# Working dogs vs. Sport dogs



## Jax08

In the past week, I've seen two references to a specific breeder where people did not want one of those dogs because they were dogs bred to WORK instead of dogs bred for SPORT. The reasons were that they wanted dogs for SchH and those dogs were bred for police work and tracking.

Now, am I wrong that SchH has protection work (and don't police train in a very similar way?) and SchH has tracking that would also take the same abilities as a police dog?

So, what is the logic behind this? I stood next to a breeder at the Masters Tournament while a police demonstration was being done and the comment was that SchH does that same thing. What is it that people are looking for in "sport" dogs that they think they won't get from a breeder of working dogs?


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## DFrost

Jax08 said:


> Now, am I wrong that SchH has protection work (and don't police train in a very similar way?) and SchH has tracking that would also take the same abilities as a police dog?
> 
> So, what is the logic behind this? I stood next to a breeder at the Masters Tournament while a police demonstration was being done and the comment was that SchH does that same thing. What is it that people are looking for in "sport" dogs that they think they won't get from a breeder of working dogs?


It is a difference in the intensity of the drives. Generally speaking, the psd candidate will be a dog with more intense drives. SchH is a very regimented, points oriented sport that does contain a few venues that are similar to PSD training. The difference is, what psd's do is not sport, therefore it is often done with more intensity. You see very little pressure put on the dog during the protection phase of the event in Sch. 

PSD tracking is fast paced and moves with the goal of finding the person you are tracking. Sport tracking (footstep) is like watching paint dry.

DFrost


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## Castlemaid

Another way you can see the difference between dogs bred for work and dogs bred for sport is in the obedience. There is a go-go-go hyper flashy-ness and focused intensity on the handler that makes an obedience routine shine and sparkle with excitement in a dog bred more for points in Schutzhund rather than on-the-street work. For example, the prancing heel, the rock-solid focus, the quick-as lightning retrieves where the dog just rockets out and brings the dumbbell back just as fast stopping in front of the handler on a dime - it is breath-taking to watch, but this kind of intensity often comes at the price of a dog that is alway buzzing with barely-contained energy and has no off switch (this is just generalizations - some dogs do have naturally sparkly obedience, AND a great off switch) - but often the price for this sparkly-ness are nerve issues. Dogs that are always 'on' and always do everything with hyper energy often have other behavioural issues or performance issues like being unable to cap drives or be quiet in the work. 

Another difference is seriousness - the civil dog vs. the sleeve-oriented dog. Again, some of it is training. You can get a dog that is genetically civil (will bite for real), and train it to be only sleeve oriented, but if you have a sport dog that mostly works in prey drive and rarely taps into his defense drive, you can push and challenge the dog all you want, it may not bite anything other than the sleeve - in his mind, biting for real is a real fight and the dog does not want to go there. 

Our helper develops RCMP dogs and their handlers, and we have some handlers in our club, bringing their young prospects up, and seasoned handlers coming to club to do the tracking and protection maintenance work. Our helper always says that the ground-work and basics for tracking and bite-work for police dogs and Schutzhund dogs are the same. But where it changes is when the police dogs move on from the exposed sleeve to the hidden sleeve and the bite-suit. Moving from the exposed sleeve to the hidden sleeve is where you see wich dogs are more 'sport' dogs, and which ones are 'real' dogs. 

Took me a while too to understand what people were talking about when talking about real dogs and sport dogs - being able to see the difference in person really helped.


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## Catu

To me the main difference is that Schutzhund is there to define if a dog has the basics to go to a real work program and from there those to compete to higher and higher levels ask for more precision more than anything else. You like it or not, a Schutzhund, even a world champion level is prepared to work in a grass field and to work with a helper that dress in a certain way, use certain equipment and move in a certain mode, that are hidden behind a certain number of certain objects with always the same shape. 

In real work, be it obedience, tracking or protection you train not for precision, but for reliability under all kind of circumstances. Those who do real work with their dogs, be it police, military, SAR, PPD, herding, whatever work for the unpredictable and need to trust that the job will be done by the dog no matter how the factors may change and here is where all that has be done in the previous post come into scene.



Castlemaid said:


> Our helper develops RCMP dogs and their handlers, and we have some handlers in our club, bringing their young prospects up, and seasoned handlers coming to club to do the tracking and protection maintenance work.


Sorry, what is RCMP?


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## Jax08

Royal Canadian Mounted Police?


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## Castlemaid

> Sorry, what is RCMP?


Royal Canadian Mounted Police:









The 'Mounties' - World famous police force. The RCMP have their own dog breeding program and a very in depth and intensive dog handler program.


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## Catu

Of course I've heard of them! Great to hear about their breeding program, that is exactly the kind of things our breed needs, and I bet a good interesting place for cientific research of working dogs in general. BTW, what a gorgeous dog on the second picture!


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## Fast

Jax08 said:


> So, what is the logic behind this? I stood next to a breeder at the Masters Tournament while a police demonstration was being done and the comment was that SchH does that same thing. What is it that people are looking for in "sport" dogs that they think they won't get from a breeder of working dogs?


Trust your gut. Maybe you can't find the logic because people are BS you? Look at the pedigrees of most police dogs and you will find sport dog parents. So why would the sport dogs and LEO dogs be genetically different? 

And if you find a breeder that is "breeding for police dogs" look at the percentages of dogs produced vs those being used by law enforcement. Most are producing far more pets than service dogs. 

Jax trust your own brain and intelligence. It's gotten you this far.


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## Castlemaid

Catu said:


> BTW, what a gorgeous dog on the second picture!


One reason I picked that picture to post - the other reason is that the handler is pretty nice too. :wild:


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## Catu

Castlemaid said:


> One reason I picked that picture to post - the other reason is that the handler is pretty nice too. :wild:


Cant argue that one!  

And the other post is not worth arguing...


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## Fast

Catu said:


> You like it or not, a Schutzhund, even a world champion level is prepared to work in a grass field and to work with a helper that dress in a certain way, use certain equipment and move in a certain mode, that are hidden behind a certain number of certain objects with always the same shape.



Really Catu? How do you know? Have you ever trained a dog for world level competition? Have you ever even put a title on a dog?

I know of nobody that is competing at a high level that only trains on a sport field. When you want to compete at a high level you have to train beyond what is expected on the trial field.


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## wolfstraum

In any animal - when you breed for competition - or for structure - you lose the total balance that is ideal.

"Sport" dogs are those who have been selectively bred for the intense ball/toy/prey that makes training with prey object easier....ofttimes this is at the cost of balance in fight and appropriate civil aggression....high point dogs and BSP winners get breedings, whether it is appropriately balancing the female or not - the names sell puppies!!! 

A real working dog may not have that insane ball drive. It may be more difficult to get the pretty heeling that is the fashion now....there are many dogs who are bypassed and said to produce poorly because they are not producing that ball drive....

It is no different than breeding for color or show structure...making another division in the breed..

I have two female lines - one female is very "sporty" - intense insane ball drive, the other has super ball drive - but added is the true appropriate civil aggression that is what is needed for dogs doing "real work" - interestingly, this dog also tested very well under Shelly Fritzke for herding instinct...and loves children, even though she is rarely exposed to them. In breeding, I can balance these dogs out - the sporty dog was bred to dogs chosen to bring in more appropriate social aggression - some well known, others you would say "??who???" - same with the 'real' dog....very few people have ever heard of the males I chose for her....but they have been chosen first and foremost to bring balance and stability....

There should be no difference in sport vs real....it is the judges and thus the buyers who drive the market for what gets bred for the most part.

Lee


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## wolfstraum

People that I know that train for higher levels - including world - work hard to find varying surfaces to track, train in all sorts of environments and on every good helper they can get to....

Lee


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## Catu

Fast said:


> Really Catu? How do you know? Have you ever trained a dog for world level competition?


No. Have you?

But I've worked with SAR dogs at 11500 ft altitude in the mountains and inside the guts of a copper mine, so maybe I learnt something about training for different environments.

For the record, I do believe that for achieving a high level of precision they have to train outside the box, but it keeps being a controlled environment. Anyway, it was not my point, but about the end goals, which Lee described better.


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## GSDElsa

I don't really think anyone can argue that there can be som esignificant differences in GSD's that do sport and those that do something like police work. How many times on here have we heard people say "you wnat to do high level sport--don't go with DDR!" 

I also think there are dogs out there that do great with the routine of SchH, but wouldn't do so well skidding accross a car hood and wrestling with a jerk on the ground.

Being good at sport does not mean a dog would be good at being a police dog. Nor does it mean it won't. I think it's all highly dependant on what you have in from of you.

I do think there are pedigrees that are naturally better suited for one type of work over another.


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## DFrost

Fast said:


> Look at the pedigrees of most police dogs and you will find sport dog parents. So why would the sport dogs and LEO dogs be genetically different?
> .


I've purchased 15 dogs for police work in the past two years. I couldn't tell you the pedigree of a single one of them. As a trainer for a department, pedigrees are useless to me. What matters is nerve, suitability, the drives I'm looking for and physical health. Since most departments buy dogs that 18 months or better (on occasion slightly younger) we are able to test the dog to determine if it has what it takes. 

DFrost


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## carmspack

Catu I thought it was very interesting that you brought up the copper mine and the high altitude SAR.
I have had dogs that were used by a university in British Columbia as an experiment to see if dogs could be taught to locate copper veins in the mountain side . 
I have also had a few dogs that were (rcmp trained) SAR , Avalanche dogs . 
From the same dam's line we had dogs that were used in the Mt St Helen's erruption , rescue efforts.

The difference is --- with police work there is NO margin for error . 
Fail to find an explosive , deadly results.
Fail to find that man in ambush, potentially deadly results.
Fail to hang in and grapple the person being apprehended into submission , potentially deadly results.

The drives must come from the inner core , bred in the bone, self confidence and daring , persistent , forgiving of handler error or confusion , clear in the head.

There is a meter that is running. I can't wait for a dog to be two years old to get his act together for a BH , or another year to try him at his first trial for SchH.
By two many are already trained and certified and working to an exacting standard. 

The handlers are not dog experts , no more than the person racing to a call is not a mechanic for his car. This means the dogs have to have resilience and not be so sensitive to the occasional abrupt handling . 

If a dog fails he does just that fails - time for career change .

In sport you have the luxury of conditioning a response , enabling a dog to find his way through a weak area . Sometimes a team , including a decoy assists that dog , or members of that team are deliberately sought out to help the dog pass the trial. 

In my breeding program I aim for dogs that are environmentally confident from first exposure , dogs that are wanting to link up and work in partnership with the handler, as best as I can , as close as I can to "genetic obedience " . 

This is interesting as it is the first time where I have seen an account of a dogs year-end performance report.
It happens to be Strike's , who I chose, raised, prepared and offered http://www.kawarthalakespolice.com/2010yearendK9report.pdf
He has just come up for retirement .

The previous team "Flint" was mine also.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Packen

A good dog is a good dog, it can do it all. Here is a nice description,
Sport Dogs vs. Real Dogs


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## carmspack

why is the breeding important ?

Yes , dogs with a sport background are used .

The overall difference as Lee ms Wolfstraum says is the maintenance of an overall balance.

Do they end up in pet homes. Sure. There is a real difficulty in that sport people don't give you a chance , and depts. find it very easy to go to a broker who has 40 dogs to catalog shop . If the dog fails , and they do fail , then there is a backup to replace the dog - no sweat.

In my case . I tend to have interested parties come around early to see what I am holding back. They check the dog out along many points of the dogs getting some age on them. Many times the dogs are borrowed by them to take to the head trainers , or are borrowed to give them a test -- like last summer where it rained almost every day and they took the dogs tracking and where blown away because these 7 month old dogs were enthusiastically tracking in sheeting rain and standing water on the fields.

Are the dogs good for homes . Yes . Because the dogs have an on and off switch and are sound , and stable , and confident , and willing to learn . 

the program is what the program is and won't be changed for the whims of a "market" . There is a concept of correct that is respected .

They must be robust in health . There is no exaggeration of angulation , they are well knit trotting build, able to be athletic and long lasting . There is no preference for colour or breeding or holding back because something is a certain colour. 

interesting paragraph in the von Stephanitz book , page 380 

"The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs: and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs. Breeding by shepherds, which in the heyday of German sheepherding some 60-100 years ago was a pure utility breeding, but in certain stocks lead to considerable pedigree-breeding, must be an example to us amateurs, for it achieved on a sound basis what we need, and wish for: namely, a stock of hard, keen and efficient working dogs>

xxxx departing from quote to provide this reminder. The book was published in 1925 . Von Stephanitz helped form what we recognize as the unification of several regional groups AND outside breeds with similar function in the late 1880's . He was making a comment on German sheepherders breeding criterian 60 to 100 years prior , taking that then to the early 1800's and before.

back to quote:
"In contradistinction to utility and working breeding, there is sporting breeding, which indeed procures a temporary advance, but which, however , is always succeeded by deteriortation , --- I refer to the warning example of the Scottish shepherd dogs and some other races, -- for it is not done for the sake of the dog, nor does it tend to make him more useful, but is done only for the vanity of the breeder and the subsequent purchaser . That word "sport" always means competition for the highest , it is true, but, this competition always reaches its high water mark in Exhibitions, which, just because they demand no real capabilities, (as for example in the breeding of race-horses) lead people only too easily astreay to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty, instead of on the substance that really matters ".......

for goes on talking about breeding for commerce for the next for pages 


It is very important to keep an overall balance. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cassadee7

I am not a SchH person, and very new to working lines, but find this thread fascinating.

I have a question. 

Say a person like myself is looking for a dog specifically for dog sports, like AKC obedience, dock jumping, tracking, agility. And this dog will be a pet in the family home as well. Do you think a person like this, who wants a very active, biddable dog to do those specific sports, could get what they want from either kind of breeder? Would there be an advantage to looking at a breeder of mainly successful SchH dogs, or a breeder who is a police officer and breeds successfully for police and bomb dogs?


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## Jax08

Thank You, Lee and Carmen! Your posts are downright logical!


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## Fast

Catu said:


> No. Have you?
> 
> But I've worked with SAR dogs at 11500 ft altitude in the mountains and inside the guts of a copper mine, so maybe I learnt something about training for different environments.



That's very interesting and I'm sure you know all about mining and SAR dogs, but you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to knowledge about what top level schutzhund dogs are doing. 

And the answer to your question is yes.


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## Fast

GSDElsa said:


> I don't really think anyone can argue that there can be som esignificant differences in GSD's that do sport and those that do something like police work. How many times on here have we heard people say "you wnat to do high level sport--don't go with DDR!"


The police dog brokers I know are not very enthusiastic about DDR dog either.


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## Fast

DFrost said:


> I've purchased 15 dogs for police work in the past two years. I couldn't tell you the pedigree of a single one of them.


Just because you don't know them dosen't mean that they don't exist. But if it's GSDs, I'd bet that they have titled schutzhund dog's within 2 generations. And these so called police dog breeders are using the genetics created in a sport dog program.


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## Jack's Dad

I like these threads because even with the different opinions I learn about GSD's. 
Wish Cliff, Vandal, Mrs. K and a few others would throw their knowledge into the discussion.


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## DFrost

Fast said:


> Just because you don't know them dosen't mean that they don't exist. But if it's GSDs, I'd bet that they have titled schutzhund dog's within 2 generations. And these so called police dog breeders are using the genetics created in a sport dog program.


Perhaps they do. As a trainer however, that doesn't mean much to me. It's purely in selection. I can see where it might be important to a breeder. Many vendors, that deal with PD's, at least not the ones I deal with. don't really pay attention to it either. They know what the customer wants and what the customer wants isn't on paper. 

DFrost


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## onyx'girl

In my limited observations...I see both types. And they both can do SchH just fine. 

But I think the dog that is more civil is more of a challenge as far as SchH goes...tracking may not be as deep nosed/tunnel vision. The dog is aware of the surroundings more. Food on the track loses its value after awhile. The dog needs more of a reason to search.
Then protection isn't about the sleeve but the threat and thrill of the fight.
Obedience is just a way to get to the reward. 
And the reward may be not as valuable after over-use, so changing it up is necessary.
Even if the dog is 'genetically obedient', I see the dog that thinks as more difficult to progress...because sometimes they over-think instead of just going through the motions.


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## robk

Carmen, I always love reading your posts! The report on Striker was also an interesting read.


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## carmspack

Onyx Girl , I guess I am tired, tryptophan from our Thanksgiving turkey dinner kicking in . 
Could you explain it any better.

Tracking for a working dog , for a police dog , requires strong hunt and search drive . I would hazard a guess and say that locating , tracking down, detection could well be 75 to 80 % of police business (canine). Apprehension, aggressive assists are used only when needed . 
The "guy" isn't going to strike any decoy poses .
So who needs more of a reason to search?
The dogs I start off are not started off on food (ever) , and the reason , all the reason that they need is that they are tracking fanatics , and the chance to track is all they need.
I have letters from rcmp officers in Prince George BC , praising a dog from my program called Cedar
who was doing level 2 tracks at 6 months of age . 
The training is tracking through drive .

Obedience is a way to get a reward? Or obedience is a way to co-operatively work , and the reward is the recognition of the handler , approval and praise . 
The genetically obedient dog has this desire and this innate natural ability that can easily be applied to work.

Instead of more difficult to progress -- the progression is very smooth and previous learning is retained and can be built upon .

Can a dog like this or a dog from a sport program do agility and be pets and do sport or other things -- YES. Each one . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl

> So who needs more of a reason to search?


 Sch tracking is about finding an article....which for my dog gets a bit boring. He sometimes air scents..which is natural/but points taken in a SchH trial. 
He is more into the hunt/ I think if he was challenged more, he would be more enthusiastic than w/a SchH type track.

The point I was trying to make was most sport dogs will engage because the ball or food is their reward, they bite the sleeve as a reward~the fight is not what they focus on, but a civil dog will get bored with the repetition of the same ol' same ol sleeve/slip, game back on.
I think my post was from my training session today. My dog seems to get bored if he isn't challenged. Or he loads up if he isn't rewarded with something of value. He is stable/clear headed for the most part, but he seems to need more challenge to keep him engaged. 

My training director/helper is keen and aware of the different types and knows how to work them as individuals. If we were with a different trainer, I'd have my work cut out for me. My dog is very biddable, but he needs a reason to do what is asked, and his reasons aren't the norm. He doesn't challenge me either, but isn't one that goes with the flow just to be compliant. He thinks. I like that about him.


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## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> I like these threads because even with the different opinions I learn about GSD's.
> Wish Cliff, Vandal, Mrs. K and a few others would throw their knowledge into the discussion.


Well, it pretty much has been all said. 

However, that being said, sport dogs can make good working dogs as well, it just depends on the dog. If the genes are there, they are there. 

What I've seen in the past years is that a sport dog can make a wonderful and great working dog but a working dog sometimes doesn't make a great sport dog because it's just not what people want to see. 

A sport dog with great drives can make an exception search dog. It could probably also make a great patrol dog, however a true patrol working dog kind of type... sha... what some people call a "real dog" doesn't make a good sport dog because it's not what the Judges want to see. 

A dog like that isn't wanted on the sports field. Times have changed. Schutzhund already has an Image Problem in Europe and there are constant battles. In Austria they are still trying to ban Schutzhund Sport and people worry that they might try to do that in Germany too. Right now there is a petition going on to ban the prong collar. The electro shocker is already banned, now they are going for the prong, what's next? Schutzhund Sport? 

So they are trying to portray Schutzhund as a Sport. For that you need flashy, happy sport dogs that can keep up the image. A real dog raises way too many problems. Is not as reliable on the field as a sport dog. 

Another reason is because most handler just couldn't handle a dog like that. They are not as easy to train, not as biddable, they could go against the handler, against the helper, they are tough and just not as reliable. So if you want a real, very serious dog that doesn't see Schutzhund as a game, that is all great and cool but you won't win the points that the flashy sport dogs get. Not speaking about the fact that a lot of people don't even get past the SchH1 with dogs like that. 

Quite a few, very very good dogs failed the Sch2 or 3 numerous times because they were in the hands of incompetent handlers. One they were passed on to different handler and then, eventually ended up in the hands of the perfect handler they sky rocketed and excelled at every competion. They did climb their way to the Bundessieger Pruefung and compete though.


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## Jack's Dad

Mrs.K said:


> Another reason is because most handler just couldn't handle a dog like that. They are not as easy to train, not as biddable, they could go against the handler, against the helper, they are tough and just not as reliable. So if you want a real, very serious dog that doesn't see Schutzhund as a game, that is all great and cool but you won't win the points that the flashy sport dogs get. Not speaking about the fact that a lot of people don't even get past the SchH1 with dogs like that.


How long does it take to recognize a dog like this?


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## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> How long does it take to recognize a dog like this?


It depends on the person who is looking at the dog. 

One person looks at the dog and can tell from the bodylanguage, the way the dog is presenting himself and the posture and another person looks at the dog and hasn't got a clue what he's got in front of him.


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## Jack's Dad

Mrs.K said:


> It depends on the person who is looking at the dog.
> 
> One person looks at the dog and can tell from the bodylanguage, the way the dog is presenting himself and the posture and another person looks at the dog and hasn't got a clue what he's got in front of him.


 I understand what your saying here.

I wonder though based on the original question and some of Fast's responses, do some breeders focus on the traits that might make a great police dog?
While other focus on sports dog traits. 
It sounds like two different type dogs from the responses.
To put it another way, a good sports dog may not be a good police dog or vice versa. Is that correct?


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## Mrs.K

Jack's Dad said:


> I understand what your saying here.
> 
> I wonder though based on the original question and some of Fast's responses, do some breeders focus on the traits that might make a great police dog?
> While other focus on sports dog traits.
> It sounds like two different type dogs from the responses.
> To put it another way, a good sports dog may not be a good police dog or vice versa. Is that correct?



Yes, absolutely. While you can get both types within the same litter if you are lucky, there are breeders that specifically breed for the working dog type or sport type. 

You can, sometimes, see breeders that are searching for absolutely extreme dogs that can not be handled by everyone. And then you see those that say "Why would you want to breed dogs like that, who needs these kind of dogs?"


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## carmspack

not extreme dogs of any sort here.

Balance -- keeping all the drives and instincts in tact so that they are there in real to call upon , or not. Nothing has to be formed through training , which you can get away with in sport , but I wouldn't want to see it in work.

Work includes everything from guide, to farm application , personal companion and guardian.


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> not extreme dogs of any sort here.
> 
> Balance -- keeping all the drives and instincts in tact so that they are there in real to call upon , or not. Nothing has to be formed through training , which you can get away with in sport , but I wouldn't want to see it in work.
> 
> Work includes everything from guide, to farm application , personal companion and guardian.
> 
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Yep. There are those, like you, who breed for balance, and those who breed for defense, sharpness and agression to gain the type of working dog they are seeking for. I'd prefer the balanced out dog. Why would you need a dog in law enforcement that barely anyone can handle? Police Officers are not necessarily better in handling dogs, than sports people.... so they could end up having the same darn problem.


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## carmspack

I'll give you an example . A dog which I have seen perform here and there at trials , (big well known show kennel - North America) always had a team member , easy to identify because of the matching "team" T-shirts and logos , "double handling" a dog while the dog was doing bite work. I look at the bigger picture. The bite work was okayish , but every once in a while during the bite work the dog would look past the decoy where , to the decoys back , there would be that team member , bringing out the ball to toss in front of her , not too conspicuous . Then the dog would go back to the bite work. Upon the routine finishing the handler and dog would exit , the dog would very happily rush to the other team member who would take the dog aside and give a little bit of ball play. 

I think that this dogs bite work was conditioned through the dogs prey/play drive , taking the stress away with the reward for play after.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> I'll give you an example . A dog which I have seen perform here and there at trials , (big well known show kennel - North America) always had a team member , easy to identify because of the matching "team" T-shirts and logos , "double handling" a dog while the dog was doing bite work. I look at the bigger picture. The bite work was okayish , but every once in a while during the bite work the dog would look past the decoy where , to the decoys back , there would be that team member , bringing out the ball to toss in front of her , not too conspicuous . Then the dog would go back to the bite work. Upon the routine finishing the handler and dog would exit , the dog would very happily rush to the other team member who would take the dog aside and give a little bit of ball play.
> 
> I think that this dogs bite work was conditioned through the dogs prey/play drive , taking the stress away with the reward for play after.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


And that was at a show? 

I know that ball conditioning is not all that uncommon. A lot of people reward their dog with a ball during Schutzhund sessions but at a show? That open? So everyone can see it? Why am I not surprised...


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## carmspack

I can't say that sharp, defensive, dogs are the dogs of choice by P depts. They are a liability , which in the end may jeopardize the existance of the entire unit.

If residents of the Greater Toronto Area , want to see police dogs -- all in one place , on October 17 , at the Rogers Centre in Toronto , there will be the Police Games .

I believe the admission is $15?? which goes to the Police Widows fund . 

Will do a quick search on this for more information.

Carmen


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## carmspack

Yes it was at a show.
They were subtle . I mentioned to someone who I have known since the 70's and they seemed annoyed with me that I caught it . They saw it too , but the message was more , too leave it alone. 
What would you say that at one trial , the decoy was switched for ONE entrant , to a decoy that the dog was familiar with.
Everyone in the club knew and was on board -- I was the outsider . 
I was in for an AD and BH that day -- got both .

Carmen


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Yes it was at a show.
> They were subtle . I mentioned to someone who I have known since the 70's and they seemed annoyed with me that I caught it . They saw it too , but the message was more , too leave it alone.
> What would you say that at one trial , the decoy was switched for ONE entrant , to a decoy that the dog was familiar with.
> Everyone in the club knew and was on board -- I was the outsider .
> I was in for an AD and BH that day -- got both .
> 
> Carmen


It's annoying but sadly a very common practice.

When I wanted to take the BH with Yukon in Germany I was not allowed to participate because it was a closed "BH" meaning that they did not want to have anyone watching what was going on out there. :help:


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## Mrs.K

By the way, that is her.


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## Mrs.K

Oh my... I just posted that picture in the wrong topic. LOL
Sorry about that. That is the Kassler Kreuz bitch I'm getting


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## jcsites

To have a working and sporty dogs in one pet is amazing. I wish i had one...


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## Mrs.K

jcsites said:


> To have a working and sporty dogs in one pet is amazing. I wish i had one...


That is what the GSD should be like. The GSD should be versatile enough to pretty much do anything you want with him.


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## cliffson1

Twenty five years ago it was very common to see sch dogs transition to police patrol type dogs. Today there are still some nice sport dogs that can transition to police work, but the numbers are dwindling. 
Extremes in requirements for show and work come with a price of the overall balance needed in police service work. The show structure and temperament has gotten away from the strengths needed for police service work in general. The sport drives and temperament has gotten away from the police service work in general. The environmental sureness needed in police work is very important, whether it is nclimate, footing, surfaces, night work, and most importantly WORKING in an UNKNOWN situation. The other thing that Carmen mentioned that is so important, is that a police service dog must make significant progress in (12 to 24 weeks) or they will wash out. The too soft dog that sport will take 2 years to get a title on, or the too driven dog that requires a year and half to become reliable on recalls or outing will often wash out. It takes a balance of strength and clearheadedness that is not always needed to be a good sport/show dog today.
If you take the "sport" that most closely simulates police service work, KNPV, and talk to the practitioners and trainers, and ask them how successful is the "general Sch sport dog" in doing this work and they will tell you the numbers have dwindled because the Sch dogs are different in many respects from dogs of earlier years. Sure, there are some sport dogs that can do it, but it is more often that they are not successful. If you study the pedigrees of the dogs that are participating in KNPV and the dogs that are doing high level sport, you will see a clear pattern of the dogs in KNPV and the dogs in top sport. There is some overlap, for sure, but in studying sport lines there is a trend toward the higher prey dogs through Troll/Aly/Asko, while many of the KNPV dogs go through Timmy/Nick/Falko v haus Sindern, and Tiekerhook breeding. 
There are also many police service dogs that are from "non descrip breeding and structure, as opposed to in the sport/show world almost all the dogs are from the sport/show lines.
These are generalities, and there are exceptions to these assertions, but in general these differences hold true.


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## carmspack

The environmental sureness needed in police work is very important, whether it is nclimate, footing, surfaces, night work, and most importantly WORKING in an UNKNOWN situation. The other thing that Carmen mentioned that is so important, is that a police service dog must make significant progress in (12 to 24 weeks) or they will wash out. The too soft dog that sport will take 2 years to get a title on, or the too driven dog that requires a year and half to become reliable on recalls or outing will often wash out. It takes a balance of strength and clearheadedness that is not always needed to be a good sport/show dog today.

Cliff reiterated my sentiments . So how are these attributes not a "positive" for home or sport field? Beats me .


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## ladylaw203

cliffson1 said:


> Twenty five years ago it was very common to see sch dogs transition to police patrol type dogs. Today there are still some nice sport dogs that can transition to police work, but the numbers are dwindling.
> .


 
I will have to respectfully disagree. The planes are loaded with titled dogs coming from Europe everyday. That is where the vendors purchase them. Now, does that sport title mean the dog will make a patrol dog. No,however I have been doing this for about 25years and we are still getting very nice titled "sport" dogs from overseas. The main problem we are having finding dogs with that we are competing with DOD and all kinds of vendors providing dogs for contract work overseas. Labs are sky high too.


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## Freestep

Mrs.K said:


> ...they could go against the handler, against the helper, they are tough and just not as reliable. So if you want a real, very serious dog that doesn't see Schutzhund as a game, that is all great and cool but you won't win the points that the flashy sport dogs get.


What I always wonder is how a working police dog would approach a SchH blind search. I have a feeling that the dog knows good and well where the helper is, but he searches each blind in succession because the handler asks him to (biddability). Whereas in a real-life situation, you wouldn't want the dog to waste time going around all the blinds when he knows exactly where the "bad guy" is. 

With guide dogs, I think they call it "intelligent disobedience" when the dog refuses to obey a command that would put he or the handler in danger. I suppose a police dog must do the same, in certain situations. That surely would cost points on the SchH field, but could save a life in the real world.

OTOH there would be times in the real world where you would need to the dog to defer to the handler; for example, if the bad guy has a hostage, you don't want the dog blasting in there to apprehend. So there is a delicate balance between biddability and intelligent disobedience. Most importantly, you have to be able to trust your dog. On the SchH field, the stakes are not so high, and a mistake might cost you a few points--oh well.


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## Jax08

When I watched the Masters, there was only one dog that actually slowed down and looked in the blind (On Saturday when I was there). The rest ran the pattern but didn't look.


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## Samba

Well, it would appear that some are saying it is possible to participate in a SchH as a sport and earn titles and still have many of those dogs not be capable of police work or KNPV success. I would imagine many police worthy dogs can and do come through SchH, but how much is that venue a proving ground? Is it less of one than previously?


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## cliffson1

@ Renee....We get plenty of dogs from overseas that go into patrol work in the tri-state area.....but the majority of them are from Czech/Slovak dogs....the Czech/Slovak dogs are slowly changing but they are still providing a good percentage of police service dogs. I see a distinction between them and the sport dogs....have had many sport people tell me they don't consider them top sport dogs. Today many of these dogs are being mixed with West working lines with mixed success for police work. I was speaking of the sport lines that are so prevalent in sport work. Again, a good dog is a good dog.....but if I want to get a young puppy for police service work, there are definite working lines I look for and other working lines I stay clear of.


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## carmspack

Renee , by the time your plane load of sch h titled dogs is loaded for you to test , a crew of people who make a living finding these gems has spent weeks and visited many places, and rejected a majority of dogs. You are getting the cream of the crop and even then you know that you can't accept all of them , or have to wash them out during a certification course.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba

I think it must take some looking to find the suitable ones. It is not that one can show up at SchH fields and start picking. I had a dog who became dual purpose. A police dog procurer who saw him did say he so wished he could find 10 like him. The dog did come from sport participants. The dam over 30 times SchH III. So it is not that sport excludes capable dogs but that it includes way more not so inclined?


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## cliffson1

Samba, you are right,imo. You can get a police service dog from sport dogs, show dogs, DDR dogs, and Czech/Slovak dogs. You can get a police service dog from any litter of any well bred German Shepherd. Just like you can show sable dogs successfully and you can trial show dogs successfully. But like anything else, you will find a trend for the type of dog that is successful, based on actual participation. The reasons for the trends can be debated, but the numbers and types of the successful dogs cannot.


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## crackem

dog training is dog training. You aren't going to train for the exact same things for a PD as you would a sport dog, like the blind search. Like everything else in life and dog training there is balance, if you go too far one way, you're more than likely going to lose a bit somewhere else. There are examples by the thousands, just think and i'm sure you can come up with about 10 in just your training alone, and it's different for every dog, some you have to build drive for the retrieves some you have to teach jumps with food some you'd reward for a fast return rather than a perfect jump, and others a bit differently.

but then there is more to having a dog do a blind search that seems to have no real world application. you know how many times you can fool a dog in training???? I've sat quietly and not so quietly a few times for patrol dogs doing an area search. i've had them come so close I thought they were going to run me over, and they blasted right by me because they "thought" I was some where else. Teaching a methodical search by handler direction is useful for much more than just sport. Just tossing that out there.

good dogs are good dogs. I find this whole notion of work vs sport to be much like the which lines are best for working, kind of pointless. I haven't worked hundreds of police dogs, but i've worked and helped certify enough that you'd have to count on a couple hands and the ones doing patrol and detection are all coming from sport titled pedigrees. 

i've seen more than enough dogs titled in sport that had everything you'd ever need for police work and vice versa.

no kidding that a sch dog won't directly transfer over to a police dog, but many could with a bit different training. I know i've had a couple that would have been great, but then, my dogs are my companions. Tested so I know what I have, but my dogs to have fun in a sport, go camping, hiking and family events and if **** ever hits the fan, i'm taking my dogs with me, not throwing them out there to defend me. I spend way too much time with them, i'd put myself in danger before one of them, so why would I train them for anything other than sport?

The sport can still be a test, if you chose to use it that way. If all you care about is fluffing by and getting some cheap scores, well then the test is worth what you put into it. For those that actually test and pressure, the proof is in there breedings.


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## clearcreekranch

What is KNPV?


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## holland

KNPV-is done in Holland-the decoy wears a bite suit -dog does the pursuit of the decoy who is riding a bike-I don't remember all the exercises but I find it fun to watch because it is fast


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## DFrost

Jax08 said:


> When I watched the Masters, there was only one dog that actually slowed down and looked in the blind (On Saturday when I was there). The rest ran the pattern but didn't look.


I think that is an excellent example of one of the differences between sport and PSD. The blinds is a regimented routine, that must be worked in specific pattern with the decoy always in the same place. That is sport. When we train building or area search, the decoy is never in the same place. He may be in a position where the dog never sees him and has to totally rely on olfaction. Nothing is routine.

DFrost


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## carmspack

D Frost , right on , let me just add one more thing.

Working has nothing to do with points , just get the job done to save the handler any risk .

If the dog can pin point where the guy is hiding GO THERE 

. In sport the dog has a sense , left to his own he would zero in on the location . The handler is working against the dog and making him yield to the directions given. It is an obedience exercise .

In a real life situation , a dark warehouse for example, not only does the dog not know where the guy is , the officer does not either . There may not even be anybody to find so you want the dog to indicate the all clear - preliminary building sweep.

Trust your dog (based on his proficiency which is tested yearly for recertification). 

Wouldn't it be a real mess if you got fancy and sent the dog in the opposite direction .

Same rules for SAR , tracking . Let the dog do the work.

crackem said ever hits the fan, i'm taking my dogs with me, not throwing them out there to defend me. I spend way too much time with them, i'd put myself in danger before one of them, so why would I train them for anything other than sport?

xxx difficult as it may be I know that when I offer up a dog that there is the potential for injury or loss of life (for the dog) . Sobering thought . All the more reason to understand the risks of the job , to the handlers . That is the purpose of the dog -- . I have had one male (rcmp) dog die of injuries sustained when he was knifed in an apprehension. He bled out on the operating table. Nothing could be done. I have had dogs hit by cars, had 45 gallon barrels tossed at them, had them shot at , but I feel the service that they provide is so great for the good of the community , doing something that is just plain right . 

Carmen


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## lhczth

The blind search in SchH is an obedience exercise and shows the dog's willingness to follow direction. I do wish the tracking phase was more realistic at least at the IPO1 (breeding) level.


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## ladylaw203

carmspack said:


> Renee , by the time your plane load of sch h titled dogs is loaded for you to test , a crew of people who make a living finding these gems has spent weeks and visited many places, and rejected a majority of dogs.


Carmen I am well aware of how it works. I have been doing this for 25 years. I have folks that pick for me.


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## ladylaw203

carmspack said:


> D Frost , right on , let me just add one more thing.
> 
> Working has nothing to do with points , just get the job done to save the handler any risk .
> 
> If the dog can pin point where the guy is hiding GO THERE
> 
> . In sport the dog has a sense , left to his own he would zero in on the location . The handler is working against the dog and making him yield to the directions given. It is an obedience exercise .
> 
> In a real life situation , a dark warehouse for example, not only does the dog not know where the guy is , the officer does not either . There may not even be anybody to find so you want the dog to indicate the all clear - preliminary building sweep.
> 
> 
> Carmen


 
I think everyone is aware of that. Sport is an arbitrary routine. The street is not. Big difference however, for many many years police and military have been importing sport trained dogs and using that training as a basis for further training. For patrol work the dog must be civil, not a jute junkie for example.


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## Jax08

I wasn't aware of it. I appreciate Carmen's posts that explain things so well.


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## ladylaw203

The point is that we have been importing dogs from overseas for many many years and still are. To those folks dog sport is like baseball here. Training field on every corner and there are some talented trainers over there. We started seeing shortages after 9-11 when the demand for bomb dogs jumped and the demand for dogs for military went sky high. Many private contract dogs overseas as well as here too. Those companies are importing as well. Vendors , etc. .

A challenge to find retrieves as well for the above reasons. The demand is high and this makes cost go up


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## DFrost

ladylaw203 said:


> For patrol work the dog must be civil, not a jute junkie for example.


Two of my pet peeves are; 1. buying what they say is a "green" dog and he's a jute junkies. 2. Buying a dog that has had some training and he's already doing b/h. I'm totally against b/h so it is an irritant to me. Now I test them to make sure, too often it makes the dog hesitate or, it turns them dirty. Either way I don't like it. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

I hear ya


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## carmspack

Renee , if D Frost says he does not want a jute junkie and he does not want a bark and hold , is this not what schutzhund dogs are and have as part of their training for titles. You did say the planes are loaded with titled dogs everyday .
It is not that easy finding pedigrees that will produce dogs that can work . 
If it were that easy you wouldn't have the German police scrambling to find suitable dogs and resorting to using other breeds.

If you are interested in really good Labs , that have gone on to RCMP and local and US police departments , and have trained for cancer detection -- and are not show bred , bred for performance then I would recommend Trailrunners Labs , Chris Oudshoorn . 1 866 939 8009 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## robk

This has been the most interesting thread to read. Thank you for all the valuable insight!




clearcreekranch said:


> What is KNPV?


KNPV is a certification program in Holland where Dutch citizens can train dogs to certify them as eligible for consideration for Dutch Police service.


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## ladylaw203

carmspack said:


> Renee , if D Frost says he does not want a jute junkie and he does not want a bark and hold , is this not what schutzhund dogs are and have as part of their training for titles. You did say the planes are loaded with titled dogs everyday .
> It is not that easy finding pedigrees that will produce dogs that can work .
> If it were that easy you wouldn't have the German police scrambling to find suitable dogs and resorting to using other breeds.
> 
> If you are interested in really good Labs , that have gone on to RCMP and local and US police departments , and have trained for cancer detection -- and are not show bred , bred for performance then I would recommend Trailrunners Labs , Chris Oudshoorn . 1 866 939 8009


 
I am not going to argue with you Carmen. You always get condiscending. You are not a cop nor a police k9 trainer. Some of us have been doing this for years. As a certifying official for the largest police service dog org in the nation, I have certified literally hundreds of dogs. I said I dont care for jute junkies either. Since you are not a trainer you do not get the fact that solid sport dogs can make the transition. There are those who do not understand police work and do not get that the dog must be civil and do not work the dog in defense. Give me a solid prey dog and I can put the defense on the dog. Solid is the key. And no Carmen,you are wrong. We are not getting the "cream of the crop" . THOSE stay for competition and breeding. I have friends over there that pick dogs for me.
I have no need whatsoever for RCMP labs.  The finest labs in the world are right here in Texas. I am a breeder They are bred for field trial. Goldens as well. One of my Goldens just obtained his senior hunter title Sunday. My comment was with referrence to the price going sky high. They are not as plentiful as before hence,a jack up in price.


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## Mrs.K

I can understand why you wouldn't want a jute junkie. The interesting part about jute junkies is that it initially was used to re-direct the dogs and make the calm down "head wise" if that makes any sense at all. Some dogs were a little too civil so re-directing them worked. However, the method worked so well that the dogs were literally conditioned on the jute/sleeve and bred towards it. 

Interestingly it was one of the most famous shepherd trainers, who actually initiated that kind of method. 

My father generally says that dogs literally made stupid, they don't think, all they want is the jute and won't go for the threat anymore. 

I guess he's right.


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## ladylaw203

It depends Mrs. K on the temperament of the dog. We have sat around police k9 seminars for well over twenty years discussing the prey vs defense aspect. Generally many of us have decided that 70-30 prey-defense makes a good patrol dog. The prey dog that is rock solid can have the defense put on him and be made civil. 
I guess I get aggravated at folks dissing sport. It is NOT the street, however, there are tons of titled dogs here working as police service dogs. The sport is a good basis for further training. We dont buy pups. They are a crap shoot. Agencies get young adults from vendors. These dogs come from various countries,with hips/elbows done and generally some sport work done on them. This is how it has been done for many many years. It works. Are there dogs that should not be patrol dogs? Yep, I fail them. I try to help them fix the dog or if the dog does not have the temperament I am honest.


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## Mrs.K

yep, I agree with the puppies being crap shoot. First off, you don't know how they turn out and if they stay healthy, secondly it takes up to a year if not longer until they are mature enough to be seriously worked for what you need. It takes too long and the upbringing itself is too expensive as well, just to find out that the pup has severe HD and needs to be put down anyways. 

What aggrevates me is to paint a black picture about the GSD while there are, like you said, a lot of great dogs out there. 

The methods have changed. Back then, people were much more rigerous about training. I guess we all have gone soft. And you are right, you can always bring out the defense. Depending on who does it, it might just not be a pretty sight when it's done an I guess, personally, I'm just way to soft to go that route. LOL

But I agree, I rather have a dog that is a little more on the prey than defense side because I wouldn't want to handle a 70/30 defense - prey monster...


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## ladylaw203

Mrs.K said:


> . Depending on who does it, it might just not be a pretty sight when it's done an I guess, personally, I'm just way to soft to go that route. LOL
> 
> But I agree, I rather have a dog that is a little more on the prey than defense side because I wouldn't want to handle a 70/30 defense - prey monster...


 
It is NOT cruel. It is very simple. One presents a threat to the dog and he responds appropriately. One moves from defense to Prey. prey is a happy place for the dog. We do muzzle fighting with them. They always win. We do suit work and hidden sleeve work. The dog learns that he is the baddest sucker out there and cannot lose fighting a human. THAT is why they do it on the street.


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## NancyJ

Mrs.K said:


> yep, I agree with the puppies being crap shoot. First off, you don't know how they turn out and if they stay healthy, secondly it takes up to a year if not longer until they are mature enough to be seriously worked for what you need. It takes too long and the upbringing itself is too expensive as well, just to find out that the pup has severe HD and needs to be put down anyways. ...


*I completely agree that puppies are a big gamble and why departments do not tend to raise them. .... Agree 100%*

But to clarify, few dogs with severe HD need to be put down. Straight from the ortho vet who diagnosed my female with bilateral severe dysplasia in 2006 and said keep her lean and muscular - Retired ASAP from working but still has a very active 9 year old and seems to be none the worse for the wear.

But there is the risk, like with Cyra, you have a lifelong commitment to a non productive dog, something departments cannot afford to do. I think it is the cost after a diagnosis, not before that is the issue.


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## holland

I don't think puppies are such a crap shot-maybe in terms of health and maybe for a police dept-people do say that a lot though...


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## DFrost

jocoyn said:


> I think it is the cost after a diagnosis, not before that is the issue.


 
That's exactly what it is. Although it may sound harsh there is a point of diminishing return with a working dog. The trainer/program manager that does not do everything within his/her power, to ensure only the healthiest animals are selected is negligent in their job. Not only have they encumbered an expense that is unnecessary, but they removed a viable piece of equipment from service. Again, and I know it sounds tough, but the manager has to look at the dog as a piece of equipment. If it doesn't work I try to fix it, if I can't fix it I replace it.


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## DFrost

holland said:


> I don't think puppies are such a crap shot-maybe in terms of health and maybe for a police dept-people do say that a lot though...


I'd ask you this question then; how many dogs have you had to select for PSD work as if your job may depend on the proper selection. Departments aren't going to allow a trainer to spend 15 months raising dogs just to give them away. They (management) expect working dogs in a reasonable amount of time. They think 10 weeks to train a drug dog is too long as it is, spending 15 months raising it then eliminating it from training in week 5 wouldn't play well for too long. I like dogs. It's why I've spent the majority of my adult life working with them. Don't however think it isn't a business. Business that operate in the red, won't stick around very long. Dog trainers, in the police business, that can't put dependable, servicable dogs on the street in the quickest time possible don't either.

DFrost


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## Mrs.K

DFrost said:


> That's exactly what it is. Although it may sound harsh there is a point of diminishing return with a working dog. The trainer/program manager that does not do everything within his/her power, to ensure only the healthiest animals are selected is negligent in their job. Not only have they encumbered an expense that is unnecessary, but they removed a viable piece of equipment from service. Again, and I know it sounds tough, but the manager has to look at the dog as a piece of equipment. If it doesn't work I try to fix it, if I can't fix it I replace it.


Not only that. If you purchase the dogs abroad you have to count the cost and the shipping. That alone makes it over a thousand dollars that could have went into a different dog. Then food, vet bills, the training, raising... those hours are money as well and then the money that goes into the dog after the diagnosis. 

All that added up could be used to put into multiple young, healthy dogs or a really nice titled dog. 

I just have to look at what Judge cost me up until the diagnsis and what he cost me since then. That added up. I could get a very nice titled dog for that. All he does is cost me but so far I didn't get anything out of it. As a breeders daughter I both, grinch my teeth because he costs and costs and costs but at the same time I feel the obligation to not pass off the problem to somebody else. Plus I like that little bugger. He's my dog, my responsibility... yet I can't keep collecting.... as an agency, he'd be gone already.


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## holland

DFrost said:


> I'd ask you this question then; how many dogs have you had to select for PSD work as if your job may depend on the proper selection. Departments aren't going to allow a trainer to spend 15 months raising dogs just to give them away. They (management) expect working dogs in a reasonable amount of time. They think 10 weeks to train a drug dog is too long as it is, spending 15 months raising it then eliminating it from training in week 5 wouldn't play well for too long. I like dogs. It's why I've spent the majority of my adult life working with them. Don't however think it isn't a business. Business that operate in the red, won't stick around very long. Dog trainers, in the police business, that can't put dependable, servicable dogs on the street in the quickest time possible don't either.
> 
> DFrost


I haven't selected any but I still don't think puppies are a crap shot


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## NancyJ

Some of my teammates have been succesful in passing on dogs they raised that were not what they were looking for into good pet homes and actually get to see the dogs on a regular basis. 

Of course none of them with serious ortho problems. I think major medical issues are the worst outcome to manage. I can deal with winding up with finding a home for a very well socialized healthy pet that just does not have the right working drives. But I am wasting my personal time and my personal dollar doing so.

No, I HAVE a puppy and you can stack the deck with a good one but they are still a gamble - I truly agree - but sometimes real gems get sold as pups so the good side of the gamble is you COULD get a once in a lifetime dog that way.


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## holland

Guess I am glad that I have a choice and don't have to view dogs that way-they are just my pets


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## southernfiction

*Seeing the work*



Castlemaid said:


> Another way you can see the difference between dogs bred for work and dogs bred for sport is in the obedience. There is a go-go-go hyper flashy-ness and focused intensity on the handler that makes an obedience routine shine and sparkle with excitement in a dog bred more for points in Schutzhund rather than on-the-street work. For example, the prancing heel, the rock-solid focus, the quick-as lightning retrieves where the dog just rockets out and brings the dumbbell back just as fast stopping in front of the handler on a dime - it is breath-taking to watch, but this kind of intensity often comes at the price of a dog that is alway buzzing with barely-contained energy and has no off switch (this is just generalizations - some dogs do have naturally sparkly obedience, AND a great off switch) - but often the price for this sparkly-ness are nerve issues. Dogs that are always 'on' and always do everything with hyper energy often have other behavioural issues or performance issues like being unable to cap drives or be quiet in the work.
> 
> Another difference is seriousness - the civil dog vs. the sleeve-oriented dog. Again, some of it is training. You can get a dog that is genetically civil (will bite for real), and train it to be only sleeve oriented, but if you have a sport dog that mostly works in prey drive and rarely taps into his defense drive, you can push and challenge the dog all you want, it may not bite anything other than the sleeve - in his mind, biting for real is a real fight and the dog does not want to go there.
> 
> Our helper develops RCMP dogs and their handlers, and we have some handlers in our club, bringing their young prospects up, and seasoned handlers coming to club to do the tracking and protection maintenance work. Our helper always says that the ground-work and basics for tracking and bite-work for police dogs and Schutzhund dogs are the same. But where it changes is when the police dogs move on from the exposed sleeve to the hidden sleeve and the bite-suit. Moving from the exposed sleeve to the hidden sleeve is where you see wich dogs are more 'sport' dogs, and which ones are 'real' dogs.
> 
> Took me a while too to understand what people were talking about when talking about real dogs and sport dogs - being able to see the difference in person really helped.


 
You write with wonderful clarity. I can "see" exactly what you mean. Thanks for sharing this.


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## NancyJ

holland said:


> Guess I am glad that I have a choice and don't have to view dogs that way-they are just my pets


Having a working dog takes a lot of time and energy. It is probably a better life FOR THE DOG if it can be rehomed into an active pet home. 

Sometimes the most loving thing to do is get them to a better place. Like I said, I knew I would be the best home for my snarky dysplastic female. So she has a guarantee for life.


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## Mrs.K

jocoyn said:


> Having a working dog takes a lot of time and energy. It is probably a better life FOR THE DOG if it can be rehomed into an active pet home.
> 
> Sometimes the most loving thing to do is get them to a better place. Like I said, I knew I would be the best home for my snarky dysplastic female. So she has a guarantee for life.


Yeah, I can see that. They just don't get the same attention as the ones being worked and that isn't fair to them either, no matter what other pet people say an how much you are blamed for giving a dog up to somebody else. And sometimes it's not fair to keep a dog alive, especially when they have an intense drive and need an outlet and just can't get it because of their health issues. Don't know whats better. vegetating and alive, or releasing them.


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## NancyJ

Cyra does energetic things neither the ortho vet nor the canine rehab folks supported......but I figured she would enjoy a short active life than a long miserable one. However, all that activity and the right care has totally surprised me with its healing powers.

But the topic is WORKING vs SPORT and while I could even see an unsuitable dog doing some level of sport, I cannot for working where lives are on the line. I know one fellow who does schutzhund with his moderately dysplastic dog. Is it wear and tear? Sure. But so what. These dos are bred for this.


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## ladylaw203

holland said:


> I haven't selected any but I still don't think puppies are a crap shot


 
You dont because you dont work the dog 40+ hours a week on the street in all kinds of circumstances  Pups are a crap shoot with hips,health etc. AND drive. Far easier for police and military to choose a young adult,with health clearances that we can evaluate. THEN the dog still might fail sometime in training. But as least we evaluate them throughly enough to have a fair idea as to what we are getting. A police service dog must get out of the car ready to rock in all kinds of weather, noise, etc.


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## Mrs.K

ladylaw203 said:


> You dont because you dont work the dog 40+ hours a week on the street in all kinds of circumstances  Pups are a crap shoot with hips,health etc. AND drive. Far easier for police and military to choose a young adult,with health clearances that we can evaluate. THEN the dog still might fail sometime in training. But as least we evaluate them throughly enough to have a fair idea as to what we are getting. A police service dog must get out of the car ready to rock in all kinds of weather, noise, etc.


When you buy a puppy it's like purchasing Hope. You hope the puppy turns out healthy, you hope the puppy turns out the way you want. There is just no guarantee how the puppy turns out. That is why I find the guaranees you get from American breeders questionable.


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## Jax08

jocoyn said:


> But the topic is WORKING vs SPORT and while I could even see an unsuitable dog doing some level of sport, I cannot for working where lives are on the line. I know one fellow who does schutzhund with his moderately dysplastic dog. Is it wear and tear? Sure. But so what. These dos are bred for this.



Well...yes and no. My question was what are people looking for in sport that would make a working dog unsuitable and why. And there were only a few posts that actually addressed that before egos got poked and people started talking about euthanizing dogs that aren't 100% healthy.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Well...yes and no. My question was what are people looking for in sport that would make a working dog unsuitable and why. And there were only a few posts that actually addressed that before egos got poked and people started talking about euthanizing dogs that aren't 100% healthy.


:help: really? If you read that into any of the posts you can't be helped...


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## Jax08

you are such a peach


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> .... *And sometimes it's not fair to keep a dog alive, especially when they have an intense drive and need an outlet and just can't get it because of their health issues*.* Don't know whats better. vegetating and alive, or releasing them.*


Since you took what I said so personally, I just had to go back and look to see why...so here goes...

Was there another definition to this other than euthanizing the dog? I just need some :help: with the meaning of this paragraph.


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## Jax08

And back to the question I asked....

Thank you to DFrost, Carmen, Lee, Cliff, Jane, Lucia...and I'm sure I'm missing people! for you informative answers on the differences between working and sport. It does sadden me to know that while people are screaming about the divisions in the breed, yet another one is being created rather than staying true to the breed.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Since you took what I said so personally, I just had to go back and look to see why...so here goes...
> 
> Was there another definition to this other than euthanizing the dog? I just need some :help: with the meaning of this paragraph.


Ya know.. forget about it. You'll take anything out of context I've said, just like disregarding everything I've posted on this topic.


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## Jax08

Take your posts out of context? I didn't even read your posts. :shrug: I find you exhausting so try to avoid you. The people I was looking for to respond did and I learned much from those very experienced people.


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## Mrs.K

Up until now it was a great topic. 

Thanks for making it personal, once again!


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## Jack's Dad

Thanks Jax08 for a very informative topic. 

Thanks to all the knowledgable people who responded. 

That includes you Mrs K. Whatever personal issues there are cannot take away your knowledge of the breed. Which is extensive.


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> :help: really? If you read that into any of the posts you can't be helped...


That was to me...I didn't say a single word to you from page 1 until this post.



Mrs.K said:


> Up until now it was a great topic.
> 
> Thanks for making it personal, once again!


And then you choose to insult me AGAIN. I didn't make it personal...you did that when you chose to insult me. Do you ever, ever take responsibility for anything you say or do you just go through life blaming everyone else?

Absolutely exhausting....


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## crackem

Jax08 said:


> Well...yes and no. My question was what are people looking for in sport that would make a working dog unsuitable and why. And there were only a few posts that actually addressed that before egos got poked and people started talking about euthanizing dogs that aren't 100% healthy.


 I don't think there is much difference. I think there's all sorts of terrible examples in the real world of sport and working dogs, but the good ones are all very similiar to me.

Just because people train for "flash" in sport doesn't mean a good "working" dog isn't capable of it. Mostly they just don't care and don't train for it. Doesn't mean the dog is any different. 

Just because some sport dogs don't get trained with anything other than prey, doesn't mean they don't have anything else in them. on that same note, plenty of dogs very high in prey can make fine working dogs. They don't ahve to feel threatened or in danger to fight. i've met a few dogs over the years that seemed to work completely in prey, you could pour the pressure on, enclosed spaces, in the dark throw **** at them, beat them and they'd stare you in the eye and bite you hard enough to crush bones, just because they could. I don't get off on all this "defense" and "jute" junkie stuff.

a good dog is a good dog. most times the best aren't even going to PD's because they can't afford them, they're kept for breeding or sold for bigger bucks than a PD can pay for them.

maybe it's just me, but I tend to look at the total dog, and the ones that win aren't always my favorites. i'm not alone in this thinking, most people I know in the sport and others recognize this. The majority are looking for good dogs. Dogs with stable temperments, drive and strong nerves, the same thing that makes a good dog capable of anything.

I have a range of dogs I like and they can have all sorts of mixes of what some call defense and prey and everything else. But most of all, I don't care if they exhbit defensive behaviors or not. A dog that has drive enough to want to work, and nerve enough to stay in the fight and the temperment to be stable in the real world are dogs I want. I'd imagine I could do about anything with them.


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## DFrost

holland said:


> I haven't selected any but I still don't think puppies are a crap shot


I've selected hundreds. I do it for a living and I do think it's a crap shoot.


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## Jax08

crackem!! You are one I forgot in my thanks!!

Some day, far off because we have 3 dogs, I want a dog to do SchH with. But in that, I want a dog that I can go from the SchH field to a dog benefit with the general public to a kindergarten class. I want a dog that stable.

I have a dog aggression dog, a people aggressive dog and Jax who isn't really aggressive as reactive and a bit nervous. Stability and balance is what I want.


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## Jax08

DFrost said:


> I've selected hundreds. I do it for a living and I do think it's a crap shoot.


I haven't selected any and my logic is telling me it would have to be a crap shoot. Not so much health wise but how do you know if the puppy you bought is going to have what it takes to be a working dog in law enforcement or SAR? Don't law enforcement agencies usually buy dogs that are already starting so they know what they are getting?


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## Mrs.K

crackem said:


> I don't think there is much difference. I think there's all sorts of terrible examples in the real world of sport and working dogs, but the good ones are all very similiar to me.
> 
> Just because people train for "flash" in sport doesn't mean a good "working" dog isn't capable of it. Mostly they just don't care and don't train for it. Doesn't mean the dog is any different.
> 
> Just because some sport dogs don't get trained with anything other than prey, doesn't mean they don't have anything else in them. on that same note, plenty of dogs very high in prey can make fine working dogs. They don't ahve to feel threatened or in danger to fight. i've met a few dogs over the years that seemed to work completely in prey, you could pour the pressure on, enclosed spaces, in the dark throw **** at them, beat them and they'd stare you in the eye and bite you hard enough to crush bones, just because they could. I don't get off on all this "defense" and "jute" junkie stuff.
> *
> a good dog is a good dog. most times the best aren't even going to PD's because they can't afford them, they're kept for breeding or sold for bigger bucks than a PD can pay for them*.
> 
> * maybe it's just me, but I tend to look at the total dog, and the ones that win aren't always my favorites. i'm not alone in this thinking, most people I know in the sport and others recognize this. The majority are looking for good dogs. Dogs with stable temperments, drive and strong nerves, the same thing that makes a good dog capable of anything.*
> 
> I have a range of dogs I like and they can have all sorts of mixes of what some call defense and prey and everything else. But most of all, I don't care if they exhbit defensive behaviors or not. A dog that has drive enough to want to work, and nerve enough to stay in the fight and the temperment to be stable in the real world are dogs I want. I'd imagine I could do about anything with them.


Absolutely agree. Well said. :thumbup:

A lot of times the sport and working dog are one and the same. And that is the way it should be.


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> I haven't selected any and my logic is telling me it would have to be a crap shoot. Not so much health wise but how do you know if the puppy you bought is going to have what it takes to be a working dog in law enforcement or SAR? Don't law enforcement agencies usually buy dogs that are already starting so they know what they are getting?


You may want to read his statement again:

_



I've selected hundreds. *I do it for a living and I do think it's a crap shoot.*

Click to expand...

He said that he does think that it is a crap shoot. Not the other way around. 

And as for sar:

Rock Solid Nerves
Prey Drive
Hunt Drive
Hardness
Resilience
100% healthy


pretty much anything a good working dog should be like. 
_


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## Jax08

ummm..I was agreeing with him and asking him a question. 

How about I don't respond to you and you don't respond to me. Ugh...



Mrs.K said:


> You may want to read his statement again:
> 
> _
> 
> He said that he does think that it is a crap shoot. Not the other way around.
> 
> And as for sar:
> 
> Rock Solid Nerves
> Prey Drive
> Hunt Drive
> Hardness
> Resilience
> 100% healthy
> 
> 
> pretty much anything a good working dog should be like.
> _


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## ladylaw203

Jax08 said:


> Don't law enforcement agencies usually buy dogs that are already starting so they know what they are getting?


 
Yes. The majority of departments purchase from a vendor then the handler attends a handler course with subsequent certification from a national police service dog organization. The dogs are trained. Those departments with a trainer,purchase young adults that can be throughly evaluated . Pups are not a sure thing and much time involved waiting for them to mature and begin training.


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## Jax08

And they are very expensive. A local NY county recently lost their K9 to cancer and had a fundraiser to buy another. I think they were looking at raising $5000? They raises at least twice that. The whole story, including the loss of their K9 to cancer, then the money raised by the community was enough to bring you to tears.


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## Mrs.K

ladylaw203 said:


> Yes. The majority of departments purchase from a vendor then the handler attends a handler course with subsequent certification from a national police service dog organization. The dogs are trained. Those departments with a trainer,purchase young adults that can be throughly evaluated . Pups are not a sure thing and much time involved waiting for them to mature and begin training.


What I wonder, one police dog trainer I know has 12 weeks to get the dog ready, even if it is a green dog and for dual purpose. Is it really enough time to get the dog ready for the road? With solid obedience and solid patrol skills?


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> And they are very expensive. A local NY county recently lost their K9 to cancer and had a fundraiser to buy another. I think they were looking at raising $5000? They raises at least twice that. The whole story, including the loss of their K9 to cancer, then the money raised by the community was enough to bring you to tears.


Jax, the funny thing about that is that a green dog usually isn't even that much when you buy it yourself in Germany. My bitch the 15 mo costs a 1000 Euros that's the puppy price. If I went through a broker or through one of those Agencies in the US I'd pay around 5000-7000 Dollars for the same dog. :help:
And the best part is when they offer green, unpapered dogs, be it dutchies or malinois or german shepherd for that kind of money just because it's labeled as "law enforcement prospect"... seen it a lot with broker agencies that import dogs from the eastern part of europe.


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## DFrost

Jax08 said:


> I haven't selected any and my logic is telling me it would have to be a crap shoot. Not so much health wise but how do you know if the puppy you bought is going to have what it takes to be a working dog in law enforcement or SAR? Don't law enforcement agencies usually buy dogs that are already starting so they know what they are getting?


Your logic is correct. I would only add that health is also an issue, particularly hips. Bad hips wouldn't be so detectable until at least 12 months. LE buys dogs with varying amounts of training and for different reasons. I like to buy dogs that are green. Truthfully though, they are harder to find unless you deal directly with a small breeder. Generally, what I see as "green" now is; bite tested and perhaps started on one odor. Yes, the price is getting ridiculous. IT's hard for departments to compete with the U.S. Gov't that buys a bunch of dogs and can pay more. I'm fortunate in that we are an experienced, full time, K9 training staff. My view on vendors and breeders, even though I often get in trouble for saying so is: I treat them all like used car salesmen. You don't find breeders that breed bad dogs any more than you can find a vendor that has ever sold a bad dog. ha ha ha

DFrost


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> ummm..I was agreeing with him and asking him a question.
> 
> How about I don't respond to you and you don't respond to me. Ugh...


Sorry I misread it. My bad.


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