# USCA Elections



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jim Alloway: president
Frank Phillips: VP
Michelle Scarberry: Sec
Sean O'Kane: Treas


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I will now renew my membership!


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Karen MacIntyre: (nominated from the floor) National Breed Warden


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Soo happy for jim!


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Thank you Lisa!!

Am super happy for Jim and Frank!!


----------



## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

That's great now let's see if they actually amend the JA.....


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Guess I am now a member of the auditing committee.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, great about Jim and Frank. Michelle will be an excellent secreatry.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Yay Frank!


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

:groovy:


----------



## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I don't think there was ever a doubt. That's great news.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What is the status of the JA amendment? That would be a game changer for me.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

They ran out of time before it could be voted on, but from the consensus of those there it would not have been changed or removed.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Congrats to everyone! 

This is awesome!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbsdown:


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let me explain my down thumb....it has nothing to do with new leaders elected....it has everything to do with the overall value of the JA amendment. There are many good dogs and breeders in the U.S., many people still go overseas to procure their dogs. There are still many GS breeders in this country that don't have a clue about working or training a dog. I see these areas as places where IPO or Sch make a valuable contribution to this breed in America. But the problem is there are far, far, too few clubs in the country for the size of the country. Too few venues to train or title a dog. So we have two organizations that can convey legitimate titles and what do they do? They are heck bent on destroying each other. You know, that parochial attitude based in such pettiness as who was here first, this one did this to me, that one isn't improving the breed, or this one is associated with that other organization, and on and on and on. I expect more out of junior high school kids! Who suffers from this garbage??? The country and the breed in general. Neither organization is large enough to adequately serve the country that's why more dogs aren't titled in this country. Pathetic ! I have been to USA Seigers shows and WDA Seigers shows....same kinda of dogs in both....same quality, USCA working national championships and WDA working national championships.....again the same type and quality of dogs???, the same Judges from abroad judging both. This is so sad on so many fronts. Often, dog people after being in the breed for awhile become very intolerant, snobby, and exclusionary unless you do things their way! 
I was really hoping this election would bring some mature perspective and long range thinking, instead of parochial pettiness that is not beneficial to the breed overall except in each camps mind. This reminds me of the national landscape, wherein people place more value on tearing down the opposition than working together for the good of the majority or for the good of the many who want to compete but not enough resources available.
Sorry about the rant, don't want to derail thread, but I feel strong about this, and I don't have to feel peer pressure to think or speak without an agenda.
Very,very, sad, IMO!


----------



## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

Cliff :thumbup:
I've never been or ever will be a WDA member, but we've had a lady with a seasonal home here that has trained/trialed with us. She's a WDA club member at home, and would've trialed with us but couldn't due to the JA amendment. Most folks from both organizations are just people who want to train and trial their dogs and do the best for the breed with no interest in the politics of it. Many of us have to drive long distances as it is.....accessibility is important.
Sue


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

justde said:


> Most folks from both organizations are just people who want to train and trial their dogs and do the best for the breed with no interest in the politics of it. Many of us have to drive long distances as it is.....accessibility is important.


Exactly. Both organizations have things to offer me that the other doesn't and I don't appreciate being limited for whatever political agendas I could not care less about. The WDA, at least the clubs in my area, only ever use SV judges so it's nice to know that your title, show card, breed survey, or dental certification is going to hold up anywhere regardless and no one can pull the rug out from under your dog over politics that do not involve you or the work you did to title. Most if not all of the USCA events in my area use USCA or USCA-SV judges whose titles and ratings are not necessarily accepted outside of USCA. USCA hardly offers any shows or breed surveys, but they do offer a vast number of trial opportunities in my area where WDA does not. I've always done both and will continue to do both since my dog has both scorebooks and despite USCA insisting you cannot have two, they have to recognize the SV titles in my WDA book (I also do RKNA and SDA events in my area). But it's annoying and expensive having to pay extra fees for not being a member of one organization or finding a co-owner to join the other. I guess what bothers me the most about the JA is that the people who support it as far as I don't know really have any experience with the WDA. I am a founding member of a WDA club and have entered and attended many WDA events including shows, trial, and Sieger Show but someone who has no experience with their club can tell me I can't join it because_ they_ don't like it? To me it just seems juvenile. People insist it's for the protection of the breed....yeah right, it's for their own agenda and _their_ idea of how a club should be run and who should run it, is all.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I just want to train mine and others dogs. If the politics and bs get in the way, fine, I won't trial and will gladly save my cash. I just want to train my dogs and will ditch any thing or group that gets in the way. I train solely to better know and understand my dogs' hearts and souls. The titles after my dogs names are just numbers and letters and I care little about them...


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I like to train AND trial my dogs. Well actually I hate trialing and it scares me, but I like to put the training to the test and have some affirmation of the hard work the dog has done. But I don't get why it has to be so political with so many roadblocks? Like Cliff said, you see the same quality of dogs - often the very SAME dogs - in both organizations' events, yet they both seem to hate the other and think they have the wrong idea of a German Shepherd. I have one GSD that has competed in WDA and USCA trial (and RKNA and SDA trial), WDA and USCA shows, and attended NASS and USCA Sieger Show. If both orgs say the other is promoting the wrong kinds of dogs does that mean that my dog sucks at everything?


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I LOVE putting our training to the test. It can be a trial or me having someone test something with me or simply being in the wrong place at the right time... Less and less do I even see a trial as really testing all our training :-/


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What was the reason for only having the venue until 4:30~an annual meeting that had time constraints?!
Obviously some planning went into that, wonder who's agenda THAT was.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, since it wasn't voted on this year................save it for next year. Different group of people with a different agenda!


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

justde said:


> Most folks from both organizations are just people who want to train and trial their dogs and do the best for the breed with no interest in the politics of it. Many of us have to drive long distances as it is.....accessibility is important.


VERY true!
I'll just add to the accessibility to include "AND quality training" is important. 

Cliff, Lies & Sue - :thumbup:


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Most if not all of the USCA events in my area use USCA or USCA-SV judges whose titles and ratings are not necessarily accepted outside of USCA.


 This is incorrect. USCA titles are recognized everywhere. Just USCA only judges titles are only recognized as "sport" titles in regards to a breed survey.



Liesje said:


> I've always done both and will continue to do both since my dog has both scorebooks and despite USCA insisting you cannot have two,


Again, incorrect. This is a DIRECT FCI rule.

From page 12 of FCI rules:

_"Scorebook _
_A scorebook is mandatory for every participating dog. Issuance of the scorebook is done according to the 
instructions of the handler’s corresponding National Organization. Important to note, only one 
scorebook may be issued per dog."_

So this is NOT something that UScA is doing. This is a FCI rule and YOU are violating the rule and so is the organization that allows you to use 2 scorebooks. Just so you have the correct information 

Frank


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

So very, very happy to see Frank as VP.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It was cited to me a few years ago, when this all started, that the dual membership was hurting (in ??? way) the USCA standing with the SV.

That for some reason, the SV was looking at the membership numbers of GSDCA/WDA and USCA.....

The ASL people make up GSDCA, and add to that, the Euro showline people who make up the majority of WDA, thus these members being counted twice for GSDCA....these membership rosters are therefore already skewed. Then you add the people who are primarily USCA members and who would pick up WDA membership for show convenience or whatever (free advertising on the WDA website for members for litters - why I was a member at one time), it effectively swelled the GSDCA/WDA numbers....remember, there are over 200 local USCA clubs, and apx. 50 WDA.....Logically, USCA is larger - but I have no clue about the membership numbers of ASL fanciers....

Thus the GSDCA/WDA seems to be a much larger organization than USCA - take away those dual memberships of people who are primarily USCA members, and the GSDCA/WDA number shrinks - leaving a more clear picture to the SV of which organization is larger....

I cannot remember WHY this was so important, but that was the basis for the amendment from what I understood. 


It was really not a out of the blue, ego thing, there was some reason that the SV was concerned about the membership numbers being skewed by dual memberships.

Keeping the USCA members from being dual members diminished the GSDCA's claim to be the largest organization for the GSD in America.....I don't know the current numbers.....but I have noticed a shift from alot of people who initially went WDA back to USA - even a couple of big show clubs!

Lee


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> From page 12 of FCI rules:
> 
> _"Scorebook _
> _A scorebook is mandatory for every participating dog. Issuance of the scorebook is done according to the
> ...


How does USCA police it? They issued me their scorebook which was the second scorebook and have never objected to the existence of the original one or having it produced as proof at their events. What does the FCI want people to do, burn their scorebooks? I'm not going to repeat titles issued by SV judges over politics that doesn't mean much to me. 

I get the "USCA standing with the SV" thing but it's confusing because the SV won't recognize the breed surveys. I'm told that the "USCA-SV" judges are *not* recognized as SV judges while the WDA events are always judged by SV judges. When you look at which organization offers SV show cards, SV titles, and SV breed surveys it's the WDA. I keep being told I need to do a WDA breed survey if I want the SV to always recognize it (though I'm not doing this, because I'm a member of USCA and their titles and surveys suit me just fine since I live in the USA).


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> How does USCA police it? They issued me their scorebook which was the second scorebook and have never objected to the existence of the original one or having it produced as proof at their events. What does the FCI want people to do, burn their scorebooks? I'm not going to repeat titles issued by SV judges over politics that doesn't mean much to me.


This is the rule as of Jan1 2012. Only one scorebook will be filled out at any event you enter. You are not expected to repeat titles, but it is on you to folloow the rules and to submit one scorebook from now on, not switch back and fiorth between the 2. Since Jan 1, 2012 only 1 book should be issued.



Liesje said:


> I get the "USCA standing with the SV" thing but it's confusing because the SV won't recognize the breed surveys. I'm told that the "USCA-SV" judges are *not* recognized as SV judges while the WDA events are always judged by SV judges.


This is also NOT correct. WDA, just like UScA has their own judges, some are SV recognized some are not. But I beleive the SV recognized ones in both are still not for breeding in Germany




Liesje said:


> When you look at which organization offers SV show cards, SV titles, and SV breed surveys it's the WDA. I keep being told I need to do a WDA breed survey if I want the SV to always recognize it (though I'm not doing this, because I'm a member of USCA and their titles and surveys suit me just fine since I live in the USA).


This is only if you are one of the 3 or 4 people in the US that plan to ship your dog to breed and/or whelp IN Germany. But just like in WDA, if you use a UScA/SV Judge or a SV Judge then I believe the Koer is "recognized" in Germany, just not for breeding IN Germany.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What do they mean by "submit one scorebook"? I only ever give the trial secretary the scorebook pertaining to the organization hosting the trial or the show (as in, the book that the title being earned will be recorded in), but if they need proof of the other titles (which sometimes they ask for) I produce the other scorebook and always submit scans of both when entering. I always take both along and hand the trial or show sec whatever one is for that organization so the title/show rating/dental gets recorded.



schh3fh2 said:


> This is also NOT correct. WDA, just like UScA has their own judges, some are SV recognized some are not.


They do but every WDA event I've entered or attended has been SV judges. I didn't even realize WDA had their own judges until several years in. I don't doubt it but at least in my area they aren't used. I know some USCA clubs bring in SV judges (not the USCA/SV ones) but these events are not as frequent in my area, so usually if I want an SV judge for something I enter a WDA event (normally I do this for show cards and dental certifications, so I can use them for any breed survey later on and not limit myself to one organization).



schh3fh2 said:


> This is only if you are one of the 3 or 4 people in the US that plan to ship your dog to breed and/or whelp IN Germany. But just like in WDA, if you use a UScA/SV Judge or a SV Judge then I believe the Koer is "recognized" in Germany, just not for breeding IN Germany.


Yep that is why I am happy with USCA breed survey. I live in the USA so the USCA is my national club. Plus I like that they take OFAs, that saves a lot of money. But it still is confusing when USCA says they are with the SV but then has less events with SV judges and breed surveys that may or may not be recognized (every time I ask I get different answer and it seems that *for now* the USCA/SV breed survey is recognized by the SV but they could change that and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it). Since I don't breed dogs and won't send dogs to Germany it really doesn't matter to me personally but the way the topic is discussed has been very confusing to me because on one hand USCA seems to be all about the SV but then on the other hand might not be recognized?


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> What do they mean by "submit one scorebook"? I only ever give the trial secretary the scorebook pertaining to the organization hosting the trial or the show (as in, the book that the title being earned will be recorded in), but if they need proof of the other titles (which sometimes they ask for) I produce the other scorebook and always submit scans of both when entering. I always take both along and hand the trial or show sec whatever one is for that organization so the title/show rating/dental gets recorded.


What you are doing is in violation of FCI rules. In the future you should not be able to abtain 2 scorebooks for a dog. The same scorebook MUST be used for the dog at every event for the dog entire life. If you want to follow FCI rules, I am sure some people can cheat and will still try to.





Liesje said:


> Yep that is why I am happy with USCA breed survey. I live in the USA so the USCA is my national club. Plus I like that they take OFAs, that saves a lot of money. But it still is confusing when USCA says they are with the SV but then has less events with SV judges and breed surveys that may or may not be recognized (every time I ask I get different answer and it seems that *for now* the USCA/SV breed survey is recognized by the SV but they could change that and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it). Since I don't breed dogs and won't send dogs to Germany it really doesn't matter to me personally but the way the topic is discussed has been very confusing to me because on one hand USCA seems to be all about the SV but then on the other hand might not be recognized?


ALL UScA judges titles are recognized for UScA breed surveys. If you have no plans to breed your dog in Germany and you are happy with UScA breed surveys then why do you even worry about it???? There is no gain at all to using SV judges in this instance.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

schh3fh2 said:


> What you are doing is in violation of FCI rules. In the future you should not be able to abtain 2 scorebooks for a dog. The same scorebook MUST be used for the dog at every event for the dog entire life. If you want to follow FCI rules, I am sure some people can cheat and will still try to.


How does the FCI factor in? It is confusing because there is AWDF, USCA, SV, FCI.... I'm entered in a breed survey in a matter of days and now am being told I am "cheating" but I don't understand how to resolve this? If it is cheating to present proof of a breed survey requirement earned by an SV judge then how is this resolved without re-doing it? The event secretary was given scans of all the papers required to do a breed survey and never said anything about SV stuff not being accepted. I can't burn my WDA stuff because it has breed survey requirements (earned under SV judges) but this makes it sound like any dog that has ever participated in anything prior to USCA membership cannot participate in USCA events or is cheating?


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> How does the FCI factor in? It is confusing because there is AWDF, USCA, SV, FCI.... I'm entered in a breed survey in a matter of days and now am being told I am "cheating" but I don't understand how to resolve this? If it is cheating to present proof of a breed survey requirement earned by an SV judge then how is this resolved without re-doing it? The event secretary was given scans of all the papers required to do a breed survey and never said anything about SV stuff not being accepted. I can't burn my WDA stuff because it has breed survey requirements (earned under SV judges) but this makes it sound like any dog that has ever participated in anything prior to USCA membership cannot participate in USCA events or is cheating?


I never said you were cheating. I said if people get 2 scorebooks in the future and turn in one then the other depending on where they enter, then it is against FCI rules and they are cheating. If you are just showing the older scorebook to prove titles then it is no problem now, if you continue to switch back and forth then you are violating FCI Trial rules. As of Jan 1 2012 the dog can not have more then one scorebook. What I said (if you go back and reread) 

_"In the future you should not be able to abtain 2 scorebooks for a dog. The same scorebook MUST be used for the dog at every event for the dog entire life. If you want to follow FCI rules, I am sure some people can cheat and will still try to."_


No where in that statement did I say you were cheating. I said ther will always be "some people" that will try to cheat.....

The FCI is who the AWDF, SV, AKC ALL report to. They make the IPO rules for everyone.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You said I ("YOU") am violating a rule so I'm trying to figure out how to not do that...


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> You said I ("YOU") am violating a rule so I'm trying to figure out how to not do that...


 Only turn in one scorebook from now on.

you said " I only ever give the trial secretary the scorebook pertaining to the organization hosting the trial or the show (as in, the book that the title being earned will be recorded in),"


I said this was in violation of FCI rules and it is.....But I didn't mean to implay at all that you were cheating.... This is in fact violating FCI rules and it sounds like you didn't know (hence not cheating IMHO). showing the old scorebook to prove titles is ok but if you continue to switch back and forth then you are violating FCI rules..... The cheating comment was ment more for the fact that some people will always try to cheat and get around rules and was sincerely not intended to be pointed at you at all.....


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As far as breeding a dog in Germany - as an American taking a bitch to Germany to breed to a male - where the dog is titled, under what judges, whether or not they are breed surveyed and under which system doesn't matter. It only matter if you were to want to breed a litter IN Germany. Of course it would matter if the scenario was a German bringing a bitch to the USA to breed to a male here. Then they would have to follow their countries rules.  

I sure hope USCA doesn't stop accepting OFA hips/elbows or I will never do another breed survey.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

schh3fh2 said:


> Only turn in one scorebook from now on.
> 
> you said " I only ever give the trial secretary the scorebook pertaining to the organization hosting the trial or the show (as in, the book that the title being earned will be recorded in),"
> 
> ...


OK I'm still confused, please bear with me because I want all my ducks in a row (and have friends in the exact same situation as me, trialed at the same trials and switched memberships about the same time, and don't want to tell them wrong). I don't need to switch books for IPO (other than the switch I already did which was to an AWDF book) because the WDA will accept the AWDF book, but it sounds like just by having two or having obtained two it is a violation? Or only if one was obtained this year? I got one in 2008 and one in 2010 and have been using the 2010 one since 2010 other than having to still carry the 2008 one and show it as proof (I was told to photocopy the page and glue it into my AWDF one but still carry it just in case). So I could get rid of the old one so I'm not in violation (having two) but then don't I risk having to repeat what's in there if I can't prove I earned those things already? That is the part I don't get. If it's a violation to obtain a new book what would someone do who wanted to switch to USCA and get an AWDF book and hadn't done so before January?


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

No you are fine if you are only turning in one scorebook since Jan 1 2012. Just keep the old one with you. You are ok because both were issued before Jan 1 as long as you are only "using" one.

There should not be more then one scorebook issued for one dog from now on.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have some friends that just left/are leaving the WDA so they have WDA books but might switch to USCA membership....they would need a USCA (AWDF) book right? But cannot get one and are stuck with WDA because it is after January? Or will the USCA accept the WDA book since they can only have one? I see I am in the clear because I made the switch two years ago but people who didn't before January, are they not eligible to be issued a USCA/AWDF book? This is way too complicate, lol!


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I have some friends that just left/are leaving the WDA so they have WDA books but might switch to USCA membership....they would need a USCA (AWDF) book right? But cannot get one and are stuck with WDA because it is after January? Or will the USCA accept the WDA book since they can only have one? I see I am in the clear because I made the switch two years ago but people who didn't before January, are they not eligible to be issued a USCA/AWDF book? This is way too complicate, lol!


 I believe, if the WDA books are issued by the WUSV member (GSDCA) then they can join UScA send in their scorebook and have them certified and then they are free to enter UScA events.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Weird...why did I not just do that? Oh well I like the AWDF book, it has more space for "other" (non USCA-IPO) stuff.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

From the application for how to order a scorebook on the USCA's website (under forms),


> “Scorebooks issued by other clubs, SV, DVG, ADRK, etc. *(with the exception of scorebooks issued by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America, WDA)* can be USA-certified by sending the original scorebook, a copy of the dog’s registration papers and a copy of your current membership card to the USA Office. The appropriate fee(s) are as follows: if you are a current USA member, the cost would be $10.00. If you are a non-member, the fee would be $40.00.”


Maybe it’s the wording that is throwing people off but to me it sound like a scorebook issued by either the GSDCA and/or WDA is being treated as an exception and will not be certified by USCA. Maybe it’s a grammar thing and they meant to say the GSDCA-WDA (or WDA) but because of the comma and not a dash the meaning becomes both the GSDCA and the WDA just as it does when they say "SV, DVG, ADRK, etc.". I understand why the WDA book is not recognized as they are not WUSV members.

I can see where this creates confusion for people. It confuses me. I think maybe USCA needs to correct this form.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Exactly that is why we are confused. I read the same thing a while back and figured, OK people who want to switch from WDA to USCA will just do what I did and buy a USCA (AWDF) book instead and stop using a WDA book for trials, but now it sounds like as of Jan 1 you cannot do that and that I was "grandfathered" in because I think I switched before January (and FWIW I did not switch because f JA or scorebook rules or anything like that, I simply switched because there are a lot of good USCA trials in my area and I can still participate in WDA shows without being a member of that club).


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

FB page for USCA.... https://www.facebook.com/pages/United-Schutzhund-Clubs-of-America/120022411379624?fref=ts
maybe someone on there could clear the confusion?


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

onyx'girl said:


> FB page for USCA.... https://www.facebook.com/pages/United-Schutzhund-Clubs-of-America/120022411379624?fref=ts
> maybe someone on there could clear the confusion?


:laugh: Why? We're getting our confusion cleared up right here from the new VP. I think he's explaining this to us very nicely. No need to ask elsewhere. 

Besides I think my post was more of a comment than a question. I was just saying that I think that is where some of the confusion comes from. People saying one thing and the form on their website says something else.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL yeah Frank is doing great here! Maybe I should volunteer to update the organization's web site.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, from what you both posted....the words confused, confusion seems to be standing out. Wouldn't the secretary (Michelle) be the one to clarify the wording on the website? Hopefully it all can be updated before the next trialing season begins! It looks like the website just had an overhaul. 
BTW....Thank You Frank for posting here


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The web site is not confusing to me but depending on who you ask the answer is different.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

the web-site needs to be updated with correct information.

The problem with boards, FB pages, etc is that you only reach a very small portion of people that you are trying to communicate to....


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If the USCA will stamp a WDA scorebook I would post that on the unofficial WDA facebook page, you might get an influx of new members!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have had 2 imported dogs who had 2 scorebooks....

Alice alt Duesener Land had a DVG and an SV....the BH was done at DVG, listed in the SV along with Sch1....this was long ago....she was born in the mid 90s.

Basha came with 2 books.....both had all titles done in Belgium listed - they have the 2 club issue there as well! - USCA office said to just pick one to get certified....no clue why she had 2 Belgian scorebooks unless it was the same deal with the 2 clubs.

I know that some people were doing co-owns on dogs with one owner being a WDA member and the other a USCA to get around the rule. And I saw WDA people showing at a USCA show 2 years ago too....

Lee


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Vinnie said:


> From the application for how to order a scorebook on the USCA's website (under forms),
> 
> Maybe it’s the wording that is throwing people off but to me it sound like a scorebook issued by either the GSDCA and/or WDA is being treated as an exception and will not be certified by USCA. Maybe it’s a grammar thing and they meant to say the GSDCA-WDA (or WDA) but because of the comma and not a dash the meaning becomes both the GSDCA and the WDA just as it does when they say "SV, DVG, ADRK, etc.". I understand why the WDA book is not recognized as they are not WUSV members.
> 
> I can see where this creates confusion for people. It confuses me. I think maybe USCA needs to correct this form.


In the past GSDCA-WDA scorebooks were "issued" by the WDA. The GSDCA-WDA is not a WUSV member and has no international memberships. The GSDCA is the WUSV member. So their scorebooks were not recognized by UScA. If the new GSDCA-WDA scorebooks are now issued from the WUSV member org, the GSDCA, the UScA will recognize the scorebook. I am not 100% positive about where the scorebooks are issued and recognition and I need to get more information but this is my understanding as of right now. We are very busy right now trying to learn everything and come up to speed with all the committees. When I know for sure, if it is different I will post on here.

We are pushing very hard for a new website and thus some of the information is outdated and not correct anymore. But should be updated.

Hope this helps

Frank


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Liesje said:


> LOL yeah Frank is doing great here! *Maybe I should volunteer to update the organization's web site.*


PLEASE!!! 



onyx'girl said:


> Well, from what you both posted....the words confused, confusion seems to be standing out. *Wouldn't the secretary (Michelle) be the one to clarify the wording on the website? * Hopefully it all can be updated before the next trialing season begins!


I don't know. That could depend on many things. First, does the secretary take care of and maintain the website? Where I work we have an outside person take care of the website, not our secretary. Then (just to clarify) it's the wording on a form (application for a scorebook) that is posted on the website, not the website itself. Approval to change the form would have to be granted before changing it, I would assume. I have no clue of that's something the secretary could just do or if she'd have to get someone else's approval. 

Just thought I'd bring it to attention in case they want to change it. I don't really care but think a correction would make things easier and create less questions. That's all.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The co-ownership would only be necessary for entering NASS. I've entered WDA shows as a USCA member (and not a WDA member) and they don't care if you are a member unless it's a Sieger Show. I think a lot of the big show kennels do use the co-ownership thing but a lot of regular folk who show at club and regional shows don't bother since membership is not required.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There is a scorebook application on the WDA site
http://www.gsdca-wda.org/documents/pdf/applications/scorebookapplication.pdf

That's from the WDA site not the GSDCA site (so far can't find anything about scorebooks on the GSDCA site). It doesn't really clarify WHO is issuing the book (GSDCA or WDA). Not sure if that helps or just makes it more confusing!


PS. Jane I sent the question to the USCA office (not really sure who it goes to, but I had an e-mail contact in my address book that I've used for other questions in the past).


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

schh3fh2 said:


> In the past GSDCA-WDA scorebooks were "issued" by the WDA. The GSDCA-WDA is not a WUSV member and has no international memberships. The GSDCA is the WUSV member. So their scorebooks were not recognized by UScA. If the new GSDCA-WDA scorebooks are now issued from the WUSV member org, the GSDCA, the UScA will recognize the scorebook. I am not 100% positive about where the scorebooks are issued and recognition and I need to get more information but this is my understanding as of right now. We are very busy right now trying to learn everything and come up to speed with all the committees. When I know for sure, if it is different I will post on here.
> 
> *We are pushing very hard for a new website and thus some of the information is outdated and not correct anymore. But should be updated.
> 
> ...


Cool. I'll look forward to seeing an evolving website! AND it looks like you may have a member who might be willing to volunteer to help with that. 

Yes, you have been very helpful. Thank you.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL yeah I'd be willing although I'm kind of getting out of web stuff because I can't keep up with mobile. I don't use mobile devices myself (shocker) so I'm not up with mobile responsive design, but I suppose these days no matter what you do your site is outdated in five minutes!


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Vinnie said:


> I don't know. That could depend on many things. First, does the secretary take care of and maintain the website?


No, she does not. A different person, but he would need to be told what to update and with all the things going on the last few months I'm sure he has not been told do update everything.




Vinnie said:


> Then (just to clarify) it's the wording on a form (application for a scorebook) that is posted on the website, not the website itself. Approval to change the form would have to be granted before changing it, I would assume. I have no clue of that's something the secretary could just do or if she'd have to get someone else's approval.


The form is very old and needs to be updated for sure.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Liesje said:


> That's from the WDA site not the GSDCA site (so far can't find anything about scorebooks on the GSDCA site). It doesn't really clarify WHO is issuing the book (GSDCA or WDA). Not sure if that helps or just makes it more confusing!


I'm told that the WDA scorebooks are currently issued by the GSDCA and the GSDCA-WDA jointly as of April 2011. (According to then WDA secretary, Gayle Kirkwood). I believe this was in preparation of the pending FCI rule of one scorebook effective Jan. 1, 2012. People with older WDA scorebooks are encouraged to contact them.



schh3fh2 said:


> The form is very old and needs to be updated for sure.


Cool I'll look for an update before I begin trialing next spring. Thank you.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thank you Vinnie. I'm guessing those with the original WDA scorebooks would probably have to get the new GSDCA issued one from the WDA and then get *that* one stamped through USCA. Sounds like a plan!


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

My understandng is same as Frank's. The new GSDCA-WDA scorebooks are issued by GSDCA. If that is the case, that is the scorebook (not the prior WDA issued one) that could be accepted.

The web-site committee presented a draft and highlevel timeline of the new web-site; they has been working on it for quite some time (about a year?). They did say in the board meeting that they were verifying against all mobile devices.

One issue in the past is getting information updated is getting updates and getting them in a timely manner An example was getting the Regionals (directors and breed wardens) to provide current contact information for all their clubs, etc. Charlie and I tried that a few years back in order to make sure that all the conact information was correct and current on the site.- that should be informaton they have handy and could get updated fairly quickly. Even given 3 months to do so (and then extended out again), the response rate was 10% and 0% for majority of the regions.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Smithie86 said:


> One issue in the past is getting information updated is getting updates and getting them in a timely manner


Oh I can feel your pain! I do our department's web site at work (and being IT we have a HUGE web site full of troubleshooting, knowledgebase, web forms, SLAs....), but a site is only as good as all the people and information that feed it, and most days I'm embarrassed by it, lol. Short of just making up the information I don't personally know there's not much that can be done.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Liesje said:


> Thank you Vinnie. I'm guessing those with the original WDA scorebooks would probably have to get the new GSDCA issued one from the WDA and then get *that* one stamped through USCA. Sounds like a plan!


My understanding is that they just contact the WDA to get a new cover. Take the old book and remove old cover then attach new cover with both the GSDCA and GSDCA-WDA logos (should have both logos on the new books). Send it in to USCA w/their form and fee and have it stamped/certified. Sounds pretty simple, hope it works as well as it sounds.

That's how I understand it anyway - not sure I'm correct but I'm going to try and check with a few WDA friends this weekend on what they've done.


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Vinnie said:


> My understanding is that they just contact the WDA to get a new cover. Take the old book and remove old cover then attach new cover with both the GSDCA and GSDCA-WDA logos (should have both logos on the new books). Send it in to USCA w/their form and fee and have it stamped/certified. Sounds pretty simple, hope it works as well as it sounds.
> 
> That's how I understand it anyway - not sure I'm correct but I'm going to try and check with a few WDA friends this weekend on what they've done.


Well it is not quite that simple. They must be a member of a WUSV member org or AWDF member club in order to have UScA certify the scorebook and allow entry into our events.....
GSDCA-WDA is not a member of either.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

schh3fh2 said:


> Well it is not quite that simple. They must be a member of a WUSV member org or AWDF member club in order to have UScA certify the scorebook and allow entry into our events.....
> GSDCA-WDA is not a member of either.


No but I think Lies was talking about her friend(s) joining USCA which would cover the WUSV membership. Or they could just become a member of the GSDCA.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

And stick to having only one scorebook....


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah that would work as long as the WDA would fix the old scorebook without them having to be a member of *that* club or their screwed by the JA. I won't get mine fixed because I don't need to use it for IPO (only produce it as proof) and I'm assuming I can still use it for conformation since FCI is making IPO rules not conformation rules.


----------



## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

I have yet to fully understand why the USCA must *certify* other organizations score books. I know for a fact they don't check to see if they are valid or whether the scores are already actually earned somewhere other than a USCA trial. I've been issuing score books for one of the AWDF clubs for over a year and not once has the USCA ever contacted us regarding whether the book was actually valid or not.


----------



## la_nausee (Dec 28, 2011)

KJenkins said:


> I have yet to fully understand why the USCA must *certify* other organizations score books. I know for a fact they don't check to see if they are valid or whether the scores are already actually earned somewhere other than a USCA trial. I've been issuing score books for one of the AWDF clubs for over a year and not once has the USCA ever contacted us regarding whether the book was actually valid or not.


Good point. Here's another thing. Paul Schneider judged and gave me my IPO1, listed in my WDA scorebook. Will USCA rcognize this, or will they say it's invalid, like they did in the past with Mike West. The reason I ask is that our WDA club would like to change to USCA, we only chose WDA 3 years ago because we didn't think we could consistently host 1 trial a year. Well we learned can hold 2 trials a year without difficulty. But since our members filled the gsdca-wda scorebooks with wda judges, we're reluctant to switch if it means we must do the titles over again.


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

la_nausee said:


> Good point. Here's another thing. Paul Schneider judged and gave me my IPO1, listed in my WDA scorebook. Will USCA rcognize this, or will they say it's invalid, like they did in the past with Mike West. The reason I ask is that our WDA club would like to change to USCA, we only chose WDA 3 years ago because we didn't think we could consistently host 1 trial a year. Well we learned can hold 2 trials a year without difficulty. But since our members filled the gsdca-wda scorebooks with wda judges, we're reluctant to switch if it means we must do the titles over again.


 Mike West's titles in the past were not recognized because his Judge's Lic was not issued by a WUSV or FCI member org. It was issued by GSDCA-WDA that has no membership in either the WUSV or FCI. Now that he has the SV recognition then his titles are recognized. I do not know Paul Schneider but if his judge's lic is issued by a FCI or WUSV organization or if he is a WDA judge and attended the meeting and got SV recognition, then his titles will also be recognized.


As for the scorebook "certification" and the fee... UScA spends thousands of dollars each year on Judge's and Helper education, they also have a paid full time office staff that track and record all trials results. These services are provided for UScA members and are paid for by UScA members dues. 

To offest costs, non-UScA members are charged a fee to use our services.

Why should NON-members get to use these services free of charge? If UScA did that why would anyone join and pay dues? I hope you can understand the simple fact that UScA will not over charge our members to provide servies free of charge to Non-members.



Frank


----------



## la_nausee (Dec 28, 2011)

You think a non-member trialing at a usca event, paying the entry fee which goes to the hosting club which in turn goes to the fees of the national organization, is using the services for free? What non-members complain about paying fees? I can trial at a dvg trial while paying the entry fee, in some cases higher than a dvg member, without dvg wanting to certify my scorebook under their stipulation. But then again DVG has no qualms with WDA. I really dont care, but I want to point out that paying fees are non-issue. Rather there is the question of motive that exists.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm OK with fees as long as we are honest about what it's for....the club needs the money to survive, plain and simple. It is really nice to have actual office staff. It's nice to be able to pick up the phone in an emergency and call the office, get things cleared up right away, or if you send in a package and it's missing some paperwork you can fax it over and someone is right there to pick it up and process your paperwork. All clubs have these fees here and there. I've quit doing several other dogsports because the entry fees alone are getting ridiculous. At least the nice thing about SchH is you get three phases for one entry!

I believe you'd have to pay a fee to have a scorebook certified even if you are a member?


----------



## la_nausee (Dec 28, 2011)

This is why this sport, undeservingly, is a dying one. The policies of the national organizations, both WDA and USCA, are put in place for the hopes of delegitimizing the other's presence and influence. This negatively affects the community, especially the newcomers like me from truly enjoying the sport.


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

la_nausee said:


> You think a non-member trialing at a usca event, paying the entry fee which goes to the hosting club which in turn goes to the fees of the national organization, is using the services for free? What non-members complain about paying fees? I can trial at a dvg trial while paying the entry fee, in some cases higher than a dvg member, without dvg wanting to certify my scorebook under their stipulation. But then again DVG has no qualms with WDA. I really dont care, but I want to point out that paying fees are non-issue. Rather there is the question of motive that exists.


 La nausee

If you have been around a while you would have known that for years, there was NO extra charge for non-members to enter UScA trials. There was only the scorebook certification fee. The additional entry fee has only been in effect for 2 years. I do not have all the answers, but at least I am trying to find out the answers and not just hap hazardly throwing out accusations with nothing to back it up.

So tell me because I would really liek to know.

What is the motive? and Please back it up with some facts.


----------



## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Liesje said:


> I believe you'd have to pay a fee to have a scorebook certified even if you are a member?


Yes you pay a fee as a member for certification. 

I actually have no problem with charging non-members a higher fee to enter though as far as I know DVG doesn't. Neither does the USRC to enter a club or regional trial. I do take issue with the certification fee required for any non-USCA score book. I can pretty much take my DVG book anywhere in the world or the US and the USCA is the only one who needs to make a buck before it's valid. 

Let's be honest it doesn't cost anymore to type in a non-members name in the computer than it is a member name. This is about the attempt to make it more fiscally compelling for someone to join the USCA versus paying the higher fees.


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

la_nausee said:


> This is why this sport, undeservingly, is a dying one. The policies of the national organizations, both WDA and USCA, are put in place for the hopes of delegitimizing the other's presence and influence. This negatively affects the community, especially the newcomers like me from truly enjoying the sport.


 
Please also show where UScA has ever tried to delegitimize GSDCA_WDA?

GSDCA has tried to have UScA removed from WYSV 3 times. GSDCA tried to block the UScA representative from attending the WUSV meeting this year.

And now to you UScA is the big bad guy because it does something protect itself. maybe your anger ought to be pointed at the one starting the problems...GSDCA.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Every business or organization is going to do some things differently. They can’t all be the same. You don’t like that USCA wants to certify a scorebook? Fine, I don’t like that I have to have my 4-generation pedigree tattoo/micro-chip certified just to get a WDA scorebook. That not only takes extra money but extra time (including a visit to the vet). I don’t like that to be a DVG member and obtain one of their scorebooks I have to belong to a DVG club (there are no DVG clubs remotely near me). There’s always going to be hoops to jump through and things you dislike in every organization. They are run by people and people are not perfect. 

USCA is an organization. It is a competitive business that needs to grow and thrive just like any other competitive business. It would shock me if they didn’t try to do what they could to get and maintain members (within reason). That’s just smart business if you ask me and I for one personally wouldn’t mind paying an extra fee or going to the trouble of having a scorebook certified for being a non-member of the organization. 

I just want to be able to participate and compete without being sneaky or cheating. I'm thrilled that I can now see a possible way to do so - thanks to Frank's input here.

ETA: I am not a USCA member and am not defending them, just saying I can understand the reasoning.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I wish there was a way to just pay the fees and be done. I'm so paranoid every time I have to send my dog's paperwork off somewhere (this is not just USCA but any of these orgs). This morning I made copies and scans of everything that's going bye-bye for the breed survey. If none of these orgs are actually checking the titles or anything it would be awesome if we could just PayPal the fee online and print out a receipt or sticker for the scorebook or something like that.


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I wish there was a way to just pay the fees and be done. I'm so paranoid every time I have to send my dog's paperwork off somewhere (this is not just USCA but any of these orgs). This morning I made copies and scans of everything that's going bye-bye for the breed survey. If none of these orgs are actually checking the titles or anything it would be awesome if we could just PayPal the fee online and print out a receipt or sticker for the scorebook or something like that.


 
People get on these list, spout off with nothing to back it up, and then are not held accountable at all. The problem is when people come on here to really try to get correct information and they go away with the wrong idea/impression of what is really happening. And more often then not get incorrect information.

When you send your scorebook to UScA for certification, The office documents what titles your dog already has, so that when a club sends in your IPO2 paperwork the office knows you already had a BH and IPO1 by recognized judges. The smaller clubs can rocognize anyone because they do not have any international ties and do not have specific requirements from a parent organization. The information is in the scorebook is signed by the judge, no need to call the smaller clubs (and that would be very difficult because most do not have offices or staff to answer the phone and verify the information).
So all the UScA office must do is document what titles have been earned and by what judge, apply a UScA scorebook number to the outside and send back to you.

I understand and feel the same when I have to send off my orginals, but they must see the original.

Hope this helps

Frank


----------



## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Once again regardless of if it's *small* club or not the USCA office has no idea whether that _*score book*_ has actually been issued by said organization without verifying with the issuing organization. Same can be said with any titles. Does the USCA office have copies on file of every FCI performance judge for comparison? How about trial secretaries?


----------

