# Breeding for appearance questions



## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

This is sort of a spin off from my recent thread "what kind of dog is that?". I've had a few conversations about how you can have a purebred GSD with long hair and a sable coat. This generally comes from those people who swear Kaiser is mixed with "something". 

For starters, I know the sable gene is dominant but I'm not sure about coat length. In Kaiser's case, I think he has a medium length stock coat (he still has an undercoat, although his fur is much less coarse than the "standard" calls for). I admit, until I saw Falon's Kastle, I had never seen another longer haired sable in the US. So for my personal knowledge, how does this work?

For example, if Kaiser was to be bred to a very dark stock coat sable, how would the puppies (theoretically) look? What if the female was a longer coat?

What would the puppies look like if Kaiser was bred to a standard b&t or r&b? 

And what about a pure black or pure white?

Obviously none of these breedings will ever occur as I have absolutely no plans on breeding Kaiser and NOBODY should EVER breed for just appearance. I'm just trying to understand the genetics of it, as best I can. I know the basics of genetics in that both parents have to have the recessive gene in order to produce puppies with that recessive trait...and I know that a dominant gene will trump a recessive gene. But beyond that...

And as an aside, I'm having trouble finding dogs with Belgium roots online. Does anyone have any examples you could show me of both short and longer coated belgian lines?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Frankenhaus German Shepherds - Color Genetics
Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements

Regarding LC:
If your dog has two copies of the LC allele, your dog is a long coat. He could be a shorter long coat, but he is still a LC. Stock coat is dominant to LC. Speaking from the WGSL viewpoint, most of our dogs (rough guess 90%) that are stock coat will carry the LC recessive. Meaning that two normal stock coats can still product a LC if the recessive comes out. If you breed a LC to a stock coat, you can still have stock coats coming out, but at a lower rate. 
Forgive my messy punnett squares!










Coat Variation in the Domestic Dog Is Governed by Variants in Three Genes
Paper on the genetics of coat variation. Good read. 

Let me know if you have more questions.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

you are amazing!!!! I haven't read the links yet but I will as soon as I leave this response


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

On the same vein:
What happens if you breed a dog that does NOT carry coat to a normal stock coat that is a carrier:









Wiva's sire Xenox is one of the few WGSL studs around that does not carry coat. He has not been tested, but has never produced a coat after quite a few breedings. See how you can completely mask coat if you breed to a dog that carries two dominant stock coat copies? However, if you kept progeny (like I did with Wiva), you could still produce coats a generation down. I had Wiva tested for coat length and she came back as a LC carrier. So she was the 50% that carries coat out of the breeding.

The advantage is that your litter will have no LC, which is desirable for people because short coats can be shown, bred and command a higher price. (Yes LC can be shown, but )


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

ok...so Kaiser (sable) with a black dog would produce sables since solid black is the most recessive.

Kaiser with another sable would produce sables.

Kaiser with a r&b or b&t would...produce sables because sable is dominant over r&b and b&t. But if Kaiser has a gene (allele?) for, say, b&t, then he could also produce those?

Kaiser with a white would...produce sables unless he has the gene for white? I'm a little confused on this one.

So it seems, a sable can produce ANY of the other colors (r&b/b&t, bi-color, black) but the other colors can't produce a sable unless mated to a sable.

I'll have to re-read that last article...I felt extremely intelligent while reading it, then realized I was reading myself into circles, lol. 

Ref: the long coat though...VERY interesting! So Kaiser IS considered a long coat then, as far as genetics goes? And because a LC is recessive, he MUST be paired with a female who is known to have at least one copy of the gene.

Whew...I'm not sure if this makes me want to go back to school or run far, far away from it ;-p I actually studied zoology, years ago though...and genetics always interested me but often left me a little confused.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

this is so interesting!!! Genetics in school were never so, I suppose because I didn't have my own dog to use as an example! lol


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have a long hair dark sable , and his sire was a long coat solid black . Here is the pedigree Carmspack Sumo
Carmspack Sumo -- his sister Journey is a "normal" coat dark sable owned by Laurel , recently got BH with high standing - genetic obedience on both of them and strong committment to fight , rock solid, sociable dogs , with the health and constitution of mountain goats


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

We cannot say for sure with Kaiser because we do not know what he carries in addition to sable. It makes a big difference on what he could produce depending on the female and what she carries also. But we don't know what Kaiser carries or what the potential female would carry so you could only do "if then" cases right now. It does not matter what he is phenotypically (on the outside), we will have to see what he carries also. 

In terms of LC, yes Kaiser is a LC. What do you mean he MUST be bred to a LC carrier? It depends on what you wish to produce. If you want LC out of that breeding, you should breed to a LC carrier or if you really just want to produce LC only, he must be bred to another LC. This is what people do with the blacks. If you want a litter of all black, you must breed two blacks together.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Oops, I forgot to finish my thought  I was saying that if LC was the goal, then he must be paired with a female who has at least one copy.

I am going all off theory here. For all I know Kaiser could produce pandas! haha...ok maybe not. But yes, its all a crapshoot at this point. Theoretically though its very interesting!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Here are all the possibilities in terms of coat for Kaiser:


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Additional note: all these percentages are just probabilities. Remember that EACH puppy is a completely new roll of the dice so theoretically, you could produce ALL long coats out of a Kaiser x Stock coat that carries coat or you could produce no coats. This is why some of these litters will drive you nuts because although highly anticipated, you might end up producing all long coats out of two normal parents and you don't have anything to keep.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

hmm...so, we know that Kaiser DOES carry the LC and sable gene. But we don't know what else he carries. So aside from being able to theoretically produce b&t, bi-colors, and blacks of both short and long coats (depending on the female), what is it that he can NOT produce? White? Dogs with diluted colors? (or is his light tan considered a diluted red?) 

Hmm, and now that I think about it, how does structure work? Kaiser has more of his mother's face (narrow muzzle), so can he only produce puppies with narrow faces? Can heavier boned progeny with more masculine heads be produced if Kaiser is paired with a female with those traits? On the same note, if he is mated to a female with a more sloped topline, will that "even out" the fact that Kaiser's is more straight? Or are the genetics similiar to that with coat characteristics (in that you have dominant and recessive traits). Is body structure even considered dominant or recessive?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Conformation is a tricky mistress. If it was as simple as matching two dogs with agreeable traits and producing progeny that resemble their parents, breeders would have a lot more success. The problem with traits like structure, appearance, temperament and so on is that they are polygenic traits. Traits that are influenced and mitigated by multiple genes and factors. They are too plentiful to reliably produce 100% accurate results. This is when things like linebreeding and inbreeding come into play. The closer the genes, the more reliably you can predict what you will produce. You will have to look deeper than just sire and dam. I have heard more than one old school breeder say that progeny tend to reflect the grandparents more so than the parents. Breeders will try to do what you are saying. Try to improve what your dog lacks. But again, it is NOT a guarantee. You could end up producing a litter with all narrow faces and level topline. That is also why you have "pet" pups and the ones the breeder keeps. Out of each litter, you will have pups that will suit your purpose better than others because they are all just genetic rolls of the dice. You might luck out with a superb litter or you could get a litter with a host of genetic problems. This is why I really like to keep track of littermates, their health and accomplishments. They are a first hand view of what happens when your dog's genetics combine in the same way and what they could produce. 

Say you produced a really nice dog and you keep her back for yourself. But then a year later, puppy buyers of your dog's littermates come back and tell you that their pups have bad hips. That gives you an insight into what your dog can potentially carry. If it's a fluke, that's one thing. But what if the entire litter suffers from a genetic issue? Be it temperament, nerve strength, drive, working ability, aggression, hips/elbows, DM or whatever you are tracking, you must get the WHOLE story before even attempting anything because the outside is one very small piece of the puzzle. This is why I laugh when we get a newbie that swears that their dog should be bred because it is "sweet, everyone tells me he's pretty and he is the best dog I had". That is just the very tip of the iceberg. They have NO idea what they are working with because the genetics and genotype is a giant crucial part of breeding that so many blatantly disregard or do not have enough knowledge to be tampering with.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

wow so interesting. I have so much respect for the REAL breeders out there, and I know they are constantly evolving and learning, even after all the years of experience!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Halo is a LC sable too.  Her parents were both stock coats - her dam is sable and her sire is solid black. There were blacks and sables in the litter, and at least one other LC. 

I don't know know anything about color or conformation genetics, but two stock coats without the LC gene will produce all stock coats, and two stock coats where only one of them carries the LC gene will also produce all stock coats. In order for a pairing to have any LC puppies, both of them must carry the recessive LC gene. I believe there's an approximately 25% chance that there will be some LCs in the litter, but as gbchottu pointed out, that's not an absolute.


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