# Hip positioning and sedation



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Interesting discussion, probably merits its own thread. 

Please share any opinions, research, etc regarding hip positioning and accurate x-rays while sedated vs. fully awake....

All I can say is I've had three dogs have their hips x-rayed (one done once, one done twice, and one done three times, so six times total using four different vets) and all were sedated, I believe all times ace. was used, and in each case I was happy with the positioning and the results (either the informal reading or the formal OFA/SV ratings). In each case I doubt the readings/ratings would change if not sedated. The minor issues would still be present and the overall condition of the hips would not really change even if we assume that not sedating could make them look slightly better. In most of these cases, I brought my dogs to the vet in the morning and picked them up on my way home from work so I assume sedation is the norm since the owner is not always there to help position the dog. None of my dogs have had a bad experience getting x-rays or bad reaction to sedation. That is my purely anecdotal contribution to this conversation.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I had Aiden sedated and reversed for hips and elbows done at 12 months without any problems. I stayed with him and helped with positioning and we were in and out. He spent the majority of the rest if the day sleeping but other than that, no problems whatsoever. I don't think I'll do official OFAs for him since I know he doesn't have any dysplasia and I'm not using him for breeding, but I plan on it for my next puppy so this thread will be on my list to watch 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I had Whiskey done sedated because he is too large and squirmy to hold properly. The vet had excellent positioning and was knowledgeable about hips/elbows. She is well known in my area for her xrays. 

I had Wiva done without sedation under the same vet. Wiva is very willing and calm when I handle her. She is very tolerant of me poking and prodding so she was fine with me positioning her for her xrays. She held very nicely and the xrays turned out very well for both hips and elbows. I would bet most people would have difficulty telling that it was done without sedation. I will have Wiva's hips repeated at 2 years. I will most likely do them without sedation. I don't like exposing my dogs to anything more than what is necessary.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I just posted this on another thread but it is a good read about positioning and awake vs sedated.
http://woodhavenlabs.com/documents/Variation_in_OFA.pdf


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I have experienced the sedation technique 3 times with 2 dogs, I was present all times. Positioning was by vet and his assistant (the dog is really stretched by pulling on front/hind legs by 2 people). After the x-ray a reversal was given to wake the dog up. I can not imagine trying to position Gnash or Creasy without the sedation! Someone would get hurt.

Gnash's official result was A1 hip/elbows, have not sent in Creasy's yet but vet was confident Creasy will get Good or higher OFA or A1 if sent to SV. I am all for the sedation technique as noone gets hurt (dog or human). It is noted on the film so I imagine the vet making the decision is fully aware if dog was sedated or not. Both dogs went back to training the next day, no issues.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have had 4 dogs done used propofol on all of them. Xrays all came out fine.


----------



## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I had both my dogs done without sedation, my friend had her dog done at the same time, also no sedation.

Ironhide, 17 months: Hip prelims done in one shot, no sedation. I put her on the table, rolled her on her back told her to "wait". Switched places with assistant, left the room. Watched the vet from the window. He pulled her back legs straight out, took a little time to make sure she was straight, took the picture. We checked it right away, it was good. Prelims came back "OFA Good"

Ironhide, 2.5 years: Hips, Elbows, Heart, Thyroid all done no sedation. Same technique as above with the hips and elbows. Heart, she had to lay quietly on her side and not move for 3 minutes. Then Thyroid, they took a MASSIVE needle, I held her head up and they took blood from her jugular vein, while I held her. She didn't flinch a muscle. Hips "OFA Good", Elbows "OFA Normal" (only needed one xray photo for each), Heart "Normal", Thyroid "Normal".

Gladiator, 12 months: Hip Prelims done with no sedation. Same as Ironhide, I put him on the table, flipped him, placed him and left. The vet had to do VERY little straightening. After he took the shot, I came back in to check out the shot to see if we needed to re-shoot. The vet said it was the best positioning he has gotten out of any dog awake or asleep. I was pretty proud at that moment, my training paid off...LOL

Ally: 17 months & 2.5 years: My friends dog did hip prelims and then final hip and elbow xrays again all with no sedation. Hips came back good, Elbows ED1...

All of the dogs were done at the same time, we pretty much just spent 2 hours at the vet clinic. I am not willing to put my dogs under if I don't have to, and I knew that I would not have to for this, so chose not to. If it came down to having to do it, I am sure I would. But all anaesthetics have risks, and I am not going to take them unless it is unavoidable.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Is sedation considered the same as "putting under"? I always thought of that as general anaesthesia.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Is sedation considered the same as "putting under"? I always thought of that as general anaesthesia.


Sedation is a form of anesthesia. It comes with very similar risks as full blown general anesthesia with the exception that it is not with the gas and the dog is still breathing on it's own. The initial anesthesia they are given prior to the start of surgery and intubation is the sedation.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes but the dog is not unconscious. When my dogs were sedated they could still stand and walk around, they were definitely conscious and didn't need their vitals monitored b/c it was outwardly obvious they were fine (or would be apparent if they were in distress).


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Yes but the dog is not unconscious. When my dogs were sedated they could still stand and walk around, they were definitely conscious and didn't need their vitals monitored b/c it was outwardly obvious they were fine (or would be apparent if they were in distress).


 
It is normally pretty obvious if they go into distress.  Light sedation is generally ok with minimal complications, but it is still considered anesthesia and does come with risks. The risks get more severe the more sedation that is used.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Right, but I think when most people talk about "sedation" when doing hip x-rays that's what they mean, sedation, not "putting a dog under" (unconscious) general anaesthesia.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Right, but I think when most people talk about "sedation" when doing hip x-rays that's what they mean, sedation, not "putting a dog under" (unconscious) general anaesthesia.


 
I know when Leyna went in for her prelims they put her further under than light sedation. Not enough for intubation but pretty darn close. I wasn't happy when I found that out.

I think some do get confused with light/conscious sedation and general anesthesia.

Hades will actually be going in next month for a minor surgery to his eyelid. It got a small cut on it and some hairs are growing in towards the eye that have to be removed. We will be doing hips at the same time. I am curious to see how different they look when he goes later on without sedation. I know Leyna's were better without than they were with sedation.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

When dogs are sedated to the point of asleep but breathing on their own, they relax more resulting in loose hips. Using Tranqulizer results in tighter x-rays of the hips. OFA readers are suppose to take this into consideration when reading but rarely do. Just another flaw in the OFA system IMO.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How would the OFA readers know whether or not the dog was sedated?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> How would the OFA readers know whether or not the dog was sedated?


There's a spot on the form, it asks how the dog was restrained - physical or chemical, and a place to check for anesthesia (type:____), chemical (type:___), or other (type:____)

http://www.offa.org/pdf/hdedapp_bw.pdf


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Oh, my vet sent mine in so I wasn't aware of this, thanks!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My vet sent it in too, but I wanted to make sure that everything was filled out and spelled correctly, so I printed the form out at home, typed in all the names and addresses and stuff, and brought it with me when I dropped my dogs off.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My vet sent it in too, but I wanted to make sure that everything was filled out and spelled correctly, so I printed the form out at home, typed in all the names and addresses and stuff, and brought it with me when I dropped my dogs off.


 
That's the same thing I did. I prefer it that way so I know it is completed correctly.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> When dogs are sedated to the point of asleep but breathing on their own, they relax more resulting in loose hips. Using Tranqulizer results in tighter x-rays of the hips. OFA readers are suppose to take this into consideration when reading but rarely do. Just another flaw in the OFA system IMO.


 
Too true.
I know when Leyna had her official ones done they were done without sedation and looked much better and straighter than her prelims but I also took her to a different vet.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Will be doing prelims check on Hunter tomorrow without sedation...


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have done prelims on close to 20 dogs (hips/elbows) and OFA's on 9 or 10. My vet is one of the "go to" vets for hips/elbows. I have done 2 with sedation and the rest without. The sedation was used for dogs who didn't like my vet. 

There are vets that put dogs under general anesthesia and that is the only way they will do them.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I've compared results from the x-rays that were submitted to both OFA and PennHip. One dog was "knocked out" when the x-rays were taken. The results- Upper 20 th percentile from PennHip (one hip measured .18 the other was .31 the average on German Shepherds is.41); the OFA rating came back as "Fair". 
Lesson of the story, if the dog is "knocked out", PennHip method should be used to measure DJD. JMO


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doc - Which test, in your opinion, gives you a truer result?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Had Frag xrayed about 2 or 3 months ago?

No sedation of any kind, vet's choice on an unfriendly GSD with the vet. I got recommended this vet just for the radiographs as I heard they did a great job, even though they were "country" and cheap. (spent less than $150 for 3 radiographs and a "diagnoses"/thorough exam)

I was pretty happy with the radiographs, though I don't know as much about reading them as some here do. I was actually going to find the disc soon and upload them to get everyone's opinion, the vet seemed knowledgable about OFA/prelims and hip xrays in general, but he could've always been trying to fool me. I thought they all looked normal though with nothing wrong and very straight, and he said if we sent them to OFA he'd likely get an excellent rating (again, could've been dr. trying to make me feel better?)... he seemed genuinely impressed by the solidity of Frag though and completely boggled as to why he went completely lame in his hind end for so long with nothing apparently wrong. I digress..

ANYWAY... he wasn't sedated, was muzzled, I got him onto the table and asked him to roll over, then the techs took over and I left the room as they moved Mr. Growly pants into position, took about 3 minutes to get the first two shots, and less than a minute to get his back shot after he came off the table and we looked at the hips and decided we wanted more radiographs. I was impressed that they were professional enough to do it with an "aggressive" dog, no owner present, and fully awake. And with such great shots. I was happy because I really don't like drugging my dogs for anything uneccessary and didn't want to sedate him if I didn't have to.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Doc - Which test, in your opinion, gives you a truer result?


I would go with PennHip. I appreciate having actual measurements compared to a databank of breed specific dogs. The databank has ALL results so a more accurate comparison is made. PennHip also uses 3different x-rays/positions to examine the joints. 

OFA has not changed their method since its inception, inspit of the all the advances made in science. Three people "read" a x-ray and the rating is based on the lowest reading. 

I think PennHip is a much better predictor of joint disorders/diseases. JMO


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I have to question OFA results for many reasons. Have you ever noticed that some kernels end up with a disproportionally amount of "Excellent" hips from out crossed dogs? While other kennels submit x-rays from a long line of "good" hipped dogs with failing results? PennHip gives me a measurement (a number) and compares it to the average number found in their sample population. The breeder sees how the hips compare to the breed and decides if the dog is worth breeding or not. The dog owner gets a feel for where their dog stands as far as hip issues are concerned.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

DOC, I plan on doing PennHip with Hades at this age and OFA's at 2. We will see the comparisons lol


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

jaggirl47 said:


> DOC, I plan on doing PennHip with Hades at this age and OFA's at 2. We will see the comparisons lol


I'm not sure comparing hips at 5 months measured via PennHip to the same hips a year and half later is a reliable assessment. Just remember the PennHipp will give you a number, OFA will give you a rating. 
A better comparison would be between the same set of x-rays at a given time.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Doc said:


> I'm not sure comparing hips at 5 months measured via PennHip to the same hips a year and half later is a reliable assessment. Just remember the PennHipp will give you a number, OFA will give you a rating.
> A better comparison would be between the same set of x-rays at a given time.


 
That is true. However, he is too young for OFA and he has a minor surgery on Monday so I wanted to get the PinnHip done while he is already out.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I understand. I'm not sure I would bother with OFA. I find their readings so inconsistent. Save you time and money and just go with the PennHipp. Even at the younger age, I would trust the PennHipp results because of their process and methodology.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Is there any reason to do any at all? I mean, if the dog is not going to do a breed survey eventually where OFA or a-stamp is required, I would save myself the money and just have a specialist take and read the x-rays and trust their judgment. I am not as familiar with PennHIP though the vet I have been using for x-rays did the research PennHIP is based on. Do the ratings get more accurate the more films they see? What is the value of knowing in what percentile the dog falls? I guess I've always seen it as the dog is dysplastic or not.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Is there any reason to do any at all? I mean, if the dog is not going to do a breed survey eventually where OFA or a-stamp is required, I would save myself the money and just have a specialist take and read the x-rays and trust their judgment. I am not as familiar with PennHIP though the vet I have been using for x-rays did the research PennHIP is based on. Do the ratings get more accurate the more films they see? What is the value of knowing in what percentile the dog falls? I guess I've always seen it as the dog is dysplastic or not.


 
It basically tells you the likely-hood of the dog developing dysplasia further down the road. It has been shown to be extremely accurate. I'm just one of those that like to know even though I don't breed.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Is there any reason to do any at all? I mean, if the dog is not going to do a breed survey eventually where OFA or a-stamp is required, I would save myself the money and just have a specialist take and read the x-rays and trust their judgment. I am not as familiar with PennHIP though the vet I have been using for x-rays did the research PennHIP is based on. Do the ratings get more accurate the more films they see? What is the value of knowing in what percentile the dog falls? I guess I've always seen it as the dog is dysplastic or not.


Too much information to discuss here. The OFA is so flawed it is useless IMO. If you think OFA grades will help eliminate HD, it has not and will not because it is all subjective and based on "eye balling" the results. Breeders are smart enough not to submit bad hips to OFA. You have no choice if you PennHip - the numbers go in and an average is established for each breed. Therefore, your dog's hips are only compared to other dogs of the same breed. The results being each breed has an average number to compare with. If your dogs has hips in the upper percentile, your dog has better hips than the average dog in that breed. OFA "sees" a set of hips and labels them, but another reader may "see" them differently and give a different grade. The lower grade wins, regardless if the dog was read as better by two of three readers. I do not think that is a very good way to determine the breeding status of a dog.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

jaggirl47 said:


> It basically tells you the likely-hood of the dog developing dysplasia further down the road. It has been shown to be extremely accurate. I'm just one of those that like to know even though I don't breed.


Oh I like to know, I even "looked at" my neutered rescue mutt, but it seems like in these cases if you are already paying for a specialist to do the x-ray and probably give their opinion before sending them off, why go beyond that? Is there a reason not to trust the reading I got with Coke's x-rays and pay more to send them in for a rating? Is a 6 year old dog someday going to develop HD? I don't think so. I guess so far I've been lucky that everything has been obvious (each dog has rather obviously been not dysplastic) so I only send in the ones for dogs I want to breed survey since it's required.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> I do not think that is a very good way to determine the breeding status of a dog.


Even if the quality of the hips is clear to a layperson I don't think hips alone are a good way to determine breeding status.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Oh I like to know, I even "looked at" my neutered rescue mutt, but it seems like in these cases if you are already paying for a specialist to do the x-ray and probably give their opinion before sending them off, why go beyond that? Is there a reason not to trust the reading I got with Coke's x-rays and pay more to send them in for a rating? Is a 6 year old dog someday going to develop HD? I don't think so. I guess so far I've been lucky that everything has been obvious (each dog has rather obviously been not dysplastic) so I only send in the ones for dogs I want to breed survey since it's required.


 
With PennHip it's all about the measurments with 3 different views of the hips. An expert is not able to do the measurements. They have to be sent in. The expert radiologist for PennHip is only trained to take the specific xrays. As far as OFA, why not? I'm the type that does DNA swabs on my dog just because I want to see the results. It doesn't hurt and it gives me more information for down the road.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Hips are not the only determining factorBUT a survey requires OFA (flawed assessment). Hips are emphasized way too much IMO. I am not going to debate the merits of who can or can not read a x-ray correctly. I like PennHip and will not use OFA anymore.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

jaggirl47 said:


> With PennHip it's all about the measurments with 3 different views of the hips. An expert is not able to do the measurements. They have to be sent in. The expert radiologist for PennHip is only trained to take the specific xrays. As far as OFA, why not? I'm the type that does DNA swabs on my dog just because I want to see the results. It doesn't hurt and it gives me more information for down the road.


In my case the person who does most of my x-rays *is* the person whose research PennHIP was built on so he knows how to read the films and do all the fancy measurements but never has bothered, it's always been clear to both of us when a dog is or isn't dysplastic so we don't go an further. I guess that is what I'm getting at, I don't really buy that the *only* people qualified to determine HD/no HD are the exact people on the OFA or PennHIP panel right this moment. I would feel upset if my radiologist said one thing and then the PennHIP results came back totally different.


----------



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Liesje said:


> In my case the person who does most of my x-rays *is* the person whose research PennHIP was built on so he knows how to read the films and do all the fancy measurements but never has bothered, it's always been clear to both of us when a dog is or isn't dysplastic so we don't go an further. I guess that is what I'm getting at, I don't really buy that the *only* people qualified to determine HD/no HD are the exact people on the OFA or PennHIP panel right this moment. I would feel upset if my radiologist said one thing and then the PennHIP results came back totally different.


I wish we had more vets like yours around here. 

I can look at hips and generally tell if they look good or not (OFA type xrays), but I have no clue with the PennHip. Hades will be out for surgery anyways so I might as well do it at that time.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

So I'll just read my own x-rays since I can read them and grade the hips myself. Lies, you are not the only one who has had hips read by Doc after OFA screwed up. LOL


----------

