# I am breaking down right now, in tears and confused



## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

So I am in tears right now, my 5.5 month old pup just bite me while I was handling her food... I have started with day one of her being home me handling her food, taking it away while she is eating give it right back, putting my hand in it, picking up kibble and feeding it too her from my hand ect.. all things that I did with my last dog to make sure she didnt become food aggressive, but my new pup is now showing obvious signs of food aggressiveness not only towards other dogs but just now to me as well... 

I had just put her kibble in her dish and I bent down and I was petting her calmly then I put my hand in her dish and removed a few kibbles and as soon as I did she stopped eating then gave me the eye and bit me. It happened very fast, I dont know how to handle a FA dog, dont even know where to begin, I dont know if what I did would make things worse as I snap her collar and told her NO (knee-jerk reaction). So I just put her in her X-pen for now and I am going to contact a woman in my area who is suppose to be excellent in helping with bad behaviors, the only problem is that she takes the dog in her home for up to a month to work with it, and Im not sure that will help or not, and I dont want my pup to lose out on a whole month apart from me while she is still so young.

Another thing I would like to bring up is I really dont think we have bonded  it breaks my heart, she is always so friendly with other people and never really with me... She does not sleep near me at all, she would rather sleep on the opposite side of the room, she doesnt come when called even though we have been training that since she came home, she barely shows any affection to me at all, doesnt like to cuddle or anything... I feel miserable right now... I put hours a day into her, playing with her outside, walking her for up to 2 hours a day, training her, giving her love and attention, I feed her the best food that I can give her ( GO! Sensativity + Shine Salmon formula), she has an abundance of toys and chews all over the place, and yet I still feel that she would rather have nothing to do with me 

Can anyone offer some advice?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I will go look for some links, but what you did is what people who I believe are in the know, will say is exactly the wrong thing to do. However this advice is still given all the time - to play in the food - and people do it. 

It is interesting, I think Packen once mentioned that the dog loses respect for someone taking their food in that way because in a dog pack, the dog that leads the group is the one with the food, and it's the one that is not in charge that tries to come up and sneak food, toys, etc, usually getting corrected for doing so. Whether this theory is true or not, it is something to consider. I know here my oldest dog does not "allow" the others to take things from her, and I let her do it, because she does it appropriately (in dog) and they learn a lesson (kindly). If you look at the relationship with your dog, it is something to think about. She's very unsure of what her place is with you and would prefer if you were her leader, which would be more reassuring. Particularly because I believe she has some fear issues in the past?

Bottom line, I don't do it to my dogs or fosters, who come in often with food issues that do not get worse, and do get better and I would have slapped the hand of someone who had tried to get between me and the brownie I had yesterday!  

You can fix and undo it - *it will probably improve your relationship at the same time* - and you can do it at home with a good, POSITIVE behaviorist helping you there instead of sending her away for it. 

Be back with some links to support and help.


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## lily's master (Jul 16, 2012)

Well I am not sure about the FA part. However if you are having a bonding issue I would suggest NILIF. It would make her rely on you 100% for all her needs and help with bonding. I dont know if it would help with the FA though. 
For the FA I might try to give high value items everytime my hand came near the bowl that way she associated my hand=high value food, like chicken or whatever she really likes. Becasue right now she might be associating your hand with "I gotta stop eating AGAIN cause mom is gonna mess with my food, she even takes a bit of my kibble away" I would be annoyed with someone messing with my food when I was just hungry and wanted to eat, but if they were putting something yummy on my plate then I would be very happy for them to mess with my food. Thats just MHO. Like you said you have a professional comming over so I am sure she knows way more than I do.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

What Jean said. honestly, put yourself in the pup's shoes. You sit down to your dinner and your spouse starts messing with your plate. Stirring it around with their fork. Picking up your plate and then putting it back. EtcEtc. How long would it take to tick you off?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Where are you getting your information on how to train? I ask because it sounds like your training methods are creating problems, like the food aggression. I created a food aggression problem in one of my dogs because I didn't know any better and like you was taking the food away and then giving it back because I thought that's what you were supposed to do. What it actually does is teach the dog that you are not trustworthy or predictable, neither are which are traits a dog looks for in a leader. 

Start over, very slowly. First just let her be while she's eating. Them, start tossing something really good into her bowl every so often while she's eating. As she learns that you are the source of good things you can get closer and continue to do this. Eventually you should be able to trade her the really good thing (I'm talking bits of cheese or cooked chicken, something irresistible) for her food. This could take a long time and for now I would just leave her alone, while you figure out what's going on in general. 

What kind of training are you doing with her in general? How do you feel about her? IT sounds like she is getting some mixed signals from you. Maybe you need to start over with all of her training. HAve you ever tried a clicker?


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## lily's master (Jul 16, 2012)

I have heard that you start with whatever the dogs comfort zone is. You give her food and then back WAY off and take one step at a time twards the dog and when you see the very slightest twinge that she is getting upset, tail down, a weary look, turning her back on you to guard her food, You stop! Take a big step back and mark that spot on the floor. From there you will take a few days of standing in that spot and tossing a high value yummy treat into her bowl. When she gets to the point that you come to that mark and she turns her head away expecting food, you move your mark one step forward, and continue this until you are at her bowl and able to put the high value item in her food bowl without her giving off any signs of being upset. If you move to fast you will know she will start giving signs and you have to move back a step. 
I have heard that this works, I have never had a FA dog so I havent used it.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Here's a video link from a previous thread.

Watch the whole thing. It's interesting:


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dainnera - ha! Yes!

I think you really, really need to leave her alone for a while. Really stressing that. Now is not the time to experiment or try things you read/see - other than letting her be - you need to interview trainers and behaviorists with the question - how do you work with food aggression? You are looking for the methods that we are talking about and a thorough knowledge and answer as to the amount of time it can take, the methods used, the reasons behind them, etc. 

Some links - basic stuff:
Relationship Centered Training | Suzanne Clothier

Preventing Aggression over Food | The Bark
Like Ruth said - you need to give her space now for a few weeks, a month, whatever - time is not the same for them - just leave her alone and let her eat in peace and quiet. HUGELY IMPORTANT:


> To begin, walk by your dog as he eats and toss a treat without stopping. *Do this only 1-2 times during any feeding session and don’t do it every time your dog is eating*. Overdoing it can cause a dog to feel irritable, the same way many people feel in a restaurant when a waiter refills the water glass after every sip.


Again, you don't want to start this yet. Give her some time to breathe and start to trust that you aren't messing with her. 

Here is an article about guarding against other dogs, but I really like the first paragaph: How to React When Your Dog Begins Resource Guarding Against Other Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Find a Clicker Trainer | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

It's usually clear once you really think about it - and I am sure your pup will enjoy NILIF greatly - that structure means a lot to them, and it is still something I do with my nervous dogs - make them do sits and touch and other little "tricks" to relax them on outings, because it helps - and they are seniors now (genetic temperament issues). 
shy-k9s : shy-k9s great information there


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I dont think playing in her food is the best thing. Not sure how much that even helps food aggression. Feed her a few meals a week entirely by hand. But dont mess with her food while shes eating. Would you want someone doing that? I could stick my hand in Berlins bowl while hes eating and take it away etc, but why would I want to? I did NILIF with him and he has no food aggression whatsoever. When a dog is eating, just let it eat. Dont pet it, and mess with it. They say to children, never bother a dog while its sleeping or eating. I think the same goes to anyone of any age. 

Not sure how to fix it, but its definitely fixable. Id just start with some NILIF (feeding one meal a day entirely from hand - make her work for it ie: sits, downs, etc) And the rest of her meals, let her eat them in peace.

As for the bonding, she is still young. My bond with Berlin didnt intensify until recently (hes 9 months old). Just work on some fun bonding activities with her...make time with you the funnest thing in the world. Training her (make sure its 100% fun and positive!) should help strengthen your bond. Dont worry, it will all work out. Good luck with everything.

EDIT: I have been able to take raw bones and what not away from Berlin. Through NILIF he has learned that everything I 'loan' him is mine. The toys, treats, food, its all MINE, that he is allowed to borrow. But it is not his. He knows great things come from me. Things such as tug- the tug is hidden most of the time, I take it out only when I want to initiate a tug sesh with him. Same with special high value treats. I choose when he gets them, and I make him to some work for them ALWAYS. I think NILIF is a great training tool, and if you havent tried it, I would begin to integrate it into every part of you and your girl's day.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mandiah89 said:


> I had just put her kibble in her dish and I bent down and I was petting her calmly then *I put my hand in her dish and removed a few kibbles* and as soon as I did she stopped eating then gave me the eye and bit me.





JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I will go look for some links, but what you did is what people who I believe are in the know, will say is exactly the wrong thing to do. However this advice is still given all the time - to play in the food - and people do it.


We've had NUMEROUS threads here about resource guarding, both how to prevent it and what to do about it after it's already occurred. Over and over again people will promote and staunchly defend this method of messing with the dogs food, even though although it may have worked for them before with this particular dog or that particular dog, it's really not a good way to build trust. And what, after all, is resource guarding about? Trust. If your dog trusts you to be fair, to not just suddenly and randomly take valued things away from them for no apparent reason, there is no need to guard those things from you. 

I never take food OUT of the bowl. I will "own" the bowl and hand feed from it, I will also put yummy stuff IN the bowl while my puppy is eating, but I don't take food out and I don't take the bowl away. Once I give it to them, it's theirs and they can eat in peace. I also train impulse control around food (Susan Garrett's "It's Yer Choice" game), I make them sit until released while I put the bowl down (after I've done any hand feeding from the bowl that I'm going to do), and I play lots and lots of trading games with the puppy's toys, bones, and balls, a few minutes at a time, several times a day. I teach them to bring me things for a treat reward, and then they get back whatever they gave me - bonus! What all this does is build trust, and make giving up things a fun game, so when it comes time that my puppy gets ahold of something they are not supposed to have and that I need to get away from him/her, it's not a problem. I've never been snapped at, growled at, or bitten. 

This worked so well with Halo that she would look for things to bring me - glasses, TV remotes, potholders. She started bringing me her bones to hold for her while she chewed them. She likes to bring me balls so I can take them away and give them back a few times before going off to play with them. And when she stole a 12" long knife off the kitchen counter while I ran to the bathroom for a second, guess what she did with it? Yep, she brought it to me! :laugh:










Here's It's Yer Choice:


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> We've had NUMEROUS threads here about resource guarding, both how to prevent it and what to do about it after it's already occurred. Over and over again people will promote and staunchly defend this method of messing with the dogs food, even though although it may have worked for them before with this particular dog or that particular dog, it's really not a good way to build trust. And what, after all, is resource guarding about? Trust. If your dog trusts you to be fair, to not just suddenly and randomly take valued things away from them for no apparent reason, there is no need to guard those things from you.
> 
> I never take food OUT of the bowl. I will "own" the bowl and hand feed from it, I will also put yummy stuff IN the bowl while my puppy is eating, but I don't take food out and I don't take the bowl away. Once I give it to them, it's theirs and they can eat in peace. I also train impulse control around food (Susan Garrett's "It's Yer Choice" game), I make them sit until released while I put the bowl down (after I've done any hand feeding from the bowl that I'm going to do), and I play lots and lots of trading games with the puppy's toys, bones, and balls, a few minutes at a time, several times a day. I teach them to bring me things for a treat reward, and then they get back whatever they gave me - bonus! What all this does is build trust, and make giving up things a fun game, so when it comes time that my puppy gets ahold of something they are not supposed to have and that I need to get away from him/her, it's not a problem. I've never been bitten, growled at, or bitten.
> 
> This worked so well with Halo that she would look for things to bring me - glasses, TV remotes, potholders. She started bringing me her bones to hold for her while she chewed them. She likes to bring me balls so I can take them away and give them back a few times before going off to play with them. And when she stole a 12" long knife off the kitchen counter while I ran to the bathroom for a second, guess what she did with it? Yep, she brought it to me! :laugh:


:rofl: my favorite picture of Halo. I 100% agree with this. I have done most of this with my dog (but he hasnt brought me a knife yet...) 

Trust is SO important in building a bond - and I think it has alot to do with why you two dont feel bonded. She thinks you are just out there to take her food at any time, to take her fun things, she doesnt trust that your not going to. So naturally, shes going to become protective of all her valuables.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

FA: call her name when she is eating and give her something way better than what is in her bowl, even when she is being aggressive to you. She needs to change the neg. assosiation from your presence near her bowl to a pos. one. Do this three time at each meal time.

During the rest of the day lots of good play, and gentle training so you two will bond and to mold her into the dog you were looking for.

WD was 6 months old when he folded his ear for the first time after I came home. He is 14 months and now really affectionate.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's Halo at about 14 weeks old if I remember correctly - younger than your puppy, waiting to be released to eat, with her food bowl on the floor. 










If she broke the sit, I picked the bowl back up and waited for her to sit again. 

And ditto on what everyone else said about NILIF, I started incorporating it immediately, very easy at first and then increasing the difficulty based on the age and ability of the puppy. I made a sit with eye contact a requirement for everything.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdlover91 said:


> :rofl: my favorite picture of Halo. I 100% agree with this. I have done most of this with my dog (but he hasnt brought me a knife yet...)


Well, I wouldn't exactly call the knife thing a success, lol! Great that she delivered it to me in the bathroom, but bad that she stole it in the first place. :wild:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My advice, as far as the food guarding goes, is the same as everyone else's. But some other advice that might help (and I mean this in the kindest way, honestly) is to stop comparing Penny to Diesel. I know you love Diesel, and that will never go away. I still get teary-eyed when I think of my darlings that I've lost (and it's happening right now, too, go figure, lol) but the way you raise each one is totally dependent on the characters that they are. You know they each have different personalities, so you shouldn't think that what worked for one will automatically work for the other. Be more sensitive to Penny's needs and I think you'll see a big change in your relationship. Good luck


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well, I wouldn't exactly call the knife thing a success, lol! Great that she delivered it to me in the bathroom, but bad that she stole it in the first place. :wild:


LOL. "look mom, i brought you your favorite knife!"  Yeah - if I saw my dog with a knife that big in his mouth - i'd freak! (glad she grabbed the right end of it! ) Its hilarious you got it on camera though.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Honestly, I think dogs should be able to eat in peace.

I only have one dog, he doesn't feel the need to protect his food from another & is relaxed when he eats. He eats in the kitchen & the family is in & out. I'm usually messing around in the kitchen & he's fine.

I have without thinking about it added something to his bowl while he was eating or changed his water, he just keeps eating.

But I don't stick my hands in his bowl or mess with his dish.

Some really good advice in this thread.

I would not be comfortable at all saying you have a aggressive dog...just one that got annoyed with you!

Bonding. Let her become part of your routine, bring her when you can to run errands, get the mail, take the trash down, laundry. I love to take walks/hike so me & my boy would explore together. Check out the knocked down tree, walk through a stream together, both getting wet. Sit down under a tree & share an apple, invite him to lay with me while watching a movie, sharing a little popcorn...you get my point. This is not forced, casual. I also bonded when we started puppy classes. It happens over time.

Good luck & relax!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That knife picture always kills me. Not because it's bad or dangerous, but because I'm so possessive with my Henckel chef's knife - not even DH is allowed to touch it, forget the dogs. Lol!


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> My advice, as far as the food guarding goes, is the same as everyone else's. But some other advice that might help (and I mean this in the kindest way, honestly) *is to stop comparing Penny to Diesel. I know you love Diesel, and that will never go away.* I still get teary-eyed when I think of my darlings that I've lost (and it's happening right now, too, go figure, lol) *but the way you raise each one is totally dependent on the characters that they are. You know they each have different personalities, so you shouldn't think that what worked for one will automatically work for the other. Be more sensitive to Penny's needs and I think you'll see a big change in your relationship.* Good luck


:thumbup: This^ Great advice. I know how it is - when Akira passed, I felt so guilty because I constantly compared Berlin to her. But he is his own dog, his own personality. Yes they are alot alike, but they are not the same. (Mine even shared the same Sire - imagine how hard that was at first!) I was not bonded to Berlin at all at first. He was this whiney, furry, BOY! But, I knew I needed to stop comparing them, it wasnt fair to him. I wasnt giving him a chance. Once I did, and learned to love Berlin for his personality, and traits, our bond strengthened immensely. I know you miss Diesel, I still miss Akira EVERYDAY. But give Penny a chance, she needs your love and you need hers. I leaned on Berlin during a very hard time, and he gave me the love I needed, now I cannot picture my life without him.. 

Understand that Penny is a different puppy. She may not be as cuddly (Berlin wasnt and still isnt - he doesnt sleep in my bed, Akira used to sleep with me every single night), but she will love you just as much.


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I will go look for some links, but what you did is what people who I believe are in the know, will say is exactly the wrong thing to do. However this advice is still given all the time - to play in the food - and people do it.
> 
> It is interesting, I think Packen once mentioned that the dog loses respect for someone taking their food in that way because in a dog pack, the dog that leads the group is the one with the food, and it's the one that is not in charge that tries to come up and sneak food, toys, etc, usually getting corrected for doing so. Whether this theory is true or not, it is something to consider. I know here my oldest dog does not "allow" the others to take things from her, and I let her do it, because she does it appropriately (in dog) and they learn a lesson (kindly). If you look at the relationship with your dog, it is something to think about. She's very unsure of what her place is with you and would prefer if you were her leader, which would be more reassuring. Particularly because I believe she has some fear issues in the past?
> 
> ...


Thank you! 

And I only did this because I was advised to use this method by a trainer I used with Diesel, and I didnt have any issues with Diesel so never thought to read up on it or anything and just implemented with with Penny when I brought her home... I guess that makes me ignorant  never thought I would be causing harm, if I had know I would have NEVER done this... And yes you are right, Penny had some fear issues with walking around our neighborhood when she was younger and with a lot of patience and training she has been excellent on walks for a while now, has shown no fear whatsoever to anything else. I appreciate you finding me some more information. 
I just want a good, healthy, positive relationship with my dog and I really just want a strong bond with her like I had with Diesel


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdlover91 said:


> LOL. "look mom, i brought you your favorite knife!"  Yeah - if I saw my dog with a knife that big in his mouth - i'd freak! (glad she grabbed the right end of it! ) Its hilarious you got it on camera though.


The one I got on camera was actually the THIRD time she'd stolen a knife. The first time, in the bathroom, I was pretty freaked out. She came happily strolling in with the knife, and in my head I'm going "OMG OMG OMG", while on the outside I'm trying to stay calm and relaxed. Fortunately she brought it right to me and I took it away and set it on the windowsill. 

After that we were much more careful about putting not just food up out of the way, but knives too. Well, *I* was - Tom cut up a bunch of fruit shortly thereafter, put it in the fridge, and left the paring knife on the counter. I was walking towards the kitchen and saw her come out with it, handle in her teeth, blade pointed straight out in front of her. She almost stabbed me in the thigh with it while I was trying to take it away. 

This last time I found her laying on the living room floor chewing on the handle, and the camera just happened to be nearby so I grabbed it and got off a couple quick shots.

ETA: Blanketback, mine are Henckels too!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ETA: Blanketback, mine are Henckels too!


Lol, that explains everything - once you've used a Henckel, you can never go back. Smart Halo, great taste in knives!


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

And yes I know I have to stop comparing Diesel and Penny, and yes it is unfair to her, im just finding it hard... I really wasnt even ready to get another dog but she was a gift from my family who thought that getting me a pup "just like Diesel" would solve the depression I was going through after the incident. 

I have been training NILIF since I brought her home, and the behaviorist just left and told me that she is NOT FA but she is food possessive, she brought her well mannered dog over and left it in the car, Penny did not show any signs of aggression with the food to either me OR her when it was just us but she would pretty much do anything to get to the food and wolf it down as fast as she could and not wait for her food (something I need to work on, but she is so stubborn and I have to learn to stand my ground and not give in and not let her eat until she backs off and waits for her food). Then she brought her dog Amber in and it was clear that she is getting FA with other dogs as she froze when amber came near and then snapped at her and us if we were too close with amber... I spoke to my sister who was upstairs during the incident when Penny bit me and she told me that my moms dog was passing behind us (something I didnt notice)when this happened... 

I will start hardcore NILIF now and I will also stop messing around with her dish as this was the first incident that I now believe after what my sister told me and what she displayed with the behaviorist and her dog, but the behaviorist did say that she could become human FA as well if we dont nip this in the bud. 

Thanks everyone, I will work with Penny and this behaviorist (she litterally lives down the street) to make sure she gets out of being FA with other dogs and stops being so possessive with her food with humans... I will also try my hardest to stop comparing the dogs, I know that wont help..


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> But some other advice that might help (and I mean this in the kindest way, honestly) is to stop comparing Penny to Diesel. I know you love Diesel, and that will never go away. )


Sadly, I noticed this from the first posts on the forum.

I know Penny was a gift, and that might not have been the best way to start the relationship. Especially since it was literally weeks after the horrible tragedy of losing Diesel, and you were not allowed a chance to grieve and attempt to get over what happened.

You were not able to come to terms with what happened, nor mourn, and this dog was presented to you without your consent or your having any input or possibility of choice.

Diesel was a well bred dog, Penny is not, per your posts. From what I've read, Diesel had a really great temperament and was an example of what a German Shepherd should be.
Poor Penny will never be Diesel, and she will fall short of your expectations constantly. 
Many of your replies to forum questions are about Diesel, and I didn't even know you had another dog for quite a while. 

This isn't said in criticism. It blew my mind about the gift thing, and I honestly, had that happened to me, would probably be feeling and reacting exactly as you are.
In addition, I would've wanted to pick my own dog to "replace" the lost one. I put replace in quotes because in reality, one dog will never replace another, since they are all individuals and will never be identical to what you had before.

I say this in reply to your admission about bonding issues. I hope you can manage to bond with this dog, and I certainly understand why you haven't been able to. And now that she has bitten you, I can understand how even more difficult this will be.
Sending big hugs from sunny Florida.

PS-- I have always gone to his bowl and added even better things than he was eating, to make sure that he doesn't get possessive of his food bowl. Made sense to me to do it that way.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Another thing that someone may have already suggested about the bonding is to try your hardest not to WORRY about your bond with her. If she sleeps on the other side of the room and you feel that worry "she doesn't like me, she doesn't want to be by me" begin to come on, they can sense that. If you feel like she doesn't think you're the best thing ever and it makes you feel bad, she can sense that. However, if you look at these things like "I have such a curious puppy she's happy with everything around her" you will see her traits as being positive things and I firmly believe once you start to think all the things she does are good, she will feel your positive energy and enjoy your company more.

As for food aggression, I agree with most the things stated. 1) Never take things out of the bowl, 2) Don't bother her by petting her, and 3) Don't remove food as a punishment if she snaps at you. 
I would also just take high value things and drop them nearby, or sit on the ground about 10 feet away and call her name and show her the stuff (like chicken) and then when she comes praise her and say "go eat" to let her finish. I did this with my puppy and also do the sit->wait before every meal. 

The first week I had Lara I gave her a raw bone. It was like 2 days after I had her,and you know what? She growled at me when I tried to take it. I was so worried about food aggression, I went in the freezer and found a bone twice the size and traded with her / held it in my hand etc. When I took it that night I gave her a hunk of chicken, she now gives up things willingly for me too most the time because it's in her best interest. 

Don't be shy or scared about working with the food aggression either, be confident. Think of the bite as a miscommunication, you were trying to be nice and hand feed her food, she took it as you were taking her stuff. You guys can learn to communicate intentions! She will catch on very quickly, and good luck :]


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

About bonding, Fiona is super independent. I wanted her to be like her sister, Gilda, who will crawl up in to my mom's lap while watch tv. I want Fiona to sleep with me, but as soon as I turn off the light, she jumps off the bed and go sleeps outside or on the couch. I worried that Fiona and I are not bonded. But Fiona is an escape artist. She has 3 times to escape and run away. Even tho she knew the leash fell off her collar, she did not run off. She waited for me to hook it on again. That is how she shows her love, obedience. Some dogs are not affectionate in the way we expect. She will come and kiss me and want pets after eating. She is saying thank you for my dinner.
On Monday I had an epidural for chronic neck pain. The doc said rest until tomorrow. That meant no playing, walking, etc with Fiona. She was so good about us having to be cooped up in the house all day. That is how she shows her love. I took her on an hour long walk this morning. Coming home she looked at me and smiled. That is her showing love. Penny loves you, she just shows you in ways you have not noticed yet.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Dont want to jack anyones thread, but just for clarification on things discussed , What is the difference between food aggressive and food possessive?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Cheyanna said:


> She will come and kiss me and want pets after eating. She is saying thank you for my dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually, that is not what she is saying. Check the "ATTENTION ON DEMAND" section:

Nothing in Life is Free


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Everyone already gave you great advice but I just want to add, rogue came to me very food possessive and slightly aggressive with it. I started by giving her meals in her crate and just leaving her be. Then I fed all meals by hand. (She was about 3 months old) after about a week of that I went back to just feeding her and leaving her alone. Now, if I need to take something from her, I can. Even raw meat. She's not happy about it, and is still possessive (but she's possessive with her toys too) but she's never shown any more food aggression to either dogs or people since that first week I brought her home. 

This can be fixed easily since its the very early stage. Good luck!! You got this 


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## mandiah89 (Jan 18, 2013)

Well the thing is, is I CAN take away toys or bones or other treats, I just tell her to drop it if its in her mouth or off if its not and I can take it not a problem, and she doesnt show any of those signs with the food I give her, infact she doesnt care for the food at all ( GO! Sensitivity + Shine Salmon Formula $85 for a 28lb bag) but she does it for the food my mother gives her dogs, $20 Ol'Roy junk... with other food she is fine, she just gets in this weird mod with that food dives head first right for it and is super possessive over it and gobbles as much as she can... 

I just fed her her dinner meal it took me nearly 10 minuets to get her to sit and stay and wait for me to give her the ok to eat it but its a start anyway Im hoping in a few days I can just tell her to sit stay put the food down (without having to pick it back up a million times) and releasing her to eat it


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## POWERSCOL (Jan 3, 2013)

I apologize in advance, but what does NILIF mean?
Thanks - Keith


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

POWERSCOL said:


> I apologize in advance, but what does NILIF mean?
> Thanks - Keith


Nothing in Life is Free clik the link, great explanation


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## lily's master (Jul 16, 2012)

mandiah89 said:


> I just fed her her dinner meal it took me nearly 10 minuets to get her to sit and stay and wait for me to give her the ok to eat it but its a start anyway Im hoping in a few days I can just tell her to sit stay put the food down (without having to pick it back up a million times) and releasing her to eat it


It will get better she just has to learn thats the rules. I had to spend a long time when I first started teaching Lily to do that to. Now I just ask her if she's ready to eat and she goes to her spot and sits without me even telling her to sit, then I just have to release her.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Actually, that is not what she is saying. Check the "ATTENTION ON DEMAND" section:
> 
> Nothing in Life is Free


That stinker! Thanks sunflower. Operation ignore Fiona has begun. The little brat. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think you have to stop trying so hard. You put hours a day into her training, etc. And she doesn't want to come to you, though you have been working on that since the start. After giving her the food, you pick up a few pieces. You make her sit and stay, and it takes 10 minutes before you can leave the dish down there. 

The not coming bothers me, because that should not be a question. You don't even give that command unless she is on lead and you can enforce it immediately. But if you mean that when you go to train or walk or go potty and get the leash she doesn't even want to come for that sort of thing, that tells me that the method of training, walking, whatever with _this _dog is not working. 

I had a very hard, stubborn, strong-willed dog that I made tons of mistakes with, and basically needed to reach a certain pitch in my voice to get him to do anything. And since I got him at ten weeks, I get my next GSD at just under six so I wouldn't make that same mistake. Yeah, I know. This girl was soft. And I started taking classes with her and the trainer wanted a 30 minute down stay. 

The first day she did it. I praised her, and all was right with the world. The next day she broke her stay, and I corrected and tried again, she broke and I corrected, and kept going and going. By day three she would not stay at all, I was beyond frustrated, and talking in that pitch that I normally needed to talk to Frodo in. 

The next day I went to get the leash and she went to the bedroom to hide in her crate. I sat down and cried. Something was wrong with this dog. I fell in love with the breed when I was 10 years old, and my parents did not share this love with me. Not then. And it was not until I moved out that I was able to have a GSD. I waited so long. And my first try was Frodo, who was simply a disaster. I still had him at the time, but he did not meet the picture I had in my mind for a GSD at all, not looks, not trainability, not loyal companion. 

And now with this next pup, who had the looks and who I loved so much, she was just not training. Was she stubborn? She did it on the first day. And now she did not even want for me to touch the leash. 

This girl liked me fine. Our problem was around training, and I decided that I needed to change everything about what I was doing. I based everything on the premise that the girl _wanted _to please me. Because I firmly believe that she did. And then I changed my methods based on that. 

She got up within the stay exercise. That doesn't please me, why would she do that? What made her do that? That first day, when did I praise her. Did I release her and then praise her? Uhg! I think I did. I tought her that her release is praise-worthy and then lost my mind when I should have been praising her for doing what I taught her to do. 

Errrgh! 

By getting her to work for praise, and not too much praise, we flew to the top of the class. I never did try that thirty minute down thing again. I suppose with some dogs understanding that the person in charge has the right to say that you must stay down for thirty minutes until we allow them to get up, might make them understand that we are in charge. For this girl, that was totally unnecessary because she _wanted _to do the right thing, all the time. By the end of the 8-week class we certainly did a 1 minute sit stay and a 3 minute down stay. We could have passed our CD at that point. And years later when we came to a show and took the CGC test, I handed her over to the person doing supervised separation, put her in a down stay and when I came back the guy said she never moved. So she definitely learned the stay command, and not to release until I gave her the release word. 

I never did any NILIF stuff with her. 

I am not saying that my dog was like your dog. But if she will not come to you when you want to walk or train, maybe you are trying too much, or in a way that is hard for her, is stressing her out. It is worth looking at. 

I do need to be able to take anything out of any of my dog's mouthes for safety's sake. So I used to do that thing with the treat. Give them a pig's ear and then take it away, pretend to munch on it, and give it right back to them. I have never had a food aggressive dog. Does this mean that this works, or does that mean that my dogs just aren't food aggressive?

Well, I have been lazier lately, having more dogs that is really good for me, and I haven't been giving pig's ears much lately. So I have some 1, 2, and 3 year olds who have never been subjected to my give/take away/ give back stuff. And a few months ago in response to some thread, I did an experiment with their food to see if any of them were.

I do not make them sing for their supper. Some are in their kennel when I dump the food in their dish, and some are out in the yard, and I will open the kennel and they will make a bee-line to it. Feeding time is the highpoint of everyone's day. You would think I starve them all. But this day, I made it a point that after I opened the gate and they were eating, I wanted to move their dish 2 feet, and set it back down. None of the dogs had any trouble with that at all.

So my conclusion is that my dogs are simply not food aggressive. Playing with their food did not make sure they were not food aggressive. Nor did it make them food aggressive. 

_ *** Post truncated by ADMIN - post is way over 1000 words *** _


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

One strong tool for people who are losing there stability with there dog is too totally ignore the dog and act as if it doesn't exist. Give it less food, short walks with no frills. No rubs, affection, simply ignore it. Live your own live for a while and don't be catering to the needs of a dog. It'll empower any dog owner. The dog will go probably go into a slumber and wonder why did the servant stop serving.


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## POWERSCOL (Jan 3, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Nothing in Life is Free clik the link, great explanation


Thank you very much.

While it might not help here, I have not had this issue with Emma. I can give and retrieve, play with her food and bones at will. However, I do free feed. I know there is a lot of disagreement her on this, but there is Zero Aggression on the need to feed (no hunger drive having to waite) She knows the food is always there. Maybe that makes it less valuable. I do track how much she eats as I measure what I put in and track. Her eating is normal for her eight and age. Usually she only eats three times during the day too.

When her dish is empty, she barks for more and I respond. This is for both food and water. So far there is no weight issue, but I weight her often. With her bones and toys, I work with the give command. Sometimes I trade, sometimes not. I always praise. I might get a wine, but I correct, or talk to her (wine back). This can get very amusing too.

With her bones (her prize possessions that she will hide around the house ), I play bone hockey on the kitchen floor sliding it around. In this game it is give and take so she learns it is a good thing to give up for more play. I do leave it with her at the end of the game, then clean the kitchen floor.

I do want to thank folks for the advice on the come command, as she does need work on this.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

mandiah89 said:


> So I am in tears right now, my 5.5 month old pup just bite me while I was handling her food...
> Another thing I would like to bring up is I really dont think we have bonded  it breaks my heart, she is always so friendly with other people and never really with me... She does not sleep near me at all, she would rather sleep on the opposite side of the room, she doesnt come when called even though we have been training that since she came home, she barely shows any affection to me at all, doesnt like to cuddle or anything... I feel miserable right now... I put hours a day into her, playing with her outside, walking her for up to 2 hours a day, training her, giving her love and attention, I feed her the best food that I can give her ( GO! Sensativity + Shine Salmon formula), she has an abundance of toys and chews all over the place, and yet I still feel that she would rather have nothing to do with me


A direct quote from a poster in the 60's thread is apropos: "Humanization over the years, I think is the most damaging thing to our dogs. They were better behaved because we weren't inflicting all our neuroses on them or throwing unnecessary luxuries at them in exchange for pure and simple time with us and love." (this quote is probably apropos for 80% of the "problem" posts in this forum.)


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Ocean said:


> A direct quote from a poster in the 60's thread is apropos: "Humanization over the years, I think is the most damaging thing to our dogs. They were better behaved because we weren't inflicting all our neuroses on them or throwing unnecessary luxuries at them in exchange for pure and simple time with us and love." (this quote is probably apropos for 80% of the "problem" posts in this forum.)


Yes, anthropomorphization (sp?) is rampant.
The OP is over the top and needs to back off and respect the dog's separateness. Start over and use NILIF to gain the respect and trust of the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What I think got cut out of my post was that I think the OP should just feed the dog in its crate for a while. Let the dog relax about the food. I would not make the dog sit or force it to wait until I release it to eat.

There is really nothing wrong with doing that. You could teach your dog to do doggy push ups before they go outside to potty too, but the dog is having a problem with house training, or submissive urination, you really don't want to focus on the mistakes. 

Manage the situation by making it impossible for other dogs to be hanging around the food dish and at the same time, up the training in other areas to build the bond. In 3 months or 6 months or longer, you can do all the sing for your supper routine with the dog, but for right now, I think that that is probably as bad as playing around in the food dish. 

There is so much stress right now in the neighborhood of the food, that this dog bit its owner. I would, without any fan fare, put the food down in the crate, and then leave the room, and keep the other dogs out of there while the dog ate. 

I really don't like that right after a bite, the owner spent over 10 minutes trying to get the dog to do something before putting that dish down. I am surprised that no one else feels that way.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually I agree with Sue's post above.

Why do people insist on messing with a dog's food and then don't understand why it backfires and they or someone else, gets bit because now the dog is 'guarding' his food? 

I have had quite a few dogs over the years, gsd's for the main part, and never have had a food aggressive dog. I've never messed with their food, they are left alone to eat, heck, multiples eat together in the same room and don't bother each other's food space.

I have never had a problem taking food / bones, whatever away from them if need be, nor has anyone else..

I think to many start messing with their food with good intentions, and it ends up backfiring. 

Crate the dog while he eats, let him cool down for a week or so and not be on high alert someone is going to take his/her food away...start over, 

And no, I don't think after the bite, the OP should have pushed the dog to wait 10 minutes before giving them back the food because they didn't do something. This just adds to the stress of the incident.

Ya got bit, walk away, leave her alone..


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