# possible breeding of a young dog



## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

Well here I am again. Posting on another forum as I was told at germanshepherdhome that I belonged on a forum like this because people here like to hack on eachother and use foul language (because I used S**t in a post) I was asking advice on how to approach this and I KNOW it is irrisponsible of what happened. I am already aware of that. Whats done is done, I can't turn back the clock now.

SO here is what happened. We were at a friend of a friends with my boy who is almost 11 months. He is from great German lines (accredited lines) obviously my boy isn't certified yet because he is only 11 months. I'm not saying he is the "best thing since sliced bread" (as I was informed on the other forum that I was stating that) He is a very good speciman FOR HIS AGE, in which I WANT to breed him when he is fully matured. Which will only be done IF he meets proper requirements given to me by other QUALIFIED breeders. (just to clear that up so I'm not stated as just breeding poopie dogs to make money, which I am totally against) There female had a heat a few weeks back and I should state (I WAS UNAWARE OF THIS AT THE TIME and was only informed after he mounted and tied her, since I left that out on my other post) They were outside playing for a few hours and everything was fine. I have never bred a dog before so I didn't know to look for the "signs" they say exist. (he was pawing her face, she his, running around, paying with a ball all the things I've saw dogs do of both or the same sex's when being social) So we go inside and I come out and they are tied together. I didn't pull them apart but we were both not impressed. (the bitch's owner and I)

The bitch is from "Czech" lines (not check as I was also told from that forum in which I typed my question up quickly and at 3am and upset) and she was set up to be bred in her next heat to another "Czech" line CERTIFIED stud. Thus the reason she was not impressed with the whole ordeal and neither was I as my boy is much to young, not matured and not cert. (WHICH I am fully aware of)

I simply asked if he was going to be ok, and what should we (as in me and the owner of the bitch) IF something becomes of this pregnancy. Since they actually did help out saying that it seems accidents take better than planned breedings. I am fully aware that not all dogs are breeding material but at my boys age he is showing that he is. But I will not know until he finish's maturing which it seems I can't state that enough.

I also stated that I didn't need to be jumped on about how irresponsible it was for this to happen. I already am fully aware of that. I am not an educated breeder nor did I say I was. I will be IF and or when it becomes time to breed my boy. I don't want to breed bad dogs that will further run the GSD lines and breed into the ground. It wasn't ment to happen and "oops' don't happen in life, so was insinuated.

I am getting the girls pedigree and certificates to look over if the breeding took. If not than thank goodness. I learned a lesson. Life is a journey of lessons to learn and we learned a big one. I will never stop educating myself about proper breeding practices even when I think I know everything I need to know about it. As you can never stop learning and new information is always coming up about various health issues, practices and many other things.

SO with that all I was asking is if my boy will be ok and what to do now? I was told he would be fine, I am still having him tested for Brucellosis in a month and then a month after that. Which I was informed it was to late, but IMO its better to know now then not know until I MIGHT breed him when he is of age, certified and fully developed. 

Why is it people come to forums to learn and get help, but it seems that people assume they are set out to breed bad puppies, ruin lines and over run shelters. Some people yes do it on purpose to make money. I am not doing that. Nor will I. And we are just assumed if we want to become a breeder that we should know it all already. We ask questions to learn, no one knows everything.

Well that is my story and I will see what you guys/girls have to say about it. I am just thinking of asking the owner of the bitch to terminate the pregnancy as I don't want to breed bad dogs and thats all I am accused of doing. I want strong lines, not weak ones and I will succeed with this IF he shows and proves this when he's older. I'm not just going to buy some bitch off the street and breed her to be a BYB and have my name attached to defects, bad lines, health problems and anything else that comes from bad breedings.

So I'm sure I should just leave it at that and not get educated on the subject as my last post wasn't good enough. If we don't ask questions we can't learn.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> ....... Posting on another forum as I was told at germanshepherdhome that I belonged on a forum like this *because people here like to hack on each other and use foul language (because I used S**t in a post)* I was asking advice on how to approach this and I KNOW it is irrisponsible of what happened. I am already aware of that. Whats done is done, I can't turn back the clock now.


 Not sure where that came from cause cursing is also not allowed on this site??



> SO with that all I was asking is if my boy will be ok and what to do now? I was told he would be fine, I am still having him tested for Brucellosis in a month and then a month after that. Which I was informed it was to late, but IMO its better to know now then not know until I MIGHT breed him when he is of age, certified and fully developed.


*So is your main question about health concerns for your male on this accidental breeding because he's so young?*


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Was there a question?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I was amazed at how many breeders had accidental breedings when I first got into breeding. Not often mentioned on forums. <grin> I have a brother and sister that I allow to run and play together and that is my biggest nightmare. So I am extremely paranoid. 

Your boy will be fine. Get the tests done but odds are in your favor. 

People that are involved in rescue are often very passionate about irresponsible breeding as well they should be. They are often the ones that clean up the messes and cry the tears when they are unable to save one or one thousand........... So try and cut them a little bit of slack, for the most part their heart is in the right place and you try and remember how many dogs they were unable to save that got their beginning just like this potential litter.

I would contact the owner of the bitch and offer to help screening homes ect if they decide not to abort/spay. The thing now I think is to concentrate on finding the best possible homes for the pups.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

The SV will certify hips at one year old and you can also get them prelimed with OFA at a year. At bare minimum I would do this if the pregnancy is confirmed and if the hip status will make any difference to the girls owner on allowing any pregnancy to continue have them shot now.

Just a thought.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Oh, and toughen up a little bit.  It was irresponsible and a lot of people are going to call it that way. Trust me, I have had the dog community call me a lot worse a time or two.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> there is also another board, germanshepherds.com, a large commercial board where people love to argue for their own agenda and defend their beliefs, and while you might get banned for foul language on that board, they do have a large number of newbies there where you might find support that more closely matches your level of experience.


Ok, now I figured out that part of the initial post... Question about a possible young breeding..... - GermanShepherdHome.net


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

KittyKat said:


> Well here I am again. Posting on another forum as I was told at germanshepherdhome that I belonged on a forum like this because people here like to hack on eachother and use foul language (because I used S**t in a post)
> .


Um, no. You were NOT directed here. You were directed to the pedigree database message board, where pretty much anything goes. That is a completely different place, unrelated to this board. That sort of language and attitude is not welcome on this board either, nor will it be allowed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kittykat, you were given great advice on the other board, why bring it here? Seems to me as if you are trying to get sympathy or something, not sure you'll find it here either...oh, of course once the pups are born everyone will oooh and aaaah over them like they are the oops litter that was born a few days ago, another young female(without health testing) whose owner didn't know her intact male could get to her.
Hopefully this breeding didn't take, and your friend who owns the female can/should get the mismatch shot~that advice was given to the subject above, but the owner decided to go ahead with the litter anyway...her thoughts on it were the same as yours, whats _done is done_, but she used its _over and done, _ironic.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/132946-over-done.html


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Posting on the Pedigree Data Base on such a topic.....is like swimming with sharks, while bleeding from an open wound.....
You will NOT be safe there....
Take the good advice that was given from (both) the forum boards I've seen this topic posted at.......
It was good advice..."perhaps NOT what you WANTED to hear"...but it was good advice regardless.
JMO


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Not to sound rude ( because we all know my feelings on that)...

But should you even be considering breeding a dog that is only CKC registered? No AKC????? 
I assume that you being in Ontario, that your CKC is the canadian, not the continental? ( spelling , i know)

Just asking..


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## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. The replies I got after my long post and clearing things up were more helpful than the ones before it. 

I was not looking for sympathy or anything of the sort. I'm not the kind of person who even looks for it, as its words givin' sometimes with an empty meaning just trying to make someone feel better. In which for a death/sickness you were involved in its acceptable anywhere else in life it isn't. When my mom passed away and suffered for two years from cancer, I thought people saying "I'm sorry for your loss" was the biggist waste of time. It happened, wasn't anything anyone could do about it, if caught earlier I'm sure there could have been. I'm sorry from the doctors would have been acceptable because they would have something to say I'm sorry about (not being able to offer more treatment). It says that in my original post in this thread I wasn't looking for that. I wanted answers, in which the answers I got on the 4th page of my post on the other forum are the ones I was looking for. I don't expect breeding to be easy, nothing in life is easy. I needed help & guidance on the subject and that's what these forums are supposed to be about. Different forums have different advice and opinions and if they didn't why bother having different ones?

But from what I am reading I need to talk to the owner of the bitch and get some testing done on my boy. 

If this miss-match shot can result in the bitch not carrying puppies again... I'm sure I will be sued or something for this. She paid 2000$ American for that bitch and I'm sure she's not going to miss out making that money back with a breed worthy female from a good strong line. I will if the puppies took get said info and I will send it to "proper" breeders for there advice on the bitch. As well as my boys info. 

If they take for sure I'm going to be screening homes for people interested in these puppies. As well as I'm sure she will be to. This bitch was going to be used to breed police dogs for the state of Michigan. Her next heat and I think she was being sent away for that. People will also be signing contracts for said puppies and I WILL go and visit said homes even if the bitch's owner will not and doesn't want anything to do with them after just plainly selling them. This is half my mistake and if she doesn't feel the same way I do about this then I guess we have more of a problem then just an accidental breeding. I am prepared if I breed my boy or ever become a "breeder" to take responsibility for all the puppies. Even from my boys litter I had asked the breeder if any of his siblings were in my area. And there is one and I talk to her about once a month. And they wern't even my litter I just wanted to make sure that they were all taken care of properly. 

I have re-homed many animals in the last 15 years and I am prepaired to keep doing it for the rest of my life. If any of those re-homed animals need to come back I am prepared to do that as well. I will take them back and people are told this upon recieving the animal, no matter what it is. 

I know there is much room for improvement and I am willing to go that extra mile IF I decide I want to breed my boy or become a breeder. I am dedicated to this breed and want to help make it the BEST it can be if my boy is good enough when he matures. 

And yes MY boy is CKC, from what I've been told he only needs to be CKC because I'm not showing him in the US. I could be wrong as I haven't looked up that info yet. But I am adding it to my list of things to read up on. If I plan on breeding him (if it happens) it would be to another CKC girl from Canada or a girl with duels. The bitch is only AKC as she is an American dog and is being bread in the US.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you've gotten alot of great advice, and if I were you, I would definately be talking to the female's owner to find out her take on things.

In the end, SHE will be the determining factor on how much involvement she's willing to allow you to have IF her female is pregnant. It may be "your" male involved, but IF she is pregnant, in the end, she will be the one making the decisions since this was an "oops" breeding, they are not registerable and she owns the female. 

I don't know, but she may be able to come after you for 1/2 the cost since it was both your responsibility..

anyhow, I would talk to the female's owner to figure out what her plans on if her dog is pregnant.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you've gotten alot of great advice, and if I were you, I would definately be talking to the female's owner to find out her take on things.
> 
> In the end, SHE will be the determining factor on how much involvement she's willing to allow you to have IF her female is pregnant. It may be "your" male involved, but IF she is pregnant, in the end, she will be the one making the decisions since this was an "oops" breeding, they are not registerable and she owns the female.
> 
> ...


This is what I was going to say^^. In the end it's really not up to you. 

And not for nothing...but I consider this to be even MORE their fault than yours. It was their bitch, and they should have known if she was in heat and safeguarded against pregnancy. I have 3 intact males hanging out in our house with our intact female who goes into heat every 4 months. No unwanted pregnancies here because I KNOW when she's in heat and take precautions to keep everyone separated. Seems silly to me that they would leave her unattended in the yard with an intact male. I mean it's not like your dog forced himself on her...

Anyway. Get your dog tested to be on the safe side. You probably won't have any control over the puppies or the bitch.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Since your dog is CKC registered you could get his AKC registration and allow the pups to be registered. At least that would help them find home easier.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Daphne, even if she did get an akc reg on him,,(and I'm not up on registering breeding practices here ),,would puppies out of a 10mth old male still be registerable?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yep, most of us there are also here. 

Over there your boy was out of sight for a few minutes and here they were in the back yard together for a few hours which makes more sense. Now, you did not know that she was anywhere near a heat cycle, so we can clearly blame the bitch's owner. 

I am not a fan of leaving a puppy with an adult that it does not live with and not supervise, but whatever, they are dogs afterall, and not everyone is as paranoid about theirs as some of us are.

I think that the same person that directed you to pedigree database also directed you here with the warning of foul language. 

What you will probably get here is what you got there x more people. There are newbies, some of whom feel all offended when anyone says boo to anyone else. I would be very surprised if this thread hasn't already hit the notify list. 

There is absolutely no excuse like "what is done is done." That really shuts everyone up and keeps the thread happy, happy, joy, joy, where the grass grows and the puppy dog wags its tail.

As far as I am concerned, the bitch's owner should have known better. She really should not be happy about this, if indeed the bitch is 2.5 years, with hips and elbows checked and the breeder breeds for police service dogs. Shame on her for not being more careful with her bitch. 

Not only is she in for a lot of work (if she is a breeder she knows it), and the puppies will NOT be worth the litter would be worth if she would have bred her to a stud chosen specifically for this purpose -- certs in place, titles, czech lines, and the whole nine yards (people who try to go twenty when they need nine, often end up punting).

Well as we said your dog should not be negatively affected. People who do not want to own a stud dog sometimes do not want to allow this because there are some behaviors that can be more likely in intact stud dogs, but with proper attention to training/socialization it should not become a problem. 

As for your dog's specific qualities. Well, he is almost eleven months old. His adult temperament and physical characteristics are not completely developed. He may turn out to be an awesome dog, and he may surprise you by showing an unexpected characteristic yet. I bred a yearling once. I would not do that again. But it was not the end of the world either. You CAN get prelims now if you want. 

I think that what you do for the bitch owner depending on applying for AKC registration, getting hips pre-limed (if you intend to breed you will need to redo them when the dog is old enough to be certified), really depends on what kind of breeder this person is, how much of a friend she is, and what is best for the puppies. 

If your dog is considerably better than the bitch, and you believe that she tricked you into a free stud service so she can sell the pups for a few hundred bucks, then I do not know if you should go out of your way to get them registered.

It will probably be better for this lot of puppies. Probably. She can sell them for more money and MAYBE get them better homes. If she holds one or more back, she has registered dogs for free and will breed indiscriminately and charge more money for them, then maybe this is NOT best for these puppies. 

So if you have questions about her motivations, than you want to really consider carefully how you want to proceed. If she hasn't already, she will probably try to encourage you to register your dog AKC.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I don't understand WHY she'd bring a dog in season around an unaltered male? I just don't get it. From what I understand, if a bitch is in heat, you keep them home and away from other dogs, just in case.. am I wrong here? 

I hope things work out for the OP, either way.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

KittyKat said:


> There female had a heat a few weeks back and I should state (I WAS UNAWARE OF THIS AT THE TIME and was only informed after he mounted and tied her, since I left that out on my other post) They were outside playing for a few hours and everything was fine. I have never bred a dog before so I didn't know to look for the "signs" they say exist. (he was pawing her face, she his, running around, paying with a ball all the things I've saw dogs do of both or the same sex's when being social) So we go inside and I come out and they are tied together. I didn't pull them apart but we were both not impressed. (the bitch's owner and I)


It *sounds* like from the initial post that they bitch may have been experiencing some kind of split heat? Cause if she had had a heat a few weeks back she shouldn't typically have been in heat again. 

Regardless. When you own an intact bitch it's your responsibility to keep an eye on things. JMO.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Yep, that's why I got Zeva fixed already. Yeah, she's beautiful and so far w/in what they call breed standard, size and temperment, but she's not AKC and isn't going to be titled or showed. 

When ppl hear that I'm gonna have two GSD's of the opposite sex, they assume that I'm gonna bred the right off the bat. I let them know she's fixed.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

FuryanGoddess said:


> Yep, that's why I got Zeva fixed already. Yeah, she's beautiful and so far w/in what they call breed standard, size and temperment, but she's not AKC and isn't going to be titled or showed.
> 
> When ppl hear that I'm gonna have two GSD's of the opposite sex, they assume that I'm gonna bred the right off the bat. I let them know she's fixed.


People think that when the see me walking Molly & Tanner.


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## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

HEY!! Just letting everyone know that nothing happened from this accident!! So no babies from my young man. Who now is almost a "man" he will be two at the end of June. I am thinking of doing some SCH work with him, my friend Liz kinda got me interested in it. He's in working service right now and doing really well and we love it there, but just to have some time with my friends and helping them out and having us learn some new things! 

Thanks to everyone again!


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## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

*schH


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Where are you located? There are great clubs in ontario
http://www.gsscc.ca/regions-and-clubs/ontario.aspx


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

old thread... however that really has to be the best news I have ever heard about an "oops" breeding.


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## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm in the Windsor area...... They have an schH club BUT no website.... and its an hour from here.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I think that is the club Elisabeth and Stark go to.


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## KittyKat (Nov 19, 2009)

Elisabeth goes to a different one... .she isn't living at home (25 minutes from me) right now. She is still up at school working and doing SChH up there...... But I'm sure when she does come home she will return to that one.


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