# On Leash vs. Off leash



## jackiej (Apr 1, 2015)

Hi everyone,

This is my first thread requesting advice/suggestions on this forum!  Lots of question, but ill start with this...

So we have been trying to do leash training and i know it requires time and patience, so im trying! We have been trying to go on short walks but he is doing alott of pulling on his leash and when we do the stop method, he sometimes does better but most of the time he just gets frustrated and pulls harder or starts jumping. Very frustrating for me. recently got him a harness cause im afraid he will hurt his neck, so we will start that soon. I read someone post about walking with swing arms while walking, might try that...

I've been reading that some people on here let their puppies go on walk off leash and they do fine, but I just wouldnt trust mine to do that. 

So do yall only let them walk off leash in places where they cant escape? How do you prevent them from running off?

Also, should i continue with leash training ? and when can i start training off leash? Stimultaneously or once he masters his leash?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

No dog should "EVER" be allowed off leash until it has bomb proof recall under distraction!

A solid "Stay" and "Down" would be "my" minimum requirements! 

Those last two would cover a dropped leash situation.

Lots of links here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

There is a video clip in there on training your dog to walk on a loose leash. Don't worry about the size of the dog, the "principle is what's important! That's what I advocate and that's what I do. 

I work at rescue and I've walked dogs that were said to be pullers???Uh no it's you not the dog! The pullers walked for "me" just like one of my well trained personal dogs! It's the principle that needs to be understood and practiced!

It's about "demeanor" if a dog understands your serious the "job" will be simple!

But "Demeanor" may be hard to grasp and a "picture" is worth a thousand words so 
here is what "that" looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

Be like Jeff!


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Really depends on where exactly you are walking off leash and age of your dog.Puppies tend to stay pretty close,an older dog that is new to your family would need a lot more training.I have hiked with my dogs off leash since they were 8 wks old.This is out in the woods away from traffic.They run after squirrels etc. but they come right back.They love being able to run full out,big doggy smiles as they come tearing past me!
An urban area park would be too risky too many cars nearby.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

My pup, Finn is never off leash. He is 7 months and has only just advanced to an intermediate obedience class. He will eventually take part in an off-leash training class but I can't imagine that he'll be ready for that class anytime soon, maybe not till the Fall, 2016 : )
Even after he's completed the training, I'd have to have 100% trust in him...ya, I'm getting nervous even thinking about Finn off leash.
As far as pulling on-leash, Finn wears a H Sprenger prong collar. His trainer recommended that he wear that because at 4 months he was almost unmanageable for me on walks. That collar made all the difference for us, he immediately became a pleasure to take on walks...on a loose leash. 
A basic obedience class is always a good idea.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some things you can't take back, no matter how much you may want to. 

If the puppy is injured or killed because we jumped the gun and went off-lead too soon, then, how do we forgive ourselves. 

That is the only answer I can give. 

In classes, I will be getting a dog ready for advanced, which is all off lead, and the instructor will be having us do it all on lead, until finally she might let a couple of us who are getting ready for a show do our second run off lead. This is in a fenced yard in a controlled situation, with dogs that are already reliable around other dogs in a show-setting. 

I do allow my older dogs to be off lead, and I agree with the rock solid recall and stay commands. You have to know your dog better than the back of your hand, before letting them off lead, where there are dangers, like wildlife, cars, people, pets, etc. Don't think puppy. Think 4 or 5 or maybe 8 or 9 year old dog.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I like using a long-line. It gives Finn some freedom to roam around an open area, but I still have control of him and can keep him out of mischief.


----------



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

jackiej said:


> should i continue with leash training ?


YES!!!  Even if your dog had 100% amazing recall, even if he was absolutely perfect and stayed right at your feet as you walked, there are still going to be times when your dog is going to need to be on a leash. So he needs to learn how to be on one! 

I don't see how old your pup is, but our girl is 15 weeks and we've been having pulling issues, as well. She is just SO EXCITED TO SEE EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD OH MY GOD!! We switched to a harness just recently, too! haha The one we got seemed to help a smidge, but what REALLY is helping is the way we're working on it. From day one, I've tried to limit her pulling to her getting what she wants, so at least there's that baseline, even if she can't help herself. But what I do now is take my treat bag and clicker with me, and we do short, really scattered walks around our neighborhood (so she doesn't get used to a specific pattern). She is ridiculously food motivated, so when we walk and there's slack, I click so she knows she's in good position. If she ever stops and gives me attention, I shove food in her face. For a dog that's super food motivated, it works pretty darn well! I know not all puppies are as hungry as she is, but I thought it was worth mentioning.


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i agree never let a puppy off leash without good recall training. stick with a leash unless you're in an enclosed area.

a harness is going to promote pulling. when dogs feel pressure on their chest it makes them want to pull.

here where i start the controversy. even on pups i prefer a prong or choke collar. used responsibly of course. if the pup is pulling and you're worried about him hurting his neck, there's less a chance of that happening with a tightening collar. while training not to pull is the utmost importance, any kind of tightening or a slip collar is better than a flat collar. a dog pulling with a regular collar is putting 100% of the pressure on the front of it's throat. with a tightening collar the pressure is evenly distributed around the whole neck.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I use flat collars for tags and a martingale for the leash. I do not use harnesses, as the dog can just pull more with one than a collar, unless it is a special anti-pull harness. I haven't anything to say about those because I have never used them. 

I don't put prongs on puppies, and I take prongs off of adult dogs if they are accustomed to them, and train without them. I don't want to rely on a crutch I can't use later on, and, if ever there is a serious behavioral issue, I still want to have something I can try. If I go straight for the big guns out of the box, maybe we avoid any trouble ever, maybe. But maybe we just condition the pup to take that type of correction, onward and upward. 

It's tougher when you take on an adult whose owners used the prong on them for regular management. I generally have to go collarless for a while and then just use a martingale. They get it, but some of them think they don't need to without the collar. So it is more challenging. So far though, I haven't needed to put a prong back on a dog.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slip leash for me. I used one on a Boxer at rescue (dog was claimed to be a puller.) The dog barely knew it was there, if he moved out front I stopped no corrections no commands. When he relaxed we continued forward.

He was just like walking one of my well trained dogs. 

I turned him over to his handler at the end of the day...and sure enough of he sped dragging her behind in tow!:crazy:

It's not really about the tool (though I too think harness are.... uh crap) it's more about the person and understanding what your doing. The loose leash training video, I linked is a pretty good example of the "concept" that needs to be understood.


----------



## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

I won't feel comfortable having my dogs off leash. I have a martingale for moo,(pitbull) he is very good walking on leash! One class I took moo to the trainer had me put my end of leash thru my belt loop, or stuff in my pocket to help me loosen up on the leash!! We were in an enclosed area. The classes we went really showed me I was the one needing training!!
We were walking at the park one day and a man was walking his dog on a harness and his dog was lunging and barking at us and pulled the man down! Thankfully he didn't drop the leash!


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

readaboutdogs said:


> I showed me I was the one needing training!!


Yep and understanding that alone makes a huge difference in training your dog! Two thumbs up!:hug:


In that regard I tend to believe that the use of a harness (to trick your dog into behaving) interferes with the learning process (for the handler). 

Folks should try and be like Jeff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo







readaboutdogs said:


> We were walking at the park one day and a man was walking his dog on a harness and his dog was lunging and barking at us and pulled the man down! Thankfully he didn't drop the leash!


Glad no one hurt! And yeah that guy and dog were..."not" like Jeff!


----------



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Chip18 said:


> I tend to believe that the use of a harness (to trick your dog into behaving) interferes with the learning process (for the handler).


With this, and the comments about harnesses encouraging dogs to pull, I really think it depends on the harness, the dog, and the owner. It's like any other tool, how is a harness "tricking" them into behaving, but hitting the end of a slip lead (or pinch, or martingale) isn't?

My dog got used to hitting the end of the leash with something around her neck, and it got to the point where it felt like that's what she should do. She didn't care about it at all, if anything it made her more wild and want to bolt back an forth. We got a harness that only puts pressure on the front of her chest (no strap underneath that goes the length, if that makes any sense) so all it's doing is hugging her back. This happens to be similar to how in some instances I've held her back with my own hands while working on her "Wait" command. I think this naturally makes it work well for her because not only is a new sensation for walking, it's similar to something she's felt when she's learned to be calm.

Also, it's not like I just slapped it on hoping for a miracle quick-fix. Like you said, tools are just tools, all they can do is give you a bit of an edge to help you while you teach your dog. I MIGHT keep my dog on a similar harness as she grows, but it won't be because she doesn't know how to walk otherwise, it'll be because I really like the thing. Conversely, if I were to put the same harness on my husky, we'd have problems. The only thing that's worked well for him is a martingale, so that's what we use. Different dogs excel with different things, and it's a waste of opportunity to just slash one down right out of the gate. I really, really dislike using things like prong collars, but I absolutely will NOT say they don't work well in some situations or aren't useful. I also won't say 100% that I'll never use one, although I'd prefer not to. It's just another tool. Using a prong doesn't automatically mean you're going to break your dog, and using a harness doesn't automatically mean you're going to either encourage pulling or end up with a crutch you need for life (depending on whether it's a non-pull harness). It all depends on how the handler is managing the situation and teaching the dog.

Not saying all this because I even necessarily disagree with anything that's been posted, either, haha! With some dogs, some harness, etc, it DOES encourage pulling, and you don't ever want to get in a situation with any equipment where that's all your dog can behave on. I'm just saying not to write harnesses off all together so quickly!

Here's the harness in question, just because there's a disturbing lack of puppy pictures in this puppy thread:


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wolfenstein said:


> With this, and the comments about harnesses encouraging dogs to pull, I really think it depends on the harness, the dog, and the owner. It's like any other tool, how is a harness "tricking" them into behaving, but hitting the end of a slip lead (or pinch, or martingale) isn't?


That is not the type of harness in question.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree about the "disturbing lack of puppies." Beautiful pup, and thanks for correcting that.


----------



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

My pup will have to work off-leash from day one because of his SAR training. Safety first and set your dog up for success. Assume that in any situation they might decide to run away and ask yourself if they would still be safe if they did. If not, then the leash stays on. Also I would set aside time to be off-leash in safe areas with few distractions and work on obedience. They learn really quickly but it takes many repetitions for a behavior to be solid. Your daily walks which are full of distractions are not a good time to introduce a new behavior, like off-leash recall. Completely empty, boring, fenced in field is better for that. Consider that when you REALLY need the recall is like "show time." You have to rehearse hundreds of times before the final performance, and gradually make the rehearsals more and more like the real thing. You want to be able to bet $100 your dog will come when called if you are letting him off-leash around distractions where there is traffic, other dogs, etc.

What I like to do is go to school grounds, which are fenced in, very early or late when no one is there, and practice obedience interspersed with play. It wears them out more than a walk and is good bonding time. Also it is a safe place to watch their behavior and see how distracted they get by passerby, cars, etc. My older girl couldn't care less about people and cars but she is dog reactive. I would bet $1000 that she would never chase a car. The little guy is pretty easygoing right now, but his downside is that he doesn't engage as much yet so I can't count on him to focus on me for a solid hour straight. Plus everything is new to him and he likes to approach new things to check them out. It's good to learn about these things before they become risks.


----------

