# Training Without Treats?



## rosswaa (Oct 21, 2010)

i want to teach my dog things like drop it and leave it but he really doesnt care about treats at all, never known a dog like him just isnt bothered by food
his favourite toy is a ball on string, but im not sure how to incorporate that into his training

do i give it to him or throw it for him, how long does he get it for? these sort of things i cant find out about


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

If your dog isn't caring for the treats he isn't hungry enough. Try not feeding him a meal and using that measured amount of kibble for training. Get him hungry enough....then try working with him.
How old is your puppy?


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## rosswaa (Oct 21, 2010)

He has just turned a year, he has some of the basics but I want to put him to work now properly

When I say he isn't interested in food, if he doesn't want to eat he has sometimes gone for 2 days or so without interest or if I give him something really tasty

He's very healthy and fit and very spoilt, which I'm beginning to think may be part of the problem, the vet said he will be harder to train as he was hand reared from birth as his mother was hit by a car and passed


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Have you tried yummier treats? Cheese, chicken, hot dogs?

If those aren't tasty enough for him, then use toys instead of treats. 

For drop it, give his a toy and use his ball on the string as the reward for dropping the other toy. The reward can be a couple of seconds of play with the other toy.

Leave it is the same way. Hold his toy and tell him leave it. When he relaxes and stops trying to get at the toy then his reward is a some play time with the toy (or another toy).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would say use the ball the same was as you would a treat. You'll have to go a little longer in between trys probably, but it works the same. Does it well--reward with a tug session, get the toy from him (you can use two of the same toy for this so he'll give it up), and do it over.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

GSDElsa said:


> I would say use the ball the same was as you would a treat. You'll have to go a little longer in between trys probably, but it works the same. Does it well--reward with a tug session, get the toy from him (you can use two of the same toy for this so he'll give it up), and do it over.


Yes, this is exactly it.

All dogs are different. Some dogs just don’t respond to food. I have one of those in my house.  

Basically what you are going to do is use the toy to motivate your dog. You’ll want to use what they call “motivational” training, not “reward” training. In your case, the ball is a toy you know your dog likes so I would use that.

I assume your dog plays catch. 

Start with playing catch. Holding the ball in one hand, don’t hide it from the dog. Let him/her know you have it. Ask him to sit. He sits, you’ll throw the ball. When he brings the ball back, make him drop/release the ball so you can throw again. I make Dalton put the ball in my open hand (just hate the dog slobber mixed with dirt :tongue. You don’t have to make him sit each time before throwing the ball. At first, I only throw the ball a few times. Maybe 3-4 times. When the dog listens to me, I throw the ball. When he doesn’t, I just stand there and wait. In the beginning I try to keep it short sessions. 

Praising him when he plays a good game is also important. If he sits nice and drops the ball when asked – praise. When he gets these 2 steps and starts sitting faster and dropping the ball faster you can add in additional steps. Like down, stay, come, heel, etc. Start the play sessions somewhat short and build up to longer sessions. When he listens he gets to play :doggieplayball:


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

My dogs didn't care for most treats either...not hotdogs or even chicken but they did take to little smokies and they love the home made beef crunchies.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Masi is much more motivated by a toy (frisbee/tuggy) than food. She'd pick the toy over the treat any day, (and believe me I've used some YUMMY stuff, but she just prefers her toys).

I am in agreement to use that ball on a string as a reward,,I'd tease him with it, get him revved up for WANTING THAT BALL,,give him a command as in "sit", he sits,,throw the toy,,that kind of thing..


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Stark is not toy or food motivated at all... sucks for training.

What I find works well for him is engagement. What I mean by this is pushing him back, letting him jump on me, running from him, jumping at him and just "wrestling" with him for lack of better words.

He really craves the interaction and it seems to work.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Victor is not food motivated at all. I don't train with treats anyway. It might take a little longer to learn training but I want them to do the commands to please me not to get a treat. My male dog was kept treat hungry by the training facility he came from but I kept up his training by his tennis ball. He will do anything for his tennis ball. My little one will do her training with any she is playing with a the time.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

Kokoda isn't food motivated at all either. I use her chuckit balls - it takes longer to fine tune things (exact positioning, etc), but the basics come quickly. She will do anything for her ball, and it actually holds her focus for longer, I can get her to do a much longer series of behaviors for one chuck of the ball, when I would have to use a bunch of treats.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JustMeLeslie said:


> I don't train with treats anyway. It might take a little longer to learn training but *I want them to do the commands to please me not to get a treat.*


Um, that's really not how using treats to train works, and no, you don't need to have treats with you forever for the dog to comply with commands either.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> *Um, that's really not how using treats to train works*, and no, you don't need to have treats with you forever for the dog to comply with commands either.


 
The reason I said this was because my male was underweight when I got him. He came from a training facility that fed a poor diet and kept their dogs hungry on purpose. They underfed him to keep him hungry so he would be super obedient so they could sell him easier. These guys are in it for a profit. We had to put about 15 lbs on him when we got him home. He would scarf down treats or anything. He ate like a horse when we got him home and always looking for more. He was afraid of a water hose because they sprayed him down everyday in his kennel. He had sores,flaky skin and grooming issues. We were newbies at the GSD so we did not know a lot about them we assumed he was healthy. That is why I like to teach without treats. These issues with him is how I found this site. I know there are trainers and people out there that do use treats for training the right way but it was different in our case. After all these are people who told me to beat him and put him to sleep when I called asking for some advice on him. I am not meaning any of this to be rude or to be preceived as rude. I just wanted to give some back story on him.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm surprised to hear about all these dogs who aren't motivated by food. In 10 or so years of teaching classes, I have only run across two dogs who truly had extremely low food drive. One was a Sammy/Chow mix and the other was a Shar Pei. The Sammy/Chow was free fed and lived with "grandma" who would cook all sorts of things for her every day though, so I suspect her issue was more learned than anything. All of the other dogs who's owners said they "didn't like food" did fine with the right treats and/or some minor adjustments to their environment.

The biggest thing that hurts food drive is free feeding (leaving food out for prolonged periods of time). Free feeding also seems to create poor feeders. Beyond that people sometimes unintentionally encourage dogs to be picky about their rewards by teaching the dog if he holds out you'll keep offering something better and better. In a way this can devalue food as a reward, much the same way as free feeding does.

Certainly dogs all have a lot of difference in their levels of food, toys and
prey drive. But you can always improve on what you have. 

Providing the always eats his meal well. The first thing I would do
would be to start using his meals for all of his training instead of feeding him out of a dish. This sort of thing can encourage dogs to value food a lot more by having to work for it. If you sometimes can't use it all for training some days, it's ok to give him a lighter meal from time to time. If you can't use it all most days, give him the last of it in a food puzzle toy so he still has to "work" for it.

Keep sessions very short at first - have him work for 5-10 rewards (1-3 pieces of kibble would equal a reward) at a time but aim for lots of these very quick sessions every day. Sessions like this are very easy to work into any routine. 


If the dog doesn't eat his meal well, your first question should be if his food may be making him feel icky. Sometimes dogs who don't eat well are trying to tell us their food doesn't agree with them. Imagine if your meals every day were always the same thing and always gave your bad stomach cramps or even just made you feel general malaise. This sometimes is the case with dogs. I know a dog who was a bad eater his whole life, despite the owner trying multiple different kibbles. He also had some skin, allergy and immune issues (hypothyroid). For 10+ years he ate just what he had to and didn't like treats much either. Then when he was 11, the owner tried feeding him a diet of just green tripe and what a difference! He now is eager about his meals, eats everything and likes treats. He has also improved some healthwise. Likely he had a food intolerance that didn't cause some of the more noticeable issues like loose stool but made him feel poorly. I had a dog myself that was a picky eater, also a dog with allergies until I put him on raw food.

If you don't believe the dog's food isn't agreeing with him, your first step in increasing your dog's food drive (and making your life easier) is to teach your dog to eat. This article outlines what to do pretty well: TeachEat

Well meaning owners very often teach their dog to be weird about food. The dog doesn't eat a meal or two or doesn't eat well so the owner worries and starts adding "extras" to make the food more appealing. The dog may eat better for a bit then go back to eating poorly again. The owner then adds more stuff and tries to encourage the dog to eat with handfeeding. This starts a bad cycle of the dog holding out for more but worse, it adds a lot of stress to the mealtimes. I have seen dogs who actually became afraid of their bowl because of how much anxiety the _owner _would develop around dinner time. No doubt the dog didn't want to eat - the dog didn't even want to be near the kitchen when the dinner time ritual started. There was nothing wrong with the dog, other than having owners who worried a bit too much about why the dog would sometimes choose not to eat all of his dinner. And the dog was able to be "rehabbed" into a normal eater, once the owners were "rehabbed" into acting normal about feeding the dog


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

There is nothing wrong with using toys to train dogs. It is a bit harder to do but I know a lot of people who use toys (a ball or a tug) to train, myself included. Every dog is different. Not ALL training has to be done using food/treats.

This member did not ask how to train their dog using food/treats. They asked; 



rosswaa said:


> i want to teach my dog things like drop it and leave it but he really doesnt care about treats at all, never known a dog like him just isnt bothered by food
> his favourite toy is a ball on string, but im not sure how to incorporate that into his training
> 
> do i give it to him or throw it for him, how long does he get it for? these sort of things i cant find out about


So maybe (if you know) we can offer advice on how to help this member train a "drop it" or "leave it" command using the dog's favorite toy. A ball on a string.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

PS. I actually prefer training with toys now that I have used this method with Dalton. In my experience, some dogs are motivated by play far better than by food PLUS play holds their interest much longer. Of course, some dogs are motivated far better by food. But as I keep saying - all dogs are different.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Vinnie said:


> PS. I actually prefer training with toys now that I have used this method with Dalton. In my experience, some dogs are motivated by play far better than by food PLUS play holds their interest much longer. Of course, some dogs are motivated far better by food. But as I keep saying - all dogs are different.


 Toys are great for training in drive. However, when teaching new behaviors from the start, toys generally give you a much lower rate of reinforcement and a much greater time between repetitions. This makes the learning process go much slower and can make teachings some behaviors very difficult. Ideally, one would want to work towards a dog who find both treats and play/toys to be rewarding. Like I said, you can improve on on what you have as far as drive goes.

An example is that I introduce agility equipment and behaviors such as 2o2o using food. I need a higher rate of reinforcement and to work on more precision than just toys would allow. Once the dog is confident and consistent, my preference is to use a toy to reward. I also use the toy to teach weaves because it encourages more speed, drive and takes the focus off the handler. 

Is the OP just looking to teach their dog to drop their ball on the string? Or what do they want the dog to leave? Leave it or Drop It can mean many things to different people.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> Toys are great for training in drive. However, when teaching new behaviors from the start, toys generally give you a much lower rate of reinforcement and a much greater time between repetitions. This makes the learning process go much slower and can make teachings some behaviors very difficult. *Ideally, one would want to work towards a dog who find both treats and play/toys to be rewarding.* Like I said, you can improve on on what you have as far as drive goes.
> 
> An example is that I introduce agility equipment and behaviors such as 2o2o using food. I need a higher rate of reinforcement and to work on more precision than just toys would allow. *Once the dog is confident and consistent, my preference is to use a toy to reward.* I also use the toy to teach weaves because it encourages more speed, drive and takes the focus off the handler.


I use treats AND toys the same way. Best to have both rewards in my bag of tricks. Tiny treats (real treats, real small, HUNGRY dog) can be rewarded fast, swallowed fast, and training can immediately continue so dog is still focused and learning.

I'm all about the toy because of the excitement and drive it can add for the training. But a rousing game of tug as a reward is a HUGE break in the training. As is throwing a ball out and away from me (and what we were working on). 

So I use the treats (clicker too  ) a ton when teaching the finer details and building on a new behavior. But once they get it, it's all about the toy/tugging to reward for a good behavior and to keep the dog interested in continuing the session. Nice rewarding break as a reward.

100% of the time when I've seen treats not work:


Dog isn't hungry (skip meal before training, 2 meal if that works better) you should be using tons of rewards so your dog isn't starving, and you feed normal meal AFTER the session
Handler uses low value treats (to the dog). Doesn't matter if I pay $20 for some great dog treat, if my dog isn't interested it's low value TO THEM. Generally my fridge and my food is WAY higher value to my dogs than anything in the dog food aisle/pet store. Hotdogs, sharp stinky cheese, liverwurst, MEAT and MEAT, tortellinis, pizza.....
*Handers do not treat frequently enough. *Using treats is FEEDBACK to our pups that they are brilliant! And if instead of using the treats constantly (in the beginning) so our pups learn to engage and keep trying cause a treat will come in a sec, we only reward a FINAL behavior every 3 or 4 minutes when WE think they FINALLY got it right. Heck, you rather get a paycheck every week or every other month!
Look how frequently this training is milking the treats out for her puppy, this is the ideal way to get our dogs used to the treats-as-reward. Once the puppy 'gets' it' then we don't have to use them as fast/frequent. But you only know they are 'getting it' when they ARE with your and jumping on you/at you/with you IF YOU ARE TREATING WITH REAL TREATS FREQUENTLY ENOUGH.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Is it really that hard to give this member advice on training with a toy?  

MRL, do you know of any videos that show training with a ball? OP has already stated that the basics are trained and is looking for a step above the basics. Thank you.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Vinnie said:


> Is it really that hard to give this member advice on training with a toy?
> 
> MRL, do you know of any videos that show training with a ball? OP has already stated that the basics are trained and is looking for a step above the basics. Thank you.


Both the videos I showed also have the handlers using toys. And if anyone would rather continue to only use a toy, WHEN and HOW you use it as a reward for a training behavior is exactly the same.

Only the training/learning is going to take vastly more time because playing with a toy, no matter what toy, if it's really going to be a clear reward, is going to take up more more of your training 'time' than the training.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I use toys alot when working Masi on new things like I said before, she would MUCH rather have a toy reward than food,,here's a couple of things I did, (take em for what they are worth))

I get a nice fast, focused heel, stuffing her frisbee under my armpit, (beware, I've been 'nailed' a few times by an ambitious "gimme that frisbee dog!") 

So you could use your 'ball" make sure your dog 'sees' where you have that ball...heel a bit, throw the toy...(hopefully your dog has a good retrieve and drop?) 

You might find out having "two" of their favorite toys, works well in getting them to retrieve/drop it..toss the other.. 

I have also taught her (with the frisbee),,if I am going to thro it, she has to bring it back, circle me, and drop it at my feet...I have worked a really good solid, down /stay, throw her frisbee, and she can't move until I release her) drives her nuts but it's teaching her self control I think

I'm not sure 'what' you want to teach using a toy as a reward, can you be more specific on things you want to teach??


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Diane, the OP did mention "drop it" and "leave it" in the first post.


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## LincolnGSD (Oct 19, 2010)

One of my males was similar - could walk past food for a day or so with complete disinterest. We tried different food, mixing it with water, etc. but he ate purely out of necessity. I did what JustMeLeslie describes above - my dog would pant and drool for a blue racquetball. He would chew and chew on it until it popped. Fortunately I played daily at the time so we didn't have any shortage. Five years later, we tore up an old back deck and found dozens of them. 

Anyway, the ball was his treat. He responded well, but I prefer treats - not as slimy.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

rosswaa said:


> i want to teach my dog things like drop it and leave it but he really doesnt care about treats at all, never known a dog like him just isnt bothered by food
> his favourite toy is a ball on string, but im not sure how to incorporate that into his training


To teach Drop It with a toy:

First step - buy a second ball on a string.  Let him start playing with the first one and then show him the second one. Wait for him to drop the first one THEN throw the second one. While he's going after it pick up Ball #1 and repeat the whole thing.

Once he starts spitting out the ball as soon as you show him the other one add the command. Say Drop it, show him the second ball, say YES! and toss the ball when he drops the first one.

I taught Mauser how to drop things (Aus) by playing tug with him. Once I got him good and revved up I would freeze and wait for him to let go of the toy. I would say Good Aus and then re-engage him with the tug. He quickly learned that the game would stop but only when he dropped the tug would it restart.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Both the videos I showed also have the handlers using toys. And if anyone would rather continue to only use a toy, WHEN and HOW you use it as a reward for a training behavior is exactly the same.
> 
> Only the training/learning is going to take vastly more time because playing with a toy, no matter what toy, if it's really going to be a clear reward, is going to take up more more of your training 'time' than the training.


Thanks MRL. I didn't bother to watch the full videos. First one is mostly treats/food up to the first 3 minutes and second starts out the same - mostly all treats so I didn't bother to finish watching that one either because it just seemed like more on treats/food rewards.

It may take more time training with a toy but for *some* (not all) dogs it works better. Believe it not, some dogs just do not respond for treats like others do and sometimes for those dogs training using food/treats takes much longer than just pulling out a toy. But that's just my opinion. 



JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm not sure 'what' you want to teach using a toy as a reward, can you be more specific on things you want to teach??





rosswaa said:


> He has just turned a year, he has some of the basics but I want to put him to work now properly


Diane, good question. The "leave it" and "drop it" were mentioned in the first post but later the OP mentioned "work now properly". Can we ask what that means to you, rosswaa? Then maybe we can give you some more/better direction.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Vinnie said:


> It may take more time training with a toy but for *some* (not all) dogs it works better. Believe it not, some dogs just do not respond for treats like others do and sometimes for those dogs training using food/treats takes much longer than just pulling out a toy. But that's just my opinion.


Very often food issues are fairly easy to change and certainly worth while from both a training and a care standpoint. Which is why I posted the article on teaching your dog to eat. It is much easier to develop better food drive in a dog than better play drive because all dogs need to eat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had a dog that didn't care about food or treats or toys as a youngster. I had to train her using only praise. She turned out to be the best dog ever. (She is dead now, so I do not have to worry about getting home to a big pile of rubble because I said that.)

Then one day she started enjoying toys, and when she was about four, treats became her favorite thing. So don't give up on treats, try to reintroduce them later on.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> Very often food issues are fairly easy to change and certainly worth while from both a training and a care standpoint. Which is why I posted the article on teaching your dog to eat. It is much easier to develop better food drive in a dog than better play drive because all dogs need to eat.


Maybe the OP's dog has a food issue, I'm not sure as he/she hasn't been back to respond. Speaking for myself, there is no food issue for my dog. My dog doesn't have any problem eating his meals. I don't need to teach him how to eat he already knows.  I guess I just have a different opinion than you on this topic - is that ok?  There's room for both opinions, isn't there? I know many people who use toys (tugs and balls) in training (in fact I'm not the only one in this thread). It's not harmful in anyway. In fact it's called "motivational" (not compulsion or forced training) as I said earlier. I currently have 3 dogs. 2 have been trained using food/treats. 1 is trained using toys. For that one dog, treats/food didn't cut it but toys did. Not all dogs are alike just like not all people are alike.  Some dogs learn differently just as some people learn differently.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ahh Debbie, what I get for not going back and 'reading"

I agree with Vinnie above^^..Masi doesn't have a food issue, the dog is a hog, when it comes to training, tho she will take a food reward,,she is MUCH more pumped up, enthusiastic over a toy than food...If I put food down and a frisbee down, she will go for the frisbee)

She is the first dog I've had that has been MUCH more toy motivated than food, so it's been a learning curve for me..

The "drop it",,I use two of the same thing, she drops one, she gets the other,,I then transfer that to 'anything' else she picks up, she drops THAT, and gets what she really wants.

"Leave it",,since she's not so food motivated,,I use food for the 'leave it',,and I admit I torture her with stuff),,,I'll put her in a down stay, and put food starting a foot from her, tell her to leave it, give her her toy reward,,then I transfer that to leaving her toy, or other things.

Granted sometimes these can be a work in progress, and they take some time training, but these dogs are sooooooo smart, it's also teaching them some self control


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

selzer said:


> I had a dog that didn't care about food or treats or toys as a youngster. I had to train her using only praise. She turned out to be the best dog ever. (She is dead now, so I do not have to worry about getting home to a big pile of rubble because I said that.)
> 
> *Then one day she started enjoying toys, and when she was about four, treats became her favorite thing. So don't give up on treats, try to reintroduce them later on*.


Think that was more what I was trying to hint about. Just because your dog currently doesn't like treats, doesn't necessarily mean they can NEVER be added to your training bag of tricks. Specially because much of the time changing how you use treats or WHAT you are using as treats can show an immediate spark of interest.

I'd have shown the exact same videos for a dog that refused to use a toy cause I think the more training tools we can use, the easier it is for our dogs and ourselves.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

My youngest dog was way more into toys than food when she was a baby but I have made sure that both were rewarding for her. IMO using one or the other is a problem because it can be quite limiting depending on what you want to train the dog to do. A friend was brining a very intense dog to my house for agility practice but no toy drive had been developed. The dog wouldn't work for toys but she was food obsessed, so we used small food stuffed Kongs to start to build toy drive. If the dog had only worked for toys, we would have done things to develop food drive. Food drive IME is generally much easier to develop than toy drive in adult dogs. 

Here is my youngest at 5 months old working for a toy:





And for treats as a 12 month old:
http://www.youtube.com/user/NPuccini#p/u/5/UjWE4yLtfiI


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## LincolnGSD (Oct 19, 2010)

AgileGSD, I love your dog's energy. I'm partial to black German Shepherds myself, even though only 1 of mine was black. Very nice work with her.


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