# Dog park blues...



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

For a long time now I've talked about taking my dog daily or nearly daily to the dog park. And for the most part it's always been good. But in the past month or so it's become a bit more trying to say the least!

Nyx is now 22 months, and has gone through her second heat recently. She seems to have emerged from that a little more aggressive toward 5-7 month old puppies for some reason, and it has caused some issues recently.

First, about 2 weeks ago I was contacted by Animal Control because a lady with a 5 month old huskie had complained about my dog's aggressive behavior. I freely gave this woman my dog's name and my contact info, but was a little shocked to get a call from A.C. the very next day!

My dog was simply schooling her puppy, which I saw several other dogs do that same day, and to their credit the A.C. officer who contacted me totally understood. But it happened!

Tonight, the same thing happened with a different puppy, but this time the owner confronted me directly. Good for him! We discussed it, I completely understand where he's coming from, so we were able to talk it through and parted on good terms.

The thing is, it's partially a dog thing that none of us can control or dictate, and it's partially my fault for not watching more closely. I promised to do better in the future, but at the same time explained why totally squashing this behavior might be counter productive in the long run...

My dog isn't hurting his puppy, just schooling it. The rough stuff will end of its own accord if we let it...I promised to curtail it somewhat in the meantime, and as I said, we parted amicably so it's all good...for now. But I am going to have to watch my dog more closely for a bit...

It has been interesting to watch my dog's behavioral changes over time. It's totally clear that just because a dog has been going to the dog park for many months, it doesn't mean that today will be the same as it's always been...maturity changes things.

I sincerely hope we can continue to go so my dog can run around off-leash, but time, and her behavior will dictate that. Not my wishes...


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm going through the same thing with Mei since her first heat. She's more vocal when she's playing now with other dogs. Dogs her size I dont mind too much but the little puppies, I dont like it. So far, I just say her name sternly and it stops. 

I don't really have any advice. Just going through a similar situation. Just keep a close eye on her at the dog park.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

The day someone else's dog corrects my puppy, we are going to have issues. I'd never allow my dog to correct someone else's puppy, nor allow my puppy to be corrected. 
1. I dont trust you to be dog savvy enough to know anything about dog behavior. Ill assume you are a fur mom. 
2. Things can escalate quickly. Especially at a dog park. 
3. I'd be mortified if my dog hurt some unknown puppy, or if I was making some other owner uncomfortable because I claimed to be dog savvy, because I read it somewhere.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Tim it were me I'd make plans to get together elsewhere with a couple of the friends you've made at the dog park along with their dogs.Don't wait for a serious situation to befall you and Nyx.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have no advice, just moral support. I watched Sabi teach dozens of pups and young dogs, I trusted her judgement, but I can see it freaking people out. 
I can tell you that several of my more experienced friends had commented that specific to GSD's the females show a notably higher tendency to dog aggression then other breeds. In most breeds the males seem more prone. I have to say that my experience lends support to this, but since I am not that smart take it for what it's worth.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I wish you luck but I have to say it's about the same age I decided that dogs parks were no longer a good thing in our life. We stopped going and haven't looked back. I should have made that decision sooner to be honest. Just to many variables that can't be controlled.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Unfortunately for you Tim, you and your dog have been reported to the authorities. So he's in the system now. If something happens again and you're reported, your dog may have problems with the county or state in the future. (You've been warned.) In some places, worst case scenario...your dog will be put down. I would never have given my information to the other party if my dog didn't cause injury.

On another note, we've all talked about this ad nauseum...the dog park debate. This is exactly why I don't take my dog to the dog parks anymore. Incidents like these are bound to happen. And you may view it as harmless dog behavior, but there are always (uneducated/uninformed/unknowledgeable) people out there who don't see it that way. There are also people out there with GSD prejudices. It doesn't matter if your dog started the fight or not, because of the breed you will always get the blame, unless there are fair minded witnesses.

Also, I've never had a female dog so I don't know anything about heat cycles. But isn't that when they're "hormonal?" Is that the right time to bring her to the dog park? Not criticizing...just a legit question/concern. If it's not a an actual thing, then just ignore this last paragraph.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> The day someone else's dog corrects my puppy, we are going to have issues. I'd never allow my dog to correct someone else's puppy, nor allow my puppy to be corrected.
> 1. I dont trust you to be dog savvy enough to know anything about dog behavior. Ill assume you are a fur mom.
> 2. Things can escalate quickly. Especially at a dog park.
> 3. I'd be mortified if my dog hurt some unknown puppy, or if I was making some other owner uncomfortable because I claimed to be dog savvy, because I read it somewhere.


Good points actually. Can I assume that you don't and never have taken your dog to a dog park?

Dog savy or not, there are certain things that are sort of universal for all dogs...and one of these is dogs schooling older puppies. And by schooling I mean sort of putting them in their place rather roughly. I've seen lots of puppies go through this "hazing" and come out of it more confident and carefree around the same dogs that put them through it... 

Be that as it may, I will say that some people are uncomfortable when any dog does anything with their precious baby other than licking it in the face...but that just isn't reality. Dogs have a way. I don't claim to fully understand it, but they do, it's universal, they all get it. So as long as nobody is getting hurt, I'm more inclined to watch and let it go.

That being said, I recall how it felt when my pup was 6-7 months old and got picked on...so I'm definitely sympathetic to these puppy owners, and will do whatever I need to to make sure their puppy is not harmed in any way!

But I agree with you completely, I'd be mortified if my dog ever hurt a puppy also! I won't let that happen...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I have no advice, just moral support. I watched Sabi teach dozens of pups and young dogs, I trusted her judgement, but I can see it freaking people out.
> I can tell you that several of my more experienced friends had commented that specific to GSD's the females show a notably higher tendency to dog aggression then other breeds. In most breeds the males seem more prone. I have to say that my experience lends support to this, but since I am not that smart take it for what it's worth.


Funny you mention the training older dogs do with puppies. Right after this happened, one friend walked up and offered to "beat the guy up for me", and another couple of people commented on how much they appreciated my dog putting some schooling on their puppies. 

It's a mad mad world folks, everyone has a different level of experience...it's all good. I also trust my dog's judgement...to a point. And I'm also sensitive to the feelings of others. It's all good. I'll watch my dog more closely for now, but I am confident she won't ever hurt a puppy...it's just not in her temperment. An adult dog....not so much...given the "right" provocation in her mind...bad things could happen. But not with a puppy...


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'd be mortified if my dog ever hurt a puppy also! I won't let that happen...


This^^^^ 

As much as you will try you can't guarantee it won't happen. 

Our story...

We were actually leaving the dog park and about 40-50 feet away from the exit. A woman and dog I knew pretty well was entering the park. About 7-8 dogs rushed the entrance (as was common) to see the newcomer. Her dog got stressed and broke through the pack full of nervous vengeance. Barking, growling and baring teeth to get the pack off her. Now this was normally a calm dog that didn't cause any trouble that I had ever seen in the past. Then it happened in a split second. The dog veered and just attacked my girl, who was not part of or near the offending pack that had rushed the incoming dog. 
The attack was short and was stopped by a stern command from the owner and myself.
We immediately left the confines of the park and I looked over my girl. She had a bleeding bite between her shoulders. Information was exchanged and off to the vet we went. Fortunately she only needed 3 stitches. The other dogs owner offered to pay my vet bills. Being a fair minded person I only asked for half as I took on part of the responsibility of such an incident just by being in the dog park (and I knew her dog was acting out of fear/stress not true aggression). So I was out $150 and so was the other dogs owner because a dog got stressed by a pack of other dogs we weren't even engaged with in any way. Wrong place, wrong time. 

Yup my girls wound healed without complications. However, her temperament was forever changed that day. She pretty much dislikes female dogs now. She wasn't they way before the attack. 

So you will try but you probably won't be able to prevent an incident if it's going to happen. Dogs move fast.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Good points actually. Can I assume that you don't and never have taken your dog to a dog park?
> 
> Dog savy or not, there are certain things that are sort of universal for all dogs...and one of these is dogs schooling older puppies. And by schooling I mean sort of putting them in their place rather roughly. I've seen lots of puppies go through this "hazing" and come out of it more confident and carefree around the same dogs that put them through it...
> 
> ...


That's not exactly true, that dogs school other dogs or puppies in dog parks. I have been taking my dogs to _various_ dog parks for about_ fifteen years_ now, and no, people do not let their dogs _school_ other peoples' dogs/puppies, nor do they let them work things out. That must be something specific to the particular dog park that you go to. I don't let my own dogs school my other dogs or work things out. Once there is one dog fight, that is usually only the beginning. There most likely will be more of increasing intensity. 

You have repeatedly stated in the past that your dog plays rough and you let her because other dogs are playing with her rough. It has been mentioned in the past that excessive rough play will only escalate. Is that what you might be seeing? I wonder if you may be experiencing a couple of things with her. Is your dog's corrections actually _over_ corrections because of this? Is this why people are_ that_ upset with her behavior that it is becoming problematic? Or perhaps your dog is weary of other dogs hurting her and when she meets a strange dog, she feels compelled to school them before she gets hurt again?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That's not exactly true, that dogs school other dogs or puppies in dog parks. I have been taking my dogs to _various_ dog parks for about_ fifteen years_ now, and no, people do not let their dogs _school_ other peoples' dogs/puppies, nor do they let them work things out. That must be something specific to the particular dog park that you go to. I don't let my own dogs school my other dogs or work things out. Once there is one dog fight, that is usually only the beginning. There most likely will be more of increasing intensity.
> 
> You have repeatedly stated in the past that your dog plays rough and you let her because other dogs are playing with her rough. It has been mentioned in the past that excessive rough play will only escalate. Is that what you might be seeing? I wonder if you may be experiencing a couple of things with her. Is your dog's corrections actually _over_ corrections because of this? Is this why people are_ that_ upset with her behavior that it is becoming problematic? Or perhaps your dog is weary of other dogs hurting her and when she meets a strange dog, she feels compelled to school them before she gets hurt again?


I find your comments funny, because as I stated, my dog gets along with ALL dogs..if not friends she just gives them a wide berth. But she's very adept at reading and reacting to a newcomer. Whoever establishes themselves as the "boss". It's all good, they all do that initially.

The funny thing is, my dog is not at all being dominant or aggressive! Just a normal dog growing up with normal puppies! 

But hey, it's all good...


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I think dog parks in general are just an interesting dynamic. One of the dogs in my club does NOT tolerate other dogs well, especially females, and yet she's apparently just fine at a dog park, which I find weird. My girl tolerates other dogs well enough given they don't get in her face and loves little happy dogs, but she is not a dog park dog. It puts her on edge because males constantly believe they have the right to try and mount her, and I've never once taken her to a park close to her heat in either direction.

The other day while we were at club, one of the club members had his dog out who is a total sweet heart. Just a love bug of a shepherd. Ryka was nearby, and he has a profound interest in her.. she must be a babe in the dog world or something. He sniffs her and she sniffs back, and then they move on and it's fine. Until he comes back and sniffs again and then tries to put a paw on her shoulder. Ironically during this whole thing, I told my other club member that Ryka would not tolerate inappropriate behaviour, and that she would end up snapping at his dog if he didn't pull him back. To which he replied, "Ah he'd never do that!"

2 seconds later his dog pushed Ryka's comfort levels, and just as I was about to remove her since he wouldn't, she gave him a nice air snap by the face and scared him so bad he rammed into his owner and hurt him.

It's good that you know your dog, but I'd definitely keep a closer eye now. You just never know the other dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> First, about 2 weeks ago I was contacted by Animal Control because a lady with a 5 month old huskie had complained about my dog's aggressive behavior. I freely gave this woman my dog's name and my contact info, but was a little shocked to get a call from A.C. the very next day!
> 
> 
> Tonight, the same thing happened with a different puppy, but this time the owner confronted me directly. Good for him! We discussed it, I completely understand where he's coming from, so we were able to talk it through and parted on good terms.





tim_s_adams said:


> I find your comments funny, because as I stated, my dog gets along with ALL dogs..


First you said she is having problems to the point of her being reported to Animal Control and then she did a repeat performance with another puppy. Then you say she gets along with ALL dogs. 

Umm... not sure what this thread is about any more.



tim_s_adams said:


> The funny thing is, my dog is not at all being dominant or aggressive! Just a normal dog growing up with normal puppies!





tim_s_adams said:


> She seems to have emerged from that a little more aggressive toward 5-7 month old puppies for some reason, and it has caused some issues recently.


Okay she is more aggressive towards puppies but she is not at all aggressive? See my previous comment. Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of a puppy pass?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> Okay she is more aggressive towards puppies but she is not at all aggressive? See my previous comment. Just out of curiosity, have you ever heard of a puppy pass?


Yeah, I was just going to mention that! I saw a film on Nat Geo Wild a few years back about dog behaviour. Obviously the all-positive crowd had something to do with it, because it tried to debunk that dominance exists. It showed a younger dog, a half-grown pup, humping an adult dog, and used that as proof that humping was not about dominance, because the older dog tolerated it.

Well anyone with an ounce of knowledge about dog body language would have noticed how stiff the adult dog's posture was. It clearly said, "I'm just putting up with this nonsense because you are a PUPPY! Give it a few more months, buster, and you are going to find out this is NOT polite behaviour!"

But the clueless idiots that put the film together had NO IDEA...


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Hey Tim, you're in Colorado, don't you have access to public lands to run your dog? We use national forest, Blm, and state land often, my dogs love it and come home exhausted both physically and mentally. Oh yeah, much less drama too, lol!


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

Most gsd's don't make good dog park dogs. They tend to play a little to rough. Tasha loves all living things and would never attack or intentionally harm another animal, but, she can play rough. That tends to scare alot of other people who aren't familiar with the breed. It would scare me if I wasn't familiar with gsd's! Her looks alone scare people, that's the protection part for me! It might be a good idea likes been suggested and have play dates with other dogs matched to your dog's play style. Keep in mind that you are dog savy, but alot of other people aren't. Good luck!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I think with the two incidences and your girl's maturity, it's time to reassess the environment. I'm sure you know that at about the 5mo-6mo old mark pups begin to lose their puppy shenanigan license. 

I have recently all but stopped walking my boy in my neighborhood due to new neighbors and their dogs. He and I both love walking around town. I miss the basically carefree walks that took so long to make it carefree (i.e. training him to ignore and not react) but the two new wild cards that moved in makes it just not worth the risk that both dogs and the attitudes of the neighbors create. I can keep my guy well behaved and in control, I can minimize possibilities but when the environment and the chances and risk probability changes, reassessment was needed.

You work hard with your Nyx to give her what she needs and I think right now, she needs your good judgement in keeping her safe, maybe not from other dogs but from the owners who don't see things as you do. 

Obviously my experience is much different from yours but the need to reevaluate the environment that we put them in is the same.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There was a comment somewhere back there about adult dogs should school puppies or that was a fact of life or something to that effect.

Here's my take on that-- an appropriate adult can be useful to teaching an adolescent manners. But I would never in a million years want a strange dog doing that to my dog, or would I let my dog do it to a strange puppy. This is something that can sometimes be useful when you know all the dogs involved well. I let an older male put my young male in his place because he was a dog I knew well and I knew i could trust him to do it and it was a useful experience I feel. 

My old male who died was near to doing it with my younger male and I would have let that happen because I think it would have been useful and appropriate and I could trust that dog so much. But he died before it happened. So I let the other dog do it because I had known that dog for years and I knew what he would do and why. I'd NEVER want this sort of thing going on between two strange dogs.

My female was sort of appropriate at one time a loooong time ago. Until the day she wasn't. So that was the other caution I wanted to give you Tim--- you say nobody is getting hurt in these altercations but just be aware that one day there may be stitches when there never were before. And my girl is a dog who will NEVER be allowed to "school" anybody because it won't be appropriate. She did some squish and growls to other dogs when she was younger, and she would not do that unless they had done something really stupid to her. But at some point it became I throw you down and bite you. I don't think that had to happen or necessarily would have happened if I had handled her better than I did. I would never in a million years do now the things I did with her when she was young.

My young male had a kind of tactless adolescent phase but I never let him approach a strange dog to be "schooled" in that entire time. I would never have just let him run amok in a dog park situation and be a tool to other dogs because that would either upset the other dogs or he would get his rear handed to him by someone which as much testosterone as he had in his head right then could have led to a dog fight. All things I don't want in our lives.

He has grown up to be socially a really nice dog, I'm proud of how many different dogs he can interact with.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> The day someone else's dog corrects my puppy, we are going to have issues. I'd never allow my dog to correct someone else's puppy, nor allow my puppy to be corrected.
> 1. I dont trust you to be dog savvy enough to know anything about dog behavior. Ill assume you are a fur mom.
> 2. Things can escalate quickly. Especially at a dog park.
> 3. I'd be mortified if my dog hurt some unknown puppy, or if I was making some other owner uncomfortable because I claimed to be dog savvy, because I read it somewhere.


This. Any concept outside of ^this is why I do not go to dog parks. 

Actually I don't go to dog parks because I see it as a modern socially constructed example of anthropomorphism where people think dogs need to interact with other unknown dogs so they know how to socialize and get along with others ...you know for when they grow up and go to dog college and then live on their own among strangers when they pick their dog career. 

Dogs are pack animals, the best thing for them is to be brought up in their pack. An older known dog can be an excellent teacher for a boisterous young pup. But not a strange dog. Puppies that wind up alone and encountering an unknown grown dog not from their pack would be in big trouble in their mind, so I would NEVER bring a pup into a situation where it can experience that kind of insecurity and stress/ For those who insist on applying children's social needs to dogs....would you watch a 10 year old kid push around your 5 year old on the playground because it is natural for an older kid to keep him in his place?

Long ago when dog parks were a new and fun thing and before I knew about the downside of it, I use to bring my super playful and dog friendly Jack Russell to the local dog park. Had my dog park friends, she had her dog friends. THREE YEARS not a single issue. One day (it only takes one day) a new idiot person with a big Malamute (it only takes one day and one idiot person who doesn't know anything about or have control of their dog) came in and the malamute ran over and savaged my dog to the point where I had to kick the other dog in the loins hard enough for it to be circling in pain after the fact. It had my JRT in a death shake.

One day, one incident, and my dog was a mental wreck with other dogs for the rest of her days.

Thanks but no thanks. Just sharing my story to demonstrate how years of "fine" can change on a dime because of one unknown person and dog at your regular hangout, one day.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I've been around folks who thought that my dogs were so well behaved and they invited me to their dog-park group. It was a nice thing to get invited but I declined. #1 unneutered dogs are not allowed in some of the nearby parks without a muzzle (I'm still scratching my head over that one) and #2 I don't want the hassle of undoing stupid stuff and stuff happens. I simply say, "my dog plays too rough" and that is pretty well accepted. Before I had a fenced in yard I went early when the park was empty. That included doing a walk around to make sure something nasty wasn't in the park (yes, that happens). Or I'd go to a large field with a long leash. Just be careful of the end of the long leash. Those things can wrap around a leg or slap your ankle pretty hard depending on what is on the non-dog end of it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Some breeds are definitely more able to be cool with lots of new strange dogs and it's usually the ones whose breed job kind of requires that of them. Even those dogs aren't fool proof though.

In general I think it is totally unnatural for non family member babies, adolescents, adults and seniors, all of different breeds, energynlevels, breed traits, etc, to be expected to "just work it out". 

WE created a totally unnatural living environment so i believe it is up to us to make it work, and throwing them all in a small fenced area together couldn't be a better setup for failure.

Find me any animal anywhere that will be tolerant and kind of another animal's young that it did not grow up with? I can't think of anywhere in any animal species where adolescent and adult animals would be meeting with young of that species that are not part of their family group unless like groups of elephants at a watering hole but you better believe those mama elephants are not gonna let the babies "work it out" with an adolescent from another strange family group. 

Is there an example I am not thinking of? I think the idea that this should ever work out just fine is basically preposterous.

By the way that older dog that I did let give my adolescent the what for was a dog he also had known his whole life although he is not my dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

With my ill advise many years ago to My mom and dad was go to the dog park with there new lab pup. I never really knew what a dog park was but heard people enjoyed taking there dogs there. I was always a hiking person with my dogs never interest in dog parks but I thought my parents would enjoy meeting other dog people and they needed something different to do. My mistake. So many people at the dog park always would let their dogs bully my parents pup who always so submissive to the dogs but stills kept getting bullied/schooled by other dogs the owners felt was okay. they stopped going. They had nothing but arguments and bad experiences there. My moms dog herself became a bully with other dogs after that and steamed rolled over max when he was such a little pup -practicing that same behavior she was taught. when max was screaming after the roll I saw the flicker in her eye and was about to attack him but my scream stopped her in her tracks- my karma. I always felt bad I sent them over to the dog park which near us is really small fenced in square area. There is a such a big dog social theme going on I don’t really get.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Funny you mention the training older dogs do with puppies. Right after this happened, one friend walked up and offered to "beat the guy up for me", and another couple of people commented on how much they appreciated my dog putting some schooling on their puppies.
> 
> It's a mad mad world folks, everyone has a different level of experience...it's all good. I also trust my dog's judgement...to a point. And I'm also sensitive to the feelings of others. It's all good. I'll watch my dog more closely for now, but I am confident she won't ever hurt a puppy...it's just not in her temperment. An adult dog....not so much...given the "right" provocation in her mind...bad things could happen. But not with a puppy...


I don't look at it as dogs correcting other dogs either. I look at it as a prelude to a fight. You're hoping the younger dog accepts and backs off from it. But just think about what you posted here. The "right" provocation in her mind. This caught you off guard, why are you so confident it wouldn't escalate with any dog, even if they are young? I don't want to see you get beat up in a dog park over something like this.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

With Beau it’s nearly always a prelude to a fight now, or at least bad behavior, and especially with younger dogs.

Beau changed with maturity re: other dogs. He was always sweet to other dogs as a pup and young adult, but now he can’t be trusted, maybe because a couple dogpark dogs tried to bully him back then?Anyway, you know that stereotype of the schoolyard bully offering to “teach you a lesson”? That’s what it looks like sometimes when Beau switches gears on a dog. He likes to meet other dogs, but that doesn’t mean he’s always nice to them. He starts off sweet and friendly, and with some dogs stays that way. With others, he’ll then suddenly turn into a social-climbing butt-headed bully. He can be especially rough with adolescent dogs or more submissive dogs, and I can’t always tell when he’s going to be a jerk, so I just don’t let him get close enough to try anymore.

For me, it wouldn’t be worth the risk of A.C. getting involved, never mind the potential trauma for some young dog. Beau needs space to fetch, so I do sometimes use dogparks. But we only go in one when it’s empty, and we leave if anyone else comes in.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Before I knew any better I took puppy Inga to a dog park where she was 'disciplined' by a homeless guys pit bull. She could have been killed. Now she is dog reactive for life. Not worth it! Now I use the outside the fence area for proofing commands she already knows. Its a great proofing zone as she walks past and downs right next to the fence fighters.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Don't forget, intact females have good reason to be aggressive particularly after a heat cycle. If she were bred (and her body pretty much tells her she has been- contact with male or not) she must eliminate all threats to herself and her future young. Aggression toward adolescent dogs, and other females is par for the course. 

When you chose to keep a dog intact, which is a perfectly acceptable choice, you also for the most part are choosing against dog parks, random dog-dog social interactions. And you are choosing, at the same time to have far greater control and responsibility, particularly with an intact female who comes into heat twice a year and will do her best to get bred. 

Intact female shepherds, in my experience, have the highest rate of dog-dog aggression, particularly during and right after a heat cycle. If you don't like this, and don't plan to breed, spay her during the hormonally "quiet" time of her cycle. 

Otherwise, plan to use quiet, public lands (Nat'l forest, BLM, state forest) to exercise your dog because this behavior is more than likely going to escalate with subsequent heat cycles.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Oh, Tim, please think carefully about this. Your dog is already in the system now and you don't want a second mark against her. Keep in mind that it doesn't matter what a smaller dog might do to Nyx, if there is an altercation and the smaller dog get hurt, your Nyx will be the one blamed.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My eldest bitch was fine intact for 3 years. At about 4 she began having false pregnancies. During the last two she questioned the justification for any other dog, including her neutered home buddy, being on the earth. And I began to appreciate why the term for female dogs has a bad connotation. The only cure was breed or spay. She's spayed. (We never did dog parks. We had a training field I could drive to, we had a school yard within a block that we could use. Now I live on 10 acres.)



Tim,
I join the "pack" that suggests your bitch's behavior might have something to do with her cycle as well as the pups getting older. Dogs will be dogs and dog park dogs will be dogs. I think your routine needs to change - either find an alternative to the dog park or go when few to no others are using it.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

car2ner said:


> I've been around folks who thought that my dogs were so well behaved and they invited me to their dog-park group. It was a nice thing to get invited but I declined. #1 unneutered dogs are not allowed in some of the nearby parks without a muzzle (I'm still scratching my head over that one) and #2 I don't want the hassle of undoing stupid stuff and stuff happens. I simply say, "my dog plays too rough" and that is pretty well accepted. Before I had a fenced in yard I went early when the park was empty. That included doing a walk around to make sure something nasty wasn't in the park (yes, that happens). Or I'd go to a large field with a long leash. Just be careful of the end of the long leash. Those things can wrap around a leg or slap your ankle pretty hard depending on what is on the non-dog end of it.


Yeah, that's exactly what I do now....the long leash, and it gets wrapped around my ankles a lot. I've gotten some nasty rope burns and they hurt. I've been mulling over the idea of fencing my yard not only for the dog but also to keep the deer from pooping all over my yard and my dog eating all the deer poop.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Before I knew any better I took puppy Inga to a dog park where she was 'disciplined' by a homeless guys pit bull. She could have been killed. Now she is dog reactive for life. Not worth it! Now I use the outside the fence area for proofing commands she already knows. Its a great proofing zone as she walks past and downs right next to the fence fighters.


That's exactly what happened to my previous dog. He was fine for a long time in dog parks. Then one day he was picked on by a big white dog. From then on, he hated all big white dogs. (I took him back to the parks a few times after that but he was never the same. So I stopped taking him there.)


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nyx and I had a good time at the dog park this evening. What I found particularly interesting was watching the puppy owner who complained to me the other day, fending off other dogs doing the same thing all evening. I kept Nyx away from his puppy tonight though, except for when we did a circuit of the agility equipment. And she totally ignored his puppy, though she was just a few feet from it when she was jumping through the hoop... 

In the 16 months that we've been going to the dog park Nyx has been in a few brief spats over toys/balls, but only one of those rose to a level I'd call an actual fight. It went on for probably a minute or so before I could find an appropriate opening to get them separated. 3 minutes after the fight ended Nyx went up to the dog, another intact female BTW, and licked her face... They never fought again, and held no grudges.

It really amazes me when I hear stories of a single dog fight, or a single bullying incident, impairing a dog for life. I truly have never seen such a thing ever! I've never owned a dog that didn't get into a dog fight now and then, it happens. But none of the dogs I've had were dog-aggressive or fearful because of it.

As I've said before, I have never taken any of my other dogs to a dog park. If I had other options I wouldn't be going there now, or at least not so frequently. But every dog I've ever owned spent lots of time around other dogs, and could go anywhere with me and know how to behave. They don't have to like all other dogs, but they do have to behave around them...and you don't teach a dog that by keeping them away from other dogs!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

tc68 said:


> Yeah, that's exactly what I do now....the long leash, and it gets wrapped around my ankles a lot. I've gotten some nasty rope burns and they hurt. I've been mulling over the idea of fencing my yard not only for the dog but also to keep the deer from pooping all over my yard and my dog eating all the deer poop.



Fencing in the yard was so worth the cost. My dogs love the freedom! They do, however, often ask me to come join them outdoors. 

As far as one incident setting up a dog to be reactive for life, it can happen. Our American dogs are kept out of society and locked into small backyards for so much of their life, that many don't get the day to day practice of dealing with the outside world. If we were allowed to bring our dogs to more places, maybe people would be better at teaching their dogs to behave in public. We would learn from each other and seeing good examples. Strangers wouldn't be so excited to come pet our dogs because seeing a good dog on any given day wouldn't be so novel. (getting off the soapbox now)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

II would be careful or go to the park when only certain people are there if that is what you choose to do. 

I had dogs all my life and when there was a time when no social pressure was not put on dogs- the way it is now. I went to no dog classes no dog parks nada but yet any of my dogs had no issues with other dogs. Never did I feel I had to socialize my dogs with other dogs but yet all behaved well in public non had issues with dogs at all. There was none of this my dog has to meet your dog. I remember one time I put one of my dog in the back seat with a strange dog she never met nor has she met any dogs out of her family and there were no issues. 


A few weeks ago I went to a town for dinner with sister and kids and it looked like dog night. Everyone was out with there dogs it was cool to see. A lot of people would walk up to each other talk dog stuff -cute. I noticed people had a lot of small dogs. One family had a dog and the other was family was approaching them with their dog to meet and the one family said my dog does not like other dogs - sorry very nice and not in a rude tone. The dog was very well behaved. The owner of the other dog was so offended it was hard not to notice the anger all over her face and said they should not be out with their dog then as her own dog was jumping and barking acting like a fool. 

I have heard many stories of one incident can effect dogs for life. The timing can be just really bad where the incident really sticks in a pups mind especially if it’s not followed up with a good experience- can help ease the owner to. 
Dog classes helped teach me how to teach my dog how to behave and then their is life for much practice -there are dogs all the time out in public towns, neighborhoods, beaches , trails. The people now who feel all dogs should love all dogs invading there space never stopped me from taking my dog out and enjoy what we enjoy.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> It really amazes me when I hear stories of a single dog fight, or a single bullying incident, impairing a dog for life. I truly have never seen such a thing ever! I've never owned a dog that didn't get into a dog fight now and then, it happens. But none of the dogs I've had were dog-aggressive or fearful because of it.


Depending on the timing in life/severity and the severity, a single incident can absolutely cause an aversion in a dog. Which is why I think the people that "thanked" strangers and their dogs for putting their puppy in their place are fools and just simply know nothing about dogs in general. What a better way to break trust during an important learning period. Here...go into this crowd of strange dogs because I say it's ok and watch you get educated by strangers? Yeah ....no.

As far as "how else will they learn to be around other dogs"...easy. We go places where there are other dogs and other people a lot, and train our dogs to be neutral. I see no value in a dog thinking new dogs (or brand new people) are Hey Fun!! This could lead to them greeting the wrong dog on the wrong street on the wrong day.

When we go to IPO...dogs pass by each other and stay in their long downs. They are expected to stay focused on their handler throughout this type of distraction. Considering the exercises are suppose to test the breed integrity of any given GSD dog, I do not understand why anyone would acquire a loyal aloof known to be "one family" breed of dog and expect it to gel with the Doodles at the dog park. 

I'm not saying you need to live the IPO life or act like your dog is assigned to sniff out bombs in Kandahar, but the expectation to A) By a well bred GSD and then B) expect it to be everyone and every dog's buddy does not make sense to me. We spend so much time giving credit to genetics here...you can't subjectively then deny it matters.

If people have a GSD that likes the dog park, hey that is your choice, your dog. But remember a lot of new people read these forums when getting a puppy. So...I will state this for them reading this- it is NOT ok to allow strange dogs to school or educate YOUR puppy. That is your job, and maybe the job of other stable dogs that are in your household. They need to trust you, to focus on you, and you need to be the most fun thing in their life.

I can walk through a crowded pet store with my dog and he does not even look at other dogs. That is desirable to me and the majority of people who invested in a GSD. For play he has my BF's other 2 dogs that we spend a lot of time with. That to me is closer to what I expect from a GSD. Not tongue out running into a crowd of strange dogs he shouldn't even care about.

These dog park threads always go the same way. A few people who partake, combined with the other 98.9 % saying not a great idea because of your breed and XYZ. Hey like I said do what you are comfortable doing with your dog...there are plenty of things in life that I go against the grain on because I feel it is the right thing to do, I just accept the risk and fully expect the criticism.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Is adverse reaction to a single event tied to nerve strength? I'm sure there are a number of factors going on in any one event that can effect how things turn out, but some dogs seem to shrug off just about anything life can throw at them and some become reactive.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

From what I have been told and heard from expereinced people when discussing the topic? Yes and no. Periods of development and severity of the incident combined with nerve thresholds at that time maybe. The dog of mine that had a one incident life altering event was a solid Jack Russell that was good for 3 plus years. Did agility and flyball, was the type of dog that got along with everyone and everything. Use to pull me 11 miles on my rollerblades around a loop! She was a long legged variety, what would be refered to as working lines I suppose in the JRT world (not the stubby legged ones like Eddy from Frasier). Her incident was severe, she definitely did not have a nerve issue. Malamute had her in a death shake, she dropped her scent glands and everything. Was NEVER ok around other dogs from that moment on. Was still great with people and kids and family...just became defensive aggressive from that day on with any other dog. Talk about feeling like you let your dog down. That was like almost 2 decades ago and I still remember the pit in my stomach over putting my dog in that situation.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Is adverse reaction to a single event tied to nerve strength?


Probably. Sometimes adverse is anything that isn't something we'd like with them.In general though, I don't think its just one narrow effect. Like Comet mentioned, it can just be a raised interest in other dogs when you want more indifference. My first Shepherd had some problems that drew added attention form other dogs and after being charged a couple times, no actual contact, he was going to get them first. My second shepherd Chaos, was bothered by dogs barking aggressively from cars or yards, so he went through a period where he was kind of on the look out. Doc will shrug off all of it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Is adverse reaction to a single event tied to nerve strength?


Good question. 

It took seven attacks on my one female for her to start displaying dog reactivity. The first attack was at six months while the last at two years. My other female was attacked once at six months of age and remains naturally dog neutral. 

One male was attacked three times as an adult and remains naturally dog neutral. A puppy was attacked three times and now as an adult is dog reactive but I know that he comes from lines known for dog aggression.

By naturally neutral, I mean no preemptive measures were taken on my part to prevent any dog reactivity that might result.

ALL of these attacks occurred either in my neighborhood or in parks, NOT dog parks although six of the attacks were the result of dogs escaping dog parks to attack my dogs. I mention this so that others training outside of dog parks or passing by one are aware of this danger.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

CometDog said:


> From what I have been told and heard from expereinced people when discussing the topic? Yes and no. Periods of development and severity of the incident combined with nerve thresholds at that time maybe. The dog of mine that had a one incident life altering event was a solid Jack Russell that was good for 3 plus years. Did agility and flyball, was the type of dog that got along with everyone and everything. Use to pull me 11 miles on my rollerblades around a loop! She was a long legged variety, what would be refered to as working lines I suppose in the JRT world (not the stubby legged ones like Eddy from Frasier). Her incident was severe, she definitely did not have a nerve issue. Malamute had her in a death shake, she dropped her scent glands and everything. Was NEVER ok around other dogs from that moment on. Was still great with people and kids and family...just became defensive aggressive from that day on with any other dog. Talk about feeling like you let your dog down. That was like almost 2 decades ago and I still remember the pit in my stomach over putting my dog in that situation.


This is pretty extreme and sorry to hear this happened. The outcome you experienced would be expected more often than not given the circumstances. I'm referring more to the types of situations Tim has mentioned which sound to me a bit more like dust ups than anything else. 

I do agree with Steve that these "encounters" can be a prelude to full on fights, but are they themselves enough to cause lasting damage and if so does this speak to nerves?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I would not expect a dust up to cause any lasting damage. However, if I have a pup learning to trust and focus on me as a foundation for the future, if he does have a dust up I don't want it to be with an unknown dog or person. Too many variables and just wrong message I want my young dog getting about how our relationship and how we deal with the world together works.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Probably. Sometimes adverse is anything that isn't something we'd like with them.In general though, I don't think its just one narrow effect. Like Comet mentioned, it can just be a raised interest in other dogs when you want more indifference. *My first Shepherd had some problems that drew added attention form other dogs and after being* charged a couple times, no actual contact, he was going to get them first. My second shepherd Chaos, was bothered by dogs barking aggressively from cars or yards, so he went through a period where he was kind of on the look out. Doc will shrug off all of it.


I've witnessed this with one of mine. Dogs took pot shots at her a couple times and couldn't figure out why. Maybe there was something there I didn't pickup on. We got passed this, but she was guarded around other dogs for some time.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

When I first got Valor we were walking through a farmers market when he was like 6.5 months old. He sniffed a super bright red flower and something pricked his nose or something because he sprung and yelped (small stinging insect maybe). He wanted nothing to do with it after that, but I just walked through the rest of the nursery like nothing is nothing. He recovered well, bt to this day he is not quick to sniff very bright flowers. He doesn't spook on them, but he would just rather not smell them lol He walks by and ignores them but is still giving a sideways glance. I wouldn't call that a nerve "issue" since he recovered and doesnt spook on flowers and will walk right through a nursery...I would just say I see evidence of him remembering an unpleasant experience. If he continued to be hurt by flowers repeatedly, over time I would definitely expect an absolute aversion to them.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

If puppies didn't learn from early experiences, they wouldn't survive. Think about wolf pups- mom teaches them young about avoiding porcupines, predators, human habitation, and how to hunt, where to sleep safely, etc. And pups remember for life. Not really a fault, but a consequence of evolution. Pups that didn't learn, died, were less likely to breed successfully, or were adopted by people... hence our breeds that are less sensitive. GSDs tend more toward a bit more sensitive, generally, due to selective breeding. A lab, probably less so. 

Schooling by an older dog, may make a dog leery of strange dogs for life. Not necessarily aggressive or reactive unless that is part of their temperament, but certainly could have a strong impact on the pup's future behavior toward other dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel said:


> I've witnessed this with one of mine. Dogs took pot shots at her a couple times and couldn't figure out why. Maybe there was something there I didn't pickup on. We got passed this, but she was guarded around other dogs for some time.


Shadow has the same issue. This poor girl has been attacked more then all my other dogs put together, and it started when she was just a bitty thing. Dogs that I KNOW are totally friendly or neutral turn into Cujo dogs at the sight of her. Buddy lived with her all her life and even he turned on her once Sabi was gone. Had a wonderful old boy here a few Christmases ago loves everyone and everything, scared the crap out of all of us. Took one look at Shadow and nearly bit his owner trying to get to her. Guy has owned this dog for 11 years, never even seen him growl before.


Some dogs just seem to be targets. And when they turn up in dog parks there is simply no stopping an issue, especially if you factor in clueless and ineffective owners.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

@CometDog, I too am sorry to hear about the attack on your JRT. And yes, in an extreme case like that, it certainly could effect the dog for life (and the owner as well!).

But I also think that we may have very different mental images of what I'm talking about when I say "schooling". It's not bullying, and it's not in any way shape or form an "attack", or as NB said, "disciplining"...her dog was also attacked. 

The "schooling" I'm talking about occurs whenever a young puppy interacts with an older dog...and there does seem to be a particular age window for it. Some dogs are more patient with puppies than others, but their natural interaction with puppies is schooling. My dog is very patient with puppies, and 90+% of the people I encounter seem to understand dog behavior well enough to understand that their precious fur baby is fine even though a dog is growling at their puppy. It isn't a prelude to anything, it's an older dog teaching the puppy some limits, and it IS a good and natural thing.

The guy that I mentioned here is not one of those. He's the guy who brings a dog to a dog park and "expects" everyone else's dog to completely leave it alone, or kiss it in the face. It's not my dog that is causing the problem for him, it's all other dogs...which is why he finds himself fending them off constantly!
@Nigel, I agree that the dust ups or spats that I mentioned ARE very much what could be considered a prelude to a fight...the "schooling" not so much. Sometimes these little spats are enough though, and both dogs seem to just reach a mutual understanding.

Nyx has never provoked or initiated a fight with any dog ever. She reads dogs very well. Consequently she's much less likely to run up and greet the "wrong" dog, than a dog who has been sequestered away from other dogs and taught to be neutral IMHO!

That being said, she also knows when it's time to work and when it's time to play. We go to stores and ball games and car shows and on-leash parks, etc., and she's good at ignoring other dogs (now, wasn't always this way, that's for sure!). 

At any rate, I have met people who participate in all types of dog sports at the dog park, so the assertion that 98.9% of the folks here on this forum, or in the world at large, say that dogs parks are to be avoided always just doesn't hold water! What there is here is a very vocal minority who believe that, and who's living situation accommodates that viewpoint...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A good question but I think it would have to be decided by individual cases. I think if the scale tips to more bad experiences as the total experience your chances of a positive outlook in the dog may not possibly be in the dogs favor . If you get to balance that out is good or too the scales the other way I wish I had attempted this. most of max’s bad experiences were in his younger pup days. He was about 8 months when he decided he did not like dogs. I remember the gsd behind us chased him all around the front yard when he was a pup poor max crying like a banshee. When max turned one I was walking down our private road with kids and my young nephew the dog backed us to bushes i let go of the leash and max chased the dog home the other dog was now crying /max got a ego boost but knew then he just wanted to drive the dog away and was not out to kill anyone. 

I suppose they picktheir poison as to what bothers them. I don’t know. He was pierced in the tonsil with stick causes a big huge hole that had splinters in it. He will still pick up sticks will. Chase down a stick in a heartbeat loves to pull a branch down on one tree in even though I will redirect him to his ball.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

tc68 said:


> Unfortunately for you Tim, you and your dog have been reported to the authorities. *So he's in the system now. If something happens again and you're reported, your dog may have problems with the county or state in the future.* (You've been warned.)


That would be my takeaway.

I'd tread very lightly and make sure not to show up on anyone's radar for a long time. Maybe that means staying away from the dog park, maybe it means going at dawn or in the rain, maybe it means something else. I'd do whatever it takes to avoid a second strike. Dogs recover, but people are vindictive and unpredictable and emotional.

In an otherwise neutral scenario, if one dog has a "record" and the other doesn't, the frown and the fine and the judgement tends to land on the one with negative history on file.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I agree. I like walking my dogs on the path around our local dog park, but we never go inside. It's fun to watch the dogs run and play, and to see different breeds, and to chat with people. I am sure that 90 percent of the time, nothing unpleasant happens, but sooner or later there is bound to be conflict, and I hate drama. Who needs more drama in their life. Not me!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow has the same issue. This poor girl has been attacked more then all my other dogs put together, and it started when she was just a bitty thing. Dogs that I KNOW are totally friendly or neutral turn into Cujo dogs at the sight of her. Buddy lived with her all her life and even he turned on her once Sabi was gone. Had a wonderful old boy here a few Christmases ago loves everyone and everything, scared the crap out of all of us. Took one look at Shadow and nearly bit his owner trying to get to her. Guy has owned this dog for 11 years, never even seen him growl before.
> 
> 
> Some dogs just seem to be targets. And when they turn up in dog parks there is simply no stopping an issue, especially if you factor in clueless and ineffective owners.


Poor Shadow! She's lucky to have you! It's definitely true that not all dogs can or will learn to be "okay" around other dogs. I had a friend who had a female GSD that was afraid of everything...both inside and outside of their home and yard. It's one of the few dogs I've ever known that needed medication to be functional, poor thing. Not a bad dog, but really poor nerves! That dog would have been a train wreck at a dog park!

And just to clarify, there is no "record" nor is my dog "in the system"...there was no injury. It was simply a new puppy owner that was a bit over anxious. The AC officer called because the puppy owner was so insistent...not because she believed there was really a "problem"...she made that very clear in the call!

There is a rule on the books that for a dog to be off-leash at the dog park they have to be under strict verbal control. If I were to guess, I'd say less than 5% fall into that category. So by law, they shouldn't be there! 

On the other hand, I would gladly demonstrate Nyx's obedience at the park or anywhere else...I do it all the time! And I could easily get a dozen puppy owners to attest to her patience with their puppies...she's really good with them! 

I should have chosen my words a bit more carefully when I created this thread, as I see how people could get the wrong impression when I said that she was more "aggressive" toward puppies. I guess I was just a bit worked up still. What I should have said is more focussed, it's a much more accurate description, and I do think it's a maternal thing for her.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Tim, it was just a matter of time that you would run into trouble with your take on dog parks. No surprise for me here. Your own quote "Nyx is now 22 months, and has gone through her second heat recently. She seems to have emerged from that a little more aggressive toward 5-7 month old puppies for some reason, and it has caused some issues recently." What do you mean by "a little"? All the "schooling" and "letting them work things out" as you named it, may have made her dog aggressive. 
I believe it was in one of your threads that I mentioned "it all goes well until it doesn't". How do we know you read your dog well as you say you do? Dogs can give off signals not noticeable to us. I had a small female dog who could rule (=bully) with her eyes. I thought she was just looking until a behaviorist pointed out what she was actually doing. Even if your dog is 'innocent' people who report you, tend to be believed by AC. 
I wonder how many incidents you need to stay out of dog parks. You now have a target on your back.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

No way of proving it, of course, and I do hope that I am wrong, but I would be willing to bet that a report was made and therefore Nyx is in the system. The report may say nothing more than a person made a complaint about Nyx's behavior at a dog park, no injuries were noted and after talking with both parties, the issue was resolved. Still, that means she is in the system and I, myself, would not risk any more reports.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Tim, it was just a matter of time that you would run into trouble with your take on dog parks. No surprise for me here. Your own quote "Nyx is now 22 months, and has gone through her second heat recently. She seems to have emerged from that a little more aggressive toward 5-7 month old puppies for some reason, and it has caused some issues recently." What do you mean by "a little"? All the "schooling" and "letting them work things out" as you named it, may have made her dog aggressive.
> I believe it was in one of your threads that I mentioned "it all goes well until it doesn't". How do we know you read your dog well as you say you do? Dogs can give off signals not noticeable to us. I had a small female dog who could rule (=bully) with her eyes. I thought she was just looking until a behaviorist pointed out what she was actually doing. Even if your dog is 'innocent' people who report you, tend to be believed by AC.
> I wonder how many incidents you need to stay out of dog parks. You now have a target on your back.


It was actually our previous dog park debates, Wolfy, that prompted me to create this thread! You asked that I share any bad experiences as well as the good, so I did.

As far as Nyx being dog aggressive though, it's just not the case, sorry! As I mentioned, yesterday I allowed absolutely no contact between Nyx and that puppy. At one point several dogs were playing in the vicinity of that puppy and Nyx kept wanting to participate, so I put her in a down stay near me. Right after that a new puppy showed up, one that she'd never seen before, some terrier mix that weighed all of about 10 pounds. In its excitement it ran over to Nyx and proceeded to lick and jump all over her...at one point she growled a bit, but she didn't break the down stay and she didn't bite or snap at the cute little rascal either LOL! Good doggie!


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

"It has been interesting to watch my dog's behavioral changes over time. It's totally clear that just because a dog has been going to the dog park for many months, it doesn't mean that today will be the same as it's always been...maturity changes things.

I sincerely hope we can continue to go so my dog can run around off-leash, but time, and her behavior will dictate that."

It sounds like you have a good handle on things Tim. Certainly, merits further observation. I had to give advice to a young man at the dog park the other day not to bring his 1.5 y/o old female husky to the park when she was in heat. I do as much observing of people at the park as I do of their dogs. I will intervene earlier or keep my dog away from theirs if I could see that the owner is a bit too sensitive or not dog savvy enough. I've never seen a confrontation between owners at the parks we go to because we only go to the bigger parks, 15 acres or more, and most owners will just walk away whenever there are incidents or near incidents. I wish all dog parks would have a smaller area where small dogs and puppies can be kept away from bigger dogs but not all do. And even in the ones that have it, I still see owners bring their too young puppy to be at risk, including just being stepped on or bowled over by bigger dogs running around. And most pet dog owners are not savvy enough to understand the concept of pressure on a dog.

One thing about GSDs as a breed as they mature is that they tend to have a lower tolerance level for unruliness by other dogs and they like order. They are basically disciplinarians. This characteristic can be a problem for other dogs in a dog park.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Nyx and proceeded to lick and jump all over her...at one point she growled a bit, but she didn't break the down stay and she didn't bite or snap at the cute little rascal either LOL! Good doggie!


Just tap dancin on a mine field Tim.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> It was actually our previous dog park debates, Wolfy, that prompted me to create this thread! You asked that I share any bad experiences as well as the good, so I did.
> 
> As far as Nyx being dog aggressive though, it's just not the case, sorry! As I mentioned, yesterday I allowed absolutely no contact between Nyx and that puppy. At one point several dogs were playing in the vicinity of that puppy and Nyx kept wanting to participate, so I put her in a down stay near me. Right after that a new puppy showed up, one that she'd never seen before, some terrier mix that weighed all of about 10 pounds. In its excitement it ran over to Nyx and proceeded to lick and jump all over her...at one point she growled a bit, but she didn't break the down stay and she didn't bite or snap at the cute little rascal either LOL! Good doggie!


That little terrier knew exactly what he was doing because he is a dog. Puppies are not innocent play-wannabees but are wired to check out their hierarchy statuses with dogs. Nothing cute about that. Sounds like Nyx was in her right to growl at the terrier and showed good self control. The problem is that when your dog is under control and. being obedient in a dog park, other dogs (here: the terrier) may and will take advantage of her compromised options to communicate effectively. The growl is something many people consider to be aggressive and report you as a result. Another take: if she was suppressed to tell that terrier "OFF!", she might get overboard with the that dog next time she is able to. I had that same thing happen with my first dog and one dog that was always annoying him on leash. Then one day, when he was off leash, he got to him as I was not aware and he took him on as in a 'once and for all'. That was about 30 years ago and I have gotten a lot smarter. since then.
Since you probably will continue the dog park, it might be better to let her be free and not practice obedience there so she can communicate as she needs to while hope for the best. By the way, if you are in a dog park, how can you possibly not allow your dog contact with another dog? Most dogs are not under voice control so I don't know how you would do that.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

There are so many reasons why I would never take my dogs to a dog park.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> ...
> By the way, if you are in a dog park, how can you possibly not allow your dog contact with another dog? Most dogs are not under voice control so I don't know how you would do that.


Obedience. My dog "is" actually under voice control at all times! I read her expression, dogs are pretty good at telegraphing their thoughts. We played fetch, and she was free to run around anywhere that puppy wasn't. If the puppy came anywhere near where we were I simply watched my dog...She doesn't "have it in" for this or any other puppy, so it isn't hard!

And her strong obedience is exactly why I was able to amicably resolve things with this puppy owner. He knows I don't let my dog run amuck or bully other dogs!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm not for or against dog parks, I don't use them. Take any "signs" that it's time to leave the park seriously and do so. Things can escalate quickly and the damage can extend beyond the dogs themselves to include those attempting to intervene. Best to keep clear of the blame game that'll likely ensue.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

You simply can not control everything going on at a dog park. 

You can not control the other dogs and there may come a time when your "strong obedience" is overridden by a stronger drive that your dog has at the time. 

If it were me, (and it never would be me) and I was warned once by AC and again by another dog owner I would find another way and place to interact with my dog. IMHO, that is far easer and far safer for both my dog and me.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Obedience. My dog "is" actually under voice control at all times! I


I wasn't referring to your dog. And yes, like what Slamdunc said, obedience only goes so far.
Over and out.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> ...
> If it were me, (and it never would be me) and I was warned once by AC and again by another dog owner I would find another way and place to interact with my dog. ...


With all this talk, and you being in LE Jim, it made me worried that maybe there was a "report" in the system even though there was no injury!

So I spoke with AC...actually accosted the poor lady while she was waiting for an espresso >

No report, no warning, and no blackmark for my dog! She did, jokingly, suggest that I might not be so lucky LOL!

Great lady, BTW, has two Mals of her own. She knows my dog too, and in fact commented on how well trained she is. It turns out she's seen us working on a long line in an on-leash, local park.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> You simply can not control everything going on at a dog park.


And that's exactly what me and my control freak personality have an issue with. I know and trust my dog. I don't think most of the dog park people around here can say the same.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I sat in my car a few weeks ago, looking longingly into the new dog park in town. There were just two people there, with their Dobes, having a very nice time. While I have a fenced yard, I have a very tiny yard. I would dearly love to have someplace big to take my dogs to run. We don't have all this open land or beaches that so many of you have access to. I wish I could go to a dog park with my dogs and let them run, _but never in a million years is that going to happen.
_ 

I don't want my dogs interacting with other dogs. I want them to _ignore_ other dogs, not wrestle, chase or fend off other dogs. I show dogs. I need them to ignore other dogs, and they do. They don't see other dogs as potential friends. Honestly I think taking a GSD to a dog park is just an accident waiting to happen.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> @CometDog, I too am sorry to hear about the attack on your JRT. And yes, in an extreme case like that, it certainly could effect the dog for life (and the owner as well!).
> 
> But I also think that we may have very different mental images of what I'm talking about when I say "schooling". It's not bullying, and it's not in any way shape or form an "attack", or as NB said, "disciplining"...her dog was also attacked.
> 
> ...


I'm confused. You said your dog 'schooled' a puppy such that animal control was called on your dog, but she is very patient with puppies? 

I had a dog who was tolerant of puppies. It was the only thing the foster told me about him that was true when I adopted him. He laid on his back without moving and let a 9 week old puppy jump all over him. He would sit up and let this 9 wk old "knock" him over again. He was a gem in so many ways. 

You said your dog was in a fight over a toy I think. I don't honestly think that dogs who will fight over toys belong in dog parks period.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> It was actually our previous dog park debates, Wolfy, that prompted me to create this thread! You asked that I share any bad experiences as well as the good, so I did.
> 
> As far as Nyx being dog aggressive though, it's just not the case, sorry! As I mentioned, yesterday I allowed absolutely no contact between Nyx and that puppy. At one point several dogs were playing in the vicinity of that puppy and Nyx kept wanting to participate, so I put her in a down stay near me. Right after that a new puppy showed up, one that she'd never seen before, some terrier mix that weighed all of about 10 pounds. In its excitement it ran over to Nyx and proceeded to lick and jump all over her...at one point she growled a bit, but she didn't break the down stay and she didn't bite or snap at the cute little rascal either LOL! Good doggie!


Holy moly, Tim, this scares me. 

A 10 pound dog jumping all over a GSD in a downstay that is growling? Even if you were close enough to grab her it might not have mattered if she had grabbed first.

I would never allow a 10 pound dog within a ten foot radius of a dog of mine

Why didn't you stop this little dog from making contact with yours since she was in a down?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> With all this talk, and you being in LE Jim, it made me worried that maybe there was a "report" in the system even though there was no injury!
> 
> So I spoke with AC...actually accosted the poor lady while she was waiting for an espresso >
> 
> ...


Call me cynical, but I still don't believe it. However, this is my last comment as I don't want to be argumentative.

I think the only way that you are truly going to know whether or not Nyx is in the system is if there is a second incident. And so I hope with all my heart that you never find out.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Small aside re Animal Control...

Last week I actually had to file a complaint about neighbor's dog. Rumo has been attacked five times in past year. Typically the dog is barking furiously, it charges out of its yard (breaks tether), runs across the street and leaps onto Rumo's back or tries to bite Rumo through his thick neck ruff. Recently it developed a nasty habit of biting its owner on the hand, owner yells and drops leash, and the dog charges us. 

Anyway AC called me before visiting their house today. She said neighbor's dog is not licensed, no record of vaccination for rabies, is not microchipped, etc. and there is no record of this dog in their system...have a feeling my poor neighbor is going to get a hard time from AC! (I've got nothing against him personally...he just needs to figure out how to control his psycho dog and keep it on leash / in his yard...)

So AC does track and record things...
luckily it sounds like they like Nyx though! 

I too would be careful about incurring another AC report though.
Would change my dog park times to "offpeak" times, go less often, or just play with a few known grownup dogs that Nyx likes - if you feel like she loves dog company. But she could also be happy just rambling with you. I know my dog would have a hard time choosing between a long walk or other dogs..usually he will briefly greet other dogs and then be like,"Ok.Let's get moving!!"


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> I sat in my car a few weeks ago, looking longingly into the new dog park in town. There were just two people there, with their Dobes, having a very nice time. While I have a fenced yard, I have a very tiny yard. I would dearly love to have someplace big to take my dogs to run. We don't have all this open land or beaches that so many of you have access to. I wish I could go to a dog park with my dogs and let them run, _but never in a million years is that going to happen.
> _
> 
> I don't want my dogs interacting with other dogs. I want them to _ignore_ other dogs, not wrestle, chase or fend off other dogs. I show dogs. I need them to ignore other dogs, and they do. They don't see other dogs as potential friends. Honestly I think taking a GSD to a dog park is just an accident waiting to happen.



Go at 6:00 in the am..and leave when others arrive. That's how I used our dog park years ago until I found other places to go.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

ksotto333 said:


> Go at 6:00 in the am..and leave when others arrive. That's how I used our dog park years ago until I found other places to go.




I’d love too, but it won’t work with my work schedule! I’ve gone by there at different odd times, but I’ve yet to see it empty. Ugh.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> I’d love too, but it won’t work with my work schedule! I’ve gone by there at different odd times, but I’ve yet to see it empty. Ugh.



Dang, well hope you find it empty soon.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

"And just to clarify, there is no "record" nor is my dog "in the system"...there was no injury. It was simply a new puppy owner that was a bit over anxious. The AC officer called because the puppy owner was so insistent...not because she believed there was really a "problem"...she made that very clear in the call"

I still wouldn't take that chance with my dog if I were you, Tim. You've just been given a "free pass." Maybe the next Animal Control officer won't be as understanding or nice about it. Or maybe the next offended dog owner will be more convincing. Do you really want to take that chance that you'll bump into the wrong person (there are plenty of these wrong people) and get the wrong Animal Control officer and then have your dog deemed dangerous or worse - put down? I love my dog too much to chance that. But at the end of the day, it's your dog and you know it best. And you know the area around you. So I hope nothing happens. At the least, I hope you take people's advice and be a little more cautious about the dog park because none of us want to see anything happen to a GSD and a fellow GSD owner.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Around here where we live AC won't do anything about a dog-on-dog incident at a dog park because it is a "use at your own risk" basis. They will treat it differently from a report about a loose dog behaving aggressively toward people or other animals in a neighborhood or park for people. Having said that, dog park users should be self-policing and care for the safety of all the dogs in the park not just their own. It is the same as being around a children's playground, one should care about the well-being of every child there not just theirs.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'm confused. You said your dog 'schooled' a puppy such that animal control was called on your dog, but she is very patient with puppies?
> 
> I had a dog who was tolerant of puppies. It was the only thing the foster told me about him that was true when I adopted him. He laid on his back without moving and let a 9 week old puppy jump all over him. He would sit up and let this 9 wk old "knock" him over again. He was a gem in so many ways.
> 
> You said your dog was in a fight over a toy I think. I don't honestly think that dogs who will fight over toys belong in dog parks period.


 @Thecowboysgirl my previous posts clarified some of this stuff. But seriously, my dog IS extremely tolerant of puppies! 

Seriously, if you banned every dog that would protect their toy from another dog in a dog park, you'd always have free access, because no other dogs would ever be allowed to come! 

Maybe that's the key LOL! I'd be happy if people would just at least try to understand dog behavior before coming LOL!

I have watched my dog play with a 3 month old puppy for 10 minutes, a cute little pug puppy, very very gently...never a growl or anything! But when that same puppy grows another couple months, my dog will growl at it, and even show her teeth at it as training. If you, or the owner of that puppy don't like that, keep your puppy out of the dog park! Or any other venue where an older dog might help the puppy learn some manners! 

The problem isn't the puppies or dogs, it's the lack of understanding of dog behavior of the owners...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tc68 said:


> "And just to clarify, there is no "record" nor is my dog "in the system"...there was no injury. It was simply a new puppy owner that was a bit over anxious. The AC officer called because the puppy owner was so insistent...not because she believed there was really a "problem"...she made that very clear in the call"
> 
> I still wouldn't take that chance with my dog if I were you, Tim. You've just been given a "free pass." Maybe the next Animal Control officer won't be as understanding or nice about it. Or maybe the next offended dog owner will be more convincing. Do you really want to take that chance that you'll bump into the wrong person (there are plenty of these wrong people) and get the wrong Animal Control officer and then have your dog deemed dangerous or worse - put down? I love my dog too much to chance that. But at the end of the day, it's your dog and you know it best. And you know the area around you. So I hope nothing happens. At the least, I hope you take people's advice and be a little more cautious about the dog park because none of us want to see anything happen to a GSD and a fellow GSD owner.


I know my dog, and she is always under control at this age. Keeping your dog away from potential triggers does absolutely NOTHING to help them get over them!

And just to clarify, yet again, not a "free pass", the lady that called A.C. had nothing at all to report. She's a new dog owner who became unreasonably anxious...period!

It's all good. My dog is not a threat to anyone's puppy...unleas teaching the puppy manners is threatening!

But consider for a minute the alternative...because that has some more serious implications!

Puppy grows up without learning proper limits on his behavior. I guarantee you that at 10 or so months, dogs won't just school him, they'll hurt him! 

Which would you prefer?

I am not a first timer...been around these dogs my whole life...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I have watched my dog play with a 3 month old puppy for 10 minutes, a cute little pug puppy, very very gently...never a growl or anything! But when that same puppy grows another couple months, my dog will growl at it, and even show her teeth at it as training. *If you, or the owner of that puppy don't like that, keep your puppy out of the dog park! Or any other venue where an older dog might help the puppy learn some manners! *
> 
> The problem isn't the puppies or dogs, it's the lack of understanding of dog behavior of the owners...


This is your dog park? If it is not then I don't see where you get to tell people whose dog or puppy is not threatening or harming another to to keep out of the dog park. You simply don't have that right. It is not your dog's job to teach somebody else's puppy manners. That is simply not your decision to make. 

As somebody that has frequented so many dog parks with so many different dogs for so many years, this is very much a sore spot with me. Most people on here come on this forum and bash dog parks based on what somebody else told them or something they read. Few speak from personal experience. This thread is creating a bad image of dog parks when clearly it is not the notion of dog parks that is the problem here but one person's sense of entitlement to foist their method of dog raising and training on the others. I hope people following this thread don't think this is typical of what goes on in other dog parks. It would be sad for them to miss out on what can and should be a fun and enjoyable experience with their dogs because they think this is what they can expect.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

I love the space of dog parks. Love getting to see my pups unfurl and run their lil hearts out with a full body stretch that just eats up the ground. That said, I like others, only go when it’s empty. 

My GSD Cafall was attacked while chasing my other dog when he was 10 months old. He did nothing wrong. Another dog misread a situation and my dog ended up in emergency surgery. 

I think most of these warnings about dog parks come from a place of concern. Because even if your dog is perfect, and you have the ability to read every nuance of the scene perfectly, others don’t. That includes other dogs. It’s the unpredictability of other animals that makes parks so dangerous. 

Cafall doesn’t like other big dogs now. We can walk by them after months of training without him reacting aggressively. He’ll still turn and watch them over his shoulder though if he can. 

Because I made the decision to go to a place where I couldn’t control everything he still gets suspicious and nervous of being attacked by large unknown dogs. It sucks that my decision lead to that change in his personality. 

I’ve included the link to the thread of his attack. The images are graphic but it’s a reality check too:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...-op-care-tips-***warning-graphic-pics***.html


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is your dog park? If it is not then I don't see where you get to tell people whose dog or puppy is not threatening or harming another to to keep out of the dog park. You simply don't have that right. It is not your dog's job to teach somebody else's puppy manners. That is simply not your decision to make.
> 
> As somebody that has frequented so many dog parks with so many different dogs for so many years, this is very much a sore spot with me. Most people on here come on this forum and bash dog parks based on what somebody else told them or something they read. Few speak from personal experience. This thread is creating a bad image of dog parks when clearly it is not the notion of dog parks that is the problem here but one person's sense of entitlement to foist their method of dog raising and training on the others. I hope people following this thread don't think this is typical of what goes on in other dog parks. It would be sad for them to miss out on what can and should be a fun and enjoyable experience with their dogs because they think this is what they can expect.


Dee, this is yet again funny! It's not me "dictating" anything, it's natural dog behavior! If you or anyone else thinks that they can take their little puppy to a dog park, and then somehow dictate how all other dogs can or should behave with their puppy you or they are mistaken. Dogs are dogs! They have their own rules. You can learn from them if you're observant, and maybe "predict" what might happen...but you certainly can't just show up with your own set of expectations and then have any hope of that being the reality you're faced with!

Or maybe you can, and then get continuously disappointed! 

I'm not suggesting anything other than accepting dog behavior for what it is...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kahrg4 said:


> I love the space of dog parks. Love getting to see my pups unfurl and run their lil hearts out with a full body stretch that just eats up the ground. That said, I like others, only go when it’s empty.
> 
> My GSD Cafall was attacked while chasing my other dog when he was 10 months old. He did nothing wrong. Another dog misread a situation and my dog ended up in emergency surgery.
> 
> ...


Kate, you have my sincere sympathies for what happened to your dog! I am not here trying to say dog parks are all fine and or safe or even good for all dogs! I know a few people who have been hospitalized due to injuries sustained in a dog park...and it is a serious matter! But, for people like myself, who've tried to find other venues and have been repeatedly been warned by AC for having their dog off-leash elsewhere, and frankly can't afford the fines, dog parks are a necessity. Making them out to be cesspools of trouble is not helpful. They are what they are. I personally don't see them as bad, and in fact, I am sort of coming around to the idea that they might very well be beneficial. 

One has to not only be aware of the potential for danger, one has to learn, IMHO, to read dog behavior very well in order to stay safe!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Dee, this is yet again funny! It's not me "dictating" anything, it's natural dog behavior! If you or anyone else thinks that they can take their little puppy to a dog park, and then somehow dictate how all other dogs can or should behave with their puppy you or they are mistaken. Dogs are dogs! They have their own rules. You can learn from them if you're observant, and maybe "predict" what might happen...but you certainly can't just show up with your own set of expectations and then have any hope of that being the reality you're faced with!
> 
> Or maybe you can, and then get continuously disappointed!
> 
> I'm not suggesting anything other than accepting dog behavior for what it is...


Not once did I ever see anybody allow somebody else's dog to correct their dog or puppy, nor did any owners of such dog tolerate corrective behaviors in all the years I have been going to dog parks. You are not only setting up your dog and those of others for a dog fight or injury but you are also setting yourself up for conflict with other owners that may escalate to something physical as well. Who sits back and lets their puppy be brutalized by somebody else's dog with that person's blessing and does nothing?

A lot of things are normal dog behavior. Coprophagy is a natural behavior. Having litters twice a year is a natural behavior. Inbreeding can be a natural behavior. Just because they are natural behaviors should we let dogs indulge in these behaviors?

There is nothing that your dog correcting any dog or puppy will teach anything other people need their dogs to know. Things such as fear, aggression or even respect for you dog are not life lessons that most people want their dogs to learn. 

Something else to think about, a neighbor was not so vigilant and their small female Shepherd meted out a correction to their new puppy. The GSD was a fairly docile, low drive dog so I doubt she intended to kill that puppy with that one corrective grab.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Wow! Who ever said anything anywhere in this thread about allowing any puppy or dog to be brutalized by any dog?? I suppose you have your reasons for going there, but it certainly wasn't from anything I ever suggested or mentioned in this thread! Peace okay? It's all good!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

just to lighten the mood a little
https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2018/10/25


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> Wow! Who ever said anything anywhere in this thread about allowing any puppy or dog to be brutalized by any dog?? I suppose you have your reasons for going there, but it certainly wasn't from anything I ever suggested or mentioned in this thread! Peace okay? It's all good!


Hey Tim, in all honestly my comments have more to do with my anti-dog park bias then specifically anything about you and Nyx. When I say tap dancing on the mine field, Its because I think the minute you put a dog into these situations, the spontaneous, random, and just the number of things going on at once, I don't care who it is, you're going to miss something. I think people are kidding themselves into thinking they can control it. My dogs obedience isn't too bad, but I'm never going to put him into a situation like what goes on when there's a group of dogs for the most part, doing what they want.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I know my dog, and she is always under control at this age. Keeping your dog away from potential triggers does absolutely NOTHING to help them get over them!
> 
> And just to clarify, yet again, not a "free pass", the lady that called A.C. had nothing at all to report. She's a new dog owner who became unreasonably anxious...period!
> 
> ...


Here are some things I have observed: one dog setting limits with another dog doesn't necessarily carry over to other dogs.

Intact males definitely have some behaviors that can become obsessive and obnoxious to other dogs--- back to the issue of "natural" dog behavior for a minute- is it "natural" to have intact and spayed/neutered dogs all running free together even though their hormones now dictate that they aren't really acting out the same social behavior all the time?

My 3.5 year old was a stupid adolescent sometimes like I said, and he is not anymore. You said you guarantee that dog will get hurt later if it isn't "schooled". But those just aren't the only 2 options. I continued to expose my dog to other dogs who didn't have major social issues. I did let the one tell him he was being inappropriate but that dog isn't here all the time and the vast majority of what happened was ME over time influencing my dog's behavior but correcting stupid stuff, encouraging not stupid stuff, making sure he was in the right state of mind to meet other dogs. He learned to be a nice adult by: growing up, continuing to socialize with other nice dogs, limits that I put on him, and communicating with other dogs over time and seeing that certain behaviors resulted in certain responses (and none of this involved growling or "schooling")

He is pretty social, and he has never been in a fight in his life. But I also take it as we go and I accept that one day he might not want to do what he does now or be appropriate for it, and that's fine. I honestly never intended for him to have this much social interaction with different dogs but he enjoys it and it hasn't caused any problems so why not. 

I just can't say adamantly enough how much I think that all the dynamics you describe at the dog park are most likely to produce socially dysfunctional dogs and likely to produce issues, fights, injuries, etc.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> @Thecowboysgirl my previous posts clarified some of this stuff. But seriously, my dog IS extremely tolerant of puppies!
> 
> Seriously, if you banned every dog that would protect their toy from another dog in a dog park, you'd always have free access, because no other dogs would ever be allowed to come!
> 
> ...


This is a very big problem in my opinion. Most pet owners that go to a dog park do not want a larger dog "teaching their puppy or dog manners." It is not the job of a dog at the dog park to teach other dogs manners. It is also not the job, role or responsibility of some dog or dog owner to teach other people or their dogs manners at the dog park. 

Why should people with calm, friendly dogs avoid the dog park because one person has a dog that may suddenly become aggressive or growl at other dogs. Any one that thought it was appropriate for their "older dog to help my puppy learn manners" would have a serious issue on their hands. 

What some may fail to realize is that a puppy may be very traumatized by an older dog "schooling" it or teaching it manners. As Steve has correctly said before "perception is reality." In a puppy's mind this could be a very traumatic experience. What if someone is bringing their shy, nervous recently adopted puppy to the dog park to recover from previous traumatic incidents and it happens again and is condoned by the owner of the larger dog? Things might very well be worsened by the actions of the older dog. 

This pretty much sums it up: _The problem isn't the puppies or dogs, it's the lack of understanding of dog behavior of the owners._

Dog parks are for like minded dog owners with social, friendly and non aggressive dogs to interact. It is not the place to for dogs to school other dogs or for owners to allow this inappropriate behavior from their dogs. I would never put my dogs in a position to be dominated, schooled or taught manners by anyones dog. My dogs would not tolerate it for that matter. I also would not put my dogs in a position to intimidate or bully other dogs. This is one of the reasons that I never go to dog parks.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Here is something I'd like to say too-- Tim said "keeping your dog away from potential triggers does nothing to help them get over it"-- quoting from memory so may have a word wrong.

To that I say...yes...I sort of agree.

When somebody gets sober it is not suggested that they eat dinner in a bar 7 nights a week. Especially not the bar they drank in. 

There is a difference between hiding from triggers and tempting fate. a LOT of room in between. 

I personally think it's useful to train around lots of dogs and have a dog who can do whatever their work is without losing their mind because there is a dog there. I even think it is useful for dogs to know how to "speak dog" and interact with other dogs, I just don't think at all that the dog park is the place to do it because given what I have personally seen and what I know from other research I have done, many dog parks are the equivalent of socializing your kid at the county jail.

Some are definitely better than others. But which park you wind up in and which dog interacts with your dog in what way is somewhat a crapshoot. 

I think there are way better ways--- and my opinion is that interacting with fewer dogs with better manners is way better than many dogs some with bad manners, because a dog who has interacted with a few dogs well can probably do that again with any new dog that comes along in the future. A dog that expects other dogs to be stupid and rude from all of these interactions is way more likely to act badly with the next dog that comes along.

Things I think are better ideas are:

-recruiting friends with dogs for group walks
-recruiting friends with appropriate dogs for play-dates if your dogs are a good match
-group classes
-structured dog socials


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Tim, in all honestly my comments have more to do with my anti-dog park bias then specifically anything about you and Nyx. When I say tap dancing on the mine field, Its because I think the minute you put a dog into these situations, the spontaneous, random, and just the number of things going on at once, I don't care who it is, you're going to miss something. *I think people are kidding themselves into thinking they can control it. *My dogs obedience isn't too bad, but I'm never going to put him into a situation like what goes on when there's a group of dogs for the most part, doing what they want.


I think many people don't have other options Steve. As I have said before, I've tried schools, churches, greenways next to creeks, etc., and have been warned repeatedly that dogs cannot be off leash in any venue other than the dog park, period! So it's a fact of life whether I can control it or not LOL!

That and I'm fairly certain I would be Nyx's next victim if I were to try to exercise her exclusively on a leash or long line...to me, that's scarier than a dog park - she's fast, and I'm too old to outrun her!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I think many people don't have other options Steve. As I have said before, I've tried schools, churches, greenways next to creeks, etc., and have been warned repeatedly that dogs cannot be off leash in any venue other than the dog park, period! So it's a fact of life whether I can control it or not LOL!
> 
> That and I'm fairly certain I would be Nyx's next victim if I were to try to exercise her exclusively on a leash or long line...to me, that's scarier than a dog park - she's fast, and I'm too old to outrun her!


3 suggestions, Tim: 

#1, Tracking is technically on a leash, and it takes a lot out of the dog. Maybe consider taking that up? A way to drain a lot of energy out of your dog without breaking rules or going to the dog park

#2 Can you sign up for an agility class? There's an opportunity for a big energy release and running off leash, and it sounds like she likes to play on the agility equipment.

#3 train her to run alongside a bike?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> I think many people don't have other options Steve. As I have said before, I've tried schools, churches, greenways next to creeks, etc., and have been warned repeatedly that dogs cannot be off leash in any venue other than the dog park, period! So it's a fact of life whether I can control it or not LOL!
> 
> That and I'm fairly certain I would be Nyx's next victim if I were to try to exercise her exclusively on a leash or long line...to me, that's scarier than a dog park - she's fast, and I'm too old to outrun her!


You live in Colorado. Train your dog to great recall and get that card that they have in Colorado that gives you off leash privileges in like State parks spread across the state. My friend who lives near Broomfield has one for her Mali mix. They have a brief test to show your dog's OB abilities. If you can't recall your dog she shouldn't be in the dog park either especially as she starts maturing and changing as you described. Let me know if you have never heard of the card, I'll get you info.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I think many people don't have other options Steve. As I have said before, I've tried schools, churches, greenways next to creeks, etc., and have been warned repeatedly that dogs cannot be off leash in any venue other than the dog park, period! So it's a fact of life whether I can control it or not LOL!
> 
> That and I'm fairly certain I would be Nyx's next victim if I were to try to exercise her exclusively on a leash or long line...to me, that's scarier than a dog park - she's fast, and I'm too old to outrun her!


Tim, have you tried isolated areas of shopping mall parking lots or behind them? Or industrial parks? Undeveloped areas of cemeteries? Those areas can be found in every community.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CometDog said:


> You live in Colorado. Train your dog to great recall and get that card that they have in Colorado that gives you off leash privileges in like State parks spread across the state. My friend who lives near Broomfield has one for her Mali mix. They have a brief test to show your dog's OB abilities. If you can't recall your dog she shouldn't be in the dog park either especially as she starts maturing and changing as you described. Let me know if you have never heard of the card, I'll get you info.


I never heard of such a thing. That is a fantastic idea!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’m in the same situation. I have nowhere to run my dogs off leash. A dog park is not an option. I can’t imagine dropping Carly or Russ into a dog park, lol. First time a big unruly adolescent dog jumped on one of them, it would be fight on. Neither one of them would put up with that nonsense. 

I think the suggestions of tracking, agility, and biking are really good.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

tim_s_adams said:


> Nyx is now 22 months.... She seems to have emerged from that a little more aggressive toward 5-7 month old puppies for some reason, and it has caused some issues recently.


It's not just dogs who tolerate the actions of a puppy (as opposed to putting up with an adult dog) humans do the same thing. Nyx isn't a puppy anymore, she's a full grown GSD. Her actions are going to be scrutinized a lot closer than they use to be. You can't expect strangers to accept what she does because you believe it's how dogs interact. She's lost her "puppy pass" with humans. If she continues with this behavior the complaints will become more frequent. 



tim_s_adams said:


> The thing is, it's partially a dog thing that none of us can control or dictate... I promised to do better in the future, but at the same time explained why totally squashing this behavior might be counter productive in the long run...My dog isn't hurting his puppy, just schooling it. The rough stuff will end of its own accord if we let it...


I do understand what you're saying but the dynamics between multiple dogs in a home environment aren't the same as the dynamics at a dog park. In a home environment pack order develops over time and it's often fluid. The key is, we control all the dogs. We know their quirks, strengths and weaknesses. We know when to step in and when to step back. You don't have that luxury at a dog park. You don't get to decide whether or not your dog is hurting someone's puppy, the puppy owner decides. 

Trust me when I say, Nyx will at some point "school" the wrong dog and you're going to have a fight on your hands. Nyx will be the dog people remember as having had complaints about her in the past. It's going to be her fault whether she provokes the fight or not. You either need to stop the behavior or stop taking her to the dog park. My advice is IF you continue to take Nyx to the dog park you need to be on her like white on rice when she's with younger dogs. The minute her behavior goes from normal adult/puppy interaction to dominant/aggressive she needs to be disciplined.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Ah, wanted to add that my dogs can wander through a dog show, or any dog event for that matter, and they will ignore the other dogs.. a dog park free-for-all would be another thing entirely. 

Years ago, before smartphones, I decided to check out a really nice dog park in my city. I took my Dobe, who was about 5 years old, stable, and very well-mannered. In typical Dobe fashion, she never left my side as we wandered around. Of course a big ill-mannered adolescent dog came flying up to her and got in her face. She never moved towards him, but showed him every tooth she had. I shooed him away. She was a pretty tough girl, and I had no doubt she would've beat the snot out of him if pushed. Needless to say, it wasn’t our cup of tea! The only dogs there that seemed to mind their own business were the labs who were playing in the pond.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I think many people don't have other options Steve. As I have said before, I've tried schools, churches, greenways next to creeks, etc., and have been warned repeatedly that dogs cannot be off leash in any venue other than the dog park, period! So it's a fact of life whether I can control it or not LOL!
> 
> That and I'm fairly certain I would be Nyx's next victim if I were to try to exercise her exclusively on a leash or long line...to me, that's scarier than a dog park - she's fast, and I'm too old to outrun her!


Between you and I Tim, I've never been able to outrun a German Shepherd. Starting Saturday morning Doc has probably had a total of 15mins off leash. He's had plenty of walks, covered a few miles, but anything off leash was brief and here and there on those walks. There's fact of life everywhere. He's doing fine. I'm not trying to change your mind, just pointing out that they do fine in our routine. You don't have to go crazy to provide for them.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I also do plenty of obedience and rarely do much off lead. I may use a 30' long line and have my dog drag it or toss his leash over his shoulder if I am doing off lead heeling. I will use a tab on his prong collar and sometimes an E collar. I have never had trouble finding places that I could go to work my dogs off lead if I needed too. 

I will go to fenced in ball fields, industrial parks or corporate office parks that have large grassy areas after business hours or on the weekends. In the past I've gone to Churches, businesses, farmers, etc and asked permission to use their fields for obedience. Many have said yes and given permission to use their property. I have always been respectful and left it cleaner than when I arrived. I've always had access to places to track and work my dogs. I've never taken my dogs to a dog park and have never had a need to let my dogs run with loose with other dogs. 

Boru and Francesca, my female GSD can run and play together in my yard. That is all the doggy interaction they need.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

CometDog said:


> You live in Colorado. Train your dog to great recall and get that card that they have in Colorado that gives you off leash privileges in like State parks spread across the state. My friend who lives near Broomfield has one for her Mali mix. They have a brief test to show your dog's OB abilities. If you can't recall your dog she shouldn't be in the dog park either especially as she starts maturing and changing as you described. Let me know if you have never heard of the card, I'll get you info.


This would be a great idea, if it were true. Unfortunately it isn't. You mentioned this before so I looked into it. In the state of Colorado there are only a handful of state parks that allow leashed dogs, all others ban pets entirely. It's spelled out very clearly on the state's web site. Within an hour or two from my house there are 3 county parks that allow dogs off-leash, but there is no obedience requirement...just a fee. There is also an off-leash hiking area about a half hour away, no fee or obedience requirement...Button Rock it's called, on the way up to Rocky Mountain National park, and we've been there, but it's not something we'd do on a daily basis.

My dog's recall causes people's jaws drop in amazement, unless there's rabbits...we're still working on that one!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> CometDog said:
> 
> 
> > You live in Colorado. Train your dog to great recall and get that card that they have in Colorado that gives you off leash privileges in like State parks spread across the state. My friend who lives near Broomfield has one for her Mali mix. They have a brief test to show your dog's OB abilities. If you can't recall your dog she shouldn't be in the dog park either especially as she starts maturing and changing as you described. Let me know if you have never heard of the card, I'll get you info.
> ...


When I lived in situations like you describe, I just drove wherever I had to go. And when we moved I made sure I moved to a place where I could do what I want with my dogs. I hate leashes. My dogs are offleash 90% of their lives

If I were you, I'd try to get to that hiking place 2x a week for a good offleash hike and get creative the rest of the time with all the other suggestions.

If you went tracking 2x a week, and offleash hike 1 or 2 per week I bet you could really satisfy your dog and never go to the dog park again.

I've posted in community forums asking for fields to track in and gotten access to some. Of course there are hundreds of hayfields around here. But just a thought.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> When I lived in situations like you describe, I just drove wherever I had to go. And when we moved I made sure I moved to a place where I could do what I want with my dogs. I hate leashes. My dogs are offleash 90% of their lives
> 
> If I were you, I'd try to get to that hiking place 2x a week for a good offleash hike and get creative the rest of the time with all the other suggestions.
> 
> ...


This is very similar to our routine. 2-3 trips to the NF a week plus a walk or games thrown in here and there. Our NF trips take a lot out of them and often a rest day afterwards is good for them and they cope well it. Those down days are good for short training and finding all the twigs, bur’s, and other crap that gets stuck in my coated boys hair.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jim and I probably do things pretty similar. Who doesn't just casually let go of the line here and there? Like I said Tim, I'm not trying to change your mind about dog parks, but the idea that its impossible to get your dog some exercise without getting a ticket in Colorado, is hard to believe.


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> That and I'm fairly certain I would be Nyx's next victim if I were to try to exercise her exclusively on a leash or long line...to me, that's scarier than a dog park - she's fast, and I'm too old to outrun her!


While I realize this was probably partially stated in jest, the fallacy of logic needles me. If you’d have to outrun her to be able to exercise on leash then you don’t have the control over her you’ve claimed. 

There are thousands of people living in apartments who exercise their dogs plenty without using dog parks. The argument that you have no other options doesn’t hold water. The argument that you’ve decided to go to dog parks and are not interested in pursuing alternatives; that seems more true.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

There are a couple problems with Button Rock. One, the distance from where Tim and I live. It isn't horrible. A half an hour is doable if you don't have much else going on. BUT be prepared for 1+ hours sometimes because of traffic headed into the mountains. And tourists drive so slowly.

Also, you have to walk about 2 miles to get to the actual dog off leash area, which normally isn't the end of the world either. You do have to consider the fact that you really should be out of the mountains in Colorado before 1 o'clock or so, due to the storms. So factor the time it takes to actually walk to the off leash area before you head out for the day.

Plus, Button Rock is one of the very few places that allow dogs in Colorado, off leash or not. Therefore, it is a very popular spot, and boom, just like that you basically have a dog park up in the mountains instead of in the city. The few times I have actually let my dog off leash up there, she has been accosted by other ill-behaved dogs also off leash. I now don't even go there because of how bad it has gotten.

Basically, we don't have any options for letting our dogs off leash in Colorado. The few places that do allow it are completely swamped with dogs. The laws are extremely strict here, and we cannot get away with allowing our dogs off leash in churches, parks, school yards, or ball fields. It just doesn't work.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This is your dog park? If it is not then I don't see where you get to tell people whose dog or puppy is not threatening or harming another to to keep out of the dog park. You simply don't have that right. It is not your dog's job to teach somebody else's puppy manners. That is simply not your decision to make.
> 
> As somebody that has frequented so many dog parks with so many different dogs for so many years, this is very much a sore spot with me. Most people on here come on this forum and bash dog parks based on what somebody else told them or something they read. Few speak from personal experience. This thread is creating a bad image of dog parks when clearly it is not the notion of dog parks that is the problem here but one person's sense of entitlement to foist their method of dog raising and training on the others. I hope people following this thread don't think this is typical of what goes on in other dog parks. It would be sad for them to miss out on what can and should be a fun and enjoyable experience with their dogs because they think this is what they can expect.


Yes and no. The dog parks near me both have fenced separate area for small dogs and pups. If the smaller dogs can't or don't do well in the larger area they are expected to use the smaller area. Posted clearly in the rules. In some instances people are perfectly justified in asking people to go to the proper area.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

For me to hike with the Punk I am facing at least a two and a half hour drive, but I purposely go to areas that are off the end of the world! 
I think it's fabulous that people have access to fenced and managed dog parks, I don't. Around here they seem to be a haven for people with out of control beasts and although the law says you must have control of your dog it just does not happen. 
I take full advantage of the weekend-empty industrial areas, and since I am more comfortable at night I can be found walking at 2am or 4am through sleep quiet neighborhoods. I lived for years on the edge of a tiny industrial area and the area police officers loved that I strolled with the dogs all night. We sometimes helped out (Sabi was well known) and often stopped for coffee with them. 


If possible could Nyx use the park at night for exercise?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

huntergreen said:


> Yes and no. The dog parks near me both have fenced separate area for small dogs and pups. If the smaller dogs can't or don't do well in the larger area they are expected to use the smaller area. Posted clearly in the rules. In some instances people are perfectly justified in asking people to go to the proper area.


This isn't about size of the dog but whether somebody has the right to force their raising and training ideas on another person and their dog / puppy in a public dog park.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tim, have you ever been to Twin Lakes? It's basically a dog park that surrounds what I would call a pond, but the dogs can be off leash to swim and play fetch. Dogs mostly ignore each other there because they are all so busy swimming or walking around the lake.

I personally rarely use dog parks even though there aren't many off leash options near me. I prefer to let the dogs run around on a long line at the park. It's safer to me, and my dogs have never minded. My boy preferred running at the park or playing fetch over being around other dogs any day.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> If possible could Nyx use the park at night for exercise?



If it's like it is here, the dog park is closed when it's dark. And it IS enforced.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This isn't about size of the dog but whether somebody has the right to force their raising and training ideas on another person and their dog / puppy in a public dog park.


Not enforce their training and raising ideas, but he/she can enforce the rules of the dog park.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This isn't about size of the dog but whether somebody has the right to force their raising and training ideas on another person and their dog / puppy in a public dog park.


This is so incredibly far from the reality of the situation, it's like a whole separate conversation! This is about how dogs interact, not my idea, theirs! And my dog is not the only dog doing this, they all do it! For the past 2 days I have allowed no contact between my dog and this puppy, but this particular owner is constantly fending dogs away from his puppy and going around complaining to people! The funny thing is, at the same time with the same older dogs there are several other puppies that same age running around playing happily without intervention. And yes they do get schooled by the older dogs from time to time. 

The AC officer I spoke with on the phone, and the one I spoke with in person yesterday, both instantly recognized it as normal dog behavior. The AC officer who called me told the puppy owner she had 2 options. A: keep her puppy out of the park until it was older, or B: use the little dog area. Not my idea, not me forcing anything on anyone, and for the past 2 days at least, not my dog schooling those puppies. Nyx did pin her good friend Hazel a few times though, for her incessant face licking behavior. Hazel's owner understands normal dog behavior though, so no intervention was required...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Pytheis said:


> Tim, have you ever been to Twin Lakes? It's basically a dog park that surrounds what I would call a pond, but the dogs can be off leash to swim and play fetch. Dogs mostly ignore each other there because they are all so busy swimming or walking around the lake.
> 
> I personally rarely use dog parks even though there aren't many off leash options near me. I prefer to let the dogs run around on a long line at the park. It's safer to me, and my dogs have never minded. My boy preferred running at the park or playing fetch over being around other dogs any day.


We go there sometimes too. Just another dog park, but it's nice when it's hot out.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kahrg4 said:


> While I realize this was probably partially stated in jest, the fallacy of logic needles me. If you’d have to outrun her to be able to exercise on leash then you don’t have the control over her you’ve claimed.
> 
> There are thousands of people living in apartments who exercise their dogs plenty without using dog parks. The argument that you have no other options doesn’t hold water. The argument that you’ve decided to go to dog parks and are not interested in pursuing alternatives; that seems more true.


Very perceptive Kate, and almost correct! I meant that Nyx would kill me, not that I'd have to outrun her on leash for exercise! And yes, it was totally in jest, not partially!

But I actually very much like the dog park! I love interacting with the wide variety of dogs there, and I'm convinced going there has made my dog more well rounded and tolerant. I know all the dog's that come regularly by name, and greet them all when they arrive (if they're open to that...I really do love dogs!). It sort of reminds me of the pack of dogs I grew up with.

When I was looking for alternatives it was for training and while Nyx was in heat. I was caught with her off-leash 3 times during her first heat, and told that next time I would be fined. Fines start at $125.00 and go up to $550.00! So really the only alternative available that anyone has suggested would be to find a farm somewhere...it has to be private property. And I'm actually going to look for something ...not for daily exercise, but for training. The only thing that would stop me from going to the dog park though, is if my dog's temperament changed such that it no longer worked for her. And even then I'd probably visit without her LOL!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

My goodness. Has Colorado become such a Nanny State?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

IDK like I said my friend in Colorado, in Broomfield does have a card and does not have these struggles where her only option for a sound dog is a dog park with oodles of strange dogs and strangers with their misconceptions of dogs in general. 

I'm going to have to go "cry me a river" here. Ever see the opening credits to The Sopranos? That is where I live and grew up. Every time the basement floods I hope to have Jimmy Hoffa float by so I can cash in. It's industrial, I am border by Newark NJ. All parks are county controlled and strict leash laws are everywhere. I go for a leashed run with my dog. 1 hour. Every time I get 10 min I'll play some bonding exercises with him.

I have a full time career, I have joint custody of my kids so every other 7 days I am a single full time working mom with 3 kids under 12 and 2 are severely disabled. I often drive an hour plus to do IPO on a Saturday when I don't have the kids. I drive 1.5 hours to hike when I dont have the kids. The 15 or 16 days a month where I am pegged with my kids to the house I do leashed walks on my breaks or I pay the sitter to stay an extra hour so I can do a run with the dog. 

I would respect you saying I want my dog to do dog parks and that is it...but acting like it is the "only way" is just obtuse, honestly. You came here with the "blues" over how your last session turned out, people here are telling you man, don't do it for now until you find another way. People you have expressed a great respect for their knowledge in other threads have given you an opinion here, and you are acting like you are stuck in some universe where a public dog park is your only avenue to dog social success. I say this in in a friendly caring way...step back absorb and reassess.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

huntergreen said:


> Not enforce their training and raising ideas, but he/she can enforce the rules of the dog park.


I have been to many dog parks and have never seen where aggressive dog behavior was given a stamp of approval.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm just going to throw this out there, but in my opinion, and this is only mine- if you have an intact dog, and you are having aggression issues that appear to be hormone related (ex: around a heat cycle)- then either neuter your animal, or don't bring him or her to the dog park.

I am great friends with an intact male dog who is incredibly socially savvy, never aggressive, and knows how to diffuse aggression towards him. He's not so keen on playing with other dogs, doesn't discourage it but doesn't invite it, but he does great at the dog park. 

But, honestly, the dog park is really not the place for intact animals, just as a general rule. 

Maybe this opinion is partly due to a recent wake-up call in my household on the POWER of hormones, but never discount the role hormones play in behavior. I taught high school... and sometimes I'd feel that a single-gender classroom sure makes sense at that age!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> This is so incredibly far from the reality of the situation, it's like a whole separate conversation! This is about how dogs interact, not my idea, theirs! And my dog is not the only dog doing this, they all do it! For the past 2 days I have allowed no contact between my dog and this puppy, but this particular owner is constantly fending dogs away from his puppy and going around complaining to people! The funny thing is, at the same time with the same older dogs there are several other puppies that same age running around playing happily without intervention. And yes they do get schooled by the older dogs from time to time.
> 
> The AC officer I spoke with on the phone, and the one I spoke with in person yesterday, both instantly recognized it as normal dog behavior. The AC officer who called me told the puppy owner she had 2 options. A: keep her puppy out of the park until it was older, or B: use the little dog area. Not my idea, not me forcing anything on anyone, and for the past 2 days at least, not my dog schooling those puppies. Nyx did pin her good friend Hazel a few times though, for her incessant face licking behavior. Hazel's owner understands normal dog behavior though, so no intervention was required...


Like I said in a previous post, coprophagy is a normal dog behavior for some dogs. Do you correct your dog if she were to try a sample in the dog park?

All dogs do not do corrective aggressive behavior, especially at a dog park. As others have said, maybe your dog should not be there then.

Let's not get started on today's animal control as that certainly is another topic and most are clueless as to normal dog behavior. That is one field today that no longer draws a quality type of person, let alone one savvy in dog behavior.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Like I said in a previous post, coprophagy is a normal dog behavior for some dogs. Do you correct your dog if she were to try a sample in the dog park?


Oh come on! My sweet Nyx wouldn't be caught dead doing anything so disgusting! My last dog, did not understand why everyone didn't do it LOL! And no, I never corrected her for it, just discouraged it...never took her to a dog park though!



MineAreWorkingline said:


> All dogs do not do corrective aggressive behavior, especially at a dog park. As others have said, maybe your dog should not be there then.


Yeah, but the puppies know who the cool kids are, and tend to hang out with them. Nyx is very cool, so she does attract the puppies!



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Let's not get started on today's animal control as that certainly is another topic and most are clueless as to normal dog behavior. That is one field today that no longer draws a quality type of person, let alone one savvy in dog behavior.


Sorry to hear that's been your experience. Our AC officers here are very knowledgeable and qualified!

In any event, check out the interesting work of Aimmee Sadler @ https://dogsplayingforlife.com

Might open up some new avenues of thought regarding the whole dog park scene!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Oh come on! My sweet Nyx wouldn't be caught dead doing anything so disgusting! My last dog, did not understand why everyone didn't do it LOL! And no, I never corrected her for it, just discouraged it...never took her to a dog park though!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That has nothing to do with unfettered, inter dog aggression and corrections in a dog park. That it not acceptable behavior nor is it normal dog behavior for dogs that are expected to interact in a dog park. That is the kind of behavior that tips one off that a dog does not belong in a dog park.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That has nothing to do with unfettered, inter dog aggression and corrections in a dog park. That it not acceptable behavior nor is it normal dog behavior for dogs that are expected to interact in a dog park. That is the kind of behavior that tips one off that a dog does not belong in a dog park.


If by "that" you mean Aimmee's work, I beg to differ. Her organization helps rescues create their own dog parks! And, if you download and read their instructional pdf, you'll see that they suggest lettings dogs work things out for themselves to the extent possible! They've had amazing success all over the country, though they were met with many of the same concerns that people are voicing here...i.e. dog fights, increased aggression, reactivity, traumatizing more timid dogs, etc.

Virtually none of those things ever materialized! What they did see was dogs getting along just fine, essentially on their own terms, a sharp decrease in aggressive behaviors, less barrier frustration in the kennel areas etc. etc. etc.!

Download and read their pdf! One of the ladies I see at the dog park daily told me that the class I recently mentioned wanting to get Nyx into was actually originally started by Aimmee Sadler. I would have loved to have met her, but it was before I got Nyx...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> If by "that" you mean Aimmee's work, I beg to differ. Her organization helps rescues create their own dog parks! And, if you download and read their instructional pdf, you'll see that they suggest lettings dogs work things out for themselves to the extent possible! They've had amazing success all over the country, though they were met with many of the same concerns that people are voicing here...i.e. dog fights, increased aggression, reactivity, traumatizing more timid dogs, etc.
> 
> Virtually none of those things ever materialized! What they did see was dogs getting along just fine, essentially on their own terms, a sharp decrease in aggressive behaviors, less barrier frustration in the kennel areas etc. etc. etc.!
> 
> Download and read their pdf! One of the ladies I see at the dog park daily told me that the class I recently mentioned wanting to get Nyx into was actually originally started by Aimmee Sadler. I would have loved to have met her, but it was before I got Nyx...


**** Russell started large field socialization long ago and any aggressive behaviors were corrected even if it was from the person that was standing the closest. Dogs did not correct each other or work things out. He fixed all those problems that were created by owners not knowing how or refusing to correct inappropriate dog on dog aggression. https://www.thedogmanmovie.com/

You are still missing the entire point. Dog parks were created so people could have a safe place to let their dogs run off leash and play with other dogs. The key word is play. Corrections and letting them work it out is not play, it is aggression. Dogs with aggression issues don't belong in dog parks where other dogs are playing and most dog parks have rules forbidding dog aggression and they have that rule for good reason.

Another thing you forget, these are German Shepherds. Some of them have a tendency to do a serious bark and hold on their owners when they feel that a correction is unfair. If they won't take an unfair correction from the person that raised them since they were 8 weeks old, what makes you think that they are going to take an unfair correction from a strange dog?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> **** Russell started large field socialization long ago and any aggressive behaviors were corrected even if it was from the person that was standing the closest. Dogs did not correct each other or work things out. He fixed all those problems that were created by owners not knowing how or refusing to correct inappropriate dog on dog aggression. https://www.thedogmanmovie.com/
> 
> You are still missing the entire point. Dog parks were created so people could have a safe place to let their dogs run off leash and play with other dogs. The key word is play. Corrections and letting them work it out is not play, it is aggression. Dogs with aggression issues don't belong in dog parks where other dogs are playing and most dog parks have rules forbidding dog aggression and they have that rule for good reason.
> 
> Another thing you forget, these are German Shepherds. Some of them have a tendency to do a serious bark and hold on their owners when they feel that a correction is unfair. If they won't take an unfair correction from the person that raised them since they were 8 weeks old, what makes you think that they are going to take an unfair correction from a strange dog?


Yes. I am not as familiar with the woman you mentioned Tim, although I did meet another woman who runs a shelter and is implementing her program. I met that woman at a seminar put on by two men who both learned first hand from **** Russell. And they put a lot of dogs together in a big field, some of whom had pretty major social issues.

I guess I can't really speak for the woman who mentioned, but for these other people I feel like I have a clue because I have watched them do it first hand. It may not look like it if you watch a 20 second snippet of the middle of the social, but it is actually very structured. There are enough knowledgeable people with buggy whips stationed throughout, the dog gets an immediate warning and a correction if they don't cease and desist inappropriate behavior. On top of that the handlers or owners of all the dogs have an important role to play in things going right and it is not by standing around socializing with each other.

They DO focus on the dogs learning to communicate with each other but not at all in the ways you mentioned your dog doing-- that behavior would be swiftly and harshly corrected if it ever came to that. The communication that they do get better at is much more subtle than that, and that is what is encouraged. And whenever possible the correction comes long before there is an actual dust up.

The outcome of that type of socialization can be overwhelmingly positive. But it's night and day from what goes on at a dog park!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> If by "that" you mean Aimmee's work, I beg to differ. Her organization helps rescues create their own dog parks! And, if you download and read their instructional pdf, you'll see that they suggest lettings dogs work things out for themselves to the extent possible! They've had amazing success all over the country, though they were met with many of the same concerns that people are voicing here...i.e. dog fights, increased aggression, reactivity, traumatizing more timid dogs, etc.
> 
> Virtually none of those things ever materialized! What they did see was dogs getting along just fine, essentially on their own terms, a sharp decrease in aggressive behaviors, less barrier frustration in the kennel areas etc. etc. etc.!
> 
> Download and read their pdf! One of the ladies I see at the dog park daily told me that the class I recently mentioned wanting to get Nyx into was actually originally started by Aimmee Sadler. I would have loved to have met her, but it was before I got Nyx...


Maybe the way they are implementing Aimee's theory there are not dog fights but you already said YOUR dog has been in a fight-- I think you said it went on for a minute before you could take her out of it? Over a toy.

You started this thread saying YOUR dog was having an increased incidence of aggression. Now I know you have since said that your dog is actually not aggressive, but in the beginning you did say she was being "more aggressive", those were your words.

Two other dog owners were distressed enough by your dog's behavior toward their dogs to confront you and one reported you to AC.

So regardless of what Aimmee's experience was, your own report indicates that is not the case with your dog.

You have stated that you enjoy the dog park so much that you would go without your dog. I think that's the bottom line. You enjoy it there, and you will continue to go no matter what. I believe that may be coloring the way you think about all of this.

By the way, some dogs ARE traumatized by the behavior you described your dog doing-- I see it literally all the time.

Lastly, I could not agree more that you should spay your dog. I assume you will continue to take her there. I have been told that other (speutered) dogs can even get testy with each other if they smell a bitch coming into season-- 

And sometimes dogs are more interested in the ones who are not speutered...which may even create unwanted attention for your female which will make her more likely to act out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

This will probably insult some, but as I read back through this and think about previous similar threads, I think a big reason for my dog park bias and my dismissive attitude for behaviorists and their "work" and theories is the reason why I have dogs. Even when I've been in clubs or any organization, doing anything formal, I get my dogs for me. I don't own a dog to be my invitation to a social life, I don't look for an audience or want my dog to be ok running loose with other dogs. If they are, fine, but I'm not putting anything resembling effort into it. He's mine, my time with my dog is with my dog. For me obedience is for a purpose, and I depend on it. I use it for my dog and I to enjoy it, and enforcing it in a dog park to me serves no purpose and there's no enjoyment for the dog or me.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't own a dog to be my invitation to a social life,........ I don't look for an audience .........,I'm not putting anything resembling effort into it.





Well.......maybe if you and your dog bought some matching snappy dog park outfits...you'd have a regular hoot.......and be the talk of the dog park....to boot




SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ha, its Super-Rhymin-G !


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I certainly don't have any interest in meeting people via my dogs...let me tell you if you don't know, what happens EVERY time you go in public with a service dog.

People stop you wherever you are in order to tell you about every dog they have ever owned, probably also how it died, how long ago that was, and of what.

They then want to know my service dog's name. If I answer, I lie, because I don't want my dogs having to ignore their name being spoken. Invariably the next thing the person will do is try to get my dog's attention by saying their name. The dog is not supposed to pay attention to the general public so self defeating to tell the people the dog's name.

Then they will tell me how hard it is for them not to pet my dog. At which point I suppose I am supposed to console them.

If we've made it this far then they want to know how they can train their dog to behave as well as my service dog.

I've gotten so much less friendly as the years go on. 

Oops sorry guys I am ranting.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Oh I socialize with my dog. With likeminded people. I've made some very good new friends at IPO club. My friend that I have become close to since last November when I got Valor, and who is my handler mentor..we train most a.ms in the county park. She and her boy will be going for IPO 2 on the day I am doing my BH. Our dogs work/bond with their handlers side by side while pretty much accepting each other, but not focused on each other. They enjoy the exercises, you can see it on their faces and body language. We take long walks, we went to the beach the other day (dogs allowed on during off season whooohoo). 

So I make friends like people do, and my dog adores his handler like dogs do. Everyone happy, secure, no stress. Until some clueless person allows their dog to pull them to us while saying "can they meeeeet". Then we all get annoyed lol 

Valor is neutral but he definitely does not like a strange dog getting in his immediate face. There will be snarls. By dogs AND handlers. Except when he got jumped by two Airedales that were off lead on a trail with bells around their necks so their owner can find them (eye roll). They sprung all around him and over him, it was kind of funny in hindsight...he just sat there with a perplexed look on his face. Curly spring loaded dogs lol They were bouncing around like Tigger from Winnie The Pooh.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> This will probably insult some, but as I read back through this and think about previous similar threads, I think a big reason for my dog park bias and my dismissive attitude for behaviorists and their "work" and theories is the reason why I have dogs. Even when I've been in clubs or any organization, doing anything formal, I get my dogs for me. I don't own a dog to be my invitation to a social life, I don't look for an audience or want my dog to be ok running loose with other dogs. If they are, fine, but I'm not putting anything resembling effort into it. He's mine, my time with my dog is with my dog. For me obedience is for a purpose, and I depend on it. I use it for my dog and I to enjoy it, and enforcing it in a dog park to me serves no purpose and there's no enjoyment for the dog or me.


This makes sense to me and to each their own. My interest in "dogs running free together" is because I board dogs and social dogs who can exercise with each other have a much better time, kennel better, and have often fewer behavior problems while boarding. So I set about to learn what I could learn to do a better job at that and keep everyone safer. 

I also have plenty of boarders who aren't social in one way or another and they go out alone or with their family group and that's fine.

Speaking for my own dogs, my one does enjoy meeting dogs and playing with dogs. But we aren't a good example for mostly anyone else because I have access to lots of dogs that I know at least somewhat in an environment I have control over which just isn't obviously normal life for most people. If I didn't do what I do, my dog would probably have nothing to do with any dog outside my family and he would be totally fine. It is not something I would have sought out for him.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What an interesting turn this thread has taken. I by no means have dogs so that I can meet other people. The thought never occurred to me to do so nor does dog ownership appeal to me for that reason. On the other hand, I do not have a problem with meeting new people, especially like minded people, such as dog lovers. I have met a lot of really fantastic people via my dogs, some in a dog park, some on the trails, some in Lowes, and a variety of other places. I would not have had opportunity to meet some of these people if it weren't for my dogs. I guess it depends on the type of person you are, some may be more content with close family and a few friends, others are more open to exploring new experiences and possible friendships with others with various shades of gray in between.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Says it all...


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

CometDog said:


> Oh I socialize with my dog. With likeminded people. I've made some very good new friends at IPO club. My friend that I have become close to since last November when I got Valor, and who is my handler mentor..we train most a.ms in the county park. She and her boy will be going for IPO 2 on the day I am doing my BH. Our dogs work/bond with their handlers side by side while pretty much accepting each other, but not focused on each other. They enjoy the exercises, you can see it on their faces and body language. We take long walks, we went to the beach the other day (dogs allowed on during off season whooohoo).
> 
> So I make friends like people do, and my dog adores his handler like dogs do. Everyone happy, secure, no stress. Until some clueless person allows their dog to pull them to us while saying "can they meeeeet". Then we all get annoyed lol
> 
> Valor is neutral but he definitely does not like a strange dog getting in his immediate face. There will be snarls. By dogs AND handlers. Except when he got jumped by two Airedales that were off lead on a trail with bells around their necks so their owner can find them (eye roll). They sprung all around him and over him, it was kind of funny in hindsight...he just sat there with a perplexed look on his face. Curly spring loaded dogs lol They were bouncing around like Tigger from Winnie The Pooh.


I feel similarly, but also relate to what Steve said. I have dogs because I want to work with them. I enjoy training, and I greatly enjoy getting to know each of my dogs and building a bond with them. The fact that I have met some great people through training is just a bonus. I enjoy socializing with my training friends, I enjoy watching their dogs work. We learn from one another, and there is never any pressure to turn into fur mommies, lol. I KNOW they understand dogs. When I got my most recent puppy, their dogs and puppies were who I socialized him with. 

I don't do dog parks because I don’t believe my dogs need to interact with strange dogs. I do not want to interact with dog park people, either. All of my dogs enjoy all of the training we do, and so do I. I don’t feel the need to prove my dogs have nice obedience to strangers I may never see again, and I’m not willing to risk running into the wrong dog (or owner) while there. My dogs enjoy nose work, tracking, obedience and agility, where they work with me and their mental and physical needs are addressed. They of course just get to be dogs, and go hiking, run alongside the bike, play with each other, etc. but they are happiest when they are DOING things.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I definitely enjoy my GSD dog club and dog show friends, but our dogs don’t play together. Once the puppy stage is over, our dogs are kept separate.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This makes sense to me and to each their own. My interest in "dogs running free together" is because I board dogs and social dogs who can exercise with each other have a much better time, kennel better, and have often fewer behavior problems while boarding. So I set about to learn what I could learn to do a better job at that and keep everyone safer.
> 
> I also have plenty of boarders who aren't social in one way or another and they go out alone or with their family group and that's fine.
> 
> Speaking for my own dogs, my one does enjoy meeting dogs and playing with dogs. But we aren't a good example for mostly anyone else because I have access to lots of dogs that I know at least somewhat in an environment I have control over which just isn't obviously normal life for most people. If I didn't do what I do, my dog would probably have nothing to do with any dog outside my family and he would be totally fine. It is not something I would have sought out for him.


I agree that social dogs can make life easier, especially in a boarding situation. I view that as more structured play, though, where the temperament of each of the dogs are known and understood. Two of my dogs do fine in these types of situations. They did not learn to be social with other dogs from going to a dog park, though. Or from being “schooled” by dogs that were unknown to them.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I know my dog, and she is always under control at this age. Keeping your dog away from potential triggers does absolutely NOTHING to help them get over them!
> 
> And just to clarify, yet again, not a "free pass", the lady that called A.C. had nothing at all to report. She's a new dog owner who became unreasonably anxious...period!
> 
> ...


Sorry if I'm making you so defensive. Not my intention...sincerely. I was just trying to help. And from the story you told, it seemed like you needed a different POV. And I'm sure that you're more of an experienced dog owner than I. Next time you post a new thread, I'll read but won't comment. I certainly don't need that attitude directed at me. Cheers.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Socially savvy is a huge bonus for me in a pup/dog. Because I hike a lot, it's much easier if the pup can be neutral to strange dogs, and know to avoid unfriendly ones, and greet friendly ones without a problem. I prefer neutrality, but sometimes a la-bro-doodley comes barrelling up to us "just friendly" and I'd vastly prefer she knows that dog isn't a threat vs. having to call dog in and heel her or down her until the dog is out of the way. Eh, I do that anyway for my less friendly girl (nothing wrong with her she just really doesn't care to make dog friends), but it just makes life a bit more relaxed in this crazy dog "friends" -everywhere world we live in these days. 

I selected a pup on the more social end of the breeding scale for this reason. Just to make my life easier. She's still got all it takes for sport and work, so why not get a social dog. She is becoming more neutral as she matures, which is what I like to see in a working dog. But I want a pup to be almost obnoxiously social, particularly in my breed. (ideally). I've seen enough pups now to know that less social pups tend to mature with some nerve issues. (again generalizing)

As for the dog park, I probably still wouldn't take her to one, we see dogs on the trail and I want her to be neutral/unexcited so why make dogs a big deal? 

Also, she's going to stay intact. I have no interest in dealing with other dogs and hormonal fun. Hormones, ya'll don't disocunt the power of hormones!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'd be curious to see the difference a correction from a strange dog has on a puppy, compared to one from it's own home. 
And as far as dog parks go. I have no problem with them. Until the dog expert shows up and wants to run the show. Most of those experts like to tell everyone what to do with their dogs or how to raise them. They can be overbearing and a little too confident. 
My dog, my rules.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Ok, I have a shepherd because I want people to "git". I am not a social person, in fact the last assessment that was done on me was "antisocial, displays no real attachment with a borderline lack of social conscience." Let me be clear, I purposely chose a career that put me alone, in a truck, with a dog for most of my waking hours and our job was to find people and tell them to get out. I did not need a degree to tell me I don't enjoy the company of people. All that said dog parks are not my deal.

However, Bud was pretty social with other dogs and enjoyed playing. He never really outgrew the puppy play stage. He was however absolutely fearless and if a fight was your deal he had no issues with complying. Sabi was tolerant and a bit dismissive of random, strange dogs. She reacted poorly to males trying to woo her, and had zero tolerance for pushy and rude. She was always good with dogs put in her care, but pushy, cocky strangers were asking for a beat down. Lex was sweet and submissive with most dogs and always up for a game of chase. She was much more likely to run away then accept a fight and subtle signals would send her off in another direction.

None of those three were good candidates for a dog park, and all for very different reasons. In all my years I have seen no GSD's that were "good" with the dog parks, for a wide variety of reasons. I have seen some, like Bud, who enjoyed some free play and others like Lex who really did not thrive there but none that did really well long term in all situations.

All that said, if you must do the social scene then my advice is to know your dog and stay on your toes.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> I'd be curious to see the difference a correction from a strange dog has on a puppy, compared to one from it's own home.
> And as far as dog parks go. I have no problem with them. Until the dog _*expert*_ shows up and wants to run the show. Most of those experts like to tell everyone what to do with their dogs or how to raise them. _*They can be overbearing and a little too confident*_.
> My dog, my rules.


And I definitely don't want to be _*that*_ guy.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> I do not want to interact with dog park people, either.


LOL! Brings to mind the trailer park boys series on Netflix (I think?).

Until she moved recently, I met and used to chat daily with one of the most knowledgeable and experienced trainers I've ever had the pleasure to meet at the dog park! She ran a boarding and training facility for 35 yrs, training and certifying LEOs and their K9s, titled many dogs in IPO, as well as teaching all levels of obedience, and even some PPD work. Never had a question about anything relating to dog training that she didn't have an immediate, knowledgeable, and practical answer for. And wow, did she have some great stories to tell!

Interestingly enough she had a gorgeous female Dobe, that was usually muzzled at the dog park and when out on walks. Her dog was a sweetheart, but very protective of her and its own personal space. And in typical Dobe fashion, was pretty vocal in letting other dogs know, which of course freaked some people out...

After 5 calls to AC about an uncontrollably aggressive Doberman at the dog park in 2 months, she voluntarily muzzled her dog. Though no dog or people injuries were involved, and no report ever filed. But all the AC officers and several regular LEOs (they handle dog related calls after hours) knew both her and her dog by name, and she them!

This lady had another dog as well, an old hound dog of some sort. This dog would play, briefly, with her Dobe at times, but would hardly interact with most other dogs. 

She was, however, allowed to practice unfettered, inter dog aggression and corrections (quoting from memory here, hopefully I got that right!). And no doubt, that is why my poor puppy us so maladjusted!

On a nearly daily basis, this old hound dog would bellow out a loud bark and put Nyx down by the neck, because as puppies are want to do Nyx would get in her face licking non-stop while bouncing around. 

It almost became a ritual with them. Nyx would see them, run as fast as she could to greet them, then the bark and the pin, then Nyx would follow them for a minute prancing, before running off to do other things...

Anyway, fast forward a few months and the hound stopped barking at and pinning Nyx, and Nyx stopped her incessant face licking and pestering, but she never stopped being happy to see them and greeting both dogs. And Nyx became one of the few dogs that both of the lady's dogs would play with on occassion. And even the Dobe, who did not like dogs getting next to her, would simply look, notice it was Nyx, and go about her business. Odd huh?

What I always find interesting in threads about dog parks, is the people who never go proclaim most loudly what "they" should be, or what "they" were created for. IMHO, the image of a bunch of well adjusted, happy go lucky, always socially correct dogs only exists in one's imagination! Anytime you have a bunch of dogs running around off-leash together in an in closed space there WILL be issues! 

Perhaps, as many have suggested, my bias keeps me from seeing just how uncontrollably aggressive my dog really is! To that, I'll just leave you with this image...this little guy lived with us for 5 months or so. When I brought him home, Nyx was frantic about getting between the little dog and any of her humans! My solution? I threw them both out in the backyard and ignored them for an hour or so to get to know each other. Not a good solution with an aggressive dog, but with Nyx not a problem!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tc68 said:


> Sorry if I'm making you so defensive. Not my intention...sincerely. I was just trying to help. And from the story you told, it seemed like you needed a different POV. And I'm sure that you're more of an experienced dog owner than I. Next time you post a new thread, I'll read but won't comment. I certainly don't need that attitude directed at me. Cheers.


Sorry! I didn't mean to sound harsh or defensive! What happens a lot in these threads though, is that even though you're quoting one person, you're really responding to several, or even speaking in the general case. It's not always easy to make that clear in writing, but I truly didn't mean to offend you! And I hope you'll feel free to comment always!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Perhaps, as many have suggested, my bias keeps me from seeing just how uncontrollably aggressive my dog really is! To that, I'll just leave you with this image...this little guy lived with us for 5 months or so. When I brought him home, Nyx was frantic about getting between the little dog and any of her humans! My solution? I threw them both out in the backyard and ignored them for an hour or so to get to know each other. Not a good solution with an aggressive dog, but with Nyx not a problem!


I may have missed something skimming through posts Tim, but I wouldn't say anything negative about Nyx and I don't term aggressive as a negative either. What I'd say is that as soon as you go from 2 dogs to 3, the interactions are generally always going to change, thats multiplied by how ever many dogs are basically running free in the dog park. If she does hurt that puppy you let climb on her in a long down, that's your fault. You created the situation.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

“Anytime you have a bunch of dogs running around off-leash together in an in closed space there WILL be issues!”

I think that is exactly the point. Guaranteed issues. Many posters, including me, therefore want to avoid the risk of being part of the next issue.

Aggressive is a continuum, not yes or no. For argument’s sake, say 0-10. By your own report your dog is not at 0. Just because she’s not a 10 doesn’t mean there’s 0 risk she’ll traumatize a pup she decides to ‘correct’. You sound willing to take that risk, and that’s your choice. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GypsyGhost said:


> I agree that social dogs can make life easier, especially in a boarding situation. I view that as more structured play, though, where the temperament of each of the dogs are known and understood. Two of my dogs do fine in these types of situations. They did not learn to be social with other dogs from going to a dog park, though. Or from being “schooled” by dogs that were unknown to them.


yes, my intention is to be nothing like a dog park. I take a history on all new dogs and then consider that, plus whatever breed traits may apply, plus what I observe the dog doing.

If they seem to be a low risk candidate based on those factors, I try them with a dog I choose-- hopefully a very neutral one, and see what I see then. And I just keep gathering info and playing match maker between dogs. 

I have some groups which are seniors or dog neutral and they really don't want to play together but they do enjoy going for walks and sniffing and peeing on stuff together. And I have some younger dogs who can and will go in with this group and be respectful of their elders.

I have a social outcast group who really can't socialize with just anybody but they all do well together-- 3 or 4 of them--too persnickety to meet new dogs but they do like each other and are similar sized, all from different homes and with somewhat different "issues" but they are good for each other.

Some younger, wilder ones who only go with each other because the above 2 groups don't want any part of that.

I had a for lack of a better word dominant large female the other day and threw her in with my boy to get a read on her because I know he is VERY unlikely to have an issue with a female like that and I just wanted to see what she would do and they actually had a great time. He might be the only dog she ever plays with here, though.

I do this because it gets them more time out, more exercise, and a little more mental stimulation to break up the monotony of boarding. 

Riskier breeds with no social history I often wouldn't even try. Riskier breeds with risky social history I definitely won't let have access to other dogs. And I can match based on size, energy level, age, etc., for compatibility.

I have had several dogs really come out of their shell and begin to have fun who were previously quite intimidated. Some because of being trounced on by dog park dogs. One had lived with another dog who was a bully had beat him up for years and if another dog showed any interest in him he would just shut right down. Some who are young and just don't know and are timid. As they grow up and have some good experiences they lose the reservation. 

I have 2 dogs who will fight over toys, one has no contact with other dogs and the other is part of the misfits group, I know him really well and he does not guard things to his "friends". 

I've had dogs come from other boarding scenarios where they are just all in a big poorly supervised group all the time with no rest, and I don't think I've had one yet from one of those histories without social issues. Lots of time they come in swinging "get them before they get me", or they are compulsive humpers. I had one who was an aggressive, scary humper-- just not cool, bad energy, would have started a nasty fight with the wrong dog, scruff up, body checking, humping with nasty intent, and the owners were flabbergasted that I did not agree that their dog was perfectly social. Some of those type environments I suspect are more like dog parks.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> LOL! Brings to mind the trailer park boys series on Netflix (I think?).
> 
> Until she moved recently, I met and used to chat daily with one of the most knowledgeable and experienced trainers I've ever had the pleasure to meet at the dog park! She ran a boarding and training facility for 35 yrs, training and certifying LEOs and their K9s, titled many dogs in IPO, as well as teaching all levels of obedience, and even some PPD work. Never had a question about anything relating to dog training that she didn't have an immediate, knowledgeable, and practical answer for. And wow, did she have some great stories to tell!
> 
> ...


Someone who continued to bring an "uncontrollably aggressive" doberman to a dog park until AC was called 5 times and then continued to bring it in a muzzle, is not someone I would ever want to take dog training advice from


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What an interesting turn this thread has taken. I by no means have dogs so that I can meet other people. The thought never occurred to me to do so nor does dog ownership appeal to me for that reason. On the other hand, I do not have a problem with meeting new people, especially like minded people, such as dog lovers. I have met a lot of really fantastic people via my dogs, some in a dog park, some on the trails, some in Lowes, and a variety of other places. I would not have had opportunity to meet some of these people if it weren't for my dogs. I guess it depends on the type of person you are, some may be more content with close family and a few friends, others are more open to exploring new experiences and possible friendships with others with various shades of gray in between.


Sure, but they're probably not going to be the folks that hurry their dogs out of the car and into the park so they can ignore them for an hour while they stand in the corner with their Starbucks talking. And if we ever go for a hike Mawl, put the cell phone away. I'm opinionated as heck about that too.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> LOL! Brings to mind the trailer park boys series on Netflix (I think?).
> 
> Until she moved recently, I met and used to chat daily with one of the most knowledgeable and experienced trainers I've ever had the pleasure to meet at the dog park! She ran a boarding and training facility for 35 yrs, training and certifying LEOs and their K9s, titled many dogs in IPO, as well as teaching all levels of obedience, and even some PPD work. Never had a question about anything relating to dog training that she didn't have an immediate, knowledgeable, and practical answer for. And wow, did she have some great stories to tell!
> 
> ...


Tim, I don’t go to dog parks because I don’t like unpredictable dogs and people. It’s not that I object to dogs interacting. Nearly every situation you describe with your dog and other dogs, aside from this “puppy schooling” incident which gave you the blues, is a dog with an owner who seems to really understand their own dog, as well as other dogs in general. That is not something I find to be true near me, hence why I do not frequent dog parks. The dog parks in my area are not much larger than my own backyard, and I frequently observe all of the owners gathered together around the picnic tables set up within the dog area, chatting or looking at their phones. I very rarely see any of the owners interacting with their own dogs, or paying any mind at all to what is happening with other dogs around them. THAT is what I have no interest in. THOSE are the people I have no interest in interacting with. 

Two of my current dogs have enjoyed running free with dogs we know well, owned by people who understand dogs. My other dog would not be a candidate for situations like that, so he sits them out. You are equating my desire to keep my dogs out of situations where no one has any control over their own dogs with my wanting my dogs to never interact appropriately with other dogs. It happens infrequently, as I find my time is better spent training and engaging with them than letting them run loose in a group of dogs. And, as they get older, they spend their time following me around waiting to do something with me instead of playing with other dogs, anyway. But I never want my dogs to think every strange dog we pass has value, or is a potential playmate. If I am remembering correctly, didn’t Nyx go through a period of reactivity? I apologize if I am thinking of someone else. IME, giving value to strangers and every dog they see works against you at some point, and it’s simply not something I want to deal with. My dogs are all able to pass other dogs and people on the street (even the one who IS reactive and fearful), but I see no need for actual social interaction with any of them. They get all the interaction they need with me, my other dogs, people we know very well and dogs we know very well. 

I don’t know that I would have let a small dog and one of my GSDs out in the yard to work things out because a lot can happen even in play with no supervision, but I guess you did remove yourself from the situation, which probably helped since Nyx was resource guarding humans. And I don’t know why you keep insisting everyone here thinks your dog is some aggressive monster. Even ignoring what you have said was a poor choice of words on your part with calling her actions “aggressive”, I think people are just trying to politely suggest that hormones play a part in dog interaction, and since Nyx is intact and now an adult, you may see some changes in her that may require you to come up with a different plan of action. I know my girl, who is completely stable and not aggressive toward other dogs, went through a phase after her third and fourth heat cycles where she felt she needed to police other dogs a bit more. It was out of character for her, and I took note. I was more careful with her when she was around other bitches, simply because she was still intact, she was still young, and she was clearly feeling out what she could get away with at the time.

It’s very clear you enjoy the dog park and have no intention of stopping your trips to them. And that’s fine for you. I hope nothing ever happens. The advice people have given on this thread is valuable, though, and hopefully others reading it who may find themselves in a similar situation to yours can find value in the sharing of these experiences and opinions.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Beau's Mom said:


> “Anytime you have a bunch of dogs running around off-leash together in an in closed space there WILL be issues!”
> 
> I think that is exactly the point. Guaranteed issues. Many posters, including me, therefore want to avoid the risk of being part of the next issue.
> 
> Aggressive is a continuum, not yes or no. For argument’s sake, say 0-10. By your own report your dog is not at 0. Just because she’s not a 10 doesn’t mean there’s 0 risk she’ll traumatize a pup she decides to ‘correct’. You sound willing to take that risk, and that’s your choice. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one.


This is really a great point! Nyx is far from a zero on the aggressive continuum that's for sure! And I suppose there's always some risk, although I haven't personally seen it happen, that a puppy could be traumatized by a correction from another dog. 

But I guess it boils down to the mental image you have of said correction, that sort of dictates how you think and feel about it. I did see a dog attack a puppy a week or so back, grabbed it by the neck and was violently shaking it! That, in my mind, was unfettered inter dog aggression, and that dog was removed from the park and hasn't been back. 

Nyx has never bitten a puppy, nor in any way shape or form hurt one...so there is that! The only scuffles she's ever been in were in response to aggression from other dogs, she has never initiated a fight with any dog ever!

As she's gotten older I have noticed that she's more inclined to stand her ground with other adult dogs that are being aggressive toward her (as a puppy she'd just leave). Fortunately it's easy to call her away from these situations (or as Steve put it, show off her obedience LOL!).

But since Nyx is not the only older dog schooling this guys puppy, is it me or him that's assuming the risk? Should he have the right to bring his little puppy to a dog park and then dictate the behavior of everyone else's dog? As I mentioned he is continually fending dogs away from his poor puppy, and complaining to these dog's owners! 

Or, should he perhaps keep his dog safely away from other dogs who yes, perish the thought, might correct it's annoying puppy behavior? 

This particular dog park does have a small dog area...

I realize by starting this thread I've opened myself up for all sorts of opinions, and it's all good! It does make for some interesting conversation, and I would expect nothing less. 

I just hope most people reading this will actually visit a dog park before reaching a conclusion! It definitely is a different dynamic! Not quite the hotbed of danger many people talk about in most cases, but dog fights do happen! I break up several each week...but as I've mentioned before, in 16 months I have not seen a single dog get injured...so there's that!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Sure, but they're probably not going to be the folks that hurry their dogs out of the car and into the park so they can ignore them for an hour while they stand in the corner with their Starbucks talking. And if we ever go for a hike Mawl, put the cell phone away. I'm opinionated as heck about that too.


Most of the folks I see are actually being hurried/drug by their dogs Steve. And often losing their Starbucks in the process...unfortunately they usually retain their cell phones!

But this was actually an interesting observation pointed out by that trainer friend I mentioned..."you can tell an awful lot about a dog and it's owner by how they navigate from the parking lot to the park", she'd say!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Sure, but they're probably not going to be the folks that hurry their dogs out of the car and into the park so they can ignore them for an hour while they stand in the corner with their Starbucks talking. And if we ever go for a hike Mawl, put the cell phone away. I'm opinionated as heck about that too.


You mean I can't take pictures?!? :surprise:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Most of the folks I see are actually being hurried/drug by their dogs Steve. *And often losing their Starbucks in the process...*unfortunately they usually retain their cell phones!
> 
> But this was actually an interesting observation pointed out by that trainer friend I mentioned..."you can tell an awful lot about a dog and it's owner by how they navigate from the parking lot to the park", she'd say!


Haha! Reminds me of the time I dropped my car off for inspection. I had an open cup of coffee and two of my dogs with me. As I was leaving to take the dogs for a walk while they inspected the car, I heard the mechanics chuckling. What? They were laughing because I had two grown GSDs on lead and an open cup of coffee and was making the whole thing look like a cakewalk while not spilling a drop.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don't do dog parks because I don’t believe my dogs need to interact with strange dogs.


I am going to go off topic here for a moment as this made me think of a study I recently read. A friend had a health problem with her dog and felt it could have had roots in stress. So I did a little research on the topic and found a study that found that dogs that were the least stressed were dogs that were given maximal off leash time in conjunction with the ability to meet other unknown dogs. 

I can easily understand how being off leash can reduce stress but can only speculate as to meeting unknown dogs. My speculation is that when they get to meet dogs and have good experiences or the other dog avoids, it can create a disposition that meeting other dogs is a non issue. That is just my take on it and is no reflection on the study which did not go into the details of how this reduced stress.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Sure, but they're probably not going to be the folks that hurry their dogs out of the car and into the park so they can ignore them for an hour while they stand in the corner with their Starbucks talking. And if we ever *go for a hike *Mawl, put the cell phone away. I'm opinionated as heck about that too.


If your hands are free to hold a cell phone then you are on a walk, not a hike.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am going to go off topic here for a moment as this made me think of a study I recently read. A friend had a health problem with her dog and felt it could have had roots in stress. So I did a little research on the topic and found a study that found that dogs that were the least stressed were dogs that were given maximal off leash time in conjunction with the ability to meet other unknown dogs.
> 
> I can easily understand how being off leash can reduce stress but can only speculate as to meeting unknown dogs. My speculation is that when they get to meet dogs and have good experiences or the other dog avoids, it can create a disposition that meeting other dogs is a non issue. That is just my take on it and is no reflection on the study which did not go into the details of how this reduced stress.


Interesting...got a link? Don't spend any time looking if it was too far in the past, just seemed interesting...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> Interesting...got a link? Don't spend any time looking if it was too far in the past, just seemed interesting...


I would have to look for it but if I run across it again I will link it to you.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel said:


> If your hands are free to hold a cell phone then you are on a walk, not a hike.



Cell phones don't belong on either a walk or a hike. 


When I negotiated my contract, I was to be available on call 24/7, it was specifically stated that as per my voice mail calls would not be answered while I was out with the dogs and urgent calls needed to be redirected to the call center. The call center was aware and emergencies were sent to my assistant.

Time with the dogs is dedicated to them alone. They get little enough time as it is and I will not allow intrusions. For safety reasons I carry my phone when hiking and it stays in my pack. There is no service anyway, but the GPS still works. 


IMHO they should be banned from dog parks.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Do you use Backcountry GPS or another app for when service is not available?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Do you use Backcountry GPS or another app for when service is not available?


Neither. I am not very tech savy but the gps continues to function even witout service. I dont think its precise but its darn close. I have also had a friend locate it and it put her almost dead on where I was.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am going to go off topic here for a moment as this made me think of a study I recently read. A friend had a health problem with her dog and felt it could have had roots in stress. So I did a little research on the topic and found a study that found that dogs that were the least stressed were dogs that were given maximal off leash time in conjunction with the ability to meet other unknown dogs.
> 
> I can easily understand how being off leash can reduce stress but can only speculate as to meeting unknown dogs. My speculation is that when they get to meet dogs and have good experiences or the other dog avoids, it can create a disposition that meeting other dogs is a non issue. That is just my take on it and is no reflection on the study which did not go into the details of how this reduced stress.


There is no doubt that dogs running loose together can be a stress reliever, with the right dogs and right environment. I let Boru out for a few hours everyday with my female and it is beneficial for both of them. Two dogs running and playing together is excellent conditioning as well. We do this in our patrol schools where we muzzle the dogs and let them run together and play for stress relief. The patrol school can be very stressful for a young dog. Not all dogs do well wth this though, for some dogs it is actually more stressful. Some dogs simply will not get along and will want to fight or assert themselves. I remember doing this years ago with Boomer in his patrol school. Three dogs were running and playing and he changed the whole dynamic. The result was a brawl with him fighting with the other three dogs at once. He was not allowed to run loose with the other dogs again. 

While socializing with the appropriate dogs is good for many dogs it is not good for every dog. For some dogs, a dog park will be a stressful place. For some dogs being put together with bigger dogs, older dogs, younger dogs, etc will be very stressful. Overall, dogs need to be physically and mentally stimulated. This does not have to happen at a dog park, owners can easily do this and should. 

I have no issue getting up in front of a crowd and speaking, I enjoy public speaking. Many people would be very stressed if they had to stand up in front of a crowd and speak. We all have different personalities and temperaments, just like our dogs. What stresses one person out may not bother another person at all. 

The point is that letting dogs play together can be a stress reliever and healthy, done properly and controlled. It is not for every dog and dogs should not be forced into situations with strange dogs. Just like we have shy, reserved people there are also shy / timid dogs that would become more stressed. I do not believe that dog parks are healthy, relaxing places for all dogs as some owners would like to believe.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> There is no doubt that dogs running loose together can be a stress reliever, with the right dogs and right environment. I let Boru out for a few hours everyday with my female and it is beneficial for both of them. Two dogs running and playing together is excellent conditioning as well. We do this in our patrol schools where we muzzle the dogs and let them run together and play for stress relief. The patrol school can be very stressful for a young dog. Not all dogs do well wth this though, for some dogs it is actually more stressful. Some dogs simply will not get along and will want to fight or assert themselves. I remember doing this years ago with Boomer in his patrol school. Three dogs were running and playing and he changed the whole dynamic. The result was a brawl with him fighting with the other three dogs at once. He was not allowed to run loose with the other dogs again.
> 
> While socializing with the appropriate dogs is good for many dogs it is not good for every dog. For some dogs, a dog park will be a stressful place. For some dogs being put together with bigger dogs, older dogs, younger dogs, etc will be very stressful. Overall, dogs need to be physically and mentally stimulated. This does not have to happen at a dog park, owners can easily do this and should.
> 
> ...


Jim, do you find a higher degree of dog aggression in these types of dogs?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Jim, do you find a higher degree of dog aggression in these types of dogs?


No, actually less dog aggression. Boomer was dog aggressive which he learned from an older female that I had. He was fine loose on the field with other dogs when he was focused on me. He was vey much under control and loose dogs could walk right up to him and he was very controlled. I had zero tolerance for dog aggression with him. He would never have even approached the other dogs if I hadn't encouraged him to go, as I was told to do. Once he was released one of the other dogs made eye contact and stared him down. It was on after that, and Boomer was more than happy and capable to roll around with all three dogs. 

The dogs we have in the unit are all pretty neutral and non dog aggressive. Some will not seek other dogs out, but will not submit if challenged. That is pretty universal. Boru is actually very dog friendly and likes other dogs. He does not want to fight with other dogs and will try to avoid a confrontation if possible. He would probably be fine at a dog park as long as only dogs were there and no people were present.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> He would probably be fine at a dog park as long as only dogs were there and no people were present.


I think dog parks can be a very benign place if no people were present. I've seen that once an incident takes place and the owners start running towards the dogs and yelling it makes the incident worse because the dogs think "wow, my pack is joining me in the fight, right on." Incidents are prevented best when a third party, not the dog's owner steps in, a role which I've taken many times at the park. That's the reason I always wear long pants to the park even in the middle of summer, I don't want to wade into a scrum of dogs wearing shorts. Having trained in schutzhund fields, I find that all the dogs I've run into in the dog parks are really mild-mannered pets that are easy to intimidate into backing off when you establish your presence. And the owners are also mainly friendly, mild-mannered, easy going people because a control oriented person (and dog) just would not do well in the free wheeling environment of a dog park.

Most dogs are non-dog aggressive when they're in neutral territory, they are off-leash, they are not with their owner, they are not with their packmates, they have room to avoid or run, no females in the area are in heat, and they are not young adults with high ambition trying to establish their rank.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Shepdad said:


> I think dog parks can be a very benign place if no people were present. I've seen that once an incident takes place and the owners start running towards the dogs and yelling it makes the incident worse because the dogs think "wow, my pack is joining me in the fight, right on." Incidents are prevented best when a third party, not the dog's owner steps in, a role which I've taken many times at the park. That's the reason I always wear long pants to the park even in the middle of summer, I don't want to wade into a scrum of dogs wearing shorts. Having trained in schutzhund fields, I find that all the dogs I've run into in the dog parks are really mild-mannered pets that are easy to intimidate into backing off when you establish your presence. And the owners are also mainly friendly, mild-mannered, easy going people because a control oriented person (and dog) just would not do well in the free wheeling environment of a dog park.
> 
> Most dogs are non-dog aggressive when they're in neutral territory, they are off-leash, they are not with their owner, they are not with their packmates, they have room to avoid or run, no females in the area are in heat, and they are not young adults with high ambition trying to establish their rank.


This is very true. 

Breaking up dog fights is best done with at least two people that are not afraid of getting bit. As getting bit is a definite possibility. I do agree that frantic dog owners jumping in often make the situation worse and the dogs more aggressive. 

Boru has no dog aggression but plenty of people aggression. He is not the dog you bring to the family picnic or the dog park. He would ignore all the other dogs and go straight to the first person he saw.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> No, actually less dog aggression. Boomer was dog aggressive which he learned from an older female that I had. He was fine loose on the field with other dogs when he was focused on me. He was vey much under control and loose dogs could walk right up to him and he was very controlled. I had zero tolerance for dog aggression with him. He would never have even approached the other dogs if I hadn't encouraged him to go, as I was told to do. Once he was released one of the other dogs made eye contact and stared him down. It was on after that, and Boomer was more than happy and capable to roll around with all three dogs.
> 
> The dogs we have in the unit are all pretty neutral and non dog aggressive. Some will not seek other dogs out, but will not submit if challenged. That is pretty universal. Boru is actually very dog friendly and likes other dogs. He does not want to fight with other dogs and will try to avoid a confrontation if possible. He would probably be fine at a dog park as long as only dogs were there and no people were present.


Are most of the dogs German Shepherds or a variety of GSDs, Dutchies, Mals and mixes of those? Would you consider most LE dogs as having social aggression (aggressive to those outside of their pack)?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shepdad said:


> I think dog parks can be a very benign place if no people were present. I've seen that once an incident takes place and the owners start running towards the dogs and yelling it makes the incident worse because the dogs think "wow, my pack is joining me in the fight, right on." Incidents are prevented best when a third party, not the dog's owner steps in, a role which I've taken many times at the park. That's the reason I always wear long pants to the park even in the middle of summer, I don't want to wade into a scrum of dogs wearing shorts. Having trained in schutzhund fields, I find that all the dogs I've run into in the dog parks are really mild-mannered pets that are easy to intimidate into backing off when you establish your presence. And the owners are also mainly friendly, mild-mannered, easy going people because a control oriented person (and dog) just would not do well in the free wheeling environment of a dog park.
> 
> Most dogs are non-dog aggressive when they're in neutral territory, they are off-leash, they are not with their owner, they are not with their packmates, they have room to avoid or run, no females in the area are in heat, and they are not young adults with high ambition trying to establish their rank.


So I found out the hard way that both Bud and Sabs would respond violently if I was in any way involved. Me wading into a scuffle almost guaranteed that both humans and dogs would get hurt. 
Sabi got into a dust up with a young bitch that likely would have resolved itself with some slobber and loose fur, except that a gentleman standing near kicked at Sabi which made me go in to rescue her. Another well meaning observer grabbed me to, I guess, protect me and Sabi lost her marbles. It took a split second for a wrestling match to turn violent and it was over me not the other dog, it simply became expedient for Sabi to be done with the other dog quickly. Bud did the same thing with a young punk dog. I was walking toward them and Bud had already basically obeyed and backing off. Other owner yelled and pushed me back and Bud levelled the other dog and turned on the human. Both times I was able to stop anything serious and both times I suspect the male humans were simply concerned with my safety. 

Owners should not get involved and men should not assume that women can't handle their dogs:wink2:


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are most of the dogs German Shepherds or a variety of GSDs, Dutchies, Mals and mixes of those? Would you consider most LE dogs as having social aggression (aggressive to those outside of their pack)?


The dogs we have are GSD's, GSD X Mali mix, Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. Some are very social, some are not as social, some are a little anti social with strangers. All of the dogs I test and select have a high level of fight drive, high prey drive, some defense but not over the top, social aggression is there but more of a learned trait. Put a dog in real fight and a real apprehension and they learn pretty quickly who they can trust and who they should be wary of. They can get a little jaded over time. 

I prefer social dogs, but Lassie would be a terrible police dog. I look for dogs that are strong and stable, able to be in and around a crowd of people and be in control. Social enough to work along a group of Police Officers and not tag the wrong person. I like very high drive dogs, that includes prey, hunt, toy and fight drive.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> The dogs we have are GSD's, GSD X Mali mix, Malinois and Dutch Shepherds. Some are very social, some are not as social, some are a little anti social with strangers. All of the dogs I test and select have a high level of fight drive, high prey drive, some defense but not over the top, social aggression is there but more of a learned trait. Put a dog in real fight and a real apprehension and they learn pretty quickly who they can trust and who they should be wary of. They can get a little jaded over time.
> 
> I prefer social dogs, but Lassie would be a terrible police dog. I look for dogs that are strong and stable, able to be in and around a crowd of people and be in control. Social enough to work along a group of Police Officers and not tag the wrong person. I like very high drive dogs, that includes prey, hunt, toy and fight drive.


How do you test for fight drive?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How do you test for fight drive?


Part of our testing and selection process tests and evaluates the "civil" nature of the dog. It is pretty easy to see and recognize the dogs that "have it" and the dogs that don't. Some have it more than others and with experience it is pretty easy to recognize. Boru for example is low defense but high fight drive. He is also high prey, hunt and toy drive. He likes to fight and brings it in a very serious and determined way.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Socially savvy is a huge bonus for me in a pup/dog. Because I hike a lot, it's much easier if the pup can be neutral to strange dogs, and know to avoid unfriendly ones, and greet friendly ones without a problem. I prefer neutrality, but sometimes a la-bro-doodley comes barrelling up to us "just friendly" and I'd vastly prefer she knows that dog isn't a threat vs. having to call dog in and heel her or down her until the dog is out of the way. Eh, I do that anyway for my less friendly girl (nothing wrong with her she just really doesn't care to make dog friends), but it just makes life a bit more relaxed in this crazy dog "friends" -everywhere world we live in these days.
> *
> I selected a pup on the more social end of the breeding scale for this reason. Just to make my life easier. She's still got all it takes for sport and work, so why not get a social dog. She is becoming more neutral as she matures, which is what I like to see in a working dog. But I want a pup to be almost obnoxiously social, particularly in my breed. (ideally). I've seen enough pups now to know that less social pups tend to mature with some nerve issues. (again generalizing*)
> 
> ...


I've come to this "in general" conclusion as well and will be looking for the same social traits in my future pup. People mentioned concerns about strength of bond with social dogs in a previous thread, but we are not seeing this problem with my wife's pup who is a pretty social guy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> I've come to this "in general" conclusion as well and will be looking for the same social traits in my future pup. People mentioned concerns about strength of bond with social dogs in a previous thread, but we are not seeing this problem with my wife's pup who is a pretty social guy.


Not sure what the other thread said, but I had two very social dogs and I don't believe either one of those dogs were capable of forming a bond.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not sure what the other thread said, but I had two very social dogs and I don't believe either one of those dogs were capable of forming a bond.


I'm not sure I understand? 

All dogs will form a bond. It may be very strong with it's handler or not so strong. IME, this has to do with interaction and bonding with the handler. I've had dogs that have strong bonds with me, some naturally some with extensive interaction. I've seen dogs with a bond lose it with their handler. I've also seen dogs that have little bond with their handler. In that case it is due to the handler not providing what the dog really wants or needs. 

I think if a handler becomes the most exciting, fun thing a dog has then the bond is inevitable. It takes patience at times to achieve this.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> I'm not sure I understand?
> 
> All dogs will form a bond. It may be very strong with it's handler or not so strong. IME, this has to do with interaction and bonding with the handler. I've had dogs that have strong bonds with me, some naturally some with extensive interaction. I've seen dogs with a bond lose it with their handler. I've also seen dogs that have little bond with their handler. In that case it is due to the handler not providing what the dog really wants or needs.
> 
> I think if a handler becomes the most exciting, fun thing a dog has then the bond is inevitable. It takes patience at times to achieve this.


It was the dogs, they were litter mates, so it definitely was genetic. The only thing that interested them was the next stranger and the next stranger and the one after that. They made Golden Retrievers look like aloof killing machines. 

I will agree that I did not provide them what they wanted which was gushed over every single second in between their fawning over the next stranger and the next and the next......

They just wanted doted on 24/7 and it did not matter who the person was doling it out.

Another odd thing about them was that they had next to no drive of any kind and were low energy, the female worse than the male. People always thought they were very old dogs when they were just a year old, especially her. The look of eagles was not for their eyes.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

That sounds more like insecure, a little needy. Chaos can be a little like that, but he's managed to bond pretty nice with my wife.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I've come to this "in general" conclusion as well and will be looking for the same social traits in my future pup. People mentioned concerns about strength of bond with social dogs in a previous thread, but we are not seeing this problem with my wife's pup who is a pretty social guy.


The best dogs I've owned were social butterflies when they were young.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> That sounds more like insecure, a little needy. Chaos can be a little like that, but he's managed to bond pretty nice with my wife.


They were slug like, not nervous, not needy, non reactive, inert. There was no semblance of appeasement in their actions. The only time they showed any enthusiasm was when they were going to force people to give them attention. They did not show any recognition of familiar people. Everybody was one and the same to them, all got the same treatment. Well.. maybe they did show some favoritism to strangers.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I


MineAreWorkingline said:


> They were slug like, not nervous, not needy, non reactive, inert. There was no semblance of appeasement in their actions. The only time they showed any enthusiasm was when they were going to force people to give them attention. They did not show any recognition of familiar people. Everybody was one and the same to them, all got the same treatment. Well.. maybe they did show some favoritism to strangers.


I'd have trouble bonding with a dog like that too I think > Sounds like really good genetics...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I
> 
> I'd have trouble bonding with a dog like that too I think > Sounds like really good genetics...


The breeder said they were social, or should I say warned? I guess everybody has their own idea on what social means.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The breeder said they were social, or should I say warned? I guess everybody has their own idea on what social means.


:rofl:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's actually funny to me, but THE most civil dog I've ever known WAS a Golden Retriever! I get how hard that is to explain or understand. But honestly I've been around GSDs most of my life. And though I've never owned a Mal, I have had GSDs, Dobies, Rotties, Blue Heelers, Malamutes, Huskies, and unmentionable other breeds or mixes thereof (family dogs, not mine personally), and I've been around Mals plenty too. 

But this one Golden was a freaking holy terror! Born dead, she was revived via mouth to mouth, and nursed along, and because of that kept by her breeder/owner who were neighbor's of mine.

I have never ever seen her equivalent in terms of civil aggression and fight drive...she was a scary dog (and I mean that in a good way!). 

Anyway, just an aside...


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Leaving the world of dogs for a moment helped me to think more clearly about this...
( I know you are a parent, Tim! )

So imagine you are at the playground and your kid is having fun. A little kid runs over and squeals, "Let's play Tag! Right now!", jumps on him and gives him a big hug. Your kid scowls and pushes him away, saying, "Not now! Hey, get off me!" The little kid stumbles, maybe falls. The little kid's mom comes rushing over with a concerned look. Her attitude is: your kid is bigger and should mind his manners around my little kid! Is my precious darling hurt?

So this 'correction' by your kid, if given by their big brother or sister or friend, is perfectly acceptable to the mom. But given by an unknown kid at the playground, she freaks out. Yes, parents like these are annoying and there a lot of them - instead of telling their kid not to annoy other kids, they blame others. Let me tell you, there are a LOT of parents like that out there (who can only see one side). These are the same parents whose kids cut to the front of the line, and the parents just roll their eyes. Grrr.

so how to handle it?

I would say that, allowing your bigger kid to 'correct' these little kids' behavior is not acceptable in the human world. (For instance, you usually would not allow your bigger kid to push the little kid out of line and say, "Wait Your Turn! Get in Line at the End!") Having the parents handle it is considered more acceptable - parent A can say to parent B, 'We have been waiting in line a long time. I would appreciate it if you have your kid wait for their turn.'

So my preference (since we are in a human + dog scenario at dogpark, not dogs only) would be that YOU handle it, you keep Nyx out of it, you handle it with other owner? When Nyx gets annoyed or lets out a growl, I would call her to me and make some distance between her and the pup...?

Anyway that is my small thought even though we are not experienced with dogparks! 
(I have, however, been through 18 years of parenting


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's actually funny to me, but THE most civil dog I've ever known WAS a Golden Retriever! I get how hard that is to explain or understand. But honestly I've been around GSDs most of my life. And though I've never owned a Mal, I have had GSDs, Dobies, Rotties, Blue Heelers, Malamutes, Huskies, and unmentionable other breeds or mixes thereof (family dogs, not mine personally), and I've been around Mals plenty too.
> 
> But this one Golden was a freaking holy terror! Born dead, she was revived via mouth to mouth, and nursed along, and because of that kept by her breeder/owner who were neighbor's of mine.
> 
> ...


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> The best dogs I've owned were social butterflies when they were young.


I really enjoy having social dogs. That trait definitely does not have to preclude bonding strongly with an owner, or having sufficient drive. Halo was friendly with our team dogs, but tended more towards being dog neutral in general. In the flyball ring she didn't care about anything but doing her job. She never went to say hi to other dogs or people, even those she knew and liked. She'd been chased in the runback area, she'd been body slammed a couple of times by other dogs, and she never came off her tug. She was one of our team's "bombproof" dogs, we'd use her in training with green dogs because she wasn't going to interfere with them and didn't care if they interfered with her. Out of the ring, she was very friendly with people, she would suck up to anyone for a treat and was sweet and kissy with guests to our house. 

Cava is VERY social, both with people and dogs. I think wanting to meet other dogs will be our biggest challenge to overcome as we train, but she's also still young and that may become less important to her as she matures. Right now we're just doing restrained recalls, working with a variety of different team dogs and having different people restrain her. Side by side recalls are going very well, she's driving hard to me for her tug. Opposite direction recalls, where the dogs are running towards and past each other is a bigger challenge. We start out with a lot of distance between the dogs and will have a gate barrier or human blockers as necessary at first, then we start to fade those out and reduce the distance between the dogs, which simulates a passing scenario. 

What I was hoping to get with Cava, (and so far she is turning out to be exactly that), is a friendly, social dog out of the ring, who can turn it on in the ring. A dog with plenty of drive, a great off switch and excellent engagement. These are traits that her dam has, as well as being very fast and athletic. If she becomes more neutral to dogs and/or people with time, that's fine. If she stays a social butterfly, that's fine too, as long as her work ethic and drive for the sport remains, which I fully expect based on what I've seen from her so far. Because so much of the training in my sport depends on being able to hand her off to anyone, known to her or not, it's very important to have a dog that is not nervous around unknown people or weird about being touched by them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I tend to look at social being related to confident. I imagine you can go a lot more in depth and sight examples of this or that contradicting that opinion, but I like looking at it that way.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It makes senses to me, Steve. Halo certainly did not lack confidence! One of the orthopedic specialists that we saw commented on it. She was loose and relaxed while he examined her, manipulating her body in a variety of different ways. She clearly liked him and was very comfortable being handled by him. He said she was the easiest dog in the world to examine (hyperbole, but he did say exactly that) and that a less confident dog tends to tense up and freeze, making a physical examination more difficult.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I do not equate dogs that have little use for strangers as one lacking in drive or confidence. Being aloof or having social aggression are not traits tied to a lack of nerve, confidence or drive. That is simply not true.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I do not equate dogs that have little use for strangers as one lacking in drive or confidence. Being aloof or having social aggression are not traits tied to a lack of nerve, confidence or drive. That is simply not true.


I agree with you. I have, however, seen people mistakenly think their dog is “civil” or “aloof” when the dog is actually fear aggressive and avoidant. I’d like to think dog savvy people can tell the difference, though.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I tend to look at social being related to confident. I imagine you can go a lot more in depth and sight examples of this or that contradicting that opinion, but I like looking at it that way.


I'm curious, are you referring here to puppies, older dogs, or both? Because I kind of see it as MAWL stated. Lots of older, confident dogs have appropriate suspicion of strangers...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Saying that a social dog is likely confident is not the same thing as saying confident dogs are usually social. That's how I took Steve's comment anyway.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Saying that a social dog is likely confident is not the same thing as saying confident dogs are usually social. That's how I took Steve's comment anyway.


This is how I read it, as well.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have seen plenty of nerve bags that are social. Most of the social dogs I know exhibit a lot of environmental issues. I just can't see sociability being linked to confidence although both can occur in a dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My WL is more social than standard, but as he matured, he became less social. It was partly him and also the way I began rewarding or discouraging behaviors. Our trainer said WL dogs should be aloof. He doesn’t have any stake in whether my dog is social or not, but he actually said that when you get a WL you want natural aloofness (and no, he doesn’t read this forum, his experience was as a WL handler, detection and apprehension). By age 2-3, he stopped pulling to greet people and learned some natural aloofness. He is social with some dogs and not others. His job at home is watch dog. He is not a PPD but I expect him to alert me and to let strangers know they are being monitored. So for that reason, I would not want him to be overly social. If I get a therapy dog, I will need a very different personality and maybe a different breed. 

The confusion here between confident dogs and nerve bags is confusing me. By now, we should all be on the same page about breed standard and when it’s Ok for a GSD to deviate from breed standard.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen plenty of nerve bags that are social. Most of the social dogs I know exhibit a lot of environmental issues. I just can't see sociability being linked to confidence although both can occur in a dog.


That’s a really interesting observation. The more social GSDs I have seen have also been really solid environmentally. I’m talking appropriately social, not social in the way a Golden is. My own nervebag is not social at all, and also a wreck environmentally. Granted he is just one dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I pointed out something I like in puppies and young dogs. Something I've observed, but I admit I'm generalizing and someone can always find a contradiction to it. You can always dissect the parts of their temperament down to whatever, I'm comfortable with what I've seen over time.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> That’s a really interesting observation. The more social GSDs I have seen have also been really solid environmentally. I’m talking appropriately social, not social in the way a Golden is. My own nervebag is not social at all, and also a wreck environmentally. Granted he is just one dog.


My comments were generalized to all dogs but I have seen the same in German Shepherds. I was talking about a more social dog, not ones that are social on their own terms. 

Think about it this way. On a personal level with dogs that you have known, but not necessarily your own. How many of those dogs would you consider social? Out of those you would consider social, how many of those tolerate fireworks? You can generalize that to all breeds or just GSDs and I bet you get the same results across the board.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

My wife's new pup has turned out to be social and very confident. He also has a very calm nature around other dogs and his calmness appears to rub off on them too, even reactive dogs will settle around him. It's like he emits a sedative or something.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> My wife's new pup has turned out to be social and very confident. He also has a very calm nature around other dogs and his calmness appears to rub off on them too, even reactive dogs will settle around him. It's like he emits a sedative or something.


Do you think he will have the natural ability to protect without training as the breed standard calls for? Honest question.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My comments were generalized to all dogs but I have seen the same in German Shepherds. I was talking about a more social dog, not ones that are social on their own terms.
> 
> Think about it this way. On a personal level with dogs that you have known, but not necessarily your own. How many of those dogs would you consider social? Out of those you would consider social, how many of those tolerate fireworks? You can generalize that to all breeds or just GSDs and I bet you get the same results across the board.


It has not been my observation, generally, that dogs that are more socially open are environmentally fearful. I have definitely seen dogs who appear social, but are actually insecure and offering appeasement behavior be less sound environmentally. I have owned dogs like that in the past, and I have several friends and acquaintances who have dogs that would fit that description. 

I’m not tying to argue or say your observations don’t hold water. It just hasn’t been my experience, which is why I commented that it was interesting.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> It has not been my observation, generally, that dogs that are more socially open are environmentally fearful. I have definitely seen dogs who appear social, but are actually insecure and offering appeasement behavior be less sound environmentally. I have owned dogs like that in the past, and I have several friends and acquaintances who have dogs that would fit that description.
> 
> I’m not tying to argue or say your observations don’t hold water. It just hasn’t been my experience, which is why I commented that it was interesting.


Actually, I think we are talking about the same thing. I do classify those dogs who offer appeasement behaviors as social dogs.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Do you think he will have the natural ability to protect without training as the breed standard calls for? Honest question.


We wondered about this early on and joked about his personality, but he's fine and is maturing nicely, We are sure that all the pieces are there plus some attitude to go along with it. He has a ton of confidence and zero problems environmentally. I have no doubt he represent the breed well.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> We wondered about this early on and joked about his personality, but he's fine and is maturing nicely, We are sure that all the pieces are there plus some attitude to go along with it. He has a ton of confidence and zero problems environmentally. I have no doubt he represent the breed well.


Did not mean to imply that your dog did not meet the standard. 

My intention was to stress to others that the standard calls for the ability to naturally protect regardless whether a dog is social or not.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I stood by, for a bit today, watching two little boys trying to get their dog to drop a ball he'd just fetched by hitting him with the chuck-it, or kicking him, while their dad talked on the cell phone ignoring the scene.

Of course the dog did not drop the ball ever, but the kids were equally committed to their "task" and didn't take non-compiance for an answer. After just a few minutes I couldn't take it any longer! 

So, I explained and helped show the boys the two ball technique, which I personally have never used with my own dogs, but have with others...and violla, their dog started dropping its ball right away - no hitting or kicking required! 

Just another day at the dog park, which due to circumstances we visited 3 times today...


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Nice! 

It's strange, but Rumo and I have passed more people hitting/kicking their dogs than you would ever think. We once rounded the corner in an apartment complex and came upon the shocking sight of a well-dressed young lady kicking her dog again and again...a medium-sized brown hound dog. The dog came up to us with tail wagging and I said, "She looks like a sweet dog??" Her owner said, "But she's been so BAD today!" My immediate thought was - the dog is now out on a walk and probably has no idea why she is being kicked for something she did earlier ( go potty in apartment? bark a lot? chew up a sofa?). Anyway I thought about beginning a conversation, but the lady looked cranky and not in the mood to discuss dog training or dog psychology, so I let them be. It made me sad though and I still wonder about that dog...haven't seen her since, and I wonder if the lady rehomed her (maybe, not a bad thing)...


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I guess that is where we get the phrase, "being treated like a dog". Even though people claim to love animals and the dogs are their family, they are also often the recipient of built up frustration...made at your boss, kick the dog. Spouse annoying you, kick the dog. Kids driving you nuts, make them take the dog out and they'll drag the poor thing around. 

I guess sometimes you don't address the treatment of the dog directly. You could try something like, "rough day?" and then get around to teaching about dogs later. Just my 2 cents.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> I stood by, for a bit today, watching two little boys trying to get their dog to drop a ball he'd just fetched by hitting him with the chuck-it, or kicking him, while their dad talked on the cell phone ignoring the scene.
> 
> Of course the dog did not drop the ball ever, but the kids were equally committed to their "task" and didn't take non-compiance for an answer. After just a few minutes I couldn't take it any longer!
> 
> ...


Just wondering if that dad took notice of your help.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Dog park has something of the MVD about it. 

A few days ago there were only two people there in our giant park, separated by a fence. Girl nearest me keeps suspiciously looking over at the other lady, who's under the shade. Jupiter and I come in and start playing fetch. Walking the perimeter as we usually do, the two dogs bark viciously at Jupiter, guarding the entire south park area from us. I think "it's not worth it," and stay in the north area.

A few days before that, we were there and this lady's dog, looked a bit like a Shelty, came out of nowhere to bite Jupiter's leg. He kind of shrugged it off. Later the ball landed near the dog and it and its brother gang up on Jupiter, attacking him and biting him, apparently not noticing that he's over 70 lbs now. I kind of gave the owners a "really?" look and just moved to a different area. Luckily, she left after that.

Two owners bringing their aggressive dogs to the dog park in just a week. Makes you wonder.

Jupiter seems to have really settled down, and interacts peaceably with all dogs, with the exception of sometimes nipping a bit at the ones who want to be chased. He is pretty neutral to both dogs and people and mostly just wants to chase the dang ball for miles. I rarely hit him with my Chuckit stick, and I doubt that tough little beast would feel it even if I did.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My approach was to engage the boys, one about 7 and another about 4 or 5, telling them I'd show them a trick! I gave the older boy a ball and explained what he needed to do, then had the younger boy throw the ball. Of course showing the dog another ball when he returned worked first time and he dropped the ball in his mouth. Which made the boys very happy and excited to try that trick again!

And yes, dad did take notice and, acting embarrassed, explained that he'd forgotten his treats that day as if that explained everything! 

If that was the worst treatment or training mistake I see on a daily basis though, that would be awesome...sadly it isn't. What bothered me about this so much is that these were young kids...already thinking that abusing a dog was (a) acceptable, and (b) teaching the dog something?! 

I hope the kids learned something!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

CactusWren said:


> Dog park has something of the MVD about it.
> 
> A few days ago there were only two people there in our giant park, separated by a fence. Girl nearest me keeps suspiciously looking over at the other lady, who's under the shade. Jupiter and I come in and start playing fetch. Walking the perimeter as we usually do, the two dogs bark viciously at Jupiter, guarding the entire south park area from us. I think "it's not worth it," and stay in the north area.
> 
> ...


A lot of people don't understand dog behavior or just don't care. They can't imagine their cute and precious dog being a problem or just don't care when it is. That's partly why dog parks can be so hit or miss. 

I would warn you to be careful playing fetch there especially if you're using a chuck it as that's generally longer range. Toy aggression can cause fights to break out and if you've already had incidents so close together there's definitely the potential there. Some dog parks ban toys, I wish all would and enforce it. I know they're good places to go and run off steam but if you haven't thought about it before it's something to think about. If you're alone most of the time then probably not an issue.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

"And yes, dad did take notice and, acting embarrassed, explained that he'd forgotten his treats that day ........."

Sometimes all it takes is ignoring what's being done wrong and showing what can be done to help. Along with a little bit of causing inadvertent mild public embarrassment is a pretty good way to get someone to think about it.

You probably made their "aha" light bulbs lite up.


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

We brought our puppies to the dog park for the 1st time yesterday. Our 5 month old male was very vocal and in the face of every dog that walk by, but all he wanted to do was play and he had no clue how to play yet. Him and our female are very rough with each other, bark and roll around, he was doing the same thing with every other dog. The concern was that not every other dog would understand that he was doing this playfully. So we let him tire out in the secure holding gate before letting him in with the other dogs. 15+ dogs all running around playing happily, no one got into it... it was awesome to see. There was 1 older GSD named Hurricane that defiantly let the puppies know when they had gotten to close, but even he settled and never did anything but bark. I will admit I tend to go more on the cautious side when it comes to dogs but I feel if you can not control your dog or have fears of aggression then the dog park is not for you. There is nothing worse then bringing your dog to a "safe" place to play and have an attack happen.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

There is no such thing as a safe place with 15 random dogs running about. 

It's all fun and games... until it isn't.


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

Saco said:


> There is no such thing as a safe place with 15 random dogs running about.
> 
> It's all fun and games... until it isn't.


Trust me, my anxiety was at a all time high while my husband and I kept an eye on both our puppies. I always go to the worse case scenario and I thought for sure something bad would happen but it was such a peaceful situation with all the dogs getting along and playing. Some were playing rough of course but there was nothing to yell about. Our male was so happy to run around with all these new friends, our female basically sat next to me and wouldn't allow anyone to sniff her... it was quite hilarious because at home she is the bossy player and he is more laid back. 


What I meant by "safe place" was that most people bring there dogs to the dog park and do not want to worry about an aggressive dog attacking there dog. If I knew our dogs would have been that way I would have never let them off leash in that situation.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Kazel said:


> A lot of people don't understand dog behavior or just don't care. They can't imagine their cute and precious dog being a problem or just don't care when it is. That's partly why dog parks can be so hit or miss.
> 
> I would warn you to be careful playing fetch there especially if you're using a chuck it as that's generally longer range. Toy aggression can cause fights to break out and if you've already had incidents so close together there's definitely the potential there. Some dog parks ban toys, I wish all would and enforce it. I know they're good places to go and run off steam but if you haven't thought about it before it's something to think about. If you're alone most of the time then probably not an issue.


I could see that being a problem, but frankly we wouldn't go if it weren't for fetch. Normally I keep Jupiter running most of the time so he doesn't get into trouble.

Today there was this weird dog who had his ball in his mouth the whole time and kept chasing Jupiter around and kind of ramming him in the ribs until Jupiter started to fight back and bite him. The owner didn't seem to notice his dog kept pestering my dog, chasing him all around the park, repetitively, or that Jupiter was starting to get annoyed. 

Most of the owners and dogs at this park are good, but then you get things like this and makes you wonder. I know there are incidents, sometimes serious ones, and I guess we all have to weigh things in our own way.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I just reread every post in this thread, and very much enjoyed it! 

So I thought I'd give a little update...

Nyx is now just a month shy of 3 yrs old. No dog aggression, still good with puppies, still intact (though that is more due to situational issues than my desire!).

We lived in Colorado for her entire life, until early this year. Now we're nomads, living on the road. I bought a truck and a slide in camper and since this past May we're traveling...mostly, so far, in the western half of the states.

She's consequently been in dog parks in many many cities, in 6 different states, and continues to be just fine with any dog she meets. 

I'm staying for the winter near the Oregon Washington border, so I've been frequenting both the Oregon-side river beaches, and an off-leash dog park in Washington. 

She is soo good with little dogs, it amazes me! A small Chi snapped at her just today at a completely new-to-her dog park, and she turned the other cheek and walked away! Trust me, she no longer does that with mature dogs her size, but with a little dog, no problem. 

Anyway, folks, predictions that my dog would be dog reactive or dog aggressive due to her encounters at dog parks clearly missed the mark!
She's good in all environments, dog park, home depot, in leash people parks, friends houses, you name it. She is appropriately aggressive toward aggressive dogs, but can be called away easily. 

All in all, contrary to all the fear mongering that goes on about dog parks, she's a perfect example of what IS possible in terms of dog reactions. 

She doesn't hesitate to tell a dog to back off when needed, but is fine if they listen. Dogs have a way. 

And in the end, I can confidently take her with me anywhere!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

That is great to hear Tim! I hope your current nomadic lifestyle is of your choice. It sounds fantastic. I think the one thing you missed in your praise of dog parks and the benefits you are reaping is not only a dog that you can take anywhere, but a dog that can enjoy going anywhere too.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks Dee, my current lifestyle was definitely a choice, and I'm really loving it! And yes, perhaps Nyx is exceptional in that she really does enjoy the dog park environment, but I think that's as much learned as it is innate.

For me, it's about having a dog that can handle anything. That means friendly dogs one might meet, but unfriendly dogs as well.

All of the dogs your dog will meet when you're out and about are not friendly. Not all well behaved. A dog IMHO, NEEDS to know how to EFFECTIVELY deal with THOSE dogs as well... Nyx is awesome on all counts. She's a VERY good dog, although admittedly I "might" be slightly biased LOL!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Outstanding! I'm not surprised, you've put a good deal of time into training Nyx, but this is good to read. One question tho: Is there a secret club of nomads on the forum or something? :grin2: What's with people packing up and going on the road? What am I missing?


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Aly said:


> Outstanding! I'm not surprised, you've put a good deal of time into training Nyx, but this is good to read. One question tho: Is there a secret club of nomads on the forum or something? :grin2: What's with people packing up and going on the road? What am I missing?


Sounds good to me! 
Over here, the roof needs replacing, the living room window has a crack, the lawn needs overseeding, the interior walls could use a paint job, the deck and fence need staining ... just last night I was saying to my husband, after the kids move out let's rent a townhouse! :laugh2:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Aly said:


> Outstanding! I'm not surprised, you've put a good deal of time into training Nyx, but this is good to read. One question tho: Is there a secret club of nomads on the forum or something? :grin2: What's with people packing up and going on the road? What am I missing?


I've actually been amazed at how many people I've met that are living on the road. It certainly takes a shift in perspective, and it's probably not for everyone. But I really love it! 

It's way cheaper than house living, and there's no lawn to mow, no screens to fix, no trees or bushes to trim. And wherever you're at you're home.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've actually been amazed at how many people I've met that are living on the road. It certainly takes a shift in perspective, and it's probably not for everyone. But I really love it!
> 
> It's way cheaper than house living, and there's no lawn to mow, no screens to fix, no trees or bushes to trim. And wherever you're at you're home.


Do keep us posted. I would love to hear about your travels.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Tim, that is great. I follow a few RV nomad channels. Hubby and I sometimes think about snow birding for a couple of years once he retires. I've already joined the Road Life Project even though we still live in stick and bricks. 

We don't do dog parks. I prefer my dogs to remember that they can't expect to go say Hi to other dogs. In the past we have had play dates. My dogs play rough and they have each other so play dates haven't been as important lately.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> I just reread every post in this thread, and very much enjoyed it!
> 
> So I thought I'd give a little update...
> 
> ...


Glad to hear everything is going well! This is random but are you worried about diseases at all? That's one of my big worries and especially if I was constantly traveling to different dog parks in various states.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Kazel said:


> Glad to hear everything is going well! This is random but are you worried about diseases at all? That's one of my big worries and especially if I was constantly traveling to different dog parks in various states.


Nyx is vaccinated for most common diseases, so no, I'm not too worried about it. Since she's no longer a puppy there isn't as much close exposure. She rarely plays with other dogs anymore. But it gives us a chance to walk and play fetch off-leash. And she does like to run.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Tim, the DP negativity is warranted to some degree, but certainly does not apply to all. The dogs, people, and the parks themselves all play a role. People have to weigh the advice commonly given against the dog in front of them and as you know it doesn't always line up. By the percentages much of the advice given here is accurate, but never blindly accept it and sell your dog short.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

GSDchoice said:


> Sounds good to me!
> Over here, the roof needs replacing, the living room window has a crack, the lawn needs overseeding, the interior walls could use a paint job, the deck and fence need staining ... just last night I was saying to my husband, after the kids move out let's rent a townhouse! :laugh2:


You make a very good point! :grin2:


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

tim_s_adams said:


> I've actually been amazed at how many people I've met that are living on the road. It certainly takes a shift in perspective, and it's probably not for everyone. But I really love it!
> 
> It's way cheaper than house living, and there's no lawn to mow, no screens to fix, no trees or bushes to trim. And wherever you're at you're home.


Sounds very romantic, frankly. Keep us posted. Pictures wouldn't hurt...


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

Well I have another Dog Park success story despite what I thought could be a disastrous attempt to allow dog parking.

My 100% rescue GSD, Heidi, has (against my desire) been introduced to dog parks by my adult son who comes to visit
and takes Heidi around the town to various spots and parks and trails to socialize her and give her "Disney World" as he
calls it.

Fearing initially that she was dog aggressive or reactive, we've learned she was mainly just not socialized with other dogs
and slowly we realized she really wanted to interact and play. She can play rough so little dogs so far are not in the mix,
she's just too big and rough for the little ones.

She got put in her place a couple times- mildly- by bigger GSD's who had better manners and doggy skills. She listened and learned. We are absolutely thrilled that she's made this turnaround. She now goes weekly to a town doggy park
where most of the larger dogs are "city dogs" and she tones down her rough play. She has no breed bias and accepts
any dog who is not actually aggressive. She does stand her ground at those, so this is a work in progress.

So far, it's been tremendous fun for her and my son who is her social director. So there is hope for many dogs that, like Heidi, is an 'only' dog who needs playtime with others.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

When my dog acts badly I use that as a teaching moment. No need to freak out, just teach!

Don't allow your dog to ever act innapropriately. Done! 

Dog park or no! Just don't allow it...that's what "balanced" training is all about - - clear communication!

Simple, but not so simple if you listen to the purely positive folks

For me and my dog, I don't use no ever, unless I've given a command and she's blowing it off!

But tell your dog NO when they do anything that's unacceptable.

As others have said, teach alternate actions that are desired. It's easy, it's all positive, and it's fun!

The thing is, no matter how much you've trained, your dog will do stuff they shouldn't.

It goes with the program. Get over it! LOL!

And learn how to tell them NO! Because some things are best handled NOW! Don't wait...

It will get worse if you don't! Good LUCK!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

To elaborate, at one point, probably around 9 or 10 months, my dog decided that playing with other dogs was beneath her. She was focused only on her ball.

And she decided that it had to be rigorously defended, in order to keep that precious thing!

She became an almost maniac, freaking out at any dog that had the audacity to come within 10 feet of her ball!

I calmly told her to "knock it off", and over time I could see that her defensive circle kept shrinking.

After a few weeks, she'd let unknown dogs come within a few feet before freaking out...then closer and closer.

Now, she lays down with her ball and silently shows her teeth to any dog that comes within a foot. Doesn't freak out, but doesn't give in either!

HUGE improvement! Still guards her ball, but in a confident and not frantic way.

I have yet to see a dog or puppy that doesn't clearly understand her warning. Case closed! 

Dog is awesome!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

We were playing on the river beach the other day and two dogs came up to say hi. It was all good, so we went back to paying fetch. One of the other dogs was one that enjoyed chasing my dog rather than the ball. OK... Nyx warned her a couple times, and the dog then maintained a respectful distance while still having fun.

Totally lost on the owners of said dog. They just heard growls and such from my dog and were panicked to get their dog away! 

They came and took their dog away...but it kept coming back. 4 times they took her away,...

Wasn't a problem, but they were worried. People are odd.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am going to throw this in here. Dog parks vary widely from place to place, and one of my big issues with them is filth. I used to cringe when I saw people with pups in the ones in Calgary.
Some dogs should never be in dog parks and some owners take a hugely entitled view of them. A dog park is NOT a place to bring an aggressive dog. No dog that is out of control belongs in one. If you need to chase/corner/lasso your dog to catch it then that needs to be addressed first.
I had any number of people suggest that I muzzle Shadow and turn her loose at a dog park to solve her issues. And I have seen people do just that with their dogs. It's inappropriate and potentially dangerous.
I have had dogs that loved dog parks, dogs that were fine either way and dogs that hated them. Bud loved them, Sabi was fine but, like Nyx, had issues with rude behavior and Shadow is terrified of dogs so that's not even a debate.
I think people need to know their dogs, know the warning signs and also know their area.
It's not a park, but I had a popular area recommended to me last week. I took Shadow there to check it out. I literally was stepping around dog feces every other step, no way would I let Shadow play there! We walked for a couple of minutes to see if it was just a parking lot area issue. It only got worse.
I do/have utilized dog parks, with Shadow, over the last year. We've found some nice and some terrible. Sometimes we had to wait for them to clear out and sometimes we went really late or really early. 
Tim I think it's fantastic that Nyx is as good as she is, but I don't know that she is typical. Most of the GSD's I have had were cool with other dogs, but not really wanting to interact with them beyond perhaps a greeting. Bud would have been the exception. Go figure, the intact male LIKED playing with strange dogs!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't know why it's odd that people are worried that your dog is growling at their dog. I'd be worried and trying to intervene as well, if my dog was chasing another dog who was chasing a ball, and there was growling going on.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't know why it's odd that people are worried that your dog is growling at their dog. I'd be worried and trying to intervene as well, if my dog was chasing another dog who was chasing a ball, and there was growling going on.


See that's what is funny! This wasn't a dog park, it was a state owned river beach. My dog and I were content playing ball alone. But these two dogs ran over to us, not once but numerous times to see my dog.

After an amicable greeting, we started playing fetch again. My dog, as anyone watching could clearly see, was just communicating that the ball was off limits.

Nothing to worry about. Just a statement. Nyx showed no tension, no further hostility.

The other dog was respectful of that and followed, but stopped short each time. No problem. They worked it out just fine. 

It wasn't a situation where Nyx was repeatedly growling at this dog (though, of course, that's what you're imagining). It was a one time communication thing.

And let's not overlook the fact that we were a couple hundred feet down the beach keeping to ourselves and their dog came to us! 

What I find funny, is that the people show all kinds of concern for their dogs, but not enough to teach them! See, everytime their dogs came running to us, they were attempting to call them back all the way LOL!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Tim I think it's fantastic that Nyx is as good as she is, but I don't know that she is typical. Most of the GSD's I have had were cool with other dogs, but not really wanting to interact with them beyond perhaps a greeting. Bud would have been the exception. Go figure, the intact male LIKED playing with strange dogs!


Nyx does not play anymore with other dogs, except briefly and very selectively. But she's okay with them, and actually likes them being around. 

Day before yesterday we were walking and playing fetch on that same beach, and we encountered an older couple with 2 female spitz dogs.

After a greeting, we walked along the beach together talking for a bit before they started throwing a ball for their dog. Nyx, of course tried a couple times to steal their dog's ball, but I called her off. No issues. No fights. No problem!

The guy kept telling me it was okay if she got the ball, he'd just found it on the beach. But I don't want her to practice bad habits, so call her away I did. 

As we were walking and talking, we came across a young mother and her 2 little kids playing on the beach. They also had a little cattle dog, who, seeing us approaching had run up the bank to watch from a safe distance. Nyx noticed and showed interest, but since the cattle dog showed tension, I kept her from greeting him. And this is all off leash of course.

My point is, it's important to train your dog. No one can just throw a dog into novel situations and hope they'll do what you want! Especially with other dogs and people around!

Nyx has had years of practice!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Nyx does not play anymore with other dogs, except briefly and very selectively. But she's okay with them, and actually likes them being around.
> 
> Day before yesterday we were walking and playing fetch on that same beach, and we encountered an older couple with 2 female spitz dogs.
> 
> ...


Train yes! Without a doubt. But again, KNOW YOUR DOG! I fostered a mill dog that was just a hot mess. No chance that she would have ever been ok with a bunch of dogs. Even Sabs was delicate with her, helped keep her calm in my rowdy pack of hooligans. And the punk here is seemingly curious about the odd dog, but freezes and tries to bolt if they even look at her, goes to battle mode if they rush. Years of training and conditioning have made her controllable. Beautiful Dobe on the corner rushed the fence and scared the bejeezus out of her. First time in a long time she has tried to slip her collar. She will only walk by that house now if I let her hide her face in my hand. Can you imagine her in a dog park? Lol.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> See that's what is funny! This wasn't a dog park, it was a state owned river beach. My dog and I were content playing ball alone. But these two dogs ran over to us, not once but numerous times to see my dog.
> 
> After an amicable greeting, we started playing fetch again. My dog, as anyone watching could clearly see, was just communicating that the ball was off limits.
> 
> ...


Well, a growl is a warning. Only the dog growling knows exactly the boundary of that warning, at what point they will or won't fight, or how severe it will be.

I have dogs that growl at each other and I'm totally fine with it, I know what the growler will do and whether the one being growled at will respect, but for dogs and people who don't know each other it seems prudent to physically separate them in the scenario you described.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, a growl is a warning. Only the dog growling knows exactly the boundary of that warning, at what point they will or won't fight, or how severe it will be.
> 
> I have dogs that growl at each other and I'm totally fine with it, I know what the growler will do and whether the one being growled at will respect, but for dogs and people who don't know each other it seems prudent to physically separate them in the scenario you described.


Dogs actually indicate pretty clearly what they're thinking via posture and body language. Which is why I said it was obviously not a problem!

The real point is, a dog should not be allowed off leash with other dogs unless you have a little better obedience and experience off leash.

But people do that kind of thing all the time, at dog parks, on mountain trails, beaches etc., and then they blame others for their unruly, poorly trained dogs, or for not micro managing their dog, when it's really their out of control mutt causing the problem!

I let dogs be dogs, and I refuse to micro manage! I do watch, and if there's excessive tension between a couple dogs I'll call mine away and go for a walk or something. But I simply refuse to do that avoidance thing for a prolonged period. 

If your dog can't handle being there and interacting with "strange" dogs, they have no business off leash on in the first place!

That being said, I've seen very few dogs that are always okay with every dog they meet, and Nyx is no exception. I will and do manage that and won't allow bad behavior by my or any other dog!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Dog Parks Suck.
If you get 20 dogs at the park, 17 of the dog owners are idiots.....
The end.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sounds a lot like the same kind of pent up frustration that leads to road rage! Lighten up! 

Most of the folks I've met at dog parks have been pretty nice people. Granted there's truly a HUGE spectrum of dog experience and knowledge...but that is to be expected. Everyone starts somewhere!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My real "dog park blues" story now is that we can't go! Fortunately for me I now know lots of people with dogs, and go to a state owned and controlled river beach area where having dogs off leash is fine.

I have noticed though, since this whole Virus insanity started, that my dog seems to become less accepting of random dogs the longer she's away from them...

Since I don't like that, I make sure we get out with other dogs pretty frequently...even now.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> Well, a growl is a warning. Only the dog growling knows exactly the boundary of that warning, at what point they will or won't fight, or how severe it will be.


Exactly! My male GSD met a small terrier at a dog park. She was very possessive of any toys she found. She would very quickly follow up a growl with a bite. And before I knew what was going on, my dog had lost a small chunk out of his ear! 

The owner, fortunately, was dog savvy, and quickly realized that even if he didn't bring toys to the park, the dog would defend any toys she found, and there were always a few tennis balls lying around. He stopped bringing her to the park.
Unfortunately, not all dog owners are that savvy!


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> Sounds a lot like the same kind of pent up frustration that leads to road rage! Lighten up!
> 
> Most of the folks I've met at dog parks have been pretty nice people. Granted there's truly a HUGE spectrum of dog experience and knowledge...but that is to be expected. Everyone starts somewhere!


This has been my experience, too. Mostly normal folks, some really smart or good-hearted ones, some sloppy ones, and occasionally some punks. The average level of knowledge tends to be less than that of an aficionado. The average dog-park user is just a normal person who wants their dog to get some exercise and have a good time. There's not a lot of trained dogs around.

Like in most group situations, there will be friction. It will be easier to fit in the closer to average you are.

GSDs are not average dogs. Despite being a good citizen for many months, it only took Jupiter herding/nipping a few puppies before we acquired a nasty reputation and people started talking about us, and not very subtly. No one minded the huskies and mixed-breeds that wrestled and snarled and chased each other in the central mosh pit, even though they caused daily confrontations. But Jupiter is big and black and looks like a police dog, so people felt free to judge and make remarks about his "balls" (he's intact).

In any case, the truth was he was a bit rough a few times, so with the social pressure and his overly harsh puppy disciplining, we stopped going around 9 months. Before that, he'd done very well. He'd been attacked once by a crazy Vislya owned by a disabled girl who had no ability to control him. Once by a weird pit bull who always had a ball in its mouth and kept jabbing the ball in Jupiter's ribs. 

But all in all, had a lot of fun and got along fine with everyone. I think the fears and cautions are overdone. If your dog is so fragile, getting into one fight "ruins him," IMO your dog wasn't sound. It was just a matter of time. 

Definitely, you take a risk, just like you do as a human walking in a park or playing pickup basketball or taking your car on the freeway. But overall, a medium-sized, well-adjusted dog has a good chance of having a good time at a dog park.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

Dog parks remain closed in Ohio. While people don't always respect social distancing here, and you see plenty of people on bike paths, softball diamonds, baseball diamonds, tennis courts, and for God's sake, dozens of kids on a track/ football field, the local dog parks are locked and the ranger would undoubtedly ticket anyone he saw there, or at least warn them the heck out. 

As to their merits, I also liked them the first couple of times, actually more than a couple of times. No incidents, plenty of fun to be had. Then one day, I let my puppy in (at maybe 5 months old?), and immediately a Chihuaha got chippy. That is a no-win situation for a GSD of larger than say, 20 lbs. Then a Great Dane. Then some mutt. And you'd just have to take my word for it, she is a social, confident pup. She wasn't taking this dog's ball, or missing that dog's social cues. They just wanted to pick on a puppy to boost their own status, or because sometimes, that's what some dogs do. And you can't always predict it, with 100% accuracy. Get it right 99 out of 100 times, and on the 100th time you get a serious, mauling fight, that's a fail in my book. 

So I got her out of the big dog park without incident that day. Started taking her in the smaller one, based on a "green book" of dogs she had god experiences with before. As mentioned in other posts, the nature of this park was, we fairly rarely saw the same nice dogs and owners twice. We might meet new ones, but rarely saw the same ones. 
Then we had to go out of town for almost a solid month due to illness, death and funeral. She went with us, and we got off the dog park train. When we returned, COVID hit soon thereafter. 

I keep an open mind, but part of that open mind is noticing that even those on this forum who have good things to say about dog parks have had what I would deem some pretty negative experiences there. 

Risk is inherent in life, sure, but that doesn't mean you wear golf spikes in a lightning storm, tailgate on a freeway at 93 mph, play pickup basketball with people who settle disputes over fouls with gunplay. I'm just not sure for me the upside is worth a possible vet visit, whether my dog goes there, or sends another dog there. And when I take risks myself, that's one thing. When I take them with a puppy who depends on me to make decisions for it, that's different. 

As to effects of one fight, guess it depends on the dog, but probably depends far more on the severity of the fight. A much more experienced guy at Schutzhund training was talking with me about his Doberman, acquired from Europe after a long search. This guy knows his Dobermans and is also around GSDs all the time. He mentioned that his male Doberman got in what he described as a pretty bad dog fight while he was still overseas, when a GSD sprang up from a long down at some training site and grabbed him. His dogs are pretty amazing,and anything but nervy, in the times I've seen them. But he said the fight did affect the way his dog behaved, at least for a while. Food for thought.

To take this in a little different direction, I've dealt with two quality breeders of GSDs and a Schutzhund trainer, none of whom thought dog parks are a good idea for GSDs. And that is putting it mildly. Any breeders or Schutzhund people here who see dog parks as a definite positive?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Squidward, let's look at it this way. In Schutzhund, you are teaching your dog to bite. If it gets into a dog fight at a dog park, dogs or people get seriously hurt, and the owner(s) of the other dogs come after you, how do you think it's going to go??  

It just isn't worth taking the risk. And any schutzhund club I've been to takes very strict precautions to not allow dogs to interact, due to the risk of fights.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

We camp a lot and I like dog parks at the campgrounds. However, we only go when we will be the only ones there and we leave when we see somebody else headed that way. Way to many little white dogs that have never had any training.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Squidwardp said:


> I keep an open mind, but part of that open mind is noticing that even those on this forum who have good things to say about dog parks have had what I would deem some pretty negative experiences there.


As you said, risk is inherent in life and there is a definite risk in a dog park. To carry the analogy further, yes walking in lightning or playing pickup ball with gangsters or driving drunk at 2am are Bad Ideas. The question is whether or not the dog park is that level of risk, no? And that depends on the setup of the park, the particular dogs who go there, and the owners who go there. 

And your dog.

I don't go any more, but it's because my dog's social skills were subpar (mean to puppies). I think that generally GSDs are too rough and too disliked to fit into most dog parks. But some GSDs are nicer than others, and some have stronger social needs.

Breeders, trainers, and dog sports people don't like dog parks because their dogs are expensive investments and they desire their animals to have highly specific, unnatural behaviors (ie, be well-trained). Whereas interacting with random dogs can result in damage, physically or mentally, and their dogs can learn or develop behaviors that don't fit in with their goals. The individual owner has to weigh their priorities, but most people don't need the razor-sharp responsiveness of a sport dog, nor has their animal been trained to aggressively use all their power in a sleeve bite.

Reading "The Hidden Life of Dogs," a classic, really opened my eyes to the inherent social needs of dogs. Many, if not most dogs, enjoy interacting and socializing. Withholding that from them is similar to keeping an animal in a zoo. And having them at home with other humans would be like living in a foreign country where you don't speak the language, except worse. While dogs are very domesticated and love their people, in the natural course of things, a properly socialized dog wants to spend some time with its own kind, too.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

Perhaps true. I do wonder, however, when pondering the "Hidden Life of Dogs," if this is not a little like experts speculating on what trout see from below in a stream or river.
How does one really know, without being a trout? Or know what dogs secretly yearn for without being a dog?

But even so, I'd concede one can look at a dog's behavior, including some of my own dogs, past and present, and say, yeah, they are generally social creatures. The key word being "generally." Some of them more than others, and some, far less so to not at all. When my kids were small, I had a female Newoundland, bought from a breeder at 11 months. She had lived in an outdoor, very nice kennel setup with other dogs. But still, at the end of the day, a kennel, not sleeping and eating and hanging out indoors with humans. She also saw that the breeder had some prissy little dog who had house privileges, i.e., never got confined to the outdoor kennels, and got to go inside with the owner. From the Newf's body language, it was pretty apparent she did not care for that little house dog. And when the Newf came to my house, there was a small (well, compared to a Newf) hound dog, very inoffensive and friendly, who would sometimes get in our yard. The Newf not only did not want to meet him, she wanted to eat him. Or at least chased him in a way that convinced him he better keep running. And that held true every time he strayed into our yard, until he just quit doing it out of self preservation. My take on it was, as a dog who did not get bought or adopted as a puppy, but lived a life somewhat more like a rescue, she valued the human connections far more than any socialization with other canines. Now, lest any assumptions be made that she was a rogue, or not breed standard for a Newf, she loved children, never snarled at or offered to bite anyone she was introduced to, was a great favorite of house guests, and neighbors. Indeed, a neighborhood kid used to stop by to play with her in her yard every day, until he got interested in other things and quit coming around. But she could not have cared less about socializing with other dogs. 

And I'd say this: domestic dogs made a bargain, millenia ago, that they valued human connections moreso than socializing with other dogs as they were accustomed to do in the wild. Maybe for some, like hounds that are kept as true hunting dogs and run in packs, the bargain was much more elastic. Part of that bargain was, and is, humans decide where they get to go. Their sociability might be satisfying to them at some deep level. It can also get them into deep trouble if not hemmed in by the owner.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Squidwardp said:


> And I'd say this: domestic dogs made a bargain, millenia ago, that they valued human connections moreso than socializing with other dogs as they were accustomed to do in the wild. Maybe for some, like hounds that are kept as true hunting dogs and run in packs, the bargain was much more elastic. Part of that bargain was, and is, humans decide where they get to go. Their sociability might be satisfying to them at some deep level. It can also get them into deep trouble if not hemmed in by the owner.


Good thoughts, but permit me one addition. The life of most dogs throughout history and prehistory has not been cooped up in suburban homes. Mostly, whether domesticated or only tame, they ran free. They worked, they chased, they ran with their fellows. I don't mean to romanticize any of this--thinking of dog-fighting, bull-baiting, or even shepherding, it was hard, brutal work. And then there's the turnspit dog, an extinct breed kept in England that ran in a hamster wheel-like contraption all day merely to keep the roast going for its distant (and cruel) masters. But I do think the inside, one-person dog is a fairly new experiment.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

CactusWren said:


> Good thoughts, but permit me one addition. The life of most dogs throughout history and prehistory has not been cooped up in suburban homes. Mostly, whether domesticated or only tame, they ran free. They worked, they chased, they ran with their fellows. I don't mean to romanticize any of this--thinking of dog-fighting, bull-baiting, or even shepherding, it was hard, brutal work. And then there's the turnspit dog, an extinct breed kept in England that ran in a hamster wheel-like contraption all day merely to keep the roast going for its distant (and cruel) masters. But I do think the inside, one-person dog is a fairly new experiment.


This is a really good point! It's really only in last 20-30 yrs, sort of when political correctness became a thing, that dogs have been so contained and micromanaged! 

When I was a kid there were dogs all over running loose. They didn't bite people or fight with other dogs they'd meet very often. They were used to it and knew better.

Dog parks are a relatively new phenomenon, and I never even heard the term nor visited one with any previous dogs I've owned.

But, whether your dog is social or not, it's much less of a "risk" for them to be comfortable around and know how to behave around other dogs. Because chances are they'll encounter some during their life...no matter how careful you are!

So from my perspective, allowing your dog to frequently interact with other dogs minimizes the chances that your dog will fight the strange dog that runs upto them on the beach, walking down a trail, our just out for a walk.

That they seem to enjoy it is just icing on the cake!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> This is a really good point! It's really only in last 20-30 yrs, sort of when political correctness became a thing, that dogs have been so contained and micromanaged!
> 
> When I was a kid there were dogs all over running loose. They didn't bite people or fight with other dogs they'd meet very often. They were used to it and knew better.
> 
> ...


Well said Tim.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Cat people I’m sure have this same conversation. I do sure have a different memory in the late seventies early 80’s in regards to dogs. Though I did not live in on a open range or vast farmland. I did live in the suburbs with lots of woods. Many people came from the city to live and seem to think they were living in the country. Dogs roaming the suburb streets were hit by cars, poisoned going through people garbages, shot, dogs were stolen, dog fights were common, female dogs getting raped, I remember a neighbor shot a loose dog in the eye with a bee bee gun because he got to his female, remember male dogs would try to get in our house my mom had a big dopey male dog standing in the kitchen because our female dog was in heat. She swatted him with a broom. Dogs followed us on school buses -most looking lost. Most of the dogs were not aggressive or the ones that were may have been exhausted as they been traveling from town town. . I tried to bring home many. There was one neighbor though had 6 aggressive dogs and would chase us in the way to the bus stop. If you did not have a dog just get a belt or leash and leash up a dog in the streets and go for a walk - as kids we sure did that and also fell in love with a few dogs that were passing through and tried to keep them. The vast amount not all dogs that were picked up by the pound and gassed were probably not missed by their owners. I don’t see it has anything to do with political correctness but I assume it goes by ones experience how they view it. In mine all those owners the actual reason why leash laws and spaying and neutering laws , took place. It is interesting to look back and see how times have changed.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Jenny720 said:


> Cat people I’m sure have this same conversation. I do sure have a different memory in the late seventies early 80’s in regards to dogs. Though I did not live in on a open range or vast farmland. I did live in the suburbs with lots of woods. Many people came from the city to live and seem to think they were living in the country. Dogs roaming the suburb streets were hit by cars, poisoned going through people garbages, shot, dogs were stolen, dog fights were common, female dogs getting raped, I remember a neighbor shot a loose dog in the eye with a bee bee gun because he got to his female, remember male dogs would try to get in our house my mom had a big dopey male dog standing in the kitchen because our female dog was in heat. She swatted him with a broom. Dogs followed us on school buses -most looking lost. Most of the dogs were not aggressive or the ones that were may have been exhausted as they been traveling from town town. . I tried to bring home many. There was one neighbor though had 6 aggressive dogs and would chase us in the way to the bus stop. If you did not have a dog just get a belt or leash and leash up a dog in the streets and go for a walk - as kids we sure did that and also fell in love with a few dogs that were passing through and tried to keep them. The vast amount not all dogs that were picked up by the pound and gassed were probably not missed by their owners. I don’t see it has anything to do with political correctness but I assume it goes by ones experience how they view it. In mine all those owners the actual reason why leash laws and spaying and neutering laws , took place. It is interesting to look back and see how times have changed.


There's definitely two sides to the story. I grew up on military bases, so dogs couldn't run free. However, that didn't help my 5-year old brother, who made the mistake of getting too close to a chained-up Doberman. My wife lived in the country and there were packs of dogs roving there. Sometimes she had to run from them. Dogs still run free in India in enormous numbers (tens of millions of them).

We had a Siamese named Blue who was declawed, and we gave him to my Grandpa when we moved once. He set the cat free at once, and it proceeded to beat up all the other resident cats in the neighborhood and be the top cat somehow. How he managed that without claws, I have no idea. I'm pretty sure he was neutered, too, so I don't see what the point was.

In many ways our society has become safer and more controlled. The life I had as a child is completely different from my daughter's life. I was a latchkey kid and I was allowed to leave the house and "go play" with the kids in the neighborhood until suppertime. I could take my bike and go wherever I wanted. I don't know any 10-year old who has that kind of latitude. A kid walking around like that could conceivably be reported to CPS and get the parent in trouble.

That kind of freedom and boredom and those experiences were probably, on the whole, good for me. I'm not so sure what's going to happen to these kids now--what I've seen has not been impressive. I think there's a pretty good parallel with dogs.

I'd say around half of all dogs I see can't meet another dog on the leash. They're unsocialized and have only been around people. Their main experience with other dogs is barking at them from the other side of the street, or maybe one or two frenetic experiences at PetSmart puppy training. It's basically a normal behavior now to cross the street or avoid dogs. I let Jupiter meet other dogs because he's been socialized and he's fine... but many if not most aren't. One of the minor miracles of life is to see a small dog who's not yapping at us.

And our local German Shepherd Club isn't that much better. There's a lot of tension in the air and a standing rule to keep the dogs apart. It's a known fact that some of the dogs are fear-aggressive and/or have bad nerves. 

All in all, I guess I'd rather keep my dog (and my child) safe at the cost of their social development and problem solving skills, but I'm not sure the dog park is equivalent to being a stray, and there is, make no mistake about it, a cost.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I temporarily had a doberman that could succesfully interact with other dogs, she had good social skills. But those skills were telling other animals to leave her alone she had no interest in them, only in her human. As eager as she was to please and confrontational she was I could have probably kept her with no or few incidents. But my other dog loves and requires other dog interaction and it wasn't fair to her, or what I needed in a second dog. But she was certainly a dog that would not have missed other dog interaction at all. We had another small dog who liked my cat, but had no interest in other dogs, (except for females in heat). We had multiple dogs and he just wanted left in peace to enjoy attention from people. (We have a cat who despises all other cats with a vengeance, ocassionaly enjoys attention from the dogs, but only on her terms.)
Even with having multiple dogs in my case while they all enjoy playing with other dogs and get some things they just can't get from people. At the end of the day their human is #1 and they're who they crave attention from. Not all dogs are like this, particularly those left alone to get doggy, but raised in a house and given attention there's a good chance they are. I do think though we do need to do better in the US, both in teaching social skills and breeding for it.

Before I got my second dog I could tell that Codi really missed having another companion and dog her size to play with. But I was resolute in not going to dog parks. They are too high of risk and very few people actually keep small dogs in the small dog areas, and those can be some of the most aggresive. One guy got bit in the face by his doxie after it attacked a blue heeler, tried to blame the heeler when ACO got there but luckily other people saw what happened. Her dog still got a strike on it's record though and she eventually stopped going to dog parks, her dog was too likely to finish a fight. I actually used those as a meeting place when letting a family meet the foster I had. While in there I watched multiple fights break out. One owner was walking in circles around the area and his poor dog didn't know where he went so she was just following another dog owner around. Too many people bring in toys, I get people like to play fetch but if there are any other dogs there it's just asking for a fight. And when kennel cough goes around every fall, an outraageous number of dogs get it. My aunt's dog had it 3-4 times before she was even a year old, and she was vaccinated. When a mutated flu strain from horses got into dogs it's spread through an insane amount of dogs, due to the dog parks primarily. They are a very high risk area, there is no doubt. Some areas may be better but it only takes one person coming in to turn it into a nightmare. Somebody brought a ferret into the dog park once and let it on the leash on the ground, needless to say that person no longer had a ferret. I do not trust the average pet owner enough to risk my dog's life. Any GSD owner needs to be aware their dog will likely be blamed unless there is video and/or public support of you and your dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CactusWren said:


> There's definitely two sides to the story. I grew up on military bases, so dogs couldn't run free. However, that didn't help my 5-year old brother, who made the mistake of getting too close to a chained-up Doberman. My wife lived in the country and there were packs of dogs roving there. Sometimes she had to run from them. Dogs still run free in India in enormous numbers (tens of millions of them).
> 
> We had a Siamese named Blue who was declawed, and we gave him to my Grandpa when we moved once. He set the cat free at once, and it proceeded to beat up all the other resident cats in the neighborhood and be the top cat somehow. How he managed that without claws, I have no idea. I'm pretty sure he was neutered, too, so I don't see what the point was.
> 
> ...


I follow a free roaming dog caretaker in a third world country. He is a good hearted person that loves animals but is learning about them, especially dogs, through the school of hard knocks.

In his country, many dogs are free roaming and have raise their puppies in the streets living off of handouts, garbage and dumps. It is amazing to watch bitches in heat, pregnant or with new pups living peacefully with other similar bitches as long as a modicum of social distancing is maintained.

Every now and then the caretaker makes an observation about the dogs and puppies that IMO are really off base or else are spot on. One observation he made recently is that is was easy to tell what dogs were never owned, free roaming street dogs vs stray / dumped dogs that once had owners or dogs that are currently owned but sometimes wander off. He said the never owned dogs had an ease relating to other dogs and humans where the once owned / owned dogs struggled with relationships with other dogs and even with humans.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

makes sense. As much as we love our dogs and socialize them, being kept on a 6 ft leash and in fenced yards really does stunt their social growth with the wider world. We work and work on engagement with our dogs, some even trying to make ourselves the best thing ever in the dog's world. But if these dogs loose their human anchor life will be far more chaotic.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

car2ner said:


> makes sense. As much as we love our dogs and socialize them, being kept on a 6 ft leash and in fenced yards really does stunt their social growth with the wider world. We work and work on engagement with our dogs, some even trying to make themselves the best thing ever in the dog's world. But if these dogs loose their human anchor life will be far more chaotic.


Well said. 

Dogs, like all living creatures, NEED some autonomous time for their mental and emotional well-being.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I keep trying to tell my gal-dog that. I send her outside and say "go be a dog".


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I like that. From now on instead of telling Doc to " Get the unallowed symbols for expletives out of the way" I'm going with, " Be autonomous good boy"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I like that. From now on instead of telling Doc to " Get the **** out of the way" I'm going with, " Be autonomous good boy"


Ummm...**** not permitted on the forum.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

This might sound weird, like many of my other training ideas.

I taught Ole to scamper under (or on top of) a table whenever he needed a minute to figure out what is happening around him. We have picnic tables and benches spread all around our dog park. Even now, that he is often the biggest dog in the park, it is not unusual for him to run over to a table and hang out for a few seconds to a minute when a dog causes a commotion when it arrives. Ole just watches and figures out how to interact with the new dog or just avoid it if necessary.

We are also pretty successful walking laps around the park instead of just hanging out. For some reason, Ole is calmer when we are 'on the move.' We pause and interact with the other dog for 30 seconds to a minute every lap then move on. Interestingly, several other dogs have started joining us on our laps. They seem pretty happy to just explore together. If a dog finds something interesting, the others run over to check it out.

What does drive me nuts is how so many people just hang out just inside the entrance to the park. To get into the park we have to pass a pack of overly excited dogs (in my opinion) barking at the new guy. It seems a recipe for disaster. When things open up, I am going to try to figure out how to encourage owners to move away from the gates so other dogs can enter in peace.

FWIW, I grew up in a world more like Tim's. We didn't have any stray dogs. Every time a kid or adult went outside they would let their dogs run loose. Weekends and afterschool could get pretty busy. I don't recall ever seeing a dog fight. It was not until I move to college in the big city of Madison, WI  That I saw anyone pick up their dog's poop in a little plastic bag.

Things did get interesting for a while when a neighbor adopted a former racing greyhound. At first, she was pretty jumpy. After a few weeks, she settled in. She earned her street cred by catching gophers.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

davewis said:


> This might sound weird, like many of my other training ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One problem with dog parks is just what you mentioned. People go in and expect the dogs to tire each other out. The dogs might see it as a chance to walk as a new pack. Things tend to go smoother if everyone is walking in the same direction with some sort of shared goal of going forward. Even humans, with nothing to do, can turn nasty.

I also lived in a time and place when you could open the doors and let your dog out. The forest rangers didn't like it. They were concerned about packs of dogs running down deer.thought my dog was a special one who wouldn't do such a thing until she brought a leg home 😳. I never did see her in a pack, though. There just weren't that many dogs in our neighborhood. Houses were pretty spread out. She also came home with porcupine quills on her nose. That is one thing my leashed dogs probably won't ever experience.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I have a dilemma with my girl. She really really misses playing with another dog since Carly died. They played and wrestled constantly. The few times Russ has come over has been a bust, because he just isn't interested in playing with her. Going to a dog park is not an option. She's been trained anyway to ignore other dogs when we are out. It's a show dog thing. I feel bad for her, but short of getting another dog (which I can't afford right now), she's out of luck. Poor friendless dog!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

dogfaeries said:


> I have a dilemma with my girl. She really really misses playing with another dog since Carly died. They played and wrestled constantly. The few times Russ has come over has been a bust, because he just isn't interested in playing with her. Going to a dog park is not an option. She's been trained anyway to ignore other dogs when we are out. It's a show dog thing. I feel bad for her, but short of getting another dog (which I can't afford right now), she's out of luck. Poor friendless dog!


That's sad, poor Charlotte! No friends or acquaintances with dogs? 

My dog knows and can differentiate easily between venues where interaction is okay versus those, like stores or car shows, where it's not. I think it's sad for a dog not to at least occasionally have a playmate/buddy to hang out with!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> I have a dilemma with my girl. She really really misses playing with another dog since Carly died. They played and wrestled constantly. The few times Russ has come over has been a bust, because he just isn't interested in playing with her. Going to a dog park is not an option. She's been trained anyway to ignore other dogs when we are out. It's a show dog thing. I feel bad for her, but short of getting another dog (which I can't afford right now), she's out of luck. Poor friendless dog!


Shadow is a social reject, she has no friends either. She has been shunned by her species. Maybe her and Scarlett can facetime, lol.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Dog park??? I’ve heard of those.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> That's sad, poor Charlotte! No friends or acquaintances with dogs?
> 
> My dog knows and can differentiate easily between venues where interaction is okay versus those, like stores or car shows, where it's not. I think it's sad for a dog not to at least occasionally have a playmate/buddy to hang out with!


I have noticed that with my dogs too but those are usually the only times I courtesy leash them. I always thought it was the leash that cued them.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow is a social reject, she has no friends either. She has been shunned by her species. Maybe her and Scarlett can facetime, lol.


not really related but funny since you mentioned facetiming
dogs at zoom meeting with owner


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

Counterpoint on dogs roaming loose with little or no influence of human ownership . . . Maybe they really do love it, and relate better to humans and other dogs. Or maybe not. Or maybe the dogs like it, and the humans not so much, after a while. Excerpt from New York Times, on India's several million free roaming dogs and the delights of having one great big unsupervised dog park:

Victims of the surprise attacks limp into one of this city’s biggest public hospitals. Among the hundreds on a recent day were children cornered in their homes, students ambushed on their way to class and old men ambling back from work.
All told the same frightening story: stray dogs had bitten them.
Deepak Kumar, 6, had an angry slash across his back from a dog that charged into his family’s shack.
“We finally closed the gates to our colony and beat the dog to death,” said Deepak’s father, Rajinder.
No country has as many stray dogs as India, and no country suffers as much from them. Free-roaming dogs number in the tens of millions and bite millions of people annually, including vast numbers of children. An estimated 20,000 people die every year from rabies infections — more than a third of the global rabies toll.
Packs of strays lurk in public parks, guard alleyways and street corners and howl nightly in neighborhoods and villages. Joggers carry bamboo rods to beat them away, and bicyclists fill their pockets with stones to throw at chasers. Walking a pet dog here can be akin to swimming with sharks.
[End of NYT excerpt]

There is a tendency to romanticize free roaming dogs, or dogs unfettered from human interference, and think that the fenced and leashed dogs are missing out on something deeply fulfilling. Maybe so, maybe not. I confess, I just don't know what impulses and desires a dog may have that they don't communicate to humans, or that humans don't understand, even when the dogs try to convey it through some signal that we somehow miss. 

But again, dogs and humans hooked up socially because the dogs, at least some of previously wild dog-dom, concluded they liked what humans had to offer more than the life of the wild dog, which had then and still has intricate socialization, opportunities for play, demands for work, and all that stuff that maybe fenced and leashed dogs miss out on. They came to us, or to our remote ancestors, not vice versa. Otherwise, we'd be the ones dancing with wolves, or trying to, living in dens, chasing food on the hoof or in the ground. 

I don't hate dog parks on general principles. I have been in them, and had some good times there. My current nearly 10 month old puppy seemed to like them. But I go back to this. Even the true believers concede there are minefields lurking there. Too many people crowd the entrance. Maybe so, but that's what happens with entrances to all sorts of places. People bring toys. They don't bring toys. Toys get left there. Other owners (it's always those other owners, huh?) react too sharply to a little bit of noise that may be a puppy correction. They don't react quickly enough, and some dog or several dogs get bites requiring medical attention. People try to mix dogs that have too much size disparity, age disparity. That's a lot of variables to negotiate. Thanks, but respectfully, no thanks anymore. 

And I think other posters make valuable points, that the level of interest in and yearning for dog parks varies a lot. My current female pup likes them and seems to genuinely yearn to go back in. But my previous GSD couldn't have cared less, except, if it was empty enough to allow her to catch frisbees by herself, or as a place to keep an eye on lest some other dogs get out and pose a threat that she needed to keep an eye on.

I can't really look back on my growing up years and say we had a lot of dogs running loose and getting along. Kids lived less supervised lives, but dogs where I lived pretty much stayed behind fences unless they were being walked. Where I lived, a loose dog was apt to get picked up by the pound or run over by a car. One thing I do yearn for from my younger days: dogs seemed to live longer. Whether purebred or not, living mainly indoors or outdoors, 14 years was kind of expected if they did not suffer an accident or accidentally ingest something they shouldn't. My grandparents had three consecutive dogs who lived to 14-15 or more. My parents called me halfway across the country, when I was in grad school, and married, to tell me my Golden had passed at 14+. I know this drifts off topic, but I wish whatever we lost along the way in canine longevity, we could claw back.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@CactusWren my comment was in regards to dogs running free and loose and my experience. I was not referring to dog parks dog parks around here are pretty small and the area is almost always fenced which to me is containment whether there are dogs in the park or not it is containment. If there were no fence at dog parks and not managed I would imagine many of those dogs would take off and eventually explore on their own especially hound dog breeds. In regards to people each generation they certainly all have different but challenges and issues.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Squidwardp said:


> There is a tendency to romanticize free roaming dogs, or dogs unfettered from human interference, and think that the fenced and leashed dogs are missing out on something deeply fulfilling. Maybe so, maybe not. I confess, I just don't know what impulses and desires a dog may have that they don't communicate to humans, or that humans don't understand, even when the dogs try to convey it through some signal that we somehow miss.
> 
> But again, dogs and humans hooked up socially because the dogs, at least some of previously wild dog-dom, concluded they liked what humans had to offer more than the life of the wild dog, which had then and still has intricate socialization, opportunities for play, demands for work, and all that stuff that maybe fenced and leashed dogs miss out on. They came to us, or to our remote ancestors, not vice versa. Otherwise, we'd be the ones dancing with wolves, or trying to, living in dens, chasing food on the hoof or in the ground.


Here is what I remember from my distant childhood. Dogs roamed. Sometimes they came home, sometimes not, sometimes they came home injured. Injured dogs sometimes got vet care, sometimes got left to heal or die as nature dictated, sometimes their death was aided by a bullet. Or a bag on a tailpipe hose. Puppies were born wherever, some survived, some didn't. Some got tossed in the river. Few were purebred. Vaccines were largely ignored, unless the vet was there to check the cows. Dogs slept outside, because they had fleas/ticks/worms. Those that survived to old age often drew their last breath alone, in the barn or on the porch and were disposed of when discovered in the morning. 
They roamed with us kids and had fun for sure, but kids don't roam anymore either. Dog fights DID happen, just no one cared. 
So I am sitting here watching Shadow crashed on her cushy bed, watching TV, waiting for her walk which will be followed by a cookie while I make her dinner that contains the supplements that keep her free from pain. After dinner she will get her brushing chew to help keep her teeth healthy and later she will be brushed then massaged while I check for injuries, sore spots, bumps, lumps or anomalies. Before bed she will go for another nice long walk and have her bedtime cookie then she will stretch out on the bed next to me and sleep safe and sound until morning. 
I really think that people gloss over the truly crappy details of a dogs life in years gone by, and I am not convinced dogs preferred that life. I don't believe that dogs desire to be part of a mob of strange dogs, dog packs are stable units.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

@Squidwardp, what I was describing from my childhood had nothing at all to do with feral dogs! In fact, just the opposite! Feral dog packs are much more dangerous than coyotes or wolves.

It's difficult to describe, but dogs then were much more "under control" than they are now! Believe me, I've spent a great deal of time pondering why that may have been the case, versus maybe that was just my childish perception.

The conclusion I've come to is that there was a difference in training. And before anyone is tempted to condemn harsh yank-and-crank training methods of the past, that's maybe a very small part of it, but not at all what I'm referring to here.

The main substantive difference that I see is that once you contain, by leash or fence, you're faced with devising all sorts of elaborate criteria for allowing them freedom - i.e. off-leash freedom to roam, yet be trusted.

My approach has and likely always will be to do most of my training off-leash. I use a leash only when I'm required to by law, or for training leash manners. Heel is taught off-leash, then proofed on leash with distractions.

I'm not claiming that my dog is flashy in her obedience, or is at a level where she'd win any competition. But I can take her to the beach or hiking in the mountains and not have to say a word to her for hours. We're a well practiced team...

And if we encounter other people or dogs, I can, with verbal direction only, allow her to meet and greet, or not.

Some people don't like big dogs. And they have as much right to be out and about as we do! So, for example, I was out at the river walking my dog the other day (pre-COVID) and came across a fisherman. As is customary, I wanted to chat for a bit and see if he'd caught anything.

So, I put my dog in a down-stay about 20ft away, and walked up to chat. After talking for a bit, he mentioned having a big dog too, so I released her to come up and say hi if she wanted.

As Sabismom says, fights did happen, and I agree people didn't make such a big deal out of them. But from that, I think the dogs themselves learned to reign themselves in a bit.

My first dog was raised in the big city. We moved too the country when he was about 2 yrs old. He certainly learned that lesson the hard way! But learn it he did...and he became much more discerning about when to and when not to engage another dog.

We could walk down the road, off-leash, and he knew to get off the road when cars or trucks came by, and he did not go into anyone else's property to investigate a dog. Even if the were, and they always were, barking at us as we walked by.

There's always risk when a dog is off-leash in an unfenced area. But the more they practice in that environment, the more bulletproof they become!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

All though dogs free roamed when I was growing up, they did not run in packs unless there was a stray female in heat. Some ethologists believe that although dogs are sociable, they are not necessarily pack animals. 

As Tim remembers, dog fights were unusual and of far less intensity easily broken up verbally or by a tug on the tail. I never saw injuries or blood. 

Dogs here were not trained except some for Lassie type tricks. Alternatively, dogs weren't treated like little humans either. Many were kept outside. Others slept in the basement and were only allowed in the kitchen if they had house access. Parents were parents and did not allow children to use dogs as jungle gyms or kissing booths. 

India does have a serious stray dog problem and I see dog attacks in my news feeds with regularity. However, each time I have seen a dog attack human incident report in India, every time the dogs have been rabid. I can't say for sure but I believe that India has some type of ill enforced and poorly funded program of neutering and releasing of all stray dogs which is a part of the problem.


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

Understood that no one is advocating for (or remembering) an India like situation. 

Fencing and leashing was just the way it was where I grew up. Most dogs did not interact a lot with each other. My best friend had a 75 lb. female GSD, and we spent a lot of time in her enclosure, which comprised about half the backyard. She was among the larger dogs on the block, and could be a formidable sounding watch dog. But I never remember her being in a fight, or even having the opportunity to get in such. We had parks, and people would sometimes take their dogs there, but no dog parks per se. 

My encounters with multiple dogs tended to occur on a ranch owned by my great aunt. She always had several large dogs,who lived outside, kept watch, sometimes ran cattle out of the garden, maybe helped deter coyotes. She never had fewer than three, always all male. I really don't recall, but I doubt she altered them. It was a working ranch, vet bills were for cattle, was the impression I got. I don't recall them ever having a fight. And they would hang around in close proximity, chase jackrabbits together, run out to the "lake", an oversized stock tank, and generally patrol the grounds. They tended not to stray off the property, and it was the kind of place you had to be intending to go to, so there weren't a lot of risks of being hit by cars, and I never heard of any of them getting hit. 

First dog park I ever encountered was when I was in graduate school, circa maybe 1990-1993. We went there a lot, and it was an informal gathering where people showed up with their dogs, in a larger park. The trouble-maker acknowledged by all but his owner, was an unaltered standard poodle. He wanted to mount other dogs, who often took offense. This was a pretty genteel crowd. When they had an argument over the poodle's antics, it got a little animated, but no blows or serious cursing, other than maybe directed at the poodle. I honestly can't recall if there was a GSD in the mix, but tend to think not. My wife had a Cocker Spaniel, who was fairly social. There was no fence around it, so you were supposed to keep your dog on a leash.

Other than those two instances, until dog parks came into vogue, most of ours only had a few chance encounters, on walks, meeting relatives dogs (I spent fair amount of time at my grandparents, a few blocks away, and they had an acre plus lot and their own dog). Usually dog fights, when they occurred around my neighborhood, were a lot of posturing. I really didn't know what a bully type breed was until around 1980, when a girlfriend's father raised them. But that said, we just did not have our dogs interact that much. Now that I think of it, none of my dogs ever went over and visited my friend's GSD, nor did she come over. Just did not happen. Can't rule out that it happened in other neighborhoods, but the trend I saw was dogs behind fences or on leashes in the city. 
And this was a large city, but one where most dogs I knew, even if their owners had modest means, still lived in single family homes with yards. Not mid-town Manhattan or Chicago, in other words. 
A walk usually meant around the block, or for a lucky dog, a couple of blocks.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The dogs I speak of none were feral but pet dogs let to run loose with no supervision.Spaying and neutering is only beneficial in countries that are poverty stricken and let them run rapid and produce only to live short and painfully desperate and sad lives. Feral Dogs left to produce more feral dogs are Often rounded up and killed in many countries like China. I see the problems with feral cats here in America - they depend on people spaying and neutering them or they would be hired by the county to be shot because they are disturbing the wildlife, and either ran over, die of disease or tortured. You can Rehome and rehab young Feral kittens but not feral adult cats. All my spayed and neutered cats who were strays as kittens lived life to over 20. my moms spayed cat just put down was 30 years old. They certainly don’t have to talk to tell you how much happier they are to be fed and have a warm home and love. If you had farm and hundreds of acres life was different for a dog back then. Most Often if dogs were not naturally obedient (soooo sooo many) or matured at a late age were dumped on the highway and or thrown out the front door for the day or dumped at the pound. Growing up I never had a dog that was aggressive and were neutered and spayed. I did stop a intact male dog who attacked my neutered dog on my own steps in fifth grade I beat him off with a garbage can and chased him out of my yard. I grew up in a feral time where kids roamed the neighborhoods and were on their own to survivor as were dogs not much supervisions at all the late 70’s 80’s were fun making up some great stories. I always remember greatly those times but some real real crazy and often times real dangerous moments I can say was luck to escape from - balance was severely lacking back then it was just not ever addressed like it is today -leading up to the changes (of those kids which are today’s parents) we see today in raising kids and dogs.


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## davewis (Jan 7, 2020)

I am in no way advocating packs of feral dogs. Our loose dogs were regular pet dogs who were free to hang out together when their owners were outside.

FWIW, by today's standards, I would probably be considered a feral kid. Our parents were at work when we got off the school bus. We did our chores and homework. Then ran loose until our parents started calling us in for dinner around 7.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was a stray kid adopted by a pack of stray dogs. I have a very different view of dog, and human, behavior then most. I find the former much more honest and trustworthy then the latter.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm not a fan of packs of feral dogs anymore than I am a fan of packs of free ranging pet dogs. Times and places have changed since I could just open a door and let me dog roam. I admit that my current two dogs know each other very well and may or may not be able to read strange dogs very well. I guess we could say the same for ourselves. 

I do know that the few times I've been invited to join a group at a dog park I'd said "thank you but no". I generally follow with "my dogs play too rough. I don't want anyone to get hurt". This is typically followed by a funny look on the other person's face as they try to think of a good rebuttal but never do.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

Ian Dunbar talks about a "core social group" for puppies, the idea being that there are some known, well-socialized older dogs and puppies that play and hang out on a regular basis. That would seem to be a nice compromise so the dogs get to be around their own kind in a safe environment, and not grow up to be social weirdos. Unfortunately, I didn't find one of those and am probably not social enough to make one myself.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

That is how I view the dog park!

"some known, well-socialized older dogs and puppies that play and hang out on a regular basis."

And when we go to a new one, a new group get's established!

I'm always amazed when people stress that all interactions with other dogs have to be pleasant, and only with happy-go-lucky, well socialized dogs. 

I've never had a dog that got the least bit traumatized by a little dust up with another dog. And I think it benefits them to learn that all dogs are not alike. Some like to play, some don't. Some are gentle, some play a bit rougher, and some can be downright mean! It's good for them to learn that and adjust their own behavior accordingly. Again, just my opinion...

I'll never forget when my dog, at a little over a yr old, begged and begged an Irish Wolfhound to play with her. When the IWH finally accepted, she came up and kept putting a paw on Nyx and rolling her over. After a couple of those Nyx just wanted to get away! She finally hid under a table for a bit. And she learned to be careful what she wished for...discernment, is a good thing! 

My point though, is that no "harm" came from that event, she's still fine around that IWH, but she never asked her to play again!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There are a host of problems that can arise from not intervening in puppy play when things go south. Various breeds "speak" different languages and can have very different play styles. One example would be a puppy playing with a puppy with a rougher playstyle that ignored body language. A puppy can learn that other dogs ignore body language and no signaling to stop, back off, or lighten up is going to work. Considering that this usually happens early on during critical socialization periods, you may find either 1) your stronger temperamented puppy has learned to respond to his cues being ignored by becoming a bully him/her self or 2) a softer temperamented dog may be left in a state of learned helplessness. Neither situation is desirable for a balanced, well socialized companion. There is a reason that they recommend that if you are going to have more than one dog, for compatibility and peace, get the same type of dog, such as a GSD and another herder but I digress.

I also believe that if your pup is struggling with another pup that is not playing fair in your pup's eyes and you don't step in, that you are teaching your dog that you don't have his back and that he is on his own. Not only does that cause damage to your foundation with the pup, it lays the ground work for possible future reactivity. You are teaching he has to handle things because you won't. 

@Tim, I think your dog expressed very good skills in the example that you used but this is one time I think she succeeded despite you.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

There's some interesting observations made in this article on Moscow's street dogs. 









Street dogs in Moscow - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Very true, I didn't step in in this instance. But I have and do, particularly with a puppy, if or when one is showing signs that they're no longer having fun. 

But in spite of my lapses, Nyx is neither a bully nor helpless or fearful. And in fact, having been around many many different dogs of differing breeds for 50 years, I haven't seen a single case where any dog has, from a little play or even an outright dispute with another dog. 

People get traumatized, the dogs take it all in stride. Or that's been my experience anyway, provided it's on a limited basis. 

I think habitual bullying by another dog can lead to the behaviors you mentioned though...

@Dunkirk thanks for sharing that! Brings to mind a locally famous street dog in Brazil that I had the pleasure of meeting several times. He was a yellow lab, that had lost a front leg from being hit by a car. He lived in a very touristy area, and so wasn't lacking for food at all. 

What made him famous is that he always crossed at the crosswalk, and was friendly enough to actually pet! Most street dogs in Brazil are friendly enough, until you touch them. Then they bite nearly everytime!

Took me awhile to learn that the hard way!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think a lot of people miss the signs in their dogs or misinterpret them especially when a dog is shutting down.

One of the worst things I ever saw at a dog park was when a family brought in three dogs. One of the dogs was some type of a neutered Beagle/Doxie mix. As they approached the gate, you could already see this dog shutting down. It stayed frozen in place from the time it got there until it left. The poor thing stood with his head down and turned away, eyes averted, tail tucked and wagging. I don't know if maybe this dog had a bladder infection or what, but the big male dogs were piling on him. I kept my dogs as way but every time I called them from approaching, the woman would say it's okay. 

The trauma and stress that this dog endured was awful. This was not a dog park I frequent often so I don't know if the family brought the dog often but it was a heartbreaking scenario.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sabis mom said:


> Here is what I remember from my distant childhood. Dogs roamed. Sometimes they came home, sometimes not, sometimes they came home injured. Injured dogs sometimes got vet care, sometimes got left to heal or die as nature dictated, sometimes their death was aided by a bullet. Or a bag on a tailpipe hose. Puppies were born wherever, some survived, some didn't. Some got tossed in the river. Few were purebred. Vaccines were largely ignored, unless the vet was there to check the cows. Dogs slept outside, because they had fleas/ticks/worms. Those that survived to old age often drew their last breath alone, in the barn or on the porch and were disposed of when discovered in the morning.
> They roamed with us kids and had fun for sure, but kids don't roam anymore either. Dog fights DID happen, just no one cared.
> So I am sitting here watching Shadow crashed on her cushy bed, watching TV, waiting for her walk which will be followed by a cookie while I make her dinner that contains the supplements that keep her free from pain. After dinner she will get her brushing chew to help keep her teeth healthy and later she will be brushed then massaged while I check for injuries, sore spots, bumps, lumps or anomalies. Before bed she will go for another nice long walk and have her bedtime cookie then she will stretch out on the bed next to me and sleep safe and sound until morning.
> I really think that people gloss over the truly crappy details of a dogs life in years gone by, and I am not convinced dogs preferred that life. I don't believe that dogs desire to be part of a mob of strange dogs, dog packs are stable units.


I remember similar to this. Down south, the dogs slept in the ditch. I remember petting a ditch dog and it was like something you see on TV, the tick infestation...probably thousands of ticks, puppy's entire under ear flap just engorged ticks. I doubt that puppy survived. The home that these dogs "belonged" to burned. Family moved away. There was only one dog left by then, an older rottweiler bitch. Family drove her off as far as they could and dumped her off on a dirt road and left her there. She walked all the way back to where the house used to be and arrived with bloody paws. My uncle who was the unofficial animal rescuer for that section of rural Georgia did get her and heal her and find her a real home, just so you know she did not die alone in a ditch.

A friend's neighborhood also had free roaming dogs but a different kind. These were house pets but no one had fences so everyone let them out and they all kind of ran as a pack all day. Fights happened, puppies happened, no one cared. My friend's dog, a big white shepherd. Great dog. Did sleep in their house and was loved, died hit by a car like ao many.

On the other hand, these obese neurotic house dogs are not havibg a great life either...

But there is middle ground.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think a lot of people miss the signs in their dogs or misinterpret them especially when a dog is shutting down.
> 
> One of the worst things I ever saw at a dog park was when a family brought in three dogs. One of the dogs was some type of a neutered Beagle/Doxie mix. As they approached the gate, you could already see this dog shutting down. It stayed frozen in place from the time it got there until it left. The poor thing stood with his head down and turned away, eyes averted, tail tucked and wagging. I don't know if maybe this dog had a bladder infection or what, but the big male dogs were piling on him. I kept my dogs as way but every time I called them from approaching, the woman would say it's okay.
> 
> The trauma and stress that this dog endured was awful. This was not a dog park I frequent often so I don't know if the family brought the dog often but it was a heartbreaking scenario.


What a terrible sad thing for that dog, that its owner didn't understand its situation. 

There was this one game little dog, very energetic, probably part Jack Russell, that had an edge to it. It was a bit of a pain in the *ss, but it sure loved the dog park, to chase and play and nip at other dogs. Anyway, one day when Jupiter was about 8 months, he hopped up, did a fur-rocket, and bit it, maybe you'd call it a nip but it must have been quite hard. A few days later, the guy came over to me and said, "My dog used to love the dog park, but after Jupiter bit him, he's afraid to come in now. He used to be so excited to come, but now he just trembles when I try to bring him."

That was the time I realized Jupiter wasn't going to be a dog park dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CactusWren said:


> What a terrible sad thing for that dog, that its owner didn't understand its situation.
> 
> There was this one game little dog, very energetic, probably part Jack Russell, that had an edge to it. It was a bit of a pain in the *ss, but it sure loved the dog park, to chase and play and nip at other dogs. Anyway, one day when Jupiter was about 8 months, he hopped up, did a fur-rocket, and bit it, maybe you'd call it a nip but it must have been quite hard. A few days later, the guy came over to me and said, "My dog used to love the dog park, but after Jupiter bit him, he's afraid to come in now. He used to be so excited to come, but now he just trembles when I try to bring him."
> 
> That was the time I realized Jupiter wasn't going to be a dog park dog.


Are you so sure that it was Jupiter that wasn't the good dog park dog?


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you so sure that it was Jupiter that wasn't the good dog park dog?


well........ you know, that other dog _was_ a bit of a nuisance, but never rose above the level acceptable to most owners. He was small. And in the following weeks, Jupiter had several incidents where he chased down puppies and harshly disciplined them. I don't know why an 8 month old felt he had the need to control puppies so much. Since I didn't really understand the behavior nor know how to control it, and besides was getting a reputation, I regretfully decided to leave. This all happened over a period of 3-4 weeks when he was 8-9 months old. He gets along fine with dogs on leash greetings and at the elementary school, but he still seems to have a thing about puppies!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CactusWren said:


> well........ you know, that other dog _was_ a bit of a nuisance, but never rose above the level acceptable to most owners. He was small. And in the following weeks, Jupiter had several incidents where he chased down puppies and harshly disciplined them. I don't know why an 8 month old felt he had the need to control puppies so much. Since I didn't really understand the behavior nor know how to control it, and besides was getting a reputation, I regretfully decided to leave. This all happened over a period of 3-4 weeks when he was 8-9 months old. He gets along fine with dogs on leash greetings and at the elementary school, but he still seems to have a thing about puppies!


Maybe Jupiter is reacting to all of the terrier nips? I wonder if Jupiter was putting out signals to the JRT that were being ignored and one day he realized that his signaling was futile so he tried something different that worked so it has become his goto learned behavior when interacting with smaller dogs?


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe Jupiter is reacting to all of the terrier nips? I wonder if Jupiter was putting out signals to the JRT that were being ignored and one day he realized that his signaling was futile so he tried something different that worked so it has become his goto learned behavior when interacting with smaller dogs?


Oddly, I had never seen him interact with the dog, "Captain," before he popped up one day and nipped him.

Jupiter doesn't have any pattern of being mean to small dogs. What he seems to react to (outside of the JRT incident, which I don't understand), is submissive, frantic, puppy-like behavior. I'm going to try to remember all the times I've seen him do anything mean. Less than half of these were at the dog park. If you can see a pattern I can use, that would be helpful. The list feels kind of long after writing it up.

1. "Captain," the JRT-mix, who Jupiter unaccountably nipped
2. husky who snapped and lunged at Jupiter four times, and now Jupiter will growl/bark/lunge at
3. cocker spaniel who snarls/snaps/digs in and acts crazy whenever he sees Jupiter, which Jupiter reacts to by getting stiff and moving towards it
4. Giant Schnauzer which once sprinted at Jupiter at night when he was a puppy, when they met months later and the dog messed with Jupiter's ball, J chased after him but didn't bite.
5. Jupiter got excited off-leash at the German shepherd club and ran and barked at two dogs that had preceded him in the line, but he didn't bite.
now for the puppies:
6. mix-breed juvenile that was pestering J while playing fetch and messing with his ball, after a few minutes of this, J chased and nipped hard.
7. husky juvenile running around at the dog park, Jupiter looked agitated, chased and nipped
8. lab puppy on its back in front of Jupiter, but J was being "mean," looked to be nipping him but not hard
9. poodle-bichon-type puppy on its back, but Jupiter looked like he was going to nip
10. puppy ran up to us while playing fetch, Jupiter chased it and looked like he was going to nip, but I got his long-line
11. tiny puppy ran up to us and Jupiter looked like he was going to nip, but I had his leash, the puppy kept coming back until I told its owners to pick it up

It's only a tiny percentage of the total amount of interactions we've had, but it's certainly not zero and I don't know if I'll ever feel comfortable with him off-leash again.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

@CactusWren I feel for you man! A couple years back I was just entering the park when my dog darted forward and put a Husky pup, about 10 or so months old, on it's back! 

Quite uncharacteristic for her. I called her off right away and apologized to the owner, who said "no problem, he deserves whatever he gets, he's usually the one doing that".

Point is, she knew what she was doing! And my dog didn't give that pup a second look the rest of the time we were there. 

Taught me to trust my dog's instincts...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I just found this today by accident, but if for whatever reason you're unable/unwilling/or whatever keeps you away, this guy posts episodes with a variety of dogs and circumstances at his dog park. Pretty cool to watch, I thought, so I thought I'd share it here:









Gumby's Imperial Media







www.youtube.com





Enjoy!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you so sure that it was Jupiter that wasn't the good dog park dog?


So my dog "schooling" a puppy for obnoxiously bouncing in her face is "brutalizing" said puppy, or allowing, what was it, unchecked dog on dog aggression (may not be your exact words), but Jupiter biting a much smaller Jack Russell Terrier is a good dog park dog???

CactusWren, I'm not saying your dog did anything wrong! Just calling out MAWL for such blatant bias and contradictory bluster!

New story. My dog was attacked, or at least lit up by a large terrier dog wearing a muzzle. Buster is kind of an odd case. He likes dogs and will mingle with them happily, but he has an unpredictable hair trigger and will load quickly and just attack with no discernable provocation. My dog spent years around him prior to this, and they never had a problem.

Anyway, normally if a dog bites Nyx it's game on. And she started to react that way, then realized he had a muzzle on, and chose to just move away. My reaction, I tried to explain to Buster that he was playing with a deficit and that would not end well for him! But what a good dog Nyx was, to be clear headed enough to recognize that! 

PS: haven't been to a DP in 2 yrs...darn pandemic!


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