# OMG! Should I take him?



## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Ok. So the litter I was following was born, no babies for me. However. Just before they were, I got this amazing opportunity dropped in my lap, but I want some advice here. This is for a shiloh puppy, but please give what you can, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

So both my current breeders who I talked to were excellent, and I became actual friends with them. However, the one litter didn't have anything for me, and the next one isn't going to be able to go home until April 2015, that is, as long as it takes (the dam had a false pregnancy before, but has since had a beautiful litter as her first one). Also, I felt a little doubtful because the sire of that litter was an outcross, but carefully selected to bring new blood in, and the dam is full old line, so the puppies have a lower outcross percentage.

One of my breeders explained this to me (Omg too bad she didn't have a pup for me, she knows EVERYTHING) very thoroughly, and said that the breed was started with too few foundation dogs, and so there were problems happening that were being helped by the new blood, as long as it's done well. She said as long as the outcross percent in a pup is below 12.5%, they're considered full shiloh. 12.5% is considered "Outcross 1", 25% is considered "Outcross 2" and 50% is "Outcross 3". She said that as long as an outcross is "typey" (fits the breed standard and temperament), and the outcross was done carefully, then it shouldn't really be distinguishable to me.

I say all this because I went on the shiloh news blog and found randomly that there was a GORGEOUS boy pup available to go home in a week. He's exactly what I wanted, dark grey sable with a long coat and a little white star on his chest. I called the breeder who listed him on the shiloh website, and I asked her some questions. She was wonderful, I asked her about allergies in her lines, she knew her stuff, she asked me questions too. I asked why he was available, because normally there's a wait list and they don't normally just put a litter up as available. She said that shes mentoring a new breeder starting out (the dams owner, who currently had the puppies), and she was telling her that she can't just advertise locally, she had to get them out there so people know about it. In essence, this new person is just learning the ropes, and in the meantime, they're using her contract and application. 

Now, I didn't know this, but here's the snag. I was talking to my breeder friend who just had the pups that i can't have (lol), and she looked a couple things up in the breeder-viewable database for me. She doesn't want to comment on another breeders program, but she is willing to give me pointers on what I should be asking and objective info about some things. The sire of this puppy is the BROTHER of the very one that is to be used for the litter in April! Fancy that, cool. The mother I have never heard of. They're both shilohs, but both of them are not old line, they have outcross. This puppy is 23.44% outcross, 76.66% shiloh. 

I'm going to ask about the temperament testing, of course, and why they used the out crosses that they did. When my breeder friend did it, she knew EXACTLY where those out crosses were, and why they were there. 
My other beeder friend who is having the litter going home in April met me at a pet expo in Hartford. I didn't know it, but two of her dogs are actually out crosses as well, and one at 25%.

My question, is what do I do?? The breeder with this pup sounds knowledgeable and willing to discuss things with me. I'm going to ask, but my question to you is:

Even if the pup is expected to be "typey", is the outcross too much? Should I bother? I can wait for the other breeding in April, but even then they'll be out crosses of some kind, just less. And I figure, if this is a good pup, why pass? What I want is the look and temperament of a shiloh, I don't give a rats patiootie if it's old line or not, as long as I'm not being ripped off, and he's healthy.

I dunno. The isue isn't with the breeder, she's been great! Just wondering about the % thing and what people here think. The link to the page is below. Im obviously wanting Mr. Blue. Side note, does Mr. Green look shy to you?

Mystical Shilohs


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Snap, you lost me on all the outcross etc., but my question to you is 'what do you want? Are you ready for a winter baby?'. Its hard potty training... if you can do it, and feel confident about what you have learned/been told by your breeder friends, then no one in this forum can make up your mind! Do what you want! . 
Deb
PS congratulations....


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Thanks Deb! I'm willing to brave the arctic at this point, literally I'd do anything lol. I know it's hard, man we had to raise our first foster pup in the winter. Brr! 

I guess I don't know. I feel like I'd basically be getting a mutt, but hey... shilohs were part GSD in the first place, so it's really just new blood I guess. Better new blood than inbred, I suppose.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Shilos are a relatively "new" breed aren't they? As a total dolt so far as pedigrees and breeding programs go, (and someone never intending to breed myself), I would think that with a newly established breed, out-crossing would be expected or you would run the risk of a too-limited gene pool. 
(OK folks weigh in telling me I am nuts...)


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

What are they using now for the outcross? Years ago I was interested in Shilohs and talked right to Tina Barber, the breed founder. Back then they were outcrossing to an imported Shaferhund (which, from Tina's explanation, was supposed to be an old style GSD). I know that sire is definitely not alive today, so what are they using for the outcross, do you know? There were also rumors way back when that Tina used a wolf in her original mix, she almost admitted it to me. At that time she wanted to rehome a breeding bitch she had, but she said she had to be careful where she placed her because of her breeding. At the time I had GSDs and wolf shepherds, and when she heard that she said I would be the perfect home for her. I was working too much back then to take on another dog, so never did get her. But I am curious about the outcross.

Susan


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would wait to get what I really want, instead of being in a hurry and just settling.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Snapdragon said:


> I feel like I'd basically be getting a mutt, but hey...


I don't even know what a shilos are but this sentence speaks volumes.

My question is this- will you be happy with this choice when the other breeding is finally ready? 

Lynn


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> Shilos are a relatively "new" breed aren't they? As a total dolt so far as pedigrees and breeding programs go, (and someone never intending to breed myself), I would think that with a newly established breed, out-crossing would be expected or you would run the risk of a too-limited gene pool.
> (OK folks weigh in telling me I am nuts...)


They were started in the 70's. That's exactly right, both registries are doing out crosses. At the beginning they didn't have enough foundation dogs, and the first few gens suffered for it. There's some issues going on right now, both registries think the other is doing it wrong, but I personally think the ISSDC is nailing it, even though they're not the original group started by Tina. 

The ISSR (the one started by Tina) had four, and the ISSDC has 7 that moved forward. Thats what my breeder friend told me. The ISSR ones are Artus, Orbit, Chani, and Vilk. Samson Woo was the first one who is since gone.
Good question, I don't have all the access I need to know all the things, but I want to look into what exactly they're using.
I'm not sure who ours are, exactly, I only know there are 7. 

And again, it's not really a mater of what I want. As long as it behaves and looks shiloh, new blood doesn't really matter to me, as long as it was done properly and not just in a "hey let's throw this dog in" kind of way. New blood is absolutely important since the breed is still being developed. As I was saying, shilohs started with several breeds incorporating together, so in that sense they're already "mutts", but a great deal of pure breeds today began as crosses too.


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

(Samson Woo was suspected to be a wolf, but from what I gather nobody really knows. Artus is the schaferhund, Chani is part wolf.)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have personally only met 3 shilohs....but everyone of them had hip and/or temperament issues....the only ones I have met have been from the original breeder - Tina.....soft ears too...

They are not purebreds, they are probably the original designer breed of mixes


Lee


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

So Snap, it comes down to this.. 
Do you want a purebred or a 'mutt'? 
And, can you wait until April, and is 100% for sure that you get a puppy?


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Welp, I don't want a mutt. But 
1. I don't really think this puppy qualifies as a mutt. He's 76% shiloh, and 24% new blood from GSD, which is already in the shiloh line.
2. As long as the April litter takes and she has a boy with the right temperament, Im pretty sure I'll get him. But then again, the pup from that litter will STILL be almost 19% GSD, with 81% shiloh.

When looking at that, I'm not certain there's much of a difference.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Okay... Now do you want a sure thing, or iffy thing?


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Well obviously I want a sure thing. If something were to happen with the litter in April (all girls, wrong temperaments, false pregnancy), I'll have been looking for a year with no luck :/


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> I would wait to get what I really want, instead of being in a hurry and just settling.


This! I did that and I was unhappy and regretted my decision!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I would NOT rush. If you don't know 100% that's what you want. I would wait.. you'll always wonder if that other litter would have had what you really wanted.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

First, does this breeder with the puppy have the parents ofa'd both hips and elbows? 

That would be my number 1 concern..Honestly, outcross / percentages whatever, I'd be going with the MOST responsible breeder. one that is health testing the parents, I'd also like info on previous litters if any, how any of them ofa'd out.. 

I was also at the pet expo in Hartford, saw the shilohs that were at the booth...


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Yes, they do full health testing and OFA both hips and elbows. They also keep track of inbreeding coefficients and have a whole section on their website about degenerative myelopathy.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

I guess it really just depends on how much the percentages mean to you. If both breedings have outcrosses with GSDs both are going to be part GSD...

And from what I read (I could be wrong it got a smidge confusing) one will be 25% and the other 19% or something like that....can you meet the most recent breeder? The parents or the pups?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

if you want a German Shepherd, wait.

Puppy fever can be terminal


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

I'm really enjoying reading what everyone has to say. To be clear, I am looking for a shiloh. I didn't get sidetracked onto this, I love GSDs, but wanted to go this route this time. I haven't met these particular parents because they're in Canada.


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Welp, annnnddd I still haven't heard back yet. Everything was going really well, but now I haven't heard from her since Tuesday. I've called and emailed. Looking like it won't work out.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Hey, maybe she is out and about busy right now? Some folks do get busy.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

middleofnowhere said:


> Hey, maybe she is out and about busy right now? Some folks do get busy.


Agreed. Sometimes, problems crop up.. Time escapes us..


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

That's what I'm hoping for. The only thing that makes me think maybe she sold him to somebody else and just didn't tell me was that they're supposed to go home Sunday.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Not sure if things have been resolved or not, but personally, I would take him if it is possible. Five percent either way isn't much when talking new blood in Shilh's in this circumstance. You know the blood line, the health testing, you've done your homework. If this boy temperament is what you are looking for and he fits all other criteria other than a 5% difference, I would get him. But that is just my opinion. I hope it works out for you either way  

God bless, 
Misty


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## Snapdragon (Jul 1, 2014)

Blarrgh. So I talked to her on Monday night, and she said that the main concern we have is how to get him across the border (the litter is in Canada, what with the new regulation). So I applied to the CDC for a legal permit/agreement to bring him across, and was approved. I emailed her yesterday letting her know. I also emailed the breeder who she's mentoring, asking if I could see any pictures of the pup, and they told me that the breeder who I've been talking to is holding him at their house for another client, but they dont know that client's name. I asked if that could be me, and they said that they didnt think so because they thought the client had been waiting for this pup for a long time. The thing is that I know that cant be true because at least as recently as Monday night he was definitely available and wasn't promised to anyone.

Sigh it's all very confusing. I know she's been very busy this week, so I'm hoping to hear back today so I can at least know if I need to move on.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Personally, I would get a phone number and talk to the breeder personally, that way there isn't this 'he said she said' mistranslation accident. If the breeder knows you requested the pup and is still hunting for a home for it (ie, accepting offers/down payment) then I would b very upfront with them as to it not being a good practice to start off on (they are new breeders and don't want a bad rep to start do they).. Since you have been in constant contact expressing your desire for this pup you should have priority.... Use it  hope it works out for you  keep us posted!


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