# Too socialize reactive puppy or not??



## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Ok yes i know there are hundreds of threads on socialization but I am kind of in a bind. We have a WL from a reputable breeder with great parents with solid nerves and stable temperaments. My question is with our 15 week old puppy. From day one he went to work with me 5 days a week around 50 employees, tow trucks, plenty of loud noises. We have taken him to the park, department stores, pet stores pre schools etc. Always excited to great people and was great with my parents dogs. He was perfect and nothing seemed to bother him until 14 1/2 weeks of age. He now barks at unknown dogs, unknown people, certain noises and etc (hackles never up). Once approached he is fine but its getting to that point that is off putting. Example: Today went to petsmart and we had him in the cart, every dog that came by he would watch them and bark at them. Doesn't seem to be aggression but more being unsure. Then took him out front of petsmart and sat him 20 feet from the door to work on redirecting, he would bark at some people and most dogs. 

Sorry here comes the question: We have puppy classes that start this weekend, I have a feeling he will be uncomfortable. What to do? Do i rethink socialization and not force it? Just looking to have a stable non reactive dog.

I have read https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNG39qPnN42bKcCph4M1042gofW-Zg and find it very informative but would like some info in my case.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

If you went to a reputable breeder, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help you. They might know a lot more about your dogs temperament and genetics. 
How much of this "reactivity" is on leash? How does he react off leash? 
Puppy classes are not necessarily the best scenario for puppies. It works for some, but not all. 
I went with 1:1 training so that I could learn how to train my dog. I didn't see a need for puppy group classes as I'm my dogs friend. Not every other dog. 
But with that said, what are your goals for your dog? What do you want?


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> If you went to a reputable breeder, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help you. They might know a lot more about your dogs temperament and genetics.
> How much of this "reactivity" is on leash? How does he react off leash?
> Puppy classes are not necessarily the best scenario for puppies. It works for some, but not all.
> I went with 1:1 training so that I could learn how to train my dog. I didn't see a need for puppy group classes as I'm my dogs friend. Not every other dog.
> But with that said, what are your goals for your dog? What do you want?



Gave the breeder a call today so I'm sure I will hear back tomorrow.
Reactivity is the same on and off leash so not leash reactivity.
Yeah I cancelled his group class and looking for more of a 1 on 1 approach as well. Have an email into Lisa Maze and also looking at menlo park Sch.
My goals are a stable family dog with advanced obediance, possible schutz or protection.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think puppy classes at his age are the best thing for him. Some classes have playtime with the pups as part of the class, that part I wouldn't push. If he is comfortable fine, if not then let it go. He will learn how to work with distractions and the end result should be a pup that can ignore and be neutral around other dogs. At this age, it's more frustration then anything. Redirection is good, but you gotta remember that at this age they aren't great with focus and they are very curious about everything. Take the class, explain to the trainer what you need help working on and if it's a good trainer they will teach you what to do. I have never been disappointed in any of the classes I took with my dogs. I don't need to take the classes, I know them by heart(I have several dogs) but I still take each dog through 3-4 classes each for the distractions, minimal socialization and exposure. One on one won't give that to you or the dog. I've never done one on one, but I would not have an issue with it if the dog was older and I was looking for training on one or two specific things. Group classes are good for general obedience and teaching multiple commands.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think sometimes those big classes even the ones with non interaction and controlled can be a bit much for a unsure pup. It is great to learn and practice focus exercise but I don't think it benefits a young pup who is unsure.
We recently got a new pup at 12 weeks old I started puppy class at 13 weeks old. I took her to puppy class as I saw she had no problem adjusting to her new home slept the night in her crate first night got along with all our dogs Enjoyed meeting friends and family members. Had fun walk through the park even shopped at home goods and everyone loved her at the vets office. She is so easy and well behaved it is actually a lot quieter around here now then before we had her. So even only having her a week thought puppy class would be not to much. She barked at all the pups in class was uncomfortable around the trainer- I was a bit surprised. I know she barked at max a bit while on walks as she was excited and wanted to play with him but she was more unsure in puppy class even if many of the pups were behaved. I decided to take her out of puppy class and to more of a smaller one on one interactions even if it just on focusing on me and greeting and interacting with a pup or dog I know and that she's comfortable with. I just do not know many people with dogs and pups that is the dilema. Our regular walks or stroll through a Petco does enable me to practice focusing exercises and now having two dogs constantly interacting at home it enable me to even practice more of the focusing. we were able to play with friensds dog and pup -barking at first but with some time she was able have fun with. Those quick few second meetings I don't think will benefit her as just cause frustration and more unsureness. These are just my thoughts as I am currently in it. It is important to speak to your breeder as I'm sure he or she will be able to guide you what is best for you and your pup.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

These growing pups go through "phases". People always talk about Fear Phases. I see that they come and go seemingly random sometimes. If in doubt, step back and take a breather. Let your pup be a pup.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pup is frazzled with over stimulation .

he hasn't been allowed to just be pup --- eat in peace , sleep undisturbed, go wild for 20 minutes then crash , be social with the FAMILY he belongs to , his bonded group , that he trusts and responds to .

you want him as a stable family member -- but you haven't given him the normal reality and rhythm of a stable family.

your place of business sounds like a successful bustling enterprise , which demands your attention . So there has been no quiet focused one on one with the pup . No distractions .

the employees come and go , they greet , they socialize with the pup. Heck , who wouldn't ?

they come , they go, the pup hasn't established where he belongs . Who is his family? Who and where is his home?

It is always a good idea to have a shut down period for a few weeks . 

and this is not meant as a criticism on your efforts - doesn't come across right in print.

everyday for him has been a circus , a trial to get through the day.

pups have gradual emergence of awareness.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

llombardo said:


> I think puppy classes at his age are the best thing for him. Some classes have playtime with the pups as part of the class, that part I wouldn't push. If he is comfortable fine, if not then let it go. He will learn how to work with distractions and the end result should be a pup that can ignore and be neutral around other dogs. At this age, it's more frustration then anything. Redirection is good, but you gotta remember that at this age they aren't great with focus and they are very curious about everything. Take the class, explain to the trainer what you need help working on and if it's a good trainer they will teach you what to do. I have never been disappointed in any of the classes I took with my dogs. I don't need to take the classes, I know them by heart(I have several dogs) but I still take each dog through 3-4 classes each for the distractions, minimal socialization and exposure. One on one won't give that to you or the dog. I've never done one on one, but I would not have an issue with it if the dog was older and I was looking for training on one or two specific things. Group classes are good for general obedience and teaching multiple commands.


This is kind of where I was at. I've wanted to do puppy classes for the sake of socialization but mostly for him to become aloof to all the distractions. I think group classes would be off-putting for a short bit to him but would help him in the long run. And one on one sounds great but i feel it wouldn't necessarily be to the same benefit as a group class in my situation. So here I am stuck between a rock and a hard place, rock ( take a chance and expose him to the group class, hoping he won't be over stimulated and create a neg association/ hard place (step back and put socialization off to the side)


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> I think sometimes those big classes even the ones with non interaction and controlled can be a bit much for a unsure pup. It is great to learn and practice focus exercise but I don't think it benefits a young pup who is unsure.
> We recently got a new pup at 12 weeks old I started puppy class at 13 weeks old. I took her to puppy class as I saw she had no problem adjusting to her new home slept the night in her crate first night got along with all our dogs Enjoyed meeting friends and family members. Had fun walk through the park even shopped at home goods and everyone loved her at the vets office. She is so easy and well behaved it is actually a lot quieter around here now then before we had her. So even only having her a week thought puppy class would be not to much. She barked at all the pups in class was uncomfortable around the trainer- I was a bit surprised. I know she barked at max a bit while on walks as she was excited and wanted to play with him but she was more unsure in puppy class even if many of the pups were behaved. I decided to take her out of puppy class and to more of a smaller one on one interactions even if it just on focusing on me and greeting and interacting with a pup or dog I know and that she's comfortable with. I just do not know many people with dogs and pups that is the dilema. Our regular walks or stroll through a Petco does enable me to practice focusing exercises and now having two dogs constantly interacting at home it enable me to even practice more of the focusing. we were able to play with friensds dog and pup -barking at first but with some time she was able have fun with. Those quick few second meetings I don't think will benefit her as just cause frustration and more unsureness. These are just my thoughts as I am currently in it. It is important to speak to your breeder as I'm sure he or she will be able to guide you what is best for you and your pup.


Well sounds like we are in sort of the same boat. Yeah we don't know anyone with a stable dog either so it makes it hard. How was your girl when meeting dogs on walks? If barking was it more out of excitement? I think I'm just at a loss because I feel like whatever i decide could have an impact on him. Not giving him socialization I'd be afraid it could turn into fear or fear aggression, and over tim could cause that as well. What to do what to do. How old is your girl now and any changes??



car2ner said:


> These growing pups go through "phases". People always talk about Fear Phases. I see that they come and go seemingly random sometimes. If in doubt, step back and take a breather. Let your pup be a pup.


So this is what I'm hoping is that it is just phase and hoping this is what i hear from the breeder.. But if more than a phase I might have a problem.. This is another thing I kind of have trouble understanding is what let your pup be a pup means? We've done a lot of obedience but always positive never negative, have always redirected any negative habits and have never been to controlling. so does it mean to back off obedience, does it mean not to bring him out for socialization ( I don't mean forced either where we try and run into people and things but just taking him out for walks and to see new places)


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't know that a trainer or class would be any help or that you'd need it for this. I think its just a matter of calming things down a little knowing that as he grows he's going to be more aware of different things then he was last week, so you don't put him into situations like the front door of petsmart, but you don't seclude him from life either. Don't change what he's ok with, but don't overwhelm him with too many new things. You can figure out the balance.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

carmspack said:


> pup is frazzled with over stimulation .
> 
> he hasn't been allowed to just be pup --- eat in peace , sleep undisturbed, go wild for 20 minutes then crash , be social with the FAMILY he belongs to , his bonded group , that he trusts and responds to .
> 
> ...


I know its not meant as criticism but I must say this isn't us. He eats in peace, sleeps in peace, goes crazy for more than 20 mins and then crashes on his own.

I feel we have been very stable and never have I mentioned I don't give him any one on one with no distractions or have anything I said sounded like we are unstable. He has the same routine everyday, M-F he goes to work with me where he gets 20 mins of just me and him playtime, then he goes into the office where he greats everyone on his own and then it is time for my office where he is the rest of the day, besides when I take him out for play training and to say hi. He is one on one with me %70 of the day.

He definitely knows his home as this is where he is happiest right belong side work where he is just as happy.

Everyday has definitely not been a circus for him. I know you probably didn't mean it in this way but I did take a little offense as you really didn't know what our routine or training was.
Definitely thank you for the info and do understand where you are coming from and definitely agree with you!!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Havokk said:


> I know its not meant as criticism but I must say this isn't us. He eats in peace, sleeps in peace, goes crazy for more than 20 mins and then crashes on his own.
> 
> I feel we have been very stable and never have I mentioned I don't give him any one on one with no distractions or have anything I said sounded like we are unstable. He has the same routine everyday, M-F he goes to work with me where he gets 20 mins of just me and him playtime, then he goes into the office where he greats everyone on his own and then it is time for my office where he is the rest of the day, besides when I take him out for play training and to say hi. He is one on one with me %70 of the day.
> 
> ...


Remember, its difficult to communicate through written words in this setting. I'm sure if you had spoken over the phone, there would be nothing to take offense with.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Remember, its difficult to communicate through written words in this setting. I'm sure if you had spoken over the phone, there would be nothing to take offense with.


Definatley agree with you and appologize if I came off rude at all. Just wanted to clarify. Everything you said I agreed with just didn't really fit us. But I'm sure there's things I need to work on and stability could always improve.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't know that a trainer or class would be any help or that you'd need it for this. I think its just a matter of calming things down a little knowing that as he grows he's going to be more aware of different things then he was last week, so you don't put him into situations like the front door of petsmart, but you don't seclude him from life either. Don't change what he's ok with, but don't overwhelm him with too many new things. You can figure out the balance.


Definatley agree I'm just having a hard time finding middle ground at this point. He used to be great at the park (not dog park) where we would train and fetch, but with his reactiveness don't know if I should keep doing that. Definatley want to take him on short hikes and walks downtown but have a feeling he will react to certain people and don't want to push it. 

I think my biggest concern is we had a very bad fear aggressive and reactive husky who was very protective and I just don't want to go through that again. So whatever this is I want to find the best possible solution.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Havokk said:


> Ok yes i know there are hundreds of threads on socialization but I am kind of in a bind. We have a WL from a reputable breeder with great parents with solid nerves and stable temperaments. *My question is with our 15 week old puppy. From day one he went to work with me 5 days a week around 50 employees, tow trucks, plenty of loud noises. *We have taken him to the park, department stores, pet stores pre schools etc. Always excited to great people and was great with my parents dogs. He was perfect and nothing seemed to bother him until 14 1/2 weeks of age. He now barks at unknown dogs, unknown people, certain noises and etc (hackles never up). Once approached he is fine but its getting to that point that is off putting. Example: Today went to petsmart and we had him in the cart, every dog that came by he would watch them and bark at them. Doesn't seem to be aggression but more being unsure. Then took him out front of petsmart and sat him 20 feet from the door to work on redirecting, he would bark at some people and most dogs.
> 
> Sorry here comes the question: We have puppy classes that start this weekend, I have a feeling he will be uncomfortable. What to do? Do i rethink socialization and not force it?* Just looking to have a stable non reactive dog.*





carmspack said:


> pup is frazzled with over stimulation .
> 
> he hasn't been allowed to just be pup --- eat in peace , sleep undisturbed, go wild for 20 minutes then crash , be social with the FAMILY he belongs to , his bonded group , that he trusts and responds to .
> 
> ...


--------
Carmen offers some good insight worth thinking about. I'll add my personal experiences - 

I've raised two German Shepherds in a shop/store setting (family business), from 8 weeks on. *However* - the dog's daily "work" is *me*. Not sitting at the register, not plunked down by the door as a greeter.

As puppies, I keep a crate and a sheet in my office (quiet area). Puppy gets used to sleeping quietly by my feet, listening to familiar voices coming and going, and when it's a chaotic day, the sheet gets draped over the crate for nap times.

There's no big rush, they're exposed to semis, diesel trucks, skidsters, leaf blowers, etc. over several months. If something makes them look unsure, that's fine, we can go look at it again in a week or so. As they get a little older, they tag along and follow me when I'm walking around the property, helping customers, working outside, whatever. That's when they start meeting customers, learning to sit or stand politely. I don't encourage them to chase or jump all over my coworkers - they recognize my coworkers, and become good buddies with some of them over time - but both of my dogs understand with absolute clarity that *I* am the person that must be listened to and followed. This understanding makes for pleasant days at work, unbothered coworkers, and a non-frantic dog. My dogs don't dislike my other coworkers, they don't bark at them, but they usually just ignore them unless we're all sitting down in the lunch room. My coworkers don't play ball or tug with my dogs, at my request. That's my job. I don't want my dogs harassing coworkers while they're trying to do their jobs, and I don't want my dogs dashing across the parking lot after a ball that someone haphazardly chucks in front of a truck.

Other breeds adapt completely differently to being shop dogs. My mechanic has two wonderful labs. They wander his shop, greet everyone, eat lunch with his whole staff, they follow complete strangers out to their cars and beg for treats at the counter, they have dog beds right by the front door. My dogs aren't wired to be like that. It's not their job to guard the door (this behavior may emerge when your puppy gets older and matures, and if so, you'll need to put a stop to it).

All that being said.... once older and more mature, they can make wonderful ambassadors and great workday companions. I'm particularly pleased with how my 1.5 year old has evolved into a happy, cheerful "assistant" that trots around with me during the work day, happy to see her friends and run around the property, equally happy to sleep under my desk when I'm working on my computer. I didn't choose to take her to any "puppy social" type classes, she grew up with my other dog and the dogs of good friends/training buddies. She is polite around visiting dogs at the store. If she reacted inappropriately, she simply couldn't be at the store, for liability reasons and because I could never get my work done. Take it slow, your puppy's relationship with *you *should always be first and foremost.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I dog agree to take a step back. It is frustrating. It is best to have your pup in a no pressure atmosphere. Luna barks a ton some of it is excitement and I think it turns into being unsure when she is all winded up. sometimes her bark at other dogs is completely unsure. I think if she is barking at a pup in a class full of other pups it does put me on edge which she can sense and it does not help. she is 14 going on 15. I just going to make sure her outings are fun making sure she is comfortable if she is going to meet a dog (the dog I will need to know) this is limited. The goal really now if for her to focus on me and not be concerned about the other dogs. down the line I'm thinking of even just a class with one other pup or dog if possible. Right now we have stepped back and doing a smaller setting as I mentioned like a walk through Petco making sure she focus on me, Even a walk with a friends dog may be helpful. I'm trying to be careful not to overdo anything either and make sure any interactions are pleasant. they do got through phases so you want to make sure they have good experiences. I have a dog that is dog reactive he went through puppy class his dog reactiveness in the middle of his classes. his only interaction was with our Chihuahua and my mom's dog who ran him over as a pup. He did not want any dog anywhere near him and still like that although managed. He recently seems less concerned of female dogs. He loves this puppy like it his own pup they are so cute together and he spoils her big time. She has more of interest to interact in other dogs but is still unsure. You are getting great advise on here the posters on this thread are very experienced people.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Havokk said:


> This is kind of where I was at. I've wanted to do puppy classes for the sake of socialization but mostly for him to become aloof to all the distractions. I think group classes would be off-putting for a short bit to him but would help him in the long run. And one on one sounds great but i feel it wouldn't necessarily be to the same benefit as a group class in my situation. So here I am stuck between a rock and a hard place, rock ( take a chance and expose him to the group class, hoping he won't be over stimulated and create a neg association/ hard place (step back and put socialization off to the side)


Exercise him before class, get some energy out. I have 4 dogs that I've recently taken through puppy classes(this is the first time in a long time I'm not in any classes). The classes never had more then 8 dogs and that was rare, we were usually at 2-5 pups. I did not experience any of mine barking at other dogs or being uncomfortable. It was a great bonding experience. Other pups barked and got excited, the trainer took the tims to work with the owner on it. I don't think there were any issues in any of the classes(about 16 classes, each at 8 weeks) after week 2. The pups got comfortable and it was a pleasant experience. I'm not one to baby a dog, life happens and they need to be able to be a part of life, whether it's quiet or busy. I would not pull a dog out of a class after one or even two classes if the dog is barking. You take what you learn at class and work at it when your home too. We actually got homework, I worked my dogs in obedience daily, which makes a difference. It becomes routine and a way of life. I jumped at the chance to bring them around different sounds, people, equipment, etc. they have been on all kinds of equipment, they are outside when I cut grass(not phased by the riding mower). They all turned out to be very well rounded pups. They don't bark at anythin really, not even in the car. You just have to put the work in, get everything in there at a steady pace. Make it fun. I probably looked like a fool playing at the park with my pup. Yep just me and the pup going down the slide, climbing the ladders and all that fun stuff. It must have been a sight to see.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Havokk said:


> Definatley agree I'm just having a hard time finding middle ground at this point. He used to be great at the park (not dog park) where we would train and fetch, but with his reactiveness don't know if I should keep doing that. Definatley want to take him on short hikes and walks downtown but have a feeling he will react to certain people and don't want to push it.
> 
> I think my biggest concern is we had a very bad fear aggressive and reactive husky who was very protective and I just don't want to go through that again. So whatever this is I want to find the best possible solution.


Ok, well maybe the eyes of a trainer would be helpful to you, being able to tell you whats not a big deal. He's not going to be the same as your Husky. He's going to be aware of everything and the reactions of your husky even if they looked the same, probably had a different reason in him. Who's he from? You mentioned Menlo, do you know Tim?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I needed a breather when I read this pup's schedule. What I have done successfully with all pups is to give them plenty of at home time to be pups. But every day I would expose him/her to something new but briefly. Never did I expose them to crowds who doted over them. He needs to learn that people are 'part of the furniture' as well.
I would let it be for a few weeks and just let him calm down. Play, and work with him in 5 minute sessions at home, some happy leash walks in the neighborhood etc. Take off the pressure on him. Let him toddle around with you. There is a thread about over-stimulation by over-socialization here. If he is from stable lineage, you don't have to let him see everything possible. Remember that he is only 15 weeks old! In the wild, they don't even leave the den area at that age. (I know, I know, they aren't wolves anymore.......)


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Excellent advice so far.I agree slowing down and stepping back with your pup is best.IME pups go through phases where they need time to absorb what they've learned about the world so far.Periods to mature a bit more mentally before moving on.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Usually a two week shutdown is recommended for new rescued dogs.

But I think it's something to think about for your puppy. It sounds like you hit the ground running and he is still unsure of the whole situation.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I have to admit I thought the same thing as Carmspack. Go back and read your first message. It's sounds like bedlam for a puppy. Obviously it's not that bad. You explained more in your answer to her. Still, it's like taking an year old child to work everyday. All the noises, stimulation from noises is a lot for a baby. And your pup is a baby. I would have taken him every other day personally for a week or two. I know you want him with you everyday and you're dreaming of him as an adult doing it all with you, but he's being over stimulated. Personally if I took him to the office everyday I would keep him in your office, away from co-workers petting him and only take him out to a quiet area for pottying and playing with you. For exposure I'd take him to quiet places, not a store with lots of stimulation again. I would look for a small puppy class, not one with a lot of puppies in it if you want to do class. A trainer, as someone already said, can help you with what is normal and what is not. The barking could be a stage or it could be a sign of just too much stuff thrown at him to fast and too early. It could be he's saying he's excited and wants to play or that he doesn't want more things around him. We can't tell you because we can't see him when he's doing it. I would not compare him to your husky or you'll find yourself seeing things that aren't really there. It's natural to do and hard to not do, so just don't do it at all. Different dog. There's a new GSD puppy in our class. She barked and growled and jumped at all the dogs the first two times. Last night she just ignored them all and focused mainly on her owner. Her owner brings her to work everyday and the puppy stays in a crate quietly in her office. The puppy doesn't meet people at all. The owner takes her out the back door to a small area for one on one time alone. And how about some pictures??


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> --------
> Carmen offers some good insight worth thinking about. I'll add my personal experiences -
> 
> I've raised two German Shepherds in a shop/store setting (family business), from 8 weeks on. *However* - the dog's daily "work" is *me*. Not sitting at the register, not plunked down by the door as a greeter.
> ...


Sounds like you did everything right! I to do not let him have free roam as I have my part of the office has a door where it is just me and him. He has a crate and a bed in here which is where he spent most of his time but now gets more free roam in the office as long as he is being well behaved. I do take him out a couple times a day and thats when he is allowed to say hi and get out to go see the auto lift, or the mechanics, the abandon cars, tow trucks etc. He is very excited to see fellow employees but gets over them in 2 seconds and is back to me which I love. Too much attention is not good attention. I just wish he was like this out and about like hey there's a dog, or hey there's a person, nah nevermind who cares.. But his work behavior is awesome. He will play and all if i want too but once I'm at the desk he will just kick back or go take a nap in his crate. He has started to get reactive to sounds or objects in the shop but we are getting over those quick, couple barks walk him over there and "hey theres nothing wrong here"

Yeah I don't let anyone play with him with toys except my immediate family but that is rare and little. Only people who train or tug and fetch are my girlfriend and I. 

Thank you for the response and a lot of good info. Sounds like you got a good "employee" there


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> I dog agree to take a step back. It is frustrating. It is best to have your pup in a no pressure atmosphere. Luna barks a ton some of it is excitement and I think it turns into being unsure when she is all winded up. sometimes her bark at other dogs is completely unsure. I think if she is barking at a pup in a class full of other pups it does put me on edge which she can sense and it does not help. she is 14 going on 15. I just going to make sure her outings are fun making sure she is comfortable if she is going to meet a dog (the dog I will need to know) this is limited. The goal really now if for her to focus on me and not be concerned about the other dogs. down the line I'm thinking of even just a class with one other pup or dog if possible. Right now we have stepped back and doing a smaller setting as I mentioned like a walk through Petco making sure she focus on me, Even a walk with a friends dog may be helpful. I'm trying to be careful not to overdo anything either and make sure any interactions are pleasant. they do got through phases so you want to make sure they have good experiences. I have a dog that is dog reactive he went through puppy class his dog reactiveness in the middle of his classes. his only interaction was with our Chihuahua and my mom's dog who ran him over as a pup. He did not want any dog anywhere near him and still like that although managed. He recently seems less concerned of female dogs. He loves this puppy like it his own pup they are so cute together and he spoils her big time. She has more of interest to interact in other dogs but is still unsure. You are getting great advise on here the posters on this thread are very experienced people.


I am as well scared that if he starts barking in class that he might feed off of me if I get a little uncomfortable. Unsure is what I get out of his bark too. He will pull on the leash and stop at the end of it, where he will stand tall and bark (no hackles) tail straight up, very alert this one is. Or it could be a dominance thing but I don't see that in him. 

Well thats awesome that he was able to put the dog reactiveness to the side and take in the little pup  But thank you and yes I plan on keeping the outings as fun as possible with lots of tug and treats.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Havokk said:


> I just wish he was like this out and about like hey there's a dog, or hey there's a person, nah nevermind who cares..


Let me ask you this...

If there were a 2 year old child, and you were exposing this toddler to the world and things he had never seen before, would you expect the toddler to have no reaction?

This is a baby. Give him the down time needed. Let him experience the world from a safe distance. Tell him No when you need to. Reward him for the behavior you want. 

It is unreasonable to expect any animal, including us, to not be suspicious and uncomfortable around things that are new and appear scary. Be your puppy's advocate.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

llombardo said:


> Exercise him before class, get some energy out. I have 4 dogs that I've recently taken through puppy classes(this is the first time in a long time I'm not in any classes). The classes never had more then 8 dogs and that was rare, we were usually at 2-5 pups. I did not experience any of mine barking at other dogs or being uncomfortable. It was a great bonding experience. Other pups barked and got excited, the trainer took the tims to work with the owner on it. I don't think there were any issues in any of the classes(about 16 classes, each at 8 weeks) after week 2. The pups got comfortable and it was a pleasant experience. I'm not one to baby a dog, life happens and they need to be able to be a part of life, whether it's quiet or busy. I would not pull a dog out of a class after one or even two classes if the dog is barking. You take what you learn at class and work at it when your home too. We actually got homework, I worked my dogs in obedience daily, which makes a difference. It becomes routine and a way of life. I jumped at the chance to bring them around different sounds, people, equipment, etc. they have been on all kinds of equipment, they are outside when I cut grass(not phased by the riding mower). They all turned out to be very well rounded pups. They don't bark at anythin really, not even in the car. You just have to put the work in, get everything in there at a steady pace. Make it fun. I probably looked like a fool playing at the park with my pup. Yep just me and the pup going down the slide, climbing the ladders and all that fun stuff. It must have been a sight to see.


Thank you for the advice and as much as I would love to try a class because I know he would excel in every other aspect, I will probably just take a step back and let him absorb the world as he pleases. I think its awesome what you did and how well rounded your pups seem and I have confidence that Havok will be there soon with a little bit of slowing down and absorbing the world around him at a slower pace.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Ok, well maybe the eyes of a trainer would be helpful to you, being able to tell you whats not a big deal. He's not going to be the same as your Husky. He's going to be aware of everything and the reactions of your husky even if they looked the same, probably had a different reason in him. Who's he from? You mentioned Menlo, do you know Tim?


I know he won't be anything like the husky he is already a world of difference but just kind of made me stop in my tracks. Pup is from True Haus kennels and absolutley nothing against them since they have been amazing and so has Havok. Just think its some normal stuff every puppy goes through and I might just be expecting to much at this moment. I do not know Tim but have heard good things about Menlo and the one Im leaning to in my area (East bay CA)


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I needed a breather when I read this pup's schedule. What I have done successfully with all pups is to give them plenty of at home time to be pups. But every day I would expose him/her to something new but briefly. Never did I expose them to crowds who doted over them. He needs to learn that people are 'part of the furniture' as well.
> I would let it be for a few weeks and just let him calm down. Play, and work with him in 5 minute sessions at home, some happy leash walks in the neighborhood etc. Take off the pressure on him. Let him toddle around with you. There is a thread about over-stimulation by over-socialization here. If he is from stable lineage, you don't have to let him see everything possible. Remember that he is only 15 weeks old! In the wild, they don't even leave the den area at that age. (I know, I know, they aren't wolves anymore.......)


Maybe he does have too busy of a schedule and maybe I should back off a little with everything. But I also think I might have made his schedule seem more than it really is because I dont think it really is that much. 1. wake up eat and play 2. Go to work 20 mins early so we can play fetch and train in the field by our work. 3. come in the shop say quick hellos and straight into my office where he stays in there until he needs to go potty. 5. go home, eat dinner, play, train and relax. Definitely need to start taking him on walks around the neighborhood more. Trust me I read every post in the over-socialization thread before and after receiving him. Great stuff in there and definitely haven't forced socialization except for yesterday which I already feel bad for doing so. I know I know he's just so smart and has excelled in obedience farther then i would of thought at this age, that I think he a lot older that he really is.

Now another question is, if it is possible that it is more unsocialization, can not socializing him do more harm?



dogma13 said:


> Excellent advice so far.I agree slowing down and stepping back with your pup is best.IME pups go through phases where they need time to absorb what they've learned about the world so far.Periods to mature a bit more mentally before moving on.


Agree on the excellent advice and the slowing down part. I appreciate it and I too am thinking it is just a phase and maturing will put him where he should be!


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Read this thread on socialization. It had some interesting points:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/400690-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Deb said:


> I have to admit I thought the same thing as Carmspack. Go back and read your first message. It's sounds like bedlam for a puppy. Obviously it's not that bad. You explained more in your answer to her. Still, it's like taking an year old child to work everyday. All the noises, stimulation from noises is a lot for a baby. And your pup is a baby. I would have taken him every other day personally for a week or two. I know you want him with you everyday and you're dreaming of him as an adult doing it all with you, but he's being over stimulated. Personally if I took him to the office everyday I would keep him in your office, away from co-workers petting him and only take him out to a quiet area for pottying and playing with you. For exposure I'd take him to quiet places, not a store with lots of stimulation again. I would look for a small puppy class, not one with a lot of puppies in it if you want to do class. A trainer, as someone already said, can help you with what is normal and what is not. The barking could be a stage or it could be a sign of just too much stuff thrown at him to fast and too early. It could be he's saying he's excited and wants to play or that he doesn't want more things around him. We can't tell you because we can't see him when he's doing it. I would not compare him to your husky or you'll find yourself seeing things that aren't really there. It's natural to do and hard to not do, so just don't do it at all. Different dog. There's a new GSD puppy in our class. She barked and growled and jumped at all the dogs the first two times. Last night she just ignored them all and focused mainly on her owner. Her owner brings her to work everyday and the puppy stays in a crate quietly in her office. The puppy doesn't meet people at all. The owner takes her out the back door to a small area for one on one time alone. And how about some pictures??



Yeah I can understand that he could be getting over-stimulated and maybe thats him letting me know to take a step back.. my plan from the beginning was to not take him everyday but seeing how well he handles everything and nothing bothered him I thought he should have no problem which he really doesnt at work. It would also be very hard for me to go home in the middle of the day to let him out as I don't take breaks or lunches.
Now that is positive hearing the other GSD puppy got over it and was able to strictly focus on the handler and aloof to its surroundings. That is the reason I was planning on a puppy class but seems people think that might do more harm than good for me. Thoughts? 
Sorry I shoulda known


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Let me ask you this...
> 
> If there were a 2 year old child, and you were exposing this toddler to the world and things he had never seen before, would you expect the toddler to have no reaction?
> 
> ...



Of course not and I realize that. I realize that I need to give him his needed downtime. Just want to make sure I am not going to worsen the issue by doing so. 

I don't want to force him but I don't want to seclude him in doing so. I need to make shorter approaches to this and bring him places where just me and him can have fun and hey if he sees something, cool look at it but right back to me afterwards.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Galathiel said:


> Read this thread on socialization. It had some interesting points:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/400690-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


Thanks for the link and yeah I've read and re-read that whole post :surprise::grin2: and that's what brought me to the questions I am asking. Thank you


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Havokk said:


> I know he won't be anything like the husky he is already a world of difference but just kind of made me stop in my tracks. Pup is from True Haus kennels and absolutley nothing against them since they have been amazing and so has Havok. Just think its some normal stuff every puppy goes through and I might just be expecting to much at this moment. I do not know Tim but have heard good things about Menlo and the one Im leaning to in my area (East bay CA)


If you're thinking at all about IPO, I'd contact Tim. He's the helper for Menlo and also a trainer that besides competing himself in the Nationals, had 3 or 4 people that train with him there too. I'm not sure where Menlo is training right now, they lost their field, but Tim would be a good choice and can help you with a good foundation on your pup if you are going to try the sport:

http://tailsofsuccessdogtraining.com/contact/


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Havokk said:


> Sounds like you did everything right! I to do not let him have free roam as I have my part of the office has a door where it is just me and him. He has a crate and a bed in here which is where he spent most of his time but now gets more free roam in the office as long as he is being well behaved. I do take him out a couple times a day and thats when he is allowed to say hi and get out to go see the auto lift, or the mechanics, the abandon cars, tow trucks etc. He is very excited to see fellow employees but gets over them in 2 seconds and is back to me which I love. Too much attention is not good attention. I just wish he was like this out and about like hey there's a dog, or hey there's a person, nah nevermind who cares.. But his work behavior is awesome. He will play and all if i want too but once I'm at the desk he will just kick back or go take a nap in his crate. He has started to get reactive to sounds or objects in the shop but we are getting over those quick, couple barks walk him over there and "hey theres nothing wrong here"
> 
> Yeah I don't let anyone play with him with toys except my immediate family but that is rare and little. Only people who train or tug and fetch are my girlfriend and I.
> 
> *Thank you for the response and a lot of good info. Sounds like you got a good "employee" there *


Happy to share some ideas, and yes, thank you. 

A lot of the recommendations I received when I was raising my first "shop dog" were from people who never did it, and some of their recommendations ended up being useless or counterproductive. Example - "Have the FedEx man give your dog treats so your dog learns to love the FedEx man!" Bad idea, useless idea, stupid idea that resulted in unwanted behaviors and took a while to reverse. What you actually want (in an office) is for your dog to _ignore_ the FedEx man's normal business behavior... 

When your dog gets older and you are working on some more nuanced obedience commands, it'll be normal to have different expectations for workplace behavior vs. household behavior. Example - if someone was scraping and banging on the windows of my house, I expect both of my shepherds would respond initially at full volume. On the other hand, we have our big shop windows cleaned once a month, and it is completely unacceptable for my dogs to bark and bother the window washers while they climb on ladders and bang on the windows.

The room for error at a store is pretty small... Some people (customers) are frightened by this breed in general, and if they feel uncomfortable, they'll leave and spend their money elsewhere. Some children are terrified of dogs, they scream and run. I own some brightly colored bandanas (same distinct color as our business logo/uniform) that I put on my dogs during especially busy days. It drastically reduces the "EEK, what is that dog? Is that a guard dog? Is that a stray?" - unusual reactions from non-dog savvy people. Sounds like a small or insignificant measure, but it seems to instill an automatic understanding of "Oh. That dog _belongs_."

In time, after the initial investment of time and vigilance in training has lessened, I find it very fulfilling to have my dogs as part of my workday. We get up in the morning, we go to work together, we do different things on different days together, we go home. Good luck with your adorable puppy, I wish you both the best.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Havokk said:


> Yeah I can understand that he could be getting over-stimulated and maybe thats him letting me know to take a step back.. my plan from the beginning was to not take him everyday but seeing how well he handles everything and nothing bothered him I thought he should have no problem which he really doesnt at work. It would also be very hard for me to go home in the middle of the day to let him out as I don't take breaks or lunches.
> Now that is positive hearing the other GSD puppy got over it and was able to strictly focus on the handler and aloof to its surroundings. That is the reason I was planning on a puppy class but seems people think that might do more harm than good for me. Thoughts?
> Sorry I shoulda known



He's beautiful! I would look for a S.T.A.R. puppy class, it's for teaching towards the CGC, Canine Good Citizenship, which if he's to be at work for you I would highly encourage you getting with him. It's proofing him in different situations with other people and dogs around him. If he shows trouble with the class, the trainer should be able to tell you this, then pull him and let him grow up a little more. But having a trainer that that understands what your dog is doing and why will help you a lot. And it will give you someone to answer your questions that can actually see the dog to be able to read his body language. If you're able I would also look for someone that is a GSD trainer, that really knows the GSD and what is normal or to be watched with a GSD. Not all trainers know all breeds, they're more of a Jack of all Trades but not a specialty in one. I hope that makes sense.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have always skipped puppy class. Most owners are babying their dogs and there is too much 'cutesy' stuff going on with all the toys and squealing and most pups cannot focus at all. And then there is the "pass the puppy" part where owners swap pups and feed them (their) treats so they learn to "like people" (actually learn that people are treat dispensers). That would be a big NO for me and my pup. I do the first stage in the real world and then take them to a basic obedience class and when they pass these, figure out where their talents are and go from there.


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

peoples definitions of socialization can be radically different and the amount of socialization mostly depends on the pup. A dog with great genetics does not need an intense socialization regiment. But dont get me wrong i believe exposure is a great tool in building a confident dog especially if you are planning on getting into ipo. On the flipside if the dog has poor genetics no amount of socialization will fix it. I would get in contact with your local club and get the pup evaluated and have them give you a recommendation on what and how to do it based on your dog


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think this article has some good information on socialization. 

More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Havokk said:


> I know its not meant as criticism but I must say this isn't us. He eats in peace, sleeps in peace, goes crazy for more than 20 mins and then crashes on his own.
> 
> I feel we have been very stable and never have I mentioned I don't give him any one on one with no distractions or have anything I said sounded like we are unstable. He has the same routine everyday, M-F he goes to work with me where he gets 20 mins of just me and him playtime, then he goes into the office where he greats everyone on his own and then it is time for my office where he is the rest of the day, besides when I take him out for play training and to say hi. He is one on one with me %70 of the day.
> 
> ...


oh well . 

glad you had a look at 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html

I've raised more than a few young pups that went on to work in the most stimulating chaotic , emotionally charged environments as adults. --- 

One of them was a bomb dog in service for 2008 Republican convention Washington.
Another a bomb dog at Houston's major international airport . 
Guide dogs etc etc Too many to list.

They were not shell-shocked as youngsters .

Socializing isn't going to make a bad dog good--- but you can do harm and make what would have been a good dog "bad" . 

Early lessons and early experiences are so important.

In the olde training for real life work -- the young dogs experienced things vicariously , as apprentices . They were kept below the threshold . The threshold was moveable not rigid .

In your shop situation if it were me I might take the dog into the environment when only a few employees are lingering around and the major commotion has subsided. 
Walk around the tow trucks . Go onto the floor , go into your office to close things down and then head to the car to go home.

A little splash in the kiddle pool , not caught in the wall of water of a tsunami wave . Little bits at a time .

when something/ someone is reactive the sense of mastery is gone , security is gone , the feeling of being able to affect an outcome or an environment is gone.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

I wanted my puppy to be exposed to a lot of people and other dogs to 'socialize' her. I created a puppy that was more focused on other people and dogs than me. I won't make that mistake again. At 15 months she is now neutral towards people she doesn't know but still gravitates towards other dogs. I'm working hard to get her to neutral. I made this work unnecessarily hard because I wanted to 'socialize' her. She's social alright and too outwardly focused. 
OP, you have a great looking pup! Hope he doesn't become over stimulated from all that 'socializing.' Steve Strom mentioned Tim Cutter. I'd see him for training or Chee Lam up in Dixon on Sundays. Chee's 14 mo old pup is so dialed in to him.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes he is a great looking pup .


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

So before I reply to everyones responses I would like to share what we did today. After talking to my breeder who was very helpful, per her suggestion I decided to try a puppy class . I cancelled my sirius puppy training as I thought it would be to in your face social. I called local trainers and got some good leads on puppy classes and my situation. I left voicemails with a couple classes and heard back from one tonight at 5.. After talking with her about her class, my situation and exactly how her class goes I felt very comfortable and thought this would be a great opportunity. (class was completely booked but she made a spot for me because of the situation). So we got there just in time and as soon as we get out of the truck there is already barking coming out of the class. Havok starts reacting and barking so I take a couple minutes and redirect him until he is calm to go in..

Inside was exactly what every puppy class should be in my opinion. 8 dogs who all had their cubicle with honeycomb gates. Blankets were draped over so you couldn't see the dogs to the side of you. Fronts were open so you could see across the room puppies (20 feet away).. We got to our cubicle Havok barked once and I redirected him to me. From that bark on he was focused on me for the next hour. I think he broke his sit or stay a total 3 times the whole class. During the class we did obedience work and played tug. He was defiantly alert but did not seem fazed one bit (there was a german shepherd pup approx. 6 months who was very reactive and did not stop barking the entire time. Havok was not phased. He got to go to the center of the room to show some obedience and then back to his cubicle.

So I must say I am very pleased with the class (Dodger Paws in Pleasanton). They bent over backwards for me and I couldn't be more pleased. 

I feel like this was a good socialization for him. He had lots of distractions and through them all, was more focused on me with no reactivity. So lets here your opinions??? good or bad!


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> I think this article has some good information on socialization.
> 
> More Harm than Good: 3 Reasons Why I Never Socialize my Puppies | The Collared Scholar


Loved this article! Thanks for the post as it makes so much sense. Even though how good he did in puppy class today I talked to the trainer after and told her I am going to take a step back and pull back on the socialization.


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## CarrieJo (Oct 1, 2016)

My idea of socializing a puppy is just getting them used to situations and people. I just never thought of dog to dog socializing. Kinda like homeschooling. People say what about socialization? Biggest joke out there. When you home school you have to be careful to not socialize too much so you can get your work done. 

I guess I never have worried about it because we always have more than one dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't see a problem to be fixed....he is a puppy for gawd'sake! You are not going to train maturity into him.....let a puppy be a puppy. Carmen gave good insight. Absorb what she said, too much, too fast, Is what will also bring overstimulation to immature pup. I think pup is fine from your description.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just something to think about when it comes to your dog and these types of classes. One thing I think people struggle with when they have a dog from some working lines that can be a little stronger temperament, a more determined, drivey dog then whats generally in those classes, is depending on things like cubicles and things that restrict and restrain, separate from whats in front of the dog. They lose sight of actually teaching the dog to behave and deal with life, it gets harder and harder because the dog builds frustration and resistance to being restrained. Redirect turns into bribing and begging, it just gets harder and harder.

I don't mean that's an absolute done deal or anything with your pup, but its just something to keep in mind. Really, I get the idea your actually doing better with him then you may think, but working with someone is going to help you know that for sure.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

The one thing I don't like about this idea is you're working in a vacuum. There is not trainer actually seeing if you're doing things right or wrong. Yes, they probably walk past you occasionally, but odds are most of their attention is on the ones like the older shepherd who is having problems. And again, your pup is in a situation with noise stimulation, he can't see it, he can only hear it. 


The reason I encourage S.T.A.R. classes for puppies who especially are going to be around the public as an adult is a CGC is an actual certification for your dog that proves your dog can safely be around people in public places. The most important thing you get with a CGC certificate is proof of your dog's good character in case it should ever come into question.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote
"After talking to my breeder who was very helpful, per her suggestion I decided to try a puppy class"

"I called local trainers and got some good leads on puppy classes and my situation"

"left voicemails with a couple classes and heard back from one tonight at 5."

" talking with her about her class, my situation "

"I must say I am very pleased with the class (Dodger Paws in Pleasanton). They bent over backwards for me and I couldn't be more pleased"

"I feel like this was a good socialization for him."

and finally " Even though how good he did in puppy class today I talked to the trainer after and told her I am going to take a step back and pull back on the socialization."

an invitation "So lets here your opinions??? good or bad!"

Big question do you want advice or attention?

Do you see how YOU are reactive ?

You jump into something without considering things. Action oriented . 

One "trainer" called you back . You should have gone to her class WITHOUT the dog to 
see what she was doing , her method, her rapport , her success in and out of the classroom.
You could have chatted with other people there with her dogs.

Question. How did she handle the "(there was a german shepherd pup approx. 6 months who was very reactive and did not stop barking the entire time.)"
How long had this dog been attending?
Did she deal with the dog ? Did you like how she dealt with the dog? 
And importantly did the behaviour change?

You said that in your opinion what a puppy class should be like. But you have no experience !

I thought it was bizarre .
First time I have heard of this .

I can imagine the owners of the other dogs feeling that they need the PROP , the den of seclusion, the blinkers , in order to create change. How is that going to work when their pup fires off while on a walk and the pup reacts .
Reaction could be avoidance, it could be in a fearful forward drive to repel , or it could be panic and struggle to escape - to bolt and run. 

Have a look at this book Fired Up , Frantic and Freaking Out

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/16280575-fired-up-frantic-and-freaked-out

https://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB1301

Your dog was definitely alert. Your words. That is part of the problem . You need to dial this down .
He doesn't need to be alert , on guard , all the time. 
A comfortable , secure dog would have been copacetic. Alert can have worry at the base - ready for action - reaction.

Your dog doesn't sound like he has a problem . Yet. Don't create one .

You had some good advice from posters in this thread . 

Many agreed that there was too much stimulation. That opinion came from those with
experience raising more than one pup to dog successfully .

You heard from those that learned from their experience, re-thought what they did and what they would do the next time.


Your situation ? Hey that's the easy part , 
Your situation can be changed so easily. No money required. 

Leave the pup at home. 

Engage with quantity and quality time with him where you can focus on him and vice versa .

think before you jump . Don't jump.

Do you like and respect your breeder ? They gave you advice . Let them help you find a good class at a good and appropriate time in the pups life .


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

CarrieJo said:


> My idea of socializing a puppy is just getting them used to situations and people. I just never thought of dog to dog socializing. Kinda like homeschooling. People say what about socialization? Biggest joke out there. When you home school you have to be careful to not socialize too much so you can get your work done.
> 
> I guess I never have worried about it because we always have more than one dog.


Which is what I believe too. I don't believe in forcing a puppy into socialization, I believe that is a misconception and maybe I have made myself sound like that is what I am trying to do since everyone thinks he is being over stimulated. Per the breeder they wanted us to socialize around all environments from the get go for their pups. 



cliffson1 said:


> I don't see a problem to be fixed....he is a puppy for gawd'sake! You are not going to train maturity into him.....let a puppy be a puppy. Carmen gave good insight. Absorb what she said, too much, too fast, Is what will also bring overstimulation to immature pup. I think pup is fine from your description.


\

Thank you, and I am not trying to force maturity into him. More or so I was just looking to see if this was normal behavior for a WL GSD. This is my first WL and just seeing how many other WL parents had this and when it phases out. If it didn't phase out how did they correct it.



Steve Strom said:


> Just something to think about when it comes to your dog and these types of classes. One thing I think people struggle with when they have a dog from some working lines that can be a little stronger temperament, a more determined, drivey dog then whats generally in those classes, is depending on things like cubicles and things that restrict and restrain, separate from whats in front of the dog. They lose sight of actually teaching the dog to behave and deal with life, it gets harder and harder because the dog builds frustration and resistance to being restrained. Redirect turns into bribing and begging, it just gets harder and harder.
> 
> I don't mean that's an absolute done deal or anything with your pup, but its just something to keep in mind. Really, I get the idea your actually doing better with him then you may think, but working with someone is going to help you know that for sure.


That makes sense and that not being able to see what is causing the commotion brings more frustration. I don't plan on continuing the class was just very impressed on how my pup did being put in that situation. I am going to take a step back and start getting info on local Schutzhund clubs and also waiting for a reply from Lisa Maze. Just want some guidance for future training and someone to assess our training.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

carmspack said:


> quote
> "After talking to my breeder who was very helpful, per her suggestion I decided to try a puppy class"
> 
> "I called local trainers and got some good leads on puppy classes and my situation"
> ...


Do not want attention at all and have agreed with everyone and there advice to an extent. People are saying my dog is overstimulated because of work which I don't think is the case. Maybe I am wrong but I believe not. I unfortunately at this moment would find it very hard to find and hour and a half in the day to go home and let him out, tire him out and train. If I can find time I will try that per everyone's recommendation. 

So this is what I am looking for. Yes my pup is alert and yes i can see that per my words. If I were to dial back and completely take him out of these situations ( Leave him at home while I go to work, spend our time at home, every once in a while take him out to to socialize the world) could this have a negative impact? Or strictly positive.

Yes I due have a tendency in certain situations to jump but only when I feel like I am doing the right thing. 

Yes I respect my breeder and there information. I took there advice and applied it. I told her what was going on she said it was normal for there pups. I asked about a class I was thinking about taking, she approved and said it defiantly couldn't hurt the pup. I was planning on not doing classes at all per everyone recommendations but decided to listen to the breeder as they know their dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" I don't believe in forcing a puppy into socialization, "

and yet you do.

" my pup did being put in that situation"

and yet you did.

let the pup chill and mature .


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

carmspack said:


> " I don't believe in forcing a puppy into socialization, "
> 
> and yet you do.
> 
> ...


I guess I keep digging myself into a grave. Never thought I would be making mistakes in the socialization aspect. Thank you and will do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you're serious about IPO, Dave Deleissegues is #1. We're in a good area here though for choices. You have more options here then some other whole states.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> If you're serious about IPO, Dave Deleissegues is #1. We're in a good area here though for choices. You have more options here then some other whole states.


Would love to do some work with him, unfortunately being 2 hours away might make it hard. Looking for something closer towards the Contra Costa area. (East Bay) Any recommendations, already looking at Menlo.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My favorite article on socializing puppies

Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Here's a list of clubs:
https://www.germanshepherddog.com/region-events/?cy=2016&cm=12&re=nw

The two closest, I don't know anything about them except I know people who've been in them, Alameda and Dublin Canyon. Pacific Coast is actually in Dixon, which isn't too bad since they train on Sunday mornings. Menlo is probably less convenient now for you then Morgan Hill. I think they're temporarily in Woodside or something. Way Out West is a pretty successful club, a lot of people like Joel Monroe. Placer in Lincoln is a good club with good helper work, but probably pretty tough to get up there.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> My favorite article on socializing puppies
> 
> Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


I feel like this is so different to the info I've been getting on this post. As this is what I have tried to do. Up until 14 weeks he went to a lot of places with usbut mostly on unknown surfaces and items around our shop. When was uncomfortable (rare) we took him out of the situation and tried another time. I guess when I first saw him react at 14 1/2 weeks is when I felt like maybe he needed more but I guess I was wrong. Just want whats best for my pup.

Thanks for the link!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think there is such a thing as to much, to often. You want to expose them but not overload them. And when they are suspicious of something (I hate the term "reactive". I think it's over used and often misunderstood), as is their nature to be suspicious...it's part of the breed!....how you react is so important.

If it was an object, I would be all happy and go touch it. Once I touched it, he was over it. A person? Give them treats and make a game of it. Another dog? I corrected that. Don't be a bone head. Better? Oh good boy and treat.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Here's a list of clubs:
> https://www.germanshepherddog.com/region-events/?cy=2016&cm=12&re=nw
> 
> The two closest, I don't know anything about them except I know people who've been in them, Alameda and Dublin Canyon. Pacific Coast is actually in Dixon, which isn't too bad since they train on Sunday mornings. Menlo is probably less convenient now for you then Morgan Hill. I think they're temporarily in Woodside or something. Way Out West is a pretty successful club, a lot of people like Joel Monroe. Placer in Lincoln is a good club with good helper work, but probably pretty tough to get up there.


Awesome thank you! Have heard good about Way Out West but is still 1 hour 15 (not bad) Alameda is close though. Any have any info or comments on Alameda Schutzhund??

So now if I am looking into Schutzhund for my pup, is it something I should wait on and let him mature before bringing him to a club??


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> I think there is such a thing as to much, to often. You want to expose them but not overload them. And when they are suspicious of something (I hate the term "reactive". I think it's over used and often misunderstood), as is their nature to be suspicious...it's part of the breed!....how you react is so important.
> 
> If it was an object, I would be all happy and go touch it. Once I touched it, he was over it. A person? Give them treats and make a game of it. Another dog? I corrected that. Don't be a bone head. Better? Oh good boy and treat.


Yeah I guess I probably misuse it as well. I use reactive because when he is unsure the first thing he does is bark. If object i would run over there and put treats on it and then all is well. He only barks at people from a distant so its hard to give people treats, the only thing I can do is redirect. The breeder said once redirecting doesn't work to move to verbal corrections, if still not then start with a small physical and go from there. 

What was your correction used?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Havokk said:


> I feel like this is so different to the info I've been getting on this post. As this is what I have tried to do. Up until 14 weeks he went to a lot of places with usbut mostly on unknown surfaces and items around our shop. When was uncomfortable (rare) we took him out of the situation and tried another time. I guess when I first saw him react at 14 1/2 weeks is when I felt like maybe he needed more but I guess I was wrong. Just want whats best for my pup.
> 
> Thanks for the link!


The most important thing is just paying attention to your puppy. How he handles things, things within reason anyway, tells you what his temperament is and you adjust. The more you read things and try to apply them and fit your dog into them, you may lose sight of whats actually going on. I've had my last 4 dogs with me at work since they were puppies. I'm not disagreeing with anyone, but I can say without a doubt I haven't followed any set rules. UPS giving my Rott treats, yep. Customers wife giving Doc treats, yep. The only draw back is my dogs tail wagging 5000 RPM when she's in the building. He loves our security guard and some drivers more then others. When I say "come" he beelines right to me. They aren't glass. You just use your best judgement on whats too much, you'll know.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Havokk said:


> Yeah I guess I probably misuse it as well. I use reactive because when he is unsure the first thing he does is bark. If object i would run over there and put treats on it and then all is well. He only barks at people from a distant so its hard to give people treats, the only thing I can do is redirect. The breeder said once redirecting doesn't work to move to verbal corrections, if still not then start with a small physical and go from there.
> 
> What was your correction used?


Use a verbal, maybe a light leash pop. Corrections do NOT have emotion. Which is why I like a correction without any verbal with it. So if I correct him with the leash, I don't say anyting. Only a reward when he's broken focus and turned back to me. the first time I had to correct mine for being a bonehead he was a couple months older than yours.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Use a verbal, maybe a light leash pop. *Corrections do NOT have emotion.* Which is why I like a correction without any verbal with it. So if I correct him with the leash, I don't say anyting. Only a reward when he's broken focus and turned back to me. the first time I had to correct mine for being a bonehead he was a couple months older than yours.


I like corrections have no emotion. Haven't given him a physical correction yet, have given him verbal "NO".. Might move to a light physical if barking persists.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If he barks at something, turn him around. That is not very difficult with a 15 week old pup. The moment you turn him around he might start barking at an ant crossing his path.
A correction will not take away his focus. He might not even feel it. You don't need to correct a young pup like yours. It only shows that you are frustrated and not know what to do to redirect him. I would engage him more with you so he doesn't have time to ficus on anything else. It is time to have fun with this puppy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Do not want attention at all and have agreed with everyone and there advice to an extent. People are saying my dog is overstimulated because of work which I don't think is the case."
and "Maybe I am wrong but I believe not"

Then you haven't agreed with everyone! And for some reason you know best . No changes to be expected then.

" I unfortunately at this moment would find it very hard to find and hour and a half in the day to go home and let him out, tire him out and train."

Where do you find the time at work . I believe your work is reaction driven . It takes certain personalities to really handle them well. Sounds like it is a business where YOU are constantly putting out fires .
So where do you find the time at work to have that focused (bond forging) one on one , time to play , time to train?

IF you want to do IPO , travelling that hour to two hours to go to a good club is the norm.
You have to be committed to time spent and to working with your dog.
You complained that one club was still an hour and 15 away from you?
Do you know how many would give their eye-teeth to be that close , have it that easy?
Where do you want them --- home-delivery , a 10 minute walk away? Nice dreaming .

Some clubs like to hook you with bite work , prey drive building because it is exiting and dynamic.

Some really really good clubs won't let you do bite work until you have proven yourself to the club that you are dedicated and won't leave with some half-baked , inadequately taught dog .

How dedicated are you ?

this link provided by Jax Socializing Your Puppy: how it should look | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee 
shows the woman taking her time, taking advantage of little events or challenges that are present in her life and location.
There is no agenda . It is fun, It is focused on the dog . There is spontaneity . 
There is understanding of the big picture "We walk past at least four out of five people without greeting, otherwise her friendliness with be annoying when she is big and strong. "

There is mind stretching and building for self assuredness - competence "Every day she is presented with small problems that she must solve."

Some socialization practices effectively don't help the dog and work on learned helplessness . The dog gives up.

There is no pressure , no clip board and check list in hand with lists that must be completed.

Spontaneous. Focused on the dog in the experience . Fun.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

carmspack said:


> "Do not want attention at all and have agreed with everyone and there advice to an extent. People are saying my dog is overstimulated because of work which I don't think is the case."
> and "Maybe I am wrong but I believe not"
> 
> Then you haven't agreed with everyone! And for some reason you know best . No changes to be expected then.
> ...


Don't know why everything I have said you feel the need to dig me into the dirt. I came to this forum for positive guidance and help with my first WL. Never have I thought I know best nor do I think it.. Which explains the reason I am looking for help on a forum/breeder/trainers.

I am a manager and a tow truck driver who has to go out at a moments notice. When I have time in between my work (hour and a half or so) that time is strictly me and Havok working on engagement and play.

I understand clubs aren't always a practical distance. I am talking to Lisa Maze and plan on working with her, she is about an hour away. I would have no problem driving 1 hour 15 to a club every weekend. 2 and a half hours to be honest not so much. But where is there a problem with me asking for advice on local club that is closer? I'm not going to that club because it is closer but if I heard good reviews from the forums then I would check it out. If none of those got so much rave then I would definitely pick the high quality club over the closer one. I have gotten a lot of good info on here about clubs. Only thing I was asking if someone had personal experience with Alameda

You have picked a part every single word in every one of my posts. It is hard to get out what I am trying to say without it getting twisted. You have basically said I am an unfit owner of a WL GSD.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> If he barks at something, turn him around. That is not very difficult with a 15 week old pup. The moment you turn him around he might start barking at an ant crossing his path.
> A correction will not take away his focus. He might not even feel it. You don't need to correct a young pup like yours. It only shows that you are frustrated and not know what to do to redirect him. I would engage him more with you so he doesn't have time to ficus on anything else. It is time to have fun with this puppy.


Yes which is what I have done, from the first bark I redirect him to me and keep him engaged. And from my understanding if I keep doing this everything else will become background noise and phase out eventually??


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> The most important thing is just paying attention to your puppy. How he handles things, things within reason anyway, tells you what his temperament is and you adjust. The more you read things and try to apply them and fit your dog into them, you may lose sight of whats actually going on. I've had my last 4 dogs with me at work since they were puppies. I'm not disagreeing with anyone, but I can say without a doubt I haven't followed any set rules. UPS giving my Rott treats, yep. Customers wife giving Doc treats, yep. The only draw back is my dogs tail wagging 5000 RPM when she's in the building. He loves our security guard and some drivers more then others. When I say "come" he beelines right to me. They aren't glass. You just use your best judgement on whats too much, you'll know.


I can definitely understand that the more I read things the more I am going to try and force everyone's recommendations to my routine. Really like that you didn't do everything per the "handbook" and don't see any problem with anything mentioned. Also sounds like you have built a solid recall. Are you still attending any clubs at this moment?? 

Appreciate how you've been right to the point with your responses, helpful and respectful.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Havokk said:


> Yes which is what I have done, from the first bark I redirect him to me and keep him engaged. And from my understanding if I keep doing this everything else will become background noise and phase out eventually??


Hopefully if you're diligent. Toy, ball, treats. Tug when his adult teeth have set. I still have to do this at 15 months since I let the world be more interesting. 

Lisa Maze is very animated and engaging. I'm a former client of hers. I'd go to Tim Cutter or Chee Lam before her. I really like Chee. He's a lot calmer than Lisa.

You've got some good GSD ppl (not me) here giving you good advice.


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## Havokk (Apr 5, 2016)

ausdland said:


> Hopefully if you're diligent. Toy, ball, treats. Tug when his adult teeth have set. I still have to do this at 15 months since I let the world be more interesting.
> 
> Lisa Maze is very animated and engaging. I'm a former client of hers. I'd go to Tim Cutter or Chee Lam before her. I really like Chee. He's a lot calmer than Lisa.
> 
> You've got some good GSD ppl (not me) here giving you good advice.


Trust me I am very diligent.

So did you end up over socializing and now your pup is more interested in the surroundings?

Thanks for the recommendations, haven't heard of Chee before. Will give them both a look. 

If you don't mind me asking, what was your reason for going to each one of them? And why do you recommend the other two over Lisa?

Thanks


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Havokk said:


> I can definitely understand that the more I read things the more I am going to try and force everyone's recommendations to my routine. Really like that you didn't do everything per the "handbook" and don't see any problem with anything mentioned. Also sounds like you have built a solid recall. Are you still attending any clubs at this moment??
> 
> Appreciate how you've been right to the point with your responses, helpful and respectful.


I belong to Dave's club. Its an unaffiliated club, but we basically train and trial along with San Jose GSD club and So. County. Dave's the TD of all 3. 

Pacific Coast that trains in Dixon is Chee's club.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Something else to think about in terms of redirecting and over stimulation. I play with my do a lot. I take him all over the place and I play with him and I work with him on ob. If I'm somewhere with him for an hour, about 10 mins of it is spent playing. Be careful you don't start constantly having to entertain and stimulate your dog for him to behave. They're an aware, alert dog. You're fighting against mother nature trying to get them to engage constantly just to avoid the world. Focus on you is finite. A beginning and an end. Sometimes it comes down to "Knock it off" Not "Please look at me."


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Havokk said:


> Trust me I am very diligent.
> 
> So did you end up over socializing and now your pup is more interested in the surroundings?
> 
> ...


Yes

Pm sent.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Just want to say - I really liked Lisa Maze. I came down from Tahoe to see her for a bit. I now train with Weston/Placer - although not an official member because of scheduling and distance.


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