# Elder GSD with rapid, shallow breathing at rest



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Dear Forum,

My 80lbs., 7 year-old GSD has recently been breathing very irregularly in the past month. He is not neutered although a surgery is scheduled for next month. I am taking him for a senior physical/bloodwork on July 14, 2011. I would like to be fully prepared when talking to the vet.

I have checked the www exhaustively and many of the other threads deal with puppies or bloat. He doesn't seem to have bloat and his appetite and drinking are fine. Although I wish he would drink more. My house is also air-conditioned and I watch him constantly or keep him crated so he doesn't eat something upsetting. 

My concern is that although hie is active and at the ready to go out and play, while at rest he breathes rapidly and shallow. If I tell him to stop he will momentarily, but I am worried it may be something internal and serious. What could it be? Any ideas?

Thanks for any and all advice


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

What surgery is being planned, a neuter?

I am going through similar breathing problems with my boy, and we can't find the cause. The list of possibilities is pretty extensive. It could be pain, lungs, nose, heart, esophagus, leaking salivary glands, digestive, metabolic issues and probably stuff I am not aware of.

With me, when I have breathing like that, it means I need to see the chiro and get my back cracked! Back stuff can do that to dogs too.


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## kgulbranso (Dec 25, 2004)

I don't want to frighten you, but we lost our 10 year old girl two years ago. A week before she passed we took her into the vet. Only symptoms she had were some shallow breathing and panting. We lost her a week later to cancer. Have you had him to the vet especially for this issue? Our vet immediately didn't like her breathing and did a chest xray. We will have our paws crossed that this is nothing serious and that your boy does well with his surgery.
Susan, Maggie, Beau & our newest Dante' (GSD)


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

kgulbranso said:


> I don't want to frighten you, but we lost our 10 year old girl two years ago. A week before she passed we took her into the vet. Only symptoms she had were some shallow breathing and panting. We lost her a week later to cancer. (GSD)


Uh...oh! Now I am scared. BTW: I am having a neuter surgery scheduled for next month. I don't know why I put that off for so long, but now I am sort of backpedaling and trying to fix and prevent anything that may happen. Day to day life just gets in the way, I guess. 

Is the breathing a symptom of cancer? What type of cancer was it? Was it treatable if diagnosed earlier? I am attaching a year old picture that basically shows what he looks like still.

Usually I get rushed in and out of the vet's office but this time I want to get what I (and you too) are paying for so I scheduled the last appt of the day. Any questions I can ask the vet would be much appreciated and I WILL POST MY DIAGNOSIS & RESULTS IN THIS THREAD so everyone else in the GSD community can learn from me. 

Thanks


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I wouldn't do the neuter if there is no reason to do it.

I have had bloodwork done, an abdominal ultrasound, a chest xray, and acupuncture and chiropractic work done on my boy with little success in treating the breathing. Antibiotics have helped to a degree. Friday we have a cardiac consultation.

This can be infectious - bacterial, or fungal. If you were in an area where they have things like Valley Fever, that is also an avenue to pursue.

I would start with a complete blood panel, including the thyroid, and get a copy of the bloodwork and look at it yourself for *anything* near the edges of normal. The doc will listen to the heart, palpate the abdominal organs (including the spleen), among other things. You might ask about things like Cushing's or atypical Addison's.

I don't really have any questions, I'm pretty clueless and frustrated myself!


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Dear LisaT,

I plan on having bloodwork and an extensive conversation about the prevention of and overt symptoms of internal diseases with the vet. I have a couple of questions for you though...

1. Is your boy exhibiting any atypical behaviors? My Kal is seeking more time in his very large crate and is not sleeping on the bed with me. Usually we have this routine where he climbs into bed and then after a couple of hours, steps on my head and sleeps on the floor. However, lately he wants to either sleeps in his crate or on the floor initially. Also he lays on the floor with his eyes open and a faraway look in his eyes. Usually they are closed. 

2. How is he eating and drinking? Kal is still drinking but out the blue he gets really thirsty and drinks pretty heavily.

Please let me know and maybe I can present our symptoms to the vet and get some kind of comprehensive answer.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I wouldn't do the neuter if there is no reason to do it.


I second this. If there's no specific reason to do it, skip the neuter. Is he having chronic prostate infections or something? I know at this age almost all intact males have BPH, but in a large majority of cases it is asymptomatic.

If it's something like that, and the infections or what have you are able to be controlled with antibiotics, I'd simply manage them for now, especially in the face of his current (possible) medical problems. Until you know what is causing the breathing problems I would be VERY hesitant to put him under GA where his breathing, pulse, heart rate, etc, are all going to be depressed.

Any surgery is risky - even routine surgeries like S/N - but your guy is at much higher risk than most with an undiagnosed respiratory problem.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Puffswami, my boy is 10 with a host of medical problems I have been balancing over the years, so his presentation won't be exactly the same. I also wouldn't want his stuff to inappropriately sway you in one direction or another. 

With the breathing however, he is weaker, not getting enough oxygen. He does not come up on the bed as frequently (had to laugh at your post, funny how a person can miss getting their head stepped on). He is restricting his own activity, and appears to be more sensitive to heat. 

From the panting, I can see the tongue changing texture and shape, and I think that's partly from different states of dehydration. He does tend to gorge on water, just as you describe - again, I think that's from the excessive panting, though I could be wrong.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Oh, I will know by Friday night about his heart. 

On the u/s, they could not find the adrenals - she said it's good that they are not large. However, not seeing them, logically does not exclude that they are small or atrophied. He does not handle stress well at all. 

On u/s, his spleen is enlarged, but he also battles chronic infection, and it is less enlarged then a couple years ago. 

The chest xray, his airways were a bit calcified. I heard it also referred to as "dirty lung". The vet, a veterinary radiologist and a human radiologist all said that they saw no problems with that, it's a normal part of aging. 

These things might be unique to my boy and unrelated to yours, but I thought I'd through them out there.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks all.

My dog has mysteriously taken a turn for the better in the past couple of days. Once again, rests without panting; nice and quiet in the house. Breathing, elimination, nourishment and heart rate are back to normal. However, I am not content about it. I still am going to get his senior exam tomorrow. 

However, I will talk to the vet about risks of neutering, respiration, and prostate concerns before getting him fixed. I have never seen another golden shepherd so I thought it might be nice to breed him. Although he is people-friendly, he is very dog-aggressive, not out to kill but definitely to establish dominance; maybe neutering would help that and the risk of prostate cancer.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

At his age, I would question whether the neutering would have any affect. These are learned behaviors. Taking him to a class for reactive dogs would probably be a better use of your money. I'm doing that now and have seen great progress after only 4 classes. 
I was thinking, a good thing for any senior dog, is a pain evaluation as a place to start. Make sure you are giving good supplements, and maybe tweek it. 

I'm glad that he is feeling better. I guess the ley is whether you start getting your head stepped on again


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

puffswami said:


> However, I will talk to the vet about risks of neutering, respiration, and prostate concerns before getting him fixed. I have never seen another golden shepherd so I thought it might be nice to breed him. Although he is people-friendly, he is very dog-aggressive, not out to kill but definitely to establish dominance; maybe neutering would help that and the risk of prostate cancer.


Prostate cancer risks are increased _fourfold_ by neutering. It's not much - something like .6% for intact males and 2.4% for neutered males - but it's still a very marked increase.

As far as DA, the only type of aggression that neutering has a good correlation with solving is SSA. Is it toward all dogs or just males (particularly in the presence of females)?

I'd also agree with LisaT, however, that at his age it's likely learned and even if it is SSA, neutering is not likely to have an effect on this behavior - he needs a trainer, not surgery. To be crass, behavior is in the brain, not the balls. Messing with hormones can sometimes achieve the desired effect (and much more...for better or for worse...) but don't listen to your vet when he tries to tell you it is a paneca. Especially where aggression is concerned. If it is sourced in fear, neutering can often worsen the problem. At best, it might do nothing.

Glad to hear he is doing better but you should still definitely get him looked at. Even if the visible symptoms have gone away that does not mean a possible underlying cause has also gone away.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Are those numbers are for pediatric neuters?


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Are those numbers are for pediatric neuters?


The .6/2.4%?

No, that's "all intact dogs" vs "all neutered dogs."

I hadn't thought of it until now, but since the OP's dog is 7, that might affect any potential increased risk of cancer. Perhaps it is cumulative? The more years a dog spends neutered, the higher his cancer risk? I'm not sure how that works. I've never seen any research regarding age of neuter vs prostate cancer risk. I suspect most of the neutered dogs in any study examining a neutered population would have been neutered at 4-6 months, since that's fairly standard - either due to law/ordinance, or just because that's the standard age people push for.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Do you have the study you got those numbers from?


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Immunohistochemical characterization of canine pro... [Vet Comp Oncol. 2003] - PubMed result

and

ScienceDirect - Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology : Canine prostate carcinoma: epidemiological evidence of an increased risk in castrated dogs


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks, the vet who is giving the senior physical is also going to perform the scheduled neuter. I will talk to her about the percentages. 

Kal is also not mean but he is aggressive. Unfortunately, when other dog owners see my Kal running full speed in attack mode towards their dog it is a hard message to convey. I think it is now learned and that is why I always keep him away from other dogs. I will talk to the vet about this as well.


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

I wouldnt neuter him. There is NO point in putting a senior Shepherd under for surgery that isnt even needed. If you still chose to do a needless neuter, at least find out what the breathing problem is first. 

I would not risk putting this dog under a general at this point in time especially for something such as a neuter...


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

I would be concerned about hemangiosarcoma in any older GSD that is experiencing mild to moderate labored breathing and especially if they have an enlarged spleen as that is the very typical spot for this cancer to start. Other possible symptoms are darker urine from a mild change to cola colored and swelling in the abdomen. This is a very insidious cancer that more often than not does not give any warning symptoms until it is simply too late. Getting a jump on it can help a bit with quality of life.

Cherri


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My girl who had hemangio presented with fatigue. This caused labored breathing at times.
she had a tumor on her heart.


No neuturing for my males due to possible increased cancer risks. I feel the same about the female shepherds and keep them intact as long as I can.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Samba said:


> My girl who had hemangio presented with fatigue. This caused labored breathing at times.
> she had a tumor on her heart.


This is actually my concern, the tumor on the heart aranoid:


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

EastGSD said:


> I would be concerned about hemangiosarcoma in any older GSD that is experiencing mild to moderate labored breathing and especially if they have an enlarged spleen as that is the very typical spot for this cancer to start.


I agree. 

I think in Max's case, the enlarged spleen has more to do with some chronic infection. The spleen gets better when he is on doxycycline, very typical pattern for some of the tick diseases. Those should also be ruled out with fatigue and labored breathing.


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeah, actually now that I think about it my Rottie had the laboured breathing and shortness of breath a few weeks before he passed peacefully at night. Necropsy revealed that nasty cancer on his Heart AND spleen. 

My current dog is neutered, and suffers ill effect from is. No more neutering for me

I would find out whats wrong before you go ahead with the neuter if you still plan to do it.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

LisaT said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think in Max's case, the enlarged spleen has more to do with some chronic infection. The spleen gets better when he is on doxycycline, very typical pattern for some of the tick diseases. Those should also be ruled out with fatigue and labored breathing.



I'm sorry Lisa, I forgot you mentioning that with your Max, I was not referring to him. I just mean it is usually the first thing noticed by a vet when it comes to hemangio when they do the physical exam, they palpate and usually notice the spleen isn't right. I agree with you on the tick diseases as well.

Cherri


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

Isnt the spleen located up behind the ribs and above i think the intestines? If so how is the vet able to actually feel the spleen? I would think pressing up like that hard enough to feel the spleen may cause damage to other organs...or am I confused as to where the spleen is located? The diagrams I seen give me the above impression.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

EastGSD said:


> I'm sorry Lisa, I forgot you mentioning that with your Max, I was not referring to him. I just mean it is usually the first thing noticed by a vet when it comes to hemangio when they do the physical exam, they palpate and usually notice the spleen isn't right.


You're right, it was a "fill in" vet that first found the enlarged spleen on exam for Max.

puffswami, good luck at the vet tomorrow.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

OK ALL. Just got back from the vet and I will post all the information I gathered. BTW: I think it is very important to do follow-up posts for the benefit of everyone. Coincidentally the vet had a German Shepherd at home so she was especially aware of the breed. 

1. Physical exam - Everything was normal. She said weight, heart rate and body all felt sound. Blood test results tomorrow. 

2. Breathing - She said it was likely due to changes in humidity and temperature. She said her GSD exhibits similar symptoms whereas her Labrador does not. This is most likely to the sensitivity of the double-coated breeds to heat. She said even brushing multiple times a day may not affect his rate of breathing and it is the only way Kal can cool down. Sometimes it can indicate other issues (cancer/respiratory infections) but usually this will have more than one symptom such as lumps and weather will not be a factor. The double-coat is also a likely reason for just more allergies, scratching, etc. 

3. Neuter - She said that YES, a neuter can increase the likelihood of prostate cancer from .6 to 2.4 (4x). She said vets don't know why this is so, but it is not such an increase that they will advise against it. Also, a neuter may decrease other types of cancers (testicular). It is hard to say what I should do and she indicated that she would have the dog neutered (they haven't lost a dog in neuter yet) but it is a personal decision. I am going to try to inform myself more about it but am leaning against it.

3. Eating/Drinking - She said the dog's appetite will change for a number of reasons, so unless no drinking or eating over a period of time then not to be worried. 

Thanks everyone - Me and Kal


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

Neutering does eliminate the risk of testicular cancer. But the risk of your dog getting testicular cancer is less then 1%. If he does get it, there is a cure..neuter. 

Neutering increases the likelihood of hypothyroidism, UTI's, urinary incontinence etc.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, at his age, I"m with the rest of the gang on not neutering and getting a good trainer. Is where you are at very hot and humid right now? I know some parts of the country are crazy hot. Do the problems go away when it cools down?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad your vet seems to be so open to the benefits/non benefits of neutering and isn't 'pushing' something on you..Alot of vets are pro neuter no matter what.

Anyhow, also glad he' has had a good check up so far 

I agree with the others, at this age, neutering most likely will not change the way he is, and I'd just leave him be, unless of course you decide otherwise. 

I find most of the gsd's I've had, even tho my house is AC, they either didn't do well with the heat, and/or coming from AC to the heat and back, takes them awhile to cool down. 

Hope your blood work comes out fine


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Thanks again. I am so glad that my Kal is OK that I am going to go out for a drink tonight. 

Yes, it seems that the weather is determinate in his breathing patterns. The vet told me that GSDs have a hard time getting cool period. I live in the Midwest and the weather is now relatively cool and comfortable after the past month of high humidity and heat. Finally the house is nice and quiet again and there are no labored and worrisome breathing patterns in either of my dogs. 

I recently lost my beloved 16 y.o. cat, Kami, and I have been on pins and needles regarding the health of my two dogs. Thats why all the talk of the breathing and neutering. I thought neutering may give him a couple more years with me. 

The bloodwork is also important to get because it gives you a baseline of numbers when he is healthy, so I would encourage doing that as well (don't overpay though - the price varies significantly amongst vets). 

Hopefully, everything turns out OK and thanks for the well wishes.


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

If anything neutering will give you less time with him. Studies have shown dogs kept intact generally live a little longer then neutered dogs.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

About the only thing worth mentioning in regard to a positive result from a neuter would be that his prostate would shrink (at his age it is almost certainly enlarged - but that's no more something abnormal than gray hair is, it's just something that happens with age, and it's usually asymptomatic) and you're less likely to have problems with prostate infections or painful elimination.

But that often responds quite well to drugs. If it's something chronic that's when I'd at least start considering a neuter (that's why I asked about chronic prostate infections way back on page one).

Testicular cancer is a horrible reason to neuter, to be blunt. It's exceedingly rare (.9% incident rate, and that includes tumors of undescended testicles which are exponentially more likely to become cancerous...so if both his coins are in the purse, his chance of getting it is much, much lower than even .9%) and I've never even managed to find a statistic concerning mortality. The tumors are benign more often than malignant.

I don't think dogs really die of testicular cancer. Even if the tumor gets massive and grotesque metastasis is rare due to the ah...gravitational, and isolated location. Castration is 100% curative.

Prostate cancer, on the other hand, is highly malignant and prognosis is extremely poor.

~

On the behavior front...I've found that in general, castration calms a dog down and gets him to focus sooner, but they never attain the same level of maturity or _eventual_ level of focus that intact dogs do.

Obviously there are exceptions to any rule, and all individuals are different, but that's just my unqualified observation.

In your dog's case I doubt anything would change. You aren't having him castrated during development, and in his elder years, his behaviors are well set in stone. They're in the brain at this point and not likely to be affected by hormones.

His testosterone levels may be fairly close to castrate levels anyway at his age. I know they start dropping off fairly quickly in middle age in mammals.

~

In terms of lifespan, AFAIK there is no statistical difference. Certainly nothing anywhere NEAR close to two years. Considering the myriad of health risks that castrated dogs are subject to (particularly those done young) - and the type (they tend to be nastier things with poor prognosis, vs the higher risks of intact dogs that tend to be mild, easily curable problems) - it's more likely that an intact dog would live longer.

Of course if his hormones are sending him out in the road running after females, health issues don't mean much. You can be intact and only have an X% of contracting Cancer Y, rather than the Z% that castrates are subject to...but if you get hit by a car that means nothing.

Gotta weigh everything in context with the individual.

Samson's best friend was castrated at about 15 months, IIRC. I don't think he would have lived too very long if he wouldn't have been. Hard to say. Some of his risky behaviors had disappeared a couple months before but I'm not sure if that's because females quit going into season, maybe, or if it is because the behaviors genuinely stopped.

~

Your vet's explanation for his breathing makes sense. Might have just been the heat.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm sorry for the recent loss of your kitty. 

It sounds like you were happy with the vet visit, and that's good . GSDs tend to be "livery" dogs and run hot, but you can't take too many chances with these senior dogs of ours!

Do be sure to get a copy of the blood results for your file at home, and look for yourself for anything near the "edges" of normal. 

Neutering can increase the odds for hemangiosarcoma and also osteosarcoma, which might be relevant to your decision. IF you can find the right trainer, who doesn't use any aggression to address aggression, you might enjoy the time working with him.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

puffswami, any more breathing incidents?


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

I have to keep the AC set at 68 just for this reason. If I bump it even to 70 I can see a difference in my dog's breathing. It's 100 out and I have a blanket on me in the house.
He also likes to sleep with his face on the AC floor register.


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

@LisaT

Thank you for asking about any more breathing incidents. He has not had any more breathing problems. It had everything to do with the humidity and the heat. M&J is correct that even a couple of degrees have an effect on GSDs versus us. Normally, even with the AC off the house is pretty cool because it is older (est. 1870 - BTW: Don't buy an old house). 

I am relieved that the blood came back normal but I am glad I have a baseline for his blood work.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

That's great news all around, no more scary panting AND normal bloodwork


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