# Sable Coat - Original Is It?



## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Hi All,

My breeder has indicated on my papers that our puppy has a black and red coat; no mention of the sable. When I made a thread here almost everyone said the puppy was sable.

To be classified as a sable, I thought all hairs were supposed to be bicolor? If you look at the body of our puppy, he looks identical to a black and tan/red at the puppy stage; the only clearly sable parts on him is his head, pencil ingredients on the toes, and some of the hair on his legs where the black meets the tan has bicolor hairs.

Can someone explain this? As far as my research goes, you're either one or the other, combinations of the two are not possible. I know sables can be patterned, but even then their hairs are bicolored.

I'll share some pictures.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

The title was supposed to say "Sable Coat - Or Is It?". Autocorrect..... apologies


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Still looks sable to me.Look closely at the guard hairs rather than the puppy fuzz.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Hi Dogma13, can you clarify what gaurd hairs are?


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Does that mean when the puppy loses his puppy coat his hairs will grow back two-toned? Or is my understanding of sable skewed?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it's really hard to tell when you are looking at puppy coat. For example, patterned sables look black/tan (black/red, whatever) at birth. and only when they are full grown and you see the sable saddle do you know that they are a patterned sable.

Even full sable puppies don't look sable with their puppy coat.
puppy coat 

adult coat


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Wow, that's so cool!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Guard hairs are the hairs that lie on top over the fuzzy undercoat.Puppy fur is so fine and silky it's hard to see the individual hairs.In your pictures the top of his head looks like you may more easily see the individual hairs?? He's certainly a handsome little guy!


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Ah yes! Makes sense. The puppy coat can be deceiving then! I figured my dog had the head of a sable and the body of a black and tan.... lol. Thank you for the clarification!


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

This is a tricky one to me.... I would put my money on a pattern sable. What color were the parents? If neither parent was sable then it must be a black and tan. I want to guess one parent was Blake and tan and the other was sable?


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Just my opinion, looks black and red. Looks exactly like my puppy did at that age and she is black and red. She has a big bitch stripe though and all the hairs on her bitch stripe are sabled. She has the lighter colored "wings" up by her shoulders as well. Edit: Nvm looked at some of your old threads, the mom looks like a patterned sable . It's probably sable then


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

were either of the parents sable?


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Dam was sable. Sire was pure black. Both long coats. The sire also has a long pedigree of sables.

Also, if I look closely even his cream hairs have a little bit of black on the tip it's just not as drastic


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

dranseth said:


> Dam was sable. Sire was pure black. Both long coats. The sire also has a long pedigree of sables.


I am not sure that that combo sable to black can produce a Black and Tan. Someone better with genetics????


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dam could have been a black and tan carrier which would be dominant to black.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> dranseth said:
> 
> 
> > Dam was sable. Sire was pure black. Both long coats. The sire also has a long pedigree of sables.
> ...


Would the sire have any impact on coat in this instance in this instance?

Seems like this definitely is not cut and dry! I knew it


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

For the sire to be black, he must inherent a black gene from both parents. Black is recessive so his puppies' colors will be contingent on the dam, which in this case is sable. I would suspect the dam is also a patterned sable. Do you have any pictures?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dam could have been a black and tan carrier which would be dominant to black.


I found that cool chart online. So if dam had a Black and Tan parent and was an aw+at then the puppy would be at+a so a Black and Tan? Genetics is cool but not my strong point. Lol.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Yes, if the dam carried black and tan, when bred to a black, she could produce a black and tan.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Yes. The sires sire and dam were both sables however carriers of the black gene. But again would the sire have any impact on coat for example how dark of a sable he might be?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

What color were the dams parents? 

I believe there are some of the mind that a black dog can improve pigment. I don't know if that true though.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think I asked that recently of a breeder on this forum and was told maybe, maybe not. It depends. 

I think patterns, modifiers and other foreign concepts, (at least to me), play roles in color and markings too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It could be a patterned sable. The face looks sable. I am not familiar with sables though.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Yeah, it's a weird situation to me. Head looks sable, body looks black and red/tan. It's weird. Time will tell for sure. Regardless he is amazing.

As far as the dam's parents, I never looked into it. I just know they were long coats. When I visited the breeder they showed me however I was overloaded with information. They had a lot of beautiful dogs there I was in awe.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

pup looks like a patterned sable.

how long has the breeder been breeding?? despite what we think, I'd probably be inclined to trust the breeders judgement assuming they're experienced and familiar with their lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that pup is a long coat sable . 
Here is one of mine when he was a baby -- Sumo 
Carmspack Sumo
Carmspack Sumo

Carmspack Sumo & Vinny-sumo.jpg

Carmspack Sumo & Vinny-sumo2.jpg

Carmspack Vinny
Carmspack Agro


Carmspack Sumo & Vinny-vinny.jpg

his sire was a long coat black 
his dam was a sable.

here is one of his progeny Carmspack Gus | Modern Dog magazine 

sire of gus and dam of gus both sable 

you are one or the other -- genetically a sable or a black and tan or a black 
you can not have a sable head and a black and tan body


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Awesome. Thanks for the info!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> it's really hard to tell when you are looking at puppy coat. For example, patterned sables look black/tan (black/red, whatever) at birth. and only when they are full grown and you see the sable saddle do you know that they are a patterned sable.
> 
> Even full sable puppies don't look sable with their puppy coat.
> puppy coat
> ...


Can you explain what is being demonstrated by pulling back the coat in the third picture?


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Nigel, I believe they were showing that the strands of hair are two-toned.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

carmspack said:


> that pup is a long coat sable .
> Here is one of mine when he was a baby -- Sumo
> Carmspack Sumo
> Carmspack Sumo
> ...


Gus is such a handsome dog!


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Just wanted to share these pictures. This is not my puppy, however, he looks very similar. He turned out to be black and tan.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

And here are some close ups after his bath today


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Nigel said:


> Can you explain what is being demonstrated by pulling back the coat in the third picture?


just showing how the hairs are banded


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> just showing how the hairs are banded


That's what I thought. Our male is a patterned sable, he's also coated and he looks like a blk and tan. Our female was said to be sable and her coat looks just like your third pic, but I dont think she is, her coat just kind of mimics it for lack of a better discription. I can see how it can get confusing for some folks.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would guess your pup looks like a pattern sable which looks very much like a Black and Tan with a saddle.Very cute puppy and so soft and fluffy! Max's dad was a patterned sable he looked much like a Black and Tan with a blanket saddle. Max looked like a Black and Tan when he was a pup then he trained into a dark sable- more like a bicolor pattern but sable.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Thanks Jenny. Moment of truth should be soon. Doesn't a sables coat go really light around 4 months?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Nigel said:


> That's what I thought. Our male is a patterned sable, he's also coated and he looks like a blk and tan. Our female was said to be sable and her coat looks just like your third pic, but I dont think she is, her coat just kind of mimics it for lack of a better discription. I can see how it can get confusing for some folks.


do you have a picture of her? a dog is either sable or not. the only thing that looks sable but isn't is a bitch stripe. At least, all I can think of off the top of my head


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

This pup looks similar to mine. At 4 months they progressed into the second picture.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Neither one of my sables ever got that light, but they did darken some starting around four months.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Here are some more pictures of my guy when he was younger.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dranseth said:


> Thanks Jenny. Moment of truth should be soon. Doesn't a sables coat go really light around 4 months?


Basing on my experience Max went into the light phase at 9 weeks old seemingly overnight. He then gradually darkened up and then went through another not so drastic light phase at 7 months of age. He then darkened up. He slightly lightens or darkens depending on the seasons now. 

Max in photo- 9 weeks, 13 weeks, 7 months, 12 months and 22 months.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Are the other pups in the litter similar coloring?


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> Are the other pups in the litter similar coloring?


There were two others similar to mine, but not as dark. Here are a couple pictures I snapped of the last two pups left (not the ones that are similar to mine)

There were two clear-cut sables in the bunch as per the breeders.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Regardless, I do not care either way! I just wanted to know for sure. There seems to be discrepancy among the German Shepard community. I think this is a perfect example that sometimes it is not clear-cut.

EDIT: when I look back at my previous thread, not a single person voted for black and tan; everyone thought he was sable. Now? Not so much.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Your pup looks like a sable to me. You can see all the lightness under the fur. Can't wait to see upcoming pictures!!!


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm going to have pictures done at 10 weeks, 14 weeks, 16 weeks, then 5 months, 6 months, and so on so forth.

Thank you all for your feedback!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Carmen says sable, so that's good enough for me. lol!

All I can say is that your pup is adorable. Can't wait to watch him grow.


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Went for shots today. 10 weeks old here. This is a picture the veterinary clinic snapped on our way out. Digging his facial markings a lot.... have a good night all!


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Hey All,

Not sure if this is confirmation or not, however, I have noticed long coarse hairs (assuming the beginning of his adult coat) sprouting up all over Nitro's body, and so I decided to investigate... I cut one of those hairs off as close to the skin as possible (was difficult due to dense puppy coat) and I analyzed the hair; the hair was approximately 3 inches, 2.25 inches of black on the outside, and about 0.75 inches of white/tan/silver on the inside closest to his skin. Is this further confirmation of sable coat?

A black and tan would not have this, correct?


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

likely a sable. If it was along the back though, black and tan dogs can have banded hairs. My female is black and red but her whole back is a bitch stripe/sabled hairs that have bands. Genetically she is not sable. You can see the light peeking through here when she was young


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Ah. It was from the back. I will check one from the side tomorrow.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

mego said:


> likely a sable. If it was along the back though, black and tan dogs can have banded hairs. My female is black and red but her whole back is a bitch stripe/sabled hairs that have bands. Genetically she is not sable. You can see the light peeking through here when she was young


this is called a bitch stripe. but it won't be found on a puppy as young as the OPs. It generally starts showing up between 1 and 2 years old. 
This pup is just starting to get the adult coat, which first comes in along the back.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Dainerra said:


> this is called a bitch stripe. but it won't be found on a puppy as young as the OPs. It generally starts showing up between 1 and 2 years old.
> This pup is just starting to get the adult coat, which first comes in along the back.


I know it's called a bitch stripe but my pup had light whitish coming in with some of her first adult hairs and the photo I posted of her with a lot visibly showing was 6 months, so It can be earlier.

I think the puppy sounds sable from the OP and the parents pictures, but I just don't think looking at a hair along the back is a good way to determine that in a pup, that was all> I was just answering the part whether or not it's a good diagnostic tool


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

mego,

Alright, but is the white fur on your puppy part of the same strand of hair as the black fur, or are they separate strands?

Also, I looked again today, and our pup is only getting his adult coat on the spine and his tail thus far.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

dranseth said:


> mego,
> 
> Alright, but is the white fur on your puppy part of the same strand of hair as the black fur, or are they separate strands?
> 
> Also, I looked again today, and our pup is only getting his adult coat on the spine and his tail thus far.


My dog has it in the same strands . It's just an example though of how it can appear , your pup looks pretty sable . I will pm you a pic of my dogs back fur


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## dranseth (Dec 31, 2015)

Hey all, here is confirmation of his coat. He is most definitely a sable. Something odd about his case is that the black in his coat never lightened up before his adult fur started coming in. Has thay happened to anyone?


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