# No pull harnesses (actually all harnesses) harming our dogs?



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The No-Pull Debate - Whole Dog Journal Article

The No-Pull Debate from Whole Dog Journal



> Recently, WDJ received a letter from Christine Zink, DVM, PhD, DACVP, DACVSMR, who was concerned about the photo in WDJ (on the cover, no less!) of a jogger whose dog, running alongside, was wearing a front-clip-type harness. A sports medicine guru and canine athlete enthusiast, Dr. Zink (and others) posit that no-pull harnesses are detrimental to a dog’s structure and gait – and are especially inappropriate for canine athletes.
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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Where is the leap to all harnesses? Sounds like she is talking about the restrictive, no-pull types? I have a few harnesses I use (mainly for flyball and nosework) but specifically fit them to sit higher up on the chest, like where a loosely fitted collar or fursaver would lie, so that it doesn't restrict the dog being able to extend forward or jump. I no longer use the no-pull harnesses because they just haven't worked as effectively as other tools and are easy for a wild dog to get out of.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Doesn't she say her concerns are about the dogs walking differently (distribute their weight differently) even when the harness isn't attached to a leash? Wouldn't that same occur with any harness?

I only copied/pasted part of the article with the link to the rest.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that is why they are no pull -- they hobble


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

“I do not believe that there is a harness on the market that is nonrestrictive and that also helps the dog not to pull,” says Dr. Zink.” There are however some very nice, well constructed, nonrestrictive harnesses on the market. However, those should not be considered as a method to teach a dog not to pull. In my opinion the real way to get a dog to stop pulling is to train it.”

It isn't all harnesses, just the ones that are designed to inhibit the dog's pulling. I know my harness that I use to bike with is fine, it's got the D ring on the back, and my dog has complete freedom in it. I'd like the strap under his chest to be a tad longer, but then he'd be able to get out of it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Doesn't she say her concerns are about the dogs walking differently (distribute their weight differently) even when the harness isn't attached to a leash? Wouldn't that same occur with any harness?
> 
> I only copied/pasted part of the article with the link to the rest.


The article talks about the difference between a no-pull harness and a "non-restrictive" harness. I purposely fit my harnesses so they *don't* fit like a no-pull harness and don't restrict movement. For example, for flyball the dogs obviously need to be able to jump and fully extend. I want the harness to sit high on the chest, under the chin. I also don't fit them that tight, they are not being used to keep the dog with me (dog's already trained for that).


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I have often wondered about this. I see some of my clients' dogs are using these harnesses, and some of them do seem to have an odd gait, or weird structure. Hard to describe, but the structure and gait just doesn't look right to me. Can't say if it was caused by the harness, but it is odd.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I got this harness for Nikon b/c I didn't like how the ComfortFlex fit, it was too low and IMO, restrictive. This one fits higher up (it's basically touching his collar) and the front strap is pretty loose. I've had him wear it for flyball, dock diving, and agility just to be sure he moves the same and has a full range of motion. The picture was taken the day it came, you can see it looks quite stiff. We've since broken it in better and I have it laying nice and high across the front of his chest.









The easy walk type harnesses are usually fit lower


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

There's nothing wrong with Nikon's harness. It's sweet! Mine is cheaper, with a strap on the back to connect the neck band with the chest band. The article isn't referring to these types of harness.


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## arby665 (Nov 21, 2012)

Great. Just another way I'm screwing up my dogs. I'm going to forward this article to the trainer who insisted I buy the no-pull harness.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In contrast, I use a ComfortFlex on my pit mix and like how it fits on her. She wears it for flyball and also just for walks. 

It really depends on the conformation of the individual dog and what the harness is for. I've used a no-pull harness when leash training Coke and would do so again, it worked fine for him and was a temporary training tool. However it hasn't worked well for any of the physically stronger (mostly pit mixes) and higher drive dogs I've trained or fostered since him so I no longer use it, but I haven't thrown it away.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I'd sooner use a prong collar than a no-pull harness. And at a certain point I'd actually bother to TRAIN the dog so that he doesn't pull on leash. No-pull harnesses are a crutch for the weak and lazy.  Not really, I've heard people say the same thing about prong collars, or any other training tool.

Seriously though, I've noticed that most of my clients that use no-pull harnesses tend to have untrained dogs. They are the same owners who use doggie playcare and dog parks to exercise and stimulate their dog, rather than interacting with them personally or training them. At least they're doing SOMETHING, though. Gotta give 'em credit! Some people just throw their dogs in the backyard and ignore them when the cute puppy phase is over.

Sorry for the little rant there, I didn't get enough sleep last night.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes and no. It's a matter of priority. I don't use or need the harness anymore with Coke, though as a general rule anytime I am outweighed (literally) by dog, everyone wears a prong. I have nothing to prove. I have already titled dogs in a dozen different sports/disciplines. I can train dogs to perform circus routines in front of a crowd if that's what is called for, but when we're out "in the real world" safety is #1. For a dog like Coke, perfect leash walking isn't a priority. He's not a very active dog, tends to get overwhelmed in new situations so not a dog I travel with or bring to public events (other than a few things he's used to like visiting my husband's classroom and walking in the parades). It doesn't really matter to me at what point someone else thinks he is "trained". If he is comfortable and happy on a walk and I feel he is safe and being compliant, I really don't care whether he's wearing a flat collar, prong, Easy Walk, or even Gentle Leader.

One thing I don't do is desensitize a dog to a training tool. For example if I put an EW or GL on a dog and it's clear the dog does not like it, then I don't bother. Many dogs *are* more comfortable just wearing a prong than another training device. Coke HATED the GL which is what a lot of the training centers around here push people to use. He never minded the Easy Walk harness one bit and when we adopted him as a 1.5 year old large dog with NO training or manners, it really did help.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

As far as the prong goes, it's apples and oranges. The restrictive harnesses are to correct pulling, nothing more. The prong collar is a correction tool, so assuming the dog is already trained not to pull, it's still an effective tool to issue corrections with. I prefer a verbal correction first, but if that's ignored then a pop will be next. While walking, I do care about eating garbage ("Leave it") or nuisance barking ("Quiet") or whatever different commands that might be blown off. I'm not one to keep repeating commands, so it works well for me in that respect.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Liesje said:


> In contrast, I use a ComfortFlex on my pit mix and like how it fits on her. She wears it for flyball and also just for walks.


 I can't find these in Canada!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> However, those should not be considered as a method to teach a dog not to pull. In my opinion the real way to get a dog to stop pulling is to train it.”


Agreed. No-pull harnesses, haltis, gentle leaders are just management tools. They don't teach the dog anything. As soon as you put them on a collar, it is back to pulling.
The motivation has to come from the inside out through training like clicker training.
One question remains. If there are no non-restrictive harnesses, how do sled dogs cope?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I can't take credit for that quote, wolfy dog. That was cut and pasted from the article - Dr. Zink deserves the credit, not me. 

The title of this thread is misleading. Not all harnesses are harming our dogs, and that's why I pasted her quote - to highlight that she does differentiate between restrictive and nonrestrictive.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Freestep said:


> And at a certain point I'd actually bother to TRAIN the dog so that he doesn't pull on leash.


I use a no-pull harness on Pongu. It isn't a training issue. Pongu is _way_ better trained than Crookytail, but he has to be on a no-pull and Crookytail, who is a comparative barbarian, can walk on a flat buckle collar.

The difference is that Pongu is a fearful dog and he will always be a fearful dog. He's prone to bolting at unexpected movements or noises. There is no "training" him out of bolting -- it's a reflexive startle response; he can't think when he's doing it. I can reduce that (and have, and continue to work on it every single day of his life), but I can't eliminate it.

Use of aversives would aggravate his responses; a prong is totally inappropriate for my situation. I need to do whatever I can to make walks pleasant and non-scary. So Pongu's on a no-pull, because it is the best option for us.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I bought an easy walker harness for Harry when I was having trouble with his pulling. I didn't like it at all, sat way too low (exactly like in the picture) so I put it on upside down, ie the black strap which is suppose to be under the belly was now on top, this seem to let the front strap fit higher to where a check chain would. However, it sits in the box of other useless stuff I have bought over the years and wouldn't recommend it at all. In terms of gait, I have not noticed a difference here, Harry has a fantastic gait so it wasn't detrimental in that regard, but in all honesty I didn't use it long enough. Also, I don't run, so it was only every used for walking.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

And head halters injure the neck, as do choke collars, as do prong collars, as does pretty much any man made devise out there  

Honestly, I think as long as any tool isn't over used or abused it can be beneficial if used properly. 

However, as with most things, people use them merely as a crutch and not a training tool so I can definitely see how any dog training item could potential cause harm.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Yes that is true about check/choke chains and prong collars, there have been reports of serious neck injuries from overuse and/or incorrect use of these.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Manipulating with the whole torso is easier than pulling by the neck in any direction. You can secure your dog on jumps, you can lift him to stand on back legs, I wouldn't describe here what you can do if your dog wears harness. But no, not while you are jogging and your dog is heeling. IMHO, that *should be done off leah only*, as any device would work as a sudden stopper even with a command, derailing your dog from naturally smooth line of turns.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackshep said:


> I can't find these in Canada!!


Clean Run ships to Canada: Clean Run: ComfortFlex Sport Harness


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I like Sense-ation harnesses for puppies. I adjust them as high on the chest as possible, so they don't restrict movement like the Easy Walk can. And while they certainly CAN be a crutch, they can also be used in training, just like you'd use a flat collar, by reinforcing the behavior you want. They don't completely prevent pulling, just minimize it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

e.rigby said:


> Honestly, I think as long as any tool isn't over used or abused it can be beneficial if used properly.


I don't mean to pick on you but...can someone elaborate? At what point is a tool "overused" or "abused"? What about flat collars? What is the standard to which we're holding dog owners here? The dog must heel in public off leash? Or is using a leash and flat collar ALL the time *not* "over using" that particular tool? Does anyone really care if a dog always walks on a halter or a prong as long as the dog is going for a walk and happy? Personally I've never really noticed or cared what people use. A dog that is darting up into peoples' yard, a dog zig-zaggin all over, a dog dragging the owner around...to me that looks way more awkward on a flat collar and leash than a dog trotting nicely down the sidewalk a few paces ahead of the owner but on a slack leash and wearing a prong collar. Is management really "lazy" or just safe? I err on the side of the latter. I prove my training in competition, not just trying to take 2-4 dogs on a long walk and ensure that none of them can pull me over or slip a collar.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sled dogs can actually have a lot of trouble with the harness. Many have lower back issues as they get older, and I see many running very crooked in harness- crabbing severely- due to the constant awkward pulling.

Harness fit is important and can be done right, but mushers with 50 dogs are generally not that careful with harness fit. Most just use an X-back and forget about it.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> At what point is a tool "overused" or "abused"?


Boy, _there's_ a massive can of worms. 

Next you'll want to know what the definition is of a "responsible breeder" or a "good rescue" or a "well-trained dog."

Me, I'm just gonna duck quietly out of this thread and to the less contentious world of actual litigation.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't mean to pick on you but...can someone elaborate? At what point is a tool "overused" or "abused"? What about flat collars? What is the standard to which we're holding dog owners here?


That I cannot tell you. However, there are people out there that believe a simple flat collar is harmful. When used on a dog that hasn't been trained it can cause issues. So again... 

Anyway, I was just trying to get the point across that tools are useful in teaching desired behaviors... if you are using them properly and putting forth the effort and training, eventually the ultimate goal is to have a dog that does not need the initial tool... I'd not say this dog should be walked off leash, but when walking on leash on a flat collar the dog isn't pulling and causing pressure to its neck... make sense? 

The article seemed to be an attack against a harness that is used as a tool in teaching a dog to walk. I've seen articles that attack pretty much every devise out there (yes, again, even the flat collar)... so I'm interested in the problems it 'could' cause, but I'm not going to freak out and think it's a harmful tool in and of itself! Just like I don't think a prong collar is harmful in and of itself


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Harry and Lola said:


> I bought an easy walker harness for Harry when I was having trouble with his pulling. I didn't like it at all, sat way too low (exactly like in the picture) so I put it on upside down, ie the black strap which is suppose to be under the belly was now on top, this seem to let the front strap fit higher to where a check chain would. However, it sits in the box of other useless stuff I have bought over the years and wouldn't recommend it at all. In terms of gait, I have not noticed a difference here, Harry has a fantastic gait so it wasn't detrimental in that regard, but in all honesty I didn't use it long enough. Also, I don't run, so it was only every used for walking.


wait weren't you the one that said you used one for your dog even though he doesnt like it and tries to get it off?? and you'll continue using it even though your dog is like advanced obedience trained or whatever??


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Generally the most non restrictive harnesses are the type I call a Y style harness. Any harness that has a strap going across the chest at all can restricts shoulder movement and affect the dog's movement/gait. Something like this where there is freedom of movement in the legs/shoulders and no straps going across or getting in the way of the shoulder movement is what I would call a non-restrictive harness:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Use of aversives would aggravate his responses; a prong is totally inappropriate for my situation. I need to do whatever I can to make walks pleasant and non-scary. So Pongu's on a no-pull, because it is the best option for us.


 Yes, I think the no-pull harness makes sense in your case. Actually it makes sense in a lot of cases. In my area it seems to be the go-to solution for dogs who pull, I guess because people perceive it to be "humane" or "gentle". But if it causes structural/gait problems, well, there's that. In that sense a prong would be a good alternative for the average to bullheaded dog, if the public can get over the barbaric looks of it. Or the headcollar, even.

I've just noticed a correlation in my area between no-pull harnesses and untrained dogs. I guess some folks figure that as long as they have the harness, they don't *need* to train the dog, right?


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> wait weren't you the one that said you used one for your dog even though he doesnt like it and tries to get it off?? and you'll continue using it even though your dog is like advanced obedience trained or whatever??


NO boomer I used a 'canny collar'

I initially tried the easy walker, but hated it.

Used the canny collar today actually for the first time in ages - was lovely


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Clean Run ships to Canada: Clean Run: ComfortFlex Sport Harness


Thank you!!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> that is why they are no pull -- they hobble


 Good one Carmen! Made for a good laugh this morning! :spittingcoffee:

Sorry back to what everyone was discussing..


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I am looking for a harness for Frodo myself. Simply because I've seen that having the leash clip on the back prevents the leash from tangling with the legs when training with a long line. 

Would you recommend this? 

Leather Canine Harness for Attack Training and Walking Large/Medium Breed Dogs [H1###1073 Leather Attack Training Dog Harness] - $54.90 : Dog harness , Dog collar , Dog leash , Dog muzzle - Dog training equipment from Trusted Direct Source - Home, Do

I kind of am leaning towards the the comfort flex mentioned in the article. Is it really non- restrictive?


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