# Training Protocol for Flirt Pole



## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

I just bought a Flirt Pole. Now how do I train my dog with it?

I got it to train him to "take", "leave it", "drop". Not sure how to go about doing this without him tearing the furry animal to shreds.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You can manage it however you like just keep it on the ground and make wide sweeping movements. Avoid erratic movements that could lead to injury.

For training I'll have mine sit/down and release them them to chase it. My female has a problem with outing so I occasionally let her "parade" around with it before she will out.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

I trained wick the commands before using the pole and now use it to practice/strengthen them (mostly because he was so into it there was too much excitement to teach with it) I always let Wick prance and shake the sock on the end for a while before starting again because mostly I use the pole as a play toy/exercise tool and he thinks that part is fun


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

There are a couple of instructional videos on youtube.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

As wick pointed out,it may be way too exciting until he actually knows the commands.You could just use it for play at first,then incorporate training into the sessions.My dogs love it and it's such a great tool to teach impulse control.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

With Robyn I taught the commands--wait, drop it and out, get it and bring it---then made those commands stronger with the flirt pole. I have to eork with Apollo on that and will start this weekend. It's hard when it comes to the flirt pole because that is like Robyn's all time favorite thing and she gets super excited whenever she sees it.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Tchai used to have a problem with impulse control, so we started using the flirt pole to develop it and he's doing soooo much better! Now I can wave it right in front of his nose and he barely blinks


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I NEED to get a flirt pole or make one.. I have always "intended" on doing this and just haven't. I really think Titan could have some fun with this and it could help tucker him out if I'm tuckered out  

OP-in my experience, trying to teach your dog new commands with something so stimulating may not work very well. Tried this with Titan (with his FAVORITE soccer ball) and I was only ever able to do it with his drive when I taught him the commands with treats (not nearly as exciting as with a tug or something). Then with the basics down, added the toys or high high drive tools to teach him control in high drive situations. I'd go with the others in that it might be best for yout o teach the command first, then transfer it to the flirt pole. Plus starting out with the flirt pole as a toy instead would make it more desirable and could def help when teaching impulse control.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I would teach commands with treats first, then move to a tug, then flirt pole. I use a release word to tell him he did good and he could chase it.

They are super easy to make. Mine is just 3/4" PVC with a bungee inside attached to a long piece of paracord. I have to change out the toy pretty frequently so those cheap no stuffing squeaker animals work well for puppies and are irresistible.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I used the flirt pole to build prey drive in one puppy. I created a nut case. Haven't used it for anything else. (I used a buggy whip or lunge line, don't remember which, and tied a rag on the end of it. Terribly difficult...)
If the toy/flag gets torn to pieces, replace it. Might take a couple of minutes, probably have to untie and tie a knot.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

Thanks for the tips everyone. I guess I'll wait a bit and reinforce some commands.

We play "tug" (I have no idea if I'm playing it right), but the only way for me to get the toy back from him is to pry his jaws open with my hands. Having said that, I think he'd tear the small fuzzy off the flirt pole in no time.

Here is the flirt pole I bought:

[ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Kyjen-Tail-Teaser-Dog-Refill/dp/B0042I5G2I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1432222337&sr=8-1&keywords=flirt+pole[/ame]


Can't wait to use this thing on rainy days or when it's sweltering hot outside.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What is it that you want to train with the flirt pole? Or what is your end goal with it?

The advice you've received so far, is using the flirt pole as a reward...not really teaching your dog anything.

If your goal is bite sport...the flirt pole isn't used as a reward. It's used to build drive. A flirt pole allows the handler to move a prey object much quicker than with just their hands...also get's their hands away from the danger zone.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

martemchik said:


> What is it that you want to train with the flirt pole? Or what is your end goal with it?


Take It, Leave It, Give It.

Also, that he can't chase something unless I allow him too (like cats and cattle).

Also, mental stimulation for a rainy day or hot/hazy/humid day when exercise is not really possible.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

spacenuts said:


> Take It, Leave It, Give It.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All these things should be taught at a lesser level of drive. With a tug or something that you can control much easier.

A flirt pole will be a lot of stimulation for that, and your dog isn't likely to actually learn those commands while using the flirt pole as a reward.

Once you've taught those commands off the flirt pole, you can incorporate the flirt pole into the training as that is going to really bring up his drive level.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

martemchik said:


> All these things should be taught at a lesser level of drive. With a tug or something that you can control much easier.


I'm looking for threads around here for playing tug properly. So far, I haven't found any. But I am using that big thick braided rope with the tennis ball on the end. I'm teaching him "take" and "give" with it, but as I mentioned before, "give" means I have to pry his jaws open with my hands - but he doesn't bite me which is a step in the right direction.

I'm starting obedience training classes tonight with a trainer that breeds GSD's and trains dogs for the police (and movie sets, etc.). I'll try to get a chance to ask them about the Flirt Pole and Tug once they see my dog in action.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The dog shouldn't have a "take" command. If you're using a tug toy as a reward, and your dog has natural drive for that, you need a marker word, and a release word.

So you'll mark the behavior you want from your dog, then release the dog to the reward. A lot of people will also release on the marker word. So you say "yes" and present the tug. Dog takes the tug, you play tug. Let the dog win. If you're really doing this as a reward, don't command the dog to out. The dog loses then. You're asking for another action.

If you're only giving the tug to your dog when you say "take it." It's not a game anymore, it's a job. The dog is only doing it because you tell it to.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here is a thread about what IMO is an incorrect way to play tug...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...war-if-anyone-interested-my-method-nilif.html

In the video, the dog is so programmed to only play when it is allowed, and to stop the moment it gets told to out, you can see it's not really having fun. Tugging isn't a reward in this scenario, tugging ends up being part of the obedience exercise. The dog was taught that tugging is what the handler wants, and it does it because it's been taught to it. When you only allow your dog to tug on your terms, you're basically training that behavior instead of allowing the tug to be the reward the dog gets for doing a behavior it naturally doesn't want to do.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

martemchik said:


> The dog shouldn't have a "take" command. If you're using a tug toy as a reward, and your dog has natural drive for that, you need a marker word, and a release word.
> 
> So you'll mark the behavior you want from your dog, then release the dog to the reward. A lot of people will also release on the marker word. So you say "yes" and present the tug. Dog takes the tug, you play tug. Let the dog win. If you're really doing this as a reward, don't command the dog to out. The dog loses then. You're asking for another action.
> 
> If you're only giving the tug to your dog when you say "take it." It's not a game anymore, it's a job. The dog is only doing it because you tell it to.


Can you eleborate on that? If you don't out the dog what is the next step?


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

martemchik said:


> The dog shouldn't have a "take" command. If you're using a tug toy as a reward, and your dog has natural drive for that, you need a marker word, and a release word.
> 
> So you'll mark the behavior you want from your dog, then release the dog to the reward. A lot of people will also release on the marker word. So you say "yes" and present the tug. Dog takes the tug, you play tug. Let the dog win. If you're really doing this as a reward, don't command the dog to out. The dog loses then. You're asking for another action.
> 
> If you're only giving the tug to your dog when you say "take it." It's not a game anymore, it's a job. The dog is only doing it because you tell it to.


This is all over my head. I guess I don't understand the difference between "work" and "play".

Sometimes I do chuck the tug toy across the yard. He knows he has to sit for me to throw it. So I throw, he runs after it and gets it and runs around with it, but he NEVER brings it back to me and I have to go running to him to get it.

Anyhow......

That video - totally confused about it, but more so what the OP wrote in his post. Never heard of letting the dog win 70% and the human wins 30% of the time. Seems to me that's the way a human thinks and not how a dog thinks.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I disagree on not teaching out. I teach out because I think it's difficult to use toys as a reward if you are limited to always keeping your hands on the toy. The way I teach out is by saying the cue then holding the toy completely still, next to my body, calm, and when they dog releases I say "YES!" and give it back to them and play even harder. They learn that "out" does not mean the game is over, so when I actually NEED to use it for practical reasons (like they're grabbing the toy at the wrong time because I screwed up, or they have something they shouldn't have), they have no hesitation or negative association with outing. 

If you are just doing pet dog training, there's absolutely nothing wrong with just using the tug as a reward for obedience, it's just a lot easier to teach your commands first with food rewards because it allows you to position the dog's body more precisely. The tug and flirt pole can be used as rewards later to get more speed, enthusiasm, drive as Martemchik says. 

To me it is less about what the dog is doing than their attitude. My puppy was imprinted with sit + eye contact as his alert for cadaver, so he does that behavior all the time to ask to play with me. I am not making him do it, he offers the behavior because he knows it will get him what he wants, which is a good play session. IMO the wrong way to do it would be to be stingy with your play and unexciting with your own body movements. If you say "sit" in a military fashion and then present your dog with the toy without really engaging them in play, they aren't really going to see it as a reward. 

With him running off with the toy, try and use two toys and throw the first toy a short distance, then become happy crazy exciting person and run off with the other toy. When he comes to you, you can say YES!! or whatever marker word you are using and throw the other toy. He will probably drop the first toy. Keep doing this until he is dropping the first toy more often, then wait to say yes until he drops it. This teaches him that coming to you and dropping the toy is a good way to get more exciting play, and teaches retrieving.

With the flirt pole, I wanted my puppy to see it as a super high value reward, so I did no training at all with it for about a month. I just let him play with it and do whatever he wanted with it, including biting the wrong end and dragging it around on his own. He learned it was the most fun, awesome thing ever. Now I can use it as a high value reward in situations where the environment is distracting, or when I want to see a lot more "oomph" out of him (like recalling and giving his alert for live find).

This is a good example of how to use food and tug with your dog, IMO, notice the commands have already been taught:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiTMEA4vZ3s 

Anyway all this is just my thoughts, and there are many ways to train a dog. I think I would listen to all the advice given and just do what works best for you and your pup.  You don't want to worry about play so much that it's not fun for you anymore.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The best analogy I can use, is that if you were to play basketball, and instead of letting you play, the coach controlled everything you did. So…the reward in basketball is taking a shot, what if you had to wait for the coach to let you take the shot every time? Wouldn’t be fun anymore right? That’s the same way your dog thinks if you’re constantly commanding it to either “take it” or to “give it.” The dog is constantly waiting for the next command instead of just having fun with the toy. The reward is the interaction through the toy, the toy or the tugging action should never be an expected command that comes from the handler, it should just be natural. This is also all dependent on your dog’s natural drive to tug/pull/fight. If the dog naturally enjoys this type of interaction…that’s when it helps with faster learning. So…dog learns that the faster it sits, the faster it will get rewarded with a game of tug. It doesn’t take long for the dog to start sitting quick in order to get the reward.

A flirt pole is basically an intermediary to help build drive for that toy. You can move the toy faster with a flirt pole and further, driving the dog to go for the prey object. The chase/game is the fun part for a dog with natural prey drive. The flirt pole works as a lever to allow you to move something faster and further with smaller quicker movements of your own hand. It’s basically just a tool to activate a dog’s natural prey drive or to bring more out if the dog doesn’t have that much to begin with. A lot of times, this helps with dogs that have been taught to not take anything from human hands, as due to that training they will not take anything from a hand, but a flirt pole is impersonal enough to where the dog is allowed to grab the tug from the end of it even though the human is still controlling it and is then able to tug.

In regards to “the next step” after the dog has the toy, I personally don’t out. I want the dog to know it was successful, it beat me, and that it gets to keep its reward. So I always let the dog hold the reward for some time…but then either I force the toy out of the dogs mouth by picking the dog up by the collar, or I wait for the dog to just drop the toy and quickly remove it from the dog’s reach and the obedience begins again where the dog has to perform something I want in order to get the toy back. Some dogs are possessive and like just having the tug toy, other dogs like the fighting/tugging action and will drop the toy once the play stops anyways. It really depends on the dog. But the goal is to remove the tug from the dog’s reach as quickly as possible once you see the dog has lost interest and the “reward” is wearing off. Make the attraction to the toy again, ask for an exercise, reward with the toy. Later on…you stretch the expected exercise, or you bridge the exercises together with bridge words. Dog doesn’t always get the reward, but dog keeps the drive for the reward.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

martemchik said:


> The best analogy I can use, is that if you were to play basketball, and instead of letting you play, the coach controlled everything you did. So…the reward in basketball is taking a shot, what if you had to wait for the coach to let you take the shot every time? Wouldn’t be fun anymore right? That’s the same way your dog thinks if you’re constantly commanding it to either “take it” or to “give it.” The dog is constantly waiting for the next command instead of just having fun with the toy. The reward is the interaction through the toy, the toy or the tugging action should never be an expected command that comes from the handler, it should just be natural. This is also all dependent on your dog’s natural drive to tug/pull/fight. If the dog naturally enjoys this type of interaction…that’s when it helps with faster learning. So…dog learns that the faster it sits, the faster it will get rewarded with a game of tug. It doesn’t take long for the dog to start sitting quick in order to get the reward.
> 
> A flirt pole is basically an intermediary to help build drive for that toy. You can move the toy faster with a flirt pole and further, driving the dog to go for the prey object. The chase/game is the fun part for a dog with natural prey drive. The flirt pole works as a lever to allow you to move something faster and further with smaller quicker movements of your own hand. It’s basically just a tool to activate a dog’s natural prey drive or to bring more out if the dog doesn’t have that much to begin with. A lot of times, this helps with dogs that have been taught to not take anything from human hands, as due to that training they will not take anything from a hand, but a flirt pole is impersonal enough to where the dog is allowed to grab the tug from the end of it even though the human is still controlling it and is then able to tug.
> 
> In regards to “the next step” after the dog has the toy, I personally don’t out. I want the dog to know it was successful, it beat me, and that it gets to keep its reward. So I always let the dog hold the reward for some time…but then either I force the toy out of the dogs mouth by picking the dog up by the collar, or I wait for the dog to just drop the toy and quickly remove it from the dog’s reach and the obedience begins again where the dog has to perform something I want in order to get the toy back. Some dogs are possessive and like just having the tug toy, other dogs like the fighting/tugging action and will drop the toy once the play stops anyways. It really depends on the dog. But the goal is to remove the tug from the dog’s reach as quickly as possible once you see the dog has lost interest and the “reward” is wearing off. Make the attraction to the toy again, ask for an exercise, reward with the toy. Later on…you stretch the expected exercise, or you bridge the exercises together with bridge words. Dog doesn’t always get the reward, but dog keeps the drive for the reward.


I guess that would make sense for certain dogs if you were trying to build drive and what your training goals are but at some point an out is going to have to be taught. I have a very high drive male and they quickly learn that even with an out, the game is not over it's just time to "work" again. It's also important to reward the out so the dog is not always just losing his toy.

eta: we have issues with "out" that's why I asked.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

gaia_bear said:


> I guess that would make sense for certain dogs if you were trying to build drive and what your training goals are but at some point an out is going to have to be taught. I have a very high drive male and they quickly learn that even with an out, the game is not over it's just time to "work" again. It's also important to reward the out so the dog is not always just losing his toy.


OP is just beginning this. My responses were based for someone just starting out. Not an advanced dog that can then be taught more advanced commands. Even with "very high drive" dogs, I don't particularly like to out them. They know what an out is, but an out still kills drive. No need for that during training.

If you have issues with out...it means your dog doesn't 100% understand that the game will still continue after he outs. I would go back to the method kaimeju briefly explained on how to teach an out.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Sorry to take away OP but you are 110% correct, outs in OB no issue. Protection is a whole different ballgame but we're getting there. I've tried waiting out by holding the collar but it increased the fight, as he matures he's getting more balanced and understanding the game so it's getting easier and his outs are getting quicker.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah, the reason I interjected into the thread was that I felt like the advice given on the first page wasn't very helpful. It's really not the way a flirt pole should be used for training. A dog should be allowed to play with a toy when the toy is presented. Not made to control itself. If you teach a dog to control itself, and that the only time it can have a toy is when you say so, all that leads to is the destruction of drive and the loss of that toy becoming a reward.

If you have to command your dog to take the toy in its mouth and tug...it is no longer a positive experience for the dog. The dog is doing it because the handler wants it to do it, not because that's what the dog wants. Remember, training is give and take. Dog does what handler wants, dog gets what dog wants. If the tugging becomes what the handler wants, what is it that the dog is getting in return?


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

martemchik said:


> If you have to command your dog to take the toy in its mouth and tug...it is no longer a positive experience for the dog. The dog is doing it because the handler wants it to do it, not because that's what the dog wants. *Remember, training is give and take*. Dog does what handler wants, dog gets what dog wants. If the tugging becomes what the handler wants, what is it that the dog is getting in return?


This is so important, tugging should be reward/release for the dog not a job.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

Kaimeju said:


> This is a good example of how to use food and tug with your dog, IMO, notice the commands have already been taught:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiTMEA4vZ3s
> 
> .


I totally didn't understand this video. Was that playing or working? I have no idea.

Thanks for the advice on getting back the toy. I've done that scenario here and there, but I guess not enough because he never offers to bring back his toy so I can throw it again. Guess I'll add that to my "to do" list.


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## spacenuts (May 30, 2013)

martemchik said:


> If you teach a dog to control itself, and that the only time it can have a toy is when you say so, all that leads to is the destruction of drive and the loss of that toy becoming a reward.
> 
> If you have to command your dog to take the toy in its mouth and tug...it is no longer a positive experience for the dog. The dog is doing it because the handler wants it to do it, not because that's what the dog wants. Remember, training is give and take. Dog does what handler wants, dog gets what dog wants. If the tugging becomes what the handler wants, what is it that the dog is getting in return?


But I thought Nothing In Life Is Free? I was taught a dog gets NOTHING unless he does something for it (ie. sit). 

When I get out the tug toy, he'll come jumping up on me, biting to get the toy (sometimes near my hand or sometimes nipping at my hand) - are you saying I should just give him the toy to play even though his preceding behaviour is completely unacceptable?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think people are coming at this from different perspectives with totally different goals in mind.Developing drive (working dog)vs impulse control(companion dog)
When we train with the flirt my dogs do something for me and then get an "ok!!" so they can chase and play.It's not a command,it's a release.They never lose enthusiasm.
Just different techniques to achieve different goals.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Whoa, so i've been destroying his drive when I've been practicing impulse control?  He just always seems more amped up after having to wait for the release a couple times, he almost starts to vibrate on the spot, I didn't occur to me that I was ruining it for him :\

Can this be likened to using a toy/tug as a reward for training? Because I'm keeping him from playing with the toy even thought its (kinda) being presented to him?

I hope this is useful to the OP as well.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

aceKeturah said:


> Whoa, so i've been destroying his drive when I've been practicing impulse control?  He just always seems more amped up after having to wait for the release a couple times, he almost starts to vibrate on the spot, I didn't occur to me that I was ruining it for him :\
> 
> Can this be likened to using a toy/tug as a reward for training? Because I'm keeping him from playing with the toy even thought its (kinda) being presented to him?
> 
> I hope this is useful to the OP as well.


Are you talking about the flirt pole or tug? With the flirt pole I can tell you that when I tell my dog to wait and then say get it, it has NOT destroyed her drive at all. She is almost 4 and we have been using the flirt pole since she was about 7-8 months. She catches it about 5 times or so, I tell her to drop it, she goes and we start again. After the 5th time I let her take the flirt pole once she gets it and tell her she won. She prances away with it and after a few minutes she either drops it by my feet or I tell her to bring it to me. She gets the reward at the end not every time.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Are you talking about the flirt pole or tug? With the flirt pole I can tell you that when I tell my dog to wait and then say get it, it has NOT destroyed her drive at all. She is almost 4 and we have been using the flirt pole since she was about 7-8 months. She catches it about 5 times or so, I tell her to drop it, she goes and we start again. After the 5th time I let her take the flirt pole once she gets it and tell her she won. She prances away with it and after a few minutes she either drops it by my feet or I tell her to bring it to me. She gets the reward at the end not every time.


Yes, with the flirt pole. Mine also prances with it! So I let him carry it around, death shake it, and the game starts again when he lets it go for a second and I manage to whip it away, or when I tell him to release. I hope I'm not damaging his enthusiasm/drive, thanks for your insight.


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