# help deciding if i should go with this breeder?



## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

hello guys, i need your help deciding if i should go with this breeder? this will be my first GSD. ive been browsing the internet made a few phone call asking friend and co-workers on how to get GSD that suitable in our lifestyle. But the more i read and watch the more confused i become 

I talked to the breeder several times already asking a few questions. I live in Los Angeles and the breeder is like 60 miles away from where i live its within driving range. here is the website of the breeder

VON DAILY GERMAN SHEPHERDS


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Well.....they are breeding untitled dogs. 

And I'm not sure about the DM testing, can they really say absolutely that their puppies will never ever develop DM? Is the test really perfected to that point?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I would pass on this breeder honestly. I only see two dogs; male and female; and the dogs they're breeding dont appear to have any kind of titles on them. They claim their dogs are good for protection but I'm not seeing anything that says that's fact. I'd like to see, even showlines doing SOMETHING if the breeder claims they're good for this or that. They're piggy backing on the dogs dams and sires accomplishments. What are the accomplishments of the dogs actually being bred?

The following also bothers me because i'm seeing it as a messed up way of saying only showlines make good family members.... 

"
*Show lines versus Working lines*
*It is very important for someone to understand the difference between show lines and working line German Shepherds because there is a vast difference. The working lines are exceptional at what they are bred to do. They have extremely high energy which makes them better for law enforcement when searching hours for a suspect or sniffing large areas for drugs. A working dog has to have something to do at all times or they will get bored. That kind of energy does not work well for a family and in a home atmosphere. We produce a line of German Shepherds that would be naturally protective, proven to be the best generation after generation and still have the calmness to be good with children. I found that in dogs with the West German Show Lines. To receive a top show rating of either a V or VA the German Shepherd Dog is required to be excellent in all fields. The hips have to be certified with either an "a" stamp or OFA, excellent conformation, obedience title (BH), pass an endurance test (AD), a courage test, bite work, and tracking which results in a Schutzhund title (SchH 1, 2 or 3). They cannot be distracted or show any aggression towards the judge, stud dogs or female dogs around them, but be ready to bite when asked too.*

*Our German Shepherd dogs are a big part of our lives, as you can see. Our dogs are not just breeding dogs to us they are part of our family. Our goal is to make your experience with your German Shepherd Dog as happy as ours. "*


*Considering there are SEVERAL members on this board alone and several more we don't even know that HAVE active working lines that are still family members, says a lot. I don't know. I wouldn't go to this breeder for my dog. *


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

Can u guys recommend a breeder here in Los Angeles? Where to get a GSD puppy that will become a good family, companion and ready to protect the pack?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

makokak said:


> Can u guys recommend a breeder here in Los Angeles? Where to get a GSD puppy that will become a good family, companion and ready to protect the pack?


 
I don't know of any breeders in that area. I am going to ask though if the breeder HAS to be in your area or if you'd be willing to have the puppy shipped to you? There are several good quality breeders we could recommend if you're willing to look further out.


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## nikko (Sep 10, 2008)

back in december i got a "huerta hof" puppy. robin is on here and she and carlos are amazing breeders. their dogs are outstanding.(she is pretty great too. has put up with questions and seems to just love to talk about her dogs. has stayed in touch and really seems to care about how the puppy is developing.) we live in new jersey and they are in Illinois. she shipped the pup and it was fine. i never felt worried thru any of it. check out her pups and talk to her....she is a member here.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> I don't know of any breeders in that area. I am going to ask though if the breeder HAS to be in your area or if you'd be willing to have the puppy shipped to you? There are several good quality breeders we could recommend if you're willing to look further out.


how about this one? this one a little far but am still willing to drive there
Canaan German Shepherds

thanks guys for the input!


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

skip. I think those guys sound even worse.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> I don't know of any breeders in that area. I am going to ask though if the breeder HAS to be in your area or if you'd be willing to have the puppy shipped to you? There are several good quality breeders we could recommend if you're willing to look further out.


how about this one?

Von Salerno World Class German Shepherds

thanks guys!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Capone22 said:


> skip. I think those guys sound even worse.


I am not personally into AmLines (or German Showlines) but ??????
I don't see any red flags on that second site.

Maybe the OP could narrow down what their lifestyle is, what they want to do with the dog etc. Learn about the different "types" of GSDs - Dogs from any of the various "types" could work in the situation mentioned.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

hopefully someone more experienced will chime in but I think they look much better. Titled dogs.

Do you only want show line? What about Adler Stein or Danubius? Both working lines I think. Danubius might be mixed.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I am not personally into AmLines (or German Showlines) but ??????
> I don't see any red flags on that second site.
> 
> Maybe the OP could narrow down what their lifestyle is, what they want to do with the dog etc. Learn about the different "types" of GSDs - Dogs from any of the various "types" could work in the situation mentioned.


when I read it, they seemed to be mostly all about looks.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I am not personally into AmLines (or German Showlines) but ??????
> I don't see any red flags on that second site.
> 
> Maybe the OP could narrow down what their lifestyle is, what they want to do with the dog etc. Learn about the different "types" of GSDs - Dogs from any of the various "types" could work in the situation mentioned.


size doesn't matter to us the only thing were looking for is a more calm GSD, purebred and friendly. 

A good family pet and companion for us!


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

Capone22 said:


> hopefully someone more experienced will chime in but I think they look much better. Titled dogs.
> 
> Do you only want show line? What about Adler Stein or Danubius? Both working lines I think. Danubius might be mixed.


were looking for a show lines.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

guys, how about this third one? i found this in akc website.

Von Salerno World Class German Shepherds

thanks guys!


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

IMO, the first breeder you listed has showline dogs ( a male and a female) and at least has some idea about GSD's, although they are inaccurate on some of their information. The second breeder listed, has American line dogs, dogs are only shown in conformation, and again has inaccurate information listed. The third is a well know breeder of showline dogs. Not all of their dogs are titled in work, but all have show titles, and have had hips checked. Of the three, I would be more comfortable with the last one as they are the most knowledgeable of the three, and have been breeding raising and showing dogs for many many years, but it is your choice. As others have said, there are breeders on this site that many of us would recommend if you are open to the idea of having your new puppy shipped.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Keep Looking!

"*are not working lines that produce very high strung nervous dogs"*

*Sounds to me either they do not know what they are talking about or else are trying some comparison BS to sell their own puppies. And a lot of the stuff on the web site might sound very rreassuring to neophyte GSD buyers.*

*Talk to some of the better breeders on this forum and you will get a MUCH better feeling (and a much better pup, I would suspect!).*

*Good luck and RUN from this breeder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would say to first do some reading here to understand responsible breeding practices.

As several have said, there is much incorrect info on the websites I glanced at quickly - for one thing....the SV 'a' normal is NOT equivalent to OFA Excellent...only 3% of OFA dogs go Excellent...and probably 50-60% of the SV hips are 'a' normal....both have similar percentages for failing hips, so you cannot directly correlate the SV and OFA ratings!

You can get the right type of pup from both working or showlines (European)....I personally have not seen any AKC style showlines that I would want to own....so I would only recommend European bred dogs...either a showline or a DDR dog....I am not familar with the geography of various cities in California, but Randy Wittmer Tyson has a good reputation and has both working and show lines...

Witmer-Tyson Imports -

Lee


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

OTOH, there are also MANY excellent breeders of US showline GSD's many of which also do a lot of dog sports even if not many of them do IPO.

So unless the OP is committed to doing IPO or a similar sport, why should they ignore a whole line of potential great pets?

There are a few WL dogs that i would not want (w/o knowing the dog of course) simply because of their looks - blocky heads and very roachy backs!

So looks can be a matter of preference to the OP. 

And from the two that I have seen - I don't think I would want a GSD with a temperament that would allow them to be a world class competetive IPO entrant - WAY too hyper (from the very limited sample of these dogs that I have seen!)

OP - decide what you want in a GSD and THEN go looking, esp. among the many fine breeders (and contacts) that you can find on this forum!!


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

guys, how about this one, this is the fourth one?

Large German Shepherds Puppies For Sale

thank you guys for the input!


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

hey guys, i need your input to this parents, i talked to the breeder last night and they just had a litter yesterday. I dont plan on getting into a show, all i want is a good companion, calm house dog.

Im no expert, can you help me please here is the link Rikkor x Dancer

Thank u guys in advance!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Avoid any breeder who uses the word "large" or "oversize" to describe their dogs. Where are you finding these breeders?


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Avoid any breeder who uses the word "large" or "oversize" to describe their dogs. Where are you finding these breeders?


akc.org


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

The AKC is simply a registry for purebred dogs, just becasue a breeder is listed there does not mean the dogs are great dogs. However: if a breeder signs the breeder's code of ethics there is some indication they are training, titling and health testing the breeding stock. 

I used to get jazzed up about parents being titled. IMHO I do not think it is required. I DO think it is required that there be some indication of the dogs ability to work and some indication of soundness, yes titles on parents do that but so do titles on grandparents. If there are 5 generations with no title in sight I would say walk away really fast. It is hoped that these kennels are working and training the dogs and seeking some titles.

The Daily kennel is breeding a Theishof female. Surely Hiedi Theis sold her this dog for this purpose? I hope so anyway. Although parents are not titled I like thse two dogs being bred. 

The second link, Canaan, is American showlines and they show in conformation. If you want an American showline, they look fine to me. 

Salerno is a West German Showline breeder. These dogs look okay too. 

You said you wanted a showline for a family companion, any of these would probably be okay. Personally, I prefer the West Germn Showline over the American but it is a personal choice. I have both American and German, I started with American and switched to German showlines. My Kayos is American, Havoc and Lydi are German.

Many on the board prefer the working line dogs and are trying to steer you there. You get what you want and what will work for you. As I said any of those breeders would be adequate for what you are looking for for your family. There are many working line dogs that might work out in your family too. 

As for showlines not being able to work---- phooey on that. I do not do Schutzhund becasue I don't like it, I have tried it with Havoc and he surely has the ability and both of his parents are titled at 2 and 3 level. I have been doing obedience and agility and tracking with showlines both American and German for almost 30 years. 

Good luck and show us pictures when you get your baby.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The last one is a huge NO. 

The other three I would have to visit to know more. The litter you posted could be OK. There might be coated dogs in the litter (hard to tell about the female). The mother is pretty. You need to talk to these breeders, meet them and meet their dogs.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Calm *house* dog ok, but please know a German shepherd dog, no matter show line or working line, has A LOT of energy and will take a lot of exercise, both mentally and physically. 

I would look into shipping. A good solid nerve puppy should have no problems with it. And there are lots of good breeders on this site. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

makokak said:


> guys, how about this third one? i found this in akc website.
> 
> Von Salerno World Class German Shepherds
> 
> thanks guys!




These are very nice dogs, I've really liked a lot of their dogs, also check out West Coast German Shepherds, Barbara has a beautiful female long coat puppy for sale.


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## KeystonGSD (Jul 6, 2011)

*Why Avoid Breeders that use Large to Describe Their Dogs*

I'm just curious, why it would be correct to avoid breeders that use the word large to describe their dogs? Should one look only at breeders that use the word small or average? Not trying to be a smartass, but I wished that you would go into more detail.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

KeystonGSD said:


> I'm just curious, why it would be correct to avoid breeders that use the word large to describe their dogs? Should one look only at breeders that use the word small or average? Not trying to be a smartass, but I wished that you would go into more detail.


 
I believe that it might be a reaction to some few breeders who delibertly breed way oversize GSD's. some even advertise 30"+ male GSD's for example!

"Large" being a key word meaning way over standard (24-26" for males).


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## WestCoastGSD (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks Laurie for the recommendation. Unfortunately I don't have anything available at this time, although the OP is welcome to contact me and possibly be added to a waiting list. Thanks again and good luck to the OP in your search for the right puppy for your family.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Keystone GSD the GSD is not supposed to be more than 26 inches at the shoulder for a male and 24 for a female. Any one intentioanlly breeding dogs larger than that are not breeding to the established standard whether you are breeding Amrican Showlines or German Showlines or 'Hiedelberg types'. 

FWIW my "foriegn import dog" does not show aggression. just sayin'.......


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## KeystonGSD (Jul 6, 2011)

*Breeding Large Shepherds*

I understand ones concern with the term large, but I believe you all are forgetting that the general GSD customer that, we as breeders sell to, are not as well educated as the people on this forum. I personally advertise large, because for one, my shepherds are within the standard, but they are not small, and the average Joe wants a big substantial shepherd. 

One should not dismiss a breeder because he's a good businessman.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

KeystonGSD said:


> I understand ones concern with the term large, but I believe you all are forgetting that the general GSD customer that, we as breeders sell to, are not as well educated as the people on this forum. I personally advertise large, because for one, my shepherds are within the standard, but they are not small, and the average Joe wants a big substantial shepherd.
> 
> One should not dismiss a breeder because he's a good businessman.


Think of them as creepy used car salesmen...just because Joe Schmoe might not know that the guy is full of it, doesn't mean you should buy a car from him... 

You should absolutely dismiss a breeder if it's all "business", as in, breeding oversized dogs because they sell rather than preserving the breed.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I visited Heidelberg Shepherds in Spring, Texas back in the 90's. Pretty dogs. Well maintained kennels, spotless in fact. But a commercial kennel, it was a business. I also was friends with a lady that had a Heidelberg dog which is why I visited the kennel. I wanted one but could not afford the price at the time as I was a single mother with a small child to feed. lNo problem with a business or a profit but I think we owe the average Joe an education. BTW my hubby is named Joe and is really not average, he is well above. 

Keystone I see you are in OK. I am in McAlester, a little bitty run down gritty dirty rednecked town 100 miles south of Tulsa. ( I love it here - NOT!). I work for the DOD and move all over the world. I am NOT from McAlester (thank goodness) and maybe I am arrogant but pride myself on being a bit above the average. I bought my first GSD from a BYB in Haskell(near Tulsa) on my first tour to McAlester. Kayos came from a breeder in Rush Springs, near Lawton. Lydi came from a breeder in McAlester (no she is not form here either....). There are good breeders everywhere but they have a moral obligation to advertise and educate the public that is trusting them enough to buy a puppy. 

So calling your dog large because that is what the public wants is no different than breeders breeding the dog the judge thinks is prettier (as in the AKC breed rings) instead of breeding to the standard.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

having a good family pet is a matter of well you raise, train and socialize. what you put into it is what you're going to get out of it. protection; some are protective some aren't. if i wanted a protective dog he would be trained accordinly. 



makokak said:


> Can u guys recommend a breeder here in Los Angeles? Where to get a GSD puppy that will become a good family, companion and ready to protect the pack?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

KeystonGSD said:


> I understand ones concern with the term large, but I believe you all are forgetting that the general GSD customer that, *we as breeders sell to*, are not as well educated as the people on this forum. I personally advertise large, because for one, my shepherds are within the standard, but they are not small, and the average Joe wants a big substantial shepherd. *(so then we could expect your males to be say, 25-26", then? and they are "within the standard" so very very few would be bigger than 26" - males of course)*
> 
> One should not dismiss a breeder because he's *a good businessman*.


 A good criteria for a breeder of GSD's - right?

And you seem to base YOUR breeding program on "what will sell" and not as was said earlier "to try to better the breed"? is that the case?

If so there is another description that some would apply to that type of breeding program!

HHHMMMM!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

guys, we're trying to help the OP with finding a quality GSD. How about instead of arguing with Keyston about the Joe Schmoe thing, we help the OP with education so they're not another Joe Schmoe! Just an idea. 

OP, please understand that the ONLY way to get a calm GSD is to exercise them and work their minds. My almost 3 year old female is LAZY compared to 98% of all GSDs but I still have to exercise her and make sure she's mentally stimulated. 
A bored GSD is destructive and hyper. 

There are a great deal of wonderful quality breeders but there are even more lesser quality breeders. You've gotten a couple suggestions from people who are involved in breeding quality dogs (Lee) and you've gotten the suggestion of contacting Robin Huerta by someone who has one of her dogs. I'd follow their suggestions if I were you. The first two breeders you posted, I wouldn't go near. I havent looked at the others.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is terribley difficult to make recommendations based on websites alone. There are of course some obvious ones where you could not pay me enough to take one of their dogs, but have fancy, slick websites with all the right buzz words, and there are some very experienced, knowledgeable breeders out there, producing wonderful working dogs and companion dogs, but only have a basic website with minimal info, as they have more than enough customers through word-of-mouth only. 

To the OP, just randomly going through listed websites on a breeder listing, you'll never get through them all! See if you can narrow down some of your criteria, and ask for recommendations. 

Some of the criteria you may consider are first, what type of shepherd are you interested in? (American Showline, German Showlines, or Working Lines), to start. 

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

Then understand what makes a good breeder: 
(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

Choosing a Good Breeder - German Shepherd Rescue of Central Colorado

LOTS more to read here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ngs-look-responsible-breeder.html#post1843356

Seems like an overwhelming task to read all these articles, but at the same time, you could spend, oh I don't know, many MONTHS going through breeder websites of BYB and asking for input. The GSD is one of the most popular breeds, and there are _hundreds_ people breeding their house-pets and calling themselves breeders. No something to encourage by purchasing pups from them. 

Read a bit, then you'll have a better idea of what knowledgeable and educated GSD people look for when searching for a good dog. The feedback you get from the forum about potential breeders that you have selected with a bit more insight on what to look for will be more relevant than posting BYB after BYB and getting "keep looking" after "keep looking" responses.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

KeystonGSD said:


> I understand ones concern with the term large, but I believe you all are forgetting that the general GSD customer that, we as breeders sell to, are not as well educated as the people on this forum. I personally advertise large, because for one, my shepherds are within the standard, but they are not small, and the average Joe wants a big substantial shepherd.
> 
> One should not dismiss a breeder because he's a good businessman.


Keyston the comment was made based on a website listing GSDs in the 29-31 inch height range (or more) and huge dogs in the 120-135 lbs range. That is well outside of the standard.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

Kayos and Havoc said:


> The AKC is simply a registry for purebred dogs, just becasue a breeder is listed there does not mean the dogs are great dogs. However: if a breeder signs the breeder's code of ethics there is some indication they are training, titling and health testing the breeding stock.
> 
> I used to get jazzed up about parents being titled. IMHO I do not think it is required. I DO think it is required that there be some indication of the dogs ability to work and some indication of soundness, yes titles on parents do that but so do titles on grandparents. If there are 5 generations with no title in sight I would say walk away really fast. It is hoped that these kennels are working and training the dogs and seeking some titles.
> 
> ...


thank you for the input!


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

KZoppa said:


> guys, we're trying to help the OP with finding a quality GSD. How about instead of arguing with Keyston about the Joe Schmoe thing, we help the OP with education so they're not another Joe Schmoe! Just an idea.
> 
> OP, please understand that the ONLY way to get a calm GSD is to exercise them and work their minds. My almost 3 year old female is LAZY compared to 98% of all GSDs but I still have to exercise her and make sure she's mentally stimulated.
> A bored GSD is destructive and hyper.
> ...


Thanks you for the input!


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

*long coat dad and short coat mom?*

hey guys, another question. if the dad is long coat and the mom is short coat GSD, do u think they will have both long and short coat puppy or it has to be both parents has a long coat genes to have a long coat puppy?


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## lostangl (Jul 15, 2002)

My first GSD had a long coat mom and a short coat dad. The puppies had both, long and short. Mind ended up with, what I call, a plush coat. Not long and not short.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Look up punnett square:

The _Punnett square_ is a diagram that is used to predict an outcome of a particular cross or breeding experiment.

I bred my stock coat bitch to a stock coat dog. Half the litter stock coat, half the litter long stock coat. So I now know that my bitch carries the long stock coat gene. Look at probabilities. Has either parent produced long stock coat before? Look at the pedigree and coat lengths of the grandparents.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

*breeding the same grandfather?*



dawnandjr said:


> Look up punnett square:
> 
> The _Punnett square_ is a diagram that is used to predict an outcome of a particular cross or breeding experiment.
> 
> I bred my stock coat bitch to a stock coat dog. Half the litter stock coat, half the litter long stock coat. So I now know that my bitch carries the long stock coat gene. Look at probabilities. Has either parent produced long stock coat before? Look at the pedigree and coat lengths of the grandparents.


while looking up the family tree of the dog(mother and father) i found out that they have the same grandfather in their mother side.

is this gonna be a problem?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

The same grandparents just means they are line bred. If they were inbred (mother to son or daughter to father) that WOULD be a problem. Line breeding helps to keep specific desired traits intact. But like with any thing, breeding is not an exact science. Sometimes line breedign for something specific can backfire. I don't like excessive line breeding but some is okay.

As for the long coat - it depends. It is a recessive gene. My female Kayos has a long coat mom and a standard stock coat dad. She is a standard stock coat, albeit a tick plush.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There is your mating check.

I don't know anything about showlines but I think breeding that close is not uncommon (3,3) in those lines.

Line-breeding for the progency of Rikkor von Salerno and Dancer von Salerno


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