# Do you do muzzle work?



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

(Just some thought provoking questions)

If so, why? And how often? What are your goals in doing muzzle work? What does a given dog show you that would make you believe muzzle work is a good or a bad training tool for that dog?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> (Just some thought provoking questions)
> 
> If so, why? And how often? What are your goals in doing muzzle work? What does a given dog show you that would make you believe muzzle work is a good or a bad training tool for that dog?


I am anxious to see what other post. I have a muzzle and would like to do muzzle work. However I am new this and I'm not really sure how to answer your questions. 

To my understanding, it is used to bring out aggression or build confidence depending on how it is used. Again this is all ignorance talking so.....


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I am anxious to see what other post. I have a muzzle and would like to do muzzle work. However I am new this and I'm not really sure how to answer your questions.
> 
> To my understanding, it is used to bring out aggression or build confidence depending on how it is used. Again this is all ignorance talking so.....


Its got many uses... proofing, building frustration, for some dogs I suppose more confidence, for some higher aggression. For some who's prey drive is so stupidly high that working in aggression is much harder I'd reason getting the sleeve or other bite object out of the picture facilitates aggression. like you said, depends on how its being used. What kind of muzzle do you have? Custom made? Like it?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Its got many uses... proofing, building frustration, for some dogs I suppose more confidence, for some higher aggression. For some who's prey drive is so stupidly high that working in aggression is much harder I'd reason getting the sleeve or other bite object out of the picture facilitates aggression. like you said, depends on how its being used. What kind of muzzle do you have? Custom made? Like it?


I have a redline agitation muzzle. Other than putting it on my dog so she gets used to it I have not used it (she's only 9 months old). It is steel reinforced and padded on the inside. My dog got used to it rather quickly so I would guess that's it's fairly comfortable.
Leather Police Dog Agitation Muzzle

I have only seen muzzle work done once by my trainer on a PPD. On that dog is was used to bring out more defense. It seemed to work plus really tick the dog off. He went after the helper hard! 

I have also been told it can be used to teach a dog to use it's body rather than just bite to take someone down. I think there are so many uses for it that it really just depends on what the dog is being used for and the dog itself. 

Sorry I know I am no help to this conversation.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I have a redline agitation muzzle. Other than putting it on my dog so she gets used to it I have not used it (she's only 9 months old). It is steel reinforced and padded on the inside. My dog got used to it rather quickly so I would guess that's it's fairly comfortable.
> Leather Police Dog Agitation Muzzle
> 
> I have only seen muzzle work done once by my trainer on a PPD. On that dog is was used to bring out more defense. It seemed to work plus really tick the dog off. He went after the helper hard!
> ...


Oh, this was meant more as a general discussion, poll of opinion, etc. In that regard you are being very helpful 

How exactly was he working the dog? Bringing out aggression or defense? I ask to make sure we mean the same things with given words, and everyone has their own meaning in the discussion of drives.

Do you feel it is of use for a "sport dog"? What made you get an agitation muzzle?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Oh, this was meant more as a general discussion, poll of opinion, etc. In that regard you are being very helpful
> 
> How exactly was he working the dog? Bringing out aggression or defense? I ask to make sure we mean the same things with given words, and everyone has their own meaning in the discussion of drives.
> 
> Do you feel it is of use for a "sport dog"? What made you get an agitation muzzle?


Sorry for my mix up. Yes the end result was agression. From the helpers stand point it started out just like bringing out defense in the dog in his posture and movements. He was also "reving up" the dog. I am going just off memory here and I had just gotten into the protection stuff so I was/am not 100% sure of what I was seeing. 

Honestly I got an agitation muzzle for a couple reasons. 1) I thought it was cool and had to have one haha. 2) I am a practical applications guy. Meaning I am in an IPO club, but if the situation were to ever come up I want my dog capable and trained to bite for real. I am interested in all the protection sports, however if I have to sacrifice points in order to have my dog do it for real so be it. That being said I'm still not sure if my dog really has the temperment for that so we will see with time. 

I do think it can be used for sport. I hate to keep repeating it, but again it depends on the way it's used.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

I have only seen our trainer use it once and it was on PPD to see if it would go for someone OUT of the bitework gear and in plain clothes when asked to . This dog in particular did try her darndest was not happy that she had a muzzle on!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Sorry for my mix up. Yes the end result was agression. From the helpers stand point it started out just like bringing out defense in the dog in his posture and movements. He was also "reving up" the dog. I am going just off memory here and I had just gotten into the protection stuff so I was/am not 100% sure of what I was seeing.
> 
> Honestly I got an agitation muzzle for a couple reasons. 1) I thought it was cool and had to have one haha. 2) I am a practical applications guy. Meaning I am in an IPO club, but if the situation were to ever come up I want my dog capable and trained to bite for real. I am interested in all the protection sports, however if I have to sacrifice points in order to have my dog do it for real so be it. That being said I'm still not sure if my dog really has the temperment for that so we will see with time.
> 
> I do think it can be used for sport. I hate to keep repeating it, but again it depends on the way it's used.


I'm the same way. I want my dogs to "be real" in all the work, not just doing crap to get their toy/bite.

Why do you say that about your dog? What do you view as proper temperament for it?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Dooney's Mom said:


> I have only seen our trainer use it once and it was on PPD to see if it would go for someone OUT of the bitework gear and in plain clothes when asked to . This dog in particular did try her darndest was not happy that she had a muzzle on!


I would *think* a PPD would already be accustomed to muzzle work, suit work, etc. A dog trained only one sleeves, that doesn't even hesitate to bite "for real", is a rare thing I think


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I would *think* a PPD would already be accustomed to muzzle work, suit work, etc. A dog trained only one sleeves, that doesn't even hesitate to bite "for real", is a rare thing I think


He does use the bite suits as well..


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm the same way. I want my dogs to "be real" in all the work, not just doing crap to get their toy/bite.
> 
> Why do you say that about your dog? What do you view as proper temperament for it?


I only say that about her, because I have been told that by someone who I respect and has trained PPD's. He thinks she is too soft. She is a soft dog, but she seems to take protection work very serious (right now just IPO type protection). That same person has complemented me on how well balanced she is so who really knows. Again she is only a few days shy of 9 months. So I don't know how she will mature. She is a very sweet and loving dog. A little too friendly for my taste but since I take her everywhere that makes her safe. She is confident but not pushy. 

As for what I view as proper temperment for it. I'm still developing my own opinion on that. I have only been around any type of protection work or sport since January of this year. So it is all very new to me. Now I did jump in head first and I am also traininig as a helper as well just so I can learn both sides.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I only say that about her, because I have been told that by someone who I respect and has trained PPD's. He thinks she is too soft. She is a soft dog, but she seems to take protection work very serious (right now just IPO type protection). That same person has complemented me on how well balanced she is so who really knows. Again she is only a few days shy of 9 months. So I don't know how she will mature. She is a very sweet and loving dog. A little too friendly for my taste but since I take her everywhere that makes her safe. She is confident but not pushy.
> 
> As for what I view as proper temperment for it. I'm still developing my own opinion on that. I have only been around any type of protection work or sport since January of this year. So it is all very new to me. Now I did jump in head first and I am also traininig as a helper as well just so I can learn both sides.


Your understanding and learning of dogs will kick into overdrive when you start doing helperwork. You'll see things you never saw before. You'll get to see all the handling errors everyone makes & the reaction of the dogs... and how the handler reacts to *that*, and so on. You can learn many mistakes not to make just by handling vicariously through the dog/handler teams you work. You'll see all the little nuances that you do, and how it affects a given dog. You'll get much more aware of your posture and body language and "energy". You'll get in touch with your inner animal 

Anyway, take it with a grain of salt... she is still *really* young at 9 months, and my female is a lovable lapdog normally, but really intense in protection. Both my dogs fooled me as to what went on in their heads. We thought my female was softer than she was (she's actually a really hard bitch. I straight up got manipulated by her early on), and my male harder than he was (he can take any amount of pressure from others... seems to like it even, but is *very* handler soft but in a way that is not readily obvious. Only noticed it indirectly in how my handling effected performance and how he acts off the field. He's a dog that has to know I'm in his corner, and when he does he is a machine. If he doesn't think he has my approval he goes to a weird place where he gets nutty and angry... hard to explain. All a product of my early naive handling. My female is a dog that forgets who I am once she's in the heat of the moment)


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I haven't. I would like to. Talked to a friend of mine about doing some with Deja. He said he doesn't want to be the one working her because he thinks she will be brutal. LOL Why would I want to do it? One, I think it would be fun. Two, because it would be something else to add to our training program. Three because it would give me some more insight into my dogs. I think it would have been great for Vala.

I have done suit work and hidden sleeve work with some of my dogs. I have not yet with Deja.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I haven't put one on Koda, but it's coming. It's required in PSA.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I haven't. I would like to. Talked to a friend of mine about doing some with Deja. He said he doesn't want to be the one working her because he thinks she will be brutal. LOL Why would I want to do it? One, I think it would be fun. Two, because it would be something else to add to our training program. Three because it would give me some more insight into my dogs. I think it would have been great for Vala.
> 
> I have done suit work and hidden sleeve work with some of my dogs. I have not yet with Deja.


I've done suit work. I have hidden sleeves but haven't bothered much with them. I'm not convinced they don't know full well its just a sleeve of another flavor. I think muzzle work is similar to suit work, atleast in that its "more personal" for the dog.. you really gotta get in there. The only problem is suits are soooooo expensive, and I'm a small guy so if I did buy one, it would have to fit me, which means it won't fit anyone else, which means my dogs won't actually benefit from it :-(. In the same breath, I don't want to buy one for someone else just to work my dogs lol


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The way we do hidden sleeve work the dog doesn't know it is a sleeve. My old female, Nike, was also a PPD. 

We are lucky that the club has an older police suit to use. It is a bit too large for our helpers, who are not big men, but it still works.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I've done suit work. I have hidden sleeves but haven't bothered much with them. I'm not convinced they don't know full well its just a sleeve of another flavor. I think muzzle work is similar to suit work, atleast in that its "more personal" for the dog.. you really gotta get in there. The only problem is suits are soooooo expensive, and I'm a small guy so if I did buy one, it would have to fit me, which means it won't fit anyone else, which means my dogs won't actually benefit from it :-(. In the same breath, I don't want to buy one for someone else just to work my dogs lol


I am having the same problem with the suit. I want one but i am also a smaller guy so it wont fit anyone else. So really a couple of us need one but like you said they are so pricey. I have two hidden sleeves but I'm convinced once the dog has used it once they know it's a sleeve. One dog was hesitant at first then bit. After that it acted the same as it did on a regular sleeve. That's even wearing a shirt or jacket over them. Although, I think with a suit the dogs know that too. I have never used one so I don't know but that's what I would think. I mean the helper/decoy looks puffy. Not as much with some of the newer custom fit ones but still not the same. As for muzzle work I do think it brings out different things in the dog. I was told today that we will be doing muzzle work one day this week. So hopefully after that I will have more educated thnings to add to this conversation.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I am having the same problem with the suit. I want one but i am also a smaller guy so it wont fit anyone else. So really a couple of us need one but like you said they are so pricey. I have two hidden sleeves but I'm convinced once the dog has used it once they know it's a sleeve. One dog was hesitant at first then bit. After that it acted the same as it did on a regular sleeve. That's even wearing a shirt or jacket over them. Although, I think with a suit the dogs know that too. I have never used one so I don't know but that's what I would think. I mean the helper/decoy looks puffy. Not as much with some of the newer custom fit ones but still not the same. As for muzzle work I do think it brings out different things in the dog. I was told today that we will be doing muzzle work one day this week. So hopefully after that I will have more educated thnings to add to this conversation.


Judging from the sandy background in your avatar, I'm guessing you're about as far away from me as is possible eh?

The dogs do know its a suit, but I think that still doesn't change the fact that its very much "more personal". Many dogs won't or hesitate to engage the first time on a suit. I think its because hey, it looks like a jacket, and when they learn it *is* infact bite material they lose the hesitation. I think you will consistently keep the dog in more aggressive state of mind with a suit than a sleeve, all other things held equal. Its those last few feet of engagement that are truly challenging. Thats why you'll see dogs haul butt for the courage test and put on the brakes in the last 5 feet, same with horses and jumps I think. And also why a dog may favor one side in a long bite really hard... its a willingness to engage but a discomfort for really driving straight through the middle into the decoy.

I'm thinking of getting custom muzzles from Hortons. Anyone have any thoughts on them or an alternative?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How about using one if you have only "wimpy" helpers?

Heh! Heh!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Judging from the sandy background in your avatar, I'm guessing you're about as far away from me as is possible eh?
> 
> The dogs do know its a suit, but I think that still doesn't change the fact that its very much "more personal". Many dogs won't or hesitate to engage the first time on a suit. I think its because hey, it looks like a jacket, and when they learn it *is* infact bite material they lose the hesitation. I think you will consistently keep the dog in more aggressive state of mind with a suit than a sleeve, all other things held equal. Its those last few feet of engagement that are truly challenging. Thats why you'll see dogs haul butt for the courage test and put on the brakes in the last 5 feet, same with horses and jumps I think. And also why a dog may favor one side in a long bite really hard... its a willingness to engage but a discomfort for really driving straight through the middle into the decoy.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting custom muzzles from Hortons. Anyone have any thoughts on them or an alternative?


Yes, I'm in beautiful sunny Southern California. 

What you said makes perfect sense to me. I have noticed that a lot of dogs go one direction or the other not straight through. Hmm..... More food for thought I guess. You have got me thinking. 

Now doing muzzle work, even just to bring out agression would also build confidence yes? Would that not make a dog want to come more direct to the decoy? Example: Muzzled dog is getting agitated poked prodded whatever, the handler releases dog, dog is ramming(for lack of a better word) the decoy the doecoy then falls to the ground and so on. Now the dog gets so worked up and mad that he goes directly into the decoy. Once the dog get's the decoy to the ground he/she feels it "wins". What are your thoughts on that scenario?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Yes, I'm in beautiful sunny Southern California.
> 
> What you said makes perfect sense to me. I have noticed that a lot of dogs go one direction or the other not straight through. Hmm..... More food for thought I guess. You have got me thinking.
> 
> Now doing muzzle work, even just to bring out agression would also build confidence yes? Would that not make a dog want to come more direct to the decoy? Example: Muzzled dog is getting agitated poked prodded whatever, the handler releases dog, dog is ramming(for lack of a better word) the decoy the doecoy then falls to the ground and so on. Now the dog gets so worked up and mad that he goes directly into the decoy. Once the dog get's the decoy to the ground he/she feels it "wins". What are your thoughts on that scenario?


I've never done muzzle work, however this is how I would interpret it based on my understanding.

It would be building confidence so long as the higher aggression leads to beating the helper. Higher aggression where the helper just fights harder will likely put self doubt and unsureness in the dog... The goal as I see it, is to make the dog show strong aggression and think he can win yet still feel a little unsure if he can beat me, but at the same instant he must believe that I am also harboring the same feelings. If he truly thinks I am badder than him, then he will go into behaviors we don't want or get defensive. If he believes he's badder than me and I'm a coward, I have not really progressed the training when he wins. This applies to any engagement with the dog regardless of the equipment used.

The scenario you explained I think skipped a few steps. At first I'd teach (or re-teach) the dog that his aggression can push me into avoidance... without any physical contact. Then I'd progress to letting the first contact be made. I once read you should act as though "all your skin has been peeled off and the muzzle is made of salt". I'd keep progressing asking for more and more aggression and fight before I "go into avoidance" or otherwise am defeated. 

A dog, I don't think, will go straight in to a helper simply out of increased drive level or frustration. I think part is genetic, and part is building into the dog over time that he can always win by showing more aggression and more power.

Have you started catching dogs in long bites or backup bites? The dog that comes dead center is actually a rarity. Part of that is courage, part of that is prey drive and seeing a sleeve on one side, and part still is training I think.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

codmaster said:


> How about using one if you have only "wimpy" helpers?
> 
> Heh! Heh!


Using a muzzle? You mean as a confidence builder for the helper so they aren't scared of being bitten? I've actually considered muzzle work for this reason... if you aren't actually giving bites to the dog then non-helpers are one of the best confidence builders for a dog I think... the really convince the dog he is putting them into avoidance, because they really are scared lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I've never done muzzle work, however this is how I would interpret it based on my understanding.
> 
> It would be building confidence so long as the higher aggression leads to beating the helper. Higher aggression where the helper just fights harder will likely put self doubt and unsureness in the dog... The goal as I see it, is to make the dog show strong aggression and think he can win yet still feel a little unsure if he can beat me, but at the same instant he must believe that I am also harboring the same feelings. If he truly thinks I am badder than him, then he will go into behaviors we don't want or get defensive. If he believes he's badder than me and I'm a coward, I have not really progressed the training when he wins. This applies to any engagement with the dog regardless of the equipment used.
> 
> ...


I have caught a few long bites, and yes I have not really seen a dog come straight into me. On a re-attack or an attack on handler though they are coming straight into me. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "back-up bite". 

I answered the rest in the quote box in red. I actually think we are on the same page just maybe wording things different. I'm asking questions because like I said this is new to me so I try and gather as much info as possible from as many places as possible.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I have caught a few long bites, and yes I have not really seen a dog come straight into me. On a re-attack or an attack on handler though they are coming straight into me. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "back-up bite".
> 
> I answered the rest in the quote box in red. I actually think we are on the same page just maybe wording things different. I'm asking questions because like I said this is new to me so I try and gather as much info as possible from as many places as possible.


To directly quote someone else, this is what I mean when I use the words


Armin Winkler/Helmut Raiser said:


> Prey Drive
> 
> Prey drive is part of a dog's food gathering behaviour. In a predatory animal that means prey drive governs hunting and killing techniques. Chasing, flushing, pouncing, biting, and shaking-to-death, are the most important of these techniques when we are talking about protection training. In order to stimulate these instinctive techniques in the dog, we have to keep in mind what a real prey animal does when it is hunted. Prey is always on the move, it always moves in an evasive fashion, and it is panic-stricken. These behaviours in turn trigger pursuit, pouncing, biting, pulling, and shaking-to-death in the dog. Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more." Author's note: Considering the serious effects the end result of this drive would have on a prey animal, I do not subscribe to the idea that prey work is only a silly game.
> 
> ...


With a reattack the dog doesn't have much time to decide how they want to come into you. In a long bite they have all the time and space in the world. Backup bites just meaning, basically a long bite where you are stationary or moving backwards to help new dogs/helpers, etc.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> To directly quote someone else, this is what I mean when I use the words
> 
> 
> With a reattack the dog doesn't have much time to decide how they want to come into you. In a long bite they have all the time and space in the world. Backup bites just meaning, basically a long bite where you are stationary or moving backwards to help new dogs/helpers, etc.


Yes I have done backup bites. I am trying to become both a trial and training helper. I am quickly learning that they are very different. I actually like the training helper part more. Thanks for the quote on the drives. I have some material on that but I like adding to it(I saved it). 

What are you looking to do for your muzzle work? What outcome are you looking for? What is your reasoning for wanting to do the work?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think muzzle work is very telling of a dogs heart. But it shouldn't be introduced early or at an age where it will cause conflict with confidence and ability. Even if the dog is a high prey drive dog, without confidence it won't necessarily help to channel the aggressive/defensive nature. 
Not sure if you've seen this: 



it shows a dog that loves the fight yet is balanced, mature, confident in doing so.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I think muzzle work is very telling of a dogs heart. But it shouldn't be introduced early or at an age where it will cause conflict with confidence and ability. Even if the dog is a high prey drive dog, without confidence it won't necessarily help to channel the aggressive/defensive nature.
> Not sure if you've seen this: Andy Muzzle Work 11-16-07 - YouTube
> it shows a dog that loves the fight yet is balanced, mature, confident in doing so.


I have not seen that video. Thanks for posting it. 

Do you or have you done muzzle work? If so what was your experience with it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No, I don't. Not sure I ever will with Karlo,but it looks like it would be fun for him....he loves to fight. That video is of his sire.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Yes I have done backup bites. I am trying to become both a trial and training helper. I am quickly learning that they are very different. I actually like the training helper part more. Thanks for the quote on the drives. I have some material on that but I like adding to it(I saved it).
> 
> What are you looking to do for your muzzle work? What outcome are you looking for? What is your reasoning for wanting to do the work?


I did get my certification as a trial helper, however training helper work is all I'm really interested in.

The quote was from "Der Schutzhund", which is a pretty seminal work in protection dog training.

As for muzzle work (bought mine lastnight), there are many reasons:

I want to keep increasing my dogs aggression levels during the work
I want to know the dogs "mean it" and will bite with our without a sleeve or suit or whatever
My club helper is moving in a month or two. I need to work my dogs. Rather than risk the effects of an inexperience helper giving poorly timed bites, poorly presented bites, or not presenting the right picture to the dogs, I'd rather do muzzle work. I would have more control over the whole thing this way I think. When there needs to be grip work, or targeting work, I can do that myself working my dogs in prey drive. Basically, I gotta work with what I've got available to me to the best of my ability.
Much like suit work, I expect the overall outcome to be increased confidence, increased work in aggression, more intensity all around, etc.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> No, I don't. Not sure I ever will with Karlo,but it looks like it would be fun for him....he loves to fight. That video is of his sire.


Why do you say you wouldn't?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Onyx girl sees it as I do. I have done muzzlework many many times at both ends of the leash. Should be done with mature dog that is working in both prey and fight drive. It will definitely tell you a lot about your dog when you take away the teeth and ask him/her to take on a bad guy. Will show/develop intensity, can be productive in control, especially outing a dog off leash kicked up in drive, gives insight into how a dog will handle hand to hand fighting back, it does a lot of things. Having said that, you would be surprised how many dogs can't get past the muzzle being on, or that their drive diminishes when put into a muzzle. The strong dogs it won't affect, but if there are ****** in the courage/fight drive, you will much better see it.JMO


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've only done it myself once. Nikon had a foot infection that was worsening because he kept chewing on it, so my helper at the time brought several muzzles (DPO style, not cheapy pet store muzzles) to training for him to try on. Once we found one that fit, the helper riled him up a bit and he responded really strongly so we played with some muzzle work for a few minutes. In Nikon's case the helper said it was good for him. Since that was a borrowed muzzle I can't do it right now, and we're working on something else with Nikon but I'd like to go back to it at some point.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Onyx girl sees it as I do. I have done muzzlework many many times at both ends of the leash. Should be done with mature dog that is working in both prey and fight drive. It will definitely tell you a lot about your dog when you take away the teeth and ask him/her to take on a bad guy. Will show/develop intensity, can be productive in control, especially outing a dog off leash kicked up in drive, gives insight into how a dog will handle hand to hand fighting back, it does a lot of things. Having said that, you would be surprised how many dogs can't get past the muzzle being on, or that their drive diminishes when put into a muzzle. The strong dogs it won't affect, but if there are ****** in the courage/fight drive, you will much better see it.JMO


Wouldn't the dog that rejects the muzzle be indicative of not doing the groundwork for introducing the muzzle? Or perhaps a poorly fitting muzzle? As a comparison, anyone who's ever had to wear some piece of equipment.. be it a helmet, body armor, a lifejacket, etc... if its not fitted right or just plan crap quality, you'll never get used to and will always be highly uncomfortable. If you have a properly fitting one and over time not even notice its there. I'm sure there are dogs that are effected by the muzzle more than others, but I bet at least some of the dogs that can't get past it, its due to one of the above issues.

One thing I've figured out about Jäger is with more aggression, more pressure, and making it "more personal", his performance goes way up. Thats the main reason with him I want to try muzzle work. I'd imagine you know that already as from every description I've ever heard, his sire and grandsire were the same. The first time on a suit he didn't so much as hesitate.. looked like he had done suitwork before, so I don't expect there to be any hesitation to engage. The only issue I might have is getting him to accept the muzzle out of drive.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think it's just fit but what the dog can do when biting is not an option. A lot of dogs are really good at biting and feel really secure in the bite on the sleeve but can't hold it together when that's not an option.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I don't think it's just fit but what the dog can do when biting is not an option. A lot of dogs are really good at biting and feel really secure in the bite on the sleeve but can't hold it together when that's not an option.


Oh yeah I know. I just meant some of the time that may play into it. Specifically because in shopping for muzzles it seems quality and fit are all over the place


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you put a muzzle on a good dog and present them with a fight, IMO, they will ignore the muzzle for the fight. 

I know I, personally, would not want to be a green helper working a good dog in a muzzle. They may not be able to bite, but they can still do a lot of damage.  The really good ones use that muzzle as a weapon just as much as they would use their teeth.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Lisa....I agree totally.
@ hunterisgreat. I can condition a dog to noise also, but that is not the trait of a dog I'm looking for.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ive been thinking about this a lot also my dog has done hidden sleeves jackets and pants

the kind of jackets she does is mostly the thinner ones that look more real not the big puffy police kind the ring jackets

i have not done sleeves in a long time


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