# One more request for this pedigree



## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Sorry guys with all my questions! Trying to make good decisions, and it requires me to ask lots of questions and input from experienced GSD handlers.

Was recommended this breeder from someone. He has some pups available at 10 weeks and some more coming from this litter... The mom and dad look very respectable, but what do I know.

Sire - V Kosmo vom Heinrichplatz
Dam - V Yessica Von Modithor


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Those are West German Showlines. There are some excellent dogs in the pedigrees but I don’t know anything about either of those kennels.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Those are West German Showlines. There are some excellent dogs in the pedigrees but I don’t know anything about either of those kennels.


Aren't those working lines? IPO3 and IPO1?

How can you tell. Whether it's show line or working line? (or even west/east/Czech) so I know. 

He told me they are from a working line breed? 

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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Unmistakably West german showlines (the same dogs you weren’t open to  ) - yes, with working titles.

ETA: http://www.wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes, west German Show lines .

titles do not a line make . Are they as you say "very respectable"? That is determined by 
what is the temperament like, are they decently long lived, healthy , low risk orthopedic problems?

then there are questions about the breeder . Why is there a litter of 10 week olds , with more coming?
Are they a high frequency breeder ? Are they particular about where their dogs go or are they "get em outta here"

are there guarantees? Do they honor their guarantee?

how much knowledge , interest and support to they offer?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

See these pages for "Types": 

Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels  


https://www.germanshepherdguide.com/german-shepherd-types.html 


Reading Material
Things to look for in a 'Responsible' Breeder 



Good luck in your search!
Moms


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

It was actually american showlines OP said he didn't want. OP, I wouldn't rule out west german showlines if I were you.

Just...gotta find the right dog from the right breeder. Lots of people very happy with their West German Showlines. They will always be the black and red saddle dogs you see in this pedigree, where working lines will tend to have more sables, bicolor and blacks


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would suggest you take a look at the dogs it will be what helps you make the decision. I have pets asl and wgsl who can certainly earn some titles and are highly functionable. I had a dog capable of “bringing home a paycheck” he was especially calm quiet dog but incredibly serious. All different and all fit into our lives at the time. It is lots of work and due diligence to pick up the right pup your family but exciting all the same and incredibly worth it.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

ok so I made a mistake. The mothers are wrong. That was previous litter

6 week pups' mother - Ramira Vom Valtenber

10 week pup's mother - Rosel Von Grob-Zunder

These all look like high end well trained dogs? 

I don't have a problem with German showline. I assume they are still have their protection personalities, and good temperament. It was the american showlines I wasn't interested in.

Breeder is Vom Kirsys

He has good reviews on google, but not much here. He has a very weird contract and requires you to use certain food etc. but again good reivews from what I can tell. Only found 2 negative reviews on him.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don’t want to open a debate, so I will say from my own personal experience, WGSLs are easier than WLs, until you have experience with both. Now that I have successfully trained a WL, they are equally challenging and rewarding. Since there are very young children in the home, temperament is extremely important. 

This is also very important. If you visit a kennel and the parents are extremely calm and well trained, keep in mind that GSDs tend to settle after 3 years. So if the parents are 3 or older, which they should be, you are seeing mature dogs handled by an experienced owner. Ideally, you would want to see older puppies and young adult dogs from the same lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OP you may wnat to have a second look at the American "show" lines .

titles do not seem to have the same quality across the board , evident in youtubes
of even the Sieger show trials , the highest levels , at the annual German show ,
compared with the youtube performances of the BSP -- the working annual trials.

the BSP is open to all , not exclusive to working lines - 

what ever division of the breed you can find a member that will make a good companion
just make sure that your dog has a good nerve base 

when you add aggression , defence , "bite work" required to get those titles you want to make
sure that the dog is balanced and confident 

good luck


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

razorseal said:


> ok so I made a mistake. The mothers are wrong. That was previous litter
> 
> 6 week pups' mother - Ramira Vom Valtenber
> 
> ...


Just my personal opinion, I would never buy a dog from someone who required that I feed a specific food or supplements or any of that. But I would also never buy from a breeder that required spay/neuter. 
I know nothing about this breeder or the dogs in question so take my opinion for what it's worth. In fact I know very little about anything, but to my mind clauses like that are either admitting a deficiency in the dogs or giving them an out should you try and claim anything.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

razorseal said:


> These all look like high end well trained dogs?
> 
> I don't have a problem with German showline. I assume they are still have their protection personalities, and good temperament. It was the american showlines I wasn't interested in.


I own working line dogs but do have a West German show line. They are all good dogs.

I just would like to point out that as a rule of thumb, show line breeders tend to breed for conformation as a priority, where working line breeders prioritize temperament. It is something to keep in mind in your search.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Any breeder including working line can have their priorities unblalnced and leaning to one side. So again important to find that breeder that you trust and is reputable and meet their dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just don't expect the same "...they still have their protection personalities, and good temperament" from both lines of GSDs. It is just simply not the that way for most.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

First off - they are definitely showlines as stated by every one else....

Showlines are 99.999 % always tan/red/brown with a black saddle....there are some black and tan working lines, but only a small percentage.


The one thing that does concern me is that the sire is line bred on Nero Nobachtal. This dog was the center of a HUGE controversy within the SV a few years back. He had elbow surgery - many stories why - but his papers were pulled and there were some consequential actions taken to limit breeding from already registered progeny - maybe even papers pulled on many. There were some in other countries that were not affected, thus the very strong success of Teejay Wilhendorf....who was a 4x VA dog in the US in WDA/NASS...

I would do some research on previous pups from the sire and want to be sure he was producing passing hips and elbows....the one female had alot of fast normals....

IMO - there is a higher incidence of less than good hips in showlines due to heavy line breeding and backmassing on dogs who were poor hip producers....

As far as temperament and "protection ability"??? The priority of showline breeding, esp in the SV world is STRUCTURE (often called "anatomy").....not working ability.....I would not count on any working or natural guarding instincts - some do, some don't, have this....hard to say, it is a random quality from my observations.

Never heard of the kennel - all dogs look to have been imported with credentials in place......to me, personally - that is a bit of a red flag.....commercial breeder - do they actually have any experience and knowledge of the breed ?? do they have youngsters that they are training to title so they can add them to their breeding program or is it just a business to sell puppies??


Lee


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Even at the highest level (sieger show in Germany) many of the show line dogs fail their protection tests, so it is unwise to assume a show line dog will be a good protector of the home. 

I would ask to see the parents, to get an idea of their temperaments. Ask the breeder for specifics: do they bark at strangers? How do they react to a visitor coming into their kennel or the house? Are the ever IN the house, or are they strictly kennel dogs? (Warning red flag: means a commercial breeder, who is in it for the money, and likely does not have a good idea of what his dogs bring to the table in terms of temperament and working ability.)


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Well, you guys can't say I didn't do my research...

I recently discovered this breeder was sued by another breeder in miami for fraud and civil theft of multiple german shepherds. I won't share the docket from the courts (which is publicly available) because it has their names etc and I don't want that to go on public forums. If you are curious/interested, you can PM me and I will show ya. Long story short, this breeder lost the case and the plaintiff was awarded just about 500K worth of damages. He then was hit with threatening/tampering witness and key evidence regarding the case. Pretty crazy.... unfortunately you don't just get cash and you have to put lien on home etc etc. It's a complicated process

That being said, no matter how good the dogs are, I won't be getting them from him. lol


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You are finding out choosing the right dog is not quick or easy. Since you have young children, you don’t have room for mistakes. That is why we are all telling you to research well and take your time. You can find everything you want but it may take a while. For now, what seems most important to me along with health would be a dog that will thrive with children. When I was involved rescue the two main reasons people gave up well bred dogs were lack of time to exercise and train properly, and the dog being too much for their children.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

razorseal said:


> Well, you guys can't say I didn't do my research...
> 
> I recently discovered this breeder was sued by another breeder in miami for fraud and civil theft of multiple german shepherds. I won't share the docket from the courts (which is publicly available) because it has their names etc and I don't want that to go on public forums. If you are curious/interested, you can PM me and I will show ya. Long story short, this breeder lost the case and the plaintiff was awarded just about 500K worth of damages. He then was hit with threatening/tampering witness and key evidence regarding the case. Pretty crazy.... unfortunately you don't just get cash and you have to put lien on home etc etc. It's a complicated process
> 
> That being said, no matter how good the dogs are, I won't be getting them from him. lol


I was going to post that. This person was a partner with the person I told you about. Things went bad. Lino is the one who is very active around the world at shows and importing pups


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

razorseal said:


> ok so I made a mistake. The mothers are wrong. That was previous litter
> 
> 6 week pups' mother - Ramira Vom Valtenber
> 
> ...



they lied to you or misrepresented , or maybe they just do not know.
"He told me they are from a working line breed? 

maybe this is how the OP got confused DDR WORKING LINE PUPPIES,ADULTS DOGS FOR SALE 

planning to bring in the purest old ddr lines? oh sweet juice , I hope not. If such lines
still exist they need to be conserved and bred PROPERLY --- appreciated - not used to create another market niche - with blacks or sables 

I would love to find out what these elite drr lines are.

everything is sale sale sale -- 

"I assume they are still have their protection personalities, and good temperament"

go back and read Wolfstraums post -- protection? that also comes down to judgment .
What triggers this need to be protective ?
Is the dog percieving threat when there is none ? Big problem. Too reactive and almost guaranteed to not hang in if there is any push back pressure.

know all the facts . Know what you need and want . Go in well informed and then choose what
you like.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are finding out choosing the right dog is not quick or easy. Since you have young children, you don’t have room for mistakes. That is why we are all telling you to research well and take your time. You can find everything you want but it may take a while. For now, what seems most important to me along with health would be a dog that will thrive with children. When I was involved rescue the two main reasons people gave up well bred dogs were lack of time to exercise and train properly, and the dog being too much for their children.


We saw a 6 month old from another Miami breeder that was mentioned here. Sire is Ucar Von Bad-Boll and Dam is Venga von Jabora

We introduced the kids to the 6 month pup and you wouldn't believe the interaction they had. The dog loved our 2 year old. It was the funniest thing,he kept licking her face and wanting to play w her. She had enough of the face licking and pushed his snout away and he kept coming back for more licks lol. They fed the dog from their palm and I even caught my young one trying to move his water closer to him when he was drinking it and he didn't care.

I shoulda gotten a video, but we were too busy watching them play. They got more time than I did haha. 

If you look at my 1st post here, I had an unattainable wish list. But highest priority was how the dog was with my kids. This one exceeded that and met many others. He is 6 months old, so not an adult like some recommended for my family but it won't be 8 week puppy stress. This one should be able to stay in crate little longer as well. Not sure how much harder training will be for a 6 month but that's for another forum here.

My wife didn't appreciate the red rocket coming out that often when he was playing with us LOL she also didn't except a 6 month old to be this big already but loved the dog and how it interacted w our kids. He didn't have too much training for 6 month old dog I think, but I don't know... He had a trainer local to me I'll be able to work with. 









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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

razorseal said:


> We saw a 6 month old from another Miami breeder that was mentioned here. Sire is Ucar Von Bad-Boll and Dam is Venga von Jabora
> 
> We introduced the kids to the 6 month pup and you wouldn't believe the interaction they had. The dog loved our 2 year old. It was the funniest thing,he kept licking her face and wanting to play w her. She had enough of the face licking and pushed his snout away and he kept coming back for more licks lol. They fed the dog from their palm and I even caught my young one trying to move his water closer to him when he was drinking it and he didn't care.
> 
> ...


Quantum on the sire’s side, linebred on Ursus. I am not as familiar with the dam’s pedigree but they are nice looking dogs. Most important, the dog gets along with your children. 6 months is a good compromise. You still get a puppy but without the early difficulties. You have training lined up. Quick, buy him before someone here tells you not to.

I can guarantee if training goes well, you will want another puppy in a few years. One German Shepherd is never enough.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)




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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

What a steal, past the worst of the land shark stage and loves your kids?? Go for it! How much does he want for him? Find out too if he's house broken yet and how he does with cats. Looks like a nice dog!


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Quantum on the sire’s side, linebred on Ursus. I am not as familiar with the dam’s pedigree but they are nice looking dogs. Most important, the dog gets along with your children. 6 months is a good compromise. You still get a puppy but without the early difficulties. You have training lined up. Quick, buy him before someone here tells you not to.
> 
> I can guarantee if training goes well, you will want another puppy in a few years. One German Shepherd is never enough.


Thanks. We shook on him, I'm going to send my deposit to him wednesday. He's a retired police officer like me (albeit I'm not retired yet) so he took care of me. We're going to disney this weekend so I didn't want to pick him up today, only to find someone to take care of him for 3 days this coming weekend. We're going to pick him up next Monday.

Yes. I believe I did my due diligence and now little bit of luck will be involved. What's important is he is very good with my kids, has little bit of training (not much) and still needs potty training which I got some ideas on... and like I said, he is going to get me in touch with a trainer that he has worked with that lives near me.

The sire is in turkey right now doing some stud work. 

Very excited. I'm aware it's not easy work, but my kids aren't/weren't either. I wouldn't trade them for the world though... Pretty sure same with this dog.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> What a steal, past the worst of the land shark stage and loves your kids?? Go for it! How much does he want for him? Find out too if he's house broken yet and how he does with cats. Looks like a nice dog!


Hopefully he's OK with cats. not the biggest issue for me I guess. They run and hide and wife loves them. They're not my problem LOL. (just kidding, I hope he will be chill or learn to be chill with them)

I'll shoot u a PM on price.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Exciting for you. I think this dog sounds like a good choice


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

I was too busy interacting with the dog and watching how he goes with my girls, It was too late when I said "I should get a video" because he got tired and wanted some shade. I got this quick little video of him. 
He also showed me the dog playing around. He had some chamois thing attached to a pole with a rubber band on it. He would flail it around, and this guy just kept chasing it biting it, shaking his head... When he took it away, I guess he didn't see and he was searching around for the toy. lol


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Did you walk him on a leash? Is the dog crate trained?

Does he live in a kennel or does he spend time in a house (is he housebroken)?


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Did you walk him on a leash? Is the dog crate trained?
> 
> Does he live in a kennel or does he spend time in a house (is he housebroken)?


He does walk on the leash (he showed me) but needs "heel" work I guess. He doesn't go taking off when on leash though. He just walked on the leash with the owner next to him. He lived in a kennel outside, no potty training. I will have to do those on my own

as far as crate, I don't remember what he said, but I do remember him saying he doesn't really bark in a crate soooo yeah. I can't remember what he said.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I hope he turns out to be a great dog for your family for the next decade or so. But I would be a little more cautious of how you have your kids interact with him. No matter how he interacted with them as they moved freely around, there's no way I'd have my daughter lean in to pet him when he's pushed himself into a corner like he was. He's a strange, new dog to your family. Lived in a kennel. The training and house breaking probably won't be that difficult for you, but I'd go very slow with the relationship between him and the kids. 6mos is still a puppy for the most part, but they can bite pretty close to an adult. He may be absolutely trustworthy and respectful to your kids from the day you bring him home, but I'd really make sure as he goes through some big changes from a kennel to you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> I hope he turns out to be a great dog for your family for the next decade or so. But I would be a little more cautious of how you have your kids interact with him. No matter how he interacted with them as they moved freely around, there's no way I'd have my daughter lean in to pet him when he's pushed himself into a corner like he was. He's a strange, new dog to your family. Lived in a kennel. The training and house breaking probably won't be that difficult for you, but I'd go very slow with the relationship between him and the kids. 6mos is still a puppy for the most part, but they can bite pretty close to an adult. He may be absolutely trustworthy and respectful to your kids from the day you bring him home, but I'd really make sure as he goes through some big changes from a kennel to you.


That would be the first thing to work on with a trainer.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

razorseal said:


> He does walk on the leash (he showed me) but needs "heel" work I guess. He doesn't go taking off when on leash though. He just walked on the leash with the owner next to him. He lived in a kennel outside, no potty training. I will have to do those on my own
> 
> as far as crate, I don't remember what he said, but I do remember him saying he doesn't really bark in a crate soooo yeah. I can't remember what he said.


I went to look at a dog once, that would do a fancy heel in the training field, but he had basically never walked on a leash so he pulled like a freight train. Immediately gave me burns on my hands just trying to hang on to him. Never learned to yield to leash pressure. He had also lived in a kennel but was also crated in the house overnight. I had been pretty impressed with the dog up until that point but the trainer I was with asked for us to be allowed to put him on a leash and walk down the driveway. She handed me the leash and I instantly knew I could not handle the dog. That would have been every potty trip since I lived in an apartment. That dog was like 2 I think, it was probably 12 years ago.

Reason I asked about the crate training is that he is probably old enough and big enough to bust out of a wire crate at this age. It's easier to do with a baby puppy who doesn't have the strength to do that and they can learn to respect the crate before they have the size and strength to trash it.

Also bigger sized potty accidents in the house vs. a 8 week old.

Does anybody have experience potty training a dog that has lived in a kennel? How does that go?


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I went to look at a dog once, that would do a fancy heel in the training field, but he had basically never walked on a leash so he pulled like a freight train. Immediately gave me burns on my hands just trying to hang on to him. Never learned to yield to leash pressure. He had also lived in a kennel but was also crated in the house overnight. I had been pretty impressed with the dog up until that point but the trainer I was with asked for us to be allowed to put him on a leash and walk down the driveway. She handed me the leash and I instantly knew I could not handle the dog. That would have been every potty trip since I lived in an apartment. That dog was like 2 I think, it was probably 12 years ago.
> 
> Reason I asked about the crate training is that he is probably old enough and big enough to bust out of a wire crate at this age. It's easier to do with a baby puppy who doesn't have the strength to do that and they can learn to respect the crate before they have the size and strength to trash it.
> 
> ...


Gotcha... Yeah we'll see. If he's figthing the crate and the wires, I think I'd have to take some steps back to even get him comf in a crate. lol



LuvShepherds said:


> That would be the first thing to work on with a trainer.


What's that? kids and the dog? from kennel to a home?



Steve Strom said:


> I hope he turns out to be a great dog for your family for the next decade or so. But I would be a little more cautious of how you have your kids interact with him. No matter how he interacted with them as they moved freely around, there's no way I'd have my daughter lean in to pet him when he's pushed himself into a corner like he was. He's a strange, new dog to your family. Lived in a kennel. The training and house breaking probably won't be that difficult for you, but I'd go very slow with the relationship between him and the kids. 6mos is still a puppy for the most part, but they can bite pretty close to an adult. He may be absolutely trustworthy and respectful to your kids from the day you bring him home, but I'd really make sure as he goes through some big changes from a kennel to you.


It will be a learning experience for all of us. I did read your PM by the way. Thank you for that.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I'd also see if you can make a deal with the breeder perhaps if the dog doesn't work out for you guys to let you return him. Never know.. may have just been a leftover puppy from a litter he was thinking of keeping himself or maybe the dog has some crazy neurotic tendency or health issue and someone returned him. See if he has a health contract as well, i'm not sure if I missed that.


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## razorseal (Apr 26, 2018)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'd also see if you can make a deal with the breeder perhaps if the dog doesn't work out for you guys to let you return him. Never know.. may have just been a leftover puppy from a litter he was thinking of keeping himself or maybe the dog has some crazy neurotic tendency or health issue and someone returned him. See if he has a health contract as well, i'm not sure if I missed that.


I'll ask. I don't think breeders don't take dogs back and give you your money back though (correct me if I'm wrong). I'll ask him when I call him in the next couple of days as to why he stayed and the rest were adopted. I'm pretty sure most won't tell you the "real" reason though. He did tell me he has no health issues and will be transferred over with a clean bill of health.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes. I would have at least one session with a trainer in your home to watch the children and dog interact and give you suggestions on the best ways to keep everyone safe. Dogs don’t like being cornered, they need a place to escape when they want privacy. That could be a crate or a separate room. Your dog also doesn’t have house experience, so you can work on that, too. House manners first, then obedience.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

He seems like the perfect gsd for you and your family and so handsome :wub:


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

He looks great and seems very gentle and accepting of your little children! He is beautiful and is probably perfect for your family unless he has behavioral or health issues (which does not seem to be the case). I would ask why he was held back by the breeder. Perhaps, the breeder was keeping him for his program, but decided not to. It's probably a reason that wouldn't affect his ability to be a good companion, but I would want to know anyway. Did you ask or see how he behaves out in public and around unknown dogs? As a parent of toddlers, that's something that is important to me. I like to walk with my kids and dogs together, and I wouldn't want to worry about a leash-reactive dog. Any chance they will let him go on a monthly trial basis?--probably not, but worth asking maybe.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

sebrench said:


> He looks great, and seems very gentle and accepting of your little children. He is probably perfect for your family unless he has behavioral or health issues (which does not seem to be the case). Did you ask or see how he behaves out in public and around unknown dogs? As a parent of toddlers, that's something that is important to me. I like to take the dogs on walks with my kids, and I wouldn't want to worry about a leash-reactive dog. Any chance they will let him go on a monthly trial basis?--probably not, but worth asking maybe.


That is a good idea to check him out in other places and situations, also to see how he behaves away from the breeder. Most breeders will take back a dog in a situation like this if it can’t work. I also hate to assume it won’t. So far, everything looks positive, as long as they start out with a trainer.


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