# Help me perfect our raw diet. What am I missing?



## counter (Feb 20, 2009)

We've been feeding a foundation blend of Orijen Red Meat Formula, Innova EVO Red Meat Large Bites, and Wellness Core (Chicken). We mix in their supplements (glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM vitamin pills and Grizzly Bear Wild Alaskan Salmon Oil) with a can of grain-free 95% meat wet food. I have known that the raw diet is the best for dogs, but I've always heard it's more expensive and time consuming. Well, time and money are the 2 things we lack the most. I have always wanted what's best for my dogs, as I want them to be healthy and happy and live as long as possible. If raw is the best, then I knew eventually it's what I'd be feeding my dogs. I went to our holistic vet in Portland and he looked at what I'm feeding and urged that I switch to raw. He mentioned that, with raw (if done right), I wouldn't have to supplement glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM because they would get those supplements from the raw meat/cartilage. He said to continue the fish oil for omega 3 and 6 and EPA/DHA though, especially since my dogs don't like fish kibble/wet food. So, on his advice, I went to my holisitic pet store to research a possible switch to raw, and to pick up some starter taste test foods.

The people working at my pet store are very helpful, and they are feeding their dogs a raw diet. The vet recommended Columbia River Naturals raw meat since they're local up in Washington state and it would help me save money. The pet store workers said that the easiest way to save time is to mix the raw meat chub with Sojos grain-free fruit & veggie dog food mix, and transition it in with what I'm already feeding. They recommended feeding one meal a day of what we've already been feeding, and 1 raw meal a day. This would occur once they've made a full transition to a completely raw meal with no kibble and wet food. 

So, for their introduction to raw, I gave them their normal mix, but smaller portions, mixed with some raw meat and the Sojos. I added water to the Sojos and blended it in a food processor to break it down. I think next time I'll try to blend it without adding water first, then add water to reconstitute it. The pet store worker mentioned that the Sojos don't seem to break down in the dog's body unless you put them through a food processor. He said to blend it into a powder and then add it to the food. The food processor broke them down into smaller pieces, but not into a powder.

Anyways, the dogs gobbled the food down with lightning speed. That's great!! The vet and pet store workers mentioned that many dogs will not take to raw right away, and might even sniff and walk away from it. I was happy that my pups chowed down and then went over to the kitchen area where I prepared their meal and sat waiting and wanting more. They've never done this before! So, the big test is not how it went in to their bodies, but how it will come out tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully they don't get the runs. 

So, what am I missing? Eventually I want to get the organic plain yogurt to blend in, and use the food processor to blend our own veggies to mix with the raw meat chubs. I want to ensure that I'm giving them a complete meal that will give their bodies everything it needs. I've heard that blueberries are good, cabbage, etc. I was told to stay away from most fruits, especially citrus, and to avoid onion, garlic, potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, flavored yogurts, etc.

Here are my basic questions as a new raw feeder:

1. Should I really cut out the glucosamine supplements? I'm using these as preventative maintenance so there are no problems later in life. These dogs have no issues and are perfectly healthy, and getting tons of exercise daily (we run/walk 6-9 miles daily seven days a week).

2. Is there a list of good veggies/fruits and bad veggies/fruits to add to the raw diet?

3. Are some raw meats better than others? In my 1-day of research experience, I've noticed there are meat with bones, meat without bones, meat with veggies, and meat with veggies and bones. 

4. With kibble, I've always read that beef is the "best" meat for dogs to eat. Is that the same with raw? I know they should get their protein from various meat sources and not stick with the same kind over and over.

5. What else do you recommend that I look into or what else should I know that I haven't mentioned already?

6. I've been feeding 3 small meals a day. Should I change this? Some people mentioned 2 half meals, one raw and one non-raw.

7. For a complete raw meal, how much should I be feeding? About the same portions as a kibble meal as far as cups/weight? Do they need more or less of the raw to equal non-raw meals?

8. Do you feed an exclusive raw diet? So far, everyone has recommended keeping kibble and the wet food in their diet. I saw that Nature's Variety brand recommends a rotation from wet to dry to raw. What's best for the dogs?

9. Is it cheaper to go to a local butcher and get raw meat leftovers to help save money? Or is it best to buy the food already in the tubes that's meant for a raw diet? My wife and I have been vegan/strict vegetarian for 15 years now, so it's not like we have meat laying around in our freezers or fridge, nor do we have much experience buying meat or shopping at a butcher store. If it's cheaper and still good quality to get raw meat from a butcher, I would be willing to check into that. I just don't want them to choke on bones or anything.

I think that's it for now. If I can think of anything else, which I'm sure I will since I so new to this and very paranoid, I'll add it to this thread. I only want what's best for my dogs, and I'll be monitoring how this raw food affects them and their stool. I hope this works out for us, saves us time and money somehow, and prolongs the life of the dogs. I guess if this avoids vet bills down the road, then that's where they money would get saved! Ha.

Thanks in advance for any and all help, guidance, opinions and assistance!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Hi Kevin

Lots of comments and question in your post, lets see what I can come up with for you 



counter said:


> I have known that the raw diet is the best for dogs


Not necessarily. All dog are different and what's best for one is not for another. But I do believe that fresh foods are a healthier option to the processed pet foods.



counter said:


> He said to continue the fish oil for omega 3 and 6 and EPA/DHA though


Fish oils are great for omega 3s and epa/dha but do not supply omega 6s unless you buy a special product that states such. Most meats are very high in omegas 6s so plenty should be provided through diet, sometimes too much which is why it's important to supplement the fish oils to aid in the balance of the two.



counter said:


> The vet recommended Columbia River Naturals raw meat since they're local up in Washington state and it would help me save money. The pet store workers said that the easiest way to save time is to mix the raw meat chub with Sojos grain-free fruit & veggie dog food mix, and transition it in with what I'm already feeding.


I find that there are two primary schools of thought in what constitutes a balanced raw diet and what you personally believe will greatly influence what you think of the above statements.

One school of thought is feed a variety of fresh, healthy foods, which you can buy commercially as you mentioned in tubes and such or do-it-yourself where you follow categories of meat and certain percentages of each category, and that through this variety balanced is achieved over time.

Reading the sites of River Naturals and Sojos they both appear to support the above approach.

But my own personal belief is different so I wouldn't feed either of the above foods. I believe that you do achieve balance over time but that the nutrients have to be there in the first place in order to do this. How you know the nutrients are there is to learn what nutrients your dog needs, what nutrients are in the foods you chose to feed, compare the two and supplement the difference. 

I wrote more about this here, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/85948-how-i-create-balance-homemade-diet.html

If I were to want to save time I would but one of the commercial raw diets that is balanced to nutritional standards- but- this will not save you money as commercial raw is expensive.



counter said:


> Eventually I want to get the organic plain yogurt to blend in, and use the food processor to blend our own veggies to mix with the raw meat chubs. . . I've heard that blueberries are good, cabbage, etc. I was told to stay away from most fruits, especially citrus, and to avoid onion, garlic, potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, flavored yogurts, etc.


Blueberries are great for antioxidants which are important with raw diets as the higher fat content increases free radicals within the body. Yogurt has beneficial bacteria if your dog tolerates lactose. Some dogs like fruits and bananas can be a good source of potassium. I feed potatoes as a staple and don't feel they should be avoided at all. They provide a quick source of energy with the added bonus of potassium, magnesium and natural vit c. Potatoes are the only veggie I feed (well they do get a small amount of carrot and sweet potato). Keep in mind that most veggies will loosen the stool, although I do not find potatoes to do this as I do not feed the skins.

Here are my basic questions as a new raw feeder:



counter said:


> 1. Should I really cut out the glucosamine supplements? I'm using these as preventative maintenance so there are no problems later in life. These dogs have no issues and are perfectly healthy


I personally don't believe joint supplement prevent, so for this reason I would not give this supplement to a healthy dog.



counter said:


> 2. Is there a list of good veggies/fruits and bad veggies/fruits to add to the raw diet?


Good is individual and for bad just stay away from the standard no nos.



counter said:


> 3. Are some raw meats better than others? In my 1-day of research experience, I've noticed there are meat with bones, meat without bones, meat with veggies, and meat with veggies and bones.


Better, no. More nutritious, yes. Bones are important for calcium and phosphorous. If not feeding bones, both would need to be supplemented.



counter said:


> 4. With kibble, I've always read that beef is the "best" meat for dogs to eat. Is that the same with raw? I know they should get their protein from various meat sources and not stick with the same kind over and over.


Similar answer as above. Red meats are more nutrient dense and a little can go a long ways for providing your dog what it needs. You can feed the same protein over and over as long as the nutrient needs are being met. Some dogs need this style of repetition due to allergies or intestinal issues.



counter said:


> 6. I've been feeding 3 small meals a day. Should I change this? Some people mentioned 2 half meals, one raw and one non-raw.


You will find many different opinions/answers on this. I feed 2 meals a day- am is potatoes and egg, pm is potatoes and all their meat for the day. The pm meal is much larger and more satisfying. This fits my dogs and our schedules. There isn't one right way.



counter said:


> 7. For a complete raw meal, how much should I be feeding? About the same portions as a kibble meal as far as cups/weight? Do they need more or less of the raw to equal non-raw meals?


I base amount on calories, others do % of body weight, say 2%. Raw foods contain a lot of water and you will feed more by weight than kibble due to the water.



counter said:


> 8. Do you feed an exclusive raw diet? So far, everyone has recommended keeping kibble and the wet food in their diet. I saw that Nature's Variety brand recommends a rotation from wet to dry to raw. What's best for the dogs?


I do. I want to stay away from processed dog foods which is part of the reason I feed raw so I would not want to incorporate both. Maybe people tell you to keep both as they know the dog food is balanced and with variety raw you just don't know. 



counter said:


> 9. Is it cheaper to go to a local butcher and get raw meat leftovers to help save money? Or is it best to buy the food already in the tubes that's meant for a raw diet? My wife and I have been vegan/strict vegetarian for 15 years now, so it's not like we have meat laying around in our freezers or fridge, nor do we have much experience buying meat or shopping at a butcher store. If it's cheaper and still good quality to get raw meat from a butcher, I would be willing to check into that. I just don't want them to choke on bones or anything.


I wouldn't get the leftovers, but I would go to the butcher. It will save you money. Some people like organic or free range meats, so if that's important to you ask and price those options. I just buy regular ol people food. Going to a butcher often requires buying in bulk so keep that in mind too as a freezer would be needed.

Whew, that was a lot. Hope it helps


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

check local yahoo raw feeding groups WAzzuOR_BARF : Washington/Oregon BARF also you can go to Willamette valley meats for dog meat but you have to buy bulk.study up on this.and do your own.dogs really have no need for vegs .also meats on burnside is a good pet store


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

I would also do some reading on the carb issue.when I feed them to my crew they act all ADHA.but either way it beats ANYTHING in a bag.also I really don't think there is a cheap AND easy way.as far fish I do a lot of canned mackerel about 1.50 a can at winco.also green tripe is something to look in to


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