# Looking for a breeder in/close to Virginia



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I have found a couple, but they are not a place I would purchase from.
I would rather not have to go to another state, as I want to be able to do many visits before even deciding if I want to buy from the kennel/breeder.
I won't even be considering a new pup for many months to come, but I want to be in close contact with a reputable breeder until I'm ready.
Our 14 year old GS is doing good, she has her bad days, but is still running (slow motion







)and swimming after her ball, eating like a GSD, and has her spats of trying to wrestle with us. 
And even if she were young or gone, I am not ready anyway, our gorgeous pittie had to be put down, which I blame on bad genetics and breeding. 

If anyone knows of a good breeder in Va/MAYBE NC, please post.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Preference of type (American, Euro show, working)?

Goals or planned activities with the dog (SchH, agility, obedience, herding, companion, etc...)?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildPreference of type (American, Euro show, working)?
> 
> Goals or planned activities with the dog (SchH, agility, obedience, herding, companion, etc...)?


Oh duh









I'd prefer working lines.
Possible, SchH... and of course obedience, and also family companion.
I do not care about the color or coat type, it's the soul that makes a dog.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Some in Ohio could be considered, as we visit there a few times a year. In the Youngstown area.


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## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

check your pm


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

I bought Nara from Dina and Mark Engel in VA Beach. All of their pups are champion West German working bloodlines. If you search on this site for my pic posts, you'll see what Nara looks like. Not sure if they have pups available now, but it seems like they do often enough. Check their site for pics and contact info at http://www.gspuppies.com. 

Since we're both in Hampton, we should keep in touch. I'm a new GSD owner, and you're obviously pretty experienced. I would love to learn from you if you'd let me. Thanks!


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: counterI bought Nara from Dina and Mark Engel in VA Beach. All of their pups are champion West German working bloodlines. http://www.gspuppies.com.



Just to let you know, the Engels are breeding show lines, not work lines.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomJust to let you know, the Engels are breeding show lines, not work lines.


O ok. They told me Nara's parents, Ninja and Jax, were West German working bloodlines. Is it possible they have some litters of show lines and some of working lines? I remember being excited and reassured, since GSDs are working dogs, and Nara was from working bloodlines. I had no intention on showing her, so I was glad she wasn't from show lines. I don't think they lied to me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: counter
> 
> O ok. They told me Nara's parents, Ninja and Jax, were West German working bloodlines. Is it possible they have some litters of show lines and some of working lines? I remember being excited and reassured, since GSDs are working dogs, and Nara was from working bloodlines. I had no intention on showing her, so I was glad she wasn't from show lines. I don't think they lied to me.


Sorry to disappoint, but both Jax and Ninja are 100% German show lines. Absolutely no working lines in those pedigrees.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

They are 100% showlines. Not working lines.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: counter
> ...


So maybe I was confused. O well, Nara's perfect, no matter what lines she's from. Haha! I'm not working her yet, but when we move, we're getting her invovled with herding, tracking, SAR, cadaver, carting, and SchH. So in our own little way, she'll be my working dog, especially once we get our farm and some sheep! Ha!!!

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

Do any of you know the Engels in person? Are you pulling your info straight from their site, or do you have experience with them? If you do, can you please PM me? Thanks!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just looked up the pedigrees on the pedigree database. All of the dogs and kennels listed in those pedigrees are pure show lines. Don't know the breeders at all.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Counter, just curious did you see hip/certifications on your dogs parents? 

I have never met them in person, but do know of them and know of 2 dogs from their kennel.

Working lines, show lines, whatever.... as long as you are happy with your dog, that is all that matters!


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## gspuppies (Apr 30, 2009)

Kevin, I recieved an email from a woman I don't know that told me we were being mentioned on this forum. I didn't even know this site existed until about 30 minutes ago. All our dogs are show and working lines. The person that said they are only show is totally wrong. They probably aren't familiar with Schutzund, but if you look at the pedigree on the German database, thats all the proof you need. Hope all is well. Marc


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

Marc,

Welcome to this forum...great site and very experienced people here. With all due respect to you, could you please tell us which kennels you are referring to as working kennels. I see W. German high lines, no working kennels in your pedigrees.

Thanks so much,
Connie


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## gspuppies (Apr 30, 2009)

Hey Connie, thanks for the welcome in. Our Jax must be related to Puck. I haven't checked the database lately, but it makes sense as he has Grafental. My wife, Dina, is the GSD person in the family, so I'm speaking with a whole lot less knowledge than she, and she's totally crashed out! The dog mentioned..Nara, her mother is Ninja Von Windmill Engels Star. Ninjas grandad is VA1 Ursus Von Batu. Jax, Naras dad, was fathered by Laras Vom Grafental, a schutzund 3. Am I wrong by stating that the many schutzund titles found in the pedigrees of both dogs, qualify them as "working"? Both parents came from Windmill Kennels in West Palm Beach FL. I believe her stock came from Mittelwest. If I'm off-base here, I'm gonna wake up Dina!! Please tell me I'm correct. LOL Marc


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The dogs may have working titles, but they are show lines.

All dogs shown under the SV system must have a working title to achieve their ratings, but show lines with working titles are still show lines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Actually, those commenting on the bloodlines are for the most part VERY familiar with schutzhund.









As the others have said, SchH titles does not make a dog "working lines". In Germany, all breeding stock must have a SchH or herding title, thus all working and show lines will have these.

Whether a dog is working or show lines is dependent on the actual bloodlines. The bloodlines off all these dogs are 100% German SHOW lines, there are no working lines there.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gspuppies Our Jax must be related to Puck. I haven't checked the database lately, but it makes sense as he has Grafental.


Actually they aren't related at all. The Grafental in Jax's pedigree is all show lines. Whereas Connie's Puck is East German (DDR), a subset of working lines. Sometimes the same kennel will breed different lines, as is the case here.


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## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

Chris, what would a person looking at a pedigree ,look for if a Schh title doesnt make them a working line, in other words more to the point what would tell you they are show with Schh titles. Is it the SG, CGC, IPO V,VA,that makes them working, as there seams to be no simple way to sort out info given by breeders for a newbie.Could you sort it out in simple terms?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's the lines/dogs/kennels that tell you. VA, V, SG, VP etc are show titles but plenty of working dogs have them. The more you look at dogs and pedigrees, the easier it will be to know.

In general, if you are looking at a black and red dog with a mask and a saddle and he was born in the past 20 years, you are probably looking at a show dog. There are a handful of sable show dogs, very few though, I can name the ones being used for breeding and I'm not even that great with pedigrees/dogs.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Pedigrees are something you learn over a period of time... can't give you any real shortcuts. Other than the looks which are completely obvious once you know the difference, the other way you can tell for the most part though (there are exceptions when they mix the lines) is If the pedigree has a VA in the first few generations, you can be sure it is show lines. There have been no VA work dogs in many many generations.

If there is a dog you are interested in, just post a pedigree and someone on the board can tell you, and I am sure will be more than happy to do so!


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I was going to give an example when I looked at the pedigree of your Jaguar and on the motherline I see one of those mixes between show and work!!! LOL 









I met Jaguars grandsire - Jaguar von der Mäusespitz. Nice dog. And thru Minka you have some of the well known working lines.


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## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

I think I get it now my sire is from Jaguar Von Der Mausespitz,**** is from Xillo Vom Kreuzbaum full of V on both sides, so show dogs are what they are?


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Can't tell ANYTHING about your dogs sire.

Mother Savanna is 50% show and 50% work.

Fahter:Jaguar vd Mausepitz is showlines 
Mother: Minka is worklines. 

If you follow the generations back, can you see the difference?


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## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

ok so Minka has Schh, but no V rating, and jag show, making him a mix of both is that the read or no?


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

No, Jaguar M. is 100% showlines though he has working <u>titles</u>.

Minka is 100% working<u> lines.</u>

In Germany, if dogs are bred according to the SV standards, they must have working<u> titles</u>, but that doesn't mean they are working lines. 

Working lines and Showlines are <u>BLOODLINES</u>, nothing to do with Schutzhund titles. Does that make sense?

I am not much of a writer or explainer!!
Where is Chris, she explains these things better!!! LOL


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## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

Sorry Its me who is not clear, he is my sire not Jag M ,my sire was named Jag after M. Jag M show, Minka working making my sire a mix of both. Thanks for your help it was a pleasure


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

When you say "my sire" do you mean your male Jaguar v Wolfnase? you are confusing me a bit by that term... LOL

Jaguar v wolfnase:

On the top(father) *HORATIO ALI * I can't tell you anything as far as worklines or showlines. Looks like several generations of American pet breedings maybe.

On the bottom (mother)* Savanna Vom Eichen Hugel* is half and half. 

****************
As far as the V?

The show ratings in front of a dogs name are given to any dog in a show. They are VA, V, SG, and G. 

Most Showline dogs are VA or V. 

Most work dogs are SG or G and more and more you are seeing V, but never a VA. This has nothing to do with Schutzhund. 

Working titles are seen after the dogs name. Although you may see someone say a dog was V in trial... which is certainly going to confuse you. Don't pay attention to that.







too much information!


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## gspuppies (Apr 30, 2009)

Show lines with working titles? It sounds quite contradictory when you say they're strictly show lines. Our dogs are unlimited to both show and work, as we are currently having our Admiral working towards getting his Sch 1 title, tracking, obedience and protection WORK, though we do not show him. His grandfather is also Ursus Von Batu. The Sieger shows do show confirmation but also T.O.P. as well, which are just as important as confirmation.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

_"""Show lines with working titles? It sounds quite contradictory when you say they're strictly show lines. Our dogs are unlimited to both show and work, as we are currently having our Admiral working towards getting his Sch 1 title, tracking, obedience and protection WORK, though we do not show him. His grandfather is also Ursus Von Batu. The Sieger shows do show confirmation but also T.O.P. as well, which are just as important as confirmation."""
_

I would probably wait and let your wife post.... since you stated that she is the one with the knowledge of GSD's and lines.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

again, you have to know pedigrees, ursus is showlines thru and thru.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

A friend who has Am lines and I recently had this discussion. She and her husband were convinced that black and red dogs are working lines because they have a Schutzhund title. 

The thing to keep in mind is a schutzhund title, does not a working line dog make

However, there are showline dogs who are working dogs (not working-line). Years ago I met a very nice black and red, showline male who patroled for the police department.


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## gspuppies (Apr 30, 2009)

Kevin, go to the German database and post a comment like the one you posted here. I'd be interested in seeing the responses you get from the experts on the German lines. If you get the same responses as I've seen here, than I'll be the 1st one to admit I'm wrong. TTYL Marc


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

who is kevin?

if you're referring to the post above yours, basically whole thing is accurate (don't know about the patrol part, heard of pd's using showlines, have yet to see any in my area)


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## gspuppies (Apr 30, 2009)

Kevin is the person whom metioned our name Vom Engels in a few previous posts on here. Scroll back to page 1


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I believe Kevin is Counter



Showlines and worklines have a place. Not putting the showlines down. I used to have a super nice SchH3 showbitch, that LOVED to work and was one tough cookie. BUT!! BUTT!! just cause she liked to work, it didn't make her a workingline dog. 

For someone looking to get a GSD, for a pet person, I wouldn't automatically expect them to know, or even have much interest in the lines.... 
but
I sure as heck would hope that any breeder breeding GSD's, would knew the difference in the lines!!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm confused. I went to Vom Engels German Shepherds site and I see show line dogs.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Correct, I am not Kevin, Counter is.

This is the dog I referenced... http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/354897.html
It was quite a few years ago (dog served in Ohio I believe) but even looking back he seemed like a very nice dog.

Again, I think a lot of people new to schutzhund dogs, mistake schutzhund titles as equivalent to working-lines. 
Here is another showline litter advertised as working lines....
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/79571.html


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gspuppiesKevin, go to the German database and post a comment like the one you posted here. I'd be interested in seeing the responses you get from the experts on the German lines. If you get the same responses as I've seen here, than I'll be the 1st one to admit I'm wrong. TTYL Marc


done!


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: gspuppiesKevin, go to the German database and post a comment like the one you posted here. I'd be interested in seeing the responses you get from the experts on the German lines. If you get the same responses as I've seen here, than I'll be the 1st one to admit I'm wrong. TTYL Marc
> ...





Your name isn't Kevin!!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gspuppiesShow lines with working titles? It sounds quite contradictory when you say they're strictly show lines. Our dogs are unlimited to both show and work, as we are currently having our Admiral working towards getting his Sch 1 title, tracking, obedience and protection WORK, though we do not show him. His grandfather is also Ursus Von Batu. The Sieger shows do show confirmation but also T.O.P. as well, which are just as important as confirmation.


To think that a SchH title indicates a dog is a working line dog is a very common mistake, yet a mistake nonetheless. It is the bloodlines and ancestry that determines if a dog is show lines or working lines, not it's titles.

If someone puts a SchH title on an American show line GSD, it is STILL an American show line GSD not a working line GSD. If someone puts a SchH title on a Labrador Retriever (yes, it's happened) it's still a Lab, not a working line GSD.

Many people very knowledgeable about bloodlines and working titles have posted in this thread and have all posted the exact same (and accurate) information. I really don't understand why there is still confusion or refusal to accept simple facts.











> Originally Posted By: gspuppiesKevin, go to the German database and post a comment like the one you posted here. I'd be interested in seeing the responses you get from the experts on the German lines.


If you don't think anyone here is an expert in German lines (and in fact many such people have posted in this thread) and want further confirmation of what we are all saying than by all means, posting a simple "are these working or show lines" thread on PDB may be helpful.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomYour name isn't Kevin!!!


doesn't have to be to get opinions, since we're all wrong on this board.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gspuppiesHey Connie, thanks for the welcome in. Our Jax must be related to Puck. I haven't checked the database lately, but it makes sense as he has Grafental. My wife, Dina, is the GSD person in the family, so I'm speaking with a whole lot less knowledge than she, and she's totally crashed out! The dog mentioned..Nara, her mother is Ninja Von Windmill Engels Star. Ninjas grandad is VA1 Ursus Von Batu. Jax, Naras dad, was fathered by Laras Vom Grafental, a schutzund 3. Am I wrong by stating that the many schutzund titles found in the pedigrees of both dogs, qualify them as "working"? Both parents came from Windmill Kennels in West Palm Beach FL. I believe her stock came from Mittelwest. If I'm off-base here, I'm gonna wake up Dina!! Please tell me I'm correct. LOL Marc


I am not sure how V Laras vom Gräfental (listed as your Jax sire) ended up with the Gräfental name since he isn't from the Gräfental lines. He is NOT related to Connie's Puck. Well they are sort related since all Shepherds are but I would suspect you would need to go back more than 30 years (probably further) to find common dogs. I would suspect that V Laras vom Gräfental kennel name might be a typo on the database. 

V Laras vom Gräfental is 100% show LINE which doesn't make a dog any more a show dog than a SCH title makes a dog a working DOG. 

Link to Jax Pedigree 



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: gspuppies Our Jax must be related to Puck. I haven't checked the database lately, but it makes sense as he has Grafental.
> ...


I didn't think Grafental's kennel was anything other than DDR lined dogs.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Jax's sire listed as Laras, not the same grafetal kennel. http://www.infodog.com/RESULTS/brdrsl.htm?evno=2005021303&bno=68300

Breeder is listed in the above link. You can google her name from above, US kennel with showlines here in Florida. So looks like someone though of using the name when it has nothing to do with the real grafental kennel.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Correct me if I am wrong... but, I think anyone can register the name of their pup to include Grafental on their dogs AKC papers if they want. They could Batu or Wildsteigerland or anything else as long as it is not a AKC recognized kennel name.

Seems pretty dag-gone shady to me.... but whatever.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree, but I guess that's what some people need to do to sell puppies? don't know. 

General consensus so far over on PDB is showlines too. Never would've thought that ! NOT


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only Grafental I'm really familiar with is the DDR lines too.

I just threw out that some kennels breed different sets of lines as an example of how this sort of situation could happen. Really don't know in this case, though a kennel just "stealing" another's name is of course another possible explanation.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Went a searching when I saw the above dog had an SZ# and I learned something new today! Grafental Kennel also does showlines now! I've only associated them with the DDR dogs.... 

Consensus on the database??? no way... LOL never in the history of the database has that happened before










I should leave this alone and actually find some work to do....


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

pssst. check the link I posted, then google. Sadly it is the case. I'll never understand why people do that.

Me thinks PDB is wrong as the dog listed was bred here in the US and not in Germany. 

and so far it's a consensus, boy have to mark the calendar, lol


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WJax's sire listed as Laras, not the same grafetal kennel. http://www.infodog.com/RESULTS/brdrsl.htm?evno=2005021303&bno=68300
> 
> Breeder is listed in the above link. You can google her name from above, US kennel with showlines here in Florida.


oh and a closer link:
http://classifieds2.breedersclub.net/german_shepherds_dogs_puppies_and_stud_service-o11791.html

I see on PDB sven and gotz who are working lines, so I assume those are from grafental kennels. Have no idea regarding the maifeld lines, except that I doubt it's the real grafental ddr kennel.


So again, showlines, NOT working lines. Hopefully others who read this thread realize to ask questions and ask more questions when trying to determine working versus showlines.


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks Chris for your post on Puck...Angela, amarug, too. I did not answer this last night as I would have been furious if someone were to waken me for this...I am sure Marc's wife is no different. Puck is not at all related to this male, Laras Grafental. Now all that aside....it is difficult to know what Grafental has not having a website...one has to trust contacts overseas. It is my understanding that Berend has incorporated a few show line dogs in his breeding program, though I don't think he combines the two. Anrebri has done the same, but Renata does not combine the two. Anyone can use any kennel name with AKC...I had a client that had bought a pup prior to mine a few years ago who used the Anrebri kennel to name his pup. He was starting out and did not know the *rules* of the road. To his credit, he paid to change it with AKC and fixed it on the PDB. Hope this helps.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I know this is kinda off subject, But Connie I was wondering if this dog is related to your puck? http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/399831.html


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> I am not sure how V Laras vom Gräfental (listed as your Jax sire) ended up with the Gräfental name since he isn't from the Gräfental lines. He is NOT related to Connie's Puck. Well they are sort related since all Shepherds are but I would suspect you would need to go back more than 30 years (probably further) to find common dogs. I would suspect that V Laras vom Gräfental kennel name might be a typo on the database.


Laras is 100% showlines and his pedigree is correct. The L litter and K litters vom Gräfental both born in 1999 used this same sire. The K litter was a cross with a working line bitch and the L litter was 100% showlines.


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

The short answer is no, though they come from the same kennel. On the top side...nothing and I would have to research the bottom side of Ernie to know where there might be some linebreeding.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Ok thanks, I was just wondering.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Thanks for clearing that up Lisa!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

They are also on the SV CD, but from what everyone else is writing this is NOT the German Gräfental kennels.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthThey are also on the SV CD, but from what everyone else is writing this is NOT the German Gräfental kennels.


I couldn't determine that either... So, can someone else in Germany be using the kennel name? I am very confused ?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Laras has an SV registration number and not the number they give to dogs registered through the USA program. That tells me he is from a German litter and not one born here.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Yea, I got that much, what I was really wondering is if this was the same Grafental kennel. I emailed 2 people to ask and one person who said yes, they breed both now, then later other said no they are still breeding only work dogs. I was really wondering if the SV allowed 2 kennels to use the same name??? I wouldn't THinK so... but <shrug>


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

This Laras dog has a Sz number and HDZW of 108 per the SV website. Berend has been breeding show dogs, from my information, for several years, though it wasn't common knowledge. I am fairly certain this dog comes from his kennel and that there is only one Grafental kennel in Germany.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

This whole thread really emphasizes the need for a buyer to do some heavy research on the different lines before buying a GSD. I too was fooled at first by all the Sch. titles on showline dogs but it didn't take long to learn to tell the difference just by a picture.


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

It also reinforces the fact that people breeding dogs need to do their research. It is up to buyers to know and understand what they want and up to us to know what we have so we can provide just that.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gspuppies The person that said they are only show is totally wrong. They probably aren't familiar with Schutzund, but if you look at the pedigree on the German database, thats all the proof you need. Hope all is well. Marc











Marc,

Feel free to check our site as well as Google Gabor. 40 years of hands on selection, training, handling and competing from local to work level? K9 instructor,handler for the Military? Yup, think he does know dogs and schutzhund. 








He knows working lines. I know a lot of the show lines as well, in addition to the working lines, as a lot of people on this board do.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

gspuppies - There is a distinct split in the European GSD - working lines and show or high lines. For serious afficiandos - just scanning a pedigree or seeing a few photos allows identification of the "types" 

Working lines are in majority SG in conformation, with many going G and a small percentage going V - the majority are sable - then bi-color, blacks and some black and tans. Show/highlines are black and red/tan/brown - with the exception of a very very very few sables - and those are usually light washy/pattern sables....

Most who are regulars here understand the SV *system* - working titles and show ratings and KKL are REQUIRED of both types for breeding and producing regular or pink papered pups. 

Urus Batu IS showlines. No ifs ands or buts about it. ONLY showlines go VA at this point....no bi's or blacks for a LONG LONG time! VAs are ONLY awarded at the National championship level - at the Sieger.

Lee


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Holy cow. This has turned interesting.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

gspuppies ? Marc?

There is the thread you asked for over on the PDB. I don't know if I can post a link??? 

I will and if not appropriate, it can be removed...

CLICK HERE FOR LINK 

If link is removed, go there and search for the thread titled:

Breeder thinks these lines are working lines

Now that you have it from the experts on the database, 
I hope that any nagging doubts you have about your dogs lines are gone now!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveHoly cow. This has turned interesting.


No kidding. Both of Keefer's parents have Schutzhund 3 titles, and I don't know squat about pedigrees, but even *I* know he's showlines, not working lines.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

> Quote:It also reinforces the fact that people breeding dogs need to do their research. It is up to buyers to know and understand what they want and up to us to know what we have so we can provide just that.


Very true Connie but unfortunately not all breeders are going to have as much knowledge as their clients would expect them to have. I'd say the majority of people that have ever contacted me about a pet pup have never owned a GSD before and don't really know what they want in a dog. I will suggest they check out showlines before considering my working lines and do some reading up on the difference. LOL giving them a ball and an adult for 5 minutes might change their mind real quick too but I don't want anyone to lose a finger.


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## lcordova (Jun 4, 2006)

NWS_Haven said:


> > Quote:It also reinforces the fact that people breeding dogs need to do their research.
> 
> 
> I´ve got to say that is a very good example of why the German Shepherd Dog overall quality as a dog has declined.... and why we customers need to do a very thorough research before choosing a breeder.
> ...


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Your english was great









Good point.
I've only JUST started learning about GSDs in the last year or so, despite owning them for over a decade. 
Even I knew that a show line dog doing shutzhund is not a working line... it's a working show line.. 
And I was considering them... Too bad.


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