# Do you think show line breeders are shooting themselves in the foot. . .



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

. . . by having so many show-stacked photos on their websites? It seems like a lot of average buyers are really turned off by the looks of a show-line dog in a show stack. But if you show photos of the _exact same dogs_ running and playing and standing more naturally, people love the way the show lines look! I'm thinking specifically of recent un-stacked photos I've seen of GSDAlphamom's dogs, Josie's Koda, some of Robin's dogs, and Babheim's Captain Crunch who won the Herding group at Westminster. They're flippin' gorgeous dogs. It seems like people are impressed by the way these dogs look in motion or un-stacked, but hate they way they look stacked. 

What do you guys think? 


Please please please don't turn this into a show-line bashing thread. I love my show line friends and love the looks of their dogs and get tired of a lot of the disrespect they get because of the way the dogs look stacked. And when it's a bad stack--- eek!


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## amaris (Jan 6, 2011)

I like the stack, i learned about what to look for in a stack on the forums and thn i went around through PDB looking at different dogs, how they looked stacked and googling photos of them working whenever possible....it sorta helped prepare me for when Munich self-stacks...so i'm not all freaking out about why my dog's feet are uneven or whatever 

I think, a combination of stacking photos (for ppl like me who wants to learn from those photos and expert showline people) and working photos (for the lay man) would be best.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I know a couple of people new to GSD's or just dogs in general and asked why they have sloped backs and even comment on how Havoc doesn't and how great he looks without it. I then go on to point that a three point stack makes the angulation appear, and sometimes overstacking can make a dog look like they have a very slanted back. You would be surprised how many people don't realize the stack is what makes their backs look like that and its not how they walk around LOL


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

4TheDawgies said:


> I know a couple of people new to GSD's or just dogs in general and asked why they have sloped backs and even comment on how Havoc doesn't and how great he looks without it. I then go on to point that a three point stack makes the angulation appear, and sometimes overstacking can make a dog look like they have a very slanted back. You would be surprised how many people don't realize the stack is what makes their backs look like that and its not how they walk around LOL


Exactly. Your average person who's not familiar with the lines thinks they look like that all the time. I know the stack photos are valuable to people who are familiar with show lines, but to the layman the dog looks funny. I'm thinking show line breeders and fanciers would be better served by having a mix of photos.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I think they are in the sense that people also want to see the dogs in a more natural stance. I know i do. I prefer sables and bi-colors and its nice seeing them in a stack but seeing the dog in a more natural position shows you alot about the dogs as well.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Exactly. Your average person who's not familiar with the lines thinks they look like that all the time. I know the stack photos are valuable to people who are familiar with show lines, but to the layman the dog looks funny. I'm thinking show line breeders and fanciers would be better served by having a mix of photos.


I think for more than the uninformed public, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Often times I see some atrocious stacks doing nothing but harm on a dogs image. Making broken toplines, roaches appear, etc.

But I find there are just as many people who think they are supposed to be sloped as there are that don't know what it is, and don't want it. There is clearly a large market for those dogs. Especially with the price tags they're getting away with.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

To be fair, I think many (if not most) show line breeders prefer their puppies to go to show homes, and pictures of their German Shepherd Dogs stacked better reveal the positive features of a dog's conformation as per standard. Average buyers are looking for pet dogs, and some show line breeders would simply rather cater to show people, and show people want to see stacked pictures.

Additionally, even the working line breeders often have pictures of their dogs stacked (Eurosport is what comes to mind currently) - and to be completely honest, I think I subconsciously find a typical website more outwardly professional if the dogs are properly stacked, in comparison to a website that only displays pictures of dogs at play or standing four square at an unflattering angle. Not saying a website is unprofessional if the dogs are not stacked (my breeder's website only displays headshots, and I think it is a very well put together page), just that for me, good stacked shots also seem to carry the air of professionalism in the dog world. 

I think Capi looks very good stacked (have not seen him in person or in any other form, actually) and as far as Robin's dogs go... can I say _WOW! _to this?









(hope Robin doesn't mind me posting a picture of this beautiful girl from her website)

I don't recall ever seeing Koda or any of GSDAlphamom's dogs stacked, but I will say they look beautiful in candid photos, that is without a doubt.

I DO understand the point you are making and agree with you that often a stacked photo can be misleading and unflattering. I have taken enough photos of my own dog stacked to know this very well, you should see me choosing through different shots of him stacked. I am always throwing tons of them out because they are not representative of his structure in person... sometimes for reasons I can't even place. I have also observed dogs to look unappealing overall based off of one stacked shot, and then show themselves to be well put together in actuality, so again, I am in agreement with you on that aspect, but I guess I just wouldn't exactly call it "shooting themselves in the foot". Maybe some believe it to be simplistic and professional, and feel that a stacked photo of their dog is all they need to display to attract the people they are looking for.

To be honest, if I were a breeder (hah!) I would probably only have photos of my dog stacked, gaiting, and working (okay, maybe largely because if I did post candid photos I'd have a seriously crowded website). 

All just speculation, of course, I have no personal experience or expertise to go off of at all.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think what made me bring this up is the number of people who want a black and tan / black and red dog but say they "don't like that sloped look." Then I start looking around for un-stacked photos of black and red or black and tan dogs and they can be hard to find. I worry that people go to less-than-good breeders for their black and red dog, simply because those breeders often have un-stacked photos.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

See, now personally, that stacked photo just does not appeal to me. I just don't like the slope.. and I KNOW the dog does not look like that in any other situation. I do like the photos of stacked working line dogs, but it is so less dramatic that it appeals to me personally. However, I do not show dogs, so my opinion is irrelevant to show dogs.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Absolutely a valid point. I think that it would definitely be nice if breeders had "casual" photos of their dog *in addition* to the stacked photos (so it is the lack of casual photos that I think is the problem, rather than the excess of stacked photos).

*Shaina*, I have show line friends who regularly stack their dogs and I can honestly say that their slopes are not any more "dramatic" than my dog's. Are you referring to the German show line dog I posted above? If so I would be happy to pull up photos of my own dog stacked for comparison purposes. He is not nearly as nice as the bitch up there but the incline of his topline/back in a stack is similar. There are also many photos on the Eurosport website, and their dogs are often overstretched in their stacks, so it is interesting that you would find them more appealing than the dog posted above because of the slope, as you say.

Please understand I _genuinely _find it interesting, I am not being snarky. I really find that German Shepherd to be a moderate, lovely bitch.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I like seeing stacked photos, but I'd also like to see some more casual pics of the dogs. 

In my unprofessional, untrained opinion, it's not the sloping backs that people *think* they're looking at that they don't like but the angulation in the legs that make the back appear to be more sloped. WLs seem to have significantly less angulation in the hind legs, making them appear to have a more flat, level topline. Whereas SL dogs have more angulation, bringing their back end closer to the ground and giving them the slanted/sloped look. 
Just an opinion/thought....


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I took the liberty of rotating the image a bit, as the dog was standing on an incline









Flipped these two images so they are all facing the same way

*  Italo zet Eurosportu SchH3, SVV2, IPO1, 5CY5/55 P 1 class*











*  Ch. Galant z Pohranicni Straze SVV3











Emoore*, do you believe that the same applies to working line breeders? Are they doing a disservice for themselves and their dogs by displaying only stacked pictures... or even further, bitework pictures?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Rei, your post is very good and make a valid point that I have often observed. Working line dogs look very similar to show line dogs in a stack. I personally really don't mind the stacks but I also think that the uninformed public should become informed about GSDs before they go buy one. But hey, that is what this forum is for!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

all of them stack up to me. i like the SL and the WL.



Rei said:


> I took the liberty of rotating the image a bit, as the dog was standing on an incline
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree there should be both types of pics and a frontal head shot too. When I've been told that people like mine when we are out cause they aren't showline, I say they are and show how different stacks make for a different look. And there are also some tricks to make a less angulated dog appear to have more...I am a novice but have seen the same dog stacked by several different people and have differing amounts shown..of course a true expert would be able to see through some of this but the average person can't. I always say spread your legs apart like a runner and see if you look the same.

But how great if we could see the dog standing naturally, and I do have to say some of the best stacked shots are actually freely done, but a more square stance, front head shot, and maybe some personality shot...doing something fun, I LOVE expression and joy and animation


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

one of the things that always irks me about those looking to purchase gsds, or any breed for that matter, is how little research really goes into what they're looking for. i've personally never "looked" for a specific breed until i wanted a gsd and then they just sort of fell on me. but when i decided i wanted them i spent more than a year reading, studying, learning everything i could about them. from the breeding side of them to their psychological profile. i looked at and studied their physical builds from the origin of the breed all the way thru current breeding philosophy. 

most ppl don't do that. they just decide on a color and coat length and go from there and know nothing about what they're getting into. they don't know the puppies are called "land sharks" for a reason, lol. they don't know that there are more than half a dozen "types" of shepherds, from old style to belgians. they don't know the difference between schutzhund and protection work. by the time they find ANY of this out they're ready to toss out the 6mo old terror they've walked into blindly, lol. 

putting everything you can on your site can only help someone looking for sheps. file it seperately. it can still be very professional. but putting it out there can only be a good thing in educating people who otherwise wouldn't know any better and probably shouldn't own a shep in the first place. 

dw


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Good question Emily! I've been out of confirmation showing for a good 10-12 years so I don't do any stacking these days. Here is a picture of Moses from a hike, a totally natural stance. I did not have my hands on him at all for the 'pose'. And I must admit when I was in the show world I did not show gsd's because of the severe angulation. I've never owned an American line because of it. Having said that, the AM lines have much improved in that area and I think they look so much better.

I have always thought...and I must admit it's just always been an assumption so I may be showing some ignorance as I've never checked the history on it....that the 'gsd show stack' was done because they naturally tend to stand with one leg extended and the 'stack' exaggerates it...often overly done. I don't know why they don't stack them in a natural stance as Moses exhibits below.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Good question Emily! I've been out of confirmation showing for a good 10-12 years so I don't do any stacking these days. Here is a picture of Moses from a hike, a totally natural stance. I did not have my hands on him at all for the 'pose'.
> 
> I have always thought...and I must admit it's just always been an assumption so I may be showing some ignorance as I've never checked the history on it....that the 'gsd show stack' was done because they naturally tend to stand with one leg extended and the 'stack' exaggerates it...often overly done. I don't know why they don't stack them in a natural stance as Moses exhibits below.


He is so dark and so handsome! :wub:


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Guilty as charged! 

When we first got our first GSD four years ago, it was just happenstance. My wife decided she wanted one and went out and bought the first dog that came to her from a BYB. Fortunately, we were lucky and ended up with a great dog whom we loved and really didn't cause too much trouble. But the fact was, we didn't know what we were getting into and looking back, I admit, we made every single rookie mistake that could be made. We learned on the fly what needed to be done and committed ourselves to following the recommendations of our trainer (whom we love) and made the best of an ill-timed, ill-formed decision. That experience cemented out love for GSD's. And it taught us that good really does come from hard work!

Now that we're looking for a new dog, it's going to be different! I was fortunate enough to find this site while I was searching for information on canine epilepsy. It was invaluable in helping me cope with Beau's illness and his subsequent death. I have read every thread on here in the last few weeks pertaining to breeds, training methods, styles of training etc. In fact, my wife's favorite expression these days is..."are you on the blog again?"

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the time everyone puts in here in educating those of us who are looking for information on this noble breed!


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

By the way...I was responding to Drangonwyke's post....


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Ah thanks! I love that boy!

Emily, Josie, Danielle (anyone else local) the Ft Worth show is in a couple of weeks (one of the shows I use to enter my mastiffs in). I haven't been in a couple of years but am going. They don't typcially have a lot of gsd's in that show but if you want info on it let me know and I'll send it to you. The premium list ususally post about 10 days out (counts).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Rei said:


> *  Ch. Galant z Pohranicni Straze SVV3
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh, good question.

See, I don't like that picture at all, and sable WL dogs are my favorite. The WL breeders that I tend to e-stalk are ones like Welcome to Blackthorn Working German Shepherds and Kleinen Hain German Shepherds - Home, where yeah, you have the obligatory stacked photos, but they tend to be more natural stacks, and there are _lots_ of photos of dogs running around doing things. And not that many bite pics.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LaRen616 said:


> He is so dark and so handsome! :wub:


He's even more handsome in person. :wub: But I bet if you stretched him out more so his hind end was closer to the ground, the _exact same dog_ would turn people off, just because of the more extreme stack.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Emoore said:


> He's even more handsome in person. :wub: But I bet if you stretched him out more so his hind end was closer to the ground, the _exact same dog_ would turn people off, just because of the more extreme stack.


I agree. I absolutely do not like the extreme stack, it completely turns me off. I dont think it looks good at all.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Ah thanks! I love that boy!
> 
> Emily, Josie, Danielle (anyone else local) the Ft Worth show is in a couple of weeks (one of the shows I use to enter my mastiffs in). I haven't been in a couple of years but am going. They don't typcially have a lot of gsd's in that show but if you want info on it let me know and I'll send it to you. The premium list ususally post about 10 days out (counts).


I would love to go and watch. 

I can't show Koda, he is already 2 inches taller than the standard.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Eurosport *really* overstacks the dogs, and it looks weird on all of the dogs. So yes, they are doing the dogs a disservice. 

But a good looking working line dog will not (IMO) look weird or extreme if stacked properly.









The importance of a PROPER stack is that it allows those who are experienced in GSD structure evaluate the dog at a glance - angles, proportions, etc. When the angle of the photo is correct, and the dog is stacked with its legs in the right places, you can see the angles and proportions of the shoulder, pasterns, croup, rear angulation, etc. 
This is important - even though I am a working line person, I still want a dog with nice structure. 
And I would agree that NO stacks make a breeder look unprofessional. But I do love to see other pictures of the dogs actually doing things in addition to stacked pictures.

JMO but I think if a person is turned of by a stacked dog, the dog may not be stacked properly, or the dog is built with *something* extreme - either angulation or the banana or overly sloped back...but a balanced dog in a stack should not be "ugly" to even an inexperienced person.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

These are the only "stack" pictures I have of Koda.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Josie/Zeus said:


> I would love to go and watch.
> 
> I can't show Koda, he is already 2 inches taller than the standard.


I wanna show Kopper! Is it AKC or UKC?


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

It's AKC (I'm not showing, just going) . It closed the 7th. 
The Dallas show is in Dec. They moved it to Market Hall a couple of years ago and I never liked the setup there. 

I'll email you guys the premium list once they post. We should meet up. I'll be there a good portion of the day Shelly (my vet) will be there with her greyhoud...which may be the #1 greyhound by now and I anticipate seeing a few folks from the 'old' days.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I guess it would help if I gave you guys the dates! Fri, Sat, Sun March 23, 24, 25. Friday is the specialties, all breed Sat & Sun. I will be there Sat, 3/24.

Jack Onofrio Dog Shows, LLC


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Good question Emily! I've been out of confirmation showing for a good 10-12 years so I don't do any stacking these days. Here is a picture of Moses from a hike, a totally natural stance. I did not have my hands on him at all for the 'pose'. And I must admit when I was in the show world I did not show gsd's because of the severe angulation. I've never owned an American line because of it. Having said that, the AM lines have much improved in that area and I think they look so much better.
> 
> I have always thought...and I must admit it's just always been an assumption so I may be showing some ignorance as I've never checked the history on it....that the 'gsd show stack' was done because they naturally tend to stand with one leg extended and the 'stack' exaggerates it...often overly done. I don't know why they don't stack them in a natural stance as Moses exhibits below.




HANDSOME!!!!!!!!! :wub:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Emoore said:


> . . . by having so many show-stacked photos on their websites? It seems like a lot of average buyers are really turned off by the looks of a show-line dog in a show stack. But if you show photos of the _exact same dogs_ running and playing and standing more naturally, people love the way the show lines look! I'm thinking specifically of recent un-stacked photos I've seen of GSDAlphamom's dogs, Josie's Koda, some of Robin's dogs, and Babheim's Captain Crunch who won the Herding group at Westminster. They're flippin' gorgeous dogs. It seems like people are impressed by the way these dogs look in motion or un-stacked, but hate they way they look stacked.
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> ...


I haven't read responses but my first response is no, they aren't shooting themselves in the foot because for every person that's turned off by a stack there are probably five people waiting in line to buy the dog.

Also, I would say it's buyers that shoot themselves in the foot decided what dogs or breeders they are interested in based on a single picture. It's just as likely that people are placing too much importance on stacked photos to make assumptions about a dog than people are using them to somehow "prove" a dog's conformation.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Emoore said:


> Ooh, good question.
> 
> See, I don't like that picture at all, and sable WL dogs are my favorite. The WL breeders that I tend to e-stalk are ones like Welcome to Blackthorn Working German Shepherds and Kleinen Hain German Shepherds - Home, where yeah, you have the obligatory stacked photos, but they tend to be more natural stacks, and there are _lots_ of photos of dogs running around doing things. And not that many bite pics.


I love visiting the Blackthorn, Kleinen Hain, and Wildhaus websites (especially love that in addition to galleries for their breeding dogs, Chris and Tim also have galleries for all of their past litters, working and at home). :wub:

I am a picture nut, I love seeing as many pictures as possible on a breeder website because I enjoy them immensely. But I am curious, when you say that stacked pictures turn potential GSD owners away from a breeder - does that apply to stacked working line dogs as well? I definitely agree that many of the dogs on working line breeder websites are stacked much more naturally, but if a breeder with moderate show lines stacked was compared to a breeder with moderate working line dogs stacked, would one turn more people away than others?

I guess my question is, is that do potential buyers simply dislike the fact that the dogs are stacked, or do they dislike seeing a dog's conformation depicted in such a manner? After all, one candid photo of a dog standing and one professional photo of the dog stacked are both of the same animal, one just serves to better represent the overall conformation of the dog. 

OR are we only referring to bad stacks? I have definitely seen dogs set up in an extreme stance (low on hocks or appearance of a roached back) when in actuality they are very solid, well structured dogs. But it is undeniable that others ARE truly what the stack shows them to be, whether they have too much rear, a bad front, or display a curvature in the spine. And I have seen working line dogs set up quite extremely, and working lines with what seemed to be a curve in the spine, but oddly I have never heard a complaint regarding "sloped backs" or "roached backs", whereas sometimes even a very moderate show line dog will be criticized. 

I think we can all agree that we enjoy seeing additional pictures of dogs out of the show ring/working field - but does the actual presence of the stacked shots or bitework pictures drive people away? And is that considered breeders doing themselves a disservice, or are they better off without those potential buyers?

Just rambling now... :crazy:



phgsd said:


> Eurosport *really* overstacks the dogs, and it looks weird on all of the dogs. So yes, they are doing the dogs a disservice.
> 
> But a good looking working line dog will not (IMO) look weird or extreme if stacked properly.
> 
> ...


Firstly, beautiful dog.

I have also always wondered why Eurosport insists on overstretching all of their dogs - they really own and breed some beautiful, well structured German Shepherds, but the images are not always flattering. The only difference is, again, that I have never known anyone to look at their website and complain about angulation (just limited personal observation, though).

I am of the same mindset as you, I'm a working line person but I enjoy looking at a dog's structure and trying to understand functional build within the breed, and I want a dog that is well put together. 

Although I will say, sometimes the way the dog is stacked really does make a difference, even if every paw is in the right position... I've tried to stack my own dog enough to find that out :wild: 

For example, the many stacks of my dog:

From when he was closer to 2 1/2 years old









Taken around the same time as this



















Around 3 years, I don't like this stack because the camera itself is tilted towards his front, making him appear weak in the back end (not weak as in extreme angulation or excessive rear, but weak as in lacking breadth of thigh, etc.)











More recent photos, all taken within a month of each other?






































My absolute favorite stacked photo










But then again, maybe "proper" is defined by how well the stack actually depicts the dog's conformation and overall build.





Liesje said:


> I haven't read responses but my first response is no, they aren't shooting themselves in the foot because for every person that's turned off by a stack there are probably five people waiting in line to buy the dog.
> 
> Also, I would say it's buyers that shoot themselves in the foot decided what dogs or breeders they are interested in based on a single picture. It's just as likely that people are placing too much importance on stacked photos to make assumptions about a dog than people are using them to somehow "prove" a dog's conformation.


I really agree with this and it was my initial thought as well. I will admit, however, that I am probably guilty of this, which is why I didn't bring it up LOL

If I am looking at breeder websites and a dog is stacked poorly or looks unappealing in the photo, I feel like I would pass over the breeder (assuming I am browsing random breeder websites, not breeders who's dogs I know or breeders who come with recommendations from people I respect). I just would not feel the same inclination to inquire about their dogs in detail as I would if I saw dogs that I liked from a few photos, primarily if I did not see anything additionally about the said dogs that impressed me (working videos, pedigree, achievements, etc.). 

I think that is a bias on my part that I do need to work on and a good point to bring up.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

@Rei...first, let me say *Thank you!* for the very nice compliment on my female Tatianna....she is indeed, a very nicely (over all) structured, strong female. *I would like better pasterns, but the rest of the package (mind & body) is excellent....I can over look that one fault.*
As for "stacking pictures" vs "natural stand" pics....neither is better than the other.
A poor stack photo & a poor natural stand...will deter from what the dog actually is.
Standing stacks are originally to *assist* the viewer...ie judge, buyer, breeder to visualize the dogs bone structure & placement from a parallel view point.....to exhibit it's pros & cons of general conformation.
Stacks have become (extreme) as different venues, judges and enthusiasts *wish* to see them in a particular view or display.
Show lines will have more rear angulation than the working line...this is predominately factual......BUT....SL's do not necessarily have rounded, roached or horrific top-lines. 
MY own dogs tend to have high wither placement & generally good shoulder lay.. (which is something I actually like).....

Here is an example of a SL...standing naturally. He was told "stay/stand"...and I was able to take the photo. (it's not perfect....but it'll do).
He is not roached, over stacked or extreme.










I think it is important for a photo to factually show the attributes & faults of the dog pictured......as a SL breeder.....it is important for me to see these things.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I personally like to see a stacked dog in show condition, that's the ideal I'm looking for and what I am hoping to acquire, if I was going through the expense of showing and breeding dogs and setting up a website I can honestly say my market I was trying to reach wouldn't be people so ignorant that they would think a dog was deformed because he was stacked. I know when I'm stallion shopping I want to see the stallion presented in show shape and standing in a properly set stance for the breed, parked for my TWH and Saddlebred stallions and stood correctly for an Arabian, complete with level top line and arched neck, I wouldn't even look at a stallion ad if not presented properly. I don't care to see them walking in a pen with whiskers. If I like what I see I either go see them in person or send for a CD telling the breeder exactly what I want to see, or I go to the website and dig deeper into the breeding program and their accomplishments, I've never been disappointed yet with this system, either dogs or horses.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Very very interesting opinions in this thread.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I think Emoore is on to something with this thread. 

I can't tell you how many people I meet who can't believe my dog is a German Shepherd - not because he is white but because he is not "deformed." When i ask what they mean by "deformed," they say, well, he doesn't look crippled.

So, if I was a breeder I would have pictures of my dogs in stack AND natural poses. Of course, I would personally never advocate that people looking for pets go to a breeder, but I have followed links to many breeder sites that sure seem to confirm people's perceptions due to the stack pose. Maybe that is not a bad thing as I do truly believe that the worst thing that can happen to a purebred dog is for it's breed to become too popular :crazy:


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