# Feedback on these 2 dogs pedigrees



## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Pros/Cons ? DDR/Czech ? How to know which dog is from what line ? Sorry, still novice at pedigrees.  


~Thanks~

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/pedigree/411782.html

Adolpha Ria - German shepherd dog


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Individually or how they would be paired together?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Individually or how they would be paired together?


 
Both................. 

Any help on pedigree reading would also be great or links on how to do so.  I do know what some titles mean (not all & still confusing), just not how to tell 1 line from another.  


~Thanks~


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Rex Ludwigseck is all DDR. He's a littermate to Ron v Ludwigseck and is closely related to my Xita (his two parents are Xita's father's father and her mother's mother).

The bitch goes back to Czech and West German lines. Ron v Bernhardt-Mader produced some very serious dogs, as did Gent od Police. I don't know the top side of the dam's pedigree, but it's all Czech, going back to old DDR lines.

I personally would not be interested in a pup out of those two dogs. I'd think you'd end up with some very civil dogs with only moderate prey drive. Good guard dogs. Should be handsome.

I'm not saying that I dislike the bloodlines--just that I don't think that the puppies would be my type of dog and it's not a breeding that I would choose to do.

I'd like to see some evidence of the dogs having been worked. And hip x-rays for the first 2 generations.

Christine


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## BucksMom (Aug 13, 2007)

(some very civil dogs) What do you mean by this? 

I want to make sure I understand. 
Thanks


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Thanks Christine !  I also would like to know, why you wouldn't choose these 2 for a breeding ? Any clue to know if their drive would be, low,med,high ? Any clue on temps of these lines ? How do you tell via pedigree, what lines w/o knowing the dogs ? Here is a pic of 2 pups he has. I know not a great photo, but look like focused pups.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

BTW, Seen you said, mod drive, so med ?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I sent this in a PM but figured I'd post it here too.
Rex is Kopper's grandpa. I've never met Rex but his son (Kopper's dad) is a fairly serious dog, very aloof with strangers but affectionate with his family, really a one-person dog. Lowish to moderate prey drive. His defense threshold is fairly high but again, very serious when it's turned on. Settles nicely in the house. 

The breeder elected to breed him to a "hotter" bitch-- higher energy and higher prey drive and I feel like Kopper has a nice balance of the two


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

BucksMom said:


> (some very civil dogs) What do you mean by this?
> 
> I want to make sure I understand.
> Thanks


By "some very civil" dogs -- I mean dogs who won't let you touch them unless you're their person. Dogs who won't let anyone in the house or near their crate. Dogs who are not scared of the person, necessarily, just very serious about telling strangers to stay away from their property (including crate, car, person, etc.) "Civil" in this context is, as I understand it, "dogs for civil service work" -- police, k-9, military bitework.

You put together dogs who are known for their defense, you're going to get a lot of defense in the puppies.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

LuvourGSDs said:


> Thanks Christine !  I also would like to know, why you wouldn't choose these 2 for a breeding ? Any clue to know if their drive would be, low,med,high ? Any clue on temps of these lines ? How do you tell via pedigree, what lines w/o knowing the dogs ? Here is a pic of 2 pups he has. I know not a great photo, but look like focused pups.


I don't understand what you don't understand....

Pups are very cute.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I sent this in a PM but figured I'd post it here too.
> Rex is Kopper's grandpa. I've never met Rex but his son (Kopper's dad) is a fairly serious dog, very aloof with strangers but affectionate with his family, really a one-person dog. Lowish to moderate prey drive. His defense threshold is fairly high but again, very serious when it's turned on. Settles nicely in the house.
> 
> The breeder elected to breed him to a "hotter" bitch-- higher energy and higher prey drive and I feel like Kopper has a nice balance of the two


Yeah, sounds about right. 

I speculated on what Rex will put into his pups based on my female from very similar lines. He may have or may add more or less prey drive or more or less defense or better or worse nerves to his pups than my dog, but it's unlikely that he's vastly different. 

So, based on what I know of my dog and some other info on what his brother Ron produces, I'd say Rex has basically good nerves, moderate prey, some amount of defense that is likely higher than his prey.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Oh I forgot to mention nerves. From what I've seen of this line they have very strong nerves. Kopper at this point is basically fearless; the only thing that bothers him is the anger of my older dog. His dad also has very solid, stable nerves.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You're looking for a dog for agility, right? Do you want a house dog who will be integrated into the rest of your pack? What kind of training, etc. would the dog be getting? What type of temperament do you want? I think it might help to tell people what kind of dog you're looking for.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LuvourGSDs said:


> Thanks Christine !  I also would like to know, why you wouldn't choose these 2 for a breeding ? Any clue to know if their drive would be, low,med,high ? Any clue on temps of these lines ? How do you tell via pedigree, what lines w/o knowing the dogs ? Here is a pic of 2 pups he has. I know not a great photo, but look like focused pups.


You can't really tell if the pups are focused or not by the picture. The guy might have been holding a steak. 

As far as telling what lines without knowing the dogs, like Christine said you might know dogs related to the dogs in question, you might know the kennel and what they've produced before. 

The only reason I know anything about Rex and Ron Ludwigseck is because I researched the lines when I was considering buying Kopper and I know a Rex son, have met him several times, and watched him work.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Sorry Christine, just wondering without knowing the dogs, how are you telling what line this dog is from vs that line ? Also all the titles & what they are ?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Emoore said:


> As far as telling what lines without knowing the dogs, like Christine said you might know dogs related to the dogs in question, you might know the kennel and what they've produced before.
> 
> The only reason I know anything about Rex and Ron Ludwigseck is because I researched the lines when I was considering buying Kopper and I know a Rex son, have met him several times, and watched him work.


 
Gotcha about knowing the dogs, figured that. Harder when the average person doesn't know much about this dog or that unless we do our research. 

Did you like Rex's son ?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LuvourGSDs said:


> Gotcha about knowing the dogs, figured that. Harder when the average person doesn't know much about this dog or that unless we do our research.
> 
> Did you like Rex's son ?


You have to spend a lot of time doing research. I'm only in Kindergarten about this stuff, but I can already tell you if you want to know it you have to spend a lot of time learning it. 

Yes, I liked Josh (the Rex son) very much. I wouldn't have bought one of his pups if I didn't! I liked the dam as well.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I had a grandson out of Zorro's (different female) he was my 'heart' dog

Anyhow, he was the 'best', however, he was not a dog that would excel at agility structurally, long and heavy bodied, big boned. Not alot of prey drive, very aloof, biddable, but again for me structurally not agility material, but also again, different pedigree.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

As Christine pointed out, both the sire and dam that you posted don't have titles. When you're in a situation like that, you have to do a lot more --yes!-- research. For instance, I met Kopper's parents several times under different circumstances and got to watch them work. I've been around enough dogs and evaluated enough dogs that I knew what I was looking for. The price also reflected the fact that he came from untitled parents. If that's not the case in your situation,--they're in another state, for example, or they're asking $1200 or $1500 for these pups-- I'd walk away.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well I actually love Sando haus Iris -- and did breed to Rex Ludwigseck. 

The female I bred him to was Cox v h Ratz , a beautiful bicolour female with tons of energy Cox von Ratz - German shepherd dog . She was very "sport" , lots of flash , very quick. 

Rex is described as "a male that loves children, has medium prey , good defense, .....tracks like he is looking for the last calorie on earth. He is a tracking machine, he learns as he tracks ... he tastes the scent ...thinks, he is wonderful to watch. Rex is social and confident in social situations. I would like more prey, and I would like more food drive .... but I have never had a tracking dog like him. Rex sires better than he is . " quote from the owner back in 2007 .

The litter did not turn out the way I wanted it . The female (dam) honestly got on my nerves. Was she confident. Heck yes . She was very "sport" . Not so much a thinking dog, not natural in her track, much too active , just could not settle herself , not good for detail work, and not a strong hunt drive either, rather on the visual side, a quick effort and then go on to something else. 

Unfortunately she dominated the progeny. I saw little of what I would expect from Rex's background. Rex is not unfamiliar territory as I have used those lines many times in different combinations . 

The female however was brand new to me on the top line -- sport V Aro Kleinen Birke, but she did have Dina Gran Sasso which I hoped had some influence (herding) and did not come through. 

I held on to the entire litter till they were about 7 or 8 months to play it out and give it time -- and then ended up selling the dam and the pups -- to someone that liked exactly that type of dog.

Would I breed to Rex again . Yes. I hope he is still around when I am ready with a chosen female.

That is my adventure in dogs.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

May I ask............... Anyone know anything on this bitch ?

I am when I add to my pk looking for a great all around non dominate pup. Great nerves, med/high drive. The temp is the biggest thing for me as I like to take my GSD's everywhere & like when people, kids, etc are able to walk right up & love on them. I like a social GSD, not into real aloof..............

I understand civil may be good to some & had one breeder tell me just this, my dogs are very civil, but knowing what that is 100%, I might be iffy as I do like a friendly GSD & not one wanting to bark crazy when you walk by their crate, car, etc.

Has Rex been owned by others ?


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## BucksMom (Aug 13, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> By "some very civil" dogs -- I mean dogs who won't let you touch them unless you're their person. Dogs who won't let anyone in the house or near their crate. Dogs who are not scared of the person, necessarily, just very serious about telling strangers to stay away from their property (including crate, car, person, etc.) "Civil" in this context is, as I understand it, "dogs for civil service work" -- police, k-9, military bitework.
> 
> You put together dogs who are known for their defense, you're going to get a lot of defense in the puppies.


Thank you, it helps to understand the meaning behind the word.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LuvourGSDs said:


> I like to take my GSD's everywhere & like when people, kids, etc are able to walk right up & love on them. I like a social GSD, not into real aloof


I'm thinking that you might want to consider something besides a DDR Shepherd. The ones I've met and heard of are quite aloof and don't much care for strangers loving on them. 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the AKC's written standard of the GSD does say, "a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships."


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think you should get an American line dog....they are usually very social, people can walk up to them and love them, kinda what you say you are looking for.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not only the AKC written standard but the breed standard coming down from the SV since the creation of the breed. The standards do not say "outgoing" they do say aloof to strangers. That means neutral. Neither friendly , nor shy, nor aggressive to strangers. With family it is a different matter . This is what loyalty is . In public the dog is calm and tolerant . This aloofness is a very important feature of the breed that must be maintained. This is the very fabric of the dog . A sound nerve base is important as there has to be a natural suspicion . This does not mean the dog is unsafe . This trait should not be exclusive to ddr .

I had good opportunity to see this aloofness in action in GSD in training for use as guide dogs for the blind , in training with Canine Vision Canada. Right in the heart of downtown Toronto , Yonge Street, where the Eaton Centre had been recently built . Arrangements were made for me to meet up with the trainers and dogs in tow.
The GSD would be so serious and single minded taking care of their charges weaving in and out of some of the heaviest pedestrian traffic you could imagine. Never were they distracted by some admirer gushing over the beautiful dog. When they came to stop lights people just could not resist touching the dog . Never did the GSD loose his focus on his job . They did not react , friendly or hostile.
Meanwhile the Golden Retrievers and Labs -- social butterflies , drifting their charge off course to visit the nice person who said aw look at the doggy. 
German Shepherds should not be Golden Retrievers at the core .
Stable , sound nerves , breed specific behaviour says it all.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Praise the Lord and pass the bisquits....Thanks Carmen for giving a good description and example of what the breed should be. Plus I like you used the seeing-eye example as you have some that don't want to accept the fact that the breed can be aloof and strong, and still provide service to the handicapped. This is noble breed but don't change it and everybody should'nt desire one, if they can't accept it as it is supposed to be. Destroy something else...LOL


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I wasn't able to find the actual word "aloof" in the English translation of the SV standard I looked at. I got a strong sense of aloofness from reading it, but didn't find the actual word, which I wanted for this thread. Is it in there?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Carmen's post is very good - stable and aloof does not mean aggressive - it means they can give a rat's behind if everyone wants to pet them - they accept it but do not seek it out....

As far as civil - taking it a step further - civil is not aloof - it can overlap of course...but civil is a dog IMO who takes a threat very seriously and responds in kind - not in fear or self defense (the oft misused and misunderstood 'defense') but in confidence and as the character is supposed to be - a dog who is strong against a threat. I have a VERY civil dog. A dog who the helper would slip a sleeve to, which would get spit out, and she would go over the sleeve to him...almost got him a few times. It was work to teach her that it was a game. She reacts to a threat and is social with children - loves them. Will spend hours playing fetch with a child or a person who has Down's Syndrome. Totally trustworthy. But don't put your hand on her vehicle or raise your hand to me.

As far as "knowing" what these dogs are - we all (Carmen, Cliff, Christine etc) STUDY pedigrees...we learn what kennel names fall into which "type"...and we also know, from experience, what types are associated with what characteristics - both physical and mental.

You want an agility dog??? Go WGR/Belgian sport lines - Ufo (from MY experience)for sure will give you the high energy, agile happy social dog....avoid the pedigrees with dogs known for civil/social aggression

Lee


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> praise the lord and pass the bisquits....thanks carmen for giving a good description and example of what the breed should be. Plus i like you used the seeing-eye example as you have some that don't want to accept the fact that the breed can be aloof and strong, and still provide service to the handicapped. This is noble breed but don't change it and everybody should'nt desire one, if they can't accept it as it is supposed to be. Destroy something else...lol


where is the bowing smilie??????

Yes yes yes!!!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good point Lee,
Nothing comes for free...the knowledge of pedigrees comes from academic, experience, and communication with many people and many sources.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wow --- so I'm excited by some of the intelligence here . Lee do NOT forget to include Anne / Vandal --- she nailed it on the "locked in prey" . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> I think you should get an American line dog....they are usually very social, people can walk up to them and love them, kinda what you say you are looking for.


Nope, sorry.............. 

I'm not saying I want a Golden, just not into real aloof. I totally feel it depends on how much you socialize your pup/dogs. Our crew isn't like a Golden, but do like people & kids. If someone steps near me, walks towards me out in public, they like to go right up & see/get pets (slightly aloof).  I have been around some GSD's that won't even come over to ya for nothing & not into that, sorry. 

I have German & 100% plan to stay that way.  Like the sable WL & seems only DDR & Czech for those lines............... 

Thanks for pedigree info.  I figured it was just knowing the dogs with yrs of research. 

~Thanks~


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I think you should get an American line dog....they are usually very social, people can walk up to them and love them, kinda what you say you are looking for.


I hope you were kidding? There is no way My ASL dogs would want a stranger to walk up to them and love on them. My dogs are very aloof with strangers, not afraid, just do not really care about other people, they will allow some one to pet them , they do not return the affection. again blanket statements , I am getting tired of this , Seems I am constantly defending ASL's on this forum. I am sorry Cliffson , But it is 2011 not 1989 .


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

horsegirl said:


> I hope you were kidding? There is no way My ASL dogs would want a stranger to walk up to them and love on them. My dogs are very aloof with strangers, not afraid, just do not really care about other people, they will allow some one to pet them , they do not return the affection. again blanket statements , I am getting tired of this , Seems I am constantly defending ASL's on this forum. I am sorry Cliffson , But it is 2011 not 1989 .


 
I'm not bashing ASL............... Just prefer the look of the German. To each their own, in the end, they are all GSD's.  The GSD's that would not give me the time of day, pups & adults have been the ASL. I understand the breed is aloof, but to a degree is good.  I really do feel it's all about how you socialize them, just my opinion though.  I like my crew to like people & would love to do therpy work someday.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LuvourGSDs said:


> I totally feel it depends on how much you socialize your pup/dogs.


I really don't know how to say this, and I'm really REALLY not trying to be rude, but you are incorrect. Where a dog falls on the aloof vs. friendly, shy vs. outgoing scale has more to do with nature than nurture. You can't make a naturally aloof dog friendly with socialization; you can't make a shy dog outgoing with socialization. A dog has a natural range where they're going to fall unless you completely brutalize them to make them vicious. You can make a naturally aloof dog a little _less_ aloof, but you really can't make him outgoing and friendly. You can make a shy dog a little _less_ shy, but you can't overcome genetics and make him completely comfortable with strangers. Goodness knows I've tried.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I really don't know how to say this, and I'm really REALLY not trying to be rude, but you are incorrect. Where a dog falls on the aloof vs. friendly, shy vs. outgoing scale has more to do with nature than nurture. You can't make a naturally aloof dog friendly with socialization; you can't make a shy dog outgoing with socialization. A dog has a natural range where they're going to fall unless you completely brutalize them to make them vicious. You can make a naturally aloof dog a little _less_ aloof, but you really can't make him outgoing and friendly. You can make a shy dog a little _less_ shy, but you can't overcome genetics and make him completely comfortable with strangers. Goodness knows I've tried.


Gotcha................


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I really don't know how to say this, and I'm really REALLY not trying to be rude, but you are incorrect. Where a dog falls on the aloof vs. friendly, shy vs. outgoing scale has more to do with nature than nurture. You can't make a naturally aloof dog friendly with socialization; you can't make a shy dog outgoing with socialization. A dog has a natural range where they're going to fall unless you completely brutalize them to make them vicious. You can make a naturally aloof dog a little _less_ aloof, but you really can't make him outgoing and friendly. You can make a shy dog a little _less_ shy, but you can't overcome genetics and make him completely comfortable with strangers. Goodness knows I've tried.


Just to give an example.

Stark has seen the same group of people EVERY NIGHT since he was 10 weeks old. We train with them, live in the same building and go on outtings together.

One man who is IN LOVE with Stark, has yet to get a good pet/cuddle in.

He says, "he wants Stark to come to him on his own terms and won't force the interaction". 

I have told him over and over again - "It probably won't happen. He knows your there but unless your his "mom" or live with him he could care less about you, no offence."

Stark is VERY aloof, you could call his name over and over and he would look to me to see if *I* wanted him to go to them.

He has been around people and socialized up the wazoo, been to all sorts of classes and training groups, etc.. still could care less about others besides "his pack".

That is one important aspect about the breed that I like.

If you want a friendly and social dog for agility, why not look to other breeds such as a BC or Aussie?


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> That is one important aspect about the breed that I like.
> 
> If you want a friendly and social dog for agility, why not look to other breeds such as a BC or Aussie?


Yes, me too. I did not say my crew will go away with anyone, they are aloof to some degree. I do not allow my dogs to bark like mad when ones walks by our car, crate, etc.

I own 3 GSD's & that's all I will ever own, sorry................ 

This post is getting way off the topic as they always do. 

Thanks to those that have replied with info on these lines.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

LuvourGSDs said:


> This post is getting way off the topic as they always do.


Yeah, seems like about 3 pages is the max you can go without getting off topic.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

LuvourGSDs said:


> I have German & 100% plan to stay that way.  Like the sable WL & seems only DDR & Czech for those lines...............


By this do you mean that you are not finding sable workingline dogs who are not DDR and Czech? That's fairly backwards.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> By this do you mean that you are not finding sable workingline dogs who are not DDR and Czech? That's fairly backwards.


Yeah I didn't quite get that common either??

West German Working Lines seem like a much better fit for an agility-only dog....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think many folks have these color preferences but when you start looking at all the other things that are truly important...........It is a paradigm adjustment because we grow up conditioned to how dogs "look" not how structurally fit for duty and temperament, drives, etc.

My little West German working lines female -- (before the HD ) EXTREME agility, surefootedness, speed. My Czech/DDR male -- can plow through anything. And I mean plow. He is clunky like a bulldozer, can work all day, and strong as an ox but fast and graceful....NO WAY.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Horsegirl,
I went to the Boardwalk Kennel Club show a month ago in WildwoodNJ. (I think that's 2011), it was an all breed show(just so the specialist don't tell me to go to all breed show),I looked at the dogs in all the classes. I think I can read dogs pretty decent....they were basically almost Goldenlike in temperament, or even worse as shy as can be. I saw dogs that won with tail tucked under body, worried look in their eyes, licking of lips, jumping up on handler in anxiety. This is what I saw....now I can either say I imagined what I saw, I can lie about what I saw so I won't be bashing, tell the truth about what I saw and then I am bashing, or take your word and forget what I saw....yep....2011.Not being funny, but what do I believe? I don't doubt you have an aloof dog if you say so, but what the OP was describing is not really GS temperament by nature and I was just telling her places I have found this temperament to be commomplace.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I have to agree with Cliff here on Temperament in the ASL. Most of them appear to be aloof at ringside, but it is due to shyness, not true aloofness. And yet some of them are very social dogs. I think that most breeders of ASL dogs don't understand correct GSD temperament.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I dont really belong in this topic because everyone in this thread knows alot about different lines and I pretty much know nothing.

I just wanted to tell you that my American line/West German Show Line GSD is EXTREMELY friendly, too friendly, he greets everyone with a wagging tail and kisses. He lets strangers in my house and greets them as though they are best friends. He also constantly demands attention, is a huge cuddlebug, he has low/medium drive, he is tall, lanky and really long. He is fast and he is a great jumper but he definitly wouldn't be a great agility dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My west german working line dog is fairly social-she is pretty focused when she is working-she is smaller so she is very agile


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

at one ASL dog show there was a dog handled by a pricey professional handler . When it was his turn to do the individual gait and run up to the judge so that they can see the action coming , the dog continued , ran up to the judge, rose onto his hind legs , paws on the judges shoulder and started to wildly lick the judges face.

Ewww.

The judge said spinning in a circle so that all at ringside could hear " and they say we have a problem in temperament " . The crowd laughed and applauded.

Oh boy.

That is the problem. That dog was entirely insecure , far too friendly , soft , showing submissive calming signals -- overwhelmed . Bad GSD temperament.

Had the judge given a flick with clip board or stepped forward the dog might have yanked the handler off his feet going the opposite way.

There are shows where dogs "reduce in size" crouch , fold , when a judge approaches wearing a visor or the "bad hat". 

I have been at trials and shows where the dogs were disturbed by little decorative v shaped flags rimming the rings . 

It's not good.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Andaka said:


> I have to agree with Cliff here on Temperament in the ASL. Most of them appear to be aloof at ringside, but it is due to shyness, not true aloofness. And yet some of them are very social dogs. I think that most breeders of ASL dogs don't understand correct GSD temperament.


Sad but true, all too often.....I've had ASL GSD breeders tell me they WANT to breed GSDs with golden retriever temperaments......YUCK!!!!! (and not for nuthin', I'm not sure exactly what that means anymore....I've been around too many goldens lately that don't have golden temperaments either!)

My older bi-color girl, her idea of social is she pokes people she knows ("HI! I see you.") then walks away. She doesn't really play with other dogs either, she more or less ignores them.....she lives for The Ball. Mike is the weird one, he hates other dogs but loves people....he body slams the ones he REALLY loves! The Bunny, she's still a puppy so who knows how she'll end up but right now she's very social with everyone, dogs and people. But lately I see changes in the way she looks at strangers, she's certainly no push-over. All 3 of these dogs are German working lines, and they're related. 

My previous 3 GSDs were ASL and ASL x a German VA dog. They were all a little weird in different ways. The 2 ASL x German dogs were brother and sister...the male was confident, extremely tolerant of other dogs and thought he was King (we called him the Lion King) but had no tolerance for people outside our family. He had to be watched every minute around people. His sister, she was very pushy with other dogs (she was DEFINITELY the fun police, and had no tolerance for misbehavior!) but would run from any guy who tried to pet her or stared at her too hard. Their mom was your old-style ASL, a Reno grand-daughter. She was a beautiful girl and had a lot of character, but I didn't know as much then to see her weaknesses. She was a much better dog than many I was around at that time, but not as good as the dogs I know now.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Horsegirl,
> I went to the Boardwalk Kennel Club show a month ago in WildwoodNJ. (I think that's 2011), it was an all breed show(just so the specialist don't tell me to go to all breed show),I looked at the dogs in all the classes. I think I can read dogs pretty decent....they were basically almost Goldenlike in temperament, or even worse as shy as can be. I saw dogs that won with tail tucked under body, worried look in their eyes, licking of lips, jumping up on handler in anxiety. This is what I saw....now I can either say I imagined what I saw, I can lie about what I saw so I won't be bashing, tell the truth about what I saw and then I am bashing, or take your word and forget what I saw....yep....2011.Not being funny, but what do I believe? I don't doubt you have an aloof dog if you say so, but what the OP was describing is not really GS temperament by nature and I was just telling her places I have found this temperament to be commomplace.


Hello, I have to appologize as I just scanned the actual postings and when I came to your post I got a little angry. I am not the best at debating so I will copy the post I just wrote to carmspack , I think this sums up my thoughts well.

I agree that there are way too many GSD's that do not show true character. I do not know all ASLl breeders but the ones i associate with are working hard to bring the health and confidence back into ASL dogs. I do not communicate well , I guess what I am trying to say on this forum; with all "types" of GSD's, we have breeders that try to improve the breed and others that do not put as much thought to keeping true to what this great breed should be about. I love the fact that my dogs are confident , aloof , bold and very loving to their pack. I just lucked out with finding a group of people that love to show yet want the strength of character in their dogs. My breeder only breeds dogs with correct temperament , health certified, and that can win in the show ring. I so appreciate all ideas, opinions and expertise of everyone on this forum. I am not a very good debater and sometime have a hard time getting my point across. 

to add: it is not just ASL's breeders messing with GSD's true character , there are uniformed , uncaring breeders that breed all "types" of GSD's.

another add: I agree with you that the OP if they want a Golden in GSD's body , they should just get a golden , It starts right there , with what the buyer wants. If there was enough people that wanted purple GSD's someone would breed for it--- And that is a true shame!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

with only best intentions meant, how horsegirl is your dog's temperament evaluated for all those things. How are the ASL breeders bringing health and confidence back into their dogs.
Now there were some very decent ASL dogs that could work , at least held their own to the extent that AKC obedience and tracking allowed, said with honest respect. One of the ladies was Winifred Strickland and her dogs under her Wynthea kennels. I don't know if she is still active or even if she is still alive. She did a great deal in promoting obedience and some nice dogs. She has all my respect . If you read her obedience books you will see that there were no treats, just good bonding and lots of genuine praise. Her dogs were regal - in that aloofness that royalty has . They paid attention to her without that exaggerated attention that you see in sport , conditioned by having wieners spat out , balls under the chin , etc. Never an embarrassment. She was the one to beat (in obedience) . Somewhere in my GSD Quarterly or GSD Review there are ads promoting her new studs which were German imports. If anyone knows who these dogs were that would be interesting. 
Look, there were some real decent american lines, Yoncalla's Mike and progeny , Merkels Quaestor and progeny, Paladen produced well , I know there are others. The problem was that , like Germany with its Canto, north americans went over board with Lance . Mary Vurma who lives just down the road took her female , a Lance daughter? (mirheims abby?) and inbred on Lance . The rest is history with Zeto and Zeus. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Horsegirl,
No problem...you are right that there are ASL breeders that have good solid dogs, Andaka on this forum is one of them....but it would be disingenuous for me to suggest this is the norm, at this period, as I don't see that yet. Hopefully, this will change in the future, but it will take a change of attitudes and also participation by these dogs in activities that will adequately test them. Just breeding to a German import showline and then going back to the base won't make a difference. More attitudes like yours will help for improvement there.


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## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> with only best intentions meant, how horsegirl is your dog's temperament evaluated for all those things. How are the ASL breeders bringing health and confidence back into their dogs.
> Now there were some very decent ASL dogs that could work , at least held their own to the extent that AKC obedience and tracking allowed, said with honest respect. One of the ladies was Winifred Strickland and her dogs under her Wynthea kennels. I don't know if she is still active or even if she is still alive. She did a great deal in promoting obedience and some nice dogs. She has all my respect . If you read her obedience books you will see that there were no treats, just good bonding and lots of genuine praise. Her dogs were regal - in that aloofness that royalty has . They paid attention to her without that exaggerated attention that you see in sport , conditioned by having wieners spat out , balls under the chin , etc. Never an embarrassment. She was the one to beat (in obedience) . Somewhere in my GSD Quarterly or GSD Review there are ads promoting her new studs which were German imports. If anyone knows who these dogs were that would be interesting.
> Look, there were some real decent american lines, Yoncalla's Mike and progeny , Merkels Quaestor and progeny, Paladen produced well , I know there are others. The problem was that , like Germany with its Canto, north americans went over board with Lance . Mary Vurma who lives just down the road took her female , a Lance daughter? (mirheims abby?) and inbred on Lance . The rest is history with Zeto and Zeus.
> 
> ...


HI, 
to answer your question, Many of my associates do not stop at just getting their CH with their dogs, they continue on with herding, CGC, Rally, obedience, tracking and SAR work. While that may not be impressive to you, I feel a dog that can move on and excel at more than just looking pretty shows character. Personally , My dog and I have started obedience, my dog has been evaluated for SAR work and was accepted (to much commitment for me). I own horses, my boy has, since he was a pup been trained (mostly natural for him) to help bring the herd in , direct them to their appropriate stalls (horses do not always want to go where they know they should be) , helps with turn outs, deals with aggressive horses well. Louie follows my directions with no hesitation, has a healthy respect for the horses but is bold with no fear. He patrols the barn and surrounding acres diligently, if he sees someone he deems not "right" on the property, he alerts me and stands firm until I indicate to him that the person is "ok" to be there. Louie is 2 points away from his AKC championship. I am trying to get into sheep herding, but up here there is a very long waiting list to get time.


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