# Input on this Pedigree, please?



## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

I've lightly researched over the last 5 years and got serious about purchasing a Working Line GSD about 18 mths ago. Loads of training and selection research in the last year. Now this is very time sensitive as I have been debating for too long on this litter and need to choose or choose not to choose.

This will be my first Working Line GSD and I know that I will have to gain the experience to be able to be where I currently dream of, . But I still would like a solid pup to start with. German lines, DDR, possibly Czech, I'm open as long as I get a great dog to start.

Can anyone help me on this pedigree and offer your thoughts and opinions? Also open to breeder suggestions. This litter suffered from Parvo, a male was lost, but the next potential male pick (all black and listed as m1) was less effected and is closer to normal if not normal weight.

Litter: Dartagnan and Kafi Litter 3

Sire: New Page 0

Dam: New Page 0

Thank you for your help!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

This would not be considered a traditional "working line" pedigree IMHO. The sire's pedigree is kind of a mish mosh of lines, some show lines, some North American and a couple of working line dogs. I see no working titles until the 3rd generation and that is on a West German Showline dog.
The dams lines are pretty much a mix as well, I see a bit of everything in there, a bit more working and Czech but still not what one would consider cohesive. 
Where are you located? Are you planning on pursuing Schutzhund for sport purposes or are you looking for a personal protection dog? There are quite a few great breeders that I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure others can as well, we just need to know a bit more about you, where you are, your prior experience and what you hope to do.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is no way to project uniform traits from this breeding. I like the breeding of the dam much more than the sire in terms of understanding this breeding. Could be some very good dogs come from this breeding, but also high probability of a lot of unforeseen traits popping up.:thinking::thinking:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is not the working line that you think or hope it to be, not by pedigree and in my opinion not by breeder's aim or intent .

investigate -- ask the questions , you want working ask them why and what makes these dogs working candidates .
They should have some answers because 
This is a repeat litter.​
view their 2011 litter together​
view their 2007 litter together ​
and then there is the current 2012 litter and if you look on their web site there is a possibilty that this same combination will be done in 2013 IF

because "
we are going to take a break in 2013,
we'd like to finish/start a few other projects, and after 15 years, need to take a breather!
so we will only do 2 or 3 of the litters listed below"

some kennels would call that ramping up , not taking a breather . 
I see no evidence of dogs going to work or sport . 

with the raison d'etre - the reason for being stated as - "*We have dedicated much time, effort, and passion to this enterprise,
for the pleasure of it, and to be able to offer impressive dogs at affordable prices*

 formulate your own ideas ​


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I, personally, would keep looking. I think you can find something more to your liking with more predictable results elsewhere.


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

*.. more about me*



bocron said:


> Where are you located? Are you planning on pursuing Schutzhund for sport purposes or are you looking for a personal protection dog? ... we just need to know a bit more about you, where you are, your prior experience and what you hope to do.


I am located in the Dakotas and travel back and forth from there and Colorado. My experience is only in obedience training with dogs I've had all my life, no competitive/sport experience. This pup is my entrance into that world. He and I will definitely be learning together, but I have definitely equipped myself properly with in depth research in current training methods. I'd never begin without sound knowledge.

I've relaxed my high expectations a bit and would be happy with a sound dog with the capabilities to train with me to new levels I've not reached yet. Down the line I will most definitely be looking for much higher levels. I'm just staying realistic with my own abilities.


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

carmspack said:


> this is not the working line that you think or hope it to be, not by pedigree and in my opinion not by breeder's aim or intent .
> 
> investigate -- ask the questions..


I definitely understand that this is not a $2000/pup litter coming from a distinguished Police K9/training outfit. I was more drawn to the litter because of the Dam, Kafi, and her imported Sire/pedigree. I have been very honest about my desires/expectations/wants with the breeder from the beginning and it does seem to match what you say about the breeder's aim or intent. Their mindset does not entirely match my high level of working dog ideas, but they do believe this match can and has produced high quality dogs with working capabilities. I'm knowledgeable enough to recognize that I won't be purchasing a professional level working line pup from this breeder.

On the other hand my research has led me to the other breeder I listed, Haus Gill. Those pups are quite impressive to me and look like much more fitting dogs for competition and high levels of protection.

My thinking is in the investment and my own abilities. I am committed to this and have taken the steps to prepare, but am left with a feeling of "this is my first attempt and I need to be reasonable with my potential". I want a solid dog that can reach much higher levels than the everyday pooch sitting in the back yard.

I have a deposit on the 2012 litter and have previously asked about future litters from this match. The breeder has stated they are reluctantly considering a 2013 attempt and if they do it is most definitely the last. This (2012) is Kafi's last or next-to-last litter. 

Do you at all believe that this pedigree can produce a pup in line to learn with me at my low level of experience (training knowledge not yet qualifying as experience)? Maybe, possibly, being able to reach lower levels of protection?

I am to evaluate the litter tomorrow. The price, proximity, and my timeline has allowed me to lower my expectations from wanting to jump right into the deep end of the working line pool. Haus Gill looks to run my budget into the mid $2k's and this litter I'm into now is a little less than half that.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

intriGSD said:


> I definitely understand that this is not a $2000/pup litter coming from a distinguished Police K9/training outfit.
> 
> ... Do you at all believe that this pedigree can produce a pup in line to learn with me at my low level of experience (training knowledge not yet qualifying as experience)? Maybe, possibly, being able to reach lower levels of protection?


Not a pedigree expert here, but if you are serious about the work, there is really no such thing as "lower levels" of protection. Either the dog will protect you or it won't. If all you want is a barking dog to deter people, then yes, you could probably pick up any dog from a shelter to do that. But if you want to have any success in the work, you want a pup from a pedigree with PROVEN working ability, and you'll need to select your pup wisely. 



> Haus Gill looks to run my budget into the mid $2k's and this litter I'm into now is a little less than half that.


IMO, it's a mistake to make price an issue. Pick a breeder whose program is proven, and ask them if they think one of their pups would meet your needs. If so, then price should be no object (within reason). This is an animal you will spend 10-15 years with, and as long as you're spending money, you might as well get what you want... if you spend $500 and the dog turns out to be a failure in everything you want to do with it, you won't be happy and neither will the dog. If you spend $2500 and the dog turns out to be everything you had hoped, will you miss the extra money you spent?

I know it's a lot of money, believe me--if I want a dog, I have to scrimp and save for it. But it costs just as much to feed and care for a $2500 pup as it does for a $500 pup. You want the RIGHT pup. Not saying you won't find a good one for less money, just saying that more hinges on the breeder, their dogs, and their goals than it does on how much money you spend.

Of course, there is always the chance that you will spend a lot of money and the pup doesn't turn out to be a good fit. But if you've selected your breeder carefully, they should give you help and support, and in the end, will be willing to take the dog back and place it in a more appropriate home. 

As a beginner, you want to tip the odds for success in your favor as much as possible. You and the dog will be learning together, but if the dog has what it takes, the learning will be fun and rewarding. If the pup is not into what you want to do, you will still learn a lot, but the learning may encompass more frustration and heartache than fun.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I think you could get a more qualified working line pup for around 1500. I'd skip that breeder all together. Jmo 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Sounds like u have your mind made up. Good luck.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't see any attraction in this pedigree and am not sure what draws you to it. It is such a mismatch of bloodlines and dogs that there is absolutely no way to predict what the outcome might be. The genetics are just all over the place and chances are that even amongst littermates there will be huge variations based on what traits each individual inherits from what ancestors.

However, it appears that these 2 dogs have been bred together before this. In which case, ignore the pedigree and look at those dogs as the real flesh and blood products of this mating will provide the best indication of what to expect in the current litter. Get contact information for their owners from the breeder, and contact as many of those people as you can asking specific questions about their dogs as they would relate to your situation and what you want in a dog. If any are close to you, go meet the dogs in person. If that research indicates that the majority of the offspring from previous breedings of these dogs would be a good fit for you, then it is likely that a pup from the current litter would as well. If however most, or all, of those previous dogs would not be a good fit, than I certainly wouldn't expect the current pups to be any different. Don't take the breeder's word for it that they are producing what you want. Not saying that they are dishonest or anything like that, but don't forget that they have something to sell to you. And there is something called "kennel blindness" that can affect breeders too, where just like any other pet owner who loves their dogs they can become too close to their dogs to really see and acknowledge their faults. So it always pays to obtain more objective information from others, particularly those with first hand experiences with the results of these breedings.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What Chris said!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"I was more drawn to the litter because of the Dam, Kafi, and her imported Sire/pedigree." what? the dam's sire is
*Ezekiel 
vom Bountyfull* OFA-G*
*
*Double K Choice of Texas or "Harley"
*black/tan/grey(CANADA)


Harleyphoto
*Dekers True Grit
or "Texas"
*OFA29F
OFEL29
black/tan/grey***Watch
**Dekker **Kiona Masuta **
Cita Mocha **VESA's L.S.A.T.
*CD *Asta Jayr
*CD *
Sultan's Storm Shadow **Sultan Shadow Magrath **Butch 2nd **Franzer O'Halloran Leapchew ****Shadowhawk's Intermezzo
**Shadowhawk's Denver **Shadowhawk's Fireworks **Ole O's Wyona
*black(CANADA)


*
Sunshadow's Target
*SchH2*
Cherry v Schienerberg
*SchH3 IPO3 CDX ***V Boris v Trogenbach
*SchH3 FH ***Britta v Korbelbach
*SchH3 ***Sunshadow's Becca
**Ulk v Bungalow
*SchH3 FH*Tanja vd Jungen Hansen
*SchH3 ***Chricava's Valencia Sunshine**V Semiahmoo's Gunner
*Western Canadian Sieger*Quatsch vom Cellerland**Semiahmoo's Rebecca
*Western Canadian Siegerin*
SG Chricava's Melba
*black
*Pozmanns Argo*
ScH1 BC YouthSieger1977*Chricava's Freda*

there are a lot of unknowns and some of the names were a franchise - you bought their stock , bred according to their dictates, pups sold under their name and a percentage went back to them either in pup or cash. yes. Even so that is not reason enough. The dam has a mother line , and you are not buying the dam you are buying offspring so that brings in another 2 sets of parents - 3 lines that are not the dams sire - who is not imported. 

this "Their mindset does not entirely match my high level of working dog ideas, but they do believe this match can and has produced high quality dogs with working capabilities" is a contradiction as was the statement immediately before that saying " and it does seem to match what you say about the breeder's aim or intent."
I don't understand ? why in the blazes go with them then. They don't know working , because they are not involved. Just how old is the female? Seems she has had a few litters. Her oldest is from 2007 making them 5 years old. I hope that she was at least 2 years so she is potentially 7 years old with 3 litters under her belt and a fourth possible. When she has that fourth she'll be over 8 years old? Too much. 
the sire of the litter has american show lines "Coal Town" 
west German show lines extremely angulated "canadian show lines" -- no reason for the pairing . These were not working dogs in any stretch of the imagination.

good luck. 

*for the pleasure of it, and to be able to offer impressive dogs at affordable prices*


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

*Thank you*



Ace952 said:


> Sounds like u have your mind made up. Good luck.


If I had had my mind made up I wouldn't have opened the thread. I'd appreciate constructive comments to the issues I requested help on. If not, don't post.

To the others- especially Carmspack, Freestyle, Chris Wild - thank you for your input. I had questions that with your help turned into more important questions that I, myself, needed to provide answers to.

I visited the breeder today and evaluated the pups. They were great pups, but as was said by all, not working pedigree. Had I not asked myself more important questions I may have made concessions in evaluating my test results and purchased the pup of choice in this litter. I did NOT.

Now my search continues and would appreciate any help in locating a reputable breeder in my region. My eyes are set on Haus Gill to start with and will be contacting the kennel. Any thoughts on this kennel?

Any other breeder recommendations in my region?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Capone22 said:


> I think you could get a more qualified working line pup for around 1500. I'd skip that breeder all together. Jmo
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


 
Me too!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

intriGSD said:


> If I had had my mind made up I wouldn't have opened the thread. I'd appreciate constructive comments to the issues I requested help on. *If not, don't post.*
> 
> *Yes, certainly that attitude will make me (and others more knowledgable?) much more eager to help in any way I can!*
> 
> ...


 
*Good luck!*


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

intriGSD said:


> If I had had my mind made up I wouldn't have opened the thread. I'd appreciate constructive comments to the issues I requested help on. If not, don't post.
> 
> To the others- especially Carmspack, Freestyle, Chris Wild - thank you for your input. I had questions that with your help turned into more important questions that I, myself, needed to provide answers to.
> 
> ...


I like what I see on the Haus Gill web site.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Keep looking....


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

Smithie86 said:


> Keep looking....


Is there reasoning behind that? Are you pointing me to your website?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

We are not allowed to bash breeders on this board so often it is just safer (to avoid a warning) to say "keep looking" or "this is not a breeder I would get a puppy from". Sue is just telling you that this is not a breeder she would purchase from. 

Pointing to one's own website would be advertising so that too is not allowed.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thats just so silly ...both you and Sue have your websites listed in your signature lines and thats not advertising-to say keep looking is cryptic--and just because Sue doesn't think its a good breeder really doesn't convey anything...trust yourself with whatever you decide to go with and whatever your criteria is


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...although she using a bi-color stud dog...


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

lhczth said:


> We are not allowed to bash breeders on this board so often it is just safer (to avoid a warning) to say "keep looking" or "this is not a breeder I would get a puppy from". Sue is just telling you that this is not a breeder she would purchase from.
> 
> Pointing to one's own website would be advertising so that too is not allowed.


Good to know- I didn't consider that, was just looking for more information. PM's wouldn't be subject to those guidelines, or?... Bashing is one thing, providing factual information another. This shouldn't turn the thread into a debate about posting information, I'd just like to have information at hand about breeders in consideration if those with the information would consider sending a PM my way. 

Thanks!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, people can bash away in PM's.  Information is allowed to be posted and recommendations.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Smithie86 said:


> Keep looking....


You mean Haus Gill or the first "breeder" posted?


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

Catu said:


> You mean Haus Gill or the first "breeder" posted?


I think that reply was to the Haus Gill question..


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't think so . The keep looking was meant for the first breeder !


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## Valerie Clayton (Jan 4, 2012)

Al Gill has been around for a looong time, he has 100s if not 1000s of happy customers, and I'm sure a few unhappy ones because you can't please everybody. He breeds with the goal of producing police K9s, and he likes a specific kind of dog for street which may or may not be what's popular at the moment. I won't paraphrase him on what kind of dog he likes because I'm afraid I would misquote him! But he's an honest guy, he'll tell you what kind of dog he has, what you might expect from a pup and if he thinks it'll meet your needs. 

A long time Schutzhund guy at our club, who just put the IPO2 on his dog from popular Czech lines, was just saying at training last week that the best working dog he ever had was a pup he got from Al. I used Al's new male **** on my bitch this year. I didn't breed to sell pups, I bred to have a pup to compete in IPO. My 1st priority was iron clad, unshakable nerve; then good prey, then accessible defense; and finally good structure. I did NOT want any "slow maturing" or weird "fear periods" or any of that nonsense. My pup is just 4 months now, but so far she is exactly what I wanted. Here she is annoying my husband for the ball: Abby von den Wachhunden des Bach, not quite 4 months - YouTube Her 2nd bitework session was at night and she was under 4 months, she was right there at the end of the leash - never hackled, never took a step back. So I'm very happy with my Haus Gill sired pup so far. 

All that said, I don't know if Al has the right pup for you because I don't know you. There are lots of good places to get a good working pup in MI/OH/IN/IL/TN, including people on this board, Al is just one of them.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The comment was ambigous-seriously any breeder I was interested inI would go visit and Iwould have a list of things that mattered to me and if I was seeking advice I would seek it from people I actually knew


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## sddeadeye (Apr 5, 2011)

I posted in your other thread as well. Seeing as you are from the Dakotas, as am I, I know there is one breeder in MN that has received good reviews from what I have seen that you may want to consider.

Staatsmacht Kennel, one of the top working lines kennel in the world


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## Stefan Schaub (Jun 20, 2011)

Valerie Clayton said:


> Al Gill has been around for a looong time, he has 100s if not 1000s of happy customers, and I'm sure a few unhappy ones because you can't please everybody. He breeds with the goal of producing police K9s, and he likes a specific kind of dog for street which may or may not be what's popular at the moment. I won't paraphrase him on what kind of dog he likes because I'm afraid I would misquote him! But he's an honest guy, he'll tell you what kind of dog he has, what you might expect from a pup and if he thinks it'll meet your needs.
> 
> A long time Schutzhund guy at our club, who just put the IPO2 on his dog from popular Czech lines, was just saying at training last week that the best working dog he ever had was a pup he got from Al. I used Al's new male **** on my bitch this year. I didn't breed to sell pups, I bred to have a pup to compete in IPO. My 1st priority was iron clad, unshakable nerve; then good prey, then accessible defense; and finally good structure. I did NOT want any "slow maturing" or weird "fear periods" or any of that nonsense. My pup is just 4 months now, but so far she is exactly what I wanted. Here she is annoying my husband for the ball: Abby von den Wachhunden des Bach, not quite 4 months - YouTube Her 2nd bitework session was at night and she was under 4 months, she was right there at the end of the leash - never hackled, never took a step back. So I'm very happy with my Haus Gill sired pup so far.
> 
> All that said, I don't know if Al has the right pup for you because I don't know you. There are lots of good places to get a good working pup in MI/OH/IN/IL/TN, including people on this board, Al is just one of them.


that looks really annoying
i was last week at my vet for sperm collection and there was a guy waiting with his gildalf male.he told me that is the best dog he ever had,be nice to everyone and plays with the cat. do i know now more about gildalf??no!!!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

:laugh:...you might want to re-word you post maybe?? But thanks for the laugh


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I chuckled as well.


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## Stefan Schaub (Jun 20, 2011)

holland said:


> :laugh:...you might want to re-word you post maybe?? But thanks for the laugh


why should i??do you want tell me you do not understand what i mean.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

looks like a nice pup Valerie !


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Stefan Schaub said:


> that looks really annoying
> *i was last week at my vet for sperm collection* and there was a guy waiting with his gildalf male.he told me that is the best dog he ever had,be nice to everyone and plays with the cat. do i know now more about gildalf??no!!!


This just reads funny in English because there is no reference to your dog in the sentence.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I think the "vet" specification indicates this is a collection for a canine. Do you know many human males that go to the vet for collecting and testing?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I understood what was meant just sounded funny...


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## Stefan Schaub (Jun 20, 2011)

robk said:


> This just reads funny in English because there is no reference to your dog in the sentence.


if there is need for german blood i can also go to collection


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Stefan Schaub said:


> if there is need for german blood i can also go to collection


*"i was last week at my vet for sperm collection"*

I didn't read your earlier sentence as a need for "Blood" of any nationality! Heh! Heh!

And it definitely caused a chuckle or two here!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> I think the "vet" specification indicates this is a collection for a canine. Do you know* many human males that go to the vet* for collecting and testing?


 
????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

What's the confusion?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*OK, we have had our fun. Let's get back on topic. *

*Thank you,*

*ADMIN Lisa*


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## intriGSD (Dec 13, 2012)

holland said:


> The comment was ambigous-seriously any breeder I was interested inI would go visit and Iwould have a list of things that mattered to me and if I was seeking advice I would seek it from people I actually knew


We don't all have those luxuries. I've posted in here because that invention called the interweb is a never ending source of information. Some of us are able to discern what is valuable and what is garbage. Just because some of the questions are about the basics doesn't mean that it's blindly directed. 

I'm not in any circles of high caliber trainers and breeders. I'm starting out, not to breed, but to train. The only thing of importance is to do it right. That is the thread's intention. Nothing twerks me more than a condescending post with enough information to throw it off to the side as better off never written.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

intriGSD said:


> We don't all have those luxuries. I've posted in here because *that invention called the interweb* is a never ending source of information. Some of us are able to discern what is valuable and what is garbage. Just because some of the questions are about the basics doesn't mean that it's blindly directed.
> 
> I'm not in any circles of high caliber trainers and breeders. I'm starting out, not to breed, but to train. The only thing of importance is to do it right. That is the thread's intention. Nothing *twerks* *(??????)* me more than a condescending post with enough information to throw it off to the side as better off never written.


 
Is this yet another new invention?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Robert, I may have missed it but where are you located?


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

If you want to train your pup for schutzhund or other protection sports you'll need a club or at least experienced person to train with. Do you have access to that? If so, visit the club, and as you learn you can generally get input on breeders there. A wonderful puppy suited to the sport is only one part of the equation.
Sue


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## Bountyfull Reg'd Kennels (Apr 12, 2013)

Just a quick response as I am sure you have found your puppy already. I own the sire to this dame of the litter you looked at, Ezekiel Vom Bountyfull is from my kennel, my breeding, I still own him at age 13. His sire Harley lived till he was 12 his Dame, Oleoswyona, lived until she was 14. I bred both, twice. Had two STRONG working litters from these two. All are in Canada as that is where I use to live. The sire Harley, was a security dog for about a year until I moved. STRONG NERVES and drive to die for. The K9 unit in the police department in Calgary Alberta offered me good money for him, I refused. Was not my goal with him. This top line of Kafi has produced some good working dogs. I can not vouch for the bottom (dames) line as I did not bred this dog Kafi.

All I can say you are correct in liking the top line. It's a very good working line and I have repeated several breeding on Ezekiel to the same Czech female for some amazing puppies. Have several all over USA and Canada working and in breeding homes. But again, I can only vouch for the top line, I am unsure how the dame of this dame has produced. And I can only vouch for the breeding's I have used him for. He was used by the owner of Kafi for several years and I do not know what they produced. But when I used him for my program he sired strong dogs of good prey and ball drives. His sires tracking was to die for. Have tons of amazing Harley stores on what this dog has done, from saving my daughter from an attacking dog to tracking her to a school that he had never been to, on the day of an oncoming storm.


Good luck.


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