# Male shows no interest



## taxidriver20

My bitch has been in heat for about 8 days now she is bleeding and her vulva is quite swollen. The problem is my 2.5 yr old male does not seem too interested,he does lick her pee and occasionally licks her. I know she is not ready for him yet by her response (growling and pulling away) when he licks her. My question: is this normal? Will his interest spike in the next week or so? This is his first breeding so any helpful tips would be greatly appreciated!


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## selzer

taxidriver20 said:


> My bitch has been in heat for about 8 days now she is bleeding and her vulva is quite swollen. The problem is my 2.5 yr old male does not seem too interested,he does lick her pee and occasionally licks her. I know she is not ready for him yet by her response (growling and pulling away) when he licks her. My question: is this normal? Will his interest spike in the next week or so? This is his first breeding so any helpful tips would be greatly appreciated!


If you pet her down by the base of her tail, does she hump her tail up, flag? She could be early, she could be late, is she a maiden bitch? 

Some bitches will growl and pull away the whole time they are in heat. Some will bite the stud, and if you have one that is not very confident or a low sex drive, that can ruin your dog, so be careful. Some dogs do not mind being handled, while others want to wait for you to mind your own business. 

I usually use an outside stud dog, but my first few litters were with my own dogs. It is a lot easier if you have more than just one person to facilitate.


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## taxidriver20

No she is not flagging yet,she is not a maiden bitch she has already had 1 litter with another male,she was bred rather late into her heat cycle last time and produced only one pup.Her progesterone level last breeding was an 8 and she was bred once. I bought this male from Germany just so i could have a good stud dog yet he shows little interest. He is the one I am worried about!! It is only about 8 or 9 days into the heat cycle am I worrying to soon? Also she was very willing last breed with no growling or biting!


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## KatsMuse

taxidriver20 said:


> No she is not flagging yet,she is not a maiden bitch she has already had 1 litter with another male,she was bred rather late into her heat cycle last time and produced only one pup.Her progesterone level last breeding was an 8 and she was bred once. I bought this male from Germany just so i could have a good stud dog yet he shows little interest. He is the one I am worried about!! It is only about 8 or 9 days into the heat cycle am I worrying to soon? Also she was very willing last breed with no growling or biting!


What is her progesterone level at right now? IMO, Might be too soon into her cycle.


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## cliffson1

Is he a strong dog or a soft dog?


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## taxidriver20

Unfortunately he is a big teddybear......so ya a soft dog scared of his own reflection in the mirror!! He did try to mount once when she first came into heat but she turned him away! He licks her pee and they do play and he usually wins in the playfighting! I dunno I paid a lot of money for this dog,he came directly from Germany. I asked for a good stud and protection dog! Looks like I mighta got screwed!!


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## taxidriver20

She is now flagging him and he just stands there like a dope! I am NOT a happy camper!!! He is only 2 yrs old but I would think the instinct woulda kicked in!!


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## qbchottu

Have you had his sperm tested?


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## qbchottu

How old was he when you bought him over from Germany?
Did he come over titled and rated or is he a green dog?


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## Shaina

Yikes, a dog that is "scared of his own reflection" is not a dog that I would breed to my female.


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## taxidriver20

He is 2.3yrs old he is papered and has 2 titles sg show rated and a bh title! He has a great temperament and he is a very good looking dog. When I bring him out he is not dog aggressive but he does not back down either. His pedigree is second to none on paper. I have only had him a couple of mths so he may still be adjusting. He seems to be showing a little more interest tonight! I have had a diaper on my female unless they were outside, I took it off for the first time in the house and he tried to mount but was unsuccessful. Should I try and help him, there is another person here who can hold the bitch!


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## KatsMuse

taxidriver20 said:


> He is 2.3yrs old he is papered and has 2 titles sg show rated and a bh title! He has a great temperament and he is a very good looking dog. When I bring him out he is not dog aggressive but he does not back down either. His pedigree is second to none on paper. I have only had him a couple of mths so he may still be adjusting. He seems to be showing a little more interest tonight! I have had a diaper on my female unless they were outside, I took it off for the first time in the house and he tried to mount but was unsuccessful. Should I try and help him, there is another person here who can hold the bitch!


Have you had them tested yet? How about For Brucellosis ?


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## selzer

taxidriver20 said:


> He is 2.3yrs old he is papered and has 2 titles sg show rated and a bh title! He has a great temperament and he is a very good looking dog. When I bring him out he is not dog aggressive but he does not back down either. His pedigree is second to none on paper. I have only had him a couple of mths so he may still be adjusting. He seems to be showing a little more interest tonight! I have had a diaper on my female unless they were outside, I took it off for the first time in the house and he tried to mount but was unsuccessful. Should I try and help him, there is another person here who can hold the bitch!


Well, I really don't know. A little bit ago, you felt you got screwed because you bought a dog to be a good stud and protection dog, you said he is afraid of his own shadow, I just don't know whether you should try and help him achieve a breeding, or suggest that you keep him a while longer until you feel more confidence in the dog. 

I mean, even if the dog is top lines, and has awesome credentials, if you get it home and it really does not look like an asset to your breeding program, in structure or temperament, well then, you should not breed the dog.


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## qbchottu

Did you get a sperm count BEFORE he left Germany? Reason I ask is that it is not uncommon for Germans to sell their sterile or reproductively challenged males to foreigners for an easy buck. I recently had a friend get screwed on a dog he purchased for over 15k. Dog ended up being sterile, probably due to an infection. He only found out after the purchase and after several missed breedings. 

I would get this dog's sperm and testosterone tested if you can't get him to mate properly. This is all after the fact, but I'm not sure why you imported a "stud" dog that is unproven. If I'm importing a male to use as a stud, I would be sure to get a proven male and I would be VERY sure to get his sperm tested by an impartial vet before any money changes hands. 

Some dogs will need help mating the first time. Have you helped a male before? It can help to have someone calm the female and hold her steady so he can enter properly.


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## cliffson1

There's a reason he has a BH !


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## qbchottu

I agree ^^

I would think a 2+ year old male from Germany would have at least a 1 by now if he was sold as a breeding dog.


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## KatsMuse

O my.....


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I mean, even if the dog is top lines, and has awesome credentials, if you get it home and it really does not look like an asset to your breeding program, in structure or temperament, well then, you should not breed the dog.


Exactly. I would never breed a dog who is "scared of his own shadow".

Why doesn't the dog have a SchH title?


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## taxidriver20

I am kinda new to this I got the dog thru **mane removed by Admin**! I researched the owner and called many references before I bought! He even showed me a video of Olek(the dogs name) doing bitework on a sleeve however i did notice after the fact that the trainer was using a whip like crop and touching his front feet but he did look good going at the sleeve! When i tried with a trainer he showed little interest??? I am ready to go and pay to breed my bitch cause she is also second gen German lines and has an unbelievable drive temperment and is smart as they come!! She is also gorgeous! I am almost at my wits end with him really dont want to spend all sorts of $$ at the vets running umteen tests! I know Lufthansa made him get vet checked b4 he was allowed on the plane and my vet gave him the once over and he checked out ok!!


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## KatsMuse

taxidriver20 said:


> I am kinda new to this I got the dog thru **name removed by ADMIN**! I researched the owner and called many references before I bought! He even showed me a video of Olek(the dogs name) doing bitework on a sleeve however i did notice after the fact that the trainer was using a whip like crop and touching his front feet but he did look good going at the sleeve! When i tried with a trainer he showed little interest??? I am ready to go and pay to breed my bitch cause she is also second gen German lines and has an unbelievable drive temperment and is smart as they come!! She is also gorgeous! I am almost at my wits end with him really dont want to spend all sorts of $$ at the vets running umteen tests! I know Lufthansa made him get vet checked b4 he was allowed on the plane and my vet gave him the once over and he checked out ok!!


Brucellosis testing is important in breeding... Did you do that? That's a specific blood test...not a ' once over'. never mind... It's your dog(s). hope it turns out ok for all of you


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## qbchottu

You can make any dog look good in a video made to sell him 
It's a little troubling that you cannot get him to perform on the schutzhund field when he was sold to you as a "protection dog". Was this dog sold on any kind of guarantee?

If you truly did spend a lot of money on this dog, why not get the tests done? Or have you given up on this dog as a stud? Personally, based on your descriptions, I would not force a breeding out of this dog because I like driven dogs and a dog without the drive to mate would concern me. But then again, you might have a different goal with your breedings. 

Getting a general vet checkup will tell you nothing about a dog's sperm count or testosterone levels. These tests will have to be requested and ordered. When people are trying to sell you something, *especially when you are new to the game*, do your homework and make sure to cover your back. Was this dog sold with any guarantee? If so, I would get the dog tested to see if you can make a case with the seller.


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## Freestep

taxidriver20 said:


> When i tried with a trainer he showed little interest???


Why do you want to breed this dog? Simply because you paid a lot for him? Do you actually know anything about dog breeding?



> I am ready to go and pay to breed my bitch cause she is also second gen German lines and has an unbelievable drive temperment and is smart as they come!! She is also gorgeous!


Does she have any titles?


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## taxidriver20

KatsMuse said:


> Brucellosis testing is important in breeding... Did you do that? That's a specific blood test...not a ' once over'.




No I have never had this test done what is it?


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## taxidriver20

Freestep said:


> Why do you want to breed this dog? Simply because you paid a lot for him? Do you actually know anything about dog breeding?
> 
> 
> 
> Does she have any titles?




She has no german titles she has american obedience and is currently in sch 1 training where she is excelling!!


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## qbchottu

taxidriver20 said:


> No I have never had this test done what is it?


I think you have a lot to learn before jumping to breeding.

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/brucellosis_canis.pdf
Merck Veterinary Manual

I would be less concerned with the male having Brucellosis since he has not been bred before. The female should get tested for sure. If you plan to use an outside stud, you will have to show proof of a negative Brucellosis test before breeding so you might as well get it done. This test will have to be repeated before *every* breeding to a new stud.


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## taxidriver20

Freestep said:


> Why do you want to breed this dog? Simply because you paid a lot for him? Do you actually know anything about dog breeding?
> 
> 
> 
> Does she have any titles?




I would think with his temperment and her drive and both their pedigree they should produce good pups!


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## selzer

Brucellosis is doggy VD. Only, they can get it off the toilet seat so to speak. 

It is bad because 1, there is no cure; 2, they can spread it to your other dogs, and 3, it will make your bitches abort and become sterile, and make your dogs sterile.

Also, it is making a comeback, possibly because of how far and wide the dogs from Katrina were spread around. Hard to say, but it is something you should definitely test for.


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## msvette2u

** Comments removed by ADMIN. **


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## KatsMuse

taxidriver20 said:


> No I have never had this test done what is ?
> 
> 
> http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/brucellosis_canis.pdf


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## taxidriver20

**Comments removed since quoted post removed**


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## taxidriver20

KatsMuse said:


> taxidriver20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I have never had this test done what is ?
> 
> 
> http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/brucellosis_canis.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a lot to learn I will go have that test and a sperm count done tomorrow!!
Click to expand...


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## KatsMuse

qbchottu said:


> I think you have a lot to learn before jumping to breeding.
> 
> http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/brucellosis_canis.pdf
> Merck Veterinary Manual
> 
> I would be less concerned with the male having Brucellosis since he has not been bred before. The female should get tested for sure. If you plan to use an outside stud, you will have to show proof of a negative Brucellosis test before breeding so you might as well get it done. This test will have to be repeated before *every* breeding to a new stud.


:thumbup: absolutely correct!


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## msvette2u

taxidriver20 said:


> KatsMuse said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a lot to learn I will go have that test and a sperm count done tomorrow!!
> 
> 
> 
> That is a good START. But, you really have to do a lot more work before breeding.
> You sound like you want to do it right, but you're only halfway there, I'm sorry to say!
Click to expand...


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## KatsMuse

taxidriver20 said:


> KatsMuse said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do have a lot to learn I will go have that test and a sperm count done tomorrow!!
> 
> 
> 
> Please , at the very least, read the info on canines .
> not giving you a hard time...just a suggestion
Click to expand...


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## taxidriver20

KatsMuse said:


> taxidriver20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please , at the very least, read the info on canines .
> not giving you a hard time...just a suggestion
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read the info thats why I am having the test done! I guess there is a lot more to breeding than I realized. And you are right I want to do it right I just wish I had done this homework before I spent 7k on this dog!! I am also gonna do the progesterone test tomorrow too. As I said before she has only been bred one other time to a proven stud an older dog but the breeding was no charge since my trainer knew the people! She only produced one pup but he was fine and he is doing very well!!
Click to expand...


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## msvette2u

One of the things you need to know is bloodlines. From what I've learned here, you can mix two great dogs with great pedigrees and get a very difficult litter temperament-wise. 
I'd talk to Carmspack here, or even Cliffson and see what they think about your dogs' pedigrees.


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## cliffson1

I know that you have good and bad in all lines, and I know you can get soft dogs in all lines, and I know your dog has a super pedigree, BUT I am going to go out on a limb and take a guess that might be a West German Showline dog. IF that is the case, it is very difficult to specifically pinpoint causation, although this is more common in these lines which is why I am going on a limb with the feeling it is WGSL. There are many negatives to long line/inbreeding breeds a few dogs. One of them is the decrease in hybrid vigor, temperament vigor, drive vigor, etc. Unfortunately, I have seen this occur (lack of breeding intensity) often with softer dogs who will get a strong correction from the female early on and will refuse to attempt to mount that female for the rest of the cycle. 
If you have a decent female to be bred, the worst thing(for the breed) you can do is breed her to this male, unless you find he has medical issues that are causing the problems.


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## Freestep

taxidriver20 said:


> I would think with his temperment and her drive and both their pedigree they should produce good pups!


You'd *think* that, wouldn't you?

Unfortunately, it's not that simple.

I'm not understanding what is breedworthy about a temperament that is "afraid of his own shadow", won't do bitework, and has no libido.

He sounds like a wonderful pet. But there's more to breeding than that.


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## Cunningham GSDs

Hello,
I just wanted to make a suggestion to the original poster. I too, am fairly new to breeding but it is a lifelong dream of mine and so I am learning and taking it slow like you. No one can tell you to breed or not breed your dog. The suggestions you have received here though, are from very experienced breeders who know what they are talking about. I mean no offense but I think most of the wonderful people on this forum would agree with me that breeders have a tendancy to be a very opinionated lot, so just remember that they are opinions and they don't always agree. 

The thing that has helped my learning the most is having a mentor and that is what I would suggest to you....seek out a mentor breeder who can show you the ropes and teach you all you need to know to do this right. They can help you sift through the opinions and find the research that back up what will become your belief system as a breeder. You have to decide what you are breeding for and make your decisions based on that end. Are you breeding high drive working line dogs that would be good for sport or shutzund, etc, or are you breeding for great family dogs/pets, etc.? Once you know what direction you are going, then you can decide what traits you are trying to produce. I know there are breeders on this forum who do Not title their dogs and they produce great pups, and there are those here who would never breed an untitled dog. Again, all opinions. Find someone with knowledge to help you decipher it all. 

As to the sex drive of the stud.....he may be smarter than you think he is! I called my mentor with the same issue as it was my stud's first time and after taking his suggestions, it turned out my stud knew exactly what he was doing....my bitch wasn't ready yet. When she was ready, he did his job and all was well. Good luck to you.


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## taxidriver20

cliffson1 said:


> I know that you have good and bad in all lines, and I know you can get soft dogs in all lines, and I know your dog has a super pedigree, BUT I am going to go out on a limb and take a guess that might be a West German Showline dog. IF that is the case, it is very difficult to specifically pinpoint causation, although this is more common in these lines which is why I am going on a limb with the feeling it is WGSL. There are many negatives to long line/inbreeding breeds a few dogs. One of them is the decrease in hybrid vigor, temperament vigor, drive vigor, etc. Unfortunately, I have seen this occur (lack of breeding intensity) often with softer dogs who will get a strong correction from the female early on and will refuse to attempt to mount that female for the rest of the cycle.
> If you have a decent female to be bred, the worst thing(for the breed) you can do is breed her to this male, unless you find he has medical issues that are causing the problems.


You are 100% correct he is a WGSL! My bitch just started flagging yesterday and he is responding,he has mounted her and tried 3 or 4 times now. I talked to and showed a respected breeder my male today and he liked him, he said he saw no signs of fear and the mirror thing was when he first got here and was not used to his surroundings. He also told me to keep them separated and try for no more then 5 min at a time to keep his interest peaked,he also said once he successfully mates for the 1st time he will have no trouble in the future! Had the vet tests done on my male and everything is good no medical issues!! So lets hope he can figure it out!!


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## msvette2u

> If you have a decent female to be bred, the worst thing(for the breed) you can do is breed her to this male,


You should listen to cliffson.


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## cliffson1

Thanks Msvette, I think we have the same concerns. 
@OP......not saying that your male is not nice, not even saying he unequivocally should not be bred....but it would be very difficult to find a female to compliment his weaknesses in the same line of dog as he is.(that's because even a nice tempered SL female still has a back massing of the same dogs as he does. ) Maybe a nice rock solid DDR female may compliment this male, but you are probably considering breeding him to a like line.....and that is not really good for the breed, IMO!


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## msvette2u

> .and that is not really good for the breed, IMO!


I'm all for well-bred dogs and breeders with the talent to make that happen.
Anything less is just breeding ho-hum dogs, or worse yet, dogs with the potential for health and temperament problems.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Maybe its just me but I get the impression OP (meaning no offence) doesnt have the know how to properly evaluate a breeding prospect GSD yet. The picture we are getting of the dog may not be accurate. It sounds like he did the right testing and got an experienced breeders evaluation. Perhaps he should have waited a season or two but if they tied they tied. All I can say is research your butt off OP and if you can get the bitch or stud titled down the road all the better. Good Luck.


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## taxidriver20

I may have been mistaken about this male, I had company over yesterday and a friend snuck up behind me while I was in the recliner watching tv,Olek was laying about 10ft away facing me. All of a sudden I see olek sit up hair standing up staring behind me unfortunately the person who was trying to scare me did not notice this! The next thing I know olek bolts to my side growling barking and showing teeth,needless to say my buddy basically RAN the other way....Now I ask you would a "soft dog" do this? I also put the same mirror in front of him and this time he licked it! I think it was a combination of him leaving his home in Germany(he lived in a home with the family in the video) and new surroundings! I also took him to the weekly fireworks they have at Hampton Beach in NH and he did not jump or show any signs of fear! This video will show you the bitework he had in Germany and maybe yall can give me an updated opinion!! olek - YouTube


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## Lakl

Did you have an experienced person evaluate this video before purchasing? I am still very new to bite work and the protection phase of SchH, and learning more everyday, but I do not see a confident dog in this video. More experienced people may correct me and be able to give you a better evaluation, but it seems to me that the dog is all over the place and very uncertain. It also appears that he only hits the sleeve when the helper stops waving the stick and offers it to him. Just my inexperienced evaluation though...


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## msvette2u

Lakl said:


> Did you have an experienced person evaluate this video before purchasing? I am still very new to bite work and the protection phase of SchH, and learning more everyday, but I do not see a confident dog in this video. More experienced people may correct me and be able to give you a better evaluation, but it seems to me that the dog is all over the place and very uncertain. It also appears that he only hits the sleeve when the helper stops waving the stick and offers it to him. Just my inexperienced evaluation though...


I'm even less experienced but the ears back and slightly cowering actions I saw don't speak of confidence.


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## Elaine

I watched his bite work and think he would make a nice family pet. He's a showline dog and very young in this video, but he's not very impressive here even given that.


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## llombardo

Lakl said:


> Did you have an experienced person evaluate this video before purchasing? I am still very new to bite work and the protection phase of SchH, and learning more everyday, but I do not see a confident dog in this video. More experienced people may correct me and be able to give you a better evaluation, but it seems to me that the dog is all over the place and very uncertain. It also appears that he only hits the sleeve when the helper stops waving the stick and offers it to him. Just my inexperienced evaluation though...


I don't think that I seen the helper swing the stick until after the dog was on the sleeve? Maybe slightly before to get the dog going? I do think the dog has a good on and off switch...to be able to go for the sleeve, then back to his handler(particularly the child) in a good state. Other then that I have nothing


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## Lakl

I can't hear the sound in this video, but another note I made is the dog seems confused by the presence of the boy and if you watch, he actually barks AT the boy and nips at his hand when he moves to pet him. This add to my original thoughts of him being confused. He does not show a clear head in this action (IMO). Not sure why they would have the boy on the side trying pet him while working him either. Too much going on with too many people and the dog seems very unsure.


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## llombardo

Lakl said:


> I can't hear the sound in this video, but another note I made is the dog seems confused by the presence of the boy and if you watch, he actually barks AT the boy and nips at his hand when he moves to pet him. This add to my original thoughts of him being confused. He does not show a clear head in this action (IMO). Not sure why they would have the boy on the side trying pet him while working him either. Too much going on with too many people and the dog seems very unsure.


I wish there was sound too He mouthed the boy, I didn't see a nip. It looks like it was done in excitement IMO. I don't think it was a smart move to have a child there, but I think that this dog was on the young side in the video and it looks like it was a "fun" thing for him to do, which isn't a bad thing.


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## msvette2u

I didn't see "off switch". I saw dog reluctant to work, he'd rather be a pet, and that's fine, but if you want any working ability, don't look to this dog for it.


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## taxidriver20

Lakl said:


> Did you have an experienced person evaluate this video before purchasing? I am still very new to bite work and the protection phase of SchH, and learning more everyday, but I do not see a confident dog in this video. More experienced people may correct me and be able to give you a better evaluation, but it seems to me that the dog is all over the place and very uncertain. It also appears that he only hits the sleeve when the helper stops waving the stick and offers it to him. Just my inexperienced evaluation though...



I was told he was just starting bitework so he probably has not much training at it! I have seen dogs that won't even go after the sleeve no matter what the trainer does,so I think it's a pretty good start,but again I am no pro I am only going by what I see in the dog and what I have been told! And as far as him having no vigor to breed.....I just did not wait long enough,now I cannot keep him of of her! He has had three successful ties. The first about 13 min,the second 12 hrs later about 20 min the third 12 hrs after that about 45 min(all within a 24 hr period)! I will keep everyone updated when the pups arrive, I have to give it a shot,if people here are correct then I will have a bunch of nice house dogs,but I think they are going to be much more than that!!


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## Lakl

llombardo said:


> I wish there was sound too He mouthed the boy, I didn't see a nip. It looks like it was done in excitement IMO. I don't think it was a smart move to have a child there, but I think that this dog was on the young side in the video and it looks like it was a "fun" thing for him to do, which isn't a bad thing.


I thought the video was being used in reference to the dog's temperament and and breed worthiness? If it was in fun, that's another thing, but this is not a video I would present for a pending sale on a future stud.


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## TrickyShepherd

Lakl said:


> I can't hear the sound in this video, but another note I made is the dog seems confused by the presence of the boy and if you watch, he actually barks AT the boy and nips at his hand when he moves to pet him. This add to my original thoughts of him being confused. He does not show a clear head in this action (IMO). Not sure why they would have the boy on the side trying pet him while working him either. Too much going on with too many people and the dog seems very unsure.


I absolutely agree with that. 

In my opinion I don't see anything great. He's a very handsome boy, but seems to lack confidence and as Lakl said... seems extremely confused. What I saw (could be wrong, only watched once with no sound) was he lacked that confident drive forward. Really not sure why everyone had to be so darn close and surrounding him during bite work. While watching the video I was waiting for someone to get caught up or trip...

However, I think it's a bit unfair to the dog to put too much weight on this video. With proper handling and training.... I'm sure you may see a slightly different dog. 

Worthy of breeding? I don't really see that with what the OP has said about him and from what I saw. I think you should give him some time to settle in, get him with a good trainer and mentor and see how he does then. 

Handsome boy though... I do love B&R SL males.


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## cliffson1

With proper training and handling you MAY see a SLIGHTLY different dog. I see a lot in the video, but I hope you have bred him to a female that strengthens his weaknesses. Good Luck!


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## taxidriver20

TrickyShepherd said:


> I absolutely agree with that.
> 
> In my opinion I don't see anything great. He's a very handsome boy, but seems to lack confidence and as Lakl said... seems extremely confused. What I saw (could be wrong, only watched once with no sound) was he lacked that confident drive forward. Really not sure why everyone had to be so darn close and surrounding him during bite work. While watching the video I was waiting for someone to get caught up or trip...
> 
> However, I think it's a bit unfair to the dog to put too much weight on this video. With proper handling and training.... I'm sure you may see a slightly different dog.
> 
> Worthy of breeding? I don't really see that with what the OP has said about him and from what I saw. I think you should give him some time to settle in, get him with a good trainer and mentor and see how he does then.
> 
> Handsome boy though... I do love B&R SL males.


Yes he is a very good looking dog no doubt,I am posting this video of my female ,she has enough drive for the both of them! A little too much at times with a GREAT personality to boot.....this is of her in the pool I will Post a video of her bitework here when I make one there is a big difference in the two!! Roxie swimming 2 - YouTube It is 3:25 est here and this video is still uploading to youtube give it about half an hour!!


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## qbchottu

TrickyShepherd said:


> However, I think it's a bit unfair to the dog to put too much weight on this video. With proper handling and training.... I'm sure you may see a slightly different dog.


:thumbup:

This video tells me more about the people _selling_ the dog than the dog itself. Chaos abound with a child running about while the dog is doing bitework? On the first bite, the handler attempts to run the dog around, but cannot because the child stands in the way and dog is unsure of what is going on. Why anyone would have a child interfering in the middle of a dog doing bitework is beyond me....

There is not much to say about the handler either. Little teamwork and encouragement, confusing movement and lack of experience shows. 

Dog's tail is wagging, bites are full and he grips/holds the sleeve. For a 2 year old dog, he should be further along, but then again this video shows this dog in a bad light. This looks to be a family type set up. If the mother is handling with the son running about, I'll assume that the helper is the father. It's never a great idea to have your dog bite someone they know. I say this because of the numerous comments about his ears being back. If I play with my dog, his ears are back. When he bites a helper, he doesn't display the same behaviors he would if he was tugging with me. I wouldn't work my own dog in any serious capacity. Definitely not in a video made to sell the dog. Odd practices...

With a different trainer, helper and handler, this dog could *possibly *do well and get his titles. 

But the problem is that these are all just uncertainties and speculations. You should be answering these questions and finding out if your dog possesses these qualities BEFORE studding him out and before purchasing him. But I suspect you will do as you please so I just hope you try to educate yourself as much as possible before future breedings and purchases...


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## Freestep

taxidriver20 said:


> The next thing I know olek bolts to my side growling barking and showing teeth,needless to say my buddy basically RAN the other way....Now I ask you would a "soft dog" do this?


The short answer is yes.

It sounds like Olek was scared, and reacted with aggression. Not an uncommon thing to see in a young GSD, but it's not what you want.

The bitework video shows a young, uncertain dog that does not have a boatload of drive. With a lot of the right kind of training, he could appear stronger in the bitework, but that will not change his basic temperament.

With maturity and training, I see a nice, very handsome pet. Nothing strikes me as exceptionally breedworthy, however. You're right that some dogs won't even go after the sleeve at all, so in that respect he does better than some. If you wanted to, you might even be able to get a title on him.


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## JakodaCD OA

I dunno why people think they have to go to germany to find a good stud dog, so many right in their own backyards..


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## qbchottu

JakodaCD OA said:


> I dunno why people think they have to go to germany to find a good stud dog, so many right in their own backyards..


They don't know any better most of the time imo. Common misconception that a pink papered German import is going to be the best thing since sliced bread and superior to anything home grown.

In reality, they usually sell us their duds and keep the best in Germany. Especially when they know that you don't know any better


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## Catu

Ok dog by his line standards, will bite a sleeve in the required courage test. Isn't it all about that?

I agree with qbchottu that the video speaks more of the level of knowledge and interests of the seller, the importer and the buyer. Dog itself is one among thousands, will not precisely hurt its lines as they currently are.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree


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## Freestep

And for $7K! I hate to tell the OP that a clever dog broker saw him coming...


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## JakodaCD OA

7K? ee gads nope I'll stick to my cheapo working lines


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## JakodaCD OA

saw the swimming video, nice pool She looks like she likes the water


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## KatsMuse

taxidriver20 said:


> I was told he was just starting bitework so he probably has not much training at it! I have seen dogs that won't even go after the sleeve no matter what the trainer does,so I think it's a pretty good start,but again I am no pro I am only going by what I see in the dog and what I have been told! And as far as him having no vigor to breed.....I just did not wait long enough,now I cannot keep him of of her! He has had three successful ties. The first about 13 min,the second 12 hrs later about 20 min the third 12 hrs after that about 45 min(all within a 24 hr period)! I will keep everyone updated when the pups arrive, I have to give it a shot,if people here are correct then I will have a bunch of nice house dogs,but I think they are going to be much more than that!!


Well, with 3 ties in a 24 hour period, you may have gotten what you wanted after all.... Wish you the best of luck.


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## msvette2u

taxidriver20 said:


> Yes he is a very good looking dog no doubt,


This is a random vid I picked, to compare your male's vid to.
German shepherd protection dogs training - male Boss - bite work and long attack - YouTube 
I am not an expert - but this boy looks happy to be working and enjoying the activity. He's not hesitant at all.


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## taxidriver20

msvette2u said:


> This is a random vid I picked, to compare your male's vid to.
> German shepherd protection dogs training - male Boss - bite work and long attack - YouTube
> I am not an expert - but this boy looks happy to be working and enjoying the activity. He's not hesitant at all.


 I am not as green as some think when it comes to a well trained schz 3 dog....I own one, this is Roxies (My female in the pool videos) father Alphonse He has all the titles! This is a quickie vid of him in action! He is about 7.5 yrs old when this was shot...listen to the teeth!! I have longer vids with more extensive work!! Al at work 2011 015 - YouTube


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## Wolfgeist

taxidriver20 said:


> I am not as green as some think when it comes to a well trained schz 3 dog....I own one, this is Roxies (My female in the pool videos) father Alphonse He has all the titles! This is a quickie vid of him in action! He is about 7.5 yrs old when this was shot...listen to the teeth!! I have longer vids with more extensive work!! Al at work 2011 015 - YouTube


Dog is very mouthy with what seems like anxious vocalizations on the sleeve when told to out - I see a lack of true confidence so to speak with the dog. Re-bites after you finally get him to out first bite. Dog would not out for you after. That's not what I like to see at all.


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## taxidriver20

Wild Wolf said:


> Dog is very mouthy with what seems like anxious vocalizations on the sleeve when told to out - I see a lack of true confidence so to speak with the dog. Re-bites after you finally get him to out first bite. Dog would not out for you after. That's not what I like to see at all.



I was looking at the pics of Hunter, He reminds me a lot of my female Roxie tons of drive endless energy...I can swing her around same as you do with hunter and she LOVES it!! I will make a video of her in action I think you will like what you see!!


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## Catu

Sorry to say this but, if you think that swimming in a little pool, endless energy and swinging around from a toy is what people like to see, you are not even aware of how green you are.

This is a great article to start
Elem. of Temperament


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## Xeph

I have to agree with Catu. All of my dogs do what you mention (well, only one likes swimming xD). That's really not saying much


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## Konotashi

Catu said:


> Sorry to say this but, if you think that swimming in a little pool, endless energy and swinging around from a toy is what people like to see, you are not even aware of how green you are.
> 
> This is a great article to start
> Elem. of Temperament


My Pom does all these things.... 
(The first three things listed by OP).


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## KatsMuse

opcorn:....a little off topic, but I like videos.


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## JakodaCD OA

just curious did you train/handle Al to his Sch3?


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## msvette2u

To me..."endless energy" is not something I want to deal with in a dog. I like a dog with an off switch. 
But an off switch doesn't mean "I don't want to work", it means you can have them in the house and expect them to be well behaved and quiet in the house, yet energetic and lively on the field and willing to work. 

To the OP - I'd encourage you to learn a whole lot more before you breed your dogs again.
Spending 7k on a dog doesn't ensure you are going to have marvelous puppies from him or her.


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## taxidriver20

JakodaCD OA said:


> just curious did you train/handle Al to his Sch3?



No I did not train Al he was trained by the trainer you see in the video! And to the person who said he did not look confident ,I beg to differ I just showed a snippet video here is a longer more in depth video...and remember he is retired. The kennel I bought my female from gave him to me a year after I bought her on a foster plan they only use him to stud. And as far as Roxie having an "on off switch" she is fine inside the home granted she will bark at the tv once in a while,she is an avid tv watcher! But when corrected she stops immediately! As I said she should have her schz 1 title within the next 2 weeks or so. Al at work 2011 016 - YouTube


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## Catu

Good to hear Roxie is about to get titled soon. I wanted to title mine in October, but since between crappy weather and travels that have taken longer than expected I doubt we will be ready and probably will have to wait until summer.

Are you member of a club? Are you training her yourself as handler?


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## Lakl

Al looks like a nice dog. The trainer, however, looks bored out of his mind. Lol.


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## Freestep

taxidriver20 said:


> No I did not train Al he was trained by the trainer you see in the video! And to the person who said he did not look confident ,I beg to differ I just showed a snippet video here is a longer more in depth video...and remember he is retired. .... Al at work 2011 016 - YouTube


Am I supposed to be seeing something impressive? It just looks like more of the same. A handsome showline male with just enough drive to bite the sleeve, not taking things TOO seriously, a reasonably good club-level dog. I don't see confidence just oozing out of him. I see a nice pet that enjoys playing the sleeve game, as long as he knows he can win.


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## taxidriver20

*Update*

It turns out I was just impatient my bitch Roxie had 9 puppies 1 stillborn the other 8 perfectly healthy! She had a very easy delivery they just slid right out no strain or stress. For all that was said the puppies turned out fine plenty of drive they are about 5 mths old now! All have been sold and the new owners are quite pleased! I have been working with a very well respected trainer in the area with my male he thinks something traumatized him at a young age that's why he is jumpy! He is not afraid to mix it up with other males and he seems to be more driven than when i spoke here last. I am awaiting my second litter due mid april and already have 4 sold just from word of mouth from my last breeding! My Males looks sell his puppies everyone i run into with him stops me and compliments him! I even have a cop on the waiting list!! Just wanted to send out an update and say to the nay sayers here you cannot judge a dog by it's cover you have to see whats inside him!


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## carmspack

watched the video of "Al" -- that decoy , no fight or energy , he is looking out the window , looking at himself in he mirror most of the time , mugging with that rolled eye look into the camera -- the dog is playing , see how many times he brings the sleeve back to the decoy.
Dog does look nice in conformation though. 

In the Olek tape dog is sensitive about his feet . Will tuck - and then the decoy , not a good job either , just wandering around feeding sleeve to dog , no fight , goes crazy with the whip flipping it at the feet , over and over again. Huh . Wait and see how the dog does on a courage test.


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## robk

carmspack said:


> watched the video of "Al" -- that decoy , no fight or energy , he is looking out the window , looking at himself in he mirror most of the time , mugging with that rolled eye look into the camera -- the dog is playing , see how many times he brings the sleeve back to the decoy.
> Dog does look nice in conformation though.
> 
> In the Olek tape dog is sensitive about his feet . Will tuck - and then the decoy , not a good job either , just wandering around feeding sleeve to dog , no fight , goes crazy with the whip flipping it at the feet , over and over again. Huh . Wait and see how the dog does on a courage test.


I watched the Al video as well. I actually like the dog. The helper did seemed a little pompous though. Like he was not really interested. Just there for the money and to look at himself in the mirror.


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## taxidriver20

I agree with your assessment I wholeheartedly believe Olek was traumatized somehow as a puppy and it has to do with humans! I was at an open house at a kennel close by where they train schutzund while we were watching a demo a big black Shepherd got a little close behind us Olek went nuts if I did not have a good grip on his leash he would have been all over that dog! It shocked the **** outta me because I never saw that side of him when I walk him he is fine with other dogs. So as far as courage goes he is not lacking it around other dogs. Also when I leave him in the car and go in the store if someone walks to close to the car he loses his mind the tint on my windows is all scratched up because of it! He may not look good in the video but in real life situations I think he has what he needs! I am gonna post a video soon of my female hitting the bite sleeve she is a natural the first time i brought her in she watched another dog once and hit that sleeve like she was born to do it! She is impressive!!


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## Mrs.P

taxidriver20 said:


> I was at an open house at a kennel close by where they train schutzund while we were watching a demo a big black Shepherd got a little close behind us Olek went nuts if I did not have a good grip on his leash he would have been all over that dog! ... So as far as courage goes he is not lacking it around other dogs.


huh??? A self-confident dog would not have reacted to a non-threat


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## RubyTuesday

Excellent point, Mrs P!


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## carmspack

who said he was traumatized ? Not me ! I said the decoy work was poor -- the dog was sensitive about his feet .
The "Al" dog was better - seems to have better temperament. Olek is spastic , focus is not concentrated . 
You took the dog to a schutzhund demo where a dog walked behind your Olek who went nuts . Words such as big and black and GSD don't matter -- it was a dog . The difference between this encounter and your meeting dogs on walks is that at the demo there is stimulation , conflict, and when your dog REACTED he was distressed. You can see hints of that in the first video you showed when the dog kept targetting the young boy -- even in the first clip which abruptly ends , when the dog faces the boy (editing) . 
Seems like an over the top reaction in the car . Someone passing minding their own business not provoking the dog -- at most the dog should be watching the person . Distress . Not courage.


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## Freestep

taxidriver20 said:


> we were watching a demo a big black Shepherd got a little close behind us Olek went nuts if I did not have a good grip on his leash he would have been all over that dog! It shocked the **** outta me because I never saw that side of him when I walk him he is fine with other dogs. So as far as courage goes he is not lacking it around other dogs.


Your dog freaked out because another dog got "a little close"? I hate to be the one to break this to you, but that is not "courage".



> Also when I leave him in the car and go in the store if someone walks to close to the car he loses his mind the tint on my windows is all scratched up because of it!


Again, your dog "loses his mind" at innocent passers-by and you think this is "courage"? 

A dog with real courage and strong nerve does not need to feel so defensive whenever a benign stranger or strange dog is near. He's feeling threatened when there is no reason to be.

You have a lot to learn yet. Maybe as your dog gets older he will not be quite so reactive, but it sounds like you are proud of his fearful threat displays, so you're probably encouraging them. Too bad.


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## LeoRose

taxidriver20 said:


> I agree with your assessment I wholeheartedly believe Olek was traumatized somehow as a puppy and it has to do with humans! I was at an open house at a kennel close by where they train schutzund while we were watching a demo *a big black Shepherd got a little close behind us Olek went nuts *if I did not have a good grip on his leash he would have been all over that dog! It shocked the **** outta me because I never saw that side of him when I walk him he is fine with other dogs. So as far as courage goes he is not lacking it around other dogs. *Also when I leave him in the car and go in the store if someone walks to close to the car he loses his mind* the tint on my windows is all scratched up because of it! He may not look good in the video but in real life situations I think he has what he needs! I am gonna post a video soon of my female hitting the bite sleeve she is a natural the first time i brought her in she watched another dog once and hit that sleeve like she was born to do it! She is impressive!!


I've got a dog that does that, too. Only I call it reactivity, not courage.


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