# BC for IPO



## BitingBC397 (Dec 11, 2014)

Hello, new here. 


I got a border collie cause I heard they were the smartest breed. Shortly after a friend introduced me to the world of protection sports. I wish I got a GSD instead cause I only have room for one dog! Love my BC but this is the sport for me, I see myself going very far...However I am willing to work with what I have, my border collie does love to bite things and she enjoys tracking bunnies on the trails. 

I'm a very competitive person. Would it be possible to get a border collie to nationals? 
(Ideally we want the podium but first we have to learn basic obedience. I have been told by many professional trainers not to train dogs at all until they are one year old, something I've seen challenged on this forum??. My dog is 8 months old BTW.)


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Whoever says not to train a dog until they are a year old is pretty ignorant. Dogs are information sponges and the working breeds especially are looking for things to do from puppyhood. It's kind of silly not to provide an outlet through at least obedience training.

As for protection sport, well...BC's are indeed extremely intelligent, but you don't typically see many of them in that sport because they weren't really bred to do that kind of work. Border collies tend to control with their "stare", body language, and more of a "nipping" bite than a "gripping" bite and the concern I've heard is that it is extremely difficult to get the full, committed bite that you're looking for in IPO.

That being said, if you can find an IPO trainer that understands how to adapt the training to different breeds, you can certainly try and you may even be successful. It will all come down to an understanding of your dog's drive and nerve and how to best develop those for the behavior you're looking for on the protection field.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

I don't think border collies have the temperament to deal with the stress of bite work. 
Getting to the Nationals isn't going to happen. Getting a sch1?? maybe


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

d4mmo said:


> I don't think border collies have the temperament to deal with the stress of bite work.
> Getting to the Nationals isn't going to happen. Getting a sch1?? maybe


Honestly, it will depend on the dog. I've seen stranger things happen. We actually have a fairly frequent visitor at our store who has a Golden Retriever with a Sch3. 

It would be a very long shot, but the best way to know will be to find a club willing to help you and start working.


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## BitingBC397 (Dec 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> Border collies tend to control with their "stare", body language, and more of a "nipping" bite than a "gripping" bite and the concern I've heard is that it is extremely difficult to get the full, committed bite that you're looking for in IPO.


I flirt pole my dog a lot and sometimes she gets overexcited and redirects onto my arms...when she does it is a beautiful full grip, even though it hurts I am in awe of this dog's power!! NO WORRIES there, friend.



> That being said, if you can find an IPO trainer that understands how to adapt the training to different breeds, you can certainly try and you may even be successful. It will all come down to an understanding of your dog's drive and nerve and how to best develop those for the behavior you're looking for on the protection field.


THANK YOU. We have a very close bond and I know her like the back of my hand.



d4mmo said:


> I don't think border collies have the temperament to deal with the stress of bite work.
> Getting to the Nationals isn't going to happen. Getting a sch1?? maybe


Wow. You do not know me or my dog, yet you put a limit on what we can achieve!! This is not my first dog I have worked with, my training knowledge is vast. I grew up showing Papillons in conformation, and I did all the training on them outside of the show ring because my parents didn't care beyond that. I am driven to train.

I have a breed that is not perfectly suited for the sport, but I am willing to work NIGHT and DAY to get to the highest levels, even though it may be harder and more work than MOST could handle. My dog has amazing nerves, she does not startle easily and is ready to defend me at any moment. She is an amazing natural protection dog.


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

I think the BC would struggle with the protection. However, they should rock the obedience. The only thing you can do is try. I would never say that it cannot be done. Being a first time handler, it would be a feat to make it to nationals with any dog. It will certainly be an uphill battle but weirder things have happened. I wish you luck!


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## BitingBC397 (Dec 11, 2014)

Pax8 said:


> Honestly, it will depend on the dog. I've seen stranger things happen. We actually have a fairly frequent visitor at our store who has a Golden Retriever with a Sch3.


Stranger indeed, my dog is nothing like a golden retriever in temperament!! She is VERY protective of me, will growl at dirty looks from people who she feels a threat from. I would NOT be trying to do this if she had not shown me some talent and I did not feel made for this sport.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You should find a club and get your dog evaluated - there are a number of Border Collies out there with SchHIII's - Can't predict anything about the Nationals, but just getting her titled would be a a big accomplishment. 

I wouldn't worry too much about the Nationals to start with - you'll find that there is so much to learn that it is overwhelming, and just getting started is a big step. You will also find a whole new understanding of what is good temperament and protectiveness - what you describe is resource guarding, more than protectiveness and should be discouraged, but not to say that she does not have natural protective instincts that can be developed through training.

Most people (and I do mean MOST), start their SchH/IPO adventure as you have - they have a dog, find out about IPO, decide to try it, go as far as they can, pick up a few titles if they can, then move on to a more suitable dog that they can reach their goals with. 

But that is years down the road - first step is find a club, and have fun!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Technically, no, you will not be going to Nationals, let alone getting on the podium because there is no Nationals for BC in IPO. In the states you could work towards the AWDF championships which will get you to the FCI World championships. The USCA Working Dog Championship (WDC) also allows alternate breeds. 

There have been BC with SchH3 in the past. Last one I saw was at the USCA Nationals in 2000 when non GSD were still allowed. BC tend to lack the power, hardness and aggression needed to get the points in protection. Not saying it could never happen, but those traits are very much against what a BC should be. 

Waiting until a dog is more mature to work protection is not always a bad idea. I tend to do this, BUT I do track and work obedience with my young dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a thought: People that train in IPO are serious. It takes a ton of dedication. Your dog should be able to do the OB and tracking but protection may be questionable. It's not an insult, it's just the truth. 

You could save yourself a lot of grief by not being so defensive and listening to the people with experience that have posted here. IPO is worlds away from showing Papillons, or any breed, in conformation. You will learn so much about dogs, drives and temperament required to do the job if you listen. If you go into it with the attitude that you have "vast" experience, I think you will find it far more difficult. Just don't try to shove a square peg into a round hole at the expense of your dog's well being.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Over the past 2 years I have been around more BCs than GSDs because of my recent involvement in agility and flyball (and everyone on my team fosters BCs for a local rescue). They are definitely smart, flashy, sporty dogs with a lot of drive and intensity but not what I would consider powerful or real convincing in bitework. I don't mean chasing rag toys and biting hard and fast, I mean fighting against real mental and physical pressure. I know several very, very nice BCs as far as BCs go but don't come anywhere near impressing me as a true protection and fighting dog. When my team mates tell me they have a nice BC it is a very different temperament then when I say I have a nice GSD. That's not a put down because a BC is a BC, not a GSD. You can definitely title a BC in IPO, but as far as getting on the podium, protection may be iffy. I mean, I know plenty of really tough, strong GSDs that can't get on a podium with their protection work.

Definitely get with a club now and start working the dog in whatever is appropriate. We can't say what without seeing the dog. It may be foundation tracking and some obedience. It may be more or it may be less.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't have a ton of BC experience, but I did have one recently for a board and train. His obedience was very nice and flashy. He had a great work ethic and connection with his handler. 

I think the downfall would be nerve strength in the protection work. My concern would be the mental ability to take pressure from a helper. Just my $.02


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

I am not an IPO expert by any means but this video of a Chihuaha doing protection work is pretty inspiring for non-GSD breeds wanting to give it a try.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpvngUUXemQ


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

DVG is open to any and all breeds. So nationals in DVG is possible. In our club we have a small mixed breed dog that is doing great - a little black and white who knows what but she's coming right along. 

With a BC it depends on the particular dog (just like with GSDs). Some BCs are soft, some are hard. They're pretty amazing dogs. 

And as someone said earlier in the thread, don't worry about the nationals right now. This is more challenging than it appears. You have plenty to learn ahead of you - get your BH & celebrate that, then move along to the rest of it. 

(And when you ask for someone's opinion, please don't slam them when they are skeptical - you asked, they took the time to respond. Maybe not the answer you wanted but that sometimes happens when you ask.)


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I always forget about the DVG. Yes, they are also an option.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The only problem with DVG is I'm assuming to compete in their national you have to be a member, and if I recall you can no longer be a member at large, so the OP would need to join a DVG club.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

BitingBC397 said:


> Wow. You do not know me or my dog, yet you put a limit on what we can achieve!! This is not my first dog I have worked with, my training knowledge is vast. I grew up showing Papillons in conformation, and I did all the training on them outside of the show ring because my parents didn't care beyond that. I am driven to train.
> 
> I have a breed that is not perfectly suited for the sport, but I am willing to work NIGHT and DAY to get to the highest levels, even though it may be harder and more work than MOST could handle. My dog has amazing nerves, she does not startle easily and is ready to defend me at any moment. She is an amazing natural protection dog.




Prove me wrong


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

As the owner of a Border Collie and two GSDs that I compete with, I would be extremely surprised if you achieved such a goal.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I applaud you for your determination. That in itself will take you a long way. Go for it and learn everything you can along the way. 
Read these responses carefully as there is alot of good information from very experienced people, all of whom will take the time to help you along the way. 

Knowledge is power.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

"The only problem with DVG is I'm assuming to compete in their national you have to be a member, and if I recall you can no longer be a member at large, so the OP would need to join a DVG club. " And what would be wrong with that??? It's a good training venue, you're not going to be able to train for an IPO title very well completely on your own anyway.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> As the owner of a Border Collie and two GSDs that I compete with, I would be extremely surprised if you achieved such a goal.


IPO is different than disc,flyball or agility...the pressure is completely different and IMO no comparison. Especially with three phases to train in. 



> Just a thought: People that train in IPO are serious. It takes a ton of dedication. Your dog should be able to do the OB and tracking but protection may be questionable. It's not an insult, it's just the truth.
> 
> You could save yourself a lot of grief by not being so defensive and listening to the people with experience that have posted here. IPO is worlds away from showing Papillons, or any breed, in conformation. You will learn so much about dogs, drives and temperament required to do the job if you listen. If you go into it with the attitude that you have "vast" experience, I think you will find it far more difficult. *Just don't try to shove a square peg into a round hole at the expense of your dog's well being.*


 I agree, be fair to the dog always!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

BitingBC397 said:


> Hello, new here.
> 
> 
> I got a border collie cause I heard they were the smartest breed. Shortly after a friend introduced me to the world of protection sports. I wish I got a GSD instead cause I only have room for one dog! Love my BC but this is the sport for me, I see myself going very far...However I am willing to work with what I have, my border collie does love to bite things and she enjoys tracking bunnies on the trails.
> ...


A bc at my club was one of my favorite dogs to train. A good working bc can handle the stress of a good working line GSD. An amazing bc probably cannot handle what an amazing working GSD can. But with prey/low stress oriented IPO these days, you got as good a shot at nationals as anyone else.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> A bc at my club was one of my favorite dogs to train. A good working bc can handle the stress of a good working line GSD. An amazing bc probably cannot handle what an amazing working GSD can. *But with prey/low stress oriented IPO these days, you got as good a shot at nationals as anyone else*.


Brian(or John) summed it up nicely:
Preserving the Fundamentals of Schutzhund | PronouncedK9


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Duplicate


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Brian(or John) summed it up nicely:
> Preserving the Fundamentals of Schutzhund | PronouncedK9


I speed read that, but I agree with everything read. I'd argue my interest is in training real protection dogs and if we can trial, fine. If my training is mutually exclusive with titling in IPO, well... So long to IPO. I'll turn in my helper book and trial books and do what I was going to do either way. Given some of the most skilled people in the country and overseas find merit in my training and in my dogs, I tend to be comfortable that I'm not on a delusional course lol.

For the same reasons as that article, when people argue to remove hazing in the USMC, I tell them to keep opinions out of things they neither understand nor have experienced.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I trained in a club with a schutzhund III border collie-the dog did the work in prey-the problem you are going to encounter is what you have already encountered -people telling you -you can't or not taking you seriously -the border collie was also used to help teach helper-excellent dog to learn on-the nationals are just for GSDs-


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> IPO is different than disc,flyball or agility...the pressure is completely different and IMO no comparison. Especially with three phases to train in.


I'm not really sure if you're disagreeing with me, or... 

I know they're different... I've gone to IPO training and worked Patton a couple of times. I don't have any doubt that they aren't comparable... I'm not sure if my post made it sound like I thought they were? 

I understand the training and drives for each sport, and don't think MOST BCs would be suitable for protection work, even in prey. They're very soft dogs, 9 times out of 10, so I would be surprised if you could get a BC to podium in any protection sport.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Protection phase of IPO is arguably low stress and "prey" based, etc. But there are other considerations when training a dog in protection. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRvCKulu1u8.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> Protection phase of IPO is arguably low stress and "prey" based, etc. But there are other considerations when training a dog in protection. For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRvCKulu1u8.


I agree with what he said for the most part. With a caveat that he doesn't distinguish between defense docs and aggressive dogs. He seems to lump any nonprey behavior into the same (bad) category... But he is a Mali guy anyway


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