# Multiple Titles - Why?



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Okay, I've been trialing my Doerak in Rally Novice A and we just finished our RN Saturday with all scores in the 90's. During the award presentation for the Excellent and Advanced classes, there was one lady working on her 10th RAE(?). What is the point of that? Ten, I mean. She keeps getting 100 and 99, and seems to me she's just taking up space and ruining it for the other trialers by eliminating the blue ribbon for anybody else (unless somebody else can get a 100 and be faster than her). Really, how many blue ribbons does somebody need! Doerak will never get a blue ribbon for anything and I really wouldn't want to make him trial forever just so we can get one. We have better things to do with our life - like chasing the Kongs. OH! Does this have anything to do with being on TV?


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

No, nothing to do with being on TV. 

To get the RAE title, one must compete in both Rally Excellent and Rally Advanced classes at the same show and earn a qualifying score (leg) in both of these classes at the same show, 10 times. So, that means that when she earned her 10th RAE leg (having qualified in both Excellent and Advanced classes the same day), then she earned her RAE title.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Many people just enjoy competing with their dogs. It's their hobby. In many venues, there is a top title with no further to advance past that. So people will repeat the same title over and over, working on getting better scores and putting on better performances because it allows them to compete and do what they enjoy with their dog.

They're certainly not doing it to ruin it for anyone else, or to get on TV. They're just doing it because they enjoy it.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildMany people just enjoy competing with their dogs. It's their hobby. In many venues, there is a top title with no further to advance past that. So people will repeat the same title over and over, working on getting better scores and putting on better performances because it allows them to compete and do what they enjoy with their dog.


Yes, exactly! There are people I see regularly at trials who are working on RAE7, RAE4, etc., and that's why they continue to do it.

It's also good for the dogs to keep working. Rally is a good venue for older dogs because it is relatively low impact and they can still participate and do well, even if they aren't as agile as they once were. For example, there's a 10 year-old GSD with DM that I see at trials all the time and I'm sure he's finished his RAE by now. (He also has a UD) I first saw him last year and, I swear, he looks so much better physically now than he did back then. He almost always places too, which is very nice to see.

In Exc. B and Adv. B, I was always up against dogs with multiple RAEs and also UDX's and, yes, they do take a big share of the placements. But I don't care much about placements and I see it as more of a training issue. I don't train nearly as much as they do and I certainly don't train to that level of perfection because I do other sports with my dogs and I don't make the time to do so.

I think the original intent of rally was to encourage more people to enter traditional obedience, rather than to become a serious venue. However, it has taken a life of its own and really taken off. To me, the more people trying it out for the first time or staying in it for years, the better. It's just great to see people out there doing things with their dogs.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

She was on her 94th leg!


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BlackPuppyShe was on her 94th leg!


Lol! I always wonder how people doing that many RAE's can afford it. I figure it costs about $500 in entry fees for each RAE, providing you Q all the time.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: agilegsds
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: BlackPuppyShe was on her 94th leg!
> ...


And that's JUST the entry fees! Up here I have to travel at least 150 miles one way for almost all trials, and then I have motel costs too. I'd have to have a lot of money to waste.

Personally I don't continue to show past the RE or the UD for that matter. I like new material - either a new challenge with the same dog, or starting with a new dog. That's just me. I remember when they first started talking about the UDX and I was excited that there was going to be something more to work on past the UD, and then I found out it meant you just continued to show in the same classes ad naseum until you had ten DQ's. To me, that's just a money maker for AKC and not a new challenge in training. I will admit that it shows a level of consistency and commitment on the part of the dog and handler, but it would have been far more interesting to me to see them think up NEW exercises instead of just doing open and utility over and over.

I feel the same about the RAE. I've already shown that my dog can do the exercises, so I'm just not too interested in doing it over and over just so that the kennel club can rake in more money. Now, if they offered a new class with new exercises that would be fun for me! I'd like to see them have a class where the dogs have to heel on the right as well as the left (which they do in some venues, but not AKC) and do some new exercises that challenge us to train beyond what we've already trained.

I'm so darn demanding! *LOL* 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BlackPuppy I really have to agree. I think that RAE should have their own classes. But really, I think they do in a way. 

What really bums me out is dogs with an advanced obedience title working in Rally Novice. Come on guys, if the dog is a UDX, it can certainly heel around the ring with you and get a 99 or 100. I think Rally Novice A and B should be for Rally Novice dogs, not dogs with titles, obedience or agility.

Rally is the stepping stone into obedience and agility. Going up against these dogs can be discouraging. 

I titled Rushie, Arwen, and Babs at the Madison shows so I titled all three in Novice A, because I did them concurrently. Rushie placed first, second, and third in his three legs. Arwen did not qualify my first time out because I stupidly skipped a station, but she placed second (to Rushie) fourth and fourth again in her next three tries. Babsy placed first and second and had a qualifying score (#5 behind Arwen). This was enough to really get the bug going with me. 

So then Jenna had to compete in Rally Novice B. Ok, fine, she is more of an agility type dog with lots of energy and lots of fun (mischeif) and I wasn't expecting miracles out of her. Still I placed third (only because we qualified and there were only three dogs in the shepherd specialty). I got a ribbon though and she had taken second at a match so I was pretty happy with her.

But Whitney and Heidi got three straight green ribbons each. The competition was tough in Cleveland. We did not come close to placement. Both of them were better than Jenna. But these were puppies, and fresh, going against dogs with obedience titles, and agility titles. Dogs with half the alphabet after their names. Sure that is nice, but they should start in Rally Advanced B. 

If you have one dog, then you can enter that one dog a bazillion times, and spend the rest of your life training that one dog. You should come away with blue ribbons. Training eight dogs and titling six dogs in a year is a bit different, and green ribbons still provide you with an RN at the end of the day. They are not quite as pretty on the bulletin board, but that is only because I prefer the colors red and blue to green.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I guess I see it differently that most others. If you feel that these folks are taking all the ribbons and glory of winning, WORK HARDER. They shouldn't have to stay home just because you can't beat them. That isn't their fault. 

This isn't directed at anyone inparticular. Just coming from someone that has been on the receiving end of the exact same complaints. (And this was before there was even such a thing as Rally.) The way I see it, you can either "suck it up" and continue yourself, or the complainers can be the ones to stay home.

The way I felt was if folks have trouble with me and my dogs beating them all the time, TOO BAD. And with me, the complaints were coming from folks with the "usual suspects" for obedience dogs. Goldens, Shelties and Papillions. They also usually only had 1 dog they were training and showing and I had 3. I had a German Shepherd, a Standard Schnauzer and a German Shorthaired Pointer.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I say good for her. She probably is having a blast.
At first when my boxer started agility everyone overlooked her and just worried about the border collie's. As we were working towaords our RAE title some lady asked when I was going to retire my dog. 
SHE WAS ONLY THREE! Twice at events I have heard "







, she is here." Go buy a blue ribbon if that is all it is about. 
I took two years off because of two ACL injuries so we started back slow. Ava is just a natural athlete. If you want to beat her just meet us in the obedience ring. She does have her CDX but it was a hard road. Now I realize you should concentrate on what the dog enjoys. Obedience was a drag for Ava and I feel guilty I forced her to do it.

I will do better by my shepherd. I was hoping for shulzhand but it looks like he will be too laid back. He is probably going to be my obedience champ or resident couch potatoe.


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## amjrchamberlain (Mar 8, 2005)

Ohmygosh. I misunderstood the question in my original response. LOL 

Either way, I agree with the "if you want better placements, work harder" camp. I have always thought of going for the RAE as a waste of time and money. However, with our agility class just starting, we are months away from getting to compete with Apollo in agility. Until then, we have decided to work on his RAE. It means we get to keep working in a ring, and get the chance to make every ring experience no pressure and much fun! When he is ready for agility, that's where he'll go and we'll stop trialing in Rally.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yep good for her!!!!

I would like to see AKC institute a C class like UKC but that is not likely anytime soon. 

I have been beaten by UDX dogs in Rally etc but as a good sport I am happy for them.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm not much of a competitor, I was thrilled to get a couple of place ribbons. It was very unexpected. It just seems awfully repetitive to do the same thing 94 times. And trials are such a huge waste of time. I did enjoy chatting with people, but I'm a single woman with 3 dogs and a messy house. I have other things to do.









I guess I did have an similar obsession at one time. One year I went to 22 Weird Al Yankovic concerts and also traveled to Australia to have that distinction. So, I'm not totally innocent.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I do not think I could sit through one Weird Al Yankovic concerts let alone 22!

That is what makes life so interesting. There is something for everyone.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

He he. I love "Weird Al."

I don't know that I could go to 94 trials doing the same thing though. Repeating a title once or twice. . .maybe. But I'd rather move on and do something else with the Mutt.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am a big Weird Al fan too. I once thought I outgrew him and gave my friends son all my weird al cassettes. 

I then had to replace them. Sick. I heard he has an album out now that I do not have.


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## csaiz (Dec 21, 2006)

I have been and will be on both sides of the fence.

Last year, at my 1st ever obedience trial (Novice A) at our local GSD specialty show Kati and I had to compete against a dog with a SCH1 - I was more then upset







when I found out.

Between then and now we managed to get ou CD








Getting the CDX is another story, Kati is really an "airhead"








and a big Momma's Girl.

So I decided not to stress her out training CDX stuff.
To make a long story short, we are going to our first Rally Trial in a couple of days, at our local GSD Specialty show where the SCH1 dog tried to show off in Novice A last year - but NQ'd for breaking the downstay









I can already hear it now: Whats a dog with a CD doing in Rally Novice B ?"

More power to you Kati


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Just have fun!!!!

I Love to train my dogs. The title is icing on the cake. The training builds the bond not the title!!!

Kayos earned her CD with a pretty good score well over 190, she was 2nd in Nov B. A year later at the same show my friend earned her CD on a dobe. Placed first in Nov B with a 171!!! No one else qualified! It happens! Just have fun and do the best you can. NO one sees the score and it won't be on the title certificate!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW NO one sees the score and it won't be on the title certificate!


This is especially good when you get to the Utility A class .. *L* .. it's not unusual up here to be the only qualifier and both of the dogs I earned UD's on earned theirs with three first placings! The title photos look mighty good with those blue ribbons, and I don't even remember the scores (good thing!) .. *G*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You know the joy is in the accomplishment of the training . I never go into the ring thinking about placements. I go in to show off my dog's training. If we have a bad day that is okay if we win that is great, but not the real reason I am there. 

I am not a very competitive person but I do want to show so I like that my title is just as valuable as someone's whose dogs were first every time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ I'm w/ you Kathy I am not competitive with my dogs at ALL which is rare considering I was a competitive gymnast so I've got the mental thing down pat. I did not even know you GOT ribbons or placements or anything like that until we did our first show and I got handed two ribbons at once. I just wanted to Q out of novice ASAP so we can work without a leash!


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## grmnshpd21 (May 5, 2005)

I never even really look at the dogs I'm against in competition most of the time. I couldn't even tell you if they had a SchH title, agility title or any other title at that. I'm in it to show off what my dog and I can do. I don't worry about placements. I just worry about doing well and scoring over a 170







Being in the ring with my girl is all that matters to me and not how well everyone else has done.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'm a bit competitive but, mostly, I like to show off what I can do with my dog. Which is why I am more than annoyed at the fact that we cannot compete out here.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: mollysmom I'm in it to show off what my dog and I can do. I don't worry about placements.


Exactly!

Dog trials aren't like a horse race where teams are competing against one another. What you're competing against is the score. If there are dog/handler teams that can out score you, so what? If you put on a 185 performance, it's a 185 performance. The fact that someone else earned a 197 doesn't change your score.

I compete in SchH and sure it's nice to get a trophy. But a trophy that was won because no one else showed at that level that day, or I got a mediocre score while everyone else got a really bad score, doesn't really mean much.

On the other hand, when Raven and I earned High Tracking, High Obedience, High Protection, High SchH1 and High in Trial, with really good scores, beating out a fairly decent number of dogs competing, some of which were already titled, I'll admit I was pretty annoyed to find out that club didn't do trophies and we didn't get squat for the trophy shelf at home!









Sometimes ya just can't win!


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: mollysmomI never even really look at the dogs I'm against in competition most of the time. I couldn't even tell you if they had a SchH title, agility title or any other title at that. I'm in it to show off what my dog and I can do. I don't worry about placements. I just worry about doing well and scoring over a 170
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I look at it pretty much the same way. It is not competition with other teams for us. As far as those who are seriously competing and/or at the top of the ranks frequently, I look at them as an opportunity to observe and learn from their techniques and handling of their dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

People who do things with their dogs LIKE to do things with their dogs. Training and competing in multiple venues is an accomplishemnt for both handler and dog - and illustrates the versatility of the European working dog (as it is my post, I am stating my philosophy and thoughts, and it is a bonus that it can showcase the type to the AKC crowd who don't normally see this type of GSD).

So what if someone takes a Sch1 (or 2 or 3) in a rally or ob class in an AKC show?? I do AKC ob and schutzhund, why shouldn't I? The high drive schutzhund dogs *can* actually be at a disadvantage in AKC as they may not be as precise and measured as the dogs are who are primarily trained for AKC. The rule and scoring differences present their own set of challenges for a high drive schutzhund trained dog - I won't NQ for the dog jumping on me in a recall in Sch, but will in AKC. The instructor I have worked with for year is an AKC rally judge and I did a couple of run throughs last week and she was berating me for not entering the dogs in an upcoming show. There is nothing wrong with taking a well trained dog into a fun class like rally - actually since the courses change so much, it can be a challenge for them too! AKC obedience can be a challenge for a Schutzhund dog just because of the distractions - Basha who is Schh3, IP3, showed at class that she will jump a gate for a dumbbell someone else throws - so just because a dog has a title does not mean that it is a perfect dog and will take away all the ribbons in an AKC trial! If I can get through the CD without her jumping the gate into the CDX ring after their dumbbells, LOL LOL the CDX shouldn't be a problem!

Lee


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Excellent post Lee and Chris!!! It is hard to put into words why we show sometimes.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I also meant to mention - some of our older dogs who may physically be slowing down for the schutzhund field, or who are retired from it to let a younger dog be titled, still like to work, go places, and train. 

AND!!! When schutzhund is your primary interest, watch the handler errors! I have switched hands on a lead, moved my arms too much, and done German about turns at AKC trials - the judge commented that *I* lost all the points in the routine, not the dog! 















But hey! At a GSDCA local specialty, mine was the only GSD to get a qualifying score in Novice! My screwy errors notwithstanding!

Lee


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I don't mind at all if a SchH or CD dog competes against me in Rally, but, I'm extra happy if we place and get a pretty ribbon.







The real reason why I'm there is to see if we can qualify and get a title for my dog, even though we hardly train and only really compete on the most basic levels of any sport. It's nice to hear everybody's opinion about why they are there. (I still think 94 is obsessive.







)

I've started training my Malinois and she
s a smart one, who knows, we might even pass the Novice levels when we start competing.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't understand why people get mad when people show dogs with SchH titles in AKC obedience.

The handler and dog have to start at the bottom of the performance totem pole just like everybody else. It's that or don't compete, and that's not fair.

Where else would they go? And why should a dog that hasn't proven itself at the AKC novice level be allowed to work for the CDX (or higher) right away, simply because it already does retrieves when the rest of us have to start with the CD, even if we've trained the dog through utiliy?

I've competed against dogs with SchH titles too....and beaten them.


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## Dogstar (Apr 2, 2007)

Delurking briefly , but geez, ya'll have low-scoring placements in Rally. Here in the DFW area, it's unusual to have a score below a 95 place in rally! Mal's leg last summer was an 88 and we were dead last!  

I *do* wish they had a C class in both rally AND obedience for people working on UDX, RAE, and multi-OTCH dogs. But I'd also like another level of Rally that was more challenging (tunnels! Retrieves! leaving your dog in motion!) But mostly, I just wish I was a better trainer so that my dogs would score higher!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Scores depend a lot on the show and whether you are in the A or B division. 

Kayos earned her RN with a 99 and never placed. But she had an RE leg with a 94 and was 3rd. so it depends on many factors.


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## DanL (Jun 30, 2005)

This is an interesting topic! I can really relate this to my powerlifting ventures. My attitude there is, I'm competing against myself. I'd rather set a personal best on each lift and not place, than to have an off day and win a trophy because I was the only one in my age and weight group, or because the competition was not as good. A perfect day is when I can set some personal bests and still win against good competition. 

I'm going to do the same thing with Gunnar. We're training for a CD now, and I hope to get it sometime over the summer. I'm not going to worry about who else is doing what. It'll be he and I in the ring, doing our best. If we pass, great. If not, we learn from our mistakes and compete another day. Either way, I have what to me is a great dog, who has been a perfect companion the 3 years we've been together. Even if he never earns a title, he's still my guy. In reality, he's got a great stay and a great recall- the 2 most important things any dog can have. The rest is icing on the cake.


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