# Conflict: Animal treatment



## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

In a news article speaking about Michael Vick for the AP, HSUS Chief Wayne Pacelle said:



> America loves its pets, but also condones hunting animals, raising them for meat and using them in experiments and tests, Pacelle noted. "You get a lot of mixed signals from our society about this.


I wonder how true this is.

I was on a site for Dogos, a large breed dog mainly used for hunting wild boar. There were numerous pictures of dogs that hunted this wild animals, many times killing the boar before the hunter good get to them for the lethal shot. The animal was taunted and tormented by the dogs. 

However, before getting all weepy about the boar, sometimes the dogs would get hurt, often requiring the hunter to stitch and bind wounds or dispatch the untreatable and dying dog.

Even here on this site, there are graphic pictures of dogs feeding on carcasses or threads about raising rabbits for prey feeding (albeit dead ones).

Are we a conflicted society? Should we be?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't believe we are in conflict unless you lean towards the philosphy of PETAphiles, H$U$, et al. We're carnivores who eat meat that's hopefully raised and butchered humanely or hunted legally. Hunting has taken place since early man lived in caves and probably even before that. Dogs originally were brought into a symbiotic relationship with man for purposes of hunting. It's been going on for eons!


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Where to start......the HSUS would love for all of us to eat letuce and grass only because they want NO animals harmed for any reason. This is what I meant in my last thread by they have their hands way too deep in too many piles. They are anti-everything but I would bet my life on it that there are members there that eat chicken, veal, steaks or whatever. Or have no problem getting in their BMW with the heated leather seats. Oh and lets not forget the PETA people either, Pamela Anderson is their Godess, she won't wear fir but will make a good buck doing porn? I don't get it maybe it's me?
As for the "hog dogs", I have seen DVD'S with dogs chasing and holding the pigs as well before the hunters come and kill the hog. Yes sometimes the dogs get messed up and even killed but I guess if it's legal in that area you can't stop them. I wouldn't hunt this way nor do I agree with it but like I said if it's legal you have to let them do it. On the bright side, at least they have a job to do, it's not a pretty job but a job none the less.


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## Stogey (Jun 29, 2010)

I've hunted for as long as I can remember. My Dad would take me out in the woods with his Beagle Pack and hunt rabbits and squirrels when I was barely old enough to sight down the barrel. Whatever was shot that day was dinner that evening. We were not a well off family, so hunting supplemented our table as it were. I've carried on that same tradition with my son, though it was never for any lack of food, but what we kill we do eat. 
I wouldn't feel too bad for the wild boar, they are prolific breeders ! Sows can have 10 or more piglets at a time. They've gotten so bad in the Texas farmlands that some farmers resort to hiring helicopters and shooters to take out the over and abundance of animals. Most of the meat is donated to food pantries and rest homes but the old sows and boars are not worth the effort to clean and are left in the field for the buzzards and coyotes. You can say what you want about that practice but if the herds of pigs were not controlled you'd be payin 10 bucks for a can of beans ...


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Regardless of HSUS or PETA's point of view, I do believe we're a conflicted society. 


People extend their own form of animal rights to animals that are in closest proximity. For most people in United States, that's cats and dogs. Because we're not in regular contact with our food source (chicken, cows, pigs etc.) we simply don't care as much for the welfare of those animals. 

Puppy mills are seen as horrendous acts of cruelty in our society, hundreds of dogs crammed together, living in excrement. Cows are raised much the same way in feed lots, however because most people don't have a close relationship to cattle, it's not viewed as wrong or cruel.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Also would like to point out, I don't have an issue with wild boar (I believe they're actually feral pigs?) hunts, with or without dogs, they're an introduced species and can be pretty damaging to native species of plants and wildlife.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Well, I'm not endorsing a philosophy for HSUS or PETA. What I'm getting at is we are brought up in a certain way or in a certain culture and we see or learned that animals are made to serve us in one fashion or another.

Incidently, the Dogo as a breed are fascinating to me as I watched them coordinate and hunt in a pack. And are they ever powerful. So are the pigs. To watch them in the ebb and flow of combat is well...conflicting. You feel for each, but they are doing what they were programmed to do.

Dogs are fascinating creatures, and intelligent too. To see them in action is in a sense, spiritual.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Greydusk said:


> .
> 
> Puppy mills are seen as horrendous acts of cruelty in our society, hundreds of dogs crammed together, living in excrement. Cows are raised much the same way in feed lots, however because most people don't have a close relationship to cattle, it's not viewed as wrong or cruel.


 
The feed lot is the last stop for meat raised cattle. They begin (normal practices) in a pasture and fed well as any profit recognized by the rancher is by the pound.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Greydusk said:


> Regardless of HSUS or PETA's point of view, I do believe we're a conflicted society.
> 
> 
> People extend their own form of animal rights to animals that are in closest proximity. For most people in United States, that's cats and dogs. Because we're not in regular contact with our food source (chicken, cows, pigs etc.) we simply don't care as much for the welfare of those animals.
> ...


Excellent post. I agree and I think we're drawn and more sensitive to animals that are closest to us.

I used to pickup meat from the slaughterhouses and toured the kill floor. I seen the look in the eyes of those animals herded into the kill chute. 

Here's the rub, they weren't dead yet. Stunned. Most people don't know that, death don't come until they are hoisted and well their throats...

Nuff said.

Conflicted, feel for the cow, but I dang well enjoy steak!


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

Lilie said:


> The feed lot is the last stop for meat raised cattle. They begin (normal practices) in a pasture and fed well as any profit recognized by the rancher is by the pound.


Yes it is a finishing process for ranchers, but I was talking more of the industrial style of cattle production.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I think our attitudes about animals have been mostly unchanged for the past couple thousand years. This is a great book on the topic.
_Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy_ by:Matthew Scully.

Amazon.com: Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy (9780312319731): Matthew Scully: Books

A review:
_This is one of the best books ever written on the subject of animal welfare. Scully, a journalist and former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, chooses to fight on his own ground, and he rightly argues that the important thing is not insisting upon equal "rights" for animals but in treating them with a modicum of respect and dignity. His book is as close as a philosophy can come to representing "animal rights" goals while not proclaiming animals to be equal in status to humans, as do classic works like Peter Singer's Animal Liberation. As a journalist, Scully personally investigated several major animal industries, including those of hunting, whaling, and factory farming. He asks penetrating questions and shows the logical and political inconsistencies used to defend cruel industries. Although some may balk at the author's sarcasm, it adds an emotional element to his unequaled depth of insight. Scully has a remarkable grasp of the issues and a unique perspective on our societal treatment of animals. Every library should purchase this book. Highly recommended._

I think his book completely and eloquently sums up my personal feelings on the subject. It really is an eye-opening book on the subject.


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## Kelly's Buddy (Nov 15, 2010)

Good_Karma said:


> I think our attitudes about animals have been mostly unchanged for the past couple thousand years. This is a great book on the topic.
> _Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy_ by:Matthew Scully.
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you. They even have it for Kindle. I've downloaded a sample.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Very good thread Kelly's Buddy. (warning this is an important topic to me so the ole soap box is coming out for a minute)

Companion animals vs livestock how they are treated and should be treated is very different. The laws applying to livestock are a lot 'looser' then that of companion animals in most states/communities. I've been involved in trying to help some severly neglected horses and there just isn't as much support and compassion, even for horses.

I grew up on a small family farm, we raised chickens and cattle, some for personal consumption and some for sale. My father always taught us kids that all animals should be treated with respect. We didn't make pets of the cattle but they had plenty of good hay, grass and fresh water. If they became ill we got the vet out. When the day came for them to go to the butcher they were loaded into small cattle trailers (not crammed into a semitrailer) and taken to the local butcher. They were butchered humanely and quickly and my dad made sure of that. 

Now-a-days I eat meat still, but small quantities from a local butcher who sells certified grass fed, hormone and antibiotic free humanely processed cattle. It's more pricey but it's worth it knowing I'm doing the right thing by a small family farmer AND the cattle. Once we went back to eating naturally raised beef we couldn't believe how much better it tastes. We call the regular super market stuff - poison meat now. We also only buy and eat naturally raised hormone free chicken. It's like the food we used to eat on our farm. 

btw feed lots are very stressful on cattle, cattle did not evolve eating heavy grains. The cramped muddy/dirty conditions, the unnatural diet causes imbalances in their gut and infections. They get pumped full of meds and antibiotics and are processed in enmasse at slaughter 'factories.' No wonder we have so many meat recalls you probably have 100 different cows (some of which may be 4 D) blended up in that hamburger. 

I know that there will always be cruelty and dichotomies in how we treat the animals we raise for companions and for food....but you know it doesn't take that big of a sacrafice to try to do the right thing where we can.

Here's a good web site for finding naturally humanely raised meat, poultry and eggs:

Eat Wild - Find Your State


(puts soapbox away  )



Kelly's Buddy said:


> Excellent post. I agree and I think we're drawn and more sensitive to animals that are closest to us.
> 
> I used to pickup meat from the slaughterhouses and toured the kill floor. I seen the look in the eyes of those animals herded into the kill chute.
> 
> ...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

My husband works in a slaughter house, peoples ideas on how it really goes is really screwed compared to the truth. Kelly, just curious as to what type of slaughter house you visited? I know where my husband works they make sure the pig is dead via shocked to death or bullet to the head (yes, it is legal) before they start doing anything to it.

I could tell you people some things that might make you stop eating pork.

I think that what most of western society views as acceptable vs unacceptable is a little messed up IMO.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I have raised chickens, ducks and rabbits and killed and butchered said chickens, ducks and rabbits for both my dogs and us humans.

I have no problem with animals being raised for food as long as they are raised well.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> I think that what most of western society views as acceptable vs unacceptable is a little messed up IMO.


I find it curious that you seem indignant about how animals are treated but have a family member that works there.

"The way humans are treated in these camps are horrible. I know because my husband is a guard there."


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

rvadog said:


> I find it curious that you seem indignant about how animals are treated but have a family member that works there.
> 
> "The way humans are treated in these camps are horrible. I know because my husband is a guard there."


Actually, I never gave my views on how I see it personally so, I really don't see where you get that from. You seems to be reading more into it than there is there.

First..my husband has a job, a job is a job and since we have kids he can't just up and quit, more so with the way jobs are right now.

Again, I really don't see how you get what you get from my post, I really don't. 

I have no problem with eating meat, I have no problem with slaughter houses, personally the way I see it so long as an animal is slaughtered as humanely as possible then I have no trouble with having animals as food that others probably would scoff a

ETA: My own personal view is that its messed up considering some people see it as horrible to eat a dog but no problems packing in that cow, so long as the connection is kept separate no one sees a problem with it. But people don't realize that there are those who see nothing wrong with eating dogs and those who believe is wrong to eat cow. So yeah, the ideas of most people in western society are a little...er, whats the word I'm looking for..hmm.........


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## overtgabby (Aug 2, 2010)

I know a couple of people who hunt wild (feral) boars, and the dogs they use are pitbull types. Some even have kevlar vests for them. It can be grewsome, and dangerous for the dogs, but I would much prefer to see these dogs used for population control on an extremely damaging non-native species, than for dog fighting, which is completely useless and serves absolutly no purpose that I can see.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We live in a society of mostly urban and suburban communities. Then there is farm land. There are some forrests and wilderness reserves, but mostly we do not have nature in the raw where we are, at least not in the US. 

If there were mountain lions or panthers or even black bears where your children stood to wait for the bus, I do not know how many of us would be ok with that. 

So nature is pretty much hemmed in and the major predators that once roamed this country are few and far between. Herd animals are a totally different story, deer are EVERYWHERE. And there are few natural predators if any in most locations. 

So what happens if you do not allow hunting? The deer populate the area to the extent that they will starve to death in the winter. Nature is far more cruel than a hunter's bullet or arrow. 

The best conservationists are hunters. Hunters respect the wildlife, and only harvest what it is lawful for them to do. Yes, there are nutters who will shoot anything that moves and kill that which is not in season. Like anything else a few bad apples give a very negative perception. But hunting is a sport, a good physical activity, and necessary in our society. 

There are better and worse ways to hunt. Guns, and bows are ok, hunting with dogs, especially bird dogs, is fine. I do not know that I like the idea of hunting with hounds where the hounds actually are involved in the kill. But I would not prevent someone from doing that with their dogs. 

If you have a pet, feeding live critters to a pet dog, well that I am totally against. I think that is asking for trouble. Raising rabbits for dog food, I really do not see a problem with that. People raise mice for snakes, and crickets for other nasty reptillian things. To each their own.

I like meat. They need to be slaughtered before they are cooked. I am ok with that, so long as no one is dragging out the process. In nature it is not a pretty thing either. There are prey animals and predators. Both undergo famines. Starving is not pretty. Being eaten by a lion is not pretty either. 

I think humans are animals too. They are a member of the animal kingdom. They have a right to kill and eat, as well as wolves or lions or bears.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> We live in a society of mostly urban and suburban communities. Then there is farm land. There are some forrests and wilderness reserves, but mostly we do not have nature in the raw where we are, at least not in the US.
> 
> If there were mountain lions or panthers or even black bears where your children stood to wait for the bus, I do not know how many of us would be ok with that.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Denali Girl said:


> :thumbup::thumbup:


Ditto


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

The way I took the meaning of the thread was on the way animals are treated, domestic vs livestock vs wild, and the mentality that some people have one treating them. What is bad and inhumane for one is ok for the other.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> The way I took the meaning of the thread was on the way animals are treated, domestic vs livestock vs wild, and the mentality that some people have one treating them. What is bad and inhumane for one is ok for the other.


I agree, I think the point of this thread was to illustrate how different species are treated. Some people will call animal control if they see a dog tied to tree in the pouring rain, while those same people will continue driving if they saw a horse or a cow in the same condition. 

It saddens me that companion animals and livestock are treated so differently. 

There is an overpopulation of deer, I don't have an issue with them being hunted. There is also an overpopulation of dogs. You don't see them being turned loose and being hunted. The point is there is vast differences in the way animals are treated according to their species.


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