# Front Angulation



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Always known to be one of the most difficult things to achieve in the GSD. Here is the standard:
*Chest*
The chest should be of moderate width, the underchest long and pronounced. Chest depth should be approximately 45 to 48% of height at the withers. The ribs should be moderately sprung. Barrel shaped or flat ribs are faulty.


*Forelegs*
Seen from all sides, the forelegs are straight and absolutely parallel when viewed from the front. 
Shoulder and upper arms are of equal length. Both are held snugly to the body by strong muscles. Angulation of shoulder blade to the upper arm ideally is 90 degrees, but up to 110 degrees is permissible. 
Elbows may not turn out when the dog is standing or in motion or be pinched inward. The lower legs viewed from all sides are straight and absolutely parallel, dry, and well muscled. The pastern measures about 1/3 of the forearm length and is angled 20-22 degrees to the foreleg. Pasterns with an angle of more than 22 degrees or very steep pasterns (less than 20 degrees) reduce working capability especially, endurance.









This is a dog born sometime around 1976. I am posting his picture because he was recommended to improve front angulation. There are others I am sure but I don't have time to look through my winsis to find them. This is also an area where working lines are critisized more often. Are the dogs correct in front nowadays or has that evolved as well?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

*V Miro vom Wällerhorst*

HD: A-NORMAL / ED: NORMAL; SCHH3 V Kkl 1

Working line dog. I suspect that his front is not exactly correct....but I like him anyway.












*VA1 (2008 & 2009) Vegas du Haut Mansard*

*SCHH3* *Kkl 1*


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Note also: Level topline both stacked and gaiting. Feet close to the ground.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Working lines. Beautiful front.


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

Vandal said:


> *V Miro vom Wällerhorst*
> 
> HD: A-NORMAL / ED: NORMAL; SCHH3 V Kkl 1
> 
> ...


 Hey! Vegas is my puppy's grandfather.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think he's a lot of puppies' grandfather?
Progeny (559)

Anne - what is it called when they have big, meaty "breast" like chests? That kind of hang? Is there a name for that or do I just see a lot of funky looking dogs! 

I like this:
*V Miro vom Wällerhorst*
*And the one Daphne posted:*









What about gender differences? Any?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Jean- are you talking about a dewlap in the chest area?

I have often been told that front conformation is difficult to maintain and relatively easy to loose when breeding. 

Dogs bred for success in the show ring often have far reaching front angulation resulting in the front paw reaching out as far as the nose or beyond when the trot is fast. 

This page shows several dogs in extension:

http://www.victorygermanshepherds.com/New%20Victory%20In%20Motion.htm

I personally haven't seen this degree of extension in the front in dogs not bred pretty much for showing.

This girl does seem to have a shoulder that opens pretty big though...










Would good shoulder angulation allow for better shock absorption when landing from a jump?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Not the turkey wattle type thing, chest flubber that wobbles...more like a big turkey breast look. Maybe you should just ingore me! I don't want to post any pics I have of dogs with that, because I feel bad that I am saying I don't like it - I guess a very deep chest...I am shutting up now.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

No, Jean... surely it is no question too funny.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Andaka said:


> Working lines. Beautiful front.


 Gorgeous. I don't know much about conformation, but I like the look of his stance.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Sounds like plain old fat to me. I see lots of dogs with "turkey chests" and backs that look like coffee tables due to fat. 

Because I board dogs, at least three times a week I am having the " that part of your dog is supposed to be concave, not convex" discussion while pointing to the dog's flank area. With the REALLY fat dogs I will point out the two to three inches of fat surrounding the chest.

It is amazing how overweight many dogs are. Vets rarely say a word to the owners about it.

Do you have a picture of what you mean Jean?


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Vandal said:


> Sounds like plain old fat to me. I see lots of dogs with "turkey chests" and backs that look like coffee tables due to fat.
> 
> Because I board dogs, at least three times a week I am having the " that part of your dog is supposed to be concave, not convex" discussion while pointing to the dog's flank area. With the REALLY fat dogs I will point out the two to three inches of fat surrounding the chest.
> 
> ...


 I think he's talking about the muscular chest, not fat. One where you can see very defined muscles. Like the dog below, only on a shepherd (sorry couldn't find any shepherds with it). Not sure, but I think that's what Jean meant.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, I just re-read the description Jean gave. I was reading it wrong, I thought she? was saying it was "chest flubber that wobbles" but that was the description of what it wasn't. Fatique is setting in and my reading skills are shot.

Probably is what you are showing there with the pit bull.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yeah, a really covex bowing out of the chest - almost like on a Quarter horse, but instead of flat-ish and big, rounded and big. Actually the dog in the drawing has a bit of it. 

Good heavens...that's not a look (the terrier type dog) I enjoy overall! 

(she)


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/hdogs/HaroldHausTigges.jpg


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I went back to look at a picture of Lance of Fran Jo because I was thinking he had a chest like what you were trying to describe. I looked at his pedigree and his paternal grandmother, Frigga, ( shown above at the top), caught my eye.

Convex enough for you Jean?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, a prominent prosternum maybe? I have heard positive remarks regarding a somewhat prominent prosternum. This may be because good front angulation makes the prosternum more visible.

Jock has what I am talking about...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Finnigan always seemed to look a little too large in the chest area. Could be the head adding to the look but the chest looks too deep.

_AKC Standard_
_Chest:_ Commencing at the posternum, it is well filled and carried well down between the legs. It is deep and capacious, never shallow, with ample room for lungs and heart, carried well forward, with the posternum showing ahead of the shoulder in profile. 

WUSV 
*Chest
*The chest should be of moderate width, the underchest long and pronounced. Chest depth should be approximately 45 to 48% of height at the withers. The ribs should be moderately sprung. Barrel shaped or flat ribs are faulty.
_

_


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Justin has a good amount of chest, but is not a dog I ever considered overdone in that area









There is one dog I can immediately think oft hat IS overdone through the chest.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, the pictures previous to Justin - thank you! When you couple that front with a narrow hind end it seems like the dog is just going to tip forward.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I consider this overdone:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

YES, but part of the reason it looks overdone is the dog has an extremely upright upper arm.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anne, was that a pic of Harald v h Tigges that you posted???


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Yes.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Wasn't he owned by Erich Renner,(if I remember correctly), was Ch and Sch 3, FH, and was sire of guide dogs for the blind??? Nah that couldn't be!!! Nice looking dog 1


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I don't know about Harald, but Bodo v Lierberg was owned by Erich and used to sire guide dogs. I believe the fact that he was in California was one of the reasons he wasn't used more as a sire.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Speaking of old dogs... I am trying to remember the name of German Shepherd from the later 40's ( I think). The story was something like he was shown 10 times and took 10 Best of Breeds. Took Groups also. He as so successful it prompted an AKC investigation. Anyone know??


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Ok, I found him....










VA, CH. ROM (US) Quell vom Fredeholz SchH3 Kkl 1

The comment about him says he was shown 20 times. Took the Group 20 times and then BIS 10 times. There was an AKC investigation. 

I guess that all came out okay and he was an accomplished dog. That illusive excellent front... perhaps he could have used a little more? It wouldn't matter to me so much as long as he was balanced in movement though.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I don't know about Harald, but Bodo v Lierberg was owned by Erich and used to sire guide dogs.


 
I remembered he owned Bodo but I did not know he owned Harold so I looked it up.... Cliff is right.

*Ch. Harold v. Haus Tigges SchH III*​ 
Breeder: Kurk Tigges
Owner: Erich Renner
DOB: September 23rd, 1955​


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## Whitedog404 (Mar 25, 2010)

Jean: I think he's a lot of puppies' grandfather?
Progeny (559)

*Yeah, makes those family reunions pretty wild.* 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/gsd/progeny/441845.html


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