# GSDs and reactivity???



## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

So what's the deal with this? Seems like every one I talk to with a GSD has reactivity issues. Whether its with dogs, people whatever. I was talking to a friend the other day who owns a dog training business and she was telling me that literally EVERY GSD she gets in class is reactive. They all have trouble focusing because they are "scanning'' and all of them fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. It got me thinking about it and honestly it seems that pretty much every person I have talked to, has this problem with their GSD. Some outgrow it, some don't.

So is this something that goes along with the breed? Are these just ALL incorrect dogs? Bad handlers? I am just trying to get some perspective in this, seems to be a very common issue.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Not all. Not by a long shot. 

I have two GSDs right now, both rescues. The female is very chill, then again she's pushing ninety. The male can be, but isn't always. He's a young adult and we're getting a late start in training, but for him it's mostly genetics (aka poorly bred).

Have had GSDs most of my life and the ones that came from a responsible breeding program were just worlds apart from my rescues. My conclusion is that breeding plays a huge role, handling and training an equally important role. 

As far as scanning constantly, they're herding dogs. What does your friend expect from a breed that was developed to monitor and direct herds of dozens of moving animals? Also, if a personal protection dog doesn't have a natural inclination to watch, what use is it, really  One thing *all* of my GSDs have had in common: They totally know *every little thing* going on around them. Whether they react, though, I think is a factor in their breeding/handling/training equation. 




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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My male is 4 yrs old and not reactive,he has a fairly high threshold in most situations. He's been this way since puppyhood. Very neutral with other dogs and is aloof to strangers.
I agree with JackandMattie/ I want my dogs to be aware of their surroundings yet think before they react. That shows balance in the brain.
It sometimes comes with maturity, sometimes it never appears.
Not sure how many breeders place value on it, they are too focused on looks or the sport side. Many sport dogs are lower threshold/reactive but not so much aggressive, they just love to go off because they can and the off switch isn't much more than a dimmer switch.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

My pup is leash reactive towards dogs but his is just frustration from not being able to greet and play with dogs while on leash. Off leash he is great with dogs if not a little bit over enthusiastic. But I wouldn't go as far as to say its bad breeding and I am a novice handler but I wouldn't call myself a 'bad' one. I attribute a lot of this to his age, he's 10 months old and an intact male... Also when we're training and herding he COMPLETELY ignores other dogs and pays them no mind even if they're in the pen with us so I have hope that he just needs to mature a bit.

There are a lot of variables but I know where I train, my local GSD club there are quite a few GSD's who can't be near the other dogs or who lunge and snap too.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Agreed Carriesue! Maturity is a factor I left out of the equation. Also, socialization. My sometimes reactive Jack missed that during the critical puppy weeks. 


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

My 3 year old female isn't reactive. She gets a tad excited to meet other dogs but she's not reactive or charging in.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My 4 year old byb male GSD is not reactive. He has no issues whatsoever with humans or other animals.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

This is what I mean though...most of the GSDs I know that are reactive are not bad dogs, they are not from bad breedings and most have handlers that have worked really hard with them. It just seems like a very common go to behavior for a lot of GSDs. It just makes me wonder where it comes from and why it's so prevalent in the breed.

I have a GSD that is from a very nice breeding that is reactive. For example a few months ago we walked into the barn we normally do agility in and that day there happened to be a horse running around in circles (don't know what you call that lol) in the arena we work in. The instant he saw the horse he totally flipped out, full on reaction. He got a slip collar correction and we stood there for a minute for him to look at it. He calmed down and we went about our training. Next time we saw the horse he got a little ruffled but was fine. 

My other GSD exact same scenario, looked at the horse, thought about it a second, decided he didn't care and we went about training. THAT doesn't seem to be what you _commonly _see in GSDs.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I've had 7 GSDs and only 1 has been what I would call reactive. Mauser was attached by another GSD at a training session and is now large dog aggressive/reactive.

He has no problems with small dogs - just the large ones.

My other 6 GSDs had no reactivity issues at all.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

From what I know or been told about my two..female is probably from a back yard breeder and the male seems to be on the well bred side. My female is great with everything and doesn't react at all, she has good nerves and is very well balanced and always has been. The male reacts to dogs on a leash, even the ones he lives with. He has a great temperament, so we are thinking it is not in the genes but in the lack of training. I can't wait for the day when he doesn't react and we will work on it until we get there. I here the same thing from the vets. They are amazed by my female and how she is, they say that she is a true representation of the breed and they wish all of them could be like her. The reason I got a second one was because of how great she was, I wasn't counting on getting one that was even a little reactive..Its not his fault, he does have potential.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think you are drawing your conclusions from a very limited sampling, there are reactive dogs, but there are many that aren't what I call reactive, and many that are quite docile.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it's the people handling the dog. they don't know how to train,
socialize, take general care of the dog, bad trainers, no consistency
in training or socializing. reactivity isn't breed specific.



KristiM said:


> So what's the deal with this? Seems like every one I talk to with a GSD has reactivity issues. Whether its with dogs, people whatever. I was talking to a friend the other day who owns a dog training business and she was telling me that literally EVERY GSD she gets in class is reactive. They all have trouble focusing because they are "scanning'' and all of them fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. It got me thinking about it and honestly it seems that pretty much every person I have talked to, has this problem with their GSD. Some outgrow it, some don't.
> 
> So is this something that goes along with the breed? Are these just ALL incorrect dogs? Bad handlers? I am just trying to get some perspective in this, seems to be a very common issue.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I think you are drawing your conclusions from a very limited sampling, there are reactive dogs, but there are many that aren't what I call reactive, and many that are quite docile.


Your right I only personally know about a dozen or so GSDs (the majority of which are reactive) and its possible that the dozens of GSDs my friends who own training businesses see are maybe just problem dogs. Kinda like how most dogs vets see are unhealthy. 

Just seems like a pretty common problem, maybe it's local.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the common problem is the owner/owners of the dog and it's far
from local.



KristiM said:


> Your right I only personally know about a dozen or so GSDs (the majority of which are reactive) and its possible that the dozens of GSDs my friends who own training businesses see are maybe just problem dogs. Kinda like how most dogs vets see are unhealthy.
> 
> >>>>>> Just seems like a pretty common problem, maybe it's local.<<<<<<


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

KristiM said:


> Your right I only personally know about a dozen or so GSDs (the majority of which are reactive) and its possible that the dozens of GSDs my friends who own training businesses see are maybe just problem dogs. Kinda like how most dogs vets see are unhealthy.
> 
> Just seems like a pretty common problem, maybe it's local.


It's also possible that your friend's clients are inexperienced GSD owners... Unless she's a dedicated working dog trainer, Schutzhund/IPO trainer, could be she's more likely to see the dogs from "pet" breeders; dogs who were bred for looks over temperament and sold to first time owners. Could still be great dogs, but the dogs who exemplify the best of breed standards are often purchased on a waiting list and trained with just as much consideration. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

doggiedad said:


> it's the people handling the dog. they don't know how to train,
> socialize, take general care of the dog, bad trainers, no consistency
> in training or socializing.


Sorry, but that's totally not true.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

KristiM said:


> Your right I only personally know about a dozen or so GSDs (the majority of which are reactive) and its possible that the dozens of GSDs my friends who own training businesses see are maybe just problem dogs. Kinda like how most dogs vets see are unhealthy.


Exactly. Many owners only seek out training beyond puppy school when there is a problem instead of being in training for the fun of it. 

Of my 3, only 1 is reactive. She had a tough puppyhood and is weak nerved. The other two (both of which are BYB and 1 rescued at a year old) are not reactive and the rescue is the most stable in the group.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it's true in a lot of the situations. 



doggiedad said:


> it's the people handling the dog. they don't know how to train,
> socialize, take general care of the dog, bad trainers, no consistency
> in training or socializing. reactivity isn't breed specific.





Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sorry, but that's totally not true.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm really starting to believe more and more that temperament is in fact largely genetic. I used to fully believe in nurture over nature but I have seen and personally experienced that you can make small changes to temperament but largely it is what it is.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Haven't read all the responses, but this is becoming more and more true for all dogs, not just GSDs. It's what happens in countries with minimal regulations on breeding, little to no attention to the "standard," and very little regard to temperaments and nerves.

EDIT: Also a piece to the puzzle is owners humanizing dogs, treating them like children, giving no boundaries, terrible training, etc...two way street...genetics and training, both are equally important pieces to the overall puzzle imo.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KristiM said:


> I'm really starting to believe more and more that temperament is in fact largely genetic. I used to fully believe in nurture over nature but I have seen and personally experienced that you can make small changes to temperament but largely it is what it is.


This is probably good news for me. Mine has a great temperament with everything except those dogs on a leash, so I have hope that he can eventually accept everything with some nurturing. His disposition and temperament are what sold me on him.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

IMO, this over reactivity is a reflection of nerve issues or being overly defensive, where the dog is insecure and wants to chase the perceived threat away. Again, this goes back to the decline of the breed as a whole.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> IMO, this over reactivity is a reflection of nerve issues or being overly defensive, where the dog is insecure and wants to chase the perceived threat away. Again, this goes back to the decline of the breed as a whole.


On the flip side of that there is the reactivity caused by over excitement which when combined with restraint causes frustration. Dog sees other dogs wants to run over. Held back by leash gets frustrated and reacts by lunging, barking etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Clyde said:


> On the flip side of that there is the reactivity caused by over excitement which when combined with restraint causes frustration. Dog sees other dogs wants to run over. Held back by leash gets frustrated and reacts by lunging, barking etc.



I'm going to agree with this 100%. My dog is not afraid of the other dogs in the house, as a matter of a fact they all get along really well. When my other dogs are outside on a leash and so he is, he reacts like he wants to kill them, the same way he does with other dogs on a leash. I know that he doesn't want to kill them and I know he's frustrated. It is frustrating to me, because I don't know how to teach him not to be frustrated. Mine is not a fearful dog, he is very confident and other then the over excitement with the other dogs, he has a very good temperament and I don't consider him weak nerved. The problem is that most people would consider it fear and they are trying to train/help me to train him based on it being fear. I can't find anyone that has a dog that is willing to let my dog approach them in this state or when he is coming out of this state. I feel if he could approach just a couple dogs that are stable it would help him quite a bit. And I can't blame them, because he looks and sounds very intimidating.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

reactivity, stop blaming the dog. start training and socializing
from a very young age.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thresholds are genetic...you can manage reactivity but you really can't train and socialize the dog out of it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> reactivity, stop blaming the dog. start training and socializing
> from a very young age.


Sometimes its not possible to start from an early age. In my case and I'm sure in lots of cases the dog comes to you like this, then the training can start, but its much harder at a year versus 8 weeks.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I am going to agree with doggiedad on this one. I feel that people on this forum are quick to say it is genetics... not much you can do. I do not believe that. And, I believe it tends to give the person with a reactive dog a reason not to try anymore. And this point-of-view is typically given without actually having seen the dog or the dog/handler interaction.

I believe it is a very small % of dogs that are truly unretrievable from a genetic standpoint.

Maybe, not all will become completely neutral, but they can be trained/socialized to be out in the world without it being an issue.

ETA: I feel this emphasis on genetics is particularly problematic when people apply it to rescue/shelter dogs. In my experience, these dogs rebound really quickly with a proper home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Thresholds are genetic...you can manage reactivity but you really can't train and socialize the dog out of it.


I believe this to a certain point. I believed it so much that I believe that I wasted some time thinking this way. My male(the reactive one) met my female on a leash and all he wanted to do is play. He never had the opportunity to have a distance, he came out and she was there. He adored her from the get go. It was the same with my two other dogs. He is a very playful dog and I truly believe that he wants to play. I can't treat it as aggression, because that I think is making it worse. I'm not sure what I need to do, but I do know that he does not know how to greet other dogs, which can be a problem for him. I do know that I will make it work and it will be my way


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> ETA: I feel this emphasis on genetics is particularly problematic when people apply it to rescue/shelter dogs. In my experience, these dogs rebound really quickly with a proper home.


This is what most people think about mine. The trainers, all of them, believe that its a training issue. Its not a quick process, its a long drawn out process, but I won't stop until I get the results I'm looking for...shhhh don't tell Midnite he's met his match


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

llombardo said:


> This is what most people think about mine. The trainers, all of them, believe that its a training issue.* Its not a quick process, its a long drawn out process*, but I won't stop until I get the results I'm looking for...shhhh don't tell Midnite he's met his match


This is the reason so many dogs are failed. People don't go slow and put a solid foundation on the training. And most rescue/shelter dogs need time to decompress and get to know their new lives before they show who they really are.
Slow going is the way to go for the best results.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> is this something that goes along with the breed? Are these just ALL incorrect dogs? Bad handlers? I am just trying to get some perspective in this, seems to be a very common issue.


Classes start usually in the morning, and the majority of people, or they don't bother to exercise their young dogs properly before driving to the place of training, or they simply make a mistake thinking that if their dog "comes fresh" he will be in a better form. Wrong. Try it yourself, and you will see how different your dog can be, when he chases his ball for 1 hour before you meet him with exciting smells and awkward situation. It is also advisable to refreshen learned commands in less stressful environment in your local park before the classes, when you see that sparkle in his eyes telling you he wants nothing but you - you can be sure you can engrave something onto his doggy memory, if he is not with you - means that his legs are dragging him somewhere to the green fields and his brain is dragging after.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

LifeofRiley said:


> I am going to agree with doggiedad on this one. I feel that people on this forum are quick to say it is genetics... not much you can do. I do not believe that. And, I believe it tends to give the person with a reactive dog a reason not to try anymore. And this point-of-view is typically given without actually having seen the dog or the dog/handler interaction.
> 
> I believe it is a very small % of dogs that are truly unretrievable from a genetic standpoint.
> 
> ...


A large part of it is genetics. Of my 3 dogs, the two that I have had access to from a young age (both around 12-20 weeks) are the most reactive. Raven has always been a little fearful and she can be reactive in _some_ situations. I got her at 12 weeks and she was socialized like crazy. Holly I started working with around 5 months and she was already fear aggressive. There's no turning her into something else. With constant work she can be around people and in proximity to other dogs but it is *constant* work and even a 2 week break causes her to backslide.

Kaiser however, I got at a year old already and he lived in a rural area most likely in a yard, possibly chained with probably little to no socialization and he is great with people and dogs. 

Anecdotal evidence at best but that's 3 dogs in the same household - 1 completely stable without socialization and 2 that are varying degrees of fearful and reactive with a ton of socialization. 

Genetics is a large factor. It is not an excuse. Socialization isn't everything.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

@gsdraven, you are a very experienced handler. I trust that you are right about your dogs. 

But, I have seen a lot of dogs who have been given up to a shelter/rescue because they are "aggressive," "hyper," "uncontrollable," etc... and they were not. They did great in foster homes and then new forever homes.

ETA: And, again, that is why I feel that this board's emphasis on treating every problem as "genetic weakness" is a problem in a rescue/shelter context.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

LifeofRiley said:


> But, I have seen a lot of dogs who have been given up to a shelter/rescue because they are "aggressive," "hyper," "uncontrollable," etc... and they were not. They did great in foster homes and then new forever homes.


I think this is more a handler issue than anything else - many people simply do not want to put in the effort to meet their dogs' needs. Not to mention how many people lie about why they are really giving up their dog. 



LifeofRiley said:


> ETA: And, again, that is why I feel that this board's emphasis on treating every problem as "genetic weakness" is a problem in a rescue/shelter context.


I don't disagree but it is the safer route. Telling people that all they need to do is socialize more without being able to see if the dog is fearful/nervous/aggressive/etc is asking for trouble. It could end up with someone getting bit.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Don't forget, most shelter environments(and many rescues) are very stressful for most dogs, and GSD's are not good candidates for living in a shelter for long without showing behavioral problems. Then they are not evaluated properly.
The dogs that don't show any stress are probably of excellent nerve.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Don't forget, most shelter environments(and many rescues) are very stressful for most dogs, and GSD's are not good candidates for living in a shelter for long without showing behavioral problems. Then they are not evaluated properly.
> The dogs that don't show any stress are probably of excellent nerve.


I agree completely. The fact is that for most rescue/shelter dogs to even make it to an adoption floor (or to be eligible for rescue transport) is a huge testament to their temperament. 

This is sad because so many dogs become so stressed in a shelter environment that they display behaviors that are totally context-dependent. And, in most cases, these behaviors are a death sentence for the dog.

For those dogs that make it, they may still come into a home with reactivity issues - particularly since there are a lot of transports from rural to urban areas. So, the dogs are experiencing a lot of new things all at once. And, I would hate the adopter to come to this forum, read a thread like this, and think that there is no hope because it is all genetics. Because, in this context, more often than not, it is not!!!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I didn't realize this board treated every reactive issue as genetic....I can remember posts clearly describing reactivity as being, lack of socialization, genetic, or handler/owner inexperience.....but maybe it was another forum I read this on. Oh Well, I seem to get confused quite easily these days....lol


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I didn't realize this board treated every reactive issue as genetic....I can remember posts clearly describing reactivity as being, lack of socialization, genetic, or handler/owner inexperience.....but maybe it was another forum I read this on. Oh Well, I seem to get confused quite easily these days....lol


Not all, but many. It is often a first line on reactivity, fearfulness, etc...

At least it happens enough that someone like me, who is relatively new to this board, was really relieved that I didn't come here before I started to get to know GSDs in shelter/rescue through fostering and then adopting.

While it is true that not every GSD I have fostered would meet the breed standard (although some not just met it, but were exemplars, IMO), most were great dogs and great pets! 

My dog is a great pet for me! Solid in every urban situation that he is exposed to... and he goes almost everywhere with me. But, is he a great example of the GSD breed standard? Not in every aspect. I don't care.... that is the beauty of adopting... the only standard he has to meet is mine : )


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## scrunk (Jun 29, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I didn't realize this board treated every reactive issue as genetic....I can remember posts clearly describing reactivity as being, lack of socialization, genetic, or handler/owner inexperience.....but maybe it was another forum I read this on. Oh Well, I seem to get confused quite easily these days....lol


Spot on! There is a difference in the cause of the "nerve bags".... All you stated are possible factors. 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

LifeofRiley said:


> I agree completely. The fact is that for most rescue/shelter dogs to even make it to an adoption floor (or to be eligible for rescue transport) is a huge testament to their temperament.
> 
> This is sad because so many dogs become so stressed in a shelter environment that they display behaviors that are totally context-dependent. And, in most cases, these behaviors are a death sentence for the dog.
> 
> And, I would hate the adopter to come to this forum, read a thread like this, and think that there is no hope because it is all genetics. Because, in this context, more often than not, it is not!!!!


You know, while you're completely right, it honestly never occurs to me to include shelter dogs going through a temporary transition phase in the universe of possibilities that people could mean when they talk about "fearful" dogs.

It's so weird that I have this blind spot, because seriously EVERY SINGLE foster dog I've ever had was shy and/or reactive in the shelter and upon first arriving here.

For example, here's a video of Crookytail a couple of days after he got off the bus from rural North Carolina to Center City Philadelphia. He'd never seen stairs, glass doors, buses, or any common city sights before. I'm pretty sure he wasn't even allowed inside the house.






I'm just guessing here, but it's entirely possible that a lot of people new to dogs would look at that hunched body posture, averted gaze, flattened ears, and obvious unwillingness to climb up the scary stairs, and think "oh, yes, that dog is fearful."

Except he's totally _not_ a fearful dog. He was just going through the same transition phase that every other dog I got from that shelter went through. A few weeks later, Crookytail was running up and down those stairs no problem, and we used the exact same flight of stairs to tape this demo clip for a Canine Life and Social Skills class I taught that August.






It genuinely never ever occurs to me that somebody who posts about having a "fearful dog" could be referring to a dog going through that kind of transition phase. I always just assume they are talking about genetically fearful nutbags like Pongu.

Derp. Well, that's my blind spot, now you all know so you can call me on it in the future.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I didn't realize this board treated every reactive issue as genetic....I can remember posts clearly describing reactivity as being, lack of socialization, genetic, or handler/owner inexperience.....but maybe it was another forum I read this on. Oh Well, I seem to get confused quite easily these days....lol


I should add that I am really happy you chimed in on this thread. I think that the fact that you said that reactivity is not a default genetic problem will go a long way in shaping how some people respond to posts about this in the future.

Yes, in case you didn't know, you are viewed as a guru on this board


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

@Merciel, nice post! 

I think this board is a great resource. But, I do sometimes worry about what new or potential 'adopters' take away from it. 

You really do have to read here for awhile to be able to discern the fact that people's advice, on any given thread, comes from different sets of experiences.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LifeofRiley said:


> I am going to agree with doggiedad on this one. I feel that people on this forum are quick to say it is genetics... not much you can do. I do not believe that. And, I believe it tends to give the person with a reactive dog a reason not to try anymore.


I don't see that attributing a large part of temperament to genetics as being the same as saying there's not much you can do. Maybe some people read it that way, but I don't think that's what people mean when they say it. But I completely disagree that genetics has _nothing_ to do with it, as doggiedad says.

I've had a highly reactive dog, and she was lunging, barking, and hackling on her first day of obedience class, which was exactly 5 days after we brought her home. Since we'd just gotten Cassidy and hadn't done anything with her yet, she wasn't that way because of something we did or didn't do. She had weak nerves, and was pretty much a temperamental mess, that's just who she was. We sure as heck didn't use that as an excuse for her behavior and just accept it and give up on her though, I went the opposite direction and learned everything I could, and took her through many classes. We made a lot of progress too, but since she died at 4 years old from discospondylitis I can't say how far we could have gotten if we'd had more time. We spent the last 20 months of her life fighting her disease, so training wasn't a priority by then. Unfortunately, she was a physical mess too. 

Our next dog Dena didn't have a reactive bone in her body, and we didn't have a thing to do with that either, she was just easy and easygoing right from the get go.


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## GSD5150 (Apr 16, 2013)

I think genetics play a large role in this. I got Dillinger at 4months old. He was an aloof puppy, he didn't go out of his was to meet people but would gladly come to you for attention if you called him or had a tasty treat. I work at a grooming salon, picked him up on Monday and he came to work with me that Tuesday. I was working there 6 days a week and he came with me every single day. Customers always greeted him and gave him treats. People were always a positive thing as well as clients dogs that I trusted to greet him. During walks I would ASK people to pet my puppy and petsmart and the grocery store parking lots was our hang out spot until he was 8-9 months. He became very reactive and would even bark at the same customers he would see every week or two. I feel as a pet owner that I did my part in socializing him. I have the perfect job where I can take my pets to work. I have worked with him A LOT and he can now walk through crowds, go to social events and is very calm while out as well. His biggest issue is accepting touch from a stranger approaching him. Most people ask if they can pet him and I have zero shame in saying NO. There have been those " surprise" people and he handles it well but I do pull him away and try to educate people on grabbing strange dogs. Most are understanding but there's those few ignorant people that will never understand. My main conclusion after this LOOOONG rant (sorry guys!) Is that my boy is a genetic mess. He is a FANTASTIC dog with his chosen few, but has his share of health and personality issues. 

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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

where did i say genetics has nothing to do with it???? i think
people and their methods are the largest part of the problem.
would people own GSD's if they were known for being reactive
because of genetics? 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't see that attributing a large part of temperament to genetics as being the same as saying there's not much you can do. Maybe some people read it that way, but I don't think that's what people mean when they say it.
> 
> >>>>> But I completely disagree that genetics has _nothing_ to do with it, as doggiedad says.<<<<<
> 
> ...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> This is the reason so many dogs are failed. People don't go slow and put a solid foundation on the training. And most rescue/shelter dogs need time to decompress and get to know their new lives before they show who they really are.
> Slow going is the way to go for the best results.


I will say its very hard to do any training with any kind of reactive dog. Once we move and we have a fenced in secure area, we are moving forward with more advanced training. I have had him for about 2 months, so I think he is comfortable now. The two things that were his issue was cats and other dogs on leash(no matter who the dog) He is doing wonderful with the cats, a complete turn around. When I went to see him he never barked or anything at the other dogs, even when he walked past them, he was on a leash..they weren't. He was there for a while and I wonder how many dogs he seen walk past him on a leash and he was still sitting stuck in the cage? Can that do damage alone? All in all his temperament is great..he loves trying new things, loves people and kids, loves the dogs in the house. No food/toy aggression. He doesn't bark at people, actually he doesn't bark unless he is playing or at another dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by cliffson1
> I didn't realize this board treated every reactive issue as genetic....I can remember posts clearly describing reactivity as being, lack of socialization, genetic, or handler/owner inexperience.....but maybe it was another forum I read this on. Oh Well, I seem to get confused quite easily these days....lol





LifeofRiley said:


> I should add that I am really happy you chimed in on this thread. I think that the fact that you said* that reactivity is not a default genetic problem* will go a long way in shaping how some people respond to posts about this in the future.
> 
> Yes, in case you didn't know, you are viewed as a guru on this board


Is that what Cliff was saying?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I think a big part of the problem is many *lay* people don't 'believe' in the genetic component. They also attribute certain behaviors (like uncertainty, caution, etc) to "fear" and then they "comfort" the dog. They can't recognize which behaviors in a dog are genetic and which are just training issues. If the dog is adopted, they are quick to jump on the "abused" bandwagon. When you combine this with improper reaction and response by the human, you do create a reactive dog in many cases that then has to be *uncreated*, if possible. The truly genetic ones aren't helped in this scenario either, because likely they aren't managed properly or taught behaviors to replace the reactive ones. 

My dog is not reactive to people at all. He also is non-reactive to dogs now as well. (Well, we haven't had a barking on leash episode since last August, so I'm assuming it was a maturity thing --he's now two and we've met many dogs since and is fine) Lastly, he's not a tad bit reactive to loud noises at all either. Thunder, fireworks, gunshots, chainsaws, kids screaming, nothing...... I don't know if this is all genetic or a very small combination of the fact that when I got him at 9 weeks, I did not know then what I know now about genetics :blush: and I just assumed he was a clean slate for me to shape; my attitude towards all of those things was very positive and laid back, basically assuming and signaling to the pup that everything was all good. I lean towards the genetic part, since the dog I had at 21 was the same, except for fireworks and bad thunderstorms. Never got him over that (which is not the same as reactivity towards people--he was fine).


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

doggiedad said:


> where did i say genetics has nothing to do with it????


Not worded as such, but these comments certainly imply that:



doggiedad said:


> *it's the people handling the dog. they don't know how to train,
> socialize, take general care of the dog, bad trainers, no consistency
> in training or socializing.*





doggiedad said:


> *the common problem is the owner/owners of the dog*...





doggiedad said:


> reactivity, *stop blaming the dog*. start training and socializing
> from a very young age.


Nowhere in there is there any reference to the genetics that the dog came with, it's all about how the owners failed to properly train and socialize. I wish it were that simple, but it's just not.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Is that what Cliff was saying?


I should clarify the part of my post that you bolded. The way I interpreted what Cliff said was that there are several factors to consider when trying to understand the reactivity of any given dog... genetics being one, but not the only one.

But, I'll admit, my interpretation could be completely wrong : ) Maybe if Cliff comes back to this thread he will let us know.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're digging. i didn't use the word genetics because i think
people are the larger problem. that's what's implied. i think
there's more genetically sound dogs than dogs with genetic
problems.



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't see that attributing a large part of temperament to genetics as being the same as saying there's not much you can do. Maybe some people read it that way, but I don't think that's what people mean when they say it. But I completely disagree that genetics has _nothing_ to do with it, as doggiedad says.
> 
> I've had a highly reactive dog, and she was lunging, barking, and hackling on her first day of obedience class, which was exactly 5 days after we brought her home. Since we'd just gotten Cassidy and hadn't done anything with her yet, she wasn't that way because of something we did or didn't do. She had weak nerves, and was pretty much a temperamental mess, that's just who she was. We sure as heck didn't use that as an excuse for her behavior and just accept it and give up on her though, I went the opposite direction and learned everything I could, and took her through many classes. We made a lot of progress too, but since she died at 4 years old from discospondylitis I can't say how far we could have gotten if we'd had more time. We spent the last 20 months of her life fighting her disease, so training wasn't a priority by then. Unfortunately, she was a physical mess too.
> 
> Our next dog Dena didn't have a reactive bone in her body, and we didn't have a thing to do with that either, she was just easy and easygoing right from the get go.





doggiedad said:


> where did i say genetics has nothing to do with it???? i think
> people and their methods are the largest part of the problem.
> would people own GSD's if they were known for being reactive
> because of genetics?





Cassidy's Mom said:


> >>>>>Not worded as such, but these comments certainly
> imply that:<<<<<
> 
> 
> ...


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Incorrect dogs or bad handlers?

I'm not sure to be honest, I guess it really comes down to the individual dogs & handlers.

I am a novice handler and my dog is reactive with other dogs. I'm sure there are things I need to improve upon as a handler (scratch that, I *know* there are), but I socialized the heck out of my dog. 

This was a problem that was evident very early on, I'd say 9 weeks of age or so? I'm not sure if the breeder would have known about this, because the puppies were introduced to her closed pack of dogs, they hadn't had all their shots so were probably not introduced to dogs outside the pack. She did take them around to grocery stores etc. so got lots of human socialization before she came home with me.

I had her in puppy class at 10 weeks of age, grade 1 overlapped the last week of puppy class and put her into grade 2 a couple of weeks after grade 1. I took her out to flyball tournaments to see all the dogs in action, scent detection workshops, I took her to schutzhund training to watch, I take her on hikes with my friend and her 4 dogs. She was in doggy daycare for months and months, I took her to the park, by the splash pad to see kids running around and playing almost every night for several weeks, we sat outside the grocery store to see people come and go, I even took her to Bass Pro Shop and put her in a shopping cart and browsed around.

So while I do think I could be a better handler, I also think I worked pretty darned hard at socializing her.

Even her breeder told me, when I asked her what I was doing wrong, that it shouldn't be so hard. So while I may have some failings as a handler, I also think my dog is hardwired to be this way. I keep working at it, but I honestly am not sure if it's something we can overcome. I hope so though.

As for dogs in shelters, they have often come from abusive or neglectful homes and can be fearful at first, until they learn to trust again. I don't know if you can ever really get a true sense of what a dog really is at a shelter, I think they are probably scared and in survival mode.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

See that's what's got me thinking about it. All of the dogs with generally good temperaments, with handlers that have worked hard to train and socialize....yet many of these dogs are reactive. Obviously frustration plays a huge role, thresholds play a role. I am just wondering why it's so common. I've been doing some deeper digging into relatives of Odin (because he is my ideal dog and if I ever get another GSD I want one like him.) He s not, and has never been reactive, but talking to a lot of the people that own his relatives, sounds like they are all reactive. So now I'm back at square one of which lines I like....


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Yeah, I guess I feel a bit differently than some here. Likely because my own first GSD experience has been with a reactive/low threshold dog.

I do think it's more down to good genetics, than good socialization. I think a really good, experienced handler can make huge improvements with a reactive dog, but it's a reactive dog all the same. I think this says more about the handler, than the dog, to be honest. I don't think a GSD should have to be owned by a professional handler. They are supposed to be good family dogs, in addition to being able to work. Maybe I don't understand the breed as well as I thought I did.

Where I think a GSD with good nerves and solid temperament, that even a novice handler can be successful, and this is what I had in mind when I thought of what a well bred GSD should be. 

As I said, I'm a novice, so perhaps I'm wearing the rose coloured glasses. 

I do think socialization is really important, but I don't think your dog should be melting down because it never saw a fluffy Collie before, or another dog made eye contact, or because another dog is playing fetch with it's owner. My dog even started barking in the car at a husky out for a walk with it's owner as we drove past at 80kph. 

I thought GSD's were known for keeping a cool head in all kinds of new situations, but this has not been my experience, and I have worked really hard with my dog, as best as I can. She is still young, so I'm hoping things will get a bit better. Some things already have, so I just keep plugging away. And she's a good dog, I love her very much. But easy, she is not.

My friends own her half brother and he is like night and day to her. Energetic, will go all day, but calm in his mind. His littermate is much the same, and is a police K9, so he's still got the ability to work, while keeping a cool head.

Perhaps I simply had unrealistic expectations, but he is what I thought a good WL GSD was supposed to be, and I can't help but feel a bit disappointed that this has not been my own experience. We shall press on, nonetheless.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Like most nature vs. nurture arguments, this is probably a false dichotomy. We know from empirical elements that certain behavioral traits are heritable, but "reactivity" can mean such a wide variety of things for such a wide variety of reasons, it makes little sense to describe it as purely genetic or purely environmental.

It seems like in a working shepherd breed, you would have to have much more sensitivity to stimuli to detect threats- vigilance- and I often hear "aloofness" discussed on this board as being correct temperament. So, it seems very likely to me that GSDs are predisposed to reactivity the same way intelligent people are predisposed to depression. Socialization and training can't be effective unless the dog's innate drives and instincts are respected- is that what I'm hearing? Because it seems like GSDs need a particular kind of owner or they pick up bad behaviors, some of which are more "sticky" than others. 


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kaimeju said:


> Like most nature vs. nurture arguments, this is probably a false dichotomy. We know from empirical elements that certain behavioral traits are heritable, but "reactivity" can mean such a wide variety of things for such a wide variety of reasons, it makes little sense to describe it as purely genetic or purely environmental.
> 
> It seems like in a working shepherd breed, you would have to have much more sensitivity to stimuli to detect threats- vigilance- and I often hear "aloofness" discussed on this board as being correct temperament. So, it seems very likely to me that GSDs are predisposed to reactivity the same way intelligent people are predisposed to depression. Socialization and training can't be effective unless the dog's innate drives and instincts are respected- is that what I'm hearing? Because it seems like GSDs need a particular kind of owner or they pick up bad behaviors, some of which are more "sticky" than others.


Very well said! I don't anyone is saying that reactivity was purely due to one thing or the other, but for some reason people are reading that into some of the replies. :thinking:


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Kaimeju said:


> Like most nature vs. nurture arguments, this is probably a false dichotomy. We know from empirical elements that certain behavioral traits are heritable, but "reactivity" can mean such a wide variety of things for such a wide variety of reasons, it makes little sense to describe it as purely genetic or purely environmental.


I agree that it is a false dichotomy. Nice post.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

LifeofRiley said:


> I should clarify the part of my post that you bolded. The way I interpreted what Cliff said was that there are several factors to consider when trying to understand the reactivity of any given dog... *genetics being one, but not the only one*.


Absolutely, and I don't recall any threads on the board where people were implying that genetics were the ONLY cause of reactivity.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think genetics are 100% responsible, I don't want to try and shift all the blame to my dog when I know I play a role in this. I just honestly think genetics are sometimes a bigger part than the socialization aspect in some dogs.

Why is my dog so reactive when I've worked so hard with her, exposed her to so much and done so much training with her (and her littermates are much the same, and they are all in working homes), when her half brother has had very little training and socialization and is much more reliable than she is? (and his litter mates are all much easier dogs?) Is that not genetics?

Certainly she's got higher drives than he does, but I don't think they are balanced, and that is genetic, is it not? Otherwise, why do breeders put that on their websites when advertising their breeding stock? 

So I do think genetics play a HUGE roll in it. How you handle it is another thing and good handling can overcome a lot, but I don't think it can overcome everything. There is certainly no one answer that will fit all dogs. 

I don't want to make my dog sound like the devil here, she's not always foaming at the mouth. But she's a tough dog, as are her litter mates, and the breeder told me she was not going to repeat the breeding because she found the whole litter was too hard in general. 

Are people breeding too much for certain characteristics? Some of the schutzhund people I know don't seem to care about socializing or integrating the dogs into their homes, they seem to only care about performance on the field. Does that in turn mean they are breeding dogs who can perform in sport, but not in life? Certainly WL's should have strong drives, but can they be too strong to the point that they are unmanageable and can't think clearly?

I'm just asking, because I'm not really well versed in dog training or breeding (and I'm sorry if I sound stupid). I can only speak from my own experience, and my dog's breeder even said she should not be this difficult.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Blackshep I think you hit the nail on the head about a dog being cool headed. That, I think is the one thing in common, I certainly don't believe that all these reactive dogs have bad nerves. They just lack the ability to keep cool, they re hot heads! Putting it that way for me brings some clarity as to what I'm trying to get at/figure out. And really how do you teach a dog to keep a cool head?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Kaimeju, I really like (and agree with) that post. 



blackshep said:


> I just honestly think genetics are sometimes a bigger part than the socialization aspect in some dogs.


yepyep

And I think GSDs do tend to have a higher incidence of being genetically sensitive to environmental stimuli. Goes with the territory of being a herding/guarding breed... and, unfortunately, with a lot of careless backyard breeding for "protective" dogs, as well as perhaps with some sport lines. I have so little experience with sport GSDs that I'm just going by what other people have said here in that respect, but I _can_ say that I see similarly higher incidences of reactivity among some sport-line BCs.

It does seem like the ultrafast reflexes, high intelligence, and environmental acuteness prized in some lines of agility BCs can also correlate to higher degrees of dog-dog reactivity and spooky-flighty behavior, so I wonder if perhaps something similar might be in play for some of the sport GSDs. I'm just speculating; I might be completely off base. But it's something I do see occasionally in other popular sport breeds.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Merciel said:


> . . . It does seem like the ultrafast reflexes, high intelligence, and environmental acuteness prized in some lines of agility BCs can also correlate to higher degrees of dog-dog reactivity and spooky-flighty behavior, so I wonder if perhaps something similar might be in play for some of the sport GSDs. I'm just speculating; I might be completely off base. But it's something I do see occasionally in other popular sport breeds.


I would have to disagree with this statement in respect to the Schutzhund working line dog. To be successful, *from my experience*, the dogs actually have to be fairly stable to even title at a club level. 

It is very common to see someone come into a club (me included) with our first dog who ends up not having what it takes to title to an IPO 1, because we did not know what we were looking for in a dog - the genetics are so important to success in Schutzhund. Then throw in the variables like handler and helper skill levels and sometimes even good genetics is not enough. But without the genetic stability and drives it is very difficult to title a dog, even at a club level and particularly beyond club level competition (regional or national). 

Now *that has been my experience* since I got my 3rd dog, Minka in 2010. She is genetically sound and combined with experience in training my first two dogs (one who was not genetically correct for the sport and one who got injured early on) we have managed to earn an IPO 1 and I hope to put a 2 and 3 on her this season. She is and always has been a very balanced, clear headed dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JanaeUlva said:


> I would have to disagree with this statement in respect to the Schutzhund working line dog. To be successful, *from my experience*, the dogs actually have to be fairly stable to even title at a club level.
> 
> It is very common to see someone come into a club (me included) with our first dog who ends up not having what it takes to title to an IPO 1, because we did not know what we were looking for in a dog - the genetics are so important to success in Schutzhund. Then throw in the variables like handler and helper skill levels and sometimes even good genetics is not enough. But without the genetic stability and drives it is very difficult to title a dog, even at a club level and particularly beyond club level competition (regional or national).
> 
> Now *that has been my experience* since I got my 3rd dog, Minka in 2010. She is genetically sound and combined with experience in training my first two dogs (one who was not genetically correct for the sport and one who got injured early on) we have managed to earn an IPO 1 and I hope to put a 2 and 3 on her this season. She is and always has been a very balanced, clear headed dog.


I agree with you. But there are still people training their dogs with the hopes of titling when clearly the dog has issues with balance/transitioning or drive leaking. It isn't a bad thing, at least the dog is getting some work and the handler is willing to invest time. 
And the handler usually knows the dogs limits, but don't want to retire the dog and get another...they just keep plugging away.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with you. But there are still people training their dogs with the hopes of titling when clearly the dog has issues with balance/transitioning or drive leaking. It isn't a bad thing, at least the dog is getting some work and the handler is willing to invest time.
> And the handler usually knows the dogs limits, but don't want to retire the dog and get another...they just keep plugging away.


I wouldn't say I have hopes of titling my current rescue dog, maybe pipe dreams, lol. But if I don't start learning now, I will never be capable of titling any dog. My trainer was straightforward with me during our eval... During which Jack demonstrated low food drive, low prey drive, fearfulness, and reactivity when he growled (first time ever!) at a woman in a yoga class a few feet away. 

Trainer was straightforward and told me I am 3-4 dogs away from the dog I want. That means not just breeding, but handling as well. I really think there are multiple factors in the equation, and that breeding plays a huge role. I also firmly believe that training/handling plays an equally huge role... I mean Jack is only one genetically weak dog, so the next 2-3 dogs away the trainer counted must be based on *my*skill level. 

I mean, I'm not going to *retire* my rescue dog when we are both novices. If I can get this dog even a BH, I will feel like the Queen of all trainers, lol! So for us, yes, we will keep plugging away. He is working, and I am learning, and everyone wins. 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let me ask a question, there are many times a person posts a pedigree and often depending on the pedigree, the really knowledgable pedigree folks will often agree that the breeding has a high probability of reactive aggression. My question, ....what are these knowledgable people basing their opinion on?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

JanaeUlva said:


> I would have to disagree with this statement in respect to the Schutzhund working line dog. To be successful, *from my experience*, the dogs actually have to be fairly stable to even title at a club level.


Oh, I certainly don't disagree with that! I very much apologize if my previous post suggested otherwise.

The super spooky agility BCs that I was thinking of typically don't do well in their sport, either. For the most part, they're pups who got an excessive dose of traits that, in smaller doses or coupled with better internal controls, would have made them great. A lot of these dogs are coming from sport pedigrees, but not from the most experienced breeders, if that makes any sense. The ones I know best, because several dogs from the same litter trained at my old club, were from a hobby breeder just producing her first or second litter. They all went to very good working homes, but they didn't have much success as competition dogs.

So my thinking is that maybe there are parallels somewhere in the GSD world. I don't know how many there are, or whether they have any influence on what some of us see in the pet population, but I figured I'd just throw the speculation out there.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Merciel said:


> Kaimeju, I really like (and agree with) that post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The vast majority of GSDs that come to my clinic have to be muzzled to be examined. Every one of those has tried to bite at some point. Of the ones who don't need to be muzzled, most of those are so scared they are shut down in the corner, shaking like a leaf. I was just bitten by a male who seemed very friendly at first, came up to me wagging his tail, happy for me to be just touching him, then suddenly turns and almost nails my hand good. I am very good at reading dogs, and I won't say this was "out of the blue" but there weren't many signs leading up to it at all. My well bred GSD can be people reactive.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I might be way off (my IPO experience is limited to my area) but it strikes me that dogs that have "reactive aggression" or are reactive out of frustration could (and do) quite well in IPO. 

A while back I had a helper ask me about a dog who's handler was interested in checking out the club whether or not the dog was reactive, I said yes and he said "that's good." So don't really think that reactive dogs (not so much nerve bag reactive dogs) are that uncommon in the sport.

ETA: dogs that are nervy reactive from what I have seen definitely do not do well in the sport and in training I really do think that IPO exposes nerve issues. I don't mean to bash the sport, I do respect it as a sport and know that there are a lot of great dogs and handlers out there competing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KristiM said:


> And really how do you teach a dog to keep a cool head?


This is the million dollar question and I hope that someone can answer it. I think it comes with training, letting them know that you(the handler) is in charge, and I also think they have to be able to think about whatever choice they have and make the right choice. I know that my trainer now wants to let me see if mine can make the right choice and sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't, I guess that is where we step in and show them what the right choice is...this is the part that is hard if the dog has always been allowed to make the wrong choices.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

KristiM said:


> I might be way off (my IPO experience is limited to my area) but it strikes me that dogs that have "reactive aggression" or are reactive out of frustration could (and do) quite well in IPO.


Its funny that you write this, because I think mine would do very well in the sport.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ugavet2012 said:


> The vast majority of GSDs that come to my clinic have to be muzzled to be examined. Every one of those has tried to bite at some point. Of the ones who don't need to be muzzled, most of those are so scared they are shut down in the corner, shaking like a leaf. I was just bitten by a male who seemed very friendly at first, came up to me wagging his tail, happy for me to be just touching him, then suddenly turns and almost nails my hand good. I am very good at reading dogs, and I won't say this was "out of the blue" but there weren't many signs leading up to it at all. My well bred GSD can be people reactive.


By what the vets have told me where I go they have the same experience. They were thrilled at how my female acts. She is wonderful at the vet and lets them do whatever needed with no problems or a muzzle. My male is good at the vet, but he is more energetic. The vet where I got him muzzled him and then the girls that were cleaning his ears took the muzzle off. My male will mouth you in a playful way if you start poking and prodding, he cant sit still, but he's not mean about it, just very puppy like.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Let me ask a question, there are many times a person posts a pedigree and often depending on the pedigree, the really knowledgable pedigree folks will often agree that the breeding has a high probability of reactive aggression. My question, ....what are these knowledgable people basing their opinion on?


*Genetic* make up...knowing the dogs in each line and what they bring(or do not) to the breeding match, try to balance out the traits that are complimentary to that match.
It does really go back to the genetics.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

KristiM said:


> And really how do you teach a dog to keep a cool head?


IME it's doable, although god knows it's a PITA and I hope I never have to do it again.

I've had one foster who went through a phase of being seriously aggro at people (this was extra embarrassing because she would single out her targets based on skin color, and she would even go after kids who were doing absolutely nothing to draw her attention), and of course I've got Pongu the Insane. Foster dog was completely fearless and just purely aggressive; Pongu's issues are all fear-based.

What worked for both dogs, though, was a lot of "click for calm" threshold exercises and impulse control work. I'm oversimplifying, but that was the heart of what we did. Loads of impulse control _constantly_. I did a lot of NILIF, interrupted play, think-and-target exercises through increasing levels of arousal, etc. etc. The goal was always to enable them to think through whatever emotions were threatening to drown their doggy brains.

It took about a month for the foster dog to get over attacking people (but her adopters have had zero issues with her, so hooray, guess it worked) and Pongu will probably be a work in progress for the rest of his life.

I should probably emphasize that I never even _considered_ doing anything to ramp up the foster dog's reactivity issues. Ever. All my work with her was aimed at teaching her to keep a cool head. I imagine it would be extremely difficult to teach a dog like that to selectively escalate and de-escalate her aggression in a way that you would want for a bitework dog. All I ever taught her is that calmness is the correct answer _always_, not that calmness is the correct answer sometimes but explosive action is the correct answer other times. I think that would be a lot harder.

But if all you want is to teach a dog that calmness is the correct answer _always_, well, I've been able to do it a couple of times. Like I said, though, if I never have to do it again, I'll be thrilled.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I wonder how many of these dogs that are labelled 'reactive' are simply bored, and making up their own fun? My puppy could be called reactive - but give him something to do and he's a totally different dog.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Merciel, that is good to hear! I am going through this with my young dog, I hate bringing him up because I think he is an extreme example of the breed, throw in some crazy side effects from medication and an very painful spinal condition and I have a bit of a train wreck on my hands! I am working really hard on CALMNESS, impulse control and NILIF. He has had a big life style change recently and I am so hopeful that I can turn him into a calm dog. He is the definition of a "hot head" always has been since the day I brought him home. I have never met such an an angry dog lol.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

KristiM said:


> Merciel, that is good to hear! I am going through this with my young dog, I hate bringing him up because I think he is an extreme example of the breed, throw in some crazy side effects from medication and an very painful spinal condition and I have a bit of a train wreck on my hands! I am working really hard on CALMNESS, impulse control and NILIF. He has had a big life style change recently and I am so hopeful that I can turn him into a calm dog.* He is the definition of a "hot head" always has been since the day I brought him home.* I have never met such an an angry dog lol.


And I would ask, what is your dogs pedigree, KristiM?
Because YES, the dogs in his background do play into his whole being. They are who they are...we can only do so much in the shaping.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh, I never got that one to be a _calm_ dog. No no. I just got her to quit attacking innocent children on the street. 

This was the foster dog in question...





 
...and that's about as calm as she ever got. She was a small and hilarious dog, as you can see from the video, and I honestly think that is the only reason she ever made it to the adoption floor or out of the shelter alive.

She was solid muscle though. Once at Thanksgiving, while we were staying at the in-laws', she hurled herself against the basement door repeatedly and slammed it open even though my MIL had stacked not one but TWO chairs against the outside of the door to hold it shut.

Then she tore upstairs and attacked my MIL like her horrible little namesake monster. No harm done, but it made for one enduring holiday memory. To this day my MIL retells that story every year.

I spent a fair amount of time wanting to throw that dog out a window. I genuinely believe she put me through one of the hardest tests of my commitment to not using force in training. Sometimes I would very gently put my hands around her little neck and, in the sweetest possible tone of voice, act out Homer Simpson throttling Bart.

But we got through it and she ended up living happily ever after in an awesome home and then they did this to her:





 
which frankly is worse (and more hilarious) than any punishment _I_ could ever have devised.

So hey, it all worked out in the end. But no, I never got her calm. Just controlled.

/threadjack


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> And I would ask, what is your dogs pedigree, KristiM?
> Because YES, the dogs in his background do play into his whole being. They are who they are...we can only do so much in the shaping.


It really is impossible for me to say if all of his issues are him. He has a lot of health problems that I know have contributed (including being in pain for a long time without me knowing.) That being said yes, he is very quick to anger and I'm not really talking reactivity here I mean in every day life he gets super pissy about stuff really fast and that's who he is. Most dogs would deal with pain by reacting or shutting down when someone hurts them, he will internalize it and get ANGRY. Don't even get me started on what it's like taking him to the vet. I really hope that he can be calmed, he has no other choice at this point. 

Xtreme Havoc Von Den Hoehenluft

I'm really not asking this stuff in regards to havocs issues, like I said I think he is an extreme example with other complications. And yes with him it is absolutely genetic! I am not an inexperienced handler and he came with a set in stone personality at 8 weeks. It blew my mind to see that, up until then I always thought nurture over nature.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

LOL! what doesn't kill ya makes you stronger...and all that jazz. She never knew what was coming, did she?!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> I wonder how many of these dogs that are labelled 'reactive' are simply bored, and making up their own fun? My puppy could be called reactive - but give him something to do and he's a totally different dog.


I think we're talking about different things. My dog is most dog-reactive while we're doing something. I think she just gets WAY too pumped up about it and her brain switches off. Right now I have to work her alone. Even what you would think was a calmer activity like nosework, she goes bananas (she could never be a bomb dog lol) about

I really wish I could find a good trainer withing an hour of me to help me work specifically on this issue with her, because she's so keen to work, she's almost spoiling her own fun at this point. I have the name of one guy who's closer to 2 hours away, but that makes for a pretty long day and I have responsibilities at home too. I might try to figure out a way to do it though, even though it's a really long drive.

I think she's a great dog, with a good deal of potential, I just have to figure out a way of letting her realize it, but this is where I'm stuck. 

This is a really interesting discussion!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

blackshep said:


> *she's almost spoiling her own fun at this point*
> I think she's a great dog, with a good deal of potential, I just have to figure out a way of letting her realize it, but this is where I'm stuck.
> 
> This is a really interesting discussion!


I think the same thing and have voiced it to. Mine can be a great working dog in general, but ruins it for himself. I know they don't mean to, but it would be nice if they could understand. I actually tell my dog how much fun he is missing out on because he wants to be a butt head...true story, I had a talk with him and it still didn't work:crazy:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

My Male isn't reactive at all. Female you might call reactive... It's only with non-submissive bitches, so it's more just dominance behavior


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

This has been a extremely interesting thread...excellent points brought up and it's really made me think.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

There are different types and causes of reactivity. Some is genetic; nerve; threshold and some is training. 

My goal with Benny is to turn reactiveness into clear headed responsiveness. As he has matured he has learned self control because I have demanded it of him.

Most of Benny's reactiveness is rooted in excitement. He sees us headed to his favorite park and is head is out the window, excitedly barking. It's as if he gets an adrenaline rush that neutralizes his:crazy: brain. I have largely overcome this by training him that he does not get what he wants until he is calm and clear headed.

Some of his reactivity will be aggression toward large dogs who are approaching him aggressively. This is managed by focus work; not letting him look at the other dog) and sometimes creating distance.

I like that Benny is very responsive and think a GSD should be responsive which is like clear headed thought out reactivity.

Even at rest Benny is ready for action. He sleeps by the door and occasionally if he hears a strange sound will want to be let out to check the house. My adult son works varying hour and when he comes home in the middle of the night has learned to call out to Benny so he knows it is him. ( Benny once heard the front door open at 2 am and ran down the hall with a loud bark to take on the intruder only to call off at the last second when he saw it was Joey.:laugh:

You will never see Benny sprawled upside down on the couch like DH's Borzoi because he chooses places and positions that make it easier to respond. He still reacts and runs to the door when a doorbell rings on TV, while the Borzoi yawns on the couch.


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

With reactivity being such an undesirable trait and such a common complaint, it's too bad it isn't better understood.
-There are well bred dogs that aren't reactive even with poor training/socialization.
-There are well bred dogs that become reactive due to lack of proper training.
-There are badly bred dogs that will become less reactive with good training.
-There are badly bred dogs that don't get much better even with great training.
-And most commonly you have average bred dogs with average training that fall somewhere in between.

Then there are the dogs regardless of genetic type that suffer severe abuse (which itself is a form of behavior modification) at some point in their life that makes them reactive. Every person has a breaking point, and so do dogs.

So as dog people I say don't be overly optimistic or overly deterministic about what is possible to achieve with an individual dog. Don't pick one tool and think it will fix every dog problem on every dog forum. Its try the best with everything you've got and hope the dog can find its way thru.

It's been cautioned before but sometimes we think we are fixing reactivity problems with our simple little one-size-fits-all tricks but all we are doing is suppressing the external signs of it. Then you get a dog that remains calm and silent right up to the moment he "unexpectedly" bites a person or another dog.

Also, I think it should be faced that traits that make an excellent large guarding breed dog or sport dog are behaviors that our suburbanized, mix & mingle culture have labeled as dangerous and undesirable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

StephenV said:


> So as dog people I say don't be overly optimistic or overly deterministic about what is possible to achieve with an individual dog. Don't pick one tool and think it will fix every dog problem on every dog forum. Its try the best with everything you've got and hope the dog can find its way thru.
> 
> It's been cautioned before but sometimes we think we are fixing reactivity problems with our simple little one-size-fits-all tricks but all we are doing is suppressing the external signs of it. Then you get a dog that remains calm and silent right up to the moment he "unexpectedly" bites a person or another dog.
> 
> Also, I think it should be faced that traits that make an excellent large guarding breed dog or sport dog are behaviors that our suburbanized, mix & mingle culture have labeled as dangerous and undesirable.



I can personally say that I'm using every tool and trick I can. I have found that a prong and e collar causes him anxiety, so those are now off the table. An easy walk harness didn't really do much, it helped, but not like I expected it to. Positive training works well for some stuff and other stuff a more firmer approach works better. We are now mixing up positive with mild to stern voice corrections with the gentle leader. There is no way just one of those will work. The only reason I want him not to be reactive to other dogs is because I want him in an obedience class. I don't feel I would have a problem bringing a dog into the home later on, because he likes dogs, just not dogs on a leash. Even then I have never tested out what he would do if he was allowed to approach a dog that he has been barking at. My gut is telling me that he would be fine, probably not correctly meeting the other dog, but not vicious. The fear in me because I love him and don't want to lose him over something stupid puts my gut in place.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I don't feel I would have a problem bringing a dog into the home later on, because he likes dogs, just not dogs on a leash. Even then I have never tested out what he would do if he was allowed to approach a dog that he has been barking at. My gut is telling me that he would be fine, probably not correctly meeting the other dog, but not vicious.


Is there a stable, sound neutral dog you can have him interact with to test it? I've found dogs that throw calming signals yet show control and aloof behavior will settle down a dog that is on the reactive side. And remember, dogs feel our emotions down that leash much more than we imagine.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Is there a stable, sound neutral dog you can have him interact with to test it? I've found dogs that throw calming signals yet show control and aloof behavior will settle down a dog that is on the reactive side. And remember, dogs feel our emotions down that leash much more than we imagine.


I can't find anyone that will volunteer I can't blame them, he sounds vicious. It is definitely the leash thing. I can go to Petsmart and walk past there pet motel and he doesn't react at all. He cries and wags his tail, but none of them are on a leash. We watched a obedience class through the glass, he reacted, they were all on the leash. He has reacted to my other dogs in the house when they were on a leash. I have practiced with all three of my dogs...the female GSD first, he reacted like he was going to kill her, I waited until he calmed down, then allowed him to approach her, of course he went right for her face. Then I tried the golden, he reacted less, but still went for the face then the butt to greet him. Finally I tried with my oldest, he hardly reacted at all and when allowed to meet he went for her butt and he was praised and rewarded heavily. Our thinking at the time is that my oldest really is the alpha and demands respect(she gets it from all dogs to) and maybe he could sense that? My son compared him to a shining star that thinks his poop don't stink. I guess I can practice with my own dogs, but I don't know how that will play out in the real world. I know that if I'm feeling completely confident then we have no issues. We have been able to walk past several dogs with no issue. One of the dogs I seen, took a deep breath and said, he won't react, he won't react, and he didn't, even when the owner said a few words to me. The other one was a golden that came around the corner and barked in his face, he didn't do anything but look at that dog like it was crazy...definitely weird. The trainers are hoping that the gentle leader will help with him not feeling what I'm feeling.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I can only speak from personal experience in what I've raised, but I believe genetics is a much stronger factor than training.

Multiple classes, trainers, and socialization could not help my first GSD's reactiveness and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING outside our home was perceived as a threat. Walks were always completely on edge with uneasiness, and we walked the same route everyday twice a day from 8 weeks to more than a year old. We, together, eventually learned to manage and deal with her fears.

My 2nd GSD had health issues that limited his socialization. To this day he is ROCK SOLID. When he was 5 months old, we sat in the backyard and out of nowhere, the loudest crack of thunder hit. I jumped so bad I almost fell out of my lawn chair. My female nearly broke her neck bolting inside the house. His reaction? A simple head tilt as if to say, "Now, what was that?" He never even moved from the spot he was laying in. 

He is clear headed enough for a small child to grab his ears and plant a huge kiss on his nose. At the same time, a perceived threat had best beware. I can take him anywhere and he is 100% confident. I did not train this into him. THIS is genetics.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

llombardo said:


> I can't find anyone that will volunteer


Can you try a large stuffed toy dog? This is something that trainers use for threshold work if a stable dog is not available or the client dog is so dangerous that a real dog wouldn't be safe.

Put a (used) harness and tags on it so it has a little bit of "real dog" smell and looks more like what your dog might be used to seeing on the street.

This may also help you practice your own neutral responses, since you say he's less reactive when you're feeling confident. With a toy dog you don't have to worry at all about how the other dog will respond and can concentrate purely on yourself and your leash skills.

Another thing to work on might be desensitizing him to your own responses. Go in the backyard and practice gasping and tightening the leash, or whatever it is you do reflexively when you see a strange dog oncoming and start to worry (if you're not sure, have somebody videotape you so that you can see it from an external standpoint when you're calmer). Then click and reward your dog for staying calm even in the face of the usual signs of handler tension.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Also, while it's not completely on topic, since a couple of people in this thread have mentioned having fearful/reactive performance dogs, this link might be of some interest:

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH110: Dealing with the Bogeyman - Helping Fearful and Reactive Competition Dogs

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy is offering a course on "Helping Fearful and Reactive Competition Dogs" starting on August 1. I'm debating whether I want to sign up for a working spot with Pongu. On the one hand, I feel like I've got a handle on our competition problems, and there's really not much more for us to do besides continue to practice.

On the other hand, the class _is_ sort of tailor made for us, and there might be lots of new ideas that could help us develop faster. So... I'm torn. Still got some time to decide.

But anyway I'll put the link out there for anyone else who might find it of possible use.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Can you try a large stuffed toy dog? This is something that trainers use for threshold work if a stable dog is not available or the client dog is so dangerous that a real dog wouldn't be safe.
> 
> Put a (used) harness and tags on it so it has a little bit of "real dog" smell and looks more like what your dog might be used to seeing on the street.
> 
> ...


When he was originally evaluated the trainer brought a stuffed Jack Russell dog...it does look real. She put it about a half block from where we were and we took a walk. As we were walking, he put his head down, which she said was a calming signal. When we got to the dog, he nosed it and knocked it over, but never barked. I also just recently started gasping to get his attention and that actually has worked a few times. I didn't do it on purpose, it came out and I went with it when I noticed it got his attention. I haven't tried practicing the tightening of the leash, I really try not to do that, but if a dog comes up to him, I tend to do it automatically. We are in a class and have barricades up, but other people seem to lose control of their dogs. Twice now, two different men, lost the dogs leash and both dogs decided to come to my dog The first time I tightened the leash, the second time I didn't have time to, because Midnite seen the dog coming before I did...barricades really didn't help. The trainer does not think he would bite a dog, but I'm terrified he will and I'll end up losing him over it. I don't want to see another dog hurt or put him in that situation. Its hard, because I truly don't know what his intentions are. Based on his temperament in all other areas, he is a happy, playful dog. He is not toy/food aggressive, he now walks away from the cats all the time(even when they get him). I just find it hard to believe he would have it in him to hurt anything, I'm not one to be blind to things that aren't right, I just don't see it. He just isn't like that. I believe the new trainer that I'm going to go to when I move has a dog that we are going to test him with...I guess I will finally see what he does. I'm not looking forward to this ordeal. He is a VERY focused dog and he doesn't forget anything EVER.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

If he responded to the fake JRT like a real dog, then using a realistic-looking fake dog might be a useful option to pursue. It doesn't matter if he figures out that it's a fake up close; for good threshold work, you aren't going to _get_ close until he's able to completely relax and focus at a distance. Once you've got that relaxed focus almost completely reliable at, say, 30-40 feet, you can creep in to 25, then 20, but I wouldn't expect that to happen for at _least_ a couple of weeks and potentially longer.

If you can get a completely safe relaxed response at a distance (and I mean COMPLETELY safe and relaxed), then you can start bringing real dogs back into the equation. But in the meantime, and especially if you're having difficulty controlling your own automatic responses to anticipation of trouble, it might be worth drilling with a dummy at first.

Honestly, if you can't figure out what's driving his behavior, leave it as a black box mystery and just focus on addressing the symptoms. Jean Donaldson is fond of saying that training should be less concerned with the _why_ of behaviors than the _what_, since the externally observable "what" is the thing that guides the training protocols.

I don't wholeheartedly subscribe to that point of view (IMO the "why" often helps determine how you address a particular issue and can hint at what approaches are likely to work or backfire _before_ you find out via trial and error), but I do find it a useful reminder sometimes that it's okay if we don't know why the dog is doing something. Sometimes the dogs don't know themselves! I occasionally see dogs who throw off all kinds of conflicting, chaotic signals reflecting (I would guess) a state of inner ambivalence and confusion. Sometimes I think they don't know what they want themselves, and it can make reactivity worse because they're so full of internal conflict.

Knowing "why" is useful but you don't have to get too hung up diagnosing that. You can still take effective steps to address the problem without knowing the root cause, at least if you're careful about reading the dog and tailoring your responses to his.

Maybe it'll work for you, maybe not. Might be worth trying, though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Merciel said:


> If he responded to the fake JRT like a real dog, then using a realistic-looking fake dog might be a useful option to pursue. It doesn't matter if he figures out that it's a fake up close; for good threshold work, you aren't going to _get_ close until he's able to completely relax and focus at a distance. Once you've got that relaxed focus almost completely reliable at, say, 30-40 feet, you can creep in to 25, then 20, but I wouldn't expect that to happen for at _least_ a couple of weeks and potentially longer.
> 
> If you can get a completely safe relaxed response at a distance (and I mean COMPLETELY safe and relaxed), then you can start bringing real dogs back into the equation. But in the meantime, and especially if you're having difficulty controlling your own automatic responses to anticipation of trouble, it might be worth drilling with a dummy at first.
> 
> ...


Where can I get a good fake looking dog? The first pet I won't have to feed I think that you are getting at what my trainers goal is. Its for them to decided on the best choice when they are being conflicted, no matter what the conflict is. Very big on letting them think for themselves and I can see that being the goal.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Where can I get a good fake looking dog? The first pet I won't have to feed I think that you are getting at what my trainers goal is. Its for them to decided on the best choice when they are being conflicted, no matter what the conflict is. Very big on letting them think for themselves and I can see that being the goal.


Amazon or Ebay. They are Melissa & Doug toys.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Amazon or Ebay. They are Melissa & Doug toys.


Now that I am thinking about it, he doesn't react to dogs if they aren't on a leash. Just getting a stuffed dog isn't going to do anything unless a fake person with a leash is attached:crazy:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too bad Karlo isn't closer! He is so neutral to other dogs and seems to send out the vibes/ reactive dogs just stop their fussing when they focus on him. But I think I'd try to find a neutral female(opposite sex) and not an intact male to desensitize him.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

StephenV said:


> With reactivity being such an undesirable trait and such a common complaint, it's too bad it isn't better understood.
> -There are well bred dogs that aren't reactive even with poor training/socialization.
> -There are well bred dogs that become reactive due to lack of proper training.
> -There are badly bred dogs that will become less reactive with good training.
> ...



This is about one of the best and clearest posts I have ever read on the subject. It should be laminated onto a card and handed out to every new dog owner.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *StephenV*  
_With reactivity being such an undesirable trait and such a common complaint, it's too bad it isn't better understood.
-There are well bred dogs that aren't reactive even with poor training/socialization.
-There are well bred dogs that become reactive due to lack of proper training.
-There are badly bred dogs that will become less reactive with good training.
-There are badly bred dogs that don't get much better even with great training.
-And most commonly you have average bred dogs with average training that fall somewhere in between.

Then there are the dogs regardless of genetic type that suffer severe abuse (which itself is a form of behavior modification) at some point in their life that makes them reactive. Every person has a breaking point, and so do dogs.

So as dog people I say don't be overly optimistic or overly deterministic about what is possible to achieve with an individual dog. Don't pick one tool and think it will fix every dog problem on every dog forum. Its try the best with everything you've got and hope the dog can find its way thru.

It's been cautioned before but sometimes we think we are fixing reactivity problems with our simple little one-size-fits-all tricks but all we are doing is suppressing the external signs of it. Then you get a dog that remains calm and silent right up to the moment he "unexpectedly" bites a person or another dog.

Also, I think it should be faced that traits that make an excellent large guarding breed dog or sport dog are behaviors that our suburbanized, mix & mingle culture have labeled as dangerous and undesirable._


This is about one of the best and clearest posts I have ever read on the subject. It should be laminated onto a card and handed out to every new dog owner. 


*^^ I agree 100%!!*


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

blackshep said:


> I think we're talking about different things. My dog is most dog-reactive while we're doing something.


Maybe we are talking about different things, lol. My current puppy is very reactive to other dogs (barking, yipping, jumping, and chasing if possible) but if I have his frisbee in my hand, then the other dogs are practically invisible to him. 

He's reactive to people too, and the frisbee is a magic tool - I had him out late one night and I could hear murmurs coming from the field across the street. Very strange at 11pm, in pitch dark (it turned out to be some people trying to take pictures of fireflies) but the most shocking thing was when they started shouting at me my puppy didn't even bark! Of course they weren't shouting in a threatening manner, just saying how cool the bugs were, but still. If I didn't have the frisbee, which gets 100% of my puppy's attention, there'd be barking galore. I was actually very very surprised that he didn't bark at them. 

I guess I'm in the minority where I don't consider reactivity as a bad thing, and I'm not trying to get rid of it. I'm only trying to channel it into where I think it belongs. Barking isn't a bad thing if the dog knows what "quiet" means, lol. And I've already tried a couple of different approaches with dog reactivity, on previous GSDs: they both had their pros and cons. The first was teaching to ignore other dogs, and then the next was teaching a down/stay around them. This time around, I'm teaching that the other dogs pale in comparison to me. But the frisbee is my crutch, lol.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Blanketback said:


> Maybe we are talking about different things, lol. My current puppy is very reactive to other dogs (barking, yipping, jumping, and chasing if possible) but if I have his frisbee in my hand, then the other dogs are practically invisible to him.


What you're describing isn't what I'd refer to as reactivity, which is probably why you don't think reactivity is a bad thing and aren't concerned about it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What you're describing isn't what I'd refer to as reactivity...


Exactly Debbie, lol! Although I don't know what to call it: maybe undisciplined over exuberance? That's why I wanted to join in the conversation, because there must be many dogs that fit into this category as well, and offering them a distraction could be so helpful with curbing this behavior. Just because I said it wasn't a bad thing doesn't mean it's something that shouldn't be addressed, lol. 

I even took the frisbee with me to the vets office, for 3 visits, to have him focus on that instead of the other animals in the waiting room. Now he can be there without it, and sit quietly by my side - for the most part. He still whines for other dogs, but he's much much better.


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