# Neutering and House Breaking



## ExtraCelestial (Aug 16, 2016)

Hi! 

First of all- I must say, your forum has been a WEALTH of information. I've been printing out and making little packets to prepare for my puppy's arrival. Far and away some of the best advice I've seen. 

That out of the way- I am getting a GSD puppy in the next six months. In the past I've always adopted dogs from rescues that have already been altered. With this dog I may have the opportunity to wait until he is six months to have him neutered which I am reading more and more vets are suggesting. My question though is how much does this impact house breaking? And do you find it makes training in general more difficult? Do the rewards for waiting for neutering outweigh any risks you may experience with behavior? Keep in mind that I am a first time GSD owner (though I've been around dogs my whole life) and while I will be working very closely with a trainer, I'd prefer to not add unnecessarily to what I'm sure will be a learning curve for me. He will not be housed with any other dogs (though will live with two dog friendly kitty sisters). 

Thanks!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This might help with any neutering decisions: 

Neutering of German Shepherd Dogs: associated joint disorders, cancers and urinary incontinence - Hart - 2016 - Veterinary Medicine and Science - Wiley Online Library


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Never had a problem with house breaking in intact males. None has ever marked in the house. But I never allowed other intact non-pack members in the house to prevent this. Good luck on your search. You can leave a male intact as long as you are responsible and train him well.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This might help with any neutering decisions:
> 
> Neutering of German Shepherd Dogs: associated joint disorders, cancers and urinary incontinence - Hart - 2016 - Veterinary Medicine and Science - Wiley Online Library


Great article.Thanks for posting this.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Your puppy should be housebroken long before you neuter. Housebreaking happens almost the moment you get the dog home.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

ExtraCelestial said:


> My question though is how much does this impact house breaking?


 Keeping a dog intact has had absolutely ZERO impact on house breaking in my experience. 



> And do you find it makes training in general more difficult?


Just the opposite actually. Removing testosterone from the body decreases drive/motivation and reduces mental clarity. I have always found my intact dogs are far more willing to engage with me, enjoy training and keep going when things get frustrating, then the dogs that I have that have been neutered. 




> Do the rewards for waiting for neutering outweigh any risks you may experience with behavior?


Absolutely. Because testosterone is vital to growth - telling the growth plates when to stop growing. I would never neuter before 2 years. 

Even better though is not neutering at all.

Pros to neutering a male dog:
- Eliminates risk of getting testicular cancer. (One of the easiest to treat cancers something like an over 90% cure rate)
- Greatly reduces desire to roam (non-issue for house dogs)
- Reduces desire to mark (every neutered male I had marked anyways though)
- Reduces sexual behavior 
- Reduces aggression towards other dogs
- Reduces risk of non cancerous prostate problems 
- May reduce dominance type behaviors 

Cons to neutering:
- increases risk of many types of cancer including hemangio, bone cancer, lymphoma (The difficult to treat and often terminal ones)
- increases risk of musco-skeletal injuries and diseases such CCL tears, hip dysplasia (testosterone is vital to bone density and maintaining muscle mass)
- significantly increases risk of vaccine reactions
- increases risk of age related cognitive disorders (canine alzhiemers is a horrible thing to witness)
- increased risk of unwanted behavioral problems such as separation anxiety, reactivity, thunder phobia, and other fear based responses (including aggression). 
- poor fat to muscle ratios and much higher chance of becoming obese (the biggest killer of all)

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

Spay Neuter And Joint Disease

https://www.researchgate.net/public...t_of_age-related_cognitive_impairment_in_dogs

Having an intact single dog is really no big deal. Personally all the "pros" to neutering behavior wise can 100% completely be controlled and managed by providing clear, firm, consistent and fair leadership and training. As well as enough exercise. Personally I am convinced that the supposed positive behavioral changes we see in dogs is actually the depression that we see in human men when they have endocrine deficiencies. Sure the dogs may stop the behaviors but personally I would rather train the behaviors away and let my dog have that sense of well - being that comes along with properly balanced hormones. 

Emphasis on spay/neuter is really a north American cultural thing. It is not the norm in many countries.

Neutering is a major invasive surgery that destroys the balance of the body's endocrine system for life. Endocrine deficiencies have far reaching effects throughout pretty much every bodily system.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Pros to neutering a male dog:
> - Eliminates risk of getting testicular cancer. (One of the easiest to treat cancers something like an over 90% cure rate)
> - Greatly reduces desire to roam (non-issue for house dogs)
> - Reduces desire to mark (every neutered male I had marked anyways though)
> ...


Even some of these are questionable.

There are three intact females within 50 feet of my property. When they come into heat, my three intact males have ZERO reaction. They do not try to roam, they don't fuss, it is just another day to them. Now when one of my bitches come into heat it is a whole other ball game.

I have almost always had intact males and females in the same household since childhood. I have never had an intact male mark in my house. I once read an old thread on here that discussed the issue. It seems that one of the people that was adamant that males were going to mark had extensive all breed rescue backgrounds especially with small breeds and it appeared that the marking behavior_ in the house_ was primarily that of small breeds. 

Reduces sexual behavior? Such as? Humping toys? People? I never owned a dog that did that despite all but one being intact.

Some say neutering reduces dog aggression, some studies say it increases it. I have only owned one dog aggressive GSD and one that had reactivity. Most truly dog aggressive dogs are that way genetically and I doubt that neutering is going to change genetics. Dog reactivity is usually a training issue.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

After doing a lot of research, I've found neutering is not for me. For others that's their choice. I feel that 6 months is too young. There's a lot of vets that recommend 6 months, but a lot are saying to wait longer. Get your puppy. Train and raise him. If it's not broke, don't fix it.


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## ExtraCelestial (Aug 16, 2016)

Thanks! It's interesting that the housebreaking thing seems to be a non-issue across the board as that is what EVERYONE tells me when I mention I'm considering waiting. Unfortunately I cannot leave him intact forever as I live in DC and I wouldn't be able to board him.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

ExtraCelestial said:


> Thanks! It's interesting that the housebreaking thing seems to be a non-issue across the board as that is what EVERYONE tells me when I mention I'm considering waiting. Unfortunately I cannot leave him intact forever as I live in DC and I wouldn't be able to board him.


Does DC have a mandatory soay/neuter law now or are you just worried about finding boarding for an intact dog in the area?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

You can board an intact dog in DC. I do it all the time. Unless you have your heart set on one particular place that does not allow it, there is no reason he can't be boarded.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Couldn't friends, family or a pet sitter be an option if you have to go away? Why can't you board in DC? Can you board him in surrounding areas?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

ExtraCelestial said:


> Thanks! It's interesting that the housebreaking thing seems to be a non-issue across the board as that is what EVERYONE tells me when I mention I'm considering waiting. Unfortunately I cannot leave him intact forever as I live in DC and I wouldn't be able to board him.


Really? Its annoying the old idea that all dogs need to be "fixed" is so prevalent.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Call around to holistic and vets that specialized in canine athletes. They see more intact pets and will know who is reputable in the area and caters to intact dogs. But most boarding places I have encountered do take intact males. They only really bulk at taking a female in heat. 

However there is a pretty wide spread ban on intact dogs using the doggy day care / group play aspect of boarding. 

But those are dangerous and shouldn't be used anyways IMHO


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

ExtraCelestial said:


> Thanks! It's interesting that the housebreaking thing seems to be a non-issue across the board as that is what EVERYONE tells me when I mention I'm considering waiting. Unfortunately I cannot leave him intact forever as I live in DC and I wouldn't be able to board him.


That's very common. Our boarding kennel keeps dogs together and they can't handle intact adults. They won't take my puppy anymore until he is neutered.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> That's very common. Our boarding kennel keeps dogs together and they can't handle intact adults. They won't take my puppy anymore until he is neutered.


that's not a kennel setup that I would ever consider leaving my dog, intact or not.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> That's very common. Our boarding kennel keeps dogs together and they can't handle intact adults.


Yeah. It's the group boarding places that don't like intact males over 6 mos. 

Having worked at a place that had group boarding/daycare - i just can't see myself ever using one.

We sent dogs to the vet almost every single day. 

Pack dynamics. Staff unfamiliar with the dogs. Lots of staff who knew jack about dog behavior in general and couldn't read the animals and shut down escalating behavior. Dogs that wouldn't mind staff member's commands... not to mention the biohazard. Ugh.

Too many illnesses and injuries for me to ever be comfortable with it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dainerra said:


> that's not a kennel setup that I would ever consider leaving my dog, intact or not.


Yes. This. 

I can take my dog to a park or to a friend's and have him safely play with other dogs. I know my dog well and he is obedient to me. I can read when he is getting worked up or uncomfortable - easily. The stable signs like his ear twitch. I can call him to me and have him respond immediately. 

The staff at daycare facilities can't do that. They are also looking after multiple dogs at the same time. So their attention is divided. 

My dog will not reliably obey a stranger. They haven't put in the time and have given appropriate consequences for disobedience. My dog will blow them off. Most dogs will if not obeying is more rewarding to them when it comes to commands given by non family. 

Stuff escalates in that environment quickly. 

I like traditional boarding. Keep my dog in a kennel alone and walk him on leash to stretch his legs a bit. Not fun for the dog, but SAFE. 

Meh. I just don't trust people with my baby


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> that's not a kennel setup that I would ever consider leaving my dog, intact or not.


You have to see it to understand. It's a great set up and their workers are all well trained in dog behavior. It's pretty much the only kennel I would leave my dog, other than back with our breeder.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

There must be someone where you can board an intact dog. Can't you ignore the neuter police, the shelters, hoarders, rescuers etc., and go to a breeder's club, Schutzhund club or anywhere where people are more tolerant and educated on this subject?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> Yeah. It's the group boarding places that don't like intact males over 6 mos.
> 
> Having worked at a place that had group boarding/daycare - i just can't see myself ever using one.
> 
> ...


This kennel is run by people who are already dog handlers on a professional basis. I know it's not for everyone but I know many people who have recommended it to me. My older dog loves it. My puppy did until he got too big. It's geared toward working lines. They get many Mals and German Shepherds. I've never heard a single complaint about it, either. I've tried three and won't use the rest. My dogs don't care for the vet. Too many sick and scared dogs where they board. I think that would be more dangerous.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> There must be someone where you can board an intact dog. Can't you ignore the neuter police, the shelters, hoarders, rescuers etc., and go to a breeder's club, Schutzhund club or anywhere where people are more tolerant and educated on this subject?



:spittingcoffee:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm not arguing with anyone. I hope it didn't seem that way. We have different experiences and expectations. I used to take my dogs to a place where they had their own rooms and were exercised twice a day. It wasn't enough interaction and they were always weird for a while when we got back. My dogs are used to being with each other and with people. In an open situation, they are with multiple people all the time.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm not arguing with anyone. I hope it didn't seem that way. We have different experiences and expectations. I used to take my dogs to a place where they had their own rooms and were exercised twice a day. It wasn't enough interaction and they were always weird for a while when we got back. My dogs are used to being with each other and with people. In an open situation, they are with multiple people all the time.


I think a lot depends on the dogs. I would not do it because my dogs would never obey somebody else reliably. Another reason I would not do it is because I do go to dog parks with my dogs, and due to that experience, I think it is critical that the dog to human ratio be no less than 1:1. At the very least, preferably more people to dogs, especially when the people are not owners and the dogs can't be expected to respond reliably and maybe not even react all that desirably to somebody who is not an owner.


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## ExtraCelestial (Aug 16, 2016)

I plan to take him with me most of the time when I travel and I have a few friends and family members that could fill in if that fell through. This would be more for when I knew I was going to be working late hours. 

And yes the place I had in mind is more like a doggie daycare. Citydog! or Doozydog as its called in DC. They seem to have a pretty stellar reputation and there's a webcam in the playrooms I can monitor all day. My next topic to search on the forum was actually going to be daycares! I'm open to criticism about them as I always just want to make the best choices for my dog. 

There's also just a general discomfort with intact dogs here. I'm assuming lack of exposure? But I think there is also some judgement about breeding and when someone sees a dog that hasn't been altered they make assumptions. I've already accepted the fact that I will get lectures at the dog park


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

ExtraCelestial said:


> I plan to take him with me most of the time when I travel and I have a few friends and family members that could fill in if that fell through. This would be more for when I knew I was going to be working late hours.
> 
> And yes the place I had in mind is more like a doggie daycare. Citydog! or Doozydog as its called in DC. They seem to have a pretty stellar reputation and there's a webcam in the playrooms I can monitor all day. My next topic to search on the forum was actually going to be daycares! I'm open to criticism about them as I always just want to make the best choices for my dog.
> 
> There's also just a general discomfort with intact dogs here. I'm assuming lack of exposure? But I think there is also some judgement about breeding and when someone sees a dog that hasn't been altered they make assumptions. I've already accepted the fact that I will get lectures at the dog park


There are a lots of draw backs to using a doggie day care. 

First of which is long term health. Doggie day cares require all their clients to have yearly and bi-yearly vaccinations. 

Over vaccination can lead to all sorts of long term health issues. Allergies. Immuno suppression. Cancer. 

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/08/20/pets-over-vaccination-disease.aspx

Plus being around other dogs in such proximity you dog will be exposed to parasites and illness. Fleas. Worms. Viruses, Bacteria, Fungi. 

You would need to use a monthly Flea and tick product. Which have been linked with thyroid issues, liver and Kidney toxicity, and neurological issues.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-dangers-of-flea-and-tick-products/

Of course you would also need to have the pup neutered which all the health drawbacks were discussed further up the thread. 

Then there is the risk of injury. I worked for a big chain petstore that had a doggie day care. Injuries will happen. It is inevitable. They are dogs. Dogs have teeth. They dynamics of the "pack" are always changing depending on who is there that day. New unknown dogs are always comming in. Plenty of times I've seen dogs that were fine on intake. Fine during the temperament assessment. Only to have them snap during group play. Your dog may not even be the instigator. Plenty of injuries happened to innocent dogs via redirected aggression. Most of the injuries that happen are puncture wounds which are not fun to treat. Get infected easily. But usually are not too serious. Sometimes though they can be devestating. I saw a lab lose an eye do to a scuffle in group play. Bottom tooth of the other dog went right in. It was horrible. 

You also put your dog at risk in another way. GSDs get a bad rap. If something happens and a staff member gets an accidental bite while dealing with your dog and another - when the incidence gets reported to animal control, which will happen, you will face much more scrutiny thanks to breed bias. Risks of bites to human go up exponentially with each dog there.

You'd be better off and will probably save a lot more money by building a relationship with a really good dog walker/pet sitter. How can check in on and exercise your pup when you work late.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think a lot depends on the dogs. I would not do it because my dogs would never obey somebody else reliably. Another reason I would not do it is because I do go to dog parks with my dogs, and due to that experience, I think it is critical that the dog to human ratio be no less than 1:1. At the very least, preferably more people to dogs, especially when the people are not owners and the dogs can't be expected to respond reliably and maybe not even react all that desirably to somebody who is not an owner.


Without getting into too much personal detail, this particular kennel screens very carefully. They screen their employees and they test the dogs. I was very impressed with the evaluations they did of my dogs. Without knowing anything about my older one, the evaluator came out of the room and gave me a summary of his observations of her interactions. He understood her perfectly. They look at the dogs' body language and interactions. Things like body slamming are not allowed. They watch the dogs with easy dogs and with bossy dogs to see how they react. Both of mine reacted perfectly. They said if they aren't sure about a dog, they will take it conditionally and do a longer observation, or they will turn the dog away. They also have a number of older calm dogs that set the tone for the other dogs. It's not what you typically think of as a cageless kennel.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

voodoolamb said:


> There are a lots of draw backs to using a doggie day care.
> 
> First of which is long term health. Doggie day cares require all their clients to have yearly and bi-yearly vaccinations.
> 
> ...


That gives me a lot to think about. Right now, my dogs aren't going to a day care. I'm not sure I will go back.


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## ExtraCelestial (Aug 16, 2016)

Thanks, this definitely talked me out of doggie daycare


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