# Showline breeders that don't linebreed?



## WadeGSD (Mar 31, 2014)

Pretty much impossible to find for me so far (as you would think due to the nature of the business). 

Is anyone familiar with any or know anyone with an upcoming litter that isn't linebred?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Line breeding itself is not inherently bad. Its the goal of the linebreeding and the individuals that you linebreed on that can cause issues.
If your line breeding for pigment or toplines as opposed to workability then you get what you get. Then again if your outcrossing for those same traits I dont see you being much better off.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Indeed. What specific reason are you looking for for no line breeding?

Everybody does it, show AND working lines.

My first litter is an outcross, but my second will be linebred on a couple of dogs.


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## WadeGSD (Mar 31, 2014)

Part of it is health. Part of it is just me not agreeing with the practice on a personal level. I'm not judging anyone who does it with good intentions. It's just not something I feel comfortable with. 

Just to clarify, title is worded incorrectly. I'm not necessarily looking for breeders who don't linebreed, rather just a SL breeding from a good breeder that isn't linebred.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

linebreeding is a way to lock in good health. Whether or not a litter is linebred or an outcross has less impact on health than the dogs behind the breeding. 

what personal problem do you have with linebreeding? Just curious because I've heard people say that before but never got an explanation on what they don't like about it


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Most any good breeder linebreeds to develope their own specific bloodline. The goal being to lock in a certain type of look or character traits they like in a dog.

Many people anthromorphize and assume whats taboo in the western world should be the same with companion animals. Its not. 

Im sure you can find an outcross but unless its a repeat litter it one big crapshoot as to how the pups turnout.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you're talking about WGSL, good luck. What linebreeding do you not like? Like, what numbers do you find unacceptable? I would posit that you're not going to find litters being bred today with *zero*, in, say, 6 generations.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I don't think you'll find a puppy with absolutely no line-breeding, all purebred dogs technically are line-bred even it if may be 8 or even 20 generations back.

Do you mean inbreeding? The practice of breeding mother to son, or perhaps even cousin to cousin?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

There's a difference between linebreeding and inbreeding.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

see iceberg breeders http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...actice-better-way-think-about-breeding-2.html

Elliot Humphrey , part designer of the Fortunate Fields guide dog breeding program , in a later article said that without variety you can have no improvement. 
Mirroring that statement van Oirschot "we got uniformity in genetic makeup and that means loss of genetic variation" ..... "Hochzucht breeding became a matter of copying the successful formula of the successful breeders; doing more of the same. The demand for type was a demand for the predominant type set by a world famous kennel "von der Wienerau". To deviate from this type was to deviate from the Hochzucht breeding. Hochzucht developed into a one way street."

http://www.videxgsd.com/PDF/Strengths%20&%20Weaknesses%20of%20the%20modern%20GSD.pdf


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> linebreeding is a way to lock in good health.


I'm really not seeing that happen. Overwhelmingly, dogs are increasingly less healthy, dying younger & struggling with a plethora of miseries such as allergies & digestive disorders. 

Linebreeding is here to stay but it s/b done with extreme care, a deep knowledge of the lines involved, & a clear understanding of the very real risks & drawbacks. Inbreeding or linebreeding for health is usually misdirected. Deleterious genes are often 'hidden', such as rare recessives or those in polygenetic conditions & only make themselves known when inherited from both parents. As gene pools shrink that happens more & more frequently. In the dog world 'rare recessive' is practically an oxymoron. For example, eliminating HD while increasing the occurence of EPI, cancers, allergies, or heart conditions wouldn't be a win.

Overall health, vigor & longevity are best served by genetic diversity. Linebreeding produces more consistent dogs & breeds would hardly exist without it, but increasingly the dogs are consistently less healthy, less robust & dying younger. Way, way, wayyy too often this is done in the pursuit of 'pretty' although it's rarely stated so baldly.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> There's a difference between linebreeding and inbreeding.


Frankly, that difference is largely one of degree, & is too often little more than semantics.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> Frankly, that difference is largely one of degree, & is too often little more than semantics.


I don't know much about the world of purebred dogs, but what I have learned is that line-breeding is just a euphemism for in-breeding. In other words, they are one and the same. So, I think I am in agreement with RubyTuesday.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Line breeding and inbreeding are NOT inherently the same. If you have no true understanding of line breeding, combined with proper health and temperament tests and knowledge of the pedigree and past dogs that ALL good breeders should have, then you have no business passing judgment on the practice. Breeding a dog to a "relative" 5-6 generations back offers more than enough genetic diversity vs. Breeding brother to sister or mother to son.

That being said, in the show line world you're usually line breeding to lock in a certain confirmation point as working ability is rarely tested amongst top SL dogs. So this is where I fear *hidden* genes that can greatly affect temperament are more likely to pop up, as well as health.

Although you can't say it couldn't be the same in the working world, where more and more dogs are simply bred tor have higher and higher prey drive to win a sport, and now where most schutzhund dogs would fail horribly at being true working or PP dogs



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It is very very very hard to avoid line breeding in workinglines, and nearly impossible in showlines.....One big problem is popularity of <whichever> winning males at the highest levels - some of these dogs can get hundreds of covers/breedings - maybe near a thousand in their lifetimes...that trickles down into nearly impossible to avoid the dog. Some line breeding is going to be evident in almost every single litter, if not, then there will be backmassing in the 7-10th generations.

Personally, coming from a horse background, where genetic problems have been known to be caused from heavy inbreeding/linebreeding (HYPP - Impressive!) I am somewhat careful on how much of a good thing is too much. The WLs are boxed up into a corner with certain dogs. Even finding a stud dog without certain lines/dogs is nearly impossible without going to Czech and DDR dogs....we had some Belgian lines without overly popular dogs - but alas, the one male got used heavily in Germany then and the most popular results do have the overly used dogs.

If the breeder does a breeding knowing what the linebred dog is known for passing, that is not always a bad thing. Unfortunately, I have found that too many just identify the dog as being a BSP/WUSV dog or sire.

Lee


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a bitch that is 12 1/2 years old. You can look at her pedigree and see that she is linebred, but she is very healthy - eats well, jumps into the van, is starting to have sight and hearing difficulties but manages quite well. Linebreeding is not the devil -- breeding all depends on the dogs that are bred.

CH Andaka-Zederland's Voodoo Doll


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

nice female .


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me "inbreeding" = parent to child or siblings breeding. Really all GSDs are going to be "linebred", it just depends on how many generations back you are interested. Just because the Pedigree Database shows 5 generations by default doesn't mean someone like me isn't looking 6, 7, 8.... generations back, or say there's a dog in the 6th generation that himself was inbred or heavily linebred, I'm interested in that. Just because there may be "no common ancestry" in 5 generations doesn't mean the genetics beyond 5 generations aren't coming into play.


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## anitram (Feb 28, 2014)

All very fascinating!

Does anyone have a good link to explain how to read the linebreeding notes on Pedigree Database? I'm a total newbie and I've found lots of good sites that explain linebreeding vs inbreeding but I can't seem to find one that would help me make sense of exactly what is in our pup's lineage.

His sire: VA1 NSV NV11 NUCH Rothco's Ashan Kahn

His dam: V1 Nutella dei Precision


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