# Rate these hips ( Please )



## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

These were taken digitally and with no sadation of our Jero


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I'm no expert but I think they look great. I would say OFA Good at the least.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

The positioning could be better. The left side does not appear to be seated as deaply as the right, but if you also look at the pelvis, it could just be that the dog is not laid straight.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Well, Jero was a hand full when this film was taken so they may have not took such a straight shot when it was taken though


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## Tula (May 21, 2004)

Well... they look a boatload better than Ekko's!!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Good, maybe excellent. Have you sent them to OFA??


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I would hazard a guess and say that if you get the right evaluators looking at them, you may get excellent.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

The positioning is crooked, look at the spine/tail. L looks to be a little less in the socket than R but still great coverage. Did you get a GOOD at least on these. Now what did the radiologist/vet say vs OFA?

Mods -- we should have a rate the hips section so they don't get lost in other threads.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

"Rate the Hips" would be great as its own section! I really enjoy looking/guessing, seeing what others comments are, and finding out what the final verdict was.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Oooo yeah I'd love that section! I was going to say I don't know anything but I like these threads a lot and regardless of the hips, I like chuck's picture, it's easier for me to see what you guys are talking about than some of the others.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

That's a GREAT example of what a slightly rotated pelvis looks like. The structures, right to left, are not perfectly symmetrical. But it's slight-and would not interfere with the reading I wouldn't think.
Like the contrast much better on this one!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

If these were sent in to OFA wouldn't they send them back and say redo the xrays? I thought they wouldn't eval if the positioning wasn't correct?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

OFA will send back bad positioning, but I doubt they would return these as the hip joint still looks good and you can see that on the film. I have seen some that I think they should have sent back (where a bad film makes the hips look really bad), but they just failed them instead.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I don't think the positioning is that bad. I can't see them sending this back.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Disregarding the positioning, I see rounded heads, a little bit of a point on the L head, nice necks, sockets don't look too bad except for that left side, overall I'd say these should pass but I'm hesitant to say with what rating. The left side makes me take pause.

Now I am no expert, just taking a stab at the fun guessing game of Rate My Hips!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Positioning isn't perfect, but it's not all that bad either. I've seen much worse sent to OFA and not returned for poor positioning. It's sufficient for evaluating the joints.

I'm going to guess OFA Good. I wouldn't rule out Excellent, but it seems OFA only gives those to GSDs during certain times of the year when the stars are aligned just so....


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

These were Jero's prelims taken last February in which we got a good rating from OFA and now we have a appointment to do his and a few others next week. Have anyone had a prelim as good and come back with a fair or worse when the one is done @ 2 years of age.

I personally like the digital films better than the old type. The thing is if I was going to send them in overseas they would except digital photo's. I also see a differents in films taken while the dog is sadated over not sadating them, as they seem more accurate without sadation.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:I also see a differents in films taken while the dog is sadated over not sadating them, as they seem more accurate without sadation.


Actually, in my opinion and that of OFA, the positioning is more correct with sedation as the hips can be stretched 
more and a true view of how the ball and socket fit can be seen. Also Laxity shows up better on a sedated xray.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: chuck Have anyone had a prelim as good and come back with a fair or worse when the one is done @ 2 years of age.


Yes. Had an OFA Excellent Prelim come back as OFA Fair at 2. And two OFA Good prelims come back as Mild HD at 2.

Then, also had 2 Mild HD prelims and 1 Borderline prelim come back as OFA Good at 2.

Oddest part being there really wasn't much significant difference between the 9-12 month old x-rays and the 2yo x-rays. Really does make me wonder what OFA evaluators are thinking sometimes....


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Chris I totally understand what you mean by how OFA rates hips sometimes. What I don't understand is how hips rated overseas are so superior to OFA ratings. And why they couldn't learn by the way Europe does things.

I personally think the non sadation and digital films will be more accurate than to put a dog to sleep to get the film. But there are those that think differently. Its ashame that Europe doesn't except digital films or I would send them there for hip rating instead


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I also have seen one change. My Kenju went Prelim Good and came back OFA Fair at 2.... but he also cracked his pelvis in between


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: chuck
> I personally think the non sadation and digital films will be more accurate than to put a dog to sleep to get the film. But there are those that think differently.


What is your reasoning behind this? Just curious...


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

They now do require that you indicate if films on the dog have been sent in before.

Chuck, it also depends on the country. Drigon was a3 in Hungary. Hungary a1 rating is not given out like in Germany. The higher % there get a2. Of course, everyone would say how he had bad hips, etc. 

When Drigon was OFA'd here for his breed survey at 5.5 years and LOTs of work (multilpe WUSVs), the hips were clean and deap seated. OFA excellent. That is what we thought and were very happy.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Britney First of all is that all the muscles and tendons are tighter than when the dog is put out also the digital film is a lot clearer as you can see for yourself.

Thanks Sue for your input, Jero's breeder offered to send in the xrays overseas if I wanted but later found out that they didn't accept digital xrays


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: chuckHave anyone had a prelim as good and come back with a fair or worse when the one is done @ 2 years of age.


No but Dante who was good at 14 months came back excellent at 2 years


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

And, Elsa's Prelim's were Fair at one year and Officials came back Good at 2 years.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Urro's hips were Borderline at 10 months then came back Good at 2.5 years old. His issues were laxity that tightened up a lot as he got older.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: chuckBritney First of all is that all the muscles and tendons are tighter than when the dog is put out also the digital film is a lot clearer as you can see for yourself.
> 
> Thanks Sue for your input, Jero's breeder offered to send in the xrays overseas if I wanted but later found out that they didn't accept digital xrays


Actually the muscle and tendons and ligements tend to be "relaxed" when the dog is tranquilized or under anesthesia which is why joints will show more laxity and also why Penn Hip requires the dogs to be put out. They couldn't force the hip joint for the one shot without it being very painful. also some sedatives create more of a relaxed state than others.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: chuckBritney First of all is that all the muscles and tendons are tighter than when the dog is put out also the digital film is a lot clearer as you can see for yourself.


I wasn't really referring to the digital xrays so much as I was the preference for a dog that is not sedated. I've worked at several veterinary hospitals and taken several xrays using digital radiography, trust me, I prefer it!









However, I've _never_ heard someone say they think you get a better picture of joints without sedation, so that's why I was curious. Would you care to elaborate a little more? I don't quite understand why you would prefer to have tight muscles and tendons when trying to view the laxity in hip joints...? 

As GSMom stated, PennHip actually requires sedation.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Taken from the OFA website:



> Quote: Does the OFA require the animal to be anesthetized during the radiograph?
> The OFA recommends chemical restraint to the point of muscle relaxation, however it is not required.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

My vet only uses sedation when necessary. If they can't get the films, then yes they'll sedate but for the norm, never seen her sedate one, and ofa's have ALWAYS come back as she stated they would.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

> Quote: Actually the muscle and tendons and ligements tend to be "relaxed" when the dog is tranquilized or under anesthesia which is why joints will show more laxity


Britney this is what I was trying to say. As for the digital films I prefer them over xrays


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: chuck
> 
> 
> > Quote: Actually the muscle and tendons and ligements tend to be "relaxed" when the dog is tranquilized or under anesthesia which is why joints will show more laxity
> ...


So you WANT the tendons and muscles to be relaxed to show appropriate laxity? How do you achieve that without sedation?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I enjoy looking at the hip x-rays and reading the discussions about sedation v. non-sedation. Today I called my vet to schedule hip and elbow x-rays for Rafi and asked if I could try it without sedation. They told me that it is illegal in NYS to be in the room holding the dog while the x-rays are being done so they have to sedate the dogs to get proper positioning.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow They told me that it is illegal in NYS to be in the room holding the dog while the x-rays are being done so they have to sedate the dogs to get proper positioning.


Yes this is true in certain states, veterinary technicians and doctors cannot be in the room exposed to radiation, so sedation is required.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Britney So why don't you explain since you are the EXPERT


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Never claimed to be an expert. I was just genuinely curious as to WHY you preferred not using light sedation while the films are taken because you made a claim in your first post about it keeping the muscles and tendons "tighter" which would in turn provide a better view. 

Someone then posted about how it is actually quite the opposite and that having the muscles and tendons relaxed, via sedation, is what shows the most laxity and clearest picture of the joints. You agreed with that which contradicted your original statement.. so now I'm just confused, that's all.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

> Quote: I've worked at several veterinary hospitals and taken several xrays using digital radiography,



Well??????????????/


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Chuck, there is no reason to get snotty.



> Originally Posted By: BritneyPNever claimed to be an expert. I was just genuinely curious as to WHY you preferred not using light sedation while the films are taken because you made a claim in your first post about it keeping the muscles and tendons "tighter" which would in turn provide a better view.
> 
> Someone then posted about how it is actually quite the opposite and that having the muscles and tendons relaxed, via sedation, is what shows the most laxity and clearest picture of the joints. You agreed with that which contradicted your original statement.. so now I'm just confused, that's all.



I suppose it depends on the person's definition of a "good picture".

In terms of positioning, it is ALWAYS easier to get proper positioning for the film if the dog is sedated. But then, there are always medical risks (albeit very small) sedating the dog.

In terms of what the x-ray shows sedation relaxes muscles and connective tissue, allowing for greater laxity in the joint. This can make the joint appear more loose than it is normally when the dog is awake and things aren't so relaxed. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on perspective. If someone is doing x-rays because they truly want to know the status of the joint and how much laxity can exist, sedation would be better. Though it does beg the question of just how accurate is the evaluation, since sedation artificially creates a situation of laxity that doesn't exist in the dog's everyday life. If someone is doing x-rays just to get OFA certs and wants the best possible chance of passing OFA, the excess laxity caused by sedation might be considered a bad thing because that excess laxity could affect the chance of passing.

We have always used mild sedation to ensure getting a good film with proper positioning and while we obviously want the hips to pass OFA, since we're doing this for potential breeding stock, we want to make sure any OFA pass is legitimately earned with no cutting corners.

PennHip requires sedation because they are measuring laxity and want to know how loose the hips can get. OFA doesn't require it, but does require it to be stated on the form if the dog was sedated or not, and with what drugs, so that is taken into consideration when reading the films and they aren't comparing apples to oranges (sedated to not) when it comes to judging laxity.


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