# Kira charged a guest in my home



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

**** I KNOW I'LL GET BADLY FLAMED FOR THIS, BUT I'LL TAKE MY LUMPS AS THEY COME****

Kira did something rather strange. It happened a few days ago, and I've been meaning to write about it. And once again, it involved her not being comfortable with people in my home.

Before I describe, I just want to say that she's been an absolute angel with guests. Very neutral, sniff and walk away. Generally paid no attention to anyone.

A few days ago, my wife had a female friend over. the woman was in my house at least 2 hours before anything happened.

Kira was sitting on her ottoman (completely out of sight), in the front portion of my house. She knew the woman was there, and was neutral.

My wife was with her friend, in the family room towards the rear of my house. As I mentioned, they were completely out of sight.
My 13 yr old daughter had an incident at school, and my wife, her friend, and my daughter were chatting in the family room. I was in the kitchen.

At one point, my 13 yr old had gotten a little teary eyed, and the woman got up from her chair, and walked over to console my daughter, and wipe her tears.
Without a clue, Kira bolted off her ottoman, came barking and charging. At first I thought she had seen her cat friend, but quickly realized that she went to neutralize the woman. She didn't nip, jump or bite. She charged, and stopped at the woman. I intervened, and removed her.

I was startled by this. 
Could she have picked up the sound of my daughter's sniffles? There was no way Kira had a visual on her. There are lots of walls and turns separating the rooms.

It's getting to a point where I may have to crate Kira, whenever ANYONE is in my home. As great as she can be, she's apparently not too comfortable with people in my home. It's not the first time.
She's been fine for months. I never expected this.


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## Axel'smommy (Dec 26, 2012)

I am no expert. My mom's GSD is such a great dog, but she gets very nervous if any of the kids are upset. Your girl probably sensed your daughter was upset and was just being protective.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

It is completely possible that she was picking up on the emotional state of everyone involved, no need to be in the same room. However, this friend was not a threat and so Kira's reaction was inappropriate as you already know.

Not much else to tell you that hasn't already been said in past threads. You know how to handle it. She needs to be managed in situations where you know she'll react, either by tethering her to you or removing her completely.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> It is completely possible that she was picking up on the emotional state of everyone involved, no need to be in the same room. However, this friend was not a threat and so Kira's reaction was inappropriate as you already know.
> 
> Not much else to tell you that hasn't already been said in past threads. You know how to handle it. She needs to be managed in situations where you know she'll react, either by tethering her to you or removing her completely.


I was completely startled and caught off guard. I agree the reaction was inappropriate, and would I have to take measures going forward.
She's been so good. People come and go all day, never an issue.

I acknowledge, that she did go through something a while back, but I haven't any reason to believe that she would charge a guest.

I honestly think that she thought the woman somehow posed a threat. She came charging as soon as the woman touched my daughter's face.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am confused. You say she had no visual on her. Could it be possible she just reacted to your daughter crying?


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't doubt that Kira heard the new person move. 

Dogs' hearing is insane. They can memorize what their owner's car or footsteps sound like coming to the door. Ozzy doesn't get excited at all when my mom comes home - pull in the driveway, open the garage, come in. Now when I come home, he goes NUTS. 

Kira was probably listening in and heard your daughter crying, then she probably heard (what she thought) the woman advance, and she acted how she felt was necessary. 
Obviously you know this was an inappropriate response, but I think people forget just how incredible our dogs' senses are sometimes.

I don't see why anyone would flame you for this. It sounds like Kira was being a typical protective German shepherd. Luckily no one was hurt, but let it be a learning experience. Even if she goes several months of being perfect, it only takes a split second for something to go wrong; it sounds like you've learned from this and will manage her accordingly.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Konotashi said:


> I don't doubt that Kira heard the new person move.
> 
> Dogs' hearing is insane. They can memorize what their owner's car or footsteps sound like coming to the door. Ozzy doesn't get excited at all when my mom comes home - pull in the driveway, open the garage, come in. Now when I come home, he goes NUTS.
> 
> ...


Okay this makes perfect sense. Hans can tell who is approaching by the sound of the footsteps at the front door, and he is penned in the back room of the house. I don't know what to tell you, Anthony.

Time and time again she has done things like this and you're always surprised.
I think it's time she's crated when people are over.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I am confused. You say she had no visual on her. Could it be possible she just reacted to your daughter crying?


There was absolutely NO WAY Kira had a visual on the woman and my daughter. 



Konotashi said:


> I don't doubt that Kira heard the new person move.
> 
> Dogs' hearing is insane. They can memorize what their owner's car or footsteps sound like coming to the door. Ozzy doesn't get excited at all when my mom comes home - pull in the driveway, open the garage, come in. Now when I come home, he goes NUTS.
> 
> ...


I've been a good student for over a year, and this is another lesson learned.
I can honstly say that all indications are that Kira had an "ear" on this woman at all times. While that's absolutely incredible, it's also a warning not to take her calmness for granted. She could be sitting 40-50 feet away, completely out of sight, and still be guarding her territory. 
Good in a sense that she protects her home, but bad that she protects it when I'm there, and without a clue or reason.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Okay this makes perfect sense. Hans can tell who is approaching by the sound of the footsteps at the front door, and he is penned in the back room of the house. I don't know what to tell you, Anthony.
> 
> Time and time again she has done things like this and you're always surprised.
> *I think it's time she's crated when people are over*.


I don't disagree, but you all know that I'm very eager to train her, and correct her. So in my defense, I don't easily accept her behavior as something I have to live with.
OTOH, if she's going to be unpredictable, I may not have a choice.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I would hazard a guess (since no-one truly saw the whole incident) that Kira heard the guest get up, got up to check and see what they were doing, saw the woman touching your daughter and reacted to that.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Wanted to add - when DH & I are in the kitchen getting our dinner ready Mauser will jump up on the couch on DHs side and lay down.

As soon as he *HEARS *DH walking out of the kitchen (the couch faces away from that door so he can't SEE it), he either moves over to MY side or jumps off.

(We usually eat at trays while sitting on the couch so we can watch tv. The dogs know this routine and Mauser knows I'm more apt to let him stay on the couch - even on my side - while we are eating. DH will ALWAYS tell Mauser to get off.)

Dogs can hear more things than we can imagine.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> I don't disagree, but you all know that I'm very eager to train her, and correct her. So in my defense, I don't easily accept her behavior as something I have to live with.
> OTOH, if she's going to be unpredictable, I may not have a choice.


I would hate to have it come to a bite for you to accept the fact that she is just not going to change. This is who she is, Anthony. And you know that, you just don't want to accept it.

I can understand it's hard to face it. But you really don't want somebody to get seriously hurt either, and have Kira pay the price.
Those jaws have, what, 300 pounds of pressure? And sharp teeth. She could easily rip half of someone's face off before anyone has a chance to do a thing about it.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I would hazard a guess (since no-one truly saw the whole incident) that Kira heard the guest get up, got up to check and see what they were doing, saw the woman touching your daughter and reacted to that.


 Anything is possible.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Another possibility is that your daughter didn't appreciate the gesture and Kira picked up on her discomfort.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I would hate to have it come to a bite for you to accept the fact that she is just not going to change. This is who she is, Anthony. And you know that, you just don't want to accept it.
> 
> I can understand it's hard to face it. But you really don't want somebody to get seriously hurt either, and have Kira pay the price.


No, I accept it. I wouldn't have a few months ago, but I've come a long way.
I have a completely different outlook. I've learned quite a bit here, and for the most part have it down to a science.

You don't have to twist my arm with this one. The solution is obvious.

If anything, I'm a little disappointed.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Another possibility is that your daughter didn't appreciate the gesture and Kira picked up on her discomfort.


No she didn't...
My daughter is a little snot with an attitude.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Have you done NILIF with her? I think that before throwing in the towel and crating her when people are over, it'd be good to tie her to you. That way she can still be out, but be safely secured to you and you can issue any praise/corrections as necessary. 

I haven't been on the board much lately, so I'm not up-to-date with everything you've been trying, but if you can work with her on this safely, definitely try that before giving up. (And you don't seem like the give-up type). 
Just remember it will likely be something you will ALWAYS have to manage and watch.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anthony, is it normal behavior for Kira to be sitting in a seperate room away from the entire family? You were in the kitchen and Wife, Daughter & friend were in another room.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Lilie said:


> Anthony, is it normal behavior for Kira to be sitting in a seperate room away from the entire family? You were in the kitchen and Wife, Daughter & friend were in another room.


Good point. This is not the first time she showed signs that having people over stresses her out.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Anthony, is it normal behavior for Kira to be sitting in a seperate room away from the entire family? You were in the kitchen and Wife, Daughter & friend were in another room.


I won't say it's normal either way. She does interact, and will sit amongst our guests. Many times, she would even make an offering to play with her ball.

Otherwise....

This is where you'll find Kira 99% of her day. 

And that's exactly where she was just prior to her charging in.
She was here the whole time the woman was over.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

In the words of the Taco Bell Chihuahua: "I think I need a beeger box!"


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

It seems, for Kira's own protection, she should be behind a closed door, crated or on lead when strangers are in the house. Period. As was said, the price is too high if she would bite someone.

As far as hearing - GSDs have phenomenal hearing ability. My Csabre will jump on the couch, and look out the window barking.....I look and 3 doors away, someone has come out of their house and is walking their Akita AWAY, not towards, my house. A cat crosses the street - and Csabre will alert on it...again this is 3 and 4 doors away - so at least 150 - 200 feet from my front door, with the door closed, with the TV or music playing. It never ceases to amaze me what she can hear....


It is unfortunate that you have to be so diligent with management, but it seems the safest course of action.

Lee


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's what I thought, lol. I was the same way. If someone had done that to me I'd have wanted to grab their arm and tell them to leave me alone. But she was being polite and held it back - except Kira knew. I don't think you can fault her for what she did, like it or not.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nobody has asked about voices??? People are upset, their voices go up. You say your daughter didn't appreciate the gesture? What was her reaction? Did she loudly and angrily brush the woman off? Maybe even not loudly? I won't say that Kira acted inappropriately because maybe your daughter was acting like she was a threat at that moment and that is what Kira reacted to. I will second all others who say to manage her with crate, other room or on a leash when people are in the house.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It does go to show how sensitive your dogs hearing is. 

I don't know the background on this female but I like her protection skills even if it wasn't needed in this circumstance. 

My female(bullmastiff mix) is pretty sharp too. She doesn't bond with or trust strangers. She is still a great dog though.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Nobody has asked about voices??? People are upset, their voices go up. You say your daughter didn't appreciate the gesture? What was her reaction? Did she loudly and angrily brush the woman off? Maybe even not loudly? I won't say that Kira acted inappropriately because maybe your daughter was acting like she was a threat at that moment and that is what Kira reacted to. I will second all others who say to manage her with crate, other room or on a leash when people are in the house.


A complete oversight on my part. My daughter did raise her voice prior to the woman walking over. I didn't make the connection. The reason the woman walked over, is because my wife was telling her something my daughter didn't want to hear. She walked over, when my daughter started to get agitated.

I won't say she was loud, but she did change her emotion.
The woman wanted to console her.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> That's what I thought, lol. I was the same way. If someone had done that to me I'd have wanted to grab their arm and tell them to leave me alone. But she was being polite and held it back - except Kira knew. I don't think you can fault her for what she did, like it or not.


She's a teenager...

Need I say anymore?

As I said... She's a little snot, with an attitude.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I don't know the background on this female but I like her protection skills even if it wasn't needed in this circumstance. .


Many people confuse fear aggression and reactivity with protection. This female does not have protection skills.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> I won't say it's normal either way. She does interact, and will sit amongst our guests. Many times, she would even make an offering to play with her ball.
> 
> Otherwise....
> 
> ...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

So...your daughter will be sneaking Kira some steak later? Lol, I shouldn't make light of this, but really - Kira did protect her. It doesn't matter what the woman's intentions were, if your daughter didn't like it, that's that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The main point I got out of this story is that she *stopped*. *Kira stopped*, she didn't go through with the charge. So she heard your daughter, thought she was threatened, went to intervene, saw that there was no threat and immediately stopped.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Anthony8858 said:
> 
> 
> > I won't say it's normal either way. She does interact, and will sit amongst our guests. Many times, she would even make an offering to play with her ball.
> ...


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anthony8858;2905898 I do believe that your assessment about the emotions are accurate. It was an uneasy subject said:


> I could easily read this part without using my crystal ball as I too have a daughter. Been there, done that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony "And once again, it involved her not being comfortable with people in my home." Things are not going to change with the dog . How many so far , the kids' guests, the party , now this . Crystal ball not needed to see that if you don't remove dog safely to crate or kennel or room with door closed that one day , she will get excited , pushed too far and bite . You were lucky you were there to stop her in the nick of time , lucky that the guest did not act in a way to get her more excited. Humans are emotional -- there will always be emotion - this dog can't handle it , so , you have to handle the dog , protect your guests, your dog , reduce risk and protect your assests against lawsuit and liability.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

1) it's a GSDs "job" to protect it's home and family
2) It's said that females are more "person oriented" to protect, and males tent to protect the home itself
3) It's our job as owners to be aware of that and help the dogs understand that this person isn't a threat.

How you choose to help dog be aware of that is up to you. Mainly we need to protect guests in our home, to some extent or another, that is, depending on the dog, the dog may need a crate, or to go outside, etc. Or may just need to be told, "Hey, pupper, this is Jane and she's a friend". It depends on the dog and how serious they are about their home/people. 

My dad walked in one day without knocking. My GSD at the time grabbed his arm (bit him)...and stopped him. My dad turned swiftly and went out the door.

I told my dad, after all the adrenalin quit flowing, this is why we have a GSD. Don't just walk into my house!!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Anthony "And once again, it involved her not being comfortable with people in my home." Things are not going to change with the dog . How many so far , the kids' guests, the party , now this . Crystal ball not needed to see that if you don't remove dog safely to crate or kennel or room with door closed that one day , she will get excited , pushed too far and bite . You were lucky you were there to stop her in the nick of time , lucky that the guest did not act in a way to get her more excited. Humans are emotional -- there will always be emotion - this dog can't handle it , so , you have to handle the dog , protect your guests, your dog , reduce risk and protect your assests against lawsuit and liability.


Didn't he say that she came in and then stopped and then he removed her? 

That does make a difference, rather than "stopped her in the nick of time." because that means that she didn't go through with it and didn't have to be stopped.

HOWEVER, this is the point where I'd start keeping her in a different room.


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## bryant88 (Jan 22, 2013)

Crating anytime you have company is a BAD IDEA. I learned the hard way. The dog will start to hate people coming over knowing she will have to go to her crate. I would think twice about doing this. I have made this mistake and it completely changed my dog and he hated everybody that came over!!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> A complete oversight on my part. My daughter did raise her voice prior to the woman walking over. I didn't make the connection. The reason the woman walked over, is because my wife was telling her something my daughter didn't want to hear. She walked over, when my daughter started to get agitated.
> 
> I won't say she was loud, but she did change her emotion.
> The woman wanted to console her.


And there you go....a stranger is in the house, voices are raised, family member is agitated and the dog reacts. And as Mrs. K points out...Kira stopped when she realized there was no threat.

If this were a dog that had never had an incident with strangers in the house, I bet the responses would be quite different.

However, because she has had incidences prior to this and she has been noted to be uncomfortable with strangers, I would still make sure her interactions are limited and only positive.

I do not recommend putting her in a closed room because we did that in an emergency situation once with Banshee. All she knew was we left upset and with her litter mate who was hurt, she was locked in a room, some stranger came and took her kids and we came home with her dead litter mate. Anyone she didn't know before can not come thru our front door. And anytime we've put her in a room when people were over, she became even more worked up. Crate where she can still see or leashed would be my suggestion.

If you make her crate her safe spot then the pressure is off her and she won't resent it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

bryant88 said:


> Crating anytime you have company is a BAD IDEA. I learned the hard way. The dog will start to hate people coming over knowing she will have to go to her crate. I would think twice about doing this. I have made this mistake and it completely changed my dog and he hated everybody that came over!!!!


It depends on how you do it! If you do crate games with the dog and make the crate a good place to be, than it's not a problem to take the dog to his/her crate.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Kongs with treats is a nice way to get dogs accustomed to staying in crates while people visit.


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## bryant88 (Jan 22, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> It depends on how you do it! If you do crate games with the dog and make the crate a good place to be, than it's not a problem to take the dog to his/her crate.


I tried making a game out of it but he was having non of that. He never had to crate unless we had company and got to the point he absolutely hated it. I'd say dogs handle it different it's just when they put two and two together is when they change. If you knew you was having company and crated her and she didn't see why I think its fine. But don't let her put two and two together. TRUST ME!!!


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> I don't disagree, but you all know that I'm very eager to train her, and correct her. So in my defense, I don't easily accept her behavior as something I have to live with.
> OTOH, if she's going to be unpredictable, I may not have a choice.


If you're as eager to train her as you say you are, then why are you not training her? Stop giving her the opportunity to act this way. When people come over, if they're comfortable enough with the dog out - tether her, use a corrective type collar. Desensitize her to being around people.


How would you feel now if she had harmed your wifes friend? And she had to get put down? Who's at fault for that? That's right. The owners fault, because you're an adult and you've already predicted that your dog has behavioural issues. So work on them. It's like going back to basics.. when you're potty training a puppy, you take it outside even if they may not have to go. Why? Because you don't need to produce an opportunity for puppy to go in the house in order to correct it. Just don't let it happen.

I've seen dogs act punky and overconfident after getting into dog fights or biting somebody, charging somebody etc. 

Be surprised by yourself, and your irresponsible choice not to take action here. Not by your dog.


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## bryant88 (Jan 22, 2013)

Kaity said:


> If you're as eager to train her as you say you are, then why are you not training her? Stop giving her the opportunity to act this way. When people come over, if they're comfortable enough with the dog out - tether her, use a corrective type collar. Desensitize her to being around people.
> 
> 
> How would you feel now if she had harmed your wifes friend? And she had to get put down? Who's at fault for that? That's right. The owners fault, because you're an adult and you've already predicted that your dog has behavioural issues. So work on them. It's like going back to basics.. when you're potty training a puppy, you take it outside even if they may not have to go. Why? Because you don't need to produce an opportunity for puppy to go in the house in order to correct it. Just don't let it happen.
> ...


I agree with this 100%
Well said


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Kaity said:


> If you're as eager to train her as you say you are, then why are you not training her? Stop giving her the opportunity to act this way. When people come over, if they're comfortable enough with the dog out - tether her, use a corrective type collar. Desensitize her to being around people.
> 
> 
> How would you feel now if she had harmed your wifes friend? And she had to get put down? Who's at fault for that? That's right. The owners fault, because you're an adult and you've already predicted that your dog has behavioural issues. So work on them. It's like going back to basics.. when you're potty training a puppy, you take it outside even if they may not have to go. Why? Because you don't need to produce an opportunity for puppy to go in the house in order to correct it. Just don't let it happen.
> ...


She IS around people every day. She's been fine. She was loose for at least 2 hours prior to the incident. Are you suggesting I sit with her tehered for 2+ hours?
She happily greeted the guest, and went to sleep on her ottoman. She had no problem with her, until there was a perceived threat. In which she inspected, and backed off.


At that point, what is your suggestion?

Should I have anticipated this? She hasn't bothered anyone, and I have been desensitizing her with exposure. I have teenagers, and little ones, and she greets everyone, and hasn't had an issue in quite some time.

I have been working with her to the best of my ability.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Many people confuse fear aggression and reactivity with protection. This female does not have protection skills.


 
I disagree with this. Kira might not be trained in protection, but she sensed something wasn't right and reacted. The key here is that she did stop, meaning she knew that once she approached the situation, it was not a threat. Why do we assume that since she wasn't trained in protection that her response was out of fear? What if she has the qualities that she needs to be a GSD? _It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character._


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" Why do we assume that since she wasn't trained in protection that her response was out of fear? "

because we have Anthony repeatedly writing about situations where the dog was reactive , uncertain , from the time the dog was a youngster, and because many people have warned him to take measures which will basically protect the dog from a bad situation .


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Anthony, this scenario plays itself out daily across our nation. 
You tend to read way too much into Kira's actions, and over-analyze everything but her farts, or maybe you do that too.
But point is...she's a dog. She'll act like a dog. 
You can put your info out here to be shredded, along with your behind, or you can take your toys and go home, which is personally what I'd do at this point.

You've been a good owner to Kira and you just need to be more aware that you have a GSD there, not a Maltese or whatever Coconut is.

If you're like me, you got a GSD to help protect the house, and you need to be aware of that fact. 
Or even if you didn't...or perhaps especially if you didn't, you'd not think she'd want to do that, in spite of how you've raised and trained her. But that doesn't change the fact that our breed is bred to be suspicious.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

bryant88 said:


> I tried making a game out of it but he was having non of that. He never had to crate unless we had company and got to the point he absolutely hated it. I'd say dogs handle it different it's just when they put two and two together is when they change. If you knew you was having company and crated her and she didn't see why I think its fine. But don't let her put two and two together. TRUST ME!!!


Then crate the dog at random times throughout the day and week, and let the dog sleep in it.
Your attitude towards the crate and the act of crating goes a long way in helping the dog to see it as a "safe haven". 
Otherwise, yes, the dog will see it as a punishment.

Our dogs used to hate being crated and would rather hang out outside. 
But I started giving them treats when they'd get in the crate and now they run find themselves a crate to go into!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> " Why do we assume that since she wasn't trained in protection that her response was out of fear? "
> 
> because we have Anthony repeatedly writing about situations where the dog was reactive , uncertain , from the time the dog was a youngster, and because many people have warned him to take measures *which will basically protect the dog from a bad situation* .


Something I've been very diligent about.

OTOH....

I don't consider THIS a bad situation. Does she look stressed to you? LOL

This is exactly what she was doing, before responding to whatever got her going.

Honestly, how can one anticipate what took place, from the image below?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

She looks like she needs a pillow!!!! How dare you make her sleep on a hard window sill!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> " Why do we assume that since she wasn't trained in protection that her response was out of fear? "
> 
> because we have Anthony repeatedly writing about situations where the dog was reactive , uncertain , from the time the dog was a youngster, and because many people have warned him to take measures which will basically protect the dog from a bad situation .


 
Anthony writes about scenarios that involves stuff that lots of dogs do, but its picked apart. I have not seen anything that he has posted that suggests that his dog is a fear aggressive dog that will flip like a switch. He has been picked at for everything, because he has questions. If I were him I wouldn't even ask anything on here, because now his dog is know to be unstable based on a few opinions. She is still one of my favorites and Anthony has been nothing but a good owner to her. She is not an evil crazy dog by a long shot.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> She looks like she needs a pillow!!!! How dare you make her sleep on a hard window sill!


Don't let her fool you 

She has one eye outside, looking for the cat...
And one ear listening for danger in the family room


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Hey, hey.... let's all get along.

I'd bet that 99.9% of every dog owner on this board, has had more than one incident that very much resembles 99.9% of everything I've written about.

I just enjoy putting it out there, and digesting whatever I can (and others) can learn from it.

You have NO IDEA how many _"PM thank you messages" _I get, for starting a topic others were afraid to admit.
It's all fine. 

It's not easy to take one's description, and give an accurate evaluation of one's dog.

I'm sure I've made my dog seem awfully bad at times, when in fact, I've protected her from BECOMING awfully bad by asking questions.

I see right through the hearts of all the good intentions meant by each and every one of you. I would never pass judgement, based on a response to such a sensitive subject.
We're all dog lovers, and crazy by nature. It's OK.


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## bryant88 (Jan 22, 2013)

msvette2u said:


> Then crate the dog at random times throughout the day and week, and let the dog sleep in it.
> Your attitude towards the crate and the act of crating goes a long way in helping the dog to see it as a "safe haven".
> Otherwise, yes, the dog will see it as a punishment.
> 
> ...


Your right.

This is not my GSD im talking about it was my Dads GSD when I lived at home with them. I learned my lesson with Sargent and knew I would not do that with Zeus. It was not the dogs fault it was ours and he felt like he was being punished when we had company. Zeus is fine and does not mind his crate at all. That is his safe place and he loves it. If we have company and there are little kids coming I put him in his crate before the company gets there so he does dont put two and two together and he is fine with it. Not that he is at all mean but hes just so big he knocks little ones down. I have seen first hand what crating them the wrong way can do to your dog thats why I was stressing on doing it the right way.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

this time i'm thinking Kira was protecting your daughter
but Kira has a history of charging people in your home
and your yard.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Why do we assume that since she wasn't trained in protection that her response was out of fear?
> _The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character._




But we are not assuming.

Look back through the posts. 

She has hidden, run away, been anxious, and demonstrated lack of confidence. 

Again and again. 

We are not saying she does this constantly, but she does it repeatedly, which makes it even harder to predict what she will do. 

Given all of the above, would you still say this is a dog who has "protection skills?"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Poor basket case Kira :shrug:


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I wouldn't call Kira anything even close to a basketcase. I do think she has _some_ nerve issues, but not nearly as bad as some--really. AND, I think she's still young, still maturing, was recently spayed....all of this can factor into this to some degree.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Poor basket case Kira :shrug:


I totally agree. I think Anthony needs to send her to my house. We're all basket cases here.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Lmao, Lilie.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1>>>> giving you points you're going lose that bet.

2>>>> thanking you for asking questions does does nothing
for training and being aware.



Anthony8858 said:


> Hey, hey.... let's all get along.
> 
> 1>>>> I'd bet that 99.9% of every dog owner on this board, has had more than one incident that very much resembles 99.9% of everything I've written about.
> 
> 2>>>> You have NO IDEA how many _"PM thank you messages" _I get, for starting a topic others were afraid to admit.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

Any time someone comes here to visit..Sib knows to go into her crate..After awhile I will ask company can I let her out..I will not put her in harms way..e.I. scaring or hurting ANYONE..and she has never charged lunged or gotten protective..IMO your dog should be in her crate when you have guests..This is not punishment..This is caution..


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Poor basket case Kira :shrug:


This isn't about labeling a dog a basket case. 

This is about seeing what you have, knowing what you have, and managing it appropriately. 

Anthony says he thinks 99% of us have had these problems, but I have not seen anything like what he describes done by Hans. 

I reply to these posts because I am sincerely afraid that one of these days she's going to bite someone and then we'll have a different question of Anthony's to answer -- and I do not wish for it to come to that.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lilie said:


> I totally agree. I think Anthony needs to send her to my house.


Not if she comes here 1st!!



Lilie said:


> We're all basket cases here.


So are we, she'd fit right in!










Aimee...that was kind of my point


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> This isn't about labeling a dog a basket case.
> 
> *This is about seeing what you have, knowing what you have, and managing it appropriately.
> 
> ...


Just has charged a couple people in the road, ran up and barked at them. She got corrected for that. But mostly her responses to people have been appropriate. I think if you have a fearful dog, you have to be on your game all the time. Just because this incident may have been appropriate behavior for the circumstances, and if we hadn't heard other stories about Kira we would be calling it appropriate for the breed, does not mean the next time will be the same. With Jax, it's dogs. I've seen her behave appropriately and the next time she's lunging and going off. 

On your game...all...the....time....

There is nothing wrong with anyone on here giving warnings of caution, and most certainly shouldn't be mocked for doing so, as we have read previous stories that were caused by bad nerves.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> On your game...all...the....time....
> 
> There is nothing wrong with anyone on here giving warnings of caution, and most certainly shouldn't be mocked for doing so, as we have read previous stories that were caused by bad nerves.


Here's where I'm coming from: I see owning a GSD as equivalent to owning a weapon. After all, they are used by the police and military.

In the right hands and used correctly, it serves you well and can protect you. If you let it go off recklessly or if you're not on your game, then it can become a serious liability, someone can get injured, and you would be in deep deep trouble.

Respect the power this dog possesses, and respect those teeth. That's all I'm trying to say. In the nicest, most respectful possible way.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Something I've been very diligent about.
> 
> OTOH....
> 
> ...


How? How many posts do you see about 'my dog bit my childs face.. my dog has always been fine with my kid but not okay with _____.'

It lies in the SAME boat. If a dog has ANY aggression this is a behaviour that is MANAGED not trained out. IMO you cannot ever train that out of a dog, whether it's dominance, a fear reaction or learned. Ultimately it's the dog getting what he/she wants. 

Dog thinks, I've reacted this way once, and this has happened. Therefor, when I do it again, I'll get what I want again.

Ever had a dog attacked by a small white dog? Dog A in this situation then has the ability to generalize and asses the situation when meeting another white dog, whether this dog is good 80% of the time and only acts out 20%. Yes, those are good odds but you're still dealing with a creature of instinct and unpredictability. 

My dog is fine with all types of people. All but my boyfriends brothers, if they come near me and I scream whether they mean harm or not. Infact, if I'm sleeping in another room and the boyfriends brother even tries to get up from where he's sitting my dog will react. I didn't know this happened until he told me. Would I ever predict my dog to do this? No. Have I since left her with them alone? No. 

And then we get into dogs guarding your children, this has the possibility to be a GOOD thing when there really is a threat. On the other hand, you'll hear people say "oh my dog is so good with our baby, he growls anytime somebody else besides us comes near the baby." 

Do you see anything wrong with this picture? YES. Because the dog is taking on a position it should not be and may be thinking this baby is mine, it belongs to me, or this baby is my prey. How can you be sure Kira wasn't thinking the same thing?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

anthony anthony anthony, you are a brave soul 

I don't know how many times I've read threads on this board about people writing "will my dog protect me" , and the majority of answers are YES even tho that majority of dogs have never been in the situation to test it. 

I would like others to think about this, you have a stranger in your house, one of your kids is getting agitated , voices are raised, stranger puts their hands on kid,,how many think their dog is going to sit there with a wagging tail? 

Kira may very well have her 'issues', but I see this situation, as Lauri and Mrs K threw it out there. 

Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it. 

If Kira had 'wanted to', she could have gone ahead and nailed the "stranger"..She stopped. How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Adding to my post here, OP should look into a trainer who can explain defence reactions vs. fear reactions. 

My pup tries to lunge at the end of her leash. She either self corrects, or I correct. This is NOT a fear reaction, just an obnoxious puppy. It's a lot better now, and throughout her life even if I don't see that response for 5 years it's always going to be in the back of my head to correct and try to teach this out of her. 

Remember the downfall to any punishment is that it almost always has to be re-administered one time or another. Nothing is forever.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't think Kira is fear aggressive, but may be a bit weak nerved. Anthony is very brave to weather the beatings he's recieved from folks who have never personally met his dog.  FWIW I do think most, if not all, dogs go through stages when they're young. This may or may not be something she grows out of, but I think Anthony is well aware that greater management is needed until then.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?


I don't know, and until I know I can trust him 100%, I am not putting Hans in a position for me to possibly find out.

This is the last thing I will say: 

The same thing (or variations of it) happens again and again, and it gets posted, and then a deluge of replies results, and then there is arguing between members, or snarky replies.

I do not understand the purpose of these posts, especially if people who are trying to help get mocked for it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?


Jax would have stopped. I watched her do the very same thing Kira did one day when DH's cousin came up the basement stairs (Jax had never met him before). He stopped moving when he saw her, she smelled him and then she crouched and gave a warning bark. Called her and she immediately came over to me and laid down.

I will stand by what I said on page 1....if this were any other dog, we would be praising her for her "appropriate" behavior towards a stranger in the house. 

Just because she's exhibited off behavior before does not mean this time was not appropriate.

And Diane's post was neither snarky or mocking...her opinion is different than the majority of the posts on here. She doesn't deserved to be snarked at anymore than the people that think it's due to bad nerves.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thank you michelle 

It wasn't meant to be snarky or mocking, it is my opinion as others have stated theirs on here as well


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I will stand by what I said on page 1....if this were any other dog, we would be praising her for her "appropriate" behavior towards a stranger in the house.
> 
> Just because she's exhibited off behavior before does not mean this time was not appropriate.
> 
> And Diane's post was neither snarky or mocking...her opinion is different than the majority of the posts on here. She doesn't deserved to be snarked at anymore than the people that think it's due to bad nerves.


This.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> thank you michelle
> 
> It wasn't meant to be snarky or mocking, it is my opinion as others have stated theirs on here as well


If this is in reference to my post, I was not talking about you.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> It's getting to a point where I may have to crate Kira, whenever ANYONE is in my home. As great as she can be, she's apparently not too comfortable with people in my home. It's not the first time.


Ya think?  Only because we've been saying this exact thing over and over for months? 



Sunflowers said:


> Time and time again she has done things like this and you're always surprised.


Yeah, I don't understand why it isn't sinking in. Anthony, I assume you're a smart guy, so we must not be explaining things very well, why your dog does the things she does.



Anthony8858 said:


> Good in a sense that she protects her home, but bad that she protects it when I'm there, and without a clue or reason.


As the others mentioned, Kira had a reason to suspect something, in her mind. Dogs sense emotions; a stranger to the dog was moving toward your daughter, and your daughter was agitated. That's going to arouse suspicion in any GSD. Those are the kinds of things you have to be aware of when you own this breed. Perhaps as Kira gets older, she will learn a bit more discrimination and these kinds of family dramas won't bother her so much. But right now, when you have visitors in the home, you must always be thinking, "what would Kira think about this?" Say if your buddy slapped you on the back, or one of your daughter's friends playfully pushed her, that kind of thing. Dogs are not always going to understand that this is play between humans.



JakodaCD OA said:


> Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it.


Yep.

Anthony, you aren't a bad dog owner. I think the most respectful thing you can do for Kira is to remove her from situations where she is not comfortable, because as uncomfortable as she is, Kira still feels as though she has to be in control of the situation. That's pretty common in GSDs. 

Kira acts like she's cool with guests, and acts calm and relaxed, because it's what you expect from her. But don't think that means she isn't being vigilant. As you saw, she reacted from the other room in an instant, and that was from a situation she didn't even see. So she is certainly feeling some amount of hypervigilance and stress just having strangers in her house... and she will feel the need to take control if something arouses her suspicion. Remember, GSDs are supposed to have suspicion. Don't put her in a situation where she may interpret a threat where none exists--she's not a human, so can't necessarily tell the difference.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

My first GSD, Bear, would do this exact same thing, particularly before he was about 5-6 years old. We used to tell him "it's okay" or "okay." Those became his "stand down" words and as soon as someone in my family said them, he relaxed. Been a long time and I don't even remember how we trained him to do that, but we did. I don't see this behavior as unusual, but it sounds like you want to work with Kira to help her differentiate when things are "okay."


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think in this incident the dog was being protective but a problem i see in the future would be if the children were play fighting with there friends, then would the dog know they were playing or being serious.

It comes down to how confident are the owners that the dog is safe around children. 

Also if the op wasn't present would the dog have been handled properly by the other adults in the house?

I would say crate the dog when visitors are over or the owner is not present to avoid any complications with children. It's just not worth having an accident.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Without a clue, Kira bolted off her ottoman, came barking and charging. At first I thought she had seen her cat friend, but quickly realized that she went to neutralize the woman. She didn't nip, jump or bite. She charged, and stopped at the woman. I intervened, and removed her.


Since your showing us your panty drawer...When Kira stopped at the woman, was she vocalizing? Did your wife/daughter correct her (vocally) when she came charging in? How was Kira when you removed her? Did you have to drag her off growling and snapping, slinging slobber everywhere? 

Did you crate her until the woman left?


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

All she did was charge. I don't see the problem ? 
Honestly
She is probably picking up on your anxieties.
Charging is not a problem, she didn't rip into someone and send them to the hospital.
Plus it was in her home, if she did it on the street I would be concerned, but that wasn't the case.

If someone does something in my home that warrants charging / barking.. the person probably deserved it and need to respect their boundaries as a guest. 

Put it behind you and move on. Kira was acting on instinct, you're not going to change that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

bryant88 said:


> I tried making a game out of it but he was having non of that. He *never had to crate unless we had company *and got to the point he absolutely hated it. I'd say dogs handle it different it's just when they put two and two together is when they change. If you knew you was having company and crated her and she didn't see why I think its fine. But don't let her put two and two together. TRUST ME!!!


Why didn't you simply train your dog to the crate when NO ONE was coming over so that she would not associate the crate with people visiting?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Given all of the above, would you still say this is a dog who has "protection skills?"


The dog does not need to learn protection skills to be protective...she is a GSD. She is young and maturing. All of the past posts have been blown way out of proportion IMO. I would expect any of my dogs to react if my child was crying, then spoke in a different tone with a stranger in the house. This is Kira's family and she sensed something was wrong. That is all I'm saying.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sunflowers said:


> If this is in reference to my post, I was not talking about you.


I'm sure it was my comment and all I have to say is...WOW. I mean...as I said, this scenario plays itself out over and over, I'm positive, daily in homes across the nation and people don't hash it out like this.

I think A's gift of storytelling and relaying his dog's nuances to this board have the entire board, well, half of it anyway, thinking the dog is a complete and utter genetic mess.

My own (past) dog would have done the same - and without a child crying to instigate it! 
And I didn't care! Because I got a GSD for the purpose of protecting our home, well, making a show of it anyway, so I didn't come on here and be all, OMG my dog charged someone! 

I really think it's normal GSD behavior.
I think people need to be aware of this potential any time they own a GSD or other dog that the breed calls for protection/suspicion/etc. 
The dog wasn't insane, she was aware and suspicious. _Normal breed traits._ 

Removing the dog, erecting a gate, crating, etc. should take care of future issues, simple enough.



> The dog does not need to learn protection skills to be protective...she is a GSD.


Completely agree!!
I mean...what else was she supposed to do!? What would you folks who think she's a wreck would have had her do?


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I am not going to try and analyze her actions. I can't even figure out my own dog's! I will say that when I read this I didn't think much of it. She charged..she stopped. My brother had a GSD that would not have stopped! He would have had to drag it away snarling and growling. I was terrified of that dog. 
My dad had a dog that would growl if someone, including myself, came near my dad. If my dad said it was ok....the growling stopped. That dog saved my father's life more than once by doing just that....growling and showing some teeth. But he would always look to my dad for further instruction. He was never trained that way and was fine with people and dogs. Just very protective of my father.
OTOH my son has a pit bull that is human aggressive. He will charge and bite. Even with people he knows you need to be careful. If the atmosphere gets too charged or excited....he will bite. My son has learned to manage this. 
To me the big thing here was that she stopped.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Removing the dog, erecting a gate, crating, etc. should take care of future issues, simple enough.
> 
> 
> Completely agree!!
> I mean...what else was she supposed to do!? What would you folks who think she's a wreck would have had her do?


That's just it: everyone repeatedly says exactly what you just said, and the good advice on this board seems to not be heeded.

"Removing the dog, erecting a gate, crating, etc. should take care of future issues, simple enough."

Exactly!

No need to imply the board is saying the dog is a wreck, because that is not the issue.

But Anthony does need to set her up for success. 

That is all.


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## bryant88 (Jan 22, 2013)

Mainly because we lived in the country and he had free roam of the house and yard . He could come and go as he pleased in or out. So we never had to crate him. But when he started showing aggression to our company we didn't have a choice. Then he really hated company cuz he knew he had to go in the crate. I tried to make a game out of it after I knew he hated it but no luck. As I said it was our fault he put two and two together but I was a lesson to us. Now that I have my own GSD I knew I wouldn't make the same mistake with my dog. I just don't want someone to make the same mistake and crate them in the wrong manner like we did. So I'm sharing my story.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Easy enough. Put the dog up. Give her a special treat in her crate so that friends coming over are a good thing for her and be done with it.

My dog usually are put up unless it is "dog friends" .... and no issues, just do it out of habit.


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## deldridge72 (Oct 25, 2011)

I never put my shepherds at risk-if there's guests in the house the dogs are crated-should I need to let them out, my guests are instructed to sit and be still while the dogs are in motion and my dogs are perfectly mannered and obedient, but things can happen is a split second even in a controlled enviromant.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it.
> 
> If Kira had 'wanted to', she could have gone ahead and nailed the "stranger"..She stopped. How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?


I totally agree with this. I think it's very easy for people to jump on the "you're not dealing with your dog's fear aggression properly" bandwagon - especially when they themselves have what they would consider a solid nerved dog and have a tendency to have a go at those who are brave enough to ask questions on a forum like this.

But in reality dogs are dogs, as Jakoda says. None of us truly knows what would happen in every single set of circumstances, no matter how much you train. Training is obviously necessary so that you can hopefully get the predicted reaction you desire out of your dog. But predictability isn't always going to happen, no matter how much we often think it will because nothing in life isn't predictable and living creatures aren't perfect.

I don't know Anthony or Kira personally, but I think that Kira was simply being what she would consider protective. As others have said, she STOPPED. Kira was simply being protective in her home environment. End of.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Easy enough. Put the dog up. Give her a special treat in her crate so that friends coming over are a good thing for her and be done with it.
> 
> My dog usually are put up unless it is "dog friends" .... and no issues, just do it out of habit.


Yup....I don't know why more people don't get this concept.
It's like they feel the dog is missing out or not apart of the family.
Just put the dog away, give the dog a bone......everyone is happy.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Jax would have stopped. I watched her do the very same thing Kira did one day when DH's cousin came up the basement stairs (Jax had never met him before). He stopped moving when he saw her, she smelled him and then she crouched and gave a warning bark. Called her and she immediately came over to me and laid down.
> 
> I will stand by what I said on page 1....if this were any other dog, we would be praising her for her "appropriate" behavior towards a stranger in the house.
> 
> ...


I said that very same thing on page four and completely was ignored. I feel like I'm missing out on being snarked at. 

The first thing I took away from the whole story is that she stopped! She thought there was a threat, intervened and then stopped and THEN he removed the dog.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I said that very same thing on page four and completely was ignored. I feel like I'm missing out on being snarked at.
> 
> The first thing I took away from the whole story is that she stopped! She thought there was a threat, intervened and then stopped and THEN he removed the dog.


I didn't ignore you 

That's exactly how it played out.

I think someone asked me HOW I removed the dog, and whether or not Kira was in a heightened, drooling state...... NO, she was not agitated at all.
Charge, bark, stop, huff, and walked away.

I simply walked over to her (she was NOT agitated), lightly grabbed her collar, and told her to go inside.
She gave me a "sigh", turned away, and walked back onto her ottoman.
Never to be seen or heard of again.
If I had to describe her actions, it was as if she said "knock it off", and walked away.

The woman stayed for another half hour.
Kira was still loose, and as the woman was leaving, Kira walked over for a "goodbye sniff". The woman petted her, and left... in one piece 


Kira obviously has a sensitivity to higher excitement levels, and rough stuff in the house. As Carmen mentioned, this isn't the first time she's shown me this.

How do I handle this?..... Well.... That's why I start these threads.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

*So the advice has consistently been the same.*
*Why keep ignoring it? Just curious.*

It does not take much effort on the part of a dog to break the skin and it can be fast and you already have well documented (forum) warning signs. She is not a killer and seems a sweet dog overall, but why take the risk?

Friends dog bit me - a recent rescue - *no* warning (and I have gotten pretty good at reading dogs but it was a floppy eared dog and I was not really paying attention to it), I was not looking at the dog or relating to it in any way - it just charged and bit - but it broke skin and caused some nasty techniclor bruises. And it was quite painful for about a week. Why risk that with your friends?

*It was lightning fast*. Frontal bite and retreat --- I just verified rabies vaccine and let it go then kept it clean and treated with antibiotic creams, trusting they would figure out what to do but not everyone would be that easy on them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

when you know that the dog has an issue and you continue to ignore the reality and fail to put in safe guards - put it on record which may be used against you should something happen , and people are blase about it as being a common experience , expected of the GSD , you wonder why people are having trouble getting rental accommodation or insurance or are being charged high insurance rates to cover liability ? "
_Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it. 

If Kira had 'wanted to', she could have gone ahead and nailed the "stranger"..She stopped. How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?_
I totally agree with this. I think it's very easy for people to jump on the "you're not dealing with your dog's fear aggression properly" bandwagon - especially when they themselves have what they would consider a solid nerved dog and have a tendency to have a go at those who are brave enough to ask questions on a forum like this.

But in reality dogs are dogs, as Jakoda says. None of us truly knows what would happen in every single set of circumstances, no matter how much you train. Training is obviously necessary so that you can hopefully get the predicted reaction you desire out of your dog. But predictability isn't always going to happen, no matter how much we often think it will because nothing in life isn't predictable and living creatures aren't perfect.

I don't know Anthony or Kira personally, but I think that Kira was simply being what she would consider protective. As others have said, she STOPPED. Kira was simply being protective in her home environment. End of. 
__________________

good entertainment though to be set up with this 

"**** I KNOW I'LL GET BADLY FLAMED FOR THIS, BUT I'LL TAKE MY LUMPS AS THEY COME***

* And once again, it involved her not being comfortable with people in my home."


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> How do I handle this?..... Well.... That's why I start these threads.


Simple, baby gate her off in a different area or crate her when someone comes over she is unfamiliar with

I have an aussie who'd nail a male stranger (females are always welcome), without thinking about it. He is crated everytime a "male" that he is unfamiliar with comes in the house. 

My previous female was friendly with everyone, one occasion we were out after dark, I was using a pay phone (she was on leash with me), this woman came out of nowhere, marching right up to me saying "oooh I love gsd's , reached out and grabbed my arm, Sami went 'off' on her, didn't bite her because I saw 'something' coming, and jerked her back, she had NEVER done something like that before and never did anything since. But she would have nailed her if I hadn't jerked her backwards..The woman wasn't a threat, just rather stupid in her actions..But it only takes a "second" .

Masi is fine with ANYONE walking into my house, she alert barks, is rightthere, but 'come on in'..She's not going to be your best bud, but come on in She is a big time "watcher",,from just how she 'is', I could see her getting in the middle of something if some stranger were grabbing me, I was agitated etc..Don't know if she'd "bite", she's never been tested, but I do know she wouldn't back off and would be right in the middle of it..

Again, dogs are dogs, we can trust them 100%, or not. If one has a dog that they aren't sure about, that's the type of dog that needs to be monitored and dealt with accordingly based on the situation.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> when you know that the dog has an issue and you continue to ignore the reality and fail to put in safe guards - put it on record which may be used against you should something happen , and people are blase about it as being a common experience , expected of the GSD , you wonder why people are having trouble getting rental accommodation or insurance or are being charged high insurance rates to cover liability ? "
> _Dogs are dogs, people "think" they are supposed to know the difference from a perceived threat and a real one, most dogs DON'T. They hear/see/feel the emotions of their "family", and react to it.
> 
> If Kira had 'wanted to', she could have gone ahead and nailed the "stranger"..She stopped. How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?_
> ...


I do have a way with words, don't I? 

All is well, thank you for your input.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Many of us are amazed that not only do you own a dog, that by it's very breed, is designed to alert and/or protect you of intruders, but you insist on allowing this dog the full run of the house even during the most stressful times (parties) to any dog. 

And you keep having the same issues - your dog is being a dog - yet you still give her free reign. 
Someone's going to get hurt. Period.
And when someone's dog hurts someone, it often involves law enforcement, rabies quarantines and the like; even up to the dog's death.

So. Think long and hard about how you're going to _protect your dog. _



> If I had to describe her actions, it was as if she said "knock it off", and walked away.


That's the problem. Dog doesn't get the make the rules in the house.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> Anthony, this scenario plays itself out daily across our nation.
> You tend to read way too much into Kira's actions, and over-analyze everything but her farts, or maybe you do that too.
> But point is...she's a dog. She'll act like a dog.
> You can put your info out here to be shredded, along with your behind, or you can take your toys and go home, which is personally what I'd do at this point.
> ...


I'm with msvette here. I don't see anything wrong with this dog. Since I wasn't there I'm not going to nitpick her behavior or try to make assumptions about what exactly set her off, what her posture in the picture means, how long someone can be in the house before an incident happens, etc. Kira is a German Shepherd. Maybe she just doesn't like non-family members in her house especially when she can feel tension because of whatever incident happened with your daughter. I would not try to figure out *exactly* what sets her off or how long she can be free or where in the house she has to be in relation to guests. Just keep her away and she will probably feel better for it. She is young, right? I have a 4 year old dog that I kept apart from guests for almost 3 years. I never had any incidents but it didn't matter because most of my family and friends hate dogs, especially GSDs, so when they came over I crated him away from the action or put him outside. It's not fun for me to have guests over and have to tether a dog to me or have eyes on the back of my head. Now at 4 years old, the same dog lives completely crate free in the house and also is free when guests come and go and we've had no incident and no reason to believe my dog is a monster. You don't have to force these things or think that your dog is reactive or fearful or there's something wrong with her because she's a young dog that needs to be kept away from guests while she is maturing and learning her boundaries. And if she never accepts guests, well, I would not be all that surprised since we are talking about German Shepherds.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I think we should make a pool.

How long before Anthony starts another thread going something like this:

"Kira bit a guest in my home! I don't understand, it just came out of nowhere! She was lying quietly in the other room, when my guest raised his voice and made grand gestures toward me while describing a play during a football game, and Kira came charging into the room and grabbed the guy by the arm and drew blood! Why did she do this? She's been so good with people lately, showing NO signs of stress whatsoever! I totally did not see this coming! Now the guy wants to sue me! How could I have prevented this?"



Sorry, Anthony, to have a poke at your expense, but I really do fear this scenario if you don't take things more seriously.

Not saying Kira is a bad dog, or a vicious dog, but she is a GSD, not a Maltese.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony said "I do have a way with words, don't I? 

All is well, thank you for your input."


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> I
> Kira obviously has a sensitivity to higher excitement levels, and rough stuff in the house.
> How do I handle this?..... Well.... That's why I start these threads.


When you can't predict what your guests will do, (jump up quick, yell, whatever...) and you know your dog is sensitive to excitement AND unpredictable, it seems like the simple solution would be to remove Kira from the area before she has a chance to tell someone to "knock it off" with her teeth.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

What I'd be concerned about is that Kira seems to be taking on the job as 'referee' in your home. The more opportunity she's given to do her 'job' the more often these situations are likely to occur.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> What I'd be concerned about is that Kira seems to be taking on the job as 'referee' in your home. The more opportunity she's given to do her 'job' the more often these situations are likely to occur.


"Referee". 
Is this something you've seen?
Is it common, or unique to my situation? 


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Personally I think it is something common in herding/guarding/bossy breeds. I have a houseful of dogs who would like to referee everything. I have to try to help them find appropriate things to do with that instinct, and re-shape things that I am not so excited about them bossy-pantsing me/other dogs/cats/people about.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Referee = Fun Police

Jax is the Fun Police. She will tell on any animal that is doing something she deems unacceptable and herd them away from from people. My inlaws Dobe, George, was the fun police. If the boys were play wrestling, he would quickly put an end to it. Nicest dog I ever met...just don't act like you are fighting in any way or he might bite you.

You have a dog that has shown previously she is uncomfortable with people in the house. A dog with a possible aptitude to be protective under the right circumstances as any good GSD should. Now you need to determine if she can accurately determine a threat or if she could possibly harm a friendly visitor because she misread intentions.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Jax sounds just like Stosh- he definitely takes the referee attitude. Since he's such a large dog with an even bigger presence, I've made it a habit of crating him when guests that he doesn't know well are over. Like others have said, it's just not worth the risk.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

So this type of behavior could be typical?

Obviously something I need to be aware of. 
Crating her when guests are over, is not a problem.
Makes sense.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx is also the 'fun police' she won't let anyone have fun if she's in the realm. Karlo and Kacie play so well when Onyx isn't butting in trying to stop it! 
I crate my dogs when guests come over for the most part, depends though on who it is. Some people give of timid vibes and that is not the type I want my dogs around...they'll take advantage!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

YES, not surprising at all with a young German Shepherd dog.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Hey Anthony, figured I'd chime in. I'm going through some similar issues with Zoey now but when Princess (my last gsd) was Kira's age, she went through the same thing and even BIT 4-5 people. As she matured and with some training, she became the most wonderful and sociable dog I could ever ask for. I guess I don't have any real advice other then to keep socializing and putting her in situations where she can learn right from wrong. We would have parties with 40-50 people there, most strangers that were friends of friends, and Princess would just walk around and never had an issue and everyone loved her. There is light at the end of the tunnel and I see Kira excelling, I wish the same for my Zoey.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nickyb said " I'm going through some similar issues with Zoey now but when Princess (my last gsd) was Kira's age, she went through the same thing and even BIT 4-5 people. " 

Please don't repeat the experience that you had with your Princess . She bit 4 or 5 people ! You are lucky that she lived to achieve maturity !!! 
This time with Zoey - do this first "with some training, she became the most wonderful and sociable dog I could ever ask for." Train . Understand the true nature of your dog and provide an environment where the dog can be at its best . 

" keep socializing and putting her in situations where she can learn right from wrong. "

except that the dog does not have a moral compass , there is no right or wrong -- there are thresholds for tolerance though . Don't set the dog up to fail .

" I see Kira excelling, I wish the same for my Zoey. "

Kira will be what Kira is . Recognizing this is the secret to success . There is no wishing , but there is reality , recognizing potential and limitations , and making it work out . Allow for the best to emerge within that range and it can be a beautiful thing.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> but when Princess (my last gsd) was Kira's age, she went through the same thing and even BIT 4-5 people.


I freaked out over an accident, when a friend picked up a stick and my girl went after the stick and caught his pinky and she had to go in quarantine. Ever since then I make sure that I won't let anyone play with my dogs, nor do I set them up into a situation where they could bite someone and I go as far as putting a Nylon Muzzle on my Malinois because she IS a Maligator and her mouthing could be interpreted as biting by inexperienced people. Heck, the reason I got kicked off the Farmersmarket was because one of the Ladies thought that Nala was biting my hand because she nibbled on a treat in my hand. 

Four to five people? That is a lot of people...

Accidents happen. I can see one, maybe two throughout the lifetime of a dog. But 4-5? That's negligence. Pure and simple.

Now the question is...what do you understand as biting?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Yes I think herding dogs have a bossy side to their personality on certain situations

Delgado was at the dog park with my sister and she was talking to another lady there who had a black pug. The pug was jumping over and over again at Elise who was ignoring it. Delgado walked up and grabbed the dog by the scruff and moved it a few feet away, no growling from Delgado and no yelping from the pug. The jumped again and Delgado intervened again. Over and over it went

I wasn't there and personally I would have intervened but my sister and the other owner thought it was hilarious. Needless to say we had a bit of a talk afterwards


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree with a little bit of what everyone's been saying. Now, I haven't actually read Anthony's other threads, with the exception of one I skimmed a few months ago, so I don't know Kira's history or much about her temperament at all. But here are my thoughts after reading this thread:

Anthony, you seem to expect more out of Kira than you should, especially at this point in her life and training. From your posts, it sounds like you have certain definitions of how a dog should react to certain stimuli and situations, and when Kira acts otherwise, you overanalyze and scramble to find an explanation and a "solution". Sure, sometimes you set your dog up for failure (happens to the best of us), but I think you wind up doing it more to yourself! In your recollection and your following responses/posts, you sound stunned, perplexed, resigned, disappointed, and a myriad of other emotions. Take a breath. You are making it too easy for yourself and others to blow it out of proportion. Stop scrambling to dissect your dog and start grabbing hold of situations like this.

There isn't always a solution, at least not the one you're looking for. Sometimes it's about proper management, whether it is because it's not something you can "fix", or because there's absolutely _nothing _that _needs_ to be fixed. Don't expect anything of Kira right now, she's a young dog still growing in a brain. Just remove her from any situations that may trigger an undesirable response. 

And for the record, I've had my dog tethered to me for two hours to three hours when guests were over. In between chores we practiced heeling, keeping focus, impulse control, and mind games. 



Verivus said:


> I don't think Kira is fear aggressive, but may be a bit weak nerved. Anthony is very brave to weather the beatings he's recieved from folks who have never personally met his dog.  FWIW I do think most, if not all, dogs go through stages when they're young. This may or may not be something she grows out of, but I think Anthony is well aware that greater management is needed until then.


I agree with everything said in this post.



jocoyn said:


> Easy enough. Put the dog up. Give her a special treat in her crate so that friends coming over are a good thing for her and be done with it.
> 
> My dog usually are put up unless it is "dog friends" .... and no issues, just do it out of habit.


This is me as well. People coming over? When he was young we would give him a raw knuckle bone or a bully stick and keep him in a room upstairs. Now the moment he sees who it is at the door, he will run up the stairs automatically, no cue needed (depending on who the guest is - he recognizes a few people who are okay with him). 

With them, all he wants to do is squeeze into the couch with them and smother them with kisses. Couch time is snuggle time in his book, and he loves taking advantage of his favorite visitors. But out of habit and respect for the people in my house, I keep my dog out of the area. It is no inconvenience to me, and hardly any effort, and my dog is fine being out of sight. There is no reason for him to be hanging around, although we have quite a few friends who request it! 



JakodaCD OA said:


> How many of 'our' (general our), dogs would have stopped Or would have continued on and bitten?





Rua said:


> I think it's very easy for people to jump on the "you're not dealing with your dog's fear aggression properly" bandwagon - especially when they themselves have what they would consider a solid nerved dog and have a tendency to have a go at those who are brave enough to ask questions on a forum like this.


Mine would stop. My dog _is _a dog with the potential to be "protective", the defensive drives are prevalent, and I would not put it past him to show aggression towards a perceived thread. 

But I'm very sympathetic towards Anthony's situation. My dog's charged more people than I can count. He's rushed at my younger sister with hackles up, snarling and barking in a low rumble. He's shown my mother hard eyes and put himself in between me and her to bark in a very low and serious display. He has given a serious warning bark and growl to a few teens running at me in the middle of the night. But given both context _and_ the fact that _I know my dog_, I found his reactions acceptable. 

Why? He charges people who walk through the door unannounced. And promptly parks himself in front of them and stops. They try to move past him? He'll most likely just give a cursory sniff and bounce around saying "hello". He rushed at my younger sister twice in his adolescence, when he was all instinct and reflex and drive and absolutely no brain - the only two times I was truly upset. She threw the door open to a pitch black room, not knowing my dog was/we were there (first incident was just the dog in the room, second incident was both of us). 

Next scenario - he stood between me and my mother because he perceived a threat when she shoved a large metal object at me and I backed away screaming. In reality, she was giving me a thermos to pack (I was in the process of moving), and I screamed because I was 90% sure there was year old caffeine lingering at the bottom and it grossed me out. But hey, my dog didn't know that. Last few incidents are self explanatory - it was late at night, we were in an area with no street lamps. A couple of teens/acquaintances thought it'd be fun to spook me. Dog responded appropriately. I know his thresholds and what is a warning, to what degree the warning is, and what triggers him. 

He is not a fearful dog - he turns off quickly and calmly at my reassurance and is more than content to leave it to me. In fact, he understands that any perceived threat is not his to face. A warning is sufficient, and then it is mine to handle. Someone could kick me in the face or shove me off a cliff and he'd dance around in circles, tail wagging. Raise a stick over my head? Time to play catch! Tackle me to the ground? He loves rough housing! But he is almost four years old now...he sure went through a fear stage in his adolescence. At Kira's age, he may have reacted in the exact same way to a petulant, upset teen (...hey, that sounds like me! :wild and a stranger reaching out. 

Kira may have some nerve issues, or she may be going through a phase. As I've said, I haven't really read your other threads so I don't know the whole story. Outside the context of Kira's past issues, I wouldn't call her behavior surprising or inappropriate given her calm state immediately afterwards and the fact that she stopped herself. My own dog never did have any problems with strangers (he was people crazy, he loved them all too much) but the two times he ran at my sister was worse than anything Kira seems to have done. _And he is my first dog_! Nevermind my first German Shepherd...

Difference in my case was that the second time (first time I figured it was a fluke and foolishly ignored it), I recognized myself as the problem and left it at that. My dog was surprised, reacted, and his crazy little instincts kicked in before his brain could. It was dangerous and my fault - I should not have been lazy and left the lights off + door closed with him in the room. My dog did what he did and it was unnecessary to diagnose his problem when all I had to do was prevent it. I knew what triggered him and I knew how to avoid it, and that was all I needed.

In addition to prevention, we worked on management and encouraging behaviors through a sort of self rewarding negative reinforcement: he offers a desired behavior (quiet focus, a sit, etc.) and the negative stimulus that was bothering him (perceived threat/trigger) is removed (by no longer being presented as a threat). 



Anthony8858 said:


> "Referee".
> Is this something you've seen?
> Is it common, or unique to my situation?


As everyone's already said, German Shepherds are fairly notorious play police. Big time party poopers and professional killjoys. My dog makes it his job to moderate other dogs and also to let me know when he thinks I've given another dog enough attention. He is still learning the "everything is my call so back off, please" rule. We end up practicing a lot of "down, stay"s around here.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> "Referee".
> Is this something you've seen?
> Is it common, or unique to my situation?


It is something I've seen, and as others have already posted, not uncommon. What's unique to your situation (and I've made the same mistake - I'm not being critical) is that Kira's actions have gone uncorrected. Therefore, she thinks she's doing what she's supposed to do. I'm just going from memory here, so maybe I'm off base, but I'm thinking about the incidents with: your daughter's friend, your play wrestling session, the party guests, and now this. You two are a team, and she's taking her cues from you to shape her behavior. Obviously I don't know "why" she's doing this, but it makes sense to me that she probably thinks she "ought" to do it, because every time these situations come up there's no clearly defined '_this is unacceptable' _coming from you. Instead of seeing her as nervy or reactive or whatever, I'm seeing her as being trained to intervene.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I think most of you have the wrong impression of ME. I don't post to flame or troll. I don't over-analyze or look to stir things up.
If I see unrecognized behavior, I ask if others have experienced the same. From the replies of this thread, it seems as if her behavior was not unlike what many others have experienced. 
NOW,... how I handle this, is the learning experience. Kira has shown in the past, that she tends to be uncomfortable around raucous guests. I knew this, and have been watching her, and trying to desensitize her. She hasn't acted out in quite some time, and led me to believe that she may have just gone through something, and had gotten past it.

Does that mean I set my dog up to fail? I don't see it that way. I read all the "I told you so's", and "haven't you learned yet" responses, and wonder if you think I sit here and do nothing. I do keep an eye on my dog. Her behavior has been fine. I go with what I see. She's now shown me that it's not as fine as I thought. So now I go from here.

This reply from REI:



> _As everyone's already said, German Shepherds are fairly notorious play police. Big time party poopers and professional killjoys. My dog makes it his job to moderate other dogs and also to let me know when he thinks I've given another dog enough attention. He is still learning the "everything is my call so back off, please" rule. We end up practicing a lot of "down, stay"s around here._
> 
> 
> > IMO, this could have been the only reply. It's obvious that I didn't know about this behavior, and I do now.
> ...


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

First, thank you for asking the question. Second, what is the answer? Fiona as of late has taken to barking at random people. A person at work claimed she lunged at her. I was holding the leash and there was a barrier between Fiona and the lady she barked at. I don't think Fiona lunged, but I understand she has a fear of dogs so it might seem that way. 
So how do I fix this? She wears a prong collar and I gave her a correction when she barked. She stopped for a minute, then started again. 


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Cheyanna said:


> First, thank you for asking the question. Second, what is the answer? Fiona as of late has taken to barking at random people. A person at work claimed she lunged at her. I was holding the leash and there was a barrier between Fiona and the lady she barked at. I don't think Fiona lunged, but I understand she has a fear of dogs so it might seem that way.
> So how do I fix this? She wears a prong collar and I gave her a correction when she barked. She stopped for a minute, then started again.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If you're working her then she won't have the time to react / bark.
There are usually signs leading up to barking at someone-- they usually stare and lean towards the person they're barking at.
As soon as you see these signals, make her busy. Sit, down, touch, heel, shake.. Something I like doing is pretending to drop my wallet or keys and having the dog pick them up and give them to me.

Right now she has formed a habit of barking at people because.. ?? ( fear, cautious, excited, suspicious, .. )
This habit is reinforced each time she gets to bark or react. But if you distract her before she can follow through then you are forming a new habit.
So it goes from:
See person --> Bark

to:
See person --> look at owner 
she will be waiting for your command because each time this stimulus (person) presented itself you asked for her attention (sit, down, etc)


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i don't know if anyone mentioned this but you can always leash her when people are at your home, then you have more control over her and can catch this behavior and correct right away. it does sound like she has made a habit out of doing this, and dog do repeat what they think works. it might just take simple corrections and over time she may learn that you are in charge, not her.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

I think Kira acted appropriately to the situation as she perceived it.
She is a dog.
It is our job, as owners, to know our dogs and anticipate (be prepared for) situations that will cause an unwanted action/reaction.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

anthony I still think your a brave soul


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> anthony I still think your a brave soul


:thumbup:


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Anthony, I don't think you're a 'bad owner'. Nor do I think Kira is a 'bad' dog. Howver, without diligent management & oversight these incidents couold escalate to a truly bad outcome someday. PLEASE don't let that happen. You will have failed Kira big time if you do. 

Years ago I had a Sibe that broke house training after another dog joined the household. Cochise was a tricky cuss & I finally in desperation began tethering him to me any time he wasn't confined. I thought he'd hate it b/c he was extremely active & liked almost constant movement. Surprisingly, he thrived on the additional 'attention' & I think decided that it elevated his status that I needed/wanted him with me at all times! Please, consider tethering her. You might find it much less bother than you expect it to be.

At this point, actively discourage protective tendencies/behavior. These qualities are not an asset in an easily stressed & anxious dog. I doubt she'll ever be a good candidate for even informal family protection. Despite that she can be a loving & enjoyable companion if you will help her to be the best that she can be.

Her behavior was (IMO) completely inappropriate & demonstrated a disturbing lack of judgment & discernment. The average dog understands emotional nuance & vibes much better than humans usually. Dogs who are well suited to protecting their people don't react to adolescent/teen annoyance, snarkiness or mild discomfort. They can distinguish b/w arguments, even loud, angry arguments & real threats. They're unfazed by childish squabbles. 

The woman was a welcome guest in your home who'd been there at least 2 hrs before Kira went off. In all that you've described, I simply don't see a good reason for Kira to believe your daughter was threatened or in danger. Protective dogs, especially large, powerful dogs, simply MUST be clear headed & capable of impeccable judgment.

Becoming a bit watchful would have been appropriate. Going off on a welcome guest was not. Yeah, she stopped herself, but the fact is that she stopped behavior that should never have even begun in this particular situation. Frankly, that's not good enough.

Please don't take what I've posted as 'flaming you'. You can & should work diligently to protect this lovely girl that you obviously care a great deal about. Unfortunately, there seems to be a serious disconnect b/w your words & your actions. Kira NEEDS you to act in her behalf & see that she is protected from herself.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I had a bitch that was truly aggressive (not fearful, though) and a male that was everyone's best friend. My male would have done the same thing. Sorry, but I don't think it was inappropriate. Had her history NOT been on here, I feel the reaction to it would have been way different. You didn't have to say anything for her to stop, and there was a totally explainable reason for her to do this. This is a GSD. This is behavior I'd see as 'normal' in them.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Appropriate aggression & protective behaviors s/b applauded in a GSD. Regardless of Kira's history, (which is essentially unknown to me), I don't think her behavior falls within the realm of what s/b expected or tolerated. She stopped for unknown reasons. Equally unknown, & potentially more disturbing, is whether she'd stop in the future. IMO, a clear headed dog of solid judgment & discerning character would not have perceived a threat in the scenario Anthony described.

I suspect that Anthony is unwittingly encouraging her behavior rather than providing this girl with the clear leadership she _needs_ to build confidence & assume her proper role in the family. Given her lack of confidence, her reactivity & how easily she stresses, I doubt that role is family protector. Nor is it likely that 'protection' will ever be a good fit for this girl. That does not make her a whit less loveable.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> So this type of behavior could be typical?
> 
> Obviously something I need to be aware of.
> Crating her when guests are over, is not a problem.
> Makes sense.


It could be typical if she's not trained to do something different; its in their DNA to guard and protect. She really needs a reassurance stand-down command when she has made a decision that is not one you want her to make, or she's just learning by trial and error. There's no good place to go with it unless you work with her on this. And you're going to have to work on it often and consistently until it's second nature to her. Like daily. 

I even have my fear aggressive shep now checking with me sometimes for the answer. Instead of barking insanely and slobbering all over the windows when someone is in the yard or pulls up, she now barks like a normal dog and comes to get me and herds me to the window to show me what she's barking at. If I can get a FA dog to do this, I think you can work on one that is guarding/protecting and needs some guidance. If you can't, get someone who can train you to train her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so true Ruby Tuesday


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, I would join a Schutzhund Club and learn how to control her aggression and drives. It will be good for her and for you. And please don't say that a dog like her shouldn't do it. I believe a dog like her SHOULD do it and that she'd be under much better control that way.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I totally disagree Mrs K. The dog has fear . The BH would weed out unstable dogs and prevent them from going forward into bitework. When you join a SchH club "here" you are required to get your own insurance and sign a waiver releasing the club, the trainer , from any liability. I do not know what the situation is in Germany . This dog is already easily stimulated into a fear (aggressive) response , with people acting normally. The last thing you want to do is the make her more wary , raise suspicion and get rewarded for punching back . She will only be "under much better control" with Anthony's management . The dog can not self control her fear .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> I totally disagree Mrs K. The dog has fear . The BH would weed out unstable dogs and prevent them from going forward into bitework. When you join a SchH club "here" you are required to get your own insurance and sign a waiver releasing the club, the trainer , from any liability. I do not know what the situation is in Germany . This dog is already easily stimulated into a fear (aggressive) response , with people acting normally. The last thing you want to do is the make her more wary , raise suspicion and get rewarded for punching back . She will only be "under much better control" with Anthony's management . The dog can not self control her fear .



NO! That is NOT what I am saying! Training Schutzhund and titling a dog are two different things. Schutzhund, back in Germany, is also used to help dogs. 

It has nothing to do with making the dog more weary or suspicious but everything to do with raising confidence and giving the handler the type of control he needs, over his dogs. There are many many many success stories about fearful dogs being worked in Schutzhund. 

Again. Do not think about titles. You guys are so caught up in titling and weeding out weak dogs and this whole blah blah talk that you don't seem to see that the training itself can be very beneficial. Just Obedience and Tracking alone, will give him the tool he needs to control her, locking her away for the rest of her life, doesn't help her either and the people at a Schutzhund Club understand aggression and the type of behavior much better than some pet dog trainer. 
There is a trainer who uses Schutzhund specifically to rehabilitate dogs and it works!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Please, let's not argue over this anymore.

I admit, I made mistakes, but what I've gained from posting on this forum far outweighs what I would've done on my own. Only god knows what I'd be dealing with, without sharing some of the issues I've encountered.

I won't post anymore. I do think it's a good idea.
We'll be fine.

I'll seek out some professional help for her.

As far as the video and setting up to fail.... well, i believe in this case, a verbal description would only have gone so far. I needed to let this play out, as it would have.

This is formally my last post.

Thank you.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Please, let's not argue over this anymore.
> 
> I admit, I made mistakes, but what I've gained from posting on this forum far outweighs what I would've done on my own. Only god knows what I'd be dealing with, without sharing some of the issues I've encountered.
> 
> ...


Anthony, please let us know how it goes with some real help. 

At this point, I do think it is necessary to get real help. Seek out a club and aks for referrals of good behaviorists. Some of these trainers are better behaviorists without holding one of those certificates the public wants to see. So get in touch with a Club. Get in touch with some people on this very forum who live in your area or within a two hour radius. 

Driving the distance, sometimes IS WORTH IT! 

Don't re-home her just yet. Get yourself, your family and the dog help. The forum is nice, but HANDS ON HELP is what you guys need. It *CANNOT *replace a trainer!


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Good Morning. I don't know your family dynamics, but if you do find a good trainer please have them include your whole family in training, see if your kids can be more involved with Kira. The training center I go to allows more than one handler with the dog. One of the newest trainers is only 21 yrs old, he started training with his 1st shepherd at 9. This might give everyone in your family more confidence and make Kira less fearful around your children's friends.

The impression I have from your posts is that it is mostly you doing things with Kira. Does Kira get to ride in the car with your kids and their friends? Do you go on hikes as a family? Maybe something is missing here.

You should try going to meetup.com and look GSD groups in NY or NJ. I'm sure one of the members can guide you to a good resource for training. The meetup group that is closest to me has their own trainer. Best wishes.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Didn't even come back to this thread until now, hate to see you go Anthony. I commend you for bringing out your issues with Kira here, but with a forum full of professionals, this is the normal reaction that tends to push people away. Hope to hear from you soon.

PS. My Princess never full on BIT anyone, 4-5 nips would be more like it. Example, Oil guy came in the backyard without telling anyone and Princess wasn't having it, nipped him in the butt. #2 A couple was walking in my back yard cutting through, Princess ran up on them and nipped one until I could call her off and a few others. The exact reason why this forum pushes people away is because most pick apart every single word and sentence one writes. I never asked for advice regarding my dog in this thread yet I got some. This is the reason why I mainly stay in the pictures subforum.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony, I hope that even if you are no longer posting, you are still reading.

I don't think you need to leave the forum, as some have suggested. But IMO, it's time you should be talking to a trainer or behaviorist, rather than an internet forum; I think this is what was meant when people said to "stop posting". You have pretty much gone as far as you can go getting advice from internet strangers who can not be there to see your dog. Internet strangers who, I might add, have varying degrees of knowledge, experience and expertise with dogs.

I do hope you continue to read and post, AND get professional help for Kira.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Anthony, I hope that even if you are no longer posting, you are still reading.
> 
> I don't think you need to leave the forum, as some have suggested. But IMO, it's time you should be talking to a trainer or behaviorist, rather than an internet forum; I think this is what was meant when people said to "stop posting". You have pretty much gone as far as you can go getting advice from internet strangers who can not be there to see your dog. Internet strangers who, I might add, have varying degrees of knowledge, experience and expertise with dogs.
> 
> I do hope you continue to read and post, AND get professional help for Kira.


Freestep,

I've updated the other thread,and totally agree. You, as well as others have done all they can to offer wonderful advice.
I've reached the threshold, where hands on would benefit more than advice.

Thank you very much. I honestly do appreciate all the advice you've given the past year or so.


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