# grain free vs RAW



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I think I may be having a problem truly understanding the basic ideas of what is safe for a puppy. 

Too much protein? Too much Calcium? Too much Phos? What is truly the MAX amount on this? I can't imagine there is a maximum amount on protein or RAW wouldn't be safe for pups either.

I am trying to find a grain free food that is safe for a puppy and Orijen is not available in my area. I have been reading up on EVO and other brands that are grain free...
and I read conflicting things. Claims these types of foods are the closest thing to RAW. So I guess my question once and for all is... how is it that RAW is safe for all stages but something like grain free is not? Somehow I missing something very fundamental about protein levels and the like. I am going frustrated with the do' and don'ts and need some one to spell it out.

Thanks


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

I think you have reached a point where you have to concern yourself with science which many people here have not taken it to that extreme. With that said most people are just happy to know what are the best kibble for our dog's/ puppies.
I think most will agree Orijen is at the top even if you choose their puppy food but for the most part you want to choose a large breed puppy food. There are many answers to your question in several other threads but for the most part you want to feed your dog the best you are willing to pay for.
Orijen
Blue Buffalo LBP
Wellness LBP
Innova LBP
Solid Gold LBP
On a tight budget try from Cosco Kirklands LBP
These are food that are very good for your dog but it still depends on your dog how they do on top of the line kibble. You should slowly like over 3 weeks time add your new food to their old food increasing the amount of new every 3 days or so.
As far as raw a lot of people feel it is the best and relate the diet to those of wolves in the wild it is not rocket science. This diet does take more time so again it comes down to how much time and effort you are willing to go through.
I feed 2 meals a day and 1 meal is raw . By doing this I feel I get the best of both worlds and when I go on vacation nobody has to deal with raw foods for the week we are gone. hope that helps. just don't over think it to much.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not going to attempt to spell it out, because it just causes controversy. The one fact I find is, there are loads of opinions out there and by and large, everyone has pretty darn healthy dogs here. To keep your life simple, I truly believe that just settling on a great high-end grainless will yield you a really healthy dog. After that, I think we tend to be splitting hairs. For whatever it's worth, I've had great success (and peace of mind) feeding mostly dry grainless and supplementing with half a turkey neck or some ground beef or a few chicken livers, rotated in. Of three feedings a day, I'll make one of them a little less kibble and the raw meat. If I don't happen to have raw meat on a given day, I don't fret it and just feed the kibble. Otherwise it's just too much for me to want to hassle with and I know Max is getting fed really well. That's what I do.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

So is it the additives that make grain free not safe for puppies? (except Orijen) It can't be the protein levels because as I said RAW wouldn't make a lick of sense. Basically my end goal with Jake is to have him the closest thing I can get to RAW.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I would think that the closest (although nothing is truly the same) thing to raw is a high meat content canned food, like EVO red meat (95%). I say that because of the high meat and water content. That said, who wants to feed only canned?? Orijen is, imo, the closest of the dry kibbles... although most raw people will probably argue that there is no comparison. 

I remain comfortable with feeding one really good staple dry (orijen) as the constant and it's pretty easy to throw a 1/3lb of ground beef or a couple chicken livers in with it every few feedings. If you don't want to put anything raw at all in his bowl, buy boneless skinless chicken thighs (pretty cheap) and simmer them in water for about 30 minutes. You can chop them up, bag them in small single feed portions and keep some in the fridge and some in the freezer. That is, after you find out that he has no priblem with chicken! Otherwise, you could do the very same thing with beef, lamb or pork.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

again, is it the cal/phos levels that make other grain-free unsafe for pups?


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

I believe your science answer is in here several times.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...975-most-highly-recommended-puppy-food-s.html

As far as a kibble as close to raw as you can get is not happening. RAW IS RAW no kibble will compete with that. example...
Feed a dog crapy food then feed him a quality kibble and here are things that the eyes can see change.. less poop, firmer poop, change in color, richer color, eyes white and clear, shinny coat, more energy, just to name a few plus what benefits are going on ,on the inside.
Now feed raw.. less poop, cleaner teeth, colors even more rich, healthier coat just to name a few.
Kibble is kibble , raw is raw.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

LOL... ok, I don't buy the idea that any of the better foods we've been discussing are "unsafe" in any meaningful way. Unsafe just seems like a fairly gross overstatement. From what I understand, you want a food that has well under 2% cal, about 1.5-1.6ish. Phos should be balanced well at a .1/.2 over 1%. Again though, I suspect that there is quite some hair splitting happening. 

If you took 2 pups and raised one on orijen LBP and one on adult, everything else being equal, I'd bet the farm that both dogs would be in nearly equal health and condition.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

And in your opinion would that be true of EVO or other grainfree that are great quality?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

My only reservation about EVO is this certainty that everyone has that P&G is going to downgrade the formula. Not to beat a dead horse, but I am very impressed with Orijen because Max does so well on it and also because if their story can be believed, they really seem ultra quality oriented in a way that makes me happy.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I know you are you spokesperson for orijen BUT I'd like to find somewhere closer then 2 hours...

What others did you consider going grain free? top three?


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

There are tons of threads on this. I read the majority of them. There seem to be only one (and two from Acana, possibly.) grain-free foods suitable for Large Breed Puppies.

Orijen Large Breed Puppy: Puppy Large Analysis

And _possibly_ these two Acana(same manufacture as Orijen) flavors:
Acana Wild Prairie: Champion Petfoods | ACANA | Products - Puppy Small Breed
Acana Pacifica: Champion Petfoods | ACANA | Products - Puppy Small Breed

The main thing to look at is the Phos and Calcium levels. Staying close to 1% for each.

I am not sure about the other minerals and how they affect growth, but Calcium and Phos. seem to be the largest factors that affect speed of growth in a growing puppy (a GSD is generally considered a puppy until he/she is 12 to 18 months in age).

If you stick to Orijen LBP, you can be fairly certain that you are getting a good grainless food that is appropriate for your puppy. Feed a LBP food until 12-18 months.

--->Just read the mineral percentages stated by the manufacturer(Stay around 1% for cal and phos), and email them asking what the max *and* min calcium levels are if you are worried.

The other factor in speed of growth is calories consumed per day. Over feeding speeds growth rates also.

Hope I didn't give any false or inaccurate information!


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

BB Wilderness and TOTW high prairie wouldn't concern me at all. Both of those are so superior to most anything else out there. I always try to keep in mind that there are awesomely healthy dogs out there eating stuff that is not nearly as good.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Blue Buffalo Blue Wilderness

I feed my dog and my 3 cats this


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> I think I may be having a problem truly understanding the basic ideas of what is safe for a puppy.
> 
> Too much protein? Too much Calcium? Too much Phos? What is truly the MAX amount on this? I can't imagine there is a maximum amount on protein or RAW wouldn't be safe for pups either.
> 
> ...


Hi Renee

I know you have been struggling with choosing a diet. Though probably frustrating for you now, I do salute you for asking some tough questions. First, the issues with life stage feeding will vary by stage. In puppies during growth stage, protein, fat and minerals are vital. Higher protein levels of quality animal protein, higher levels of quality animal fats and the big issue, cal/phos ratio. Cal 1.0-1.8 and phos of 0.8-1.6 tend to be what I understand to be appropriate during the growth stage; it is this ratio that is very important. High protein levels are not only safe, but necessary. That is why a raw diet is safe for pups; it is in fact a biologically appropriate feeding model. Kibble is not as close to raw as you can get. But, if you look at it from a biological perspective, the grain free, high protein diets are closer to their genetic needs than other dry foods. 

In terms of your food choice, first there is no reason why you have to only go one way. You could choose to combine dry kibble with home prepared. It is unfortunate you cannot get your first choice (I thought I had read there was a provider closer than 2 hours, but I really don't recall it all that well). In the end, you seem a lot like I was over 2 years ago. I needed to understand biology, anatomy and science to make my decision. There is a lot of information available and the more you read the more you will trust your decisions. You must decide what is best for you based on science. For me, I chose Orijen LBP with home cooked and then once I had learned enough about digestion, bio availability and nutritional requirements, I transitioned to raw. 

Because you asked about raw also, here is an article by Ian Billinghurst, he is fighting back against a nutritionist (who makes her own interesting points) and though I don't agree with how he goes about it, he makes some points you may be interested in about why people choose raw. 

http://www.k9joy.com/dogarticles/TheRawTruth.pdf

Here is a link to AAFCO MINIMUM requirements for pups....does not show max. 

AAFCO Puppy Food Standards & Requirements


I also posted a great article on the comparative anatomy of digestion which takes an in depth look at the gut of carnivores, herbivores and omnivores if you were interested in looking from a more science based perspective.

I don't know if this will help you or not, but thought I would try.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

It really does....thank you...my thought is going grain free asap while I research RAW. And I am wondering if Jake is getting enough protein on BBAdult fish/potato...ya know?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

jakeandrenee said:


> And in your opinion would that be true of EVO or other grainfree that are great quality?


 
orijen large breed puppy and orijen adult have the same maximum Ca levels (1.7%), so i dont see that there would be much difference in the growth of a gsd pup on those.

no matter the quality of evo, instinct , core, etc...you wont see people feeding those to large breed pups because they dont make anything that has those controlled Ca levels.

i think you are torturing yourself with the idea that your pup must be on grain free food now. he will grow fine on any large breed puppy food or any adult food that does not have high Ca levels...overfeeding is what is important to avoid, of course, with any food. his genetics more than anything will determine how large he grows.

once he is over a year old, then your options as far as grainless foods will be wide open.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> It really does....thank you...my thought is going grain free asap while I research RAW. And I am wondering if Jake is getting enough protein on BBAdult fish/potato...ya know?


If he's doing well on BB and your main concern with that is protein, you just supplement with a little extra cooked or raw meat added. Pretty simple.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

pretty well yes, but itching and I won't wait a year to see if I can ease that...so the research goes on....


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

roxy84 said:


> orijen large breed puppy and orijen adult have the same maximum Ca levels (1.7%), so i dont see that there would be much difference in the growth of a gsd pup on those.
> 
> no matter the quality of evo, instinct , core, etc...you wont see people feeding those to large breed pups because they dont make anything that has those controlled Ca levels.
> 
> ...


^^^ This!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

jakeandrenee said:


> again, is it the cal/phos levels that make other grain-free unsafe for pups?


Yes - I would not go over 1.5 (max calcium) / 1 ( max phosphorus). I know Orijen is a little over that, but it's so close to 1.5 / 1 that it shouldn't be an issue. Anything more is too much. EVO is way too much. The people who used to make EVO will even tell you not to feed it to your puppy if you ask them.

It's not the protein that you need to be concerned with, it's the calcium.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

Relayer said:


> BB Wilderness and TOTW high prairie wouldn't concern me at all. .


i would just never feed those to a large breed pup. TOTW has the higher Ca levels. in fact, there was another thread last year about a couple breeders starting up with TOTW and having some growth issues with their pups that had never occurred before. 2%+ Ca is too high imo.

BLue Wilderness-i have emailed them numerous times. they have refused to give maximum Ca levels, stating they only use minimum numbers. i would not use this either without knowing that information.

i think it depends where a persons comfort level is......but, i look at wellness, whose most expensive product is Core, yet they warn against feeding this to large breed pups due to Ca levels that are the same as those in TOTW. now, wellness could do the same thing as TOTW, and label their Core as all life stages (as it meets the loose AAFCO standards for this)...and they could sell a whole lot more of their most expensive product, but they have taken a more responsible approach.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> pretty well yes, but itching and I won't wait a year to see if I can ease that...so the research goes on....


are u feeding the salmon/potatoe???....that's a little low on protein for me, even their large breed pup is better, but it is a little grain heavy. Their Wilderness is not specified for pups but it may be b/c they have not tested on pups. You can contact company and ask, also ask for max. cal/phos. If you are having allergy problems year round it is likely food is involved (unless specific environmental). You may seriously want to consider ordering Orijen LBP by mail like was mentioned n another post. It may save you the agony! You can switch to another when he is older.

ADD: didn't get the post of BB not disclosing max. levels till now...disregard if they won't share!


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> pretty well yes, but itching and I won't wait a year to see if I can ease that...so the research goes on....


I wonder if the Ticks that Jake had could cause itching. Or was the itching before the tick problem?


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

been itching since I got him....thats what made me switch off RC right away...


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

and yes, salmon/sweet potato and I think it's low, too!


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> and yes, salmon/sweet potato and I think it's low, too!


Give that boy some real meat, for goodness sake!!!


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I do...but with pudding poo I have stopped...


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> I do...but with pudding poo I have stopped...


That's weird, I see noticabely firmer poo when mine has meat. Maybe try a day of nothing but meat and see what come out? I did that a couple of days when he was not eating well and was quite astonished by the smaller size and firmness.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> I do...but with pudding poo I have stopped...


Like I and someone else mention in the other thread, the pudding poop could be from over-feeding. That's what happens to my pup when I tried to up his food intake. 

Remy is 15weeks and we feed 2.5 cups of Wellness LBP


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Relayer, Is it MM or RMB or OM when you substitute for kibble? How do you determine how much?


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## Konozis1 (Jun 17, 2010)

I am still feeding my 9wk old puppy TOTW high praerie...the breeder requires that or raw. Her dogs look great. I wonder if I mix kibble and raw...will the calcium levels be low enough?

Also, how do I know if I am over-feeding?, I think he eats about 6 cups of kibble a day.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

quote=jakeandrenee;1846962]Relayer, Is it MM or RMB or OM when you substitute for kibble? How do you determine how much?[/quote]
here is a link to three sample recipes for adding fresh food to kibble from Dr. Pitcairns. I would highly recommend that book to you, though his recipes contain cooked grains (though the three below do not), it is a very good read on diet but also on natural health. He has a website also.

http://www.homevet.com/petcare/documents/FreshFoodSupplement.pdf

Dr. Richard Pitcairn

It is generally recommended you can substitute up to 1/2 diet with fresh food when feeding kibble.

edit: sorry link fixed!


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

six cups??????????


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Konozis1 said:


> I am still feeding my 9wk old puppy TOTW high praerie...the breeder requires that or raw. Her dogs look great. I wonder if I mix kibble and raw...will the calcium levels be low enough?
> 
> Also, how do I know if I am over-feeding?, I think he eats about 6 cups of kibble a day.


PM sent


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Konozis1 said:


> I am still feeding my 9wk old puppy TOTW high praerie...the breeder requires that or raw. Her dogs look great. I wonder if I mix kibble and raw...will the calcium levels be low enough?
> 
> Also, how do I know if I am over-feeding?, I think he eats about 6 cups of kibble a day.


3-4 cups is what I fed Sin when he was a puppy. He ate 1 cup for morning, 1 at lunch and 1 at night but sometimes he got an extra

He is 15 months old now so he gets 2 cups in the morning and 2 cups at night


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> Relayer, Is it MM or RMB or OM when you substitute for kibble? How do you determine how much?


I do both, a bit more MM than RMB, because I do believe that the kibble already has plenty of calcium. Usually it's ground beef, chicken livers, turkey necks or sardines and I rotate them with a just one of those each day. The beef, liver and sardines are pretty easy and just go right in the bowl with a little kibble. The turkey neck gets dragged around and chewed (as you can imagine), but I find them much less messy and greasy than most any other RMB.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Konozis1 said:


> I am still feeding my 9wk old puppy TOTW high praerie...the breeder requires that or raw. Her dogs look great. I wonder if I mix kibble and raw...will the calcium levels be low enough?
> 
> Also, how do I know if I am over-feeding?, I think he eats about 6 cups of kibble a day.


As mentioned 6 cups is alot. No puppy should be eating that much.
As far as feeding raw don't mix kibble with raw feed separately


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> six cups??????????


I say, you watch the dog and his physique will tell you how much. Max eats about 4-5 cups of his plus the 1/3-1/2 lb of meat supplement each day and he is not fat by any stretch.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Hey Renee, did you get my post on your other topic about grainfree about Acana. I would definitely try that if you really think that he is having trouble with grain. The grainfree chicken flavor has appropriate Ca and Ph levels for the puppers. If you want to add in meat you want to add in balanced amount of meat and bone. So you could feed him breakfast and dinner as kibble, reduce his food amount by 25% and then feed him some turkey neck and some ground turkey for a later snack (you would want to feed him about 25% of his calculated amount to eat daily for raw)


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

ZAYDA said:


> As far as feeding raw don't mix kibble with raw feed separately


Most dogs will do fine with mixing the two. New studies on gastric emptying have shown different results than earlier studies which seemed to implicate drastically different digestion times. I have fed kibble/cooked and kibble/raw and no many people who still do.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

GSDSunshine said:


> Hey Renee, did you get my post on your other topic about grainfree about Acana. I would definitely try that if you really think that he is having trouble with grain. The grainfree chicken flavor has appropriate Ca and Ph levels for the puppers. If you want to add in meat you want to add in balanced amount of meat and bone. So you could feed him breakfast and dinner as kibble, reduce his food amount by 25% and then feed him some turkey neck and some ground turkey for a later snack (you would want to feed him about 25% of his calculated amount to eat daily for raw)


If Orijen is 2 hrs away, Acana probably is too, since it's the same company.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Kira I did thanks....about to research it now...and call around to see who may carry it...that would make 1 3/4 cup twice a day plus 1/2 cup raw?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Gib Laut said:


> Most dogs will do fine with mixing the two. New studies on gastric emptying have shown different results than earlier studies which seemed to implicate drastically different digestion times. I have fed kibble/cooked and kibble/raw and no many people who still do.


I think the no kibble mixed with raw thing is balderdash!


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Crap!!!!!!!!


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> Crap!!!!!!!!


LOL... what's the matter now?


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Relayer said:


> I think the no kibble mixed with raw thing is balderdash!


Good to know, I just know from another site several months ago when I was going to raw they said not to mix the two.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

they don't carry it either...so I have a decision to make....try shipping either one of those in or stay where I am and do some raw.....my freezer is FULL of knuckle bones....don't know where I will put it all...


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

ZAYDA said:


> Good to know, I just know from another site several months ago when I was going to raw they said not to mix the two.


if you need a review of the literature on gastric emptying, I can try to find the one I was referring to....was a common opinion for some time, but research has changed that....some vets even recommend mixing the two now....Pitcairns is one of them.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Did I get the math right on the RAW? I hate working in percentages which is a huge drawback going RAW.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> they don't carry it either...so I have a decision to make....try shipping either one of those in or stay where I am and do some raw.....my freezer is FULL of knuckle bones....don't know where I will put it all...


You don't need a freezer full to get started. Just pick up some extra ground beef fresh. If you refrigerate it, say a lb. you have three days of meat and it will easily stay fresh enough for a dog for that long or longer. I like to cook, so I go the grocery store about every three days anyway. I just pick up the amounts Max will need till I go back. Again, I also never fret it if I haven't gone and am out of meat, then it's just a rare kibble only day... no big deal.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Renee, did you check out the animal clinic that was listed on their website as carrying it? Phone number was 256-551-1111, its an animal hopsital. 

Raw doesn't work in cups, it goes by weight. Do you remember Jake's 8 wk weight? I can try to calculated how much MM and RMB he would get to supplement his diet. I just need his weight.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> Did I get the math right on the RAW? I hate working in percentages which is a huge drawback going RAW.


Our feeding goes pretty much like this:

a.m. 2 cups kibble
lunch 1/3-1/2 lb MM or RMB mixed with about 1/2 cup kibble
p.m. 2 cups kibble

If you're on pure raw, the math becomes more critical. With the kibble being the majority, it is not rocket science.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

i have it in his records...24.7pounds

Ok, I can do weight easier....I have a scale as well, I am a retired colorist and weigh my work...


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

GSDSunshine said:


> Renee, did you check out the animal clinic that was listed on their website as carrying it? Phone number was 256-551-1111, its an animal hopsital.
> 
> Raw doesn't work in cups, it goes by weight. Do you remember Jake's 8 wk weight? I can try to calculated how much MM and RMB he would get to supplement his diet. I just need his weight.


You have a calculator that takes into account mostly kibble as the primary food? I've seen strictly raw calculators, but not kibble plus raw. Please share it if so. Thanks.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

An example would be if Jake weighed 20 lbs at 8 weeks, he would eat 10% of that weight, So he would eat 2 lbs of meat a day. 15% of that would be 1/2 pound. You want to add in some bone, so a 50/50 mix would be good, and it would give him practice crunching bones. You want things to measure more accurately so he would be getting 8 oz (weight, not oz in a cup) and 4 oz would be something like a turkey neck, and 4 oz would be a MM, like ground beef, or ground turkey.

So if he eats 4 cups a day, you would then eat 3 cups of kibble a day, and then 8oz raw. You will need a small kitchen scale to weigh out the food. 

Breakfast: 1 1/2 cups kibble
Lunch: 8 oz raw
Dinner: 1 1/2 kibble


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

ok 24.7 pounds.... that would mean about 10 ounces of raw meat a day. plus his kibble.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

in the event you aren't doing raw (travel etc) do I feed more kibble?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> in the event you aren't doing raw (travel etc) do I feed more kibble?


In the words of Spock, "that would be logical."


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

yep, and he doesn't even have to get raw every day either, you could even do some days at half and half, say 3 days a week he gets a raw dinner or something. If depends on what you and your freezer can handle.


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## Konozis1 (Jun 17, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> six cups??????????


It isn't an exact amount. Sometimes he finishes his food, sometimes he doesn't. He isn't fat at all.

Anyone know if I can stay with TOTW if I cut out some kibble and add some raw, will the calcium be low enough then?

On dog food analysis site they say this for Orijin large breed puppy:

"The only caution we would make on this food is that the high protein content makes it suitable for adult dogs only, particularly in the case of large breeds."
Any comments?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Konozis1 said:


> It isn't an exact amount. Sometimes he finishes his food, sometimes he doesn't. He isn't fat at all.
> 
> Anyone know if I can stay with TOTW if I cut out some kibble and add some raw, will the calcium be low enough then?


You can control the cal by limiting the bone content in the raw you feed. More ground beef/pure meat (MM) and less turkey necks, marrow bones, etc. Imo, when kibble is the main food, you can be pretty free to add some meat within limits as a supplement.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Konozis1 said:


> "The only caution we would make on this food is that the high protein content makes it suitable for adult dogs only, particularly in the case of large breeds."
> Any comments?


too many to mention....I love that site EXCEPT for that statement!!! There is ample evidence that high protein in and of itself is NOT a cause for concern, even in large breed dogs.


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## Konozis1 (Jun 17, 2010)

Gib Laut said:


> too many to mention....I love that site EXCEPT for that statement!!! There is ample evidence that high protein in and of itself is NOT a cause for concern, even in large breed dogs.


That is exactly what I thought. Somewhere I read that protein, fat and carbohydrates can all be turned into simple sugars eventually.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Konozis1 said:


> That is exactly what I thought. Somewhere I read that protein, fat and carbohydrates can all be turned into simple sugars eventually.


dogs have the ability to hydrolyze fat and protein into glucose extremely efficiently; hence their ability to consume high protein and higher fat diets...their requirement for carbohydrates is not present because of this...humans have a tendency to utilize carbohydrates for the purpose of glucose which is why if we ate primarily meat and fat, we would suffer health consequences that our canine friends do not.


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## dakota20 (Jul 9, 2010)

Why does it seem that people are making feeding raw so difficult...it's super easy. Been feeding raw to my 3 month old since getting her. My breeder set me up with some sample menus, but I've been mixing all sorts of raw food...chicken, ground beef heart, livers, kidneys, lamb necks, turkey wings you name it. I do initially weigh the food when I put it into individual ziplocs, (I have individual servings of about 8 oz.) but if I'm off a little I don't worry. Also, I'm not weighing my dog all the time, I just look at her and can see if she needs a little more/less. IMO I'd forget about the kibble and feed only raw, then you really don't have to worry about Ca and Ph so much. Just make sure they get at least one meal with bone in it. For example, my pup got a nice size drumstick this morning, this afternoon she'll get some beef kidney, and tonite she'll get the chicken thigh that came with the drumstick she got in the morning. Meaty bones like lamb or turkey necks are awesome too when those sharp little teeth are hurtin'. Anyway just my 2 cents.


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## Superhero (May 15, 2010)

It is worth mentioning that even the best kibbles can lead to increased risk of bloat for a couple of hours after eating.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

BB Wilderness levels are stated on the bag: Cal 1.3% Pho 0.9%


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> BB Wilderness levels are stated on the bag: Cal 1.3% Pho 0.9%


those are the minimum Ca levels. i canT remeber anymore what the max levels are, but my recollection is around 2%.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

My goodness this thread sounds like a math class.  I was just skimming over it and my brain is sizzling. 

I am not a big fan of puppy food. Only dog I ever feed puppy kibble had bouts of Pano throughout the months that I fed it which cleared up as soon as I went back off of it. 

My preferred feeding of young dogs is to feed 3X a day up to about 5-6 mths old and then 2X a day for life. Sometimes the older guys go back to 2 main meals with a midday snack.

I don't like kibble with corn and I would prefer to feed 100% raw but life gets in the way sometimes. Currently I have two dogs on a mix of kibble and raw and one dog on kibble only. I never worried about feeding all kibble one meal, all raw one meal, or a combination. I've never had a problem with my dogs on this issue. I don't feed canned dog food. For raw I feed meat or fish/ meaty bones/ hearts & livers/ a little yougurt/ raw egg with shell/ and sometimes some cooked veggies and either raw or cooked fruit. 

My dogs don't eat bread or pasta, hot dogs or luncheon meat, or people snacks. They never get "doggie" treats but pieces of cheese or meat. A couple of times a year they will get a small dish of vanilla ice cream. For Christmas they get a couple of bites of ham.


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