# PPD's and families, Q for breeders, trainers



## Nelly

I was discussing with another experienced PPD trainer, and in his experience he believes that it is extremely rare for a dog who will protect for real as a PPD to be safe in a family environment. 
1) one reason is the level of sharpness desired in a PPD-one example; kids friends come over to and kids play roughly together and dog isn't able to distinguish if the fight is real or not
2) that often dogs with the temperament to be a PPD may have a dominant tempermant and it is too much of a risk of the dog even if the rank is sorted with the handler, that it may challenge other family members.

I'm not discounting either of these valid points I was just wondering if in the experience of Working line gsd breeders and trainers if they also believe it to be rare for dog who would protect for real to be able to get along with its family ? obviously with some dogs they wouldn't be able to,just curious if there would be more dogs than rare that can ?

I know some strong dogs that have been able to live in a family and some that wouldn't be suitable, but am looking for more info.

I ask working line breeders too because many do look for dogs who do have the suitable temperament to protect for real for breeding, and some of the breeders may have kids, some may not or they may sell pups to family homes, even if they don't would still like opinions









obviously the experience of the handler is also a consideration.


any info is appreciated.


----------



## Chris Wild

The answer is yes, a good PPD can also be a good family dog....
IF the dog is truly of sound temperament and it's ability to protect for real is true protection, not being overly sharp or civil due to nerve issues. 
IF it has *good* training. 
IF it is in the hands of a responsible owner who understands the dog and it's training, keeps up on good maintenance training, and manages the dog properly.

Problem is lots of "IF"s. I have seen far more dogs labled as PPDs that were in fact displaying temperament problems that people either ignored, or misconstrued. And far more bad PPD trainers than good ones. And far more people who have PPDs for all the wrong reasons and don't have the understanding or level of responsibility to handle one properly.

I would say that amongst the dogs labled as PPDs, one who is a true PPD and can live well in a family situation is more rare than not, simply because often all those "IF"s are not met. Not because there aren't dogs who are suitable for this situation. There are many. They just don't often find themselves in PPD homes where they also receive good training and good management from their owners. The temperament traits that make for a good PPD are not mutually exclusive to what makes for a good family dog.... just depends on the training, ownership and family.


----------



## southerncharm

It all has to do with sound temperament and _proper_ training. Way too many PPDs have neither...which results in a dog that should not be kept around children. I've met PPDs that are great family dogs...clingy toddlers & wrestling teenagers included.


----------



## lcht2

a good protection trainer will add situations such as the kids rough houseing with friends in the house situation that saying the dog is sound and solid. tyson is in the same kind of training but for sport all though it is real life situations. i will say this that my 11 month old daughter has her way with tyson and he's a brute of a dog.


----------



## Nelly

thanks everyone



> Quote:IF the dog is truly of sound temperament and it's ability to protect for real is true protection, not being overly sharp or civil due to nerve issues.


yes when i say sharpness I don't mean due to poor nerves.
Agree there are lots of dogs called a PPD when they are nerve bags.



> Quote: would say that amongst the dogs labled as PPDs, one who is a true PPD and can live well in a family situation is more rare than not, simply because often all those "IF"s are not met. Not because there aren't dogs who are suitable for this situation. There are many. They just don't often find themselves in PPD homes where they also receive good training and good management from their owners. The temperament traits that make for a good PPD are not mutually exclusive to what makes for a good family dog.... just depends on the training, ownership and family.


this trainer also mentioned if he had kids, he would rather a different dog than his own PPD( not a nervy dog has strong fight drive)...so even if there is good management and training there will be some individual dogs not suited because of their temperament traits ?


----------



## Nelly

nothing else ?







anyone have anymore comments ?


----------



## ladylaw203

Well, I have never met one human being that truly needed a real PPD. Cops are bad enough about being lazy on control work. Civilians have no requirements at all to maintain the out and control so,no, you do not need one. Find another way to feel secure that does not carry all of that liability


----------



## Nelly

> Quote:Well, I have never met one human being that truly needed a real PPD.


ok.... i wasn't asking if people really need PPD's.

i also asked here because some breeders look for that kind of temperament..



> Quote: I ask working line breeders too because many do look for dogs who do have the suitable temperament to protect for real for breeding, and some of the breeders may have kids, some may not or they may sell pups to family homes, even if they don't would still like opinions


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Nelly, having trained many PPDs, I would have to say that in my experience, the MAJORITY of the dogs I and my team trained were family dogs. A rare few loved the work so much they wanted to do it all the time, an ended up being guard dogs. (To me, a guard dog means a dog that guards property on his own terms, without supervision from a human.)

Now, I should clarify that we were not in the business of training dogs to be PPDs first; rather, they were family dogs to begin with. As such, it's probably safe to assume that each of the MAJORITY described above were already known to have a good "family" temperament, does that make sense?

I also believe that the potential for problems with a PPD down the road really comes down to the owner. Like Chris said, or alluded to, above, if the owner doesn't know what they have on their hands, that sets the stage for trouble. It is for this reason alone that we only trained the dogs WITH the owners. My philosophy is that the owner MUST be involved every step of the way. Otherwise, turning a PPD over to an unwitting owner is akin to giving someone a loaded fully automatic weapon with the safety off, in that it's not a matter of if the gun will go off unexpectedly, it's more like, when!


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootOtherwise, turning a PPD over to an unwitting owner is akin to giving someone a loaded fully automatic weapon with the safety off, in that it's not a matter of if the gun will go off unexpectedly, it's more like, when!


actually i would have to say that an "unloaded gun" would be a lot more dangerous. by "unloaded gun" i mean a dog that hasnt been trained and just decides to go off without anybody knowing that the dog had it in him. yes, not just anybody should own one but somebody who decides that they NEED to buy one should take some kind of handler courses to learn how to handle a dog and how to handle THAT particular dog. 

even if say that the PPD decides to take action without command, who's to say that the very same dog wouldnt have done the same thing without training??


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Ahhh, therein lies the quandry, one would think. At the moment, I have no plans to protection-train my current pup. However, she is smart, quick, and has a very strong prey drive, and if she develops any kind of un-channeled aggressive behavior, I will indeed train her for protection. Why? Because I know that the most important part of aggression training is teaching the dog to know when it SHOULD use aggression and when it should NOT. The second most important part is teaching a dog that situations are not always what the dog might perceive as a time to "show its colors", so they should not initiate aggression without permission, unless they are placed "on guard". Left unchecked, aggressive behavior in an untrained dog IS akin to a loaded weapon, whereas if it's taught how and when it's permitted to channel its aggression, I won't have to worry about random acts of aggression.

FWIW, we actually trained quite a few dogs that owners thought were much too aggressive in a family environment, but in the end the unwarranted aggressive behavior was gone. Of course, just because a dog has learned something, you should always continue to practice the learned behavior with them. For obedience, that helps keep them sharp, but for aggressive training, it also gives them an outlet.


----------



## Nelly

> Quote: Now, I should clarify that we were not in the business of training dogs to be PPDs first; rather, they were family dogs to begin with. As such, it's probably safe to assume that each of the MAJORITY described above were already known to have a good "family" temperament, does that make sense?


Makes sense, the trainer I already mentioned said they look for the ability to do PP first , everything else secondary as they were a business.


----------



## Nelly

Any more comments or people would rather PM ?



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:: chris wrote; would say that amongst the dogs labled as PPDs, one who is a true PPD and can live well in a family situation is more rare than not, simply because often all those "IF"s are not met. Not because there aren't dogs who are suitable for this situation. There are many. They just don't often find themselves in PPD homes where they also receive good training and good management from their owners. The temperament traits that make for a good PPD are not mutually exclusive to what makes for a good family dog.... just depends on the training, ownership and family.
> 
> 
> 
> nelly wrote; this trainer also mentioned if he had kids, he would rather a different dog than his own PPD( not a nervy dog has strong fight drive)...so even if there is good management and training there will be some individual dogs not suited because of their temperament traits ?
Click to expand...


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: Nelly
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Now, I should clarify that we were not in the business of training dogs to be PPDs first; rather, they were family dogs to begin with. As such, it's probably safe to assume that each of the MAJORITY described above were already known to have a good "family" temperament, does that make sense?
> 
> 
> 
> Makes sense, the trainer I already mentioned said they look for the ability to do PP first , everything else secondary as they were a business.
Click to expand...

Wait... what I meant was that although our business was indeed protection training, we did not train them to be PPDs from the get-go. They were all ALREADY family dogs that later came for protection training.

In my book, a dog that's going to live with a family shouldn't FIRST be protection-trained then later placed with a family, they should already know what family life is all about. And, FWIW, I can't recall any family dog that couldn't be trained to protect. Even the dogs that were "shy" or "timid" that other trainers ruled out for protection training all became good family protectors. Some of those dogs that were deemed "unworthy of protection training" by other trainers eventually became partners of Man-Dog Patrol Teams.

I guess that goes to show how different trainers are. I mean, from my experience, trainers that "fail" dogs that they "evaluate" to see whether they have "it" or not, seem to be wrong quite often. But, like I said earlier, I've not come across a dog that couldn't be trained for protection; of course, maybe the other trainers only knew of only one method for protection training, whereas our training techniques were drawn from several different methods, and it was not uncommon for us to tailor the style of training to fit each dog, as EVERY dog is different, so when it comes to real life protection training, there is no ONE set way. And, just like with obedience, there's ALWAYS more than one way to skin a cat, you know what I mean?


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: Nellythis trainer also mentioned if he had kids, he would rather a different dog than his own PPD( not a nervy dog has strong fight drive)...so even if there is good management and training there will be some individual dogs not suited because of their temperament traits ?


Like I said above, there were a few (very few) dogs that learned to love aggressive training so much that they ended up as guard dogs. But, these types of dogs became easy to spot before we ever started training. For example, when some dogs get into something, they get so focused, they can't even hear, see, or even sense a handler. They're kind of hyper-focused, for lack of a better term. Imagine that dog learning that he is finally ALLOWED to use his brute stregth and 750psi bite pressure. What if he becomes SO focused that he CAN'T hear you calling him off. That's an accident waiting to happen.

Take a look at your own dog. When he's focused on his favorite thing, be it a ball, playing with another dog, or even his food bowl, can you get his attention? If not, you have to work at getting it. Now, some dogs aren't being stubborn, they just naturally block everything out. So, if you can't break their attention from, say, that ball he loves to fetch, no matter what humane technique you try, then he's probably not a good choice to be protection trained and live with a family. I say HUMANE because hurting the dog to get his attention is not a fair or humane test, because of COURSE you'd get a hyper-focused dog's attention, if you beat it long and hard enough, but that's just not right.

So, it can be like what Chris said above about owner management of the dog, but it can also be something innate in the dog, too, does that make sense? So, little, but KEY, things can help determine whether or not a dog SHOULD be protection trained and still be trustworthy and reliable later back in a family setting. Just to be clear, it is VERY EASY to train a dog to protect, but you might not be able to re-program the hyper-focusing a particular dog does naturally, and later expect to be able to trust it in ALL situations. I'd prefer to err on the side of caution.

If you're bent on protection training, then more power to you. But, before you start, start practicing getting his attention under the most exciting distrations. If you can do that, you're half way home.

Oh, and as an aside, don't listen to all the BS people tell you about it taking YEARS to protection-train a dog. Sure, you'd want to do maintenance work over the years, but to get them to know what to, and when and when not to do it, is very similar to obedience training, in that it doesn't need to be years, it can easily be done in a few short months, if not weeks, if you know what you're doing and are diligent.


----------



## Nelly

> Quote:Wait... what I meant was that although our business was indeed protection training, we did not train them to be PPDs from the get-go. They were all ALREADY family dogs that later came for protection training.


Yes, I understand what you mean.



> Quote:But, like I said earlier, I've not come across a dog that couldn't be trained for protection; of course, maybe the other trainers only knew of only one method for protection training, whereas our training techniques were drawn from several different methods,


Well I haven't heard that often ?

What about the dogs that some working line breeders look for breeding, that show strong fight which would also enable them to be a PPD or PD, from what I gather ( and limited experience) their just aren't many of these dogs around ?


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: NellyWhat about the dogs that some working line breeders look for breeding, that show strong fight which would also enable them to be a PPD or PD, from what I gather ( and limited experience) their just aren't many of these dogs around ?


Well, sure, having a lineage that's a working line can help ensure that a dog is a hard worker and maybe even fearless, but if you concentrate too much on lines, you can also end up with that hyper-focused dog, which would be much harder to work into a family setting, you know what I mean? Especially when you're talking a PPD.

If you're talking strictly a working dog, then I personally think that's a completely different animal, and in that case you can afford a few risks, and even some minor mistakes, but in a fmaily setting you really can't afford to take that chance.

It is also worth noting that a family personal protection dog is much different than a pure working dog, in that the PPD need only protect the family, which could be as simple as just warding off people which at times doesn't require a bite and hold, as would be the case in a pure working dog like a Police dog, which is trained to apprehend more than protect. And, of course, there's the guard dog, that depending upon his work environment, might include tearing someone up. But, a personal protection dog is more for keeping someone safe, not necessarily capturing like a police dog, or disabling someone like a perpetrator trying to steal weapons at an arms plant or whatever, you know what I mean?

So, for personal protection, I wouldn't rule out ANY GSD line, because all dogs are different. Besides, GSDs have it bred in them from way, WAY back to be protectors; even when they were originally intended to be herding dogs they already had the instinct to protect their charges.


----------



## Nelly

> Quote:Well, sure, having a lineage that's a working line can help ensure that a dog is a hard worker and maybe even fearless, but if you concentrate too much on lines, you can also end up with that hyper-focused dog, which would be much harder to work into a family setting, you know what I mean? Especially when you're talking a PPD.


I am just not familiar with the term "hyper focused" more high in drive but I understand what you are getting at.



> Quote: If you're talking strictly a working dog, then I personally think that's a completely different animal, and in that case you can afford a few risks, and even some minor mistakes, but in a fmaily setting you really can't afford to take that chance.


I'm assuming they are one and the same which is mentioned in my original question, I'm talking about a PPD which will have a high chance of protecting for real. 

And just a note I am not looking to train my dog, which doesn't have the necessary drives anyway I was just curious about the statement the trainer made to me of real PPD not being able to live in a family environment.


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootAhhh, therein lies the quandry, one would think. At the moment, I have no plans to protection-train my current pup. However, she is smart, quick, and has a very strong prey drive, and if she develops any kind of un-channeled aggressive behavior, I will indeed train her for protection. Why? Because I know that the most important part of aggression training is teaching the dog to know when it SHOULD use aggression and when it should NOT. The second most important part is teaching a dog that situations are not always what the dog might perceive as a time to "show its colors", so they should not initiate aggression without permission, unless they are placed "on guard". Left unchecked, aggressive behavior in an untrained dog IS akin to a loaded weapon, whereas if it's taught how and when it's permitted to channel its aggression, I won't have to worry about random acts of aggression.
> 
> FWIW, we actually trained quite a few dogs that owners thought were much too aggressive in a family environment, but in the end the unwarranted aggressive behavior was gone. Of course, just because a dog has learned something, you should always continue to practice the learned behavior with them. For obedience, that helps keep them sharp, but for aggressive training, it also gives them an outlet.


there is no pun intended when i say this but it bugs the crap out of me when people prefer to protection work as aggression work. the reason i say that is because when i think of aggression i think of fear and dominance.

i personally would never let an aggressive dog "know" that it is ok to bite. if your training right, your dog should never bite out of aggression. it just sounds to me that you have seen and worked with a lot of nerve-bags...?? from what i know and have seen i have never seen a dog bite out of aggression (while training)..those dogs are generally harder to train or untrainable and are generally passed on. we work the dogs out of prey and fight drive. mostly its all started out with prey work and then the trainer starts to push the dog to "fight" (mostly when building up young dogs).


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildThe answer is yes, a good PPD can also be a good family dog....
> IF the dog is truly of sound temperament and it's ability to protect for real is true protection, not being overly sharp or civil due to nerve issues.
> IF it has *good* training.
> IF it is in the hands of a responsible owner who understands the dog and it's training, keeps up on good maintenance training, and manages the dog properly.
> 
> Problem is lots of "IF"s. I have seen far more dogs labled as PPDs that were in fact displaying temperament problems that people either ignored, or misconstrued. And far more bad PPD trainers than good ones. And far more people who have PPDs for all the wrong reasons and don't have the understanding or level of responsibility to handle one properly.
> 
> I would say that amongst the dogs labled as PPDs, one who is a true PPD and can live well in a family situation is more rare than not, simply because often all those "IF"s are not met. Not because there aren't dogs who are suitable for this situation. There are many. They just don't often find themselves in PPD homes where they also receive good training and good management from their owners. The temperament traits that make for a good PPD are not mutually exclusive to what makes for a good family dog.... just depends on the training, ownership and family.


still the best answer yet.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: lcht2there is no pun intended when i say this but it bugs the crap out of me when people prefer to protection work as aggression work. the reason i say that is because when i think of aggression i think of fear and dominance.


If you take it out of context, then "aggression" can mean whatever you want it to mean. I use the term interchangably to characterize the particular type of training we're talking about here. Obedience does not require an aggressive act, while protection sure does.



> Quote:it just sounds to me that you have seen and worked with a lot of nerve-bags...??


Not really, but I seem to run into people that seem to have nothing better to do but angle and spoil for a fight over the littlest things, so I know EXACTLY what you mean.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: NellyI'm assuming they are one and the same which is mentioned in my original question, I'm talking about a PPD which will have a high chance of protecting for real.


I and my fiancee lived with two GSDs and one Dobie, who were all protection trained. They worked almost every night. Their particular jobs were to protect their human partners on foot patrols and deter intruders in a variety of areas, including aviation and weapons plants, woods and brush surrounding runways at airports, even inside supermarkets in very bad areas. Just imagine how bad these areas must have been that dogs were allowed in places that sold food!

Anyway, in crowded supermarket settings they brushed right up against people regularly and we never worried about them biting by mistake because they were not they type of dogs that would get in the hyper-focus zone and consider all kinds of things to be potential targets, which is what you might what in other types of settings, but not crowded supermarkets and malls and places like that. These particular dogs were chosen to work in close proximity with people because partly because they did NOT come from "working" lines. But, I tell you what, when you turned them "on", people would fall all over themselves to get the heck out of dodge, that's for sure.

And, these dogs were trained for protection in the real world. Agitation work included multiple assailants with weapons. What does this mean? With multiple assailants, a dog must be aware of all of them, so he can't focus on one "prey". It also means he should not use a "bite-and-hold" on one person if there are more than one assailants, you know what I mean? His job is to protect his charge and himself, so bite-an-holds in a multi-perp situation is something that can get him and his charge killed.

When not working, we took them everywhere we could. These dogs were awesome around kids and other dogs, too, even strange kids at parks. 

In my experience, working lines are great for high-level competitions and for certain types of work like police dogs and herding, and such. But, to be protection trained and be a family dog, which is what this thread was originall about, I find that some can have too high of a prey drive to be trustworthy. That's not to say ALL working line dogs are like that, but in my experience, it seems that your chances on having a hyper-focused type dog increase when you breed specifically for high prey drive.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Time to edit expired, but here's a better version of what I said above: (Mods, feel free to delete the immediately previous post)



> Originally Posted By: NellyI'm assuming they are one and the same which is mentioned in my original question, I'm talking about a PPD which will have a high chance of protecting for real.


I and my fiancee lived with two GSDs and one Dobie, who were all protection trained. They worked almost every night. Their particular jobs were to protect their human partners on foot patrols and deter intruders in a variety of areas, including aviation and weapons plants, woods and brush surrounding runways at airports, even inside supermarkets in very bad areas. Just imagine how bad these areas must have been that dogs were allowed in places that sold food!

Anyway, in crowded supermarket settings they brushed right up against people regularly and we never worried about them biting by mistake because they were not they type of dogs that would get in the hyper-focus zone and consider all kinds of things to be potential targets, which is what you might what in other types of settings, but not crowded supermarkets and malls and places like that. These particular dogs were chosen to work in close proximity with people because partly because they did NOT come from "working" lines. But, I tell you what, when you turned them "on", people would fall all over themselves to get the heck out of dodge, that's for sure.

And, these dogs were trained for protection in the real world. Agitation work included multiple assailants with weapons. What does this mean? With multiple assailants, a dog must be aware of all of them, so he can't focus on one "prey". It also means he should not use a "bite-and-hold" on one person if there are more than one assailants, you know what I mean? His job is to protect his charge and himself, so bite-an-holds in a multi-perp situation is something that can get him and his charge killed.

*Inserted: *_"Real world?" They saved our lives one night at home, too. They were perfect. No one got bit, no problems with them not listening off-lead, either, but they protected us from an armed person. Everybody went home intact that night, even the intruder. But, that's another story. I posted it on here awhile back, maybe you caught it. They also protected me and others at work, warded off more potential assaults than I want to think about, and even detained people, when the situation called for it. Point is, these were real dogs, with real experience in more ways than one. So, I am not a trainer that just train dogs. I've been there and experienced what REALLY happens. I don't just put on a suit and hide behind something and simulate circumstances. I've seen it, done it, lived it. And, lived amongst these types of dogs. And protection trained dogs and their owners for all sorts of reasons. So, I really take what alot of OTHER people say with a grain of salt, because I KNOW the real world firsthand, and I KNOW what I am talking about, you know what I'm saying?_

When not working, we took them everywhere we could. These dogs were awesome around kids and other dogs, too, even strange kids at parks. 

In my experience, working lines are great for high-level competitions and for certain types of work like police dogs and herding, and such. But, to be protection trained and be a family dog, which is what this thread was originall about, I find that some can have too high of a prey drive to be trustworthy. That's not to say ALL working line dogs are like that, but in my experience, it seems that your chances on having a hyper-focused type dog increase when you breed specifically for high prey drive.

*Inserted:* _And, remember, Police dogs are very different from personal protection dogs, because they have armed officers behind them, and are used to track and apprehend and all that, and they don't really have to be used and reasonable choices are made in that regard, and when they are used the situations are as controlled as possible. On the other hand, personal protection in the real world means lives are at stake, and often there are no choices, no assistance, and situations are definitely not controlled._


----------



## Catu

Thanks for a great post!


----------



## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> In my experience, working lines are great for high-level competitions and for certain types of work like police dogs and herding, and such. But, to be protection trained and be a family dog, which is what this thread was originall about, I find that some can have too high of a prey drive to be trustworthy. That's not to say ALL working line dogs are like that, but in my experience, it seems that your chances on having a hyper-focused type dog increase when you breed specifically for high prey drive.


DDR dogs were not bred for high prey drive but they are considered to be a working line dogs. I haven't seen a lot of pure DDRs but those that I have met seem to be very clearheaded and absolutely not high prey driven or high energy. Pretty dominant and defensive, though.


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote:And, remember, Police dogs are very different from personal protection dogs, because they have armed officers behind them, and are used to track and apprehend and all that, and they don't really have to be used and reasonable choices are made in that regard, and when they are used the situations are as controlled as possible. On the other hand, personal protection in the real world means lives are at stake, and often there are no choices, no assistance, and situations are definitely not controlled.


Excuse me. I have spent 30 years in "the real world" as a police officer and we do NOT deal in controlled situations, many times lives are at stake,and I have been out there a lot with no assistance. It does not get too much more real than that. 



> Quote: In my experience, working lines are great for high-level competitions and for certain types of work like police dogs and herding, and such. But, to be protection trained and be a family dog, which is what this thread was originall about, I find that some can have too high of a prey drive to be trustworthy. That's not to say ALL working line dogs are like that, but in my experience, it seems that your chances on having a hyper-focused type dog increase when you breed specifically for high prey drive.


Uh ,explain what a "hyper-focused" dog is??? We use a lot of working lines as police dogs. One of mine is Czech. The main thing is to have solid nerves. I have no idea what you mean by having too much prey drive to be trustworthy means.....Please expound


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: Even the dogs that were "shy" or "timid" that other trainers ruled out for protection training all became good family protectors. Some of those dogs that were deemed "unworthy of protection training" by other trainers eventually became


Shy,timid means nerve bag and totally unsuitable for ANY kind of protection or bite work. A dog with weak nerves is defensive and sharp. To do any kind of aggression training on a dog like that is to produce a dog that is a liability.

Exactly how do you train a shy timid dog to protect????


----------



## DFrost

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Even the dogs that were "shy" or "timid" that other trainers ruled out for protection training all became good family protectors. Some of those dogs that were deemed "unworthy of protection training" by other trainers eventually became
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly how do you train a shy timid dog to protect????
Click to expand...


You chain it to a table where it can't go anywhere and then......

well, I guess it's what some do. In truth, I've not yet discovered how to train a shy timid dog to protect. I've only been at it for 40+ years though, so I know I have a lot to learn.

DFrost


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote:You chain it to a table where it can't go anywhere and then......
> 
> well, I guess it's what some do. In truth, I've not yet discovered how to train a shy timid dog to protect. I've only been at it for 40+ years though, so I know I have a lot to learn.


Exactly. Well, what I have seen in civilians and even in some police officers that do not know how to evaluate dogs is that folks see a dog growling,showing teeth,growling etc and THINK that dog is one tough sucker when in fact he is weak,sharp,defensive and exhibiting fear behavior. He will bite allright, out of fear but he is not stable. Puts on a really good show to the novice. I bet you see that too david...


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203Excuse me. I have spent 30 years in "the real world" as a police officer and we do NOT deal in controlled situations, many times lives are at stake,and I have been out there a lot with no assistance. It does not get too much more real than that.


What I meant was that a police dog gets to work with someone like you, who can back them up. You have a weapon and potential assistance from other LEOs, and you can in fact decide whether or not you would allow the use of your dog in a given situation that you roll up on.

On the other hand, a personal protection dog may not have the luxury of someone deciding when he is to be used, and often does not have assistance of LEOs to help him determine whether or not he should do his job, nor does he have someone as armed and dangerous, if not more, that can back him up, does that make sense?

I apologize if I insulted or offended you and your upstanding profession in some way. Sometimes writing stuff does not always come out the way it was intended.












> Quote:Uh ,explain what a "hyper-focused" dog is??? We use a lot of working lines as police dogs. One of mine is Czech. The main thing is to have solid nerves. I have no idea what you mean by having too much prey drive to be trustworthy means.....Please expound


I thought I tried to explain that earlier. To me, hyper-foucsed means that you're so intent on something that you become oblivious to other things around you. Kind of like when you're watching a great show on TV, and someone in the room is talking to you and you don't even realize it. Realize, please, that I am not SAYING ALL working line dogs are that way, not at all. I, too, have a dog that is from Czech working lines, and her upline alos includes German lines, but she can still hear me.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: DFrost
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Even the dogs that were "shy" or "timid" that other trainers ruled out for protection training all became good family protectors. Some of those dogs that were deemed "unworthy of protection training" by other trainers eventually became
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly how do you train a shy timid dog to protect????
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You chain it to a table where it can't go anywhere and then......
> 
> well, I guess it's what some do. In truth, I've not yet discovered how to train a shy timid dog to protect. I've only been at it for 40+ years though, so I know I have a lot to learn.
> 
> DFrost
Click to expand...

40 years? Wow. That's an impressive tenure.

I guess I'm lucky, then, because I've only been at it for 26 years, so I get to keep on learning, and learning new things only helps me better myself. But, then again, it sounds like I'm different than you. I like to keep learning new things and refining things I've already learned. And, I'm fortunate to be the type of person who tries to take something positive with me as often as possible, because I've learned that helps me be more armed to arrive at solutions.

I've also been accused, more than once, of not always sticking with proven methods to resolve issue, being creative, and thinking outside the box. Of course, methodic people might not appreciate my way of thinking, but that's fine, to each his own.

But, consider this: two programmers are charged with creating a utility to copy files from the C: drive of a computer to a protable USB drive. Will they both write the same code to produce the utility? What if one programmer uses formal procedures in this code, while the other comes up with his own? Does it necessarily mean either programmer's code is better than the other's? That's a rhetoric question, by the way, to be answered anyway a reader likes. Personally, I like to think they BOTH have merit, and file both those techniques away in my head, because I never know if at least a little SOMETHING might be helpful to me down the road. 

I'm also not the kind of person who spend his time looking for holes in other people's techniques and methods. I'd rather spend my efforts sucking up the bits of info I haven't previously considered. But that's just me, because I like to learn, remember? I'm also not afraid to say, "I never thought of that. Good idea." But, again, that's just me.

It's kind of interesting as to how this thread has become a flaming match of sorts. Why is that?

OP: I posted my thoughts and experiences on this thread in the hopes that they might help you arrive at the answer you seek. Know that I was not trying to convince you, or anyone else, of anything; I was trying to share. I hope they were helpful, in at least some regard.

Oh, and BTW, I now understand why you posted that comment about possibly taking this to PMs.


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI thought I tried to explain that earlier. To me, hyper-foucsed means that you're so intent on something that you become oblivious to other things around you.


thats what *I *would call "haveing a lot of drive"......teach focus....or give Aderall...i heard that works too..

i've never heard the term hyper focused but the way your describeing it i would love any dog like that...a dog determined to get whatever it wants that he/she doesnt care about the gun going off in the backround, the whip cracking in the air, the 6 foot fence in front of her blocking her target and decides that she is going to go over it to get her target..etc etc


----------



## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> Oh, and BTW, I now understand why you posted that comment about possibly taking this to PMs.


people like to argue...plz dont take offense as i am not saying your right or wrong, just like a good conversation..


----------



## DFrost

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Well, what I have seen in civilians and even in some police officers that do not know how to evaluate dogs is that folks see a dog growling,showing teeth,growling etc and THINK that dog is one tough sucker when in fact he is weak,sharp,defensive and exhibiting fear behavior. He will bite allright, out of fear but he is not stable. Puts on a really good show to the novice. I bet you see that too david...
Click to expand...


----------



## DFrost

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:You chain it to a table where it can't go anywhere and then......
> 
> well, I guess it's what some do. In truth, I've not yet discovered how to train a shy timid dog to protect. I've only been at it for 40+ years though, so I know I have a lot to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Well, what I have seen in civilians and even in some police officers that do not know how to evaluate dogs is that folks see a dog growling,showing teeth,growling etc and THINK that dog is one tough sucker when in fact he is weak,sharp,defensive and exhibiting fear behavior. He will bite allright, out of fear but he is not stable. Puts on a really good show to the novice. I bet you see that too david...
Click to expand...


Oh yeah, I've seen it. How many times has someone told you: I have just the dog you need, he's mean tries to bite everyone, he'd be a great police dog. You can come see him, he's chained in the back yard. Now show me that same dog, untrained, when I walk up to it it stands there, give you a look, maybe stands a little taller, doesn't give ground, but with a kind word show some curiosity towards you, not away. Then I"ll at least take a look to see if it's worth further testing. 

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI thought I tried to explain that earlier. To me, hyper-foucsed means that you're so intent on something that you become oblivious to other things around you.
> 
> 
> 
> thats what *I *would call "haveing a lot of drive
> i've never heard the term hyper focused but the way your describeing it i would love any dog like that...a dog determined to get whatever it wants that he/she doesnt care about the gun going off in the backround, the whip cracking in the air, the 6 foot fence in front of her blocking her target and decides that she is going to go over it to get her target..etc etc "
Click to expand...

That's not the same thing. Note that I used the terms "prey drive" and "hyper-focus" in different contexts. "Drive", as you described it is desirable, yes, but I'm sure you can agree that when that drive becomes an obsession, so much so that the dog simply cannot "hear" you, or whatever you want to call it, that can easily become a problem.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> Oh, and BTW, I now understand why you posted that comment about possibly taking this to PMs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> people like to argue...plz dont take offense as i am not saying your right or wrong, just like a good conversation..
Click to expand...

I like good conversation, too, but I don't think arguing is the way to accomplish that. Differences in opinions are fine, too, but when people challenge each other, I think that's a waste of time on a forum like this. In personal face-to-face conversations, that's one thing, but writings back and forth can too easily be misunderstood, as well as contexts get changed alot.

I mean if you posted your theory and I posted mine, great, the people that are trying to get a handle on something hopefully get the best of both our posts. But, when someone posts something, then someone else nitpicks because maybe THEY don't have the experience, or the wherewithall to see that just because they haven't experienced it must not be true, that's a waste of time.

I don't know... then again, maybe there are some people whose living circumstances prevent them from the good fortune of going out an actually socializing with people in person, where they can enjoy good banter and debates and such, and maybe this forum is their only outlet.

But, to me, it looks like people posting questions like the OP did on this this thread, are looking for answers, so the people chiming in should not argue with each other because the entire context of the thread gets thrown out of whack.

Thanks for the clarification on your position, though.


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: But, consider this: two programmers are charged with creating a utility to copy files from the C: drive of a computer to a protable USB drive. Will they both write the same code to produce the utility? What if one programmer uses formal procedures in this code, while the other comes up with his own? Does it necessarily mean either


Ok, my friend that has nothing to do with training a timid,shy dog to be a protection dog. Explain what you mean by shy and timid which is what we call nervy and defensive(unstable) and how you train the dog to be a protection dog? This is a very relevant thread because I do not want anyone out there to think that a shy,timid dog is a candidate for protection work. This can get someone hurt and/or sued. No need to take this private as this is a civil discussion which is what these boards are for
As far as hyper focused goes because of high prey drive, we can take a prey dog with solid nerves and put defense on the dog. As a matter of fact, more prey than defense makes a good patrol dog. David, do you agree?


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quoterive", as you described it is desirable, yes, but I'm sure you can agree that when that drive becomes an obsession, so much so that the dog simply cannot "hear" you, or whatever you want to call it, that can easily become a problem.


Again, a dog like that has a lot of drive BUT has weak nerves. again not a candidate for scent work or protection. And yes, knowledge is important and folks discussing this is good


----------



## DFrost

"I guess I'm lucky, then, because I've only been at it for 26 years, so I get to keep on learning, and learning new things only helps me better myself."

It's true I've been at this 40 years, actually it's more like 43. I went to my first dog school in 1966. The only thing that, in and of itself guarentees is; I'm old. I once knew a person I respected greatly. He gave me advice I hold dear yet today. He said; "Some people have 25 years experience; some have 1 years of experience 25 times. Don't fall into the latter catagory. I like to think I'm of the former. When a person quits learning they are done in this business. Having said that however, terminology comes and goes. Just because someone came up with a new name for an old technique in order to write a book, publish a paper, open a business, become the alpah dog or sell dogs doesn't make it better. At any rate, I do believe in the old saying; the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is, the third one is wrong. I would point out, this is my occupation. It's not a hobby; not an avocation, not something I"m going to do for a few years. My "product" is evaluated on a daily basis. I work for the department, I'm not a contractor. The handlers see me frequently. My "customer" can be very critical when his equipment fails. You can bet I'll hear about it really fast. While I'll never claim I know-it-all, I can say, I've got a pretty darned good idea about what's going on.

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Quote:Ok, my friend that has nothing to do with training a shy...


I didn't say it had anything to do with training a shy dog. But, it does have something to do with the way posts are misperceived and possibly being misconstrued. It has to do with being open-minded. But, again, you need to be able to read what I said and be able to apply it to the current goings on (arguments) on this thread. Maybe it needs to be more clear:

Just because SOMEONE doesn't know how, doesn't mean it can't be done by someone else. Sorry to be so blunt, but I think it's time to bury this point.

"Shy" and "timid" does not mean


> Quote:nervy and defensive(unstable)


. "Nervy and defensive(unstable)" is, well, nervy and unstable. But neither of those adjectives you used are what "shy" or "timid" mean. (You might want to look up all four adjectives.) That's what I mean about taking things out of context.

Thank you, but I prefer not to offer training tips of this nature. It is too dangerous, as you said.



> Quote:As far as hyper focused goes because of high prey drive, we can take a prey dog with solid nerves and put defense on the dog. As a matter of fact, more prey than defense makes a good patrol dog.


 Sounds to me like your perspective comes from police patrol dogs, not from personal protection, and there is a distinct difference. And, my understanding is that the OP asked whether or not personal protection trained dogs can live in family settings. Ironically "personal protection" pertains more to protecting families, at least moreso than a patrol dog.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Uh-oh, stupid me, I just realized (too late) that I'm arguing with a Moderator! I beg for forgiveness, and you were right all long. [anyone know of a good "back-pedaling" icon?]


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote:It's kind of interesting as to how this thread has become a flaming match of sorts. Why is that?


This is not flaming. David and I are old police k9 trainers and there are certain things that are common knowledge among us. A shy,timid dog,which if we are talking about the same thing,is nervy and unacceptable for protection training. We evaluate dogs for this and wash them for scent detector dogs as well. this is why I want you to expound on what behaviors exactly you are calling shy and timid and how you train them for protection. when one posts in a forum,one is NOT always going to have folks agree with them. That is why you support your position and we have a discussion.


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: Just because SOMEONE doesn't know how, doesn't mean it can't be done by someone else. Sorry to be so blunt, but I think it's time to bury this point.
> 
> "Shy" and "timid" does not mean Quote:nervy and defensive(unstable). "Nervy and defensive(unstable)" is, well, nervy and unstable. But neither of those adjectives you used are what "shy" or "timid" mean. (You might want to look up all four adjectives.) That's what I mean about taking things out of context.
> 
> Thank you, but I prefer not to offer training tips of this nature. It is too dangerous, as you said.


A shy dog,a timid dog is known in the dog world as one who does not adapt to surroundings, is fearful, timid, hackles, shows teeth, growls etc. There are many more behaviors that are all tied to a dog having weak nerves. Shy and timid are just a couple of them. What behaviors do YOU call shy and timid. You still will not expound on that. Do you train dogs in bitework? What is a fully trained PPD dog consist of when you are finished?
As far as not knowing HOW to train a shy dog. We do NOT train them,period. It is genetic. Regardless of what one does with a shy dog,when the dog is under pressure the weakness will surface which is why we wash them out. again, semantics plays a part so what do YOU call a shy timid dog?


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote:Uh-oh, stupid me, I just realized (too late) that I'm arguing with a Moderator! I beg for forgiveness, and you were right all long. [anyone know of a good "back-pedaling" icon


My being a moderator has nothing to do with the discussion. You are expressing your opinions, although I do not need a dictionary thank you. Express them without being catty and we can continue. I am a certifying official for the largest police k9 organization in the country for all fields and I can tell that a dog exhibiting shyness,fails from the git go which is why I keep asking you to articulate the behaviors that YOU call shy and timid to see if we are talking about the same thing.....


----------



## MrLeadFoot

I don't know how else to put it, but I'll try. By the way, yours and DFrost's last posts were much welcomed. Thank you.

To ME, a shy and timid is unsure, but NOT fearful, nor is is weak-nerved. Fearful is just that, fearful, and weak-nerved is weak-nerved. So semantics indeed appears to be a factor, because I don't like to mince words, and I think I've been pretty much calling a spade a spade when I said shy and timid, which are NOT the same as the terms you used.

A shy or timid dog, on the other hand, is often shy or timid because he is unsure of the unknown, just like a human. But, when exposed to things in which he has no experience, they can often be shown that there's no reason to be shy or timid, sort of a densensitization of things, which I am confident that you and your friend are quite familiar with.

So, I guess semantics indeed played a big part here, but you must admit that when you "call me out" on how I train a timid or shy dog to protect, yet use terms like nervy and unstable interchangably with shy and timid, that could easily have come off as a challenge from someone who didn't know the difference between the terms.

Yes, I do train dogs in bitework. Not as much as I used to, that's for sure, because my work has shifted to the "typical" civilian, for lack of a better term. However, a PPD, in my book, is one that will indeed bite, but not necessarily bite and hold until called "out". Again, in my book, the bite serves as one tool in his arsenal to ensure that his charges are protected.

I no longer train "patrol" dogs, however, in my book, they are a different animal, in that their "design" is more that of a police officer. Yes, protection is involved, but is not THE main focus. Protection dogs should defend something, while a patrol dog may "go after" and chase down someone. A personal protection dog should NOT leave their charges unattended.

I hope I've clarified what I've been trying to say here. And, THAT's why my position has been that a personal protection dog can indeed live with families, they're supposed to be able to.

I must admit, I might have clouded my own position when talking about the patrol dogs in earlier posts. In fact, now that I think about it, that might have triggered some of this misunderstanding, so I should clarify that, too.

The dogs I referred to that were partners of Man-Dog Patrol Teams were dogs that were ORIGINALLY trained to be personal protection dogs, however, they exhibited certain characteristics and abilities that were conducive to "developing" them into patrol dogs. With that said, their patrol work did not include scent work, per se; some were used in areas at times when humans other than their handlers were not supposed to be present. I think I mentioned aviation and weapons manufacturing facilities and airports as some places. 

So, obviously, I agree that nervous and unstable dogs don't belong in either personal protection or patrol professions, but my position remains that a PPD can indeed coexist well with a family.

I think I've pretty much clarified myself, here, and since you guys are the experts on patrol dogs, I'm not sure I can be of much more assistance (if indeed I have been ANY) to the OP, so:










Edit: The reason I do not train for protection as much any more is because in the area in which I now live, there is not much call for it, and the only calls I get for such training are from people I suspect will misuse the application, if you know what I mean.


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: A shy or timid dog, on the other hand, is often shy or timid because he is unsure of the unknown, just like a human. But, when exposed to things in which he has no experience, they can often be shown that there's no reason to be shy or timid, sort of a densensitization of things, which I am confident that you and your friend are quite familiar with.



Being unsure of the unknown, is being fearful of a new environment which is why we wash them. All police service dogs,narc dogs,bomb dogs,patrol dogs etc must be confident in all environments because we never know where we are going to have to deploy. We cannot socialize nor familiarize a dog in every environment. And, a dog that exhibits that kind of behavior more than once, is nervy in our books. 
If a PPD does not bite and hold, what does he do exactly? Snatch a quick bite and back up or what? 



> Quote: Even the dogs that were "shy" or "timid" that other trainers ruled out for protection training all became good family protectors. Some of those dogs that were deemed "unworthy of protection training" by other trainers eventually became


Again, this is the quote that originally bothered me. We wash those types of dogs out for many reasons. One can make these types bite,but they are biting out of fear and are not stable. If trainers have washed these types out there is a good reason. These are the junk yard dogs. The ones behind the fences that growl,hackle and bark at everything out of fear. They make a lot of noise and look like Cujo,but in the end,are paper tigers and give folks a false sense of security. They are also a liability because they are not clear headed and perceive everyone as a potential threat.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203 Being unsure of the unknown, is being fearful of a new environment which is why we wash them. All police service dogs,narc dogs,bomb dogs,patrol dogs etc must be confident in all environments because we never know where we are going to have to deploy. We cannot socialize nor familiarize a dog in every environment. And, a dog that exhibits that kind of behavior more than once, is nervy in our books.


In MY book, it depends upon WHAT shy or timid behavior the dog exhibits, and of course, like you said, if it's a pattern, then of course, it should be "washed". But, not always.



> Quote:If a PPD does not bite and hold, what does he do exactly? Snatch a quick bite and back up or what?


Again, it depends. If three people are coming at you and your dog, and your dog bites and holds one, then chances are your dog will be killed, or at least severely injured. Like I said, big difference than a police K9 who chases a perp down, or seeks him out, and apprehends with a bite and hold until his human partner arrives.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Even the dogs that were "shy" or "timid" that other trainers ruled out for protection training all became good family protectors. Some of those dogs that were deemed "unworthy of protection training" by other trainers eventually became
> 
> 
> 
> Again, this is the quote that originally bothered me. We wash those types of dogs out for many reasons. One can make these types bite,but they are biting out of fear and are not stable. If trainers have washed these types out there is a good reason. These are the junk yard dogs. The ones behind the fences that growl,hackle and bark at everything out of fear. They make a lot of noise and look like Cujo,but in the end,are paper tigers and give folks a false sense of security. They are also a liability because they are not clear headed and perceive everyone as a potential threat.
Click to expand...

In police training, I might agree that it is much easier to just get a different dog. But, when someone contacts us wanting their dog protection trained we don't just automatically rule out a timid or shy dog. Again, it depends on the degree of shyness, timidness, as well as WHAT the dog is shy of. And, because this is all practical and sensible, if the dog IS indeed truly fearful, then of course, we're going to advise the owner as such, and recommend a different approach.

It also depends upon WHAT the PPD is going to be used for. If he's a homebody, or accompanies his charges away from home, or whatever, also plays a role in that decision.

Now, if we were producing PPDs for sale, it would also be another ballgame entirely, and probably use factors similar to what you would use to evaluate your patrol dogs, because the last thing I would personally want, is to risk placing a dog with someone who is not trustworthy, and because we'd be churning out completed product, it would be more cost-effective to rule out "suspect" dogs, you know what I mean? That's just a thought off the top of my head, because I've never had the fortune, or misfortune, to have experience with those types of kennels, but I'm pretty sure they exist because there's a price for everything.

FWIW, since we trained the dogs people already had, we easily spent more time training the owners than the dogs themselves. As such, we actually "washed out" more owners than dogs.


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: and of course, like you said, if it's a pattern, then of course, it should be "washed". But, not always.


Not Always??????



> Quote:Again, it depends


explain please



> Quote:In police training, I might agree that it is much easier to just get a different dog. But, when someone contacts us wanting their dog protection trained we don't just automatically rule out a timid or shy dog. Again, it depends on the degree of shyness, timidness, as well as WHAT the dog is shy of. And, because this is all practical and sensible, if the dog IS indeed truly fearful, then of course, we're going to advise the owner as such, and recommend a different approach.


Uh, correct me if I an misinterpreting this but it sounds as if, you are training any old mutt, pet, whatever regardless of bloodline and temperament for folks as opposed to washing out dogs that any of us would consider unsuitable and instead of selling stable,well bred dogs that the rest of us would consider sound... am I getting this right? If not PLEASE be more specific because this is a lawyer's dream...

What would you wash out a client's dog for?

As I have said, an unstable shy dog can be trained to bite,but he will not be clear -headed and will be a liabiity even if he never leaves the house. People do have friends,plumbers etc in....


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Please stop trying to misconstrue everything I say into something else. I have a life. Sorry, but I just do not have time to explain everything in minute detail. Not to say that I don't TRY to word everything exactly like I mean it to come out. That's why I previously said that some things are better discussed face to face.

So, let's just leave it at the "fact" that you're right and I'm wrong on all fronts, OK? Geez.


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: Please stop trying to misconstrur everything I say into something else. I'm done here. You're right, remember, on all fronts. OK, happy? Geez.


I am taking your quotes directly and cutting and pasting them. The fact that you are unwilling to answer my questions thoroughly and are getting defensive is proving me right. The reason that I am asking the questions is that many folks read these forums and never post. They are trying to learn and are seeking help. Whenever I see anything that I think someone could take information from as gospel and I think that it may create a liability for the person,generate bad law and feed the frenzy of the folks advocating dangerous dog legislation that is epidemic across the US, I WILL address it and ask for clarification. If you choose not to defend your position. Fine. I shall end this by saying AGAIN. Folks there are certain breeds and certain bloodlines of those breeds who are suitable for protection work. Of those dogs,still many of them are unsuitable because of weak temperament etc. Civilians must also understand that a protection dog of ANY kind is a commitment for the life of the dog and maintenance training and control work is ongoing. the dog is a heck of a responsibility and can be a liability. In some states, it will affect your homeowner's insurance. That being said, a well bred GSD, Dutchie or Mal, that is sound in temperament, will pose enough of a threat to the average crook that no training is necessary. Few civilians need a dog specifically trained for protection. Buy a firearm and become proficient. NO dog is going to completely provide protection for the family and can give you a false sense of security. Alarms are an efficient option as are others. If someone is thinking of a PPD, DO research. Talk with many trainers,as well as folks who train and successfully certify police service dogs. Talk with your insurance agent. Knowledge is power


----------



## DFrost

I've heard this before and often from those that train personal protection. The discussions usually end up pretty much the same way. The protection people get defensive, claim everyone is trashing their training or get offended and leave the discussion. I don't understand it. I've read this thread and I'm trying to understand as well. When someone disagrees, stick around and explain. In fact, one could draw an analogy of this discussion to the temperment we are looking for; when things get tough, the dog doesn't leave, but stays and fights. 

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Hmmm... try looking at is another way. Maybe it's the WAY you folks handle all the posts. You want explanations to everything, and can't stand letting something sit at face value, if it isn't written exactly the way you want to hear it.

You had it right in that other post of yours, about no two trainers agreesing, so why did you digress and then stoop to such a low level?

You know what? I've heard this before from people like you two, too, but did I go an get antagonistic? No. You guys need to find something better to do. I don't have time to sit and fight with you guys. Your dispositions are obviously quite narrow-minded if this has happened previously. You need to change your tone, if you really want to engage people, and not bully them with your know-it-all attitudes. It's a sad thing to see, ESPECIALLY from people that suppsoedly represent this great industry. Very sad, indeed.


----------



## DFrost

I find it odd that asking questions or asking for a clarification is considered antagonistic. If you feel that way, then you are certainly correct. There is no sense in continuing this discussion.

DFrost


----------



## ladylaw203

> Quote: Maybe it's the WAY you folks handle all the posts. You want explanations to everything, and can't stand letting something sit at face value, if it isn't written exactly the way you want to hear it.



He and I are old cops and we are deal in facts. He and I have also trained more police service dogs than you can imagine and know the liability involved in bitework of any kind. Asking questions of you is not being antagonistic because what you are advocating in previous posts is totally opposite than ANY other sport or police k9 trainer. You are out there pretty much alone.....This has nothing to do with something being written exactly the way we want to hear it. I have asked you questions in a proffessional manner and given you the opportunity to defend your position. We do not represent the PPD industry. We train and certify police service dogs. A BIG difference. We would be sued as well as get someone hurt if we trained dogs for bitework that were not rock solid. Not to mention the dogs are ineffective. See if this works..

1) You have posted that you do NOT wash out shy,timid dogs and that you believe that a dog like that can be trained in protection. true or false. 

2) You take the average person's dog regardless of the dog's breed,pedigree and temperament and train the dog in "protection" true or false

3) You have indicated that ANY GSD can be trained in protection,regardless, true or false

4) You take dogs that other trainers have washed out due to weak temperament,what we call nervy and train them
true or false

Now. These are relevant questions that you need to clarify because IF the above is true, you are training dogs that should not be trained and it is dangerous. this is why I am trying to give you the opportunity to clarify your statements. If all you are willing to do is get defensive and you refuse to justify your position in a logical manner, I will close the thread.


----------



## angelaw

Actually need to correct #2 as it could be considered a personal attack, and you have 15 min to edit a post. 

And now after all the bickering, I'm more confused than I was before on who's doing what. So I will no longer read this thread. But have fun on your debate.


----------



## DFrost

I would like to point out, I was not "summoned" to this discussion. I joined because of comments relating to training shy and timid dogs. I've never met Ms Ladylaw, and know her only through reputation. That's common in the police business. I seriously doubt she needs my approval or affirmation on any statement she makes relative dog training. Many times even police service dog trainers disagree. For example, I'm adamantly opposed to the use of pseudo or bark and hold. I've been in many discussions with other police trainers both in person and on forums. Those discussion never reached the point where we were disrespectful to each other. We happen not to agree on those, and there are other areas, of deployment or training. If I make a statement opposing something and someone asks for clarification, I'll do my best to do exactly that. I can't predict whether or not they'll ever agree with me, but at least they will be sure of my position. I don't take offense when someone disagrees with me. Like most trainers, that have not only been around awhile, but have immediate feedback on both their good work and mistakes, we are held accountable for what we do. As for this discussion, your defensive attitude cause more disharmony in a discussion that a disagreement with your or anyone elses techniques or methodology. I wish you success in what you're doing, but don't expect certain statements that raise questions to go unchallenged. That may work well for the uninitiated, not however, for experienced trainers.

DFrost


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WActually need to correct #2 as it could be considered a personal attack, and you have 15 min to edit a post.


That was a point being made, not an attack, but part of that point was to show how things can easily become attacks.



> Quote:And now after all the bickering, I'm more confused than I was before on who's doing what. So I will no longer read this thread. But have fun on your debate.


Those have been my sentiments EXACTLY, in that what was supposed to have been an attempt to be helpful was turned into bickering, but some people just don't get it!


----------



## ThreeDogs

I've often wondered the same (the original question 6 pages back) I'd love to do some PP work in the future with a dog. But have always been concerned about doing that with having so many children in my neighborhood and my nieces and nephews. 

Anyway the point of my post is to thank MrLeadFoot, your answer(s) where posted in such a way that I understood them completely and you managed to answer questions that I am sure would have come up later. 

Great posts!


----------



## MrLeadFoot

> Originally Posted By: DFrostI would like to point out, I was not "summoned" to this discussion.


You're right. I just looked back, I stand corrected. And thanks for your posts, they really have been welcomed. Sorry for the incorrect inference.


----------



## MrLeadFoot

Thanks for that. Things were getting so convoluted here, and I was beginning to wonder if things I was trying to share were getting lost!


----------

