# 7 Month Old Working Line GSD Attacked our Kid



## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Here is the situation. We purchased a gsd puppy from a breeder we followed for years. For the first few months, everything was going okay except the puppy refused to go to the bathroom outdoors no matter what. He was super smart and excelled with learning commands. At his 4 month visit only one testicle was descended. Breeder advised to wait it it out. Between that visit and the 6 month visit the dog began exhibiting resource guarding, fear based aggression, territorial aggression, began acting fearful of noises while on walks and a serious dislike of our kids age 10 and 8. When they came downstairs each day he would bark at and jump on them and if they screamed or flinched he would nip them. If they walked past the bedroom (his favorite hang out) he would run at them and bark. We talked to the kids about how they should interact with the dog and spent all day and night monitoring their interactions and trying to keep everyone safe and improve the situation. The dog continued to become more aggressive biting the kids to the point of breaking the skin about 4x. A one and done kind of bite but not at all puppy biting. We contacted the breeder after the dog was kicked out of tractor supply for lunging at staff unprovoked and then had to be muzzled for trying to bite vet staff at his 6 month visit. His testicle still had not descended and the vet advised the dog needed surgery to remove the retained testicle and the remaining testicle. He also expressed his concern that a 6 month old puppy was lashing out and trying to bite people with no warning and no provocation. Things with the dog were not improving despite efforts to train the dog at home. We were careful to always feed him in a locked crate, have him wear a harness so we could easily get him if he needed to be removed from the situation and really tried to get everybody on a better track. We carefully supervised the kids and the dog. We asked the breeder for help and he said the puppy could return later that month (out of state) for board and train at a nearly $4k price tag. We could simply not afford that. He offered no remedy for the testicle. Fast forward to last week. Our kid was trying on his halloween costume when the dog ran out of the room and attacked him knocking him to the ground, dragging him around and biting him repeatedly trying to rip the costume off. Our other dog (who was being seriously bullied by the much larger puppy every day) got involved and also bit my poor kid. I managed to get the dogs off of him and secured to check on him. He had multiple bites and scratches and was very reasonably terrified, but will be okay. It was completely terrifying and I am so glad it wasn't worse. Both the kid and the dogs were up to date on shots. I unfortunately called animal control and both dogs are on a quarantine hold at animal services. We will have to pay hundreds to board the dogs there. My son is now absolutely terrified of the gsd and the dog cannot come back to our family. I cannot trust the dog or ask my child to live with a dog he is terrified of. We have contacted the breeder asking him to take the dog back and he has not assured he will accept the dog back. We are now trying to figure out what we are supposed to do with a 73lb, 7 month old working line gsd that we love deeply and also realize cannot live here ever again. Is it normal for a breeder to not offer a remedy for a genetic defect and an aggressive puppy? I fear this dog will be euthanized and want to do everything to avoid that happening. Where will even take a dog like this. We are devastated. Thanks for your advice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are bad breeders of all lines. If he is not willing to take this dog back after the trouble you have had with him, I guess you can put him in that category. 4k board and train for a puppy he produced that is having serious behavior issues is a bit steep, well it would be here in Ohio. If he is in, say, California, maybe that wouldn't be such a stretch. But one of the things we kind of mark good breeders on is if they will take their pups back. 

I don't know what he would do with such a dog. Rehoming it would be irresponsible unless he could turn it around, if that is possible, and if he has that skill. If there is a genetic temperament issue, that is it is not a leadership issue, the dog can be managed, not changed. If he rehomes such a dog, it is a serious liability. If he keeps it himself, then it takes time and money away from the dogs he is using in his program. He produced the dog and it should be his responsibility to take the dog back, and also his responsibility to make hard decisions concerning the dog. 

When you purchased the dog, you did not know that it had a retained testicle? When you took it for its first vet visit this was not found? Do you have a contract and does it have anything in it that provides for genetic health issues? 

Your kids are your priority. I don't know what you want to do with the other dog. It may be fine without the influence of the other dog. In any case, I would hope that your kid has a re-introduction to dogs that is not traumatic. 

I am really sorry you are going through this. I am not familiar with working line dogs, so I am not going to say anything more about it, in hopes that working-line folks can chime in.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Our vet told us about the retained testicle at his first puppy visit but suggested it may still drop. He said should drop by 4 months, but if not by 6 months that it won't. We let the breeder know immediately and he just said to wait it out and that it would drop. At each subsequent visit it did not drop. Now the dog is 7 months old and it remains up in his belly. The breeder said he may have someone who would take the dog (gsd puppy), but no guarantees so we are making other contacts. He may be perfectly fine with a very experienced owner, training, in a working environment and not living with kids. He just can't live here. We loved this dog and spent a lot of time and money on him. My husband dreamed of owning him for years. We just can't take the risk with our kids. Our other dog is an Australian Shepherd. He is 2. Before we got the gsd he was a great dog. Pulls on leash and wary of strangers, but a good boy. We took him everywhere his first year. He is an incredible athlete and loves to hike and play frisbee. He and my husband were attacked badly by an off leash dog when we lived in a loft community. We moved and bought a house. After the attack he seemed to have a heightened wariness of dogs and strangers, so we just didn't let people pet him and kept him away from strange dogs. No problem. He (the aussie) did bite a fed ex guy that entered our gate as I was backing out the door just as the delivery guy entered our gate unannounced. Really bad timing. The guy only needed a band aid but fed ex sent him to the hospital per company protocol which sent animal services to our door. We showed his shot records, did the 10 day home quarantine and that was that. From the aussie's perspective a strange man was walking up behind his mom on our property. He was trying to protect. After that we put up a bad dog sign (hoa requires only that wording on sign), began locking our gate at all times and got motion cameras so we would know if strangers came on our property. After the gsd puppy got past that 4 month stage, he started really dominating our aussie. Wouldn't let him get treats, got super jealous if we pet the aussie, wouldn't let the aussie come in the bedroom etc. They fought a lot, but no blood was ever drawn. Sometimes they seemed fine together. We always kept the gsd in the crate for meal times and tried to do their toy play and training times separately because that was another source of conflict. Initially we said the aussie had to go too, but after talking to several rescues and the animal services they said he will not last more than 2 days beyond the quarantine period if we don't pick him up. We contacted a very reputable trainer in our area and they would love to do behavior modification with him. The kids miss him and are saying a big fat no to the gsd but they want the aussie home. We are considering bringing him home with a temporary muzzle/more supervision and professional training. If he is unable to regain our trust or shows any sign of aggression to family members then he will take that sad last ride to the vet. It is horrible. We feel like the gsd being a 7 month old akc papered puppy with police k9 parents, that he has more of a chance of finding the right home. We will absolutely disclose his issues and only select a placement that is appropriate...but we have super limited time because he cannot come here from the animal services to our house. We have 6 days until he has to be somewhere else. I really hope the breeder takes him back. He is a trainer and could help this dog but he said, "your emergency is not my emergency". Yikes. We hate this entire situation.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Did the breeder provide a contract with the puppy?


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Yes. The contract says IF he has space the dog can be returned and you don't get your money back. The problem is he is saying he does not have space. There is nothing in the contract about retained testicle.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Was there a health guarantee?






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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Who is the breeder?


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Nipping and impulse control issues in a young WL shepherd are not surprising esp if they have not received a lot of training. But re-homing is much more difficult if the nerves are poor and contributing to the aggression. Has any trainer looked at the dog? Has he been at least in basic training/puppy classes? If you don't mind asking what is the pedigree? The dog might be manageable in an adult home that is dog savvy but those homes can be hard to come by. Good luck. I do not recommend inexperienced owners, young kids and many WL males as a good combo. Obviously there are exceptions. Frequently bitches are much better choice.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Dunkirk said:


> Was there a health guarantee?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. There was a 30 day health guarantee.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

rotdocpa1 said:


> Nipping and impulse control issues in a young WL shepherd are not surprising esp if they have not received a lot of training. But re-homing is much more difficult if the nerves are poor and contributing to the aggression. Has any trainer looked at the dog? Has he been at least in basic training/puppy classes? If you don't mind asking what is the pedigree? The dog might be manageable in an adult home that is dog savvy but those homes can be hard to come by. Good luck. I do not recommend inexperienced owners, young kids and many WL males as a good combo. Obviously there are exceptions. Frequently bitches are much better choice.


My husband is an experienced dog owner and passionate about working line dogs. He did the training. The puppy knew come, sit, down, spin, heel, and leave it on verbal or hand signal. No professional trainer was employed. The puppy never went for any of the kids in my husband's presence. They would never. I, on the other hand, have never had dogs before these two. Both dogs would perform the commands for me reliably and for the older kids (if they had a treat). Lots of regrets here. My husband feels like he failed all of us. I feel like I tried my best, but obviously was unable to keep the kiddo safe despite best efforts. I am a 125lb woman. I can effectively control one big dog but not two. We will not be seeking another dog until all the kids are grown. Our original purpose was for this puppy to be protection trained. After his issues presented and we spoke with his breeder, it became clear he would never be a good candidate for protection training. My husband considered having him trained for scent detection, but that never came to pass. The time from realizing the dog was having behavior issues beyond what was to be expected and this attack incident was only 1 month. At the time of attack my son had a costume zipped over his face. Horrible situation. It doesn't matter now that the dog could potentially be trained by a professional to be a trustworthy dog again because now the kiddo is terrified of him. Understandably so. We can't ask him to live with a dog that attacked him that he is terrified of. Now we are at a point of trying to find a place for the puppy to be. We failed.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Bearshandler said:


> Who is the breeder?


I don't want to post his name or drag his business in any way. He breeds east german working line shepherds and has a training facility where he teaches obedience, scent detection, and protection training. His dogs come from a police k9 background.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I can relate to having young kids and not wanting a dog I couldn’t trust, if I couldn’t trust my dog I wouldn’t have it in my house either.. for the purpose of rehoming, how was this dog corrected when he acted out or lunged? Also the costume incident what did it look like, growling hair raised and bites? My girl has left some hefty scratches and ruined lots of sweaters, my wife pulled away when she nipped her and it looked much worse than what it is, mouthing pup and pulling away to quickly with sharp baby teeth, she had my 2 yr old by her pony tail when she was really young, but a) they shouldn’t of been unsupervised b) she is a young dog trying to play with that high pitched moving toy c) in that instance I made sure it would never happen again, I only ask this as sometimes inexperienced owners can mistake “aggression” for rough, pent up misguided play, hopefully others can chime in with your next steps their _may_ be nothing wrong with the dog and more situational than the dog itself


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Carter Smith said:


> I can relate to having young kids and not wanting a dog I couldn’t trust, if I couldn’t trust my dog I wouldn’t have it in my house either.. for the purpose of rehoming, how was this dog corrected when he acted out or lunged? Also the costume incident what did it look like, growling hair raised and bites? My girl has left some hefty scratches and ruined lots of sweaters, my wife pulled away when she nipped her and it looked much worse than what it is, mouthing pup and pulling away to quickly with sharp baby teeth, she had my 2 yr old by her pony tail when she was really young, but a) they shouldn’t of been unsupervised b) she is a young dog trying to play with that high pitched moving toy c) in that instance I made sure it would never happen again, I only ask this as sometimes inexperienced owners can mistake “aggression” for rough, pent up misguided play, hopefully others can chime in with your next steps their _may_ be nothing wrong with the dog and more situational than the dog itself


I have only seen the puppy with hair raised twice. Both times were during rough play between the dogs. He did not growl or raise hair during this attack. He jumped off the bed, ran out of the room and when he encountered the costumed child just outside the room, he knocked him to the ground and began biting repeatedly and pulling back trying to rip the costume off. All bites were focused on the hoodie with no bites to exposed legs, face or hands. Our sweet kid was screaming and too scared to take the hoodie off as directed, but did manage to unzip the face. After the attack started the other dog joined in. There is a clear bite with four shallow punctures to the arm, a shallow single puncture on his shoulder but the rest are on the back and look like scratches from teeth. All are healing well and none required medical care. 
Previously when the dog lunged at the kids we would say no and put the dog in the crate at the direction of his breeder. After exiting the crate it was like nothing happened. Sometimes he would wag his tail and sit and obviously want supervised pets from the kids. Previous bites were situations where the dog barked at or jumped on the kids and the flinched, moved erratically or screamed and he bit. One time one of the toddlers appeared with a bag of muffins. He took them from her. She grabbed back for her them and he lunged at her face without warning, but I had my hand on his harness and no contact was made. This last attack, he was dragging the kid around biting him over and over while I tried to gain control of the dogs. 
The dog bit me twice during high value resource guarding incidents and growled at my husband when he tried to take a pig ear from him. 
He never drew blood from our other dog or the cats despite rough play. 
The incidents with strangers, he offered no warning just lunged to bite when they got into his space.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

That must have been terrifying for you and your children. I understand you not wanting him back.

Having said that the incidents and bites you describe sound a lot like rough play. Hackling up is a sign of excitement not necessarily aggression.
The grabbing food is normal, but in no way acceptable and should have been dealt with from the beginning. The resource guarding is also normal without training.
My dog will lunge at strangers in her space uninvited. As would my previous dogs have if not for training and control.

I am not disputing that this is the wrong dog for your home, he needs to be elsewhere. But based solely on your description of behavior and events he does not sound aggressive. He sounds like a punk pup who has been allowed to get away with stuff. With some dogs, boundaries and rules are vital and must be enforced. 
Of course, I cannot see your dog, which may change my mind. 
Is there an option to board him somewhere while you find a home for him?


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> That must have been terrifying for you and your children. I understand you not wanting him back.
> 
> Having said that the incidents and bites you describe sound a lot like rough play. Hackling up is a sign of excitement not necessarily aggression.
> The grabbing food is normal, but in no way acceptable and should have been dealt with from the beginning. The resource guarding is also normal without training.
> ...


 We will look into boarding him. I am still hopeful we will be able to return him to his breeder or find a skilled trainer to take him in. We can't understand how he went from a very confident stable dog from 8 weeks to four months, to an out of control nerve bag by 6 months. At his 4 month exam his vet was saying what a great dog he was and said most dogs didn't allow him to check their teeth, ears, etc like that. He even said my husband should come talk to his other clients on how to raise working line puppies. He was well mannered, engaged and fearless. Then it's like a switch flipped. He was suddenly nervous of sounds, lunging at people, and showing new bad behaviors. I don't understand what went wrong.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There is one way to get the breeder to take back the dog. Tell him he leaves you no alternatives but to go to social media with the story. If he’s that well known, he won’t want to deal with the fall out. It’s not something I would do but it may work. It sounds like the puppy is the wrong match for your home and should have been placed with a different type of owner. Your husband could have done almost everything right but when you throw children into the mix, there is always noise and activity and some dogs aren’t good with that. The fact that your Aussie also bit someone tells me something was lacking in his exposure to strangers as well. Assuies aren’t known for attacking strangers. One attack by an off leash dog would not have done that if he had been desensitized after. Dogs need exposure to learn to love with them. If your Aussie had become aggressive why did he have access to the FedEx man? My dogs have never been loose with a delivery person on the property.

One reason those of us who are experienced with the breed also use outside trainers is because training a WL dog for the first time or even subsequent dogs can be challenging. We may do things that should be corrected but we only know if someone else sees and points them out. If the breeder is a trainer, why didn’t you go to him for training? You said your husband planned to do scentwork but it didn’t happen. That also suggests the dog isn’t a first priority in your home or schedule. That is often how bad behaviors start and are missed, there were signs before but you didn’t recognize them. He wasn’t confident and stable, he just appeared to be so. Healthy dogs don‘t just bite someone out of the blue they give signals before that. You had the puppy for a few months when you knew he didn’t like children. Why didn’t you step up and get help right away? I’m guessing your dog doesn’t get much planned exercise. They need daily exercise and work, even as young as 5-6 months. Keep in mind, he’s not the cute young puppy anymore. He is what he has become.


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## ldmpku (Jul 5, 2021)

Concerned Owner said:


> I have only seen the puppy with hair raised twice. Both times were during rough play between the dogs. He did not growl or raise hair during this attack. He jumped off the bed, ran out of the room and when he encountered the costumed child just outside the room, he knocked him to the ground and began biting repeatedly and pulling back trying to rip the costume off. All bites were focused on the hoodie with no bites to exposed legs, face or hands. Our sweet kid was screaming and too scared to take the hoodie off as directed, but did manage to unzip the face. After the attack started the other dog joined in. There is a clear bite with four shallow punctures to the arm, a shallow single puncture on his shoulder but the rest are on the back and look like scratches from teeth. All are healing well and none required medical care.
> Previously when the dog lunged at the kids we would say no and put the dog in the crate at the direction of his breeder. After exiting the crate it was like nothing happened. Sometimes he would wag his tail and sit and obviously want supervised pets from the kids. Previous bites were situations where the dog barked at or jumped on the kids and the flinched, moved erratically or screamed and he bit. One time one of the toddlers appeared with a bag of muffins. He took them from her. She grabbed back for her them and he lunged at her face without warning, but I had my hand on his harness and no contact was made. This last attack, he was dragging the kid around biting him over and over while I tried to gain control of the dogs.
> The dog bit me twice during high value resource guarding incidents and growled at my husband when he tried to take a pig ear from him.
> He never drew blood from our other dog or the cats despite rough play.
> The incidents with strangers, he offered no warning just lunged to bite when they got into his space.


I truly feel sorry about what your awful experience. It’s not my intention to convince you not to rehome the dog.
My 12month dog did similar things. She likes nipping one of my pajama which looks like a Halloween costume. She also pulls a little bit. It’s inappropriate play for human but my dog gets away only because I let her slip and it doesn’t bother me. It’s definitely not acceptable for most people but all I’m trying to say it is not necessary aggression.
About resource guarding, my dog will growl at me for extremely valuable food like whole chicken, She will definitely bite if it’s somebody else. Our strategy is simply no more extremely high value for now. My concern is your dog has no respect for you and all the kids. And it becomes destructive when your husband is not in presence.
Please take care of yourself and kids.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nothing went wrong. The wrong pup was placed in your care. He needed a much more experienced home.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> There is one way to get the breeder to take back the dog. Tell him he leaves you no alternatives but to go to social media with the story. If he’s that well known, he won’t want to deal with the fall out. It’s not something I would do but it may work. It sounds like the puppy is the wrong match for your home and should have been placed with a different type of owner. Your husband could have done almost everything right but when you throw children into the mix, there is always noise and activity and some dogs aren’t good with that. The fact that your Aussie also bit someone tells me something was lacking in his exposure to strangers as well. Assuies aren’t known for attacking strangers. One attack by an off leash dog would not have done that if he had been desensitized after. Dogs need exposure to learn to love with them. If your Aussie had become aggressive why did he have access to the FedEx man? My dogs have never been loose with a delivery person on the property.
> 
> One reason those of us who are experienced with the breed also use outside trainers is because training a WL dog for the first time or even subsequent dogs can be challenging. We may do things that should be corrected but we only know if someone else sees and points them out. If the breeder is a trainer, why didn’t you go to him for training? You said your husband planned to do scentwork but it didn’t happen. That also suggests the dog isn’t a first priority in your home or schedule. That is often how bad behaviors start and are missed, there were signs before but you didn’t recognize them. He wasn’t confident and stable, he just appeared to be so. Healthy dogs don‘t just bite someone out of the blue they give signals before that. You had the puppy for a few months when you knew he didn’t like children. Why didn’t you step up and get help right away? I’m guessing your dog doesn’t get much planned exercise. They need daily exercise and work, even as young as 5-6 months. Keep in mind, he’s not the cute young puppy anymore. He is what he has become.


The aussie did not have any aggression issues prior to the fed ex bite. He was fearful of strangers and would bark at other dogs to stay away but not aggressive. We absolutely should have taken him to a trainer following the attack by the off leash dog. 

The delivery person entered our gated courtyard unexpectedly delivering a package on a Sunday days earlier than anticipated. The dog went past me as I opened the door and backed out to keep the dogs inside because he saw the man inside our gate. We do not allow the dogs to be off leash outside of our house. 

Our puppy contract includes a non disclosure agreement. 

We did contact the gsd puppy's breeder prior to this attack to let him know the dog was being testy with the kids. We followed the advice he gave. Initially he said to bring the dog to him in 10 days time and he would train him and we would work it out. We planned to do just that, when he let us know days later he would require nearly $4k for this 6 week board and train. We looked at the budget and couldn't afford it so we tried to fix the problem ourselves by taking the breeders suggestions,  increasing the dogs exercise, introducing puzzles for mental stimulation, increasing training, giving him more boundaries, talking to the kids about how they should interact with the dog, continued never leaving them alone with the dog and I watched to identify triggers to try to manage them . Obviously, we failed. He needed the help of a professional before it ever got to this point. My husband felt he needed behavior modification prior to training for scent work. Our priority was working on the dog/kid relationship. We are devastated. We love this dog. He is gorgeous, cuddly, smart and there are many great things about him. None of those things matter if the kid is terrified of him. I had warned my son not to put the hoodie over his face 3x that morning of the attack because the dogs might not understand. He did not listen because he was super excited about the costume. 😰 The time between realizing he was not a good fit for our family and this attack incident was literally just 2-3 weeks. So many regrets.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> Nothing went wrong. The wrong pup was placed in your care. He needed a much more experienced home.


 My husband owned rottweilers, pit bulls, a working line gsd, and a staffordhsire terrier in the past. Dogs love him and respect him. He is passionate about dogs. We thought we could handle this dog. Truthfully my husband could, my kids and I could not. I never had a dog as a child. I had cats. I don't want the dog to have to pay for my inability to be a confident and capable handler. It's so horrible.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry you are going through this. And you are right, your son putting the costume over his face is what likely triggered the attack. But as Sabis said, if it was a really aggressive attack, meant to cause harm, your son would have had some serious injuries and needed to go to the E.R. So, I agree with what most people are saying: this dog CAN likely be rehabilitated with the right people in the right environment. But it will take a very knowledgeable person, and some very strict rules to get things on the right track.

I think the other dog just wanted to get in on the action - it was 'monkey see, monkey do'. I think the other dog will be fine if you keep it, and do some training to make sure there are no more incidents.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

As reiterated by a few, I feel this is just a bad fit all around. I don’t think the dog just flipped, also dogs go through fear periods which one day they are afraid of something that was normal; and you never force anything in those times.Crate time outs won’t work for a dog with those instincts IMO, my dog would try and get away with much more if their wasn’t a mutual respect and understanding that her undesired behaviours will have consequences she doesn’t like, I treat her every time I say “kennel” and she runs to it, how can I expect that to correct misplaced bites and lunges? Good on you for identifying this won’t work, unfortunately I can’t help with next steps.. best wishes for both parties.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Sunsilver said:


> Sorry you are going through this. And you are right, your son putting the costume over his face is what likely triggered the attack. But as Sabis said, if it was a really aggressive attack, meant to cause harm, your son would have had some serious injuries and needed to go to the E.R. So, I agree with what most people are saying: this dog CAN likely be rehabilitated with the right people in the right environment. But it will take a very knowledgeable person, and some very strict rules to get things on the right track.
> 
> I think the other dog just wanted to get in on the action - it was 'monkey see, monkey do'. I think the other dog will be fine if you keep it, and do some training to make sure there are no more incidents.


We have signed up for professional behavior modification with a very qualified trainer for the aussie to begin promptly after the quarantine hold is over.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Some honest answers. The breeder sounds sleezy. I know that there is always more than one side to a story, but that isn’t the type of person you should be doing business with. The fact that you had a jet incident with the Aussie tells me that you aren’t a good fit for a working line shepherd. You don’t have the tools in your toolbox to handle them. For you to be successful, you’d need guidance to navigate the issues in front of you. Everything you’ve said leads back to those 2 things. Put the dog in a crate inside of the house. Do not allow him out unless you are closely supervising him. If he is out he should have a leash on him attached to someone else. This is how this dog should be handled until you another home.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

An NDA from a breeder is a huge red flag. They aren’t typically used for that purpose. I hope you realize my post wasn’t a criticism but my observations. Children like to have fun. I get that. Mine might have done the same thing at that age even after being told not to. If nothing else, maybe your son will listen to you more now. That was a frightening consequence for ignoring a request. Overall, though, the dog isn’t a match for your family.

We got our first GSD when my children were a little younger than yours. The breeder met them, made me bring them to a working line K9 dog show to observe then around some of her dogs who were performing and doing demonstrations. When we visited her kennel to pick up a male puppy we picked out from one line, she decided to keep him herself and switched us to a female from a different line. The male was from K9 lines and too much for a young family. The female was from a very well known herding line with excellent temperaments and had already been exposed to many people including children and to dogs. She wasn’t quite what we thought we wanted. The breeder knew best. Ours was the perfect pet for a young family. She went everywhere with us. To baseball and soccer games. To every store that allowed her in. To their school. We had children in and out of our house all the time and her behavior was always perfect once we got past the early mouthy stage. She was a WGSL. We also got her at 12 weeks and she had a little training by then. I was always relieved we did not get the harder male. We could not have handled him. I now have a WL. There is always time later for a more challenging dog.

You can train a dog not to run out an open door.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Yeah. We waited until we bought our first house and the bigger kids (10 and 8) had adjusted to being with a high drive dog (the aussie). We took them to see a working dog in action and my husband showed the big kids tons of videos of working dogs doing all kinds of sport and training. We both talked to them daily about dog safety with both stranger dogs and our dogs daily. We specifically asked the breeder for a puppy that would be most suitable for a house with young kids. We thought it was going to work out. It didn't.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It’s ok. It happens. Then you have to make the best decisions you can to fix the problem. Your breeder seemed like a good one but he wasn’t.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> It’s ok. It happens. Then you have to make the best decisions you can to fix the problem. Your breeder seemed like a good one but he wasn’t.


Lots of those unfortunately


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

I’m just responding to say I think you’ve made the right decision to put your family’s safety first and not bring this dog home. 

There is an organization of trainers called Family Paws that offers education and support for dog-baby/toddler/child dynamics. Unfortunately, I think a lot of their services are paid, but I think they have a hotline if you feel you need professional support since this has been very traumatic for your family. They do have some free resources that may be helpful if in the future you decide to bring another dog into your family. Home - Family Paws Parent Education


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Thanks! A trainer just left our house. He met the big kids and talked with him. We will be employing his services immediately to help us with our aussie and the kids. He is attending a dog behavior convention this weekend and will be showing the gsd puppy's photos and info in hopes of finding a qualified home for him. Really hoping we can find a good fit in time.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

It sounds like the GSD was rough housing with the kid, and that was something he had a history of doing and getting away with. Framing the situation as a dog attack is a bit much…that’s my opinion based on the description and lack of serious injury. It does sound like an out of control situation none the less. Hopefully you can find a home soon for the dog, and it’s great you’re making an effort. Nearby GSD rescues may be an option worth exploring.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Not a dog I would want in my house kids or no kids. I’m not getting a rough housing feel at all especially with the other dog joining in. NDA for a breeder does sounds corrupt, plus refusal to taking the puppy back after all that has happened - sounds like he has been down this road before and quite often.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

NDA sounds very convenient AND contradictory. I mean, that would exclude happy new owners from being able to recommend the breeder and give good feedback as well yes? Have you seen positive reviews posted that guided you in making your purchase? Are you comfortable providing a general location of where you acquired your dog? 

I also had rottweilers and mastiff breeds for years before bringing home my East German shepherd. And he sent me shopping for a professional trainer when adolescence hit. But we are empty nesters and biting was not part of the equation. It's heartbreaking for your pup but the right decision for your children.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Hellish said:


> NDA sounds very convenient AND contradictory. I mean, that would exclude happy new owners from being able to recommend the breeder and give good feedback as well yes? Have you seen positive reviews posted that guided you in making your purchase? Are you comfortable providing a general location of where you acquired your dog?
> 
> I also had rottweilers and mastiff breeds for years before bringing home my East German shepherd. And he sent me shopping for a professional trainer when adolescence hit. But we are empty nesters and biting was not part of the equation. It's heartbreaking for your pup but the right decision for your children.


 We live on the Florida gulf coast in the Tampa Bay area. Right as all this was going down between month 6 and 7 we were preparing for the hurricane (sandbagging, helping elderly neighbors fill and place sandbags, packing and preparing our property and garden) because we were in zone b just under half a mile from a mandatory evac zone . It was supposed to come right over us. The track shifted south, and we were spared. Now, the rescues in central and south Florida are all dealing with storm aftermath which makes it harder for us to find our dog the appropriate place. 
The dog is from another southern state. We followed this trainer/breeder for a couple years before buying one of his dogs. We saw lots of reviews from happy training clients. I read reviews from happy puppy purchasers as well. I could not find a single negative comment online at all, probably due to the nda. Even a fabulous breeder would have some unhappy clients, right?
We had a trainer come by the house tonight that specializes in dogs that bark and bite. He met the big kids and talked with them about what happened. He feels like he could "fix" both dogs. We are still unsure about the gsd. He does want to introduce my son to one of his german shepherds so that my son isn't terrified of the breed for life regardless of what happens with our puppy. I think that is a great idea.


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

I think it’s a great idea to focus on your son - it is legit traumatic to be bitten by a dog, let alone your family dog, let alone BOTH your family dogs.

From what i have read so far, I do not think you are equipped to rehabilitate the GSD. The Aussie, yes. But the GSD should go to a home without children. Good luck to you. I’m very sorry that this happened.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I could be wrong but I believe Ivan Balabanov a world renowned trainer is in the Tampa Bay area. He certainly wouldn't be cheap and I agree you and your family are likely beyond trying to keep the pup. However he would be a great person to evaluate the pup and maybe help you find an appropriate home or give you resources. It might be worth looking into. Google him and you will find his contact info if you are interested.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Before we crucify the breeder, can I ask a few questions of the knowledgeable working line people? 1. Can a working line pup of good character attack a juvenile family member in a costume as described, given the level of training and leadership is questionable? In other words, if this pup was raised in an experienced working home with children, would this incident be highly unlikely. 

I know this sounds like blaming the victim. But, we have a family with two young dogs, one being Australian shepherd. In two short years we have bite to a delivery man by a breed that isn't bred for protection. Just a bandaid -- lots of excuses and minimizing going on by the owner for this dog. The dog that was "bullied" to the point of joining in on the attack on the child. We have a 125 pound woman who has no confidence that she can control her dogs. And training by the husband in the home that leaves a puppy kicked out of TSC for lunging at an employee, unprovoked, muzzled at the vet, nipping the children, and an attack with another dog on a juvenile family member. 

I don't know, it sounds like the family is way over their head with their dogs, and depending on what they told the breeder in the first place about their experience and what they want to do with the dog, that may or may not be the breeder's fault.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

selzer said:


> Before we crucify the breeder, can I ask a few questions of the knowledgeable working line people? 1. Can a working line pup of good character attack a juvenile family member in a costume as described, given the level of training and leadership is questionable? In other words, if this pup was raised in an experienced working home with children, would this incident be highly unlikely.
> 
> I know this sounds like blaming the victim. But, we have a family with two young dogs, one being Australian shepherd. In two short years we have bite to a delivery man by a breed that isn't bred for protection. Just a bandaid -- lots of excuses and minimizing going on by the owner for this dog. The dog that was "bullied" to the point of joining in on the attack on the child. We have a 125 pound woman who has no confidence that she can control her dogs. And training by the husband in the home that leaves a puppy kicked out of TSC for lunging at an employee, unprovoked, muzzled at the vet, nipping the children, and an attack with another dog on a juvenile family member.
> 
> I don't know, it sounds like the family is way over their head with their dogs, and depending on what they told the breeder in the first place about their experience and what they want to do with the dog, that may or may not be the breeder's fault.


Honestly that's what I was thinking. Once they brought up that they have no control over their older dog and it has bitten people... It's not really a surprise that the GSD exhibits the same behavior right? The fact that the GSD was tormenting their children and they let the situation escalate counts for something doesn't it? I'm a bit surprised that people are jumping on this breeder when the parents have two dogs that bite. And the OP's solution to the biting was saying no and putting it in the crate. Those poor kids...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

selzer said:


> In other words, if this pup was raised in an experienced working home with children, would this incident be highly unlikely.


Yes, no, maybe. It could happen with a dog from any line or breed really. We’ve seen gruesome things happen with experienced owners. I lean towards highly unlikely however. At the least I’d expect someon more experienced to understand the behaviors the dog is displaying and take steps to manage it. Most working like people I know either lay down the law very quickly without question when it comes to dogs around their kids or kick them out of the house when the signs point towards them being untrustworthy.


selzer said:


> know this sounds like blaming the victim. But, we have a family with two young dogs, one being Australian shepherd. In two short years we have bite to a delivery man by a breed that isn't bred for protection. Just a bandaid -- lots of excuses and minimizing going on by the owner for this dog. The dog that was "bullied" to the point of joining in on the attack on the child. We have a 125 pound woman who has no confidence that she can control her dogs. And training by the husband in the home that leaves a puppy kicked out of TSC for lunging at an employee, unprovoked, muzzled at the vet, nipping the children, and an attack with another dog on a juvenile family member.
> 
> I don't know, it sounds like the family is way over their head with their dogs, and depending on what they told the breeder in the first place about their experience and what they want to do with the dog, that may or may not be the breeder's fault.





Hopps said:


> Honestly that's what I was thinking. Once they brought up that they have no control over their older dog and it has bitten people... It's not really a surprise that the GSD exhibits the same behavior right? The fact that the GSD was tormenting their children and they let the situation escalate counts for something doesn't it? I'm a bit surprised that people are jumping on this breeder when the parents have two dogs that bite. And the OP's solution to the biting was saying no and putting it in the crate. Those poor kids...


Let’s be clear. They are in over their heads and the lack of knowledge put them in this situation. The problem with only watching videos of working dogs in action is you also miss the reality of said dogs. You can watch plenty of videos of police dogs working but you don’t see the videos of them struggling to take the dog out without getting bite. That being said, the breeder is a sleezeball. He sold a puppy with one testicle and didn’t disclose it. He had an NDA signed to buy a puppy. He offered help in the form of a board and train in light of the fact that a dog he bred and sold was biting kids. He didn’t even offer to take the dog back, let alone a refund. The owners have their faults ,but sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. The breeder is shady at the least. Those 2 things aren’t mutually exclusive. It isn’t either or,


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

Concerned Owner said:


> We live on the Florida gulf coast in the Tampa Bay area. Right as all this was going down between month 6 and 7 we were preparing for the hurricane (sandbagging, helping elderly neighbors fill and place sandbags, packing and preparing our property and garden) because we were in zone b just under half a mile from a mandatory evac zone . It was supposed to come right over us. The track shifted south, and we were spared. Now, the rescues in central and south Florida are all dealing with storm aftermath which makes it harder for us to find our dog the appropriate place.


They’re usually overwhelmed but try reaching out to Leica’s Saving Paws. They are a Georgia rescue but sometimes do transports to/from Florida. There is a contact form at the bottom of the page. You could also try messaging them through Facebook. Adopt A Rescue Dog | Leica's "saving Paws" Rescue


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> Yes, no, maybe. It could happen with a dog from any line or breed really. We’ve seen gruesome things happen with experienced owners. I lean towards highly unlikely however. At the least I’d expect someon more experienced to understand the behaviors the dog is displaying and take steps to manage it. Most working like people I know either lay down the law very quickly without question when it comes to dogs around their kids or kick them out of the house when the signs point towards them being untrustworthy.
> 
> 
> Let’s be clear. They are in over their heads and the lack of knowledge put them in this situation. The problem with only watching videos of working dogs in action is you also miss the reality of said dogs. You can watch plenty of videos of police dogs working but you don’t see the videos of them struggling to take the dog out without getting bite. That being said, the breeder is a sleezeball. He sold a puppy with one testicle and didn’t disclose it. He had an NDA signed to buy a puppy. He offered help in the form of a board and train in light of the fact that a dog he bred and sold was biting kids. He didn’t even offer to take the dog back, let alone a refund. The owners have their faults ,but sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. The breeder is shady at the least. Those 2 things aren’t mutually exclusive. It isn’t either or,


The breeder is obviously sleazy and seriously lacks empathy. As OP put it “your emergency isn’t my emergency”. But my point is the lack of training and intervention is quite ridiculous. The fact that the kids were harassed since the pup was 16 weeks up until now? And they literally didn’t do anything about it. And we’ve seen a lot of examples where younger dogs are biting their owners etc due to lack of training. For some reason in this thread people are barely addressing it. It’s not just “you don’t know what you don’t know” at this point right? If they rehome the GSD and get another dog later, the same problem will resurface?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This thread is exactly why non working homes shouldn't look for a dog with a K9 type pedigree. People think it's cool to have a dog from "police K9" breeders, until they have one. 

This sounds like a pup with some drive and no leadership. Dogs that are bred to fight grown men on meth take leadership and solid foundation training. They also go through some crazy hormonal changes until they mature. Without training, they do most things with their mouth and at maximum velocity.

I'm appalled that the breeder won't help without $4000 after a kid got bit. No, I don't think this was an attack, but this lack of control needs to be addressed with the dog and the family. I understand that this is a bad fit for the family, but they kind of got what they asked for. You can't buy an F450 and then complain about fuel mileage and it being hard to park. You can watch all the working dog videos you want but they don't give you any idea of what it takes to get to that point or what it is like to live with that dog.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

I agree with David. We have only had a couple of litters but out of the 8 males we sent 4 to police work, 2 are in sch homes, 1 with experienced retired shepherd breeder, 1 in experienced pet home. The girls were much more appropriate for active pet homes and have been much more straight forward. I have seen very experienced handlers get in over their head and have to re-home. Personally I think breeders need to be very careful what and where they are placing. Unfortunately as a veterinarian I see the end result.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This thread is a good reminder that even though many (most?) of the active posters here have WL dogs, we should be cautious about telling anyone who shows up searching for a puppy, to get a WL over something else. We tend to do that. If someone asks, we should find out exactly what they are dealing with and not assume everyone who thinks they want one can handle the dog. I agree with Selzer somewhat in that if the breeder was told the family has training and handling experience, he may have misread the situation. But somehow it seems more likely that this breeder who breeds dogs for working homes has puppies in every litter that can’t be placed in experienced homes and sells them for pets. It is the breeder’s responsibility to make sure the homes they sell to are a match for the buyers. Dogs that are bred for work need to work. Dogs that are not as challenging can find their own “work” in a houseful of children like my first dog did. I could not have had the dog I have now as a first German Shepherd. I wouldn’t have had the time or the experience or a quiet household. My house was noisy and active for years. The dogs we had fit our lifestyle not the other way around.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I know exactly (99.999% sure) where this pup came from and who the breeder is....I know another of buyer with similar concerns with a younger puppy. And this person has had GSDs for many years, trained and titled in the sport for many years.

All breeders with any experience know what the catch words and phrases are to promote puppy sales....reputable is a very very very vague judgement call and very much marketing.

This breeder breeds for "hard" "powerful" "strong" dogs. PERIOD. Either rehome or sell this puppy because these genetics are NOT meant for an enviornment like yours.

PERIOD.

Lee


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> I know exactly where this pup came from and who the breeder is....I know another of buyer with similar concerns with a younger puppy. And this person has had GSDs for many years, trained and titled in the sport for many years.
> 
> All breeders with any experience know what the catch words and phrases are to promote puppy sales....reputable is a very very very vague judgement call and very much marketing.
> 
> ...


This is by far the most informative and powerful response on the thread so far. 

The key here is if the breeder won't take back the dog I fear that the OP doesn't have the knowledge/resources to evaluate any potential new owner for this dog that will be a good fit. 
I suggest again to reach out to Dog Training of Tampa Bay to have the dog properly evaluated and maybe they can help with or at least give guidance on placement into the right home. Otherwise, I fear history will repeat itself with the young dog and end badly for all involved.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Springbrz said:


> This is by far the most informative and powerful response on the thread so far.
> 
> The key here is if the breeder won't take back the dog I fear that the OP doesn't have the knowledge/resources to evaluate any potential new owner for this dog that will be a good fit.
> I suggest again to reach out to Dog Training of Tampa Bay to have the dog properly evaluated and maybe they can help with or at least give guidance on placement into the right home. Otherwise, I fear history will repeat itself with the young dog and end badly for all involved.


I will have my husband reach out to them. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

When @David Winners was kind enough to give me a call early into me getting Ellie, he told me he didn’t think I should have a working line dog. He wasn’t wrong, as much as I read on here spoke to people asked questions... nothing compares to the real thing. They can be very challenging, not every working dog is going to want to eat you, your spouse, your other dogs, the hamster.. they challenge you in different ways.. ie if I don’t make Ellie sit and wait at back door before we go out, she hops like a bunny _into_ the door. I don’t think they can only go to _working_ homes, but you better be prepared to put the work in for them. They won’t just settle into your home like many other breeds. ( before I got Ellie I would of read this post and been like ya ya i got this, no.. no you don’t ).


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

wolfstraum said:


> I know exactly (99.999% sure) where this pup came from and who the breeder is....I know another of buyer with similar concerns with a younger puppy. And this person has had GSDs for many years, trained and titled in the sport for many years.
> 
> All breeders with any experience know what the catch words and phrases are to promote puppy sales....reputable is a very very very vague judgement call and very much marketing.
> 
> ...


I can't name the breeder because of the nda. Was the person you know with problems with the younger puppy having trouble with an unstable dog, undescended testicle or both? Thanks for this info. Again, my husband is an experienced dog owner and this breeder told us this dog would be a great fit for a family with 4 young kids. He also told my husband that we could make a lot of money studding this dog out, though that was never the reason for the purchase of this dog. We intended to have him trained for protection and be a family pet. Once we let him know the dog was having behavior issues on top of the retained testicle his only solution was $4k board and train when he had space. He told us to crate the puppy if it lunged, correct the puppy whenever he seemed to fixate on the kids before he ran up on them, and to stop all tug games. We did all of that. He said the dog could not do protection work. I don't feel like we got what we paid for. My main concern is the safety and well being of my kids. They are scared of this dog, so it can't be here. My second concern is that we find a qualified home for this dog and it isn't euthanized. We have hired a professional trainer for our aussie. 

Here is a story about this gsd puppy. At 6 months of age, I was out walking the dog (to build the relationship so the dog would behave for me when my husband was not around) when we came across a landscaper with a blower backpack on across two lanes of traffic and a median. He had only his eyes exposed (hat, face covered long sleeves, pants, etc). The gsd puppy first quietly observed for 30 seconds and then suddenly freaked out and started running from side to side and trying to hide in the woods. He always walked with a loose leash for me, but this time he dragged me home and then was desperate to get back in our gate once home. At the point my husband said this is absolutely not going to be a dog that can do protection work for us.


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## ctu24 (Oct 1, 2006)

Concerned Owner said:


> I can't name the breeder because of the nda. Was the person you know with problems with the younger puppy having trouble with an unstable dog, undescended testicle or both? Thanks for this info. Again, my husband is an experienced dog owner and this breeder told us this dog would be a great fit for a family with 4 young kids. He also told my husband that we could make a lot of money studding this dog out, though that was never the reason for the purchase of this dog. We intended to have him trained for protection and be a family pet. Once we let him know the dog was having behavior issues on top of the retained testicle his only solution was $4k board and train when he had space. He told us to crate the puppy if it lunged, correct the puppy whenever he seemed to fixate on the kids before he ran up on them, and to stop all tug games. We did all of that. He said the dog could not do protection work. I don't feel like we got what we paid for. My main concern is the safety and well being of my kids. They are scared of this dog, so it can't be here. My second concern is that we find a qualified home for this dog and it isn't euthanized. We have hired a professional trainer for our aussie.
> 
> Here is a story about this gsd puppy. At 6 months of age, I was out walking the dog (to build the relationship so the dog would behave for me when my husband was not around) when we came across a landscaper with a blower backpack on across two lanes of traffic and a median. He had only his eyes exposed (hat, face covered long sleeves, pants, etc). The gsd puppy first quietly observed for 30 seconds and then suddenly freaked out and started running from side to side and trying to hide in the woods. He always walked with a loose leash for me, but this time he dragged me home and then was desperate to get back in our gate once home. At the point my husband said this is absolutely not going to be a dog that can do protection work for us.


Please consider reaching out to Leica’s Saving Paws as I mentioned above. I know they are always overloaded as all rescues are but they are very experienced with hard GSDs. Even though they’re Georgia-based they often do out of state transports. Canine Pet Rescue (CPR) is another experienced GSD rescue you might consider contacting.

IMO that’s not an abnormal response from a puppy, especially if it’s never been exposed to leaf blowers before but I’m no expert. Regardless, whoever ends up with it will have some fear issues to work through.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Will do! We will call them. Thanks for the suggestions. We are willing to transport the dog to Georgia if need be. We love this dog and want what is best for him. It really sucks it didn't work out and I hope we can find him the right spot.











ctu24 said:


> Please consider reaching out to Leica’s Saving Paws as I mentioned above. I know they are always overloaded as all rescues are but they are very experienced with hard GSDs. Even though they’re Georgia-based they often do out of state transports. Canine Pet Rescue (CPR) is another experienced GSD rescue you might consider contacting.





ctu24 said:


> Please consider reaching out to Leica’s Saving Paws as I mentioned above. I know they are always overloaded as all rescues are but they are very experienced with hard GSDs. Even though they’re Georgia-based they often do out of state transports. Canine Pet Rescue (CPR) is another experienced GSD rescue you might consider contacting.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Concerned Owner said:


> I can't name the breeder because of the nda. Was the person you know with problems with the younger puppy having trouble with an unstable dog, undescended testicle or both? Thanks for this info. Again, my husband is an experienced dog owner and this breeder told us this dog would be a great fit for a family with 4 young kids. He also told my husband that we could make a lot of money studding this dog out, though that was never the reason for the purchase of this dog. We intended to have him trained for protection and be a family pet. Once we let him know the dog was having behavior issues on top of the retained testicle his only solution was $4k board and train when he had space. He told us to crate the puppy if it lunged, correct the puppy whenever he seemed to fixate on the kids before he ran up on them, and to stop all tug games. We did all of that. He said the dog could not do protection work. I don't feel like we got what we paid for. My main concern is the safety and well being of my kids. They are scared of this dog, so it can't be here. My second concern is that we find a qualified home for this dog and it isn't euthanized. We have hired a professional trainer for our aussie.
> 
> Here is a story about this gsd puppy. At 6 months of age, I was out walking the dog (to build the relationship so the dog would behave for me when my husband was not around) when we came across a landscaper with a blower backpack on across two lanes of traffic and a median. He had only his eyes exposed (hat, face covered long sleeves, pants, etc). The gsd puppy first quietly observed for 30 seconds and then suddenly freaked out and started running from side to side and trying to hide in the woods. He always walked with a loose leash for me, but this time he dragged me home and then was desperate to get back in our gate once home. At the point my husband said this is absolutely not going to be a dog that can do protection work for us.



I understand about the NDA - but seriously - it was not hard to figure out......and the last pup I heard of was not even a male - and it was a direct pick up and the environment and husbandry of pups - size, health, condition etc - was deplorable as well

Lee


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Our puppy had cocidia when my husband picked him up. We got him immediately to the vet and medicated him to resolution and monitored with stool testing. The breeder said that was normal. He seemed otherwise healthy minus the undescended testicle which he assured us would drop in time. At his 6 month visit he weighed 73lbs and he is not a fat puppy at all. I can feel the retained ball in his groin. We transitioned him off the breeders kibble and fed him fresh pet. We stopped giving him any high value treat like pig ears, beef trachea, etc when he began resource guarding. My husband is at animal services now checking on the dogs again. Staff says the gsd is scared and not eating much. We will call CPR, Leica’s and Ivan's place when he gets home.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer but I don't think I'm wrong on this: 

@Concerned Owner you don't have to name the breeder. I would say you are within your rights to post his pedigree as I'm assuming he is papered with AKC. AKC pedigree database is public. No nda is going to cover a public database. If you weren't having these issues and did hypothetically want to breed potential dame owners would want to look at the pedigree to see if a male is a match for their dame. So your breeder wouldn't be able to prevent you from disclosing you pups pedigree to anyone you wish.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

wolfstraum said:


> I understand about the NDA - but seriously - it was not hard to figure out......and the last pup I heard of was not even a male - and it was a direct pick up and the environment and husbandry of pups - size, health, condition etc - was deplorable as well
> 
> Lee


I asked my husband, he said the facilities looked good at pick up. New astroturf, new fences, pups were outdoors in a pen and all pups looked good and healthy.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Having coccidia from a byb might be normal but not a good breeder. Down playing the retained testicle is another issue as well. Honestly the breeder should have paid for the coccidia treatment if you met the initial vet visit timeline. He sold you a sick dog. All moot at this point.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

My husband called the breeder back this evening. He said he will now have space for the dog on the 22nd. Our trainer's facility can board him for the gap. My husband will drive him back up there . I am still hopeful for a better option. We did not ask, but we won't get any money back from the breeder which I think is bs. My husband and I will miss the puppy and all that we hoped and dreamed he would be . Super bummed about it all, but at least the dog will make it out of animal services. Still making calls to see if we can find a better option. Wish I knew how to upload a video to show you how sharp the little guy was even at 12 weeks.


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## ldmpku (Jul 5, 2021)

Concerned Owner said:


> My husband called the breeder back this evening. He said he will now have space for the dog on the 22nd. Our trainer's facility can board him for the gap. My husband will drive him back up there . I am still hopeful for a better option. We did not ask, but we won't get any money back from the breeder which I think is bs. My husband and I will miss the puppy and all that we hoped and dreamed he would be . Super bummed about it all, but at least the dog will make it out of animal services. Still making calls to see if we can find a better option. Wish I knew how to upload a video to show you how sharp the little guy was even at 12 weeks.


Upload the video to YouTube or something then share the link here.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Concerned Owner said:


> My husband called the breeder back this evening. He said he will now have space for the dog on the 22nd. Our trainer's facility can board him for the gap. My husband will drive him back up there . I am still hopeful for a better option. We did not ask, but we won't get any money back from the breeder which I think is bs. My husband and I will miss the puppy and all that we hoped and dreamed he would be . Super bummed about it all, but at least the dog will make it out of animal services. Still making calls to see if we can find a better option. Wish I knew how to upload a video to show you how sharp the little guy was even at 12 weeks.


Why is it BS that you won't get your money back? I don't know any breeder that would do this after 5 months. It probably said in your contract that you won't get your money back if you decide to return the dog right? Like another commenter said, it was a bad match but you also did ask for this dog. I don't think a breeder should have to pay for your mistake. 

Just give it back to the breeder and let him rehome it. I don't see any benefit for your dog or your kids doing otherwise. After the dog is gone hopefully your family takes the time and invest in therapy for the kid. If you want money then sell the dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hopps said:


> Why is it BS that you won't get your money back? I don't know any breeder that would do this after 5 months. It probably said in your contract that you won't get your money back if you decide to return the dog right? Like another commenter said, it was a bad match but you also did ask for this dog. I don't think a breeder should have to pay for your mistake.


It is ridiculous. You said that you don’t know any breeder that would give money back for a dog being returned. What breeders do you know? Any breeder that sells you a dog and then takes it back without refunding what you paid or paying market price isn’t doing square business.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

ldmpku said:


> Upload the video to YouTube or something then share the link here.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Concerned Owner said:


> My husband called the breeder back this evening. He said he will now have space for the dog on the 22nd. Our trainer's facility can board him for the gap. My husband will drive him back up there . I am still hopeful for a better option. We did not ask, but we won't get any money back from the breeder which I think is bs. My husband and I will miss the puppy and all that we hoped and dreamed he would be . Super bummed about it all, but at least the dog will make it out of animal services. Still making calls to see if we can find a better option. Wish I knew how to upload a video to show you how sharp the little guy was even at 12 weeks.


Actually - it is petty much standard practice in this breed that when a pup is returned because the buyer cannot handle the pup, has changed his mind, has had issues that he did not expect, etc. the purchase price is not refunded......I know breeders who have returned money - personally, it was in my contract, and i did make an exception to this a time or two....but most people do not expect a refund when they returned a dog or puppy....I am glad he will be returned and that he will have a chance to go on to a career elsewhere.....if he came from where I suspect, it is just that this was not a dog bred to be an all around working and family dog.

Lee


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

wolfstraum said:


> Actually - it is petty much standard practice in this breed that when a pup is returned because the buyer cannot handle the pup, has changed his mind, has had issues that he did not expect, etc. the purchase price is not refunded......I know breeders who have returned money - personally, it was in my contract, and i did make an exception to this a time or two....but most people do not expect a refund when they returned a dog or puppy....I am glad he will be returned and that he will have a chance to go on to a career elsewhere.....if he came from where I suspect, it is just that this was not a dog bred to be an all around working and family dog.
> 
> Lee


If it just wasn't a good fit, I would never expect money back. He said we were buying a dog that would be great with our young kids, that would be a fabulous protection animal given proper training and that we could stud in the future if we so choose to do. What we got was a really gorgeous, smart dog with one ball that attacks kids he was raised with and doesn't have the nerves for protection work (I don't think, but I am not the person at all that would know) and **** of a lot of stress. The money is not what we need. The kids to be safe and comfortable in their home and the dog to be alive and in the best situation possible for him is what we need, so it's whatever.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> It is ridiculous. You said that you don’t know any breeder that would give money back for a dog being returned. What breeders do you know? Any breeder that sells you a dog and then takes it back without refunding what you paid or paying market price isn’t doing square business.


Ive looked at a lot of contracts and they said they take the dog back no questions asked. Unless these contracts change as people buy them. None that I have said they would ever issue a refund. I saw exceptions if someone returned a puppy after a few days or weeks but that was up to the breeder's discretion, not something written in a contract. Another clause I've seen is replacing a dog for having HD but again no refunds. A clause I saw that is similar to a "refund" is they want an opportunity to buy the dog.

But of course, everyone does business differently and I obviously do not know every single breeder's practice in the world. If you know breeders that refund anywhere between 0days - 12 years after buying the dog great! It doesn't change the fact that there are breeders that I talked to/read their contracts do not follow that practice.

Whether or not we think it's scummy, it's the buyer's responsibility to read the contract at the end of the day. I also followed up my statement of "I don't know any breeder that does this" WITH "it was probably in your contract" since the OP said they're not getting the money back. Are we empathetic to that issue? Sure. An expensive lesson. But I wouldn't fault a breeder if they wrote it in their contract, showed it to the buyer and the buyer signed off on it. Breeders are not giant corporations like Amazon that offer 365 day return policies, it should absolutely not be expected of them to do that at all.

Edit: At the end of the day I obviously don't know as much as others. I refer you to Wolfstraum's comment above because she knows more breeders than I do.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

From what I read is that there have been two sides involved. Breeder failed at making a good match and the new owner not knowing where he got himself into,based on his experience. I wonder why they can't meet half way,
I am glad the dog is going back and hope, hope that the breeder will make sure to find a safe home where he can thrive.
Time to shake it all off and move on. We all have learned hard lessons this way, I have. This was a steep learning curve.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Concerned Owner said:


> If it just wasn't a good fit, I would never expect money back. He said we were buying a dog that would be great with our young kids, that would be a fabulous protection animal given proper training and that we could stud in the future if we so choose to do. What we got was a really gorgeous, smart dog with one ball that attacks kids he was raised with and doesn't have the nerves for protection work (I don't think, but I am not the person at all that would know) and **** of a lot of stress. The money is not what we need. The kids to be safe and comfortable in their home and the dog to be alive and in the best situation possible for him is what we need, so it's whatever.


Your expectations for the dog were arguably unrealistic. With part time, DIY training in a busy household, it would be nearly impossible for any dog to come out as a legit personal protection dog. Developing PPDs usually involves a team of full time, experienced trainers who have acess to facilities dedicated to housing and training the dogs. There is a reason real personal protection dogs sell for the prices they do.

With the health issue, I would ask for a refund and hope to get half back. That seems reasonable.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If the breeder is going to put time into retraining the dog and give him away, I wouldn’t expect anything in return. He’s getting back a dog with behavior problems, that might not have happened if he kept the dog. But if the issues aren’t that difficult and can be fixed easily and then he turns around and sells the dog for more, it seems that some kind of partial refund would be in order since he made a mistake selling the dog to that family. 

If the OP’s husband had the time to work with the dog in a less busy setting, I think he would have been successful. But it looks like they have a big family, and other priorities. Im glad it’s working out.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hopps said:


> Ive looked at a lot of contracts and they said they take the dog back no questions asked. Unless these contracts change as people buy them. None that I have said they would ever issue a refund. I saw exceptions if someone returned a puppy after a few days or weeks but that was up to the breeder's discretion, not something written in a contract. Another clause I've seen is replacing a dog for having HD but again no refunds. A clause I saw that is similar to a "refund" is they want an opportunity to buy the dog.
> 
> But of course, everyone does business differently and I obviously do not know every single breeder's practice in the world. If you know breeders that refund anywhere between 0days - 12 years after buying the dog great! It doesn't change the fact that there are breeders that I talked to/read their contracts do not follow that practice.
> 
> ...


You can make your own choices about who you do business with. Me personally, I wouldn’t be giving a dog that I paid 2500 for back to someone for nothing. It makes 0 sense. To each their own.


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## Atlas Shrugged (5 mo ago)

You need to do a lot of research before buying from a breeder, we used one for 2 of our boys but then unfortauntely the husband died from a sudden heart at 35yrs old, after that the breeder stopped as it was to much for her. The breeder we went to for Atlas was her mentor so we knew he was good and he is a household name in the SA GSD world.

Our boy has an undescended testicle but the breeder told us and stated that if it doesnt drop by the time he is desexed that any additional costs for the removal of it *he will pay for.*
Our breeder who is Vonpeta in south australia, he has been breeding for 50 years, apart from most of his dogs being champions *he offers 24/7 advice* and tells you that when you purchase your pup, *you also get a contract* and he done a wonderful thing for us, here in Australia they have a law that ALL DOGS must be desexed by 6 months - only just come in. So our breeder enclosed a letter and put on his guarantee to us that if our boy is desexed before 18 months that the guarantee is void. This made us so happy as it is obviously so wrong to desex a larger dog at this age.
We have also seen the efforts he takes to socialise the pups. So what Im trying to say is that a reputable breeder should CARE what happens to his pups, this guy doesnt sound like he does.

haha this is my breeder asleep with one of his dogs at the royal show.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Atlas Shrugged said:


> You need to do a lot of research before buying from a breeder, we used one for 2 of our boys but then unfortauntely the husband died from a sudden heart at 35yrs old, after that the breeder stopped as it was to much for her. The breeder we went to for Atlas was her mentor so we knew he was good and he is a household name in the SA GSD world.
> 
> Our boy has an undescended testicle but the breeder told us and stated that if it doesnt drop by the time he is desexed that any additional costs for the removal of it *he will pay for.*
> Our breeder who is Vonpeta in south australia, he has been breeding for 50 years, apart from most of his dogs being champions *he offers 24/7 advice* and tells you that when you purchase your pup, *you also get a contract* and he done a wonderful thing for us, here in Australia they have a law that ALL DOGS must be desexed by 6 months - only just come in. So our breeder enclosed a letter and put on his guarantee to us that if our boy is desexed before 18 months that the guarantee is void. This made us so happy as it is obviously so wrong to desex a larger dog at this age.
> ...


That is so adorable 😍


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Sonny1984 said:


> Your expectations for the dog were arguably unrealistic. With part time, DIY training in a busy household, it would be nearly impossible for any dog to come out as a legit personal protection dog. Developing PPDs usually involves a team of full time, experienced trainers who have acess to facilities dedicated to housing and training the dogs. There is a reason real personal protection dogs sell for the prices they do.
> 
> With the health issue, I would ask for a refund and hope to get half back. That seems reasonable.


Oh we could never protection train any dog ourselves. My husband can train obedience here, but any kind of scent work, protection, etc would need to be done by a pro. We intended to send him for multiple rounds of board and trains and expected a lifetime of training both in and out of the home. Doesn't matter now. I asked him please no more working line dogs here until all the kids are much older and we have more money, time, energy for that kind of dog. We are devastated it turned out this way.


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

Concerned Owner said:


> Oh we could never protection train any dog ourselves. My husband can train obedience here, but any kind of scent work, protection, etc would need to be done by a pro. We intended to send him for multiple rounds of board and trains and expected a lifetime of training both in and out of the home. Doesn't matter now. I asked him please no more working line dogs here until all the kids are much older and we have more money, time, energy for that kind of dog. We are devastated it turned out this way.
> [/QUOTE


I’m sorry it didn’t work out. I’ve had dogs that didn’t work out…it is devasting


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> You can make your own choices about who you do business with. Me personally, I wouldn’t be giving a dog that I paid 2500 for back to someone for nothing. It makes 0 sense. To each their own.


We were talking about the breeder's policy and you felt that breeders that don't do a full refund at any point in time are not conducting business well. It has nothing to do with my choices on who we do business with. That's a completely different topic. If you don't want to give your dog back to a breeder because you won't get a refund, that's on you. Not the breeder. LIke you said, each to their own. But it is not related to a breeder's practice.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Hopps said:


> We were talking about the breeder's policy and you felt that breeders that don't do a full refund at any point in time are not conducting business well. It has nothing to do with my choices on who we do business with. That's a completely different topic. If you don't want to give your dog back to a breeder because you won't get a refund, that's on you. Not the breeder. LIke you said, each to their own. But it is not related to a breeder's practice.


That’s not what I said. You have no idea. A puppy at 8 weeks sales for 2500. At 6 months with no training you are looking at 3500+. At a year you are looking at 5k+. Do you really think it makes sense to hug a puppy for 2500, then give it back for free so it is sold again for 3500? That’s unethical. I don’t care who here tells you different. If I buy a dog for 2500 at 8 weeks and it’s not for me, I give him back for free and the breeder sales him again 6k? You really think that makes sense. I buy a puppy for 2k at 8 weeks. At 3 years old he is too much. You think I give him back to the breeder for free who sales him to police department for 10k? You don’t see the business aspect of this. You are making up things I’ve said. I never said a breeder taking a dog back at 12 years old for free is unethical or a blanket refund is unethical. Like I said, you do business with who you want. You don’t want to listen to what I’m telling you and you don’t have to. Go learn on your own.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sigh, testicles might descend beyond 8 weeks. I have the vet check them, and will disclose if there is one that is undescended. Once I got to 16 weeks and it still hadn't descended so I sold the pup that day on a discount, only to have that testicle descend later. It is a chance we take. 

ANY TIME YOU BUY A PUPPY FOR SHOW, WORK, OR BREEDING, IT MAY WASH. This is a risk you take when you buy a puppy instead of a green adult dog. You buy a dog out of the best pedigrees for your program and get bad hips, or poor nerve, down ears. If you are serious in the fancy, then you rehome or keep the dog as a pet,and move on. Maybe you revisit the pedigrees and try to figure out where it didn't work so you can avoid that combo in the future. But chances are that great pedigree produced other dogs with great nerve, good hips and great ears. The saying is, "puppies are a crap shoot." And it is true. Breeders do not walk around with all the money they have ever taken in from selling puppies in their pocket to return it to folks if anything goes wrong. That's crazy. That will stop the sport of purebred dogs on a dime. Animals are living creatures and breeding is science and art and engineering and a good amount of luck and a ton of work. It isn't rocket science. Rocket science is a lot more precise and has a lot less chance involved. 

A breeder should be willing to take their dog back so it won't land in a shelter. If they demand the first right of refusal (or however that is phrased), then they should expect to pay for the dog back. But if they are willing to take a dog at any point of the dog's life back regardless of the reason, that does not indicate any refund on the breeder's part. Might they sell the dog again? Yeah they may. In the meantime they vet and train and feed the dog, and they find the right home for the dog. Maybe they come out a few bucks ahead, generally they will take a loss on such a pup, but that's ok too. The previous doesn't get anything because the breeder is doing a job with risk involved in taking the pup to keep or rehome. 

Which brings us to health concerns. Coccidia is nothing, it's symptom is diarrhea and is easily managed by getting the pup the proper medication. The last pup I bought had Coccidia, Giardia, worms and some form of bacterial infection that my friend who had him for me (I had a litter of puppies) had to clean up. I paid 3k for him, he definitely had it at the breeders and I didn't even bother to let them know. The dog has great temperament, and all that is cleared up, and he is healthy and beautiful. The cocci is not something that you get a refund for. Some crazy people might return a pup if cocci showed up in the 24-72 hour vet visit. And most breeders would be happy to give a full refund at that point, just to be rid of that crazy potential owner. Usually you get so days to so many weeks where you can return for a full refund. Breeders do have to hold onto the purchase price of a puppy for the said amount of time they give the new owner. And it doesn't hurt the breeder. It isn't that much harder to home a 10 week old puppy as an 8 week old puppy, and the breeder isn't out anything. 

If a breeder knowingly sold a pup with MegaE, the new owner struggles for a while and goes back and forth to the vet and finally goes back to the breeder, that breeder should refund money. The disease is deadly and a lot of work and a lot of heartache. The breeder should have put the dog down, or homed it with full disclosure to someone who knows what they are doing and for no money. A retained testicle is all the way on the side of the world from that. The testes go up and down and for a while, they pass a ring which shrinks or as the testicles grow, one or both can be trapped, undescended. It is possible that the breeder had felt both testicles where they should have been at the time of the sale, and they went up. It could have slipped his mind. The thing is, yeah you shouldn't breed a dog with an undescended testicle. But you can. He can't be shown in conformation. And because you cannot see the tumor on the testicle as it is undescended, if the dog does get testicular cancer there is a higher risk of it being an issue. So most folks will remove an undescended testicle making the cost of neutering more like the cost of a spay. The police dog I have out there, and an undescended testicle. He is 3 years old and they are getting just the undescended one removed. This breed has a LOT of health problems. I read about them on here sometimes and other places. It is just a retained testicle will not prevent the dog from doing protection, from titling in obedience, or any other sport save conformation, it will not stop a dog from being able to work. It is a non-issue. Not a big deal. The most concerning thing is the possibility of testicular torsion. But the fact is, there is bloat, and torsion of the bowel that are just as dangerous but do not have a genetic condition to fall back on. And, you can remove the testicle, you can't remove the stomach or bowel. I think you can tack the stomach in place, but my friend knew an owner who lost a dog to bloat so had the next pup's stomach tacked and the operation went bad, and some of the bowel was cut off and died and the pup didn't make it. It's a risk. 

Unless the contract spells out genetic conditions, you're out of luck with getting anything back from a retained testicle and I think that's fair. If you went into buying a puppy with a set of requirements, then the time to make the breeder's contract suit you is before it is signed by both parties. Testes go up and down, ears go up and down -- yeah I wrote it into my contract for a fellow that I would compensate if the ears did not go up. That was what was important for him. Ok. The retained testicle is a little beyond aesthetic, but not much. It's not like having to feed the dog in a Bailey chair and expecting it to aspirate and get pneumonia and die. It just isn't. 

The guy should take the dog back because it was a bad fit. Now he has to rehabilitate the dog which is on him. He will have to provide for the dog until and if he finds a better situation for him. That is on him too. The previous owner should not be compensated for a dog they are over their head with at 7 months. The previous owner should not be responsible for board and training and vetting of the dog until it gets another home. 

One last thing is the breeder bashing. No, your non-disclosure agreement doesn't allow you to, and this site also doesn't allow it. YELP is a place to go for negative reviews. This site can't send out a delagation to both sides of every dispute to make a judgement about whose perception of events is more near the truth. I am getting the vibe that the OP feels we will be more on her side if she tells us this guy is all gung ho to breed and for his people to breed their dogs. It may be true. But anyone charging a healthy price for puppies, doesn't want someone out there selling his dog's puppies for a fraction of what he is. Those who charge more know that finding homes that are willing and able to pay often takes more doing. And most of them are not encouraging their puppy buyers to stud out their pups. If anything, they don't want to sell on full registration. Even crappy BYBs don't want the competition.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Bearshandler said:


> You can make your own choices about who you do business with. Me personally, I wouldn’t be giving a dog that I paid 2500 for back to someone for nothing. It makes 0 sense. To each their own.


I think the choice here is to euthanize the dog or return to breeder.........either way no money back. No rescue is going to take a dog with a bite history - especially when it was a child that was bitten.....The breeder now has a 7 month old with baggage of biting a child that he has to feed, house, vet and retrain....that he placed with a fanily who PERHAPS over estimated their own ability - I hesitate to comment on the training video -but I see some .......lack of consistency and clarity in methodology.....shall we say? 

In any case - refunds are not NORMALLY done in most cases of returned dogs.....I have seen people return a pup anywhere from 3 days to a week after getting it (1st one was husband bought pup, wife terrified of mouthy pup - received Sat, returned Weds; second one was a week, and buyers thought child was allergic.....ends up coincidence that child had eczema.....owner was a doctor! but not a dermatologist! a third was that the people had an English bull dog [male] and he was licking and climbing on a9 week old female constantly and they refused to crate him or neuter him as it was "not fair" to him".) Different degrees of response by breeders to these- and different expectations from the buyers! A friend also bought a pup from a breeder who was a State Trooper - nasty pup from get go....put tons of time, effort and money in training...I knew people, did not like pedigree on pup and did not think it was a good fit from day one. Lots of red flags, dog had bad elbows too (who has the audacity to breed a female with SV severe elbow dysplasia and then tells buyers his own vet says they are fine??? yes - stupid buyer SHOULD have said NO!!!) Dog has lots of threatening moments and finally just gets the husband who is bringing him fresh water in the kennel ......spent the day in the ER.....dog returned to breeder next day....no contract, no refund, angry at buyer for dumping dog on him wiht bite history ----huge investment in dog - price of pup, commission to gobetween, many hours of private OB at $60 per hour, routine vet work and OFA pre-lims.........owner got nothing back, dog sold for LE K9 to Canada "for $6000".....it is the way it is....owner did not have the contacts or the experience to sell this dog....breeder had to rehab it.

Lee


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Concerned Owner said:


> I asked my husband, he said the facilities looked good at pick up. New astroturf, new fences, pups were outdoors in a pen and all pups looked good and healthy.


I missed this the first time I read it. The breeder didn’t meet your family. When we bought from a breeder and had young children, she insisted on meeting our children, the best friends who were going interact with the dog and our dog sitter. We took a caravan to meet her. Had the breeder met your children, he might have made a different selection or declined to sell you a dog at that time if he didn’t have a puppy that would work well with a young family. You said your children are 8 and 10 but I also saw a 2 year old in your video. That makes a difference.


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## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I purposely brought my daughter for a three hour drive and pulled her out of school for the day.. she was rolling around on the floor with Ellie and Ellie’s sire.. only issue was both dogs cared more about her than me.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I don't understand why a "problem dog" returned to the breeder would be sold for more unless a ton of training was put in by the breeder to "fix" and elevate the dog. I have bought two dogs (each 12 weeks old) that were breeder returns, both were bought far below the original price and both original owners received no refund as far as I know.

I see peole trying to re-home young adult dogs (1-3 years for instance) and want a thousand or two for it and smh. Simply trying to find a great home for it should be priority one, jmo


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## Pemi (3 mo ago)

This is why I don't sell to families with young families particularly those looking for a personal protection dog. I've never heard of it turning out well unless the parents have extensive training and experience. Either the dog will be a liability, or the dog won't be given the proper foundation to be a PPD even if it had that potential genetically. I'd argue a "real" family PPD is one of the hardest things to train... and that they are exceedingly rare- a dog that has the nerves and drive to take down a man, but can hang out with kids, family friends, etc. without issue. 

I'm glad to hear the puppy is being returned to the breeder. This sounds like a good solution. Buyer beware. I tell those who are serious about a PPD that a trained family PPD can cost upwards of $50,000 (check Ivan B's website that number could even be called on the low end). If that's what you want, for real, I direct buyers elsewhere and for fur Caveat Emptor when it comes to a PPD.

Many working line German Shepherds can live with family and are great with kids. I know of many. However, genetics and raising matter a lot. It's certainly not every one, and I'd lean toward a female in general, however, I've known plenty of spicey females so it's not guarantee of being good with all kids and all kid behaviors (which can be extremely unpredictable).


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Pet owners also need to differentiate between a family dog that will appropriately bark/growl and _potentially_ protect vs a defined and trained PPD.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wolfstraum said:


> I think the choice here is to euthanize the dog or return to breeder.........either way no money back. No rescue is going to take a dog with a bite history - especially when it was a child that was bitten.....The breeder now has a 7 month old with baggage of biting a child that he has to feed, house, vet and retrain....that he placed with a fanily who PERHAPS over estimated their own ability - I hesitate to comment on the training video -but I see some .......lack of consistency and clarity in methodology.....shall we say?
> 
> In any case - refunds are not NORMALLY done in most cases of returned dogs.....I have seen people return a pup anywhere from 3 days to a week after getting it (1st one was husband bought pup, wife terrified of mouthy pup - received Sat, returned Weds; second one was a week, and buyers thought child was allergic.....ends up coincidence that child had eczema.....owner was a doctor! but not a dermatologist! a third was that the people had an English bull dog [male] and he was licking and climbing on a9 week old female constantly and they refused to crate him or neuter him as it was "not fair" to him".) Different degrees of response by breeders to these- and different expectations from the buyers! A friend also bought a pup from a breeder who was a State Trooper - nasty pup from get go....put tons of time, effort and money in training...I knew people, did not like pedigree on pup and did not think it was a good fit from day one. Lots of red flags, dog had bad elbows too (who has the audacity to breed a female with SV severe elbow dysplasia and then tells buyers his own vet says they are fine??? yes - stupid buyer SHOULD have said NO!!!) Dog has lots of threatening moments and finally just gets the husband who is bringing him fresh water in the kennel ......spent the day in the ER.....dog returned to breeder next day....no contract, no refund, angry at buyer for dumping dog on him wiht bite history ----huge investment in dog - price of pup, commission to gobetween, many hours of private OB at $60 per hour, routine vet work and OFA pre-lims.........owner got nothing back, dog sold for LE K9 to Canada "for $6000".....it is the way it is....owner did not have the contacts or the experience to sell this dog....breeder had to rehab it.
> 
> Lee


I agree it’s a tough situation for this particular case. I know a lot of breeders take the puppies back without refunds. I also know that after a certain amount of time those dogs are resold. The bite history can certainly limit homes. I think keeping and vetting is usually minimal. In a situation like yours or mine it’s much more tedious. If the breeder is setup the way I think they are, it’s not for them. The best case for this dog IMO would be finding him a working home that can deal with these issues. He’s going to go back to the breeder. He’s going to get labeled experienced home only. He’s going to be resold. The breeder is going to double dip because he sold the dog to a home that wasn’t prepared for him.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> I missed this the first time I read it. The breeder didn’t meet your family. When we bought from a breeder and had young children, she insisted on meeting our children, the best friends who were going interact with the dog and our dog sitter. We took a caravan to meet her. Had the breeder met your children, he might have made a different selection or declined to sell you a dog at that time if he didn’t have a puppy that would work well with a young family. You said your children are 8 and 10 but I also saw a 2 year old in your video. That makes a difference.


Yes, we have a 10 year old, an 8 year old and identical twin 2 year olds. I homeschool the big kids, so it it just me, the kids and dogs while my husband is at work. It's not that I can't control a big dog. I can. I just can't control 2 big dogs that need training, homeschool, care for twin toddlers (they are working line, too I think 🤣) and run the house. I definitely tried and gave it my best. I just obviously did not have it under control if my child got bit. That is my fault. If we didn't have kids, the gsd would 1000% be staying and on his way to board and train. Because I am not confident I can handle the gsd (and everything else here) and the kiddo is scared, he needs to go back to the breeder. Expensive and heartbreaking lesson, but it is what is.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Concerned Owner said:


> If it just wasn't a good fit, I would never expect money back. He said we were buying a dog that would be great with our young kids, that would be a fabulous protection animal given proper training and that we could stud in the future if we so choose to do. What we got was a really gorgeous, smart dog with one ball that attacks kids he was raised with and doesn't have the nerves for protection work (I don't think, but I am not the person at all that would know) and **** of a lot of stress. The money is not what we need. The kids to be safe and comfortable in their home and the dog to be alive and in the best situation possible for him is what we need, so it's whatever.


Maybe the pup had it all in him what the breeder promised but as an owner you have to put in the work, the insight and education to get that pup to its potential. The breeder evidently didn't see that and you have a young family that makes it difficult. Again, seems like a compromise is in order.
I like that certain GSD rescues won't adopt out dogs to young families. It's because of this story,


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> I don't understand why a "problem dog" returned to the breeder would be sold for more unless a ton of training was put in by the breeder to "fix" and elevate the dog. I have bought two dogs (each 12 weeks old) that were breeder returns, both were bought far below the original price and both original owners received no refund as far as I know.
> 
> I see peole trying to re-home young adult dogs (1-3 years for instance) and want a thousand or two for it and smh. Simply trying to find a great home for it should be priority one, jmo


Green dogs sale for 6k. The training and background really don’t matter. They usually check some basic things. Most people looking at working dogs aren’t going to care that the dog had trouble in a novice home. I know of people who specifically talked to breeders looking for dogs that had to come back for being to much. The pet market people are looking for cute puppies for insert whatever reason. As far as working venues, green dogs carry a lot more value.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Bearshandler said:


> I know of people who specifically talked to breeders looking for dogs that had to come back for being to much.


This has always been a great way to get a good, well bred dog pretty much for free, and skip all initial vet costs. A bonus if the owners do prelims so the state of hips/elbows is known.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My heart goes out to the family, the kids in particular. It's a lose lose situation. 
I don't know that a refund is appropriate here. I do think that selling a sick pup is out of line, and that cost should have been covered. I don't think that any reputable breeder would argue that. 
I can say that I watched 10 seconds of that video to determine that timing is way off and the lack of engagement is blatant. Not a knock on the owners, we all need to learn, but that tells me that we are dealing with someone who thinks they know more than they do. Training like that may work with a different breed but is not going to hold with an even moderate GSD.
The fact that the pup stayed for several months gives a good indication that pride was involved and the fact that the breeder is as dodgey as he is tells me that this pup was a status buy. Go to the big name, the high price, the smoothest talker. 
This also reminds me of the male pup from last year?, that was growling and snapping at his owners. Sounds like the same sales pitch and same breeder reaction.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

For learning and future purposes, what is the way you all would recommend correcting a dog that lunges at strangers or children.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Concerned Owner said:


> Yes, we have a 10 year old, an 8 year old and identical twin 2 year olds. I homeschool the big kids, so it it just me, the kids and dogs while my husband is at work. It's not that I can't control a big dog. I can. I just can't control 2 big dogs that need training, homeschool, care for twin toddlers (they are working line, too I think 🤣) and run the house. I definitely tried and gave it my best. I just obviously did not have it under control if my child got bit. That is my fault. If we didn't have kids, the gsd would 1000% be staying and on his way to board and train. Because I am not confident I can handle the gsd (and everything else here) and the kiddo is scared, he needs to go back to the breeder. Expensive and heartbreaking lesson, but it is what is.


It’s not your fault you couldn’t handle the dog. You have no time. I couldn’t do everything you are doing when I had young children. If the breeder knew your situation and lifestyle, he should not have sold you that dog. It was never a match. I’m sorry it’s been so difficult and upsetting for you. I wish you or your husband had posted here and asked before you got the dog. A majority of us would have said don’t do it. If your husband really wants a German Shepherd, consider adopting an older dog that is trained and socialized, and more important, more social than the breed standard. After the hurricane, rescues are full. Learn the breed on that dog. then when your twins are school age, you might be ready to deal with a more challenging puppy. I would suggest sticking with a showline. They can be protective too. If you decide to foster or adopt, ask here before you accept a dog permanently. We can give you a lot of good advice on how to bring a dog into your household, and how to select one. 

My younger dog was a rescue. She is high content GSD but looks purebred, just smaller than average. She’s good with children but still barks when we need her to and can be protective when needed. At the time I got her, I had a male that was a biter and I wanted a less intense dog to act as a balance to him, which she did. She has a high prey drive but is not human aggressive. A dog like her would make a perfect family dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Maybe I missed it, but I can't see where anyone has mentioned the obedience in the video. That is some pretty sharp obedience for a 12 week old pup! To obtain that level of training, the husband definitely knows what he's doing. With the right home, I think this dog could do very well in IPG or other sport. No need to consider euthanasia -a s has been mentioned, the bites were not serious, but more the result of over-the-top playful energy.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Someone responded basically the dog wasn't engaged and the training wasn't good. I thought not bad for a 12 week puppy with only 4 weeks of in home training. Here is another video


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Bearshandler said:


> Green dogs sale for 6k. The training and background really don’t matter. They usually check some basic things. Most people looking at working dogs aren’t going to care that the dog had trouble in a novice home. I know of people who specifically talked to breeders looking for dogs that had to come back for being to much. The pet market people are looking for cute puppies for insert whatever reason. As far as working venues, green dogs carry a lot more value.


Please tell me who is buying or selling green dogs for 6k unless your a big name breeder or handler. Police dogs are being sold for 10k give it take but the dog is certified ready for the street not a dog just going into training. Heck a young 8m to 18m green dog that passes all tests required for police work might sell for 5k.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Concerned Owner said:


> Someone responded basically the dog wasn't engaged and the training wasn't good. I thought not bad for a 12 week puppy with only 4 weeks of in home training. Here is another video


Aussie


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Please tell me who is buying or selling green dogs for 6k unless your a big name breeder or handler. Police dogs are being sold for 10k give it take but the dog is certified ready for the street not a dog just going into training. Heck a young 8m to 18m green dog that passes all tests required for police work might sell for 5k.


I can tell you the price for Connecticut state trooper “bought dogs” is 6k. Two of the 8-12 month dogs I looked at sold for 4.5k and 6k. I know if a dog they went back to the breeder because he was too much where he was at, Boston police department offered 10k for him. I know multiple people personally who regularly similar dogs for 5k roughly. I know if someone here I referred to a seller, offered a 1 year old dog for 5k.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Concerned Owner said:


> For learning and future purposes, what is the way you all would recommend correcting a dog that lunges at strangers or children.



You don't fix because you are not equipped....this is an environmental or genetic issues....not a pup who is primarily a companion dog prospect....a home with 3 kids and other dogs IS a companion home in most experienced breeders estimation.

Lee


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Bearshandler said:


> I can tell you the price for Connecticut state trooper “bought dogs” is 6k. Two of the 8-12 month dogs I looked at sold for 4.5k and 6k. I know if a dog they went back to the breeder because he was too much where he was at, Boston police department offered 10k for him. I know multiple people personally who regularly similar dogs for 5k roughly. I know if someone here I referred to a seller, offered a 1 year old dog for 5k.


I guess it depends on the demand and where u live. No dog is worth 5-6k green. Police dogs ready for the street is a whole different ballgame.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> Maybe I missed it, but I can't see where anyone has mentioned the obedience in the video. That is some pretty sharp obedience for a 12 week old pup! To obtain that level of training, the husband definitely knows what he's doing. With the right home, I think this dog could do very well in IPG or other sport. No need to consider euthanasia -a s has been mentioned, the bites were not serious, but more the result of over-the-top playful energy.


It's really good obedience for 12 weeks old, absolutely. But to play devil's advocate, it could also build frustration to have so much structured OB at such a young age and the timing of the marker was terrible. No matter, the main issue was wrong dog for wrong family.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I guess it depends on the demand and where u live. No dog is worth 5-6k green. Police dogs ready for the street is a whole different ballgame.


Location definitely plays a part to some extent. A dog is worth what someone is willing to pay.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Concerned Owner said:


> Yes, we have a 10 year old, an 8 year old and identical twin 2 year olds. I homeschool the big kids, so it it just me, the kids and dogs while my husband is at work. It's not that I can't control a big dog. I can. I just can't control 2 big dogs that need training, homeschool, care for twin toddlers (they are working line, too I think 🤣) and run the house. I definitely tried and gave it my best. I just obviously did not have it under control if my child got bit. That is my fault. If we didn't have kids, the gsd would 1000% be staying and on his way to board and train. Because I am not confident I can handle the gsd (and everything else here) and the kiddo is scared, he needs to go back to the breeder. Expensive and heartbreaking lesson, but it is what is.


Please don't beat yourself up over this. There is no way I'd take on a WL pup with twin 2 year olds and homeschooling your other kids. That's a huge load in and of itself. You're not super-human after all. Let it go and learn and try again in a few years when the kids are older. My WL pup was a full time job (I'm retired) when I first got her. She was so full of energy that when not crated, I actually attached her to my waist with a leash so that I could get my chores done. We went out for exercise at least twice a day. She was on "go" non-stop for at least the first year and didn't really settle down til age 3.
I'm just glad the breeder will take the dog back and hopefully find the dog a good home. I'm sure the dog has a lot of potential and just needs a firm hand.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

WNGD said:


> It's really good obedience for 12 weeks old, absolutely. But to play devil's advocate, it could also build frustration to have so much structured OB at such a young age and the timing of the marker was terrible. No matter, the main issue was wrong dog for wrong family.


Yeah, I had similar thoughts. There just didn't seem to be much joy or enthusiam in it. At that age, training needs to be short and fun and interspaced with play. - At any age the play is beneficial but the time between can be longer.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

techinstructor said:


> Please don't beat yourself up over this. There is no way I'd take on a WL pup with twin 2 year olds and homeschooling your other kids. That's a huge load in and of itself. You're not super-human after all. Let it go and learn and try again in a few years when the kids are older. My WL pup was a full time job (I'm retired) when I first got her. She was so full of energy that when not crated, I actually attached her to my waist with a leash so that I could get my chores done. We went out for exercise at least twice a day. She was on "go" non-stop for at least the first year and didn't really settle down til age 3.
> I'm just glad the breeder will take the dog back and hopefully find the dog a good home. I'm sure the dog has a lot of potential and just needs a firm hand.


Thank you. I have cried so much and just not really slept in a week worrying over this situation and this dog. I promise, I really tried. We picked up our aussie early tonight so my husband would be here to help with the transition back into the house. The 8 year old that got bit couldn't get out of the pool fast enough to see him. He said, "mom, this is the best day of my life." I am so glad he seems to be doing well both mentally and healing up. Things are going super smooth at home, but I still am just feeling so horrible the gsd pup is still at animal services and scared. I wish I could go get him too and somehow be able to do it all.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There was just a story last week about a family two pb’s killing their two year old and 5 month old son and severely injured and hospitalized the mother trying to save her babies. The pair of dogs were 8 years old and came from a reputable breeder and supposedly bred for great temperments and strong lines. These dogs were euthanized the next day. Something seriously wrong with these dogs. This poor family and those beautiful kids.

You did exceptionally well taking two dogs off your son even though your dog was only 7 months old still things could of been so much worse. Biting from excited playing and biting from lack of nerves are two different things. Again I don’t see your other dog joining in if it was a play. Many people who own a high drive dog does not include an entire household with professional dog training skills. There was usually one person training the dog of course with boundaries set. At 6- 7 months old it would be the time when one would start need learning more when there are holes in training that will certainly arise and consequences vary to degrees depending on the dogs genetics. Each dog has something new to learn from . Many young male dogs shepherds can be impulsive and show poor judgment starting around this age but this case is quite extreme as your dog/dogs had to be pulled off a family member who was your young son in an unprovoked situation. If the dog was having behavior issues he should of been crated until your husband came home and worked with the dog in a controlled type settings, under guidance of a trainer as well as giving the dog much mental and physical outlets then crated leaving not much room for error when your husband could not supervise. It’s leaving not much room for mistakes is the big part for certain types of dogs. Still with young kids in the house there are always some type errors by someone in the household so stability and clear mindedness and a strong pack drive and strong nerves, high thresholds need to be priorities in any dog brought to the home with kids who are impulsive themselves. I had a police trained gsd working line ddr dog from Belgium who i acquired at 2 years of age. Our first gsd. It all worked because of the traits he possessed- he was very easy dog but had some boundaries. It is best to work with the dog you have now with a trainer. I hope your gsd finds an experienced home with no kids that will more suitable for him. If his breeder feels that he can profit on the pup even with invested time needed, I would imagine he would not hesitate to take the pup back.


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

From what I saw of the GSD video, this is very much a handler with very basic pet dog training experience. I say this not to be cruel, it’s just my opinion based on training with and observing pro level trainers (those who train GSDs, Malinois, etc). There are a lot of mistakes here, nothing fatal and certainly nothing that would cause the pup to behave as it did at 7m. But to me the mistakes are very much the signature of a novice pet dog handler. Which is totally fine for most dogs! But the skill level shown here is not a match for a WL GSD, even one that doesn’t have serious issues.

You are doing the right thing by returning the dog and by rehabilitating your Aussie. I would not advise you to get another GSD until you have much much MUCH more time, way less household chaos, and have spent significant time practicing dog training with a skilled working dog trainer (working with your Aussie is a good start).


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## Devon idle (5 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> My heart goes out to the family, the kids in particular. It's a lose lose situation.
> I don't know that a refund is appropriate here. I do think that selling a sick pup is out of line, and that cost should have been covered. I don't think that any reputable breeder would argue that.
> I can say that I watched 10 seconds of that video to determine that timing is way off and the lack of engagement is blatant. Not a knock on the owners, we all need to learn, but that tells me that we are dealing with someone who thinks they know more than they do. Training like that may work with a different breed but is not going to hold with an even moderate GSD.
> The fact that the pup stayed for several months gives a good indication that pride was involved and the fact that the breeder is as dodgey as he is tells me that this pup was a status buy. Go to the big name, the high price, the smoothest talker.
> This also reminds me of the male pup from last year?, that was growling and snapping at his owners. Sounds like the same sales pitch and same breeder reaction.


Hi
Totally agree.
I have spent the last 20 years adopting GSDs from these situations, 2 of which had bite histories with children. Fortunately with time & patience all of my rescues have come around, & have been amazing friends protectors to our 4 Grandchildren.Here too in UK many rescue centres will not rehome large breed dogs to families with young children.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

First, I'm really sorry to hear about your son being the recipient of this behavior. Second, a dog's testicles typically descend by 8 weeks, and anyone with eyeballs can verify that without a vet visit. The mere fact that your older, establish dog joined in biting your son tells me you may not have the experience for the GS or even the other dog. Yes, it sounds like your breeder was less than upfront with you, but one testicle or two, you've had the dog for 6-7 months. You have apparently, unwittingly mucked up the dog. The training or lack thereof is the issue, more likely than some perceived genetic anomaly. I'm really not trying to be harsh, and hope you have the best outcome.

In Elizabethtown, KY, in the 1990s, a Rottweiler breeder was killed along with her grandson, by their own three dogs while they were feeding them. Left unmitigated, bad behavior can become tragic.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Consider this: Your "problem dog" returned to the breeder may be just the dog I want. Problems can be situational. May the dog find the right home, may the OP get peace with their decision.


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## Atlas Shrugged (5 mo ago)

After having 4 GSD basically as a companion, there is only me and my partner no children. Firstly I dont think you should have a GSD pup unless you have time to keep a watch on it every single moment, as this is when most of the training is happening (correcting). My partner looks after our property and is at home 24/7 and I work. If we didnt have this arrangement we would not have a GSD. I have scars on both my arms from all our puppies, not to mention injuries but GSD puppies are not for the faint hearted, they could work with kids but only if you have the time to watch 24/7.
The first 6 months of Atlas's life we got nothing done around our home (we are renovating), my partner would just focus on Atlas until I got home around 2pm and then it was my turn to watch him.
You need to be confident and not scared of those raptor teeth, believe me I know. Our first boy who was from a backyard breeder (yes I know bad mistake we learnt!) I was not used to having a big dog and I was scared of him and intimidated, he protected me and was loyal to me but I could not control him as much as I was not confident. Now if my boys tries something its like a slap on the snoz and a big lecture to him and the annoyance I show (not fear) is enough for him to know Im not intimidated and within a few seconds he is asking for forgiveness. 
You have to be tough and not let anything slide, consistency and committment.


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## Concerned Owner (3 mo ago)

Our dog trainer came by to introduce my son to his super sweet and submissive gsd today. I think it was good for him. Our Aussie now has kennel cough from being at animal services, which sounds so pitiful. I hope the puppy isn't also sick. The trainer saw my son's injuries a few days ago and told me today that I basically over reacted and that it was not at all an attack and just rough play or my son would have been in the ER. He had lots of pointers for me, my husband and the kids about what we should do. We look forward to working with him. Hopefully we can get things going on a better track.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Concerned Owner said:


> The trainer saw my son's injuries a few days ago and told me today that I basically over reacted and that it was not at all an attack and just rough play or my son would have been in the ER


That's exactly what I (and several other people) said!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

We had a very similar situation with Captain. He belongs to my granddaughters other grandma. He was leaving bruises, getting over excited, bullying the kids and his owner. The last straw was when they went sledding and he got over excited and "attacked" the granddaughter going down the hill. Shredded her snow suit and left scratches and bruises on her back and legs.

This was all play with no rules. No aggression. Definitely not an attack.

All it took was some consistent training and leadership. Yes, this is good. No, this is bad. He stayed with us 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and was much better after a couple weeks. I also worked with the owner a lot on how to handle him.

He and the granddaughter are buddies now. It just took a little time and training.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t think it was an attack either and I don’t think it will take some major reclamation project.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Oh, and impulse control. Waiting at doors. Waiting until released to fetch. Waiting for dinner. Waiting in the truck. Good tug rules. Down stay. Place command. 

All this stuff builds good habits and impulse control.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

David Winners said:


> Oh, and impulse control. Waiting at doors. Waiting until released to fetch. Waiting for dinner. Waiting in the truck. Good tug rules. Down stay. Place command.
> 
> All this stuff builds good habits and impulse control.


Agree. Theo is 6.5 months and I also take care of his litter sister along with my three grandchildren who are 8, 7and 5. The pups need to be taught impulse control when the kids are running around screaming because they naturally feed off the excitement of the kids. 

The kid’s also need to be taught impulse control and which is often harder than training the pups 🤣
With consistency or is a great opportunity 
Here they are with Theo in a quieter moment 








Stop looking at the screens and throw the ball!







youtube.com


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A good herding dog will run after a sledding kid that leaves the group. I had a GSD mix that would do that. We were on top of the hill when I asked my 5 year old son before he sled down, "Can you handle Clyde?" before letting the dog go. Answer, "Yes!" so it went, down the hill, dog running after him, grabbing him by the coat, both crashing into the fence, kid crying, dog took the sled and brought it back. Life lessons! But this dog had been taught impulse control.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sorry -shouldn't laugh! But the dog bringing the sled back...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Sorry -shouldn't laugh! But the dog bringing the sled back...


We were all laughing and when my son made it back on the hill, he said, "Stupid dog!!" which made it more fun for us. No caressing the boy with , "Oh honeyyyyy, were you huuuuuurt?"


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would imagine the trainer would have to watch your son and gsd interact before he can know this. Either way it sounds like it will work out for all.

Gsd pup+snow suits + my young kids running around = long lead ropes and constructive ways to interact, otherwise Max as a pup shredding snow suits, stolen hats and mittens and playing leap frog with the kids in the snow lol!


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think it was an attack either and I don’t think it will take some major reclamation project.


I think half the problem is dedicating the time to it, and the other half is identifying anything that hyper-stimulates them. Sharp puppy teeth and open-mouthed dives toward your face kind of help you develop that awareness. Rey split my forehead open (lots of bleeding) at 3 months, just playing. Nova goes from licking my foot to grabbing my whole calf and shaking my leg like I'm a ring-sport decoy. There's just an early window where it seems like every drive they have wants to express itself at once (at least in the two I've had so far).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

David Winners said:


> Oh, and impulse control. Waiting at doors. Waiting until released to fetch. Waiting for dinner. Waiting in the truck. Good tug rules. Down stay. Place command.
> 
> All this stuff builds good habits and impulse control.


👍 Deference behaviors!


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