# Dog aggression & generally keyed up



## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

I'm so tired of this. Zack is 4 years old. I've worked with private trainers, who employed everything from e-collars (not good) to cookies. We've done Control Unleashed- I even attended a workshop to learn more. We play the "look at that" game constantly & he is usually good if the situation is under control, i.e., he's on leash & I'm machine-gunning treats to him. BUT, if another dog stares at him and I'm not right there to handle the situation- he's lunging, growling, etc. He's from working lines - Czech border dogs - and some of his siblings are also constantly keyed up.

I take him out a lot (he's terrible in the car too - barking, whining, jumping - always has been. I have the "Through a Dog's Ear" cd's & they didn't help either.)

I cook for him. I've had his thyroid checked and he gets complete blood panels every year. I use the Click to Calm methods. We do NILIF. He's on a no-pull harness. He gets tons of exercise - both ball playing and long walks. In short, there is nothing I haven't done. Last night we went to a park where a club trains (for more socialization.) He got loose due to me fumbling with the leash, ran across the park & started sniffing a rottweiler. Within seconds it turned into a fight - no blood, just noise. The owner is in a wheelchair. I wanted to die right there. We left immediately.

He's a GREAT obedience dog, learns quickly, loves to work with me. But I cannot trust him off leash. This rott was just standing there - and Zack got into prey drive & took off. I called him & he hesitated but apparently my very high value cookies were not as enticing as this dog minding his own business.

At home, he can be a pain. If another dog barks in the neighborhood, he chimes in. The UPS man? Forget it - he's lunging & barking & cannot be stopped. In most cases, I can get him to "quiet" (except UPS) but that sharp-out-of-nowhere bark is rattling. Sometimes, I swear, he barks at leaves that are falling. He's always been keyed up.

He suffers from allergies & is on antihistamines. They don't calm him down. They don't key him up either - they have basically no effect on his mood & little on his allergies. We've done holistic vets, allopathic vets & everybody in between. I have an allopathic vet now who is great & we're controlling his allergies through shots, baths, etc. Do I need to tell you I've spent, literally, tens of thousands of dollars on this guy? I still love him dearly & would spend another kings ransom. 

So, now I'm wondering if he has a chemical imbalance in his brain. Has anybody ever tried Prozac or other types of SSRI's? I absolutely HATE going this route - but we aren't happy around here. I got him to accompany my husband & myself on trips - but that doesn't happen. I can give him "ace" - but that seems extreme. I can't even take him to a farmer's market because I have to constantly watch him. It seems the minute I take my eye off of him - a blue eyed BC comes around the corner and he's nuts.

I guess I'm asking if anybody has ever used an SSRI or even an older fashioned tricyclic (they have sedating tendencies) to keep their dogs under threshold?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I am interested to hear the replies given because while Shenzi is not always 'keyed up' she has her moments where nothing but an 'I just killed you' will 'break' the current mentality shes in. Nothing has happened, just on our normal walk or playing or whatever and suddenly its like she's spooked at something and is looking in all directions and acting quite 'keyed up'. When she is like this and sees someone her reactivity goes back to sq. 1. We are working through it by drilling her to get her attention back on me-I don't like giving her 'I just killed you' corrections...


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm interested too. Just started with another trainer myself for some of the same issues.


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

Deathmetal said:


> -I don't like giving her 'I just killed you' corrections...


I used an e-collar and prong collar for about 9 months - they made it worse. It seemed to escalate the problem, especially when the collars were off. I've had the best results using the book Control Unleashed & actually attended a 2 day seminar. BUT, I still can't trust him unless I constantly monitor him & it seems after 2+ years, we should be further along. I will say, however, that I don't get the over threshold lunging at other dogs - even when they're lunging at him - when I use those methods.

Just my experience - and I'm certainly no expert.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Corrections tend to escalate the issue when the dog a)doesnt understand what a correction is(i.e I'm getting shocked-what does it mean?) and b) the correction isnt hard enough to 'reach' the dog. There is a mighty fine line between an I killed you, the right correction, and a 'nagging' correction. Also, some dogs view a correction as a contest, how high are you willing to go. With these dogs you need to try everything to find a correction that reachs that particular dog and it doesnt become a pissing contest. I've worked with a dog that would yawn at everything I tried until I got my dog and worked with him in front of him. Now after that didnt he change his tune? 
The problem with people who use ecollars and prongs don't use it properly. The problems got worse after you took them off because the dog NEW you had no backup. The dog cannot correlate the correction with a particular object-especially a collar. You cannot just put the collar on a dog and expect a miracle. If you do not understand the correction or how to apply it a trainer should be sought for a lesson. I have heard people who do not take the collar off, to people who put it on 30-45 minutes before the training session. It all depends on your preferences and your training schedule and most of all-your expectations.
I have heard VERY good things about control unleashed, I have not looked into it. When I have some money kicking around I will buy the book and dvd, because everyone is raving on this.
I know how you feel about thinking you should be further along in your training-I do not know what your issues consist of, but I will tell you that if you have made any progress in the last 2 years you have done your job. You are trying, and sometimes thats all that matters. If you give 110% to it, any progress, and I mean any progress, should be viewed as a WIN.

Edit:I'm not an expert. If someone could help us, please chime in!


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

I care for a reactive mutt (gsd mix) named Allie who did much, much better on prozac. This was after tons of behavioral mod that we decided to try the meds. They really helped a ton, she was still reactive, but less so, and it allowed her to think, which allowed the behavioral mod stuff to work.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Does Zack have an outlet for his drives, or everything has always been aimed exclusively towards calming him down?


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

GSD07 said:


> Does Zack have an outlet for his drives, or everything has always been aimed exclusively towards calming him down?


I make sure he has an outlet for his drives. He LOVES tennis balls & gets several vigorous games each day. He gets long walks with me and now that it is cooler, we'll do some running. He gets big raw bones 1-2X week to chew on. So, yeah, I make sure he has some outlets for his energy.

Regarding the previous post about prong/ecollars - I don't want to get into a debate - Lord knows, we've exhausted that subject. But, I do want him/her to know that I learned how to use these devices under an experienced trainer who has 30 years of experience. We did several weeks of collar on/collar off before any shock was applied. I know about correcting vs nagging. For Zack, it escalated him. Other dogs - it might work. I wanted my original post to be complete as regards to everything I've tried.

I guess there is a doggie Prozac on the market - didn't know that. Has anybody used it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you do anything for his mental exercise? Agility, tracking are great outlets for higher anxiety dogs. I know it is hard to bring them into a training environment with agiltiy equipment, but maybe you can make some yourself for home. Tracking is free and easy to do, really is a great way for a dog to get mental exercise and it is confidence building when you quietly praise him along the way.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I know a few people who have tried this with varying degrees of success. (Rescue Remedy for dogs) It's not on the same level as Prozac type drugs but it also doesn't have the side effects or long term problems associated with some drugs. 

Natural stress relief for pets - Rescue® Remedy Pet

Have you done any research on reactive dogs to see if he falls into that catagory?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Dogmama, I cannot even begin to stress how much I appreciate having someone prove me wrong. Seriously.
I'm 21 years old, and female. 
I did mention in my post some dogs don't respond to corrections the way we want...
I have no knowledge whatsoever on doggie prozac. I have experience with people paxil ( 3 months to fix some people issues, pm me if you want more info, I'm open about it) and I have to say I completely agree with using it-the right way. It should be coupled with behaviour modifying excercises and strict supervision in humans. In dogs, I don't know. I would couple it with the behaviour modifying, take it slow and lower my expectations a little through the transition period. I would also get some really good information from an individual who has taken this route before.
Like other tools, don't expect a miracle, and take it slow if this is the route you decide to take.
I've written most of this post not directed at you, but for those who havnt spent time working with the real deal who are thinking about this route. I really hope someone here has done this and can actually help.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The doggy prozac is clamicalm? It is designed to treat separation anxiety. It lowers the dogs anxiety level so that as mentioned, behaviour modification can have an effect. It is designed for short-term use, like six months. Like prozac, it works by boosting the serotonin levels in the brain. It takes weeks for the brain neurons to grow extra dendrons to be able to take up the extra serotonin, but it is not a drug that "drugs" you, or your dog - rather it normalizes brain chemistry, but that is why it takes a while to work. 

My vet was saying that it has been found to decrease aggression in some dogs, but not always. I don't know if it works on dog-aggression, as that is a different dynamic than aggression aimed at people. I think if you feel that you have exhausted other venues, it won't do any harm to try it. There has not been any negative effects reported in dogs that I have heard or read about.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

dogmama said:


> I make sure he has an outlet for his drives. He LOVES tennis balls & gets several vigorous games each day. He gets long walks with me and now that it is cooler, we'll do some running. He gets big raw bones 1-2X week to chew on. So, yeah, I make sure he has some outlets for his energy.


 I didn't mean outlets for his energy but more along the lines that onyx'girl wrote. How do you challenge his mind? You wrote that he's a good obedience dog, and that's great. Has he been trained around distractions before letting off leash? Tracking is excellent because, from my experience, 10 min track equals to an hour fetching in terms of using the energy, plus it gives your dog a sense of accomplishment and success. Does he like to play tug and roughhouse?


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

GSD07 said:


> I didn't mean outlets for his energy but more along the lines that onyx'girl wrote. How do you challenge his mind? You wrote that he's a good obedience dog, and that's great. Has he been trained around distractions before letting off leash? Tracking is excellent because, from my experience, 10 min track equals to an hour fetching in terms of using the energy, plus it gives your dog a sense of accomplishment and success. Does he like to play tug and roughhouse?


He isn't let off leash yet. I do train around distractions & as long as I have his full attention & a pocket full of treats, he's golden. He loves to learn and I do sense that he has a great sense of accomplishment. You're absolutely right - I need to pursue this. (Humans! They're so thick headed sometimes!)

I know absolutely nothing about tracking. Where do I start? I don't even know of a club or individual who does tracking around here - but I'll start looking. THANK YOU!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This link has articles on tracking: http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/nose1.html
You can start tracking easily by just doing scent pads and then moving on to a straight track with food every step. Eventually take away the amount of food and start putting articles down. Dogs do enjoy tracking!


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

Wow - great article! Thanks so much! I printed it and we'll start today. I can see where this would be of TREMENDOUS value to Zack. (1) He thinks (2) He succeeds (3) He eats. Perfect!!!


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

Doggy prozac is just overpriced prozac. My vet gave us a script for regular prozac, which we got from the pharmacy, $4 paid for 2 months worth. Allie was on it for 7 months I think, maybe 8, with her it did help lower her aggression/reactivity and allowed the behavior modification to help. She is still a bit reactive but is way better now. She wouldn't have gotten there without the prozac. With some dogs it can do the opposite and make them worse. You won't know until you try it though. She was a little woozy for the first 2 weeks on, then was her normal self but a bit less edgy.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

OK, I just glanced and did NOT read everything written.

But why does your dog need to be off leash? Some dogs just don't like other dogs. IMO, sometimes we just need to accept who they are.


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

gagsd said:


> OK, I just glanced and did NOT read everything written.
> 
> But why does your dog need to be off leash? Some dogs just don't like other dogs. IMO, sometimes we just need to accept who they are.


I wanted to show in AKC obedience & Rally...sigh. It may never happen.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Understood.
If your dog is totally out of control, you can't do anything. But with some manners, you can do rally novice, beginner novice ob, and I have put a BH on my da dog. A friend put a BH, OB1-3 on her da dog.

I hate to use the term dominant, but if your dog is, then all the anti-anxiety drugs won't help much. Exhaustion does(speaking from personal experience). Mental and physical exhaustion, and my boy walks right past all other dogs.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Do not lose hope! Hunther is dog aggressive, and went on to get his Schutzhund III and compete in the regional trials one year (while he was a SchH I). He went from staring/stalking/"exploding" at a neutral dog from 75 feet down to 48 feet, to reporting in with a dog we had only practiced reporting in with after two sets of ten repetitions before trial day. 

I still have to watch him like a hawk around other dogs, and will have to for the rest of his life I suppose, but that's the price I'm willing to pay for this little "monster." I'd clone him if I could.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

dogmama said:


> I wanted to show in AKC obedience & Rally...sigh. It may never happen.


Maybe, it may not. But if you and Zack find yourself interested in tracking, you may go for AKC tracking titles TCoW - The Tracking Club of Wisconsin - Tracking Information .


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Just rev up the exercise double time and work on reactivity slowly. Don't put him in a situation where you know he'll react instead start him a distance away from known triggers and work your way closer slowly. I have a monster on my hands who is actually just now starting to make real strides with people coming into our home, slow, but strides nonetheless


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think the handler also needs practice on how to sucessfully deal with situations, you and your dog are a team, if you don't handle the situation and do his thinking for him, he's going to act on his own instincts......
honestly i would get a private trainer work with them in controlled situations so you can gain confidence in handling things.......
i don't like the prozac idea unless its the last resort, if anything i would try some of the alternative calming things first........
you may always have to be a proactive owner keeping control of this dog, but you can manage it........


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

as far as off leash with other dogs, i wouldn't let that happen either, i know it was an accident with the rottie, but, extreme prey drive dogs and alot of the working line dogs are not real doggie day care material..they want to dominate, herd, or protect, etc, etc.....unless you have a professional present and another non reactive safe dog to set things up i wouldn't let it happen......


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> i think the handler also needs practice on how to sucessfully deal with situations, you and your dog are a team, if you don't handle the situation and do his thinking for him, he's going to act on his own instincts......
> honestly i would get a private trainer work with them in controlled situations so you can gain confidence in handling things.......
> i don't like the prozac idea unless its the last resort, if anything i would try some of the alternative calming things first........
> you may always have to be a proactive owner keeping control of this dog, but you can manage it........


I have worked with many private trainers and he does quite well in class situations.* During our walks, he can walk by dogs that are lunging at him & as long as I play the "look at that" game, with treats, no problems. We can heel by other dogs in very close proximity, as long as I'm watching him & have him engaged with me.

My problem is that I have to constantly watch him. I can't take him off leash & do a recall, for example, because if a BC gives him the blue eyes, he's gone (he was attacked by a BC, long story.) OR, if any other dog appears to be challenging him, he will react.

So, we're stuck. Yes, I can control him as long as I watch him constantly. I'd like to NOT have to do that. It gets very tiring - plus - if I wanted to go to a farmers market or other type of venue, I cannot relax & look at the merchandise because I have to watch for other dogs. 

My hope with an SSRI would be to move him to the next level - "If a dog appears & Mom doesn't appear with cookies - it's OK - I'll be alright." I would hope that if he could assimilate that, we could then wean him off of doggie prozac. 

*As a side note, I've also attended the Control Unleashed 2 day seminar, read books like "Click to Calm" and I work with him a lot. I didn't want anybody to think I have this loose cannon dog that I just want to drug up. I would never do that.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think unfortunately you just have a reactive dog. I didn't read through this whole post before my first response sorry for my lame answer,lol You have put in the time and money making great strides, but if after all this issues are still there you may have to come to the realization this is your dog's personality. I had a dog like him growing up. A male doberman named Hercules who was awesome with the family, most guests, and other dogs. His issue was people on bikes, skateboards, roller skates, and boats . On leash we worked up to the point he wasn't reactive at all even without treats, but off leash he would attack anything moving with a human on it. We couldn't trust him off leash and I remember it driving my parents nuts because it threw a wrench in a lot of activities we wanted to include him in as well as caused him to miss out on things our other dogs got to enjoy. No going to the bike path or lake for him off leash so he watched our other 2 dobes run, play fetch, and swim. No beach, no off leash romping in open fields, no vacations with him, or taking him to other friends houses. You can't anticipate what will come around the corner and the risk isn't worth it.

Back then there wasn't antidepressants for dogs, but trying can't hurt. I unfortunately don't think it will solve your problem honestly though since these drugs are aimed at chemical imbalances that cause anxiety and depression. They do sedate behaviors and block or replace certain chemicals, but his issue seems more hard wired and inherited- not imbalanced so to speak. Give it try though the worst that can happen is it won't work and you know you at least tried which is better than nothing at this point. Maybe he can't go to the farmer's market or run in an unfenced area off leash, but he can still be a companion


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am sure you have been totally commited to your dog and these issues...........it can get tiring to have to constantly be aware of things when you have your dog in public.....

it does sound like he's reactive, but also sounds like he has certain triggers.......alot of dogs don't like eye contact or starring from other dogs, to them its a challenge, and BC's are noted to do just that..........i had the same problem with Sam in agility, there was a BC that would constantly stare at him, and that did set him off.......i talked to the instructor and ask her if she could make the BC's owner aware of it, etc.....not that you can control starring everywhere, and some owners are simpley not aware their dogs are doing it........
you can try the medication route see what happens, along with more training tecniques and countering........some dogs are hardwired to be more suspicious and have certain gennetic triggers that can be managed, but you always do have to be on top of things.............
all any of us can do when dealing with these quirks is keep searching for ways to help things that work for our individual dogs........not every training tecnique is going to work for every dog, sometimes you need to really study your dog, know him well, and get creative, find something that works better for that individual dog........it can be frustrating but as time goes on most of us find some answers....


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also think obviously your dog is a bit fearful/unsure and having a dog like that myself, i have learned that i need to handle the situations so he knows i will make his decisions for him that i will protect him or remove him from any situations he's uncomfortable with or may react to..........with a dog like this the long term hope is that they will trust that you will keep them safe and they do not need to percieve threats because you will handle things.........and they can relax, etc........


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

*An update - saw a DVM Behaviorist*

Just to update this thread, I saw a vet who is also a certified behaviorist, aka dog psychiatrist. We spend 4.5 hours with her! We will continue to follow up and here are her observations:

Our dogs that come from working backgrounds (Zack's mom & dad are Czech border dogs) often are naturally keyed up. It's genetics & there's not a lot you can do to make wholesale changes, although they can be modified to a certain extent. Training and behavior modification are always the first tact. She said that we've done much more than most people in that area.  She encouraged us to continue working on reactivity to maintain what we've accomplished but she acknowledged that we've gone as far as we can.

She put Zack on generic Prozac. We are working up to 40mg/day slowly. We are at 30mg/day now and I'm noticing really nice changes. He is MUCH more relaxed but NOT sedated. He seems more confident around other dogs on our walks. He doesn't bark at leaves that hit the ground but he does still bark at strangers and that horrible UPS man . In general, he seems happier, but not drugged or goofy. He hasn't turned into a Lab, mind you, still isn't crazy about baths or having his nails dremeled. Riding in the car is still a challenge BUT (here's the BIG thing) he calms himself more readily. That is a major accomplishment and something that I've wanted to achieve - not going over threshold so that I can show him that riding in the car is safe.

She wants the protein content of his food to be in the low 20%. She said hot food will often aggravate reactive dogs. She wants him on a head collar so that I can turn his attention towards me when necessary, so we're working on that. We are redoubling NILIF and working on confidence building exercises - like out-of-sight stays around the house while knocking on the door, ringing the doorbell, etc. 

We have a DAP collar that seems to help too. It releases pheromones that mimic a pup's mother while nursing. The key is to keep it fairly tight so that his body heat will release the pheromones. The medium/large collar fits & is good for 30 days. I found the best price on Amazon.

Lastly, we now walk with a citronella spray (Spray Shield) for off leash dogs that challenge Zack. The vet said the smell is repulsive to dogs, as opposed to pepper spray that actually hurts dogs. She said repelling via a smell won't make dogs react whereas pain (pepper spray) often exacerbates the problem. We walk in areas where most dogs are leashed but there are a few...

So, that is the update.


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

Sounds like you are making progress, good luck! I know prozac helped Allie a ton with her reactivity.


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## rcase (Jul 7, 2010)

I have a pup that has a similar genetic background, and he is kind of keyed up. He's fine around people but barks lunges and at barks at other dogs while on the leash. I am trying many of the same things that you are, and I am making some progress. He used to react to seeing any dog at any distance. Now, if he is about 25 yards away from a dog, he doesn't usually react. The type of dog makes a difference. Happy-go-lucky labs are all good. Pits and other GSDs are not good. I hope that you keep us up to date on your dog, and I hope it goes well for you.


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

*Update*

Interestingly - other dogs are not reacting to Zack like they used to. For example, we'll be on our walks & two dogs in front of us will start barking & lunging at each other. You'd think that now they're adrenalized & when they see Zack, they'd do the same thing. Half of the time, we walk by like we are invisible.

I told my doggie shrink (DVM Behaviorist) and she said Zack has probably given up his tough guy signals. She said dogs communicate in many different ways that we don't notice, i.e., posturing, giving off scent, etc. Zack apparently has outgrown the chains, tattoos & swagger.

He's on his maintenance dose (40 mg for a 100 pound dog). It will take another month to fully assess the results. So far, though, I like what I'm seeing. Not sedated, but more confident & happy in his own fur!


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## rebelsgirl (May 19, 2005)

I haven't read the whole topic here yet but will when I get a chance. I just wanted to warn you about Ace. It can cause a reactive dog to be worse.





Our Reactive GSD took it on a trip to the coast and she almost killed my pomeranian without provocation. She had never been reactive to him before.

On another note. Zoe, my reactive one, she has been on Fluoxetine for awhile now. I've been watching her like a hawk, and documenting how she's doing. So far, so good. She is a little more relaxed than she was. She doesn't go back to class till January. The trainer wanted to give her some time off to see how she does with the medication.


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## dogmama (Nov 17, 2006)

My doggie shrink also warned me about "Ace." She said it's like having a drunk dog - you never know what's going to set him/her off. Or, they might just sleep. Kinda like humans.


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