# Bomber vom Wolfsheim, grip?



## la_nausee

Like a crocodile 

Bomber is located about an hour north of me. I got to work him two different weekends. My club has a few crushing dogs (Kallimero vom Ebsdorfergrun son, Javir Talka Marda son, Bomber son). What do I mean by crushing? When I can feel significant pressure on my forearm wearing a sleeve like an old schweikert 83 or Gappay's trial sleeve. Well, if you can just take dogs that crush, Bomber crushes harder! Likely due to his massive head/jaw structure. The video is just a short clip. From what I can assess, he has very balanced drives (not over the top), strong nerves, extreme grip, and massive bone and structure. I always questioned his lack of presence in top competition. Well, unless you have the competition bug, you don't waste time training for top competition when you have a dog like him I suppose. You breed him 24/7 in Germany for 6 years and sell him for 50k to some guy in MO.  If you have a nice titled female to breed, Bomber is certainly worth checking out. Now to find out about Gary's Drago von Patriot! My hats off to people bringing in these special dogs.






Photo by Joanne Letcher:


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## TrickyShepherd

He's very handsome! We have a few dogs at training that are out of Bomber. Nice dogs.


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## ponyfarm

I am so confused by this thread..


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## onyx'girl

la nausee, are you rxgolf on another board?


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## la_nausee

I don't think so. I don't golf for sure.


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## mycobraracr

Are there any other videos of him?


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## lhczth

Some that are available on mobile? This one isn't.


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## onyx'girl

here is one from '09
Bomber vom Wolfsheim Video - reiner11 - MyVideo

http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs-details/38773/Bomber-vom-Wolfsheim/98131837311dnhmi#show


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## Klamari

Handsome boy! His brother, Bandit, is sable and a looker too (no prejudice there or anything )


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## GSDElsa

lol, little advertising here? Thread sure sounds familiar..............I think those B brothers are in enough pedigrees to go around.


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## onyx'girl

Klamari said:


> Handsome boy! His brother, Bandit, is sable and a looker too (no prejudice there or anything )


LOL! I like how the K's are turning out. Though Della and the handlers are a big part of the results.


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## la_nausee

GSDElsa said:


> lol, little advertising here? Thread sure sounds familiar..............I think those B brothers are in enough pedigrees to go around.


Hi, can you explain B brothers? What is it that you like about them? What is enough pedigrees to go around and do what? How does Bandit grip compare to Bomber? What about comparison of drives? Anyone actually work them? Would really love to know. If it weren't for Bomber's grip which is extreme, I don't know how I could remember him. Second, Bomber is good but he isn't the best. When it comes to drives and grips show me a better one than Pike del Lupo Nero currently out there


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## la_nausee

oh no! Am I running the risk of advertising Pike too?! There has to be more people like me, with no vested interest other than to work a top or supposed top dog, and share the experience???


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## wolfstraum

Pike/Nox/Nick del Lupo Nero are not getting the plain old PR/internet chatter that the B Wolfsheim dogs are getting....Nox is the sire of Drago Patriot....I had a Nick litter that is awesome, 14 months old...friend of mine who has been breeding forever bred to Nick and called me to tell me how impressed he is with the litter...For 'grip' - a helper I was talking to a few weeks ago said that the top dogs in the US are Chuck Dorneberger Bach and Irmus Galan Nalag and Figo Fuchsgraben....

Is Bomber able to cap well now???? Is he correct in secondary obedience and biddable?

Lee


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## la_nausee

I haven't read one single meaningful internet chatter covering the B Wolfsheim. Most are something along the lines of "I have XYZ" out of this or that and "XYZ is awesome!" It's nice to hear, but isn't meaningful.

Can you explain cap? What is it that he needs to cap well? What do you mean by secondary obedience and biddable? Can you give examples? I'd love to take part in the discussion, I just want to understand what you mean.


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## la_nausee

Nick, although the same exact pedigree as Pike, isn't near Pike in drive, intensity, and performance. Unless you can tell me Nick's whole body trembles while salivating to no end in order to meet his drive goal?


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## wolfstraum

I knew someone who watched Bomber train more than a few times in Germany - when he was Sch1 to Sch2....I was told he was hard to control, leaked drive and vocalized constantly - overloaded and could not 'cap' or think clearly....he may have matured and become more controllable...this was when he was 

secondary obedience, ie, correct basic position, correct position in front, no forging in heeling....while doing protection....

Frankly - a dog who salivates in drive and who is over the top doesn't sound all that desirable to me....I don't like dogs who don't settle, who have to live in a kennel 24/7....the genetics are there in Nox and Nick to produce more than enough drive....Nick has won a couple of National events...and has super temperament

Lee


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## la_nausee

if you want to talk about capping, then it seems that you have to talk about the trainer. For example, you mentioned Irmus Galan Nalag. Do you think you can control excess drive that comes from Irmus? Raiser will describe drive as a force innate in the dog moving in one direction. A line moving one direction, and we ought to press or keep a dog's drive in the functional spectrum. We do that by introducing an opposing force. Physics shows that for every force there is an equal and opposite force. Therefore, all dogs can be theoretically "capped". My question to you is, do YOU think you can cap Irmus? If so, you just raised yourself an equal trainer to Mike Diehl. I know how to cap my female, I'm not sure everyone else can. If Helmut Huber, Jogi Zank, Fritz Biehler, whatever can cap and control their dog, do you think you can with the same dog? For Irmus, I would be willing to bet most couldn't. Rumor is Gary H. couldn't, that's why Mike took him. Now I guess this would also answer your question about secondary obedience. Since the way you describe secondary obedience is largely influenced by the ability to control. 

Regarding Pike. I guess Gunther Diegel was blowing smoke when he said that we needed more dogs like Pike in protection. Or maybe not. I'll take his word as authoritative.


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## Wolfgeist

wolfstraum said:


> I knew someone who watched Bomber train more than a few times in Germany - when he was Sch1 to Sch2....I was told he was hard to control, leaked drive and vocalized constantly - overloaded and could not 'cap' or think clearly....he may have matured and become more controllable...this was when he was
> 
> secondary obedience, ie, correct basic position, correct position in front, no forging in heeling....while doing protection....
> 
> Frankly - a dog who salivates in drive and who is over the top doesn't sound all that desirable to me....I don't like dogs who don't settle, who have to live in a kennel 24/7....the genetics are there in Nox and Nick to produce more than enough drive....Nick has won a couple of National events...and has super temperament
> 
> Lee


This is exactly what I have heard from trusted sources about him.


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## robk

I know where there are some Pike pups on the ground right now. Hmmm, I like Pike  By the way, this is the type of debate that I wish there was more of on this forum!


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## la_nausee

Color me not impressed when I come across and hear people in this sport say their dog or a dog they know or a dog they heard about is a monster, unruly, uncontrollable, etc... when by and large it is their inability to train or recognize less than good training. Creating self-fulfilling prophecies as a handler. So many people with good dogs with bad training, blaming the dog. Which brings me to a point I alluded to earlier. There is a separation of trainers (bad, average, top), when it comes to control in IPO. Made me rethink when someone claims a dog to be uncontrollable. Like I said, those same people would say Irmus is uncontrollable had he not ended up in the hands of Mike Dhiel.


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## hunterisgreat

la_nausee said:


> Color me not impressed when I come across and hear people in this sport say their dog or a dog they know or a dog they heard about is a monster, unruly, uncontrollable, etc... when by and large it is their inability to train or recognize less than good training. Creating self-fulfilling prophecies as a handler. So many people with good dogs with bad training, blaming the dog. Which brings me to a point I alluded to earlier. There is a separation of trainers (bad, average, top), when it comes to control in IPO. Made me rethink when someone claims a dog to be uncontrollable. Like I said, those same people would say Irmus is uncontrollable had he not ended up in the hands of Mike Dhiel.


Even more complex. Some dogs in the hands of one top trainer will thrive, but in another will fail to reach their potential. Different trainers may be perfect for one dog, but horrid for another, while still being a truly world class trainer.


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## cliffson1

And therein lies a major problem in assessing dogs.....are you seeing the true dog, the training, good handler or great handler, good trainer or great trainer or bad trainer, polished edges that are dominant or medium strong dog built up by perfect training, handling, and environment....the ability to read a dog encompasses so many elements when viewing them perform. Some of this reading can only be acquired by having worked these dogs from both ends of the leash.


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## wolfstraum

Disclaimer: Not specific to any dog or trainer - general breed comment.

There are only a few trainers who are that "good" - who will go to any means to control a dog. If you are in the sport any length of time, you will have all heard stories about how control is attained from many sources on these extreme dogs. Not everyone has the strength of will, and lack of ???? compassion to use some of the methods. There are many many dogs produced who are more than the average trainer can handle. That is why "clear headedness" is such a valued factor in evaluating character and drive and cited when it is present. There IS such a thing as too much drive.....yes there are a few people who can handle it....but the supply of such dogs far out weighs the demand. 

Grip is not everything. Barking is not everything. Prey drive is not everything. Bringing all together in a package that is trainable and competitive is the goal. Bringing it together in a dog who can go out on the field, yet be safe in the house with other dogs and little kids and who will not be dumped in a shelter or puppy mill/commercial breeder due to trainer frustration/anger is even more desirable IMO

Lee


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## GSDElsa

la_nausee said:


> Hi, can you explain B brothers? What is it that you like about them? What is enough pedigrees to go around and do what? How does Bandit grip compare to Bomber? What about comparison of drives? Anyone actually work them? Would really love to know. If it weren't for Bomber's grip which is extreme, I don't know how I could remember him. Second, Bomber is good but he isn't the best. When it comes to drives and grips show me a better one than Pike del Lupo Nero currently out there


I personally think any dog(s) that is/are being used as much as they are better be producing some decent dogs. I don't think any of the same genetics need to go into all that many females. We have enough of a genetic bottleneck and there are plenty of nice males out there to go around.

I've seen dogs out of both of them....the good and bad. 

Quite frankly the marketing that has gone into this dog since he came to the US is nauseating.


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## KristiM

wolfstraum said:


> Disclaimer: Not specific to any dog or trainer - general breed comment.
> 
> There are only a few trainers who are that "good" - who will go to any means to control a dog. If you are in the sport any length of time, you will have all heard stories about how control is attained from many sources on these extreme dogs. Not everyone has the strength of will, and lack of ???? compassion to use some of the methods. There are many many dogs produced who are more than the average trainer can handle. That is why "clear headedness" is such a valued factor in evaluating character and drive and cited when it is present. There IS such a thing as too much drive.....yes there are a few people who can handle it....but the supply of such dogs far out weighs the demand.
> 
> Grip is not everything. Barking is not everything. Prey drive is not everything. Bringing all together in a package that is trainable and competitive is the goal. Bringing it together in a dog who can go out on the field, yet be safe in the house with other dogs and little kids and who will not be dumped in a shelter or puppy mill/commercial breeder due to trainer frustration/anger is even more desirable IMO
> 
> Lee


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## KristiM

Is the lack of "capping" something that Vito tends to produce? 

I have a Vito grandson and he doesn't cap all that well. (Phenomenal dog in every other way though...)


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## cliffson1

Lack of capping is a multi faceted thing involving nerves, drives, clear headedness, and is usually the result of elements probably in both parents.


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## KristiM

I ask because I had heard from a few places that Vito tends to produce "reasonable" dogs with nice drives, not over the top. I am interested in this line since I am so in love with my male's temperament. (Obviously you need to look at the entire pedigree, but just trying to learn what dogs tend to bring certain qualities)


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## cliffson1

I have seen over thirty puppies from a Vito daughter, and probably ten of these as young adults....I would say that assessment of what comes through Vito is pretty accurate through this female.


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## KristiM

cliffson1 said:


> I have seen over thirty puppies from a Vito daughter, and probably ten of these as young adults....I would say that assessment of what comes through Vito is pretty accurate through this female.


Care to share the female 

I wonder if he produced better through females?? Or if that would even make sense. (My male also has Vito through his dam.)


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## Jag

cliffson1 said:


> Lack of capping is a multi faceted thing involving nerves, drives, clear headedness, and is usually the result of elements probably in both parents.


Isn't it also something to do with the handler, though? Is there something a handler can do?


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## cliffson1

Bora ze Svobodneho Dvora is the Vito daughter.


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## la_nausee

The reality is, truly uncontrollable & borderline uncontrollable dogs are rare, particularly breedings founded on this sport. In fact, if you:

a) are not subject to what they call in psychology - Dunning-Kruger Effect, and have access to a good trainer and good training

b) visit schutzhund clubs across the region/nation

c) train & trial

You will find lack of understanding, bad training/handling to be MOST PREVALANT -and- truly uncontrollable dogs ( largely due to genetics ) to be rare if not non-existent. Unfortunately, many are subject to the Dunning-Kruger Effect, have no access to good training/trainer, sit on their lawn chairs to gossip about this myth or that myth while pretending to be trainers, or don't give a **** about improving theoria & praxis.

Ask Heiko Grube about Belschik von Eicken-Bruche, a dog he got to handle for some time. I would possibly consider him to be borderline uncontrollable. Sit down with Heiko if you ever get the chance, and he will tell you all about Belschik. How in training the handler had to wear guantlets on both forearms. But still borderline, because in the end, they got it done, and finished successfully at the BSPs twice! He will tell you dogs like that are rare, even in Germany with all the breedings. He says a dog like that appears once in 20 years. 

I actually have access to good trainers/training, train, visit other clubs/seminars, do helper work, and most of all TRIAL! So forgive me if I don't see it that way 



wolfstraum said:


> Disclaimer: Not specific to any dog or trainer - general breed comment.
> 
> There are only a few trainers who are that "good" - who will go to any means to control a dog. If you are in the sport any length of time, you will have all heard stories about how control is attained from many sources on these extreme dogs. Not everyone has the strength of will, and lack of ???? compassion to use some of the methods. There are many many dogs produced who are more than the average trainer can handle. That is why "clear headedness" is such a valued factor in evaluating character and drive and cited when it is present. There IS such a thing as too much drive.....yes there are a few people who can handle it....but the supply of such dogs far out weighs the demand.
> 
> Grip is not everything. Barking is not everything. Prey drive is not everything. Bringing all together in a package that is trainable and competitive is the goal. Bringing it together in a dog who can go out on the field, yet be safe in the house with other dogs and little kids and who will not be dumped in a shelter or puppy mill/commercial breeder due to trainer frustration/anger is even more desirable IMO
> 
> Lee


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## wolfstraum

AGAIN - not specific to any one dog!!!

Trialing and competition is not the end result...it is a _*sport*_.....the Schutzhund test was designed as a demonstration and critique of breedworthiness.....in today's world, we have gone to totally unbalanced dogs - ie extreme prey, extreme anatomy with no drive, extreme aggression, extreme ??? whatever you want to classify the ASL as, extreme mediocrity as BYB dogs surpass all others in far far far greater numbers to the detriment of the breed and the poor dogs who are euthanized by the tens of thousands in this country....

I HAVE trained wtih some very very good people
I HAVE trained several dogs and gotten quite a few titles
I HAVE seen Belshick and a few progeny "up close and personal" (albeit when he was a senior)
I HAVE been around some top competition dogs - even handled them a bit
I HAVE bred some nice dogs - competition, LE, SAR, HGH, various other sports besides IPO - and my breeding is going into the second generation in IPO now and doing pretty well at more than club level (Nationals - IPO3 WDC and Regionals in US, National level in Belgium)
Every one of the dogs I have bred (that I know of) are also stable, balanced, family companion dogs as well - live in a home, not a kennel - whether competing in a sport or just as family dogs


VERY few people need a dog who is so over the top that he is difficult to control....personally, I have trained more than one dog who was pretty extreme in drive....that quite a few well known trainers said would V in protection at the National level.....do not have the resources (club, helper, back up at home, $$$ and now physical ability added) to pursue that as a goal....one dog leaked drive too much and it took me, as a novice, quite a while to control him...he did V in protection, and was very much admired by eveyone who saw him or had him on a sleeve....ruined in OB unfortunately - between Dean and Anne, I got enough solid training advice to get him through OB with enough points to pass, but it took almost 2 years - those dumbbells are 40 points!!.....So I know that these extreme dogs can be heartbreaking.....if an owner does have the right helper/trainer/advice - the dog ends up washed out, given away, sold .....

The people who want, need, can deal with a dog that over the top are few and far between - and they buy adults in Europe....most people out there want a good dog, with good temperament who is biddable, who they can live with. 

Someone remarked about stud dogs who had many breedings being sold....Lots of high profile dogs are sold - when breeders move on to the newest popular dog, when the owner has an upcoming dog, selling an established male is common - dogs are BIG business.....why let a dog languish in a kennel when his breedings are dropping off, you have another one to promote and you can get a big price for him....it is REALLY common in the show line world, several BSP winners have been sold when the demand for breedings drops off....some before they are even used for breeding if the price offered is big enough.....it is business, pure and simple....

Lee


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## KristiM

Thanks Cliffson, nice looking girl (this stuff really helps in doing research for when I am ready for another dog, it is appreciated.)

@Jag here is a good clip about capping/noise Involuntary Vocalization

I don't think I will ever understand why a dog that chews up his handler is valued.

@ the OP thanks for sharing, always cool to hear about first hand experiences with these well known dogs!


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## G-burg

I like his grip.. Also like the grip on the few pups I've seen out of him.. And to me he's a nice looking black dog!


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## ipopro

If I can't PM you how may I contact you?


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