# German Shepherd Breeders Today



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The German Shepherd dog has a long history and legacy of being a versatile utility dog. Many feel that the breed today is fragmented and separated into different lines or divisions.
I assert that the responsible breeders of today often donot have the zest and zeal for the all around knowledge of the versatility of the breed. The breed is very versatile in type, temperament and performance. This has allowed the breed to be the attraction to family, service, and vocation. To me the essence of the breed, what makes a German Shepherd different than any other breed is this versatility. 
I see the different venues producing many breeders that are one-legged stools. Very knowledgable about what they perform in but extremely deficient in the other 80% of what this breed can do. Still, yet I see responsible breeders that have no sense of history or legacy, and in some cases very little knowledge about the history of their own dogs. 
My question is should a breeder of a versatile dog be knowledgable about most of the aspects of which this dog is used? Would this help to keep breeding practices centered so to speak? Can you really be a responsible breeder only breeding for one aspect of the dog's heritage?
Is it possible that the best all around dog no longer has all around breeders?????


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Cliffson what a great topic! 

I am a firm believer that we still have a utilitarian dog in some lines with some breeders. Some breeders may not know what they have, but with the right eyes looking others can. Not enough credit is given to these all around breeders, including from themselves. 

This breed is loosing its spark generation after generation and its those breeders giving it a glimmer of hope. 

Seeing as most dog breeding ideas, practices, and plans are based on Victorian times, you would think we have it easy. Look at all of this DNA testing and health testing. We take it for granted. Even though we ate fighting natures hard grip, we could still have a better handle on these health issues plagued in our breed.

If someone took the time to do a scientific study on drives and temperament versus nurture we could learn a lot and get somewhere with this.

People focus too hard on the big picture of things. I have no use for a SchH3 if its fake, or a VA that was bought. Especially if those dogs in reality bring nothing to the breed.

What do these people faking x rays, paying for accomplishments on their dogs and not learning anything about their dogs think they are doing to the breed?

I think understanding the good, bad, ugly, and pretty of this breed is important for ALL GSD breeders. Take the time to learn what the breed was, is, and needs to be. How can you breed for better if you don't know that.

A breeders dogs may be a great accet(sp?) To the breed, but if the breeder can't figure out what it is they have to offer and what to bring it to, to improve then what good is it?

I don't think you can be a responsible breeder if you have tunnel vision about your goals in this breed. I can understand time constraints that hold you personally back from multiple venues. But knowing what it takes to be a utilitarian dog and continuing to breed towards that is what the breed needs. 

If you are a German Shepherd breeder and you are not doing those things, then you are not fulfilling all of your responsibilities as a GSD breeder.
JMO


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Yes, a good, knowledgeable breeder should be aware of all aspects of the breed's ability. Any given litter is going to have a range of temperaments, drives and abilities. If a breeder is so focused on their own niche, they will not have the knowledge required to place puppies that don't fit that narrowly defined area of interest.

I very much believe that part of the education process for breeders should be a decent understanding of everything this breed is capable of. It shouldn't matter if your particular interests as a breeder don't include these other activities. Because the breed is so utilitarian, chances are you will find puppies more suited to some other activity in your litters (eventually). That is the way it should be. So do right by the breed as a whole and place those puppies where they can shine the best.

Also, if a breeder has a solid idea of what the breed is capable of, what SHOULD be present in a dog, they will also have a better idea of what SHOULDN'T be present in a dog. 
Sheilah


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Tunnel vision--I know about that, right? 

I think that there are breeders out there who like what they like. Focus on what they like, but are still able to produce a good all-around dog. Sometimes it is hard to pull the blinders off, but they can sometimes be coerced into it. 

I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having something specific that you like or focus on, as long as it doesn't become a crutch for losing out on other important traits. Everyone has something they are partial too. But I think that what makes a good breeder, trainer, etc of GSD's is the ability to acknowledge when your flavor needs a little spice.

I think there are a lot of people breeding today that shouldn't be because they don't have the knowledge. But I still think there are a lot of breeders out there producing good dogs. Even if their concentration is a specific thing--SchH for instance....I like to see that those puppies are able to go into various venues. Even if the breeder is only interested in sport on the surface, they are still able to produce SAR dogs, or police dogs, or tracking dogs, or herding dogs, or dogs who are simply great family pets because deep down they recognize what the breed should still be.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Yes this is a very good topic Cliff.

What I have seen in the short 12 years of breeding dogs is that I have seen breeders focus on only a few factors whether it is Hips, Sport dogs, Titles, ect. I see very few that look at the total dog when bring 2 together to breed. I have to admit that I am still learning and when I don't know I go to those who are more knowledgeable than I to get my answers and it isn't just what one has to say, but I reflect on the total picture of comments. IMO I see a lot of breeders today see a hot dog come to the states from overseas and a bunch line up to breed to him without first factoring in what this male will bring while matching up to the female being bred. How many do you see that breed to these famous dogs litter- mates? We have so many that are just focused on titled dogs only where the litter mate may carry the same genetics, but because he/she doesn't have titles they walk away from this dog. Then we have some that want to only breed dogs with good or excellent hips without factoring in that these dogs may not produce such in their puppies. Rather than knowing the genetics behind a dog that may have fair hip ratings I see them dis-include them from the gene pool. Before you know it we will loose all the fine qualities this breed carries by using these practices Or that to try to improve on this line as many in the past history of the breed did by bring this dog to a improver of such to help strengthen these line to further increase the gene pool. I see others breeding only for sport dogs, looking to make smaller faster dogs that will excel only in sport and they forget about dogs in the past that had great structure although not a quick as the ones now a days are.

I chose the Czech lines due to the like of the heads, bone, and strength that they produced. I haven't tried to improve their abilities to do sport but tried to preserve what they once were. Not every breeding is guaranteed to be better than the next as we all know that breeding isn't a science and there are breeding that don't turn out the way we think they should. Yes there are members here that think I shouldn't be breeding dogs or that I have a lot to learn. I would be the first to admit that there is always something one can learn and this is why I come to boards like this one and surround myself with others that are more knowledgeable when it comes to lines that I don't know about

IMO I think that us breeders shouldn't be afraid to share knowledge about our dogs whether good or bad and stop being fearful of what others say about these dogs we own as this will only help to improve on the breed we all love so much


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Can you explain what you mean by versatility? 

I always thought versatility meant that every GSD should be born possessing the same natural instincts, (to herd, to guard etc.) and that it's the different levels of drive and the dogs temperament that determines what it will actually be able to do well as an adult. So the strengths a bloodline has come in varying degrees, but none should be so strong as to interfer or wipe out other traits. Right or wrong?

I think a breeder that's produced a wide array of dogs, K-9's, SAR, tracking, sport and companion dogs etc., understands the versatility of the breed and I think these are the best breeders. On the other hand, a breeder who produces nothing but personal protection dogs might understand that the breed is versatile but chooses to hone in on certain qualities. Is that bad? A breeder producing companion dogs might have a great grasp on the breed but simply decides to not title their dogs. How do we know which breeder knows more than the other except for obvious things? How do you know if a breeder understands what the breed should be? 

It's all pretty confusing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

breeding has turned into a commercial venture .
Once again it is not just this breed it is a global problem in every breed . When breeding marches to the drum of the buying public then things go haywire and to extremes . When substandard "product" , knock-offs, and using Ralph Nader's phrase bringing the auto industry to task "planned obsolensence" are accepted as desirable and the norm how do you bring value to the real thing.
I deliberately drew attention to Poodles in another thread because they have the same problems as GSD . Originally a german water dog to retrieve fallen game in swampy water , robust and healthy , terribly smart , and now? " _Modern dogs are a poor copy of their sturdier ancestors, and many an animal that was once in the forefront of the chase has now been turned by the breeders into a wretched specimen which can hardly hold a sugared biscuit in its mouth without dropping it._ 
(Philip Warner, Historian.) " this quote taken from a breeder in France . 
No drive no character no correct breed specific characteristics.
I think a breeder should be very well informed in a practical way , hands on experience , not copying promotional material . How many times do you see web sites with people who have owned GSD for a sum total of 5 years and they are "breeding for the ultimate- all round working dog as per von Stephanitz vision" when they have not had the experience of breeding a normal basic dog , have never worked a dog , have never delved into the complexity of the land race breeds von Stephanitz documented . 
Cliff , one does it because it is right, the thing to do , because you have a passion . Really really hard to use for marketing . 
Once again -- an outstanding book to read is "Bred for Perfection" by Margaret Derry , U of T .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It's about supply and demand. Also the public and what they want.

The only breeder near me sells 100lb. plus GSD's. Their advertisment is for old fashioned GSD's the way they were meant to be. They sell all year round and sometimes the pups are with them until 6 mos. old but eventually they lower the price and get rid of them. The usual price is $500 for limited reg. or $1000 if you intend to breed.

I hardly ever saw a sable pup in public but they seem to be getting popular right now. I have a sable pup but didn't get her for her color although I like it. The point is if sable becomes popular and creates a market then some will breed for color and forget about other characteristics.

I think soon we will see Toy or miniture GSD's. Then will come Germadoodles or Labragerms or some other designer dog.

All that is needed is a market like Labradoodles have now.

The people who buy them will love them and after awhile will believe their dogs do represent the breed.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I rest my case. A thread just came up for someone looking for Silver Sable Breeders.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Whiteshepherds....a person who breeds correct GS from which some can be used for personal protection understand German Shepherd breeding....a person who breeds German Shepherds for Personal protection is as bad as the exclusiveshow/sport world. The breed was meant to be specialized...specialty is the anthesis of all around dog. Does that make sense????? And Chuck brings up a good point in reflecting how people pigeonhole themselves into only certain hip levels, title, color, etc. as a basis for their breeding selections. When you stay centered in versatility and utility, you take care of many health, structural, and temperament issues. For many today because of the lack of all around knowledge, they become fixated on artificial elements to measure the dog's worth. Carmen's example of poodles is going right over some of your heads, the GS is aimed in a very similar direction. Just listen to what some of the posters on this forum think the breed ought to be today. The poodle was a magnificent retreiving dog in the homeland years ago....today most people are shocked to know of this breeds working abilities. This has already started (for 40 years in America) with out breed. People breed for demand, most demand is pets, so people breed for pets. The utility and versatility go right out the door like it has for the poodle.
There are no shortcuts for breeders without paying consequences.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

carmspack said:


> I think a breeder should be very well informed in a practical way , hands on experience , not copying promotional material . http://www.carmspack.com


Exactly. The "promotional material" thought is so prevalent with some WGSL breeders that they can't talk past the occurrence of a high profile name or two in a pedigree and how deep pigment is (not to pick on WGSL breeders in particular, I only use them as an example because the last GSD puppy I bought was a WGSL). That high profile name or the deep pigment are the talking points that get passed around (the promotional material that is relied on), and many breeders have no deeper understanding. It stops there, at a very shallow level.
Sheilah


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I have grave misgivings about the growing popularity of "Darksablebigheadheavybone." And I say that as someone who owns a dark sable dog with a big head and heavy bone. He's my 3rd GSD and I've fostered for years, but owning, training, and working with him is a daily education. I worry about breeders who own one black sable stud and 8 or 10 dark sable females and haven't done anything with them but make and sell dark sable puppies. 

I see a lot of advertisements for "Dark sable DDR/Czech puppies" and when you look at the pedigree the dog is 1/32 Czech and 1/4 WGWL, but West German doesn't sell puppies like "DDR/Czech" does. 

Again, I say this as someone who owns a dark sable DDR/WGWL/Czech dog and has fallen in love with his willing temperament, sweet personality, hardheaded stubbornness, balanced drives, moderate energy level, and willingness to try anything I put in front of him. Part of me would like to neuter my male, acquire a nice female, and try my hand at breeding to preserve what I love about these dogs against the people breeding strictly for color and bone, but threads like this make me think I could never be capable; that I'd just be contributing to the problem.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> People breed for demand, most demand is pets, so people breed for pets. The utility and versatility go right out the door like it has for the poodle.
> There are no shortcuts for breeders without paying consequences.


I see this everyday with people that want just a pet and breeders supplying just that not knowing what they are producing except for the fact that they are able to place their pups in homes. IMO, This breed has many purposes and can do almost anything you put in front of it ( Some better than others). As we all know that each litter consists of different types of pups where some may excel in PPD, SARS, Therapy, Schutzhund ect. It is up to the breeder to be able to see which pups they think will do well in each venue. We all forget or get caught up in what is trendy and for this the breed suffers. Until we breed for the total dog will we be able to improve the breed. I get many inquires for a color type rather than what abilities a such pup possess and I just shake my head in disbelief.

As Cliff has stated there is no short cuts without the breed suffering the consequences in the process.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well just ran into an example of breeding , shaking head . I'll keep it anonymous , but web site emphasizes colour , and size , very very large, huge , male little angulation. Upcoming litter female's sire has mix of Lord Gleisdreieck and Yoschy (sister) Dollenwiese , motherline German show . Planned breeding is to male who has Asko Lutter , Sagus , a Mona Dollenwiese 2-3 female.
That is Mona 3 times , Lord , Asko , Sagus , with german show. And the results .... right after this station break. What do you think. The person does not know the dogs. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I haven't read the replies, but I think a lot of it also has to do with what the puppy buyer wishes to do with a dog. I know not every breeder is going to do SchH, herding, OB, flyball, agility, and everything else with their dogs, despite their potential. 

If I go to a breeder who breeds SchH dogs, that doesn't mean I can't do herding or flyball with my puppy. I think a GSD's versatility is limited by the people who own them and what they're willing and able to do with the dog(s), financially and time allotting. 

Hope that made sense....


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Konotashi, I think that Cliff means that some breeders get so caught up in the factors that make a good Sch dog (for example) that they eventually reach the point that the dog is worthless for anything else. (I would argue that eventually they will become useless at Sch as well).
We'll use bite for an example. The breeder is focused on a dog that bites harder so takes the 2 dogs he can find with the hardest bite - doesn't care what they look like, what they act like, what the health is like. All he cares is bite. 

Other breeders it might be color. Or drive. That is how these myths get started that working dogs can't be pets - breeders who have bred such over-the-top dogs that they are worthless for anything else.

So you have sport breeders breeding for aggression and bite.
Sch breeders breeding for drive.
Herding people breeding for dogs that will move sheep.
Agility people breeding for a dog that is fast.
Show breeders who want more and more angulation.

All of those have the potential of focusing only on that one characteristic and producing dogs that can't do anything else. 

In your example, the breeder IS breeding for versatile dogs. They have the correct temperament and drives to succeed at anything you ask of them. Now, say you went to a breeder like Cliff is talking about - focused only on one trait, using obedience as an example. 
The breeder has bred dogs for generations that are great agility/obedience prospects. But maybe they were so focused on that they let the hips slide. And forget about correct GSD temperament. They wouldn't touch a "biting" dog with a 10foot pole. There are breeders out there who pride themselves on producing a GSD that would never bite. You buy a pup and like obedience, but you want to try herding. Will the dog have the instinct to herd? Maybe, maybe not.

The idea isn't that the dogs are WORKED in every venue, but that the dogs would be able to if you want to.
Rayden, he would make an excellent herding dog, but most every activity is out for him because of a breeder that focused on selling potential over health.

I'm not sure if that even made sense, I feel like I'm rambling a bit this morning.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

It is also the people who breed to "what's in" or within a tight circle of people. People that breed based on what someone told them to do, or with no real focus. That is part of the issue as well.


There are a few breeders that we do watch as well; they have a focus, a long term goal of what they are looking for. Some are on this board.

A litter make up also depends on the dogs bred as well as the pedigrees themselves. We did a breeding that we truly (and did) make sure that the entire group went into experienced working homes with a great support system for training. The combo of peds and dogs was what we thought


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay, I get what you're saying. 



Dainerra said:


> \Or drive. That is how these myths get started that working dogs can't be pets - breeders who have bred such over-the-top dogs that they are worthless for anything else.


I'm definitely one who has fallen for the myths, if you can't tell by my some of my latest threads. :blush: Love WGSLs, love WLs, but I feel like a WL would be way too much dog for me to handle....


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Dainerra, I just wrote a post on another thread before I just read your reply. Anyway, That is EXACTLY what I am trying to say....what you just wrote above.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Konotashi said:


> Okay, I get what you're saying.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm definitely one who has fallen for the myths, if you can't tell by my some of my latest threads. :blush: Love WGSLs, love WLs, but I feel like a WL would be way too much dog for me to handle....


Why do you think that? If the dog is well bred regardless of line, it should be biddable, balanced and have an off switch. I don't know of many working lines that are "too much to handle". Usually they are easiest to train because they have drive and biddability.
Though the ones I train with are from good pedigree/breeders.

One thing I see now with the SL breeders, everyone is impressed with a huge blocky head....another WHY???


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Upcoming litter female's sire has mix of Lord Gleisdreieck and Yoschy (sister) Dollenwiese , motherline German show . Planned breeding is to male who has Asko Lutter , Sagus , a Mona Dollenwiese 2-3 female.
> That is Mona 3 times , Lord , Asko , Sagus , with german show.


I don't even know anything about bloodlines and that pedigree scares me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> well just ran into an example of breeding , shaking head . I'll keep it anonymous , but web site emphasizes colour , and size , very very large, huge , male little angulation. Upcoming litter female's sire has mix of Lord Gleisdreieck and Yoschy (sister) Dollenwiese , motherline German show . Planned breeding is to male who has Asko Lutter , Sagus , a Mona Dollenwiese 2-3 female.
> That is Mona 3 times , Lord , Asko , Sagus , with german show. And the results .... right after this station break. What do you think. The person does not know the dogs.


I don't know much about pedigrees, but that sounds like a bite waiting to happen. 

I recently received a litter announcement. Dam is 100% WGSL. Sire's sire is 1/2 WGSL and 1/2 DDR. Sire's dam is named Little Angel and is pet lines all the way back. Litter is being advertised as "DDR/Czech with some show." :thinking:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> @Dainerra, I just wrote a post on another thread before I just read your reply. Anyway, That is EXACTLY what I am trying to say....what you just wrote above.


I think, to, is that many people forget that if you don't work to KEEP a trait, it can get lost in the shuffle. 
That's why I like reading your stuff and your ideas on breeding and the dogs you've bred. I prefer a breeder that works for the total package, not just a single trait.

You get into even more trouble when you add in breeders whose only focus is whatever is selling at the moment.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think people are just jaded about what really makes a dog the "best" at something in the first place. Like so often I see people on forums ooo-ing and aaaah-ing over a dog's really flashy, snappy obedience and I'm left to wonder what it's like to LIVE with a dog like that, so hyper and neurotic in prey drive it would probably jump off a 1000ft cliff just for a ball? Is that *really* what makes a dog good? My favorite GSD that I've owned (or favorite among close friends' and family members' GSDs to widen the pool) is the one least likely to be setting speed records, winning the rapid recall or long bite competitions, standing on the WUSV podium because to me, the same reasons why he is not working from a state of obsession are the same reasons why I like him so much and enjoy working with him in a huge variety of venues. My top criteria when judging my dogs' temperament is how well they can think, how well they can asses a situation and reason on their own. The decision they make not only require the right balance of drives, power, and courage but also an ability to be clear-headed, to possess the appropriate threshold of knowing when and how to react (or not!). One of my favorite GSDs I've ever met was "just" a family pet, but this was a dog that when you meet his eye you just know he is a real German shepherd, and I don't mean tear-your-face-off aggression "real" like some of the sport people throw around, but one of the most noble and regal animals I have ever seen.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

As I said before is that there are those that see many bringing in a male to their lines and everyone else follows suit. This is what happen way back years ago when the Martin brothers bred everything from the Q Aminius lines ( Questo, Quanto, ect). If you look at most WGSL they are saturated with these dogs and they are just not brought in once or twice. Then all of a sudden everyone is following suit which now leaves these dogs no where to go with breeding. Breeding themselves into a corner. Now comes all these health issues. IMO this is from bring these dogs to many times to a pedigree and their bloodlines aren't strong enough to do this with ( Although what line are strong enough to do this with ). I see the WGWL going into the same direction with everyone bring in Yoshey into their bloodlines.

This just an example and only my opinion for what I have seen in just the short 12 years of breeding


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

NarysDad said:


> This is what happen way back years ago when the Martin brothers bred everything from the Q Aminius lines ( Questo, Quanto, ect). If you look at most WGSL they are saturated with these dogs and they are just not brought in once or twice. Then all of a sudden everyone is following suit which now leaves these dogs no where to go with breeding. Breeding themselves into a corner.


Where are the show line breeders to go, if they want to add fresh blood? If you were to outcross to working lines, which working lines? If there are absolutely no show lines left that are not saturated with Canto and Quanto, do forward-thinking breeders just continue on with a limited gene pool and hope for the best? I can't imagine that this strategy can hold up over time.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have a dog with an interesting pedigree. He is 3/4 ASL, 1/4 DDR. From what I have read here about the DDR lines, they have higher thresholds and are therefore slower to react. This can be both good and bad -- because they are slower to react they make good breeding partners for the reactive lines such as show lines can be, but they are also slower to mature mentally and must be given more time while training. I also prefer their conformation style as a possible addition to my show lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree I used as an example with Mona Dollenwiese being on there 3 (or 4 without rechecking) to german show , with Lord , and more Fero -- has the potential to be highly unstable, reactive , especially to the unsuspecting person wanting a pet that can negotiate the normalcy of life without incident. Management and understanding needed by who ever takes a pup from that combination. This is an example of a person going by names and titles without UNDERSTANDING what the name , the dog , on the pedigree will contribute to the next generation. That is my opinion on that one . 
You can't just through names together no matter how good they are . That pedigree, by the way, was from someone who is producing primarily for pet . I would much rather direct the person to a good american bred dog , or even a good show line german dog -- from a good breeder -- we have both on this forum.

Dainerra said Herding people breeding for dogs that will move sheep.

xx the herding aspect is very important to the GSD and must be maintained and understood. It is complex behaviour . The grip, the biddability, the versatility , the ruggedness , the self confidence, the initiative and responsibilty and controlling attitude come from herding group , the ancestral genes . The GSD had has a roller coaster ride in ups and downs with issues of temperament , becoming too shy, fearful , reactive and each time , even in von Stephanitz' day the solid temperament was restored by going back into the gene pool from working herding dogs. Herding in the GSD is a breed specific character . It is not like border collies . It is NOT moving sheep . Any dog , excited with the prospect of chase - and that is almost every dog with breath in his body, will chase. Speaking with people , including Ellen Nicklesberg , German Shepherd Herding, Herr Baumann, and one of the very few remaining wanderschaferei in Germany, and others with commissions to groom forest areas with grazing animals will tell you that the drive is present from birth and it is not chase. Behaviours seen on the HIC tests have no interest to them , nor is that the style of herding for this breed.

Dainerra also said " The breeder has bred dogs for generations that are great agility/obedience prospects. But maybe they were so focused on that they let the hips slide"

xx let me say here before I proceed that I am not picking on Dainerra - just that they have provided some excellent points - so thanks for that - 
A breeder who has been ensuring that they have agility and obedience -- both essential in herding by the way -- can not let hips slide - that would disable the dog greatly from being agile or mobile . 

and " There are breeders out there who pride themselves on producing a GSD that would never bite. " I would put myself right in that category. I am proud that my dogs have stability . They don't go around biting , not the public , not their handlers -- ONLY when needed and then it is real. Such is the character of the south western German herding group , Wurtemberger . Bernd Lierberg being a source for those lines .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Where are the show line breeders to go, if they want to add fresh blood? If you were to outcross to working lines, which working lines? If there are absolutely no show lines left that are not saturated with Canto and Quanto, do forward-thinking breeders just continue on with a limited gene pool and hope for the best? I can't imagine that this strategy can hold up over time.


That is the million $$$ question. All "purebreds" are under potential for collapse .
This has been a topic for the last 15 years Canine Diversity Homepage . The canine genome indicates genetic group families from which we can borrow to open up a breed without loosing breed specific characters.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

carmen, don't think you're picking on me 

I just wanted to say that when I said "a dog that would never bite" I meant that a dog that would NOT bite. Couldn't get the dog to bite a bad guy if you coated him in peanut butter and threw him naked into the dog kennel. They consider Sch training to be the worst thing ever. So, I wasn't meaning they wanted a stable temperament for a GSD, but a temperament that you would expect from a lab or a golden.

When I mean moving sheep, I am again talking about breeders who breed to the exclusion of all else. I've seen dogs (not all GSDs) that are so focused on the sheep that they will ignore all else, including their handler. You practically have to drag them away from the livestock with a tractor. The dogs have no control because as soon as they see stock, they tune out everything else on the planet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you got me laughing -- imaging naked guy covered in peanut butter -- watch out for the nuts .
your example of the herding dog is a dog locked in prey , that is not a valuable herding dog at all -- they must have a fine communication relationship with the handler at all times. That is one of the reasons I don't like the HIC tests . It is not herding .

Carmen


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Where are the show line breeders to go, if they want to add fresh blood? If you were to outcross to working lines, which working lines? If there are absolutely no show lines left that are not saturated with Canto and Quanto, do forward-thinking breeders just continue on with a limited gene pool and hope for the best? I can't imagine that this strategy can hold up over time.


I just used it as an example. When bring the same dog too many times into a pedigree cause what you now see in the WGSL. Yes as Carmen has stated it is the Million dollar question.

I see this happening in WGWL too here in the U.S.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> your example of the herding dog is a dog locked in prey , that is not a valuable herding dog at all -- they must have a fine communication relationship with the handler at all times. That is one of the reasons I don't like the HIC tests . It is not herding .
> Carmen


I've always wondered about this, a dog goes into a little pen with three sheep that are constantly used for this. 
When the "shepherd" has a pole or broom to keep the dog from biting, I don't see this as herding at all. Then the dog gets a HIT certificate?
I'd rather get my dog out in a pasture with a flock and see how the herding/tending goes instinctively. Two of my dogs have natural herding instincts, but I don't know that they wouldn't harm sheep if they had the chance to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The HIT is just to test whether the judge/trainer feels the dog is trainable or not. You'd be surprised how many shepherds (and other herding breeds) are terrified of sheep or just stand there doing nothing (no instinct or drive). Of my dogs, Nikon is the best but also comes from herding lines so that's no surprise. Tending with a large flock is ideal but there's only a handful of people that do that in the USA. You actually can see a lot about the dog's instinct in the pen, if you/the judge knows what they are looking for. For example, what Nikon does that my other dogs are not as good at is moves equally well in both directions, he will naturally "turn on a dime" (on his hock) in a fluid motion when the shepherd moves his/her shoulder (no commands or training), maintains obedience while in drive, settle into a nice gait while working (this is where nice gaiting actually matters!), seems to "get" the concept of keeping sheep together with the shepherd in the middle, rather than just driving in and trying to pick out a sheep to chase. Kenya was better at predicting the movement of sheep (judge called it "heady") but not assertive enough and less drive than Nikon. A herding trainer/judge in CA has pressured me to train him but it's hard to find decent places and I refused to send dogs away for training. One of the best tests I ever observed was a Doberman. That dog tested better than some trained/titled dogs I've seen.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> carmen, don't think you're picking on me
> 
> I just wanted to say that when I said "a dog that would never bite" I meant that a dog that would NOT bite. Couldn't get the dog to bite a bad guy if you coated him in peanut butter and threw him naked into the dog kennel


Yes Lila you do have a way with words:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

NarysDad said:


> Yes Lila you do have a way with words:laugh::laugh::laugh:


hey, you come into my house covered in peanut butter and you won't make it out alive


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I think people are just jaded about *what really makes a dog the "best"* at something in the first place.





carmspack said:


> the herding aspect is very important to the GSD and must be maintained and understood. It is complex behaviour . The grip, the biddability, the versatility , the ruggedness , the self confidence, the initiative and responsibilty and controlling attitude come from herding group , the ancestral genes . The GSD had has a roller coaster ride in ups and downs with issues of temperament , becoming too shy, fearful , reactive and each time , even in von Stephanitz' day the solid temperament was restored by going back into the gene pool from working herding dogs. Herding in the GSD is a breed specific character . It is not like border collies . *It is NOT moving sheep* . Any dog , excited with the prospect of chase - and that is almost every dog with breath in his body, will chase.
> ...
> 
> the drive is present from birth and it is not chase. Behaviours seen on the HIC tests have no interest to them , *nor is that the style of herding for this breed.*


These threads really confuse me. I get it that the GSD is intended to be an all around dog, stable, capable of many diverse things. I get it that breeders should be breeding for this diversity in skill- or to put it a different way- the aptitude in utility. But being able to do MANY things does not make you the BEST at things... Kind of like the saying- I'm a jack of all trades, master of none.

Would you guys who know WAY more about the GSD than I do make such a claim that the GSD was not intended to be the best at anything? (Other than perhaps saying he's the best at utility.)

Perhaps a side note, Carmen- feel free to respond via PM- would you say that a "proper bred" or "as intended" GSD is quite deficient in the world of agility since he herds in a way that is not at all similar to a Border Collie? That is- the Border Collie is bred to MOVE the sheep while a GSD chooses to keep the sheep from moving.

And I never really know how to take this kind of a thread, to be honest... I mean- I LOVE agility, and I LOVE GSDs. I want to have an awesome GSD who does awesome at agility. Threads like this make me think that perspective is almost an injustice to the GSD. Getting a GSD that would be "awesome" or the "best" at agility would likely put it in that sport dog category where the dog is overly flashy, overly drivey. So I guess I don't know what to make of threads like this...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wildo:

I don't understand your question. We actually had a Great Dane in the agility group we go to. 
The owners love Great Danes and they love agility but there was absolutely no chance that the Dane was going to keep up with either a Border Collie or a GSD. He had to crawl through the tunnels very slowly but was probably as good as his size would allow.
On any given day a GSD might beat a Border Collie but most of the time the Border Collies are just too fast, smaller, more agile than a GSD.

I don't really understand about BC's and GSD's herding differences.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think that is a fair statement. The GSD is meant to be a working dog, not a specialist. He can be given any job under the sun and perform it well. In that manner, he can never be without a purpose, part of what Max was thinking when he introduced the dog to police work when he saw that herding was on the decline.

A GSD can be awesome at agilty. A GSD can be awesome at police work. He can even be taught to retrieve game in the field. He can guard property or flocks. He can be a loving friend or a fearsome foe.

Individual dogs will, of course, excel at different things. One might be the best herder ever born. Another might be the best at agility. But, that is the glory of being a "Jack of all trades" you can take a shepherd and teach him to be great at anything you choose.

I would be interested in the answer to the agility question. I'm not sure that herding style would affect agility performance? I know that the speed of border collies is hard to beat by any dog, but don't think it is related to their herding style?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I guess what I'm saying is that often in these threads about what is going wrong with the GSD, "sport dogs" are always mentioned. Personally, I think even if you don't have any experience with a "sport dog," we all know what that means. Flashy. Fast. Crazy awesome. Impeccable at its one thing. And I would agree (even with my lack of experience) that these "sport dogs" are probably monsters to live with. They were bred for a specific purpose, which _likely_ means that other balance issues could be prevalent.

So my point is that if I wanted a GSD who is flashy, fast, crazy awesome, and impeccable at agility- that might be a disservice to "all that a GSD could be." If those are the traits I'm looking for, perhaps a Border Collie should be my breed of choice.

And that's why I have a hard time with these threads. My breed of choice is the GSD. So does that mean that the "type" of GSD I'm looking for isn't really a good representation of the GSD? If so- then I most certainly am doing a disservice to the breed.

And I don't mean to make this about agility. Sub in whatever your sport of choice- but try to pick one that is dominated by a breed other than GSDs (Dock Diving might be a good example). Carmen's comment about the herding differences between the GSD and BC just got me thinking. That's why I noted it was probably a side question. I know very little indeed about herding, so perhaps the differences in how a BC herds compared to a GSD is irrelevant.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wildo said:


> So my point is that if I wanted a GSD who is flashy, fast, crazy awesome, and impeccable at agility- that might be a disservice to "all that a GSD could be." If those are the traits I'm looking for, perhaps a Border Collie should be my breed of choice.


You could find one of the above type GSD's for your purpose but the thread is about breeding.

So those who want to bring back the temperament and stability that was there long ago are discussing that. In other words breeding stock.

If you are not a breeder and want speed and flash then you can surely find it.

My dog Jack and my pup Zena are not going to add or detract from the breed because they will never be bred.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

My question is just as much about breeding... Breeding for sport, to be specific.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wildo, my statement was not meant to say the GSD cannot be the winner at anything. In fact I don't agree with the "jack of all trades, master of none" statement regarding the GSD. I think the GSD is capable of being the best herding/tending dog, best SAR dog, best police dog, best SchH dog, and best agility dog. But, take SchH for example, the GSD should be the best because it has the necessary traits, instinctively in its genes, not because it can be bred for extreme prey drive and worked in a neurotic state for a ball, that sort of thing. Some GSDs I see today remind me of extreme caricatures of GSDs, but they are real and people obsess over them and want *that* to get on the podium and have a dog that heels around like a circus animal for anyone who pops a ball in their armpit.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

When I got Benny I knew nothing about pedigrees and had never been on forums. 

I went to a breeder whose that had titles in herding. schutzhund, obedience, agility, companion, therapy dogs. She is a breeder that often combines WGSL with WL, trying to produce a moderate all around dog. She has been breeding for over 20 years. I saw both Benny's sire and Dam, They were approachable and not extreme in appearance. They were not titled, but there sires and dams on both sides have various titles. (She now lives alone and has no help, so taking care of the dogs leaves her no time to title them)

I socialized Benny home as an 8 week old pup, socialized him by bringing him to work where he is around lots of kids and teens, to Assisted living when I visited my mom. I trained him with clickers as a pup and with the help of good trainer added aversive when he got to be a teenager.
Despite all this Benny is reactive and I am wondering if it is genetic? Pedigree below signature
For example; Benny was asleep on the floor in the bedroom and my 24 year old son came in, didn’t see him and started to step on him. In a flash Benny growled , lunged, nipped and pinned my son against the bathroom sink. He then realized who it was and what he was doing and stopped. If my son was a small child and not a strong man serious harm could have been done
Today I took Benny to visit my mom in the Assisted Living. Benny was laying calmly when a very frail elderly woman came to him very slowly intending to bend down and pet him. I knew from Benny’s look that she had aroused suspicion in him and he was going to react. I stopped him, just as he barked and moved toward her (which I know was too late). I took him to the car and will not be taking him there again.
Benny he cannot tell a threat from a non threat, acts first and thinks later and I don’t know if our continued training will change this
I love him and will focus on the things we can do such a off leash hikes, swimming and agility. Benny did very well on two herding tests, but that is not practical
I am planning to get another pup and really want one that will not have this reactivity; We have a schutzhund club that has been recommended that I would like to try. I really want a dog who can do it all, but he does not have to do it all perfectly and be healthy.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thank you Liesje- that was very clarifying for me. I can see now where you all are coming from.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Wildo: 

I don't think the sport GSD's or show line GSD's are going away in any of our lifetimes. The public wants what they want. If there is a market for sport dogs and I believe there will be forever then we will have them.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

wildo said:


> Sub in whatever your sport of choice- but try to pick one that is dominated by a breed other than GSDs


What sports are dominated by GSD's other than Schutzhund?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wildo said:


> ... I mean- I LOVE agility, and I LOVE GSDs. I want to have an awesome GSD who does awesome at agility. Threads like this make me think that perspective is almost an injustice to the GSD. Getting a GSD that would be "awesome" or the "best" at agility would likely put it in that sport dog category where the dog is overly flashy, overly drivey.


While a GSD will probably never perform as well as a Border Collie in Agility, there is no reason a GSD can't excel, and there's nothing wrong with that, IMO. Just don't start breeding GSDs to be the ultimate Agility dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Perfectly said "just don't start breeding GSDs to be the ultimate Agility dog." (competition) DO breed the dog to be athletic and agile , very useful in herding and policing .
So to mr Wildo who said " Perhaps a side note, Carmen- feel free to respond via PM- would you say that a "proper bred" or "as intended" GSD is quite deficient in the world of agility since he herds in a way that is not at all similar to a Border Collie? That is- the Border Collie is bred to MOVE the sheep while a GSD chooses to keep the sheep from moving"

My comment was in regard to the herding instinct tests where a dog is introduced , excited and wanting to chase, and panicked sheep who are flighty and run -- the sheep are moved but it is not herding where the dog patrols up and down up and down containing them allowing the sheep to graze peacefully . Of course they are moved from location to location and the sheep are kept in order . Border collies work in a totally different environment with sheep spread out , different types of sheep - different sheep attitudes (flighty) not the ready to confront . Here is an issue regarding a heritage breed of sheep (dual purpose) if anybody (Ontarians) want to contribute Wholearth Farmstudio - Heritage Tamworth pork, Shropshire lamb and heritage poultry. Join Chefs, Farmers, Artists, Eaters & Authors for our local agriCULTURE farm food events re-- Shropshire sheep Peterborough farm . Stop The Slaughter of the heritage Shropshire sheep!! - Kawartha Lakes Livestock For Sale - Kijiji Kawartha Lakes

Herding style and being a good competitive agility dog have nothing to do with each other . Yes a GSD can be a good agility dog -- balanced conformation, tight lean body (athletic build) , ability to take directions very important . I had a dog that went to Langmaid the pro sled dog racer (Iditaord and Yukon Quest) . "Buster" went on every training session and kept up with the sled dogs , right up at the top , in distance and speed . 
I shared pictures and comments about a female of mine where the owner plays hockey and bikes to keep in condition , and the dog outruns his fastest speed on the bike , lasts the duration . 
Ring sport with the pallisades and open pit broad jumps and decoy esquives require power and flexibility . 
You should not have difficulty finding a good GSD for agility.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I learned a lot from my 1 dogs that I trained and titled, showed and koer'd. He was (and still is, although he has been gone) my heart dog. 

I got him from a breeder that claimed strong experience in SCH, but in reality was only 1 dog to a sch1 in early 90's and none since then. My dog was and still is the one dog from her kennel with sch titles and koers. My mentor at that time was Randy Tyson and she was also the best breeder support, even though the dog did not come from her. At that club, we got exposure to all the police classes, on going training, people in club that did AKC UDX, agility, etc. When in Europe, I got to go with the contact to eval young dogs for police.

Going through that really helped in defining what breeding was, is and a focus.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> What sports are dominated by GSD's other than Schutzhund?


HGH? 

Seriously, with the merge of SchH and IPO... even that one is lost.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I wanted to clarify what I was thinking when I said the gsd is a Djack of all trades". Of course some dogs are going to excellent at agilty while another individual might be the best sch dog ever. But, as a whole, you should be able to take any GSD and give him any job and he will be able to perform. Perhaps not as good as a dog bred specially for that purpose, but more than adequetly.
I'll use hunting as an example. You could train any GSD to be a bird dog. Would he be as good as a lab at retrieving birds? Or as good at scenting as a pointer? Perhaps not, but he can get the job done.

A GSD should be able to do anything from the SCH field to the obedience ring to herding to ??? 
That is what a good GSD means to me - balanced in drive, stable temperament, good conformation, and above average intelligence.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Smithie86 said:


> I learned a lot from my 1 dogs that I trained and titled, showed and koer'd. He was (and still is, although he has been gone) my heart dog.


 Think I know the dog you are speaking of Sue. His dam is my Benny's great grandmother.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Smithie86 said:


> I learned a lot from my 1st dog that I trained and titled, showed and koer'd. He was (and still is, although he has been gone) my heart dog.
> 
> I got him from a breeder that claimed strong experience in SCH, but in reality was only 1 dog to a sch1 in early 90's and none since then. My dog was and still is the one dog from her kennel with sch titles and koers. My mentor at that time was Randy Tyson and she was also the best breeder support, even though the dog did not come from her. At that club, we got exposure to all the police classes, on going training, people in club that did AKC UDX, agility, etc. When in Europe, I got to go with the contact to eval young dogs for police.
> 
> Going through that really helped in defining what breeding was, is and a focus.


Meant to say 1st.... Long day.


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