# Thinking about...



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

The possibility of J being a stud one day.
So far I'm thinking that in order to even consider it I would:
Get his hips, eyes, elbows, and heart cleared at the age of two.
CGC
Schutzhund titles
Conformation 
Possibly agility

What else should I do to make sure he's worth of passing on his genes?
He is NOT from champions, but if he has a stable mind and body, I wouldn't mind him giving me a grandbaby. 

Don't yell LOL
It'll be years before it may happen, if it ever does.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Understand what's in his bloodline (maternal & paternal) & what he'll be contributing to the breed; know the same about the potential mate.

How far back does his pedigree go & what were OFA scores, titles etc?

Remember that when you stud him out, you rarely get control over where the pups go & how many of them are bred down the line - for me this is a huge issue.

If you want to become a breeder, be passionate & knowledgeable about the breed first, then make sure you're in a position to be ultimately responsible for any pups that you produce (accept any pups/dogs back whether they are 10months or 10years - that's what you owe the dogs!), research, research to find your foundation dogs. 
One exceptional dog in a litter is not too uncommon, but to produce litters where the majority of the pups are outstanding, that is what you want for the breed.
(OK that is obviously all MY opinion







)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

That is a pretty comprehensive list of titles/certs. My one concern would be the motivation. Those titles are a lot of work. Do it because *you* want to and you want to use that process to bring out the best in your dog, not just as a check list in order to be able to stud him out.


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## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

There is way more to it than earning a handfull of titles & health certs. My recommendation is to learn as much about the working GSD as possible, join a SchH club, train your dog & then objectively assess what you've learned. Then get your next pup from a breeder who has earned your respect & the respect of those in your club by producing quality dogs from titled & breed surveyed adults. There are VERY few STUDS out there & there are a lot of decent breeders trying to ID that stud for use in a well thought out breeding program.

John Haudenshield


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I do know quite a bit about GSDs, but not breeding.

Yes, I would expect the bitch to be as good as he is, if he is at all, not sure yet!

I only know about the parents, and grandparents. Both sets are OFA'd 'good' or 'excellent' ' according to the breeder, who still owns his granddam. No titles, as far as I know, which is why I would want so many on him to prove his worth, since I don't know what his parents are other than having stable temperaments and bodies from the breeder's account.

This was just an odd passing thought (I have many XP), I probably will not breed him, but it will be considered IF he can get most of the things I listed. But I will try for those either way, I certainly want to do it for him and me, not POSSIBLE future pups. 

If I ever did, I would ONLY breed to a bitch who's owner have a Spay/neuter contract.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Is this the breeder? 

If the two dogs names listed in your first post on that thread are the parents, neither of them are listed on the OFA website. Did you ask for proof of OFA or did the breeder just tell you that they were OFAed? If you plan to breed him I would definitely want PROOF that OFA's were indeed done and research the parents, their puppies and the parents litter mates. If he is the ONLY one that gets cleared by OFA there is not much information to go on. 

If the parents did not work how will you what characteristics you might need to improve on or maintain? Would you base it solely on the titles that you are aiming to obtain with him? He is only a SMALL part of the big picture. Knowing the working ability and temperament of his parents and sibling and his parents sibling provides just an much information if not MORE than what you see working with your dog. 

With all due respect taking the word of the breeder regarding OFA, health and temperament is not exactly an unbiased view like you would receive from a trial judges and OFA certified vets viewing and grading the x-rays. A local vet is not necessarily knowledgeable enough to read x-rays other than the OBVIOUS routine things the vet deals with. I have some very good vets but I know they do not have the experience to read joint x-rays like the ones at OFA do. 

What happens if your dog DOES achieve all of his titles and health certs but say 2 litter mates were PTS because of poor joints or other major health issues and another because of poor temperament/nerve that attacked the neighbor? What are the chances that the breeder would be forthright and share this information with you or even of the owners of the pups would notify them of the issues? 

Why would you require that the owner of the female have spay/neuter contracts? What if his pups (should all of the criteria be met and you have proven facts that they other dogs in the immediate family are healthy in mind and body yadda yadda yadda). What if a future puppy owner has the same goals as you do but they would have to spay/neuter their pet? 

Personally if I was looking to breed a dog and I wanted to take a crap shoot with a puppy (that may or may not pan out in 2-4 years and prove to be breeding quality) instead of buying an adult (tested, trialed and meets my criteria), I would buy a puppy from a breeder that was involved in the activities that *I* would pursue, I would know they type of personality, drive, work ability and health that *I* want to produce and I would be willing to wait for that perfect pup to be bred, whelped and matched with *MY* goals, abilities and preference. 

I would not base the future of my breeding program on the word of the owners of the puppies who, in reality, are looking to make a sale. *I* would not base it on a local vet. Now if it was a well known and respected vet in the vet community it would bring a little more bearing in my decision but I would still want documentation not hearsay. *I* would want tangible proof to back up the claims.

There is a lot more to breeding a dog than just taking ONE dog into consideration.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Here is another suggestion - if you want to own studs, maybe get with a breeder who has a good program going, form a team or partnership. Many breeders own more bitches than studs, and some don't own any males because they are already devoting so much time to developing and training their bitches, and properly whelping the litters. Some breeders might like the idea of you purchasing or co-owning a male that has promise, to possibly be used in the breeding program. Then you know you can trust the breeders/owners of the females being bred to your stud.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Reading X-rays on hips and elbows are not magic, and I know many many breeders that can read x-rays well enough for breeding purposes.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I know that OFA isn't perfect, however, where does a person draw the line on who is capable and who isn't capable of properly reading x-rays? Where YOU might know the people involved but Joe on the puppy waiting list doesn't really know that that well. 

To me having an independent, well known organization to certify hips and elbows takes away some of the guess work. It is kind of the whole reason SCH and conformation have third party judges, isn't it? Most good breeders know and understand their dogs pros and cons in work and structure so if they can evaluate x-rays why can't their word be good enough for working ability and structure? Why bother showing and/or trialing breeding stock?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Don't take my last post as being anti X-ray, because I believe ALL dogs that are to be bred should be x-rayed. But too often I have seen on this forum somebody run to the OFA site and if they don't see an OFA on the dog then they pass an unfavorable comment on the dog. ****, the dog could have an A stamp, could be Penhipped, or OVC, etc. There are many people who can read an x-ray intelligently....its not some secret formula that only the people at OFA possess. Also, a breeders has to factor hips with body type, temperament, and family history. All of these things are as important as the actual x-ray if you are going to do breeding. OFA certs have given more people a liscense to breed NONCOMPATIBLE dogs than almost any single component. this doesn't make the cert bad, but it is the mindset that this cert is "primary component" to successful breeding....NOT....Hip validation is important, but in the context of the other elements and their compatibility with the other mate.JMO


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I didn't take your post as an anti- x-ray.









I thought it would make for a good continued discussion so I play a little devils advocate every once in a while. I agree that OFA should NOT make a dog breed worthy. It is a small piece of the puzzle. An important piece but 1 certified dog in an entire 3-4 generation pedigree does not contribute enough information about hip genetics to deem a dog worth to breed. IMO. 

Just like 1 dog in a 3-4 generation pedigree with a working title and a conformation rating provides enough information for the dog to be deemed "breed worthy".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

We are on the same sheet of music!!!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Oh crap, I said OFA, no, she had x-rays of the hips and elbows Gah, brain farts all the time...

As I said, I wondered what I SHOULD do to make sure he is breedworthy, not that I actually plan on breeding him, he is sort of an example of what I would WANT to do. I don't think he will be breedworthy, but I want to know what one SHOULD accomplish with their dog before studding him out, just say the dog in question is from champion lines and all of his siblings are 100% in everything, the perfect dog, what would you want to have done with him to PROVE he is worth passing on?



I didn't get his pedigree yet, I am filling out his AKC form and sending it in now. for his 3 generation ped.

As for the S/N contract, I was in a rush and didn't elaborate; if the puppy were going to a pet home with no desire to show or title, I would want a neuter contract. If they planned on titling and getting everything that is necessary done, that would be their choice.


Just to let you know, I am very appreciative of your advice Amaruq, so don't think I am not! That goes for the rest who posted, too.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

If you haven't sent in your AKC stuff yet, get the 4-gen pedigree instead of the 3-gen. If you ever plan to do schutzhund or SV style conformation, you will need the 4-gen pedigree to complete all the registration.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you, I am still undecided about Sch, so I will do that.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveAs I said, I wondered what I SHOULD do to make sure he is breedworthy, not that I actually plan on breeding him, he is sort of an example of what I would WANT to do. I don't think he will be breedworthy, but I want to know what one SHOULD accomplish with their dog before studding him out, just say the dog in question is from champion lines and all of his siblings are 100% in everything, the perfect dog, what would you want to have done with him to PROVE he is worth passing on?


In my opinion... it really depends on your goals for the breed. You mention champion lines, so maybe that means you want to breed show line dogs? But you also mentioned doing schutzhund with him, so maybe you want to breed working line dogs? 

Obviously one should get health checks and certs and make sure their dog is temperamentally sound, but in the end it is taking the dog you have (as well as the knowledge of their background) and assessing his/her qualities and finding a match that will bring out the best from both parents (as well as understanding undesirable traits that may occur) for what you hope to accomplish, whether it be for show or working, or both... just imo.

I have considered breeding my dog when he is older if he proves himself physically and temperamentally and acquires his SchH titles (despite my shortcomings, which should be another title in and of itself haha). But he will never get any CH titles because he does not have the structure for it though I hope to maybe him koer-klassed. He is from working lines and I know his lines so if I do decide he is worth breeding, I will look for a compatible working line female. 

I could find a female with tons of CH titles in her bloodlines but that would likely be a poor choice to breed with as I would be looking a puppy to keep back and work with, not to show with. So I think you need to decide what you want to do for the breed and with any puppies you keep back for yourself whether it be show prospects or working prospects as breeders don't often try to combine lines... jmo.


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