# Just started raw and having some issues...



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

It's been a week of Stella being on raw. I am using premade raw.

Observations I have made....

1.-She is shedding like crazy!!!!! Some of her hair is coming out in clumps. She always was a shedder but it has reached new levels. 
2.-She has started itching like crazy too. She has always been an itchy girl but it seemed to have calmed down a bit up until this week. She has had chicken this week, so maybe she is sensitive to that? Switched her today to turkey. Hope it makes a difference. On kibble she was on salmon. 
3.-She seems soooooo hungry. Had a couple of days of throwing up bile but not the last few. 
4.-Her coat feels sooooooo soft. Can that actually happen that fast?
5.-Best poop ever! She has always had poop that was on the softer side but it has firmed right up. 

So, can any of the above be due to the raw in such a short span of time????


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## Flutter (Aug 2, 2013)

It could be she's having an issue with chicken. I'd switch to a more different protein like pork/boar/beef/lamb instead of turkey. Be aware that if she has an issue with chicken then it can take several weeks for that reaction to disappear. 

The shedding could be some form of detox or could be related to the increase itching/a reaction to the chicken. 

The poop change is definitely due to the raw. Poop from raw fed dogs is a million times better than kibble fed dogs. Raw food is so much more digestible than kibble so their poop is much less offensive


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

she could be "house cleaning" , dogs initially will shed and can be dandruffy -- coat is being replaced as is the skin --
there is a detox period .

What else is in the premade raw -- sometimes the "vegetables" are not the best , or appropriate . 

Hungry , you may have to adjust the amounts you are giving .


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

There are some veggies in the mix. Didn't think about that.

As to chicken allergy- she has had boiled chicken and rice in the past when she was not feeling well....don't really recall an increase in her itchiness. Just funny how she has gotten sooooo itchy and "sheddy" this week. 

I don't know if I can afford some of the other meats on a regular basis. Chicken and turkey are the most economical....


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

When you say premade, do you mean foods like BARF BARF Australia - Biologically Appropriate Raw Food ?

If so, why don't you purchase the pork version, as pork is an excellent protein that has really good results with allergies and a level of EFAs that assist with coat and skin conditions. 

If not premade, then see if you can buy some human grade pork and mix in with some ground lamb and give a turkey neck as bone.

Also I have recently discovered coconut oil and have been using for a month now, I have noticed both Harry and Lola are not scratching as much - something to consider


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Premade raw-everything is already ground up and ready to eat.

I will have to look into pork.

I started coconut oil several weeks ago. I did notice less itching. I overlooked it this past week, I was so focused on the raw....started again today though. Maybe that was what helped! 

I just want to do the right thing for my girl. I know she has some environmental allergies. Never tested for food. 

I am just concerned that her hair is coming out in clumps all of a sudden. Although her coat and skin look and feel nice....

And her ear is bothering her. But that started before the raw. It seemed to improve and now is bothering her again.... Hmmmmm....maybe the coconut was really helping??!111


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Yes I think coconut oil is a super food, I'd get her back on this.


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## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Just my opinion here, others may not agree, but here it is..... Dogs only need meat, bone and organ. Fruits and veggies are not properly or naturally digested by dogs and can cause inflammatory reactions in the gut that eventually manifest themselves through the skin and other ways. These inflammations never really resolve as long as the fruits and veggies are fed. Then certain proteins may irritate the already inflamed area and then the dogs is labeled as "allergic" to that protein. No carnivore is truly "allergic" to any meat source. I recommend feeding only meat bone and organ, Letting the gut heal and the inflamed areas calm down and I think you will have one happy pup!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

cci058 said:


> Just my opinion here, others may not agree, but here it is..... Dogs only need meat, bone and organ. Fruits and veggies are not properly or naturally digested by dogs and can cause inflammatory reactions in the gut that eventually manifest themselves through the skin and other ways. These inflammations never really resolve as long as the fruits and veggies are fed. Then certain proteins may irritate the already inflamed area and then the dogs is labeled as "allergic" to that protein. No carnivore is truly "allergic" to any meat source. I recommend feeding only meat bone and organ, Letting the gut heal and the inflamed areas calm down and I think you will have one happy pup!



Interesting......sounds easy enough for those with problems to give a try.

SuperG


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## Flutter (Aug 2, 2013)

cci058 said:


> No carnivore is truly "allergic" to any meat source.


Do you have any reputable references for this?


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## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

I refer to the Animal Council of Animal Naturopathy; however, there are hundreds of other credible sources. The concept is based on pure science. Dogs are carnivores, they were made to eat meat bone and organs. Maybe a little, very little, greens from the stomach of their prey. Naturally, they are not allergic to any meat. What happens to them, and to people too, is that all of the chemicals, toxins and synthetic additives that are in are household products, pesticides, lawn chemicals, medications, shampoos, etc and any processed food or other item, causes inflammatory responses in our systems. This affects are immune systems, which actually starts in the gut. Then we desperately start to treat the symptoms and not the trigger or actual problem. Its a vicious circle. I removed everything from our environment/food that I could that contained unnecessary additives, toxins or chemicals and it changed our lives/health, as well as our dog's life. I am not a freak, but have learned first hand the dangers in some of the products we all know and love and usually use everyday. We eat fresh food and use all natural products and have never been healthier. We felt a difference within days! So in a nutshell, all I am suggesting is to go back to the basics. Feed foods that mimic the dogs ancestral diet. Cut out the artificial processed things and let their body heal. I will add one more thing.... when switching to this type of feeding, the dog will go thru a detox period and may poop a lot or have diarrhea. This is also mistaken for "being unable to handle raw." Its just the detox period and will pass.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Interesting. I will have to try the raw that just contains meat/no veggies. 

Switched Stella to turkey and the itching is starting to wane. But not completely gone.
Her poop was never an issue since the switch. I now refer to her poop as "poodle poop". There just isn't much of it! :laugh:

We are having an issue with how much she wants to eat! It seems like she is constantly hungry. I can't afford to feed her more than what she is already getting. What can I give her in addition to her premade raw meals?


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## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

I am probably not the best person to answer that because we only feed meat bone and organ. All treats are freeze dried meats and organs too. If she is already getting an appropriate amount based on her weight, try feeding her smaller portions but more often. With raw, they quickly absorb the nutrients and burn the calories. Recreational bones or deer antlers may keep her busy too.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

My dogs get raw eggs, raw goat milk, cooked sweet potatoes, fruits and sometimes brown rice in addition to their raw meals. When I've too much veggies in the yard, like kale, I'll blend them and add to their raw meat.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

cci058 said:


> Just my opinion here, others may not agree, but here it is..... Dogs only need meat, bone and organ. Fruits and veggies are not properly or naturally digested by dogs and can cause inflammatory reactions in the gut that eventually manifest themselves through the skin and other ways. These inflammations never really resolve as long as the fruits and veggies are fed. Then certain proteins may irritate the already inflamed area and then the dogs is labeled as "allergic" to that protein.* No carnivore is truly "allergic" to any meat source.* I recommend feeding only meat bone and organ, Letting the gut heal and the inflamed areas calm down and I think you will have one happy pup!


 The bold portion is likely true. However, many dogs _*do have*_ *food sensitivities/intolerences, *which can cause an immune response, irritate the gut and cause skin problems. 

Antibody Production to Food

I can say from personal experience my dog can not have pork. It causes her to have a rash and severe itching within hours of consumption. Itching so bad she breaks the skin and bleeds. And, yes we know it is the pork as it has happened each time she was given pork (only twice). It took more than a week for her to recover from symptoms each time.

Chicken as a protein is a complex problem. Most super market chicken that is very inexpensive (ie: walmart leg quarters 10 lb. bag for .59 lb.) has been adulterated with a "flavor enhancing solution" that contains a lot of salt and other unknown ingredients. These "flavor enhancers may be the issue, not the protein. Be sure to read the label on chicken products to be sure there are no additives. Ideally, Organic free range chicken would be the way to go. Unless you have access to a chicken farmer, buying this in a super market is likely not affordable for most. I know it's not for me. 
Again, your dog could very well have a food *intolerance* to chicken. 

Pre-made raw diets are another whole category. Any ingredient could be cause for intolerance the same as kibble. 

Much of the food in the supply chain today has no resemblance to the same foods fifty years ago. There is so much artificial, toxic crap in our lives it's no wonder we and our dogs are have such issues. 

Then you have environmental allergies that may very well be complicating things.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Stella definitely has environmental allergies...she was tested and mold was on the list. Also beech trees but that wouldn't be an issue now.

I am new to raw so the premade has made it a bit easier to switch. I hope to one day go further with raw but for now.....

She definitely needs some kind of a bone or something to chew. I am trying to stay away from chicken at the moment as that may have made her itch more. Or it could have been the beef marrow bones? Or maybe neither..but now that she hasn't had any, she seems less itchy. Her mother had a problem with beef.

I have tried deer antlers but they don't seem to interest her. She used to love bully sticks but they don't last long. She needs to have some kind of bone for her to chew on...that might alleviate some of her hunger...it is pathetic. She sits by the refrigerator and cries. And is trying to figure out how to open it.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

katdog5911 said:


> Stella definitely has environmental allergies...she was tested and mold was on the list. Also beech trees but that wouldn't be an issue now.
> 
> I am new to raw so the premade has made it a bit easier to switch. I hope to one day go further with raw but for now.....
> 
> ...


 How much does Stella weigh? What premade raw are you feeding and how much? She may just need more food if she is very active. Is she holding her weight? 
Finding bones to chew on might be hard if she has a problem with beef. I use beef necks, beef ribs and beef marrow bones for chewing. Bully sticks are good but, as you know, don't last long with heavy chewers. 
Have you tried a nylabone?


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Stella weighs about 85 lbs but could stand to lose a few....I'd say 75-80 lbs would be ideal for her. She is eating Victory Food, about 2 lbs a day. Plus she will get a stuffed marrow bone several times a day. 

She isn't very active...
Typical day-20 minutes of fetch in the AM. 45 minute walk in the woods on a long line or leash walk. Another 30 minute walk before I go to work. And maybe some more fetch when I get home from work. Several times a week we go play with my son's English Mastiff for about 20 minutes. Of course training is scattered throughout the day. That is average....sometimes more, sometimes less. So not very active.

She has no interest in nylabones. She would prefer to chew on a piece of wood. 

Not sure if beef is an issue. I will be adding some beef back in at some point. What about a frozen turkey neck? Or do they not last long???


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

So, if Stella were eating prey model raw for an 80lb dog (ideal weight) eating 2% of her weight should be getting 1.6 lbs. per day. At 3% she would be getting 2.4 lbs. per day. Prey model raw has more meat than most pre-mades as it doesn't have any fruits/veggies added that many pre-mades have. 

Actually, what you describe for exercise seem fairly active (not a couch potato). So she may be hungry. 

That said, if she needs to lose some weight then both you and Stella may just have to work through the "hungries" for a bit like all dieters... LOL!

Turkey is a poultry. If you think she has issue with chicken you may want to avoid turkey. She could probably eat through a frozen turkey neck in 5 minutes or less. I like to use raw beef rib bones. They have a little meat. Good amount of cartilage for chewing and the bone can't really be chewed completely so they keep my girl busy for a good while. Usually around 45-60 min. 

I see on Victory Foods web site they have Lamb bones. I would give those a try. I would love to get my hands on lamb bones. They look like they sell a very nice premade raw product and they offer both with and without veggies.


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## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Springbrz said:


> The bold portion is likely true. However, many dogs _*do have*_ *food sensitivities/intolerences, *which can cause an immune response, irritate the gut and cause skin problems.
> 
> Antibody Production to Food
> 
> ...


This actually supports my point.... We add so many things to our foods and those additives are what cause the issues for both people and dogs. It isn't the protein itself that causes the inflammatory response. It is the GMO grains, wheat, corn and soy that we are feeding the chickens or the turkeys or pigs that are eventually fed to our beloved furbabies. Other than grass fed beef, the cows are fed processed grains and are shot up with steroids and hormones to make them bulk up faster and weigh more so they make more $ on them. Those things are then consumed by us and our pets. Those are the things causing the responses. While affordable, the chicken from Walmart comes from disgusting processing mills where the chickens never see the outside of a cage and never even walk. They eat processed grains, etc and their conditions are beyond inhumane. If I don't eat those things I certainly won't feed them to my dog. Search for a farmer who raises pastured chickens or turkeys and feeds non GMO forage to the pigs. Grass fed beef is also the way to go. Its food in it original state, the way it was meant to be.

For environmental allergies, I recommend colostrum. It enhances the immune system and fights allergies. Amazon.com: Symbiotics Colostrum Plus, 240 Capsules: Health & Personal Care


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Will definitely look into the lamb bones too. I bought some knuckle bones from a butcher today and Stella is happily chewing away. I will see how her itching goes as this is a beef bone. They also sell turkey necks and will cut it to size but I see that this is a meal food not a recreational bone.... 

If she ate a turkey neck, would that be a meal? Would I add something else to it? The premade is pretty pricey and I would like to be able to supplement it with some DIY (for lack of a better term) raw feeding.

Wow, I am glad we are not couch potatoes! It seemed that a lot of people do a whole lot more. I am going to try herding with Stella in the spring. Now that will definitely take her out of couch potato zone!

I really hate the hungry phase of losing weight....sigh.


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