# Alternating kibble with raw?



## missmychance (Jan 20, 2011)

I want to try raw but am so nervous about it. Can you feed raw a few days a week and kibble on other days without any problems?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What makes you nervous about feeding raw? Is it that you fear you may not be giving a balance of nutrition(that was my concern when I changed to raw)
You could rotate, but maybe expect some digestive upset. 
When I transitioned my dogs, I did it cold turkey, then after a week or two started giving them a kibble meal (TOTW fish based) topped with canned jack mackarel. They never had runny poo or problems except for the very first day or two of the transition. Kibble didn't upset the balance, but my dogs don't have sensitive digestive tracts. I haven't fed kibble for 3 years and the dogs are thriving on raw.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

The one problem you may encounter is that your dogs might REFUSE the kibble after getting a taste of raw. 

Otherwise, there's no reason you can't feed a dog raw one day and kibble the next.


----------



## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

missmychance said:


> I want to try raw but am so nervous about it. Can you feed raw a few days a week and kibble on other days without any problems?


Yes. You could even feed one raw meal and one kibble meal in a day, assuming like said, that it does not cause digestive problems. It never has with our two dogs, we have done raw and kibble on and off for 4 years.

They are chow hounds and never refuse the kibble/ raw whatever it may be.

You will just have to see how it works for your dog!


----------



## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

I'll immediately be discounted by the majority of the board, but my own experience and research would point towards, just go all the way and feed raw.

If you're alternating days? Shouldn't be an issue. 

If you're feeding twice a day, one raw and one kibble? Well, I've get a $600 vet bill and some basic chemistry that says it isn't a great idea.


----------



## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

SchDDR said:


> .
> 
> If you're feeding twice a day, one raw and one kibble? Well, I've get a $600 vet bill and some basic chemistry that says it isn't a great idea.


Sorry to hear that  What happened? Hope your dog is ok.

Like I said I have done it with no problem but would obviously like to know if some basic chemistry could explain why you should not feed kibble and raw. Thanks in advance! Would love to see any research as well.

RAW is optimal. yes


----------



## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

After some IV fluids, a course of antibiotics, fasting followed by a bland diet, she was fine. Being as stoic as she is, it wasn't until she began projective vomiting that we realized anything was wrong. She'd had no diarrhea or other stool abnormalities to indicate a problem, aside from some slightly soft stool earlier in the day, which was attributed to stress, as we'd just introduced a new degree of defense to her bitework.

This dog, by virtue of her personality, has a tendency to appear "fine", until she collapses. Oh, the joy of thick-headed dog. Another dog may have displayed signs of distress earlier [diarrhea, food refusal, etc], and been placed on a bland diet and possibly recovered without the necessity of veterinary intervention. Because she was likely sick a day or two before we realized it, we exacerbated the problem by continuing to mix kibble and raw, until she had severe bacteriosis and colitis. 

The particularly unpleasant aspect of such sudden onset was the possibility that a bowel obstruction, or bloat, could also be the cause, necessitating x-rays, and extensive blood work for poisoning. Most dogs will have a much slower onset of illness with bacteriosis and colitis, and will not go from being perfectly healthy to projectile vomiting, disorientation and weakness.

Basically, kibble, by virtue of being both dried and loaded with carbohydrates [regardless of whether the binder is grain or non-grain like potato], change the rate of digestion, and the pH of the dog's stomach.

Many dogs will have no issues, because unless a threatening bacteria enters the dog's digestive system, there is no serious concern. However, should the raw meat contain a bacteria like salmonella, and the dog recently have been fed kibble, the dog potentially has no natural defenses with which to defeat the bacteria.

A strictly raw fed dog will not be bothered by the presence of these bacteria [and humans generally cook their own food before eating it] because the pH of the dog's stomach kills the majority of bacteria, and any remaining bacteria does not remain in the dog long enough to colonize. 

We have issues when we encounter things like e coli and salmonella because, being omnivores who consume a diet high in carbohydrates, we have digestive systems geared towards the digestion of those carbohydrates. 

This is also why we see kibble-fed dogs become ill when fed salmonella-tainted kibble, whereas I've yet to hear of a healthy dog, fed a proper, strictly raw diet, being sickened by salmonella.

This is also why the few anecdotal cases that most veterinarians trot out to argue against raw feeding, generally involve dogs that were actually fed raw as a supplement to kibble.

Whether or not a dog suffers from the combination of raw and kibble will depend entirely upon whether or not the dog ingests a harmful bacteria. Because raw feeders typically feed food intended for human consumption, most food is generally free of bacteria. 

By the same mechanism, because most of the foods fed are intended for human consumption, tainted food sometimes slips through the food supply, because the overwhelming majority of it is cooked before consumption, and any present bacteria destroyed, leading to no recall of the meat.


----------



## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I have a question regarding kibble and raw and instead of starting a new thread I thought I'd add it to this one. Hope you don't mind.

I know how to determine how much raw to feed and I use the BARF percentages for mm,rmb & om. However, I would like to know if I feed kibble and raw...how can I determine how much of each to feed. Lauri gave me a formula on this last summer but I cannot find it in the many raw threads in the BARF section. Can anyone help?


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

SchDDR said:


> After some IV fluids, a course of antibiotics, fasting followed by a bland diet, she was fine. Being as stoic as she is, it wasn't until she began projective vomiting that we realized anything was wrong. She'd had no diarrhea or other stool abnormalities to indicate a problem, aside from some slightly soft stool earlier in the day, which was attributed to stress, as we'd just introduced a new degree of defense to her bitework.
> 
> This dog, by virtue of her personality, has a tendency to appear "fine", until she collapses. Oh, the joy of thick-headed dog. Another dog may have displayed signs of distress earlier [diarrhea, food refusal, etc], and been placed on a bland diet and possibly recovered without the necessity of veterinary intervention. Because she was likely sick a day or two before we realized it, we exacerbated the problem by continuing to mix kibble and raw, until she had severe bacteriosis and colitis.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, very interesting. I have been feeding Max kibble in the am and raw in the pm. Mostly because I have been feeding only chicken thighs, ground turkey/beef some liver and some beef heart. I am finding it hard to locate other meats even tho we have a butcher here. No great deals! So I did not want to go all the way to raw yet since I feel I am not able to give him a good variety. But after reading this I am kinda worried now.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Don't worry about this. There is no way to say what happened to SchDDR's dog had anything to do with feeding kibble and raw; the fact that there are a ton of dogs out there eating both in the same meal pretty much discount it. The dog was sick and that's awful, but no way to say what from.

I used to work at the vet school and, yes, dogs fed a so called correct raw diet, can and do get campi, salmonella, and e-coli, just like kibble dogs. As these are commonly found in the environment and you have no way to say if the dog that got sick didn't have some sort of problem beforehand that made him more susceptible, there is no way to blame the way the dog was fed.


----------



## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Both of my dogs eat kibble and raw. Never had a problem!


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mac's Mom said:


> I have a question regarding kibble and raw and instead of starting a new thread I thought I'd add it to this one. Hope you don't mind.
> 
> I know how to determine how much raw to feed and I use the BARF percentages for mm,rmb & om. However, I would like to know if I feed kibble and raw...how can I determine how much of each to feed. Lauri gave me a formula on this last summer but I cannot find it in the many raw threads in the BARF section. Can anyone help?


You simply calculate how much you would feed if you feed 100% raw and take half that amount. Then you take half the recommended kibble amount and there you go!


----------



## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> You simply calculate how much you would feed if you feed 100% raw and take half that amount. Then you take half the recommended kibble amount and there you go!


thanks again!


----------



## Puppy (Jan 31, 2011)

Oh now I'm scared to give kibble as treats.. I am planning on putting Iron on a raw diet, and use a high quality kibble only durring training sessions...... I allways did food combining diet for myself. I totally feel a diffrence. It makes sience what Schddr wrote, but what about hot dogs, cook 100%meat treats, cheese, and stuff?


----------



## DeeMcB (Nov 28, 2010)

Lauri, 

If someone wanted to feed raw one day and kibble the next (assuming 1 meal a day) would you say to use the raw guideline (2-3% of ideal body weight) on the raw days and whatever the kibble guideline is on kibble days? Someone asked me that recently and I wasn't sure.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

DeeMcB said:


> Lauri,
> 
> If someone wanted to feed raw one day and kibble the next (assuming 1 meal a day) would you say to use the raw guideline (2-3% of ideal body weight) on the raw days and whatever the kibble guideline is on kibble days? Someone asked me that recently and I wasn't sure.


Sure!! I would warn them that their dog might refuse to eat the kibble after having tasted raw.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Puppy said:


> Oh now I'm scared to give kibble as treats.. I am planning on putting Iron on a raw diet, and use a high quality kibble only durring training sessions...... I allways did food combining diet for myself. I totally feel a diffrence. It makes sience what Schddr wrote, but what about hot dogs, cook 100%meat treats, cheese, and stuff?


My dogs are 100% raw fed and I use either the cheapest dry dog biscuits I can find or cat kibble (Wellness) as training treats.

If I try to use hot dogs or cheese I end up eating it instead of giving it to the dogs! 

Been doing it that way for over a decade and never had a problem.


----------

