# Training puppy to tug- pup won't clamp down



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I did do a search, but after three pages of results wasn't seeing what I'm looking for.

I just can't get Jinks to really clamp down on toys. I've bought quite a few new toys of different softness/hardness, different materials, different styles, squeaky/not squeaky, etc.

He's a chewer/biter but seems to have almost not desire to tug. Here's a pretty good example actually- he won't clamp down on the toy:









He chases the toys just fine, bites them, but simply won't clamp down. I'm a little frustrated with his complete lack of desire to tug. Thoughts on this? Any games specifically meant to build the desire to tug?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

To increase the desire to tug for my Lacy, I had to use a flirt pole. Holding the toy and attempting to tug (for some reason) made him release. But put the same toy on a rope and drag it, and he'll hang on for life.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Actually- I have had some success with the flirt pole. He'll chase/catch the toy and then try to get away with it. I can tug with the line of the flirt pole, but if I grab the toy to tug with the toy, he EASILY gives up- almost no tugging. I suppose this is still _something_ and maybe I should just try to build this...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

HAHAHAHA! Posted the same time, said the same thing! So how did you transition from toy on a rope, to toy without a rope??


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

That is what I'm doing. With having the toy on the rope I can creep down the rope while tugging. I've only recently (since Christmas) started working on this for a specific certification. I try to release before he does. 

I will say that he's a lot better than he was. He'll hang on a toy while playing (with out the rope) but if I apply too much pressure, he'll release. We're taking baby steps. I can't get him certified till he's two, so I have a year.

I've also found that if I don't look at him directly, he'll hang on longer (with out the rope). My trainer said that he is because he is handler sensitive.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I guess I'll need to make an indoor flirt pole soon... Thanks for the suggestion! Man, I swear- Pimg was/is SOOOO easy to train! I have to keep reminding myself *BABY STEPS!!* haha!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Perhaps make high pitched squeaking sounds...you may sound & look funny but that might get the pup to latch on!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think that there are a variety of issues at work with pups and grip. I went through some of this with my dog. When he was a pup he would go after the flirt pole or rag / tug with a vengeance. However, He would try to control the tug with his feet and not really bite it. Some of this could have been teething. Some could have been handler softness. Some could have been maturity. He is 20 months now and has a very solid grip but that did not really happen until after a year. It was actually like a light switch. One day he just began to bite much harder. It was immediately noticed by the helper.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Noises don't seem to have much affect on his play (other than some noises startle him).


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Although I wouldn't say ANYBODY should do this...I'll admit that it's working for me.....I'll fight with him with a towel, he'll latch on to one end and then I'll 'pretend' to turn the other way and try to run. I make a huge production of it. If he lets go, I'll take the towel and play pretty rough with him. He'll latch on and we start again. 

This is a brand new thing he just started (the towel). With the towel I can choke up on it, or just take a corner depending on the level of engagement I can raise him to. 

Then during the same session, I'll use the towel to get him to 'bring it'. I'll release it and have him drag it. 

FWIW - he'll play tug with Hondo..snout to snout. He'll pull with all he's got. So I figure it's got to be 'me'.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

robk said:


> However, He would try to control the tug with his feet and not really bite it. Some of this could have been teething. Some could have been handler softness. Some could have been maturity.


Oh good observation. Yes, I failed to mention that at least 50% of the time he does try to control the flirt pole toy with his feet. Perhaps it's all three things with Jinks (who is around four months old). 

He does have all adult incisors in (pretty sure) and is missing at least one canine (it's REALLY hard to get a look in his mouth). He lost a premolar about a week ago. So he's definitely teething. It takes him as long as, perhaps, 7 minutes to eat a cup of puppy kibble softened (slightly) with water. In fact, just two days ago I noticed some blood on the chew toy in the picture- it has a yellow back. It had red spots ALL over it. Looked like he killed it real good... haha

And he does have some softness, for sure. And as a young adolescent, he certainly has a long way to go with maturing. So yes, it could be all three of those things.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Lilie said:


> FWIW - he'll play tug with Hondo..snout to snout. He'll pull with all he's got. So I figure it's got to be 'me'.


He's starting to want to tug with Pimg, but she's a real bitch and wants nothing of it.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree with the flirt pole, once he's doing well with that mimic the same with a toy in your hand. Once he's finished teething hopefully he'll catch on fast 

For Delgado, I play tug with most of his toys so it startles people sometimes if they grab a toy and he'll grab it as well to tug, he tugs HARD lol


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I personally would not tug with a puppy until I was 100% sure he was done teething. Kinda hard to teach a dog to love tugging when it's uncomfortable to do so. This was a big thing at the schutzhund club ABSOLUTLEY NO TUGGING until thy are done teething. Maybe they were just weird about it lol.

ETA Odin was never a big tugger until I watched the power of playing tug with your dog by Michael Ellis. Now he's a tugging maniac, if there was one dog training DVD I had to have that would be it!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hmmm... but, but.. agility... and tug.. and.. but.... WAHHHH!!!!!!!!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I KNOW! I remember being so keen on schutzhund when Odin was a puppy, I brought him out for some puppy bite work. Half way through the helper asked me if he was teething, I said yes and he just about took my head off! I was new and super embarrassed that I didn't know you don't do any tugging with teething puppies. So it kinda stuck lol. 

Michael Ellis talks about it a bit in the DVD too. It really is a must have for anyone who wants to train their dog in anything! (There isn't anything in the DVD about bite sports, just tugging.)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Which Ellis DVD are you referring to? I think he has one called "Raising a Working Puppy" or something like that...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Well, how about that.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

This one, the raising a working puppy is done by Ed Frawley I beleive (not a huge fan of the frawley DVDs, haven;t watched that on though.) Michael Ellis some really good ones that pertain to all dog training, I have (and highly recommend) the tug DVD (below) "the power of training dogs with food" and "Advanced concepts in motivation." You can get them all at leerburg (if you feel like spending your paycheck on all of them lol.) These 3 DVDs though I would buy again if I lost mine, I wouldn't say that about any of the other dog training DVDs I have bought and/or rented. I've actaully watched each one multiple times.

Leerburg | The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog DVD


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

wildo said:


> Well, how about that.
> Playing Tug While Teething - YouTube


Haha, sometimes I don't just pull this stuff out of my behind lol! (Only sometimes though)


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I had this issue with Grim until he lost his baby teeth. I was worried for awhile, because I figured he'd want to tug. Then, when he wouldn't tug with the ropes, etc. I got for that I had to get creative. He was always stealing my socks when I was trying to put them on. So I started with a sock. He latched right on. I gave a TON of verbal praise. One thing I forgot to do sometimes, though, was actually let him win and give it to him! After he was onto the sock, and went for his eval where he bit onto a leather glove and then the burlap rag, I bought a puppy leather tug. (It opens flat at the end) He tugs with that just fine. Sometimes he'll start to lose interest in the middle, so I'll smack him with it (not hard, just to get him interested again) and sure enough, he'll tug some more! I still praise him heavily while he's tugging. I have his synthetic tug (which is an actual 2 handle tug) that I'm going to start him on soon. Sometimes you have to go in baby steps. With other shepherds, I never even started playing tug with them until they were a little older than Grim.

I didn't realize you got a new pup! Congrats!!


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

This might sound really silly, but have you tried the french linen tugs or leather tugs?

Finn was never really much of a tugger, but during one of our first SAR trainings, the trainer pulled out this FL Tug and he went crazy on it. He wouldn't let go for anything, not even his super high value treat. After a few weeks with it, he now plays a good round of tug with just about any toy, but the FL and Leather are his absolute favorite.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

No, I haven't tried either of those- or jute for that matter. I do have a jute one I can try, and I also have a fire house one I can try. I don't have a leather or french linen one though.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Some dogs just do not have a strong grip genetically....my first reaction is - _well - this is why he was placed - grips not good....

_You can keep working with him....synthetic tugs are NOT good, they are slippery and will wear on the teeth - go to the french linen or anything he will tug with!!! You can also backtie him and tease him with a chamois too to increase the desire to tug with him...

Lee


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Some dogs just do not have a strong grip genetically


This is what I was thinking...we have a Boston mix that loves loves loves to play "tug" but she won't hang on _at all_, despite her fat muscular jaws. Oh, she will when you're pulling, and when she's "killing" said toy, but as for trying to get her to actually hang, no go.
I think it's because she doesn't get the thing back into her back teeth?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Willie - no fire hose either - you want something that is easy to grip, not hard or slippery....if you have an old suede vest or piece of clothing, that is a bit tougher than a chamois, cut it up and use it for a flirt pole toy....I got all my french linen stuff from Can-Am on ebay...it comes from Canada and is good quality and reasonably priced

Lee


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I've never used french linen before (not even felt it before) but do know of it. I'll try to order some. I also don't have any leather toys, but a chamois is not expensive. I'll try that too.

Lee- what's your thoughts on tugging with a teething puppy? Do you agree or disagree with Leerberg? Or maybe it's more complicated than black & white?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> Some dogs just do not have a strong grip genetically....my first reaction is - _well - this is why he was placed - grips not good....
> 
> _


He also will not endlessly go after the flirt pole. If he doesn't "capture" the toy in 10-15 seconds, he disengages and gives up entirely, onto something new. That might have been a reason as well. That's ok- we'll build the drive. Nothing new for me; look at Pimg.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

From what I have heard some dogs aren't bothered at all by tugging when they are teething and some dogs are very bothered by it. One of the mals at my old club wouldn't tug at all at this age....I believe he is a ring1 now. Was big on tugging after teething, to say the least. I want my dogs to tug with anything and everything I offer them, so I made sure I switched it up lots when they were puppies (after teething.)

Don't worry about him not having crazy drive right now. Odin was a very "sleepy" puppy, I was so paranoid that he would have no drive to do anything but he matured to have a very good amount of drive without being over the top. In fact I hope my next dog is slower to build drive, after having a dog like havoc that was super high drive from the time I brought him home. I think that may be part of the reason we are having so many physical problems now. His mind was way more advanced than his body. It is very normal for male puppies to mature into their drive. 

Having a performance puppy is going o kill you lol. So much WAITING its torture


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Love this blog post about "sleepy puppies."http://denisefenzi.com/2011/11/28/sleepy-puppies/


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

KristiM said:


> Having a performance puppy is going o kill you lol. So much WAITING its torture


That's for sure!! :rofl: Come on! I'm already behind on PuppyPeaks! LOL!!! He should have a perfect recall by now! 

BTW- whoever asked me if I'm doing Susan Garrett's Recallers 4- the answer has changed from H-E-Double Hockey Sticks No! I've spent enough money on training lately, to yes- if I can figure out how to make a 2 min video talking about Recallers 3 (which admittedly was CRAZY hard since Pimg severely sprained her knee at the beginning of it).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with Lee about the fire hose - neither of mine were particularly interested in the ones I got. Once they got more into tugging they started going for those too, but to get them to that point I needed something softer. The linen are nice, but Halo killed them so fast that I had to come up with something else. I went with suede, which they both liked: Fullgripgear by Rufflife


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

KristiM said:


> Love this blog post about "sleepy puppies."Sleepy Puppies Denise Fenzi
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Wow- that was an awesome read! MANY of the things she said about the "sleepy" stage I see in Jinks. It's not totally fair to say since I haven't REALLY started any intense training, but the environmental curiosity, the lack of tug desire, the attention span, the lack of fetch, etc- sounds so much like Jinks. It must be (ahem- WILL be) fun when they come out of their shell and really start turning on the switch! Looking forward to it!


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

wildo said:


> Wow- that was an awesome read! MANY of the things she said about the "sleepy" stage I see in Jinks. It's not totally fair to say since I haven't REALLY started any intense training, but the environmental curiosity, the lack of tug desire, the attention span, the lack of fetch, etc- sounds so much like Jinks. It must be (ahem- WILL be) fun when they come out of their shell and really start turning on the switch! Looking forward to it!


At least he likes to play! Odin literally just sat there and stared at us with this uber seroius puppy look on his face when we tried to play with him. I was mortified at what a dud he was! Really wish I had read that when he was a puppy, it was a long, frustrating first 6 months. 

I am sure that all of these issues will resolve as soon as he is done teething Then you will be complaining about how hard he accidentally nails you when you give a bad tug presentation lol.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

I'm having similar problems with my pup - we won't play with me. There's nothing wrong with his drive, he bites like a maniac when I'm not playing. For example, when I try to put on socks, trousers etc. he will bite and sometimes grips so hard I almost fall down . Another example is that if I try to run away from him, he'll catch me and grip hard my ankle. Outch! When this happens, I always praise him and try to redirect his attention with a tennis ball etc.

Flirt pole doesn't help either, as soon as the pup realizes it's *me* who is there on the other side, he slows down and loses interest.

So I'm not that worried about his tugging in general, but there is something wrong with me. I guess I put too much pressure for this dog (I have no problems tugging with other dogs). So I'm doing nothing about it, just waiting. Hope it gets better when he grows up (he's only 15 wks). If he doesn't ever get over this, I'll use tennis balls, they seem to work nicely.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't desperately tried to play with him, I noticed this behavior pretty quickly and I've been very careful not to stress him too much.

(Just realized that my current profile picture tells a different story..... But that was about the only time he played eagerly!)


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## YukonGal (Aug 25, 2011)

It was me who asked about Recallers 4.0 Willy. Glad you're going to do a video and be in it - I always enjoy reading about your dog journeys! See you there!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

YukonGal said:


> It was me who asked about Recallers 4.0 Willy. Glad you're going to do a video and be in it - I always enjoy reading about your dog journeys! See you there!


Ah! Glad you commented! I couldn't remember who asked. Luckily, all it took was two hours of my time to put video together. Admittedly, it was quite difficult for me since I didn't really do much of Recallers 3.0. If you recall, the start of class was just about the same time Pimg severely sprained her knee. We had to stop all activity for two months, and gradually had worked back into activity months after that. I think we ended up taking as much as 4-5months off. I never did start up Recallers. I always struggled with the Critical Core games (with Pimg pretty much hating them). Not sure if I'm just not fun enough or what, but she finds crate games to be about the most boring thing on this planet. Luckily, I had previously trained a pretty great recall on Pimg anyway, so I was able to come up with a video. Here's my video:





I'm hoping my new puppy Jinks (who desperately needs some recall training) will have a different perspective on these games. I'm excited to actually be able to DO the Recaller games with Jinks! I've started the name recognition game, collar grab game, and IYC- which he seems to be doing fine with. I keep _saying_ I'm going to start crate games, but just haven't set aside the time yet. Been working on a garage project that's taken a significant amount of time. Anyway- See you there! Should be a blast!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

So I'm 4 pages late to this thread, but Willy this is what I have observed and done with my puppies and a few I've worked with/raised/fostered....

How old is he again? Has he teethed yet? Neither Nikon nor Pan were big tuggers until after teething. Nikon would chase and chew stuff, Pan actually had almost no prey drive whatsoever until about 6 months which is pretty ironic knowing him. Anna, the WGSL puppy I raised for a few weeks, actually had the most tug drive with the best targeting a grip of all the puppies and young dogs I've had in my house. Luna my foster was a lot like Jinx, she would go for toys and chew at them but not really latch on a tug. I think this is partly because the drives are still maturing and partly because some dogs just won't cut loose when they don't feel really secure and confident and/or might be somewhat distracted. I believe the latter is the case with Luna, since by the time she was adopted I could swing her around latched to a tug, but even now 6 months later at flyball she alternates between tugging really hard and being really chewy or only showing a mild interest.

I've found all my dogs and Luna too have done better when they have something specific to target, so instead of using long braided fleece tugs or bitework type rags we now use braided tugs with a ball on the end (tennis ball or some sort of rubber ball). If you can start with this now it will also help you later on if you are serious about trying flyball. You want the dog to target *low* so IMO the best toys (especially for larger dogs) are long tugs where you can drag a ball in the runback.

I use whatever toy *I* think is safest/most appropriate. Often when I try a new sport and introduce a new toy my dogs aren't really interested but that's just too bad  What works for me is backtying the dog to a tree or the hitch on my van (attach them with a harness and 15' line) and then just doing prey type work where I'm dancing around, whipping that toy around on the ground, getting them all crazy up for it. Like what some people call "bitework" but to me this is not bitework, just making a dog nuts for the toy. When they are really focused, barking, going nuts for the toy then I pick it up and pop it in their mouth. 

This is also a great opportunity for me to reinforce them targeting the ball on the end and not just biting at random (Luna needs this since she has a habit of jumping at her owner and biting her hand or trying to bite the handle instead of the ball). Really I just make the dog crazy and feed them the ball. Also, sometimes the dog grips on better because there is some resistance, being that he is attached to the tree or vehicle. 

Using a longer style tug puts some distance between you and the dog making it less confrontational, so you can turn sideways. If your dog has a good grip and is countering, trying to tug you backward, get all dramatic about it. Grunt and let him pull you over and pull the tug away. I get so used to Nikon's extreme desire to tug, fight, and overpower and how confrontational I am with him in play that I take it for granted and have to remind myself when working with a younger or new dog (or anything other than a cocky GSD) that I'm not too confrontational and not unintentionally bullying the dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would stop trying to tug with the pup until he is done teething. IF a sore mouth is the issue then you are just reinforcing that tugging causes pain. You have a lifetime so don't create issues just because you WANT something right NOW.


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## YukonGal (Aug 25, 2011)

Liesje, do you buy your long braided tugs with a ball or make them yourself?

Willy - I've started IYC, Collar Grab and am waiting to get my Crate Games video back from a friend to start on that - I've got a 10 week old puppy so let the games begin!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> How old is he again? Has he teethed yet? Neither Nikon nor Pan were big tuggers until after teething. Nikon would chase and chew stuff, Pan actually had almost no prey drive whatsoever until about 6 months which is pretty ironic knowing him.


4.5 months old, *currently* teething. Not a ton of prey drive. That's crazy to hear that about Pan- gives me some hope! (Well, I'm not really lacking- I just was kind of expecting a "prey monster" which he most certainly is NOT.)

And great suggestions on all the toys! Thanks a ton Lies! Oh- you're also not the only one to tell me to back-tie him. I'll look into that once he's done teething.




lhczth said:


> I would stop trying to tug with the pup until he is done teething. IF a sore mouth is the issue then you are just reinforcing that tugging causes pain. You have a lifetime so don't create issues just because you WANT something right NOW.


Completely agree. It was news to me that this issue actually existed. I didn't know about tugging when Pimg was a puppy. We just played with toys and that's about it, I'm sure. Hard to remember back then- but I knew almost nothing when I got her. In fact- I joined this forum way back when to ask why my four month old puppy (Pimg) was destroying my house when I left her loose while I was at work... :rofl:

I don't think I know a ton now, but I definitely _didn't_ know not to tug with a teething puppy. I've heeded this advice and have not tried to tug with him. I agree it very well could be creating a negative association with tugging. We'll stick to treat training for now. I'm much more successful with that anyway (with Pimg).

Thanks guys!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

YukonGal said:


> Liesje, do you buy your long braided tugs with a ball or make them yourself?



I buy them from two local flyball vendors (people who set out a table of their stuff at our tournaments and you can pick what you want and pay them). My newest one came with a rubber ball on it and my other ones came with tennis balls which come off eventually and then I put on a Chuck-It Whistler ball instead. The bottom ones are better than the top because it's true braided climbing rope (the top one has "cored" rope which is not as strong and will stretch).




























Nikon's is black and brown with an orange ball. You can sort of see how long they are, I keep it over my shoulders while I'm starting my dog


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


>


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Pan pictures! :wub: Why the H hasn't Jason posted any lately?? LOL!


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I was in the same position as you last year. It sucks. When you have a puppy with sooooo much hope and plans for... you want success now! Teething was the worst months of having Storm. It was torture. I wanted to work her, and continue going forward with her toy drive and bite work. However, my trainer does not work pups while they are teething.... so we waited.... and waited. Finally, after all her teeth fell out and adults came in, we went back to work. Her grip was MUCH better and her bite was very hard. We didn't have any issues after that. (The few times we did play with her during teething, her grip was terrible. She barely latched onto the toy to even just get it from my hand. Teething HURTS, so I always just gave her the toys right away)

If the dog has it... the dog has it. It wont go away. He's probably not gripping because his mouth hurts. Just wait until he's done so he doesn't associate the tug with pain. 

Good luck with your wait! It's painful for the owners too!! :crazy:


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## YukonGal (Aug 25, 2011)

Thanks Liesje - they look great - was hoping I could buy them online......

I have to confess when I first started on the forum I creeped any Pan pictures I could find that you posted


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rush to Tug has some braided fleece tugs with a ball on them: Replay Tug Toy - Rush to Tug

The only problem with tennis balls though is that they aren't that durable. I had a flyball tug for Halo with three tennis balls on it, and after one ball was gone and a second one was threads away from being pulled off, I ordered some Orbee balls, unbraided the whole thing, and rebraided it. This is what it looks like now:









I think you could get something custom made from Rush to Tug, if you want certain colors that aren't on any of the stock tugs she makes, and she might also do different balls if you ask. It's a young girl in Alaska, and she's great to work with. When I've ordered from her she's gotten my stuff out the next day, and it shows up via USPS Priority Mail a few days later.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

YukonGal said:


> Thanks Liesje - they look great - was hoping I could buy them online......
> 
> I have to confess when I first started on the forum I creeped any Pan pictures I could find that you posted



I have a card somewhere from the girl that was selling stuff this past weekend. They look easy to make if you get some climbing rope and learn how to braid/knot, I just never bothered because they are $15-$18 in person so I'm too lazy to get all the materials when I just need one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are several people making paracord tabs/leashes on fb...I bet they will incorporate a ball into them asap
Fleece is so much easier on the hands, though than the knotted paracord!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't mind my cord tugs (especially the new one with that thick tubing on the handle) but I don't think they are paracord. Each individual strand is 1/2" or thicker and paracord is like 1/8". We had a braided fleece one and it lasted less than two training sessions. Pan bit it clear in half. For a smaller/lighter weight dog it may be perfect though.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> We had a braided fleece one and it lasted less than two training sessions. Pan bit it clear in half.


Bad Pan. :nono:  

Halo is really good about targeting the ball and not the fleece. If she grabs the fleece accidentally I stop tugging immediately and say "ball" and she'll redirect onto the ball. It's not going to last forever, but keeping her teeth off the material has helped it stay in pretty good shape for quite a while.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also the brand new pink tug, he's already pulled the ball over the knot  So that was one tournament and one practice. I'll try to push it back but I'm not sure there's enough cord left on to make a bigger knot.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh yeah, Halo's done that too. I have knots on either side of the balls, but they've tightened up from tugging so they're somewhat smaller than they were when I first made it, and the balls will migrate. I just push them back into place, but that may not work as well with your tug. I could add more knots to mine since it's around 5 feet long but then the knots would be HUGE! None of the balls actually came off, they just moved around.

Her original tug with tennis balls did not have knots, so the balls didn't stay in place at all, which seemed like a design flaw and was one of the things I didn't like about it - the quality of the braiding was very nice, but she (Tweak's Tugs) must not have been used to the tug power of a GSD, lol!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I have always tugged with my puppies during teething but they were always willing. If inks isn't so into tug, it's probably best to wait. Instead you can work on developing his prey drive with the flirt pole for now. Just a few short sessions at a time, stop before he wants to stop. 

Denise Fenzi has a couple excellent articles about developing tug drive:

The Dog Athlete - Selecting the Best Toys to Train and Motivate

The Dog Athlete - Playing With Prey Drive


Really though, dogs don't need to be tug crazy to be competitive performance dogs. Sure, people like it if they do but it's really not a requirement


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

wildo said:


> And he does have some softness, for sure. And as a young adolescent, he certainly has a long way to go with maturing. So yes, it could be all three of those things.


I think you nailed it right there. Softness. He may be intimidated by you even though you aren't intimidating. Try to find a very high value toy. Also try a little (friendly) growling and make it fun. Let him win every time.
My dog started out soft with regard to tugging also. Once she wasn't intimidated and knew we were having fun she became a real good tugger.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Willy, tugging while teething isn't always an issue (heck, I used it as a way to get Nike's puppy teeth to come out), but since you are having problems it is something to consider. I remember we had a club member whose male was MISERABLE when he was teething. He moaned and his ears dropped and he was the most pitiful creature you have ever seen.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Wow- that was an awesome read! MANY of the things she said about the "sleepy" stage I see in Jinks. It's not totally fair to say since I haven't REALLY started any intense training, but the environmental curiosity, the lack of tug desire, the attention span, the lack of fetch, etc- sounds so much like Jinks. It must be (ahem- WILL be) fun when they come out of their shell and really start turning on the switch! Looking forward to it! 
and then this "I'm hoping my new puppy Jinks (who desperately needs some recall training) "

Wildo , the little Jinks , was a rescue , who you so kind heartedly took in . Chances are that he was there because he was distracted and would did not engage with the person who had him , did not offer play , deciding to run away , maybe avoid getting collected.

You don't know his back story or his genetic history.

So -- you have to accept him for what he is without superimposing your expectations that you have based on a "breed norm". 

What I would do long before tug , which is adversarial or oppositional and requires confidence and a connection allowing the dog to judge you , playing? means it ? , is to do everything with proximity and comfort in decisions the dog makes - positive , positive , and recalls with no option possible for not recalling .


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

carmspack said:


> Wildo , the little Jinks , was a rescue , who you so kind heartedly took in . Chances are that he was there because he was distracted and would did not engage with the person who had him , did not offer play , deciding to run away , maybe avoid getting collected.


 Why would you assume this is why a young puppy ended up in rescue? 

I took in a rescue Mal pup who had no interest in tugging or toys for the first couple weeks I had him. None at all. Wouldn't chase things and was afraid of stuffed toys or toys that were thrown. I did happen to know his background and pedigree, I was surprised he seemed to have so little interest coming from such a strong working pedigree, rescue or not. I kept trying though and now you really would have no idea he was so weird about toys at first. Actually might be a little too into tugging now  What did it for him finally was the flirt pole and just being more confident about things. 

FWIW he was put up on CL 48 hours after his new owner got him from the breeder. He had no issues engaging with his new owner or running away or avoid being caught. He was anti-social towards strangers though and was just all around way more work than the young guy who had never had a dog other than a childhood GSD thought he would be. 

Dogs are given up for all different reasons. People get puppies with unrealistic expectations than freak out when they act like puppies, cry at night, chew stuff up, "don't listen", etc. Sadly many of the Mals in rescue are from working pedigrees or out of dogs from working parents but bred by people who didn't carefully place them and don't care about what happens to them after the sale. There aren't "pet lines" of Mals the way there are with GSDs. There's what people call "BYB" but their dogs are working bred. Not all working bred dogs are going to be high drive but I'd be surprised if Jinks is going to be a low drive dog. Chances are fair that like with Roust, he didn't have any imprinting done early on, maybe hadn't played with toys much and just needs a boost in confidence and the right game to get him going.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

maybe expectations were high from or for a "working breed" and the guy did not have the time or patience to wait - wanted more of a guarantee , and since Malinois are not your sought after "pet" dog , took the easy route and had a rescue find the re-home. The important thing is that Wildo not go in to the same pattern expecting things quickly or on a schedule and possibly repeat what has already happened . 
Doing the same thing does not get you a different solution. 

That is why -- get the dog interested in you , engage with the dog in activities close by , non confrontational , win win for the dog.

I have had a very well known breeder of GSD (no longer active) that would breed Malinois , to cover both bases for service and then the market for malinois fell flat . I was offered an entire litter and the dam for no charge , would be driven up from US to my location. 

It was hard to find homes for malinois .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as KatDog said in the thread "I think I've got it" "I am absolutely not the expert but I have come to think that engagement and focus are foundations for just about everything else."

good advice there , good advice here . You need to develop a relationship with the dog first , not when you feel it , when the dog feels it . You will know because you will have a shift in behaviour . Also good piece of advice on that thread -- reduce , limit, or eliminate the exposure and playtime with the gsd.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

words of wisdom from another thread -- thank you Trickygsd "I know it sounds silly.... but, I think we were both so bull headed that we just didn't listen to what each other was trying to share. I was pushing her to do what didn't work for her, and in return I got rebuttal from her. This made both of us miserable. When I stopped training for a week or so, I just played with her and learned what she is all about as an individual. We spent time bonding. That was the best thing I could have ever done. I really learned so much from her. From there, I worked with her every day. I changed her routine to better work her mind, body, and give us time for bonding. I allowed her to be more of a puppy... stop expecting so much from her. We completely pushed aside all the our sporting goals, and just enjoyed her for what she is first and foremost... a companion. Sometimes I think people get too tied up in their goals and expectations... they forget about the animal (and their own stress level). They are still a living breathing creature, and most of all... an individual. Not a robot. I think I lost track of this, and got way too caught up in the stress of performing well"

Wildo you have not had the Jinks very long .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> Sometimes I think people get too tied up in their goals and expectations... got way too caught up in the stress of performing well"
> 
> Wildo you have not had the Jinks very long .


I get your point. I've not done anything with him but try to tug. I don't think my goals or expectations are getting in the way of anything other than the fact that I thought he'd be a prey monster right now.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Did you test him for prey drive when you went to see him?

Out of my adult dogs, two of the four will tug and two never have. My mal has tugged from day 1, even through teething, and my oldest GSD actually had to be trained to have a very soft mouth, no tug/prey drive encouraged. She was to be a leader dog but hip dysplasia landed her back with me. Now she will tug and chase, but it was always there as a puppy as well. I just wasn't permitted to encourage it.

I also wanted to note that you noted that he has almost all of his adult teeth in - I'd wager e's older than they represented or knew about. Dante was about 6 mo before he had all his adult teeth in, as were my GSD's.

I wouldn't use jute or firehose, we use jute with him since he's a serious tugger but it's a harsh hard material. 

I would backtie and tease him up then make sure you always let him win. Build the confidence. But realize you may need a backup reward, he may just not be interested. Does he have ball drive? 


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

He was a bit nervous when I first arrived at the rescue. It took him a little while to come around, but he did eventually start playing with me. No, I didn't really test him for drive other than to see if he's chase a toy- which he did.

Yes, most of his adult teeth are just through his gums- just about 1/8" or so showing. He still has a couple premolars in. He did show a little aggression yesterday as a slightly DA bitch went after him playing in my backyard. I was surprised at his rather intense reaction given I think he's around 4.75-5 months old. I was shocked that a five month old would be so quick to escalate that and retaliate. So he may be a bit older, though I'm not to concerned about his age. A month here or there doesn't mean a whole lot. (And yes, the escalation lasted all of about 1.5 seconds; I was standing right there and had it broken up immediately.) He recovered very fast from the incident, and was back to playing only a minute later.

He did steal the jute tug from me and started chewing it. :nono:  All the tug toys are now put up where they can't be chewed. Rerun- that's the third recommendation to back tie him. Maybe I should look into that. I really suspect he'll come around just fine on his own. I think that KristiM is probably right in providing that article about "sleepy" dogs. I have no doubt that as he grows in age, maturity, and confidence that he'll be quite happy to tug and play.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo , you said it yourself right here "that I thought he'd be a prey monster right now. "

You thought . Why ? because it is something that you expect from the breed.

Again . You got him from a rescue which is a beautiful thing . You know nothing about him, his reason for being in rescue . You don't know who bred him, why , with what expectations , sire and dam and family potential unknowns . You don't know whether he had been bought originally by someone wanting a "working" dog for professional use , found the necessities were not there and so offered for rehome . 

That is why I meantioned the rescue - to say that the dog is what he is , not what you want to superimpose on him. 

In agility what do you need to be competitive ? You need an environmentally secure dog to be able to handle the surfaces , elevations , and obscure moments. You need a dog that is very connected to you to take direction . The dog has to be "in to you". That is why I am saying develop that first . Get the dog crazy in to you , as much as his potential allows . 

Since Susan got her Maggie from me she has introduced me to Chewber , invented by one of her family members Chewber homepage . I think this might be a good toy to start bringing in mr Jinks .

This can serve as a bowl . So you, Wildo, you take a hungry pooch , who know has a motivation for food , and you put one bit into the Chewber bowl which you are holding . You are in a room , the two of you with no distractions for you or for the dog . This is the one on one . (see people training and texting or on cell at same time) Jinks comes over and spies the food . You tease him by moving the bowl , just enough so that he needs to focus on it , follow it with his eye , side to side , up down , subtle not large movement . Happy with that - bing , hold bowl , tell him good let him get the bit of food . Repeat a few times so you see he has made a connection . Good . Now put him away in his crate and let him think about what just happened . Fifteen , twenty minutes . You do this so that there is no other possiblity to self reward , by jumping around or chasing the GSD .

Bring him out repeat what you had done . 

For that day the exercise is encouraging and rewarding focus .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

let him grow up Willy.....don't worry about it right now....a ball can be used as a tug as well....and if you really want to get him to tug, try a french linen or one of those cutesy fleece braided thingys I see at agility trials....back-tie and frustration can help, but are more for strike and grip but tug is the next action after strike and grip....

He is probably 5 months plus with the teeth in that stage - mine usually have adults pretty much in with canines not fully exposed by 6 months....also if he is teething - that could be why he does not want to tug....let it go until he has full set of adult teeth

As Carmen and others have pointed out...get bonded with him before making alot of training goals

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't have this Jinks who needs to bond with you , play so much with other dogs - I would cut that out altogether


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have not tried to tug with him for 11 days now- when this thread was first started. I have nothing to "let go." I accepted that when the thread was started and it was made known that perhaps a teething puppy wouldn't want to tug.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but you are not accepting that this may not be something that the dog is interested in , or something which you need to make a pleasureable reason to connect with you

when he chases a toy does he bring it to you ?

that is what you need , not just the chase . 

if you used that Chewber thing you could toss that , and his reward is when he offers it to you , into the bowl portion you are going to put a piece or two of his food . The quicker he was in returning the more pieces there are . A smart dog will figure this out .
When he brings it back to you , after some days with reliabilty , showing confidence in you developing , you could give it a little tug for that oppositional clamp , reward , that . Now you can develop the clamp or grip . But far more important is that you are starting to develop direction and relationship with the dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> but you are not accepting that this may not be something that the dog is interested in , or something which you need to make a pleasureable reason to connect with you


Am I not? Because I had breed preconceptions (which is hardly fair for you to hold against me- with all the BS "malinois are crazy, tugging, nutso dogs; GSDs on crack!!!!1!" talk on this forum) you think I have not listened to and accepted your advice on the matter? Pimg wasn't into tugging either- and she certainly wasn't bred to be a tugging machine (genetically speaking). But she now engages completely and tugs hard- very hard, actually. Will Jinks ever be able to use tug as his sole reward in training? I don't know. But he _will_ tug eventually. All dogs can. No, I don't accept that he'll *never* be interested in tugging. Yes, I accept that tugging might not be his primary means of reward. Not sure why you seem so negative about my puppy... I'm not completely stupid when it comes to raising a dog. I'd like to think that Pimg proves that. Building a bond with Jinks is most obvious and paramount to me. I've never stated that it wasn't.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In my experience, if he showed *any* interest in chasing and biting a toy, then you WILL be able to create a tug monster over time. The *only* dog of mine that would not ever tug with me was a dog that wouldn't clamp down if I filled a sock with raw flanks steak, lol. She was just not interested in tugging or toys AT ALL, ever. Even Coke, my soft-tempered, extremely "soft mouthed" rescue mutt will tug with me if I use the right toy and build him up to it.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Hmm, this thread has taken an interesting turn lol. For one I really don't think that you can judge anything about a dog's behavior/temperament over the internet, so common on this forum and drives me nuts. Two, Wildo, you know more about what it takes to have a highly competetive agility dog than probably 95% of the people on this forum. So hope your not taking any of the negative comments to heart. Have confidence in your training, again with all the courses and experience you have in this particular area I don't forsee you having any trouble whatsoever! Although if you are anything like me (completely obsessed with agility) being patient is going to kill you hahaha.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Try a flirt pole. That makes my boys *crazy**! I also hold a fun toy and dance around, "who wants this toy", hide it behind my back, act all suspicious, run around, then smack it on the ground and say "Get it"! Makes em act all crazy -like!! 

Tim loves to tug, but prefers to work for food. He wil do anything, jump on anthing if he thinks a food reward may be offered. I taught him using the "food chasing game" that Micheal Ellis promotes. Also, Forrest Micke's seminar on motivation and drive-building was great. He used food for most, rapid- fire reinforcement with high value, sometimes a jackpot with filet mignon (no kidding! ). We also did some teasing with a agitation harness on a few of the dogs, even with just a flat collar and got them revved up. Just really depended on the dog!

I am sure you will figure out what floats his boat.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

ponyfarm said:


> Tim loves to tug, but prefers to work for food. He wil do anything, jump on anthing if he thinks a food reward may be offered. I taught him using the "food chasing game" that Micheal Ellis promotes. Also, Forrest Micke's seminar on motivation and drive-building was great. He used food for most, rapid- fire reinforcement with high value, sometimes a jackpot with filet mignon (no kidding! )
> 
> I am sure you will figure out what floats his boat.


LOVE the food chasing game! Who needs tug when you learn how to do that lol. Highly suggest looking into the food chasing game, Pimg would love it too


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KristiM said:


> Hmm, this thread has taken an interesting turn lol. For one I really don't think that you can judge anything about a dog's behavior/temperament over the internet, so common on this forum and drives me nuts. Two, Wildo, you know more about what it takes to have a highly competetive agility dog than probably 95% of the people on this forum. So hope your not taking any of the negative comments to heart. Have confidence in your training, again with all the courses and experience you have in this particular area I don't forsee you having any trouble whatsoever! Although if you are anything like me (completely obsessed with agility) being patient is going to kill you hahaha.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I would not be too shocked at his behavior to the other dog. Dante is good with my dogs. He works great around others on and off lead but if I let him run free and "play" with others, even with younger, he could be a bit of a butt. Never a fight or anything though.

However, at "the" ex training facility, another dog in passing had an elderly owner with little control on her dog. Her dog lunged at and nipped his nose and boy was I shocked when he went from obedient puppy (5 or 6 mo old) to raging mal, hackled up, teeth bared, etc. he redirected quickly but I haven't had a gad pup fire up like that. Certainly not a behavior we would desire, but he certainly defended himself and redirected at my command. A few months later, same place and now the advanced and as you know busy inside class...an adult gad in passing lunged at him and same reaction.

He never starts it, but he will stand up for himself if they do. 

All mals are not crazy high drive dogs and I hate that people call them gsd's on crack because they are not gsd's period. I am always the one trying to say that here on those threads but no one listens because they knew this one guy once who had a cousin whose friends neighbor once saw a police mal and that therefore makes them a mal expert. It's frustrating. So many misconceptions about these dogs. 


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Her dog lunged at and nipped his nose and boy was I shocked when he went from obedient puppy (5 or 6 mo old) to raging mal, hackled up, teeth bared, etc. ... but he certainly defended himself and redirected at my command.


You and me both then! I was completely in shock, completely caught me off guard- "raging mal" LOL! I was a bit too shocked by it, and the bitch was slightly go aggressive anyway (I learned later). So I didn't give him a chance to try to redirect; I just picked him up. But yeah- shocked... Completely.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Rerun said:


> He never starts it, but he will stand up for himself if they do.
> 
> All mals are not crazy high drive dogs and I hate that people call them gsd's on crack because they are not gsd's period. I am always the one trying to say that here on those threads but no one listens because they knew this one guy once who had a cousin whose friends neighbor once saw a police mal and that therefore makes them a mal expert. It's frustrating. So many misconceptions about these dogs.
> 
> ...


Roust is the same way and showed signs of it at 3 months old, so I agree it's not shocking or nessarily something to be hugely worried about. Just be aware of it and manage accordingly. 

And about Mals...OMG I know! People, even some Mal people have some really weird ideas about the breed.


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