# Do WGSL look roach backed when ot stacked?



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Not sure where to post this sorry.

But anyway, that is my question. How prominent is the roach back if they are just going Bout their lives vs.stacked for a photo?

I know some are more pronounced than others but....on one that clearly has that curve when posed, wonder how much you see it if the dog were just standing in their yard


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lol -- oh yes you can .

you can see the roach when they are lying down.
you can see the roach when they are sitting .
they don't "look" , they are . This is a structural fact
not an illusion created by stacking a dog.

the roach arch is inflexible .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah I see what you mean. I found a blog about a wgsl dog with lots of angles.

I have seen black and red shepherds that did not have it at all. The one who comes to mind first is out of the old rescue I used ti volunteer for. Lovely temperament, lovely coloring, *looks* like a dog from decent breeding....but no roach. I guess there are those out there who just don't really have it? Of course that dog is unknown and could be a fluke byb.

Does it cause them problems?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

of course there is an impact on movement

Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I was thinking more along the lines of arthritis or something when they are older. It doesn't look comfortable.

How strange that we get these ideas of a fashionable look....or I guess as I understand it this started so the dogs could trot long hours at shows....

Wait that makes me think of something:wasn't the GSD designed too be a "trotter" in its job herding, so shouldn't those earier dogs who were actually still working sheep had the best design for trotting all day?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

":wasn't the GSD designed too be a "trotter" in its job herding, so shouldn't those earier dogs who were actually still working sheep had the best design for trotting all day?"

BINGO


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

You can definitely find WGSLs who are bred to have moderate structure.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sebrench said:


> You can definitely find WGSLs who are bred to have moderate structure.


Maybe , probably, but are they the ones WINNING?

went to a show a while ago --- all WGSL's . They seemed to have placed in order of the most roached - the closest to "normal" was at the end.

The winners of the big SV events influence this faction of the breed.
They are either oblivious , or don't care .


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

sebrench said:


> You can definitely find WGSLs who are bred to have moderate structure.


Any breeder names come to mind? I am not dog shopping, just curious. Although I had considered wgsl at some point.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

carmspack said:


> Maybe , probably, but are they the ones WINNING?
> 
> went to a show a while ago --- all WGSL's . They seemed to have placed in order of the most roached - the closest to "normal" was at the end.
> 
> ...


I find this so bizarre....its almost like the emperor's new clothes....everyone blinded by being told in show wins that these extreme and odd bodies are desirable?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Whatever wins, sells. I happy to have a Collie and a GSD who don't stand a chance in a show as they were bred for function and temperament.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I feel totally qualified to join this conversation since I own one of these atrociously structured dogs!! I saw his strange back as a pup and when I asked the breeder, was told it would straighten out when he matured!! HA! On top of that, he has a terribly deformed rear and very little extension front and rear. When he runs or trots it is very hard to look at. Disappointing to say the least!

I have since then made it my passion to study and observe structure. WGSL= roach, ASL=hock draggers! So sad!

But thankfully there are still some decent ones in both lines. Too bad the judges continue to "put up" the bad ones! It's something I cannot understand


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Any breeder names come to mind? I am not dog shopping, just curious. Although I had considered wgsl at some point.


Well, I don't know if they are moderate enough to suit working-line folks, but I really like Yuliya's dogs (Von Lotta Kennels) in Atlanta. This is where I got Asher, so I'm more than a little biased. I admire her red-sable male, Netzer. I haven't seen him in person, but I did meet his mother, Jessy, when we visited to put a deposit down on a pup from the next available litter. 

German Shepherd Dog Stud Services - imported titled West German stud dogs of world-class quality

Asher has been great... healthy and stable. He has more drive than I was expecting. I'm sure I've said on other posts, my first GSD was from working lines (mostly Czech/East-German)--I could write paragraphs about how wonderful he was. I will always miss him. But he was not easy and probably wasn't the best pick for a first time GSD owner (I don't mean to imply that my experience with one dog is representative of all WLs). I chose WGSLs because I thought they would be a good middle ground, perhaps lacking the intensity of the working lines, while still having some drive and working ability. Anyway, I chose WGSL, not because of looks, but because I thought the temperament would fit in best with my needs and lifestyle. I don't notice Asher being particularly roached, but maybe I am just used to it. People have pulled their cars over to the side of the road while we're walking to admire him (which is kind of awkward, actually.)


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

no roach in Cassidy's Moms two TeMar dogs...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that some of the stacking does make it look worse than it is. 

These are WGSL dogs:

This is Lord out of Odessa and Herko, both German imports. Odessa is out of a double World Sieger, and the pup is line bred on both VA1 Pakros d'Ulmental 3-3, and VA1 Karma vom Oschentor 3-3 or 3-4. 



This is Odessa who is out of VA1 Vegas du Haut Mansard -- no roach, top German showlines. She was shown in Germany as a puppy and got SG3 at the sieger show, SG1 would have been the top rating she could have gotten -- two dogs were better than she: 


Mufasa has the same breeding as Lord.


Joy and the next dog, Woden are a Jenna/Gispo Puppies. Jenna has some American lines. her sire was all WGSL going back to VA1 Fanto vom Hirschel and the dam had the American Show lines crossed with WGSL. Gispo is out of VA1 Vegas and VA1 Xara vom Agilolfinger:





This last dog is Heidi, out of Arwen and Dubya. about 3/4 WGSL and 1/4 American Show Line -- no ski slopes, no roach:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

People mean different things when they call a back roached. When I was considering WGSLs people kept telling me the parent dogs I was looking at were too roached. But I did an angle check using a protractor (yeah, compulsive) and the angle was within normal range. WGSL are supposed to have a little curve at the rear for cushioning. They aren't supposed to be banana backed or down on their hocks like ASL can be in shows.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I find this so bizarre....its almost like the emperor's new clothes....everyone blinded by being told in show wins that these extreme and odd bodies are desirable?


Yes. They think what they are used to is good.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gretel is WGSL. She is out of Karma (Jenna/Gispo), and Mufasa(Odessa/Herko), She is 3-3 on Vegas, and linebred on Pakros, and has Xara is linebred on Karma in the 4th. These are top German showlines. Her owner sent me this photo today, and I am hoping to make it up to the show. 



I know there are a lot of disparaging remarks about the structure of show lines. But there are actually a lot of good dogs out there in these lines.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Selzer, she is beautiful.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Selzer that last dog is stunning. All good looking, actually although I don't think I could live with the coat on that male!! I think I like the look of the ones with a little asl, too.

Somehow I didn't realize yours were wgsl. Do you have a website for your dogs?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Gretel is WGSL. She is out of Karma (Jenna/Gispo), and Mufasa(Odessa/Herko), She is 3-3 on Vegas, and linebred on Pakros, and has Xara is linebred on Karma in the 4th. These are top German showlines. Her owner sent me this photo today, and I am hoping to make it up to the show.
> 
> 
> 
> I know there are a lot of disparaging remarks about the structure of show lines. But there are actually a lot of good dogs out there in these lines.


As evidenced by yours.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer that last dog is stunning. All good looking, actually although I don't think I could live with the coat on that male!! I think I like the look of the ones with a little asl, too.
> 
> Somehow I didn't realize yours were wgsl. Do you have a website for your dogs?


No. I don't have a website. I don't ship puppies, and I figure a website will have a lot of inquiries from far away, and I just don't. I only have 1-2 litters per year, and I really don't have trouble finding good owners. I think I have 7 owners who have multiple dogs of mine now, which is awesome too. I sometimes advertise, but sell more word of mouth. I am avoiding the whole website thing. I am anti-technology -- see enough of that in my job. Took me forever to agree to have a cell phone, and it is still one of those little folding jobbies with 9 keys, send and off. Ok, maybe a few other things, it can do, very slowly, but I don't use them. I even didn't want my folks to get a microwave, and I did all the cooking there. No website -- techniphobe.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

My WGSL's are not roach backed and are active ranch dogs, they go for miles on trails with my horses, having no problems keeping up, they have just as much energy as the working line my friend has, I personally love the structure of the WGSL dogs, I personally do not like a too level topline as those dogs do not have as much drive off the rear as the more sloping topline, the most beautiful moving dogs with the most ground covering, efficient trots have been my WGSL dogs by far, I had a female a few years ago that was just poetry in motion, she floated over the ground with a big sweeping ,effortless trot down the trail, people always remarked that she was the best moving dog they had ever seen. I tend to be the same with my horses, I like a sloping croup that is conducive to a big powerful engaged trot, or gait in my gaited horses, form to function, but you can have beauty too.  My Gavin is a beautiful mover, he can trot all day.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I am sorry to have to show you this .

Is there hope . I mean really? How discouraging . 

entry 27 , can't walk ! scrambled , disorganized -- uncordinated - paces , then does this little hop skip and shifts into something else

entry 26 , bad feet --- COLLAPSED pasterns , he stands and moves on his "wrist" -- he pops in and out of pace to jump to little feet flying scramble - and those feet are thrown ahead like flippers.

why wait to be stacked to show off that lovely roach --- look at the entire lineup as they come to the turn and can be seen side view ---


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this ain't no swedish mentality test -

what a nervous frantic dog -- relationship to owner --- what? where ? he runs to the owner but doesn't find him immediately ! lol -- he checks out the "strangers" practically has to be caught by the owner - moment he is free he is looking for that exit , thank goodness there is a good rail-barrier . 
The sound test with the elecric saw , I have a kitchen electric knife that makes more noise .

They keep saying calm . I am getting antsy seeing the hecticness of the dog - the un-attached , the un-calm. 




and here is the #27 I mentioned previously 




and everyone who came got an ausgepragt ?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I have no clue about these kind of shows. Can someone explain how it works?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Oh my goodness.That's just wrong.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I love how the owner leads him straight to the toy during the "find" around 14 mins and he still can't find the toy.

Looked like he had to out the dog with force every time?

I wish I could do this test with my dog because I can about guarantee you he'd blow that dog out of the water at all of that and he's "gasp" WHITE!!! :wink2:

Seriously though what is this test called?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Fodder said:


> no roach in Cassidy's Moms two TeMar dogs...


Ha, just now saw this! Here's an older pic of Keefer standing normally (he's 11 now :wub:










With his half sister Dena, who died at 4 years old of lymphoma 8 years ago today (she's in the foreground).


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Fodder said:
> 
> 
> > no roach in Cassidy's Moms two TeMar dogs...
> ...


Beautiful dogs!!!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

carmspack said:


> I am sorry to have to show you this .
> 
> Is there hope . I mean really? How discouraging .
> 
> ...


Wow. They would have to pay me to take one of those dogs. I would be embarrassed to walk down the street with it.

Susan


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

How in the world can they possibly justify these dogs when compared to the original breed standard???

Susan


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> I have no clue about these kind of shows. Can someone explain how it works?


I'm wondering the same thing. Carmen (or someone else with knowledge of this venue) would it be possible to share some info -

1. The qualifications/prerequisites that these dogs have, to be shown here? 

2. What specifically is at stake for the top animal(s) in this event?

3. What would be the ideal performance/protocol for a dog in this venue? On the other hand, what might DQ a dog?

Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to take the time to explain a bit, I did some Googling but between translation errors and some major transcrepancies, I'm not sure I'm looking at the right information.....


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> this ain't no swedish mentality test -
> 
> what a nervous frantic dog -- relationship to owner --- what? where ? he runs to the owner but doesn't find him immediately ! lol -- he checks out the "strangers" practically has to be caught by the owner - moment he is free he is looking for that exit , thank goodness there is a good rail-barrier .
> The sound test with the elecric saw , I have a kitchen electric knife that makes more noise .
> ...


He definitely looks hectic, but to me he looks like he knows someone at the gate and is distracted by them, either way not good, his attention should be with the handler.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

carmspack said:


> I am sorry to have to show you this .
> 
> Is there hope . I mean really? How discouraging .
> 
> ...


So is this a SV conformation show being held in Germany? If so, some of those dogs are no bueno. It's disheartening to see such an emphasis of form over function from the breed organization and country that gave us the GSD in the first place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nigel said:


> He definitely looks hectic, but to me he looks like he knows someone at the gate and is distracted by them, either way not good, his attention should be with the handler.


It looks like a temperament test. Not something you prepare for. Something you take a green dog out to, before any training. Some of these people are breeders, probably most of them, some have kennels of dogs, and that very well may be the first time the dog has been out and about. Of course he is looking around at everything. 

He isn't acting timid when asked to step on something weird. And he isn't acting weirded out by that teetering thing. He is looking at everything around and about, probably because he hasn't been out with his owner to 1000 places before he turned a year old. 

Actually, if I was training a dog for 4 months, and the focus of my training was to have the dog staring at my face when walking, then I would want the dog to have its focus totally on me. If I want a dog for any sort of security/protection, then I want a dog that is calm and alert, but not necessarily staring at my face. What's the use of that? 

What I do not see is the reactivity that so many dogs here in the states show, barking and lunging at every new thing, at people at other dogs. The dog is not crazy at being handled either. 

When you have a DA dog, or a people aggressive dog, you need to get that dog's focus on you all the time. If the dog is not DA or people aggressive, the dog doesn't need to be constantly focused on what you are commanding him to do. 

This really does not look like something you should prepare for. 

I think it is a typical kennel dog being given a temperament test to see if it makes sense to begin training for a BH, or maybe sell him to Americans or someone else.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

selzer said:


> It looks like a temperament test. Not something you prepare for. Something you take a green dog out to, before any training. Some of these people are breeders, probably most of them, some have kennels of dogs, and that very well may be the first time the dog has been out and about. Of course he is looking around at everything.
> 
> He isn't acting timid when asked to step on something weird. And he isn't acting weirded out by that teetering thing. He is looking at everything around and about, probably because he hasn't been out with his owner to 1000 places before he turned a year old.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, Selzer! Wonder if that WAS the purpose?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

point by point --- "It looks like a temperament test. Not something you prepare for. Something you take a green dog out to, before any training."

this dog looks too old to be green -- not saying he is old , just past the age of no experience and no input
he knows the prey drive games -- a life spent running circles 
even a green dog can be calm -- should be calm 

this isn't necessary "he hasn't been out with his owner to 1000 places before he turned a year old"
that is actually for the benefit of the owner observing the dog rather than the dog getting conditioned

point two "Actually, if I was training a dog for 4 months, and the focus of my training was to have the dog staring at my face when walking, then I would want the dog to have its focus totally on me. If I want a dog for any sort of security/protection, then I want a dog that is calm and alert, but not necessarily staring at my face. What's the use of that? "

who said the dog had to have attentive heeling and artificial keen eye to eye focus ? Does anyone know what a dog behaves like off lead (or on) but connected to the owner . He is not calm and alert . Background music? Flight of the bumble bees.

Remember working breed. I wouldn't want to work this dog - I can imagine mega effort . No focus .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He does know the tug, toy thing. He also looks very young. He looks like a pet -- not a working dog, at his first show and more interested in everything going on around him than his owner/handler. Is it possible that the guy handling him in the ring, has only known him for a week-end? And, yeah, he could have his owner in the crowd, watching. The dog really doesn't have what I look for in a dog either, which doesn't mean he can't be a good pet.


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