# Green dog



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

How much would you guys pay for a green dog, say 18-24 months?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

No training at all?


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Need more info. Hips and elbows done, passing? Decent pedigree? Working, show?


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Well say working line, good pedigree. Pedigree is kinda subjective depending on who you talk to, but we’ll say good to whoever is answering. You can talk about how the other things impact your decision.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Aren’t they usually imported from Europe because kennels here don’t offer them. I thought they could be either but are usually WL


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

There isn’t a large market for green dogs in the us, not for civilians anyway. The vast majority are Euro imports. You can actually find them in both lines. I would expect 3-4 grand with minimal training, and up to about 7 depending on how close they were to being titled. I’m curious what you guys say though. You can really fill the blanks as you want and talk about the different things you consider.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

how about a bred green female? do you accept pesos? 

I kid, because I love


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

For a bred female I would start at the price I would pay before, add the stud fee, and work down. Females are really hard to find on the market here, good ones at least.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

What is the purpose for the dog? 

3000 for a tested 12-16 months GSD. Good hunt. Good nerves. Good drive. No training. They will typically be a little handler aggressive at first but it goes away quickly with proper training. Be prepared to test any dog you are willing to purchase.

I'd suggest going through a broker that does some volume. Better customers tend to get better dogs.

All the green dogs I have experience with are from Holland. Others may differ. Hips and elbows were guaranteed. A less than good x-ray resulted in replacement of the dog. They were 2400 at the time (2013) but I recently was in contact with a broker and they are going for 3000 now a days.

These were dogs going into MIL and LE roles.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> What is the purpose for the dog?
> 
> 3000 for a tested 12-16 months GSD. Good hunt. Good nerves. Good drive. No training. They will typically be a little handler aggressive at first but it goes away quickly with proper training. Be prepared to test any dog you are willing to purchase.
> 
> ...


If it was for me, it would be a sport/personal protection dog. I had a conversation and I wanted to check how similar what I knew was to other people. The hip guarantee is something I wasn’t use to with older dogs. There is a pretty good chance the next dog I get will be a green dog. That’s a couple years out at least though. I need to see how it goes with the two I have now before I decide on the direction I want to go next.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> really hard to find on the market here


 my curiosity is piqued, but you aren't being quite clear? are you overseas browsing available green dogs right now? if so, what country?


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> my curiosity is piqued, but you aren't being quite clear? are you overseas browsing available green dogs right now? if so, what country?


Clear about what? You take a quote out of context. I am in Southern California. I usually keep an eye on what’s available and what the market looks like. If I come across something I really like and don’t want to pass up, I’ll probably do it as long as my circumstances permit. There’s no specific country I’m currently looking in. If there was, it would probably be Germany. I look more at brokers here in the states though.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The hip guarantee might not be a normal thing. The kennels I was working for has a small kennels and personnel in Holland where they test and hold dogs until they get 14 to ship. They move a lot of dogs, so that probably affords them the opportunity to make some stipulations that are outside those that a smaller broker could manage.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> How much would you guys pay for a green dog, say 18-24 months?


 ok, got it now. Sorry. I imagined you were maybe on a trip overseas gathering a herd for export or something.

I imagine a sharp trader with cash in hand might talk some sellers way, waay down


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> The hip guarantee might not be a normal thing. The kennels I was working for has a small kennels and personnel in Holland where they test and hold dogs until they get 14 to ship. They move a lot of dogs, so that probably affords them the opportunity to make some stipulations that are outside those that a smaller broker could manage.


How serious was that handler aggression you typically saw? We’re they coming back with full intensity? Did you guys start working them as soon as they arrived?


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> How serious was that handler aggression you typically saw? We’re they coming back with full intensity? Did you guys start working them as soon as they arrived?


Typically not serious. Nothing I would expect a pet home to successfully deal with, but an experienced handler should be fine. Nothing like a full on wanted to kill you fight.

Yes, they start working within a few days of arrival.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> ok, got it now. Sorry. I imagined you were maybe on a trip overseas gathering a herd for export or something.
> 
> I imagine a sharp trader with cash in hand might talk some sellers way, waay down


Currently, I'm unable to travel. Maybe once things change I’ll take a trip to look at some dogs. I don’t think I’ll be adding to my family currently until one the two I have now is retired. Thats a ways away.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Typically not serious. Nothing I would expect a pet home to successfully deal with, but an experienced handler should be fine. Nothing like a full on wanted to kill you fight.
> 
> Yes, they start working within a few days of arrival.


That isn’t too bad. It’s the ones were your in a constant struggle I like to avoid. When I have seen it, it’s usually an inexperienced with more dog than they were ready for, or dogs that have had multiple handlers.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

David Winners said:


> Typically not serious. Nothing I would expect a pet home to successfully deal with, but an experienced handler should be fine. Nothing like a full on wanted to kill you fight.
> 
> Yes, they start working within a few days of arrival.


Does that mean they would growl and snap at the new owner/handler? Is this expected behavior from a dog destined for working?


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> When I have seen [handler aggression], it’s usually an inexperienced with more dog than they were *ready* for, or dogs that have had multiple handlers.


 I dealt with a little "handler aggression" here very early on. He nipped at my hand while I was releasing him. He was so young/small, looking back I've wondered if I even caught it the first time? Whatever the case, I was well prepared to shut that nonsense down next time around, but it never happened again. In other words I didn't even have to correct it. All it took was my being *ready* to correct it. Call it attitude? Poise? Vibe? I was ready, and that's all it took. My point simply being, I can easily see where something as simple as that might get_ totally out of control _in the wrong hands.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

CactusWren said:


> Does that mean they would growl and snap at the new owner/handler? Is this expected behavior from a dog destined for working?


Dogs are individuals. Some are jerks. Some are social. Some come up the leash when you correct them. Some are sensitive. If you are asking this question, don't get a green dog. 

What I'm saying is that in order to take a dog with this kind of drive at 12-18 months old with no training, you have to know what you are doing. If a dog growling/snapping at you makes you nervous, get a puppy or a trained dog. Fama bit me 4 times the first week I had her.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I dealt with a little "handler aggression" here very early on. He nipped at my hand while I was releasing him. He was so young/small, looking back I've wondered if I even caught it the first time? Whatever the case, I was well prepared to shut that nonsense down next time around, but it never happened again. In other words I didn't even have to correct it. All it took was my being *ready* to correct it. Call it attitude? Poise? Vibe? I was ready, and that's all it took. My point simply being, I can easily see where something as simple as that might get_ totally out of control _in the wrong hands.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.

A puppy nipping you testing the boundaries is completely unrelated to handler aggression in a mature(ing) dog.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I think it does. I think little puppy gsd nips often grow into much bigger problems in the wrong hands



Bearshandler said:


> When I have seen [handler aggression] it’s usually an inexperienced with more dog than they were ready for [ ]


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> That isn’t too bad. It’s the ones were your in a constant struggle I like to avoid. When I have seen it, it’s usually an inexperienced with more dog than they were ready for, or dogs that have had multiple handlers.


GSDs take a minute to trust you. You have to be able to read the dog and act accordingly to establish that trust. Many will try and punk you out. If this works, they own you.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

David Winners said:


> If a dog growling/snapping at you makes you nervous, get a puppy or a trained dog.


in this country many available dogs are "green" because they weren't aggressive enough to bother training. It's a mixed bag and you can probably find just about whatever you want if you look around.


----------



## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

David Winners said:


> Dogs are individuals. Some are jerks. Some are social. Some come up the leash when you correct them. Some are sensitive. If you are asking this question, don't get a green dog.
> 
> What I'm saying is that in order to take a dog with this kind of drive at 12-18 months old with no training, you have to know what you are doing. If a dog growling/snapping at you makes you nervous, get a puppy or a trained dog. Fama bit me 4 times the first week I had her.


I hear you--trust me, I have no intention of getting a real working dog. Jupiter is quite enough! Just interested in how it is "on the other side."


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I was lucky enough to be a part of a discussion years ago regarding handler aggression with well known and respected breeders and / or trainers of LE dogs, some of which used to post on this forum.

I walked away with the understanding that many dogs being trained for work aren't given the time to bond with their new handlers and that, coupled with often compulsion based training and strong dogs, can result in handler aggression. The other group of handlers that experience handler aggression tended to be men, especially young men, whose training was based in compulsion. All of the experienced people in the discussion concurred that handler aggression directed toward a female was uncommon.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would call all of that similar to my experience. Our handlers typically had an afternoon to become acquainted before training started the following morning. The way we avoided handler aggression was to not allow the handlers to correct the dog for anything their first week together. That works pretty well.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My trainer was given two 2 year old dogs when he first became a military handler, with basic obedience and nothing else and told to make it work. They were single purpose dogs. One was for sniffing bombs and the other for apprehension. He was young and green himself. He figured out a method he still uses today to train family or working dogs. Give the dog one task at a time, then allow the dog to choose that option. It works very well. He starts without compulsion, then eases into whatever is needed for the dog to choose the option it needs to learn. He has a lot of tools, some as simple as treats, praise or leash pressure, others more aversive but only if necessary. He has never been bitten by dogs he worked.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I would call all of that similar to my experience. Our handlers typically had an afternoon to become acquainted before training started the following morning. The way we avoided handler aggression was to not allow the handlers to correct the dog for anything their first week together. That works pretty well.





LuvShepherds said:


> My trainer was given two 2 year old dogs when he first became a military handler, with basic obedience and nothing else and told to make it work. They were single purpose dogs. One was for sniffing bombs and the other for apprehension. He was young and green himself. He figured out a method he still uses today to train family or working dogs. Give the dog one task at a time, then allow the dog to choose that option. It works very well. He starts without compulsion, then eases into whatever is needed for the dog to choose the option it needs to learn. He has a lot of tools, some as simple as treats, praise or leash pressure, others more aversive but only if necessary. He has never been bitten by dogs he worked.


I figured easing into training was the way to go. I figured you guys would have to get going sooner. I feel like it’s comparable to taking the leash of someone of someone else’s dog. Bear has never shown any aggression towards me, but I handed the leash to someone else who was trying to show me something, and he didn’t take to well to a leash pop. It wasn’t a major correction or anything, just to get his attention. He responded with a growl and stare down. I think it’s easier to bond without the previous handler around. As for the jerks, the growls aren’t a big deal. I’ve seen that happen to handlers with dogs they raised. If they actually come up lead, I think some good leash work will be your best friend.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've known 2 exceptions. Neither was gsd, but it happens.









RIP Constantine Attila von BachHaus 2 x IPO3 Recipient


My condolences go out to Walter Bach and the Summerwood Farm von BachHaus kennel for the recent loss of their top dog (and Saoirse's sire) Attila. Unfortunately its a sad story. Attila went to...



caninebrats.weebly.com





I was warned little igor's genetics tend toward handler aggression, but so far, so good here. I was told that goes all the way back to utz.

Within certain other breed working (protection/sport) breeder circles the "strategy" is to select way over the top handler aggressive breeding stock in hopes of higher % potential candidates per litter. I have no idea how prevalent that mentality is, but I've never heard of it with gsd.


----------



## KevinK9 (Sep 27, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I was warned little igor's genetics tend toward handler aggression, but so far, so good here. I was told that goes all the way back to utz.


It also depends on what pup your breeder selected for you in the litter. If you have a VPAT 4 pup, very unlikely to show this trait. 

If you like this trait, I would be selecting VPAT 1 pups.

Lots of strong dogs coming through Tyson von der Schiffslache_._


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've seen tyson in the peds of great some looking dogs. And even in the case above, I really think it all comes down to the handler. Just because_ that_ guy couldn't handle_ that_ dog doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have been great on the end of somebody else's lead. I only posted that article as an example that_ it does happen_ in some cases.


----------



## KevinK9 (Sep 27, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I've seen tyson in the peds of great some looking dogs. And even in the case above, I really think it all comes down to the handler. Just because_ that_ guy couldn't handle_ that_ dog doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have been great on the end of somebody else's lead. I only posted that article as an example that_ it does happen_ in some cases.


I think certain lines have a genetic propensity for handler aggression. I'm also not talking about redirected/frustration handler aggression or poor foundational training either.

I agree that the handler is a factor of whether handler aggression manifests itself. And, I also agree that most dog owners aren't capable of handling these types of dogs. 

Strong smart leadership, forming deep bonds, and trust with these types of dogs is paramount. Sometimes you have to go along with the dog without losing face. 

Like David said, if you don't know what to do with this type of dog, they will own you. I would imagine that the average dog owner that encounters this type of dog usually ends up putting them to sleep thinking something is wrong with them. Nothing could be further from the truth. When you know how to handle this type of dog and form a deep relationship with it, they are the best IMO. 

Also, I would point out too, that my experience with these types of dogs are from pups I've raise myself and not from someone else. I'm not as skilled nor have the experience like David, so I'm not sure if I would feel the same way about handler aggression if it was someone else who raised the pup.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I had a lot of dog experience the first time a dog came up the leash for what I thought was nothing. I wasn't used to keeping up with a dog like Fama, mentally or physically. I was just behind the curve. It took a few weeks of school, 9 hour days, to adjust to the speed at which everything happens, and to relax enough to make good decisions and to be a leader. I paid for my mistakes, which is common.

When I started training green dogs, I was fairly prepared but again had to adjust to the DS and BM way of the world. They are different in that they are typically handler soft until they are in drive, and then they are over the top. 

Anyways, you win with these dogs using your mind. You control resources. With a little creativity, there isn't a need for a lot of heavy corrections. The time will come, but if you are firm and don't get all emotional on the dog, you can set your relationship up fairly quickly. You have to be uber confident and really not worried about getting bit.


----------



## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

KevinK9 said:


> my experience with these types of dogs are from pups I've raise myself and not from someone else.


 my current dog, little igor, was the only 49 day old pup I've ever seen attack the VPAT umbrella, and he's fine. I trust him implicitly with all manner of baby livestock, kittens, etc., unsupervised, daily. Well, "attack" is probably a little strong, but he definitely taste tested it. 

However as stated above I have known 2 (neither gsd) individuals with temperament faults so egregious they had to be put down. Take it from a man who won't never play piano right again: sometimes too much is_ too much_.


----------

