# Your Interpretation of New Heeling Rules?



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

From another thread going on right now:

The USA website put up the new rules in a powerpoint slideshow and it says there:
"Heeling shall be normal movement or gait. Prancing or bouncing is not correct."

So, what is YOUR interpretation of "prancing or bouncing?"

Out of curiosity, and to get some conversation going, would you consider Medo's heeling "too much" "just right" or "make that boy bounce some more!" per how YOU would judge under the new rules?

Now, keep in mind he's not even 11 mo. old yet and we have a LONG way to go refining things, but this is definitely his "natural" way to heel. I spent MONTHS AND MONTHS on position and when we finally added speed to it, this is what was just there.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think his heeling looks gorgeous! What I think of when I hear bouncy is those dogs that are literally jumping up towards the handler during their heeling. I don't think he is too prancy at all. He looks very attentive and his topline stays very level for the most part.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Seems to me you are right at the threshold for bouncing/prancing. I think if you keep doing what you are doing, then you will be a "ok".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Agree, and he is in sync with your pace, which makes it look great~ hopefully as he matures he will be as enthusiastic to heel!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Justine I think he looks great! I don't see how that would be any problem with the rules, new or otherwise. He is focused, looks correct (at least from the angle/distance of the video), shows consistency in those clips.

As Frank clarified earlier today, the bouncing that is not correct is the literal bouncing, at least this is the way I understand it. The dogs that are hopping, rearing up, and/or constantly changing between a normal walking position (like a standing position) and sitting/scooting along are not correct because the topline is all over the place. Medo's topline stays the same. Honestly I don't think that many people will be effected by the supposed new heeling rules.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Liesje said:


> As Frank clarified earlier today, the bouncing that is not correct is the literal bouncing, at least this is the way I understand it. The dogs that are hopping, rearing up, and/or constantly changing between a normal walking position (like a standing position) and sitting/scooting along are not correct because the topline is all over the place. Medo's topline stays the same.


And how that kind of heeling ever scored well is beyond me!!!!! I guess I'm around too many "boring" heelers lol. I know I vaugly recall seeing some clips of stuff like that, but not sure where. Anyone want to throw someone under the bus and have the link to a video you think will be "over the top?"

Part of this is based on the thread I quoted, and part of this is the fact I met a rather unpleasant person a few weekends ago that came to the French Ring club I train at sometimes and was lecturing the few SchH people that were there about how horrible all our dogs were going to score under the new rules. And his dog looked like it wanted to jump off a bridge to end it's misery when he was "heeling"...but to each their own.

So I was curious if there were any other people out there that would interpret Medo's "type" of heeling as "over the top" per the new rules.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm not sure if this person is training for Schutzhund or why he would intentionally teach this heeling, but its an example of how I've seen some dogs heel in trial before.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I could be wrong but I think people are getting too worked up over this heeling thing. Being out of position has always been incorrect. I've seen a few people with dogs who honestly *are* in position all the time (dog and handlers' shoulders align) but the dogs are doing other crazy or ugly stuff like the rearing up or scooting the butt. But I really think this is a small number of people. This clarification in the rules is not an excuse for a dog to heel like he's going for a walk around the block, give no focus, no drive.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> I'm not sure if this person is training for Schutzhund or why he would intentionally teach this heeling, but its an example of how I've seen some dogs heel in trial before.
> 
> Dog Training - Teaching a Bouncing Heel - YouTube


OMG that is HORRIBLE! I can't believe he is using that to advertise dog training. Yikes. 



Liesje said:


> This clarification in the rules is not an excuse for a dog to heel like he's going for a walk around the block, give no focus, no drive.


I agree. But I wonder how many other people other there think like this guy......I mean this guy was basically saying "your type has been getting high undeserved scores for years, and it's finally my turn to shine." 

And yes, his dog looked like he was going for a walk around the block he didn't want to be on. And no wonder. He doesn't believe in rewards either..........but that's a topic for another thread!


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Your dog is worth keeping just for the heeling, very nice!

I think a lot of the bouncing/jumping may come from trainers who put the reward under the armpit, in a ball drop vest or possibly food in the hand above the dog luring it. Some dogs just do it natrually, that is a training issue as well.

Focused heeling is just that. Not a dog walking along beside the handler looking at where the toy usually is or waiting for it to appear. In the end you shouldnt need a toy.

I watched a dog trial that had BEAUTIFUL heeling, looking straight up all the time for a toy, but everything else was sloppy or incomplete. Ended up with a score in the low 70's. Some people may not understand competitive heeling and why it is done.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I could be wrong but I think people are getting too worked up over this heeling thing. Being out of position has always been incorrect. I've seen a few people with dogs who honestly *are* in position all the time (dog and handlers' shoulders align) but the dogs are doing other crazy or ugly stuff like the rearing up or scooting the butt. But I really think this is a small number of people. This clarification in the rules is not an excuse for a dog to heel like he's going for a walk around the block, give no focus, no drive.


 
BINGO BINGO BINGO...we have BINGO!!!!!!

You are absolutely correct. The BIG problem came from the "translation". Someone translating from German to English chose the words "prancing and bouncing" and then everyone freaked out from there.....Better wording wouild have been "jumping, hopping. constantly trying to sit every step"... something like that. 


To the original poster GSDElsa.....Your heeling is beautiful, looks like he "might" want to push a little and may fordge slightly around the 12 second mark of video (just something to keep and eye on) But the attitude and intensity in your dog is very very nice....This heeling will not be a deduction if the position is correct to go along with the happy, free, spirited attitude he is showing (and as long as your hand position is more normal )....

For the other video...."bounce heeling"....seariously????? Horrible!


Frank


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

The heeling looks very nice, Justine!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

GSDElsa, I think your heeling looks nice. Especially for an 11 month old puppy . Looks like a fun dog to work with.
Personally, I don't love those overly exaggerated, bouncy, head bent back to the shoulder blade heel positions. 
My husband went to a seminar not too long ago where one of the instructors was demonstrating how to train the head position on the heel. Basically the guy held the dogs head up and back the entire time. My husband hated it and decided if that was the current trend he'd take the hit in points and teach his dog to heel the way we always have. Luckily his dog and mine have always just watched our faces without much prodding and I'm going to keep working along in that mode. My girl tends to walk with her head in a crouched position, kind of like she is a herding dog and holding eye contact with the sheep. It may not be the current trend but I don't want to make her walk in what would be an unnatural position.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Re: my un natural hand position.....from the beginning I teach heel having the dog push into my hand to use it to help control body position. It gradually gets moved up and faded away. So dont worry, for the finished product by hand is definitely not going to be there! And I am happy to say that each time I noticed him starting to move ahead I also realized it was my fault and my hand was moving too far forward. If only I predicted how much concentration would be required for waking around on slick frozen grass, with big rubber boots and ski pants on :rofl:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My interpretation has always been that they will now penalize the dogs that look like they are crawling behind as though they are about to sit. The prancing translation never made sense so we sent a video of our flashiest heeling dog to the DOJ and his answer confirmed what I thought.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

I agree with most of the posters here. Nathaniel Roque, who is the director of judges for USCA, gave a presentation on the new rules when he was down to judge our trial. We discussed a lot of things, and in particular, the heeling. The focus of incorrect heeling will be placed on the topline of the dog, not the front legs. The dog's topline should move in a natural and smooth manner- not with excessive bouncing or excessive collection in the rear. I agree with this for the most part. I do not like the dogs who are coming off the ground in a bounce with both front feet. My only concern is for those dogs that I have seen who are quite large and with a short handler. These dog's have to be collected in the rear to some degree to stay in position with a short strided handler, especially on the slow pace. Also, the rules are so loosly written that I am concerned that one judges interpretation of "too much prancing" will be drastically different from another. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

That said, your dog has lovely heeling and I think is well within the acceptable range as long as the judge understands to be looking at the topline and not the front legs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've got one dog that doesn't heel perfect no matter whose rules we use. That's just how he is. It's like that recent USCA article about being happy with a "G" dog. That's my dog, a solid "G" dog (but he's better at tracking). The heeling pattern is worth, what, 10...15 points out of 100? So I've got a high threshold, medium drive dog that wasn't trained to lure for a toy and has a physical problem that impedes the right amount of collection in the rear. He heels the way he heels and I'd rather not nitpick it to death because personally things like the retrieve exercises and showing precision with the out of motion exercises are more of a priority to me, especially when it comes to points. My dog shows pace changes and turns, he never leaves me, and he has correct control/obedience during protection so that's good enough for me for a dog who I never intended to put on podiums.

I see this rule change (which to me sounds more like a clarification than a change) as something that doesn't effect me at all. My high "G"/low "SG" dog is still going to be a high "G"/low "SG" obedience dog. My younger dog who shows much more drive in his obedience is already correct and doesn't rear up on his legs or drag his butt so these things don't really apply. They just make it a tad more strict for the few people who do have these problems.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Thats the clarification I needed... I thought it referred to bouncing up and down and prancing as well... Now I understand it refers to one behavior I dislike which is that constant trying to sit and scooting around...

As far as the bouncing goes, I don't know - my dog did it when he was younger and we just started a training session, I just ignored it and kept walking (no reward but no big deal about it either) and rewarded when he calmed down and looked like the picture I had in my mind and he got the idea relatively quickly (but that's just one case)


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I also saw this as a listed proposed rule. I believe it was actually posted in one of the more recent USA magazines.

"Heeling with the head turned up the way the Malinois frequently heel is not a natural body posture for German Shepherds and cannot be graded excellent."

Is this true?


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I also saw this as a listed proposed rule. I believe it was actually posted in one of the more recent USA magazines.
> 
> "Heeling with the head turned up the way the Malinois frequently heel is not a natural body posture for German Shepherds and cannot be graded excellent."
> 
> Is this true?


NO! It was a Canadian Judge's first impression of the proposed rules, long before the wording was finalized and approved in April.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

schh3fh2 said:


> NO! It was a Canadian Judge's first impression of the proposed rules, long before the wording was finalized and approved in April.


Gotcha. I remember reading it and thinking "If that's true, a whole lot of people are going to be pretty upset." Thanks again!


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

schh3fh2 said:


> The BIG problem came from the "translation". Someone translating from German to English chose the words "prancing and bouncing" and then everyone freaked out from there.


Translated from what to what? I have looked in both the English and German copies of the FCI IPO rule book and can't find anything about "prancing or bouncing" in either. 

http://www.fci.be/circulaires/55-2011-annex-en.pdf


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