# Training a pup to engage



## RSharpe75 (Oct 12, 2018)

Hi,

So my puppy Kaos is 5.5 months old now and for the most part, he's a growing bundle of joy. I've had German Shepherds in the past but Kaos is my first working line pup and I'm finding that getting him engaged is a tad difficult.

During training (indoors) he is fine with engagement .... as long as there's something in it for him. He's very food motivated. However, it just doesn't seem like this pup is that interested in me. Even when playing - I have him on a 6ft leash, I drop his tug or ball, he goes for it and then promptly lies down to chew on it; even if I reel him into me.

Outdoors, you can forget about any kind of engagement and even food or toys don't bring him around. He's more interested in the grass or flying bugs, or anything really that isn't me.

How do I build engagement? How do I go about making my pup want what I have and to be the most interesting thing in his sphere? Are there books or online courses that deal with this?

He's currently teething and losing his puppy teeth so playing tug isn't as fun for him any more.

(Wish images wouldn't flip on their sides like they do haha)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What games do you play with food? do you teach him to push into your hand to get food? Do you throw food to let him chase? do you hold the food in your hand and let him chase your hand to get it? (Not bite, just chase). All of these things will help you when you are outside.

as far as the ball inside, sounds like he's just more independent and he doesn't know that he needs to come back to you. Really...he has the object, why come back? It's his. He owns it.  Working line generally have a higher possession and aren't just going to come back to you. 

Have you tried playing 2 balls? Tease him with one ball then throw it a short distance. when he has it, tell him to come and start reeling him in. He MUST come with a distance that you can touch the string of the ball in his mouth. when he does, pull out the second ball and wait for him to drop the first then throw the second. It won't be long before he's coming back to you.

Outdoors is sooooo much more interesting. You have to remember that whatever you teach him inside has be be started at step one when you take him somewhere else. Dogs don't generalize.

Look up Dave Kroyer. I haven't signed up for his site but it's only $10/mth to access all of his videos.

Denise Fenzi has courses online.

And where are you located at? You might be better finding a local trainer than looking online.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

He's cute and handsome. Looks a lot like mine last year. He's my first working line too.

So if he's not interested in the toys, you have to make him interested. Don't just throw the ball or drop the tug on the ground and expect him to get excited about it. Tease him with it. Wriggle it in front of him. If you have another person, throw it to him/her and "throw a big party" after you catch it. Make excited sounds. Maybe if he shows interest then you give him treats. Do you have a flirt pole? Try that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Try contacting some of these clubs

https://www.gsdleague-workingbranch.com/contacts/clubs/


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## RSharpe75 (Oct 12, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> What games do you play with food? do you teach him to push into your hand to get food? Do you throw food to let him chase? do you hold the food in your hand and let him chase your hand to get it? (Not bite, just chase). All of these things will help you when you are outside.
> 
> as far as the ball inside, sounds like he's just more independent and he doesn't know that he needs to come back to you. Really...he has the object, why come back? It's his. He owns it.  Working line generally have a higher possession and aren't just going to come back to you.
> 
> ...


Hi Jax, I'm in Edinburgh, Scotland. We have a single IGP club that is about 45 minutes away. Unfortunately, I am unable to attend this club at the moment but will look into applying again next year. Currently I am working through an online course by Tobias Oleynik. I am also waiting for Denise's engagement through play class to start up at the beginning of August.

I do in fact teach him to push into my hand for the food and he does this brilliantly. I have also tried to make him chase my hand for food and when I do this, he constantly just takes my arm in his mouth. My arm, not my hand. And just to be clear, he isn't biting down on my arm, he's simply holding it in his mouth.

I have also tried the two balls game and when I'm reeling him in, he'll stash the ball he had where he was chewing it and come to me very reluctantly. He'll happily take the second ball though and then run back to where the first ball is stashed.

I desperately want to bond with my boy and get a more engagement and focus from him. 



tc68 said:


> He's cute and handsome. Looks a lot like mine last year. He's my first working line too.
> 
> So if he's not interested in the toys, you have to make him interested. Don't just throw the ball or drop the tug on the ground and expect him to get excited about it. Tease him with it. Wriggle it in front of him. If you have another person, throw it to him/her and "throw a big party" after you catch it. Make excited sounds. Maybe if he shows interest then you give him treats. Do you have a flirt pole? Try that.


Hi tc68, it's not that he's not interested in the toys; it's more that he wants the toys all to himself. I do tease him with it, I do run about with it, I do act stupid with it. He will jump about for the toy and once he gets it, it's astalavista baby! Oh and his favourite thing to do is chase a flirt pole. He just absolutely love the flirt pole above any other of his toys.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RSharpe75 said:


> Hi Jax, I'm in Edinburgh, Scotland. We have a single IGP club that is about 45 minutes away. Unfortunately, I am unable to attend this club at the moment but will look into applying again next year. Currently I am working through an online course by Tobias Oleynik. I am also waiting for Denise's engagement through play class to start up at the beginning of August.
> 
> I do in fact teach him to push into my hand for the food and he does this brilliantly. I have also tried to make him chase my hand for food and when I do this, he constantly just takes my arm in his mouth. My arm, not my hand. And just to be clear, he isn't biting down on my arm, he's simply holding it in his mouth.
> 
> ...


He's still a baby. Keep on doing the two ball. And put him on a 15' line to keep reeling him in. If he's coming to you reluctantly then you need to pull that 2nd ball out and tease him with it so he wants to come back. You alternate between tugging with the ball and letting him win and throwing the ball so he chases. If you are only throwing the ball or giving it to him and then letting him go away with it, you aren't teaching him that the game is YOU, not the ball.

And don't fret. I have an 11 month old with super high possession. She still does not come back unless I call her. My boy was very different. He brings it back to play. She avoids so she can possess.

the food in your hand. Don't swing your arm around. The food is in your hand, he pushes into your hand and you reward. Then food in your hand, he pushes, you move while he continues to push, you rewards.

To chase the food in your hand, get him pushing for the food. then hold your hand close to you and jump away from him so he has to come forward to get it. Reward when he does. Then start doing things like turning away from him so he has to follow you to get it. 

As far as the clubs, contact them anyways. they might have someone that can you with this foundation until you join the club.


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## RSharpe75 (Oct 12, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> He's still a baby. Keep on doing the two ball. And put him on a 15' line to keep reeling him in. If he's coming to you reluctantly then you need to pull that 2nd ball out and tease him with it so he wants to come back. You alternate between tugging with the ball and letting him win and throwing the ball so he chases. If you are only throwing the ball or giving it to him and then letting him go away with it, you aren't teaching him that the game is YOU, not the ball.
> 
> And don't fret. I have an 11 month old with super high possession. She still does not come back unless I call her. My boy was very different. He brings it back to play. She avoids so she can possess.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jax, I'll keep persisting with the two ball game and also with him chasing my hand for treats. I'm now determined to get this dog to engage with me, because damnit, I'm interesting ?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What I found very helpful when you want attention is in some ways the opposite of what you'd think. They need to know when they don't have to pay attention. Focus is finite, you need a clear beginning and a clear ending. Tell him, or cue him its time to start, and the same when your done.


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## RSharpe75 (Oct 12, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> What I found very helpful when you want attention is in some ways the opposite of what you'd think. They need to know when they don't have to pay attention. Focus is finite, you need a clear beginning and a clear ending. Tell him, or cue him its time to start, and the same when your done.


Hi Steve, what I do to cue start is put his fur saver on. I don't attach a lead to it, the lead attaches to his flat collar. I simply use the fur saver to signal the beginning of work. After we're done, the fur saver comes off.

In the house, obviously where he is most comfortable, he literally jumps at me when he sees the fur saver. He wants to get it on and get fed. Outside however is a different kettle of fish. He ambles all over the place, sniffing, chasing bugs, etc.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd be more specific. Pull a toy out, tell him "Ready" or something, play, tell him "Done" put the toy away. They always know collar=something, but I find it to be more of a generalized excitement. The toy narrows it down very clearly.


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## RSharpe75 (Oct 12, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd be more specific. Pull a toy out, tell him "Ready" or something, play, tell him "Done" put the toy away. They always know collar=something, but I find it to be more of a generalized excitement. The toy narrows it down very clearly.


Thanks Steve. I'll start doing this when we play.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree with Steve. I start obedience the same way every time. I do something different for tracking and for protection. But it all involves a toy of some kind.

These are all signals we give our dogs before we take the field to let them know what we want. And in hopes that when we are in obedience, they aren't looking for the helper 

Deb Zappia has a video out for the platform. I haven't watched it because I used to train with her and I already know how to do it. But that game is super fun for them, your puppy is at the right age to start it. It teaches them to go out and come back. Go out, get to the platform and stay there (self control). The platform can be used for anything once they know it. Long dogs, motions, control in protection. You might want to look that up. I think it's about $30 for a week?


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## CoffeeGirl (Jul 31, 2018)

I'm working with my first working line GSD as well (she's not yet two years old). I found Michael Ellis videos to be very helpful in explaining and giving examples of how to build engagement. We did a lot of tug work/playing to build drive for a tug. We used food but also did some trial and error on the most high value foods and toys. For mine, it's barely cooked pieces of beef and a fetch ball. The high distraction areas we tackle with the higher value treats.

So for example, inside she gets lower value treats. She only gets the really high value ones when the environment is more distracting. And we did a crap ton of training sessions where the only thing we do is take her out to a new place, sit her down, and start rewarding simple eye contact with high value treats.

She doesn't have perfect attention by any stretch, but she does check in with us when we're out and about much better than any other dog I've ever had.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Does the dog being from working lines actually have anything to do with engagement?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pytheis said:


> Does the dog being from working lines actually have anything to do with engagement?


I think working lines tend to be more possessive and more independent. Other lines may lack engagement for other reasons. But what I read in the OP's first post was the puppy takes his toy and goes away. Possession and independence. My boy has less pos. and ind. than my female. He learned quickly that coming back to me meant more play. He pushes into me constantly with toys to get me to interact. My girl is like....MINE...All MINE...Get. Your. Own. and that will be MINE too.


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## RSharpe75 (Oct 12, 2018)

Pytheis said:


> Does the dog being from working lines actually have anything to do with engagement?


I wasn't sure if WL made a difference but I've only ever had show lines before and have never had any issue with engagement. They literally were stuck to me like glue. This boy however seems to want to be everywhere ekse BUT near me ... unless he's hungry ... and I've got food ... and we're in the house.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Interesting. I too have my first WL, so I was curious to see if it made a difference.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

RSharpe75 said:


> Hi Jax, I'm in Edinburgh, Scotland. We have a single IGP club that is about 45 minutes away. Unfortunately, I am unable to attend this club at the moment but will look into applying again next year. Currently I am working through an online course by Tobias Oleynik. I am also waiting for Denise's engagement through play class to start up at the beginning of August.
> 
> I do in fact teach him to push into my hand for the food and he does this brilliantly. I have also tried to make him chase my hand for food and when I do this, he constantly just takes my arm in his mouth. My arm, not my hand. And just to be clear, he isn't biting down on my arm, he's simply holding it in his mouth.
> 
> ...


Mine was like that too. He was actually resource guarding. In fact in the very beginning, I made the mistake of reaching for the ball. He bit my hand hard and drew blood. That same day, later on, he bit my hand again when I fed him his dinner. Twice in a day. I realized that I had to switch my whole approach with him and that I had a bigger problem than if I could teach him to play fetch. A lot of the resource guarding stemmed from when he was a puppy and he would constantly be picking leaves, pebbles, bark, trash, dirt, etc and eat it. And I would then have to reach into his mouth and take it out of him. It was non stop and walking him was very frustrating.

Back to the fetching. I was going to suggest the 2 ball or 2 frisbee thing too. Mine wouldn't bring back the ball either because of his resource guarding. He learned quick that I wouldn't throw the other one unless he brought the other one back to me. In the beginning he would get the 1st ball, then keep it and stay away. When I brought out the 2nd one, he noticed and I made a big deal like I was having a lot of fun with the 2nd one. Eventually he would drop the first one and focus on my playing with the 2nd one. The second he dropped the first one, I'd throw the 2nd ball. After days of this, I would tell him, "nah uh. go get the other one." He'd pick it up and I said, " good boy." We did that a lot. then, "I'd say bring it to me OR bring it." And so on. Anyway we got to the point now, that he would get the 1st ball bring it back to my feet drop it, and immediately I'd throw the 2nd one. So he never really stops for a break. It's like he's running laps. Maybe someone has a faster way or better way to teach their dogs. I had to figure it out with mine because what worked for my previous dog didn't work for him. A lot of trial and error.

So my whole point is that it's a process. For me it took some time. You have to teach him one small step at a time. And use your own commands. Maybe you have easier words. I've gotten to the point where it's now his favorite thing to do...especially with frisbees. He'll catch it in the air and bring it back and immediately run out to catch the 2nd one. By the way, I use cloth frisbees, not plastic frisbees. Plastic could chip his teeth. I'm sorry I didn't explain my process very well. If you don't understand it, I'll be more than happy to explain it again...except more clearly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Resource guarding and possession are the same thing. It all depends on how you handle it  
@RSharpe75 - look into this page. It was just posted on the IPO facebook page.

https://gettraining.canemodog.com/c...x81S6fnsamzB5rcLZNsZ86rJVMAMb1tPOjk3zOy6sWgNY

And join the facebook IPO pages. there are several. You can learn a lot and ask questions
https://www.facebook.com/groups/IPOTraining/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/175921333319435/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/748505005221955/
https://www.facebook.com/completecanine10/ (my trainers page - she has videos of pieces and you can look her up on vimeo and youtube)
There is another group something like IPO101. That's for new handler specifically.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Pytheis said:


> Interesting. I too have my first WL, so I was curious to see if it made a difference.


No matter what line, you still pay attention to your dogs temperament. They can do a lot of things in similar ways, but for very different reasons. One dog can guard something like a game, the other really means it. To get the results you want, you use that in different ways.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> No matter what line, you still pay attention to your dogs temperament. They can do a lot of things in similar ways, but for very different reasons. One dog can guard something like a game, the other really means it. To get the results you want, you use that in different ways.



Exactly. Not only different reasons but different levels.


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## Viktor Holmgren (Jan 14, 2019)

Everything you just said was true about my pup too. No matter how fun i was with his toys. He rather chew on it himself. Also working lines.

What I did was to take the Online course with Michael Ellis "The Power of Playing Tug w/ Your Dog"

university.leerburg.com/Catalog/viewCourse/cid/88

Now he just wanna play tug WITH me. Its the best thing in his life. 

Cannot recommend it enough. It avaiable in 3 formats. Take the Self study course. Think its the same price.

Good luck!


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

My dog, 9 months, has working line in him, and he's very independent, very "what's in it for me." Be careful about playing tug... we were using the Chuck-it with strap attached to play tug and get him excited, trying to increase engagement, and he got my hand. I ended up getting infected, having to go to the doctor, and he got reported. He's now on home quarantine for 10 days!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

My two males working mine and asl very intense with the ball drive. I know ball two ball is often talked a lot here a lot- i did not know it when I trained retrieve. With max when he was a pup. He always chased after the ball at 8 weeks old though. He was a food, ball and tug hound early.. When I wanted for him to bring the ball back more. I gave him cheese then threw the ball rinsed and repeat. (On a lead) Many may say don’t do that but I have no issues with engagement with him he always wants to do something with me 24-7. He does not come out of the ocean till he finds what I throw - it is dangerous so I’m careful ocean can be real rough here with lot of rip tides that are hard to see. I can throw his ball in the middle of piping plovers and he will go right for the ball( he has a high prey drive ) so I am always impressed how he ignores these very clear fleeing birds. (I dont throw the ball into the birds on purpose if it skips or jumps in their direction or just a bad throw) He always has super focus -when we are engaged -not sure if it is a male thing. It does get stronger as they mature. I have wild cats across the street and it is easy to forget how It was a challenge to get him to focus on me with the ball as a pup. Now the cats are completely invisible when we are engaged. Luna would rather knosh on her toys them give them back. She enjoys playing tug that’s her thing she likes to do with her people.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I love playing the 2 toy/2 ball game that Jax was talking about. Rollo & I used to play it all the time. Forces the dog to really focus & watch you.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I would also recommend doing your play (with the ball etc.) for a short structured time. Keeps his focus & energy on you high. Don't drag your sessions out into long ones, because that is when the dog loses focus & interest. You should end the session with your dog always wanting a little more. That will help build for future sessions.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Look at me exercises help they have a lot of videos on it helps with focus. I have did a lot of focus exercises with Max as a pup. 
Max as a young pup and Topper. 

Maturing Max with a family of wild turkeys passing behind us in our yard in the woods a few feet away. His ball as a reward. 



















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