# 2x2 weaves. . . I think I've screwed up



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

We're working weaves in the hallway because it's pouring outside. 

He'll go through reliably from the 6:00 position, but about the time his nose and ears pass through the weave poles, he wraps his neck around the near pole and looks to make sure I've got his treat. Then I toss it down the driveline so he continues on. I tried tossing _before_ his head passes the pole, but then he sees the toss and goes straight to the treat without weaving. If I don't toss it at all he stands there, with his neck through the weave, staring at me. 

WAT DO!?!?!?!?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Do you have the DVD? I am pretty sure Susan mentions this in there, but I haven't watched it in a while. I don't remember what she says on the subject, but I can rewatch it tonight and find out...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

BTW- does this also happen when training outside? A different environment can _easily_ affect the performance. This might simply be happening on account of a very narrow hallway where your dog doesn't want to drive forward into a wall (or parallel to). The perception of openness while outside is much, much different than a 4' hallway.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Ooh good questions.

I don't have the video, this is our class homework for the week. Our instructor walked us through what she wanted us to do at home. We've only been at it a couple of days and it's all been in the hallway because of the weather. I hadn't thought about that affecting his line. Maybe I'll wait and work it some more in a more open area. Thanks!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think it most certainly could affect his line. I've heard my instructor comment *many* times how dogs aren't stupid and they know full well when running into a corner or wall on an agility course that _something_ is going to happen. A lot of dogs will act differently on a course when having to turn into a wall. I would assume it's applicable in a hallway.

Do you have a garage? I recall seeing (a long time ago) a 2x2 video of a guy practicing in his garage with decent enough success. I've had decent success in a room that is 12' wide by 20' long, though I think it was admittedly very compact. I recorded this before having ever watched the DVD. I might do things a bit differently now. Still, this should give you some idea of the space needed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> I've heard my instructor comment *many* times how dogs aren't stupid and they know full well when running into a corner or wall on an agility course that _something_ is going to happen.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7owx2SLVPXw



Point of clarification- I know you didn't say your dog was stupid. I didn't mean to imply that. My point was that a dog clearly knows there is a wall (or corner) there, and they generally won't see a need to drive _towards_ a wall (or corner).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Huh, good thought. There's currently a 1970 GTO leaking various fluids in our garage.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

What stage are you at in training the 2x2s? Do you just have one set out to work the entry? 

It sounds like the cookie has turned into a lure, you might want to go back to just marking and treating for passing through the 2x2s for the different environment a couple of times. You can also try varying your position so that he's focused forward (leave him in a sit at the 6:00 position while you go to 12:00 then release so he can offer the pass through the weaves then mark/reward), though this should not be done more than a couple of times because it might turn into *you *being the lure.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah we're just on one set. I'm supposed to try to have him going through reliably from the 6 o'clock position by next session. 

Thanks for the suggestion; I'll give that a try.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I just watched the first two chapters of the DVD and there is really so much info in there... 

I guess there are a couple things to point out. The first phase should be a phase of building value for the set of two poles. This phase has no entry direction (poles at 3 and 9 o'clock with you at 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock) and the dog should be more/less coming in orthogonal to the poles. The point is for the dog to find value in the poles, and for the dog to prove said value by interacting with them. You start by shaping the dog to walk through (in any direction). She points out that you want to stay really close to the poles initially. She makes an analogy that if your dog is sitting by your side and sees a squirrel, the dog can choose to chase the squirrel in no time. That's because there is value in chasing the squirrel. She claims the same is true for the poles. You need to stay close to the poles until you have built good value. The dog should immediately know to run through the poles when he or she sees them. Once you have that kind of value, then you move back a bit and start testing the value. If you are five feet away- does the dog still seek out the poles and go through them? What about at ten feet away? Once you have this kind of value (and only AFTER you have this kind of value) should you move on to the next step.

The next step is where you set criteria. From this point on, the dog must always get the correct entry in order to earn reward. The poles should be at 2 and 8 o'clock with you at 6 o'clock. This is the easiest entry for the dog. You should only reward when the dog meets criteria, and you should begin working around the circle. I found a random picture online about this:









Also note in the above picture that there is a defined reinforcement line. You should be throwing your reward parallel to this line. The criteria is that the dog must enter properly driving along that line in order to get reward.

Susan mentions multiple times about the importance of proper timing in reward. She mentions multiple times about the negatives to having the dog looking up and back at you for the reward. You want the dog's head low and forward in order to get the fastest drive through the poles. She mentions with Encore, she had to use food longer than she would have liked because Encore would track the toy with her head (looking back for the toy), but with food she would drive forward. Susan also demonstrates the mechanics of throwing the toy and timing the release. She wants you to be in the process of "bowling" the toy out there as the dog is entering the poles. This allows you to release the instant you see the dog has committed to the proper choice and met criteria. It also gives you that split second where you've made the motion of throwing, but you don't actually release the food/toy due to missed criteria. She also stresses the important of keeping it low because, again, you need the dog's head low for optimum drive through the poles. Finally, she does mention the disadvantage of using food in grass in that the food is often lost and the dog is constantly sniffing for it. So while you are inside right now, you should be aware that food (if you are using it) will be a poor choice once you move to a grassy area.

Hope this helps.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Whoa! So much information, my head A-splode. I may try to find the video; what's it called? Thanks so much for the info.


Edit: Holy crap it's seventy dollars!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Susan's DVDs rock. I'm sure the people who contribute regularly to this subforum get tired of me constantly siting Susan Garrett stuff, but I've never been more impressed with her training material. In every one of her DVDs that I own, she not only tells you what, why how, when, and where to do something, she demonstrates the exact mechanics she wants you to follow, and almost always shows multiple dogs so that she can explain troubleshooting techniques. She's extremely thorough in this respect. I've never been disappointed in her training material (though it is pricey).

The DVD can be had from CleanRun or ClickerDogs-
2x2 Weave Pole Training DVD

(I would order from CleanRun since it's domestic.)
CleanRun link: http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1739&ParentCat=266


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ha. Told you it's pricey. For the record- so are Susan Salo and Sylvia Trkman DVDs. Actually- so are most all agility DVDs... There's always rental services too. I did ask CleanRun if they had plans on doing more Video On Demand with Garrett DVDs and they said they were, but that they didn't own the rights to all of them. They were still in the negotiation process with all that. Anyway- agility videos are expensive. Part of the game, I guess.

[EDIT]- come to think of it- so are Ivan B. and Leerburg DVDs. Dog training DVDs in general are ridiculously expensive- not just agility DVDs.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wildo said:


> Ha. Told you it's pricey. For the record- so are Susan Salo and Sylvia Trkman DVDs. Actually- so are most all agility DVDs... There's always rental services too. I did ask CleanRun if they had plans on doing more Video On Demand with Garrett DVDs and they said they were, but that they didn't own the rights to all of them. They were still in the negotiation process with all that. Anyway- agility videos are expensive. Part of the game, I guess.
> 
> [EDIT]- come to think of it- so are Ivan B. and Leerburg DVDs. Dog training DVDs in general are ridiculously expensive- not just agility DVDs.


 I think it has to do with how limited the audience really is for these sorts of DVDs. The more specialized the info is, the fewer people there will be who are interested in buying the DVD. At the training club here, I doubt the majority of the people who attend agility classes would purchase a training DVD unless they were having a specific training issue and felt the DVD would offer a "sure fix". And those are people who go to agility classes weekly and compete in agility. Agility DVDs are largely not just for people who do agility but people who have a strong interest in learning as much as they can about agility training. Many people who do agility are happy enough to just follow the instruction they get in classes. I think because of this, the rental places may actually end up driving the prices up even more. 

Another way to think of it is that while training DVDs are pricey, they generally don't cost as much as even auditing a seminar with many of these trainers. They don't cost as much as a set of training classes in many areas, where the instructor's advice may or may not be useful to you. And you can re-watch them as needed. 

It can be hard to justify the cost though. One thing that helps is if you and a friend or two with similar interests and go in on DVDs together to share.


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