# Growled at me??? (Had her over 4 years, she is about over 4.5 years)



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

A lot of the older members know Zelda's story. 
My dog has never given me any issues personally with growling or anything over food, beds, etc.
I live with my sister she has two dogs.
The three dogs each had a chewy treat. (She always waits till the other two are done eating to eat hers...)
Anyways.. I went over to her while she was eating and was like oh what a nice chewy treat! And the other dogs were around, and she started growling.. I wasn't sure if it was at me.. Or the other dogs. SO either way I asked her to get off, and when she did i asked her to give it to me. and she did let go of it. I told her to get on another bed. And than i made her wait for the chewy treat. And gave it to her. I go to the bathroom and come back and the other dogs are still around. I pet her (not like this is abnormal and i've never stolen something from her) and she hovers her head over the chewy treat. and than she growls! So because she knows better. I grabbed her scruff and put off her the bed. I know some wont agree with that. But I dont want her to think she can do that without a consequence, because its totally rude and uncalled for. It wasn't mean or aggressive, just like how maybe another dog would correct another one. Once the treat is far from her i grab it and remove it all together. And a few minutes I ask her to come over, and she comes over and rests her head into me like she does when we do our cuddles. But she was also looking at the other dogs.

So basically I suck. I shouldn't allow treats, especially chewy ones if she feels like she has to be that protective of it to a point where she is so stressed out she has to protect it from me???

Now i'm also worried, because my family isn't super savvy dog people, they will think she is a viscous wolf that cant be trusted if they hear this. But my little sister thinks (because we have a dog who allows this) that you can lay on top of a dog mostly right over their head and that they wont care.. my dog usually just gets up and goes away, but what if this behavior starts going into spacial?) 

I'm not going to lie i'm really really upset and crying. Zelda is my absolute world and I'm not sure what I did that makes her think she can growl at me, no matter how stressed out she is about something, like guarding a chewy.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

well, I think you are catastrophizing a little bit. it isn't the end of the world, you don't suck 

I think your management of this dog could use a revamp, and I would recommend a few books, especially Mine! by Jean Donaldson, which was the foundation for everything I did with the resource guarder I lived with for many years.

Besides that, I don't bother my dogs while they have a chew unless there is a safety issue. I have had to retrieve some horn pieces from my boy. he knows "spit" from when he was a puppy. He knows if he spits he gets a great reward. If I say "spit" and he spits out whatever thing he has in his mouth that he was about to swallow, I run to the kitchen and get him a hunk of cheese. Differs from out only that out is for a toy he is tugging on and spit is for something about to be swallowed.

The little sister needs a pep talk about dog safety, it doesn't mean your dog is a vicious wolf, it's just important to have certain Golden rules about dogs. "let sleeping dogs lie" used to be a thing. We need to remember and teach kids...don't know how old we are talking here...not to hug a dog while it is chewing something tasty. Maybe the dog only gets tasty things in a crate from now on.

I made a ton of progress with my resource guarder, I'm sure you can too.

I know people may disagree but I am not a fan of physical discipline around this...seems to make dogs defensive and more likely to react.

If I think I can get away with it I have and will stand my ground and refuse to be bullied by a guarder....I had a GSD boarding, not my dog, who gave me a nice wolfy snarl over a ball he had. I was wearing a long, heavy winter coat and had my hands in my pockets so I felt like it wouldn't be super easy for him to hurt me so I just stood over him and gave him the "shame on you, how dare you snarl at me for a ball that belongs to me and you are a guest and this is my house" in my most mother shaming tone. He was taken aback, spit the ball and took off.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

IMO she was guarding it from the other dogs.Taking and returning her treat will make her even more anxious.In her mind her worst fear was realized - "See?!I just knew someone would steal my treat!I knew it all along!"Separate her from the others when there is food involved,it doesn't need to become an issue.
Hopefully you can explain the how and why to your family.And convince your sister that Zelda doesn't enjoy being her pillow.Zelda is trying to be a good girl and tell her nicely.If your sister persists it could lead to a bite.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I had a growler; well, actually he was a recovering biter. So, it was a little more extreme than what you're describing. We got the biting impulse under control (took a year), but the growling remained for the rest of his life. And, yes, he'd growl at me too: he'd growl whenever I walked past as he was eating and he'd growl whenever I walked by where he was laying or stepped over him. I addressed the resource guarding by simply dropping lovely bits of cheese in his dish. If he growled --- poof! No more cheese . Only took a brief time before he gave up that behavior. 

The, uh, growling-while-laying down, I simply ignored or said something deeply insightful like, "Knock it off, Gunner," and kept doing what I was doing. Didn't touch him, never tried to soothe him, and I never altered my course. I just kept it very matter of fact as I passed by. And, yes, there were times when he simply had to get up in order for me to get by, which he did, grumbling the entire time. My reaction was, typically, "Oh, please. Your life is not that hard." 

I chose that approach for a several reasons. First, he _never _came up from the floor with his teeth bared at me. That's an altogether different message and one that I would have addressed immediately. Two (and I had nothing more than intuition to go on) he never seemed to being doing more than grousing at me, rather than threatening me (e.g., "I am laying down here, so pay attention and don't step on me!" as opposed to "I will bite you if you don't back off"). Third, he never once offered to bite me and he could have done so very easily. (To be honest, he did nail a couple of people before we got things under control). Over time, the growling-while-laying-down subsided to a rumble but it never completely went away. I was okay with that (many folks wouldn't be) because, to me, what he brought to the table far outweighed what I saw as his quirks. 

This is an admittedly long-winded way of saying sometimes we make behaviors worse by imagining what they _might _become ("Have I just brought Cujo home?") instead of simply looking at the dog and situation in front of us, and what _we _may be doing to exacerbate what may, in reality, be a communication glitch. Sometimes when a dog rumbles, all it's saying is "Hey! I'm eating/sleeping here." What we hear, however, is "I am gonna mess you up!" We have to work on our ability to read our dogs, so that our response is targetted to the actual messages they send. It's a life long process, I believe. 

So, yes, separate dogs when feeding or distributing treats. Yes, leave them alone while they're eating --- unless you're tossing yummies in the bowl from a distance. But don't have a meltdown just because Puppers growled and don't back off of it either. Instead, try changing how you manage the dogs _and _your reactions, and see what happens. 

Aly


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> well, I think you are *catastrophizing a little bit. * it isn't the end of the world, you don't suck
> 
> I think your management of this dog could use a revamp, and I would recommend a few books, especially Mine! by Jean Donaldson, which was the foundation for everything I did with the resource guarder I lived with for many years.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply I appreciate it! I definitely am, but I cannot say how much this dog means to me. So in my head it just feels like a betrayal, i know its not necessarily. Its hard to put a finger on it. Either way it was less than desirable. 
Your right, I need to revamp everything. I have been dealing with a new auto-immune disease this past half year, depression, a job that is high stress, and college classes online. She barely gets walks, barely gets any treat training. And the other dogs around her are less than positive influence on her. They are both food aggressive. Zelda has never shown signs of any of that food/aggression that i can recall. 
But I just took her on a walk.
I am going to do positive reinforcement and do what you guys and Aly suggested with dropping treats, separating, etc.
The other aspect is that I have my roommate/aka my older sister. Being on the same page of things is not always happening. 



dogma13 said:


> IMO she was guarding it from the other dogs.Taking and returning her treat will make her even more anxious.In her mind her worst fear was realized - "See?!I just knew someone would steal my treat!I knew it all along!"Separate her from the others when there is food involved,it doesn't need to become an issue.
> Hopefully you can explain the how and why to your family.And convince your sister that Zelda doesn't enjoy being her pillow.Zelda is trying to be a good girl and tell her nicely.If your sister persists it could lead to a bite.


Yes I have talked to her about it a couple times, i dont think she gets it and i will talk to her again. She is starting working at a doggy daycare/boarding and i am hoping she will learn some things about dog language and that some dogs dont care to be teddybears and pillows! 
Also talking to my older sister (my roommate) she had mentioned that since Zelda waited to eat her chewy, she didn't want there to be a fight over one treat, so she said she has taken it away a few times. So this could have been another thing leading up to this. Thanks for your time.



Aly said:


> I had a growler; well, actually he was a recovering biter. So, it was a little more extreme than what you're describing. We got the biting impulse under control (took a year), but the growling remained for the rest of his life. And, yes, he'd growl at me too: he'd growl whenever I walked past as he was eating and he'd growl whenever I walked by where he was laying or stepped over him. I addressed the resource guarding by simply dropping lovely bits of cheese in his dish. If he growled --- poof! No more cheese . Only took a brief time before he gave up that behavior.
> 
> The, uh, growling-while-laying down, I simply ignored or said something deeply insightful like, "Knock it off, Gunner," and kept doing what I was doing. Didn't touch him, never tried to soothe him, and I never altered my course. I just kept it very matter of fact as I passed by. And, yes, there were times when he simply had to get up in order for me to get by, which he did, grumbling the entire time. My reaction was, typically, "Oh, please. Your life is not that hard."
> 
> ...


Hey Aly thank you for putting so much into your reply. I think sometimes i have to remember that dogs will be dogs... I grew up in a household where if a dog growled, showed teeth, or bit it was back to the humane society. So growing up with that mentality it makes me freak out when things like this happen. I would NEVER give Zelda up, she is my world, i mean that. My emotional support dog and the one that got me through my worst years of depression and suicidal behaviors. Now that I'm on the other side mostly.. I have other issues auto-immune disease, high stress work, and college classes. She is not getting the care she use to. 
My older sister (roommate) told me that when the other dogs eat theirs and Zelda waits (which is a newer behavior), and the other ones are done and Zelda has not eaten hers, she will take the chewy treat away usually. This could be another addition. I have not been speaking up for her. She has given us PLENTY of signs that is high stress with eating/taking treats in front of other dogs (especially ones that would fight over them, as the other two can be quite food aggressive to other dogs)
Zelda waits to eat her chewy treat, which is a newer behavior. Same with.. When my sister feeds her two, she will feed Zelda a few kibble pieces to not make her feel left out. Zelda has been usually refusing to eat hers. I wonder if this is all the build up. 
I asked my sister if she can feed her dogs upstairs instead of downstairs, she doesn't seem like she wants to do that... I told her at least the treats than.. and she isn't a huge fan of that either. So i hope i can make this work for Zelda as i havent been a very good advocate for her, clearly, lately. I am going to try your suggestions. She does love cheese, and freeze dried liver treats, hotdogs, etc. I will try this! 
She usually eats all of her food throughout the night when i am sleeping in our bedroom. So she is not use to having anyone interrupt her really. 
"This is an admittedly long-winded way of saying sometimes we make behaviors worse by imagining what they _might _become ("Have I just brought Cujo home?") instead of simply looking at the dog and situation in front of us, and what _we _may be doing to exacerbate what may, in reality, be a communication glitch." Really well said!
I hope that i can be to Zelda, what you were to Gunner.  

Thanks again for such an insightful and well said reply.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are treats, and there are TREATS. For some dogs, treats can be given from the fridge where everyone gets their butt on the floor, and cheese is doled out, one, two, three. And then there are TREATS, chewies, pigs' ears, and the like. They take longer from start to finish, and weaker dogs can lose them to other dogs and if humans fiddle with a high-value treat after they gave it to the dog, it may seem unfair. The dog doesn't know that you aren't going to take it and give it to the other dog. The dog only thinks it is going to lose what it wants. Badly. 

If you can't keep your hands off of your dog's treat after you give it to her, or if you will forget and start petting her when she is eating her treat, then crate her before giving her a treat. A high value treat. My guess is this isn't about food dishes or typical stuff. This is about being afraid of losing something special. 

We sometimes err with treats. We make them into something more special than they need to be. We make them work for them. We give treats all through training. We give treats with excitement and baby talk. We hype up the treats. And then we lose our minds and punish a dog for thinking the treat is special and theirs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog is 4.5 years? Why would you use treats in training? Again, I think we make treats higher in value than they need to be. 80% of dogs or more are ok with this. They can handle working for treats and never have an issue. But dogs that have shown an issue, I think we should really think about how we are making treats more important. By 4.5 years, treats should have been phased out in training. The dog should be fine with spending quality time with you, and getting praised when she does a thing right. Use a toy as a special reward. And after class pass a cheeseburger plaine back at her. Or pass her chewie too her after class in the car on the way home. But the treat during training, I would avoid that.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

selzer said:


> There are treats, and there are TREATS. For some dogs, treats can be given from the fridge where everyone gets their butt on the floor, and cheese is doled out, one, two, three. And then there are TREATS, chewies, pigs' ears, and the like. They take longer from start to finish, and weaker dogs can lose them to other dogs and if humans fiddle with a high-value treat after they gave it to the dog, it may seem unfair. The dog doesn't know that you aren't going to take it and give it to the other dog. The dog only thinks it is going to lose what it wants. Badly.
> 
> *If you can't keep your hands off of your dog's treat after you give it to her,* or *if you will forget and start petting her when she is eating her treat,* then crate her before giving her a treat. A high value treat. My guess is this isn't about food dishes or typical stuff. This is about being afraid of losing something special.
> 
> We sometimes err with treats. We make them into something more special than they need to be. We make them work for them. We give treats all through training. We give treats with excitement and baby talk. We hype up the treats. And then we lose our minds and punish a dog for thinking the treat is special and theirs.


I dont ever take her treats from her, i am unsure of where you thought i do that as a practice. I only did it for safety of myself and the other dogs, and than of it becoming a problem in the moment. 
Secondly, she has never had issues with me and her and treats, chewy treats or not. Never. This is an isolated event, first time of its kind. Its not like she has done this before, and i simply "forgot" that she growls at me and gets worked up over me being near and a treat. 
I do agree we can make them more special than they need to be, that is something i will tone down.



selzer said:


> The dog is 4.5 years? Why would you use treats in training? Again, I think we make treats higher in value than they need to be. 80% of dogs or more are ok with this. They can handle working for treats and never have an issue. But dogs that have shown an issue, I think we should really think about how we are making treats more important. By 4.5 years, treats should have been phased out in training. The dog should be fine with spending quality time with you, and getting praised when she does a thing right. Use a toy as a special reward. And after class pass a cheeseburger plaine back at her. Or pass her chewie too her after class in the car on the way home. But the treat during training, I would avoid that.


There is nothing wrong with using treats, I tend to do it when we are brushing up on older tricks or new ones as a lure and treat. But I do it also when I pill her, or squirt liquid medicine in her mouth before and after, etc. Unfortunately she isn't into toys that much, i've tried that. When it comes to behavior modification and temperament training food rewards really have no limit. Also, taking treats from someone is actually a positive association with human and food. But i can see if you are referring to luring and treat rewards during training. She sits, barks, lays down, "touches", sits from a distance, "waits" and what not without the use of treats throughout the day.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Two things, one, once I give my dog any food, I let them eat it without my interference; two, I don't give treats or food to multiple dogs unless they are separated. 
Before someone says that they do it all the time, it's a practice that will work with some dogs, others it won't, still others dynamics can change over time. So I don't tempt fate.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'll just add a few things based on more info. The other dogs are nasty with food? bad dynamic for this one to be in...tension in the air. These 3 should be crated or behind closed doors or otherwise separated for any high value stuff.

I 100% disagree that you should not use food rewards training an adult dog. The dog should be able to perform without the food present if you are doing it right but besides that, I think the insinuation that you shouldn't be using food to train "anymore" is totally incorrect...or I totally disagree with it at least. I think food treats as training rewards are not an issue for this dog, correct? And they can be valuable in re conditioning a guarder. You already signed on to feed this dog every day for the rest of her life. Whether you put it in a bowl or use it as payment for a job well done is inconsequential. 

I know what you mean about the feelings it evokes when your dog growls at you. Just try to remember it is a pretty normal Form of communication for them. You are stressed out it sounds like, and your dog might be responding to this a little. It doesn't mean your bond with your dog is broken or you are a terrible dog owner or anything like that.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

VTGirlT said:


> But I just took her on a walk.



_The journey of a thousand miles begins with just one step...._ So, well done you!! 

You've gotten some excellent ideas about managing things, so my remaining suggestion is that you consider changing _how _you advocate for Zelda. What I mean is that sometimes conversations with roomates/family members is not enough and only frustrates both parties. So, you/we just have to pull on our (gender nonspecific) Big Girl Panties and _do _for the animals in our care. What do I mean? Well, to the extent that you can (don't know your schedule or living arrangements), only _you _feed Zelda and you only feed her in your room behind a closed door. Sit with her, if you like --- at a distance --- but leave her strictly alone while she's eating. Same approach with whatever toys/treats you want to dispense: Only in your room, behind a closed door. 

I wouldn't discuss this change with your roomate. I'd simply announce the change, follow it and demand that others respect your decision. I've been known to tell white lies to ensure the compliance of family members who didn't/wouldn't get it (e.g., "Puppers is violently allergic to gluten, so s/he can only have XX treats"). Of course, Puppers wasn't even mildly allergic, he was a garbage can on 4 legs, in fact. But, the family member didn't know and/or wouldn't learn how to dispense food/treats properly and was teaching Puppers bad manners, so I stepped in and eliminated the problem. Food/treats were locked away and family member never knew where. No discussion, problem solved. >

As to the child (and my apologies for missing this in first reading your post), I'd insist that _she only interact w/Zelda, if at all, under your direct supervision_. If the child or its parent can't comply with that, you're going to have to consider other options (e.g., crating Zelda when you're not home or locking her in your bedroom). Zelda's already indicated her discomfort, so respect that message and act accordingly. Again, discussion may not be productive, so I'd just _do. _ Gunner, for example, *HATED* young children and couldn't be trusted around them under any circumstances. Now, I could have frustrated the both us of by trying change his attitude and behavior (probably unsuccessfully) OR I could change how I managed them. I don't have children, but there're youngsters in my extended family, so I chose the latter option. Whenever the clan gathered at my house, Gunner spent the day/evening in my locked bedroom with water, toys, etc. (and my bed!) to keep him happy and the children safe._ No exceptions_. It worked for us.

Thank you for the kind words about Gunner, he was very special. I lost him only a few months ago, so feelings are still a tad raw. He taught me so much about handling challenging dogs/situations, that I'll be forever grateful. If talking about him can help someone else, well, that's only to the good. 



Aly


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Keep in mind VTGirl, she's 4.5 years old now. All those experiences, good and bad, over the last 4 years add up. The good things, she gets reliable at, and the bad things, she may react to in a different way with having matured now. Something like she's had enough of those other dogs in certain situations. Don't let it hurt your feelings, just pay more attention to whats going on. One good thing, it all tends to be more obvious like you just saw. For me, that makes it easier to manage.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

cliffson1, Thecowboysgirl, Aly, and Steve Strom:
I try my best. My sister (roommate) is quite proud of the fact that her two dogs can eat next to each other without (usually) getting into a fight. Although her bigger dog has gotten her aussie many times (puncture wounds, etc.) The fights they get are always over resource guarding. Thankfully my dog has gotten little of that as she respects the other dogs space in that regard. I believe my sis thinks they are learning to get along when they eat nicely next to each other, which in the regard to eating next to each other they have improved immensly. 
I asked if she would feed them upstairs, she doesnt seem to want to do that. Maybe having three crates down here would be best then for feeding, to separate completely for eating and any chewy treats. I put the chewy treats on the staircase as my proactive way of saying, "these are not allowed down here anymore!" After discussing with her of course. But what she does with Zelda I wont truly know. If she will take the treats down anyways. Only give them to her girls instead, etc. Zelda is not much of an eater anyways. Shes been eating all her food lately, except last night, she ate maybe half. But than it just goes up and she gets it the next night. But yes i think the competition of the eating food and having treats has gotten to her over time. I feel bad, because that is my fault for not advocating and making changes for her. For reading her. 
If my sister insists on feeding her dogs food while mine is around. Do you think that if she does not get anything, everytime, that would be bad too? We could give her some and separate just her behind a gait until I can get her a crate. Would crating just her be okay and not the other dogs? Or is it really best all dogs get crated, and only leave the crate once they are all done? That last option seems like the best option. But that would mean for me to buy the crates, and insist my sister utilize that option. Hopefully she would be willing as I watch her dogs quite a lot. She watches Zelda most if not all the day Wednesdays and every other Saturday when i work, and sometimes other days. Otherwise after work I watch them all. 


Steve Strom: " Don't let it hurt your feelings, just pay more attention to whats going on. One good thing, it all tends to be more obvious like you just saw. For me, that makes it easier to manage." I agree, I guess you could say I'm glad she growled and not go for lip curls and snaps instead or even biting to let me know she was extremely stressed and uncomfortable even with me being near her chewy treat! I definitely have to let go of the mentality that i have, I mean when i can step back from the moment and I remind myself that she is a dog... And dogs communicate differently than humans, and while it was unsettling, she probably didn't mean anything other than trying to get space from me, which is sad because she never has desired such a thing, but that just proves the point of her over stress, in a place i thought was less stressful than living with all of my family! 

Cliffson1: "two, I don't give treats or food to multiple dogs unless they are separated." That would be ideal, and would be what I would do if I could. Now that I know of the level of stress that Zelda has for sure... I'm seeing what I can do to change this!

Cowboysgirl, I will use treats for sure!  HIgh values are cheese, real meat, hotdogs, and freeze dried liver treats. I dont typically use treats when im around the house because I dont usually have them on me. And when I use "sit" its usually before we go outside, and her reward is the release to go outside. That kind of thing. But I do use it for behavior modification and for new things, and now of course I will use it when I am around her food, bones, chewy's etc. Thanks!

Aly, I am so sorry for your loss of Gunner.. I hope that you find peace. These dogs are amazing, they have taught us a lot about dogs and ourselves too! My dog has given me quite the ride so far, but I would never change it. Because of how she is, she has grounded me to this earth, and I know I cant leave yet. She is my world, so I cannot imagine losing her, however I know how inevitable it is. Also, I will totally use that excuse with the gluten free treats! How awesome is that! love it! 


Thanks for the suggestions again, I have a lot to work on with myself!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'll just add a few things based on more info. The other dogs are nasty with food? bad dynamic for this one to be in...tension in the air. These 3 should be crated or behind closed doors or otherwise separated for any high value stuff.
> 
> I 100% disagree that you should not use food rewards training an adult dog. The dog should be able to perform without the food present if you are doing it right but besides that, I think the insinuation that you shouldn't be using food to train "anymore" is totally incorrect...or I totally disagree with it at least. I think food treats as training rewards are not an issue for this dog, correct? And they can be valuable in re conditioning a guarder. You already signed on to feed this dog every day for the rest of her life. Whether you put it in a bowl or use it as payment for a job well done is inconsequential.
> 
> I know what you mean about the feelings it evokes when your dog growls at you. Just try to remember it is a pretty normal Form of communication for them. You are stressed out it sounds like, and your dog might be responding to this a little. It doesn't mean your bond with your dog is broken or you are a terrible dog owner or anything like that.


LOL! When it suits the folks on this site, these dogs are _supposed to be _working dogs. Do you think the shepherd spends 14 hours each day stuffing his dog with beef jerky pieces? How about cops? A lot of them do not use food rewards at all. The dog has its toy and only gets it if he has done something super: took down a bad guy, found the dope, whatever. The leader dog for the blind would be piss-poor if it expected a tid-bit every time it successfully navigated a curb and a low-hanging object in the path. 

But I suppose pet owners are supposed to be continually training with treats for the rest of their dogs' lives. I have no problem with training them as adults. And if I want to train something new, I might "barrow" a treat from the trainer -- but that is rare. Usually, I use my voice to let the dog know it did the right thing. My dogs don't "work" every day, but they had better listen to me when I tell them to do something. And they aren't going to get a treat for that -- it is their job. If I need them to come in or go out, or stay in the yard, or whatever, I tell them, they do it, I say thank you. Whoo hoo. I am the world's worst pet owner, LOL! But they listen to me, and they do not growl at me. I might come home and pass out pigs' ears to everyone, and I don't even ask them to sit for it. They get their food every day without sitting, staying, waiting, or anything else. And, I leave it be. Always. But if I have to dig a bone from the garbage or a pill out of their mouth, I can do it. If the little girls are feeding them, and they are excited for their food, or to see the girls, or both, and one of the girls dumps the food in the dish and then thinks she should have done that differently and puts her hand down there and moves the dish, there are no growls, no irritation. So I can let a ten year old girl go out and feed 15 GSDs she doesn't live with, more than half of whom share a kennel with another GSD. The girls can pass out treats to them. 

I am careful though who I have together. They have to be the right personalities, like the elderly Jenna and the puppy Kojak. Neither of them are going to snatch the treat out of the other's mouth or out of my nieces hand in fear that they will not get it. Quinn and Babs are the same way. Cujo and Hepsi don't care about food at all, but will take treats to be polite. Karma and Ramona are a little dicier. Karma is 4.5 and Ramona is a little over 1. Not sure if they will be together this time next year. The baby is a little more dominant than the dam, and so far that has been ok. But I am watching that. It may not always be ok. 

But, of course, my dogs are just not food aggressive. Or treat aggressive. I think the potential for that is built in. So nothing I did or didn't do. But if I had a dog that was food aggressive, I would not make food higher in value than it already is. I would not use treats in training. Just like, if I had a dog that was resource guarding a couch -- that dog would not have access to the living room, much less the couch. I certainly wouldn't use the couch for belly rubs. People get way too dependent on aids in training, prong collars, e-collars, treats. If you can get the foundations down, using treats, and your voice -- praise and negative markers, and timing, the training wheels can come off, and you can provide all the balance you need using your voice, and your doggies will adore you. Or well, mine adore me, and if they get a treat every other month they are doing great. It's funny, correction-collars proponents love to smack around those of us that don't use them by making fun of the use of treat-training. LOL! I have just as much intolerance for over-doing treats, as I do for correction collars. 

I see training as the opportunity to learn to communicate with the dog. When a dog is trained, it's owner/trainer has basic communication mastered between the human and the canine. The human uses words and/or body language to communicate what he/she wants the dog to do or not to do, the dog demonstrates its mastery of the communication by doing what it is told to do, and not doing what it is told not to do, or to stop doing. When done right, the owner/trainer learns what the dog is communicating through its body language as well. And the owner/trainer demonstrates how well trained they are, by adjusting what they are doing in response to the dog's communication. And, you have a working relationship. It does not require treats as a lure or a pay-check. 

As for dinner or breakfast -- these they are entitled to. I do not hold them ransome for behaviors. Nope. They deserve their breakfast and their dinner just for breathing in and breathing out. I do not like to add stress to dinner or breakfast. Enough stress as it is with a group of dogs all wanting you to hurry up and feed them, barking at whoever has been displaced from their kennel so you can get to the others. I just give them their food and do not make any big deal about it. If you make a bigger deal about food, then you can see an increase in food aggression, because you are making it higher in value. It's like making a big deal about leaving your dog for the day. You can create separation anxiety. If you keep comings and goings low-key, then you have a lot less problems with separation anxiety.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This dog is not a working dog, not a police k9, it is a pet. Food rewards can be very valuable in retraining a resource guarder. I have no problem with dogs getting food rewards for the duration of their lives if the following major criteria is met:

-rewards being used correctly, as a reward after the fact that makes the behavior "rewarding" if it was inherently not before hand. 
-reinforcement schedule random so the dog performs whether or not food is present and whether or not he gets a reward that time. 

Whether or not anyone uses food in their training is their personal choice. To me it is a valuable tool. There are limitations and pros and cons to all tools in my experience.

My only hope is that anyone reading this does not feel shamed or less than for using food in a situation where food is a good way to teach or cobdition.

I do not feel that proper training is holding a dog hostage or holding its food hostage. if enough food is used in training then ithe should be removed from the Daily ration so the dog does not get fat.

Though I would always rather a dog earn his daily ration in NILF than have a free meal and then confeontation, possibly physical with its owner. I think earning food through reward training is a better way to deal with ano aggressive dog or a guarder than confrontation or physical punishment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This dog is not a working dog, not a police k9, it is a pet. Food rewards can be very valuable in retraining a resource guarder. I have no problem with dogs getting food rewards for the duration of their lives if the following major criteria is met:
> 
> -rewards being used correctly, as a reward after the fact that makes the behavior "rewarding" if it was inherently not before hand.
> -reinforcement schedule random so the dog performs whether or not food is present and whether or not he gets a reward that time.
> ...


You need to join in on the prong collar threads where everyone is shamed and accused of offering a cookie for behaviors they feel require the collars for. 

Treats should be phased out in training. You can get a dog that will only do something if he knows you have something in your pocket. Treats are to load your praise like they load a clicker. Eventually you should no longer need the treat, just the click. But I don't want to click, so I just load the praise with puppies. Then we phase out treats, by giving them for the best or quickest down, or after three good exercises. Then we should be able to eliminate them altogether. 

I think some people do run into problems when they continue to use treats for training. But whatever works for you, I guess. The idea that a dog might be aggressive with its owner if you do not make him work for his dinner, well I find that unfathomable.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If the dog only works/complies/responds when food is present, then it is being used incorrectly, which I have been saying or trying to say all along. 

Selzer I think you misunderstood what I said about making a dog work for its meals. First, let me assure you there are tons of pet dogs out there being aggressive with their owners. I understand your own dogs don't guard food, neither do my current two, but there are lots who do. I did not say that if the dog didn't work for his dinner he would bite his owner. I was trying to make a point about two different training ideologies: 1 Cesar millan-ish, confront the dog with the resource and force it to back down. 2, use the food the dog was going to eat anyway in training to recondition a different response with no confrontation. 

I think possibly you are misunderstanding clicker training, too. The theory that you can load association onto the clicker or other marker is also subject to extinction. If you no longer reward after the marker forever more, the association faxes and goes away.

Some dogs are willing/able to work for verbal or physical praise. For some dogs a toy or a food treat is way more rewardingdog"For some dogs touching and petting is the opposite of rewarding. Some owners struggle to deliver physical and verbal praise that is actually rewarding to the dog. If food works instead, and that reduces stress in training and gets more compliance then I can't see how it's a problem.

I say again Selzer like I have said on other issues...if your personal dogs work for verbal and physical praise and without the use of any tools then that's great. But I am not clear on why that translates into "no one should use food to train an adult dog


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> ...if your personal dogs work for verbal and physical praise and without the use of any tools then that's great. But I am not clear on why that translates into "no one should use food to train an adult dog


Yes. Or, conversely, that a choke/prong/ecollar is *the* cure to whatever ails you/the dog. I think it very much depends on the dog and the owner's skill set (which is where, for example, an experienced trainer might prove helpful in determining what's likely to be most useful in a given situation --- assuming of course that the trainer has no inflexible agenda to push (e.g., positive only OR compulsion only training). 

I use treats to reward _attempts _when I'm trying to teach new things or when chaining (what I believe to be ) learned behaviors. It's always paired with verbal praise and pats. Why? Well, I'm sure that I could craft some research based justification for this (variable reinforcement schedules and so on), but the bottom line is that I'm very physical and I want the animal to _know _that I'm delighted when they give me what I ask for. I also want more than just compliance, I want them to be _happy_ to do what I ask. After all, I'm trying to build a partnership. If treats facilitate reaching that goal and they seem to, I'm good. 


Aly


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer I think you misunderstood what I said about making a dog work for its meals. First, let me assure you there are tons of pet dogs out there being aggressive with their owners. I understand your own dogs don't guard food, neither do my current two, but there are lots who do. I did not say that if the dog didn't work for his dinner he would bite his owner. * I was trying to make a point about two different training ideologies: 1 Cesar millan-ish, confront the dog with the resource and force it to back down. 2, use the food the dog was going to eat anyway in training to recondition a different response with no confrontation. *


There are other training ideologies than these two. If a dog is having trouble with a resource like food, making food an even higher value item seems to be counter-productive, and the fact that a lot of people out there seems to encourage this line of thinking. 

Current training thought is to begin with treats and go heavy on them. And according to you, a lot of owners are now having trouble with dogs who guard food. Instead of attacking the symptom as with the bolded, lets go after the cause of the symptom. Why is the dog guarding food? Why is there insecurity about his food, lets address that first. If it means feeding him in a crate, or when the other dogs are put away, and leaving the food dish alone so that you are being trust worthy. 

Is that enough, probably not. Some folks find it helpful to add even better stuff to the dish so that the dog associates positive stuff happening, when his people are near his dish. This is a training ideology. 

If a dog is resource-guarding food because he lived deprived of food or because he is full of himself, and feels entitled, you might deal with these differently. For the boy who is full of himself, you might up your regular training sessions to improve the perception of who belongs where through training in other areas, could make a positive impact in this one. For the dog that had been deprived, patience, a reliable schedule, and trustworthiness might be the answer. If the problem is with the dish itself, using a cookie sheet or no bowl at all might be the answer. There are many training ideologies. 

There is also a LOT of bad training out there. The dog is jumping on the counter -- a behavior you do not want. The trainer suggests luring the dog off with a treat. The dog is smart. The dog learns that the treat jar is opened when his feet are on the counter. The dog learns to run to the counter, and jump up looking for goodies or to be rewarded by a goodie by putting his paws up on it. Good job! 


Shepherds are prone to bloat. I am not going to add stress when it comes to feeding dinner. If you are in training, knock down feeding portions to cover the treats you use in classes. But I cannot see a single case of where removing dinner and feeding him his dinner in the process of training would improve a food-aggression issue. It will just increase the dog's anxiety and anticipation about their food, and it will increase the dog's sense of ownership when it is given to him, and might increase his desire to guard.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Okay...Selzer, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying because the responses you give seem to be making associations that I don't think are there.

For instance, you made a statement that seemed to suggest there is a correlation between using food in training and resource guarding. All of the resource guarders that I personally know & can think of off the top of my head were dogs who had zero training as they developed it, or who actually had food free training. Several were adult rescues who were likely rehome due to that issue and recycled thru some of these rescues who transport across country. So, no correlation there.

As for using food to recondition a guarder, Selzer, is this work you have done? I don't know how many hrs of it I have done but a LOT, with different dogs, the dogs are not stressed and anxious, they are generally pretty calm and interested in the process when it is going right.

As for your example of opening a cookie jar to lure a dog down off a counter...that's just plain bad dog handling...silliness...using bad bad training as an example of why no one should ever use food to train a dog just isn't a fair reason in my opinion.

I believe food is super useful for counter conditioning a food motivated dog and for getting a dog to perform a novel behavior without having to apply physical pressure to that dog either by leash or hands. It's good for administering quick rewards for successive approximations of a new behavior.

It has its strengths and limitations just like everything else.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

The idea that a dog should get to a high enough level of training that they don't deserve a paycheck is, imo, laughable. Humans would never succumb to that level of thinking! If you do your job you deserve a reward/paycheck. Period. 

Now, for dogs, it is true every action does not deserve a treat or a toy. But I dare you to ask any good K9 handler be it LE, MWD, SAR, or service dog handler how important treats/rewards are.. Guaranteed they will let you know that a proper reward at the correct time seals in the DAILY action. It isn't like a dog works all day without little rewards and big rewards for the big jobs. 

Now, we are talking about a per, and I do subscribe to the idea that in this day and age dogs are over treated for seemingly no reason, but 'because'. That is not being a savvy handler, imo, but if no bad behavior occurs then cool for them. I do believe certain 'basic' behaviors that we train into them at a young age should not require constant treats. If I ask the dog to come and sit by me, it is expected, a pet and good dog is their reward. But if I do that multiple times in a given period, I am now working the dog and thus a paycheck is owed. Just as much as anyone 3lse going to work expects their due monies. 

I've seen treat drops work for food guarders. If one doesn't expect to lose what they have but gain more, the need to be posessively aggressive diminishes. But as has been stated, there are many ways to train, not all good and certainly not all bad. To each his own. If the dog improves more power to them, it works!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Dogs should always get a reward. It just depends on the dog what reward is good enough. 

For some dogs it's a "good boy", a treat, a pet, a toy. And as they get better at their job, the rewards become more variable in spacing. But they still earn a "paycheck". 

I am positive that some dogs get enough reward with handler praise. Some don't as well. And I think it's flawed thinking that ANY AND EVERY dog should get the sane reward. 

My personal dogs, lots of rewards in the beginning then going to a variable reward schedule then rewards phased out for the most part. But they do still get rewards. Whether it's me acting a fool a bit of play. 

I have worked dogs in high stress situations long enough to know that if we don't pay them to their satisfaction then their work suffers. To sonevthat may mean failing a Rally test. To others, like myself, that means not working hard enough to save a human life. Sorry. But when I am asking my dog to search for hours on end in 90 degrees, that reward better beat out their discomfort. Or they stop trying as hard.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

^^^ this! Great post.. And absolutely agree each dog has their own reward of value that can differ greatly from another dog. 

Anyone who has worked their dogs for long periods, in difficult and/or stressful conditions know the importance of a reward that never gets phased out.. Ever..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs are not humans and they don't get pay checks and they do not have to work for their dinner. 

Dogs, GSDs, are called velcro-dogs. Mine are excited to go with me and do whatever I want them to do. I think we can condition them to require/expect leash corrections and we can condition them to require/expect treats. And they may fall flat if they are not forthcoming. 

Motivation and rewards do not have to be food-related. When you have a dog that is not motivated by food, you have to dig deeper into your training tool-box. A lot of working-dog people don't try with a dog that isn't food-motivated or doesn't show ball-drive. 

Perhaps after that first dog that was neither, but having figured out how to motivate her, perhaps I just implement what I used for her and that and deviations specific to various dogs worked far more effectively than pumping treats into them. Communication and relationship can be effective without treats.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I certainly know dogs, mostly not GSDs, who go into exctasy when a person pets them and will work for that. You definitely aren't going to make a resource guarder feel better by petting them! But you can change their whole attitude and perception by rewarding and trading up, and it's totally non confrontational, and it works.

I think recent posts brought up some really good points about when and why if ever, reward ends.

My bottom line is...I spent so long shunning certain training tools and methods due to ideology that turned out to be (as far as I am concerned) false. 

Since learning a whole new way of doing things and realizing how much better our lives could be as a result, I try to keep an open mind. Almost anything can be done or used wrong and make matters worse, but I don't think it's fair to lay blame on the whole process or tool due to bad training by an individual, for me that goes for prongs, e collars, food, just about anything you can use to train a dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My working dogs get paid for their work...

I totally agree motivation doesn't have to be from food. But it can be, and sometimes that is good, useful, and the best tool for the job...

My current young dog is not so into food. I work with him a little differently than a super food motivated dog. I like ones that are different because it gives me a chance to learn something new.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The dog that falls flat if the food is not forthcoming is a dog that was trained poorly, Selzer. on that I feel pretty steadfast. A dog that was properly trained will work whether there is food anywhere nearby or not.


A true reward is something that comes AFTER the response has happened. When I call my dog in and I know he doesn't want to come in, I know he wants to keep playing but he hauls in to me anyway, I will grab him a hunk of cheese out of the fridge. He had no way of knowing whether he would get cheese or not but because he did, next time I call him from the yard he is more likely to tear himself away and come running because of that...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Dogs do get "paychecks" and work for their rewards. Semantics if you want to argue. I personally do not have my dogs work for their dinner, but they are working dogs. They have many many many times put in 8hr days, trailed miles upon miles in rugged terrain in order to find someone lost. They do it because the love to trail and find whatever they are told to, however, they get rewarded and EXPECT that reward for their efforts. It is deserved and they continue to work through the distractions and difficulties because there will be a reward. 

A good handler will find whatever floats the boat of their dog, be it food, toys, or a game of chase/tug, whatever. There is a distinction though between the pet dog and the working dog.. Few pet dogs will ever have to work in the conditions, duration, and for the importance working dogs do. So for those dogs, you can probably get away with a no reward for basic occasional commands. My dogs are velcro dogs as well, but I would suck as an owner and handler if I did not find a way to keep their motivations high for the work they do. On demand. At ridiculous times and conditions and in weather no creature would prefer to be in...


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I have a resource guarder. He was that even as a puppy with no other competition for his food/toys. Now, at 4, he's over the toy guarding (from the three of us that he lives with, at least) and does not food guard from *me*. He still has it in him, that's just the way he's wired.

He is NOT praise motivated .. at all. That cannot be used as a reward. Valued toy is the highest reward, followed by food. It's frustrating for me that I can't use praise, but that's the way he is.


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