# Way to go Baltimore Police... way to go...



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Watch and get angry...

YouTube - Baltimore Police Training K-9 Dog


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

:shocked: If i ever saw that i think, police man or not, he'd at the bare minimum hear my voice screaming in his ear. lol

BUT this video looks old? or is it just me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Example of why I really really really am hesitant to sell anything as a police dog unless I really KNOW the handler/buyer.

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I absolutely agree with you on that Wolfstraum. There are different ways to approach something like that.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

First of all, pronounce "nein" correctly.
I think that what he was trying to say. Boy, what a man.
I couldn't even finish watching it, halfway through...I had seen enough.

We've lost about three canine officers in the past two or three years due to the idiocracy of the handler's leaving them in cars during 90 plus degree weather.

This guy has confused dominance with your dog with aggression. What freakin' calm energy he has. Either that he's got his manhood stuck in a prong collar.

I don't have any experience in this area, but it just doesn't look like the dog is doing anything to warrant that kind of correction. It's not even really a pin.

Boy, I'd train with him...NOT!


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

Wow, I'm stunned to see that type of behavior in a professional setting. Makes you wonder.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I understand that there are dogs out there where have got to have the upper hand but that dog doesn't strike me as one of "those" dogs.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Was that a training exercise? I thought I heard a man in the background giving him instructions? Doesn't really matter, that guy didn't have clue and either did the instructor if that's what I heard in the background. Sickening whatever it was.

It is an old video, I think it said 2009.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Clearly the officer was building a bond with his Mal...establishing a level of trust in the relationship.....with the pack drive cultivated, I am sure that Mal would sacrifice his life for his partner.....his mother would be proud.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

How is that dog going to have enough confidence to perform as a canine officer? As courageous as they are needed to be?!


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Wrong in so many ways, do they not think that they could be causing neck or spine injuries to the dog?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

That dude is an idiot. I couldn't watch the rest of it because that video just made me sad.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I agree that that video looks older, but not that old. I've heard that police K9's used to be trained similar to that, but that is ridiculous.
If I had to supervise that guy, I'd be wondering what he's done to the people who frustrated him in the past.
In the agency that I worked for, we took only the better, calmer, more experienced deputies to work in our K9 Division. This guy appears to have little business even being a cop, much less a K9 handler.
That dog didn't look that "hard" to me. I'm guessing that the dog may be ruined. I always loved working with a dog that wanted to work and had that kind of energy/drive. 
You may have to tire him out a bit before doing some of the training, but that's way better to have that dog as opposed to one that you had to light a fire under to get going.
I don't have much experience with Mals, we only ever had 2 on the agency where I worked, but I never saw any reason to have to treat them like that.

What a shame. I wonder if that video gets more publicity of that cop will be charged with abuse/cruelty. I think he should be.

Just sad.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That was an older video that made the rounds when it came out and I seem to recall some sort of story behind it but cannot now. Hard to watch.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

This dog appears to be a bit out of control, is the officer not using the "alpha" training technique? Grant it, body slamming the dog was not necessary. This type of training is how my dog learned to respect, he'd have probably been put down already if this technique hadn't proven effective with him, because he was not beyond biting us and drawing blood, and constantly snapping at us.When done properly it doesn't hurt the dog, only his pride is hurt, and a dominant dog will scream something horrible when he doesn't want to submit.

The Dog Whisperer uses the same technique, it's just that this officer went a bit overboard.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This dog appears to be a bit out of control, is the officer not using the "alpha" training technique? Grant it, body slamming the dog was not necessary. This type of training is how my dog learned to respect, he'd have probably been put down already if this technique hadn't proven effective with him, because he was not beyond biting us and drawing blood, and constantly snapping at us.When done properly it doesn't hurt the dog, only his pride is hurt, and a dominant dog will scream something horrible when he doesn't want to submit.
> 
> The Dog Whisperer uses the same technique, it's just that this officer went a bit overboard.


I am with you on that. It looked like the dog was trying to bite the handler too. I do agree he took it a little bit too far but that isnt to say that there is no place for this type of training. Especially with super drivey, super spaz Mals.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't have experience with Mals, but that response was over the top for any kind of training, much less for a K9 where you're trying to build confidence and "swagger' in your dog. I'm not sure what caused the response in the dog, but it looked to me like the handler had the dog by the collar and the dog nipped at the handler. There is no excuse for this, but it is possible that the dog was hurt or surprised/pinched by the collar and reacted. Again, no excuse for nipping the handler, but did not warrant the response by the handler.
Not someone I'd want on my team. I also think it's likely that the BPD needs to do a better job of picking their dogs, especially if they're not equipped to deal with the type of dogs they're getting.
Just my opinion and, like I said, I don't have much experience with Mals. Is this type of behavior or dog common with them?


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Malinios have a rep for being borderline insane and a lot of the time it is very deserved. I have seen Mal's get frustrated and just bite whatever they can get there teeth into. It is just in the breed it seems. I also dont agree with the statement about needing to build confidence in your dog. That should not be an issue with police dog since you should have tested the dogs you are getting and not picking ones with low confidence level. The dogs i have seen that were corrected in the same style as the video(not to the same extent) are amazing dogs that get great bites in the field and place first in protection at all trials.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Maybe I misspoke, I didn't mean to build confidence (like they come soft) but to keep that sense of confidence going. I just don't think you need to use harsh corrections with your dog.
That's the way the I was "trained" and the way the dogs I worked with were trained. If agencies are using Mals like this, and are having success, I guess they know what they're doing and have a successful training program.
I don't know anyone from BPD so I have no way of gauging their K9 program.
Do the Mals tend to be more "dirty" as a general rule, or can they be "turned off" and have a reliable out?
Just curious.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Its hard to generalize because the best dog i have ever worked around was a Mal but i would say they are more dirty. They have a tendency to bite whatever is presented to them be it a leg, another officer in the wrong place, or even their handler if they are really spun up. The plus side of that is that nothing stops a Mal i have seen one litterally pull up the crawl space access cover off the floor and dive down into the crawl space and nothing beats a Mal as far as agility goes.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> ......This dog appears to be a bit out of control, is the officer not using the "alpha" training technique? The Dog Whisperer uses the same technique........


The technique employed seemed familiar, but I couldn't place it....thanks. The officer in question seems to be employing Cesar's more advanced methods....or at least those not typically captured on camera for general consumption.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I like the "bite whatever is presented to them."
My first K9 partner's very first bite was a 6'4" 250 lb guy running away from a stolen car. Running right down the middle of the street in the late afternoon. As the guy was running, my 90 lb GSD got a great bite...........it just happened to be on the inside of the guy's right thigh. I thought maybe we had done something wrong, but that's what the dog could get and he got it. It did make the guy quit resisting and give up real quick.
(I would have to)


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

They are supposed to flip the dogs around like that?


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm going to have to get out and watch more Mals at work. (Now that I'm retired, I have the time)
There is an agency near me that has gone to Mals for their K9 Unit because they're easier to get and more available. I know they now have a total of 3 Mals that are handler protection/K9/narc dogs. Have to give them a call next week and go to one of their training sessions.
Might even have to bring my bite suit along. (I'm sure that will be the "price" for going to their training.......it usually is)


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Dude bite suits are the way to go with Mals especially if they have a few street bites. They scare me sometimes.....but in a good way.


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

I kinda figured after your post about biting what's there. I'll get it out and take it with me.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Maybe a rock solid foundation wouldn't hurt either... just saying...


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Maybe a rock solid foundation wouldn't hurt either... just saying...


I am curious what this post is directed at....care to elaborate?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i couldnt even watch the whole thing. makes me very angry....


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

W.Oliver said:


> The technique employed seemed familiar, but I couldn't place it....thanks. The officer in question seems to be employing Cesar's more advanced methods....or at least those not typically captured on camera for general consumption.


The officer was attempting to do the "Alpha Roll" on the dog, once he had the dog on the ground he would not have completed this hold successfully unless he held the dog down by the neck area (mimicking the way an alpha dog/wolf would do in nature) and then held him there until the dog gave up the fight, and "submitted." The dog would be considered submitted when he completely stops struggling, doesn't look you directly in the eye, legs should be completely relaxed and not tense, and the dog should remain laying down after you let him go, now having learned that his place is below you in the pack.

Not every dog needs to be trained in this manner. This is for dogs who believe themselves to be Alpha, who are very dominant, and who do not think twice about becoming aggressive with their handler.

I do repeat that slamming the dog so forcibly to the ground was a bit excessive.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The officer was attempting to do the "Alpha Roll" on the dog, once he had the dog on the ground he would not have completed this hold successfully unless he held the dog down by the neck area (mimicking the way an alpha dog/wolf would do in nature) and then held him there until the dog gave up the fight, and "submitted." The dog would be considered submitted when he completely stops struggling, doesn't look you directly in the eye, legs should be completely relaxed and not tense, and the dog should remain laying down after you let him go, now having learned that his place is below you in the pack.
> 
> Not every dog needs to be trained in this manner. This is for dogs who believe themselves to be Alpha, who are very dominant, and who do not think twice about becoming aggressive with their handler.
> 
> I do repeat that slamming the dog so forcibly to the ground was a bit excessive.


I just want to add that since I described the Alpha Roll in detail, this should NEVER be done by ANYONE without first consulting a PROFESSIONAL.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> The officer was attempting to do the "Alpha Roll" on the dog, once he had the dog on the ground he would not have completed this hold successfully unless he held the dog down by the neck area (mimicking the way an alpha dog/wolf would do in nature) and then held him there until the dog gave up the fight, and "submitted."


Have you ever seen a wolf do this to another wolf, or anything even remotely close to it?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Coastie01 said:


> I am curious what this post is directed at....care to elaborate?


That it is obvious that the dog and the handler have serious lack of foundation and should go back to basic instead of doing what he did. 

There are different ways to approach the situation than what he did. It was blatantly stupid and he's lucky that he doesn't have the kind of dog that would have fought back.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> (mimicking the way an alpha dog/wolf would do in nature) and then held him there until the dog gave up the fight, and "submitted."


Do you realize that this never occurs in nature? That the alpha never forces another dog down, but rather the submissive dog lays down willingly? That a truly dominant wolf is not aggressive, but rather a beta wolf who is trying to gain status?


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lin said:


> Do you realize that this never occurs in nature? That the alpha never forces another dog down, but rather the submissive dog lays down willingly? That a truly dominant wolf is not aggressive, but rather a beta wolf who is trying to gain status?


And when the beta wolf is trying to gain status, what does the Alpha wolf do? This is the dire circumstance that causes the Alpha wolf to put him in the Alpha Roll, and he may even kill him. I am not going to debate it either because regardless, I know that it worked with my dog. My dog would not be here today if it weren't for the trainer who taught us how to do this, and the vet who recommended this as well. I am forever grateful to them, he now is able to live in harmony and safely with our family which includes young children.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> That it is obvious that the dog and the handler have serious lack of foundation and should go back to basic instead of doing what he did.
> 
> There are different ways to approach the situation than what he did. It was blatantly stupid and he's lucky that he doesn't have the kind of dog that would have fought back.


So holding a dog on a leash with someone agitating it is now advanced training? Maybe you should realize that there are some dogs that just dont magically go with the program and need to be put in their place. What the dude did was a little excessesive but not insanely out of line and saying he has no foundation knowledge is BS because he is using a training technique that works for many working dogs(granted he took it a little far). Street dog training and SchH training is different and some people dont seem to understand that.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I said it in another post. Police Departments still use archaic and cruel methods to train their dogs. They also hang them up in the air choking them as punishment. I got a lot of flack for saying it. I am not saying all departments do it, but a lot still do.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Coastie01 said:


> So holding a dog on a leash with someone agitating it is now advanced training? Maybe you should realize that there are some dogs that just dont magically go with the program and need to be put in their place. What the dude did was a little excessesive but not insanely out of line and saying he has no foundation knowledge is BS because he is using a training technique that works for many working dogs(granted he took it a little far). Street dog training and SchH training is different and some people dont seem to understand that.


Oh I perfectly understand. These kind of methods are used by many SchH people but last time I pointed that out I got flack and was told that it would NEVER, EVER happen at all and that I don't know what I am talking about. 

However, there are still different methods to put a dog into his place without using that kind of technique. I have a dog who doesn't care if she gets the ball or my hand or the helpers hand or the ball. She leaps forward to get that ball at all cost. It took me a week to correct her on that and now I can hand the ball, even throw it, have other dogs chase by her after the ball, without having to use any of these methods. 

Yes, I did correct her but not anywhere near like that and most of the time it was consistency and repetition and positive reinforcement. 

Compulsion on the other hand, does nothing good at all and most people use it the wrong way, just like this handler did. And that his trainer actually reinforced the handler to do that, speaks loud and clear of how they treat their dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Wolfiesmom said:


> I said it in another post. Police Departments still use archaic and cruel methods to train their dogs. They also hang them up in the air choking them as punishment. I got a lot of flack for saying it. I am not saying all departments do it, but a lot still do.


I remember that. I got a lot of flack too when I stated that a lot of people still use compulsion on their dogs. 

It's out there and it will always be out there. There is nothing wrong with a swift correction but stuff like shown in the vid makes me angry.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Well Mrs K I guess what it comes down to is different strokes for different folks. I think in extreme circumstances extreme measures should be taken, you dont. At the end of the day both our dogs love, respect, and work for us so task accomplished. Agree to disagree ;-)


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't have a problem with a person pinning their dog if they have to. I just don't like seeing it done incorrectly...the command not pronounced correctly...Sorry dogs don't generalize like that.
That wasn't even an Alpha Roll much less a pin.
That was a frustrated dog handler that redirected onto his dog. 
That was at that particular moment in time; an incompetent dog handler.
Who was more excited than the dog. (being a Mal...says a lot)
I've stated that I am not experienced in this area before but I'll say again...that was a horrific example of a K9 officer. Or, possibly a "what not to do video"


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Coastie01 said:


> Well Mrs K I guess what it comes down to is different strokes for different folks. I think in extreme circumstances extreme measures should be taken, you dont. At the end of the day both our dogs love, respect, and work for us so task accomplished. Agree to disagree ;-)


That's it, it didn't strike me as an extreme action from the dogs side that it justified to use that much force on the dog. 

But you are right, at the end of the day...


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> But you are right, at the end of the day...


die Scheiße stinkt immer noch ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

TitonsDad said:


> die Scheiße stinkt immer noch ...


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Du hast so Recht! Die Scheisse stinkt immer, egal aus welchem #$^@# sie kommt. 
Oh my god... you just made my day.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

My mother could read German really well. Why she took five years of German coming from a CIA (Catholic Irish Alcoholic) family I'll never know.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

CarrieJ said:


> My mother could read German really well. Why she took five years of German coming from a CIA (Catholic Irish Alcoholic) family I'll never know.


:spittingcoffee:


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## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> That was at that particular moment in time; an incompetent dog handler.
> Who was more excited than the dog. (being a Mal...says a lot)
> I've stated that I am not experienced in this area before but I'll say again...that was a horrific example of a K9 officer. Or, possibly a "what not to do video"


Agree with that part. Forget that is was a police K9 handler. It doesn't matter what you're trying to accomplish with your dog and for what purpose. That kind of ineffective method isn't going to do anything to help.

I've been at some K9 events and have talked to trainers and handlers that use these methods and heavy compulsion to work their dogs. (We were at an event in Alabama several years ago and had an interesting coversation with a older guy that had been a trainer for police dogs in the late 50's and early 60's..........I think what was seen in that video was NOTHING compared to some of the stuff that guy talked about.) I wasn't "trained" that way and have been fortunate to receive the dogs and training I worked with from K9 Units/trainers that didn't use these methods. I've used occassional harsh or hard corrections, but never to that extreme. I don't deny that there are trainers that still use these methods, but I also agree with MrsK, it's not only in training police K9's.
I always learned that if you've got a good dog that wants to work, why try kill that drive by being too harsh and putting out that fire. Make it work for you.
I've never had to work with or train with a dog like Coastie was describing, so I guess I don't know the level of frustration that a handler like that might experience. I also know that the person "off screen" was directing him in what he was doing, so maybe that's the norm for the BPD.
Good discussion and so far, no one has tried to take anyone's heads off.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

that cop should get beat senseless


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

My question is for the K-9 officers and handlers out there is:

How many excellent working dogs have to be destroyed due to inept handling and the dogs go sideways? As I understand it, these dogs are not inexpensive.

I completely understand sometimes having to get physical with a dog, but never when I'm frustrated or pissed off. It's just not effective and never produces any good results.

Repeating the statement again...this guy isn't even using a German command and expecting the dog to figure it out....


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## goatdude (Mar 3, 2009)

A truly disgusting display of "training". I really feel sorry for the poor dog and would like an opportunity to do the same to the handler, just so he could see how it feels.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

That video is at least 5 years old. I don't know who dug it up again. In fact, it may have even been discussed on this forum before. I'll agree it's a disgusting display of stupidity in more than one area.
One poster hit the nail on the head, the foundation work on that dog was pathetic. The dog was having problems remaining in the stay during gunfire training. The proper response for a dog during gunfire training is; no response. As you can see, the handler, apart from being frustrated and losing his temper, is not being effective in the corrections he is using. In fact, if you look at the dog, he almost seems to be enjoying the fight. One thing I have learned about working with high drive dogs, if you fight with a dog that likes it - - you have your hands full. Obviously, they (the trainers and handlers) should back training up to a point the dog is performing successful and move forward from there, slowly. It's purely foundation work. 

As for the poster that said this is the way police train, that is untrue. I'm police, been doing for over 40 years and I don't train that way. To even say most train this way would imply that you have personal knowledge of how most police departments train. I doubt it. Do trainers still use compulsion in police work. Of course they do. "Compulsion" is a big area and is not limited to choking dogs, slamming them into the gruound, kicking and punching. If I hear of a police service dog trainer that does not use any compulsion, the first thing that comes to mind is horse hockey.

DFrost


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Dfrost if you were refering to me as the poster who said this is the way to train police dogs, i didnt say that this is the only way. Each dog should be treated differently but to say this method should never be used is foolish. Again i say that he wasnt doing it right and got a little excessive but i stand behind the method shown here as it is an amazing tool when used right.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This youtube merits discussion beyond the handler's behaviour.
I watched the opening 5 seconds over and over and over again to see what initiated the wrestling match, the battle of the wills . The dog took a nip at the handlers arm . In the video the dog has 2 other bites on the handler . There is probably a histiory of this .
The handler had more control than the dog did. The handler could take directions - the dog could not , he was far too frantic . From the sidelines you can hear someone giving instructions , "there's the tail" "look him in the eye" .

The handler could have done worse and let the leash reel out and then the dog would have been flying back and biting like some wild thing possessed. At least there was some damage control.

In any case nothing was accomplished -- the dog did not learn a single thing, the limited working relation (dog/man) did not improve . 

Is the dog right for law enforcement . In my opinion I do not think so . I see huge liability. 

I see a dog that is way over the top in not being able to self control. So what was this dog's life experience. Bred for more and more "drive" , then raised with bite work from day one with rewards and stress relief coming from the bite work? To my eye this dog is not even in the "green category". Dog looks wild and self raised, made "mental" to bite work. Promoted for being a bad*ss , maligator , etc etc -- . What broker or vendor would offer a dog like this . Did the dept choose or was this one of those cases where the officer goes out and buys his own dog?

Police are handlers not trainers. A dog this age should have had strong foundations in obedience/ offering of behaviours , wide environmental experiences, proven to be safe to handler and to innocent public. Can you imagine control of this dog off lead ? calling him off from a bite? 

I had the privilege of several years training in French Ring with some of the best malinois and then meeting some of the French top world competitors -- the dogs had massive ability AND complete self control and stability -- (GSD also!) . I selected this youtubey to show you a malinois with the nerve structure and self control that would make a better candidate for service. 



 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow that guy was actually using Dutch commands.. "Nee" and "Foei" are dutch, not German.

Still, I hoped that dog would've gone for his throat in stead of the arm. Why would the dog do what the handles says when he can't even trust him?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My trainer adopted a GSD from the Baltimore PD that was supposed to be put down because he was too agressive towards the handler (essentially nobody could handle the dog). His wife, also training PPDs, worked with this dog (he was into biting men more than biting women) and the two of them turned him into an amazing dog with perfect control. He was the demo dog in training classes both for obedience and protection.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

carmspack said:


> This youtube merits discussion beyond the handler's behaviour.
> I watched the opening 5 seconds over and over and over again to see what initiated the wrestling match, the battle of the wills .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Which is why I said it's important to understand why the dog is doing what it's doing. It's control problems are caused by the gunfire. That indicates poor foundation training. The team needs to work on the stay with less distractions. As it's successful, you add distractions. A battle of wills is not a good training technique with a PSD.

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Blazings said:


> Wow that guy was actually using Dutch commands..
> Still, I hoped that dog would've gone for his throat in stead of the arm. Why would the dog do what the handles says when he can't even trust him?


I see your address is the Netherlands. Let's not mince too many words here. There is a good chance this dog came from Holland. It may even have a KNVP background. If that were the case, it would not be the first time that dog has ever seen a harsh physical correction. That aside, KNVP training is not all tidbits and good boys. Wish a dog would attack the handler's throat, for following instructions of his trainer is a bit on the harsh side in my estimation. 

DFrost


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## Blazings (Jan 24, 2011)

DFrost said:


> I see your address is the Netherlands. Let's not mince too many words here. There is a good chance this dog came from Holland. It may even have a KNVP background. If that were the case, it would not be the first time that dog has ever seen a harsh physical correction. That aside, KNVP training is not all tidbits and good boys. Wish a dog would attack the handler's throat, for following instructions of his trainer is a bit on the harsh side in my estimation.
> 
> DFrost


So you work(ed) at the KNVP? My uncle does and he's always very sweet with dogs. He and his wife are even running a kennel together. I've never heard a story of him about this and I don't think he could stand it if anyone hurt a dog in a physical way like that :crazy:


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