# Black GSDs-coat change



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Ok, well Jamie Lee is supposed to be a solid black, but here recently she has started to get tannish/cream coloring on her legs. It is not solid tan, but more like I guess sable(tan mixed w/black). This is only on the back of her legs. She has always had the tan/cream coloring between her toes, but in the last month it the coloring on the back of her legs that has really became noticeable. As a matter of fact when she was playing today I thought her legs were just dirty until I really looked at her in good light. It seemed to happen overnight. Is this coloring going to intensify as she ages or is this a puppy fur thing? She will be 9 mths old on the 24th of this month. 

I should mention her dam is a sable. Her sire is a black.There is a mixture of black & tans, a few sables and several blacks in her history. Am I gonna wake up one morning and have a completely different colored dog? Just curious not that it really matters I will love her regardless.

I included some pics of the back of her legs and feet. Pics should all be 800 x 600 so I guess I am ok there. Please excuse her long nails I have not gotten to dremel her yet. Thanks.


----------



## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I saw someone else that posted the same thing on here last month I think. It's very interesting though.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

jaggirl did a DNA test on her pup who is showing this bleedthru. Not sure if the results are back yet.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> jaggirl did a DNA test on her pup who is showing this bleedthru. Not sure if the results are back yet.


Wow, I took a look at her thread and her Leyna has the same exact markings that Jamie has.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> jaggirl did a DNA test on her pup who is showing this bleedthru. Not sure if the results are back yet.


Actually, I just got them back the other day.  Her results are as follows:

K allele- KyKy (this one allows the A alleles to come through)
Masking gene- EmEm (she carries both copies of the masking gene)
"a" recessive and Ay- "a"+"a" (she is genetically a pure black and does not carry any other colors)

The scientist at VetGen had me email pics of her to him which is why the results took so long. He is actually very interested in why she has so much bleed thru at such a young age. Your pup is actually 8 days younger than mine. In discussions with the scientist, he said it was most likely due to the fact that she had so many sables, bi colors, and blanket back b/t and less blacks. He also thinks that if she was ever bred she would most likely throw those same colors.
Hope this info helps you out. I did a ton of dna swabs to my brat. It has actually been alot of fun and a huge learning experience for me.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> Actually, I just got them back the other day.  Her results are as follows:
> 
> K allele- KyKy (this one allows the A alleles to come through)
> Masking gene- EmEm (she carries both copies of the masking gene)
> ...


 
Thank you so much Kendra. I appreciate your post. So pretty much Jamie is a black w/ bleed thru right? She has a couple sables,4 blk & tans, 2 blk & reds and 4 blks in her history. She is technically a black still. I think the markings are unique. I was just wondering why they were there-thanks now I know.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Thank you so much Kendra. I appreciate your post. So pretty much Jamie is a black w/ bleed thru right? She has a couple sables,4 blk & tans, 2 blk & reds and 4 blks in her history. She is technically a black still. I think the markings are unique. I was just wondering why they were there-thanks now I know.


Yep, black with bleed thru. It is very common with black dogs, just not as common with them this young. Leyna looks (in person) exactly like a very dark melanistic bi-color. I love it though. I think it adds a little something to her cutie bratness. :wub:


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Stosh's best friend is a black 10 mo old gsd and he's doing the same thing-- I've seen it called penciling. It's really cool looking. The breeder Stosh came from has black sable male and he has those same markings. Do dark sables start out as 'black' I wonder?


----------



## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Stosh's best friend is a black 10 mo old gsd and he's doing the same thing-- I've seen it called penciling. It's really cool looking. The breeder Stosh came from has black sable male and he has those same markings. Do dark sables start out as 'black' I wonder?


I've wondered the same thing about the dark sables, Frank is getting some different coloring on him and I've had people call him a black sable, but I thought you couldn't get a sable unless a parent was a sable right?


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Stosh said:


> Stosh's best friend is a black 10 mo old gsd and he's doing the same thing-- I've seen it called penciling. It's really cool looking. The breeder Stosh came from has black sable male and he has those same markings. Do dark sables start out as 'black' I wonder?


I am liking this color on her legs. It is kinda like she has dark sable on her legs. It seems this is common with the solid blacks maybe? I always said I wanted a dark sable and I of course love the blacks- so I guess I got both in one dog. 

I don't know if black sables start as all black. Good question. Maybe someone will chime in and let us know.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Sables always start out as sables.  Some are just darker than others.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Franksmom said:


> I've wondered the same thing about the dark sables, Frank is getting some different coloring on him and I've had people call him a black sable,* but I thought you couldn't get a sable unless a parent was a sable right*?


Not sure about that one. Hopefully someone will chime that knows.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

see if you can locate one of the breeders. They'd know for sure!


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Correct, you can only get sable if a parent was a sable because its the dominant coat pattern and will be expressed if carried. (but you CAN get sables if a parent was a white GSD that was genetically sable but covered by the white masking gene)

Penciling is sort of the opposite of bleed through, bleed through is tan hairs coming through the black. Penciling is the black stripes on the feet of bicolors and sables.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Franksmom said:


> I've wondered the same thing about the dark sables, Frank is getting some different coloring on him and I've had people call him a black sable, but I thought you couldn't get a sable unless a parent was a sable right?


 
Frank is not a sable. He is either a "bright" bi color or a blanket black and tan.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone. I appreciate it. So I got myself a black GSD w/ bleed thru. Like I said before I love her no matter what color she is. It just nice to know.


----------



## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

Wow, that is very interesting. My girl actually has been developing some light tan at the base of her ears, on the back side of course. Upon close inspection, when I move the fur, I can see some tan colored strands around the black. Her legs don't show any signs of any other color changes, its just behind her ears. Its not very noticeable unless we are out in the sun or if I point it out. I wonder if that is a bleed through as well?


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My Sinister has grey on the back of his legs, between his toes and by his booty.

He looks solid black until you look closer. 

Jamie Lee is still beautiful.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

RogueRed26 said:


> Wow, that is very interesting. My girl actually has been developing some light tan at the base of her ears, on the back side of course. Upon close inspection, when I move the fur, I can see some tan colored strands around the black. Her legs don't show any signs of any other color changes, its just behind her ears. Its not very noticeable unless we are out in the sun or if I point it out. I wonder if that is a bleed through as well?


It certainly sounds like bleed through to me. That's how Jamie's is. I didn't even know until I got her into some good light out in the yard like I said before I thought it was dust on her legs. She's got some on her back side as well under her tail. She has always had the tan/cream between her toes since she was 9 wks it just got more prominent as she aged. 

From the description Lin gave bleed through is tan coming through the black which is what Jamie has. I think this is common w/ blacks due to the mixed color patterns in their bloodline like Kendra said.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> My Sinister has grey on the back of his legs, between his toes and by his booty.
> 
> He looks solid black until you look closer.
> 
> Jamie Lee is still beautiful.


Jamie has some white or I guess it would be gray on her tummy as well. Did he have those colors as a puppy? I know Sin is 2 so I know he is fully mature so he hasn't had anymore color changes? I am just wondering if this is all the color she is going to get. I don't mind it, but I want her to be a black shepherd. She is almost 9 mths old so there shouldn't be a drastic change in her coat color. If that was gonna happen it would have happened already right? I might freak out if I wake up one day and she is a black & tan.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

JustMeLeslie said:


> Jamie has some white or I guess it would be gray on her tummy as well. Did he have those colors as a puppy? I know Sin is 2 so I know he is fully mature so he hasn't had anymore color changes? I am just wondering if this is all the color she is going to get. I don't mind it, but I want her to be a black shepherd? I might freak out if I wake up one day and she is a black & tan.


He started getting grey when he was around 8 months old.

In the sunlight he has red on his belly. 

He looks like a black GSD, but when you look hard you can see his other colors. I think he looks awesome. Jamie Lee will still look great no matter what colors pop up, if anymore even pop up.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh yes, I know she will always be my beautiful little girl. I really don't mind the colors. I am more curious about it than anything. It is so amazing the coat changes in sables. I just never really thought anything about other colors coming through on the blacks.


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Id like to know if bicolors can get bleed through, or if not what it is in a bicolor... Black and tans (saddle or blanket) can get bitch stripe etc, but I've never seen bitch stripe on a bi. I petsat for a bicolor imported from France dog and she had what looked like bleed through on her body. In person in the sun she looked almost like a dark sable, but when you inspected closely that wasn't it. I tried to post a picture and ask before but the response was "thats not bleed through, she's a bicolor" but I think the breeder who answered thought I was talking about the tan on her feet! And never saw me clarify my question.


----------



## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> Frank is not a sable. He is either a "bright" bi color or a blanket black and tan.


Thanks, he's my first GSD so when people I knew that had GSD's said he looked Sable it really threw me off. What do you mean by "bright" bi color, he has all the penciling on his feet like I've seen people discribe on bi colors, but some say he has too much of the tan on his legs and others say he doesn't, I usually just say he's black and silver and I would love him if he was green and blue


----------



## KendraLovey (Jan 17, 2011)

This isnt the greatest picture, but it does show the auburn undercoat. He has some longish hair on his belly and around his neck. He has an auburn undercoat in most areas, a white dot on his chest, and a little tan on his lower legs and toes. Whould this be considered a bleed through too?

P.S. This was taken in the sunroom that was turned into the "dog" room


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

KendraLovey said:


> This isnt the greatest picture, but it does show the auburn undercoat. He has some longish hair on his belly and around his neck. He has an auburn undercoat in most areas, a white dot on his chest, and a little tan on his lower legs and toes. Whould this be considered a bleed through too?
> 
> P.S. This was taken in the sunroom that was turned into the "dog" room


I am not sure about the auburn undercoat or the white dot on his chest. The tan on his legs probably is bleed through. It sure sounds like it. These different colors bleeding through does seem common in the black shepherds as I am learning.


----------



## KendraLovey (Jan 17, 2011)

I love the red on him. In the sun he is simply beautiful Just wondered if there was some kind of technical name for it..LOL. This was a very educational thread....my favorite kind.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Franksmom said:


> Thanks, he's my first GSD so when people I knew that had GSD's said he looked Sable it really threw me off. What do you mean by "bright" bi color, he has all the penciling on his feet like I've seen people discribe on bi colors, but some say he has too much of the tan on his legs and others say he doesn't, I usually just say he's black and silver and I would love him if he was green and blue


 
Sorry! Rich bi color, not bright. This illustration will help.

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, COLOR & PIGMENT


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> He started getting grey when he was around 8 months old.
> 
> In the sunlight he has red on his belly.
> 
> He looks like a black GSD, but when you look hard you can see his other colors. I think he looks awesome. Jamie Lee will still look great no matter what colors pop up, if anymore even pop up.


 
The difference with Leyna is that she had tan toes when I got her at 8 weeks. She started getting more color at about 5 months. She has tan toes, legs, and vent. She has scattered tan on the front of her legs and feet. She actually looks like a bi color from a distance. I think she is amazingly beautiful.


----------



## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> The difference with Leyna is that she had tan toes when I got her at 8 weeks. She started getting more color at about 5 months. She has tan toes, legs, and vent. She has scattered tan on the front of her legs and feet. She actually looks like a bi color from a distance. I think she is amazingly beautiful.


It does make them look unique I think. Jamie's bleed through is more sable colored. You can only really see it in really bright light.


----------



## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

jaggirl47 said:


> Sorry! Rich bi color, not bright. This illustration will help.
> 
> Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, COLOR & PIGMENT


Thanks that does explain a lot and discribes alot of what Franks coat looks like


----------

