# e-collar prongs



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

what length prong does a gsd need for contact? I have a 200ncp that I want to use for distance recall but it only has 3/8" prongs so most of the time it isn't making any contact.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

Based on the advice of our trainer we replaced those with the 1 inch ones -- they work great

Tanya


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

thank you!! my trainer is working right now so haven't heard back from her.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Do you think I can teach myself how to use this colar? With no trainer?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I fried my dog so i wont' touch it again until I have my trainer helps me.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Oh my gosh! I was reading there website and was hoping I could do it alone.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I did it myself and I am still learning and now I am also teaching a few other students how to use theirs SAFELY!

I started with the vibration on my moms GSD to teach her to sit with out hand signals. this worked great. then I moved to very very low levels only to send the dog a stimulation. 

Here you can join Lou castles groupe! I did have have learned alot from his articles plus I get E collar training when I go up to take my Schutzhund Seminars from Bernhard flinks in the fall. Really it is easy and I know my dogs are happier for it. 

E mail lou and ask him to join his group
http://www.loucastle.com


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

No you shouldn't attempt to train a dog with an ecollar if you have never used one before. Get a qualified e-collar trainer to help you.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

If you are unsure and apprehensive then read read read research research research all what you can. I was told the same thing Your dogs don't need an E collar! Well I can tell you trying to retrain a 7 year old GSD to only que off voice commands was hard I practiced every day for 1 year and she still had all the same faults.

I bought my E collar (I was nervous to use it) but I went slow and with the vibration and with in 2 weeks she was re trained sit in motion and down in motion and passed her BH at 7 with DH. Then I retired her to go and live at my moms house.


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## SpeedBump (Dec 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: caviewBased on the advice of our trainer we replaced those with the 1 inch ones -- they work great
> 
> Tanya


LOL even the 1 inch ones did not work on mine. I need to either massively thin the hair or shave a spot.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

I am nervouse I don't want to hurt her in any way. But her barking at the neighbors and running the fence at tehm is making them mad and she won't listen to me to stop. That is all I want it for. she listens close to me but not at a distance.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Does she perceive them as a threat? Or does she want to play?

If she sees them as a threat then have you tried 'meeting the neighbors' with some nice tasty treats?

If it's to play then perhaps them telling her No! and turning their backs on her might work?

If she's not listening then you need to have her on a correction collar and go get her immediately. 

I would be very careful with an e-collar in this particular situation should she take the correction as coming from them and her reacting in a bad way. You need to do more research before you use the collar.

Jax thought the bathroom hurt her...never once did she think it came from me and did everything she could to climb behind me for protection. She still is suspicious of that bathroom.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

> Quote:If she's not listening then you need to have her on a correction collar and go get her immediately.


However this sometimes also creates its own problems. The dog sees you moving fast towards them and learns to move faster away to avoid correction only to head back to the distraction to bark again. 



> Quote:I would be very careful with an e-collar in this particular situation should she take the correction as coming from them and her reacting in a bad way. You need to do more research before you use the collar.


This can be true and I have seen it happen first hand, that is why I suggested you join Lou's group read his articles and ask questions! Better to have a apprehensive attitude then too much confidence and come in zapping.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

A couple of points we learnt:
- if 1 inch prongs are not enough, you don't have color tight enough! It should be pretty tight for a consistent content!
- I would very highly recommend a trainer -- however, there are trainers and trainers! I needs to be a trainer with whose philosophy and approach you agree! 

I found many interesting points are Lou's site, but he believes in "stimulating" even if the dog performs what you asked the dog to (for 6 weeks or so) -- to me it's unacceptable as it "corrects" the dog even the dog is correct! I find it unfair and will never do it, but I'm sure gives you results -- but would you accept that?

- re: the dog not understanding where the correction comes from and being afraid they will associate it with the neighbours -- this is very temporary! It took Xargos 1 session to link cars/collar/remove/me and it took him 3 walks to know for sure that he is the one in control of the situmulation, so that he stopped running away from collar

- I think it's such a humane way to train the dog for the high-stress things -- car lunging, barking (if a real issue), recall (if a real issue). I would not use it with MY dog for anything except car lunging (which he stopped), but I would use nicking if reappears. I use it now to control him running to greet dogs (he loves dogs!), but I only use paging (i.e., no shock, just vibration) and he immediately stops and readjusts. But it's MY dog - he is sensivitive and with strong nerves. If I had a less sensitive dog, I may have adjusted what I would use what for. I would not use it any "nice or should to have" traning, e.g., sit, stay..

- our trainer said the case when it doesn't work is when the behaviour is fear-driven -- so need to watch out for that one..

Tanya


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

yes every dog is different in character and what level works for 1 dog might not work for another in the same given situation. 

There is so many different thoughts, methods, with the E collar and its use. 

I like the thought of the seminar I took ..... As long as your dog knows the commands then give the command give 1 second for the dog to react to your command then if it does not give a consequence. 

For Commands that you want done quickly.. nick nick nick....(Or vibrate) 
For commands you want done with out urgency then nick or vibrate once.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

For those who don't have a good trainer for this and need to rely on self-study -- Leerburg has a long DVD on e-collar methodology and practice.

I haven't seen this one, but from other DVDs and from what I read them saying about e-collars, I would highly recommend -- he has been using them for a long time and has lots of things to say there..

Tanya


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I wish I could find some 1" contact points. There are some on the internet, but shipping costs $40 for a $9 product, and then I'll also have to pay more fees after it gets over the boarder! What a rip off!


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

I was told that Leerburg video should be the last to watch, right now i am looking for all kind of videos available.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't know what is going thru her mind over the neighbors, I think she is warning them to stay away, she is not agressive nor playful but in between. she runs to the fence the second she sees them and barks at them, like an alert. If the walk down their yard she follows and barks at them the whole time, Her tail is high in the air and she prances. 

It just getting old, for all of us.


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## SpeedBump (Dec 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: caviewA couple of points we learnt:
> - if 1 inch prongs are not enough, you don't have color tight enough!
> Tanya


I wish that was true.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Maybe someone can post a pik of their dog wearing the colar correctly?


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

Heidi, 

Our next training session is this Sunday. I'll make sure the trainer checks the collar for fit and take the picture right there!

Will be shooting to post it no later than Sunday evening... 

Frank,

Why "I was told that Leerburg video should be the last to watch"? I haven't seen this video, but I came to have a great appreciation for them. I find his and Cindy's approach very respectful to the dog.. You may disagree with some principles, like often they have individual dogs and not family dogs, but they are very upfront with all of this and you can pick and choose... They live and breath dogs and invest a lot of time in helping others..

Tanya


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: caviewthan Sunday evening...
> 
> Frank,
> 
> ...


I like Ed and Cindy, who have always been great to deal with. I am tickled to say that I have one of their dogs - who I would have paid double what I paid knowing what I know now about her. With all of that being said... the e-collar video is junk. I own it. 

Training methodology evolves, and trainers change. It's just what happens provided you are open minded and keep your eyes open regardless of how long you've been training. You'll always find better ways to communicate and train effectively and humanely.


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: caview
> Frank,
> Why "I was told that Leerburg video should be the last to watch"? I haven't seen this video, but I came to have a great appreciation for them. I find his and Cindy's approach very respectful to the dog.. You may disagree with some principles, like often they have individual dogs and not family dogs, but they are very upfront with all of this and you can pick and choose... They live and breath dogs and invest a lot of time in helping others..
> Tanya


Tanya, 
I was told by a couple of guys here, one of them was Lou Castle. Apparently the approach to the training is more aggressive on their perspective, I have not check on it but I am reluctant to buy it. 
In other video about using the Prong collar, the guy give a serious pulling to the prong and it brakes, I just wonder if the collar didn’t brake what the dog feel on that, I don’t condemn the use of the prong, I have one for my girl and I use it, but not to such extreme and yes she is a slow learner...
I got that and other video and was disappointed, even when he explains a few things the entire DVD’s are like infomercials...
“You can use the Prong collar this way, by the way we sell the best prong collars because we have all the experience and...”
“You can use the 16 ft leash for this; by the way, here at leerburg we sell the nicest 16 ft leash on the market.....”
“You can throw balls to fetch; by the way we sell this device to throw balls made in high quality....”
I wouldn’t say is not worth it, but the benefit is too poor for the investment.
I am searching for E-Collar Training videos right now, for sure i will check on leerburg video at some point, but i want to watch some others before to have more Ideas about the full training.

Have a nice day.


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## caview (Jun 30, 2008)

John and Frank, 

all of the above makes a lot a sense, thank you for the comments and clarification!

Once you find good references on e-collar, please let us all know!

Tanya


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

The best advice I can give is to find a trainer that is focused on low stimulation e-collar training in as positive a way as possible. When it comes to e-collars, there seems to be huge range in what people think - from the "e-collars are abuse and horrible" camp on one end, to the "strap it on and light them up" camp on the other - yes, they actually exist.


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## new_wind (Oct 24, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SyaoransbearI wish I could find some 1" contact points. There are some on the internet, but shipping costs $40 for a $9 product, and then I'll also have to pay more fees after it gets over the boarder! What a rip off!


Did you try K9 Electronics?

http://www.k9electronics.com/product/DE51-CONTACTPOINT/DogtraContactPoint.aspx


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: caview
> I found many interesting points are Lou's site, but he believes in "stimulating" even if the dog performs what you asked the dog to (for 6 weeks or so) -- to me it's unacceptable as it "corrects" the dog even the dog is correct! I find it unfair and will never do it, but I'm sure gives you results -- but would you accept that?


If you are teaching the sit and three times when you stim the dog he sits, how do you know that he's associating the stim with the command? 

If I was using stim at the level that most trainers do, I'd agree that it was unfair. But I'm down where it's only minor discomfort to the dog and so I don't have a problem with "fairness." 



> Originally Posted By: caviewre: the dog not understanding where the correction comes from and being afraid they will associate it with the neighbours -- this is very temporary!


If Ecollar training is done properly it doesn’t happen at all. Most aggression is fear based and I've developed a method that works very well at stopping this. 




> Originally Posted By: caview- our trainer said the case when it doesn't work is when the behaviour is fear-driven -- so need to watch out for that one..


I'll suggest that this is merely beyond your trainer's ability. I train fear based behavior all the time with the Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: caviewFor those who don't have a good trainer for this and need to rely on self-study -- Leerburg has a long DVD on e-collar methodology and practice.
> 
> I haven't seen this one, but from other DVDs and from what I read them saying about e-collars, I would highly recommend -- he has been using them for a long time and has lots of things to say there..


I'd recommend that you not waste your money on the Ecollar DVD from Leerburg. He only uses it to correct when the dog does not obey, as it's been used since the start. He's not progressed from there at all. AND he uses a much higher level of stim than is necessary.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SyaoransbearI wish I could find some 1" contact points. There are some on the internet, but shipping costs $40 for a $9 product, and then I'll also have to pay more fees after it gets over the boarder! What a rip off!


Where are you ordering from that charges $40 for shipping for a set of contact points?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: caview
> Why "I was told that Leerburg video should be the last to watch"? I haven't seen this video, but I came to have a great appreciation for them. I find his and Cindy's approach very respectful to the dog.. You may disagree with some principles, like often they have individual dogs and not family dogs, but they are very upfront with all of this and you can pick and choose... They live and breath dogs and invest a lot of time in helping others..


***** removed by Admin. This would be considered a personal attack*****


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Lou, I just want to thank you for your article about crittering. While crittering is not my problem Dog aggression from my boxer was. I am now following your tips after reading your article and finding it helping alot. Thanks.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Berg WandererLou, I just want to thank you for your article about crittering. While crittering is not my problem Dog aggression from my boxer was. I am now following your tips after reading your article and finding it helping alot. Thanks.


Thanks BW. It's posts like this one that make all the silliness that happens on these forums worthwhile. I truly appreciate it.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Hey Tanya,

You get a pik? If not that is okay just wondering.

thanks.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Your welcome Lou. 

By reading your posts and belonging to your Yahoo forum I can read and understand where I have gone wrong and where I have made the right training methods with the dogs I am working with. 

Currently (Not including my 2 dogs) I am working with another GSD another Boxer and a golden retriever. All these dogs however are just pet training not for competitions.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> What length points work best on a GSD?


One of the reasons that you did not get an answer is that it's impossible to give you one. Without seeing your dog we have to rely on a description of your dog's coat. The words you use to describe it may not be the same ones that we'd use. Everyone definition of a "thick" or "heavy" coat will vary to some degree, depending on experience. GENERALLY 3/8" points are too short for the average GSD double coat. You've already told us that you're getting sporadic contact. Too–long contact points will give you problems of sores on the dog's neck. 

Without seeing your dog we can't tell with any degree of certainty. I'd suggest that you try some that are 3/4" and if they're not long enough go to the 1" You might also try the SCG (Surface Contact Grid).


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