# Perfect dog but reactive to other dogs when on Leash



## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Not sure if this is the correct section to put this in because my dog has not bitten anyone or any dog yet and i am fairly certain the only reason he barks/launges at other dogs is because he wants to get to them to meet them and play.

I got a 1 year old long hair GSD about 8 months ago and he has been the most amazing dog.

Over the last 8 months i have thought him many many tricks with ease. I live in a townhouse and i usually let him out off leash and never had any issues with plenty of people passing by he listens to all my commands, he is very friendly with all people and i feel comfortable with him being around anyone. Had plenty of people come visit me at my house and everyone loves him. Even the people that are afraid of dogs quickly warm up to him and start liking him. When he encounters other dogs off leash he runs to them and wants to play and sniff them (no barking or any aggressive behavior). 

Problem is when i am walking with him on the leash and he sees another dog he goes CRAZY barking pulling and wanting to get to other dog. Now i am fairly certain that he does this because he just wants to go meet/play with other dogs because i know most trainers say dont do this but i let him get close to 2-3 dogs while on leash (with other owner approval) and his barking launging stopped and he just sniffed the dog when initially he was barking pulling and he just ends up licking them and sniffing them... NO BITE. In fact this happened when i saw another GSD coming toward us and the owner was like its ok its ok let them meet and i did and nothing happened. Both of the dogs were barking at each other and pulling toward each other and this stopped as we got closer to each other and when they met they seemed to like each other just typical sniffing and later on they relaxed as we continued to talk. His dog was 6 years old and he pointed out that just like my dog his dog seems to only bark and launge at other dogs when on leash but his dog doesnt bite either if they get close. 

Despite this i want to stop this behavior as it is embarrassing and annoying as ****. It makes walks very very frustrating and often times id love to go to talk to people that are also walking their dog but i cant do this because of him. The tips and tricks i got from youtube and google frankly seem very very stupid to me 

1) Avoidance ...avoid dogs when walking on leash.... that is the dumbest thing i ever heard because how am i suppose to know i am about to run into another person walking the dog. 

2) Make a UTURN - Once again if i am walking toward my house i am suppose to make a U-Turn and walk away from my house until the other owner decides to turn somewhere else. ???? Seems very stupid to me.

3) Give treats when my dog sees another dog.... he doesnt care about treats if he sees another dog he just wants to go toward it. 

4) Block vision of the dog... i tried standing in between and he just moves his head past me to look at the other dog and i look like even bigger idiot. 

Anybody actually have a real way to fix this situation. I also want to point out that my sister has a english mastiff and GSD and he gets along just fine with them and often goes to their house to play and socialize. My sisters GSD also used to bark and launge at other dogs but as her GSD got older she stopped on her own.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

How do you correct the dog when he starts this behavior?

The solution is pretty straight forward: Teach the dog a solid heel and/or leave it command.


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

Been there. My current female GSD was stupidly reactive when I adopted her. We have control now, and gone leaps and bounds to shrink her "threshold".

Here is what worked for us. Keep in mind, my dogs behavior is more from insecurity than excitement and willingness to play. My GSD is very "bossy" with other dogs, and goes out of her way to dominate/control them. She went through multiple animal shelters as a young dog (6-9 mos) and it messed her up.

Look into BAT 2.0 by Grisha Stewart. There is a book that is quite helpful. It discusses thresholds and all that jazz. Recognizing the more subtle signs of freak out mode and having tools to fix it does wonders for your sanity. 

E collar with trainer combined with the above did wonders. She went from tasmanian devil just hearing dog tags down the street to doing obedience around groups of other dogs. 

She learned to make the choice: See another dog, look at me. Why? Because I'll handle it. We will calmly move away and you will be rewarded. Don't like the other dog staring at you (HUGE trigger for her), then stare at me while we walk by.

Your dog needs to learn that freaking out will NOT get him what he wants. In my dogs case, it was likely to move AWAY from the other dog. In your dogs case, it sounds like he wants to move TO the other dog. If I were you, I would make sure he was completely calm before any play time with other dogs. This sounds like something very rewarding to him, and he should do what you ask (be and act sane) to get there.

There are more experienced people here, but just my two cents.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Actually I'm in the process of fixing this now. Pretty simply stuff if you aren't afraid of using some compulsion tools. Teaching avoidance is really easy. Walk him in a prong or e-collar. First sign that he's staring correct him and praise him when he looks back to you. You're going to look bipolar to strangers "NOO!!" "YES GOOD BOY!!" The big thing here is timing. If he's barking you're too late. That correction needs to come the second he stares at the other dog. Walk him during peak walking hours. Go looking for other dogs. You want him to mess up and make mistakes so you can correct him and teach him the behaviors you do and don't want.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

This is a common problem. Letting your dog go up to dogs arter reacting is making the problem worse.

If your dog reacts NEVER give in and let the dog go see the other dog. It is likely reacting because it wants to see the other dog, so you are giving in to the dogs wants by doing this.

Teach your dog leave it, or watch me. This way when you see a dog in the distance you can tell the dog one of these and it will focus on you instead of the dog. Do you use a prong collar? If not that can be a wonderful tool to correct the dog before it reacts. You have to show the dog that reacting will NEVER get you what you want! Reward heavily for remaining calm. If the dog is still reacting then you are too close.My cattle dog used to be extremely reactive. Just the sound of a dog would have her going nuts. This is her now.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

As long as you "reward" your dog by allowing him to greet and meet "is your dog friendly people???" Your going to continue to struggle??? 

My motto is "I don't know you I don't know your dog, you keep your distance, we'll keep ours ... thank you very much." My dogs have ZERO, expectations of meeting other dogs. And if we can't avoid/cross the street, we step aside and wait. And ape crap crazy ... can go past us within feet and there would be "Zero Response" from my dogs. 

No treats, no distractions and a flat leash and regular collar back then, although these days I'm a Slip Leash guy. But it all starts with "an owner making good choices for there dog " And right now since your dog "expects" to be allowed to meet "is your dog friendly people and there dogs??" Getting to dog neutral, is gonna take a bit more work ... but it can still be done.


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## griz (Jan 1, 2001)

Chip18 said:


> As long as you "reward" your dog by allowing him to greet and meet "is your dog friendly people???" Your going to continue to struggle???
> 
> )


 this a million times

If you let your dog act like a 15 year old girl at a justin beiber concert EVERY time it sees a dog, and then REWARD that behavior by allowing him to go see said dog, all you are doing is REWARDING and encouraging the behavior. 

Stop immediately. Find your dogs theshold to dogs on leash. Reward ignoring other dogs. Get closer, ignore, reward. It could take months for his behavior to change... but never ever let him go to another dog after acting like a fool. 

Your dog doesnt need doggie friends. Do you find yourself approaching strangers on the street and clapping each other on the back and swapping old fishing stories? Why would you allow your dog the equivalent?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Gotta second the prong collar and teach leave it as well as heel. The prong worked instantly for my last german shepherd and my current one. My current shep is very vocal when he wants to play and we took him to puppy play dates every week so when we saw another dog on the street he just thought it was a puppy play date. I introduced the prong, and yes he was vocal about it the first time but never again. He went nutty towards the other dog, I gave a light correction and he looked at me and then I rewarded. We now tell him leave it and heel when he sees another dog on the street, and if he starts to pull towards them we give him a quick pop. Negative and positive enforcement is important to all walks of life... its natural to learn both ways. I am a little weak girl that can't even put a lot of force into a correction and both my boys have responded beautifully to the prong and rewards for good behavior. After some time when I am confident they no longer will react I can remove the prong collar and the behavior never surfaces again. If it does, we just go back to training. Taking your dog to classes will also get him more used to being around other dogs. He will also bond more with you and learn to trust that you will protect him and make good decisions when it comes to other dogs. I agree with the others, no reason to let him meet the other dogs when he is being a jerk.... that just rewards bad behavior. Instead if you really want him to meet other dogs, only allow it when he is calm, quiet, and after he has listened to you and been put in a sit. The avoidance technique never worked for me either, we are in a crowded area and sometimes you just can't get away... it does help to put as much distance as you can between the other dog and then work your way closer if its possible. My guy now knows the difference between a puppy play date and random dogs being walked on the street. He can freak out as much as he wants for all I care if its puppy play day lol.


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## Evohog (Jul 18, 2017)

I agree with what was said before. You are rewarding your dog for a behavior you don't like.

Read up and watch on how to use a prong collar and go buy one. In that order!!!! 
And get the Herm Sprenger one, not the ones they sell in big box stores. When you read up and watch you'll know why.

You will notice a difference within minutes of using the prong collar.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm not a trainer, this is just a technique I was taught. That said, it was a small part of training program I paid for, and worth many pennies, so take my advice for what it's worth (free). A good trainer is gold. 

With a prong, or other aversive (some consequence that the dog will prefer to avoid), walk forward toward the other dog as long as a)the leash is loose, b) your dogs belly doesn't get further away from you then your knee. As soon as your dog moves ahead of you, make an abrupt u-turn in the opposite direction & continue several steps (move fast).

If your dog moves with you (doesn't hit the end of the leash and follows you) you stop, calmly praise & reward (yes, use high value treats if that turns on your dog) and repeat.

If your dog doesn't move with you, he will get a well-timed correction, you do the same as above (continue to retreat away from the dog until your dog catches up to you then stop for 30 seconds) but minus the treats and praise (just stand for a bit & settle, then repeat, but no praise/talk or attention).

Your dog should learn to follow you fairly quickly and then have a quiet party when that happens (think tea party with buttery crumpets, not wild drinking college frat party).<--your tea party needs to be when your dog is NOT looking at the other dog, and after it has turned with you and away from the dog.

You may need to find some fenced or otherwise controlled dogs to start with. Obviously, don't risk getting too close to another dog-- heeling, or ignoring a dog as you pass each other across the street is awesome, no need to get closer, and avoid dogs that appear to be under less than capable control.
Once your dog 'gets' that paying attention to you is a good idea, you can move on the other stuff, like teaching obedience by your preferred method.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

All above good advice - BAT 2.0 especially. This works for overly friendly/excited dogs as well as fearful. I combined this with balanced training and it made a big difference in Woolf.

The Uturn may seem stupid but it plays a good role in breaking your dog's focus on the other dog and gets the focus back on you. Use this when you miss that first indication that your dog is about to act out. Cut across in front of your dog making the uturn, breaking the focus.

Someone mentioned a trainer, this can't be said enough. Locate a good trainer - experienced with GSD. That second set of eyes helps us to see all the communication clues we are missing in these dogs.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Thank you all so much for all of your input. I do want to point out that most times i do not reward him and dont let him meet another dog ...the few times i did it was just a test to see what the **** would happen if he did get close because my dog is exteremly friendly when off leash so i just wanted to see what was the cause of him acting this way when on leash. You guys did make a good point so i will not let him meet anymore dogs when hes acting so bad anymore. 

I went ahead and ordered prong collar. I got this one hopefully it will work i picked that one since it seemed easy to put on.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00L8BFW2G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also have a fairly expensive ecoller that i paid $169.99 for it when i first got my GSD. It is this one 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B017C6GWAQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The problem with that ecoller is that my GSD is long hair GSD and long hair prongs that came with the ecoller dont seem to work very well. No matter how tight i put the leash it doesnt seem to make contact with his skin and the one time i did i somehow manage to make contact with skin ...at the lowest setting it made my GSD jump in air and start running around like a chicken without head. So it made me feel very bad that i shocked him (mind you it was at lowest setting) and i did not want to do that every time i put the collar on just to test it. For those of you that used ecoller do you have any suggestion with this problem as it stands now i have completely wasted $169.99 because once my GSD jumped in air and started running around like crazy i did not want to shock him anymore because i felt terrible. I am sure if someone saw me do that to my GSD they would call animal control on me lol...heck if i saw someone do that to their dog i would probably go up to them and say what the heck are you doing to your dog it looked that bad.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> As long as you "reward" your dog by allowing him to greet and meet "is your dog friendly people???" Your going to continue to struggle???
> 
> My motto is "I don't know you I don't know your dog, you keep your distance, we'll keep ours ... thank you very much." My dogs have ZERO, expectations of meeting other dogs. And if we can't avoid/cross the street, we step aside and wait. And ape crap crazy ... can go past us within feet and there would be "Zero Response" from my dogs.
> 
> No treats, no distractions and a flat leash and regular collar back then, although these days I'm a Slip Leash guy. But it all starts with "an owner making good choices for there dog " And right now since your dog "expects" to be allowed to meet "is your dog friendly people and there dogs??" Getting to dog neutral, is gonna take a bit more work ... but it can still be done.


I am an extrovert and i actually want to meet and talk to other dog owners when on walks...and i want my dog to behave when right next to their dog. That is a big motivation for me to get this done right...I will drive past a park and ill see people walking their dog right next to each other or passing each other with their dog not reacting and that makes me envious.

The few times i met people while out on walks have been great after the initial comotion of my dog over excitement. I had some very nice conversations with dog owners especially the two GSD dog owenrs i met and it would be nice to be able to go out for walks with some of them.

Actually one of the GSD owners i met we exchanged numbers and said we would take them on walk sometime but i have never reached out to him simply because i dont want to deal with my dog going crazy in the beginning.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

your steps 1 - 4 are good tools. 

1) Avoidance can be a simple as walking on the other side of the street. I do this all the time and if things go smoothly we sometimes even stop and chat. 

2) The U turn doesn't mean go all the way back. I just turned in circles. It became "If you want to look at that other dog you have to calmly check in with me first".

3) Treats after your dog zeros in on the other dog does not work with my dogs either. They get rewarded for passing the other dog calmly. This was a huge challenge for my boy growing up. 

4) Block the vision I used quite a bit when I took my boy to a group class at about 1 1/2. We stood in the corner and I kept telling him to Look At Me. I took the class specifically to show him that I expected him to behave calmly near other dogs. He already knew sit, down, heel, etc. 

The best way to get dogs to be calm around other dogs that I have found is to walk in the same direction. They start walking as a pack. Even if you start on opposite sides of the street you will probably be able to move together after awhile.

 Putting our dogs on a leash messes up their doggy manners. As you noticed, once they go through their greetings they can be just fine. The problem is for us is that we never know who will be "just fine" and who will be "just as I thought, you are a jerk" to our dogs. The leashes help us proceed with caution and take action of two dogs decide they really don't like each other.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

islanddog said:


> Your dog should learn to follow you fairly quickly and then have a quiet party when that happens (think tea party with buttery crumpets, not wild drinking college frat party).<--your tea party needs to be when your dog is NOT looking at the other dog, and after it has turned with you and away from the dog.


I love this description.

Not too sure about the fenced idea. I find that fences make dogs exceptionally brave. We walk past "fence dogs" and "window dogs" just fine. But if we linger and take time to look at the dogs barking behind the fence, my guys might take up the challenge and bark back. That is not a behavior I want them to practice. I will say, though, a few weeks past, a 6 food privacy fence hid the Fence Dog from me and when it barked I jumped! My dogs looked at me like, "why did you jump?" It laughed.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

UPDATE: 

So i decided to take out the shock collar and try my luck again. I tried to put it on his neck and once again could not get it to have contact with the skin ; his hair is just too thick so finally i decided to put the two prongs on his chin where he doesnt have long hair and i set it to two out of 9 and he started reacting to shocks by coming up to me and going under my leg but he did not jump up in air and start running like a chicken which was good sign that it was working but it wasnt too much. 

Since the ecollar seemed to be working i deiced to take him to park and do some training by bringing out his two favorite toys... ball and little toy rv that he loves to chase. Now normally if i tell him to come and sit he will do that and if i tell him to stay he will stay UNTIL i throw the ball or make the rv car move ...as soon as i throw the ball or make the rv car move he will start chasing either one of them and would not listen to my stay command or stop command. I tried before many times to teach him to stay put even after i throw the ball but to no avail he would just run as soon as i threw the ball. 

So this time when i told him to stay and i threw the ball he started running after it but i press the shock button and he stopped immediately and come back to me. I got the ball again told him to stay and threw it again and he stood still. After a few times of him listening to stay command while i was throwing the ball even sometimes rolling it few inches by him and him not going after it i decided to threw the ball and told him go and as soon as i said go he went after it. So i mixed it up few times and he was pretty much able to get it 100% of the time where he would only go after the ball after i told him go. UNBELIEVABLE.

Finally i told him to stay and i made the RV car move and he stayed did not go after it where before he would go nuts and chase it immediately and would not listen to me saying stop of come here but now he ignored the car even moving few inches by him. 

I got home and gave him a bunch of treats took off the ecollar and then let him rest a bit. I tried to replicate what we worked on in the park in the house with the ecollar off and to my amazement it worked 100%. He stayed when i threw the ball in the house until i told him go even though ecollar was off. Very good sign.

Now the true test will be what happen when he sees a dog and i tell him to sit and stay... 

So if i have the ecollar on and he sees a dog and starts reacting i should shock him and tell him to stay?...if he continues barking i should shock him again ? Is that the best way to teach him not to react to dogs or do you guys suggest doing it a different way ? Obviously i will have leash on as well just incase the ecollar doesnt work and he still wants to pull and go toward the dog. I plan on walking him today during peak hours and working on this


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You really need to read up on e-collar training. The easiest way to learn is to buy Larry Krohn's booklet and follow his instructions. Simple read, easy for anyone to follow, and will get you started. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=e+collar+training. It's just over $10, so anyone can afford it. He also has a bunch of free videos on YouTube that basically say the same thing with demos. If you really want to get into e-collar work (after you've understood the basics) check out Bart Bellon and Ivan Balabanov- not just for e-collar but any dog training, they are among the absolute best. 

E-collar work is NOT just shocking a dog for non -compliance. That might work- for a bit- but it's not going to be best for long run and also you can run into all sorts of issues if and when you start using an e-collar around other dogs if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Because once the dog gets into a high enough state of arousal you are going to run into problems without a solid foundation of training.

Basically, with your problems, a prong should suffice. IslandDog had some good advice on prong intro- you can do almost the exact same thing with e-collar (and should- see Larry's book). I use e-collar for off leash or in situations when I am interested in a less personal, higher level correction for stuff like chasing cars (a deadly habit I needed to extinguish). But certainly, e-collar has many uses, which is why I refer you to those with more experience!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If you're going to continue using the e-collar, PLEASE find a competent trainer to help you. I'm not opposed to aversives like prongs and e-collars, I have them and use or have used them. But you really need to know what you're doing or you could mess up your dog. 

Simply punishing him after he's already started to react to the other dog is not the most affective way to address this problem. What you want is to _prevent_ reactions from occurring in the first place. Every time you allow him to practice bad behavior you're setting back your efforts, no matter what the behavior is that you want to fix. Once he's reacting he's no longer thinking, so he's not actually learning anything either. Work with him at a distance where he's aware of the other dog but is not so distracted that he's unable to focus on and work with you. 

It's also not a bad idea to work on building focus in general, as a completely separate exercise. I start doing this with a new puppy by marking (verbally - "yes!", or with a clicker) when the puppy looks at me. The more s/he gets rewarded, the more the puppy seeks out eye contact. At that point I can name it ("watch") and ask for it, although not in highly distracting situations at first.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you insist on using remote collar you should go to trainer and learn to use it right...using it to enforce commands that the dog doesn't have the foundation to do without the collar is cruel in my opinion.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

1800CoolGuy said:


> I am an extrovert and i actually want to meet and talk to other dog owners when on walks...and i want my dog to behave when right next to their dog. That is a big motivation for me to get this done right...I will drive past a park and ill see people walking their dog right next to each other or passing each other with their dog not reacting and that makes me envious.
> 
> The few times i met people while out on walks have been great after the initial comotion of my dog over excitement. I had some very nice conversations with dog owners especially the two GSD dog owenrs i met and it would be nice to be able to go out for walks with some of them.
> 
> Actually one of the GSD owners i met we exchanged numbers and said we would take them on walk sometime but i have never reached out to him simply because i dont want to deal with my dog going crazy in the beginning.


None of the above is unreasonable?? 

And dogs don't "need" to associate/play with other dogs to be able to achieve "ignoring other dogs." Most owners just, assume they do.

Oh well another topic perhaps?? And now your on to the E-Collar?? Nothing wrong with an E-Collar, when used properly but one has to wonder, why the sudden rush for perfection??? 

If you have pack walks available, where you are that would be a good start. That and not rewarding her by allowing her to meet unknown dogs on walks. 

And the U-turn bit, the way it should work would be like this.:





And to throw a wrench into your current plan, so you know not everyone uses the "E-Collar" to address "aggression issues."


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

1800CoolGuy said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> So i decided to take out the shock collar and try my luck again. I tried to put it on his neck and once again could not get it to have contact with the skin ; his hair is just too thick so finally i decided to put the two prongs on his chin where he doesnt have long hair and i set it to two out of 9 and he started reacting to shocks by coming up to me and going under my leg but he did not jump up in air and start running like a chicken which was good sign that it was working but it wasnt too much.
> 
> ...



On a positive note, I do not think this issue with your dog is a big deal and is easily corrected. 

I'm sorry, but you are doing so many things wrong. Many have stated correctly that you need to stop using the E collar in this manner. What you think is great progress can actually be shutting the dog down and cause more problems down the road. Compulsion breeds avoidance and that is what you will get, but not in a beneficial way. 

Secondly, return that prong collar, it is a crappy one. Spend a little extra money and get a Herm Sprenger prong collar, it will be worth the extra cost. The prong collars from petco or petsmart are garbage, poorly made and will more than likely pop off your dog at a very inopportune time. 

What you need is simply more and better obedience, trained correctly. You need to teach your dog focus and impulse control. Your dog needs to learn to respond to you in a positive way and needs to learn some boundaries. Obedience training based on praise and reward when correct and properly administered and timed corrections when disobedient is what is needed. 

Before you can correct the excited behavior around other dogs, your dog must know the basics and perform them reliably. You do not need an E collar to train your dog to not react to other dogs. You simply need some basic obedience and an understanding of how praise, reward and compulsion works. An E collar correction with out proper training can be disastrous when dealing with a reactive dog. A prong collar would be a safer bet. Teaching your dog to focus on you and avoid other dogs is a good way to go. But, you can not simply correct your dog for a behavior it has not been taught or understands. 

I hope that makes sense.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Every single person in the responses recommended either e collar or prong collar as the solution to fix the reactive dog issue and when i actually pull out the the ecollar and use it people are freaking out. 

I guess i should have mentioned that i am not some IDIOT and i DID NOT just decide to put on the e collar and start zapping my dog randomly without doing any type of research. I have read Lou Castle material on using e collar and watched many videos back when i first got the e collar 8 months ago. I have also read other books on training and watched 1000's of hours on dog training which is how i was able to teach my sister and my dog many tricks without using e collar. 

As mentioned before back then when i got the e-coller i had a hard time getting the prongs to make contact with his skin as his coat is very thick. When i finally managed to make contact with skin i put it on and my dog jumped up in the air on the lowest setting and i decided not to use the e collar anymore until today where many recommended it.

I want to make it clear that the last thing i want to do is hurt my dog or make him more reactive to dogs or make things worse then they already are which is why i am on here asking for help on how to use e collar to make his stop being reactive to dogs. 

This morning when i did the training with the ball and e collar i made great progress. When i took him out the second time i did not even put e collar on him and worked on having him stay put while i throw the ball and he did it 100% so the e collar training session transferred over very well and i managed to do something i had not been able to achieve before. 

At this point i have canceled the prong collar order. 

I will not be using e collar anymore until i have read the book recommended to me by Muskag. I have already read Lou Castle material and will read over it again. I also open to watch any videos and read any other books recommended by anyone else on here about using e collar.

Having said all this i am a little frustrated at the fact that when i made the thread everyone recommended either prong collar or e collar and now everyone seems to be freaking out and against it. 

I want to reiterate that LAST THING i want to do is hurt my dog or make things worse. I love my dog and the reason i am putting in so much time and effort on working with him is for him to be able to enjoy walks and be able to eventually meet other dogs in a calm and collective manner.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

1800CoolGuy said:


> . I have already read Lou Castle material and will read over it again.


I wouldn't bother with this.

Lou Castle's "method" is a compulsive type of training... which is what the _experienced_ posters in this thread, like slamdunc, are advising you against.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I wouldn't bother with this.
> 
> Lou Castle's "method" is a compulsive type of training... which is what the _experienced_ posters in this thread, like slamdunc, are advising you against.


I think the whole problem with this forum is that there are many people on here who think differently...ie some favor the use of e collars and and prong collars and some are totally against it and favor training using clickers/food instead. This makes it hard for someone who is new to the forum to know who to trust and listen to. 

When i was doing research on e collars majority of people on this forum were recommending Lou Castle's material for training. These were not my threads but threads i stumbled upon and now you are saying that i should ignore that?

Very frustrating to constantly be getting different advice by different posters. I feel like i am not going anywhere by reading this forum.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

1800CoolGuy said:


> I think the whole problem with this forum is that there are many people on here who think differently...ie some favor the use of e collars and and prong collars and some are totally against it and favor training using clickers/food instead. This makes it hard for someone who is new to the forum to know who to trust and listen to.
> 
> When i was doing research on e collars majority of people on this forum were recommending Lou Castle's material for training. These were not my threads but threads i stumbled upon and now you are saying that i should ignore that?


There are a handful of people on this forum who truly are experts in training. There are a bunch of experienced owners who have dealt with similar problems, then there are a handful of arm chair quarterbacks who sound like they know what they are doing but actually have jack experience and will advise you to do stupid and outright dangerous things. I suggest clicking on member's links and reading through their past posts to get an idea of who is who and what they know (or don't know) before taking their advice to heart.

IMHO I think what you should do is follow the advice that many other posters here have already said... if you want to use the e collar find a real time trainer to teach you HOW to use it properly. So much of dog training, and e collar use you simply cannot learn online. Timing is critical. You need real time feedback to get the hang of it. 

People aren't objecting to using the e collar or prong... but using it incorrectly 

Personally, I found what you did to your dog to be unfair. You started on too high of a stim. Maybe you need a different collar with more of a range if a level 2 stim caused that type of reaction. I find working level stims for my dogs from reactions like an ear twitch. You threw the dog into a high distraction situation before he was ready to cope with it by throwing the ball - Build up your distractions, gently roll the ball and praise for ignoring. You let the dog get away with a behavior for his entire life and now want to fix it overnight. No need to rush this stuff. You did the equivalent of tossing a 3rd grader into high school algebra class. Unfair and not the most effective way to train.

I've had true dog aggressive dogs. I've had reactive dogs. I can tell you without a doubt that a poorly timed e collar correction while a dog is jacked up will make your problems 100x worse.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

1800CoolGuy said:


> I think the whole problem with this forum is that there are many people on here who think differently...ie some favor the use of e collars and and prong collars and some are totally against it and favor training using clickers/food instead. This makes it hard for someone who is new to the forum to know who to trust and listen to.


I think as voodoolamb mentions above, there is a wide range of knowledge and experience on this board. I think that, more than a difference of opinions regarding various techniques, is what you're running up against here. And you're absolutely right - as a new member it's hard to know the difference between those with experience in training and behavior who are offering solid advice, and those who don't have that same knowledge and experience and are offering advice which may be less beneficial. 

Nobody thinks you're trying to harm your dog. And I'm sure everyone responding is sincerely trying to help. Unfortunately it's up to you to weed through the responses and figure out who actually knows what they're talking about. I didn't read your earlier thread where you said everyone told you to get an e-collar, but I think it's prudent that any time you're considering working with equipment that you're inexperienced with it's a good idea to have a trainer to guide you in its proper use. 

I love reading training books, online articles, and watching videos, and I've learned a lot that way. But IMO, it's no substitute for having someone right there watching you interact with your dog, who can offer immediate feedback and suggestions based on what they see. When I get a new puppy I begin working with it right away based on the dozens of classes I've taken with previous dogs and what I've learned about training and behavior to date. But guess what? Each of our dogs (we're on GSD #4 & #5 since 1986) has been an individual and each of them have been a learning experience. Even though I've had GSDs for decades there's so much more to learn, always. Because something that worked perfectly with a previous dog isn't going to necessarily be the best approach with THIS dog. So I take more classes, I learn new things, and if I need a more targeted approach, I work with a private trainer to fine tune whatever issues I run into.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Before this morning's e-collar training he would start chasing the RV car as soon as it moved and not stop or listen to my come sit or stay command i would have to get up and take the rv car away from him. 

So right now i sat with him in the living room and pulled out the RV toy. 
He had no collar and no leash on and i told him to sit and stay next to me. I placed the RV car infront of us and moved it 20 feet and he just stayed and watched it move. I even had the car come toward us move away and he just stayed and watched. 
After having the car go 20 feet and come back to us without him reacting to it at all i told him "go" and he went and started chasing after it and playing with it. I had him chase it a bit around the room and then told him to come and sit and he instantly stopped what he was doing and came and sat next to me....AGAIN THIS IS SOMETHING I COULD NEVER DO BEFORE. I repeated this 5-6 times and everytime it worked perfectly and he seemed to be having fun as his tail was wigling when he was coming to me after i would say "come". 

So now it seems that this morning training helped both with the ball and the rv toy by using Lou Castle method so i am having hard time understanding why so many are against it. I only had to shock him two times this morning at 7 am when doing training and right now at 8pm he is following commands without having any leash or collar on so how is the training considered a failure. I find it very hard to understand that i should stop using lou castle method and that i need some e collar trainer when all signs point to a successful training occurred this morning.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

You didn't follow Lou Castle's method you skipped right to proofing, Lou would not approve imo. Also not a good e collar. I'm not criticizing your choice in training methods, just pointing out it appears you skipped training and went to proofing. I'm not a trainer can't say it is right or wrong, it's just not Lou's method.


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Apex1 said:


> You didn't follow Lou Castle's method you skipped right to proofing, Lou would not approve imo. Also not a good e collar. I'm not criticizing your choice in training methods, just pointing out it appears you skipped training and went to proofing. I'm not a trainer can't say it is right or wrong, it's just not Lou's method.


I been working with this dog for past 8 months i do not need to start from step one its not like its a brand new puppy. 

Lou Castle step one is to teach recall ... he is good at that. 

- I have thought him how to walk on a leash right next to my left leg.
- I can place a treat or his food infront of him and he will sit and wait for me to say "Ok" before he starts eating it
- I can open the door and he will not walk out unless i go out first and say "come". He will sit infront of the door and wait for the "come" command. I leave the door open when bringing in groceries and he will just sit there watching me... he will see people pass by and he will just watch.
- I have thought him "get back" command if i dont want him in my face while i am eating or watching tv. He will move away from me and lay down away from me. 
- When he is outside or in the house he will come as soon as i tell him "come" most of the time. The only exception as i said was when i throw the ball he will run after it or when he would chase the RV toy.
- I thought him to stay out of the kitchen
- He has never peed or pooped in my house or any of the houses we took him to
- He has played with other dogs with no issues
- He also knows the usual sit , stay, shake etc etc commands. 

This is just some of the stuff i though him how to do...he is a great dog as i said in the title just needs a bit more work on few things that e collar may help with. 

I am sorry but i am not going to be shocking him and retraining him everything with e caller that would be ridiculous.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Then it's not Lou's method. You are using your own method, that's all I am saying. I hope it works for you in all honesty.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Learning to train a dog or use an E Collar from the site is a poor choice. IMHO


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

So Hudson, our 9 mo old WL pup, definitely had his fair share of sidewalk tug tantrums when seeing other dogs. It?s the worst. There?s nothing more frustrating than a mid sidewalk eruption. 

So I think first, the issue with everyone?s suggestions right off the bat is that from your OP it sounded like your dog had more solid OB (not saying he doesn?t, Hudson was perfect one on one and inconsistently turned into wacko when seeing some dogs on leash) with respect to commands like focus/watch me etc. Hudson still occasionally will have a brain fart/off day and out of nowhere act weird on leash encountering a dog mid walk - his OB is pretty solid but I realized the hard way how important that focus command is. Anyways, your introduction of the e-collar may have sounded a bit abrupt/quick to others on the forum as well - hence the light concern some expressed. 

The whole e-collar thing in general alway will ignite some excited exchanges I?ve found, but really I agree that it?s a great tool when introduced and used on top of a solid OB foundation only. And I?m speaking from experience - I introduced and used it with my last GSD in what I now realize wasn?t likely the best way. Got the job done, but after working with a trainer now I did it all wrong. I actually don?t think I?d ever use it with a new dog without a trainer present just based on the spectrum of temperaments that we know shep?s have. For example, even testing the shock at a level above vibrate for no reason but to gauge a reaction is a no go in my (my trainer?s) books. Maybe I read that incorrectly but your dog cowered under your leg when you did that? That in itself starts off his association with the e collar as a training tool negatively. Hopefully your pup isn?t as sensitive as Hud. 

So if you buy into everyone?s suggestion of working on more solid OB with a prong or flat collar - which I think is more than enough - youll need to get comfy with looking like the village idiot screaming on the street corner and pacing like a lunatic for a short while. I?m half kidding, but really you?ll need to be excitedly giving praise and using tactics to distract like snapping and going in u-turns mid walk to ensure he is able to remain in a structured heel as you work through his issues passing dogs on the sidewalk etc. Once you perfect that to the point that your pup offers focus every time you ask you can move to the phase of ignoring dogs as you go by so that he gets the picture he can?t launch into WWE smack down mode with every new friend he encounters. 

It is a pain in the butt. It?s tedious. Your walks won?t be fun for a little while, honestly It sounds like your dog will catch on quick - so just know it will pay off in the end. The push button dog you?ll get won?t come quicker with the ecollar here - I promise you. And Im living it right now, it just takes time and building on what sounds like a great bond you guys have. 

Not sure what the story is with the remote RV (like a remote control car?) but I?d axe that as a method of training/play until his on leash OB is bullet proof passing dogs/people/whatever on the street and anywhere. If you want to make sure he gets his zoomies in play fetch for twenty minutes a few times a day in addition to walks and training. Adding anything else when you?ve got the leash issue just seems like it can wait. And for you it?s such a common and easy problem to solve it is just annoying because it will involve going through the process of holding him back through a few on leash dog encounters where he?ll create a scene but they will get fewer and fewer if you have that good OB to fall back on. 

I hope I don?t muddy this further by posting and understand I am going through it right now and it?s a work in progress for most handlers with gsds this age. Sounds like you?ve got the right mindset and only want the best for your dog. This forum can sometimes seem like others are chastising or reprimanding a poster for having a dog that doesn?t behave but know it?s not the case everyone just wants to give insight and help. Your dog sounds awesome and sharp - keep the updates coming!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max is a reactive dog. He has made me want to crawl in ditch often through out this managing of his dog reactivity journey. He has taught me so much and always learning more. He is managed but he will always be reactive and that is something that you to have to remember once he is managed. I had to remind myself of this or max would. At this point only slight reminders are needed. 

We Starting with focus exercises, obedience and my favorite - ?leave it ? command without distractions and eventually adding distractions. When max was a baby baby pup he would try to chase passing cars on a leash the focus exercises and leave it ?helped and cured his car chasing. With correcting his dog reactivity all comes to play. Focusing exercises started with food as a pup and found he has much better focus using the ball. When we are at the beach is when I found he will ignore all dogs complelty when we are engaged playing with the ball. 

I use a herm sprenger collar the neck tech.I have used the sport garmin ecollar but that came much later and went to an instructor to help me learn how to use it and Max already knew what was expected of him. I was aware it could make a reactive dog worse so I would not take that chance after all the work we put in. I had no issues with using the ecollar it helped but I found I mostly use it for off leash backup. Often if max is on leash he is wearing only the prong collar.

I remember in the middle of our dog reactive challenges - walking past, at the park (not dog park) a ginormous Rottweiler with his family. The rotty look like he can barely contain himself hyperfocused on Max. Max walked right by acting like that dog did not exist-or if a very large fierce dog barked at him he would look at me not with the usual focus but with his head half cocked and innocent look on his face - like see what a good boy I am. it is when I realized how capable he is of controlling his impulses 

Once your dog is in that agitated state and blowing you off means you were to late in your correction. If he is blowing you off your timing is off or your corrections are not strong enough or sometimes both. Timing is the most important if your timing is right you don?t need a strong correction. If your to late and he is already hyper focused - uturns, zig zag walks , obedience exercises with guided help from you , have them sit and stand in front of them all helps them use their young impulsive brain again and brings them down some notches.

The only way to do prevent them from reacting is to correct the second he is thinking about looking at the dog. A light correction/reminder to remind him to behave with ? leave it? . (Or what word you choose I just have confidence in that particular word and tone we sure practiced it enough)Corrections also have match their energy reminders are light but If starting to get focused or bodies start to get stiff more of correction/connection helps to stay grounded. 

So Very important to read and watch their body language is the only way you will know when they are thinking about being hyper focused and reactive. German shepherds are very smart they will figure you out before you figure them out. They will get your faulty timing down even if it?s off a slightest bit and know when the opportunity window will arrive. So it is so important to get their body language down it takes time. So if you don?t use an instructor or go to a class maybe someone can video tape you and your dog when out.

Some videos below on focusing and leaving it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9oo6tcSxWWg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=asVQYYSWPJc&feature=youtu.be


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

1800CoolGuy said:


> I think the whole problem with this forum is that there are many people on here who think differently...ie some favor the use of e collars and and prong collars and some are totally against it and favor training using clickers/food instead. This makes it hard for someone who is new to the forum to know who to trust and listen to.
> 
> Very frustrating to constantly be getting different advice by different posters. I feel like i am not going anywhere by reading this forum.


Please realize that this is completely normal on an open and generous forum. You ask for advice, people of various skill levels, opinions and experience will offer it, and it's always up to you the dog owner to decide what is right for the dog.

Also, keep in mind that many people who use ecollars and prong collars also use high value treat foods and toys & clickers or marker words to train their dogs (this is also my personal style). There will not be too many people who think 'punish the dog' for undesirable behaviour is the right way to go about. 

I use an ecollar, and while Lou Castle's page outlines a method and is helpful to read in understanding escape and avoidance, I would not go through with the whole protocol. Ecollar training would be best to tackle on a separate thread, step by step. My own take follows Larry Krohn's philosophy, make training awesome fun, (food & toys<--kikopup has free how-to video's on basics) and if/ when necessary add in e-collar/prong aka 'balanced' training, and keep it fun. It's not a fast or easy answer.

@carner thanks for pointing out my 'using fenced and window barking dogs for practice' was overly vague. 

I use stationary (fenced barking dogs) etc. to practice 'ignore the other dog- pay attention to me- and fabulous things happen (or at least you are safe & won't get chased) -- I do not absolutely ever do dog greetings this way--at the very least it's highly unfair to the other dog.

What I do, training method of choice, is walk past or in the vicinity of these dogs at a distance at which my dog can operate and do obedience, or under threshold walk by's. My own particular dog was a street dog, so he needs to learn (has learned) that threatening dogs do not always need to be dealt with (ideally the answer is never) and fenced/window dogs are good examples of threatening dogs that a dog can and should learn to ignore. Teaching calm behaviour is also reassuring to other dogs and minimizes escalation of reactive behaviour.

To the op, there are professionals on board here that are willing to share. Stick around and you'll figure out who is who. I am just a dog nerd and a keener and old enough to have some experience.

*PS, also what @bkernan and at @Jenny720 said just below, like bigly, nice detailed posts, I feel like a half baked ham now.*


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## 1800CoolGuy (Feb 14, 2016)

Ok guys and girls i have been doing some research on trainers here in Atlanta and i think i will go with these guys.

Off Leash K9 Training

Dog Training Services and Pricing: | Off Leash K9 Training, Georgia | Georgia Dog Trainers | Dog Training Georgia | Best Dog Training in Georgia | Top Rated Dog Trainers

Dog Reactive (Aggression) Desensitization Package which Includes 8 private, 1-hour lessons, 15ft training lead, and Off Leash K9 Training E-collar for $900 (or 3 monthly payments of $300).

They seem to be reputable having over 500 videos on their youtube channel. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1.../videos?ab_channel=OffLeashK9Training,Georgia

What do you guys think ?? I plan on giving them a call probably on Monday


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