# Barking after the Out



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There is a chance that the protection work in SchH is going to be judged a bit differently in the near future. Specifically, the guarding portion of the routine. The way the guard is judged is supposed to get much more stringent.

So, what will you be teaching your dog to do after the out?

Do you think there is a benefit to one form of guarding over the other, besides giving the dog a chance at a better grip?

Do you think one is easier to teach than the other?

If you intend to teach barking after the out, when and how will you teach this? If you have not decided how to teach it, how have you seen it taught ?


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Personally I like an active, barking, gaurd after the out. Unfortunately my current dog was a little older when I got him. Due to his drive and the little training he recieved would jump off the ground into the helpers face after the out. So I've decided to go to the silent gaurd. It keeps him down for, as you mentioned, a better bit". I have seen only a few helpers that can time a dog that jumps the way he did and give a good persentation of the arm. 

I'll be going back to the active gaurd with the next one. 

Most good judges can see the difference in a strong intense silent gaurd versus a dog that just sits there waiting for his handler or whatever comes next. 

I think the active gaurd is much easier to teach a dog with high fight drive. (which is what I like) I think it's more natural for the dog. 

As for teaching it... The same if you use a pole or you can hold the dog on line. The helper just out of reach of the dog. Makes the dog miss a couple of timesto frustrate the dog...Dog barks once, he gets a bit... then, over time, increase the amount of barking before the dog gets a bit until he's sustaining the barking. Of course this is over simplistic. You will have to take into consideration how the dog is barking. Is it rythmic and intense? If not, what you're going to do and what you want the helper to do to get the barking the way you want.

I've seen people teach a B&H by making their dog bark in front of them for a ball. I don't care for this personally. I don't think the barking is as intense on the helper this way. JMO.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have never taught a dog to do a silent guard so at this point in time I don't see that changing. A friend's dog did it naturally and it is very convincing so we just let it be. 

I think many people go to the silent guard because they either can not keep the dog clean, the dog is a jumper, or they have no idea how to create a good active guard. 

When the dog is doing a strong H&B and understands that his aggression/barking controls the helper he is ready for the out. It seems to go fairly easily at this point. We use the line or a pole.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

I let the dog guard the way want or whats natural to them. My 2 previous dogs guarded with barking and Jett up to this point is guarding silent but has recently occasionally barked some I will not encourage or discourage at this point but I am assessing his behavior with the barking. His silent guard is strong and nice.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I very much prefer the active guard for many reasons. 

I have only taught the silent guard to two dogs. The first, Kaiser, because due to a partially collapsed trachea he has never been able to bark well. His natural inclination was always to do an active guard, but it looked and sounded ridiculous. He'd make a noise something like a cross between a bark, squeak, wheeze and goose honk. And then his inability to bark and express his drive that way would get him frustrated, so he'd start bouncing and bumping. With the physical issue there was really no way to correct his active guard, so we went to a silent guard and that worked well. He had a very, very intense silent guard... wound like a spring, eyes boring holes into the helper. Definitely not a sit and wait for the toy type guard.

Della does a silent guard as well. I don't like it, but with her it was overwhelmingly her natural inclination. I'm sure there maybe some things we could have done differently in training to change that, but in large part it's just who she is. One of her personality traits is possession of a Border Collie type stare that she can keep up forever, and this tends to be a strong default behavior for her when she wants something. Even though I prefer an active guard, it's what is natural for her so we let it be. 

I have found that getting a strong active guard out of a dog is not difficult, provided the dog is mature enough and far enough along in training to be confident and comfortable using his bark to dominate the helper. But the dog must understand that he can "fight" with his voice and body language, not just his bite, for this to happen. We don't do outs off the man until the dog is at that stage in training and has a strong hold and bark that comes out of a desire to fight and dominate. Never a "gimme the sleeve" or "run bunny rabbit so I can bite you" type bark. Once the dog's barking is where it should be, we teach him to do that same behavior after the out. Prior to that, all outs are off the dead sleeve, usually with immediately encouraging the dog to go back into barking at the helper after outing the dead sleeve. So once those lessons are learned the segway into a similar behavior when outing off the man is fairly easy. It's initially taught with the dog on a line, to prevent mistakes.

Regardless of the type of guard, one thing that is important to me is that the dog remain in the same drive/mental state throughout the guard. Easier said than done sometimes, but this is always a goal of mine in training. I don't like to see a dog exhibiting drive conflict within himself when guarding. So if it's an active guard, I want strong, consistent body language and barking from start to finish, regardless of what else is going on. And if a silent guard, I want the dog maintaining a intense stare from start to finish. Certainly never losing drive and relaxing and looking around, but not failing to cap drive properly and leaking drive with fidgeting or whining or barking either.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How does one show that dog that he can fight or dominate the helper with his bark? Are there certain mechanics to this?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SambaHow does one show that dog that he can fight or dominate the helper with his bark? Are there certain mechanics to this?


The simple answer is that the dog must learn that he can achieve his drive goal through barking, not just biting. How it's done depends on what drive the dog is working in, and therefore what his goal is. So the helper must read the dog and react appropriately.

If he is in prey, his goal is to chase and catch the prey, so he needs to learn that barking is a means of flushing the prey.

If he is in reactive aggression born of defense drive, he perceives the helper as a threat and he wants to drive the helper away in order to eliminate the threat and the stress it enduces. 

If he is in active aggression born of fight drive, he perceives the helper as a challenge/opponent and he wants to dominante the helper.

Personally, I feel that barking should be an expression of aggression, not prey. Regardless of why the dog is in aggression (defense or fight) his goal is to create avoidance and submission in the helper. Two different reasons (one because the helper is a threat that causes stress, the other because the helper is an opponent to dominante) but ultimately the same goal in terms of the effect his barking has on the helper.

So to teach this, the helper has to react to the barking. The helper may initially pressure the dog, ideally more through his posture and attitude than his actions, and as the dog barks the helper gets weaker. Deflating himself and his posture and attitude and giving submissive/avoidant signals to the dog (flinching, blinking, looking away, etc...). If the dog's barking gets weak, the helper gets strong again. When the dog's barking is strong, the helper gets weak. This way the dog learns to dominate and control the helper through his barking alone and that only strong, aggressive barking will cause the helper to react in the way the dog wants the helper to react.

Too many helpers stand like statues, then just give a bite when they feel the dog has barked long enough. Or even worse, they pressure the dog and the pressure never goes away, no matter how strong the dog works, and then just give a bite. Problem with that is the dog's ONLY reward is the bite. He essentially learns that his barking is impotent. He can't really affect or dominate or control the helper in any means other than biting, he just has to keep barking until the helper decides to offer the bite. And when the bite is the only form of release of pressure or reward the dog gets, he naturally he learns to favor the bite over everything else. Whereas when the dog learns he can achieve his goals through barking as well as biting, the dog barks much stronger and works much cleaner.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Thank you for writing about the process! I have seen people work pretty hard to get the dog to learn to bark and then almost proceed to ignore the barking as the training progresses. It is not very often that I see a helper "affected" by barking once initial bark training is done. It is amazing the dogs keep on..... well, actually a lot of time they don't continue barking well.

I have seen some hold and bark training for a prey item like automatic ball delivery. This seems like prey drive though the barking can be pretty insistent and powerful in a way. How does this translate into guarding? Is the dog conditioned to come into the blind and bark and the predominant drive will change when confronted with a helper or threat? We start pups in prey and barking to get the prey to activate many times. Hopefully there is progression in the training though. Is it the same principle working in this barking and hold training?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing that I want to emphasize about what Chris said is the attitude of the helper. If a helper cannot play the role, the dog won't bark well, no matter how much or little you do. If the helpers have nothing going on inside, the dogs can certainly see that. That is a skill and also a gift that people have. If you take two helpers and both work the same dog, when the sleeve is handed to the helper who has this ability, you can actually see the dog change as soon as that helper touches the sleeve.

I see some helpers trying to bring up drive with whips etc and this gets the dogs so loaded they will bark but many times that bark is not coming from the right place. Once all the action goes away you see something else going on. It is important that the dog learns to bark at the correct drive level or you are not really teaching the guard. 

Also, how many helpers do we see who move and and hiss or tease the dogs in the blind nowadays?
Or, you see helpers craning their neck and seemly trying to burn holes in the dog's head with his stare. If they feel like they have to do that to get the dog to bark, the dog should not be in the blind. When the training has advanced to the blind or to barking after the out, the dog should already know to bark at a passive helper and the dog should know that passive can also be "dangerous". IMO, that does not mean the passive helper will hurt the dog, it means the dog has seen that attitude and THAT, not pain or teasing, is what disturbs the dog the most. Sure when you first teach the out, you may have to use some subtle cues to get the dog barking but if too much of that is going on, it's time to take a step back. 

You can't fool the dogs with physical cues, they have to see someone who means business and that has nothing to do with how much that person can pop the whip or blink their eyes. IMO, if you use a helper who lacks this ability, it is actually confusing to the dogs, especially German Shepherds who are bred to know the difference between what is and is not a threat. 

You can use those reactions that Chris talked about with younger dogs but the challenge from the helper, (and that is mental), must still be there, ( at the right level for that dog). What I am talking about is exceptionally difficult to teach people. They do have to be a certain type of personality, have a feel for dogs and be able to read the dogs to be capable of mastering this. People do not understand how to use what is known as "presence" ,( if they even have it), just like they do not understand how to use the whip. They have it on too often or just kind of melt the dog with it. It is much more subtle than people realize and the dogs can see that, even when the people can't.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

I like and prefer barking guards on the field.

However, I think the new "popular" method I'm seeing to train barking is leading to a decline in on the field barking. MANY clubs I have seen lately train the barking in the blind like this: send the dog in cold, stop him with a yell or a whip, block his ability to bite either physically or by hiding the sleeve, then when he barks in frustration, give grip.

I detest this, personally. I do not think you do the dogs ANY favors by not teaching him the above progression of what his barking does to the helper.

Anne is right, it is SO much about the helper. I lacked a great helper with my young dog, so I used a fence to set distance and build barking, and didn't let the helper move other than an occasional sigh or slight leaning towards the dog. I was pretty happy with the results.

My current competition dog does not bark after the outs. I HATE it, but I lacked the helper to do it right when we got there. Tried, it was dismal, and I gave up.

My husband's dog, however, jumps. Not in your face, but enough (and he is big enough) that he misses the good grip if he's in the wrong spot of his jump. 

He has a silent guard, but it is a stand and stare, which IMO looks more intense than sit for cookie guard.


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## CainGSD (Nov 15, 2003)

I have been watching this topic with great interest. 

A question for Anne, do some dogs have a natural preference as to how they guard. Active or silent. If a dog has a natural preference to be silent, do you work with that or work the dog in a way that lets them see they can dominate the helper more by strong barking.

This is a conversation I will be having this weekend with my young female's breeder.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

I'm not Anne, but I've always felt the dogs that want to go silent on the field are high prey drive dogs, or at least are WORKING in high prey drive at the moment the out is asked for.

Dogs with a lot of fight seem to be much more willing to go into barking after the out.

Again, just a broad generalization that does not apply to every dog and every situation.

I'm interested in seeing what she has to say for the second part of your question, and would like to throw something else in:

Dogs with a silent guard, even a very intense one, tend to lose focus after years of repetition. How you can teach a dog that he/she can dominate the helper with their "sit and stare"?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Active or silent. If a dog has a natural preference to be silent, do you work with that or work the dog in a way that lets them see they can dominate the helper more by strong barking.


I don't think of it as a case of preference actually although what Michelle said is true. I think it is a case of who the helper is and how the dog's foundation work is done. The helper part can be really rather frustrating. What I have gone back to doing nowadays is introducing protection the way we did years ago, with suspicion. The dog is asked to respond with aggression right off the bat vs how so many do it now with prey work . That was the method we used years ago and IMO, is why the dogs barked better back then, ( besides somewhat of a difference in the dogs).
Now we see helpers who play with the dogs and give way too many bites when the dog is doing pretty much nothing , and IMO, that just sets things up to have a dog with barking problems. There are VERY few helpers who can break a dog out of that once it is established. Also, that one helper may be able to accomplish that but once the dog is back with the previous helper , it all slides back the other way. You have to be very careful what kind of helper you allow your dog to see IMO. That can be very difficult nowadays because the helpers are not that skilled and the ones who want to bring aggression, usually do too much and damage the dog's confidence. There has to be a clear way out of the stress or pressure to train the dog correctly and very few know how to do this .
So, to sum it up, I think the foundation and the helper work is what makes or breaks the barking and not really the dog's preference.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Dogs with a silent guard, even a very intense one, tend to lose focus after years of repetition. How you can teach a dog that he/she can dominate the helper with their "sit and stare"?


I think it is what you said earlier. The silent guard can be more associated with prey work but I know some people with really aggressive dogs teach this as well. I think the dogs who are really aggressive and forced to be quiet do not lose interest like what you are saying. The ones who are working more in prey simply need to work in different scenarios to keep things from getting boring. They can also lose focus because the handler is a nag in other areas and the dog is affected by that. I saw this in a dog I worked recently. Watched the dog being disturbed by the handler in tracking and then saw the same thing when I worked the dog as the helper. It seems that it is never just one thing, you have to look at the whole picture.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One other thing that I have noticed that I think really has a negative impact on the bark is helpers and handlers who want the dog to bark too close, too soon. It takes a while to close that distance between the helper and the dog without losing the bark. It takes time.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

EEEk was that me?  I KNOW I disturb that dog tracking. But to call me a NAG? hehe

I know I lost focus in my silent guard with too much repetition. It is JUST as important to have the helper escape or attack the dog when least expected as it is to pick up your dog from the guard!

On another similar note- but involving the blind- I have stopped giving grips IN the blind for that dog. High prey, his anticipation of a grip in the blind leads to his barking "locking up" as he waits for a grip. I pull him out and let grips occur outside the blind, or pull him back and let the helper run off and escape. It helps him realize the barking in the blind is not about prey satisfaction.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

No, I didn't work your dog. Edited to add....I would have another name for you in tracking









The way many helpers work is leaning too much toward the biting ...meaning they give too many and many times when the dog is not at the right drive level. Really rather damaging if you ask me.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

THAT day.  Whew.


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