# Coefficient of Inbreeding Sire/Dam



## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

I am considering buying a GSD puppy. The Embark reported the Sire's COI Genetic Result as 43% and the Dam's as 30%. There were no Breed-Relevant Genetic Conditions out of 11 detected or additional genetic conditions of 208 variants tested. This is the Dam's first litter and she's almost 7 chronological years or 57 genetic human years. The sire is 3 chronological years or 33 genetic human years. Should I be concerned with the COI?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do you have the pedigree so you can see yourself how the puppies were bred. Linebreeding itself isn’t bad if done for good reasons by an experienced breeder. You want to look at how close the relationships are along with other data. If you post the pedigree we can evaluate it for you. If you don’t want to put it on the board, you can PM it to a few forum experts (not me). 7 is a little old for a first litter. Why did the breeder wait so long? Have the puppies been born yet?


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> Do you have the pedigree so you can see yourself how the puppies were bred. Linebreeding itself isn’t bad if done for good reasons by an experienced breeder. You want to look at how close the relationships are along with other data.


That information wasn't provided. Only one is AKC registered but both show 100% GSD from Embark. These folks aren't experienced breeders. This is their first litter.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

For what it's worth, I don't breed. I'm concerned about health. I have one GSD that I rescued and unaware of all the issues from poor breeding. I lucked out as she has no issues so far and she's 9 years old.


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## Katiebob (Aug 9, 2021)

Is that definitely the coefficient of inbreeding score you're looking at? Or genetic diversity? 









COI FAQS: Understanding the Coefficient of Inbreeding


By Carol Beuchat PhD You probably see references to the coefficient of inbreeding (COI) often, but do you understand what it means? Here are the answers to some frequently asked questions. What is...



www.instituteofcaninebiology.org





"So, in terms of health, a COI less than 5% is definitely best. Above that, there are detrimental effects and risks, and the breeder needs to weigh these against whatever benefit is expected to gained. Inbreeding levels of 5-10% will have modest detrimental effects on the offspring. Inbreeding levels above 10% will have significant effects not just on the quality of the offspring, but there will also be detrimental effects on the breed."


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

The only test done on the dogs is Embark? What about hips and elbows, DM?
Sorry but this litter shouldn’t have happened. One dog isn’t registered, health testing on both is incomplete, not titled or worked I assume to determine if they should be bred at all. Then comes pedigrees and knowing what is good and bad. If you are concerned about health, go to a reputable breeder. I’d be quite concerned for a dog to have first litter at 7 years old.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Saphire said:


> The only test done on the dogs is Embark? What about hips and elbows, DM?
> Sorry but this litter shouldn’t have happened. One dog isn’t registered, health testing on both is incomplete, not titled or worked I assume to determine if they should be bred at all. Then comes pedigrees and knowing what is good and bad. If you are concerned about health, go to a reputable breeder. I’d be quite concerned for a dog to have first litter at 7 years old.


There were more tests. Below shows the highest COI for the sire whereas the dam is 30%. There are no genetic health alerts.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Katiebob said:


> Is that definitely the coefficient of inbreeding score you're looking at? Or genetic diversity?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read several articles about COI and it seems many champion lines have a high COI because people want to breed champions for show or the high price, I suppose. I'm curious if there is a difference in pedigree COI and genetic COI. So many GSDs have awful health issues due to poor breeding.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Axil Rose said:


> I read several articles about COI and it seems many champion lines have a high COI because people want to breed champions for show or the high price, I suppose. I'm curious if there is a difference in pedigree COI and genetic COI. So many GSDs have awful health issues due to poor breeding.


Thank you for sharing this, BTW!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would pass on this litter.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Sunflowers said:


> I would pass on this litter.


Thank you. I appreciate your opinion .


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Axil Rose said:


> There were more tests. Below shows the highest COI for the sire whereas the dam is 30%. There are no genetic health alerts.
> View attachment 588826
> View attachment 588828
> View attachment 588827
> ...


Embark is not health testing. Were hips/elbows and DM done? Why is 1 dog not registered? What exactly has been done to determine breed worthiness? 
Again, if you are concerned about health, this is not the litter for you. 
They should be concerned for the Dam’s health having first litter at 7 years old.


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## Katiebob (Aug 9, 2021)

Sunflowers said:


> I would pass on this litter.


Me too


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Axil Rose said:


> I read several articles about COI and it seems many champion lines have a high COI because people want to breed champions for show or the high price, I suppose. I'm curious if there is a difference in pedigree COI and genetic COI. So many GSDs have awful health issues due to poor breeding.


There is a huge difference between Pedigree and genetic. My girls Embark genetic is 36% however here is her Pedigree results. So having registered dogs and being able to do multi generational COI calculations is very important.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Katiebob said:


> Me too


Thank you for your opinion - I appreciate it .


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

drparker151 said:


> There is a huge difference between Pedigree and genetic. My girls Embark genetic is 36% however here is her Pedigree results. So having registered dogs and being able to do multi generational COI calculations is very important.
> 
> View attachment 588829


Thank you!!!! This explains a lot and exactly what I was thinking. Sadly, the sire is not registered.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Saphire said:


> Embark is not health testing. Were hips/elbows and DM done? Why is 1 dog not registered? What exactly has been done to determine breed worthiness?
> Again, if you are concerned about health, this is not the litter for you.
> They should be concerned for the Dam’s health having first litter at 7 years old.


This is all that was provided in terms of health tests. I agree, the dam is far too old to have had a litter.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

I would also pass

A few reasons why:
There are many great, purebred GSDs in shelters and rescues (as you know) who need homes. Many, not all, have solid temperaments and health but were dumped for other reasons. IMO if you want a dog from a breeder, support a *reputable* breeder. Careless (or just uneducated) breeders like the one you mentioned, are more often than not why we have so many shelter dogs. Better not to support them and encourage it.

What do we consider reputable?
At the very basic level: 

Both dogs must be registered with a pedigree. Why? Lack of registration means that the breeder: may not have had permission to breed from the person got there dogs. Can’t possibly know the dog’s genetic background. This matters because health and temperament issues and tendencies pop up from generations back. The breeder needs pedigree info in order to match the dogs well, and to know what temperaments these dogs may have. An example is my own dog. Her pedigree is littered with dogs who did well in tracking, who were reactive to other dogs, who had drive, energy and HAD to work (little to no off button until well matured and well worked). My pup has done all of those and my breeder warned me it may come up in her. 
Both dogs need Hips and elbows x-rayed and graded by a third party such as OFA or SV to prove they are healthy. 
Has been tested for genetic diseases, specifically DM
Is not purposefully breeding off colors (blues, liver, white, etc.) or oversized dogs. There is nothing wrong if they pop up, but purposefully breeding these traits shows a lack of concern for breed standard. Breed standard is what makes a GSD, a gsd. Otherwise you may as well get nice mutt 
preferably has been judged by a third party to look how a gsd should look (form follows function, bad structure should be a red flag) Breeders can be blinded by their stake in the matter and their word should not be taken on the structure of their dogs. Hence a show title.
A working title (herding, schutzhund, etc). CGC is not a working title. This helps prove the parents can think and work. GSDs are a working dog, and so before being bred they should be tested to prove they can do so. The parents themselves must be titled, not just the grandparents. 
 EVEN IF you yourself do not plan on titling or showing, these things are necessary. If you want to stack the odds in your favor, you should be looking for breeders who show they know their lines, what they produce, and continue to improve. These breeders place their dogs well and keep them out of shelters. 

I would pass. Spend the money on a solid breeder or find a great dog from another rescue


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> I would also pass
> 
> A few reasons why:
> There are many great, purebred GSDs in shelters and rescues (as you know) who need homes. Many, not all, have solid temperaments and health but were dumped for other reasons. IMO if you want a dog from a breeder, support a *reputable* breeder. Careless (or just uneducated) breeders like the one you mentioned, are more often than not why we have so many shelter dogs. Better not to support them and encourage it.
> ...


Thank you for your thorough rationale for passing on this litter, Wunderwhy6. The reason why I am concerned about rescuing a GSD at a kennel or rescue is that there is a lack of history, such as when they were fixed and vetting, not to mention whether they were abused. I have three rescues now and I lucked out with my GSD, but I adopted her when she was 12 weeks and there was no sign of abuse and so far no major health issues @ 9 years old. I understand that getting a dog fixed too early is detrimental. Two of my rescues were neutered/spayed at less than 12 weeks and 16 weeks and they both have joint issues. My GSD was spayed after her third heat and she shows no signs of joint issues. There is a high-quality breeder in the area, but he charges $3,500 for his pups and up to $35,000 for his highly-trained protection dogs. This is much more than I need in a dog as his are champion lines. Along that line, I do prefer to adopt a pup around 12-18 months.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

just food for thought - there are dogs that Embark shows has having 50% similarity to my female. As close as siblings. And I can't find a single common dog in 7 generations. So that COI is pulling recessive genes from wayyyy back. All of our dogs started from the same small group 130 years ago. Those genes are all still in play.

Your bigger issue is this is a backyard breeder putting out unregisterable puppies. Go find a reputable breeder and even then you could experience health issues. Get good health insurance on whatever puppy you buy.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Thank you for your opinion, Jax08! I do appreciate it .


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Axil Rose said:


> There is a high-quality breeder in the area, but he charges $3,500 for his pups and up to $35,000 for his highly-trained protection dogs. This is much more than I need in a dog as his are champion lines. Along that line, I do prefer to adopt a pup around 12-18 months.


Yes I understand why rescues spay/neuter so young. But it would be nice to find one who did not. 

My own dog was 2500 and this was in 2021. I imagine it may be higher had I bought her now. To me, the price was worth stacking the odds in my favor in getting the dog I wanted. At the end of the day, a good breeder or rescue, it’s up to you. Definitely pros and cons to both. I have an elderly mutt from a gsd rescue as well and she has been wonderful. However, I would pass on any breeder less than reputable simply for the ethical issues. Supporting them is, IMO, supporting temperament problems, health problems, gsd shelter population, etc. Even if it is one person with two nice dogs who just wants one or two litters, supporting them just adds to the idea that it is ok.

There are also breeder rehomes. Older dogs or pups who, for whatever reason, had to be given back to the breeder. I am not sure what their prices range tends to be though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Axil Rose said:


> There is a high-quality breeder in the area, but he charges $3,500 for his pups and up to $35,000 for his highly-trained protection dogs. This is much more than I need in a dog as his are champion lines. Along that line, I do prefer to adopt a pup around 12-18 months.


You aren't spending 3500 on a show dog or a sport dog. You are spending 3500 on an investment of time, training, and knowledge that breeder put in to knowing how to breed a dog. I can't even add up the tens of thousands I've spent on training a dog that I washed from breeding for allergies and the thousands I've spent in medical bills on him. That was a well bred dog that I determined was not breedable. I've spent thousands training my young female who will be bred this fall and then she'll go back into training and titling. Days and weeks on the road when I add that all up to accomplish this. 

$35k for a trained dog? Well I'd have to see how old and what the training is to have an opinion but an IGP3 female still of a breedable age will cost around $15k. An IGP1 of breedable age is $7k-$10k. 

A puppy that will be a pet is worth the same as a puppy that will be a sport or show dog. IMO, that pet puppy should be worth more. We wrap our sport dogs in bubble wrap. Pet dogs have to have super solid nerve to deal wth all that people throw at them. I never understand why anyone thinks a puppy that will be "just a pet" is worth less. Same time, same commitment from the breeder - more chaotic life. 

So look into rescues - they are overloaded right now. Char-Wills in PA just posted almost 20 dogs.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> You aren't spending 3500 on a show dog or a sport dog. You are spending 3500 on an investment of time, training, and knowledge that breeder put in to knowing how to breed a dog. I can't even add up the tens of thousands I've spent on training a dog that I washed from breeding for allergies and the thousands I've spent in medical bills on him. That was a well bred dog that I determined was not breedable. I've spent thousands training my young female who will be bred this fall and then she'll go back into training and titling. Days and weeks on the road when I add that all up to accomplish this.
> 
> $35k for a trained dog? Well I'd have to see how old and what the training is to have an opinion but an IGP3 female still of a breedable age will cost around $15k. An IGP1 of breedable age is $7k-$10k.
> 
> ...


Your points are very valid! I follow several animal shelters and rescues on FB. My heart tugs each time I see listings and Code Red. I have a rescue that was on her last day and listed for euthanization.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> You aren't spending 3500 on a show dog or a sport dog. You are spending 3500 on an investment of time, training, and knowledge that breeder put in to knowing how to breed a dog. I can't even add up the tens of thousands I've spent on training a dog that I washed from breeding for allergies and the thousands I've spent in medical bills on him. That was a well bred dog that I determined was not breedable. I've spent thousands training my young female who will be bred this fall and then she'll go back into training and titling. Days and weeks on the road when I add that all up to accomplish this.
> 
> $35k for a trained dog? Well I'd have to see how old and what the training is to have an opinion but an IGP3 female still of a breedable age will cost around $15k. An IGP1 of breedable age is $7k-$10k.
> 
> ...


Well said


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Saphire said:


> Embark is not health testing. Were hips/elbows and DM done?


Embark has a breed only test but the breed + health kit tests for 172 general genetic conditions, plus 10 breed-relevant genetic conditions, including DM.


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## Civil DNA (7 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> A puppy that will be a pet is worth the same as a puppy that will be a sport or show dog. IMO, that pet puppy should be worth more. We wrap our sport dogs in bubble wrap. Pet dogs have to have super solid nerve to deal wth all that people throw at them. I never understand why anyone thinks a puppy that will be "just a pet" is worth less. Same time, same commitment from the breeder - more chaotic life.


If you wrap your sport dog in a bubble how does it truly get tested. No wonder many IGP dogs get washed out for environmental nerve strength when tested in real world.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Embark has a breed only test but the breed + health kit tests for 172 general genetic conditions, plus 10 breed-relevant genetic conditions, including DM.


Yes you are correct about DM but what about Hips and Elbows?
Reputable breeders do not just do Embark but byb’s do thinking it looks good.
I did Embark on my dog to find out what he carried for coat, not to say his health testing was completed.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Our well breed WL pup we got at the end of Feb was 2500. Well worth knowing, hips, elbows, Pedigree and DM status, plus breeder support, knowledge and guidance on the right puppy with comments like "OH, no, that pup would be to serious for your plans, he will need a real job everyday"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Civil DNA said:


> If you wrap your sport dog in a bubble how does it truly get tested. No wonder many IGP dogs get washed out for environmental nerve strength when tested in real world.


Meh. First, I expect my dogs to live in my house and be pets. I bought them to enjoy, not to soothe my ego thru sports. I wasn't going to address this since it seemed like bait for an arguement but really No argument on this statement. How many sport dogs are in kennels and only get taken out for training and competition? A lot. How do they know how these dogs believe in real life settings? They don't.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Meh. First, I expect my dogs to live in my house and be pets. I bought them to enjoy, not to soothe my ego thru sports. I wasn't going to address this since it seemed like bait for an arguement but really No argument on this statement. How many sport dogs are in kennels and only get taken out for training and competition? A lot. How do they know how these dogs believe in real life settings? They don't.


Wasn’t that the initial purpose of a GSD anyways? To work (or do a sport) all day and then come home and be a family dog.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Meh. First, I expect my dogs to live in my house and be pets. I bought them to enjoy, not to soothe my ego thru sports. I wasn't going to address this since it seemed like bait for an arguement but really No argument on this statement. How many sport dogs are in kennels and only get taken out for training and competition? A lot. How do they know how these dogs believe in real life settings? They don't.


Same here. My dogs live inside the home and they are family members. I am not concerned with AKC or pedigree. I am concerned about health as I would hate to watch one of my furbabies suffer because of health issues. I would, however, do what I could to ease the pain with medication and anything else needed. My two geriatric mixed breeds and rescues suffer from joint pain due to early spay/neuter. Nonetheless, I was only hoping for honest opinions versus baiting a debate. I appreciate everyone's opinion as we all have one and I respect that. I support healthy debates, but not disrespectful debates. I am not a genetic aficionado and hoped for insight. I greatly appreciate the information and opinions.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> Wasn’t that the initial purpose of a GSD anyways? To work (or do a sport) all day and then come home and be a family dog.


I would say the original purpose was to herd and protect the sheep 24/7.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Axil Rose said:


> Same here. My dogs live inside the home and they are family members. I am not concerned with AKC or pedigree. I am concerned about health as I would hate to watch one of my furbabies suffer because of health issues. I would, however, do what I could to ease the pain with medication and anything else needed. My two geriatric mixed breeds and rescues suffer from joint pain due to early spay/neuter. Nonetheless, I was only hoping for honest opinions versus baiting a debate. I appreciate everyone's opinion as we all have one and I respect that. I support healthy debates, but not disrespectful debates. I am not a genetic aficionado and hoped for insight. I greatly appreciate the information and opinions.


Did you think someone was disrespectful? I thought the comment was baity but it brings up a good point on nerves and why dogs get washed or how breeders produce over the top dogs that can't settle. As I learn and have more experience, there are some lines I never want while others love them. Sometimes it's just a personal preference. I've seen dogs get washed from one person and be highly successful with another just due to training techniques. 

Pedigree is important. It can help you stack the deck in your favor for health and temperament. My dog, that I still miss desparately, came out of a shelter. Hit all the big 3 with HD, torn ACL and HS. Was it due to early spay/neuter? Or poor genetics? Or a combination. I wouldn't point the finger at anything directly only say there is a correlation in studies done by reputable universities.

But well bred dogs still get sick. Still have health issues. They are still living, breathing, creatures and sometimes things just go wrong. It's important for breeders to be honest and place the dogs that need to be place instead of breeding them just because there is a title on them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> Wasn’t that the initial purpose of a GSD anyways? To work (or do a sport) all day and then come home and be a family dog.








German Shepherd Dog Club of America (GSDCA) - Breed History


German Shepherd Dog German Shepherd Puppy




www.gsdca.org


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## SFury (7 mo ago)

Wunderwhy6 said:


> Wasn’t that the initial purpose of a GSD anyways? To work (or do a sport) all day and then come home and be a family dog.


Nope. Working dogs were meant to work. They lived with a family, but were rarely part of any family. That's still the case for herding dogs on farms, and their mutt herding breed counterparts.

Don't think for one second those working dogs have a bad life. They are taken well care of because of the effort needed to make them good working animals. They are doing what they love, and living a life that makes them happy.


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## Axil Rose (7 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Did you think someone was disrespectful? I thought the comment was baity but it brings up a good point on nerves and why dogs get washed or how breeders produce over the top dogs that can't settle. As I learn and have more experience, there are some lines I never want while others love them. Sometimes it's just a personal preference. I've seen dogs get washed from one person and be highly successful with another just due to training techniques.
> 
> Pedigree is important. It can help you stack the deck in your favor for health and temperament. My dog, that I still miss desparately, came out of a shelter. Hit all the big 3 with HD, torn ACL and HS. Was it due to early spay/neuter? Or poor genetics? Or a combination. I wouldn't point the finger at anything directly only say there is a correlation in studies done by reputable universities.
> 
> But well bred dogs still get sick. Still have health issues. They are still living, breathing, creatures and sometimes things just go wrong. It's important for breeders to be honest and place the dogs that need to be place instead of breeding them just because there is a title on them.


No...not at all - I don't think anyone was disrespectful! I do think (know) there are many people who know much more about dog genetics, pedigree, etc., than I do, which is why I asked.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

🤦‍♀️ I have been on this forum long enough now to have realized I needed to give more than a single sentence, lest it be understood incorrectly (since none of you can read my mind).
I have read and reread the history of the breed and where it has gone from its conception to today. I understand much of it, though I may often forget pieces. I specifically stated they were meant to work all day first. While I did not expand on what that work was, I hoped anyone who read my post would understand what type of jobs a GSD may have been doing. If I was incorrect in believing this, that is my fault.
That being said, Max has a number of quotes detailing the GSD temperament to be one that will (and I am adding this connection) fit in with a family. The same traits that make them such good all around utility working dogs are the same traits that make them such great family companions…. If properly bred and given proper mental and physical outlets. Hence why, OP, we put such emphasis on only supporting solid breeders.

Editing to add that my use of a rhetorical question was my mistake. I should not have phrased my comment as one.


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## GSD Friend (May 16, 2021)

My three adult rescue GSDs all had their neutering dates on their medical records: one because the breeder was also a vet who neutered him; the other two were picked up as intact male strays at 3 and 5 years old, and the rescue group neutered them. I was glad of their late neutering because of the potential bone issues. Many adult shelter dogs are often neutered only after they are picked up running loose as strays, so it's possible to find many dogs with late neutering.


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