or giving you a replacement pup is more than fair - especially considering that the contract, which you signed and agreed to the terms of, stated no refunds.

Health issues can pop up no matter how well bred a line is. They are living animals after all.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Two out of the three male GSDs I've had have been cryptorchid, meaning that only one testicle descended. My current puppy is only 4 months old, but I'm not expecting it to drop. In both cases, I knew about it before I brought the puppy home. It seems to be a fairly common condition in GSDs (based on personal experience only). It doesn't matter to me since the puppy isn't bothered by it and I don't have plans to show or breed. I'll have the pup neutered around 1.5 to 2 years old to protect against cancer and other issues, unless there are complications sooner. Our vet seemed to think that would be fine. I'll be pleased if this ends up being our boy's only genetic health issue. I would have chosen not to neuter as well... we have left our other male intact. However, if it's for health reasons, I don't care at all. The only bummer is that the procedure is more complicated. 

Unless your contract offers a rebate, I think your breeder is making things right by refunding the $350. I'd imagine that money should be enough to cover his more-complicated neutering, which is nice. If your breeder is knowledgeable, your pup still has all of the good things in his background to make him worth what you paid ( sire and dam with hip/DM health testing, titles, stable temperaments, ect). With that said, I probably would not have sold a cryptochid pup with full breeding rights. In my experience, retained testicles just don't drop that often...could just be my dogs though. I am NOT a breeder.

If this issue is very important to you, my advice for the future would be, make sure before you bring the puppy home it has both testicles. Then you won't have to worry.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Mine is a cryptorchid too. I am pretty disappointed about it because I bought him with an agreement for the breeder to use him in her program if he passed all his clearances and was suitable. One day I would have gotten a puppy back out of him. I thought it was the perfect win win because my old gal is retiring and it pains me I can't get a pup from her or her lines (breeder is done), she is exceptional. I thought, if he is exceptional too I would LOVE to keep a pup from him before he is done. But I don't want to be a breeder. So his breeder using him was the perfect thing! I might get a puppy one day but I don't have to learn to be a responsible breeder, I just have to bring the boy on a date. But alas, only one ever dropped. Big disappointment but what are you going to do, nobody has any control over that.

My kid is the product of an AI breeding with one of her deceased males who was pretty hot stuff, 25 titles or so of all kinds...so...big bummer.

So I feel ya, but unless your contract specifically stated such and such would happen (refund or replacement) if testicles didn't drop then your breeder is being kind by giving you any money back at all...


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

It's difficult sometimes to take a step back, particularly if you were set on breeding this pup, and now you can't. Others have offered opinions about the contract and what the breeder is obligated to do (or not do). I'll just say you mentioned you are happy with your pup otherwise, and but for the fact that his testicles didn't drop he is fine and healthy. I just read a post by someone who had to put their puppy down because of grand mal seizures, a puppy about the same age as yours. I bet they wouldn't quibble over $350 if they could have a happy healthy puppy back.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just enjoy your pup and thank your breeder for the $350 refund. I have a male Collie that I bought with breeding rights. Well, he has some growth issues that may or may not be genetic so I am not taking the risk and will not breed him. Yes, it is a bummer. I am not even going after a refund as I want to preserve the good relationship with his breeder. She provided me with an awesome dog, has done all the health testing possible and yes, like others said, he is a living, developing animal. Anything can happen. So I am enjoying him just as much and so should you with or without testicles hanging on the outside. Just do some research to make sure you are making the right decision on neutering or not. From what I know is that neutering is not of any urgency for the first few years.
Stay on the forum and you will find good resources for many issues and for plain fun and support. Most of us are direct but honest with the best intentions at heart. Now, go play with your puppy!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have had 2 vets tell me now that waiting until 24 months to go dig out the lost nut is fine, so I assume it woukd be fine to leave OPs dog like that until 2 yr, unless there were signs of discomfort or grumpiness which I guess is possible.

I want to combine it with OFA x rays while he is under anssthesia.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Were you aware your puppy was a cryptorchid upon purchase? If so then the breeder is not to blame unless they hid that from you until after the purchase was made. I decided not to purchase a male puppy that had an undescended testicle. I did my research and did not want the added risk and cost of what could be a very invasive surgery to have it removed if it did not descend. Nor did I want to pay the same price as other buyers who were purchasing males with both testicles already descended. This came on top of some other actions that made me question how responsible their were about their breeding practices. I know some breeders will reduce the price of a puppy who is a cryptorchid, but not all will. You experience highlights the need for people to do their research when choosing a breeder. Contracts are mealiness in most if not all cases and can't always be used to weed out the responsible breeders from those just in it for the money. I'm sure the next time your purchase a puppy you will make sure he is packing a full set


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## brookwoodgirl (May 5, 2016)

Can I play devils' advocate - not the that OP is a devil, BTW, but to a certain extent, I see his point. He paid X dollars for a dog, and $350 extra for breeding rights. Getting the $350 back is appropriate - the dog can't be bred. But it also was defective as opposed to a pet quality puppy who had both testicles descend, i.e., compared to a normal, healthy male puppy. A dog with this problem is less than a pet quality dog. It's a dog with an additional defect. Had he been with the breeder after the defect was known, he would or should have been sold at a lesser price than a pet quality dog with no health issues - at least some breeders would have "discounted" a dog with such an issue, compared to the price of an intact pet quality pup. Not meaning to argue with those that insist that the breeder owes the purchaser nothing - she has her contract and can stand on it. But I can also see the puppy owner's point. It's something to consider re perhaps reading that contract and perhaps altering it before signing it or walking away, if you don't like the terms. It's always hard for an owner to return a pup with a defect, even when the contract specifies it in the case of defects like HD, ED, or as in this case, an undescended testicle. And considering that the breeder would have to board and sell the dog, presumably not for the original price, it would be better for the pup and the owner, and perhaps even the breeder, to give some discount on the defective pup against the price of a pup from her that can be bred. She'd hardly lose anything much on the transaction. I doubt she'd sell the dog for more than what the owner would end up paying as the "discount", and she'd have a happy pup and a happier owner, be free from having to board and sell it, and have an owner who would be praising rather than dissatisfied with her as a breeder. JMHO.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Its really hard not to say something antagonistic. But if you sign a contract, why would you expect more? Undescended testicles really are out of a breeder or owners control. And that is a risk you take when you purchase a puppy. 
I don't understand the need to tell the price of a dog. Is it a pissing match? 
Regardless. Seems your contract was honored. 
But you might not agree.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm a breeder and you are out of line. 

Your dog has a problem, his testicles did not descend, and now you can certainly wait until he is mature, full grown, but then you should neuter. I would go ahead and do it between 24 and 36 months. 

I would NOT listen to a vet and do it sooner. Your dog's testicles, may or may not exist. They could be up there and just not descended. They could have never developed in the first place. Neutering at maturity, will mean that if they exist, then your dog has the hormones for growth, and staying intact until full grown will decrease his risk of certain cancers. 

Testicular cancer is the only reason to neuter at all. It is a risk pretty much because if your dog is the 1% or less that gets this, you will not know because the testicles are internal, and the tumor isn't apparent. But it generally happens later in life, so leaving your boy intact longer will allow him to fill out with the benefit of the hormones. 

I am sorry that your breeder was not upfront with you. The ONLY thing she can guaranty you is that your dog is an animal, which lives and breathes and moves. Unless you lose him in an accident, or you put him down for other reasons, your dog WILL become ill with one or more serious conditions and eventually succumb to the powers that be, and will die. When that happens, later is better, but no breeder can give any surety. They may be able to tell you how long-lived their dogs are, and should be able to tell you the average longevity of the breed.

If there is a breeder anywhere that could guaranty that a dog would live 14 years and die peacefully in its sleep, the breeder could demand 10 times or more the price you paid. 

You are in love with the dog and he has an amazing temperament. You never wanted to breed him so there is no loss in that area. Thank your lucky stars that you have a great dog with an amazing temperament that you want to keep. Your breeder offered $350 back since they charge a different amount for pet-quality and show/breeding quality -- accept the offer as it is quite generous and she is not legally bound to do it. 

And when you look at your dog, try not to feel guilty for thinking him worth less because of something he can't help, and for haggling over a few dollars, because he isn't up to your standard of perfectness. He isn't perfect. There is not a dog anywhere that is. You love the dog, he is definitely worth what you paid for him. 

Think about it this way. If I offered you $1800 for the dog, would you sell him? 

If you would, then maybe you think more about his balls, and really don't care that much about him without them. But most of the people that I have talked to that have had a puppy for 4-5 months, say, pick a number, any number, I wouldn't sell this dog for a million dollars. You get a dog that is for 1700 or 1800 dollars that you wouldn't sell for a million, who has the bargain? Really? So the guy down the road got his for $500 and he wouldn't sell it for a million and suddenly you feel cheated. Ah, the human condition!!! Your dogs testicles did not descend, an ear doesn't stand up, the dog is black and tan instead of black and red, has a blanket instead of a saddle, is light sable instead of dark sable. And suddenly we should go back to the breeder and ask for money back because while we love the dog, and wouldn't trade him for the world, his coat isn't dark enough, the ear isn't up, the testicles aren't down, and it's all the breeder's fault!!! Dog isn't good enough. The dog is worth an infinite number less $700. Whatever.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't see what the huge problem is - things happen in nature. My female GSD recently developed urinary incontinence, she is only 6 yrs old. What should I do, contact the breeder and claim he sold me a rotten dog, or sue the vet who did the spay? That would be ridiculous. Paying $1350 for a pure bred GSD is actually a better price than most. You said breeding was not that important to you, I don't understand the problem.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

I understand your grief and disappointment, my dog Nitro was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia and had expensive surgery, then the rehabilitation, at 9 months. Both parents hips and elbows had excellent scores. Our attitude was, we lost the genetic lottery, but we still have an awesome dog. Nitro's breeder was devastated, and offered to take him back. We became great friends over the elbow thing. You paid a reasonable price for your dog, life's a lottery, enjoy your dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

brookwoodgirl said:


> Can I play devils' advocate - not the that OP is a devil, BTW, but to a certain extent, I see his point. He paid X dollars for a dog, and $350 extra for breeding rights. Getting the $350 back is appropriate - the dog can't be bred. But it also was defective as opposed to a pet quality puppy who had both testicles descend, i.e., compared to a normal, healthy male puppy. A dog with this problem is less than a pet quality dog. It's a dog with an additional defect. Had he been with the breeder after the defect was known, he would or should have been sold at a lesser price than a pet quality dog with no health issues - at least some breeders would have "discounted" a dog with such an issue, compared to the price of an intact pet quality pup. Not meaning to argue with those that insist that the breeder owes the purchaser nothing - she has her contract and can stand on it. But I can also see the puppy owner's point. It's something to consider re perhaps reading that contract and perhaps altering it before signing it or walking away, if you don't like the terms. It's always hard for an owner to return a pup with a defect, even when the contract specifies it in the case of defects like HD, ED, or as in this case, an undescended testicle. And considering that the breeder would have to board and sell the dog, presumably not for the original price, it would be better for the pup and the owner, and perhaps even the breeder, to give some discount on the defective pup against the price of a pup from her that can be bred. She'd hardly lose anything much on the transaction. I doubt she'd sell the dog for more than what the owner would end up paying as the "discount", and she'd have a happy pup and a happier owner, be free from having to board and sell it, and have an owner who would be praising rather than dissatisfied with her as a breeder. JMHO.


No, he is not less than a pet-quality dog. Pet quality is all the dogs that are not show/breeding quality. If they have something that effects their quality of life, breeders should reduce the price, find a good home for the dog with no price, or euthanize. Having an undescended testicle or both, isn't something that would knock a dog out of pet quality, as many breeders require spay/neuter on pet quality. 

All pups are defective. Every single one of them. Dallas was defective. He only lived to be 9 years old. His owners should have gone back to the breeders and said, average is 10-12 years -- you should dog give us back 1/10th of the purchase price as he only lived 9/10ths of an average lifespan -- that would be crazy! Wouldn't it? 

We go and buy a pup. What is important we talk to the breeder about. So if my dog has MegaE what happens? And the breeder tells you, if your pup has that condition, even though I have never had a dog with that condition, it is such a terrible condition, that I will refund your purchase price. You ask because you have had a dog with the condition. And you sign a contract including that in your contract. I haven't had this situation, but one fellow was so concerned about ears, that I made a statement in the contract warrantying the ears. It mattered to him. I could guaranty them. But if they did not go up, I would have....

According to the OP, they were always concerned about the testicles, but did not make any requirement about them in the contract. Ok, then. This is just what it is. Whenever we sell a pup, pet quality/show quality, the pup is only 8 weeks old. Show people buy a pup at 8 weeks as show quality because the dog doesn't at that time have any disqualifying faults. When the dog is 6 months or a year or two years, maybe his tail is too short, his ear did not stand, his croup is too long or too short, and he simply is not going to win in the ring. They do not go back and demand a refund. 

Pet quality is just that. A dog sold s a pet. It is not a guaranty that this pet will be perfect for 15 years. Doesn't work that way. The dog may have a disqualifying fault, like an undescended testicle, a white coat, a blue coat, or weak temperament. And it just may not be a stand-out. 

This dog does not have ANY condition that is not suited to be a pet. Sorry, but asking for more than $350 is out of line.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" from the beginning we requested full breeding rights in case we ever wanted the option of providing stud services or anything like that"

You should have checked , or had a vet check to make sure that both testicles were descended at time of purchase.
That is what a person intending to breed would have done .

There are so many other hurdles to jump before a dog can be considered breed worthy , which you dog may not have met.
That is what a responsible breeder understands . Being biologically able doesn't mean they should be bred.

You knew what the terms were .


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## brookwoodgirl (May 5, 2016)

cryptorchidism is not an illness. It's not like uterine incontinence in a female, which could be the result of a bad spay or a simple lack of muscle tone due to lack of exercise and weight gain as a bitch ages, or a simple infection. Rather, cryptorchidism a genetic fault, considered a hereditary recessive gene, carried by sire and dam. 

I don't really understand the attitude that this is just something that can happen to a dog in the hands of the owner, like an illness or bad training. Nor is it merely a cosmetic issue, like an ear or a coat, but a health concern. It requires a more invasive operation than a normal neuter to correct. To compare it to a bad ear, bad coat, or a future illness is disingenuous to me. 

I agree the breeder can stand on her contract, but I think the owner also has his point. Yes, if my female develops UI, that's my lookout, not the breeders. OTOH, if my dog develops DM (as one of my dogs did, before there was the ability to screen for it, when researchers were looking to see if there was a genetic component) that's a genetic defect and the breeder now should regard it as a defect in her breeding. A dog with a genetic defect is not the same as a normally intact pet puppy. There's nothing the owner can do about this post contract except find another breeder, and take precautions both in terms of screening his puppy and any future contracts he signs. But I still think the breeder should have offered the owner something more here.


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## Della Luna (Jul 14, 2015)

Dunkirk said:


> We became great friends over the elbow thing.


This made me giggle for some reason. The things that bring people together!


OP, I would personally just take that $350 and put it towards the neuter.


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## brookwoodgirl (May 5, 2016)

selzer said:


> No, he is not less than a pet-quality dog. Pet quality is all the dogs that are not show/breeding quality. If they have something that effects their quality of life, breeders should reduce the price, find a good home for the dog with no price, or euthanize. Having an undescended testicle or both, isn't something that would knock a dog out of pet quality, as many breeders require spay/neuter on pet quality.
> 
> All pups are defective. Every single one of them. Dallas was defective. He only lived to be 9 years old. His owners should have gone back to the breeders and said, average is 10-12 years -- you should dog give us back 1/10th of the purchase price as he only lived 9/10ths of an average lifespan -- that would be crazy! Wouldn't it?
> 
> ...


If your dog only lives to 9 years, it could be the result of many environmental issues that the owner controls. I certainly never said a pet quality dog is guaranteed to be perfect for 15 years. To make these sweeping straw arguments is again, disingenuous and not the actual point. The reason cryptochids shouldn't be bred is because it is a genetic fault. There's a difference in a pet quality dog, who isn't an excellent example of the breed standard, and a dog with a genetic fault.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

brookwoodgirl said:


> cryptorchidism is not an illness. It's not like uterine incontinence in a female, which could be the result of a bad spay or a simple lack of muscle tone due to lack of exercise and weight gain as a bitch ages, or a simple infection. Rather, cryptorchidism a genetic fault, considered a hereditary recessive gene, carried by sire and dam.
> 
> I don't really understand the attitude that this is just something that can happen to a dog in the hands of the owner, like an illness or bad training. Nor is it merely a cosmetic issue, like an ear or a coat, but a health concern. It requires a more invasive operation than a normal neuter to correct. To compare it to a bad ear, bad coat, or a future illness is disingenuous to me.
> 
> I agree the breeder can stand on her contract, but I think the owner also has his point. Yes, if my female develops UI, that's my lookout, not the breeders. OTOH, if my dog develops DM (as one of my dogs did, before there was the ability to screen for it, when researchers were looking to see if there was a genetic component) that's a genetic defect and the breeder now should regard it as a defect in her breeding. A dog with a genetic defect is not the same as a normally intact pet puppy. There's nothing the owner can do about this post contract except find another breeder, and take precautions both in terms of screening his puppy and any future contracts he signs. But I still think the breeder should have offered the owner something more here.



However, it is something that the breeder has no control over. Yes, in most cases it is inherited but it can also be a luck of the draw thing. Sometimes the cord is long enough that the testicle SHOULD have came down but it got knotted on itself and didn't. Sometimes, for whatever reason, the testicle just didn't come down. Sometimes it happens even if both dogs have been bred to each other before and have NEVER had a crypt puppy. Sometimes it is something that neither parent has ever produced when bred with other dogs but this combo did. 

The $350 refund more than covers the extra expense of the neuter. A puppy can have both testes down at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and then one day you check and "what the heck? where did it go??" This is something that the breeder has absolutely no control over, in the end. 
Living animals are a genetic lottery. All you can do is stack the odds in your favor and hope for the best.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

brookwoodgirl said:


> If your dog only lives to 9 years, it could be the result of many environmental issues that the owner controls. I certainly never said a pet quality dog is guaranteed to be perfect for 15 years. To make these sweeping straw arguments is again, disingenuous and not the actual point. The reason cryptochids shouldn't be bred is because it is a genetic fault. There's a difference in a pet quality dog, who isn't an excellent example of the breed standard, and a dog with a genetic fault.


This is interesting, and I'll throw in a comment, forgive me if I am oversimplifying, but I thought the only people who really cared about descended testicles were those who wanted to show their dogs. It's a fault, both testicles need to be there. So I'll add another comment, a dog with a retained testicle can still breed, and might still produce puppies without having cryptorchidism. But yet they shouldn't be bred. That doesn't seem right to me if it's purely driven by some standard we follow whether or not we actually show our dogs.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

LittleBear said:


> This is interesting, and I'll throw in a comment, forgive me if I am oversimplifying, but I thought the only people who really cared about descended testicles were those who wanted to show their dogs. It's a fault, both testicles need to be there. So I'll add another comment, a dog with a retained testicle can still breed, and might still produce puppies without having cryptorchidism. But yet they shouldn't be bred. That doesn't seem right to me if it's purely driven by some standard we follow whether or not we actually show our dogs.


The point of showing is to find the best dogs to breed. A dog with a retained testicle is at higher risk of developing testicular cancer. And, since it is most often genetic, why would you take the risk of passing that onto puppies? It's not an arbitrary standard.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> The point of showing is to find the best dogs to breed. A dog with a retained testicle is at higher risk of developing testicular cancer. And, since it is most often genetic, why would you take the risk of passing that onto puppies? It's not an arbitrary standard.


Yes, thanks for the clarification, I absolutely agree, but thinking that through, as a person who owns a pet only, and possibly is required by contract to neuter anyway, why would I care if the dog was cryptorchid? I guess I would be fussed by a lot of other potential genetic issues, this one for me at least is low on the list.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

LittleBear said:


> Yes, thanks for the clarification, I absolutely agree, but thinking that through, as a person who owns a pet only, and possibly is required by contract to neuter anyway, why would I care if the dog was cryptorchid? I guess I would be fussed by a lot of other potential genetic issues, this one for me at least is low on the list.


The neuter procedure for a crypt is generally more extensive. In some cases, you are lucky and the testicle is easily found with only a slightly larger incision than usual. With others, it can take a lot of hunting to find it. As such, it's a more expensive procedure. In some cases it's a more dangerous procedure.

ETA: there is also the fact that in rare instances they aren't able to find the other testicle.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> The neuter procedure for a crypt is generally more extensive. In some cases, you are lucky and the testicle is easily found with only a slightly larger incision than usual. With others, it can take a lot of hunting to find it. As such, it's a more expensive procedure. In some cases it's a more dangerous procedure.
> 
> ETA: there is also the fact that in rare instances they aren't able to find the other testicle.


Of course, I completely understand, Phoenix was a cryptorchid, we thought the retained testicle was inguinal, but it turned out to be abdominal. We were still super lucky, the surgery went fine, although he had a huge abdominal scar and a seriously bad shave job in the area lol. Good thing the fur will grow back! Sounds like there are potentially more issues involved, we thankfully experienced very few.

Sounds like I was oversimplifying after all :blush:


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I'm sorry, but I'm late to this thread. Shouldn't the breeder have checked to see if the dog's testicles had dropped at 6, 7 or 8 weeks? I'm thinking an experienced breeder wold pick up on a male with 2 undescended testicles? I understand they go up and down, but a good breeder will know. IMHO, a good and experienced breeder wouldn't charge extra for a dog with 2 testicles that haven't dropped, or even one. Not noticing any testicles strikes me as a little odd? Then selling for extra money as a potential breeding dog raises all sorts of red flags with me. 

My advice, take the $350 and cut your losses, I wouldn't want another dog from this breeder either.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm late to this thread. Shouldn't the breeder have checked to see if the dog's testicles had dropped at 6, 7 or 8 weeks? I'm thinking an experienced breeder wold pick up on a male with 2 undescended testicles? I understand they go up and down, but a good breeder will know. IMHO, a good and experienced breeder wouldn't charge extra for a dog with 2 testicles that haven't dropped, or even one. Not noticing any testicles strikes me as a little odd? Then selling for extra money as a potential breeding dog raises all sorts of red flags with me.
> 
> My advice, take the $350 and cut your losses, I wouldn't want another dog from this breeder either.


The problem is that, just because they are down at 8 weeks doesn't mean that they will be down when the dog is older. Also, many breeders will only check gently for testicles since feeling around with too much pressure can push them out of position. 
You can literally have 2 testicles on Monday, only a left on Tuesday and then on Wed on the right one.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are a lot of worse things out there. MegE, EPI, ED, DM, Epilepsy, Wobblers, bloat, spondylosis, HD, liver shunts, pyometra, and on and on and on. 

No dog is perfect, and yes, sometimes we pick and choose. Lots of breeders put ears up. Weak ears are genetic. If the ears are trained up, and helped to stand, then those breeders pass on weak ears and do not feel even a little bit guilty about it. Because they feel that if by gluing/putting a form in the ear and a gluing or taping, they can get that ear to stand without help down the line, then the ears are fine. They deceive themselves, but it is an aesthetic quality. Dogs can live a fine life with a dropped ear. The question is, sometimes, whether the owners are disappointed in the dog. 

The testicle will require a spay surgery, rather than a neuter. The $350 is compensation for that -- the difference between show quality and pet quality -- the owner is getting a deal. I have sold puppies that had only one apparent at 8 weeks, and I have discussed that if it doesn't come down it will be the cost of a spay over the cost of a neuter, no need to neuter quickly, etc. At the time of purchase the owner is either ok with that or not, if not, they can choose a different puppy or a different breeder. The value of the puppy is the same -- pet quality. 

There is no saying what a puppy's veterinary requirements will be in the course of 10-14 years. Sometimes you have a puppy that has demodex, and allergies, and epilepsy, and hip/back issues, and dies of cancer at age 7. And maybe others in the same litter are still going strong at 11, and rarely need a vet for anything. Sometimes it is the luck of the draw. When I purchase a puppy, I know it is a crap-shoot. It is more, what challenges is this puppy going to provide me, rather than believing that this will be it, the perfect dog, womb to tomb. I don't expect the breeder to answer every challenge, probably because I understand a bit about biology and genetics and life in general.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The breeder didn't notice? 

I am assuming for $1,700.00 that this puppy was vet checked and came with a health certificate and the breeder's vet did not notice?

OP, while hugging, cuddling and rolling the puppy over did not notice?

When OP took their puppy to the vet most likely multiple times for its series of shots, or at least once if the puppy were older for a vet check, and OP's vet did not notice?

Up, down, and all around, that is a lot of people who took their eye off of the ball, pardon the pun.

There are too many people involved from both sides for somebody not to have noticed something at one of those times.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The breeder didn't notice?
> 
> I am assuming for $1,700.00 that this puppy was vet checked and came with a health certificate and the breeder's vet did not notice?
> 
> ...


Balls go up and down.....
:grin2:

Actually, when I am playing with my dogs, I don't fondle their testicles to make sure they are there. In the vet check, the vet turns the puppy over and rubs along the side of the penis and feels whether they are present -- they have not dropped yet. But they might say 1 is there, the right one, then they look for the other. It is not something you just notice while you are playing with your dog-puppy. You have to look for them, or rather feel for them. I listen to what the vet says and make note if they only find one. They can still drop after 8 weeks. I think, but I am not 100% sure that it was the third vet visit where they finally found Otis's second at about 16 weeks. It wasn't even palpatable at 7 and 11 weeks of age.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Balls go up and down.....
> :grin2:
> 
> Just like a yoyo! :wink2: That is why you keep your eye on the ball!
> ...


I hate to say I have been lucky, I like to think most of it was good genetics, at least when it comes to buying from a breeder. Every pup I bought from a breeder has been bought sight unseen. Each pup has been checked by my vet within a few days of arrival who verified both testicles were present. Maybe working line GSDs are a bit more machismo, but the presence of the two testicles are fairly obvious just with a visual from fairly early on, at least with the ones I have owned. Tummy rubs expose all I need to see.

To quote a small portion of a contract on one of my dogs: "...satisfaction guarantee for all genetic defects not including hips/elbows. Please see hip and elbow guarantee in paragraph..." ...And cryptorchidism is genetic. 

I think when you pay good money, and $1,700.00 is good money, that somebody somewhere on the long trail of people who should have been checking things that somebody should have noticed. It seems that a couple of testes aren't the only thing missing.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The breeder offered the OP a new pup with descended testicles. If it bothers him this much he should probably take her up on the offer. The pup deserves an owner who doesn't think of him as second best. And if he wants a dog he can breed then I guess he should get one. But, whatever you choose OP remember that you made the choice. Breeder in my opinion went out of her way to appease. Pet quality/ show quality. I have 3 dogs laying beside me on the floor (ones a mongrel). That I wouldn't trade for the number one show dog available right now. Even if I woke up tomorrow and ones ears went down, one had 2 legs fall off, and the other dogs tail went missing. But, and maybe I am wrong but, I think maybe breeding is more important then the OP wants to openly admit.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

selzer said:


> There are a lot of worse things out there. MegE, EPI, ED, DM, Epilepsy, Wobblers, bloat, spondylosis, HD, liver shunts, pyometra, and on and on and on.
> 
> No dog is perfect, and yes, sometimes we pick and choose. Lots of breeders put ears up. Weak ears are genetic. If the ears are trained up, and helped to stand, then those breeders pass on weak ears and do not feel even a little bit guilty about it. Because they feel that if by gluing/putting a form in the ear and a gluing or taping, they can get that ear to stand without help down the line, then the ears are fine. They deceive themselves, but it is an aesthetic quality. Dogs can live a fine life with a dropped ear. The question is, sometimes, whether the owners are disappointed in the dog.


There is this for soft ears, but I've also read some people use hormone injections for retained testicles, which may or may not work. Either way, that is deceptive, no? And for what purpose... Probably not just for aesthetics.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cdwoodcox said:


> The breeder offered the OP a new pup with descended testicles. If it bothers him this much he should probably take her up on the offer. The pup deserves an owner who doesn't think of him as second best. And if he wants a dog he can breed then I guess he should get one. But, whatever you choose OP remember that you made the choice. Breeder in my opinion went out of her way to appease. Pet quality/ show quality. I have 3 dogs laying beside me on the floor (ones a mongrel). That I wouldn't trade for the number one show dog available right now. Even if I woke up tomorrow and ones ears went down, one had 2 legs fall off, and the other dogs tail went missing. But, and maybe I am wrong but, I think maybe breeding is more important then the OP wants to openly admit.


Ok, if the ear fell down, and the legs fell off, but I'm sorry, I need a dog with a tail. No corgies, rotts or aussies for me, if one of my dogs lost their tail... Hmmmm. Babs? Jenna? Joy? Quinnie? Karma? Ramona? CujoII? Moofie??? Ok, I just can't picture the losing the tail thing. :surprise:

And I know it happens, sometimes a tail has to be amputated, or an eye. I just can't imagine it. 

I am probably going to dream about this tonight. 

Thanks. 

Thanks for the nightmare. :frown2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LittleBear said:


> There is this for soft ears, but I've also read some people use hormone injections for retained testicles, which may or may not work. Either way, that is deceptive, no? And for what purpose... Probably not just for aesthetics.


I have heard of them tacking them down so they cannot ascend and will be down when the ring closes. That's crazy and deceptive. It indicates that the breeder knows they have a problem in their lines, and they are trying to cover it up. I am guessing the hormone thing is the same.

Breeders who breed a dog that they brought back from pyro -- I think that has to have a genetic component to it, or I would have probably had it happen by now. And breeders who suggest you tack the stomach so the dog won't have gastric torsion -- genetic component in that as well. Retained testicle, umbilical hernia -- those are like parents complaining about chicken pox next to parents of kids with leukemia and MS and HIV.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

selzer said:


> I have heard of them tacking them down so they cannot ascend and will be down when the ring closes. That's crazy and deceptive. It indicates that the breeder knows they have a problem in their lines, and they are trying to cover it up. I am guessing the hormone thing is the same.


Not "like" as in liking the covering up of the problem...."like" as in noting some things are not above reproach. Sad though when there are such extreme measures. I love my pup regardless...I used to call him my one-ball wonder, he's now my no-ball wonder. :grin2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LittleBear said:


> Not "like" as in liking the covering up of the problem...."like" as in noting some things are not above reproach. Sad though when there are such extreme measures. I love my pup regardless...I used to call him my one-ball wonder, he's now my no-ball wonder. :grin2:


Ruger, my neutered rescue, had "spirit balls". Thats what we call them around here


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

selzer said:


> Ok, if the ear fell down, and the legs fell off, but I'm sorry, I need a dog with a tail. No corgies, rotts or aussies for me, if one of my dogs lost their tail... Hmmmm. Babs? Jenna? Joy? Quinnie? Karma? Ramona? CujoII? Moofie??? Ok, I just can't picture the losing the tail thing. :surprise:
> 
> And I know it happens, sometimes a tail has to be amputated, or an eye. I just can't imagine it.
> 
> ...


Lol...also watch out for those "spirit balls" that the cowboys girl talked about...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LittleBear said:


> Lol...also watch out for those "spirit balls" that the cowboys girl talked about...


CujoII has spirit balls -- not my doing.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

selzer said:


> Ok, if the ear fell down, and the legs fell off, but I'm sorry, I need a dog with a tail. No corgies, rotts or aussies for me, if one of my dogs lost their tail... Hmmmm. Babs? Jenna? Joy? Quinnie? Karma? Ramona? CujoII? Moofie??? Ok, I just can't picture the losing the tail thing. :surprise:
> 
> And I know it happens, sometimes a tail has to be amputated, or an eye. I just can't imagine it.
> 
> ...


This made me laugh at an old growing-up memory. A neighbor had a mix whose tail had to be amputated. I think they ran it over by accident. After recovery, they got a fake tail for the dog. It lasted about a week and looked so silly being dragged behind like a wet noodle. 

To the op, I'm sorry your pup has this condition and that you are having trouble with the breeders offer. I think if I found myself in your position, I would accept the offer and just make peace with the issue. It sounds like you have a great puppy and life is too short to let bad feelings get in the way of enjoying what you have.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

breeders in Europe are the most common for trying the hormone injections. From my research, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 
The testicles can go up and down until the ring closes, which for our breed is between 6 and 8 months. I've heard of them "appearing" up to a year old, in smaller breeds. If the testicle is palpable in the abdomen, some do massage daily to "guide" it where it needs to go. 

It's honestly something that you have no control over. Even if both are there, one can go up and because the ring is only slightly open, it doesn't manage to wiggle back down into the sac.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > The breeder offered the OP a new pup with descended testicles. If it bothers him this much he should probably take her up on the offer. The pup deserves an owner who doesn't think of him as second best. And if he wants a dog he can breed then I guess he should get one. But, whatever you choose OP remember that you made the choice. Breeder in my opinion went out of her way to appease. Pet quality/ show quality. I have 3 dogs laying beside me on the floor (ones a mongrel). That I wouldn't trade for the number one show dog available right now. Even if I woke up tomorrow and ones ears went down, one had 2 legs fall off, and the other dogs tail went missing. But, and maybe I am wrong but, I think maybe breeding is more important then the OP wants to openly admit.
> ...


Here's a visual for ya Sue


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So, the OP doesn't want a refund, or a replacement puppy. The only other recompense would be installing testicles in the dog.

It's not a truck that didn't get a 5th wheel hitch installed at the dealer.

They came here to vent. There is no solution to the problem that will solve it in their eyes.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

carmspack said:


> "
> You should have checked , or had a vet check to make sure that both testicles were descended at time of purchase.
> That is what a person intending to breed would have done .
> .


 ANY puppy is a gamble. Part of why it is usually more cost effective for police departments to buy green dogs (nearly grown and tested dogs) at around (I am not sure of the going rate today so quoting an older price) $8000 for a dog they just intend to work, not breed. $1800 is in line for a working line puppy these days. 

I think the whole "pay more for breeding rights" is a bit of a crock though (but the breeder is willing to refund that). To me I would rather see the breeder say "put xyz titles on dog and conformation verification, x-rays, health checks and I will life the limited registration". In that regard the only thing I would see is that it would be fair to sell a puppy with a known defect for less.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

David Winners said:


> Here's a visual for ya Sue


That's one good looking dog. Not being sarcastic.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> That's one good looking dog. Not being sarcastic.


I would say so !

natural stack -- STRONG dog (muscles of a boa)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We purchased a pet puppy. Max had one testicle that did not drop it was there but no promises were made it would come down. I was notified ,before we picked up our pup, had a retained testicle and a small hernia at the vet's health check for his health certificate. I do know there are no serious health issues with a retained testicle once you have it removed or neuter them - so we decided to purchase our pup within seconds us being told he had a retained testicle. Our priorities were adding a member to the family. Our vet back home gave us hope it would come down but no luck and no high hopes. If you planned to show your pup and he a retained testicle and or no testicles and promised it would come down by the breeder I can see your headache as this kind of promise is hard to make. Puppies testicles can be there and disappear but curious as what was on your pup's health certificate. Was it not explained to you clearly by the breeder? Even breeders who keep a back a pup is not always how they hoped would turn out. Your breeder is going to refund you some money you are happy with your pup and he has no serious health issues. No guarantees in living and breathing things.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

adding to Jenny720's comments --

but there is the lost income from all those stud fees ! You buy a pet . You got a pet. Apparently an amazing pet . 
The breeder is refunding the $350 . Can't ask for more . 

here is my experience -- and I was the breeder

xxxxxxx

I had an experience which was a one-of , unique experience.

I had a pup in a litter that I was so enthusiastic about -- I was going to run him on , put him through the evaluations and consider as a contributor to the lines , those being in-house and not public stud . 

The vet I have does house calls. 
When the pups are ready for the pup-shots at around 8 weeks of age I will give him a call, he will clear the decks and visit . He gives me all the time in the world . If it takes 3 hours ,then 3 hours it is. (sometimes it becomes this long with all the banter and joking between husband and vet!)

Each pup will get a full examination , which includes a neurological response test , check for heart (more than once during an examination) , eyes including response to light , testicles , the whole shebang .

When a male is examined the vet will mark on the health certificate his findings on the testicles 
Both , check, left or right only , check , found in position close to being dropped , check.
I then confirm .
We put the pup down , let him zoom around the kitchen , pick him up and examine again .
That is because at that age , the pup can pull the testicles.


The male I am writing about did have both testicles descended . 

At 4 months when he was boostered another full physical was given. Both testicles in place .

At 6 months when rabies given another full physical , both testicles in place, and obvious , nothing puny there !

Now this dog was looking and working something primo --- . 

At 9 months I made an appointment for a pre-lim as there was a lot of interest in him from more than one PD.
Take him to the clinic to see the other vet who does all my x rays . 

X rays are taken . Beautiful hips and elbows -- 

And then with all the tech's and assistants in his clinic loving the dog up - the vet says , well too bad Carm you've got a perfect dog here , if only he had some balls. 
HAHAHA nice joke dr. Jim . I'm laughing at the lame joke.

But then things go quiet . 

No really . He is cryptorchid.

You could have knocked me over with a feather .

In total disbelief I had to go a look (brail style) .

NO testicles .

what we determined was that this dog had shortened cords , which prevented the testicles to remain in the scrotum as the body grew up around them .

no breeding obviously .

Happy ending . Dog did go into service with full disclosure at time of sale. That is the important part , full disclosure and informed consent to conditions.
He had a decades worth of service and then retired to life out his life with his handler .

never before and never since -- that sure opened a page in the chapter of life with dogs. 

it can happen , as Nancy says .


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## gsdreeflove (Aug 22, 2016)

brookwoodgirl said:


> cryptorchidism is not an illness. It's not like uterine incontinence in a female, which could be the result of a bad spay or a simple lack of muscle tone due to lack of exercise and weight gain as a bitch ages, or a simple infection. Rather, cryptorchidism a genetic fault, considered a hereditary recessive gene, carried by sire and dam.
> 
> I don't really understand the attitude that this is just something that can happen to a dog in the hands of the owner, like an illness or bad training. Nor is it merely a cosmetic issue, like an ear or a coat, but a health concern. It requires a more invasive operation than a normal neuter to correct. To compare it to a bad ear, bad coat, or a future illness is disingenuous to me.
> 
> I agree the breeder can stand on her contract, but I think the owner also has his point. Yes, if my female develops UI, that's my lookout, not the breeders. OTOH, if my dog develops DM (as one of my dogs did, before there was the ability to screen for it, when researchers were looking to see if there was a genetic component) that's a genetic defect and the breeder now should regard it as a defect in her breeding. A dog with a genetic defect is not the same as a normally intact pet puppy. There's nothing the owner can do about this post contract except find another breeder, and take precautions both in terms of screening his puppy and any future contracts he signs. But I still think the breeder should have offered the owner something more here.


THANK YOU. I have been reading all these posts for the first time and you seem to be the only one not attacking me so far and actually see my point. Thank you for that.


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## gsdreeflove (Aug 22, 2016)

slamdunc said:


> i'm sorry, but i'm late to this thread. Shouldn't the breeder have checked to see if the dog's testicles had dropped at 6, 7 or 8 weeks? I'm thinking an experienced breeder wold pick up on a male with 2 undescended testicles? I understand they go up and down, but a good breeder will know. Imho, a good and experienced breeder wouldn't charge extra for a dog with 2 testicles that haven't dropped, or even one. Not noticing any testicles strikes me as a little odd? Then selling for extra money as a potential breeding dog raises all sorts of red flags with me.
> 
> My advice, take the $350 and cut your losses, i wouldn't want another dog from this breeder either.


thank you!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> That's one good looking dog. Not being sarcastic.


Thanks! She's a tough bitch for sure.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I would say so !
> 
> natural stack -- STRONG dog (muscles of a boa)


I wish you could have seen her fight back in her prime Carmen. She's about 65 pounds in that picture. In Afghanistan, running 8 miles a day on the treadmill and then doing missions on top of that, she was 84 pounds, and just as trim. She could (and did) throw a skinny, malnourished terrorist around like a rag doll.










Sorry for the thread derail.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NancyJ said:


> ANY puppy is a gamble. Part of why it is usually more cost effective for police departments to buy green dogs (nearly grown and tested dogs) at around (I am not sure of the going rate today so quoting an older price) $8000 for a dog they just intend to work, not breed. $1800 is in line for a working line puppy these days.
> 
> I think the whole "pay more for breeding rights" is a bit of a crock though (but the breeder is willing to refund that). To me I would rather see the breeder say "put xyz titles on dog and conformation verification, x-rays, health checks and I will life the limited registration". In that regard the only thing I would see is that it would be fair to sell a puppy with a known defect for less.


I believe someone should buy a breeding dog with the expectation of that in their mind. If they choose to buy a puppy, they should not buy a puppy with limited registration. 

I know the breeder can change the registration to full. And one can make contracts up to say what hurdles have to be surpassed to get the breeding rights. But, anything can happen in the 2 years it will most likely take to jump those hurdles -- OFA certification requiring the dog to be 24 months. So let's say you have Mr. Perfect, and his hips and elbows come back good/normal and everything else is a go, and he is titled, and the dog is spectacular. So you call up the breeder to go and show her the dog and all of your paperwork, only to find your breeder croaked, and her power of attorney, is her niece, and her niece doesn't believe dogs should be owned, much less bred, and no chance at her changing the status for you. What do you do? Can she even do it, considering ONLY the breeder can. I suppose you could try to get the AKC to do it for you, not sure if it will be a go or not. And if you already promised him to stud, or used him on one of your bitches, knowing it was a done deal, then you are even deeper.

I would never buy a dog on a limited registration in hopes that in two years the breeder will change it for me. If you want to breed, buy a full registration.

Frankly, if a breeder does not trust someone to make good decisions with their dog, they should not sell them the puppy. Done. Limited registration should be for dogs that have a disqualifying fault, so that if the dog is bred, puppies are not AKC. Done. That way, your heirs will not be trying to sort through your dogs, and what is ok and what is not ok when it comes to adjusting registrations. And the AKC can accept that if the pup was sold on a limited registration there was a reason, and they can honor the wishes of the breeder. 

Most breeders are not going to buy a dog unless there is something in your line that they want to incorporate into theirs. They may not have the same priorities as you do, they may have others that are just as valid. And if the breeder trusts the other, a deal can be made and if not, no puppy should change hands. Pretty simple. 

It is a way to get puppy buyers to title their dogs and health test through the various organizations -- all that is good free info for the breeder, and gets her name out there.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> I wish you could have seen her fight back in her prime Carmen. She's about 65 pounds in that picture. In Afghanistan, running 8 miles a day on the treadmill and then doing missions on top of that, she was 84 pounds, and just as trim. She could (and did) throw a skinny, malnourished terrorist around like a rag doll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that Fama!? I read some of the awesome stories but never saw a picture of her.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

David--Every inch of Fama radiates: WARRIOR. Stunning picture of you both.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I wish you could have seen her fight back in her prime Carmen. She's about 65 pounds in that picture. In Afghanistan, *running 8 miles a day on the treadmill* and then doing missions on top of that, she was 84 pounds, and just as trim. She could (and did) throw a skinny, malnourished terrorist around like a rag doll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She's gorgeous! Is there a reason that mileage was chosen? Is there a reason that a treadmill was chosen for exercise?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

David Winners said:


> carmspack said:
> 
> 
> > I would say so !
> ...


Gorgeous girl love the that "game on" look on her face!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Yes, that's Fama.

8 miles worked out because my workout was an hour long and she ran well at 8 MPH on the treadmill. I chose the treadmill because she could work out when i was.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Moriah said:


> David--Every inch of Fama radiates: WARRIOR. Stunning picture of you both.


She is definitely a warrior. I have a thing for strong females, and got lucky to get assigned her in school.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I am so happy that you got her back when she retired.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Oh wow I did not know this. Im glad you were able to reunite again. Great partners deserve to be together.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Yes, that's Fama.
> 
> 8 miles worked out because my workout was an hour long and she ran well at 8 MPH on the treadmill. I chose the treadmill because she could work out when i was.


Where is she from (lines, kennel)? Deja has the same look.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I fought the hard fight, and had some help from some good friends that enabled me to get her at retirement.

She came from a KNPV vendor in Holland, as so many of the working dogs do. I have no idea what lines or kennels she came from. So many of the GSDs from those type vendors look very similar. I often see a picture that could definitely be Fama.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think in the end, the buyer was unaware of how things actually work. All that a breeder can guarantee as far as a dog being a breeding prospect is that, at the time the puppy was purchased, the dog had no obvious disqualifying faults. The same if you purchased a puppy to work a specific job, compete in some manner, or show in conformation. 
Puppies are a crap shoot! 
I know someone who purchased a puppy. Very good example of his breed. Spent thousands of $$ on conformation shows and professional handlers. Dog completed his CH, started showing in rally and obedience. Grew to be a smidge over the size she wanted. Neutered. 
Another prospect puppy, great in every aspect but only one testicle at 6 months. Neutered.
Puppies who have been perfect in every way except as the grew, slight overbite.
Or an adult tooth that didn't come in.
Ears that didn't go up.
Tail that isn't right for the breed.
Grew too tall or didn't grow tall enough. 
Dogs that are slightly out of proportion for their standard (length vs height).
Dog doesn't pass some portion of the health tests for his breed.
And, finally, even if the dog is good in every other aspect, he simply doesn't fit what the breeder is looking for in his program. 

There is absolutely no way to look at an 8 week old puppy and say "Yes. When he is an adult he will be a great example of his breed" 

It's simply part of the business of buying, training, and working with dogs. Anyone who was right even most of the time in picking puppies is a rarity.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that people start out wanting perfection for their breeding animals, and then they speuter and place dogs that 10 years down the line they are kicking themselves for doing so. "A smidgen oversized?" Not a disqualifying fault, in fact, a properly sized bitch or dog is unlikely to win championship points in the AKC, not for GSDs. 

At some point you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You have to look at the whole dog and measure what the dog brings to the table against what the dog is lacking, and make a decision. 

Perfect is in heaven. 

And every breeder should have a no-fly-zone, where regardless of how an animal does in other respects, if it has say, faulty character than no way would you breed the dog. If you want to be known as a breeder of good top line, balanced, moderate angulation, your no-fly-zone might include dogs with greater slope, roach, too straight in front, etc. You might let an inch on height slide in favor of the top line you are looking for. But it is the overall all dog -- never for one attribute that you accept in your breeding pool. Greatest top line out there, or best side gait, or whatever, doesn't trump weak nerves or serious medical issue or whatever you have chosen for your no-fly-zone. 

TL, DR: I think we can be too picky. But ya have to be somewhat discriminating.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

selzer said:


> I think that people start out wanting perfection for their breeding animals, and then they speuter and place dogs that 10 years down the line they are kicking themselves for doing so. "A smidgen oversized?" Not a disqualifying fault, in fact, a properly sized bitch or dog is unlikely to win championship points in the AKC, not for GSDs.
> 
> At some point you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. You have to look at the whole dog and measure what the dog brings to the table against what the dog is lacking, and make a decision.
> 
> ...


I didn't say that the dog I was talking about was a GSD. It is a breed that does have a size limit in the standard and being over-sized moves a dog into a different variety. So, yes, a dog that at maturity is over-size is a bit of a big deal. Especially if the females that you hoped to breed him to are more than likely going to end up on the smaller side of the standard. Even with a GSD, if your females tend to be large you aren't likely to choose a male that is also tending toward over-size because then you've almost guaranteed that your next generation is going to be bigger as well. 
And, yes, there are some GSDs that finish their CH before being full grown and once they are mature are over-sized for the standard. When there are so many dogs out there to choose from, some breeders believe in only going with as close as possible to perfection.

My only point was that there are a lot of factors that can wipe out a dog out of breeding potential. Or, working potential.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, sorry, for thinking we were discussing GSDs. My bad. Wonder where I got that idea. 

But, I just took my werewolf to a show, not entered, and talked to a GSD conformation judge, laughing saying she was a "teacup- German Shepherd dog." The lady looked at me horrified (I know this person). I told her I was joking. And she said something to the effect that a lot of people would probably like them her sized, but that wouldn't win in the ring. 

I then told her she was 23" at the withers -- smack in the middle of the AKC standard for females, and she is only 10 months now, so she might grow yet (doubt it). The judge then told me, something like, yeah, she is correct, but that size isn't what they are looking for. We were only talking about her size, not her overall conformation. Another show breeder told me the same thing. 

And other breeds too, sometimes you will see a class of Dobermans or Shepherds or pick a breed, in the ring and you will see one visibly smaller than the others, who never wins. And you find out that he is at the upper limit of what the breed ought to be -- all the other dogs are over-sized, obviously in those breeds not a disqualifying fault, but as most judges aren't measuring, they like the impression of the bigger dogs, and discount the properly sized dog as incorrect.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> I then told her she was 23" at the withers -- smack in the middle of the AKC standard for females, and she is only 10 months now, so she might grow yet (doubt it). The judge then told me, something like, yeah, she is correct, but that size isn't what they are looking for. Another show breeder told me the same thing.


Wow. That's pretty sad. 
Russell has a half sister (same sire) that is very small, at the low end of the standard. She finished her championship this year, and got a Group 3.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a bitch who is out of the same lines -- same grandparents as Quinn, and she is being shown. Larger than Quinn -- taller. All the bitches there were taller -- all breed ring, but the judge was more of a Specialty Judge. 

Could be typical our location. It just seems like everyone around here are looking for big dogs. Not new either. This has been going this way for at least 10 years when I started following the show stuff.


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