# Dark evenings tap into prey-drive?



## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

Last night was the first time in weeks that I left for the evening walk without my bum bag filled with treats. We played at the park with tug and ball. I decided since she was panting and it was quite warm I’d go on a longer walk to a place in the river where she can swim to cool off. I knew it would be dark by the time I was returning (there’s no street lamps along this path by the river).

Once the sun went down I got loads of bad behaviours on the return home. She went to chase a cyclist that passed closely on the path. I had her on a short leash so it wasn’t an issue, I gave her a correction (that didn’t seem to sink in). She seemed to be in full hunt mode. Anyone she saw coming in the distance she got into the head-low full stare. I know this is the time to correct and get attention back to you. Usually I use my food bag. Luckily I could take her to the side of the path and put her into a sit-stay. I was glad she didn’t budge and I could hold the leash loosely. With the food bag I can put her into a sit-stay and she will make eye contact with me until she gets the food. Without the food bag she stared at the target.

Seems like a whole bunch of experiences she should have been de-sensitised to got missed with the long summer days.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

My dogs are in high alert mode when it's dark also.Most of us don't spend a lot of time with our dogs outside in the dark so I'm guessing it's like any other new thing that would take time and repetition to become familiar with.
In our case it's the nocturnal creatures that my dogs are hearing and scenting.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

My last walk of the day is always about 11:00 pm so in the dark 365 days per year. 
And it's in the woods. no street lights.

I used to never carry a flashlight and it's amazing how much even our eyes can adjust in almost pitch black. But the dark also brings out tons of raccoons, rabbits and coyotes. I see deer way more during the day than night since they're bedded down somewhere but the dogs are always on high alert and excited, the cooler air and smells seem to come alive so it's definitely different than in the day and you're dog needs increased perfect recall. I kind of feel like we're hunting together at those points but they need to stay within ~50 feet of me and have a solid "too far" and "come" recall.

And after a few too many close calls with skunks (1 too close/spray), I have to carry a strong flashlight.

But to address your specific concern re prey drive, absolutely the dark can change your dogs attention and attitude when they are forced top rely much more on their sense of smell and hearing although GSD are primarily sight (movement) hunters.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Ask yourself when canids hunt and you have your answer.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Makes me think of wolves, which are largely crepuscular (active at dawn and dusk). Maybe tapping into old instincts still buried down there, that dusk is the time to hunt!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

banzai555 said:


> Makes me think of wolves, which are largely crepuscular (active at dawn and dusk). Maybe tapping into old instincts still buried down there, that dusk is the time to hunt!


Dogs are crepuscular too, as are cats.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes, definitely. There are more animals out and fewer loud daytime noises. Mine are leashed at night because of coyotes. I won’t take a chance. Mine are most physically active late afternoon, but very alert late at night. However, they are always alert whenever they are out, but to different things.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Darkness can also trigger suspicion. 

There often are fewer people out after dark. This can cause a dog to hyperfocus and become reactive to what it normally would have ignored in a setting with more distractions.


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

I've definitely noticed her way more excitable and hyper when we have been out at dusk. I guess its obvious, but I was unprepared for her change in behaviour. Just when you think you've raised a good pup, curve-ball!

We bumped into another person walking there dog in a field on the way home. He was walking the perimeter, myself the centre. I knew the dog was coming a good way off cause I could hear the owner shouting after the dog. His little dog sprinted towards myself and Biscuit and scurried around us. He was very friendly but I didn't want Biscuit to play as she was extra frisky (she was off leash again at this point). They darted around each other for a few seconds and she re-called perfectly. While I'm certainly not going to say 'rock solid' I'm very happy she re-called mid-chase. We practice everyday on re-call and its definitely paid off, she has been off-leash from very early on.

Lots more dark hours walks for us heading into fall so plenty of time to get used to it.


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Darkness can also trigger suspicion.


Oh definitely this too! We can walk down a crowded promenade full of people and dogs completely calm and tranquil, but if we are in the bog in the rain and she see's someone coming in an otherwise empty place she also hyper-focus's. Its a very good point to remember.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would say due to the darkness, your pup perceived stimuli as more of a threat and was reacting in defense drive, which, if the case, should not be corrected.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Bear doesn’t chase anything at night that he wouldn’t during the day. If that’s the case, I don’t think it’s prey drive. He is much more alert and on the hunt at night, most likely because the animals he likes to chase and hunt are out. If I take him somewhere during the day where he knows animals he likes to chase are out, I get the same response. I also get a similar response going onto the training field.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Biscuit said:


> Anyone she saw coming in the distance she got into the head-low full stare. I know this is the time to correct and get attention back to you. Usually I use my food bag.


We throw the term “hunt” around quite a little bit here but let’s remember, any tendency to pursue wild game was traditionally discouraged since long before the breed was ever standardized. “Hunting” lost sheep and children, certainly, but I think in that sense terms like “search” and/or “track” might be more accurate?

Meanwhile heightened “alert/protect/guard” instincts after dark have always been highly desirable in pastoral situations, and my own gsd pup began exhibiting those characteristics/behaviors very early on.

I won’t even attempt to speculate what exactly you are observing there? But given you intend to conduct regular “night maneuvers” over the coming months, it seems to me you have a choice to make regarding socialization.

Not to derail the topic, but a word of caution. If you intend to rely on this dog to “protect” you, always remember that in reality, ultimately, heaven forbid, you would/will be required to protect it.

My advice, get a good tactical flashlight (many lumens), maintain total control of your environment at all times, encourage your dog to be outgoing and social, and if a stranger should attempt to crowd you or “test” your dog, shine them in the eyes with your flashlight and tell them firmly to just “back off.”

be aware that whenever/wherever a handler fails to maintain or loses control of a situation, a good dog will attempt to take control of that situation

like I kinda get this feel from the OP that without the food bag, you felt a bit vulnerable yourself? If you’re going to make the same rounds, night after night, you may encounter many of the same characters, night after night. Be proactive, like a real patrolman. Address them upon approach, then turn your focus to obedience. Don’t be nervous. Take charge like a real boss 

and in any case, please be sure to let us know how it works out


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

When it started getting hot this summer, I started taking pup on middle of the night and early morning hikes. He loves them. I would either run or walk a couple of miles and he would be off-leash to run free.

During the first part of the hike he would run around investigating everything that looked or smelled interesting. If I gave him two quick whistles it meant he should check in with me. It took him a while to figure out that he had to get alot closer to me for a night check-in than a day check-in. Human have such poor senses 

As he would get more and more tired he would stick closer and closer to me. After a while, he would trot 5-10 meters ahead of me.... He would peel off if he saw something interesting. After he checked it out he would go back on station.

It is pretty awesome to run behind him as he comes and goes.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

If your dog is barking in the classic, rhythmic explosive GSD bark, and getting its hackles up, I would think that is more of a defense drive than prey drive. 

My 1 year old female tends to be more defensive and prone to light up barking at night. She doesn't do it every time or at every thing, but she does it more often at night. She has seen coyotes in our urban-ish but wooded neighborhood on a couple of nights. There also are fewer people afoot, so her suspicion of those who are may be heightened. 

Plus one on carrying a good flashlight. I tend to switch between a really powerful (900 lumens rated) hand held, and a less powerful but still pretty bright headlamp. 

While I would agree that a GSD or most any dog is not going to stop a really determined and armed person intent on mayhem, I do believe they have a deterrent effect. Maybe even a significant deterrent effect on what I'd call opportunist criminals. Someone who is a criminal of opportunity would, I expect, prefer a soft target, not unlike four legged predators. Purely anecdotal, but a good many of the GSDs, Malinois or other dogs I've heard about suffering injury occurs when they are police dogs, in the line of duty, trying to apprehend someone armed and desperate to escape apprehension. Typical case seems to be armed suspect, hellbent on escaping or resisting arrest, maybe either in a car or hiding somewhere, dog gets sent in; dog gets shot. 
By contrast, I would expect the risk/reward scenario with a street criminal bent on strong-arm robbery, or some such thing, would tend to dissuade them from taking on someone with a large dog, barking in defense drive, maybe growling with hackles up and flashing some teeth. But yeah, also a good idea to have a backup plan, and preserve your perimeter. Not sure I'd shine the light in their eyes except as a truly last resort. The better flashlights really light up the night without shining in someone's eyes, and give you the opportunity to gauge their intentions. I guess if they pressed too close that might be an option.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

berno von der seeweise said:


> We throw the term “hunt” around quite a little bit here but let’s remember, any tendency to pursue wild game was traditionally discouraged since long before the breed was ever standardized. “Hunting” lost sheep and children, certainly, but I think in that sense terms like “search” and/or “track” might be more accurate?


No, I let my dogs hunt coyotes on the regular. That doesn't mean they catch them or hurt them or worse. It does mean we attempt to convince the little buggers that we're the top of the food chain and they're better served to do their own hunting elsewhere. And it works to a *great* degree.

I know a guy with two German Shepherd that are shop dogs by day at his automotive shop. Beautiful heavy dogs but not the cleanest or most manicured that you might find on this site for instance. He lives on a farm where they do hunt coyotes and so do the dogs to protect livestock. They don't often catch them but he has personally seen them roll 3 of them and break a neck in a flash, no fight required.

Sorry if that offends anyone but "hunt" is the correct term.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Coyote - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





No offense taken here at all  Seems to me an avg size gsd in good condition should dispatch a yote in short order. Don't know about the regs in Canada but on this side of the line it's open season year round, no bag limits, and almost no restrictions. Seems to me, if you taught a pair of gsd you want them to catch, you could really clean up. Too many coyotes and not enough hunters throws the ecosystem out of whack.


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

Thank you all very much for your comments. I agree I was probably seeing her suspicious and defensive-drive. I guess I wasn’t expecting it as I still think of her as a little puppy (she is 6.5 months). I guess it’s a sign I better do some homework into what to expect as she matures.



berno von der seeweise said:


> If you intend to rely on this dog to “protect” you, always remember that in reality, ultimately, heaven forbid, you would/will be required to protect it.


Part of the reason I got a shepherd was to be my running buddy after dark. But I am 100% satisfied with her being a visual deterrent. I take full responsibility for keeping us both safe and out of sticky situations. While it’s a large park at night close to student residence, I know what areas to avoid. Agree with quality flashlights. I already have a pretty powerful head torch.



berno von der seeweise said:


> like I kinda get this feel from the OP that without the food bag, you felt a bit vulnerable yourself?


I rely on the food bag as Biscuit has been going through are car snapping/lunging phase. I use her high vale rewards to sit-stay and watch traffic go by and focused heels along the stretch of road to the park. I guess having no food I was already feeling apprehensive. I do strive to remain calm and confident handling Biscuit, I do have to remind myself of this occasionally. The other day I wanted to bring B for a walk along the road for training. I was all ready to go, and said I’d wait for my hubby to get home cause ‘its easier’. I had to check myself and remind myself that I am 100% confident in handling Biscuit. Off I went for a very enjoyable walk and some 1 on 1 training time.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Squidwardp said:


> If your dog is barking in the classic, rhythmic explosive GSD bark, and getting its hackles up, I would think that is more of a defense drive than prey drive...


Maybe it is semantics but a rhythmic bark, meaning a consistent cadence, is more characteristic of active aggression of which defense drive is not a component. Hackles suggest defensive aggression. Regarding coyotes, wild animals of similar size and species, almost always have a leg up intensity wise compared to domesticated animals, which tend to be juvenile forms of their wild "cousins."


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## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

At night I always keep Saint on a leash mostly because of all the varmints out and about...not to mention the ever present coyotes. 

Also I have poor night vision and thankfully there are no street lights out in the country. On an overcast night it can get so dark it can make you dizzy. Saint can disappear from sight 20 feet away or less.

Now I'm not complaining about the dark, I absolutely love it, but I implement controls to lessen possible risks.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Biscuit said:


> I better do some homework into what to expect as she matures.


 I'm only a couple months ahead of you here and learning as I go. I expected a sporty prey driven dog, but that's not what I got. A dog can't be an effective anything unless he's right there with you when you need him, so my primary focuses turned to obedience and socialization right about where you are now. So far he's working out really well.

quite effective


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I thought your dog was mainly DDR, so why would you expect sporty and prey driven?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I assumed "working lines" meant "protection sports?" the other ddr breeds/lines I've known were prey monsters? not that I'm not complaining...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The early DDR dogs did not even participate in schH as they were military dogs and typically, DDR GSDs are not known for high prey drive, but more defensive aggression and dominance. Now that has changed as some modern dogs go back to DDR lines or are considered from DDR lines, but the breeding program that developed the DDR dogs has had no influence for years the term DDR is more a marketing tool than anything. You will still some dogs from so called DDR lines that throw strong bone and pigment and defensive aggression is their primary drive. To add, there has become a split in the so called working lines where many lines are really sport lines and some are better suited for police or military work. And then there is a blend of those two with some of the West German/Czech/Slovak breedings.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> You will still some dogs from so called DDR lines that throw strong bone and pigment [ ]


no doubt you know more about all that than I, @Chip Blasiole; so you tell me, does _near 9 month old _little igor look ddr to you? I assume he still has some filling out to do?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Not particularly, and as I said, the true early DDR dogs had a unique looks in terms of head and bone. He is a nice looking dog and looks rather leggy which was not typical of the early DDR dogs.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Look up Ingo von Rudingen on PDB. And he was born well after the beginning of the DDR program.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Thanks. I apologize for the poor quality photo. I caught it on the fly just now and mainly wanted to capture him in full sun.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Maybe it is semantics but a rhythmic bark, meaning a consistent cadence, is more characteristic of active aggression of which defense drive is not a component. Hackles suggest defensive aggression. Regarding coyotes, *wild animals of similar size and species, almost always have a leg up intensity wise compared to domesticated animals*, which tend to be juvenile forms of their wild "cousins."


Except of course, we're talking about GSD specifically, not domestic animals (even dogs) generically and even at that, clearly not all GSD have the same body composition/temperament towards wild animals including coyotes.

We had a long discussion on this in another thread but many people or totally unfamiliar with a dominant, aggressive "Alpha" if you would, large GSD. The kind that have the ability to scare you if they weren't your own. In my experience (significant) there are no solo coyotes that don't immediately turn and run, often well before you would normally realize they are present.

*For the most part, Coyotes are small to medium, curious, opportunistic, solo, timid, small game hunters.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

berno von der seeweise said:


> View attachment 563713


Off topic, fantastic looking dog


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

DDR deterrent


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think most modern working dogs are trained and working in prey. The social/defensive dogs were more popular in the past than they are now. A lot of police departments didn't use a lot of training for that type of dog. They would just rile them up and send them. The DDR dogs were very much this type. This is also in the same vein as the old school working doberman. These are the types of dogs that I refer to as dogs that don't need to be trained to bite. They are more than willing to bite a person simply for being a stranger. One of the things with that type of dog is they are a huge liability. Someone who didn't know what they were doing or wasn't experienced enough could very easily end up in a world of trouble. It could happen even if you did know what you were doing. That is one of the things that led to their decline. Those traits aren't nearly as strong today. That is one of the reasons I say most dogs today need to be trained to guard. You still find dogs with very high defense drive/aggression and lower thresholds, but the social aggression aspect is very rare these days.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think Aron vom Poppitz and Lord von den Grauen von Monstab are good modern examples of what I think of when you say DDR shepherd.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

WNGD said:


> Off topic, fantastic looking dog


thanks. Local yotes backed _way off_ the day he started lifting his leg...



Bearshandler said:


> One of the things with that type of dog is they are a huge liability.


precisely...

in my mind "ddr gsd" always conjured the classic image of condor v marderpfahl. It looks like maybe the larger heavier east euro type tends more toward round than oval bone?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There has become in increase in demand for police dogs that are more aggressive due to failed apprehensions with high prey dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Some prey monkeys take more maintenance training, particularly on static targets. Once a defensive dog gets a few street bites in, there's not a lot of convincing necessary. Then it's about teaching them what/who not to bite.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I've recently been told by a reliable source that in light of all these recent months of civil unrest and defund the police business, state and local agencies are already reshuffling/trending toward single purpose detection (narcos/accelerants/etc), with lesser secondary emphasis on dual purpose dogs. Basically this "perfect storm" rendered street dogs cost ineffective.

?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Static bites aren’t easy to begin with. Real world work, as long as your good about teaching that what/when not to bite, you can do pretty well with a defensive dog. You can get a similar issue with prey dogs being triggered though.


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## dogsUSA (Sep 13, 2020)

Speaking of prey monkeys.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=160584431941106


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That dog might be a prey monkey, but more so, he is a weak dog. I think problems with static bites with high prey dogs often go back to poor foundation training where the pup or dog is “begged” to bite by excessive prey movements by the decoy. There should be minimal prey action except for very young puppies.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Poor dog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think problems with static bites with high prey dogs often go back to poor foundation training


is it only an issue w/ prey driven dogs? I remember a conversation years ago about the inmates of some institution catching on about going passive. I think maybe it was in delaware?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

It is either training or an inadequate dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> That dog might be a prey monkey, but more so, he is a weak dog. I think problems with static bites with high prey dogs often go back to poor foundation training where the pup or dog is “begged” to bite by excessive prey movements by the decoy. There should be minimal prey action except for very young puppies.


I agree, and there is often very little foundation work done on imports. Mostly enough for testing and sale as a green dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dogsUSA said:


> Speaking of prey monkeys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's just a crapper.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

dogsUSA said:


> Speaking of prey monkeys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The simplest answer here is that dog wasn't ready for the pressure.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

That dog looks young, and the decoy was much more aggressive than I've seen before. Not surprised the owner was a bit miffed.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

that's how it's done, right there! when a bad guy resist your dog, take him down and put him in a chokehold!!

old time hockey


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It was a lot of pressure by the decoy, but if every dog that day was worked the same, it’s hard to complain about. Once he begins to chase the dog back to the owner, I think he is very much across the line.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

And when the dog is sent back, the helper stands very passively. Seemed to me a bit unfair. As a novice and complete outsider.

But I have watched my fare share of videos, and don't believe I've ever seen a helper act that way! Ever...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't see that as a lot of pressure. It was a few stick hits and then the decoy blocking the dog with the stick. And the initial presentation was totally a prey bite with the decoy running away.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It's a long send, so the dog is away from the handler. That's the only thing that should be challenging at all about this. That's not a lot of pressure, at least compared to what I'm used to.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would call this a lot of pressure


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A few years ago I showed some of Mike's videos with serious pressure on a Czech GSD forum and they were really bad mouthed with people saying any dog could be conditioned to that pressure, the dog was working in prey and if pushed into defense, " he would fold like a cheap tent," etc. I tried to explain how Mike's dogs were very high threshold for defense and pushing them into defense was not likely, but the more they were pushed, the more they would fight, but most of the forum members would have no part of it. The KNPV Mal X's he breeds and sells have a different drive package than GSDs, and he admitted that most of his dogs would not make good perimeter dogs because they were so social, but could be trained for that with the right training.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> A few years ago I showed some of Mike's videos with serious pressure on a Czech GSD forum and they were really bad mouthed with people saying any dog could be conditioned to that pressure, the dog was working in prey and if pushed into defense, " he would fold like a cheap tent," etc. I tried to explain how Mike's dogs were very high threshold for defense and pushing them into defense was not likely, but the more they were pushed, the more they would fight, but most of the forum members would have no part of it. The KNPV Mal X's he breeds and sells have a different drive package than GSDs, and he admitted that most of his dogs would not make good perimeter dogs because they were so social, but could be trained for that with the right training.


It would take crossing a high pain threshold, particularly when in drive, to get his dogs into defense. And who is to say that dog won't only get stronger when it's pissed?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I would call this a lot of pressure


Good Boy!
Why did the bad guy pet the dog before returning to the handler? I have never seen that before?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That is not uncommon in good suit work. A dog with the right genetics and training knows how to fight and some petting as a reinforcer does not confuse the dog or contribute to him thinking it is a game, especially when you see how the decoy reacted in the rest of the video. Petting for pushing on the grip in a suit is also common. Dogs like the one in the video are especially unconcerned with the petting as the handler has a video of his own dog biting him without equipment because they are so driven to bite.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)




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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Granted that dog came off the bite pretty early, but the pace of the stick hits here was higher than average, and delivered with more aggression than I normally see in french ring. Clatter sticks are also described as painless, so there is that too. With how fast that dog came off the bite, I would say it was more about the dog than the decoy however. 


David Winners said:


> I would call this a lot of pressure


This is good illustration of the difference in pressure that a dog working in personal protection, police work, etc. needs to be able to handle vs a sport dog. The slick floor, to change to carpet, to the jugs, to the level of fight the decoy brings, this pressure is at a much higher level than most dogs only trained for sport see. As for conditioning a dog to take that, maybe. You do build a dog up in the amount of pressure applied over time, so that he learns to work through and that he can overcome it by staying in the fight. You can condition a dog to some things ,like gun fire. I don't think your conditioning a dog that doesn't have the combination of drive and nerves to that. A dog with sky high prey drive working in drive is very hard to push into defense, especially without putting some serious hurt on the dog. If the prey drive and pain tolerance are so high that the dog doesn't get pushed into defense doing the job, then what he is like in defense is irrelevant. There is also the fact that David pointed out, you don't actually know how that dog would react in defense, he could bring that same tenacity.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

if a breeder starts very early on and you follow through, you can condition quite a bit. At this point I have to say I prefer a prey driven dog because either he wants to or he doesn't and "it's just business, not personal." Whereas the defense driven dog appears to take it all _very personally_.

perhaps my opinion on that will evolve over time but for today, here and now, prey gets my vote

edit: and seriously, in terms of the OP, I think the blooper video sends the right message. If a bad guy resists your dog, take him down and chokehold! or just shine him with a flashlight. or bear repellent. brass knuckles. whatever works for you.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

For a GSD, prey drive with inadequate defense drive or training only in prey regarding bite work is insufficient because GDSs do not have the level of drive as the Mals in the video and Mals in general, nor the nerve base to manage that level of prey drive, so there is no catalyst to fight if things get challenging. With good Mals, their intense prey drive has the catalyst of competitive aggression which is fight. The exception for some GSDs would be training in IGP where prey is all that is needed.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> The exception for some GSDs would be training in IGP where prey is all that is needed.


that's what I'm getting at. Historically sv used igp for breeding selection, so that's all pretty well fundamental. And granted, that's all gone to heck in a handbasket as well, so maybe not all the relevant anymore? certainly the trend in this country seems to be heading toward psa.

As far as the gsd defense and aggression stuff, it's really starting to look to me as though these are products of the breed's earlier herding/protecting origins. Like pre-kennel club conformation standardization. I'm beginning to suspect, can't help wondering if there aren't, perhaps correlations regarding defense/round bone, and prey/oval bone. That may sound a little goofy to those who don't understand what I'm talking about but in my experience:

there are no randoms, only variables


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Any correlations of physical traits to temperament are coincidental. When schutzhund had value as a breed selection test it was a totally different animal. When The GSD was no longer needed for herding and was promoted as a police and military dog, selection focused of traits that would would serve the breed well in those areas. When you hear hoof beats, think horses not Zebras.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Any correlations of physical traits to temperament are coincidental.


nope  (oh my gosh that was fun!_ I finally_ get to disagree w/ Chip!!)

there's 2 sides to that argument and both have merit, but in the simplest terms I can conjure on the fly here, black hided = beef while black and white = dairy. Bring a load of black and white steers to a cattle feeder and he's gonna pay you less because everybody knows feed conversion/dairy character is less. I won't pretend to have it all figured out as far as gsd but broadly speaking some physical traits are somewhat akin to like genetic markers.

if there were no correlation between phys and temp, there'd be no reason to overlook black and reds for police/protection



Chip Blasiole said:


> When schutzhund had value as a breed selection test it was a totally different animal. When The GSD was no longer needed for herding and was promoted as a police and military dog, selection focused of traits that would would serve the breed well in those areas. When you hear hoof beats, think horses not Zebras.


sure, but specifically in terms of the ddr/east euro programs and defense, did/does defense type/temp tend more toward round than oval bone? I suspect perhaps yes.

unfortunately I can't answer my own question because I only have little igor to survey (more round than oval imo). note; _many will refer to oval as "flat"_


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I will give you a quote from a 1998 letter to me from Dr. Malcolm Willis, who was an expert in animal breeding and genetics and wrote, "The German Shepherd Dog-A Genetic History." "I am puzzled by the reference to red/black as colour has little to do with character except by accident." If you select for color along with other traits, that is a different matter. I don't think anyone in the DDR program or other GSD breeding program gave a thought to round vs. oval bone.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

God I hate to semi agree with Berno but I recently saw a listing of several studies cited by Temple Grandin supporting behavioral traits linked to physical traits. 

I also have heard enough longterm breeders link physical characteristics, and even colors, to certain behavioral traits in some lines. 

Drs Scott and Fuller in their 20 year study of the genetics of behavior found that when crossing breeds, the behavior of the resulting litters where strongly contingent on what breed the individual puppy mostly resembled.

I know of another long-term GSD breeder that always says if you want to know expected temperament of a pup, look back in the pedigrees until you find the dog that most resembles the pup conformationally.

My female Mal most closely resembles her sire and acts like him where her brother most closely looks like the dam and he acts like her.

I found the same with the Czech import pups. The one that most closely resembles the sire exhibits the most similar behavioral traits. The female is the spitting image of the dam and yep, acts just like her. The other brother is conformed like the dam but with the head of the sire and his temperament does fall right in the middle.

Coincidence? Exceptions to the rule? I don't know but there is no shortage of breeders that hold back two or more puppies from a litter to see how they develop and they should have a goldmine of information on the topic.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

like I said above, I only have little igor to survey so this ain't at all about _ME_ being right. 










a deep dive into the database reveals _SOME_ but not necessarily all oval/flat boned types. _off the top of my head audifax v grafrath comes to mind but there are many others_

meanwhile *2018 genetic study* found strong genetic correlation between maremmano abruzzese
(round bone/defense) and the progenitor of gsd

this is not to suggest oval bones can't be defense driven or that round bones can't be prey driven, only that a round x oval mating may result in more variable offspring temp? or perhaps more importantly, a defense/round x defense/round mating may produce_ LESS _variation in temp (or oval/prey x oval/prey, whatever). This may all sound like fluff, but again:

there are no randoms, only variables


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don't think those are scientifically valid examples and are correlation not causation. Tjhere is one breeder who claims a reversed mask in GSDs results in higher aggression but I am sure there are plenty of whimpy GSDs with reversed masks and how do you operationally define a reversed mask? In crossing breeds, if a pups looked more like a certain breed they likely inherited more dominant genes from that breed. Judging conformation of an ancestor is subjective. When talking about inheritance from parents that is a different issue.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

berno von der seeweise said:


> like I said above, I only have little igor to survey so this ain't at all about _ME_ being right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correlation is not causation.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> When talking about inheritance from parents that is a different issue.


same difference

great great grand> great grand> grand> parent> offspring

may we safely assume higher prey is associated with malinois conformation?

I rest my case

respectfully


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> nope  (oh my gosh that was fun!_ I finally_ get to disagree w/ Chip!!)
> 
> there's 2 sides to that argument and both have merit, but in the simplest terms I can conjure on the fly here, black hided = beef while black and white = dairy. Bring a load of black and white steers to a cattle feeder and he's gonna pay you less because everybody knows feed conversion/dairy character is less. I won't pretend to have it all figured out as far as gsd but broadly speaking some physical traits are somewhat akin to like genetic markers.
> 
> ...


Berno, maybe if you weren't so busy mucking around with imprinting trying to force a square peg into a round hole and just sat back and watched your dog evolve and mature, maybe you could answer some of your own questions.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

in terms of linebreeding, outcrossing and backcrossing, experience has taught me all too bitterly bloody well _the time is short; _and imprinting is *Science*


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in terms of linebreeding, outcrossing and backcrossing, experience has taught me all too bitterly bloody well _the time is short; _and imprinting is *Science*


Imprinting only lasts until, and IF, the right stimulus presents and then you will see the genetics rise to the top. It's the most popular reason for when the poo hits the fan, dog owners are left scratching their heads and saying: well, he never did that before.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

*pg 3*: "Research shows that social bonding between dogs and small ruminants depends on imprinting the puppies when they are roughly four to sixteen weeks old. This developmental stage will “set” the dog’s adult behavior. In other words, imprinting changes the dog forever."

that may or may not apply to sport/street dogs, but those aren't my aims, so...



MineAreWorkingline said:


> owners are left scratching their heads and saying: well, he never did that before.


more like "he'll never do that again." It's literally a dog eat dog, pass fail world. I'd like to try to coax a live find SAR individual out of my program someday, but the reality is most will be lucky to land in a barn. 3 sided sheds being more common. That's just the way it is out here. Granted very few gsd have the makings anymore, but I believe some of little igor's progeny will.

















there is no more noble a job for a dog to do, imo #farmon


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Malinois structure has zero to do with higher prey drive. Explain Malinois with low prey drive. Do people with red hair have shorter fuses?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> *pg 3*: "Research shows that social bonding between dogs and small ruminants depends on imprinting the puppies when they are roughly four to sixteen weeks old. This developmental stage will “set” the dog’s adult behavior. In other words, imprinting changes the dog forever."
> 
> that may or may not apply to sport/street dogs, but those aren't my aims, so...
> 
> ...


Is that from Berno's imprinting book or do you have a source? 

Regardless, thresholds, how a predisposition manifests, to what degree, etc., can be manipulated with imprinting, socialization and exposure but you can NOT change genetics. 

What dogs learn and experience through environment and nurturing can determine whether a predisposition switches on or off, when it does, and to what degree but when a trait is genetic, it will appear across ALL environmental, socialization or learned experiences.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Your esoteric beliefs and theories are just ways you avoid actually learning how to train a dog.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Malinois structure has zero to do with higher prey drive. Explain Malinois with low prey drive. Do people with red hair have shorter fuses?


broadly speaking one may anticipate various temperaments by observing a dog's conformation, even from a distance (golden retriever, border collie, rottweiler, et al)

and yes, now that you mention it, redheads may have shorter fuses 



Chip Blasiole said:


> Your esoteric beliefs and theories are just ways you avoid actually learning how to train a dog.


from my perspective that kinda goes both ways. In other words it's just not realistic to expect the luxury of much if any training will be afforded to resulting offspring I place; but I assume we can all agree genetic obedience is the crown jewel.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I anticipate you have a very small head.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

No offense taken, Dr. Blasiole. We're just looking at this from totally opposite ends of the spectrum. I whole heartedly agree that just because a gsd is sable doesn't necessarily qualify him as an igp candidate, but that doesn't render the debate "open and shut." It may be a little more complex than that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> broadly speaking one may anticipate various temperaments by observing a dog's conformation, even from a distance (golden retriever, border collie, rottweiler, et al)
> 
> and yes, now that you mention it, redheads may have shorter fuses
> 
> ...


Form follow function. 

Agree to disagree. Genetic obedience is not on my short list.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> if a breeder starts very early on and you follow through, you can condition quite a bit. At this point I have to say I prefer a prey driven dog because either he wants to or he doesn't and "it's just business, not personal." Whereas the defense driven dog appears to take it all _very personally_.
> 
> perhaps my opinion on that will evolve over time but for today, here and now, prey gets my vote





berno von der seeweise said:


> Historically sv used igp for breeding selection, so that's all pretty well fundamental.


I want to reiterate the above because I stand by it. If I'm looking for a dog to train, I'm looking for prey because in my experience it trains easier and faster.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

“Nice boy, but he’s as sharp as a throw pillow.”


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

good 'ole *jimmy moses*!

*Don’t you find that a very masculine dog is more likely to produce well?* “Yes, the thing is, he’s a 25 ¾ inches dog. He looks medium-to-small in a big special’s ring. The standard says ideal is 25 inches; he’s ¾ inches over it. And yet for any of the other dogs to get a headpiece like this they have to be 28 ½ to 29 inches. This is a medium sized breed or they can’t do everything they’re supposed to do - they have to climb walls, they have to do all kinds of jumping, and you know yourself, *big clumsy dogs can’t do that. Not with big round bone. This is an oval-boned breed.*

"*forequarters*: [ ] The forelegs, viewed from all sides, are straight and the bone oval rather than round."

if indeed the big all over workin' type forelegs are considerably_ less ovaloid_ than those awarded at westminster, is it because working gsd breeders deliberately select round bone for the sake of round bone, or size for the sake of size? Or is it perhaps rather just "part of the package?" a product/byproduct of overall temperament/type?

just a point of particular curiosity for me because little igor's forelegs seem notably more round than the lance of fran jo type I remember of yore...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

A guy who runs circles around a ring with a dog. He knows nothing about working ability/traits or training working dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

is jimmy still around? I think we'd be remiss to question his expertise is the field of usa conformation.








even from here and obscured by vegetation, the difference in foreleg is readily apparent

come to think of it now, I remember just recently reading some source or citation somewhere or other that, paraphrasing, "thuringians were much larger and had semi erect ears." For the life of me I can't remember where that came from at the moment, but after the war thuringia lay within ddr borders.

I'm not questioning your gsd prowess, Chip. Quite the opposite in fact. You know I highly value your input. So I'll ask you, in your opinion, when the wall came down/at the time of german reunification, what were the biggest differences between west german and east german type, and what/how may we speculate brought those differences about?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> God I hate to semi agree with Berno but I recently saw a listing of several studies cited by Temple Grandin supporting behavioral traits linked to physical traits.
> 
> I also have heard enough longterm breeders link physical characteristics, and even colors, to certain behavioral traits in some lines.
> 
> ...


 don't you have a highline as well? if so, how do highline forelegs compare to that of your z ps? I'll bet the czechs aren't as ovaloid (_somebody learned a new favorite word today_


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Talking to yoursel


berno von der seeweise said:


> don't you have a highline as well? if so, how do highline forelegs compare to that of your z ps? I'll bet the czechs aren't as ovaloid (_somebody learned a new favorite word today_


It never occurred to me to check. Do you want me to check the West German, Mals and Heeler too?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

berno,
The Thuringian dogs were popular with the dog fancy folks, had erect ears, wolf grey color, were wiry, rugged, small and stocky and were vigorous workers. They often fell into the hands of poor breeders resulting in poor breeding outcomes.The Nazis had an influence on the GSD and v. Stephanitz had racist/antisemitic and sexist views such as Germans were dog lovers and Jews hated dogs based on references in the old testament that viewed dogs as lowly creatures such as the mention of a dog eating his own vomit. He wrote about GSDs being more obedient to the master of the house. The Nazis made the GSD the icon of the Third Reich and focused on the wolf character of the breed which was symbolic and inaccurate. Hitler named his first GSD Wolf. The Nazis used GSDs to control POWs and concentration camps. Regarding the DDR dogs, they were selected for heavy bone, massive heads, dark pigment, deep chests, and straight, square structure. They used the Wertmessziffer rating system to rate structure and temperament which led to a consistent type and temperament. That is why I believe today's so called DDR dogs are so in name only because this system is not used to evaluate for breeding. The best dogs were tough, hardy and intimidating with defensive aggression being primary over prey drive. As you know, bloodlines were given numbers such as ZL:XIII-A (13-A.) But they also bred to some of the best West German working dogs such as the Lierberg dogs. The early DDR dogs were unique, but not as special as what is written about them says, in my opinion.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

good stuff, Chip! thanks. 50 years of population isolation is enough to generate significant divergence, let alone differences in selection criteria, etc. Czech and slovak programs diverged even further. Fascinating study!











on paper little igor is 7/8 east german, 2/16 czech (_maternal gggrandams z ps_). So it just goes to show how genetics are a total crapshoot. To me he just looks like a mishmash of lines/types. A time or 2, in just the right pose, in just the right light, he looks a little like ddr 90095, but no real relationship...
He's pretty thin. I've deliberately raised him on poor rations under harsh conditions in order to test his mettle. Now that the leaves are beginning to turn here it's time to bulk him up for the cold. I don't see many gsd online in full winter coat so that'll be interesting. I'm hoping he'll really "pop" against the snow in fotos this winter.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Maybe it is the photo but his front and rear legs look extreme in length. What is his wither height?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

appx 23" @ 9 months, so we'll see? I agree he's awfully leggy. Huge ears, too? I mean like, "come fly with me!" (_down in llama land there's a one man band, he'll toot his flute for yooou!!_) give it to me straight now, Chip. No chaser. You ain't gonna hurt my feelings. What's he look like to you?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The main physical traits I notice are lack of angulation, legginess, and his head could be more masculine. Other than that he is a nice looking dog. I am always much more concerned with working temperament and health.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

agree w/ all of the above, thanks. We'll put a little weight on him here and get him in a stack for further eval.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

I had an interesting experience the other night with my pup and a skunk. As usual, pup went charging over to investigate the cat-like critter. Rather than taking off, the skunk just remained where he was. He looked like he thought he owned the place.

Pup slowed down and started sniffing. The skunk turned around and sprayed pup straight in the face. Pup let out a pathic whimper... followed by a quick snap. Every other dog I have had, left skunks alone after getting sprayed. Ole went through a rapid process of surprise by it, pissed at it, and killed it.

Luckily the dew was already really thick so a couple of hours of rolling around in the wet grass got rid of 90% of the smell. His eyes were red and puffy for a couple of days.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

davewis said:


> I had an interesting experience the other night with my pup and a skunk. As usual, pup went charging over to investigate the cat-like critter. Rather than taking off, the skunk just remained where he was. He looked like he thought he owned the place.
> 
> Pup slowed down and started sniffing. The skunk turned around and sprayed pup straight in the face. Pup let out a pathic whimper... followed by a quick snap. Every other dog I have had, left skunks alone after getting sprayed. Ole went through a rapid process of surprise by it, pissed at it, and killed it.
> 
> Luckily the dew was already really thick so a couple of hours of rolling around in the wet grass got rid of 90% of the smell. His eyes were red and puffy for a couple of days.


That’s pretty funny. It’s not uncommon however. Domestic dogs are the number one killer of skunks.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> It’s not uncommon however. Domestic dogs are the number one killer of skunks.


That is interesting. All of my other dogs have been labs. They always gave skunks a pretty wide berth after their first encounter.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

davewis said:


> That is interesting. All of my other dogs have been labs. They always gave skunks a pretty wide berth after their first encounter.


Labs are smart 

Like uncle Stonnie says, "All dogs want to be labs, and all labs want to be black."


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Some dogs are completely unfazed apparently, or good at killing without getting hit.


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