# Acceptable Levels of Aggression



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

As a spinoff of another thread, what do you personally find acceptable levels of aggression in a dog? I'll say give 2 answers...one for "pet" homes and one for people with working dogs.

A. Unapprocable by strangers, is very sharp, and is known to bite unprovoked. But dog is in sport home that is carefully managed, including having be vetted at home.

B. In a working home with an experienced handler. Dog is very strong and is managed easily by current handler, but would probably take over to potentially negative consequences with a "weaker" handler. 

C. Does not matter who handles the dog and how the dog acts doing protection work...dog should be aloof, friendly with who they know, but not put in any uncomfortable situations.

D. Do should have minimal overall aggression--could get by in SchH in prey, and is a social butterfly with any and all individuals.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'll go first. For ME personally .... in my home .... I'll accept something between a B and a C. Medo is a very strong dog for your average handler and I do think that he could probably get himself into a situation with someone that is more of a pushover or doesn't know how to control him where he would maybe get himself in a bad situation. However, I accept nothing less than a very social dog. He could actually stand to be a little more aloof, but he's still a puppy. He does bark and will be suspicious, but is immediately accepting and loving on them when I say so (or when he's at dog training and just think EVERYONE there is like the SUPER COOLEST people on earth--even new people he hasn't met before lol. Even though I know he might have a little edge to him, no dog in our house will be anything other than socially bombproof.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

For a dog like a German Shepherd I would say somewhere around C. I expect a dog that will not show any aggression to a friendly stranger. I don't want them to be best friends with everyone they meet; I want them to be civil. I expect in a situation where there is a person that is a genuine danger that the dog react with aggression, but if the handler says enough then the dog complies (a training issue probably more so than a temperament issue.) 

Sasha is mostly this dog. I am not 100% sure that she would not bite inappropriately, but she would really really have to be pushed and it would surprise me. I have seen her act with confident, appropriate aggression when it was necessary. She is not bomb proof over all (has a huge fear of fireworks and by extension I would assume gunfire), but I would say I am 99% confident that she is socially bomb proof. She has, mostly in the past, acted inappropriately in the past (due to her resource guarding me) but even then she was under voice control. When I say enough she knows I mean it and she comes at sits by my side and my guest can move freely. If this were not the case she would not be allowed to be free amongst guests, and that's not something I ever want from a dog. I want my dog to be able to be a part of everything in my life.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Stupid question IMO. No level of aggression is acceptable unless handler or family are under threat, or aggression is 100% controllable.
I would expect a gsd to put their life on the line to protect me and my family, whatever it took.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Stupid question IMO. No level of aggression is acceptable unless handler or family are under threat, or aggression is 100% controllable.


Wow, aren't you Mr./Ms. Friendly? 

What is threat? An actual assault? A shady character looking at you funny? Someone following you? The UPS guy at the door? If Grandpa picks up Little Sarah and tickles her until she squeals, is that threat? If Little Bobby and Little Joey are wrestling in the yard and one starts crying, is that a threat? If I accidentally leave my door unlocked and my neighbor walks in and startles me, should the dog bark or growl or bite or wag his tail because the neighbor is his buddy? If an unknown person comes into your backyard, should the dog bite? What if it's a 10-year old getting his ball? 16-year old? 18? If my husband screams at me but doesn't touch me, should the dog react? 

Lots and lots of grey areas when it comes to how much aggression is acceptable to an individual. This isn't a stupid question at all.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd never own an "A" and I'd never adopt out an "A". 

B, maybe, depends. I prefer C until the dog comes into it's own and shows a shepherd temperament, as per the breed standard of "aloof" with strangers.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Categorizing a gsd as A,B,C,D above is a stupid question. You want a dog that can be some or all of the above., depending on the situation. The question is stupid in the context of pick one. That's all, nothing more nothing less.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Categorizing a gsd as A,B,C,D above is a stupid question. You want a dog that can be some or all of the above., depending on the situation. The question is stupid in the context of pick one. That's all, nothing more nothing less.


Well... the fact is that aggression comes with the breed. It's bred for to certain degrees for the GSD to do certain jobs that people need them to do if it's real life work or something like schutzhund. Believe it or not, people want some level of aggression in their dogs. Some more than others and that's kind of the point of this thread. Not all aggression is out of control barking at strangers for no reason.



pfitzpa1 said:


> I would expect a gsd to put their life on the line to protect me and my family, whatever it took.


Like in the movies?


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Well... the fact is that aggression comes with the breed. It's bred for to certain degrees for the GSD to do certain jobs that people need them to do if it's real life work or something like schutzhund. Believe it or not, people want some level of aggression in their dogs. Some more than others and that's kind of the point of this thread. Not all aggression is out of control barking at strangers for no reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Like in the movies?


I'm glad you agree with me.  I'm not arguing the presence/desire for agression, just the ABCD pick one, in the OP's question.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't see the op mention you had to pick one. I figured you could use any combo you wanted and expand as much as possible. That's how i took the question.

For me... I definitely wouldn't want an A dog ever. Not my kind of dog at all. As a pet owner, I'm more of a D type person, but I have no need for any extra aggression. I like the prey drive and it's how i like to train. Maybe mix in a little C with who the dog is friendly with... aloof with strangers and friendly with family or "pack". Always want the dog to be comfortable in new situations. That's my preference.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

E. None of the above.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard

Quote>
The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.
<End Quote

Says it all IMO


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

pfitzpa1 said:


> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
> 
> Quote>
> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.
> ...


True but that's a pretty generic explanation. Must have courage and fighting drive, but how much? Shouldn't a watch dog or protection dog have some kind of aggression and exactly how much? Should that aggression needed for protection translate over to normal life? Is that even possible?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

pfitzpa1 said:


> United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard
> 
> Quote>
> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, *fighting drive*, and hardness in order to serve as companion, *watchdog, protection dog,* service dog, and herding dog.
> ...


I'm extremely curious how you plan on having a watchdog and protection dog with fight drive without aggression? Very talented animal.

And I think the only thing that is stupid are people who think the thread is stupid spending so much time commenting in it. 

Considering I used a combo of my own answers myself, no reason to pick ABCorD specifically.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> but not put in any uncomfortable situations.


I'll say I added this to C more for the owners than really to describe the dog...while I think that a dog should never bite in a social setting, people tend to have few qualms about putting their dog in just plain stupid situations.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Categorizing a gsd as A,B,C,D above is a stupid question. You want a dog that can be some or all of the above., depending on the situation. The question is stupid in the context of pick one. That's all, nothing more nothing less.


You want a dog that will bite unprovoked? I'm curious how you think all 4 general categories would ever fall under the same dog?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> He does bark and will be suspicious, but is immediately accepting and loving on them when I say so


I realized the way I made this sound. He's not suspicious and barking when we're out in public/on walks/etc, but I'm talkinga bout when someone is walking in front of our house/coming to the door he'll bark until I tell him all is good.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm extremely curious how you plan on having a watchdog and protection dog with fight drive without aggression? Very talented animal.
> 
> And I think the only thing that is stupid are people who think the thread is stupid spending so much time commenting in it.
> 
> Considering I used a combo of my own answers myself, no reason to pick ABCorD specifically.


I didn't say the thread was stupid, I said the question was stupid. Maybe some people will learn something from reading the thread  In any case, yes of course you can have a dog with high fight drive that does not have aggression. 

Here's what I consider to be a good definition of aggression.
(From Wikipedia)
"In psychology, as well as other social and behavioral sciences, aggression refers to behavior between members of the same species that is intended to cause humiliation, pain, or harm. Predatory or defensive behavior between members of different species is not normally considered "aggression."


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Here's what I consider to be a good definition of aggression.
> (From Wikipedia)
> "In psychology, as well as other social and behavioral sciences, aggression refers to behavior between members of the same species that is intended to cause humiliation, pain, or harm. Predatory or defensive behavior between members of different species is not normally considered "aggression."


 This is a poor definition of "aggression" in this context.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

A is never acceptable in a GSD. What use it it having a dog that you can't have anywhere in public with the over aggression?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Interesting definition. There would only be dog to dog aggression?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm good with a B or C - although for the B types its the Breeder's responsibility to do their best to home the puppies correctly (example if the parents are both around B the breeder should obviously be careful where they place their puppies).

I would take a B or C myself. Obviously A is not a well bred or well socialized dog and D is not really a german shepherd. I'm not asking for a man-eater here (because I know I might get flamed for this) but I don't want a social butterfly either - if I did I probably wouldn't get a GSD. 

B's for working homes, C's for pet homes and A's should be carefully managed and D's pose no risk and you can still love them to death and have them return that love - just don't breed them lol


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> This is a poor definition of "aggression" in this context.


Agreed. Not interesting. Just bad.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Stupid question IMO. No level of aggression is acceptable unless handler or family are under threat, or aggression is 100% controllable.
> I would expect a gsd to put their life on the line to protect me and my family, whatever it took.


So aggression across species line is only "aggression" per your definition if your family is being protected?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

codmaster said:


> A is never acceptable in a GSD. What use it it having a dog that you can't have anywhere in public with the over aggression?


"A" probably isn't meant for a dog that's ever put in social situations. This sounds more like a watchdog type dog. A recent thread comes to mind.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> As a spinoff of another thread, what do you personally find acceptable levels of aggression in a dog? I'll say give 2 answers...one for "pet" homes and one for people with working dogs.
> 
> A. Unapprocable by strangers, is very sharp, and is known to bite unprovoked. But dog is in sport home that is carefully managed, including having be vetted at home.


While A is unacceptable to me for breeding purposes and pet owning purposes. I would own a dog like that as long as I felt I could safely manage them, however, the dog would never be bred and would never be given a chance to act out. Plus the dog would never be rehomed. So while I find it unacceptable, in the right hands the dog could be managed. 



> B. In a working home with an experienced handler. Dog is very strong and is managed easily by current handler, but would probably take over to potentially negative consequences with a "weaker" handler.


I find B completely appropiate and would own/have one that is like this. He is very friendly though but given the chance, he will take advantage of someone. I trust him 110% with anyone though, a strong dog doesn't mean an aggressive dog. 



> C. Does not matter who handles the dog and how the dog acts doing protection work...dog should be aloof, friendly with who they know, but not put in any uncomfortable situations.


I find this definition to be appropiate for pet owners and anyone else. This is IMHO closest to the breed standard. 



> D. Do should have minimal overall aggression--could get by in SchH in prey, and is a social butterfly with any and all individuals.


My male is a social butterfly but is protective and has proven that he would protect me in a threatening situation. I think that it is not "proper" GSD temperament as they are supposed to be somewhat aloof. 

It depends on the individual dog and the way their individual temperament is IMHO. I think that the GSD is supposed to have a certain level of natural aggression. 

Too many people hear the word aggression and FREAK out that it means you have a killer dog who eats small children and mauls grandmas. Aggression is part of a dog, good, bad and sometimes ugly.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I think I have a B dog, and I am not an experienced handler. But we are making it work, and I am learning a lot. I think Niko would have done better in a more experienced home. In the future I would love a D dog, but I agree that a D dog is not a good representation of what the GSD is supposed to be. And I don't know how common C dogs are, but if anyone knows where I can find one, send me a PM!!


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