# Ecollar on puppy for VERY specific behaviors?



## BePrepared

Okay, I have a 10 week old puppy who has a few very specific behaviors that I can't seem to condition out of him. These are pretty serious problems that I am uncomfortable letting go until he is old enough to respond to more classical training methods. 

In order of severity, here are the problems

1. Cat Harassment: He regularly harasses my cat, completely ignoring me when i reprimand him. The cat is very large (25lbs) so he is able to hold his own at the moment, but my pup doesn't seem to be making the necessary association between harassing the cat and getting scratched on the nose. Since my dog will eventually be well over 3 times the size of the cat, I want this behavior in check before he is able to do any severe harm

2. Eating poop from cat box: I have tried several different aversive methods for this, and he seems utterly oblivious to them. I had to move the cat box to an elevated area on the porch outside and as he gets taller, he's still trying to get into it. Within a few weeks, he'll be able to reach it. 

I do not plan to use the Ecollar as a primary training method, and I am familiar with the problems that misuse can create (Superstitious behavior, misdirected aversions, desensitizing) so I would like your opinions on using one to condition aversion to these specific behaviors.


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## Sarah~

Please don't put an e collar on a 10 week old puppy. He is very very young and that is excessive to say the least for such a young dog! 

I think training him to "leave it" with treats would help you a lot  How I did it was to hold a treat in one hand, and when my dog leans in to sniff and try to take it I say "leave it". When my dog moved away from the treat, even just turning their head away, I said "yes!" and gave them a treat I had hidden in the other hand. I never gave them the treat I said to leave alone. I don't explain things well maybe someone can come along and explain how to train leave it a bit better for me and maybe some more suggestions


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## BePrepared

my natural inclination is to think the same thing. The biggest reason this even occurred to me is that when i brought it up to my vet, he recommended i try an Ecollar. The cat is obviously the biggest problem. I'm not having any trouble with general training as you can see from the video I posted earlier, but this particular issue seems to be much harder to overcome.


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## lalachka

Lol, it's like I'm reading about my dog. 

What worked for me with litter boxes was turning them with the entrance of the litter box facing the wall. They're covered boxes, right? 

If not, get covered ones. Then turn the litterbox with the entry hole facing the wall and move it close to the wall with only a tiny opening between the box and the wall. The cat will be able to get in, you know they can get anywhere but the dog can't. 


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## BePrepared

lalachka said:


> Lol, it's like I'm reading about my dog.
> 
> What worked for me with litter boxes was turning them with the entrance of the litter box facing the wall. They're covered boxes, right?
> 
> If not, get covered ones. Then turn the litterbox with the entry hole facing the wall and move it close to the wall with only a tiny opening between the box and the wall. The cat will be able to get in, you know they can get anywhere but the dog can't.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes, the are covered, and i tried having it face the wall first. He just moved it. He's way too bloody smart for my own good  

His obedience training is going wonderfully well in general, but i can't do a dang thing about his tendency to chase the bloody cat. The vet said that conditioning huskies (he's half husky) not to chase "prey" requires some serious negative stimulus.


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## my boy diesel

get a new vet!
move litter box higher or put up a gate
keep pup on leash until he learns cat is off limits!


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## LookingForTheLight

My family dog, a cockapoo, used to always attack my cat. In fact I have a few videos. He loved chewing on the poop in the litter box as well. After just telling him no, and rewarding him with treats when he stopped he grew out of it in a few months. E Collar would not be a good idea for such a young puppy. Just tell him 'No', and keep working in those training classes. Problem will most likely fix itself.  Good luck.


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## Twyla

my boy diesel said:


> get a new vet!
> move litter box higher or put up a gate
> keep pup on leash until he learns cat is off limits!


^^^yes,yes and yes!!!

10 wk old puppy is still finding itself in the world. NO WAY should an ecollar be used on a pup this age.

Engaging the pup, training on a pup level, redirecting would be appropriate, not an ecollar.

For me, if a vet and/or trainer recommended an ecollar for a pup this age - I would be running the other way as soon as they said it.

Do a search on the forum, there are many who have cats and have successfully trained their dogs to ignore or behave correctly around a cat.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Are you sure the vet didn't mean an Elizabethan collar to slow the puppy down/make them unable to get into a litter box? I'm just trying to be positive.


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## LoveEcho

It's not that you can't condition these behaviors out of them, it's that he's a very young baby still. He is a toddler- he lacks impulse control. You've presumably had him for two weeks-- teaching a young puppy to be able to think before acting is a long process and takes a lot longer than that. As others have said, remove the opportunities and keep him tethered until it becomes ingrained that the cat is off limits.


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## Deno

There is no doubt training should start the day you bring your pup home. The e-collar is a fantastic tool for all facets of training.

I wouldn't recommend zapping the fire out of him just yet for the natural behavior he is exhibiting, but the e-collar "I think" can be used here.

You could use the buzzer and/or the vibrating mode to start off with. When ever he is doing something undesirable, throw a "NO" at him

in the form of a verbal brick, if he doesn't stop, instantly buzz and/or vibrate him, if he continues to do whatever instantly give him a muzzle correction. 

This should get his attention. I would think that after a little bit of this he will begin to understand that "NO" has negative consequences if not obeyed. 

And of course you praise and reward him instantly for making the right choice, training from both ends works best. Collars have different levels of corrections, 

with common sense you can have a near perfect pet that responds to "NO" for whatever 99.9 % of the time along with stopping any and all unwanted behavior. 

I know there may be some that are horrorifid by this advice, but the fact is common sense works.


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## Sarah~

It's just a puppy, an e collar is seriously over the top for 10 weeks old in my opinion. Overkill....


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## Liesje

I'm not sure how a remote collar would even fit on a 10 week old puppy...

If he's this young, he shouldn't be near the cat or cat box, how has he earned that amount of freedom in only 2 weeks? If he's harassing the cat, then he hasn't.


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## lalachka

BePrepared said:


> Yes, the are covered, and i tried having it face the wall first. He just moved it. He's way too bloody smart for my own good
> 
> 
> 
> His obedience training is going wonderfully well in general, but i can't do a dang thing about his tendency to chase the bloody cat. The vet said that conditioning huskies (he's half husky) not to chase "prey" requires some serious negative stimulus.



My thing weighs about 50 lbs. he hasn't moved them or maybe just lost interest. 


My dog still chases the cat a year later and fights with my other cat. I'm also losing my mind with it


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## lalachka

Deno said:


> There is no doubt training should start the day you bring your pup home. The e-collar is a fantastic tool for all facets of training.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend zapping the fire out of him just yet for the natural behavior he is exhibiting, but the e-collar "I think" can be used here.
> 
> You could use the buzzer and/or the vibrating mode to start off with. When ever he is doing something undesirable, throw a "NO" at him
> 
> in the form of a verbal brick, if he doesn't stop, instantly buzz and/or vibrate him, if he continues to do whatever instantly give him a muzzle correction.
> 
> This should get his attention. I would think that after a little bit of this he will begin to understand that "NO" has negative consequences if not obeyed.
> 
> And of course you praise and reward him instantly for making the right choice, training from both ends works best. Collars have different levels of corrections,
> 
> with common sense you can have a near perfect pet that responds to "NO" for whatever 99.9 % of the time along with stopping any and all unwanted behavior.
> 
> I know there may be some that are horrorifid by this advice, but the fact is common sense works.



Common sense is not using an Ecollar on a 10 week old


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## Shade

I use barriers to keep the dogs out of the kitty litter and also cat food, gates work great for that. That way I never have to worry about it ever

Use a leash around the house, each time the puppy wants to play with the cat you redirect to yourself using treats and toys. Right now the cat is more exciting, you need to up the ante and become the best thing in the entire world to the puppy. The 'bringer of ALL good things' as I like to call it, so each time the puppy wants to play he's looking to you not the cat. Work fun obedience into your daily routine and remember the key rule "a tired dog is a well behaved dog" - make sure the puppy is getting enough exercise (not forced) and mental stimulation during the day

I don't have an issue with an ecollar when used correctly, but a 10 week old is a BABY and mentally I doubt it will understand what you're trying to accomplish. Delgado's prey and play drives are very high and it took a bit but he lives with my two cats just fine. I never had to resort to anything nastier than a spray bottle of water only for his worst moments when it came to playing hard with the cats.


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## Chip18

It's a puppy!!!! Seriously, you can't stop a "puppy" from chasing a cat??? But now you're going to strap an E collar on him??? Good luck with that! You should also look up GSD rescues in your area so that you can pass him on when you can't handle the 85lb unstable monster you've created!

Maybe a reason more reasonable approach might be a better approach??

The cat/dog relationship there is only one rule, never allow the dog to chase the cat...ever!! Here are some links:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/132410-introducing-shepherd-cats.html


Leerburg | Introducing Dogs or Puppies into Homes with Cats

You should be working on stay! Stay means "Stay' put a drag leash on him tell him got to bed or "place" let the cat run around assuming the cat will get near him!

And if he dares to move, snatch him down and say 'STAY" stay means STAY!!"

And two for one training:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/426322-selzer-sitting-dog.html

I prefer to "outthink' my dog rather than grabbing for a "tool" out the gate!

14 years up to 5 dogs and 16 cats living together and "NEVER" a single cat/dog incident...so yeah.


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## wolfy dog

my boy diesel said:


> get a new vet!
> move litter box higher or put up a gate
> keep pup on leash until he learns cat is off limits!


Love this advice. And realize with a vet like this, who knows what he/she does to your dog when you are not there to supervise. Never let that puppy out of your sight as long as you use this clinic.
Dog training is not part of most vet's colleges curriculum.


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## Baillif

Just out of curiosity how many of you have personal experience with e collars and young puppies?


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## Jax08

Baillif said:


> Just out of curiosity how many of you have personal experience with e collars and young puppies?


Not me...but I have lots of experience with puppy cat box treat shopping and cat chasing.

Train, watch the puppy, let him mature. If you can't get the dog to stop chasing once he's older, then think about a correction collar like an e-collar. 

That's just my opinion based on my experience.


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## Baillif

Im not even going to bother.

There are some really pervasive myths regarding e collars they might as well be considered a necronomicon spell book capable of melting a dog and raising it into zombie form.

Reality of the situation is if properly used its one of the most effective and humane tools around even on a puppy. It isnt a bigger gun and shouldnt be viewed as such.


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## Jax08

Baillif said:


> Im not even going to bother.
> 
> .


OK???? Then why did you ask?


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## NancyJ

I do not but I know Lou Castle recommends not using one until 6 months of age. He addresses it here so who better can speak for him than himself?

Fit An Ecollar


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## Baillif

My point was everyone whos claiming it shouldnt be done has probably never even tried it and its basically no different from the people who bash the e collar as a tool but dont know how to use one.


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## martemchik

I'd like to know what the method would be to stop the dog from going after the cat or the cat poop with an ecollar.

The reason people are "flipping out" about putting it on a young puppy, to train it to not do these particular behaviors is that the insinuation is that a correction with a flat collar is not enough, and therefore the handler has decided they need something "more painful" to make the dog understand that what it's doing is wrong by just punishing it. Not by teaching and then punishing, but just by punishing, or in the case of chasing behavior, I like to call it paralyzing to make sure the dog just can't do the chasing behavior and hopefully it quickly learns to not chase so that it doesn't get the correction which paralyzed it earlier and prevented it from chasing.

When I read these types of "can I solve X with an ecollar" it's basically an evolution of an electric fence. People know how those work...they want to extend it to anywhere. And that's how I imagine the dog being taught to not do these behaviors...basically leading to an extremely confused dog and possibly one that is afraid to do anything because its not clear what the undesired behavior is since the desired behavior hasn't been taught. Works for most pets though...


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## lalachka

I go by what the big name trainers recommend. Watch ME Ecollar video. Forget about puppies, he doesn't even mention that, just watch how many times he says it in many different ways that ecollars should be used very carefully and that extensive work must be done before you slap one on and once you do the foundation work then you might find out you don't need the Ecollar anyway. 

And to top it all off, he says he can't show too many examples of Ecollar use on the video because his dogs don't have behaviors that might need ecollars. 

I heard all I needed to hear. And I have an Ecollar. Haven't used it almost at all. 


I don't need to experience putting one on a pup to know that I shouldn't. 



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## lalachka

Martemchik, the method is to zap on a 100 so the little sob doesn't think about it ever again (this is not towards the OP, by the way)

But anyone that doesn't agree just doesn't know how to do use it. 

You don't like cats? You just don't know how to cook them right...


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## Lilie

lalachka said:


> But anyone that doesn't agree just doesn't know how to do use it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Seriously? Maybe everyone one that doesn't agree have the ability to train their 10 week old puppies without the use of electricity.


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## lalachka

I was being sarcastic based on what someone else said. I thought it's obvious 


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## Jax08

Baillif said:


> My point was everyone whos claiming it shouldnt be done has probably never even tried it and its basically no different from the people who bash the e collar as a tool but dont know how to use one.



hmmm...so since your "I won't bother" post came after mine, was it in response to my post? I'm asking because I don't know the answer but it appears you were responding directly to me.

Are you assuming that I don't use e-collars or was bashing it because I've chosen a different way to deal with cat box browsing and chasing a different way?


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## Baillif

Was in response not to you but the cluster of responses that was going to happen


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## martemchik

No...I'm pretty sure that Lou Castle has a method to stop dogs from chasing wild life and such. I'm sure that can be used for cats. But I'd like to know/see if that's what the OP was going to use. Do I think 10 weeks is too young to be doing that to a puppy? Sure. But I'm in agreement with Baliff...I haven't done it, so I can't really bash it except for that I do think this is going to an extreme and in my mind, this is the electric fence idea to "teach" the dog to not cross the line at any cost.


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## Jax08

"Crittering" That's what Lou calls it.

And yes, zapping a dog that is going after a cat does work. I did it to a foster dobe who was fond of snatching them up for the kill.


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## jafo220

martemchik said:


> I'd like to know what the method would be to stop the dog from going after the cat or the cat poop with an ecollar.
> 
> The reason people are "flipping out" about putting it on a young puppy, to train it to not do these particular behaviors is that the insinuation is that a correction with a flat collar is not enough, and therefore the handler has decided they need something "more painful" to make the dog understand that what it's doing is wrong by just punishing it. Not by teaching and then punishing, but just by punishing, or in the case of chasing behavior, I like to call it paralyzing to make sure the dog just can't do the chasing behavior and hopefully it quickly learns to not chase so that it doesn't get the correction which paralyzed it earlier and prevented it from chasing.
> 
> When I read these types of "can I solve X with an ecollar" it's basically an evolution of an electric fence. People know how those work...they want to extend it to anywhere. And that's how I imagine the dog being taught to not do these behaviors...basically leading to an extremely confused dog and possibly one that is afraid to do anything because its not clear what the undesired behavior is since the desired behavior hasn't been taught. Works for most pets though...


No, I've been around both e-collars and electric fences and they are not alike. Electric fences are usually left for the dog to learn on their own by shocking methods. An e-collar is part of a training method and the stim is administered by a trainer. 

I think two weeks is a bit early and common sense tells me this. Other methods should be exhausted first.

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## lalachka

martemchik said:


> But I'm in agreement with Baliff...I haven't done it, so I can't really bash it



you don't have to try everything to know it's a bad idea. Sometimes you can take other people's word for it. You don't jump off a bridge, do you? Somehow you believed your parents on that one. 

And sometimes it's common sense. In this case it's both. But mostly listening to trainers that know what they're talking about. 


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## Jack's Dad

lalachka said:


> you don't have to try everything to know it's a bad idea. Sometimes you can take other people's word for it. You don't jump off a bridge, do you? Somehow you believed your parents on that one.
> 
> And sometimes it's common sense. In this case it's both. *But mostly listening to trainers that know what they're talking about. *
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Which ones would those be? How do you determine that?

Lots of people here become great trainers after a couple of months reading threads.


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## lalachka

jafo220 said:


> No, I've been around both e-collars and electric fences and they are not alike. Electric fences are usually left for the dog to learn on their own by shocking methods. An e-collar is part of a training method and the stim is administered by a trainer.
> 
> I think two weeks is a bit early and common sense tells me this. Other methods should be exhausted first.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Yep, other methods should be exhausted first. Itss a freaking baby, how much does it take to stop him??

Actually, one of my trainers said aomething I like, she said that I should be able to get the results I'm hoping for without the Ecollar. 

So I wanted to use the Ecollar for the cats (same situation lol) and she said that I should be able to achieve the results I'm hoping for with the prong. 


Keep in mins though, my dog has been doing this for over a year, I didn't pick up on it for months and by the time I realized it's a problem and that I did it all wrong it was a long time habit for him and one of the cats is antagonizing him and they fight for real. 


OP caught it at the very beginning. There's so much that can be done.


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## lalachka

Jack's Dad said:


> Which ones would those be? How do you determine that?
> 
> Lots of people here become great trainers after a couple of months reading threads.



MIchael Ellis is my number one. He's amazing and unfortunately I'm too far. But I have someone that trains with him that helps me over email and video. Not the same but better than what's out here. 


Overall, if I like their dogs ans their training philosophy (balance, not pure positive or pure force. Balanced based on a dog, custom) and I want my dog to be like theirs then I will listen. 


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## lalachka

Also, to me it's very important that my dog wants to train. I know I can force him into submission but I don't want to. 

For example, I've noticed that he yawns when I ask him to sit sometimes. So probably doesn't want to at that moment. This bothers me. I don't want him to be stressed. 

I've been very cautious about using the Ecollar. I don't know what I'm doing and there are too many chances to mess him up. 

If someone comes on a forum to ask about whether to use the Ecollar or not then I will assume they don't know what they're doing either and don't realize how easy it is to mess a dog up and that the Ecollar is not a magic tool. 


I can go on for days about this. I will stop here. 


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## lalachka

Jack's Dad said:


> Lots of people here become great trainers after a couple of months reading threads.



I just caught this 

Are you for real? Or sarcastic? You can read and learn A LOT but you will never be great without much hands on experience and that doesn't take a few months. 

Was this sarcasm?


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## martemchik

jafo220 said:


> No, I've been around both e-collars and electric fences and they are not alike. Electric fences are usually left for the dog to learn on their own by shocking methods. An e-collar is part of a training method and the stim is administered by a trainer.
> 
> I think two weeks is a bit early and common sense tells me this. Other methods should be exhausted first.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks for the explanation...now go back and figure out what I meant.

My point was, people think they work the same way. You don't have to tell me they're not the same. I've done my research. But the majority of people think they work the same way. Electric fence...I don't want my dog to cross this line, when he does, he gets shocked. After 3 times, he learns not to cross this line. Ecollar...I don't want my dog to eat cat poop. Everytime he sticks his face in the litter box, he gets shocked. After 3 times, he learns not to stick his face in the litter box.


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## Baillif

Uninformed "instincts" don't mean squat


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## Jack's Dad

lalachka said:


> I just caught this
> 
> Are you for real? Or sarcastic? You can read and learn A LOT but you will never be great without much hands on experience and that doesn't take a few months.
> 
> Was this sarcasm?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes it was sarcasm but if I had to explain it the affect is gone.









The trainer I use practically lives in No. Calif, at Michael Ellis or one of his partners seminars or trainings. So I agree ME is a great trainer.

My concern on the forum is people start with beliefs before learning training and dismiss different types of training or equipment that they no nothing about.

Never bother to see if their beliefs are rational with regard to dogs in general and GSDs as a breed.


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## lalachka

I'm not dismissing the Ecollar. Great tool but if you're going to use it the right way there's much work to be done with the dog before you do (going by ME's video) and at 10 weeks nothing much could've been done with the dog. 


But yeah, I have no experience at all. So maybe I shouldn't say anything. But I can't imagine a scenario where using an Ecollar on a pup is justified. 

If I'm wrong then sorry. Not the first time dumb advice has been given on this board. 

My trainer is amazing. I can only wish she was here but she's amazingly responsive and so knowledgeable. She trains with the best of them, Michael, Ivan and I don't know who else. I can't say enough good things about her. 


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## lalachka

Jack's dad. So you'd put an Ecollar on a 4 month old pup (for example)?
To fix what? 


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## Jack's Dad

lalachka said:


> Jack's dad. So you'd put an Ecollar on a 4 month old pup (for example)?
> To fix what?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No I would not put an e-collar on a 4 month old. 

I have only used an e-collar on my 2.5 year old for off leash recall and may try it on Jack for the same thing. Jack & Zena both have very high prey drives and there is nothing much more exciting than a deer. 

I'm not opposed to people who know what they are doing and who have experience with e-collars training with them. 

In this case it sounds like the OP is not experienced and that could create worse problems. The OP,s puppy is doing what puppies do.

By the way my posts weren't directed to you or at you, They were in general and I should have been more clear.


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## Steve Strom

Baillif said:


> My point was everyone whos claiming it shouldnt be done has probably never even tried it and its basically no different from the people who bash the e collar as a tool but dont know how to use one.


 Well, I have experience with 10wk old puppies. I have experience with ecollars. I instinctively knew they shouldn't be mixed and that's been verified now by Lou Castle's article. But there's always the chance I missed something along the way, so help me out. What exactly did you accomplish with an e collar on a 10wk old puppy?


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## lalachka

Jack's dad

We are on the same page then. I bought the Ecollar for the same reason, to proof recall and to stop chasing the cats. 

And I agree with everything you're saying. I'm not against it at all, I bought one. But I don't think people realize that it's not a magic tool, there's much to learn and much work to be done before you use the Ecollar. 

If it wasn't directed at me then OK))))) 


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## BePrepared

martemchik said:


> I'd like to know what the method would be to stop the dog from going after the cat or the cat poop with an ecollar.
> 
> The reason people are "flipping out" about putting it on a young puppy, to train it to not do these particular behaviors is that the insinuation is that a correction with a flat collar is not enough, and therefore the handler has decided they need something "more painful" to make the dog understand that what it's doing is wrong by just punishing it. Not by teaching and then punishing, but just by punishing, or in the case of chasing behavior, I like to call it paralyzing to make sure the dog just can't do the chasing behavior and hopefully it quickly learns to not chase so that it doesn't get the correction which paralyzed it earlier and prevented it from chasing.
> 
> When I read these types of "can I solve X with an ecollar" it's basically an evolution of an electric fence. People know how those work...they want to extend it to anywhere. And that's how I imagine the dog being taught to not do these behaviors...basically leading to an extremely confused dog and possibly one that is afraid to do anything because its not clear what the undesired behavior is since the desired behavior hasn't been taught. Works for most pets though...



Holy crap this thread got popular quick... I'm going to address several things that i've read so far, and hopefully answer a few of the more relevant questions. 

1. The reason i think an ecollar might be useful, specifically for the cat, is that there's no way to get my hands on the dog when he goes cat chasing, and he doesn't respond to verbal commands at all. I do NOT need a more painful method of training, and would NEVER use an ecollar as a pain giving device. I would use it to get his attention, and condition him not to see the cat as a toy. Pain is not needed to teach a puppy, but attention IS. 

2. The most likely scenario IF i go this route (my inclination at the moment is to seriously reconsider), is that i'd use the vibration feature almost exclusively, simply to get his attention. If i do use the shock feature it will be on a VERY low setting. Getting his attention should be sufficient to achieve the desired result. 

3. My dog is NEVER left alone with my cat. That will not change until i am absolutely CERTAIN that he will never be a threat, and since he's half husky, i may never be that sure. 

4. If you've watched the video I posted earlier, you know that I am not a stranger to dog training. This is my first INSIDE dog, so there are challenges that I have never encountered before. I almost never use negative conditioning methods, and i don't intend to use an ecollar as negative stimulus while he's young. I need it exclusively to get his attention long enough to respond to a "Come" command. 

5. I am not experienced with Ecollars, so if i do get one, I will be reading extensively on proper use. I'm not just going to randomly strap it on, and play electric-god. I am fully aware of how much damage can be done to a dogs psyche by misusing one, and i take that VERY seriously. 

6. Waiting until my dog is older to condition him to avoid attacking the cat is a VERY high risk decision. He's half Husky, so his prey drive is incredibly high. If i teach him early that attacking the cat is simply not an option, it's much more likely to stick later in life when he's really able to hurt the cat. This is the ONLY reason i'm even considering this. Eating poop is annoying, but i wouldn't use such extreme methods for that alone. 

7. This one might be controversial. I'm a trained psychologist. This is certainly not comparable to a dog trainer in most respects, but i am extensively trained in the use of aversive stimulus for conditioning. The principles are not much different with dogs. I am aware of my ignorance though, which is why I asked.


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## Steve Strom

> 7. This one might be controversial. I'm a trained psychologist. This is certainly not comparable to a dog trainer in most respects, but i am extensively trained in the use of aversive stimulus for conditioning. The principles are not much different with dogs. I am aware of my ignorance though, which is why I asked.


 Read the Lou Castle article. The odds of it making any sense to a 10wk old puppy are less then slim and none with an ecollar. Use a leash and better management for now.


----------



## NancyJ

At a very young age I wanted my pup to learn not to chase other animals as he has to be reliable offlead in the woods and on farms. *The exposure was 100% controlled and on lead*. I sat on the ground in the middle of a chicken/goat pen with him on a lead and a hungry belly armed with treats and toys. Chickens are quite interesting with the noises, smells, and cackles...and the goats were both inquisitive and a bit fearful/reactive.

Every-time he showed an interest in them, I would redirect his attention to me with puppy puppy puppy tug and treat or toy play. We just spent enough time that they became uninteresting. The dog is a working dog with good prey drive but I directed it to the ball from day one. By 11 weeks he was reliable at retrieving. [husky may present some problems that way......but he learned the ONLY thing that is fun to chase is a toy that comes from me]...it really did not involve a lot of punishment.

Got a cat this November-he was 2. Spent two months before I trusted him off lead with her. Did not want the cat correcting him. He spent a lot of time onlead in a down stay in the presence of the cat or on his "place" - both of which were trained by then. Now he is very reliable and does not think to play with or chase her. Well, he does try to get her to play.....when she is laying down....he will drop his toy by her and sometimes she swats it it and he brings it back to her and drops it again. I need to get a video but my trying to film it interrupts the activity . There is no play wrestling or biting even offered.


----------



## martemchik

Great explanation!!! And hopefully you know I wasn't challenging you, but that's what I think every time someone posts one of these threads.

The only hole I find in your idea/plan is that the puppy will not know that a buzz or a minor shock is meant to give YOU attention. The dog has no idea where the shock is coming from, just that it is. If you work on teaching him his name means he looks at you, and then use your method...it might work. But if you can't get his attention by saying his name, you're just punishing for something he doesn't understand.

That's how I've read the ecollar should be used. The dog needs to respond to it's name...you teach the dog that when you say its name, it looks at you and waits for the actual command...so in a recall, the ecollar helps because if the dog is out of range for you to say its name, a buzz is substituted for that.

The way you plan on doing it, although it sounds humane, seems like it would greatly confuse the dog. Unless you're able to correct *THE MOMEMENT* the dog starts chasing the cat, you could start to correct for other things. Like...dog chases cat into the kitchen, you realize it just as the dog is crossing into the kitchen, and give a correction. Dog thinks...I go into kitchen, I get shocked. Learns to not go into kitchen. Chases cat into hallway...same thing happens. Learns not to go into hallway.

Corrections, especially with the ecollar, are all about timing. That's mainly why the ecollar is used...the correction is so exact, and can be timed super well...way better than with anything else...even a prong has a delay, by the time you realize the dog has done something wrong, your brain tells your arm to correct, you move the leash enough to get it tight and to correct...all precious seconds.

Read jocoyns explanation...to do this, you have to control the interactions...and the only way to do that with an ecollar is to follow your dog around like a hawk...so why not just do it with a leash if you have to be there anyways?


----------



## BePrepared

martemchik said:


> Great explanation!!! And hopefully you know I wasn't challenging you, but that's what I think every time someone posts one of these threads.
> 
> The only hole I find in your idea/plan is that the puppy will not know that a buzz or a minor shock is meant to give YOU attention. The dog has no idea where the shock is coming from, just that it is. If you work on teaching him his name means he looks at you, and then use your method...it might work. But if you can't get his attention by saying his name, you're just punishing for something he doesn't understand.
> 
> That's how I've read the ecollar should be used. The dog needs to respond to it's name...you teach the dog that when you say its name, it looks at you and waits for the actual command...so in a recall, the ecollar helps because if the dog is out of range for you to say its name, a buzz is substituted for that.
> 
> The way you plan on doing it, although it sounds humane, seems like it would greatly confuse the dog. Unless you're able to correct *THE MOMEMENT* the dog starts chasing the cat, you could start to correct for other things. Like...dog chases cat into the kitchen, you realize it just as the dog is crossing into the kitchen, and give a correction. Dog thinks...I go into kitchen, I get shocked. Learns to not go into kitchen. Chases cat into hallway...same thing happens. Learns not to go into hallway.
> 
> Corrections, especially with the ecollar, are all about timing. That's mainly why the ecollar is used...the correction is so exact, and can be timed super well...way better than with anything else...even a prong has a delay, by the time you realize the dog has done something wrong, your brain tells your arm to correct, you move the leash enough to get it tight and to correct...all precious seconds.



These are all very good points. 

First, the key to using it the way my instincts tell me it would have to work is simply (at the beginning) as an interrupt. Something to de-escalate the situation, causing him to stop what he's doing, thus allowing me to GET his attention. Obviously timing matters a LOT here, as i can't have him relate me calling his name with a shock. That's pretty much worst case scenario

Second, you're absolutely right that it won't work unless it occurs precisely when the aggression toward the cat begins. Fortunately, the dog is restricted to the living room and only out of his kennel when i'm in the room, so i can carefully monitor it and link the response to his interaction with the cat. I will have to be VERY cautious to avoid secondary associations. Had i not posted this thread, it's very unlikely that I would have realized that until it was too late. 

I don't want to sound like I've decided what i'm going to do. I haven't. I'm still taking in information.


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## Bear L

If you just want something to get his attention, you can try blowing a whistle, shaking a can with coins, making an abrupt high pitch noise, throwing something at him, or even an air horn. Or... do it the good old way that's reliable - keep him on a line for him to drag around so you can grab it when he chases and put him in time out. Take the fun out when he chases and he'll stop.


----------



## BePrepared

Bear L said:


> If you just want something to get his attention, you can try blowing a whistle, shaking a can with coins, making an abrupt high pitch noise, throwing something at him, or even an air horn. Or... do it the good old way that's reliable - keep him on a line for him to drag around so you can grab it when he chases and put him in time out. Take the fun out when he chases and he'll stop.


This was actually suggested on the Husky forum that i am also part of. I have already decided to try this before doing anything more drastic. Bought a leash today for just this purpose. 

Good suggestion!


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## Jack's Dad

Doing what you have suggested could make the dog e-collar smart. In that case the dog would not chase the cat when the collar is on but watch out when the collar is off.









I think my girl, that I use the collar on for recall, is collar smart but I don't care because she only has it on when we are off leash out in the sticks somewhere.


----------



## Lilie

jocoyn said:


> At a very young age I wanted my pup to learn not to chase other animals as he has to be reliable offlead in the woods and on farms. *The exposure was 100% controlled and on lead*. I sat on the ground in the middle of a chicken/goat pen with him on a lead and a hungry belly armed with treats and toys. Chickens are quite interesting with the noises, smells, and cackles...and the goats were both inquisitive and a bit fearful/reactive.
> 
> Every-time he showed an interest in them, I would redirect his attention to me with puppy puppy puppy tug and treat or toy play. We just spent enough time that they became uninteresting. The dog is a working dog with good prey drive but I directed it to the ball from day one. By 11 weeks he was reliable at retrieving. [husky may present some problems that way......but he learned the ONLY thing that is fun to chase is a toy that comes from me]...it really did not involve a lot of punishment.
> 
> Got a cat this November-he was 2. Spent two months before I trusted him off lead with her. Did not want the cat correcting him. He spent a lot of time onlead in a down stay in the presence of the cat or on his "place" - both of which were trained by then. Now he is very reliable and does not think to play with or chase her. Well, he does try to get her to play.....when she is laying down....he will drop his toy by her and sometimes she swats it it and he brings it back to her and drops it again. I need to get a video but my trying to film it interrupts the activity . There is no play wrestling or biting even offered.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Chip18

OMG this is getting silly! It's a freaking puppy!!! The day I can't outhink a puppy, is the day I stop working with dogs! Put a freaking leash on him tell him down and stay! If he moves step on the leash, snatch his butt to the ground and say 'STAY" problem solved!


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## BePrepared

Chip18 said:


> OMG this is getting silly! It's a freaking puppy!!! The day I can't outhink a puppy, is the day I stop working with dogs! Put a freaking leash on him tell him down and stay! If he moves step on the leash, snatch his butt to the ground and say 'STAY" problem solved!


Okay, as much as i hate to sound snide, do you notice how other people are being helpful WITHOUT attitude? Maybe you could give that a shot?


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## lalachka

Someone suggested a can with coins. Don't do it. It was suggested to me, made sense, I did it twice and now my boy is scared of all loud sounds. I should've asked my trainer before doing this. It's taking a lot of work to undo this and not working that well. 


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## robk

This is an easy problem to fix.
Step one; Get rid of cat.

Step two; No, wait, there is no step two.


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## Chip18

BePrepared said:


> Okay, as much as i hate to sound snide, do you notice how other people are being helpful WITHOUT attitude? Maybe you could give that a shot?














Well I was! Post 17, it got worse since then! It's a puppy! Lou Castle says..uh NO! Good enough for me! 

I also listed my experience and in this regard, yes I do know what I am talking about! OP asked what we thought now they know! Yes if properly "applied" an E collar can stop this! Lou Castle says "no" that would be good enough for me!


----------



## selzer

Baillif said:


> My point was everyone whos claiming it shouldnt be done has probably never even tried it and its basically no different from the people who bash the e collar as a tool but dont know how to use one.


I haven't tried holding my dog's paw to the stove burner either, but I can have an opinion on whether that is inappropriate.

To the OP: if you have had the dog for 2 weeks, you haven't managed to stop a behavior yet because you aren't patient enough. the dog is a puppy. Keep him away from the cat box if you do not want to smell the kitty litter flavor of puppy breath. 

Put your pup on a leash and do not let him chase the cat. 

The puppy is used to running and playing with his littermates. They can play rough at times. And he is lonely. And the cat is there. You can't play like a puppy, but the cat might be able to, so the puppy is trying to engage the cat. If you do not want to encourage this behavior, PLAY WITH YOUR PUPPY when he is trying to harrass the cat.


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## Baillif

Have you ever zapped yourself with an ecollar on the highest setting?


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## Deno

Chip18 said:


> OMG this is getting silly! It's a freaking puppy!!! The day I can't outhink a puppy, is the day I stop working with dogs! Put a freaking leash on him tell him down and stay! If he moves step on the leash, snatch his butt to the ground and say 'STAY" problem solved!


 
Problem Solved, surely you jest.....


----------



## zyppi

didn't read all responses, but my take is that he's just a normal puppy!

Issues are really not serious.

let cat hold it's own and they might end up as best of friend.


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## Deno

Baillif said:


> Have you ever zapped yourself with an ecollar on the highest setting?


 
I could never do that, just like my dogs, I hate electricity and I will do anything to stay away from it..


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## BePrepared

Okay folks, here's the direction I went. 

I went to Petsmart, and did a little research. I found a collar that has Tone, Vibrate, and shock settings. I bought it. 

I have the shock setting down as low as it will go, and do not plan to use it at all for some time, but in the hour that i've had the collar on my puppy, i have already conditioned him (with NO SHOCK) to come as soon as he hears the beep on the collar with no verbal command from me. He started barking at the cat a bit ago, and bouncing around like he usually does. One push of the tone button stopped him dead and brought him running to my side. 

It may be as simple as that. He might never need to be shocked. This also gives me an option to prepare him for off leash excursions in a few months. 

I haven't had to use the vibrate feature yet, so i can't comment on what that will do, but so far, i'm happy with the results. 

My plan is to not use the shock at all until he's at least 4 months old, assuming the behavior toward the cat doesn't become overtly aggressive. We shall see how it turns out. Hopefully the vibrate feature will act as a sufficient interrupt in the event that he needs more than just the tone.


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## Baillif

Probably wont end well. If youre gonna go with a collar at least get a quality one


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## Chip18

Deno said:


> Problem Solved, surely you jest.....


My experience my dogs. Again up to 5 dogs, 16 cats and more than a 14yrs of cat/dogs living together in harmony!

Rocky GSD, came into the house at 7 months old and 60 pounds (WL OS GSD) don't recall ever having a cat/dog issue with him?? I make it crystal clear to "my" dogs...you will not screw with the cats period, end of story!!

So for "me" anyway yeah, simple as that!


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## Deno

I will take your word for it, but I wouldn't think it would be that easy for most.


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## selzer

BePrepared said:


> Okay folks, here's the direction I went.
> 
> I went to Petsmart, and did a little research. I found a collar that has Tone, Vibrate, and shock settings. I bought it.
> 
> I have the shock setting down as low as it will go, and do not plan to use it at all for some time, but in the hour that i've had the collar on my puppy, i have already conditioned him (with NO SHOCK) to come as soon as he hears the beep on the collar with no verbal command from me. He started barking at the cat a bit ago, and bouncing around like he usually does. One push of the tone button stopped him dead and brought him running to my side.
> 
> It may be as simple as that. He might never need to be shocked. This also gives me an option to prepare him for off leash excursions in a few months.
> 
> I haven't had to use the vibrate feature yet, so i can't comment on what that will do, but so far, i'm happy with the results.
> 
> My plan is to not use the shock at all until he's at least 4 months old, assuming the behavior toward the cat doesn't become overtly aggressive. We shall see how it turns out. Hopefully the vibrate feature will act as a sufficient interrupt in the event that he needs more than just the tone.


I love my dogs.


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## BePrepared

Baillif said:


> Probably wont end well. If youre gonna go with a collar at least get a quality one


it damned sure wasn't cheap, and the reviews are excellent. I didn't buy the cheapest one they had.


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## selzer

Baillif said:


> Have you ever zapped yourself with an ecollar on the highest setting?


Nah, out of the dozens of dogs I've trained, I haven't yet had to resort to an e-collar. Now even baby puppies cannot be managed without them. I am in awe.


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## selzer

BePrepared said:


> it damned sure wasn't cheap, and the reviews are excellent. I didn't buy the cheapest one they had.


It's over-priced junk like everything else PetsMart sells. If you did any research at all you would have bought something over the internet, probably for less money. 

But, people today want everything this second. They cannot wait for a product to be shipped to them, and they cannot wait for a puppy to respond to proper training.


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## Lucy Dog

BePrepared said:


> it damned sure wasn't cheap, and the reviews are excellent. I didn't buy the cheapest one they had.


It is. I'd never even consider putting an e-collar on a 10 week old puppy for any reason, let alone the things you're using them for, but if you're going to get one, use quality equipment. Either a dogtra or an einstein. I don't think petsmart sells either.


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## Baillif

You mean you're making statements about a tool you never use like you're an expert on it right? 

Nobody's saying the tool is needed. I can dig a hole in the dirt with my hands. Id rather have a shovel.


----------



## selzer

Baillif said:


> You mean you're making statements about a tool you never use like you're an expert on it right?
> 
> Nobody's saying the tool is needed. I can dig a hole in the dirt with my hands. Id rather have a shovel.


I have never put a prong on a 10 week old puppy either. I know how to raise puppies, it doesn't include shock collars. There is just no place in training when it comes to 10 week old puppies for e-collars. Sorry. And as for PetsMart, they can't even sell a quality pooper scooper. Go find someone who cares to call out on stuff.


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## BePrepared

selzer said:


> Nah, out of the dozens of dogs I've trained, I haven't yet had to resort to an e-collar. Now even baby puppies cannot be managed without them. I am in awe.



Yeah, i get it... you disapprove. Fair enough. 

I found a solution that doesn't seem to require any shocking, and i'm quite happy with it. You do your thing, i'll do mine

as for the type of collar, would anyone care to make a recommendation? This is the one i bought, but i can return it any time, so long as i find one that has a tone and vibrate function. 

http://www.petsmart.com/dog/remote-...6-5140808/cat-36-catid-100128?_t=pfm=category


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## Steve Strom

Baillif said:


> You mean you're making statements about a tool you never use like you're an expert on it right?
> 
> Nobody's saying the tool is needed. I can dig a hole in the dirt with my hands. Id rather have a shovel.


Hey Baillif, last time you used one on a 10wk old puppy, how'd it go?


----------



## Chip18

Deno said:


> I will take your word for it, but I wouldn't think it would be that easy for most.


Well the Op seems to have found a solution that works for her, so job done and good luck!

To the above, some folks are better at somethings than others! I'm a Boxer guy, two female Boxers in a household is a big "NO!" A different breed maybe?? Boxer and Buddies policy is to "Not" place female Boxer in a home with another Boxer period a different maybe??

I saw my baby girl nut over baby kittens with my Bull Mastiff/APBT/Lab mix!!! She felt he was getting to excited! I have broken up a fight between a GSD and Dobbie. Not my dogs neighbor was going to get a gun!! I grabbed a hose..problem solved!

Still I have never seen anything like my baby girl when she went after Gunther!! I have never seen a dog move that fast!!!

If that happened with a female/female Boxer rescue??? You can bet that dog would be in the car and back to the shelter within minuets!! 

Nonetheless, there are people who have multiple female house holds. Females when they don't like each other...they don't play, regardless of breed! There are folks on here who have multiple female GSD households?

They are better than me! I will "never" have a multi female dog household period! Doesn't mean it can't be done!


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## Lucy Dog

BePrepared said:


> as for the type of collar, would anyone care to make a recommendation? This is the one i bought, but i can return it any time, so long as i find one that has a tone and vibrate function.
> 
> PetSafe® Elite Little Dog Remote Trainer | Remote Training | PetSmart


Read through Lou Castle's site. Top to bottom. 

How To...

General


----------



## selzer

BePrepared said:


> Yeah, i get it... you disapprove. Fair enough.
> 
> I found a solution that doesn't seem to require any shocking, and i'm quite happy with it. You do your thing, i'll do mine
> 
> as for the type of collar, would anyone care to make a recommendation? This is the one i bought, but i can return it any time, so long as i find one that has a tone and vibrate function.
> 
> PetSafe® Elite Little Dog Remote Trainer | Remote Training | PetSmart


You like the way that terv was trained that MaggieRoseLee posted? Well, it did not get that way with an e-collar. If you want to train a dog like that, you have to have more patience than to say a ten week old puppy can't be conditioned out of something.


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## robk

I don't see why the vitriol against pets mart. They are not the issue. Collar, no Collar...Meh,
Get rid of the cat. Cats are the real problem. Probably never should have been domesticated in the first place. Evil Spawn of Satan sent as a tempter to man's best friend.


----------



## gsdsar

robk said:


> I don't see why the vitriol against pets mart. They are not the issue. Collar, no Collar...Meh,
> 
> Get rid of the cat. Cats are the real problem. Probably never should have been domesticated in the first place. Evil Spawn of Satan sent as a tempter to man's best friend.



Totally off topic, love the use of "vitriol" not used enough I think. 

As for the rest. Yeah. I have cats, these are my last. Love them. Don't want more. 

Of course one of my cats is actually called "spawn of satan". He is so evil my dogs protect visitors from him. 

Back to OP. I am glad you found a solution that works for you. It would not have been my decision, but if you are comfortable and the dog is ok, then that's what counts. I would be pairing the "tone" with a voice correct toon if some sort. "Eh" "no" something, so that you can wean the pup off the collar if possible. Same thing as clicker training. Use it with a marker word and soon the word will be what's needed. 

I would look into the Einstein collars. I have not used one, but I hear good things about them. When I buy one, and I will, that will be the brand. For no real educated reason. LOL. 


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## onyx'girl

You have a baby puppy. This age is LEARNING/SPONGE. Why would you think an ecollar is the next step in teaching a BABY to learn to control itself with a cat in presence? 
Set him up for success, remove the cookie box. Put up gates so the cat has a safe zone.

I am all for ecollars when necessary. But IMO, this situation you've posted is not ready for such measures with a 10 week old puppy.
Patience is a virtue...handler patience. Let your puppy learn first.


----------



## Chip18

robk said:


> I don't see why the vitriol against pets mart. They are not the issue. Collar, no Collar...Meh,
> Get rid of the cat. Cats are the real problem. Probably never should have been domesticated in the first place. Evil Spawn of Satan sent as a tempter to man's best friend.


Hmm OK. Well snide comments aside. The OP did find a solution that works for her. Majority opinion (as well as some experts) seems to be clearly against it!

Personally I don't consider this an E collar debate myself. I saw a you tube with K9's work on a dog and personally 'AS A BULLY GUY' I would not be pleased with that dogs new temperament!

I would like to get the opinion of experts and I will post the video but not here! Sooo to continue with this (now) train wreck of a thread..Cats...either you get them or you don't! As I {seem) to like to say, it's pretty much as simple as that!


----------



## Deno

BePrepared said:


> Yeah, i get it... you disapprove. Fair enough.
> 
> I found a solution that doesn't seem to require any shocking, and i'm quite happy with it. You do your thing, i'll do mine
> 
> as for the type of collar, would anyone care to make a recommendation? This is the one i bought, but i can return it any time, so long as i find one that has a tone and vibrate function.
> 
> PetSafe® Elite Little Dog Remote Trainer | Remote Training | PetSmart


 
I am usually in the camp of you get what you pay for. But I am hear to tell you there are exceptions to this rule and the Pet Ed version I have 
is the perfect example. It has everything the top of the lines ones have and maybe more in some cases and it was only $79.00.

I have had it for around 2 years or so and it works perfect and stays charged forever.

I like money and I love value.


----------



## Muskeg

It seems to me that overall you have unrealistic expectations of a 10 week old puppy. Also unrealistic expectations, perhaps, for a husky. You want a remote control dog? You might be able to get there, starting now, but I simply don't see it ending well. 

If you are going to e-collar train, please, watch both these videos several times. This trainer combines methods of M. Ellis, Lou Castle and Bart Bellon and describes the best way to start attention/recall training with e-collar, and he also covers aversion training.


----------



## BePrepared

onyx'girl said:


> You have a baby puppy. This age is LEARNING/SPONGE. Why would you think an ecollar is the next step in teaching a BABY to learn to control itself with a cat in presence?
> Set him up for success, remove the cookie box. Put up gates so the cat has a safe zone.
> 
> I am all for ecollars when necessary. But IMO, this situation you've posted is not ready for such measures with a 10 week old puppy.
> Patience is a virtue...handler patience. Let your puppy learn first.


Okay, this i can understand, and i haven't disagreed with any of the 20 people who have said it, BUT an ecollar doesn't have to just be used as a shock tool. Having what is effectively a clicker that can be heard from up to 400 yards away, through every wall in my house, is incredibly useful. This collar has a setting which puts the shock at Zero... that's what mine's set at and will probably stay that way until i start outdoor/off leash training. 

This is a compromise for me that lets me have something that he can't readily ignore stuck to him wherever he might be. It still requires training him to respond to it consistently, but it seems to be working in ways that the clicker never did. He comes IMMEDIATELY when he hears the tone, whereas he was completely ignoring my calls.


----------



## lalachka

If will not stay at 0. Pretty soon your dog will realize that the sound and the vibration is nothing to be scared of and will ignore it. 

You got so much good advice here. I can only wish that I can go back to when my dog was 10 weeks so I can do what's listed here. You have every chance of fixing this without using any force at all. 

Using force on a pup this young won't end well. 


ETA he will learn to ignore the sound and the vibration the same way he learned to ignore your voice. 

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## BePrepared

lalachka said:


> If will not stay at 0. Pretty soon your dog will realize that the sound and the vibration is nothing to be scared of and will ignore it.
> 
> You got so much good advice here. I can only wish that I can go back to when my dog was 10 weeks so I can do what's listed here. You have every chance of fixing this without using any force at all.
> 
> Using force on a pup this young won't end well.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think you're misunderstanding me... i don't plan to use the tone as a reprimand. I plan to use it as the exact same thing you use a clicker for. A positively associated attention getter. I'm currently associating it with positive reinforcement (IE treats) when he obeys commands. 

As far as i'm concerned, it's just a long range clicker.


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## Steve Strom

I've never used a clicker to get their attention. Only as a signal that they are correct at that exact moment. Did you use the clicker as just a noise to get his attention?


----------



## gsdsar

BePrepared said:


> I think you're misunderstanding me... i don't plan to use the tone as a reprimand. I plan to use it as the exact same thing you use a clicker for. A positively associated attention getter. I'm currently associating it with positive reinforcement (IE treats) when he obeys commands.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as i'm concerned, it's just a long range clicker.



I think this is fine, just like if you were training a deaf puppy. You need something to get their attention. 

I don't think using a true stim is ever appropriate on this young if a baby. But if it being used like a leash pop, then I don't see an issue. It's a tone, like a "no" or a "eh" just something that gets his attention. As long as his attention is rewarded and play with ensues, what's the difference? IMHO


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----------



## Lucy Dog

BePrepared said:


> I think you're misunderstanding me... i don't plan to use the tone as a reprimand. I plan to use it as the exact same thing you use a clicker for. A positively associated attention getter. I'm currently associating it with positive reinforcement (IE treats) when he obeys commands.
> 
> As far as i'm concerned, it's just a long range clicker.


If that's the case, why not just buy some cheap $1 plastic whistle or something similar? Why waste $200 to make a beeping sound? It's your money, but there are cheaper ways to make the sound beep or alert a dog from a distance. Just whistle and treat if that's what works for a recall.


----------



## BePrepared

Steve Strom said:


> I've never used a clicker to get their attention. Only as a signal that they are correct at that exact moment. Did you use the clicker as just a noise to get his attention?


I have consistently (with the 3 other dogs i've trained) used the clicker as an associated positive stimulus which can be used to draw attention. If you associate it with food, or other positive reinforcers, the animal will respond when he hears it precisely like he would if you were offering him an actual treat that he wants.


----------



## BePrepared

Lucy Dog said:


> If that's the case, why not just buy some cheap $1 plastic whistle or something similar? Why waste $200 to make a beeping sound? It's your money, but there are cheaper ways to make the sound beep or alert a dog from a distance. Just whistle and treat if that's what works for a recall.


primarily because i want the option to continue using it later when i do off-leash training, and i want the collar itself associated with positive stimulus. Having a few months of positive reinforcement where the tone has already been associated positively, will make the stim that much more useful if I decide to use it for further training in the future

that, and i have the money


----------



## Steve Strom

BePrepared said:


> I have consistently (with the 3 other dogs i've trained) used the clicker as an associated positive stimulus which can be used to draw attention. If you associate it with food, or other positive reinforcers, the animal will respond when he hears it precisely like he would if you were offering him an actual treat that he wants.


Yeah, ok. I guess I just fall into the listen to my voice camp, but thats not a big deal. Just a different goal.


----------



## Lucy Dog

BePrepared said:


> primarily because i want the option to continue using it later when i do off-leash training, and i want the collar itself associated with positive stimulus. Having a few months of positive reinforcement where the tone has already been associated positively, will make the stim that much more useful if I decide to use it for further training in the future
> 
> that, and i have the money


I'd buy a better collar if you plan on actually using it for anything other than a beep. You've got the money - buy a quality product if that time ever comes.


----------



## lalachka

BePrepared said:


> I think you're misunderstanding me... i don't plan to use the tone as a reprimand. I plan to use it as the exact same thing you use a clicker for. A positively associated attention getter. I'm currently associating it with positive reinforcement (IE treats) when he obeys commands.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as i'm concerned, it's just a long range clicker.



Clickers are used to mark a behavior you like, not to get their attention. 

So I guess you're using it as a long distance attention getter.
There will come a time when you tone him and he will ignore you. What then?




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----------



## lalachka

Steve Strom said:


> I've never used a clicker to get their attention. Only as a signal that they are correct at that exact moment. Did you use the clicker as just a noise to get his attention?



I posted the same thing. Didn't see yours. 


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----------



## BePrepared

lalachka said:


> Clickers are used to mark a behavior you like, not to get their attention.
> 
> So I guess you're using it as a long distance attention getter.
> There will come a time when you tone him and he will ignore you. What then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm months away from off-leash training. By then, I will have begun to do stim training, as explained in the video above in the thread. I am not going to be doing that yet, and have decided that aversive stimulus is not really a good way to deal with the cat harassment. Shocking him to make him scared of the cat will make using the stim to teach recall harder from what i'm reading. 

I'm still doing it the old fashioned way, just adding a little tech into the mix. I'm teaching him to come on command, consistently, which will handle the cat problem eventually. I'm just associating the "Come" command with a beep which he'll be able to hear even if he's too far away for my voice to work (like in the other room)


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## lalachka

So what happens when he doesn't come? Recall is usually started on leash for that reason, so that when they don't come you have a way to make them come. 

I'm not trying to down you. Just pointing out some things you might've not thought of. 




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## boomer11

lalachka said:


> So what happens when he doesn't come? Recall is usually started on leash for that reason, so that when they don't come you have a way to make them come.
> 
> I'm not trying to down you. Just pointing out some things you might've not thought of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If your dog loves you he will come


----------



## lalachka

boomer11 said:


> If your dog loves you he will come



Lol. Or are you for real?


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----------



## Deno

Muskeg said:


> It seems to me that overall you have unrealistic expectations of a 10 week old puppy. Also unrealistic expectations, perhaps, for a husky. You want a remote control dog? You might be able to get there, starting now, but I simply don't see it ending well.
> 
> If you are going to e-collar train, please, watch both these videos several times. This trainer combines methods of M. Ellis, Lou Castle and Bart Bellon and describes the best way to start attention/recall training with e-collar, and he also covers aversion training. Remote Collar Conditioning with Pak Masters (part1) - YouTube
> Remote Collar Conditioning with Pak Masters (part 2) - YouTube


 
I only watched the first video, but it sure seems like the long way around the barn to me.

I trained Dex on all the basics by conventional means, then used the collar to refine to near perfection.

It's been my experience that every bad habit can be stopped fast with an e-collar with no ill effects.

I don't understand why he has an e-collar on the dog he is training for aggression if it's never going

to give it a correction, I guess he is just going to guide it away from it ??? 

I can't see ever taking a dog to someone to train, first off it's my dog and there needs to be

a real bond before any training starts IMHO. Who better than me to train my dog, this strengthens

our bond and solidifies me as the "true pack leader". You can get a quailty collar for $79.00


----------



## boomer11

lalachka said:


> Lol. Or are you for real?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I ask my dog nicely and in a loving voice and he recalls in all types of situations. It's about the bond.


----------



## lalachka

boomer11 said:


> I ask my dog nicely and in a loving voice and he recalls in all types of situations. It's about the bond.



It is about the bond but there will always be things out there more interesting than you. 
I can't see the bond outweigh a squirrel or a cat or whatever your dog is into. Through training you can teach it to come to you no matter what but I can't see a dog having bomb proof recall on bond alone. 

You might have a special dog. 

Are you saying you never had to teach your dog recall and it comes to you every time just because he loves you?



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## boomer11

lalachka said:


> It is about the bond but there will always be things out there more interesting than you.
> I can't see the bond outweigh a squirrel or a cat or whatever your dog is into.


Well then I guess your dog loves squirrels more than he loves you! 

I'm more fun than squirrels or cats. 

Of course it's taught. It's a word. All words are taught to mean something to a dog. 

And Ecollar on a 10 week pup? Cmon now. Stop being lazy.


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## lalachka

boomer11 said:


> Well then I guess your dog loves squirrels more than he loves you!
> 
> I'm more fun than squirrels or cats.
> 
> Of course it's taught. It's a word. All words are taught to mean something to a dog.
> 
> And Ecollar on a 10 week pup? Cmon now. Stop being lazy.




He doesn't love the squirrels, it's his prey drive that makes him want to chase them but I'm sure you know that. That behavior (chasing) is so rewarding to dogs that i doubt love for you can outweigh that. 

Anything is possible though, you might have a special dog. 

But I'm not advocating an Ecollar if the last comment is for me. I'm against it for a pup. 



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## BowWowMeow

I see that you've already purchased the e-collar. Perhaps a book on mindfulness might also be helpful? The problem is not what the puppy hasn't learned. The problem is what the OP hasn't learned: patience. That is something that you can learn from your puppy. 


You are looking for a tool that is a quick fix for a potentially big problem. However, the tool you've chosen will probably not work for your puppy. Since you're a psychologist you undoubtedly understand the complexities of brain development. Your puppy has a less than fully developed brain. He needs to understand what is expected of him before a complex training tool is useful or effective. 

I have trained several cat aggressive, full-grown dogs to leave cats alone. 

The first step I took was to use a tool that you already have, as suggested on the first page of this thread: keep your puppy on a leash. 

The second step is to train a non-compatible behavior. That would be something like a sit or a down. The problem with using this method for most 10 week old puppies is that they do not generally have rock solid sits or downs yet. So, given that, you need to return to step #1 (leash) until you have a rock solid sit or down. 

Once your puppy has learned that (proofed with distractions, of course) then you need to ask for that behavior every single time he sees the cat. The leash will prevent him from running after the cat. When he gives you the incompatible behavior you should reward him with something that is more interesting than the cat (like raw meat or cooked chicken). Dogs usually pick this one up pretty quickly and start doing the behavior automatically when they see the cat.


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## lalachka

BowWow, this sounds good. Question. My dog has been doing this for a year and the cat at this point does his part. He will come by the door and antagonize him through the crack under the door. 
I will start spraying water under the crack when he does this but by the time I get up and get there the dog is already riled up. 

Also, when we go out to that room (he's on leash in the house) the cat will sit nearby and hiss. 

My point is that the cat provokes many fights. 
Any ideas? I've been managing all this time, just keeping them separate and dog on leash but i'd like to get this taken care of


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----------



## boomer11

See all you need is love. Lots and lots of love. 

http://youtu.be/Ec-bD8Xt-SE


----------



## Chip18

lalachka said:


> BowWow, this sounds good. Question. My dog has been doing this for a year and the cat at this point does his part. He will come by the door and antagonize him through the crack under the door.
> I will start spraying water under the crack when he does this but by the time I get up and get there the dog is already riled up.
> 
> Also, when we go out to that room (he's on leash in the house) the cat will sit nearby and hiss.
> 
> My point is that the cat provokes many fights.
> Any ideas? I've been managing all this time, just keeping them separate and dog on leash but i'd like to get this taken care of
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well...cats be crazy!:crazy:
Nonetheless the same approach recommend by the majority is still your best option! Cats can tell when a dog is "safe" and when one is not!

The cat that attached/defended the child from the Pitt Bull comes to mind. Cats have been know to go after Rattlesnakes and more than one cat has sent freaking Alligators running!!

This cat sounds like one of them? The cat "knows" your dog has an "attitude" it's your job to show him how you expect him to behave! You change the dogs behavior and most likely the cats behavior will change also!


----------



## lalachka

boomer11 said:


> See all you need is love. Lots and lots of love.
> 
> http://youtu.be/Ec-bD8Xt-SE



I can make yu a bunch of videos like that, we just came from the park and he jetted to me like this 20 times. But first of all, you don't know if I ever used corrections to get him to come every time. And second, I might just tape the times he comes and cut out the times he doesn't. 

But enjoy the thought of love, it is very ego stroking. Most dogs love their owners. I can tell you all about the attachment my dog has to me. Doesn't make me special. They're bred to be this way. Even if you abuse them most times they will cling to you. 





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----------



## lalachka

Chip18 said:


> The cat "knows" your dog has an "attitude" it's your job to show him how you expect him to behave! You change the dogs behavior and most likely the cats behavior will change also!



Actually, now that I think back, it was the cats's fault that the things are the way they are. It was really my fault for not separating them for the first few months but I mean that the cat started with the aggression. He's hiss at him all the time, scratched him a few times. 

I have 2 cats, he's fine with the second one, maybe obsesses over her a little too much but no aggression. 

So I think I have to fix the cat before I fix the dog. Not sure how. 


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----------



## my boy diesel

excellent post bowwowmeow!
the title of this thread should be 
how to wreck a puppy in three months or less
?


----------



## NancyJ

BePrepared, it sounds like you have already made up your mind and want validation. Guess what, you will get it (from a few). You pretty much will regardless of what you want to do. 

I played with an ecollar with a friend on a puppy who was older (6 months) after we removed a live rooster from her mouth (spurs, blood and all).........and high stim.....did not do a thing for this pup. Went to Lou and his very low stim method worked. The cheap little Petsafe collar does not have the capability for that method though........

FWIW that particular dog would scream bloody murder on vibrate mode even though she could "take" a high level of stim when in drive. Go figure. I stand by controlling the pups environment on lead as several have suggested and realizing you have a baby and are walking on ground that very few have experience with (10 weeks old)


----------



## Sunflowers

10 weeks ago, this animal didn't even exist. What do you expect it to know what this point?


----------



## Deno

jocoyn said:


> BePrepared, it sounds like you have already made up your mind and want validation. Guess what, you will get it (from a few). You pretty much will regardless of what you want to do.
> 
> I played with an ecollar with a friend on a puppy who was older (6 months) after we removed a live rooster from her mouth (spurs, blood and all).........and high stim.....did not do a thing for this pup. Went to Lou and his very low stim method worked. The cheap little Petsafe collar does not have the capability for that method though........
> 
> FWIW that particular dog would scream bloody murder on vibrate mode even though she could "take" a high level of stim when in drive. Go figure. I stand by controlling the pups environment on lead as several have suggested and realizing you have a baby and are walking on ground that very few have experience with (10 weeks old)


 
jocoyn, what is the capability the more expensive e-collars have that my $79.00 Pet ed doesn't have?

It has all the bells and whistles, I have found it to be very reliable and if necessary it will stop Dex in his tracks,

and Dex is one Big Bad Alpha Male. 

I just find it hard to believe that a properly fitted, properly working collar could be ignored by any dog.

I know I have read other accounts of this, but I am inclined think for one reason or another the dog is just not getting shocked.

I guess it's possible, but it sure hasn't been my experience.

With my inexpensive e-collar, I have taken Dex to a point where in "The Real World" where I feel he is in the 99 percentile.

I just don't see using the buzz/vibrate mode on a pup as abuse. 

I also defend training & placing the invisible fence collar on Dex & Lexie the day they started to wander away from the house.

Both will chase rabbits and squirrels right up to the line, neither have ever crossed it. They are to a point where they don't

even need the collars. Their safety and solid training are my main concerns, hence my methods.

You and others may not agree with me, but there is no denying our solid results.........


----------



## my boy diesel

if someone is resorting to e collar this early in the game one naturally wonders what they will do when things really get tough!
that's what people are saying
e collars have their place
this aint it


----------



## middleofnowhere

BePrepared said:


> Okay folks, here's the direction I went.
> 
> ....
> 
> My plan is to not use the shock at all until he's at least 4 months old, assuming the behavior toward the cat doesn't become overtly aggressive. We shall see how it turns out. Hopefully the vibrate feature will act as a sufficient interrupt in the event that he needs more than just the tone.


Please give your pup to someone equiped to raise a pup. I think you are too impatient and lazy to have a pup.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Deno said:


> jocoyn, what is the capability the more expensive e-collars have that my $79.00 Pet ed doesn't have?
> 
> It has all the bells and whistles, I have found it to be very reliable and if necessary it will stop Dex in his tracks,


She was referring to using an e-collar using lou castle's training methods. Lou's training methods aren't meant to "stop a dog in it's tracks". 

To very briefly sum them up, you have to find the dog's working level and use that to train the dog. Those cheap petsmart type collars typically only have like 5 or 10 different settings. A quality collar like a dogtra has 127 levels. To find that working level, you're most likely not going to do that with a 5 or 10 level device.

If your goal is to zap into submission, those petsmart collars may be right for that situation. To train a specific way, it might not be the right tool for the job.


----------



## Deno

lalachka said:


> Common sense is not using an Ecollar on a 10 week old
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
lalachka,

let me get this straight, are you are opposed to training and or correcting a 10 week old pup with means other than an e-collar?

Lets establish your base line and then analyze both of our thought processes.


----------



## Saphire

middleofnowhere said:


> Please give your pup to someone equiped to raise a pup. I think you are too impatient and lazy to have a pup.


This!

I believe ecollars do have their place and can be a very effective training tool. In this particular situation it's taking the place of hands on normal puppy training. This is a baby and to use in this manner and for these reasons is unacceptable to me. 

Carmspack Gus


----------



## lalachka

Deno said:


> lalachka,
> 
> let me get this straight, are you are opposed to training and or correcting a 10 week old pup with means other than an e-collar?
> 
> Lets establish your base line and then analyze both of our thought processes.



Yep. Any corrections on a 10 week old are overkill. You got to build a bond with a dog or a pup and teach him what's expected. That takes time even with the adult. With a pup - on top of the bond he's still a baby and can't learn much. Everything should be fun at this point. If he chases the cats then don't give him the opportunity, leash him. 
Manage until you can train. Don't correct. It's not fair to him. 

So no, no corrections on a pup.


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----------



## BowWowMeow

lalachka said:


> BowWow, this sounds good. Question. My dog has been doing this for a year and the cat at this point does his part. He will come by the door and antagonize him through the crack under the door.
> I will start spraying water under the crack when he does this but by the time I get up and get there the dog is already riled up.
> 
> Also, when we go out to that room (he's on leash in the house) the cat will sit nearby and hiss.
> 
> My point is that the cat provokes many fights.
> Any ideas? I've been managing all this time, just keeping them separate and dog on leash but i'd like to get this taken care of
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You need to train the "Leave it" command to both your dog and cat. And yes, my cats are also trained. They don't have my malinois' vocabulary but they know basic commands. It will be easier to teach your dog that the cat is uninteresting or off limits though than to teach the cat to stop antagonizing the dog.  Maybe you could try an e-collar on the cat? ;-)


----------



## lalachka

BowWowMeow said:


> You need to train the "Leave it" command to both your dog and cat. And yes, my cats are also trained. They don't have my malinois' vocabulary but they know basic commands. It will be easier to teach your dog that the cat is uninteresting or off limits though than to teach the cat to stop antagonizing the dog.



Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. I went so wrong when I introduced them, all of this is soo my fault. I wish I knew what I know now. 

I have a good idea about what to do about my dog but not sure about the cat. I thought they're untrainable lol. How did you train them?


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## my boy diesel

*In this particular situation it's taking the place of hands on normal puppy training. This is a baby and to use in this manner and for these reasons is unacceptable to me.*
this exactly
you nailed it

also for something so ridiculously _simple_ to fix by prevention

imo all the op will have at the end of this experiment is a hard dog unresponsive to any type of correction

when all you have is a hammer at your disposal everything is a nail


----------



## Deno

Lucy Dog said:


> She was referring to using an e-collar using lou castle's training methods. Lou's training methods aren't meant to "stop a dog in it's tracks".
> 
> To very briefly sum them up, you have to find the dog's working level and use that to train the dog. Those cheap petsmart type collars typically only have like 5 or 10 different settings. A quality collar like a dogtra has 127 levels. To find that working level, you're most likely not going to do that with a 5 or 10 level device.
> 
> If your goal is to zap into submission, those petsmart collars may be right for that situation. To train a specific way, it might not be the right tool for the job.


That's not exactly what I got out of it. 

Lou's methods are Lou's methods, I have all the respect in the world for people like him and others 

who have worked with many dogs and know what they are talking about. But the fact is my collar

will stop Dex in his tracks, with this fact & common sense I have a near perfect dog in Dex. 

I took it she was implying collars like mine didn't have the same capabilities,

which is flat out not true as far as I know, I have 100 levels of correction, the segmentation is negligible. 

Training first and then tweaking with an e-collar also works well. I have also found I can ZAP any unwanted behavior out of him. 

Granted, I only have experience with Dex as far as the e-collar goes, but I know for a fact that all these absolutes some people

throw around are just not true and I have the dog to prove it.


----------



## Deno

lalachka said:


> Yep. Any corrections on a 10 week old are overkill. You got to build a bond with a dog or a pup and teach him what's expected. That takes time even with the adult. With a pup - on top of the bond he's still a baby and can't learn much. Everything should be fun at this point. If he chases the cats then don't give him the opportunity, leash him.
> Manage until you can train. Don't correct. It's not fair to him.
> 
> So no, no corrections on a pup.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What about house breaking, you wouldn't tell him no and/or correct him if you caught him the act of making a mess?


----------



## Baillif

If people took a moment to really think about it instead of being all emotional about it theyd realize the e collar is better and more humane for use on any dog regardless of age than flat collar corrections or poking or scruffing or whatever else. The research is out there for anyone that cares enough to look. Some of you have this idea its a bigger stick and its not the case. Ignorance around the e collar is extremely pervasive more so than any other tool.

As for those of you who dont correct puppies or young dogs, good luck with that.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Deno said:


> What about house breaking, you wouldn't tell him no and/or correct him if you caught him the act of making a mess?


I wouldn't. If I caught them in the act, I'd make a loud noise to startle which typically stops the stream. Immediately pick the pup up and bring him outside to let him finish. When he finishes outside, praise/treat/click whatever. No correction needed. If the deed has been done, just clean up the mess and try to keep a better eye on him the next time. Again, no correction needed.


----------



## my boy diesel

bailiff that is not the point
the point is you do not slap an e collar on to train a baby puppy
period

training takes time and patience and the op seems to be lacking on both if they cannot train a 10 week old puppy to leave the cat alone

as for litterboxes

all dogs will get in them

you move it and put up a gate 
simple as that

at 10 weeks yes a bond should be being built and an e collar is not gonna do that

with house training it is about training the owner not the puppy
the puppy is gonna go naturally
it is up to the owner to teach it the proper place to go

it occurs to me that people who feel the need to discipline over housetraining issues are ones who believe the dog should just know already to not go potty in the house 
therefore any housetraining errors are the dogs fault

that is not the case
it is always the humans failure to teach the puppy where the correct place is to go so a housetraining failure is failure of the owner
not the puppy


----------



## lalachka

Deno said:


> What about house breaking, you wouldn't tell him no and/or correct him if you caught him the act of making a mess?



Nope. If he made a mess then I didn't take him out enough times. 

ETA I missed the NO part. Yes, i'd say NO but no more than that. 



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## Lucy Dog

Baillif said:


> If people took a moment to really think about it instead of being all emotional about it theyd realize the e collar is better and more humane for use on any dog regardless of age than flat collar corrections or poking or scruffing or whatever else. The research is out there for anyone that cares enough to look. Some of you have this idea its a bigger stick and its not the case. Ignorance around the e collar is extremely pervasive more so than any other tool.
> 
> As for those of you who dont correct puppies or young dogs, good luck with that.


I generally have no issues with e-collars. I use one and have used one for years on one of my adult dogs. It's worked great for her and what I use it for.

With that said, we're talking about a 10 week old puppy here. In this particular case and for what the OP is using it for is just ridiculous.


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## lalachka

It is a bigger stick in the way most people think about it. If they had the skill to use it they wouldn't be posting here asking questions about it. 

I wouldn't argue with ME about it. He has the skill to not mess any dog up and even him, with all his skill, he wouldn't think about doing that. 

In fact, if what he says in his videos is true then he rarely uses it if at all. 


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## Baillif

What Michael does and how he trains is geared toward sport dogs doing stuff like IPO or ring. It isnt pet stuff. There are very specific training methods and usage of tools geared toward that end. It isnt about dogs loose in your house being pets. Lets get that out of the way right now. Those dogs are crated when not training not running loose and free in the living room. Its also very very conservative training and very algorithmic to that end. If you are using it to train a pet and only that youre going to have issues.


----------



## lalachka

If yu say so. I don't know for sure that none of his dogs are in the house so I won't argue. 

But something tells me that if ME with all his knowledge was raising my dog as a pet he wouldn't need the Ecollar. Maybe at the end to proof things. Def not at 10 weeks and not at 6 months. 


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----------



## Sunflowers

Baillif said:


> If people took a moment to really think about it instead of being all emotional about it theyd realize the e collar is better and more humane for use on any dog regardless of age than flat collar corrections or poking or scruffing or whatever else. The research is out there for anyone that cares enough to look. Some of you have this idea its a bigger stick and its not the case. Ignorance around the e collar is extremely pervasive more so than any other tool.
> 
> As for those of you who dont correct puppies or young dogs, good luck with that.


No one said to scruff and poke. 
You tether and leash the baby dog and prevent unwanted behavior. 
You are trying to teach at this stage. There are many ways of correcting. 

E-collars are for older dogs. 

Wish Lou would come on here and tell us if he thinks it's OK to use one on a 10 week old.


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## my boy diesel

i dont think it would matter to the op what he thinks at this point


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## Baillif

I dont need Lous permission to use a tool. 

I also don't need an e collar to train a puppy, but used properly and I'm saying its absolutely possible to do it properly there is nothing to fear. It isn't a magic puppy destroyer.

Any use of aversive done badly or unclearly regardless of the age of a dog is going to yield undesirable results. 

You know what though? If you don't know that and don't know how to be clear then don't go doing it. Don't claim its such a bad thing when you're clueless though.

And lala I'm sitting next to a guy who has taken every class ME offers at his school. We are on the way to the leerburg kennel right at this second. Have you even seen a full ME dvd? His stuff isn't geared toward pets.


----------



## my boy diesel

no you are right
most of us thought about what our puppy was doing and put some thought and effort in how to train it properly and/or prevent issues before they became issues

those who just got a dog to live with them with no intention of truly training it ran to the pet store and bought a shock collar and put it on a baby puppy

i mean seriously 
there has to be more thought put into training than that or in a few months you are gonna be way up a creek with no paddle to get you out


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## lalachka

No way. For real???
I should go and watch to the end then. 

Tell your friend that knows ME so close to ask him what he thinks about ecollars on a 6 month old strictly pet dog. Forget about 10 weeks, ask him about 6 months. 

Post back, I'll be waiting. 


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----------



## lalachka

I also didn't get why you mentioned that your friend took all his classes. Many people did. Did he teach to use ecollars on pups?

Most of his classes are recorded, please post a link and I will take back everything I said. 


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----------



## Baillif

Right

If you want a dog that is a pleasure to live with and you can trust and let live outside of a box or fence or whatever you have to teach right and wrong and its best to start from the beginning rather than wait till they can do real damage to your house. Management is great for when you need a break or cant watch whats going on. It isnt a crutch though, or at least it shouldn't be.

But at some point the dog has to learn through consequence of its actions. You should start the process early. Do you need the tools? No, but they help.


----------



## Baillif

lalachka said:


> I also didn't get why you mentioned that your friend took all his classes. Many people did. Did he teach to use ecollars on pups?
> 
> Most of his classes are recorded, please post a link and I will take back everything I said.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are not getting it. The classes aren't geared to pet stuff. The problems the op has aren't sport problems. There are no ME classes on critterińg


----------



## lalachka

You mentioned leerburg. I'm assuming that means you agree with what they teach, right? His stuff is def for pet dogs. 

Do you?


Anyway, I'm sure there's someone somewhere who can use an Ecollar on a pup and not mess him up. Most people can't. If they come to you to board and train their dogs or learn to train their dogs then that means they don't have the skill. And you can't teach them that skill in a few lessons. 

So that almost guarantees that it will be used in the wrong way. I see how average people use ecollars. Poor dogs. 
I can't even imagine what would happen if this was done to a 10 week old. 



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----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> You are not getting it. The classes aren't geared to pet stuff. The problems the op has aren't sport problems. There are no ME classes on critterińg



I'm getting it. I realized before I even bought the first video that this is not pet training. 

So you're saying that ME can teach his dogs to do things no pet dog can do but his methods are not strong enough to be used on pet dogs. Right?

He lived with dogs (from his stories, maybe still does now). Are you saying he uses different methods for his pet dogs? 


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----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> I'm getting it. I realized before I even bought the first video that this is not pet training.
> 
> *So you're saying that ME can teach his dogs to do things no pet dog can do but his methods are not strong enough to be used on pet dogs. Right?*
> 
> He lived with dogs (from his stories, maybe still does now). Are you saying he uses different methods for his pet dogs?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Huh? How did you get that out of what he's saying?


----------



## jafo220

martemchik said:


> Thanks for the explanation...now go back and figure out what I meant.
> 
> My point was, people think they work the same way. You don't have to tell me they're not the same. I've done my research. But the majority of people think they work the same way. Electric fence...I don't want my dog to cross this line, when he does, he gets shocked. After 3 times, he learns not to cross this line. Ecollar...I don't want my dog to eat cat poop. Everytime he sticks his face in the litter box, he gets shocked. After 3 times, he learns not to stick his face in the litter box.


I think your sarcastic remark is a little uncalled for. Sorry if I misunderstood you comment. No disrespect intended. Matter of fact I've agreed with other posts of yours. I don't know where the hostility is coming from. These topics seem to get your undies in a bunch. Or am I reading you wrong again?


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----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Huh? How did you get that out of what he's saying?



He's saying that I can't go by ME's videos because they're for sport dogs and that they're not in his livingroom, they're crated when not trained. So they're trained with diff methods and training pets is totally different because you need to let them loose and be able to trust them. So that implies it calls for harsher methods


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----------



## Chip18

lalachka said:


> My point is that the cat provokes many fights.
> Any ideas? I've been managing all this time, just keeping them separate and dog on leash but i'd like to get this taken care of
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh well crazy still seems to raise supreme! :crazy:

One needs to use the appropriate tool for the situation at hand! I used the info on the Leerburgh site to fix my guys "people issues" that... was a real issue!

I did it with "leadership" Who pets my Puppy or Dog." Did not need a prong did not need a E collar, regular collar and leash and no harsh corrections. Never gave him the chance to get over threshold! I'm sure a E collar could (properly used) could have gotten quicker results!

But I wasn't in a hurry! I prefer to take the "what am I doing wrong approach, rather that the what's wrong with this stupid dog approach. But to each his own. 

Moving on:

lalachka...this is the cat guy:
Introductions | Jackson Galaxy

I still think the problem lies with the dogs demeanor! Change the dog and you will change the cat!


----------



## my boy diesel

lala you really need to start your own thread about your dog and your cat 
this thread is about a shock collar on a puppy


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> lala you really need to start your own thread about your dog and your cat
> this thread is about a shock collar on a puppy



I'm OK already. Someone saw my posts and replied and I know what to do. 


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----------



## Steve Strom

Deno said:


> That's not exactly what I got out of it.
> 
> Lou's methods are Lou's methods, I have all the respect in the world for people like him and others
> 
> who have worked with many dogs and know what they are talking about. But the fact is my collar
> 
> will stop Dex in his tracks, with this fact & common sense I have a near perfect dog in Dex.
> 
> I took it she was implying collars like mine didn't have the same capabilities,
> 
> which is flat out not true as far as I know, I have 100 levels of correction, the segmentation is negligible.
> 
> Training first and then tweaking with an e-collar also works well. I have also found I can ZAP any unwanted behavior out of him.
> 
> Granted, I only have experience with Dex as far as the e-collar goes, but I know for a fact that all these absolutes some people
> 
> throw around are just not true and I have the dog to prove it.


Hey Deno, and to the op also. The problem with the cheaper collars is consistency. When you use the better quality collars, a 10 is a 10 is a 10. The lower quality ones, a 10 could be 3 this time or a 20 next time. I was told that when I first bought a Tri-tronics a little over 10 years ago, and I would bet its still true. I can't find a product test I saw online at some point that said the same thing, if I do I'll link it.

As far as absolutes, I could say the exact same thing to you. They arent machines Deno.


----------



## selzer

I agree with middleofnowhere. 

This puppy isn't exhibiting aggression, he is exhibiting play. It isn't prey drive. it isn't dogs hate cats. If you leave it alone, the cat is big enough, they will figure out a truce that both will be able to live with. 

Just don't let the cat KILL the puppy. 

What adding sims into this is going to do is likely to make the dog AFRAID of the cat. Do you not know that most dog bites are based in fear? Oh it can learn to leave the cat be. Or it can learn that when it sees the cat bad things happen. 

You don't have a problem right now. You have a puppy, and as your cat has not seriously injured your puppy, she is probably treating him like a new family member that is very young. She will shape his behavior. She will be tolerant of his exhuberance. 

If the cat was in danger, I would worry about it. It doesn't sound like that is the case here. But you can change that puppy-cat relationship into a dog that hates cats by the type of interference. 

I would consider the cat as an older dog. If you bring in a puppy with an older dog and it is pestering the older dog to try and get it too play, it can annoy them to the point where they may snarl or otherwise correct the puppy. Before it gets to this point, you remove the puppy and do something else with it, or give it a time out in its safe area, so that the older family member has some relief.

You do not need to do ineffective tugs on the collar -- you are increasing the pups desire to do what he is doing. Pick the pup up and remove it from the situation for a spell. 

You certainly do not need an e-collar for what is normal puppy behavior. And yes, you can cause yourself some real problems down the road by how you are treating this puppy. 

For anyone who has aspirations of breeding their dogs, please pay close attention to the puppy threads, it will show you how important it is when placing your puppies.


----------



## NancyJ

Deno said:


> jocoyn, what is the capability the more expensive e-collars have that my $79.00 Pet ed doesn't have?
> 
> It has all the bells and whistles, I have found it to be very reliable and if necessary it will stop Dex in his tracks,
> 
> and Dex is one Big Bad Alpha Male.
> 
> I just find it hard to believe that a properly fitted, properly working collar could be ignored by any dog.
> 
> I know I have read other accounts of this, but I am inclined think for one reason or another the dog is just not getting shocked.
> 
> I guess it's possible, but it sure hasn't been my experience.
> 
> With my inexpensive e-collar, I have taken Dex to a point where in "The Real World" where I feel he is in the 99 percentile.
> 
> I just don't see using the buzz/vibrate mode on a pup as abuse.
> 
> I also defend training & placing the invisible fence collar on Dex & Lexie the day they started to wander away from the house.
> 
> Both will chase rabbits and squirrels right up to the line, neither have ever crossed it. They are to a point where they don't
> 
> even need the collars. Their safety and solid training are my main concerns, hence my methods.
> 
> You and others may not agree with me, but there is no denying our solid results.........


Deno, (and I am not sure why you think your text needs to be so large)..I went on the Petsafe site and looked at collars with vibrate feature as the OP indicated. 15 levels of stim is what THOSE collars have. So the comment about Lou's method vs the petsafe collar stands. And that is outside of the debate of suitability of the cheapy collar and outside of the argument about using this on a 10 week old pup.

Of all the folks supporting the OP in this endeavor have you actually USED an ecollar on a 10 week old puppy? I don't have an issue with using an ecollar for training....just worry about possible issues with one so young.


----------



## Steve Strom

Courses | The Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers

Courses
Click the courses below to view descriptions, videos, view course offering dates and to register.

PUPPY DEVELOPMENT
Techniques For Making The Most Of Your Puppy For Work Or Pet

I bet over the years Michael Ellis has trained more plain old pets then "Working Dogs".


----------



## Steve Strom

> MANAGEMENTCollapse
> This week long course covers all the basics of how we live with our dogs during the training process, with an emphasis on creating manners, and avoiding long term behavior problems, without damaging your dog’s motivation or enthusiasm for work or training.
> 
> Some of the topics covered include: crate games, housebreaking, chewing and redirection, controlling biting/mouthing, use of “x-pens,” place work, leash walking for puppies, exercise regimes, environmental enrichment, crate barking, house and yard preparation, early play habits, frequency and duration of formal training sessions, feeding, socialization, equipment, etc.
> 
> This course was created to answer the questions most frequently asked by our students. This class is a must for any trainer (sport or pet dog) or serious hobbyist


Boy, that pet word keeps popping up in his course descriptions. House and yard preparation? For a sport dog thats always crated ?


----------



## Deno

Lucy Dog said:


> I wouldn't. If I caught them in the act, I'd make a loud noise to startle which typically stops the stream. Immediately pick the pup up and bring him outside to let him finish. When he finishes outside, praise/treat/click whatever. No correction needed. If the deed has been done, just clean up the mess and try to keep a better eye on him the next time. Again, no correction needed.


Ok, so we have established you wouldn't correct him but you would make a loud noise to startle him.

My question is how and why the Buzz/vibrate feature is so bad as compared to you startling him?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

well here's my opinion, and no offense to anyone, nor a need to get their panties in a bunch.

I have a 12 week old puppy, and yep she just loves chasing my cats, (indoor cats), they take only so much and let her have it, she backs off. This puppy has more prey drive than my german shepherds, she's "getting' that chasing the cats is not as rewarding as me yelling "COME" and throwing food or a toy her way. She would just LOVE to get into their litter box, but the litter box is in a room with a baby gate across it, so that isn't happening..

While I have no issue with using an ecollar, I wouldn't put it on a 10 wk old puppy. My feeling is, using an ecollar on a puppy this young is being impatient, wanting right now results, and just plain lazy, I guess it's one of those 'train don't complain' things.

Again, not directed at anyone or even the OP. Just my general opinion on ecollars with puppies this young


----------



## Deno

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Deno, and to the op also. The problem with the cheaper collars is consistency. When you use the better quality collars, a 10 is a 10 is a 10. The lower quality ones, a 10 could be 3 this time or a 20 next time. I was told that when I first bought a Tri-tronics a little over 10 years ago, and I would bet its still true. I can't find a product test I saw online at some point that said the same thing, if I do I'll link it.
> 
> As far as absolutes, I could say the exact same thing to you. They arent machines Deno.



Steve, your last paragraph doesn' make any sense, please explain with an example. I know they are not machines.

Your explantion seems to make sense at first glance, but after reading the below I am curious how true this really is. 


No regulations exist specifying the performance characteristics or reliability of these devices, so there is considerable variation in shock level and waveform characteristics between manufacturers, and perhaps even between batches of collars from a single manufacturer. The lack of regulation or standards, and the fact that some of the safety features of shock collars are patented by specific manufacturers,[6] means that the safety and operational characteristics of individual products cannot be verified.


----------



## my boy diesel

*just plain lazy,*
this
1000 x this


----------



## my boy diesel

*I bet over the years Michael Ellis has trained more plain old pets then "Working Dogs".*
i bet you are right


----------



## Chip18

my boy diesel said:


> *I bet over the years Michael Ellis has trained more plain old pets then "Working Dogs".*
> i bet you are right


And some "plain old pets" will jack you up!


----------



## BePrepared

jocoyn said:


> Deno, (and I am not sure why you think your text needs to be so large)..I went on the Petsafe site and looked at collars with vibrate feature as the OP indicated. 15 levels of stim is what THOSE collars have. So the comment about Lou's method vs the petsafe collar stands. And that is outside of the debate of suitability of the cheapy collar and outside of the argument about using this on a 10 week old pup.
> 
> Of all the folks supporting the OP in this endeavor have you actually USED an ecollar on a 10 week old puppy? I don't have an issue with using an ecollar for training....just worry about possible issues with one so young.



And i totally agree with you. That's why i'm not giving him the Zotz... i'm using the vibrate and tone feature to improve recall, and it's the most effective thing I've ever seen. The tone brings him in instantly with no hesitation. 

I might change that up at some point, but i'm not looking to turn my dog into an emotional basket case, so i'm not doing it until he's older

I've actually removed the contacts for the shock for the moment, so i don't accidentally give him a zap while working on the tone and vibrate training. 

The vibrate stops him DEAD in his tracks instantly, although getting any kind of recall reaction from that seems to be challenging, but the tone brings him running to me... the combination seems effective, and the cat is finally getting a little peace


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Dang. Where's the envy smiley?



Baillif said:


> I dont need Lous permission to use a tool.
> 
> I also don't need an e collar to train a puppy, but used properly and I'm saying its absolutely possible to do it properly there is nothing to fear. It isn't a magic puppy destroyer.
> 
> Any use of aversive done badly or unclearly regardless of the age of a dog is going to yield undesirable results.
> 
> You know what though? If you don't know that and don't know how to be clear then don't go doing it. Don't claim its such a bad thing when you're clueless though.
> 
> And lala I'm sitting next to a guy who has taken every class ME offers at his school. We are on the way to the leerburg kennel right at this second. Have you even seen a full ME dvd? His stuff isn't geared toward pets.


----------



## lalachka

Lol so Baillif. How's Mia Skogster's seminar? I'm sure she spoke extensively on zapping pups. 

Anyhow, I finally finished watching the first Ecollar DVD. Few loose quotes from Michael. 
'In the second DVD we will teach you how to apply the Ecollar to different behavior for sport dogs and also for pet dogs such as manners, etc'. 

Also, i'd say that his food DVD def and most of the tug DVD can be and should be used for pets. 

And one more quote

'There are trainers out there that use the Ecollar for everything. That doesn't go with our philosophy. If we feel there are different ways to accomplish what we are after then we generally try those first'. 

Watching the second one. Will post back. 


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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> I dont need Lous permission to use a tool.
> 
> I also don't need an e collar to train a puppy, but used properly and I'm saying its absolutely possible to do it properly there is nothing to fear. It isn't a magic puppy destroyer.
> 
> Any use of aversive done badly or unclearly regardless of the age of a dog is going to yield undesirable results.
> 
> You know what though? If you don't know that and don't know how to be clear then don't go doing it. Don't claim its such a bad thing when you're clueless though.
> 
> And lala I'm sitting next to a guy who has taken every class ME offers at his school. We are on the way to the leerburg kennel right at this second. Have you even seen a full ME dvd? His stuff isn't geared toward pets.


Agreed the pup just needs to be managed. 
That being said you can use an E Collar on a pup without breaking it..if you know what your doing which many people on this thread clearly dont...
If the vibrate/tone is enough to get the pup off the cat there is no difference between that and stim sufficient to achieve the same result.
I would say the difference is in your perception of what you are doing not what the dog is infact experiencing.

ME's E Collar vids are good for beginners but not really oriented to advanced training. I need a Bart Bellon vid.


----------



## lalachka

This thread was obviously started by a beginner. Also, I like ME's approach. Do extensive training first, try other ways and then do the Ecollar. 

Yu gotta be really good not to mess a dog up. Most people (including me) are not 


The reason Baillif is arguing is not because he thinks the op should use the Ecollar, that was his way to up himself a bit, just to mention that most people here don't know what they're talking about but he does. 

I'm just having fun. I don't care what anyone does, I'm worrying about me and my dog only. 


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----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That being said you can use an E Collar on a pup without breaking it.



I'm sure some people can. Why though? Why not leave yourself with some options should you come into some problems later on. 

Slap a prong, slap an Ecollar, desensitize the dog to everything early on for dumb stuff and be left with no options than to zap on 100 when you really need it. 

I'm not a pro, just a pet owner. That's an insult around here. So maybe I'm not qualified to babble on a forum. 




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----------



## lalachka

What I mean is, Ecollar, prong, they're aversives. Why use them on pups period? Why not use motivation to get them to do things? Why not redirect when they misbehave? Why go to punishment right away?

Because it's much harder that way, that's why. It looks all easy but it's not. Much easier to pop and press buttons. 


ETA I use both because I didn't raise my pup right. And he's desensitized to the prong already. Would've been soo much easier to just raise him right than to deal with the many issues I created by listening to idiots. 

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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I said the pup needs to be managed. I would just crate and supervise at the current age. My comment was that you can use one. Its not this big horrible thing that many make it out to be.
Unfortunately putting a prong and e collar on a pup does not desensitize the dog and leave you with no options down the road if used properly. That is a myth.

Nor is an E collar the easy way to train. That is another myth often perpetuated by those who again DONT know what they are doing. That being said its a tool that CAN make training a lot faster and clearer for someone that KNOWS what they are doing. 

Anyone who believes the above: Go ahead buy an E Collar slap it on and start pushing buttons..see how easy it is..lol.


----------



## gsdsar

But the OP is not using the "shock" just the tone. Why is this a problem for people. It's the same as saying "no". Or did I miss a post somewhere? Is he shocking the puppy? 


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----------



## lalachka

gsdsar said:


> But the OP is not using the "shock" just the tone. Why is this a problem for people. It's the same as saying "no". Or did I miss a post somewhere? Is he shocking the puppy?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Not yet. Very soon the pup will ignore the tone. It's new now, he's startled. Soon he will ignore it just as he ignores the voice. 


But I don't have any problems at all. I wouldn't do it but it's a free country 


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----------



## Steve Strom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I said the pup needs to be managed. I would just crate and supervise at the current age. My comment was that you can use one. Its not this big horrible thing that many make it out to be.
> Unfortunately putting a prong and e collar on a pup does not desensitize the dog and leave you with no options down the road if used properly. That is a myth.
> 
> Nor is an E collar the easy way to train. That is another myth often perpetuated by those who again DONT know what they are doing. That being said its a tool that CAN make training a lot faster and clearer for someone that KNOWS what they are doing.
> 
> Anyone who believes the above: Go ahead buy an E Collar slap it on and start pushing buttons..see how easy it is..lol.


 Hey, here's another myth Blitzkreig. That it's the best tool for everything.


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I said the pup needs to be managed. I would just crate and supervise at the current age. My comment was that you can use one. Its not this big horrible thing that many make it out to be.


It's not. I don't think anyone saying it is. It's a way to punish. If they started a thread about using a prong on a pup they'd get the same replies. Pups shouldn't be punished. They need to be taught boundaries and rules first. It's not the Ecollar that people are bugging about. 





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Unfortunately putting a prong and e collar on a pup does not desensitize the dog and leave you with no options down the road if used properly. That is a myth..


If this is not true and dogs don't get desensitized then it's not unfortunately, it's fortunately. But I doubt you're right. I only have one dog so my experience doesn't count for much. But ME warns against it, leerburg does too. It can happen and it does happen if you use it wrong.
People use it wrong all the time






Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Nor is an E collar the easy way to train. That is another myth often perpetuated by those who again DONT know what they are doing. That being said its a tool that CAN make training a lot faster and clearer for someone that KNOWS what they are doing. .


It's not if you're doing it the right way. Put a ton of work into the dog first and use to to fix a few things. 
People that post asking about ecollars are not looking to do that. They want a quick fix and in their mind an Ecollar is just that, a way to remotely punish a dog for EVERYTHING. 





Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Anyone who believes the above: Go ahead buy an E Collar slap it on and start pushing buttons..see how easy it is..lol.


They do just that. Then come on and brag about how perfect their dog is and how easy it is to get them to be that way. 



But enough of the abstracts, be specific lol. You use ecollars? How? From what age? To accomplish what? Is the dog trained beforehand? What's the youngest dog you've ever used it on. 






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----------



## lalachka

Steve Strom said:


> Hey, here's another myth Blitzkreig. That it's the best tool for everything.



Lol)))))


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----------



## Deno

gsdsar said:


> But the OP is not using the "shock" just the tone. Why is this a problem for people. It's the same as saying "no". Or did I miss a post somewhere? Is he shocking the puppy?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Your reading comprehension is on the mark.......


----------



## BePrepared

actually, i'm using the tone for recall, and the vibrate as an interrupt, or at least i was... he hasn't touched the cat all day today, even though the cat is antagonizing him... little feline ******* isn't really the victim in this it seems. 

I absolutely LOVE the tone. It allows me to recall him from any distance that the remote will reach and he responds to it as well as you could expect a puppy to. I took him out to the dog run at my apt complex today. It's a 100 foot long, 12 foot wide, fully enclosed pen. Even at the far end of the pen, he'd come running when i hit the tone. It's far more efficient than a "come" command, although i AM pairing the two whenever he's close enough to hear me clearly.


----------



## my boy diesel

so curious how you plan to up the ante when he starts ignoring the tone and vibrate?


----------



## BePrepared

my boy diesel said:


> so curious how you plan to up the ante when he starts ignoring the tone and vibrate?


I don't... i've managed to get what needed to be done, done. Conditioning is not complex, i simply needed a way to combine a reinforcer with a behavior modifier. Once you can do that, you can condition out the behavior without significant aversion


----------



## Twyla

It will be interesting to follow this pup when he reaches the bratty teen period.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Steve Strom said:


> Hey, here's another myth Blitzkreig. That it's the best tool for everything.


I will agree with you here.


----------



## lalachka

Twyla said:


> It will be interesting to follow this pup when he reaches the bratty teen period.



Yep)))) probably won't get to though 


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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> It's not. I don't think anyone saying it is. It's a way to punish. If they started a thread about using a prong on a pup they'd get the same replies. Pups shouldn't be punished. They need to be taught boundaries and rules first. It's not the Ecollar that people are bugging about.
> 
> Puppies do require some punishment in the learning process. Some more then others the degree is what we can quibble about all day long.
> 
> If this is not true and dogs don't get desensitized then it's not unfortunately, it's fortunately. But I doubt you're right. I only have one dog so my experience doesn't count for much. But ME warns against it, leerburg does too. It can happen and it does happen if you use it wrong.
> People use it wrong all the time
> 
> *ME is a good resource but he is not god. He is trying to make his system idiot proof. I can take a prong hard dog switch some things up and make him prong sensitive. Same with E Collars. True beasts are rare indeed.
> I used unfortunately because while you are repeating everything you read or watched on Leerburg your actual experience on the topic is coming through in your posts.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not if you're doing it the right way. Put a ton of work into the dog first and use to to fix a few things.
> People that post asking about ecollars are not looking to do that. They want a quick fix and in their mind an Ecollar is just that, a way to remotely punish a dog for EVERYTHING.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They do just that. Then come on and brag about how perfect their dog is and how easy it is to get them to be that way.
> 
> *When your dog has never recalled and you push a button and he comes you may be misled to believe that is training. When you get further along and your dog is tested under various stressors and distractors it all tends to fall apart. When the dog becomes collarwise or is cowering against you thats when the "oh crap" light comes on and you realize..maybe it wasnt so easy after all. We have not even gotten into precision work yet.*
> 
> But enough of the abstracts, be specific lol. You use ecollars? How? From what age? To accomplish what? Is the dog trained beforehand? What's the youngest dog you've ever used it on.
> 
> 
> I *have used the collar on numerous dogs from 6 months plus. Mostly to re enforce foundation training to create reliability and precision.
> I have also used it to teach obedience ( escape style or nepopo )
> I have used it to break dogs of bad habits like Cat chasing.
> 
> All the dogs were collar condioned before training commenced.
> Specific enough for ya.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Use the collar on more then one dog and you will see the nuances.


----------



## martemchik

I like how these threads turn into a debate that doesn’t really even involve the OP anymore…lol.

Anyways, I remember that my dog had a very good recall at 10 weeks old. Since I was the only thing he’d known since he was taken from his family, he would come running to me whenever I called him. If he wasn’t following me around anyways. So I’m quite interested to see how the OP will work through the next stage where the dog will grow up a little and stop listening to the tone. Even with a tone, this seems to be “aversion” training at a certain level. The dog wants the tone to stop, it has realized that to get the tone to stop, it goes to its owner.

The fact remains, a recall is all about the relationship with the owner. And sorry…I can overcome my dog’s prey drive (which he has plenty of) and still recall him when there might be a small animal around. He actually doesn’t chase squirrels as I believe he’s realized he’ll never catch one since there are trees everywhere. I actually use his prey drive to get a solid recall…because I have always had the “prey” reward instead of a small animal which he is unlikely to catch. So for people that believe it’s not possible to overcome a dog’s natural instinct to chase small animals to get a recall…its false. You can use that instinct by providing a tug toy for the dog to have that release and have that reward of “killing.” And I’m not posting this as an argument against ecollar “crittering” I’m just saying its possible. I also believe that the ecollar way, would’ve worked much faster than what I did…but time/speed isn’t of the essence for me and I believe everyone will agree that as a novice dog trainer, my method is much less likely to “mess up” my dog for the future.

I guess that’s the only issue I can find here with a 10 week old puppy. The future. You don’t really know what this dog’s natural fears are, you haven’t really seen some of the genetic faults come out, and it’s very possible that using these methods can increase those faults and issues. But so can using a prong, or any other aversive method on a puppy that age.

I believe this came up in our last ecollar debate thread…at the end of the day, people don’t get qualified trainers to help them use this tool. They watch some videos, read some posts, figure they can make it happen. But even if you think of clicker training, the biggest thing about training is timing of the reward or the punishment, and we all know that “novices” have very bad timing which can lead to confusion and therefore issues in the relationship between handler and dog and when training more advanced exercises. But…many people don’t ever get to advanced exercises, recall is the most advanced thing they need out of their dog, and no one is going to be judging them on “how happy” the dog looks to be recalling.


----------



## Steve Strom

Hey Blitzkrieg, can you give a little detail on the precision work? For his future reference, that seems like something the op would be interested in. And I'm curious too, how did it hold up when you trialed? No collar, no ball. Did it all go? I'm just asking because I could see myself struggling if I had used the collar for so much detail.


----------



## davejk

"I can take a prong hard dog switch some things up and make him prong sensitive. Same with E Collars." - that's an interesting statement, Blitzkrieg1. Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly "switching things up" means? Knowing what's involved most folks would prefer to avoid allowing this problem to develop.

" True beasts are rare indeed." - same could be said about true "prong hard" dogs. People that cannot stop their pets pulling on leash or cannot get them to heel on the field usually blame their "prong hard" dogs when better handling usually fixes the problem.

I am actually more interested in "Same with E collars" part of your statement. Getting the dog to respond to e collar after he gets used to blowing through highest level is one **** of a job. Definitely not something the OP can or should attempt judging by his obedience video.


----------



## lalachka

---------
Puppies do require some punishment in the learning process. Some more then others the degree is what we can quibble about all day long.
----------

With the prong? Or the Ecollar? How much do you think is justified at 10 weeks. How much do you usually do at 10 weeks. 




---------
ME is a good resource but he is not god. He is trying to make his system idiot proof. I can take a prong hard dog switch some things up and make him prong sensitive. Same with E Collars. True beasts are rare indeed. 

I used unfortunately because while you are repeating everything you read or watched on Leerburg your actual experience on the topic is coming through in your posts.
--------

lol don't act like you're all insightful about where my info is coming from. I repeat in every post that I have no experience and quote ME and leerburg. 

ME is not god, did I say he was? I like his style and his videos are def idiot proof. They can't be any other way if you want to teach from the bottom up. Anyone at any level can take his video and learn a bunch. 

I read that a dog can be sensitized to the prong once he was desensitized. I don't know how to do it though. Can you explain it?

Anyway, I just don't understand the need to do all this. I'd much rather have done it right the first time around than having to fix all the issues I created. 
I think using prong and Ecollar on pups IN MOST PEOPLE'S HANDS creates issues. 
What are you arguing about? I'm sure there are people who can do it. But why? To prove a point? What are the benefits of using these tools on pups? 

I like the philosophy of 'less is more'. 
Maybe that's why we don't agree. 


---------
When your dog has never recalled and you push a button and he comes you may be misled to believe that is training. When you get further along and your dog is tested under various stressors and distractors it all tends to fall apart. When the dog becomes collarwise or is cowering against you thats when the "oh crap" light comes on and you realize..maybe it wasnt so easy after all. We have not even gotten into precision work yet.
--------
Yep, at some point most people will realize it. But the damage has been done in most cases and now lots of work and skill is needed to undo it. 

There's the perception out there that the Ecollar is a magic tool that can be used for anything. Most people that come asking questions about it are working off that perception. 

I know how much knowledge goes into using it. I'm extremely careful about using it and have been putting it off for a while. I still haven't used it much. I realize how much damage I can do. 

Most people don't realize it. There's a potential to do more damage with the Ecollar than with any other tool. Do you not agree?



----
I have used the collar on numerous dogs from 6 months plus. Mostly to re enforce foundation training to create reliability and precision. 

I have also used it to teach obedience ( escape style or nepopo )

I have used it to break dogs of bad habits like Cat chasing. 

All the dogs were collar condioned before training commenced. 

Specific enough for ya.
-------
Good enough. So you did the work before using it. That's the way I like. 

I wouldn't use it that much. I'd use it for a few things, recall and bad habits. Then again I'm not competing and never will so my dog only needs a few behaviors. 



But I get it. You guys are pros and you know what you're doing. This was just a way to give you a reason to mention it a few times)))))) no problem. Enjoy)))))

I think everyone still agrees that most people (who are not pros) shouldn't use the Ecollar unless they're willing to do lots of work first which defeats their purpose. 





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----------



## lalachka

davejk said:


> "I can take a prong hard dog switch some things up and make him prong sensitive. Same with E Collars." - that's an interesting statement, Blitzkrieg1. Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly "switching things up" means? Knowing what's involved most folks would prefer to avoid allowing this problem to develop.



Exactly!!!! Why get to that point? It's soo much easier to just do things right and not overkill with tools than fix countless issues that can develop. 

Not only that, going by what I read, most people don't do that. They mess a dog up and dump it in the shelter and then knowledgeable people rehab it. They go get another dog having not learned anything. 



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----------



## Chip18

Well I taught my Boxer to chase rabbits to the North (the mountains) and not the South (the highway) with my voice. So you don't always needs a tool if you have a solid relationship with your dog!

Certainly "I" would not advocate putting an E collar on a puppy! Nevertheless, the OP 'appears" to have solved this problem?

Credit where credit is do so congratulations to the OP sounds like it worked for you!

OK all carry on!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

davejk said:


> "I can take a prong hard dog switch some things up and make him prong sensitive. Same with E Collars." - that's an interesting statement, Blitzkrieg1. Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly "switching things up" means? Knowing what's involved most folks would prefer to avoid allowing this problem to develop.
> 
> " True beasts are rare indeed." - same could be said about true "prong hard" dogs. People that cannot stop their pets pulling on leash or cannot get them to heel on the field usually blame their "prong hard" dogs when better handling usually fixes the problem.
> 
> I am actually more interested in "Same with E collars" part of your statement. Getting the dog to respond to e collar after he gets used to blowing through highest level is one **** of a job. Definitely not something the OP can or should attempt judging by his obedience video.


In summary:
Most of the people using prongs on their dogs are using ill fitting larger guage prongs. Their use of the prong has also taught the dog to self reward by pulling and not giving to the pressure. 
Adjust fit and equipment if necessary and add some leash pressure foundation training for both the dog and handler. 

Same with E Collar. Using cheap unreliable product, not on properly, have not taught the dog to turn off the pressure. Have not shown the dog how to achieve success not just avoid pain. 
Most people use this tool as a Baseball bat when it should really be used more like a willow switch. (I am guilty of this too and the result in the training spoke for itself)
For those who have actually stimmed themselves at 120 on a dogtra or Einstien you understand that 99% of dogs are not blowing through that level.
Pair the collar with other aversives that the dog is more sensitive too, same with reward.
Hence my "true beasts are rare" comment. There are some dogs that can but they dont tend to be in pet owners hands.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> ---------
> Puppies do require some punishment in the learning process. Some more then others the degree is what we can quibble about all day long.
> ----------
> 
> With the prong? Or the Ecollar? How much do you think is justified at 10 weeks. How much do you usually do at 10 weeks.
> 
> *Niether, punishment can be effectively delivered in other ways at that age. *
> *I have heard of some pups in which those tools where used when other options where exhausted. (No I will not get into what, who and why) I have not yet had the pleasure of encountering such a monster.*
> 
> 
> ---------
> ME is a good resource but he is not god. He is trying to make his system idiot proof. I can take a prong hard dog switch some things up and make him prong sensitive. Same with E Collars. True beasts are rare indeed.
> 
> I used unfortunately because while you are repeating everything you read or watched on Leerburg your actual experience on the topic is coming through in your posts.
> --------
> 
> lol don't act like you're all insightful about where my info is coming from. I repeat in every post that I have no experience and quote ME and leerburg.
> 
> ME is not god, did I say he was? I like his style and his videos are def idiot proof. They can't be any other way if you want to teach from the bottom up. Anyone at any level can take his video and learn a bunch.
> 
> I read that a dog can be sensitized to the prong once he was desensitized. I don't know how to do it though. Can you explain it?
> 
> Anyway, I just don't understand the need to do all this. I'd much rather have done it right the first time around than having to fix all the issues I created.
> *Sometimes you get dogs that have not had a proper foundation in any sense of the word.*
> *All Pups are different. You get angels and you get super monsters and all shades of inbetween.*
> 
> I think using prong and Ecollar on pups IN MOST PEOPLE'S HANDS creates issues.
> What are you arguing about? I'm sure there are people who can do it. But why? To prove a point? What are the benefits of using these tools on pups?
> 
> I like the philosophy of 'less is more'.
> Maybe that's why we don't agree.
> 
> *I initially stated that I wouldnt use the collar on what sounds like a normal puppy. I was just saying, you could. WHy shouldnt I say that? It happens to be true. *
> 
> *I have never liked the way many talk about E Collars like they are weapons of mass destruction. *
> *Unless you are working with very poor genetic material or have an evil need to consistently hurt your dog (In which case you will likely get the same issues using another technique or tool) most mistakes are easily fixable. ( I have made them. Will likely make more)*
> 
> *I have seen so many people teach their dogs to ignore them through incorrect use of +R. Some of these dogs require more aversives down the road then they would have otherwise required to be safe in their obedience. Does this make +R dangerous?*
> ---------
> When your dog has never recalled and you push a button and he comes you may be misled to believe that is training. When you get further along and your dog is tested under various stressors and distractors it all tends to fall apart. When the dog becomes collarwise or is cowering against you thats when the "oh crap" light comes on and you realize..maybe it wasnt so easy after all. We have not even gotten into precision work yet.
> --------
> Yep, at some point most people will realize it. But the damage has been done in most cases and now lots of work and skill is needed to undo it.
> 
> There's the perception out there that the Ecollar is a magic tool that can be used for anything. Most people that come asking questions about it are working off that perception.
> 
> I know how much knowledge goes into using it. I'm extremely careful about using it and have been putting it off for a while. I still haven't used it much. I realize how much damage I can do.
> 
> Most people don't realize it. There's a potential to do more damage with the Ecollar than with any other tool. Do you not agree?
> 
> *Depends on the dog. In some cases yes in others no.* *Its not the nuclear weapon that many imagine it to be. Most people arent zapping the dog on the top level every day EVEN if they dont know what they are doing*
> *So I guess I dont agree with you.*
> 
> ----
> I have used the collar on numerous dogs from 6 months plus. Mostly to re enforce foundation training to create reliability and precision.
> 
> I have also used it to teach obedience ( escape style or nepopo )
> 
> I have used it to break dogs of bad habits like Cat chasing.
> 
> All the dogs were collar condioned before training commenced.
> 
> Specific enough for ya.
> -------
> Good enough. So you did the work before using it. That's the way I like.
> 
> *In some cases, I have used it without putting a foundation in. For removing behaviors and also for teaching obedience escape style. (I dont do that anymore..generally)*
> 
> I wouldn't use it that much. I'd use it for a few things, recall and bad habits. Then again I'm not competing and never will so my dog only needs a few behaviors.
> 
> *I like it for pet training because to my mind that is more important then what you are doing on a sterile field for fun. *
> 
> *If I recall my dog to heel and require that she remain there while I am crossing a busy highway with an Amish Carriage pulled by a team of Horses going by and cyclists coming in the opposite direction.. Then I need that to be bullet proof. No do overs no mistakes.*
> 
> But I get it. You guys are pros and you know what you're doing. This was just a way to give you a reason to mention it a few times)))))) no problem. Enjoy)))))
> 
> *I dont rely on pet training for the bills, its a hobby and always has been.*
> 
> I think everyone still agrees that most people (who are not pros) shouldn't use the Ecollar unless they're willing to do lots of work first which defeats their purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
I think that most reasonably intelligent people with a basic understanding of operant conditioning can quickly learn to use a collar properly. jmo


----------



## BePrepared

martemchik said:


> I like how these threads turn into a debate that doesn’t really even involve the OP anymore…lol.
> 
> Anyways, I remember that my dog had a very good recall at 10 weeks old. Since I was the only thing he’d known since he was taken from his family, he would come running to me whenever I called him. If he wasn’t following me around anyways. So I’m quite interested to see how the OP will work through the next stage where the dog will grow up a little and stop listening to the tone. Even with a tone, this seems to be “aversion” training at a certain level. The dog wants the tone to stop, it has realized that to get the tone to stop, it goes to its owner.
> 
> is THIS what everyone seems to be talking about when they say "what happens when he isn't scared of the tone anymore" or some variation of that?
> 
> Yeah, that's 100% wrong. This is no form of aversive stimulus training. The dog responds to the tone, not because he wants it to stop but because it indicates that there will be a treat, reward, toy, etc waiting for him when he does.
> 
> This is BASIC classical conditioning. I am pairing an already present response, the dog's willingness to come to me to get a treat, with a stimulus which is initially unfamiliar, the tone... Given time and repetition, the dog begins to associate the tone with the treats. To begin with, you give a treat EVERY time the dog hears the tone, then slowly decrease the frequency. This prevents extinction (the decrease of the conditioned response) from occurring quickly.
> 
> There's absolutely no negative stimulus being applied when training with the tone.


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> In summary:
> Most of the people using prongs on their dogs are using ill fitting larger guage prongs. Their use of the prong has also taught the dog to self reward by pulling and not giving to the pressure.
> Adjust fit and equipment if necessary and add some leash pressure foundation training for both the dog and handler.
> 
> Same with E Collar. Using cheap unreliable product, not on properly, have not taught the dog to turn off the pressure. Have not shown the dog how to achieve success not just avoid pain.
> Most people use this tool as a Baseball bat when it should really be used more like a willow switch. (I am guilty of this too and the result in the training spoke for itself)
> For those who have actually stimmed themselves at 120 on a dogtra or Einstien you understand that 99% of dogs are not blowing through that level.
> Pair the collar with other aversives that the dog is more sensitive too, same with reward.
> Hence my "true beasts are rare" comment. There are some dogs that can but they dont tend to be in pet owners hands.



My dog pulls on a well fitted herm sprenger micro prong. I'm really asking how to sensitize him to it. How?

What's well fitted? No matter how tight it is it will slide down, it won't stay right behind the ears. 

I used to have it really tight right behind the ears and was told by 3 trainers to loosen it up because this way there's constant pressure on his neck. So I added two micro links. 


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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

If the equipment is working and adjusted properly look to the handler. 
Im not really going to get into Leash Pressure and escape training with a prong.
Its pretty easy and Im sure you have watched the ME vid on this topic. If you say heel and the dog does not heel and continues to pull then there is an issue.


----------



## mego

BePrepared said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like how these threads turn into a debate that doesn’t really even involve the OP anymore…lol.
> 
> Anyways, I remember that my dog had a very good recall at 10 weeks old. Since I was the only thing he’d known since he was taken from his family, he would come running to me whenever I called him. If he wasn’t following me around anyways. So I’m quite interested to see how the OP will work through the next stage where the dog will grow up a little and stop listening to the tone. Even with a tone, this seems to be “aversion” training at a certain level. The dog wants the tone to stop, it has realized that to get the tone to stop, it goes to its owner.
> 
> is THIS what everyone seems to be talking about when they say "what happens when he isn't scared of the tone anymore" or some variation of that?
> 
> Yeah, that's 100% wrong. *This is no form of aversive stimulus training. The dog responds to the tone, not because he wants it to stop but because it indicates that there will be a treat, reward, toy, etc waiting for him when he does.
> *
> This is BASIC classical conditioning. I am pairing an already present response, the dog's willingness to come to me to get a treat, with a stimulus which is initially unfamiliar, the tone... Given time and repetition, the dog begins to associate the tone with the treats. To begin with, you give a treat EVERY time the dog hears the tone, then slowly decrease the frequency. This prevents extinction (the decrease of the conditioned response) from occurring quickly.
> 
> There's absolutely no negative stimulus being applied when training with the tone.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this. It may have just so happened the first time the dog heard the tone and walked to the owner and got greeted with a nice pile of treats and a party and THAT is what made it stick (+R anyone) vs assuming that the dog is afraid of the tone. No different than saying "come" and the dog came and you had a party. The tone is distinct and since it hasn't been paired with something aversive (at least what I'm gathering) it's simply like a whistle or something in my opinion.
> 
> Maybe the tone spooked him at first and that's why he ran over to the owner, but I think really what's going on here is the dog figured out it meant good things, not that he's constantly fearful of the sound.
Click to expand...


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If the equipment is working and adjusted properly look to the handler.
> Im not really going to get into Leash Pressure and escape training with a prong.
> Its pretty easy and Im sure you have watched the ME vid on this topic. If you say heel and the dog does not heel and continues to pull then there is an issue.



I didn't know he had a video on working with a dog that has been pulling on the prong. It's def my issue, not the dog's. I don't think I said otherwise. 

So how do I fix it? There are times when he will not just pull on the micro prong, he will drag me on it. 


This goes to your comment about shocking yourself on 120 as an argument that no dog can go through that. 
I can't put that prong on my arm and add some pressure, it hurts. And he can pull my 170 lbs all over the place with it on his neck. 

So yeah, I'm thinking they're made a little diff than us. 




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----------



## LaRen616

my boy diesel said:


> get a new vet!
> move litter box higher or put up a gate
> keep pup on leash until he learns cat is off limits!


:thumbup:

My cats actually have their own bedroom. There are 3 Booda Dome litterboxes in there along with their cat condos, cat beds and scratching posts and the room is blocked off with a gate. The cats jump over the gate to get into the room and out of the room and the dogs can't get in.

Sinister was a poop eater until I bought the Booda Domes. He can't get his head in there because of the staircase.


----------



## martemchik

mego said:


> BePrepared said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this. It may have just so happened the first time the dog heard the tone and walked to the owner and got greeted with a nice pile of treats and a party and THAT is what made it stick (+R anyone) vs assuming that the dog is afraid of the tone. No different than saying "come" and the dog came and you had a party. The tone is distinct and since it hasn't been paired with something aversive (at least what I'm gathering) it's simply like a whistle or something in my opinion.
> 
> Maybe the tone spooked him at first and that's why he ran over to the owner, but I think really what's going on here is the dog figured out it meant good things, not that he's constantly fearful of the sound.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't make this assumption without watching how the dog reacts to the tone. And...what happens when the dog blows off the tone for the first time? Or the second?
> 
> This is why many times people are taught to teach a recall with a physical leash on...you don't allow the dog to fail. You have a physical way to get the dog's attention and to point him in the right direction.
Click to expand...


----------



## mego

martemchik said:


> mego said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can't make this assumption without watching how the dog reacts to the tone. And...what happens when the dog blows off the tone for the first time? Or the second?
> 
> This is why many times people are taught to teach a recall with a physical leash on...you don't allow the dog to fail. You have a physical way to get the dog's attention and to point him in the right direction.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't assume, if you notice I typed "It may have just so happened...vs assuming that the dog is afraid of the tone...Maybe the tone spooked him "
> 
> I'm exactly saying the same thing as you: you can't make the assumption about the dog being afraid or being excited.
> 
> When the dog blows the tone off you have all the exact same options you have when the dog blows the word come off. Get beyond the collar at this second, he is not stimming the dog. Sure he has the option to, I have an umbrella sitting by the door and I guess I have an option to swat my dog with that too. Everyone here is under the assumption that the OP is just going to start shocking the crap out of his dog because he asked a QUESTION about using it for this behavior. He's shown a pretty good understanding of the various types of conditioning and he might not even find it necessary to stim the dog.
> 
> To each their own. I know people that don't teach recall on leash. Yes it makes it easier for me and you too I am sure, but not everyone's method is the same. If the op doesn't want to spend tons of time desensitizing to cats and prefers to research and find an e-collar solution that won't bring damage to his dog, then that is his choice.
> 
> Everyone is assuming here...assuming that OP is shock-happy, questioning what happens when a command gets ignored, what's the next step? but the reality is if someone walked in here and said "my dog comes every time when I say Hier and he stopped chasing the cats" there aren't going to be a line of people saying "what happens when he doesn't respond to Hier". Not at that point yet. He's not shocking the dog.
Click to expand...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> I didn't know he had a video on working with a dog that has been pulling on the prong. It's def my issue, not the dog's. I don't think I said otherwise.
> 
> So how do I fix it? There are times when he will not just pull on the micro prong, he will drag me on it.
> 
> 
> This goes to your comment about shocking yourself on 120 as an argument that no dog can go through that.
> I can't put that prong on my arm and add some pressure, it hurts. And he can pull my 170 lbs all over the place with it on his neck.
> 
> So yeah, I'm thinking they're made a little diff than us.
> 
> *There is a world of difference in the pain levels. Give it a shot. *
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
He goes over it in his focussed heeling DVD...and over it and over it..lol.

If you have a harder dog thats pulling into the prong then just differentiate on your walk or obedience between free and heel.

My dog pulls on the prong too if I let her. When I say heel she is at heel and remains there until released. Forging or pulling leads to an abrupt correction (tailored to your dog). 
You can also deal with forging by teaching the dog to back up with you at heel. If the dog forges stop abruptly and walk backwards. If you taught this properly the dog should also stop and walk backwards at heel. Rinse and repeat until the dog stops forging. If the dog does not back up with you quickly, pop him until he is in position. 

ME uses pressure which works but I use multiple pops like tapping an E Ecollar. (just my preference).

I taught pet heeling sort of like they teach it in Ring (dog does not have to look at you, less precise etc), and I am teaching IPO heeling as a seperate exercise. I have encountered issues in overlap but thats just me not making things clear to the dog.

You can also install an easy command. If the dog is pulling but you dont want to make it heel. Simply say Easy and pop just hard enough that the dog allows some slack in the leash then let up. WHen he hits the end of the leash repeat as necessary. They get that one fairly quickly I find.


----------



## Muskeg

Interesting discussion. I have no problem with e-collars, used correctly they give dogs a lot of freedom while keeping them safe. But I also have experience with huskies. They are quite different from a GSD or any herding breed. If you think you can carry a "prey" item on you and make that as exciting as chasing a real live rabbit, think again. Been there, tried that. Sure, there are ball crazy huskies who excel in obedience, but I don't know any. 

Huskies are usually very "soft" dogs on the training field, but can be very hard when involved in a chase. That means blowing off a 120 electrical stim if not trained properly on e-collar foundation. Iditarod veterinarians would agree, the sled dogs that run Iditarod are very tough in many ways, but can be total wimps about minor injuries... it's a breed trait. 

So I could never correct my husky the same way I do my shepherd, totally different dogs. The shepherd would bounce back even more eager to work, the husky would freak out, try to get away, and avoid me. Shepherd will work for a long time with no reward just for a bit of tug, husky, no way. He's in it for himself and will work as long as he feels it is worth it for him. I worked on my husky's recall a ton, from the day I brought him home. Still, I needed e-collar for "crittering" and for reliable recall. And even then, he gets more management (on leash unless in the woods), than the shepherds. 

The nice thing about huskies is they usually aren't reactive, are generally confident and self assured, and have next to no dog or human aggression. But when it comes to training, this is a very different breed than the shepherd. "Training in drive" can happen, I've been there, but it is just not as intense, flashy, or reliable as a shepherd. And working for a ball/tug reward? Meh... probably not. A cat walking by, or a bag blowing in the wind, can trigger that prey drive, and the dog is off. 

If you want off-leash reliability with recall, I would save the e-collar work for later after laying a foundation. But if you are getting results with the cat chasing, can't argue with that. Again, though, this is like a 4-5 year old kid, he is nowhere near being a teenager...


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## Blitzkrieg1

Here is how I taught "Pet Heeling". In the vid I was using an E Collar not a prong but I did the exact same things with the prong before I used the E Collar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yle7naUfEhQ


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## martemchik

Muskeg...another great point. The dog is a mix, who knows what traits it will have or won't have of each breed. That's why I think its huge to not resort to these other methods too quickly with a young dog...you just never know what you might trigger in them.

And although things can be triggered with more conventional methods (including a flat collar) I feel like the chances of that happening are much smaller.


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## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> He goes over it in his focussed heeling DVD...and over it and over it..lol.
> 
> If you have a harder dog thats pulling into the prong then just differentiate on your walk or obedience between free and heel.
> 
> My dog pulls on the prong too if I let her. When I say heel she is at heel and remains there until released. Forging or pulling leads to an abrupt correction (tailored to your dog).
> You can also deal with forging by teaching the dog to back up with you at heel. If the dog forges stop abruptly and walk backwards. If you taught this properly the dog should also stop and walk backwards at heel. Rinse and repeat until the dog stops forging. If the dog does not back up with you quickly, pop him until he is in position.
> 
> ME uses pressure which works but I use multiple pops like tapping an E Ecollar. (just my preference).
> 
> I taught pet heeling sort of like they teach it in Ring (dog does not have to look at you, less precise etc), and I am teaching IPO heeling as a seperate exercise. I have encountered issues in overlap but thats just me not making things clear to the dog.
> 
> You can also install an easy command. If the dog is pulling but you dont want to make it heel. Simply say Easy and pop just hard enough that the dog allows some slack in the leash then let up. WHen he hits the end of the leash repeat as necessary. They get that one fairly
> 
> 
> quickly I find.



Lol I didn't buy focused heeling. That one sounded straight sport related and I skipped over it. Maybe I shouldn't've)))))

Anyway, someone already told me to differentiate between easy and heel but I never want him ahead. IME once he gets ahead even an inch then he will keep getting ahead little by little and then he's pulling. Once he's ahead at least a little I get lost at what point to correct. I already let him get a foot ahead, why am I correcting now? I feel I'm confusing him and as someone told me after watching a video of us walk, 'he doesn't understand why he's corrected, he feels the corrections are just part of the walk'. 

That's a sad thought. I've been very careful with corrections for pulling since then. 


I like the idea of backing up. And I saw ME mention it in Ecollar video yesterday. I will teach that. 
Right now we make uturns when he gets ahead and my head spins from uturning non stop lol


OK so your dog will pull if yu let her? That means they never actually learn not to pull?











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## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Here is how I taught "Pet Heeling". In the vid I was using an E Collar not a prong but I did the exact same things with the prong before I used the E Collar.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yle7naUfEhQ





You used the Ecollar in the video? I didn't catch it. 

Nice)))))), i'd be happy if my doggie was on my leg like that. This and the backing up is in the focused heeling DVD?

Also, when she sits and you move she sits closer to you, you move again, she sits closer... What's that called? And which video has that?


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## Chip18

Chip18 said:


> Well I taught my Boxer to chase rabbits to the North (the mountains) and not the South (the highway) with my voice. So you don't always needs a tool if you have a solid relationship with your dog!
> 
> Certainly "I" would not advocate putting an E collar on a puppy! Nevertheless, the OP 'appears" to have solved this problem?
> 
> Credit where credit is do so congratulations to the OP sounds like it worked for you!
> 
> OK all carry on!





mego said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone here is under the assumption that the OP is just going to start shocking the crap out of his dog because he asked a QUESTION about using it for this behavior. He's shown a pretty good understanding of the various types of conditioning and he might not even find it necessary to stim the dog.
> .
> 
> Everyone is assuming here...assuming that OP is shock-happy, questioning what happens when a command gets ignored, what's the next step? but the reality is if someone walked in here and said "my dog comes every time when I say Hier and he stopped chasing the cats" there aren't going to be a line of people saying "what happens when he doesn't respond to Hier". Not at that point yet. He's not shocking the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer the term "most" instead of everyone!
> 
> Carry on again.
Click to expand...


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## mego

Chip18 said:


> mego said:
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer the term "most" instead of everyone!
> 
> Carry on again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, even I'm generalizing. Sorry Chip, I haven't read every page in the thread and I guess I was a little irritated writing my reply because every response I did peruse was along the same lines.
> 
> Anywho, from me as well, carry on!
Click to expand...


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## Chip18

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Here is how I taught "Pet Heeling". In the vid I was using an E Collar not a prong but I did the exact same things with the prong before I used the E Collar.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yle7naUfEhQ


Wow that is impressive! How do you do that?? 

My guy has absolutely 'zero" interest in toys! He walks off leash front or back (I let him chose) and does not try to bite the crap out of people or attack dogs! 

But all I saw was a what your dog can do not a how I did it, what did I miss???


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## Chip18

mego said:


> Chip18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, even I'm generalizing. Sorry Chip, I haven't read every page in the thread and I guess I was a little irritated writing my reply because every response I did peruse was along the same lines.
> 
> Anyhow, from me as well, carry on!
> 
> 
> 
> Someone else just chimed in with a compliment also.
> 
> It's done so time to let "That" go but the thread is becoming actually very informative!
Click to expand...


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## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> Lol I didn't buy focused heeling. That one sounded straight sport related and I skipped over it. Maybe I shouldn't've)))))
> 
> Anyway, someone already told me to differentiate between easy and heel but I never want him ahead. IME once he gets ahead even an inch then he will keep getting ahead little by little and then he's pulling. Once he's ahead at least a little I get lost at what point to correct. I already let him get a foot ahead, why am I correcting now? I feel I'm confusing him and as someone told me after watching a video of us walk, 'he doesn't understand why he's corrected, he feels the corrections are just part of the walk'.
> 
> That's a sad thought. I've been very careful with corrections for pulling since then.
> *The DVD is good for fixing a lot of issues you run into with heeling. I taught the correct position standing still then added movement. Dog forges. Pop pop pop until back in position. Make the position like stone it never changes. No leeway make it black or white
> For me its her shoulder to my leg. I find teaching the dog to step back with you or follow the left leg gets positioning more clear in the dogs head. Also teach with a high value object on the ground. Put the dog in drive it creates conflict but also brings clarity faster imo.*
> 
> I like the idea of backing up. And I saw ME mention it in Ecollar video yesterday. I will teach that.
> Right now we make uturns when he gets ahead and my head spins from uturning non stop lol
> 
> *Gatordog did this in her protection vid to stop forging during the transport. Looks like it worked well for her.*
> 
> OK so your dog will pull if yu let her? That means they never actually learn not to pull?
> 
> 
> 
> *I could probably break her of it If I wanted too but I like pulling in protection. So I just put it on que. I tend to be a bit intense with OB which can cause hander conflict on the field. So I let her get away with some stuff.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I used it several times watch real close you can see her shake her head a bit here and there.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Chip18 said:


> Wow that is impressive! How do you do that??
> 
> My guy has absolutely 'zero" interest in toys! He walks off leash front or back (I let him chose) and does not try to bite the crap out of people or attack dogs!
> 
> But all I saw was a what your dog can do not a how I did it, what did I miss???


Thanks chip.
If the dog doesnt have object drive use food and marker training then layer the prong and e collar over it. I have vid of a dutchy and a GSD that I trained with collar and Food. Not as nice but when the drive is low you do what works.

I taught her using leash pressure with prong and later e collar. Paired it with marker training. first food then ball


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## lalachka

Gatordog did what? Uturns or backing up?


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## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> Gatordog did what? Uturns or backing up?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


backing up in the back transport.


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## jafo220

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> backing up in the back transport.


Where did you get your ball? 

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## james0225

Your puppy at ten (10) weeks old is way too young to make the connection/association between the stimulation and the Cat. Moreover, if you use it as Positive Punishment (PP) and the pup does not have a complete understanding of the remote training collar, he can redirect on the Cat as he will believe the cat is responsible for the discomfort coming from the eCollar. 
IMHO it is much better for you to keep them isolated for another of couple of months and then use Negative Reinforcement with the COME command on the remote training collar, and ONLY when your GSD FULLY understands the STIM to be coming from your command you will lessen the chances of the dog redirecting on the cat.
Hope this helps!


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## Baillif

A ten week old puppy redirecting on a cat when e collar stimmed at punishment level? Very very very unlikely.

However, if you cant positive punish a 10 week old puppy effectively with your hand you have issues ahead of you.


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