# "Big dogs break down"



## dogmama

I was told that the reason big dogs, e.g., GSD's, don't show much in agility is because they "break down." I'm sure breeding/conformation has a huge influence (as it would with any dog) and my guy's conformation, lineage wise, is excellent (Mom OFA Excellent, Dad Pen-hipped at top 10%). He's a big sturdy guy who plays ball, jumps & has no problems. 

He is 4 years old & we're just starting out (had some issues to work out regarding other dogs, but we're good now.) He's 100 pounds - about 10 pounds over what a lean agility dog should be. We're on a diet. 

Is there something I should do to prolong his agility life? Supplements? Exercises? We're learning to jump carefully (Susan Salo method) and handling (Greg Derrett) so we aren't rushing this. BUT, that comment at a trial yesterday threw me for a loop. So, I thought I'd ask the people who really know GSD's & agility.

Thanks for your help!


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## Elaine

Around here, the 20" dogs are by far the biggest class and I suspect that's because that's the class with all the border collies. There might be a bit fewer of the 24" dogs than in the smaller classes, but they aren't as popular due to size in the pet world. I don't see as many GSDs in agility because so many of them either physically can't jump or don't have the drive to do it. The few I do see are mostly workingline dogs and there aren't very many of them in this area.


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## Jax's Mom

I think it's the same difference as the one between a race horse and a draft horse. They're just bred for a different purpose so asking them to excel at something they're not entirely meant for might be being a little ambitious.


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## doggiedad

great comparison.



Jax's Mom said:


> I think it's the same difference as the one between a race horse and a draft horse.


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## Deuce

doggiedad said:


> great comparison.


I agree. They're not bred specifically for it.


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## doggiedad

if i were doing agility to win i would
get a Border Collie. i've seen Border Collies
do the weave poles so quickly that
it's a slight blur. there's alot of dogs that aren't
built for agility. they can compete but they're not fast enough.
if agility was done by weight class that would be different.

your dog has good hip scores but happens when you start
jumping him and weaving him. that would be my concern.
don't compete in something for you, compete in something
that has a less potentiality to hurt the dog.


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## Emoore

Treat him like a human athlete. Feed him the best quality food you can afford. Keep him lean. Make sure he gets plenty of _*rest*_ and time to recover.


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## AgileGSD

Jora, my GSD was pretty fast. In fact, at one of the last CPE trials I ran her, she was 9 years old and her and a 10 year old BC were the two fastest dogs of any height in their level (Jora being just a second or so faster than the BC). This is her...





Jora isn't oversized though, she's 23" and about 62lbs. I agree that the reason you don't see heavy dogs competing as much is because they often aren't great jumpers. This isn't just giant breeds but also breed which tend to be shorter and stocky. The biggest issue with such dogs I have seen is that they often knock bars, some even when they are run in preferred, which is a jump height lower than what they measure at.

I feel the reason you don't see more GSDs excelling at agility isn't so much a size thing but a drive issue. A lot of the GSDs I have seen competing are just doing because their owner is asking them to, they seem to have no drive for it though and just trot around the course. Also some are just not built for it due to physical exaggerations that have been selected for. My male GSD was driven enough but jumping was awkward for him due to the length of his rear legs.


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## shilorio

its like seeing a mastiff in there, ive seen it, but you dont see it very offten  my gsd has one compititions, but shes about the fourth of the size of a normal one, (48 pounds & 22' i think)


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## doggiedad

"treat him like a human athlete". is a lineman a distant runner,
is a sprinter a lineman, are hockey players figure skaters,
can a center in basketball play catcher in baseball,
can a point guard play center, can a Sumo wrestler
pole vault, can a Chihuahua weight pull, can Frankenstien
moon walk, can a straw weight fight heavy weight? 

all of these people probably eat correctly, train and have
adequate recovery time.



Emoore said:


> Treat him like a human athlete. Feed him the best quality food you can afford. Keep him lean. Make sure he gets plenty of _*rest*_ and time to recover.


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## Emoore

doggiedad said:


> all of these people probably eat correctly, train and have
> adequate recovery time.


Doggiedad, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, but you just made my point. The OP asked "Is there something I should do to prolong his agility life?" I answered the question. 

Lots and lots of people participate in sports that they might not be ideally suited for, but they still participate. Not everybody you see running in the local 10K is designed to be runners, but they're running. I'm a 5'4", 140lb female boxer. Not designed for it, but I like it. Just because you don't have what it takes to be a national-level competitor doesn't mean you can't participate in an activity you enjoy. The OP wants to do agility with her dog. Assuming he enjoys it too, the best thing the OP can do to prolong his agility life is give him great food, keep him lean, and give him adequate rest.


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## dogmama

Emoore said:


> Just because you don't have what it takes to be a national-level competitor doesn't mean you can't participate in an activity you enjoy. The OP wants to do agility with her dog. Assuming he enjoys it too, the best thing the OP can do to prolong his agility life is give him great food, keep him lean, and give him adequate rest.


This is my point exactly. I don't anticipate being able to compete against BC's. Zack is from working Czech lines and seems to have a lot of desire & drive to do agility. Will we fly through weaves? No way - he's too long. Would we have fun? Most definitely. His diet is perfect for him (raw with supplements) he gets daily walks & runs. 

I'm thinking that before I get too involved, maybe I should have him evaluated through x-rays to make sure there aren't any hidden problems in hips & knees. His pain tolerance is very high, so if he started to have problems, I doubt I'd see evidence until it was bad.


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## JKlatsky

We're seeing smaller and smaller GSDs in agility down here. It's almost like people who like them for agility are finding the smallest ones they can find. A good friend of mine went to the GSDCA agility invitational in Utah...and she said she probably had one of the biggest dogs there. Many of them were on the smaller side. It's hard for the big dogs to be as competitive because they simply cannot be as fast as the smaller speedier dogs. 

Heck I see this with my own. Cade at 70lbs and a squarer in build is a good deal faster and more nimble than Argos who is longer and almost 90lbs. Argos can be just as fast...but he needs a straightaway.  I think for that reason I see in my area more females being successful in agility. They're just smaller and more agile than the big hulking males.

But really...I don't think I'd really worry about a bigger dog "breaking down". Train and treat it like you would anything else. A healthy dog is a healthy dog.


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## Jax's Mom

dogmama said:


> I was told that the reason big dogs, e.g., GSD's, don't show much in agility is because they "break down."


If they just "broke down", why would anyone use them for any sport? 
They're just not as good at it as BCs, but if you're having fun, who cares? 
I do schH with Jax and he's from show lines... The sport was just an afterthought because he turned out smarter than I anticipated so I chose a sport that looked challenging... We're like the draft horse at the Kentucky Derby err... racehorse pulling a plow? Whatever, he's pretty!


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## AgileGSD

shilorio said:


> its like seeing a mastiff in there, ive seen it, but you dont see it very offten  my gsd has one compititions, but shes about the fourth of the size of a normal one, (48 pounds & 22' i think)


 That is actually normal sized for a GSD girl. GSDs are not supposed to be huge, heavy boned dogs and many of the ones you see are oversized.

It is a bit odd that people are comparing GSDs to "draft horses". There are breeds which are similar in build to the horse draft breeds but GSDs really shouldn't be one of them. GSDs are supposed to be athletic,_ medium sized _working dogs. 

"The German Shepherd Dog is medium sized, slightly longer than tall, strong and well muscled, bone is dry, the whole dog presenting a picture of firmness." United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Breed Standard


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## Elaine

dogmama said:


> I don't anticipate being able to compete against BC's. Zack is from working Czech lines and seems to have a lot of desire & drive to do agility. Will we fly through weaves? No way - he's too long.


My boy is long and leggy and he flies through the weaves. He's even faster now that the weaves are going to 24". The good news is that there are very few border collies in the 24" class so you don't have to compete against them. When we get a Q, we almost always place.

You want your dog to go as fast as he's physically capable of and you don't compare them to any other breed, like border collies who are wicked fast because they have that crouching thing going so they have a lower center of gravity which makes them faster on turns.


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## JakodaCD OA

keeping your dog in good physical shape is a 'must', good muscle tone, seeing a doggie chiro really helps

And yes, I xray all my dogs prior to starting 'something'..with them, I want to know their physical status, as well as having xrays for future comparison if need be.

There are quite a few gsd's doing agility here in New England, but no, they aren't going to have as long a 'shelf life' as the border collies, aussies and shelties. They are built much differently and handle the physical stress differently.

My now passed, gsd, beat quite a few border butts in her day, usually it was 'border error" LOL 

I was not a weekend warrior, she went to a chiro regularly, but retired her at 8, after knee surgery. 

Don't let the comments get you down, have fun and stay safe, do the best you can do, don't let the competativeness get to you, just have fun


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## GSDElsa

I think that "breaking down" doesn't have anything to do with it other than the typical LB issues that have arisen over the years (HD, arthritis, etc). No reason GSD's can't do agility well, they are just built differently has BC's. But it's also not "their thing" just like SchH is not a border collie thing. I don't think that agility is going to be much harder on a dog than SchH. I mean, have you SEEN the A-frame and size of the jump in just the OB phase?? 

Just like others have said...make sure you dog is healthy, keep him on a good diet, make sure you address any issues and have fun with him. 

And I say  on those people anyway! Elsa is faster than a lot of the BC's and Aussies she's been in class with! They have been wimps!


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## codmaster

Elaine said:


> ........ I don't see as many GSDs in agility because so many of them either physically can't jump or don't have the drive to do it. The few I do see are mostly workingline dogs and there aren't very many of them in this area.


Probably mostly show line GSD's. All of the working line dogs should be able to jump - as they have to in Sch.

Would be fun to see a BC jump the Sch jumps wouldn't it?

Or practice on the bite work? GSD's can do both very well!


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## doggiedad

i was disagreeing with the "treat them like humans". i tried to state that
in the begining of the post. the human athletes eat, sleep, train, recover
but because of body size they can't do the same things.



Emoore said:


> Doggiedad, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, but you just made my point. The OP asked "Is there something I should do to prolong his agility life?" I answered the question.


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## Emoore

doggiedad said:


> i was disagreeing with the "treat them like humans". i tried to state that
> in the begining of the post. the human athletes eat, sleep, train, recover
> but because of body size they can't do the same things.



Dog shouldn't eat well, train hard, rest, and recover?


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## FG167

I would just monitor him, supplement if you want (personal pref - I do it) and if it gives you peace of mind, have his joints x-rayed. I think only basing the enjoyable things to do with your dog that someone could find a reason it's "unsafe" in almost any sport. 

I don't think being made for it is necessary if you are both having a good time (both!) and you don't expect to be the best of the best (yes, Border's are better). My lab is LAZY and we do it because we both have fun. I don't care about anything else. And winning isn't everything - maybe you'll "only" title - who cares.

I've seen GSD's do extremely well and do it for years, and other dogs "made for it" get hurt - and I don't mean an injury like fell off something or hit something - sometimes things just happen. Have fun!!!


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## KZoppa

i dont participate in any of the dogs sports but if i find the right dog, you better believe i'll give it a shot. I'd be interested in flyball and agility and obedience. maybe even Schulzhund. really as long as you're both having fun, its another bonding experience. Have fun with it. If you win YAY!!! if you dont you still win because you got to do it with your dog.


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## Mrs.K

You know, you need to know what is best for you and the dog. As long as agility is fun for you and your dog, why not?

i am so tired of people saying "You can't do this or that because your dog is not bred for it."

Guess what, you can! You can train a draft horse in classical dressage and teach them everything a high profile classical dressage horse can do. It will never look as graceful and they will never be able to compete to the same level as a high profile dressage horse but you can do it and thats the point. 

And by the way, over here there are draft horse races, so they can race! 

You can have a big GSD do agility, you may not be as fast, it may not be as graceful but you can do it. 

As long as YOU and YOUR DOG have fun doing it, do it!

Some people just don't understand that it's not all about competing. Sometimes people do things just because they are fun.


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## dogmama

codmaster said:


> Probably mostly show line GSD's. All of the working line dogs should be able to jump - as they have to in Sch.
> 
> Would be fun to see a BC jump the Sch jumps wouldn't it?
> 
> Or practice on the bite work? GSD's can do both very well!


I have a friend (Kathy Lena) who put a Sch3 on her BC. The biggest criticism was that the bite work appeared to be more play to the BC than actual bite work. But, she did it.


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## MaggieRoseLee

I feel if I keep my GSD's lean and fit. WIth lots of exercise outside of agility training, they'll do just fine. Structurally they are built athletically, like a 'dog' is supposed to be. 

I believe dogs like (for instance) Bassett Hounds/Corgis with the shorter legs and longer backs STRUCTUALLY could have more issues. They aren't built like the typical 'dog' shape that evolution has proved holds up over time in the wild (talking like fox/coyote/wolf type of leg/back ratio...)

CLEARLY a larger dog can't land and turn the same as a BC that weighs 45 pounds. But that doesn't mean they aren't strong enough and agilie enough to run agility well for a 75 pound GSD. 

Physically (and I haven't seen these dogs break down, just struggle) it seems to me that the shoulder height of a dog has more real influence on the course. The tunnels/chute are usually only 24" high, so a long tunnel for a 28" dog is alot of hunched over dog.

Think for ANY dog doing ANY dog sport, key is to get a dog that is structually built well, and if not then know the limitations you may have. Keeping them lean, fit and generally healthy. Then go out and have FUN!


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## AgileGSD

codmaster said:


> Probably mostly show line GSD's. All of the working line dogs should be able to jump - as they have to in Sch.
> 
> Would be fun to see a BC jump the Sch jumps wouldn't it?
> 
> Or practice on the bite work? GSD's can do both very well!


BC ScH Obedience





Same dog as above in protection





SchH2 BC Protection work


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## Mrs.K

That girl needs to learn how to throw... seriously... :help:

The BC is doing great though.


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## Jax08

I don't see why a GSD would break down doing agility, regardless of whether a show line or a working line. My girl is tall at almost 25" and has no problem on any obstacle. I think the key is conditioning. You can't take any dog out and expect them to compete without training and building muscle, regardless of breed.


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## Liesje

doggiedad said:


> i was disagreeing with the "treat them like humans". i tried to state that
> in the begining of the post. the human athletes eat, sleep, train, recover
> but because of body size they can't do the same things.


I was a gymnast, so not exactly a large athlete, and my GSDs are still smaller and lighter than I am, plus they train far less and get far more recovery time.


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## Liesje

Anyway, I don't think one breed is necessarily better than any other. I think a lot of top agility people will go for a BC or BC mix. When you want to compete nationally and internationally, nothing wrong with sticking with what you know and are familiar with. Which goes to show how much is training. I think many of the top agility trainers could take a nice GSD and do very well.

I did read an article recently which an agility trainer was describing the best structure for an agility dog. Not any breed in particular but just what to look for over all. One thing I remember was wanting a dog that is short through the loin and has a strong rear. It's not just about overall length or proportion; note that she compares two different dogs both square but one better (based on her criteria) than the other.

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/10/helen-king-on-structure-evaluation/


The issue is not just size and structure, but proper technique. Look at all the work MRL has done with Glory as a puppy, doing all that flatwork and teaching the dog the *correct* techniques for jumping, so the dog can collect and make fast turns into and off of obstacles. The ability to DO the obstacle is not what makes a dog fast or slow, it's the ability to maintain the speed and drive and work the course in the shortest distances.

Right now in SchH several club members are teaching their dogs to jump for the retrieves and wonder why their dog will brush or push of the jump every time. I'm trying to help them understand that it's not just about whether the dog *can* jump, but the dog must learn to make that jump with the correct technique. I trained my dog to jump like MRL showed me which can be boring at first since the dog starts jumping a height he can easily walk over, but now he is the most consistent dog in the club, he can go back and forth over the 1m jump all day and never touch it.


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## AgileGSD

Liesje said:


> Anyway, I don't think one breed is necessarily better than any other. I think a lot of top agility people will go for a BC or BC mix. When you want to compete nationally and internationally, nothing wrong with sticking with what you know and are familiar with. Which goes to show how much is training. I think many of the top agility trainers could take a nice GSD and do very well.


I think most top agility people buy performance bred BCs for the same reason that top SchH people buy working/sport bred GSDs or Mals. Buying a dog from a breed and lines that are proven in your sport can certainly tip the odds in your favor. That said, I have seen people go buy the most off the wall BC they can find, thinking they will automatically get a great agility dog. Too often they end up with a dog that they can rarely even Q with. Not all handlers are cut out for training and handling such intense, driven dogs. 

And of come people seem to do well with whatever they train though. And there are other breeds that can be very good at agility. Last year a Terv won at the USDAA National over the top BCs. And the AKC Agility Invitational tends to have a much wider range of breeds competing for the top placements. 




Liesje said:


> The issue is not just size and structure, but proper technique. Look at all the work MRL has done with Glory as a puppy, doing all that flatwork and teaching the dog the *correct* techniques for jumping, so the dog can collect and make fast turns into and off of obstacles. The ability to DO the obstacle is not what makes a dog fast or slow, it's the ability to maintain the speed and drive and work the course in the shortest distances.


 Very true. There are dogs which are greater than the sum of their parts, so to speak. Dogs who structurally aren't ideal but have the drive and enthusiasm to excel. And there are dogs with great structure who will never be top level competition dogs. And dogs with outstanding potential in every way, except training/handling. I think the biggest things that will help anyone be more successful would be working on drive building, teaching solid foundation skills, teaching your dog body awareness through tricks and keeping your dog in good physical shape (lean and muscular).


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## MaggieRoseLee

Liesje said:


> The issue is not just size and structure, but proper technique. Look at all the work MRL has done with Glory as a puppy, doing all that flatwork and teaching the dog the *correct* techniques for jumping, so the dog can collect and make fast turns into and off of obstacles. The ability to DO the obstacle is not what makes a dog fast or slow, it's the ability to maintain the speed and drive and work the course in the shortest distances.
> 
> Right now in SchH several club members are teaching their dogs to jump for the retrieves and wonder why their dog will brush or push of the jump every time. *I'm trying to help them understand that it's not just about whether the dog *can* jump, but the dog must learn to make that jump with the correct technique. I trained my dog to jump like MRL showed me which can be boring at first since the dog starts jumping a height he can easily walk over, but now he is the most consistent dog in the club, he can go back and forth over the 1m jump all day and never touch it*.


How much am I loving to hear that! :thumbup:

It's the same for many in the agility world, they just don't get that 'jumping' isn't just something all our dogs do well naturally. Sure they can all fling themselves over an obstacle. But to really understand and jump well is a skill they have to learn.


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## wildo

This thread kinda scares me. I never considered that agility could be harmful to the dog- or at the very least- it could speed issues that would otherwise not be seen for years to come. I know there is some debate about whether HD is genetic or not, but it seems a lot of shepherds do exhibit hip problems. My GSD is not really of great lines to speak of (I got her from a pet store) so it's hard to say what we will face down the line. I have been giving her a supplement (Springtime Inc., Longevity) since she was four (now she's just shy of 5) and feed her a decent quality food (Nutro Natural Choice- Large Breed Adult). I've not yet had her hips xrayed, as my vet said he would need to put her under anesthesia to get a clear pic. We decided this wasn't worth while until at least five years of age.

Anyway- I got a little worried reading this thread and the implication that doing agility could wear out the dog quicker and speed joint/bone problems. I assume all is well in moderation, but I was ready to dive in head first. I suppose there's no reason to get crazy about the sport if it's going to be at the expense of my dog's health.

Thoughts? Can someone help me to understand the risks involved?


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## wildo

Forgot to mention- Pimg is 74.8lbs, tall, and lean. She's almost certainly of American lines as she's very square at her hips (no slope in her back) and is heavy (by normal German standards). She's not overweight in the slightest though- she's very trim and lean. I mention this because she has a lot of mass to move around for agility work...


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## MaggieRoseLee

wildo said:


> This thread kinda scares me. I never considered that agility could be harmful to the dog- or at the very least- it could speed issues that would otherwise not be seen for years to come.* I know there is some debate about whether HD is genetic or not, but it seems a lot of shepherds do exhibit hip problems. *My GSD is not really of great lines to speak of (I got her from a pet store) so it's hard to say what we will face down the line. I have been giving her a supplement (Springtime Inc., Longevity) since she was four (now she's just shy of 5) and feed her a decent quality food (Nutro Natural Choice- Large Breed Adult). I've not yet had her hips xrayed, as my vet said he would need to put her under anesthesia to get a clear pic. We decided this wasn't worth while until at least five years of age.
> 
> Anyway- I got a little worried reading this thread and the implication that doing agility could wear out the dog quicker and speed joint/bone problems. I assume all is well in moderation, but I was ready to dive in head first. I suppose there's no reason to get crazy about the sport if it's going to be at the expense of my dog's health.
> 
> Thoughts? Can someone help me to understand the risks involved?


Hip Dysplasia IS genetic, please be assured of that. Apparently we can affect our dogs GENETIC weakness by things we do the first year (under exercising? poor nutrition? OVER feeding?). I definitely don't think agility can make our dogs get hip dysplasia.

I also don't compare our GSD's to the 'draft horses' of the dog world which would really place alot of extra force on their bodies when performing agility. I'd be more likely to say that St Bernards/Mastiffs/Great Danes would hold the body type of the 'draft' . GSD's WERE meant to be 'working dogs' with the running and turning involved in herding and their other skills.

That said, if your breeder is truly breeding for GSD's that are tall and way over standard FOR OUR BREED, and way over the weight FOR OUR BREED then you actually DO have a dog that is out of what the breed was meant for and there may be more extreme forces going on their bodies. 

Most of us get our dogs hips done as part of their spay/neuter due to the anestheisia. Personally, if your dog is LEAN and fit....... and almost 5 years old with no signs of joint problems, I'd say you would be good to go to leap right into agility with the normal concerns of ANY dog sport you would participate in.


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## wildo

Thanks for this, MRL. I got home for lunch today and measured Pimg. She comes in at 26" high at the top of the shoulder blades, and 28" long from front of breastbone to rear of pelvis. According to the AKC, the ideal proportion is 8.5/10 (height/length), or .85. Pimg comes in at .92, so she's not of the "ideal" proportion- but she's not that far out. Then again, they do state that bitches should be 22-24", so in that respect- she's quite tall. But with all that- I've always heard that American GSDs were bigger than German GSDs- especially the females. I can't find any official website to back that claim up though.

But that's neither here nor there. I think given that she hasn't shown any visible signs of joint issues (and she's a jumper! she chases imaginary [and a few real] squirrels up trees all day long!) and given that she seems to enjoy agility- I think I will go forward with giving it a shot. We can always back out if signs start to rise up. And at that- she should probably be due for a hip xray/teeth cleaning this coming year anyway. I can get more solid evidence there from the hip xrays...

Thanks for the info!


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