# No No NOO!!! Chasing and snapping at the dogs and only a year!



## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

I took my 1 year old PB black female shephard and my 10 year old off to the park and dont know what happened….
*but my female started snapping and chasing down other dogs.…. *
When we first arrived, She got snapped at by one of the dogs as she got a little assertive as soon as she arrived. It seemed after that it was her mission to keep going up to that dog so she did and snapped a bit but was still mindful. Then after about half and hour 3 other dogs showed up and she was nervous and while the dogs were introducing themselves one of them she got assertive with and then snapped at it and it took off with her running after it snarling and snapping and I had to call my dog! I was so humiliated. My h was hollering at me to leave and I just thought she would be okay and she was not. I let her go and after a minute or two she went after that same dog again. My h was so mad and wants to muzzle her and if I have to I will be so embarassed. She is not stupid at all so any ideas of how to stop this horrendous issue so no one scatters when I show up at the park again would be greatly appreciated. I need a Caezer Millan miracle.:help:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The best way to make sure this doesn't happen again is to stop taking her to the dog park. I'd be pretty peeved if I were at the park with my dogs and someone else's dog ran at them snarling and snapping. Wouldn't you be if it were another person's dog doing that to one of yours?


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## Melissa98409 (Jun 17, 2013)

I go to the dog park a lot with my dog and have noticed that GSD's don't play the same way that other dogs do. They are "mouthy", "nip" at each other (very oral players...is the best way I can describe it). Some people don't take well to that. They think they are being agressive. With Jericho, he will sometimes pick out a dog that is kind of timmid and just be a total jerk to the poor thing. For that he get's bitter apple and a "break" from playing. Usually, that is enough to divert his focus away from that dog and back on the one's who enjoy playing with him. I wouldn't muzzle your dog at the park, but maybe if the park is really busy be ready to leave early. I would still try and see if it's going to be a good play day, but be prepared to leave if you have to. I also go to the same dog park every time, just so the crowd is more predictable and will be familiar with how your pup plays. I think it's really important, for Jericho at least, to go and play with the other dogs so he learns how to play respectfully with other dogs.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

I don't go to dog parks. They were created for the humans, not dogs. Most of the time they are just free-for-alls with dogs who are amped up w/ pent-up energy and owners who usually don't have a clue about managing a dog. 

There are other ways to socialize a dog. I decided that introducing my dog to a strange, ever-changing pack is not one of them. 

I don't think there is anything really wrong with your dog that needs fixing. What is wrong is how unnatural dog parks are as a socializing ground for our companions.

Do a search on how to socialize your dog and I reckon there will be good advice that pop up here. Good luck! It is all about learning.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Melissa98409 said:


> I go to the dog park a lot with my dog and have noticed that GSD's don't play the same way that other dogs do. They are "mouthy", "nip" at each other (very oral players...is the best way I can describe it). Some people don't take well to that. They think they are being agressive. With Jericho, he will sometimes pick out a dog that is kind of timid and just be a total jerk to the poor thing. For that he get's bitter apple and a "break" from playing. Usually, that is enough to divert his focus away from that dog and back on the one's who enjoy playing with him. I wouldn't muzzle your dog at the park, but maybe if the park is really busy be ready to leave early. I would still try and see if it's going to be a good play day, but be prepared to leave if you have to. I also go to the same dog park every time, just so the crowd is more predictable and will be familiar with how your pup plays. I think it's really important, for Jericho at least, to go and play with the other dogs so he learns how to play respectfully with other dogs.


This is terrible advice. SOrry for the harshness, I'm sick of the excuse and misconception that "it's really important for foofoo to learn how to play with dogs at the dog park." I see you're in Washington...me too (Vancouver area). A few weeks ago a dog was killed at the dog park a few miles from me...killed. Dog parks are one of the worst ideas in the "dog world." imho. You have no idea who the heck is there, what their dog is like, what their obedience is (usually zero reliability), you are basically throwing them all together and hoping for the best outcome. Sure, there are people that have no issues (the best I've heard of are the dog parks that you pay a fee to get into and need a key)....but even then, still seems like something people do to fulfill themselves, lots of weird people, stories, and "advice" can be found in plenty at a dog park. To top it off, your dog has NOT learned how to be with other dogs. So much so that you routinely bring bitter apple spray and give time outs... So your dog isn't learning anything.

OP, your husband is right to be angry and you are right to be embarrassed. Just take it as a lesson, and move on. Your dog learned right from the get go, I get snapped at when I come in here, and then proceeded to make sure she was the first one to snap next time. You don't need a muzzle, you would really consider muzzling your dog just to take her somewhere where previous incidences occurred in preparation for future incidences?? If you want to do something with your dog, join a club, make it interactive (not just turning her loose with a bunch of unknowns), play with her yourself, go hiking, take car rides...if you believe she simply can't live without contact from other dogs (not a GSD trait, nor will she be missing anything by not), then join classes, makes sure the interactions are purely positive, with older, mature, stable, strong nerved, dogs. 

Good Luck.


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## Melissa98409 (Jun 17, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> This is terrible advice. SOrry for the harshness, I'm sick of the excuse and misconception that "it's really important for foofoo to learn how to play with dogs at the dog park." I see you're in Washington...me too (Vancouver area). A few weeks ago a dog was killed at the dog park a few miles from me...killed. Dog parks are one of the worst ideas in the "dog world." imho. You have no idea who the heck is there, what their dog is like, what their obedience is (usually zero reliability), you are basically throwing them all together and hoping for the best outcome. Sure, there are people that have no issues (the best I've heard of are the dog parks that you pay a fee to get into and need a key)....but even then, still seems like something people do to fulfill themselves, lots of weird people, stories, and "advice" can be found in plenty at a dog park. To top it off, your dog has NOT learned how to be with other dogs. So much so that you routinely bring bitter apple spray and give time outs... So your dog isn't learning anything.
> 
> OP, your husband is right to be angry and you are right to be embarrassed. Just take it as a lesson, and move on. Your dog learned right from the get go, I get snapped at when I come in here, and then proceeded to make sure she was the first one to snap next time. You don't need a muzzle, you would really consider muzzling your dog just to take her somewhere where previous incidences occurred in preparation for future incidences?? If you want to do something with your dog, join a club, make it interactive (not just turning her loose with a bunch of unknowns), play with her yourself, go hiking, take car rides...if you believe she simply can't live without contact from other dogs (not a GSD trait, nor will she be missing anything by not), then join classes, makes sure the interactions are purely positive, with older, mature, stable, strong nerved, dogs.
> 
> Good Luck.


 Not everyone likes dog parks. I get that, and clearly, you are not a fan, but this person seems to be interested in going with her dog. I am just sharing what works for me and my dog. You don't have to agree, but offering the OP only the advice of not going to dog parks and using the scenario of a dog being killed....how is that helpful? I do bring bitter apple with me wherever I go and IF NEEDED use it to correct my dogs behavior in whatever situation it is required. My dog goes to the same park every time and interacts with basically the same group of dogs. I don't have to use it often, but when the situation arises...I do. I am not a lazy dog owner, and don't just go to the dog park and turn off as a dog owner. However, I do go to the DP and I think they are a good place to let dogs interact with other dogs. That's my opinion however unpopular it may be.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

DaniFani said:


> OP, your husband is right to be angry and you are right to be embarrassed. Just take it as a lesson, and move on.


I would like to interject here - in case this sentence is misconstrued - that the anger and embarrassment should not be directed at the dog. I wouldn't phrase it like that, but just in case, I don't want OP to focus on these emotions and directing them incorrectly.

The dog is not at fault. She was set up for failure, and while I am still low on the learning ladder, I would say she reacted out of insecurity and anxiety after the altercation w/ that first dog. It is a defensive move: get the other dogs before they get her. I may be wrong, but this is how I interpret her behaviour.


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## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

I have taken her there before. Dont know what changed. Maybe it was from that other dog. I always ask if there dog is friendly and am ready to grab the lease. I did that yesterday as this big shephard came up and the guy admitted that she was unpredictable so i said I dont want it around my dogs then. (this was before the incident with mine) and he put it on a leash and left. If he KNEW his dog was that way he had no business bringing it to the dog park with the others. 
It seems she wants to be the leader. Shes a herder at the house with my old dog and always shoves him over and dominates him. I am looking into taking her somewhere to nip this behavior in the bud. My h wants to muzzle her but this is the first time she has done such a thing.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Dog parks: worst invention ever, by people who humanize dogs.


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## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

*Now she attacked my old dog!*

I dont know what the he**.. I just threw out some treats for them in the backyard and she got possessive about it. Both dogs started looking for the treats and she saw him go for one and that was it and all out brawl. She listens when I yelled at her to stop. I put her in the kennel right away but not for long as i heard they cant remember what the reason is for. This is all new behaviour.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This article will help you understand your dog's behavior. Why Does My Herding Dog Seem to Hate Labs?

"...think of herding dogs as canine ninja warriors: highly intelligent problem solvers who are alert to everything around them, mission focused and not afraid to use force if they feel it is warranted." 

Many socially stable GSDs would act the exact same way as your dog. It is very unfair to get a GSD and expect behaviors that are simply not compatible with years of selective genetics. Just leads to frustration, for you and the dog. She is a GSD, not a Labrador. She is behaving like a GSD, could use some training, but to me it sounds like nothing is wrong with her, and she is being set up to fail. Muzzling is a recipe for disaster if you plan to bring a muzzled dog to the dog park. Please don't!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

rena said:


> I am looking into taking her somewhere to nip this behavior in the bud.


Do you mean training classes or hiring a private trainer? If so, I think that's a very good idea. Has she had any training at all yet? What about your other dog?


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Your dog is a year right? It is prime teenage brat phase. She's coming into her own and she is discovering that she can push other dogs around. My nine month old has decided this one. He's very submissive to the other dogs in the house, but unless I make it really clear to him that new dogs are just off limits, he will go for the ones who don't want to fight back. It's the issue I had with other dogs when my golden was younger. Upside with him was that he is a golden and was really neutral and submissive to other dogs. 

Right now, taking your dog to the dog park is asking for trouble. I would not have her off leash where other dogs are. I've had to go to this route with my male (not that I'd step into a dog park with him after what happened with my golden). He has to stay on leash, and once he shows he will ignore the others around us (we do group hikes), he may get lucky if I let him off leash. But new dogs coming near? He's right on leash and we're right on the side of the trail. I've also been taking him down the greenbelt, which here is a nice paved path next to the river. Lots of people, bikes, dogs, kids, etc. It has helped work on his reactivity a lot, and he gets lots of praise and reward when he ignores the other dogs. He has rules. We go by these rules.

And I definitely would not be tossing treats down for both of them at once. Even with dogs who have been housemates for years without much issue is just asking for a fight to break out.  That is really setting them up for failure and you for further frustrations. Trust me. I live in a very multi dog household.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

First here:
Leerburg | Dog Parks: Why They Are A Bad Idea

And if you persist in taking a know dog with issues to a Dog Park, then this might be useful: 
Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt!

These are somethings that you should know and be doing :
Introducing a New Dog into a Home with other Dogs
https://suite.io/adrienne-farricelli/2t5h2q5
Two or More Dogs

Your not alone ,I am a Boxer/Bully guy first and my GSD "Sandbagged" me big time also! 14 to 18 month time range. If you do "anything " wrong in the beginning you can have problems down the road!


If you can find a trainer that would be very useful he can help you and your dog!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> The best way to make sure this doesn't happen again is to stop taking her to the dog park. I'd be pretty peeved if I were at the park with my dogs and someone else's dog ran at them snarling and snapping. Wouldn't you be if it were another person's dog doing that to one of yours?


 
This. I would be furious if someone repeatedly allowed their dog to go after mine. You are setting your dog up for failure, or worse.

Some dogs are not dark park material and it sure as heck sounds like yours isn't. Your dog went after another dog and you gave it a timeout and then unleashed it again to do the same thing?

GSD's are very powerful dogs with high drives and big personal space bubbles. They can easily kill a smaller dog.

Do the responsible thing and stop taking your dog there. 

Some GSD's can do well there, but many don't. There's no shame in that, it's just not the right environment for your dog and you need to respect that.


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## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

She went after a large lab. And a medium sized one because tha one snarled at her. Seemed to put a bug in her bonnet. Shes an anxious dog. Has been since when a pup some idiot had two dogs go after her in play she screamed and screamed.Another time a dog wanted to play and she ran all the way back to the parking lot. smart enough to find the car i was renting at the time. 

She seems to be like Im bigger now so noone can bully me anymore. She will remain on the leash and i will see how she reacts as then i have more control.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

rena said:


> She went after a large lab. And a medium sized one because tha one snarled at her. Seemed to put a bug in her bonnet. Shes an anxious dog. Has been since when a pup some idiot had two dogs go after her in play she screamed and screamed.Another time a dog wanted to play and she ran all the way back to the parking lot. smart enough to find the car i was renting at the time.
> 
> She seems to be like Im bigger now so noone can bully me anymore. She will remain on the leash and i will see how she reacts as then i have more control.


She is fear aggressive. She is uncomfortable around other dogs.

It sounds to me as if you were describing multiple incidents where she was scared, yet you kept taking her back there.
Are you saying you are going to take her back to the dog park on leash?

If so, why?


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

In my experience many GSDs do quite well in dog park situations up to about 8 to 12 months old, usually around the 1 year old time. You will find people that frequent dog parks on a daily basis that own other breeds don't like GSDs or are very wary/frightened of them probably due to bad experiences where a GSD owner does not recognise his/her dogs bad behaviour. People are very judgemental when it comes to GSDs. If she is becoming a bully, don't take her into the dog park. The only dogs that should be there are stable dogs, not aggressive dogs, not fearful dogs. Aggressive and fearful dogs cause problems.

If going to a dog park is important to you, take her for a brisk 30 minute walk before you take her into the park so that she has expelled some energy and will be calmer. When she is calmer take her into the dog park and see how she goes. 

I find dogs that are left to each other or are standing around looking at each other get into scuffles, it is far better for dogs when they have a job to do or are moving forward - this helps build bonds within the quickly established pack. You might find putting a weighted pack back on her before she enters the park may help calm her as she has a job do do - carrying the pack back.

Keep an eye on her, if she continues to tell you she is not happy being there, find other ways to exercise her. She has had her socialisation, now she just need to be kept happy with adequate exercise.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

rena said:


> She went after a large lab. And a medium sized one because tha one snarled at her. Seemed to put a bug in her bonnet. *Shes an anxious dog*. Has been since when a pup some idiot had two dogs go after her in play she screamed and screamed.Another time a dog wanted to play and she ran all the way back to the parking lot. smart enough to find the car i was renting at the time.
> 
> She seems to be like Im bigger now so noone can bully me anymore. She will remain on the leash and i will see how she reacts as then i have more control.


This is my take from this - which doesn't even mean 2 cents....

This is a fearful pup. Maturing, and in the bratty age, but still a pup. She has realized she can scare other dogs away. She is not dog park material. Put a leash on her and take her in again, you will have bigger problems. 

Locate an experienced trainer.


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## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

*hmmmm*

So noone here takes there dog to the park?


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

rena said:


> So noone here takes there dog to the park?


Heck no. Nothing good can be gained from going there.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

rena said:


> So noone here takes there dog to the park?


I used to take my GSD to the dog park, we had a great time going there for a while but then other dogs started to get pushy with my male and started to "bully" him because he is really submissive.

We stopped going years ago and since then we just have play dates with 3 Dobermans, 2 Min Pins, an ACD mix, a Rottweiler and we used to play with a GSD/Husky mix and a Akita but both have since passed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

rena said:


> So noone here takes there dog to the park?


I do. We have several great multi-acre open space off leash parks in the area. Keefer was around 4-1/2 months old when we first started taking him, and Halo was 15 weeks old. She strutted around like she owned the joint, lol. 

They're not there to play with other dogs, they play with us and each other. We have a tiny yard, too small to even throw a ball for them, so this gives them a chance to really run since they can't do that at home. One of the the parks is where all our dogs have learned to swim, it's right on the San Francisco Bay. Because we're in a densely populated major metropolitan area, options for off leash play with our dogs are limited. 

But we don't allow our dogs to be jerks, and we don't subject them to other dogs that are being jerks. That's the nice thing about open space off leash parks vs small fenced parks where people generally stand around and watch their dogs play with the other dogs, which can often turn into a free for all. A lot of the problems in those small parks, such as ganging up on the newcomers and pack behavior simply don't occur. We're basically walking along with our dogs and stopping to chuck a ball for them from time to time, and so is everyone else. If we see a dog that's being a bully and picking on other dogs, we just pick a different line through the park so we keep our distance.

Our dogs absolutely love going to the park. If they didn't, if they were anxious or nervous or stressed, we wouldn't take them anymore. If they couldn't behave properly, we wouldn't take them anymore. If most of the other dogs weren't generally well behaved and socialized, we'd find another place to go.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I actually helped with the fund raisers to build a dog park on our island. We were successful and the park is still open. A lot of people go there, but, I don't take my dog. I didn't take Pyrate either and he was a complete sweet heart baby. I don't like the idea of other people's dogs jumping on my dog and Pyrate was older when the park opened. I don't take Raina because she has dog aggression issues when other dogs get near me. In other words, she does not play well with others. She has two dog friends that she has grown up around other than with Pyrate. They can walk together with us and she has no problems with that but if we put them in a yard together there can be no toys or water bowls or they will still argue over it. Mainly we just walk together and that is the socialization she gets now. My trainer moved away and the only one close is 50 miles and they don't have a good reputation. I am looking into another trainer I was just recommended to that teaches obedience, rally, agility, and also does problem dog work. Either way I will not take my dogs to a dog park. (Of course Pyrate is gone now but I wouldn't take him either). Finding a good class is the only socialization Raina will get other than the two friends she has as she is not a person and does not desire a whole list of friends.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

simba405 said:


> Heck no. Nothing good can be gained from going there.


Depends on the dog, and it depends on the park. Perhaps you live in an area where everyone has enough property that their dogs can play and exercise without having to take them to public places. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, my yard isn't much bigger than my living room. Parks are really the only option, but there are parks and then there are parks.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Depends on the dog, and it depends on the park. Perhaps you live in an area where everyone has enough property that their dogs can play and exercise without having to take them to public places. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, my yard isn't much bigger than my living room. Parks are really the only option, but there are parks and then there are parks.


My definition of a dog park is where a bunch of dogs interact with each other. If you use it as a field to exercise your dogs then that's much different.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

simba405 said:


> My definition of a dog park is where a bunch of dogs interact with each other. If you use it as a field to exercise your dogs then that's much different.


I'm not talking about fields to exercise your dogs, my point is that there aren't any of those around here. The parks we go to are officially designated as off leash areas where dogs can run free. How people choose to use the parks (play with your dog vs watching your dog play with other dogs) is beside the point. But not everyone has access to the great parks that we do, we are lucky in that regard. I'll post some pictures.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is one of our "dog parks", it's about a mile and a half from our house - it's also open range for cattle during part of the year, hence the cows:



















A small meet with a couple of GSD friends:






This is the furthest, about an hour away, on the coast in SF:










We've had some really fun GSD meets there










This place is about a half hour away, and where Cassidy, Dena, Keefer, and Halo all learned to swim. It's also the busiest park - one of the largest in the country, and according to Wikipedia there are over 500,000 canine visitors a year.



















Oooh, found a video, it even features a German shepherd! 






This is what my dogs like to do there:






Yeah, nothing to be gained by all that.  Except maybe fun, impulse control training, and engagement in a very distracting environment.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yeah, nothing to be gained by all that.  Except maybe fun, impulse control training, and engagement in a very distracting environment.


Nope nothing to be gained. You can do that stuff anywhere. Away from badly behaved dogs and people with their heads in their phones. 

Of course I'm sure our views are different. I don't have a dog that looks like a gsd but has the temperament of a golden retriever....


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

simba405 said:


> Nope nothing to be gained. You can do that stuff anywhere. Away from badly behaved dogs and people with their heads in their phones.


You can do that stuff "anywhere" if you live in a place where there are lots of other options. Apparently you do, and good for you, but not everyone does. Fortunately, at the off leash parks we go to, the dogs tend not to be badly behaved and most people are engaging with their dogs instead of having their heads in their phones.  Sorry if your experience is different. 



> Of course I'm sure our views are different. I don't have *a dog that looks like a gsd but has the temperament of a golden retriever*....


Lol, obviously you've never met Halo! :wild: Where do you live, BTW? I guess your dog is a working line too?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Do that stuff anywhere like where? I'm in a desperate need of a place like that and need some ideas. 

I stopped going to the park a few weeks ago. Ours is not a dog park either, just a park, no fence and has unofficial off leash hours (late at night and early morning). I used to go around 11pm to 2 am and still a few dogs are there and my doggie had 2 fight with the same dog. No physical damage, just emotional. He regressed back to the way he was a year ago, all my work down the drain. 
Started back up barking at people. 

Anyway, so we walk the streets now for a few hours but that's not nearly enough for him. I'm torn, he needs to be able to run but I can't stress him out like this. Seeing the fights was horrifying. 

I find that if dogs are allowed off leash then other dogs will be there and then there's potential for a fight. I can't find a place where I can let him off leash and no dog comes there. I'm in NYC, space is an issue here. 

How do people get around this? I know I'm not the only one with this problem. 




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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

OP I took my GSD puppy to the DP from the time he could first go up until he turned about a year old. At that point he began to have issues with other dogs. He would become possessive over balls and would become overly protective of me. 

Sadly, at the time he was 10 months old he was attacked by an Akita and ended up with 20+ staples, stitches, and drains holding his side together. There's even a thread on this forum about his attack. As a result, my formerly bratty puppy became a fearful one. I spent months working with him to help him overcome being reactive to other dogs.

We still go to the dog park, but only at odd hours when I can be sure the park is unoccupied. If another dog comes, we leave. It is both to protect my dog from possibly being attacked again, but also to protect him from suffering the lethal consequences should his fearful instincts at some point overwhelm his training and lead him to attack someone else's dog.

I would support others' suggestions to enroll in puppy classes or have organized play dates with dogs you know yours gets along with. There's no sense in putting yours and others' dogs at risk with the behavior your pup is currently displaying. 

It's really disheartening when you're perfect lil puppy starts acting out, but the responsible road is to acknowledge the issue and take protective and preventative measures. I hope you stick around this forum. There's a lot of wonderfully helpful information on here and I've found the members to be very insightful and supportive. Seems you've just had a bit of a rough introduction.


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## rena (Nov 19, 2005)

Im sad because my 10 year old male never acted like this. I believe first its because she is a female and second it is because of her experience when she was a puppy of those wretched dogs. Either way I am going to just walk her around and try to find other places where i can take her off leash.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Do that stuff anywhere like where? I'm in a desperate need of a place like that and need some ideas.
> 
> I stopped going to the park a few weeks ago. Ours is not a dog park either, just a park, no fence and has unofficial off leash hours (late at night and early morning). I used to go around 11pm to 2 am and still a few dogs are there and my doggie had 2 fight with the same dog. No physical damage, just emotional. He regressed back to the way he was a year ago, all my work down the drain.
> Started back up barking at people.
> ...


When I lived in San Jose we would go to business parks on weekends, no dogs and no people to speak of.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

What's a business park? Are dogs legally allowed there? I already found two spots just to be told I can't be there with a dog lol


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sorry San Jose CA aka Silicon Valley, thought they were everywhere, just an "assumption' on part!

But in essence a place where people are at during the week and gone during the weekend.


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