# No heat please! Civilized discussion!



## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

So, when I received my September issue of the GSDCA German Shepherd Dog Review, I noticed some pictures that I'd like to point out to people. I AM NOT TRYING TO BASH ANY PARTICULAR LINES, DOGS, OR BREEDERS, I just wanted to illustrate a highly debated issue in the German Shepherd breed over what has happened primarily in the American show ring. First, I will post an illustration from our pal Linda Shaw and her wonderful illustrated breed standard.








According to fancy angles, math, etc. this is what the ideal gaiting GSD should look like.

Next, from page 28, there is low and behold and article entitled "Form and Function." There is what I would label a well-balanced GSD pictured with this article (HC Hillside Von Weiden's Eclipse UD, HXCs). Now, I don't know this dog or anything about it, but chances are, it would not place well in the conformation ring. Obviously, this dog can do it's herding job well by earning a herding champion title, as well as obtaining a high level obedience title, so isn't this the type of dog that should be winning in the breed ring? The movement looks very natural and effortless. I was told by a fellow exhibitor once that the front foot should reach well past the nose when gaiting. If you look at dogs that exhibit this extreme gait in a stacked pose, they are usually the dogs that have "no front" or very steep upper arms I believe it would be called, please correct me if I'm wrong. This dog's front foot doesn't reach past the nose, so my guess is likely it wouldn't even get a second glance from the judge. Sorry, I cut off his hind leg when scanning since it was in the crease of the magazine.







As a side note, she had an OFA good and elbows normal. She was born in 1991.

Flip just 2 more pages to page 32 and we see an advertisement for stud service to a champion male (CH Cade of Fran-Jo). Again, I know nothing about this dog or breeders. Compared to the standard, and the working dog, this dog looks like he's trying too hard. His front foot goes well past his nose, and his back foot goes well past his front foot. He also looks as if he's putting lots of effort into this movement and that he's running on a hill, even though the ground appears to be level. Chances are he earned his championship easily, as he is also pictured on the next page as BOB with his high placing progeny.







Cannot find any OFA information on this dog.

I didn't include any German showline dogs, as there aren't any in this particular magazine. But breeders and judges really need to take a step back and look at what they are producing and what they are promoting. Take off the kennel blinders and become an expert on the standard and think about the function of the dog. A GSD is a working dog, regardless of if you want to say herding or schutzhund was their purpose, it's all working and a structurally unsound dog cannot work. Again, I don't want to bash anybody, or lines, I just wanted people to do a side by side comparison and discuss.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Well, all I can say from looking at the two photos is that the second dog has his hock laying ON THE GROUND which can't possibly be good movement. The first dog pictured - the one with the real titles - is the type of dog I would choose anyday over the hock-dragging dogs. And the first dog definitely meets the illustration of the trotting GSD much more than the second dog does.

I often wonder how many of those who are breeding for the over-angulated, hock-dragging type of conformation dog actually do anything ELSE with their dogs? Do they get out and run through woods, jumping over fallen logs after an occasional rabbit? Do they herd? Do they hike with them, take them to the beach and let them run in the sand and the muck and the occasional big wave? Or do these dogs mostly live in concrete kennels and only come out to stretch their legs during shows or practices?

I really find it pathetic that the general public has been led to believe that a conformation championship is "THE" top title a dog can get. How many unsuspecting pet people buy a dog because it's from "championship lines" and end up with a dog that isn't physically capable of doing the things they want - and often mentally not capable of it too (I have seen a definite change in the intelligence of the different styles of shepherds ... American showline dogs tend to be less intelligent, less intuitive than working line dogs (from my own experiences).

A German shepherd should be capable of being a working dog even if it's just a pet.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... with my working pet dogs, chows and shepherds!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Now I knew nothing about GSDs before I got my first dog, but that second picture is part of the reason why I did not choose the breed. Just my opinion, but it looks deformed. Another of my reasons is that I wanted a smaller dog, plus less shedding. 

That herding dog looks much better!


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Everything about the first dog's structure is soooo much better, the reach, the flatter topline, the second dog even appears to have a roman nose and barely any stop. I just dont get it either, do breeders of these overdone dogs sincerely think they're dogs meet the standard? I would really like it if someone interviewed a breeder of those kind of dogs and pressure them on how they're breeding AWAY from the standard.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

*No offense meant to the ASL breeders who are breeding for a purpose other than the show ring







.*

These breeders are breeding to win shows. That's all. It's what AKC breeders do, in all the breeds. Do you think the AKC Ch Labrador is able to hunt or the AKC Ch Doberman is able to do protection work? It would be tough to find the needle in that haystack. It will only change if they ALL decide to change, I'm not holding my breath for it. 

When browsing through the schedule for our last AKC conformation show here, I found only 2 or 3 dogs (out of something like 50) who were OFA certified, and maybe half a dozen with a title beyond the HIC (granted, most of the dogs showing are young). I think a lot of AKC breeders (not just GSD) use PennHip, it can be done as early as 16 weeks.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

it is indeed sad what has happened to almost all american showline shepherds. it seems that everything has been sacrificed to exaggerate the gait.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

The first dog is beautiful! You'd have to be blind not to see that is a stunning dog.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

The second dog is a champion? Scary. How can he run without stepping on his front leg with that big sloppy hock that's flopping on the ground?

I'll take my DDRs and WGWs thank you.







Otto looks like a dumptruck when he's running but he's so fast I can't even get the camera out before he gets to the end of the field.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

The first dog's breeder/owner used to show in AKC conformation shows before she discovered the joys of herding. She bred several champions with OB titles. Now herding takes up all of her time. Eclipse is a beautiful bitch from the West Coast's top show lines. But when comparing the two pictures you have to remember that there are two camps of AM show line breeders -- Specialty show breeders (the 2nd dog belongs in that camp) and all-breed show breeders (the 1st dog, and my dogs, belong in that camp).


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, even the little show camp is split. The German Shepherd has been bred down to many "types". Some dogs can do well enough in both rings, but not most. The specialty dog is a dog bred for the specialty ring. It is a particular, perhaps peculiar breeding basically for one small venue. It usually rewards an extreme sidegait. There appear to have been efforts at improvement as dogs are cleaner moving and males more masculine looking. Even temperaments appear sounder from several years ago. 

Give me a dog bred for correct and balanced drives, the genetic grip a GSD is to have, rock solid nerves, reliable and appropriate aggression, structure to work, trot and run and jump not just side gait. This type of dog is very difficult to breed for because you can not go for extemes or you will lose in another area of the dog. I love a good looking dog, correct to standard who I can take to any venue. Funny my dogs can do fairly well almost anywhere.... agility, herding, protection, tracking, even dock diving with the labs. There is only venue I can think of where we wouldn't make a passable showing.... yup, you guessed it...specialty show ring. So who is upside down?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

The same dog also will look different gaiting if it is loose (like the first dog), vs. if it is going (trotting) as fast as it can and pulling on the lead. (Like the second dog.)

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying the 2 dogs pictured would look the same if both were loose or both were gaiting on lead. But the second dog would look at least alittle less "extreme" if he was loose trotting around a field.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not particularly like either dog in the pictures, but this is simply preference. However, a statement was made that because the dog is herding champion, it suggests or proves that the dog can do the job of herding. Not so. The pictured dog may be able to do the job or not, but that the dog can herd three or five or a dozen sheep from point A to point B within the time limit -- ten minutes I think, does not mean that the dog could do the job of a sheep herder. 

I know very little about herding itself as I have never owned sheep. But even the hobbyists that go to the shows and title and compete in herding that own a few head of sheep for the dogs to work on are not actually having the dog do the job. 

Sheep herding would be an all day, every day deal, there is no endurance test in AKC herding. The dog would have to have good drives to stay on task the entire time. The dog must both drive the sheep, and guard the sheep so it would have to be able to protect a dog from a preditor whether human or wolf/coyote etc., there is no protection phase to AKC herding. The dog would have to have superior intelligence to collect and move a hundred or more sheep at a time, sometimes moving them along a highway and keeping them off the road and out of the corn fields. 

An AKC herding title provides that the dog can be taught to be a sheep herding dog, if he meets the other requirements. Or, it simply provides that the dog can learn how to move a couple of animals from here to there without mauling them. In my opinion it does show the dog's instinct when deciding how to move the sheep, and its obedience skill. But it does not provide a true test of the dog's ability to be used in this function. I think it is a great sport for people to get involved with, but like Rally and Obedience and Agility, and Schutzhund, the function is more about us having a good time with our dogs than preparing or trialing our dogs in some type of work. And further, I would imagine that dogs out there doing the various jobs, might be poor candidates or might score lower on any of these tests than dogs trained for competition.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

Just from looking at the photos above, I am disgusted by what has happened to the breed (referring to the second photo.) Although not mentioned as often, the dog has a hideous roman nose compared to the first dog. It's as if these specialty show line breeders care so much about 'gait' that they've sacrificed richness of color, integrity of the GSD head/face, balance of the body, temperament, and not to be forgotten: working ability.

The first dog looks dark, balanced, with a nice straight muzzle on a strong head, appropriately sized alert ears, with a dark mask. He still has angulation, but it is within reason imo...

The second dog looks lighter, overdone, extremely roman nose on a collie head, weak ears, topped off with a faded mask.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone who likes the second dog, it is just my honest opinion...


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I have only attended 2 2 day herding tending seminars, first time I just watched,Ty was 4 months old, the second time he was entered, it was amazing, you don't teach the dog, instinct takes over. They start circling on their own, and once they see the boundary, in our case a row of manure, they mostly respect it and when it is time to move the sheep from the graze to the pen, well when I was in charge it was a mess, but when the instructor did it, I still can't explain how Ty knew what to do and where to be to do it. 

We had 20 sheep, none trained for tending style so they expected to need to run and be driven by the dog, so when I moved them I didn't control Ty well enough and the sheep kept splitting and running and he gathered them and returned them time and again to me and I lost control. Finally Susan, the instructor, took the shepherd crook and instantly Ty responded to its positioning and the sheep and him where perfect, we moved down the 'road', through the gates and to the graze under control.

Remembering we were total novices each dog worked about 1/2 hour and had 3 times in the field/day. It needed tremendous endurance and intelligence and herding instinct or drive. If that dog pictured on top was a herding champion, she may have been as able as any schutzhund dog. Her movement in my opinion is as close to the standard as could be asked for, so I would then think her conformation must also be close to the prefered. There is a reason Von Stephanitz wanted them to be longer than tall, and not square as most breeds are, it was for this movement, long trotting stride to cover as much ground as effortlessly as possible. This is my opinion and experience only.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

Selzer, I can see what you are saying that just because the dog has a Herding Champion title, does not make it a working dog, but I think with a high level title like that I'd have to disagree with you. Sure the dog is not outside working all day with the sheep, but I'm sure there were MANY hours of training and trialing that the dog went through to achieve that title and if the dog were not stucturally and mentally sound, it may have broken down and would not have been able to complete these tests. And if the dog had no natural interest in moving the sheep, it could likely be taught with a lot of training, but it would be unlikely to become a champion herder.

BlackGSD, good point, the dog would look different if not on a lead. I did not take that into consideration. When I began showing in UKC a judge kept telling the handlers he wanted to see loose leads, the dog's head knows where to go on it's own and the body will follow.

I also didn't realize that the Am. Showlines were also split into "specialty" and "all breed" groups.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I tend to agree with Selzer, when you have to do something all day regardless of conditions you will see a lot of dogs that appear good under ideal conditions wilt. JMO


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Having earned rally titles, obedience titles, agility titles AND herding titles on my dogs over the last 20 years, I can say that the herding does take more natural instinct and physical/mental strength than any of the other venues. Most of those dogs are working primarily off of the instincts that SHOULD be there in a herding breed dog. These aren't trained behaviors - they're instinctual behaviors that are then molded and fine-tuned through additional training. And it does take quite a bit to keep the sheep on task when the sheep are wanting to do something else (sheep are the most stupid animals I have ever encountered .. *L*). Most of the herding lessons I went to lasted 30-60 minutes and we went pretty steady, so even the teaching part of it all is more strenuous and demanding than a simple obedience practice.

So for a dog to reach the point where it's earned a herding championship, you've got a dog that has shown a true NATURAL tendency toward herding, the ability to be taught to respond to a handler regardless of the temptations in front of them, AND the endurance to continue doing this day after day, trial after trial until they earn enough points to get the championship title. Performance championships (whether it be herding, obedience, agility, hunting, etc.) tend to show that a dog has the mental and physical soundness to continue working in their chosen venues until they've earned enough points to make it. This isn't easy by any means and shouldn't be looked down upon as being as easy as a worthless RN title or a very beginning CD title (titles that virtually mean NOTHING) - it does show natural instinctual talent that could very likely allow this dog to be a true working herding dog, and a certain amount of endurance and physical health that allowed the dog to continue to the point of a herding championship.

My little herding dog never earned a championship, but I herded everything from sheep to cattle to horses to pigs with her - she actually helped outside of any "show" arena. The neighbor was always impressed when I brought their pigs (HUGE pigs) back with my little Australian shepherd nipping at their heels to push them away from the rabbit food (they'd come over to eat the rabbit food that dropped out of the rabbit feeders). And this dog was great at keeping the wildlife out of our area - she could dart out and run a moose off and then come trotting back to watch the area while I went out to feed horses. I've always believed in having my dogs' abilities be used in the most natural ways we can, so I want my dogs to have those natural abilities in the first place. Too many dogs have had their instincts bred out of them by people who were breeding inferior dogs, dogs that were meant to just produce "pet" dogs, dogs that shouldn't have been bred at all or were bred because of some look and not because they were truly compatible.

My youngest GSD has already proven her worth in chasing off a couple of moose and one black bear - and she comes right back to me when I call her off. This isn't something she's taught, it's natural for her to want to keep threats out of her area. It DOES say something about her level of confidence and intelligence. But she sure would get laughed at in the conformation rings up here.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What is the motivation for people to participate in Specialty shows?

They don't really look like GSDs, act like GSDs. 

Do they enjoy them as pets? Is there something that these dogs are offering that they can not get from another line? 

Not saying an animal has to be or do something to deserve love of course, but just wondering what these dogs bring to the table and why a certain group of people do what they do to create them. I always want to understand this stuff-curious. 

Like in Morgan horses. I am not into the breed like I was when I was a kid, but some have lost the "type" so much...giant, leggy, thin...what the heck!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: What is the motivation for people to participate in Specialty shows?


It is the same reason that many people participate in all kinds of events with their dogs -- the feeling of success. If they do well, they are accepted by their peers. And they work hard at it. With the National Specialty coming up, there are people roadworking their dogs miles every day (I used to do it on a bicycle in my younger days). Then there is training so that the dog gaits against the arena wall all the way around on a loose leash. There is lots of grooming as well, so that the coats are perfect on the big day. 

So I guess it is like entering your child in a beauty contest.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

thank you for your post, I had tried with my very limited experience to show that herding is hard work adn without instinct you could never get a herding championship. I think too many people believe GS were bred for schutzhund work, NO, they were bred first as sheep herders, then the other was added in as a second job. I am not belittling those dogs just saying that is not the only test of breed worthiness. The dog at the top is definitely breed worthy and the other may be, I am not good enough to know. I( would be very proud to get any herding titles, obedience titles, agility titles, what ever, it means we have tried something.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Herding is a very demanding exercise physically and mentally in real life. It definitely brings out many natural intinctive behavoirs that should be part of the German Shepherd make-up. A National champion in any event does not a breed worthy German Shepherd make. Schutzhund and Herding are acceptable venues for German shepherds to exhibit their breedworthyness. Again no dispute about this. I am not saying that either dog above does or does not have the ability to herd or be breed worthy because I don't know the dogs. What I do know is that the test of breedworthy is formulated to identify dogs that have the mental, physical abilities to work. The dog wasn't created to show or to TRIAL. It just happens that these are the mechanisms we use to demonstrate physical and mental instincts and abilities. Frankly, the originator of the breed repeatedly said that breeding to produce trial and show animals were counterproductive to the breed. 
I say the above to say that many trial and shows today no longer test the dogs abilities and instincts by either being too easy or having priorities of passing not to strenthen these instincts but to acheive another purpose(shows and trials). 
Many dogs today can function in a sterile environment that they have trained on under these training conditions. Some of these dogs can make the transition to real work whether it be herding, SAR, or police. MANY can't though they are champions in sport or show. Don't take my word for it ask people who actually train dogs to do REAL work. Therefore, to assess real breedworthyness, we must strive to produce dogs that can really work or the breed ceases to be a working breed. therefore, the tests we use MUST be able to TRANSLATE into producing or weeding out dogs that are incapable of working if they are to be examples of breedworthyness. JMO.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I expect you particularly down the RN and the CD because I have these on my dogs. But so what, I agree, I can put an RN on any dog. It is not the destination but the journey, but if you do not have the title, than you really cannot claim the work. 

I really like herding and absolutely love the way the instinct is shown by the dogs. But herding titles and herding championships do not PROVE that a dog will engage a predator. It does not, in my opinion PROVE that the dog can do the job. How many herding events did this champion go to to gain the required points. Sat and Sunday, how many weekends. This does not prove the dog has the endurance to stay on task for eight or ten hours a day. 

This is all I am saying. Herding is fun. It is work. Yes it does prove the dog has instict, but you can do that at a puppy match with a few sheep. Got the certificate. It certainly does not prove that my dog can do herding as a job. 

As for specialty dogs. I think Dallas was a specialty dog and he had some type of herding title, possibly even a championship. There are so many dogs bred to Dallas in the specialty arena that it is hard to breed away from him. 

I think that there is enough trouble in the US going on right now with breed specific legislation and anti breeding legislation that we shepherd owners, and dog owners, need to stop sniping each other and each other's lines, and what is breed worthy and what is not to be considered, and come together. 

You working line people who are into herding and schutzhund, good for you, but why bash German showlines, American lines, and the American Specialty dogs. They are not your cup of tea. That is fine. The working lines, are not my cup of tea, but that should not immediately put me into a lower class of being. 

Right now we need every purebred dog owner to get over their petty differences and make themselves heard or the special interest groups who are well banded together may just put all of us in a world of hurt.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, yes, just ask a breeder what real world work they are breeding for, what traits they select for and for examples of their dogs that have accomplished the goals. 

Go ahead, have a go at it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Selzer, not really sure what you are saying, but I am not putting down any type of dog for peoples personal enjoyment. Never have. I only emphasize that breeders of german shepherds are different from owners of german shepherds. So whatever type of dog you own enjoy the dog and do every thing you can with the dog. As for breeders, they have a higher calling and responsibility in that there is a standard for them to follow to create dogs that can perform certain functions. If they are responsibly doing that they have no problem with me regardless of the type. I personally don't subscribe to show/working labels. I subscribe to a good German shepherd should exhibit certain traits consistent with the breed and its legacy. If it does regardless of color, type, owner or breeder, then that dog is a good dog worthy of being breedworthy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote: What is the motivation for people to participate in Specialty shows?
> ...


Thank you Daphne. I appreciate that answer. 

I have only been to one dog show and it was a Specialty and I was kind of taken aback. 

The Morgan Horse was meant to be a utilitarian, can do it all breed. I see a lot of parallels with the GSD in how it has changed.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh my, these discussions are not about bashing. I have had American lines, West Show lines and Working lines. These dogs have been huge parts of my life. They are enjoyed as companions. I seperate that, somehow, from breeding for the dog with correct temperament, balanced and adequate drives, nerve strength and ability to perform real world tasks.

I have never taken these discussions as bashing. While I loved each dog in my life, I also understood what each one possessed as far meeting breedworthiness. 

I also do that CD thing, the RN thing, tracking etc. I know what these activities are and I know what they are NOT. This doesn't mean I am bashing them by any means, heck, I spend money and time doing them. 

I know people who breed these dogs and they well know they are breeding a GSD that could not do SAR, could not search for narcotics, could not handle herding day in and day out etc. I know there is tons of this type of breeding going on. I know that those doing it, of course, would be quick to defend it. It doesn't make it well done or meet the standard for a breedworthy GSD just because it is people's passion and they have thrown their heart,years of time and fortunes at it.


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## ldw6559 (Jun 1, 2009)

Wow this is fasinating. I have only one GSD and he is just a pet but at 8.5 months old he is 28in. and 100+ lb., I got him from the eastern Ky. mountains where a dog just isn't worth his salt if he can't be a protector and a working dog. He is the love of not only my life but more importantly every member of my family. He takes no sh**t from anyone and is a companion not a pet. He loves most everyone he meets but is reserved with some. I am 51 years old and it has taken me almost 40 years to find a dog I love more than a half breed mutt I had when I was a boy. Griffin stays in the house with us sleeps on our bed and goes to a farm we own on weekends and does his job as guard dog and protector of our family. I could care less about the show dogs as he is leggy and has stright hocks and back, but as a family companion and I stress the difference because he is his own man and smart enough to make the right decisions he is exactly what we wanted. My biggest regret is that we made the decision to have him neutered on the advice of our vet at 7 months. It is just my opinion but I think he is a throwback to the GSD's of the 20's and I should have used him as a breeder. Sorry this isn't in keeping with the thread but he is by far the best Shepherd I have ever encountered and I have owned several and went away from them for severl years as the breed changed in both looks and mentality over the years but I finally have what the TRUE essence of the breed is all about. Yes I am proud of my boy because he is the dog I remember as a child. Feerless, obedient, and above all prtective of his family with the size and strength to assure he can do the job. It is just my personal opinion but I believe the breed has suffered tremendously as a result of selective breeding that has taken away all that was once special!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

My dog doesnt have that "slopeyness" in the hindquarters.
Or I dont see it.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

ldw, I'd actually suggest you take a read around about the proper size of the GSD. Yes, Max used (and put up) some LARGE dogs in the beginnings of the breed, but eventually they came down to a size that was better for utilitarian work.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jkim Although not mentioned as often, the dog has a hideous roman nose compared to the first dog. It's as if these specialty show line breeders care so much about 'gait' that they've sacrificed richness of color, integrity of the GSD head/face, balance of the body, temperament, and not to be forgotten: working ability.


 I have been noticing the roman nose thing more and more in Amline GSDs the past few years. Often the dogs with the roman noses tend to have shorter muzzles too. What bothers me even more though, is that so many have a "droopy" look to the head/expression in general. By that I mean a lot of extra skin around the head and neck, sagging under the eyes, poorly split mouths and loose, droopy jowls. That droopyness totally destroys the "look of quality and nobility" that the AKC standard calls for (and even more so if it is combined with a short muzzle, roman nose and/or poor ears/earset). I really can't believe how many dogs with all or most of those traits that I have seen at all breed shows in recent times.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

I actually think that the dogs with roman noses look like they have longer muzzles, or maybe they simply appear longer because they are more narrow. I don't really mind the 'droopiness' because it seems that the extra skin is associated with the DDR/Czech types who (while not all) have proven themselves capable of the tasks GSD's were once expected to perform. I think the extra skin usually occurs in larger, heavier boned dogs, which imo is okay to an extent. A dog with a 'refined' muzzle won't have a very strong bite and I am of the opinion that this is an important characteristic in a working dog.

Overall I'm not happy with the dogs winning ribbons at the shows, AKC, UKC, SV, whatever. They tend to be overdone and lack a lot of what makes a GSD a working dog imho. I feel like there is a lot of debate over the legitimacy of the Schutzhund title and while there are some SchH titles that are given away where they should not have been, the routine itself will bring out things in dogs that would have otherwise gone unnoticed. GSD's are a working breed and should have to prove themselves as such regardless of how capable they look or how outstanding one believes their pedigree to be.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

All the specialty puppies that I've seen jackrabbit flop on their hocks. That is not normal for any example of the canine species. Isn't that obvious?
People are intentionally breeding deformed puppies - isn't that hideous and grotesque, unethical and an insult to nature?

A family once visited the club with their new GSD puppy. A hock walker from a big name specialty Amline kennel. Once the family saw the athletic shutzhund dogs flying around, they felt sorry for their pup. They didn't know that there were other kinds of GSDs. Everybody else felt sorry for the pup too.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

It is my belief that they are breeding what they feel is aesthetically pleasing and what will win ribbons. Maybe they don't see anything wrong with it, but I find that many showlines today are a tragic represention of the breed. I honestly feel bad for them.

Is there anyone who seriously works their showlines in schutzhund on this board? Can they keep up with the routine, the stress, and the pressure? Can they even go over those jumps with ease? I just have yet to see a showline that is able to keep up (maybe a few German showlines, but I've never seen an Am showline that could), and it is not like the work is stressful especially at club level. You can tell which dogs enjoy it, and which would rather be sitting on the couch at home sleeping. 

I understand Schutzhund is not the end all be all of all breed tests, but it was designed for the GSD. And tbh, I can't think of another test that tests the temperament and working ability as thoroughly.

Some breeds were originally bred to be companions, GSDs were not, though I feel that some types are headed in that direction.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jkim I don't really mind the 'droopiness' because it seems that the extra skin is associated with the DDR/Czech types who (while not all) have proven themselves capable of the tasks GSD's were once expected to perform.


 I have never seen a DDR/Czech dog that looks like the "droopy" Amlines I am talking about. I have seen a few German showlines that have a slightly droopy look but not nearly to the extent I have seen in the Amline dogs. These dogs almost look Bloodhound-y in the face.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AgileGSD I have never seen a DDR/Czech dog that looks like the "droopy" Amlines I am talking about. I have seen a few German showlines that have a slightly droopy look but not nearly to the extent I have seen in the Amline dogs. These dogs almost look Bloodhound-y in the face.


Can you post a pic? I'm not sure I know what you mean


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jkim
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AgileGSD I have never seen a DDR/Czech dog that looks like the "droopy" Amlines I am talking about. I have seen a few German showlines that have a slightly droopy look but not nearly to the extent I have seen in the Amline dogs. These dogs almost look Bloodhound-y in the face.
> ...


 If I can find one I will post it - I rarely see pictures of Amlines from head on on websites (unless they have good heads LOL).


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Schutzhund is NOT the thing German SHEPHERDS were originally bred to do, first was sheep tending, and yes some of AM showlines can and do tend, I have cut and pasted 2 excerpts from the past weekend AM Nationals:


Mary Ellen Kish's Caesar competed in the Best of Breed competition and went Select! How cool is that! A dog that goes Reserve HIT and finishes his HS goes Select at the same National. 

I will repeat that it was the neatest thing to see Diane and Jack taking the sheep from the trial field to the horse barns when the sheep had to be rotated during the runs. They went up and down the roads with motor homes and dogs in x-pens barking and Jack never had a problem. The fairgrounds people were amazed every time they saw this happening, they would come by just to watch.

If any of your dogs can control large flocks of sheep through all that chaos, and back and forth all day as each tester got different sheep, that dog did FANTASTICALLY. And any dog who can be Select and reserve HIT, and earn a title, on one weekend, is more than just lying around. 

With all the breed specific legislation we should try to get along and try not to bash everyone, I personally don't like all show lines, nor working, nor DDR, but respect everyone's right to love their dog and pick the best choice for them. As long as temperment and health are the top priority that suits me, and I know some of all lines who don't keep that Number 1. 

My showline is not the specialty type, because that is my preference, and yes he will and can do everything I ask of him. We will probably never try schutzhund, not an interest of mine, but everything else is and we will try all of it. I should have the support of ALL German Shepherd people in protecting my right to have him everywhere and not worry about some legislation or insurance difficulties. I will fight to defend the right of you to have your working line, DDR or what have you, so try to do the same for showlines, and BYB types too.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

Yes, Trudy, you are right, GSDs were not bred for schutzhund, BUT, schutzhund was developed to test the GSD for working ability and breed worthiness during the development of the breed.

It is my belief that GSDs descended from herding dogs and may have originally been used for mainly herding and guarding flock, but that Stephanitz wanted the GSD to be more than just a herding dog. The GSD was developed to be a great overall working dog, not just a dog that might be good at one venue.

Everyone can go around saying their dogs will do everything that is asked of them (and this is not directed at you in particular Trudy) but that is simply not the case. There are some things that are just a part of the dog's temperament and can not be trained out. There are some dogs (and really it is types of dogs) that can't do the work and can't handle even the slightest pressure. These dogs don't have the temperament to do all the jobs that the GSD were originally expected to be able to do which is not limited to herding, but expanded to include other types of work.

I know dogs that would do great in obedience, or agility, and really, they are very trainable dogs that are willing to please. They are great in crowds and are overall really sound dogs, but when it comes to guard work, they crack. They get overly defensive or go into avoidance, but no one would have ever known these dogs to be fearful had they never done guard work with them. That trait would have simply gone unnoticed.

I don't think that people who have other types of GSDs should stop keeping them, and I understand everyone with a GSD can experience breed discrimination issues but that is not what is being argued here. No type or line is perfect, but some breeds are not a good choice for some people. If people want the look of the GSD, but the temperament of a lap dog, maybe they should choose a different breed. Or, if people will always be dead set on that look, but don't want to keep up with the temperament of a working breed, the breed should just be split. That way the showlines can do what they want, and the working lines can do what they want and both groups can stop pushing their opinions on eachother.

I wish the GSD was just one dog, an active, balanced, sound, dog that could do the work if it was expected of him. I don't want the breed to continue in the general direction it is headed, especially the showlines (both Am and German.) Their work ethic for the most part is abyssmal, and sure, some of them can herd or do agility/obedience, but there are plenty of working lines that can herd, do guard work, obedience, and do everything else that is expected of them. Showlines should be able to do the same, they shouldn't settle for just herding they should be pushing for the same work ethic. If I saw a showline that was amazing at protection, I shouldn't have to be amazed, that should be the standard. And yes, there are working lines that are over the top, I'm not saying they are perfect, but they have not sacrificed their work ethic for appearance and that, to me, is notable.

The GSD was bred to be a working dog, and no one argues that working lines can't do the work. Everyone knows that they could herd, track, do obedience, agility, protection, etc. and that is what is expected of them. But there is a lot of doubt about the working ability of showlines and yet it is allowed and expected when clearly that is not what was the original intention of the breed creator. Not to say that Stephanitz's ideals are the end all be all, but I feel that there is no reason to lower one's standards to win ribbons and please judges. If showlines were doing all the same things that working lines were doing, I honestly don't think there would be as much conflict between the lines.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

thank you for your nice response, I agree schutzhund was designed for the German Shepherd, so was agility. Von Stephanitz did want an all purpose dog, and I just didn't want sheep herding dogs put down, and I thought that as the article had started with photos of 2 and some people saying the herding champion was nothing special. I just want people to work their dogs, do something, anything, and not breed, but work them. I don't know if you've ever seen pics of my boy but he is not extreme, hock walking and sloping back, I can stretch him and make him look somewhat like it. We have started tending, and tracking, and obedience, however 2 surgeries for me kinda slowing us down. He is 18 months, adn will be xrayed but probably never bred, and I do hope to finish him in Can so I can prove brains, beauty and great temperment.

I think we could get along and that is all I ask, that people get along and work their dogs


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

I have seen your boy trudy, and I remember commenting on him because I felt that he had a gorgeous head for his type . I remember him being very well pigmented and masculine, which are characteristics I like in the breed


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Now of course it is not so much about type or schutzhund. It is about nerves, temperament, willingness and courage. I have owned almost every type of GSD and keep going back to only one. Not from bias but from experience. I don't have any preference for lines only for character.


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