# Sch today



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Folks, twice I have written posts on this subject and when i clicked on submit i got an couldnot connect message and lost the post. Is this my computer??


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This time it went through....too tired to write it again now...sorry for the above.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Write the message in Word or even in an email, then copy and paste it on the board. That way if it you have problems your post is not lost.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I think this is some sort of Cliff-hanger!  So write it one more time as the suspense is going to be killing us now!

Here is a threat to produce some drive.....onyx'girl, JasonL, Samba and I can just as easily point our short yellow bus toward New Jersey rather than California for some training. Both JasonL and I have done some suit work...so we're a couple of hunks of ready meat.

Have you guys ever been to NJ? It gets a bad wrap from New Yorkers, but in reality it has some wonderful areas to visit...and excellent sea food....ROAD TRIP!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

> I think this is some sort of Cliff-hanger!


:spittingcoffee:


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am going to hijack his topic. I found this while surfing around on youtube.

I think SchH today should switch to this kind of tracking. If they would change this, I would have Miles and Miles of tracking areas to train on instead of the one or two places that are available now.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh yes, variable surface tracking. That would be good. The first surface my pup was introduced to was a parking lot.

I think the AKC TD is going to allow for an "urban" TD also. There are many places that just do not have tracts of land for tracking fields so things have to "modernize".


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I forgot who was saying it, (some SchH big wig type a few years back), .....was talking about how they were considering going to scent discrimination like the AKC, where they have to select the article with their owner's scent. The reason was the lack of sufficient tracking areas. 

This looks like a much better way to continue the tracking phase.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I vote for carpet tracking, then I could train in my living room. :rofl:


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I thought I'd never say this but... now spring is arriving I miss tracking. I had to stop with Diabla, ironically, because she is too good at it and loves it too much and was interfering with other task that are more important for the plans I have for her right now. When I started in tracking I read a lot about SchH tracking and received good advice, but about what surface track in... that I never listened. My SAR background was stronger and I tracked just where I was and when I had the time, be it in a gravel parking lot at 4 PM if needed. That and the fact that my desert pup met the grass at 14 months old meant that by 2 years old I was facing other problems with her tracking, but she could do it practically wherever I wanted.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh yeah, variable surface tracking is better than just a scent discrimination test.

I like it on the VST track where the dog has to make "the moment of truth" turn. There will be a 90 degree turn on pavement and dog must do that turn to pass. 

College campuses and office parks would become tracking venues.

Schutzhund wears me out with that foot step to footstep tracking when there are parking lots, city parks, woods and streams to be traversed!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay, one more time.
I commented on muzzle training on another thread in this topic. It got me to thinking about the difference in Sch today and when I started in mid seventies. I think you will be able to see how the differences can affect breeding choices and thus the direction of the breed.
When we trained in Sch in those days Sch was a part of the training regiment for the dog. People often did Sch to teach the dog certain skills and exercises that would be used in other applications of training or vocation. Dogs were taught commands that were to be executed anywhere or anytime. We may train in Sch on Wednesday night, go to another place on saturday and train for different things there. We trained at night, in water, in buildings, in rain, in woods and most anywhere. We used sleeves, suits, muzzles, underarm sleeves, burlap. We were not as worried about quality of decoy or the sleeve presentation as we expected the dog to make the adjustment to what was presented and perform the command that was given. We tracked on grass, dirt, concrete, over streams, and through woods. The dog learned to track but more emphasis was given to finding the articles and or the subject than the nose being 1/2 inch off the ground. Our dogs could go anywhere and perform under almost any circumstances. Heeling was an exercise that taught the dog to walk by your side and be ready to execute another command from the heeling. So dogs heeled correctly but looked ahead for whatever was asked of the dog. The complete exercise was more important than the individual parts. When you went to somebodies place to train, you commanded your dog to do what was being done that day whether it was jumping hurdles, or through windows, or over fences, or over big sewer pipes or whatever. In Sch the dog was taught to jump, but we made sure the dog would jump whatever was presented, not just a hurdle. We created obstacle courses that were varied and when you went somewhere new you expected to be able to give your dog a command and the dog would perofm on that course. None of this taking three weeks to acclimate the dog to this different variation. Sch became a foundation for the dog to be able to function most anywhere. Today, often a sch trained dog never experiences much of anything outside of the Sch field. Today, Sch is the beall to endall in many cases for people with their dogs. This has severely limited the scope of understanding the capabilities of this great breed and I believe also has not allowed strengths and weaknesses to be fully exposed. This is important in breeding selection to my way of thinking.
Now this post isn't knocking Sch as a training regiment, rather it sees the specialization and mentality of today; often makes sch the end and only product for the dog. In this regard I think we have lost a lot, JMO.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Sounds like it was more fun too.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, it does sound like more fun! Schutzhund has gotten a bit regimented, stuffy and sterile, it seems. I guess, perhaps "back in the day" there was still the sense of utility as the basis for the endeavor. 

So now, it is seen more as an end in itself?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I find the heeling with the dog looking up at the handler so unnatural...they should be looking ahead anticipating the next command, IMO. 
I think the dogs of today would like it to return to the way it was, they would have more enthusiasm in "working" instead of going thru the motion exercises that are now practiced.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I think people may had became too spoiled. Schutzhund being a sport that is played in Schutzhund clubs and thats it. I can say that here where I live (not necessarily Chile, since Santiago and other big cities have another reality) where we have no formal club, but only a small bunch of of interested people, each one of a different town that gather when we have time (and gas money), the way Cliff describes is very much how we train today. We are aware that trials where we can compete are too little to motivate us (once a year, if lucky) so we focus more in having fun teaching stuff to our dogs than that perfect retrieve over the hurdle.

I guess than to be 20 years behind in dog training has its advantages.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sch was a framework of foundation that allowed you to expand your dog's training horizons. The title was more important than the score because the title meant something. When you heard a dog had a Sch title invariably the dog was usually pretty good. Remember, in those days there were no showlines and workinglines. Not yet anyway. The courage test was a mano on mano thing between the decoy and the dog, not a launching bite exercise. Few dogs actually launched in those days, but those dogs came down the field with serious intentions. Different time, and different outcomes. Now all dogs wern't great and don't mean to project that, but the purpose and things expected from a dog were different.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Sch was a framework of foundation that allowed you to expand your dog's training horizons.


Cliff,
Although I do not possess your depth of experience, I remain capable of not only appreciating the point you raise, but recognizing the validity. This was the spirit that motivated me to pursue SDA, such that I made the investment in time to put an FO on my dog, and an investment in currency to travel from Michigan to Florida and train as a decoy for a week. I am of the opinion there is room in the training world for a national organization to operate not so much as an alternate, but rather as a complement to SchH. I am keen to watch the development of SDA, and better understand the organizational goals, while at the same time; I watch the horizon to see if UKC or even possibly AKC will offer dog sport. I understand the later are conceptually not strictly in keeping with the drive of the SDA organization (and therefore do not fit your discussion), but they would in fact offer venues to explore…and as you described historic activities, one may even elect to work agility into a training regiment. I hope you see the point I am attempting to parallel to your premise?

In a purest sense, one should take-on these types of training challenges independent of a national organization….and frankly that is what I see embodied in folks like you and Anne. The flaw in applying that assumption on a broad base is motivation. Your motivation is a breeding program, noble, and even sufficient with respect to knowing you’re producing the best you can….but for me, the end customer, my motivation is accomplishment. The organizational structure offers a means by which to track, measure, and compare that accomplishment…so it becomes an integral aspect to the equation….to a customer like me.

What is unclear to me about SDA is what do they want? Do they want a niche role in the world of dog training, or do they aspire to fill that national gap? My impression is that they prefer to remain in a high-end niche role, which I admire, but unfortunately makes it less accessible, to a customer like me. Interested in your thoughts?

Wayne


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Found this to be an interesting thread/comment on the PDB.. 

Complaining about sports and dogs today - German shepherd dog


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I agree, you can do whatever you want with your dog and I think some do. The problem that I see, and the one I am constantly struggling with, is the helpers and also the attitude that prevails in SchH . 

The way the dogs are trained now, mostly through drive, leaves a whole other skill set not developed in the helpers...and in the dogs as well. The sport re-enforces this attitude and what we have now are people who are leaving a big part of the dogs untouched. The way they behave and the idea that this is just about gripping the sleeve, also kind of re-enforces a sort of relaxed, inattentiveness in the way the dogs are worked....by all involved. Frankly, SchH has become boring to watch because the skills of the trainers are so limited. 

If people want to understand what I am talking about, try working a dog who means it, I mean stand in front of one with the sleeve on and then work one you know is "safe". There is a complete difference in way that feels....to the person. Here is an example of what I am trying to say. I am working with a helper that I used to train with a couple of years ago. Back then, I was always thinking he was too relaxed and my harshest criticism of him was that he would always be looking away and not watching the dog carefully when he was the helper. It was not just about the dog getting hurt, I am sure people thought that is why I didn't like his work. It was the attitude that sent to the dogs. The other day, he was working my young female who will bite whatever you make available. She likes to bite and doesn't care if what she bites has a jute cover or not. In fact, she already bit this helper where it really hurts. So, now he is VERY attentive when he works her and the work from him is better because of that. The whole atmosphere is different and you can feel it. It is also a bit more fun because of that. There is an element of danger I suppose that just kind of adds that spark to it but it also elevates the helper work , my handling and the most important, the dog.

 You see this inattentive, relaxed attitude in clubs also where the sleeve is slipped and then the helper is just there chatting with the crowd and so on. This attitude has kind of taken the dogs down to a much lower level and because you don't see so many "real dogs" now, people just don't notice. I still do and that makes watching SchH more frustrating and more unpleasant, especially when the people are there claiming how great some dogs are that are really only showing half of themselves. I am not trying to sound arrogant or all knowing or whatever this may sound like to some people. I am just saying why I miss some of the old ways . I am not saying it is all bad but that aspect certainly is. SchH used to be fun to watch when there was that electricity to it. It wasn't so predictable and "safe". People now go out of their way to talk about how none of it is serious. They use that to "sell" SchH to the masses but as I have said before, this was not a sport for just anyone back then because there were more dogs who meant business. That added a level of "risk" to the training, so, only certain types of people were attracted to it. 

Also, we have all these people talking about how important it is to trial on other fields and work on other helpers but mostly, what you get when you go there, is someone your dog will think is a joke. The dogs are not convinced by them and that can be a big problem. There is also no test when someone works your dog in that fashion. People don't realize it until they see the difference in their own dog when a helper who knows what they are doing works them. I have had people come here for training and then call me later to tell me I ruined SchH for them. Why I asked. Because there is no one to bring that side of their dog out and now they are frustrated. It is fun when you have a good dog and that dog is bringing it all out on the field. There is an absolute difference that you have to see and feel to appreciate. When the dog is at that level, it demands that the people step it up a bit as well. That has a way of making the whole thing fun.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I hope you can see the video, because it is in facebook and not in youtube, I tried gettig out of my account and it worked. Lets hope...

I think that the attitude of this helper is very much what Anne describes

Argos


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Vandal, I enjoyed reading your last post. I agree totally with the part abut the helper and what he brings to the field in terms of attitude. I have been fortunate to work with some great helpers, but I can see how a helper who was "half-stepping" would spoil the experience. 

I also agree with you when I say I can't see how a helper who was doing anything other than paying attention to the dog could get away with it for very long. Just when he'd think it was safe to tell somebody off the field what he did on the weekend, the guy who's training on different fields for Nationals practice sends his landshark into blind six.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Excellent post Anne.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Catu said:


> I hope you can see the video, because it is in facebook and not in youtube, I tried gettig out of my account and it worked. Lets hope...
> 
> I think that the attitude of this helper is very much what Anne describes
> 
> Argos


"This video either has been removed from Facebook or is not visible due to privacy settings."


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

An example of what I am talking about. Melanie Becker, the owner of Andy Maly Vah, got in touch with me and said I understand you guys are having a SDA trial in Nov. (Actually it will be Oct. 30,31, in NJ). She said give me the dates and I want to trial. Now Melanie has a new female that she has put the Sch2 on, and she has put the PDC from PSA on the dog. She also works the dog with K9 depts on occaision. Now Melanie doesn't train "for" SDA, she would be coming down, we would tell her the exercises, the dog knows the commands for these exercises and the dog performs. She is obviously not seeking HIT scores, but she wants to give her dog an opportunity to work in this venue and it won't be routine for the dog. I see no problem for her as I know she trains for the occaision(if that makes sense to people). 
My point is just like with Andy, she is doing Sch with this young female, but oh she is doing so much more. You think I would feel comfortable getting a puppy from this female sight unseen??????1 Guess:hug:


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Hunther's Dad said:


> "This video either has been removed from Facebook or is not visible due to privacy settings."


 It was the flattest helper ever


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