# Should Aggressive Dogs Be Helped?



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I wanted some opinions on whether or not dogs in shelters who are not overly friendly or have aggressive tendacies should automatically be put down? I am not talking about dogs who are so damaged that they clearly can't be helped. There are some dogs however who are what I call 'diamonds in the ruff'. They just need to be taken out of the shelter environment in order to shine. I have pulled some dogs who had fear aggressive issues or became aggressive if they were in the shelter for a long time. Those dogs turned out to be some of the best dogs I have worked with. On the other hand, these dogs are taking space from dogs that don't have issues,and not too many people are willing or have the qualifications to help dogs like that. 
Not to mention liability issues.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gharrissc said:


> I wanted some opinions on whether or not dogs in shelters who are not overly friendly or have aggressive tendacies should automatically be put down? On the other hand, these dogs are taking space from dogs that don't have issues,and not too many people are willing or have the qualifications to help dogs like that.
> Not to mention liability issues.


My puppy Ivan was on the kill list. He was cage agressive and fearful of people. I'm no expert or trainer but in the time I've had him he has turned into an outgoing loving dog. Love and socialization turned him around. I am so glad I got him before they put him down. He is an awesome little guy. :wub:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'll keep it short...yes if they show signs of potential


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

dogs act differnt when they are in a shelter...its not a great place to be..they are scared..most have been dumped there by their owners and they dont know what is going on. ive rescued many that were labled fear aggressive in the shelter..but were totally differnt dogs when they got in my home with other dogs and a normal life. every dog is differnt..when i would do temp checks i would walk them as far away from the shelter as i could and give them time to open up


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Depends on the individual. 

If it's just the wiring in the dog's head that's a little off, then no. That dog will never be happy, and neither will its owners. 

If it's something that can be corrected with training, then absolutely. If there's hope for a dog to live happily, and the owners to live happily with that dog, then by all means, YES.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Gharrissc said:


> I wanted some opinions on whether or not dogs in shelters who are not overly friendly or have aggressive tendacies should automatically be put down?


In a perfect world ... no.

In our current society with it's litigious mentality, lack of enough 'regular' foster homes, below-average level of basic dog ownership skills and the lack of common sense in the majority of the human population ... unfortunately, yes.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Ermm... switch the yes and nos on my post above. Haven't slept - brain isn't working. lol Hopefully you all know what I meant, though....


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> In a perfect world ... no.
> 
> In our current society with it's litigious mentality, lack of enough 'regular' foster homes, below-average level of basic dog ownership skills and the lack of common sense in the majority of the human population ... unfortunately, yes.


Exactly what I was going to say.

However, if an experienced and knowledgable handler steps up to work with such a dog, an exception could be made.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

don't know the right answer to that question but am afraid the sheer number of dogs in need is going to dictate the answer in many situations. nothing is fair to all these dogs who find themselves in situations that would terrify the bejezus out of any animal that was conscious. terribly difficult situation all the way 'round.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Thinking about this question and Woolf. If he had landed with someone who wasn't willing to put in the time, he would have been a walking time bomb. If that person had him and suddenly decided he didn't fit their lifestyle and wasn't willing to change their lifestyle for him, he couldn't be rehomed.

Many dogs with issues make it into the shelter and rescue system and are adopted. By people _thinking_ they know the issues of the dog, without realizing that once the dog is comfortable with them, more issues may crop up. Suddenly the new owner is faced with what they perceive as new aggression and decide they can't handle it. The dog is given back to the shelter/rescue, which further damages the dog.

There really isn't a good answer. If the perspective owners are fully aware of the possibilities, the time required and that there may be some tough days ahead, yes the dogs with issues should be helped. If it is just going to be swinging door for the dog, it isn't fair for the dog to be in that position.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> In a perfect world ... no.
> 
> In our current society with it's litigious mentality, lack of enough 'regular' foster homes, below-average level of basic dog ownership skills and the lack of common sense in the majority of the human population ... unfortunately, yes.


Good answer.
You cannot trust or know what that dog is going to do once it leaves your care, and you cannot dream up in your wildest dreams how the owners will manage to let the dog down.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> In a perfect world ... no.
> 
> In our current society with it's litigious mentality, lack of enough 'regular' foster homes, below-average level of basic dog ownership skills and the lack of common sense in the majority of the human population ... unfortunately, yes.


Yes! Wonderful points. I would also ad that not all "aggression" is equal. Our breed does not do well in kennel situations, and being stressed can drop their threshold a great deal. So if I see a GSD fence fighting with dogs being led past their kennel, or I see a GSD barking and/or growling at people as they pass by the kennel, I always give the dog the benefit of the doubt. I want to see how the dog settles in a foster home before labeling it as "aggressive".

However, seeing a dog who is already in a home showing signs of human aggression, I would totally pass on that dog. And I will never take in as a foster, or adopt out, a dog with a bite history. 
Sheilah


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

I wish I could find a GSD that is naturally aggressive up for adoption and this thread makes me wonder.

As I posted here before, I moved from the City of Philadelphia to the sticks of Tennessee. Because of a improper subdivision, I live on the main road and share the same address with houses that are down a unnamed dirt road. Because of this, I have had numerous strangers come to my house despite 4 keep out signs and 2 _beware of dog_ sign. One _beware of dog_ sign is on my ft gate that I just put up and I still have had 2 people go past it.

As a watch dog Elly May is fair and I don't have to worry about anyone coming thru the front door. Under any other condition, I'm not sure how she would react if the hammer needs to be put down. I would really like to have a really agressive GSD as my first line of defense.

For the last year or so, I have been looking at all kinds of websites to adopt a male GSD. (not necessarily aggressive) All the GSD that were up are all listed as 'sweet.' As I said it makes me wonder where the ones being rehomed because they are aggressive, are going.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I wish I could find a GSD that is naturally aggressive up for adoption and this thread makes me wonder.


What do you mean by "naturally aggressive"? A man-biter? 
To me, sounds like a huge liability.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> What do you mean by "naturally aggressive"?


A GSD who will bite anyone who is in his space except me and my GF. 

Now lets keep this thread on track:



The Packman said:


> For the last year or so, I have been looking at all kinds of websites to adopt a male GSD. (not necessarily aggressive) All the GSD that were up are all listed as 'sweet.' As I said it makes me wonder where the ones being rehomed because they are aggressive, are going.


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## NWHeather (Oct 29, 2010)

The Packman said:


> I wish I could find a GSD that is naturally aggressive up for adoption and this thread makes me wonder.
> 
> As I posted here before, I moved from the City of Philadelphia to the sticks of Tennessee. Because of a improper subdivision, I live on the main road and share the same address with houses that are down a unnamed dirt road. Because of this, I have had numerous strangers come to my house despite 4 keep out signs and 2 _beware of dog_ sign. One _beware of dog_ sign is on my ft gate that I just put up and I still have had 2 people go past it.
> 
> ...


 I would srongly caution you about looking for a "really agressive" dog. A dog that is outwardly aggressive is likely to be unpredictable & could even turn on you. You do not want an unstable dog. You could put yourself at risk for liability. 

Your better off finding a stable temperment dog, & bonding with it. IMHO. 
There's no way to know how any dog will react. You need to be prepared to defend yourself.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

NWHeather is right.
A GSD is not supposed to bite anyone in "it's territory", that is _not_ the correct breed temperament. 
If you want a man-biter you'd be better off getting a Mastiff - some are naturally that aggressive. 
Or a Livestock Guardian dog. 

So yes, "sweet" would describe the GSDs you'd want in your home.


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## NWHeather (Oct 29, 2010)

Gharrissc said:


> I wanted some opinions on whether or not dogs in shelters who are not overly friendly or have aggressive tendacies should automatically be put down? I am not talking about dogs who are so damaged that they clearly can't be helped. There are some dogs however who are what I call 'diamonds in the ruff'. They just need to be taken out of the shelter environment in order to shine. I have pulled some dogs who had fear aggressive issues or became aggressive if they were in the shelter for a long time. Those dogs turned out to be some of the best dogs I have worked with. On the other hand, these dogs are taking space from dogs that don't have issues,and not too many people are willing or have the qualifications to help dogs like that.
> Not to mention liability issues.


No, I don't think they should automatically be put down, as mentioned, there could be other factors causing the behavior. 

I think there are dogs that don't really have issues, but under some stressful circumstances, may act out agressively or "not overly friendly".
I have a soft spot for the ones who need extra love.

In a heartbeat, I would take in a dog that needed a little extra time, or extra love, to "bring the diamond out".


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I'll keep it short...yes if they show signs of potential


This and we need more qualified people to be able to see and work with that potential. Many dogs wind up in shelters, labeled aggressive or crazy because they were too much dog for their previous home or were mis treated. 
Here is a program called GAP or "Gifted Animal Placement" that trains people with identify and work with such .
I would love to see more programs like this and have e-mailed them for info on training.

Gifted Animal Placement


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

The Packman said:


> For the last year or so, I have been looking at all kinds of websites to adopt a male GSD. (not necessarily aggressive) All the GSD that were up are all listed as 'sweet.' As I said it makes me wonder where the ones being rehomed because they are aggressive, are going.


Check out rescueme.org. I saw this one post a little while ago. 

Compatibility:Not Good w/ Other Dogs, Not Good w/ Cats, Good w/ Adults (Not Kids) Personality:Very High Energy, Very Dominant Health:Needs to be Neutered, Vaccinations Current 









*Shooter comes from a Police K9 breeder, he is high drive and has the ability and potential to be a working dog. He requires someone who is dominant and not afraid of high energy working dogs. He is good with some dogs when he wants to be. Not good with little kids. Need to find him a home quick he is not compatible with my family.*
*







*

Animal Location:








*Lyon County* *Fernley, NV **MAP IT!*








Contact:*Daniel Eckstrom 3057102814* *EMAIL*


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

GAP looks like a great program.They need something like that here in my city. If only they would be open to it.




Debbieg said:


> This and we need more qualified people to be able to see and work with that potential. Many dogs wind up in shelters, labeled aggressive or crazy because they were too much dog for their previous home or were mis treated.
> Here is a program called GAP or "Gifted Animal Placement" that trains people with identify and work with such .
> I would love to see more programs like this and have e-mailed them for info on training.
> 
> Gifted Animal Placement


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

I find myself in this situation today with a dog very much like Shooter in the ad posted earlier and need HELP.
First some background. I adopted a shepherd 8 years ago and she has been the best dog I ever had. Those years have been spent doing obedience and agility training with her, and including her in every aspect of family life. I homeschooled her to pass her Canine Good Citizen Test. She is now in the late stages of DM and I have to put her down next week. It is the worst thing ever to have to do.

In March of this year with this on my mind I adopted a 2 yr old shepherd from a local shelter. He was roaming a nearby neighborhood when he was picked up.
He is gorgeous and purebred. No tags, no chip, intact and nobody claimed him. The shelter neutered him and I adopted him. He contracted pneumonia a few days later from the shelter. I paid hundreds of dollars in vet care to nurse him thru it.
Its been 4 months. I have spent a lot of time training and exercising him, including a few basic sessions with a professional trainer with mondo ring experience and belgian shepherds. I have brought him a long way, but I am about at the end of my ability.

Here's my problem. He bullies other dogs and will nip strangers if they get in "his" zone. He's part rogue, part opportunist, part bully. He's high energy, driven to run, but he lacks useful focus and is always "wired" when outside. Its like he's always looking desperately for something but hasn't found it yet.
There are no places to run off lead here so I started taking him to a dog park to try to socialize him and give him an outlet. He runs and runs and runs and it briefly calms him down. I muzzled him the first 2 times but he seemed good enough to remove it. I was so happy at the progress. The problem is he runs up to dogs in the dog park and barks in their face, and he runs them down and nips at their back legs. Then just as quickly he will run off to the next exciting thing to chase. He will crisscross a field repeatedly at a full run. I police him constantly while there but he is off lead. So now he has angered several other dog owners in the park. They have these calm docile tubby dogs and here comes 90lbs of wired muscle flying up their backsides. So I am struggling with what to do, stick it out and risk a life of turmoil and possible lawsuit, or try to find him a new home.
Please help, I need straight advice for the best thing I can do for him. Photo attached.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

StephenV said:


> I find myself in this situation today with a dog very much like Shooter in the ad posted earlier and need HELP.
> First some background. I adopted a shepherd 8 years ago and she has been the best dog I ever had. Those years have been spent doing obedience and agility training with her, and including her in every aspect of family life. I homeschooled her to pass her Canine Good Citizen Test. She is now in the late stages of DM and I have to put her down next week. It is the worst thing ever to have to do.
> 
> In March of this year with this on my mind I adopted a 2 yr old shepherd from a local shelter. He was roaming a nearby neighborhood when he was picked up.
> ...


Please start your own thread so it gets more attention than buried in this thread. 
Offhand I'd say stop going to dog parks.


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

ok, will do


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> ...A GSD is not supposed to bite anyone in "it's territory", that is not the correct breed temperament.





The Packman said:


> ...I have had numerous strangers come to my house despite 4 keep out signs and 2 _beware of dog_ sign. One _beware of dog_ sign is on my 4 ft gate that I just put up and I still have had 2 people go past it.


Thanks for your response msvette, I'm guessing you don't have a bunch of unwanted nutty strangers comming to your house. Anyhow...I feel that it's your opinion and not a fact that a GSD is not suppose to bite anyone in his / her territory and I care to disagree with you. 

I'm not sure if your familiar with _The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training_ but it a well respect book on the subject. I would like to read to you a passage taken from the very beginning of the book on the subject of _Attack Trained vrs Natural Protector. '__You may decide that, since you are without acquaintances who would ever call on you, the dog most useful to you would be the one who uses force on everyone who enters his premises.'_

In the event, I can find a aggressive male up for adoption, I have already made arrangements with a GSD breeder / trainer to help work out all problems @ $40 a hour, so I am not taking this lightly. As for buying another other breed to keep people out of my yard (like a Pit Bull or Massy)...I love and want a GSD. I sit at night just looking at pictures of them, like some guys look at porno !


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

The Packman said:


> Thanks for your response msvette, I'm guessing you don't have a bunch of unwanted nutty strangers comming to your house. Anyhow...I feel that it's your opinion and not a fact that a GSD is not suppose to bite anyone in his / her territory and I care to disagree with you.
> 
> I'm not sure if your familiar with _The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training_ but it a well respect book on the subject. I would like to read to you a passage taken from the very beginning of the book on the subject of _Attack Trained vrs Natural Protector. '__You may decide that, since you are without acquaintances who would ever call on you, the dog most useful to you would be the one who uses force on everyone who enters his premises.'_
> 
> In the event, I can find a aggressive male up for adoption, I have already made arrangements with a GSD breeder / trainer to help work out all problems @ $40 a hour, so I am not taking this lightly. As for buying another other breed to keep people out of my yard (like a Pit Bull or Massy)...I love and want a GSD. I sit at night just looking at pictures of them, like some guys look at porno !


While you are in the process of setting up for your dog, you may want to get an excellent attorney on retainer as well.. just saying...


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

Twyla said:


> While you are in the process of setting up for your dog, you may want to get an excellent attorney on retainer as well.. just saying...


What are you trying to irk me or something ? What is your address...I want come see you...you won't mind if I show up in the middle of the night, will ya ?

Did you miss this:



The Packman said:


> Because of this,
> 
> (edit to add- a improper subdivison of land that causes me to share the same address with houses down a dirt road that you can not see from the main road)
> 
> I have had numerous strangers come to my house despite 4 keep out signs and 2 _beware of dog_ sign. One _beware of dog_ sign is on my 4 ft gate that I just put up and I still have had 2 people go past it.


I just spent about $2,000 putting up a fence to keep people I don't know away from my front door and that still doesn't stop them. Did you ever hear of a home invasion robbery ? They act like they're looking for someone they know.

Or this ?



The Packman said:


> In the event, I can find a aggressive male up for adoption, I have already made arrangements with a GSD breeder / trainer to help work out all problems @ $40 a hour, so I am not taking this lightly.


These people are lucky, I don't attack them with a baseball bat. I should be calling the Police on these trespassers except my County has 5 Rollers out on the road to cover 275 sq miles. And I don't want to stretch their resources over this. I'm new here and the few friends I have, know to call me before they come over.



NWHeather said:


> I would strongly caution you about looking for a "really aggressive" dog. A dog that is outwardly aggressive is likely to be unpredictable & could even turn on you. You do not want an unstable dog. You could put yourself at risk for liability.
> 
> Your better off finding a stable temperament dog, & bonding with it. IMHO.
> There's no way to know how any dog will react. You need to be prepared to defend yourself.


NW...thank you for your opinion. (no disrespect meant) As I have wrote, I have spoke with a breeder / trainer about this. (unpredictability / unstable) If I can find the right GSD and save him from being put down, I have enough confidence in myself and the trainer to over come those problems and I'm willing to take the risk.

I'm not sure if you saw my post to a thread where I listed several links about Police K9s attacking their handlers and citizens in unprovoked innocents. Along with it, I posted that our dogs are animals and like most people, are never 100% predictable. Again, I'm willing to take the chance.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have a few that would bite an uninvited guest. I don't see it as a liability. 

I currently have a foster dog (female) who was passed off to me after the animal shelter deemed her unadoptable due to reactive aggression. Wonderful dog, good with my daughter, clever, fun. But will aggress toward people she does not know. It is, to me, a simple management issue.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The Packman said:


> I'm not sure if your familiar with _The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training_ but it a well respect book on the subject. I would like to read to you a passage taken from the very beginning of the book on the subject of _Attack Trained vrs Natural Protector. '__You may decide that, since you are without acquaintances who would ever call on you, the dog most useful to you would be the one who uses force on everyone who enters his premises.'_


That method is outdated and very controversial. I have a copy of the book that I refer to occasionally. If you know enough about training to know which of his methods are useful and to stay away from those which are dangerous or harmful to the dogs, use it. Otherwise, find a good trainer who can help you get what you want. The quote you posted is irresponsible, in my opinion. I don't care where you live, a dog isn't a weapon. I don't say this to insult you, but to inform. It doesn't sound like you have enough dog training experience to properly train or handle the type of dog you say you want. Please, if you insist on this route, use a trainer, don't try to do it yourself from a book.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's nice to have a dog who would aggress towards someone "uninvited". However we don't "invite" the mail carrier or UPS guy over, do we?
A dog that can discern would be 100 x more useful than a dog who bites everyone uninvited.

FYI we adopted GSDs originally after having uninvited guests show up (assume much, Packman??). My husband is a paramedic so away from home 24 hrs. or more at a time. 
My GSD would have defended me and the kids. 
But mostly he was a great deter rant and that's all I really wanted. 
I love my life and my home too much to lose it to a lawsuit. 

I would also encourage you to seek a correctly temperamented dog and train it, rather than a psycho man-biter who will injure someone who's on your property legally. 

Some dogs can be purchased already protection trained. That's what I'd go for if it was me. 

Oh...and about 2yrs. ago now I had the opportunity to visit some rescued pets who'd been improperly trained. They were loose cannons who had aggression issues and bit indiscriminately. Not exactly a dog I'd want to have around.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> That method is outdated and very controversial. I have a copy of the book that I refer to occasionally. If you know enough about training to know which of his methods are useful and to stay away from those which are dangerous or harmful to the dogs, use it. Otherwise, find a good trainer who can help you get what you want. The quote you posted is irresponsible, in my opinion. I don't care where you live, a dog isn't a weapon. I don't say this to insult you, but to inform. It doesn't sound like you have enough dog training experience to properly train or handle the type of dog you say you want. Please, if you insist on this route, use a trainer, don't try to do it yourself from a book.


Luv thank you for expressing your opinion on my desire to adopt a aggressive GSD. (and I'm not insulted)

#1: I disagree with you in that _a K9 is not a weapon_...it's kind of like saying a tool box is not a tool. A tool is anything that can make working easier, a weapon is anything that can be use to defend yourself. And I would rather stand in front of a judge for having my dog tear up a trespasser than me shooting one.

As far as The Koehler Method...there is alot of things in there that I do not agree with, BUT the fact remains the guy is a authority on dog training and I agree with his thinking on that territory violation matter. I bought the book just to try and educate myself a little more so I don't make the same mistakes I made with Elly May, when I get my next GAD. It maybe outdated but the last time I looked, it was going for $ 40 on ebay.

I'm not sure you got to read my post but I wrote that I have already talked things over with a GSD breeder / trainer about helping me with my next GSD and I do have some experience in organized _personal protection_ training. 

Again...if I have the chance to adopt an aggressive GSD...I'll jump on it. It bothers me that only 'sweet' ones get a second chance in life.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

The Packman said:


> What are you trying to irk me or something ? What is your address...I want come see you...you won't mind if I show up in the middle of the night, will ya ?


Irk? Na, just a statement of fact  If you plan on getting a known aggressive dog for protection, have a lawyer available.

If you want to show up in the middle of the night, go ahead, you may hear an alert bark.. but that may be the last heard. I don't rely on my dog to protect me, I protect myself 

On the other hand, if you choose to rescue an aggressive dog, work with and train it to become a good companion that is _managed_, and _not_ rely on it for protection; I say go for it. I have one of those myself. His presence is the deterrent, I prefer to protect myself


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can't find a GSD that's protective through a GSD rescue? Keep looking, branch out to rescues in large cities. Aggression is one of the reasons people give up their dogs. Most people don't understand how their dogs became aggressive and can't handle it when it flares up. I didn't realize you are working with a trainer and have experience in personal protection training. Had you said you were looking for a dog that would offer personal protection, I wouldn't have reacted the same way I did when you said you want an aggressive dog. The reason you got some surprised or negative reactions is the way you presented this initially. Now that I know exactly what you are looking for and what you are willing to do to get that, it makes sense in a different way. 

We are like Msvette, we initially got our first GSD after a home robbery and I have to agree, I feel safer with a GSD in the house (we've now owned many of them, plus I grew up with them). Koehler based his methods on logical consequences, which is an excellent way to train a dog. He uses hanging and other controversial methods that would now be considered animal cruelty. As long as you understand which of his methods are good and which to stay away from, I also agree it can be very useful. Just make sure that the dog doesn't have such a hair trigger that he'll go after you or anyone else.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Just make sure that the dog doesn't have such a hair trigger that he'll go after you or anyone else.


This is the problem in getting a "naturally aggressive dog", most the time these animals are fearful and that's why they seem aggressive. 

Would you rather have a fearful dog that puts on a good show but runs away if worse comes to worst, or even bites (fight or flight = fear response), or would you rather have a stable dog you can train to protect on command?


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

The Packman said:


> Again...if I have the chance to adopt an aggressive GSD...I'll jump on it. It bothers me that only 'sweet' ones get a second chance in life.





Twyla said:


> Irk? Na, just a statement of fact  If you plan on getting a known aggressive dog for protection, have a lawyer available.


Are you folks only reading half my post or something ? You know someone with alot of K9 knowledge told me _An aggressive dog of any breed must be managed, if you manage the dog, the liability will take care of itself._ And I believe that statement to be true.



Twyla said:


> If you want to show up in the middle of the night, go ahead, you may hear an alert bark.. but that may be the last heard. I don't rely on my dog to protect me, I protect myself.


I'm not sure I follow you...why would you need to protect yourself from me for, I'm coming over just to talk with you. So you would (I'm assuming) shoot me rather than depend on your K9s to protect you and since I have no ill intent how would your lawyer explain that to the police / judge. I just wanted to explain to you how I feel with strange uninvited guess showing up at my door. 

I did 7 years in the Army so I'm well trained to use a firearm. I'm pretty sure I made it clear that shooting someone is something, I would avoid at all cost. And years ago I worked part time in a gunshop and heard it all from the _gun nuts. (they live in a dream world) _I would only shoot someone if my or my GFs life was in immediate danger. If I drew my weapon and the intruder could get away without harming anyone...I would allow it and let the police handle the situation, since that is what they are trained for.



Twyla said:


> On the other hand, if you choose to rescue an aggressive dog, work with and train it to become a good companion that is _managed_, and _not_ rely on it for protection; I say go for it. I have one of those myself. His presence is the deterrent, I prefer to protect myself.


OK...the reason I want a aggressive K9 is to act as a deterrent and a first line of defense. If strangers come to my house and see that psychotic K9 doing whirlybirds trying to get at them, I have increased the odds they will not come back or try anything in the first time. They will not get smart with me when I tell them..._you are trespassing, now get the F%^$ out of here and don't come back !_ I don't want to be disturbed in my home and I don't want to be put into a postion where I have to draw a weapon. If you know anything about guns, you don't draw it to scare people. When you draw you must be totaly ready to drop the hammer and live with what comes after that...which is something I'd like to avoid !


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I can tell from your posts you've never owned a dog that has to be managed. It's not as simple as you make it sound. I've owned GSDs from breeders with stable temperaments that made very good watch dogs. Right now, all our GSDs are rescues and one must always be managed. As Msvette said, dogs that show that kind of aggression are often fearful, and can be very unpredictable. I was sure I knew after a few years how he would react in any circumstance and I was wrong. The only thing you can be absolutely certain about with that type of temperament is that you can never know for sure how they will react in a given situation. He's made me a better owner, but there are situations I have to avoid at all costs. I'm determined my next dog will be confident rather than fearful. A confident dog will know when to bark, when to back off, and can still be a watch dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Here is a good article on all different types of aggression. They say an aggressive dog should never be around children, which is important to remember. A dog of the type you want, if I understand you correctly, could attack and kill a child.

ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist - Aggression in Dogs


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

LuvShepherds said:


> ....They say an aggressive dog should never be around children, which is important to remember. A dog of the type you want, if I understand you correctly, could attack and kill a child....


I know I should probably leave this alone but just can't. The above statements shows a true misunderstanding of correct GSD temperament, IMO.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You maybe want to start a thread in the aggression section - because that would really help - what is aggression, what do we expect from GSDs in terms of aggression (maybe in comparison to other dogs, maybe not)??? I think it would help anyway! Maybe not!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Gagsd, I'm not talking about a typical GSD, only the type of behavior he's looking for. Please read the other posts here, so you understand what I meant.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> I can tell from your posts you've never owned a dog that has to be managed. It's not as simple as you make it sound. I've owned GSDs from breeders with stable temperaments that made very good watch dogs. Right now, all our GSDs are rescues and one must always be managed. As Msvette said, dogs that show that kind of aggression are often fearful, and can be very unpredictable. I was sure I knew after a few years how he would react in any circumstance and I was wrong. The only thing you can be absolutely certain about with that type of temperament is that you can never know for sure how they will react in a given situation. He's made me a better owner, but there are situations I have to avoid at all costs. I'm determined my next dog will be confident rather than fearful. A confident dog will know when to bark, when to back off, and can still be a watch dog.


Exactly.
Packer - the kind of dog you want is (trust us on this one) a fearful dog. No GSD with a good temperament would act like a psycho "whirly bird" or however you describe it.

And again, there's breeds with actual "natural aggression" that will be a man-stopper, but the kind of _German Shepherd_ you are describing is usually put to sleep before it's ever adopted out, because people who know dogs, know fearful dogs and fear biters are the worst kind of dog to try to rehab.

One of the best "man stopper" dogs I've ever seen on our property was a Chocolate Lab x Chessie. He would not let anyone in our yard. People believed him when he barked and he went 100lbs. in excellent condition and not overweight.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Op- to answer your question more clearly... I just pulled a dog from a shelter who will bite/nip a stranger. Particularly when approached inappropriately, as many normal people do. She is fine with myself, my daughter and family she has been introduced to. I am working to solidify her SIT command. When we are approached by someone, she is to sit. No lunging, barking, growling and certainly no biting. 
My job as her owner/handler is to make sure John Q. does not walk into her space.
At some point she may be comfortable enough with strangers to allow handling, but not yet.
This is a great dog who would have been euthanized. Whoever adopts her will be lucky to have her. It is just a matter of matching the dog with the correct adopter.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GAGSD, are you going to allow her to go to a home where she's expected to bite intruders??
Or someone who works with her ongoing to make sure she doesn't bite in her new home?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I believe dogs with aggression should be managed so that no person receives an unwarranted bite.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I believe so too...but I have less tolerance for aggression in rescue dogs. There's just too many out there who aren't biters, we won't accept a known biter and if a bite occurs here, that is, we identify a biter, it usually doesn't make it out, depending on a dozen or more factors...including, can I find a home capable of management of this dog so nobody is bitten.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

The Packman said:


> Are you folks only reading half my post or something ? You know someone with alot of K9 knowledge told me _An aggressive dog of any breed must be managed, if you manage the dog, the liability will take care of itself._ And I believe that statement to be true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, not only 1/2 reading your posts. 

What I am seeing is you are wanting a GSD for protection. Can't blame you, a stable GSD that is trained for protection would be perfect in your situation. My problem is how you are wanting to go about it. I am all for rescuing the FA dog, but for the reason you want, for protection, they just aren't suited for it. A FA dog may show protective instincts, but without the stability, they can not be trusted to obey commands and follow training when under stress. 

I strongly urge you to talk with more then the trainer you are in contact with now, do some indepth research on FA dogs before making this move.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think he ought to visit Schutzhund clubs and view what he perceives as aggression, and meet those dogs when not in work mode.

I guarantee you - unless the club doesn't care what kinds of dogs are working there - he won't find a fearful "bite anyone" type dog there!


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I think he ought to visit Schutzhund clubs and view what he perceives as aggression, and meet those dogs when not in work mode.
> 
> I guarantee you - unless the club doesn't care what kinds of dogs are working there - he won't find a fearful "bite anyone" type dog there!


msvette...what did you say about assume ? No wait, I haven't been to a Schutzhund club and I don't care to go to one. I am not some newbie, I have spent plenty of time at two differant K9 training clubs where the focus is personal protection to help prepare myself for my next GSD. (Elly May does not have the 'as solid nerves as I would like' to put her thru the training.)

How about I'll take you there and let you stick you hand thru one of there cages and see what happens. When they bite your hand off are you going to say _bad dog_ or I shouldn't have violated there space ?

I will be back with a master post, so thats all for now ?


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Schutzhund, personal protection, and police dog trainers only train dogs with stable temperaments. Hopefully, the trainer can assist you in finding an assertive dog that has the capability of being protection trained.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

Mr & Mrs Kirkley said:


> Schutzhund, personal protection, and police dog trainers only train dogs with stable temperaments. Hopefully, the trainer can assist you in finding an assertive dog that has the capability of being protection trained.


"One hundred men will test today but only three win the Green Beret."


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I worked alongside K9 officers in my job as ACO. I know what type of dog they are and they aren't fear biters.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

*The Packman* 
Hey IMHO I think the poster is desperate honestly I dont blame you for wanting an aggressive dog. It may not be the most responsible but if my dogs dont know you and your in my yard or house and im not there they will corner you and if you proceed to move forward they bite thats how they are. Never evr had a problem with a dog biting. I have had one of my current dogs bite a man. He was in my garage he saw my dog and tried to run. she grabbed his forearm he fell and that was that. Homeless guy looking for a place to sleep. Someone I know and isnt mad at my dog. The thing is (someone said this already) a dog with stress induced aggression is one thing but if the wiring aint right you wont be able to manage the dog. If I were in your situation however, I would probably be looking to do the same thing. Your In BFE if you need a dog to be a weapon its a dang weapon. If somone says its not there lying to themselves we mad em the way they are for many reasons including as weapons thats why we call the personal protection. 
As to the OP we cant save em all and unfourtunately there the first to go.. I love the more aggression and IMHO aggression is diffrent then viscious. My male is aggressive but he is not a killer.

ITS YOUR LIFE IF YOUR DOG TURNS ON YOU THEN ALL YOU COULD DO IS -


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Gharrissc said:


> I wanted some opinions on whether or not dogs in shelters who are not overly friendly or have aggressive tendacies should automatically be put down? I am not talking about dogs who are so damaged that they clearly can't be helped. There are some dogs however who are what I call 'diamonds in the ruff'. They just need to be taken out of the shelter environment in order to shine. I have pulled some dogs who had fear aggressive issues or became aggressive if they were in the shelter for a long time. Those dogs turned out to be some of the best dogs I have worked with. On the other hand, these dogs are taking space from dogs that don't have issues,and not too many people are willing or have the qualifications to help dogs like that.
> Not to mention liability issues.


Rescue is something very close to my heart.

Don't judge a dog by how it acts in a shelter setting. 

A dog that is fearful and stressed should be placed with a understanding foster home. Ideally. 

Yet sadly there are far too many dogs in shelters. I worked at a SPCA. The "hard to adopt" dogs are the first to be put down when room is needed. A hard to adopt dog can be one that is old, shy, fearful, pit bull, or sick. I fell in love with 2 fantastic pure bred cattle dogs years ago. They were put down when not picked up because they had diarrhea. No other reason then that. I was So MAD I really thought they had a chance! Should dogs be put down just because they have diarrhea?


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