# Police Officer Accused of K9 Abuse



## zozocity

Hammond, Indiana police officer placed on administrative leave after viral video surfaces. 







Mayor McDermott Takes Immediate Action After Viral Video Surfaces | The Northwest Indiana Gazette

Thoughts & opinions? I found this on a reddit thread where a user says this is a common practice of "choking a dog off a ball" to help build drive. 2nd thread Can somebody elaborate/educate on this?


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## Baillif

Needs context


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## gsdsar

I agree. More context needed. From the bit I could see, the officer did not appear to be angry or out of control. The dog seemed to be happy in the end. 

Not that I liked seeing that, but I do know some dogs that refuse to out a ball, and I personally have lifted my dog off their front feet to get them to out. 

As for the leash hit, when I am tugging I use my legs and feet to push my dog around, could look like a kick to someone. It's not. But from a distance....

So I would need to understand the context before passing judgement. 


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## volcano

the dog is sitting still, the guy chokes it because it isnt doing platz or something. The guy recording video says the dog was pooping. Then he hits it lightly with his sap, then he continues choking it. Context??? How about he gets charged criminally, hows that for context.


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## David Winners

Dogs are often lifted or choked off a ball in training before they know the out.

This is an example of doing it all wrong.

The dog doesn't even need to have its legs lifted off the ground. The leash isn't used on a choker. You lift the dog once to take the air away and calmly hold it there until it releases the ball. You don't choke the dog for a bit, let it down, choke it again, let it down... that's horrible.

The flanking of the dog in and of itself is abuse. I would take his dog away and he would never work another dog a day in his life. I wonder where he learned this

I hope they burn this guy bad. IMO, this is definitely abuse.

David Winners


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## volcano

Was there a ball, and were they training? Police have to follow the same rules. If I went in front of the police station and hung my dog by its neck id be arrested. Im going to Hammond tomorrow, I hope I dont get pulled over by that "team"


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## David Winners

I'm all about seeing everything before passing judgement, but this is against the law. Any military handler found doing this without provocation, meaning the dog attacking them, would be court martialed.


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## bill

Really sad" makes me wonder who trained the cop! If he got the ball how would he get it back if he threw it? Do the same thing! Bad foundation on dog ! Cop should be fired! Bill

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## Baillif

I couldn't see anything clearly enough to tell if there was a ball or not. If that was all over a ball he's at worst abusive and at best an idiot.


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## bill

Agree Ballif

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## zozocity

My initial reaction was that this guy has no idea what he's doing and that the time/place was wholly inappropriate. Trying to be objective and hear opinions from experienced K9/military handlers like David. Looked like the officer was waiting around for his partner and decided to do a lackadaisical, careless little "training" session. The dog does seem fine after but that doesn't mean anything as he was clearly picked out for harder handling. The officer definitely throws something across the street after and I assume it was whatever the dog had in his mouth, whether it was a ball or other object.


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## sehrgutcsg

*Hhmm... nice narrator*

I could not see a ball. I watched only once and will not comment, because the elder's have had their say, before I saw the video. Had I seen the video, before 2 respected member's --- I might have made my opinion known. Watch the tail of the animal as they walk to the patrol car and then you can let me know if I am incorrect, and I may not be > ?


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## bill

Ball or not when he was hanging the dog was the problem" if he was being attacked it would be different! The dog was wagging his tail because he is a tuff " hard" dog! Still no excuse for hanging! IMO Bill

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## simba405

Officer was in a middle of a traffic stop. He wanted the dog to out ASAP. Maybe the dog just got rewarded for indicating drugs? 

Either way a dog shouldn't be out in the streets working if it won't even out a ball when asked. Really nice hard dog. Incompetent cop/training. 

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## bill

I want to add beating with the leash was also wrong! Bill

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## David Winners

The handler was getting his ball back. You can see him put it in his right front pocket.

If it was a real stop, he shouldn't have paid the dog anyhow, but that's another topic.

David Winners


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## David Winners

sehrgutcsg said:


> I could not see a ball. I watched only once and will not comment, because the elder's have had their say, before I saw the video. Had I seen the video, before 2 respected member's --- I might have made my opinion known. Watch the tail of the animal as they walk to the patrol car and then you can let me know if I am incorrect, and I may not be > ?


I'm not saying the dog didn't take it like a champ and rock on. That doesn't make it legal IMO.

David Winners


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## bill

He looks like with the right partner he would make a great dog good nerves " just needs retraining! Bill

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## Chip18

sehrgutcsg said:


> I could not see a ball. I watched only once and will not comment, because the elder's have had their say, before I saw the video. Had I seen the video, before 2 respected member's --- I might have made my opinion known. Watch the tail of the animal as they walk to the patrol car and then you can let me know if I am incorrect, and I may not be > ?


Ditto, I'm not shy in voicing an "opinion" but for this I'd need 1080p and a 60 inch screen.

So those who have "been there done that" carry weight with me!


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## puffswami

Those dogs typically cost around 10K after initial training as well. Stuff like this reminds me of all the things people used to get away with so matter-of-factly before the internet/cellphone cameras. Finally the power is shifting back to people.


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## SummerGSDLover

What does administrative leave mean exactly? Imo that handler needs to be fired. Or atleast never able to have another dog under his "training." This video is ridiculous and that police officer was being abusive. To just keep hanging the dog over and again was very wrong. And to hit the dog?! Why?!

*-*Summer*-*


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## misslesleedavis1

I bet be was all embarrassed when that video surfaced. Jeeze.

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## onyx'girl

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QlZZ3309lw


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## bill

What M.Ellis was talking about was holding the dog up too spit out the ball ! Not hanging him off the ground" putting him down" repeat" totally wrong! And hit with the leash! He should be fired!! Bill

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## onyx'girl

Yes, he was doing it WRONG...and should be charged with assaulting an officer.


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## bill

Agree!!!! Jane" just goes to show just because you do a job doesn't mean you know what you are doing! I have seen that many times" good cops and bad 
Sad!! Bill

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## Baillif

Hitting a dog with a leash is nothing. Leash won't damage the dog. A good part of that interaction was missed by the person taking the video. I've seen and heard of far worse things being done to dogs that don't out done by trainers that are world class. So honestly this video was super tame. I've seen dogs that were so drivey they had to be beaten on the muzzle with a stick to get them to out and then punished after for not outting.

Generally more refined and effective things can be done to out a dog, but I'm not going to judge the guy based on what I was able to make out. The fact that the dog wasn't even looking punished after all that is fairly indicative that this guy probably doesn't have an abusive relationship with his k9.


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## onyx'girl

Partners/team....I think the person video'ing it is anti-LEO anyway so was very happy to expose the handler.


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## bill

Yea he didn't mind the leash hits" I don't believe in hit with it! 
And as far as beating with a stick to gets dog to out then punishment" 
Never heard of using water if he can't breath he will out!Bill

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## sehrgutcsg

Must agree with post # 27. I am not all that appalled at what I saw. Outing a dog must "mean" what I call to; "drop the ball or release?"

Throw the dog to the ground, over a ball, tail between the legs, a very different story in my mind. I never needed to do this, but I don't have that type of dog.

One thing I will mention, though. The verbs in this particular video are pretty harsh, even though it does not bother me, the mods. here delete words much less harsh, so I would like some kind of reference point at what is acceptable and what is not, because "here" there is no clear picture of what's okay and what's not...


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## Blanketback

Whoever trained this handler should be criticized too, because what's happening in the video seems to be done in a matter-of-fact way, as though nothing is wrong and that's how they were taught. I'm sure bad training can happen with LEO K9's too, just like in everyday life?


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## Baillif

This is a very generalized statement but honestly bad training is probably the norm.


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## mycobraracr

Baillif said:


> Hitting a dog with a leash is nothing. Leash won't damage the dog. A good part of that interaction was missed by the person taking the video. I've seen and heard of far worse things being done to dogs that don't out done by trainers that are world class. So honestly this video was super tame. I've seen dogs that were so drivey they had to be beaten on the muzzle with a stick to get them to out and then punished after for not outting.
> 
> Generally more refined and effective things can be done to out a dog, but I'm not going to judge the guy based on what I was able to make out. The fact that the dog wasn't even looking punished after all that is fairly indicative that this guy probably doesn't have an abusive relationship with his k9.



This was my take on it as well.


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## llombardo

onyx'girl said:


> Partners/team....I think the person video'ing it is anti-LEO anyway so was very happy to expose the handler.


Since LEO's are in the public eye, they need to conduct themselves in such a way so that anyone that is anti-LEO doesn't have anything to use against them.


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## bill

Baillif question" when you were talking about the world class handlers beating the dog on the muzzle" then punishment for outing!
Why would they not use a e. Collar as you know my old self have never used one but looks like that is where it would be perfect! Bill

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## Gwenhwyfair

We've had threads about this in the past.

Police aren't training outs in some depts. There was arguing between people who have been or are currently working LEO K9 handlers/trainer. So it's not a settled matter even between professional LEO K9 handlers/trainers.

BUT It would follow that if they don't think training outs are necessary this is the sort of thing you're going to see. 

In some cases (like one near me recently when the K9 bit an officer and they used a break stick to get the dog off of a POLICE officer) and the other case in SC where they had to cut the pants off the suspect because the mali wouldn't out. They tried flanking and choking that dog out too.

I know police K9s don't need snappy competition OB on them but there's the other side of the coin and this is an example IMO.


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## bill

Not training out makes no sense to me! Every dog I have had would bite a person" out then rebite ! New gen. Way of thinking over my head" 
Please explain the reason behind this way of thinking!

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## Gwenhwyfair

Hi Bill,

There is a subforum for police K9s here on the board, scroll down it's towards the bottom of the board. There's been some threads where experienced handlers and trainers have commented on this. If you look at those threads they can give you a more in depth look at the arguments that surround this issue from both sides made by people who actually work with these dogs.

I personally know a retired police officer who feels that the trend amongst current police K9s and training is loosing balance. Balance between a dog that _can_ and has to handle 'real' situations vs control for the wellbeing of officers and innocents. 

Lou Castle has provided very interesting input on this topic in the past (speaking of e collar training).




bill said:


> Not training out makes no sense to me! Every dog I have had would bite a person" out then rebite ! New gen. Way of thinking over my head"
> Please explain the reason behind this way of thinking!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## bill

Thanks Gwenhwyfair!
Looks like I get to do some searching" this has my curiosity! Thanks again! Bill

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## robk

Nice hard dog. Would love to see him in action.


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## middleofnowhere

With the language and argument going on in the background (in the house of the person filming) I wonder about the prudence of the person who created the video choosing to post it.

Can't tell enough from the video of the action with the officer and the dog about what is going on.


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## mycobraracr

bill said:


> Not training out makes no sense to me! Every dog I have had would bite a person" out then rebite ! New gen. Way of thinking over my head"
> Please explain the reason behind this way of thinking!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Bill, I have been told that they don't train the out because if they tell the dog to out and it doesn't then then the LE agency is more at risk of a lawsuit. So if they don't tell the dog to out they can't get sued for it not outing.


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## Baillif

bill said:


> Baillif question" when you were talking about the world class handlers beating the dog on the muzzle" then punishment for outing!
> Why would they not use a e. Collar as you know my old self have never used one but looks like that is where it would be perfect! Bill
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


A dogtra on 127 just made the dog fight harder and get pissed. Pronging the dog off the bite just made it redirect on the handler. Ended up taking one good muzzle beating and two prong collars with people pulling in separate directions to punish the dog and make it condition to thinking going after the handler was not an option.


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## carmspack

there are still some real hard hard , stubborn hard, stubborn dogs around. Here of them in some of the Dutch and Belgian lines. Long ago Bungalow dogs would represent these genetics.
Some of the Malatesta dogs were like this . Lewis? 

That dog was like a terrier -- after the action off to the side he goes back to the cruiser , tail up at full mast and wagging away . That wasn't even a drop in the bucket for him. Lots of attitude on the dog.

It's hard to say what happened before the guy was caught . There may have been a scuffle , the dog gets pumped - his fight drive aroused . Not like schutzhund where he is allowed a bite . Got to get a handle on things .

Dog and handler might not be a good match.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yet the defense put forth for this in other threads was, if there's 'excessive force' used people can just go ahead and sue _anyways_. 




mycobraracr said:


> Bill, I have been told that they don't train the out because if they tell the dog to out and it doesn't then then the LE agency is more at risk of a lawsuit. So if they don't tell the dog to out they can't get sued for it not outing.


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## bill

Thanks cobra". Train hold boy! It means out lol. Crazy world bill

That is one crazy dog Baillif! Did they ever teach the out? Don't have a clue how strong the e. Collar was as I said never used one I have seen a dog repeatedly grab a electric fence! I know what that feels like.
Ever try using a water hose it works on some dogs. Thanks for reply Bill

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## onyx'girl

My whole take on it, the dog has probably saved that handlers life more than once. You treat a partner with respect. If this LEO is allowed to remain I hope he remembers that his dog is his partner. If the dog redirects on the handler, it says something about their relationship. And I know, the K9 is probably a nutjob, but the timing of the stringing obviously wasn't effective so he had to do it over and over...bad handler.


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## bill

Carmen guess I have been lucky" my dogs seem to have the genetic o.b. that you talk about! I am a trainer not a breeder like yourself! I know a lot about German shepherds" but not as much as you! 
I was taught they should have balance in drives" and willing too please.
What are your feelings on this other type of Shep? Thanks Bill

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## onyx'girl

comments on this fb page are in favor of the handler (coming from other LEO's) Wonder if the mayor will change his point of view? Or will the AR's add it to their agenda....
https://www.facebook.com/policeone/posts/10152434076354740


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## Gwenhwyfair

They usually are. That's part of the problem, *If* there is a problem with training (as your post previous to the below notes, rightly I think) they won't fix the problem because they don't want to recognize /admit *if* a problem exists.

It ends up either being about the potential of lawsuit which is cited both as a cause and solution in the past, or 'us against them' defensiveness.


round and round we go.....




onyx'girl said:


> comments on this fb page are in favor of the handler (coming from other LEO's) Wonder if the mayor will change his point of view? Or will the AR's add it to their agenda....
> https://www.facebook.com/policeone/posts/10152434076354740


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## onyx'girl

I read on another fb page that this dog possibly had a bag of narcotics, not a ball in his mouth. Not sure that is true, but I could understand the handlers actions if this is the truth...ingesting that would be a death sentence.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Some of the posts are interesting...on that policeone page. One person states dogs are trained to tolerate the pain, in support of the handler.

I can see that, to a point ,but I always thought hardness was mostly genetic.


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## bill

It is Gwen. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken crap!Bill
Eta looks like a matter of time before a lawyer sues for not teaching out! What do the handlers plan too do choke out every dog to out! Crazy hope a innocent never gets bit. Bill

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## mego

onyx'girl said:


> I read on another fb page that this dog possibly had a bag of narcotics, not a ball in his mouth. Not sure that is true, but I could understand the handlers actions if this is the truth...ingesting that would be a death sentence.


I saw that too but have no idea where they got that info


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## selzer

I don't know anything about k9 training as I haven't trained a k9. But what I saw there didn't make me feel concerned about the dog's welfare. It just didn't look all that bad to me. 

Heck, we used to hold my grandmother's dachshund up by the slipper it was biting. The strikes with the leash didn't look grievous. The dog did not seem choked out. And the officer really did not appear out of control.

And to bring it into perspective, the cop in Miami-Dade county that killed his dog by kicking it, well he got reinstated with full back pay. I think if LEOs seriously abuse their dogs, they should be fined and fired. But I think maybe a group of K9 trainers ought to make that determination, because they can see what the guy was trying to accomplish, and whether or not such a dog should seriously be effected by it. 

A lot of departments have limited budgets for their k9s, they use dogs that are not owned by the village/city/county/state. They train their own dogs. And some of their training may not be as progressive as some of us might want to see. I think you got to take all things into consideration.


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## David Winners

After watching the video on my computer, I see the leash hits are not that hard, but there is no reason for them. Hanging the dog like this is IMO wrong and abusive. There is no reason for it other than bad handling. Many detection dogs are choked off the ball, and that in itself isn't abusive IMO, it's just the way this handler was doing it in the video. 

Here's a couple pictures of me choking Fama off the ball before she would out reliably. Lots of control over the dog. No pinching of the neck skin by using the leash on the choker. I wouldn't normally do this with a choker, but rather a flat collar, but I didn't have one on her when the photographer stopped us for the photo shoot. It was an impromptu situation when he came across us in the break area.



















If the method in the video is how the handler was taught to out the dog, I suppose the responsibility for the abuse lies with the trainer and not the handler.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Some of the guys on that FB page say what the officer does with/to the dog is nothing compared to military handlers/trainers.....to justify.


SMH....i know I shouldn't read stuff posted there.


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## selzer

What is SMH?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Shake My Head.....(in dismay, sadness or disbelief and sometimes all of them)


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## selzer

Ok thanks, I was thinking, Some Military Handlers, but it just didn't seem like an acronym that would be common enough.


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## llombardo

I thought the dog had something in his mouth and the handler was trying to get him to drop it. I didn't think it was a ball, but I thought that the officer bent down and picked something up.


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## kakarot

I saw this on a friends FB page with her response like 'oh my god, this saddens me, he should be in the deepest of crap after what he did to that poor dog..'

but I wasn't shocked. I thought it was normal for a K-9 unit to be handled like that when need be. I watched it a couple of times more and it looks like he picks something up off the ground before walking back to the car and the dog acted like he wanted to keep playing. 

People are way too sensitive these days.

but I do agree with some of the posts. I don't think he needed to lift the dog up off the ground like that.. or use the leash to hit, but it looked more like a tap over an actual hit. Maybe he's a noob with having a K-9 or he's a noob with the technique, but overall I didn't think it was 'oh my god, dog abuse!!!' People need to calm it down and stop trying to put anything that isn't labeled as hugging, petting, or babying as animal abuse, I think. I've seen videos where wild life are hunting prey and people are commenting like 'they should shoot that lion! so mean to that poor -insert animal here that lions usually go for-' and I just sit there and face palm.

BUT YEAH.

Animal abuse? no.
Improper use of a technique? probably. most definitely. maybe. yes.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Agree with the above.....

But, I've got to say for some reason I find that video disturbing. They played it on the local news the other night. Same reaction, there's just something about it.

This is coming from someone who trains with a prong, who argues against banning ecollars and someone who has seen dogs choked out in training and NOT had the same reaction.

I'm not overly sensitive, I grew up on farm, I watched animals be slaughtered for food.

I can't put my finger on it. The only thing I can come up with is maybe even for someone who admittedly is not an expert trainer that officer's handling of the dog was so sloppy that even people who are NOT softies about these training techniques are bothered.

Further I'm sick and tired of Police officers making excuses. The supposed 'experts' on the policeone page are saying things that conflict with what I have learned from experts on this board and in person, including police officers I know personally.

IMO there are too many excuses on the part of some of these depts. and handlers (not all mind you) but IMO this department may well be getting a black eye it deserves and rather then making excuses and bullying people on a FB page they should work on better training! What those guys are saying, with excuse, after excuse, after excuse (like one guy said you can't train an out after a dog tastes 'blood', really?! ) 

What they are really saying is they can't train their dogs.


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## my boy diesel

*Animal abuse? no.
Improper use of a technique? probably. most definitely. maybe. yes.*
i agree


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## e.rigby

I think the reason it was disturbing, even though I too have seen dogs handled roughly in training and not batted an eye, was because the officers use of aversive techniques was sloppy and ineffective. It's one thing to watch a handler perform something aversive on a dog and have the dog respond (in a decent amount of time) but to see the dog repeatedly manhandled and nothing happen... that's the disturbing part. At least to me.


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## bill

Abuse


I agree 100% Gwen!
Big difference between correction and hanging completely off of the ground!
I am for punishment if needed too proof a known command!
David Winners showed the proper way! The only time that dog should have been completely off the ground
Would have been if he turned on the handler!
Bill

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## simba405

e.rigby said:


> I think the reason it was disturbing, even though I too have seen dogs handled roughly in training and not batted an eye, was because the officers use of aversive techniques was sloppy and ineffective. It's one thing to watch a handler perform something aversive on a dog and have the dog respond (in a decent amount of time) but to see the dog repeatedly manhandled and nothing happen... that's the disturbing part. At least to me.


Whole heartedly agree. Constantly hanging a dog to no effect is abuse. The officer seemed out of his league. Hanging didn't work so he weakly slapped the dog with the leash? Might as well have tried tickling him too. 

Either way great dog. Where can I get one of those?


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## carmspack

what a very very strange video. The juxtaposition of the entire thing, the calmness of the outside section with the arrest , compared to the man's in-house chaos.
Here is a successful apprehension , substance possibly found , the perp up against the car , calm, the officer security guard (different outfit) keeping watch, the k9 handler going off to the side to recover something in the dogs mouth , the dog going back to the cruiser with attitude --- officer drapes leash over shoulder and goes to the man arrested and slaps on the cuffs. The dog was not straining or pulling aggressively to the man - so we don't know where the control was lost.


Meanwhile in the house there is conflict and cussing and who knows what else . Buddy with the camera has window sash in portion of video away from action. 
It wasn't good handling -- in the situation though time is of the essence -- not an opportunity for a training session - he does have a suspect he needs to get back to. Who knows what the dog had in his mouth? Difficult to correct if the dog is wearing a wide flat collar . 
Need to go back for retraining , the team , dog and handler.
Looks to be a pretty tough , dog, may be pig-headed stubborn .
These are not poodles with bandanas . 
This comment I make because in schutzhund there are dogs with agitation collars, AND pinch collars , and e-collars on as tools to modify behaviour , particularly in bite work when the dog is over the top in excitement and does not want to out.

That said -- buddy with the camera , keep him away from the BSP, keep him away from schutzhund , he would probably faint if he saw stick work and the courage routine .
He would probably have issues with David's picture .

Having dogs in service , you also get stories back on what the bad guys are prepared to do to the dog, well you know some of the worst case outcomes .


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## Freestep

carmspack said:


> Need to go back for retraining , the team , dog and handler.
> Looks to be a pretty tough , dog, may be pig-headed stubborn .
> These are not poodles with bandanas .
> This comment I make because in schutzhund there are dogs with agitation collars, AND pinch collars , and e-collars on as tools to modify behaviour , particularly in bite work when the dog is over the top in excitement and does not want to out.
> 
> That said -- buddy with the camera , keep him away from the BSP, keep him away from schutzhund , he would probably faint if he saw stick work and the courage routine .
> He would probably have issues with David's picture .


I was thinking the same thing. Tough, hard dog, maybe has an "out" problem, both dog and handler would benefit from more training and proofing. But the dog does not act "abused", in fact his tail is wagging and he's still full of himself after the correction.

Honestly, I read the comments before watching the video and was expecting to see something much, much worse. I watched it again to see if maybe I missed something the first time. It looks to me like a relatively inexperienced handler with a very strong dog. Abuse? It sure looks like it to John Q. Public, and without context, that's how it will be perceived to most people.


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## onyx'girl

and now change.org has a petition circulating to fire the handler. Why do these petitions seem to hold so much power?


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## carmspack

mob rules.


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## David Winners

Here is part of the problem IMO.

Hanging / choking a dog has a place in training detection dogs, especially if they are 2 years old and have no out training. This is something that has to be done right to avoid damage to the dog. Yes, it's a hard dog and isn't bothered by it at all. It has been conditioned through repetition. I get choked, the game starts again, repeated over and over in training.

He missed the first time, the collar was too low on the neck, but he hung the dog anyways. It didn't work. Then he adjusts the collar up higher on the neck and tries again but has no control because of all the leash between the collar and his hand. He gets tired or loses control and tries again. Each time the dog is getting choked and keeping the ball. It is being rewarded for hanging on by terrible handling.

This can create a dog that you have to pass out to get it's ball back, and that creates brain damage. I don't personally care if the dog can take it. He is still harming the dog. I guarantee if you look under the fur on the top of that dog's neck there are bruises from the choke pinching. 

David Winners


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## onyx'girl

I recently saw someone posting about prongs and how the thyroid gland can be damaged from constricting collars. Supposedly Dr Dodds is against them because of it. I wonder how many studies have been done to support that theory. 
David, did you see a ball in that vid? It is hard to make out what the dog actually was holding.


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## onyx'girl

From the petition:

Petitioning hammond, indiana Mayor 
The voters of Hammond and Lake County demand immediate firing of the officer involved in the beating of his K-9 partner.

Jamie Steinkamp 
Petition by
Jamie Steinkamp
St John, IN

Animal abuse is bad enough. But, when it is abuse by an officer to his K9 partner it is even more disturbing. Officers K-9 partners will give their life for their human partners every single day and not think twice. For an officer to beat their partner is unacceptable. 

The voters of Hammond and Lake County demand immediate firing of the officer involved in the beating of his K-9 partner. This dog puts his life on the line every single day to protect his human partner. He is in turn choked and beat by the person he is suppose to be protecting, his partner. The entire country is outraged by this. This is not a representation of our police force, or any police force. K-9 partners should not be treated like punching bags. This officer would not have choked and hit his human partner. This behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

To: 
hammond, indiana Mayor 
Thomas McDermott Jr 
Immediate firing of the Hammond K9 Officer involved in the beating of his K9 partner
Sincerely, 
[Your name]

News

Mayor's broadcast

Jamie Steinkamp
by Jamie Steinkamp
Petition Organizer
As promised, here is the link for the mayors broadcast on the local radio station. The volume is low, I apologize, but so far, its the best I have. The discussion regarding the officer starts at about 2:50.

I have been told by a few sources that this may actually be how the officer was trained. If that is the case, then we will be going after the training methods and not the individual officer. You cannot punish somebody for acting the way they were trained. This is all preliminary though. We have not heard an official explanation from anybody in the department. I will keep everyone posted.

Until then, please keep sharing. We must keep this in the public eye.

Without the spotlight on the mayor, NOTHING will change and these dogs will continue to be abused.


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## simba405

Freestep said:


> But the dog does not act "abused", in fact his tail is wagging and he's still full of himself after the correction.


So if the dog can take the pain it's OK to continually inflict pain on it? You're joking right?


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## carmspack

bad training -- back to class , and / or get a better match


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## David Winners

carmspack said:


> bad training -- back to class , and / or get a better match


Oh I agree Carmen. But not all dogs come out of a class. 10 minutes with a good instructor could alleviate the problem by showing the handler how to deal with the issue and train a positive out. The problem wouldn't be gone in 10 minutes, but the handler would hopefully understand how to work on it.

Every dog at the kennels is crazy possessive when we first get them (and some for much longer). This is working dog training 101.


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## David Winners

onyx'girl said:


> I recently saw someone posting about prongs and how the thyroid gland can be damaged from constricting collars. Supposedly Dr Dodds is against them because of it. I wonder how many studies have been done to support that theory.
> David, did you see a ball in that vid? It is hard to make out what the dog actually was holding.


I can't be sure it is a ball, but what else would he pick up and pocket? If it's a bag of dope, I doubt he would slide it into his pocket, but would rather let it fall and leave it until the dog was put up.

From my perspective, he's choking the dog off a reward. It may be something different, but I don't know what it would be.


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## David Winners

onyx'girl said:


> I recently saw someone posting about prongs and how the thyroid gland can be damaged from constricting collars. Supposedly Dr Dodds is against them because of it. I wonder how many studies have been done to support that theory.
> David, did you see a ball in that vid? It is hard to make out what the dog actually was holding.


The larynx is under greater risk, because of it's location. The most effective way to place a training collar is high up under the jaw. This is right where the larynx is located. Some dogs that get choked a lot or regularly pull on a collar have repeated damage to the larynx which can lead to paralysis. This causes wheezing and labored breathing you see in some older working dogs.

The thyroid is in about the same location. Damage to the thyroid can cause hypothyroidism. IME, it is not nearly as common as damage to the larynx, but I have seen a couple cases of thyroid damage due to hard corrections on a nylon slip collar that was too loose and riding lower on the neck. It is positioned a couple of inches below the jaw.

It takes a lot of force to injure a dog like this, and these injuries, especially to the larynx, are seen in dogs where they are habitual pullers or are choked off with great force regularly. Hanging a dog by all it's weight places a huge amount of force on the larynx which is why I feel it is abusive to do unless there is need for it (handler protection). Doing this with a flat collar also spreads the force out and reduces the risk of structural damage. The idea is to cut off the air, not cause pain or damage to the dog. I typically use a 1-1/2" or 2" flat collar for this.

I am not a medical professional. My opinions are based on anecdotal evidence and don't really mean anything. Before you choke your dog for whatever reason, you should consult a professional trainer and discuss the possible outcomes with your veterinarian.

All JMO.


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## carmspack

David Winners said:


> Oh I agree Carmen. But not all dogs come out of a class. 10 minutes with a good instructor could alleviate the problem by showing the handler how to deal with the issue and train a positive out. The problem wouldn't be gone in 10 minutes, but the handler would hopefully understand how to work on it.
> 
> Every dog at the kennels is crazy possessive when we first get them (and some for much longer). This is working dog training 101.


I agree . We still do not have the culture around working dogs that Europe has . I remember the great efforts that were put in to have the public come on board and support k9 unitsl. I remember some southern US states that did not have public support , some as late as 2000 . So historically,for dog employment, we are still in the learning phase , that includes schutzhund decoys . The situation , I think, is improving. 
I can look at that video from the perspective of someone who has dogs out in the law enforcement working world. The question is would I want one of my dogs handled this way . Answer strong and clear NO. 
Do I think the handler did it with malice or deliberate intent to harm the dog . Again no. 
There is still a huge learning curve ahead .

Ideally I want fair treatment all round. This goes for the dog . This goes for the person arrested , no "encouraged" dirty bites -- no judge and executioner law enforcement personnel. Let the system do its work. 
This goes for the officer. Dismissal is harsh. He does need to get a reprimand, schooling , possible no K9 duties.


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## onyx'girl

The thing about this situation is, many are going against the police K9 training techniques(possibly with good reason) and the ones supporting the video are making their case worse because they are calling everyone stupid/ignorant as those commenting aren't in the LEO world. 
It would be better if they admitted the handler needed some training, instead of upholding him. 
Now the AR's are getting on board and petitioning. The petition states that the dog was beaten, he was not! 
Of course he was handled abusively, but it was far from a beating. 
Cases like this add fuel to the AR's arsenals, and anyone that is anti cop will keep badmouthing them as this video keeps getting so much exposure, I've seen it over and over in my fb newsfeed.


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## bill

Just looked on fb " it seems some of the officers do know how too train! They also think it is abuse! Bill

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## onyx'girl

bill said:


> Just looked on fb " it seems some of the officers do know how too train! They also think it is abuse! Bill
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


what page? This is about the norm that I read from the policeone.com page:
" Any body commenting a k9 handler? If not then hush. It's a tool not a pet"


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## bill

On the first page on the site you posted! Every cop is not for the abuse! 
PS I am a k9 handler " trainer! Anyone that thinks that is OK ! 
Well it is not! 

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## Freestep

simba405 said:


> So if the dog can take the pain it's OK to continually inflict pain on it? You're joking right?


 Yeah, that's exactly what I said.  Read my post more carefully and show me where I said it's "okay to continually inflict pain" on an animal. I was simply pointing out that the dog does not seem hurt, nor does he behave like an "abused" dog, so I don't think this type of handling is the norm. 



carmspack said:


> Do I think the handler did it with malice or deliberate intent to harm the dog . Again no.


 Exactly, it just seems like a relatively inexperienced handler who was frustrated and made a mistake. How many times have we made mistakes in our lives? It's just that 99.999999% of the time we don't get caught on video.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's sad, really, when you read those face book posts.

Convos seem to end up just being caricatures of both sides, stereotypical one liners most of them. I blame that to a certain extent on 'social' media.

There have been a lot more balanced and objective comments here, maybe some of those police officers should hop on over here. 

Maybe the police officer in question was inexperienced or maybe he was poorly trained himself or he's just not a good K9 handler and the culture in his department allows for it, which is NOT unheard of.

There's a lot of ego involved we see it here and IRL with people just doing basic training, they don't like to be told they are doing something wrong. 

So I'm going to go out on what I consider a rather safe limb and say, nothing will come of this in the long run, it'll blow over and they'll carry on as before.


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## selzer

I don't have a dog in this fight. 

The only thing I am going to say, though it is probably totally obvious is that with the spectrum of pet dog training as wide as oceans, with people being from clearly abusive, balanced: yank and crank and dominance alpha type stuff; balanced: correction collars and positive techniques; balanced: positive techniques with negative markers when necessary; and what some people believe is positive only / totally permissive. And most of these have a spectrum of skill and experience on the trainers part. 

Why would we think that k9 training is like McDonalds, the same in Ohio as it is in NY and Canada, and maybe Mexico, California, China, and India. There are probably plenty of different schools of thought on how the K9 should be trained and treated, and the handlers are probably on the same kind of spectrum of experience and skill.


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## selzer

Ok, I lied, I have another thing to say, and that is, if I screw up my training, I get a dog that doesn't stand for an exam, or fails supervised separation, or doesn't give me a snazzy finish. I get a 93 rather than a 100 or a 184 out of 200. Maybe I don't qualify. If LEOs screw up their training, someone gets hurt, their job is on the line, their dog is maybe put down. 

If they do not keep the upper hand (with dogs that are probably selected and conditioned to have strong personalities) in whatever manner they find necessary depending on their training and experience the consequences can be pretty stiff. I guess I might be more likely to get a bee in my bonnet if the dog is dead due to training techniques than I am about a dog that seems to be just fine after the fact. 

And why should k9 trainers be any different from the rest of us when it comes to the only thing two trainers can agree upon is what the third is doing wrong?


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## misslesleedavis1

Still tho, they are in the public eye all the time. Every move they make is pretty much on youtube the next day, does not matter one bit if he was in the right and if 100 trainers said yey this is acceptable. He is against regular people for the most part who dont look at this video and go "this is fine" they look at this vid and go " fire that nutter" 

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## Blanketback

I bet if the K9 had been latched onto the person leaning against the cruiser and had refused to out, then everyone would be saying the handler should have choked the dog off. That K9s are dangerous, need better training, etc. Darned if you do and darned if you don't. Since I have no experience in K9 training or handling, I'll listen to those that do.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...and those that do have experience don't agree amongst each other.

I think it's fair to say that there has been a shift in practices, as Bill mentioned earlier, next generation.

My trainer who has helped as a decoy for police K9s has said a lot of these guys have a bad relationship with their dogs. 

Also, in talking with police officers I know about K9 units I've heard more then once those who get those posts often get them out of politically motivated decision making higher up rather then which man or women has the best dog handling aptitude. 





Blanketback said:


> I bet if the K9 had been latched onto the person leaning against the cruiser and had refused to out, then everyone would be saying the handler should have choked the dog off. That K9s are dangerous, need better training, etc. Darned if you do and darned if you don't. *Since I have no experience in K9 training or handling, I'll listen to those that do*.


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## David Winners

IMO, it takes a certain kind of person to be a good handler, and if a prospect just isn't that kind of person, they are better off without a dog. The dog is definitely better off for sure.

My class of MIL handlers had 8 out of 25 make it.

Those numbers got better as the selection process was refined. The program was involved in assisting units to select handlers.


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## onyx'girl

I subscribe to the K9Cop magazine and there are strides being made thru several articles to change the yank and crank style into more motivational training. 
When Onyx was going thru her reactive aggressive phase, I consulted a retired K9 trainer(he trained dogs for depts/he was a retired handler) and he told me to string her up until she complied. And if that meant passing out, so be it. I didn't follow his advice. 

I've trained with a few K9 handlers and they also train in sport so they are more about motivation, but some still use the chain choke collar, which I'd never, ever put on my dogs. 

This case may just open some depts eyes to the training and handling/eyes are on them. So they may resort to more motivational methods. Even hard dogs can be trained without harsh corrections. The corrections need to be meaningful, but that doesn't mean unfair or harsh.


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## Slamdunc

I have watched Cesar Milan's show and have seen him do far worse to dogs. The "dog whisperer" typically strings dogs up until they pass out. Then with some careful and skillful editing you see him petting a panting, gassed out, "*calm, submissive"* dog. What Cesar does is way more brutal than the poor handling I saw on that video and he's a "pro."


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## LouCastle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Police aren't training outs in some depts. There was arguing between people who have been or are currently working LEO K9 handlers/trainer. So it's not a settled matter even between professional LEO K9 handlers/trainers.


I've been part of those arguments. Just about universally, people who are not training the out, do not know how to do so without harming the rest of the dog's work. Per the courts, and common sense, a K−9 is required to be under the control of is handler at all times. Seems to me, that if the handler can't get his dog to stop biting when the handler is a distance away, he's not under control. Just the same as if he couldn't get the dog to sit or recall. It's just a matter of time until these cases start hitting the courts. 

Getting the out is surprisingly easy if the right methods are used. I've never had any trouble doing so. I've worked with some dogs that have had a cattle prod applied to their testicles in efforts to get them to release a bite and still would not. My hardest case, I had that dog releasing on a verbal command in about 45 minutes. Others who have suffered the same abuse, and I think that is abuse, took less time. 

The out is not just for the crook. Other people get bitten by these dogs sometimes, innocent bystanders and sometimes other officers. In the past couple of years officers have shot and killed several police dogs that bit other officers, would not release the bite and so the officers handled it themselves. I know of officers who have received career ending injuries from their department's police dogs. There's no excuse for this, except ignorance. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> BUT It would follow that if they don't think training outs are necessary this is the sort of thing you're going to see.


I think that there's a significant difference between releasing a ball/toy and releasing a suspect. Different drives are involved and so for the best results, different approaches are needed. Lots of people think this is an OB issue, I used to as well, but then I found a much better way, working with, instead of against the dog's drives. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> In some cases (like one near me recently when the K9 bit an officer and they used a break stick to get the dog off of a POLICE officer) and the other * case in SC where they had to cut the pants off the suspect because the mali wouldn't out. * They tried flanking and choking that dog out too.


That last bite you refer to, went on for about a minute and a half on a suspect who was completely non-resisting. It should have been stopped immediately after the dog made the bite. 



Gwenhwyfair said:


> I know police K9s don't need snappy competition OB on them but there's the other side of the coin and this is an example IMO.


Sorry for the rant, this topic makes me a bit crazy. (Some say that's a short trip!) lol

Now to this dog. I fear another rant coming on. I think we're seeing a poorly trained handler applying a technique improperly. It looks as if the dog has a ball and the handler is trying to get it away from him. Lifting the dog's front feet off the ground to cut off his air, aka choking him, is a common method to do this when the dog is not responsive to a voice command. But this handler apparently feels that if a little is good, then a lot is better. He's wrong. The hits with the leash are dumb, but they're not hard enough that they are abusive. 

The uproar is due to several things. First is the fact that this country is going down the toilet due to the emphasis placed on political correctness of wannabe−do−gooders of all kinds. From banning big sodas to keeping speakers from college campuses, the place is going off the rails. Anything but feeding a dog a treat, is abuse to some of them. Mostly they have no idea how to get a dog to do anything unless they have a treat in their hands. I'm not talking about so−called PP trainers, just the pet owners who think their dogs are little furry children. Now with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and the rest, they get a voice, the same as someone who knows what the heck he's doing. And with politicians afraid that they might lose a vote, they over−react and the result is that this officer gets suspended and his dog taken away. When this sort of thing happens, it cheapens situations where REAL abuse is going.


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## LouCastle

mycobraracr said:


> Bill, I have been told that they don't train the out because if they tell the dog to out and it doesn't then the the LE agency is more at risk of a lawsuit. So if they don't tell the dog to out they can't get sued for it not outing.


This is circular and highly flawed thinking. Courts have ruled that the K−9 MUST be under the handler's control at all times. If he can't get the dog to release a bite on a verbal command, he's not under control. People who say this simply do not understand the law. Fortunately for them, juries in those areas are very pro LE and have the mentality of "if the guy hadn't broken the law, he wouldn't have been bitten." That results in few situations where they get a jury verdict against the police. But federal courts work differently and it's only a matter of time before these cases get to them.


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## bill

Great post! Loucastle.

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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, always good to get Lou's perspective.  That's not a rant, that's good information from someone who has a balanced perspective.

(The only slight disagreement I have is with reference to a larger climate of political correctness as I've noticed when it comes to dogs being "furry kids" it's more monolithic in nature not "PC" but that treads into forbidden topics.....)


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## selzer

LouCastle said:


> I've been part of those arguments. Just about universally, people who are not training the out, do not know how to do so without harming the rest of the dog's work. Per the courts, and common sense, a K−9 is required to be under the control of is handler at all times. Seems to me, that if the handler can't get his dog to stop biting when the handler is a distance away, he's not under control. Just the same as if he couldn't get the dog to sit or recall. It's just a matter of time until these cases start hitting the courts.
> 
> Getting the out is surprisingly easy if the right methods are used. I've never had any trouble doing so. I've worked with some dogs that have had a cattle prod applied to their testicles in efforts to get them to release a bite and still would not. My hardest case, I had that dog releasing on a verbal command in about 45 minutes. Others who have suffered the same abuse, and I think that is abuse, took less time.
> 
> The out is not just for the crook. Other people get bitten by these dogs sometimes, innocent bystanders and sometimes other officers. In the past couple of years officers have shot and killed several police dogs that bit other officers, would not release the bite and so the officers handled it themselves. I know of officers who have received career ending injuries from their department's police dogs. There's no excuse for this, except ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that there's a significant difference between releasing a ball/toy and releasing a suspect. Different drives are involved and so for the best results, different approaches are needed. Lots of people think this is an OB issue, I used to as well, but then I found a much better way, working with, instead of against the dog's drives.
> 
> 
> 
> That last bite you refer to, went on for about a minute and a half on a suspect who was completely non-resisting. It should have been stopped immediately after the dog made the bite.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for the rant, this topic makes me a bit crazy. (Some say that's a short trip!) lol
> 
> Now to this dog. I fear another rant coming on. I think we're seeing a poorly trained handler applying a technique improperly. It looks as if the dog has a ball and the handler is trying to get it away from him. Lifting the dog's front feet off the ground to cut off his air, aka choking him, is a common method to do this when the dog is not responsive to a voice command. But this handler apparently feels that if a little is good, then a lot is better. He's wrong. The hits with the leash are dumb, but they're not hard enough that they are abusive.
> 
> *The uproar is due to several things. First is the fact that this country is going down the toilet due to the emphasis placed on political correctness of wannabe−do−gooders of all kinds. From banning big sodas to keeping speakers from college campuses, the place is going off the rails. Anything but feeding a dog a treat, is abuse to some of them. Mostly they have no idea how to get a dog to do anything unless they have a treat in their hands. I'm not talking about so−called PP trainers, just the pet owners who think their dogs are little furry children. Now with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and the rest, they get a voice, the same as someone who knows what the heck he's doing. And with politicians afraid that they might lose a vote, they over−react and the result is that this officer gets suspended and his dog taken away. When this sort of thing happens, it cheapens situations where REAL abuse is going.*


I gotta say, Lou, I totally agree with you on this.


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## LaRen616

I just heard on the news this morning that the officer is going back to work with that dog, they said he was not doing anything wrong and that he was using the proper techniques on the dog but they want him to go to some more training.


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## llombardo

LaRen616 said:


> I just heard on the news this morning that the officer is going back to work with that dog, they said he was not doing anything wrong and that he was using the proper techniques on the dog but they want him to go to some more training.


A trainer also evaluated the situation. The dog and handler both need more training. The dog wanted to keep playing with the ball and the officer had to get to the other officer to assist in the arrest. Was it handled wrong, yes. Will it get fixed, hopefully. I have seen far worse abuse. I didn't think I seen abuse when I seen this video, just incompetence.


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## LaRen616

llombardo said:


> I have seen far worse abuse. I didn't think I seen abuse when I seen this video, just incompetence.


I have seen far worse abuse too but IMO this is still considered abuse. I don't care if he is a K9 cop or not, hanging the dog and whacking at it is abuse IMO. 



LouCastle said:


> First is the fact that this country is going down the toilet due to the emphasis placed on political correctness of *wannabe−do−gooders* of all kinds. From banning big sodas to keeping speakers from college campuses, the place is going off the rails. *Anything but feeding a dog a treat, is abuse to some of them. Mostly they have no idea how to get a dog to do anything unless they have a treat in their* *hands. I'm not talking about so−called PP trainers, just the pet owners who think their dogs are little furry children*.


Yes, my dogs are my furry children but I still treat them like dogs. They are very well behaved and they are trained, I can take them anywhere and know that they will behave. I have worked really hard with my dogs, my dogs rarely ever get treats, they do commands without a food reward. 

I train and get things done without having to hang, choke or hit my dogs.


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## deacon

And your dogs are probably not dominant or alpha males either.


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## LaRen616

deacon said:


> And your dogs are probably not dominant or alpha males either.


My GSD is submissive but my Dal is more dominant.

If you have to choke, hang or hit your dog for it to release a ball then something isn't right.


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## LouCastle

LaRen616 said:


> My GSD is submissive but my Dal is more dominant.[/FONT]
> 
> If you have to * choke, hang or hit * your dog for it to release a ball then something isn't right.


It's usually pretty easy to get a toy away from a submissive or moderately dominant dog. It's quite another to get it away from a very dominant dog, especially if force has been used in the past to get this. There are better ways to start with, but that's another discussion. 

_"Hanging"_ is a self defensive move for when a dog attacks the handler. It sometimes happens with new dogs that are very dominant before the handler has established a good relationship with the dog. There are some breeds and some lines that this is more common with. It allows the handler to stop the attack without hurting the dog. It's not a training technique. 

_"Hitting"_ a dog is an old school method of getting them to release something that they don't want to let go of. I think that there are better ways of doing this. 

_"Choking"_ is a misnomer as the technique is properly done. "Coughing" is more accurate. By applying pressure to the dog's neck you make him cough. When he does, he opens his mouth, some a lot, some a little, so that you can take away whatever is in his mouth. The dog should not be _"choked"_ into unconsciousness, that's part of hanging, not training. Some trainers like to hold onto the dog's collar and push the object into his mouth (or the dog into the object), also making him cough, giving the same result. 

There are plenty of way to get dogs to release objects, or bites, but many of them use toys or some other form of handler supplied rewards and are, IMO unsuitable for dogs that bite for real, such as LE, PP or military K−9's, but that too, is another discussion.


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## selzer

I am glad they will get more training. But, I am also glad that they are going back to work. This was not a vicious attack by the handler on the dog. There are far worse abuses going on amongst dog trainers, and I think that the yayhoo that recorded it kind of heightened the whole thing by his commentary. It wasn't that freaky, and the public needn't get all hot and bothered how a tough dog is handled. 

These dogs are tough. They are expected to continue working even when they are punched or kicked or even shot. They are not made out of glass. Do you think a several hundred pound ram might not pummel a dog? They are tough dogs, they need to be. 

And in the middle of an arrest, the dog needs to be on task, because the officer needs to back up the other officer, not fight with his dog. Certainly, when we see clear cruelty going on, we should ensure that someone is aware of it, like the cop that shot the vagrants' dog. At some point though, these guys have to do their job. And they shouldn't have to be constantly concerned that someone is going to cry foul, every time they say boo to their dogs.


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## Slamdunc

Dog Whisperer S4 Epi-18 part 1 - YouTube

Far worse and is just one example of Cesar hanging a dog. Completely unnecessary! There are far better ways to deal with a dog than what was done here. But, most people will think that this calm, submissive dog is appropriate. Poor handling by the owners created this behavior and the dog pays for it. There are plenty of videos of Cesar doing this to dogs to create that beaten down, squashed, fearful, pure avoidance, given up, nearly asphyxiated, gassed out and forced into submission dog. Ohhh, I mean *calm, submissive,* laying on the ground accepting that harsh treatment. But hey' everyone loves Ceasr and his techniques. Primarily, because the vast majority of dog owners have no clue what is going on, what the dog is going through or what just happened. Those that can see through the editing of his show and have worked with dogs know the difference.


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## Slamdunc

Are the Dog Whisperer's methods harmful ? - YouTube

Just to put things in perspective.


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## Baillif

Pain elicited agression that became operant agression. Should have cracked the dog over the head the first time they saw it and it would never have been an issue again.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Sounds like an appropriate outcome to me, officer and dog getting more training means acknowledgement there's a need for improvement. IMHO given what is known, sounds like a proportional response.


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