# Is it a purebred or is it not?



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I am just curious what everyone's response is to this.

Many here have a GSD that they got from a shelter or rescue and it came with no papers(pedigree papers) unknown history. Does the fact the GSD has no papers make it a mutt and not a purebred GSD? Is it right to call someone's unpapered dog a purebred? 

Can someone tell just by looks if a dog is a purebred?

Also to everyone who has papered GSDs: Do you find it disrespectful if someone calls their unpapered GSD a GSD?
Breedes: Do you feel disrespect or feel it is disrespectful for someone to call their unpapered GSD a GSD?


My opinion: I think my dogs are purebreds, even without papers. If you get your dog from a GSD rescue or a shelter and looks EXACTLY like a GSD, then, IMO its a GSD. I really don't think papers should be the only way to determine if a dog is a GSD. I think if you form an educated opnion such as talking to other GSD owners, responsible GSD breeders, and read up on the GSD breed, then I say its safe to say its ok to call your paperless dog a purebred GSD.

I am just curious. This is for the sake of discussion. This is NOT to make someone feel as if their dog is not good enough. I just want to know everyone's opinion. This also applies to other breeds. But since we are GSD people this is about GSDs. But feel free to compare other breeds such as a Mals, Dutchies etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think papers mean much... though it's great to know the lineage of the dog you have to understand the temperament a bit more. I wish I had it with Onyx especially. 
As far as purebred without papers...of course they are! 
I don't feel bad because two of my 'purebreds' don't have papers. They are what they are, regardless. And both are probably such a mishmash of lines(/Am pet/show/working), I don't know if the papers would be more of an embarrassment than not knowing.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think papers mean much... though it's great to know the lineage of the dog you have to understand the temperament a bit more. I wish I had it with Onyx especially.
> As far as purebred without papers...of course they are!
> I don't feel bad because two of my 'purebreds' don't have papers. They are what they are, regardless. And both are probably such a mishmash of lines(/Am pet/show/working), I don't know if the papers would be more of an embarrassment than not knowing.



I agree completely. My dogs are probably a mix of who knows what lines. So I think its safe to remain a mystery.lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

German Shepherds are varied. You have very well bred dogs within their lines, that one can say are cookie cutter for the type, whatever type of shepherd they are. DDR, Czech, ASL, WGSL, etc. Even with a well bred within the line dogs, you can have off colors, off coats, more or less angulation, lacking in secondary sex characteristics, oversize, undersize, etc. 

Cookie cutters are more likely when you breed within the line with some line breeding. Out crossing can still create cookie cutters if you are breeding like type to like type, but it is not as controlled as a line bred pedigree. When you move outside of the specific type, outcrossing will increase variation. When you move outside of the specific lines, if you breed and ASL to a Czech dog for example, you will have even more variations. 

On occasion you will have people breeding for certain traits, like off colors, or coats. 

And all of these dogs can still be AKC. 

And certain genetic faults like happy tails, and drop ears happen even with dogs with AKC pedigrees. A straight-back bi-color with drop ears doesn't look like a West German Show line dog. But it can still be pure-bred. 

I think it is ok to call a dog that looks like a GSD a GSD. In fact, you can get a PAL (Purebred Alternative Listing) number for the dog and it can compete in anything except conformation at regular shows. If the dog has a CAR number -- Canine Alternative Listing the show has to allow for mixed breed dogs to be entered, not all do. To get a PAL, you need to submit pictures of the dog, money, I think a statement from the vet, and proof that the dog has been altered to the AKC. 

I kind of think pure-bred sounds like you can prove that for so many generations the dog has only a certain breed in its lineage, ie. papers. So I would call them GSDs, but I would not say purebred, because you cannot be certain that there is nothing else in there. But the AKC does say purebred. So I am probably in the minority on that. 

Do I get angry if someone says their dog without papers is a purebred, or a GSD, no. It does not effect me at all how they think of their dog. If it matters to them, that's fine. But if you want to ensure that the dog is pure-bred, get one with papers, that is the only way to ensure it. So if it really matters to you, get one with papers. Otherwise, if it looks like a GSD, and acts like a GSD, it is a GSD.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> German Shepherds are varied. You have very well bred dogs within their lines, that one can say are cookie cutter for the type, whatever type of shepherd they are. DDR, Czech, ASL, WGSL, etc. Even with a well bred within the line dogs, you can have off colors, off coats, more or less angulation, lacking in secondary sex characteristics, oversize, undersize, etc.
> 
> Cookie cutters are more likely when you breed within the line with some line breeding. Out crossing can still create cookie cutters if you are breeding like type to like type, but it is not as controlled as a line bred pedigree. When you move outside of the specific type, outcrossing will increase variation. When you move outside of the specific lines, if you breed and ASL to a Czech dog for example, you will have even more variations.
> 
> ...


I talked about that with the person I was having the conversation with who thought that it was an insult to breeders to call a paperless dog a purebred because of all the hard work breeders put in to their dogs. They obviously don't know what the PAL means.lol

The person was pretty much saying a rescue/shelter doesn't deserve a breed name at all.

They were saying it you can only guess that the dog is pure and that is was an absolute fact that that dogs without papers are mutts.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

selzer said:


> I kind of think pure-bred sounds like you can prove that for so many generations the dog has only a certain breed in its lineage, ie. papers.* So I would call them GSDs, but I would not say purebred, because you cannot be certain that there is nothing else in there.* But the AKC does say purebred. So I am probably in the minority on that.
> 
> Do I get angry if someone says their dog without papers is a purebred, or a GSD, no. It does not effect me at all how they think of their dog. If it matters to them, that's fine. But if you want to ensure that the dog is pure-bred, get one with papers, that is the only way to ensure it. So if it really matters to you, get one with papers. Otherwise, if it looks like a GSD, and acts like a GSD, it is a GSD.


I totally agree with this. If I had an unpapered dog that looked purebred and someone asked me what breed it was, I would say "german shepherd" but I would not say "purebred german shepherd".


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Syaoransbear said:


> I totally agree with this. If I had an unpapered dog that looked purebred and someone asked me what breed it was, I would say "german shepherd" but I would not say "purebred german shepherd".


If you say German Shepherd you are already implying that he is purebred :help:
unless you specifically say "GSD Mix"...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Also to everyone who has papered GSDs: Do you find it disrespectful if someone calls their unpapered GSD a GSD?
> Breedes: Do you feel disrespect or feel it is disrespectful for someone to call their unpapered GSD a GSD?


Nope as an owner and a breeder neither bothers me. I think people that are bothered by this need to get a life. What I do find insulting to the breed is when someone calls their spooky fear biting nerve bag a GSD.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog certainly doesn't care - bragging rights should be on how great the dog is , not how great the papers are .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> the dog certainly doesn't care - bragging rights should be on how great the dog is , not how great the papers are .


Absolutely agree. 

However, if the dog is what the papers promised... you totally have the right to brag about it. Especially if you are he breeder of said dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> The person was pretty much saying a rescue/shelter doesn't deserve a breed name at all.


That's ludicrous. It sounds like the person is saying they don't want to have to learn how to recognize and identify purebred dogs.

In many cases no one will be able to know beyond a reasonable doubt whether a dog is purebred, that is true. But any one of us could tell a purebred GSD when we see it, whether it has papers or not. When a dog is obviously a purebred I see nothing wrong with calling it so. If there is any doubt at all, then say so. But unfortunately, purebreds do end up in shelters and rescue. To say they don't is just ignorant.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Freestep, I read the whole thing Jessie is talking about. The very same people say that German Shepherds are bred to be human aggressive... you can't change their mind on both the topics...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Well, at least there's a germ of truth to the "human-aggressive" thing. GSDs are used as police, guard, military, etc. and there there has to be a genetic component present in order to train a dog for bitework. But to say a dog trained for such duties is "HA" is not really accurate. I'd define a dog with HA as a dog who hates everyone except his handler; there are breeds that are bred FOR this trait, but GSDs are not one of them.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I like to judge based on content if the person has no pedigree information.
"High Content GSD" to "Low Content GSD" based on phenotyping.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Freestep said:


> That's ludicrous. It sounds like the person is saying they don't want to have to learn how to recognize and identify purebred dogs.
> 
> In many cases no one will be able to know beyond a reasonable doubt whether a dog is purebred, that is true. But any one of us could tell a purebred GSD when we see it, whether it has papers or not. When a dog is obviously a purebred I see nothing wrong with calling it so. If there is any doubt at all, then say so. But unfortunately, purebreds do end up in shelters and rescue. To say they don't is just ignorant.


Exactly. I tried to say very much of the same thing like "Sometimes you can just tell" and "that sometimes looks is the only you can go by". But they kept going on about how some breeds look so much alike. I was telling them that not many dogs look like GSDs. I was trying to explain it would be harder for other breeds like bully breeds because many of them look like and have similar physical attributes. I agree some dogs you just can't tell, but in some cases you can.

They did say purebreds with papers did end up shelters, and I even said that, but they don't believe purebreds without papers end up in shelters.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> They did say purebreds with papers did end up shelters, and I even said that, but they don't believe purebreds without papers end up in shelters.


:crazy: Wow. There is no end to their stupidity?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

You can say your GSD is purebred AKC. Who is going to check?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> ...
> They did say purebreds with papers did end up shelters, and I even said that, but they don't believe purebreds without papers end up in shelters.


There's an old saying that "Ignorance is Bliss!" ... this person must be extremely happy! :gsdbeggin:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have 7 dogs and two long-term fosters. 
Out of those 9 dogs, all but two are purebred dogs. You can see with your own eyes that they are, but of course there's no papers to "prove" it.

We have rescued hundreds more that were quite obviously purebred. People who think it's papers that make a dog purebred slay me.


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## wbill234 (Oct 5, 2013)

We bought a german shepherd from a neighbor and were given papers stating the parents were both GSD's. We are not sure at the moment...she is about 9 months old and resembles a GSD but still has floppy ears and the majority of people who see her think she is mixed with a lab. It doesn't matter to us at this point because we love the dog, she is very smart and great with our kids (and cats). We would really just like know one way or the other. The reason this came up today was because I was talking to our vet who said she was definitely not a full GSD. Don't get me wrong, I love the dog, but am a little disappointed to know that we could have been fooled by someone. Does anyone have any insight they can offer?


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## Abrigo27 (Nov 30, 2015)

Can anyone tell me if my puppy I got is a purebred German shepherd they told me she was but she kinda looks mixed to me. Her pic is on my profile


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ no, we cannot. it's a tiny photo of a black puppy taken from a top view while laying down.


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