# Fear aggression at home only?



## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

After learning territorial/guard instincts don't show up until a puppy is older, I resigned myself to thinking my German Shepherd has fear aggression. Yesterday at the dog park, 2 strangers showed up with their dogs when Xena was off leash. She walked right up to them wagging her tail and wanting to be petted. When I was walking her about an hour ago, a man approached saying I had a beautiful puppy and wanting to know if I had more. Xena walked right up to him with her ears down and tail wagging wanting to be petted. She didn't bark at all. Earlier today when she was standing on the front porch, she started furiously barking when two strangers walked by on the sidewalk in front of our house. Xena has also behaved this way several times when people she didn't know came over to visit. She barked until we petted her and told her it was ok, then turned friendly and approached them. Why does she only do this at home? Is it possible for a puppy to only be fear aggressive at home and completely normal everywhere else or could this mean there's something else going on?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

How old is Xena?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I honestly don't know, but look forward to seeing the feedback.

I once made a similar post and was told it was basically impossible that he was territorial at such a young age. (I don't remember what his age was, but he was pretty young.) He very well could've been copying his mom, who lived here then, or the other dogs, who barked on others' arrival. 

Now he's almost a year and it hasn't changed much. He will bark at anyone on property, or near the property. High alert. Once told it is ok, he calms down but is *very* interested and will watch their *every move*. If they're actually a visitor and are coming in the yard, he is very friendly once they enter. 

We did do a mega ton of socialization work, so now, he is just peachy with most people *outside* of the home. As long as they don't "rush" him, and give him some space, he will warm up after checking them out. At home, he's a different dog. If you didn't know better, you'd probably think he wanted to kill you if you came on my property. Very territorial.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Courtney said:


> How old is Xena?


She was born January 14, 2012. Our vet won't give her a rabies shot for another week because she's too young. According to the breeder, her sire came from a litter of pups bred for search and rescue. Not sure if that makes a difference.


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

Hmmmm I thought fear aggression usually cropped up in the 6-14 month age range from what I have learned recently. Experts, gladly correct me if that is wrong!

I don't have a whole lot to offer other than I noticed you said she barked and barked at someone until you petted her and told her it was ok. When you pet a fear aggressive dog that is barking and say,"it's ok" you are actually reaffirming their fears and making the problem worse. I know it is very much second nature to say,"It's ok" and pet the dog to soothe it as you would a child, but dogs are way different than people and everything is read differently by them vs. people.

I'll keep watching this thread as I am definitely interested to hear what other folks say, especially since she is a youngster. I can't recall if you were taking her to a trainer? If you aren't, it would be a great idea. Just make sure to come on here and let people know the general area you are located in so they steer you to a good trainer. "Dog Trainers" are a dime a dozen, but a GOOD one is hard to find.

Good luck with that darling girl!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

This is a 3 month old puppy & he maybe lacking some confidence about the world around him & maybe a little fearful which to me at this age does not freak me out. But I don't see how he could be aggressive at this young age....he's a baby.

My recommendation is to enroll in a puppy class (they are so much fun!) and continue to take him out & about. Let him accept pets from people but sometimes pass on that, I would not want my dog as they mature thinking everyone is going to stop & give them attention. All of these things will build his confidence and build a strong bond between you & him.

Honestly, not sure why he barks at home at people & not out in public? Maybe when he's away from the house he's more distracted because it's a new place he's at? If he carries on like that on the porch instead of petting him which enforces the behaviour redirect him with having him come to you, offer a toy.

I'm by far an expert & learning like everyone else here & have not had coffee this morning hopefully something I said made sense lol


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

When he is at home, and he barks at people walking by, he has learned that his barking makes the people go away. He feels safe on his home turf, and feels bolder in acting big and bad. Also, any behaviour that is repeated becomes more natural and instinctive. 

For example, my older dog is a barker. She barks at other dogs, people, birds, noises going by. Now, she quiets when I tell her too, but the interesting thing, is that she NEVER barks at anything when we are out in the yard or walking on leash. Because I'm always out with her, holding the leash and being in control. 

In the house, I'm somewhere else, doing something else, so she barks. I'm away at work and she is home alone, so she barks. When we are in the same space, even when outside, she defers ALL barking to me. She knows it too. Funny thing is that we could be outside, and the neighbor dogs could start barking at something, and she wants to bark too, but instead runs to the door to be let into the house, and if I let her in, she runs to the living room window to bark at the dogs! She doesn't even think to bark outside, I'm there (we are not fenced, I always go out with the dogs), and I decide who or what gets barked at. 

Of course, it took about a year for her to really learn and understand our relationship after I first adopted her. She had been a tied dog with little socialization, lunging and barking was her only entertainement, so it was a lot of work to break her of that and develop an understanding of what self-control is. (the concept was completely alien to her - you have the advantage that your pup is young, bonded to you, and still in the developing stage).


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

kam214 said:


> Hmmmm I thought fear aggression usually cropped up in the 6-14 month age range from what I have learned recently. Experts, gladly correct me if that is wrong!


Nope any age whatsoever! I would say you normally see it in young puppies or at least that has been my experience so far. We also get a lot of older dog and with older dogs it is usually due to an incident such a being attacked.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

I asked the same question on another site and despite her age, almost everyone thinks it's a territorial thing since she only acts this way at home. Apparently, she sounds an alert when strangers approach "the pack house" and if the alphas (us) let her know the strangers are welcome, she greets them. So I have no interest in discouraging this behavior. In fact, I want to encourage it. If her territorial instincts turn into protective when she's an adult, great. If not, she will continue to be an alert barker which is fine with me. If I discourage her, that will teach her never to do anything at all.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I asked the same question on another site and despite her age, almost everyone thinks it's a territorial thing since she only acts this way at home. Apparently, she sounds an alert when strangers approach "the pack house" and if the alphas (us) let her know the strangers are welcome, she greets them. So I have no interest in discouraging this behavior. In fact, I want to encourage it. If her territorial instincts turn into protective when she's an adult, great. If not, she will continue to be an alert barker which is fine with me. If I discourage her, that will teach her never to do anything at all.



You do not want her to bark at everything, as much as you think you might. My golden retriever barks at everything and I never know if its a cat, raccoon, or a person...After you spend the day getting up 20 times to check, you'll understand. Now with my shepherd, she is 7.5 months and she is as quiet as a mouse, unless she really sees something(always a person and never kids) and even then she doesn't bark continuously, but enough to give warning. She seems to sense the difference in different people-no barking at the elderly neighbor, the landlord, etc. It is really nice to have a dog that barks only when needed, I now know when there is a possible problem and I can rely on her to let me know. Barking at everything/everyone is very unreliable and can become a nuisance.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm thinking you need to invite family, friends and neighbors to
visit daily so you can train and socialize and teach her
how to meet and greet. did your pup go to any classes?
do you have a trainer?



Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> Earlier today when she was standing on the front porch, she started furiously barking when two strangers walked by on the sidewalk in front of our house. Xena has also behaved this way several times when people she didn't know came over to visit.
> 
> She barked until we petted her and told her it was ok, then turned friendly and approached them. Why does she only do this at home? Is it possible for a puppy to only be fear aggressive at home and completely normal everywhere else or could this mean there's something else going on?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Barking at everything/everyone is very unreliable and can become a nuisance.


Yep. She's just going to be a noisy brat and you'll never know if it's a "serious" bark or not.
And, the neighbors are going to _love_ a dog who barks at everything that moves...NOT!


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Xena doesn't bark unless someone is very close to our house. When watching people across the street, she doesn't bark at all. I do agree that barking at everything can be a nuisance. Since she's not barking at every little thing, I prefer to encourage her. That way I know I will always have an alert barker.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You are encouraging her fearfulness. 
But it's your puppy, so have at it, I guess. 
You asked, heard from "the experts" (I put that in quotes, because I am not an expert in this area, our dog doesn't bark at people) and don't believe them?

What's alarming is, this dog will eventually be a fearful adult, and possibly even a biter.
What's more alarming is I am seeing how these fearful dogs are created 

She is barking because she is afraid, unsure, etc., and you're rewarding her for it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> Xena doesn't bark unless someone is very close to our house. When watching people across the street, she doesn't bark at all. I do agree that barking at everything can be a nuisance. Since she's not barking at every little thing, I prefer to encourage her. That way I know I will always have an alert barker.



But in encouraging her to bark you are encouraging her to bark at everything. Right now she's not barking at everything but if, no when she figures out that it is a good thing and she gets rewarded, she will start barking at everything and she won't be able to tell the difference between a real threat and the mailman.These dogs are smart and know when there is a possible threat and if they don't know it, they will learn it through socialization and training.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mine did this a couple times when she was smaller and I thought it was her way of protecting and after a full blown argument on here, I took a look at what she was doing and I fixed it. I truly believe that if I didn't fix it then, she would be a mess now. I'm happy the way she's turning out and I'm thankful I took the time to really learn about what she was doing and why. I'm even more thankful for those that argued with me and made me see what I didn't see


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> i'm thinking you need to invite family, friends and neighbors to
> visit daily so you can train and socialize and teach her
> how to meet and greet. did your pup go to any classes?
> do you have a trainer?


I think Xena already knows how to meet and greet since as soon as we tell her it's okay she stops barking and becomes very friendly. We socialize her at the dog park. She's friendly and outgoing at the dog park and territorial at home until the alphas (us) let her know a person is welcome. That is exactly what we want. On training, we're having a few issues. She is so focused on chewing or on other dogs if we're at the dog park, it's hard to keep her attention for more than a few seconds. When I do have her attention, she tries to obey commands before I give them. I taught her how to sit and speak by rewarding with sliced cheese. Now if she smells cheese, she sits and starts barking before I even give the commands, then tilts her head as if to say "I already did it. Treat please?" Unfortunately, there are no classes here specifically for puppies. There is an obedience class that meets every Tuesday. The problem is, I can't get her attention at all when other dogs are around. When I call her name at the dog park, I get no response at all. I'm hoping her attention span will get better. If not, I'll wait until she's 6 months old and pay a professional to board and train her for a couple of weeks. Someone that can somehow make her immune to distractions.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> If not, I'll wait until she's 6 months old and pay a professional to board and train her for a couple of weeks. Someone that can somehow make her immune to distractions.


Please reconsider this. You'll have a dog that obeys somebody else's commands.

Training is as much for the owner as it is for the dog. It builds your bond. You'll learn how to get her attention if she drifts. She'll learn to look to you for direction. 

At this age, everything is exciting and grabs her attention. As training progresses, she will learn to focus more on you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I think Xena already knows how to meet and greet since as soon as we tell her it's okay she stops barking and becomes very friendly. We socialize her at the dog park. She's friendly and outgoing at the dog park and territorial at home until the alphas (us) let her know a person is welcome. That is exactly what we want. On training, we're having a few issues. She is so focused on chewing or on other dogs if we're at the dog park, it's hard to keep her attention for more than a few seconds. When I do have her attention, she tries to obey commands before I give them. I taught her how to sit and speak by rewarding with sliced cheese. Now if she smells cheese, she sits and starts barking before I even give the commands, then tilts her head as if to say "I already did it. Treat please?" Unfortunately, there are no classes here specifically for puppies. There is an obedience class that meets every Tuesday. The problem is, I can't get her attention at all when other dogs are around. When I call her name at the dog park, I get no response at all. I'm hoping her attention span will get better. If not, I'll wait until she's 6 months old and pay a professional to board and train her for a couple of weeks. Someone that can somehow make her immune to distractions.


Instead of telling her its okay, tell her to watch you(watch me command), then she will focus on you. At 3 months she should be able to focus on you and learn the watch me command fairly quickly. This command will redirect her focus to you when needed. Socialization is key but I believe that training goes with it too. You kinda have to do both to move forward. Why would you pay someone to train your dog? The bond that comes with training your own dog is priceless. The someone that can make her immune to distractions is you.....I didn't put mine into a puppy class, she started in a beginner class with older dogs and she has kept up if not surpassed them in focus and learning commands quite easily. You can do this


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I think Xena already knows how to meet and greet since as soon as we tell her it's okay she stops barking and becomes very friendly. We socialize her at the dog park. She's friendly and outgoing at the dog park and territorial at home until the alphas (us) let her know a person is welcome. That is exactly what we want. On training, we're having a few issues. She is so focused on chewing or on other dogs if we're at the dog park, it's hard to keep her attention for more than a few seconds. When I do have her attention, she tries to obey commands before I give them. I taught her how to sit and speak by rewarding with sliced cheese. Now if she smells cheese, she sits and starts barking before I even give the commands, then tilts her head as if to say "I already did it. Treat please?" Unfortunately, there are no classes here specifically for puppies. There is an obedience class that meets every Tuesday. *The problem is, I can't get her attention at all when other dogs are around*. *When I call her name at the dog park, I get no response at all*. *I'm hoping her attention span will get better*. If not, I'll wait until she's 6 months old and *pay a professional to board and train her for a couple of weeks*. *Someone that can somehow make her immune to distractions*.


You've received some good advice on the alert barking, but it appears you're happy with how things are, so no sense in saying much there. Trust me, though, it can escalate and then they're barking at everything. I have four dogs and if just one of the dingbats sees a squirrel in the tree outside the house, they get each one going. It isn't fun. Sure, they calm down when I make a motion of going to the window, checking it out, saying it's fine... but sometimes I just wanna take my nap! Not reassure the dang dogs that the squirrel is nothing to bark at.

I mean no offense in what I'm saying now, but you assure us that you can get the dog to calm and back off by your say-so, but you don't have the dog's attention at other important times - by your own admission. 

A professional cannot make her "immune." Honestly, this is a lazy approach to training - send her off for someone else to do the dirty work while you have the alert dog you want?

Sure, her attention span is diddly, but boy that would be the first and foremost thing I'd be throwing my training work into. Focusing on YOU. Everything should be about YOU right now. If it isn't, take a step, or five, back and make sure it is so. I'm a novice and I'll admit that, but I have learned that training starts with total focus on the handler and you have no foundation to build on if you don't have that. You may easily lose your "control" over her with the barking thing if you don't truly work on this part of the issue. If she can't focus on you at the dog park, I wouldn't go, as you're teaching her it is okay to ignore you.

Enroll in that class -- they'll teach you these things!


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I think Xena already knows how to meet and greet since as soon as we tell her it's okay she stops barking and becomes very friendly. We socialize her at the dog park. She's friendly and outgoing at the dog park and territorial at home until the alphas (us) let her know a person is welcome. That is exactly what we want. On training, we're having a few issues. She is so focused on chewing or on other dogs if we're at the dog park, it's hard to keep her attention for more than a few seconds. When I do have her attention, she tries to obey commands before I give them. I taught her how to sit and speak by rewarding with sliced cheese. Now if she smells cheese, she sits and starts barking before I even give the commands, then tilts her head as if to say "I already did it. Treat please?" Unfortunately, there are no classes here specifically for puppies. There is an obedience class that meets every Tuesday. The problem is, I can't get her attention at all when other dogs are around. When I call her name at the dog park, I get no response at all. I'm hoping her attention span will get better. If not, I'll wait until she's 6 months old and pay a professional to board and train her for a couple of weeks. Someone that can somehow make her immune to distractions.


 when working with shepherds because they are so smart, you need to keep changing the order of commands sit, down ,stay, come or they will do them before asked. They need you to make them think and it will also make them pay more attention to you to get the reward. Sending your dog away for 2 weeks to be trained, would be like sending your kids away to be trained for 2 weeks and thinking they would be done for the rest of their lives, It's a ongoing process


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

llombardo said:


> The someone that can make her immune to distractions is you.....I didn't put mine into a puppy class, she started in a beginner class with older dogs and she has kept up if not surpassed them in focus and learning commands quite easily. You can do this


How did you get her to ignore the other dogs? How did you keep her attention long enough to teach her anything? Xena had no problem learning to bark when I say "speak" and I think she learned it within a few minutes. But she was in her crate and I was standing outside her crate so there were no distractions. If it wasn't for distractions, I'd already have her obedience trained. Distractions are my worst enemy.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

that's what is so great about classes, they learn to listen with other dogs dogs around


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> How did you get her to ignore the other dogs? How did you keep her attention long enough to teach her anything? Xena had no problem learning to bark when I say "speak" and I think she learned it within a few minutes. But she was in her crate and I was standing outside her crate so there were no distractions. If it wasn't for distractions, I'd already have her obedience trained. Distractions are my worst enemy.


Start in your house, put her in a sit position, tell her watch me, as soon as she looks at you, give her a treat and say yes...repeat over and over until as soon as you say watch me she looks at you..keep giving the treats, then start doing watch me when your walking her and other situations where she loses focus. IMO its important especially in the beginning not to repeat the command..so if you say watch me and she ignores you make a noise to get her attention then give her a treat. It works, I swear it does After watch me, leave it is another good command.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Start with zero distractions. Perfect, calm environment. Be sure to have high value treats, something she wants to work for. 

The watch me is great. Reward her for looking at YOU instead of the treat. Repeat. Make it harder. Wave the treat slowly... when her eyes return to you, treat and praise quickly. Soon you should be able to wave that treat all over the place and have her eyes never leave you. That was a cool thing OB class taught us and worked on. Really good exercise. If she's following the treat, instead of you, raise the treat to your eye level, and say "watch me." Slowly take the treat away, and when she continues to look at you and not follow the treat, treat and praise. Repeat. 

As she does better, slowly introduce small distractions. Have your husband or kid walk by. Whatever. A distraction, but a small one... and then work up to bigger ones. If it is too much of a distraction that she fails, step it back to the point she can succeed and stay at that level awhile longer. Keep working it! Eventually you should be able to get to a point that someone can throw a toy, walk by with a dog, etc and she's focusing on you. As we worked this in our class, we got to where the trainer was walking right behind the dog squeaking a squeaky toy.. SQUEAK, SQUEAK, SQEAK and you could just SEE my dog conflicted -- he so wanted that squeaky and so wanted to check that out, but he's doing the watch me thing, knowing his reward is coming...  

Be sure you have a treat that the dog really wants. Holding attention is much easier if they're really wanting what you have. 

Are you doing NILIF? If not, start now! NILIF is such a bond and attention builder. It teaches so many things.

Work your basic commands in a distraction free environment at home.. then bring in some small distractions.. then sign up for class. I promise you will be very glad you did. The trainers will give you tips and pointers to get your dog's focus.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

This^


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You are encouraging her fearfulness.
> But it's your puppy, so have at it, I guess.
> You asked, heard from "the experts" (I put that in quotes, because I am not an expert in this area, our dog doesn't bark at people) and don't believe them?
> 
> ...


This. 100%.


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> If it wasn't for distractions, I'd already have her obedience trained. Distractions are my worst enemy.


Your dog is still not "trained" even if she is perfect in obedience at home. This is a lot of dogs/owners biggest fault. They train, train, train at home and the pup falls apart in the real world. Very normal. That is why you have to:
Teach
Train
Proof

You teach her what she needs to do and how it is done properly. Then you train on it until it is second nature to you and her. Then the hardest part...you have to "proof" her in the real world and she will eventually (with a lot of work) have the same level of obedience in the real world with any distraction. 

Otherwise, she's just a dog with obedience at home and that does not do you any good.

I highly, highly recommend finding a good trainer to help you along. This forum is awesome for advice and tips, but nothing beats live, hands on training.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You are encouraging her fearfulness.
> But it's your puppy, so have at it, I guess.
> You asked, heard from "the experts" (I put that in quotes, because I am not an expert in this area, our dog doesn't bark at people) and don't believe them?
> 
> ...


You had me convinced she was afraid until I saw how she acted the first time we took her to the dog park. She walked right up to complete strangers wagging her tail. No fear, no barking, nothing. How could she possibly be afraid at home in familiar surroundings, but full of courage away from home in unfamiliar surroundings? That makes no sense at all. That's why nobody I asked on the other site thought her barking was caused by fear or fear aggression. Considering the way she reacts to strangers at home vs away from home, territorial instinct is the only thing that makes sense.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> You had me convinced she was afraid until I saw how she acted the first time we took her to the dog park. She walked right up to complete strangers wagging her tail. No fear, no barking, nothing. How could she possibly be afraid at home in familiar surroundings, but full of courage away from home in unfamiliar surroundings? That makes no sense at all. That's why nobody I asked on the other site thought her barking was caused by fear or fear aggression. Considering the way she reacts to strangers at home vs away from home, territorial instinct is the only thing that makes sense.


Ok, then that issue is "solved." I don't think you would believe anyone who said otherwise, anyway? It is so hard to tell anything via Internet. Time tells all I think.

Excuse me if I'm offbase, but it sure seems like the only thing you care about is her guarding tendencies.? You seem to be putting a ton of energy into that, rather than the basic training stuff that most tend to do first. Someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe an obedience foundation sets the stage for all future work. I suppose that's why we're focusing so much on Obedience right now.. I want to get into Agility, but don't want to try until we're at a point I have proper control of the dog. In your case, wanting a guard dog, I would think proper Obedience would be even more important. Just wondering out loud.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The kind of training you are interested in takes years to achieve! No pup will be obedience trained by the time they are 3 months old, I don't care how incredibly smart the pup is, or what background they come from. And sending her away for two weeks to a professional at six months won't turn her into a trained guard dog either. 

At three months, they have short attention spans, work with her no more than five minutes at a time, two or three times a day. Too young yet to be expected to work and not get distracted, but this is a perfect time to start developing focus and eye contact. 

There is only so much a person can do with a six month old in a two week period, even if they are professional dog trainers. A six month old still only has a very short attention span (like, 10 minutes?). There is nothing that they can do at six months at send-away training that you guys can't do yourself with a good basic obedience class. The big advantage here is that YOU learn how to train your dog, have fun in the process, and develop a stronger bond by working together.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Bone-A-Fide Dog Training LLC - About Me!
Dog Trainer Search
Finding Help

Reiterating that this is a baby puppy. I think 4 months is start of another fear period. 

Dog Star Daily has some interesting posts in general.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> Ok, then that issue is "solved." I don't think you would believe anyone who said otherwise, anyway? It is so hard to tell anything via Internet. Time tells all I think.
> 
> Excuse me if I'm offbase, but it sure seems like the only thing you care about is her guarding tendencies.? You seem to be putting a ton of energy into that, rather than the basic training stuff that most tend to do first. Someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe an obedience foundation sets the stage for all future work. I suppose that's why we're focusing so much on Obedience right now.. I want to get into Agility, but don't want to try until we're at a point I have proper control of the dog. In your case, wanting a guard dog, I would think proper Obedience would be even more important. Just wondering out loud.


I'm reading the same thing as you and I agree with obedience and socialization...here is an article I found and posted on another thread which I thought could fit here and there....


_People often purchase GSDs for their keen watchdog abilites:alerting family members to the presence of danger. The problem is that many owners think that encouraging the dog to bark and lunge at the front door and the fence line will make a more protective dog. Big mistake.
The best watchdog is one who is well-socialized. The reason is simple: A socialized GSD can recognize friend from foe; an unsocialized GSD can't, she explains If your grandmother rings the bell, the dog who isn't people friendly will alert in the same manner as when a shifty character is lurking in your hedge. "Everyone is suspect." Additionally, if your dog is antisocial, you'll need to crate her when friends come over because your GSD will not tolerate any visitors.
So if you want an accurate alarm system, buy a mechanized one and have it installed. If you want a great dog who will alert you to someone strange coming on your property, take the time to teach your GSD that people are generally good and come bearing treats. Rest assured that the well-socialized dog--and only the well-socialized dog--will easily be able to read a person's bad intentions, and the dog will alert you._


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Please include the link - would like to read more!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Please include the link - would like to read more!


I typed it out of a magazine I picked up. The magazine is "Training Secrets for German Shepherds", its from the editors of Dog Fancy Magazine, but lots of the stuff in it just reiterates what is said on here all day long..for the most part.. I find it interesting and I've learned a couple new things and new training ideas. This particular article was written by Ginny Altman, vice president and health liaison of the American German Shepherd Dog Charitable Foundation.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thank you!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Rest assured that the well-socialized dog--and only the well-socialized dog--will easily be able to read a person's bad intentions, and the dog will alert you.
> __________________


This is why I don't even care that Ruger has only barked his "big dog bark" on a few occasions now.
He's happy to see people come and I'm glad about that. He's got a rock-solid temperament and I :wub: that about him.

Honestly, unless you get psycho visitors on a daily basis, or live next door to a drug house, a German Shepherd on the premises will deter people, they don't even _have_ to bark! 

Is this the one?
Amazon.com: TRAINING SECRETS FOR GERMAN SHEPHERDS (TOPIC VOLUME 16) FROM THE EDITORS OF DOG FANCY MAGAZINE (TOPIC 16): ROGER SIPE: Books


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> You had me convinced she was afraid until I saw how she acted the first time we took her to the dog park. She walked right up to complete strangers wagging her tail. No fear, no barking, nothing. How could she possibly be afraid at home in familiar surroundings, but full of courage away from home in unfamiliar surroundings? That makes no sense at all. That's why nobody I asked on the other site thought her barking was caused by fear or fear aggression. Considering the way she reacts to strangers at home vs away from home, territorial instinct is the only thing that makes sense.



Please RE-read Castlemaid's post. It explains things the best. 
Your 3mo. old puppy is not being territorial. No puppy on earth would feel that way. At 12-18mos. (and sometimes up to 2yrs) they may feel that way - if confident - but your puppy is unsure of herself, or what's happening and instinctively she feels she should bark. Although it's easy to confuse this, please do not - you're making her more unstable by encouraging it, not less unstable, not "brave"...

YOU are the one who should call the shots for her - she should not be making decisions at this fragile age because dogs mess things up which is why she is barking at NON-threats.
Unless the "visitor" is packing a 12g. sawed off shotgun, she should not be barking at all. 




Castlemaid said:


> When he is at home, and he barks at people walking by, he has learned that his barking makes the people go away. He feels safe on his home turf, and feels bolder in acting big and bad. Also, any behaviour that is repeated becomes more natural and instinctive.
> 
> For example, my older dog is a barker. She barks at other dogs, people, birds, noises going by. Now, she quiets when I tell her too, but the interesting thing, is that she NEVER barks at anything when we are out in the yard or walking on leash. Because I'm always out with her, holding the leash and being in control.
> 
> ...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Is this the one?
> Amazon.com: TRAINING SECRETS FOR GERMAN SHEPHERDS (TOPIC VOLUME 16) FROM THE EDITORS OF DOG FANCY MAGAZINE (TOPIC 16): ROGER SIPE: Books



Yes that is it!! I bought mine at the store


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> You had me convinced she was afraid until I saw how she acted the first time we took her to the dog park. She walked right up to complete strangers wagging her tail. No fear, no barking, nothing. How could she possibly be afraid at home in familiar surroundings, but full of courage away from home in unfamiliar surroundings? That makes no sense at all. That's why nobody I asked on the other site thought her barking was caused by fear or fear aggression. Considering the way she reacts to strangers at home vs away from home, territorial instinct is the only thing that makes sense.


Another poster said this, but I'll reiterate: dogs feel safe and more confident on their own turf than they do when they're in a strange environment. I think what you have here is a puppy that is fearful at heart, but is learning how to cope with it, and is feeling just a bit more brave on her home territory. She is approaching strangers at the dog park in a submissive manner, which is a GOOD thing! It is showing that she is starting to get over her fearfulness. But at home, she's a bit of a brat. She's been praised for barking at passers-by; she is with her "pack", in her own territory, and so feels a bit more bravado. While she's barking at people because she's insecure at heart, she's learned that barking is okay, and by repeating the behavior and being praised for it every time, that behavior is being strongly reinforced. 

This may seem like a good thing, but what you may end up with is a dog who barks at EVERYTHING, which is not only a nuisance, but is counter to what a good guard dog does. A solid, courageous dog doesn't NEED to bark at everything, especially those she has come to know, like the mailman. If she barks at everything, how do you know when there's a real threat and when there's a family walking down the other side of your street? 

Keep socializing! The fact that she's greeting strangers politely at the park, in a submissive manner, is a good thing. She will grow to learn that *most* people are good people, and she doesn't need to be frightened or warn them off. If you keep socializing and training, she will eventually learn discernment, where she barks only at things that are unusual or worthy of alarm.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Keep socializing! The fact that she's greeting strangers politely at the park, in a submissive manner, is a good thing. She will grow to learn that *most* people are good people, and she doesn't need to be frightened or warn them off. If you keep socializing and training, she will eventually learn discernment, where she barks only at things that are unusual or worthy of alarm.


I've never seen Xena try to run from a person. She has shown fear toward other dogs. She runs at first, but she always comes back, barks, and inches her way closer until she's right in front of the other dog and then greeting takes place. She does this on her own, so she seems to have the desire to conquer her fears. On our second trip to the dog park, she played with the other dogs and much less fear but I think the fear was still there because she started to eat dirt and grass at one point until I stopped her. It's adorable watching her efforts to be brave. She's never been one to bark when she hears a noise. Instead she acts curious about where it came from. Her barking at me has increased tremendously ever since I used treats to train her to "speak". Unless she's barking at us or a stranger that gets extremely close to our house, she's quiet and watchful.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> It's adorable watching her efforts to be brave.


This just doesn't quite sit right? I'm not altogether sure how to say what I really want to, so hopefully I don't mumble around with it too much.

I want my dogs to feel/understand that they don't need to be "brave" -- that I am the one in power and will protect them, especially when they're pups. 

I don't think it's truly a matter of bravery, as we see it as a human. It is a matter of confidence. Or, as many will say, a matter of nerves. 

I just can't get it out how I mean it in my head.  Maybe I'm wrong and/or maybe someone can say it better.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

I give Xena the chance to conquer her fears so she will become more confident. She's afraid of dogs, so I take her to the dog park to interact with other dogs.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I give Xena the chance to conquer her fears so she will become more confident. She's afraid of dogs, so I take her to the dog park to interact with other dogs.


No offense, but this is something akin to saying she is afraid of water, so I'll hold her head under water to get her used to it.

I am, generally speaking, pro-dog park. Just depends on the park, the dog and the owner. My dog park has many too many dogs. It is the last place you'd ever want to take a fearful dog, though many do. Maybe yours is better and there are smaller numbers of dogs and better behaved ones.

Just don't flood her in your attempt to make her confident. Repeated positive interactions will help her boost confidence. One awful incident could take it the other way. She's a young baby still, so expecting her to be confident to this extent is asking so much. Do you have any friends with well-balanced dogs for her to spend time with? 

I think you're putting too much human viewpoint into this, with her "conquering" fears. I don't think dogs necessarily "conquer" fears. I think some dogs have fears, and owners learn to manage those fears thru learning the triggers and using various training methods, along with slow and steady exposure to those things. Humans can "conquer" fears, dogs don't. My .02 on that anyway.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Talk to Anthony about dog parks 

In his efforts to "socialize" his puppy at their dog park, she got attacked by another dog.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I love me some dog parks, but if my dog were at all fearful, I'd be extra cautious about them. And I also spend a fair amount of time observing the people already there before I'll bring any of my dogs in, regardless of how confident my dog is. All it can take is one bad incident to cause lifelong problems for a dog. Sure, most steady dogs will bounce back, but there's never a guarantee. 

Perhaps a better way to help her "conquer her fears" would be to associate really good things (treats and fun) with other dogs. Creating a positive association with other dogs is likely to help her more with her fears than most anything else.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your puppy sounds normal for the breed today....a little insecure in public thus the submissive greetings, and showing more aggression at home to new people. Let the pup grow up, keep socializing her and stop worrying....lol.


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

I agree with the others here who've said that a 3 month old pup is much too young to be territorial, but from reading your posts, you seem pretty determined to believe otherwise. I'm not sure what kind of help this board can give you if you already have your mind made up. Your original post asks if this could be fear aggression. To me it sounds like insecurity. If its encouraged it might or might not lead to fear aggression down the road, I don't think anyone can tell, but I do think it's a mistake to reward the behavior at this stage. Regarding the dog park, if you notice that she's uncomfortable then maybe a puppy play date is a better way to socialize her right now. I think you're expecting a little too much too soon.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Your puppy sounds normal for the breed today....a little insecure in public thus the submissive greetings, and showing more aggression at home to new people. Let the pup grow up, keep socializing her and stop worrying....lol.


Are you saying that this pup is feeling more secure at home and therefore showing aggression? I thought most pups this age were not capable of aggression. Maybe I misunderstand your use of the word aggression.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

"Normal for the breed today" is basically saying there's no real stable dogs out there in "cliffspeak". I get that from reading his past posts.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> "Normal for the breed today" is basically saying there's no real stable dogs out there in "cliffspeak". I get that from reading his past posts.


I caught that part, it is just so many say a pup that young can't be aggressive and I was just looking for clarification of my misunderstanding.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> I caught that part, it is just so many say a pup that young can't be aggressive and I was just looking for clarification of my misunderstanding.


A pup that young is likely to be *fear* aggressive but not "protective" or acting from a place of confidence.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

I had a client who had the same thought processes as the OP. She was desperate to have her GSD puppy protect her and her house. She encouraged all the wrong behaviors. When the dog was a year old, the mailman showed up to deliver a package. He knocked on the door, the woman invited him in (right inside the door) to sign for the package. She had her dog leashed to her. The minute he stepped in the threshold, the dog tried to flee by darting backwards and running back and forth behind mom while teathed to her. She tried to slip her collar, and was trying to pull backwards to get away. She couldn't because she was leashed and was so fearful of the mailman being in her house, she attacked him. Bit his thigh, hand, stomach then tried to dart backwards to get away again. The dog still couldn't get away from the mailman because she was still leashed to mom. Everyone was screaming so the dog escalated out of even more fear and finally slammed the guy through the screen door and onto the porch. The mailman ended up with 2 dozen stitches. It happened so fast, there was shock and dismay in the air. Within 2 minutes, the lives of 2 people and the dog changed. 
There were so many things that were wrong with the situation, everyone made mistakes, especially mom. The outcome was grim for the dog. I was contacted for a behavioral consult but that was as far as my involvement was. Mom decided to put the dog down.
Needless to say, encouraging any form of fear aggression because you are desperate for that "protection" is a bad decision.
Just let her grow up, socialize her, and stop being so adamant in having a baby turn into a protector right away. It WILL come in time IF she is confident. If you encourage her fear or put her in situations that create fear, confidence won't come and you could end up as the client above.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i actually would not flood the dog either, i would start with foundation obedience, and fovcus, recalls, etc. i would let the dog socialize one on one wether it be a dog or person, making sure its a controlled atmosphere. don't force things or you will have huge issues. baby steps are better a little bit of positive goes a long way.

why don't you have someone evaluate the pup, and see what they think, easier to see the dog in person.


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

Is it just me or is the OP hellbent on every thread to ask a question but then answer her own questions in the thread and act like no one here knows anything?

Why, OP, ask a question and refuse to believe any of the advice people have given you?

The way that you have been dealing with this pup is most likely going to result in a problem dog. I for one, am just tired of wasting my valuable time to kindly answer your questions and you refute them along with everyone else's good intentioned responses.

It is tiresome and just not nice.

You've made it clear you want her to go to a pro for 2 weeks and expect a perfect desensitized dog...that is an impossible feat to accomplish because YOUR dog will feed off of YOUR energy and training when she is back at home...that is a fact. 

You also cannot just throw her into the fire at a dog park if she is dog fearful. You need to ease her into it so she is comfortable with 1 or 2 familiar gentle dogs first. After a LONG time, when she is better and you have put in a LOT of your time doing it, she can be with more dogs. You seem to expect perfection in a baby puppy and that makes me sad for this poor pup.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

kam214 said:


> Is it just me or is the OP hellbent on every thread to ask a question but then answer her own questions in the thread and act like no one here knows anything?
> 
> Why, OP, ask a question and refuse to believe any of the advice people have given you?
> 
> ...



I'm not being nice? Perhaps you should re-read your post. I do listen to the advice on here. On a previous thread, some people on here said they thought my puppy was afraid of humans and might grow up to be a fear aggressive dog. To avoid this, I was told to socialize socialize socialize. I already knew she feared strange dogs and we wanted to follow the advice on here and didn't have friends in town with dogs, so we took Xena and our other puppy Rascal to the dog park. Unlike Xena, Rascal (Xena's regular playmate) has no fear of other dogs. At the dog park, Xena watches Rascal play with dogs, some twice his size. Watching the fun makes Xena want to join in and she does so on her own. We're not dragging her toward the other dogs and forcing her to interact with them. While at the dog park, we discovered that Xena has no problem confidently approaching humans that are strangers to her. Therefore, several people think her barking when a stranger approaches our house can't be fear related. That doesn't mean I think everyone on here is wrong about everything. That doesn't mean I think I know everything. If I thought I knew everything, I never would've thought of having a professional work with her in the first place. I never expected to be criticized for socializing her and being willing to seek professional help if her focus doesn't improve by the time she's 6 months old.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Rascal being a more confident dog (as it sounds) could also help Xena by giving HER more confidence just as you describe above.

I am not a dog park fan , however, it works for some. 

I just want to say, from your above post, I think your doing RIGHT by not forcing dogs/people 'on' her, let her go at her own pace.

One thing I would avoid if it happens is letting other dogs bully her or scare the heck out of her, that won't help her at all, if you see that happening, I'd remove her and have her with dogs/puppies that she is going to get along with or are neutral. 

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm kinda getting the gist of it,,if she's barking at strangers coming into your house on your property, I can't say she's doing it out of fear (I'm sure it's not protecting, she's to young to know what that even is), but I think she probably isn't the only dog that barks at strangers

Take what you can from the postings you read, use what works for you, ignore what doesn't..


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> While at the dog park, we discovered that Xena has no problem confidently approaching humans that are strangers to her. Therefore, several people think her barking when a stranger approaches our house can't be fear related.


Who said that it "can't" be fear related?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I never expected to be criticized for socializing her and being willing to seek professional help if her focus doesn't improve by the time she's 6 months old.


Actually she could begin training now, in a puppy class. They have socialization periods along with starting on the basics. The best thing about them is you would be there with her being taught how to train her as well. The bond you and your pup builds in these classes is tremendous. It's the basis of your teamwork. 

I don't think anyone is criticizing you for your training plans, but through experience have already learned what an asset it is for you and your pup to attend training classes together instead of the pup going away to be trained.

As for socializing her in a dog park, some have been lucky and had good experience with them, others have been unlucky and now have dogs with FA. Since from some of what you have described, it sounds like there _may_ be some minor issues with your pup, it could take only one incident with another dog to cause further issues. I would be irresponsible if I even thought to take Woolf to a dog park, I also have a very stable Lab, and I refuse to take her to a dog park as well because of irresponsible owners. Only you know the group of dogs and owners that are at the dog park you go to.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Who said that it "can't" be fear related?


I described on another forum how my puppy barks at strangers that come on our property until we tell her it's ok, but walks right up to strangers without barking and wanting to be petted when away from home. I mentioned others had told me she was too young at 14 weeks to be territorial and that it had to be fear. I then asked if it was possible for a puppy to be afraid of strangers at home in familiar territory yet completely fearless of strangers away from home. I won't violate TOS by revealing anyone's identity but here are some responses I received:

"It sounds more like a territorial thing. 
When she is home it is on her turf...and she is protecting it and when you give the the A-Okay cue she calms down and knows things are copacetic. 
She isn't like that in other places because she is on neutral turf. "

"Nope. She's defending her turf. You may have the makings of a very good watchdog there. I'd suggest coming up with a simple, casual, command phrase that will let her know the arrival is a friend. "

"Well, I'm guessing that whoever told you she is too young to be territorial may not be correct, because it sounds like the actions she's exhibiting are exactly that! If she didn't behave after getting the "all clear" signal from you, I'd be worried, otherwise, she's just doing what dogs do. She is reacting to what she sees may be a threat, that's all. Like people, animals are all different, with different temperments. What holds true for one dog may not be true for all."

"Perfectly normal for a shepherd even at that young age. Your house is "Pack territory" and she feels the need to help protect it against interlopers. Once the alphas of the pack accept someone, she knows that she is also to accept them. When outside the house, she realizes she is in another's territory and her behavior changes. I've been around Shepherds since I was 8 weeks old and my parents got a 6 week old pup. As I was an only child and both parents were always either at work or in college, I joke that I learned to speak dog before I learned to speak human."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think half the problem with many pups on this board is the micromanagement of their owners. GSD's are a breed that is a thinker, too many handlers are over the top in the helicoptor type hovoring and the poor pups are being smothered by it. Yet on the other side of the coin, the pups are put into situations that they cleary cannot handle, due to their handlers not reading them correctly. 
Let them be individual with a bit of guidance and structure, but let them grow a bit to bloom. When you see your pup showing certain behaviors, mentally journal it and make sure you adjust your training protocol.
Are we over-micro-managing/over -dissecting everything and making our dogs nervebags? I know genetics are huge in temperament, but adding on to the already stressed puppy is detrimental.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> . Once the alphas of the pack accept someone, she knows that she is also to accept them.


See, we go about this the other way. Everyone is to be accepted, unless we "freak out" for some reason, and then it's okay for our dog to be upset and bark, as well. 
For the average household, an unwelcome guest may appear, what, 1x a year? Maybe 2?? Usually less than that. 
And by "unwelcome" I don't mean the Jehovah's Witness or LDS visiting. I mean, scary unwelcome.
And at that point, your dog will also sense, "this is not right".


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Is it possible that they are wrong and we are right? 

<> DIAMONDS in the RUFF - Barking <>

I do think people are saying go to training, get good training, and have reasonable expectations for a puppy between the ages of 4-6 months and above. You do not really have a "dog" until 18 months - 2 years (imo). 

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/fearimprint.html

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html

Finding a good trainer: How to Choose a Dog Trainer

I hope people take a minute to read those links.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Confident dogs make very little noise.


:thumbup:


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I described on another forum how my puppy barks at strangers that come on our property until we tell her it's ok, but walks right up to strangers without barking and wanting to be petted when away from home. I mentioned others had told me she was too young at 14 weeks to be territorial and that it had to be fear. I then asked if it was possible for a puppy to be afraid of strangers at home in familiar territory yet completely fearless of strangers away from home. I won't violate TOS by revealing anyone's identity but here are some responses I received:
> 
> "It sounds more like a territorial thing.
> When she is home it is on her turf...and she is protecting it and when you give the the A-Okay cue she calms down and knows things are copacetic.
> ...


So you heard what you wanted to hear *there*, so why bother bringing it here? I don't understand that. Double reinforcement? There must be a reason you're needing this -- maybe you're questioning it yourself? 

Your best bet is to compile ALL the opinions, research, info, etc and come to your own conclusion based on *all* of it. *Not what you *want* it to be*. There were definitely things I did NOT enjoy hearing about my dog when he was younger, but taking it in and acknowledging it, working with it, learning about it.. made him a MUCH better dog and me a much better owner. 

Good luck.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> I described on another forum


Ah, I thought you meant people *here* had said that.

I don't know the other forum you're on, but from the replies, it sounds like a bunch of fellow pet owners and not trainers. I disagree that a 3-4 month old puppy can be "territorial" or "protective". A pup that age just isn't mentally mature enough to display that kind of prowess. It's simply an alarm, because she herself is alarmed. As to why she doesn't do it in public... she's off her home turf, she's not feeling bold enough to sound off, and approaches strangers in a submissive fashion, which is a GOOD thing at her age! She barks at home because you've encouraged and praised her for doing so. Dogs aren't stupid! Your pup is quick to learn and seems to have a great desire to please you, and she sounds like a wonderful dog--don't ruin it!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It's simply an alarm, *because she herself is alarmed.*


Exactly!! 
I've seen _weeks_ old puppies, _no matter what the breed_, do this. They know "something's up" but not sure what, when I approach, for instance, to feed, and startle the pups. 

At that point you begin teaching them it's good when people approach, not something to be startled, or alarmed by. The last thing you want to do is reinforce that behavior. Because a confident puppy _does not_ freak out and start barking.

A bark, at that age, is simply "LOOK, LOOK, someone's here!!" 
And that's fine, but again, you want a dog that will bark at a threatening problem, not a non-threatening one like a neighbor or the mail carrier or UPS.


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