# working lines vs show lines



## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

is there any difference in physical appearance between the two?? b4 i joined this site i didnt know that there was a difference. i just thought that a german shepherd was a german shepherd not a showline or a working line. and haveing that is there a physical difference between american breeds and german breeds czech etc etc or is it just where they come from??


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Read the The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd Dog by Linda Shaw.

Illustrated Standard Of The GSD


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

http://kerschberger.com/GermanShepherdTypes.htm


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There are very significant differences in appearance and personality between German show line, American show line and working line.

Yet another article on those differences:

Different Types of GSDs


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I was like you Steve, and suspect that the majority of people aren't aware of the differences between the types. I used to think that a German Shepherd was a German Shepherd, was a German Shepherd. They came in Black and Tan, short coat, long coat, and sometimes in black or in white. 

The first time I saw a sable and a bi-color working-line, I did not recognize them to be German Shepherds. Their structure and overall look seemed so different to me. 

This board has been a real education!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LOL - I can tell you that my blanket black female WGr Working lines female is "crossed with a doberman" and my male dark sable Czech dog "has wolf in him"


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Nancy JLOL - I can tell you that my blanket black female WGr Working lines female is "crossed with a doberman" and my male dark sable Czech dog "has wolf in him"


Hey, mine too! How weird is that!









And of course, our solid blacks are all Lab mixes......


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## Romance (Apr 16, 2007)

The guy who lives beside me has a wolf hybrid. That's what he calls it, but its a GSDx Timber wolf. Looks mostly like a wolf. he isn't shy or timid or agressive....dog thinks he is toy poodle sized and should be on your lap. The weird thing about him is he wont consider you a friend unless he can sniff the top of your head. once he does that he's fine....weird dog.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RomanceThe guy who lives beside me has a wolf hybrid. That's what he calls it, but its a GSDx Timber wolf. Looks mostly like a wolf. he isn't shy or timid or agressive....dog thinks he is toy poodle sized and should be on your lap. The weird thing about him is he wont consider you a friend unless he can sniff the top of your head. once he does that he's fine....weird dog.


No offence but what does that have to do with this thread?









You do realize that Nancy and Chris were being sarcastic and not literal.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Great Article Chris, when is the book coming out?

Just loved the part on American Backyard Bred


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

To expand on the wonderful information already posted, a working line is about as close as you'd get to the originally envisioned GSD. The American line is what you would normally see on the Eukanuba and the Westminster dog shows, but they are pretty far from the originally intended GSD. German showlines, well some are close and some are not.

American line German shepherds are judged against the AKC standard. All other lines are judged against the FCI standard which the SV (original breed club based out of Germany) uses. Unfortunately, tastes and big names have influenced how the standard is interpreted by a judge.

Someone on the GSD Pedigree database summed it up very well. To paraphrase: The showlines (American or German) hold physical appearance and movement above all else. Working quality is considered in the German lines to a higher degree than in the American lines. The working lines put ability above beauty and movement and feel that the ability to work and work well will grant the structure and movement to make that ability possible. Do note that this is a general rule- there are showline dogs that can work very well and there are working lines who do their best work while on the couch.

You will find strong biases with almost anyone who is "into" the breed. I am a working line person and that goes any dog. Be it GSD, terrier, border collie, rottie, or springer spaniel, give me a dog that is bred to do what it was designed to do, not one bred to an idealistic version. I make no apologies for my bias and I sure don't hide it.







We have diehard show people on here too which is an excellent balance. If you have a question on ANY line or type of GSD, there will be an expert here to help you out. Even if you have questions on a specific dog or breeding, chances are someone here will know.

Steve, I think you are probably within driving distance of a schutzhund club. You may be able to see working lines and German showlines at a schutzhund club. Go to a GSDCA (GSD Club of America) club/show and you'll be able to see the American lines. I highly recommend that anyone who has a question on lines to go see each one in person. You may go into the club or show liking one line and come out loving another.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Yup, the best thing to do is to see the differences with your own eyes. Don't spend too much time on the Internet "researching".
Attend a shutzhund trail. It's often easy to see working lines and SV showlines showing in the same trial.
Attend an AKC show to see AKC showlines in person.
I was once a member of a GSDCA that had working line, SV showline and AKC showline people as members. The club held free obedience classes twice a week and you could see all the different types of GSDs that members brought to the classes in the same place. It was really a great group, people didn't say negative things about other people's dogs. A lot of people owned GSDs of different types. One thing noticeable though is that a lot of the AKC show people, even the breeders, ended up owning a working line dog a few months after joining the club - they just couldn't resist LOL.


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I can attest to the value of seeing all sorts of GSDs in person! I just adopted a show line GSD with a LOT of angulation in the rear. Never having seen a dog like this in person, I totally freaked out thinking he was crippled and was walking funny. 

I was only used to more moderately angulated dogs, so seeing Ruger was startling. I'm used to it now, but it really struck me as "What's wrong with this dog??" It's different looking at pictures and seeing them in person.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.http://kerschberger.com/GermanShepherdTypes.htm


i just added that to my favorites







thanks..now i understand these dogs even more


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Hey Steve

That page was taken from The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd Dog by Linda Shaw.
If you read the whole thing it breaks down all the parts (head, back etc.) & Movement within the 3 Sub groups.

(A High-line with good *Working Ability *is the closest to the Breed Standard)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: (A High-line with good Working Ability is the closest to the Breed Standard)


I have to disagree with you there. I have seen more working line GSD's that I would want to incorporate into my breeding program than High line. I just love Angela's Diesel (sp?) and several of Anne Kent's dogs as well have the type and movement I could do well with in the AKC allbreed show ring. That way I would have a dog that can work (by my definition) and show at the same time, like I do know.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Daphne

The OP asked about difference in physical appearance.

And we are taking in general, and I added the Working Ability to what Linda Shaw said.



> Quote: West German Show (High Lines). This is the breed type most popular in Germany, and which at its best probably comes closest to the Breed Standard.


And I agree, I have seen some GREAT working-line dogs









Linda Shaw, did a lot of work studing the standard (I beleve she has working-lines) but based on the FCI. Standard in general they are the closest to the Breed Standard.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Where, specifically, does the workingline dog tend to deviate more from the actual written standard than the showline and not just someones "interpretation" of the standard?


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

My interpretation of what I have read from may sources, is that most of it comes from the angle of the croup in working-lines
in General have very short and STEEP croups and this determine the dog's under-reach and follow-through. 
The angle and length of the croup (and those of the upper and lower thighs) determine the angles of rear follow-through and under-reach.
The dog's angle of rear follow-through is equivalent to the dog's reach in front.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Interesting...................I think I have seen more showlines dogs with steep croups than working line dogs but I could be wrong. The *main* thing I have heard on working line dogs is insuffiicient front angulation.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

besides the obvious of color, head, size/mass of body - the big true structural difference is in front assembly - most WL are good in rear, may have "short" (could be longer ) croup...but 99% of the critiques I have heard are forearm/shoulder could have more anglation....when a WL dog has good front assembly, the judge will make a very very strong critique and point this out - my Danger was the only WL dog I have seen to get 3 critiques from 3 judges pointing out the correctness of his front assembly and movement.

Lee


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Sorry I'm a Guy and I have this thing for croups


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

My interpretation is that the GSD closest to the standard is the GSD that works and works well. This is what the breed founder intended, this is what he worked his life for, this is what he wanted the GSD to always remain. If it can do HGH-style herding all day long and keep up just fine, doesn't matter if the shoulder isn't perfect, it's obviously good for what the dog needs to do. No, I am not completely against all show, kkl, breeding to standard, etc, but at the end of the day, if the dog seen as perfectly matching the standard can't work but an SG dog can, guess who wins in my book!

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm
Bottom of the page has a perfect example of a standard made to fit a working dog. Good little read.









Question to the pros: what type of shoulder is best for clearing a palisade, lots of jumping, climbing, rough terrain, absorbing shock, etc? What type of rear? I am not referring to trotting, just rigorous, strenuous work. This I am genuinely curious about.


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## CWhite (Dec 8, 2004)

I saw the GSD Kaleef something or the other that one in Westminster. I donlt know if it was teh angle of the photograph or a bad photographer, but his snout looked like an Afghan Hounds!









I won't even begin to discuss the slide he had for a back.


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## CWhite (Dec 8, 2004)

I've seen "Freight Train" Danger, Man, he can move.


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## CWhite (Dec 8, 2004)

So, here is my question: 

Have you ever seen an angulated wolf?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Carolyn, we agree on Geneva! Pretty nice front half, but the rear half makes me weep for the breed. I hate to admit that I am glad these big, televised, all-breed show judges aren't putting this dog up higher. Maybe they are starting to remember what a GSD *should* look like.

You bring up a good point about the wolf. Look at the African Wild Dog (painted dog, Cape hunting dog, whatever you want to call it). It supposedly has the best endurance in the canine world. It is built to trot and run for amazing distances and lengths of time. They say that this is one predator that will make a kill quite often compared to other predators. It is superbly built. It is not angulated one iota. In fact, it has wonderful structure to go all day... and go.... and go... take down a gnu.... and go some more. Wolves too are known for endurance movement. This breed is supposed to be an endurance mover, able to move at a quick pace for an extended period of time not one day, not a couple days here and there, but every single day. The American-type rear angulation doesn't seem to serve a useful purpose except make for a stylized trot. I really would love technical information or proof that moderate angulation or stronger actually benefits the dog in a working purpose as opposed to a low/no angulation build. I have seen Linda Shaw's site and read what she has to say and my interpretation is that some angulation is good, but more than that detracts from the dog, especially physically.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: CarolynI've seen "Freight Train" Danger, Man, he can move.


The interesting thing about Danger was that a SV handler saw him at 6 months and the first comment was - "he is not a Timo (berrekestan - sp?) - he has to be a Champ Dakota"....and several people who have done alot of AKC showing wanted me to show him....shown by a girl who finished a bunch of Dobes - he took BOB at a match, and 2nd in a big group LOL LOL - he moves beautifully I have been told! But I am sure he prefers being a freight train!

Lee


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> Question to the pros: what type of shoulder is best for clearing a palisade, lots of jumping, climbing, rough terrain, absorbing shock, etc? What type of rear? I am not referring to trotting, just rigorous, strenuous work. This I am genuinely curious about.


I'm not a pro, but...

Look at a Border Collie, a working border collie, again not one of the fluffiest AKC ones, not even those raised for agility or flyball, but at those you can still find in the Scottish cliffs working all day long in the roughest terrain.


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