# Foundation Lines and what they bring



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

The GSD was created using three foundation lines. Let's discuss what, in general, these individual lines bring to the table.

Here's what I've found online


*Thuringian*- known for their bountiful energy, sharpness, and wolf-like appearance. Stamped the GSD with their "type" (wolf-like appearance)
*Wurttember*- known for efficient movement, larger bone, active working dogs, intelligence, biddability, powerful yet good natured, aloofness. Stamped the GSD with temperament, trotting structure, working ability, intelligence, and courage
*Swabian*- known for size (larger than Wurttember), intelligence, steadfast, calm, versatility. Courage and conviction that would not back down to a threat. Stamped the GSD with versatility, strong temperament, and working ability.
Source: Developing the German Shepherd Breed

So let's discuss more generally how a mixture of these lines affects a dog. More Swabian brings fight, drive, and courage? More Wurttember brings a gentle disposition and trainability? More Thuringian brings sharpness and energy?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

wildo said:


> The GSD was created using three foundation lines. Let's discuss what, in general, these individual lines bring to the table.
> 
> Here's what I've found online
> 
> ...


Swabian does not bring more fight and drive. It may have those within but it is their intelligence to know when to, and more importantly when not to, use it that makes the Swabian dog a vital part of the mix. They think before they react whereas the Thuringer reacts then may or may not think about it.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Ah- thanks for the clarification, Doc!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Just keep in mind - the Wurttemberg and Swabian dogs were farm dogs. They worked all day for the love of the work; if they didn't work they were useless in the eyes of the farmer. Their job was to protect/herd/shepherd the sheep. They were smart, methodical, and slow to anger. Their "bite" was to keep the sheep in line. Their size and brain was used to ward off preditors. They didn't run after every threat and engage in a battle - they tending the flock and would put themselves between the flock and danger. When pressed, they could defend until death.
Thuringian dogs were fleet of foot, quick to respond and chase. They were used as guard dogs for the wealthy class to protect their estates and land holdings from squatters. They would were quick to react and run off into the night after things. they also quick to bite without thinking.
An interesting side bar: Horand was genetically made up of all the foundational bloodlines; I think that was the reason Max feel in love with him. IMO Horand exhibited Thuringian traits to the extreme but Max understood the other qualities were contain within his genetics and went to the bigger, calmer dogs in his earlier breedings - in particular Audiofax and the Madame Krone.
In spite of what most current German shepherd breeders preach, the very early foundation dogs were made up of a great deal of unknown bloodlines. Being such, the German shepherd varied in size all across the board. So much so that the trend was to promote and crown the larger dogs champion until Bodo von Bloxberg was named Champion in a predetermined outcome. Before Bloxberg, the champions ranged from 24 inches in height to 28 inches in height, with the taller dogs dominating the gene pool. After crowning Bloxberg Champion, Max stopped the recording of "oversized" dogs in the official Stud Book to insure smaller dogs. What is important to keep in mind is, even though the Stud Book only recorded dogs under a certain height, those dogs still contained the genes that could produce "oversized" dogs. And those dogs that were "oversized" - particularly the Wurttember and Scwabian lines were being bred by farmers and others.
There is a bitter and often hostile conversation on the board about "old fashion and oversized" German shepherds. Knowing the historical records and history of this breed, there really isn't doubt that the german shepherd was, and still is, found in varing sizes and shapes - its in the genes. The term "old fashion" was actually used in the mid 20s to describe the German shepherds before Bloxberg was crowned Champion. Its in the history books if you don't beleive me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This thread is helping me understand why aside from the GSD I prefer LGD and sentry breed dogs rather than, say, Malinois and Border Collie.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but the Swabian dogs represented two types - one the Swabian herding sheep dog and the TALLER Swabian service dog more of a guardian type and having excellent qualities for war time and police service . They were used to protect the flock against thieving poachers, wild hogs, bear and intruding stray dogs , without the behaviour that you see in other livestock guardian dogs which "become" the sheep through immersion imprinting at critical developmental times (Konrad Lorenz). This kept them multifunctional . (Hoheb Espe)
The Wurttemberger and Swabian (both) (von der Krone) did bring active aggression -- not reactive which was the case in the Thuringian (which Horand/Hektor was). Horand/Hektor and neither of his parents had HGH. The herding blood was brought in through the females .
Max was never the breeder , never had the success that "So" Eiselen had with Horand . So's reputation was well established and there are articles which give credit to So mixing the different regional types . "So" was the man behind von der Krone - Horand/Hektors best stock was under the guidance of So - to "unknown herding stock" so regional - mid German (Wurtemberg / Swabian ?) type. These became foundation dogs. Max could not ever match the quality of these dogs .
More important Max did not heed So's advice to NOT - NOT linebreed on Horand / Hektor , which he did against the advice bringing a very beautiful dog in to the world Roland Starkenburg -- but temperamentally suspect , excused away by Max as having been spoiled and over indulged. 

The "other" lines were not mystery unknown lines , they were the creation of different shepherds relying on the excellence of their dog's , as tools, for their livelihood and well being. Above all they had the gift on instinct for the work. They would have been recorded in personal , private records , memory, reputation -- oral history.
PUBLIC registry , the records of breed clubs , were new on the scene. A very good book to read is Bred for Perfection Bred for Perfection: Shorthorn Cattle, Collies, and Arabian Horses since 1800 - Margaret E. Derry - Google Books
Sometimes numbers were created for some of these females , other times it was "unknown" as shrug unrecorded - but you ask the owner and they knew for sure , if at the minimal they knew the performance ability . All you need to do is to thoroughly read the von Stephanitz book with his details about OTHER herding dogs. 
You have to include a fourth pillar of the modern german shepherd and that would be Rolf Osnabruckerland -


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, you are onpoint...that's why I refer to four types that greatly affected the onset of the breed. Swabian herding dog and Swabian guardian dog. Plus thuringian and Wuttemberg.


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## WhiteSpirit (Sep 17, 2012)

Thank you guys for all of this. I never actually read into why my working stock was bigger. Now I understand so much more about it. 

Now I have something to throw back at the people who tell me my girl is to big to be gsd lol


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> but the Swabian dogs represented two types - one the Swabian herding sheep dog and the TALLER Swabian service dog more of a guardian type and having excellent qualities for war time and police service . They were used to protect the flock against thieving poachers, wild hogs, bear and intruding stray dogs , without the behaviour that you see in other livestock guardian dogs which "become" the sheep through immersion imprinting at critical developmental times (Konrad Lorenz). This kept them multifunctional . (Hoheb Espe)


Carmen- can you clarify for me? When you say that the taller Swabian dogs did NOT "become" the sheep through immersion, are you saying that the other Swabian dogs did get immersed in the sheep? I'm trying to understand the distinction between the two different types of Swabians.

I know this comparison won't make sense (it makes sense to me though)-- Could you say that the Swabian herders were akin to Border Collies while the Swabian service dogs were akin to GSDs? What I mean is that BC's are really great herders while GSDs are really great all around service dogs. Those are very different traits. Were the two types of Swabian as different in their traits (one herding, one service) like the "modern" example I'm giving here?



carmspack said:


> You have to include a fourth pillar of the modern german shepherd and that would be Rolf Osnabruckerland -


So we have: Thuringian, Wurttemberg, and two distinct types of Swabian- which is four, so was Rolf Osnabruckerland a representation of the service Swabian? Rolf is a dog, yes?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Doc said:


> the *Wurttemberg* and *Swabian* dogs were farm dogs. They worked all day for the love of the work; if they didn't work they were useless in the eyes of the farmer. Their job was to protect/herd/shepherd the sheep. They were smart, methodical, and slow to anger. Their "bite" was to keep the sheep in line. Their size and brain was used to ward off preditors. They didn't run after every threat and engage in a battle - they tending the flock and would put themselves between the flock and danger. When pressed, they could defend until death.





Doc said:


> * Thuringian* dogs were fleet of foot, quick to respond and chase. They were used as guard dogs for the wealthy class to protect their estates and land holdings from squatters. They would were quick to react and run off into the night after things. they also quick to bite without thinking.


This is really interesting to me. The Wurttemberg and Swabian dogs sound just like modern GSDs. I'm curious (and I don't know if any of you guys could know this- but perhaps you read it...) why would the Thuringian dogs be added to the mix? Did Max find that the Wurttemberg + Swabian mix just didn't have the "energy" (animation, speed, sharpness, whatever you want to call it) behind them and wanted that extra "zing!" on top? 

To borrow from cooking, it _sounds_ like the Thuringian does were that extra splash of lime juice on top of taco meat that makes it stand out as delicious; that makes the flavor come alive and "pop" in your mouth. Is that the intention of the Thuringian? And if so, is it fair to say that a modern GSD heavily influenced from Thuringian line would be incorrect to what the GSD was intended to be?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Just as the Thuringian could be too low threshold and too energetic, some of the Wurttemberg and Swabian lines could be too high threshold and somewhat dull. While a GSD shouldn't be trigger happy, it also shouldn't be so slow to anger/react that it doesn't do anything at all. Both extremes are incorrect and a dog strongly representing one line over another would be considered incorrect per the temperament the breed is supposed to have. That is why different types were combined; To help achieve the balance the breed is supposed to have. 

The typical physical appearance of the breed also hails primarily from Thuringian genes.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thank Chris- actually that was pretty helpful. I'm pretty fixated on the Thuringian lines; they intrigue me. I didn't consider that to little of these lines (which would be too much of the other lines) could also bring an opposite imbalance. Great point.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Max said service dogs should not have more than 25 percent Thuringian blood in them. when you excede that threashold, the dog was useless as a service dog. The early foundation dogs dominated the breed. Max depended on the old breeders from Wurttember to combine dogs for proper litters. In the end, the old breeders got fed up with Max and went home to the country and kept breeding their herding lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo back to you -- "When you say that the taller Swabian dogs did NOT "become" the sheep through immersion, are you saying that the other Swabian dogs did get immersed in the sheep"
No , neither one of them got imprinted on the sheep. The Swabian guardian type was that , the guardian - strong protective drive. There are some breeds such as the Pyrenees, the Ovtscharka (probably butchering spelling), Akbash, Maremma, Kangol , are taken and placed with sheep at a very young age , sometimes even suckling on the sheep to seal the deal as it were. They virtually became a member of the sheep family. Unlike the GSD who wants to control them, move them , the flock guardian breeds may even show submissive behaviour to their sheepy family members , but you want to harm them, those lazy appearing dogs can summon up lightening fast speed. 
We have a gentleman organic farmer who is a regular at the market I participate in on Saturdays. He has a flock guardian breed, I believe it is a Kuvazs , and he has done exatly this . The dog is totally indifferent to him - not one ounce of desire to work or be obedient , he lives and breaths the identity of the sheep. In an area that is troubled with coyotes , Durham region having the highest number of animal loss to coyotes !!!, and the occassional wayward bear (remember the bear in Aurora) he has had no losses to predators on his acreage.

For those living in Ontario this farmer has a yearly two day event "open house" where you can tour his operation, see the farm animals, learn about organic and bio-dynamic farming . He does everything the old way including using horses to plow. You can see the dogs, the sheep , goats , fowl. 
His food is certified organic. Just remind next Aug you Ontarians -- his event is usually the first week in Sept. 
His farm is just a bit north of Uxbridge. Just remind me and I'll give you the details. Everyone always has a great time.
Wildo "I know this comparison won't make sense (it makes sense to me though)-- Could you say that the Swabian herders were akin to Border Collies while the Swabian service dogs were akin to GSDs"
Not at all Wildo. Border collies and GSD are very different in behaviour and genetics . If it came to a crisis need to restore diversity in the GSD then border collie would be very low to not on the list . There is so much different. The GSD as a core to sheep herding has an almost obsessive border instinct - it becomes the living fence . They don't focus on the sheep as the border collie would do . The BC's drive with their predatory eye contact . The GSD only bothers with them if they have crossed the border he is trying to maintain . The sheep they work are totally different. The sheep the BC works are lighter and very flighty . The sheep the GSD has to work are heavy and not unknown to challenge the GSD and be a general obstinate block . This is where the GSD needs his physicality and his prescence and his active aggression to over come and control the sheep. Not harm it , that is not desireable either , but to be commanding and assertive and come out the winner (or else all the other sheep will create mayhem!!).
Wildo "So we have: Thuringian, Wurttemberg, and two distinct types of Swabian- which is four, so was Rolf Osnabruckerland a representation of the service Swabian? Rolf is a dog, yes? "
You have these landrace types Thuringian, Wurtemberg , Swabian-herd / Swabian-service , so similiar to Wurtemberger that they could be identified with Wurtemberger.
Rolf , Roland, Racker Osnabrucker Land were indeed dogs.
They are the manifestation of the various indigenous groups we have touched on , Thuringian, Wurtemberger, Swabian . 
Other representatives of the pillars of the modern GSD , more recent times , would be R litter Osnabrucker Land just mentioned, Claudius Hain , Junker Nassau , and Nestor Wiegerfelsen. Nestor being largely Thuringian and behind many of the dogs (in concentration) with temperamental problems , whether it be , surprise the show lines , or the flashy sport bred lines . 

Doc pretty well nailed it "
Originally Posted by *Doc*  
_the *Wurttemberg* and *Swabian* dogs were farm dogs. They worked all day for the love of the work; if they didn't work they were useless in the eyes of the farmer. Their job was to protect/herd/shepherd the sheep. They were smart, methodical, and slow to anger. Their "bite" was to keep the sheep in line. Their size and brain was used to ward off preditors. They didn't run after every threat and engage in a battle - they tending the flock and would put themselves between the flock and danger. When pressed, they could defend until the death"_

_and again , two for two "Originally Posted by *Doc*  
*Thuringian* dogs were fleet of foot, quick to respond and chase. They were used as guard dogs for the wealthy class to protect their estates and land holdings from squatters. They would were quick to react and run off into the night after things. they also quick to bite without thinking"

not changing font style but now my additional thoughts.

The Thuringian were the source for the much wanted wolf's prick ear . The well to do would buy them and then drive in their autos putting the dogs on parade . They were the prestigious dogs. The Thuringian were also the type used for military , population oppressive , use , so a lot of this regional type drifted into the eastern bloc . 

Wildo "The Wurttemberg and Swabian dogs sound just like modern GSDs. I'm curious (and I don't know if any of you guys could know this- but perhaps you read it...) why would the Thuringian dogs be added to the mix"
.............. well some of the modern GSD actually sound more like the Thuringian with some modification. They are very sporty. As Anne the Vandal keeps recalling the dogs with true strong fight drive and active aggression are not as common . 

Wildo "why would the Thuringian dogs be added to the mix? Did Max find that the Wurttemberg + Swabian mix just didn't have the "energy" (animation, speed, sharpness, whatever you want to call it) behind them and wanted that extra "zing!" on top? "
not really, the herding dogs were doing just fine thank you very much. Right in the von Stephanitz book , and in accounts from "So" Eiselen , von Stephanitz loved the LOOK. They Phylax society loved the LOOK. The prick ears were premium . 
Max was not a herder , and not the best of breeders. He was an exceptional manager of people and system organizer. Often times the herding people would warn him and advice him , and go about breeding as they always had to satisfy their practical needs. Max (von Stephanitz) had the sense to go back and exploit the bloodlines of the solid nerved herding dogs each and every time the breed was at the cusp of failure due to temperamental problems . 

The breed as our modern GSD and with the demands for such a variety of performance it is important to keep the balance . All parts of the heritage should be understood and fine tuned for the best of dogs . Too much Thuringian , difficult , sharp shy, hyper active . Too much of the other possibly a little dull and slow to react - 

"it fair to say that a modern GSD heavily influenced from Thuringian line would be incorrect to what the GSD was intended to be? " 
I would say so - too malinois like . 

Chris Wild covered as well as one possibly could "Just as the Thuringian could be too low threshold and too energetic, some of the Wurttemberg and Swabian lines could be too high threshold and somewhat dull. While a GSD shouldn't be trigger happy, it also shouldn't be so slow to anger/react that it doesn't do anything at all. Both extremes are incorrect and a dog strongly representing one line over another would be considered incorrect per the temperament the breed is supposed to have. That is why different types were combined; To help achieve the balance the breed is supposed to have. 

The typical physical appearance of the breed also hails primarily from Thuringian genes"


_


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks every one for the replies. This is interesting stuff!



carmspack said:


> Wildo "I know this comparison won't make sense (it makes sense to me though)-- Could you say that the Swabian herders were akin to Border Collies while the Swabian service dogs were akin to GSDs"
> Not at all Wildo. Border collies and GSD are very different in behaviour and genetics . If it came to a crisis need to restore diversity in the GSD then border collie would be very low to not on the list .


Carmen- I'm well aware of how different the BC is to the GSD. That was exactly the point of my comparison. I'm trying to understand in what what the Swabian *service* dogs differed from the Swabian *herding* dogs. Clearly the difference is extreme enough for everyone to classify these two different types of Swabians as, well, two different types. 

How so? Did the herding Swabians use the "living fence" style, or were they more predatorial like a BC? Does modern herding in the GSD (HGH style, not BC style) come from the Swabian herders, or does it come from the Wurttemberg farm dogs?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Clearly the difference is extreme enough for everyone to classify these two different types of Swabians as, well, two different types

But they were not,  that is the point I was trying to make. If there was a difference it would be the quicker uptake to aggression - a little more proactive , maybe a little bit more suspicious . Take Border Collies right out of the equation. NOT predatorial , that is the bane of the herder, not trustworthy. The "farm" dogs did not exactly stay on a farm and go out and return on some daily routine. They moved from field to field in the mid and southern provinces of Germany . They used the "living fence" just like phgsds youtubey.
Swabian herders and Wurtembergers essentially are the same type . The guardian came more or less from the same base genetics with someone's selection process preferring a more guardy dog . Shepherds did not have a single dog , often two or three , not a breed choice but a talent choice - whatever specialized quality they needed for the area .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> But they were not,  that is the point I was trying to make. If there was a difference it would be the quicker uptake to aggression - a little more proactive , maybe a little bit more suspicious .


Oh!! I see! Well that's strange that they aren't all that different (Swabian herders vs service dogs) yet they seem to be classified individually as two types of foundation dogs. Sure is confusing for us newbies!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

tomayto , tomahto, potayto, potahto -- the difference is in the emphasis


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you have the von Stephanitz book go to about page 105 and follow the interchange of breeding between "a watcher and protector of the flocks and herds, next an assistant in driving on the road; we have also seen the result of the union of the two races in the herdsman's dog, and the shepherd dog with their intermediate forms " and then he goes on to describe the important role of these dogs to whose duty is "principally the warding off of the cattle from fields under cultivation" and important --- "the possibility of training the dogs for this, which afterwards became a NECESSITY," (the mother of invention and breed decisions!) "was only realised when the service of protecting the herds against animal robbers had become a thing of the past . "

more to come


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Unfortunately I don't yet have the book. I intend to buy it, but admittedly it's fairly low on my "things to spend money on" list right now.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Wildo, if you have not done so already, you may want to check out the Gordon Garrett book: http://www.angelplace.net/doc/GarrettBook.pdf.
There is some interesting information in there. I stumbled across it when trying to track down information about Claudius von Hain. Interestingly, according to the Garrett book, there were disparate views on Claudius between the working breeders and the confirmation breeders. Alfred Hahn's (Busecker Schloss) eyes were said to have lit up at the mention of Claudius and the working breeders stressed the working ability he produced. The conformation breeders felt that Claudius was "too aggressive" and "vicious" and he produced it. (p. 165) Doesn't sound all that different from today . . . . 

I also recall coming across an article/essay by Elliot Humphrey titled something like "Outstanding Sire Lines in Shepherds" which discussed some of the early dogs. After a quick search, however, I could not find it on the internet. 

Carmen, I look forward to the "more to come" from you and hopefully others. In an effort to keep this discussion going, I will throw out a few questions: Do the different lines bring different things to the table in terms of health - i.e. hips, etc.? Are there physical characteristics - head shape, eyes, ears, tails, coat, etc. - which provide clues as to the predominance of lines in a particular dog? Any examples of more modern dogs who are representative of the Wurtemberg and/or Swabian lines? (Not particularly modern, and I cannot recall where I go this, but I have in my notes that Bernd Lierberg is representative of the Swabian service dog.)


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Are there present dogs that resemblance the different lines, either in temperament or conformation, that you can show to us to understand better the difference between them?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes I will add more for sure , just try and stop me. I have the von Stephanitz book open to where I want to continue . It will explain why the GSD herds how it does , and why Border Collies and their behaviour are not even close . I believe there is even a section that discusses the Border Collie as not being something to bring in to the genetic fold BUT a there was a version of ENGLISH SHEPHERD (collie type but NOT Queen Victoria's needle nosed cross which is what we associate with rough coated collies) which was used as one of the "unknown" unregistered herding females -- . The English Shepherd also known as the American Farm Collie is genetically similar on the canine genome study - molosser group, whereas the Border Collie is not , they are part of the "wolf" group - dna .

Gord Garrett , is a wonderful man -- a true lover and observer of German Shepherds . I knew him from the very start of my participating , made a beeline to him every time- made a point of scanning the arena or the field for him. He was most visible in the "american" show lines .
I have to thank him for all his support because even back then breeding for working was going against the stream.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

This is a fascinating thread. I have nothing to contribute, but wanted to respond so I could subscribe and learn.

A very basic, and stupid, question. If we wanted to trace our own dogs back to these bloodlines, do we just keep clicking on the last dog visible on pedigree database until we see them? Or, repeating a question up there, are there bloodlines to look for that prominently feature the characteristics of each of the foundation stock?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think that you guys asking about specific dogs that resemble certain foundation bloodlines is a logical progression of the thread. One thing I hope those who have the skill and knowledge to actually answer that do is to use restriction in answering. A lot of these threads turn in to a "name drop fest" where it just becomes a bunch of dog names that only those with knowledge can look into and appreciate. When the thread turns that direction, it becomes SO hard for those of us who can't follow along to stay involved, not matter how hard we try.

So, like I said, I also wonder if there are specific dogs to represent foundation lines. (take Umsa vom Bungalow, who is a strong representation of the Minna lines, which were a strong representation of foundation Thuringian lines: see this thread for more info, and also to see how lots of dog names starts eliminating novice participation in the thread) ...But I hope this thread can stay accessible for those of us without the experience to research dog after dog after dog after dog...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wait and understand what they were like at the beginning before being inundated with names that don't mean anything . You don't have to go back as far as Sali vd Krone and Minna -- that is a little esoteric and you need more of a foundation in the development of the breed - just like this thread and understanding that Wurtembergers, and the Swabian herding and Swabian service dogs were very similar , but with slight preferences towards special talents . That is why I am taking excerpts out of the von Stephanitz book because it is all laid out there . You need to understand the herding back then, the life of the wanderschaferei and get herding instinct testing , and border collies , and even trial type herding out of the picture and then you will appreciate the different ancentral types better. Put yourself back then as much as possible .


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I love this thread as well and have decided to order a copy of v. Stephanitz book. I think it will be a valuable investment. Well worth the money. What other books would be good to go to?

Edit: anybody can answer.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Malcolm Willis's book on the genetics of the GS has good information.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Malcolm Willis - all three (I had lent my copy out so many times without it being returned I think I was Willis' best customer -- as a favour I got him to autograph one of his editions !! He wrote To Carmen with best wishes and then on the bottom in big block writing and stars and asteriks he said With Books - Neither a lender nor borrower be )
You can bet that book is not leaving my library .

Brian Wooton


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wah -- I was called away for a moment then wrote so much more that I exceeded the 10 minutes allowed for an edit -- 

here goes again -- years ago I belonged to the Alsation League of Great Britain, which eventually was changed to the name German Shepherd League of G B , giving full recognition to the Germanic origins of the breed . In the early 1900's there were English writers Horowitz as sample who made claims that the dog was British - Alsation - Schwaber also has some odd statements - but then so does von Stephanitz -- not only do you have to understand the agriculture and urbanization and keeping both camps happy , you have to understand the social climate and biases of the time which influenced these men ! Anyway , the League put out a yearly hard cover year book and there were some very good articles discussing family lines , historical backgrounds . 

Another source , magazines Das Schaferhund Magazin . I just happened to have the June 2002 issue handy . There is a good 5 page discussion on Dasty von Gries , and an article on kennel Zwinger ,, vom Kirchberghof . The magazine was within reach because I had been researching the influence to my breeding program of a a Chip Kirchberghof son that I have , and Chip's sire is Dasty v Gries .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

fearing another time-out , In the same magazine there is an article which would be exactly up Wildos alley talking about Leistungslinien after 1950 in the SV , talking about Bernd and Bodo and there offspring , Nestor Wiegerfelsen , Rolf Osnabruckerland (the later two being the sub group which is the Show lines of modern day) 

Nestor -- to Immo Hasenfang, Axel Deininghauserheide (American show lines) to Alf Nordfelsen , Veus Starrenburg, Nico haus Beck, to Nanouc , Boris, Flori to Fero , over Troll and Timmy to Aly and Yoschy . 

To complicate things because Wildo was asking what dog represents each founding group and that would be difficult because some of it you can SEE and some you can feel through the training experience . Example Troll and Timmy von der bosen nachbarschaft (essentially Troll and Timmy of the bad neighbourhood) . Troll represents the BERND side of his pedigree in body type and in behaviour and thresholds more , and his full littermate Timmy represents the Nestor side of the pedigree - being lighter in build and sharper, more reactive. 

you have to know the dogs . It is not simple . You can make a life study of this and still only scratch the surface .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Another author documenting the breed , and doing a good job is (are) Percy Elliott in the original and a few laters a revised edition with co-authored book Percy and Nem Elliott.


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## JoanMcM (Dec 5, 2013)

Is the Dasty Vom Gries article in Das Schaferhund Magazin June 2002 available somewhere in English? My current dog is 4,5 4,5 on Dasty. My dogs from 30 years ago were linebredbon Berned.


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