# e -collars



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

Any thoughts on e-collars? I've always used prong collars in the past and found them to work very well. My dog has a short coat that is more on the thin side especially around his neck. The problem is that the prong collar is actually irritating the skin on his neck, so I was thinking of changing to an e- collar. Can anyone give me any advice on what type of e-collar to use or any other training collar that I can use on my 1 year old German Shepherd.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

They are like every other training tool, they can work well or be a mess. The difference with the e-collar that I've experienced is with my friends who think it's a quick fix, refuse to read and follow the directions to use it to train, and instead just PUNISH the dog with the collar.

Ending up with a very confused dog that may end up fearful and irratic with the collar. As well as completely 'collar smart' and 100% dis-obedient when the collar is off.

So I first GO TO DOG CLASSES with my dog to do regular training with a professional. The group classes are best for me with the build in distractions and socialization opportunities. Most of the time we don't even need to spend the hundreds of extra dollars to purchase an e-collar cause they (and by they I mean me  ) learn to listen to us and obey with the traditional collars/leashes.

IF you then need to go to the e-collar, I'd still only do it with the help of a great trainer who's going to teach it as a trainer (start on the lowest settings to tweak as you train) and not those who say 'bad dog - ZAP EM til they stop'.

You really can seriously mess up the relationship with your dog if you mistakenly use the collar improperly.


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

I appreciate your input. I've heard that about e-collars before, that's why I'm questioning whether it would be a good idea or not to use one. I'm sure like anything else if it's used properly it could be a good tool and if not used properly it can cause more problems. I've titled several dogs prior to him in AKC obedience. He has attended group obedience classes and he's had private lessons as well. His problem is that without the prong collar he's a wildman. It's funny how they know when that collar is on and when it's not. I can't continue using the prong collar because it's too irritating to his skin so I'm looking for another solution.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would question how you are using the prong if yourdogs skin is getting irritated.that should not be happening.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

tsb said:


> I appreciate your input. I've heard that about e-collars before, that's why I'm questioning whether it would be a good idea or not to use one. I'm sure like anything else if it's used properly it could be a good tool and if not used properly it can cause more problems. I've titled several dogs prior to him in AKC obedience. He has attended group obedience classes and he's had private lessons as well. His problem is that without the prong collar he's a wildman. It's funny how they know when that collar is on and when it's not. I can't continue using the prong collar because it's too irritating to his skin so I'm looking for another solution.


In my experience, there is a big difference between trainers and classes, plus my needs as I progress with each dog.

You may not so much need a new collar as a new club/class/trainer to refine what's going on and fit your needs with this dog at this time.


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm using it correctly, I,m not a novice. My dog actually has a patch of hair missing on the bottom of his neck that never grew in. I adopted him a few months ago his coat is much thinner then any of my other shepherds that I've owned. I had my vet check him out and she said that he just has a thin coat and that's just genetics.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Thin coat or not, your prong should not be irritating his neck. I've had them on my greyhounds, who have no fur and paper thin skin, with no irritation, and none of my doberman friends see any irritation on their dogs, and I've never seen an irritation on any dog where it's used properly. Are you leaving this on your dog for more than just training?


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

This is for Elaine,
Wow! I can't believe how judgemental you are. Acutally you couldn't be more wrong. I only used that collar when he was in class and for training sessions at home. When at home his sessions would last anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes twice a day. When I was using it for training, which was 3 weeks ago, I haven't since due to his skin irritation. That collar would come right off after training. I would never keep a prong collar on my dog, just for the fact that it's dangerous. Not to mention the fact that I train using positive reinforcement with food not by popping the collar. Don't be so judgemental without knowing your facts, you are jumping to conclusions. This is why people like me think twice before writing into a forum for advice because of ignorant people like you!


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

tsb said:


> This is for Elaine,
> Wow! I can't believe how judgemental you are. Acutally you couldn't be more wrong. I only used that collar when he was in class and for training sessions at home. When at home his sessions would last anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes twice a day. When I was using it for training, which was 3 weeks ago, I haven't since due to his skin irritation. That collar would come right off after training. I would never keep a prong collar on my dog, just for the fact that it's dangerous. Not to mention the fact that I train using positive reinforcement with food not by popping the collar. Don't be so judgemental without knowing your facts, you are jumping to conclusions. This is why people like me think twice before writing into a forum for advice because of ignorant people like you!


Aw don't take her 'judgement' so harshly. She is looking out for you and your pups best interest. She is an experienced owner and has brilliant advice. 

I'm not taking sides, but if you look at her posts she is always succinct...No fluff just tough 

Keep posting. Don't let one person stop you.

My experience with an ecollar hasn't been a positive one. I was inexperienced and under versed on how to use one and I felt I damaged my GSD. We are slowly recovering and reversing the problems...


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm not sure how well an e-collar works for simple obedience. What exactly are you trying to teach the dog? Right now to me it sounds like you have a very driven dog that you are trying kill some of the drive. For someone that uses positive training methods it shouldn't matter what kind of a collar you have on the dog...most positive training places in my area won't even allow a prong collar.

The reason people jump to conclusions is that you don't write out the whole situation and then we have to infer. Like you stated...they know when its on or off, so your dog will likely do the same with or without the e-collar. It sounds to me that you want to shock the drive out of your dog...which isn't what they're meant to do.

Does your dog go after other dogs in class? Does he completely lose his mind when he's around another dog? What exactly are the issues you're having with your dog. If these are them then an ecollar won't help...it will actually ramp him up more since he won't understand where the correction is coming for and what its for.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Koda don't have skin issues with the prong. However, when I leave his e collar on for more than 48 hours, his skin is irritated where the 2 prongs are (I have tritronics G3).

We barely use the e collar, we use the prong more and he also responds to it better than the e collar.


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining myself well, what I'm trying to teach my dog is to be a well behaved and a stable minded dog. I would like to compete with him in obedience and tracking. I'm not trying to shock the drive out of him, the drive is a good thing as long as it's directed in a positive way. Fortunately, there are trainers in my area that do believe in positive reinforcement with the combination of prong collars, but the prong collar isn't an option for me because of my dogs situation.

You have to remember that I've only owned the dog for a few months, I didn't raise him when he was a very young pup. He lacks socialization and confidence and this is something that we are continually working on. 

He can be dog aggressive with dominate dogs he doesn't like eye contact with people or dogs. It takes him a while to warm up to people , he's a typical shepherd he's very suspicious of strangers. I'm taking things slow with him but on the other hand I need to address his issues sooner than later.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't believe an ecollar will help you. And while I do have a strong negative bias towards them I have absolutely no problems with a prong. I completely understand that you can't control your dog without one...my GF still walks my dog with a prong because if he sees one of his friends he really wants to say hello.

I think you need to look into LAT and those types of training techniques. An ecollar can be used with those but not without the help of a person that knows what they're doing. You should really work on avoiding eye contact at all costs...you know what sets him off so don't allow it to happen. Always be mindful of your dog and what he's looking at and what's looking at him. Typical shepherds are not very suspicious of strangers...they are aloof. They don't care about strangers unless they pose a threat. Your dog shouldn't think that everyone new is a danger.

I think you just need to slow down and take things extremely slow. I know its probably difficult as you probably have goals in mind when it comes to trialing, but because you didn't raise this dog from day one, you don't really know his genetic history (I'm guessing), you need to figure him out before pushing him to trial.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Read this - Home


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks so much for understanding. I'm not sure what you mean by LAT training techniques, but it's something I'll definitely look into. I've used prong collars with all my other shepherds and loved them, I have never had an issue with them before. I guess every dog is different.

Unfortunately I have no way of getting my dogs papers all I know is that he did come from a breeder but the owner wouldn't give the name of the kennel or any other information except that he comes from working lines. Our guess is either Czech or West German working lines. We say that because of his appearance and temperament. I've had him evaluated by several reputable trainers with experience with working line German Shepherds and that's what they're all saying, but no one could no for sure. 

Thank you, I do appreciate everyone's positive advice and expertise.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Have you tried the little plastic covers they have for the ends of the prongs? They might make the prong collar less irritating to his skin.


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

No, I haven't tried the plastic tips that's a great idea. I'll try that and see how it goes.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

tsb - Hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna tag along this thread & hopefully learn thru your questions & the feedback you get.

I TOTALLY understand the prong collar irritation. Ziva has hers on about 15 minutes (around the block). By week's end, her neck is irritated. Because she tugs & pulls. Oh I know, do the turn-around dance to get her back on track...blah blah blah. But by then, she's already poked her own neck. So even WITH the human doing the ballet dance - end result = irritated neck. And I can't control her without it. GL - because she's a tugger - scraped the bridge of her nose.

I hope your questions doesn't spark the usual pro vs anti ecollar debates. It would be more useful, IMO, to receive some honest feedback.  Because that will help others, as well.


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

It's so nice to hear from someone else who's experienced the same problem with their dog. I didn't mean to stir any controversy I was just looking for some legitimate options to training collars besides prong collars. The only other collars that I know of are; prong, e-collar and choke collars. Then of course you have the harness and head halters and buckle collars which do nothing for training in my opinion. I was looking for some advice that 's all. Thanks again!


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I wonder if your dogs are allergic to chrome? Have you tried stainless steeL?


----------



## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I have a dog that doesn't like eye contact from other dogs. I've been working with him for 2.5 years on it, and he's finally at the point where it doesn't bother him anymore. But I have had him since he was a puppy. I don't know if that matters. I know two years is a long time, and it really depends on the dog. Same lack of confidence, also. 

I actually bring him into an environment with a lot of dogs on a regular basis, but where we still have space around us. I keep an eye out for dogs with eye, like Border Collies and Aussies. And Pit Bull types seem to be very starey dogs, also. When I see a dog that will cause the problem, I turn into my dog so we point the other direction. 

At first, this was really hard because once my dog got a look at the other dog, he really resisted looking away. I am using a wide nylon martingale collar, and my dog is the right height,that if I need to, I can hold the slack end of the martingale like a handle to manuver his head. 

When he was about a year old I was using a collar like this. 
Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar™
And fitted it snuggly, so if he decided to lunge, he would self correct. That was during some obedience classes, but mostly I just use the martingale.

Even though my dog is now good with eye contact. If another dog comes right up to him, he will growl, but he doesn't lunge/snap anymore. I should do more obedience work with him, but I don't think I'll ever trust him in the ring with other dogs for the long stay exercizes. 

Maybe the "dominant dog collar", also called a clip on nylon choke collar, could work for you.

Even if it takes a long time, I'd like you to come back an let us know about your progress. I would love to get obedience titles on my dog, but if another dog walked over to him, I'm afraid there would be a fight. Maybe mine will mellow with age, but I don't think I'm ever going to take the chance. We are doing Rally Obedience, though, because there are no other dogs in the ring,and I have great attention from him.


----------



## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

I am interested in getting one, but for now I am using the prong. My wife has nearly demanded a shock collar, because the dog is too strong for her and completely disobedient. I am the only one who has been able to train her because I was the only one with the physical strength necessary to teach her the right thing. But it would help immensely if the wife could contribute to the training. We have not tried the wife using the prong yet.

I have read mostly negative reviews about most of the cheaper eCollar brands. I definitely don't want one that is too weak, because that will just tick her off. If I get one I'd want one that is guaranteed to give her a sufficient jolt so that she has a sufficient correction to change behavior. 

Personally I think the dogs that get confused or aggressive have been fitted with a cheap collar.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Contact Lou Castle who is a member of this board to learn the correct way to use an e-collar. It works best as a way to guide or direct the dog and not as a means of punishment. If used incorrectly you may create more problems than you fix. 

I own two. Both are Dogtra. I love my old 1200 NC (bought in 2001 from Lou). Never given me any issues and is still working. I also have a 2300 NCP. I have had a few issues with variable stim on this collar at the very low levels I use, but overall am very happy with the collar. It charges very quickly, holds a charge forever, is smaller than my old collar and it is much easier to view what level stim I am using. Both collars were in the $300 range and are waterproof with a large range. Something you do have to watch is if the collar remains on the dog for long periods of time they will also irritate the skin. I was told that the brass contacts do not cause this issues as badly as the ones that come with the collar. Anyhow, if your dog is sensitive to the pinch then you may find it has just as many issues if not more with the E contacts. 

Someone mentioned an allergy. I actually wondered about that too since some of the prong collars are made with very cheap metals.


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> I am interested in getting one, but for now I am using the prong. My wife has nearly demanded a shock collar, because the dog is too strong for her and completely disobedient. I am the only one who has been able to train her because I was the only one with the physical strength necessary to teach her the right thing. But it would help immensely if the wife could contribute to the training. We have not tried the wife using the prong yet.
> *Try positive training methods instead of brute force. If brute force is needed due to dog aggression, then the dog is being taken over it's threshold. *
> I have read mostly negative reviews about most of the cheaper eCollar brands. I definitely don't want one that is too weak, because that will just tick her off. If I get one I'd want one that is guaranteed to give her a sufficient jolt so that she has a sufficient correction to change behavior.
> *You REALLY need to get with a REPUTABLE E-collar trainer before putting this on your dog. This part of your post tells me you're planning to use the E-collar incorrectly and for the wrong reasons. The point isn't to get the biggest jolt you can. It sounds like you're in over your head with this dog.*
> ...


I just want to add that Lou Castle's "method" of e-collar use being the "correct way" is an opinion. Do some serious looking around.
....


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Koda don't have skin issues with the prong. *However, when I leave his e collar on for more than 48 hours*, his skin is irritated where the 2 prongs are (I have tritronics G3).
> 
> We barely use the e collar, we use the prong more and he also responds to it better than the e collar.


Why would you leave an e-collar on for that length of time??? Or was this a typo?


----------



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I would definitely check to see if it's a metal allergy, and try the caps to avoid the high price and learning of an e-collar. I've thought of using an E-collar on my pit bull numerous times, but refrain and use the caps on the prong now instead, so that his neck doesn't get ripped open more than it already is. 



Elaine said:


> Thin coat or not, your prong should not be irritating his neck. I've had them on my greyhounds, who have no fur and paper thin skin, with no irritation, and none of my doberman friends see any irritation on their dogs, and I've never seen an irritation on any dog where it's used properly. Are you leaving this on your dog for more than just training?


My Pit Bull has no fur around his neck and the prong collar breaks his skin very easily if he puts any pressure on it... so I definitely don't agree that a prong won't irritate a dog's neck. Jeeze.



Zeeva said:


> She is an experienced owner and has brilliant advice.


That is ALL a matter of opinion. 



onyx'girl said:


> Why would you leave an e-collar on for that length of time??? Or was this a typo?


Definitely wondering this myself.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I know that there are plenty of you that have headstrong dogs...but many of us have also dealt with headstrong dogs. I've noticed recently...with a huge ramp up in positive only training...I've been able to take my dog off the prong and onto the choke. I've always used a choke for trials but I generally trained with a prong because the corrections are quicker and more effective in my opinion but that week off the prong preparing for a trial was really tough on both myself and my dog. Now, with more positive techniques, and using rewards that he loves (tug toy) I pretty much don't use a prong and can redirect him without the need for a physical correction.

To get to this point took two years...mostly for me to learn the way to get through to him, but in my opinion an ecollar for regular obedience is taking an unnecessary short cut. The "shock to control" your dog is an effort to kill drive. It's not to correct an unwanted behavior. Read up on Lou Castle, he knows what he's doing and although I would definitely go much harder on the obedience training before I would go to an ecollar, some people don't have the patience.

I have a pretty driven working line...I've seen some working lines with even more drive than mine...but all these dogs were trained with conventional methods.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Mart - by "conventional" - do you mean treat-based training? Or the "old conventional", which was a choke collar & lead & lots of praise?


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> Mart - by "conventional" - do you mean treat-based training? Or the "old conventional", which was a choke collar & lead & lots of praise?


I'm talking either all positive or also corrective as well...especially if you're talking AKC obedience...at no point in any of those exercises is your dog too far away from you to correct with a leash and collar. If you're moving onto exercises that your dog is away from you and not doing them properly you haven't taught them correctly leading up to that point.

I don't see a need for an ecollar to train any of the basic commands...heel, sit, down, stay, come, front, ect.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

tsb said:


> Any thoughts on e-collars? I've always used prong collars in the past and found them to work very well. My dog has a short coat that is more on the thin side especially around his neck. The problem is that the prong collar is actually irritating the skin on his neck, so I was thinking of changing to an e- collar. Can anyone give me any advice on what type of e-collar to use or any other training collar that I can use on my 1 year old German Shepherd.


There are two major brands, Tri-Tronics and Dogtra. I prefer the latter because they have a very large number of settings that lets you tailor the stim to the precise level that the dog needs. 

The comments in some exchanges with others suggest an allergy to the metal that the pinch collar is made of. Since it sits against the skin, rather than a choke chain, which generally sits on top of the fur, it may be at the root of your problem. If so, you may encounter the same issue with the Ecollar, since its contact points also must rest directly on the dog's skin. If that occurs then take a look at a device called an SCG, surface contact grid. Those sit on top of the dog's fur and create an "energy field" that the dog can feel. They completely replace the contact points.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Zeeva said:


> My experience with an ecollar hasn't been a positive one. I was inexperienced and under versed on how to use one and I felt I damaged my GSD. We are slowly recovering and reversing the problems...


The best way to cure a problem that poor Ecollar use has caused, is with the Ecollar. It's beyond a discussion here so PM if you want more info. I'll send you my phone number and we can discuss it there.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

martemchik said:


> I'm not sure how well an e-collar works for simple obedience.


They work exceptionally well! 



martemchik said:


> Like you stated...they know when its on or off, so your dog will likely do the same with or without the e-collar.


Whether this occurs with a pinch collar, an Ecollar or treats, it's a training flaw. It's not necessarily the case and there are ways to wean the dog off the collar so that they perform just as well when it's on as when it's not. It's also easy to desensitize the dog so that they perform the same when it's on and when it's not. 



martemchik said:


> It sounds to me that you want to shock the drive out of your dog...which isn't what they're meant to do.


I didn't get that from the OP's messages. 



martemchik said:


> Does your dog go after other dogs in class? Does he completely lose his mind when he's around another dog? What exactly are the issues you're having with your dog. If these are them then an ecollar won't help...it will actually ramp him up more since he won't understand where the correction is coming for and what its for.


If the training is properly done, then he will know what it's for and will associate the stim with his behavior and not with the handler.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Koda don't have skin issues with the prong. However, when I leave his e collar on for more than 48 hours, his skin is irritated where the 2 prongs are (I have tritronics G3).
> 
> We barely use the e collar, we use the prong more and he also responds to it better than the e collar.


I'd suggest that you never leave the Ecollar on for this long. At some point, you're sleeping and there's no need for it to be on him. I suggest that a dog wear the Ecollar for no longer than 10 hours at a time. If you persist in this, sooner or later he'll develop open sores where the contact points sit, and they'll probably become infected.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

martemchik said:


> I don't believe an ecollar will help you.


I have a quite different opinion. The Ecollar will help with the basic OB and I've developed a protocol that has been quite successful in stopping aggression towards and attention towards other dogs. 



martemchik said:


> And while I do have a strong negative bias towards them


Usually people with such a bias have little knowledge or experience with the tool and don't know the many varied ways that they can be used. 



martemchik said:


> You should really work on avoiding eye contact at all costs...you know what sets him off so don't allow it to happen.


That's the start of my protocol to stop dog to dog aggression with the Ecollar. Basically it teaches the dog to turn his head away from dogs that he wants to be aggressive towards.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

FlyAway said:


> When he was about a year old I was using a collar like this.
> Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar™
> And fitted it snuggly, so if he decided to lunge, he would self correct. That was during some obedience classes, but mostly I just use the martingale.


I think that this is great marketing but these collars don't do anything that a choke chain can't do. To take up the slack in the choke chain just insert a "split ring" (key ring type) through the appropriate link, so that the collar is held snugly against the dog's neck. You still attach the leash to the ring at the end of the collar.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jrnabors said:


> I am interested in getting one, but for now I am using the prong. My wife has nearly demanded a shock collar, because the dog is too strong for her and completely disobedient.


I was just contacted by someone who has a 220 lb giant breed and she is only 120lbs. She can't stop the dog, even with a pinch collar. 



Jrnabors said:


> I am the only one who has been able to train her because I was the only one with the physical strength necessary to teach her the right thing. But it would help immensely if the wife could contribute to the training. We have not tried the wife using the prong yet.


Try the pinch collar. If it works, you'll save some $$$$ and these days, that's a good thing. 



Jrnabors said:


> I have read mostly negative reviews about most of the cheaper eCollar brands. I definitely don't want one that is too weak, because that will just tick her off. If I get one I'd want one that is guaranteed to give her a sufficient jolt so that she has a sufficient correction to change behavior.


This is definitely an area where you get what you pay for. I've seen some with extraordinary features on Ebay for only $40. A few people who have tried them have told me that they're unreliable junk! They worked for a few days, perhaps a week and then become unreliable. 

It's not necessary to _"give her a sufficient jolt"_ for training to occur. My website has already been suggested but I'll do it again. Click here Home for instructions on how to use the Ecollar for teaching basic OB and the aggression protocol. 



Jrnabors said:


> Personally I think the dogs that get confused or aggressive have been fitted with a cheap collar.


That can easily happen with unreliable systems.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The following message was originally written by Jrnabors. Jag's comments are in bold. My responses to Jag are in blue. I've preceded each paragraph with the author's initials, to help make it clear who wrote what. 



> Jrn: I am interested in getting one, but for now I am using the prong. My wife has nearly demanded a shock collar, because the dog is too strong for her and completely disobedient. I am the only one who has been able to train her because I was the only one with the physical strength necessary to teach her the right thing. But it would help immensely if the wife could contribute to the training. We have not tried the wife using the prong yet.
> 
> * Jag: Try positive training methods instead of brute force. If brute force is needed due to dog aggression, then the dog is being taken over it's threshold. *
> 
> ...


_ 



Jag said:



I just want to add that Lou Castle's "method" of e-collar use being the "correct way" is an opinion. Do some serious looking around.
....

Click to expand...

LOL. I agree that it's "an opinion." It's one that I happen to share AND most of such opinions are held by people who have actually used my methods._


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

martemchik said:


> I don't see a need for an ecollar to train any of the basic commands...heel, sit, down, stay, come, front, ect.


No one _"NEEDS"_ an Ecollar for this work. We trained dogs for thousands of years before they came along. But they're here now and I use them for most of my work for basic OB. It goes very quickly and is quite easy on the dogs.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

e-collar training isn't a quick fix. You need to do a proper foundation to introduce it and the dog needs to understand the exercises(as well as the handler).

I've been training my dog on one(dogtra 2300 NCP) for several weeks and we are going slow and introducing certain exercises individually. I personally think it is a great tool and I learn so much about my dog while we are going thru this training. I am working with a trainer, not doing it alone, FWIW....


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lou...I put the fact that I have a negative opinion of the collar so that the OP knew how I felt and took my bias into consideration when making a decision. Maybe you should put that you have a positive bias towards them because they make you money and you make a living off the fact that people use ecollars instead of trying other techniques. I know all the ways it can be used...I've read your methods and I believe they work very well. I haven't seen any reason from the OP to absolutely have to use your methods. I think that OP can achieve their goals with other methods. So next time you decide to call someone out for being inexperienced or not knowledgeable please take some time to see your own biases as well. I hope that I never have to gain first hand experience with an ecollar...I don't know how to say what I want to say about people that use ecollars without being rude/mean to you so I won't say it.

The little lady with the 220 lb dog...her problem. She got a dog, she knew what she was getting into, and her only choice is now ecollar? Sorry...if your only way to control your choice of dog is with modern technology, you should've thought about making a different choice. I see plenty of 60, 70, 80 year old women handling GSDs just fine at my club without the use of ecollars. My dog is more powerful than my girlfriend...we see absolutely no need for an ecollar. It's great that you push for obedience with the ecollar but I believe that for 99% of dogs there is no need to use this tool. If it has been taught for ages without them, and is still taught without them, I don't see why anyone would go to this tool without trying the other methods.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Lou...I put the fact that I have a negative opinion of the collar so that the OP knew how I felt


Really not necessary. We could tell that from what you wrote. 



martemchik said:


> and took my bias into consideration when making a decision. Maybe you should put that you have a positive bias towards them because they make you money and you make a living off the fact that people use ecollars instead of trying other techniques.


Why do people go to personal attacks like this? Why can't we simply have an honest, rational and professional discussion where we each give our opinions and let the OP decide? 

To put the lie to your "imagined" facts ... Ecollars don't _"make [me] money."_ They cost me money. I've made a profit from their sales in only the last few years that I've been selling them. I supported them and took part in these discussions for years before I became a dealer. My tax returns since I've been an Ecollar dealer show a net loss. And that's not even counting the time that I spend in these threads or on the phone helping people with them. If I counted my time, even at minimum wage, I'd be out thousands of dollars! 

I make a living from my pension after 30 years of being a police officer, doing training, seminars and consulting, not from the sales of Ecollars. My discounts on them are so deep that I sometimes lose money on their sales. I became a dealer to get them into the hands of people as inexpensively as possible. 

Contrary to your statement, _"... you make a living off the fact that people use ecollars instead of trying other techniques,"_ MOST people who come to the Ecollar have ALREADY tried other methods. I don't think that I've EVER come across anyone in these discussions who went to the Ecollar before other methods failed for them. 



martemchik said:


> I know all the ways it can be used...


Based on your comments, I'd say that this is NOT the case. And we'll see later, that I'm right. 



martemchik said:


> I've read your methods and I believe they work very well.


Better to ask the opinions of those who have used my methods. One poster had supplied a link to my website before I even found this thread. I recently received a PM from a member here who told me that she never would have thought that she'd ever use an Ecollar on her dog. Then she started reading my posts and lo and behold, she's now an Ecollar user! 



martemchik said:


> I haven't seen any reason from the OP to absolutely have to use your methods.


I just wrote in my last post, _"No one 'NEEDS' an Ecollar for this work."_ So it's obvious that I agree with this statement. But the OP has tried another tool, and now is having problems with irritation on her dog's neck, so she asked about the Ecollar. 



martemchik said:


> I think that OP can achieve their goals with other methods.


Perhaps. But the OP asked specifically about Ecollars. And so far, you've not given a single reason why the Ecollar should NOT be used other than the fact that you have some vague bias against them. 



martemchik said:


> So next time you decide to call someone out for being inexperienced or not knowledgeable


I have yet to see any evidence that you are either experienced or knowledgeable about Ecollars. Merely stating that you think that you are, does not make it so. Especially when you write such things as you did, that you're _"not sure how well an e-collar works for simple obedience."_ Someone who was knowledgeable about Ecollars would know that they work very well for simple OB. You accused the OP of trying to _"kill some of the [dog's] drive."_ Actually you can't _"kill drive."_ You can suppress it, but it's still there, waiting to come out again. Someone who was knowledgeable about Ecollars would know this. You also wrote this, _"... they know when its on or off, so your dog will likely do the same with or without the e-collar."_ Ignoring the fact that it's no more difficult to wean a dog off an Ecollar than it is to wean them off a pinch collar or treats. It's simply a part of training for those who want to do it. You told the OP that an Ecollar would not help if her issues were _"los[ing] his mind ... around another dog."_ or if he _"went after other dogs in class."_ Fact is, the Ecollar is a great tool for working on these issues. Someone who was knowledgeable about Ecollars would know that. 

It was your opinion in another post that the Ecollar would not help the OP. I've been using Ecollars for well over 20 years and think that the Ecollar is a great way for the OP to go! In fact your advice was to _"slow down and take things extremely slow."_ That advice has virtually no meaning in this context. 



martemchik said:


> please take some time to see your own biases as well.


It would be obvious, even to a barely literate child, that I have a bias in favor of the Ecollar for many issues if they read my posts, even just the ones in this thread. I really don't think that a declaration of that nature is necessary. I've never kept it a secret that I sell Ecollars or that I do seminars on them (among MANY other topics). So my biases are well exposed and well known. 



martemchik said:


> I hope that I never have to gain first hand experience with an ecollar...


So you claim that you _"know all the ways [that an Ecollar] can be used"_ BUT YOU'VE NEVER ACTUALLY USED ONE YOURSELF! I know how to drive the space shuttle, but I've never actually done it myself. No worries NASA, I can handle this! Too bad they're out of service now, I coulda shown those dumb ol' astronauts a thing or two. ROFL. 



martemchik said:


> I don't know how to say what I want to say about people that use ecollars without being rude/mean to you so I won't say it.


I think that you've been plenty rude already. A shame really, this thread was going along so well. 



martemchik said:


> The little lady with the 220 lb dog...her problem. She got a dog, she knew what she was getting into, and her only choice is now ecollar?


In addition to your other talents ... it seems that you also like to try to put words into the mouths of others. When did anyone say that the Ecollar was _"her only choice?"_ Actually she's quite an accomplished trainer, having put advanced titles on several other dogs. She too, just like the OP, asked about the Ecollar since the methods she has used on her other dogs, wasn't working on this one. 



martemchik said:


> Sorry...if your only way to control your choice of dog is with modern technology, you should've thought about making a different choice.


AGAIN, when did anyone say that it was the _"only way to control [her] choice of dogs."_ And just what is wrong with using _"modern technology."_ You're not typing this on a manual typewriter, you're using some of that _"modern technology"_ yourself, arentcha? 



martemchik said:


> I see plenty of 60, 70, 80 year old women handling GSDs just fine at my club without the use of ecollars.


Do you often compare apples and oranges? When was the last time that you saw a 220 lb GSD? 



martemchik said:


> My dog is more powerful than my girlfriend...we see absolutely no need for an ecollar.


That's great. Then don't use one. But you might consider the fact that not everyone has your dog. 



martemchik said:


> It's great that you push for obedience with the ecollar but I believe that for 99% of dogs there is no need to use this tool.


AGAIN, there's NEVER a _"NEED"_ for an Ecollar. As someone (Gee, who could that be?) recently wrote, _"We trained dogs for thousands of years before they came along."_ But they're here now and they make training fast and easy for both owners and dogs. If you don't want to use one, that's fine with me. But the OP was asking about them and so I responded. 



martemchik said:


> If it has been taught for ages without them, and is still taught without them, I don't see why anyone would go to this tool without trying the other methods.


I suggest that you reread the OP's OP and discover why she asked about Ecollars. I didn't bring up the topic of Ecollars the OP did! I rarely bother with other methods these days because I know that the Ecollar will work and that it will work quickly. But I've used just about every tool and method that exists in dog training today, and still use them, when they're appropriate. In this thread we've had a poster who has spent _"2.5 years"_ working so that her dog is not bothered by the eye contact from other dogs. I spend a couple of hours spread out over a week or so, and fix this issue.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think that preference for one tool over another is perfectly rational and acceptable....I think that bias towards a tool is ignorance and shortsighted....jmo!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Here's an example of the bias and hypocrisy against ecollars I often encounter......typical detractor will say that the dog becomes collar wise and once you remove the collar the dog doesn't comply as we'll....haha....they are telling me this as they handle their dog with a pinch collar.....Duh! I have seen so many cases of people taking off the pinch collar AND the dog stopped complying! Same principle....same result.....flawed use with both in terms of training for endgame. And I don't use an ecollars, though I have used it for specific things. BUT I have seen it used in all aspects of training a dog very effectively.....I have seen it misused also. Frankly, I have seen pinch collars do more psychological damage in inept handler hands than ecollars.


----------



## Rocky's mum (Apr 12, 2012)

I am inexperienced and unbiased. I have not used e-collar, but do own a pinch (under supervision from trainer). I do find that Lou's comments are very constructive and well explained for all to understand. It is up to the individual to choose their tool of choice.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Rocky's mum said:


> I am inexperienced and unbiased. I have not used e-collar, but do own a pinch (under supervision from trainer). I do find that Lou's comments are very constructive and well explained for all to understand. It is up to the individual to choose their tool of choice.


 :thumbup: Exactly.
The OP had questions about an ecollar. Which, of course, always brings out the pro-collar vs the anti-collar arguments. Then come the personal insults. Notice the OP hasn't come back? Probably because we can seldom discuss things like adults - it always turns to a tug-of-war of beliefs & opinions. :crazy:


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

*e-collar*

As a new member to this forum, I am so disappointed with so many of you and so pleased with some of you on how you reacted to such a simple question. I'm amazed on how some people act like children rather than grown adults. Obviously, the ability to communicate in a civil and respectful manner is not a strong point for many of you. Not only was I insulted by your comments and accusations that were made, I was also insulted by your ignorance of assuming that I had no knowledge of German Shepherds or dog training at all. You arrived at your conclusions without asking me the right questions in a respectful way. Instead you assumed that I was completely ignorant and didn't have a clue as to what I was doing. You have no idea what my background is with dogs or in my personal life, so with that said stop and think before you speak or write. Some of you put words in my mouth and misconstrued what I had said. If you read my original post it stated that I wanted advice on e-collars or any other training collar. It's funny! everyone totally skipped over the part that stated (or any other training collar). Evidently, people read what they wanted to.

I can't believe the bickering that's gone on with this thread. Instead of just addressing the question, some of you are debating whether who's right and who's wrong. For some of you a little bit of knowledge with no experience can be a dangerous thing. I believe in keeping an open mind, there are many ways to accomplish the same goal and everyone has the right to their own opinion and to make their own choices. What works for one person or for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another and every circumstance is different. 

Unfortunately some of you make us new members feel very unwelcomed here and that's ashame. This forum could be wonderful, we all can learn from each other if some of you would just put your ego's aside, so many of you think way too much of yourselves. For those of you who had kind and helpful words to say, Thank you! I really appreciated your support it meant a lot to me. Will I continue writing into this forum who knows, I'm not sure it's worth the aggravation.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

tsb said:


> Some of you put words in my mouth and misconstrued what I had said.


Sad to say, this happens. Sometimes it even seems intentional, but you know some people *do* love drama, no matter how ridiculous. Think of those posts as the National Enquirer of these forums and you'll learn to either laugh at them or ignore them completely. There's so much more going on than just the bickering - and I for one would like you to continue to post because you obviously have alot to offer.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I really didn't see anyone putting words in your mouth in this thread. Elaine just asked a question. She's pretty abrupt at times but she was only asking a question and didn't infer any judgement in her post. Many newbies come here and need to have the most basic advice. People can only address the information that you put out there and that was what was done in this thread. If you are going to be on a forum, you need to have a thick skin and not take things personally. That's just the way of life in these days of online communication.


----------



## tsb (Jul 26, 2012)

*e-collar*

Well, that's not the way I feel. When martemchik said "it sounds to me that you want to shock the drive out of your dog" that's putting words in my mouth. I never indicated that in anyway. Especially, when I asked for advice on my original post if anyone new of another training collar, not just e-collars. People need to stop making excuses for the poor attitudes of others on this forum. As far as having thick skin on this forum, I think I've proved that I'm not afraid to speak my mind. Some people just don't like to hear the truth. Newbie or not everyone deserves respect!


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Blanketback said:


> Sad to say, this happens. Sometimes it even seems intentional, but you know some people *do* love drama, no matter how ridiculous. Think of those posts as the National Enquirer of these forums and you'll learn to either laugh at them or ignore them completely. There's so much more going on than just the bickering - and *I for one would like you to continue to post because you obviously have alot to offer*.


:thumbup: I agree, but it's too bad this happens - all too frequently, IMO.

Jax - I understand the 'online community' can be abrupt. But I can't agree one should grow a thick skin just to try to participate, acquire knowledge, or gather info.

I've said this before - I think there are some that have inflated views of themselves & it spills over, almost as a wrath, to some posting. Funny, I was going to start a thread about this, as I didn't want to take from the OP. But now that she started it.....

I've been here 2 years - not a 'newbie' (as was pointed out by a member full of self-worth). Mostly lingering. Searching for those with similar problems in an attempt to find solutions. Trying to learn a few things. Learned - the hard way - that there are certain Hot Topics, over which the opinions DO crawl outta the woodwork! But sometimes, people go into Attack Mode (Is that Resource Guarding the forum?! ). There are consistently personal attacks & nasty comments. I don't want/think the mods need to spend their time babysitting. For awhile, a new poster may shrink back if he/she doesn't want darts thrown at them. I lingered a llooong time before posting just because of that. Ask a simple question & wind up with pages & pages of personal attacks. Opinions are like - well, you know - & everyone has one. No need to force it down someone's throat, like it's the only opinion that matters.

I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way - OP has proven that. Thick skin? Perhaps that's what's needed. But it shouldn't be. Even the most skillful individual here puts their pants on like I do - 1 leg at a time. You may be a better dog trainer than me, but that's not a license to be rude or nasty.

End of Sermon. I just think you'd attract more people by being helpful, not by being nasty. There's already forums out there for that & I, for one, thought this one was the better choice. Was I wrong?

P.S. - To the mods 7 a few regulars - I thank you for your input, both here & on my PMs to you. When I'm not being put down or made to look foolish because I have questions, it's helpful to know you guys are here.
P.S.S. To the OP - please keep posting. I'm very interested in your expansive bakground & think you could help MANY of us here.

The End.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> There are consistently personal attacks & nasty comments.


What's really fun is those who exist to pick apart entire posts, line by line, and attack (or "disagree") while attempting to demean the poster. 

And they don't even think it's them we're talking about, I'm sure.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> What's really fun is those who exist to pick apart entire posts, line by line, and attack (or "disagree") while attempting to demean the poster.
> 
> And they don't even think it's them we're talking about, I'm sure.


:groovy: You are absolutely correct on that, msvette! hahahahahahaha


----------



## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> That is ALL a matter of opinion.


Aww I just have said JMO...Sowy.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> If I get one I'd want one that is guaranteed to give her a sufficient jolt so that she has a sufficient correction to change behavior.


*sigh* another example of how people mess their dogs up, usually just prior to getting rid of them, because they were not able to "fix" their issues


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

tsb said:


> Well, that's not the way I feel. When martemchik said "it sounds to me that you want to shock the drive out of your dog" that's putting words in my mouth. I never indicated that in anyway. Especially, when I asked for advice on my original post if anyone new of another training collar, not just e-collars. People need to stop making excuses for the poor attitudes of others on this forum. As far as having thick skin on this forum, I think I've proved that I'm not afraid to speak my mind. Some people just don't like to hear the truth. Newbie or not everyone deserves respect!


I didn't see martemchik's post.

Nor did I say a newbie did not deserve respect. I said they need the most basic advice. Absolutely nothing in my post about anyone not deserving respect.

By thick skin, I meant you (general) need to let some things roll off your back because you can't see a person's expression or hear their tone of voice online. Not telling people off and alienating those that could give you some pretty good advice because you took their question as an insult. I"m not making excuses for anyone. I simply stated an opinion. Read into it what you want.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Well, even if someone's a complete and total jerk, that shouldn't keep you away.
If you have a favorite bar/restaurant/cafe/pub/you-name-it and there's some random fool there, spilling his drink and yelling to get attention, would you all of a sudden stop going there?!? C'mon, the world can get rough - roll with the punches.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This forum does have history of people assuming everyone is a beginner, and assuming people are not capable of receiving the information they request without a negative lecture. I see it all the time and I speak on it, because it offends many newbies. It's amazing how some people can be so "positive" in their training beliefs, and so aversive in their advice and interaction with others. Makes you go....hmmmmmmm!


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

LouCastle said:


> I'd suggest that you never leave the Ecollar on for this long. At some point, you're sleeping and there's no need for it to be on him. I suggest that a dog wear the Ecollar for no longer than 10 hours at a time. If you persist in this, sooner or later he'll develop open sores where the contact points sit, and they'll probably become infected.


I have actually stop using the e collar two weeks after getting it. We stop the behavior we don't want, like Koda chasing my 14 year old cat and nipping him. The other is barking like crazy in the backyard and jumping the fence to get to an animal. 

So no worries here with the e collar, I do occasionally put it on him whenever we go to places , just in case he loses his mind when he sees a opposum or something.


----------



## harmony (May 30, 2002)

tsb said:


> As a new member to this forum, I am so disappointed with so many of you and so pleased with some of you on how you reacted to such a simple question. I'm amazed on how some people act like children rather than grown adults. Obviously, the ability to communicate in a civil and respectful manner is not a strong point for many of you. Not only was I insulted by your comments and accusations that were made, I was also insulted by your ignorance of assuming that I had no knowledge of German Shepherds or dog training at all. You arrived at your conclusions without asking me the right questions in a respectful way. Instead you assumed that I was completely ignorant and didn't have a clue as to what I was doing. You have no idea what my background is with dogs or in my personal life, so with that said stop and think before you speak or write. Some of you put words in my mouth and misconstrued what I had said. If you read my original post it stated that I wanted advice on e-collars or any other training collar. It's funny! everyone totally skipped over the part that stated (or any other training collar). Evidently, people read what they wanted to.
> 
> I can't believe the bickering that's gone on with this thread. Instead of just addressing the question, some of you are debating whether who's right and who's wrong. For some of you a little bit of knowledge with no experience can be a dangerous thing. I believe in keeping an open mind, there are many ways to accomplish the same goal and everyone has the right to their own opinion and to make their own choices. What works for one person or for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another and every circumstance is different.
> 
> Unfortunately some of you make us new members feel very unwelcomed here and that's ashame. This forum could be wonderful, we all can learn from each other if some of you would just put your ego's aside, so many of you think way too much of yourselves. For those of you who had kind and helpful words to say, Thank you! I really appreciated your support it meant a lot to me. Will I continue writing into this forum who knows, I'm not sure it's worth the aggravation.


Well said, and I for one hope you keep coming back. There are children on here to say what ever, my 16yr old daughter loves to look at the pictures on here but has never posted, so I can just imagine what unruly kids say. 

I find with an ecollar you stop or up the unwanted behavior depending on the dog and what they are doing.


----------



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I find it ironic that most people here want to see titles to 'prove' that the puppy they're getting will be 'worthy'. Yet, when it comes to training with a tool like the e-collar, people are willing to take the word of someone with NO "title" or official training. It's not hard to do, either. However, I suppose it's easier to set up a website and argue with anyone who doesn't agree the putting this thing on every and any don't won't solve their issues... no matter what those issues are. When words like "quick" are used to describe training... that's a red flag for me personally. Why are we not demanding more of those we're seeking training advice from than the breeders? It makes no sense to me. E-collar training, IMO, should be done by someone with some certificates of completed training, do a complete evaluation of the dog prior to suggesting this, and be there to walk the person through the training. Maybe if other methods have failed it was because the trainer isn't connecting to the dog or is using the 'failed tools' incorrectly. Whether you agree with the use of e-collars or not, there are other issues here. The "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't agree with me and I'm always right...just check my website" comes across very badly. Whenever Lou steps into a thread, it gets ugly. 
Lastly, there are board rules against using this board to peddle products in this way and using it for free advertising. Both of which I see on every one of these threads. I think our dogs deserve the best.. especially where training comes in. Not all dogs are going to make it to trial. That's just a fact. If that was the only reason for getting this dog, you may have to re-think that. Title seeking can sometimes bring out the worst in people, because they forget about the most important part...the DOG doing the work! JMO.


----------



## WhiteSpirit (Sep 17, 2012)

Well on a more positive light to this question I use an electric leash with my girl. It's called a Dogtra. It has a vibration function that works better than the shock. It distracts the dog from what it is doing so that you can redirect it's behavior without causing pain. Another feature I love about it is both collar and receiver are water proof and rechargeable.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jag said:


> I find it ironic that most people here want to see titles to 'prove' that the puppy they're getting will be 'worthy'. Yet, when it comes to training with a tool like the e-collar, people are willing to take the word of someone with NO "title" or official training. It's not hard to do, either. However, I suppose it's easier to set up a website and argue with anyone who doesn't agree the putting this thing on every and any don't won't solve their issues... no matter what those issues are. When words like "quick" are used to describe training... that's a red flag for me personally. Why are we not demanding more of those we're seeking training advice from than the breeders? It makes no sense to me. E-collar training, IMO, should be done by someone with some certificates of completed training, do a complete evaluation of the dog prior to suggesting this, and be there to walk the person through the training. Maybe if other methods have failed it was because the trainer isn't connecting to the dog or is using the 'failed tools' incorrectly. Whether you agree with the use of e-collars or not, there are other issues here. The "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't agree with me and I'm always right...just check my website" comes across very badly. Whenever Lou steps into a thread, it gets ugly.
> Lastly, there are board rules against using this board to peddle products in this way and using it for free advertising. Both of which I see on every one of these threads. I think our dogs deserve the best.. especially where training comes in. Not all dogs are going to make it to trial. That's just a fact. If that was the only reason for getting this dog, you may have to re-think that. Title seeking can sometimes bring out the worst in people, because they forget about the most important part...the DOG doing the work! JMO.


Thank you


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Jag said:


> I find it ironic that most people here want to see titles to 'prove' that the puppy they're getting will be 'worthy'. Yet, when it comes to training with a tool like the e-collar, people are willing to take the word of someone with NO "title" or official training.


I know what _"titles"_ are. I have no idea what _"official training"_ is. I was a police K−9 handler for about 5 1/2 years and then for the next 15 years was the in-house trainer for my department. Round here most departments hire their vendor to do their maintenance training. We didn't do that until I was injured and could no longer do the training. That occurred after about 20 years of doing it. I've done 58 seminars and workshops in 20 states and three foreign countries. Most of them have been on the Ecollar. 

Was that training _"official"_ enough for you? After chasing real crooks with real guns who had committed real crimes, somehow "sport dog training" never held any interest for me. If you make a mistake on the sport field you lose some points and maybe don't get a title, a ribbon or a trophy. If you make a mistake in LE while hunting criminals, people can die. I leave it to the forum members to evaluate each venue for training. I’m certainly not knocking sport training, it just never interested me. 



Jag said:


> It's not hard to do, either. However, I suppose it's easier to set up a website and argue with anyone who doesn't agree the putting this thing on every and any don't won't solve their issues... no matter what those issues are.


Another attempt to put words into my mouth. NEVER have I said that an Ecollar will _"solve their issues ... no matter what those issues are."_ Since you've made this claim, please show us where I've said such a thing. Interestingly every time someone writes this lie, and I call them on it, they're NEVER able to provide such a statement that I've made. 



Jag said:


> When words like "quick" are used to describe training... that's a red flag for me personally.


Why is "slow" better? If all other things are equal, I see no advantage to training that takes longer. Can you tell us why you think it is? 



Jag said:


> E-collar training, IMO, should be done by someone with some certificates of completed training,


Who do you think is qualified to hand out such certificates? BTW I give them out at the completion of my LE classes. The officers need them for their records. 



Jag said:


> do a complete evaluation of the dog prior to suggesting this


I've never come across anyone who can guarantee why a dog is doing something. At best, it's an educated guess. Since they're just guessing, they might be guessing wrong, and if so, then their solution will be wrong, since it's based on that guess. 



Jag said:


> and be there to walk the person through the training.


I guess that the thousands of books, videos, articles, etc., that people have used to successfully to train their dogs didn't exit. My website has testimonials from several people who have never before trained a dog or used an Ecollar, who found my site, used the articles to train with, and now, are completely satisfied with their results. You're welcome to your opinion but the facts show that your requirements are just not necessary. 



Jag said:


> Maybe if other methods have failed it was because the trainer isn't connecting to the dog or is using the 'failed tools' incorrectly.


Or perhaps they're just not suitable for the dog or for the behavior that they're trying to train. 



Jag said:


> Whether you agree with the use of e-collars or not, there are other issues here. The "you don't know what you're talking about because you don't agree with me and I'm always right...just check my website" comes across very badly.


ANOTHER straw man argument. Please show us where I've said anything like this. THE TRUTH is that many times in these discussion I've said that I don't have all the answers. I've said that I correct people who introduce me as an expert, and just say that I know "a few things." AGAIN, I invite you to show someplace that I've made the statement that you've just attributed to me. AGAIN, I'd bet that the sound of silence will be deafening. 



Jag said:


> Whenever Lou steps into a thread, it gets ugly.


And finally we get to the rude personal attack. At least one of us is able to stay, polite, courteous and professional. 



Jag said:


> Lastly, there are board rules against using this board to peddle products in this way and using it for free advertising. Both of which I see on every one of these threads.


The proper venue for such comments is by flagging such posts and bringing them to the attention of the moderators, not for you to spout your opinion in a post. I suggest that if you don't like my posts that you use the "ignore" feather that this forum offers, then you won't have to see them. Failing that, get yourself some will power and simply pass them by . So far, I've not had one moderator claim that I'm advertising, just a few people who don't like my posts or my ideas. The only people whose opinion counts on this don't agree with you. In fact, at least one of them used to think that she'd never use an Ecollar, until she started reading my posts and talking to me. Now she's an Ecollar user. 



Jag said:


> I think our dogs deserve the best.. especially where training comes in.


Me too. That's why I use an Ecollar. 



Jag said:


> Not all dogs are going to make it to trial.


I really don't care about trials. I'm more interested in people getting pets that they can comfortably live with. But you'll find that many people who are winning trials are using Ecollars in their work. FEW of them are using only the so−called "kinder gentler methods." You can drop a few names of people who are using them, but many of them are making the claim but "out behind the barn," are using compulsion and some, even Ecollars.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I've read through Lou's website multiple times and use his methods with nothing but positive things to report back. I like Lou's methods because he doesn't use the collar as a punishment. There's nothing negative associated with the collar and his methods. I also used (and still use) tons of positive reinforcement when introducing and working with the collar. If the OP is considering going the e-collar method, I highly recommend they thoroughly read through Lou's techniques before even trying anything.

My current dog is the first one I've ever used an e-collar with and have only used Lou's methods. For me, it's basically just used for a 100% reliable recall because of all the off leash stuff we do. In the years that I've used it, she has never yelped once or shown any avoidance type behavior with any aspect of the e-collar training. It's actually the complete opposite... the second i pick that thing up, she starts to get real excited because she knows it's time for some off leash time. The site of the collar is actually a positive thing for her because that's the way that it was introduced and taught. She's the same great dog she was before even trying on an e-collar. IMHO, there's nothing negative about it - using Lou's methods.

The e-collar is a training tool just like a prong, halti, choke, treats, tugs, whatever. Not every tool is right for every dog and all of these tools can be abused if put in the wrong hands... maybe some more than others. As owners, we need to find what we're comfortable with and what our dogs are comfortable with. The back and forth about who's right and who's wrong is just stupid and pointless because no one's going to win that war.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it's forum, we're online. we can't sit in a virtual circle
singing Kum Ba Ya before we post. people express themselves.
we don't agree on things. it's your way, their way and the
other way. i find most people get upset because people
don't agree with their way and people are very sensitive.
we need some training methods to thicken the skin, erase
sensitivity and stop being insulted over nothing. look
at all of the opinions. use some, don't use them, mix them up, etc. 
i love the snarky comments. have fun with the snarky. snarky is good 
for the soul and the wit. forget about being attacked or insulted. being
attacked or insulted online doesn't hurt. the best training method
to fix being attaked or insulted is don't read the post and that's
a positive method. 



tsb said:


> As a new member to this forum, I am so disappointed with so many of you and so pleased with some of you on how you reacted to such a simple question. I'm amazed on how some people act like children rather than grown adults. Obviously, the ability to communicate in a civil and respectful manner is not a strong point for many of you. Not only was I insulted by your comments and accusations that were made, I was also insulted by your ignorance of assuming that I had no knowledge of German Shepherds or dog training at all. You arrived at your conclusions without asking me the right questions in a respectful way. Instead you assumed that I was completely ignorant and didn't have a clue as to what I was doing. You have no idea what my background is with dogs or in my personal life, so with that said stop and think before you speak or write. Some of you put words in my mouth and misconstrued what I had said. If you read my original post it stated that I wanted advice on e-collars or any other training collar. It's funny! everyone totally skipped over the part that stated (or any other training collar). Evidently, people read what they wanted to.
> 
> I can't believe the bickering that's gone on with this thread. Instead of just addressing the question, some of you are debating whether who's right and who's wrong. For some of you a little bit of knowledge with no experience can be a dangerous thing. I believe in keeping an open mind, there are many ways to accomplish the same goal and everyone has the right to their own opinion and to make their own choices. What works for one person or for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another and every circumstance is different.
> 
> Unfortunately some of you make us new members feel very unwelcomed here and that's ashame. This forum could be wonderful, we all can learn from each other if some of you would just put your ego's aside, so many of you think way too much of yourselves. For those of you who had kind and helpful words to say, Thank you! I really appreciated your support it meant a lot to me. Will I continue writing into this forum who knows, I'm not sure it's worth the aggravation.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> This forum does have history of people assuming everyone is a beginner, and assuming people are not capable of receiving the information they request without a negative lecture. I see it all the time and I speak on it, because it offends many newbies. It's amazing how some people can be so "positive" in their training beliefs, and so aversive in their advice and interaction with others. Makes you go....hmmmmmmm!


I agree, Cliff. And I'm know I'm guilty of it also. And to anyone I've done this to, I sincerely apologize.

I also understand the OP's frustration on not getting an answer to the question. I have it happen to me often when posting a question. Sometimes I have to step back and read a post, asking myself if the person was trying to be a jerk or just asking a question so they could better answer mine. Other times I just ignore the post because its irrelevant to my question and by responding would take the thread completely off track.

I hope the OP does come back and post, with the ability to just let some posts roll of his/her back, because if not, the only blood pressure going up is going to be theirs. At least, IME, I was the only one getting upset before I figured out there was an Ignore button and that I didn't need to respond and defend myself to every online persona out there.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> iwe can't sit in a virtual circle
> singing Kum Ba Ya before we post.


Maybe you just weren't invited?!:wild: ohhhmmmmmmmm....ohhhhhmmmmmm...breathe....


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I don't know Lou and don't use his methods directly for e-collar training...I saw directly because I'm lucky enough to have a trainer who has probably used an e-collar on hundreds of dogs who has her own way of using them, but they no doubt have a lot of the same elements that Lou uses in them.

With that said, I think that coming on here and saying that he is tyring to peddel his product is way off base. What I have seen is give a lot of free advice....offer to speak to people on the phone (for free as far as I can tell)....have a very detailed website that explains his methods (for free). I've never seen him say to buy an e-collar from him, but rather just give advice as to what brands he likes (and everyone has their preference for this). I've never seen him go into a thread asking for general training advice and push e-collars.

The only time I've seen him insert his opinion is one that is specifically asking about using an e-collar. 

I PERSONALLY do not give training advice on using an e-collar over the internet. But if he is OK with doing that (as he's been doing for YEARS successfully) then more power to him.

It just behooves me that people who have never touched an e-collar...or have some horrible experience because they didn't seek out advice on how to properly use them the one time they did use them are so pissed when someone who is well-known as an "authority" on the subject tries to give guidance.

IMO this forum is lucky to have people who actually know what they are doing come here to give training hints. They certainly don't have to...and most people who are very good trainers are not here helping people out like Lou does (and let's me frank here...how many of you are going to give him future business by organizing an e-collar training seminar?!)!!!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

tsb said:


> As a new member to this forum, I am so disappointed with so many of you and so pleased with some of you on how you reacted to such a simple question. ........................
> 
> *Unfortunately some of you make us new members feel very unwelcomed here and that's ashame.* This forum could be wonderful, we all can learn from each other if some of you would just put your ego's aside, so many of you think way too much of yourselves. For those of you who had kind and helpful words to say, Thank you! I really appreciated your support it meant a lot to me. Will I continue writing into this forum who knows, I'm not sure it's worth the aggravation.


It's a shame that you've gotten that out of your experience here. But it's the same (or worse) on many public forums. Personalities and opinions will get into the mix.

BUT you need to wander thru the information you don't feel is helpful and stick to the advice that was. Quite a bit of information was included in this thread and I'm pretty sure some of it was very useful. Just read and use the good stuff and let the other information go.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you stay. Then you can realize that helping others, knowing their background/experience, and giving exactly what each person needs is a bit harder than you may think. :wild:

aw:


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> i love the snarky comments. have fun with the snarky. snarky is good
> for the soul and the wit. forget about being attacked or insulted. being
> attacked or insulted online doesn't hurt. the best training method
> to fix being attaked or insulted is don't read the post and that's
> a positive method.


One problem with the snarky comments is that many people will respond in kind. Pretty soon it's all snark and the original question has been lost in the snark. Sometimes snark is intended to dilute the flow of information in a thread where the discussion is about a tool or method that the snarker doesn't like. By starting a snark war, the information, even though it continues to flow, gets lost in the snark. Many people who are looking for the information won't read through the snark to get to it. 

Sometimes the snark is lies. Sometimes the snark is a diversion when someone has been caught either in a ... let's be polite and call it an error, rather than a lie, and they don't want the members to see how badly they've been exposed. Sometimes the snark is directed at someone's experience or what they've accomplished, as if only the snarker's experience or accomplishments have value. 

It's impossible to know if a post is on topic or if it's just snark without reading it and then it's too late to ignore it. Reputations can be broken with certain kinds of snark. 

USUALLY snark comes from members who are not clearly identified or not identified at all. They hide behind the anonymity that a pseudonym provides and snark away at those of us who stand up and represent ourselves. As another poster has recognized, most of the snark would not go on if we were face to face. Sometimes this a matter of just good manners. Sometimes this a matter of getting more information transferred by voice inflection and body language. Sometimes this is a matter of getting punched in the face.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> I've read through Lou's website multiple times and use his methods with *nothing but positive things to report back. *


I find it fascinating that people who have ACTUALLY done as LD has done, used the articles on my site to train their dogs, have nothing but praise for the articles and the idea that one can learn to train a dog by reading them. At the same time, those who oppose the Ecollar keep telling us that this can't be done. You must have someone _"evaluate"_ the dog before training can even begin! And then the trainer must be right there at your elbow, _"walking the person through the training"_ or it just won't work! The dog will suffer immeasurable horror and they'll never learn anything. Who ya gonna believe, LD, the detractors or your lying eyes! lol. 



Lucy Dog said:


> There's nothing negative associated with the collar and his methods. I also used (and still use) tons of positive reinforcement when introducing and working with the collar.


WHAT!? Mix the methods together! Impossible! Can't be done! Stop this crazy talk immediately. 



Lucy Dog said:


> If the OP is considering going the e-collar method, I highly recommend they thoroughly read through Lou's techniques before even trying anything.


Obviously you're nothing a paid shill so that I can sell more Ecollars. Your four years of membership and 5,500+ posts are just a cover. 



Lucy Dog said:


> She's the same great dog she was before even trying on an e-collar. IMHO, there's nothing negative about it - using Lou's methods.


Lucy this is obviously a lie. In reality she's a robot and is now afraid of anything and everything. She's been ruined and will never recover. You just can't admit it, and have to say things like this, or you know that I'll drive over to your house and ..................... 



Lucy Dog said:


> The e-collar is a training tool just like a prong, halti, choke, treats, tugs, whatever. Not every tool is right for every dog and all of these tools can be abused if put in the wrong hands... maybe some more than others. As owners, we need to find what we're comfortable with and what our dogs are comfortable with. The back and forth about who's right and who's wrong is just stupid and pointless because no one's going to win that war.


Too much common sense and open−mindedness here. Please stop, you're upsetting some of the members.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

LouCastle said:


> Too much common sense and open−mindedness here. Please stop, you're upsetting some of the members.


 
:wild: :wub: :wild: :wub: :wild:


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i was the one with the cheap guitar that had 4 strings on it
playing the 2 chords i knew. :laugh:



doggiedad said:


> it's forum, we're online. we can't sit in a virtual circle singing Kum Ba Ya before we post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the snark is merely the e-collar of words, the prong of words,
the yank on the collar of words, the put in the crate of words,
the bop on the nose of words, the left in the yard of words, the alpha
of words, the dominant of words, the NILIF in words, the i'm
getting ready to brush my dog and go hang out and walk around town
in words, whaaattt? i'll bark and snark at you later. the dog an i are going to hang out.



LouCastle said:


> One problem with the snarky comments is that many people will respond in kind. Pretty soon it's all snark and the original question has been lost in the snark. Sometimes snark is intended to dilute the flow of information in a thread where the discussion is about a tool or method that the snarker doesn't like. By starting a snark war, the information, even though it continues to flow, gets lost in the snark. Many people who are looking for the information won't read through the snark to get to it.
> 
> Sometimes the snark is lies. Sometimes the snark is a diversion when someone has been caught either in a ... let's be polite and call it an error, rather than a lie, and they don't want the members to see how badly they've been exposed. Sometimes the snark is directed at someone's experience or what they've accomplished, as if only the snarker's experience or accomplishments have value.
> 
> ...


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Time to get back on topic. The OP asked a basic question about the use of an e-collar and also about the prong. They have been given good advice and some options to look into. *

*The back and forth arguing does NOTHING to further the discussion and just chases members away. Do people ever consider that it would be far better that a member at least get some guidance in the use of a tool, even if you don't like the tool, than have them go off and do things on their own? *

*Thank you,*

*ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

lhczth said:


> *Do people ever consider that it would be far better that a member at least get some guidance in the use of a tool, even if you don't like the tool, than have them go off and do things on their own? *
> 
> *Thank you,*
> 
> *ADMIN Lisa*


:thumbup::thumbup: ADMIN Lisa - this is PERFECT!! ExACTly what I was trying to say! For it is what I have done. Come here, get blasted, go elsewhere. Same people on another forum & get blasted there, too. So go elsewhere, where I got some 100% ca-ca. Wasted more time & $$. MUCH better to come here. And Sgt. Castle - you're right, too. We have bad snark-itis here, IMO. That gets us NOwhere! :thumbup::thumbup:

PS I like Kum By Yah...
PSS - I have to say, some chemo days are easier to take than the self-inflated postings. Can we keep on track? I personally, would like to learn more about the ecollar. Go so far to say I will buy 1, ASAP. (Or, as soon as I can lower my insurance expenses, co-pays & deductables. WOW - do you guys have ANY idea how much ONE chemo treatment is????)


----------



## harmony (May 30, 2002)

I can never read a lot but let me tell you there is a whole different experiene as if it was shoke or agression.


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

*Did you ever make a decision?*

I'm new to this forum, just joined last night ... and this thread caught my eye. I knew as soon as I started that it would be a heated debate ... some issues just are!

This is a really long post, as I wanted to provide some background, so you know where I’m coming from. I’m a no nonsense person when it comes to training, and my expectations of my puppy / dog. Just before Ky switched from smart to brat she was 100% reliable in sit, stay, walk, run, slow, fast, heel, take, hold, drop, leave it, wait, find it, up, down, on and off.

When Kyleigh was about 9.5 - 10 months old, any and all training flew out the window. I knew this would happen, but when you see it happen in a puppy with so much drive, it's an extremely difficult time. 

I have socialized her to no end. She’s an aloof shepherd with people, but does love her dog friends. We spent about 2 hours a day at the off leash dog park. 45 minutes for her to run, get the zoomies out and just be a puppy, and then another ½ hour to 45 minutes of walking in a “pack” and learning to pay attention, follow, etc. And then finally another 20 minutes or so at the end, to burn that last amount of energy before heading back home. 
I’ve done what’s been coined as urban agility with her. Nothing too strenuous – jumping up on benches, low walls, etc. in the city, all kinds of things. We practised all of her commands in quiet places, and right downtown during rush hour. She was doing brilliantly. 
And then WHAMO … this HUGE personality shift. I recognized that it’s a developmental change in the dog, and I believed I was ready for this. HA! She had me at the biggest loss ever. 
It happened slowly, and I admit, I missed it completely the first couple of times, simply thought she was just being a puppy, like all the other puppies. A dog would be running at the off leash park, another would chase, and then another and then there’s 5 or 6 dogs running around the park (it’s huge – about 75 acres) and Ky is in there having fun chasing. This was fine for about 8 months. One day, the leader stops to catch his breath and Ky circles him and starts barking. Oh cute, I thought, she wants him to keep running, she’s not tired yet. This was MY first mistake. 
It progressed over a couple of days and then suddenly her energy jacked up the energy of a couple of other dogs, and BOOM a scrap at the dog park. No one was hurt (human or dogs) but I knew that Ky had been the instigator because I didn’t stop her. 
At that point I tried everything she had learned and had been so successful in – leave in, come, etc. NOPE … nothing … she didn’t even flick an ear. If she was in chase mode, too late (Obviously, you’re supposed to stop the dog BEFORE the behaviour, not midway LOL). I watched her like a hawk and as soon as she made eye contact with the dog she would chase, I say LEAVE IT in a stern voice … she’d stop and then bolt. EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING because you know she knows … but she also knows you can’t stop her. 
I tried putting her on leash and walking the park. That was fine, she walked beautifully on leash, didn’t care. 
After 3 weeks I stopped going to the park. But I was at a loss. I’m not one of those people that gives up. I HAVE to find a way to get her back to the park. It’s great exercise for both of us, it’s close to my house, and it’s a safe place for her to be off leash and burning off that energy. (So that when I go to work with her later in the evening, she’s actually listening!)
We went on long hikes, walks, etc. lots of mental / physical stimulation. I upped the training introduced some more commands (knowing how smart the breed is) and she did wonderfully. The ONLY problem I had was at the off leash park and she wanted to join in the chase … she wouldn’t just stop at the chase … she had to herd (gee, wonder why? ROFLMAO) but then her energy level would cause scraps. 
I went to see some people do Schutzhund and was impressed with what I saw, but don’t want to do sport training with my dog (thought I did, but changed my mind). They did tell me about the e-collar. I mentioned my hesitation with it, and got lots of positive information from them. I decided to do some more research and after a couple of days, I ordered the Dogtra 1900NS. 
I didn’t have to do basic obedience with the e-collar, Kyleigh already knew all that, but I did use it to reinforce the leave it command. I practised in the backyard with squirrels and birds. It took a couple of trials before she got it. Then I had some of my friends come over to my place with their dogs to see what would happen. And sure enough, one of the dogs started to run around and another joined in and then Ky jumped in the chase. I let her run (these are her dog friends!) but the second the lead dog stopped running, my finger was on the button and I was getting ready. (Timing is EVERYTHING). She barked once and I hollered LEAVE IT, she looked at me and was just about to bark again and I “nicked” her. (The remote is always in my pocket.) She stopped and I called her over to me. She came over and I praised her for stopping, and for coming to me when called (recall has never been an issue!)
Next step, the off leash dog park during off times. It worked like a charm. She did get nicked a couple of times. I called this the testing stage … Will I really get this uncomfortable situation EVERY SINGLE time? Well, yes, puppy, you will. After about 5 visits to the park, I seldom have to use the collar. Some times she corrects herself, other times I just holler leave it, and she does. 
The self-correcting is AMAZING to watch. I let her join in running with SOME of the dogs … dogs whose owners I know, dogs that she knows, and ONLY when there’s not a crowd of people / other dogs around because I don’t want things to escalate (and we all know how fast they can escalate with 20 off leash dogs!) She has learned – through the PROPER use of the e-collar – that she is allowed to join in the chase, but when the lead dog stops running, she stops and waits. Or she’ll come and sit beside me. I praise her vocally, for both decisions that she has made. 
There are times when I do have to call out leave it, and she responds admirably. It’s the rare occasion that I actually have to use the collar when I have her at the off leash park, and the e-collar has been a life saver for both of us. Peace of mind for me knowing that my dog IS under my control, and a safe place for her to burn that endless energy. 
Someone had posted that they keep the collar on for 48 hours … I believe they meant to type 4-8 hours. Kyleigh doesn’t wear the e-collar (or any other collar) any other time. 
For all the other training, I used a martingale collar and had wonderful results with that training methodology. 
I was literally at my wits end in trying to figure out how to control my puppy’s drive. Some people told me, that’s a GSD for you, and you’ll never be able to take her back to the off leash park. Others told me it was a phase and to let her grow out of it. I’m a firm believer that if you don’t stop your puppy from doing unwanted behaviour ASAP it will get worse. And, I don’t believe that any dog should be kept unsocialized – they are pack animals, and they need friends. So I searched high and low for a method that I could use positively with my dog. I was very happy with the results in using the e-collar. 
The important thing to remember when using the e-collar is TIMING. One of my friends has a dog that would guard Kyleigh at the off leash park. If she was playing with Kyleigh and another dog came up to play, she would chase the other dog off. He thought it was funny, I told him, um, not so much. He said, ok, I’ll get an e-collar to fix it. Me – Um, no, you need to work with her a bit more on training before you slap a collar on her and start zapping her. We did a “test” at the park. I said, hypothetically, she has an e-collar on already, tell me when you would nick her. He was always 5-6 seconds too late. I pointed this out to him … you would be correcting her for something completely different than what you want – you’re telling her she can’t run … not that she’s not supposed to go after the other dog. He said he would “practice” his timing … I said, no practice more on training. She barely knows her commands, and not reliably. I ended the conversation by telling him that if he didn’t do it properly he would end up damaging his dog psychologically because he would be “correcting” her for the wrong things, and she would end up super confused, and could potentially shut down. 
So, if you’re still wondering if an e-collar is a good idea … I would say it depends on you, your dog, and how consistent you are going to be with your training, and your timing. Any tool can be harmful, just like any tool can be wonderful. 
Lots of luck in making your decision, and please post back on what you decided, I would love to read about any follow up.


----------

