# Failure to thrive



## Jchrest

Is this a thing in puppies? I’m at my wits end. Seiran has not been gaining any weight, and has in fact been losing weight. 

She was seen by the vet weekly for this, who is also concerned, so a full blood panel, stool and fecal sample were run on her. She came back negative for all parasites (including the two I can never spell giardia and coccida?), no tapeworm, or other internal parasites. Had stool samples from all 4 dogs sent to the lab as well, they are all clear. literally all blood and stool samples sent to the lab came back negative. No food allergies, no grass allergies, no anything. Sonogram and X-ray done to make sure there was no internal blockage as a precaution. Kidney and liver enzymes and functions normal, blood count normal. 

You can see all her ribs at this point, and just starting to see her hip bones and spine. She was originally on 4 cups of Fromm large breed puppy, and was fine. Started noticing a little weight loss and stupidly assumed it was a growth spurt, increased her food to 5 cups. Still losing. Vet recommended increasing to 6 cups, and adding in eggs and sardines (rinsed and dried). Still losing weight. Increased her to 7 cups per meal, and then increased the frequency from 3 times a day to 6 times a dayS Put her on a prescription food in between regular meals, still losing. Switched her completely to prescription food, with the same feeding schedule above, still losing. Decreased her activity levels, still losing. She is down to 26lbs. We had her teeth checked because of the jaw injury, thinking maybe it was causing her pain, but teeth are fine, and she doesn’t have any issue eating. 

She’s always been given probiotics, we do not train with treats because she is more toy driven. If she wasn’t my dog, and I saw her in someone’s yard, I’d likely call AC for a wellness check. 

Her activity levels are still through the roof, and she plays, trains, and acts completely fine. Coat is still shiny, but is beginning to have a rough hay like texture. I just really don’t know what to do. The vet has sent all her lab work, xrays, and sonograms to a colleague for second opinions. The waiting is killing me, I can just watch the weight drop off. The vet kept her for three days to evaluate her, monitor her vitals and food intact, and she dropped weight in their care as well. 

Has anyone experienced this? Have any recommendations within a days drive for a specialist if my vet can’t get answers? I’m in southern AZ. This is well beyond the normal lanky stage as they hit growth spurts and shoot up and not out.


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## Femfa

Has she been tested for EPI?


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## Jchrest

Yes, it was the first thing they tested for after all internal parasites. She also has no issues with loose stools or diarrhea. She has normal, firm, formed stools.


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## Custom Billet

That doesn't sound like a failure to thrive? If she is happy, playing and training, she has good energy. If she was laying on the living room floor all day refusing to eat, I would see that as a failure to thrive.

How old is she?

How does her poop look?

Mine has always been thin. No matter how much I feed her. I had her eating a pound of NW Naturals beef, per meal, 3 times a day and putting boiled sweet potatoes on top. No weight gain. She just has a fast metabolism.

You can try raw, but it takes a lot to put weight on them. When I went to Ziwi, that is what finally got her to fill out. People still give me crap about her being too thin, but I think she is just right. Shasta is 19 months and 62 pounds or so.


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## Jchrest

She was born March 3rd of this year, so just at the 6 month mark.

Stools are perfectly normal. Solid, well formed. 

I didn’t look up failure to thrive, just was the closest comparison I could think of. I didn’t know it was possible in dogs. 

I wouldn’t be so concerned if a) my vet wasn’t concerned and b) she’s experiencing fast constant weight loss. She went from 46lbs to 26lbs in a month and a half.


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## Sunsilver

Okay, I may be wrong...but I'm going to bet there is NOTHING wrong with her, other than she's a normal, healthy, active dog who's going through the 'bottomless pit' stage of development. Keep feeding her, loving her, maybe TRY to decrease her activity a bit so she's not burning so many calories. Eventually, her metabolism will slow as her growth slows, and she will gain weight.

I've seen SO many similar posts by people worried about their young, growing dog's weight, and 99% of the time there is NOTHING wrong with them.

I have to confess, this is a pretty extreme case, though, but since her energy level is good, I think she's okay. The rough coat could be because this is SHEDDING SEASON. I have been up to my armpits in dog hair for over a month now, and the old coat does feel a little rough as it is about to shed out.


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## Jchrest

Sunsilver said:


> Okay, I may be wrong...but I'm going to bet there is NOTHING wrong with her, other than she's a normal, healthy, active dog who's going through the 'bottomless pit' stage of development. Keep feeding her, loving her, maybe TRY to decrease her activity a bit so she's not burning so many calories. Eventually, her metabolism will slow as her growth slows, and she will gain weight.
> 
> I've seen SO many similar posts by people worried about their young, growing dog's weight, and 99% of the time there is NOTHING wrong with them.


I’ve seen the plethora of posts as well, and all the pics posted look like normal awkward lanky stage. Seiran’s body scale according to the vet is at a 2 right now. And I know growth spurts can cause some skinniness, but dropping 20lbs in a month in a half seems outside the norm. Those posts always said there dogs weren’t gaining, but they weren’t losing either. 

I fully appreciate the feedback though, and will cross my fingers that this is all it is.


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## Custom Billet

Wow, that is a big drop!

You might want to stop with the probiotics to see if it makes a difference? Give her some raw commercial beef or Ziwi. The beef seemed to have the most fat in it to get Shasta to put weight on. Every time I tried something different, she would always loose weight. 

Every time I mentioned RX food, my holistic vet laughed. It is just a rip off.


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## Dunkirk

Have you considered a false negative on the tests? Maybe redo some of the tests and send to a different lab.


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## Jchrest

Dunkirk said:


> Have you considered a false negative on the tests? Maybe redo some of the tests and send to a different lab.


I’m thinking that will be my next step. That or ask my vet for referral to a specialist. She eats all her food like she is starving. Which is what she looks like. I was tempted to put one of the adults large bowls in her crate, fill it to the brim, and let her free fed, but I also don’t want to make her sick either. 

I’ve been in touch with her breeder, and she hasn’t had any of the other owners in this litter with this issue. DH’s best friend also has a pup from the same litter, though his is a male, and he’s doing fine too. I started to think it may be something in my home causing this, but all the other 3 dogs are fine, no weight loss at all. Plus she is always supervised, or crated when she cannot be supervised, so I would have noticed if she was getting into anything the other dogs weren’t. 

My mind just keeps spinning trying to figure this out.


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## Sunsilver

I don't blame you for being concerned. I would be too!

Stools are completely normal, correct? 

The only thing I can think of to cause such severe weight loss is Epi, but if stools are normal, that ain't it, even if there were a false negative on the test!


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## Jchrest

Sunsilver said:


> I don't blame you for being concerned. I would be too!
> 
> Stools are completely normal, correct?
> 
> The only thing I can think of to cause such severe weight loss is Epi, but if stools are normal, that ain't it, even if there were a false negative on the test!


Completely normal. She got diarrhea once in the month and a half, and it’s because DH felt bad, and gave her a hamburger from In and Out while I was at a dr’s appt. He got a nice chewing out for that one.


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## Shane'sDad

Jchrest said:


> I’m thinking that will be my next step. That or ask my vet for referral to a specialist. She eats all her food like she is starving. Which is what she looks like. I was tempted to put one of the adults large bowls in her crate, fill it to the brim, and let her free fed, but I also don’t want to make her sick either.
> 
> I’ve been in touch with her breeder, and she hasn’t had any of the other owners in this litter with this issue. DH’s best friend also has a pup from the same litter, though his is a male, and he’s doing fine too. I started to think it may be something in my home causing this, but all the other 3 dogs are fine, no weight loss at all. Plus she is always supervised, or crated when she cannot be supervised, so I would have noticed if she was getting into anything the other dogs weren’t.
> 
> My mind just keeps spinning trying to figure this out.



I'd ask for a referral to a gastro specialist or (since I've had good luck w/NC State over the years) contact a Vet teaching college if there's one close to where you are....and maybe start from square one with the blood work again I've been through the gangly-awkward -lanky teen age phase where they look under weight as their body goes through a growth spurt but not a 20 pound loss !!....if you're sure all the math is right I'd want some other eyes on the dog--loosing 20 lbs ??.-something HAS to be wrong--thyroid-something...eating as much as she is---is she making a "ton" of poop ?-like her bodies not absorbing any of the nutrients from the kibble.? .....just trust your gut and ask for a referral.....


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## CometDog

Sunsilver said:


> I don't blame you for being concerned. I would be too!
> 
> Stools are completely normal, correct?
> 
> The only thing I can think of to cause such severe weight loss is Epi, but if stools are normal, that ain't it, even if there were a false negative on the test!


With that kind of weight loss I am asking my vet to check for EPI again, or go to a different vet. I had a friend with a female GSD that was like that. Vet would not entertain the DX because her stools were normal. Well, it was still EPI. Something is wrong. A young dog doesnt drop 20 lbs in a month and change for no explainable reason, especially in the face of increasing intake and not being overweight in the first place.


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## CometDog

Jchrest said:


> She was born March 3rd of this year, so just at the 6 month mark.
> 
> she’s experiencing fast constant weight loss. She went from 46lbs to 26lbs in a month and a half.


Which dog is this? How old? 56% weight loss in 6 weeks...that isn't a dog "that tends to be thin". Please everyone, read posts carefully before dismissing something like this as a naturally thin dog like yours. I know you all mean well but plenty of people (not talking about OP) will come here for advice instead of a vet and...well, you know. Unless it was an obese dog on a new super strict diet...even then this would be a feat of loss.

Definitely keep pressing, maybe a second opinion or specialist is in order.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I assume you are absolutely positive none of the other dogs are stealing her food?


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## Thecowboysgirl

And, in conjunction with other dogs not stealing her food are you absolutely certain she isn't vomiting or regurg somewhere and maybe someone other than her is eating it back up in a snap?


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## Chuck94!

Puppy weights tend to fluctuate - but I agree, I would also be concerned with a 20lbs weight loss at 6 months old


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## Chuck94!

CometDog said:


> Which dog is this? How old? 56% weight loss in 6 weeks...that isn't a dog "that tends to be thin". Please everyone, read posts carefully before dismissing something like this as a naturally thin dog like yours. I know you all mean well but plenty of people (not talking about OP) will come here for advice instead of a vet and...well, you know. Unless it was an obese dog on a new super strict diet...even then this would be a feat of loss.
> 
> Definitely keep pressing, maybe a second opinion or specialist is in order.


Exactly. Losing 20lbs in one month as a 6 month old puppy is not normal.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I don't have the specifics handy but I have a dog that tested positive for EPI but it was a false positive. The way I understand it, from spending time in the EPI community, that there is only one lab that they accept a diagnosis from and they say the others simply aren't reliable. I am not sure but I think a dog can have normal stools on EPI. 

If I were you, I would try digestive enzymes on your puppy. You can purchase them online without a prescription at a reasonable price and are safe. If you are interested, send me a PM and I will give you more information and links.


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## Jchrest

Dogs are fed separately, and watched. I take them outside within 15-20 minutes of eating, pups first, then the big dogs. She is definitely not regurgitating it, that’s a noise that’s impossible to miss even if my eyes lost sight of her. 

She is the 6 month old black GSD. Well, now mostly a deep brown. 

The only changes in the house have been Crios being neutered, because I will not have the physical strength to keep him away from Seiran if necessary when she goes into heat, and Crios is past the 2yr marker. Seiran is now the only intact dog. And obviously the foster turned permanent Floki, but this started before his arrival. 

They all did get a viral infection that the vet explained as the human equivalent of the flu, they all reverse sneezed for a week or two, and that was it. Floki had eye and nasal discharge, but that quickly went away. Full blood panel on him as well, including a distemper test. 

We live in a crappy town. It’s quantity over quality in almost every area across the board. My vet is great, and is not from here. She relocated after a lung issue, and was told she needed a dry climate. Welcome to the desert! Anyway, I would have already taken Seiran out of state, or at the very least, into northern AZ for a second opinion if this vet was born and raised here. I know that sounds horrible, but unless you’ve been to Yuma, it’s something you would have to see to believe.

Crios has always been thin, but nothing like this. He has started to fill in, whether due to the neuter or age, I couldn’t say for sure. 

Sorry, just trying to give as much info as possible. Yes, the numbers were correct, she has lost 20lbs in 6-7 weeks. She has had a few growth spurts and is taller, but again, this is well past the gangly stage.

I’ll start researching GI specialist in AZ, CA, and NM and see if I can’t get her in ASAP. If anyone has recommendations in either of those three states, I’d love to hear them!


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## Saco

The math isn't making sense. My very active, muscular, intact boy who is in his prime (100 lbs) now eats about 6 cups a day of Canidae, which is pretty calorie dense food per cup. He runs about 10 miles a day with me- to define very active.

Is she absolutely taking in and pooping out all this food? 

If so, she clearly isn't absorbing nutrients for some reason. I don't know much about EPI- but I see no harm in trying digestive enzymes.

I would think, though, that there is something pretty serious going on internally that is preventing her system from either absorbing or processing nutrients. I'd take her to a specialist, and soon. Vet teaching hospitals can be good bets- I don't know Arizona at all so can't help with that.

I know Colorado has a good teaching hospital if you want to make the trip. Also heard great things about Cal Davis. 

Have you dewormed her with all the types of dewormers just in case? I had a GSD with whipworm and after several tests we finally caught it- but there were many false negatives prior to that and she was skinny- 48 lbs but her healthy weight was 75. I can't think what else could be wrong except, unfortunately, something pretty serious like autoimmune etc. However, if she is bright, active, and eager to eat, with formed poops, that's a bit strange. 

Take her to a specialist. That's my advice.


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## Saco

Hey one more thought. I am not from Arizona but I have worked close to there and been through Yuma. I'm sorry to say I hated it - all I remember is how hot and dry and flat it was and that my poor dog burned his feet walking to the river. I am not a desert person... 

Have you tested for Valley Fever?


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## Jchrest

All 4 dogs have been through 4 dewormings. We couldn’t deworm her as a pup because of the jaw injury, and her vaccinations were not started until later as well. She is UTD on all vaccinations now, including a one year rabies. All 4 dogs were given two different types of deworming as a precaution when this started happening, vet said some parasites are difficult to pick up, and it wouldn’t hurt to try. We sent stool samples to their out of state lab, both before and after the deworming, nothing picked up on any of the 4. 

I’ll check into Cal Davis, thanks for the suggestion. I have no issue with traveling to get her to someone who can help. Well, I can’t take her personally, but DH can.


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## Jchrest

@Saco, that’s Yuma! I hate it too, but DH cannot move until his daughters graduate, so I’m making the best of it that I can. 

I’m not sure if valley fever was checked for. I’ll call her vet when they open at 8 to check. They ran so many different panels on her, I can’t remember them all. I know EPI was checked, parasites, kidney/liver function, blood count, But it was a $400 lab bill, so I would hope they checked for all possibilities, but I’m not sure. That’s horrible, I should be sure. It’s just all so much at once I can’t seem to retain everything.


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## Jchrest

I watch them eat so they don’t cross bowls. The big dogs are fed in a separate room, and the pups are fed in the same room, but apart from each other. I literally just sit and watch because Seiran will run to Floki’s bowl and try to eat his food before she eats her own. They are on the same food, but Seiran gets triple the amount Floki gets. 

She is not as active as your GSD, between the heat and my surgery, no possible way to run her. She is high energy, and we play a lot of catch, flirt pole, inside scent work, things that essentially can be done outside at night, or indoors. I attached the info on the Fromm she’s on, I’ll be honest, I’m not great at breaking down calorie content, I went with the Fromm because it was all Lyka did well on, so when we got the pups, we just went with the puppy version of what I feed my adults.


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## dogma13

The shepherd I had before Samson had a problem keeping weight on.He was eating well and had good energy like your dog but he began to look emaciated.Out of desperation I began feeding him home cooked meals and giving him Prozyme(over the counter med for pancreatic function).He began filling out.I gradually got him back on kibble,but in a senior blend that was easier to digest along with the Prozyme.The vet wasn't able to diagnose EPI either,but he obviously wasn't able to absorb the nutrients he needed.That worked for Dakota anyway,so it's something for you to ponder.


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## Jchrest

Oh, stools have been normal, as in not increased size or amount, except when we have her at 7 cups like we do now, she goes 4 times a day instead of 3. My adults go twice, Floki goes 3 times. Not large piles, no visible food chunks in there like she is not digesting and pooping out whole pieces of food.


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## Magwart

I would run a tick panel on her -- there are several tick diseases that can interfere with food absorption and cause a dog getting normal rations to become emaciated. At early stages they may not have other symptoms, but life-threatening ones come in later stages. For a full tick panel, blood has to be sent out to a lab and takes about a week to get results.


Even though you may not normally have many ticks, last year was a wetter-than-normal year in most of the West, so they may have been popping out in the Spring and early Summer even in places where they aren't normally common.


If there's really no disease and it's a fast metabolism issue, we use Diamond Naturals Extreme Athlete to put weight on hard-keepers in the rescue. It's higher calorie than some other options. I think Victor might have a similar type of high-cal food too. I think you have more going on than food if you're feeding the recommended amount on the bag and still loosing that much weight -- it's common to have to feed more than recommended to a young, active adolescent, but the kind of weight loss you describe just seems wrong.


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## Jchrest

Magwart said:


> I would run a tick panel on her -- there are several tick diseases that can interfere with food absorption and cause a dog getting normal rations to become emaciated. At early stages they may not have other symptoms, but life-threatening ones come in later stages. For a full tick panel, blood has to be sent out to a lab and takes about a week to get results.


I’m waiting on a call back from the vets office to see if any tick related illnesses were checked for. They did sent both blood and stool to an out of state lab. I’ll update when they call back.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Jchrest said:


> Dogs are fed separately, and watched. I take them outside within 15-20 minutes of eating, pups first, then the big dogs. She is definitely not regurgitating it, that’s a noise that’s impossible to miss even if my eyes lost sight of her.
> 
> She is the 6 month old black GSD. Well, now mostly a deep brown.
> 
> The only changes in the house have been Crios being neutered, because I will not have the physical strength to keep him away from Seiran if necessary when she goes into heat, and Crios is past the 2yr marker. Seiran is now the only intact dog. And obviously the foster turned permanent Floki, but this started before his arrival.
> 
> They all did get a viral infection that the vet explained as the human equivalent of the flu, they all reverse sneezed for a week or two, and that was it. Floki had eye and nasal discharge, but that quickly went away. Full blood panel on him as well, including a distemper test.
> 
> We live in a crappy town. It’s quantity over quality in almost every area across the board. My vet is great, and is not from here. She relocated after a lung issue, and was told she needed a dry climate. Welcome to the desert! Anyway, I would have already taken Seiran out of state, or at the very least, into northern AZ for a second opinion if this vet was born and raised here. I know that sounds horrible, but unless you’ve been to Yuma, it’s something you would have to see to believe.
> 
> Crios has always been thin, but nothing like this. He has started to fill in, whether due to the neuter or age, I couldn’t say for sure.
> 
> Sorry, just trying to give as much info as possible. Yes, the numbers were correct, she has lost 20lbs in 6-7 weeks. She has had a few growth spurts and is taller, but again, this is well past the gangly stage.
> 
> I’ll start researching GI specialist in AZ, CA, and NM and see if I can’t get her in ASAP. If anyone has recommendations in either of those three states, I’d love to hear them!


I have actually had dogs regurgutate pretty quietly. No heaving. Quick and quiet. I have walked into my kitchen to a pile of puke and missed hearing it from one room over with no door. Had one do it two weeks ago after he ate unripe blackberries and tummy hit eject. 

Just a thought, since like others said the math not really adding up. She is on a high cal kibble?

I recentlt discovered by accident that Alpo crap canned food has huge calorues in it. Just happened to read the label when it came with a boarder. Want to say nearly 1000 cal in a can which is way more than what I usually see in a regular can of dog food. 

If shebwere mega e I guess you would have seen her do it at some point but it is the only other explanation I could think of for why she seems to not be "getting" her food and you have a lot of dogs.


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## Magwart

By the way, I believe that the VCA regional specialty hospital in Albuquerque is EXCELLENT. It's 5 hours from my summer place, and I drove there almost weekly when we were battling my dog's eye melanoma. They have an internal medicine specialist there who does gastroenterology stuff -- though it's not the person we saw:
https://vcahospitals.com/veterinary-care/specialty/services
https://vcahospitals.com/veterinary-care/specialty/services/internal-medicine


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## Jchrest

Magwart said:


> By the way, I believe that the VCA regional specialty hospital in Albuquerque is EXCELLENT. It's 5 hours from my summer place, and I drove there almost weekly when we were battling my dog's eye melanoma. They have an internal medicine specialist there who does gastroenterology stuff -- though it's not the person we saw:
> https://vcahospitals.com/veterinary-care/specialty/services
> https://vcahospitals.com/veterinary-care/specialty/services/internal-medicine


Thank you! I have a call into them now.


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## Jchrest

This is the way the dogs are fed. Separate, under constant supervision. When Seiran finishes her first bowl, we give her a second bowl. When we tried to feed in two bowls, she started inhaling the food rather than chewing it. 

https://youtu.be/guVzKJ63s98


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## Thecowboysgirl

Jchrest said:


> I watch them eat so they don’t cross bowls. The big dogs are fed in a separate room, and the pups are fed in the same room, but apart from each other. I literally just sit and watch because Seiran will run to Floki’s bowl and try to eat his food before she eats her own. They are on the same food, but Seiran gets triple the amount Floki gets.
> 
> She is not as active as your GSD, between the heat and my surgery, no possible way to run her. She is high energy, and we play a lot of catch, flirt pole, inside scent work, things that essentially can be done outside at night, or indoors. I attached the info on the Fromm she’s on, I’ll be honest, I’m not great at breaking down calorie content, I went with the Fromm because it was all Lyka did well on, so when we got the pups, we just went with the puppy version of what I feed my adults.


Does that say 380 something per cup? Pic is fuzzy for some reason. If so there are definitely way higher cal kibbles you could put her on.

Victor High Energy just lost 50 cal per cup with thebformula change. I think the Purina sport food is higher.


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## cvamoca

Jchrest said:


> Oh, stools have been normal, as in not increased size or amount, except when we have her at 7 cups like we do now, she goes 4 times a day instead of 3. My adults go twice, Floki goes 3 times. Not large piles, no visible food chunks in there like she is not digesting and pooping out whole pieces of food.



Can you post a picture of her? A picture is worth a thousand words.


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## Jchrest

@Thecowboysgirl, yes, it’s 384 per cup.


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## Jchrest

It’s hard to see because she is black, but I’ll post what I can.


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## Jchrest

I’m not sure if you can see or not? In person it’s easily her ribs, in pictures it looks like wave in her coat.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Or what are those things called...satin balls?


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## Jchrest

This is the deworming meds that are the “just in case” I was sent home with to deworm all the dogs. I did a horrible edit job to cross out the vets name, didn’t know if it would break forum rules to post a pic with her name on it?


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## Magwart

That's a very basic dewormer--it's what shelters here use because it's cheap, but I often have to do it again with a better dewormer. 

The problem with Strongid is that it doesn't cover some types of worms. Its active ingredient is Pyrantel and gets rounds and hooks...but not whips. Panacur (fenbendazole) covers more types of worms, including whipworms -- but it has to be given 3 days in a row and costs a little more. Liquid panacur is a lot cheaper than the flavored granules -- but it has to be squirted into the mouth and tastes terrible. The gold standard dewormer is Drontal Plus (a tablet combo drug of three different dewormers (praziquantel, pyrantel, and febantel)), but it's the most expensive (maybe $30?) but only takes one dose -- it gets everything though (even tapes).


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## JonRob

This is not a growth spurt. Something is seriously wrong with Seiran, and if someone doesn't figure it out she will probably die.

You are a highly intelligent, experienced dog owner who accurately observes what your dogs do, so I know Seiran hasn't been puking her guts out or spewing out diarrhea.

I have some experience with this kind of thing (too much!), and this is what I recommend.

*First, and most important, Seiran may have Addison's disease. Addison's disease can affect any breed of dog, regardless of age. It is not the most likely possibility here but it is the most lethal. If she has Addison's disease and crashes and is raced to the emergency room, there is a 50% chance she will die. To diagnose this, the vet needs to an ACTH stimulation test, which involves drawing blood, injecting the dog with ACTH, and drawing another blood sample 2 hours later. This needs to be done ASAP. If your vet refuses to do it or doesn't have the ACTH needed to do it, find another vet who will do it immediately. Addison's disease is treatable, although the treatment is lifelong.*

Get an abdominal and cardiac ultrasound from a vet who has a good-quality ultrasound machine and knows how to interpret the images correctly. Seiran may have some kind of internal mass. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't have the specifics handy but I have a dog that tested positive for EPI but it was a false positive. The way I understand it, from spending time in the EPI community, that there is only one lab that they accept a diagnosis from and they say the others simply aren't reliable.


You are correct. Test results can be wrong.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think a dog can have normal stools on EPI.


Right again--in early EPI, this can happen.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> If I were you, I would try digestive enzymes on your puppy. You can purchase them online without a prescription at a reasonable price and are safe. If you are interested, send me a PM and I will give you more information and links.


An excellent suggestion. Even if Seiran does not have EPI but something like inflammatory GI disease, these digestive enzymes can help her absorb her food. At worst, they won't hurt unless she is allergic to pork (and then you can try beef-based enzymes). I would order them now and start Seiran on them. Make sure they are shipped with a cold pack, as heat during shipping will wreck the enzymes. These enzymes are *not* the same as Prozyme.

Take in a very fresh fecal sample and have your vet send it out for an IDEXX diarrhea RealPCR test. This will test for weirdo gastrointestinal parasites.

Have Seiran tested for heartworm and tick diseases. Your vet should have done this in their office using the SNAP4-DX. Tick diseases can cause just about anything. If she tests negative, it's still worth putting her on doxycycline and seeing if she responds. Many tick diseases haven't been discovered yet, and the ones that have been can hide in the organs and not show up in the blood.

Make an appointment now with a board-certified veterinary internal medicine specialist for a GI endoscopy and biopsy. You can always cancel this if you fix the problem before then.

Also, stop deworming the crap out of Seiran. Unless she has an enormous load of worms, there is no way worms could cause this kind of severe weight loss. Also, totally wiping out worms can cause the dog's body to go nuts and attack itself since it has no worms to attack, causing inflammatory GI disease.


----------



## Jchrest

Magwart said:


> That's a very basic dewormer--it's what shelters here use because it's cheap, but I often have to do it again with a better dewormer.
> 
> The problem with Strongid is that it doesn't cover some types of worms. Its active ingredient is Pyrantel and gets rounds and hooks...but not whips. Panacur (fenbendazole) covers more types of worms, including whipworms -- but it has to be given 3 days in a row and costs a little more. Liquid panacur is a lot cheaper than the flavored granules -- but it has to be squirted into the mouth and tastes terrible. The gold standard dewormer is Drontal Plus (a tablet combo drug of three different dewormers (praziquantel, pyrantel, and febantel)), but it's the most expensive (maybe $30?) but only takes one dose -- it gets everything though (even tapes).


Thanks Magwart! They all have been dewormed with a different med at the vets, spaced 3 weeks apart(if I remember correctly). This one was the just in case one. I’ll ask my vet about the drontal plus, I’m assuming it’s only available via prescription? I also don’t know if it will have any negative interactions with their monthly tick/flea/heartworm chewables.


----------



## Jchrest

@JonRob, thank you for the information. I have a call in to setup an appt with the GI dr Magwart suggested that is in New Mexico. The vet did do xrays and ultrasound (sonogram), and no internal obstructions were found. Obviously I’m totally okay with getting a second, or even third opinion if necessary, but all the suggestions are appreciated so I know what tests to ask for. 

I did get a call back from my vet, and they did test for tick borne illnesses. She’s supposed to email me the list of tests performed by her office, as well as the lab screens from the out of state lab they use. I’ll post those if allowed. 

I already placed an order for the enzymes MOWL recommended. 

I was starting to think maybe I was just crazy, I’m glad I posted. 

Thank you all for the suggestions and recommendations, I’ll keep the thread updated as I get more info.


----------



## JonRob

Will your vet do the ACTH stimulation test for Addison's disease?


----------



## Jchrest

JonRob said:


> Will your vet do the ACTH stimulation test for Addison's disease?


She does not have the ACTH available to test today, but has a colleague shipping her some to run the test on Friday. She is experienced in the testing, it’s just not something they keep on hand. We will be bringing her in Friday morning for that, and another run of bloodwork and stool to be sent to the lab. I’m assuming the GI Specialist Magwart suggested will not be available immediately, but my vet has been in contact, and sent Seirans medical records, xrays, and lab reports to their office. Hoping to hear back soon as to when they can get her in. But I will try the enzymes as soon as they arrive. 

Should I even consider switching her food to a higher calorie food? Mix in some of the canned food of the Alpo cowboysgirl said has a 1,000 calories per can? I’m afraid that will cause an upheaval when she is already not doing well. But if Fromm isn’t supplying her with the necessary calories, a switch would be better, no? 

I hate the idea of sending her with DH, but I just cannot travel that distance. Small in town trips are a stressor for me physically. I’ll have DH call me and put me on speaker, it’s the only thing I can think of. He’s not dog savvy in anyway. He loves them now, but doesn’t really understand them. Can’t read body language to save his life, but he is trying. He helps with exercising, training (still needs more training himself, but we cut back the one on one training with Jake to once a week for financial reasons).


----------



## sebrench

I imagine that your vet has already ruled this out, but some of the symptoms of diabetes in dogs are weight loss, increased appetite, excessive thirst, and increased urination. It'd be easy enough to check her blood glucose levels, if it wasn't already done in her lab work. Probably not likely in Seiran's case because she is so young, but couldn't hurt to rule it out.


----------



## JonRob

Jchrest said:


> She does not have the ACTH available to test today, but has a colleague shipping her some to run the test on Friday.
> 
> We will be bringing her in Friday morning for that, and another run of bloodwork and stool to be sent to the lab.


Excellent.



Jchrest said:


> Should I even consider switching her food to a higher calorie food? Mix in some of the canned food of the Alpo cowboysgirl said has a 1,000 calories per can? I’m afraid that will cause an upheaval when she is already not doing well.


Try a food switch, but not Alpo canned. Canned dog food routinely causes diarrhea, probably because it's too much meat and has lots of liver. I would try this one:

Royal Canin *SMALL* Digestive Care Dry Dog Food

Yes, I mean small. 537 kcal/cup. Available at amazon and chewy.

I've had dogs do very well on this. 

Also, although it's not high calorie, I've also seen dogs that tend to lose weight do well on Pedigree Puppy dry food, believe or not. I go with whatever works.


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## Jax08

You should ask the vet about the enzymes when you make the appt. Taking them may skew the results. With that weight loss, there is something seriously wrong.


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## Thecowboysgirl

It might be worth seeing if your vet has the "Urgent Care" food, it's an RX food for dogs in distress, calorie dense, super digestible, super palatable. I think it's Hills A/D?

Just as a supplement to try and keep her going while you find the cause


----------



## LuvShepherds

Is your dog an American Showline? They can look extremely skinny, then fill out between 12-24 months.


----------



## JonRob

LuvShepherds said:


> Is your dog an American Showline? They can look extremely skinny, then fill out between 12-24 months.


I've had several very nice American Showline GSDs and I'm familiar with the flat phase many go through.

JChrest's dog is not going through a normal flat phase. Her dog went from 46 lbs to 26 lbs in a month and a half. This is a very sick 6-month-old dog.


----------



## cvamoca

Jchrest said:


> I’m not sure if you can see or not? In person it’s easily her ribs, in pictures it looks like wave in her coat.



I hated to "like" that. 

Yes, she's very thin and she has a "starry coat" of a worm load or something serious happening. She's sick. I'd be at the vet yesterday. I know you will as well. If you aren't happy with your vet, go somewhere else, they should catch this.


----------



## Pytheis

I think there is something wrong and it’s not just lanky puppy. I’m sorry both of you are going through this. My last puppy had a mystery illness that the vets couldn’t solve when he was 6 months, and it didn’t end well. I know the worry you’re going through.


----------



## Jchrest

Thecowboysgirl said:


> It might be worth seeing if your vet has the "Urgent Care" food, it's an RX food for dogs in distress, calorie dense, super digestible, super palatable. I think it's Hills A/D?
> 
> Just as a supplement to try and keep her going while you find the cause


That is the RX food we used between meals, and then for a week straight as her meals. She lost the most amount of weight on this. It’s also the food they had her on when she broke her jaw and I was tube feeding her. She lost weight then as well, and started putting it back on when we were able to switch her to a slurry of the Fromm, then started having again, was perfect until a little after 4 1/2 months when she then started losing weight on the Fromm.

We stopped the slurry when her muzzle was removed and she went right back to moisten kibble with no problem, then just straight kibble.


----------



## Jchrest

cvamoca said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m not sure if you can see or not? In person it’s easily her ribs, in pictures it looks like wave in her coat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hated to "like" that.
> 
> Yes, she's very thin and she has a "starry coat" of a worm load or something serious happening. She's sick. I'd be at the vet yesterday. I know you will as well. If you aren't happy with your vet, go somewhere else, they should catch this.
Click to expand...

We have an appt on Friday for her regular vet and are re-runnning her blood work, and doing the ATCH test. We are in the process of getting setup with a GI specialist in New Mexico. Thanks again @Magwart for the recommendation. Our vet is in contact with the office, and has spoken with the GI Specialist and sent over all her results and medical records. 

Out of curiosity, what is a “starry coat.” I haven’t heard the phrase before.


----------



## Jax08

LuvShepherds said:


> Is your dog an American Showline? They can look extremely skinny, then fill out between 12-24 months.


She's lost 20# in the last 6-7 weeks. 26 lbs? At her age? that's not skinny and needing to mature. That's sick.


----------



## Jax08

I believe that EPI dogs can sometimes have solid stool? how about checking her B12 levels?


----------



## LuvShepherds

Jax08 said:


> She's lost 20# in the last 6-7 weeks. 26 lbs? At her age? that's not skinny and needing to mature. That's sick.


It is. I didn’t see the numbers. I should have read more carefully.


----------



## Jax08

LuvShepherds said:


> It is. I didn’t see the numbers. I should have read more carefully.


I had to read thru twice to see the numbers. It's kind of lost in the posts.


----------



## CometDog

Like I said in my early post (yes it is hard to keep track of all the posts  ) I absolutely know a dog that had EPI and solid stools. In fact it was overlooked for too long simply based on normal stool. They "can" have greasy stool. It is not an absolute.


----------



## Magwart

JonRob said:


> Have Seiran tested for heartworm and tick diseases. Your vet should have done this in their office using the SNAP4-DX. Tick diseases can cause just about anything.


Actually, the SNAP4-DX test only tests for 4 common tick diseases -- with a sick/emaciated dog, I wouldn't waste the money on it unless you're going to just view it as a temporary answer. If one hasn't already been run, I'd spend the $100 or so on the full tick panel, which requires a vial of blood being sent out to a lab and waiting for results (IDEXX, I think, but it might have been a university vet school that ran it for us). That panel will test for things like Babesia, which aren't part of the SNAP in-house test. 

I've seen a lot of Babesia dogs that look just like that -- and you can feed them endless amounts of food, with none of it making any difference. We had a full-grown male Malinois that was down to 20-odd pounds when we got him (from a 60-ish pound ideal weight). They often have vague abnormal values in the bloodwork that causes some head-scratching until connected to tick disease -- like low platelets or RBC. Babesia does NOT respond to Doxy, so I wouldn't randomly throw doxy at this dog without a diagnosis (this particular tick diseases requires a compounded med usually used to treat malaria--dogs won't get the right meds without the right diagnosis). It's crazy hard to treat until you zero in on exactly what the problem is.

As for heartworm, those dogs don't get emaciated. When they go into caval syndrome with advanced disease, they actually get swollen, bloated-looking bellies, filled with fluid. I've seen way too many of them, unfortunately. I wouldn't have that high on my list of concerns.


@*Jchrest* I'm really interested to hear what the Internal Medicine specialist at VCA figures out. I'm glad your vet is already in touch with them! (PM me if you want suggestions of reasonably priced hotels that permit large dogs when you go there. We often had to drive in the night before our appointment.)


----------



## Jchrest

CometDog said:


> Like I said in my early post (yes it is hard to keep track of all the posts /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif ) I absolutely know a dog that had EPI and solid stools. In fact it was overlooked for too long simply based on normal stool. They "can" have greasy stool. It is not an absolute.


I took a pic of her last BM, not sure if anyone wants me to post it though!


----------



## Koda'sMom

I’m late to the “party” but she does sound very ill. I don’t have much advice to add but that in the last year I’ve been dealing with some sporadic digestive problems and and weight loss with my girl. No real diagnosis but we have seen real improvement with regular B-12 injections. My vet is awesome and he let me purchase the bottle and leave it there so I can just drop in free of charge for the monthly injections vs buying each individual one and having extra charges. 

All that said, pictures of the BM could be beneficial for second “opinions”


----------



## JonRob

Magwart said:


> Actually, the SNAP4-DX test only tests for 4 common tick diseases -- with a sick/emaciated dog, I wouldn't waste the money on it unless you're going to just view it as a temporary answer. If one hasn't already been run, I'd spend the $100 or so on the full tick panel, which requires a vial of blood being sent out to a lab and waiting for results (IDEXX, I think, but it might have been a university vet school that ran it for us). That panel will test for things like Babesia, which aren't part of the SNAP in-house test.


The advantage of a SNAP4-DX test is you get some answers in 10 minutes. I absolutely agree that a full tick panel should be done as well. 

@*Jchrest*, I think a full tick panel was done? Any results back? 



Magwart said:


> Babesia does NOT respond to Doxy, so I wouldn't randomly throw doxy at this dog without a diagnosis


I know three dogs whose lives were saved by "randomly throwing" doxy at them. All of their tick tests were negative, but that does not mean they didn't have tick diseases. And many tick diseases do respond to doxy.


----------



## cvamoca

Jax08 said:


> She's lost 20# in the last 6-7 weeks. 26 lbs? At her age? that's not skinny and needing to mature. That's sick.


I know I'm replying to an offshoot but I just had a thought, not sure what it means. Did she start losing weight- if 6-7 weeks ago, around the time that Floki came? They developed a respiratory disease of unknown etiology just after that, and if so, is it possible that whatever it is that's made her sick has something to do with his arrival ? 

With chickens and other birds, we have Mycoplasmas, both M.Synovae and M. Gallisepticum which cause a variety of respiratory and synovial fluid symptoms, isn't curable or even treatable except by Tylosin (Tylan) or Baytril (?), and they often develop failure to thrive, and slowly die of starvation, all while eating voraciously. 

It is not something often tested for, and while it doesn't really jump species exactly, there are other Mycoplasmas that DO affect dogs. The article I'm reading keeps incorrectly calling it a bacteria, it really has more likeness to a virus than a bacterium.

I just had that thought, given the snots and respiratory symptoms they had when Floki came, Mycoplasmas aren't commonly tested for. I think a simple ELISA test will pick it up though. If I have a chicken necropsied at the pathology lab, I have to ask them for this test as well as the more dangerous diseases--Mycoplasma can also affect humans.

Does Seiran have any fever, even a low grade one?


----------



## Jchrest

cvamoca said:


> Jax08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's lost 20# in the last 6-7 weeks. 26 lbs? At her age? that's not skinny and needing to mature. That's sick.
> 
> 
> 
> I know I'm replying to an offshoot but I just had a thought, not sure what it means. Did she start losing weight- if 6-7 weeks ago, around the time that Floki came? They developed a respiratory disease of unknown etiology just after that, and if so, is it possible that whatever it is that's made her sick has something to do with his arrival ?
> 
> With chickens and other birds, we have Mycoplasmas, both M.Synovae and M. Gallisepticum which cause a variety of respiratory and synovial fluid symptoms, isn't curable or even treatable except by Tylosin (Tylan) or Baytril (?), and they often develop failure to thrive, and slowly die of starvation, all while eating voraciously.
> 
> It is not something often tested for, and while it doesn't really jump species exactly, there are other Mycoplasmas that DO affect dogs. The article I'm reading keeps incorrectly calling it a bacteria, it really has more likeness to a virus than a bacterium.
> 
> I just had that thought, given the snots and respiratory symptoms they had when Floki came, Mycoplasmas aren't commonly tested for. I think a simple ELISA test will pick it up though. If I have a chicken necropsied at the pathology lab, I have to ask them for this test as well as the more dangerous diseases--Mycoplasma can also affect humans.
> 
> Does Seiran have any fever, even a low grade one?
Click to expand...

That is definitely something I’ll look into, and talk to the vet on Friday during her appt. She has had no fever, unless it’s missed in between appts. They did twice daily temp checks when she was in vet care for the three days, and never presented with a fever. 

It’s so frustrating. She literally has no symptoms, just the constant weight loss. 
@JonRob, yes, she was tested for tick borne illness with both the blood work done at the lab, and the snap test at the office. Still waiting for the email from the vet with all the medical records that include all tests performed in office, and all tests done by the lab.


----------



## Jchrest

Koda'sMom said:


> I’m late to the “party” but she does sound very ill. I don’t have much advice to add but that in the last year I’ve been dealing with some sporadic digestive problems and and weight loss with my girl. No real diagnosis but we have seen real improvement with regular B-12 injections. My vet is awesome and he let me purchase the bottle and leave it there so I can just drop in free of charge for the monthly injections vs buying each individual one and having extra charges.
> 
> All that said, pictures of the BM could be beneficial for second “opinions”


These are the two BM’s she’s had today. Lyka has her paw in the second pic.


----------



## cvamoca

Jchrest said:


> We have an appt on Friday for her regular vet and are re-runnning her blood work, and doing the ATCH test. We are in the process of getting setup with a GI specialist in New Mexico. Thanks again @*Magwart* for the recommendation. Our vet is in contact with the office, and has spoken with the GI Specialist and sent over all her results and medical records.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what is a “starry coat.” I haven’t heard the phrase before.


 "Starry/starey" coat is an old time equine term describing an animal with a poor hair coat, which often (but not always) is caused by a high parasite load. 

It is also seen in horses with Cushings or Equine Metabolic Disease, which is I think very similar to EPI? 

Apologies for missing that, I'm off and on the computer. Poor Seiran...


----------



## Koda'sMom

This may sound very odd @Jchrest but do you happen to know what the actual texture of the BMs are?

The reason I ask is because when Koda was ill she would have poops that would look completely normal until you went to pick it up and it was all mush. There was was a partial diagnosis by a different vet previously, because she was really sick when we were out of town, of an overgrowth of normal gut bacteria. I’ll look back and see what exactly it was called but it was wreaking havoc on her weight, coat, and digestion. The meds they gave for her helped temporarily before I was able to get in to my normal vet. 

But I digress, anyways texture of BMs can tell you a lot about what’s going on in that system


----------



## Jchrest

@Koda’smom, I’m not sure what you mean by texture? I’ve never dissected poop, so what should I be looking for? Just for it to be firm all the way through? Like if I poke it with a stick, does it turn mushy, or just break into pieces?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Jchrest said:


> @Koda’smom, I’m not sure what you mean by texture? I’ve never dissected poop, so what should I be looking for? Just for it to be firm all the way through? Like if I poke it with a stick, does it turn mushy, or just break into pieces?


Lol! And here I thought you were an experienced dog owner! (Just kidding) Seriously, how have you managed to get this far without ever having to dissect a poop? :wink2:


----------



## cvamoca

Koda'sMom said:


> This may sound very odd @*Jchrest* but do you happen to know what the actual texture of the BMs are?
> 
> The reason I ask is because when Koda was ill she would have poops that would look completely normal until you went to pick it up and it was all mush. There was was a partial diagnosis by a different vet previously, because she was really sick when we were out of town, of an overgrowth of normal gut bacteria. I’ll look back and see what exactly it was called but it was wreaking havoc on her weight, coat, and digestion. The meds they gave for her helped temporarily before I was able to get in to my normal vet.
> 
> But I digress, anyways texture of BMs can tell you a lot about what’s going on in that system


I admit to blowing up a picture of said dog poop, looking for squishy insides or worms. All I saw was...well you know. Dog sh_t.

Jchrest, time to pop your poop cherry. Break it down. 

Look for undigested particles, worms, eggs, etc. 

Suggestion--Breathe through your mouth, take pictures if you can and blow them up. 

Is she overly thristy, does she urinate much? You might have answered, I was looking at dog poop, and playing with a crazy puppy. Who's 2 months younger and quite a bit over Seiran's weight. I hope you can turn this around...really sorry she's a beautiful dog.

If she's literally starving, her energy should be low. Does she worry? Does she play hard with the other dogs?


----------



## Jchrest

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Koda’smom, I’m not sure what you mean by texture? I’ve never dissected poop, so what should I be looking for? Just for it to be firm all the way through? Like if I poke it with a stick, does it turn mushy, or just break into pieces?
> 
> 
> 
> Lol! And here I thought you were an experienced dog owner! (Just kidding) Seriously, how have you managed to get this far without ever having to dissect a poop? /forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_wink.png
Click to expand...

I let the vets do it for me! Lol. 

I did check all their poop after the first round of deworming, to see if I could see any spaghetti noodles, because roundworm was the only thing they tested positive for, and fresh poop is always kinda mushy, to me at least. And I never saw a noodle out of any of their poop.

When I had Lyka and Crios in the apartment, and would have to pick their poop up with a bag, it was always warm and mushy. Not diarrhea mushy, just, well, not really sure how to explain it. Formed turds, pick up the fresh pile, it was warm and squishy. 

I have Crohn's disease, and am used to examining mine to watch for signs that I need to go in immediately, but still have never dissected it! I let the doctors handle that part. 

Guess I’m just weird about poop.


----------



## Jchrest

First, thank you for the laughs, so needed right now! The edit reason made me laugh out loud. 

I vow to dissect the crap out of crap tomorrow when it’s daylight and a fresh doo has been dropped. I’ll video it, just ignore the dry heaving sound in the background.


----------



## cvamoca

Jchrest said:


> First, thank you for the laughs, so needed right now! The edit reason made me laugh out loud.
> 
> I vow to dissect the crap out of crap tomorrow when it’s daylight and a fresh doo has been dropped. I’ll video it, just ignore the dry heaving sound in the background.



If it's any consolation, I had a hen sh_t on my head tonight when I was closing up the barns. 

Not the nice hard ones they do-- the wet, mustard coloured stinky cecal poop, they have 2 or 3 of those a day, they reek. Chicken people will recognize that stinking gross mess.

I dress for the barn in the most ridiculous outfit including mosquito net hat because my hair is long, I don't want bugs on me, and didn't I reach up and touch it to "see", and it was so much worse than I'd hoped. Then it starting running...
All I could do was scrub my head off on a barn wall, drop hat- hose hands, hose hat...hose barn wall and dry heave a bit.


It was a poopy day.


----------



## Jchrest

I may hate you all right now. I took the duke piles from the pictures and put it on a piece of cardboard and attacked it with a stick. I’ll do the same tomorrow with a fresh pile. No worms, but I assume I’d only find them if it was a fresh pile? It was a normal consistency I’m assuming. Not wet or loose on the inside, but it has been a few hours. Normal dog crap smell. I didn’t see anything odd with the exception of two things:

There is a lot of hair/fur strands in the poop. Not a mass of it, just strung throughout it. It’s white, so I’m assuming it’s from her and Crios rough housing. 

DH is obviously not watching her as closely as I am, because there was black charcoal in the second one. I freaked out at that, until I saw the fire place grate pushed open, and a log missing from the fire place, and scanned the yard. Found the log with the bottom portion missing. That poop part was sandy, is the best way I can explain it. Like broke apart right away when I poked it. Kinda gritty like you would see with activated charcoal. 

I don’t know what kind of tree the log came from, we usually bring back a load of the trimmed fruit trees with us when we go to CA, the caretaker saves them for us. So peach, pear, nectarine, plum, apple, black walnut. It smells better than commercial wood when we burn it in the winter. This is the first time I’ve seen the grate open. He kept an eye on the dogs while I had school conferences for my girls today. 

But here is a pic of the “dissected” pile. 

Her energy is fine, she plays and rough houses with Crios mainly. Occasionally with Floki, but he’s not fun to play with, he gives up and walks away. Crios will rough play with her for an hour straight if I let them. Lyka has no use for her and gives a low growl if Seiran gets in her bubble. All the dogs know when momma doesn’t want to play. 

She is pretty high energy, high drive. She won’t stop playing until you tell her it’s time to stop. She will give you the tug, ball, stuffy on the end of the flirt pole with the out command, but won’t settle until they are out of sight. She swims with Crios and Floki when DH gets home. He tosses balls and tugs in the water for them to retrieve. She usually gets the zoomies after pool time, so she runs around the yard and the deck steps with Crios for about 30 minutes after pool time, with some dips in between to cool off. 

When we reduced her activity, it was torture. She was a butthead because she had all this energy she couldn’t get out. We did a week of no activity (lots of crate time and slow controlled walks). She still dropped 6lbs that week, so the vet said to go ahead and let her resume activity, just try to scale it back some, so we’ve been more focused on mental stimulation with training and inside scent work and hide and seek with the girls. Still gets tug time because she will start getting mouthy if we don’t. She’s crated every two hours for 30 minute intervals. Usually she’s only crated at night, or on the rare occasions I leave the house. She comes out of her kennel like a circus clown shot out of cannon. 

She does get the hiccups more often than the other dogs. And burps, but the other dogs do the same. 

She does go straight for the water and drinks a fair amount before going outside for bathroom break first thing in the morning. She’s always done this since she’s been potty trained and not carried outside. Floki does the same as well, the adults pee first and then drink. 

Now I’m just rambling, sorry. Have a hard time sleeping and my brain goes into the exhausted overdrive mode.


----------



## Jchrest

I used to wear a scarf tied over my head when I would feed my grandmothers birds in the walk-in aviaries. By the time I was done, the scarf was covered in different sizes of bird crap. The cockatoos seemed to save it all up and wait for me to bring the food in, and would just let er rip all over my head and shoulders. I hated those two. They were mean as satan. 

I get the chicken poop too, she had chickens, and we have about 55 on the property in CA, so me and the girls would collect the eggs in the morning. They would crap on us from the high roosters every single time.


----------



## Koda'sMom

Soooo having had a dog with a sensitive tummy for almost a decade, most of that in apartments or traveling with her, I have become very comfortable with using poop bags to check the poops. I’ll try to describe what I look at without getting too graphic lol

First is color and shape, is it all one color or patchy, solid logs or loose plops. 
Second is moisture content and viscosity, does it look shiny and fresh or like a pile that’s been sitting for a day or 2, when you pick it up does it stay together or fall apart, how much residue is left on the grass etc. 
Third is looking closely at it and kinda mushing with your hands, do you see any flecks or particles, odd mucus, blood, plant matter, and things like that. 

Hopefully that all makes sense seeing as I’ve been up for almost 24 hrs at this point after having only slept about 2 hrs off and on Tuesday night. Feel free to PM me if you would like a more detailed version off the poop check


----------



## Katsugsd

I would also be looking for anything shaped like grains of rice within her stool. I use a poo bag hold it and disect with my thumb (coverd by the bag). I'll use a second bag if I need two hands lol. and if you're like me, I would NOT recommend breathing though your mouth :grin2: (I can taste it and I gag).


----------



## Sunsilver

I've had cats with tapeworms. The segments are pretty easy to spot. And you do need to use a different wormer for tapes than for other types of parasites. 

I worked for a breeder for about a year. She had a Shiba Innu come in from Russia, and she was suspicious about whether he'd been properly wormed, as the breeder claimed. So, one of the first things she did was give him worm medication. 

Here's what I picked up off the kennel run the next day: The dog in question looked to be quite healthy, and had a normal energy level. Out of curiosity, I dissected the poop and counted over 30 round worms.


----------



## Pawsed

Can dogs get wasting disease?


----------



## Jchrest

Well, I think I may be getting used to handling poop by now. But this mornings pile was a bust, still had the charcoal in it. No worms, of any kind, and no loose or watery stool inside the poop, no signs of grass or any other plant matter. The non charcoal part of the poop was firm.

I’ve seen all types of worms, they are hard to miss when they are there. Spaghetti noodles for round, lasagna noodles on a thinner scale normally for tape, maggot or rice looking worms are hooks. And whipworms are weird, go from thick to very thin. So I guess in a way I have poop experience, but these have all been dead ones after getting a new dog in and deworming them. But I’ve always scooped and taken to the vet for dissection/diagnostics, and rely on that to tell me what type, and they deworm in the office, and send me home with the bottle for follow up dewormings at home. That’s when I see the worms, after they are already dead. 

The vet did say she had roundworms when her muzzle finally came off, and had me bring in samples from the other two, and said they had round as well. Then when I got Floki, she said he had round as well. All were dewormed, but never saw a dead one after the deworming. But the last samples I brought in last week all came back negative for parasites, so that was a little weird for me. Maybe they just had a very mild case of roundworm? 

Lyka and Crios were on the 6 month chewable, and still came back with roundworms, so I switched them to the monthly. All 4 dogs are on the monthly chewable, all have been tested for HW, and all came back negative. We retested when the roundworm was diagnosed. 

She’s out playing as happy as can be. Wrestling with Crios, annoying Floki. Lyka is in the fenced pool area with me. She’s the only non swimmer, so she gets this side of the fence so Seiran doesn’t drive her nuts. Lyka isn’t mean to her, doesn’t bite or roll her, you can just see the annoyance in her eyes and body language, and she’s old and deserves to not be pounced on by a hyper puppy. 

So everything normal in on this end this morning, other than the lack of weight. 

I did order the Victor Hi-Pro Plus, if the vet gives the go ahead, I’ll start a very slow switch. If she gives the okay for the enzymes, how long should I wait after adding that before I start the slow switch? I know I shouldn’t flood her with a bunch of new changes all at once.


----------



## JonRob

Again, there is no way worms can cause this kind of severe weight loss unless the dog is insanely infested with them, which would show up on a basic fecal exam.

JChrest, did your vet send out a really fresh fecal sample for an IDEXX canine diarrhea RealPCR? This is the best way to detect GI parasites, including weirdo ones..


----------



## Sunsilver

Exactly. The dog above wasn't skinny, despite the heavy worm load.


----------



## Jchrest

Still haven’t received the email with the lab work/results. She may just give it to me at tomorrow’s appt, but I do know they sent stool samples to the lab. 

I always bring in the morning fresh poop, and always have morning appts, so if she hasn’t had that test run, I can have them send it off tomorrow to run.


----------



## Saco

I find it very odd that she is energetic, eager to eat, and acting normally, just wasting away.

Any dog I had with tick illness or fungal disease were off their food, low energy, and just overall off.

I'd switch her food. Another good high energy food is Dr. Tim's Momentum. 

This must be very scary- I hope you find an answer soon.


----------



## cvamoca

Jchrest said:


> I may hate you all right now. I took the duke piles from the pictures and put it on a piece of cardboard and attacked it with a stick. I’ll do the same tomorrow with a fresh pile. No worms, but I assume I’d only find them if it was a fresh pile? It was a normal consistency I’m assuming. Not wet or loose on the inside, but it has been a few hours. Normal dog crap smell. I didn’t see anything odd with the exception of two things:
> 
> There is a lot of hair/fur strands in the poop. Not a mass of it, just strung throughout it. It’s white, so I’m assuming it’s from her and Crios rough housing.
> 
> DH is obviously not watching her as closely as I am, *because there was black charcoal in the second one. I freaked out at that, until I saw the fire place grate pushed open, and a log missing from the fire place, and scanned the yard. Found the log with the bottom portion missing. That poop part was sandy, is the best way I can explain it. Like broke apart right away when I poked it. Kinda gritty like you would see with activated charcoal. *
> 
> I don’t know what kind of tree the log came from, we usually bring back a load of the trimmed fruit trees with us when we go to CA, the caretaker saves them for us. So peach, pear, nectarine, plum, apple, black walnut. It smells better than commercial wood when we burn it in the winter. This is the first time I’ve seen the grate open. He kept an eye on the dogs while I had school conferences for my girls today.
> 
> But here is a pic of the “dissected” pile.
> 
> Her energy is fine, she plays and rough houses with Crios mainly. Occasionally with Floki, but he’s not fun to play with, he gives up and walks away. Crios will rough play with her for an hour straight if I let them. Lyka has no use for her and gives a low growl if Seiran gets in her bubble. All the dogs know when momma doesn’t want to play.
> 
> She is pretty high energy, high drive. She won’t stop playing until you tell her it’s time to stop. She will give you the tug, ball, stuffy on the end of the flirt pole with the out command, but won’t settle until they are out of sight. She swims with Crios and Floki when DH gets home. He tosses balls and tugs in the water for them to retrieve. She usually gets the zoomies after pool time, so she runs around the yard and the deck steps with Crios for about 30 minutes after pool time, with some dips in between to cool off.
> 
> When we reduced her activity, it was torture. She was a butthead because she had all this energy she couldn’t get out. We did a week of no activity (lots of crate time and slow controlled walks). She still dropped 6lbs that week, so the vet said to go ahead and let her resume activity, just try to scale it back some, so we’ve been more focused on mental stimulation with training and inside scent work and hide and seek with the girls. Still gets tug time because she will start getting mouthy if we don’t. She’s crated every two hours for 30 minute intervals. Usually she’s only crated at night, or on the rare occasions I leave the house. She comes out of her kennel like a circus clown shot out of cannon.
> 
> She does get the hiccups more often than the other dogs. And burps, but the other dogs do the same.
> 
> She does go straight for the water and drinks a fair amount before going outside for bathroom break first thing in the morning. She’s always done this since she’s been potty trained and not carried outside. Floki does the same as well, the adults pee first and then drink.
> 
> Now I’m just rambling, sorry. Have a hard time sleeping and my brain goes into the exhausted overdrive mode.



If she has a bad tummy, eating charcoal might be the smartest thing she can do, if it's "safe" charcoal. Probably by the time any wood is rendered down to charcoal it's likely safe, but I don't know that for sure. 

This is anecdotal info, but my sister's Weimeraner had terrible gut issues and nothing seemed to help--the vet finally told her to take him to the horse barn, and let him eat some horse manure. Whatever it did, it fixed his problem. 

Mine eat Pedro's poop and I don't try to discourage it, because I assume they are getting something they need. He's kept wormed so he also passes his worming off to the dogs as well.

My puppy occasionally barfs up hairballs just like a cat, she's obviously chowing down on Ellie when they are roughhousing, it's Ellie's hair.

That's all I've got, I hope the vet visit will give you some answers.


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## Jchrest

@Saco, I posted a few videos, I think a week or two back, where she is engaged with the flirt pole. That’s her normal energy level. We have to give her the “relax” command to get her to settle inside with the decreased activity we’ve been trying. She will go to her place and just be a wiggly warm with tail going a mile a minute, fully alert and looking for the next thing she can focus on. 

Floki is still low energy/low drive, he’d rather crawl into anyone’s lap sitting down and nap than play. He’s fine in walks, but not eager like Seiran is. But he’s perfectly healthy, weighed in at 57lbs at his last appt. 

It’s confusing, and I would expect Seiran to be acting like Floki and vice versa, but nope. It makes no sense to me either.


----------



## Jchrest

@cvamoca, I have horses in CA, also routinely vetted and shod, and that includes the deworming as well. I wouldn’t be opposed to having a few patties, but I won’t be up that way until early November for a deposition for the lawsuit. I can probably convince DH to go on a turn around trip to grab some, he’d just need to wait until my sister passes out drunk. Worth trying if it doesn’t hurt. Really at this point, I’m willing to try pretty much anything that doesn’t have risky side-effects.


----------



## Pytheis

I honestly don’t think a worm load is responsible for the weight loss. It seems highly unlikely that none of the fecal tests would come back positive if she had such a heavy load that she was losing that much weight. And if she was that infested, your other dogs would have it too. And since all of them have had fecals done multiple times, I feel confident saying worms are not the issue and you’re barking up the wrong tree and wasting money. I would rule out parasites if it were me, and I’d stop digging around in poop looking for “worm evidence.” ?


----------



## Buckelke

As Sherlock Holmes would say, "once you've eliminated everything else, what's left is probably the culprit'. Have you tried changing the dog food? You do hear of dog food with oddball stuff (i.e. poison) in it as filler. Have you eliminated a poison? Do your neighbors appreciate your pups? Maybe you could be testing for poisons? AT 91 posts it would seem we are running out of possibilities, but I haven't seen poison yet. I seem to remember you said you take her to the dog park - would not be the first time some horrible person decided it would be fun to put some poison out there. 



And no, you should not make a lot of changes all at once. Mix one thing half and half until you are totally on something new, then wait a few days to make sure it's agreeing with her. Then add something else the same way. And take a look at her bowl, too. Ellie's nose was a bloody mess until the vet suggested getting rid of the plastic bowl. Stainless was an improvement and ceramic people quality serving bowls seem to be the best. Who knows what chemicals are in those plastic bowls? 



Sure is a puzzle - for her sake I hope it's figured out soon. 



reading along....


Buck and Elke's mom


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## Koda'sMom

I have heard of tapeworms living farther up in the digestive tract not showing up on fecal tests


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## Jchrest

Nope, no dog parks. Hasn’t been near one. We do train outside the dog park when we get to training with heavy distractions, but she isn’t old enough for that yet, and it’s hot as all get out here. 

All the dogs have a “quiet command” in place, they really only bark when the doorbell rings, or when they get into heavy rough play, but a quiet commands stops it. So if a neighbor was annoyed, and threw some poison over, Seiran wouldn’t be the one to get to it first. That would be my fatty fat fat senior, who is also head bitch in charge. 

As for food, we have not tried switching as she did really well on it up until a month and a half ago. I’m pretty positive Fromm isn’t poisoning dogs with fillers, but I’m willing to switch to see if she just has an aversion to something in the food. Also, all the dogs eat the same food, so if it was a poison or ingredient killing her slowly, it would effect all the dogs, not just her.

I’ve received some excellent advice, have more information to talk over with my vet tomorrow, and HOORAY, I have an appt with the GI Specialist @Magwarts suggested. It’s been set for October 17th. 

I’ll do one more dissection this evening, it’s oddly been kind of satisfying mentally. I want to see a stool without the charcoal in it. Yes, I’m a weird one.


----------



## Jchrest

Oh, and we use stainless steel bowls, not sure where the plastic bowl came from? Unless you mean the water, those are in a plastic gravity water thing.


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## LuvShepherds

Not all worms are visible. Giardia? The vet uses a microscope when they examine poop.


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## Sunsilver

Ohhh, believe me, a dog with giardia will be SICK!!

Both of mine got it after falling through the ice into a beaver pond. The male decorated my rug, the front of my DVD player, and even somehow managed to splash diarrhea 4 ft. up the living room wall.

I was down on hands and knees cleaning it up, when my female also came into the living room, and upchucked all over the rug. 

Yeah, the ONLY rug in the house, and she had to choose it to be sick on! 
Of course, I grabbed her before she could finish, and made her do the rest on bare tile floor.


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## LuvShepherds

I have had two dogs with giardia with no other symptoms but lower weight, except once had a greasy looking stool and the other had occasional loose stool. Both were checked by the vet at different times for being underweight.


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## cvamoca

Sunsilver said:


> Ohhh, believe me, a dog with giardia will be SICK!!
> 
> Both of mine got it after falling through the ice into a beaver pond. The male decorated my rug, the front of my DVD player, and even somehow managed to splash diarrhea 4 ft. up the living room wall.
> 
> I was down on hands and knees cleaning it up, when my female also came into the living room, and upchucked all over the rug.
> 
> Yeah, the ONLY rug in the house, and she had to choose it to be sick on!
> Of course, I grabbed her before she could finish, and made her do the rest on bare tile floor.



Daisy bolted her food the other night, then jumped up on our bed and barfed it all up. Probably because we have unkillable old tile flooring!


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## LuvShepherds

cvamoca said:


> Daisy bolted her food the other night, then jumped up on our bed and barfed it all up. Probably because we have unkillable old tile flooring!


She wanted comfort. Mine run outside to barf, which would be better, except I like to check it to see what garbage they swallowed, or if it was due to something else.


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## Pytheis

I dunno. My opinion really doesn’t matter or mean much of anything, but I find it so hard to believe that 4+ tests (including the expensive one specifically for giardia) would all come back negative if the pup had giardia or something else. She would have to be loaded with it for it to make such a difference in her weight, so it seems like it would be extremely hard to miss in her and the other dogs.


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## LuvShepherds

That is true. Giardia is diagnosed by sight, using a microscope. They count numbers. They prefer a fecal float, but can use a SNAP. That can give false positives

https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/infectious-parasitic/c_multi_giardiasis

Fecal Flotation and Giardia Test


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## Jchrest

Pytheis said:


> I dunno. My opinion really doesn’t matter or mean much of anything, but I find it so hard to believe that 4+ tests (including the expensive one specifically for giardia) would all come back negative if the pup had giardia or something else. She would have to be loaded with it for it to make such a difference in her weight, so it seems like it would be extremely hard to miss in her and the other dogs.


That’s actually a good point I didn’t think of. If they somehow missed it on Seiran’s stool sample, wouldn’t my other dogs have it as well? Isn’t it super contagious? I don’t pick up the poop as soon as they poop, I do a once, sometimes twice daily sweep for poop. I’ve heard you have to pick up immediately if you have other dogs so it doesn’t spread. 

Off all the things I’ve researched, EPI sounds the closest, but she doesn’t ever have loose-stools or vomit. I’ve actually never seen her vomit with the exception of the first day or two of tube feeding, and that was because I was feeding too quickly. Vet had me bring her in and show her how I was feeding, and had me move from 30 minutes to feed, to 45-50 to feed, and the vomiting stopped. But since it seems the most likely, I think I will have the vet run one more test for it specifically, and the full run of blood, urine, and stool, sending all to the lab.


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## LuvShepherds

One had it here, the other never got it.


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## atomic

I am so sorry you and Seiran are going through this. I’m hoping for a diagnosis and treatment soon, sending good vibes your way.


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## GSDchoice

Me too...I've been checking in on this thread but have no useful knowledge to share at all. Just hope you will figure it out soon!


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## Jchrest

*Long update*

I love my vet. Medical records are a $55 charge, in addition to a $35 charge for lab results. So my vet sat with me from 7-8:30 going over all the tests run, and allowed me to write them down so I don’t have to shell out even more money. That didn’t include the time she spent examining Seiran. These are the following panels run, and what they test for. It’s a bunch of abbreviations, there is no way I could have written down all the info, but I can google them easily to get more clarification if I forget what was explained in today’s visit. 

CBC which tests for:
HCT
HB & MCHC
WBC
GRANS & L/M
EOS
PLT
RETICS
FIBR

Blood serum test which includes:
ALB
ALKP
ALT
AMYL
AST
BUN
CA
CHOL
CI
CREA
GGT
GLOB
GLU
K
LIP
NA
PHOS
TBIL
TOTAL PROTEIN
T4

EPI:
TLI

Tick borne Illnesses:
TBD
CANINE EHRLICHIOSIS
BABESIOSIS

Texas A&M was the lab that ran all the testing, all lab tests were run twice due to no abnormalities, but the fast weight loss.

The vets colleague looked over all lab work, ultrasounds, and xrays, and felt confident she was not suffering from Addison(sp?) disease because there would have been signs picked up on both the CBC and the serum tests, and nothing showed up. My vet did give me the option of having her colleague send the kits needed, but it’s well over $400.00. I know price shouldn’t matter when it comes to the health and well being of my dogs, but in the last 4 months, we have spent well over 6k in vet bills for lab testing, 24hr care, Seiran jaw injury, Lyka’s mesh surgery including removing the tumor and a spay, and having Crios neutered along with his recurring ear infections, the health scare with Floki and the blood labs for him including the distemper testing. 

That doesn’t include the 140,000k in medical bills for my surgery and follow up care. This will be reimbursed after the lawsuit, but we are making large monthly payments on it now. The mobility chair alone was $1,200 out of pocket. 

If I felt she was suffering in any way, I would push for additional testing and go into the super duper poor house, but she’s already had extensive testing done, with no abnormalities presenting. 

Also, SHE GAINED 4lbs since last Thursday! That alone helped make the decision to hold off on any additional testing. My vet agrees whole heartily with my decision, as we have no where to go other than repeat tests. I am still keeping the appt with the GI unless she regains the weight lost. The vet said sometimes unexplainable things happen, and we may never know the cause, but as long as she continues to gain, she is 100% healthy otherwise. 

She agreed with the enzymes and has a phone call out to the GI to make sure they will not affect any testing he may do, and she will give me a call and let me know. They should be arriving today or tomorrow, same with the Victor Pro Plus. We will do a week on the enzyme’s if given the go ahead, and if she has no reactions to it, we will start the slow switch to the Victor. 

I’m mentally and emotionally exhausted from all the craziness over the last 2 1/2 years. Some self inflicted because I just never learn from my mistakes. I’ve made a vow to stop stressing over what I can’t control, and enjoy what good things I do have going for me. I’m able to start exercising next month, so I will start with slow long walks and the flex bands I got from my PT, but can up the reps, duration, and tension. Getting active will go a long way towards my physical and mental health, and I can start working the dogs again once I get in a good place physically myself. I’ve made a promise to myself that if I can drop 30lbs in the next 6 months, I’m going to start real agility classes with Crios, and push myself out of my comfort bubble of being a hermit. 

So all in all, it’s been a crazy ride, but looks like it’s all uphill (in a good way) from here. Both for myself, and the health of the dogs. 

Thanks for sticking with me through all my mentalness, and thanks for all the amazing advice (even the tough “love” advice), and support these last few months.


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## Buckelke

Yes, I’m a weird one.[/QUOTE]


being a concerned mommy is not weird. I hope today all your worries and answered at the vet. Fingers crossed...


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## Jchrest

I meant weird one because I developed a fascination with dissecting poop after 2 times, when I’ve never done it before in my life. I did post an update on the thread.


----------



## CometDog

I came here just to see how your pup was doing  Glad to hear about the 4lbs. Such a mystery! I hope the gains continue.

I had a rescued English Mastiff once. She had been on the run for 8 months in the Pine Barrens. She had Giarda. An English Mastiff with Giarda is stuff of legend. I remember doing a FB post that said " there seems to be a little bit of rug on my living room puke"


----------



## Dunkirk

I love your vet too, sounds like my vet. The 4lb gain is great news! 

P.S. Using the camera feature on a mobile phone is a quick way to copy documents.


----------



## Jchrest

Dunkirk said:


> I love your vet too, sounds like my vet. The 4lb gain is great news!
> 
> P.S. Using the camera feature on a mobile phone is a quick way to copy documents.


Ha! I came in with a note book with all the questions to ask from suggestions on this forum, and I didn’t even think of using my phone. Would have saved me from having to read my shaky crappy handwriting! I already had pencil and note book in hand, so I just started writing ?. Great point for next time though!


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## Thecowboysgirl

4lb in a week sounds like a lot. Something must be working


----------



## Pawsed

You have certainly been through the wringer lately. So sorry for all your troubles. 

I'm very glad to hear some good news with the pup's weight gain. 

I hope your own recovery continues and that you will be back on your feet very soon.

Keep the good news coming!


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## Jchrest

We are staying optimistic, but still watching her like a hawk. We will be going in once a week for weight checks, and we switched the monthly chewable brand on the off chance that that’s the culprit. Vet recommendation as we need an RX for them. She got to full on play with her pack yesterday, and she just lit up like a Christmas tree!


----------



## David Winners

Sunsilver said:


> Ohhh, believe me, a dog with giardia will be SICK!!
> 
> Both of mine got it after falling through the ice into a beaver pond. The male decorated my rug, the front of my DVD player, and even somehow managed to splash diarrhea 4 ft. up the living room wall.
> 
> I was down on hands and knees cleaning it up, when my female also came into the living room, and upchucked all over the rug.
> 
> Yeah, the ONLY rug in the house, and she had to choose it to be sick on!
> Of course, I grabbed her before she could finish, and made her do the rest on bare tile floor.


I contracted Giardia once. I got infected poop in my mouth. We got in a new batch of dogs at the kennels and I was loading them up in the trailer to go train while they were cleaning the kennels and I must have gotten splashed.

It. Was. Horrible!

I had a 105 fever and had diarrhea so bad I couldn't even make it out of bed in time to get to the bathroom. 3 days in the hospital on antibiotics got rid of it but I was out of it for a week after trying to recover.

TL;DR... don't eat poop.


----------



## Sunsilver

:surprise::surprise::surprise:

O.M.G!!! I think I MAY have gotten giardia once from drinking unsafe water, but it was NOTHING like that!!

And yes, during the time I ran my own kennel, I often got poop or poop-contaminated water splashed on my face as I was cleaning the runs. The worst was during spring thaw, when the poop and pee contaminated ice which couldn't be cleaned off the runs during winter all thawed, and had to be broken up, loaded on a wheelbarrow, and dumped on the edge of the property (no, I am NOT paying dump fees to take frozen ice and snow containing poop to the dump!)

I do remember having the odd intestinal bug while working there, but nothing that didn't respond to a few days on antibiotics and metronidazole.


----------



## Jchrest

Maybe I’ve been misdiagnosed with Crohns, and really have Giardia, that’s how I feel on a daily basis. 

Joking about the giardia, I’ve had these issues as a small child.

But good lord, it sounds AWFUL to have it as a human, I wonder what our dogs are thinking when they have it. Poor things! And poor David!


----------



## CometDog

David Winners said:


> I contracted Giardia once. I got infected poop in my mouth. We got in a new batch of dogs at the kennels and I was loading them up in the trailer to go train while they were cleaning the kennels and I must have gotten splashed.
> 
> It. Was. Horrible!
> 
> I had a 105 fever and had diarrhea so bad I couldn't even make it out of bed in time to get to the bathroom. 3 days in the hospital on antibiotics got rid of it but I was out of it for a week after trying to recover.
> 
> TL;DR... don't eat poop.


Whoah! Ermagod that could not have been fun.


----------



## Jchrest

Unofficial 2lb additional gain! I say unofficial because it is. DH weighed himself, then picked up Seiran and weighed again. So I know it’s not accurate, but it seems like she is on the right track. I cannot see any differences in body conditions, so I just want to do this at home unofficially until her weigh in on Friday and make sure she doesn’t start backsliding again.


----------



## JonRob

Just one other thought here. I know you watch your dogs very carefully, but your DH does not. Any chance at all that Seiran sucked up something toxic? Specifically, did the weight loss start after a bunch of stuff got painted in and around your house? Could she have licked up some paint, paint thinner, or old paint flakes that poisoned her just enough to make her lose weight? And now her body has started to clear the toxins out of her system so she's gaining weight?


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## Jchrest

The only thing painted was the front door and what we call the “airlock” which is basically a very large wooden baby gate with a latch to prevent Crios from bolting out the door. It was regular chalk paint, and dries almost instantly. Our house was built in 2006, so no lead or asbestos problems. We don’t use chemicals in the yard, or house aside from the regular dishwasher and laundry soap, and disinfectant wipes for the counters. None are under the sink because our RO system is so big, nothing else fits down there, so the stuff that normally goes under the sink is in a high cabinet. 

The only chemicals she could have gotten into with DH are the pool chemicals. I did speak with the vet about that possibility, and she said it would be a lot worse than slow weight loss with chemical poisoning.


----------



## Jchrest

*Update*

Seiran started vomiting last night, and we called the emergency vet after hour number. The vet said to bring her in ASAP. I stayed in the waiting room a wreck waiting for news. They started her an IV drip, but did not want to stop the vomiting until they had a clear picture on why she was vomiting. I was a mess, just a mess. As the vet was calling in a team to do exploratory surgery, the vet tech noticed something odd in her vomit. He brought it out and asked if I knew what/where she has ingested this. It was a piece of a flower from one of my flowering bushes. I didn’t know what they were called, so I started googling the crap out of it. Mexican Red Bird of Paradise. I’ve been slowly allowing Seiran to poison herself without even knowing it. I feel like a POS right now. 

She has always enjoyed teething on the branches, which I didn’t think was a big deal as she was just kinda mouthing it. She would bite down the length of a branch. She wasn’t eating it, just mouthing it. So I thought no big deal, she’s not swallowing or splintering pieces off it, it’s a very wet wood. Well it’s come into bloom, and she starting eating the blooms. I honestly feel like the worse dog owner ever. We have two very large bushes in our backyard. She was ingesting just enough with biting on the branches that makes my vet positive this has been the problem all along. I’m sitting at home now in tears wondering how I could have missed something like this. They are giving her IV meds to counteract the more toxic levels of the blooms. They say she is coming around, but can’t say for sure what her recovery chances are. They are updating me hourly. I left around 4am when they figured out what the issue was, and said there was nothing more I could do. I’m just in a daze. How could I be so careless and stupid? None of the other dogs chew on this, just Seiran. That should have been something I recognized and reported to the vet when all this started. I just didn’t think. 

I’m hoping and praying she recovers from this, I’m just sick and ashamed of myself. Bushes are going to be ripped out today when DH gets off work. We have more things in our landscaping that can be poisonous to dogs. A whole lot of aloe, 6 mini palms, and 3 plants that look like palms but aren’t. None of which I even considered would harm my dogs. Seiran started losing weight when she was allowed to be in the backyard with the other dogs instead of being in the front constantly. I’ll be taking the other dogs out front for bathroom breaks as a precaution until DH can pull all these up. 

I’m just so disgusted with myself. Praying she makes a full recovery. My negligence may cost her her life. That’s all, just wanted to update anyone who was wondering, I’ll probably take a break from here for awhile. I’ll update if she makes it through this.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Don't beat yourself up. I have had my dogs eat plants that they should not have and they had no reaction. My dogs LOVE to eat greenery and I let them and have no problems. One dog is even addicted to eating poison ivy and will stand on his hind legs to reach up and get some growing in the hedges. I think most people that post here would have missed that.


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## David Winners

There is no chance I would have caught that before you did. Please don't beat yourself up. No one provides a perfect environment for the things they are responsible for. It's just not possible.

Fingers crossed, and keep us updated.

I'm about to identify and check all the plants around my house.


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## Shane'sDad

Seiran will get through this she's a young other wise healthy dog....I've gotta believe if the toxin was that potent something would have shown up in the blood work...further...no one here could have tried any harder to figure out her weight loss...you clearly went the extra mile trying to pin point the reason for her weight loss....your dogs are very lucky to have you....considering all the things you've had on your plate recently.. as the saying goes...."You Done Good !" and I second what the other members already said....quit beating yourself up


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## JonRob

Landscapers and interior decorators who plop plants everywhere are among the worst enemies of dogs. If a plant is pretty, they use it, and never mind whether it's poisonous or not. 

A long, long time ago, I shared an apartment with a guy who was a plant nut. I thought his plants were cool. When my little mutt started chewing on a dried up bit of plant (which I later found out was dumb cane), I thought nothing of it as I took the plant piece away from her. Fifteen minutes later, her whole face was insanely swollen up and the swelling was moving down into her neck. Didn't take a genius to figure out that her throat was going to swell shut and she was going to suffocate. As long as I live, I will never forget that frantic race to the vet. When I got close to the vet and hit stalled traffic, I jerked the car into a no parking zone, jumped out, and ran with my dog in my arms to the vet. They shot her up with steroids and Benadryl, which stopped the swelling and saved her life. As soon as I got home, I dumped every plant in the apartment in the dumpster and told my roommate that if he ever brought another eff-word plant into the place I would move out the same day. He started to get indignant but shut up when he saw I meant business. I have never had plants in my home since then, and I've routinely removed landscaped plants.

When in doubt, rip it out.

And as I've said a million times, just because something is natural doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you or your dogs.

Here's a couple of websites with lists of poisonous landscaping plants. The first one focuses on desert plants.

http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/pets/2014/05/15/ask-vet-pets-landscaping/9151481/

http://www.installitdirect.com/learn/plants-poisonous-dogs-cats/

Did the ER vets do bloodwork on Seiran? If they did, what were her sodium and potassium levels? This is important since she was never tested for Addison's disease. I have no doubt that she was poisoned by the plant, but unfortunately a dog can simultaneously have more than one medical problem that sends her to the ER.

Hope she makes a full recovery! Please keep us updated.


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## dogma13

My father worked for the Dept. of Agriculture for many years and after retirement he worked at a plant nursery/landscaping business.They absolutely do know what plants are toxic to various animals and people.It's actually pretty complicated as to which plant is poisonous to which animal.A dog can chew something that has no effect on them but would kill a horse if it ingested it.Your county extension service or state agricultural dept. will identify plants for you if you send a pic.Keep anything delivered from a florist away from pets too,unless you do a little research on what's included in the bouquet
I'm glad your girl is doing better Jchrest!


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## JonRob

dogma13 said:


> I'm glad your girl is doing better Jchrest!


Huh? JChrest's dog went from bouncing around with her canine buddies to currently lying in the ER on a IV, seriously poisoned by a toxic plant, and the ER vets can’t say for sure what her recovery chances are, and are updating JChrest hourly. This is "doing better"?


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## dogma13

My mistake.Skipped around on the thread and totally missed the post about the ER.Sorry Jchrest!
Dogs are always licking up odds and ends and chewing on who knows what.If course it's not your fault.Sending kind and healing thoughts your way.


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## xthine

Sorry Jchrest and Seiran! 



This type of thing can happen to anyone. When we brought Josie home after a few days she and Haylie started vomiting for a few hours and in their vomit I saw some weird rhizome (?) looking plant which they dug from the backyard. Since then I have tried to identify and google the plants that we have in the backyard (we had just moved into our new house when it happened). We have since removed boxwoods and oleanders in the back yard and are more conscious of the plants we have (and plan to plant). 



The silver lining (if you could call it that) is that the vet seems to know what could be causing Seiran's symptoms and they should be able to treat accordingly.


Positive thoughts to you both!


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## Thecowboysgirl

My dog had to spend the night in an emergency clinic after she uprooted an oleander bush and brought it to me to play tug with

And I knew they were toxic and planted them outside our fence to be safe, because they were pretty and we were trying to sell he house. 

She went outside the fence with me for something and while my back was turned ripped up one of the smaller ones and brought it to me. 

Sometimes no matter what you do you know what happens.

When we moved to the farm there was a huge Oleander in the front yard. First thing we did was rip it out with the tractor.

I don't know what half the flowers are in the garden of my current house, the previous owners planted them. And I have taken plenty of twigs out of my puppy's mouth. It could have just as easily been us in this situation and I think I am a pretty responsible dog person


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## Buckelke

No no no. EVERYONE of us has made a dumb mistake. NO one expects you to know every plant you come across. Few weeks ago DH has rounding up the trash. Then he announced Buck was eating something off the floor. A few hours later he threw up chicken bones. He's fine. Actually they are both fine. Now. 



Try your county for a list of "Noxious weeds" in your area. They are usually on the Internet, along with pictures and how to get rid of them. Many common ones are poisonous to livestock (Tansy, for example). 

Here is a list of over 1000 (you know them all, right?)
plus a phone number for poison control for dogs: 



https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants














Jchrest said:


> Seiran started vomiting last night, and we called the emergency vet after hour number. The vet said to bring her in ASAP. I stayed in the waiting room a wreck waiting for news. They started her an IV drip, but did not want to stop the vomiting until they had a clear picture on why she was vomiting. I was a mess, just a mess. As the vet was calling in a team to do exploratory surgery, the vet tech noticed something odd in her vomit. He brought it out and asked if I knew what/where she has ingested this. It was a piece of a flower from one of my flowering bushes. I didn’t know what they were called, so I started googling the crap out of it. Mexican Red Bird of Paradise. I’ve been slowly allowing Seiran to poison herself without even knowing it. I feel like a POS right now. \\


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## Dunkirk

You weren't being negligent, and you've had a very hard, tough, row to hoe with everything you've been going through in recent times. We do care, please keep us up to date.


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## GSDchoice

Please don't beat yourself up, very few people would know these kind of things! 
I certainly would not!

A small silver lining...now you know what was behind that troubling weight loss...
I hope Seiran will pull through this and begin to bloom (no horrible pun intended) and grow to her normal size as a healthy young gsd!


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## Jchrest

Nothing new to report. She is still holding on at the vets. They said she is resting comfortably, having a little issue breathing, and they are keeping her until she is 100% stable, but they can’t give me a timeline for that. Vet said she has a better chance than when I first brought her in, but another 24hrs under medical supervision should tell. 

Jonrob, I have no idea what her levels are, and I’d assume they would be all out of wack with toxicity levels being so high from the blooms. 

I looked up every plant in our backyard. All are poisonous in one form or another. Citrus trees, pomegranate trees, creeping vines, literally have not found one that isn’t.


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## Springbrz

Praying for Serian and you. Please don't be so hard on yourself. You don't have a botany degree. None of your other dogs ever had an issue with the plants. You had no reason to suspect them to be the cause. You are not a bad dog owner or a bad person.


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## JonRob

Thanks for the update.

Yes, the sodium and potassium values may be out of whack because of the toxicity, but a certain ratio does strongly indicate Addison's disease. I just hope the vets don't assume that the plant poisoning is the only thing going on without considering this possibility. If she has Addison's disease, eating the plant could have thrown her into an Addisonian crisis as well as causing toxicity. And an Addisonian crisis is generally fatal if not properly treated.


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## Jchrest

JonRob said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> Yes, the sodium and potassium values may be out of whack because of the toxicity, but a certain ratio does strongly indicate Addison's disease. I just hope the vets don't assume that the plant poisoning is the only thing going on without considering this possibility. If she has Addison's disease, eating the plant could have thrown her into an Addisonian crisis as well as causing toxicity. And an Addisonian crisis is generally fatal if not properly treated.


We aren’t worried about Addison's disease at this point. We are focusing on getting her through the current crisis, which has been confirmed to be toxicity. This doesn’t mean I’ll cancel my appt with the GI Specialist, we still plan on taking her if she recovers from this, but for now, based on her previous levels and one blood panel and one blood serum panel, nothing was ever discovered that would point to Addison’s disease. Her pancreas was functioning normally, as were her kidneys and liver. My regular vet, her colleague, and the GI guy all agreed that signs would have shown on the numerous panels that were run if Addison’s was a concern. Had I been able to pin point the landscaping poisons from the beginning, she wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with. 

Really, at this point, my main focus is praying that she will make it through the night. I can’t sleep, I just can’t stop worrying. The office is great, sent me any updates or changes via text (but my request, I do not enjoy speaking over the phone). A new tech will be coming in in an hour to relieve the last one, and I’m waiting for an update when she checks all vitals before I can even think of sleeping. 

Sorry, frayed nerves and emotional drainage.


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## Shane'sDad

She's right where she needs to be for now....Seiran's going to OK.....


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## Jchrest

She made it through the night, which I am so very thankful for. Her vitals remain erratic at times, so she will not be released today. The vet recommended that I start looking for a cardiologist that we can follow up with, if she recovers enough to come home. They are worried there may be some heart damage long term. They are keeping her on a mild sedative as she gets too amped up and they are afraid she’ll do damage to herself wanting out of the kennel. Same thing happened last time as well. She knows the difference between being crated at home, and being kenneled at the vets. I’ll be honest, I’m glad she is in their care. I wouldn’t be able to handle it if she went into cardiac arrest in my home, or passed at my home. They said I could come by today and visit her, but I’m not sure that would do either of us any good. She’d probably get overly excited, and I’d be overly emotional. What do you guys think? Good idea to visit, bad idea?


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## dogma13

If she's fairly calm because of the sedative if you could just sit with her for a while it might be soothing for you both.


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## Chuck94!

dogma13 said:


> If she's fairly calm because of the sedative if you could just sit with her for a while it might be soothing for you both.


Definitely agree with this!


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## Magwart

I think if they offered, and she's on a sedative, I would go, if I were in your shoes. 

One of the most important things with dogs in critical care is making sure they don't give up the fight -- my favorite vet says that if she can keep them fighting to live, she can use everything available to her to pull them through, but when they give up, nothing available in veterinary medicine will be good enough. Feeling loved is sometimes why they keep fighting to stay alive when they're close to crossing over.

I think Seiran may need you to just give ask her to keep fighting to hold onto life.


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## Springbrz

If it were me I would go and see her. Sit with her, calm her and love her. As hard as it may be for you I feel it's what you both need... to be together. I'm hoping with all hope that she will pull through. But if the worst should happen I think you would regret not being there with her as much as you can be. My heart tells me it would be cathartic for you to tell her how sorry you are for what has happened and how much you love her and are there for her. In turn I think it will help her to feel your love.


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## Mikek3111

Go sit with her for a while. If only to let her know that your still there and to help ease your own emotions. Just getting the last image of her out of your mind and seeing an improvement in her current condition however small that may be will help you emotionally.

Also, as someone who has been around sick animals you’ll be more distressed that hopefully it doesn’t happen but should she get worse you’ll regret that you didn’t go.


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## Jchrest

I scheduled a visit with the vet to make sure Seiran is completely settled and sedated enough to not do damage, but alert enough to know I’m there. The vet agrees with ya’ll, she thinks it will be beneficial to see me. I’ll take a small dose of my anxiety meds before going so I don’t destress her with my emotions. The girls want to go see her as well, but I’m not sure. In a way, I want to shield them from becoming emotional over the visit, and at the same time I’m telling myself I can’t shield them from everything, and they need to know bad things happen, whether we are responsible or not, and the best we can do in these situations is to offer what support we can. I just don’t know.


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## JonRob

Jchrest said:


> She made it through the night, which I am so very thankful for.


Very, very happy to hear this.



Jchrest said:


> The vet recommended that I start looking for a cardiologist that we can follow up with, if she recovers enough to come home. They are worried there may be some heart damage long term.


Excellent recommendation.



Jchrest said:


> They said I could come by today and visit her, but I’m not sure that would do either of us any good. She’d probably get overly excited, and I’d be overly emotional. What do you guys think? Good idea to visit, bad idea?


If you stay cheerful during the visit, it would probably help her a lot.

This whole thing brings back something that has amazed me ever since I almost killed my beloved little mutt many years ago by tolerating my then roommate's house plants, including his eff-word dumb cane. At the time, I just assumed that houseplants couldn't possibly be poisonous because look at the danger they would be to pets and kids if they were. I still cannot believe that deadly poisonous plants are routinely sold to be used in the house and landscaping with absolutely no warning about their toxicity. I cannot think of any other product for which this would be allowed.


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## Chuck94!

Just do whatever you feel is best. I'm sure a visit would lift both of your spirit's!


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## readaboutdogs

Wow, sorry you're going thru all this. I had bought a angel trumpet plant (think that's what it was called)once at a garden nursery and had asked if it was poisoniness and the worker said no, I went ahead and bought it , brought it home and looked it up and i think it said all parts are! Got rid of that! I was surprised really how many are listed under sites that list poisoniness plants for pets. And like you said, your other dogs never messed with the plants. I'm not much of a gardener anyway so less is best. I too would go visit, maybe see how that visit goes before bringing your girls? Possibly they could go but wait and see what you thought after you sat with her?


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## Saco

So sorry- I had a feeling it was something toxic and I should have posted it. There are some alkaloids that mean the body cant' absorb nutrients and you (or cattle, dog, etc.) starve to death while eating. 

I hope Sieran pulls through. I think she will.


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## Dunkirk

Take a Dr Seuss book or something similar you can read aloud to her, it could keep you from emotionally 'melting', while she gets to see you and hear your voice.


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## Jchrest

I went in and sat with her for an hour before the kids got home from school. It’s hard seeing her this way. She gave me lots of licks through the kennel, tail thumbing, so I know she was happy to see me. I just talked to her, kept my voice calm and my eyes clear until I got to the car and lost it there. 

She’s still having erratic vitals, her oxygen saturation levels plunge, her heart beats too fast or too slow, but the vet said she hasn’t had a seizure, so it doesn’t look like it worked it’s way to her brain. She hasn’t had a “crash” since she ingested the blooms, which works in her favor too. They are going to keep her over the weekend, and reassess on Monday morning. She has a feeding tube again, that was the hardest to see. 6 months old and on a feeding tube twice in her life already. But she is where she needs to be. 


I’ll be taking the girls to see her tomorrow. Hopefully she’ll have made some progress by then, and look a little less ill for their sakes.


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## Springbrz

She's hanging in and that is a good sign. I'm glad you went to see her. I'm sure it did her a world of good to have you close even for a short while. Prayers still for Serian, you and your family.


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## JonRob

I'm so glad the visit went well. She obviously appreciated it a lot, and you obviously made the right decision.

Ran across an article about a man and his daughter who were poisoned by the same type of plant that Seiran ate. They ate the sweet seed pods thinking it was a nonpoisonous plant. Both of them landed in the hospital and both recovered fully. The plant is widespread (this happened in Iran), and this is what the article has to say about this evil plant:

"C gilliessii [bird of paradise shrub] is native to dry and desert regions of Argentina and Uruguay but is now widely found in other tropical and arid regions around the world, including the southwestern United States from California and Nevada to Oklahoma and Texas plus Georgia. As a consequence of global warming and climate change, its distribution is increasing in Iran, including Qazvin province, where there is popular belief in the medicinal properties of wild plants. The pleasant taste and similarity of the seed to edible beans makes C gilliessii a high risk for poisoning from ingestion, which calls for raising public awareness. *In addition, this risk creates an obligation to prohibit its cultivation in public and populous areas such as parks and schools.*"

From: Poisoning with Tasty and Sweet Seed Pods of Bird of Paradise Plant Caesalpinia gilliessii, in Wilderness & Environmental Medicine 2019; 30(1), page 99.

It's just nuts that poisonous plants are sold without any warnings about their toxicity.


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## Jchrest

Pretty much everything we have in our backyard is poisonous to dogs in one form or another. Desert landscaping is apparently the worst thing to have with dogs. Lucky for us, the grass isn’t poisonous too!


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## JonRob

Jchrest said:


> Pretty much everything we have in our backyard is poisonous to dogs in one form or another. Desert landscaping is apparently the worst thing to have with dogs. Lucky for us, the grass isn’t poisonous too!


And dang, even some ornamental grasses are poisonous:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/poisonous-ornamental-grasses-22480.html

The really evil thing about the bird of paradise plant is that it apparently tastes great. At least some poisonous plants have the decency to taste bad.


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## Jchrest

Thank god we have Bermuda grass, which is nontoxic to dogs. I’m slightly tempted to see what the flowers taste like now, but also know how incredibly stupid it would be. We haven’t let the other dogs out back since we took Seiran in. DH has removed some of the bushes and plants, but still has a few more to work on, and then we need to do a full sweep on the yard to make sure there are no more blossoms or twigs or branches laying around. I’d like to be able to get them safely back into the backyard, they can’t run freely in the front yard. Every section in our backyard has some danger. 

We are researching what we can safely replace them with. The hedges/bushes give us privacy from the neighbors on the other side of the wall. It’s uncomfortable having the backyard so exposed now.


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## dogma13

The earth is brimming with plants and trees that are dangerous for animals and humans.Quite a few are garden standards up north here,quite a few grow wild around here.Nightshade,virginia creeper,daylilies,daisys,mums, mushrooms,are all growing on our property.Some insects and other little critters are toxic too.It's not possible to avoid contact.

https://m.petmd.com/dog/emergency/poisoning-toxicity/e_dg_poisonous_plants

What happened with Serian wasn't your fault at all,it was just one of those rare freaky situations that our dogs manage to get into,like her tooth getting caught on the doggy door.


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## Jchrest

Holy lord, if we don’t have it here, we have it in California. All the fruit trees in CA are toxic to dogs, and we have two very large black walnut trees as well. Here in AZ, we also have the Sago Palms, grapefruit, lemon, lime, orange, and pomegranate trees. Plus the mini palms, I saw them on the link you provided to the aspca site, but can’t remember their names. Seiran has only shown interest in the bird of paradise, but I’m sure once those are removed, she’ll look for something else to chew on. We have two trees I’ve yet to identify, they smell amazing, but it’s not a smell I’ve experienced before. I need to figure out how to take a picture of them and find a site I can upload to to tell me what they are. I know it’s probably overkill to remove every danger, but I also don’t want another experience like this. It’s broken something in me, and I don’t want to ever put any of my dogs in danger again.


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## Springbrz

I know it's been an awful experience and you never want it to happen again. But if you look closely at that huge list of plants toxic to dogs must of them usually only cause mild GI upset except in rare cases unless large quantities are ingested.
Think about places you've lived, pictures you've seen of yards and landscape. Boxwood it on the list and I would guess 70% of homes, businesses and groomed green spaces have boxwood planted on them. I have never heard of a dog getting sick from boxwood but if they are on the list I'm sure it's happened. We've had them in the yard of everyplace I've lived since I was a kid. Never had an issue and we've always had dogs. 
Up until 2 years ago I had boxwood hedges for almost 30 years and 5 dogs. Ziva is the only dog that has ever taken a liking to chew on them and we always stopped her (never unattended in the front yard). When we took them out we replaced them with Nandina (also on the list). I was sure not to buy a variety that has berries as I believe it is the berries that are toxic and I think I read the berries kill birds, too. I also have an old mature Azalea (also in the front yard and on the list as well). Now Ziva does try to chew on it and I always correct her for it immediately and she stops. She has never gotten sick thank goodness.
Over the years my neighbors have had fruit trees. Their plum tree in particular dropped fruit on my patio. Dogs never bothered with them which was a good thing as plums are toxic. They made a mess of my patio though. One day my neighbor happened to notice all the plums on my patio and apologized. I told him it was a fruit tree and i wasn't bothered by it that much. 2 days later the tree was gone. He was a good neighbor. 
For years one neighbor who we shared a fence with had Wisteria growing on the fence and over to our side. Again toxic. I was allergic to its sap as well. I couldn't make them remove it so I had to keep it trimmed away from me and the dogs. I currently battle with invasive english ivy (on the list) that someone planted years ago that has taken over fence lines. A couple years ago we had to replace a large section of fence because of it. We ripped it all out on both sides as my neighbor didn't care. He doesn't keep after it so it's growing back. Ugh..
My point is that I understand you want to make your yard as safe as possible with non toxic plants the reality is toxic plants are everywhere because...well that list is huge. If anything a neighbor has grows through or over a fence there won't be much you can do but keep it trimmed out of your yard and hope for the best. It's unfortunate that one of the more toxic plants was already in your yard and you've remedied that. It really was just a freak thing. 
As for your fruit trees I would look up just exactly what makes them toxic and how toxic are they. Most likely with the citrus trees it's the skin of the fruit that is hard to digest and can cause mild stomach upset. If the dogs don't have access to the fruit you might be able to keep them. The black walnut it is the nuts that are toxic and nuts drop everywhere so those may have to go. 
I continue to pray for Serians recovery.


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## Shane'sDad

Springbrz said:


> I know it's been an awful experience and you never want it to happen again. But if you look closely at that huge list of plants toxic to dogs must of them usually only cause mild GI upset except in rare cases unless large quantities are ingested.
> Think about places you've lived, pictures you've seen of yards and landscape. Boxwood it on the list and I would guess 70% of homes, businesses and groomed green spaces have boxwood planted on them. I have never heard of a dog getting sick from boxwood but if they are on the list I'm sure it's happened. We've had them in the yard of everyplace I've lived since I was a kid. Never had an issue and we've always had dogs.
> Up until 2 years ago I had boxwood hedges for almost 30 years and 5 dogs. Ziva is the only dog that has ever taken a liking to chew on them and we always stopped her (never unattended in the front yard). When we took them out we replaced them with Nandina (also on the list). I was sure not to buy a variety that has berries as I believe it is the berries that are toxic and I think I read the berries kill birds, too. I also have an old mature Azalea (also in the front yard and on the list as well). Now Ziva does try to chew on it and I always correct her for it immediately and she stops. She has never gotten sick thank goodness.
> Over the years my neighbors have had fruit trees. Their plum tree in particular dropped fruit on my patio. Dogs never bothered with them which was a good thing as plums are toxic. They made a mess of my patio though. One day my neighbor happened to notice all the plums on my patio and apologized. I told him it was a fruit tree and i wasn't bothered by it that much. 2 days later the tree was gone. He was a good neighbor.
> For years one neighbor who we shared a fence with had Wisteria growing on the fence and over to our side. Again toxic. I was allergic to its sap as well. I couldn't make them remove it so I had to keep it trimmed away from me and the dogs. I currently battle with invasive english ivy (on the list) that someone planted years ago that has taken over fence lines. A couple years ago we had to replace a large section of fence because of it. We ripped it all out on both sides as my neighbor didn't care. He doesn't keep after it so it's growing back. Ugh..
> My point is that I understand you want to make your yard as safe as possible with non toxic plants the reality is toxic plants are everywhere because...well that list is huge. If anything a neighbor has grows through or over a fence there won't be much you can do but keep it trimmed out of your yard and hope for the best. It's unfortunate that one of the more toxic plants was already in your yard and you've remedied that. It really was just a freak thing.
> As for your fruit trees I would look up just exactly what makes them toxic and how toxic are they. Most likely with the citrus trees it's the skin of the fruit that is hard to digest and can cause mild stomach upset. If the dogs don't have access to the fruit you might be able to keep them. The black walnut it is the nuts that are toxic and nuts drop everywhere so those may have to go.
> I continue to pray for Serians recovery.


 Exactly ^^^^..I think that it's the amount that many dogs will consume at one sitting and the amount of days--weeks etc that they continue to eat the plant.... many are not 100% lethal....I read a bit about the Mexican Bird of Paradise plant...again I'll say I think Seiran will get through this...and she'll do much better once she's back home...even with ER help fluids etc. it'll take a while to get all the remaining toxins completely out of her system


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## Magwart

Sago palms need to go for sure. That's a plant that we often have to point out on rescue home checks and suggest that it be removed -- they're very popular in landscaping, and I've had several acquaintences lose dogs to those things. It seems like no one around here has any idea how lethal it is until its too late. Birds sometimes pick up the poisonous seeds and then drop them in another yard, so even a neighboring Sago can kill a dog. It's worth asking neighbors to remove the seeds and put them in the trash, as it's the most toxic part of the plant.


FWIW, I didn't know about Birds of Paradise until this thread. I've had lots of fruit trees without dogs getting sick though -- eating figs gave the dogs the runs because they're a mild, natural laxative, but we could prune the branches so dogs couldn't reach the fruit. None of my dogs has ever shown interest in my citrus trees.



Maybe start a thread on Dog-Safe Gardens? Hopefully @*WIBackpacker* will chime in with some pro expertise.


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## Jchrest

So far so good, she is more pepped up with more energy than yesterday. Still one day at a time. They are confident she will pull through, her vitals have been steady for the past 12hrs, but we still don’t know if any long term damage has been done. I’m keeping her appt with the GI Specialist, and she will be seen by a cardiologist before release, and if anything abnormal is found, we will take her to a cardiologist out of town as well.

On the AZ house, all the citrus, vines, and mini palms are on the pool side of the fence, so we aren’t going to pull those. We’ve already decided on a quick growing, nontoxic shrub to replace the bird of paradise. And I will be on her like a fly on stink so we can break her limb chewing habit now that I know how dangerous it can be. 

CA house has every imaginable type of fruit tree, just no citrus. And the two large black walnut trees. The walnut will have to go for sure, but the fruit trees are in an area the animals don’t have access to, so those should be fine. 

I’m looking into, but have yet to find, anything regarding the burning of fruit limbs. That is what we use in our fireplace and outdoor fire pit. I’ll probably remove the plum, it’s bordering the fence line, and none of us actually like plums anyway, so it makes sense to remove it.


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## WIBackpacker

Magwart said:


> *Maybe start a thread on Dog-Safe Gardens?* Hopefully @*WIBackpacker* will chime in with some pro expertise.


This is a great idea, we should have one.

This is the list that I use to train new landscape architects and to help guide clients who are DIY'ers: 

https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/poisonous-plants-to-pets.pdf

It is not all-inclusive, but it is a very good starting point. It is also invaluable to know where to go for *correct* local botanical plant ID, as plants have an unfortunate habit of going by many different common names, depending on where you live. If the person you are asking doesn't know the Latin name for the plant, keep looking - you want someone who understands taxonomy.

ETA: It does not replace professional plant ID, but PlantSnap (free) is an app I recommend to people who are just starting to learn and/or constantly coming into contact with plants they don't recognize. Obvious disclaimer, it is NOT perfect and I wouldn't gamble a dog's life on *any *app. But it's good for basics.


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## JonRob

Jchrest said:


> On the AZ house, all the citrus, vines, and mini palms are on the pool side of the fence, so we aren’t going to pull those.


Beware of plant parts blowing into an area where the dogs can get them.


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## SuperG

JonRob said:


> I still cannot believe that deadly poisonous plants are routinely sold to be used in the house and landscaping with absolutely no warning about their toxicity.* I cannot think of any other product for which this would be allowed.*



I can think of numerous "product"s which are toxic to dogs and do not come with warnings......... it is incumbent upon me to investigate all items which my dog could ingest and plan accordingly.




SuperG


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## Jchrest

SuperG said:


> JonRob said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still cannot believe that deadly poisonous plants are routinely sold to be used in the house and landscaping with absolutely no warning about their toxicity.* I cannot think of any other product for which this would be allowed.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can think of numerous "product"s which are toxic to dogs and do not come with warnings......... it is incumbent upon me to investigate all items which my dog could ingest and plan accordingly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SuperG
Click to expand...

I agree. Raisins are toxic to animals, but they have no warning label on them. I’ve done all the research on inside dangers years ago, but have never had a dog that even looked at landscaping, let alone eat it, aside from some grass grazing. I should have been more aware of what was in her surroundings outside.


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## Jchrest

WIBackpacker said:


> Magwart said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Maybe start a thread on Dog-Safe Gardens?* Hopefully @*WIBackpacker* will chime in with some pro expertise.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great idea, we should have one.
> 
> This is the list that I use to train new landscape architects and to help guide clients who are DIY'ers:
> 
> https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/poisonous-plants-to-pets.pdf
> 
> It is not all-inclusive, but it is a very good starting point. It is also invaluable to know where to go for *correct* local botanical plant ID, as plants have an unfortunate habit of going by many different common names, depending on where you live. If the person you are asking doesn't know the Latin name for the plant, keep looking - you want someone who understands taxonomy.
> 
> ETA: It does not replace professional plant ID, but PlantSnap (free) is an app I recommend to people who are just starting to learn and/or constantly coming into contact with plants they don't recognize. Obvious disclaimer, it is NOT perfect and I wouldn't gamble a dog's life on *any *app. But it's good for basics.
Click to expand...

This is amazing, thank you! Maybe the app will help me identify the two trees I can’t find anywhere, or at least give me a starting point for research.


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## WIBackpacker

While we're on the topic, one of the most dangerous garden products on the market is cocoa bean mulch. It's wildly popular because it smells nice, is lightweight to sling around, and looks good in planters and on the ground. 

We made the decision years ago to stop selling it because it *really is* dangerous. 

I'd rather disappoint folks who come in and inquire about buying it (even though I know they'll probably go down the road to the Big Box) than have any client of mine kill their dog.

Half the time when I'm explaining toxicity, people's eyes glaze over. Oddly, the only thing that has happened in recent years to bring real attention to plant toxicity was Breaking Bad. When that went mainstream (Walt, Jesse and the ricin cigarette) I finally, finally, FINALLY had people come in and start asking real questions about how dangerous plants are.


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## WIBackpacker

And, on a positive note (to balance out the gloom, because plants are in fact awesome)....

There are lots of other plants in the landscape that are harmless or beneficial. The most frequent panic-y inquiry this time of year is about dogs chowing down on "yellow weeds". Native goldenrod has a pile of positive digestive benefits, and unless the dog is consuming an unreasonable volume, there's nothing to fear. Lots of dogs will actively seek it out in a field of mixed wildflowers, honing in on it and devouring it. 

Goldenrod also gets blamed for sending people into an allergy crisis, but the actual enemy is ragweed. G is for Good, Goldenrod. R is for Rip it Out, Ragweed.


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## JonRob

SuperG said:


> I can think of numerous "product"s which are toxic to dogs and do not come with warnings......... it is incumbent upon me to investigate all items which my dog could ingest and plan accordingly.


Yes, it is incumbent on you, but most of these poisonous plants are deadly to children as well. And very attractive to kids as edibles. Just one castor oil plant seed can kill a child. Which is why I don't understand the absence of warning labels on these things. Look at all the trouble folks go to with child-resistant caps on medicine bottles, warnings about small parts being choking hazards, etc. But poisonous plants? Hey, don't worry, be happy.

So I remain a huge fan of reverse landscaping: When in doubt, rip it out.

Here's a fun book on toxic plants: Wicked Plants.

http://www.amazon.com/Wicked-Plants...1569604944&sprefix=wicked+plan,aps,478&sr=8-1


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## SuperG

WIBackpacker said:


> While we're on the topic, one of the most dangerous garden products on the market is cocoa bean mulch. It's wildly popular because it smells nice, is lightweight to sling around, and looks good in planters and on the ground.
> 
> .



Interesting that you mentioned cocoa bean mulch.....years ago I bought some bags of cocoa bean mulch....started laying it down and then the light bulb went on in my head.....hmmmmm...cocoa bean shells...chocolate...caffeine. Did a tiny bit of research and found it's not good for dogs even though they would have to consume a hefty amount .....Brought the dog out and she went right to it and ate a small bit.......scooped up the little bit I had lain out and used it in an area she could not access.


No "warnings" on the bags....but then again....I don't expect "warnings" to be on everything.


Because of the "bean".....I check everything out which my dog might ingest.....warning labels or not.


I laughed at myself regarding the cocoa bean mulch episode because I remembered thinking it was intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that the stuff can mess your dog up....in quantity....and yet there I was starting to use the mulch where the dog could have gotten into it.


Plus....cocoa bean mulch sucks because it grows moldy when moist for too long. All IMHO.




SuperG


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## WIBackpacker

SuperG said:


> Interesting that you mentioned cocoa bean mulch.....years ago I bought some bags of cocoa bean mulch....started laying it down and then the light bulb went on in my head.....hmmmmm...cocoa bean shells...chocolate...caffeine. Did a tiny bit of research and found it's not good for dogs even though they would have to consume a hefty amount .....Brought the dog out and she went right to it and ate a small bit.......scooped up the little bit I had lain out and used it in an area she could not access.
> 
> 
> No "warnings" on the bags....but then again....I don't expect "warnings" to be on everything.
> 
> 
> Because of the "bean".....I check everything out which my dog might ingest.....warning labels or not.
> 
> 
> I laughed at myself regarding the cocoa bean mulch episode because I remembered thinking it was intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that the stuff can mess your dog up....in quantity....and yet there I was starting to use the mulch where the dog could have gotten into it.
> 
> 
> Plus....cocoa bean mulch sucks because it grows moldy when moist for too long. All IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SuperG


Yep. All of the above.


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## WIBackpacker

JonRob said:


> Yes, it is incumbent on you, but most of these poisonous plants are deadly to children as well. And very attractive to kids as edibles. Just one castor oil plant seed can kill a child. Which is why I don't understand the absence of warning labels on these things.


Selling Castor Bean plants without a warning is irresponsible. We put warning signs on the plants, and the seed packets come with warnings directly from the seed packing co. 

Castor Bean, of course, is where now-infamous ricin (a la Breaking Bad) is derived from. 

Most of the worst culprits are box stores. Cashiers in large box stores generally have no idea what any of the plants are, so there is zero opportunity for the purchaser to be given information about the living thing in their cart. 

I literally overhead someone ask a Depot cashier "Can I eat this?" and their response "Well, probably, as long as you cook it, like pumpkins and stuff." :surprise:

Plant people, otoh, are going to talk your ear off to make sure you understand how to grow something and what to do/not to do with it.


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## LuvShepherds

Thank you so much! I was offline for several days. We lost an extended family member earlier this week, but I can only stay way so long. We have some huge Bird of Paradise plants that were here when we moved in. They are taller than I am. I’ve had 6 different dogs living here since then at different times plus a lot of visitor dogs and never had a single problem with it. But my 4 year old dog likes to grab at the flowers. I always say Leave it and he does. I knew they weren’t good for dogs but had no idea they were poisonous. I usually just clip the flowers off. We talked and we are going to pull them all out in the next few weeks. If you do it yourself, they have a huge root ball. If you don’t get it all out, they will grow back even if there is just a tiny piece left on the soil. I took one out a few years ago to open some space and it took six months to get rid of it. They provide a lot of shade for my dogs, but I’d rather put up an awning or something than risk it.


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## JonRob

LuvShepherds said:


> We have some huge Bird of Paradise plants that were here when we moved in. They are taller than I am. I’ve had 6 different dogs living here since then at different times plus a lot of visitor dogs and never had a single problem with it. But my 4 year old dog likes to grab at the flowers. I always say Leave it and he does. I knew they weren’t good for dogs but had no idea they were poisonous. I usually just clip the flowers off. We talked and we are going to pull them all out in the next few weeks.


Good idea. The entire plant is really poisonous, not just the flowers.


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## LuvShepherds

The leaves too? I thought just the flowers and stems. Fortunately my dogs no longer try to eat anything in the yard except grass for some reason. It’s perfect because we are redoing the yard in a few weeks, so I’m going to have them pulled out for me when they demo the rest. I have always hated them because they are huge and messy but after the trouble it took to remove the smaller one that was blocking a window, I gave up. One is 7’ wide.


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## Jchrest

LuvShepherds said:


> The leaves too? I thought just the flowers and stems. Fortunately my dogs no longer try to eat anything in the yard except grass for some reason. It’s perfect because we are redoing the yard in a few weeks, so I’m going to have them pulled out for me when they demo the rest. I have always hated them because they are huge and messy but after the trouble it took to remove the smaller one that was blocking a window, I gave up. One is 7’ wide.


We may be talking about 2 different varieties here. The Mexican Red Bird of Paradise is different than just the regular Bird of Paradise. I included a pic of what we have. The leaves aren’t so much what I would regular leaves look like.


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## LuvShepherds

Ohh. Mine are this type 

https://www.bhg.com/gardening/plant-dictionary/perennial/bird-of-paradise/


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## Jchrest

Yeah, we are definitely not in a tropical climate! The AZ heat would those quickly! Glad you don’t have the same type!


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## LuvShepherds

They are all dangerous to dogs.


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## Jchrest

*Awesome update!*

Seiran will be coming home tomorrow, as long as she passes stable vitals until then. She has had stable vitals since Friday, and had a cardiologist look at her yesterday. He didn’t pick anything up that was a warning sign for him, but I’ll still follow up with another. Hoping to get in to see the one in New Mexico for GI. She will still be medicated, and I’ll get a list of what and how often to dose, but the vet said she seems stable and full of energy. They want to keep the feeding tube in for another week as a precaution. If she crashes, it’s one less thing to worry about. She is drinking on her own, going to the bathroom on her own, and her energy is back to bounding out of her kennel. I’m excited to have her home, and a little scared too. We are still taking all dogs out front, and I’ll continue that until I know no trace of that stupid bush remains. Since she still has traces of toxins in her blood samples, I’m afraid even a lick could ruin any progress. But mostly, I’m soooooo excited to get my girl back!


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## huntergreen

Jchrest said:


> Seiran will be coming home tomorrow, as long as she passes stable vitals until then. She has had stable vitals since Friday, and had a cardiologist look at her yesterday. He didn’t pick anything up that was a warning sign for him, but I’ll still follow up with another. Hoping to get in to see the one in New Mexico for GI. She will still be medicated, and I’ll get a list of what and how often to dose, but the vet said she seems stable and full of energy. They want to keep the feeding tube in for another week as a precaution. If she crashes, it’s one less thing to worry about. She is drinking on her own, going to the bathroom on her own, and her energy is back to bounding out of her kennel. I’m excited to have her home, and a little scared too. We are still taking all dogs out front, and I’ll continue that until I know no trace of that stupid bush remains. Since she still has traces of toxins in her blood samples, I’m afraid even a lick could ruin any progress. But mostly, I’m soooooo excited to get my girl back!


Great news!


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## Springbrz

So happy to hear Serian has pulled through and will be home soon. I'm sure her pack will be happy to have her back as well.


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## Jchrest

Springbrz said:


> So happy to hear Serian has pulled through and will be home soon. I'm sure her pack will be happy to have her back as well.


She’ll have to be separated from them again. Sigh. But she’s alive, and once healed as much as she possibly can, we can let her back with her pack. I’m sure she will be thrilled, she never been a singleton!


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## GSDchoice

Hopefully she will be gaining weight quickly and growing fast! Great that she pulled through and you figured out the cause!


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## Jchrest

It’s been a long long day. I’ve been sitting with Seiran, who did come home this morning. She’s better than she was when I dropped her off, but she’s still obviously not well either. She doesn’t even care about her pack. It’s been hard seeing that, but I get that she’s just not well. I don’t like people hovering over me when I’m sick either. Her meds are easy right now as they are just added to her tube feeding, but I couldn’t get her to lap any slurry up, so she’s back to tube feeding for the day, every two hours. She has to be carried out to do her business as she gets exhausted just trying to walk out into the front yard, which is hard as I cannot lift her without pain. DH is going to take tomorrow off, hopefully she will get some energy and muscle control back so she can make it to the front yard, or at least into my lap on her own so I can wheel her out. I’ve been using the chair a lot more today than I’ve needed to in awhile. We are both a hot mess today. Lol. Hoping tomorrow sees some of her old spark coming back into her eyes.


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## dogma13

Hope tomorrow is easier for you all.I'm glad Serian is home again.


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## Jchrest

I’m one exhausted human today. 2 hour feedings around the clock. I’d just be drifting off when my alarm would chime again. And I did the unthinkable. Never ever have done this with any pet. I let her sleep in my bed with me because she was whining nonstop when crated. She instantly cuddled up in the curve of my back and and slept deeper than she has since coming home. I imagine it has something to do with being in a kennel 24/7 for almost a week. Hoping she lets me nap at some point today. My eyes feel like a sandstorm blew through and I stood in the center of it with my eyes and brain open and exposed.


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## Chuck94!

Glad to hear she's back!


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## Jchrest

Has anyone successfully trained a dog out of a bed when they were allowed temporary access to said bed? I need sleep. She just got her tube feeding and I wheeled her out for a bathroom break, but I can’t keep my eyes open. She won’t sleep in her crate now. I want to put her back in my bed just to catch an hour or two of sleep. But I also don’t want to create an issue of her always in my bed. DH would probably flip if he knew. He loves the dogs, and was the one that actually encouraged me to allow them on the couches, which I NEVER allowed. But he is OCD about the bed. There can’t be a wrinkle in the sheet, a grain of sand on the bed, and the blankets have to be at precise angles or he cannot sleep. We are still in separate rooms at this point, the stairs are just too much for me with or without the dogs vying for space on the stairs. But I will eventually be back upstairs, or we have been talking about expanding the master downstairs and he would move down with me. 

Should I suck it up and just deal with the lack of sleep? Try to sleep through the whining? Or let her in my bed where she sleeps like a rock right next to me?


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## Koda'sMom

Koda is not allowed on furniture but i do occasionally let her on the bed with me. I did train her that she was allowed on the bed ONLY when invited and she knows what off means.

Honestly do whatever you need to in order to get sleep and rest because you are still recovering yourself!


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## Sabis mom

I have always had a pothos in my house. They are mildly toxic. I let the dogs chew on it on purpose. It causes numbness and mild swelling of tongue. It also tastes awful. Not a single pup has ever chewed it more then once, and they never touch other plants afterwards. Call it tough love.
You did nothing wrong and I am happy to hear your baby is doing better.


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## Saco

You can train a dog to do anything, so I wouldn't stress over it. Get some sleep!


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## cvamoca

Jchrest said:


> Has anyone successfully trained a dog out of a bed when they were allowed temporary access to said bed? I need sleep. She just got her tube feeding and I wheeled her out for a bathroom break, but I can’t keep my eyes open. She won’t sleep in her crate now. I want to put her back in my bed just to catch an hour or two of sleep. But I also don’t want to create an issue of her always in my bed. DH would probably flip if he knew. He loves the dogs, and was the one that actually encouraged me to allow them on the couches, which I NEVER allowed. But he is OCD about the bed. There can’t be a wrinkle in the sheet, a grain of sand on the bed, and the blankets have to be at precise angles or he cannot sleep. We are still in separate rooms at this point, the stairs are just too much for me with or without the dogs vying for space on the stairs. But I will eventually be back upstairs, or we have been talking about expanding the master downstairs and he would move down with me.
> 
> Should I suck it up and just deal with the lack of sleep? Try to sleep through the whining? Or let her in my bed where she sleeps like a rock right next to me?



We let our dogs sleep with us. We didn't used to, but over the years we've just become comfortable with having them with us. I personally feel much more safe with a dog or 2 in the bedroom. Generally, Ellie starts out with DH as she's an early to bed girl, and Daisy stays up with me, then when I go to bed, we cuddle a bit, then both dogs lay in the doorway and "protect" us from potential attackers. Sometimes Daisy uses her crate, it's always open,but usually she's either in the doorway or in Ellie's bed.


I'll just add, we have 2 double beds stuck together--not for the dogs but to prevent divorce, my husband likes one sheet and no blankets, and I like to be cuddled under 6 quilts. So our "bed" is the size of 2 double beds, lots of room for two people and 2 dogs give or take.


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## GSDchoice

Every 2 hours around the clock? That's like having a newborn baby! It's like the breastfeeding schedule when they first come home!
I remember stumbling around like a zombie.
I sent my husband (who went back to work after 1 week) off to the guest bedroom and I slept in the bed with the baby until the feedings spaced out.

My vote is, for the sake of getting Sleep...yes, the bed!

It will be easy to forbid it later by just closing your bedroom door or crating her, and I think she will eventually forget that she was once allowed up there...hopefully.

(PS And since it's not _actually_ breastfeeding, couldn't DH do one of the feedings so you can get a 4-hr rest? Actually I used to pump some extra bottles so that my husband could do the feeding sometimes and I could get extra sleep...or leave the house...)


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## Jchrest

cvamoca said:


> Jchrest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone successfully trained a dog out of a bed when they were allowed temporary access to said bed? I need sleep. She just got her tube feeding and I wheeled her out for a bathroom break, but I can’t keep my eyes open. She won’t sleep in her crate now. I want to put her back in my bed just to catch an hour or two of sleep. But I also don’t want to create an issue of her always in my bed. DH would probably flip if he knew. He loves the dogs, and was the one that actually encouraged me to allow them on the couches, which I NEVER allowed. But he is OCD about the bed. There can’t be a wrinkle in the sheet, a grain of sand on the bed, and the blankets have to be at precise angles or he cannot sleep. We are still in separate rooms at this point, the stairs are just too much for me with or without the dogs vying for space on the stairs. But I will eventually be back upstairs, or we have been talking about expanding the master downstairs and he would move down with me.
> 
> Should I suck it up and just deal with the lack of sleep? Try to sleep through the whining? Or let her in my bed where she sleeps like a rock right next to me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We let our dogs sleep with us. We didn't used to, but over the years we've just become comfortable with having them with us. I personally feel much more safe with a dog or 2 in the bedroom. Generally, Ellie starts out with DH as she's an early to bed girl, and Daisy stays up with me, then when I go to bed, we cuddle a bit, then both dogs lay in the doorway and "protect" us from potential attackers. Sometimes Daisy uses her crate, it's always open,but usually she's either in the doorway or in Ellie's bed.
> 
> 
> I'll just add, we have 2 double beds stuck together--not for the dogs but to prevent divorce, my husband likes one sheet and no blankets, and I like to be cuddled under 6 quilts. So our "bed" is the size of 2 double beds, lots of room for two people and 2 dogs give or take.
Click to expand...

Hahaha, we are opposites too. Our bed is a California King, which means two split full size mattresses, with separate adjustable bases, because of DH’s sleep apnea. So he has one half upstairs, and I have one downstairs for now. I have a movable A/C unit, set to 62 (its the lowest the settings allow), and a high velocity fan blowing in my face all night. Has to be pitch black dark, and I have to wear a sleeping mask on top of that. I have to have only one blanket, no top sheet, and the messier the bed, the better I sleep! DH has a top sheet, and two weighted blankets. I can’t, I tried for a few weeks when we moved in together, and I woke up in a panic constantly because it feels like someone is holding you down. He doesn’t move at all, literally not once. I sleep like a MMA fighter struggling for the win ?. He also likes it to be warm while I prefer frigid rooms. I sleep with the window open, the A/C unit running, and the fan on even in winter, while he wants the heater at 78, and I wake in a pool of sweat. I have a feeling we are both sleeping much better in separate rooms for now!


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## Jchrest

GSDchoice said:


> Every 2 hours around the clock? That's like having a newborn baby! It's like the breastfeeding schedule when they first come home!
> I remember stumbling around like a zombie.
> I sent my husband (who went back to work after 1 week) off to the guest bedroom and I slept in the bed with the baby until the feedings spaced out.
> 
> My vote is, for the sake of getting Sleep...yes, the bed!
> 
> It will be easy to forbid it later by just closing your bedroom door or crating her, and I think she will eventually forget that she was once allowed up there...hopefully.
> 
> (PS And since it's not _actually_ breastfeeding, couldn't DH do one of the feedings so you can get a 4-hr rest? Actually I used to pump some extra bottles so that my husband could do the feeding sometimes and I could get extra sleep...or leave the house...)


4 kids here, and yes, it’s exactly like bringing a newborn home and waking to breastfeed. Except I have to actually get up and prepare and warm her food, clean her line, do one of the meds, wait 10 minutes, do her feed (which takes 30-45 minutes, wait another 10 minutes, and give the other dose of meds. With the newborn, I could pull them into bed with me and be feeding in seconds. DH could take over a feeding, but he’s working two jobs now, I wouldn’t feel right making him wake up while I’m at home all day. It’s only for a week thank god, next week she can go longer, and may be able to lap a slurry. For now, it’s the largest amount via tube feeding that is safe. Not sure why? I can certainly ask the vet at the next appt on Friday! 

She is still a whiny whimpering thing if I crate her, so I’ve given up for now. They have always slept in our room, just not on the bed, so hopefully it won’t be hard to transition her back to the crate once she’s feeling better.


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## GSDchoice

Wow, hang in there! 
That sounds utterly miserable! 

I think sleeping with you is nice, it might actually help her to heal faster if she gets deeper rest. 
I don't think it's a biggie in the long run.


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## cvamoca

GSDchoice said:


> Wow, hang in there!
> That sounds utterly miserable!
> 
> I think sleeping with you is nice, it might actually help her to heal faster if she gets deeper rest.
> I don't think it's a biggie in the long run.


I agree, her physical and mental needs right now (and yours,too) are paramount, and whatever it takes, it takes. Eventually I'm sure you will be able to wean her off when she feels better and more settled back at home. Tell DH it's all part of being a doggie dad-- he likely already knows all that, LOL.


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## tim_s_adams

Sabis mom said:


> I have always had a pothos in my house. They are mildly toxic. I let the dogs chew on it on purpose. It causes numbness and mild swelling of tongue. It also tastes awful. Not a single pup has ever chewed it more then once, and they never touch other plants afterwards. Call it tough love.
> You did nothing wrong and I am happy to hear your baby is doing better.


You're mean...in a good way LOL! Nothing like letting a dog decide for themselves to really learn something!


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## Jchrest

No update to report. She’s still clingy, whiny, and has zero energy. It’s excepted though, the vet did walk me through what she would be like for the first one-two weeks. Still won’t lap slurry, so still tube feeding. She’s still sleeping in my bed with me, but shhhh, don’t tell DH! Lol


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## Springbrz

@Jchrest how is Serian doing? Has she been able to have her feeding tube removed?


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## Jchrest

Springbrz said:


> @Jchrest how is Serian doing? Has she been able to have her feeding tube removed?


Tube was removed this morning. She’s still weak, can’t have her around the other dogs, but she’s so happy to be home and eating again. She attacked the slurry like she’d never be tasting food again. Two feeding tubes by 6 months, I just feel horrible. She’s taking it much better than I am! DH busted her in my bed. He just shook his head and tried to hide the smile, but I caught him. Lol. She still has one more week of meds, one of which makes her drowsy, so maybe she will perk up when meds are done. Still have our appt with the GI, and were able to get in with the cardiologist in the same practice. Vet says her heart sounds perfect, but I won’t rest easy until I get her double checked. I have a few pics of her cuddled up with me in bed, but the walls are black, comforter is black, and she is black, so it looks like I have half a beard, you can’t see her at all! Lol


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## dogma13

That's great to hear


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## Springbrz

Thank you for the update. Serian will perk up. She is a tough little nugget. Fighter for sure. I think she's earned the privilege of sleeping in the bed. I think it might be doing you some good having her there too.


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## Jchrest

Having furniture moved around, and Floki got in with Seiran. She wasn’t too happy about it. He went straight for DH and stole her spot. But she’s on the mend! Didn’t want to play with Floki at all, but I get it, she has very low energy still. Just thought I’d share a pic!


----------

