# Colarado co. selling untrained SDs??



## ILGHAUS

Heidi Hemmat Investigative Reporter
KDVR 
Dever, CO

Colorado company accused of selling untrained service dogs

Quotes from the newpaper article:

_Tina Rivero owns “Noelle’s Dogs Four Hope,” in Colorado Springs. She sells peanut-sniffing dogs and seizure response dogs across the country._ ...

_She did agree to have her handlers demonstrate her dog’s skills. Seizure dog, Alice, would not fetch medicine even when it was thrown on the ground like a ball. 

And then there’s Gunner, a peanut-sniffing dog that could not locate the peanut products strategically throughout a room. ..._

_There is no regulation on service dog companies, so experts say you should do your homework, talk to other service dog owners and get the training credentials of the person who will teach your dog.
_

_http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-colorado-company-accused-of-se-110910,0,7407967.story_



http://www.noellesangeldogs.org/index.html


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## KZoppa

finally she's getting bad press. She's been doing this for years. Been in and out of the news for the last couple years for the same problems. only now instead of snippets, she's getting a full segment of bad press. I'm sorry, if i'm spending 7K on a dog thats supposed to do a specific task or a set of tasks, they had BETTER do it!!!


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## ILGHAUS

> She did agree to have her handlers demonstrate her dog’s skills. Seizure dog, Alice, would not fetch medicine even when it was thrown on the ground like a ball.


For $7,000. you would at least expect the dog to do a nice "fetch". 

The most that I ever received for working with a SDIT on retrieving an item was the grateful handler gave me a gallon of fresh milk from his small herd and told me to come back anytime for some more. Guess a dog that can not only retrieve but also place the item in the handler's lap should be then considered a $10,000. dog.  Humm.... I should have held out for a gallon of chocolate milk.


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## ILGHAUS

A report from a 2nd source /quote:

In Your Corner 4
Scott Hines
Thursday November 11

So far...our investigation has turned up complaints in Colorado, California, and Nevada. The family from Nevada even sent its peanut sniffing service dog back to Rivero after it ate peanuts...putting their allergic child at risk. To this point...Rivero has stayed mum on the matter... refusing to comment specifically on any of the complaints. She told a reporter with our sister station in Denver that she's wrongly accused and ALL of her service dogs are properly trained...with the exception of those dogs that are still in training...like the Matlack's dog. Trust me...this story is far from over.

In Your Corner 4


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## ILGHAUS

http://www.theledger.com/article/20100805/NEWS/8055058
By Gary White
THE LEDGER

Published: Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:28 a.m. 
Last Modified: Thursday, August 5, 2010 at 12:28 a.m. 

Gary White can be reached at [email protected] or at 863-802-7518. 
This story appeared in print on page A1
All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.



> And as for my daughters name or using any of her info....it may have been public, but the places that used the stories both had PERMISSION to say what they said...this forum however...does NOT.


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## Debbicia

*Tabitha Cooke and her seizure alert dog*

*OK...first and foremost...whoever felt the need to post ANYTHING about my MINOR daughter without consent needs to remove it IMMEDIATELY before I contact an attorney.* 
Second...maybe you should do a bit more checking into things before jumping to conclusions about this company or their dogs.
Yes...my daughter is Tabitha Cooke. Yes...she received a dog (puppy) from Noelle's Dogs four Hope. Anything you felt the need to assume and therefore bash this company about is wrong or missing pertinent information. :smirk:
You want to know???? Here goes. Tabitha received Kiara (yes....it's a Disney name and my daughter absolutely loved the fact that she was able to pick the name from Disney names) back in October. Kiara was partially obedience trained....she was and is still a puppy. She was 3 months old when we got her. Was she a service dog? Nope...not yet.....Did she alert to Tab's seizures when we got her??? Nope...but has not only alerted to Tab's but to another man's seizures that she didn't even know. Did Noelle's train her for that??? Nope...and neither did we. NO company can train a dog to EVER do that. They (any company) cannot guarantee that the service dog that is paired with the person will even learn to do it. It's got nothing to do with the breed...it's all up to the dog. We are thrilled that Kiara has begun alerting at such an early age. Does that make her a service dog???? Still nope. But she will be making another trip back to Colorado for her service dog training. Then....and ONLY THEN....will she be a service dog....and since she is also alerting...she will have earned the title of SAD. If she was a German Shepherd she still may not ever alert.
The people that are sooooo unhappy with their dogs...for some strange reason thought that their puppy (which the reason they are sent as puppies is so they can have a stronger bond with their person...which can hopefully bring about a better chance of seizure alerting) was already a service dog which is completely ludicrous. Did they not read ANYTHING that they signed????? I think the issue here is that these unhappy people just weren't into the whole puppy thing....and used the BS as an excuse to bail. Can a puppy that is GOING to be trained as a peanut sniffing dog, already sniff them out? Of course not. Will it EAT a peanut??? Of course. It's a puppy. They will eat ANYTHING that is food. Since it hasn't been taught that peanuts are bad...why would it NOT eat it??? Is there anyone out there with half a brain to see this??? 
Oh...and you stated the different dogs Tab had her choice of...you *quoted *from the newspaper...and conveniently left out the part where she was also offered a GERMAN SHEPHERD....but she didn't choose that breed after just dealing with the heartbreak of a different organization making promises...straight to HER...not to me....and then breaking ALL of those promises to my child. 
As for the $7500....first of all, you do get a choice....if you don't want to train the PUPPY using the training workbook, than they will do it. If you choose, however, to do it yourself, than $1000 is knocked off the $7500 bringing it to $6500...which if you did ANY homework before posting your BS you would know is A LOT less expensive than the other places. I found the cheapest other one at about $18,000. And I know one person who got their dog from that place and it wasn't even fixed...so they had a female dog supposedly doing it's service dog thing...while in heat...and everyone knows that no matter how well trained a dog is....if it's in heat and a male approaches...all training goes out the window. 
I've also encountered places where the dogs went for $25,000-$32,000. I did come across one place that offered them free...as long as you were willing to get rid of any other animals that you may have and sign an agreement to NEVER have any. 
I'm sorry....I am very happy with Noelle's Angel Dogs Four Hope. I am also happy with both Tina and Noelle Rivero. They have ALWAYS been available to answer any questions that Tabbee or I have had and have helped us through any rough puppy spots. It is an awesome company and family that has kept their word on everything they said...which is more than I can say about a different one that we dealt with. :smirk:
Kiara and Tabbee are both bonding very well and Kiara will be going away for a bit for her training....we are both going to miss her terribly..but have every bit of faith that when she comes back to us she will be a full fledged service/seizure alert dog. Until then....she is Tabitha's baby....and she is loved for what she is. A service dog/_puppy_ *IN TRAINING*!!!!! 

And for the record I am forwarding this reply as well as the 
whole thread to Noelle's Dog's Four Hopes attorney's.​


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## Dr89

There is a thousand things wrong with the above post, so much that I don't know where to begin. 

I guess I'll just take the easy route and say that a 3 month old goldendoodle isn't a service dog (a goldendoodle isn't even a breed, so wherever she got it just contributed to the onslaught of BYB's and the downfall of so many breeds, but thats a whole other topic), and I have no idea why you would pay that amount of money for one. You could rescue a GSD, lab, golden, or mix of some kind for like 75 bucks, and then take it to a good trainer, or even board it, for around 500 bucks, give or take...and have like 3 times the dog?

As for mentioning you're daughters name, perhaps it wasn't necessary, but if it was in the public press then it definitely wasn't illegal...so I don't know what you're attorney has to do with anything.


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## Debbicia

Did you not read what I wrote??? She isn't a service dog. She will BE a service dog. She is in training....I don't have an issue with it...why do you? And as for my daughters name or using any of her info....it may have been public, but the places that used the stories both had PERMISSION to say what they said...this forum however...does NOT. I will not have anything negative associated with her name. You did NOT contact me for permission to use it, it was NOT approved by me. Remove it.


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## krystyne73

actually once you have consented to any publication which is internet accessible (public record) it can therefore be used for reproduction.


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## Debbicia

As for her breed...why don't you do a little reading on them before making your negative comments. She is the pup of a purebred standard poodle and a purebred golden retriever which results in an F1 Goldendoodle.
I just don't get why you would make such comments without doing any research at all.


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## blehmannwa

Debbicia,
Your answer bumped a 4 month old thread into active topics ensuring that more people would read it. And a little googling shows that Noelle's dogs recently lost a case involving a peanut allergy.
Why dredge this up?


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## krystyne73

blehmannwa said:


> Debbicia,
> Your answer bumped a 4 month old thread into active topics ensuring that more people would read it. And a little googling shows that Noelle's dogs recently lost a case involving a peanut allergy.
> Why dredge this up?


Ugh...I didn't see the date, thanks for the heads up.


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## KZoppa

it doesnt matter what the dogs mother was or what the father was. a golden doodle is still a mutt. Its still a mixed breed dog. As stated previously, you've also ensured more people will see this thread.


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## Lin

Dr89 said:


> and I have no idea why you would pay that amount of money for one. You could rescue a GSD, lab, golden, or mix of some kind for like 75 bucks, and then take it to a good trainer, or even board it, for around 500 bucks, give or take...and have like 3 times the dog?


Its not that easy. My current service dog was a rescue dog, but I was insanely lucky. It is not easy being a SD and many well bred dogs that are bred specifically for service work wash out and never make it through. On top of temperament, trainability, etc the dog also has to be very healthy. For a GSD, hips and elbows done is a MUST. And it costs much more than $500 to train a service dog, and approximately 1.5-2 years of training. I've spent around $2k on Tessa's training. 

You can definitely find an appropriate dog in rescue to be a service dog... But its very hard and I appreciate how lucky I was.


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## Lin

KZoppa said:


> it doesnt matter what the dogs mother was or what the father was. a golden doodle is still a mutt. Its still a mixed breed dog.


Worth repeating. The goldendoodle is a cutesy name given to a mutt by combining the parents names. There is no breed standard, goal, or purpose other than money. The original idea was with purpose, to breed a service dog with lower amounts of dander yet that purpose failed because when you mix 2 breeds you don't get to choose which traits are passed on. And in a F1, or even F2 F3 F4 crossing... Traits are still all over the place. Come back when someones written up a breed standard and actually started trying to achieve something by putting the dogs together, and preferably came up with a new breed name instead of a ridiculous portmanteau.


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## 2gsdogs

*REPLY To these Post on NDFH*

First and formost, Whom every posted this original comment was wrong to do so with out the permission of the parent. 
Second no one realizes the damage that they are causeing a child and the their ability to use their service dog IN TRAINING out in public and in the schools.
Third: let ME introduce myself.  I AM the Director of Training for Noelle's Dog Four Hope and if you did your research on me you would find that I have 2 GSDs (not mixes! purebreeds) so to say that they do not use GSDs then you are not correct. I have been training dogs for over 28 years, I was an Animal Welfare Officer for several years, currently an AKC Evaluator, approved Service Dog Trainer through 2 different service dog organizations (that I provide proof to the people that I train their dogs), National Certified Dog Trainer, and Certified Basic Obedience, and Advanced Obedience Trainer. If you are intrested I have the ceritfications in my training faclity and anyone who wants to see them can stop by.

As the director of training I require all of the dogs to pass a basic obedience test, CGC, Public Access Test, and a detailed specility test for either seizures, or allergy testing.:smirk: I video all of these test!

And if you know of any resuce organizations that will work with us as a service dog organization then feel free to send them my way. I have contacted personally several and the comments that I have gotten is that they want their dogs to just be pets. I am tired of trying to get them to work with us so I have stopped. Here is my email, [email protected]. 

There are two sides to every story. Here is the the updated info on the person that was quoted in the negative story:
1. the dog in OK, NDFH emailed and called several times to have the person return the dog, No Reply from that person, so the person took to the dog to the local shelter, and the shelter was not told that it belonged to NDFH, the dog was EUTHANIZED shortly after intake. NDFH's attorney is working on this case. I personally investigated and got this information.



I ask that you use caution when speaking about people and their service dogs.


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## Lin

2gsdogs said:


> Second no one realizes the damage that they are causeing a child and the their ability to use their service dog IN TRAINING out in public and in the schools.


You don't use a service dog in training, you TRAIN a service dog in training. And they have no business being in the schools when not accompanied by their trainer. If they were at the level of training to make it appropriate, they would be service dogs and not service dogs in training. 

I'm quite scared that a self proclaimed service dog trainer would be arguing a child should have the ability to take a dog in training to school. In many cases I disagree that child should take a service dog to school, and in the cases where I agree its best for the child it only makes their fight even harder when people try to take dogs that aren't ready.


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## Dr89

Debbicia said:


> Did you not read what I wrote??? She isn't a service dog. She will BE a service dog. She is in training....I don't have an issue with it...why do you? And as for my daughters name or using any of her info....it may have been public, but the places that used the stories both had PERMISSION to say what they said...this forum however...does NOT. I will not have anything negative associated with her name. You did NOT contact me for permission to use it, it was NOT approved by me. Remove it.


I don't have an issue with you, I have an issue with the lady making money in a very, very unscrupulous manner. There is absolutely NO reason you needed to pay that kind of price for such a dog, trained or not. 

She should have referred you to a good breeder, or a rescue with a worthy dog, and made no money off the dog itself, and then let you bring it back for service dog training for a price closer to the $500-$1000 range.

^^^ that isn't even the optimal way to do it, but leaps and bounds better than what she is doing.

As for the goldendoodle, I don't need to research it--mixing two purebred dogs still results in a mutt with no standard temperament or predictable outcome, which is not ideal when searching for a service dog, and certainly not for $6500. 

Again--I don't have a problem with you at all and if this decision satisfies you then I wish you well. But it doesn't negate the fact that what this lady is doing is UNETHICAL, and is hurting people and animals.


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## 2gsdogs

*NDFH Director of Training*

FYI 1 of my GSD's is compleating her training for scent work of peanuts, and she on 3/19/11 alerted on seizure with a total stranger, that works at ATT store in CO Springs. My sister was there to witness it. She also has been known to notify a close friend of mine of her low blood pressure and wake her up when she passes out. Her trained task include but not limited to turning on lights, opening doors, getting meds, hitting a 911 button, finding peanuts among other foods on the floor without being told to search, or having me point my finger at the location of the peanuts.

My other GSD is only 9 months and is still in training for his basic obedience test to be taken on 4/1/11, and working on his socialization to the public and other animals.


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## KZoppa

Lin said:


> You don't use a service dog in training, you TRAIN a service dog in training. And they have no business being in the schools when not accompanied by their trainer. If they were at the level of training to make it appropriate, they would be service dogs and not service dogs in training.
> 
> I'm quite scared that a self proclaimed service dog trainer would be arguing a child should have the ability to take a dog in training to school. In many cases I disagree that child should take a service dog to school, and in the cases where I agree its best for the child it only makes their fight even harder when people try to take dogs that aren't ready.


 
:thumbup:


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## Lin

Dr89 said:


> and then let you bring it back for service dog training for a price closer to the $500-$1000 range.


:spittingcoffee: Sorry, but please let me know if you find a reputable service dog trainer in that price range!

Why are people discussing the organization using German Shepherds? No one said they didn't, in fact in a quote it says someone was offered a GSD as one of the breeds. So why does that matter? Its not relevant. 

2gsdogs- are these dogs YOURS or just in training with you? Since a service dog isn't a service dog unless its paired with a disabled handler.


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## Dr89

Lin said:


> Its not that easy. My current service dog was a rescue dog, but I was insanely lucky. It is not easy being a SD and many well bred dogs that are bred specifically for service work wash out and never make it through. On top of temperament, trainability, etc the dog also has to be very healthy. For a GSD, hips and elbows done is a MUST. And it costs much more than $500 to train a service dog, and approximately 1.5-2 years of training. I've spent around $2k on Tessa's training.
> 
> You can definitely find an appropriate dog in rescue to be a service dog... But its very hard and I appreciate how lucky I was.


Sorry if I appeared to water this down to much, but I wasn't trying to suggest this is the way to go about it, I was just trying to get across that the method originally posted was not the optimal way to operate.

And as you say, 1.5-2 years to become a service dog, the report says the dogs go back for training for 3-5 months -- so thank you for clarifying that that is not an appropriate amount of time. 

As for the price, that was just a guess because around here service dogs can be attained through non-profit organizations for little to no money, depends on your income and your use for the dog. I shouldn't have generalized this to all service dogs, but I think it's irrelevant to the point I was _trying_ to make--albeit a little unclear it seems. 

I mentioned rescues because thats what nearly all the service dogs in my area are -- but even a reputable breeder with outstanding progeny and working dogs would cost considerably less than $7500


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## 2gsdogs

do you go to work for FREE? those who go to college make upward of a million dollars more then those who just complete high school. You pay a DR that specializes in something more money then the one that is just a general practioner. Those who take the extra time and put out the money required to get the extra degrees or certifications ought to get paid for it. 

If you take the amount of time for someone to train a service dog (aprox 250 hrs) and add the extras, vet, equipment pd by the company, and finding a qualified dog trainer (one that has gone the extra mile to prove that they know how to propperly train a service dog speciality) you end up loosing money after 1.5 years to 2 yrs.

I know from personal experience that it is very VERY easy to cause damage to a dog that is in training for service work. I have been rehabing a dog for almost 2 years to get her back to where she used to be. 
Find a trainer and then do your resarch on that person. 

NDFH is not ripping people off she has a daughter that has Epilepsy and I can tell that you don't know the cost of having a child with something that can kill her in the night. NDFH is saving lives one dog at a time.


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## 2gsdogs

actually you are wrong. A trainer is someone who can train the dog for service work, with the end result being that the dog works for someone who has disabilities.

I do have allergies that require the dog to work for me.
I did not train her for the other things that she is doing.


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## Dr89

2gsdogs said:


> do you go to work for FREE? those who go to college make upward of a million dollars more then those who just complete high school. You pay a DR that specializes in something more money then the one that is just a general practioner. Those who take the extra time and put out the money required to get the extra degrees or certifications ought to get paid for it.
> 
> If you take the amount of time for someone to train a service dog (aprox 250 hrs) and add the extras, vet, equipment pd by the company, and finding a qualified dog trainer (one that has gone the extra mile to prove that they know how to propperly train a service dog speciality) you end up loosing money after 1.5 years to 2 yrs.
> 
> I know from personal experience that it is very VERY easy to cause damage to a dog that is in training for service work. I have been rehabing a dog for almost 2 years to get her back to where she used to be.
> Find a trainer and then do your resarch on that person.
> 
> NDFH is not ripping people off she has a daughter that has Epilepsy and I can tell that you don't know the cost of having a child with something that can kill her in the night. NDFH is saving lives one dog at a time.


Thanks for shedding more light on this topic, as all we had to go by was the original posts as well as the attached article.

However, I must say that usually organizations don't get bad press for nothing. And repeatedly getting bad press that's just a result of misunderstandings, etc, is very unlikely.


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## KZoppa

are you seriously here because you're arguing a 4 month old thread? i mean really? This is an old debate and honestly not relevant any longer IMO.


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## ILGHAUS

> *OK...first and foremost...whoever felt the need to post ANYTHING about my MINOR daughter without consent needs to remove it IMMEDIATELY before I contact an attorney.*


The person who mentioned the name was Gary White of The Ledger and now it seems the mother and the trainer.


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## KZoppa

Hey IGLHAUS, can you just close this thread?


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## Lin

Dr89 said:


> As for the price, that was just a guess because around here service dogs can be attained through non-profit organizations for little to no money, depends on your income and your use for the dog. I shouldn't have generalized this to all service dogs, but I think it's irrelevant to the point I was _trying_ to make--albeit a little unclear it seems.


There are a lot of non profit organizations, but just because they're non profit doesn't mean the dogs training wasn't expensive. It takes a lot of money in fundraising and donations or volunteers etc. My local organization utilizes the prison system to train the dogs. However with the dogs being at no or little cost, there are frequently waiting lists in the years range so many people turn to outright purchase, owner training, or self fundraising. 



2gsdogs said:


> actually you are wrong. A trainer is someone who can train the dog for service work, with the end result being that the dog works for someone who has disabilities.
> 
> I do have allergies that require the dog to work for me.
> I did not train her for the other things that she is doing.


If that was in response to me, you didn't answer my question. You talked about your dogs tasks, so I asked if the dogs were yours or in training with you. No I was not wrong, a service dog is only a service dog when its paired with a disabled handler. I'll assume what you are trying to say is you are disabled and your dog is an alert dog. 

The ADA defines a service dog as


> any guide dog, signal dog or other animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks *for the benefit of an individual with a disability*


 with the key part being for the benefit of an individual with a disability, because it doesn't matter how many service tasks a dog knows if the handler is disabled its just a well trained animal and not a service dog.


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## Dr89

KZoppa said:


> are you seriously here because you're arguing a 4 month old thread? i mean really? This is an old debate and honestly not relevant any longer IMO.


I don't know how it's any less relevant now than it was then?? It clearly didn't get any kind of attention until now. 

I think Lin has some great insights and with the trainer of these dogs now on here I'd like to know if the bad press was in fact deserved or if it was unwarranted. The article seems pretty clear...

And for starters letting the girl choose her dog seems like a red flag -- don't even breeders try to pair pups with appropriate owners, let alone a dog who may have the handler's life as it's responsibility?

Even offering "Goldendoodles" is another red flag...I think there's plenty of relevance here, personally!


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## 2gsdogs

Thank you for your post.
Most people remember the bad things and forget the good things that people do.


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## KZoppa

Dr89 said:


> I don't know how it's any less relevant now than it was then?? It clearly didn't get any kind of attention until now.
> 
> I think Lin has some great insights and with the trainer of these dogs now on here I'd like to know if the bad press was in fact deserved or if it was unwarranted. The article seems pretty clear...
> 
> And for starters letting the girl choose her dog seems like a red flag -- don't even breeders try to pair pups with appropriate owners, let alone a dog who may have the handler's life as it's responsibility?
> 
> Even offering "Goldendoodles" is another red flag...I think there's plenty of relevance here, personally!


 
i agree with you on the red flags. 

as far as being relevant, like i said IMO i dont think it is any longer unless the company is once again getting bad press. The thing i find most interesting about this is SUDDENLY someone got huffy about it and now we have two members on the board, NEW members who probably joined solely because of this thread. It may just be me but i find it strange that its NOW an issue despite the article being publicly accessible. I consider Lin to be our resident SD expert and she has my extreme respect, especially for training her own dogs to help. And how do we honestly KNOW the trainer for the company is this person? They havent honestly been here long enough for anyone to be able to get to know them so until then, i dont buy it. But thats me.


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## Lin

KZoppa said:


> I consider Lin to be our resident SD expert and she has my extreme respect, especially for training her own dogs to help.


Awww Thanks! :blush:

ILGHAUS is the real expert though. I just happen to be online and post faster than her a lot of the time! And many of the members that supported me and helped me learn don't post here any longer. A few years back I went through and read every thread in this section, and sent pms to ILGHAUS and every service dog user that posted here!


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## blehmannwa

I find this whole thread suspicious. As though someone is trying to stir something up. I'm also troubled by some of the spelling and grammar errors--"purebreed" vs, purebred for example.


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## KZoppa

Lin said:


> Awww Thanks! :blush:
> 
> ILGHAUS is the real expert though. I just happen to be online and post faster than her a lot of the time! And many of the members that supported me and helped me learn don't post here any longer. A few years back I went through and read every thread in this section, and sent pms to ILGHAUS and every service dog user that posted here!


 
You're welcome! and its totally true. You two are very helpful and knowledgeable.


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## KZoppa

blehmannwa said:


> I find this whole thread suspicious. As though someone is trying to stir something up. I'm also troubled by some of the spelling and grammar errors--"purebreed" vs, purebred for example.


 
yup. was noticing that as well....


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## blehmannwa

I'm very interested in what Lin has to say. I had never considered the physical demands on a service dog but it only makes sense that they have to be in top shape to handle the demands of their jobs. 
I admire service dogs and their companions a great deal. There's a great JRT that I see in the park who is a seizure dog and I knew a very disabled woman who actually had a Papillon as an emotional support dog. The little dog gave her the confidence to go out despite her appearance.
That's why people who abuse the ADA grind my gears.


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## KZoppa

blehmannwa said:


> I'm very interested in what Lin has to say. I had never considered the physical demands on a service dog but it only makes sense that they have to be in top shape to handle the demands of their jobs.
> *I admire service dogs and their companions a great deal. There's a great JRT that I see in the park who is a seizure dog and I knew a very disabled woman who actually had a Papillon as an emotional support dog. The little dog gave her the confidence to go out despite her appearance*.
> *That's why people who abuse the ADA grind my gears*.


 
totally agree with that one! Its been suggested i look into a service dog because of my back and how bad it gets sometimes. Some days i have extreme pain to the point even picking up a book to read can cause severe pain. any kind of bending is problematic and balance issues are another problem when my back is causing issue. Gonna try a chiropracter and maybe physical therapy first though. 

to my knowledge the physical demands of a service dog are similar if not the same of that of a search and rescue or police/MWD. Must be in top health and physically fit to do whatever is asked. If i'm wrong, someone chime in!


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## blehmannwa

I'm sorry to hear about your back. The picking up books part hits close to home


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## KZoppa

blehmannwa said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your back. The picking up books part hits close to home


 
started out as a trampoline injury when i was 9 or 10 and when i was 11 i went in for a physical and was dianosed with Spinal Curvature. Its bad enough to cause some pretty disabling pain but not enough for a surgical correction so i have good days and bad days. The last almost 2 weeks now have been bad days though. Its frustrating. All my friends who saw me not being able to carry my backpack to class or move beyond a slow stiff bodied walk in high school are protective of me and my husband takes care of pretty much EVERYTHING when he knows my back hurts but he has to work so its tough when my back is being a problem. I usually dont do much driving if any at all when my back is acting up too. just realized its been over 10 years of this nonsense! ugh! 

anyway, i'm curious to see where this thread goes, though i have a feeling it might be safer for it to be closed. I'm not sure it'll go well in later pages....

i say spinal curvature because trying to spell the medical term right now would drive me crazy. Scoliosis. HA! There. Didnt lose my mind. Sorry. Sometimes i get frustrated just thinking about spelling something wrong.


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## blehmannwa

I've noticed that no one has shown up to defend their position for a while....
(Bueller...anyone....Bueller?)
I know that I am not as correct with spelling, grammar and punctuation in a forum post as I am with professional letters. Given that,I would think that if I were defending my employer and my profession that I would make an effort to at least spell check before posting.


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## Debbicia

Because doing a search for something that has to do with my daughter, I found this. And between my daughter being 'used' in someone's nastiness when what was said was so wrong, I felt I had to respond.....as for them losing the case...the only thing I found concerning that was what someone posted on facebook....nothing from the news....so does that make it true??? There is much more that you don't know....but rather than find out...it's so easy to just jump to conclusions. That's the biggest part I just don't get......


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## Debbicia

KZoppa said:


> it doesnt matter what the dogs mother was or what the father was. a golden doodle is still a mutt. Its still a mixed breed dog. As stated previously, you've also ensured more people will see this thread.


And I never said anywhere that she wasn't a purebred dog....all I stated was what was offered...but whoever chose to quote me left out German Shepherds....but who's to say that a 'mutt' is not a good service dog? Like I said, she is already alerting...and she is extremely intelligent. Even as a 3 month puppy, it took her 2 days to realize that she was my daughters...


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## Debbicia

Lin said:


> You don't use a service dog in training, you TRAIN a service dog in training. And they have no business being in the schools when not accompanied by their trainer. If they were at the level of training to make it appropriate, they would be service dogs and not service dogs in training.
> 
> I'm quite scared that a self proclaimed service dog trainer would be arguing a child should have the ability to take a dog in training to school. In many cases I disagree that child should take a service dog to school, and in the cases where I agree its best for the child it only makes their fight even harder when people try to take dogs that aren't ready.


For your information, Tabitha has NOT brought Kiara to school...although we do have approval....I decided that we would allow her when she goes to go for an hour or two until she is completely trained. Tabitha does however take her into public places all the time. After all...first and foremost...she is a seizure alert dog....and THAT she is doing...but until she is a bit older (and less puppyish) she will not go to school. I am not a stupid person...I know that until she has the full training, that she's not ready for the full day...and to date she hasn't gone at all but for meetings.


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## Debbicia

Dr89 said:


> I don't have an issue with you, I have an issue with the lady making money in a very, very unscrupulous manner. There is absolutely NO reason you needed to pay that kind of price for such a dog, trained or not.
> 
> She should have referred you to a good breeder, or a rescue with a worthy dog, and made no money off the dog itself, and then let you bring it back for service dog training for a price closer to the $500-$1000 range.
> 
> ^^^ that isn't even the optimal way to do it, but leaps and bounds better than what she is doing.
> 
> As for the goldendoodle, I don't need to research it--mixing two purebred dogs still results in a mutt with no standard temperament or predictable outcome, which is not ideal when searching for a service dog, and certainly not for $6500.
> 
> Again--I don't have a problem with you at all and if this decision satisfies you then I wish you well. But it doesn't negate the fact that what this lady is doing is UNETHICAL, and is hurting people and animals.


Than what are you saying about the service dogs for $18,000? Or the ones for $25,000? Or how about the ones for $32,000??? (and that company did use dogs from the pound, so who knows what kind of lineage they had?) Goldendoodles (whether or not it is a cutesy name) have been proven to be awesome service dogs. There was more to this decision than just me showing her a picture. My daughter goes into the water a lot. We wanted a dog that could handle the situation if she was to have a seizure while being in the water....one that was also large enough and strong enough. 
This 'mutt' fit the bill. Kiara is already 'serving' Tabitha in many ways. Does she need to retrieve her stuff for her...no...Tab wouldn't be able to think enough to take her medication if the dog went and retrieved it...not during a seizure. Would I like her to be able to retrieve it for me...yes....and one day she will. But like I said....and no one seems to be commenting on this part....she IS alerting...and just as important....she comforts Tab when she is having a seizure. Do you know what it's like to have so many seizure's EVERY day (some having already caused brain damage similar to a traumatic brain injury) that you are exhausted at all times and can't always function? Kiara is right there with her giving her a comfort that me, as her mother, can't provide. I've been here for Tab...but as a mother, you are supposed to be...so the comfort tends to be taken for granted after 15 years of responding to the seizures. But Kiara being there....that is just awesome to Tab....and to me.


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## Debbicia

ILGHAUS said:


> The person who mentioned the name was Gary White of The Ledger and now it seems the mother and the trainer.


Gary White had written permission to use my daughters name. I as her mother, can use it at any time. The person that chose to use it on here to bash an organization, did NOT have permission.


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## Debbicia

My daughter IS disabled...and when all is said and done, Kiara will have been trained to do numerous tasks that will benefit my daughter. But it seems like the most important one...the one that no one can train her for...is her ability to sense her seizures beforehand. And to comfort my daughter....which is a MAJOR benefit to her. She will go through individual training based on the NEEDS of my daughter...not just a 'train her to fetch some medication and POOF she is a service dog', but for what is actually needed. This organization has been awesome with both my daughter and I and I have every faith that this relationship will continue...

The ADA defines a service dog as Quote:
any guide dog, signal dog or other animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks *for the benefit of an individual with a disability* 
with the key part being for the benefit of an individual with a disability, because it doesn't matter how many service tasks a dog knows if the handler is disabled its just a well trained animal and not a service dog.


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## Debbicia

Dr89 said:


> I don't know how it's any less relevant now than it was then?? It clearly didn't get any kind of attention until now.
> 
> I think Lin has some great insights and with the trainer of these dogs now on here I'd like to know if the bad press was in fact deserved or if it was unwarranted. The article seems pretty clear...
> 
> And for starters letting the girl choose her dog seems like a red flag -- don't even breeders try to pair pups with appropriate owners, let alone a dog who may have the handler's life as it's responsibility?
> 
> Even offering "Goldendoodles" is another red flag...I think there's plenty of relevance here, personally!


What is your issue against these dogs??? Because it's not a German Shepherd? Because it's not a purebred dog? I'm just not getting it at all. Why would her getting to choose what kind of dog be a red flag? She didn't get to choose HER dog...just what kind. She wasn't given an inventory of what she had...Kiara had not even been purchased (yes, I said purchased as she was NOT donated) at that time. She was hand picked for Tab from numerous pups. The original one that was picked was actually switched when it became apparent that the pups temperament wasn't fitting for what was needed of a service dog.
And for the person that feels this isn't relevant...no one is making you read this...so rather than try to shut it down....just don't look at it.


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## Debbicia

KZoppa said:


> yup. was noticing that as well....


I am not trying to stir things up. I told you...I am HER mother and was not happy when I found this. I am very protective of my daughter. And yes...I did join after reading what was said. I won't argue with that. I don't have a german shepherd....although I had one many years ago, when Tab first started having seizures...and she alerted and probably saved her life at one point. She is actually what got me started looking for a seizure alert dog for Tab. But as awesome as these dogs can be....they can also be a bit too protective over their humans...and when we are talking about a disability that has to have emergency workers (whether it be EMT, police, doctors, first responders....they are all basically strangers to the dog) involved oftentimes...I didn't want to chance the possible aggression towards one of these people causing them to hurt the dog when the dog is only doing what is in it's nature to do...protect their human. I was all gung ho about her getting a german shepherd based on what I knew from having had one...until I started doing the research about them as service dogs....they are great...but there is always that part of their nature to worry about.
As for the comment about errors...come on...we are only human.


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## Debbicia

blehmannwa said:


> I've noticed that no one has shown up to defend their position for a while....
> (Bueller...anyone....Bueller?)
> I know that I am not as correct with spelling, grammar and punctuation in a forum post as I am with professional letters. Given that,I would think that if I were defending my employer and my profession that I would make an effort to at least spell check before posting.


I don't know about the trainer for NDFH, but I'm in Florida....I was up until midnight on here and got up again to get Tab up for school at 5am...so sorry for the lapse......but to give advance notice...I also work, so there will be another one coming up....or should I just call in so I can continue defending what shouldn't have to be defended at all...and that is my daughters rights...as a minor....and as a person with a disability.


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## kiwilrdg

I did not see how the posts were being negative towards your daughter. They seemed to be aimed towards the trainers. I think the sections where your daughter's name was shown on a link have been changed.

I agree with you when you posted:


> This 'mutt' fit the bill.


Many folks on this board have mixed breed dogs and many mixed breed dogs are wonderful mutts. Do not stop at face value in thinking that there is a slam against your dog. The concern is over the probability of the wrong traits being passed through only looking at the pedigrees of the dogs that are bred. The general opinion of most of the folks on this forum is that even a purebred dog should not be bred unless the individual dog has also proven itself in shows or trials. 

I am glad that you have been having a good experience with your daughter's dog (which sounds like a wonderful one) that you got through that kennel. I wish that there was a smaller number of negative results.


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## Dr89

Debbicia said:


> What is your issue against these dogs??? Because it's not a German Shepherd? Because it's not a purebred dog? I'm just not getting it at all. Why would her getting to choose what kind of dog be a red flag? She didn't get to choose HER dog...just what kind. She wasn't given an inventory of what she had...Kiara had not even been purchased (yes, I said purchased as she was NOT donated) at that time. She was hand picked for Tab from numerous pups. The original one that was picked was actually switched when it became apparent that the pups temperament wasn't fitting for what was needed of a service dog.
> And for the person that feels this isn't relevant...no one is making you read this...so rather than try to shut it down....just don't look at it.


The fact that this dog is working out for you is FANTASTIC. I feel like you're taking this as a personal attack and that is not what I intend to do.

The fact that goldendoodles are being offered is what I don't think is appropriate. Specific breeds are what they are because people have spent hundreds of years making them into that. If you hunt quail or waterfowl you buy a german short haired pointer because it has a soft mouth, points, and retrieves. You buy that because you EXPECT it to do these things and in all likeliness it will act in a very predictable way. Goldendoodle's do not have this type of predictability. And they never will as long as people are mixing a golden retriever and a poodle--you just can't quantify the outcome!

Like I said, nothing against you here! I'm very pleased that this dog is working for you and that is what matters. But it's irresponsible for the training service to be purchasing and/or breeding these types of dogs. There are plenty of breeds suitable to service needs with reputable breeders producing very good and predictable dogs.


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## Debbicia

Thank you for removing my daughters name and info from this. I really appreciate it.
As for the whole goldendoodle thing, I agree that there is no way that you will know which traits are being passed on from the parents, but when the traits of both parents are good...and there isn't any genetic issues...there shouldn't be an issue. Both parents have good pedigrees (and if there is a problem with how I phrased that, I apologize) with no issues. It's not like Kiara is a product of a Rott or a Pitt. If you wish to slam a breed or a mixed breed, do so of a mix that has issues. If you know of an issue with these types of dogs...by all means fill me in....but we have had her for months and she is awesome. She has more personality than any dog I've ever had or known and she fits my daughters personality to a tee. 
I'm sorry that I got so frustrated...but it's not just about the dog but how things were phrased and when I know more about the situation than those that are posting and jumping to conclusions.
We (in our search for a seizure alert/service dog) did much research. We also dealt with companies that seemed to have double standards. One told us that she qualified for a dog...than came back and said because she wasn't mature enough to take care of the dog completely on her own, that they wouldn't accept her for their program. The same organization was placing dogs with people that were wheelchair bound (which I have no issue with) and relied on other people for ALL the dogs care. What kind of a standard is that???
Then there was the organization (who also was dealing with MAJOR legal issues which was brought to my attention when the police showed up at my door) that ONLY dealt with german shepherds. After hearing his side of the story (which also dealt with numerous states to where FEDERAL charges were pending), I believed in him enough to continue dealing with his organization....only to have him break a verbal promise that he made directly to my daughter...and then slam me when I called him on it. He gave me less than a week to come up with $1500 deposit for the dog, then stated (and this is a quote), " If you couldn't make a down payment how can you take care of an expensive highly trained service animal? " and stated also that he was going to keep the dog he was supposedly training for her after telling her personally that no matter what, the dog was hers. I backed him (for a short time until we learned what kind of person he truly was) through his legal issues. Then I was attacked by his attorney for not signing a contract that was never sent to me.
I found Noelle's Dogs Four Hope through another organization that helped raise the downpayments for seizure alert dogs. NDFH came highly recommended. We have had nothing but a positive experience with their organization...and am very happy about the whole situation.
Please...before making negative comments about this mixed breed...talk to people that have them....they really are awesome!!!!


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## Lin

The comments aren't about the dog or being a mixed breed, but about the breeding practices and the people that are breeding them.


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## KZoppa

Debbicia said:


> I am not trying to stir things up. I told you...I am HER mother and was not happy when I found this. I am very protective of my daughter. And yes...I did join after reading what was said. I won't argue with that. I don't have a german shepherd....although I had one many years ago, when Tab first started having seizures...and she alerted and probably saved her life at one point. She is actually what got me started looking for a seizure alert dog for Tab. But as awesome as these dogs can be....they can also be a bit too protective over their humans...and when we are talking about a disability that has to have emergency workers (whether it be EMT, police, doctors, first responders....they are all basically strangers to the dog) involved oftentimes...I didn't want to chance the possible aggression towards one of these people causing them to hurt the dog when the dog is only doing what is in it's nature to do...protect their human. I was all gung ho about her getting a german shepherd based on what I knew from having had one...until I started doing the research about them as service dogs....they are great...but there is always that part of their nature to worry about.
> As for the comment about errors...come on...we are only human.


 

the fact that instead of letting a thread die that had been forgotten, you DID stir things up by commenting so now the can of worms has been REOPENED instead of left to gather dust. I'm a mother of two. My daughter is 3 and my son is almost 2. I'm a protective mom as well. I understand that without a doubt in my mind. My mom has had seizures off and on since she was about 14 years old. She would benefit greatly from a seizure alert dog but she is allergic to dogs, yes even the ones who are supposed to be for allergy suffers. I understand the nature of a GSD. A well bred and well mannered GSD would allow medical personel to the handler/patient. They DO breed GSDs from reputable breeders that would work as service dogs. Just with other breeds, GSDs do come with a variety of personalities and temperments. They can range from very mellow and relaxed to dogs better suited for guarding a junk yard even from the junk yard owners. I understand finding this thread was upsetting but considering it had been posted and hadnt been acknowledged for MONTHS, it would have been better to just let it go and leave it alone instead of drawing further attention BACK to it.


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## Debbicia

Lin said:


> The comments aren't about the dog or being a mixed breed, but about the breeding practices and the people that are breeding them.


See...that's exactly what I'm talking about. How can you make a comment about the breeding practices or the people that breed them, when you don't know these people? Their names (the breeder) was NEVER mentioned...


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## Debbicia

KZoppa said:


> the fact that instead of letting a thread die that had been forgotten, you DID stir things up by commenting so now the can of worms has been REOPENED instead of left to gather dust. I'm a mother of two. My daughter is 3 and my son is almost 2. I'm a protective mom as well. I understand that without a doubt in my mind. My mom has had seizures off and on since she was about 14 years old. She would benefit greatly from a seizure alert dog but she is allergic to dogs, yes even the ones who are supposed to be for allergy suffers. I understand the nature of a GSD. A well bred and well mannered GSD would allow medical personel to the handler/patient. They DO breed GSDs from reputable breeders that would work as service dogs. Just with other breeds, GSDs do come with a variety of personalities and temperments. They can range from very mellow and relaxed to dogs better suited for guarding a junk yard even from the junk yard owners. I understand finding this thread was upsetting but considering it had been posted and hadnt been acknowledged for MONTHS, it would have been better to just let it go and leave it alone instead of drawing further attention BACK to it.


I would have responded the same way if I had found it then. I don't see what your issue is with it being reopened? Is it hurting YOU in some personal way? I achieved what I set out to do...it was acknowledged that their was not permission to use my daughters name...or any part of the article without consent...and her name was removed. The link remains....which is fine.


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## Lin

Debbicia said:


> See...that's exactly what I'm talking about. How can you make a comment about the breeding practices or the people that breed them, when you don't know these people? Their names (the breeder) was NEVER mentioned...


Because by definition of breeding these mutts they are breeding dogs with no purpose, breed standard, or goals making them irresponsible breeders. As I mentioned before, when someone comes up with a breed standard and purpose and is working on F10 while producing a consistent type of dog you can argue that they are responsible breeders. 

I understand this is personal to you and your family, but no one is trying to attack you or your dog but point out the issues lacking in the breeding and training organizations. And every organization has issues that are lacking, none is perfect. I would highly recommend the place where I currently train, but I would also quickly point out their downfalls and what I disagree with if asked. Its about being objective which is much easier for us looking at the situation without the emotional attachment.


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## Dr89

Debbicia said:


> See...that's exactly what I'm talking about. How can you make a comment about the breeding practices or the people that breed them, when you don't know these people? Their names (the breeder) was NEVER mentioned...


It's like a vicious circle trying to get this point across 

The fact they're breeding goldendoodle's is all one needs to know in order to call into question their breeding practices.


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## blehmannwa

I'm very glad that the dog is working out and it sounds like finding the right dog was a frustrating and challenging process.


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## KZoppa

Debbicia said:


> I would have responded the same way if I had found it then. I don't see what your issue is with it being reopened? Is it hurting YOU in some personal way? I achieved what I set out to do...it was acknowledged that their was not permission to use my daughters name...or any part of the article without consent...and her name was removed. The link remains....which is fine.


 

perhaps instead of attacking first and THEN being civil, you should have simply stated who you were, asking that your daughters name be removed and why and gone about your way instead of drawing further attention to something that didnt get a whole lot of attention months ago but is now because people are now getting more and more interested in whats going on.


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## Debbicia

KZoppa said:


> perhaps instead of attacking first and THEN being civil, you should have simply stated who you were, asking that your daughters name be removed and why and gone about your way instead of drawing further attention to something that didnt get a whole lot of attention months ago but is now because people are now getting more and more interested in whats going on.


Are you kidding me??? In my first response, I stated who I was and that I wanted my daughters name removed. First paragraph.
From that point, I didn't so much attack as defend. Learn both sides of a story before you post....this is a PUBLIC forum...if you didn't want people to respond, than it shouldn't have been posted.
You state that you're a parent....well, you wouldn't allow your childs name to be associated with something negative either if you could do something about it. 
Also...I think if you were aware someone was wrong about something you felt very strongly about...I would hope that you would show your children that it is worth fighting for. I have not stated names of people or companies other than the one that this was originally all about.....but have stated other facts...


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## KZoppa

Debbicia said:


> Are you kidding me??? In my first response, I stated who I was and that I wanted my daughters name removed. First paragraph.
> From that point, I didn't so much attack as defend. Learn both sides of a story before you post....this is a PUBLIC forum...if you didn't want people to respond, than it shouldn't have been posted.
> You state that you're a parent....well, you wouldn't allow your childs name to be associated with something negative either if you could do something about it.
> Also...I think if you were aware someone was wrong about something you felt very strongly about...I would hope that you would show your children that it is worth fighting for. I have not stated names of people or companies other than the one that this was originally all about.....but have stated other facts...


 
you also could have simply stated who you were and requested the thread not only be closed but probably permanently deleted as well.


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## ILGHAUS

I do have some concerns on this particular manner of selling and placing a puppy which may or may not end up being a SD. 

We have someone here who mentions that currently they have a puppy that is 3 - 4 months old now. Also states that puppy has been with family for months. Which can only lead to someone reading this info that the puppy was around 8 weeks old when placed with family. Florida which is where poster mentioned they live has a law that a puppy must be 8 weeks old to be brought into the state for purposes of selling. If puppy was bred in state there is also a law stating that puppies sold must be 8 weeks old.

Some of us here question why an organization would charge a hugh sum of money for a "potential" SD that is too young to have itself been temperament tested for public access work or health tested including those concerns dealing with its particular breed(s)? 

There is a large percentage of dogs being washed out in the service dog candidate stage (before basic obedience, temperament & health testing, evaluation that young dog is suitable to go into serious training, suitable to be trained as a working dog). Later, there is a large percentage of dogs being washed out in the service dog in training stage. 

I have a concern where individuals put out a lot of money and then have to wait months before they even begin the road toward what they hope will be a suitable SD for their situation - one that will grow up into a dog that can meet the legal definition for a SD.


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## KZoppa

ILGHAUS said:


> I do have some concerns on this particular manner of selling and placing a puppy which may or may not end up being a SD.
> 
> We have someone here who mentions that currently they have a puppy that is 3 - 4 months old now. Also states that puppy has been with family for months. Which can only lead to someone reading this info that the puppy was around 8 weeks old when placed with family. Florida which is where poster mentioned they live has a law that a puppy must be 8 weeks old to be brought into the state for purposes of selling. If puppy was bred in state there is also a law stating that puppies sold must be 8 weeks old.
> 
> Some of us here question why an organization would charge a hugh sum of money for a "potential" SD that is too young to have itself been temperament tested for public access work or health tested including those concerns dealing with its particular breed(s)?
> 
> There is a large percentage of dogs being washed out in the service dog candidate stage (before basic obedience, temperament & health testing, evaluation that young dog is suitable to go into serious training, suitable to be trained as a working dog). Later, there is a large percentage of dogs being washed out in the service dog in training stage.
> 
> I have a concern where individuals put out a lot of money and then have to wait months before they even begin the road toward what they hope will be a suitable SD for their situation - one that will grow up into a dog that can meet the legal definition for a SD.


 


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## ILGHAUS

> you also could have simply stated who you were and requested the thread not only be closed but probably permanently deleted as well.


An individual can also register here as a member and send a message via PM to a Mod or Admin with their concern on an old thread. As had already been stated this thread has been revived and not only original info on a particular situation been restated but additional info has been tossed in. I removed original post _from public view as requested_ but poster themself has mentioned the name of the individual several times. 

Since the person themself seems to want this thread to continue to post their viewpoints that is fine. Remember any who respond in this thread to follow the posting rules.

To the poster who demanded post that was responding to a newspaper article to be deleted, please don't come back in several days and request that additional posts that you have made or those posts made in answer to yours be deleted. 

Everyone have a good day.


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## AbbyK9

I realize that this is an old thread that has been "resurrected", but going back and reading over all of these posts, there are a couple of things I would like to add from my point of view.



> *OK...first and foremost...whoever felt the need to post ANYTHING about my MINOR daughter without consent needs to remove it IMMEDIATELY before I contact an attorney.*


I think it is _very nice_ of the forum administrators and staff to have removed the excerpts of the article at the request of this poster. 

However, I would like to point out that there was _absolutely no legal requirement _for them to have done so, and that there is _absolutely nothing illegal _about posting these article excerpts on this forum, for the purpose of review or commentary (or any other reasons), even _without the permission from the parent_.

Let me explain.

When you speak to a journalist, you give the journalist _permission_ to write about the subject matter for which you were interviewed for his or her newspaper. This means that you are _also _giving permission to have this information posted in the newspaper's print edition and on the newspaper's digital editions. (You're even giving the newspaper permission to make money from the article and control the copyright to the article.)

When this happens, you agree that people may _quote, post, or link the article _and that people may _comment_ on the article. You can not legally keep people from posting the article on the bulletin board at their work, nor can you keep people from posting the article on a public forum where it may become the subject of (positive or negative) attention or discussion.

The only thing that can _legally be prevented_ is the posting of a _whole article_ to a forum, because that would be a violation of Fair Use/Copyright laws. (This would infringe on the journalist's and the newspaper's copyright, not your rights.)

So while it was very nice of the administrators to have removed the quote in question, please do understand that they had no _legal requirement _to do so and that there is nothing any attorney could have done _legally _to remove this article.

Incidentally, I believe that your statement here really sums the situation up when it comes to posting of a newspaper article - 



> this is a PUBLIC forum...if you didn't want people to respond, than it shouldn't have been posted.


This 100% applies to the article as well. When you give permission for a journalist to write an article about you or your child, then you must expect that people _will respond _to it and talk about it in public. Whether you like where/how/when/why they speak about it or not.


Anyway...


*Regarding mixed-breed dogs -*

I personally do not care whether a Service Dog is purebred or a mixed breed, as long as the dog is physically and mentally able to do the tasks for which it was trained and/or purchased. 

If I am not mistaken, it was the Guide Dog Foundation (?) in Australia (or maybe New Zealand) that first bred Labradors to Poodles in order to produce a Labrador-Poodle mix that would be able to work for people with disabilities who were allergic to dogs (but did fine with the Poodle hair) but needed a more "sturdy" dog such as a Labrador instead of a Poodle. 

However, and this is why people get so annoyed or upset with people producing Labradoodles/Goldendoodles in the US -- there is a big difference in their breeding program and in the vast majority of breeding programs of Labradoodles and Goldendoodles in the United States - most breeders of these dogs in the United States take a purebred Golden (or Labrador) and a purebred Poodle and then call the offspring Labradoodles/Goldendoodles. The Service Dog breeding program overseas, on the other hand, has established a breed standard and is enough generations down in breeding these dogs that they "breed true" to the standard.

Why is this different? 

Simple - when you mix two purebred dogs, the puppies that you get may inherit the desired traits, such as Poodle coat, or THEY MIGHT NOT. When you have bred enough generations to "breed true", you can actually predict what traits a dog may inherit.

The reason most "dog people" are so opposed to the breeding of Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, or any other sort of doodles is because the majority of it is done by breeders who cross Breed A with Breed B, put a nice name on it, and charge a lot of money.

Not saying that this is what happened here or that Tabitha's puppy came from such a breeder, but this is WHY so many people don't like it when these dogs get publicity because it does fuel the sales for those breeders.

But the breed is really neither here nor there in this discussion.

...

I personally don't like the way this company pairs Service Dogs with people because they chose them so young, for two reasons --> one, you won't know whether your dog will actually work as a Service Dog _until the dog is fully grown and matured_, and you are essentially going for _two years _(or more) without the dog being able to do the tasks you need it to do in the settings where it needs to do them.

It's very difficult to predict whether a dog will work out as a Service Dog when you place them this young - as can be seen by the very, very high "drop out" rates of Service Dog pups raised by organizations that have puppy raisers raise them before they start their proper training. 

There is also no way for the company to reasonably predict that the puppy, once grown, will be healthy enough to work as a Service Dog - since hips/elbows are not usually checked and certified until they are at least 15 to 18 months old.

Although your puppy is naturally alerting (which is great), there really is no way for the company you got her from to predict whether she will be a suitable Service Dog once she is fully grown, and there is no way for them to predict that she will be physically able to do the job until she is fully grown. 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic that you're essentially your own puppy raiser and get to bond with her from a young age, but it does bring up questions for me - which may be covered in your contract - about what happens if she does not turn out to be suitable as a Service Dog? What happens if, for example, she turns out to be a fearful biter? Or aggressive toward other dogs? Or she is diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia at 2 years old? All of those things would preclude her from working as a Service Dog, and unless the company will give you another dog (that will work) for free, you essentially paid a lot of money for a pet. (Not that having a loved pet is a bad thing, but that is not why you paid for her.)

Just some thoughts this thread brings up.

Lastly, I want to specifically address this -



> Tabitha does however take her into public places all the time. After all...first and foremost...she is a seizure alert dog....and THAT she is doing...but until she is a bit older (and less puppyish) she will not go to school.


It is my understanding that you are located in Florida - is this correct?

If you are, in fact, located in Florida, you should be aware that Florida's animal laws make no specific provisions for Service Dogs in Training and their public access except for the following -



> (8) Any trainer of a service animal, *while engaged in the training of such an animal*, has the same rights and privileges with respect to access to public facilities and the same liability for damage as is provided for those persons described in subsection (3) accompanied by service animals.


Full Florida statutes on Service Animals here --> http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusflst413_08.htm

Please note that this applies only to actually being engaged in training. This means that the dog would actually be training very specific tasks, rather than simply accompanying the handler in public places (if those are places where pets are not normally allowed).

What does this mean? Well, it's the difference between making a quick run into a store to work on a specific Service Dog task with your Service Dog in Training and taking your dog shopping. The difference between popping into the outdoor seating area of a restaurant to work on specific commands and going into a restaurant to eat. In other words, the primary purpose for the dog's public access must be that the dog is actually being trained for its future service - not the purpose of socialization, for example, or just to bring the dog along.

Your dog, under the ADA and state law, is currently _not a Service Dog_, although she is alerting to your daughter's seizures by herself. She will not be a seizure alert / response dog until she has been trained _specific, demonstrable tasks _- at least three of them. (Be aware also that the law does not recognize seizure alert as a _trained, demonstrable task _because it is _not trained, _only reinforced behavior.)

Just some thoughts. And since you don't know me from Adam, I am absolutely, 100% an advocate for Service Dogs and their use.


----------



## KZoppa

AbbyK9 said:


> I realize that this is an old thread that has been "resurrected", but going back and reading over all of these posts, there are a couple of things I would like to add from my point of view.
> 
> I think it is _very nice_ of the forum administrators and staff to have removed the excerpts of the article at the request of this poster.
> 
> However, I would like to point out that there was _absolutely no legal requirement _for them to have done so, and that there is _absolutely nothing illegal _about posting these article excerpts on this forum, for the purpose of review or commentary (or any other reasons), even _without the permission from the parent_.
> 
> Let me explain.
> 
> When you speak to a journalist, you give the journalist _permission_ to write about the subject matter for which you were interviewed for his or her newspaper. This means that you are _also _giving permission to have this information posted in the newspaper's print edition and on the newspaper's digital editions. (You're even giving the newspaper permission to make money from the article and control the copyright to the article.)
> 
> When this happens, you agree that people may _quote, post, or link the article _and that people may _comment_ on the article. You can not legally keep people from posting the article on the bulletin board at their work, nor can you keep people from posting the article on a public forum where it may become the subject of (positive or negative) attention or discussion.
> 
> The only thing that can _legally be prevented_ is the posting of a _whole article_ to a forum, because that would be a violation of Fair Use/Copyright laws. (This would infringe on the journalist's and the newspaper's copyright, not your rights.)
> 
> So while it was very nice of the administrators to have removed the quote in question, please do understand that they had no _legal requirement _to do so and that there is nothing any attorney could have done _legally _to remove this article.
> 
> Incidentally, I believe that your statement here really sums the situation up when it comes to posting of a newspaper article -
> 
> This 100% applies to the article as well. When you give permission for a journalist to write an article about you or your child, then you must expect that people _will respond _to it and talk about it in public. Whether you like where/how/when/why they speak about it or not.
> 
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> 
> *Regarding mixed-breed dogs -*
> 
> I personally do not care whether a Service Dog is purebred or a mixed breed, as long as the dog is physically and mentally able to do the tasks for which it was trained and/or purchased.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, it was the Guide Dog Foundation (?) in Australia (or maybe New Zealand) that first bred Labradors to Poodles in order to produce a Labrador-Poodle mix that would be able to work for people with disabilities who were allergic to dogs (but did fine with the Poodle hair) but needed a more "sturdy" dog such as a Labrador instead of a Poodle.
> 
> However, and this is why people get so annoyed or upset with people producing Labradoodles/Goldendoodles in the US -- there is a big difference in their breeding program and in the vast majority of breeding programs of Labradoodles and Goldendoodles in the United States - most breeders of these dogs in the United States take a purebred Golden (or Labrador) and a purebred Poodle and then call the offspring Labradoodles/Goldendoodles. The Service Dog breeding program overseas, on the other hand, has established a breed standard and is enough generations down in breeding these dogs that they "breed true" to the standard.
> 
> Why is this different?
> 
> Simple - when you mix two purebred dogs, the puppies that you get may inherit the desired traits, such as Poodle coat, or THEY MIGHT NOT. When you have bred enough generations to "breed true", you can actually predict what traits a dog may inherit.
> 
> The reason most "dog people" are so opposed to the breeding of Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, or any other sort of doodles is because the majority of it is done by breeders who cross Breed A with Breed B, put a nice name on it, and charge a lot of money.
> 
> Not saying that this is what happened here or that Tabitha's puppy came from such a breeder, but this is WHY so many people don't like it when these dogs get publicity because it does fuel the sales for those breeders.
> 
> But the breed is really neither here nor there in this discussion.
> 
> ...
> 
> I personally don't like the way this company pairs Service Dogs with people because they chose them so young, for two reasons --> one, you won't know whether your dog will actually work as a Service Dog _until the dog is fully grown and matured_, and you are essentially going for _two years _(or more) without the dog being able to do the tasks you need it to do in the settings where it needs to do them.
> 
> It's very difficult to predict whether a dog will work out as a Service Dog when you place them this young - as can be seen by the very, very high "drop out" rates of Service Dog pups raised by organizations that have puppy raisers raise them before they start their proper training.
> 
> There is also no way for the company to reasonably predict that the puppy, once grown, will be healthy enough to work as a Service Dog - since hips/elbows are not usually checked and certified until they are at least 15 to 18 months old.
> 
> Although your puppy is naturally alerting (which is great), there really is no way for the company you got her from to predict whether she will be a suitable Service Dog once she is fully grown, and there is no way for them to predict that she will be physically able to do the job until she is fully grown.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic that you're essentially your own puppy raiser and get to bond with her from a young age, but it does bring up questions for me - which may be covered in your contract - about what happens if she does not turn out to be suitable as a Service Dog? What happens if, for example, she turns out to be a fearful biter? Or aggressive toward other dogs? Or she is diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia at 2 years old? All of those things would preclude her from working as a Service Dog, and unless the company will give you another dog (that will work) for free, you essentially paid a lot of money for a pet. (Not that having a loved pet is a bad thing, but that is not why you paid for her.)
> 
> Just some thoughts this thread brings up.
> 
> Lastly, I want to specifically address this -
> 
> It is my understanding that you are located in Florida - is this correct?
> 
> If you are, in fact, located in Florida, you should be aware that Florida's animal laws make no specific provisions for Service Dogs in Training and their public access except for the following -
> 
> 
> 
> Full Florida statutes on Service Animals here --> Florida Assistance Animal/Guide Dog Laws
> 
> Please note that this applies only to actually being engaged in training. This means that the dog would actually be training very specific tasks, rather than simply accompanying the handler in public places (if those are places where pets are not normally allowed).
> 
> What does this mean? Well, it's the difference between making a quick run into a store to work on a specific Service Dog task with your Service Dog in Training and taking your dog shopping. The difference between popping into the outdoor seating area of a restaurant to work on specific commands and going into a restaurant to eat. In other words, the primary purpose for the dog's public access must be that the dog is actually being trained for its future service - not the purpose of socialization, for example, or just to bring the dog along.
> 
> Your dog, under the ADA and state law, is currently _not a Service Dog_, although she is alerting to your daughter's seizures by herself. She will not be a seizure alert / response dog until she has been trained _specific, demonstrable tasks _- at least three of them. (Be aware also that the law does not recognize seizure alert as a _trained, demonstrable task _because it is _not trained, _only reinforced behavior.)
> 
> Just some thoughts. And since you don't know me from Adam, I am absolutely, 100% an advocate for Service Dogs and their use.


 
very well said Chris


----------



## Debbicia

AbbyK9 said:


> I realize that this is an old thread that has been "resurrected", but going back and reading over all of these posts, there are a couple of things I would like to add from my point of view.
> 
> I think it is _very nice_ of the forum administrators and staff to have removed the excerpts of the article at the request of this poster.
> 
> However, I would like to point out that there was _absolutely no legal requirement _for them to have done so, and that there is _absolutely nothing illegal _about posting these article excerpts on this forum, for the purpose of review or commentary (or any other reasons), even _without the permission from the parent_.
> 
> Let me explain.
> 
> When you speak to a journalist, you give the journalist _permission_ to write about the subject matter for which you were interviewed for his or her newspaper. This means that you are _also _giving permission to have this information posted in the newspaper's print edition and on the newspaper's digital editions. (You're even giving the newspaper permission to make money from the article and control the copyright to the article.)
> 
> When this happens, you agree that people may _quote, post, or link the article _and that people may _comment_ on the article. You can not legally keep people from posting the article on the bulletin board at their work, nor can you keep people from posting the article on a public forum where it may become the subject of (positive or negative) attention or discussion.
> 
> The only thing that can _legally be prevented_ is the posting of a _whole article_ to a forum, because that would be a violation of Fair Use/Copyright laws. (This would infringe on the journalist's and the newspaper's copyright, not your rights.)
> 
> So while it was very nice of the administrators to have removed the quote in question, please do understand that they had no _legal requirement _to do so and that there is nothing any attorney could have done _legally _to remove this article.
> 
> Incidentally, I believe that your statement here really sums the situation up when it comes to posting of a newspaper article -
> 
> This 100% applies to the article as well. When you give permission for a journalist to write an article about you or your child, then you must expect that people _will respond _to it and talk about it in public. Whether you like where/how/when/why they speak about it or not.
> 
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> 
> *Regarding mixed-breed dogs -*
> 
> I personally do not care whether a Service Dog is purebred or a mixed breed, as long as the dog is physically and mentally able to do the tasks for which it was trained and/or purchased.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, it was the Guide Dog Foundation (?) in Australia (or maybe New Zealand) that first bred Labradors to Poodles in order to produce a Labrador-Poodle mix that would be able to work for people with disabilities who were allergic to dogs (but did fine with the Poodle hair) but needed a more "sturdy" dog such as a Labrador instead of a Poodle.
> 
> However, and this is why people get so annoyed or upset with people producing Labradoodles/Goldendoodles in the US -- there is a big difference in their breeding program and in the vast majority of breeding programs of Labradoodles and Goldendoodles in the United States - most breeders of these dogs in the United States take a purebred Golden (or Labrador) and a purebred Poodle and then call the offspring Labradoodles/Goldendoodles. The Service Dog breeding program overseas, on the other hand, has established a breed standard and is enough generations down in breeding these dogs that they "breed true" to the standard.
> 
> Why is this different?
> 
> Simple - when you mix two purebred dogs, the puppies that you get may inherit the desired traits, such as Poodle coat, or THEY MIGHT NOT. When you have bred enough generations to "breed true", you can actually predict what traits a dog may inherit.
> 
> The reason most "dog people" are so opposed to the breeding of Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, or any other sort of doodles is because the majority of it is done by breeders who cross Breed A with Breed B, put a nice name on it, and charge a lot of money.
> 
> Not saying that this is what happened here or that Tabitha's puppy came from such a breeder, but this is WHY so many people don't like it when these dogs get publicity because it does fuel the sales for those breeders.
> 
> But the breed is really neither here nor there in this discussion.
> 
> ...
> 
> I personally don't like the way this company pairs Service Dogs with people because they chose them so young, for two reasons --> one, you won't know whether your dog will actually work as a Service Dog _until the dog is fully grown and matured_, and you are essentially going for _two years _(or more) without the dog being able to do the tasks you need it to do in the settings where it needs to do them.
> 
> It's very difficult to predict whether a dog will work out as a Service Dog when you place them this young - as can be seen by the very, very high "drop out" rates of Service Dog pups raised by organizations that have puppy raisers raise them before they start their proper training.
> 
> There is also no way for the company to reasonably predict that the puppy, once grown, will be healthy enough to work as a Service Dog - since hips/elbows are not usually checked and certified until they are at least 15 to 18 months old.
> 
> Although your puppy is naturally alerting (which is great), there really is no way for the company you got her from to predict whether she will be a suitable Service Dog once she is fully grown, and there is no way for them to predict that she will be physically able to do the job until she is fully grown.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic that you're essentially your own puppy raiser and get to bond with her from a young age, but it does bring up questions for me - which may be covered in your contract - about what happens if she does not turn out to be suitable as a Service Dog? What happens if, for example, she turns out to be a fearful biter? Or aggressive toward other dogs? Or she is diagnosed with severe hip dysplasia at 2 years old? All of those things would preclude her from working as a Service Dog, and unless the company will give you another dog (that will work) for free, you essentially paid a lot of money for a pet. (Not that having a loved pet is a bad thing, but that is not why you paid for her.)
> 
> Just some thoughts this thread brings up.
> 
> Lastly, I want to specifically address this -
> 
> It is my understanding that you are located in Florida - is this correct?
> 
> If you are, in fact, located in Florida, you should be aware that Florida's animal laws make no specific provisions for Service Dogs in Training and their public access except for the following -
> 
> 
> 
> Full Florida statutes on Service Animals here --> Florida Assistance Animal/Guide Dog Laws
> 
> Please note that this applies only to actually being engaged in training. This means that the dog would actually be training very specific tasks, rather than simply accompanying the handler in public places (if those are places where pets are not normally allowed).
> 
> What does this mean? Well, it's the difference between making a quick run into a store to work on a specific Service Dog task with your Service Dog in Training and taking your dog shopping. The difference between popping into the outdoor seating area of a restaurant to work on specific commands and going into a restaurant to eat. In other words, the primary purpose for the dog's public access must be that the dog is actually being trained for its future service - not the purpose of socialization, for example, or just to bring the dog along.
> 
> Your dog, under the ADA and state law, is currently _not a Service Dog_, although she is alerting to your daughter's seizures by herself. She will not be a seizure alert / response dog until she has been trained _specific, demonstrable tasks _- at least three of them. (Be aware also that the law does not recognize seizure alert as a _trained, demonstrable task _because it is _not trained, _only reinforced behavior.)
> 
> Just some thoughts. And since you don't know me from Adam, I am absolutely, 100% an advocate for Service Dogs and their use.


I understand where you are coming from..and for the most part agree. As for using excerpts from the article...it even states (which is on the thread in place of what WAS originally there,

This story appeared in print on page A1
All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.
Originally there was a link...but it was also republished. No where on here does it specify that parts can be used...it says the material may NOT be republished without permission...I realize that in this case permission would have had to come from the newspaper...but either way....permission was never granted.


I realize that there are unscrupulous breeders....(not just among the popular mixed breeds, but also among the purebred dogs as well) but amongst my research i found that although it takes (I believe it was 7 generations...not 10 as was mentioned earlier) before a purebred can be established, it also states that the first generation is the healthiest of them all.
goldendoodle information
This also states that any traits that both parents don't have in common can't be passed on to the pups.....so that means since both parents didn't have any of those problem traits that you mentioned...Kiara won't have any either.
To be very truthful with you....I would rather have a mutt that we know where they come from than a purebred breed like a rott or a pitt. (sp??) It is what makes up the dog that should be the issue.....and as you said...the labradoodles and the goldendoodles are growing in popularity....and they have been proven to be good service animals.

In response to the moderator...about me coming to them later to remove any of this, I won't. If I was going to do that...I would have already. If they would like to remove my daughters full name in my original post, they can...I only used it since it was already posted in the article. In all others I only referred to her as Tab or Tabbee. Either way...it's up to them.
My intent was not to stir up a hornets nest...but rather to fight (as usual) for my daughters rights. As I stated earlier....I'm very protective of her....
As for the rest...yes...I defended NDFH....and I stated why....they are VERY nice people and have been very supportive of everything with Tab...as are the people I've met through this whole thing. I'm not a 'b'....but when I believe in something, I tend to be outspoken. This is our first time with the whole seizure alert/service dog....as it's taken almost 5 years for our search for one to reach it's conclusion. I just wish people would do more research before jumping to conclusions about something that they aren't personally involved with....just cause it's written (or spoken OR on the news) doesn't make it true.
One more thing....NDFH have taken care of the bills with the vet (for checkups, etc and paid for her to be spayed)......they did NOT just dump a puppy on us and leave us on our own. And in answer to your question...the contract will cover everything else that it needs to regarding Kiara.
Ok...I am done now. I've had my say....and I'm really too exhausted to continue this. I will, however, reiterate this.....We are at this point in time....very happy with Kiara's progress and her personality. As I write this, Tab is in bed asleep after a pretty rough seizure and Kiara is lying on the bed next to her....with Tab's arm draped over her....they both are very content. Good night all...thanks for your opinions and comments.....


----------



## Debbicia

Debbicia said:


> I understand where you are coming from..and for the most part agree. As for using excerpts from the article...it even states (which is on the thread in place of what WAS originally there,
> 
> This story appeared in print on page A1
> All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.
> Originally there was a link...but it was also republished. No where on here does it specify that parts can be used...it says the material may NOT be republished without permission...I realize that in this case permission would have had to come from the newspaper...but either way....permission was never granted.
> 
> 
> I realize that there are unscrupulous breeders....(not just among the popular mixed breeds, but also among the purebred dogs as well) but amongst my research i found that although it takes (I believe it was 7 generations...not 10 as was mentioned earlier) before a purebred can be established, it also states that the first generation is the healthiest of them all.
> goldendoodle information
> This also states that any traits that both parents don't have in common can't be passed on to the pups.....so that means since both parents didn't have any of those problem traits that you mentioned...Kiara won't have any either.
> To be very truthful with you....I would rather have a mutt that we know where they come from than a purebred breed like a rott or a pitt. (sp??) It is what makes up the dog that should be the issue.....and as you said...the labradoodles and the goldendoodles are growing in popularity....and they have been proven to be good service animals.
> 
> In response to the moderator...about me coming to them later to remove any of this, I won't. If I was going to do that...I would have already. If they would like to remove my daughters full name in my original post, they can...I only used it since it was already posted in the article. In all others I only referred to her as Tab or Tabbee. Either way...it's up to them.
> My intent was not to stir up a hornets nest...but rather to fight (as usual) for my daughters rights. As I stated earlier....I'm very protective of her....
> As for the rest...yes...I defended NDFH....and I stated why....they are VERY nice people and have been very supportive of everything with Tab...as are the people I've met through this whole thing. I'm not a 'b'....but when I believe in something, I tend to be outspoken. This is our first time with the whole seizure alert/service dog....as it's taken almost 5 years for our search for one to reach it's conclusion. I just wish people would do more research before jumping to conclusions about something that they aren't personally involved with....just cause it's written (or spoken OR on the news) doesn't make it true.
> One more thing....NDFH have taken care of the bills with the vet (for checkups, etc and paid for her to be spayed)......they did NOT just dump a puppy on us and leave us on our own. And in answer to your question...the contract will cover everything else that it needs to regarding Kiara.
> Ok...I am done now. I've had my say....and I'm really too exhausted to continue this. I will, however, reiterate this.....We are at this point in time....very happy with Kiara's progress and her personality. As I write this, Tab is in bed asleep after a pretty rough seizure and Kiara is lying on the bed next to her....with Tab's arm draped over her....they both are very content. Good night all...thanks for your opinions and comments.....


Please ignore any mistakes, typos, or grammatical errors...it's been a very long, rough day (I'm a paraeducator in an ESE self contained class room made up of middle school students....need I say more?) and got very little sleep.


----------



## KZoppa

Debbicia, we do all hope everything works out with your pup. and having seen my fair share of seizures, i hope that with time your daughters seizures lessen. I'm sure if you ever have any questions, you're welcome here to ask. We may be able to help and offer support and advice. Good luck.


----------



## Debbicia

KZoppa said:


> Debbicia, we do all hope everything works out with your pup. and having seen my fair share of seizures, i hope that with time your daughters seizures lessen. I'm sure if you ever have any questions, you're welcome here to ask. We may be able to help and offer support and advice. Good luck.


Thanks!....oh...by the way...Debbi works just fine....LOL


----------



## 2gsdogs

*Director of Trainer*

I appologize for the misspelling on my posts. I work from 6Am to 5PM at one job, come home eat and then on to job #2 from 7PM to 10PM dog training, and then on to job #3 where I am making service dog vest for persons that have placed the orders, and for free for our militatry vets. So I think I have just cause to not be on this site to be defending and encouraging the thread. Spelling is not a current priority to me at the early morning hrs, when I should be sleeping. 

The bad press was not warnted and NDFH has turned these people and their files over to their attorney. From this time forward the Attorney had advised us to make no more comments regarding these cases.

If people have questions regarding that information, you may contact me and I will give you the attorney's phone number.


----------



## middleofnowhere

"The only thing that can _legally be prevented_ is the posting of a _whole article_ to a forum, because that would be a violation of Fair Use/Copyright laws. (This would infringe on the journalist's and the newspaper's copyright, not your rights.)"

I am not so sure about this aspect of copyright law. I think as long as you cite the article & publication data this, as a newspaper article, would be viewed much as sending a clipping to people. But overall, you nailed it on copyright. Once your information is out there in print, it can go anywhere.

So far as reviving the thread - I think anyone looking for a service dog would want to be aware of the controversies/disputes and their resolution with any business before spending the kind of money we are talking about.

I suspect that the attorney is a little late on getting brought on board. The businesswoman in question put herself on the air which is pretty out there. Don't think an attorney would have advised that.


----------



## ILGHAUS

> Originally there was a link...but it was also republished. No where on here does it specify that parts can be used...it says the material may NOT be republished without permission...I realize that in this case permission would have had to come from the newspaper...but either way....permission was never granted.


I did not remove the post because of copyright violation but as a courtesy to someone who requested their daughter's name to be removed from a post. If in doubt as to if a lawyer could have been called in please refer to the following, and this is a quote from the U.S. Copyright Office website:

*How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?*
Under the _fair use_ doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, _Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians_. ...

.... Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. ...

I hope this puts an end to the "why" the post was taken from public view.


----------



## ILGHAUS

Any dog being trained for SD work, just as with other work venue, needs to be health tested beyond a typical vet exam. 

With any mix or purebred inquire on the health testing of the breeding stock. Ask to see the health records of the individual dog that you are purchasing. 

Most of us here are pretty well up-to-date on the health issues of a GSD and know which tests should be run on a GSD SD candidate or SDIT but may not be aware of the more common health issues of other breeds or crosses.

Labradoodles as with any mix need to be tested for health problems of both parent stock - Labradors and Poodles. 
From the labrador parent can come hip & elbow dysplasia concerns
From the poodle side can be a problem with PRA / Progressive retinal atrophy
There has been a concern with Addison's Disease in this cross. 

If you are interested in reading more on health issues with this cross:
The Labrador Retriever The Labrador Retriever
The Poodle
Health Issues in Poodles


----------



## AbbyK9

> All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.
> 
> Originally there was a link...but it was also republished. No where on here does it specify that parts can be used...it says the material may NOT be republished without permission...I realize that in this case permission would have had to come from the newspaper...but either way....permission was never granted.


ILGHAUS has already pointed this out, but I would like to reiterate that US copyright law does make exceptions to this - these exceptions are the _Fair Use_ guidelines. 

Under US copyright law, it is considered fair use, and _not a violation of copyright_, to post _excerpts _of an article or written works. You do not need to ask permission to cite an article or quote an excerpt of the article, online or otherwise. 

It's only a violation of copyright law if the _entire _article is reposted without seeking permission first.



> it also states that the first generation is the healthiest of them all.


First generation mixes produce what veterinarians like to call "hybrid vigor", but whenever you produce first generation mixes, you _can not _guarantee which traits the puppies will inherit. 

The problem is that many -doodle breeders will breed only first-generation mixes and _claim _their dogs will be hypoallergenic (have the Poodle coat), when, in fact, no such claims can be made _unless they have bred enough generations to "breed true" to a standard_.



> This also states that any traits that both parents don't have in common can't be passed on to the pups.....so that means since both parents didn't have any of those problem traits that you mentioned...Kiara won't have any either.


Please note that this _is not true_. 

Even two parents who have excellent hips _can _produce puppies _who do not_. Just like two human parents with no known health problems can produce children who have inherited a genetic disorder that was possibly present in a grandparent or great-grand parent, or a disorder that requires a defective gene from _both _parents to be combined to present.

Unless a breeder studies the health testing of not only their breeding stock (dams and sires) but also the health tests and abilities of this stock's parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. etc. they can not reasonably claim that the puppy will be free of issues because its parents were.

For what it is worth, the originator of the Labradoodle breed publicly stated that he very much regretted ever having begun this trend since there are now so many bad breeders of these dogs out there. You can see an article about this here --> 
Labradoodle pioneer regrets fashioning 'designer dog' | The Australian


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## AutismDogGirl

wow thats really bad if they are placing untrained dogs and calling them service dogs! Isn't that ilegal?


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## Debbicia

ASDogGeek said:


> wow thats really bad if they are placing untrained dogs and calling them service dogs! Isn't that ilegal?



I just don't get it...the dogs are NOT being placed as service dogs...They are being placed as service dogs in training. TRAINING...


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## Debbicia

Dr89 said:


> It's like a vicious circle trying to get this point across
> 
> The fact they're breeding goldendoodle's is all one needs to know in order to call into question their breeding practices.


And they are NOT breeding golden doodles. The golden doodles are purchased fROM a breeder. Our dog is wonderful...She doesn't shed, has beautiful fur. She is a very large dog....large enough to support my daughter and to be able to be trained for water rescue. She loves my daughter and KNOWS that they are each others. She recently alerted to my daughters seizure when they were a couple blocks away at a neighborhood park. Due to the kind of seizures my daughter has, she can wander during a seizure while being very confused. Kiara started pacing in front of her close to her feet to keep her from walking and kept urging her to sit down. No sooner than my daughter sat down, her seizure began....bad enough for her to become unconscious. Someone that witnessed the whole thing, took my daughters phone and called 911. Kiara behaved well in the ambulance AND in the hospital....She amazes me everyday with how smart she is. We couldn't have found a more perfect fit with Tab and Kiara.


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## Debbicia

AbbyK9 said:


> Lastly, I want to specifically address this -
> 
> It is my understanding that you are located in Florida - is this correct?
> 
> If you are, in fact, located in Florida, you should be aware that Florida's animal laws make no specific provisions for Service Dogs in Training and their public access except for the following -
> 
> 
> 
> Full Florida statutes on Service Animals here --> Florida Assistance Animal/Guide Dog Laws
> 
> Please note that this applies only to actually being engaged in training. This means that the dog would actually be training very specific tasks, rather than simply accompanying the handler in public places (if those are places where pets are not normally allowed).
> 
> What does this mean? Well, it's the difference between making a quick run into a store to work on a specific Service Dog task with your Service Dog in Training and taking your dog shopping. The difference between popping into the outdoor seating area of a restaurant to work on specific commands and going into a restaurant to eat. In other words, the primary purpose for the dog's public access must be that the dog is actually being trained for its future service - not the purpose of socialization, for example, or just to bring the dog along.
> 
> Your dog, under the ADA and state law, is currently _not a Service Dog_, although she is alerting to your daughter's seizures by herself. She will not be a seizure alert / response dog until she has been trained _specific, demonstrable tasks _- at least three of them. (Be aware also that the law does not recognize seizure alert as a _trained, demonstrable task _because it is _not trained, _only reinforced behavior.)
> 
> Just some thoughts. And since you don't know me from Adam, I am absolutely, 100% an advocate for Service Dogs and their use.


When I pulled up the statutes you mentioned it states8) Any trainer of a service animal, while engaged in the training of such an animal, has the same rights and privileges with respect to access to public facilities and the same liability for damage as is provided for those persons described in subsection (3) accompanied by service animals.
subsection 3 states3) An individual with a disability has the right to be accompanied by a service animal in all areas of a public accommodation that the public or customers are normally permitted to occupy.
Based on those words, Training or not....she can accompany us in the same was as if she is completely trained. If I've missed something there, please let me knowl


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