# I must just be weird.



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Everyday I come to this forum and get frustrated and puzzled. I am sure I am the worst and weirdest dog owner ever. I have no particular training method, I use what works for the dog in front of me. I don't care much about looks, ears(grr), color, size or attitude. I embrace all aspects of my dogs, love the puppy backtalk, attitude and biting. Puppy breathe and sharp teeth are like heaven to me. I couldn't care less about dog hair or muddy feet and I will never understand this fixation with making or dogs smell like flowers. I love that warm dog smell. I laugh at the concept that my dogs should never sleep on my bed or share my food. Basically a long as they aren't behaving like complete a--clowns I don't care.
I was really good at teaching other peoples dogs to be obedient, model citizens. My own not so much. Probably because it matters not one bit to me. My dogs live by rules, the rest we sort out as we go. It would never occur to me to be disappointed in a dog who was the wrong color, or had the wrong coat, or was smaller or bigger then I expected, or had derpy ears. Anyone remember the person who was trimming their dog to convince everyone it was not a long coat? Or the guy who was going to rehome his 1 year old dog because it's ears didn't come up? Or the person who returned their young pup for landsharking? 
They are dogs. The stuff that makes them good dogs is on the inside, invisible to us. They are with us for such a short time I just wish I could make people see that all of these petty annoyances will be gone soon enough and that loss is so much more painful then a puppy bite. I wish I could make people understand that no two dogs are the same, they all learn different and they all grow different. There is no one size fits all training. I have had dogs I never trained who were amazing and others that I was sure were sent to test my sanity. I wish people would do their research and understand that these aren't phones that we just download an app on. 
Done ranting now.:smile2:


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Agree completely about looks. The rest, to each their own as long as the dog is cared for and not a menace or threat to people.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I think some people have an ideal in mind and then start assigning blame when it falls outside of that ideal fantasy.Living creatures are all unique individuals.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

_Or the person who returned their young pup for landsharking? 
_
Saw this the other day. Took me quite a few minutes to stop laughing!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> I think some people have an ideal in mind and then start assigning blame when it falls outside of that ideal fantasy.Living creatures are all unique individuals.



That's my issue exactly. It would never occur to us to rehome our children because they had blue eyes instead of green, or to remarry because our husband was 5'11" instead of 6'2". Well maybe, but not in my world. :laugh2:
If one child is an honors student and the other is dumb as a brick, we don't get rid of the slower one. We work and teach at their level.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

my little beagle / whippet mix was neurotic at times. I loved her to pieces and gave her a very good life, but I have to admit at times her neediness got me frustrated. What I didn't realize is that she was going into the last year of her life and was probably not feeling right. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty for getting annoyed with her neediness. I didn't understand. But we aren't perfect anymore than our dogs are.


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## Jpage24.87 (Jan 19, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I embrace all aspects of my dogs, love the puppy backtalk, attitude and biting. Puppy breathe and sharp teeth are like heaven to me.


I could not agree more. ?

Your rant is very similar one I made to my fiance last week, after a coworker of his rehomed their 1 year old shepherd due to destructive tendencies. I firmly believed it was a lack of teaching the dog what was appropriate and managing the dog's energy. I literally cried, because my heart broke for the owner, I know she loved that dog. My heart broke for the dog who was just expressing himself the way he was allowed to. He did go to a good place though, where his energy will definitely be redirected. It was just frustrating, and heartbreaking.
Dogs are never a convenience, they're very much the opposite, and cosmetics don't make the dog. I too wish for people to understand dogs are not toys, and should not be disposable when they aren't cosmetically ideal or when they're no longer puppies. I'm a firm believer that a lot of people don't deserve dogs.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’m a lot like you, minus the looks thing, but that’s because I love to show dogs. It kinda matters in that venue! 

I get on here and read about these young puppies knowing many commands, and I joke that I’m not sure Scarlet knows her name, lol. I love feisty, sassy dogs. Scarlet still adds some teeth when I ask for a kiss. She wails and carries on when I carry her bowl to the other room for her to eat. I love that she back talks when she’s annoyed with me, and barks at me when she wants something. She’s enthusiastic and cheery and massively entertaining. It’s why I have a dog. She loves me. I’m her person. 

My son, who always says “that dog is awful”, watched a video of her in the ring at the last dog show. My handler was stacking her, and he remarked “hey, she does know how to behave!” I’m not so sure she’s THAT bad, but she’s a pill. And I wouldn’t have it any other way. She’s so much fun. SO. MUCH. FUN. She’ll be 2 years old this month. Time is flying. 

I’m not sure I could live with a perfectly trained robot dog. I admire those people that can train like that, but I am far too lazy.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

car2ner said:


> my little beagle / whippet mix was neurotic at times. I loved her to pieces and gave her a very good life, but I have to admit at times her neediness got me frustrated. What I didn't realize is that she was going into the last year of her life and was probably not feeling right. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty for getting annoyed with her neediness. I didn't understand. But we aren't perfect anymore than our dogs are.


Now I'm thinking of my little guy who passed last year.He was the bravest,most loving and loyal companion you could ever want.Lord knows he had his issues but he was the one who would"take a bullet" for me.I learned so much from him and really miss that little sucker


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> That's my issue exactly. It would never occur to us to rehome our children because they had blue eyes instead of green, or to remarry because our husband was 5'11" instead of 6'2". Well maybe, but not in my world. :laugh2:
> If one child is an honors student and the other is dumb as a brick, we don't get rid of the slower one. We work and teach at their level.





Wow I agree....I take pride that my dogs are pretty well behaved when out some where....we get compliments on how well behaved they are....early on they learn what's acceptable and where boundaries lie.....but at my house after the pups become adults i let them be what they are....dogs ! Often there will be a thread here that someone's dog has a behavior that they're trying to correct...I'll chuckle....one of my guys will do that very "behavior" and I'll laugh at the dog because he's simply being what he/she is....a dog....It's always helped us since we have multiple dogs.. the young learn from the old....many good behaviors and how to just be....dogs.


As far as kids go I'm not so sure that if it was socially acceptable and legal....some folks very well might rehome a child because he/she doesn't fit the "perfect" cookie cutter mold......folks have a way of setting a bar waaayyyy to high IMO


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Well I must be weird too. I have only ever dealt with the dog in front of me. I don't show my dogs and they aren't working so they just have to follow some basic rules. Don't potty in the house, no teeth on skin, don't guard anything I have given you, come back when you are called and treat me, my family and anyone I invite into my house with respect. Ignore strangers unless I tell you otherwise. Doesn't mean they were perfect, over the years, extreme separation anxiety, food guarding, vet aggression, dog aggression. However they were part of my family so we worked through it. No family is perfect but they were part of my family. My only red line would have been if they had gone after me or my kids.
Apart from that, I love the GSD attitude. My current girl will bring me her lead when she wants walking or her bowl when she wants feeding and somedays that can be 3 or 4 times a day. She's an optimist lol. And I love GSD back chat, the naughty look my girl gets in her eyes or when I tell her to move she acknowledges me by wagging her tail but doesn't do it instantly.

_Or the person who returned their young pup for landsharking? 
_
That is what happened to my girl at 4.5 months. Handed into rescue. Their loss my gain. They gave up the sweetest little girl who loves people and just wants to engage.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Honestly, it always gets me when people get rid of a dog because 'the dog was a landshark and is very destructive and he doesn't listen to me and jumps like crazy on my kids' what do you do to exercise him? 'I walk him 2 times a day 30 mins each but he pulls on the leash a lot' dang lady/guy walking is a physical exercise for you but it's more structural for the dog he needs to run and play mental games and be trained and set up boundaries he doesn't listen to you cos you suck bye


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@dogfaeries show dogs ARE different, I do agree. But we are not all cut out to be super models, lol. And that's the annoying part. 
If you are looking for a show dog then by all means don't take the dog with the weird hump on it's muzzle or the one soft ear, but don't tell me that you are disappointed in your *pet* because it is too big or to small or the color is not what you expected.
@Misha111 I tell Shadow to move and she wiggles, or rolls over for belly tickles. 

It just seems like I'm the minority, and I don't know when dogs became display pieces. 

One of Shadow's ears was still struggling to come up at around 10 months and I used to laugh because it would wave at me while she was running about. But it honestly never occurred to me to be concerned, and I had to think about it when people started talking about it on here to try and remember how old she was. I was concerned at one point because it had been up and someone visiting grabbed it and it fell again. Not concerned about her appearance, concerned that she was injured and in discomfort. Sabi was the size of a moose, I never intended for her to be that big and in fact only realized how big she was when people started commenting that her front legs were bigger then my wrists. I mean the vet weighed her at visits but I never really paid any attention to the weight, just the "she's in good shape" part. 
People talk/complain/freak out all the time about landsharks, and tbh I never noticed it until I came to this forum. I just figured it was what shepherd puppies did. I don't know if maybe it's generational, I grew up knowing that puppies bite. I just keep my feet, legs and ankles covered, lol.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I always tell my breeder that Russ hurts my eyes. He’s not all that attractive, and is kind of a conformational train wreck. I think he’d be a little too much dog for the average pet owner, but he’s a GREAT dog. Everybody loves him. 

I came home from work the other day, and my nephew’s girlfriend was there with her little girl. They were doing a big art project in my dining room table. (My dogs and I have never met the little girl before.) The dogs were all crowded around her, lying at her feet. They never even got up when I came in, lol. They were fascinated by the child and were so gentle. They know when to tone it down. I care more about that, than I do with all the fancy tricks I could teach them. 

As far as looks, well, I could pick apart all three of my GSDs (and do) but I love them anyway. 

Am I the only one that’s a little sad when all the awful puppy antics go away? I guess because they never seemed so awful in the first place, lol.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> One of Shadow's ears was still struggling to come up at around 10 months and I used to laugh because it would wave at me while she was running about. But it honestly never occurred to me to be concerned, and I had to think about it when people started talking about it on here to try and remember how old she was.


I never realised people had a problem with their dogs ears or you could tape them until I joined this forum. An old timer like me thought they just sorted themselves out.And TBH, the state of their ears has never worried me. The majority get there in the end!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The breed standard exists to establish a breed conformity; physically and temperamentally. It should not matter for what purpose a GSD is kept, including pet status. A person is entitled to do their research for a dog breed that suits their lifestyle whether that be energy level, size, fur, flat faced, erect ears, blue eyes, color, HA, DA, aloof, friendly, can herd, hunt, retrieve, etc., and expect the dog to fall within its respective breed standard or close to it. This is the purpose for having dog breeds. If none of these things mattered, then there would be no breeds and any dog selected would be nothing but a pure crap shoot almost guaranteed not to meet any wants, needs, or expectations. Yes, even pet dogs need to fit into its owner's lifestyle and it would be 100% unfair to a dog to try to force a square peg into a round hole not to mention it would most likely be a constant source of frustration and disappointment to the owner. No matter how you slice and dice it, appearance and behavior is largely genetic. Yes, a highly skilled owner can manipulate a dog's behavioral genetics to a larger degree, but Joe Average is not as motivated or as knowledgeable to accomplish such feats. Another example, the GSD comes in a large range of size, 48-88 pounds per standard. Add or subtract a few pounds to adjust for those that will come in under standard or over. It is not fair to expect or tell somebody who wants a dog that is 45-50#s or prefers one that is 90-95#s to deal with it when their dog disappoints. That is quite a size disparity when somebody had reason to want or simply desires a smaller or larger dog. It is not up to us to judge another's preferences as long as those preferences are close to the breed standard. As GSD owners and stewards, it is up to us to discourage traits that do not meet the breed standard, not dismiss those that do as if breed does not matter.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The breed standard exists to establish a breed conformity; physically and temperamentally. It should not matter for what purpose a GSD is kept, including pet status. A person is entitled to do their research for a dog breed that suits their lifestyle whether that be energy level, size, fur, flat faced, erect ears, blue eyes, color, HA, DA, aloof, friendly, can herd, hunt, retrieve, etc., and expect the dog to fall within its respective breed standard or close to it. This is the purpose for having dog breeds. If none of these things mattered, then there would be no breeds and any dog selected would be nothing but a pure crap shoot almost guaranteed not to meet any wants, needs, or expectations. Yes, even pet dogs need to fit into its owner's lifestyle and it would be 100% unfair to a dog to try to force a square peg into a round hole not to mention it would most likely be a constant source of frustration and disappointment to the owner. No matter how you slice and dice it, appearance and behavior is largely genetic. Yes, a highly skilled owner can manipulate a dog's behavioral genetics to a larger degree, but Joe Average is not as motivated or as knowledgeable to accomplish such feats. Another example, the GSD comes in a large range of size, 48-88 pounds per standard. Add or subtract a few pounds to adjust for those that will come in under standard or over. It is not fair to expect or tell somebody who wants a dog that is 45-50#s or prefers one that is 90-95#s to deal with it when their dog disappoints. That is quite a size disparity when somebody had reason to want or simply desires a smaller or larger dog. It is not up to us to judge another's preferences as long as those preferences are close to the breed standard. As GSD owners and stewards, it is up to us to discourage traits that do not meet the breed standard, not dismiss those that do as if breed does not matter.


Well, you are certainly welcome to do as you please. Buds sire was 85lbs dam was 65lbs, he decided to be 95lbs. At no point did it occur to me that he should be killed, returned or otherwise disposed of because he was oversize. He was MY DOG! Shadow is sitting at the very bottom of the standard for a female, and is generally a rotten example of the breed for someone like you I guess. But she is here and here she will stay. Even the best of breeders produce dogs that just aren't quite there in some way or another, by your reasoning we should just kill those ones off because they aren't worthy. I worked for years with Arabian horses, sometimes you get foals that aren't quite up to snuff. No one kills them. No one suggests that they are not worthy, those are the ones that carry the breeders name into endurance or eventing or reining rather then halter or showmanship. German Shepherds are supposed to be working dogs, a soft ear does not remove any of that ability. An undersized dog can still herd, or track. And since the breed standard is fairly broad for size, if your male doesn't hit 85lbs or your female is barely 45lbs then suck it up. No one, not one of us is questioning breeding quality. We are simple saying that no one and nothing in nature is perfect. 

Going back 5 generations in my family the woman are no taller then 5'4" and the men no taller then 5'10". The woman tend to be really curvy and the men short legged and barrel chested. I am 5'8" with long legs and decidedly NOT curvy. So genetics will only get you so far, the rest is up to some other force of nature.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I think we're all a bit weird! And aspecially GSD owners! I mean, who in their right mind consents to never eating or sitting on anything again that does not contain dog hair LOL!

That being said, whether you train extensively, or take a more companiable approach, doesn't really matter.what matters is what these dogs do for our lives! I can honestly say that I would not be anything close to what I am now - for better or worse LOL - without having experienced the deep connection that I've had with all my dogs! It truly changes you. I have Loved them all very deeply. Crooked ears, small or large size, personality quirks, and all...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You picked a good title for this thread. I don't know how you misconstrue breeding dogs to a standard and for buyers to expect such practices from a breeder into not only killing dogs who are not perfect but especially killing your dogs. I never implied anything of the sort about dogs in general or your specific dogs. If you don't like this breed's standard, then maybe simply this is not the breed for you. Do not pretend that I said things that I clearly did not just because I don't agree with you about haphazard breeding and buyers having to suck it up or the dogs suffering due to poor breeding.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

...............MOD WARNING..................
Stop the bickering back and forth.Official warnings and time outs will be next.Agree,share a story,or disagree POLITELY then move on.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You picked a good title for this thread. I don't know how you misconstrue breeding dogs to a standard and for buyers to expect such practices from a breeder into not only killing dogs who are not perfect but especially killing your dogs. I never implied anything of the sort about dogs in general or your specific dogs. If you don't like this breed's standard, then maybe simply this is not the breed for you. Do not pretend that I said things that I clearly did not just because I don't agree with you about haphazard breeding and buyers having to suck it up or the dogs suffering due to poor breeding.


_It is not fair to expect or tell somebody who wants a dog that is 45-50#s or prefers one that is 90-95#s to deal with it when their dog disappoints_ What were you thinking would happen to these dogs? Sabi was the smallest pup in her litter and she grew up to be huge. Bud was the smallest male in his, and none of his brothers were anywhere near as big when grown. As I said, genetics is not the same as putting parts together. Bud had in no way haphazard breeding, and there was no indicators for oversize. Yet I ended up with an oversized dog. Frankly if you expect perfect go buy a statue. And I don't know where all the non perfect dogs go if they are not good enough to be pets, oh wait we go back to culling. 
I have no clue what your issues are and I don't care. Frankly your opinions mean nothing, I do however enjoy your attempts to make me feel bad, it is my daily entertainment. I find it vastly amusing that you think there is such a thing as a perfect dog, or that you think a good breeder never produces pups that are a bit substandard. I was speaking to a highly regarded breeder not long ago about a particular bitch she has and to quote her "Great bitch, may not breed her again though. I tried twice and she produces the United Nations of German Shepherds" My Dane came from a Harlequin breeder. These are not easy to breed and less then half a litter may have correct coloring, hers was flawed. Her black had merle in it, so he clubbed her over the head and dumped her. That is what you are suggesting, because by your own comments no imperfect dog has any business being a pet.
My point was if you are buying a dog for superficial reasons maybe you need to rethink getting a dog.


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## unfortunatefoster (Dec 17, 2017)

Oh Sabi, I so get it. Having done rescue for decades where dogs are posted on the internet and getting potential adopters that choose a dog based on only appearance, without reading a very honest assessment of the requirements of said dogs, then getting blasted for disqualifying them, I know exactly what you are saying.

Case in point, my SIL asked me about a 1 year old Cattle dog for herself, because she is soooo cute. She has no fenced yard. Spends zero time outside, except to get to her car. I may have insulted her when I said she should look for a dog that is not smarter than her  

I have never purchased a dog. I don't show and have no desire to. I am a strictly pet home. There are people who have more money than sense, have to have the perfect specimen, appearance wise, with no clue about behavior and training requirements. They are simply show pieces. They expect a Golden in a different package.

I would trade every bit of Simon's good looks for a dog that I could walk in public without a muzzle. To be able to trust him around house guests....flop those ears, change those agouti hairs to purple....I don't care. He is a beautiful dog with a very damaged soul.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm not against breed standards or breeding for purpose. I absolutely get it. That is why we went to a breeder for our latest dogs. That being said, our big-boy turns out isn't the best candidate for IPO. He gets too hot in the summer time. Other than that he is awesome. I'd never want to be one of those folks who say, "this dog won't do what I want. I can't afford to keep him if he doesn't. Sell him and get another". 

If I were a high ranking competitor who couldn't afford to feed, vet and train a dog that wouldn't bring high titles, I'd understand it. I hope those folks find the best home for their wash outs, other wise both the handler and dog will have frustrating lives. 

If I were raising show dogs and one didn't grow to be gorgeous, I can see selling the dog. That is the life of show dogs. Again, better to find another home. 

If I were a farmer and needed a good working dog but ended up with a 4 legged nerve bag, better to find a new situation for them than shoot them. 

We are a pet home. I do want my dogs to "work" and they have their jobs. I've the luxury of finding jobs that suit them and us. When folks asked if I was planning on breeding my dogs I answered "I love my gal-dog but she is not all that I expect of a German Shepherd so no." (great drive, great stamina, not enough confidence).

bottom line, I love my dogs, blemishes and all. I expect my dogs to behave like german shepherd dogs, inconveniences and all. I am glad that there are breeders out there who are particular about the details, so that our breed has a chance to stay the type of dog we love.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

My philosophy is, German Shepherds as a breed would not even exist without careful human selection and breeding (i.e. Captain Von Stephanitz, is that right). They were bred to have the specific physique and character traits that we love, and it is important that these qualities continue to be passed down. Unfortunately a lot of people breed just for looks (vs GSD intelligence, athleticism, courage, health, etc) and what do they care, because people pay top dollars for pedigreed puppies...or even just for any dog with the label "German Shepherd" on it.

On the other hand, for somebody like me...I work at home alone and I just wanted a dog to keep me company and to run/hike with. I felt that one of those $3500 dogs would be wasted on us, since we had no plans to work, title, show, etc! It's like buying a Porsche when you just want to be able to drive to the grocery store. My philosophy was that, in that case, I might as well as save a doggy life (and we love our rescue shep mix!).

But if I needed my dog to work under gunfire, to be reliable and dependable because lives depend on him, I would be grateful for the breeders who produce the kind of dog that I need - the right size to deter a man, but not too big (so that he can run for miles and climb things), brave & calm, intelligent enough to learn a lot of commands and figure out what to do in different situations, etc. 

And I agree with you, @Sabis mom - except that I confess, muddy paws and dog fur does bother me (I just vacuumed our car yesterday and I think I broke the huge industrial vacuum they provide at the carwash place. After sucking up huge wads of Rumo fur, it lost its suction...)!


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Good for you for only judging the inside, I really mean that, people like that are hard to come by. But I don't think there is anything wrong with folks who have preferences on "superficial" stuff and are upset when their dogs don't meet their preferences, especially if they paid good money to try to have their preferences met. I mean, definitely killing or dumping the ones that don't meet the owners' standards would be animal cruelty, but returning them to breeder (especially in the case of a serious out of standard fault) or re-homing responsibly sounds like good solutions to me as the owner can search for another dog that meets their preferences and the dog can be happy with someone else and the new owner can potentially get a good dog with minor fault for little money. However, if the owner can't find another good home for their dog, then yeah they have a responsibility to provide a good home to the dog and will be judged if they just throw the dog in shelter for not meeting their preferences. To sum up, I believe everyone is entitled to their choices and preferences regardless of how "superficial" they are as long as they try to do things responsibly


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

I think the point Sabis mom was trying to make was she dosen't understand folks being disappointed in a pup because of landsharking or one ear not standing perfect...to the point that they'd consider rehoming the dog because of it...as far as breeders go--yes it's up to them to continuously strive to achieve the "breed standard" BTW that's any breed-pick one....how well some breeders do once money becomes the most important thing--is debatable....now do I believe there are some breeders here on this forum who breed for the right reasons....YES !.... it's very obvious based on their responses to some threads here.


For me... based on my namesake right here....Shane....I'd gladly have taken two floppy ears and landsharking his entire life if we'd never--ever had to see him in his "wheel chair" because of DM....that wasn't in the cards though...so yeah....Sabis mom you are weird and if you ever decide to start a "Weird Club" I'll be a charter member


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shanes' Dad said:


> I think the point Sabis mom was trying to make was she dosen't understand folks being disappointed in a pup because of landsharking or one ear not standing perfect...to the point that they'd consider rehoming the dog because of it...as far as breeders go--yes it's up to them to continuously strive to achieve the "breed standard" BTW that's any breed-pick one....how well some breeders do once money becomes the most important thing--is debatable....now do I believe there are some breeders here on this forum who breed for the right reasons....YES !.... it's very obvious based on their responses to some threads here.
> 
> 
> For me... based on my namesake right here....Shane....I'd gladly have taken two floppy ears and landsharking his entire life if we'd never--ever had to see him in his "wheel chair" because of DM....that wasn't in the cards though...so yeah....Sabis mom you are weird and if you ever decide to start a "Weird Club" I'll be a charter member


At no point am I suggesting that breeders sacrifice the standard. Not in any way. But the reality is that living things will deviate from an ideal. I cannot comprehend how someone can bring a puppy home and not be aware that it is going to behave like a puppy. And I cannot understand how someone can care for a pet for months and then suggest a rehome because one ear failed, or it turned out to be a saddleback not a blanketback. 
Obviously a conformation prospect must be very close to ideal standard, and I get that. But a dog doing IPO or tracking or herding will not suffer from a minor superficial flaw. I am largely sure that the lost or injured folks that SAR dogs find are unconcerned about what the dog looks like. And the whole my dog does not respond to X method of training so it must be defective is just puzzling to me. @Shanes' Dad I would not have cared if Sabi was pink with purple polka dots and grew antlers if we could have avoided DM in exchange.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

All my dogs were rescues so what I know about breeders would fit on the head of a pin. I can find no fault in breeders trying to produce the best dog they can under the breed standards, that is probably how it should be. If a dog falls short of the standard, I can certainly understand not breeding them, but I do have a problem with culling if it means killing young, healthy, stable dogs because their ears are floppy , their color is not right or they are not the right size. I find that morally objectionable. I am not saying that all or even many breeders do that, I hope it is very rare. In fact, I wish it were non-existent. 

I am just a pet home and and have loved all three of my dogs the way they were. Before I adopted Gunther, though, I would have sworn that once I had taken a dog into my home, it would have been for life, but things don't always turn out the way you think. I was still grieving over Newlie's death when I adopted Gunther and it was a bad mistake. There wasn't a thing wrong with him, he was just not the right dog for me. He was much too young, a landshark, into everything and I couldn't get him involved in anything because he was under quarantine for canine flu. In two weeks time, I was under such stress that I broke out with shingles and I mean shingles on my face, in my scalp, in my ears and mouth. That was when I knew I had to do something. I rehomed Gunther with a guy I work with with, he is in his late 20's I believe and has several acres of land, and Gunther is doing great there. The whole family loves him, he's got other dogs to play with and lots of room to rip and run. And I get to hear all about his antics and see pictures and video clips so it's a win for me, too. I honestly believe in this case that he and I are both better off the way things worked out.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@ Newlie, you nailed it. The most important thing is for the dog to be in the right home. It is not fair to a dog to be in a home where he does not fit for whatever reason (s) that may be.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It shows that those people do not love unconditionally- not everybody does it’s a shame.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m going to be honest and blunt. I don’t see where there is a basis for any disagreement about breed standards. When I got a WL puppy, I chose that dog and breeder because I wanted a certain temperament and structure. I got a bit more than I expected in terms of drive, but otherwise, I got what I selected. I have been looking for a more therapy/service temperament for my next dog and have seriously considered I might need a different breed, because the type of GSD I want is not typically suited for it. If I do get another German Shepherd, which is by far my favorite breed, then I would intentionally look for one that is not standard in terms of sociability but otherwise standard in every way.

I also understand someone who does their research, gets what they think is a dog bred to standard and finds out later it isn’t. They have a right to be upset. Whether someone rehomes or not is a personal issue. Rehoming for a wonky ear is just heartless and silly. I don’t have respect for that. Rehoming because a dog is too much for the owner or is not what they can handle is a completely different situation. If someone just wants a family pet and gets a high drive dog they are unable to train or handle, it’s cruel to the dog to keep it. 

The responsibility lies with the buyer before they ever talk to a breeder. Learn the standard, research breeders, ask here, learn to read a pedigree. Know exactly what a breeder’s dogs throw and they will not ever or rarely, get the wrong dog for their situation.

I think pet lines have muddied up the breed. They are not really true German Shepherds. I would guess maybe half GSD owners don’t even know what the breed standard is. Then someone gets a dog that is standard and they are shocked. Or they are unprepared for the work it takes to move a puppy from landsharking and out of control energy to the adults they see out in their communities.

At the same time, just because some pet lines are non standard or rescues are giving out dogs that are not typical GSDs, why shouldn’t someone who ends up with a 100# dog out of 70# parents wonder if they were lied too? How often does a dog with a traceable genetic lineage from known stock end up that far out of standard? Probably less than 1%. A good breeder know what they are producing.

If it’s a rescue, you can’t trust any of them unless they have proven they know what they are doing and are honest. I just got a solicitation froma rescue for “high needs” dogs that are looking at long term fostering. Some had health problems but what jumped out at me is that every single dog they can’t find homes for is dog aggressive. Every one. I can tell breed pretty well from a picture and all but one are purebred. I actually trust this rescue to identify and evaluate dogs well, so when they admit the dogs are DA, I believe them. Why can’t they find homes? Because our breed is not supppsed to be DA. Oddly enough, out of about a dozen dogs, two are extremely HA but the rest are very sociable. Does that sound like a well bred GSD? Overly social and sweet toward people but DA?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just because a dog is not a right fit does not mean a person can't or doesn't love unconditionally but actually proves they love and care enough about others to make hard decisions that benefit all. 

Not everyone marries the first person they kiss or date because not everyone is right for anybody. Same can be said about dogs. German Shepherds are great family dogs for the right family, not all families. And even then there are variations within the breed which is why people are advised to visit training fields, kennels, and meet the parents of a prospective puppy. One size does not fit all.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@LuvShepherds, good post.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I’m not talking about the right fit I’m talking more along the lines of looks. People dumping dogs for soft ears etc, spots not place right etc. crooked noses, dogs that needs to be trained. There are so many dogs that are dumped for all kinds of reason that there are rescues every other mile. I have kids I know all about the necessity of choosing dogs to being able to mesh well in a busy home it was the number one priority. Yes on one size does not fit all for sure. I remember bring picking up my horse the first time it is exciting but I was worried are we doing to mesh well are we going to bond is this going to work. A big expense and heartbreaking otherwise. I was happy we were able to get a trial basis. I counted my blessings it worked out so well. He was certainly one of kind special. I do realize this is not alway the case no matter how much effort you put into it. Think about my horse jay I’m getting ready eyed - nothing new - max is watching with concern and calmness how I love that dog he is in tune with every emotion.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

When my working line GSD's ears did not stand by the time he was 6.5 months, I did.... Nothing. When my showline's ears did not stand at 6 months, I taped.....REMOVED BY MODERATOR....

Somebody may want a larger GSD because they have plans of using it as a mobility support service dog. What do they do when the dog hits 45# as an adult? Should they keep getting another and another until they get the 90# dog they need? Should they never re-home any? 

Breed standards have their place. I remember when my first bitch grew to 80#. The breeder said he expected that as there were a lot of big dogs in her lineage. This is why it is important to go to a good breeder that knows their dogs if one has specific wants or needs. We should not be beating up on newbies that didn't know better. We all started somewhere.

Dogs deserve good homes where they are treated with love and respect, not kept by someone who is disappointed in them.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> I’m not talking about the right fit I’m talking more along the lines of looks. People dumping dogs for soft ears etc, spots not place right etc. crooked noses, dogs that needs to be trained. There are so many dogs that are dumped for all kinds of reason that there are rescues every other mile. I have kids I know all about the necessity of choosing dogs to being able to mesh well in a busy home it was the number one priority. Yes on one size does not fit all for sure.


I’m curious how many quality breeders end up producing puppies that have physical flaws which are not standard. Of course there are genetic anomalies, but a good breeder knows if a dog is going to consistently produce defective dogs not to breed them again. A breeder who knows their lines will be able to make different choices for subsequent breedings. All puppies need training, German Shepherds especially need good solid foundation work. Those odd features are usually visible as puppies and the buyer can always choose not to buy the dog.

I follow a few rescue groups and rarely are dogs dumped because they have a crooked tail. They are just as likely to be dumped because someone remodeled and got new furniture or floors. People can be very thoughtless about dogs. I knew someone who had her dog put to sleep because it had Cushings and smelled bad. I happened to have a loved GSD with the same disease that we were treating successfully at the same and were able to avoid bad smells. I could never be friends with that woman again. Her dog was a beagle boxer mix and she wanted a purebred so she euth’d the dog on an excuse rather than try to treat it.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> I’m not talking about the right fit I’m talking more along the lines of looks. People dumping dogs for soft ears etc, spots not place right etc. crooked noses, dogs that needs to be trained. There are so many dogs that are dumped for all kinds of reason that there are rescues every other mile. I have kids I know all about the necessity of choosing dogs to being able to mesh well in a busy home it was the number one priority. Yes on one size does not fit all for sure.





Exactly..you get it!....that's precisely what Sabis mom meant when she started this thread.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lol I love Dobermans I like the ears cropped and and tails docked. I worked with a vet who was best at doing so. If my gsd ear flopped I would try my best to get it to stand I would not dump him if there was a fail. There are a lot of people who do it is shocking but true.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Shane’s dad- Yes thank you. Superficial stuff I was commenting on as this thread was about- I was like what -I had to reread.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> Lol I love Dobermans I like the ears cropped and and tails docked. I worked with a vet who was best at doing so. If my gsd ear flopped I would try my best to get it to stand I would not dump him if there was a fail. There are a lot of people who do it is shocking but true.



Ears. They have the ability to drive me crazy, lol. 

I took in a beautiful Dobe one time that had one ear down. It drove me nuts, I’ll admit, because I love a pretty head. But she was a fabulous dog, a great pet. I had to find her a home because I already had a female Dobe and same sex aggressive reared it’s ugly head. She found a new home because of that, not because of her goofy ear. 

I had a puppy mill rescue Italian Greyhound whose ears stood straight up, and went blind at 3 from a genetic eye disease (thank you puppymiller). I had her for 15 years, and not a day went by that her ears didn’t bug me. But she’s been one of my all time favorite dogs. I can’t imagine not having her because of those ears!

I haven’t had to deal with soft ears on any of the GSDs I’ve shown. 

Russell has the ugliest feet I’ve ever seen on a dog. I try not to look at them, lol.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

newlie said:


> All my dogs were rescues so what I know about breeders would fit on the head of a pin. I can find no fault in breeders trying to produce the best dog they can under the breed standards, that is probably how it should be. If a dog falls short of the standard, I can certainly understand not breeding them, but I do have a problem with culling if it means killing young, healthy, stable dogs because their ears are floppy , their color is not right or they are not the right size. I find that morally objectionable. I am not saying that all or even many breeders do that, I hope it is very rare. In fact, I wish it were non-existent.
> 
> I am just a pet home and and have loved all three of my dogs the way they were. Before I adopted Gunther, though, I would have sworn that once I had taken a dog into my home, it would have been for life, but things don't always turn out the way you think. I was still grieving over Newlie's death when I adopted Gunther and it was a bad mistake. There wasn't a thing wrong with him, he was just not the right dog for me. He was much too young, a landshark, into everything and I couldn't get him involved in anything because he was under quarantine for canine flu. In two weeks time, I was under such stress that I broke out with shingles and I mean shingles on my face, in my scalp, in my ears and mouth. That was when I knew I had to do something. I rehomed Gunther with a guy I work with with, he is in his late 20's I believe and has several acres of land, and Gunther is doing great there. The whole family loves him, he's got other dogs to play with and lots of room to rip and run. And I get to hear all about his antics and see pictures and video clips so it's a win for me, too. I honestly believe in this case that he and I are both better off the way things worked out.


 I was definitely not referring to someone ending up with just flat out too much dog. That edges towards dangerous for both you and the dog and is something entirely different. But how many aggressive 8/12/14 week old puppy posts do we see? 

Temperament is something that I absolutely agree must suit the owner and their lifestyle. It just seems like an awful lot of people get really foolish about silly things.


Lets just run this scenario, totally fictional and something we see continuously on the forum.

I have 3 kids under 10 and I want a shepherd puppy. I have had dogs before. I know what I'm doing. I buy me a Wolfstraum puppy (Sorry Lee, just fiction), lie to get him because I have been lurking on the forum and I know what I need to say. We bring puppy home and all is grand. A month later puppy has no training, no manners and has decided my middle child is a play toy. Breeder is responding with train the puppy, keep the kids under supervision, bring him back. I am not doing any of that because I don't believe in crates and GSD's are good family dogs. This one is broken. I was lied to. Fast forward 6 months. My vet says neuter it will calm him down, so I do. Nothing changes. Now puppy spends most of his time in the basement, which he has destroyed, no one walks him because he pulls, we can't let him loose because he won't come back and one ear isn't standing probably because my oldest child liked pulling on it and folding it into a triangle. We aren't talking to the breeder anymore because she doesn't understand. We lied and she wants her puppy back.
Fast forward a year. Lee just got a call that one of her dogs is in a shelter. She goes to get poor boy because she is a good breeder and is confronted with an out of control, overweight, leggy dog with one completely screwed ear. He bites, he jumps, he has zero idea how to behave with people or dogs but she is taking him home because she produced him. 

What now? Did the buyer get lied to? Did the breeder get screwed? The dog surely did.
Should he never have a home because he is now not a good representation of the breed? What should have happened in the beginning?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I think one of the problems is there is so much bad general information out there and very few people realize that there are things they can research to help with their dogs. 

To the people who have no idea to train and work with a biting puppy. They likely feel awful, same with an out of control dog because they never trained it. It is not the dogs fault but at the same time I can definitely feel sorry for the people. Chances are they've been given bad advice and can't figure anything out. If they could find a mentor or somebody who knew what they were doing they'd likely be great owners. But for some people it isn't easy. It isn't that they don't love the dog but are likely at their last straw or simply can't handle it. Not all people have high limits of tolerance or know that breeds matter. Or more likely they met somebody who had a grown great one and think their dog will be just like that. I've talked with people I really like and respect and shared basic information about dogs they'd never heard before. If you aren't actively looking for the information it isn't always right there. When there are people who believe that chocolate milk comes from brown cows and so many other things like that it's easy to understand how this happens. 

It does frustrate me to no end the people who get mad at dogs for not being potty trained. Mainly puppies. People don't seem to realize is that they are babies. If they were people we'd have them wearing diapers. It was also interesting to learn that you have to learn bladder control and how to hold it. It generally comes with age and that's something to keep in mind. 

On the other hand I do agree somebody who would get rid of a dog because it's ear doesn't stand up or it's tail curls is kinda of being ridiculous. Unless say they're a breeder and sell the dog to s pet home. As far as size goes this could be a very real issue. There are size limits and restrictions along with breed bans. But say somebody wants a GSD and can have one as long as it is under 60 pounds but then ends up with one 90 pounds? That could be an issue. Maybe they should have gotten a breed but it's also possibly they could be an amazing home for the right GSD. 

Something else I've thought. If you get a breed standard female chances are they aren't going to be great big dogs. Chances are say if she's sick or injured I could pick her up really easy in an emergency say to rush to the vet. But it could be a lot harder with an oversized one. 

I personally would keep a dog with a wonky ear or the wrong size. Although I would prefer the ears to stand up. One of the many reasons I like German shepherds. However honestly having dealt with dogs with several behavioral issues I'm not sure I could handle if the dog I got ended up being severely dog aggressive or say had intense fear. And since I plan on going to a good breeder I should be able to avoid that. And I should be able to expect to avoid that. It is insane how many severe dog aggressive GSDs there are getting to be. One I knew recently had to be put down after she went after a couple dogs. Nice dog other than that.

One thing though. I think it's unfair to say that because somebody has a trained dogs it's a robot. I train my dogs and teach them manners. But I also let them be dogs. No they aren't going to jump up on people or steal food from the counter. But they also get to run around and have fun and be themselves.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes, I agree Sabi that there are a percentage of people who really feel no commitment to their animals. They bring them home, stick them in their yards or on a chain and forget about them and then can't understand why the dog misbehaves. People who will bring their dogs in to be euthanized because they need a monthly prescription for medication that will cost them $3. And talk about ridiculous, wasn't there even a story about a woman who turned her dog back into a shelter because his coloring didn't match her new carpet? Idiots.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> I think one of the problems is there is so much bad general information out there and very few people realize that there are things they can research to help with their dogs.
> 
> To the people who have no idea to train and work with a biting puppy. They likely feel awful, same with an out of control dog because they never trained it. It is not the dogs fault but at the same time I can definitely feel sorry for the people. Chances are they've been given bad advice and can't figure anything out. If they could find a mentor or somebody who knew what they were doing they'd likely be great owners. But for some people it isn't easy. It isn't that they don't love the dog but are likely at their last straw or simply can't handle it. Not all people have high limits of tolerance or know that breeds matter. Or more likely they met somebody who had a grown great one and think their dog will be just like that. I've talked with people I really like and respect and shared basic information about dogs they'd never heard before. If you aren't actively looking for the information it isn't always right there. When there are people who believe that chocolate milk comes from brown cows and so many other things like that it's easy to understand how this happens.
> 
> ...


Exactly! You got it!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> One thing though. I think it's unfair to say that because somebody has a trained dogs it's a robot. I train my dogs and teach them manners. But I also let them be dogs. No they aren't going to jump up on people or steal food from the counter. But they also get to run around and have fun and be themselves.



It's not trained dogs, it's the dogs I see everyday who are not allowed to sniff or look or play. 


When I first got Lex she had been drilled to the point that when I put her out in my yard she simply sat there and waited for me to tell her to do something. It was very sad. I told her to go lay down because I was putting something away and went looking for her an hour later and she was right where I had left her. Where Sabi would have understood that I just wanted her out of my way, all Lex heard was down and down she stayed until I went looking for her.

Years ago a lady her in Calgary surrendered her Dalmation because she had redecorated and it didn't match. No joke, I was there.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Ah, I brought up the robot dog because I see too many people who are extremely rigid with their dogs. All the personality gets sucked out of them, and they rarely get to act like dogs. Dogs are joyful and spontaneous. My hooligans don’t jump on people, or bite them, they immediately get off the furniture when I say off. But they also wrestle loudly in the living room, bring that darn jolly ball in through the dog door, stick their heads in the refrigerator and the clothes dryer, and a myriad of other mildly obnoxious behaviors. 

You know what everyone’s complaint is about my dog Carly? She’s “perfect” therefore kind of boring. Since the day I got her at 9 weeks she’s been serious and polite. She’s 8 years old now and she’s still serious and polite. This wasn’t training, it’s her genetics. Her mother was exactly the same way. She’s a lovely dog and I love her dearly, but I’ll admit I like a rascally dog more.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

I feel like that, too. I believe in teaching basic manners but, after that, I like each dog to have room to just be unique. Our life revolves around having animals as family and we don’t care about mud or fur or kennels in the living room. ?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I feel like it's unreasonable to get a dog because you want a dog and then get mad or upset because it's a dog doing dog things. 
I understand that people may want nice or clean things but getting angry at a dog for shedding is not sensible. Or yelling because it puked on your white carpet.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I love my dog for who he is, his funny little quirks, the goofy things he does and the sweet things too. He is my family. When I'm having a bad day he is right there never leaving my side. I would do the same for him. I couldn't have asked for a more loyal friend. I wouldn't have cared much if his ears didn't stand or if he was the wrong color... I find dog shows (and human beauty shows) very weird. I dont care for breeding dogs just on appearance... I feel like they should also be exceptionally smart dogs, or proven talents. However, I expect my dogs to know basic human manners... don't steal food... dog pee on human things... etc. we went to a BBQ party yesterday and someone brought their mutt on a leash... they let it walk right up to the cooler full of drinks and lift it's leg and mark all over the cooler and drinks. They didn't even say anything or try to interrupt it, just let the dog pee all over and finish and walk away without apologizing!!! Not the dogs fault... in my opinion the rude persons fault. Dog fur on the other hand is a different story, we just got a roomba and now problem solved lol. Clean house and we don't have to eat fur !


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I love my dog for who he is, his funny little quirks, the goofy things he does and the sweet things too. He is my family. When I'm having a bad day he is right there never leaving my side. I would do the same for him. I couldn't have asked for a more loyal friend. I wouldn't have cared much if his ears didn't stand or if he was the wrong color... I find dog shows (and human beauty shows) very weird. I dont care for breeding dogs just on appearance... I feel like they should also be exceptionally smart dogs, or proven talents. However, I expect my dogs to know basic human manners... don't steal food... dog pee on human things... etc. we went to a BBQ party yesterday and someone brought their mutt on a leash... they let it walk right up to the cooler full of drinks and lift it's leg and mark all over the cooler and drinks. They didn't even say anything or try to interrupt it, just let the dog pee all over and finish and walk away without apologizing!!! Not the dogs fault... in my opinion the rude persons fault. Dog fur on the other hand is a different story, we just got a roomba and now problem solved lol. Clean house and we don't have to eat fur !



Agree totally, @dogfaeries mentioned something similar earlier. Shadow is a hooligan, but is weirdly well behaved in and around the house. She follows the rules, goes to lay down when I am eating, moves when I say move and is totally cool. The vaulting on the couch is just funny, dragging her "blanky" around and backtalking in protest are just things she does. If we have muddy floors or the occasional outside toy inside it is all just part of the fun

When I went camping last week she would not even relieve herself in my campsite but would ask to be taken for a walk away from camp to do her business. I actually expected she would just go to the edge but no, in her mind the area was the "house". 
Even Bud knew better then to pee on the cooler!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > I love my dog for who he is, his funny little quirks, the goofy things he does and the sweet things too. He is my family. When I'm having a bad day he is right there never leaving my side. I would do the same for him. I couldn't have asked for a more loyal friend. I wouldn't have cared much if his ears didn't stand or if he was the wrong color... I find dog shows (and human beauty shows) very weird. I dont care for breeding dogs just on appearance... I feel like they should also be exceptionally smart dogs, or proven talents. However, I expect my dogs to know basic human manners... don't steal food... dog pee on human things... etc. we went to a BBQ party yesterday and someone brought their mutt on a leash... they let it walk right up to the cooler full of drinks and lift it's leg and mark all over the cooler and drinks. They didn't even say anything or try to interrupt it, just let the dog pee all over and finish and walk away without apologizing!!! Not the dogs fault... in my opinion the rude persons fault. Dog fur on the other hand is a different story, we just got a roomba and now problem solved lol. Clean house and we don't have to eat fur !
> ...


Now that is a GOOD dog!
Exactly there is a definite line between clean and gross!!!! A little mud because it was rainy outside and he went and played and came inside is no big deal. What kind of life is it if you're living in a sterile bubble? And I am a seriously OCD person. I literally clean all the time. But it's so worth it... and so not the dogs fault! Nothing is funnier than zoomies and vaulting on the couch occasionally... dancing in the kitchen while dinners getting ready and the dog joins in too!!!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My couch used to be in the flight path of the dog door. There’s nothing like seeing a GSD launch themselves over the couch and out the dog door in one fluid movement.


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## Arathorn II (Oct 7, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I embrace all aspects of my dogs, love the puppy backtalk, attitude and biting. Puppy breathe and sharp teeth are like heaven to me.


Puppy breathe yes. Poopy breathe no. :grin2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Lol I love Dobermans I like the ears cropped and and tails docked. I worked with a vet who was best at doing so. If my gsd ear flopped I would try my best to get it to stand I would not dump him if there was a fail. There are a lot of people who do it is shocking but true.
> ...


Italian greyhound with ears standing how unique lol! Our chihuahua has thin ears that are to thin stand. I love the way they can blow around in the wind lol!


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