# Getting the bite off the elbow ?



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Alright, a bit of an odd question.

I recently purchased a new jute sleeve cover for my sleeve, and the new cover has some additional thickness and padding, which the old one didn't have, which makes the circumference of the sleeve bigger.

My little Mali, Ronja, has a hard time getting a good, deep bite on the sleeve with the new cover on it and has been going for the elbow, which is (of course) less thick and easier for her to grip.

Need some suggestions for getting her off the elbow and biting in the proper area. Of course, I suppose the easy solution would be to buy a different cover ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I could be way wrong but I think most elbow bites have more to do with temperament and/or training (but I guess part of training is using the right sleeve, presentation, etc). How was she originally trained? I've seen some dogs that do other protection sports bite in the elbow or higher on the arm. How is she worked with the sleeve and what is her temperament like? When we get a new sleeve cover the dogs aren't really affected, as long as they are worked in ways that match their temperament and training and are on the right sleeve for their level. If for some reason the dog bites incorrectly (and it's not a matter of bad presentation by the helper or the handler doing something wrong), the dog is taken off the sleeve (doesn't get to have the sleeve slipped or hang on there and play tug) and we address why the biting was not correct.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it is presentation. If you have the sleeve level with your chest the dog should target the middle of the sleeve. You get more strength to drive the dog too, if the dog is there vs on the wrist area or the elbow.
This was just addressed when I trained last. 
Helper in training was not keeping the sleeve level so the dog targeted the wrong areas. 
But as Lies posted, maybe Ronja was trained on a suit.
In my old club most of the Mals couldn't bite the hard sleeves well... until they were broken in some(these were untitled dogs in the learning phase)


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

It may very well be that Ronja was initially trained on a suit and not a sleeve, that is a very good point. I have only had her for the past year and while I have been able to find out a fair bit about her background through the officers who seized her from her last (neglectful) home, there are still large gaps in her background and previous training that I may never be able to fill. 

I probably put this into the wrong forum to begin with, as she comes from a working (police) background, not a sporting background, but as most people here do Schutzhund, I felt that I would probably get the best feedback on solving my elbow problem in the Schutzhund forum. (If mods feel the need to move this, please do.)

She did do well biting the "right" part of the sleeve even if it was presented in a sloppy manner prior to me getting this new, "padded" sleeve cover. It honestly seems to me as if she cannot get her mouth open far enough to grip the sleeve with this cover on, as she will initially go for the center of the arm like she should, then re-grip to the elbow where it's easier for her to get a good grip and hang on.

I should also probably add that I'm suffering from a thorough lack of trained helpers as DH who is usually my helper is currently deployed to Afghanistan. So handler/helper presentation is likely to be a factor as well.

On a somewhat related note, I did notice that she has a difficult time with the hard plastic sleeves like the MPs use for training as well. Those seem to be thicker/wider around than the sleeve we have at home and she has a difficult time getting her mouth around those.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Are you planning on trialing this dog?

Not sure about the suit work as there are dogs that do bite high and have never been on a suit.. Could be a targeting problem.. Kinda hard to tell with out seeing the dog and helper working together..

If you think the dog is having problems with this particular sleeve why not buy another one.. I know they make the ones with plastic by the hand and elbow area so the dog only has a choice to bite center..


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

No, I don't have any plans on trialing her.  

The primary reason we are continuing to do bite work with her is because she enjoys it immensely and I like to do things with my dogs that they clearly get enjoyment from. (Just like Abby was with herding before her health caused us to stop pursuing that with her.)

I will look into a different sleeve and/or a different cover and also work more with my current helper to improve the way the sleeve is presented when we work with it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Generally speaking, dogs who bite near the hand or the elbow are feeling a little stress. Making more prey attractions with the sleeve or even asking the helper to simply pat the center of the sleeve with his hand once or twice right before he offers the bite is enough to attract the dog to bite there.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I'm not sure that's the case in our situation, Vandal.

Ronja does go for the "right" part of the sleeve on her bite, but once she grips it, it's like it's uncomfortable/too thick for her to get a good bite and hold on, so she tends to re-grip on the elbow and there hangs on come **** or high water.

When we had the different, thinner cover, previously, she would get a good grip at the center of the sleeve and hold on, not regrip like she's doing now. Even if someone was the helper/decoy who'd never done it before and presented it the wrong way.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

If she bites correctly at first, and then moves to bite on the elbow, I would throw a long line on her and put tension on the line so she has to stay on the grip she initially takes and cannot choose to relocate without giving up.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In the pics of her doing bitework in your album, it looks like she's often on or near the elbow. It may just be habit for her?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> If she bites correctly at first, and then moves to bite on the elbow, I would throw a long line on her and put tension on the line so she has to stay on the grip she initially takes and cannot choose to relocate without giving up.


I will definitely try that! 



> In the pics of her doing bitework in your album, it looks like she's often on or near the elbow. It may just be habit for her?


While there aren't a lot of photos in that album (usually I don't have anyone to take pictures when we do bitework, as hubby is the decoy and I'm handling the dog), so those may not be the best to go by, but I see what you're saying that she tends to naturally go more toward the elbow than the center of the sleeve. 

Should I just leave it alone, then, or is there a sensible way to improve where she's biting, such as the different type of sleeve suggested above that would "force" her to bite at the center?

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and buy a suit ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is just me guessing, but if her training was on a suit and they weren't particular about where she bit, she might be going towards the elbow because as you can see in your pics, it's softer/more "give" there. She can get a mouthful and really rip at it. I know what you mean about the police sleeves being wider/more round than SchH sleeves.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I think in a situation of playing around with dad that the usual reasons for a dog to go to the elbow (avoiding stress) don't apply. But presentation, and encouraging her to bite the correct area (even petting it like Anne said) can still help. 

Looking at photos in the album, in most the sleeve cover was not attached to the sleeve properly, leaving several inches of jute at the elbow area just flopping around. That is going to attract a dog, especially one playing around in prey, to the elbow due to the extra prey movement from the flopping jute, and because it's thin and soft and very easy to grip compared to the rest of the sleeve. When the cover is attached properly and secured to the upper arm of the sleeve, that area is much less enticing to the dog. So she may just be in the habit of biting there because it's been more rewarding in the past, and that is coming through more now due to a new sleeve cover making the rest of the sleeve more difficult to bite. 

New sleeve covers can be much harder to grip than older, more broken in ones. So one thing you might want to do with the newer sleeve cover is to take it off and break it in a bit yourself by flexing it, tossing it around, bending it and adding artificial wear, and then put it back on and see if softening it like that doesn't make it easier for her to bite.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Since your not gonna trial the dog and this is something fun for her to do.. Then I don't know if I'd really worry about it too much.. 

If it's something that does bother you then you can start teaching her to target center and stay there.. Back tying her can help or like someone else mentioned.. Keep some tension on the line when she grips center and only reward her for when she's on the sleeve correctly.. Also having a softer sleeve never hurts.. Might encourage her to not move her grip..

Not every dog is comfortable biting a family member either.. So even though the helper is smiling and non confrontational, there still can be stress..


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Looking at photos in the album, in most the sleeve cover was not attached to the sleeve properly, leaving several inches of jute at the elbow area just flopping around.


I don't want you to think that we train with the sleeve cover not being attached properly. The photos in that album are from two separate instances, once in the back yard and once at Langley AFB (fenced-in field). 

The first set of pictures from the back yard have the cover not attached to the sleeve. We'd just gotten Ronja and hubby wanted to see whether she would have any interest in bite work, since we knew she had training in it - but at the time did not yet know what the training and her background were exactly. (We did not find out much more about her until a few months ago.)

He'd grabbed the sleeve, which was in the closet with the cover off because we'd used it at a display recently to show how the sleeve is built and then how the cover goes onto it. He just slipped the cover on to try and see if she'd be interested in the sleeve at all.

That's why it's not on.  That's also why those pics aren't really a good indicator of training we've done then and since, since there are so few of them and I usually have nobody to take pictures when we do any sleeve work. Make sense?

Just wanted to clarify why the cover isn't on properly. 



> So one thing you might want to do with the newer sleeve cover is to take it off and break it in a bit yourself by flexing it, tossing it around, bending it and adding artificial wear, and then put it back on and see if softening it like that doesn't make it easier for her to bite.


Will definitely try that! 

I'm meeting up with my current helper tomorrow to train in obedience (with both her dog and mine) and we'll try to get some sleeve work in using the long line to see if we can re-target her to the right part of the sleeve.


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