# seeking male for non-AKC female "wrong"?



## sierraolly (Mar 18, 2014)

We have a 14 month old female in her second estrous and we are thinking of letting her have a litter. she is not registered but we were shown paper work from our breeders vet verifying American GSD blood lines throughout both mom and dad. I am having a hard time finding a male to stud with because she is not papered. she is an amazing dog and very obedient and protective of my two kids. I am in the san diego area and she entered pre-estrous on nov 14th. advice? is her not being AKC that much a terrible thing that owners don't want to mate with her??


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

Has she been titled in any sports? Do you have all the appropriate health tests done? OFA scores or similar for hips and elbows? Are you prepared for the stress of whelping, have all the supplies on hand, and are financially ready for any complications including miscarriage, C-section, and possibly death of the female? Do you have an extensive knowledge of GSD bloodlines and how to combine them in breeding to produce puppies with good health, nerve, and temperament? If the answer is no to any of these questions, then she should not be bred. Please leave breeding to those with years of experience and research behind them. I'm sure she is a great dog, but just because a dog is great with a family and very obedient doesn't mean it should be bred.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

And no female should be bred younger than two years.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

?? "she is not registered but we were shown paper work from our breeders vet verifying American GSD blood lines throughout both mom and dad."

If you were shown paper work why don't you have paperwork ?


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## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

14 months old is too young to breed. Why do you want her to have a litter? There are plenty of purebred puppies dying in shelters everyday. 

I'm not against breeding, but breeding an unpapered female just because she's obedient and protective is not a good reason to breed.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Why would you breed a dog when you don't know the blood lines or genetic health risks?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Dogs don't need to have litters for personal fulfillment, if that's what you mean by "let her" have a litter. Breeding and whelping is actually an incredibly arduous process for them and can cause some major, even fatal problems for the bitch. 

Without papers, you can't say anything about her bloodlines, potential genetic issues, etc. What health testing have you done? Any titles (i.e. objective evaluations of temperament beyond "she's a good dog")? The vet can't "verify bloodlines." 

The reason you can't find a stud is because it's irresponsible to breed a puppy (she's still a puppy) with no pedigree (and it's not a snobbery thing, it's a "knowing bloodlines/health/temperament for generations" thing), no health testing (hips/elbows at a minimum, and they can't be done until two years), no 3rd party evaluations of temperament (titles, training, work). My male is very obedient and protective and is an absolute mess of a dog in ways that an inexperienced person wouldn't notice but would wreak havoc in puppies he produced. 

If you do find someone willing, please, at the very least... wait until she's two years old. Take some time to read through the threads about finding a reputable breeder, and understand why it will also likely be hard to find buyers for these puppies. This is the kind of breeding anybody with even a shred of experience or knowledge would steer very clear from. 

She's a lovely girl. What's your motivation for breeding her? If you're interested in going about it the right way and want to better the breed, then take the time to get her health tested, take the time to train and title. Learn as much as you can about anything and everything. Learn about the breed, the breed standard, learn about training and health.


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## sierraolly (Mar 18, 2014)

These are all good points and info. Dad was limited registry so he shouldn't have been bred to my understanding which is why we were not given papers. She has basic and advanced obedience training and has been taught commands in German and is going to test for canine good companion/canine good Samaritan. I've not done testing for hips or her bloodlines myself. That may be what we opt to do and hold off on breeding her. As a medical professional i feel i posses the skills needed for a safe whelping and maintaining safe and healthy pups thereafter. If 2 is the appropriate age once the necessary tests are complete with good results we may pursue it. It isn't for her personal fulfillment more providing good pups of great dispositions and not ending her potentially good line run dry because we failed to seek a more reputable breeder. 
But we will do more research and ensure she is healthy enough to carry and endure pups before the possibility of sending pups with future hip injuries and "tainting" the gsd. I am not as experienced in gsd breeding.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

If you do decide to breed her, have a good vet on hand. Many many things can go wrong during whelping. You say you're a medical professional, but unless you are a vet or vet tech who has learned about and assisted in whelpings, there are many signs of distress or things going downhill that could come up during whelping that you just may not recognize yourself, but would easily be recognized by a vet.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I encourage you to go visit your local shelters. They are full of dogs that came from good intentions. While you walk through there, remember that most of those dogs will not make it out alive.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I have a dog from a breeding like this. He's a mess, both physically and in terms of temperament. And he has his CGC. He was produced by a guy who really loved his dog, who was a "good dog with good obedience and was protective," and wanted a clone. 

There are enough puppies with great temperaments, produced by people who spend years mastering the breed (including training). The fact that your dog came from an irresponsible breeder is reason enough not to breed her- she may be a great dog, but there's likely all kinds of hidden junk in the DNA because she wasn't produced with care and attention. You say you got her from an irresponsible breeder, but you want to be an irresponsible breeder (and producing even one litter makes you a breeder). You're perpetuating the cycle. Breeding like this is a total crapshoot, when so little is known about the dos involved- the chances that you'll get puppies like your girl are slim. People can predict what puppies will be like based on generations of careful selection, previous litters, etc. There is so much that goes into ensuring solid, stable dogs CONSISTENTLY, rather than by luck. 

While it sounds like your mind is set, I'm also really glad you're taking this "tough love" stuff in stride and are open to learning. Everyone starts somewhere and most of us have probably felt the same way (ie wanting to breed our dog) before we knew better because of experience and time with the breed.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

California is probably the WORST state for the numbers of GSDs being dumped in shelters. 

I recently had a small litter - to get that litter, via C section, and to produce it - cost me over $5000.00. That does NOT include training, showing, health clearances...just breeding expenses - and not even the stud fee is included!!! There are always risks - both financially and health wise to your female in breeding. Puppies with no papers are worth very very little - you are likely to end up in the hole financially.

A dog with "no papers" and no health clearances should not be bred. Doing so will put you in the worst level of "Back yard breeders". Any responsible, knowledgable owner of a male of quality will not breed to an untitled female, let alone an unregistered female. Unfortunately, there are many many many wonderful dogs out there euthanized for lack of homes, and most ARE AKC registered. The "good line" of your female does not exist in your female if you have no papers. And believe me, there are many many dogs out there being bred with very similar lines. Take any 5 random dogs of any type - Euro Show, Working or ASL and within 5 generations, 4 of the 5 will be related. 

Your dog is a wonderful member of your family and you love her. Why gamble and risk her life for a very chancy financial return? There is no real justifiable reason for breeding her at all.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but people come here for help from knowledgable breeders, and often we hope to make them rethink their goals because of the knowledge and experience we have.

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

sierraolly said:


> These are all good points and info. Dad was limited registry so he shouldn't have been bred to my understanding which is why we were not given papers. She has basic and advanced obedience training and has been taught commands in German and is going to test for canine good companion/canine good Samaritan. I've not done testing for hips or her bloodlines myself. That may be what we opt to do and hold off on breeding her. As a medical professional i feel i posses the skills needed for a safe whelping and maintaining safe and healthy pups thereafter. If 2 is the appropriate age once the necessary tests are complete with good results we may pursue it. It isn't for her personal fulfillment more providing good pups of great dispositions and not ending her potentially good line run dry because we failed to seek a more reputable breeder.
> But we will do more research and ensure she is healthy enough to carry and endure pups before the possibility of sending pups with future hip injuries and "tainting" the gsd. I am not as experienced in gsd breeding.


You do understand that breeders often sell dogs on limited registration because they *shouldn't* be bred right? Temperment issues or genetic abnormalities that pop up. Perhaps it was a first time breeding that they tried and needed time to assess what it would actually produce.
Every breeding is a crapshoot, with knowledge and experience and all the right genetics, stuff goes horribly wrong and you are out one bitch. 

My own darling little genetic nightmare had parents who I'm sure were nice dogs. I got a dog with a list of health and behavioral issues that is never ending, I get to pay not one vet bill a year, but 6-8. Specialist fees, tests, not to mention that she has a bad heart and we have no idea from day to day if her next little panic episode might actually kill her. She's 4. How do you feel about selling that heartache to someone? My previous dog died from a genetic disease, one that could have been prevented. I had her all her life. That was a wonderful kick in the guts out of nowhere. I'm certain her parents were nice dogs as well. 
Cheap German Shepherds often end up in horrific places, and you can't sell them for top dollar with no papers, no provable bloodlines, no means of ensuring genetics.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As an owner with a stud dog, I would say you are not attracting a stud because your dog has no health clearances, is not old enough for breeding, and has no titles or purposeful type training to prove her breed worthiness. Yes, the lack of papers is an issue as well, but those other things are going to be deal-breakers above all else.


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## EmilyB (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes it is wrong. Long gone are those days when having a litter for the kids, or to make the female a better dog is something we do. Look around you at the shelters overflowing with dogs.

Breed worthy dogs are shown to be standard, with parents health tested. Leave it to the experts, or become one.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

LoveEcho said:


> Dogs don't need to have litters for personal fulfillment, if that's what you mean by "let her" have a litter. Breeding and whelping is actually an incredibly arduous process for them and can cause some major, even fatal problems for the bitch.
> 
> Without papers, you can't say anything about her bloodlines, potential genetic issues, etc. What health testing have you done? Any titles (i.e. objective evaluations of temperament beyond "she's a good dog")? The vet can't "verify bloodlines."
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

LoveEcho said:


> I have a dog from a breeding like this. He's a mess, both physically and in terms of temperament. And he has his CGC. He was produced by a guy who really loved his dog, who was a "good dog with good obedience and was protective," and wanted a clone.
> 
> There are enough puppies with great temperaments, produced by people who spend years mastering the breed (including training). The fact that your dog came from an irresponsible breeder is reason enough not to breed her- she may be a great dog, but there's likely all kinds of hidden junk in the DNA because she wasn't produced with care and attention. You say you got her from an irresponsible breeder, but you want to be an irresponsible breeder (and producing even one litter makes you a breeder). You're perpetuating the cycle. Breeding like this is a total crapshoot, when so little is known about the dos involved- the chances that you'll get puppies like your girl are slim. People can predict what puppies will be like based on generations of careful selection, previous litters, etc. There is so much that goes into ensuring solid, stable dogs CONSISTENTLY, rather than by luck.
> 
> While it sounds like your mind is set, I'm also really glad you're taking this "tough love" stuff in stride and are open to learning. Everyone starts somewhere and most of us have probably felt the same way (ie wanting to breed our dog) before we knew better because of experience and time with the breed.


:thumbup:


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

There are beautiful, obedient, protective, smart, wonderful german shepherd dogs begging to live, and dying by the hundreds every day in California and across the country. Do not add to this animal overpopulation. Please do not, under any circumstances, breed your girl. Go look, look at all the sad faces and pleading eyes, and please, please rethink your decision. Please.

Thank you for giving what I say serious consideration. I understand your intentions are not bad ones, but you do not understand the magnitude of the problem. Spay your girl and maybe use the energy and financial resources required to whelp a litter to help some that are already here.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Having a dog in a similar situation as your own I will give you some firm advice based on previous AKC litters from the late 80s. My dog is not papered. I did not pay $2000 for an 8 week old puppy. I have survived 1 heat with a denim diaper and will survive two more before she is altered, because (I am of the camp not to tie tubes, very dangerous for the animal) ask Dr. Alfred Plechner why, I'm not explaining it to you incorrectly) the dog will be altered around 30 months. 

*What you're trying to accomplish is breeding a pet quality dog in a show quality world.*

"The question you must ask yourself is $1500 in cash and years of guilt knowing that 8 ADDITIONAL puppies you allowed into this world could be potentially suffering from genetic flaws, health issues and bad owner's > ?

I can't tell you what to do, even AKC runt pups and unsold perfect dogs die, get sick and have cruel owner's. Make a $1500 donation to a German Shepherd rescue and sleep well for 25 years, instead of a reversal...

SGCSG


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You say you are in the medical profession an capable of handling a litter being born, etc.
Ok I have worked for vets for over 35 years and bred dogs for a lot of them. I have had and or seen females die during birth. Puppies born dead. Puppy mummified blocking the birth of the others, puppies born missing legs, cleft palets, missing toes, intestines outside of body. I could go on and on. Females coming into the clinic with a dead puppy hanging outside because the owners were not home when whelping started and then found the issue. Females die during c sections and then trying to raise a litter of 12 puppies on your own. 
Does your medical training prepare you for this? I have known surgeons who panicked when their female had issues and had to come in the middle of the night to have us deliver dead puppies: they were in the medical profession and thought they could handle all of it.
If the sire of your litter had Limited registration", then the breeder of that dog decided for reasons unknown to NOT allow breeding of this male. The interesting thing is that the person who bought this male on limited registration most likely signed a contract stating they would not breed this dog
. I am not saying that a backyard breeding ALWAYS produces problemdogs, BUT even well know breeders have issues with litters and genetics and they study and plan and breed very carefully. I have had puppies from small family type breeding to top kennels and gotten puppies with issues and others prefect.
Are you ready to take back EVERY puppy during its lifetime if genetic issues pop up? How about if a family can no longer take care of said puppy that you sold and it is now 5 years old? Are you willing to take it back and place it in a home? Are you willing to give genetic guarantees for said puppies?
Enjoy your dog, continue training her. Don't breed her.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Sierraolly--

I have read all the posts, and haven't posted because the other, more knowledgeable posters have said all the right, correct things. There is one more aspect I must mention, however.

I have had GSDs in my life for nearly 50 years. For most of that time I have purchased puppies, some from BYBs such as what you are aspiring to become, some from established breeders. Compared to the past 5 dogs who have been rescues, guess where the best hips/elbows have been? From the rescues! Guess who were 2 of the most mellow and "nice" GSDs that I have had? Two of my rescue boys. Guess where one of the very best-bred GSDs I have owned came from? He's a rescue.

Believe me, I have had dogs that made me wish with all my heart I was wealthy enough to have a clone produced before he or she died. But I never wanted to breed any of them--the risks involved, the cost involved and the very real emotional trauma that could be involved were way more than I wanted to pay.

Your chances of getting exactly what you want in a GSD are greater if your next dog is a rescue--especially from a rescue group--than if you breed your female. And if you just have to have a puppy, find a breeder who has already done all the research, a breeder who knows his/her bloodlines well enough to pick out the exact right puppy for you and your family. 

Please, please listen to all the wise advice given on this thread. It comes from decades and decades of research, personal experience, heartaches, and hard learning curves. When you are ready for another dog, find a breeder who has gone through all these things to establish their lines and can provide you with the puppy you want.

Please be wise and do not breed your female.

Susan


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wanted to raise a litter as well and decided to take home a pregnant female from death row instead of breeding my own dog(s). Saved her and her 10 pups and it was such a rewarding experience.
I would never breed any of my female dogs, Deja or a future one, cause I wouldn't trust anyone with the puppies that I raised. If the shelter had not had a contract with me, I would have ended up with 11 extra dogs .....and no husband probably.
So please don't.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For all I know, you do have a nice female. For the purpose of this thread, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not use the scare tactics or guilt about animals in shelters. But my original position remains the same...you cannot expect to find a nice stud who has jumped through all the right hoops if you are not willing to do the same. Your female is too young. You need to get health certifications (she must be 24 months for OFA) at bare minimum. An owner of a stud that is willing to do a breeding with an untitled female will at least want to see some purpose to the female's breeding/pedigree and evidence of her temperament. Not just all-breed obedience training but why is your GSD a great *GSD*? You need to be able to show this and answer these questions before you can even decide whether your female is breeding quality, let alone hope to attract a nice stud. That said, there are plenty of people with intact male dogs that they will allow any females to breed to for their price. It all depends on whether you want to do it the right way, or just get it done.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this statement "she is not registered but we were shown paper work from our breeders vet verifying American GSD blood lines throughout both mom and dad"

later - this "not ending her potentially good line run dry because we failed to seek a more reputable breeder."


You don't know if she has a potentially good line , because you don't know GSD (your own admission) , no testing has been done, probably for generations , not for performance not for hip and orthopedic integrity . Run dry? End of the line ? Highly unlikely.
If you want as an education for yourself go back to the breeder's vet and ask for a photo copy , or ask the breeder for a photo copy of the registration papers . The sire would have one -- with a "limited status" , which means not intended for breeding.
I don't know why the vet would clutter his/her files with paperwork that has nothing to do with care management through the clinic .

"Dad was limited registry so he shouldn't have been bred to my understanding which is why we were not given papers"
This may have nothing to do with the quality of the dog . It may be a responsible attempt by the breeder of that male to control breeding , as in NO breeding , until later date when the dog can be neutered. The limited breeding may be a condition because the breeder determined that the new owner would be a good owner , but ignorant on breeding .
In any case the person who owns the male now violated a contract that he signed . Might have knowingly signed without any intention of abiding by the contract he agreed to with his signature . May have had it all pre-planned - already the owner of the female and wanting to have pups for $$$ . 
That is fraud.

People rightfully get hot when a breeder provides guarantees , that aren't worth the paper that they are written on because there never was any intention to make good on them.
In this case I think the breeder of the male with the limited registration should be made aware of the violation of the agreement and I think they should pursue it.

Enough of this stuff already.

For all you know they could be inbred relatives.

Ethics .


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

The OP was able to join a forum with 67,375 current members (and a gagillion guests) and put it out there that they were looking for a stud dog. 

I really don't think they are really interested in the reasons why it's a bad idea.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

There's always hope, they got it all...from the breeders, the guilt trippers, the stud dog owners, the vet techs, and the just plain wanters of what's good for the breed (and a few other categories I didn't mention). they got it all, lots of nays, not a SINGLE yay. 

We gave it our best, I'd say. And that's all we can do.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

sierraolly said:


> Dad was limited registry so he shouldn't have been bred to my understanding which is why we were not given papers. .


That statement right there shows that you know breeding this bitch would be wrong.
Good for you for doublechecking with this forum.


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