# Need advice....growling @ me



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

We have a 6 month old GSD/Mastiff x puppy and a 9 yr old GSD. We have had the puppy since June when we started fostering him and we adopted him in July. We have kept feedings seperate areas of kitchen, treats and bones are only in their own crate or gated area of the house. We don't do toys in the house (except a few chew toys in Tank's (puppy) crate. We have just started reintroducing some toys into the yard when we are there to supervise. Kaos (9yr) is really only interested in laying down outside and watching the kids play (so not toy motivated). So last night we had a jolly ball out with the puppy. Things were going great. Kaos was playing with my husband and kids in one part of the yard and I was playing with Tank in another part of the yard. Tank has not gotten good at "drop it" . A couple of times Kaos came over to us and acted like he wanted the ball, Tank would drop it w/out a problem when Kaos would walk over, but I would give Kaos the look and he would walk off and go back to the boys. So shortly after Kaos had come over I reached down to take the ball from Tank and he GROWLED at me. Big growl, I'm showing you my teeth kind of growl. My husband walked over and he ran to him and sat, I took the ball and put it away. 
So I called his trainer she said to take him out give him the ball (and a prong on), then give the drop command and reach for the ball and if he shows any signs of a growl give him "one **** of a correction". I am torn. Is that the correct way? (we never had this issue w/Kaos) I am thinking I need to work with drop it more before I resort to that.....am I just being too soft or is she correct? I again may be being to soft but I think he was just mimicking what Kaos does to him.....that being said I don't take growling at me lightly. I can not tolerate that, I have children and he is going to be one large dog. :help:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

mysweetkaos said:


> So I called his trainer she said to take him out give him the ball (and a prong on), then give the drop command and reach for the ball and if he shows any signs of a growl give him "one **** of a correction". I am torn. Is that the correct way? (we never had this issue w/Kaos) I am thinking I need to work with drop it more before I resort to that.....am I just being too soft or is she correct?


ABSOLUTELY NOT!! All you would be doing is confirming that he had a reason to be concerned about you reaching for his ball. 

Does he do this with other toys? No more jolly ball for a long time. 

You need to be showing him that you touching his toys is a good thing. Playing trading games with him. Give him the toy, offer super yummy treats in exchange for him dropping it and do a few repeats of that then let him play with it. Then call him away from the toy, put him up and but the toy away.

Absolutely no toys when your kids around. This should be a very structured learning session with just the two of you.

Using aggression to correct aggression can backfire by making the first aggressor react even stronger because clearly you didn't respect their warning the first time.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

He's testing you. Okay, that's my opinion, but it's a 6 month old puppy, right?

If it was my own dog, I would say "No!" and remove the toy with authority. 

It also happened to me while I was pet sitting my neighbor's unruly dog. I brought over a really nice jute tug to motivate her. She claimed it for her own, and growled at me when I tried to take it away. I did the same thing, a stern "No!" and I just took my tug from her. She still loves me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Is it the older dog, Tank?, that's now growling?

Or the younger dog, Kaos?

PLUS, my dogs growl at me all the time WHEN WE PLAY with toys.... but I know the difference. And there are rules (mostly involving the 'drop it' or at least I KNOW they are playing). My dogs play growl at each other, and play growl at me, and most people listening would be clueless about the 'playing' part and only hear the vicious sounding growling.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Kaos is my older dog....I can't ever remember an instance of him growling at me.

Tank is the puppy...he's the one who growled at me
I know Tank is very vocal and he has some cute play growls when he plays with Kaos or his toys.....but this most definetely had no play behind it.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> ABSOLUTELY NOT!! All you would be doing is confirming that he had a reason to be concerned about you reaching for his ball.
> 
> Does he do this with other toys? No more jolly ball for a long time.
> 
> ...


 
He does not growl with his other toys. He has a bone and a few chewies in his "area" I can reach in there no problem, even if he is chewing on them I will pet his face or take the bone and let him watch me put peanut butter in it and then hand it back. He only growled once before... he went into Kaos' crate stole his marrow bone and was hiding in the corner with his loot....he put on quite a show when my husband went over to him. In that instant we said NO, put a bucket down on top of the bone and then called him out of the corner. I agree he will not be playing with the kids, that will be on my list until he is secure. So I am not being too soft by thinking I need to train a dependable drop it first?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

For a puppy, I'd be real careful about coming down to hard on him, specially if there's any doubt that it's play growling or real. We want our dogs to play with us, so punishing will be an issue. 

Personally, I'd be working on tons of 'drop it's' and when the puppy does, replace it with Toy #2. So always reward a pup for leaving one toy by giving another! Makes YOU the Keeper of the Toys, and no reason to even think of growling except as part of the game. 

Bonding, relationship building, ENGAGEMENT training.... all this builds up your bond with your dog so you know they wouldn't think of challenging you. So the time time time it takes during the day with DOG CLASSES, training tricks, playing games, engagement training, SOCIALIZATION outside the home, and EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE!!!


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I agree with all of that. Tank is involved in training classes. We take 2 walks a day, one with Kaos, one without. I do 20-30 min of working on his lessons from class daily. We take him out quite a bit, to stores, busy parks, downtown areas. We took him to an open house at the Fire dept yesterday. He got tons of practice sitting while people approached and staying calm (no jumping, no rolling around) while people greeted him, not to mention he got exposure to big trucks, Firefighter gear...etc He did AMAZING.....he was so well behaved, I was proud of him........that was before the little incident.
So we definetely devote a lot of time to bonding with him


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just a by-the-by, my Dachshund Tristan growls all the time.
I learned when I first got him (he was paralyzed) and he was in the corner of the couch. My daughter (13 @ the time) went to sit down and Tris growled like "don't sit near me! this is my corner!" and I simply moved him. He didn't bite.
He did it again a bit later and I moved him - remember he was paralyzed so I had to do all the moving of him, he couldn't move himself.

Anyway - this has continued - the growling - but he's never bitten, it's like he's grumbly but not aggressive. I sometimes nuzzle his neck at the end of the day and he'll growl and I'll "grr" back and he continues until the game's over.

Some dogs are naturally grumbly, doesn't necessarily mean aggression. 
In your case - it might - or he just may be amped up and vocal and not necessarily meaning it in a nasty way.

Oh and another of our dogs will hold onto the ball something fierce but allow you to finally wrest it away (he's a 10lb. Dachshund). 

That said, I'd NILIF and do the other stuff people suggested because if it is early "testing" or even resource guarding, he'll get worse with higher value objects.

I just wanted to throw it out there that he may be incorporating vocalization in his play.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Kaos (ol man) grumbles all the time while playing with Tank an Tank will grumble back....but this was different. He was baring his teeth and staring at me, with his eyes and ears visibly different (best description I can do) from a play stance.

So as for now I guess I will amp up training. Looks like he will spend his day tethered to me, hope he likes doing laundry.....and I will work more on the NILIF regimen with him.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm wondering if this had more to do with Kaos coming over than with you taking the ball? Gryff defers to older Keeta and does not challenge her for stuff, but when we are playing (Gryffon and I), he gets possessive of his toys, wanting to keep them from her. He has not growled at me, but if Keeta is within a certain distance to him and I put my hand on his ball or frisbee and tell him to give, he won't - he gets very tense, and bites down harder on the toy, and without moving tries to roll his eyes to see what Keeta is doing - he is completely willing to give me the toy if she is out of 'grabbing toy range', but does not want HER to get it, so he hangs on to it if she is close. He will release if I insist, but instead I just try to make him feel safe and secure that he does not have to compete against her for my attention, and won't ask for him to release it just then. 

Could it have been something like that?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

That's what I'm wondering. When Kaos wants something from Tank he will let out a growl and Tank gives it up. I was wondering if he was just mimicking (sp) Kaos. (doesn't excuse it, but could explain it) We have done about 40 + drop it's today while he and I are tethered around the house, and while he isn't always right on cue....there wasn't any growling. One time it was his "treat box" (a toy that dispenses treats when you spin it) that I told him to drop, he curled a lip when I reached I responded with a NO and he dropped it. So I am HOPING, WISHING AND HOPING SOME MORE that it was just a response that he doesn't plan on making a habit. I intend to stay right on top of this issue though.

Do you think I should train consistently the drop its for a while before trying it with the jolly ball outside, or should that be part of the training?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Ah! I think you should ease up on the drop it! Let him get to keep some stuff once in a while. Sounds like he pretty consistently gives up things for you, so why keep annoying him with making him give things up? Over-doing the drop it, just because you can, can be counterproductive. At that age, with a pup, I sometimes let them have "no drop-it" days, where, unless safety was an issue, I didn't ask them to give anything up. all day. 

You might want to go back to playing two-ball with him, so that when he gives up his ball, he gets rewarded immediately with the other one. 

But to answer the original question - no, I would NOT correct a six month old the way your trainer wants to do it. As Jaimie had said, it would only re-enforce the idea that there IS something bad threatening to happen, and give him reason to growl, instead of correcting it. 

I think you have done excellent with Tank that at six months old you can do forty drop-its in a day and he will. So I'd ease back on that and not create possession issues by overdoing it. 

So a few things: Cut down the drop-its, let him savour the joy of holding stuff and carrying it around, don't ask him to give up toys when Kaos is nearby, occasionally give him a "drop-it free" day/ play sessions, and when you work with him and when you play fetch, used two toys/balls. As soon as he does drop the ball, he gets rewarded with the other one.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

agree with Lucia on this. If everytime you had something someone came over and made you drop it you would go insane and it would rather tick you off. A kid would start throwing fits screaming most likely so don't expect more from the dog. Do some actual training sessions with drop it a few times then let it be. I had one incident of Jinx growling and she had just gotten a big knucke bone and I went to pet her and she growled and it was a definite "Im not happy with you" growl. My first instinct was to take it away but of course someone with more experiance then me told me I was wrong. She growled because she was afraid of me taking it away and wanted to back me off... instead of showing her it was ok I showed her there was something to fear because I did take it away. In the wild world once a leader gives something to those lower then it it doesn't go back and ask for it back thats not being a fair leader. I agree let him have a break from drop it. Jinx is pretty solid on drop it however when kids are around they constantly demand her to drop everything and anything for a million reasons (they want to play fetch, they want her to play with a different toy etc..) after awhile I have to back them off because she stops dropping stuff and just wants to hold on to it. Sometimes you can over do the obediance and cause other issues because the dog just gets officially fed up which you can't blame them really sometimes making them do something just because you can is just not being a fair leader. Also of course as your gut already told you do not do that harsh of a correction on a puppy let alone in this case you are teaching him there was something negative.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Thank you all for your advice. Castlemaid...I agree I never do drop it's with Kaos involved, that would be like taking a toy away from one of my kids to give to another, not going to happen. I don't let Kaos take things for the joy of taking them, whenever he walked over to us with the ball yesterday I game him the look and he turned around and walked off back to my husband and the kids. In my defense...I didn't do 40 drop its in a row. We probably only did 15 in his training session, each time he dropped it I gave him a treat and then would do a sit, lay down, etc and he would earn some toy time. The other drop its were due to him thinking my 2 yr olds toys are fun in which case he would drop my 2yr olds toy and I would hand him his....the other incident was he finally achieved his goal of "gutting" his alligator toy and then had the squeaker in his mouth, so when I said drop it and he did, I replaced it with a new toy. So in those instances is that too excessive? or is that just the price for him being free roaming and learning the rules?

Please keep any advice coming, I do appreciate all of it. It has been so long since we've had a puppy...and like kids each one is so different!

So should I reinstitute the jolly ball while playing outside?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

OTOH, I once had a male 9mo male GSD and he was very hard headed as he was from german parents whose dad was the lhi scoring Protection scorer from the national Sieger show. He also scored very well in ScH training field at about 10-11 mo.

Anyway, he was a very nice puppy and got along great with our toddler son and the other female GSD adult we had.

One day he is laying down chewing a knuckle bone i had given him and i reached down to take it as we were going out and he was going to go into his crate.

the little son of a gun decided I guess, that he wanted to keep his bone and let out a ferocious growl with the teeth and all and a direct stare at me. Without thinking i grabbed him by the scruff of the neck, shook it and told him "NO" in my best low tone - not yelling, just almost a grunt.

He let it go and we never had a problem about any possesivness in the future. And BTW, it didn't cause him to not like me or fear me or anyone else!

So sometimes at least, a direct approach can work with some dogs and some owners.

However, the dog may react differently and the owner has to be ready for that reaction of course.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Codmaster, while I also wouldn't recommend your method... there is a difference between what you did and what the trainer was recommending. And no one said it would cause the dog not to like people.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Codmaster, while I also wouldn't recommend your method... there is a difference between what you did and what the trainer was recommending. And no one said it would cause the dog not to like people.


 Doesn't seem like very much difference in what i did and what the trainer actually recommended really. 

*"if he shows any signs of a growl give him "one **** of a correction".*

Only difference was that I didn't have a collar or leash attached. And my dog was a little older and probably a lot more hard headed (I am of course making an assumtion of this only because of his pedigree).

One problem if an owner backs off when the dog growls at them, is that some dogs will actually learn that if they don't want to do something that their owner tells them to, if they growl and threaten then the owner will back off.

Sort of like dogs do to each other, come near me when I have a bone or am eating - I will growl and maybe even snap and the other dog will go away and I can enjoy my thing.

Would you agree that dogs will do this to each other? And learn that it works - till a stronger dog will call their bluff (or fight)?


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## killerkrow (Oct 12, 2011)

*had same issue...before*

I wouldn't physically punish any dog unless it was attacking someone or another animal...But a good stern no and a collar yank...will get their attention...You still have to show that you are the alpha...not them...


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