# Breeding With Only Prelims?!



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I was browsing through a breeder website the other day (not a breeder I find reputable personally) and saw that one of their males had already sired a litter, before he reached the age of 1. He was no older than 9 MONTHS old when he was bred, and while I understand that the age of the dam is more important (she was 2 years old), I have difficulty understanding how ethical it would be to breed a 9 month old male.

He did have prelims down, apparently, and the dam was OFA Fair H/E, and the sire did earn his UKC CH before the puppies were born, but... 9 months old? Is this truly acceptable? How much do prelims count for anyway?

Just looking for some thoughts on this.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

not acceptable in my opinion.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Not much, I've seen plenty of dogs pass prelims and then later in life fail to pass OFA.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

While Jethro is an AWESOME pup there is no way I would breed him (if I were the owner and all that) cuz he is simply TOO YOUNG to know exactly what he will show as an adult. He is still very puppish. I would never breed a dog so young. Like human kids let them be kids as they will grow up all too fast anyway. There is no way to determine health or temperament fully in a 9 month old. But ya know the AKC will allow any "dog" 7 months or older to conceive and they will register the litter. While the AKC is not all that high IMO they are the "recognized registry" for the US. Until the AKC AND OWNERS step up and take responsibility people will continue to breed mixes, dogs too young and dogs too old.

But in my opinion many breeds including SOME GSD's, I do not feel they are mature enough at 2 to be bred.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

No. It's not just hips. There are a lot of genetic health issues that can arise between 9 months and 2 years . By the time these diseases manifest, this dog may have sired lots of litters. What then? Does the breeder give a health guarantee for genetic illness for the next couple of years? Or do buyers simply get an "oops, sorry."







if something unfortunate gets passed along? 

We already have this risk with GDV, because dogs often don't bloat until they're older. So by the time we realize GDV is an issue, the dog may have created dozens of offspring. That's a risk we take with this breed, although obviously young dogs that bloat idiosyncratically should never be bred. 

There is just no reason to breed a puppy that is still growing. No one can tell me that there aren't plenty of equally fine ADULT stud dogs available with a lot less risk.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

9 months?!?! When I think of Nikon at 9 months, the idea of breeding him makes me laugh and feel very disturbed at the same time. He is 13 months and still looks and acts like a puppy. I could do his a-stamps but I'm waiting (and will also do OFAs at 2 years). I really think males take THREE years to fully mature.

Our breed has enough variety and popularity that there is NO reason a 9 month old should be bred. Even adult OFAd/a-stamped, titled studs are a dime a dozen.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree this is a much bigger issue than just hips/elbows. Yes, many dogs pass prelims but fail OFA certs at 2. Others will say that one can't argue that a dog with prelims is too young to have reliable hip/elbow evaluation when other countries certify much younger (12 months) compared to OFAs 24 months.

But regardless of prelims or not, at 9 months the dog is too young. Period. A dog of that age is still very mentally and physically immature. It is impossible to know what his adult structure, health, and most importantly temperament will be. Therefore it is impossible to determine if he is a dog worthy of being bred, or what sort of bitch he should be matched with to obtain good results. There is just way to much growing and maturing left to do, and thus way to many unknowns to make breeding such a dog a remotely good idea. Most GSD females aren't fully mature until around 2 years, sometimes closer to 3. And it can take 3-4 years for a male to be fully mature and thus able to be accurately evaluated.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your input and helpful thoughts. I, too, thought 9 months old was only a baby, but thought others would find that "anthropomorphizing" (was actually told that by someone when I inquired about the age of their breeding dogs), so just wanted to hear what everyone had to say.


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