# Can you help me understand?



## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

In my quest to know more about the dog we adopted I was trying to see photos of his parents and learn a bit about them. I can find some links to them but I have NO idea what I am looking at (and certainly not seeing any photos). There are tons of numbers that I assume are some sort of registry numbers (?) and what I think are different titles. Is there a crash corse on how to read this information? Is there some place you use these numbers so you can read about the parents?


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I am looking up:
father: Leo Von Erlenbusch 
mother: Hope Von Staalhamer


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

I just went to the Pedigree Database

Here is Leo Von Erlenbusch

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/291288.html

You can enter Hope Von Staalhamer in the same place to see what comes up. 

Is it Vom or Von?


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks for the lnk- that is the first photo I have seen (looks nothing like our boy). The comments section was a bit worrisome- described our boy to a T- so he MUST take after his daddy.

The paperwork I have looks like von. 

What do the letters below the photo mean? What do the letters mean in general? The pedigree I was able to find (for what I assume is a sister as it has the same mother and father listed) has lots of letter codes below the name (some starting with a D some with an S) are these some sort of registry code? CAn any of the information give me health information?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is actually van Staalhamer. The breeder is in the Netherlands. I have no information on Hope.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

It certainly could be an A for van! It is hard to see as I only got copies when we adopted him (and not terribley clear ones). I am assuming he looks like his mother since he is does NOT look like is father much (I don't just mean coat I mean body shape)...but the description in the comments section on that link above (about his father) could describe our guy. 

I found a list of parents and their parents and so forth for his mother and father. They have things like SCHH3 (which I assume is a schutzhund thing?) and "A" Fast Normal (which means what?) or FH IP3 (what is this?) and in some cases black and tan (WGR) (why do some say their color and some not? and I assume WGR is west germany, but why note location for only some of the dogs?). I am guessing the number sequences that start DL or SZ are like AKC numbers? Or can they give me helath info?

And really- what does this say about the dog living with me? Anything that would be good to know as his family?


AAACCCKKK! Help!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

SchH3- Schutzhund 3 title (Crok and Mink are pretty well known dogs in West German Workingline pedigrees)

A Fast Normal- German Hip Certification

FH- German Tracking title

IPO3- Basically the same as a SchH3 but under international rules.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Oh Thanks! So as I look at his family and I see things that have tables that say "work Tests" above it these are related to the Schutzhund titles? and if they say "shows" above the table?

Is there a website that can tell me all the different abbreviation meanings? (Now I am wondering about SGR VA1 or SG-VSP or kkl2)

Should I also be concerned that this Crok character was his grandfather (his father's father) and his great grandfather (His mother's grandfather)? 


Plugging the names in from his family tree has my head spinning- he has been more than any of our other shepherds- which has been exhausting...and now seeing his family tree I realize my suspicions are probably correct: this is one heck of a lot of beast and we need to be working him more....it just makes me feel even MORE overwhelmed! I thought I would look at his family tree and get insight into his health but now I feel like the energy sucker I live with will ALWAYS be this way- it's bred into him!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Work Tests are the results from a trial (I'm assuming from the BSP- German Nationals): A=tracking, B=Obedience, and C=Protection. 
Some good websites to explain more about the work titles and abbreviations...

http://www.workingdogs.com/working_titles.htm

http://www.starkepfoten.com/starke-pfoten-schutzhund/titles.htm

http://spear-barkennels.com/Pedigree_Abbreviations.php

Check out the pedigrees on my dogs in my signature...They are linebred on Crok. He's a good hip producer and known for good aggression for working. Right now I have my 2 and their Dad in my house and they are all pretty easy going with no temperament issues. There are some concerns about handler aggression from Crok, but I have not encountered it with my 2. I will say that you can get some pretty strong willed dogs, and I would work to establish good pack leadership and positive obedience. In the end, of course, like anything else it comes down to the dog you have, not the papers. 

Some more info on Mink and Crok-
http://leerburg.com/mink.htm
http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=29697&new_lan_en


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Thank you for the links to all the letter meanings. It was exactly what I was looking for (and becoming overwhelmed trying to find by google).

Our Beast (we call him that as a loving nickname but it really sums up his behavior- so beastie...too much beast) is very strong willed, very intense.... As long as he lives I can NEVER have another dog (our two old ladies are in their twilight and don't suck as much energy out of me)- he just needs all I can invest in him. I have no idea what to do with him though! 
We are an average pet home (not a working dog home). We have done agility, herding and flyball with our dogs because they were fun and healthy activites. The dogs enjoy it but would not lose their marbles if we missed a day. Beast needs something new EVERY day- he DOES lose his marbles if I am down and out for even a few hours! He has some real anxiety issues that I think relate to his need to do some intense work. Watching him stalk things is wild- the intensity that is in him every moment of every day is right at the surface to be seen when he is stalking. Reading this family tree makes me think it is just that he was BRED for this intensity. I just need to find a way to channel it.

Thanks for all your help with reading his family tree- it gave me a different information than I thought I was looking for, but useful information. Just reaffirms that I need to be more proactive about finding some activity that will appeal to his nature.....


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

That explains it. I have found your stories of the Beast most amusing and entertaining, and I am glad that he found a home with you, since he does seem to be pretty special, and you are smart enough to appreciate it :-D
High drive working lines like the Beast are a load of fun. I love these kind of dogs because they are always "in your face." They are full of life and sometimes seem little removed from the wild w/c to a nature lover is a treat. What you are seeing is not anxiety, its just a difficulty to settle down because the Beast needs to be "on." On the job. Even when they're playing or just lying around they're on the job.
Yes, they can be exhausting. You might need to consider putting him in an outdoor kennel or dog run part of the time to keep your sanity. See if he can get 20 to 40 feet of running space.
Tie a rope through an an old tire, then hang the rope between 2 trees or posts. That will give the Beast a job to do w/c might tire him out a bit (pun intended).
Go to http://www.germanshepherddog.com/ for SchH clubs near your area. If you don't want to do all 3 phases of schuzthund training, see if you can just do tracking. Tracking is very tiring for dogs, mainly due to the levels of mental effort required. Its also a bit tiring for humans because it involves putting tiny bits of food down every step for several yards. See if you can convince your kids that it is a fun thing to do 
AKC tracking can also be a good activity for the Beast. AKC clubs are more common than SchH clubs. Just make sure the AKC folks in your area understand that you have a real dog. They may not be familiar with it.
You might also want to check out SAR. Another potential tracking type activity for the Beast if you don't mind running around in the wilderness and mud at 4 am in the morning. Your DH might find this a good way to wake up.
If all else fails, you mentioned in several posts ago that police in your area liked the beast but did not want him due to "cosmetic reasons". That sounds a bit odd since police generally value the dog's working ability not its appearance. Perhaps if you contact other police departments they might not mind the cosmetic issues as much. Many of the well known SchH trainers also do a lot of police dog training. There are several national level competitors in NJ that you can contact for leads. They might be willing to look for a police dept. to place the Beast with if that's the best thing for him.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

addendum: At the age of 2 years the Beast is still a puppy but you might find as he gets older and matures (this will be soon) that he becomes very dominant and hard of hearing. He might have a very high aggression level w/c you may not have seen in your previous GSDs. That's why it is important for you now to be in contact with training clubs like schutzhund clubs and trainers who are more familiar with this type of dogs. Btw, if at some point, someone tells you that you have to choke your dog to the point it loses its ability to breath to establish your dominance, don't. This basically tells you that the dog will be better off with another home.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

He will be three soon (a few months)....and when he originally came to us I was thrilled at the prospect of police placement for him.... it was the insurance issue that made them balk. At that time they told me I had a ferrari and should prepare for a new ride- I had NO idea what they meant. They had offered to train him with us and again I was THRILLED. He tore a ligmanet immediately after this and it took quite a while to recover (keeping him calm was very hard- that's when we started the shell game). the people changed and with them our offer disappeared.

For the past year plus I have tried to contact the schutzhund guy our training facility suggested (I live in the middle of nothing so that there was even ONE guy was awesome to me). I can never get a return call from him and never more than the same genreal email response (will never set a time to meet, etc). 
Today I emailed another place I just found on a web search. I asked their training philosophy, their goals and their biggest successes/failures. I hoped it would give me an idea of methods they use. I realized though that I am framiliar with basic training- lots of positive reinforcement and the like in our house...I don't know if this is what to expect or look for in a schutzhund trainer.

He is very very smart (he teaches himself all SORTS of things- such as the need to grip a door handle AND turn AND pull to open a door- I never had to lock doors until he moved in)....and when taught something he gets it fast. Whether or not he wants to do it can be questionable but he knows what you want. It is why we have just kept at the basic stuff every single day- I don't ever want him to get the idea those things aren't expected (it is also why the kids, ages 6 and just 5 are expected to work him too)- or that hesitation is acceptable.
I certainly want to get a handle on him....there are certain behaviors I do NOT like: he pesters the old ladies....he does not like to be hugged, leaned on, physically contained or "lorded" over (for lack of a better word) though that is getting better...he annoys the cat....he seems to like fewer and fewer other dogs...and when he kisses he nibbles... well really this only happens to my husband and occasionally the kids....he does not often lick me. I never want any of that to go ANY further and have been working hard to reduce it. I feel like the final key to all we are trying to do for him is a job type activity- I suspect it will help with all my issues just listed!

If I can ever figure out HOW to post video here I will post one of his anxiety moments (these happen when anyone leaves the house- even to just take out the garbage or if you go into the room where the cat likes to sleep or if he has not had enough atttention). He can jump to within inches of the ceiling in the playroom (this is a sunken room so the ceiling is higher than the others)...he is amazing that way.


We do appreciate him for who he is- we just want to be the home he needs. I posted earlier today over on the schutzhund board trying to see if I might get some pointers. I will now research the tracking you suggested....I think the training place we use has a connection to SAR so I will ask them. These are just not things I had ever thought of (since we never had dogs suited to that). 

Thanks for your suggestions...life with our Beastie Boy (his name is Hunter) is never dull, that's for sure! 

(well I tried to post a photo of him but failed- oh well)
(oo and we just got a bubble machine to help wear him out- he jumps to pop them- I hope it helps)


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

OK, he's actually older than I thought. So never mind my earlier comments about dominance and aggression. At this age, he already has his adult temperament. So it seems that he's actually not overly dominant and does not have misplaced aggression. The fact that he does well with your little kids and has not eaten the cat shows a pretty stable and well socialized personality, he just has very high levels of drive and difficulty settling down. He might pester the old ladies but that's 'boyz will be boyz". He's just what a correct male GSD should be LOL
Is he a good retriever? Playing retrieve games w/2 toys will be good exercise (keep him lean so he doesn't get injured again).
If you have a pond or a pool, getting him to retrieve floating toys will also be good exercise.
You can also play search games with him and the kids. Just tell the kids its a game of Hide n Seek, and the Beast can look for them. If the DH is playing with you, he can take the kids to places in the forest, and you can ask the Beast to track them.


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## dcw (Nov 22, 2005)

I know Leo inside and out. I owned, titled, and lived with him for more than two years, before I sold him. They don't come any harder than Leo. He wasn't the biggest dog out there, but he was extremely athletic and one of the hardest biting dogs I've ever seen or heard of. For his size, it was almost unnatural, that he could bite that hard. There are stories about him most people wouldn't believe, and I won't elaborate here. If your dog is not showing aggresion towards other animals or people by now, he probably won't, which is a very good thing. Leo had "extreme' aggression. Schutzhund is a great dog sport, and I am always in favor of anyone getting involved. However, you need to realize, that sometimes bite training dogs can "wake them up." For some dogs, it isn't a game, but it's for real. Leo was this way. That is why he never became a good sport dog; too much over the top aggression. Your dog can be a very strong and driven boy, but hopefully has a better balance of prey vs. aggression. Get with somebody knowledgeable, and one that uses good motivational type training. Crok lines often love to fight. Old school domination type training brings out the fight drive, which is what they love doing. There are better ways, IMO. Good luck with your dog. I hope I didn't panic you, because it sounds like your boy is more stable and balanced than his father was. I hope this gives you a little insight. D


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks for the insight- it was actually a comment about his father on the pedigree site that got my mind churning. I worry that I can *see* the description of his father as fitting him- and worry that maybe it isn't enough to work hard...maybe I am fighting nature. I worry that people (like you) with a ton of experince have had to rehome his father (who he sounds a lot like) and wonder what the heck I am doing with this dog- am I up to the challenge that those with far more experience and knowledge walked away from?!


He CAN be aggressive- when he goes for the girls, we call it sharking....when he is excited he races for one of them and grabs their skin and pulls...lots of noise from all involved (no real wounds, lots more noise than action, but sometimes there are skin scrapes from teeth for all involved- he gets as well as gives). The girls get annoyed with him. They will play with him but he gets too rough (well too rough for old ladies with arthritis, bad hips and cranky dispositions) and a game can turn quickly- therefore they are NEVER unsupervised. We have been handling it by watching for his triggers (we KNOW them) and redirecting him (sit, hold, stay, whatever). It has resulted in less and less sharking and now just more annoying (teasing the girls with his toy, trying to get them to chase him, etc) so I feel this is workable (but again I may just be naive).

He grows, as I mentioned, less and less tolerant of OTHER dogs. He just does NOT seem to like them. Once we would go and meet other dogs without much worry...now I always have it in the back of my mind that he most likely will not like them. We have a playdate set up for next week that I hope goes well- another young GSD with lots of energy that I think wold be great for him! I would say this is my number one behavior concern outside of his anxiety.

He has NOT killed the cat- though I am sure he could have. The cat has lived with Sheps his whole life. He LIKES dogs- and likes to play with them. He will come out and call to Hunter.....and then stay just out of reach- makes Hunter CRAZY. At some point he will call and call, then run- he has always loved to be chased. Our GSD that died would chase him and then roll and snuffle him- and lick him all over (they would also sleep together)- I think the cat expects that still. If Hunter catches him he picks him up and carries him around- this the cat HATES- especially the saliva. We do not ALLOW this, but sometimes he defies leave it- it is our one command I feel is not solid and the most important one we have! We work it all the time.... anyway, his cat interactions seem more like hunting prey- he isn't aggressive about it (there really seems to be a difference with him, but maybe I am just too inexperienced and imagining it?)...when he is "hunting" it is something to see- sneaking quietly, using walls and furniture to hide, staying very very still, head low, eyes don't even blink...not even a muscle ripples....the cat will walk right past him and he does not move....but when the cat runs- holy cow! He picks his moment that's for sure! We tell him he is not invisible or fooling anyone when he does this but he seems to think he is









He is also EXTREMELY athletic as one of you mentioned his father was. I mentioned the jumping to the ceiling- but he can run, jump, turn on a dime, tug, swim...you name it like no other dog I have EVER seen. It is exhausting to watch- and he can just keep going!

I think he is pretty stable- we thought he had some aggressive tendancies when he was younger, but we really worked at it- making sure we controlled and directed him. We let him know what was expected (for instance he was NOT allowed to herd humans or other dogs). It means that now we are more attentive to his every move. We control his environment, we watch his body and mood and we respond accordingly. I am hoping that a sport will give him a place to redirect his energy. Someone suggested herding on the other board- our herding facility does not like him on their sheep- he is intense and I think they worry about how far he will go....but agility might be ok.

As for retrieving...well....we got a frisbee yesterday. He watched me throw it and eventually retrieve it myself without much interest. He had found the cover to a giant rubbermaid bin in the shed and had this huge thing in his mouth. He wanted to be chased (the children weren't interested). That seems to be about how it goes for retrieve. Eventually he decided to dig with the boy. The only time he digs is when my son is working on his hole to China (I have an odd child). He calls the beast over and commands dig. When interest wanes he just tells him dig again- but otherwise he most wants to be chased and everything he does is some long twisted way to get a chase started (like a chess master he seems to calculate)

I guess his pedigree just worries me....makes me wonder if you really can train and control or if I am just fooling myself. Can I ever really control what he is genetically bred to be? Before seeing this I felt like he was just going to always be a ton of work for us...now I wonder if that is even enough! Is it possible?


As I type this he and one of the old ladies have decided to wrestle...they are rolling around, holding each other's necks, legs, whatever part falls into the mouth...tails are wagging...lots of noise...he just went and got a toy to tug with her...it all seems normal, no undercurrent of aggression or insanity and I think maybe I am just reading too much into his genetics.....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

dogsnkiddos, do you have the parents of the mother? We might be able to tell you something about them even if we can't about her.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

I have the parents and a few generations back....
I can't post the little family tree chart...why am I a computer moron?
Hi mom is:
Hope von Staalhamer
Sable
Her mom is:
Sidonia von Beluga
DL899755/01 Sable
Her Dad is:
Feivel von den Wannaer Hohen
DL852763/01 Sable

Her mom's mom is:
Nina von der Dietersruh
DL 87416001 (01-02) Black and Red (Ger)

Her mom's dad is:
Atoll von Beluga
SZ 1826842

Her dad's mom is:
Olympia von den Wannaer Hohen
DL83537001 SBL (German)

Her dad's dad is:
Crok vom Erlenbusch
SZ 1735116

I have one more generation back on the tree i have- should I post it?

I asked before- should I be concerned that theis Crok guy is his mother's grand father and HIS grandfather (means his parents were uncle and neice?)?


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Let's see
Acco's parents (continuation of above):
Sire
Baron de Lupis Fidis
SZ 1571801 SCHH3 FH IP3
Dam
Tilli vom Dreibirkenhain
SZ 1649921 SCHH3 FH IP3


Amsel's parents:
Sire
Jack van Noort
SZ 1562350 SCHH3 FH IP3
Dam
Afra vom Stoppenbergerland
SZ 1451464 SCHH2


Crok's parents:
Sire
Mink von Haus Wittfield
DL217151 (03-85) Black and Tan (WGR)
Dam
Tanja vom Sudmuhlenkolk
SZ 1605258


Olympia's parents:
Sire
Blacky vom Neuen Lande
SZ 1745225
Dam
Deika von den Wannaer Hohen
SZ 1734671


Atoll's parents:
Sire
Picolo von der Murrenhutte
SZ 1761639
Dam
Taiga von Beluga
SZ 1760911


nina's parents:
Sire
Falk vom Klostergraben
SZ 1877562
Dam
Emi von der Dietersruh
SZ 1791243


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So, is this your dog's pedigree?
http://www.staalhamerkennel.com/pedolga.html


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:I guess his pedigree just worries me....makes me wonder if you really can train and control or if I am just fooling myself. Can I ever really control what he is genetically bred to be? Before seeing this I felt like he was just going to always be a ton of work for us...now I wonder if that is even enough! Is it possible?
> 
> I think maybe I am just reading too much into his genetics



I own Fievels' sister, so, I am familiar with the bloodline. I will just say this, lots of people will give you their opinions based what is on the papers. The advise can have the effect of making you worry too much about what could happen vs what you see in front of you....meaning the dog himself. You don't train the papers, you train the dog and when you worry too much about what "could" happen, many times this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.You already know who your dog is and know it better than anyone on this board. He doesn't sound unmanageable to me although I think I would end that game with the cat. The more that goes on, the more drive you are building and the more chance of things getting out of hand. I would say that about any dog, not just the dogs coming down thru Crok.
I don't know if SchH is the right place for you and the dog. There are quite a few SchH trainers who really need to learn a lot themselves. Therefore, they might bring out behaviors in your dog that would only worry you more. The biggest thing missing in SchH clubs seems to be understanding dogs, so, I would not be going to a club just to use as an outlet for energy. 

I personally would not do a linebreeding on Crok, I have chosen lines known for nerves to add to that line. However, last year I trained a dog who was out of a male who was closely linebred on Crok, 2-3 . He is in a pet home as well and I found him to be a very nice dog. I could see some of the behaviors that seem to be related to Crok, mostly the nippy stuff they do when they get excited but he was very trainable, a quick learner and liked to please. I gave the owners a few tips about what not to do and when I talked to them recently, they said all was going well with their dog who is probably getting close to two years old now. They walk him daily and work him in obedience daily as well. 
Sounds like your dog is a handful but not unmanageable. Maybe do more obedience training, this bloodline seems to really enjoy obedience and they are good at it. The tracking idea is not a bad one or any activity where he has to "think" and his energy is actually channeled . This is not a line where you just want to bring up drive and let it shoot out all over the place. Channel the intensity into behaviors you want.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

Thanks for all the advice..... it really is valuable. I guess I worry about being up to the task.... he is our fifth shepherd and the first one EVER like this for us. I feel like a first time owner all over again! I hate the nippy stuff when he is excited (what we call sharking) and we have been working HARD on that (with much success)..... the cat game is NOT one we encourage. We do allow the cat free access to the house (which includes places the dog does NOT have access) but we can't seem to train the cat to change his behavior. When the cat is out taunting we usually try the leave it and treat game..... I guess when we see the stalking we should rechannel that as well. Thanks for pointing that out.



Yes to the link on the dog's family tree.... when I started looking him up I had only his mother, father, and first set of grandparents..... I used the link way up there to build the rest- and then when I googled the info I was finding I got THAT same link you posted (for what i assume is my dog's sibling)....

between that tree you linked (mary) and the earlier link I began seeing all those letters and such and started asking more questions. Seeing all the letters, the dog names means little to me(since I don't know anything about any of those dogs or the letters- you know what it really means) 

No matter, he is still a beast, and still a part of our family- we just want to do right by him.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That explains the von vs. the van. This is an American kennel and not the European one. I wonder if they are related to the kennel in the Netherlands or just used their name.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It is interesting because the Feivel/Sidonia litter, one would think, would carry the Alte Baum kennel name. 
My dogs father is a son of Feivel and Sidonia (so a full brother to the pedigree I linked to), and he does not carry the Alte Baum name either.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

With the AKC - people can and do change names, erase kennel names on applications etc....I saw a dog wtih von Arlett kennel name recently in an ad - and it was sure not bred by Margart D. of von Arlett!!!! Ulk v Arlett was in the 3rd generation - so someone just picked it off the pedigree obviously.

Sedonia was all show lines - and may be she diluted some of the aggression from Fieval...I knew a girl in New York who got a male from the same cross, not as high in drive/aggression as his sire. 

Lee


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