# The retrieve.... oh the retrieve... ;)



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Just looking for some advice on how to perfect the retrieve. First of all, I am working with Stark on this - he is SUPER sensitive when it comes to corrections with me and will shut down if he feels too much pressure (turn away, "not hear" me, start sniffing, jumping on me, etc..). He does however respond well to the e-collar, because I do not believe he thinks the correction is coming from me - this is something that my trainer and I have been working on with him in the past. The e-collar works as a communication tool for us that allows Stark to receive the direction he needs without thinking the stim is coming directly from the handler, thus leaving "me" out of it so that I can re-direct him back to me/the task at hand.

He will wait nicely by my side, I can throw the dumbbell, he has drive for the dumbbell (surprisingly but I did do a lot of back tieing and teasing with the dumbbell in the beginning), will RUN out to retrieve it, come back to me within about a foot and then start play bouncing around me and becomes chewy. I think 'he' thinks his only job is to retrieve it and bring it back?

I have broken this down for him and trained all the steps separately and when I bring him to a front and ask him to hold, he does. He is a bit chewy but I think that is genetic more than training?

I will say that he ENJOYS retrieving more than any other thing he does. He hops out to get the dumbbell or the item (he does a lot of retrieving for my cousin who is in a wheelchair such as pens, books, clothing, shoes, etc.. and just LOVES it!). I don't want to ruin that enthusiasm but am not sure how to teach him to connect the two exercises together; 1- run out get the dumbbell, 2 - come back to a front and hold it nicely.

I have called him in and he just is too excited and will bounce around me. I give a verbal correction or redirection in a more stern tone and he drops it.

I am working 15 hours and on 12 day of a 17 day stretch at work so I am unable to train until the new year with our club right now. I am basically training at night in the mall parking lot or the local park. My sister is exercising the dogs right now for me (she lives with me and is a part time student at University). 

Thanks guys, will try to see if I can get video of the behaviour some time this weekend after work.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would suggest that you go back to the start and reinforce the hold - clicker work for positive - just the hold - sitting in front of you - do it in the house, sitting on the couch, standing anywhere...just the hold and also work on fronts....build muscle memory....

for fronts, have him in plaitz, toe to toe...then bring him up with a 'hier' - over and over without dumbbell - this is a foundation position and you need to have it extremely solid

Lee


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Lee - was wondering about that. I think that is the way to go as well. Appreciate your input!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Will he hold the dumbbell and a sit stay while you move back away from him? Will he hold a dumbbell in the front position? Then, can you call him to you from 6 inches, 12 inches, 2 feet away into the front while he maintains his hold?

I like to teach this part of the retrieve "backwards" -- that is, start with him holding the dumbbell and letting you take it while he sits and then gradually build that until he will do a 20-30 foot recall from a sit stay holding the dumbbell. Get that before putting the retrieve together with the front and presentation. 

While you are teaching this part, I take a break from the thrown part -- unless I am just working on teaching drive and, say, run away when he comes toward you with the dumbbell.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Will he hold the dumbbell and a sit stay while you move back away from him?


Yes, he will and he will sit calmly as well. His hold could be better but it is what it is at this point with him.



> Will he hold a dumbbell in the front position?


Yes, he will.



> Then, can you call him to you from 6 inches, 12 inches, 2 feet away into the front while he maintains his hold?


I haven't done it this close yet, I may need to back some things up and try it closer to me like this. Anymore than 2-3 feet away and he will come to front but drop it.



> I like to teach this part of the retrieve "backwards" -- that is, start with him holding the dumbbell and letting you take it while he sits and then gradually build that until he will do a 20-30 foot recall from a sit stay holding the dumbbell. Get that before putting the retrieve together with the front and presentation.
> 
> While you are teaching this part, I take a break from the thrown part -- unless I am just working on teaching drive and, say, run away when he comes toward you with the dumbbell.


This could work! I am going to try it tomorrow! Thanks so much!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think Christines exercises are a logical next step to the ones I posted....

Lee


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I agree - excited to work with him on this.

We will probably never trial together so we can and will take it slow. I just like him to continue to train and he enjoys retrieving so much that this was our next step in training.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If dropping it before you out him is a problem, I'd heel him around with it in his mouth after he returns to you and randomly out him, not always in the front position. 
I'd also use a #3 dumbbell, it makes chewing difficult...the dog tends to clamp down on a heavier one.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jane - tried that, he will out it if I heel him or ask for another command... I think he needs to understand that he needs to hold it until I ask for him to drop it... he will shove keys and such at me and my cousin as well and drop them in our laps before we ask for an out. Probably us not being consistent with him as well.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know this sounds mean, but have you thumped him under his chin when he outs before the command? That tends to make it clear that he needs to hold it until you tell him to out.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Jane - I can't do much in the way of handler corrections with him, otherwise he will shut down - and not for just the session.... sometimes for days.... I would like to use the e-collar for this but need some assistance as to when I should stim him, etc.

He is VERY handler sensitive and couple that with his weak nerve... poor guy would be ruined... LOL.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Coming from another handler sensitive dog mom, this is what worked for Aiden.

We back chained the retrieve and broke it down into steps. So I started with him in a sit in front of me and had him take it. Then eventually he took it and held for a few seconds with my hands on top and bottom of his muzzle. Then without my hands there. Then I would have him hold it and I would take a step back and then forward, so I would walk into him in a correct front position and he would hold the dumbbell solid and get used to me being in his front. He knows "watch" so I would remind him to do it if he wavered with the head position. Then eventually we did the holding the dumbbell with a sit/stay and a recall to me, gradually increasing the distance. Then I would do sit/stay with dumbbell in between him and I, command "bring" and have him come forward, grab the dumbbell, and do a front. Then I did a sit/stay by my side and I would walk away and place the dumbbell on the ground. I would return and amp him up, send him to "bring" and ask for the front. I never worked on the whole exercise together until he did that perfect 99% of the time 


I never ever EVER allowed him to drop it in the beginning and if he did, it was just "uh uh" and we did it again. Every time he did it correct, I would say "out" before marking with yes. I think that consistency in the beginning helped a lot. He knew that dropping it wasn't an option anymore. 

Hope that helps. I think I have a video somewhere that I can try and find.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Alexis! I think I need to go back to basics and start over for sure. I would love to see the video if you have it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pan can be pretty handler sensitive but I did two sessions of forced "hold" with him (because he was inconsistent taking a dumbbell from me, and also if he had it would drop it or let it loll around in the back of his jaw). It took two quick sessions and he got the point, has never had an issue dropping or holding too soft since then. It can be done even with a sensitive dog as long as it's thought-through beforehand and executed in a way that the dog learns and gets plenty of positive feedback.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am working the retrieve with Elena right now. She is a very compliant dog that is also a bit softer than her sister, but also very quick to understand what I want. I am doing this in two parts right now. In one room I am sitting on the couch, building her up, throwing the DB and she is going out, picking it up and bringing it back to me where I say "out" and take it from her. No formal hold or front. We have progressed to this point starting with her just putting her mouth on the DB. This is not a dog with crazy play/ball drive. 

Then I take her into the kitchen where we are working on the hold. I have done the forced retrieve on 7 dogs and play retrieve on one. I am trying a different approach this time and we are doing a more controlled hold without the force. I have her sit slightly off of center (I don't like to put pressure on the dog in the formal front position), have my left hand in her collar so it can also go up under her jaw. The first times she of course grabbed the DB and then let go and looked at me for the "yes/reward". I just told her to "bring" and when she took it I added hold, got a split second hold, marked it and outed, reward. The left hand comes up and sort of supports the lower jaw so she can't drop the DB easily. Of course, she is a dog, so she has tried to drop the DB, roll it around in her mouth and then just not open her mouth. I tend to use a negative marker (no) and repeat what ever commend I have to. If she spits it out, I tell her "no, bring, hold". If she rolls it to the back, "no, hold" while I move it back to the correct position. When she decides to just look at me and not open her mouth, "bring" is repeated. I did open her mouth twice and put the DB inside. She is now taking the DB, holding it with the support under the jaw (not holding the jaw, but my hand is there), I am just starting to increase the time held, touch the DB with my right hand or stroking her head. Haven't decided where I will go next.

Something I did with Treue (she had a play retrieve) was throw the DB just in front of me (she was on leash), she would pick it up and I would have her carry it while I pushed on the sides, then I would say out before she could drop it. As we progressed I would have her come into front, but would push on the DB as she came in and step back, push on the DB, then out. Eventually I could stand still and push on the DB (the bell part) and she would shove it back at me. Then I added the sit command as I pushed on the DB. I basically used her opposition reflex to hold onto and then push back. Only thing I did not do with her which I wish I had was some formal hold work. Took a long time to get her to not chew the DB. She had a totally quiet mouth by the time we got the 3.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I started the retrieve with Creasy a week ago, the hold is absolute, really like this dog. Will see in a week or so (after 10-15 sessions) how it looks. Will post a video.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

I am working on retrieves with Brenna and have the same issue - her not wanting to bring it back to me close enough. What is working for her is instead of me backing up or giving a correction to come to me - i push her away. Once i started doing this she wants to push back and is coming in closer. Not sure if it will work for you, but was something very simple that is showing alot of progress for us.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks everyone!

I will try to get a video of Stark this weekend. One good thing about Stark is that he picks things up very quickly.

I am going to start the retrieve with Zefra soon too but want to "perfect" it with Stark first.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You have two totally different dogs, so what works for Stark isn't necessarily going to work for Zefra. 
I would do the back-chaining methods with her, and let her know early on that there is no option but to hold, not chew. 
She'll probably pick it up no problem and be a happy enthusiastic retriever. 
I don't think I'd try or worry about perfecting Stark's before you begin her. It'll just frustrate and confuse the end goal for Zefra.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Oh, I didn't mean I would use the same techniques with both dogs... lol.

Just want to finish 1 dog on the retrieve before I start another..


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Zefra has a pretty firm hold already, and has been working the dumbbell for awhile, just got to put things together for her. Waiting to go back to our trainer for that though.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

My opinion (for what it is worth) is that you need to go back and reinforce the hold also. The biggest mistake I see people make is they teach a nice calm hold when the dog is completely out of drive and sitting calmly in front. Then they go outside throw the dumbbell, the dogs drive comes up, they run out grab it, run back and chew like ****....The dog needs to learn to hold firm IN DRIVE.



My current competition dog is VERY handler sensitive also, especially when I am teaching and he doesn't understand....But you do not need a lot of force, just whatever it takes for him to understand that is not what you want (could be just verbal) A correction only needs to be enough to make an impression on the dog...



Sounds like you have taught the hold nicely, now you have to gradually raise the drive and reinforce a calm hold until you get to full drive levels. I do this with a dowel (so not related to DB), as a lot of people do, and after I have a solid hold just calm off the field, then I put the dowel in my vest. After training some obedience (where he is in drive and panting some) I go calm again and have him hold now even though he is panting some and has been in drive. Then I end the set. I do this everyday at the end of obedience for a while. I lengthen the obedience set more and more. Then when he is holding really good when he is more panting and more tired (from longer obedience sets and playing) I incorporate the dowel into the middle of my obedience, I will pull out the dowel, put him in drive for the ball with some misses, and him going crazy to get the ball, then I put the ball behind my back and show him the dowel and say hold. Gradually at first, maybe I just show him the ball, put it away and show him dowel and say hold, click and out comes the ball. Then gradually build to misses and crazy drive. Once he understands, he attacks the dowel and sits calm in front holding calm.... Now you have shown him to get into drive to go out , pick up, come back and then sit calm and hold calm......It becomes much clearer to the dog and produces a much better over all retrieve.... I always get good points with my retrieves. Unfortunately I do not have any videos showing this, but I do have a video where I go next after the dowel work is done and I am working on retrieves where I can reward, the pickup, the fast turn, the fast return and hold.....





 
Hope this helps some

Frank


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Great information, Frank--that makes perfect sense, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about it so clearly.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Franks advice is very good and gave me some good tips that I already started using with my dog on the retrieve today.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

schh3fh2 said:


> My current competition dog is VERY handler sensitive also, especially when I am teaching and he doesn't understand....But you do not need a lot of force, just whatever it takes for him to understand that is not what you want (could be just verbal) A correction only needs to be enough to make an impression on the dog...
> 
> Frank


Now I know where it comes from.


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