# This is too complicated and I am about to throw in the towel..



## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

I have a few questions to see if I can swing this ..I really want to feed raw but am having trouble getting the pup's diet to the point where it is balanced without giving him the rocket squirts. 

1) Is a whole chicken ground up a complete meal? Gizzards , bones , and all? If not , what should I add?

2) Are chicken organs considered organ meat or muscle meat? He seems to be super sensitive to anything beef , including green tripe . If chicken organs are not OM , what can I give that is not beef related?

3)I can only find canned sardines with salt added. If I rinse , can I give that? And what is it considered? ( RMB?) 

4)If a chicken drumstick is very meaty , does it's total weight still count as RMB , or is some of it MM?

I keep finding various advice on amounts..He is about 70 pounds ..how much weight per day should be RMB , OM , and MM 

He has been on chicken drumsticks and thighs with a little bit of gizzard and pumpkin for a week plus now and he is finally having normal stool. This can't be a complete diet ..but I am so not in a position to deal with liquid squirts and agonizing of what to give. 

My 2 year old who is disabled and still crawls has had the liquid poops for a week now ..it is coinciding with Alvin getting chicken bones and getting the rawness on his paws when he works the bone ( which I take the meat off to try and eliminate that ) ..before he was on the pure grind . And was constipated on it . And getting the runs from the tripe..hence going to plain chicken quarters to start from the basics again.

Honestly ..this is my last try at this ..too much going on in my life to feed complicated , the premade just add water stuff is way too expensive ..I can swing the grinds , just very confused as to what makes it a complete diet.

And quite frankly I am done with green tripe. I don't care if it makes the dog fly and do algebra in his head..it is just too messy and smelly.

As you can tell I am mildly frustrated lol I really believe in BARF diets , but with 2 disabled kids 5 and 2 , and now my MIL visiting from abroad fell and broke her back on my steps and will be convalescing with us for quite some time ..well , I guess I am stretched a little too thin . Maybe I should just go back to TOTW and revisit raw next year or something :/


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Sometimes the juice is not worth the squeeze. If the dehydrated raw or prepared raw is too costly, then go back to a kibble your dog will tolerate.

With what you've got going on, feeding the dog should be simplified. Sorry you have so much stress right now!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh...I am so sorry things are going so rough for you. I can say that I too have had trouble with raw. I tried it and went back to kibble for a time. I am now back with raw ( my girl is allergic to chicken). Don't feel badly if you feel for a while you need to go back to a good quality kibble. Not all dogs thrive on raw. Plus, given your other life troubles kibble may be a better choice for the time being. If you want to continue with raw there are many here who can help you. Hopefully they will chime in soon to help you. 
Best of luck to you!


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## Flutter (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm no expert but here are my thoughts based on the reading I've done. 

1) A whole chicken, including organs, and ground up is a complete meal. 

2) Chicken organs are OM but it also depends on the organ. Heart and gizzard are considered MM. You could also look at pork/boar/lamb organs. Depends what's available in your area. 

3) I've found frozen fish but my dog won't eat them. I buy a whole ground salmon mix and that's considered a complete meal from what I understand. 

4) I feed ground mixes (supplemented with RMBs, eggs, etc) and can't answer this question. See if there are any local companies that offer ground mixes. There are more than 5 in my area that offer AFFORDABLE foods but you won't find their food in a regular pet store. Try Google or see if there are any raw dog food stores in your area or try one of the more expensive pet boutiques. 

My dog also weighs 70lbs and is super active. From what I've read he should be getting close to 2lbs/day but he's doing really well on 1lb/day plus some training treats. We assess BCS weekly and adjust food slightly if necessary.


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks for the support  

I'll try a few things people throw at me..I have until October 22nd before I put in my next month's supply order from our co - op ..I'll hang out and wait for suggestions , but you are both right. I won't beat myself up if I have to go back to quality kibble for a bit .


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

Flutter said:


> I'm no expert but here are my thoughts based on the reading I've done.
> 
> 1) A whole chicken, including organs, and ground up is a complete meal.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking over feeding may have been an issue too...I was giving him close to 2 pounds per day using 60-20-20 ..now I have him down to basics about 1 pound 5 to 8 oz per day of chicken quarters and a hint of gizzard . Stool looks good , but I know that is not a complete diet. 

The other 2 dogs could eat a truck tire for dinner and be fine lol ..it is the 7 month old GSD that is having these issues.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Loose stools can be due to over feeding and can also be due to too much OM. 20% organ is a lot and more than most diets have. If you're going with 20% I would make that the eventual goal and start lower, at about 5-10%, and increase it gradually over time.

Another thing to keep in mind is that with raw the key is balance *over time*. You don't need every single meal, or even every day or every couple of days, to come out in a perfect ratio. There are some things that need to be done ratio wise, such as not overloading the bone or OM in a short period of time of course, but you don't need to stress over perfect balance and ratios every day.

Heart and gizzard are MM. Other organs, such as liver, spleen, kidney, etc.. are OM. Whole poultry with the little organ pouch tucked inside the cavity doesn't usually include all of the organs. So feeding a whole ground chicken, while a balanced meal in terms of MM to RMB, may be short on OM. If beef isn't an option, you can buy chicken livers for cheap at any grocery store. Many of the pre-made grinds offered by raw suppliers also include the organs, so if you're feeding some pre-made you may not need to add any more organ.

As for fish, check into canned mackerel. You'll generally get more bang for your buck than sardines, and it can be found just packed in plain water, not salt, oil or any of the weirdo sauces that sardines often come in. You can also add fish oil capsules to the daily diet, and in doing so get the primary benefit of fish (Omega 3s) without having to worry about tracking down a safe, affordable source of fish to feed.


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

Thanks 

I was feeding him RAAW Energy whole chicken grind. Claims to have the entire chicken ground up as is. That was constipating him..maybe if I add a tiny bit of OM to that ? And a fish oil capsule? 

I was doing 20% just because in research I found that ratio..also saw 80-10-10 ..but if I stick with grinds I should only have to worry about total fed per day since the ratio is there already , right? 

If I go with the grind..what can I do for teeth that does not involve him chewing bone and dropping it on the floor ? Once my 2 year old is not crawling and upright most of the time I won't care. 

Even when I give him bones in a secluded are he steps all in it ..maybe I can feed him bones out on the front lawn..he makes quick work of them so it is not a time consuming thing to supervise his bone eating. It is just hard to let him eat it without getting it on his fur or paws while inside. 

Sorry for thinking out loud lol ..just trying to figure out how to keep doing this. His fur and teeth look awesome ..my boxer mix lost his extra 10 pounds in 3 weeks and looks like an Olympian..my 8 to 10 year old Mastiff is also looking much better as a result. 

So my goal is to keep this up!


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

To those following this thread , thanks so much for your help. I just got an big order of frozen supposedly complete chubs ...and things have evened out in rocket poops and life in general (as they often do) . 

However , my 8 month GSD is probably still not balanced . I give him chicken wings , small amounts of calf liver , some canned mackeral , eggs and shells , and pumpkin. What is glaringly missing? I am going to start intro'ing smears then smudges than lumps of the complete grinds...good plan?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Oisin's Aoire said:


> However , my 8 month GSD is probably still not balanced . I give him chicken wings , small amounts of calf liver , some canned mackeral , eggs and shells , and pumpkin. What is glaringly missing? I am going to start intro'ing smears then smudges than lumps of the complete grinds...good plan?


There's no MM. So yes, you need to add the grinds. If they include sufficient ground bone and OM you can probably cut back on the wings and liver.


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## Oisin's Aoire (Jun 17, 2013)

Great , thanks . My goal is to get him on all grinds with a daily wing thrown in for bone crunching fun . 

I have a turkey/chicken/lamb grind , pure turkey grind , and a whole salmon grind. And some green tripe. All in 2 pound tubes. Real happy with the company .. 295.00 was the cost for more than a 30 days supply for 3 dogs , 130 pounds , 95 pounds , and 70 pound pup. Same price as high end kibble.

Question - his stools are formed now but are always wrapped in a covering of clear/yellowish mucus. No blood . What does that indicate?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My thought about the stools is that the hardness of the stool is cleaning out residual mucus that built up when he was having soft poops. I'd just watch it for a couple of days and see if that clears up.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Chris Wild, so MM would be, for example, boneless chicken breasts or pork loin?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

MM=Muscle meat, regular meat without bone. So yes, boneless chicken breast, pork loin, hamburger, roast. Heart is also MM, though often mistaken for OM.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Chris, thanks. We are in the process of healing Thor's gut and transitioning to raw is the last step. We are almost there.


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