# Alternative to the Prong Collar



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Though the prong collar seems to be the go to tool for many members of this forum, it is not the only choice. Considering also that there are members from areas where the prong collar is banned or who are strongly opposed to using it, I thought I would start a thread to discuss other options that have also worked for them. I'll start out with 2 choices. 

The first is the front ring harness. My Sting was a big gsd 126 lbs. 30" tall who outweighed me . He was a lunger and for such a big gsd was very quick. He would be walking nicely until he heard or saw something to chase - one big lunge and the leash was pulled from my hands. What worked with Sting was a front ring harness. I used the Walk in Sync harness.
The Whole Dog Journal article gives an explanation and review of front ring harnesses:
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...7_21622-1.html

The second is the head halter. My Baron at only 53 lbs. could out pull a husky. He pulled his way through a martingale collar, then a choke chain , and a front ring harness. But he could not pull his way through the Perfect Pace Head Halter. The Perfect Pace attaches from the back of the neck. It was orginally called the Infinity Lead. This article is a review:
https://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/12/03/a-head-harness-you-wont-hate/
And this is the Perfect Pace website:
About the Perfect Pace Products

These article give an explanation of head halters:
How to Use a Head Halter on Your Dog : The Humane Society of the United States
https://bestfriends.org/resources/dog-head-halters


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Alternate for what piece of the training? Loose leash walking?



First, studies are now showing the harnesses and head halters are harming the dog because they can't move naturally. So are those a good choice? I would read the studies first.



The best choice for a harness is a Y harness that allows the dogs front to move naturally. But even so, harnesses were designed for dogs to pull in to so that could be problematic.



You can teach your dog to not pull by teaching the dog position you want and teach them to release to the pressure of the leash. That takes a flat collar, a clicker and a pocket full of treats. If mine starts pulling, I just start swinging my arm. Not as a correction but as this annoying thing that makes him look at me like "What the WHAT, LADY?!" And he releases to the pressure. It's that simple.



Teach them to interact with you and not the universe with engagement games. Teach them Leave It for things that make them want to chase.


All tools will fall short if the position, interaction and control aren't there.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Sensation and Easy Walk harnesses did not limit Beau’s pulling once he was ~10 months old. He just figured out some weird lunges to pull anyway, pulling me over or pulling the leash out of my hands. So I am not likely to try another harness to work on pulling. 

I haven’t tried a head halter.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

We had luck with a martingale collar, though my gal is only 50lbs lol.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Tried a front ring harness and had no luck. The harness simply slipped around. It was too sloppy for good clear communication. I let my dogs pull when they have a harness on. If I must stop them while they are in a harness all I can do is give them a check, and maybe move them sideways. I can't give them good directional information. 

With a head harness it is still uses aversion. If you don't go the way the handler wants, it hurts your dog's head and snout. It just doesn't look as bad as a prong collar. If I lived where I could not use a prong collar on my big-boy I'd have to spend a great deal of time going nowhere until he got it 100 percent in his head that moving forward means zero pulling.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Gentle leader or front clip harness can be a god send for certain dogs!!! My first dog really benefited from the gentle leader, and he enjoyed it. As soon as you picked it up he would quickly shove his nose in the hole lol. For Gandalf I really like our flat leather collar, or a martingale. I've used a prong on him as well in the past but I've noticed he does perfect on the flat collar. Don't think I'll be using a prong anymore with him, there's no point! He never pulls me anymore ?. Do I dare say hes maturing? I'll bring the prong if we are running through the city however just for safety until he's a little bit older.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

In our Walk and Heel positions, Beau walks pretty well now (no pulling 90% of the time, even with distractions) on martingale or prong. He will arrest his hunting/chasing/stalking moves in response to a firm Leave It, verbal only usually enough for that. It is any length on the leash for Sniff, his free word, and other dogs (mostly challenging him) that can cause pulling or lunging. Not all the time, but it still happens. If I see the other dog first, a loud No, Leave It and a minor leash pop works to forestall that lunging/barking. It usually stops the other dog, too, so maybe that’s why it works. If I don’t see the other dog first, Leave It and a leash pop will work well enough on the prong even once Beau is reacting, but not so well on the martingale. 

Thanks, Jax08, I’ll work more often on engagement during Walk and Heel, that will help with the last 10% there I’m sure. He never stops looking at me when I carry a ball or tug as we walk. He doesn’t find treats as interesting as the environment, though, even before breakfast.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Beau's Mom said:


> Thanks, Jax08, I’ll work more often on engagement during Walk and Heel, that will help with the last 10% there I’m sure. He never stops looking at me when I carry a ball or tug as we walk. He doesn’t find treats as interesting as the environment, though, even before breakfast.



Put the ball in your pocket. Pull it out and play with him periodically when he's in the position you want him to be in. If he pulls, get him back in position, take a few steps with him being correct and reward him with the ball.


If we are just out walking, I want my dog to enjoy the environment. He can sniff and look. He just can't take me down doing it. 






*Just a general observation*: Everyone seems to be focused on the correction tool and nobody is focused on teaching the action and the reward. 100% of my training in IPO is teaching, shaping, luring and rewarding. Once the dog knows the command, only then does a correction come in. Only then is a correction fair to the dog. So why do people training a pet START with the correction?????? 



A front clip harness is still a correction. If they pull, they get pulled to the side. A head halter is a correction. If they pull, their head gets pulled down into an uncomfortable position. A slip/choke collar? Well self explanatory. A prong? An e-collar? 



WHY doesn't anyone start with training the behavior they want???


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I agree that you have to teach the behavior first. The problem comes with impulsive dogs who haven't learned self control. I can be engaging but I will never be as interesting as the dumb bunny that sits in the middle of the street. Also, sometimes during the learning phase I just need to get somewhere. I don't have all the patience or time in the world. I have an indoor work space and my dogs would pull me through the yard to get to it. It could have taken me too much time and too much frustration on everyone's part to constantly stop, start and circle around just getting to the door. So I used compulsion to get to the door. Once inside they did their work beautifully! It took awhile for them to understand that the same behavior that paid off in our indoor work space was the same behavior I expected getting to the work space. In the yard I can now do things completely off leash that I will not / should not do out on the street. That is where the choice of collars, harness, etc comes into the story.


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

It has been shown that front clip harness can change the way the bone grows on the shoulder, literally put a dent in it when you use it long term (have seen it myself) and on growing dogs, most people get them and don't even use them to train, just as a band aid and long term solution to just throw it on the dog to stop pulling. 

many of the head collars all claim to put pressure just on the back of the neck or just on the nose. there was a study done that put pressure sensors on many parts of the dog, (back of neck/head, down the spine and on the nose I believe) and use the head harness/halti and it was shown that the pressure goes through the nose, neck, and down the spine which used long term (which many pet owners do, like the front clip just use it to bandaid the problem and use long term) which can contribute to issues later in life. 

These can for sure be good training options for many people, when used as short term training tools, unfortunately the majority of people using them just throw them on the dog, (usually fitted wrong which just makes everything worse) prongs can, and are, used incorrectly as well but so many people dont understand how the other "nicer" pulling alternatives can also be used incorrectly and cause long term harm 

also these are really alternatives of prong collar use for pulling, what about the other uses of prongs? 

The best way to stop pulling, which is what those are mainly for, is position training, train the dog where you want it to be, no amount of prong, front clip, halti or treats as band aid fixes will compare to the proper training 
Dogs are all individuals and I don't think anyone should rule out any type of tool to be able to find the best one each individual dog connects with the best. as long as it is a short term training tool, fitted correctly, used correctly etc..


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

I agree with Jax08, car2ner, and Suzy25. And probably others, too, just can’t remember who. In Beau’s case, our case, he was trained as a puppy in loose-leash walking, using shaping and rewards, begun by his breeder on a harness and continued by me. The cue was Walk, which then meant walk however you like as long as the leash is loose. He did fine until maybe 10 months, when he figured out he was stronger than I was. Then, nothing I tried worked to rein him in off the property, including those no-pull harnesses, from the minute we left the house. 

I finally went to several different trainers for help with the pulling, and they all recommended the prong as the solution. One trainer showed me how to fit the collar properly and make corrections with it safely. None of them told me it was a temporary training tool for correction only while training the desired behavior. The message I got was that the collar was my solution, problem solved, and more than one trainer used it to teach him a new behavior, not just to correct impulsive or willful misbehavior. No sense that the collar was a short-term fix, that the goal was training a dog so well that we wouldn’t need a prong. So that’s how I got there. I can’t speak for them. 

This forum has really helped me think about training in a different way again. I think we should be able to wean off the prong eventually, as I learn how to work with him more effectively in other ways. Very happy to think so.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

For areas where the prong is banned: what is the legal definition of a "prong"? If it is the prong as we all know this collar, there maybe legal loopholes, like the Good Dog Collar or the Keeper Collar. What are the ramifications if they catch you using a prong? Can someone copy the legal ordinance of this?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I used a harness and it created a terrible pulling problem when others walked the dog. We ended up using a prong as a result. Looking back I wish I had never used a harness. I hate head collars. My older dog wrenched her neck fighting one, after I had trained her to use it with help. They are much more dangerous than a prong. My take on dogs is if you want loose leashed walking, teach them off leash as puppies and never ever let them pull on a leash when they finally use one. Don’t allow them to react to other dogs. If your dog is well trained before a problem happens, you won’t need a training collar at all.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

Beau's Mom said:


> I agree with Jax08, car2ner, and Suzy25. And probably others, too, just can’t remember who. In Beau’s case, our case, he was trained as a puppy in loose-leash walking, using shaping and rewards, begun by his breeder on a harness and continued by me. The cue was Walk, which then meant walk however you like as long as the leash is loose. He did fine until maybe 10 months, when he figured out he was stronger than I was. Then, nothing I tried worked to rein him in off the property, including those no-pull harnesses, from the minute we left the house.
> 
> I finally went to several different trainers for help with the pulling, and they all recommended the prong as the solution. One trainer showed me how to fit the collar properly and make corrections with it safely. None of them told me it was a temporary training tool for correction only while training the desired behavior. The message I got was that the collar was my solution, problem solved, and more than one trainer used it to teach him a new behavior, not just to correct impulsive or willful misbehavior. No sense that the collar was a short-term fix, that the goal was training a dog so well that we wouldn’t need a prong. So that’s how I got there. I can’t speak for them.
> 
> This forum has really helped me think about training in a different way again. I think we should be able to wean off the prong eventually, as I learn how to work with him more effectively in other ways. Very happy to think so.



Our trainer uses the prong on our dog no more than 20 min per week, and we have three or for classes of more than 1 hour each. He insists our dog should not use the prong more, or we will get the bad idea of putting all of our trust in a collar instead of us (my sister and I, both under 53 kg). I think our trainer has some old fashioned ideas that I would not share, but regarding the prong use, I think it is better advise than the one you got. Yet, when my sister and I try to walk our puppy in a park or something, I believe it would be better to use something that is not his regular collar, I think it might harm him, because of the pulling. 



We have discussed about getting a prong, we ordered a martingale but has been lost in the mail for a while, might order another from a different place.... Is there any suggestion?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> I used a harness and it created a terrible pulling problem when others walked the dog. We ended up using a prong as a result. Looking back I wish I had never used a harness. I hate head collars. My older dog wrenched her neck fighting one, after I had trained her to use it with help. They are much more dangerous than a prong. My take on dogs is if you want loose leashed walking, teach them off leash as puppies and never ever let them pull on a leash when they finally use one. Don’t allow them to react to other dogs. If your dog is well trained before a problem happens, you won’t need a training collar at all.


Interesting take. I was forced to put Gandalf on a leash right away when he was a puppy since we lived in a tiny apartment at the time until he was about 8 months old or so, and we had no yard. We were working mostly with a positive only trainer who required us to only use a harness or gentle leader. Gandalf wasn't a fan of the head collar so we used the harness.. I didn't do anything really special in terms of teaching him to heel besides the turn around technique. He NEVER pulls, and he is 18 months old now. I'm lazy so I usually walk him with my pinky finger. Wish there weren't stupid leash laws around here or I would just take it off. The prong had its place and time, he had a short butt head phase where he ignored my commands and was a jerk on the leash but that lasted only a couple weeks. I can't really attribute the correction in behavior to the prong, I feel like he more or less just grew up. Think he would have turned out the same no matter what tool I used. Pretty much all of the issues he had he matured and grew out of them. We have always practiced NILIF. My first shepherd who we trained with the head collar graduated from it after being a puppy and was also very easy to walk on the leash afterwards. He never "fought" the gentle leader or had neck trouble, he just walked like a normal dog lol. 

My working line was a different story... We started with a prong and he died with a prong. He pulled on that prong no matter what. I gave hard corrections, never nagging as that's what my trainers told me to do. Guess it was his working line mentality but most the time he "pushed through it" . I regret putting him on a prong, it was the wrong tool for a dog with a high pain tolerance, I caused him unnecessary grief. What I needed was more consistency, people walked him who were not consistent so he learned to get away with things. It was confusing for him.

Training triumphs all tools.
Maybe one day prong collars will be outdated like chokes once we have learned better ways to communicate with our dogs?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You should be able to find a Martingale in a pet store. I got one when I fostered a short haired breed and took it back. It did nothing for dogs that chased wheels.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> You should be able to find a Martingale in a pet store. I got one when I fostered a short haired breed and took it back. It did nothing for dogs that chased wheels.


Why do you need a tool to stop chasing wheels? That sounds like a training problem. Gandalf tried chasing cars when he was little like 14 wks old, we taught a leave it command and practiced a lot of "its your choice" in general to help with his impulse control. These sample skills came in handy when squirrels would dart in front of us or bunnies. As he complied we rewarded with a tasty treat and he no longer even looks at cars. Really simple quick and easy fix... and best of all it was pain free for both of us!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Why do you need a tool to stop chasing wheels? That sounds like a training problem. Gandalf tried chasing cars when he was little like 14 wks old, we taught a leave it command and practiced a lot of "its your choice" in general to help with his impulse control. These sample skills came in handy when squirrels would dart in front of us or bunnies. As he complied we rewarded with a tasty treat and he no longer even looks at cars. Really simple quick and easy fix... and best of all it was pain free for both of us!


The dog was not a GSD. It was a very difficult breed to train. I’d prefer not to mention the breed on the forum, but the dog was extremely strong an not responsive to any typical methods.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Why do you need a tool to stop chasing wheels? That sounds like a training problem. Gandalf tried chasing cars when he was little like 14 wks old, we taught a leave it command and practiced a lot of "its your choice" in general to help with his impulse control. These sample skills came in handy when squirrels would dart in front of us or bunnies. As he complied we rewarded with a tasty treat and he no longer even looks at cars. Really simple quick and easy fix... and best of all it was pain free for both of us!


Everything you put on a dog is a tool, even a flat collar. Every dog is different. Just because it was easy with Gandolf, it doesn't mean this goes for every dog.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

absolutely. I never needed or even thought about a Prong collar until my big boy reached 6 months old and could already assert his will by yanking my arm. I have to admit, though, that it can give a false sense of security. My boy can pull through the discomfort if he feels he must. Personally I wish we could walk leash-less but that simply isn't safe around here. I'm glad he has a big yard to play naked in. 

That head harness mentioned in the OP is not a new idea. People have used that idea with regular leashes in emergency situations. I still prefer not to put discomfort on the snout. I really wouldn't want to be led around by the face. Also, what if the dog ever needed muzzle training? Would the discomfort of learning to walk on a head halter make that difficult? Also, my dogs wear goggles when we are out on our bass boat. Can't do that with a head halter. I've seen happy dogs with head halters on them, but honestly, they still work the old fashioned way. If you don't stay where I want you to stay you won't like it. Stay near me and the nasty pressure is released. Negative Punishment quadrant. Same with the no-pull harness. I'm glad the product is out there. Some dogs may have neck issues and nudging the body around or putting pressure under the front legs has to be the alternative. I just feel is give lousy communication to the dog other than, stay close.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

The head halter was the most adverse tool we tried with our girl. Some dogs will react very strongly to having anything placed over their muzzle. The dogs perception to tools and training needs to be considered when deciding what is fair.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Katsu is 10.5 months now and hasn't really needed a prong collar. Our puppy class had us using a front ring harness, but I wasn't a fan so about 80% of the time we just came in on a flat collar anyways. 


She has issues with pulling when she's excited - say we're going to the beach or walking with friends. I've used the prong collar once when we were walking to the beach and haven't gone since, so I wonder if she'll remember the corrections. 


She has a high prey drive too, but if I see the rabbit before her and can tell her to leave it, she won't lunge. Otherwise, I just hang on while the rabbit darts off and she lunges once.


We've done everything outside of that walk to the beach with luring and shaping on a flat collar. Katsu definitely walks better than my Shiba (but he's a Shiba and they're stubborn lol) who was trained with a prong from 6 months on. 


I have been toying with the idea of using a prong collar for our Rally I class...but my trainer (who does IPO and high end competition Rally) has a specific way of going about it. I've only ever used it for loose leash walking, so I'm willing to wait to find out how she trains with a prong (more tools in the kit for training, right?) So far we've done a 2 week acclimation (dog wears prong collar but leash isn't attached to it)


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Well, you could also go a very extreme route. (I mean this reply half-jokingly.) You could train your dog to pull YOU in a cart everywhere. Dog wants to pull me around? Okay, cool. You get to haul me in a cart.

I've not done this, of course. But part of me really, really wants to for my amusement and the dog's exercise. Would be great for building solid muscles and the reaction from passers-by would be downright hilarious.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Kyrielle said:


> Well, you could also go a very extreme route. (I mean this reply half-jokingly.) You could train your dog to pull YOU in a cart everywhere. Dog wants to pull me around? Okay, cool. You get to haul me in a cart.
> 
> I've not done this, of course. But part of me really, really wants to for my amusement and the dog's exercise. Would be great for building solid muscles and the reaction from passers-by would be downright hilarious.



LOL! 


As a teenager, I used to let my mom's Chow mix pull me around the neighborhood on my skateboard every morning. She loved it, but we stopped because she decided to run towards a man walking his dog and I fell off the skateboard trying to stop her and got skinned up pretty bad.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I tried a halter with my dog aggressive rescue. It lasted about 2 minutes, then she somehow got it in her mouth, and chewed it to pieces!

I am a great believer in using a prong to stop pulling. But it is a stop gap TOOL until the dog learns the correct behaviour (loose leash walking)

I didn't really need one until I adopted a 3 year old 85 lb. male who had never been taught to walk on a leash. By the time I'd been walking him on it for 3 days (long weekend) he was getting the idea, and within a couple of months, I was able to switch to a flat collar. The only time I ever needed the prong again was when he got the idea he could start to pull again... A brief refresher course was all it took! I only had to put the prong on his neck - didn't even need to correct him with it - and suddenly he would remember his manners!

Training, training, it's ALL about training! Your dog pulls because you ALLOW him to pull! Teach him not to - the collar you use is only a tool!

I hate harnesses because you have ZERO control of the part of the dog that bites. When I had the kennel, some of the dogs that wore harnesses would jump and spin as I was trying to walk them. They may work for some dogs (small dogs) but I do not like them for German shepherds or large, strong breeds!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Everything you put on a dog is a tool, even a flat collar. Every dog is different. Just because it was easy with Gandolf, it doesn't mean this goes for every dog.


I've used this technique for MANY dogs, not just Gandalf. I was just using him as an example. Luvshepherds comment caught my by surprise though, I have not tried it with a less intelligent breed. I could see that being an issue and may need another resource.. however all of the shepherds I have trained have caught on very quickly! 

The thing with a head halter is you need to introduce it in a positive way, most people just slap it on the dog without any introduction and go OMG my dog hates it and the dog freaks out. I've seen the same thing with a prong, the dog feels the sharp metal stabbing into its neck and it starts yelping, fighting it, and withering in pain, meanwhile the trainer stands by and says Let him fight it, he'll get over it?!?!? No matter what your tool is you need to introduce it properly. A stray dog that has never seen a leash and flat collar may freak out as well if you slip something around its neck. Perception is powerful. 
I feel all tools have their use depending on the situation, prongs, harnesses, e collars, no collars, haltis , what you use depends on your and your dogs need.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Kyrielle said:


> Well, you could also go a very extreme route. (I mean this reply half-jokingly.) You could train your dog to pull YOU in a cart everywhere. Dog wants to pull me around? Okay, cool. You get to haul me in a cart.
> 
> I've not done this, of course. But part of me really, really wants to for my amusement and the dog's exercise. Would be great for building solid muscles and the reaction from passers-by would be downright hilarious.


Harder to teach than you think! Especially when you've trained hard to teach the dog NOT to pull the leash LOL 



:grin2:

I've taught the command "chase" for fast cyclists whizzing by for motivation, but also had to teach him impulse control because I'm not always on roller blades.. .we run this same trail almost every day and I don't want him yanking my arm out when a biker rolls by. It took a lot of work but he knows no matter if I am running or skating to not chase unless given the command. Also applies to wild life, his default is not to chase but if we are on the beach and I give him the OK to chase a bird he flies. IT amazes me how intelligent the GSD breed is, he has never screwed up! Notice in the videos how he keeps looking back, even though his mind is set to chase prey and he is in "drive" he still is very attentive and keeping an ear out for the next command! On this very narrow trail we pass lots of people walking dogs, kids in strollers, etc. an he knows to always stay on the correct side of the road and to be wary when passing. I keep the bell on his collar so people can hear us coming.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This thread is starting to sound familiar for some reason....


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Harder to teach than you think! Especially when you've trained hard to teach the dog NOT to pull the leash LOL


Love to watch Gandalf, you've done a really nice job with him. The breeder you got him from use to do carting with her dogs, always fun to see. Have you tried it?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Kyrielle said:


> Well, you could also go a very extreme route. (I mean this reply half-jokingly.) You could train your dog to pull YOU in a cart everywhere. Dog wants to pull me around? Okay, cool. You get to haul me in a cart.
> 
> I've not done this, of course. But part of me really, really wants to for my amusement and the dog's exercise. Would be great for building solid muscles and the reaction from passers-by would be downright hilarious.




https://www.facebook.com/groups/343016775847589/

yuppers


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It depends greatly on the dog! 

My biggest dog walks really nicely on one of those cheap-o plastic weaved slip leads you get at the vet. I put it high on his neck, Cesar Millan style, and use my loose leash "with me" command, and we can go anywhere. If I tried to use a prong, that would actually increase reactivity and fuel a forward-aggression response. It doesn't work well for him. 

I almost feel weird walking this massive, 95 lb shepherd on a tiny little leash, but it works for him and that's what matters. When my dogs are on leash, we are usually in a busy area, at the vet or training, or practicing commands "downtown". Otherwise, we are blessed to have off leash friendly areas to walk and run. 

People seem to forget that for some dogs, a prong collar really does increase aggression- it can stimulate drive, not take it away. And if you aren't phsyically strong enough to out-power a 95 dog whose neck is all muscle, a prong can be worse than even a flat collar- I had redirection problems when I tried it and he was just a big puppy- so I quickly moved on from prong to the "dominate dog" or slip lead method, and I did add some high level e-collar corrections as well for certain unacceptable behaviors, like trying to eat passing cars. 

A prong can work great for some dogs, but make sure you use the tool best suited for the dog in front of you. 

Oh, and I can't agree more that training a behavior positively, with engagement and so the dog understands what is wanted FIRST is critical!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Love to watch Gandalf, you've done a really nice job with him. The breeder you got him from use to do carting with her dogs, always fun to see. Have you tried it?


Thank you he has been a very easy dog to train this, maybe it's because of his background! :smile2:, She sure did, I would love to try it but the carts are out of our budget right now. I bet he would love it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Interesting take. I was forced to put Gandalf on a leash right away when he was a puppy since we lived in a tiny apartment at the time until he was about 8 months old or so, and we had no yard. We were working mostly with a positive only trainer who required us to only use a harness or gentle leader. Gandalf wasn't a fan of the head collar so we used the harness.. I didn't do anything really special in terms of teaching him to heel besides the turn around technique. He NEVER pulls, and he is 18 months old now. I'm lazy so I usually walk him with my pinky finger. Wish there weren't stupid leash laws around here or I would just take it off. The prong had its place and time, he had a short butt head phase where he ignored my commands and was a jerk on the leash but that lasted only a couple weeks. I can't really attribute the correction in behavior to the prong, I feel like he more or less just grew up. Think he would have turned out the same no matter what tool I used. Pretty much all of the issues he had he matured and grew out of them. We have always practiced NILIF. My first shepherd who we trained with the head collar graduated from it after being a puppy and was also very easy to walk on the leash afterwards. He never "fought" the gentle leader or had neck trouble, he just walked like a normal dog lol.
> 
> My working line was a different story... We started with a prong and he died with a prong. He pulled on that prong no matter what. I gave hard corrections, never nagging as that's what my trainers told me to do. Guess it was his working line mentality but most the time he "pushed through it" . I regret putting him on a prong, it was the wrong tool for a dog with a high pain tolerance, I caused him unnecessary grief. What I needed was more consistency, people walked him who were not consistent so he learned to get away with things. It was confusing for him.
> 
> ...


Not trying to be contentious, but with your WL maybe it wasn’t the prong but your application( the way you handle ) of the prong. 
Most of my students use the pinch ( 95% of them come to first class already using the pinch), and probably 90% of them use the pinch ineffectively when they start my classes. Why? Because they use the pinch to pull or yank instead of light pops. You should almost never be pulling or yanking your dog in training or corrections. Yet, I see experienced as well as most novice people do it all the time. Small pops on the leash with reassertion of command is far more effective than pulling or yanking a dog to get them to stop. 
I constantly tell people to stop yanking on leash or pulling the dog through the leash and they go right back to it because it is a hard to break habit. For higher drive dogs it actually becomes a test of wills and very little progress is made. But it’s not the pinch collar , it’s the application, because I will take that same dog on the same pinch, and with small pops and changes of direction when walking, will have that dog walking besides me in short time. AND I usually have the leash held in only two fingers, showing that the pops that I giveare not strong.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As for the OP, I often use flat collar or fur saver to walk the dog and fur saver to train with, but again it’s not about the tool it’s more about correct usage.....for some folks who just can’t apply good handling, then specific tools can be effective for just walking their dog, but for training, it’s not the tool as much as the proper use of the tool.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Harder to teach than you think! Especially when you've trained hard to teach the dog NOT to pull the leash LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvpT8huOdf0
> :grin2:
> 
> I've taught the command "chase" for fast cyclists whizzing by for motivation, but also had to teach him impulse control because I'm not always on roller blades.. .we run this same trail almost every day and I don't want him yanking my arm out when a biker rolls by. It took a lot of work but he knows no matter if I am running or skating to not chase unless given the command. Also applies to wild life, his default is not to chase but if we are on the beach and I give him the OK to chase a bird he flies. IT amazes me how intelligent the GSD breed is, he has never screwed up! Notice in the videos how he keeps looking back, even though his mind is set to chase prey and he is in "drive" he still is very attentive and keeping an ear out for the next command! On this very narrow trail we pass lots of people walking dogs, kids in strollers, etc. an he knows to always stay on the correct side of the road and to be wary when passing. I keep the bell on his collar so people can hear us coming.
> ...


Awesome. I think to do it right you'd need a harness with attachments on either side of the dog to keep the connection stable.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

@cliffson1 I was taught how to properly use a prong by the man who trains Orlandos police dogs. Like I said, I had other family members who didn't know how to use it that walked him regularly. It was the inconsistency which led to his pulling. I regret using such a harsh tool on a dog in a confusing matter, it just made things worse for him.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

@Kyrielle
That's a proper pulling harness, it has one connection. It's actually a bike joring harness but it serves its purpose just as well rollerblading. You can get them at the howlingdogalaska website.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> @cliffson1 I was taught how to properly use a prong by the man who trains Orlandos police dogs. Like I said, I had other family members who didn't know how to use it that walked him regularly. It was the inconsistency which led to his pulling. I regret using such a harsh tool on a dog in a confusing matter, it just made things worse for him.


dang, that explains it all. A hammer can be used skillfully or stupidly (not calling your family stupid, though). I can understand how ever changing rules can lead to a dog wanting to just do whatever he wants, since nothing else makes sense.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

@car2ner yes it was extremely unfair to my dog. My family was NOT capable in any way of using the prong correctly, I felt like I should have just used a gentle leader with him from the get go because at least it would have been easier for the family. They were all over the place with how they corrected. People seem to find harnesses and gentle leaders more intuitive if they've never had a dog because you don't have to worry about HOW you are correcting and WHEN and dealing with actually training the dog. You just put it on and go, no pulling involved and don't ever leave the house without it. I should have let them walk him with a gentle leader only and I should have used the prong to work with him during my time on actual training the heel.

Kinda makes you think all the newbies who come on here and we recommend they slap a prong on that puppy, maybe it isn't the best idea.


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> @*car2ner* yes it was extremely unfair to my dog. My family was NOT capable in any way of using the prong correctly, I felt like I should have just used a gentle leader with him from the get go because at least it would have been easier for the family. They were all over the place with how they corrected. People seem to find harnesses and gentle leaders more intuitive if they've never had a dog because you don't have to worry about HOW you are correcting and WHEN and dealing with actually training the dog. You just put it on and go, no pulling involved and don't ever leave the house without it. I should have let them walk him with a gentle leader only and I should have used the prong to work with him during my time on actual training the heel.
> 
> Kinda makes you think all the newbies who come on here and we recommend they slap a prong on that puppy, maybe it isn't the best idea.



My puppy pulls out of lack of good social skills. We kind of overprotected him after parvo. So he sometimes reacts to some people and some dogs (mostly big males), trainer says it is because my sister and I get nervous. He is attending group classes (3 per week) and once a week, he uses the prong for no more than 20 min., and in those 20 min he walks awesome, more than awesome (and we get more confidence), though, this past week he started to walk almost perfect with his own regular collar aswell in the class (we are even trotting now and he does pretty good). But he is around 55-60lb and slightly less than 6 months, so, when he pulls me or my sister, he does pull us with strength, I ordered a leather and chain martingale (but has not arrived, hate mailing service in Mexico)... So I was going to go and buy a choke or a prong collar, to feel more comfortable and train a little in out outings... Based on your previous posts, I got doubts, should I go for any? or just get the martingales with chain and some cloth (petco thing)?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> Not trying to be contentious, but with your WL maybe it wasn’t the prong but your application( the way you handle ) of the prong.
> Most of my students use the pinch ( *95% of them come to first class already using the pinch*), and probably 90% of them use the pinch ineffectively when they start my classes. Why? Because they use the pinch to pull or yank instead of light pops. You should almost never be pulling or yanking your dog in training or corrections. Yet, I see experienced as well as most novice people do it all the time. Small pops on the leash with reassertion of command is far more effective than pulling or yanking a dog to get them to stop.
> I constantly tell people to stop yanking on leash or pulling the dog through the leash and they go right back to it because it is a hard to break habit. For higher drive dogs it actually becomes a test of wills and very little progress is made. But it’s not the pinch collar , it’s the application, because I will take that same dog on the same pinch, and with small pops and changes of direction when walking, will have that dog walking besides me in short time. AND I usually have the leash held in only two fingers, showing that the pops that I giveare not strong.


The bolded, why? Intelligent, biddable, and so many of them so very very soft... why do 95% come in with prongs? Where did they get the idea to put a prong on it before they even hit a training class?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> @cliffson1 I was taught how to properly use a prong by the man who trains Orlandos police dogs. Like I said, I had other family members who didn't know how to use it that walked him regularly. It was the inconsistency which led to his pulling.* I regret using such a harsh tool on a dog in a confusing matter, it just made things worse for him*.


Let me start by saying that this post is meant in general terms and I certainly do not intend to offend you, Gandalf or anyone else. However, this thread and your post bring up some things I feel the need to comment on. 

First, when used properly a prong is not a _harsh tool_. We need to clear up some misconceptions that continuously pop up on threads like these. @Cliffson made an excellent post about novices and the use of a prong collar verse and experienced handler using one. I've used a prong collar every day since the mid 90's. I use it as a finesse tool and used properly it is not used harshly. 

Secondly, if a member of your family can not handle a GSD properly, cannot walk the properly or is inconsistent with the dog, they should not be walking or handling that dog. If a family member is going to teach bad habits, or degrade existing training they should not be allowed to handle, train or take the dog out for walks. I would limit their interaction with the dog and have clearly defined rules for the benefit of the dog. I've trained my own dogs for IPO and Police work, no one gives my dog their commands but me. I have a few commands that family members may use, these are in English and different from my sport or training commands. If a family member was unable to handle one of my dogs, properly walk the dog or behave responsibly with my dogs then they do not give commands or take the dog out for walks. 

Inconsistency is the biggest problem with dogs in many pet households. It is a huge problem in training when only one member of the household is on board. 

The next thing that always comes out on these types of threads is how "crazy and high drive" the dog is, "how aggressive" the dog is, how "out of control" or dominate the dog is. In the vast majority of these cases it is simply an average dog that has no rules or boundaries and runs roughshot all over the household. It usually only takes about 5 minutes to get these dogs to behave properly. Give Cliff or me the dog and in a matter of minutes you will see a completely different dog. 

The other issue is that people are constantly posting about the pros and cons of prong collars, choke chains and E collars. What people really need to learn is the importance of praise and reward. How to properly praise and reward their dog for the correct behavior. Simply doing that eliminates 90% of undesirable behaviors. It is really so simple, this is not rocket science. Be fair, be firm and consistent. A dog that is constantly rewarded, by praise, a toy or a combination for a desirable behavior will repeat that behavior. Teach the dog what you want and expect, reward when correct and life is easy. It is really that simple. If you need to correct a dog for disobedience, do it and get it over with. This literally takes a second. Don't hold a grudge,give the dog a command it can follow and the instant it is correct, praise and reward lavishly. 

There is nothing wrong with the appropriate use of a prong collar. Head halters are not the answer and neither is a substitute for proper training and handling.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Let me start by saying that this post is meant in general terms and I certainly do not intend to offend you, Gandalf or anyone else. However, this thread and your post bring up some things I feel the need to comment on.
> 
> First, when used properly a prong is not a _harsh tool_. We need to clear up some misconceptions that continuously pop up on threads like these. @Cliffson made an excellent post about novices and the use of a prong collar verse and experienced handler using one. I've used a prong collar every day since the mid 90's. I use it as a finesse tool and used properly it is not used harshly.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post as usual! If 95% of the German Shepherd owners did this, there would be no prong collar debates.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

@Slamdunc it's a little difficult to tell your parents they should not be walking your dog. In my family children don't have an opinion and do not tell adults what they can or can't do. Maybe it's different In your home? "Secondly, if a member of your family can not handle a GSD properly, cannot walk the properly or is inconsistent with the dog, they should not be walking or handling that dog. "They believed in old techniques such as rubbing a puppy's face in his pee, chaining up and leaving outside, etc. I was not an independent at the time and was not my decision. I feel as if a prong can be humane if used properly, but many new dog owners have no clue how to use a prong. I went with my mom to meet with a k9 trainer with my old shepherd and we learned... but my dad was not on board. He strongly believed in alpha rolling and over powering the dog. Not my decision. He used the prong exactly how you shouldn't. 
And now years later on my own with my OWN dog, I train him the way he should be trained and do not let them interfere.
I don't believe there is anything at all wrong with head halters if someone wants to use one. I feel that's a lot more humane than someone yanking on a prong without a clue.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, why? Intelligent, biddable, and so many of them so very very soft... why do 95% come in with prongs? Where did they get the idea to put a prong on it before they even hit a training class?


Have you been to training classes that prepare for AKC obedience? Most of the AKC obedience people use pinch collars today. Many pinch collars are very small and not that big spike article that people envision. Also, many people have outside attachments to pinch that makes it difficult to see it’s a pinch when looking at the collar. 
Anyway, many many people use the pinch for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day the pinch is not the villain but the application. I actually think the most abused collar there is, is a choke chain( and Vets will tell you that also) but visual feelings can be a strong motivation for opinions, albeit sometimes misguided.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> Have you been to training classes that prepare for AKC obedience? Most of the AKC obedience people use pinch collars today. Many pinch collars are very small and not that big spike article that people envision. Also, many people have outside attachments to pinch that makes it difficult to see it’s a pinch when looking at the collar.
> Anyway, many many people use the pinch for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day the pinch is not the villain but the application. I actually think the most abused collar there is, is a choke chain( and Vets will tell you that also) but visual feelings can be a strong motivation for opinions, albeit sometimes misguided.


Yes, I have been to training classes that prepared for AKC obedience and I have titled my dogs in AKC obedience, but... that was back in the 70s. Nobody had a prong on any of the dogs although they all had choke chains. Training methods were based on Koehler.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> Have you been to training classes that prepare for AKC obedience? Most of the AKC obedience people use pinch collars today. Many pinch collars are very small and not that big spike article that people envision. Also, many people have outside attachments to pinch that makes it difficult to see it’s a pinch when looking at the collar.
> Anyway, many many people use the pinch for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day the pinch is not the villain but the application. I actually think the most abused collar there is, is a choke chain( and Vets will tell you that also) but visual feelings can be a strong motivation for opinions, albeit sometimes misguided.


For the Canine Good Citizen exam (CGC) you are not allowed to use a prong collar. I don't think you can use a head collar either but not sure about that one? Gandalf passed his on a flat collar when he was around a year old.I don't care for the choke collars at all, i've heard from vets that they can really damage a dogs throat. Same thing with a flat collar if a dog is pulling against it constantly.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Since I am old, most of my dogs were trained on a flat collar, or for the insistent ones a choke. 
While I am by nature opposed to Koehlers methods, he was a brilliant trainer and as with anything I take what I need. If one never uses his method he is worth studying for the theory alone, and for the fact that the whole premises is do it once, do it right. Incessant, improper corrections are cruel and useless. If you must correct your dog, make it count.
I had never used a prong until I met Shadow. In her case I had a very soft dog but one prone to fits of fear based aggression which overrode any common sense and training. She was hurting herself and me in panicked states.
Easywalk harness, she simply slipped her legs through it, it did little to control her and was ineffective even for teaching.
Halti, I used one on Sabs, not for control but as a cue that we were off duty, since I used a variety of collars for work dependant on what we were doing. For Shadow it was dangerous as she did cartwheels, the risk of injury to her neck was huge.
Choke chain, put her into a frenzied panic and she throttled herself fighting to escape it the one and only time I tried. All my previous dogs wore them with no problem, except that Sabs learned how to slip one.
The martingale is my go to collar and has been for years. 

Flat collars, Sabs, Lex and Shadow were/are all adept at slipping them. I have a beautiful collar that was handmade for Shadow by a friend. It was used once. 

I prefer to teach pups off leash using luring to attain position, however I live in a place with strict leash laws so it largely doesn't happen. 

I believe the take away is use what works for the dog in front of you. Keep in mind that no two humans will elicit the exact same response from any dog. Bud never pulled with me, but treated my husband who is bigger and stronger like dead weight.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, I have been to training classes that prepared for AKC obedience and I have titled my dogs in AKC obedience, but... that was back in the 70s. Nobody had a prong on any of the dogs although they all had choke chains. Training methods were based on Koehler.


That’s my point....you couldn’t find a pinch collar in AKC in seventies,( which was the Koehler method), BUT today as the training has evolved ( more humane and positive to many) you will see a lot of pinch collars in AKC training. 
Btw, I don’t know of any exams, ( even bitework like IPO) that allow pinch collars, but 95% of the most knowledgeable trainers and handlers I know use one&#55358;&#56631;*♀.....so I guess there is value in proper use.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Thank you to all who posted on this thread  Your continual posts kept it on the popular discussion list and increased visibility to over 1,000. All the discussion with the different points of view was very interesting to read.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Since this is getting that many views, I will just leave this here.

https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Since this is getting that many views, I will just leave this here.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


For a different perspective I'll leave this one :wink2:

https://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Dog-Training/dp/0876055773


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> For a different perspective I'll leave this one :wink2:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Dog-Training/dp/0876055773


Mine is not about perspective but a helpful book to teach dogs with kindness and respect to achieve results for basic obedience without the need for physical aversives. After all, that is what the topic of this thread is about. :wink2:


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

OH, in the perfect world I wouldn't even use a leash and collar. To be honest, those are basic aversion tools. Yes, you can communicate with a collar and leash, but the message is "you will be more comfortable if you follow my lead". 
The more we can teach by showing our dogs it is too their advantage to stick to our rules, the happier we all are. It is not a perfect world, though, and even dogs use aversion to get a point across quickly, especially if it is something that needs to stop and stop now.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I usually don't even use a leash or collar on my dogs until they are at least one and sometimes not till after two years. I am not so sure I would call them an aversive but if used improperly, I see your point. They also can be instrumental in teaching many bad behaviors.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I usually don't even use a leash or collar on my dogs until they are at least one and sometimes not till after two years. I am not so sure I would call them an aversive but if used improperly, I see your point. They also can be instrumental in teaching many bad behaviors.


I also teach everythig off leash. I hate leashes. But serious question... how do you handle the vet if your dogs are not introduced to leashes until they are one or two years old? Do you do any socialization at stores or around crowded places when you get a puppy? I’m not talking about letting people or dogs come up to your puppy, but are they given the opportunity to observe things like crowds? If so, are they just off leash?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I usually don't even use a leash or collar on my dogs until they are at least one and sometimes not till after two years. I am not so sure I would call them an aversive but if used improperly, I see your point. They also can be instrumental in teaching many bad behaviors.



I can see how they could teach bad habits and I would prefer pups not be leashed, but not all of us have that option. Any tips? It's illegal here to have a dog off your property not leashed. I did challenge it years ago by letting my dog carry his leash, and I won, but I believe it's been rewritten.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Sabis Mom, I love that challenge.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

If I have to take one of them to the vet, because of traffic, I will put a leash on them.. sometimes... depends on the dog. I use a slip lead because of having dogs of different sizes, one size fits all, it is what I keep in the car. Because I have not walked them on leashes, they have not learned bad behaviors. I have found that most dogs will walk within a few feet of me most of the time, without training, their choice, so to put a leash on them only adds the element of a slip lead but does not change the dynamics as they are not being reigned in or asked to behave differently.

I don't know what to attribute this to, but I see sooooo many people on here talking about their dogs going through a butt head, adolescent stage starting at about six months. Some of mine don't seem to go through this stage at all. Some do... but not starting till around 12-14 months so I can work longer without a leash, once again, depends on the dog.

Regarding socialization, as in close other human contact, I don't promote it with mine. I don't really stop it either if I sense that people are good intentioned. I live on a corner lot on the outskirts of the city, plenty of foot traffic, they get to observe a lot of people. I don't really take them in stores although some of the adults come in to Lowe's with me on occasion. 

I never encourage them to chase squirrels or other small animals. I don't encourage any behavior that might cause me problems down the road. I have had multiple loose dogs walking with me and have had chipmunks pop out and run across the trail in front of their noses only two or three feet in front of us. They perk up and look with a "Did you see that?" expression. That's it. They don't chase rabbits, deer, turkeys, or harass any other wildlife. I had two loose dogs down the river, one was my over the top prey drive dog. An injured goose shot out about fifteen feet in front of me when they were running around, but it did not make the river before the two dogs were there. It flopped down, with its neck outstretched and did not move. The one dog recalled, but the other could not stand it and had to sniff and explore it for a moment before recalling. They never touched or harmed the goose. 

They see a lot of people in parks and on trails. There is one river trail near me that has the river on one side, and a residential section that turns into a series of professional buildings which in turn turns into a string of restaurants with outdoor dining, about a mile long. It is also a part of the rails to trails bike trails. Lots of people and activity. Trains close by, overhead railways, boat docks, car shows, fishermen at the river, even goats hired to eat the shrubbery.. there is no shortage of opportunity for a large variety of exposure. Yes, it is an all "on leash" area but the end product is well worth it to me if I were to get a fine for them being loose. The last time I was stopped by the police it was because the officer wanted a picture of my dog to send to his mother. He did not say anything about putting the dog on a leash.

I don't know if it has anything to do with the way they are raised, I don't go out of my way to train it, but they seem to know open fields and woods are made to explore and run, rivers are made to swim in, and places such as strip malls and trails with lots of activity is their cue to walk a natural "here" without any prompting from me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I can see how they could teach bad habits and I would prefer pups not be leashed, but not all of us have that option. Any tips? It's illegal here to have a dog off your property not leashed. I did challenge it years ago by letting my dog carry his leash, and I won, but I believe it's been rewritten.


Leash laws were meant to benefit public safety but they backfired and created out of control dogs often with aggressive behaviors. The laws need to be revisited as dog bites are at a record high.

I choose to have well behaved dogs. If I have to pay a $300.00 fine for it at some point and time, then I will consider that a small price to pay for well behaved dogs. It is a lot cheaper than a lawsuit for an inappropriate dog bite suit as well as life sparing for the dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Leash laws were meant to benefit public safety but they backfired and created out of control dogs often with aggressive behaviors. The laws need to be revisited as dog bites are at a record high.
> 
> I choose to have well behaved dogs. If I have to pay a $300.00 fine for it at some point and time, then I will consider that a small price to pay for well behaved dogs. It is a lot cheaper than a lawsuit for an inappropriate dog bite suit as well as life sparing for the dog.



http://discoveryridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Dog-Bylaws.pdf
Fines noted are for first offence. Multiple or repeat offenses are mandatory court and could result in your dog being seized. Multiple dog attacks in 2015 prompted the city to crack down hard. No off leash here. 
Sounds like where you live they are pretty tolerant.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> http://discoveryridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Dog-Bylaws.pdf
> Fines noted are for first offence. Multiple or repeat offenses are mandatory court and could result in your dog being seized. Multiple dog attacks in 2015 prompted the city to crack down hard. No off leash here.
> Sounds like where you live they are pretty tolerant.


Lot of dog attacks here, no crackdowns.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Since this is getting that many views, I will just leave this here.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Positive-Training-Companion-Competition/dp/0966302001


This is my all time favorite dog training book. I have given several copies of this book away. Actually, I have loaned them to friends and never get them back. I just buy a new copy. 

This is a perfect post for this thread and I highly encourage anyone with a GSD or any dog for that matter to read this book. It is a classic and gives a really good foundation for praise and reward and motivational training. 

This book is a good guide for how I do my foundation training with puppies and even new Police dogs in our training. Any dog and handler will benefit from this book. I train everything to a high degree of reliability motivationally, then I correct for disobedience once the dog is trained to a high level. I love this book, it's methods and techniques......and I also use a prong collar. 

Understanding drive, praise, reward and how to motivate your dog is essential to a well trained dog in any endeavor. Compulsion is low on the scale of motivators and rarely used when a dog is properly trained. Putting a head halter on a dog is a band aid and doesn't fix anything or a proper way to train or walk a dog. I do not like choke chains and feel they are far more potentially damaging than a prong collar. 

I would strongly encourage anyone looking for advice or help with their dog to buy and read this book several times. Absorb what is in it, reevaluate your training and relationship with your dog and have some fun with your dog. Cherish those "high drive", "crazy out of control" dogs and learn how to easily work with them and modify their behavior. This book will absolutely help.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jim, I read the book because of your recommendation. It resonates with 90-95% of what I already do and offered a few gems and insights for areas where I could improve.

The book is also available as an e book. E books can be lent out but will always return. ?


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## Richd (Dec 13, 2013)

*My dog wears the prong but I very rarely use it.*

When we started training she pulled like crazy with the leather collar. I switched to the prong and she quickly stopped pulling. Right now she associates the prong with walks and when she sees it she comes to me to have it put on. Once on she knows it's there and I don't thing she has gotten a tug on it in months. I can take her off leash when she wearing it and she heals perfectly. Put the leather collar on and it's like the thinks she doesn't need to follow the rules as closely. I guess the point is, if she respects it and I never have to use it, I don't see the point in transitioning. Also for the first 2 years we had her we used an invisible fence system. When we moved she was still conditioned to never set foot into the street regardless of any temptation (birds, squirrels, other dogs or even me walking across the street.). The only time she will set foot in the street is when the pronged collar is on. I didn't really train her intentionally, but I don't want to loose that conditioning so I will continue to use the collar for walks.


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