# deputy shoots self while attempting to shoot dog



## Dainerra

Deputy Sheriff Shoots Himself While Trying To Kill Family Pet

not a GSD but shows some officers are lacking more than dog knowledge


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## selzer

The dog looked nice. It was in a fenced yard. 

I think that people really do need to provide some kind of access to their front door so that people can come up and knock on the door, but no way should the cop have shot a dog that was in its own fenced yard. 

An eviction notice is a little different than apprehending someone who is suspected of a violent crime, with good reason to suspect to be armed and dangerous. 

At some point police officers have to understand that dogs are more than inanimate objects.


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## Ellimaybel

Any police officer worth his salt wouldn't shoot a man for walking up to him and yelling loudly. First rule of gun control, cop or not, is engage your target. First establish the level of threat and react appropriately.


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## Nigel

Karma! Hahaha! Quite the police presence for a cop shooting himself, lol! Sounds like he might need to be reassigned to a desk job if he cannot properly handle a gun. At least in this instance he was only a danger to himself.


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## SunCzarina

Oh no it's a pitbull /*sarcasm*/


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## llombardo

And the dog still didn't attack after a complete stranger is in its yard on the ground., sounds real vicious to me.


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## Dainerra

Selzer, the notice want even for the house that the dog was at. So not quite sure why the deputy was in the yard

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## lennyb

Karma... Gotta luv it.. I'm all for anyone police or not defending themselves when threatened BUT cops are getting trigger happy when it comes to dogs lately. I hope he not only learned a lesson but I really hope he gets reprimanded as well. Vicious dog my butt..


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## Chip18

Well that LEO was an A hole and got what he deserved! It's also a heads up for the owner! Pitt ownership requires "extra" vigilance!

Dog should not have free run of the "front fenced" in yard without supervision! My BullMastiff/APBT mix as are all my dogs was "never" out of my sight! 

"People" can be idiots! I never put my dogs at risk to the whim of some cretin!! Just saying.


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## llombardo

Dainerra said:


> Selzer, the notice want even for the house that the dog was at. So not quite sure why the deputy was in the yard
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I was going to add this, but it stated the notice wasn't for the owner of the dog, which could mean it was still for that house and not that guy.... It's a long shot but I was trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt.


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## llombardo

lennyb said:


> Karma... Gotta luv it.. I'm all for anyone police or not defending themselves when threatened BUT cops are getting trigger happy when it comes to dogs lately. I hope he not only learned a lesson but I really hope he gets reprimanded as well. Vicious dog my butt..


He isn't going to get reprimanded. In the interview they are stating he was attacked by the dog, even though the dog didn't eat him while he was down. The dog probably kissed him, how embarrassing would that be to admit?


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## Brando & Julietta's Dad

There needs to be better training for Law enforcement on lethal force against a dog. This ignorant (trigger-happy) LE had no business pulling his gun out on that dog and quiet frankly got what he deserved. Its too bad police unions protect idiots like this, instead of removing them from service.


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## Ellimaybel

The other funny thing is that he shot himself in the leg. So that means he had to have drawn the gun out of the holster with his finger on the trigger.


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## llombardo

Brando & Julietta's Dad said:


> There needs to be better training for Law enforcement on lethal force against a dog. This ignorant (trigger-happy) LE had no business pulling his gun out on that dog and quiet frankly got what he deserved. Its too bad police unions protect idiots like this, instead of removing them from service.


I'm happy to say that Illinois just passed a law that will include training officers on how to handle dogs in all situations.


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## Nigel

The dog in the video appeared to be social and well behaved, especially with all the activity going on around the neighborhood. Sounds like the police officer panicked unnecessarily, training would help for those with little or no dog experience. 

This pet shooting happened nearby, its unfortunate, but one of those times where keeping your animals secure could save its life. The incident has a few different versions depending on media source. Laslo has been a great police k9 making quite a name for himself locally, hope he recovers quickly.
Sheriff K9 Laslo attacked by pit bull during pursuit | Spokane/E. WA - KXLY.com


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## my boy diesel

*one of those times where keeping your animals secure could save its life.*
i would say in more instances than not keeping your pet secure could save its life


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## Cassidy's Mom

Karma for sure. How tragic would this story have been if he did manage to kill a non aggressive pet that wasn't a threat to him, when he wasn't even supposed to be at that house in the first place?


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## selzer

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Karma for sure. How tragic would this story have been if he did manage to kill a non aggressive pet that wasn't a threat to him, when he wasn't even supposed to be at that house in the first place?


Had he shot the dog, 

1. No one would have seen the dog, tail wagging, wondering around with the kids, acting all sweet; and we would have to rely on people who _say _the dog was nice, and social, etc.

2. It is a pit-bull, or looks like a pit bull -- that is all a lot of people need to hear.

3. The fence would have been opened and the dog would have been running free -- at least that is how it would be written up in the officer's report. And of course the dog's owner would be lying if he claimed his dog was within a fenced yard.


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## Fade2Black

Just saw this over at the Justice For Vinny facebook page. That Thug LEO got what he deserved. Their badge is a license to do as they want.....


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## David Winners

It's so easy to pass judgement when you weren't there. You don't know how the dog was acting. Do you all expect for the officer to wait until the dog bites to react? 

Sure, it's nice outside the fence with familiar people walking around. Aren't many of you the same people that say you can't trust a dog once it's acted aggressively because you never know when it will again? So now, that dog must have been nice with the officer because outside the fence with it's family around it is being social?

It sickens me that people are so willing to pass judgement on a person that has devoted their life to keeping you safe. It is tragic that all the good things that cops do every day don't get the same publicity that the extremely few things they do that may be mistakes.

I'm certainly not going to pass judgement on the officer. I wasn't there. Whenever a cop or soldier does something that can be spun to look like a mistake, it's a media feeding frenzy, and it's disgusting. If he made a mistake, I think he paid the price for it already. He will live with the injury for the rest of his life.

Next time you open your mouth to criticize a public servant, please consider that they do an extremely dangerous job for very little money under intense professional and public scrutiny. They volunteer to keep your kids safe. They go where you won't to confront people and situations you run away from. You don't have the facts. You weren't there to see how the dog was acting. You weren't the one who may have been bitten. But you are the ones who know all the answers, even though you have never faced the questions.

It's so easy to point fingers and throw stones when you have never been there. I've shot 28 dogs because I felt the life of my dog and myself were in danger. I didn't let one of them bite me or my dog first. If I did, I would have been brought up on charges for endangering my dog and the mission. I'm sure some of those dogs were just putting on a show, but honestly, how do you know until it's too late?

Go ahead. Judge me if you must. The difference between me and that cop is I'm better with my weapon.


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## misslesleedavis1

Police officers make mistakes all the time. Its not inconceivable that bc the dog was a pitbull he panicked and shot himself, ohwell. Im sure everyone including the dogs owners learned a lesson.

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## David Winners

Sure cops make mistakes. 

You think that every time a story like this runs the cop is at fault? That seems to be the way it is viewed by some.

If he messed up, OK. He will pay the price, as if he didn't already.

Why assume that the cop is at fault just because he wears a uniform?


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## misslesleedavis1

I dont but with all the vicious pitbull steriotypes floating around it could be that he totally panicked. Its really sad regardless 

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## BahCan

"Next time you open your mouth to criticize a public servant, please consider that they do an extremely dangerous job for very little money under intense professional and public scrutiny. They volunteer to keep your kids safe. They go where you won't to confront people and situations you run away from. You don't have the facts. You weren't there to see how the dog was acting. You weren't the one who may have been bitten. But you are the ones who know all the answers, even though you have never faced the questions."

David Winners....Totally agree with what I quoted from you above


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## Nigel

David Winners said:


> Sure cops make mistakes.
> 
> You think that every time a story like this runs the cop is at fault? That seems to be the way it is viewed by some.
> 
> *If he messed up*, OK. He will pay the price, as if he didn't already.
> 
> Why assume that the cop is at fault just because he wears a uniform?


Regardless of the dogs behavior, he shot himself. He's lucky the injury was relatively minor and he will be able to return to work, so yes, he did mess up. 

Cops shoot dogs, its a necessary evil to keep themselves safe, I won't argue against that. There are times when the shooting is questionable, police shooting dogs serving warrants to the wrong house comes to mind, (some folks may remember that thread). If you think the jokes, snarks & criticism people are posting are bad, wait till his fellow officers start in on him.


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## my boy diesel

*"Next time you open your mouth to criticize a public servant, please consider that they do an extremely dangerous job for very little money under intense professional and public scrutiny. They volunteer to keep your kids safe. They go where you won't to confront people and situations you run away from. You don't have the facts. You weren't there to see how the dog was acting. You weren't the one who may have been bitten. But you are the ones who know all the answers, even though you have never faced the questions."*

this should be a sticky


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## Stevenzachsmom

I keep picturing Barney Fife with that one bullet in his pocket. Sorry. Can't help myself.


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## Ellimaybel

Unfortunately David, it is human nature to pass judgement first and seek details later. I'm guilty of it same as many. Thank you for reminding us all of this.


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## David Winners

I keep picturing the dogs I had to shoot. Trust me, there is a hard price to pay for taking the life of a dog that you know is only doing it's job, in it's mind anyways. I don't think anyone could erase the picture of having to do such a thing.

Sometimes you have to do the hard thing, and you have to make the hard decision in a flash, with a million other things going on at the same time. Then everyone gets to spend days or months picking apart your actions and second guessing the choices you made. They get to review video in slow motion, take their time developing different plans of action, taking your response to a situation apart frame by frame. The sad thing is, the people that usually do this have never encountered the situation before. Yes, the dog pays the ultimate price, and every time it is tragic. The family, the cop, the neighborhood, they are all affected. What if the cop doesn't shoot the dog and gets permanently disabled because of a bite? What about the hundreds of bad guys he may have collared? 

What happens when cops and soldiers are afraid to pull the trigger because of possible ramifications they may face in the media? If a dog is rushing you, barking aggressively, what are you going to do? Take one for the dog?

I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. Every time.


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## Sarah~

David Winners said:


> If a dog is rushing you, barking aggressively, what are you going to do?


But the dog was in a fence, I don't see why you would be so scared of a charging dog inside a fence you need to pull your gun.


ETA wait I'm confused by the article and by what people are saying, was the cop in the yard with the dog or on the other side? I am reading it both ways


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## David Winners

Sarah~ said:


> But the dog was in a fence, I don't see why you would be so scared of a charging dog inside a fence you need to pull your gun.
> 
> 
> ETA wait I'm confused by the article and by what people are saying, was the cop in the yard with the dog or on the other side? I am reading it both ways


Trust me, you can *what if* it all day long.


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## Sarah~

I would just like to know because if he was in the yard with the dog running at him I would understand but if he was on the outside I think he was too quick to use his gun.


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## Ellimaybel

Sarah~ said:


> I would just like to know because if he was in the yard with the dog running at him I would understand but if he was on the outside I think he was too quick to use his gun.


I don't think it would matter depending on the height of the fence. A four foot high fence isn't enough to keep some dogs on a mission in.


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## Sarah~

Ellimaybel said:


> I don't think it would matter depending on the height of the fence. A four foot high fence isn't enough to keep some dogs on a mission in.


Ok finally got the video to work on my phone it looked like a pretty decent fence, chain link and pretty high. If he was on the outside of the fence I wonder if this is the first time a dog has ever charged at the fence at him, I have had it happen before and sometimes it does startle me but I usually trust the fence to hold. I wonder if he thought it would somehow get out and attack him just because it was a pit bull. Would a lab doing the same thing scare him enough to draw a gun? I don't know but if there was a fence between them I don't feel too sorry for the guy. And I usually side with the police my stepdad is a cop and I understand what they go through. I think about what my stepdad would have done and I don't see him doing something like this, I think I might tell him about this and see what he says.


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## David Winners




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## DobbyDad

The officer was serving an eviction notice not trying to apprehend a fugitive. If animal control did not take the dog it probably means the dog did not leave the property. For a simple eviction notice couldn't the officer have called animal control to hold the dog while he served the papers instead of simply trying to save time by shooting the dog. I also believe the officer should have been ready in case the dog left the yard. Dog leaves yard acceptable shooting, dog stays in yard unacceptable shooting.


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## llombardo

The dog is in the video that the media posted? Not a peep out of the dog, people everywhere, kids next to the dog . All I see is a calm behaved dog. If the dog was acting differently in the video I might have a different opinion, but the dog is not phased by any of the commotion around it at all. That says a lot to me.


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## David Winners

Maybe the dog is acting differently in different circumstances?

Dog alone in fenced yard. Officer in uniform enters the gate. Dog puts on an aggressive display trying to scare the officer off.

versus

Dog outside with family, off the property, been getting lots of attention.


Fama is all kinds of sweet, just ask Kat, until she's not.


Like I said, you can what if these things to death. I have been on the receiving end of a what if committe. It usually goes so far astray from the actual events that there is no connection to reality.


Does your dog ever bark at the mailman or UPS guy from inside the house? What happens if you let him out? Big difference usually.


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## Dainerra

David Winners I usually side with the officer in these situations. But if he was in such a panic that he shot himself in the leg and laid there in the dog's yard, wounded and bleeding and had no further problems with the dog, I feel safe assuming that the dog wasn't acting aggressively. 
I would expect the dog to escalate the situation with a loud gunshot, blood and adrenaline flowing. Instead, the dog did nothing. Because I'm sure that if it had, the guy would have fired again.


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## David Winners

Gunfire makes a lot of dogs back down or run away. That's why they use it for a test.

Who said he was in a panic. Maybe he tripped. 

Maybe he has a vendetta against pit bulls and thinks they should all be shot.

Maybe aliens took over his brain when he drank one too many glasses of kiwi-strawberry Kool-Aid.

I certainly don't know what happened. I wasn't there. I'm glad it looks like the dog and the officer are both going to be fine.


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## carmspack

sometimes those dogs in the front yard are there to act as a speed bump , distract and disorganize , give time to everyone inside a chance to "flush" , run out the back door , be prepared to greet the LEO .

some of the biker gangs had pit bulls , dog aggressive ones , to take on PDS K9's.



You have to provide free and safe access to your front door.


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## KatsMuse

Given the 58 years of combined LEO experience in this house, I'll chime in.
Since everyone else is giving their opinion...I'll give you mine.
And I know my opinion won't change anyone's mind or attitude. I don't expect it to.

This thread isn't even 'current dog affair' newsworthy, IMHO.

The dog DIDN'T get shot...the officer shot himself. 
And NO, I do not find that "funny" at all. 
Getting shot is not funny, no matter WHAT the circumstances are.
I don't even want to speculate about that...it's not my place.
Unclear about that part....Actually, unclear about a lot of things...I WASN'T THERE!
Stuff happens. 

If you want to talk about THIS particular officer and THIS particular incident...
That's fine. We are all entitled to our opinions. 

However, the generalization that ALL cops are "trigger happy", "dog killers", falsifying/ covering up reports and abusing their power is ... cop-bashing.
Not ALL cops are bad and use that as a license to do whatever they want.

Until you've walked in any LEOs shoes, please don't judge/paint us all in the same light.
And, if you weren't there, you don't have all of the facts, IMO. 
Despite snippets of videos, internet or newspaper accounts.

I'm the person that'll give you CPR until EMS gets there (mask or not), or put you in my car to get to the hospital because I know that a few minutes of EMS arrival can mean the difference between life & death. 

I'm the one that will hold your loved ones hands while they pass away.
Then hold you & cry with you, try to comfort you, afterwards. 
I'll sit with you as long as you need...and give you my card to call me.

I'm the one you'll call to talk to your kid about drugs and try to resolve your family/neighbor disputes. I'm the the one who tries to 'clean up' your neighborhood from people who have ruined your peace or threatened your safety.

I'll do my best to find your lost mower or lost dog with the same passion as I will do ANY part of my job.

And yes, I'll investigate my own officers for any complaint or wrong-doing, in a heartbeat!

I've missed family holidays, birthdays, etc. 
I will work nights/overtime to help you. I'll even come in on my days off, if needed. 

I know...IT'S MY JOB. I signed up for it. I'm SUPPOSED to do all of those things. I'm EXPECTED to do these things. And, I have done it...And, I've NEVER done it for the money. 

However, I also know that I'm not PERFECT. I'm HUMAN as well. 
I may not say or do the right thing sometimes.
But, I have NEVER acted out in malice, with prejudice or ill-will.
(And, I won't work with anyone else that doesn't feel the same way.)

No, I don't think justice is served all of time. Life isn't fair.
I'm not naive as to the flaws in our system.
We still lack funding, equipment & money for training. Many small departments have to decide what priorities are, given budget restraints.
(Some departments don't have separate animal control units. Most, if they do, are either busy on other calls...or even off duty.)

And FYI, serving an eviction notice on someone is no SMALL matter...it can be very dangerous. You never know what the mindset is of a person losing their home is like. 
First of all, they've usually been asked to leave, been to court previously PRIOR to the issuance of an eviction notice. (In our state, that process takes a minimum of 47 days.)

It's like a 'routine' traffic stop...no such thing. As an LEO, or any other public servant, once you become complacent in whatever you do...can cause dire consequences. 
I, for one, WOULD like to come home safe...as would most people who serve.

What about the person who wants the eviction? 
While YOU may not think it's important, the other person does. 
They've paid money and gone through the system's proper channels... And they EXPECT LEO's to do their job. 

For some people, their lost DOG is just as important as another person's missing child.
Or even a stolen lawn mower.

For those of you that are being rational, objective and fair, I thank you. 

The others, I have no comment. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
(I guess it depends on your own personal experience with LEOs & 'the system')

BTW, I've been bitten several times. All from supposed 'family friendly dogs'.

Just my opinion.
Respectfully, 
Kat


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## carmspack

really good post KatsMuse .
on this 
"And FYI, serving an eviction notice on someone is no SMALL matter...it can be very dangerous" 
my answer is oh yes it can be . I had a tenant that was so troubled the police would accompany me to post the notice of termination on the door.


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## Twyla

Just a random question....

Who has their front yard fenced in - including the path to the front door? How do you make it safe for those who want to knock on your front door? Keep in mind those who are approaching your door won't know if your dog will attack or not.


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## carmspack

You can't create a compound, fortress.


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## llombardo

Dainerra said:


> David Winners I usually side with the officer in these situations. But if he was in such a panic that he shot himself in the leg and laid there in the dog's yard, wounded and bleeding and had no further problems with the dog, I feel safe assuming that the dog wasn't acting aggressively.
> I would expect the dog to escalate the situation with a loud gunshot, blood and adrenaline flowing. Instead, the dog did nothing. Because I'm sure that if it had, the guy would have fired again.


This is my thought exactly. The dog didn't run out of the yard and for whatever reason the dog didn't go for the officer when he was down and the officer did not fire another shot. I actually respect the fact that the officer probably realized the dog wasn't a threat and didn't take it further .


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## llombardo

David Winners said:


> Maybe the dog is acting differently in different circumstances?


No I don't think so. This breed is loyal to its family and this dog did not feel threatened by police men, police cars, ambulances, news reporters, camera equipment, or the neighbors that were everywhere. The yard looks to be pretty open and I would think that one would check or feel out the situation before entering? I just don't see an aggressive dog. Even if the dog ran at the officer barking, it was doing what a dog does. The dog was obviously not visible when the officer approached the gate, so that leads me to believe that the dog isn't one to run or charge the fence aggressively either . It's just my opinion and I'm happy that both will he okay


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## BahCan

Great post KatsMuse.


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## Brando & Julietta's Dad

It seems this thread has got off on a tangent. There is more info on this than the posted article. I think the problem most people have is whether this LE should have attempted to use a gun in this scenario. Here are the facts: 1)Law Officer is there to serve (pay rent or quit notice), not to evict that day, non criminal matter. 2) LE, is a court officer that has never worked in the field other than process serving. 3) Enters a fenced area of private property with a beware of dog sign. 4) notices what he claims aggressive dog. 5) Decides to shoot and kill dog but mistakenly shoots himself. 5) Animal services deems the dog afterwards (non-aggresive). 6) Tenant is not cited for any actions of dog or non or improper access to home. 6) The LE could have called animal services to help serve the notice but chose his actions instead. I think most people would prefer to see a dog shot as a last resort and that LE training reflect this in their actions. This is a theme that has happened all too often in this country. This thread has nothing to do with cop-bashing.


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## selzer

David Winners said:


> It's so easy to pass judgement when you weren't there. You don't know how the dog was acting. Do you all expect for the officer to wait until the dog bites to react?
> 
> Sure, it's nice outside the fence with familiar people walking around. Aren't many of you the same people that say you can't trust a dog once it's acted aggressively because you never know when it will again? So now, that dog must have been nice with the officer because outside the fence with it's family around it is being social?
> 
> It sickens me that people are so willing to pass judgement on a person that has devoted their life to keeping you safe. It is tragic that all the good things that cops do every day don't get the same publicity that the extremely few things they do that may be mistakes.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to pass judgement on the officer. I wasn't there. Whenever a cop or soldier does something that can be spun to look like a mistake, it's a media feeding frenzy, and it's disgusting. If he made a mistake, I think he paid the price for it already. He will live with the injury for the rest of his life.
> 
> Next time you open your mouth to criticize a public servant, please consider that they do an extremely dangerous job for very little money under intense professional and public scrutiny. They volunteer to keep your kids safe. They go where you won't to confront people and situations you run away from. You don't have the facts. You weren't there to see how the dog was acting. You weren't the one who may have been bitten. But you are the ones who know all the answers, even though you have never faced the questions.
> 
> It's so easy to point fingers and throw stones when you have never been there. I've shot 28 dogs because I felt the life of my dog and myself were in danger. I didn't let one of them bite me or my dog first. If I did, I would have been brought up on charges for endangering my dog and the mission. I'm sure some of those dogs were just putting on a show, but honestly, how do you know until it's too late?
> 
> Go ahead. Judge me if you must. The difference between me and that cop is I'm better with my weapon.


If it were anyone, but a cop, that did something like this, no one waits for all the information (which is never forthcoming), and no one waits to pass judgement. Look at the lady who runs some shelter whose husband put the elderly dog into the car because the maids were coming, she drove her car to work and did not know the old guy was in there, and it died. How sad, how tragic -- not on this forum crucify the hag!!! 

When a cop kills his dog in the same exact way, everyone is making excuses for him and trying to figure out better ways to protect police dogs, because A LOT of police dogs die this way.

There are a LOT of dangerous jobs out there. I think the job that registers the most deaths each year is not LEO, but lumberjack. Farmers, who dedicate their life to keep you fed and dressed, are scrutinized to no end, and put up with more negativity than any cop, and their jobs are really dangerous. People die and are horribly mangled all the time in farming accidents, but no one cares about that. 

And while I am out there trying to stay on the road in a blizzard with high winds, there is a lineman up on a pole trying to make sure people do not go without power. They die out there too. 

Cops and soldiers CHOOSE their profession. There is no draft. Some WANT to go and do that sort of work. Maybe they like the danger, maybe they want to help people. Who knows. But many people CHOOSE dangerous professions, and nobody thanks them when they don't come home. 

So, big whip. It's a cop that was going to shoot a dog that was contained in its owner's yard, and was not eating anyone. He shot himself instead. I did not say he got what he deserved, but I did say that if he did shoot the dog, then we would not see a dog that seems fine with people and children wondering about. And, I do know of a cop around here who went to the wrong address and killed a pit bull that was chained in its front yard. The kids watched from the window. The neighbors were horrified. But they were in a trailer park, so the cop thought that he could just walk to his car and pull out some cutters and cut the dog's chain, so that he wouldn't be in trouble for shooting the dog. They fired him. It was his second canine fatality. 

There are probably a lot more excellent cops than bad ones out there, but when we stick up for the jokers of the bunch, just because they are cops (risk their lives, dedicate their lives and all that baloney), it doesn't do any of them any favors.


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## selzer

Responses in blue.



KatsMuse said:


> Given the 58 years of combined LEO experience in this house, I'll chime in.
> Since everyone else is giving their opinion...I'll give you mine.
> And I know my opinion won't change anyone's mind or attitude. I don't expect it to.
> 
> This thread isn't even 'current dog affair' newsworthy, IMHO.
> 
> The dog DIDN'T get shot...the officer shot himself.
> And NO, I do not find that "funny" at all. Neither do I.
> Getting shot is not funny, no matter WHAT the circumstances are.
> I don't even want to speculate about that...it's not my place.
> Unclear about that part....Actually, unclear about a lot of things...I WASN'T THERE!
> Stuff happens.
> 
> If you want to talk about THIS particular officer and THIS particular incident...
> That's fine. We are all entitled to our opinions.
> 
> However, the generalization that ALL cops are "trigger happy", "dog killers", falsifying/ covering up reports and abusing their power is ... cop-bashing. Well, if you have experienced cops that have covered up their actions after having shot a dog, then you may see it a little differently. I think that if he had shot the dog, he would have probably left the gate open too. Like the cop that cut the chain, AFTER he shot and killed the dog in his owner's yard. It happens. These are often young guys afraid for their jobs, and very aware of the possibility of public scrutiny. Some will cover up their actions. Listen to the cops, they say the dog attacked the guy. If the dog attacked the guy, why wasn't he bitten? Do you really think that if the dog was dead, they would have said anything different? Really?
> 
> Not ALL cops are bad and use that as a license to do whatever they want.
> 
> Until you've walked in any LEOs shoes, please don't judge/paint us all in the same light. That could be said of any profession, but people do it ALL THE TIME. Cops do it. We are supposed to be better than they are, and look at all cops individually, and not as cops in general?
> 
> And, if you weren't there, you don't have all of the facts, IMO.
> Despite snippets of videos, internet or newspaper accounts.
> May as well close up the section current dog affairs, if we are to treat cops fairly -- like any other individuals -- and not discuss anything unless we were right there. The fact is, we are never right there. Like the 39 dogs, none of us were right there at the time of the seizure, maybe we should none of us hold any opinions on that either.
> 
> I'm the person that'll give you CPR until EMS gets there (mask or not), or put you in my car to get to the hospital because I know that a few minutes of EMS arrival can mean the difference between life & death. I too am trained in CPR, though it is not my job, and I have driven people to the hospital, and stayed with people in an accident, and have no type of helping-profession. Any decent individual is not going to walk away when they see a person in serious trouble. I don't know what this has to do with the discussion.
> 
> I'm the one that will hold your loved ones hands while they pass away. My brother is a hospice nurse, and has gone into neighborhoods where people were shooting around him, he will be there with people while they pass away, and with their families afterwards, not sure what that has to do with this LEO going to shoot this dog.
> 
> Then hold you & cry with you, try to comfort you, afterwards.
> I'll sit with you as long as you need...and give you my card to call me.
> 
> I'm the one you'll call to talk to your kid about drugs and try to resolve your family/neighbor disputes. I'm the the one who tries to 'clean up' your neighborhood from people who have ruined your peace or threatened your safety.
> 
> I'll do my best to find your lost mower or lost dog with the same passion as I will do ANY part of my job.
> 
> And yes, I'll investigate my own officers for any complaint or wrong-doing, in a heartbeat!
> 
> I've missed family holidays, birthdays, etc. Anyone who works has missed family holidays, birthdays, etc.
> I will work nights/overtime to help you. I'll even come in on my days off, if needed. Anyone who works does this.
> 
> I know...IT'S MY JOB. I signed up for it. I'm SUPPOSED to do all of those things. I'm EXPECTED to do these things. And, I have done it...And, I've NEVER done it for the money. Well, it is a job, and the workman is worthy of their hire. C'mon, you wouldn't be happy if they gave you a cut in pay? Or, you aren't signing your checks over and donating the money to the department. LEOs may not do the job because it is a lucrative profession, the same can be said of doctors and many others -- even if the profession is more lucrative. The fact that they make more money, does not mean they are in it for the money, and I just don't see the point.
> 
> However, I also know that I'm not PERFECT. I'm HUMAN as well.
> I may not say or do the right thing sometimes.
> But, I have NEVER acted out in malice, with prejudice or ill-will.
> (And, I won't work with anyone else that doesn't feel the same way.)
> 
> No, I don't think justice is served all of time. Life isn't fair.
> I'm not naive as to the flaws in our system.
> We still lack funding, equipment & money for training. Many small departments have to decide what priorities are, given budget restraints.
> (Some departments don't have separate animal control units. Most, if they do, are either busy on other calls...or even off duty.)
> 
> And FYI, serving an eviction notice on someone is no SMALL matter...it can be very dangerous. You never know what the mindset is of a person losing their home is like.
> First of all, they've usually been asked to leave, been to court previously PRIOR to the issuance of an eviction notice. (In our state, that process takes a minimum of 47 days.)
> 
> It's like a 'routine' traffic stop...no such thing. As an LEO, or any other public servant, once you become complacent in whatever you do...can cause dire consequences.
> I, for one, WOULD like to come home safe...as would most people who serve.
> 
> What about the person who wants the eviction?
> While YOU may not think it's important, the other person does.
> They've paid money and gone through the system's proper channels... And they EXPECT LEO's to do their job.
> 
> For some people, their lost DOG is just as important as another person's missing child.
> Or even a stolen lawn mower.
> 
> For those of you that are being rational, objective and fair, I thank you.
> 
> The others, I have no comment. It's your opinion and you are entitled to it.
> (I guess it depends on your own personal experience with LEOs & 'the system')
> 
> BTW, I've been bitten several times. All from supposed 'family friendly dogs'.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> Respectfully,
> Kat


----------



## selzer

I just think that cops should be treated like anyone else. If we are going to talk about an incident that involves cops or doesn't involve cops it should be the same. If we are going to wait and not pass judgement, or hold any opinion whatsoever about a news story, than it should be the same for anyone, not just LEOs.


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## David Winners

Thanks for the insight into your moral and ethical compass selzer. I guess I can now look on any disagreement we may have as a backhanded compliment. 

This statement shows how little you understand about the sacrifices people make to keep you and your family safe. It is a shame that someone that lives under the protection of those brave volunteers could have such a dismissive attitude towards them. Maybe I should forward this to the Chief of Police and Sheriff in your area. You don't appreciate their services anyways. You could call Domino's and get the same caliber of assistance, right? But, they would help you anyways because that is how they are built. 



> risk their lives, dedicate their lives and *all that baloney*


Your blatant disrespect for public servants is apparent. It leads me to wonder what blatant disrespect you may have in other ethical and moral situations. Most people that don't respect cops have that opinion because they regularly break the law. I have no reason to believe you would do such a thing of course, just some parallels I have drawn through observation.

Again, thanks for your input (slap in the face), it's good to know that the officers and wives that have PM'd me concerning your posts will still be vigilant and unwavering in their duty, despite people like you who scoff at their dedication and selfless service. It is inspiring to know that your opinion doesn't matter to them, or me, in the least.


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## JakodaCD OA

:thumbup:


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## KatsMuse

Agree...Right there with you! :thumbup:


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## boomer11

Anyone in a position of power should be under a magnifying glass. There are corrupt politicians and Cops. There are videos of Cops abusing their power. Like any profession, 
there are idiots who make the profession look bad. It's just that when anyone with power breaks the rules it looks really bad because the public put them there. 

Imo if the cop panics and can't even pull his gun out without discharging it on himself then for his own safety he shouldn't be a cop. If that was a robber running at him he'd be dead. 

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## Betty

Twyla said:


> Just a random question....
> 
> Who has their front yard fenced in - including the path to the front door? How do you make it safe for those who want to knock on your front door? Keep in mind those who are approaching your door won't know if your dog will attack or not.


I do, I have about 7 acres fenced in, and cross fenced and plan on getting the rest fenced this year. 

People want to knock on my front door they can call me and I will open up the gate. It works pretty good. I like my compound.  

That being said dogs are normally not out in the front unless we are out there also. 

Ironically we fenced in the front to keep other dogs out of our yard. There is a mentality here that in the country it is ok for your dog to run free.


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## Jax08

Betty said:


> Ironically we fenced in the front to keep other dogs out of our yard. * There is a mentality here that in the country it is ok for your dog to run free*.


It's on my want list to fence my front yard for exactly that same reason.


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## DobbyDad

So is this topic about police in general or about this particular officer in this particular circumstance. Personally I greatly respect and appreciate officers but I also believe they should be held accountable for mistakes just like the rest of us. As with a lot of these threads it seems people must be on one side or the other. Some people are ready to blame the LEO for everything even when it is not there fault and some with LEO experience are ready to defend the other LEOs no matter the fault. Staying on topic with this thread, after watching the video and reading the very short article as my only evidence it is hard to stand behind this officer on the judgement call he made in particular case.


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## volcano

Reminds me of the video of a dea agent shooting himself in a classroom after explaining how hes the only one in the room qualified to handle it. --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0

I have guns and im more qualified than the dea apparently, I dont trust strangers to confirm the chamber cleared...


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## sparra

I don't know why anyone would want to join the police force in the USA.............paid a pittance to put up with a whole lot of crap.........


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## Betty

Jax08 said:


> It's on my want list to fence my front yard for exactly that same reason.


Only time I regretted it is when I first got my Vespa 150. It is two gates to go through to put it to bed for the night. It's too darn cute to be out in the elements.

However with all the opening and closing of gates I learned real quick how to use the kick stand properly. First time or two I was kinda jumping on it trying to get it to go down. LOL Might of kicked it a time or two also.


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## Betty

sparra said:


> I don't know why anyone would want to join the police force in the USA.............paid a pittance to put up with a whole lot of crap.........



Isn't that the truth? And every action scrutinized and judged.

And in my experience the one's that scream the loudest are the quickest to call 911.


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## David Winners

My problem is that people scrutinize without the facts.

An investigation was conducted on a shooting I had. It took 4 people over a month to decide justification, and it was a fairly simple situation. The investigators had access to everything and everyone involved, and it still took a month. These investigators are soldiers with combat experience mind you, and forensic crime scene training.

Then a story like this gets posted and all the internet experts have blame signed by the time they read half the story. They have never been there, have no training or experience in the situation, have no idea what they would actually do in the given situation (because it is usually far different than what you think you would do), and they have no evidence. Yet, they will publicly attack a member of law enforcement or the military because they think they have a clue.

Then the real winners come along and disrespect the entire profession and the sacrifices they and their families make without ever having worn a uniform. 



David Winners


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## David Winners

Betty said:


> Only time I regretted it is when I first got my Vespa 150. It is two gates to go through to put it to bed for the night. It's too darn cute to be out in the elements.
> 
> However with all the opening and closing of gates I learned real quick how to use the kick stand properly. First time or two I was kinda jumping on it trying to get it to go down. LOL Might of kicked it a time or two also.


Pictures requested 

Is it pink? My wife would love a pink one LOL

David Winners


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## Betty

David Winners said:


> Pictures requested
> 
> Is it pink? My wife would love a pink one LOL
> 
> David Winners


I wanted a pink one too! LOL Had to settle for red with a helmet with pink polka dots on it.  Seriously. And get this, the helmet was on sale! For some strange reason no one had bought it!:shocked:


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## gsdsar

I hadn't replied to this thread, cause I have seen this same type if story over and over again, and I always pretty much side with LE. I have a great deal if respect for LE and military. They do what they do so I can sit here and play armchair quarterback on my iPhone while watching HBO. 

However, I do not believe that we should accept without questioning, anything really. Just because they are doing a job I admire and would never want to do, does not mean I am not allowed to question their decisions, actions and repercussions of said actions. This country they defend and keep safe is built on the premiss that the masses have the right to question and hold accountable those in authority. When we lose that right, or when we squelch that right we are doing everyone an injustice. 

And just because I defend someone's right to speak their mind, does not mean I have to agree with them. 

I would hate to think that there is a Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men mentality. "You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall...I have neither the time nor inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it". Because to me, the freedom they are providing is the right to question. But that's just me. 


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## Lilie

Twyla said:


> Just a random question....
> 
> Who has their front yard fenced in - including the path to the front door? How do you make it safe for those who want to knock on your front door? Keep in mind those who are approaching your door won't know if your dog will attack or not.


I am totally fenced in. When my gate is closed, you don't come to visit. Everybody I know will call first. I've had people pull into my drive, up to my gate and honk. If I don't know them, I don't greet them. They can honk away. However, my dogs aren't in the front yard unless I'm out with them. I'm totally fenced in to keep other's dogs out of my yard as well.


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## CassandGunnar

Selzer, next time you need help, make sure you call 911.
In spite of the very few people that share your attitude of contempt for law enforcement, one of us will still show up to assist you.
Because we're all "like that" too.
Based on your previous history of posts deriding everything cops do, I'd rather not have your support


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. Aussies also have far stricter gun control. Very different priorities. Note: that is not a judgement, rather a neutral observation no negative implications are meant or implied. 

Since 9/11 there's been increasing tension between law enforcement in the US and citizens. There are some books out addressing this issue. Its always been a tug of war for balance between freedoms, civil rights and safety. It's a corner stone of our bill of rights and constitution. This tension it's not healthy nor good and it bleeds out in these threads. IMHO.

It's too esoteric for the purposes of this forum so I'll leave at that. Hope folks can leave this thread still friends....




sparra said:


> I don't know why anyone would want to join the police force in the USA.............paid a pittance to put up with a whole lot of crap.........


----------



## boomer11

David Winners said:


> My problem is that people scrutinize without the facts.
> 
> An investigation was conducted on a shooting I had. It took 4 people over a month to decide justification, and it was a fairly simple situation. The investigators had access to everything and everyone involved, and it still took a month. These investigators are soldiers with combat experience mind you, and forensic crime scene training.
> 
> Then a story like this gets posted and all the internet experts have blame signed by the time they read half the story. They have never been there, have no training or experience in the situation, have no idea what they would actually do in the given situation (because it is usually far different than what you think you would do), and they have no evidence. Yet, they will publicly attack a member of law enforcement or the military because they think they have a clue.
> 
> Then the real winners come along and disrespect the entire profession and the sacrifices they and their families make without ever having worn a uniform.
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners


Scrutinizing is what makes America so great. Without the ability to question people who hold power we might as well be China. 

Cops should be trained to ignore what the public thinks. Just like athletes ignore a whole bunch of fans talking crap. Everyone that serves the public gets unfairly scrutinized. Every president gets scrutinized for 4 years. You can't make everyone happy.


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## selzer

While the LEOs on the site, seem to think we should all mind our own business and hold no opinions about a newsworthy event, that is certainly their right, and they may hold their opinions until the end of any investigation into the affair, if there is any. 

It doesn't mean the rest of us have to cave to their scrutiny.

The dog was within a fence. Animal Control did not charge the owner because the dog was contained. If the dog was running loose and the cop shot the dog dead, I would blame the owner 100% as I have done on many threads and have taken my knocks for doing so. 

But if the dog IS contained on the owner's property, then shooting the dog or trying to shoot the dog should be questioned.

When you take a group of individuals and put them above question, then you set up an atmosphere that caters to abuses of power. I find that attitude -- that LEOs should be held above scrutiny, except by other LEOs, or eyewitnesses -- by LEOs much more disturbing than an officer who shot himself in the foot.


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## Betty

boomer11 said:


> Scrutinizing is what makes America so great. Without the ability to question people who hold power we might as well be China.
> 
> Cops should be trained to ignore what the public thinks. Just like athletes ignore a whole bunch of fans talking crap. Everyone that serves the public gets unfairly scrutinized. Every president gets scrutinized for 4 years. You can't make everyone happy.


Actually I prefer a police force that is sensitive to public opinion.


----------



## LoveEcho

CassandGunnar said:


> Selzer, next time you need help, make sure you call 911.
> In spite of the very few people that share your attitude of contempt for law enforcement, one of us will still show up to assist you.
> Because we're all "like that" too.
> Based on your previous history of posts deriding everything cops do, I'd rather not have your support



We all know how much armchair quarterbacking goes on here. I guess we should all be so lucky as to have the only thing we are judged on be the quantity and quality of dogs we are breeding. I don't envy those whose decisions carry tremendous consequences. 

As the wife of someone who risked his life and was injured to save others but "shouldn't be called a hero" because he signed up for it.... I hope those "others" are never your family members, friends, loved ones. Guys like David kept guys like my husband as safe as possible- they're all heroes. 

Anywho, there's a huge difference between looking at the actions of a public servant with a critical eye and having obvious contempt for them. 
The media is rarely a clear lens through which to evaluate an event. Accountability is good, but so few people ever get all the facts and so many take it so far past a discussion of "was this appropriate given the circumstances?" and into "see?! Something questionable! All cops are evil power hungry jerks!"





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## misslesleedavis1

Here is one guy that does his vespa ing right. Cept he does have case of beer lile he usually does. 

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## CassandGunnar

selzer said:


> While the LEOs on the site, seem to think we should all mind our own business and hold no opinions about a newsworthy event, that is certainly their right, and they may hold their opinions until the end of any investigation into the affair, if there is any.
> 
> It doesn't mean the rest of us have to cave to their scrutiny.
> 
> The dog was within a fence. Animal Control did not charge the owner because the dog was contained. If the dog was running loose and the cop shot the dog dead, I would blame the owner 100% as I have done on many threads and have taken my knocks for doing so.
> 
> But if the dog IS contained on the owner's property, then shooting the dog or trying to shoot the dog should be questioned.
> 
> When you take a group of individuals and put them above question, then you set up an atmosphere that caters to abuses of power. I find that attitude -- that LEOs should be held above scrutiny, except by other LEOs, or eyewitnesses -- by LEOs much more disturbing than an officer who shot himself in the foot.


And like quite a few other people, I have posted no opinions about what happened in this case because I don't have enough facts to form an opinion.
You seem to take media reports as gospel and that's even more scary to me.
If the LEO was wrong, they should be disciplined, but how about giving them the same rights and due process you would expect if you were accused of wrongdoing?
I don't want to work with any trigger happy partners.


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## Betty

To the LEO on the board------how much departmental review and scrutiny is this officer facing?

I know here I think they are put an automatic leave or at minimum taken off the street any time a weapon is discharged.


----------



## LoveEcho

CassandGunnar said:


> You seem to take media reports as gospel and that's even more scary to me.
> 
> .



Hey, if it's on the news it must be the whole truth and all the facts. Who needs free thinking when there's rabble rousing sensationalism? 



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## misslesleedavis1

LoveEcho said:


> Hey, if it's on the news it must be the whole truth and all the facts. Who needs free thinking when there's rabble rousing sensationalism?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Maybe vice should take these things on. 

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## CassandGunnar

Depends on the agency, but there is normally an administrative leave when a firearm is discharged.
The only exception in most agencies is if you are dispatching a wounded animal.
This would almost certainly be reviewed in most agencies I know of.


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## boomer11

I just find it funny someone who's suppose to be proficient with a gun shot himself. Good thing it was only a dog and not an assailant running at him. 

IF there was a fence between them then the cop deserved it. If there wasn't then an innocent dog was saved. Happy ending if you ask me. 

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## KatsMuse

selzer said:


> *While the LEOs on the site, seem to think we should all mind our own business and hold no opinions *about a newsworthy event, that is certainly their right, and they may hold their opinions until the end of any investigation into the affair, if there is any.
> 
> It doesn't mean the rest of us have to cave to their scrutiny.


Sue, 
If you are referring to ME ...Please read my entire original post again.
And then, please read the remarks YOU MADE in response (in blue) to my original post...

On voicing opinions, (yours or anyone else's) perhaps you forgot those statements I made and neglected to respond to these parts? Or they weren't important? 
(I've snipped it for your convenience/reference)

_"*Since everyone else is giving their opinion...I'll give you mine.
And I know my opinion won't change anyone's mind or attitude.

We are all entitled to our opinions. 

...And yes, I'll investigate my own officers for any complaint or wrong-doing, in a heartbeat!

...It's your opinion and you are entitled to it.*"_

No where in that post did I say anyone should mind their own business.
Nor did I mention that ANYONE shouldn't have an opinion.
I simply voiced MY own opinion. As others have.

To be clear, No where in my post did I defend this officer nor this incident.
Not enough facts for me to make a conclusive decision, one way or another.

I never stated that the 'current dog affairs' section be shut down either.
I actually like that section.

Kat


----------



## KatsMuse

LoveEcho said:


> We all know how much armchair quarterbacking goes on here. I guess we should all be so lucky as to have the only thing we are judged on be the quantity and quality of dogs we are breeding. I don't envy those whose decisions carry tremendous consequences.
> 
> As the wife of someone who risked his life and was injured to save others but "shouldn't be called a hero" because he signed up for it.... I hope those "others" are never your family members, friends, loved ones. Guys like David kept guys like my husband as safe as possible- they're all heroes.
> 
> *Anywho, there's a huge difference between looking at the actions of a public servant with a critical eye and having obvious contempt for them. *
> The media is rarely a clear lens through which to evaluate an event. Accountability is good, but so few people ever get all the facts and so many take it so far past a discussion of "was this appropriate given the circumstances?" and into "see?! Something questionable! All cops are evil power hungry jerks!"
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Many thanks to your husband (and you) for your service.
Great post! 

Kat


----------



## selzer

There is NEVER enough information if the story is about an LEO. 

Never. 

Never. 

But no Kate, it wasn't you, or maybe not all you, it was the moderator who isn't all that moderate, who seems to like to pound on me, but that's ok, because he's a moderator, and they can do what they like. And maybe one of the other people who claims to be an LEO and anyone else who suggested we should not have an opinion if we hadn't walked in their shoes, if we aren't an LEO. That's crazy. 

If you aren't an EE, then you shouldn't be able to say you don't like the way your microwave is designed? Nuts. If you aren't a farmer you have no business having an opinion on how beef critters are treated -- crazy. You do not need to be a farmer to disagree with how veal-calves are raised, or how chickens are raised. You might not know everything there is to know about everything about the subject if you haven't actually raised veal-calves or chickens, but you can still have an opinion about it. 

And it doesn't have to be an opinion totally void of any knowledge whatsoever, which David likes to suggest. Just because someone is not a doctor doesn't mean they do not know their mother ought to have a colonoscopy. Our experiences in life often uniquely qualify us for much of what we face in life, even if we are not in a helping profession or medical profession or teaching profession. 

I think we should treat threads that involve LEOs like threads that involve any other type of person. We can make opinions based on the information that we are given, or we can choose not to make any opinions at all. But we should not single one type of person out to be above all that.


----------



## selzer

CassandGunnar said:


> And like quite a few other people, I have posted no opinions about what happened in this case because I don't have enough facts to form an opinion.
> You seem to take media reports as gospel and that's even more scary to me.
> If the LEO was wrong, they should be disciplined, but how about giving them the same rights and due process you would expect if you were accused of wrongdoing?
> I don't want to work with any trigger happy partners.


Are ordinary people given any rights or due process on this forum when accused of wrongdoing? I really don't think so. People tend to agree with the authorities when there is a report about any wrong doing. No one waits around for the rest of the story before speaking their mind about the information they have however incomplete. And if you suggest that there must be more to the story, you are attacked and people say, "pictures don't lie." Waiting for the rest of the story is only asked for and expected in cases involving LEOs. With LEOs, even with video clips, we are told that there is not enough information. There is never enough information. And pictures do indeed lie -- that pit bull wanted to eat that cop, you could just tell in its beady shark-eyes, it wanted to eat some cop today. 

And how is having an opinion about whether or not shooting a dog was necessary not allowing an LEO their due process? Really? We are not the judge and jury. 

The LEO may have only been drawing his weapon because he wanted it out and ready in case the dog was going to attack, and had never intended to shoot the dog. Maybe. 

I am glad that the dog didn't die, and that the officer has not been bitten by the dog. It's too bad he got shot. But that doesn't mean that his handling of this should go without scrutiny.


----------



## selzer

CassandGunnar said:


> Selzer, next time you need help, make sure you call 911.
> In spite of the very few people that share your attitude of contempt for law enforcement, one of us will still show up to assist you.
> Because we're all "like that" too.
> Based on your previous history of posts deriding everything cops do, I'd rather not have your support


I don't want your support. Didn't ask for it. But you're WRONG about one thing. I almost always back up the cop when it comes to shooting dogs. Almost always. And I usually take a LOT of flack for it. Because almost always the dogs are loose and menacing and I feel it is the owner's fault and problem if the dog gets shot. 

Of course when Bear-Bear got shot in the dog park by an LEO -- I wasn't on his side at all. It was a dog park! We most of us manage to break up dog fights without pulling a gun and shooting a dog. A dog that was a regular in the park, and hadn't actually engaged with the LEOs dog. The LEO who was there for recreation with his dog. 

But most of the other incidents I have been on the other side of the fence. This time, I am on the side of the dog and owner, because the dog was contained, and the the dog did not attack and the dog seemed pretty friendly in the video. That doesn't mean I think the cop got what he deserved as some said, or that he is like Barny on the Andy Griffith Show with his one bullet, or that it was funny. Frankly, I don't ever think it is funny when people get hurt. That doesn't mean I am on the cop's side, though. 

I am sorry that I don't think that people are heroes just because they choose law enforcement as a profession. That goes for the military as well. I know too many people who went into the military because otherwise they would have gone to jail. Not sure if they do that nowadays. But they used to. And not all the people in the military see any action at all. My brother was in for 5 years, and other than toting a gun around during the time of the nightclub bombing in Germany, he didn't see any action. 

My uncle was a cop. And several were military, as was my brother. I do not see them as heroes, just for being in the military. Most of those uncles saw active duty during wars or what was called police actions -- yes, that is worthy of respect.


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## David Winners

Dunning Kruger in full effect.

Keep going selzer. You're proving my point.

David Winners


----------



## Sarah~

I admire people who would voluntarily apply for a job where they might be killed to protect other people. I think no matter what they did before, that says a lot about that person. My stepdad was a marine before he was a cop, my grandpa was in the air force in Vietnam and my boyfriend's cousin was in the army after he got out of jail and went to Iraq. People make mistakes that's why even if they were in trouble before it to me they are still heroes for joining and that's also how I feel about this story. I think the cop made a mistake, I don't feel like he should have pulled a gun but he could otherwise be a very good cop.


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## selzer

David Winners said:


> Dunning Kruger in full effect.
> 
> Keep going selzer. You're proving my point.
> 
> David Winners


Moderators in need of moderation -- is this not a personal attack? Isn't that against the rules? Or are some people above rules? And above being questioned?


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## David Winners

What did I say that was derogatory?

David Winners


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## selzer

David Winners said:


> What did I say that was derogatory?
> 
> David Winners


 The *Dunning-Kruger effect*, named after David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University, occurs where people fail to adequately assess their level of competence — or specifically, their _in_competence — at a task and thus consider themselves _much more competent than everyone else_. This lack of awareness is attributed to their lower level of competence robbing them of the ability to critically analyse their performance, leading to a significant overestimate of themselves. Put more crudely, they're *too stupid to realize they're stupid*. 



It was derogatory, and to pretend it was not is ridiculous. I don't call people names here, assess their intelligence, or their sanity.


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## CassandGunnar

Judging all LEO's based on the actions of a few bad cops would be like judging all breeders based on those who are BYB, turning out litter after litter from untitled, untested dogs.


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## sparra

CassandGunnar said:


> Judging all LEO's based on the actions of a few bad cops would be like judging all breeders based on those who are BYB, turning out litter after litter from untitled, untested dogs.


Happens on here all the time......BUT ........not by selzer.......


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## volcano

On the internet is about the only place cops can be judged. They have such great lawyers with the union that they get away with alot of stuff they shouldnt in real life. Wed never hear about it if he didnt shoot himself.


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## Dainerra

seeing as one of our local police chiefs is now under investigation by the FBI for beating a suspect, then the Mayor bailed said chief out of jail and chief went right back to work and moved into the Mayor's home for supervision, and the officers who gave testimony to the FBI is still working there (finally the chief is on paid leave after a horrible public outcry), yes I believe that public scrutiny is good.

I also spent years married to an officer and I know that there are bad apples out there. I also know that in a lot of places, the only requirement for being able to shoot amounts to hitting somewhere on the target 6 times at a distance of less than 10 feet, no I don't have much faith in them when it comes to shooting.
In a case several years ago, they surrounded the car of a wanted fugitive who had just killed a cop. Almost 2 dozen officers emptied their clips, only 6 bullets even hit the car! Suspect killed the woman with him and himself. 

So, yes, I think that judging is going to depend on your area and your history with the cops. These problems that are the largest part of the reason that my husband left the force (though the pay so crappy we qualified for food stamps would be another reason)


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## JakodaCD OA

CassandGunnar said:


> Judging all LEO's based on the actions of a few bad cops would be like judging all breeders based on those who are BYB, turning out litter after litter from untitled, untested dogs.


 
I think the above sums it up in a nutshell (as my dad would have said


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## sparra

Dainerra said:


> (though the pay so crappy we qualified for food stamps would be another reason)


I don't know what food stamps are but assuming some kind of welfare ????
That just seems absurd to me......our police are paid a very respectable wage for the work they do......maybe paying them more would improve competency.......sheesh....what a kick in the guts to be paid so little......why is that ?????


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## JakodaCD OA

sparra- food stamps here, are if a person/family makes say, poverty level income or no income, they can apply for assistance..they get an allotted amount each month to spend on food..

The police in my area are paid a pretty darn good wage plus benefits, (I have a friend who's son is a state police officer), so I guess it depends on the area.


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## LaRen616

Twyla said:


> Just a random question....
> 
> Who has their front yard fenced in - including the path to the front door? How do you make it safe for those who want to knock on your front door? Keep in mind those who are approaching your door won't know if your dog will attack or not.


My front yard is fenced in and the gate has a padlock on it. No one can get through my front yard unless they want to jump the fence, my backyard is also fenced in and padlocked. So my whole yard/house is fenced in and padlocked. No one needs to knock on my door, especially in my neighborhood.


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## carmspack

did he draw the gun because of the dog or for other reasons - some action behind the curtain that aroused extra caution, or a history of the occupants . More to the story?


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## Nigel

sparra said:


> I don't know what food stamps are but assuming some kind of welfare ????
> That just seems absurd to me......our police are paid a very respectable wage for the work they do......maybe paying them more would improve competency.......sheesh....what a kick in the guts to be paid so little......why is that ?????


The police here are paid pretty well with nice retirement and there is no shortage of applicants either.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue - This is true. I've been involved in some of the other threads and recall clearly you backing the officer's actions. 

Guys, in general, I don't see anyone *really* taking a black or white all or nothing stance on this. No one is saying all cops are bad or all cops are good.

What I am seeing is people trying to pigeon hole each other......sort of like what's happening in the e collar threads. 

Those ecollar threads, dog bit kid and cop shot dog threads seem to have this happen a lot.




selzer said:


> I don't want your support. Didn't ask for it. But you're WRONG about one thing. *I almost always back up the cop when it comes to shooting dogs. *Almost always. And I usually take a LOT of flack for it. Because almost always the dogs are loose and menacing and I feel it is the owner's fault and problem if the dog gets shot.
> 
> Of course when Bear-Bear got shot in the dog park by an LEO -- I wasn't on his side at all. It was a dog park! We most of us manage to break up dog fights without pulling a gun and shooting a dog. A dog that was a regular in the park, and hadn't actually engaged with the LEOs dog. The LEO who was there for recreation with his dog.
> 
> But most of the other incidents I have been on the other side of the fence. This time, I am on the side of the dog and owner, because the dog was contained, and the the dog did not attack and the dog seemed pretty friendly in the video. That doesn't mean I think the cop got what he deserved as some said, or that he is like Barny on the Andy Griffith Show with his one bullet, or that it was funny. Frankly, I don't ever think it is funny when people get hurt. That doesn't mean I am on the cop's side, though.
> 
> I am sorry that I don't think that people are heroes just because they choose law enforcement as a profession. That goes for the military as well. I know too many people who went into the military because otherwise they would have gone to jail. Not sure if they do that nowadays. But they used to. And not all the people in the military see any action at all. My brother was in for 5 years, and other than toting a gun around during the time of the nightclub bombing in Germany, he didn't see any action.
> 
> My uncle was a cop. And several were military, as was my brother. I do not see them as heroes, just for being in the military. Most of those uncles saw active duty during wars or what was called police actions -- yes, that is worthy of respect.


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## sparra

So why do some say that they are paid very poorly........surely there wouldn't be a huge discrepancy between states???

Agree Gwen.......selzer has often been on the side of the officer in many of these types of threads.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's my understanding (and I admit it's just from having interacted and being friends with police in different parts of the country) but generally it seems police in bigger more metropolitan depts. do get better pay.

I know the deputy sheriffs in our po-dunk semi-rural corner of the world get less then $30K and with a family and a couple of kids now-a-days that's not much at all.



Nigel said:


> The police here are paid pretty well with nice retirement and there is no shortage of applicants either.


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## Gwenhwyfair

There is a huge discrepancy not only between states but from municipality to municipality.




sparra said:


> So why do some say that they are paid very poorly........surely there wouldn't be a huge discrepancy between states???


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## sparra

JakodaCD OA said:


> sparra- food stamps here, are if a person/family makes say, poverty level income or no income, they can apply for assistance..they get an allotted amount each month to spend on food..


Thanks


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

I bet for you reading some of these threads is perplexing given it sounds like Australia has more a level and consistent way of training and paying their police, is that correct?



sparra said:


> So why do some say that they are paid very poorly........surely there wouldn't be a huge discrepancy between states???
> 
> Agree Gwen.......selzer has often been on the side of the officer in many of these types of threads.


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## LaRen616

CassandGunnar said:


> Judging all LEO's based on the actions of a few bad cops would be like judging all breeders based on those who are BYB, turning out litter after litter from untitled, untested dogs.


:thumbup:


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## sparra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There is a huge discrepancy not only between states but from municipality to municipality.


Much different to here then........

Sounds like it is very different Gwen.........1st year graduates are on around $55000 then up to around $70000 after a few years so reasonable.......they have it a bit safer over here too.......not many people carrying guns over here


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## Gwenhwyfair

...and as you posted earlier it would logically follow those variances in pay and training is going to affect competency which in turn will create more negative perceptions regarding the police. I guess you could say we here in the U.S. are collectively shooting ourselves in the feet. 





sparra said:


> Much different to here then........


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## sparra

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...and as you posted earlier it would logically follow those variances in pay and training is going to affect competency which in turn will create more negative perceptions regarding the police. I guess you could say we here in the U.S. are collectively shooting ourselves in the feet.


Haha......scuse the pun......and with that I'm off to bed......enjoy your Monday......it was a good day


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## boomer11

selzer said:


> There is NEVER enough information if the story is about an LEO.
> 
> Never.
> 
> Never.
> 
> But no Kate, it wasn't you, or maybe not all you, it was the moderator who isn't all that moderate, who seems to like to pound on me, but that's ok, because he's a moderator, and they can do what they like. And maybe one of the other people who claims to be an LEO and anyone else who suggested we should not have an opinion if we hadn't walked in their shoes, if we aren't an LEO. That's crazy.
> 
> If you aren't an EE, then you shouldn't be able to say you don't like the way your microwave is designed? Nuts. If you aren't a farmer you have no business having an opinion on how beef critters are treated -- crazy. You do not need to be a farmer to disagree with how veal-calves are raised, or how chickens are raised. You might not know everything there is to know about everything about the subject if you haven't actually raised veal-calves or chickens, but you can still have an opinion about it.
> 
> And it doesn't have to be an opinion totally void of any knowledge whatsoever, which David likes to suggest. Just because someone is not a doctor doesn't mean they do not know their mother ought to have a colonoscopy. Our experiences in life often uniquely qualify us for much of what we face in life, even if we are not in a helping profession or medical profession or teaching profession.
> 
> I think we should treat threads that involve LEOs like threads that involve any other type of person. We can make opinions based on the information that we are given, or we can choose not to make any opinions at all. But we should not single one type of person out to be above all that.


Good post. Good old David always thinks just because people aren't doing a certain job that they lack common sense. 

Also very naive to think people become Cops or join the military because they all want to serve. Some just think it's a good job without having to get a higher education.


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## Twyla

Wow. 

Disagreements are expected, even wanted and debated but the attacks that are on this thread, from so many directions?


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## KatsMuse

Twyla said:


> Wow.
> 
> Disagreements are expected, even wanted and debated but the attacks that are on this thread, from so many directions?


I'll agree with this. 
This thread has run it's course and gone WAY off topic.


Kat


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## Nigel

selzer said:


> My brother was in for 5 years, and other than toting a gun around during the time of the nightclub bombing in Germany, he didn't see any action.


Was this the LaBelle disco bombing? Did your brother serve in Berlin? I was an MP there (287th), came in shortly after this happened. Berlin was a good experience overall, we patrolled the US sector from a combined police station with the polizei, unique situation at the time.

Sorry off topic, just curious.


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## Brando & Julietta's Dad

I wonder who dragged this thread off topic?


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