# Submissive GSD Puppy



## Legion (Apr 2, 2012)

We brought Sienna home at about 12 weeks of age, she is now about 17 weeks. She was one of two females in a litter of nine. The first thing I noticed about her is how submissive she is all of the time with adults. She always approaches with her ears laid back, submissive pees a little but not all of the time, and she lies against your leg to the point if you move she wold flop over on the floor. She comes when called, no hesitation really, but about half way there she drops her ears.

I have been careful not to show any dominant tendencies toward her. I dont stand over her, I get on the floor with her, I pat her chest instead of her head when I can. House training is almost done. She goes days without accidents now, but I dont fully trust her yet. The only corrections she has had are the loud sharp "No!". It works everytime. This is not an abused dog.

I am not looking for a K9 protection dog. But i do want her to be protective of house, family etc, to be a confident GSD and take a wary interest in strangers and not approach them tail wagging with her ears back. Barking at a doorbell would be nice. I have never heard this puppy bark.


So any ideas or suggestions? Am I expecting two much of her too soon? Is she wired this way and a lost cause? Not that I would give her up....I look forward to an 80 lb lap dog.


**Thank you to the mystery mod who moved this thread. Apologies.


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## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

I will trade you my dominant, hyper spazzy girl for your sweet submissive one!  Just enjoy it...coming from someone on the opposite side of the spectrum - lol  I do look forward to reading suggestions from others though and can tell you just want to increase her confidence which is wonderful.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

At this age showing appropriate submission to you and other adults is not necessarily a reflection of her self-confidence, or lack of. If she is confident in everyday life, showing curiosity about new things, experiences and situations, and not running away from them, I wouldn't worry. Her submissive approach is quite appropriate for a 17 month old, and that she comes willingly and happily, and approaches others the same, is an excellent sign. Submissive peeing is common in softer dogs, and they usually grow out of it. A soft dog is not necessarily a weak or un-confident dog, so just wait it out. 

I do Protection training with my GSD, and there is some serious defense in him - when the trainer pushes and pressures him, he pushes back harder with more power, but in everyday life, he still approaches people with ears back and tail wagging, just communicating to non-threatening friendly people (which is just most about everyone, anyways) that he wants to be friends. 

GSDs are slow to mature - protectiveness comes out when they are adults, between 1 and 3 years of age. Alert barking often comes sooner, but again, it may be a few months before that develops too. Right now, in her mind, you guys are the protectors and and she does not react to things like the doorbell, because she is confident that you can deal with whatever it is, and that is how a puppy SHOULD be. Let her grow up without the stress of constant fear and worry, and when a mature adult, she will fall into her role. 

Protectiveness is genetic, so she may be protective, or not. Let her grow up, and let her develop into what mother nature intended for her. Protective or not, having a GSD by your side and having a dog in the house that will alert bark is more than enough to keep bad guys away in most cases, anyways.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Legion said:


> Am I expecting two much of her too soon?


Probably. She's just a baby. I've known a lot of dogs who were submissive as puppies, that grew up to be confident adults. Don't make a big deal over it--submission is actually a pro-social behavior, as opposed to shyness and fearfulness. Socialize her lots, play with her lots, play tug-of-war and let her win. Use positive training methods, clicker training is great. If there are puppy socialization classes in your area, sign her up!

Where did you get your pup and what is her pedigree? 

I have a bratty puppy, and sometimes I long for a sweet submissive one! Enjoy her!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

GSDs do have different personality types. Some are sharp and serious...others are just big goofy dummies. She might develop protective tendencies later on, or she might not. You can boost her confidence by letting her win at games and socializing her well. She is still _so_ young that you can't really expect a lot of defensive behavior for a puppy. 

My female is a very sweet girl that loves people. She has incredible prey drive and will go after a ball like a banshee. She will ask for belly rubs, lean on you and snuggle. My male, on the other hand, has the classic aloof/calculating expression when he meets people. He will guard, bark and works out of defense. I would never expect my female to develop his instincts because that is not her makeup. So don't force any premature expectations on the little pup. Let her develop into the best version of herself that she can be.


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## Legion (Apr 2, 2012)

Thank you all for input.

I will continue to let her grow and develop. I know she is a baby still, I just wanted to know if there were things I could do to help shape her. Doing all of things suggested already, so will just continue down that road.

As for her pedigree, not sure I know how to answer that question. She isnt a $5000 puppy. She has East German lines I am told. Both parents registered. All the medical stuff checked out (which was all I was concerned about really).

Thanks again. Back to the house training, we had an accident last night.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Don't "baby" her. Don't go heavy-handed or all shouting, but ignore the total submission (don't reward it by petting her for instance). 
Praise her when she's up, tail up and wagging, ears up, and get her to play, etc.

Dogs like this often aren't sure what's expected of them so the sooner you can teach a good reliable "sit" the better. Have her excited and looking at you, give the sit, and praise, but if she slides down into submission, ignore that part, (using a leash) get her back to her feet and praise her for a "sit".


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> Her submissive approach is quite appropriate for a 17 *month* old,


Whoopsie - meant to say 17 _week_ old, but I'm sure you all knew that.


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## Belle86 (Apr 6, 2012)

Whatever tips you find out let me know! We have a 9 month old white GSD and she has been a habitual submissive peer since she was about 4 months old. It's REALLY bad. She will pee like crazy anytime someone comes over, she will pee if she knows she's done something wrong.. she will pee and run leaving a trail behind her, she will pee on the bed if she's on the bed and you say something too sharply to her, she has gotten up on the couch and peed after being reprimanded for peeing.. she will pee when her leash is being put on her to go outside.. I know alot of this will be fixed when we get a fence up because the main thing she does is pee when you are putting her leash on to go outside and that is EXTREMELY frustrating because you tell her "NO" loudly and it just makes her pee more.. do I just ignore it while she is doing it while I put a leash on her? I'm so out of ideas so if any other ideas pop up let me know! That is really her only qualm besides the chewing. She will chew EVERYTHING she has chewed up boots, the side of the couch, 4 library books, some of my daughter's books ,my daughter's shoes, my daughters toys... anything she can find. She has some toys and a ball she likes to throw and chase herself.. I'm kind of scared to take her to a training class because I am afraid she'll pee everywhere and be hard to control and bark and chase after other dogs.. completely embarassing. Looking forward to reading more replies as I'm interested in hearing tips and advice too!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Belle86

It would be a good idea to start a new thread of your own. You may get more help. Just copy and paste. 

Have you taken your dog to the vet and had her thoroughly checked out - full blood checks, including full thyroids panel etc. She sounds like a nervous wreck. Has she been spayed, because there could be a problem that's resulted from the operation.

Sue


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Belle86, go see a vet and put her on some meds to control her urination. Then go get a behaviorist and work on her submissive urination issues. If the behavior modification works, you can slowly taper off the meds later. But this needs to be controlled now.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Legion said:


> We brought Sienna home at about 12 weeks of age, she is now about 17 weeks. She was one of two females in a litter of nine. The first thing I noticed about her is how submissive she is all of the time with adults. She always approaches with her ears laid back, submissive pees a little but not all of the time, and she lies against your leg to the point if you move she wold flop over on the floor. She comes when called, no hesitation really, but about half way there she drops her ears.
> 
> I have been careful not to show any dominant tendencies toward her. I dont stand over her, I get on the floor with her, I pat her chest instead of her head when I can. House training is almost done. She goes days without accidents now, but I dont fully trust her yet. The only corrections she has had are the loud sharp "No!". It works everytime. This is not an abused dog.
> 
> ...


Our first Shepherd we got a 8 weeks she submissively peed for a while but eventually outgrew it and became an 80 lb lap dog and protector. If I could ever find another one like her I would take her in a heartbeat. She became my husbands heart dog. Followed him everywhere. When I say outgrew it don't expect soon. When my husband came home from work she was just so excited we had to let her out the door to meet him for the first year or so.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What you are seeing is a result of scolding her for peeing.
Puppies are telling you in puppy language, when they pee, "I'm sorry I did (whatever), please forgive me" and you then scold them again, now for peeing, and it becomes a lifelong problem. 
The ONLY way to handle submissive peeing is to ignore it completely. It would have gone away months ago if it had been ignored.
You also have a "soft" dog, one who cannot tolerate corrections of any sort beyond a "Uh oh!" and thus you've got a vicious circle going on.
I cannot help you with this dog, only you can help yourself, and save her if at all possible at this point.

Please read through these links - stop doing what you are doing because obviously it is not working and now you have to try to mend what is left of your relationship. If this cannot be done, please consider giving her to a rescue or other agency willing to help her with this problem.

FWIW, we adopted a 6yr. old Dachshund who submissively pee'ed until his dying day at age 10 because he was scolded similarly to your girl, so this will not go away with the methods you are using now. It makes me sick to my stomach to think you're doing this to your girl, because I've seen firsthand and dealt with dogs who are adults who still submissively wet because of how their owners handled - or more correctly, mishandled - their submissive urination as puppies. The only reason your girl is still doing this is because you're scolding and yelling at her while she's doing it. It would be like telling a child who is very repentant for doing something wrong, "*You IDIOT, get to your room*!!!!" and/or backhanding same child. Just isn't helping and in fact hurting the situation. 

Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Submissive Urination





Belle86 said:


> Whatever tips you find out let me know! We have a 9 month old white GSD and she has been a habitual submissive peer since she was about 4 months old. It's REALLY bad. She will pee like crazy anytime someone comes over, she will pee if she knows she's done something wrong.. she will pee and run leaving a trail behind her, *she will pee on the bed if she's on the bed and you say something too sharply to her, she has gotten up on the couch and peed after being reprimanded for peeing.*. she will pee when her leash is being put on her to go outside.. I know alot of this will be fixed when we get a fence up because the main thing she does is pee when you are putting her leash on to go outside and *that is EXTREMELY frustrating because you tell her "NO" loudly and it just makes her pee more.*. do I just ignore it while she is doing it while I put a leash on her? I'm so out of ideas so if any other ideas pop up let me know! That is really her only qualm besides the chewing. She will chew EVERYTHING she has chewed up boots, the side of the couch, 4 library books, some of my daughter's books ,my daughter's shoes, my daughters toys... anything she can find. She has some toys and a ball she likes to throw and chase herself.. I'm kind of scared to take her to a training class because I am afraid she'll pee everywhere and be hard to control and bark and chase after other dogs.. completely embarassing. Looking forward to reading more replies as I'm interested in hearing tips and advice too!



PS. Crate her when not supervised, pick up things that she may chew (this is not her fault stuff is left out) and also *GET TO THAT TRAINING CLASS*! They've seen submissive peeing, they won't be shocked.
The fact you are embarrassed by your dog and don't want to take her places for fear she'll embarrass you worse speaks volumes.
You should have learned to properly communicate with her months ago. Let's hope it is not too late now.
You need to teach her things, not scold her constantly - her confidence has been severely undermined and it's up to you to try to rebuild it.

When you're there at the class, all embarrassed because she's piddled somewhere, keep telling yourself you created this problem, now you're going to fix it. Don't sit around and wonder about those classes, call today and get registered and start *NOW.*


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

To the OP, at 17 weeks your pup is still a baby but starting to look like a dog. It is possible that she won't bark for a couple more months. Abby didn't bark until 6 months and we were shocked at the size of her bark, since then she has been great at alerting us to approaching people. At 17 weeks she should be house trained 100%. GSDs are smart and you should be able to house train them by 3 months with little effort. The best way is to catch them at it, say NO and IMMEDIATELY get them outside to 'finish' with a ton of praise. There can be no delay between catching them at it and getting outside. You can clean up later. Also give her frequent opportunities to 'perform' for you during the day.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Titan is 2 years. He was and still is very very submissive to people and even a lot of dogs too. He just doesn't care. When it comes to other dogs mostly he could care less.. "fine if you want to be dominant whatever, lets just play." There is only a couple things that will piss him off that other dogs do but it's rare. When he was a puppy I thought, oh great, I bought a GSD partially as an alert/protection dog for me. Not to train it in him but just wanted a confident dog since I was a single female living in a foreign country at the time I bought him. He displayed the same behaviors yours does right now. To this day he still comes up to me with his ears down and rarely ever make eye contact unless I direct it as a command (mine is "Titan, eyes" when I want his attention.) He does the same when all my _friends_ come over. He just knows his role as a dog in my household, humans are higher than he... that being said.. God bless your soul if you try and come into my house or on my property without mommy saying so or proper introduction... He knows the difference. Yours will too.. it's natural for them. You'll see. One day someone's going to knock on the door or she will see someone through the window and go bonkers and you will have no idea where that came from. She's being a puppy right now.. just enjoying the safety of her home and humans. My other pup in the house is NOT submissive at all at 6 months and she is/will be a handful if I don't get it under wraps quick.. which is why we are in training. Enjoy the puppy stages of your girl it's normal!


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm a new GSD owner and my puppy is also very submissive with people and dogs, the whole ears back, leaning, belly up, licks. She didn't bark at people coming to the house for weeks and will even sleep thru it. I thought I'm going to have to be the one protecting her when she sleeps. But since she just turned 4.5 months, she started to do little barks at people walking by the front of the house. She's gotten more protective over time and becoming more alert on walks and especially wary of people I don't strike up conversations with. The mail man no longer comes thru the front gate but leaves packages by the gate because she'd approach the gate and bark her big girl bark. She'll cease barking if she sees me approaching or talking to people approaching the house. My adult pekingese is starting to retire now that he sees the GSD taking over his job. They take turns even. =) Based on my ONE experience (disclaimer), Sienna may just need more time to grow into it.


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## CMeredith (Jan 28, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> What you are seeing is a result of scolding her for peeing.
> Puppies are telling you in puppy language, when they pee, "I'm sorry I did (whatever), please forgive me" and you then scold them again, now for peeing, and it becomes a lifelong problem.
> The ONLY way to handle submissive peeing is to ignore it completely. It would have gone away months ago if it had been ignored.
> You also have a "soft" dog, one who cannot tolerate corrections of any sort beyond a "Uh oh!" and thus you've got a vicious circle going on.
> ...


 
I'm sorry, but the tone of this response is just completely out of line. Unfortunately I've seen it time and time again on this forum. Some person unaccustomed to the culture here comes in seeking help and gets immediately thrashed up one side and down the other because they say all the wrong things by standards of this community. There are many people who grow up with fundamentally different approaches to adopting and raising dogs and don't even know when they're stepping on land mines here. Did all of you with your 10,000+ posts always have what you now consider a responsible approach to raising dogs? Or was there a time when you dared to buy a dog from a back yard breeder, feed Alpo and give corrections that were probably too harsh or inappropriate in retrospect? I suspect that many here did because our parents raised dogs that way (or worse!). But somewhere along the way (perhaps on an internet forum), you got exposed to a different view and changed your approach. And now you adopt responsibly, care for your dogs responsibly and train responsibly (and by "responsibly" I mean by the standards overwhelmingly represented on this forum).

Do you really think Belle86 will be back? I wouldn't be if I was her. You had an incredible opportunity to help an owner who needed help and begin to inculcate her into the culture of this forum and you blew it. Honestly, it's the people most backward (and I don't think she's that backward) that you should be most trying to help. If someone comes here without attitude legitimately seeking help, maybe you could actually try offering help as opposed to telling them how they're actions are "making you sick to your stomach". In fairness, to msvette2u, you did offer some excellent advise as well but it was completely lost in your attack.

Of course this is not an isolated incident and isn't unique to this one response. It's rampant on this forum. I don't post very often but I've been lurking for many months and it makes ME sick to my stomach every time I see a veteran here run off some person who innocently stumbles into this forum seeking advise but is clearly outside of the culture represented here. I like this forum and agree with the general approach represented by the members here, but I really hate the attacks on outsiders (and by outsider I mean those who come here from a different dog raising culture). Belle86 displayed no attitude and was simply guilty of corrections that weren't appropriate to the situation. She's not the devil and doesn't deserve that kind of "help".

For the veterans practicing these kinds of attacks, what is the purpose? Does it just make you feel good? If you're here to actually help owners and their dogs, this kind of tone and culture does just the opposite for those who often need the most help.

By the way, my apologies to the OP for getting off track.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> For the veterans practicing these kinds of attacks, what is the purpose? Does it just make you feel good?


I'm curious why you joined if it makes you "sick to your stomach"??

Either way, no I don't "feel good". I feel very sad and angry that someone waited 6mos. to finally get "help" in the form of an internet forum (which is better than no help but still...) and their dog is a nervous wreck over it all and probably scarred for life.
And who knows? Maybe this person came back, read it, realized their mistakes, and got to the training classes?
How can you say, without a crystal ball, that didn't happen? :thinking:


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## CMeredith (Jan 28, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I'm curious why you joined if it makes you "sick to your stomach"??
> 
> Either way, no I don't "feel good". I feel very sad and angry that someone waited 6mos. to finally get "help" in the form of an internet forum (which is better than no help but still...) and their dog is a nervous wreck over it all and probably scarred for life.
> And who knows? Maybe this person came back, read it, realized their mistakes, and got to the training classes?
> How can you say, without a crystal ball, that didn't happen? :thinking:


 
I'm here because this is still the best German Shepherd forum on the internet. There's so much great information here but it gets muddied by senseless attacks. I usually just read and search because the environment here can be so toxic at times. This was just the second thread in a row in which I read something like this and had to say something.

You gave some great advice to her. Subtract the emotional reaction from it and it was very helpful and has the potential to keep her coming back for more. You're right, in that she might have come back, read your comments and gone to training. But, more likely she left stinging from the attack and the next time she has an issue, she probably won't come back here. It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that kind of approach isn't conducive to helping people. You don't scold a dog who doesn't know the "right" way to act. You TEACH with care and concern. Why is it that we treat each other in ways that we wouldn't treat our dogs?

I understand that we all get very emotional about how animals are treated but you can't push people away just because they made mistakes if they're looking for help in how to better handle them in the future.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

CMeredith said:


> I'm here because this is still the best German Shepherd forum on the internet.


Hm. And yet in another thread, you say ---



> *Good boards *don't allow ridiculous behavior. *I wish this was one of them.* In fact, a good board would issue me a private moderator warning for this kind of response. But I know it won't happen here - that's too bad.


And I find it highly ironic you're over here just twisting your knickers all up about me being rude, when your "tone" is at least half as "attacking" as my post was! 

Takes all kinds, I guess


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

'CMeredith' rhymes with the 'forum police' LOL


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSD07 said:


> 'CMeredith' rhymes with the 'forum police' LOL


:thumbup:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This thread has unfortunately turned into personal bickering and attacks between two members so it is being locked. I apologize to the OP for having to do this as you and the other people had very legitimate questions that deserved helpful and not rude responses. 

ADMIN Lisa


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