# Difference Between DDR and West German WL?



## ingsd (Mar 21, 2013)

So as the title implies...what is the difference between DDR and WGWL? I've always wondered this.


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## Charlie W (Feb 12, 2013)

During the dvision of Germany the West and East German breeding programmes were completely separate. The DDR GSD's were bred with an emphasis on breeding out hip dysplasia. However after German reunification 23 years ago the lines became mixed again and there isn't really a pure DDR line anymore, just dogs which have an ancestry that includes former DDR lines.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

lot of old threads on this if you are really interested.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the DDR dogs while under the curtain were bred for working, Law Enforcement, military, and herding.....I think they emphasized good hip as a necessary need for a good working dog.


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## ingsd (Mar 21, 2013)

So I know DDR is when west and east Germany split. Is DDR west? If so, what's the difference between the DDR and the WGWL? Or are they essentially the same thing?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

DDR is behind the wall. So East German. 


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## ingsd (Mar 21, 2013)

Wow. All of this is confusing me. What's Czech lines then? And what's the difference between DDR and WGWL? Ugh. I have to do some more research.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

research is good and the genuine student will have no problem finding info, i will add imo that these labels you speak of for the most part are nothing more in the contemporary era than marketting tools for the gullible as the lines are so mixed generally, even get czech dogs being registered as wg if that sells more this month etc.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

DDR is East German behind the wall. When Comminism ruled, these dogs protected the border. West German working lines were in west Germany. Democratic side. 

In the grand scheme of things, and what we see today... WGWL. are very high prey, flashy , happy and exuberant in the work. 

DDR, less prey, more serious, slower to mature. 

The lines are very mixed now. 




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## ingsd (Mar 21, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> DDR is East German behind the wall. When Comminism ruled, these dogs protected the border. West German working lines were in west Germany. Democratic side.
> 
> In the grand scheme of things, and what we see today... WGWL. are very high prey, flashy , happy and exuberant in the work.
> 
> ...



Okay so where does the Czech lines come into play?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> .... slower to mature.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
is that breeder code for dogs failing to progress at what the mainstream would consider a normal rate, or just an excuse for dogs failing period...just asking


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no the DDR was under the "eastern bloc" , communist control.
There are still a few old time breeders which are mentoring the next generation and producing an older style , and genetically an older style of "ddr" GSD. 

the Seidler family's von haus Iris , a favourite and important part of my own program Haus Iris

recent addition of C litter Parchimer Land Chiba vom Parchimer Land (Chiba being the dam of Nicholas , and Gus ) 
has been very interesting to say the least . Chiba and Como come from Parchimer Land East German Kennel . You should be able to find some good information on Werner and Michaels site.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To the untrained eye...there is no difference.

All good workers, all have their own personalities, all will do whatever you ask them to (if you go to a good breeder).

It's all about the pedigree and the dogs in the pedigree, doesn't matter where they came from in Europe.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

No, slower to mature is usually an assessment made about a dogs protection work....this is primarily because if a dogs primary fight drive is based in defense, and defense drives increase and strengthen with maturity....then it stands to reason that these dogs will develop slower in these areas until their maturity comes of full age. Many dogs today operate with high level of prey drive which is inherent in the dog at young age and is thus developed in protection work.....therefore the perception that these dogs mature slower. DDR dogs generally have higher levels of defense(suspicion) than is found in other lines.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Cliff, do you find that suspicion affects focus in obedience?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> do you find that suspicion affects focus in obedience


It does for my dog(Czech/WGx). 
To get him to lock eyes with me all the time during obedience isn't happening, he is too aware of his surroundings. The same goes for tracking, he isn't uber nose down searching out food, like some dogs...he is slow, methodical, thinking and not tunnel visioned on the track.

Though, IMO, I don't think he should have to constantly lock eyes with me during heeling...and I think it is smart to be observant. 
I know we'll get dinged for it when we trial.....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Daphne, it can depending on the suspicion level. Let me preface this by saying that the suspicion level of today's DDR dogs is much less than the dogs that came from the Eastern Bloc twenty-five years ago. So most DDR type dogs I see today have moderate suspicion, which is still more than many prey oriented dogs today that show very little suspicion. (Little secret: I often see more suspicion in WGSL dogs than I do some sport WL dogs).....now to your question Daphne.
I have found that prey dogs are easier to train through focus than dogs with higher suspicion levels. Again, there are different suspicion levels and different handler levels so this can vary, but dogs with higher suspicion levels are not as apt to give that full focus as easily, when distractions are involved in training. So, yes there can be a difference in focus, but a lot of other factors will impact that also.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Very interesting to read as this might be part of the reason my boy is so vigilant all the time. Although I have been able to get him to focus on me and look up at me while heeling (never really trained for it), he can't relax during down stays and sit stays. He's always looking around and always watching anything that moves.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

What Cliff said is so true! I remember in one Ivan seminar, he told me just to do obedience with my Czech male, young at that time. This was the first time for us to train with him and he wanted to assess my dog. As I was going through the pattern, Ivan was just casually getting cigarettes from his pocket. He immediately noticed that though my dog was focusing on me ok, he had one eye on him the whole time. My dog gave signals that no one else in the group noticed even though some were Nationals competitors. Ivan later worked my dog in protection and he gave him the best helper work the dog ever had or since because of the way he channeled the dog's high suspicion. My dog was the only one that was worked that way that day. All the other dogs in the seminar were WGWL or WGWL/Czech mixes. The man is a true genius with dogs.
One challenge with high suspicion dogs is that their nerves better be perfect. Otherwise, they can be overly sharp and quick to tap into aggression, but also have a fine line with avoidance. When the suspicion is perfectly balanced with nerve strength then they can be awesome, awesome dogs. The last Tom z PS a fine example.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Great thread! I've been wondering about this myself as my dog has WGWL and DDR in him.... This explains SO much and the training issues I'm having with him and trying to get him to focus. He is so aware and constantly monitoring our surroundings while I'm trying to train. Any good way to combat this? He loves to work, just focus is tough! Though he is only 8 months old.


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## ingsd (Mar 21, 2013)

So if DDR is east german, what is the difference between a DDR and a Czech dog? I've been trying to find these answers for the past couple of days.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DDR = East Germany (no longer exists)
Czech = Czech Republic (different country)


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ingsd said:


> So if DDR is east german, what is the difference between a DDR and a Czech dog? I've been trying to find these answers for the past couple of days.


Same deal as DDR to West German. Although Czechoslovakia was behind the Iron Curtain, it was very difficult to move between republics. Also, most people didn't have cars, so to find a way to another place and bring your dog along for breeding wasn't exactly easy. People also didn't really have the ability to learn about the most amazing dog here, or the most amazing dog there, so populations were much more localized.

Czech dogs are predominately from a few kennels that were used to breed dogs to patrol the border between the Czech Republic and the west. You can look up these kennels as their "lines" have kind of been released into the public in more recent times and some breeders (very hard to find) have tried to keep them separate. As it sits today, its almost impossible to find a 100% pure Czech dog as most have been mixed with the other lines in order to make a better all around dog.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

wow, Cliff's answers never cease to amaze me. I learn so much from threads like these!


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## Lena (Aug 23, 2013)

You can´t speak of DDR and WGD in general because there are so many lines and different types of dogs today in Germany.


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