# Beast color?



## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Not sure I selected the right forum area...hopefully...

Frequently people ask me specifics about Beast when they realize he is a GSD. Often they say something like he looks so much like a GSD or what kind of a GSD is that. All our GSDs have always been easy- a richly colored black and tan blanket back, a buff and barely there saddle back, a black and cream saddle back, a white...and now Beast. He is, um, mottled? Messy? a blur? He has very rich pigment (though the photos are rather washed- he thinks the camera steals his soul so lighting is the last thing I get to worry about)..he has a nice red behind his ears....and what seems like a black overlay- I mean when I brush his fur it is all a nice deep, reddish tan in the brush. If you brush the fur against the grain it looks all tan....he has black backs of his legs and black down the front of his legs and on his toes...his tails is thick, brushy and black on the underside...he has a very black face. What color is he?

Face from the side:









above his back:









racing by:









running, from the front:









eating an apple:









from behind:


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

Looks like a dark sable to me....

And a handsome one at that!!!!:wub:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

He is a gorgeous, well pigmented sable!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Quite stunning! I agree- a dark sable


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

That's easy he's a sable. A very handsome boy at that.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks all- when I looked at pics of sables here he just looked different in life than the pics I was seeing...I just think of him as messy colored


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He's a handsome sable!!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There many variations on sable, aren't there? I like the Beast's color!


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

He is quite a Beast to behold- color and carriage. He is huge and dark and a force when thundering toward you


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

SO....what makes a sable a sable? How does one KNOW the dog is sable?


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, COLOR & PIGMENT


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

He is a gorgeous sable boy!!! There are different variations of sables. I have 1 in my avatar and her sister is a little bit lighter than her. Sables are usually born with a black stripe like a skunk that's going down their back to their tail. The sable gene if I'm not mistaken is a dominant gene. Usually 1 of the parents has to be sable in order to produce a sable. If I'm wrong then I would hope someone would correct me ;-)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

dogsnkiddos said:


> SO....what makes a sable a sable? How does one KNOW the dog is sable?


The genetics.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Obviously genetics  I guess I would have been better to phrase my question how does one discern a sable by looking at it? Is there some group characteristic that must be shared? I look at the photos of sables all over this site and I really can't figure out what they all have in common that allows them to be labeled sable. I have looked at that illustrated guide before and it *still* did not help me. I thought I understood the concept of sable, but then when I look at real dogs I can't make the connection.

We never saw beast as a baby- he came to us around 7 or 8 months, this size, color, etc. I once looked up his pedigree but obviously, even if his parents had been sables I would not have recognized it. 

I guess I am trying to figure out what criteria checklist one goes through when looking at a dog to decide it is sable. Are there certain things that must be or must NOT be in order to be classified as sable? I don't know why I have such a hard time with this idea but it really stumps me...


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

dogsnkiddos said:


> Obviously genetics  I guess I would have been better to phrase my question how does one discern a sable by looking at it? Is there some group characteristic that must be shared? I look at the photos of sables all over this site and I really can't figure out what they all have in common that allows them to be labeled sable. I have looked at that illustrated guide before and it *still* did not help me. I thought I understood the concept of sable, but then when I look at real dogs I can't make the connection.
> 
> We never saw beast as a baby- he came to us around 7 or 8 months, this size, color, etc. I once looked up his pedigree but obviously, even if his parents had been sables I would not have recognized it.
> 
> I guess I am trying to figure out what criteria checklist one goes through when looking at a dog to decide it is sable. Are there certain things that must be or must NOT be in order to be classified as sable? I don't know why I have such a hard time with this idea but it really stumps me...


Did you read the link I posted above? If so, I don't think you should still be confused.

Here it is again....
Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, COLOR & PIGMENT


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I did read it and I have read it before...however when I look at the examples drawn and I look at the examples of people who say they have sables I cannot see the connection between them all...in fact the illustration looks like a normal black and tan saddled dog- so I wonder if you are just looking at a dog or a photo of a dog how can you tell it is a sable and not a black and tan? Is there some set of criteria, a checklist to differentiate when you are looking at it/photo of it?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sable is the colour of the individual hairs. In a Black and tan, the individual black hairs are solid black. The undercoat on the black areas is black. In a sable, the individual guard hairs have a patterned colour change. If you look at a single sable hair, the colour on the hair alternates with a dark area, then a light area, then a dark area, then a light area, etc . . . 

In my boy, the undercoat is cream. When I brush him, even in the dark areas of his body, all the soft undercoat that comes out is cream. 

In the winter, with his thick undercoat, the thickness of the undercoat pushes the guard hair out so that they stand up more, and more cream shows through. Now that his undercoat is shedding out, his outer hairs are lying down flat, and gives the impression of areas of solid colour. Since beast is a dark sable - so has more black in his patterned hairs, he does have larger areas that _look_ like they are solid black, but I bet that if you brush him, or stroke his hair against the grain, you will see the lighter coloured undercoat.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The individual sable hairs are agouti patterned. If you magnified one it would be easier to see each is "striped" or banded.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

ok...so individual hairs...but no other general characteristics? So looking at a photo you really need to KNOW what you are looking for or have a thorough verbal description with the pic to know ? I thought there was some check list I just didn't know when really it is simply an understanding well versed eye for detail. I now understand! I was looking for something that isn't there! I was certain it was something like three lines of black four fingers behind the ribs or two dots above the tail or some other such very specific markings that had to be in common (obviously my examples were just made up mumbo jumbo, but you get what I mean). I was over thinking it! Thanks for humoring my idiocy!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The more GSDs of different color patterns you will see, the more versed you will get at picking out the sables from the crowd. Thing is with sables, is that even a sable can have somewhat of a saddle, can be short haired or long-haired, dark or washed out, pencil toed or not . . . but the individual patterned hairs, like the great illustration Samba posted, is what really gives it away.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

dogsnkiddos said:


> ok...so individual hairs...but no other general characteristics?


I'm not trying to be a smart *** here, but the general characteristic is that they are a sable. Sables have a very distinct coat and color pattern, and you do not need to look at the individual hairs to determine if a dog is a sable or not. In regards to the link that was posted above - the very first picture that comes up on that site is simply a blanket back GSD that was chosen to head the site. The entire page is not about sables. I think that is where some of your confusion might be coming from in reference to why that dog doesn't look like a sable to you. It is not a saddle back, however, as you stated. It's a blanket back. 

Think of a sable as a dog that is "marbled" in color, whereas a saddle back, blanket back, bi-color, etc all have a very distinct coat pattern that is black in one area, and tan in another.

Sables, just like all other GSD colors, come in varying shades and coat richness. Just like you find washed out saddle backs who don't have a jet black saddle and deep tan markings elsewhere, sables have various shades and richness to them as well.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Read the attached links, lot's of explanations:

Sable German Shepherds: Agouti or Wolf Gray

Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog, COLOR & PIGMENT

4GSD - Coat Colours

GSD Patterns, Colors, Coat Lengths & More


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

rerun- on the link unloader (was that the poster?) put up, the first row of illustrations I thought was of sables...and frankly when I looked at those illustrations and the photos all over the board of sables I could not see anything by *looking* that made them all that different/different at all from how dogs that are NOT called sables looked. Still don't. I can understand the explanation of it being individual hairs...but now that I read your post I am back to the original question- if it is a specific coat pattern...well then I would think when you look at a group of them they would have similarities that you could see....but that does not seem to be the case in either the illustrations or in photos on the board. 

See my original thought after reading the link the very first time I saw it (many months ago) was that I needed to ignore the illustrations and use the written explanation and compare that to real photos of dogs. I still could not see the written explanation matching up to the many photos I saw so I began to think there had to be some other set of things, some sort of a checklist, that makes a sable known to be a sable just by looking at a photo. None of it made me think the Beast was a sable- and he is a real life example for me- so clearly I got things very confused.
I can totally envision a marble coloring as a way to tell a sable (something concrete I can understand)...but then I look at the dogs photos who are called sables and I don't see much "marbling"...and again I get totally turned around.
I am not trying to be difficult..I am also not trying to be an idiot (hey I managed to graduate from Harvard so I can vouch to eventually being able to get things through the thick skull). Maybe the only real solution is to see more sables in person....or maybe the links MRL posted (I have yet to click them). Every time I think I have the grouping criteria set in my head I just can't correlate it real dogs. I have a mental block.


Ok I clicked MRL links...the third was interesting (not because it cleared up the sable issue for me- in fact it just reaffirmed that there is so much variation and so much looking like a GSD not labeled as sable that I will never be able to figure out how looking at a photo one can id a sable- I am blown away by the keen observation skills of those who can- I am TRULY impressed)...anyway it was interesting because Beast has all the leg markings- penciling, tar heels, and striping...and now I have terms for it  I also like the last link because I saw a dog like our beloved old gal who died in 2006 (all tan with barely there black)

Thanks all for trying to help the class idiot. I am afraid it is likely a hopeless cause...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Once you have seen a few sables in real-life, you'll be able to identify them quite well. Pictures are tricky, depending on the resolution and the amount of light available. 

I see you posted on the sable thread - there are a few dogs that are very light sable and a few that are so dark they almost look solid, but for the most part, they are a good representation of typical sable colouring.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> The more GSDs of different color patterns you will see, the more versed you will get at picking out the sables from the crowd. Thing is with sables, is that even a sable can have somewhat of a saddle, can be short haired or long-haired, dark or washed out, pencil toed or not . . . but the individual patterned hairs, like the great illustration Samba posted, is what really gives it away.


What is pencil toed?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Some dogs have dark lines on top of their toes, like they were drawn in with a big fat pencil. They always occur in bi-colours, and often dark sables have them too. 

Anyone have any good pictures of Pencil markings to show Paula?


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

yes...looking over that thread after I was told he was a sable here added to my confusion (ie nothing I could see the same in all of them)...which inspired me to come back here and ask...
anyway I just called Beast over and took a picture of his toes (for the penciling):

Front right foot:









Back right leg:


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## mtmarabianz (Jan 7, 2010)

@dogsnkiddos,

Thank you for posting the photo's of "toe penciling"!

I have always wondered what this was, & what it looked like!!

I too have a sable gsd, & in the past have posted photo's inquiring on the color of my dog!!!

Although, she is not the dark sable of your dog, nor does she have "toe penciling" -- she is sable!!

Also, Your Dog Is Beautiful!!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Samba said:


> The individual sable hairs are agouti patterned. If you magnified one it would be easier to see each is "striped" or banded.


 
So if my dog has Agouti hair - banded coloring, would he be considered a sable?  The more I read the less I know.....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes and no. Some banded hairs on dogs of other colors (like the "bitch stripe" common on the shoulders and down the spine on black/tans) do occur. On a sable, all of the hair in the black marked areas will be banded not just some hairs in some areas.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

So, let's say that your dog is registered through AKC as a black and tan, and you found out that your dog is actually a sable, or black and red (etc.) and you have no doubts. Would you need to change the registration? Even if it's just for the sake of correct records on the lineage?


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Um... so.... I think I have two sables :blush:. I just spent time examining the hairs on the dogs. I wish I'd had the camera as the face on Beast was so funny! Old Bitch just stayed laying on her side and seemed to enjoy the inspection/massage. Her hairs...all the ones in her "saddle" area and other black areas are banded. She has always been cream when you brush her in the wrong direction, but I had no idea what I was looking at- I always just thought she was a regular old black and light cream!
At least I can be certain my white is a white!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as changing AKC registration, I'm not sure they even will. But before trying I'd make 100% sure the dog really is the color you now think the dog is. 
Including having the dog (or photos) viewed by people who can definitively say one way or the other rather than just going by info gleaned on a message board. It's just to easy to misinterpret.

Especially since black/tan VS sable are very, very obvious as pups and there is no way one can be mistaken for the other. But as adults it can be more tricky. Adult patterned sables can look much like black/tans, and black/tans with faded saddles or large bitch stripes can be mistaken for sables if you don't know exactly what to look for. One can't make those mistakes as puppies so I'd be cautious about second guessing whomever picked the color on the initial registration unless you have reason to believe that person couldn't tell the difference between a sable pup and black/tan pup... because really as pups they look *nothing* alike.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I would not consider him a DARK sable (at least doesn't look like he is looking at the picture where he is eating an apple), but Sable indeed he is.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> As far as changing AKC registration, I'm not sure they even will. But before trying I'd make 100% sure the dog really is the color you now think the dog is.
> Including having the dog (or photos) viewed by people who can definitively say one way or the other rather than just going by info gleaned on a message board. It's just to easy to misinterpret.
> 
> Especially since black/tan VS sable are very, very obvious as pups and there is no way one can be mistaken for the other. But as adults it can be more tricky. Adult patterned sables can look much like black/tans, and black/tans with faded saddles or large bitch stripes can be mistaken for sables if you don't know exactly what to look for. One can't make those mistakes as puppies so I'd be cautious about second guessing whomever picked the color on the initial registration unless you have reason to believe that person couldn't tell the difference between a sable pup and black/tan pup... because really as pups they look *nothing* alike.


Ok - thanks! I was curious. I think Hondo pushes the black and red envelope, more than a black and tan. And then his hair is banded. It doesn't make any difference to me, as I'm not showing or breeding. But it made me think about looking at Hondo's lineage before I choose him, and wondered how much stock you should put into what colors are stated through AKC.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I now have another question. All through the black area on Old Bitch's body her hairs are banded-with black tips and lighter color below that. When you move up her neck to her head she is opposite- black base with light tips. Is this sable as well?


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't know if you can see it int his photo- but she is that white under and the top of each hair is black. That was the middle of her side.

And another of Beast who gave me an odd look while I did that to Old Bitch:


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

dogsnkiddos said:


> yes...looking over that thread after I was told he was a sable here added to my confusion (ie nothing I could see the same in all of them)...which inspired me to come back here and ask...
> anyway I just called Beast over and took a picture of his toes (for the penciling):
> 
> Front right foot:
> ...


Thanks for the photos. My sable puppy doesn't have pencil toes.


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