# Can other dogs be a bad influence?



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I know that sounds like such a parent thing to say!

But I was wondering - is that a possibility? Do they learn bad behaviors from older dogs? Or do you find in puppy classes there are some pups you just kind of steer yours away from? (And hope your puppy isn't that one pup for other owners?  )

We don't know many people with dogs, but I'm hoping to avoid "play dates" with one dog in particular. He's a nice dog but exhibits some key "bad" behaviors I specifically plan to either try to avoid (train puppy that the RIGHT thing to do is the exact opposite) or would be curbing fast if she picked them up. I don't plan to even let them meet until she's older and I've laid a good foundation with training.

Or am I thinking about this but it's actually nothing?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Honestly, the base temperament is the base temperament. My male was exposed to reactive dogs and aggressive dogs growing up, and was not affected whatsoever. 

I personally think avoiding badly behaved dogs is a good idea, and I think in terms of "learning bad behaviours" from other dogs can occur in terms of puppies learning how to play with other dogs, social skills, and some manners in the home can be learned from other dogs. Exposing your dog to a "bad dog" occasionally shouldn't affect them. But yes, generally speaking, they can "learn" bad behaviours or ill manners from other dogs... I think it depends entirely on the behaviour along with the dog's base genetic temperament.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

They Absolutely Do! Keep your puppy around stable dogs that can teach him body language. Do Not have him around reactive dogs or high anxiety dogs.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I'll take a stab at it although I'm honestly not that experienced...

Yes, I do think other dogs can be a bad influence. For example, when I take both my dogs out at the same time for a walk, and they see another dog, if one of my dogs bark the other will start to bark as well. I guess it's known as 'pack mentality'. They sort of feed off of each others energy and become more bold as a team. When I take them out individually I am more able to control their behavior...

Helps a bit...?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I do think dogs are capable of a lot more imitative learning than we sometimes give them credit for.

My last foster dog started teaching herself to go up the stairs backwards after watching Crookytail do it (and get cookies for it). By the third or fourth time she saw him doing it, she was orienting herself on the stairs in the start position. By the sixth or seventh exposure she was capable of imitating half-steps backwards and was occasionally doing complete steps, although I don't think she had the hind-end coordination or core muscle strength to finish the behavior (her previous owner gave the dogs no exercise at all, so this foster dog came to me with basically zero strength or stamina and she just wasn't capable of hoisting her back legs up consistently).

Anyway, if a dog can learn that level of strange and artificial behavior via imitation, I am dead certain they can learn things like barking at squirrels through windows or jumping on their owners for attention, so yes, I'm sure there are dogs who can be "bad influences" on others.

On the flipside, though, maybe your dog can be a good influence on someone else's. 

edit: here's a video of the foster dog teaching herself the stairs thing. Without having seen the full context of her behavior developing over time, I don't know if it's as remarkable as it appears/-ed to me, but hopefully it's enough to see what I'm talking about. The main thing is that I never tried to teach her any of this; it is purely self-directed learning that I then gave her cookies for because it made me laugh.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I think you are on the right track. I like my dogs around stable dogs as opposed to fearful or highly anxious dogs - I too tend to avoid them. Dogs in general don't like instability and will either avoid them or worse pick on them/attack them. Look at dogs in the wild, if there is a weak or unstable dog - it is eliminated from the pack.

Also I think if your dog has a little bit of fear or anxiety, whether born from a bad experience or medical issue, then being around highly fearful/anxious dogs may bring it out even more in your dog. Much better to socialise with stable dogs - they are the best.

On another note, if you have an anxious/fearful dog, the best thing for them is to be around stable dogs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> They Absolutely Do! Keep your puppy around stable dogs that can teach him body language. Do Not have him around reactive dogs or high anxiety dogs.


I don't know that this dog is reactive? But he urinates when he's too excited. And he has never been trained to greet people quietly as opposed to jumping all over them. In fact, this dog is the reason I had a hard time selling a GSD to my husband; he was worried that larger dogs were generally too excitable for him.

The other issue is that I'm not sure what the owners are doing for training. The last time I saw him and he jumped up, I brought my knee up to meet his chest. He backed right off and waited for me to greet him. The owner said, "Oh...that's a good idea!" *facepalm*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have two females that aren't the greatest in temperament(reactive and dog aggressive). I brought home a male puppy and their behaviors did not rub off on him at all. He's very neutral to other dogs, and doesn't show any nervy quirks like they have. 
I think it depends on the dog, how the dog is raised and the genetics are the major factor.

I'm not a fan of kneeing a dog for jumping, especially when done by a guest in my home(not that my dogs jump on guests)
It could do major damage and there are other ways to train out/manage jumping up.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I'm not a fan of kneeing a dog for jumping, especially when done by a guest in my home(not that my dogs jump on guests)
> It could do major damage and there are other ways to train out/manage jumping up.


I didn't know it could do damage. It was something I was taught when I was a child. I don't stick my knee out to jab him, just bring it upward so he hits my knee instead of knocking into my midsection. I also feel that if they aren't going to teach him what TO do, I am within my rights to discourage him.

Physically I am not big, so I would rather not have a large dog jumping on me. I wouldn't ever do this to a puppy. This dog is full grown so I don't feel bad about it.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Instead of kneeing, how about training a different _desirable_ behavior? In other words, replace the bad behavior with a good one (e.g., sit to greet you and get pet). Show up at the door with a few treats in your pocket, and when the dog runs toward you, ask it to sit, then give it a treat. 

The kneeing technique is _very _old school. You can do much better by engaging the dog with a replacement behavior that gets the dog what it wants (your attention) without risk of hurting it, or yourself. Another short term fix that works wonders is to simply turn, let the dog hit your side, then side step and claim the ground its back feet are standing on. It will jump off and scamper away and come at you from another angle to jump again, and again you just calmly, quietly take a small step and claim the ground. It's all just little steps without any noise, very calmly simply occupying each space from which the dog jumps. Each time the dog has to give up the ground to you, which isn't fun. Most dogs give up this game very quickly, as it's not rewarding -- esp. if you offer them a better game that is (e.g., sit for a treat).


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Instead of kneeing, how about training a different _desirable_ behavior? In other words, replace the bad behavior with a good one (e.g., sit to greet you and get pet).
> 
> The kneeing technique is _very _old school. You can do much better by engaging the dog with a replacement behavior that gets the dog what it wants (your attention) without risk of hurting it, or yourself. Another short term fix that works wonders is to simply turn, let the dog hit your side, then side step and claim the ground its back feet are standing on. It will jump off and scamper away and come at your from another angle, and again claim the ground. All just little steps without any noise, very calmly just occupying each space from which the dog jumps. Each time the dog has to give up the ground to you, which isn't fun. Most dogs give up this game very quickly, as it's not rewarding -- esp. if you offer them a better game that is (e.g., sit for a treat).


Well, it isn't my dog, so I don't get to train him or offer a better game. Short term only. And he weighs enough that I don't really feel bad about the kneeing. If I thought I could turn to the side and keep my center of gravity stable enough that he wouldn't knock me over, I'd try that. Like I said, I'm not large.

I plan to teach my dog what TO do, but I don't get that kind of control with this dog who isn't mine. I can choose what part of my body I'm okay with him launching into.

Needless to say I don't go over there often.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Just to be very clear:

The jumping dog is not my dog.

He's large and I am not.

I don't get to train him because he isn't my dog.

The owners unfortunately also aren't teaching him what TO do.

I don't think I want my puppy around this dog.


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Instead of kneeing, how about training a different _desirable_ behavior? In other words, replace the bad behavior with a good one (e.g., sit to greet you and get pet). Show up at the door with a few treats in your pocket, and when the dog runs toward you, ask it to sit, then give it a treat.
> 
> The kneeing technique is _very _old school. You can do much better by engaging the dog with a replacement behavior that gets the dog what it wants (your attention) without risk of hurting it, or yourself. Another short term fix that works wonders is to simply turn, let the dog hit your side, then side step and claim the ground its back feet are standing on. It will jump off and scamper away and come at you from another angle to jump again, and again you just calmly, quietly take a small step and claim the ground. It's all just little steps without any noise, very calmly simply occupying each space from which the dog jumps. Each time the dog has to give up the ground to you, which isn't fun. Most dogs give up this game very quickly, as it's not rewarding -- esp. if you offer them a better game that is (e.g., sit for a treat).


That's pretty much what I do for jumping and it works. If my dog jumps on me, I turn to the side and then step back, tell her "down" as I am doing it, and then make her sit-stay. When she gets down and sits still for a few seconds, I praise her for doing that. It has worked really well for me, my dog isn't a big jumper.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sansa's Mom said:


> That's pretty much what I do for jumping and it works. If my dog jumps on me, I turn to the side and then step back, tell her "down" as I am doing it, and then make her sit-stay. When she gets down and sits still for a few seconds, I praise her for doing that. It has worked really well for me, my dog isn't a big jumper.


I definitely plan to use this if my dog tries jumping as an adult. For a puppy I'm planning on teaching her by keeping her on leash at first and working on a sit when the visitor enters. If possible I'd like to start off showing her what I want from her instead of waiting for her to develop behaviors I don't want.

For my friend's dog...I don't feel that I can tell him how to train. He verbally reprimands the dog sometimes but doesn't do anything consistent to actually deter him from jumping. So effectively, he isn't doing anything.

I don't really need to have a very large dog jumping on me and potentially damaging clothing or knocking me over. I'm at peace with using the knee method rather than risking my uprightness and my clothing by turning to the side. I kind of think the owner forfeits the right to object if he is unwilling to research training methods to teach his dog manners!

But the tips are great and I'll file them away for use with my own dog (over whose training I will have control!).


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## Sansa's Mom (Dec 10, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> I definitely plan to use this if my dog tries jumping as an adult. For a puppy I'm planning on teaching her by keeping her on leash at first and working on a sit when the visitor enters. If possible I'd like to start off showing her what I want from her instead of waiting for her to develop behaviors I don't want.
> 
> For my friend's dog...I don't feel that I can tell him how to train. He verbally reprimands the dog sometimes but doesn't do anything consistent to actually deter him from jumping. So effectively, he isn't doing anything.
> 
> ...


I think your strategy of having your dog sit when a visitor enters is a great idea, I also agree that it would be out of line to offer unsolicited training advice to your friend. Even if you do use the proper techniques on the other dog, it probably won't stick if you are the only one doing it. I do believe dogs can be a bad influence on each other so I would limit their interaction as much as possible. 

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## helensdisturbed (Nov 9, 2013)

I think that your dogs base behaviour is all that matters. My 12 week old bitch attends training classes and all the other puppies are a bit naughty, jumping up, barking, running off , the works. But, they are medium to small breeds, I cannot afford to let her behave like that as she's getting bigger now. Luckily, she is very calm and easy to train, and not overly interested in other dogs , she will have a play and a sniff but she will always return to me when called. I feel a bit guilty as she's really good, the others are nuts! Her mum and dad were very calm so surely this behaviour must be inherited?. 


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

They absolutely do learn from each other and the best dog to expose your puppy to is a few STABLE adult dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I believe they do. A good example is my golden retriever puppy that now plays like he is a GSD. But he has also learned his sits and downs by watching them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

helensdisturbed said:


> I think that your dogs base behaviour is all that matters. My 12 week old bitch attends training classes and all the other puppies are a bit naughty, jumping up, barking, running off , the works. But, they are medium to small breeds, I cannot afford to let her behave like that as she's getting bigger now. Luckily, she is very calm and easy to train, and not overly interested in other dogs , she will have a play and a sniff but she will always return to me when called. I feel a bit guilty as she's really good, the others are nuts! Her mum and dad were very calm so surely this behaviour must be inherited?.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She is only 12 weeks old, I got my female at that age and she was just like that...then she came out of her shell


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A few play dates will not teach your dog those bad behaviors. Spending a few hours a week with a dog like that will not teach your dog that what it does is alright. Thinks like reactivity, submissive/excitement urinating, are also not passed on from dog to dog.

If your pup were to live with this type of dog, it would tend to pick up that behavior because if you didn't teach it to your older dog...you probably aren't going to teach it to your younger dog. It's going to take a lot of time spent with a dog in order for a younger dog to pick up on the "trainable" bad habits. The flat out temperament issues...probably won't get picked up.

Your friends dog sounds stable...it just hasn't been trained. It's not a dangerous dog and is unlikely to hurt your puppy during play/interaction. There is no reason to avoid this dog just because it hasn't had the training YOU believe it should have. By that standard, my dog wouldn't be able to hang out with 95% of dogs out there.

OP...open your mind to other training methods. Just because that's what you were taught when you were young, doesn't make it right. I find that the most effective way to train a dog to not jump is to catch its front paws and not let go until the dog sits or lays down because it's "given up" the fight. Dogs don't like to be restrained, so it will learn that if I jump up...I won't have the freedom and so jumping has a negative consequence. It took like 5 greetings for my dog to catch the drift and he has never jumped again. Some people do this technique but also kick the dog's legs out from under them...but that can cause damage to the dog's legs or hips when they fall on them. I wouldn't recommend doing that.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> A few play dates will not teach your dog those bad behaviors. Spending a few hours a week with a dog like that will not teach your dog that what it does is alright. Thinks like reactivity, submissive/excitement urinating, are also not passed on from dog to dog.
> 
> If your pup were to live with this type of dog, it would tend to pick up that behavior because if you didn't teach it to your older dog...you probably aren't going to teach it to your younger dog. It's going to take a lot of time spent with a dog in order for a younger dog to pick up on the "trainable" bad habits. The flat out temperament issues...probably won't get picked up.
> 
> ...


I will be totally honest: I am not going to change what I do with this dog. This works for me. I don't get knocked over and the dog's claws don't snag my clothing or whatnot. We will have to agree to disagree there! 

It's good to hear your perspective on what does work. Thanks for your response! I'll certainly keep it in mind.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> They absolutely do learn from each other and the best dog to expose your puppy to is a few STABLE adult dogs.


This is sooo true! My GSD was 3 when I brought home my Lacy puppy. My GSD is a stable, solid, quiet dog. My Lacy is a crack puppy. However, he is solid as a rock with OB commands and especially recall. Truly, because when I asked my GSD for a behavior and rewarded, my Lacy learned what behavior would provide rewards. Recall is 100%, he never learned he could fail a recall.


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## helensdisturbed (Nov 9, 2013)

llombardo said:


> She is only 12 weeks old, I got my female at that age and she was just like that...then she came out of her shell


Noooooo!!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sansa's Mom said:


> If my dog jumps on me, I turn to the side and then step back, tell her "down" as I am doing it, and then make her sit-stay.


I hope you have a different command for laying down on the floor/ground? I like to use "off" as my no jumping command, which is also applicable for getting off furniture, or taking paws off countertops or the other dog, since I use "down" for laying down.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

in "How Dogs Think" they cite several experiments of pups learning different behaviors by observing dogs and humans.

In one experiment, dogs learned the names of different toys simply by watching humans handle the object. People handed the toy back and forth commenting "Look at the hammer" "that is a nice hammer" "would you like the hammer back" "yes thank you for the hammer" and so on while the dog watched. The dog was taken into another room and shown a selection of toys and asked to "find the hammer" The dog recognized the correct object after only one episode of watching the humans with a toy hammer.

Dogs also can learn to solve mazes or puzzles by watching humans. 
Puppies who watched their dam perform search patterns while they were younger performed as good on evaluations as dogs who had been in training for several months.

There are several different studies that show that, yes, it is possible for a dog to be a bad influence on another dog. However, with careful socialization and training, I think that you could counteract the bad influence without any issue.


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