# Grimm's 'onlead barking/lunging' evaluation



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Me again.. sick of me yet?









Today we had a trainer come to evaluate Grimm onlead with another dog(her dog) at a distance. Grimm is fine offlead with other dogs, friendly --providing background here-- but onlead, he barks and lunges. 
The trainer says she honestly sees zero anxiety or aggression here-- Grimm's body language is rather one of "Yo!! Let's party! I'm the star! Let's see what we're about-- YEEEHAWW!" Ignoring me, distracted by the thrill of a wild doggy interaction, he throws a big hullabaloo.







I do admit there is almost sometimes a sense of tension-mixed-with-fun in these outbursts in Grimm, tension to get a party started.









In the past, when Grimm yanked his lead from my weak hands and raced off to another dog (twice), he each time only playbows, barks, and comes back on command. (we practice recalls lots-- but this always stuns me when he will return)

This is the second trainer who has evaluated Grimm as not actually being aggressive, but raising a ruckus in anticipation of a thrilling bark-and-playbow fest. When the first trainer corrected Grimm firmly for barking at another dog, then downed him, Grimm downed, then just rolled comfortably onto one side/hip, and let out a dramatic SIIIGGGHH.... but kept some anticipation in his gaze on the other dog.

When I am able (I almost *always* forget







) to boom a thundering verbal "PFUUUIII" in a deep tone, Grimm always stops his outburst, looks mortally embarrassed, and we can walk by 3 other dogs on the same walk and he just makes a deeply wrinkly forhead of hopeful interest at the other dogs.

Is there any special advice for a dog that barks at other dogs and is NOT doing it out of fear? I am doing NILIF and strong leadership at home. I LOVE the 'Feisty Fido' book a wonderful friend gave me!! Those excersises sound realistic and do-able. Most books are for fear-aggressive dogs. Am I too soft on Grimm with this one issue? Too wimpy on walks only, or with this issue only? He is nicely responsive to my voice. Normally, I can only remember to leash correct (weak, ineffective-- even with prong).. I always forget to PFUUUIII. Do I need an anti-wimpy protocol while on walks, like a Cesar Milan strut? Increase working on distractions? Will a class (with a trainer serving as my hands for the first few classes) get Grimm over his anticipation of a doggy party that never happens, if he never gets to initiate a playfest while onlead?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would focus more on teaching him what you WANT and less on what you don't want. I'm not saying ditch the prong and corrections b/c I know you need a prong to control him and that he's an unruly adolescent right now, but I would definitely be always carrying some **** irresistible treats on walks. I have a 1.5 year old dog, very large mutt, and he is very confident and social, always wants to charge up to new people and dogs. His walking and commands have come along nicely (we just got him in November, he had no training before that). Right now we are preparing for the CGC. One of the tests is that he has to walk at heel towards another dog and handler, head-on, then stop and sit next to the other handler and dog while handlers shake hands. He's not allowed to pull, sniff at the other dog, bark, etc. We figured FOR SURE he will fail this every time, but yesterday he did it twice! Perfect! Our trick is jerky strips. We don't even give him little pieces of treats, we literally hold the strip in his mouth so he's chewing as we walk. If he stops, sits, and waits while ignoring the other dog and handler, we push the rest of the jerky strip out of our hand and he gets it. Basically, we just go through the exercise baiting him the entire way through. If he stops focusing and lunges towards the dog, we say "uh oh!", treat goes away, we turn back and start over. Acting calm and paying attention = jerky. Not paying attention and pulling towards other dog = verbal correction and having to leave. The choice is the dog's, but the dog needs a reason to pay attention to you rather than lunge at the other dog. I don't think physical corrections really work unless they mean something to the dog, and for a large, strong, adolescent GSD, it's going to take one **** of a correction to override that desire to get in the other dog's business. Instead, provide a yummy, rewarding alternative. Work up to it. Start at quite a distance and move closer and closer. I think the dog needs to be setup for success. If he clearly cannot contain himself being right with another dog, then start at 30 feet first. It's not that you are a poor leader, it just sounds like at this point, he sees no reason to pay attention to you b/c he's just getting corrections.

I think a class is a good idea. It has really helped our dog b/c he spends time working on attention with dogs he already knows. We let them play together off lead before class. That helps keep the excitement down because they are worn out and have already met each other. It's a nice transition, rather than always meeting a totally new dog in a new environment.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

If you can work him around other dogs and show him that he has to pay attention to you no matter what else is going on, I think you'll have a wonderfully attentive dog.







Basically, he needs to learn that just because he sees another dog doesn't mean he's going to get a chance to play. He needs to direct his attention back to you and wait for you to give him permission to have fun (if you so choose).

I don't think you need to get physical with him. Just work on getting his attention back on you. Ris reacts out of fear but what I do with her could easily work for Grimm (no guarantees though). Basically, I use a word that will break her concentration and get her refocused on me. When we're on walks, I use a tuggie (so she can release her prey drive). If she gets distracted and 'turns on' I ask her if she'd like to play tuggie. That's usually enough to break her focus and get her to turn back to me. I reward her with a vigorous game of tug.

In class, I will usually tell her 'hey,' poke her with my finger, or lure her with a treat to get her refocused. Once she's got her attention back on me, she is lavishly rewarded.

It's a slow progress. But we are seeing results!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Maybe I can find a class where a trainer will be willing to work Grimm for me, and be my hands, for the first 3 classes or so, until the idea clicks that he can actually be there and not charge into a meet-n-greet. I like the treat-lure idea. It isn't so much a bribe as a way to refocus. The scary part is, there are times when I can't correct him enough to get any focus at all when the sudden-dog-on-walk is close enough. Then i am helpless to give a correction Grimm can even notice-- even with the prong. Maybe it's finally time to stop using plain ole kibble, and begin using.... lowfat hotdogs of a good quality, and cut em into TINY pieces. Greasy pockets are a small price to pay.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfThe trainer says she honestly sees zero anxiety or aggression here-- Grimm's body language is rather one of "Yo!! Let's party! I'm the star! Let's see what we're about-- YEEEHAWW!" Ignoring me, distracted by the thrill of a wild doggy interaction, he throws a big hullabaloo.


Patti, that is EXACTLY how Keefer acts, lol! After having a previous dog who was highly leash reactive, (which was definitely fear based), I can tell that his reactivity is coming from a completely different place. Fear reactive dogs put on an aggressive display to scare away whatever triggers them because they are restrained by the leash and can't escape. Our boys are throwing a tantrum because they wanna go play!!!







They're frustrated because they don't get to interact with the other dog. 

I love the exercises in Feisty Fido, and also in Control Unleashed, even though the primary reason for leash reactivity is usually fear - I think they still work very well for dogs who just want to have fun and are highly distracted by other dogs without being all stressed out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Patti, I use hot dog pieces a lot until I caught my DH eating them, lol. I cut a hot dog into a gazillion little pieces and put them in the microwave for 2 minutes at a time, 6 minutes total, maybe a little longer. Every two minutes I press on them with paper towels. After three times, they are less mushy and greasy, more like jerky. Another thing Kenya really loves is bits of hard boiled egg. Coke will do anything for CHEESE!! Neither of my dogs will do anything for kibble. Coke will ignore you period, Kenya will do what I ask because I ask it, but ignore or spit out the kibble.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfMaybe it's finally time to stop using plain ole kibble, and begin using.... lowfat hotdogs of a good quality, and cut em into TINY pieces. Greasy pockets are a small price to pay.


Absolutely - if he'll work for kibble around the house and in low distraction circumstances, then by all means use kibble. But for out and about under high distractions, you need to pull out the big guns. A class is good because you can set up controlled situations, starting at a distance that Grimm may notice another dog but is still able to think and focus on you, and work from there, gradually decreasing the distance as he learns to control himself.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Liesje, darn!! You mean DHs eat the hotdog pieces?? And I'm a newlywed... I didn't plan on this! What am I gonna do?







Besides, here in Germany, it's gonna be some weird form of bratwurst or something. I'll hunt for something without spices and very lowfat.

Cassidymom, Keefer, too? What worked best for him? Or, is the problem still at critical mass?

Pleeeeeeease let someone say they have, with work, 'solved' this problem enough to go for a normal walk past another dog?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti, just a thought, but can you get a piece of meat, cut into liitle strips or cubes, brown in a nice hot pan it a touch of Olive oil the put in a low oven 250 deg. to finish drying.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Since the strength in your hands seems to be one of the problems, have you considered using the "police leash"?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfCassidymom, Keefer, too? What worked best for him? Or, is the problem still at critical mass?
> 
> Pleeeeeeease let someone say they have, with work, 'solved' this problem enough to go for a normal walk past another dog?


I haven't done a lot of work on it, so we're not solved yet, but I did make a ton of progress in just a couple of weeks last Fall. In his case I think the problem was initially created because I just don't do a lot of leash walks. We prefer to take them out to off leash parks for play and exercise, and he's great there - BUT, he's a social butterfly, and I think all that off leash time, without being balanced by on leash 'pay attention to me' time created an expectation that he could always go up and greet other dogs if he wants too, which he usually does. He's a big ol' lovey boy who loves to give other dogs muzzle licks at the park. Not a shy bone in his body, bold and confident, he's definitely not reacting out of fear when he barks at other dogs on leash, like Cassidy did. 

I raised Dena exactly the same way, and she NEVER barks at other dogs, so I didn't see this coming. But then she's always been calmer and more laid back (unless you have a tennis ball!) than Keefer, who is the energizer bunny. He's got tons of energy and enthusiasm, and while his self control and obedience is very good in some situations, he clearly needs more work on it in other situations, such as on leash around other dogs. 

I started taking him out a couple times a week for leash walks after work, but it was 3 weeks before the time change, and I had to stop because it was too dark when I got home. The point of the walks were to work on him around other dogs, and if he can't see them it's not doing much good. I found a couple of houses near me where there's often a dog in the front yard behind a chain link fence, perfect to set up a situation to work on. Once it stops raining so much and is light enough to get out for a good walk after work I'll start up again.

But I'll tell you about a couple of successes. One night I was walking along with him close to the corner where we were to make a left turn towards home. Coming towards us on the opposite side of the street was a man on a bicycle with two dogs. There was no way to avoid passing them, so I was walking fast, hoping to get to the corner and turn before Keef spotted them and started barking. There is a small grocery store on the corner, so I planned to cut through the parking lot. I was able to get to where we could turn without him going off by distracting him, and then I heard the guy yell something. I turned around, and what I hadn't noticed earlier was that at least one of the dogs was off leash. It had run across the street, and come up behind us. We were in the middle of the parking lot, and it was standing there staring at Keef, he was standing there staring at the dog, and I'm thinking what the







am I going to do if this dog charges us. I yelled at the dog to go away, it turned and ran back to it's owner, and Keefer NEVER EVEN BARKED. I was amazed!

The last walk we took I was especially pleased. There's a house around the corner from me, and I knew there was a dog there, but hadn't seen it in awhile. As we walked towards the house, suddenly the dog runs out of nowhere at the fence, and we're _right there_, inches away on the sidewalk. I took a suggestion from Feisty Fido about dogs running with their owners being a reward, so that's what we did. Woohoo, let's GO!!!! And we ran all the way past the edge of the yard, and then I stopped at a safe distance, had him sit, and started clicking and treating him every time he looked at me. I didn't give him any commands, just waited for him to offer it. That went well, he knew the dog was there, but wasn't reacting to it at all, so I walked him a couple feet closer, put him in a sit, and marked and rewarded attention. Again, it went well, so I walked him even closer, so that we were maybe 4 or 5 feet away from the dog. Keefer stood there, leaning slightly forward as if he wanted to sniff the dog, and at first the dog was still too. But then it barked, and jumped against the fence. I had no idea what Keef would do, but *I* planned to do a rapid about face (also courtesy of FF) if necessary. He stood there, still leaning towards the dog, but not pulling hard, just with his weight shifted forward. No hackling, no barking, no lunging. And then wonder of all wonders, he turned around and looked at me! Huge praise, treat jackpot! And then later in that walk he saw 3 other dogs walking across the street and calmly watched them for a moment, and then turned to me for his treat. So we went from him barking at dogs across the street to not only NOT barking at dogs across the street, but also no reacting to a dog just a few feet away in maybe 8 walks, which was way faster than I expected. 

The funny thing is that what I was doing with him was remarkably similar to the Look At That! game in Control Unleashed. Her theory is that a dog gets even more anxious when not allowed to check out the environment, and when we demand that they ignore everything around them and only focus on us, they never get the chance to look at the trigger and decide that it's no big deal. So she likes to allow them to look at other dogs, and then offer us attention willingly rather than avoid looking at other dogs entirely. Sub-threshold of course, so you'd start at a distance where the dog notices but doesn't react to the trigger, and gradually work closer and closer.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

MomToBeauandRiley, since I dunno what a police lead is, I am gonna go Google it... curiosity gets the better of me!







You always have good ideas.

CassidyMom, YEAH, Keef!! You and he have really become a super team! I love the Feisty Fido stuff. I think I need better food reward than just the dry kibble I have.. think I will cook some chicken as suggested, and as Wisc Tiger says, dry it in the oven, too.

Big problem now is, when he is reeeeally distracted, he is unreachable by me with just the prong and my weak hands. Better food will help that I think, plus more practicing in more mildly distracting situations. But as I live in a crowded city, (imagine a German version of Sesame Street) snarlin' cavortin' canines burst fluffily from around every corner, surprising us constantly.. so, we screw up more often than we 'score' at this training game.. sigh. 


Note: Last night we did come round a corner to our building, and a terrier in all it's infuriated, spittin' glory, exploded in the automatic weaponsfire of terrier barking....... Grimm started to bark, but I suddenly somehow found my PFFUUUIIII, and he broke it off immediately, getting really lowwwwwww to the ground and looking up at me all bashful and aww shucks Mom.. then he EASILY responded to a down, a sit, and a heel... right past the spiky-furred lil 'couldda-been-a-contendah.'


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

Police lead:

http://www.rayallen.com/ramCart/cartFrame.htm










You should be able to wear this one around your body (over the shoulder)


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

"The scary part is, there are times when I can't correct him enough to get any focus at all when the sudden-dog-on-walk is close enough. Then i am helpless to give a correction Grimm can even notice-- even with the prong"

That's why you need a Halti!








Did you ever had a chance to watch people with reactive dogs, how they can just walk by others- while still having 100% control- when they use this tool? I don't quite understand why the trainers haven't conditioned Grimm to a Halti yet


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

MomToBeauandRiley-- the trainer who came to meet us yesterday tried a police lead on me. I'm not stable enough on my feet to use one, unfortunately. Grimm didn't do anything but go sniff the ground a lil, and I did a marvelous face-plant. 

Maedchen, I am totally open to a Halti. I tend to think it will either help very much ("Oh, gosh, I can't lunge, Mom? bummer.. hey, wait-- i just walked right BY that other dog! what a concept..") or, it will frustrate the heck out of Grimm, even after he has become acclimated to it at home and will escalate the problem, or do nothing to help. I am eager to try-- whatever works. (he sometimes wears a nylon muzzle for 10 mins around the house or on walks to accustom him, as all trains here now require them for big dogs). 

I don't have a trainer yet. I am trying to find a trainer here in Germany. It's harder than I expected. I need a trainer who will not use excessively harsh methods (the 2 dogsport clubs nearby still do) .. but, I need a trainer who is NOT a part of the purely pawsitive 'no corrections/negative consequences' movement that is now also in Germany as well as USA. With a strongheaded, strong-bodied, drivey workinglines Czech male, there needs to be clear corrections/consequences, even in a gentle, rewards-based, motivational, positive training program. Finding a middleground here is not as easy as in USA. Lastly, it makes no sense for me to sign on a trainer who has no access to other handlers and dogs in resolving this problem.... so... looks like I may be asking the lady who works for the tierheim if she can help. She runs a class for the aggressive dogs from the shelter. The big question, is IF she will be willing to herself handle Grimm for the first few classes until it is safe for me to handle Grimm myself alone. Fingers crossed that she is a balanced trainer, and willing and able with her time to help..


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

By the way, i saw a program where a HundeNanny came, a trainer, and she cured a reactive dog using (astoundingl) a halti at one end, a collar, and a BUTT HARNESS! Yes, indeed-- a harness that only went round the dog's hindquarters! Never seen anything like it. The Halti did nothing for the particular dog (longstockcoat GSD) but the combination of the halti and 'butt harness' LOL worked! I don't have the coordination to use that method (already having fun using 1 hand for clicker on walks, 1 hand for leash, 1 hand for treats etc LOL)... but it was a wonderful change in the dog on TV.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I recently bought an Easy-Walk harness for Reactive Risa. Not because she pulls on leash or anything. Mainly because I felt I could have better control over her when she was lunging. And I worried a bit about the toll the lunging could be taking on her neck. By using the Easy-Walk, I can control her mass better and don't have to worry about her injuring herself.








And DEFINATELY get some nummy nummy "I will do anything for those!" type of treats. Since playing with other dogs is SOOOO rewarding to Grimm, you need to find something simply to die for that he'll take instead. I know Ris will do almost anything for cheddar cheese or string cheese. You can also use meat baby food as a really high-level reward (just check the ingredients to make sure there's nothing bad for him in it, like onions). 

You might want to try doing some bonding exercises with him as well so he starts to associate you with all things good. Keep him leashed to you at all times in the house. Occasionally try some leash limits (in a low distraction area first). Let him do whatever he wants but if he gets within a foot of you, give him treats. Keep giving him treats as long as he stays right on top of you. If his attention breaks, the treats stop. Don't call him over to you in this exercise or try and get him to come back. He needs to make the conscious decision to return to you. You might want to do this in the house first so he doesn't see something really fun and pull you over. 

Also, I would _highly_ recommend doing some doggy zen with him. These exercises teach him to wait for your permission to do something, no matter how enticing. The first one involves food. You take a treat and slowly move it towards his face. If he reaches for it, pull it away and try again. When you can get it really close to his nose without him trying for it, give him permission to take it. This way he learns that patience will get him what he wants. Rushing in to take it will not.

You can also use this with other dogs (though you might want to have someone else holding the lead for this exercise). Once he understands the concept of self-control, you can take him out around other dogs. If he sees another dog and gets all bouncy and exited, it doesn't work. Once he turns and redirects his attention to you, you give him a TON of treats and praise. Have a party! Or you can decide to let him go and play with the dog. But he will learn that he needs to look to you for permission. That just because he really wants to do something doesn't mean he gets to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI need a trainer who is NOT a part of the purely pawsitive 'no corrections/negative consequences' movement that is now also in Germany as well as USA. With a strongheaded, strong-bodied, drivey workinglines Czech male, there needs to be clear corrections/consequences, even in a gentle, rewards-based, motivational, positive training program.


I'm pretty middle of the road myself, however, that doesn't mean reactive, aggressive, or simply boisterous dogs cannot be "fixed" with purely positive methods. I see it ALL the time. I'm not saying you should change your methods, just saying that there is a common misconception that certain methods only work with certain dogs or certain temperaments, which is not true.

If he were mine, I'd rather go with the "all positive" group if that's what's available than no trainer/classes at all. I think classes are super important mainly for socialization and learning to control the dog (and teaching the dog to control himself). Pretty much anyone can get their dog to run through even advanced level commands and such, but there's something about working with other people and other dogs at the same time in a variety of environments that is crucial, at least for the development of my dogs. I've also found that after a 1 hour class they are more tired from all the mental work than they are after running off leash with other dogs for 1 hour.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Liesje, just saw the pics of Coke and Kenja in the photos in your links.. how ADORABLE! Coke is another great-looking mix, like Jamie's characterful, smiley Miss Risa.







You are right-- even an all-positive class would be better than NO class, cos.. well.. cos it's a class. I will need the teacher/trainer to be my hands and hold Grimm for the first few classes though. I am hoping that can happen, so I have a chance to go! You are so right.. tired is gooood.

Jamie, does the Easy-Walk harness tighten if she lunges or pulls? I love the photo-- how many toys DOES Ris-Ris actually have???







LOL I think you are right.. the snacks have gotta override the thrill for Grimmi of makin' a "party invite hullabaloo."


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I LOVE positive classes.







I use adversives still. . .just not collar corrections with Ris.

The Easy-Walk is sort of like a martingale collar in front so that it constricts when the dog pulls. I do have a picture of that too:








As for toys, Ris has WAAAAAY more toys than she needs or uses on a regular basis. I should take a picture sometime. . .except then I would have to admit that she is super-spoiled!


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_"Maedchen, I am totally open to a Halti. I tend to think it will either help very much ("Oh, gosh, I can't lunge, Mom? bummer.. hey, wait-- i just walked right BY that other dog! what a concept..") or, it will frustrate the heck out of Grimm, even after he has become acclimated to it at home and will escalate the problem, or do nothing to help". _

Patti,
Grimm will still be able to lunge/bark. A Halti is not a muzzle. But for you to avoid the lunging you need to be pro-acitve by re-directing his head toward you when another dog approaches (Grimm takes interest), even before he reacts. While he looks at you (through the force of the Halti) you reward the behavior. You can get him in a sit/stay etc. to keep him busy while the other dog passes, or keep on moving in different directions- whatever works best. Lure him to keep looking at you with your voice or even treats if that helps and enforce with the Halti as neccessary. With my GSD I walked him in a big S loop to distract him from other dogs and focus on me, or I would even turn around occasionally. Key is, that the dog doesn't know what to expect- and he will pay more attention to you. 
If possible walk around upcoming dogs in a big circle and the better Grimm becomes, the more you can decrease the distance to the other dog (the bigger the distance the less the arousal). Always reward when he behaves well and do fun parts after the training so he has something to look forward to. Keep the training sessions (walks) in the beginning short.


_I"I am trying to find a trainer here in Germany. It's harder than I expected. I need a trainer who will not use excessively harsh methods (the 2 dogsport clubs nearby still do) .. but, I need a trainer who is NOT a part of the purely pawsitive 'no corrections/negative consequences' movement that is now also in Germany as well as USA."_

But even positive trainers use punishment -> by not rewarding! It can be very effective if the dog learns that he loses what he was looking forward to,- even more so than physical punishment.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Maedchen is right. Removal of something the dog wants is negative punishment. Collar corrections are positive punishment.

I use clicker training with Ris but I still use adversives. Verbal ones like "eh eh" and "Ahhht!" to get her to stop doing something. But still, most of her behaviors are rooted in positive methods.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I thought these GSDs were supposed to be aloof! Flash has the same problem except he gets so excited initially that he hackles. He does this with all dogs, even those he knows and loves to play with. Unfortunately we all know what hackles mean in the dog world and if it's a strange dog it gets them riled up in a bad way.









When it's doggy playtime with my MIL's dog, I have to set aside time to specifically work on this issue. It may take us 20 minutes to actually get from the car to inside the fence but we slowly work our way there just like you'd walk in the opposite direction a dog is pulling when you're teaching it to walk on leash. All the while I am rewarding him for any attention he puts on me rather than MILs dog. We're getting there. Slowly.

The problem for me is finding a stable dog other than dogs he usually plays with to use in our training. The closest I've found is to go to our local Petsmart during one of their training classes during the week. Going during the week is crucial because on the weekends it's just too busy in there with owners that are not paying attention to their dogs. When I go during the store classes I can at least know the store will be relatively empty except for the class participants and the owners' complete attention is on their dogs. I reward, reward, reward like crazy with very high value treats for looking at me (in fact I just cooked up some beef heart to be used as treats tonight!) and I keep a brisk pace. He does not have a chance to stop and focus on another dog. This is where I have seen the most improvement. 

He is beginning to look at me when he sees another dog rather than focusing on the other dog. I'm also seeing this in the way he is behaving when the neighbor's dog starts a fence battle. He's starting to ignore it. In time we will slow down both the pace at which I walk and the frequency at which I dole out the treats while getting closer and closer to the other dogs.

And not once have I corrected him for this behavior. And to quote his breeder when talking about his litter, "...these puppies will not be soft to corrections." I understand your physical limitations add a challenging dimension to Grimm's training but this is just something to think about and hopefully give you some ideas.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Oh, and another thing I make sure to do is to exercise him before heading out to specifically work on this issue. Speaking of which, time to hit the trails and creek!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Any excersise, any short trip out to pee-- it is all in a world crammed full of other dogs here in this dense city. I usually can *not* see the other dog (i'm legally blind). When I can, I plan to work on this very much. My plan is to:

Get a Halti (who knows? It might help!)
Buy some dried, crumbly, stinky liver cubes
Continue to try putting the Feisty Fido program into practice with these tools.
... and do my best here with Grimm.

Today Grimm saw a dog and violently/enthusiasticly yanked me off my feet, dragged me very fast, flat on my back, for several yards down the sidewalk. I got a slight concussion. Saw stars, vision sparkles, retinal flashes for a half hour. Have loss of memory, severe headache, and lots of dry heaves/vomiting. Saw regular doc and eye doc. Relative rest reccomended for 3 days.

I will be trying hard to find a trainer to break the habit of Grimm starting a sudden canine meet-n-greet party. Yes, I myself will be doing work with Grimm myself, daily-- see above 'Feisty Fido' plan. BUT... I need professional help by someone with physical stability. 

Sigh.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Oh my god are you ok? Is Grimm a real drivey boy? I haven't had this problem with Jero yet. But the other owner didn't do any kind of training with him so now it is up to me. Wow there has to be someone out there that can help you, So what you are saying that the boy kind of looses his mind when seeing other dogs.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Actually, to be truthful, Grimm is not a very drivey dog.. medium drives, medium energy-- perfect for me. Jero seems a bit more high drive than his brother Grimm. Yep, when Grimm sees other dogs, thr thrill of a play-party makes him wanna get a party started. Some tension in his demeanor. Zero true aggression, he just has never had anything stopping him from the lunging. Me holding a prong is like a 3 yr old holding a prong-- litterally, there's nothing to STOP him, so this has become a recreational habit. ('why CAN'T I raise a hullaballoo and go play with the other dog?) I have been trying to work with him using food rewards for the 'Watch' command first without distractions, then when we see a dog... or doing some sudden, fancy heelwork when we see another dog, followed by a game, food, etc. It *is* working-- but not all the time. He has 'successes' of being able to do what HE wants... because we live in a doggy-crowded area and I am legally blind, cannot always see the dog before he does... and basicly, he has learned that SOMETIMES, he gets to have a wild time pulling/barking at the other dog.

Thanks for your concern Chuck. I think I will be OK. No teeth or bones broken. But yup, need someone other than me to help with this.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

Well, two new trainers to telephone tomorrow. Hoping one is the right fit for Grimm and the situation.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

Yikes, Patti. I hope you're okay. And I really hope you're able to find someone who can help you with this. Definately not an easy situation to be in.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

OMG!!! Hope you are OK.
How about reducing Grimm's field/acuity of vision with some glasses (doggles with added tinting?) temporarily (until he is better trained)? They use those "things" on horses to reduce their field of view when they are in a stressful environment so that they don't freak out. I know this is unconventional, but he may have to rely on you more. Trying to be creative here. 
I have a foster with fear issues and sometimes I cover his eyes when I see him getting ready to freak out and it helps.
Grimm will get better as he matures.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

Thanks for the concern, Jamie and MomToBeauandRiley. I think Grimm will get better as he matures-- provided he learns this charging at other dogs is not an option. Someone OTHER than me needs to very effectively change his mind, for my safety. 

I am reading articles on accimating gradually a dog to a Halti, and.. am thinking of Grimm CHARGING at another dog (that I will be unable to see before he does) full-tilt, in a Halti. I am unsure how safe a Halti will be, even though my *intention* is to be magickally able to see these dogs and then gently turn his head towards a food reward. Sounds super in theory. I will still buy the Halti, buy the better training treats, and do my Feisty Fido excersises, because I believe in them.

Grimm just has never had anyone put ANY brakes on his charging-at-dogs habit before. So, hoping to find a good trainer, before I am hurt worse. If he had dragged me, skidding along on my back, into traffic instead of on the sidewalk, I wouldn't be writing this now.


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

I had a similar experience at Beau and Riley's first Schutzhund training.
They were 7 mo and got all wound up in the car on the 2-hour trip. I wanted to get them out one-by-one, but both managed to get out. It was raining all night and I parked near a slope. The ground was slippery and I slipped as they pulled on me. They dragged me 10-15 feet until the friction of me being dragged on the concrete road stopped us - they were still pulling but we were no longer moving. I was covered with mud and blood - it certainly was an embarrassing appearance, but it was obvious they needed training. Everybody was staring at us and they just told me "don't let them go". Several dogs there would probably have gladly eaten the crazy puppies.


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## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

OH MY Gosh! Yikes! Just *reading* this makes me all jittery.









I am a tiny person with a fondness for BIG dogs and mostly they outweigh me by at least 10 pounds.







I also live in a very urban area with lots of foot traffic and dogs aplenty. I found that the Easy Leader helped me a lot to maintain control while the dogs learned to walk politely. Even after they learn I still use the Easy Leader and then hold the leash across my body in both hands that way I am able to distribute the weight.

Go easy on the liver treats though, can cause tummy upsets. 

Good Luck with finding a trainer. 

Off to read FF.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

I talked with our trainer tonite about your problems with Grimm to see what advice she had. Figured she would probably have better ideas than I do!

She recommended getting him on either an Easy-Walk Harness or a Gentle Leader/Halti to give you better control. I think she preferred the Gentler Leader/Halti in this case because you can use it to redirect his focus better since you control his head. 

She also thought it would be best if you can get someone who can hold onto him while you work with him on these issues. I know that's difficult to do with your recent move. Even though I know you're not 100% sold on positive training, it might be worth a shot. I wasn't so keen on it at first either. But I'm SO happy I chose this method for Risa. I honestly know we would not be where we are today using other methods.

You can also try searching http://www.apdt.com for trainers in your area. I found these on my search: http://apdt.com/po/ts/intl/resultsadv.as...lse&Rally=False (hopefully the link works). But my German geography is pretty poor so I'm not sure any are close by.

Again, good luck!


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## CherryCola (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

I'm having the same problem! Cherry isn't at all aggressive but on walks she barks at people and dogs constantly out of excitement. I'm currently using a Gentle Leader/Halti to handle her better. It's helped a considerable amount but I think we still have a way to go







I also have my Dad with me when we walk since I'm not very strong, I don't want to risk having her run into traffic, ect.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

Camper once gave me a concussion. Over a year ago. We were walking down on a slippery grassy slope. He suddenly smelled a wonderful smell and hung a quick u-turn up the hill in pursuit of it. And I, uh, went down. Hard. The back of my head slammed into the ground like a big pumpkin dropped from a few stories high. Bam!









Our boys... Sigh. 

Glad to hear you're ok.









Like Moei, after this incident, I was trained to hold my leash in both hands in front of me, slightly below my belly button, where my center of gravity is. I could brace against his rapidly increasing weight/strength that way. It helped a lot. I don't need to walk & hold the leash that way anymore, but I did, for a long time 

(BTW, this means, I ditched my habit of carrying around my wallet and cell phone -- I never carried around a purse -- or anything tying up my hands/arms. I still use a very lightweight rucksack that I wear on both shoulders so both my arms & hands are always free. If I go shopping and buy a lot of stuff, I use a bigger backpack or use a shopping cart in a store. A friend who has the same situation uses a roller bag -- a piece of luggage -- so that if she has a situation with her dog, she can ditch her bag, leaving it standing there, and deal with just the dog. Full hands and arms -- even just one arm -- make it hard for us to manage our dogs, because we're worried about dropping our goods. I'm sure you know this, but I see a fair amount of women with young SDs, and they often have handbags over their arms and shopping bags in their hands. So I thought I'd mention it ). 

Also Patti, I have a GL, Halti, Sensation harness...all sort of training stuff (and I use none of it







) . If you want to try any of this stuff out, just say the word!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

Thank you so very much for the encouragement, 3K9Mom-- I reeeeally need it right now!







We got ahold of a highly reccomended trainer today who lives a few towns away. He was reccomended by the lady at the animal shelter. This makes me think maybe he is a positive methods trainer, but probably uses corrections, too. He comes without charge to meet with us and Grimm here at home in about 2 weeks. I have to hang on, litterally, until then. I HOPE we like him, his methods, and feel we can trust him. He offers a send-away training, which I am normally highly leery







of those in general. But, the situation is critical for my safety.







He has experience with aggressive dogs (which Grimm is not, I know, but.. the lunging and barking to "get a party started" are dramatic). I think he also runs a class in my town (Yay!!)







for a dog training group once a week. I think he works privately with me after the 3-week send-away training course, where I have then private lessons with both he and Grimm. I would then ask to attend the group classes-- with HIM initially holding Grimm's lead, if need be. If Grimm's issues are manageable by then, I can attend the classes handling Grimm myself........... and basicly go every week, forever.







(to that class, or whatever other interesting class I find in the area) 

So much hinges on the success of the trainer doing the initial work with Grimm. With most people, they CAN whip out the treats, Halti, clicker-- and SEE the other dogs approaching in time to practice the FF stuff. They CAN hold their own dog with their own hands, and remain standing safely. I hate the idea of sending Grimm away, even for a few weeks. The situation has however become serious.

It really helps to hear how you have handled things, Lori, and everyone else, too. I appreciate the encouragement a lot! And yep, I have backpacks for shopping and running errands, I learned with my last Service Dog.. gotta have one hand free for the lead, and the other free to open doors, push shopping cart, use the ATM, etc. Backpacks rock!


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

How about a backpack with water bottles for Grimm?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

3K9Mom, that is great advice on the leash thing. If you arm or arms are extended the power goes all to the dog.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*

Normally, walking Grimm is like walking a really zesty, kinda distractable baby Paleolithic Wooly Rhinocerus. He stays in place by my side (mostly) very nicely, does really well on walks.. but can sense his controlled power there. Can also actually sense when he is *trying* hard to control himself and stay in place. I can't see him always (I have vision only in front of me a lil), but I hear the loud 'piff-paff-piff-paff' sound of his collossal, blubbery pawpads trottin' on the sidewalk. 

I have only a 4 ft leather lead, I find this is much easier than a 6ft lead. 3K9Mom has the right idea, I need to keep it close to me, without causing collar pressure. 

Suddenly, out of the fog (my bad vision), Grimm sees another dog, and ZZZOOOOOM. I become airborne. Frequent Flyer. Today's the day for trip to store for Halti, snacks, and will work hard with Grimm...... is 2 weeks until the next trainer we can see will come to be eval'd by us for suitability.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*



> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger3K9Mom, that is great advice on the leash thing. If you arm or arms are extended the power goes all to the dog.


Val, my small stature female trainer explained that men (with their higher centers of gravity) can hold a leash higher and since they have arm/chest strength, often hold it in one arm. But most women have incredible leg strength (often more then men) and we have lower centers of gravity. (Any woman who's tried rock climbing knows this.) So why are we walking our dogs like we're men? It makes perfect sense. The first couple times I walked Camper like that and he pulled hard, I was able to use MY strength to to counter it, instead of sort of tipping over, and he was actually kind of shocked. (I held the leash with both hand, elbows out, pulled toward my body backward, and lo and behold, the pup wasn't as strong as he thought.)

Now, my pup knows I can counter his pulling/lunging, so I can hold the leash any old way I want, because he respects my ability to counter his force. Once I had his respect, the rest came easily. So he doesn't try anymore. 

It was a major breakthrough for us.


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## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*



> Originally Posted By: BrightelfNormally, walking Grimm is like walking a really zesty, kinda distractable baby Paleolithic Wooly Rhinocerus.


























I cannot stop laughing to read to rest of this thread! <wiping tears of mirth>


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## moei (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> Val, my small stature female trainer explained that men (with their higher centers of gravity) can hold a leash higher and since they have arm/chest strength, often hold it in one arm. But most women have incredible leg strength (often more then men) and we have lower centers of gravity. (*Any woman who's tried rock climbing knows this.*)


Rock climbing that is where I got my idea of holding with both hands and near my belly button.
My DH would always correct me, and obstinate that I am I would continue what I was comfortable with. He, He, He, now I can tell him, see there is consensus and validation from a trainer! So there!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

*Re: Concussion/Grimm's training issue*



> Originally Posted By: moei
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> ...


So true!!

I always teach my people to hold the leash at waist level, but I use horse riding as comparision, specially when it come to not keep it permanently tensed but also not completely loose. I also teach to keep the hands with the thumbs in the upside, that way you have the strength of all the forearm muscles. Many people tend to raise the arm backwards and crash against their own wrist articulations.


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