# Pinned and snarled at another dog



## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

At the park just now (30 minute ago), Bailey pinned and snarled at another dog (an 8/mo bully of sorts, maybe a staffie). We spent about an hour at this park, and the other dog joined us almost straight after. We worked on recall and he left the dog alone for most of the time. After maybe 50 minutes, they came around the corner, and the dog was going in the water. We let Bailey go over (both dogs were offleash), and he was fine. They both sniffed each other, and were happy. Then i threw the ball for Bailey and he ran to get it. After about five minutes he went back over, and I followed him. They both had their tails up high, when meeting this second time. But they were fine. I went down to stroke the other dog, and he got Baileys ball at the same time. Then Bailey growled. I told him to knock it off, and the owner of the other dog gave the ball back to me. I don’t know exactly what happened, but less than 30 seconds later, Bailey was snarling, barking/growling, and pinned the dog down. The dog was submissive, and didn’t really fight back. I pulled Bailey off, and clipped him back on the leash. I put him in a down, and he was fine. I spoke to the other owner to make sure that his dog was fine, and he was (I don’t think Bailey hurt him). And then we left. Bailey walked fine, he wasn’t amped up, he was walking nicely, saw a dog across the road and left it, and ignored all the people. And I hate to be _that_ owner, but he really hasn’t done this. Though maybe there were things that I’ve missed? 
- When he was about 5/6 months, he jumped on a dog, using his paws. A few weeks ago, a dog bullied him. He’s really never been attacked, and I’ve always tried to make other dogs a positive experience for him.

I don’t want him to be dog-aggressive and I’m starting to feel like I’m failing him. Everytime I start to think, “oh, he’s becoming such a good dog!”, he just does something else, or we find out that there is something else that we need to teach. Would he still be like this if he had a better owner? How can I help him? No trainers in my town are German shepherd savvy (most of them are poodle or chihuahua owners). There is a GSD training centre that costs over £100 a session (with a mandatory 6 sessions), and is an hour away. 

Any help would be appreciated


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

Perhaps the ball made an impact. Does Bailey consider that a high value item?


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Zeppy said:


> Perhaps the ball made an impact. Does Bailey consider that a high value item?


I was thinking that. It’s high enough value that he will do tricks for it, but dogs always steal his ball and toys and he’s usually fine. Maybe he’s decided that he doesn’t want them to anymore?

He’s never been a resources guarder. As a younger pup he was fine with other dogs taking his stuff, and even now, he’s 100% fine with humans doing it. My two year old cousin was taking food and toys out of his mouth all day last week, and he didn’t even protest (when we take things from him, we either give it back or give him something better if he wasn’t supposed to have it).


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

How old is Bailey again? Starting to exert his "adult-ness"?

Most the fights I have seen or heard about at dogs parks involved either the entrance (high stress location) or a ball/frisbee guarding issue.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

WNGD said:


> How old is Bailey again? Starting to exert his "adult-ness"?
> 
> Most the fights I have seen or heard about at dogs parks involved either the entrance (high stress location) or a ball/frisbee guarding issue.


He’s 7.5 months. The other dog was 8 months.

Oh, so it’s a common problem? Is it better to train it out, or should I just stop bringing the ball? Or both?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Baileyshuman said:


> He’s 7.5 months. The other dog was 8 months.
> 
> Oh, so it’s a common problem? Is it better to train it out, or should I just stop bringing the ball? Or both?


Yah I'm guessing Bailey is starting to show the typical/common GSD trait. You've often they're not good dog park dogs, not good dog-daycare or kenneling dogs and they often don't share well. Tons of exceptions but this is common.

GSDs don't need to meet/play with other strange dogs. It's fun when it works but disastrous when it doesn't. What if the bully type dog was older/fought back/clamped on? Are you prepared to break up a serious dog fight....that's also where owners get bitten themselves. Heaven help you if he hurts another dog in this society.

It's hard to "train out" what you don't see coming which means you can't trust him off-leash for now. I would be training for eyes-on-me, further engagement and a leave it/ignore command for other dogs. Fetch on a long lead for now or in a space with no other dogs. Not necessarily, but my guess is Bailey will go after another dog eventually.

Don't lose the ball, lose the other dogs. jmo


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Yah I'm guessing Bailey is starting to show the typical/common GSD trait. You've often they're not good dog park dogs, not good dog-daycare or kenneling dogs and they often don't share well. Tons of exceptions but this is common.
> 
> GSDs don't need to meet/play with other strange dogs. It's fun when it works but disastrous when it doesn't. What if the bully type dog was older/fought back/clamped on? Are you prepared to break up a serious dog fight....that's also where owners get bitten themselves. Heaven help you if he hurts another dog in this society.
> 
> ...


Thank you. We don’t usually go to the dog park, this was the only time in months as there was a protest on the route to our usually park (generally there aren’t many dogs at this one, or we can keep him away). I will keep working on engagement and leave it. He’s doing well while on-lead, and can ignore them 8/10 of them time.

as for him going after another dog, what can I do about it? Is he aggressive? What’s wrong with him?
I wasn’t anticipating having a GSD that can’t do anything fun when I bought him. I knew it would be hard work, I knew all the exercise requirements, I _thought_ I knew about the breed. I had vetted six breeders for this dog, and his breeder was the best (so I had thought). Is this normal for a German shepherd / are most like this? Or is it a genetic/trainer problem?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

We have some mega-threads on this forum re: dog parks that might be worth a read. Some different perspectives, and stories (good and bad).

Most people with GSDs don't utilize them. Those that do tend to have pretty strict criteria, and they own individual GSDs that do well in that environment. 

Even dogs that are neutral/polite toward strange dogs can change completely when you add a ball into the picture. One of the huge risks you run is if your young dog has a very negative experience, you'll have to invest a LOT of time and effort undoing it.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

WIBackpacker said:


> We have some mega-threads on this forum re: dog parks that might be worth a read. Some different perspectives, and stories (good and bad).
> 
> Most people with GSDs don't utilize them. Those that do tend to have pretty strict criteria, and they own individual GSDs that do well in that environment.
> 
> Even dogs that are neutral/polite toward strange dogs can change completely when you add a ball into the picture. One of the huge risks you run is if your young dog has a very negative experience, you'll have to invest a LOT of time and effort undoing it.


Thank you. I’ve read through a lot of those now, and I’ve not been to the “dog park” in almost two months. The only reason we went this time was because there was a protest, and I only know of those two parks where he can run off-lead. When we got there it was empty, and we were the only ones there. Then for most of the time, we kept him away from the other dog. I’m partially glad to hear that it’s a common issue, and will have to try my best to work on and prevent it from happening again. Here comes the long line, and no ball when other dogs are about.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Off leash time is the best, it's awesome.
But if another dog shows up, it's best to keep a long line on him or move to another area if possible.
The problem is you have already shown him it's OK to investigate other dogs and now you need to undo that and teach him that you're all that's necessary.

Normally, I'd also say limit him to known friendly dogs but this other dog was friendly. Possessiveness of toys/sticks is very common, pinning other dogs is not common but not rare


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Off leash time is the best, it's awesome.
> But if another dog shows up, it's best to keep a long line on him or move to another area if possible.
> The problem is you have already shown him it's OK to investigate other dogs and now you need to undo that and teach him that you're all that's necessary.
> 
> Normally, I'd also say limit him to known friendly dogs but this other dog was friendly. Possessiveness of toys/sticks is very common, pinning other dogs is not common but not rare


Thank you. I’ll just try to take him to the usual country park if we’re doing off-lead exercise, as we don’t meet many dogs there, and if there is a dog in the distance, we just go into a different part of the park as it’s huge. I think the other park is just bad luck - he loves it there but it never goes well.
I guess I’ll just need to train a lot more, on engagement, and our walks are about us, and us only. A stronger leave-it, and teaching not to approach other dogs. Got it. Thank you.

sorry one final thing: does this mean that he should _never_ play with another dog? He usually does *really* enjoy it when he’s not being a jerk, so it’ll just be a bit unfortunate. But if so, that’s fine, we’ll just have to find another way for him to be happy.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I never interact with other strange dogs or go to dog parks for that very reason. You petted the other dog who had Bailey's ball as well. That probably was the last straw for him. Things evolve in lightning speed when it comes to dog communication and it is hard to correctly figure out what happened. Now you know what to work on and what to avoid. Glad that the owner was cool and basically nothing serious happened. I think toys and treats are reasons for trouble in a dog park. Also a dog, chasing a ball, can cause other dogs to attack.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I never interact with other strange dogs or go to dog parks for that very reason. You *petted the other dog* who had Bailey's ball as well. That probably was the last straw for him. Things evolve in lightning speed when it comes to dog communication and it is hard to correctly figure out what happened. Now you know what to work on and what to avoid. Glad that the owner was cool and basically nothing serious happened. I think toys and treats are reasons for trouble in a dog park. Also a dog, chasing a ball, can cause other dogs to attack.


Thank you. Yeah it’s a lot of new behaviour that I’ve not seen him do before but I guess he’s at that age where he’s revealing his true self now.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

To add my two pesos, Jupiter went to the dog park nearly every day with no issues (mostly to fetch, wasn't possessive, didn't start fights), but around 8-9 months, increasingly got into incidents where he would chase/nip dogs for no good reason that I could discern. After a few weeks of this, I sadly decided to stop taking him to dog parks.

He also gradually got less and less tolerant of dogs on walks who would bark or threaten him.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, his “ ltrue self “ is a GSD.

Your dog is maturing, and he doesn’t need to be at the dog park where some jerk dog (in his eyes) takes his ball.

In my opinion, people mistakenly think that since dogs are pack animals, they are only happy if they run around with a bunch of dogs.

The thing is, yes, they are pack animals, but they are comfortable in THEIR OWN pack, not in an environment where random dogs show up.
Even in their own pack, they can have disagreements.

I choose to keep my dogs well away from strange dogs.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

CactusWren said:


> To add my two pesos, Jupiter went to the dog park nearly every day with no issues (mostly to fetch, wasn't possessive, didn't start fights), but around 8-9 months, increasingly got into incidents where he would chase/nip dogs for no good reason that I could discern. After a few weeks of this, I sadly decided to stop taking him to dog parks.
> 
> *He also gradually got less and less tolerant of dogs on walks who would bark or threaten him.*


Thank you. Hopefully, as we’ve been training for reactivity, we’ll be able to keep on track of it. He’s finally able to ignore dogs that are lunging at him 🙏




Sunflowers said:


> Well, his “ ltrue self “ is a GSD.
> 
> Your dog is maturing, and he doesn’t need to be at the dog park where some jerk dog (in his eyes) takes his ball.


thank you. As I said before, I don’t regularly take him there, and will not take him there any longer even occasionally


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

We took our profile pic girl Rose to dog parks early on, and she mostly enjoyed them. I expect if we took her back to the old one, she'd show excitement and want to right back in.

But we phased it out, pretty much altogether. COVID put a crimp in it. We also started going to a club for training. Eventually we moved to a rural area, and have no such facility nearby nor any need for one. 

Three different breeders (well, one is a former breeder, with 35 litters , and a former canine officer) all told us the risks at dog parks outweighed the upside. 

Balls can be a flashpoint at parks, and even when you don't bring your own, the fields are usually littered with tennis balls, Kongs, etc. And I never saw a dog park that didn't have lots of balls and frisbees in the air at all times. 

Most of the folks we met were all right, even congenial, but you can get the occasional nut job in almost any random meetup scenario. 
And with today's declining civility, dog fights can segue into human conflict. 

That's my take on it. Others feel strongly about positives. In the end, the seem minefield metaphor seems apt. Some might only have one "mine" in a 10 acre field. Or none on a given day, with favorable dynamics among the humans and dogs present. But why risk it?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Most dog parks ask that you not bring toys or treats.
German Shepherds are not commonly social butterflies.
Male teenagers of any species are notorious for being buttheads.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I take a somewhat opposing view. What does your dog learn from getting into a little spat with a dog and then being removed from the situation and kept away from other dogs from that time on? 

From my perspective it's the exact opposite of what you want him to learn! The best examples i can give are from personal experience.

Due to covid it's been a couple years since my dog and I have visited a dog park. But, one of the last times we did a guy came in with his black coated retriever male. I was playing fetch with my dog when they came in, and the retriever came up to say hi to my dog while she was just short of reaching her ball. She stopped to say hi, then went to her her ball. The retriever didn't even know she had a ball, so was following closely.

My dog misinterpreted his close proximity as trying to take her ball, so she warned him off. He took that as an attack and responded in kind, so they had a little spat. The retriever's owner was closest so he got them separated, I picked up the ball, and took my dog for a walk around the park.

After a short walk, we settled quite near this guy and his retriever playing fetch. Pretty soon they took a break, and the dogs again got reacquainted while the owner and I talked for a bit. The dogs were fine! 

Another time, just entering the dog park, there was a lady with a large terrier breed female just getting ready to leave. Something about that dog's demeanor set my dog off and a little spat ensued. I broke it up quickly, apologized to the lady who just hurried on out the gate. I felt bad, but what are ya gonna do.

Few days later same lady and her dog came up to us in the same park. I was relieved, because I didn't want her to feel bad about coming to the park. Anyway, she wasn't the least bit worried about it and explained that she was just in a hurry that day, not to worry.

The interesting thing was the dog's behavior. Whether because they left right away, or there really was a conflict of attitudes or whatever it's hard to say, but both dogs agreed to disagree and gave each other that six foot social distancing thing dogs that don't like each other tend to do. But they could and did coexist from then on without conflict.

Take what you will from these 2 stories, but personally I think the worst thing you can do to your dog is to put a dog in a situation that ends in conflict, and then leave that as a lasting impression! So many stories of "my dog was attacked by a large white dog, for example, so I got outa there and never went back", my dog then forever had a problem with large white dogs! It's worth thinking about...


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I HATE dog parks, I see absolutely nothing to gain from them but bad behaviours and how not to watch dog body language by other owners. I think it grows disrespectful dogs with disrespectful habits.
They are great until they aren’t and that one “aren’t” can be devastating.
David winners occasionally takes his Valor to dog parks but he is a well regarded trainer with expert eyes who will see a problem brewing long before it happens, his dog is also incredibly well trained.
I believe dogs don’t need other dogs to be fulfilled if we as owners do our job properly.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It is the owners who have dogs who get into “little spats” that are the reason I avoid dog parks.

I don’t need my dog to be off leash, vulnerable to aggression from dogs who “misinterpret” this or that. Depending on the dog on the receiving end, little spats can quickly escalate to severely injured people, dogs, or in the worst case, dead dogs.

Since there are owners out there who know their dogs may aggressive others and think this is perfectly OK, I will stay well away, thank you.
It is up to me to protect my dog and not put him in bad situations.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> I take a somewhat opposing view. What does your dog learn from getting into a little spat with a dog and then being removed from the situation and kept away from other dogs from that time on?
> 
> From my perspective it's the exact opposite of what you want him to learn! The best examples i can give are from personal experience.
> 
> ...


This is exactly why I would avoid dog parks. Your dog has initiated 2 grumbles, fights etc yet you continued to go back. Those squabbles could have easily ended with all the dogs engaging. Weak nerved dogs don’t recover from situations like that, leads to permanent issues so why risk it?
Sorry but I just don’t get it.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> I take a somewhat opposing view. What does your dog learn from getting into a little spat with a dog and then being removed from the situation and kept away from other dogs from that time on?
> 
> From my perspective it's the exact opposite of what you want him to learn! The best examples i can give are from personal experience.
> 
> ...


Good point of view Tim but I would just ask you, what would happen if the dogs really locked up, you had trouble breaking them apart, one tore the others ear off or laid the other open for 30 stitches? I don't think the vast majority of people have seen real dog fights from two intense dogs that escalated from the wrong look or a toy in the middle. They can get bloody fast and very difficult to break. I think dog parks are the very worst place imaginable for a GSD to meet other dogs, just my experience, personally and anecdotally.

Don't get me started about those mean black GSD!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> Good point of view Tim but I would just ask you, what would happen if the dogs really locked up, you had trouble breaking them apart, one tore the others ear off or laid the other open for 30 stitches? I don't think the vast majority of people have seen real dog fights from two intense dogs that escalated from the wrong look or a toy in the middle. They can get bloody fast and very difficult to break. I think dog parks are the very worst place imaginable for a GSD to meet other dogs, just my experience, personally and anecdotally.
> 
> Don't get me started about those mean black GSD!


Absolutely!!!!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

To the OP

If you feel it’s important for your dog to play with another dog, find someone who has a stable, neutral sweet dog and arrange controlled play dates.


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## Bear2th (Jun 1, 2021)

Just another opinion…
My first GSD was A male. Extremely well socialized and I could trust him everywhere. EXCEPT around other male dogs around his size and dominant. He adored playing with other dogs of all sizes and would adjust his play style to the size of his playmate. All females were treated like queens and they could do anything to him. Any size male was great for play…as long as they did not challenge him. He would run at a male and bowl him over. If the dog stayed down, he would sniff him over and then the Other dog would get up and they would be great playmates from there on out. But if the other dog challenged him, there could be a dog fight. I had to constantly be vigilant. Being as large as he was, most dogs were not a worry as they would not challenge. Did have a neighbor with a large male husky that got off his chain and the two got into it. Fortunately all sound and no blood drawn. But scary nonetheless. This was long enough ago that there was no such thing as dog parks. But if I was out and about and saw an unknown dog, I immediately leashed my dog to be on the safe side.

So just another thing to consider as you wonder WHY Bailey behaved as he did. I agree that the possessiveness around both the ball and you could certainly have been the spark. But the reactions of an intact male to other males may also play into future interactions. 

i Read your posts with interest as I currently have a 6 month old GSD female. I’ve experienced many of the same issues as you’ve posted about Bailey. Sounds like you are doing a really good job with him!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Saphire said:


> This is exactly why I would avoid dog parks. Your dog has initiated 2 grumbles, fights etc yet you continued to go back. Those squabbles could have easily ended with all the dogs engaging. Weak nerved dogs don’t recover from situations like that, leads to permanent issues so why risk it?
> Sorry but I just don’t get it.


Let me explain. There are things, IMHO, dogs can only learn from experience. And successfully interacting with other dogs is one of them! All dogs are not nice, some are real idiots! No 2 ways about it! 

But I want a dog that can go with me anywhere. And that includes occassionally running into idiot dogs. Dogs that don't have experience in that scenario are much more likely to misinterpret or react badly than a dog who's been there and done that!

My dog has been in been involved in many little dust ups with other dogs. Neither dog has ever been hurt, beyond an occasional tooth mark, surely never required any vet care etc. afterward.

The idea that once 2 females fight, they always will is just so different than my experiences, that I can't help but wonder whether it's their people's response that elicits that reaction!

While I was getting my RV ready for travel I stayed for several months at a huge house with 2 intact male GSD, 1 male Catahoula, 1 male elkhound, 1 male Siberian Huskie, and one female hunting hound dog of some breed I didn't recognize.

My dogs, GSD and a Chihuahua, fit right in. After about a week, we were outside, and my dog and I approached one of the other roommates to chat while outside. His dog, the female hound, took an affront and launched into my dog and they had a brief spat, which we broke up right away. I did not leave the vicinity right away, we just watched and the dogs, of their own volition, maintained their distance. I stayed there several months after that, and could and did pet and play with the hound dog without any further conflict, though the dogs were together out in the yard and in the house without restriction... 

Another scenario, a female Mal in the dog park used to chase my dog, when she was young, as she would run after a ball. This Mal had this habit of chasing and occassionally biting my dog in the shoulder, putting her down. The Mal was not bullying, just a Mal playing like a Mal. 

Understand that the Mal's owners were pretty good about getting her to stop, so it was an annoyance, but not really a "problem", my dog was never injured. 

At around 10 or 11 months, my dog decided she'd had enough. Mal bit shoulder and put her down, only this time my dog came up meaning business and chased her off in what looked like an all out attack...though, my dog was satisfied at just giving the message and didn't persue very far! Anyway, the mal's chasing and biting my dog stopped, and never happened again. Yet the two dogs remained friends and would occasionally play.

Flash forward 4 months, the couple that owned the Mal moved away, then moved back. The Mal was happy to see us arrive at the park, and of course wanted to come over and greet us coming in. My dog met her with tail up, hackles up, growling and showing a bit of teeth!

I said nothing and just left them to figure it out. My dog made it very clear that any approach would be met with hostility, and the Mal gave her space. Anyway, they slowly made their way into the park, my dog maintaining her offputting stance for probably 15 minutes! 

But the Mal kept play bowing and looking away, and finally was able to convince my dog she'd be respectful! They sniffed each other then and even played a little. Again, neither owner said a thing to either dog!

Let me finish with another funny story. There was a large Terrier dog that frequented the dog park wearing a muzzle because he'd be okay, and then just do off. I read dogs pretty well, but this dog was an anomaly, very little load up before an attack. Otherwise he seemed pretty happy go lucky, and really liked people, so I pet him often.

One day, he was mingling around a group of dogs and myself, and he decided to light into my dog! She started to react in kind, then realized he was muzzled and just moved away... Try as you might, people can't teach that, IMHO, it takes experience and a clear head...

So, to me, that is the benefit that far outweighs the risk. My dog has never injured another dog, nor been injured in or outside of a dog park. She meets dogs with a friendly demeanor, and gets along nicely with most!


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> The idea that once 2 females fight, they always will is just so different than my experiences, that I can't help but wonder whether it's their people's response that elicits that reaction!


My Breeder is regularly posting pictures of her pack out playing and running together and can even get them all sitting for a group pic. However two of her bitches have fought and must be separated or they will instantly start again. So only one them at a time can join in the group of 7 to 10 dogs out playing.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

drparker151 said:


> My Breeder is regularly posting pictures of her pack out playing and running together and can even get them all sitting for a group pic. However two of her bitches have fought and must be separated or they will instantly start again. So only one them at a time can join in the group of 7 to 10 dogs out playing.


A pack that lives together is very different from a dog park full of unknown dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A dog parks works until one day you encounter the wrong dog and/or owner.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow is 11 next month, wow, and has basically never played with another dog outside of my own. She does not like other dogs, they don't like her either, and I have worked incredibly hard to get her to even ignore them on walks. She is violently afraid, and it has taken years to get her to this point.
Dogs don't need to play with random strange dogs, anymore then people need to play with random strange people. Things may be great, right up until they aren't. Why risk it?
Consider that most dog park patrons have little to no knowledge of dog behavior, also that many are germ ridden disease buffets. I fail to see the upside of routine use.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> Let me explain. There are things, IMHO, dogs can only learn from experience. And successfully interacting with other dogs is one of them! All dogs are not nice, some are real idiots! No 2 ways about it!
> 
> But I want a dog that can go with me anywhere. And that includes occassionally running into idiot dogs. Dogs that don't have experience in that scenario are much more likely to misinterpret or react badly than a dog who's been there and done that!
> 
> ...


Dog’s do not need to play with strange dogs in a dog park to learn to ignore idiot dogs. They certainly don’t need to have scraps to learn how to behave. Gus has never been to a dog park and ignores all dogs except those that live with him. It’s simply a training issue, I had him focus on me, not dogs.
I’m glad it’s worked for you but a dog with weak nerves could be ruined for life.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

@tim_s_adams , how do you know that the dogs your dog has gotten into it with, didn’t have problems because of these bad encounters?
If you KNOW your dog has a tendency to be like this, why not keep him away from other dogs?

You seem to think you and your dog benefit, but what about those on the other side of this?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

drparker151 said:


> My Breeder is regularly posting pictures of her pack out playing and running together and can even get them all sitting for a group pic. However two of her bitches have fought and must be separated or they will instantly start again. So only one them at a time can join in the group of 7 to 10 dogs out playing.


Yeah, I have seen that, both with males and some females! It does happen. And that's exactly why I think those early interactions among older puppies or young dogs is so important! That learning comes easier when they're young...

I suppose there are some exceptional dogs that just have an inherent ability to avoid conflict. Most dogs need to learn it.

Though my dog has always had pretty good discernment, she went through some stages growing up that definitely required guidance! Especially in her interactions with other dogs.

I don't allow her to bully, or for other dogs to bully her. That's entirely different! But I think a lot of people jump to the conclusion their dog is being bullied when it really isn't, that's how dogs communicate. 

It's just hard for me to sit back and hear that pat advice given over and over that dogs don't need to play with other dogs. IME it's just the opposite! They can and do learn so much from playing with other dogs that I couldn't imagine depriving them of that! And yes, there will be spats, it goes with the territory...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Saphire said:


> Dog’s do not need to play with strange dogs in a dog park to learn to ignore idiot dogs. They certainly don’t need to have scraps to learn how to behave. Gus has never been to a dog park and ignores all dogs except those that live with him. It’s simply a training issue, I had him focus on me, not dogs.
> I’m glad it’s worked for you but a dog with weak nerves could be ruined for life.


So you've never been to a dog park, but feel qualified to talk about them? Is this from random internet horror stories?

Most people on this forum who speak badly about dog parks don't and haven't gone!

We can agree to disagree, I just like to offer another perspective. I"ve never owned a dog that didn't get into an occasional spat while growing up... And I've never taken any of my other dogs to dog parks either.

Seriously, it wasn't my intention to derail the thread, just to offer another perspective.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Tim I don't doubt your life experience regarding dogs learning how to interact with each other. But I don't think it's q good idea to encourage people to do things that are beyond their skill level at present and put their dogs and themselves in jeopardy.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> Tim I don't doubt your life experience regarding dogs learning how to interact with each other. But I don't think it's q good idea to encourage people to do things that are beyond their skill level at present and put their dogs and themselves in jeopardy.


Point taken. I don't believe it's fair to offer advice about something like a dog park, if you don't or have never gone either.

Truth is, I'm not trying to encourage people to do anything! Just relating my own experiences which differ greatly from the very vocal, anti dog park crowd...


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think the word need gets thrown around a lot. What a dog needs is air, water, and food. Everything else is talking about giving them a fulfilling life. Based on the amount of happy and satisfied dogs that live without interacting with random dogs, I would say that’s not required to live a happy and fulfilled life. As for improving their interactions with other dogs, I don’t know how true that is. I have two dogs right now. One has had a multitude of interactions with random dogs. He’s spent a lot of time at dog parks and such. The other has fewer interactions in his life and has never been to a dog park. The first dog has far more dog aggression and is far more likely to start fights.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Point taken. I don't believe it's fair to offer advice about something like a dog park, if you don't or have never gone either.


I have been to dog parks. My Dane was attacked in one. I personally know several dogs that have been attacked in them, also several dogs that have picked up parasites or infections in them.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Saphire said:


> A pack that lives together is very different from a dog park full of unknown dogs.


The point was even someone who is experienced with having multiple GSDs interacting without issues has bitches that will fight to the death if left to interact.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baileyshuman said:


> At the park just now (30 minute ago), Bailey pinned and snarled at another dog (an 8/mo bully of sorts, maybe a staffie). We spent about an hour at this park, and the other dog joined us almost straight after. We worked on recall and he left the dog alone for most of the time. After maybe 50 minutes, they came around the corner, and the dog was going in the water. We let Bailey go over (both dogs were offleash), and he was fine. They both sniffed each other, and were happy. Then i threw the ball for Bailey and he ran to get it. After about five minutes he went back over, and I followed him. They both had their tails up high, when meeting this second time. But they were fine. I went down to stroke the other dog, and he got Baileys ball at the same time. Then Bailey growled. I told him to knock it off, and the owner of the other dog gave the ball back to me. I don’t know exactly what happened, but less than 30 seconds later, Bailey was snarling, barking/growling, and pinned the dog down. The dog was submissive, and didn’t really fight back. I pulled Bailey off, and clipped him back on the leash. I put him in a down, and he was fine. I spoke to the other owner to make sure that his dog was fine, and he was (I don’t think Bailey hurt him). And then we left. Bailey walked fine, he wasn’t amped up, he was walking nicely, saw a dog across the road and left it, and ignored all the people. And I hate to be _that_ owner, but he really hasn’t done this. Though maybe there were things that I’ve missed?
> - When he was about 5/6 months, he jumped on a dog, using his paws. A few weeks ago, a dog bullied him. He’s really never been attacked, and I’ve always tried to make other dogs a positive experience for him.
> 
> I don’t want him to be dog-aggressive and I’m starting to feel like I’m failing him. Everytime I start to think, “oh, he’s becoming such a good dog!”, he just does something else, or we find out that there is something else that we need to teach. Would he still be like this if he had a better owner? How can I help him? No trainers in my town are German shepherd savvy (most of them are poodle or chihuahua owners). There is a GSD training centre that costs over £100 a session (with a mandatory 6 sessions), and is an hour away.
> ...


 I didn't read the whole thread so hopefully none of this is a repeat. But your story sounds remarkably similar to what i did with my second GSD which I now feel was a big mistake. I never took her to "dog parks" per se but lots of the places we hiked had a lot of offleash dogs that I allowed her to interact with. 

I'll never know...but I think I handled her "teenage" phase wrong with respect to what she was, a possessive working line shepherd, and I expected her to play w hen other dogs wanted to play and share her toys. I wish I had only gone to less populated places and taught her to ignore all other dogs and never had her valued reward toys out with other loose dogs around. I wish I had realized that communal offleash dog walking trails can be as bad as dog parks and she was bullied a few times although never attacked.

If I had it to do over, I would have both been more strict with her about what behavior I would tolerate from her- but I also would have been much more strict about letting other dogs near her. I do believe some of her later temper was due to the fact that I didn't enforce boundaries for her when she needed me to.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> So you've never been to a dog park, but feel qualified to talk about them? Is this from random internet horror stories?
> 
> Most people on this forum who speak badly about dog parks don't and haven't gone!
> 
> ...


Oh I’ve been to dog parks, outside the fencing to do training with Gus and teach him how to focus on me with dogs going bananas as a distraction but they are inside the dog park. Their owners get soooo upset calling theirs dogs away only to be totally ignored. I went with a friend and her dog years ago and watched a guy come in with his dog on a leash only to be screamed at because leashes aren’t allowed. He reluctantly let his dog off leash, it ran to the first person and nailed her on the thigh. He said “ya I was worried about that, he doesn’t like people”.
Gus was not an easy dog for my level of experience but if I can train him to ignore other dogs, others can do the same, there is no need to let dogs fight thinking that teaches them conflict resolution skills IMHO.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

drparker151 said:


> The point was even someone who is experienced with having multiple GSDs interacting without issues has bitches that will fight to the death if left to interact.


I’m sorry I misinterpreted, my apologies. I have a mother and daughter Schipperke that will fight to the death so I know to well how bad it can go.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

For what happened here, I can’t give you a definitive answer because I don’t have enough details. It most likely was resource guarding you or the ball. You’re dog has hit sexual maturity so I would anticipate seeing some changes in his personality. I think your dog is going to be who he’s going to be. I don’t think you’ve ruined him or anything. I treated my dogs with the understanding that one day they may not like being around other dogs and I wouldn’t be able to force them to like dogs they don’t like. I could enforce certain rules to reduce the chance of a fight or make them tolerate other dogs. I believe it’s a terrible idea to have high value items around multiple dogs. I think the important thing is learning to read dogs and your dog especially, and being able to see when things are about to go sideways. Sometimes things happen faster than you can react though. That’s why I don’t like meeting other random dogs. At least with my friends I know we’re on the same page about how to handle things.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I take a somewhat opposing view. What does your dog learn from getting into a little spat with a dog and then being removed from the situation and kept away from other dogs from that time on?
> 
> From my perspective it's the exact opposite of what you want him to learn! The best examples i can give are from personal experience.
> 
> ...


To me this is kind of a perfect explanation of what's wrong with random dogs interacting. They DO mis-communicate. It happens from time to time in my playgroups but 90% of the time, I know all the dogs in the group really well except for maybe the one new one so I see it coming and I run interference and sort things out for them so they don't feel threatened or freaked out.

Read my post above. Tim if I had happened along with my old bitch not knowing any better, and that same spat had occurred between our two bitches, it would have been a blood bath. 

You just don't know what other dog is coming...your dog and that dog have a little or big misunderstanding, and now you can never take it back. 

I put dogs together in playgroups all the time, but first I take a social history from the owner. Only the very lowest risk dogs ever go to playgroup. Even if they pass the owner interview I still have to see the dog be calm and appropriate or it isn't happening.

And I can't tell you how many owners think the solution to their dogs totally inappropriate or dangerous behavior is to "socialize it at the dog park"


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have been to dog parks and found it to be a hit or miss experience. Not worth to put my dogs at risk.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> Let me explain. There are things, IMHO, dogs can only learn from experience. And successfully interacting with other dogs is one of them! All dogs are not nice, some are real idiots! No 2 ways about it!
> 
> But I want a dog that can go with me anywhere. And that includes occassionally running into idiot dogs. Dogs that don't have experience in that scenario are much more likely to misinterpret or react badly than a dog who's been there and done that!
> 
> ...


This all sounds so, so dangerous and absurd it just gives me anxiety to read it.

I also don't allow dogs in play group if they chase and bite, knock dogs down while running, etc. That's rude, dangerous, and it scares the crap out of the victim usually. 

I truly feel less is more when it comes to dog interactions. My 6 y/o male has never been in a dog fight unless you count the one time he stood up to my old bitch when she lit into him for nothing and he was finally an adult and they did get in each other's face for a second or two before I shut it down. You have to really push this dog for him to engage. 

He interacts with TONS of dogs and he is super trustworthy with pretty much any socially appropriate neutered male or female. My experience has been that when I get dogs that have spent most of their life in big group daycares a LOT of them have a get 'em before the get me attitude. 

A lot of combustible interactions does not make a well balanced dog in my opinion. Give me any day a dog who has been supported, put in good situations with stable dogs, looks to the handler and trusts the handler to make things right. In my experience this dog is more likely not to go any fight they are invited to. Dogs like this are more relaxed and appropriate and less likely to trigger stuff with unnecessary tension.

Once in my dog's life a non family dog has gone at him for nothing. It was my friend's dog. She and I tried a little too long to make our boys stay neutral so we could hike together. I let her talk me into it, and that day was the last time they have laid eyes on each other. That dog went up in my dog's face and my dog backed away slowly and took it because he saw me running to save him and he knows I don't want him to fight. My friend's dog isn't dangerous at all, he is just a jerk. If it were up to my friend we would still be hiking together because things like that don't really bother her. But I said no, never.

I feel like my dog is calm enough to just let me come get the other dog because he DOESN'T get mistreated by other dogs regularly. At some point if I let my friend's dog keep acting like that around my dog, he would fight back. I don't want him to fight, period. There's just no need. I don't want that drama in our lives.


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## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

Two young male dogs, and strangers, that's a whole lot of hormones. It could be a fluke thing or Bailey could be hitting maturity and he may be becoming less tolerant of other dogs, or it could be a resource guarding thing. If Bailey had wanted to hurt the other dog he would have though, so for now I would be a little more choosey over the dogs he meets (if you decide to let him meet any at all!) and pay close attention Bailey's body language. If you're not comfortable with it then doing some training classes never hurts to get an outside perspective.

Personally I don't let my dogs meet strange dogs unless I feel very confident that the dog is friendly and the owner clearly has control over them. I do expect my dogs to react appropriately if a strange dog does happen to run up to them though, so that is why I occasionally let them say hello to dogs we meet out and about, just for socialization purposes. But I do this rarely as I also don't want them expecting to meet every single dog we pass, I just want them to feel positive and not defensive when a dog does approach.

We have family and friends who have dogs and we will bring our dogs when we visit with each other. My dogs know them and they are almost like an extension of our 'pack' so my dogs enjoy the playtime and I feel safe letting them have that time, for me this is the best solution.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

a couple of things to consider…
OP is a teen, as clearly stated in their username block. let’s make sure we’re being responsible with our advice.
also, a previous thread reveals that this young dog has already had a negative encounter at a dog park, fairly recently. could be playing a part in this incident.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

There's always two sides to this, it's like a contagious disease...
the next time the "pinned" dog encounters another big dog that looks like a GSD, he might lunge and snarl?
Even though you'll never know that was the effect...

My dog is like the one mentioned earlier in the thread - he has conflict with other large dominant males.
Size and gender I can figure out, but the dominant/submissive ratio is impossible to figure out without knowing the other dog quite well, so that's why I avoid the unpredictable atmosphere of dog parks. Because I am the owner of the large, "wolfy" looking dog, even one growl from him and other owners will leash their dogs and leave. (We emptied the park once...sigh.) Anyway we gave up on dog parks, but not on dog friends!

A dog friend is different than a dog park! A dog friend is another familiar dog which your dog likes, likes to say Hi to and play with and walk with...I believe this is very good for them, and so different from the random encounters at dog parks. ( We have "dog friends" in our neighborhood where I will let Rumo say a leisurely Hi, or if they are out walking, we will walk with them for a bit.)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There is so much social pressure that causes so much social angst. That makes things worse then it is. There are more issues with dogs today before dog parks existed. Dogs can pick up and learn bully type of behavior that it received at dog parks rather quickly. When continuously subjected that kind of situation, it more so at a young age, it gets ingrained and they continue to spread that pattern of behavior. I saw it with my moms dog that bully type of behavior.

Dog Parks are meant for the more naturally super social, non defensive , non controlling type of breeds like labs , huskies etc. in mind. For the most part if toys are allowed at a dog park - the dogs are expected to be okay with sharing their toy. German shepherds can be controlling, assertive , possessive, they are a breed with aggression non species specific , many have a high pack drive and naturally all of their attention rather go to their people - as they are a herding breed. The reality is many people take their dogs to dog parks regardless of their dog personality type and want them to conform to the present social guidelines. Many people are not flexible to the changes their dog goes through as they mature and traits start to fully take hold. Also many have issues of controlling their own dogs when issues arise, so they go to that thought of -let unknown dogs work it out, they need to learn. In addition so many larger sized pups have no other dog park options and go on the larger segregated section of the dog park and thrown into a free for all with large adult dogs. These are the reasons why there are issues at dog parks.

I would pass on dog parks. For many German shepherds their most prized possession is their ball. Many gsds are strong independent thinkers. How would someone here react if a stranger tried to take ones wallet. For some gsds it’s the same thing. Wolf type looking dogs especially, if having German Shepherd tagged to it, even when bears teeth it would start a flurry at the dog park with non gsd people and judgment sets sail. Many German shepherds do not make good dog park dogs. There are so many other ways you can enjoy this breed. Interacting with other dogs should not be a focus but the focus on interacting with you - this brings out their true self.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

As humans, we avoid those we don’t like and don’t want to interact with, correct? Now we aren’t dogs, we are much smarter and have set controls that kick in to do this but, If someone we dislike comes at us hard, what do we do? Fight or flight, whyy do we expect so much more from our dogs……


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm not sure the "dog park" is the topic or issue here, as what happened in this thread is Bailey encountered ONE other dog. Not a dozen of other unsupervised dogs pogoing everywhere.
This anecdote sounds very classic to me, you will often see this in working breeds when they go into working mode in the wrong context.
The thing is all dogs/breeds don't take the "ball" or any type of collaborative activity as seriously as a GSD does. Not all breeds are that touchy about their owner's "perimeter" either.
This doesn't mean you can never get a ball out when other dogs are present, but you have to make sure it's actually compatible with what's going on around you.
In a caricatured way, you don't want to have a "working mode on" shepherd in the middle of a happy go lucky, "don't have a clue about the ball and personal space" Lab/bully fiesta. This would definitely be asking for trouble 
My guess is that the ball and the petting have irritated Bailey.
It's not a huge event though, don't make is a huge concern. Just keep that in mind for next time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I use dog parks to test and proof training, and to exercise my dog when I'm camping in an area that has limited options.

In general, I think dog parks are a horrible idea for most breeds and dogs unless there is a fairly regular group that gets to know each other and gets along.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

True. In our area there is a self policing group of regulars that seems to work. I think because the dogs know each other. Mainly llabs, spaniels and doodles.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I use dog parks to test and proof training, and to exercise my dog when I'm camping in an area that has limited options.
> 
> In general, I think dog parks are a horrible idea for most breeds and dogs unless there is a *fairly regular group that gets to know each other and gets along.*


Think of you and a dozen buddies playing pick-up basketball and some random dude shows up with a ball and wants to sub in.

This of you and 3 buddies playing pool in a bar and some random dude steps up and puts his quarter on the table as "next up"

Like the dog park with random dogs subbing in and out with varied personalities and levels of appropriateness, neither scenario generally goes too well.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Some of you may be interested in reading Mark Bekoff's work. He is an ethologist -- a scientist who studies the behavior of animals.

Here is an essay he wrote:








Social Behavior of Dogs at an Off-Leash Park in Newfoundland


A study of free-running dogs showed sex, age, and size influenced behavior.




www.psychologytoday.com





Perhaps his key point could be:
"As in all interactions between humans and dogs, we must take into account the dog's point of view -- what they want and need -- and listen to them very carefully."

Which takes for granted that we learn to listen to our dogs.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Thank you everyone for your input. I’m kind of reading through all the responses, now.

I would just like to say that it’s not a dog park specifically. There are no signs, there isn’t even a real bin aha (there is a bin bag tied to a gate on one side of the park though). We don’t go if there are dogs, because of all the risks, and when we got there this time, it was empty.

I’m going to work on teaching him to not go to other dogs as well, as that seems to be the general consensus.

I don’t think he needs other dogs to be fulfilled, but I just know that he does like playing with them. I think play dates would be a good idea with the right dog, but won’t rush into it.

I’m not too sure if that covers everything as this thread got quite long (though I appreciate it).
I’ve had to learn a lot about dogs since getting Bailey, and I’ve got a lot more to learn. I just don’t want to mess this dog up…


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm sure my own dogs would never have reached the level of consciousness, reliability and overall balance the are exhibiting today without other dogs in their life. I've seen them learn and teach so much I can't advise anyone to cut off their dog from their species.
Do you have these FB "dog walk" groups locally?
I never needed to post on FB as we have enough regulars in my area to plan walks or other stuff when needed.
But I'm still following one of these groups and I see great things happening.
Some people simply find other compatible dogs for playdates but there's aslo so much more to it.
Reactive dogs are trained and desensitized with the help of relaxed neighbor dogs. 
Some use group walks to teach leash walk and obedience with distractions, and reward their dogs with freedom at the end of the walk, etc.
There are people and dogs with all kinds of needs on this group and I think it's really cool they can connect that way


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

PS Bailey is gorgeous.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> I'm sure my own dogs would never have reached the level of consciousness, reliability and overall balance the are exhibiting today without other dogs in their life. I've seen them learn and teach so much I can't advise anyone to cut off their dog from their species.
> Do you have these FB "dog walk" groups locally?
> I never needed to post on FB as we have enough regulars in my area to plan walks or other stuff when needed.
> But I'm still following one of these groups and I see great things happening.
> ...


Thank you! Group walks sound great actually. I will have to look out for some and maybe watch one before taking Bailey.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Baileyshuman said:


> Thank you everyone for your input. I’m kind of reading through all the responses, now.
> 
> I would just like to say that it’s not a dog park specifically. There are no signs, there isn’t even a real bin aha (there is a bin bag tied to a gate on one side of the park though). We don’t go if there are dogs, because of all the risks, and when we got there this time, it was empty.
> 
> ...


I have nothing to add but why do our aggressive breed dogs always looks so sweet in pictures. What a pretty boy.


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## Baileyshuman (Apr 26, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have nothing to add but why do our aggressive breed dogs always looks so sweet in pictures. What a pretty boy.


hahah they always look like sweethearts… he usually acts like a good boy 8.5/10 of the time 🙈


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