# Odin heeling



## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

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Pardon the quality of the video, my roommate offered to shoot this for me so I could get an idea of how the heeling looks from an outside perspective.

The finishing sit is sloppy, and a few seconds into the video he kind of sways out and I had to call him in closer. Other than that how are we looking? ..or at least how is Odin looking, nevermind the ridiculous and sometimes clumsy looking handler.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yeah, his butt isn't totally straight. We have that same problem. Have you used a food lure much? If you get your hand right in position where you want him, you should be able to guide his butt a little more. I find if she's getting crooked, getting her back on my hand and the food helps a ton.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I use food lures more when we're working indoors during our group classes, but he doesn't seem to show as much enthusiasm. Granted I haven't tried it since we've had this little breakthrough in heeling so i'll see how he does this week when we start up our group obedience class again. He's been much more focused and responsive lately. 

I'll try your suggestion also, thank you!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Your dog gives great attention! 

The problem seems to be that he doesn't really understand the position he's supposed to be in- he forges and crabs out. Within 5 steps he's out of position and anticipating your reward- which in this particular video you pull out of your left armpit, across your body, and then start to throw with your right hand. Consequently you are pulling your dog forward and across your body. Not sure if this is a habit for you, but adjusting your reward position to behind you on your left might help in stopping the forging and crabbing out. A leash at this point could also be used to correct him back into position. 

I would practice "finding fuss". We do this with finding "here" too. I might sit the dog and then stand slightly in front of and to the right of my dog (so he only has to take a few steps to get into position) call Fuss, and then reward him when he is there correctly. And then you vary the different positions you set your dog up in until he can find the fuss position regardless of where he is. This clear understanding of the position will allow you to communicate to your dog...so when he starts heeling and gets out of position you can ask for Fuss and he should correct to where he's supposed to be so you can reward. 

It's just training though! You look like you have alot to work with in Odin!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Odin sounds like Stark - things are just starting to "click" in their brains! 

Stark's issue was focus and now that we have that we have gone BACK to working on position and "cleaning things up".

I would work with food for a bit until he understands where he is suppose to be.

^ Great advice above. 

He has great focus and that is the thing you can really work with!

Great job!


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> Your dog gives great attention!
> 
> The problem seems to be that he doesn't really understand the position he's supposed to be in- he forges and crabs out. Within 5 steps he's out of position and anticipating your reward- which in this particular video you pull out of your left armpit, across your body, and then start to throw with your right hand. Consequently you are pulling your dog forward and across your body. Not sure if this is a habit for you, but adjusting your reward position to behind you on your left might help in stopping the forging and crabbing out. A leash at this point could also be used to correct him back into position.
> 
> ...


So are you suggesting them I throw the ball straight behind me with my left hand? I can see now how i've been throwing the ball could cause the issues that we're having with positioning. 

We had started teaching the fuss as a stationary sitting position, but only very recently have I started asking for it while he's doing something else. Reminding him to 'fuss' when he forges ahead has helped and he'll move back so he's not too ahead, so i'll try that in combination with fixing how I offer him the reward.

Thanks very much, that gives me a lot more to work with!


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Odin sounds like Stark - things are just starting to "click" in their brains!


It almost feels as if as soon as he turned 2 things just.. started working a lot better, haha. In the past month or so he really seems a lot more mature, as crazy as that may sound.. his focus has been great and he's just been so enthusiastic and fun to work with.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> A leash at this point could also be used to correct him back into position.


Can you clarify? The only way I know how a leash is used to correct a dog into position is with a helper and a tracking leash. Is that what you mean? Where the tracking leash goes around the butt and anytime the dog gets out of position the dog is corrected by the helper.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

VomBlack said:


> It almost feels as if as soon as he turned 2 things just.. started working a lot better, haha. In the past month or so he really seems a lot more mature, as crazy as that may sound.. his focus has been great and he's just been so enthusiastic and fun to work with.


I TOTALLY know what your talking about!!!

Stark has been SOOOO GOOD lately in training (focused, motiviated, nailing everything I ask) and his reactivity is well.. not so much there anymore and he has just been an angel... I kinda miss his crazyness.... kinda..


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Can you clarify? The only way I know how a leash is used to correct a dog into position is with a helper and a tracking leash. Is that what you mean? Where the tracking leash goes around the butt and anytime the dog gets out of position the dog is corrected by the helper.


I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm merely pointing out that with a leash attached to the collar (rather than just relying on a ball lure) it is possible to gain better control of the dog because you can give more physical input to the dog. 

I will use my collar and leash to get my dogs into position if they are forging or lagging. The leash gives me the ability to keep them close and force the movement I want because it takes away the ability for the dog to swing out away from me. If they are lagging I will use more of a quick nagging series of pops in a forward direction. Usually these quick pops should stimulate drive and bring the dog forward. The trick is to mark the INSTANT they get into position and reward. If my dog is forging it's usually too much drive and a sharp correction back coupled with a left turn will help keep them from getting too far in front of me. Again- marking and rewarding the correct behavior as soon as you achieve it.

**And to the OP- yes behind you with your left hand.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

hummmm, I have to try the "throwing the ball behind me" as well. I am lucky that Indra actually doesn't swing out at all but maybe that comes from the "wall-training" we did, the only problem I have is the sit in motion. She doesn't sit straight. That's where she swings out and I used to throw the ball away from her as well just like the OP and started throwing it in the air, like GSDElsa suggested when I posted our last obedience video. So this topic is very interesting to me as well.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I think that's why Ball Drop Vests were so successful. They created a very consistent reward position at exactly the point where you would like the dog's attention to be focused. I attended a training with Phil Hoelcher and that was a BIG point of trouble he saw in many people- reward positions.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh I totally agree. I noticed in my last obedience video, that anytime I rewarded her, I put it into a different position after the reward, which makes it hard for the dog. 

I just can't seem to find a ball drop vest in my size... if anyone knows of a ball vest in 3X let me know LOL.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> I attended a training with Phil Hoelcher and that was a BIG point of trouble he saw in many people- reward positions.


It seems like one of those things that is so simple yet so easy to overlook. I never would have considered that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

VomBlack said:


> It seems like one of those things that is so simple yet so easy to overlook. I never would have considered that.


Me neither. You don't noticed while you do the actual training because you are so concentrated on the dog. 

I did and sometimes still do the same thing like you, throwing the ball away.





While she heels straight and fairly close to my leg, I have the problem with the sit. She swings her butt around when she sits but that is mainly because I open myself up mainly because of the reward. So maybe a ball-drop Jacket is actually a pretty darn good idea


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Do you have a video of how you're using the food for heeling? I know I was doing it all wrong (not saying you are). You REALLY have to get the dog ON THE FOOD. Hand position needs to be where head is in the air and butt is DOWN for you to get full control. I'll try and take a video of Elsa and I later to show you (not that we are at all good at heeling, but just to try and show you the technique).

Also...as far as the leash. The way I've been taught to use the leash with heeling while training position with the food is that a jangle of the leash while repositioning them where they should be serves as a reminder that they are out of position--whether is is crooked butt or they are getting off the food (aka head down and butt not as engaged). You can you a flat collar and leash for this or put a prong on. Don't use it for a correction, per say, but the "jangle" is greatly enhanced and tends to grab their attention a bit more.

You can also use the leash like JKlatsy was describing.

I've never had a dog heeling the way *I* want--there have always been the forging and butt swinging issues, but the methods I am describing are slowing cleaning up the heeling and REALLY bringing out the flashiness in the heeling. Just remember that the food lure teaches the dog to use their body correcly, not necessarily the "flash"...although by teaching them to engage their butt the right way, their movement is actually better.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Kelli, are you training for Schutzhund or AKC? I cant remember.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not bad, I agree the problems with the position of the dog can be easily fixed in training. I do heeling two ways (with both my dogs) 1: I use a food lure to get them physically used to correct position. The food is not really "training"; I am not waiting for them to offer correct position and rewarding them, I'm simply feeding them the entire time so that as we move around, their bodies get conditioned to be straight, collect in the rear, and use the power from the rear. 2: I use a toy for a reward, but I hold it in my left hand behind the dog's head. When I mean to reward, I give a marker word ("yes!") and pop the toy up so they basically catch it in heel position. I don't throw it forward. Before they catch on that the toy comes up from behind, I might just drop it behind them. At a certain age I also use the leash and prong collar both for corrections and creating a bit more frustration and drive. Nikon needs that more; Pan brings more drive to the table on his own. Aside from heeling, I train eye contact in front and basic position. Before we even start any formal heeling, the dog already understands that eye contact = reward. When the dog is younger and still learning the heeling, I try to be more animated myself, move fairly quickly, make sure to praise the dog as we go along.


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> Do you have a video of how you're using the food for heeling? I know I was doing it all wrong (not saying you are). You REALLY have to get the dog ON THE FOOD. Hand position needs to be where head is in the air and butt is DOWN for you to get full control. I'll try and take a video of Elsa and I later to show you (not that we are at all good at heeling, but just to try and show you the technique).
> 
> Also...as far as the leash. The way I've been taught to use the leash with heeling while training position with the food is that a jangle of the leash while repositioning them where they should be serves as a reminder that they are out of position--whether is is crooked butt or they are getting off the food (aka head down and butt not as engaged). You can you a flat collar and leash for this or put a prong on. Don't use it for a correction, per say, but the "jangle" is greatly enhanced and tends to grab their attention a bit more.


I'll have to try with food and see if I can get a video of it, since he's crazier with the ball that may help slow us down a little bit. I use a prong usually if we're in class but only for the reason you mentioned, i've found that luckily he's very responsive to just the jingling of the collar and i've never really had to use the collar for more than that.

And Dawn, we've been working in Schutzhund, I wouldn't be opposed to working AKC as well.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are so many ways to teach heeling. I use the jangling of the leash to build drive. Often I have a loosely fitting prong on for this. When working on the position, I am more likely to help the dog stay in position with a smaller size, tighter prong. I don't use it for corrections as the dog is learning position and I am helping. I steer with the prong, praise when in the correct position and then mark and reward with food. When teaching it, I have found the drive is not so high with the food and the dog is often better able to work on accuracy with the food as reward. Once I get good accuracy, I may add the toy some to increase drive if needed. 

I also use my voice a lot in teaching heeling. My praise helps with drive, it tells the dog when it is correct and helps it keep going along there also. When the dog moves out of position I use my non-reward marker so that he knows he is in a non-rewardable position and then assist him there with steering. Then happy talk again as he regains the correct place.

Often, I see lots of reliance on a food or a toy with little verbal communication to the dog as to correctness and incorrectness, ones happiness with the performance etc. I try to cover all of these areas of information so that we have a whole training "language" so to speak!


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I like doing heeling a little differently I use a prong with a short lead and a toy. I first get the dog in drive and then for the first few steps take off and put the toy with my right hand on my left shoulder and put the leash in my left hand and say the command. After I get the first few correct steps. I reward with a release and build from a few steps up. Also I can't see the facebook video since I ma not on, but I agree that if you are to the point of putting the toy under the arm to reward the dog. Give your release command in a happy voice and then drop straight down from under your armpit so he can catch it will keep him there. If you have it with the right hand up on the shoulder give the release and then bring forward from the body and slightly down where the dog is still on the left side. Then play tug with him. If you want to use food think of the food like a toy get them animated in wanting the food and chasing the hand with the food and the start the same way. If you keep using food get a climbers chalk bag that you can put food in and keep on the left hip so you can get the food and the dog to stay on the same side for you. Also for the reward keep them close to you to stay engaged and play with them . If you send them away with a toy then it take a bit to get them back and going again.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Mohnwiese has great information on teaching heeling with food, Mohnwiese Click training on the left.

I taught Argos back in the day how to heel with a ball. He just didn't seem to be that into food at the time (really I had to learn more about how to use food...). I constantly struggled with teaching position. (Still do...) Stylistically his heel is very similar to your Odin's. Here is an old video of Argos back when he was 18 months old- he was my very first dog ever so we still had a lot to learn at this point. You can see I'm trying to adjust my ball position and make left turns into him to work on the crowding and forging that I'm getting. (Also DH didn't have a dog and like to play with the videos at this point.)
YouTube - JustinKlatsky's Channel

I completely changed my approach when I got Cade based on some things DH had done with Anka. We went to a food lure heel. This is Cade at 11 months. I am still working out here alot of where my hand needs to be to get the correct position but I think you can still see how this way I have a lot more control over his head and consequently his rear (which we taught with a lot of those little spins and such)

YouTube - JustinKlatsky's Channel

And training is an evolution. I should try and get a video of what we're doing with Tag because it takes elements of what we did with the previous dogs...but we've continued to add in new pieces.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I also use my voice a lot in teaching heeling. My praise helps with drive, it tells the dog when it is correct and helps it keep going along there also. When the dog moves out of position I use my non-reward marker so that he knows he is in a non-rewardable position and then assist him there with steering. Then happy talk again as he regains the correct place.


I will just make this brief comment and leave it. I think nowadays, so many are convinced a ball or food is the only way to teach heeling, they can't see when the dog is just not motivated enough by either. Having a leash on the dog would make a huge difference. Also, what Samba said is about making yourself, the handler, more of the attraction. Some dogs, are much more motivated by praise and enthusiasm from the handler but few seem to recognize this in their dogs. 
If it were me handling Odin, I would have a leash and a training collar, I would walk faster, (which will hold his attention better) , but mostly I would be more animated/enthusiastic and talk to the dog when he is correct. He is there looking at you and waiting for something. Give it to him...meaning attention and happiness for being there with you. Sometimes, bending at the waist a bit and looking at the dog's face while talking to them makes a huge difference. Then as time goes on, you fade the help. You can bring drive in subtle ways by using your body to talk to your dog and you can do it in trials also and not lose a point. You are always there, the ball and food is not. Like I said, some dogs want to work for the handler, so, see if that is your dog.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

I think you are missing the most basic thing. You have to reward the dog when it's heeling in the correct position. In the video you are rewarding the dog for the sit, not the heeling.

Why don't you simply drop the ball from your armpit?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Often, I see lots of reliance on a food or a toy with little verbal communication to the dog as to correctness and incorrectness, ones happiness with the performance etc. I try to cover all of these areas of information so that we have a whole training "language" so to speak!


I was told that I have to cut back. I was using my voice a lot, to a point where I did not even notice that I use my voice, so I had to cut back on that and work more with a toy. I also have to learn to make myself more attractive and more fun to work with. The video I posted is already outdated. She heels much better now than she did a couple of weeks ago and it is amazing what a little "build up" frustration and ritual can do. 

A friend of mine suggested to implement a ritual before you start heeling. Just like I do with tracking. So every time I start heeling, I build up frustration. She's not interested in food and I refuse to starve her so I can work with Food. I don't need the competition heeling since we don't do SchH trials. The focus is there, even without the ball, she heels nicely and straight (something you can't always see with schH dogs) and what I need is her being rock solid on commands. 

What helps too, use a wall. Even if it is the short side, the wall will help you to get the dog into the right position.


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