# Early heat...oopsie pregnancy or falsie?



## Avmo (Apr 26, 2012)

I've had my girl for almost 3 years now. I've never spayed her as I've never had a reason to and have always been able to get through each heat cycle pretty painlessly. They've *always* been 6 months apart, in this entire time. 

Well I was visiting my sister, who has a male GSD that's intact and is 18 months old. I wasn't concerned with having them together since they love playing and spending time together. It had been 4 months since her last cycle and she wasn't exhibiting any type of symptoms of being in heat. The only thing I noticed was that there had been a few male dogs hanging around the house but the person that lives upstairs from us has two females that are not spayed so I figured one of them was in heat. 

Well anyways, I had the dogs inside while I ran outside to ask my husband a question. I came back inside and my female and my sister's male were tied together. I was in utter shock as I hadn't realized she was even in heat! She's very dominant and won't let any males even go near there unless she's in heat. This was April 8th. 

I didn't really notice anything at first but I still started doing research on whelping and canine pregnancy. I came to the conclusion she's due around the 6-11th of June. 

Her breasts are now really swollen. Her abdomen is thicker than usual (although she was a wee bit overweight to begin with so it's hard to feel anything as she's not exactly "toned"). Her behavior has shifted and is now very loving. At about week 3 she was vomitting. Week 5 she really didn't feel like eating much, now her appetite is HUGE. She'll eat anything and everything and has even been begging from us (something she knows is a huge no-no!). She's been a little more aggressive towards our pup who is 17 weeks in the past few days and shows no interest in playing. All she does anymore is sleep or lay in her kennel.

Well today she started leaking this creamy, yellow tinted from her nipples. I read that if it comes this early it could be a false pregnancy. 

My question is, do you think it is a false pregnancy or the real thing? Is it too late to go in for an ultra sound or too soon to go in for an x-ray? I can post pictures of her stomach if that'll help anyone? 

I would really appreciate no rude comments. I know that this is not responsible. If I had known she was in heat, she wouldn't of been left unsupervised with a male dog.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sounds like your girl is getting close. Hope you are prepared.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

She needs vet care ASAP. IF she's pg, please consider a spay/termination if the vet feels it's safe, & not too late. 

I've had several friends with oops litters, including purebred oops litters. Despite large, healthy litters none sold more than 1-2 pups. (And one was promptly returned) The rest they couldn't even give away. Truly. Despite paying lip service to smart, ethical puppy placement how likely is it that they insisted on good homes who would spay/neuter/contain to avoid making the same mistake yielding yet another (or 10) oops litters?

Of the unplaced pups...some were stolen. Given the prevalence of dog fighting in the neighborhood I hope they weren't stolen to be used as bait dogs...Or sold to research labs. The others were packed off to the shelter. 

This isn't meant to be rude, harsh or judgmental. I've made more than my share of mistakes. A couple of 'em were so monumentally stoopid I still blush to remember them. However, please be realistic. Unless it's a very small litter, pups are almost bound to be given (or sold for a few bucks) to anyone that will take em off your hands. You will be in no real position to pick & choose 'good homes'. (Even those who are have had some ugly surprises) Nor will you be well positioned to require the pups be spayed/neutered. In all likelihood pups will be having more pups in another 6-8 months. And on & on.

Unless it's impossible, or your vet considers it ill advised, please consider spay termination (assuming she's pg). IF that's not possible, your girl still needs vet attention promptly. I wish you both well.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Why do you suspect a false pregnancy? The female was bred and tied... I bet pregnancy. Visit a vet to figure out your next move.


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## Avmo (Apr 26, 2012)

I suspect false pregnancy because she shows symptoms of pregnancy each time she exits heat even though she's never around male dogs. I thought I had mentioned in that in my first post but after re-reading realized I had accidentally omitted that.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Get xrays. Only way to tell for sure.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> Get xrays. Only way to tell for sure.


+1 to this. I hope everything works out for you.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

IF she routinely has false pregnancies that's something else that s/b discussed with your vet. Her health & well being might depend on being spayed. Please discuss it with your vet ASAP. IF she's pg you either need to opt for a spay/termination ASAP or you need to get her quality medical care before the pups come.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

She is about 7 weeks along. No way would I recommend a spay/terminate right now. It would be more stress on her now. Let her go the additional two weeks and have the babies.
An xray at this time will show skulls and spines, so you will know approximately how many babies, although its always a guess in case babies are hiding behind each other.
My bet, she is pregnant, the babies will grow for another week, then get ready to be born. Most growth is between 6 and 8 weeks.
Get her to a vet for an xray and checkup before they are born, then get prepared.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

You def want a vets help here if shes pg. I have heard stories of the moms dying even to seasoned breeders. You do not want that to happen. I am not trying to scare you, I simply wish to inform you of the risks. Sometime a C section is necessary to save both mom and pups. Please take the advice and get her to the vet asap.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not understand the need for vet care. This isn't a puppy, it is a bitch at least three years old, and bitches have been having puppies without the aid of a vet for centuries. 

If you have a good vet, let them know when whelping is imminent so that they will be prepared if you have an emergency. You have been doing some research? Good. I hope you have a book that gives you a good whelping section, that is clear when to call for help if it becomes necessary. Keep reading whatever you can get your hands on, and have that book around so you can look at it frequently as she gets closer.

If you want to x-ray, you can. It is not necessary. It can tell you approximately how many, but there is no guaranty that the number will be accurate, so if your bitch has produced the number of pups or even more, and starts assuming the position, believe that there is probably yet another in there. 

Reduce the stress level if at all possible. Keep children, other pets, and outsiders away for now. Set up in a quiet corner, a sturdy box and spread a thick carpet of newspapers in it. It is best if this is close to the exit you want your girl to use to go potty, because she will be oozing fluid, probably for a week or more, and you don't want for her to have to travel the length of your tan living room carpet to get out to potty.

If you are using a utility room for this, a good baby gate for the door is an excellent idea. Otherwise, you might want to invest in a couple of x-pens. 24" is a good size because it is easy for you to step over. But at eight weeks the puppies will be climbing over this. So, a 30" is also a good idea. 

Once the puppies are on the ground, and you feel confident that you have x-number of puppies, then you will need to work to find homes. If you have a good GSD rescue in your area, you can call them and explain the situation, and explain that you are only looking for help in placing the puppies once they are at least eight weeks old, and that you will be taking care of the puppies until they are in their new homes, and that you will have them checked by a vet and given their first shots. They may want for you to promise to spay your female. And they may not. I would not worry too much about finding homes for the puppies, but you want to find good homes, and a rescue might be able to help in that way.

Good luck and let us know if you have any questions. There are people here with a lot of experience with puppies, and they can help you.

By the way, it's time to let your bitch get fatter. The babies grow the most in the third trimester. Sometimes it makes sense to switch your bitch to puppy food. If not, then add some egg, yogurt or cottage cheese and meat to each kibble meal. If it is false, you can take it off of her later, but right now she needs food because if there are babies in her, they are taking what they need.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Narny said:


> You def want a vets help here if shes pg. I have heard stories of the moms dying even to seasoned breeders. You do not want that to happen. I am not trying to scare you, I simply wish to inform you of the risks. Sometime a C section is necessary to save both mom and pups. Please take the advice and get her to the vet asap.


Yes, a bitch can die, but it is not all that common, and I am not sure pre-natal vet care would make any difference whatsoever. Generally, whelping is done at home. What the OP needs to know is when to stay home, when to cheer-lead, what to do when the pup is born, and when to put the bitch in the vehicle, driving and calling the vet to let them know you are on the way. 

I take my girls to the vet for a brucellosis test and vaginal culture prior to breeding, and they do not see the vet again until the puppies are about 7 weeks old if I choose to bring her with. I do not know that the vet really does all that much in the area of pre-natal care. They may palpate to look for pups -- but it is too late for that. 

In fact, my girl went off her feed, and I knew she was indeed pregnant, and I decided to take her to see the vet. I told him she was pregnant, it was yet early. He palpated, and said her spleen was enlarged. He bullied me to x-ray her because he was thinking hemangio. I said again she is pregnant. But since I was not at the time familiar with hemangiosarcoma, I got nervous and let him x-ray. He had me scared to death, and sent me to a specialist for an ultra sound. That vet concurred when he felt her, and performed the ultrasound and then informed me that my bitch was pregnant. More than one puppy, ended up being just one, it grew very large and a C-section was required because she started labor and did not have the pup. The pup was lost. And, my bitch hemorrhaged the next day. I got her to the vet and she was ok, but I definitely had more problems because I whisked her away to the vet, when she was perfectly fine, just pregnant.

This is not the same as what happens with a human pregnancy where the baby is in there for nine months, and prenatal care includes vitamins, physical check ups, and checking for problems with the baby. My guess is that the vet will tell him to put her on puppy food and charge him 58$ for the advice. More if they x-ray.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

selzer said:


> I do not understand the need for vet care.


I'm not recommending the vet for the bitch so much as for the OP...
She does not know if it's a false pregnancy or real one. She says the bitch has a history of false pregnancies. I recommended the owner to go to the vet to get her questions cleared up and to have a support system in place in case something does go wrong. By her own admission, she has little experience with this so she would greatly benefit from getting some definite answers from a vet and xrays. I think a reproductive specialist type vet would help alleviate some concerns and clear up OP's doubts. I understand your stance, but if this person has the finances, I think she would benefit from veterinarian assistance. What's the harm in taking her in, getting xrays and exam done on the bitch and have questions answered?


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## Avmo (Apr 26, 2012)

Thank you all for the advice. I will call the vet tomorrow and let them know that she is most likely expecting and I'll call them if there's any issues. As far as I have seen so far if she goes through active labor for over an hour and no puppies are produced, I should call? I've also seen that I should wait 2-3 hours before going so I'm not entirely sure. There's so much literature with so many different theories and view points. I've also read that since she was only bred the one time she has a higher chance of having a small litter? Is that true?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Avmo said:


> I've also read that since she was only bred the one time she has a higher chance of having a small litter? Is that true?


I think it has more to do with _when _in the cycle the mating occurred, but generally I've heard that multiple breedings increase the chances of a mating taking place.


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## Avmo (Apr 26, 2012)

Ah okay. I haven't a clue where she was in her cycle since I wasn't even aware she was in it. By chance, does anyone know how common it is for bitches to go into heat that early? Is it common? I seen somewhere that it can vary by a month or so but I didn't ever see any mentions of 2 months off their schedule.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Avmo said:


> Thank you all for the advice. I will call the vet tomorrow and let them know that she is most likely expecting and I'll call them if there's any issues. As far as I have seen so far if she goes through active labor for over an hour and no puppies are produced, I should call? If your bitch is straining and pushing for an hour, and no puppy, get her in.
> 
> I've also seen that I should wait 2-3 hours before going so I'm not entirely sure. Ok, this is what is probably going to happen. Your bitch will start nesting maybe a week early hard to say. Her temperature will work its way down, probably around 98, and then come up again. Check twice daily. It might be 101.2 in the morning and 102.1 in the evening, and then the next day 101.4 in the morning and 102 in the evening, all normal. The next day 100.2, and then back up to 101.8; then 99.8 and 101, then 98.6 and 97.9 and at that point, whelping will probably happen within 24 hours.
> 
> ...


The bitch determines the number of puppies by how many eggs there are to be fertilized. The dog provides enough sperm to produce thousands of puppies in every injection. What might make a small litter other than the make up of a bitch, is if you breed early and most of the sperm has died off before the egg is ready to be fertilized, or perhaps if you breed later than ideal, and only a couple of eggs will be fertilized. Hard to say where your bitch was in her cycle, but my guess is that she was ready, and chances are you will have a healthy sized litter. Sometimes puppies are aborted and resorbed by the bitch if there is undue stress on her. That can make a smaller litter.

Do you know how many pups were in the litter when she was born? It is not a perfect science, but sometimes a bitch will follow her dam's tendency toward small or large litters. 

I think that breeding one time is a higher incident of missing the window altogether. If she is pregnant, you have made the window, and barring something causing her to abort, she should have a regular sized litter for her, and as she has not been bred before, who can tell what that is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Avmo said:


> Ah okay. I haven't a clue where she was in her cycle since I wasn't even aware she was in it. By chance, does anyone know how common it is for bitches to go into heat that early? Is it common? I seen somewhere that it can vary by a month or so but I didn't ever see any mentions of 2 months off their schedule.


I have to cut out the newsy responses. If the bitches upstairs were in heat, they could have brought her in. Yes, she can be 2 months off schedule.


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## Avmo (Apr 26, 2012)

She came from a litter of 15. Well 16 but one was born dead. The other 15 survived.


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## Avmo (Apr 26, 2012)

She came from a litter of 15. Well 16 but one was born dead. The other 15 survived. 

Thank you for that walk through! Would you mind if I also contacted you with more questions? I'm sure I'll be over flowing with them in the next several weeks.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

You will want to start taking her rectal temperature twice daily about a week before her due date. Look on line for a chart to track this. Or if you are good with excell you can make your own. I found a nice one I use. Get a digital thermomoter and KY jelley, some baby wipes to clean her up. A kids swimming pool works well for a whelping box. It cleans up well and can disinfect it. Puppies can stay in this until about 3 weeks old, but dont be suprized if they climb out sooner. An ex-pen is great at this time. I actually get my puppies trained to a litter box as well. Google is your friend at this point. There is a mastiff breeder that has a great system for potty training her puppies and it works well. Good Luck and keep us posted. 
p.s. you should be able to feel puppies moving about in her belly


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I firmly believe that an inexperienced person with an inexperienced bitch should see the vet, especially given the bitch's history of false pregnancies. Selzer, given your own disastrous experience with Odessa's litter I'm surprised you'd advise differently. 

Other compelling reasons for vet care NOW are:
1) If problems arise in the middlie of the night it's good to have as much documentation on the bitch & her pups as possible.

2) Most vets are more likely to respond to after hours emergencies if they have provided recent care, ie prenatal care for pregnant bitches.

3) Given her history of false pregnancies it's important to know that she is pregnant. IF not, it should be determined what is going on with her.

4) The bitch was part of a very large litter & could well have a larger than normal litter.

5) The vet can advise her of problems that commonly arise, how to prevent them, what to do if there are complications.

6) The vet can educate her regarding appropriate behavior of the bitch post partum. Appropriate early care of the pups is vital. The vet can advise her as to how to handle it if an inexperienced bitch needs help or isn't showing appropriate maternal responses.

Even most experienced breeders I know consult the vet when their bitches are pregnant. It wasn't all that long ago that people delivered at home with little to no prenatal care. That was usually adequate for healthy women with normal pregnancies. Unfortunately, once complications arise it's can be too late to rescue the situation, endangering both mother & child. The situation with bitches & pups isn't that different.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

RubyTuesday said:


> I firmly believe that an inexperienced person with an inexperienced bitch should see the vet, especially given the bitch's history of false pregnancies. Selzer, given your own disastrous experience with Odessa's litter I'm surprised you'd advise differently.
> 
> Other compelling reasons for vet care NOW are:
> 1) If problems arise in the middlie of the night it's good to have as much documentation on the bitch & her pups as possible.
> ...


All great points...

Plus, if I didn't spay my bitch KNOWING that it was the only responsible way to prevent an unwanted/planned pregnancy, then I didn't recognize my dog was in heat, plus then entirely missed the subsequent pregnancy..........

Then I'd say there was also a good chance I'd be missing any signs of concern in that pregnancy or/birth. Since either of those can mean a dead bitch and/or dead pups I would want the vet intervention as soon as I did realize my dog was pregnant.

At best I'd find out it was a false pregnancy after all and leave her at the vets for a spay that day.

Win/win for all and no further chance of more unwanted dogs down the line.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I have had bitches bred one time have a huge litter, and bred three or four times have one puppy. How many eggs are there to be fertilized are how many babies she will have.
I suggested the vet if she wants xrays to give her a guess at how many. An ultrasound will also give a guess, but that is what it is a guess.
I never took in my girls before they whelped unless I suspected something was up with the pregnancy, some breeders I know take in every girl two or three times during pregnancy... Its up to the owner to decide, whatever makes her comfortable. Plus, some vets seem to just blow off a pregnancy and don't know anymore than the average breeder about whelping issues. Some vets are very experienced. I always want my vet to know when the girl is due so I make sure they will be there and aware. I also recommend a vet visit at least close to whelping to ask questions.. Sometimes the internet gives "too" much information.
I suspect in a couple of weeks, the OP's girl will pop out a litter. Then she will have 8 plus weeks of caring for the litter and trying to place them. I hope she has had OFA done on this girl, I assume the sire didn't as he was under two, but that will make the babies a bit easier to sell.
Unplanned litters are not good, selling puppies can be really hard. 
Truthfully, this is the exact reason I opt/suggest for spaying if you do not have a quality proven bitch to breed, are not activally breeding/showing/performance and are not 100% on top of of that girl and her heat cycles. They may go 6 months on the dog for 4 cycles, then have a short cycle. .. And that my friends, is when the person makes a mistakes and now has a litter of puppies that were unplanned and unexpected.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wyominggrandma said:


> Truthfully, this is the exact reason I opt/suggest for spaying if you do not have a quality proven bitch to breed, are not activally breeding/showing/performance and are not 100% on top of of that girl and her heat cycles. They may go 6 months on the dog for 4 cycles, then have a short cycle. .. And that my friends, is when the person makes a mistakes and now has a litter of puppies that were unplanned and unexpected.


Me too :thumbup:


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Having whelped several litters myself I would HIGHLY recommend getting her in today for an xray.

If there is only one pup she might not start contractions and that could result in death for the pup and possibly Mom. I went through that with my first pregnant bitch. Luckily she survived but I spent an agonizing 6 hours trying everything I could to save the pup only to have it die in my arms.

Another reason for xrays is to have a general count of how many pups she's expecting. That way if you and the vet counted 7 pups on the xrays and she only has 5 and then stops contracting - again, you know to get to the vet right away.

I xrays ALL my pregnant bitches. The cost is worth it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Me too :thumbup:



This is exactly why I also recommend spaying either before or shortly after the 1st heat.
It's just too darned easy to have the "oopsies". 
Most people are not prepared for the work it takes to raise and properly place a litter of 8 or more puppies


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Unless you have the perfect set up where there is NO way a dog can get to your girl in heat, like inside a locked room, behind doors and in a crate, never take your girl outside during heat and check everyday to make sure she is not in heat, or not coming into heat whether she was in heat a month ago, you can't 100% say your unspayed girl will not get bred.
Girls come into heat unexpected all the time, I can't even count on how many people bring their girl into the vet clinic and say" she was in heat 2 months ago and is now gaining weight, but there is no way possible she got bred" and find out they are having a litter in a week or two. 
When I was showing dogs all the time and had intact males and intact females, the males were kept in different yards... Because I had females of different ages, one could just come out of heat and bring another in to short cycle ,and even though I was diligent to always check, I did not want mistakes. When I did have girls in heat, they had a separate yard, enclosed kennel with brick sides and they never never were outside in the kennel alone. Visiting girls were kept under lock and key and always walked to kennel, put in kennel, walked out of kennel and put back into kennel room in crate. I will also admit, in all my 30 plus years of breeding I did have an oops breeding.......... I spayed the girl immediately because I was already planning on spaying her anyway, was scheduled to be spayed that following week. She was barely 8 months old, had come into heat at 4 months and was in heat 4 months later, surprised the heck out of me, but taught me a big lesson. No matter how careful you are, you can screw up.. Everybody screws up. I was just smart enough to see it happen and do something about it. Not everyone is, they feel they can keep an intact female around and never have an issue... Or worse yet, keep an intact male and female together and feel they can control it.
Years ago, the norm was to spay and neuter around 6 months old.Female dogs lived long lives, had no issues and everyone was happy. Now, according to supposed "studies, etc" everyone has changed their way of thinking. Don't spay/neuter until fully grown, don't ever spay/neuter for their health, etc. "I can keep my intact dogs apart, I won't have oops litters, I will never let my girl get pregnant" and the statements go on and on. 
The average person living in a home in a busy neighborhood is not equipped to keep intact dogs, but expecially girls around without issues. Sometime the girl is going to have to go outside to potty, a wandering male can get to her. Put the girl in a kennel in the yard and a dog will get her while you are at work. Not many people can be home to keep an eye 24/7 on a girl in heat. There are exceptions to this and more power to you. 
But, if less people kept intact girls because it is the "thing to do nowdays" and instead spayed them, there would be less puppies turned over to shelters/rescues because less would be born.
Plus, and this is a big plus to me, I can't imagine why anyone would want to have a bleeding smelly girl in the house for minimum of three weeks every 5 or 6 months just because the "new thoughts and ideas" say to keep them intact for their health.
Guess my girls that I have always spayed(except the ones I showed) must not have read the studies, they are healthy, have good growth, and have always done just fine being spayed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Not many people can be home to keep an eye 24/7 on a girl in heat. There are exceptions to this and more power to you.
> But, if less people kept intact girls because it is the "thing to do nowdays" and instead spayed them, there would be less puppies turned over to shelters/rescues because less would be born.


This exactly. 
This is also why, when newbies come on asking about the "right time" to alter, I would always suggest "now" or "as soon as your vet recommends" but I often get lambasted for that. 
When the health issues are about equal with early spay vs. spaying after 1-2 heat cycles, with the added benefit of no oopsie litters, the choice is easy.
And for boys, yeah ideally we'd all wait until they "matured" but honestly they do just fine if fixed earlier than later - and again, there's no chance of accidental impregnation.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

My husband had his girl Bridget for 16 years and was never fixed. She also never had a litter. My husband is lazy when it comes to dogs. He loved her and she was his girl but when it comes to flea and tick prevention or going to the vet he rates poor at best. Though, she never had fleas or ticks so maybe its not really a problem. At any rate, when we were out side she was with us and when we were inside she was with us. He didnt take her places with him so that limited the problem, we also have a 6 foot privacy fence to keep dogs out of our area. I will also add that she wasnt the type of dog that could climb a 6 foot fence.

I am torn on weather or not I would want to fix this new pup to be honest. First we dont know if we are getting a male or female. Second, I will want to do training and what not with the dog. If it turns out to be a top dog I might want to let the breeder bred them. In any event all of my dogs have been fixed up to now. I just dont want to take the risk personally.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If I owned a bitch that could be pregnant, I would want to make sure she was in perfect health before she whelped. Make sure she didn't have any physcial problems that might become worse with the birthing process. Heart conditions, etc. 

A good friend of mine (who is a vet tech) has a bitch with a slightly tilted vulva. I would have never noticed it until she pointed it out to me. It might not be a problem with the actual breeding, but could be a significant problem with whelping. My friend is one of those folks who will not alter her dogs unless it has a significant medical problem - she deemed this as being significant enough to not chance any oops litters and had her spade. 

The point being, I would have never noticed the tilted vulva. And even if I did, I wouldn't have been concerned - I'm not an expert.


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## dogmama340 (Apr 18, 2012)

I have always had female dogs and they have all been fixed. My friends that have females not fixed, they have to deal with the monthly period and all the other "fun perks" of not being fixed. Can't take the dogs to dog parks or places where they can encounter other non fixed males. Unless you plan on breeding your dog there is no reason not to fix your animals. Like Bob Barker always said " Please spay and neuter your pets"


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Unless you have the perfect set up where there is NO way a dog can get to your girl in heat, like inside a locked room, behind doors and in a crate, never take your girl outside during heat and check everyday to make sure she is not in heat, or not coming into heat whether she was in heat a month ago, you can't 100% say your unspayed girl will not get bred.


I agree with this. Conversely, I've come to believe the hormones are important beyond their role in reproduction. These concerns became more than academic as I might be adding a young female within the next year or so. After consulting a couple of breeders I decided I'll opt for a uterectomy which will keep her hormonally intact but unable to reproduce. I prefer the uterectomy to tubal ligation b/c it will also eliminate the risk of pyometra. 



> Plus, some vets seem to just blow off a pregnancy and don't know anymore than the average breeder about whelping issues.


Absolutely! But this is just another reason to consult with a vet sooner rather than later. IF my vet appears to lack knowledge about something so crucial &/or is unwilling to educate me then I know I need a different vet & pronto.


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## dogmama340 (Apr 18, 2012)

Narny said:


> My husband had his girl Bridget for 16 years and was never fixed. She also never had a litter. My husband is lazy when it comes to dogs. He loved her and she was his girl but when it comes to flea and tick prevention or going to the vet he rates poor at best. Though, she never had fleas or ticks so maybe its not really a problem. At any rate, when we were out side she was with us and when we were inside she was with us. He didnt take her places with him so that limited the problem, we also have a 6 foot privacy fence to keep dogs out of our area. I will also add that she wasnt the type of dog that could climb a 6 foot fence.
> 
> I am torn on weather or not I would want to fix this new pup to be honest. First we dont know if we are getting a male or female. Second, I will want to do training and what not with the dog. If it turns out to be a top dog I might want to let the breeder bred them. In any event all of my dogs have been fixed up to now. I just dont want to take the risk personally.


From your previous posts and your current post, it sounds like you are going to be the sole owner and master of this dog, is that correct? If your husband is not on board with helping take care of a puppy/dog, then maybe you need to sit any talk about who will care for what with the dog. If he was lazy with his own dog for 16 years, what makes you think he will not be lazy with this dog. 
Since you are paying a lot of money for the puppy, you want to get the most out of her. I would highly consider getting the dog fixed so you do not have to deal with all the things that come with dogs in heat. That is just my opinion.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Unless you plan on breeding your dog there is no reason not to fix your animals.


Not true! There are excellent reasons to keeps dogs intact beyond reproduction. There are also good reasons to alter beyond birth control. Responsible owners should make informed, intelligent decisions. These decisions won't always be the same for different people or different dogs.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

dogmama340 said:


> From your previous posts and your current post, it sounds like you are going to be the sole owner and master of this dog, is that correct? If your husband is not on board with helping take care of a puppy/dog, then maybe you need to sit any talk about who will care for what with the dog. If he was lazy with his own dog for 16 years, what makes you think he will not be lazy with this dog.
> Since you are paying a lot of money for the puppy, you want to get the most out of her. I would highly consider getting the dog fixed so you do not have to deal with all the things that come with dogs in heat. That is just my opinion.


That would be the long and short of it. I will be able to have the dog at my hip all day long so that will be good. If I pee, the pup will come too. I will also do the feeding, vet care, potty training, crate training, and taking the dog to the trainers and/or working on other forms of training. 

My husband just has a farm mentality. Dogs are dogs and thats that. To me, I am not spending 1500$ on a dog from a quality breeder just to have it tare up my house and/or not get vet care and get sick and die. I probably will fix our dog so its never a problem. Thats been my mentality up to now anyway.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I would venture to guess the average dog owner is not responsible enough to keep intact pets.
This is my observation after 10+ years in rescue, and 3 years as animal control, visiting hundreds of shelters and talking to at least 1k owners. 
Many think if a dog has AKC papers they are almost obligated to breed it.
Many think they have a wonderful breeding prospect no matter the temperament or health of the dog, or what reg. papers it has, or even if it has none. 
Some just like puppies. Some want to make money.

Those are just the ones who breed their dogs deliberately.
Then there's at least 10 more oops for each deliberately breeding. 
It never ends.


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## dogmama340 (Apr 18, 2012)

Narny said:


> That would be the long and short of it. I will be able to have the dog at my hip all day long so that will be good. If I pee, the pup will come too. I will also do the feeding, vet care, potty training, crate training, and taking the dog to the trainers and/or working on other forms of training.


Best of luck to you. Sounds like you have your work cut out for you and your family. Will your kids be involved in any of the training? Our kids helped out and it taught them how to be responsible and also how to teach in a positive manner, versus just yelling to get the dogs attention or for bad behavior. 
I am sure your husband will come around once he see's that cute little fur ball.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Msvette2u, those owners are also the ones who blithely ignore all advice to spay, neuter, train, housebreak & contain. For some, perhaps most, education is key. However repeating the same things over & over won't effect a different outcome with these people, other than some might become stubborn & more deeply entrenched in their resistance.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Having whelped several litters myself I would HIGHLY recommend getting her in today for an xray.
> 
> Another reason for xrays is to have a general count of how many pups she's expecting. That way if you and the vet counted 7 pups on the xrays and she only has 5 and then stops contracting - again, you know to get to the vet right away.
> 
> I xrays ALL my pregnant bitches. The cost is worth it.


Csabre stopped after 4 or 5 pups, Lee took her into the vet knowing the x-ray had showed at least 8.
More live pups and  the last born dead.

Without knowing there were at least 8 the end result could have been much worse and I might not have Kaos.

Please get her in for an x-ray


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

I will agree that dogs have been whelping pups for as long as there was a dog to do the whelping... so a VERY long time. However I also agree that you cant know to much when it comes to this. This isnt nature takes its course and only the strong survive, this is a case of this dog did the dirty with another dog and now they have to try and protect the mom and then the pups. 

IMHO if this happened to me, my first and MAIN PRIORITY would be to my bitch. God be with the pups because I will be with my bitch. Not saying I would wish bad things on the pups or anything, but they just wouldnt be my main priority is all. First you get the mom through it and then deal with the pups.

Just my 2 cents.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> I firmly believe that an inexperienced person with an inexperienced bitch should see the vet, especially given the bitch's history of false pregnancies. Selzer, given your own disastrous experience with Odessa's litter I'm surprised you'd advise differently. see below
> 
> 
> Other compelling reasons for vet care NOW are:
> ...



Be surprised if you like, Odie came to me days before she whelped and I had her to the vet for major gas, prior to whelping, and still had to rush for an emergency C. I saved just one pup. 

Odessa's next litter, was also a problem, she is more the exception than the rule. She went into labor early. There was absolutely NOTHING a vet would have done prior to prevent that from happening as a matter of course. They cannot palpate your bitch and say, she is due on the 23rd. They cannot x-ray your bitch and say they are due on Friday. They can guess by whether there are skeletons and skulls and how defined the ribs and spines are -- one gal on here was almost convinced her girl was NOT pregnant because she x-rayed and they said nothing. Must have x-rayed too soon. But the bitch WAS pregnant. How exactly did going to the vet serve her???

I am sorry, but no, I do not take a bitch to the vet prior to whelping (other than pre-breeding health checks) unless I am expecting problems. If I ever breed Odie again, then I will do the super-progesterone test that will tell the exact date of ovulation so I will know exactly when she should have pups -- no vet would have done that as a matter of course, sorry. Now we know. None of my other bitches require this level of monitoring of the progesterone. 

You really cannot go by the day they were mated because that was most likely NOT the day she ovulated. Since they already do not know that, and there is no way to tell that, even if this bitch has the exact same issue that Odie has, her vet can do NOTHING, for that problem.

As for x-rays, if you never intend to breed the bitch again, then go ahead and x-ray. By this point the level of x-ray _should_ not hurt the puppies. But there are reasons not to x-ray the female. We try not to x-ray ourselves all that much, and specifically if we are pregnant. Our bitches are x-rayed for pre-lims, for ofa's, before litters, often after a litter is born to ensure no retained puppy -- in my opinion more important if the bitch runs a temperature the next day or two. And x-raying prior does not mean you will get and accurate count. 

I x-rayed prior a few times. 

Arwen, litter 1: they said 7, there were 10.
Arwen, litter 2: they said 8 to 10, there were 14.
Jenna, they said "lots", and there were 10.
Babs, they said 6, there were 8. 

If Babs for example stopped at 6, and I thought kool, all done. And she got a little sick the next day. I would think, they said six, there are six, I shouldn't have to worry. The vet might not worry because they said six, and there are six puppies. And I could LOSE her because we are oh so very sure she is done. 

The fact is, you monitor the bitch, is she eating, is she drinking, are the puppies holding their own, or gaining weight, what is her temperature? If she has an infection from a retained placenta or a pup still in there, she will show signs and get her to the vet fast. That is what you do whether or not you x-ray prior. Just because they said seven and seven came out does not mean she did not retain a placenta, and it does not mean she does not still have a puppy in there.

About false pregnancies. Heidi has been bred a bunch of times, every time she has a false pregnancy. She has never had puppies. Too bad, because I would have wanted one of them, she is a special bitch. But the vet has not done anything to figure out why she is having false pregnancies. I am not sure what they would do. I suppose I could have taken her to the repo vet a few hours away to get to the bottom of it. What would they do? Open her up and see if she has endrimetriosis? I suppose. She does not have bad heat cycles, and she comes back from the false pregnancies, and she has them whether I have bred her or not. Doesn't matter. My vet is not worried about it. If I bring it up, they will just say they can spay her. Whoo hoo another bitch gets spayed. 

Frankly, I think that its six or 1/2 dozen the other. If you walk into the vet and say, "oops, my friend's dog, got my bitch pregnant I think," they are going to recommend spaying, regardless to how dangerous it might be for your bitch. They might do an x-ray for the added cost to confirm. But if you tell them you don't want to spay her, they will treat you like all the other people who come in and say, "gosh, I didn't want for it to happen, but, it just so happens, that my friend whose dog just happens to be the same breed, and intact, and we left them together while we went outside and smoked a joint -- who does that, take your dog over to someone else's house and then leave them totally unsupervised so that they can get tied?, but whatever, now we think she's pg and we think that spaying now would be like killing puppies, so we want to have the litter, so what should we do?" 

If the bitch is having a false pregnancy, no way would I spay now. Everything in there is all blown up. The time to spay is about 2-3 months down the line when things are back to normal. Then you will have less complications, and the bitch will be under anesthetic for less time, which means less complications. If you spay now, they will be in there longer tying off bleeders, etc, and the risks are much higher.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok got a bit newsy. 

To the OP, of course you can ask questions within the next few weeks. I am a bit of a rebel though, and do not always agree with the common viewpoints. 

Narny, I agree that my first priority is my bitch. It hurts to lose puppies, but the bitch is definitely first. However sometimes going to the vet is NOT the best bet. Sometimes you tell them she is pregnant and they say enlarged spleen and do things they should not do to a pregnant dog. And because your bitch is more important than puppies you go ahead with them. I expect that pre-natal vet visit costed me about $2000 dollars and at least two puppies.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

I think there is a lot of expense and prep work in having a litter..
why go through that without knowing for sure puppies are coming?


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> Ok got a bit newsy.
> 
> To the OP, of course you can ask questions within the next few weeks. I am a bit of a rebel though, and do not always agree with the common viewpoints.
> 
> Narny, I agree that my first priority is my bitch. It hurts to lose puppies, but the bitch is definitely first. However sometimes going to the vet is NOT the best bet. Sometimes you tell them she is pregnant and they say enlarged spleen and do things they should not do to a pregnant dog. And because your bitch is more important than puppies you go ahead with them. I expect that pre-natal vet visit costed me about $2000 dollars and at least two puppies.


I posted before I read this post- and I am sorry for yours and others bad experiences with going to the vet..It is only my personal opinion that I would want to know..for sure..before I started preparing with all the needs of having a litter..but that's just me..not trying to argue with anyone..


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Selzer, my vets have been nothing like your experiences. The vets I use consider educating owners a vital part of their work. This inexperienced owner has a potentially pregnant inexperienced bitch & should seek the advice & care of a vet ASAP for the welfare of her bitch as well as that of the potential pup. As others have noted there are numerous reasons for this.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> Unplanned litters are not good, selling puppies can be really hard.
> Truthfully, this is the exact reason I opt/suggest for spaying if you do not have a quality proven bitch to breed, are not activally breeding/showing/performance and are not 100% on top of of that girl and her heat cycles. They may go 6 months on the dog for 4 cycles, then have a short cycle. .. And that my friends, is when the person makes a mistakes and now has a litter of puppies that were unplanned and unexpected.


Exactly why I feel uncomfortable when people tell pet owners NOT to spay their females young. There are just too many opportunities for an "oops" litter to leave a bitch intact until she is 2 or 3 years old. I've said it over and over--very few people are responsible enough to manage an intact bitch without there being an accidental litter at some point. Case in point.

Don't mean to pick on the OP--just saying, this is what happens when people perceived to be "experts" (vets, breeders, etc) tell pet owners to wait to spay/neuter.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> Selzer, my vets have been nothing like your experiences. The vets I use consider educating owners a vital part of their work. This inexperienced owner has a potentially pregnant inexperienced bitch & should seek the advice & care of a vet ASAP for the welfare of her bitch as well as that of the potential pup. As others have noted there are numerous reasons for this.


Have you been in this position and did you go to your vet for information?


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

selzer said:


> Have you been in this position and did you go to your vet for information?


If the OP is the same kind of inexperienced owner that I am, I would DEFINITELY go to the vet and get that x-ray, and have my dog checked over. As you mentioned Selzer, you would only go if you thought something was wrong. However, I wouldn't even have enough experience/knowledge to tell me what is to be expected, nevermind what is wrong. The vet can at least look at the bitch and say, this is normal for her age/pregnancy. Yes, you can read a book, but to have someone confirm what you're reading is probably useful to a first time owner. For instance, I read up pages about going into heat...but I still wasn't sure when pup started drippin blood if that was heat. If I didn't call my breeder and almost send her pictures of Puppy's girl parts, I'd be at the vet. If I were a more experienced owner, this definitely wouldn't have been necessary. But the OP sounds as clueless as I do, and I WOULD go to the vet.

In terms of vets being educational:

I've never gone to the vet for breeding, but when I took my rabbit to the vet, she demonstrated how I should be feedin my rabbit antibiotics, how I should be cleanin the wound, how I should be monitoring discomfort, signs that my rabbit is deteriorating, other signs of aging and disease to look for. I think a good vet should serve this role. The good owner would follow-up with readin and questions, but the good vet should initiate the flow of knowledge. 

Just my inexperienced opinion.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Selzer, what situation? A pregnant bitch? No, never. The situation of needing/wanting information on my guy's health issues & care? Absolutely.

Just a few examples:
Ruby's HW
Simba's thyroid, heart & bp problems
Brighid & da Vinci's special anesthesia needs
da Vinci's excessive water intake (thankfully he was that kind of vet. Some brainstorming from both of us resulted in more extensive testing that showed da Vinci _didn't_ have kidney/adrenal problems)
Huckleberry's bladder stones
Herbie's blockage
Cochise's seizure 
Cochise's initial cancer diagnosis
Cochise's autopsy results

In general:
Senior care
Spay & neutering
Dental care
Pest control
Diet

My vet's have guided & educated me through all the life stages of my pets. For this reason, if I was a breeder, I'm certain they would do so with the pregnancy & delivery as well. They actually enjoy someone eager to learn who pushes for more info & doesn't hesitate to question them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

marshies said:


> If the OP is the same kind of inexperienced owner that I am, I would DEFINITELY go to the vet and get that x-ray, and have my dog checked over. As you mentioned Selzer, you would only go if you thought something was wrong. However, I wouldn't even have enough experience/knowledge to tell me what is to be expected, nevermind what is wrong. The vet can at least look at the bitch and say, this is normal for her age/pregnancy. Yes, you can read a book, but to have someone confirm what you're reading is probably useful to a first time owner. For instance, I read up pages about going into heat...but I still wasn't sure when pup started drippin blood if that was heat. If I didn't call my breeder and almost send her pictures of Puppy's girl parts, I'd be at the vet. If I were a more experienced owner, this definitely wouldn't have been necessary. But the OP sounds as clueless as I do, and I WOULD go to the vet.
> 
> In terms of vets being educational:
> 
> ...


And my vet would definitely demonstrate how to inject medicine orally or in a muscle or in an ear or eye. That is normal for most owners, and a vet expects to show owners how to do the regular maintenance their dog requires. But breeding dogs in another ball game. 

I don't know what percentage, but vets see bitches in trouble, and they will do c-sections, but natural pregnancy and whelping, I have no clue how many of them have any experience at all. They may administer oxytocin if the bitch is in trouble, and they have to do it because they must x-ray at that point to know that there is not a pup blocking that could cause a rupture. They WILL give you advice, and doctors and vets need for clients to be confident in them, so they aren't going to tell you that they have never done this before or aren't sure. 

If you want whelping and raising puppy advice call your breeder -- they have experience with whelping and raising puppies. If you cannot call your breeder, contact a local GSD club and ask for the names of some members who are breeders. Tell them how you got their name, and ask them some of the questions you have after you have done some reading on your own. 

Vets recognize breeding as a business. They will have breeders as clients, and these people they can have a good working relationship with. Many of them do pro-bono (for free) work for local shelters, spay/neuter and humane euthanasia, and they are unlikely to be doing what people who want to breed dogs should do for themselves -- learn about what is going to happen, research.

I definitely agree with and suggested calling your vet when whelping is imminent to give them a heads up in case you have a problem. I know I called my vet during my first litter and said, "all I see are toenails" when the seventh pup came out without a sack feet first. They said, back toenails or front toenails -- huh??? Have you ever seen toenails on a tiny shepherd paw? They talked me through it. And I expect that the op's vet will talk him through an issue if there is one. But spending a ton of time with all kinds of may-be scenarios, I just do not see that happening. Or explaining what to do with the puppies once they are born. They may say, make sure she cleans them off and their airway is clear, and they are eating good. But they are not going to go into weighing the puppies, how much they should lose or gain in the first few days, cutting the umbilical cord and tying it off if necessary, cleaning newspapers out of the box, making sure if you are using blankets or sheets that a pup does not get wrapped up in one and sat on or suffocated, not to use a heating pad or you will roast the puppy, using a heat lamp/what temperature the puppies should be at. 

Vets really do not make a lot of money for the amount of education they have. They need to see way more clients than doctors because they have tons of overhead, and can only charge so much. They NEED to keep it short and simple with people. And overwhelming people is a big mistake anyway. Breeders on the other hand, their specialty is breeding. Most GSDs are born without C-sections, and natural births are what most GSD breeders are experienced with. But they can also tell you when to call in a vet. They can suggest vitamins or supplements, or food choices to have on hand or feed your bitch that is specific to our breed and not dogs in general as a vet's would be. 

I am not totally against an x-ray, but I am cautioning not to rely totally on an x-ray.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> Selzer, what situation? A pregnant bitch? No, never. The situation of needing/wanting information on my guy's health issues & care? Absolutely.
> 
> Just a few examples:
> Ruby's HW
> ...


All of those are normal things that vets handle for you and you should ask questions about them.

And I too question my vets on a variety of topics. Sometimes I agree with them. Sometimes I don't. Sorry. A vet has to have such a wide knowledge base, not even sticking with just mammals, but they have to know fish and birds and reptiles, etc, etc, etc. There is no way for a vet to know everything there is to know about everything. Sorry. I save my breeder-vet questions for problems, c-sections, tube-feeding, worming, vaccines, etc. I don't think they are the best people around to educate people on normal whelping and raising of a litter. 

If you have a behavior problem, you might go to a vet to rule out a physical problem, but then go to a behaviorist or trainer to deal with managing the problem. 

We call the vet when there are issues with the pregnancy, whelping, puppies because that is where veterinary science comes in. The act of breeding, whelping, is not really something that should need a vet, unless you must do an AI (vet is optional), or C-section -- my mother actually asked me if I could do one now that I watched one. I told her exactly what I thought about that, or other serious issue. And then yes, you ask lots of questions and learn all you can, and the vet will teach.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Ha, I had to show my vet how to do an AI on a bitch. He had never done one, never seen one done........ Only read the book.
I have years and years more breeding experience than my vets do. I would not go to my vet for breeding/whelping advice , but would of course for surgical help.
But, an inexperienced person should go to their vets if for nothing else to establish a "might need you"type appointment.
I agree, the best place to get help is with an experienced breeder, your dogs breeder or another breeder that you know and trust. However, some might buy their puppy and have no further contact with their breeder so they have nobody to ask question.
Or don't want to get chastised by their breeder for having made a mistake.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wyominggrandma said:


> Ha, I had to show my vet how to do an AI on a bitch. He had never done one, never seen one done........ Only read the book.
> I have years and years more breeding experience than my vets do. I would not go to my vet for breeding/whelping advice , but would of course for surgical help.
> But, an inexperienced person should go to their vets if for nothing else to establish a "might need you"type appointment.
> I agree, the best place to get help is with an experienced breeder, your dogs breeder or another breeder that you know and trust. However, some might buy their puppy and have no further contact with their breeder so they have nobody to ask question.
> Or don't want to get chastised by their breeder for having made a mistake.


With Heidi, we had to AI because she was small, too small for the male to penetrate. Probably something else there, or maybe our timing has been terrible because no puppies -- could have also been the male, as the dog has yet to produce puppies, and has a problem, though we tried a male that had had pups too. But whatever. She is five now, will be six in August so, I am done trying with her. But, the first time we did the AI at the vet. And she stopped collecting while the boy was not even close, luckily she did check for sperm in her microscope. So she collected more, and still they wasted a lot. Two days later she did some stuff differently. (I think she read up on the procedure, but I could be wrong.)

We tried it a couple of times at the vet. And the stud owner's friend (also a breeder) did the AI for one heat cycle. So I said vet is optional. If you can tube feed a puppy, you can AI a bitch. There are things you need to know, but I think I could manage that, except not on my own, some things are a two person job. And yet another reason, I really do not want to be a stud dog owner for outside bitches. I did not complain about the price of AI, the vet deserves every bit of it. 

I would go for the x-ray, and that will let the vet know what you are dealing with and it should be understood that the people may need to call with questions or concerns, or need to come in for an emergency, might mention it. I guess I do not like the idea of walking into the vet, saying audit my dog, which might make them try to find something, anything, and put the dog through unnecessary stuff, like the x-ray/ultrasound and nearly a splenectomy. I guess I have never heard of pre-natal vet care for dogs.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The OP is not an experienced breeder. Prior to this oops litter she wasn't a breeder at all. It's impossible to know what kind of relationship she has with her vet. Seeing her vet prior to the bitch whelping cannot possibly cause any harm & could prove invaluable to her, the bitch & the pups (assuming the bitch is pregnant)

Selzer, the issues I listed are all as 'normal' as pregnancy & delivery. However, my vets provide much more than a normal amount of time on in depth education for those clients who are interested. I would expect them to provide at least as much time evaluating a pregnant bitch & helping me prepare for the delivery. I'd also avail myself of the expertise of experienced breeders as well as independent research. Using any one of these doesn't preclude using the others.

The experienced breeders I know have their bitches medically evaluated prior to being bred & still utilize prenatal as well as postpartum vet care. This includes those who are physicians. In most cases it probably isn't necessary but in the case of a problematic pregnancy it helps to stack the deck for a good outcome for bitch & pups. The OP can most definitely use every bit of help & expertise that's available.

The tricky part of the OP's situation is that there is nothing that guarantees this will be a normal whelp. Provide adequate food & shelter & a normal whelp takes care of itself. IF it's not a normal whelp things could go downhill & FAST.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I would get a vet visit in. I know I can feel puppies and hear them with a stethoscope. Also, the vets office will have prior knowledge that her bitch is pregnant (if she is) and the vet on call will have any information gathered during the visit in her file. They will know ahead of time they have an inexperienced owner and bitch, and may prepare themselves ahead of time (however that might be). Heck, the OP might find out their vet is not on call for emergencies, or doesnt handle whelping emergencies. Ya never know.
It may be too early for an x-ray anyway. Do the visit, see what they say, and make your own decision. If for nothing else, but to ease your mind that she is or isnt pregnant. Then we go from there. Any more conversation is pointless until we know for sure or not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> The OP is not an experienced breeder. Prior to this oops litter she wasn't a breeder at all. It's impossible to know what kind of relationship she has with her vet. *Seeing her vet prior to the bitch whelping cannot possibly cause any harm* & could prove invaluable to her, the bitch & the pups (assuming the bitch is pregnant)
> 
> Selzer, the issues I listed are all as 'normal' as pregnancy & delivery. However, my vets provide much more than a normal amount of time on in depth education for those clients who are interested. I would expect them to provide at least as much time evaluating a pregnant bitch & helping me prepare for the delivery. I'd also avail myself of the expertise of experienced breeders as well as independent research. Using any one of these doesn't preclude using the others.
> 
> ...


Well, in my case it did cause harm. 

If the bitch picks up canine herpes in the office, that can take out an entire litter of young puppies. Most dogs have had canine herpes, and a fever of 103 kills it, so your dog has an off day, or goes off its feed for a day, or you never even realize the dog is sick. But dogs that have had it can shed it for quite some time, so they are contagious. A puppy does not reach adult temperature for about three weeks. If the puppy gets this at say 1 week, they will die. The whole litter. I know someone who lost a litter to canine herpes. 

Most breeders do not hang out in vet offices with young puppies or pregnant bitches. They go if they must, and will be hyper-vigilant to avoid germs, and to avoid stress. Taking a healthy bitch and her puppies to the vet after whelping is terribly risky and stressful. Taking a bitch prior to whelping has risks as well. But the chances are that the dog will not contract anything. And if it is necessary, we over-ride the risk. If we need to know about the puppies, we go ahead. 

We have absolutely no reason to believe a healthy three year old bitch is likely to have complications with her pregnancy. Can she? Yes, ANY bitch can. But I would be more concerned with an 8-10 month old bitch, or a 5 year old bitch having her first litter, or a bitch who is over 7. 

The OP might be feeding an excellent food to her dog. We don't know. The vet might tell her to go to Purina Puppy Chow, or Science Diet Puppy. Good idea? I don't think changing her kibble at this point would be a good idea at all. Why introduce stomach upset? 

Other than getting a ball-park figure of how many pups and confirming pregnancy by x-ray, I just cannot see any reason whatsoever to take a healthy bitch to the vet after she is pregnant and before she whelps. I think there are plenty of ways it can be harmful, especially if for the bitch, the vet is not a comfortable place. Minimizing stress is the way to go from here on out for the bitch. If they tied on 4/8 she should be far enough along for the x-rays to show spines and skulls, so if that is the way the OP wants to go, she should go for it. That will at least tell her whether or not to set up a whelping box.

We do not know what kind of relationship she has with her vet, and herein lies the problem. People will generally listen to vets. And vets give bad advice as well as good advice. If you don't have any experience, you will not be able to judge. Most vets are not breeders either. They can give bad advice. Like WyomingGrandma said, she had to teach her vet how to AI. I just watched a vet tech teach a vet how to check for testicles -- they are not breeders. (This vet also told me for quality, I would have to switch to Purina, OK) They do not necessarily know any more than the OP about what is normal for a GSD who is whelping a litter.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The pups don't go to the vet unless there's a reason. Worming, dewclaws & initial shots are all administered by the breeder. Nor does the bitch go immediately.

Canine herpes is usually sexually transmitted in adult dogs & then passed to the pups in the birthing process. Are you saying your bitch had sex at the vet's office? IF the pups contracted canine herpes during birth the bitch most likely was previously infected through one of her sexual encounters. 

Although I saw speculation of canine herpes I never saw where you sought or received verification of that. Frankly, your vet failed you & Odessa by sending you home without adequate information as to what to expect following a c-section & when to implement supplemental feeding. 

Confirming the pregnancy & assessing the probable size of the litter are among the prime reasons to consult her vet asap. In that case she'd be remiss not to take the opportunity & get additional help & guidance from her vet. She can also determine ahead of time what to do if the bitch develops complications. That most don't simply isn't good enough. 'Most' people never died of smallpox or polio & yet they developed vaccines.

Recommendations to seek vet care assume she's chosen a skilled & knowledgeable practitioner. Vets aren't always right, but the vast majority that I've known give far less shabby advice than discussion board members. Vets absolutely should know more about a GSD in whelp than the OP. It's truly sad for the dogs if vets in your area are as uninformed & uneducated as the OP. (No offense intended towards the OP. She doesn't have a veterinarian's education, license or experience)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

From Canine Herpes Virus: Symptoms, Treatment, and Vaccination on MedicineNet

Canine herpes virus (CHV), also known as “fading puppy syndrome,” is a viral infection that affects the reproductive organs of adult dogs. While adult dogs infected with CHV usually do not show any symptoms, the infection is the leading cause of death in newborn puppies. One puppy in a litter may be affected, and death may occur abruptly, with little or no warning, or an entire litter may perish within a 24-hour period. If the disease is contracted when the puppies are older than three weeks, it is often less severe. Older puppies have a much better chance of survival, but may have long-term effects of a persistent CHV infection.
*How Is Canine Herpes Transmitted?*

Canine herpes virus lives in the reproductive and respiratory tracts of male and female dogs. In adults, *the disease is transmitted via aerosol and direct contact, including sneezing, coughing, nosing, sniffing, licking and sexual activities between an infected and an uninfected dog.* Puppies usually contract the disease in the birth canal or from nasal and oral secretions of the mother shortly after birth. Puppies can also spread the virus to one another. Just because one puppy in a litter is infected with CHV does not mean they all are.
*What Are the Symptoms of Canine Herpes in Adult Dogs?*



Often there aren't any symptoms
Occasionally raised genital sores may be seen
Abortion
Stillbirth
Kennel cough
 *What Are the Symptoms of Canine Herpes in Puppies?*



Sudden death of newborn puppy
Weakness, lethargy, crying
Lack of suckle reflex/appetite
Painful abdomen, bruising of the abdomen
Soft, yellow/green feces
Respiratory difficulty, nasal discharge
Hemorrhages, such as nose bleeds and small bruises
Older puppies may develop nervous system abnormalities, including blindness and seizures
********************************************************************************************************

Leading cause of death in newborn puppies. 

Sometimes less is better. Not always, but sometimes. It is bloody amazing that our parents and grandparents were able to shove a box in the corner and let the bitch get on with it, without ever taking her in or worrying about the multitude of problems. Sometimes with our poking and hovering and worrying we make it so much worse on the female. She should not need a veterinary license or training to whelp a litter.

I have been with maiden bitches with their puppies and it is amazing how they do know what to do with the puppies. They are given good instincts.

I am not sure why you keep bringing up Odessa. She was seen by veterinarians prior to whelping, and for the c-section, even though I had her for only a week. I have had a problem with just one bitch out of five, and it was NOT due to a lack of going to the vet, or calling and asking for help, telling them what was going on, following their advice.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I may be old school but I don't care how many pups an x-ray shows....not accurate. Call your vet and let them know what is going on, if your comfy waiting take her the morning after delivery to check for pups and stuck placenta's. Do find an emergency clinic if your vet isn't 24 hours and be mindful of her behavior. Hard to miss a bitch in distress though it is hard to miss a heat too.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I have to say, too, I always think it's amazing when we get called to a litter of pups somewhere w/mama. I've been more than once to a building where a mom crawled under it, in 12" of space, and gave birth to a healthy litter. One such site was so dusty the puppies were like power puffs when you'd touch them. 

Other sites include a pile of brush/branches and trees that mom went under, all the pups were fine; a tree stump a mom hollowed out and gave birth to a litter alone in a large open area; an outbuilding that we ended up having to steal a puppy and bait a live dog trap with the puppy; a row of trees and hedges, same situation, had to steal a puppy out of her nest and bait the trap with the puppy. 
Live squealing puppies work better than food every time 

That said, if it was my girl, I'd know the route to the pet ER, and have the vet on standby in case of a stuck puppy. We've had more than one call from the vet clinic when a mama went into labor, puppy got stuck and the owner could not afford a c-section. 
Oh, and start a fund right now for a potential c-section. Just be aware that's but one potential complication - for every litter born alone out in a field, there's probably 12 more that did have complications


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Selzer, you brought up canine herpes in conjunction with the loss of your pups. Was there ever a confirmed diagnosis? Given the incubation period of the virus she almost certainly would have needed to have been infected prior to coming over. 

FTR, I believe you take good care of your dogs. You're also well positioned to make an informed decision as to how much vet care you want/need for your pregnant bitches. However, your situation is night & day compared to the OPs. You have knowledge, experience & background she's utterly lacking.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> Selzer, you brought up canine herpes in conjunction with the loss of your pups. Was there ever a confirmed diagnosis? Given the incubation period of the virus she almost certainly would have needed to have been infected prior to coming over.
> 
> FTR, I believe you take good care of your dogs. You're also well positioned to make an informed decision as to how much vet care you want/need for your pregnant bitches. However, your situation is night & day compared to the OPs. You have knowledge, experience & background she's utterly lacking.


No, I don't believe it was canine herpes. I think the mother was totally stressed out due to being shipped overseas (timing was due to blizzards over there and other problems), having a massive gas attack, change of environment, change of food. She never did get good milk, I had to tube feed that pup the whole way, though she nursed and nursed on the mother. I tried going off the tubing and no chance she could not even hold her body weight without my food. Odessa has been a sweet heart with everyone, airline people, my vet, the ER vet, just awesome temperament, but it was an awful lot to put her through, and I still don't know why the milk wouldn't support life. 

I brought up CHV because it is one of the many things hanging out in vet offices. Everyone worries about Parvo. But CHV scares the heck out of me. And yet if there is a question, a possible issue, I get my girls in because I am not a vet, and I want a team on it, if there is going to be a problem. 

As I already said, I am not against an x-ray. But what I am concerned with is the expectations of the OP when she walks in there, saying whoops and expecting the vet to run a bunch of tests, tell her exactly what to expect, and what to do in case of whatever goes wrong, and how to go about what she has to do. Maybe vets are different in your neighborhood, but unless you have information going into this, I just don't think they are going to give her much more than a "yes, she is pregnant, switch her to puppy food, call the ER if it's after hours." And the opposite is just as bad, discussing breach presentation, placentas attached, missing, dystocia, and the list goes on and on; how to prepare, what to do with each pup, what to do the next day, what to look for, eclampsia. A book will tell you exactly what to do, what to look for/be conscious of, how to set up a box, reasons behind what you should and should not do. You can take it in chunks, and you can refer back. I have several, and always at least one sitting next to the whelping box. 

I have taken girls in the day after because of fever, and looking for a retained pup or placenta. The only think I can remember the vet saying was that she has a huge job in front of her. You cannot over-feed her at this point. 

I have been around the block a few times, but that doesn't mean I am not going nuts when I have someone whelping a litter. It is terribly stressful. Sometimes I think the dogs are having less stress than we are. But you have to stifle it, be reassuring, be present, be upbeat for the sake of the bitch.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Any news?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Update?


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