# Dog Stolen... Thoughts?



## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

I have to admit that every time I see an "outside dog," it makes me sad. The person who stole the dog definitely had some stones.

Thieves leave letter explaining why they stole family's dog - wsbt.com


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## Charmander52 (Oct 21, 2011)

Wow... It shouldn't surprise me that someone would do this, and yet it does...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not sure what you mean by stones. They wanted a nice, well-cared for dog, and took it. 

This dog has a sunscreen over its roomy kennel. It has a house for shelter. The family loves the dog, they just do not keep it inside all the time. 

I hope the cops catch these idiots and charge them with grand theft. They are felons, criminals. I don't care what they think. 

My guess is that whoever is calling AC on these people might be the ones that stole their dog. I would start there, particularly if there is a repeated complaint-ant. 

There is NEVER a good reason to go outside of the law and steal an animal. If you do not like chains, do something to change the law, but do not go and take a dog off their chain, it is a good way to get bit. If you do not like outdoor dogs, than try to get an ordinance passed. Educate people. Try a bring the dog in, campaign. But stealing dogs should be a felony regardless to the monetary value of the animal.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

selzer said:


> I am not sure what you mean by stones. They wanted a nice, well-cared for dog, and took it.
> 
> This dog has a sunscreen over its roomy kennel. It has a house for shelter. The family loves the dog, they just do not keep it inside all the time.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree with Selzer on this one.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

I don't think they stole the dog because they wanted one, but rather because they felt sorry for a dog that they viewed as being neglected...as indicated by their note. There is a difference. 

IMO, and I'm sure you will disagree with this...a person has no business purchasing a dog if they are going to keep it outside, alone, 23+ hours a day. I'm not saying they had a right to steal the dog, but I can see where there head is at...




selzer said:


> I am not sure what you mean by stones. They wanted a nice, well-cared for dog, and took it.
> 
> This dog has a sunscreen over its roomy kennel. It has a house for shelter. The family loves the dog, they just do not keep it inside all the time.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Pryght said:


> I don't think they stole the dog because they wanted one, but rather because they felt sorry for a dog that they viewed as being neglected...as indicated by their note. There is a difference.
> 
> IMO, and I'm sure you will disagree with this...a person has no business purchasing a dog if they are going to keep it outside, alone, 23+ hours a day. I'm not saying they had a right to steal the dog, but I can see where there head is at...


Do we actually know if the dog was kept in there for 23 + hours a day? 

The dog looks well cared for. Animal Control controlled them three times in two years and said no issues whatsoever. The dog does not look neglected at all. He looks clean, well fed and happy. 

So jumping to assumptions just because the dog is an outside dog makes me crazy. 

Except for 5 males, all our dogs have been outside dogs. If I could, I would have outdoor kennels myself as well and they'd be both, in and outdoor dogs. Just because you drive by a certain time of the day and see the dogs in their kennels and you jump to the conclusion that they spend all day, every day, out there in a kennel doesn't mean that that is actually the case. 

And how is it possible that a large, spacy outdoor kennel is so horrible but people keep their dogs in a 36 inch crate for 8+ hours a day.... can somebody please tell me the logic behind that? 

I'd much rather have my dogs outside, in a spacy kennel than having them cramped in a **** crate all day long, every day of the week to "keep them safe".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, outside right now my dogs are getting swarmed by deerflies. They don't have that problem in the house. Though I don't crate them when I'm gone either.
I think the person that stole the dog should be prosecuted.
I know of someone here on the boards that has to endure seeing her next door neighbors dobe suffer in extreme cold/heat, drink water from the air conditioner condensation and seldom gets fed. But when AC has visited, the dog has water and they won't do anything about the neglect. This person on the board does take it upon herself to give the dog water and probably food, as she hates to see the dog suffer.
If she could, I'm sure she'd have the dobe rehomed in a heartbeat.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

It drives me crazy when dog owners think that providing a dog with sufficient food and water is enough. What about love? 

Is it enough to provide a child with good living conditions, food, and water...or should more be provided? It is the same with our pets.



Mrs.K said:


> Do we actually know if the dog was kept in there for 23 + hours a day?
> 
> The dog looks well cared for. Animal Control controlled them three times in two years and said no issues whatsoever. The dog does not look neglected at all. He looks clean, well fed and happy.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Pryght said:


> It drives me crazy when dog owners think that providing a dog with sufficient food and water is enough. What about love?
> 
> Is it enough to provide a child with good living conditions, food, and water...or should more be provided? It is the same with our pets.


WHO says that the dogs are only provided with water and food? Just because a dog lives outdoors doesn't mean they are not loved. 

I know outdoor dogs that are better cared for, trained, exercised and yes, LOVED, than a lot of miserable, fat, overfed so called "Loved" dogs living inside with no purpose in life.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

IMO, if a person loves their dog, they will find a place for it in their house. They will not force it to be exposed to the elements, isolated from their "pack."

I don't think there are many dogs that would prefer being left in a kennel at night instead of inside the house...and because of this, if one cannot allow their pet to live in the house, they have no business buying one in the first place. 



Mrs.K said:


> WHO says that the dogs are only provided with water and food? Just because a dog lives outdoors doesn't mean they are not loved.
> 
> I know outdoor dogs that are better cared for, trained, exercised and yes, LOVED, than a lot of miserable, fat, overfed so called "Loved" dogs living inside with no purpose in life.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Pryght said:


> It drives me crazy when dog owners think that providing a dog with sufficient food and water is enough. What about love?
> 
> Is it enough to provide a child with good living conditions, food, and water...or should more be provided? It is the same with our pets.



HOW do you know that the dog was not loved? You DON'T you only assume because the dog is outside. My uncles had hunting dogs, they were never in the home, they were outside in kennels. They were hunting dogs, and they did go hunting with them (birds/racoons/etc) and they were better cared for than a lot of dogs that are "inside" dogs.

Gotta say I agree with selzer and mrs.k, those people need to be caught and charged. The only place their head was in was their own selfish tendencies and assumptions.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Many of the Northern breeds are not real pack oriented and do prefer to be outside(especially when it is cooler out) 
They aren't into their people like a GSD is. My dogs prefer to be where I am, out or in....and that is typical for the breed. 
But not all are so into their people. 
If the dog has shelter, is well taken care of(meaning both physical and mental stimulation) then outside more often should be fine, some dogs know no difference. 
But personally, I'd never have a kennel dog or outside dog. I have them for companionship.

A dog on a chain is a different story, and I don't believe any dog regardless of the situation belongs on a chain. They do deserve better.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Pryght said:


> IMO, if a person loves their dog, they will find a place for it in their house. They will not force it to be exposed to the elements, isolated from their "pack."
> 
> I don't think there are many dogs that would prefer being left in a kennel at night instead of inside the house...and because of this, if one cannot allow their pet to live in the house, they have no business buying one in the first place.



I want you to PROVE to me that this dog was...

Outside all the time
Not loved
Not part of the "pack".


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

They went on someone elses property and removed something they didnt own...They are criminals period.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> And how is it possible that a large, spacy outdoor kennel is so horrible but people keep their dogs in a 36 inch crate for 8+ hours a day.... *can somebody please tell me the logic behind that*?
> 
> I'd much rather have my dogs outside, in a spacy kennel than having them cramped in a **** crate all day long, every day of the week to "keep them safe".


Unfair question/logic. Two of mine are crated four days per week for about 8 hours, broken up in the middle. 

They're safe there. The temperature is moderated. No one will steal them or let them loose or poison them.

Most importantly, when I come home, they are out of the crate. I don't believe the person in this article just uses this space when absent. She even says in the article, "I looked out the back window and he wasn't there." (paraphrased). She didn't say, "I got home from work to get him out and he was gone."

No need to take it personal and slam the craters. ("Spacy outdoor kennel vs **** cramped crate)


The letter is well written and I believe, comes from someone who honestly cares.

I doubt they took the dog without knowing the living habits of the dog. I seriously doubt they drove by once, saw an outdoor dog and ran home to write a well crafted letter and rushed back to steal it.

It surely took more time than that. Shelter does seem sufficient, but again, I'd bet the dog was in that shelter far too long and in all conditions. Someone was paying attention.

In spite of all of that, no one had the "right" to steal the dog. Theft is theft.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Pryght said:


> IMO, if a person loves their dog, they will find a place for it in their house. They will not force it to be exposed to the elements, isolated from their "pack."
> 
> I don't think there are many dogs that would prefer being left in a kennel at night instead of inside the house...and because of this, if one cannot allow their pet to live in the house, they have no business buying one in the first place.



:help:

Oh good grief. Than mankind has no business in owning horses either, or do you think they should live in the house too because they are just as much pack animals as dogs. 

If a German Shepherd can't withstand the elements than there is something wrong. As a matter of fact I believe that most of the Allergies the breed has is manmade. We coddle them, humanize them and then we wonder why we have the problems we have. 

German Shepherds are working dogs with a double layered coat which is there for them to withstand the elements. As a matter of fact, show me one Shepherd that doesn't prefer outside when it's cold. I have yet to see one. 

Also, if they are out there over night, what's wrong with that? It gives them a break from all the craziness in the household and yes, dogs do want to be alone too. 

Crazy world
*
Crate Training 8 + hours a day* = Oh you are sooo responsible and keep your poor baby safe from all those evil things in the world

*Outdoor Kennel* = how dare you keep your dog outside. you have no business in owning a dog you irresponsible dog hater

Oh the irony...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> *Crate Training 8 + hours a day* = Oh you are sooo responsible and keep your poor baby safe from all those evil things in the world
> 
> *Outdoor Kennel* = how dare you keep your dog outside. you have no business in owning a dog you irresponsible dog hater
> 
> Oh the irony...


This is offensive.

This is not a pro/anti crate issue.

You have the right to decide the best for YOUR dogs, as I do mine. I choose to crate. Last several days here have been high 90's and high humidity. No way in hades would I let my dog be outside all day in those temps.

I guess I coddle!


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

I'm sure owners who keep their dogs outside feel something called cognitive dissonance...a sense of anxiety or guilt that what they are doing to their pet is wrong. In order to control these feelings of guilt, they attempt to justify their decision by thinking about how happy and well cared for their pets are and how there are some other dogs in a worse position than their pet...

When they interact with their neglected pets, they see the dog smiling and tail wagging, and they probably assume that the dog is ALWAYS this happy, even though the pet only experiences this brief happiness when they are in close proximity to their owner. The owner doesn't acknowledge the hours that the dog is left outside in solitary confinement, staring in the distance, disconnected from those who claim to love them. Soon the owner wholly convinces themselves that the dog is happy with its current station in life, ignoring how much happier the dog would be if it had much more access to the family via living indoors.

At the end of the day, it is more likely that their pets would be MUCH HAPPIER if they lived inside with the rest of the family. 



GSDolch said:


> HOW do you know that the dog was not loved? You DON'T you only assume because the dog is outside. My uncles had hunting dogs, they were never in the home, they were outside in kennels. They were hunting dogs, and they did go hunting with them (birds/racoons/etc) and they were better cared for than a lot of dogs that are "inside" dogs.
> 
> Gotta say I agree with selzer and mrs.k, those people need to be caught and charged. The only place their head was in was their own selfish tendencies and assumptions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stealing is wrong...full stop.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Pryght said:


> ...a person has no business purchasing a dog if they are going to keep it outside, alone, 23+ hours a day.


I have an LGD (livestock guardian dog). He lives outside 24/7, with the goats and poultry. That is his job, to protect them from predators, and he can't do it if he's inside the house.

I dare someone to steal him because they felt "sorry" for him being an outside dog. His last owner tried to make a housedog out of him, and he chewed through doors and windows trying to get out. These dogs are not meant to be confined to the indoors.

He is loved, cared for, and happy at our farm.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

chelle said:


> This is offensive.
> 
> This is not a pro/anti crate issue.
> 
> ...



I just find it ironic. Tell me the difference. The dogs are away from their pack, secluded but because it's indoors, it's no issue but have the dog outside locked up in a kennel and all of a sudden it's neglect. 

Sorry, but to me it's one and the same thing. The dogs are locked up. It has nothing to do with pro or anti crating. If you take offense in that, I have not personally attacked you. If you are a responsible owner you don't have to be offended because I'm not talking about you or any other responsible person. 

I just find it very ironic that a dog, that is in an outdoor kennel, while it's owner is at work, is neglected whereas a dog crated in the house is kept safe from it's environment. 

That's all I'm trying to say.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Pryght said:


> I'm sure owners who keep their dogs outside feel something called cognitive dissonance...a sense of anxiety or guilt that what they are doing to their pet is wrong. In order to control these feelings of guilt, they attempt to justify their decision by thinking about how happy and well cared for their pets are and how there are some other dogs in a worse position than their pet...
> 
> When they interact with their neglected pets, they see the dog smiling and tail wagging, and they probably assume that the dog is ALWAYS this happy, even though the pet only experiences this brief happiness when they are in close proximity to their owner. The owner doesn't acknowledge the hours that the dog is left outside in solitary confinement, staring in the distance, disconnected from those who claim to love them. Soon the owner wholly convinces themselves that the dog is happy with its current station in life, ignoring how much happier the dog would be if it had much more access to the family via living indoors.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is more likely that their pets would be MUCH HAPPIER if they lived inside with the rest of the family.


Gotta say, you take the prize for most judgmental and assumption making.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. You really think you know it all....?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I just find it ironic. Tell me the difference. The dogs are away from their pack, secluded but because it's indoors, it's no issue but have the dog outside locked up in a kennel and all of a sudden it's neglect.
> 
> Sorry, but to me it's one and the same thing. The dogs are locked up. It has nothing to do with pro or anti crating. If you take offense in that, I have not personally attacked you. If you are a responsible owner you don't have to be offended because I'm not talking about you or any other responsible person.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Nothing wrong with kenneling a dog while at work or away from the house. And I found nothing offensive towards you, Chelle, in anything Mrs. K said.

There is nothing wrong with being kenneled outside. I take my dog to work when it's cool enough and leave her in the car. Is that mean? Some ppl think so, but she gets taken out on my breaks, we go for walks and play at lunch.

I find it more than creepy...how long were they "caring" people watching the house? I would be looking at PETA and other fanatical groups. Have other dogs gone missing in the area? Was this a one time thing? Then it could be neighbors that did it. Just plain creepy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is also the golden middle....a dog that can live in a house without being crated so they can roam freely thruout the day. I know so many dogs are destructive, but somehow I'm batting 3 for 3 and I've had no problems letting 3 dogs out unsupervised in my home for the day. They probably sleep the whole time we're gone.

They are all crate trained however, and tomorrow will be crated when we have a painter come in. It will be a bad, cramped day for my pack tomorrow!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pryght....did you steal the dog?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I"m batting 1 for 3 Jane. Sierra will be great for weeks and then decide to destroy the house and she's 5 years old. She is crated during the day and I wish the kennel was cleaned out so she could be outside! at least it would be more interesting and more room. Banshee and Bandit used to destroy the house. Bandit ate the couch...the whole couch. Jax is the only one that has never been destructive.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

It is not a matter of humanizing as much as it is a matter of empathizing with our pets. Do you have the ability to take their perspective? Do you ever imagine how they feel, what they think, etc? 



Mrs.K said:


> :help:
> 
> If a German Shepherd can't withstand the elements than there is something wrong. As a matter of fact I believe that most of the Allergies the breed has is manmade. We coddle them, humanize them and then we wonder why we have the problems we have.
> .


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

No, are you the neglectful dog owner?



Jax08 said:


> Pryght....did you steal the dog?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> I just find it ironic. Tell me the difference. The dogs are away from their pack, secluded but because it's indoors, it's no issue but have the dog outside locked up in a kennel and all of a sudden it's neglect.
> 
> Sorry, but to me it's one and the same thing. The dogs are locked up. It has nothing to do with pro or anti crating. If you take offense in that, I have not personally attacked you. If you are a responsible owner you don't have to be offended because I'm not talking about you or any other responsible person.
> 
> ...


That isn't the comparison I was making. The key to it is if the dog (dog in article) is only in the enclosure for the owner's time away. Honestly, I doubt it very much but the truth is none of us know either way.

I'm not against dogs being outdoors with some caveats, of course. Proper securement. Not major temperature extremes. (100 in summer and -10 here in winter are not unusual.) I am against them being some sort of backyard fixture to feed, water and look at. I know that's not your dogs, but it is the life of many dogs. Again, I suspect that's the life of the dog in the article, for reasons mentioned before.

I've been considering installing a run myself for when I'm away short periods and the weather isn't ridiculous. My home is far from the road, so random people wouldn't be walking by. No one would hear them bark if they did. I have a decent setup for that, but not everyone does. Include that in my caveat list above.

I do tend to get a touch offensive when people come across as anti-crate. It is simply the best scenario for two of my four right now. I've been driving home at lunch for nearly a year now to make sure they get some stretch time. I care. It would actually be easier for me to put them in the back yard, but without proper containment, and this string of very hot weather, I just don't think they'd be better off.


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## Charmander52 (Oct 21, 2011)

The thief/thieves *didn't *have any right to take that dog. It's in the US law and I've heard that officials frown on vigilantes. If the person/people were so concerned about the dog, they should have tried to document some of these concerns instead of taking matters into their own hands. Obviously Animal Control didn't find anything wrong with the way he was treated the... 3? I think it said three times they checked out the situation.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I have a German Shepherd that absolutely HATES being in the house, and in fact my terriers would MUCH rather be outside, and if I could trust them they would be!! I feed the best food money can buy, my dogs ride the trails with me and my horses and they get to spend a lot of time with me when I am outdoors , even Gavin my showdog cries and whines to go out and hang in the barn with the other dog, I'm sorry I have to work to provide my dogs and horses and me with a very nice house and lifestyle, instead of being home 24/7 to "properly" love my dogs, and I REFUSE to crate them all day like a hamster, if some self righteous _person _stole my dogs because they weren't living the life they thought they should I would prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, _(***removed by MOD***)_!!!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

chelle said:


> This is offensive.
> 
> This is not a pro/anti crate issue.
> 
> ...



Yes but the difference is those of us negligent owners who kennel or gasp! keep dogs in our yard are accused of not loving our dogs, it's absolutely ridiculous. You prefer a crate, fine, I won't criticize your choice or right, our choice gets a 10 page diatribe of dangers and risks and emotional ruin. I know one thing, not one of my dogs would prefer a crate for hours over their comfy kennels or yard.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Living in the next county, I know that AC in these rural area's will be a bit cautious when it comes to confiscation. Unless they see downright abuse or the dog is deathly ill...there will be no action taken. This recent case(neglect charges of the AC director herself) is just one of many. And the 350 dogs that were taken in this story/AC had been to the home, but the owners hid things from them until it got so far out of hand, AC had no clue what they were stepping in. 
Owners who have had AC called on them usually have it done for a reason? Even if it was this person calling, there must have been some justification in calling.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> Gotta say, you take the prize for most judgmental and assumption making.
> 
> I'm not even sure how to respond to this. You really think you know it all....?




Yes see , dogs are much happier laying in the same position for hours unable to crap if they need to, when the owner comes home the dog is so happy to get to stretch their legs, the owner assumes its from being so grateful for being protected from a myriad of hypothetical dangers that they assume the dog loves its crate.

Lunacy is contagious.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pryght said:


> No, are you the neglectful dog owner?



Yup...that's me. I beat children and kick dogs while they are unmercifully kenneled in a large run where they have to watch the world go by.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Living in the next county, I know that AC in these rural area's will be a bit cautious when it comes to confiscation. Unless they see downright abuse or the dog is deathly ill...there will be no action taken. This recent case(from an AC director) is just one of many. And the 350 dogs that were taken in this story/AC had been to the home, but the owners hid things from them until it got so far out of hand, AC had no clue what they were stepping in.
> Owners who have had AC called on them usually have it done for a reason? Even if it was this person calling, there must have been some justification in calling.


Y



You know Jane sometimes people just have their own strong opinions they feel it's their way or the highway, we can't assume anything prompted this action because some wacko took matters into their own hands, most fanatics are like this. I once had some dimwit complain because my horses were eating hay from the ground, like their are feeders in the wild! It's actually HEALTHIER for them to eat from the ground!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Yup...that's me. I beat children and kick dogs while they are unmercifully kenneled in a large run where they have to watch the world go by.


They do get to chase butterflies though?


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

In that case, I feel sorry for your pets and children.



Jax08 said:


> Yup...that's me. I beat children and kick dogs while they are unmercifully kenneled in a large run where they have to watch the world go by.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LARHAGE said:


> Y
> 
> 
> 
> You know Jane sometimes people just have their own strong opinions they feel it's their way or the highway, we can't assume anything prompted this action because some wacko took matters into their own hands, most fanatics are like this. I once had some dimwit complain because my horses were eating hay from the ground, like their are feeders in the wild! It's actually HEALTHIER for them to eat from the ground!


I agree, and the fanatics are dangerous. But we are the voice for the voiceless, children and animals and shouldn't look the other way if we think we see neglect or abuse....fine line, but err on the side of caution and use good judgement. Though sadly, the fanatics are louder.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> They do get to chase butterflies though?


Of course! It's red, has a hole in the middle and used to say Kong on it. lol It used to fly straight too until she ripped the middle out of it. Does that make her an abuser too?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree, and the fanatics are dangerous. But we are the voice for the voiceless, children and animals and shouldn't look the other way if we think we see neglect or abuse....fine line, but err on the side of caution and use good judgement. Though sadly, the fanatics are louder.


100% agree Jane. We need to speak and speak loudly. 

However, I feel stealing a dog that AC has confirmed to be well taken care of only hinders that. Condoning it isn't any better (and I know you aren't condoning it!)


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

In Las Vegas my two were outdoor only. They had an airconditioned dog house, plenty of water, food 2 times a day and got plenty of exercise/hiking/excursions with me. I would NEVER excuse someone stealing MY dogs. Sometimes people cannot keep dogs indoors for cultural reasons but that does not mean that the dogs are uncared for or not considered part of the family. My two are indoors now and wish they could be outside all day but I don't trust the fencing in our yard. So they need constant supervision. It breaks my heart that I took their yard/kennel/lifestyle away from them but in the end we have each other and we'll weather through our circumstances TOGETHER. They need me more than they need their outdoors just like the dog that got stolen needs his rightful owner and vice versa. This debate makes me sad.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> I have a German Shepherd that absolutely HATES being in the house, and in fact my terriers would MUCH rather be outside, and if I could trust them they would be!! I feed the best food money can buy, my dogs ride the trails with me and my horses and they get to spend a lot of time with me when I am outdoors , even Gavin my showdog cries and whines to go out and hang in the barn with the other dog, I'm sorry I have to work to provide my dogs and horses and me with a very nice house and lifestyle, instead of being home 24/7 to "properly" love my dogs, and I REFUSE to crate them all day like a **** hamster, if some self righteous ***person*** stole my dogs because they weren't living the life some***person*** thought they should I would prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, (***removed by MOD***)!!!


Could not have said it any better. You ROCK! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pryght said:


> In that case, I feel sorry for your pets and children.


I didn't say I beat my children.

hmmmm...the vet asked me if he could come back in his next life and be my dog...guess he doesn't feel to sorry for her.:wild:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Yup...that's me. I beat children and kick dogs while they are unmercifully kenneled in a large run where they have to watch the world go by.


Hah! We must be related. Are you my long lost twin sisters because I do the same thing. Beat and Kick'em. NO MERCY! :silly:


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> Yes but the difference is those of us negligent owners who kennel or gasp! keep dogs in our yard are accused of not loving our dogs, it's absolutely ridiculous. You prefer a crate, fine, I won't criticize your choice or right, our choice gets a 10 page diatribe of dangers and risks and emotional ruin. I know one thing, not one of my dogs would prefer a crate for hours over their comfy kennels or yard.


Blankety blank hamster? Goodness. Bleeding heart blankety blank hole? Goodness. Is this directed at me?

Honestly, this is unfair and overly defensive!

Why am I being attacked for crating? 

Did I *ever* call anyone negligent here? (no.) (I alluded to this in regard to the object of the article -- not any person here.)

Did I *ever* say you don't love your dogs? (no.)

Please do not confuse *me* with the other poster.

Do I "prefer" a crate? No. I prefer that four dogs live in harmony in the house all day with no issues. Can I assure this? No. That is why I crate two of them. 

As I stated before, I am really considering installing a nice outdoor run. I'm researching. 

Why I've become the object of anger, and a target on crating is a total mystery to me.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

chelle said:


> Blankety blank hamster? Goodness.
> 
> Honestly, this is unfair and overly defensive!
> 
> ...


You are not attacked Chelle. It's not against you. Please do not take offense in this. :hug:
Larhage is not talking about you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

chelle - nobody is attacking you. Nobody was referring to you. Why are you taking all this so personally?


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

That story is horrible. This actually happened to one of my friends when I was younger. She had two shelties that stayed outside because they didn't do well in the house. A neighbor was upset by that and actually stole the dogs and they were missing for a while. They did get returned, I don't remember the details....

That's quite the bold move to make to go steal someone's dog based on your opinion of it being cared for properly. I think that ought to be left up to the law. Afterall, there are thousands upon thousands of animals that have it much worse, awaiting their deaths in the shelter....unloved. The person oughtta' go let them out instead!!

As a child, I had a dog who lived outside. He spent pretty much his whole life out there and was either tied up or in his 12x12 kennel. He came inside sometimes, but didn't care for it much. He had it a lot better than probably any dog in the neighborhood. I spent a lot of time with him and he got to run freely on 70 acres of land a few times per week and got walked 45 minutes every single day. He pulled us in the sleds in the winter and chased furry critters in the field got brushed and trained several times per week. Every time I went to the sore with my [parents I spend at least a half hour in the 'dog aisle' picking out toys, food and treats for him. He lived like a dog should. If someone judjed how much he was cared for and loved by seeing him out in the yard every single day, they would have probably been dead wrong.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> ...Why are you taking all this so personally?


Because I was quoted in the response. To me, that is a direct response to me.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't think anyone is saying don't crate or that crating is bad. I think they're just trying to draw a comparison between how crating is perceived as "good" by the majority when an outside kennel is perceived as "bad". 

I crate one of my dogs too. I wish I didn't have to but that's just the way it is for now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, chelle, it was a direct response to you but Larhage wasn't attacking you. She is just responding to your post that was already in defensive mode. You went right into that mode when Mrs. K made her first post that was in no way related to you. Nobody attacked you


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Many of the Northern breeds are not real pack oriented and do prefer to be outside(especially when it is cooler out)
> They aren't into their people like a GSD is.


Exactly.

My dog was half Siberian Husky half GSD mix. He didn't really give a rats behind about his 'pack' really. He would take off if he knew he could get away with it. He preferd to be outside. I was astounded with the loyalty of a GSD...absolutley blown away at the loyalty and pack instinct Jackson possessed from the get go compared to my huskyX. There's no way a GSD would do well outdoors and alone. They have a total different mentality. Totally different story.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm a little perturbed that people would even pause to consider whether or not the thieves were really in the wrong. If I suspect that a dog is being abused or neglected then I will contact the appropriate authorities and even present my own documentation if I have it. I would hope and expect that anyone else would do the same if they suspected me. Beyond that I'm not even going to begin to justify to anyone why my dogs are treated the way they are. None of your bleepin business!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think anyone has said the thief had the right to do what they did. It turned into an inside/outside(crate/kennel) debate....but I do think everyone is in agreement that the authorities should be the ones to remove a dog if necessary.
If PETA, HSUS had their way, my parrots would be released into the big blue yonder.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I think it's hard to tell what really happened as far as the dog's care because none of us were there.I do think that keeping dogs outside is ok as long as the animals are provided for properly. I'm not just talking about food/water,but providing companionship for the dog as well. I personally prefer to keep my animals inside,but if I had a dog who really did better outside, I would let them be outside with the proper provisions. Sometimes what's best for the animals isn't always what we would like for them.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Yes, chelle, it was a direct response to you but Larhage wasn't attacking you. She is just responding to *your post that was already in defensive mode*. *You went right into that mode* when Mrs. K made her first post that was in no way related to you. Nobody attacked you


Your perception is different than mine.

I went into no particular mode.

I'm sure they can respond with their sentiments on how *they* perceived my post/s!


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Pryght said:


> I don't think they stole the dog because they wanted one, but rather because they felt sorry for a dog that they viewed as being neglected...as indicated by their note. There is a difference.
> 
> IMO, and I'm sure you will disagree with this...a person has no business purchasing a dog if they are going to keep it outside, alone, 23+ hours a day. I'm not saying they had a right to steal the dog, but I can see where there head is at...


yeah, dogs have lived outside for tens of thousands of years, but today if they aren't in lounging on your couch your an unfit owner????? I think people need to save their ire for the real animal abusers.

The people that took him are thieves plain and simple and I hope they get caught and punished severely. It doesn't matter if you don't like where a dog is kept, as long as it isn't in immediate danger, being starved, beaten or bloodied, it really is none of your **** business. Feel badly for the dog all you want, but when you resort to stealing, i hope you pay and pay dearly


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

Do you feel this way just about animals? IMO, people should treat their animals as they would treat their children; likewise, we should look out for other animals as we should look out for other children.



crackem said:


> It doesn't matter if you don't like where a dog is kept, as long as it isn't in immediate danger, being starved, beaten or bloodied, it really is none of your **** business.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pryght said:


> Do you feel this way just about animals? IMO, people should treat their animals as they would treat their children; likewise, we should look out for other animals as we should look out for other children.


No, I treat my animals like animals. They are not children. In some ways they need more consideration than children and in some ways less. I have great respect for my animals, especially the adult, mature ones that I am very "in tune" with and are protective of me. We are a team and they work very hard. That can't be said of children. The bond with children is entirely different.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

This thread became overly personal. It isn't about anyone here and how they choose to contain their dogs.

It is about a woman who had her dog stolen. Just that simple. None of us know squat other than her dog was stolen. No one disagrees that theft of a dog is not justified. Just because I threw out some thoughts about why that person *may* have felt justified does not mean I support what happened, nor that I do not support outside kenneling of dogs, nor that I think all dogs should be crated.

I didn't deserve the comments about a hamster in a kennel, the "ahole" comments, etc for which I was quoted.

Now -- entertain me for a moment. If someone came here and made a post saying, _"I see this dog neglected and left in a run all day/night, and I am so tempted to take the dog..."_ such a thread *would* get supporters. You all know that. There have been plenty of such threads. Plenty of comments as to how to "steal" the dog, "rehome" the dog, etc.

You know that's true.

Somehow personal feelings on outside dogs came in and created havoc.

It's not about you, so please quit making it about you. It's not about crating, so please quit bashing crating. 

It's about a woman who had her dog stolen. I suppose I should've just said, "OH NO! That's terrible. Off with their heads." .. and left it there. Excuse me for taking it a little further. My thoughts were not applicable to the owners here.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

As is obvious by reading this thread, different people make different types of bonds with their pets. Personally, my bond with my children is similar to that which I have with my dog. IMO, love is love. 

In my mind, this world would be a better place if people loved their pets as much as they love their human family members. 




Liesje said:


> The bond with children is entirely different.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with everyone that stealing the dog was absolutely wrong. I also agree that some dogs would much rather be outside than inside - my lab has preferred outside since he was sick in October. Not sure why he changed.

That said, in my old neighborhood I had some neighbors who would get a puppy, tie it out to a doghouse quite far from their home, and it would NEVER get off the chain again. I mean literally NEVER until it died. They did not walk it, they hardly would pet it, they didn't feed it enough. AC was called many times, but they said it was fine. So when the old dog died and they ran out and got a new puppy and put it on the chain somebody stole it. I don't know who, but one of my other neighbors knew, and told me the dog was in a nice home. To be perfectly honest, I was happy for the puppy. Was it right to steal it? No. But I still was happy for that puppy.

And I am not in any way insinuating that everyone who keeps a dog outside mistreats it. I am talking about one particular case.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Pryght said:


> As is obvious by reading this thread, different people make different types of bonds with their pets. Personally, my bond with my children is similar to that which I have with my dog. IMO, love is love.
> 
> In my mind, this world would be a better place if people loved their pets as much as they love their human family members.


Actually, many people on this forum love their dogs more than they love most people, including me. But it's still a different love. I prefer the companionship of my dogs over the companionship with people, yet I wouldn't have an issue to keep them as outside dogs. They are in and outdoor dogs. Yukon has lived outside most of his life. The first time he lived indoors was when I took over him four years ago. He is eight years now. 

All three of my dogs have in and outdoor access when I am at work. We have a large privacy fenced in yard and they can access it through the Sunroom. Usually I can take them to work but right now I can't. So they have to stay home for eight plus hours but I don't crate them. They don't trash the house, they don't destroy it, they don't terrorize the neighborhood. 

If I had a nice kennel system that we used to have in Germany I would keep them in the kennels overnight or when I'm out of the house.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LaneyB said:


> I agree with everyone that stealing the dog was absolutely wrong. I also agree that some dogs would much rather be outside than inside - my lab has preferred outside since he was sick in October. Not sure why he changed.
> 
> That said, in my old neighborhood I had some neighbors who would get a puppy, tie it out to a doghouse quite far from their home, and it would NEVER get off the chain again. I mean literally NEVER until it died. They did not walk it, they hardly would pet it, they didn't feed it enough. AC was called many times, but they said it was fine. So when the old dog died and they ran out and got a new puppy and put it on the chain somebody stole it. I don't know who, but one of my other neighbors knew, and told me the dog was in a nice home. To be perfectly honest, I was happy for the puppy. Was it right to steal it? No. But I still was happy for that puppy.
> 
> And I am not in any way insinuating that everyone who keeps a dog outside mistreats it. I am talking about one particular case.


Exactly! We are all, as dog lovers, on the lookout for those neglected dogs! This *does* hit me hard, as the guy I took in was such a dog. Tied out on a prong, no less. AC comes by, they see there is food and water and that's good enough. AC isn't the end-all, be-all! Just because the article said AC had come by and not found any issues means less than nothing to me. 

I often over analyze.  I can just see the dog thief driving by this home day after day, seeing the dog alone in his enclosure... and eventually just snapping and stealing it. I can just see that. I can see/ understand the temptation to do that. 



Mrs.K said:


> *Actually, many people on this forum love their dogs more than they love most people, including me*. But it's still a different love. *I prefer the companionship of my dogs over the companionship with people, *yet I wouldn't have an issue to keep them as outside dogs. They are in and outdoor dogs. Yukon has lived outside most of his life. The first time he lived indoors was when I took over him four years ago. He is eight years now.
> 
> All three of my dogs have in and outdoor access when I am at work. We have a large privacy fenced in yard and they can access it through the Sunroom. Usually I can take them to work but right now I can't. So they have to stay home for eight plus hours but I don't crate them. They don't trash the house, they don't destroy it, they don't terrorize the neighborhood.
> 
> If I had a nice kennel system that we used to have in Germany I would keep them in the kennels overnight or when I'm out of the house.


Yup.  (on the bolded)

Sounds like a great set up to me. 

I would love, love, love to not crate the boys. They won't always be... but I just have to for now. Many may laugh at me, but I do it because I love them so incredibly much. I know they won't fight... they won't tear up the house... they won't bother my senior blind girl... they won't pester the kitty or the ornery Shiba.... Ah look at me, justifiying what I do.  I do what I do out of love, not out of laziness or cruelty. That's all, really.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pryght said:


> As is obvious by reading this thread, different people make different types of bonds with their pets. Personally, my bond with my children is similar to that which I have with my dog. IMO, love is love.
> 
> In my mind, this world would be a better place if people loved their pets as much as they love their human family members.


I said the bond is different, not less. In fact I find it disrespectful to my dogs and what they have accomplished and are expected to do to be compared to little children. Children are (or should be) innocent and free of risk and responsibility. That is not true of my dogs. They deserve love and respect on a different level, for different reasons. My dog is my partner, not my child.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> :help:
> 
> Oh good grief. Than mankind has no business in owning horses either, or do you think they should live in the house too because they are just as much pack animals as dogs.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

We differ greatly in our perceptions of pets and children. I tend to focus on their commonalities (of which I see many) whereas you emphasize their differences (of which I acknowledge there are many too). That's ok. As long as they're loved, protected, etc., that's what is important. 



Liesje said:


> I said the bond is different, not less. In fact I find it disrespectful to my dogs and what they have accomplished and are expected to do to be compared to little children. Children are (or should be) innocent and free of risk and responsibility. That is not true of my dogs. They deserve love and respect on a different level, for different reasons. My dog is my partner, not my child.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

To love a dog in the same fashion that you love a child disrespects the dog and may disrespect the child as well. Dogs are animals, and they need to be respected as animals, not as children. Do I think of/refer to myself as momma to them sometimes? Certainly, they understand momma. But I do not treat them like children, and a whole lot of problems happen when people confuse/blur the lines between animal and human when it comes to dogs. 

I have two indoor/outdoor kennel areas. An outdoor kennel with a doggy door into my home. The room where the doggy doors are is open to my living room and my bedroom. My house is not air conditioned other than two room air conditioners on the end rooms of the house, and if everything else is shut up, it does make the house somewhat cooler than outside. 

The puppies are 12 weeks and 4 weeks old. There has been a heat advisory the last couple of days. My kennels are concrete and have sun screens over them. I have to call the puppies in to feed them. They LIKE it outside. Oh, after they eat, they may crash inside, but then they head outside. 

There really is nothing inside my house that my dogs need when I am not there. It is NOT more comfortable than their kennels are, even on hot days, certainly not on cold days. They do not all come in when I come home. I work with some, and do other things with others. But they are all females, and leaving them free to roam my house together would be an invitation for a blood bath. They are animals, not humans.

There is another thing too. And that is the canine body is built to withstand the elements. But if we put them in an artificial environment, like 68 degrees, when outside it is 30 or 20 or 10 or lower, then the dog may never grow the coat it needs to withstand the harsher temperatures. If your dog is used to 68, taking them for a 45 minute walk in 10 - 20 degree weather might be very hard on the dog. If the dog is accustomed to the outdoor temperatures and has proper shelter, the grow a good coat, and they manage the weather great given they are not confined in such a way that there is no shade, no dry enclosed spot to retain body heat, or no sufficient water. 

In general, our dogs will hang out on linoleum or tile floors, or as close to a cooling source that they can find. They LOVE snow. They act like puppies, running and jumping and rolling in it. When I let my critters out of their kennels, they do not make a bee-line to the door. They rush out into the field to run and play in grass. When they are kenneled, they have a clean and comfortable room as big as any in my house all for their own, with a bucket of water they can drink and they can eliminate whenever they need to. They can move around, stretch, run, bitch and the bitch next to them, etc. They do not feel isolated or alone. And they work good for me when I have them out. 

I do not disrespect them by putting on to them human expectations. I understand that they feel emotions, and those emotions are like human emotions, but raw, less developed, possibly more deeply felt. Canine jealousy is a force to contend with, the green gene. They can feel lonely, bored, anxious, among others. But they seem to do a lot better when they have clear boundaries, good discipline, and a predictable schedule, whether they are in or outside, I do not think it makes a difference.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sue I've often oogled at your setup!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It depends on the dog. I've had outside dogs who preferred that, and were inside at night, either in the garage or a laundry room, depending on where we lived. I've had other dogs that crave human companionship and prefer to be with us in the house most or all of the time. And I've had dogs that liked both, sometimes outside, sometimes inside. I let the dog tell me what it wants. My dogs now all want to be with me, so they are.

This is theft. If something was wrong, they could call animal control and let them handle it. You don't take someone else's property, no excuses.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> It depends on the dog. I've had outside dogs who preferred that, and were inside at night, either in the garage or a laundry room, depending on where we lived. *I've had other dogs that crave human companionship and prefer to be with us in the house most or all of the time. And I've had dogs that liked both, sometimes outside, sometimes inside. I let the dog tell me what it wants. My dogs now all want to be with me, so they are.*
> 
> This is theft. If something was wrong, they could call animal control and let them handle it. You don't take someone else's property, no excuses.


Great point. If the dog prefers an indoor existence, but is not allowed, I can't help but have an issue with that. Some dogs do crave that human companionship. I am bringing personal experience into this, as Tucker was always outside and now? Oh no. He does not want to be outside alone. He loves being inside. To try to make him an outside dog now? It would truly be a cruel act.  He loves being part of the family. He loves being in the house. If he didn't? If he preferred outdoors? I would accomodate that as well.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

Technically, neither did I. 

Though I do find that joking about animal and child abuse to be particularly distasteful...but to each their own.



Jax08 said:


> I didn't say I beat my children.
> 
> hmmmm...the vet asked me if he could come back in his next life and be my dog...guess he doesn't feel to sorry for her.:wild:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> There is another thing too. And that is the canine body is built to withstand the elements. But if we put them in an artificial environment, like 68 degrees, when outside it is 30 or 20 or 10 or lower, then the dog may never grow the coat it needs to withstand the harsher temperatures. If your dog is used to 68, taking them for a 45 minute walk in 10 - 20 degree weather might be very hard on the dog.


My dog is an "indoor" dog. She does enjoy spending time outdoors, but generally does not stay outdoors for long periods, unless I am outside too. However she has never had a problem with the cold weather and if I let her she'd stay out in the yard for a long time in the winter, and she loves to lay out in the snow and never acts cold or seems to have any trouble keeping warm in the winter.
The summer heat is another matter though, and although she does also like to lay out in the sun in the hot weather too, I am careful about her exercising in the heat and humidity. Well, both of us really-- I don't like to exercise when it's in the 90s myself.

I would not leave my dogs outside when I am not home because I just don't feel it's safe. I live in the city and there are too many unknown factors. That's also why I don't leave my dogs outside unsupervised for long periods when I'm home either. My dogs are not crated 8+ hours of the day, actually my dogs haven't needed to be crated, and they're also never left alone that long either. I doubt being in the yard would make much of a difference vs. the house when I'm not home since none of my dogs have ever found the yard to be a fun place to run around or were really ones to run around and play by themselves when I wasn't home.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I like my animals to be animals, I like that my dogs enjoy being dogs not furry children, I marvel in their deep instincts that are still so ingrained and their distinct breed charachteristics, I love dogs and all they represent, I don't want them being my little children, my dogs are happy confident dogs, not one has seperation anxiety or nerve issues despite our isolated living and me being gone several hours a day, I guess I resent the notion some have that by spending time alone outside a dog is neglected and not part of the family, maybe my dogs are weird, they enjoy looking for lizards and mice, they enjoy lying in the cool of the barn isles, they love sunning themselves on top of the hay bales, and I don't have to be with them, just like I have my pleasures that don't involve them.

I used to board my horses years ago before I had property, I thought keeping them like a hothouse flower was beneficial to them and the epitome of really taking good care of them, a nice private box stall no bites or kicks from the other horses etc.. Then when I bought my
property I arranged it so they could live like horses, able to scratch each other and play and chase each other, they have never been healthier and happier, I believe in letting animals be animals, I love animals for the creatures they are, not needy little furry children. I enjoy my dogs snuggling with me as we watch TV, but I enjoy watching them play and hunt outside, and if they tell me they want to go outside I let them, and I don't chaperone them, they can go enjoy themselves on their own, this is how WE like it.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with the dog being kept outside. I can assume the dog got a lot of interaction with kids.. We have dogs that live outside in 20x20 50% covered kennels, they are well taken care of and get inside time and sleepovers inside, otherwise they are outside because they are working dogs or all the dogs don't get along together. In the dog world, we get people who think it's totally okay to steal another persons dog. Steal it away from it's owner, it's companions.. We get people who think my dog needs 3000 sqft of space and a big back yard to be happy. We get people who think all dogs are happier having a litter of puppies, or a dog 'friend'. I've put dogs in the same kennel during the day, they play for a few hours and I think they'd prefer to be alone after a while. And whos to say the house is colder than outside? You do run the risk of having your dogs stolen, whether onlookers think it's abuse, or they want a nice dog. I hope the dog is returned, however I don't think whoever stole the dog is going to fess up because they don't want to get charged or anything.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> I like my animals to be animals, I like that my dogs enjoy being dogs not furry children, I marvel in their deep instincts that are still so ingrained and their distinct breed charachteristics, I love dogs and all they represent, I don't want them being my little children, my dogs are happy confident dogs, not one has *seperation anxiety or nerve issues* despite our isolated living and me being gone several hours a day, I guess I resent the notion some have that by spending time alone outside a dog is neglected and not part of the family, maybe my dogs are weird, they enjoy looking for lizards and mice, they enjoy lying in the cool of the barn isles, they love sunning themselves on top of the hay bales, and I don't have to be with them, just like I have my pleasures that don't involve them.
> 
> I used to board my horses years ago before I had property, I thought keeping them like a hothouse flower was beneficial to them and the epitome of really taking good care of them, a nice private box stall no bites or kicks from the other horses etc.. Then when I bought my
> property I arranged it so they could live like horses, able to scratch each other and play and chase each other, they have never been healthier and happier, I believe in letting animals be animals, I love animals for the creatures they are, not needy little furry children. I enjoy my dogs snuggling with me as we watch TV, but I enjoy watching them play and hunt outside, and if they tell me they want to go outside I let them, and I don't chaperone them, they can go enjoy themselves on their own, this is how WE like it.


Live and let live? Why be so angry?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

When my dogs go outside, they're not running around the yard whooping it up. Most of the time when Bianca goes out, all she does is just lays down out there until she comes back inside. 

I do "chaperone" my dogs to some extent, but that does not mean I don't allow them to be dogs. It's mostly because I don't trust people. 
I don't live out in the middle of nowhere. Where I live, we share a chain link fence with other peoples' yards on both sides, and in the back is a public alley. I have had things stolen out of my yard before. I also lock my gates, but that doesn't always stop people. I don't live in a bad neighborhood, but it's still the city.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The purpose for my kennels is safety for my dogs, first and then keeping them comfort. 

If the neighborhood was such that my dogs were safer inside my home than outside of it, they would be inside. 

The first consideration is definitely where you live and if it is safe to keep a dog outside. 

You can never be 100% confident that there will never be something negative happen to your dog. But some places warrant different safety measures. 

If it is safer to keep the dogs inside, then keep the dogs inside.

If it is safer for the indoor dogs to be crated, crate them. Much better than coming home to a bad dog fight, or a dog that chewed through a wire, or a dog that went through a window to get outside.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> The purpose for my kennels is safety for my dogs, first and then keeping them comfort.
> 
> If the neighborhood was such that my dogs were safer inside my home than outside of it, they would be inside.
> 
> ...


Yup yup yay yay thanks for cutting thru the other stuff. 

At the end of the day, it is truly about the best, safest, healthiest choice. We all love our dogs. That's why we're here. That's also why I sometimes want to pluck my eyeballs out when dog lovers fight like this.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> I like my animals to be animals, I like that my dogs enjoy being dogs not furry children, I marvel in their deep instincts that are still so ingrained and their distinct breed charachteristics, I love dogs and all they represent, I don't want them being my little children, my dogs are happy confident dogs, not one has seperation anxiety or nerve issues despite our isolated living and me being gone several hours a day, I guess I resent the notion some have that by spending time alone outside a dog is neglected and not part of the family, maybe my dogs are weird, they enjoy looking for lizards and mice, they enjoy lying in the cool of the barn isles, they love sunning themselves on top of the hay bales, and I don't have to be with them, just like I have my pleasures that don't involve them.
> 
> I used to board my horses years ago before I had property, I thought keeping them like a hothouse flower was beneficial to them and the epitome of really taking good care of them, a nice private box stall no bites or kicks from the other horses etc.. Then when I bought my
> property I arranged it so they could live like horses, able to scratch each other and play and chase each other, they have never been healthier and happier, I believe in letting animals be animals, I love animals for the creatures they are, not needy little furry children. I enjoy my dogs snuggling with me as we watch TV, but I enjoy watching them play and hunt outside, and if they tell me they want to go outside I let them, and I don't chaperone them, they can go enjoy themselves on their own, this is how WE like it.


 bravo! Applause. Standing ovation! Encore!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> Yup yup yay yay thanks for cutting thru the other stuff.
> 
> At the end of the day, it is truly about the best, safest, healthiest choice. We all love our dogs. That's why we're here. That's also why I sometimes want to pluck my eyeballs out when dog lovers fight like this.


Its not a fight. Everyone is just discussing "Loudly" their opinions. It's kinda like a family get together. :lurking:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Even if it was this person calling, there must have been some justification in calling.


Just catching up on this whole thread. Wow guilty until proven innocent. The new American way.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

shepherdmom, calling AC is not saying one is 'guilty'. 
If people see something they feel should be checked, then calling is the only way it should be handled, not taken into that persons hands and dealt with. Trevon Martins case as an example. 
What would you do if you saw a dog neglected or possibly abused? Steal the dog, report it to AC or put blinders on? Calling AC is the right thing to do, IMO. I am not a zealot AR person, but I will use my voice for the ones that can't.
There was a very, very skinny mastiff in my neighborhood(outside dog/ lived in garage) and the next door neighbor called AC on the owner due to that dogs condition. It could have been medical, and I don't know that I would have called AC due to the dogs appearance, I'd rather talk w/ the owner first. Though that owner was known for getting dogs, having them run away, replacing dog with another over and over, so track record of proper ownership was not good. AC has been there a few times since, I don't know why.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

These criminals should be hunted down and prosecuted. How dare they steal a family's dog because they felt they could take justice into their own hands? For those that condone this action, how do you justify the idea of vigilante justice? When is it justifiable? (Only when you agree with the cause? )

By fall, I will have some indoor/outdoor runs set up. All of the dogs will be rotated indoors and outside at that time. I do not feel an ounce of regret about this set up. It's simply NOT feasible to have multiple dogs have free run of the house. It's even not a great situation to have multiple dogs living in a house. Think about your favorite breeders. Most of them will have 5-10+ dogs. Maybe more if it's whelping season and there are puppies around. How can that many dogs live comfortably in an average household? Unthinkable. What do you think about breeders keeping their dogs in kennels and dog runs? What about shelters and rescues? Are they being cruel? Should we remove dogs from breeders as well? I mean their dogs are outside with periods of human interaction. Or does it only matter if it is in someone's backyard vs. a "professional"?

It's not the space...it's how the dog is treated and if his needs are met. Don't immediately assume that if a dog is outside that it is neglected or mistreated. Judgmental and very erroneous to make that assumption.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I have to wonder if hte same ppl that called the AC on these ppl 3 times are the ones that stole that dog. That is where I would start.



Pryght said:


> As is obvious by reading this thread, different people make different types of bonds with their pets. Personally, my bond with my children is similar to that which I have with my dog. IMO, love is love.
> 
> In my mind, this world would be a better place if people loved their pets as much as they love their human family members.


No, the bond with my dogs is NOT the same that it is with my children. I love my dog. I spoil her. She sleeps next to my side of the bed, gets a raw diet and supplements, I take her everywhere I can and play and train with her daily. I buried my brother who was 16 years younger than me. I watched my mother with dead eyes scream in the funeral home. The pain associated with burying a person who should have buried you is something that stops you in your tracks. I've buried my animals and cried and grieved. I can't imagine burying one of my own children.



chelle said:


> I'm sure they can respond with their sentiments on how *they* perceived my post/s!



You are correct, Chelle. I apologize for responding to you.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

_I've buried by animals and cried and grieved. I can't imagine burying one of my own children.
_
This is very true. In my job I dealt with parents losing children regularly, and it doesn't compare to losing a pet. Not even remotely.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Solid point Michelle. My heart still aches for every pet I've lost. But I feel for humans differently and when I lose someone dear to me, that pain is a different ache. Different does not mean worse, but humans and animals _are_ different.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm one of those misfits who prefer the company of dogs to that of my fellow man. And with that being said, I detest people who set themselves up as judge and jury!!! I personally hope these arrogant thieves are caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!!! Personally I can't understand anyone trying to justify this type of criminal behavior. You see a problem? Call Animal Control and let them hande it!!! 

A hundred years ago, even less, most homes had no electricity and YIKES none had air conditioning, yet man and beast somehow survived. I saw nothing in the report that indicated that dog was not loved, was not in good physical condition or was being mistreated in any way. The pen looked clean, it was fairly good sized, it had a tarp for shade and nothing was said to indicate that the dog was being neglected in any way. Nothing was said as to how much time the family spent with the dog. It looked to me like the family was quite upset over him being stolen, certainly the little kid was.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Agree Gayle! And I just asked somebody if they remember what we did "pre - air conditioning" age! lol I can't remember how I stayed cool. Fans, I guess!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I think where people took offense to this post, certainly me, is the tone of justification for the dog being stolen because it was an outside dog, that they can't possibly care about it because of that, a lot of us have outside dogs, I grew up with our dogs outside, there were 6 of us kids and my brother had severe asthma, but such was our love of dogs that we had them anyway and kept them in the backyard, those dogs were loved as much as any dogs on this earth, there is not one point in my life that I can't recall the dog who was at my side at each and every turn in the road. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping dogs in the yard, same as there's nothing wrong with keeping them inside, it's the significance of that dog's life to the owner, that's what determines the level of care and love it will receive.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree, people can be over the line as far as what they think is minimum care. I had someone on my case once because I did not want to spend thousands of dollars to install central AC in a home that I did not own. We rented a home without AC (and now own an older home with AC that barely works) and apparently to some this is cruel to dogs even though I survive just fine when it's 90+ degrees in my house. My dogs have it better than I do, they can use their time to swim in their pool or lounge in the basement (naturally cool) or in front of a fan while I'm taking care of their needs and taking care of my household in the heat and humidity.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think where the difference comes is that those who have outside dogs NOW are dog people - they do everything that is necessary to give the dog the interaction that an outside dog needs. 
Those who remember having dogs as kids? They remember that they spent their days outside playing and the dog got lots of attention that way. 
This is what kids think "go outside and play" means today









Is that true of every household? No but unless you are an outdoor family the dog is going to spend all of it's time alone. 
I know that our outside dogs growing up didn't get the attention they should have. They were noisy and they jumped on you and knocked you down. Mom didn't like us going out there so the only exercise they got was every couple weeks when mom would let them off the chain. They would race around, tear up the yard, knock everyone down and then disappear into the woods for several hours. Mom would get mad because they ran off and vow to never let them loose again.

All of my neighbors here have outside dogs. A few are on chains or in pens. They see people when someone remembers to come out and feed them. One neighbor uses big feeders and several 5 gal buckets for water so that they only have to "mess with" the dog every couple weeks. They have a self-feeder that will hold a 20lb bag of food. The others are all roamers so they see people whenever they get caught stealing food or knocking over garbage.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> No, the bond with my dogs is NOT the same that it is with my children. I love my dog. I spoil her. She sleeps next to my side of the bed, gets a raw diet and supplements, I take her everywhere I can and play and train with her daily. I buried my brother who was 16 years younger than me. I watched my mother with dead eyes scream in the funeral home. The pain associated with burying a person who should have buried you is something that stops you in your tracks. I've buried my animals and cried and grieved. I can't imagine burying one of my own children.



*nods* I buried my mother two years ago. It was a sudden death, not of natural causes, she left behind myself, my sister who is now 14 and my brother who is now 16. I love my animals, I have cried for them when they passed and worried about them when they are sick, but the pain of them passing is incomparable to the pain of my mother passing.

Love is universal, but not all love is the same. My love for my husband is different from my kids, my love for my kids is different from my animals, etc etc. I find it kinda creepy that someone implies I should love them all the same.

My own spiritual path holds some animals as sacred, this does not mean that they are not treated as animals. Yes, people are learning that animals are more capable of things we didn't think they were, BUT that doesn't mean that they are still on the same level as people. They love and feel also, but its not the same as we do.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Agree Gayle! And I just asked somebody if they remember what we did "pre - air conditioning" age! lol I can't remember how I stayed cool. Fans, I guess!


We don't have Air Condition in the house. In Germany we don't have Air Condition in the house. It's something very rare. You won't even find a single apartment that has it and our dogs survive even when it's a 100 degrees outside... they do just fine. If they are used to adjust to the weather and have enough water they will be okay as long as they can sweat it out and stay hydrated and have shade.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Hm, the OP hasn't argued with me about keeping my Akbash Dog outside with his goats 24/7. I was kind of hoping she would tell me I should be keeping my goats in the house so that the dog could be in the house as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's cooler in Europe, right? What are your average temps? Air conditioning is actually not good for us. Read a study that it makes us fat because our bodies don't have to try to cool down on their own. And it's more of a shock to our system when we go outdoors. People that work at the meat packing plant have been known to pass out in the parking lot because of the shock caused by the difference in temperature. 

We used to go to the beach (lived in Michigan), sit outside in the shade. My grandmother had all her curtains drawn to keep out the sun and it was always nice in there. I just don't remember ever being as "hot" as I get now and I think that has to do with being accustomed to AC rather than being acclimated to our climate.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Hm, the OP hasn't argued with me about keeping my Akbash Dog outside with his goats 24/7. I was kind of hoping she would tell me I should be keeping my goats in the house so that the dog could be in the house as well.


:rofl:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> shepherdmom, calling AC is not saying one is 'guilty'.
> If people see something they feel should be checked, then calling is the only way it should be handled, not taken into that persons hands and dealt with. Trevon Martins case as an example.


Onyx'girl just because somone called ac doesn't mean that there is justification behind it. AC could have been called because it is a feud between neighbors. AC could have been called because some nut case thought that keeping a dog outside was wrong. Just because you have good motives doesn't mean everyone does. 

I once had the sheriff at my door because someone said I was keeping lions on my property?  I had peacocks and other birds, I had a goat and a sheep but lions? To this day I have no idea where that call came from or why. The sheriff looked at my birds had a good laugh and left shaking his head. A while later when dropping my kid off, the bus the bus driver said oh no I can't let you off there is a coyote behind the fence. My daughter said no that's my dog Duffy. The bus driver proceded to give her a lecture on how we shouldn't keep coyotes as pets. She had to call the dog over take his collar off and show her the dog county license before she would believe it was not a wild animal. Same bus driver a couple of months later called in over the radio that there were two dogs stuck together on the indian reservation. We all had a good laugh over that one. 

IMO sometimes smoke it just that. It doesn't necessarily mean there is a fire behind it and it my opinion the person who took those dogs is a criminal and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pryght said:


> Technically, neither did I.
> 
> Though I do find that joking about animal and child abuse to be particularly distasteful...but to each their own.


You are right, it was in poor taste. I asked if you stole the dog because you were parroting exactly what was in the letter. It is rather suspicious and would not be the first time someone posted something as an "anonymous" when in fact they were looking for validation to their actions. It was a valid question. I'm sorry you were offended by it.

I answered you in kind and should not have lowered myself to do that. However, there is no need for you to get nasty and attack me on my children or pets. That is beyond distasteful and way over the line. Especially as it was obvious I was being sarcastic. To each their own. I forgive you and carry no grudge. That is for the universe to sort out, not me.

IMO, the premise that this thread was started on is distasteful. The idea that it is ok to steal and encouraging people to steal is distasteful. The idea that anyone that kennels their dog outside for any period of time is bad and should not have animals is distasteful. The idea that if you don't think of your animals as your children there is something wrong with you is distasteful. Obviously, you feel differently so we'll just have to call a truce and agree to disagree.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> It's cooler in Europe, right? What are your average temps? Air conditioning is actually not good for us.


Depends where you are in Europe; the Southern areas get dang hot during the summer. 

I think you're right about a/c. I can't stand it when I go into the store on a hot summer day and they have the a/c cranked up so high that I actually get cold while I'm inside. Really, 30 degrees temperature difference can't be good for you. 80 degrees feels really nice when it's 100 degrees outside. We keep our house around 80. Unfortunately I have to cool my grooming shop down a bit lower than that, because my clients expect it, and think their dogs will die if it's any warmer than that. 

I have to confess, though, that I don't use a/c in the bathing and drying rooms. On really hot days it can get close to 90 degrees in there, but the dogs are wet when they're in there anyway, and the heat helps them dry faster--as soon as they're dry they come into the air-conditioned room. I keep a close eye on them on hot days and I've never had an animal even close to overheating. I'm especially careful with short-nosed breeds.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I should be keeping my goats in the house .


oh lordie....I'm having bad visions of my 15.3HH quarter horse inside. There goes my china...and windows..and walls....


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

This reminds me a lot of something that happened while we were living in Germany. We were in an apartment on the 2nd floor, as Mrs.K said, no A/C so at times it got pretty miserable. One of the summers had lots of record temps over 100 degrees. Our apartment had a balcony off the living room, next to my computer desk. If I was on the computer (and I was A LOT) I would often leave the door to the balcony cracked so the dogs could go out there. They often preferred to go lay on the cooler tiles and watch the world go by. If it stormed or if we went out, they came inside. If we left the living room they always followed. So it wasn't like they were stuck out there, they were free to come back inside at any time.

One day someone left a letter on the door of our stairwell - not even our personal door, which they could have since the stairwell door didn't lock properly. The wording was very similar to the letter the people left the husky's owners - how dogs are pack animals, that they shouldn't be stuck outside, that we should drop them off at the shelter if we didn't want them inside with us. 

Of course it was an anonymous note so we couldn't explain that the door was always cracked and it was the dogs' choice to be out there...:headbang:


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I like my air conditioning, thank you. It is set at 74, as a matter of fact. Comfy. If you don't like air conditioning, that can be easily remedied! Turn it off! You'll save some money even. Maybe lose weight too?

I never tried to justify anything. Sorry if anyone got twisted knickers. I would love to see an example of the "tone of justification" on this thread.

I'll catch grief for saying this, but I think this was a pretty snarky, jump to conclusions, way overly defensive, self righteous thread.

I could care less if your dogs are outdoors. The people here were never a point of concern. Saying that repeatedly isn't getting the point across, though.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Agree Gayle! And I just asked somebody if they remember what we did "pre - air conditioning" age! lol I can't remember how I stayed cool. Fans, I guess!


I lived in Arizona. We had swamp cooling. My school did not have AC. MY bus did not have AC, my first car did not have AC. We were fine and so were our pets. Before swamp cooling (which does not work during the summer moonsoon season anyway BTW). Many people had big screened in porches you could sleep out on at night and if you hung wet sheets it was kind of like a natural swamp cooler.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> oh lordie....I'm having bad visions of my 15.3HH quarter horse inside. There goes my china...and windows..and walls....


Haha!

I have to confess... we did keep a baby Nigerian buckling in the house for a couple of weeks when we first got him. It was February, pretty cold and wet outdoors, and he'd been kept in a heated barn and wasn't acclimated to the weather. We didn't have any other goat kids his age, and we didn't want to put him out with the big goats by himself--he was tiny--about the same size as our 6 month old kitten. So he was a housegoat for a little while and had our kitten as a playmate. It was really dang cute to watch them play, jumping on and off the furniture and stotting through the house like little deer.

When our senior doe kidded with twins, we put him outside with those babies, and everyone was happy.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

My lab likes to stay in our fenced back yard. I keep the back door to the garage open, and there is a pet door in the garage that goes into the kitchen. I prefer my dog have a choice of going in or out. Since it's been hotter he prefers to be in more. The puppy will be crated until he is trustworthy, and even then he won't be allowed outside unless I am home. We are in a more city-like environment now, and I'm not as comfortable with it as I was in the country. 

I don't love my lab less now that he stays outside more. And I don't love the puppy less because I am crating him. To each his/her own. There is a huge difference between keeping outside or crating and neglect. Huge difference.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I lived in Arizona. We had swamp cooling. My school did not have AC. MY bus did not have AC, my first car did not have AC. We were fine and so were our pets.


Yep, my first apartment didn't have a/c, I remember hanging up wet sheets with a fan behind them, kind of like a swamp cooler!

When I was a kid, our school didn't have a/c. Our bus didn't have a/c. My first car didn't have a/c. When I had to drive long distances on a hot day, I would freeze a water bottle and hold it between my legs as I drove. It worked nicely to cool the blood.

We are pretty spoiled these days.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

chelle - WHO are you even talking to? Where did anyone say they didn't like AC or even mention YOUR AC? I don't even know how you could make that about you and attack ppl on that point. :rofl:


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I grew up in India. Temperatures ranged from 60s at night to well over 100F during the days. Nobody has an AC. Many cars don't even come with AC because they are more expensive. Even "well off" families didn't have AC. Shopping centers, restaurants and hotels had AC, but even then there were signs outside that said "AC hotel" or "non-AC". To this day, I hate the cold. My living environment is almost always 75+, even in winter! It's all what you are used to. If dogs are acclimated to the outside fluxes in temperature, they will be perfectly fine in a wide range of temperatures imo. 

Our dogs always lived outside back then. They had adequate shade, water, shelter, food, human companionship and interaction. I'd love a rebuttal from OP about how this is/was inhumane.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> I grew up in India. Temperatures ranged from 60s at night to well over 100F during the days. Nobody has an AC. .


My favorite college professor was from India. She showed me how the clothes are layered to get the maximum coolness and the materials were chosen for the same purpose. It was very interesting to know the purpose of the design...and the clothes are beautiful!


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

Growing up we didn't have AC, we would let the dogs sleep on the porch as it was cooler outside than inside. My current house has no AC nor can we install a window unit as we have no grounded plugs (antique house with old wiring). The only dog that is melting at the moment is Preston, my parents' collie, who is now used to central air and can't handle the heat. 

On topic: I think that it is disgusting that someone would steal the puppy. I don't care if you don't agree with how someone cares for their dog, approach the owner and have a rational discussion. Just because you think you can give the dog a better life doesn't mean you actually can. How can we guarantee the person who took the pup didn't take the dog to a shelter as they thought it had a better chance with a different owner, or add the dog to a large collection of other dogs? I would look at the neighbors first, how else would someone know how often the dog was outside? This story really upsets me, how far have we fallen as a society that we resort to theft and dog-napping over differences in opinions.What's next? Someone stealing someone's kids because they don't agree with the way they are raised?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Freestep said:


> I have to confess, though, that I don't use a/c in the bathing and drying rooms. On really hot days it can get close to 90 degrees in there, but the dogs are wet when they're in there anyway, and the heat helps them dry faster--as soon as they're dry they come into the air-conditioned room. I keep a close eye on them on hot days and I've never had an animal even close to overheating. I'm especially careful with short-nosed breeds.


Makes sense, but depends on locale. Do that here right now and you'll get what I ended up with: one dog that smells like old cheese and one dog that has hot spots. It's been HOT (90-100) but also *humid* and that's the kicker. The dogs are just NOT drying hence why I'm buying the forced air dryer. Nikon smells and last night I discovered hot spots all over Pan's right side where he presumably was lying in his crate at the dock diving event all weekend. It was hot there and it was breezy and windy but with the humidity it doesn't matter, even stuff that wasn't wet to begin with is now wet.

Our old house and old AC unit doesn't cool very well but it will suck some of the humidity out of the air. We will turn it on later in the summer when it's hot for two weeks at a time and not just a few days. Now it's back in the 70s but still really humid.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> My favorite college professor was from India. She showed me how the clothes are layered to get the maximum coolness and the materials were chosen for the same purpose. It was very interesting to know the purpose of the design...and the clothes are beautiful!


Yea! Isn't it neat? I think it's the same as Saudi men wearing long, flowing, cotton, white robes. It's the fact that it's so incredibly loose fitting. It's really like wearing nothing at all a lot of the time. I would LOVE if we could go back to dressing like we did in India. Covered up lots more, kept you cool and you didn't worry about showcasing that extra lb you packed on during the holidays! 

It's not uncommon to go to beaches in India and see women/girls in full saris or shalwar kameez bathing in the ocean


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

She wore the outfits to school every day! They were beautiful with such intricate embroidery. I just loved the idea of the fit, air flow and material. Who would think that clothes themselves were an engineering feat!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Makes sense, but depends on locale. Do that here right now and you'll get what I ended up with: one dog that smells like old cheese and one dog that has hot spots. It's been HOT (90-100) but also *humid* and that's the kicker.


Ah, yes... we are fortunate to have a dry heat here in NorCal. I also have a dehumidifier in the tub room, so it dries up any moisture that comes from the bathing and blow-drying. I have a hygrometer in there so I always know when to turn the dehumidifier on. During the summer it hovers around 30% humidity, but sometimes goes down as low as 17%--that's when I have to make sure the dogs don't dry TOO fast! Our humidity comes during the winter when it rains a lot, that's when the dehumidifier runs 24/7. When I first bought it several years ago, I was amazed at how it got rid of that musty, wet-dog smell we'd sometimes get in the shop during a rainy spell.

I don't know how groomers deal with it when the weather is hot AND humid.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Caitydid255 said:


> This story really upsets me, how far have we fallen as a society that we resort to theft and dog-napping over differences in opinions.What's next? Someone stealing someone's kids because they don't agree with the way they are raised?


Well said!
A difference in opinion does NOT justify stealing someone else's dog. The thieves used a ridiculous line of reasoning to steal a family's pet. And yes, they are plain and simple thieves. NOT animal justice vigilantes like they make themselves out to be in that obscene letter. If someone can find actual FACTUAL proof that these dogs were being neglected, then I'm happy to hear their side. But the fact is that NOBODY knows the details and from what you see, this dog was properly vetted, cared and sheltered. 

For one, they steal another person's animal. But then they have to twist the knife in the gut by BLAMING the family for their loss. Because if the family were better people and better owners, then the dog wouldn't have had to be "rescued" from the backyard by these thugs. Disgusting. 

If this were my dog, I'd put every cent I had into finding these criminals and getting some justice.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I grew up in India. Temperatures ranged from 60s at night to well over 100F during the days. Nobody has an AC. Many cars don't even come with AC because they are more expensive. Even "well off" families didn't have AC. Shopping centers, restaurants and hotels had AC, but even then there were signs outside that said "AC hotel" or "non-AC". To this day, I hate the cold. My living environment is almost always 75+, even in winter! .


I'm with you. Winter we keep it min 75 inside. Summer we don't run AC we have a swamp cooler that we sometimes turn on in the afternoon if it gets above 90 inside. I HATE cold! Can't wait to someday move back to Arizona again. Nevada is to darn cold for me.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> chelle - WHO are you even talking to? Where did anyone say they didn't like AC or even mention YOUR AC? I don't even know how you could make that about you and attack ppl on that point. :rofl:


I didn't realize I had to address a particular person to make a post?

I didn't realize I wasn't allowed to talk about AC.

Make it about me. 

Attack people?

Michelle, honestly, I once thought you were an incredibly nice person. Something happened along the way to make you dislike me, and you often try to minimize me or cut me in a subtle, but rude, way.

NOW I made it about me.

I digress. Carry on. It's already mostly so off topic it doesn't likely matter.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Well said!
> A difference in opinion does NOT justify stealing someone else's dog. The thieves used a ridiculous line of reasoning to steal a family's pet. And yes, they are plain and simple thieves. NOT animal justice vigilantes like they make themselves out to be in that obscene letter. If someone can find actual FACTUAL proof that these dogs were being neglected, then I'm happy to hear their side. But the fact is that NOBODY knows the details and from what you see, this dog was properly vetted, cared and sheltered.
> 
> For one, they steal another person's animal. But then they have to twist the knife in the gut by BLAMING the family for their loss. Because if the family were better people and better owners, then the dog wouldn't have had to be "rescued" from the backyard by these thugs. Disgusting.
> ...


I can believe that they imagined themselves to be animal justice advocates.

I have a friend who is heavy into animal rights and some of her beliefs are very out there. They seem shared by her friends, as well. She thinks seeing-eye-dogs are enslaved, for instance. They go to hotels and request 'feather free' rooms. I can see someone with this mentality stealing a dog that they believe was neglected.

I actually do sympathize with the idea that a dog kept outside may well be neglected. I get keeping them outside when away as an alternative to crating, or if you go outside all the time, that's fair enough. But if the dog was kept in that kennel with little attention? I can see why someone would rightly believe those are not acceptable living conditions.

As to stealing, it's only stealing if the dog is an object, if it is property. I understand that legally that is exactly what it is, but animals are sentient beings and if indeed it was suffering (we have no idea if it was), then I think removing it is a respectable act, actually.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Chelle - I rarely even respond to your posts for my own reasons. I found your reply more than a bit nasty and it seemed to be in response to my post, thus my question. And believe me...if I want to cut you or minimize you, if I don't like you...I"m not even close to subtle...I'll just say it. I will say, given your responses to me in this thread, that it seems you have some personal issue with me and if so, take it to a PM.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

chelle: I don't think anyone is attempting to attack you or single you out. Most people were peeved because OP made wide generalizations that categorically pointed out that: 



Pryght said:


> IMO, *if a person loves their dog, they will find a place for it in their house. *They will not force it to be exposed to the elements, isolated from their "pack."
> 
> I don't think there are many dogs that would prefer being left in a kennel at night instead of inside the house...and because of this, *if one cannot allow their pet to live in the house, they have no business buying one in the first place.*


That type of all or none thinking () is why I believe members are attempting to reason that many dogs and humans do just fine without AC. I don't think anyone was singling you out for the crate issue either. I know how much time and effort you put into your babies. FWIW, no judgment from me about your methods


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

People - stop the personal-ness of the posts or this thread WILL be closed.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> As to stealing, it's only stealing if the dog is an object, if it is property. I understand that legally that is exactly what it is, but animals are sentient beings and if indeed it was suffering (we have no idea if it was), then I think removing it is a respectable act, actually.


Sure. I can agree with you that animals aren't objects. They are living creatures and should be treated justly. But where do you draw the line on "ownership". Does that mean anyone can come by and take my dog out of my yard because the dog needs to be liberated and he is his "own" being? No. That wouldn't have any realistic place in our society. Sure. In a perfect world, we could have a "freer" situation, but we live in reality and animals are owned. I paid a lot of money for my dogs. If someone takes them, I would be emotionally devastated for one and two, I would be royally peeved that someone stole MY investment. Some of these animals are very expensive, people put a lot of time/effort into them, they are loved and owned by people. Perhaps not the same as owning a car, but you are possessing this creature in some way. In this case, you cannot take something that doesn't belong to yours, no matter how much you feel that it is correct. 

I asked these questions earlier as well:
For those that condone this action, how do you justify the idea of vigilante justice? When is it justifiable? (Only when you agree with the cause? )
What do you think about breeders keeping their dogs in kennels and dog runs? What about shelters and rescues? Are they being cruel? Should we remove dogs from breeders as well? I mean their dogs are outside with only periods of human interaction. Or does it only matter if it is in someone's backyard vs. a "professional"?

For example, I disagree with the philosophy of the Westboro Baptist Church. Could I run over there and "liberate" their minor children? Nope. 
Don't see why it is different for a dog. They raised the dog how they saw fit. There is no justifiable proof that the dog was in distress or neglected. One cannot justify that action, no matter how much he hates that the dog was left outside.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Here's my $.02

No-one has the right to steal anything.

My Corgi-mix, Winnie, LOVES the heat. This past week when it was in the 90's she was laying in the middle of the field, sun bathing while the rest of the dogs were in the shade. I only left them out for a short period of time - except Winnie. She would have stayed out there all day - laying in the sun - if I had let her.

The dogs in my pack that CAN be aloowed to roam the house, do. Those that cannot have very nice accommodations in our basement. Either x-pens or oversized crates.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Sure. I can agree with you that animals aren't objects. They are living creatures and should be treated justly. But where do you draw the line on "ownership". Does that mean anyone can come by and take my dog out of my yard because the dog needs to be liberated and he is his "own" being? No. That wouldn't have any realistic place in our society. Sure. In a perfect world, we could have a "freer" situation, but we live in reality and animals are owned. I paid a lot of money for my dogs. If someone takes them, I would be emotionally devastated for one and two, I would be royally peeved that someone stole MY investment. Some of these animals are very expensive, people put a lot of time/effort into them, they are loved and owned by people. Perhaps not the same as owning a car, but you are possessing this creature in some way. In this case, you cannot take something that doesn't belong to yours, no matter how much you feel that it is correct.
> 
> I asked these questions earlier as well:
> For those that condone this action, how do you justify the idea of vigilante justice? When is it justifiable? (Only when you agree with the cause? )
> ...


I hear you.

I am not justifying this, just to be clear. If the dog was well cared for, it was wrong.

I guess I dont see stealing as the worst thing ever. I see causing suffering as far worse than stealing, and if the dog was neglected (no idea if it was), then it should have been freed.

Difference with kids is you can call CPS. Animal control as others have mentioned doesn't do anything beyond ensuring access to food and water. This is because dogs are regarded as property and our animal protection laws suck. 

I guess I dont mind a bit of vigilante-ism within reason. Whether this was the place for it, I cannot say.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CPS doesn't always help either. Many cases of children dying from abuse because CPS didn't do their job properly.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

But that's the thing. CPS isn't all that effective either. We hear a case every other week about how a child was found chained in the basement or a foster child was brutally abused and CPS had NO clue. That doesn't even count all the cases of physical, sexual and emotional abuse that goes on and CPS has no clue about it. Cases fall through the cracks all the time. 

No system is perfect. AC isn't perfect. If we want more funding for AC or government run animal care institutions, we should start advocating at a local/regional/national level and get some changes implemented. 

But what I don't like is vigilante justice by someone that thinks THEY know best and will justify STEALING a family member from someone else. Perception isn't proof!

And this isn't directed at you at all minerva. Just thinking out loud


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> CPS doesn't always help either. Many cases of children dying from abuse because CPS didn't do their job properly.


The opposite can also happen when they take away a kid prematurely without further investigation but based on hearsay, also as a result of not doing their job properly. 

Going off topic now...


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

The problem is most people can't mind thier own business.
They had NO right to steal the dog. Anyone that has ever had or known a Husky understands they like to be outside. As long as the people tended to the dog, didn't let him roam the neighborhood. 
My dogs spend the days weather permiting outside in my secure yard. They come in at night and sleep in thier own beds.
Last night I caved and put the a/c in the bedroom window. All I had to say was "A/C" and my 2 older dogs beat feet to the bedroom door and sat there. Other wise they stay under the sunroom in the "doggie den" it's cool, they have beds to lie on or they can lay on the concrete.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> But that's the thing. CPS isn't all that effective either. We hear a case every other week about how a child was found chained in the basement or a foster child was brutally abused and CPS had NO clue. That doesn't even count all the cases of physical, sexual and emotional abuse that goes on and CPS has no clue about it. Cases fall through the cracks all the time.
> 
> No system is perfect. AC isn't perfect. If we want more funding for AC or government run animal care institutions, we should start advocating at a local/regional/national level and get some changes implemented.
> 
> ...


Yes I get what you are saying. It's very problematic.

What I am saying is just that:

a) I know some animal rights people who would think it is just fine to steal someone's dog. NOT agreeing with that, but saying I'm not at all surprised by the mentality in the letter, and

b) I can even empathize, if someone actually knew the dog to be suffering and ignored, with the act of stealing it. I can see that as justified, in certain circumstances. It is very true that we dont know whether it was warranted, and that even someone using their own judgment could very easily mis-judge (see 'a' LOL). But I could also see knowing beyond a doubt that a dog is neglected. People here report that all the time, and I have experienced it IRL, and in that circumstance, no idea if this was it, I think it would be right to remove the dog.

But yes the issue of mis-judgment is a huge one. HUGE. I know people who have very skewed perceptions of what animals need and deserve and who think it's their business to insert themselves where I believe objectively they have no business.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

LARHAGE said:


> I once had some dimwit complain because my horses were eating hay from the ground, like their are feeders in the wild! It's actually HEALTHIER for them to eat from the ground!


Unless they are picking up sand and dirt along with their feed, in which case colic is a distinct possibility and there is nothing healthy about colic in a horse.
Sheilah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sheila - could you please explain your comment? My understanding is it healthier for horses to eat closer to the ground and that actually helps prevent colic. I'm not sure if your comment is agreeing or disagreeing with Larhage?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

It is my understanding that the optimum position for a horse to eat is to have their head down, as they would while grazing. They are biologically adapted for that position. Hanging a feeder on the stall wall/fence and feeding them at eye level is not best practices, according to the literature.

However, neither is it a good idea to dump a couple of flakes of hay on the ground and call it good. Depending on the footing, you could be encouraging your horse to ingest a large amount of sand/course dirt along with the hay. Think about how a horse eats. They grab a mouth full and twist their head, spreading the hay. They burrow down, looking for the good stuff. They spread it out, and some of what the hay is resting on is going to get mixed up with what they eventually swallow. That is why so many of us are on a psyllium seed husk supplement schedule. One product is called "Sand Clear", directly addressing why it is used. My horse vet recommends that his clients do a sand test on their horse's poo every few months, so we have an idea of how much is in our horse's gut.

As horse people know, the intestinal system of a horse is very delicate. Get enough of a build-up of sand/shavings/course dirt and you end up with colic and that can be deadly (even with all the strides that have been made in equine care over the past 20-30 years). 

Personally, I like to feed in a self-contained ground feeder (like this: Stall Corner Feeder - Noble Panels). The horse is able to take a biologically appropriate feeding position (head down to ground level), but the feeder's bottom and high sides keeps the hay from being contaminated. I like to have the feeder sitting on stall mats (even for horses living outside 24/7) so when they drop pieces and then go back later to lip them up they aren't also bringing up sand or dirt. 

I guess I am agreeing and disagreeing, both at the same time! 
Sheilah


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

sit said:


> Unless they are picking up sand and dirt along with their feed, in which case colic is a distinct possibility and there is nothing healthy about colic in a horse.
> Sheilah


I'm fully aware of that, my horses eat in tubs on rubber mats, but the first thing they do is toss the hay out of the tub onto the floor, it's a much more natural position for them than eating out of feeders higher than their chest, dirt and mucus naturally drains from their nasal passages while grazing, the number one reason horses get shipping fever and respiratory fevers is the accumulation of irritants in their bodies from not being able to lower their heads and naturally drain their nasal passages. I live in the desert so my horses are on a very strict psyllium regimen. 

I have a Weanling shipping to me in Sept from Tennessee to California, I already booked her a loose box so her hay could be on the floor and her head not being tied up so she can't clear her nose and throat.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Sheilah! That's my understanding on feeding positions as well. We put Red's hay in a feeder (large round bale) but planned on changing that after talking to my farrier and he pointed out a few things regarding round bales. I'll look at the feeder you listed later. Red has had heaves before so I"m pretty picky about what hay he gets and the amount of dust/dirt he's breathing in.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Larhage, I think we are more in agreement than not! Especially about allowing a horse the freedom to clear their nasal passages. But I did want to add my thoughts on the comment that feeding "on the ground" without any qualifiers about the dangers of ingesting debris. The qualifiers are always important for those readers who might not be informed enough to automatically add the qualifier for themselves.

Jax, you're welcome!
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hmmmm. Dogs are not objects, so stealing a dog is not stealing really because that would only be true if it is an object and dogs are sentient beings. And there are worse things than stealing. Hmmmmm.[sorry about the lack of quotes.]

So let me get this straight. Let's say I don't like prong collars. Let's just for the sake of argument say I feel that they are some mid-evil torture device. Now, anyone's dogs I see sporting a prong collar is up for grabs, because it isn't really stealing, is it? It is protecting this poor dog who has no voice. I can write them a note and stick it in their door that says that I took their dog because I see it wearing a prong collar. I'm OK. The authorities will understand that my heart is in the right place and the jury will let me go, and pin a medal on my shirt.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am NOT for stealing/taking (whatever you want to call it) a person's animal(s).

The only way I would even consider it, is, if I saw some poor animal, starved, no shelter/no food/no water/ skin and bones/abused, then I would consider it, ONLY after I reported them to AC and nothing was done (which wouldn't happen with the AC we have

Prongs? Sue you put prongs on your dogs? ) My gosh, evil evil, don't you have some puppies that are up for grabs?? I think I might have to 'steal' a puppy or two to save them from your evil ways LOL..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL. I'd like to steal dogs that are morbidly obese and have nails so long they are curling!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lies, OMG YES, I'd put them on a diet, clip their nails and then send them back home LOL


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Hmmm..our horses in Texas plant, fertilize, cut, bale, load & stack their own hay! There ain't nuttin' delicate 'bout our cowponys! We just haven't been able to teach them to clean up their own manure. But we're working on it!

I'm in south Texas, nearer to the Gulf. We have what you call 'Black Gumbo'. Rarely do we have to worry about sand colic. I never put sand in my stalls because of this. The only sand you'll find on my place is in my arena and round pen. 

When wet, Black Gumbo is either slicker than snot, or it'll suck your shoes right off your feet (or your horses feet!).

I'm the middle of the road - I hang my feed buckets and drop my hay. My horses graze all day in the pastures and are up all night in the barn. I do feed bran to help things along - and I am a constant detective when it comes to horse poop. I'll use shavings in the winter if we're wet - or if I'm getting a horse fit for a show. 

When it comes to taking care of our animals, I think most everyone does the best they can with what they have, keeping in mind experiance and what they've learned along the way.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> LOL. I'd like to steal dogs that are morbidly obese and have nails so long they are curling!


Letting your dog become double it's weight is just as much abuse as letting it starve.
That's the problem (dipping my toe in these treacherous waters here), there has to be some standard of care.
The laws in most areas define those standards of care. As long as you provide for your pet according to the laws which outline those standards, you don't have to "love it" or pet it daily.

Although I can disagree with how people keep their dogs, if they are following the letter of the law, then they are good to go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, people let their kids get double their ideal weight and there is no law against that. I think if we are going to make laws about dogs being overweight, well, it is sad that children are not as important as dogs. 

At the same time, there are a lot of medical conditions that can cause children to be overweight, and well, nobody really wants to see CPS interfere in something that is in many cases cultural and I don't know what else. It is sad, but I think we have to leave the overweight dogs to their owners misguided mercy. We do not have the resources to take care of the animals that are starving to death and severely physically abused and neglected. Oftentimes the best we can do is humanely euthanize. An obese dog will probably have health problems and it may cut months even years off the life span, but they are not in immediate danger of dying. And since we do not seem to be able to handle the dogs that are in immediate danger of dying, we need to focus on them. 

Maybe, I am taking this defensively because Jabba The Hut is weighing in at 5 pounds 8 ounces at 2 weeks, 3 days. The boy can't walk really yet, he is too fat. I don't know what to do. I am not feeding him. He has all ten nozzles and is making full use of all of them. I took pictures this morning, next to his bunny. I need to move them and transport them here though. He is a fatty. I have 5 week old puppies that do not weigh what he weighs. Ick! Somebody better steal this boy for his own good!!!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I haven't read the last few posts - so sorry if this has been mentioned recently.

I've read the comments accompanying the newspaper article and a couple of the comments are from people who know the family involved.

Apparently the dog used to live in the caravan with the family, but they had two more children and there was no room for the dog, so they built the shelter. The only comment apart from that, was they checked on the dog daily, I saw no mention of walks etc. - could have missed it but don't think so - and the shelter was at the front of the property.
________
Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Well, people let their kids get double their ideal weight and there is no law against that.


*While I didn't say I thought laws should be enacted about fat dogs, I merely stated that in my opinion it is abuse as is starving your dog,* I wanted to point out that yes, it is becoming a CPS/abuse situation to have fat kids. It's taking over.
I forget where, or the details but some kid was taken for bringing pop and chips to school for lunch.


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## SDChicken (May 6, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I have an LGD (livestock guardian dog). He lives outside 24/7, with the goats and poultry. That is his job, to protect them from predators, and he can't do it if he's inside the house.
> 
> These dogs are not meant to be confined to the indoors.


We had a pyr. He was NOT happy as an indoor dog. 24/7 outdoors. If he didn't have something to guard he went looking for something. He was a happy well cared for dog. He just had his preferences. Had we tried to force him to become an indoor dog he would have been miserable.




Pryght said:


> As is obvious by reading this thread, different people make different types of bonds with their pets. Personally, my bond with my children is similar to that which I have with my dog. IMO, love is love.
> 
> In my mind, this world would be a better place if people loved their pets as much as they love their human family members.


I love my pets but it in no way is even close to the love I have for my child. I've cried and grieved over the loss of pets. I still shed tears over them. I cannot fathom the loss of my daughter. It would be hard for me to go on living. Ugh I just can't even bare to think of it. 



selzer said:


> To love a dog in the same fashion that you love a child disrespects the dog and may disrespect the child as well. Dogs are animals, and they need to be respected as animals, not as children. Do I think of/refer to myself as momma to them sometimes? Certainly, they understand momma. But I do not treat them like children, and a whole lot of problems happen when people confuse/blur the lines between animal and human when it comes to dogs.
> 
> There is another thing too. And that is the canine body is built to withstand the elements. But if we put them in an artificial environment, like 68 degrees, when outside it is 30 or 20 or 10 or lower, then the dog may never grow the coat it needs to withstand the harsher temperatures. If your dog is used to 68, taking them for a 45 minute walk in 10 - 20 degree weather might be very hard on the dog. If the dog is accustomed to the outdoor temperatures and has proper shelter, the grow a good coat, and they manage the weather great given they are not confined in such a way that there is no shade, no dry enclosed spot to retain body heat, or no sufficient water.


Totally agree.

This is similar to spending the winter bundled up but as soon as the temps hit 60 we are in shorts and a t-shirt. But after dealing with summer temps 60 can be chilly and a hoodie will come on. Our bodies become accustomed to the weather if we are out in it. If we are protected the entire season it makes that transition more difficult. 

Along the same lines is why I didn't ship my mare out east with us. To go from a so cal fall into an east coast winter would of been hard on her. She doesn't grow a winter coat on the west coast. But when on the east coast she does grow somewhat of a winter coat if I allow it...delay blanketing ect.



Jax08 said:


> It's cooler in Europe, right? What are your average temps? Air conditioning is actually not good for us. Read a study that it makes us fat because our bodies don't have to try to cool down on their own. And it's more of a shock to our system when we go outdoors. People that work at the meat packing plant have been known to pass out in the parking lot because of the shock caused by the difference in temperature.
> 
> We used to go to the beach (lived in Michigan), sit outside in the shade. My grandmother had all her curtains drawn to keep out the sun and it was always nice in there. I just don't remember ever being as "hot" as I get now and I think that has to do with being accustomed to AC rather than being acclimated to our climate.


I use to live in the Imperial valley. 115 in the shade in the summer time and often it could get higher. Our classrooms had no AC, nor our buses and neither did our car. They always had warnings about going from one extreme to the other. People would often pass out, get sick (throwing up), or end up with bloody noses when going back and forth. I say this as I'm enjoying our AC hahaha. I've also read that it is healthier for us to experience the changes. Can't remember the details but that stuck out in my mind.



Jax08 said:


> oh lordie....I'm having bad visions of my 15.3HH quarter horse inside. There goes my china...and windows..and walls....


I've had that happen, well close. Haha My daughter, teething at the time, had delayed me from going out to feed. Now I was only 15min late but I turned around the sound of our sliding glass door, which was cracked open, being slid all the way open. My mare was standing on the porch going to let her big butt in. She's 15.2. Haha

As far as the dog being kept outdoors, without seeing the day to day life the dog lived, I don't see how the owner was being neglectful. The property didn't seem to have a perimeter fence. So that would make the kennel the safest place for the dog to be without supervision, in my opinion. Now I grew up with my grandfathers hunting labs. They were outdoor dogs with kennels. His dogs were worked every day, and when not worked allowed to roam the entire back yard. But if he had company they were put up. They had a covered kennel, automatic waterer, fed two times a day, insulated dog house, and were exercised, and worked more than most family pets. Our own lab, growing up, was an outdoor only dog. But he has hardly neglected. I was working with him constantly and we went on walks everyday. He preferred it outdoors and he was well loved and cared for. With that experience I can't condemn anyone for using a kennel or keeping dogs outdoors. There is always more than meets the eye. Anyone can abuse any situation, any device, tool, ect. All we can do is make assumptions, or express our views, thoughts, on the limited information the article gives.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I'm curious about something. Having read this thread there appears to be lots of you who keep your dogs outside some/all of the time. But as I recall, (but as there are lots of posts I might be wrong) everyone mentions dogs not dog. 

Do you think it's different for one dog to be alone outside? 
Not including Freesteps LGD (just spotted that as I was about to post) 
_________
Sue


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think a solitary dog is likely to be more bored, and perhaps more of a nuisance. But that does not give anyone the right to steal the dog.

In some places police dogs are kenneled outdoors. They work with their owners/handlers during the day, are fed, and kenneled for the night. They certainly have plenty of human interaction, and being kenneled for the night is not neglectful, in fact, it could be a good way for the dog to de-elevate and relax. 

Other police k9s come in and are family dogs after the day's work. I do not know if any studies have been done with which method is actually superior. Our human-ness might say having them inside with the family would be. But they are dogs. And there may be no difference between the bond and ability of the critter's to do the work, nor their general condition depending on whether they are inside dogs or outside dogs.

My parents have an only. Cujo will be seven in August. He is chained when he is outside all by himself. The total amount of time that he is chained in a day is about 50 minutes. He never has been allowed on the furniture or in the basement or attic. The rest of the house, upstairs, downstairs, the staircases, the bathrooms, kitchen, study is his domain. He is allowed on the front porch with a responsible adult, he is not tethered or leashed on the porch because he is trained not to go off the porch without being leashed. But we do not let him sit out there on his own, because he is a dog, and well, if the right thing happened, he might not make the best decision.

Still, we have had some lady out there with treats giving them to him, she felt sorry for the poor chained dogs. We have had neighbors call and check up on my mother because the dog was out longer than usual one day. 

On abnormal days, Cujo wants to be in with all the people and all the crazyness. But on normal days, when it is just Mom and Dad, and maybe me, the dog likes to spend his 1/2 hour our there in the morning. It is part of his routine. And dogs like routine. They like schedules and things being in order and predictable. A couple of times later in the day they let him out for ten minutes at a time.

Some dogs deserve better fanatics might try to steal the poor chained dog. But they could not possibly give Cujo a better life than the one he has, and my mother would probably hunt them down and make them sorry. And Cujo's little girls -- all four of them (besides his ladies) would be devestated.

Stealing a dog because you disagree with something about how they are kept is disgusting. 

It was said that there is worst things than stealing. Well, I will just let you know that when your dog is missing, I cannot imagine how it would be with a kid missing, it is the most horrible feeling. You do not know if your dog is facing euthanasia, if he has been hit by a car, if he is starving and cold, if he is having a seizure without his meds, if he has been shot and is wounded and bleeding somewhere, if you will never know what happened to him. Any theft of a dog should be a felony. Because dogs are worth more than their purchase price. Their value cannot be measured in dollars and cents, so it should just be grand theft canine.

They used to hang horse-thieves and those who stole cattle. They used to recognize that people's lives are affected when the animals they depend on are stolen. Nobody seems to care (legally) when dogs are stolen. I hope this family has justice.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Chelle - I rarely even respond to your posts for my own reasons. I found your reply more than a bit nasty and it seemed to be in response to my post, thus my question. And believe me...if I want to cut you or minimize you, if I don't like you...I"m not even close to subtle...I'll just say it. I will say, given your responses to me in this thread, that it seems you have some personal issue with me and if so, take it to a PM.


Will do.

~~~~

Seriously, there are a few things running through this thread.

There have been threads that were quite well supported when a person talked about a neglected dog. They would say things about how they'd called AC, to no avail. Many sad tales about situations like this. The poster usually received many "creative" responses about how they could "steal" the dog. I recall one such post that the poster met with comments such as "that is theft and you can't do it," but the majority are in favor of getting the dog out of there.

I just find it interesting that these threads have received that level of support, but this thread has at times had people's blood boiling with anger towards the person who removed the dog.

I'm not on either side. Theft is wrong and no one has the right to steal the dog, even if it is neglected. There are other, more legal courses that could be pursued. If the dog really was neglected, the thief should have documented it and worked harder with AC.

I am also willing to entertain the "other side" and consider this dog was neglected -- at least in terms of attention. No, a dog doesn't require attention or companionship to remain alive. But it is best for its overall well-being. 

There is a dog that is chained out to a bus (yeah, a bus) every single time I drive by a certain street. I don't go that way all that often, but the dog is there every time. It has a bowl and shade and is always laying there. I am not going to steal the dog. I do feel for the dog. I always drive by during the workday, so maybe that person works close and the dog is there only then. I don't know. I don't purposefully go down there on weekends or nights to see. If I did know it was there literally all the time, I might call AC. I still wouldn't steal it, but I can see how seeing this day in, day out, month after month, might drive a person to go so far as they did.

Another thing not mentioned is that we can't see the dog, so have no clue as to its health condition. That could also tell a tale in terms of its welfare. If you saw a pic of the dog and he had flystrike and a poor coat, would you still be so indignant about the crime? 

Not justifying anything. That dog chained to the bus came to mind when I intitally read the post. 

I am just going to hope for the best scenario for the dog -- whether it is with the "forced" rehoming or back to the family.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it will be up to the family to do the detective work. I doubt the LEO's or AC will be on this. The town isn't that big and eventually whoever stole Aspen will be outed....He's too unique to go unnoticed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

chelle said:


> Will do.
> 
> ~~~~
> 
> ...


I am sorry, but no. When I have seen threads in the past that suggested stealing a dog, I was always vehemently opposed to that. It is vigilantism. And if every person could determine the point at which a dog should be removed from another person, and then help themselves to that dog, that is anarchy. Your point of stealing the dog might be hair falling out, skeletal, covered with ticks and fleas. Mine might be someone training with a prong collar, or someone forcing their dog to learn obedience commands. 

There are extremists out there that truly believe that dogs are better off dead than being subjected to living with humans, being required to be obedient to humans. And why should we NOT think this thief was not an extremist? They STOLE a dog. A dog that AC said was cared for just fine on three separate occasions. No it does not take something wrong for someone to call AC. The caller just needs to feel that there is something wrong. 

I think it is mighty funny that a purebred dog that was in good condition was the dog that was stolen. It was not a dog covered in maggots and fecies with an inbedded collar. There are abuse cases out there, but these people did not want to help a poor abused/neglected dog, they wanted to steal a dog, either to get a nice dog for free, get a dog they can sell or give to a friend/family member that wants one, get a dog to sell to a laboratory; or they want to feel righteous anger, the exhiliration of doing something illegal for your cause, and not get their hands all that dirty in the process. They are the scum of the earth. In the world according to sue, they would have their hands cut off. 

I cannot understand even a little bit empathy for the thief. 

And when people get on that kick to encourage people to steal their neighbor's dog, I usually warn them that they would be charged criminally for that. And I think I have admonished people for encouraging this behavior because it is extremely dangerous, and wrong. 

If a dog is full of ticks and maggots and starving, and AC comes out and will do nothing, up the ante and call the news. Call the police. Call the county commisioners. Call the mayor's office. But don't go over there and remove the dog. That will put you in jail, and possibly your dogs stuck in the clink or worse.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

I found your response interesting. Just accept that people are at different levels of moral development. A psychologist, by the name of Lawrence Kohlberg, studied this in the 1950s. Kohlberg used something called the "Heinz Dilemma," which, interestingly enough, has many similarities to the hypothetical scenario you proposed. You used a dog...he used a spouse. 

Heinz Dilemma: "A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $ 1,000, which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said, "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife. 

Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?" 

Based on your response, you are the "Preconventional Level" (fear of punishment) or "Conventional Level" (shouldn't break laws) of moral development, whereas the poster you are responding to could be at the "Postconventional Level" (realizes that the dog's life is more important than societal laws or punishments).

Perhaps your response would be different if a human was involved...I don't know. I just thought your example was eerily similar to the Heinz Dilemma and wanted to share. 

Just accept that you both see the world differently, and move on...



selzer said:


> If a dog is full of ticks and maggots and starving, and AC comes out and will do nothing, up the ante and call the news. Call the police. Call the county commisioners. Call the mayor's office. But don't go over there and remove the dog. That will put you in jail, and possibly your dogs stuck in the clink or worse.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> I am sorry, but no. When I have seen threads in the past that suggested stealing a dog, I was always vehemently opposed to that. It is vigilantism. And if every person could determine the point at which a dog should be removed from another person, and then help themselves to that dog, that is anarchy. Your point of stealing the dog might be hair falling out, skeletal, covered with ticks and fleas. Mine might be someone training with a prong collar, or someone forcing their dog to learn obedience commands.
> 
> There are extremists out there that truly believe that dogs are better off dead than being subjected to living with humans, being required to be obedient to humans. And why should we NOT think this thief was not an extremist? They STOLE a dog. A dog that AC said was cared for just fine on three separate occasions. No it does not take something wrong for someone to call AC. The caller just needs to feel that there is something wrong.
> 
> ...


So yes, you know there are plenty of threads that recommend, or at least do not discourage dog "theft" in deplorable conditions.

I understand where you are coming from. 

As much as I might want to remove a dog in a bad situation, I wouldn't do so. Not my job. I have enough to worry about. I am no vigilante.

We do not, however, know the physical condition of the dog. The pics are generic, we don't know when they were taken. Not that that changes anything.

I like to look at more than one side of things. Just because I may be able to understand the temptation of the "theft" of the dog does NOT mean I condone it. 

Maybe I am over-personalizing this thing, thinking about the dog chained to the bus. 

Recently I went to a habit for hounds deal where people get together to install enclosures for dogs that live on chains. It's a good cause. I was depressed. Dog lives outside and owners readily admitted they won't walk the dog because he pulls too hard. Dog had flystrike and filthy infected ears. This (low) level of care won't change just because he is now in a more secure enclosure, rather than on a heavy chain.

I left feeling happy and sad. Dog was off the chain, yes, but dog was still going to be outside being bitten by flies and not getting vet care. The owners were kindly advised that the fly issues would perhaps be less if they picked up the poop. The group purchased a pooper scooper for them as well. They were also kindly advised the dog needed vet care for the ears. The owners were... just .. nonchalant about that. It was hard to be there. They just didn't seem to care. 

The dog was a jem. A beautiful 2 year old intact shepherd boy. Wonderfully behaved in spite of all the mayhem of all that was going on. A dog that twists your heart.

Thinking of that probably influences my responses as well.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Pryght said:


> I found your response interesting. Just accept that people are at different levels of moral development. A psychologist, by the name of Lawrence Kohlberg, studied this in the 1950s. Kohlberg used something called the "Heinz Dilemma," which, interestingly enough, has many similarities to the hypothetical scenario you proposed.


Ooh, someone just took a high school psychology class!


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

selzer said:


> There is NEVER a good reason to go outside of the law and steal an animal. If you do not like chains, do something to change the law, but do not go and take a dog off their chain, it is a good way to get bit. If you do not like outdoor dogs, than try to get an ordinance passed. Educate people. Try a bring the dog in, campaign. But stealing dogs should be a felony regardless to the monetary value of the animal.


I do not disagree that stealing a dog should be a felony, but I think it's in your state that dogs being left to starve to death slowly in their runs is not a felony. And those were dogs he was being paid to board and train. And this was on his property where he had to walk by those poor dogs several times a day. I dare anyone to look at the pictures of those dogs and tell me that they would not of gone outside the law to rescue them from that fate. 

And yes, I would call Animal Control first. 

So yes, I do think there are times where I would go outside the law.

That being said I have kennels, I have crates, I have runs. Some dogs kennel well, some don't, Some crate well, some don't. None of my dogs live all the time in the kennel, some live all the time in the house.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I thought of this thread yesterday while watching Oz laying on the deck, big, black dog panting like he was going to die, while I sat in my air conditioned house drinking coffee. It was 30C something plus humidity, so over 100F. I was the miserable one. I hate air conditioning, but the baby was napping, the sun was still on the main windows and I had the air on 78 or 79 to pull the humidity out. (The temp was 24 C in the house) When I finally convinced him to come inside, it was like we threw out another Jolly Ball. But I needed to leave the main level of the house and couldn't keep an eye on him. If Oz were a different dog, like perhaps a husky, he would be contained in some sort of outdoor enclosure and I'm pretty sure he would be content. My neighbor's daughter once asked if Oz was outside all the time, I said, no, he prefers it out there. As long as he's content, I can keep and eye on him, he can stay out, if he barks, his punishment is he has to come into the house.
Yes dogs are pack animals, but sometimes a dog can be content and confident in it's pack's routines that they can be separated by walls and doors. Dolly in the winter loves it outside, she still has to be near us most of the time, but on cooler days with no sun, she'll lay outside for several hours with Oz.
Our life is very routine, there are days when it isn't, but for the most part, we get up around 6-6:30am, the dogs go out, I do my morning stuff, at 9am the dogs come in (sooner if they ask) I leave for a walk or bike ride for an hour, by 10 they are back out if they want, nap time is around noon, if I can't watch them, they stay in the house for an hour or two, then back out for an hour, then I usually have errands, so back in. Typically I am home by 4pm or earlier from errands, and we're outside until dark. I would hate for someone to think my dogs are miserable outside. They have gallon heated water dishes outside, they prefer outside water although inside and outside comes from the same dispenser. 
It would destroy me if someone stole my dogs because they thought they were being mistreated. Even during quiet time the bell at the back door is rung incessantly because Oz wants to spend nap time outside, which he can if I'm able to watch him.
Some dogs like it indoors, some like it outdoors, dogs can spend time away from their pack, my thoughts are a confident dog would be able to stay away from his or her pack for short periods or longer if the dynamics and routine of the pack were consistent.
Oz is no less of a member of our family because he likes it outside, he's no less intuitive of emotions of the humans, illnesses of the humans because he hangs out outside.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

When mixed breed, feces covered dogs with embedded collars get stolen, the news doesn't do a feel-good story interviewing the family who are willing to publicly pine for the dog. Nobody would empathize, so there goes the news story, and the family would have to out themselves as dog abusers.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

chelle said:


> So yes, you know there are plenty of threads that recommend, or at least do not discourage dog "theft" in deplorable conditions.
> 
> I understand where you are coming from.
> 
> ...


Now that's a dog that ought to get stolen, in my opinion. I would support that 100%. Suffering due to lack of basic medical care, that is not remotely okay.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Pryght said:


> I found your response interesting. Just accept that people are at different levels of moral development. A psychologist, by the name of Lawrence Kohlberg, studied this in the 1950s. Kohlberg used something called the "Heinz Dilemma," which, interestingly enough, has many similarities to the hypothetical scenario you proposed. You used a dog...he used a spouse.
> 
> Heinz Dilemma: "A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $ 1,000, which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said, "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.
> 
> ...


This scenario has happened just about exactly, only substitute people living with HIV in developing countries and multinational pharma corporations. People died for years because the makers of AZT wouldn't sell the drug to poor countries at cost.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We have had several cases near me in PA over the last couple of years...one a large group of GSD's that starved to death in a windowless building until one escaped and led people back to the building to save the ones left. The news reports are horrific.

Our local police and humane officer (a retired LEO from Maryland) do not screw around. If they find neglected animals they are seized. the proper channels must be followed. You can't just steal animals. First, because that is illegal but more importantly, the proper officials need to be involved so charges are pressed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is not one member on this board that has a dog, that I could not manufacture a reason to justify stealing their dog. 

The dog is over-weight.
The dog is under-weight.
The dog is fed raw -- the poor thing, subjected to salmonella and yuck!
The dog is fed kibble -- the poor thing. all the garbage in kibble and how boring!
The dog is fed home-made -- the owners can't be canine nutritionists so they are probably not feeding properly!
The dog has a prong collar.
The dog has a shock collar.
The dog is used for breeding.
The dog is prevented from breeding.
They are going to spay or neuter the dog.
They are not going to spay or neuter the dog.
The dog spends hours in a crate.
The dog spends hours in a kennel.
The dog is chained.
The owners do not train the dog.
The owners force the dog to do agility, schutzhund, police k9 training, obedience, etc.
The dog is an only.
The dog is one of many.
And on and on and on.

It is NEVER ok to go outside the law and take someone's dog. 

I do not know what it has to do with the price of rice in China that there was some yayhoo I hadn't heard of boarding and training dogs and neglecting them. Because he is from my state I guess makes me somewhat kin to him? If animal cruelty is not a felony in Ohio, then that is a problem. Last time I did arithmetic, two wrongs did not make a right. 

No, I would not steal the dog from the man's kennels. Sorry. I wouldn't. I would not stop calling everyone and their brother, I would have seven different groups parked on the guys lawn, until the police and the news media WOULD have to take notice. But I would not remove the dogs. 

Removing a dog from a nasty situation does save that dog, but it condemns another dog to take its place. It does not address the problem. It is an unintelligent and unimaginative temporary band-aid _if _the dog is actually stolen by an ignorant do-gooder. It is far better to go through the law, where the person is bothered, fined, charged, and so long as the situation, if it is a situation, is not resolved. 

If animal control visits a property, sees the conditions, and the animal, and declares all is fine, then the people who have a problem need to mind their own business. Just because you feel it is best to perform major surgery on an elderly dog, it does not make another person an ogre for not having that surgery performed and to put the dog down when it is clear that it's quality of life is no longer acceptable. People have different feelings about all of these things. I personally think it is animal cruelty to try and save a dog that is burned over a large part of their body. I would put dogs out of their pain, and not force them to go through a painful recovery if the prognosis was poor. We all have different feelings about what is minimum care, what is right, what is wrong with respect to the treatment, feeding, care, containment, training of animals. By condoning the stealing of an animal because of one's personal beliefs about the treatment, is opening all of you to having your dogs justifiably stolen from you. 

Unreal!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I had to come out of semi forum retirement to say amen to that post Sue.
Lord spare us from self annointed moral authorities who think they know what is right for everyone. 

My "truth" and what is "right" and someone else may be very different.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Sue I brought up Ohio animal abuse laws because I thought it was ironic that you were advocating felony classification of dog theft when your state does not recognize animal abuse as a felony. I think you may of taken it personally which was not my intention.

Nitro's Law is something I supported and I did do some small work in order to try and get the law changed in your state. 

 Nitro Foundation - Nitrofoundation

So I guess one could say that generally I do try and work within the law and will try and change things legally that I think is wrong. I've seen more birthdays then I care to remember and I have never been arrested so it's safe to say that I'm either a very smart criminal or generally law abiding.

Not one of the reasons on your lists would cause me to break the law and jeopardize my future, but I would hope that you did know I was talking about extremes. 

So yes I can see situations where I would go outside the law if need be. You don't. <shrug> 

In an *extreme* situation this potential "ignorant do-gooder" would be comfortable breaking the law by helping the immediate dog that is being starved to death (as an example) while she continued to try and change the laws for theoretical future victims.

It's just not as black and white to me as it is to you. That's all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Betty, if we condone it for you, because we know you are a dog-person, and you will be reasonable, and you will not steal a dog just because it is in a kennel, or on a chain, or being trained with a training collar, or being fed raw food, than we must also give everyone else a free pass to steal dogs. 

We just can't have it both ways. We cannot condone it for some people to go outside of the law and illegally rescue animals. I will NEVER condone it for anyone, not even for a breeder of the pup that is being mistreated. Sorry. The breeder can offer to buy the puppy back, can offer twice the purchase price, can call the authorities if it is abuse/neglect they are witnessing, can file a case in court about them not abiding by the rules set out in their contract, but they cannot steal the dog back. That is criminal.

If you have committed a crime, if you have taken a dog that belonged to someone and removed it from the situation without permision, then you are a criminal, and you just haven't gotten caught. Probably because the police do not always put dog-theft high on their list of priorities. It is kind of like the dude who does not bother to feed and care for the dogs in his possession. He gets away with it, not because there is no law against it, but it is not high on the priority list. Becoming a criminal because you see a criminal getting away with it is not right.

I have a pair of diamond earings somewhere and a gold cross. I would rather the cops pay a lot more attention to someone who stole a dog, than someone who stole jewelry, but it is like so many things in life, bassackwards. But that does not give me the right to find the individual that stole my dog, break into their home, and steal my dog back, does it?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Betty said:


> It's just not as black and white to me as it is to you. That's all.


I share this sentiment as well. There is a pic on fb of a dog drug behind a car. I will spare the emotionality of reposting it here, but it is not pretty.

Would we be within our legal rights to take such a dog? Probably not. There are no caveats for theft in the case of this, that or other extinuating circumstance. 

I'd take that dog so fast your head would spin. In fact, it it were within my physical ability, I'd make the dragger's head spin, too. Which would end up with me getting some kind of assault charge, I imagine. I'd do it, though.

The danger in all this is what each of us classifies as "abuse." So I do understand Selzer's points. "Abuse" to one person could be basically insignificant. As Betty said, it is not black/white. It requires judgement, and some are sorely lacking in that, and some are zealots.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I'm not asking or expecting anyone to condone or condemn Sue. Like I said it is not black and white to me and I can see certain situations where I may go outside the law knowing that there could be consequences.

And if I felt that situation was that dire I personally would for the most part comfortable being labeling a criminal by some. 

But I certainly understand your viewpoint and can't say you are wrong with advocating 100 percent respect for the law.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.

I have no use for those who (as in the case the OP started the thread with) come and steal someones dog and then run off and hide leaving a holier than thou letter and a family without their dog.

I hope they are caught and prosecuted to the fullest for their act of cowardness.

At least chelle admitted that she might have to pay a legal price for going outside the law.

Would some of you vigilantes also kidnap children you thought were being abused.

My wife works with abused women and children and if she kidnapped all the children that CPS does nothing for, she would be busy all the time. She would also have been in jail a long time ago.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.
> 
> If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
> If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.
> ...


Very true. It would be very hard to work in that field. Part of you would want to steal the children, the other part would make you want to hurt people. 

And I don't deny that we might feel that way about dogs too. 

I just believe everyone should have the due process of the law. An individual should not be able to make the call as to whether you are not worthy to own your dogs.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.
> 
> If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
> If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.
> ...



Your wife has a very difficult job. The hardest job I ever had was when I was a child abuse investigator for the State of Florida.

In retrospect that may of been when I learned first hand and personal that sometimes by following the law, innocents die horrible, avoidable deaths.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> Very true. It would be very hard to work in that field. Part of you would want to steal the children, the other part would make you want to hurt people.
> 
> And I don't deny that we might feel that way about dogs too.
> 
> *I just believe everyone should have the due process of the law*. An individual should not be able to make the call as to whether you are not worthy to own your dogs.


To be entirely honest, I don't believe that. (bolded.) 

I'm a vigilante, but only in my own mind.  I don't act on it because I enjoy my life with a nice, clear criminal record.  

If push came to shove, however, I could make a judgment call that could potentially effect my life. And -- I would stand by it. 

Stand for something or fall for anything. That's how I was raised and that's how I live.

Call me a renegade, but I don't put all my faith in courts, juries and judges. In fact, I put *little* faith there.

I could never work in social services. The first time I came into a situation with a beaten child, I'd go ballistic. I doubt I could keep my emotions in proper check and trust this ridiculous excuse we have for a "system."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> My wife works with abused women and children and if she kidnapped all the children that CPS does nothing for, she would be busy all the time. She would also have been in jail a long time ago.





Betty said:


> Your wife has a very difficult job. The hardest job I ever had was when I was a child abuse investigator for the State of Florida.
> 
> In retrospect that may of been when I learned first hand and personal that sometimes by following the law, innocents die horrible, avoidable deaths.


Thank You, Betty and Andy's wife, for doing an incredibly hard and heart breaking job.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.
> 
> If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
> If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.


I came across a situation years ago that 2 dogs were left in the yard for days at a time without food and water(In fact I don't think I ever saw water or food). It was in the winter and very cold They would sleep on top of each other in the corner of the yard to keep warm...All the neighbors were complaining and Animal Control would do nothing except go talk to the individual, with no result Saddest thing about it was that their owner was a cop and where I'm at, if you choose to stand up to a cop, then the consequences will be a whole lot worse, you might as well leave the town. In lots of cases you can remain anonymous, but not in this case. What do you think should have been done?


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

If i thought the dog was abused or just neglected, I probably would sue the owners for my mental distress, and intentionally run their legal bills up as far as i could.


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## PatternDayTrader (Dec 1, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I came across a situation years ago that 2 dogs were left in the yard for days at a time without food and water(In fact I don't think I ever saw water or food). It was in the winter and very cold They would sleep on top of each other in the corner of the yard to keep warm...All the neighbors were complaining and Animal Control would do nothing except go talk to the individual, with no result Saddest thing about it was that their owner was a cop and where I'm at, if you choose to stand up to a cop, then the consequences will be a whole lot worse, you might as well leave the town. In lots of cases you can remain anonymous, but not in this case. What do you think should have been done?


 
Video tape whats happening and make sure it ends up on youtube, if not the local news. Make sure you name the police department the officer works for (not the officer). Mention animal control officers are supporting the neglect of the dogs. Use provocative and inflammatory language during the narrative of the video. Make people angry.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PatternDayTrader said:


> Video tape whats happening and make sure it ends up on youtube, if not the local news. Make sure you name the police department the officer works for (not the officer). Mention animal control officers are supporting the neglect of the dogs. Use provocative and inflammatory language during the narrative of the video. Make people angry.


Not a bad thought, but youtube wasn't even thought of The news would have been a good idea, but I don't think that it would have been considered news worthy....I'm sure there are many dogs that were treated this way back then


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Sorry this is off topic, but I just wanted to mention that swamp coolers do not work well in humid environments like we have here in the summer. Our heat also comes with high humidity, which raises the heat index a lot so it feels much warmer than the temperature and it is very difficult to cool down because sweating doesn't help as much when it's that humid.

Also I don't think messing around with high temperatures is necessarily a-okay; it is possible for dogs (or people) to die from hyperthermia.
Whenever we have a heat wave (temps over 90) here, there are quite a few deaths. Usually a lot of those are people who die in their homes, who did not have air conditioning. 

Back in 1995, 700+ people died in Chicago's summer heat wave-- check it out: Dying Alone in the Heat Wave, an interview with Eric Klinenberg


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

selzer said:


> There is not one member on this board that has a dog, that I could not manufacture a reason to justify stealing their dog.
> 
> The dog is over-weight.
> The dog is under-weight.
> ...


Everything in this post is 100% spot-on.

I don't always agree with what you have to say but it is at least always logical, and here, explains exactly my feelings on the matter.

I can't condone a person stealing someone's dog because there are so many strong feelings about what is and is not right that I'd basically be condoning the theft of my own dog.

He lives inside - how horrible, he needs to be outside where he has room to run! He isn't neutered - how terrible, that's basically abuse! He's fed raw - as you said, how horrible, exposing him to nasty germs and parasites! I have walked him on a prong - how horrible, I'm poking holes in his neck!

It is easy to pass judgement on a person or dog you have had ten minutes exposure with.

It is even easier for that judgement to be completely wrong.

~

If you have witnessed a dog be left out for days in extreme temperatures, you can tell for a fact they are not being fed/watered (and are not just missing the times when they are), the dogs could be Famine's mascot, etc, okay, maybe I have some sympathy.

But as others have said, stealing that dog still doesn't fix the problem. Another takes its place. The problem is the person. It's a temporary feel-good measure. And it's still very, very wrong. It is hard to champion for animal welfare from inside a jail cell.


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