# Opinions? Experience?



## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm talking to a somewhat local breeder about possibly doing a co-own with a female that they have and they have suggested this girl:

UKC CH, DM CLEAR Viernheimi Ranie

She would be a working prospect and we would be showing her in Obedience and working on getting a few more titles under her. What do you think about her pedigree? Do you have any experience with any of the dogs in her pedigree or dogs of similar lines? What are half show line half working line dogs like in general?


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Why would a dog want to be 'owned' by two or more individuals?

I appologize, but I can't wrap my head around this arrangement.

A GSD is a one-human dog. He will tolerate and be freindly to others, but there is only one he will truly bond with and be friends forever.

Maybe I'm not seeing this from your point of view.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The mother line brings in a lot of drive through several lines to Fero including Nick.  I like to see Nick close up in a pedigree because he just seems to bring in so much power. I cannot tell you anything about the sires lines as I am unfamiliar with Show lines. I have seen the combos work well but I have also seen the combos create dogs with a lot of drive coupled with some nerve issues. I hope others will chime in to give you some more information on this particular combo.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

robk said:


> The mother line brings in a lot of drive through several lines to Fero including Nick. I like to see Nick close up in a pedigree because he just seems to bring in so much power. I cannot tell you anything about the sires lines as I am unfamiliar with Show lines. I have seen the combos work well but I have also seen the combos create dogs with a lot of drive coupled with some nerve issues. I hope others will chime in to give you some more information on this particular combo.



Thank you for at least giving some helpful information.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

MichaelE said:


> Why would a dog want to be 'owned' by two or more individuals?
> 
> I appologize, but I can't wrap my head around this arrangement.
> 
> ...


Technically the dog will have two "owners" listed on paper. She will be living with me and I will be taking care of her and bonding with her and what not but she will also still technically and legally be owned by the both of us. I have seen lots of reputable breeders do this with people that they trust. This breeder in particular wants to free up some room but doesn't necessarily want to sell this girl completely outright. No need to apologize, just some people have been unaware of this co-owning thing. Lots of show homes do this.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I see. Thank you for the explanation.

What happens if/when he wants to take possesion of the dog? What happens if he never wants to?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That doesn't happen unless things went way south.
It's a way to own the dog (legally) without having it right _in_ your home.
It also gives the other party a chance to own/show/breed the dog without as much expense up front. 

bethany. correct me if I'm wrong


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> That doesn't happen unless things went way south.
> It's a way to own the dog (legally) without having it right _in_ your home.
> It also gives the other party a chance to own/show/breed the dog without as much expense up front.
> 
> bethany. correct me if I'm wrong


You are entirely correct. Sorry if my explanation wasn't all that good. We are wanting to get into doing some obedience and maybe some tracking work. Basically just showing in whatever venue she excels at lol. We get the expense of taking care of her (food, water, shelter, vet care) without having to pay an arm and a leg to own her outright. Usually, there is a contract stating the stipulations, etc etc to protect both parties and this co-own will be no different. We will have a contract outlining the rights and responsibilities of each party and we will both sign it and have copies of it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd do it in a heartbeat, but if I start down that road it'll be Dachshunds.

That said, I'd do it in a heartbeat


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This dog would be a show/working cross. I once knew a son of Brend Viernheimi, a similar type of pedigree. Seems this kennel does work with show/working crosses. He was a sharp, civil dog (due to the type of training he received overseas, I was told) but biddable and loyal to his owner.

If you have a chance to co-own this dog just to gain experience through training, working, and trialing, I would go for it! At the very worst, it will be an incredibly rich experience for you.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I don't think I could do that.

I either own the dog outright as my companion/working dog, or I have no interest in him/her at all.

Just my way of thinking.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> If you have a chance to co-own this dog just to gain experience through training, working, and trialing, I would go for it! At the very worst, it will be an incredibly rich experience for you.


This!

MichaelE, it is a very good way to get your foot in the door into the world of showing and breeding (and probably working too). 

Of course you build a relationship with a breeder first :thumbup:


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> This!
> 
> MichaelE, it is a very good way to get your foot in the door into the world of showing and breeding (and probably working too).
> 
> Of course you build a relationship with a breeder first :thumbup:


Absolutely! Both of my dogs are co-owned (by me and her two breeders). I never would've been able to afford a show puppy otherwise. The whole arrangement is a win-win for all of us. It's very common in the show world.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would pass . 
What obligations are there placed upon you.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I would pass .
> What obligations are there placed upon you.


I provide her with food, water, a place to stay and any vet care that she may need. But, she's up to date on her shots and dewormings and gets her monthly heartworm preventative, so the only thing I should need to take her to our vet for would be a check-up and to get her heartworm preventative. I get your typical dog owning expenses, but when we go to show her the breeder would be responsible for paying entry fees and such. 

I am at least going to meet the dog tomorrow afternoon and at least see if she would be something that I would consider co-owning and if I like her. I visited Viernheimi Kennel's webpage and looked at this girl's dad and half siblings and watched videos of them working. So far I like what I have seen of the siblings by both her dad and the ones related to her from her mom. She's already earned her UKC conformation championship when she was just 6 months old and it was the first few times that she had been in the ring and it was against older dogs that had been doing this a while. So, in my opinion, that speaks volumes about this girl's temperament if she was that stable in her temperament and that mature mentally at 6 months. I've seen a few 6 month old puppies that wouldn't have held still in the ring for handling if their life depended on it. So, I'm at least checking her out and visiting with her tomorrow and if all goes well and I like the contract and such, I'll be co-owning her!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I am familiar with the breeder you plan to co-own with. What exactly were your requirements for a mentor? There are far more knowledgeable people in the show/sport world that you could affiliate yourself with. Yes, even in KY - though you seem to constantly repeat otherwise. In fact, in your other thread, several breeders and clubs were recommended, but I see you've chosen to disregard that advice. 

The breeders have never put a working title (a real working title) on a dog. There are no actual SV or AKC show ratings on any of the breeding dogs. Out of 10 dogs, they only have one CGC title amongst all of them. Sorry to say this, but UKC show titles don't have any real weight and mean nothing to most serious work/show people - a decent dog with practice can point. DM Clear is not a title or point of recognition - a bare minimum health requirement and a contested test at that. This is a pet breeder to say it in the nicest way. 

So if your plan is to affiliate yourself with a pet breeder AND do the leg work for them by taking care of their dog, my biggest question is...what is in it for you? 

I have co-owned before, but with a fairly well-established show breeder that breeder/handler owned/trained dogs. I gained valuable insight and experience in the show/work world. I got fantastic training and learned the day to day requirements for work/show dogs. What experience will a pet breeder be able to offer you in this aspect? Be very careful with co-ownerships - more often than not, they turn sour and the dog loses out in the end.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I am familiar with the breeder you plan to co-own with. What exactly were your requirements for a mentor? There are far more knowledgeable people in the show/sport world that you could affiliate yourself with. Yes, even in KY - though you seem to constantly repeat otherwise. In fact, in your other thread, several breeders and clubs were recommended, but I see you've chosen to disregard that advice.
> 
> The breeders have never put a working title (a real working title) on a dog. There are no actual SV or AKC show ratings on any of the breeding dogs. Out of 10 dogs, they only have one CGC title amongst all of them. Sorry to say this, but UKC show titles don't have any real weight and mean nothing to most serious work/show people - a decent dog with practice can point. DM Clear is not a title or point of recognition - a bare minimum health requirement and a contested test at that. This is a pet breeder to say it in the nicest way.
> 
> ...


To answer your biggest question, I gain show experience and experience working with different bloodlines and types of dogs. I appreciate your opinion of the breeder, but that's not what I was asking for people's opinions about. I asked for opinions on _this_ dog and her lines. Not everyone chooses to go with the AKC show ring route and not everyone wants to do the exact same thing. The reason I love this breed of dog is that it can do it all and there is no reason to limit yourself to _only_ doing working titles and events. Now with that being said, they aren't just sitting at home and doing nothing with their dogs. They do title them and show them, just not in the venue that you'd like to see them titled and shown in. So, what? I'm not looking for a dog to co-own with a Sch3 title or to even get that title with a dog. 

And as far as clubs and breeders that were recommended in my other thread, I am planning on joining one of the Louisville training clubs as that is the closest city to me that offers a training club. I'm not going to drive over an hour away one way just to participate in a schutzhund training club if that isn't exactly what I'm wanting to do with this dog. And as for the breeders that were recommended, yes they are all nice breeders of top notch working dogs that I could never afford right now. So, this is my way of getting involved within the breed and I just don't understand why you're so quick to judge me and knock me for getting involved when there are _so_ many more problems within this breed and so many more people just sitting behind their computer desks at home that are truly doing nothing at all with the breed.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I am asking you the same questions I would ask of myself. Your initial goal and line of questioning was regarding becoming a responsible breeder. Then you wanted to show and train once you were able to get info on how to go about breeding good dogs - this is perfectly fine, but I am seriously wondering WHY this breeder and this dog if those are your goals? What about researching bloodlines, doing the leg work, finding a good breeder that backs up their breedings with the necessary work/show input into the dogs, saving up for said puppy, and learning with that puppy? 

But you don't really gain "show" experience that you could gain by yourself with your OWN dog. UKC is very open to newcomers - you would have no problem practicing and pointing your OWN dog. 

I mentioned both AKC and SV - the avenues that carry actual weight where you could get serious show experience.

No - there is no reason to limit yourself. But if you plan to find a mentor and take advice from someone, why not do it with someone with experience and achievements in the venues you plan to participate in?

What work titles do the dogs have? What show titles (not UKC) have they put on their dogs? Do they keep and title dogs out of their own breedings - I do not see any evidence of this. Nearly the entire kennel is imports - what can they offer you in terms of preserving and maintaining bloodlines? 

If you cannot afford a "top notch working dog", why not save up and do it right? Cutting corners is not the way to go. Train with the best, learn from the best, and you will succeed as well. I am confused why you take this route... 

Judging you? Nah, I don't care or know enough about you to make any judgement call on you. I am asking the questions I would ask of ANYONE and certainly of myself if I was planning something like this. No need to get defensive, I am telling you what I observe and know. If you choose to disregard that, no skin off my back and good luck in your endeavors!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

MichaelE said:


> I don't think I could do that.
> 
> I either own the dog outright as my companion/working dog, or I have no interest in him/her at all.
> 
> Just my way of thinking.


I didn't think I could either but I've co-owned three dogs in my life (JR, Ringer and Honey). I didn't have a written contract since this was done with good friends, but if I were to co-own a dog again, all the arrangements would be written by a lawyer or someone experienced in this type of arrangement and signed by both parties. 

FWIW, my original deal with JR was I was his caretaker ... I only became his co-owner when he almost died and needed emergency surgery and I had a hard time contacting his owners to get their consent. Ringer and Honey were always co-owned from the time I got them (my friends picked the puppies out and they lived with me). All three lived "happily ever after" as my beloved pets ... and I'm still friends with the people who gave them to me.

But on the other hand you have to be careful ... I wouldn't co-own a dead cockroach with Bruiser's breeder ... she was a bold faced liar who defrauded me.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I'd also agree that I would find a more successful breeder - or if money is the issue, I would look for a rescue with a good temperament to learn with. There are lots of very nice GSD's in shelters. Sure, you couldn't breed, but there's no rush to start breeding (especially if money is the issue!).

I currently co-own 2 dogs (one GSD and one JRT), I was going to share my experience, but it sounds like your mind is pretty much made up on the issue.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why dis UKC? It is a legitimate organization and people do put work into their dogs to title/show. They try to show the total dog, workability as well.
AKC isn't the be all end all in the dog world.
Taken from the UKC site: http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/WebPages/AboutUKC
_Established in 1898, the United Kennel Club is the largest all-breed performance-dog registry in the world, registering dogs from all 50 states and 25 foreign countries. More than 60 percent of its 15,000 annually licensed events are tests of hunting ability, training and instinct. UKC prides itself on its family-oriented, friendly, educational events. The UKC has supported the "Total Dog" philosophy through its events and programs for over a century. As a departure from registries that place emphasis on a dog’s looks, UKC events are designed for dogs that look and perform equally well._


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

As far as getting a rescue to learn with, I've already got one rescue. She's not registered and I'm wanting something registered with lines behind it that way I know to an extent what to deal with and pretty much what to expect. So, I wouldn't consider another rescue. Also, if I wanted a puppy and to deal with the puppy issues then I would have gotten the solid black DDR line pup that I previously asked about. The breeder hasn't been breeding for too long, and they are the closest breeder that at least even does any type of work period with their dogs and even health test them in the least. In my own opinion this is going to be a pretty good place to start out with, without me having to drive over two hours one way. I don't want something that will only be good for one thing. If this girl turns out to only be a pretty conformation show dog and couldn't do obedience and possibly other venues then I won't even consider co-owning because it isn't something that I would be interested in. As far as learning about the breed, like I said. I've got my rescue girl, Sheba. She was my first dog that was actually my sole responsibility. Growing up, my parents had a few unpapered GSD's that we worked around the farm. I have a pretty good base knowledge of the breed. What I'm looking to gain experience from is showing. I did contact one other breeder in the state and they didn't want to part with any of their adult dogs and wanted me to pay $1,500 for a working line puppy out of parents that weren't health tested AT ALL and they didn't even train their dogs. There are MUCH worse choices for me to have gone with and much more expensive choices for me to go with. For me to just get my feet wet in the show world, I don't want to start out with something that has so much drive that I would have to have a behaviorist come into my home to work with the dog and have a special trainer. I want something easy going enough that I can work with myself and something that is already out of the adolescent puppy stage. That is just my personal preferences and I did not post this thread for people to be telling me what I should do and what I shouldn't do. *I asked for people's opinions or personal experiences with these particular lines or similar crosses and what they were like. If you can't offer any valid information as to what I asked for, why would you come on to a thread and completely turn it in a different direction talking about how good of a breeder someone is? I didn't ask for people's opinions on the breeder. I already know the breeder and realize they aren't the best breeders out there. I don't expect to find that here. 

*It just gets rather annoying when the same people comment unrelated comments on every thread that I post asking for opinions on the lines of certain dogs. It's really beginning to turn me off to posting anything at all on this board anymore. I'm not saying I won't post things again, because I probably will. I just don't want unrelated posts being posted on my thread. If it isn't contributing to my knowledge of what I asked about specifically, it doesn't belong here.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The original purpose of this thread was input into the pedigree of the dog under consideration. I agree with the op that the other points raised are not relevant to the question. I tried to give some input in to the actual pedigree in my first response. Going back to this original question. I think that caution and careful evaluation should be made in taking on a show/working line cross. The drive that the bottom line brings in needs to be supported by solid nerve in the top line. I do not know anything about the show lines in the top of the pedigree. I can say, however that I have seen some of these type crosses yield very nervy dogs. Other people use these crosses very successfully because they know the lines well and the breedings are very carefully thought out.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

robk said:


> The original purpose of this thread was input into the pedigree of the dog under consideration. I agree with the op that the other points raised are not relevant to the question. I tried to give some input in to the actual pedigree in my first response. Going back to this original question. I think that caution and careful evaluation should be made in taking on a show/working line cross. The drive that the bottom line brings in needs to be supported by solid nerve in the top line. I do not know anything about the show lines in the top of the pedigree. I can say, however that I have seen some of these type crosses yield very nervy dogs. Other people use these crosses very successfully because they know the lines well and the breedings are very carefully thought out.



Thank you very much for your relevant information. This will be taken into consideration. However, I've been watching some videos of half siblings from both the sire and the dam and I've liked what I've seen so far. Nothing's set in stone as of yet and I'm waiting until I meet her tomorrow to make my final decision.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If nothing else, you'll learn. And a dog with 'issues' really teaches the handler compared to a dog that is an easy keeper.
If this puppy doesn't turn out to be breed worthy, there is nothing lost other than time...and you'll know soon enough if the dog is temperamentally, physically sound to stay in their program.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am not "up" on the lines (tho I've heard of them) but will say this..I have co owned a couple of dogs (one being my aussie)..I paid full price but the breeder wanted her name on the papers as well..I had no problem with it, as I have an ironclad contract that basically is 'her name is on the registration only',,everything else is my doing, responsibility, and my choice..

Co owns can be a good thing, or can be a nightmare. If you do this (and I think she's a lovely girl make sure you get what YOU want in writing. 

I would also, pay for all entry fees if it meant the co owner was on the reg in 'name only'.. but that's up to you.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I am not "up" on the lines (tho I've heard of them) but will say this..I have co owned a couple of dogs (one being my aussie)..I paid full price but the breeder wanted her name on the papers as well..I had no problem with it, as I have an ironclad contract that basically is 'her name is on the registration only',,everything else is my doing, responsibility, and my choice..
> 
> Co owns can be a good thing, or can be a nightmare. If you do this (and I think she's a lovely girl make sure you get what YOU want in writing.
> 
> I would also, pay for all entry fees if it meant the co owner was on the reg in 'name only'.. but that's up to you.


Thank you for the advice. I will make sure to thoroughly read through the contract before I sign anything. If I don't totally 100% agree with what's in it, I'll ask for it to be re-written before I sign anything.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

So, I absolutely fell in love with Ranie today when I spent some time with her. I actually spent the majority of the afternoon with Katie (the breeder) and Ranie. Ranie is so sweet and so laid back with awesome house manners and has great basic obedience. But, at the same time she has some crazy ball drive and loves to play tug. I'm amazed at the off switch that she has. She can go from crazy ball driven girl running around and very active to this awesome, laid back great house dog. We also discussed in great detail the co-ownership contract. I am, of course, responsible for paying for her food, providing her with shelter, any kind of basic care expenses, and we will both share the expense of getting her hips/elbows OFA certified. Ranie will actually be turning two years old on the 17th of this month, so we will be working on getting her hips/elbows certified. She already has had her DM test which came back clear, I got to see her SV paperwork and the paperwork where she was exported from Hungary. I was also given her AKC paperwork today with it completed by Katie and I'll be listed as the co-owner on her AKC papers. I'll be taking some pictures of her tomorrow and posting them on a separate thread about her. She did have an accident a while back with her ear where the very tip of it was ripped off. Katie said that she was in a yard by herself for a while and when she checked on her the tip was gone. It doesn't affect her beauty any at all and I still love her regardless. Just wanted to let you guys know that all went extremely well and I'm completely satisfied.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Look forward to the new thread about her!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'm so happy and excited for you


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## Umm Mohamed (Nov 25, 2012)

ز يش


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com App


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she sounds GREAT! There are tons of possibilities in AKC venues so you can try whatever you want and rack up those titles)

Definitely want to see pictures of her Congrats and good luck!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Post pictures!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Bethany then what can YOU possibly learn or gain . 
If you are referring to myself as thread changer , or others, do know that the advise given was looking out for you .-- "* I didn't ask for people's opinions on the breeder. I already know the breeder and realize they aren't the best breeders out there"*


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

My sentiments as well Carmen...but she's gotten the dog and plans on going ahead with it so at this point....so I wish her luck and hope she can use this as a learning experience.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I did not want to continue in the bolded text so started over again. 

I have seen so many co-owns end up in acromonius law suits -- people being held hostage because one of the owners will not co-operate and sign their portion of a litter application, dogs dying , being lost - injured and then being sued for lost earning potential - seems a frequent topic on the old Judge Judy .

the dog got its championship at UKC - that , there, or elsewhere does not necessarily comment on her excellence but on the lack of quality of those dogs which were her competition.
I would be hard pressed to say that this dog could win a championship in the AKC show ring or SV show ring. 

you gain experience through variety. Want to show , go as an apprentice getting young pups out to sanctioned matches so that the pups can get experience. Want to train , go and sit in on many schutzhund training clubs and AKC trials and church basement training for pet dogs .

hands on - variety -- mentoring - the magazines I sent you, experienced people on the forum , questions and questions , check and cross reference -- 

I know it is a fait accompli - but it is recent and there is "remorse" which can free you from a contract --


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Carmen, I figure since it is a fait accompli, this will be a learning experience no matter how you look at it. I started out with a tough green dog, and glad I did, I figure, she taught me more than if I had started with an easy one and "then" went to a tough one but to each his own..I wish her luck


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Carmen, I figure since it is a fait accompli, this will be a learning experience no matter how you look at it. I started out with a tough green dog, and glad I did, I figure, she taught me more than if I had started with an easy one and "then" went to a tough one but to each his own..I wish her luck


Ohhhh, I thought it was a co-own to breed, but to train - that is good. 

If you were going to breed a dog you would want to do as Carmspack and gbottchu said. Because the number of "pet" breeders in KY must be astronomical.

ETA: WOW, you weren't kidding about her ear.  Well, actually, it's more than the tip. Yeah, I am going to say that there is more of a story to that.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

carmspack said:


> the dog got its championship at UKC - that , there, or elsewhere does not necessarily comment on her excellence but on the lack of quality of those dogs which were her competition.


Oh I didn't realize that participating in UKC should be taken *against* a dog! I've worked my butt off showing my dogs in UKC. There is often a large range of quality but where I live there are plenty of really nice dogs in the ring (UKC headquarters are an hour away). Finishing a dog with GRCH is no easy task especially when you *don't* have the option of paying someone to show your dog (thus the dog is being placed for what it is, and not who you got to show it). Are you actively showing your dogs in UKC?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no but I did handle for other people in CKC , AKC - all breed, CKC specialty, and SV style.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OK then please do not put down other people's dogs for doing something you don't participate in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think some people(not saying Carmen) think UKC is similar to the CKC in the US. A 'fake' registry or something.
Personally I'd rather participate and give my $ to UKC than AKC events.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think UKC stuff is cool. I think its great that they don't allow professional handlers and its a much more "laid back" atmosphere. I haven't done any events but its because they're so hard to find outside of certain states (mainly Michigan). And although the competition may be tough in Michigan, I'll be excited to see how it's like in Wisconsin...found a show in the beginning of February I'll try my hand at.

UKC is also much less "line biased" from what I've heard. I think working lines stand a chance there but that might be due to the lack of competition. They also did institute a "temperament test" for GSD's that if the judge notices any kind of fear stuff or just general unwanted behavior they can dismiss that dog.

I do believe that the UKC is the "minor leagues" of the show world. But it has less to do with the dogs and more to do with the prestige the AKC has built up for itself. AKC is considered the one "true" registry in the United States and AKC champion puppies go for big bucks...but AKC championships also cost big bucks and from what I've been seeing lately are just as hard to come by due to the 2 major requirement. I do question how a dog/bitch is able to get a championship before the age of 6 months though...kind of crazy, and kind of demeans the title in my opinion. I mean, how can you really know what kind of dog you have at 6 months of age?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jean I think Bethany said, and correct me if I'm wrong, she wants to title her in 'whatever',,so a bonus the dog is akc reg'd, she can do all kinds of stuff if she chooses. Which I think can only add to what the dog already has.

I know alot of people who show their dogs in UKC, may not be as "big" as AKC, but I think any title gained is an accomplishment to be proud of.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I think some people(not saying Carmen) think UKC is similar to the CKC in the US. A 'fake' registry or something.
> Personally I'd rather participate and give my $ to UKC than AKC events.



That seems to be the general impression that I get as well. However, I think that UKC is a great starting point for many people. At least they can get a chance to get out there and do something constructive with their dogs rather than just sit on the sidelines and pay a professional with a big name in AKC to win with their dogs just because they are a professional. I do plan to do just about everything that I can with Ranie. At least what we find that she actually enjoys doing.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> I think UKC stuff is cool. I think its great that they don't allow professional handlers and its a much more "laid back" atmosphere. I haven't done any events but its because they're so hard to find outside of certain states (mainly Michigan). And although the competition may be tough in Michigan, I'll be excited to see how it's like in Wisconsin...found a show in the beginning of February I'll try my hand at.
> 
> UKC is also much less "line biased" from what I've heard. I think working lines stand a chance there but that might be due to the lack of competition. They also did institute a "temperament test" for GSD's that if the judge notices any kind of fear stuff or just general unwanted behavior they can dismiss that dog.
> 
> I do believe that the UKC is the "minor leagues" of the show world. But it has less to do with the dogs and more to do with the prestige the AKC has built up for itself. AKC is considered the one "true" registry in the United States and AKC champion puppies go for big bucks...but AKC championships also cost big bucks and from what I've been seeing lately are just as hard to come by due to the 2 major requirement. I do question how a dog/bitch is able to get a championship before the age of 6 months though...kind of crazy, and kind of demeans the title in my opinion. I mean, how can you really know what kind of dog you have at 6 months of age?



Honestly I think you have to think of a GRCH as closer to an AKC CH if you're trying to compare the two. I've been showing my dog in UKC since he was 4 months, he is now 4 years and is only 1/5 of the way to his GRCH (granted I haven't shown him regularly). People compare UKC to other venues to put it down. I don't get that? UKC is UKC. If it's not your game, no biggy, but it has existed for over 100 years and is not some BYB designer dog registry. 

Most of the handlers I show against in UKC have decades of experience handling and exhibiting dogs, so it is not a novice ring, but at least my dog will get a look whereas I don't even bother entering AKC events other than matches. I've had to show my dog in the breed ring against a GRCH multi BIS winner so if that's not valid ring experience I don't know what is.

You cannot get a U-CH before 6 months of age, not sure where you're getting that from. The dog can enter Novice Puppy which is an NLC class; no wins or points are awarded.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

carmspack said:


> the dog got its championship at UKC - that , there, or elsewhere does not necessarily comment on her excellence but on the lack of quality of those dogs which were her competition.


You know that how? From being there at every show where the dog won??

Or are you basing your opinion on a SINGLE PICTURE of the dog??



> I would be hard pressed to say that this dog could win a championship in the AKC show ring or SV show ring.


Again - based one a single picture?

Oh, PA-lease!!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

martemchik said:


> I do believe that the UKC is the "minor leagues" of the show world. But it has less to do with the dogs and more to do with the prestige the AKC has built up for itself.


With AKC, if you have enough $$$ you can take a crappy dog, buy a top handler and get a title.

That won't work in UKC. The dog wins based on IT'S merits - not the 2 legged thing at the other end of the leash.


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