# He totally bit someone today....



## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Took him for a walk today and some guy saw him. "What an awesome dog, so beautiful, oooh black GSD, blah blah blah."

Anyways, guy starts to pet him and my dog tolerates it for about 5 seconds then tries to bite/nip his hand after sniffing him a little. I correct with the prong. (Note: Similar situations had occurred 2 other random times in the past, so I was not shocked per say).

Anyways, since the guy was totally cool about it and didn't seem to go away, I figured I could use this as a training opportunity (perhaps a mistake). I give the guy some treats and say to approach the dog slowly and offer the treats with an open hand. I even shake hands with the guy first to communicate that the guy is not a danger. Anyways, my GSD spends 3 seconds sniffing his hand and then BAM! nips/bites his palm. Tiny wound, but it was legitimately bleeding. 

I was very appologetic, but the guy was still totally cool "oh it's ok, this stuff happens" and we go our separate ways. Maybe he'll come back to sue me or something later I don't know.

The guy was smoking, maybe he didin't like the smell? But anyways, this event has totally freaked me out now. It's his 3rd time of expressing such behavior toward a stranger. But it's the first time he's actually hurt a stranger. And I've pretty much decided that I will not allow any stranger to touch him or get too close to him anymore. I will also muzzle him securely when at the vet. I don't want my dog to be taken away/put down and I don't want to get sued.

I'm done with all the socializing. I really tried to socialize as much as possible since he was 12 weeks until now - 1 year. Up to the point of sexual maturity, he was super friendly with everyone; so much so that I was concerned about it if you look at my old threads. But now, he's completely aloof, scared, or aggressive or some combination; I don't know. 

I really didn't want my GSD to paint a bad aggressive picture for the breed, but I think I have failed.


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## jennyp (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh no, I'm sorry to hear that. Are you working with a trainer/behavioralist? If so, what do they suggest?


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

It was time to get a trainer 3 months ago when you admitted your quickly growing male GSD bullies you. Now you have a potential lawsuit. 

Do the right thing and get into a training facility.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I doubt he will sue you. But don't minimize and don't make excuses (smoking). I am not a behaviorist. I have heard that sometimes correcting with a prong collar can make a reactive dog moreso, I guess the dog associates the correction with the item he fears and reacts to moreso than the behavior. I dunno, just think that didn't work, get with a trainer. 

There is more to this than just wearing a muzzle in public or not letting strangers pet your dog. It is disconcerting that the dog is taking it upon himself to decide who he will tolerate and who he will not, and that he will go directly to snapping/biting rather than barking, grumbling, growling, snapping without contact, etc. I almost think the dog is confused about who gets to make decisions, but I can be all wet about that, it can also be that the dog had been taught effectively not to bark, grumble, or growl.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I doubt he will sue you. But don't minimize and don't make excuses (smoking). I am not a behaviorist. I have heard that sometimes correcting with a prong collar can make a reactive dog moreso, I guess the dog associates the correction with the item he fears and reacts to moreso than the behavior. I dunno, just think that didn't work, get with a trainer.
> 
> There is more to this than just wearing a muzzle in public or not letting strangers pet your dog. It is disconcerting that the dog is taking it upon himself to decide who he will tolerate and who he will not, and that he will go directly to snapping/biting rather than barking, grumbling, growling, snapping without contact, etc. I almost think the dog is confused about who gets to make decisions, but I can be all wet about that, it can also be that the dog had been taught effectively not to bark, grumble, or growl.


I've been looking for a trainer for a while now. But it's been difficult to find a legitimate trainer that actually works with my busy work schedule.

Overall, I'm finding him to be unpredictable with strangers. So for now, no more strangers petting him or any of that jazz. The stange thing for me was the sniffing then the biting. Almost like he was thinking about it.

Also, he barks, grumbles, and growls freely. I have never trained him to not do any of that. Other than telling him to be quiet when he barks excessively.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't let any stranger ever touch or pet my dogs while out on walks- my Lila is weary of strangers and will nip and my other girl Cece is friendly but I don't want to get sued if by chance she jumped on someone and they fell or something similar happened. GSDs bond deeply with their people and don't particularly want to be petted by strangers.
You haven't failed your dog-I socialized both my girls the same and they both have different tolarences to stress. Lila sees a behaviorest and has to be more carefully managed. It's just her personality and I had to learn to stop blaming myself and focus on things she can do.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> I doubt he will sue you. But don't minimize and don't make excuses (smoking). *I am not a behaviorist.* I have heard that sometimes correcting with a prong collar can make a reactive dog moreso, I guess the dog associates the correction with the item he fears and reacts to moreso than the behavior. I dunno, just think that didn't work, get with a trainer.
> 
> There is more to this than just wearing a muzzle in public or not letting strangers pet your dog. It is disconcerting that the dog is taking it upon himself to decide who he will tolerate and who he will not, and that he will go directly to snapping/biting rather than barking, grumbling, growling, snapping without contact, etc. I almost think the dog is confused about who gets to make decisions, but I can be all wet about that, it can also be that the dog had been taught effectively not to bark, grumble, or growl.


Not a behaviorist? Maybe you should be. You always make sense and see the heart of the problem.


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## squeakermama (Nov 2, 2010)

I'm a true believer that a dog should never show aggression without due cause like being hurt. Having a dog protect is more of a behavior than true aggression and should be able to be controlled. I also think that your dog is showing signs of distrust/distress and not just all out aggression. Needs you to be a leader to feel comfortable. You might be doing things to be giving him some mixed signals (?) causing confusion on who is in control. I agree that you need a good trainer. If you don't get a handle on the situation a law suit is predictable. Keeping a muzzle or isolating your dog is not going to fix the behavior and probably increase the behavior. Muzzles are great for training but suck as a all over fix it. Best Regards.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

CeCe said:


> GSDs bond deeply with their people and don't particularly want to be petted by strangers.


This. 
I don't know why anyone would want people to pet their dog anyway - but if someone chose to (against advice from the owner) then they ought not be bitten because of that. 




CeCe said:


> You haven't failed your dog-I socialized both my girls the same and they both have different tolarences to stress.


I actually _do_ think people fail their dog(s) when they allow the dog to become so stressed out it does nip or bite someone. If this dog was leashed, it was under control and the owner made the decision that, although the dog has shown clues and hints in the past that it might nip/bite, someone should pet it. And it then proceeded to bite/nip not once but twice. 

The first time should have been a clue. There should have been numerous clues even _before_ this first nip that turned into a bite. Clues that should have told you "Don't let people pet my dog!"
And I've also heard jerking on a prong can make aggression worse. It makes sense.

To the OP - you are probably transmitting signals down the leash, your apprehension is causing the fear to be worse. This sounds like a fearful dog and you're missing all the signs and exposing this dog to the very things that are making it uncertain and fearful. And then compounding it. 

So yes, I do feel you are failing your dog, but you can stop this pattern and get help, if you're broke and can't hire a professional, at the very least learn DOG 101, read books and _learn_ how to stop this or your dog will soon wind up at the vet clinic waiting for the needle.

Here's a very good book you can buy or maybe even find at the library today.
Fearful Dogs | Positive help for fearful, shy & anxious dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some dogs are just not pyschologically balanced .
I don't know this dog from previous posts, others do , and there seems to be a consistency . BGSD says of her dog "Overall, I'm finding him to be unpredictable with strangers. So for now, no more strangers petting him or any of that jazz. The stange thing for me was the sniffing then the biting. Almost like he was thinking about it.

Also, he barks, grumbles, and growls freely. I have never trained him to not do any of that. Other than telling him to be quiet when he barks excessively."

that is a nerve issue . You are not going to change the spots on the dog, you can not train basic temperament -- with training the dog might resent the pressure and direct that fear aggression on the handler . Things to be found out . On the other hand "good" training may take some of the pressure away from the dog because it knows what to do and will settle in to that framework. Training with a skilled person directing is necessary. The rest comes down to dealing with the reality of what "this" dogs limits and potentials are and managing the dog well .

I have never bought the stranger give a cookie bit to socialize a dog . The handler is the role model , how you behave and your comfort signal the dog , in youth when it is still developing . A mother dog who scoots away will have all her pups follow , without question . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

It looks like I'm getting mixed opinions about whether or not to allow strangers to make physical contact with your GSD.

I was watching these series of videos by Michael Ellis, and I think my GSD definitely has resource and fear/anxiety aggression. No surprise here, since I've been working on these issues as they've come up. But I think, ultimately, his nerves (genetics) definitely play a role here. 






In regards to trainers, part of the challenge is finding someone who is effective at dealing with aggression issues. I don't mind spending some money, but it seems many are unqualified for dealing with aggression issues, especially with a strong, intelligent dog such as a GSD. So unless someone can point me in the right way (So Cal), I'll probably be researching for a while.

I should point out that I never said I will isolate my dog, but rather, I will no longer allow strangers to touch him. Just like how Service Dogs are not allowed to be petted for the most part. I intend to continually introduce him to new environments and experiences as much as possible, but no more strangers petting my GSD. I personally never touch anyone's dog anyways.

Finally, I'm ditching the prong and switching to the Mendota slip for the time being. The prong is definitely aggrevating the situation in my opinion and based on this additional video.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I used a Halti on my reactive dog. That way, when someone insisted on coming within reach, I could slide my hand up the tab and pin his mouth closed. I also used it because he liked to shriek and bark all the time so this was another method of hushing him in the wee hours of the morning. I also used a dominant dog collar for when he was fixating. I recommend Brenda Aloff's books, I trained with her for help with my dog and she's excellent.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I like the canny collar better than Haltis-- The Canny Collar - The Best Collar to Stop Dogs Pulling on the Lead

I'm confused I guess, as to why the dog needs to be out in public around people?
If I had a dog I couldn't trust and that had already bitten, I would not expect it to feel comfortable out in public, but then again I don't _need_ it to go out and about with me.
Walking around people is great for social butterflies but not for dogs who feel uncomfortable around people. 

Some of our dogs can be taken out, some cannot. That's just how they are, and I accept them for that and work with them where they are at.


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

BGSD said:


> Anyways, guy starts to pet him and my dog tolerates it for about 5 seconds then tries to bite/nip his hand after sniffing him a little. I correct with the prong. (Note: Similar situations had occurred 2 other random times in the past, so I was not shocked per say).


Why would you allow someone to pet your dog when you've dealt with biting/nipping in the past? Too scary for me...in today's letigious society, all I can see is dollar signs!

One of the things our trainer has taught our class (everyone in the class is a rescuer from a local GSD rescue) is the importance of US (the handler/owner) being the leader/alpha/protector, etc. so that the dog is secure knowing that WE are in charge...there's no need for them to act out because they trust we're doing the right thing.

Honestly, I'd never thought much about that perspective before, but it makes sense...if our dogs have faith in OUR abilities to be in charge of every situation, there's no need for them to "react" out of fear. I don't let anyone approach my dog - Beau's mental stability is more important to me than worrying if I'm coming across as a B-word because I won't let someone pet my dog.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

My female is the kind of dog that does not appreciate strangers and she will nip when she is uncomfortable or over her threshold. I still take her for walks, hiking, to parks(on leash), to petsmart, to home depot, to dock diving events. 

I watch her body language and manage her behavior. I do not allow strangers to ever approach her. No one needs to pet her, I don't care what they think, and I cannot afford to make a mistake. It is pretty easy to see what she is telling me by the way she acts which gives me the insight as to how to handle any given situation. My girl is quite strong with a stronger prey drive so I am always on my toes. Through careful management she is much much better than when I first got her. Set your dog up for success - that was the absolute best advice I ever got!


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

carmspack said:


> some dogs are just not pyschologically balanced .
> I don't know this dog from previous posts, others do , and there seems to be a consistency . BGSD says of her dog "Overall, I'm finding him to be unpredictable with strangers. So for now, no more strangers petting him or any of that jazz. The stange thing for me was the sniffing then the biting. Almost like he was thinking about it.
> 
> Also, he barks, grumbles, and growls freely. I have never trained him to not do any of that. Other than telling him to be quiet when he barks excessively."
> ...


We are so on the same page here. Sometimes it's just better to limit/eliminate interaction with others.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BGSD said:


> Took him for a walk today and some guy saw him. "What an awesome dog, so beautiful, oooh black GSD, blah blah blah."
> 
> Anyways, guy starts to pet him and my dog tolerates it for about 5 seconds then tries to bite/nip his hand after sniffing him a little. I correct with the prong. (Note: Similar situations had occurred 2 other random times in the past, so I was not shocked per say).
> 
> ...


Well.... now you know what NOT to do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

law1558 said:


> One of the things our trainer has taught our class (everyone in the class is a rescuer from a local GSD rescue) is the importance of US (the handler/owner) being the leader/alpha/protector, etc. so that the dog is secure knowing that WE are in charge...there's no need for them to act out because they trust we're doing the right thing.


This is how we manage our own dogs, as well, and a terrific idea.




> I watch her body language and manage her behavior. I do not allow strangers to ever approach her. No one needs to pet her, I don't care what they think, and I cannot afford to make a mistake.


From the OP's post, 3 nip/bites already, I get the feeling that they can't figure out the behavior and what to watch for. If they did, they'd not have exposed three people to their dog's biting behavior, and not exposed their dog to things that were making them uncomfortable.

At that point you go, wow, maybe you ought to leave your dog at home. 
Not because I think that's necessarily a good idea...but because they've not been successful in managing the behavior at all.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> From the OP's post, 3 nip/bites already, I get the feeling that they can't figure out the behavior and what to watch for. If they did, they'd not have exposed three people to their dog's biting behavior, and not exposed their dog to things that were making them uncomfortable.
> 
> At that point you go, wow, maybe you ought to leave your dog at home.
> Not because I think that's necessarily a good idea...but because they've not been successful in managing the behavior at all.


...not so much at home...but quit having strangers interact with the dog. 

You can still take a dog on walk without letting strangers petting him every time there is a chance. 

Just stop trying to socialize the dog and stop people as soon as you see them walking towards you. Just say: NO! You can't pet my dog, he's not friendly. 

Buy a vest with "IN TRAINING - DO NOT PET" 
People respect that more than a gorgeous dog without a vest. 

Put it on there in big fat letters and if anybody asks or just doesn't get it, WALK AWAY!

Simply avoid putting the dog in these situations where he could nip or bite a stranger, meaning, don't stop to talk to them, don't get to close to them. Stop them before they get into nipping/biting distance... .they'll get over it!


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

law1558 said:


> Why would you allow someone to pet your dog when you've dealt with biting/nipping in the past? Too scary for me...in today's letigious society, all I can see is dollar signs!


The guy was kind of encouraging it. Yeah, I shouldn't have done it though.



> One of the things our trainer has taught our class (everyone in the class is a rescuer from a local GSD rescue) is the importance of US (the handler/owner) being the leader/alpha/protector, etc. so that the dog is secure knowing that WE are in charge...there's no need for them to act out because they trust we're doing the right thing.
> 
> Honestly, I'd never thought much about that perspective before, but it makes sense...if our dogs have faith in OUR abilities to be in charge of every situation, there's no need for them to "react" out of fear. I don't let anyone approach my dog - Beau's mental stability is more important to me than worrying if I'm coming across as a B-word because I won't let someone pet my dog.


I agree, but I think if the dog has poor nerves genetically, then the situation becomes more challenging.



Zisso said:


> My female is the kind of dog that does not appreciate strangers and she will nip when she is uncomfortable or over her threshold. I still take her for walks, hiking, to parks(on leash), to petsmart, to home depot, to dock diving events.
> 
> I watch her body language and manage her behavior. I do not allow strangers to ever approach her. No one needs to pet her, I don't care what they think, and I cannot afford to make a mistake. It is pretty easy to see what she is telling me by the way she acts which gives me the insight as to how to handle any given situation. My girl is quite strong with a stronger prey drive so I am always on my toes. Through careful management she is much much better than when I first got her. Set your dog up for success - that was the absolute best advice I ever got!


Yep, agree with every word. Idealy, I would like him to tolerate strangers. He might not like it, but he should tolerate it to some extent. Makes things much easier, particularly in cases like at the vet. But ultimately, if that can't be achieved, then avoidance is probably the best strategy.



msvette2u said:


> From the OP's post, 3 nip/bites already, I get the feeling that they can't figure out the behavior and what to watch for. If they did, they'd not have exposed three people to their dog's biting behavior, and not exposed their dog to things that were making them uncomfortable.
> 
> At that point you go, wow, maybe you ought to leave your dog at home.
> Not because I think that's necessarily a good idea...but because they've not been successful in managing the behavior at all.


I don't think talking down to me achieves anything, either for me or my dog. This is my first dog. I've had him for less than a year. So no, I will not be able to read my dog as well as someone who's either a trainer or has had extensive experience with dogs.

This is the first time he's made contact with anyone. In the previous two cases, he barked them off essentially. So this case was different, yet similar in the foundation.




Mrs.K said:


> ...not so much at home...but quit having strangers interact with the dog.
> 
> You can still take a dog on walk without letting strangers petting him every time there is a chance.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Ninamarie (Feb 14, 2010)

Is he still intact? or is he altered? That too might be something behind the growling/nipping biting?


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

The general consesus seems to be that neutering does not solve behavioral problems.

But yes, he is intact for the time being. He actually has one cryptorchid testicle, so I plan to neuter in a few months time.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

this


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

BGSD said:


> The general consesus seems to be that neutering does not solve behavioral problems.
> 
> But yes, he is intact for the time being. He actually has one cryptorchid testicle, so I plan to neuter in a few months time.


I have seen some positive behavioral changes, and no negative ones, in adult males in rescue after (3-4 months at most after) neutering. So while if may have no negative and the dog may stay the same, it can have some positive. Mostly, calming and focusing things, but taking the edge off some of the dogs' other behaviors. 

I see law gave you some info on the trainer they use in another thread - I think that sounds like a good choice. 



> I agree, but I think if the dog has poor nerves genetically, then the situation becomes more challenging.


That's typically the main reason you see for these behaviors so it is always going to be challenging. Challenges can be good though. 

You should check out the Yahoo shy k9 group. shy-k9s : shy-k9s

Protecting your dog and re-establishing a trusting relationship will go a long way to helping the "aggression" issue. A relationship with a dog where they know you will take care of them...helps a ton. 

You definitely don't want to tamp down or take away their communication so that they lunge and bite without the warnings, and sometimes this is what people do to correct the issue, without going deeper.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> this


Yeah, but I really wouldn't want a shy, weak nerved dog with aggression issues, wear a vest labeling him as working dog. 

Can you imagine what would go through the press if something happened and the dog was labeled as working dog? 

"In Training" and "Do Not Pet" would be much better. Or just "Do Not Pet" alone, usually is enough. 

I know that wasn't your intention, just saying


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I could only go with what was available I don't believe "in training" was, so this was it.

Just to add, Masi is fine in public, but does prefer to be left alone by strangers, when someone asks me "what she working at?" I say "training" 

So, because she isn't miss social butterfly in public, I just throw this on her..it's good reflective vest if we're off in the woods to


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I have seen some positive behavioral changes, and no negative ones, in adult males in rescue after (3-4 months at most after) neutering. So while if may have no negative and the dog may stay the same, it can have some positive. Mostly, calming and focusing things, but taking the edge off some of the dogs' other behaviors.


Ditto. It cannot hurt and may indeed help. At least will eliminate one issue


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Please don't give up on socializing your dog! For a dog who is underconfident, keeping him at home will only make things worse. You don't have to make him meet and greet, but keep getting him out there to see the world and make his experiences positive ones. I "gave up" on my boy about the same age as your dog, and he grew increasingly reactive to even things he encountered every day. I don't think the socialization process should ever end, through the dog's whole life.

Consider finding a class you can take, not obedience necessarily (unless that is what your dog really enjoys), but some kind of skill he can learn to boost his confidence and make his brain work. We had a really great experience with Nose work classes, and they are so much fun!

Ali Brown has written some great books on Fear. http://www.amazon.com/Scaredy-Understanding-Rehabilitating-Your-Reactive/dp/0976641402

http://www.amazon.com/Focus-Not-Fear-Training-Insights/dp/0976641410


A couple other books I found to be very helpful...

http://www.amazon.com/Fight-Practical-Treatment-Dog-dog-Aggression/dp/0970562969

Amazon.com: Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog (Karen Pryor Clicker Book) (9781890948207): Emma Parsons: Books


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I have seen some positive behavioral changes, and no negative ones, in adult males in rescue after (3-4 months at most after) neutering. So while if may have no negative and the dog may stay the same, it can have some positive. Mostly, calming and focusing things, but taking the edge off some of the dogs' other behaviors.
> 
> I see law gave you some info on the trainer they use in another thread - I think that sounds like a good choice.
> 
> ...


So maybe his neutering in a few months time will calm him down hopefully. That would certainly help.



Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, but I really wouldn't want a shy, weak nerved dog with aggression issues, wear a vest labeling him as working dog.
> 
> Can you imagine what would go through the press if something happened and the dog was labeled as working dog?
> 
> ...


I agree. I don't really need a vest or anything though. I have no problem telling people not to pet my dog.



JakodaCD OA said:


> well I could only go with what was available I don't believe "in training" was, so this was it.
> 
> Just to add, Masi is fine in public, but does prefer to be left alone by strangers, when someone asks me "what she working at?" I say "training"
> 
> So, because she isn't miss social butterfly in public, I just throw this on her..it's good reflective vest if we're off in the woods to


Haha, good answer. I do like the look of such a vest too, but I don't want to look like a poser or anything when my dog isn't a working dog. 




Good_Karma said:


> Please don't give up on socializing your dog! For a dog who is underconfident, keeping him at home will only make things worse. You don't have to make him meet and greet, but keep getting him out there to see the world and make his experiences positive ones. I "gave up" on my boy about the same age as your dog, and he grew increasingly reactive to even things he encountered every day. I don't think the socialization process should ever end, through the dog's whole life.
> 
> Consider finding a class you can take, not obedience necessarily (unless that is what your dog really enjoys), but some kind of skill he can learn to boost his confidence and make his brain work. We had a really great experience with Nose work classes, and they are so much fun!
> 
> ...


I'm not "giving up" on socialization. I'm simply giving up for now on having him tolerate strangers petting him. I will continue to take him different places and around people.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I wish you had some good dog people to work with. It is great if you can find people who are not afraid and also have some idea of how to desensitize and set up positive experiences. 

If you don't have such resources, you can learn alot from good written and video sources that tell how to approach modifying a dog's response.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

BGSD said:


> I'm done with all the socializing. I really tried to socialize as much as possible since he was 12 weeks until now - 1 year.


Sorry, it was this sentence which made me think you were giving up. Glad to hear you will keep getting him out there. I don't see anything wrong with not letting people meet him. Good luck!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

He's really old enough to neuter now. It won't hurt his behavior & it might help some. Neutering is not an instant or guaranteed fix, but removing the tumult of hormones could help calm him & might ease any residual anxieties. He'll still need careful, ongoing management & appropriate training, but it might remove some pressure from him. Under the circumstances, if he was mine I'd neuter him ASAP.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> Idealy, I would like him to tolerate strangers. He might not like it, but he should tolerate it to some extent.


 I think that while I would have liked for Nadia to be okay with strangers to some extent, it isn't going to kill me to accept that fact that it just isn't her thing. She is bonded to me, because she knows I protect her, as it should be. I also protect her from behaving badly, as I should. 

For trips to places like petsmart and Home Depot, she wears a Do Not Pet Patch & a Halti. I also have a walking stick that I take with us on hikes, to the store, etc and have seen that most people give us a wide berth, which helps to keep her calm and focused. The Halti gives me much more control of her face-gives me the ability to redirect before she nips, and reading her body language gives me time to redirect before a nip happens. The more we practice these trips, the less she attempts because the more comfortable she is in these situations. I would Never consider not continuing to socialize. 

Here she is with her Do Not Pet patch and Halti resting while I talked to someone at Home Depot. I sewed velcro onto her back pack and her vest so the patch is easily transferable.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Zisso said:


> I think that while I would have liked for Nadia to be okay with strangers to some extent, *it isn't going to kill me to accept that fact that it just isn't her thing.* She is bonded to me, because she knows I protect her, as it should be. *I also protect her from behaving badly, as I should. *


Beautifully put, I bolded the parts that really hit the nail on the head. Sometimes, people feel that they have failed their dog if they aren't out there socializing them 24/7, even if the dog is not into socializing and reacts negatively, which sometimes the owner reads as them not socializing them enough, and then redouble the effort, increasing the odds that their dog will have another bad incident. 

It's okay to say: "My dog is not good with strangers, I will keep her away from strangers, for her own good, and for the good of others". 

It's the same with dog aggreassive or dog reactive dogs, like my Keeta. She is good with them from a distance, thanks to the intensive work and socialization with other dogs that I have done with her. Socialization with other dogs is seeing them at a distance, walking by, and not reacting. That's it. That was her threshold, and that is what we worked on. She is good with Gryff, she is good with one or two other dogs that I know, and other than that, I will never, never, never, put her into a situation where I could possibly not protect her from her own inappropriate reactions. So she is not a dog park dog, and off-leash on heavily used trails dog, or a day-care dog. That's okay. That's just who she is. 

The one suggestion I would like to add to the OP, is that if you are going to use a halti or other head halter, make sure you also have your leash attached to a back-up collar, as dogs can, and do, wiggle out of haltis. It happened all the time when I was assisting in obedience classes.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> if you are going to use a halti or other head halter, make sure you also have your leash attached to a back-up collar


 Most definitely!! Same with a Prong. Prongs can come unsnapped, dogs can and do wiggle out of the Halti's. The very first trip I took Nadia to Home Depot, I thought I had the halti connected to the prong- I checked halfway through the store only to find that the leash was only connected to the Halti. I fixed it right away-after a brief 'Whoaaa!' moment. And I suggest introducing your dog to the Halti before a first trip out-don't just put it on and go. I was lucky with Nadia and while I did everything I advise against here, our first trip was the most successful!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not put vests and labels on the dog. If the dog has tried to bite someone in public three times now, he shouldn't be out in public until this is more thoroughly addressed. 

No, people do not have a right to charge over and molest your dog, but I do side with JQP's assumption that dogs in public are generally well-behaved. The dog has already expressed that being in this situation makes him uncomfortable so why continue to push it? 

Like others have said, many dogs just aren't ever going to tolerate random interactions with strangers. I have a dog, she is on the soft/nervy side. Generally she is happy to greet someone but any unsolicited attention beyond the initial few seconds makes her increasingly more wary and uncomfortable. With her I keep all greetings to a "hi dog!" "ok nice to meet you!" and on we go. If she gives me any uncomfortable vibe I simply make it clear to the other person with my body language that we're not stopping to meet.

I think the root of the issue is twofold: first, the dog's temperament is what it is. Second, the best you can do is work on building the best relationship possible and do things that encourage mutual trust and respect. If the dog has already proven he does not like being pet by strangers, continuing to force the issue (use "flooding" as training) is not going to make him any more comfortable in that circumstance or any more trusting of you. Anytime my dogs show me an issue with their behavior towards another person or dog, I take them back home where they are comfortable and just work on play and very easy training to reinforce the bond we have, I don't go frantically searching for trainers or behaviorist who are often very narrow-sighted and will only address the symptom of the problem.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> I would not put vests and labels on the dog. If the dog has tried to bite someone in public three times now, he shouldn't be out in public until this is more thoroughly addressed.


 I definitely agree!


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Why in the world would you let strangers pet your dog? Maybe when he was a pup, but obviously not now. 

Nobody wants to hear a harsh message but I'm only thinking of what will become of this dog. A trainer may be able to teach you how to read and react to this dog. I hope so. The people who quote weak nerves are welcome to their theory, but in my experience it is all in the training the dog has had from birth up to this point. I don't care the condition of his nerves, terrified or truly aggressive, well bred or a genetic mess. The owner has to be able to read and control him. Somewhere along the line the dog decided that he needed to make decisions for himself and he is. He doesn't bark and lunge, he doesn't cower, he considers the situation and then he acts in a very deliberate way. In his mind he is merely issuing a warning and I wouldn't fault him except that his little hints to be left alone are stronger than people like. If you continue down this path, have you considered that the dog will probably be euthanized for biting.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> He's really old enough to neuter now. It won't hurt his behavior & it might help some. Neutering is not an instant or guaranteed fix, but removing the tumult of hormones could help calm him & might ease any residual anxieties. He'll still need careful, ongoing management & appropriate training, but it might remove some pressure from him. Under the circumstances, if he was mine I'd neuter him ASAP.


He's 1 year old now, so he'll be neutered soon I think.



Zisso said:


> I think that while I would have liked for Nadia to be okay with strangers to some extent, it isn't going to kill me to accept that fact that it just isn't her thing. She is bonded to me, because she knows I protect her, as it should be. I also protect her from behaving badly, as I should.
> 
> For trips to places like petsmart and Home Depot, she wears a Do Not Pet Patch & a Halti. I also have a walking stick that I take with us on hikes, to the store, etc and have seen that most people give us a wide berth, which helps to keep her calm and focused. The Halti gives me much more control of her face-gives me the ability to redirect before she nips, and reading her body language gives me time to redirect before a nip happens. The more we practice these trips, the less she attempts because the more comfortable she is in these situations. I would Never consider not continuing to socialize.
> 
> Here she is with her Do Not Pet patch and Halti resting while I talked to someone at Home Depot. I sewed velcro onto her back pack and her vest so the patch is easily transferable.


The initial problem for me was the fact that he was very good with strangers petting him up until when he reached 8 months or so. So I thought maybe it's just a phase or something. Although now I think his more mature personality feels uncomfortable with stranger contact.



Castlemaid said:


> Beautifully put, I bolded the parts that really hit the nail on the head. Sometimes, people feel that they have failed their dog if they aren't out there socializing them 24/7, even if the dog is not into socializing and reacts negatively, which sometimes the owner reads as them not socializing them enough, and then redouble the effort, increasing the odds that their dog will have another bad incident.
> 
> It's okay to say: "My dog is not good with strangers, I will keep her away from strangers, for her own good, and for the good of others".
> 
> ...


I might look into this halti product. I recently stopped using the prong since I figured it was making things worse and I'm just using a Mendota slip (choke attached to leash). Seems to work fine.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In refering to not taking the dog into public until the aggression is addressed, I think it depends. If the dog is lunging and biting people at random, I would agree. It sounds like this dog did not bite until the guy was actually petting or giving a treat to the dog. Or am I mixing this up with another aggression thread.

Perhaps getting the dog slowly more comfortable around people, without engaging with people, _is _addressing the problem. In any case, if you wait to take the dog out in public until the dog is cured, forget it, the dog will never be in public again.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> In refering to not taking the dog into public until the aggression is addressed, I think it depends. If the dog is lunging and biting people at random, I would agree. It sounds like this dog did not bite until the guy was actually petting or giving a treat to the dog. Or am I mixing this up with another aggression thread.
> 
> Perhaps getting the dog slowly more comfortable around people, without engaging with people, _is _addressing the problem. In any case, if you wait to take the dog out in public until the dog is cured, forget it, the dog will never be in public again.


He doesn't exhibit any aggressive behavior while outside. But I guess he doesn't like it if strangers pet him. Seems like a fear issue.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Selzer- I think that was why I was thinking of the vest to aid in keeping people away from the dog when they are out on walks. But I do agree that if it is random lunging & biting, the behavior should probably be addressed. Perhaps a little of both; getting professional help and following what is learned through that as well as using a vest and working at gradually acclimating the dog to being out in public.

BGSD- that's what I thought...I would just not force the dog to accept strangers.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Way back when, the Whole Dog Journal had an article on dog/fear/aggression. There was someone trying to get a kerchief type system going, purple, red, yellow green. If a dog has a certain type scarf on, you know what the personality is(similar to a shelter's eval on the dogs kennel door). Too bad it can't be put into use, but I know it is unreasonable....and too bad people approach dogs if they are in reach. I have two females that have to be managed in public, and I don't allow them in closed quarters where they are overwhelmed..just not fair to them(and so far we have had no bite incidents)


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

For trainers in LA, how about OJ Knighten. He knows his way around GSDs, Malinois, Dutchies etc.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Jane, I just saw that on a thread, I think on the other board. I thought what a nifty idea, and wondered about trying to implement it in Dock Diving. I have seen several dogs there that are pretty bad about strangers, other dogs, etc I know it could be helpful in many situations.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> Perhaps getting the dog slowly more comfortable around people, without engaging with people, _is _addressing the problem. In any case, if you wait to take the dog out in public until the dog is cured, forget it, the dog will never be in public again.


Not true. My Nikon went through a very reactive stage from 6-10 months. He would bark and get himself into a fit so I couldn't just walk him in a quiet neighborhood for several months. I addressed this problem at home between myself and my dog and after 4 months, he passed his CGC and is now the "neutral dog" for other CGC tests and does public events.


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## law1558 (Feb 20, 2008)

Ucdcrush said:


> For trainers in LA, how about OJ Knighten. He knows his way around GSDs, Malinois, Dutchies etc.


We train with OJ and he's great. He's affiliated with our rescue and he's given all of us (all GSD rescue owners) some great insight to our dog's behaviors.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I would LOVE to train with OJ Knighten. Even if it was just for a few hours, I think I could learn a few things from the guy!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

How does he react to people coming into your house that he has never seen? Or people that he has known but doesn't see very often? Just wondering if this is a reaction you get from him at all times or just on walks.


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