# my 4 to shepherd killed my 13 yo bichon last night



## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

After I cam home from my sisters wedding we found her dead. A couple days ago my little bichon fell off the bed and was seriously hurt, not able to move hardly, and wine when touched her .. The next day we found serious wounds on her neck... The wounds stopped bleeding and we thought after about a week she would be OK... We put the bichon in her cage in in the bathroom because that's the only door that shuts all the way (gsd doesn't have a working cage) ... We come home night of the wedding house is tore up queen size bed and bedspring across the room and we found both dogs in the bathroom 

My shepherd has been with her since she was a puppy and around a yorkie by her self before and although can get rough with my bichon it has never been like this... I really don't know what to do or make of this .. My shepherd has also had obedience training and although I haven't taken her for a walk in a couple days she has never acted this way ...


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

When your bichon fell off the bed, did you take her to the vet, and the 'wounds' on her neck..did the gsd bite her? If she was shut up in her cage in the bathroom with the door closed tightly, and the shepherd got in... You seriously need a trainer!!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

How did the GSD get in the bathroom? Was the door damaged? Did the small dog go to the vet after it fell? Did the GSD know the smaller dog was in pain and probably suffering?


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

We did not take her to the vet and yes the wounds were from the gsd.. Thank you for your input


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

It was shut securely and I am pretty sure the gsd knew she was hurt after the fall


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Why did you not take her to the vet, were you just going to let her stay injured?? And how did the GSD damage her neck? You also said the GSD had not been walked, it sounds like he was bored out of his skull... GSDs need mental and physical stimulation, tearing up the house is a huge sign of boredom. This dog should have been crated also. What you need is a secure crate for him, more exercise and a trainer experienced with the breed asap. This dog should never ever be left out alone with other dogs again.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So did the dog die in the bathroom and the GSD knew it and wanted to be by the dog in the bathroom or did the GSD get into the bathroom and kill the dog? And did the dog fall off the bed or did the GSD grab her by her neck and drag her off the bed? How did the wounds get on the neck is my question?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry to be so blunt -- bad management all the way --- you can't undo it , but you shouldn't take it out on the GSD either
The GSD responded as an animal , a dog. Just the size difference creates a problem of unintended injury - thinking of the yorkie .

The bichon was seriously injured . Making injured animal noises and injured animal movements . 
Animals instinctively respond differently to injured distressed animals . 
The bichon should have been taken to the vet to prevent infection from the bites , whether the bleeding stopped or not.
All dogs should have been constructively confined for their own safety.

I am sorry . I am being this short because I don't want this to turn into a put the GSD down thread . The bichon may have gone into some super distress -- shrieking , writhing , which got the GSD excited .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

And was the small dog still in the crate in the bathroom or did the GSD get the dog out?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Very strange. I don't know what a dog will do if left alone in a house with a wounded small dog that has had no medical care. 

Most people would not have this situation in their house. I think you would have to look to wild dog packs and how they deal with injured/ elderly pack members. I really don't know if nature took its course and the sick/dying dog was eliminated as a "natural response" or if your GSD just went over the edge?

Had they been left alone in the house before together and everything was fine? Could someone have broken into your house? Was there dog damage to the bathroom door/the crate?


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

Both dogs were in the bathroom but but bichons cage was in another room


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but you put the bichon in the cage in the bathroom and closed the door?

"We put the bichon in her cage in in the bathroom because that's the only door that shuts all the way "


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

Yes


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so what are you looking for ?

this is a management problem. 

get some working equipment - a good large sized crate with doors that work and use it 

get back on the training program and get the dog out and active


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm confused. Sorry your little dog died. A vet visit after falling off the bed may have been a good idea. Not sure by the description that the GSD is guilty or not.


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## Kels1013 (May 30, 2015)

I'm sorry for the loss of your dog...

but im extremely confused.. If the bichon was locked in a cage inside a bathroom with the door closed, how did the GSD get into the bathroom and how did the bichon end up outside the crate?

Did the GSD actually kill the bichon, or did the bichon die from the previous wounds while still inside the crate?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It sounds like both dogs were locked in the bathroom, both uncaged....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Vonbrockhaus said:


> Both dogs were in the bathroom but but bichons cage was in another room


I'm confused here...

You left the small dog in the bathroom in the crate or not in the crate? You came home and the dog was in the bathroom and the crate was or wasn't where you left it?


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

Not looking for anything.. Just confused why my dog would kill my other dog


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I'm confused here...
> 
> You left the small dog in the bathroom in the crate or not in the crate? You came home and the dog was in the bathroom and the crate was or wasn't where you left it?




Small dog was in cage in bathroom when we left. When we got back both dogs were in bathroom and the small dogs cage was in another room


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Not looking for anything.. Just confused why my dog would kill my other dog "

Instinct . The dog may have been in pain , screeching , writhing . The GSD responds to this .


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

This sounds more like a murder mystery now. Sorry for the loss of your little dog though. It is just the whole thing sounds strange to me.


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## Kels1013 (May 30, 2015)

how did the gsd to get into the bathroom with the door shut? did it chew/scratch a hole? and how did the bichon end up outside of the cage?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I understand. The only thing I can think of is your small dog may have ultimately had heart failure and your GSD picked up on that distress and flipped out. That is the only "trigger" I can think of. If that could have been what happened, I could not blame the GSD. Very sad. Sorry for your loss.

Morn your loss and do not dwell in blaming. Something happened and you will never know for sure. Sometimes there are no answers.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

very strange .

the bathroom had to be breeched , then the bichon's cage broken into . The old dog , who should have been attended to by a vet for the fall injury and the neck wounds . 
To come home to the bathroom door open, and the cage in another room ? did the GSD fling the crate around till the bichon fell out ? 

squeaky toys - everyone knows them -- the squeak simulates the distress of an injured animal -- the dog gets excited and tries to polish off the squeaky toy. You are inciting instincts . 

I don't even want to know -- but if the GSD was toying with the bichon there would have been a blood bath to come home to . Lucky that the yorkie wasn't caught up in the excitement . It could have been worse.
The bichon could have expired from other reasons - heart ? Are we to assume that the GSD mauled the bichon.

bad management


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Large dogs can go into prey mode with smaller dogs, I live with 2 GSD's and 2 small dogs... My GSD's have very high prey drive but they learn from day one that the small dogs are pack members and that it's not ok to harass them. They are very good with my small dogs, that said I NEVER leave them alone together... They are all always crated when I'm gone. Since you won't explain how your GSD got in the bathroom or where the neck wounds came from I'm going to assume they were left out together. Well you learned a hard lesson why this is a very bad idea.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear about your bichon. You did seperate your little guy. Your bichon was in a shut room you could not have known your shepherd be relentless in getting in. How did you find the dogs-I hate to ask. Where there signs of a struggle. There would be if there was one. If not it is very possible the bichon passed away resulting your shepherds behavior of getting into the bathroom. Yes it is the size difference one little altercation is extremely dangerous for the smaller dog. If the bichon was crying in pain it probably upset him and instinctually set the shepherd off. Your shepherd probably have bitten him first time because of the same reason. Growing up we had a poodle who hurt his back and would let out a high pitched scream and would frantically move around. It was very upsetting to everyone when it happened. Had they had any altercations before your bichon fell off bed. How is your shepherd when you leave the house is he anxious? We have a shepherd and a chihuahua and I know how easy somthing like this can happen it is upsetting. We always seperate the chihuahua when we leave the house just for precautions as such size difference there is no room for accidents. Any sort of scuffles could lead to a disaster. Never had to think like this before and always making sure everyone is well behaved it can be stressful especially hearing stories like this. Again it is possible your bichon died before your shepherd got into the bathroom.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Vonbrockhaus... do you have a question? 
Very sad situation, but I suppose now looking forward, you probably need to work with a GOOD trainer that knows protection breeds and devise a plan for EXERCISE and training. A good trainer (I keep saying good because you need a trainer with experience and talent working with protection breeds) may be able to give you more insight. But you really need a trainer to help you move on I would think. You describe an odd situation and without a ton more details and understanding it is impossible to really say what went on there and why. And... while it is hard, don't blame the GSD. The situation sounds chaotic. Sorry.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that is my point -- do not blame the GSD

the bichon likely had damage , concussion, falling off the bed and being unable to move

so how have you been treating the GSD?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how long were you away for the wedding ?
could someone else have come into the house to tend to the dogs and not put them back the way you wanted ?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I am so confused.... OP it's never easy to lose a dog, no matter the circumstances, so I am sorry for your loss.

I think the questions here aren't to negate your story or anything but there are just a lot of missing pieces.. so no one knows what to respond to or what you are wanting us to respond to.

Some questions about things that are very vague in your original post are:

The initial fall, how did your Bichon fall? and what were the punctures from? Why did you not take him/her to the vet after this incident? 

There's confusion on the placement of the dogs.. so initially it sounded like you had your Bichon in a crate in a closed bathroom with you GSD outside the bathroom. In essence completely separated. But then later you say they were in the bathroom together and the crate was in another room. That's very confusing. 

Going with the original thought of your post, this also leads to how did your GSD get into the room with your Bichon??? There must have been marks or scratches or some obvious signs that he broke into the room if the door was secure. 

Then my own question, there isn't anything definitive from what you have said to indicate that your GSD killed your Bichon.. so how are you coming to this conclusion? 

Can you maybe explain what happened a little better? Start from the beginning with more details? There's no doubt that there are management issues here, but none of us truly know what we are responding to because there are just SO MANY holes in this story. 

Again, sorry for your loss. I would never wish that on anyone.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Vonbrockhaus said:


> A couple days ago my little bichon fell off the bed and was seriously hurt, not able to move hardly, and wine when touched her .. The next day we found serious wounds on her neck... The wounds stopped bleeding and we thought after about a week she would be OK...
> 
> I suspect your little dog was doomed from the beginning. It doesn't sound like she 'fell' off the bed. It sounds like she was snatched by your GSD, shaken and then flung from the bed. The 'serious wounds' on her neck, and her inability to move should have prompted you to take your 13 year old dog to the vet.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Vonbrockhaus said:


> Not looking for anything.. Just confused why my dog would kill my other dog


My guess would be, there's been a lot going on that you either missed or mis-read. This was the culmination of it.


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## WesS (Apr 10, 2015)

Dogs that are hurt can be aggressive when touched and in pain. Even a playful gsd may have escalated that aggression. And then when the dog responded with similar aggression it did not go very well for the other dog.

Either way it's unclear what happened. But the takeaway message is you did not manage the situation well and the gsd is not at fault or a dangerous dog that needs to be put down. (I think this is why he posted, bu finding the reason, he can appropriate the risk of keeping the gsd.)

All in all. The injured dog not going to the vet and the dogs being together... However what happened was terrible management of the dogs from you. 

Gsd may need work too. But I don't believe the gsd is a problem. I also think you should focus on the gsd and forget about getting a new dog. (Other reason he may be asking this question.)

If my assumptions are wrong...I still say that the gsd is not the culprit, and it would not be a good idea to get a new dog.

Sorry for your loss.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

I smell a troll


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I agree with Gator.


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

carmspack said:


> "Not looking for anything.. Just confused why my dog would kill my other dog "
> 
> Instinct . The dog may have been in pain , screeching , writhing . The GSD responds to this .



That's wat my dad was saying


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

wyoung2153 said:


> I am so confused.... OP it's never easy to lose a dog, no matter the circumstances, so I am sorry for your loss.
> 
> I think the questions here aren't to negate your story or anything but there are just a lot of missing pieces.. so no one knows what to respond to or what you are wanting us to respond to.
> 
> ...


Yeah I wasn't very good at explaining .. I guess that's why there is alot of odd responses.. But the initial fall was in the middle of the night off my mom and dad's bed.. I told my parents we should take her but my little dog always seemed to come around so I guess they thought she would be okay..

Also there were to separate incidents.. The first time they had been left alone together like always and we came home and she had puncture wounds, we found the bichon under my bed.. This was after the fall.. Night of the wedding we seperate them .. When we get home they are together in the bathroom and the bichons crate is in another room.. I hope this helps a little better? 


I would love to think it was a racoon that came from the attic or something but I don't think that's the case


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## Vonbrockhaus (Jul 19, 2015)

DutchKarin said:


> Vonbrockhaus... do you have a question?
> Very sad situation, but I suppose now looking forward, you probably need to work with a GOOD trainer that knows protection breeds and devise a plan for EXERCISE and training. A good trainer (I keep saying good because you need a trainer with experience and talent working with protection breeds) may be able to give you more insight. But you really need a trainer to help you move on I would think. You describe an odd situation and without a ton more details and understanding it is impossible to really say what went on there and why. And... while it is hard, don't blame the GSD. The situation sounds chaotic. Sorry.



I was just looking if any one had input because she did it after my little dog fell and was hurt.. I try not to blame the gsd and we aren't treating her badly but its just hard to handle


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm sorry for your loss! I can't really add anything to the post analysis event myself but I can tell you that if you truly think the GSD is at fault??? Then you have to may some decisions.

Forgive the dog and let it go and move forward. Or if you can't do that, then foster in place and work with a rescue to find the dog another home.

I had to make that call with my GSD and if you truly feel he is responsible? Then it's going to be hard to move on! 

My GSD gave his BullMastiff/APBT/Lab a very hard time and Gunther passed following the last fight due to unrelated issues. I was not happy with Rocky (GSD) but he was "here" and Gunther was gone. I was not going to "place" Rocky so I had to suck it up and "let it go!" 

If you can't do that..then re-home the dog. Again sorry for your loss.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Please forgive me if I am off, but are you a young person? We really want to help you understand. There is a difference in the way we will try to explain things to you and I know you want to understand.

Help us, help you and we will start over and explain things a little better. We had to "assume" a lot, which is never good. Thanks!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry your dog is dead. 

Bitches fight. Sometimes a young dog will kill an old dog that is failing. Sorry, but they are animals, not humans. We cannot crawl up there in their brains and know what they are thinking. They are a different species, and we can only hypothesize. 

Two bitches should not be let alone together. Some of us do it and some never have an incident. I have a bitch and two yearling bitch-pups together at home right now. But, bitches are ok with other bitches until they are not. One walks by and brushes the other the wrong way, and suddenly it is ON. Bitches will fight until the death, sometimes. 

Sometimes they quit. Hard to say, but if you have had blood between bitches, you can never truly trust them together again.

Some breeds pack up better than others and are more tolerant of same-sex dogs. GSDs are not one of these breeds. That is a cold fact, that you have learned the hard way.

But, ANY dog might take out an elderly, failing dog. There is some instinct that will drive some dogs to kill a dog that is acting distressed or sick. This is why pain and illness often comes out as aggression rather than whimpers, and limping. Dogs in nature will sometimes kill a weak member. And that instinct is not dead.

This dog is not bad. It just is a dog, not a little person. We look at them as our babies, or our fur-kids, but they are not. This thinking gets us in trouble a lot of times, because we feel genuinely hurt, take it personally, when our dog betrays us like this. It is a way that we betray our dogs. The dog is a dog, and we need to manage dogs so that they are safe from each other, regardless of why the altercation took place.

Again, sorry for your loss. It is a hard thing that most of us never want to deal with. But your dog does not need to be put down. You need to get over your negative feelings for this dog. Accept that while the dog acted like some dogs will, you should've have done something different, but you didn't know that. Most of us have dodged a bullet with a beloved dog. Unfortunately you didn't dodge it. And that is hard.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Vonbrockhaus said:


> I was just looking if any one had input because she did it after my little dog fell and was hurt.. I try not to blame the gsd and we aren't treating her badly but its just hard to handle


I am so sorry for your loss. What Selzer said is very true in the animal world being hurt and old is a signal to other animals. I have had males who have beenincrdibly aggressive w/ other males to the point they would kill. It is so hard to go through what your gong through. I agree get w/ a trainer and find a way that your GSD isnt alone with smaller or weaker animals. I can only imagine the pain your in. The problem is how do you handle the GSD from her on out.She is an animal and like Selzer said eeven though they live in our world they still are anuimals first and those instincts are very strong.I learned something in this thread that I knew but perhaps forgot about animal instincts. Take care.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> Please forgive me if I am off, but are you a young person? We really want to help you understand. There is a difference in the way we will try to explain things to you and I know you want to understand.
> 
> Help us, help you and we will start over and explain things a little better. We had to "assume" a lot, which is never good. Thanks!


This was my thought too (in no way trying to offend) but just seemed like it. We might be able to better explain knowing your age.


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## UWMsGirl (Apr 19, 2015)

Sorry for your loss. But I just have to ask....WHY would you not take your dog to the Vet?? Sure you said she has recovered from things in the past but when a dog is in pain by even a simple touch....uh that poor thing should have been rushed to the Vet. No excuses. I can only imagine how confused your GSD must have been, not knowing what to do.


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

UWMsGirl said:


> Sorry for your loss. But I just have to ask....WHY would you not take your dog to the Vet?? Sure you said she has recovered from things in the past but when a dog is in pain by even a simple touch....uh that poor thing should have been rushed to the Vet. No excuses. I can only imagine how confused your GSD must have been, not knowing what to do.


^ This.

I also wouldn't have let my GSD alone with the other dog after knowing that they're no longer safe around each other. That's just asking for trouble.


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