# Choosing a puppy with good hip history



## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I think I may have found a great possible puppy. She is Czech/DDR working lines. The dam is OFA Good and has nothing but A1s behind her side of the pedigree. The sire is OFA Fair and also has all A1s behind him. Puppy is linebred 3-3 on Norbo Ben-Ju and 5-5 on Bojar z Pohranicni straze. I am trying to avoid a dysplastic puppy and one who has solid nerves and temperament with good drives for training towards a BH and maybe more. Is the sire being only Fair a reason to keep looking or do you think this pup would be a good choice? I am really wanting her but am gunshy about having another dog with bad hips.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Not enough information really. I wouldn't discount a Fair, but it depends on other factors, namely what his other close relatives (not just ancestors) are like. A Fair from a litter of Fairs is a good breeding choice. An Excellent with a bunch of dysplastic littermates is not. You need to research the other relatives; previous offspring, siblings of the sire and dam, siblings of the grandparents, etc... especially if HD is a major concern.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Well in the sire's litter there was a total of 5 - he being Fair, 2 males being A1 and 1 male and 1 female with no hip ratings - the female has 1 progeny listed but again no hip rating. I went through most of his sire's (Mambo z Pohranici straze) offspring and out of 65 listed I found 1 A3 and 1 A4, the rest were A1, Excellent or not listed. On his dam's (Velmi Dorby Puci Jipo-Me) side most of her 11 listed progeny were not listed but the ones that were are A1 or Good.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Exactly what Chris said, just cause the parents and Grand parents and so on down thru the pedigree has good hips doesn't mean that they won't produce a pup or 2 with bad hips. Like Chris said look at the parents and see if you can find their littermates and see whet their hip scores are and what they produced. Just cause a dog has good to excellent hip scores doesn't mean that they will produce that. Some times the match between the male and female doesn't work well with each other also. I have seen a breeder breed 2 dogs that had excellent rated hips and found that a few of the pups had hip displacia. Norbo on the other hand produced nicely. But when linebreeding you also have to look for dogs that didn't produce well as this can come back to bite you 3 fold sometimes

I bred to a Norbo nephew that was a son to Norbo's littermate Nesie Ben Ju and produced as far as I know all good hips from our litter.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Ah found the sister in OFA database - the two were not connected. She is OFA Good.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have had two gsd's out of Fair sire/Good dams...Both ofa'd out Good..but it is what it is...we can only hope we stack the deck in our favor


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I will continue my search, thanks for the advice you all!


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

I think it is a gamble either way, no matter how much research you do. I had a female with her father being Noch3 (dysplastic). She came out OFA Good and so did the pups out of her that did go for OFA's. I also knew of someone that got a female with hips passing through and through on the pedigree and her siblings, and parents siblings. She came out with 1 dysplastic hip, so to me it's a gamble either way. Just find the breeder that will back up their guarantee if it comes down to it.


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## kleinenHain (Sep 20, 2007)

So many good points and I agree. Kelly has a good point too find a breeder that will back their contract


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Yeah but so many contracts and guarantees out there are in favor of the breeder and not the buyer so pretty much not really worth it for me. Most I have been looking at only cover moderate to severe HD and require return of the dog and replacement dog may be offered at a reduced price. Or they require you to give the dog a certain supplement/vitamin/food (that they happen to be a dealer of) and if you don't your contract is void. Not something I want to deal with - there's plenty of that crap in Shiloh Shepherd contracts - so much that it makes it almost impossible to actually fall back on the guarantee should something not go right. There is no way I will find a puppy I like at a good price with a good contract with a good hip pedigree and other health testing and that does early neurological stimulation and socializes the puppies well - it just doesn't exist so I compromise on some aspects in order to get the points most important to me. I've been looking at so many pedigrees lately and there's a ton of A2 to A2 and A2 to A3 breedings being done and those are just way too risky for me to even contemplate a puppy from. But they are so plentiful!

I found one breeder that health tests to the max and socializes well and has an okay guarantee but her dogs and puppies were ugly. So the focus on the health only resulted in small boned barely GSD looking puppies - but I'm sure they'd all pass OFA! Really don't want to sacrifice looks for good health if I don't have to! Is it too much to ask for a healthy PRETTY puppy?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

spiritsmom said:


> There is no way I will find a puppy I like at a good price with a good contract with a good hip pedigree and other health testing and that does early neurological stimulation and socializes the puppies well - it just doesn't exist so I compromise on some aspects in order to get the points most important to me.


I don't think this is nonexistent. What other health testing are you looking for? 

My hip guarantee is 50% of purchase price back:

_At Buyer’s expense, X-ray films of the dog’s hips and elbows, showing proper positioning and meeting OFA standards, must be submitted to OFA for evaluation prior to one year of age. If in OFA’s evaluation the dog shows evidence of hip dysplasia or elbow dysfunction, the Buyer will receive 1/2 of the original purchase price back. Seller must receive veterinary verification of sterilization in writing before any refund will be given._

I used to follow the precise early neurologic stimulation protocol, but it was so similar to the experiences the puppies had with their daily handling and cleaning the whelping box and snuggling and petting (turning them upside down and different angles, touching/stimulating their feet, cold flooring for a few seconds, etc., so I do them much less formally and simply just handle them regularly and expose them to different stimuli before their eyes are open.

After reading this study abstract, my latest litter is watching TV--no soap operas allowed! 

Christine


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think it's non existent either. 

I think Christine's above, is a pretty good guarantee, and would be happy to have that.

I don't look for an ironclad guarantee, there are no guarantees with a life. It is what it is. You can only hope you have stacked the deck in your favor. 

Sometimes weeding thru breeders you can get overwhelmed and over analyze way to much. Finding a breeder you like is 1/2 the battle. I would take good HEALTH over Looks anyday of the week. Nice looking is icing on the cake. 

Agreed, I think everyone should do their homework, but alot of it is going with your gut to. 

There are ALOT of really great breeders on this forum alone. If I was in the market for another puppy, I would be checking out the breeders on this forum first. There are alot of puppy owners from the breeders on this board, and I honestly don't see any of them complaining about the 'health' of their dogs gotten from said breeders.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is no empirical evidence in German Shepherds that will be able to guarantee hips. Chris laid it out very well in the siblings hips and grandparents and their siblings will give you as much insight as the immediate parents. I have also bred to Norbo nephew, had nine pups and hips of all known dogs are good. Focus on the dogs, and not the hips unless the lines you are dealing with are known for hip problems.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

In my contract I do Not ask for the dog back if it has HD unless, and ONLY unless they don't want the dog any more. You can keep the dog, plus you either can get another puppy or money back. I will take any of my puppies/dogs back rather than them going to a kill shelter or get rehomed and I don't know where they are. Also I do the ENS on my puppies as well. I also don't think what you are looking for is nonexistent. You just have to really weed out the bad from the good like anyone else including us breeders have to do. I've had my fair share of disappointment too getting puppies from other breeders. Like I said though you just have to weed them out, and look in the right areas.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

It would be nice to find a breeder that does hips AND elbows as well as a TLI at the very minimum. CERF and the DM gene would be nice to see done to avoid problems like pannus and epi down the road but not a must because that's a very rare breeder that does all of that. It's what I would test for if I were a breeder. Ideally I'd like to see a pedigree full of A1s or OFA Good/Excellent with normal elbows. I'll take a Fair or A2 here and there but there can't be too much of that. It's still a gamble and the only way to guarantee no HD or ED is to buy an adult that can have the x-rays done already but that is way out of my price range! I like the plushier coats and they are just hard to find in working lines, very easy to find in showlines. But my plans are to buy on limited reg and after health testing and titling have the reg changed to full but many breeders I have contacted are not at all willing to do that on a plushy/coated puppy even though the SV is relaxing their stance on coated dogs. I like conformation showing but I would rather title in other areas. I just prefer a plushier dog - if it weren't for that I would have a much more open pool of breeders to pick from.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Why do you need full registration if you are not interested in conformation showing? Are you planning to breed her?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Do you have to have full registration to show in conformation-even a match? Sorry off topic


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

spiritsmom said:


> It would be nice to find a breeder that does hips AND elbows as well as a TLI at the very minimum. CERF and the DM gene would be nice to see done to avoid problems like pannus and epi down the road but not a must because that's a very rare breeder that does all of that. It's what I would test for if I were a breeder. Ideally I'd like to see a pedigree full of A1s or OFA Good/Excellent with normal elbows. I'll take a Fair or A2 here and there but there can't be too much of that. It's still a gamble and the only way to guarantee no HD or ED is to buy an adult that can have the x-rays done already but that is way out of my price range! I like the plushier coats and they are just hard to find in working lines, very easy to find in showlines. But my plans are to buy on limited reg and after health testing and titling have the reg changed to full but many breeders I have contacted are not at all willing to do that on a plushy/coated puppy even though the SV is relaxing their stance on coated dogs. I like conformation showing but I would rather title in other areas. I just prefer a plushier dog - if it weren't for that I would have a much more open pool of breeders to pick from.



As far as TLI--I guess I can understand that seeing that test done would help buyer confidence, but in general if a dog has EPI, a breeder is going to know it, as the dog is going to require medication or have other digestive issues. Unfortunately, a TLI test of a parent is not indicative of whether a puppy will end up with EPI. This website was particularly interesting, as it addresses how complex the hereditability of this disease is:

June 2009:_ "EPI __does have a genetic/heritable component, but it is likely more complex than autosomal recessive. In fact, a test breeding in Europe between __2 affected __dogs resulted in a litter with NO affected puppies. Most likely there are environmental factors (stress, virus, etc.) or multiple genes contributing. Unfortunately, __this means that there is no accurate way to identify carriers. Definitely do not breed affected dogs, and do not repeat matings that produced EPI. It may also __be safest to not line breed dogs that are "carriers."_ 


The problem with CERF as a test for GSDs is that it only checks what the eyes are AT THAT TIME--it is not predictive as to whether the dog will get Pannus at some point in the future and other eye problems are very rare in GSDs.

I've always done hips and elbows, and I've been glad to see that elbows are now required for dogs breed surveyed in Germany (so recent imports with breed surveys all have elbow ratings/certifications).

I've been trying to find data on the incidence of HD in SV dogs, and what I've found seems to indicate that the SV has only a 2% incidence of non-passing hip ratings--that is, 98% of dogs with xrays submitted for the "a" stamp receive A1, A2, or A3 ratings. Pretty good info. I know that NZ is commonly equated to OFA's moderate HD rating, but I've heard too many tales of NZ dogs imported and later receiving OFA Good or even Excellent ratings to think this is an consistently accurate equivalency. That said, I agree that it's wise to be wary of a dog with a lot of NZs in the pedigree. In that case, the SV's HDZW scoring system is very useful in contributing to a more rounded view of the dog's likely production. You can look up any dog's ZW number here: Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.: Zuchtwert I don't find a good site with a description of how the HD ZW system works, but the 4th post in this thread is a good summary.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

holland said:


> Do you have to have full registration to show in conformation-even a match? Sorry off topic


I don't think it is a requirement for a match, but it is a requirement for AKC or (I think) SV showing.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I would like the option available to breed down the road if everything turned out nice. Not sure how well a working line bitch would do in a show ring in my area, probably not too well. The American and German showlines are usually the ones who beat out any working line so I would show if I got a showlines dog, but not if I got a working line. Not really much point in that as I'd rather title the pup in something else like Sch or tracking. Not ruling out conformation showing, it's just not a main focus.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

But aren't you looking for a long coat?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Plush to long - I just don't want the short tight coats I've seen. If plush showing is still possible, if long not so much.


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