# What's up with so many GSD owners ?



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I've only been in this forum for less than a year and I have come to discover, all too many GSD owners are so caught up in having a BIG dog, so BIG they might purposely overfeed the dog so they can say...."...yeah my shepherd weighs a hundred and ....... pounds". It's almost as if having a bigger dog/GSD somehow makes one feel a sense of elevated status. Why is it, we never hear anyone shout from the rooftops "....YES, it's a purebred GSD and it only weighs 16 pounds"? Actually, a toy shepherd would be interesting.

These are the questions I ask.


Anyway, my ideal GSD is healthy and well behaved.....notice the order of the adjectives...priority intended.

Okay, so in order to stop this " I have a huge GSD " problem, I am laying it to rest. Please understand, I simply have the biggest GSD and it will never be topped, so please, keep your dogs lean and mean.....all involved benefit.

Attached is a picture of my GSD named Riese Mammut. I am in the picture as well and have used all those "keep you looking young" products as seen on TV...and available as well...usually you get twice as much as you expected and all for just a small additional shipping and handling fee. I was 51 when that picture was taken last year.

SuperG


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I have a teacup GSD.
Hans is 66.5 lbs.
Heh, heh.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm out 117 lbs.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I think its just education. Alot of owners like myself, not knowing too much about the breed, mistakenly think they are large dogs. just keep educating us


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Last time a lady argued with me that my 75 pound Ilda was too small to be a Full grown GSD I finally just asked her, "when was the last time you saw a St Bernard working as a police K 9?" That put an end to that.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Msmaria said:


> I think its just education. Alot of owners like myself, not knowing too much about the brerd, mistakenly think they are large dogs.


I hope this was meant as a joke.

Because it is very easy to find out all about the standard, with a few clicks of a mouse. If people are here and on the Internet there is no excuse for not knowing.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Nope, it wasnt a joke. Ive seen many german shepherds in my city and most are over 70 pounds. I never researched because I never intended to get one. Being ignorant I assumed they were large size dogs. I never thought they were smaller than labs or retrievers. Now that I am on the forum I realize what size they should be. In one of the training classes theres another german shepherd , correct size, and everyone wants to know why hes so small, instead of why mine is so big. You can expect that people should use the internet in this day and age to research it, but it doesnt mean they do.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I have a teacup GSD.
> Hans is 66.5 lbs.
> Heh, heh.


WE SHOULD BREED OUR MINIATURES.

Mine is only 50  The most miniature of them all.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Msmaria said:


> I think its just education. Alot of owners like myself, not knowing too much about the breed, mistakenly think they are large dogs. just keep educating us



I wish I could....but as I posted "these are the questions I ask".

Another observation I have made. GSDs amongst a few other breeds have such a wide variance in shapes and sizes. Yes, I suppose being one of the top most popular dogs has it's setbacks but most every purebred smooth/rough coat Collie/ St Bernard/Newfie/Afghan Hound etc. one sees, they basically are so much more homogenized in appearance. So, what's up with the wide array of GSDs when it comes to appearance?

Yes, I ask many questions.


SuperG


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> WE SHOULD BREED OUR MINIATURES.
> 
> Mine is only 50  The most miniature of them all.


Fantastic. We could call them MinSheps and sell them for $5,000 apiece.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

SuperG said:


> I wish I could....but as I posted "these are the questions I ask".
> 
> Another observation I have made. GSDs amongst a few other breeds have such a wide variance in shapes and sizes. Yes, I suppose being one of the top most popular dogs has it's setbacks but most every purebred smooth/rough coat Collie/ St Bernard/Newfie/Afghan Hound etc. one sees, they basically are so much more homogenized in appearance._ So, what's up with the wide array of GSDs when it comes to appearance?_
> 
> ...



Because everyone and their mother thinks that they should breed their dogs these days. The standard is going to be lost eventually. After seeing a couple of sites posted as "examples" in another thread...I'm convinced we may have lost it already.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Fantastic. We could call them MinSheps and sell them for $5,000 apiece.


Carma is long hair so that should be able to jack the price of her puppies up at least another grand though.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> Carma is long hair so that should be able to jack the price of her puppies up at least another grand though.


Fantastic. With the long hair and Hans's easty-westy paws and short upper arms, they will be fabulously exotic looking pups! Woohoo!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SuperG said:


> I've only been in this forum for less than a year and I have come to discover, all too many GSD owners are so caught up in having a BIG dog, so BIG they might purposely overfeed the dog so they can say...."...yeah my shepherd weighs a hundred and ....... pounds". It's almost as if having a bigger dog/GSD somehow makes one feel a sense of elevated status. Why is it, we never hear anyone shout from the rooftops "....YES, it's a purebred GSD and it only weighs 16 pounds"? Actually, a toy shepherd would be interesting.
> 
> These are the questions I ask.
> 
> ...


LOL!!! I love the picture! You have the biggest. Now we can move on.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Attached is a picture of my GSD named Riese Mammut. I am in the picture as well and have used all those "keep you looking young" products as seen on TV...and available as well...usually you get twice as much as you expected and all for just a small additional shipping and handling fee. I was 51 when that picture was taken last year.
> 
> SuperG


Now, that's what I call a saddle back!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Now, that's what I call a saddle back!


Hehehehehehe

SuperG


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I have a teacup GSD.
> Hans is 66.5 lbs.
> Heh, heh.


My boy is only 65!  

I had a guy come up to me and my dog at a pet store once bragging to me about his 'King Shepherd' and how much bigger he was then my dog. I was like REALLY??

I prefer my puny dude.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I think it's is a combination of things. It's been my experience that GSD's get lumped in with much larger dogs called "large breed" like mastiffs and Great Dane which are actually giant breed dogs. Danes and Mastiffs are huge so they think a GSD should be huge as well. 

Then you have the vet and dog food companies telling owners to be sure to feed large breed puppy food because the pup is "going to be big." Lending to the idea that German Shepherds are suppose to be some big heavy dog. 
What they (vets) often fail to mention is the large breed puppy food has more to do with slowing growth for overall bone health as the breed matures physically slower then other dogs of the same size. Lower calories per cup, better calcium ratios etc. to help stave off joint health issues among other things. 

As for people wanting larger German Shepherds...

Just this past week at the pet store I was speaking with a woman who introduced me and my 10 month old female (about 24 in. & 58-59 lbs) to her 8 month old female "giant shepherd" as she called her. This pup was huge (much bigger than my girl) and I believe was a genuine King Shepherd. She told me she liked all her dogs to be big as she walks at night alone and thinks the bigger dog is more intimidating. She also had a beautiful Samoyed with her that appeared to be on the large size for the breed as well. 
IMO I think many people think bigger means more intimidating, fearsome and more powerful. They don't realize that a well trained smaller dog can be just as intimidating, protective, fearsome and effective as the bigger dog. Probably more so. 

Put someone in a dark alley faced with a very tall, large male and they, more often than not, will be cautious and somewhat fearful at the least. 
Take that same person and put them in a dark alley with a small slight built man and they will probably walk right by with ease and might even say "hi" never realizing the small guy has the gun or knife and they are in grave danger. 

It's about the unrealistic perception... not the reality.
Like they say...bigger is better!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Springbrz said:


> I think it's is a combination of things. It's been my experience that GSD's get lumped in with much larger dogs called "large breed" like mastiffs and Great Dane which are actually giant breed dogs. Danes and Mastiffs are huge so they think a GSD should be huge as well.
> 
> Then you have the vet and dog food companies telling owners to be sure to feed large breed puppy food because the pup is "going to be big." Lending to the idea that German Shepherds are suppose to be some big heavy dog.
> What they (vets) often fail to mention is the large breed puppy food has more to do with slowing growth for overall bone health as the breed matures physically slower then other dogs of the same size. Lower calories per cup, better calcium ratios etc. to help stave off joint health issues among other things.
> ...


Great perspective....interesting.

SuperG


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## havery (Jan 1, 2014)

My girl is a healthy, lean 67 lbs, and I've never gotten a comment that she's small for a shepherd, but her presence is big if that makes sense, she's very serious. But my 90 lb black coatie gets comments all the time about how he looks too small for a GSD :-/ He's shorter and acts like a goofy teddy bear so I guess he looks smaller in their minds? He's built much thicker than her though.

Bottom line: people are stupid. It's all mind games.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

This is America (for most of us at least). Bigger = Better. Big trucks, big firework shows, big steaks, big dogs.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I hate seeing overweight GSDs, they can't run and to me always look uncomfortable. Same token I'm not keen on really skinny dogs either, a friend always has her bitch on a diet before showing and gets her down to 57 pounds, you can clearly see her ribs, she looks much better at her normal weight of 66 pounds.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> This is America (for most of us at least). Bigger = Better. Big trucks, big firework shows, big steaks, big dogs.


And if it is small it needs to get smaller (Chihuahuas)


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

Our last female was 65 lbs her entire adult life. Healthy and active. She was fast and agile. 

Our new pup is a monster, I'm curious to see his adult weight. Hopefully his paws are just growing first. I would like to see him a large healthy male GSD but couldn't care less about his final weight. 

His dad was a large dog but not enormous. Momma was large for a female in my opinion (85 lbs) but not abnormal. I like big dogs but 65 or 100 lbs, doesn't matter. I just don't want a foofoo dog.


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## janr (Sep 10, 2013)

*measuring a dogs height*

Can anyone tell me the proper way to measure a dogs height? Do you bring the tape up over the withers or even with. Or is the withers even the correct place to do it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

There is a definite "Safe" feeling with having a big dogs. We live out in the middle of nowhere with coyotes and other wildlife. When my dogs go off I know nothing is going to mess with them or with me. 

Last night the coyotes were howling and all the dogs in the area were going off. 

When we did our last walk around the property before bed I put wiggles back inside because I was worried she is so small (about 40#) compared to my 90# & 80# shepherds.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Springbrz said:


> IMO I think many people think bigger means more intimidating, fearsome and more powerful. They don't realize that a well trained smaller dog can be just as intimidating, protective, fearsome and effective as the bigger dog. Probably more so.


lol probably more so how? how would a 55 lb shepherd be as intimidating and powerful as a 90 lb shepherd? the only thing a smaller sized gsd is better at than a bigger gsd when the threat is real is run away faster. i think the average gsd owner wants an intimidating well built dog with a good mix of speed and agility. no one wants the 110 lb dog thats all power nor do they want the 55 lb dog thats all speed.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

My boy Eko is ~90lbs, he is very intimidating which is a part of the reason I wanted a GSD. I remember my grandparents' GSD being a very big dog, but I was probably only about 7 when she passed so she may not have been. I do prefer the larger GSDs but I prefer very big dogs in general.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Midnite is over 100 pounds and I don't like it, we have started a diet. I want him at about 80-85. He doesn't look bad , he is big boned and he does look very intimidating. It's just his look, at 85 pounds he will still look the same. Robyn is now at 75 pounds , but she is very tall. The vet lists her a very slender and lean.


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## robeangyalchen (Aug 11, 2013)

janr said:


> Can anyone tell me the proper way to measure a dogs height? Do you bring the tape up over the withers or even with. Or is the withers even the correct place to do it.



There you go, this was posted in another thread, this is the correct way to measure height and length.
I have always found my GSd in a smaller side, may be that's the right size. Although, he has grown a lot and i have not weighed him recently, but i feel he is a little on the small size.










I have


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> lol probably more so how? how would a 55 lb shepherd be as intimidating and powerful as a 90 lb shepherd? the only thing a smaller sized gsd is better at than a bigger gsd when the threat is real is run away faster. i think the average gsd owner wants an intimidating well built dog with a good mix of speed and agility. no one wants the 110 lb dog thats all power nor do they want the 55 lb dog thats all speed.


First of all, you can't make a statement about what no one wants. Plenty of operators are using smaller dogs, by choice. 










That's how they can be intimidating. Would you walk into that?

The bite strength of a larger dog is greater due to larger head size, but honestly, 55 lbs. or 90 lbs - it's going to hurt... a lot.

Not only can the dog run away faster, it can also run to the target faster. Smaller, more agile dogs are far harder to esquive, or shoot in the face. Their reflexes are faster and they adjust to the target more quickly. They work longer with less fatigue. They experience less musculoskeletal issues. They hit harder.

Ever been hit by 55 lbs. going 30 MPH? Unless you know what you are doing, you are going down.

I could give some pretty gruesome details about what a small GSD can do to a bad guy without equipment on. The SF handlers I know are all going to smaller, more agile dogs, and it's not just so they are easier to carry.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

I have been asked what size ours will be when the finish growing....I always tell them they are close to grown, they will fill out some here and there but everything I read about the working lines...the breed should be more compact....our male is 72 lbs, he is wider in the chest, shoulders and has a huge head. Millie the female just started filling out her lanky frame and weighs 64lbs....she has narrower chest, shoulders...she is all head and ears. Everything I have read said they are pretty much the size the will be....people look at me funny when I say they are grown....but the guy who was questioning their size had his GSD which looked about 150 and could barley breathe (he sounded like a giant pug) I can't imagine his dog could keep up with our family. We swim, run, bike, hike, play soccer, frisbee, throw tennis balls, train agility and obedience every weekend, looking into other active trials....I don't see his dog doing any of that. He did not look like he would make it through the walk at the pet store. My aunt had a shepherd when I was a kid, I always thought the dog was huge, but seeing my Daughter next to ours....I think ours are huge. I think my memory as a kid...remembers scale to the size I was....the personality and ability of the dog was far beyond the size of the dog. 
I think if our dogs were any larger they would not have the endurance they do! 



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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

David Winners said:


> First of all, you can't make a statement about what no one wants. Plenty of operators are using smaller dogs, by choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said. My dad is in law enforcement and he talks about the speed and agility of the dogs used (and preferred) by some of the guys he works with.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

personally I wouldn't mind having a mini shepherd


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> That's how they can be intimidating. Would you walk into that?
> 
> The bite strength of a larger dog is greater due to larger head size, but honestly, 55 lbs. or 90 lbs - it's going to hurt... a lot.
> 
> ...


 Exactly!! 

I've seen many of smaller shepherds (and other breeds) that will hit and grip extremely hard.. The beauty of it is, that people under-estimate the force that can come from a smaller dog..


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Last time a lady argued with me that my 75 pound Ilda was too small to be a Full grown GSD I finally just asked her, "when was the last time you saw a St Bernard working as a police K 9?" That put an end to that.



You've dashed her hopes! She thought she could have a career!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> lol probably more so how? how would a 55 lb shepherd be as intimidating and powerful as a 90 lb shepherd? the only thing a smaller sized gsd is better at than a bigger gsd when the threat is real is run away faster. i think the average gsd owner wants an intimidating well built dog with a good mix of speed and agility. no one wants the 110 lb dog thats all power nor do they want the 55 lb dog thats all speed.


Why don't you come over and see?
Or ask the UPS guy or the FedEx guy, or even some of my neighbors who are intimidated even though Hans has never barked at them.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

David Winners said:


> First of all, you can't make a statement about what no one wants. Plenty of operators are using smaller dogs, by choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love ya, David!:wild:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

janr said:


> Can anyone tell me the proper way to measure a dogs height? Do you bring the tape up over the withers or even with. Or is the withers even the correct place to do it.


The most accurate way is to use a measuring stick, or wicket.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

David Winners said:


> First of all, you can't make a statement about what no one wants. Plenty of operators are using smaller dogs, by choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't but a coyote might. 

This old boy isn't going to great anyone snarling and looking like that. He is going to greet them with kisses. 










So the only thing stopping them is his sheer size. They will think twice before taking on a dog almost double their size.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My 90 pound male wouldn't have a chance to get the grip when put up next to my 50ld female. And he doesn't launch nearly as easily or as fast as my female can.

Cause this shows a real "lack of power" going into that bite...right...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> My 90 pound male wouldn't have a chance to get the grip when put up next to my 50ld female. And he doesn't launch nearly as easily or as fast as my female can.
> 
> Cause this shows a real "lack of power" going into that bite...right...


Off Topic...

Carma rocks!

I watched all your videos the other day while stuck at the washrack for a few hours. It's too cool that you posted one weekly. It's really cool to see her progression over the last year. Many new trainers could get a lot of benefit from watching your videos. If you get bored sometime (LOL) you should do a voiceover on some of them to explain what you are doing, and post the puppy marker work with original audio so the marks can be heard.

Nice dog, nice training, nice music 

OK... back to small dogs being better


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The size doesn't matter as much as the "I'm not coming off this bite" edge. I love the edge.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't think size has alot to do with deterrence personally. My sister has a cocker spaniel that would make a believer out of any intruder. I happen to think the whole bigger is better mentality is what drives the desire for a larger German Shepherd. For myself, I prefer healthy and stable, no matter the size.


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

Dudes mom said:


> I don't think size has alot to do with deterrence personally. My sister has a cocker spaniel that would make a believer out of any intruder. I happen to think the whole bigger is better mentality is what drives the desire for a larger German Shepherd. For myself, I prefer healthy and stable, no matter the size.


Healthy and stable are my pick....! 


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Dudes mom said:


> I don't think size has alot to do with deterrence personally. My sister has a cocker spaniel that would make a believer out of any intruder. I happen to think the whole bigger is better mentality is what drives the desire for a larger German Shepherd. For myself, I prefer healthy and stable, no matter the size.


Deterrence isn't going to help against predators...I know a little chi who has more personality and cajones than many bigger dogs. That would not keep him safe from the coyotes & raptors in my area. There is a great horned owl who lives in my trees. I've seen him swoop down and take both cats and rabbits who were bigger than that dog. He flat wouldn't be safe here. 

Enjoy your smaller shepherds people. But I'm going to go for the big one every time.


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## fredh (Sep 10, 2013)

This is a Good Conversation to have on this Forum. When there are too many threads here on "Is my Rescue a Pure Bred GSD ?" Or " When will his or her Ears Stand Up?" Who Knows?, I certainly Don't! Anything that will educate GSD owners that Bigger isn't always Better is a Good Thing!. A well trained 55 to 60 Pound Belgian Malinios is a Weapon in the hands of the right person.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Deterrence isn't going to help against predators...I know a little chi who has more personality and cajones than many bigger dogs. That would not keep him safe from the coyotes & raptors in my area. There is a great horned owl who lives in my trees. I've seen him swoop down and take both cats and rabbits who were bigger than that dog. He flat wouldn't be safe here.
> 
> Enjoy your smaller shepherds people. But I'm going to go for the big one every time.


What on earth does this have to so with a GSD intimidating a potential intruder? It's not as if a human can swoop down and take a GSD, for cryin' out loud!

Could probably shoot it, in which case size would be completely irrelevant. :crazy:


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## Curtis (Jun 9, 2013)

Some people know that their dog is overweight, yet continue to overfeed anyway. 

This reminds me of an extreme case about a Dachshund named Obie. The owners fed him until he couldn't walk. 

A woman rescued him and rehabilitated him. Worst case I've read about.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

@Sunflowers :thumbup:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Curtis said:


> Some people know that their dog is overweight, yet continue to overfeed anyway.
> 
> This reminds me of an extreme case about a Dachshund named Obie. The owners fed him until he couldn't walk.
> 
> A woman rescued him and rehabilitated him. Worst case I've read about.


Yeah, Obie had to have skin reduction surgery and is doing great.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=575084022568798&set=vb.352732954803907&type=2&theater


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> This is America (for most of us at least). Bigger = Better. Big trucks, big firework shows, big steaks, big dogs.


Yep. I am not sure why, but America loves extremes. Big dogs have to be HUGE, the bigger the better. Toy dogs have to be teeny tiny pocket-sized pets, the smaller the better. I will never understand this reasoning or obsession with size.

Perhaps it has to do with Americans' obsession with their own body size. Women have to be teeny tiny skinny things, men have to be huge musclebound brutes. I think it's all rather silly.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Deterrence isn't going to help against predators...I know a little chi who has more personality and cajones than many bigger dogs. That would not keep him safe from the coyotes & raptors in my area. There is a great horned owl who lives in my trees. I've seen him swoop down and take both cats and rabbits who were bigger than that dog. He flat wouldn't be safe here.
> 
> Enjoy your smaller shepherds people. But I'm going to go for the big one every time.


And this Great Horned Owl is going to swoop down and pick up a standard-sized ~70 lb GSD?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

If a dog is overweight it's not fair nor healthy for the dog. It is not easy getting them back down to where they should be , but it's necessary. When my golden got up to a hundred pounds he looked awful, ran crooked when he did run, which wasn't often because of his weight. I felt awful. We ruled out thyroid and hit the trails and changed foods . It took a few months and lots of sad looks from him because he was hungry, but I stood firm. He is down to 80 pounds or so, looks good and most importantly he can run and play without issues. Midnite is probably where he should be for his frame, but I want him healthy and I won't sacrifice that.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Deterrence isn't going to help against predators...I know a little chi who has more personality and cajones than many bigger dogs. That would not keep him safe from the coyotes & raptors in my area. There is a great horned owl who lives in my trees. I've seen him swoop down and take both cats and rabbits who were bigger than that dog. He flat wouldn't be safe here.
> 
> Enjoy your smaller shepherds people. But I'm going to go for the big one every time.


Lol I'd love to see the day an owl picks up my dog. Or the day I leave my dog anywhere to fend for itself against predators, as a matter of fact. It's a domesticated animal. Shouldn't be outside fighting with coyotes anyways, but that's a topic for another thread. 

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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> Lol I'd love to see the day an owl picks up my dog.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Maybe there are oversized owls that we don't know about.


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## lovemygirl (Jan 19, 2014)

My girl has the opposite problem. Big, long bones and she 'prefers' to weigh about 65lb, which the vet says is a 3.5 on a scale of 1-10 where 1 is severely underweight and 10 is severely overweight. I can occasionally get her up to 80lb, where she looks like a real dog, but it seems like once she hits that she will under-eat until she gets back to 65lb. Never have heard of a dog like this!!! I wish she'd at least stay around 75lb - she looks more solid.


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## fredh (Sep 10, 2013)

llombardo said:


> If a dog is overweight it's not fair nor healthy for the dog. It is not easy getting them back down to where they should be , but it's necessary. When my golden got up to a hundred pounds he looked awful, ran crooked when he did run, which wasn't often because of his weight. I felt awful. We ruled out thyroid and hit the trails and changed foods . It took a few months and lots of sad looks from him because he was hungry, but I stood firm. He is down to 80 pounds or so, looks good and most importantly he can run and play without issues. Midnite is probably where he should be for his frame, but I want him healthy and I won't sacrifice that.


Good Job with your Golden. Just went thought the same thing with Jake, dropped from 103 to 83 in 4 months. Its like I got a New Dog!


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## havery (Jan 1, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> Lol I'd love to see the day an owl picks up my dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I actually had an owl try to pick up a GSD hybrid puppy I had as a teenager. The puppy was all of a tiny 5 weeks old (the mother abandoned them & I bottle fed him from a week old). I've never seen such a tiny aggressive little thing, he was all teeth! Those sharp little puppy teeth caught a hold of the owls toe and the owl let go with a quickness. It all happened in the span of 5 seconds before I could reach them, I was shaking, terrified, but that puppy was wagging his tail, proud of himself. Crazy little butthead thought it was a game...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

fredh said:


> Good Job with your Golden. Just went thought the same thing with Jake, dropped from 103 to 83 in 4 months. Its like I got a New Dog!


Nice job on your end too!! Midnite is going to be harder and it's going to take longer, but I'll take the challenge


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

havery said:


> I actually had an owl try to pick up a GSD hybrid puppy I had as a teenager. The puppy was all of a tiny 5 weeks old (the mother abandoned them & I bottle fed him from a week old). I've never seen such a tiny aggressive little thing, he was all teeth! Those sharp little puppy teeth caught a hold of the owls toe and the owl let go with a quickness. It all happened in the span of 5 seconds before I could reach them, I was shaking, terrified, but that puppy was wagging his tail, proud of himself. Crazy little butthead thought it was a game...


An owl tried grabbing my golden puppy and he was like 3 months old, so not exactly tiny. Midnite was in the process of running to play with the puppy and the owl swooped back up. Minute has no idea, but he probably saved my golden from lots of pain. I don't think the owl would have been able to hold the pup but I'm sure either the fall from being dropped and/or the claws would have done some damage.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> First of all, you can't make a statement about what no one wants. Plenty of operators are using smaller dogs, by choice.
> 
> The bite strength of a larger dog is greater due to larger head size, but honestly, 55 lbs. or 90 lbs - it's going to hurt... a lot.
> 
> ...


that is why i MADE SURE to put avg pet owner because i know a lot of dogs used for work are small because of stamina, easier to carry if injured, fit into small spaces, etc. but the average owner doesnt care about that stuff. they rather have a bigger and more intimidating dog.

yes i said bigger = more intimidating. if you had a 90 lb dog and a 55 lb dog both staring intently at you, you're saying you would choose to engage the bigger one? if they were both snarling and barking, you would choose to engage the bigger one? c'mon please....

bigger is more intimidating because bigger = more damage. that has everything to do with physics. a bigger jaw means higher bite force. a 90 lb dog has a better chance of crushing your forearm than a 55 lb dog. an average 180 lb man can punch harder than a 155 lb man. thats just simple physics. to tell me a small dog can do just as much damage is silly. 

if i was hiking and came on a coyote and had the choice of a 90 lb dog defending me and a 55 lb dog i'd choose the bigger dog every time just because theres a higher chance it could take down the coyote.

so what if a 55 lb dog can hit hard at 30mph? who said a small dog doesnt hit hard? a 90 lb dog going 25 can hit even harder. who said a small dog cant do damage? if any of you read correctly, the post i quoted said a small dog is more intimidating and powerful and "probably more so". sorry but that isnt true. its actually hilariously not true. bigger is more powerful and intimidating. are you more scared of an assault rifle or a pistol? would you rather run head on with a honda civic or a chevy f150?


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## sschwaben (Aug 20, 2013)

Ambros is now 8 months old and is a big boy. He is pretty tall and weighed 86 pounds a couple weeks ago. Im sure he might get alittle heavier as he is only 8 months, but he isn't over weight. He is healthy and looks great. We didn't know how big he would get when we got him at 8 weeks, and personally I don't care if he is 60 pounds or 110 pounds as long as he is healthy and happy. His parents were both bigger ( he was 102 and she was 85) and personally Ambros can stay where he is now as long as he is healthy. Bigger isn't always better if the dog is overweight and not healthy.


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## sschwaben (Aug 20, 2013)

Also as for speed and quickness, my brother has a lab mix who is about 60 pounds. He is full out faster then Ambros, but when it comes to playing and wrestling, Ambros is much quicker and and push my brothers dog around like he is nothing. Not to mention when they are playing tug of war or I am playing tug with them, Ambros is so much stronger and his bite is so much stronger, and they are only about 20 or 30 pounds apart.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

boomer11 said:


> that is why i MADE SURE to put avg pet owner because i know a lot of dogs used for work are small because of stamina, easier to carry if injured, fit into small spaces, etc. but the average owner doesnt care about that stuff. they rather have a bigger and more intimidating dog.
> 
> yes i said bigger = more intimidating. if you had a 90 lb dog and a 55 lb dog both staring intently at you, you're saying you would choose to engage the bigger one? if they were both snarling and barking, you would choose to engage the bigger one? c'mon please....
> 
> ...


Yes there is a difference between a Pomeranian and a GSD but when your dealing with dogs i would say 50#+ regardless if they break your forearm or not its going to be painful enough to frazzle your mind. And I truly believe smaller dogs know how to compensate for their lack of pure strength. A 90# GSD may be able to break bones but a 55# mali latched on and thrashing all 55# of its frame around will tear your skin with excruciating pain. As a detterent a bigger dog may be more intimidating but a dog's attitude has alot to do with it. I had a 100+ GSD that everyone would rush when we were out to pet him and he had the most tolerant dog i've ever come across but huge. But people could sense he was a teddy bear and that elicited the types of responses he got from people. I had a 72# male that NO ONE approached and always gave us a wide berth (he was unapproachable and people can sense that and would cross the street to avoid us. He was not a correct GSD but he was who he was). Now, I have a 92# GSD that I'm still waiting to grow up (been waiting 6 long years lol) and is a puppy at heart but when we go out he could care less about other people but many people stop to stare or to ask questions about him. But funnily enough rarely does someone ask to pet him, they will however approach us to conversate (something that never happened with my 72#) and to ask questions about him. People are alot smarter than we give them credit for and intimidation goes with personality and character not size. My 100+ GSD gave the impression that he was approachable friendly and confident, my 72# gave the impression that he was not approachable and will bite for real if they tried anything (and people were fearful) and my current boy gives the impression that he is approachable but most people dont feel the urge to pet him (I see that as a healthy respect). Just watching peoples reactions to my different dogs shows me how perceptive most people can be and attitude not size determines their course of action (most times not ALL).


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> that is why i MADE SURE to put avg pet owner because i know a lot of dogs used for work are small because of stamina, easier to carry if injured, fit into small spaces, etc. but the average owner doesnt care about that stuff. they rather have a bigger and more intimidating dog.
> 
> yes i said bigger = more intimidating. if you had a 90 lb dog and a 55 lb dog both staring intently at you, you're saying you would choose to engage the bigger one? if they were both snarling and barking, you would choose to engage the bigger one? c'mon please....
> 
> ...


Lol this whole concept is funny. You're telling me that the bigger dog will always bite harder and thats just scientifically not true. A 30lb Pit bull will bite harder than a 90lb Labrador any day of the week. Size wouldn't make a difference there at all, would it?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> that is why i MADE SURE to put avg pet owner because i know a lot of dogs used for work are small because of stamina, easier to carry if injured, fit into small spaces, etc. but the average owner doesnt care about that stuff. they rather have a bigger and more intimidating dog.
> 
> And that's why I said, in my opening statement, that operators were selecting smaller dogs, not average pet owners, to immediately specify the subject of my post; people that use a dog as a weapon regularly. I also stated that they make this choice for the reasons you stated above, but also because of the protection work of which they are capable.
> 
> ...



Would you rather fight John Goodman or George St-Pierre?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> Lol this whole concept is funny. You're telling me that the bigger dog will always bite harder and thats just scientifically not true. A 30lb Pit bull will bite harder than a 90lb Labrador any day of the week. Size wouldn't make a difference there at all, would it?


sorry i thought the title and purpose of this thread was about large sized german shepherds....


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Would you rather fight John Goodman or George St-Pierre?


lol are you serious? thats an unfair comparison. one has skill and the other is just big. thats like asking me would i rather engage a 100 lb shepherd with its tongue hanging out or a 55 lb dog intensely staring at me. thats has nothing to do with size but with skill/temperment. 

a more fair comparison is would you rather fight floyd mayweather or ali? would you rather fight pacquiao or tyson? (btw i had to google how john goodman was lol)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> yes i said bigger = more intimidating. if you had a 90 lb dog and a 55 lb dog both staring intently at you, you're saying you would choose to engage the bigger one?


I'll tell you right now, I am not afraid of dogs. But I'd be far more afraid of a 55 lb Chow than I would be of a 90 lb. Golden.

I know we're talking about GSDs, but the point is that a smaller dog can be a LOT more intimidating than a larger one, for a plethora of reasons.



> bigger is more intimidating because bigger = more damage.


That's the general impression that people have, but it's not necessarily true. Bite force and damage has a lot more to do with the temperament, attitude, and intent of the dog than the size. Yes, if you took two dogs of equal temperament, the 200 lb. Mastiff is going to have more bite force than a 55 lb. Malinois, because the Mastiff has larger jaw muscles. But size alone doesn't mean anything. 

The size of your dog, truck, boat, house, etc. may be an ego booster, and it might make you *feel* more secure, but lemmie tell ya... where the rubber meets the road, size is NOT the most important thing. 

But if having the biggest things makes you feel better, well, it's a free country.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> lol are you serious? thats an unfair comparison. one has skill and the other is just big. thats like asking me would i rather engage a 100 lb shepherd with its tongue hanging out or a 55 lb dog intensely staring at me. thats has nothing to do with size but with skill/temperment.
> 
> a more fair comparison is would you rather fight floyd mayweather or ali? would you rather fight pacquiao or tyson? (btw i had to google how john goodman was lol)


Yes I'm serious. It's about the temperament, attitude and training on the dog, not the size. You said it yourself, "that has nothing to do with size."

Whatever type dog intimidates you is your personal opinion. I see no reason that the general public should share that opinion, my opinion, or any opinion but their own. I have seen through experience that many people are very intimidated by a smaller GSD, and more so than a larger dog with a softer expression. Your personal opinion and experience may differ. I'm certainly not arguing that at all. I'm not arguing that your opinion is wrong, just that it is not shared by everyone, specifically myself and many operators that I know.

You chose not to answer any of my questions, or reply to most of my post, so I see no reason to answer yours. 

I'll try again.

How many fights have you been in with a dog? No equipment, on the street, real battles.


Another important point is that just because a dog can physically bite harder, doesn't mean that it will. 

... and I think that bulldogs are more relevant to the conversation than automobiles, firearms or boxers.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

SuperG said:


> I've only been in this forum for less than a year and I have come to discover, all too many GSD owners are so caught up in having a BIG dog,


THIS forum? Really? This forum is extremely anti-oversized german shepherd.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

*hypothetically* if I were going to break into someone's house I would be deterred by the smaller and faster gsd with more endurance because it would be harder to shoot and could more easily chase me down and jump over fences and wriggle under parked cars to drag me out. If, however, the circumstances were very specific, like, say if I was going to be locked in a small space without a gun to face a gsd one on one - well, in that scenario, I would probably choose the smaller gsd to fight. 

So, in conclusion, my personal opinion is: for most scenarios the smaller gsd is scarier. For the once in a lifetime "**** in a cell" cage match, the larger gsd is scarier.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm we got Owls and (Cat killing A Hole) Chows in here now! But getting back on topic, there is difference between a GSD that is over size and a dogs that just plain fat!

I mean the Docky? Come on, come on!  What did the owner look like?  Who in there right mind could consider that normal!

My Rocky is a 117lbs now (7 yrs old) we got him as a puppy at 7 months and he was a big puppy and he's not been over fed and exercises daily. He's just a big dog.

I'm reasonably fit but there is no way I could lift him if I had to he's just to big. I can understand why the working GSD's are the size they are.

Rocky's a pet, but I don't think the K9 officers around here are to concerned about the general public walking up to there 75 or 85 lb GSD's slapping them in the face and calling their dog's skinny!

Regardless of size GSD's have earned there rep!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Most of this is ridiculous in regards to the avg pet owner. Other than size, everything else being equal, physical condition, temperament, and training, both could do more than adequate job of deterring and engaging some home intruder or whatever big bad (sorry could be little too) person out to do you harm. Thankfully most of us will never have to deal with it. Lol! john goodman, sheez


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

At least he's a mammal LOL

David Winners


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

oh sorry i thought we were talking about size as an intimidation factor. the op was about why so many people like large shepherds. if you wanna add temperment then of course the demeanor/attitude of the dog is more important than size. 

to answer you david, no i have not been in any fights with any dogs. heck a pomeranian snarling and barking is enough to scare me. but why do i have to be in a fight with a dog to understand simple physics?? do i have to stand there and let both pacquaio and tyson punch me to understand that tyson punches much harder?? what was your point?

also you completely missed the point about my coyote post. my point is a 90 lb gsd is more capable of taking down a coyote just because it is more powerful than a 55 lb shepherd. of course i wouldnt take a gsd to hunt coyotes lol.

if you shepherds of different sizes sat there and stare at you and you did not know their temperment, you would be more intimidated by the smaller one? 

no one ever said a small shepherd cant take down a man or cant cause damage or cant defend its home. the entire thread was about why people want large shepherds and to me, without knowing a dogs temperment and just looking at it, a large shepherd is more intimidating than a smaller one. the average pet owners want a dog to guard their house/protect them so they want dog that LOOKS more intimidating (which is the 90 lb shepherd). for people who work their dogs, looks arent as important as usefulness. 

btw my dog tops out at 75 lbs at most. im not for or against 100+ lb dogs. i just find it funny that people actually think a 55 lb shepherd is just as powerful as a 90 lb one


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## Prima (Jan 19, 2014)

More or less I understand the standard to be 60-70lbs for a female and 75-85lbs for a male. 

The thread turned towards the topic of protection with respect to size, and for that, drives are what matter most- but for two dogs with equal civil drives, the larger of the two will be more effective. In a purely superficial manner, I have observed people to be more afraid of a darker colored dog rather than lighter. 

A heavier gsd is prone to joint problems. I personally prefer the males not to top 85lbs.

Pet owners usually have far too much weight on their gsds regardless. The last rib should be clearly seen from a vantage above the dog with the "waist" even smaller before the hips.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Most of this is ridiculous in regards to the avg pet owner. Other than size, everything else being equal, physical condition, temperament, and training, both could do more than adequate job of deterring and engaging some home intruder or whatever big bad (sorry could be little too) person out to do you harm. Thankfully most of us will never have to deal with it. Lol! john goodman, sheez


Average pet owner here. I want the big dog. I don't want him to protect me from people, only deter coyotes from coming into my yard. The smaller dog won't do that.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Lol this whole concept is funny. You're telling me that the bigger dog will always bite harder and thats just scientifically not true. A 30lb Pit bull will bite harder than a 90lb Labrador any day of the week. Size wouldn't make a difference there at all, would it?


Actually that is just not true. 

"On average, dogs bite with 320 pounds of pressure per square inch. The bite
pressure of a German Shepherd, an Americal Pit Bull Terrier, and a Rottweiler were tested.
The American Pit Bull Terrier had the least amount of bite pressure of the three dogs tested.

Dr. Brady Barr, National Geographic "


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Boomer, when did you become such an expert on GSDs and dogs on that you think you can challenge someone like David?

A few months ago you were scared of your own 5-month-old pup.:crazy:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/337378-help-my-5-month-pup-scares-me.html






boomer11 said:


> oh sorry i thought we were talking about size as an intimidation factor. the op was about why so many people like large shepherds. if you wanna add temperment then of course the demeanor/attitude of the dog is more important than size.
> 
> to answer you david, no i have not been in any fights with any dogs. heck a pomeranian snarling and barking is enough to scare me. but why do i have to be in a fight with a dog to understand simple physics?? do i have to stand there and let both pacquaio and tyson punch me to understand that tyson punches much harder?? what was your point?
> 
> ...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Freestep said:


> And this Great Horned Owl is going to swoop down and pick up a standard-sized ~70 lb GSD?



No what my 90# GSD is going to do is to deter the owl from swooping down to get my smaller dogs. Just as he deters the coyotes from coming into my yard. Because he is big and scary and no one wants to mess with him. Unless you are a kid or a puppy then he is a big teddy bear.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Average pet owner here. I want the big dog. I don't want him to protect me from people, only deter coyotes from coming into my yard. The smaller dog won't do that.


Not true, my in laws live on over 2000 acres in Iowa....have always had female labs as deterrents to coyotes (they are on their fourth). Never been over 65 pounds, and never more than one at a time. I've been there and watched their girl Suzy, MAYBE 60 pounds, chase off a PACK of coyotes. She just died at 14 years old. You keep telling yourself THAT's why you want/need a large dog. It isn't really necessary though, even for your specific task. 

Bigger doesn't mean anything, better OR worse. Both can do the job you are speaking of if proper drives, temperament and personality are there. Only the larger ones may only be able to do their "job" until 8-10 years old. I'm willing to bet coyotes can sense if a large dog is a push over, nerve bag, that will turn tail and run. I doubt the coyotes go by size, more by the "feelings" they get from the dog they might be challenging. Coyotes (any wild dog) are EXTREMELY skittish. It's what evolution has determined to be the most effective reaction, running away. It doesn't take much to chase them away as long as the dog isn't tea-cup size, obviously.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Boomer, when did you become such an expert on GSDs and dogs on that you think you can challenge someone like David?
> 
> A few months ago you were scared of your own 5-month-old pup.:crazy:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/337378-help-my-5-month-pup-scares-me.html


HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA AHAHAHAHAHA what an elitist attitude. i freaking love it! i guess the more post you have the less people can "challenge" you? i didnt know david was the lord savior himself. my opinion is my opinion. im sorry that i disagree with someone. please forgive me! i have a lot of admiration for david and i know he has a lot of knowledge (especially in terms of bomb dogs) but NO ONE knows everything. i dont think david is elitist but you definitely are. again i do apologize for having an opinion. 

btw that was my sister when she had to take care of my pup while i was in the hospital after a car crash. BUT even if that was me. does it mean i suddenly cannot have an opinion?? i cant explain simple physics? hahahaha your elitist post actually made me laugh out loud.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Not true, my in laws live on over 2000 acres in Iowa....have always had female labs as deterrents to coyotes (they are on their fourth). Never been over 65 pounds, and never more than one at a time. I've been there and watched their girl Suzy, MAYBE 60 pounds, chase off a PACK of coyotes. She just died at 14 years old. You keep telling yourself THAT's why you want/need a large dog. It isn't really necessary though, even for your specific task.
> 
> Bigger doesn't mean anything, better OR worse. .


Apparently Iowa coyotes are not as nasty and big as Arizona and Nevada coyotes. A 65# dog would be coyote food. 

Bigger does means better as far as I'm concerned on GSD's. That's the dog I want, that is the breeder I and many many other GSD owners support. You will not change that.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It is the rest of us who are laughing at you, kid.
You make yourself out to be an expert, but you know less than I do, and I freely admit I know very little.

A couple of months ago you doubted you could get your dog through a CGC test.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-toughest-part-canine-good-citizens-test.html


Yes. I called you out.
People should know the source, when "experts" post on the Internet.


PS-- oh, and of course that wasn't you. Your sister has your password. Right.






boomer11 said:


> HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAA AHAHAHAHAHA what an elitist attitude. i freaking love it! i guess the more post you have the less people can "challenge" you? i didnt know david was the lord savior himself. my opinion is my opinion. im sorry that i disagree with someone. please forgive me! i have a lot of admiration for david and i know he has a lot of knowledge (especially in terms of bomb dogs) but NO ONE knows everything. i dont think david is elitist but you definitely are. again i do apologize for having an opinion.
> 
> btw that was my sister when she had to take care of my pup while i was in the hospital after a car crash. BUT even if that was me. does it mean i suddenly cannot have an opinion?? i cant explain simple physics? hahahaha your elitist post actually made me laugh out loud.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> What on earth does this have to so with a GSD intimidating a potential intruder? It's not as if a human can swoop down and take a GSD, for cryin' out loud!
> 
> Could probably shoot it, in which case size would be completely irrelevant. :crazy:


Intruders do not have to be human. Large size GSD's deter wildlife when a smaller dog would not. People intruders I'll deter myself. I don't need my dog for that.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> You make yourself out to be an expert, but you know less than I do, and I freely admit I know very little.
> .


this is what the definition of elitist is. again i do apologize for having an opinion that a large shepherd is more intimidating than a smaller one. how did i make myself out to be an expert?? where? 

hahaha so funny. the "experts" just cant stand it when people who know less than them have a differing opinion can they??


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> PS-- oh, and of course that wasn't you. Your sister has your password. Right.


actually queen sunflower with your 6000+ posts, she doesnt need to know my password. when you go to the website i'm automatically logged in. but of course you know everything so i'm going to stop trying to make my points. wouldnt want to "challenge" you.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Apparently Iowa coyotes are not as nasty and big as Arizona and Nevada coyotes. A 65# dog would be coyote food.


The coyotes here in southern California usually only pick on the smaller dogs. They will run right up as the dogs are being leashed walked and take them. They are not scared of people. I have heard they will work as a pack to try and get larger dogs, but I haven't heard any stories on dogs being killed or attacked in that way. My trainer said she saw her GSD running with three coyotes, but she called him back and he came. The coyotes didn't try to stop him. My grandfathers dog used to run with the coyotes at night. He didn't have a fence then, but he always came home. The coyotes never hurt him, but he did get bitten by a snake once. As a side note: I would not be comfortable with coyotes around my dogs. 

Now mountain lions will go for just about anything. An 80lb lab was killed by one in Glendale.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Everyone has different expectations for their dog. This thread has shown that many people utilize their dogs in different ways, even if it is only for appearance. What I do with my dogs is far different than the average person, so my opinion is certainly skewed towards real protection with a suitable dog. 

The only thing I truly disagree with is for anyone, myself included, to make generalized statements about what other people prefer. I know what I like, and I have formed that opinion through years of experience. That doesn't mean my opinion is any more right than anyone elses. It is subjective.

I say that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they are also entitled to purchase the dog that they feel will most likely meet their expectations. 

I wish everyone the best in finding that dog.


P.S. boomer11, I have less posts than you BTW


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## Black Kali (Aug 31, 2013)

Freestep said:


> Yep. I am not sure why, but America loves extremes. Big dogs have to be HUGE, the bigger the better. Toy dogs have to be teeny tiny pocket-sized pets, the smaller the better. I will never understand this reasoning or obsession with size.
> 
> Perhaps it has to do with Americans' obsession with their own body size. Women have to be teeny tiny skinny things, men have to be huge musclebound brutes. I think it's all rather silly.


Not sure that has anything to do with specific country, more with people in general. I have 26" tall female, 80 pounds... and for most people, in my country, she looks small


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> actually queen sunflower with your 6000+ posts, she doesnt need to know my password. when you go to the website i'm automatically logged in. but of course you know everything so i'm going to stop trying to make my points. wouldnt want to "challenge" you.


Well, what a coincidence, that she also posts without using any capital letters.
Must run in the family.

I hope "she" has stopped slamming your dog around.
If anything, my post count shows how little I know. Because people who know a lot are out there training their dogs, and don't need to be here reading and asking questions.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> P.S. boomer11, I have less posts than you BTW


hahhaha true. but your posts carry a lot more weight than mine so honestly you have about 3x more posts than i do. i know you have real world experience working dogs and i REALLY REALLY enjoyed reading about fama and was disappointed when i couldnt find more posts. with that said, i find it ridiculous that someone said i couldnt have my own opinion since your so knowledgable and people like me should just listen.

sunflower since you know everything, tell me where i said i was an expert? or listed all these years of experience i have? if only you could see some of the pm's people sent me when i called you an elitist......


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> hahhaha true. but your posts carry a lot more weight than mine so honestly you have about 3x more posts than i do. i know you have real world experience working dogs and i REALLY REALLY enjoyed reading about fama and was disappointed when i couldnt find more posts. with that said, i find it ridiculous that someone said i couldnt have my own opinion since your so knowledgable and people like me should just listen.
> 
> sunflower since you know everything, tell me where i said i was an expert? or listed all these years of experience i have? if only you could see some of the pm's people sent me when i called you an elitist......


Of course I know everything! That is exactly what I said!
And to see your experience, all we have to do is look up your old posts.

Do forward those PMs. I would be delighted to see them.


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## Sookie (Aug 28, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> hahhaha true. but your posts carry a lot more weight than mine so honestly you have about 3x more posts than i do. i know you have real world experience working dogs and i REALLY REALLY enjoyed reading about fama and was disappointed when i couldnt find more posts. with that said, i find it ridiculous that someone said i couldnt have my own opinion since your so knowledgable and people like me should just listen.
> 
> sunflower since you know everything, tell me where i said i was an expert? or listed all these years of experience i have? if only you could see some of the pm's people sent me when i called you an elitist......


I think this is starting to get personal and mean. I don't like it.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Ding Ding" round two pick a corner and come out swinging! Just kidding" I don't want to fight with anyone! That said" I like a big dog in shape muscles tone. For home protection I like power" I want my dog doing the man handling! Not that a smaller dog can't! But everything being equal the bigger is more powerful! For police work or military the smaller is better" faster more endurance! Harder target! They both everything equal" are great dogs! J.m.o. don't want to make anyone mad.an old saying! A good little man will beat a big man every time! But a good big man will beat a good little man all the time! Guess. That's why they have weight classes! I think it depends on the dog or man! Everyone have a great night! Bill


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

David Winners said:


> Everyone has different expectations for their dog. This thread has shown that many people utilize their dogs in different ways, even if it is only for appearance. What I do with my dogs is far different than the average person, so my opinion is certainly skewed towards real protection with a suitable dog.
> 
> The only thing I truly disagree with is for anyone, myself included, to make generalized statements about what other people prefer. I know what I like, and I have formed that opinion through years of experience. That doesn't mean my opinion is any more right than anyone elses. It is subjective.
> 
> ...


Totally agree, I'm glad there are big and small GSDs so everyone can get the GSD that they want  Well said!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am not mad at all. It was the tone of the posts that got to me, considering the source.
There's nothing wrong with stating your opinion, and doing it respectfully.
I have a really big problem with people who question the comprehension skills of someone who happens to disagree.
Not that Winners needs anyone to stick up for him, LOL.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> *Apparently Iowa coyotes are not as nasty and big as Arizona and Nevada coyotes*. A 65# dog would be coyote food.
> 
> Bigger does means better as far as I'm concerned on GSD's. That's the dog I want, that is the breeder I and many many other GSD owners support. You will not change that.


Lol to the part in bold. You keep telling yourself that. 

To the part in blue, yeah I can't "fix ignorance" either...but that doesn't mean I have to sit by and not try and educate people. I will always talk about breed standards, what size compromises when it comes to health, and not sit quietly by when people make huge generalizations like "a 65 pound dog would be coyote meat." I would argue, not. 

I really don't care what you think, your rescue your dogs, aren't supporting breeders breeding above the standard to those that want everything their way. Until I see a 100 lb + "old world german shepherd" that isn't terrified of someone running at them, I will continue my jaded opinion that the breeders breeding large, over sized, shepherds, are also breeding dogs below standard in temperament as well(nervy, low confidence, low drive, etc when compared to the standard).

I would like to see an article or testimony about a coyote "walking up and taking a dog from a person who is walking it on a leash." Honestly, that's crazy, and I'd like to read about it.

The African Wild Dogs I helped care for at the zoo were large-ish, (females 70 pounds, males between 80-90...but def larger than your killer Arizona coyotes). They were terrified of everything, very jumpy, and almost anyone/anything could spook them if it wasn't prey size (bunny size). Wild animals, except special cases of disease or starvation (which at that point nothing but a bullet in the head really deters them), are generally extremely skittish. However, Hollywood would have you believe every animal in the wild is just counting down the minutes until it can jump and eat you. That just isn't the case.

Edit: My point is, I'm sure I can find articles of "large" dogs being killed by packs of coyotes....I would argue once you get to the 50 pound mark and above, your dog is a pretty good deterrent. An "average" standard GSD of 75-85 pounds, would be just as scary to your killer arizona coyotes as a 120 pound shepherd. The coyote doesn't stop and say, "wait...that GSD is 100 pounds...lets go to the house with the GSD that's 80 pounds." lol The coyote is going to kill the cat at the house with no dog.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i am also not mad. it was the elitist attitude from someone who wasnt even a part of the discussion that got me. how dare i challenge someone. haahahahah


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> I would like to see an article or testimony about a coyote "walking up and taking a dog from a person who is walking it on a leash." Honestly, that's crazy, and I'd like to read about it.


here you go! Coyote kills on-leash dog; Santa Clarita residents on alert - Los Angeles Times

i agree coyotes are skittish and arent looking for a fight. they are looking for prey. i think most gsd's are safe. its the ankle biting chihuahua's that are in danger.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> I would like to see an article or testimony about a coyote "walking up and taking a dog from a person who is walking it on a leash." Honestly, that's crazy, and I'd like to read about it.


Coyote attacks Laguna Woods woman, kills dog | abc7.com

Seven coyotes killed after attacks on dogs in Laguna Woods - latimes.com

that is just one city, it happens in many cities is Southern California, but there are two articles you can read. If you are really interested in more the search took maybe 5 seconds.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Here's another one:
Coyotes Attack Woman, Steal Dog In Laguna Woods « CBS Los Angeles


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Those articles are crazy. I stand by my point though, once you hit the 50 pound mark or above, I really think the dog is a deterrent.

The story about the GSD running with a pack of coyotes is crazy! I would be so stunned lol.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> if you shepherds of different sizes sat there and stare at you and you did not know their temperment, you would be more intimidated by the smaller one?


 Honestly, if I was confronted by a 60 lb GSD and a 140 lb. GSD, I'd be more worried about the smaller one. I've noticed a lot of working line GSDs tend to be on the smaller end of the standard, so I might think this could be a dog bred for strong temperament. Whereas a 140 lb GSD is either so obese I could probably outrun him, or he's one of those "oversize old fashion" bred dogs that probably doesn't have the temperament, courage or drive to actually attack. A working line dog, on the other hand, could have some real aggression, and not be afraid to use it.

The smaller dog would probably be quicker, and more agile, and able to chase me over a fence or up a tree. 

But in the end, it's all about attitude rather than size. I'd be more afraid of the dog whose behavior and body language indicated he was serious and not afraid to attack.


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## Prima (Jan 19, 2014)

A few here are contending that a smaller gsd is going to be faster and more agile. I beg to differ re this assumption. 

A properly proportioned gsd should theoretically be faster on the larger end than the smaller end of the spectrum. We cannot compare Husain Bolt to a Woody Allen, right? The power of the musculature and the reach of the legs are going to make a huge impact on a dogs ability to move. 

A 90lb male can out run and outlast a 60lb female hands down, all the time, and every day.

Again, PROPORTION is key. 

So, although the breed standard should be respected, a 100lb male is not a defacto arthritic (or nervy) sloth.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK, trying to keep score. So far we have Owls, (cat killing ) Chows, Boxers (people not the dogs) and now Coyotes. And I guess character attacks for good measure? 

But to try and pull this thread back on topic, I like my big old oversize GSD, he looks cool and he's a pet.

If I were looking for a GSD to do GSD work my standards would be different. But BYB's can do a lot of damage to the line. BYB have pretty much destroyed the life span of Boxers, these days they are pretty much a 10 year dog if your lucky.

So there is a bit more there than just Big ole GSD's!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Prima said:


> A few here are contending that a smaller gsd is going to be faster and more agile. I beg to differ re this assumption.
> 
> A properly proportioned gsd should theoretically be faster on the larger end than the smaller end of the spectrum. We cannot compare Husain Bolt to a Woody Allen, right? The power of the musculature and the reach of the legs are going to make a huge impact on a dogs ability to move.
> 
> ...


very true. less weight doesnt automatically make you fast. having more muscle to accelerate plays a big part. having longer bones also helps. 

of course being big and fast means it takes more to stop and change direction. so a smaller dog is more agile but not necessarily faster.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

shepherdmom said:


> Intruders do not have to be human. Large size GSD's deter wildlife when a smaller dog would not. People intruders I'll deter myself. I don't need my dog for that.


Legitimate question, so don't take it the wrong way, but have you ever considered going with another breed specifically suited for that kind of work that you're looking for in a dog? Like a guarding breed that's supposed to be that size? An irish wolfhound for example or something similar?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If you are speaking to me, it wasn't an assumption. I base my opinion on dogs I have worked, trained and observed. Your experience obviously differs from mine.

"A 90lb male can out run and outlast a 60lb female hands down, all the time, and every day."

There are a lot more factors that go into this statement than the proportions of the dog IMO.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I think the views on this board are skewed. 

Those if us with working knowledge of GSD, those of us that train daily, work dogs, see working dogs are going to have a very different perspective than " the average owner".

The average owner is not on thus board researching lines, checking breeders, watching top dog on you tube. The average owners sees a dog on the street and reacts. The average owner/mail person/crook, looks into a yard and sees a 210lb English mastiff and freaks. 

Size is a deterrent. Wether warranted or not. It is. To pretend it's not is unrealistic. Those of us that know it makes no difference are in the minority. Those of us that educate ourselves are again, in the minority. 

If I was a common crook, and I had the choice between attacking the little woman with a calm 60 lb GSD or a little woman with a 120 lb GSD that's going crazy at the end if the leash. I would pick the former. As an educated dog behavior person, I would pick the latter. But most people are not educated in dog behavior. Most people equate size with power and strength they are wrong, but it is what it is. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I think the views on this board are skewed.
> 
> Those if us with working knowledge of GSD, those of us that train daily, work dogs, see working dogs are going to have a very different perspective than " the average owner".
> 
> ...


Nice post :thumbup:


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Prima said:


> A few here are contending that a smaller gsd is going to be faster and more agile. I beg to differ re this assumption.
> 
> A properly proportioned gsd should theoretically be faster on the larger end than the smaller end of the spectrum. We cannot compare Husain Bolt to a Woody Allen, right? The power of the musculature and the reach of the legs are going to make a huge impact on a dogs ability to move.
> 
> ...


No. Physiologically, this is not correct. Please read below, from a physiological standpoint. Giants, in any species, have shorter lives, lower endurance, lower physiological thresholds, and higher rate of health issues. Any extreme is not good. Great Danes, perfectly proportioned, and within their standard, live shorter lives (8-9 years), have many health problems related to hearts, and are effected in many ways, purely due to size. Olympians, are not giants. Many maintain very small bodies, because nature knows that to keep doing the level of competitiveness that the body is competing at, small is better.

Sorry, your part in bold is just incorrect. Larger size limits endurance, it's science...small is better for endurance and speed. Proper proportion has nothing to do with it. Striking power, yes, higher weight will HIT harder...but it will not outlast or outrun. There is a reason there are very few giants in any species, or that race cars aren't the size of semi trucks.

"Physical size exercises great influence on ability to move, for with increase of size, weight grows more in proportion than the strength available for movement, which depends on the density of the muscles, and thereby suffers not only in that particular part of its service which demands endurance, but also in the suppleness of the body, and the power of making quick and sharp turns, sudden stops, and the surmounting of obstacles. Increased weight exercises as well a strong pressure on the supporting frame of the skeleton which affects the bones themselves, as well as the ligaments and muscles .... An excess of size is ... an unserviceable feature for breeding (because) his powers of endurance, his speed and the smartness of his movements suffer in all circumstances. Giants are never nimble.... Such dogs then use themselves up quickly when they are eager and full of ardor. They are, however, generally, lazy and easy-going and for that very reason are already unfit for service."


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> The story about the GSD running with a pack of coyotes is crazy! I would be so stunned lol.


I never said it was a GSD. It's just CRAZY how many people can't comprehend what they read...imo ...anyway, he was a larger mutt. Which only was mentioned, because he did go out running with them and they never tried to attack him as a pack. My grandfather lives on 5 acres with neighbors pretty far away, but they did complain about his dogs running free (which would have bothered me also) and he put a fence up. 

As for GSD size. I went with the standard with Kaleb.. Would I get a larger than standard GSD knowing what I do now? no, but I would have two years ago. Actually, I probably did a year ago. Riley was 75 pounds at 9 months. He was very tall. A wonderful dog who I miss a great deal. People are going to love the dogs they have and defend them and that's ok. The dogs are well loved as all dogs should be.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

David Winners said:


> Yes I'm serious. It's about the temperament, attitude and training on the dog, not the size. You said it yourself, "that has nothing to do with size."
> 
> Whatever type dog intimidates you is your personal opinion. I see no reason that the general public should share that opinion, my opinion, or any opinion but their own. I have seen through experience that many people are very intimidated by a smaller GSD, and more so than a larger dog with a softer expression. Your personal opinion and experience may differ. I'm certainly not arguing that at all. I'm not arguing that your opinion is wrong, just that it is not shared by everyone, specifically myself and many operators that I know.
> 
> ...




I'm with David on this one! Size has nothing to do with it. It's all about attitude and how the dog carries themselves. Same goes with the guy in the alley comment. It's all about how the person carries themselves. A 55 pound GSD that's pierces me with their eyes and with ears up, with a look that say's I'm gonna f*** you up is very intimidating. As for bite strength, I can assure you both bites hurt! The little ones can take someone down just as easy as well. Don't believe it? Tell it to the 200+ pound decoys that my 55 pound female has taken down. And those were guys expecting the hit. For all of you that think size= scary, you really need to get out and see more dogs.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> I think the views on this board are skewed.
> 
> Those if us with working knowledge of GSD, those of us that train daily, work dogs, see working dogs are going to have a very different perspective than " the average owner".
> 
> ...


You explained it more clearly and more elegantly in one post than I could in all my posts combined.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Dani if you actually read his post you would understand that a 90 lb Shepherd is not a giant. A 90 pound dog could be tall and slender. Like he said, it's about proportions. A giant would be 120 pounds. 90 pounds is barely above the high end of the breed standard.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

trcy said:


> I never said it was a GSD. It's just CRAZY how many people can't comprehend what they read...imo ...anyway, he was a larger mutt. Which only was mentioned, because he did go out running with them and they never tried to attack him as a pack. My grandfather lives on 5 acres with neighbors pretty far away, but they did complain about his dogs running free (which would have bothered me also) and he put a fence up.
> 
> As for GSD size. I went with the standard with Kaleb.. Would I get a larger than standard GSD knowing what I do now? no, but I would have two years ago. Actually, I probably did a year ago. Riley was 75 pounds at 9 months. He was very tall. A wonderful dog who I miss a great deal.* People are going to love the dogs they have and defend them and that's ok. The dogs are well loved as all dogs should be*.


Right back at you with that "will comprehend what they want to." I have NEVER implied there is anything wrong with OWNING an over-standard GSD. My issue has always been, and will always be with the BREEDERS BREEDING for oversized , above standard, GSD's, selling to the ignorant, and those defending those doing that breeding as "well it's want people want...so oh well." If we keep up that mentality (as we are) we will continue to destroy everything natural. That's all.

Forgive me for assuming it was a GSD on a GSD forum lol.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I think the views on this board are skewed.
> 
> Those if us with working knowledge of GSD, those of us that train daily, work dogs, see working dogs are going to have a very different perspective than " the average owner".
> 
> ...


Very well put!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> Dani if you actually read his post you would understand that a 90 lb Shepherd is not a giant. A 90 pound dog could be tall and slender. Like he said, it's about proportions. A giant would be 120 pounds. 90 pounds is barely above the high end of the breed standard.


I read his post, it said a "90 pound will outrun and outlast a 60 pound anywhere anytime." Implying that simply because of the weight/height increase it will outlast the lighter/shorter dog. That just isn't the case, nor is it that simple. The graph of size to endurance/speed is NOT exponential.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I think the views on this board are skewed.
> 
> Those if us with working knowledge of GSD, those of us that train daily, work dogs, see working dogs are going to have a very different perspective than " the average owner".
> 
> ...


 You make good points! We have to remember that the "average person" is a whole 'nuther animal than someone who works with dogs for a living.

I still hold that a 55 lb. dog can be just as intimidating as a 100 lb. dog, if not more so. Even the average crook can tell if a 55 lb. Malinois or ABPT means business (as opposed to a 100 lb. Golden) just by the dog's attitude and behavior. I doubt the crook would look at 55 pounds of teeth, muscle, and attitude and think "Well, he's only 55 lb, I think I can take him. If he were just a little heavier I'd walk away."


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Who gives a crap about intimidation. I've been working a 60 pound mal (maybe lighter I'm being generous he is smaller than my 62 pound 10 month old gsd/mal pup.) The dog is the nicest dog around people a real sweet heart and as soon as he gets activated he turns into a monster and bites hard and with hatred regardless of whether or not you're wearing visible equipment or even regardless of whether or not he likes you. If he is sent on you he is gonna put you in the hospital. He screwed me up pretty bad through a hidden sleeve with an unconditioned jaw. I'm 215 pounds in good shape and he pulled me off my feet when I was working him in leg sleeves, a feat which up until that point had only been accomplished by a 90 pound mal most decoys refuse to work. Not intimidated by him? That's fine. Tell your vascular surgeon about how brave you were.

I've been hit on the wrist on accident by zebu while playing tug with a bite that didn't even break skin but hit with enough crushing force to basically shut my hand down to where I lost use of it for a few minutes. He's 62 pounds and 10 months old and wasn't even trying to hurt me. A dog with an edge, proper training, and the desire to put the hurt on you and it won't matter if he's 50 pounds or 120 you are gonna get hurt bad. Respect the pocket rocket.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Who gives a crap about intimidation. I've been working a 60 pound mal (maybe lighter I'm being generous he is smaller than my 62 pound 10 month old gsd/mal pup.) The dog is the nicest dog around people a real sweet heart and as soon as he gets activated he turns into a monster and bites hard and with hatred regardless of whether or not you're wearing visible equipment or even regardless of whether or not he likes you. If he is sent on you he is gonna put you in the hospital. He screwed me up pretty bad through a hidden sleeve with an unconditioned jaw. I'm 215 pounds in good shape and he pulled me off my feet when I was working him in leg sleeves, a feat which up until that point had only been accomplished by a 90 pound mal most decoys refuse to work. *Not intimidated by him? That's fine. Tell your vascular surgeon about how brave you were.*
> 
> I've been hit on the wrist on accident by zebu while playing tug with a bite that didn't even break skin but hit with enough crushing force to basically shut my hand down to where I lost use of it for a few minutes. He's 62 pounds and 10 months old and wasn't even trying to hurt me. A dog with an edge, proper training, and the desire to put the hurt on you and it won't matter if he's 50 pounds or 120 you are gonna get hurt bad. Respect the pocket rocket.


Lol! That's perfect.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anyone who was more worried about my 80 pound male GSD than they were about my 56/58 pound female would be in for a BIG surprise, lol.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Legitimate question, so don't take it the wrong way, but have you ever considered going with another breed specifically suited for that kind of work that you're looking for in a dog? Like a guarding breed that's supposed to be that size? An irish wolfhound for example or something similar?


Absolutely not. Never! I will always have GSD's. I have had and do have other dogs but I hope I will always have at least one GSD.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Those articles are crazy. I stand by my point though, once you hit the 50 pound mark or above, I really think the dog is a deterrent.


If you think California articles are crazy here are some from AZ and NV too. Coyotes are a real and serious concern. 

http://www.kpho.com/story/17160914/3-bitten-in-24-hours-in-peoria-coyote-attacks[/EMAIL]"][EMAIL="http://www.kpho.com/story/17160914/3-bitten-in-24-hours-in-peoria-coyote-attacks"]http://www.kpho.com/story/17160914/3-bitten-in-24-hours-in-peoria-coyote-attacks[/EMAIL]

Family loses dog to coyote attack | azfamily.com Phoenix

Small Pets Prone To Coyote Attacks - KTVN Channel 2 - Reno Tahoe News Weather, Video -

Recent coyote attacks kill pets - My News 4 - KRNV, Reno, NV


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> I really don't care what you think, your rescue your dogs, aren't supporting breeders breeding above the standard to those that want everything their way.


Got me there. I do rescue my dogs and if I ever did someday happen to go to a breeder again it would be for a white shepherd.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I personally prefer to have a GSD on the higher end of the standard rather than the lower end.

That being sad, I have a monster. He's 28.5 inches at the shoulder and 90 pounds. He could easily be 100 pounds and not be fat but I want him lean. 

One of my biggest pet peeves is overweight dogs. We control how much our dogs eat, unless there is a health issue making the dog fat, there is no excuse for a fat dog. JMO

I wanted to add, that if I were to get another GSD in the future, I would want him to be within the standard.


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## ShadowXx (Nov 5, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Got me there. I do rescue my dogs and if I ever did someday happen to go to a breeder again it would be for a white shepherd.


Interesting shepherdmom, what would make you want a white one from a breeder? Just wondering the difference between the standard GS and white GS, actually probably going to look that up right now.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> If you think California articles are crazy here are some from AZ and NV too. Coyotes are a real and serious concern.
> 
> http://www.kpho.com/story/17160914/3-bitten-in-24-hours-in-peoria-coyote-attacks[/EMAIL]"][EMAIL="http://www.kpho.com/story/17160914/3-bitten-in-24-hours-in-peoria-coyote-attacks"]http://www.kpho.com/story/17160914/3-bitten-in-24-hours-in-peoria-coyote-attacks[/EMAIL]
> 
> ...


Since the coyote issue has arisen... In 2009 a young woman was killed in Canada by 3 coyotes, and I saw a rather scary in depth show about that attack, I believe it was on Nat Geo. It seems that genetic studies in the eastern half of both the US and Canada have shown that there is a new type of coyote emerging, carrying wolf genes as well as coyote. Wolves are big and strong and hunt in packs to take large prey, but avoid humans whenever possible. Coyotes are usually loners, opportunists, able to survive in almost any environment, and not opposed to sharing habitat with humans. What the wolf blood has done to the coyotes is make them larger, stronger, showing pack behavior, while still being opportunists and not so afraid of humans. A couple who were hiking the same trail as the woman who was attacked, met up with the same coyotes before the attack. They took pictures of them, a male and 2 females, the male in the lead. The expression on the male's face was all alpha, looking directly into the man's eyes with a glare that was definitely challenging. Fortunately for them, the couple was far enough away from the coyotes that they could go off on a different trail, one that led back to the ranger's station. It was also suggested that the young woman, when faced with the coyotes, may have turned and ran, a sure trigger for attack.

Until last April, we lived in an area where we often heard and saw coyotes (I do wonder if the super coyotes have made their way to Michigan...). Late at night we could often hear them very close, howling and yelping at each other. The past few years I noticed something interesting. I had 2 rescue GDSs, one older and fairly large, who barked a lot. The other didn't bark much, but he was huge, 30 inches, and had a voice that matched his size. One night not long after we got Cesar, our giant, we heard the coyotes not far away. Rosco, the old dog, barked at them, and they continued their vocalizations. Cesar listened for a moment, then let loose with a huge "Wooof-woof" from deep in his chest. The coyotes shut up immediately. From then on, Cesar could silence them with one bark. I think they recognized his size from his bark, as well as his intentions if there weren't a fence restraining him.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Info on coywolfs,
Meet the Coywolf: Wolf/Coyote/Coywolf: A Comparison - The Nature of Things


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Coyotes are all over the place, too. Living in greenbelts within cities, adapting to life in urban areas. And then there's the people that feel sorry for them for losing their habitat and leave food out for them. It isn't pretty. They're often shot in my neck of the woods.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

ShadowXx said:


> Interesting shepherdmom, what would make you want a white one from a breeder? Just wondering the difference between the standard GS and white GS, actually probably going to look that up right now.


It gets confusing actually there is a whole thread on it but whites and standards used to be the same but white is a fault and the SV in Germany refuses to register or even acknowledge that whites exist. They are allowed to be registered here with the AKC but then another group has gone a different direction and is breeding the Berger Blanc Suisse, or sometimes called the Swiss Shepherd and got it registered with the FCI. 

The reason I would consider a breeder for a white is that they are fairly hard to come by. I haven't seen a lot for rescue and they get snapped up quickly. Whiteshepherds posts pictures of her beautiful dogs all the time and she would be the first person I would ask for recommendations on where to go to get a white... but that is a dream for long in the future. I've got a beautiful rescue puppy coming home soon and added to the pack we've already got we are at capacity.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Until last April, we lived in an area where we often heard and saw coyotes (I do wonder if the super coyotes have made their way to Michigan...). Late at night we could often hear them very close, howling and yelping at each other. The past few years I noticed something interesting. I had 2 rescue GDSs, one older and fairly large, who barked a lot. The other didn't bark much, but he was huge, 30 inches, and had a voice that matched his size. One night not long after we got Cesar, our giant, we heard the coyotes not far away. Rosco, the old dog, barked at them, and they continued their vocalizations. Cesar listened for a moment, then let loose with a huge "Wooof-woof" from deep in his chest. The coyotes shut up immediately. From then on, Cesar could silence them with one bark. I think they recognized his size from his bark, as well as his intentions if there weren't a fence restraining him.


It really is an effective deterrent IMO. There is nothing like that warning woof to let the wildlife know hey there is a big boy over there you don't want to mess with him, stay away!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Coyotes are all over the place, too. Living in greenbelts within cities, adapting to life in urban areas. And then there's the people that feel sorry for them for losing their habitat and leave food out for them. It isn't pretty. They're often shot in my neck of the woods.


Run over by cars too. I see squished ones on the hwy. all the time.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

My dad called me last week and the coyotes have ran his cattle through the fence twice within a week....Very thick here... 

GSD have always had a place in my heart. I love the breed, loyalty, temperament, and intelligence...I will own a GSD for the remainder of my life


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

SuperG said:


> I've only been in this forum for less than a year and I have come to discover, all too many GSD owners are so caught up in having a BIG dog, so BIG they might purposely overfeed the dog so they can say...."...yeah my shepherd weighs a hundred and ....... pounds". It's almost as if having a bigger dog/GSD somehow makes one feel a sense of elevated status. Why is it, we never hear anyone shout from the rooftops "....YES, it's a purebred GSD and it only weighs 16 pounds"? Actually, a toy shepherd would be interesting.
> 
> These are the questions I ask.
> 
> ...


IMO I don't think it's just with GSD owners. I have met A LOT of other breed owners that are the same way.. and sadly I feel it's mostly an American thing. For some reason in almost every aspect America has made it a "bigger is better" world and it sickening.. I get your frustration and wish people would educate them selves on just what it means to have a poorly bred, large dog.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I get your frustration and wish people would educate them selves on just what it means to have a poorly bred, large dog.


*raising eyebrows*Sooo, a poorly bred small dog is acceptable? I'm sure that's not what you meant but there is a common assumption that oversized GSDs lack health, structural integrity, energy, longevity, intellectual acuity & emotional stability. This is simply NOT true. Breeders selecting only for a single quality (or 2) will indeed eventually produce unsound, unhealthy, wonky dogs. This is true whether the favored quality is color, drives, size, gait or appearance of the head. Anyone seeking a GSD breeder should look for breeders who select for health, longevity, structural soundness, emotional stability, intelligence & biddability. IF they aren't producing those qualities in their dogs they aren't worth a 2nd glance, IMO.

My over sized GSDs have been healthy, sound, active, intelligent, biddable & uber stable. They are more discerning than unduly suspicious & are the somewhat friendly side of aloof. They're mildly friendly without being terribly interested in other people. They're unfazed by fireworks, gunfire, riots, sirens, screaming children, angry adults, other dogs big or small, people using wheelchairs, walkers, crutches or canes etc. I love 'em madly & can't imagine life without them.

How protective are they? I have no idea. Despite living in a bad neighborhood they've never had to protect me. (Car & house have bullets in em. Next door neighbors have been shot several times. Other neighbors have been murdered). When people describe their dogs as protective I am (tbh) usually very sceptical even when it's a trained/titled dog. I don't bother arguing or pushing it b/c 1) I don't *know* one way or the other & 2) I care even less. *shrug*Between their brawn & my brains we manage

Perhaps it's easy for me to tolerate the GSD I'm not enamored of b/c I am so happy with mine & my experiences with them have been so overwhelmingly positive. Regardless of what others prefer in their GSDs I truly hope they find GSDs they're as happy with as I've been with mine.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> ....
> Anyone seeking a GSD breeder should look for breeders who select for health, longevity, structural soundness, emotional stability, intelligence & biddability. ...


I haven't yet met a breeder who did not claim just that.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I agree. The proof is in the dogs they produce. As noted elsewhere the most we can hope for is to 'stack the deck'. 

I've had 3 GSDs & all have been from the same breeder. Sam was 2 mos past her 13th birthday when I had to let her go. She barely slowed down until she was in her 11th yr. She was healthy & vigorous until the last few months of her life. Apart from routine immunizations she was treated by the vet once for a hot spot which he felt resulted from exposure to strong pesticides I used after ants began to take over. The hot spot resolved quickly & easily with minimal care & expense.

Djibouti turned 7 in Dec. Pheonix is almost 6. Both have been extremely healthy. Djibouti has required no vet care beyond routine immunizations. Pheonix has only had routine immunizations & a spay surgery. 

Apart from physical health they've all been intelligent, stable, sound, personable & a joy to live with. 

When I get a 4th GSD I'll go to the same breeder simply b/c 
1) my own experiences with her dogs have been superb
2) the vast majority of people I've communicated with who have actual experience with her dogs have been overwhelmingly happy with their GSDs (she gets a lot of return customers)
3) I find her honest, ethical & easy to deal with

IF I wanted to show my GSDs I'd go elsewhere. IF I was interested in IPO I'd go elsewhere. IF I wanted to do agility I'd go elsewhere. Her GSDs aren't for everyone, nor does she pretend that they are. 

IF I wanted to do SAR, tracking or herding I might go elsewhere. She has had dogs succeed in those endeavors so I'd consider it & talk to her & others before making a decision.

Most people who know her dogs describe them as appropriately protective. Again, that particular claim is one I'm always sceptical of & largely indifferent to. It really doesn't figure into my dog buying decisions so I don't sweat it, tbh.

Again, I hope others experiences with their dogs & breeders are as good as mine have been.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> IMO I don't think it's just with GSD owners. I have met A LOT of other breed owners that are the same way.. and sadly I feel it's mostly an American thing. For some reason in almost every aspect America has made it a "bigger is better" world and it sickening.. I get your frustration and wish people would educate them selves on just what it means to have a poorly bred, large dog.



Yes, it is not just GSD owners....agreed.

Yes, American mentality " bigger is better" ...agreed...evidenced by the 7-11 64 ounce Slurpee ....LOL

SuperG


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

SuperG, I prefer bigger dogs. I just do & I always have, but no, I don't think they're _better_. 

Do I prefer them? Yes. 
Are they better for some tasks? Yes. 
Are smaller GSDs a better choice for some jobs? Yes. 
Do others have preferences different than my own? Yes. 
Does that bother me? *raising eyebrows yet again*Ummm, no. 
Is size the most important issue facing the breed? Hardly.
Is size a terribly important issue? IMO, no.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

RubyTuesday said:


> SuperG, I prefer bigger dogs. I just do & I always have, but no, I don't think they're _better_.
> 
> Do I prefer them? Yes.
> Are they better for some tasks? Yes.
> ...


Ohhhhhhhh..... I think you missed my point. 

I originally was making an observation which is all too prevalent with many larger breed dog owners. This mentality I see expressed too often, revolves around this idea that the larger a certain breed is ( such as GSDs ) the more "superior" or a better specimen of the breed it is. I have no problems with small dogs or big dogs however I desire a larger breed dog for my own tastes....that is simply my "taste buds". To each their own is my mantra with many things in life. But this attitude of which I speak is evident at either end of the spectrum, witnessed by so many who almost seem letdown by the fact that their GSD is too small. I am sure you have read countless posts in this forum of GSD owners who are worried sick that their GSD isn't big enough as a puppy....this fretfulness has captured my quizzical attention equally. Prime example....post just popped up... *Miniature German Shepherd ** I recently adopted a German Shepherd who was abandoned at my work. She was only 44lbs at the time. She has a small frame and is well proportioned. She is definitely full grown, aged between 3-6. The vet says she's in very good health and that she is just a really small gsd... She weighs over 48 lbs now but is still tiny for a German Shepherd but is definitely pure bred. 

Does anyone have an idea on why she is so small? *

I was just curious in nature as to why this emphasis is placed so heavily by some folks. This "curiosity" has led me to then wonder why the GSD has so many permutations as compared to most other breeds. One poster suggested this is what happens when a breed is super popular and a plethora of breeders is the result. I agree with the poster's assertion.

I am not suggesting that the desire to own a larger dog is somehow incorrect at any level. I do however believe that the allure of "BIG" by too many GSD owners is an interesting quandry when most every GSD owner is so concerned that their GSD is purebred.....purebred to what standards however? 

SuperG


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I love my bitches size. About 22-24 inches and 68-70 lbs. She does produce puppies that turn out larger than her though. Hoping to get a pup on the smaller size out of this litter (bred two days ago) to keep. The breed standard says its a medium size dog, not SUPER SIZED. I think Americans in general are obsessed with bigger things.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I do enjoy my big guys but it's health, longevity & temperament that I obsess about. IF I couldn't have had what I wanted in a bigger package then I would have gone with a smaller GSD.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> No what my 90# GSD is going to do is to deter the owl from swooping down to get my smaller dogs. Just as he deters the coyotes from coming into my yard. Because he is big and scary and no one wants to mess with him. Unless you are a kid or a puppy then he is a big teddy bear.


Oh since prey birds are already in here. 

Winter time maybe 5 years ago, it was so cold that the Bald Eagles came down one was setting on my back fence.

Gunther my BullMastiff/Pit (Tri colour 85 lbs)mix goes running out to charge the Eagle, go whatever, head back in the house.
Struddell the White Boxer 65 lbs and Boxer Slim starts to charge also! I spin around and scoop her!

I figured the Eagle was going to take off with with Gunther going after him, with Gunther charging him but Struddel ? I thought he might be a near sighted Eagle and mistake Stru for a skinny Sheep!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> It gets confusing actually there is a whole thread on it but whites and standards used to be the same but white is a fault and the SV in Germany refuses to register or even acknowledge that whites exist. They are allowed to be registered here with the AKC but then another group has gone a different direction and is breeding the Berger Blanc Suisse, or sometimes called the Swiss Shepherd and got it registered with the FCI.










Welcome to the club!:laugh:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

alexg said:


> I haven't yet met a breeder who did not claim just that.


True in a good number of cases..but you ask for the health docs and certs on the parents.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Welcome to the club!:laugh:[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> True in a good number of cases..but you ask for the health docs and certs on the parents.


I want to see these but they don't provide nearly enough info to make an informed decision. Read the threads where people struggle to find a single food their poor dog can eat...Or inexplicably lose a dog only a few years old...Or fail with basic toilet training & can't get even a half decent recall on their GSD. Then there was the doozy with an ongoing parvo problem who hired an expensive expert to fix the problem but ignored the expert's recommendations (& continued to lose pups to parvo). Or the breeder who tested for DM but ignored the results & bred 'em anyways. Or those breeders who hide behind sketchy titles & breed thin nerved, unreliable dogs.

Health testing provides the mere tip of the iceberg. Is the extended family healthy, sound & long lived? Do people return for a 2nd & 3rd pup from the breeder? If you contact previous owners, do they have mature adults rather than simply a cute pup purchased a few months back? Does the breeder instill confidence? 

Friends laugh b/c one of the things I liked about Djibouti's breeder is that when I visited she showed me a 12 yo bitch with DM who had about 3 mo remaining before she needed to be pts. There are breeders who would have had her pts & then conveniently 'forgotten' she'd had DM.

Nor should people passively accept recommendations extolling popular breeders & kennels. Scratch the surface of these widely touted breeders. Beneath a beguiling surface & a ton of hype some are indeed golden. Others are dross.

Ultimately, there is no substitute to doing the research, thinking for yourself & choosing the dog that will make you & your family happy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Oh since prey birds are already in here.
> 
> Winter time maybe 5 years ago, it was so cold that the Bald Eagles came down one was setting on my back fence.
> 
> ...


Heard there are some Eagles nesting this year at Lahontan!


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## Wetdog (May 23, 2001)

Be careful Gatordog---I don't think Hans is full grown yet.


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