# Initial Dogwalks



## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Trauma told me he didn't just want to be an IPO dog and that this tracking stuff on the agility field is crap...that the crazy red Border Collie shouldn't get all the time on the "playground". So he got to start some agility last week. Here are his first few full dogwalks from this morning https://vimeo.com/46434661


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

man no comments, suggestions, input....Trauma feels slighted  A rather boring video I do agree. We will keep working on it. Anyone want to give some advice on a big dog doing the teeter? He knows how to rock back nicely but I am worried about training him to rush to the end like a border collie....the rate at which the teeter would fall at that point might cause some problems..


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Well- I gave you a rather nice compliment on FB! haha! I actually enjoyed the video- all of your videos for that matter. I thought his contacts looked really nice! He has good speed over the dogwalk, though I think you can get considerably more in my opinion. I thought he was fast, but not entirely confident in his footing. But then again- as the first time over a full height DW- it's hard to be critical. I think it looked great, and definitely think it will improve with time.

As to the teeter, there is an AMAZING video of Lynda Orton-Hill with Spirit (Golden) doing a phenomenal BC-style teeter. I don't see it publicly available on youtube, but will ask Susan and Lynda to make it public (no promises). I can tell you that the speed, weightshift, and contact performance were impeccable and you'd never imagine a big 'ol Golden could do it.

And finally, in looking for the teeter video, I found this one which shows what is in my opinion a very confident dogwalk:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Score! Lynda's such a nice person. Here's the brilliant contacts- especially the teeter:





Lynda says to me in her email:


> My FAVORITE Run of my lifetime! I knew it was the last time I would take
> Spirit to worlds! We let loose and she had a brilliant run. The announcer
> said "what lovely contacts she has!" Ok my favorite part was her being "goofy" in the box!


Enjoy. I know I did. My jaw dropped at that teeter performance. Simply amazing and most certainly inspirational!


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks!! Yes I do agree with everything you said. He is not comfortable in his footwork and I think it will come in time. Just not sure how much time. He did fall off the first time trying to race me. Luckily he is careful with his body but isn't the type of dog to shut down easily. It was my fault for getting too far ahead of him his first time doing a full one. 

Love Lynda's second run and yes, absolutely stellar teeter! 

I still find it odd to work a shepherd in agility after having much smaller dogs for years  But they are a lot of fun! My first shepherd ever (ended up being diagnosed with joint issues so he had to be retired really early), was MASSIVE....over standard in height and about 95 pounds thin. He was always very sure footed. You can see his DW here https://vimeo.com/11587856 He was surprisingly capable of very tight turns.

But he tended to get a bit whiplash on the teeter despite all our rock back work- you can see an example here https://vimeo.com/13288390 

I am hoping to teach Trauma differently in that respect because it always made me cringe a little....


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow... massive indeed! LOL! I'll tell you what though- what a nice looking dog! Really good agility! Geesh... I need to get out there and practice more.  You guys are showing me up big time! :rofl:

I see the whiplash you're talking about on the teeter, and I also see the hesitant teeter performances that happened after that whiplash. That rock back, weight shift is so very important! I'm not far enough in SG's Contact Course yet to offer any instruction, but truth be told- I'm guessing you already have a plan.


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

Zanto is incredibly gorgeous. He is living with family as he was very unhappy being left home all the time when I went to training :-( now he doesn't know what he is missing and is quite content. He has such a fantastic personality also. 

The whiplash would happen on teeters that dropped faster than others. He had learned how to rock back but on a very fast teeter, he would try and get to the end immediately and it would drop out from under his almost 100 pounds. I kind of think it would have been safer in the long run to teach him to rock back right after the pivot point. It would have made for a slightly slower teeter but maybe safer for him? It would have gone against everything I have ever done with my border collies though LOL.

I have no plan with Trauma...he is much smaller than Zanto and thus might not encounter the same issues. So I am on the fence on whether I should teach him to blast to the end and rock back or target higher up the teeter for a split second and then go into the 2o2o. Hmm...I really have no idea......I guess I should play around with it tomorrow and see what natural behavior he offers first. I welcome all thoughts.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sorry I didn't see the video earlier....*I think it's great. * Love your dog and the way you are handling with lots of rewards and the reward being a toy.

First I'd lower it, that way you can just work about speed and have zero worries about if he does come off. I think he's being careful AND THATS SMART..... But you can train 100% what you are doing with the dogwalk lower for a bit.

Also, what is your criteria for the down contacts? What exactly are you 'yesing' and releasing for (is it the nose touch? or 2on/2off?). IF it's the nose touch, will you be asking for that at trials?

What's your ultimate plan, always a 2on/2off (but with a quick release they can be fast)? Or a running contact?

IF you aren't teaching a running contact, the one thing you need to be aware of is that the #1 cue our dogs follow, specially when amped and excited is following our motion/movement. So what happens alot of time is we THINK our dog is releasing when we say 'yes' but that's not actually what's going on at all. They are releasing when we do some physical motion thing (arm move to throw frisbee? leg move forward? shoulders?). 

This means when we may need a longer pause at the bottom of the dog walk and THINK we are getting it so move to do some amazing handler move like a front cross, we are suddenly tangled in dog or maybe get the dog leaping over the contact completely. Because THEY cued on some movement we made when WE thought they'd stay in place until released.

Just something to be aware of.... unless you are teaching a running contact and then forget everything I just typed! 

aw:


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## christinaekenn (Jan 10, 2011)

He will be a 2o2o not running. Right now, the target is out there for him to reference but I am not requiring him to nose touch it anymore. If that behavior fades away, I am OK with that. Since it was his first time on a full dogwalk, I didn't want to worry about him holding the contact so much. I just wanted to work on confidence and an "attempt" to stop if that makes sense. So I was releasing him very quickly with the yes as soon as his front feet hit the grass and then would toss the frisbee. Almost at the same time to keep the drive to the end and not worry about the height or the fact that he had a spill earlier. I have been proofing the actual 2o2o on a dogwalk ramp that is set on a full sized table. That way we can do more repetitions on the actual bottom contact and not worry about the entire dogwalk. As he gets his footing and more comfortable, I will start to make him hold the contact on the full dogwalk longer and start to proof it (ie throwing a toy but not releasing, running well past the end, sending ahead etc). 

I agree that I should lower the dogwalk...but getting my husband to help is like pulling hairs  But great point and I will try and make him come up to the field to get it lower for me today. I need to work my border collie on a lower dogwalk anyway LOL 

THANKS!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I would hesitate to push speed and loose your 2on/20ff. I LOVED when you had him hop up at the end and drive down 'to the position'.

If I were you, I would really only work speed with it low. So he WILL get more confident and there will be zero issues if he does happen to mis-step while figuring out this 'running fast on a narrow plank thing'. I want my dogs to know if they fall off it's no big deal.... and they learn that by coming off or falling off, but with it low! 

Other advantage of keeping it low is the angle is less for the 2on/2off on your dog physically. Meaning that if I train many times on a full height aframe, at speed, there would be way more impact on my dogs physically then if I worked it at a lower angle. 

For this reason I rarely 'train' tons of full aframes or dogwalks at speed. I must have the 2on/2off, and I want the speed. So, for me, when I'm going to train it over and over and over, then low it goes.

Frankly, I only really get on a full aframe and/or dogwalk in weekly classes or trials. But I can still TRAIN a ton just on the bottom of contacts or with them lowered. So the behavior (fast? or 2on/2off?) I can still get, just save some wear and tear on their bodies.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> IF you aren't teaching a running contact, the one thing you need to be aware of is that the #1 cue our dogs follow, specially when amped and excited is following our motion/movement. So what happens alot of time is we THINK our dog is releasing when we say 'yes' but that's not actually what's going on at all. They are releasing when we do some physical motion thing (arm move to throw frisbee? leg move forward? shoulders?).
> 
> This means when we may need a longer pause at the bottom of the dog walk and THINK we are getting it so move to do some amazing handler move like a front cross, we are suddenly tangled in dog or maybe get the dog leaping over the contact completely. Because THEY cued on some movement we made when WE thought they'd stay in place until released.
> 
> ...


Yep, this is my life right now  I was using a 4 on, which is similar to the 2o2o and in practice he would stop very nicely. In trials I was using a quick release and it took me a while to realize that he wasn't actually paying attention to my release at all, he was just going unless I really got his attention and slowed him down to stop- which ate up lots of time.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Yep, this is my life right now  I was using a 4 on, which is similar to the 2o2o and in practice he would stop very nicely. *In trials I was using a quick release* and it took me a while to realize that he wasn't actually paying attention to my release at all, he was just going unless I really got his attention and slowed him down to stop- which ate up lots of time.


One of the best things for me when we NQ in a standard run, is I go into training mode, many times at contacts. I throw in front crosses on the bottom, then front cross back. I'll have them nail the 2on/2off and then do a huge lead out to/past the next obstacle (something I'd never normally do at a trial). Hey, we already blew the run, may as well get some practice in! 

I also RARELY do a real quick release anyways, even if we just stop for a sec, I want to see that 'stop' . Both Bretta and Glory are definitely the types if I gave in inch, they will take a mile. If they figure out that a trial means WHOOHOO NO CONTACTS, they'll be leaping from the top of the aframe in no time! :wild:


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> One of the best things for me when we NQ in a standard run, is I go into training mode, many times at contacts. I throw in front crosses on the bottom, then front cross back. I'll have them nail the 2on/2off and then do a huge lead out to/past the next obstacle (something I'd never normally do at a trial). Hey, we already blew the run, may as well get some practice in!
> 
> I also RARELY do a real quick release anyways, even if we just stop for a sec, I want to see that 'stop' . Both Bretta and Glory are definitely the types if I gave in inch, they will take a mile. If they figure out that a trial means WHOOHOO NO CONTACTS, they'll be leaping from the top of the aframe in no time! :wild:


Yeah, I totally screwed this up. I am going to try Trkman's running contact method. I have 2 1/2 months before our next trial. I'm going to buy a plank this weekend and start training, eventually moving to a full dogwalk and so I'm going to build one to train on more often. I'm hoping just natural stride and muscle memory will help- we've been using a running on the a-frame pretty successfully.


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