# Unfortunate incident



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

We had a sad and scary incident today. My two sons were outside scooping up poop. All three dogs were out. My husband and I were inside changing out of church clothes before we went outside with them.

Last week a new family moved in next door. We have not had a chance to meet them yet. Well, they have a miniature pinscher which managed to dart out the door and into my yard. He ran at my small female and bared his teeth and growled. Bella ran away cause she's scared of her own shadow. But 
Harley my 100 lb male ran over and rolled the dog onto her back and had his mouth around her neck though not clamped down as attested to by my boys and a houseguest of the neighbors. When my husband opened the door Harley just let the dog up and it ran away. Lady ran it to vet where she said it had puncture wounds and needed surgery for a hernia?

Has anything like this happened to anyone else? I feel terrible that their dog was hurt but it ran into MY yard growling and baring teeth. But I feel like since Harley is a GSD and big he's going to be blamed. We are so upset about this.


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if it happened on your property your dog should be safe from any law enforcement issues
now if your dog chased it into its own yard and it happened there thatd be an issue

if your yard is not fenced now would be a great time to think about one if you can erect one


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> if it happened on your property your dog should be safe from any law enforcement issues
> now if your dog chased it into its own yard and it happened there thatd be an issue
> 
> if your yard is not fenced now would be a great time to think about one if you can erect one


It was most definitely on my property. We have an electric fence which keeps my dogs in. Obviously it doesn't keep others out  my dogs are quite friendly. Our other neighbors dog has gotten out and come over to okay and they all just run and play. 

However, as it was described this dog charged teeth bared. 

I think we will end up having to get a fence but I don't know where we will get money for it.


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

If you are sure your dog will respect the fence, least expensive way is the welded wire fence at Home Depot. Search Results for*fencing wire*at The Home Depot along with the T-posts. Easy DIY project.


----------



## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

that's where my worry is with electric fences and why I haven't really have pursued one.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Make sure you talk to their vet and confirm the puncture wounds and ask them why they think a hernia was caused.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

hernia detected after the examination? Neighbors should be happy they had a vet go over their dog so they knew of other medical conditions....NOT caused by your dog rolling theirs.
Maybe they should go in with you on a fence to keep the property separated.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Yea, a hernia is not caused by being rolled over, sounds as if the dog probably had a hernia already and being new neighbors most likely the vet had not seen this dog before and told them about the hernia. Puncture marks where exactly?
Personally, since their dog came into your yard, I would no offer to pay the vet bill. There dog was off leash, out of their control and came and confronted your dogs in your yard with an e fence. Not your problem


----------



## Rocket (May 3, 2014)

Did the neighbors file a police report?


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

me thinks harley showed great restraint.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

Twyla said:


> If you are sure your dog will respect the fence, least expensive way is the welded wire fence at Home Depot. Search Results for*fencing wire*at The Home Depot along with the T-posts. Easy DIY project.


We live in a subdivision where everything has to be approved by an architectural control committee so unfortunately that is not an option.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Make sure you talk to their vet and confirm the puncture wounds and ask them why they think a hernia was caused.


Any clue if this is within my legal right to get this info without going through my neighbors? Like is there HIPAA for dogs?


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> hernia detected after the examination? Neighbors should be happy they had a vet go over their dog so they knew of other medical conditions....NOT caused by your dog rolling theirs.
> Maybe they should go in with you on a fence to keep the property separated.


Yes, the reason they rushed her to the vet was because there was a bulge in the dogs abdomen after the incident. I don't see how Harley could give a dog a hernia. Maybe make the intestines come out through a pre-existing hole perhaps.

Out of neighborly concern, I would like to offer to pay at least some of the vet bills but I don't know if in, the eyes of the law, this is me admitting that Harley did something wrong.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Yea, a hernia is not caused by being rolled over, sounds as if the dog probably had a hernia already and being new neighbors most likely the vet had not seen this dog before and told them about the hernia. Puncture marks where exactly?
> Personally, since their dog came into your yard, I would no offer to pay the vet bill. There dog was off leash, out of their control and came and confronted your dogs in your yard with an e fence. Not your problem


Under our county law their dog is considered a dog "at large" as it was not under voice control or on leash and was off their property.

Also under our country law, Harley was within his right to protect "another person or animal (our other dog) from an intruder (animal or human) on our property.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

Rocket said:


> Did the neighbors file a police report?


I don't know. I was waiting for the Sheriff's office to come by all day but no one did. I also think it odd that they didn't ask for Harley's vet records to confirm he had all his vaccinations.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> me thinks harley showed great restraint.


oh yes, if Harley had wanted to hurt that dog, it would be dead. Just plain dead.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sad that this happened and it's nice of you to want to offer to pay half, however, I would not offer.

Reason being, 1. I doubt your dog caused a hernia. 2. It "may" be admitting some guilt and 3. let them pay the bill it might be a good lesson for them to keep their dog under control and out of other people's yards


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

If there was a puncture wound to the abdomen it could of easily caused an abdominal wall herniation. This would be obvious to any vet that it was caused by a larger dog attack. Blunt force trauma could also theoretically cause abdominal wall herniation, it could also cause a preexisting smaller umbilical hernia to open wider. However you usually see those in cases of hit by cars, no large dogs on small dogs


----------



## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Just food for thought. An incident similar to this happened to us. Unfortunately, it was our pup that got hurt by a stray dog coming into our yard.

Goodbye electric fence and hello 6' chain link fence. Worth every penny.

Lynn & Traveler


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

very nice to think to offer to help with vet bill, but no need, hopefully they will put up a fence around their yard.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

While you might feel bad for the owner, i would too, but the responsibility is on them. That dog could just as easily been run over by a car, kicked by a horse, or any number of things. Its up to the owner to contain their animals and keep them safe.


----------



## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Did they apologize to YOU!


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

huntergreen said:


> very nice to think to offer to help with vet bill, but no need, hopefully they will put up a fence around their yard.


 I'm trying not to judge them as I have never met them but in my experience, people with small dogs seem to think they don't need a fence. And they would have to have our signature for the HOA form so they have not applied for one so my guess is that they had no inclination to get one. Maybe that may change now.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Did they apologize to YOU!


certainly not. They did text the neighbor on their other side who I happen to be very close with saying that her dog got ATTACKED by my DOGS (all of them) which is wholly untrue.


----------



## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I agree with the others I would not pay for the bill even though I would feel very sorry for the other dog. An expensive lesson learned! Maybe this will save the dog's life one day, if this hadn't have happened it would have been another dog or car and her dog would be dead.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm just angry and sad that I have to put up a fence to essentially protect my dogs from other people's irresponsible behaviour


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i would not look at it that way
i would look at it as keeping my own dogs safe and away from being harmed


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> i would not look at it that way
> i would look at it as keeping my own dogs safe and away from being harmed


I do. I do. But it bothers me greatly that I think this will be perceived as me feeling that MY dogs are a danger to others. :sigh:


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I have a solid 6' privacy fence around the yard; I've had to do two "repairs" on it due to our neighbour’s dog. He's dug down twice now enough that he was able to almost stick his head into our yard; the owners leave him outside unsupervised constantly so he has plenty of time to work around it

The last time I told them flat out exactly what happened, the wife's response was "I can't see him doing that?!" and the husband just kept asking where the damage was. I explained myself multiple times and finally got an apology out of them but they haven't done anything to help even now even though I've spoken to them multiple times both nicely and directly  

I've paid for the extra boards, nails, topsoil, grass seed, etc not to mention HOURS of training both of my dogs to ignore that dog leaping, scratching, howling at the fence. I keep my dogs in the house as much as possible while they are outside enjoying the weather, and I take Delgado out on a leash if I do have to take him out when they're outside. Why? Because I look at it as an investment to keep MY dogs safe from their craphead of a dog or other neighbours who may complain. If the other owners aren't willing to be responsible sadly it will come down to you picking up the slack


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

I've called to get a company out for a fence estimate and started the process with my HOA. My husband is also calling a lawyer to make sure we don't do or say anything that would make up seems culpable just in case


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> I have a solid 6' privacy fence around the yard; I've had to do two "repairs" on it due to our neighbour’s dog. He's dug down twice now enough that he was able to almost stick his head into our yard; the owners leave him outside unsupervised constantly so he has plenty of time to work around it
> 
> The last time I told them flat out exactly what happened, the wife's response was "I can't see him doing that?!" and the husband just kept asking where the damage was. I explained myself multiple times and finally got an apology out of them but they haven't done anything to help even now even though I've spoken to them multiple times both nicely and directly
> 
> I've paid for the extra boards, nails, topsoil, grass seed, etc not to mention HOURS of training both of my dogs to ignore that dog leaping, scratching, howling at the fence. I keep my dogs in the house as much as possible while they are outside enjoying the weather, and I take Delgado out on a leash if I do have to take him out when they're outside. Why? Because I look at it as an investment to keep MY dogs safe from their craphead of a dog or other neighbours who may complain. If the other owners aren't willing to be responsible sadly it will come down to you picking up the slack


put stakes every 5 inches along the fence that go down about 2 feet, will keep neihgbors dog from digging into your pen.


----------



## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

Fences are great! They keep others out. I am sorry this happened, but a fence will be your best friend.


----------



## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> sad that this happened and it's nice of you to want to offer to pay half, however, I would not offer.
> 
> Reason being, 1. I doubt your dog caused a hernia.* 2. It "may" be admitting some guilt *and 3. let them pay the bill it might be a good lesson for them to keep their dog under control and out of other people's yards


Agreed on this statement...Especially if it sounds like you are/were not liable.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that you should confront your neighbor and tell her that the next time her dog gets into your yard, you will be calling Animal Control. It is her responsibility to contain her dogs, and you expect her to apologize for the incident that was traumatic for your sons. And if she wants to own such a vicious creature, she should invest in training and learn how to manage him.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I personally don't think you owe anything to your neighbor ... no apology ... no reimbursement of vet bill ... no nothing. Not sure, but if I were you I'd consider filing a report with either the local police department (with witness statements) or your local animal control.


----------



## Rocket (May 3, 2014)

arycrest said:


> I personally don't think you owe anything to your neighbor ... no apology ... no reimbursement of vet bill ... no nothing. Not sure, but if I were you I'd consider filing a report with either the local police department (with witness statements) or your local animal control.


This would be my first choice. Have a report on file first.

It sucks, but it's our legal system. If neighbor files a report and another incident happens (and this time your dog may be at fault or at least not on your property) and there's a paper trail showing a history of aggression...

If you file a report citing the other dog entering your property and being aggressive you will save yourself from possible future headache.....


----------



## Katey (Aug 11, 2010)

I think you are very smart for speaking with a lawyer, just to make sure you don't accidentally do something that can be perceived as accepting blame/responsibility for anything that happened. For that reason, I'd choose my words very carefully with them in the future, including when/if you inquire about their dog. I also second making sure you've created a favorable paper trail for yourself with the city. 

I also don't think you'd be out of line to follow up (very casually, or even through a friend) with the HOA, depending on the nature of your group, to suggest that with a number of new residents/pets, it might be a good time to briefly rehash (during an email, at a meeting) whatever rules are part of your HOA/municipality so that "everyone" is on the same page about expectations and responsibilities in the community -- which would include keeping your dog under leash or voice control when your property isn't fenced. I've never worked with an HOA, but in my condo complex, I've found that newer residents sometimes don't take our dog rules as seriously, but a "friendly reminder" of the rules tends to result in better clean-up and leashing at least for awhile.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I would report it somewhere before they do if the are telling people their dog was attacked. I would not pay or offer to pay any vet bills . I would also be interested on how they intend to keep it from happening again?


----------



## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Good boy Harley......if he wanted to kill that little dog he would have.....what a good boy


----------



## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

sparra said:


> Good boy Harley......if he wanted to kill that little dog he would have.....what a good boy


I agree, great restraint. 

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned it but you should report the case to animal control so it's a documented incident so if anything else happens in the future it's known the neighbors dogs previously trespassed.


----------



## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

lkcheertex said:


> I'm just angry and sad that I have to put up a fence to essentially protect my dogs from other people's irresponsible behaviour


No. The fence is to protect your pets from anything stumbling into your yard. Want to know what's irritating? Having to leash your dog inside his own fenced in yard because no matter how many signs you have up, city property allows people to do what they want on the sidewalk right next to your fence. I can't call and complain about people stopping at my fence and taunting my dogs. I can't complain about people who stop and stare at my house or take pictures, as long as their bodies are on the sidewalk. I had a guy pull INTO my driveway, go to the sidewalk and take a picture of my house. Nothing I could do about it. Putting up a fence to protect your animals shouldn't irritate you at all in my opinion.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

Rocket said:


> This would be my first choice. Have a report on file first.
> 
> It sucks, but it's our legal system. If neighbor files a report and another incident happens (and this time your dog may be at fault or at least not on your property) and there's a paper trail showing a history of aggression...
> 
> If you file a report citing the other dog entering your property and being aggressive you will save yourself from possible future headache.....


I had never thought of reporting THEM. But won't that make Harley look bad since he's essentially the one that caused the damage?


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

lkcheertex said:


> I had never thought of reporting THEM. But won't that make Harley look bad since he's essentially the one that caused the damage?


No, the damage happened on YOUR property. If anything Harley showed restraint enough not to kill the other dog and you are showing yourself as a honest and upfront owner who is following the right steps.

You can be very clear that you are not filing the report for any reason outside of reporting the incident to have it documented.


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Shade said:


> No, the damage happened on YOUR property. If anything Harley showed restraint enough not to kill the other dog and you are showing yourself as a honest and upfront owner who is following the right steps.


 
Wish there was "like" button.


----------



## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

lkcheertex said:


> I've called to get a company out for a fence estimate and started the process with my HOA. *My husband is also calling a lawyer to make sure we don't do or say anything that would make up seems culpable just in case*


That is the advice I would have offered.

In addition, do not offer to pay for anything. Do not even mention it. In fact, I probably wouldn't even be talking to the neighbors.

This occurred on your property. The dog was not chased to their property. Their dog (and by default the neighbors) are entirely at fault here. Their dog was 'at large', uncontrolled, and off leash.


----------



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

The lawyer we spoke to said that basically in the eyes of our local law our dog didn't do anything wrong. However, civilly you can basically sue whomever you want. He said to be very careful when speaking to them to not say we are sorry, or indicate in any way we feel responsible. He also said that we should not offer to pay.

Their dog is considered an "Animal at large means any animal not under restraint or voice control and off the property of its owner. If an animal has no known owner or keeper, then it shall be considered "at large" when on any public or private property. "

Also the law says: It shall be the duty of every owner of any animal to ensure that it is confined by way 
of a fence, restraint, or other enclosure including activated invisible fence or in some 
other physical manner under the control of a competent person so that it cannot 
wander off the real property limits of the owner, it being the intent of this article that 
all animals be prevented from leaving, while unattended, the real property limits of 
their owners. "

Also " Exception: An animal is not considered vicious if it attacks, bites or menaces: 
(1) Anyone attacking its owner; 
(2) Unlawful trespassers on the property of its owner; 

(3) Any person or animal that has tormented or abused it; 7 
(4) If it is defending its young or other animal; "


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well there ya go
they could sue but it would be thrown out


----------



## Rocket (May 3, 2014)

lkcheertex said:


> I had never thought of reporting THEM. But won't that make Harley look bad since he's essentially the one that caused the damage?


No. It's essentially "self defense" the way it would be for humans.



Shade said:


> No, the damage happened on YOUR property. If anything Harley showed restraint enough not to kill the other dog and you are showing yourself as a honest and upfront owner who is following the right steps.
> 
> You can be very clear that you are not filing the report for any reason outside of reporting the incident to have it documented.


This.



lkcheertex said:


> The lawyer we spoke to said that basically in the eyes of our local law our dog didn't do anything wrong. However, civilly you can basically sue whomever you want. He said to be very careful when speaking to them to not say we are sorry, or indicate in any way we feel responsible. He also said that we should not offer to pay.
> 
> Their dog is considered an "Animal at large means any animal not under restraint or voice control and off the property of its owner. If an animal has no known owner or keeper, then it shall be considered "at large" when on any public or private property. "
> 
> ...


Exactly this. DO NOT let your feeling bad for the neighbor dog cloud your judgement. This was not your fault nor is it your legal responsibility.

If it were me, I'd file a report. I would do that just so that it's on file because like your lawyer said anyone can sue anyone for any thing at any time. I would have a paper trail to back me up just in case they decided to try to recoup some of the incurred costs of the altercation.

I'm no lawyer nor am I versed in legal processes. That's just my opinion.


----------

