# Puppy pneumonia



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Anyone have experience with puppy pneumonia? Would appreciate any advice or tips!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

What advice did your vet give you when he was diagnosed with pneumonia? What about all the advice you're getting on your other thread?


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

One of the posts on the other thread actually gave her advice on starting a new thread regarding puppy pneumonia. 


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

You can buy a cheap nebulizer and make your own saline solution or get something from the vet. I would ask the vet, these work great for this. Also if you can get the pup to lay down propped up, head up that helps


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

arycrest said:


> What advice did your vet give you when he was diagnosed with pneumonia? What about all the advice you're getting on your other thread?


I credit the advice on that thread with keeping this puppy going. I haven't had a puppy in many years, and to be honest, I've never had a sick canine at all. My only truly sick cat was a FIP kitty, and that was years ago, so I've kinda forgotten what all I did for him. I don't recall ever having to hand feed him, though. I believe I've posted pretty much everything the vet said in that thread, and I started this thread on advice from BowWowMeow. 




kr16 said:


> You can buy a cheap nebulizer and make your own saline solution or get something from the vet. I would ask the vet, these work great for this. Also if you can get the pup to lay down propped up, head up that helps


Do you mean a nebulizer like an asthmatic uses? If so, I have a couple. Storm is pretty good about finding a "pillow," so she is mostly sleeping with her head up. Today, she seems to be on the mend, she's eating again, wanting to play a little, staying awake more (we aren't allowing her to play). Would using a neb make her worse tho? Pneumonia comes from stuff in the lungs, would moisture make it worse? I don't *think* she needs a nebulizer, but I will bring it up to the vet and see what he says, but I'm still curious, never know when the knowledge might be handy in the future!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The really important things are getting fluids into her, getting really good food into her (did you make that chicken soup yet? ) and making sure she takes it easy so her body can heal. 

I know a couple of people on here have had dogs with pneumonia so that's why I suggested starting a thread. 

I did find this thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/229546-chronic-pheumonia-any-suggestions.html

If it were my pup I would also be boosting the immune system.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Found this site, I "get" the nebulizer treatment now. All I have for it currently are pre-diluted asthma meds, but I do have a vaporizer, so I'll use it.

Pneumonia Management


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I've dealt with it before with a puppy. What exactly are your questions?

And a nebulizer will help break up the fluid that's in his lungs so he can cough it out and get it out of him. You'll see all that green gunk that's in his lungs being coughed out - it's pretty nasty. It was a while ago when I had to do it, but I think we did something like one or two treatments every day for a good week or two after being diagnosed.

What part of the process are you in? When was he diagnosed and what did your vet say about treatment?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

BowWowMeow, what would you recommend to boost her immune system? Jean mentioned using Vetri-DMG&#153; Liquid for Dogs and Cats in her pneumonia pup, would that be along the lines of what you mean? Do I need to worry about any conflicts with the meds she's on?

(Sorry, I feel really stupid that I don't understand all this stuff :blush


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> I've dealt with it before with a puppy. What exactly are your questions?
> 
> And a nebulizer will help break up the fluid that's in his lungs so he can cough it out and get it out of him. You'll see all that green gunk that's in his lungs being coughed out - it's pretty nasty. It was a while ago when I had to do it, but I think we did something like one or two treatments every day for a good week or two after being diagnosed.
> 
> What part of the process are you in? When was he diagnosed and what did your vet say about treatment?


She's been fighting a URI since I got her on July 27th. Supposedly two puppies in her litter got sick on the 26th and were isolated from the rest of the litter. I took her to the vet on July 29th, where the URI was dx'd, started treating with Clavamox. Back to the vet on the 2nd because I didn't see improvement, and her stool was still straight liquid. Dx'd with the worst case of giardiasis the vet has ever seen and roundworm, put her on metronidazole, said we would address the roundworm when the giardia was better. The 4th she didn't want to eat or drink, I managed to get a half can of TotW into her. The 5th we went back to the vet and this time he heard rales? when he listened to her lungs, so we did xrays and she has apiration pneumonia, started Clindamycin with an injection at the vet, and 300cc of sub-q fluids. On the advice of the forum, I started syringe feeding her at 1230am this morning. At 130am, she started eating and drinking again. (I have a couple threads about our whole saga since we got this baby, but this is the gist.) She has continued to eat and drink today, and showed a little interest in playing. After she started trying to chew on my son's sidewalk chalk, I gave her a small bully stick, she chewed on it for close to an hour. This is a huge improvement, she has slept about 95% of the time since we got her. Also, she is deaf, which apparently can contribute to sleeping a bit more than other dogs, since sound won't disrupt her sleep.

So that's where we are. I'm not sure I have specific questions, just generally want to know how to help Storm. I'm going to go hunt down the vaporizer now, we have a tiny bathroom (like 5x4') that would work well to contain the steam.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow... that's a lot to go through for both of you. How old is she? How long has she been on the antibiotics for the pneumonia? 

Did your vet say anything about nebulizer treatments? They should have everything you need at the vet's office. I'm not sure what that machine pumps out, but I'd assume (could be wrong) that it's something prescription. The vet should allow you to come in and use the machine every day without charging for an expensive vet visit. It was something like $10 each session for me. I'd just go in and let him breath the stuff in for about 20 minutes and he coughed a bunch of gunk out. Did it for a couple weeks and it really helped clear out his lungs.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I really like Vetri-Science products so if Jean had good luck with it then I would go for that. I would also do vitamin C (without added calcium). 

Also, Nutro has had its share of problems. I would try some other brands to see if she will eat them. If not then just give her that. Better that she eats something.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> Wow... that's a lot to go through for both of you. How old is she? How long has she been on the antibiotics for the pneumonia?
> 
> Did your vet say anything about nebulizer treatments? They should have everything you need at the vet's office. I'm not sure what that machine pumps out, but I'd assume (could be wrong) that it's something prescription. The vet should allow you to come in and use the machine every day without charging for an expensive vet visit. It was something like $10 each session for me. I'd just go in and let him breath the stuff in for about 20 minutes and he coughed a bunch of gunk out. Did it for a couple weeks and it really helped clear out his lungs.


Doc didn't say anything about a nebulizer, but I'll call and ask about it. Vet is about a 35-40 minute drive, maybe if he recommends I could do it at home since I already have a nebulizer? (Not that I mind driving, but I have a daughter who I have to drive to and from work, as well, so that's a lot of road time)



BowWowMeow said:


> I really like Vetri-Science products so if Jean had good luck with it then I would go for that. I would also do vitamin C (without added calcium).
> 
> Also, Nutro has had its share of problems. I would try some other brands to see if she will eat them. If not then just give her that. Better that she eats something.


How much vitamin C would you recommend? She was 10.2lbs yesterday, I'll get out of the baby scale so I can keep an eye on her weight. (I have a "newborn" scale that I use for my cats when I'm dieting one of them, Storm should fit on it for a week or two LOL)

What other brands would you recommend? I totally didn't research dog food after I decided to go raw. I used Nutro Natural Choice Lamb and Rice for my other GSD, and I hate Science Diet and Iams with a passion (years old grudge, sigh). There's a feed store nearby that has the TotW and Blue Buffalo (they have other stuff, but it struck me as junk looking at the ingredients), and there's a PetCo or PetSmart nearby. Tempted to put the TotW in the bullet-type blender we have, but the hubby would totally freak LOL. If it was me, I would totally eat the TotW, it looks pretty yummy, while the Nutro looks like cheap cat food consistency. EVENTUALLY, we'll go back to raw for good. I'm pretty much humoring the vet right now, and promised I would stay away from raw until she's healthy, on the chance that he is right. (I don't think he is, but I also don't think it will hurt her to be on a quality dog food for a few weeks.)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Do you have a small, locally owned place nearby? One that would carry the higher quality foods? If so I would get that Tripett food and there's one that comes out of New Zealand that is really good--Ziwi Peak. Nature's Variety is also good. 

Otherwise you could get Merrick (dogs love that stuff and it's not too expensive). That should be very easy to find. 

As for C...I don't know. You have to start with a small amount and work up gradually. Rafi gets about 2700mg/day and he weighs 60 pounds. He's at a high dose because of his joint problems. My cats weigh 8 and 9 pounds and they get a scant 1/4 tsp of C per day (they actually get a scant 1/8tsp twice a day) which is probably 500mg total. They have a chronic URI. The C has helped them a lot. They are both healthy now for the first time since I adopted them.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Do you have a small, locally owned place nearby? One that would carry the higher quality foods? If so I would get that Tripett food and there's one that comes out of New Zealand that is really good--Ziwi Peak. Nature's Variety is also good.
> 
> Otherwise you could get Merrick (dogs love that stuff and it's not too expensive). That should be very easy to find.
> 
> As for C...I don't know. You have to start with a small amount and work up gradually. Rafi gets about 2700mg/day and he weighs 60 pounds. He's at a high dose because of his joint problems. My cats weigh 8 and 9 pounds and they get a scant 1/4 tsp of C per day (they actually get a scant 1/8tsp twice a day) which is probably 500mg total. They have a chronic URI. The C has helped them a lot. They are both healthy now for the first time since I adopted them.


I'll do some Google'ing about the C, and hunt down some powder. Will have to do some exploring for foods, we've only been here since June 22, and most of our free time is spent in Denver, cuz my sister-in-law is there and about to move to Oregon. (Have tried to get stationed near her for 21 years, we finally manage it, and she's moving, go figure!)

2 dumb questions, what about that Freshpet stuff that they sell at Walmart, is it any good?

The other dumb question, could I just cook for her???

Let's see, I have chicken (bone-in breasts, legs, boneless/skinless breasts, necks, turkey necks) coming out my ears in the freezer (a bunch I bought for her, plus twice I ran into half-price markdowns, so I REALLY stocked up!), some beef, ground turkey, and grocery stores nearby, of course.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

(I didn't make the chicken soup for her, hubby was cooking dinner when I woke up, and then I completely forgot in the excitement over her eating.)

It occurs to me...I still have a large pot of ground turkey/rice/pumpkin in the fridge, I should probably see if she'll eat that now that she's eating again?

Was cruising the recipes section, and found: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/recipes/250593-help-please-diarrhea-giardia.html#post3281097

Two people say their vets had them on the chicken/rice recipe for weeks/month. My vet didn't say how long to feed it, but if that's what she needs to clean up the giardia, I'll stick with it. One person mentions a multi vitamin and a GI distress supplement? Should I give her a multi? I'm going to get the stuff Jean mentioned, simply because boosting her immune system sounds fantastic to me, and the vitamin C. Would it be safe to give her the NaturVet Digestive Enzymes/prebiotic/probiotic mix now?

(Sheesh, this puppy makes me wonder how on earth I survived 5 kids!)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Skip the multivitamin. Most of those aren't worth squat anyway. And yes, cook for her. See if she'll eat the stuff you made. I assume you overcooked the rice? 

Remember to go very gradual with the C. Should be fine to give her the digestive stuff. 

Hope she has a good night!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Skip the multivitamin. Most of those aren't worth squat anyway. And yes, cook for her. See if she'll eat the stuff you made. I assume you overcooked the rice?
> 
> Remember to go very gradual with the C. Should be fine to give her the digestive stuff.
> 
> Hope she has a good night!


Doubled the water, doubled the time. I did use basmati rice though, I keep forgetting to get white rice at the store. Should I remake it with white rice?

Ordered the Vetri-DMG and Vitamin C powder, they'll be here Friday. (NO CALCIUM, just straight ascorbic acid)

She's in bed now (about to join her!) so we'll start the NaturVet stuff tomorrow.

Thanks very much for all the help!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Contrary said:


> (I didn't make the chicken soup for her, hubby was cooking dinner when I woke up, and then I completely forgot in the excitement over her eating.)
> 
> It occurs to me...I still have a large pot of ground turkey/rice/pumpkin in the fridge, I should probably see if she'll eat that now that she's eating again?


If I had run out of boiled chicken and I needed to feed Quax before the next batch was ready.....I would make scrambled eggs for him. Plain, no butter. He loves them and would always eat those even with water added for fluids. 

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

TxQuax said:


> If I had run out of boiled chicken and I needed to feed Quax before the next batch was ready.....I would make scrambled eggs for him. Plain, no butter. He loves them and would always eat those even with water added for fluids.


Awesome thank you!

I just left a message for the vet and asked:

1. How long on the boiled turkey/rice?
2. When can I give the Heartgard to get rid of the roundworm?
3. Can I use cooked chicken for training treats? (Vet tech said yes)
4. Can I do neb or vaporizer?
5. How long do I need to keep her calm?
6. When does he want to see her again?

He's off on Wednesdays, so they will get back to me tomorrow with the answers.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Keep her on the bland diet for at least a half week after her poops are solid. Then you can ease her back onto whatever you normally feed her. 

Also, did I say you should get buffered C? I hope so but I was really tired last night. 

Her little system must be reeling from all of the meds she's taking. If her poops are ok then you should definitely get her started on the probiotics (2 hours away from the antibiotics). 

The pneumonia can cause scaring on the lungs so she will likely tire easily even as she's feeling better. I know you can gradually increase her activity level but if you allow her to overdo it she could have a relapse. Hopefully Jean will appearing soon to share her experiences with her foster pup.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Keep her on the bland diet for at least a half week after her poops are solid. Then you can ease her back onto whatever you normally feed her.
> 
> Also, did I say you should get buffered C? I hope so but I was really tired last night.
> 
> ...


Oops, don't think I got buffered C. All the buffered I see has calcium? Her poop is half-solid, half liquid, if that makes sense. She has a fully formed pooped, but also liquid?

I read Jean's threads about Luka and Dylan, and even saw the pics of Rafi playing with Dylan! I think Jean is Superwoman after reading those!!!

What would non-buffered C do? (The stuff I ordered is not buffered.)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Non-buffered C would be hard on the tummy.  

Keep her on bland food until you see solid poops for a couple of days. Did you already start the digestive enzymes? Those should help. But she's also got to push all of those parasites out. 

You asked about basmati rice--I use brown rice and not white rice. While white rice is more binding, it has no nutritional value. I also use oatmeal because some dogs don't handle rice well. 

Glad you saw the thread about Dylan--I'm sure that has lots of good info. Rafi was very sweet with him. He was such a cutie! :wub: Jean takes amazing care of her fosters and personal dogs. They give her the tough cases! :wild:

You are doing a great job with Storm! How is she feeling today?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Non-buffered C would be hard on the tummy.
> 
> Keep her on bland food until you see solid poops for a couple of days. Did you already start the digestive enzymes? Those should help. But she's also got to push all of those parasites out.
> 
> ...


Drat, I'll get some buffered C. Have you found any without calcium? (Amazon is my go-to ordering place because I have Prime, I :wub: free 2 day shipping!)

Started the enzymes today, she's eating much better today, but giving me evil looks when I plop the turkey/rice/pumpkin in her bowl. Hubby said she is trying to tell me that's gross and she wants real food!

As for how she's feeling today...time for pic and video overload! (I know the harness isn't fitted right, she wasn't exactly cooperative when I was trying it on, so I let her go "play" for a bit, it's still too big, darn it. Really wanted pink, but she'll have to stick with her smaller black one for now)





















Puppy Pics Slideshow by DiaryofaDeafDog | Photobucket My son photobombed me in one of the pics, ignore the ice cream sandwich all over his face, please


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Storm and your son are both adorable. She looks very peppy for a sick pup! I want you to know that Rafi is definitely not deaf--when you whistled in the video he started looking all over the place. :laugh: 

Are you mixing canned food with the mixture you made? I wouldn't go back to raw until the diarrhea clears up.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

All I am feeding is the rice/pumpkin/ground turkey now, plus 1/4tsp of the non-dairy kefir per day. Oh, we added one serving of the NutriVet enzymes today (it calls for 1g per cup of food served, but I'm starting at 1g/day.) I plan to add the Vetri-DMG Friday, and the C when I get it. The vet tech I left the message with said I could use chicken (boiled) for training treats. I promised the vet I wouldn't use raw until he gives the all clear for her to go back on regular food (he'll never give the all-clear for raw lol) and I'll stick to that. (What he said may or may not be true, but it made sense to me, his concern was that with her digestive system already messed up from the giardia and antibiotics, he didn't want me adding more bacteria to it from the raw.)

Other than that, I have given her one 4" bully stick since Friday, and I only have two left. Going to order from Best Bully soon, kinda hanging out til the worst of the vet bills are over and my rent gets deposited. I want to do a huge order of sticks (because I am incredibly cheap, and I want the cheapest price per stick lol), so I think she'll be OK til I get them ordered (within a week, rent usually hits the bank by the 15th or my property manager gets a nasty email)

Should I mix canned with it? I finished the open can of Nutro before I switched back to the rice stuff, but I do have a half-empty can of TotW in the fridge still. Was going to give it to the neighbor and just keep Storm on the rice mix until vet gives the all-clear?

Tomorrow morning is her last dose of Clavamox, I'm really looking forward to that LOL. She may be sick, but she is one strong little girl. She sees me coming after her mouth with a pill and I swear she locks her jaws shut.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You might want to hold off on the Bully sticks. They give Rafi the runs! I think they're hard to digest. Can you get antlers locally? 

I think you could mix in a little canned. I agree about scrambled eggs. I often make those with oatmeal for sick dogs.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

PetCo had some antlers when we were there Sunday. I was kinda worried about them breaking her teeth, and wasn't sure where they were sourced from. No problem grabbing a couple if they are safe, though. Should I get a small one or a bigger one for her?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Small. The other thing would be marrow bones but scrape out the marrow. One of my dogs did break her tooth on a marrow bone but she was pretty old by then. Rafi does well with the elk antlers. I think the deer antlers are softer so maybe better for a pup?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How is the little patient today?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Not well at all :-( we're at the e-vet right now. Today she went totally backwards, and I can't afford the $1500/day for a week or more to be admitted to the internal med vet's hospital or whatever. She is on O2 right now, bloodwork and xrays soon. Crap.

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

They just came in with an estimate of $1800 just for tonight's care. I have no idea what to do right now.

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

The vet said it is quite possible the reason she is not responding to the Clavamox and Clindamycin is due to some congenital defect and the fact that she now has no immune system. She said even if I had them keep her overnight for the $1800, I might have to make a decision about euthanasia in the morning. She said it is almost certain without 7-10 days of IV antibiotics, she will not pull through this, and she can't guarantee that she will put through it even with them. Said the antibiotics they were going to nebulize her with don't work with normal nebulizers, so they didn't give me those to give at home. No one has normal nebulizer saline in stock anymore (at the pharmacies I called) and they advised her immune system is too weak for a homemade solution. She is home now with me, and if she makes it through the night, we will be at the vet in the morning, they think our vet has the capability to give oxygen


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

I'm so sorry, poor little Storm...you and your family have given and done so much for this baby girl. She is a fighter. You all have fought so hard. I continue to pray and hope for her and for you and your family. Whichever outcome or tough decisions that may need to be made....I believe you have done everything you can. Should y'all have to make the hardest decision of all, please, never question if you could have done more. I so hope she pulls through, but if she unfortunately does not...I'm so glad she has had this time with you and yours. She would not have been so loved, and as comfortable as you have made her anywhere else....she probably would have not made it this long. Hugs to you and gentle hugs & kisses for Storm. 

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so very very sorry for this little puppy, and all that you have gone thru with her

Do you know if you have a puppy lemon law in your state? You SHOULD be able to collect 'something' monetarily from the "breeder" (and I use that term loosely) since she has been sick from the moment you got her.

I know your doing all you can, and that's all one can do, hang in there, I hope you will see some improvement ..hugs to you all


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

last ditch attempts --- 

what did they determine was the cause of the pneumonia -- was it fungal, bacterial or viral.

can they give a sub cutaneous hydration injection with Vit C , B Vitamins

can you make a dense bone broth for her to encourage drinking 

immune assists --- check into chlorella -- look into colostrum (looking into sources of this for you)


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Storm is still hanging in there, about an hour and a half til the vet opens. I still think she's struggling a bit to breathe, I want to neb her with some Albuterol, but I'm scared to do it without vet advice. I have asthma, and the way she breathes reminds me of how I breathe when mine is starting to flare up (not a full-blown attack, but as it start). I start to do it, I think what can it hurt? Then I think, what if the vet can fix her??? I don't want to mess her up more.

The kids were all up waiting for me to get home with her, so they know now she's having a hard time and the meds aren't working, not that that will make it easier, but at least they are somewhat prepared.

Did coupage once since we got home, will do again in about 2 hours, e-vet said no more than 4x a day.

Carmen, how would I make a dense bone broth? Not sure about the pneumonia, vet said it was aspiration pneumonia in the right lobe from inhaling her nasal discharge most likely? I asked for a B12 injection the other day, don't believe it happened, it isn't on the bill. Will ask again today for the B and C. I'll look up the chlorrela now

Forgot this, Jakoda, the states involved are CO, NM, and TX. I looked around at different sites for puppy lemon laws and none had any listed for any of the states involved.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dense bone broth -- get a rotisserie chicken , strip meat , enjoy, make sandwhiches make chicken salad .

take all the skin and all the bones and the jelly in the tray - put into pot , cover with water , set to boil , let boil for 10 - 15 minutes just to get things going fast, then put on lid and simmer till the liquid is reduced . 
run through sieve . put liquid into jar and put into fridge 
when cooled you can offer to dog , or moisten food with it .
what is left in your jar will become wobbly like jello and you can take spoonfulls at a time and offer to pup , place in mouth , or re constitute.

oh and the bones in the sieve -- toss out , but save the white condoyles (knee caps) and the keel and give to dog , great source of chondroitin . pick out little bits of meat and offer .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

colostrum to provide for immune system Bovine Colostrum Powder for Dogs & Cats | Canine Feline Immunity


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

is my memory correct , in the other thread , did the breeder not offer another pup?

ask for a full refund to allow you to care for the dog 

ALSO just remembered this CO-Enzyme Q 10 , Ubiquinol (active form) 
found this product ? Trumpower Home Page

the vet can do the illness care , we can work on the wellness care

by the way everything mentioned so far will greatly improve your asthma -- -


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

I'll pick up a chicken today, hopefully they make some early.

I'll order that Colostrum, could I pick up some at the farm supply to use in the meantime? Doubtful it's organic, and probably isn't collected as soon as that one is, but I do have a farm supply a few blocks away. I know they have bovine and goat colostrum, I saw it when I was in there the other day.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Yes, another pup has been offered...HOWEVER, the other puppies are sick too, and even though I have asked in every email I've sent how they are doing, what the vet said about them, she has not answered that. Only said that she's sure I'm taking good care of Storm.

Supposedly we are to meet in less than 2 weeks to swap Storm for another puppy....once all the puppies are healthy...

I KNOW Storm is being seen by a vet a lot more than they are...and I have no idea if they have progressed into pneumonia or not.

Sending you a PM


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Contrary said:


> Yes, another pup has been offered...HOWEVER, the other puppies are sick too, and even though I have asked in every email I've sent how they are doing, what the vet said about them, she has not answered that. Only said that she's sure I'm taking good care of Storm.
> 
> Supposedly we are to meet in less than 2 weeks to swap Storm for another puppy....once all the puppies are healthy...
> 
> ...


What will they do with Storm? 

I don't think I could send back a puppy knowing that it will not get the proper treatment or will not get as much treatment as I have been providing it. I think you should walk away from this litter and breeder. Give Storm to a reputable rescue that will help find a "deaf" experienced home. I understand you will lose money but I would not go with a litter that is experiencing health issues and not being properly treated for them. I also do not like the lack of communication from the breeder. 

Walk away and make sure Storm is given a chance to have a great life!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Oh, I'm so sorry she's taken a turn for the worse! You have done so much for this little puppy. Sending good thoughts your way hoping she fights through this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes goat colostrum -- from your county farm co-op is good -- so is WHEY , so is goat protein -- at this point I would even see if they have a puppy milk replacer , dog needs energy to fight the fight


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

carmspack said:


> yes goat colostrum -- from your county farm co-op is good -- so is WHEY , so is goat protein -- at this point I would even see if they have a puppy milk replacer , dog needs energy to fight the fight



Got it. 15 minutes til the vet opens, I'm charging my cell to full now, so I can read this thread and get the things you mentioned while I'm out. There's a Whole Foods close to the vet, I'll get what I can there, and at the farm store, and if I need to, I'll find a small local health food store.

Thank you very very much for all the advice, I REALLY appreciate it.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Contrary said:


> There's a Whole Foods close to the vet.


My Whole Foods once told me they sometimes sell (or even give away) the rotisserie chicken bones from any chicken they used to make chicken salad or other entrees for the deli/prepared foods counter. Otherwise the bones will get thrown out. They don't have them every day, and only the area manager can decide whether to do that -- it doesn't hurt to ask!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Contrary said:


> Got it. 15 minutes til the vet opens, I'm charging my cell to full now, so I can read this thread and get the things you mentioned while I'm out. There's a Whole Foods close to the vet, I'll get what I can there, and at the farm store, and if I need to, I'll find a small local health food store.
> 
> Thank you very very much for all the advice, I REALLY appreciate it.


Good luck....hoping for the best!!

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Magwart's idea is brilliant !!!! 
I'm going to ask for them myself --


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Magwart said:


> My Whole Foods once told me they sometimes sell (or even give away) the rotisserie chicken bones from any chicken they used to make chicken salad or other entrees for the deli/prepared foods counter. Otherwise the bones will get thrown out. They don't have them every day, and only the area manager can decide whether to do that -- it doesn't hurt to ask!


Oooo, I will do that! We'll be leaving in about 30 minutes for the vet, and they have all the faxes from the e-vet last night already.

I really appreciate everyone's good wishes and thoughts for us, I sure thought we were over the hump on Wednesday, darn it.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Oh no--just seeing this! Sending many powerful healing thoughts out to Storm. Whole Foods will have the colostrum. 

The antibiotics were working but perhaps she has a different or stronger infection than they though. I think aspiration pneumonia can be difficult to treat. 

Did you look into Care Credit?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

If you are at Whole Foods get some Chlorella -


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

carmspack said:


> If you are at Whole Foods get some Chlorella -


I will, and the other stuff you mentioned, too (CO10 stuff, I know it's spelled wrong, but I'll get the right stuff at the store) 


BowWowMeow...any clue where in the store I would look for the colostrum? I might be able to get the good stuff there, as opposed to what the farm store will have. (It's a small store, there's a bigger one about 10 miles further north, and I have a heck of a time finding things in the small one.)

I opened a CC account last night, just in case I needed it today. We aren't poor, but even with CC, $15,000 to *possibly* get her well is a bit of a stretch


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

colostrum at the farm co op will be better priced .

at the whole foods it may be in a refrigerated section or on the counter in the health food , supplements area , same place for the Co Q 10. There are two forms of Co Q 10 , one is ubiquinone , the other ubiquinol . the latter is the active form , better choice .


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Thanks much! She's back with the tech getting blood drawn, the vet is on the phone with the specialist. We're moving on to baytril now...ugh...so did not want this drug...


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

OK, we're home. Did not stop anywhere, too hot to leave her in the car, and didn't think Whole Foods would appreciate me bringing her in, and..biggest reason, I want to get the albuterol started so she can breathe easier.

We're throwing everything at this, albuterol to help her breathe better, Baytril, Clindamycin, and saline in the nebulizer. Baytril and finishing the clindamycin oral. Got a shot of something (Cerenia?) to calm the tummy, help her appetite, and also a B12. Did not get C, vet couldn't find a reason for it, was curious why Carmen suggested it (see below, we saw a diff vet today, I <3 him!). As I'm typing this, I'm thinking for the immune system, right?

Her red blood cells are super low, white blood cells are super high (he said that's good, means her immune system IS trying to fight it). Will post all that later.

Gonna get these nebulizer treatments done, and then I'll have a kid watch her while I run to Whole Foods and get the stuff.

Much as I wanted her on the neb, they are quite the pain to administer. She may feel like crap, but there's PLENTY of fight in this little girl. 

Same vet office, but we saw a different vet today, I REALLY like him. He's young and seems pretty open to suggestions, isn't opposed to raw (does give his dogs some raw, but they aren't on full raw), and was amazed when I threw the albuterol at him and demanded he approve it. The specialist finally got back with him, and he was thrilled that we were doing nebs.

Anyway...I'm sure it's premature, but I'm feeling cautiously optimistic? I definitely feel like we are attacking this as hard as we can. Xrays today showed MUCH more in the lungs, sigh.

OK, gotta relieve my daughter, she's doing the neb for me so I could update here. More later, thank you all!!!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Oh my goodness...I just realized this is the little deaf pup. I was actually thinking about her recently.

I have nothing to suggest other than immense well wishes for this little girl, what a fighter. You are a gem to this pup.

My fingers and toes are crossed for this little girl. 

I will step out of the way to allow those with experience to continue their support and advice.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Way to go, Momma..!! I admire and respect all you are doing....please get well quickly baby girl, Storm!

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

If anyone ever needs to nebulize their pet, the advice here about doing it in a crate is invaluable. Storm is getting her meds while she sleeps, and I don't have to worry about stressing her more than she already is!

http://moonlightflower.org/USINGANEBULIZERONDOGS.pdf


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope it all works. Thank you for taking such good care of her. What do they recommend for fluids?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she's a little fighter this million dollar puppy

Hoping the neb helps..Masi was extremely ill a few months ago, not pneumonia, but whatever hit her gi tract traveled thru her bloodstream to her lungs, xrays looked like the lung pockets were "black"...anyhow, she was having alot of difficulty breathing, they were giving her albuterol, it DID help, plus a ton of antibiotics, that I can't recall right now.

Keeping fingers crossed for this little fighter and you are such an angel for hanging in there with her..


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Dr Kathy at Morris vet is amazing and is really helpful with Mega E dogs. She would know about the nebulizers that's where I got my info from.




Contrary said:


> If anyone ever needs to nebulize their pet, the advice here about doing it in a crate is invaluable. Storm is getting her meds while she sleeps, and I don't have to worry about stressing her more than she already is!
> 
> http://moonlightflower.org/USINGANEBULIZERONDOGS.pdf


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

I had to crash and take a nap, so I did not make it to get the Co-Q-10, I know I've seen it on Walmart's shelves, though, so I'm going to go there and get it (If they have the Ubiquinol) , a small can of milk replacer, and to see if they have the chlorella. My ever-patient husband brought home a rotisserie chicken for dinner, and the carcass and juices from the container are cooking now for her.

I will go tomorrow and get better stuff from Whole Foods.

She was 10.1lbs today, without leash and collar. She was 10.2 Monday WITH leash and collar. So, not really sure if she lost anything, but obviously she hasn't gained.

It was Cerenia they gave her, plus B12 and 200ml of sub-q fluids. Something worked, she has eaten a small amount, and hubby braved those vicious little teeth to poke some Nutrical in her mouth. She didn't care for the Cerenia shot, vet warned it would sting, but of course the poor baby can't hear him, so she was unprepared and looked like Cujo going after him. The vet tech yelled "no" and the vet and I just stood their laughing at her. It took her a minute to realize why :laugh:

Really like the vet, he's open to out of the box, and was impressed I came in loaded down with info. He wasn't familiar with nebs in dogs, but after I said I had read about them being used for aspiration pneumonia, he went and did some research, talked to our other vet, and said he agreed with me that it was indicated and we came up with a "game plan." The specialist agreed with what we came up with, but doubled the nebs to 2x a day. He also wanted to give a higher dose of Baytril, but my vet and I felt uncomfortable with that, and we're going to stick with this dose for right now.

He's confused about her red blood cells counts (anemia), I'll post all her values below in a little while. He didn't feel like not eating really explain it, but the specialist said that's probably the cause. He said the white blood cells indicated her body is trying to fight the infection and that her immune system is working.

The other pups in her litter have relapsed, as well. Not sure of their diagnosis, but none will be sold, if they survive (I assume they are in as bad a shape as Storm, but I don't know for sure.) She has friends in the area who will take them, and she offered me a pup from a litter born July 31. Anyway, most of you know my plans regarding Storm, they haven't changed, so just an update on the rest of the litter.

Going to Walmart now to see if they have the Ubiquinol, chlorella, and milk replacer till I can get colostrum tomorrow. The Vetr-DMG is here and I've given her .5 of that. Mercola's site says the dosage for his "pump" Ubiquinol is 10mg for 10lbs, so maybe that will convert. http://media.mercola.com/assets/PDF/product-labels/ubiquinol-pump-pets.pdf


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Do you have a syringe to assist feed, if necessary? What about fluids? Did they give you Sub-Qs or indicate how to keep her hydrated? 

Isn't Cerenia for severe nausea? Maybe I'm too tired but that's what my brain is saying...

Hope she has a better night tonight...


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Definitely have syringes, she's got a good bubble of sub-q right now and is starting to drink a little, plus hubby added a little Pedialyte/water to her food. Vet is open til noon tomorrow, he said bring her by if I think she needs more sub-q, and I have a bag of saline here now (but not the IV tubing/needles), so if she really needs it while they are closed, I can do it this way with a needle and syringe (I'll grab one in the morning when I get the colostrum): Giving Subcutaneous Fluids to a Dog&. My neighbor is a vet tech, so if I am desperate and hubby isn't around, she will help with sub-q. (I really should get over this aversion, eh?)

Surprisingly, she was fairly well hydrated every time the vets have seen her, though I really don't know how. I haven't given *that much* by syringe orally.

And yes, Cerenia is for nausea. The vet felt like some of the coughing actually IS dry heaving, and he thinks that may be contributing to the lack of appetite. He said Cerenia also helps increase appetite, though I've only found one website that says that. He got to see her cough/heave quite a bit today, and he tried to show me the difference, but I really didn't see it. He said sometimes (cough) it is her diaphragm pushing down and other times it is her abdomen coming up.

Walmart had the milk replacer, but not Ubiquinol, the only CoQ10 they had that specified anything other than the enzyme said ubiquinone not ubiquinol. They didn't have chlorella or C powder, either. I looked at the EsterC and the EmergenC, and wasn't too sure about all the ingredients, so I figured I better wait. Maybe Whole Foods will have the buffered powder. I do have the unbuffered I ordered, is there any way to combine it with something for her that would be gentle on her tummy? I got eggs and am going to see if she will eat a scrambled egg before I give her meds.

I don't know how, this puppy isn't cuddly, and has no thought of being a lap dog, but she seems to be forgiving of all the torture I put her through, and definitely seems to be *my* girl. When she feels up to it, she follows me everywhere (goodness, we barely fit in the bathroom together while she's 10 lbs, i can't even imagine at 50 or more!), and even sick, if she sees me come in, she will come curl at my feet. I really wanted her to bond most closely with the 3 yr old, and the kids in general, but I am so thankful that she doesn't seem to be holding a grudge against me. :wub:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NO EmegenC --- must read ingredients -- this is sweetened with xylitol which is deadly toxic to dogs.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Cerenia injectable definitely burns, poor baby. Pill form is available but if I recall correctly, not as effective as injectable. Quax had it and cried & cried....our 11 lb Papillon took it like a champ when he was battling a really bad inner ear infection. Never made a peep, he is a tough boy! 

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Normally you wouldn't give Ester C (on an ongoing basis) to a pup because of the calcium but in an emergency I don't think it matters. Remember that you need to start small and build up.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

I have got to program the xylitol in my brain, I keep forgetting about it. I did NOT buy any EsterC or EmergenC last night, though, I just saw the ingredients, and there were a lot of them, so I decided to wait.

We're on her last neb for mid-day right now, another 15 minutes and then I can do her coupage. After that, we're headed to Whole Foods and the farm store.

It may be wishful thinking, but I am pretty sure her cough changed after I did her nebs and coupage last night. It's always sounded dry, but it definitely sounded wet last night, so maybe the nebs/coupage are helping her get this mess out :fingerscrossed!:

She has eaten a full can of Nutro since about 6pm last night when hubby first gave her some. She won't touch anything else, though. I tried a scrambled egg, sardines in water, chicken, puppy milk replacer, and the rice/turkey/pumpkin. I *think* she had a little bit of the sardines...at a minimum, she played in them because it was all over the floor. (I used one of our cat bowls for them, has very shallow sides) So, we're going to go get more of the Nutro today, as well. I'd rather she eat something else, but I can settle for the Nutro as long as she is eating! I was able to syringe about 15ml of the chicken broth into her, but she wouldn't drink it by herself.

Anyway, still don't like her breathing, but she's hanging in there, and I very much hope I wasn't imagining the wet cough!


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> Do you have a syringe to assist feed, if necessary? What about fluids? Did they give you Sub-Qs or indicate how to keep her hydrated?
> 
> Isn't Cerenia for severe nausea? Maybe I'm too tired but that's what my brain is saying...
> 
> Hope she has a better night tonight...


Cerenia is awesome for lots of things not just nausea, I dose it out like candy to people who can afford it, since its not cheap. Really no side effects used at appropriate doses and length of days. One of the best drugs to come out in last 10 years. Yes it does burn and reaction to it varies but its still great. Sometimes I try to dilute it out in the syringe with saline or other fluids and it seems to help some.

Edit: I don't know where that thumbs down came from and I didn't mean it if I did it lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Contrary I cannot offer any help for your puppy's condition...so I'm just popping in to say I think you're wonderful for trying to help save this puppy.

Best wishes to you and little Storm both!!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

ugavet, my vet keeps it in the fridge. My neighbor is a vet tech, and she said her vet dilutes with saline, so I may mentioned it to my vet, should we need it again.

I am THRILLED to report as soon as we finished coupage (which she isn't a fan of!), she went to her food bowl and waited. My son fed her while I washed her water bowl and gave her fresh water, and ate quickly and STARTED DRINKING!!

Not ready to dance naked in the street yet, but baby steps, baby steps, maybe she is responding to this med combo!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

And thank you to all the well wishers and advice-givers! We're off to Whole Foods now


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am pulling so hard for your little Storm. Thanks again for taking such great care of her. I am so glad to hear that she is eating and drinking on her own. The other thing I thought of is ginger. That is so good for the lungs, digestion, etc. If you have some fresh you could just add a little to her chicken broth. Will she drink the chicken broth on her own?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

She wouldn't drink it last night, but I haven't tried today.

Quick question, is a lamb femur bone ok for her to chew on? Can't find ingredients, but is made in USA. Made by Country Butcher, for Big R Stores. At Petsmart now to get an antler, Whole Foods is next door.

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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

Contrary......you may find the ingredients to the Lamb Femur on this site...*Jones Natural Chews Company* ...they make Country Butcher.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Contrary said:


> She wouldn't drink it last night, but I haven't tried today.
> 
> Quick question, is a lamb femur bone ok for her to chew on? Can't find ingredients, but is made in USA. Made by Country Butcher, for Big R Stores. At Petsmart now to get an antler, Whole Foods is next door.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Like I said somewhere before with your pup anything its eats is a great sign. Keep up the great work.

The only concern with a marrow bone or any bone is the amount of saliva that builds up. As long as the esophagus is functioning properly and everything goes down to the stomach than it should be all good. Your dog has AP not sure if they know the cause yet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

why would all the pups have it ? (or do they)

keep up the good work - we're pulling for you


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

First big question, I happened to read the ingredients on the rotisserie chicken package hubby brought home, and it has dehydrated onion in it. Should I toss that broth and just make my own? I have tons of chicken and turkey necks, plus other chicken parts (legs, breasts) if I need different bones.

We're up to almost a full can of Nutro today, she still has a small bubble of the sub-q, and she is drinking again.

Any thoughts on chlorophyll? While I was getting the chlorella, I noticed this stuff next to it: ChlorOxygen® 1 oz. AF Says "ChlorOxygen® Chlorophyll Concentrate (Extracted from English Stinging Nettle) Builds red blood cells. Increases hemoglobin’s capacity to capture oxygen in the lungs and distribute it throughout the body. Helpful in high altitude situations. Supports pregnancy by maintaining healthy hemotocrit levels. Acts as an intestinal deodorizer and offers liver protection."

Her RBC count is very low, and we do live in a high altitude (somewhere between 5800 and 6500 ft). If it sounds good, any idea of a dose?

Got Whole Foods' brand buffered Vit C capsules, they didn't have any buffered powders, 500mg per capsule.

Chlorella: Herbs: Chlorella Micro-algae - Chlorella is a protein-containing super food.

Ubiquinol: Ubiquinol QH® Active CoQ10 100 mg | Product Details

What dosages should I use/start at? I'm also doing the standard dose (.5ml) of the Vetri-DMG.

All I know is the other puppies have relapsed, not sure if URI or pneumonia, or what. About all I know is supposedly two puppies were coughing on Friday, so they were isolated, and I got Storm on Saturday.

She hasn't touched the antlers (I got a deer antler and a split elk), but she has chewed some on the lamb femur. Thanks for the website, doesn't really say ingredients, said it was dipped in smoke flavoring. I just want something appropriate for her to chew on, and since bully sticks are known for the loose stool, we don't need to add them to equation. She's starting to go after the nebulizer "hose" that I have poked into the crate, so I wanted a distraction for during treatments.

She has pooped now, it isn't straight liquid, but it's loose (maybe pudding type?) I didn't get a good look at it because she went right beside the sandbox and hubby immediately dug a huge hole/perimeter and got rid of it, since the kids play there all the time.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I would bet the super care Storm is receiving from you does not compare to what the the pups are getting. It's really sad for this litter. What the heck happened? (not a question for you)

So cheering for your little girl!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no need to buy the chloroxygen --- 

the onion powder is so miniscule and will be so diluted -- my dogs , including pups get bone broth from rotisserie chicken -- you can omit the skin if that makes you feel better .

turkey necks are good


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I forgot to mention that the whole risk of Baytril thing in pups is exaggerated. It's a rare side effect. We use Baytril on parvovirus pups who don't respond to ampicillin and are going down hill. Never had a problem.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

With all of the antibiotics and other meds she's getting I would be shocked if her poop wasn't loose! 

Her hydration sounds great. I hope you all have a good night!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

For tonight, she got her meds, then I did the other stuff about 2 hours later.

.5ml Vetri-DMG
~1/3 capsule Buffered Vitamin C powder (full capsule is 500mg)
~50mg Ubiquinol, after further reading, I think I will use a full 100mg capsule tomorrow
1.23g chlorella
2ml olive oil (I read that the Ubiquinol should be given with a fat)

I did buy bovine colostrum (at the farm store) but completely forgot to give it to her today. I have to crunch the numbers to figure out how to mix it, because the directions are for the whole bag and it says not to store it. Guess I should have grabbed the pill form at Whole Foods 

I mixed all of the above together and syringed it to her. It's the only syringe she didn't fight today...not sure if she was tired, or liked the taste! Will mix with food once she is more predictable about eating. The green tongue afterwards was pretty funny 

Her cough is definitely wet/productive now. She HATES coupage and glares at me for quite a while after. Hubby is an angel, she started coughing while I was out at Whole Foods, so he did a session of it. I had him watch 



 before I left  She has more energy/spunk/attitude/something, she fights more during the oral meds, and has gone after the neb hose that I had poked through the door of the crate so much, I gave up and did some ******* engineering using a toilet paper roll and a heavy mug, and I sit it in front of the crate and then drape the towel to hold the meds in. No interest in the antlers yet, but she has done some chewing on the lamb femur. She's too busy now trying to attack the nebulizer and scratch her way out of the crate to chew on it during treatments, though! 

She ate a whole can of Nutro today, and about a third of a can of BB Hunter's Stew. She is drinking, as well. Offered some of the chicken stock slightly warm, she wasn't interested in it. I'm going to try adding some to her food tomorrow, hubby is very worried about her not getting the nutrients she needs to grow properly. (I am concerned about that, too, but I'm much more concerned with getting her through the pneumonia and then I'll work on nutrional deficiencies. I'm just thrilled she is eating again.)

More pics 

Using the nebulizer with a kiddie mask:



Hmmm, I might like this lamb femur!



The alien look:



Do all GSDs lay down to eat?!?! BB Hunter's Stew in the bowl, she ate a bit:


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Contrary said:


> Her cough is definitely wet/productive now.


Yay....positive signs. Go Storm, Go!!

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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounds like you are on the right path!!!! She is so stinken cute, and yes, I had a gsd who would lay down his whole life when he ate )

Kudo's to you for being an angel in this puppies life!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

She's adorable. :wub: I continue to send healing thoughts her way. Again, thanks for taking such great care of her. I hope she is having a good day today and eating and drinking and resting. The most important thing right now is that she eats. The canned food is balanced so that's fine in the short term.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

This thread makes me so sad, I hate seeing an innocent puppy fighting for it's life. Thank you so very much for doing above and beyond for Storm. You people are angels! I am sending good thoughts, good luck and good karma your family and Storm's way! I hope this sweet baby gets over this and has a long, loving, happy and healthy life!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How is Storm doing tonight?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Lots of coughing, so that's good. She's eating and drinking. Doesn't really seem to be much different other than that. Breathing may be better, but she isn't acting "puppy" yet. Can't remember if we see the vet tomorrow, we have to go in for med refill, but we definitely have an appt on Tuesday. (We have had that since before the relapse) I feel like I should see more improvement if she's responding to the meds? But I guess if she wasn't, she would be worse, right? Probably I am just expecting too much. The vet we saw Friday said there would be lots of xrays through this, so I'm guessing we will be able to see in an xray if she is responding well? I plan to take her with me when I go to get meds tomorrow, I originally had enough neb meds for 6 days, but the specialist called as I was checking out and wanted to double the nebs, so that made it 3 days worth.

Feel so bad for this baby, wish I had a magic wand to make all our sick babies better!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

I forgot, we did have a moment of puppy today. Right now, our 4 cats live in the basement (it's about 1000sq feet), and because she's been sick, she hasn't really been introduced to them. She met one a week or two ago, and that's when we found out she can bark LOL.

Anyway, tonight my oldest kiddo came over and is taking our Maine **** to live with him on a trial, so we had to bring Spider upstairs. We were explaining how to feed him, so my 14 yr old sat on the floor with Spider...Storm came over and laid literally nose to nose with the cat (no barking, and no hissing, which is amazing because Spider hisses at everything). Spider did seem a bit uncomfortable, so the 14 yo let him go until it was time to put him in the carrier. Well...a cat running by was just a bit much for Miss Storm to resist, so she chased him about 15 feet before someone grabbed her LOL. (We don't want her to learn to chase them because she won't be able to hear us say stop, and we do not want to stress her little body out right now!)


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Called the vet's office to see what time I should come in for the neb meds, and he was busy but called me back a short time later. He wants to see her and do an xray so we have a visual of whether we are making progress, yay. If he doesn't like them, we'll add gentamycin to the neb treatments. Consensus seems to be the liver concerns with it are greatly reduced if given by inhalation. Makes me feel a bit better that I don't have to rely just on my impressions to see how she is doing. 

Little stinker knows a syringe in my hand isn't a good thing and is starting to rapidly walk away if she sees me coming with one lol.

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad that she is holding steady. I hope the x-ray shows improvement. Is she eating more? How are her poops? I know that when people have pneumonia it takes a long time to recover so I would expect this would take a while too. It's good you're not seeing puppy because you really don't want her to overdo it. 

No kitty chasing, Storm!  I have a no kitty chasing policy in my house. All fosters and new adoptees stay leashed until they learn that one.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

She's down with the techs for xrays now, fingers and toes are crossed! Poops go from pudding to formed to pretty loose, but not straight liquid. SHE GAINED 7/10s OF A POUND!!!!!!! I wasn't expecting that much, but she may have to pee lol

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Sigh, well the pneumonia is smaller, seems to be responding (slowly) to the current meds. He sees gas in her abdomen, though, in last week and this week's xrays. Didn't really catch what he was saying, but he's sending the xrays to the specialist to get his thoughts. Said he doesn't want to just treat the pneumonia and ignore another problem. He said he and our other vet aren't sure what it is...but I kinda get the impression they do and it isn't good? He said it might be time to turn us over to the specialist for treatment, sigh.

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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Said the loops of intestines with gas remind him of an obstruction, but she has no other signs to indicate that

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope it's just gas from all of the meds and nothing else.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I hope they can figure out what's going on,,I hate 'mystery' illnesses, I just want to know and deal with it..

Sending good vibes she will get better soon and you get some answers


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Blah, we're home, vet is going to call me when he talks to the specialist. This sure is one expensive puppy!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I wonder how the other puppies in the litter are doing?


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Contrary said:


> Said the loops of intestines with gas remind him of an obstruction, but she has no other signs to indicate that
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just sent you pm....

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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I know this is going to sound CRAZY...but are the worms completely gone?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Specialist thinks it's a liver shunt, her liver is too small, and she needs a barium test because her intestines are turning inside out.....:surrender:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

did they say the word intususseption (?),,if so, that's serious((


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> did they say the word intususseption (?),,if so, that's serious((


Hubby isn't sure what words he used, but I'm positive that's what he was describing, I just was reading Intussusception - Lionscourt Leonbergers and the vet did say she would need to be put under for the barium and may need surgery.

Crap crap crap, any clue how much that surgery runs?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no idea, and honestly not sure 'what' they do, I do know a friend of mine had a dog with this, they had to cut out the dead "intestine" and sew it back together..something along those lines..

Hopefully they've caught it soon and can fix it, I'm honestly not sure whether that would have anything to do with a liver shunt..

This poor puppy she has really had a rough start( Will be praying for her..


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

I don't get it.

Intussusception in dogs - Pet Forums Community

"Symptoms:

Intussusception in dogs has several symptoms that you can watch for and if any of them are in conjunction with a parasite infection or after a surgery, they are real warning signs. The first symptom that will occur will be vomiting, which is never a good sign, but is also not that abnormal. However, what is not normal is blood in the vomit. Diarrhea almost always comes directly after the vomiting starts and it will also show signs of blood. 

But the two most telling symptoms will be a sudden weight loss that is almost always accompanied by abdominal pain in your dog. The other signs may develop and than suddenly stop, which is characteristic of intussusception, but these signs will not stop. In fact, in most cases your dog may be on the verge of shock. If they suddenly collapse, you only have hours before you will lose your dog as it is now life threatening as the blood supply has stopped. "

She has NEVER thrown up while we have had her (since July 27). Her weight has been 9.6lbs, 10.2lbs, 10.2lbs, 10.1lbs, and now 10.8lbs today. All the weights were taken with her collar and leash on EXCEPT the 10.1lbs.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

If it is the case, chronic diarrhea can cause intussusception, so I'd not be surprised. 

I am very sorry for all Storm and your family are enduring, I had not posted before, but I've been following this thread from the beginning and thinking on her.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The intestines turning inside out would be torsion. That is fatal if not caught immediately so it couldn't be that. I thought of intusessecption but didn't think her symptoms fit. Jean knows all about that though. 

A barium study would usually be done for Mega-E...not sure what else it's used for?

Can you call or email the vet and get the exact info from her or him?

Where is s/he getting the liver shunt theory from? What did her bloodwork look like?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> A barium study would usually be done for Mega-E...not sure what else it's used for?


When Woolf had his blockage, the vet did the barium study on him. Xrays were done the first time, thought they saw something, but shadowy enough to not be positive, then went on to the barium, confirmed it with the barium. 

Contrary, I've been watching this thread. I'm really crossing my fingers for this little pup.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

My heart breaks for all y'all are going through.....if she requires surgery, did vet mention whether they think she is even strong enough with the pneumonia, etc? Poor little Storm, continued prayers for you and yours. 

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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Twyla said:


> When Woolf had his blockage, the vet did the barium study on him. Xrays were done the first time, thought they saw something, but shadowy enough to not be positive, then went on to the barium, confirmed it with the barium.
> 
> Contrary, I've been watching this thread. I'm really crossing my fingers for this little pup.


Barium is a last resort for Mega E it shows up with a normal xray. They do not want barium getting in the lungs and causing AP. 

The barium when my boy had it shows up in the intestines eventually it took like 15 minutes. It also will show up in the Esophagus and stomach.

Hope it all works out good luck


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Sorry, took a nap since I suspect tomorrow's going to be a long day. Had to get up for her meds.

Here's her blood results from the 9th: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B32C52Q0EUDeLW0zZXVRdlBkdW8/edit?usp=sharing

BUN being low is related to a liver shunt according to Portosystemic Shunts FAQ, hers is barely in the normal range. I don't see the other values in Storm's bloodwork to check them though. Guessing they will get those tomorrow, one site says they are checked two hours after a meal, and that's when i am supposed to take her in.

The vet showed me his areas of concern on the xrays. There were lots of gas pockets in her intestines that got larger than they were on Friday, he said they are opaque, and he wondered if maybe something??? related to her meds would cause them to be opaque? (Don't quote me on that, I probably have it tangled up.)

There was a small white section in an intestine that he pointed out and also pointed out a small white section near it that was outside the intestine.

Irked I was outside, vet had said he was going to call my cell, so I had it with me, but he called the house phone. Hubby was cooking dinner and didn't know where I was, and he knows what's going on, and how to give the meds, but he doesn't know the name of the meds or the dosages or whatnot to communicate well about them. He was pretty frustrated that they asked what meds she's on...and caller ID said it was our regular vet, so they should have known? Anyway, he asked the vet to call back in 5 minutes because he wasn't up-to-date on everything, but I guess they couldn't, not sure. I tried to call back immediately, but there was no answer. (They called after their business hours) So all my info is secondhand, and hubby was obviously confused and frustrated, so I'm sure there is missing info that didn't make it to me. (I think his brain got lost when they said her liver was too small and her intestines were turning inside out, poor guy.) He did say the vet said maybe it's just a pebble she's eaten (which is a possibility, there's tons in the backyard, and I'm forever taking them away), but still that doesn't make sense. She isn't vomiting, and while her stool isn't what I'd like to see, she IS pooping.

I don't even know if I'm supposed to take her to my vet or to the specialist at this point. I'm going to call as soon as my vet opens and see if I can talk to him.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

They can have a partial blockage too. Anyway, I really hope you get better news today. We are all pulling for little STorm!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I hope to hear better news this afternoon as well, pulling for that cute little girl !


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Really not sure how I would be getting through this without all of you guys/gals support, thank you so much!

I'm chewing fingernails and toenails right now, waiting to hear something, though I don't expect to hear from them until the afternoon.

So, for now, this is what is happening, I did talk to the vet this morning.

I took her in so they could do a blood draw (liver panel) 2 hours after she ate. Then they will do the barium thing and xrays to check for intussusception. And then they will call me with results and I should be able to pick her up, depending of course, on what is found.

Vet is trying to treat her himself, with the specialist consulting, to save me money. Just to walk in the door of the specialist is $200, not including exam or anything, because we are considered an emergency, and can't wait the 2+ weeks for a regular appointment. (I'm not bashing them, it is what it is, but I don't have infinite money, unfortunately.)

That may change depending on the results, of course, and I have no idea if they can do a payment plan or what. I can handle maybe another $2000 before I'm tapped out, Care Credit and all 

They suspect SLIDING intussusception, if I understand correctly, that means sometimes she has a blockage, sometimes she doesn't. With all the gas in her intestines, it would be hard to visualize her liver (via ultrasound) because it appears small on the xrays, to check for the liver shunt, so we're starting with the liver panel to see what that says.

They are not putting her under anesthesia today (and won't, unless it's an emergency, due to the pneumonia), not sure how hubby got that, could have been the vet talking about what the surgery would be if she does have an intussusception.

Anyway, that's all I know for now, I REALLY appreciate all the moral support and advice from you all!


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

I haven't posted but my daughter and I have been following sweet Storm's story. We are pulling and praying for her! Bless you and your family for all you are doing for her. <3


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Hoping for good news. Poor little pup has gone through so much.  Thanks again for the wonderful care you are giving her. :hug:


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

No call yet


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

waiting is the worst


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Vet is waiting for the specialist to call. I'm going to hit traffic, so I'm heading out now to pick up my baby and will wait there til he hears from the specialist.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

fingers crossed! Drive safely!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Contrary said:


> Vet is waiting for the specialist to call. I'm going to hit traffic, so I'm heading out now to pick up my baby and will wait there til he hears from the specialist.


All fingers, toes, paws and hooves are crossed here! Good luck!

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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

if it is aspiration pneumonia you need to thicken the water as well. a member on another forum i am on her senior dog has AP, and so far all the changes she did are working 

if the pup doesnt like the taste of corn starch you can also try arrowroot, potato, or tapioca starches as well. 



Dysphagia Food & Food Thickening Products Help with Swallowing

Drink Thickeners


http://dft.ba/-thicken1 - this link has some good information on the different thicknesses of liquids and their usefulness, it's all based on humans but it might be useful.

Another option might be to make her water completely solid using unflavored gelatin with or without a meat broth.
Here's a recipe I found, apparently some people with megaesophagus dogs use it:

1 cup cold low sodium chicken or beef broth
4 packages of Knox unflavored gelatin
3 cups of boiling liquid (water or a mixture of low sodium broth and water)

Pour a cup of cold broth into a 9 x 11 or 9 x 13 baking pan.
Sprinkle 4 packages of gelatin over the top and stir
Add 3 cups of boiling liquid and stir until the gelatin is dissolved
Refrigerate until solid - approximately 3 hours
Cut the firm gelatin into blocks and store in the refrigerator


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Assuming mega-e would have showed in barium study, right? Vets have not mentioned that at all. Is assumed the pneumonia came from aspirating all the snot from the URI.

Intestines seem to be A-OK. Liver panel result be back tomorrow. Pneumonia looks worse today, grrrr, so we are changing neb meds a bit, adding a baking soda/water neb instead of saline neb. Looking for some number to be under 100 tomorrow, toes will be crossed all night!

We're headed home now.

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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

This would be for a dog that has Mega E and cant handle water. AP is a huge problem with Mega E. The Esophagus stores food and water since it does not function properly. A person or a dog that has a normal functioning esophagus wouldn't need to worry about thickeners. The food or water would fly right through and down to the stomach.

They make a product called thick it for this.

Here is a gov study on thickened water intake with AP

Avoidance of aspiration pneumonia - Stroke - NCBI Bookshelf




mebully21 said:


> if it is aspiration pneumonia you need to thicken the water as well. a member on another forum i am on her senior dog has AP, and so far all the changes she did are working
> 
> if the pup doesnt like the taste of corn starch you can also try arrowroot, potato, or tapioca starches as well.
> 
> ...


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Mega E would have your dog regurgitating quite frequently. You do not barium to see Mega. Only inexperienced vets would give barium to check for Mega E. Mega E dogs do get very gassy.

Here is a great website on it. 

Megaesophagus




Contrary said:


> Assuming mega-e would have showed in barium study, right? Vets have not mentioned that at all. Is assumed the pneumonia came from aspirating all the snot from the URI.
> 
> Intestines seem to be A-OK. Liver panel result be back tomorrow. Pneumonia looks worse today, grrrr, so we are changing neb meds a bit, adding a baking soda/water neb instead of saline neb. Looking for some number to be under 100 tomorrow, toes will be crossed all night!
> 
> ...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I do not think storm is a mega e puppy, from all indications ..

sounds good, Hugs to storm she's made it thru another hurdle!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I don't think STorm has Mega-E. Glad her intestines checked out ok but sorry the pneumonia is worse. So frustrated, you're taking such good care of her!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

More of an update, and I'm going to recap her meds for anyone who may need this thread someday.

(A side note, I do not believe Storm has mega-e, and it has NOT come up in any discussions with the vet. I believe it would have come up if it was suspected or thought to be the cause of the pneumonia. This started as a URI with prolific snot, the vets believe that she aspirated the snot. The pneumonia is in her right lung, I forget which lobe. She has two regular vets in our practice and an internal medicine vet consulting, the specialist is reviewing all xrays, test results, and "approving" all treatments/making suggested changes.)

Today's barium test showed no signs of intussusception. The barium did move a bit slowly through the intestines, consensus among the three vets is that the gas is probably from the giardia and the antibiotics. They think the barium slowed down because there wasn't stool to help it move faster. (Vet explained it, I didn't really grasp it.)

I did not look at any xrays today, and about the only thing I really recognize on them are bones anyway. I'm not exactly sure whether the vet said they cannot see her liver at all, or that they only see a small part and should see a larger part. Her creatinine is very low, her BUN is just into the normal range, and her RBCs are very low. I guess those things, combined with a small/unseen liver, can be indicative of a liver shunt, and the first step in diagnosing that is the liver panel. Those results should be back tomorrow. 

Thee specialist thinks the pneumonia looks worse in the xrays (from the barium test) today than it did yesterday, so advised changing meds a bit.

Yesterday, we were doing 3 nebulizer treatments back to back, first was albuterol, second was clindamycin/baytril, third was saline. These were done twice a day.

Now we are doing treatments every 6 hours, so, for example:

midnight: albuterol and then gentamycin
6am: baking soda/water
noon: albuterol and then gentamycin
6pm: baking soda/water

We also added metronidazole (in liquid this time) and Panacur, as they all feel that the giardia has got to be brought under control, and she also takes Baytril orally once a day, and Clindamycin orally twice a day.

The specialist has been doing some research (Storm has the distinction of being the most troublesome case right now for all of them, we met their other troublesome case, giardia that won't clear up, at one of our appointments lol) and wanted to try the baking soda/water nebulizer treatment, it is supposed to alter the pH of something inside the lungs, to make it easier to get the gunk out.

Tonight when I paid, the receptionist said with as much as we're there and as much as Storm is costing, they'll be able to add a new wing to the clinic soon...they plan to name it after Storm  I told them be sure to put a bed in there for me!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks for the update,,yep, I think most of us at one time or another have paid for our vet's kids college tuition..

Hang in there storm hope you have a good day!


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

I didn't think it was Mega E either. The barium is not used to see the AP so that would have no effect on the xrays. On bad AP it takes 4-6 weeks on meds for this to clear up 100%.

Your amazing for what you are doing.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Much as I hate "early" phone calls, i was quite happy with that one! STORM'S LIVER IS WORKING PERFECTLY!

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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

:happyboogie: That's great news


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Good news!! We are so pulling and cheering for this little girl!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Whew! What GREAT news! Now to get her over that pneumonia!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Yay...so happy to hear about the good news call!!

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh good heavens that is great news -- 
pneumonia once battled , is temporary , an undersized liver , liver shunt would have been life long.
so get over the crisis period and then rebuild the immune system - 

I just came back in doors after an early morning start - the entire time I was thinking about Storm -- and was going to say if the pup had a liver problem - then it would have been worthwhile to ask for a pedigree 

in any case this is aspiration pneumonia . not clear whether the whole litter has it .
How old is the mother . Did the placenta break prematurely and the pups breath in fluid . Did the breeder intervene and rupture placenta . 

I sure would be curious about factors going back to care of dam , her age , how many litters she had previously, the experience just prior to and after birth.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

In other good news, she's coughing a lot more, it's wetter, so maybe the baking soda/water is bringing up more stuff. (Whatever she brings up, she must swallow, because the only thing that has ever come out of her mouth has been pills and stinky breath! :laugh

She, for the first time, ate her food mixed with the dense bone broth, ubiquinol, chlorella, digestive enzymes, vitamin C, and the dairy-free kefir, so that's a couple less times I have to stick a syringe in her mouth today, because....

She is now TROTTING away from me if she thinks I have "meds"  Her tail is starting to curl up when she does that (it's mostly been hanging "lifelessly" except when she wags it, that may be normal), silly puppy.

*Anyone know about how many calories an 11lb GSD puppy who is INACTIVE should be getting?* I tried to Google it, and I get anywhere from 220 to 1300


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

She's getting her spunk back 

Delgado was eating approx 778 calories at that age (2 cups Fromm LBP) not including treats from training but he was pretty active running most of the day. I always go by the particular dog and if I see them getting chunky I cut back slightly or too thin I add a little each meal


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

It does appear that something went terribly wrong for the litter to be so sick and this poor pup deaf as well


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

I have this site. This is where the coconut milk comes into play. Its a good calorie intake and easy on the stomach. Its not an animal product. Its good fat like avocados and nuts. Not sure the last two I would give to a dog but the coconut is a life saver in Mega E dogs that get AP and cannot hold down food.

German Shepherd Dog Food Calculator for Calorie Analysis


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

carmspack said:


> oh good heavens that is great news --
> pneumonia once battled , is temporary , an undersized liver , liver shunt would have been life long.
> so get over the crisis period and then rebuild the immune system -
> 
> ...


Her dam's mother was born January 31, 2005, but I don't have the dam's DoB. Would newborn puppies last 8.5 to 9.5 weeks with AP? Guess I could go ahead and register Storm, would the AKC pedigree show DoB for her grandparents and beyond?

The other stuff, we will never know the answers to, unfortunately.

I did find in my reading last night that the Yorkie forums think very highly of the vet that wrote this article, Portosystemic Shunts FAQ, and she is by far the most recommended for shunt surgeries. By the time I finally got to bed, I'd already decided Storm would go to UT for the surgery if necessary (pricewise, people repeatedly say they can travel to UT, including airfare or gas, hotels, food, etc, and still pay a thousand or more less than their local surgeon quoted, experience wise, they seem to consider her the best shunt surgeon, followed by someone at Cornell), and if the price hasn't changed too much since 2011, I could have enough to pay for it by the time the pneumonia was gone. Anyway, just putting this here for anyone who needs direction in the future, not very many threads come up when you search "liver shunt" on here.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

She's getting roughly 430 calories a day at a minimum (that's how many are in a can of Nutro). SOMEONE gave her a cooked lean hamburger yesterday, he won't do it again, but she ate half with about a third can of Nutro as soon as we got home from the vet, and then the other half maybe an hour later. She is gaining, though, so I'm relieved about that.

She has no interest in the coconut milk, I opened a can of the lowfat (I think it's 4g fat for one cup) and offered some in a bowl a couple of days ago, she took two laps and that was it. I froze the rest in ice cube trays, and she won't even sniff them.

No interest in TotW or BB canned foods. I will try to get a couple cans of the Tripette to try. Thank you for the heads up about 4-6 weeks, I didn't realize it would take that long, so knowing that helps to adjust my expectations. That will make her 16-18 weeks old, we're losing that early socialization window


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Low fat would defeat the purpose. but if she wont drink it than it wont work. I use a blender and blend it in. If she likes fish lets say, you can hide it in that. If she likes the Nutro you could mix it in that and double the calories



Contrary said:


> She's getting roughly 430 calories a day at a minimum (that's how many are in a can of Nutro). SOMEONE gave her a cooked lean hamburger yesterday, he won't do it again, but she ate half with about a third can of Nutro as soon as we got home from the vet, and then the other half maybe an hour later. She is gaining, though, so I'm relieved about that.
> 
> She has no interest in the coconut milk, I opened a can of the lowfat (I think it's 4g fat for one cup) and offered some in a bowl a couple of days ago, she took two laps and that was it. I froze the rest in ice cube trays, and she won't even sniff them.
> 
> No interest in TotW or BB canned foods. I will try to get a couple cans of the Tripette to try. Thank you for the heads up about 4-6 weeks, I didn't realize it would take that long, so knowing that helps to adjust my expectations. That will make her 16-18 weeks old, we're losing that early socialization window


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't worry about the calories -- 

look at the ingredients in that hamburger (if it is a pre-made )

I wouldn't just offer fat , needs the protein --- get some 
GO-PRO which I use in my enzyme/probiotic blend 
St. Francis Herb Farm GO PRO MATRIX - 1000G - PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS - National Nutrition

this will help her repair , provide energy, easy to digest protein and minerals


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you should be able to get this at any health food store


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

You are going to buy green tripe?

I fed that to my boy when he was a puppy. I really liked it and will feed it to future puppies to give them an extra boost.

Again, I want to say how wonderful you are! You are a great person and Storm is lucky to have you in her corner! :wub:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

A full-spectrum protein source








99% absorbability and assimilation







Boost integrity!








Repairs damaged cells 








Stimulates the immune system








Regulates pH levels


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

As long as it was just a meat patty, the hamburger was probably fine. You could try a turkey burger too  Scrambled eggs--did you try that?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

I have about 200lbs of raw for her, but the vet asked me to take her off of it until we get through the ????? Giardia URI pneumonia? I will read my other thread later and see what we were avoiding it for. His reasoning was he didn't want added bacterial load, which is why she's eating canned right now, since she won't eat turkey/rice/pumpkin. I should try it again maybe now that she's eating again? I did talk to him about using the science diet a/d stuff yesterday and he said she is ok on the nutro canned.

Since she had the cerenia, she's had a nibble of bb hunter stew, but wouldn't eat anymore after that, won't eat scrambled eggs, coconut milk, etc. Nutro seems to be the only thing she will eat consistently. Wonder if its the smell

More later, have to go get human food, my kids think I've forgotten they exist and are tired of chicken lol

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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

pre made patties are super loaded with sodium -- 
some may have soy (gmo) as a meat extender

heated fat is difficult to digest (pancreas)


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Should she refrain from giving raw right now?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

she needs to take a conservative approach until the crisis is over , stabilized , and then do what is best for the dog THEN


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Isn't canned food heated (and processed) fat? I was thinking ground meat cooked, not pre-made stuff (which I actually know nothing about).


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

The hamburger was just 93/7 ground beef made into patties. It may have had a tiny amount of seasoned salt on it, but probably not, as hubby hates salt on anything. No other ingredients in it 

Absolutely not feeding raw right now. I do have 10 or so pounds of raw green tripe (ground), but I haven't fed anything raw since the vet asked me to wait til she was healthy.

I had planned to transition to raw from the breeder's kibble, so I bought a bunch before I ever brought her home. Did zero research on kibble/canned food, so I was a bit unprepared for her not being able to have the raw. We ended up on the Nutro when I was trying to entice her to eat ANYTHING, I still have cans of TotW and BB, but she won't eat them.

When I said try "it" again, I meant the turkey, rice, pumpkin, since that was what the vet wanted her eating for the giardia. I know vets aren't necessarily the best source of nutrition info, but his reasoning for no raw right now made sense to me, and I don't think she'll be overly harmed by commercial dog food until she's in good health.

Her stools right now are partly formed (soft I'm sure, I don't particularly have the desire to investigate them THAT closely) and partly pudding consistency.

I guess my biggest concern right now is to try to figure out what the right amount of nutrition is for her. She is gaining on the can of Nutro/day, but she's still very thin to me. I can feel all of her spine/ribs, and I thought I was only supposed to really be able to feel 2 of the ribs? I don't want to over-feed though, without exercise especially.

Carmen, the Go-Pro Matrix appears to only be available in Canada, so I will have to order it. I went on Where to Buy: St. Francis Herb Farm Inc. and don't see any locations in the US at all


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I wonder about contacting Monica Segal? I guess the only thing is that you don't know if she would eat the food you made. 

Individualized Nutrition For Your Dogs

You could get on their yahoo group: K9Kitchen : dog diets raw cooked allergies disease


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Have you tried or can you give her some egg with her food? It's good for her coat and it gives her some extra calories? Have you tried canned green tripe since she eats wet food?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Good news ! St Francis Herb Farm only uses Mt Capra goat products - so it is a labeling thing .

check it out St. Francis Herb Farm MINERAL MATRIX GOAT WHEY - 1.44KG - pH BALANCE - National Nutrition . Mineral Matrix uses only Mount Capra goat whey to ensure that you are getting the highest quality goat whey available. 

Mt. Capra’s Goat Milk Products. Protein, Whey, Yogurt, Colostrum you can buy directly from Mt Capra 

Goat Milk Protein - Tropical Traditions


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Joined the Yahoo group, will post about Storm when I get up for the late night neb/meds.

Scrambled her an egg, cooked it in one tsp of the Neuman coconut oil. It smells heavenly, I'd eat it! Storm, though...no, she licked the small amount of Nutro left in her bowl up, sniffed the egg, then went back to licking the Nutro bowl, even though it was empty. Wonder what kind of doggie crack they put in that stuff???

Carm, anything else that might be good for her? I can get free shipping on the Caprotein at iherb if I spend $7 more (or I can spend $4 on shipping lol)

On July 29, I put some of my homemade liver treats in my purse to take to the vet with us. My purse is usually under my desk, and Storm found them that night. She has NEVER forgotten they were in there, and if I forget and put my purse down there, she plunders through it. She was nice enough to drag the grocery list out of it just a minute ago.

We have a little routine, when her nebulizer treatments are done, I let her out of the crate, and she follows me into the kitchen, where I clean up the neb stuff and she usually drinks a little or eats some. Then we go right outside for potty. I let her out of the crate earlier, and while I was disconnecting the neb pot, she disappeared. I found her because my son was laughing hysterically. Apparently, he was dragging a blanket while running through the house, and like the cat, that was just a bit much for Storm to resist, so she was chasing him and the blanket  Hubby scooped her up and did 30 seconds of tug with her, and then we finished out usual eat/drink/pee routine.

Nice to see "puppy" but!!! Guess I'll put the leash on her when she comes out of the crate from now on!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to she's feeling better! I know with Dylan Jean took it really slow for a long time, even when he felt like doing a lot. Eventually I'm sure slow, leashed walks would be ok. 

Are you feeding her as much Nutro as she wants? What if you mix the egg into the Nutro?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

She gets as much as she wants of the Nutro. We dole it out by the spoonful, because it's hard to judge how much she will eat at any given time. When she finishes what's in the bowl, we drop in another spoonful. I guess you could say she's free-fed right now, but I don't leave it sitting out. If she goes to her bowl, we put some out, though.

Had an idea...this morning, I mixed some of the bone broth with the Nutro and then mixed all the supplements into it, and she ate that. I have the Nutro and egg mixed in a bowl in the fridge for tomorrow morning, I'll add the bone broth and heat it up a little in the morning, and then add the supplements...bet she won't even notice the egg then.

Probably I'm "over-babying" her, some of the pics of Dylan looked pretty active, she mostly sleeps and when she does try to play at all, we redirect to her bone or pick her up and pet her. I'm really not sure what her limit is, when the vet called this morning, I asked about her being around my sister in law's dog, because we have to go to Denver Friday. Her meds are complicated enough now, I prefer to at least provide direction when they are given, so I don't want to leave her home with my 19 yr old....she's a bit flighty! Anyway, vet said it would be OK, since Dakota isn't immune suppressed, but absolutely no playing with Dakota and he would prefer Storm be in the crate most of the time.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Oh, and while we are positive she is deaf, we keep playing mind games with ourselves and we think we see her responding to sounds, so we've decided once she is completely healthy, we are going to have the BAER testing done to see if she is completely deaf or can hear some sounds.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Is she learning hand signals?

The pictures you saw of Dylan are from when he was way beyond the acute stage. When Rafi and I saw him he was almost better. Jean actually ended up with him because his first foster let him overdo it and he relapsed and got very sick again.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Other than house breaking, waiting by the food bowl, and being the last to enter/leave the house, we haven't taught her anything. I was actually going to ask about whether I could start training her tomorrow. I REALLY want to get "look at me" started, and then "come"...think it's ok to start working on those? (What do you think about liver treats...chicken liver/eggs/oatmeal baked...will those hurt her tummy/intestines? Oh, we talked about cooked chicken, I'll get some out to thaw to cook tomorrow!)

The pics of Dylan make more sense now!

Forgot to tell you guys, the vet told the specialist what the e-vet told me about it being $1500/night for 7-10 nights. The specialist said no way it would be that much per night and it wouldn't be for that long, so if she doesn't show so decent improvement next time he does xrays, I may talk with the vet about how much it WOULD be, and if IV antibiotics would be a good idea. We'll see how that plays out.

I know this is kr16's forte after I've been doing some reading. I know the pneumonia wouldn't be covered, but if I bought PetPlan NOW, would it cover stuff in the future? Read a few threads about how irresponsible it is to buy a puppy if you can't afford vet bills...we can afford normal vet bills, and I had a decent chunk (I thought! holy crap e-vet is expensive, I'd need a 2nd mortgage for their prices) set aside for emergencies and for HD if we needed it, but this mess has showed me a couple grand in the bank isn't near enough, so...I'm curious about insurance now!


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Oh this puppy is sooooooo playing me! Just finished her soda/water neb, and she wanted food, so I offered the egg/Nutro I had in the bowl for the morning...yep, she's eating it, and I watched her eat a chunk of egg. (Thanks to the pup, I was up and just sitting here when my Best Buy.com account was hacked, poor hackers, nothing out of me tonight!)


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so glad to hear she is feeling better!!! 

I would start some small training with her if you think she's feeling up to it..SIT, would be a good one,,take something yummy, maybe the liver? stick it in front of her nose and slowly tip it up and back, so it kinda 'makes' her go into a sit..

I'd look up some hand signals as well, 'down', I stick a treat in front of their nose, slowly move it 'down', and 'cup it covered in my hand on the floor, she may paw at it, etc, pop open your hand when she plops on the floor..

(Sorry if you already know these little tricks!)..

For focus, hold, the food in front of your mouth, /nose, when she makes eye contact, treat her..

I think I"ve mentioned my 13 yr old aussie is deaf..well I'm seeing lately she also responds to "some" sounds,,she can be in a different room and if one of the others barks, she'll start barking as well..

I dropped a pan on the floor the other day, and I know she heard that...I'm thinking maybe mine has more of a "selective" hearing issue, like hearing when she wants LOL..

You've been such a great mom to storm, she willbe just fine once you get thru this hurdle..)


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

I see no reason why it wouldn't. They would have to give you in writing exclusions that are above and beyond whats written in the policy. Some of the things your going through right now would not have been covered anyhow.




> I know this is kr16's forte after I've been doing some reading. I know the pneumonia wouldn't be covered, but if I bought PetPlan NOW, would it cover stuff in the future? Read a few threads about how irresponsible it is to buy a puppy if you can't afford vet bills...we can afford normal vet bills, and I had a decent chunk (I thought! holy crap e-vet is expensive, I'd need a 2nd mortgage for their prices) set aside for emergencies and for HD if we needed it, but this mess has showed me a couple grand in the bank isn't near enough, so...I'm curious about insurance now


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Is "focus" like look at me? Never heard it used as a command before this forum.

Afraid to get my hopes up yet, but I think she's doing better. She definitely getting more active, and eating/drinking a lot more. (After all my worry about not eating enough, we may have to actually limit her soon! She ate nearly two whole cans today...almost 900 calories, plus some cooked chicken breast)

Had to go get more clindamycin today, but I didn't take her with me because I was running my daughter around for job hunting, so I didn't get a new weight. Vet will be calling tomorrow to check on her, I may ask if we can bring her in Saturday for an xray to see what the pneumonia is doing...we definitely have to go in Saturday for more meds, the gentamycin and more clindamycin, they were almost out today, so we only got enough to get through tomorrow.

Anyway, some pics from today, she got to meet one of our bunnies:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

She looks like she is feeling better! Yay Storm!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

she DOES look like she's feeling better. what a cutie!! LOVE the pics of her grabbing the bag, and with the bunny 

and yes 'focus' is looking at you..like I said earlier, take a treat/food and put in front of your face, when she looks at you, treat, maybe clap hands like YEAH A PARTY!! GOOD GIRL!!! 

I would start trying to associate hand signals for easy basic behaviors...

Still pulling for this sweetie even tho your probably going bankrupt!!! Know that feeling !!


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Awwww, way to go Momma....she looks like she is definitely feeling better. Great pics! 

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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Aw, she is SO adorable. :wub: Hope she continues to feel better!!!!!!!!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Everytime I check this thread my fingers are crossed..

Yay Storm! Keep getting better!

And...great job with this puppy Contrary. How lucky this puppy is to have you and your family.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Updates on dear little Storm?


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

She still seems to be doing well, she lasts about 5 minutes in our "training" sessions, she's picking up on "look at me" pretty quick (I point to my eye with my index finger). Started on sit, but she's always sitting, so I have to watch some YouTube on that lol.

We had to go to Denver yesterday to help my in-laws, she was FANTASTIC in the car. She rode in my daughter's lap for most of the trip, spent some time on the floorboard, too. I'm going to have to get her a car harness soon, she slides around in the crate too much, and I worry I'm going to hurt her if I slam on brakes, so that's why she didn't ride in the crate.

Had to pick up some more meds today, but the vet only has one tech on Saturdays, so I didn't take her for an xray or weight. We have an appointment Monday morning and will get an xray to see where we are with this pneumonia. She still coughs quite a bit, but not as much as she was, and she definitely is awake more and wanting to play, particularly with the toddler.

After finding 5 ticks on her in the past few days, we decided we better put her on Frontline, so the vet prescribed the spray instead of the drops. We can't afford a tick-borne disease on top of the pneumonia right now


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to hear that she's slowly but steadily improving. Inch by inch...

Scary about the ticks and the Frontline.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also glad to hear )))


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, Miss Storm's xrays look MUCH better, still pneumonia there for sure, but lots more air space! She's 11.6lbs today, so she's gained 2lbs since we brought her home.

Vet says we can transition to kibble now...any suggestions? She's still being particular about only eating Nutro from the can, so I don't anticipate an easy transition lol.

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## LoriH (Apr 16, 2013)

So glad she's feeling better. I've been following and you certainly have your hands full. You're doing an amazing job getting her healthy.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I need a Stormie update!!! Hope she is doing better


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Sorry I have been MIA, sis-in-law has been staying with us for a while, and I drive her to Denver and back every day for work, so I don't have much puter time. They fly to Oregon early tomorrow morning, so life will get back to normal for a couple of weeks, and then my mom and her best friend are staying with us for two weeks 

Storm was doing fantastic at the beginning of last week, the diffuse pneumonia was gone, just the small section left. Vet put her on Rimadyl for 10 days and within an hour of the first dose, she was a normal puppy, running playing, etc. I call it puppy crack.

We finished the Baytril about a week ago, and since then she has relapsed, sigh. In addition, she's now having standing seizures/foaming at the mouth, and near constant tremors in the right side.

We've no idea what the seizures/tremors are from, vet is waiting for a call back from the specialist to see if he has any thoughts.

Her "clump" of pneumonia is much smaller *YAY* but the diffuse stuff is back, though not near as much as she had before. Back on Baytril for at least the next two weeks, vet and I feel we stopped it too soon. Also put her back on Rimadyl (not thrilled, but we're at last ditch efforts now, we simply can't afford much more), but I can give that kinda as needed, so we'll see if there's any improvement after a dose tomorrow morning. (She's back to being lethargic the majority of the day, coughing near constantly, and of course the tremors, and then seizures now and then.)

She's 15.6lbs now, hasn't gained anything in the last week, but didn't lose thank goodness. Her poops are normal, we start on the Panacur again tonight (I was supposed to start it a couple days ago, but wanted to check with the vet first.) for the second series to make sure the giardia is taken care of. She's not much into her kibble again, but she's eating canned food, at least. 15.6lbs puts her at a 6lb gain in the 5.5 weeks we've had her, I know it should be more, but she looks pretty good considering.

Anyway, just an update, wish I had better news, but we're hanging in there for now.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

oh gosh, I'm so sorry, if it's not one thing it's another( You have done so much for this little fighter, I hope she continues to hang in there, and things get better..

Thanks for the update, hang in there, hugs to you all


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I would really take a strong look at that Baytril: Enrofloxacin as a possible cause for that seizure activities and I may have missed why the NSAID? Rimadyl Because I would also be worried that the liver was having trouble with the seizures. I would want a liver blood panel done ASAP if you can do it. 

I am very pro-antibiotic, but would be concerned about that and the NSAID of course. I'd want to see about using something else. Like a doxy/bactrim combo or whatever - but I would also check for how common their neuro side effects are. There are some epi-dog websites that might be helpful with that.

Please rest her as much as she needs, and do not let her choose her own exercise level as she begins to feel better again - a stopwatch/timer is what you need to use, and go under what you think she should do. Way under.


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, I took Storm in to be euthanized this morning, we had a terrible night, BUT...vet isn't ready to say we are at that point, so he kept her to put her on an IV and hit her with anything he and the specialist can come up with. No guarantees we won't have to euthanize this evening, but we're trying last ditch now.

The Rimadyl was for inflammation, and it very obviously helped with that. Starting it was literally our turning point, and last Monday, I think, we all breathed a big sigh of relief, because we were through the worst and on the mend...we thought.

About resting her, seriously, she never got/gets more than 2 minutes of exercise, maybe twice a day. She's tethered at all times when she isn't in the crate, except when she goes to potty, and then she drags the leash so we can grab it if she starts running or playing.

I got video of the seizures last night...showed the vet this morning, he says they are NOT seizures, he thinks it's her trying to get the fluid out of her lungs. She will be observed non-stop today while on the IV to see if she does it there.

She's had two liver panels, and both were fine, and her bloodwork that was drawn yesterday was perfect when they got the results this morning. She very obviously has LOTS more fluid in her lungs today, and had a high fever. They're giving some sort of antibiotics via IV and then will do xrays to see the difference from yesterday.

Sigh, we could really use prayers and good thoughts, after last night, I'm not sure how much more Storm can take :-(


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

This poor baby, my heart just aches for her and you.

She probably has no idea what feeling good feels like I think of her often and am pulling for this little girl. You have really put all you have into her. She's very lucky to have you.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No matter what, what a lucky little puppy to have experienced so much care, concern and love.

I'm pulling for you and little Storm, I hope she pulls through and can continue to be in your caring home and arms.






Contrary said:


> <snipped>
> 
> Sigh, we could really use prayers and good thoughts, after last night, I'm not sure how much more Storm can take :-(


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## Oliver'smom (Aug 15, 2013)

*sending positive thoughts your way*

What an incredible thread and story. No matter which way this goes I think you, your family, and your vet can rest assured you have exhausted all options to help Storm get better. 

It is so hard to be the parent of a sick dog since checking them into a dog hospital with 24/7 professional care is usually not an option (limited by either cost or availability). 

I'm hoping Storm gets better with the IVs, but I know that sometimes release is a the only thing we have left to give our dogs.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

You and your little girl are in my thoughts. Hope the little angel can pull through, gosh I know all too well how much this sucks... And how unfair it is  


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

We're pretty sure she has brain damage now. When we got to the vet this morning, her temp was almost 107. Vet gave Rimadyl and got it down to 105, and when I left the office an hour ago (I went to see her after I dropped my daughter at work), he and another vet were trying to figure out if there is anything else they can give her to bring it down. I don't know what all they've given her today, but the things I thought were seizures, he says is a type of coughing, and they have slowed down.

The biggest thing, to me, is she is tries to get away from me, she turns her head to avoid touch or tries to get away. Never, ever, have I poked a finger into her kennel and not gotten at least a sniff if she was awake, and now, she tries to get away from me. She's been a Velcro puppy from the get go, now if she is on the ground, if she sees you coming, she tries to get away. Her personality changed in a very short time last night (we literally saw it happen), she seems to have lost bladder and bowel control. She's never pooped in the house, and she pooped during the event that changed her personality, and then again in her crate during the night 

I'm picking her up in an hour, we're going to bring her home for the night and see if there's any improvement, but it's looking like we will put her to sleep tomorrow.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Bless her heart. She's a pretty little girl. I hope this baby can feel the boards energy pulling for.

I'm so sorry you are going through this...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

This is absolutely heartbreaking.  I really thought and hoped that as she got older and continued to grow she would beat all of this and become the healthy puppy she deserves to be. 

I am just so sad for you, your family and Storm. 

I just can't tell you how amazing you and your family are, you have all fought so hard to get this girl healthy, you guys are angels! 

I really hope there is a miracle tonight and that tomorrow morning Storm puts up a fight and beats her illness! 

My fingers are still crossed for you all!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

after all you and she has gone thru I am so very very sorry, and I just don't know what to say, except you have all gone many extra miles for her, I hope there is a miracle tonite, but if not, rest assured, you have done more than most people would and she's had the best of care.

I will be saying a prayer for you all tonite,,hugs to everyone..


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Oh, this is just heartbreaking. I am so, so, so for you and your family and poor little Storm. Sending all good thoughts your way.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

My heart aches for you and your family. This little one has been such a fighter. You have been amazing in your compassion and dedication to her. **hugs**


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## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Storm crossed the Bridge this morning at 822am. I thank you all for your advice, help, thoughts, and prayers. It's a sad day for us, but she's not sick anymore.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry. Hang in there... She was a beautiful puppy, what a tragedy...


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## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

Sweet Storm. You will be missed. Thank you so much for fighting so hard for her. You and your family were such a blessing to her. <3


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I am so sorry. 

Please take comfort that many dogs live their lives without any real care or love and this little one had so much care and love in her short time here because of you and your family.

I hope that karma will (when you, your family and your hearts are ready) reward you with the most wonderful happy healthy dog of your dreams.

Take care of you now....too.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so very very sorry She was a brave girl and your family , my gosh what can I say, you all fought so hard for her...If I ever come back as a dog, I want owners like your family..

Take care of yourself and hugs to you all..


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm so very sorry for you and your family. I have been silently following your thread and routing for Storm. You did so much for this little puppy, so much more than most any of us would have done.
I know that Storm is now at peace and I hope that you and your family will heal soon and that one day you may have a happy, healthy puppy of your dreams.
Big hugs to you!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Oh no  I'm literally tearing up at work, I'm so sorry, I was truly hoping for a miracle. RIP Storm, at least she's free of pain and running free

:hugs: to you and your family


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

This beautiful brave little girl left our world being loved and cared for.

My condolences to you and your family. Take care.


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## LoriH (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss. You did so much for this little one. She was lucky to have you care for her.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I am SO sorry. Pneumonia can take MONTHS AND MONTHS to treat. I've experience one other case of puppy pneumonia, an aussie mix that was recently adopted from a shelter. Hospitalized for a week, extremely febrile, in oxygen. Owners opted euthanasia. It's so hard both financially, and to watch. And who knows what kind of lasting effects it will have on the poor puppy


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am so very sorry for your loss. Sending you and your family many good thoughts. Thanks for taking such good care of little Storm.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Contrary, I wanted to check in on you 

This is so odd...but I had a dream about your pup Storm the other night. She could hear & was in good health. She was just running by the lake we frequent often. It was the strangest dream but I believe her puppy spirit is at peace.


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