# Number of litters a breeder has in one year



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

When I started researching breeders years ago, my goal was to find a breeder with no more than one or two litters a year, kept and raised inside a house with a family. When I narrowed the search as the time to get a new dog got closer, the small breeders I found didn't have any available puppies. If they had a litter, they were presold. One breeder said her dogs were promised two years in advance.

So I expanded my range and found some very well respected breeders have as many as 200 puppies a year. I would have called that a puppy mill, except other than quantity, they did everything else right, even down to whelping and keeping litters indoors.

I also noticed that people who say in theory that small breeders are best, tend to also write them off as "hobby breeders" or BYBs. 

I found one breeder whose dogs I liked but based on watching the website for a few years, and seeing as many as 5 litters listed at one time every two months, that would be 30 litters a year. Then I noticed the breeder started hiding litters. There would be a notice of an upcoming litter but as soon as puppies were born or just before, the pictures disappeared.

Then I visited a breeder who people said had too many puppies, and after questioning closely, found that this breeder has maybe 10 litters a year at the most, but that not all planned breedings take and not all litters are huge. This breeder also keeps most dogs after they are retired by age 5, which is why visitors see a lot of adult female dogs. If a dog is very good at dog sports, IPO, or similar and should go to a working home, then the breeder lets the dog go, but is very picky about where they end up.

This is getting long. My question is, how many litters a year can a breeder comfortably handle and how important should that be when selecting a kennel? I'm not in the market for a new dog, but I am still researching for the next one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think the answer is that it depends. How much help does the breeder have? Is it one person? A family? A training / boarding facility? 



LuvShepherds said:


> When I started researching breeders years ago, my goal was to find a breeder with no more than one or two litters a year, kept and raised inside a house with a family. When I narrowed the search as the time to get a new dog got closer, the small breeders I found didn't have any available puppies. If they had a litter, they were presold. One breeder said her dogs were promised two years in advance.
> 
> So I expanded my range and found some very well respected breeders have as many as 200 puppies a year. I would have called that a puppy mill, except other than quantity, they did everything else right, even down to whelping and keeping litters indoors.
> 
> ...


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

I think that question will always depend on the breeder individually.

The breeder I went with has a litter about every 7-8 weeks on average but has many dogs so she isn't just breeding the same dam over and over. She has a large ranch where the kenneled dogs have their own run and very large area. All the dogs seemed happy and well balanced, not overly hyper to see visitors, jumping and barking etc, but still friendly and social. The day we met her, she told us that between her dogs and dogs she is boarding/training, she had about 50 dogs on site. Totally calm and under control. Everything clean and organized. The fact that everything was so under control made me feel really comfortable with it. In fact, it was refreshing after the kennel I had been to previously, where the breeding dogs were locked up in a small area, barking excitedly and completely uncontrolled in their behavior, to see humans. I had no idea how to gauge the temperament of the parents when they might have just been excited for visitors because they are lacking in human interaction, or maybe they were just high strung dogs - who knows?

The puppies from the breeder I used spent most of their days in an ex pen on a grassy lawn with lots of shade, and coming out frequently to run around and socialize with other dogs and all the visitors who come through the kennel. They looked SUPER happy the two times I visited.

So under these circumstances I found the number of litters per year to be fine as it was clearly not a puppy mill, all the dogs were being well cared for, and I considered the breeder to be very experienced because of it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

The problem with breeders who have a ton of litters, is that it is impossible to truly work and know that many females. A lot of breeders with that many litters have others live and work with the dogs. Then again the breeder doesn't truly know all the ins and outs of that particular dog. Here is a quote from Max himself. "The breeder on a small scale, one who works with 1 or 2 bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs because he can care for his breeding animals and their progeny to such an extent that he can produce strong sound animals that can be trained" - Captain Max Stephanitz


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think the answer is that it depends. How much help does the breeder have? Is it one person? A family? A training / boarding facility?


It was a wide range depending on the breeders. I noticed a few are getting older and can't handle all the work themselves anymore, even with a smaller kennel.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> The problem with breeders who have a ton of litters, is that it is impossible to truly work and know that many females. A lot of breeders with that many litters have others live and work with the dogs. Then again the breeder doesn't truly know all the ins and outs of that particular dog. Here is a quote from Max himself. "The breeder on a small scale, one who works with 1 or 2 bitches, is the most suitable breeder for service dogs because he can care for his breeding animals and their progeny to such an extent that he can produce strong sound animals that can be trained" - Captain Max Stephanitz


That seems to be the case. Also, if a breeder titles the dogs, they are traveling a lot and not around to work with the dogs they are breeding. They are too busy titling the next generation of breeding dogs. If someone else titles them, the breeder doesn't have a working interaction.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

I think it does depend. I don't put a hard and fast number on it. I would look more at the relationship between the breeder and the dogs - how much time is spent with each dog both in titling/training and in the day-to-day, what kind of attention goes into the puppies, how clean and well organized are the premises especially where the puppies spend their time, do they have help and support available if needed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> That seems to be the case. Also, if a breeder titles the dogs, they are traveling a lot and not around to work with the dogs they are breeding. They are too busy titling the next generation of breeding dogs. If someone else titles them, the breeder doesn't have a working interaction.


My problem with the small breeder is unless they bought an adult dog already trained, they are betting on a puppy or young dog to be what they want it to be. Sure, if they are a good trainer, they can take a lesser puppy and run with it, put a lot of titles on it, etc., but training is not genetic and will not pass on to the progeny. Do these small breeders, in their desire to remain small, just keep on getting and selling puppy after puppy after puppy and selling the rest until they find the ultimate puppy that they want to use in their small program? 

A larger breeder may own all of those types of puppies at once, as adults, and utilize them to breed various types of dogs for different venues. As stated they may have other people training and handling their dogs, so that might result in a reduced knowledge of their dogs, but don't people really talk about their dogs, even those who don't breed, and get insight on them? I think that those who want to really know their dogs do, even a small breeder. I don't see anything all that terribly wrong with a breeder, as long as they are knowledgeable and have goals, to seek input from third parties on the qualities of their dogs. I don't see anything wrong with an open mind. Of course, it is up to the breeder to take the sum of the total and make a decision that fulfills their goal. No man is an island and I don't think that a knowledgeable breeder needs to do it all themselves.

But what do I know? I am not a breeder.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I've always been told that one of the hallmarks of excellent breeders is they keep back a puppy from each paired breeding, so they know what they're producing in terms of structure, temperament, health (incl. longevity!), biddability, etc. How do these big producers doing that with so many litters with different pairings? Are they growing so big because of all the puppies they kept back and wanted to breed upon maturity? 

Also, from a rescue perspective, some of core virtues of ethical breeders are (a) they screen buyers (and say "no" when it's not a good fit, instead of focusing on getting the money out of the litter as fast as possible), (b) they provide good post-purchase support, as needed (they know where their dogs are, how they're doing, and what they accomplished as adults), and (c) if a placement doesn't work out, they'll take the dog back and handle rehoming so their pups never grow up to be dumped in a shelter. If bad stuff happens and one does end up abandoned, they move heaven and earth to help the dog. This is one of reasons I totally support people choosing to get a puppy from an ethical breeder if adopting a rescued adult isn't right for them -- the good breeders aren't adding to my problems in rescue because they're acting as a safety net for their own dogs. (Unfortunately, many of us in rescue have occasionally encountered GSDs surrendered to the public shelter with AKC paperwork that leads back to high-volume breeders who don't care in the least that one of theirs was in need of help. That's not a function of size, though, as some very small-scale breeders have also balked at doing anything helpful in those circumstances, leaving the adult dogs they once whelped to die in a shelter. It's a function of integrity, in my opinion -- ethical breeders are ethical because they have integrity and care about the well-being of the dogs they bring into the world).

Having worked last year with one of those ethical breeders to get a SENIOR back to her care when it ended up in a high-kill shelter 9 years after she whelped it, I can say that kind of integrity is a beautiful thing. Can the high-volume producers offer that kind of commitment, with 200 puppies a year going out into the world? They'd almost need to hire staff to handle the post-purchase support, follow-up, and eventual rehoming requests with that volume of puppies -- some percentage of placements will fall part, even with good screening and support. Maybe they are big enough operations to have that kind of staff?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> My problem with the small breeder is unless they bought an adult dog already trained, they are betting on a puppy or young dog to be what they want it to be. Sure, if they are a good trainer, they can take a lesser puppy and run with it, put a lot of titles on it, etc., but training is not genetic and will not pass on to the progeny. Do these small breeders, in their desire to remain small, just keep on getting and selling puppy after puppy after puppy and selling the rest until they find the ultimate puppy that they want to use in their small program?
> 
> A larger breeder may own all of those types of puppies at once, as adults, and utilize them to breed various types of dogs for different venues. As stated they may have other people training and handling their dogs, so that might result in a reduced knowledge of their dogs, but don't people really talk about their dogs, even those who don't breed, and get insight on them? I think that those who want to really know their dogs do, even a small breeder. I don't see anything all that terribly wrong with a breeder, as long as they are knowledgeable and have goals, to seek input from third parties on the qualities of their dogs. I don't see anything wrong with an open mind. Of course, it is up to the breeder to take the sum of the total and make a decision that fulfills their goal. No man is an island and I don't think that a knowledgeable breeder needs to do it all themselves.
> 
> But what do I know? I am not a breeder.


It seems like the small breeders either buy breeding dogs that come from good lines and are titled or even co-own with a larger breeder. I found one that keeps back a female from her best litter every other year and then breeds that dog to an outside male. She has been doing this for years and has a line she wants, but even she had to start somewhere. I didn't buy from her because her dogs are over the top drivey and she didn't have a litter when I needed one. She was very helpful, though.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It seems like the small breeders either buy breeding dogs that come from good lines and are titled or even co-own with a larger breeder. I found one that keeps back a female from her best litter every other year and then breeds that dog to an outside male. She has been doing this for years and has a line she wants, but even she had to start somewhere. I didn't buy from her because her dogs are over the top drivey and she didn't have a litter when I needed one. She was very helpful, though.


Over a period of time, if she keeps that up, she won't be such a small breeder anymore.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Magwart said:


> I've always been told that one of the hallmarks of excellent breeders is they keep back a puppy from each paired breeding, so they know what they're producing in terms of structure, temperament, health (incl. longevity!), biddability, etc. How do these big producers doing that with so many litters with different pairings? Are they growing so big because of all the puppies they kept back and wanted to breed upon maturity?
> 
> Also, from a rescue perspective, some of core virtues of ethical breeders are (a) they screen buyers (and say "no" when it's not a good fit, instead of focusing on getting the money out of the litter as fast as possible), (b) they provide good post-purchase support, as needed (they know where their dogs are, how they're doing, and what they accomplished as adults), and (c) if a placement doesn't work out, they'll take the dog back and handle rehoming so their pups never grow up to be dumped in a shelter. If bad stuff happens and one does end up abandoned, they move heaven and earth to help the dog. This is one of reasons I totally support people choosing to get a puppy from an ethical breeder if adopting a rescued adult isn't right for them -- the good breeders aren't adding to my problems in rescue because they're acting as a safety net for their own dogs. (Unfortunately, many of us in rescue have occasionally encountered GSDs surrendered to the public shelter with AKC paperwork that leads back to high-volume breeders who don't care in the least that one of theirs was in need of help.)
> 
> Having worked last year with one of those ethical breeders to get a SENIOR back to her care when it ended up in a high-kill shelter 9 years after she whelped it, I can say that kind of integrity is a beautiful thing. Can the high-volume producers offer that kind of commitment, with 200 puppies a year going out into the world? They'd almost need to hire staff to handle the post-purchase support, follow-up, and eventual rehoming requests with that volume of puppies -- some percentage of placements will fall part, even with good screening and support. Maybe they are big enough operations to have that kind of staff?


The large breeders I found do repeat breedings so they know what they are producing or they breed dogs within the same line and make assumptions. I wish I could mention an example, but it would seem like bashing, so I can't. I sometimes see her dogs on Pedigree Database. But when I interviewed her, I got some conflicting answers that seemed evasive. One of them will rehome a prior puppy but won't take them back, so they can't be positive the dog gets into a good home. The theory is that it's not the same dog they sold, especially if wasn't properly trained, so they are taking back an unknown and possible dangerous dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Over a period of time, if she keeps that up, she won't be such a small breeder anymore.


She doesn't breed every year and she has lot of pets. Or she gives the dog to a close friend or family member and keeps possible future breeding rights.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> She doesn't breed every year and she has lot of pets. Or she gives the dog to a close friend or family member and keeps possible future breeding rights.


The thing I worry about most with a small kennel is the capacity to make good on their warranties in a timely manner. If somebody were to purchase a dog to perform in a venue, only to find a year later that their dog has a health condition that does not permit, and is warranted by contract, how long would a person have to wait until getting another puppy? Especially when they spent a year or so on a puppy that did not meet the needs? I would even question the longevity of a smaller, independent breeder.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The thing I worry about most with a small kennel is the capacity to make good on their warranties in a timely manner. If somebody were to purchase a dog to perform in a venue, only to find a year later that their dog has a health condition that does not permit, and is warranted by contract, how long would a person have to wait until getting another puppy? Especially when they spent a year or so on a puppy that did not meet the needs? I would even question the longevity of a smaller, independent breeder.


Well...with respect to the contracts, breeders can network and partner with other breeders.

I worked with a small, independent breeder but do not have one of their dogs. Fantastic experience and I'd be thrilled with a dog from that kennel, it just didn't work out that way. My dog is not from that kennel because there were more people on the wait list than pups actually born, but my breeder was able to act as an intermediary to connect puppies from other, similar litters with buyers. I bought under the Kennel X contract even though my puppy was actually from Kennel Y, so I would be covered in exactly the same way as if my pup was from Kennel X. I would imagine that if a Kennel X puppy wasn't available, I could probably get a very similar pup from Kennel Y or Z.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> The large breeders I found do repeat breedings so they know what they are producing or they breed dogs within the same line and make assumptions. I wish I could mention an example, but it would seem like bashing, so I can't. I sometimes see her dogs on Pedigree Database. But when I interviewed her, I got some conflicting answers that seemed evasive. One of them will rehome a prior puppy but won't take them back, so they can't be positive the dog gets into a good home. The theory is that it's not the same dog they sold, especially if wasn't properly trained, so they are taking back an unknown and possible dangerous dog.


I've heard that and frankly don't have a problem with it. That's a huge potential liability. I think they should make an effort to evaluate the dog and if they can't confidently place it, maybe euthanizing the dog themselves is an option (versus letting it face an uncertain future in a shelter). But not stating upfront that they will take back any dog, any time, and keep it or place it - not a red flag to me. It doesn't seem reasonable that this kind of across-the-board policy would actually work.

(Not to mention that only the large kennels would be likely to have that kind of space - a small hobby breeder may well live in town and face municipal limits on the number of animals that can live in one domicile, so it seems unrealistic to expect.)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Well...with respect to the contracts, breeders can network and partner with other breeders.
> 
> I worked with a small, independent breeder but do not have one of their dogs. Fantastic experience and I'd be thrilled with a dog from that kennel, it just didn't work out that way. My dog is not from that kennel because there were more people on the wait list than pups actually born, but my breeder was able to act as an intermediary to connect puppies from other, similar litters with buyers. I bought under the Kennel X contract even though my puppy was actually from Kennel Y, so I would be covered in exactly the same way as if my pup was from Kennel X. I would imagine that if a Kennel X puppy wasn't available, I could probably get a very similar pup from Kennel Y or Z.


That is pretty much the set up with one of the breeders I have dealt with, a group of small breeders.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some people can barely manage 1-2 kids, some can handle 6-8 just fine. Some do a great job with 1-2 kids, some are horrid with 6-8. 

It is individual, kind of like having kids. 

Mycobraracr must have had a few dogs, and also must have had many dogs, and in his or her experience, she would not be able to manage a lot because she would not be able to know them all in and out. 

The thing is, everyone is different. Having a bunch of dogs does not mean that you are working each of those dog as the same level. An 8 year old bitch does not need the same training routine as a 18 month old. Lots of people can work and up and coming pup, and an young dog, and a dog in their prime, and still have time to provide care and positive experience for the other dogs that are either his breeding stock or retired dogs, breeding or not. And such an owner might know each of those dogs very well.

It depends on the individual. Talk to them, visit them, look at the sire and the dam and the pups. if you trust them and like what you see and hear, buy a puppy. If you don't, don't buy a puppy.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

selzer said:


> Mycobraracr must have had a few dogs, and also must have had many dogs, and in his or her experience, she would not be able to manage a lot because she would not be able to know them all in and out.



No, I'm not saying I've owned every number of dogs and came to that conclusion. However, I do know how much time I invest in just one dog. That way when someone asks if my dogs are capable of living in a house, I don't have to say "well I'm sure they would be fine living in a house". I can say with certainty that my dogs are house dogs because they live in the house. I don't have to tell people, "I'm sure my dogs could do bite sports". I can say my dogs do multiple bite sports. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dog could be a PPD", because my dogs are PPD's. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dogs could do agility, because my dogs do agility. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dogs would travel well, because my dogs have driven and flown across the country, stayed in hotels and everything in between. I don't have to tell people " I'm sure my dogs could get along with other dogs", because my dogs have been all around random dogs of different shapes and sizes and done large "pack training" sessions. That's what I'm getting at. I know my dogs in and out. My dogs are another appendage of mine. They go everywhere with me. I don't care who you are, that's hard to do with a large number of dogs.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> The large breeders I found do repeat breedings so they know what they are producing or they breed dogs within the same line and make assumptions. I wish I could mention an example, but it would seem like bashing, so I can't. I sometimes see her dogs on Pedigree Database. But when I interviewed her, I got some conflicting answers that seemed evasive. One of them will rehome a prior puppy but won't take them back, so they can't be positive the dog gets into a good home. The theory is that it's not the same dog they sold, especially if wasn't properly trained, so they are taking back an unknown and possible dangerous dog.


I would NEVER buy a dog from a breeder who does not insist on taking her own dogs back. Anyone who could bring canine life into this world, knowing there is an overpopulation and is not willing to take responsibility for that dog for life is despicable.

How could any decent breeder sleep at night knowing one of her precious babies could be heading for the pound?

I fully expect a breeder to have a clause in the purchase contract about taking the dog back.

If a breeder doesn't have the facilities or resources to take her dogs back, she has no business breeding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

mycobraracr said:


> No, I'm not saying I've owned every number of dogs and came to that conclusion. However, I do know how much time I invest in just one dog. That way when someone asks if my dogs are capable of living in a house, I don't have to say "well I'm sure they would be fine living in a house". I can say with certainty that my dogs are house dogs because they live in the house. I don't have to tell people, "I'm sure my dogs could do bite sports". I can say my dogs do multiple bite sports. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dog could be a PPD", because my dogs are PPD's. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dogs could do agility, because my dogs do agility. I don't have to tell people "I'm sure my dogs would travel well, because my dogs have driven and flown across the country, stayed in hotels and everything in between. I don't have to tell people " I'm sure my dogs could get along with other dogs", because my dogs have been all around random dogs of different shapes and sizes and done large "pack training" sessions. That's what I'm getting at. I know my dogs in and out. My dogs are another appendage of mine. They go everywhere with me. I don't care who you are, that's hard to do with a large number of dogs.


The problem with building a breeding program -- not breeding your bitch, but breeding with a purpose in mind, with 1-2 dogs, is that yes, you know those dogs really well. Your experience is very limited though. It is limited to two personalities. 

And, by the time you know what you are producing your breeding stock is retired. You have to rely soley on what others tell you about what you are producing, because if you keep a puppy, you will be over your 2-dog limit. And then you have to wonder whether what the person is telling you about your puppy is accurate. 

Frankly, I think you have to have a balance. You have to have an eye for a pup. And you have to keep and raise puppies yourself. Maybe not one from every litter, but if you are breeding for a purpose, then why breed a litter that you don't intend to keep one from. So if someone sends you a pup back or if your other dog isn't dead yet, you aren't going to breed? 

In order to know what a dog produces, you have to have data. Data is puppies. And, you have to evaluate that data yourself, else how to you help a prospective buyer choose a puppy? You can't read a book and pick a puppy for him. Some things you need experience in order to learn. The only way to have experience is to do. And you are going to make mistakes -- no doubt about that. Not possible not to. If you are too afraid of making mistakes you are paralyzed before you begin. 

I know every one of my dog's personalities. They have all lived in the house. They all travel in the car well. All but a couple have been to classes. Most have done Rally, some have done obedience, some agility, some herding, some conformation. I know which dogs can run with which dogs, and which dogs will have the best time taking them out to run with dogs I don't own -- I have actually done this with many of my dogs. 

You learn the dogs, and you determine for them what they would excel at and enjoy, and you do that. You determine, where they lack and you make a plan to improve that. You spend years watching and working with each one and noting reactions, and noting characteristics of each dog, and you make the tough decisions about whether or not to use this dog in your program. 

Beyond that, you can find those animals that you choose not to use a home, or keep them and train them and pay attention to them always. I have Dolly. She was returned to me when they broke her elbow up. I have never attempted to breed Dolly because I paid attention to her and watched her and made that decision at 3 years of age. She is six now. She is beautiful, nice dog. A couple of years ago I got her CGC completed, but I haven't gone farther with her. But I continue to watch and enjoy her and learn who she is. I have gained by having her. I remember like yesterday who she was in the litter, how she went for the rope with a bone and was the first to get it from the crowd and run off through the tunnel, and how 45 minutes later, she was still the sole possessor of that object, even though there were sometimes two male pups on the other end pulling and trying for all they were worth to get it from her. I remember trying to encourage the people to go for the black and tan puppy, who was more confident but less drivy. But they were bent on the black and red, and I really did not have any solid reason not to allow that choice. It was a mistake. I got her back. She is fine now. But she is one more bitch at my house.

You cannot live with dogs, without getting to know what they like, what they dislike, how they are likely to act if every situation. You groom them, you feed them, you mark their character every day. They trust you completely and allow anything, at home or away. Everyone of them is not trained in everything there is to train a dog in. But they are trained, and without the use of all your little gadgets and tools, because there is no burning necessity for it to happen over night, because there is plenty of experience with training dogs in this line, because the expectations are realistic and age-appropriate.

A breeder has to have more than 1-2 dogs. Otherwise, they are not breeding for the future. They are not going to be experienced. 

You would be better to find a breeder that has a good network of homes for dogs that wash out of their program, so they aren't wasting resources on retired bitches and washed out dogs. And, a breeder doesn't need to own the dog, but, they have to then trust the stud owner completely on the dogs temperament and what he produces -- this is a trade off, and probably in favor of NOT owning the dog, because if you are sticking with your own dogs, then you aren't going to always get the best complement to your bitches. Breeders who can properly home their retired bitches and washouts free up time and resources for their up and coming bitches and their breeding stock/litters. 

That's a trade off too, really. When you've raised a bitch from puppy on up, and she's given you 5 litters, and is now 8 or 9 years old, watching her walk out your door with a new owner, trusting but confused, it will rip your heart out, and some of us cannot do that. You run out of people that you know/trust well enough to give a retired bitch to pretty fast too. So some breeders have 3-4 generations on the property, and can trot out their eleven year old grandmother when people are looking at the puppies. Geriatric bitches do not need much in the way of training or exercise. They just need to be cared for, loved, and wanted. 

People who do not breed really do not understand.

They want breeders who treat their dogs the way they do, even if the breeder has 4 or more intact bitches that may or may not believe the other bitches should live there. 

They want breeders to have very few dogs. 

They want breeders to take back dogs, for any reason or no reason.

They want breeders to hold on to retired dogs. 

They want breeders to be with the dogs/litters 24/7. 

They want the breeders to sell puppies for reasonable amounts, and have only 1-2 litters per year, and help them out financially if the dog has a health issue. 

They want knowledgeable and experienced, without a house full of dogs, or kennels of dogs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

zetti said:


> I would NEVER buy a dog from a breeder who does not insist on taking her own dogs back. Anyone who could bring canine life into this world, knowing there is an overpopulation and is not willing to take responsibility for that dog for life is despicable.
> 
> How could any decent breeder sleep at night knowing one of her precious babies could be heading for the pound?
> 
> ...


I think that's way too black and white. There are wonderful programs that would not exist if the breeder was taking back every single dog that didn't work out. I'm okay with the tradeoff. If only people who could keep limitless dogs were allowed to breed, I have a feeling that would be a great way to torpedo breeding in general right into the ground (unless that's the goal?).

I don't think it necessarily makes sense, and I'm not sure why we (the internet, the world at large) require that of breeders instead of recognizing that it's the responsibility of the individual who buys a puppy to be responsible for that puppy throughout its life.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Sometimes life happens to breeders, too. I'm sure that my breeder would help me find a home for Varik if something happened and no one could take him (wouldn't happen). However, I don't expect her to give him a home. She had a recurrence of cancer and has been fighting hard, while taking care of her dogs at home.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, but, here's the thing. If you won't take a dog back, what is going to happen to that dog?

1. The owner is going to sell it. To whom? For what purpose? Might they sell it to someone who, papers or no papers will use it in puppy mill conditions? Will they sell it to someone who will sell it to a lab to have it doused with perfume or cancer meds -- ok, yeah they use rats and dogs for crap like that, but I would prefer puppies I produce don't land there. 

2. They will give the dog away, list it on Craig's list, free to good home. The fact of the matter is, when people need to get rid of a dog, ALL homes look mighty good. And people who want bait dogs send their wives/girlfriends over to pick up free ones, and really, they don't have to try very hard to make it sound like a good home. Or they give the dog away to some young person who can't afford, or isn't allowed to have the dog. And the dog might be fine until the landlord finds out, or until it needs veterinary care. 

3. If the dog is having behavioral issues, they might give the dog up to an even worse situation, and the dog might end up with some cesar wannabe and on day two of ownership, gets alpha-rolled by this complete stranger, and bites the dude in the head. Now he is a dangerous dog, and gets put down, hopefully by a vet.

4. They dump the dog in a shelter. If we are producing so many dogs that we cannot take them back, if only to rehome them, then we are adding the shelter populations. We don't want to do that. 

In 11 years, I have produced 19 litters with a total of 116, puppies. 9 were returned, which includes one that was gone 1 day, Oscar who they had for 3 days, and a bitch pup that they had for about 11 days and couldn't get her to stop with the cats -- actually the son wanted a small dog. Tori was my brother who had the dog for 4 weeks -- most of these pups can be rehomed quickly. Dolly was seriously injured when I got her back. Gretta they couldn't handle. Nder was 6 months. Dolly I kept because I did not want to make another mistake with her, she did not deserve that, nice girl. Gretta, that was sad. Nder I rehomed at 2 years. 

So really only 6 dogs came back after the two week time frame when I refund the purchase price. And that's actually a lot. I know the dogs, and their stories. CujoII, the retired police officer had to move his wife and himself in with a sister, and the sister was ok with the Maltese, but not with the big dog that sheds. Bailey/CujoII has a home with me. Bear -- I was going to take care of her while they were on vacation. They asked me how much, and I asked around. The going rate was $20 a day, so I said $10. The guy called me and told me to come and get her, couldn't take it anymore. What??? She chewed up a new venesian blind. Huh? Well, the wife told me that they wanted to do a lot of camping that summer, and didn't want to bring the puppy. Bear is a great dog. One of my best. Their loss. 

Here's the thing. If we care about the puppies we produce, we will take them back. We will try and find them another home, or we will keep them. We take the mistake in homing the puppy as our mistake, not as the dog failed. We matched the dog wrong of the people, or the people wrong for the breed, but this is on us. And hopefully, as we become more experienced, we ask better questions, and get a better feel for who has our dogs, and fewer dogs are returned. We don't want to add to the problem. 

The single most important thing that these dogs need is to be wanted. If we know a pup is not wanted where it is, we need to get it back, evaluate it, work with it, place it or keep it or put it down (if that is the right thing for the dog). But we can't leave a puppy that we produce in a situation that is worse than death.

If we care so little for the dogs we produce, then we need to stop breeding. It isn't 50% of the dogs that do not make it in their homes. So, I do agree with breeders taking their dogs back if the owners cannot keep them.




WateryTart said:


> I think that's way too black and white. There are wonderful programs that would not exist if the breeder was taking back every single dog that didn't work out. I'm okay with the tradeoff. If only people who could keep limitless dogs were allowed to breed, I have a feeling that would be a great way to torpedo breeding in general right into the ground (unless that's the goal?).
> 
> I don't think it necessarily makes sense, and I'm not sure why we (the internet, the world at large) require that of breeders instead of recognizing that it's the responsibility of the individual who buys a puppy to be responsible for that puppy throughout its life.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Galathiel said:


> Sometimes life happens to breeders, too. I'm sure that my breeder would help me find a home for Varik if something happened and no one could take him (wouldn't happen). However, I don't expect her to give him a home. She had a recurrence of cancer and has been fighting hard, while taking care of her dogs at home.


This is true too. Life does happen to breeders, and they will feel terrible if they cannot take the dog back. They might die. It happens. But while we are actively breeding, we should be capable to bring back a dog if necessary. It may be risky to bring a dog back when you have young puppies. But we can keep them separate for a quarantine of sorts. We might say Heck No, to rescuing an outside dog when we have babies, but dogs that we produced, they are our responsibility. If we are unable to take them back, they we are really unable to continue breeding at least until we beat the cancer or serious accident, and get our life back together.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Ok, but, here's the thing. If you won't take a dog back, what is going to happen to that dog?
> 
> 1. The owner is going to sell it. To whom? For what purpose? Might they sell it to someone who, papers or no papers will use it in puppy mill conditions? Will they sell it to someone who will sell it to a lab to have it doused with perfume or cancer meds -- ok, yeah they use rats and dogs for crap like that, but I would prefer puppies I produce don't land there.
> 
> ...


Okay.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ok, but, here's the thing. If you won't take a dog back, what is going to happen to that dog?
> 
> 1. The owner is going to sell it. To whom? For what purpose? Might they sell it to someone who, papers or no papers will use it in puppy mill conditions? Will they sell it to someone who will sell it to a lab to have it doused with perfume or cancer meds -- ok, yeah they use rats and dogs for crap like that, but I would prefer puppies I produce don't land there.
> 
> ...


Amen.

Very well said. This should be mandatory reading for anyone even *thinking* about breeding. Thank you for posting this.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know breeders that almost never have dogs returned, I know breeders that have a disproportionate amount of dogs returned. When bred correctly, I find that this breed is strong, resilient, intelligent, adaptable, and able to thrive indoors or outdoors, in the country or the city, with high end training or plain manners training, minus the human emotional expectations of some breeders. OTOH, I find breeders that are breeding outside the standard to extremes, often have dogs returned, often have excuses why their dogs are the way they are when it is genetic, often have dogs placed in shelters because of issues with the dog as opposed to the owners, and as a result are often guilt driven in their expectations of breeders/owners. I have bred many litters over the years, and have only had two dogs returned ( one because owner contracted advanced MS and had to be placed in assisted living, and one that washed out of police academy ) and both dogs were not only rehomed, but were extremely successful in their new homes because they were sound inside and out. With breeders that I know that have high return rates, I seem to always hear " abuse" mentioned in the " reason" why they are returned. Not every case, but FAR to often for me not to believe that MAYBE shyness, lack of nerve, or extreme sharpness of a genetic nature could be underlying reason in many cases. These are the breeders that I would never buy a dog from and shouldn't breed, imo.
But hey, I'm kinda outdated in my thinking.&#55358;&#56596;


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

That is well said by Cliffson

A good breeder should also vet customers and make sure the right pup goes to the right owner. That would totally limit pups to be returned.

Also breeding dogs people want and appreciate would be a big plus.

You don't need to turn into a rescue just because you breed dogs imo.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Breeding dogs people want and appreciate? 

If people read, and understood, the breed standard, especially the part about expected breed behavior, then bought from a reputable breeder, maybe they would get a dog they want and appreciate. A breeder should breed to the standard. A breeder's job, among many, is to preserve and improve the breed. We can't blame the breeder for the buyer's lack of due diligence.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that if someone goes to a well-known, well-respected breeder, they are less likely to believe a problem that they are having with the dog, is within the dog. They are far more likely to expect things to go right from the get go -- not anticipating and eagle-eying every sting bomb the dog blows. They are more likely to have their ducks in a row in the first place, probably having waited for the litter, and excited and feel honored to have their new pup in the first place. They are far more likely to be experienced with shepherds -- a lot more likely to have their expectations realisitic. And if there is a problem, then they are far more likely to reflect what they might be doing wrong or what they might do differently.

And so your pet people, your first time buyers, your people who don't care about blood lines, or papers, or titles, or whatever so long as the price is right people -- they are going to land on your less well-known breeders. They are going to land on your less-ethical breeders. They are going to land on the breeders who are breeding between the lines, and out of standard, and cutting corners for profit, and whatever dogs are convenient. They are going to land on breeders who are up and coming. 

Some of these people are going to be great owners, and will need little help and their dogs will be everything they expect and desire. 

Some of these people are going to have a huge learning curve -- the dog isn't impossible to train, the people are just inexperienced and undisciplined in themselves. And unless they get help their pup is going to fail to thrive in training and behavior. It isn't so much abuse or neglect as inexperience. 

I think more often than not these people are going to believe the issues are with the dog rather than anything they may not be doing right or well. They will be encouraged in this belief by forums, who are quick to say, "genetic" and "bad breeding." And that is what these people want to hear. It is funny that when they do get a different trainer, and they try different methods, and the dog responds positively, no one goes back and corrects the "genetic" and "bad breeding" claims. 

The beauty of it is that GSDs are resilient, and for most first-time owners, they can learn with their puppy. And both come out of the process pretty much unscathed. 

Sometimes life happens and dogs come back. Rushie came back to me. I did not mention him because he was not my breeding, just my training. He came back to me because his owner died. Death is a part of life and it happens. And we take the dog back. I had him a new home, within moments and delivered him the next day after getting him his shots. We do it because we love the dog. You can't have a dog for 4 years, and then say, "it's not my problem, take him to the shelter." 

Breeders do not need to become rescues. But, they do need to stand behind their dogs. And if they won't you have to ask the question, why?


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

selzer said:


> I think that if someone goes to a well-known, well-respected breeder, they are less likely to believe a problem that they are having with the dog, is within the dog. They are far more likely to expect things to go right from the get go -- not anticipating and eagle-eying every sting bomb the dog blows. They are more likely to have their ducks in a row in the first place, probably having waited for the litter, and excited and feel honored to have their new pup in the first place. They are far more likely to be experienced with shepherds -- a lot more likely to have their expectations realisitic. And if there is a problem, then they are far more likely to reflect what they might be doing wrong or what they might do differently.
> 
> And so your pet people, your first time buyers, your people who don't care about blood lines, or papers, or titles, or whatever so long as the price is right people -- they are going to land on your less well-known breeders. They are going to land on your less-ethical breeders. They are going to land on the breeders who are breeding between the lines, and out of standard, and cutting corners for profit, and whatever dogs are convenient. They are going to land on breeders who are up and coming.
> 
> ...


I agree! If I had Simon back as a 10 week old puppy, I would be a completely different handler. I thought I was good with dogs and I am. But GSDs, for me, were above my "pay grade" and I didn't know it until I got custody of one. Chip18 says that a adolescent GSD will let you know where the holes are in your training. Yeah!

I knew it was me and my lack of skills and not the dog. It is still me and not the dog. But, Simon was mine, not some fantastic GSD handler's. Mine to struggle through and not give up on.

And, like many other pet owners on the forum, I got help here and a huge education going out there working with different trainers. I learned something from all of them and Simon was my guinea pig. 

The thing is, all that effort created an incredibly deep bond between us.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Moriah said:


> I agree! If I had Simon back as a 10 week old puppy, I would be a completely different handler. I thought I was good with dogs and I am. But GSDs, for me, were above my "pay grade" and I didn't know it until I got custody of one. Chip18 says that a adolescent GSD will let you know where the holes are in your training. Yeah!
> 
> I knew it was me and my lack of skills and not the dog. It is still me and not the dog. But, Simon was mine, not some fantastic GSD handler's. Mine to struggle through and not give up on.
> 
> ...


It is the challenging ones, that make us into better handlers, and these dogs we grow together with -- deep bonding. I think Mark Twain said something like, a good childhood is hardly worth the bother -- paraphrasing. It is the challenges and the bumps, and the stumbles, and the mistakes, and the fixes, and the work that makes for an awesome bond.


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