# Question regarding bloodlines and maturity



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Hi there, 
I was just curious to get some input on what kind of lines my dog comes from (what they were used primarily, anyone have experience with these lines, etc.?) I'm still pretty new to all this but i'm trying to learn more! I'm also curious if his lines are more working or showing? Based off his breeder i'm going to guess showing but i'm not certain past the first generation. Do you notice anything in particular that's interesting here such as health issues? Also at what age do working lines mature vs. show lines? 
Here is his lineage: 

Sire: Herr Foxhunt Vom Sutumer Grund
Dam: Foxhunt's Lil' Miss Charmer

Pedigree: (this is his sister) Foxhunt's Lil' Miss B Haven

Thanks! :smile2:

PS: When we went to visit the kennel the father was extremely skiddish (couldn't even get close enough to pet him and he was too scared to approach us on his own) but the mother was very friendly and outgoing. Interesting enough our pup seems to have taken after mom, he is fearless! We met the grandmother as well and she was very loving.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd say the primary goal throughout his pedigree was showing. A little obedience here and there.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd say the primary goal throughout his pedigree was showing. A little obedience here and there.


Thanks Steve :grin2: , do you know when show lines generally mature? 1 year? 3 years? Also is there anyway to tell on the pedigree site what age his ancestors passed away and what the cause was? I also find it really interesting that its mostly show lines but he seems to have a lot of drive to me (great food & ball drive, very motivated to please).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't think of it that narrowly. Dogs go through changes roughly at 9mos, 12mos, 15mos, 2years, and 4 years. The difference between 2 years and 3 years isn't really that huge, but at 4 it generally is. 4-7 is prime, its downhill after that. Some people can probably pinpoint specifics and narrow it down to this line or that line, but this does well enough for anything I've owned or wanted to do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm seeing the same thing as Steve. Just like people, dogs continue to mature until the point they become crotchety old people sitting on a porch sniping at the young


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Crotchety, yep. I passed sniping to yelling a couple years ago.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Need to get a white shepherd expert in here, as I am not familiar with many of those abbreviations, but mostly show lines predominate. There are some schutzhund dogs in his ancestry, too, and some of the show dogs have performance titles in obedience, tracking and even herding!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Need to get a white shepherd expert in here, as I am not familiar with many of those abbreviations, but mostly show lines predominate. There are some schutzhund dogs in his ancestry, too, and some of the show dogs have performance titles in obedience, tracking and even herding!


Awesome I bet that is where his drive came from!! I talked to the owner of White Wolf O Connar (great grandfather) she said his dad bit her in the butt the day she went to pick him up as a puppy (went out the back door and didn't realize the guard dog was waiting!) LOL. I'm not sure I would have brought home that particular pup :grin2: She said the White wolf passed away from DM at 10 years old, that wouldn't have been passed on to my boy would it? How does my guys parents health clearances look overall? We've already dealt with some medical issues. Would love to hear some more opinions from white shepherd experts! I'm also curious because his parents were both short coat and he was a long coat in a large litter of short coats, it seems like European lines tend to favor long coats and USA despises them? Is that true?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Showlines.

There are some soft performance titles on few dogs in there, Companion Dog, Rally Novice, and Low level herding - Junior herding and herding instinct tests. Lots of CGCs... I personally wouldn't trust any of these titles as a testament to a dog's working abilities. All beginner level stuff that doesn't really put much pressure on the dog. This breeder's passion clearly is in the show ring with the occasional extra curricular for funzies. 

Meh. Not my type of breeder, but each to their own... THIS however:



GandalfTheShepherd said:


> PS: *When we went to visit the kennel the father was extremely skiddish (couldn't even get close enough to pet him and he was too scared to approach us on his own)* but the mother was very friendly and outgoing. Interesting enough our pup seems to have taken after mom, he is fearless! We met the grandmother as well and she was very loving.


HUGE RED FLAG

Any "breeder" that would purposely use a dog like this in their program is... Well things that I cannot say on this forum and not expect a mod warning. 

It is the epitome of the problems in the GSD. I believe that many of the white shepherd people breed for a different temperament... but I don't see a responsible breeder of any breed using this type of sire. 

Luckily that Gandalf didn't get that set of genes!!!

Well... actually... Maybe he did? Obviously he is no where near as bad as his sire, but with his family history - I wonder if he is more prone to stress and anxiety and it exasperates his GI issues... There is a huge connection between cortisol levels and GI health. Shepherds in general are pretty emotionally complex dogs and so in tune with their people. Managing stress levels (his and yours) might be something to look into going forward.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Showlines.
> 
> There are some soft performance titles on few dogs in there, Companion Dog, Rally Novice, and Low level herding - Junior herding and herding instinct tests. Lots of CGCs... I personally wouldn't trust any of these titles as a testament to a dog's working abilities. All beginner level stuff that doesn't really put much pressure on the dog. This breeder's passion clearly is in the show ring with the occasional extra curricular for funzies.
> 
> ...


Yep as soon as I met his dad I thought the same thing... but we waited 12 hours in an unknown town for this puppy that we quickly fell in love with and it was 2 AM so we took him and hit the road (breeder told us she would be home so we went on a 7 hour drive and waited at her door when she didn't show up.... that should have been our RED FLAG!). The father was imported I think, all the dogs she owned were very well socialized and friendly so i'm not so quick to blame her on that one. I agree... not very happy with how focused they are on showing, I think there are more important things. Doesn't seem as if Gandalf inherited these bad qualities at least not yet, he is as sharp as a whip! I don't think the anxiety effects his GI issues, we have had some stressful days on his new food now and no issues. I think it was just awful allergies, thank god but at the same time it sucks. He seems rock solid for now. The transition to My Pet Carnivore also went great, no diarrhea since we got him on the raw. The breeders kennel was apparently infested with giardia, I think that is what started the stomach trouble. The breeders contract of course covers allergies but Id have to return him.... !!!!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I don't think the anxiety effects his GI issues


I'm not a doctor, but I'd consider this before any allergies.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm not a doctor, but I'd consider this before any allergies.


We did an allergy test and confirmed the foods we were feeding he was allergic too. Switched foods without a transition and the diarrhea disappeared and hasn't came back. I ran him through a carnival yesterday with thousands of people in a tight space brushing up against him with loud obnoxious rock music and dogs lunging at him and hundreds of food smells (what is more stressful than all of that) and he had a perfect poop that evening lol. I'm still amazed with his solid nerves with a sire like that. 

But down below it says your a "doc"?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe its the crotchety in me, but I don't have a lot of faith in those allergy tests.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Maybe its the crotchety in me, but I don't have a lot of faith in those allergy tests.


So far it has made sense and been 100% accurate... i've tried some of his approved foods on the list for funsies and he has been perfect. The test revealed he was highly allergic to fish and chicken and that was what he was eating when he was throwing up blood and diarrhea. Maybe they have gotten better at it over the years? Allergies can change too, I think that's important to note.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

_She said the White wolf passed away from DM at 10 years old, that wouldn't have been passed on to my boy would it? How does my guys parents health clearances look overall?_

I am not finding health testing results for anything, for any of those dogs. DM is a huge concern for me, other folks are not bothered by it since it is late onset. I would be doing my own testing if it were my dog.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> _She said the White wolf passed away from DM at 10 years old, that wouldn't have been passed on to my boy would it? How does my guys parents health clearances look overall?_
> 
> I am not finding health testing results for anything, for any of those dogs. DM is a huge concern for me, other folks are not bothered by it since it is late onset. I would be doing my own testing if it were my dog.


Thank you for that info, how is DM testing done? Blood test? How much does it usually run from your vet? Is it recommended to get it tested early or should we just wait until he is older? What preventative measures can be taken? Sorry for all the questions! I have never had a DM dog before.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> But down below it says your a "doc"?


Thats my dogs name and a link to his pedigree.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats my dogs name and a link to his pedigree.


Can you put your dog on so we can talk then? :rofl:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

No, he's allergic to the internet.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Or it could be me cussing about windows 10 stressing him out.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Thank you for that info, how is DM testing done? Blood test? How much does it usually run from your vet? Is it recommended to get it tested early or should we just wait until he is older? What preventative measures can be taken? Sorry for all the questions! I have never had a DM dog before.


Steve may have access to sites that I don't but Pedigree database relies on the info that you input, so basically you can enter whatever info you like. 
It concerns me that for all those hip and elbow tests shown, not a single one is registered with OFA. Usually OFA can come up with something on a kennel name. 
DM is a swab test you can order it and submit yourself or have your vet do it. Generally it is somewhere in the $60-90 range.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Testing for DM is simple and non invasive, I tested one of my dogs earlier this year. You order a kit (through OFA or a different provider). It comes in the mail, you swab the inside of your dog's cheek for a few seconds, let it dry, seal it up, and mail it in. Results are sent in a week or two. 

You have the option whether or not to have results released publicly.... so not all results may show up on OFA's database, particularly if you use a different test service provider. 

The gray area comes into play because not all "Affected" dogs become symptomatic, yet some "Carriers" may, and so on. There are some pretty long thread discussions about DM on this forum.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yep as soon as I met his dad I thought the same thing... but we waited 12 hours in an unknown town for this puppy that we quickly fell in love with and it was 2 AM so we took him and hit the road (breeder told us she would be home so we went on a 7 hour drive and waited at her door when she didn't show up.... that should have been our RED FLAG!). *The father was imported I think, all the dogs she owned were very well socialized and friendly so i'm not so quick to blame her on that one. *I agree... not very happy with how focused they are on showing, I think there are more important things. Doesn't seem as if Gandalf inherited these bad qualities at least not yet, he is as sharp as a whip! I don't think the anxiety effects his GI issues, we have had some stressful days on his new food now and no issues. I think it was just awful allergies, thank god but at the same time it sucks. He seems rock solid for now. The transition to My Pet Carnivore also went great, no diarrhea since we got him on the raw. The breeders kennel was apparently infested with giardia, I think that is what started the stomach trouble. The breeders contract of course covers allergies but Id have to return him.... !!!!


Ugh to the unprofessionalism and giardia. 

Here's the thing, the type of behavior you described in the sire is genetic. A well bred dog with solid nerves does not NEED socialization (beyond the critical imprint periods in young puppyhood before they are even weaned) in order to be a stable adult. However if you well socialize a weaker nerved dog, the experience can make them _appear_ to be stronger nerved then they actually are (Which is why it is so important to test dogs for breeding suitability in ways that put them under pressure)

A responsible breeder would have sent an import like that back or placed him in a pet home or what ever, but definitely NOT use him for breeding. 

ESPECIALLY if, as I think from other posts of yours you mentioned, they are breeding for service prospects. I think you even said he was from service dog lines at one point? You got lucky with Gandalf that he did not inherit the sire's temperament... but not every pup this dog produces is going to be that lucky. At best it's a huge financial burden on people who purchase a SD prospect to have it wash and at worst this is an outright DANGEROUS situation considering public access needs of service dogs. A weak nerved dog is a fear biter - dangerous for the public and all other service dog users. A weak nerved dog will not be able to focus on it's tasks and that can be dangerous for the disabled person relying on the dog. 

There is a pervasive issue in the GSD world. Most anyone can learn to recognize a typical BYB or puppy mill and learn to stay away... but then you have breeders that LOOK good. They health test. They have imported or titled stock. They do things with their dogs (Showing, sports, etc). It's like they can check off everything on the list... but when digging deep... They produce messes. And the worst part is you practically have to be the illegitimate love child of Hercule Poirot and Sherlock Holmes to figure it out. 

I think these type of breeders do more damage to the breed as a whole than the worst of the BYBs. They blur the line between what is a well bred dog and what is not. And often the part of the standard they seem most lax on - is IMHO the most important part - the temperament section.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Steve may have access to sites that I don't but Pedigree database relies on the info that you input, so basically you can enter whatever info you like.
> It concerns me that for all those hip and elbow tests shown, not a single one is registered with OFA. Usually OFA can come up with something on a kennel name.
> DM is a swab test you can order it and submit yourself or have your vet do it. Generally it is somewhere in the $60-90 range.


I did just manage to locate Dads OFA tests. Sorry. Just needed to change a couple of things in the search.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

At this point it's sort of immaterial, right?! Red flags, blue flags, flags with stripes, you're attached so it's no longer relevant.

Gandalf is showing all the promise you were hoping for...everything else is secondary. The father's temperament aside, Gandalf seems very stable and confident, so forget daddy and make your dog all he can be by believing in him, and trusting him. IME dogs react sometimes way beyond your expectations when given that trust!


My dog has a lot of white shepard show line dogs in her background too, and her nerves are rock solid. She's a puppy still though, so occasionally showing some fear and hesitancy is, for me at least, not even a small concern. It sounds to me like Gandalf is also proceeding well, so celebrate that, and let this pedigree stuff go...why beat yourself up? >


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> At this point it's sort of immaterial, right?! Red flags, blue flags, flags with stripes, you're attached so it's no longer relevant.
> 
> Gandalf is showing all the promise you were hoping for...everything else is secondary. The father's temperament aside, Gandalf seems very stable and confident, so forget daddy and make your dog all he can be by believing in him, and trusting him. IME dogs react sometimes way beyond your expectations when given that trust!
> 
> ...


I'm mostly interested in the medical problems :wink2:


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> *At this point it's sort of immaterial, right?! *Red flags, blue flags, flags with stripes, you're attached so it's no longer relevant.
> 
> Gandalf is showing all the promise you were hoping for...everything else is secondary. The father's temperament aside, Gandalf seems very stable and confident, so forget daddy and make your dog all he can be by believing in him, and trusting him. IME dogs react sometimes way beyond your expectations when given that trust!
> 
> ...


NO! NO! NO! NO!

It is NEVER irrelevant. 

Nothing is being said bad about the OP's individual dog... He is clearly well loved and well regarded. 

But this forum serves as a venue of education on the breed as a whole. This isn't just the OP's thread. It will be seen be hundreds or even thousands of eyeballs. All GSD fanciers. 

Learning to vet breeders, learning to tell good ones from bad ones, is one of the *SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS* us GSD people will ever learn how to do. Pedigrees are an important tool in doing this. Things that are considered red flags are another important tool for doing this. 

SOOO much heart break comes from bad breeding practices. Dozens and dozens of temperament and health issues are genetic based. These often lead to the premature death of well loved companions and lifetimes of stress and misery. We as GSD fanciers can't let them keep doing this to us and our dogs. 

Education is key.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> NO! NO! NO! NO!
> 
> It is NEVER irrelevant.
> 
> ...



I agree, I researched this breeder for months and not a single bad thing turned up. I spent a lot of money on a SD, the health issues alone may be enough to wash him from the program. I still have my worries and concerns. The first thing I said when I talked to the breeder was..."I am looking for a healthy dog above everything". The breeders evaluation of him was also way off, she labeled him as low drive, mellow, and that he wouldn't even chase a ball. Um.... exact opposite in my opinion. I think he was mislabeled because he was ill. Of course now I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world! He is the best dog I could have ever asked for! I also have never owned a dog from show lines before, I'm curious to learn more about this. Can long haired shepherds even be shown?


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Why did you knowingly buy a puppy as a Sd prospect from a skittish sire?

I?m very happy to hear your pup isn?t skittish though


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

konathegsd said:


> Why did you knowingly buy a puppy as a Sd prospect from a skittish sire?
> 
> I?m very happy to hear your pup isn?t skittish though


We were pretty committed at that point, breeder looked good so we put down a huge non refundable deposit. Drove 7 hours to pick up the pup and the breeder wasn't even home after we agreed to meet at that day and time. Her son was home at the time and said she drove 6 hours away to get herself a new puppy! He said she would be home soon and we tried calling her but her phone was off. Since we were promised she would be home soon we played with the puppy and he seemed to have a great personality and we fell in love. Drove off to have dinner waited around a couple hours and called her son again. He said they were far away and kept making excuses... husband and I were also both very sick that day. Finally she called us and gave us a time she would be home. She ended up getting there around 2 am we met her down a scary dirt road in the middle of nowhere had no idea what was going to go down.. she was a very nice old lady and we were exhausted. Took her word for it about everything and took the pup home... 2 am and we still had a 7 hr drive home and were exhausted. We went through so much and waited so long we weren't coming home without our puppy. It was a terrible decision but hey it could have turned out a lot worse!


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> konathegsd said:
> 
> 
> > Why did you knowingly buy a puppy as a Sd prospect from a skittish sire?
> ...


I know how it goes trust me! Lol I got kona in a similar fashion, although neither sire/dam were skittish. She ended up being skittish and I had to wash her as a SD prospect. I?m doing it right this time though. After you learn about reputable breeders it?s realy easy to spot the CL BYB type dogs lol
Although kona has very minor issues with strangers I still love her to death and wouldn?t trade her for the world.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> We were pretty committed at that point, breeder looked good so we put down a huge non refundable deposit. Drove 7 hours to pick up the pup and the breeder wasn't even home after we agreed to meet at that day and time. Her son was home at the time and said she drove 6 hours away to get herself a new puppy! He said she would be home soon and we tried calling her but her phone was off. Since we were promised she would be home soon we played with the puppy and he seemed to have a great personality and we fell in love. Drove off to have dinner waited around a couple hours and called her son again. He said they were far away and kept making excuses... husband and I were also both very sick that day. Finally she called us and gave us a time she would be home. She ended up getting there around 2 am we met her down a scary dirt road in the middle of nowhere had no idea what was going to go down.. she was a very nice old lady and we were exhausted. Took her word for it about everything and took the pup home... 2 am and we still had a 7 hr drive home and were exhausted. We went through so much and waited so long we weren't coming home without our puppy. It was a terrible decision but hey it could have turned out a lot worse!


Sounds like a byb to me. No reputable breeder does that.
I would've eaten my losses with the deposit and walked away the second I knew the sire was "nervy" and my sd prospect was high energy


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > We were pretty committed at that point, breeder looked good so we put down a huge non refundable deposit. Drove 7 hours to pick up the pup and the breeder wasn't even home after we agreed to meet at that day and time. Her son was home at the time and said she drove 6 hours away to get herself a new puppy! He said she would be home soon and we tried calling her but her phone was off. Since we were promised she would be home soon we played with the puppy and he seemed to have a great personality and we fell in love. Drove off to have dinner waited around a couple hours and called her son again. He said they were far away and kept making excuses... husband and I were also both very sick that day. Finally she called us and gave us a time she would be home. She ended up getting there around 2 am we met her down a scary dirt road in the middle of nowhere had no idea what was going to go down.. she was a very nice old lady and we were exhausted. Took her word for it about everything and took the pup home... 2 am and we still had a 7 hr drive home and were exhausted. We went through so much and waited so long we weren't coming home without our puppy. It was a terrible decision but hey it could have turned out a lot worse!
> ...


did you seek a high drive pup for a prospect? I know a few others who had high drives for their prospects. I told the breeder I am looking for a medium drive for my prospect, although I would consider a higher drive dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

konathegsd said:


> did you seek a high drive pup for a prospect? I know a few others who had high drives for their prospects. I told the breeder I am looking for a medium drive for my prospect, although I would consider a higher drive dog.


I ment high energy. Sorry


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> konathegsd said:
> 
> 
> > did you seek a high drive pup for a prospect? I know a few others who had high drives for their prospects. I told the breeder I am looking for a medium drive for my prospect, although I would consider a higher drive dog.
> ...


What type of drive if you don?t mind me asking ?


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

High energy is different than high drive? Sorry I can start a new thread....or hours of Google lol


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Apex1 said:


> High energy is different than high drive? Sorry I can start a new thread....or hours of Google lol


I see it as energy = exercise needs. The desire to move, run, play, being active and busy. Where as drive is a might motivation for X (Be it prey, defense, bird, stock, hunt, food, fight, ball, what have you.)

High drive and high energy _tend_ to go hand and hand, but that isn't always the case. 

I have had a pit bull that was low energy. The dog would happily sleep for 18 hours a day. And cuddle for another 5. But he was ALSO high prey drive in that he could not be trusted around small animals. Low energy + high drive is common in some of the mastiff and bully type breeds. 

I've also seen plenty of incredibly hyper dogs that had no particularly strong drives. They just liked to run around like nuts. No interest in doing anything per se, just like they had a couple red bulls.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

konathegsd said:


> did you seek a high drive pup for a prospect? I know a few others who had high drives for their prospects. I told the breeder I am looking for a medium drive for my prospect, although I would consider a higher drive dog.


No if you scroll down and read my post I said the breeder labeled the pup as low drive, mellow and would make a good SD. She was wrong and he has a pretty decent drive. I would not call him "high energy" most the time now as he is maturing... he knows how to turn it off in the house most the time. I do like a dog with some drive though, they certainly seem more willing to work.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > We were pretty committed at that point, breeder looked good so we put down a huge non refundable deposit. Drove 7 hours to pick up the pup and the breeder wasn't even home after we agreed to meet at that day and time. Her son was home at the time and said she drove 6 hours away to get herself a new puppy! He said she would be home soon and we tried calling her but her phone was off. Since we were promised she would be home soon we played with the puppy and he seemed to have a great personality and we fell in love. Drove off to have dinner waited around a couple hours and called her son again. He said they were far away and kept making excuses... husband and I were also both very sick that day. Finally she called us and gave us a time she would be home. She ended up getting there around 2 am we met her down a scary dirt road in the middle of nowhere had no idea what was going to go down.. she was a very nice old lady and we were exhausted. Took her word for it about everything and took the pup home... 2 am and we still had a 7 hr drive home and were exhausted. We went through so much and waited so long we weren't coming home without our puppy. It was a terrible decision but hey it could have turned out a lot worse!
> ...


I wouldn't say he's high energy, he just has decent drive. He's not "low energy" either though. My family says he's mellow when they come over but they don't live with him 24/7. He greets nicely at the door and then goes takes a nap lol. Also at the time we didn't realize he was sick, so yeah he looked pretty low energy low drive and laid back. We had already invested so much time and energy, maybe the right thing would have been to walk away. Besides his health issues though I think it turned out pretty well despite it all. He's got a lot of the things I was looking for. But a long way to go because of the health issues. If he's got back elbows and hips in his lineage I can't see this working out well.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> Showlines.
> 
> There are some soft performance titles on few dogs in there, Companion Dog, Rally Novice, and Low level herding - Junior herding and herding instinct tests. Lots of CGCs... I personally wouldn't trust any of these titles as a testament to a dog's working abilities. All beginner level stuff that doesn't really put much pressure on the dog. This breeder's passion clearly is in the show ring with the occasional extra curricular for funzies.
> 
> ...


This is very disappointing to hear. That the father was skittish and this dog was bought as a service dog prospect.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> voodoolamb said:
> 
> 
> > Showlines.
> ...


The father is the core of her breeding program. It isn't too disappointing for me, he isn't a skiddish pup. You couldn't find a pup with more rock solid nerves than this guy! He is awesome, 9 months old now and never seen him afraid of anything. When he was 4 months old we ran into a friend of mine the pup had never met on a walk. It was dark out and foggy, my friend thought it'd be funny to sneak up on my pup and act aggressive and scary! Can you imagine my shock when my little 4 month old pup jumped in front of me and gave a commanding bark instead of running away afraid! After I told him it's okay he greeted my friend just like he would any other strange a big hearty tail wag


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'm glad he doesn't seem skittish to you...

I'm still very disappointed to hear that A) a skittish dog who is afraid to go near friendly people is being bred at all and B) the breeder sold a pup of his to someone wanting a service dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I thought from a previous post that Gandalf is an ESA because he can fly in cabin, but not a service dog? My understanding is these are two quite different things with different levels of public access, and requirements- that is, a service dog does something in response to a disability (guide dog, seizure alert), while an ESA provides support just by being there?


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> I thought from a previous post that Gandalf is an ESA because he can fly in cabin, but not a service dog? My understanding is these are two quite different things with different levels of public access, and requirements- that is, a service dog does something in response to a disability (guide dog, seizure alert), while an ESA provides support just by being there?


Yes you are absolutely correct. He is an ESA at the moment (two seperate conditions) still training his public access ability and his task needs more work. He is a SDiT right now at only 9 months, it will be many more months before I feel he will be fully trained as a SD if he does not get washed by then due to medical issues or a temperament problem that's unfixable that could potentially arise. I bothered getting the ESA documents because we lived in an awful apartment at the time and he wasn't service dog ready.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Here is a weird question, can you have a sire who comes from good breeding but wasn't socialized produce confident and viable pups? I've talked to many of the owners of my dogs siblings and their pups don't seem to have any skiddishness either. The one pup was even mauled by another dog and despite that is not dog reactive still. Overall I've been very impressed with my guy... we have certainly had some set backs but everyday he is showing growing maturity and intelligence to learn and think through the situation. I had posted another thread the other day relating to recalls because he blew me off to chase a poodle, yesterday the neighbors poodle snuck in my yard when I was letting Gandalf out to take him for a ride. Gandalf completely listened to my recall this time and ignored the poodle! After a little work around distraction I see huge improvements. I also tested him at a crowded fair with all sorts of craziness and he blew my expectations. He is becoming a huge help to me when I need him most. Everyone that meets him is impressed with how well trained he is and how calm and gentle, I am harder on him than anyone. I feel very lucky and blessed to have ended up with such a great dog. However I am worried about the hips and elbows not being verified, can anyone else confirm this? How do his parents hip and elbows look? I'm new to reading all this, the breeder said they were excellent but she has obviously lied about other things. I feel like this a make or break in the SD world, I cannot ask a not structurally sound dog to work. I regret not doing more research first... we got very lucky with my last SD, did minimal research and ended up with a reputable breeder and an amazing dog. That breeder no longer breeds dogs which was why I went searching for a new one.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

In simple, I'm not a breeder, terms. Yes, you can have a male that doesn't produce himself good or bad. Matched to an excellent female, maybe you get lucky, matched to the wrong female, odds aren't with you. In general, the weakness's in their temperament are going to show somewhere. Maybe just not in what you're looking to do.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> ... I researched this breeder for months and not a single bad thing turned up.



@GandalfTheSheperd did you leave a review online regarding your experience with this breeder? Could save someone else ...


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'm glad he doesn't seem skittish to you...
> 
> I'm still very disappointed to hear that A) a skittish dog who is afraid to go near friendly people is being bred at all and B) the breeder sold a pup of his to someone wanting a service dog.


Yes. This. 

It's absolutely devastating. 

Makes me so angry and sad.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Here is a weird question, can you have a sire who comes from good breeding but wasn't socialized produce confident and viable pups?


Yes, but the chances of it happening aren't something I would bet the farm on. Like Steve said, it's going to pop up in the program somewhere. 

Also... his socialization does NOT change his genetics. The vast majority of skittish dogs are skittish because they have genetically weak nerves. Bad dogs pop up in good breedings all the time. 



> I've talked to many of the owners of my dogs siblings and their pups don't seem to have any skiddishness either.


Yet... 

Not to be debbie downer or anything, but this litter is not done maturing. These pups all still need to get through their adolescent fear imprint period(s). It is not unheard of for things to "fall apart" so to speak at this time. I have known people who have had happy pups that hit a teen fear imprint period and just... well never seem to come out of it. 

Also... I believe that Gandalf's litter is the very first one by this sire. You guys are the "test litter" so to speak. (As an aside... yeah. Doubly not impressed this sire has become the *core* of your breeder's program before his first litter is even a year old yet)




> However I am worried about the hips and elbows not being verified, can anyone else confirm this? How do his parents hip and elbows look? I'm new to reading all this, the breeder said they were excellent but she has obviously lied about other things. I feel like this a make or break in the SD world, I cannot ask a not structurally sound dog to work.


What I would do is get some prelims done on gandalf, if they look good, continue with training. Then have him rechecked after his growth plates close. That way you will know for sure if he is sound for the work you plan.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Voodoo, had that happen. Pup was fine in the fall of the year I took her home: kissing babies in strollers, and watching heavy equipment work without being bothered by the noise. She even tolerate hunters shooting off high caliber rifles in the fall hunting season without showing any fear.

The next spring, she was scared of EVERYTHING. When I took her to training class, she hid under my chair, and wouldn't even take high value treats from me, like cooked chicken and steak. She was scared of men, children, bicycles, traffic, and even small dogs. 

I had hoped to use her as a service dog (hearing impairment) but wound up re-homing her to a pet home.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Yes, but the chances of it happening aren't something I would bet the farm on. Like Steve said, it's going to pop up in the program somewhere.
> 
> Also... his socialization does NOT change his genetics. The vast majority of skittish dogs are skittish because they have genetically weak nerves. Bad dogs pop up in good breedings all the time.
> 
> ...



Yeah I'm not happy either after I told her about all the allergies IBD and health issues Gandalf had she blindly went and bred the sire again and plans on breeding the sire to the same dam in the future. All the vets we met with the first thing they said was those dogs should never be bred again. I've never done X rays on a dog before, can you get them done without putting him under? I wasn't planning on neutering him until later in life since early neuter increases the risk of hemangiosarcoma. His elbows already look weird to me, maybe its because he is still skinny but they are super bony and prominent. Don't remember my old dogs looking quite like that. Maybe it is just the long fur throwing me off. Some good news the only holistic vet and vet for that matter I trust took him on as a new patient, she had a waiting list for many years and said she wouldn't but called us back today. He goes in the first week of Jan. interested to see what she says... she noticed some limited range in my old boys hips when he was younger.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Voodoo, had that happen. Pup was fine in the fall of the year I took her home: kissing babies in strollers, and watching heavy equipment work without being bothered by the noise. She even tolerate hunters shooting off high caliber rifles in the fall hunting season without showing any fear.
> 
> The next spring, she was scared of EVERYTHING. When I took her to training class, she hid under my chair, and wouldn't even take high value treats from me, like cooked chicken and steak. She was scared of men, children, bicycles, traffic, and even small dogs.
> 
> I had hoped to use her as a service dog (hearing impairment) but wound up re-homing her to a pet home.


Wow nothing you can think of triggered it? That is a little nerve wracking. Gandalf tolerates gunshots great too, where we hike theres a shooting range and he doesn't even flinch. Do you remember what age this happened? I don't think I would have the heart to rehome him, he is already my best bud and a great hiking partner.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

She was about 7 months when this happened. And no, I can't think of any triggers. Dog was not a pure GSD, though. There was possibly some wolf blood, which might have explained the skittishness.

My theory is the wolf pup is in the den until about this age, so the mom is responsible for protecting it. I am guessing 7 months is the age where the pup might have to get more cautious of new/strange things, as it learns to fend for itself. 

The breeder of these dogs did acknowledge that the went into 'fear periods' as they grew up. That's something that was new to me, as I've never had it happen with a GSD.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> She was about 7 months when this happened. And no, I can't think of any triggers. Dog was not a pure GSD, though. There was possibly some wolf blood, which might have explained the skittishness.
> 
> My theory is the wolf pup is in the den until about this age, so the mom is responsible for protecting it. I am guessing 7 months is the age where the pup might have to get more cautious of new/strange things, as it learns to fend for itself.
> 
> The breeder of these dogs did acknowledge that the went into 'fear periods' as they grew up. That's something that was new to me, as I've never had it happen with a GSD.


I had a wolf dog growing up, he definitely hit some fear stages more so than our GSDs. We always had to watch him a bit closer with strangers but was great with us kids.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Wow nothing you can think of triggered it? That is a little nerve wracking. Gandalf tolerates gunshots great too, where we hike theres a shooting range and he doesn't even flinch. Do you remember what age this happened? I don't think I would have the heart to rehome him, he is already my best bud and a great hiking partner.


Just my 2c but don't borrow trouble. Your dog seems social and stable...don't worry about it until if/when he does otherwise.

My dog had some weirdness in the middle adolescence that seems to have resolved. My dog seemed social as a youngster, had a few awkward moments as a "teen" that we just worked through and now that he is grown up has been great.


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## Kyfitchic (Jan 30, 2018)

How much do the parents affect the offspring’s aptitude for tracking/protection work?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A lot, but a good trainer can improve in these areas at times.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Here is a weird question, can you have a sire who comes from good breeding but wasn't socialized produce confident and viable pups? I've talked to many of the owners of my dogs siblings and their pups don't seem to have any skiddishness either. The one pup was even mauled by another dog and despite that is not dog reactive still. Overall I've been very impressed with my guy... we have certainly had some set backs but everyday he is showing growing maturity and intelligence to learn and think through the situation. I had posted another thread the other day relating to recalls because he blew me off to chase a poodle, yesterday the neighbors poodle snuck in my yard when I was letting Gandalf out to take him for a ride. Gandalf completely listened to my recall this time and ignored the poodle! After a little work around distraction I see huge improvements. I also tested him at a crowded fair with all sorts of craziness and he blew my expectations. He is becoming a huge help to me when I need him most. Everyone that meets him is impressed with how well trained he is and how calm and gentle, I am harder on him than anyone. I feel very lucky and blessed to have ended up with such a great dog. However I am worried about the hips and elbows not being verified, can anyone else confirm this? How do his parents hip and elbows look? I'm new to reading all this, the breeder said they were excellent but she has obviously lied about other things. I feel like this a make or break in the SD world, I cannot ask a not structurally sound dog to work. I regret not doing more research first... we got very lucky with my last SD, did minimal research and ended up with a reputable breeder and an amazing dog. That breeder no longer breeds dogs which was why I went searching for a new one.


Gandalf, in my opinion the answer to your question is yes. I have seen very sound genetic dogs that because of environmental or socialization deprivation, appeared unsure in some instances, yet produce very sound dogs when bred. But I also agree with Steve that often the compatibility of the male to female will have huge influence in showing good of a dog( in their progeny) and showing bad in a dog.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> However I am worried about the hips and elbows not being verified, can anyone else confirm this?


Never saw an answer to this. Tests results submitted to OFA for Gandalf’s sire and dam can both be found on the OFA website. 

Foxhunts Lil Miss Charmer
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1840170
DM normal by parentage (click on sire/dam on Charms OFA page)

Herr Foxhunt Vom Sutumer Grund
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?appnum=1853624


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

The results have been lied about. A sibling to Gandalf just tested positive for the MDR1 gene when it should have been cleared by lineage. Test was sent to Washington state university. I am unsure whether the breeder lied intentionally or didn't know about her import Mister and was lied to herself. Can any of the other things be faked? Vet said Gandalfs hips looked bad as well, we are waiting until he is older to confirm....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> The results have been lied about. A a sibling to Gandalf just tested positive for the MDR1 gene when it should have been cleared by lineage. I am unsure whether the breeder lied intentionally or didn't know about her import Mister and was lied to herself. Can any of the other things be faked? Vet said Gandalfs hips looked bad as well, we are waiting until he is older to confirm....


Really sorry to hear this. Can you post images for his hips? Maybe somebody can give you better input.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > The results have been lied about. A a sibling to Gandalf just tested positive for the MDR1 gene when it should have been cleared by lineage. I am unsure whether the breeder lied intentionally or didn't know about her import Mister and was lied to herself. Can any of the other things be faked? Vet said Gandalfs hips looked bad as well, we are waiting until he is older to confirm....
> ...


I have no image of the hips yet, just a speculative opinion based off of a vet I trust. She did a physical examination and made note and wanted to see the pedigree and was shocked with the parents rating. I am worried since I already know now one thing wasn't the truth. Probably won't get the hips done until he's 2? I don't plan on neutering so it hasn't been done already.... he just turned a year old. His hips look fine to me personally, he does a lot of low impact activity, waking & swimming. With this new knowledge I am being extra cautious, I figure it can't hurt. I don't notice any stiffness or unusual gait. Behaviorally he is the perfect dog.. just passed his CGC and loving life. His siblings became skiddish over the past few months and took after the sire, don't like people and barley tolerate their owners petting them. I guess we were one of the lucky ones...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I have no image of the hips yet, just a speculative opinion based off of a vet I trust. She did a physical examination and made note and wanted to see the pedigree and was shocked with the parents rating. I am worried since I already know now one thing wasn't the truth. Probably won't get the hips done until he's 2? I don't plan on neutering so it hasn't been done already.... he just turned a year old. His hips look fine to me personally, he does a lot of low impact activity, waking & swimming. With this new knowledge I am being extra cautious, I figure it can't hurt. I don't notice any stiffness or unusual gait. Behaviorally he is the perfect dog.. just passed his CGC and loving life. His siblings became skiddish over the past few months and took after the sire, don't like people and barley tolerate their owners petting them. I guess we were one of the lucky ones...


Poor boy, he has had his share of problems. Those are some really nice pics. Looks like he enjoys his little friend.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If I were you, I would get a prelim OF A done. Gandalf is old enough that you would get a reasonable answer.


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