# Local anesthesia?



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

This is a switch-asking about local anesthesia instead of worrying about a dog being under!

Nina has an odd looking bump/sore on her side. It doesn't look quite like her other sores. I am hoping it just looks different because of location and that it is just deep pyoderma. Anyway, she's getting it removed/taken care of on Tuesday. 

We are sending the biopsy to Cornell to the dermatologist there instead of the place we send it (where they called it histiocytosis, which almost killed her due to treatment differences) because I don't think we'd trust that report! 

Jokingly, I asked if they could do local and he said yeah. Huh. Anything to be concerned about with that? I am going to ask, I think, about getting wide margins and if they can do that under local. 

Also going to have them do bloodwork too. I was thinking of having a chest x-ray done, but may wait for the results before getting that. She had one in December/January that was good. 

Anything else?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

How long would the procedure last? Wouldn't you have to give her a sedative or tranquilizer (like Ace) as well? Or would she really just like there while the procedure went on and on? 

I WOULD do a chest xray to rule out heart/lung issues. 

Zamboni has that weird eyelashes growing out of her lid thing that beagles get (I can't remember the official name right now). I've thought about doing a local with a light sedative. But we'd be able to laser it, which literally means a couple minutes. I'm not a fan of sedatives for seniors, especially if they have any heart issues. Does Nina? 

Anesthesia lightens the load on the heart (then they bring it back up slowly). So, if heart issues are an issue, anesthesia might be a better option. In that case, I would look to bring in a board-certified vet anesthesiologist. This way, the surgeon does the surgeon _quickly_, while Nina is being monitored by another veterinarian (not a tech). The veterinarian isn't switching back and forth. So the surgery goes faster.

Ok, I didn't answer your question about a local. I never seem to answer your questions directly, do I?







I try.









Sorry.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I would be worried about doing a lot of cutting under a local. My first GSD was barking at a truck coming in the drive way and both he and the truck slipped on ice and he got a cut on his back from the bumper. Of course it was a Sunday, so call my 24 hour number for the Vet, drive in and drop my dog off. The Vet called me a few hours later and gave me the update, she said she had to knock him out because the area was so bruised he twitched even while under it was so sore. So it would depend if I would be comfortable with a local.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomHow long would the procedure last? Wouldn't you have to give her a sedative or tranquilizer (like Ace) as well? Or would she really just like there while the procedure went on and on?
> 
> I WOULD do a chest xray to rule out heart/lung issues.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Val, that is what I was wondering. I usually bring a list in with me of concerns, so I will be able to include that I am fine with them using propofol as always if the local isn't going to be enough. I guess they can tell if it's not!!! THAT is good to know. 

Now, as to you, 3K9Mom









I am not sure about length of time or if it's more of a biopsy or what, exactly. Nina has gone from being very reactive at the vet office to really seeming to like it there! She stood without restraint for her side being shaved today-such a good girl. The tech mentioned something about that quick out and under stuff-I don't know what it is, but saw them use it on my psycho killer cat that they are afraid of for a blood draw (and I am afraid of her too unless she is being cowtowed to). OPTIONS making me nervous!

She did just have one-chest x-ray, in January, but I may have them do one just in case. Would that show anything about her heart-much?

Entropian! I think. 

Nina has no known heart issues. I should have them listen in before surgery. She's there almost every three weeks so some of the routine stuff we don't do. She is also now on thyroid meds. And tramadol. And elavil. Oooh. I should take her off the last two on what? Sunday? 

We don't have any anesthesiologists 'round these parts.







They use propofol though at my request. They also use all the monitors and the tech that I believe will be helping is Nina's very own personal tech. Well, it seems that way! 

She had a biopsy last summer and that was the first time I had ever had her under anesthesia. Reading about anesthesia:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1478&articleid=981


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Crap! Couldn't edit. Maybe they use isoflorine...I am going to have to look on an old bill. I can't remember all these science things!

http://www.research.cornell.edu/care/documents/SOPs/CARE104.pdf
Dog Anesthesia

Anesthesia
Q: Is it true that the anesthesia procedure is the riskiest part of surgery? How safe are anesthetics used in veterinary medicine?
http://www.petnews.com/clinicroom6.html

Another:
http://www.petstyle.com/dog/health_well_article.aspx?id=494&section=health

Okay, I am done. Worry clock turned off for the night.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> OPTIONS making me nervous!


So, I shouldn't say another word? 

Ah, I hear I'm "mean" that way.









How old is Miss Nina? 

A chest xray will rule out heart and lung issues. Depending on her age, that would give me a great deal of comfort at not too much cost. I take my seniors in for full bloodwork and exams every six months because I think that things change so fast on seniors. So if the last xray was in Jan, well that's about 5 months ago. Normally, I wouldn't put her through the radiation. But if we're looking at surgery. I don't know, it's up to you. As you know, I side so much on the side of caution, that it borders on paranoid. 

Is your vet a surgeon or is this your regular vet? Since you can't get a anesthesiologist (which are really hard to find here too. The closest one has to come in from Canada. Sigh!), can you get a board-certified surgeon? They move FAST in surgeries just because that's pretty much all they do. Time is our friend, my friend. The less time under, the less anesthesia. And I do kind of trust a surgeon more to get a lump out with super clean margins. Plus, their techs are more of specialists in anesthesia . 

Has Nina had surgery before? Both my surgeons (dental and regular surgeon) say that the best predictor of how a dog will deal with anesthesia is how she's experienced it in the past. If she's never had any problems with it before, then that's an excellent sign. If she comes out of it fast, recovers quickly, no issues, then no problemo. If she tends to have issues, then I'd be more nervous. 

Personally, I wouldn't take my dog off any meds until I asked my vet first. The thyroid medicine, I'd be inclined to leave her on. I don't really see a reason to take her off. The tramadol? Eh, depends on the dose, depends how sedating it is on her. Depends on everything else (her bloodwork, heart, lungs, etc). Can she go a day or two without it? (Have you ever missed doses and you know what she's like when she does?) Same with the elavil (which honestly, I don't know anything about)? 

A dog that's in pain going INTO surgery is going to be more stressed than one that isn't. Your vet will be able to tell you which meds that he would prefer that you don't give before the surgery. There may be some that he absolutely doesn't want her to have. In between "prefer not" and "absolutely not," you know what Nina *needs.* Yep, that's one of those dang options again. 

Ooof. I know you have so much on your mind. Sorry to load more there. 

That's what I do best. Just stuff to consider. Anything for Miss Nina.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

One more thing -- both my surgeons tell me -- they both SWEAR that anesthesia these days is so much safer than it used to be even 5-10 years ago. I start getting twitchy as soon as we start talking surgery, and both give me the "calm down, compared to the old anesthesia, this stuff is great. Really great."

If it's so great, they should use it on me when I get so twitchy. Maybe that would convince me. It doesn't. But they are good honest reliable guys. I trust them both completely. 

And they're highly experienced board-certified specialists. 

And I've never had anything but perfect results in the many surgeries they've done for me.

(I don't just trust because people are nice!) 

If it weren't for that dang twitch I get....

So that's something you should know.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Definitely mean.









Miss Nina is 11.5 years this week.







And looking snazzy with her thyroid enhanced fur. I have a few days to go back and forth on the x-ray. And I will. Like a ping pong ball! 

I would say he's just our regular vet, but this is the guy that did Kramer's bloat/torsion/tumor surgery, so he's no regular vet.







He actually did all of that in 80 minutes. AND I found out today that the tumor was actually ready to bleed out-as in, when he touched it, it would ooze out blood. But the surgery itself was relatively dry. So I guess that first part means that the tumor was truly hours or days away from taking Kramer and that bloat/torsion was a blessing. 

The thyroid is good-I do need to double check though-I know it can do stuff to the heartrate-the elavil is an every other day drug, and I need to check on the tramadol since it's a narcotic lite. Glad I posted-it helps to get me all organized. Plus I think her supplements are fine. No flea or HW until after we are done. I guess she might not make her grooming appt. either if there are stitches (end of month for that). 

Yes-she had her spay surgery before I got her, but she was 7 and that is a lot more complicated then and she must have done okay (no bleeding disorders) and she had the biopsy (plus dental, plus hip and chest x-rays) last summer and was defintely okay for that. I agree-that does seem to help. 

And I have to agree that the anesthesia is safer, the monitoring equipment better, and like that article says dogs are more at risk by not having surgery that will help them than they are for being harmed by the anesthesia. But-we all know that things can happen in any big or little surgery, so, we worry!

Jeesh-you are mean-when I posted I was more worried about the results of the biopsy that we are going to get than the surgery itself. Now I am worried about both!







As it should be!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I can't answer your question - sorry. I know Kelly has had a lot of problems recently with any type of invasive procedure but he's the only dog I've ever had to have such a problem.

Wishing you and Nina my best and will be keeping my fingers crossed that there's no problem.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks, Gayle. 

I had honestly not heard of doing a local on a dog-I don't know why-I just never thought it was possible. Of course, I pretty much think that when I find out surgeries they do on people with a local.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Ok, I thought you had gotten off the computer for the night. What's up with that? If I knew you were still rummaging around the internet, I would have waited to post, so you didn't have all this banging around your brain all night. 

As for the biopsy, there is absolutely no sense worrying about what that will show. First, and most of all, you can't do a darn thing about it. I prefer to only worry/obsess/panic over things that I have to make decisions about. The whole options thing.









Second, are there any other lumps or tumors that your doctor has noticed and is concerned about, anywhere? No? Then ok. This is one "lumpy thing" (as I like to call the thing that Zamboni is sporting on her foot). Let's not make a mountain out of a mole. 

(Yes, this could just be a very overgrown mole. At least, go with that theory for now!)

One thing at a time. Pre-surgery consult. Then surgery. Then recovery. And biopsy results. You're jumping way ahead of yourself. So stop. Everything in order. Bring your lists and a pen. 

Deep cleansing breaths. 

Ahhhh...Feel better? 

Yep. That's what I'm here for.


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## srfd44-2 (May 20, 2004)

Regular anesthesia should be fine as long as they did pre-surgical bloodwork first. This tests to see if they can handle the anesthesia. Any type of mass removal should be done while the dog is totally under. Good luck.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think I am just going to worry about making the anesthesia cookies.









She will definitely have bloodwork done-time for that anyway. 

I should take a picture of it and post it. 

It COULD BE one of her sores. Plus Dr. Scott is going to be looking at it-that makes me feel better. 

She's been so peppy lately-it's been great to watch her run out of the house every morning and just keep running! I even took her (I tend to keep her in a bubble because of her infections) to the dog food store and she had a great time being nosy-it's in Rochester, so she got to see a little bit of city action. I think she'd like a window on a busy sidewalk here-but there aren't any! Plus she got her Munchkin.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

When is surgery scheduled for? 

Then I'll worry for you, and you can relax. I promise, I'll worry as much, if not more, than you will. It's Nina, after all.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am of absolutely no use in this department but I did want to wish you and Nina well on Tuesday! And I hope the cookies come out ok (sorrry, can't help with that question either!).


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Oh, Thanks Ruth. Tuesday. Making mental note to self: Tuesday, Lori. Tuesday. 

Have a good weekend Jean & Nina! No worries!


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Jean, Buddy had an odd looking growth about half way down his back on his spine. It was about 1/2 inch long and strange enough the vet agreed it should be biopsied. 

They gave him a local and used a laser to remove it. Fortunately, it came back negative for malignancy.

Buddy was none the worse for wear - the smell of singed fur got to me a little though.









Good luck whatever you decide.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You guys are the best-thank you. I am making up my list right now. I am also asking them to lump check her while she is out either way-it's easier than me trying to grab at her while she is spinning around like a little top. She's hilarious-my mother was trying to pet her today and she just kept flipping-she *Nina* has really gotten a personality and with the energy she has now-it's great to see. 

You know, I took a picture of it and it looks...not so bad...BUT...my concern is that she was an outdoor dog for 7 years and exposed to (I would guess) a lot of sun. So off it goes. 

I don't think my vet office has a laser. I keep my pets going there they soon will-don't we all think like that!







We see something new and think mmmph, I paid for that!

So tomorrow morning Bruno and I will drop off Nina and the cookies before 8 am. Then I am going to keep myself busy with some errands and work.







Seperation anxiety!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

We'll be thinking of you. Get a good night's sleep. Pacing will just keep Nina awake as well.







And she needs her rest. 

Talk to you tomorrow!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Saying prayers and thinking positive thoughts for Nina's procedure!!!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN...
> I don't think my vet office has a laser. I keep my pets going there they soon will-don't we all think like that!
> 
> 
> ...










I do this too!!! I always remind my vet that the Hooligans and I built half her new hospital


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

One of my previous bosses had a vasectomy under a local. But at least he could converse and be reassured during the process. BTW, he does not recommend it for this particular procedure.







as only a woman can chortle!!

How did Nina do?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks! 

Bruno and I dropped her (and the cookies) off this morning. She went right back like a good girl. Over the past year has decided she likes all those people a lot-which makes such a difference. They all feel comfortable petting her and giving her affection now and she enjoys it. 

I gave them my list of thoughts and questions and then oh so OCD made sure I mentioned it about 5 times to all of them...

SO now I am going to go do some stuff for work and distract myself. My gosh-it's just a lump thing and not a heart transplant! But-when it's your dog, it is just as big, I guess. 

Thanks again! I can call after 3:00.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Jean, deep breath, deep breath and another. Nina has changed so much that she will be fine at the Vet's office. You can only change or help the things that are in your control to do so. So now we will just out the good vibes for Nina and wait to hear back from you on what the Vet said.

Hey if you need things to keep yourself busy you can come to my house. The last few days have been, I am tired of all this stuff, so yesterday I attacked, yes attacked the bedroom. Three big bags to the dumpster and 2 bags full of cloths for Goodwill and I didn't even get to the stuff hanging in the closet. Now I have two more walk-in closets to do in the other bedrooms. I love it when I get in these moods.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Hey Val, what was up with this weekend? The back of my SUV is filled with stuff to drop off at St Vincent de Paul, and I still have more stuff in the garage to sort through.

There you go, Jean. It's sort-and-donate week at germanshepherds.com. Get to it. Nothing keeps your mind busy like cleaning out closets.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I don't know, maybe it is all the stuff on TV about people lossing everything from floods that got me to decide to sort - donate or toss.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

You're more noble than me. 

I'm puppy-proofing the house. Anything that can't go 3' off the floor (or higher) gets donated or tossed. 

But I've worked in insurance claims for a zillion years, so I tend to see everything as "just stuff." anyhow. Plus, my parents, sister, and aunt all lost their homes in wildfires a few years ago (my whole hometown burned). It really hits home that it's just stuff. Either use it or give it to someone who will.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That's a good idea. I love to get rid of stuff. I would like to have one of those modern looking interiors where there is nothing but functional things (and pets) (and pet hair). 

Val-are things getting better out there with all the flooding?

Puppy proofing? Did I miss something?

I did computer stuff today-getting programs and things installed-so I was pretty distracted (in an annoying way).









Nina's vet called around noon to tell me that they were done and things had gone very well-under local!!! He said she twitched twice and just layed there so quietly with two of the techs petting, hugging and talking to her. She has changed SO much-I am so glad for her to be able to enjoy people and be so sweet all the time (unless she has ice cubes-then she is **** on wheels-don't bother her).







He said it is pretty unusual to have a dog that you can do that on (there anyway). She's getting some nice pain meds and I can pick her up after 4:00.

They got the whole thing and are sending the whole thing to Cornell so they can look at the edges. Stitches out in 10-14 days and tonight resting in her bed. 

I am excited to go get her-she'll probably be a little woozy, I am sure. 

Thanks for all the good thoughts and I will update when they get the biopsy results back for sure.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

3K9Mom, not noble, practical and just can't see the stuff laying around when someone else could use it.

Jean, didn't have problems where I live, but west of me over by the Fox river and south west of me by the Rock river, some places the river hasn't crested yet, some places it has and is receeding, so it is heading down stream so some people are still going to have problems.

There is a shortage of dumpsters for people cleaning up. I can't imagine the friggin mess.

Jean glad to hear that Nina sweetie did well under the local. I don't think she will be woozy, maybe wobbly depending on where the shot numbed. Just like when you go to the dentist.

Jean, How is the new computer coming along.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Jean, I drive down and pick her up next Monday, so no official "It's a Girl!" announcements yet. But it's only us regulars in here, right?

(The photos aren't very good. Very squirmy little pup!







)

http://www.dogster.com/dogs/798224


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

And I'm glad that Nina-bean is doing well. I'm not surprised. Are they feeding her anesthesia cookies???? Those would keep me very calm, almost sedated, as well!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Val-I've been watching it on the news, but since it's not local, it's not covered of course-and so I watch for it on the cable news-it is really scary-the whole of it. 

A wobbly Nina! Awwww...

Thanks- with the computer stuff I decided to get Office 07, which I had a trial for and liked-I need it for work anyway-break down and get the new stuff. I get it home and cannot open the package! The kid said that it took him 15 minutes and I thought what is wrong with that kid (not having seen the package yet)? Now I sit here looking at these two boxes trying to figure out how to get into it!







Any tips?

I am thinking I may leave it on the floor and let Ava the monkey dog open it for me.









We won't tell anyone we've seen one of the cutest beagle puppies ever on this thread.







They are so sweet-I had one growing up. She is beautiful. 

I bet they didn't give her one! The cookies were gone at noon when he called. So I got her a little ice cream for when she's able to have it. 

I am going to go get her now! THANKS!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

The office 07 is it a plastic box thingy with one rounded corner?

If yes, There is a clear seal at the Top, you need to cut that on the seams on the box. There should be a little red plastic tab on the top, hold the box with the tab away from you, gently pull the red tab towards you.

The CD's should be label 1 - ??.

Val


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Ya come for the dogs, you stay for the people!!!







Thanks, Val! Huh-no force involved!

Nina is home. She is resting and a little loopy from the sedative and then the pain killer. She looks good and is very pleasant. She refused to go out to potty and just wanted to get in her bed. Reminded me of when you are traveling and cannot wait to get in that hotel room. She's good at holding it, but I am using layers just in case! 

It was a larger incision than I pictured. But it looks good. Everyone (dogs) wants to see it, so I am keeping them away from her until she can deal with them-maybe Thursday!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

So glad to hear your sleepy girl is doing so well have the procedure!!! Give her an extra hug or two from me and the Hooligans!!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am glad she is home. I would bet that she is really tired from the surgery under local and the sedative. DeeDee is also the queen of holding it, when she says she HAS to go you better believe her.

Auntie Val sends good healing thoughts.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Aww! Don't they seem so vulnerable when they are all wobbly. I always think "Did I do the right thing?" when I see them like that. Then, when they recover, it is all forgotten. Hugs to you and Nina.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Good girl Nina!









Heal fast! Lots of love from all of us, 

Love, 
Camper (the Beagle Master) and his crew


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Jean, has the pathology report come back yet?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Thanks! Miss Nina has been getting back to normal-whatever that is for any of us! She ran around a bit this morning so that was good to see. Her stitches look good. 

I love a wobbly dog-there is nothing sweeter. I tossed a vitamin in her bowl and she looked it at like..."Dude, wow, what is that?" Once she got a good night's sleep she was fine-and I did get her out at about 1 am to potty.









No report back yet-I am thinking it might take a little longer because it went to Dr. Scott? I don't know why I think that...

Thanks all for thinking of her!


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

Waiting for those results.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Can't you make the lab go any faster??


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

The vet just called-I let it go to voice mail because I didn't want to do it live (as Bill O'Reilly might say). 

It is just one of her furunculosis folliculitis things. 

Whew. That report came from the pathology lab at Cornell-now they are sending it to the dermatologist. 

I am going to take her to get her stitches out today and pick up some Baytril and a Rx so will see if there is any more information. 

So good for Nina!








@ the lab result dominatrix!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

GOOD NEWS!!!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

That's my girl Nina! Good result! This was the EASIEST procedure ever, right Jean?!?!?! (her internet friend says with the perspective of hindsight!)


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