# Request Pics of Spayed Adult Females



## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I am trying to decide whether or not to spay my bitch, and if so, when. While I have not yet decided which route to take, intact or spay, I want the very best for my dog, and for the breed in general.

I am specifically looking for pics of spayed adult females, would like to know the age of the bitch in the pic, and age at which they were spayed.

Sure, I can look online at many places for pics of spayed bitches, but I'd rather see the pics from people who care ALOT about their own pets and the breed, and that have a passion the likes of the members on this particular forum.

Of course, while any additional comments, such as regrets regarding age when spayed, subsequent health concerns, facilities at which the spay was done, processes, etc. are welcome, but please note that I am not trying to start a flame-throwing match here, so please be thoughtful with your words should you have a strong opinion.

Moderators, please let me know if I am posting in this wrong section, or if this is an inappropriate post. If it's posted wrong, I will gladly move it; if it's inappropriate I apologize and will promptly remove it.

Thank you.


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## Fransheska (Sep 11, 2008)

spayed @ around 9 months









she might not be a good example because she was adopted and very skinny due to kennel cough, worms ect.. 
but we've had her for over 3 months and she still hasnt filled out, she has a very girly figure and some say it was because of her spay and the "some dogs get fat, some dogs dont fill out" theory on neuter/spay.
but i think shes just built that way, shes a very small girl. she is expected to grow very much and she only weighs like 50ish pounds


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Here is a pic of Diva when she was 4yo. She was spayed at about 1yo. (I can't remember EXACTLY how old she was since it was 9+ years ago, but she had 1 heat cycle before she was spayed.)










Here is a pic of the only other female GSD I have had in the past.

She was spayed at close to 6 months, she was 2 in the pic. She lived to be 12 with no "issues". (This was 30 years ago. She was born in 1979.)


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Morgan was spayed at 8 months. Never had a health problem with her, knock on wood, she's the healthiest dog I've ever had.
9/10 months









About a year old









18months old. 









Last December


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm a very strong believer in spaying and neutering, so I'll let you know that is where I'm coming from right off!

I have just inherited a 5 month old WGSD that I will spay as soon as possible. Some vets say 4 months for larger breeds, some say 6. I am wanting to wait until 6 anyway. This is because I had my American Eskimo Dog spayed young and I suspect that she was just too little at the time because for years afterwards, she had accidental urination issues. Some was due to a submissive urination/behavorial issue but even after getting past that, she occasionally had "leaks" when over excited. I cannot recall the exactly proper medical explanation, but found through research that leaky plumbing can result after being spayed too young because the operation itself is more complicated & other things can be affected. I'm sure you will come across a better explanation when you research the proper age to spay.

I feel spaying is a must because:
--I don't want to deal with a dog having a period
--I don't want to deal with puppies
--I don't want to deal with excited neighbor dogs
--I want to be able to go to the dogpark, doggy daycare and public obedience lessons
--I have a multiple dog household, as well as friends and family with dogs that visit often, so from a behavior standpoint, it better ensures everyone will play nice - or at least not be distracted by sexual stuff

I'll admit I was a nervous wreck both times I had bitches spayed. My vet insists on keeping them overnight and it was a very bad night both times because I worried so much. Both times they were just fine, had no complications, did not pull at stitches and recovered beautifully. However, I implicitly trust my vet. That is so important.

Neither of my dogs is lazy in the slightest! (wish they'd actually have a touch less energy!) and are beautifully filled out in form and coat. (The dogs I'm speaking of are not GSD's, but I think this sort of thing is universal?) 

Bottom line is I think it is best for health and behavioral issues as well as others mentioned before.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Tika at 3 years of age pre-spay.










Tika at 9 years of age post spay. 










She was about 6 years old when she was spayed. Her adult weight has always been within 5 pounds of her regular weight.


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## chuckstar158 (Sep 8, 2004)

Katie's a rescue. She was spayed at 5 months by them and is now 7 years old. In the pictures... sorry best body shots I have of her at this second... she's probably about 5 or 6 years old.

She's the healthiest dog I've ever had, no problems whatsoever, weighed in at her her checkup last week at 78 pounds.

All of my females over the years have been spayed. No if ands or buts for me but I don't show or compete or breed... I volunteer in rescue and I don't want the other issues that were mentioned above.


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## Nikkoli110 (Sep 9, 2008)

Katie, 2 years old, spayed at 7 months old. 
Before being spayed, 6 months 








1 year 7 months old 








1 year 7 months old








1 year 10 months old


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is it better to spay or neuter after 12 months or more???


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

Both of my dogs are very active, minimally vaccinated and eat a raw diet. Grace does have some health problems, due to genetics and over vaccination IMO.

This is Grace. She was spayed at 6 months while she was in heat (before I knew better...). This picture is of her at 6.5 years old.










This is Kira. She was spayed at 10 months, after 1 heat, and once she had pretty much stopped growing. Picture is probably at about 2 years old.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Grace, pictured here at 8.5 years old. Was spayed sometime prior to 8 months of age. Came into rescue at 10 months already spayed and it wasn't recent. 



















She will be 9 years old this spring. Zero orthopedic issues and is in amazing shape for her age - athletic, great stamina etc. Has always been lean and is a little tall (which could be spay related, but might just be her). Has an easily annoyed digestive system and in last two years became low thyroid. Other than that, great health. 

Dahlia - pictured here at age 2. Spayed some time around age 1.



















Compact and stocky build. No known health problems at this point.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

This is Honey when she was 10 years/4 months old (that's baby Bruiser behind her). She was about 16 months old when she was spayed - had been in heat several times - never bred.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Kali, spayed at 7 years old.

10 yeas old in this pic









Almost 12 in these


























Nara, spayed at 18 months old

9 years old in all of these pics


































Ira, spayed at 7 years old

After her last litter and just a few months before she was spayed.









8 to 8.5 years old (so after spay) in both of these


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## Regen (Mar 8, 2007)

Here is my girl Leica. She was spayed at 6 months prior to first heat.

Around 18 months









Exact same day, only wet

















23 months


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

let me just say these girls are gorgeous
I know for a fact Morgan and Katie are stunning I got to meet them for myself!!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I don't have any really good photos of her yet, but here is my new dog Bianca. She was spayed at about 3-4 years old (it was an emergency spay as she had pyometra.) She's 4 1/2 now




















Below is a photo from her previous owner, taken some time before she was spayed. I don't know her age in this photo but I think she was pretty young.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Tika is friggin' awesome-looking, Amaruq!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Both Kacie and Onyx were spayed at 6 mos.
Kacie is about 78# and 25" and Onyx is #90 and 27"
Onyx at 1 yr 6 mos:*


































*Kacie on the day we adopted her, she was 1 yr 9 mos, and 65# skin& bones:*








*Kacie at almost 3:*








*Her 3rd Birthday: She is camera shy!*


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Now, that I've seen all your bitches, I can honestly say that I am shocked. Not one of them looks overweight at all. I guess that's the difference between people who care for their dogs and the average Joes and Janes that feed them what they themselves eat, like McDonald's and such! 

I kid you not, but nearly EVERY SINGLE spayed bitch I've seen in person is fat, not just overweight, but fat. Good job, all of you, in keeping your dogs in shape.

With that said, to those of you who did raise your dog, then spayed her, if you don't mind me asking, were there any diet issues you addressed to maintain proper proportions? Granted, many people spay before full adult, so adjustments for growth stage not withstanding.

Thanks again, and keep them coming!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Mine was neutered around a year of age (I know you asked about spayed bitches) and all we do is just feed him a proper diet (we do raw) and exercise him properly (aerobic and endurance). If he's too skinny, we feed more. If his ribs start getting a little too padded, I cut back the food or increase the exercise. Provided the dog is healthy, that's all that's needed for dogs (and for people too). Just pay attention to your dog and you'll be fine!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kacie and Onyx could both stand to lose a bit. I feed RAW and Onyx is always hungry! Both get about 1# 2x's a day. Kacieis large boned and because she has a bad elbow, her exercise is more limited-but both are muscled and run/chase constantly. I did not choose to spay at 6 mos on Kacie. Had I known better I would have waited longer for Onyx.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

Mandalay was spayed at about 5 months old. This was taken Jan 27, 2 days shy of her 1st birthday. She is 26.5 inches tall and weighs 88 pounds. 




















Personally, if you are not going to be breeding your dog, then I dont see any reason not to spay her. I feel it is better than an accidental breeding. It would be unfortunate for her to escape out of the house while in heat and end up giving birth to a litter of "Germapoos" or something equally awful.







(not that I have ever seen a GSD/Poodle x, but I am not a fan of poodle x dogs and it seems that they seem to be the latest rave for creating designer x breds).

As for the weight issue...Mandi is not fat, but she is barely a year old, too. Just be careful with what you feed her and keep her excercised.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, not a GSD, perhaps a GSD mix, but about the same size and build, at 70lbs and 23(24?) inches. 

Keeta, spayed at around 1 year of age, shortly after adopting her from the shelter. I do not know if she has had her first heat or not before spaying. Her build and weight have stayed about the same. 

Keeta, first day home. Pre-Spay. 1 year old (approx). 









Spaying did not make her fat or lazy. Her energy level remained the same. She does now have Spay Incontinence that did not respond to medication, but it is now completely controled through raw diet - so not an issue. 

Running the blinds - Post-Spay. About 3 years old.









All wet and showing off her athletic figure, about 3 years old: 









One of her most recent pics at 5 years from a few weeks ago (with normal poofy hair that makes her look heavier than she is). Absolutely no health issues of any kind to date:









I had a vet comment on what excellent muscle tone Keeta has. He said that he rarely sees big dogs in good weight and good muscle tone in his practice, because most just don't get enough excercise. So I think you are right in thinking that the overweight spayed bitches you have seen are overweight due to their owners, and not due to them being spayed.


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## chuckstar158 (Sep 8, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMand for people too.


So that's the trick!







I knew I was missing something! (Kidding.)

Whenever the vet says what great shape Katie's in... I try to suck it in a little. I exercise my dogs WAY better than my own self!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I forgot to add Bianca's height/weight. She is 26" tall and weighs 65 lbs. I think she is actually a bit underweight or maybe just needs to gain some muscle. She looks a little skinny but I am not sure if it's just due to not being muscular.



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> I kid you not, but nearly EVERY SINGLE spayed bitch I've seen in person is fat, not just overweight, but fat. Good job, all of you, in keeping your dogs in shape.
> 
> With that said, to those of you who did raise your dog, then spayed her, if you don't mind me asking, were there any diet issues you addressed to maintain proper proportions? Granted, many people spay before full adult, so adjustments for growth stage not withstanding.


Every spayed female-- is that just GSDs or in general? Here is (photo) my previous dog Ginger, a Golden who was spayed sometime before 1 1/2 years old (don't know when, as I found her at 1.5 yrs as a stray...) That was a photo from when she was 4. Here's a pic at about 9 years old. It looks like she has less of a tuck-up at the stomach because as she got older she lost muscle on her stomach, my vet said it may have been because of her spinal spondylosis. She actually weighed less when the second photo was taken. The only time I had to adjust Ginger's food was when she was a senior dog and started to have trouble keeping weight on so I increased her food and switched to higher protein/calorie grain free foods on my vet's suggestion...


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## Yvette (Jan 29, 2001)

DaKota at 5 yrs. of age spayed at around 2 yrs.








Please forgive me if I do not have any prespay pictures.
She was a total mess when I got her. She was 1 1/2 yr. old & 33 lbs. She is 10 yrs. old now & just started to have problems.
She is still very active & just loves the snow! She also loves to swim.








I only have underweight issues with her. But, I am always watching out for her. I think it was due to her not being fed & being beaten with her food dish. She has come along way though & pretty much stayed in the 90 lb range. She has since went back down to 76 lbs & I am keeping a close eye on it.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

This is Starine pre-spay. She had been out of the shelter for a few weeks and was approximately 10 months old. She was spayed shortly after this pic was taken.










This is 6 months later.....










And at appr. 5 years old.....(I can't find any recent full body shots)




























This is Piper at animal control. She was already spayed when she was picked up and was about 2 years old.










This was a year later - she still looks the same.










Neither one turned out leggy. Star was offically measured at 23.75" and Piper is about the same.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Morgan, I will admit, got a little pudgepot about 5 years old. My male dog and her tag partner had died the end of the previous summer. 

My twins were 2 and used to do the old 'here I don't like this, you eat it' with her. 

Morgan was very thin at 4 y/o, about 60 lbs. When she went for her annual check up at 5 y/o, she tipped the scales at 87 lbs. Mercy, diet diet diet, you kids stop feeding that dog icecream! The following summer she was 75 lbs. Now she's 70lbs. She's almost 24" tall so 70lb is a good wieght for her.

This is her about 87 lbs


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

As you've seen - there's really no reason for a dog to be overweight just because she's spayed. I think one of the reasons it happens is actually incidental to the spay, and more to do with the same reason people gain the "freshman 15." Most people spay their dogs around puberty. Through puppy hood and puberty the dogs are growing so they need a lot of food. Around 1-2 yrs dogs (regardless of whether they've been spayed or not), dogs stop growing but I think a lot of people fail to adjust their food, the dog gets fat, and they conclude it was the spay. Spayed dogs may have slightly lower caloric requirements than intact dogs, but mainly I think it's lack of exercise and too much food. Obesity in people and dogs seems to be so common these days.







At least with dogs, it's very easy to avoid. If we see someone getting chubby, we just dial back their food a bit. If they feel a little thin, we bump it up. I only posted pictures of GSDs who had been spayed a while but we spay all our dogs in rescue and very few of the ones I see post-adoption are overweight. The ones that are, it's directly traceable to owners who are giving them too much food.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Weight control can be an issue in speutered pets, but it doesn't have to be. Less food. More exercise. I've never met the dog that wouldn't welcome the additional activity!

My bitches have always been spayed from 6mos to 1yr. IF I get another female I *might* let her have 1 heat prior to spaying. I'm uncertain as to which is ultimately the healthiest for her. 

I think the health benefits of spaying mildly outweigh those of keeping females intact. I believe the opposite is true in males, especially early castration. That said, prior to Djibouti, my guys were all neutered from 6mos to 1yr & they were long lived & healthy.

I don't like speutering before 6mos, but shelters face a tough balancing act & are confronted with a dilemma where too often there are 'no good choices'.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

KIMBA AT 5 MONTHS-WAS SPAYED AT 5 1/2 MONTHS-NO REGRETS, NO PERSONALITY CHANGES, SLOW STEADY GROWTH TO DATE:








KIMBA AT 11 MONTHS:








KIMBA AT 17 MONTHS:


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

Amara is 2 years old, spayed at 6 months. 67 pounds, 24.5 inches tall. She is fine-boned and leggy, due to the early spay? Who knows. If I had it to do over again, I would not alter her. 


















Here she is at 5 months old:


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineEvery spayed female-- is that just GSDs or in general?


In general.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ahlamaranaIf I had it to do over again, I would not alter her.


Hopefully, this won't start a debate [insert beating a dead horse icon here], but may I ask why you say that?


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: roxy84KIMBA AT 5 MONTHS


off topic - She has got to be one of the most beautiful GSDs I have ever seen. I love her coloring.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

We adopted Mya at age 5...so I have no younger pics...but I was lucky to obtain her medical records and papers from the prior owners....she was spayed at 6 months.

Day she was pulled by rescue - age 5










better shot of her waistline...lol.......she was 62 lbs. 










age 8 - still 62 lbs.....










today she is 9 1/2 and still fluxuates between 60-62 lbs.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Ava - spayed at 5 1/2 months..........62 lbs.......now 2


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think sometimes people think that speutering their pets changes their appearance. But, I think that what their parents look like, their lines, etc. have more influence over what they are going to look like than anything else. 

Annalise-52#-probably spayed at 1-ish years old (not sure how old she is): 


















Bella-went into heat before the rescue could spay her (behavior) so spayed at about 10 months. I would have spayed before first heat if I had a choice. 

Can't tell so well-she's 66#, and almost 7 years old. The other day at the vet office a lady asked if she was a puppy because she was so small.



































This is Angie-she's about 7-and in rescue. She had only been spayed a couple of days here, but in the time leading up to the spay, lost her shelter weight because she went from eating a "heavier" food to a no grain, fish based food that I gave her:









Not sure if you can tell she was "thicker" here:









So it's not so much the spaying to me...as what/how much you feed, and allowing the dog to move. 

I have mixed breed females as well, two are cobby builds and I have to watch what they eat. My oldest female GSD who passed, I also needed to watch for her, because she had exercisophobia.









This was Nina about a month before she passed-she was a bit puffy in the belly from her illness, but she was 66#. She was spayed at 7, had more of a sturdy European look:









Summer 08:










Such great pictures on this thread! I feel like my dogs look chunky compared to some here!


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## flyinghayden (Oct 7, 2005)

Here is Sable's adoption photo. Quite a bit overfed.










A little change in food, and increased activity, this is what she looks like now. She was spayed around 1 year, after she had one litter.


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## Yvette (Jan 29, 2001)

We do have a shelter here that gets alot of 8 wk old pups.
They are spayed/nuetered before they go up adoption.

I had talked to my Vet Tech nieghbor about that shelter. She told me that it is now common for an 8 wk old to get spayed/nuetered here.

Do you all tend to notice that you GSDs & mixes tend to get a bit heavy during winter season?


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

No...Mya and Ava always stay the same weight. I am very serious about weight...

Now...can I say that I don't gain weight in the winter? lololol 

Wish I had someone looking out for me...like I look out for them...lololol


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Non-GSD, but this is Risa. She was spayed by the shelter at 2.5 years of age.
A week after the spay (she was underweight at the time):








Around 5 years old:









Never had a problem with her getting fat.







She's too active. I usually have trouble keeping weight ON her. Partially due to her go-go-go-go nature. But also due to some digestive issues (she usually gets SIBO in the spring). Aside from her GI problems, she's pretty darn healthy!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I had talked to my Vet Tech nieghbor about that shelter. She told me that it is now common for an 8 wk old to get spayed/nuetered here.
> Do you all tend to notice that you GSDs & mixes tend to get a bit heavy during winter season?


We alter the puppies in our rescue program at 10-12 weeks and the ones I've seen as adults haven't been heavy so I'm not sure it makes much difference when you do it as far as a tendency to gain weight or not. My girls don't get any heavier in the winter but I do! I agree Mary Ann - I wish I had somebody to cut me off when I start trying to build up my hibernation layer!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is my female, she is 5 years old (these pics are from the summer, she was 4.5). She was spayed when she was 3.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ahlamaranaIf I had it to do over again, I would not alter her.
> ...


Barring any medical issues requiring alteration I see no reason to do it, and certainly not before the dog is fully grown. I would prefer to deal with any issues that come up in a healthy, intact dog than possibly cause problems by altering. Just my opinion, and I would NEVER try to convince anyone to do the same.









I should also add that I am 110% confident in my ability to prevent a litter. If I had any doubts at all, I would not hesitate to spay.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification. I understand 100% what you're saying, and agree with your philosophy.

With that said, if I DO decide to spay, from the pics posted, and from information I've garnered so far, it sure looks like it is definitely best to spay AFTER maturity is reached, or at least as close to maturity as possible.

With that said, as well, much as I wholeheartedly disagree with all the BS that's made public about it being perfectly fine to spay at a young age, I can understand WHY shelters and rescues now make it a priority to spay young. They have to do SOMETHING to try and control the overpopulation of unwanted dogs, and simply cannot trust Average Joes and Janes to that responsibility. It's just too bad that it has to be done that way. I've often wondered why they don't just do a tubal ligation or some other procedure, but I guess that wouldn't reduce the instances of surrendered dogs, as a bitch would still cycle and as such create an "inconvenience" to some owners.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Not to mention the problems of putting a female under for major surgery twice. 

But from this thread - I'm seeing a lot of people whose dogs were spayed before maturity and who look fine and are experiencing no health problems. And what this thread doesn't look at are the potential health benefits. None of these dogs have mammary cancer, none have pyometra etc. To spay or not to spay and when to do it is a difficult issue, but I don't think there's any clear cut evidence from this thread that it's better to wait.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqNot to mention the problems of putting a female under for major surgery twice.


Huh?











> Quote:And what this thread doesn't look at are the potential health benefits. None of these dogs have mammary cancer, none have pyometra etc.


Whoa, I hear a dead horse being beat. In my original post I was trying to ask in a nice way that we not get into stuff like this on this thread, so let's please not get into this on this thread, ok...please? I'm sure there are already threads on these types of things.











> Quote:To spay or not to spay and when to do it is a difficult issue, but I don't think there's any clear cut evidence from this thread that it's better to wait.


Of course this thread alone can not possibly support either philosophy on when to spay, that's why I specifically mentioned that I had "garnered" additional information. Sorry if I gave that impression, and I apologize if I've insulted anyone.

Maybe I should re-phrase: "To ME, it looks like it MIGHT be....yada, yada, yada..."


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Mya and Ava are insulted....lololololol


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=957019&page=1#Post957019

I had to start a thread like this for the boys, linked above. This is a really cool thread that busts a lot of speutering myths!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> With that said, to those of you who did raise your dog, then spayed her, if you don't mind me asking, were there any diet issues you addressed to maintain proper proportions? Granted, many people spay before full adult, so adjustments for growth stage not withstanding.
> 
> Thanks again, and keep them coming!


My vet wrote of Tika's discharge papers to cut her food by 25%. I disregarded his advice. This is the same vet that I since refuse to see at his clinic due to some other things he said. Tika eats the same as she did pre-spay.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: With that said, if I DO decide to spay, *from the pics posted*, and from information I've garnered so far, it sure looks like it is definitely best to spay AFTER maturity is reached, or at least as close to maturity as possible.


That was the part I was responding to. I think these dogs look great!







I don't see the younger spayed young ones as offering any evidence that it's better to wait. And the few possible effects people mentioned should be looked at in the context of the possible stuff avoided, which is what I was referring to above.

The twice surgery comment just meant that if someone got a tubal ligation when the dog was pre-pubescent to prevent pregnancy and then the owners spayed post-puberty for the health benefits. Sorry that wasn't clear. I can see why it was confusing.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: myamomMya and Ava are insulted....lololololol


Thanks for that! I hate when threads get taken out of context from a little misunderstanding. While we all know what we mean to say when we type, sometimes it doesn't come across the way we intended.

And, FWIW, my bitch's name is mAya.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> With that said, to those of you who did raise your dog, then spayed her, if you don't mind me asking, were there any diet issues you addressed to maintain proper proportions? Granted, many people spay before full adult, so adjustments for growth stage not withstanding.


No diet changes. Nara, who was spayed youngest (18 months) has always had the metabolism of a sloth and eats very little or else she turns into a blimp. She was that way *before* spaying, even when very young and still in the growing stages she would plump out easily. And since she's a complete spazz, it's not from lack of exercise. She was just born with a slower than normal metabolish.

The others eat less now than they did when young because they're older and their activity levels are generally less. But that was a gradual reduction in food over time as they bacame more couch potatoes. Has nothing to do with they spay, but rather them entering their senior years.

I will never not spay a female. Chances of potentially deadly uterine infections are too high. All of our girls will always be spayed at the appropriate time. Since we breed, that usually means later in life after their breeding careers are done. But if we didn't, we'd still spay though not before the dog is fully mature.

Our 12yo Kali has mammary cancer now. This is far more common in intact females than spayed females and one of first steps in treatment for it is to spay an intact female who develops it because the hormonal changes in heat cycles can aggrivate the cancer and cause it to spread quicker. While she was spayed several years before the cancer developed, she was still well into middle age before being spayed and I will always wonder if she'd have still developed the cancer if she'd been spayed younger.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> 
> > Quote: With that said, if I DO decide to spay, *from the pics posted*, and from information I've garnered so far, it sure looks like it is definitely best to spay AFTER maturity is reached, or at least as close to maturity as possible.
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. FWIW, I did say in a previous post higher up in this thread that I thought that the dogs looked great weight-wise and such. But, I personally feel that spaying young alters more than people think, and I think the ones that were spayed young seem to look more puppy-ish in a way, while all the ones that were spayed as adults obviously still look like adults. Maybe it's only MY perception, but there have been studies that prove that, and maybe they've jaded me.

Of course, then there's the issue of when is too young. Obviously, regardless of what folks say about 10 weeks being fine, we all know that's too young if you want your dog to properly develop in othwer ways.

Good point about the tubal ligation and later spay for health benefits. Never thought about it that way, and when I do it makes perfect sense on why most people don't do that.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

"and I think the ones that were spayed young seem to look more puppy-ish in a way"

My old lady Mya says THANK YOU! lololololol


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Great post Chris! 



> Quote: Maybe it's only MY perception, but there have been studies that prove that, and maybe they've jaded me


I haven't seen any studies that show that. There is the one that shows early altered dogs can be a little leggier, but I think it was a difference in milimeters. I will admit, I do see a difference in appearance in males neutered young versus males neutered older but in females no.

If you really wanted a good study you should ask people for pictures of young spayed, older spayed, and intact females but not label which are which and try to guess based on appearance.









ETA: Chris, I'm really sorry to hear about Kali.







We lost my childhood dog to that and it was very hard. Sending good thoughts and woofs to Kali!


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Something else to keep in mind..........we're looking at all kinds of dogs here....

Mya is an Amish puppymill dog....Ava...who knows...some byb....


While some of the dogs posted here come from very reputable breeders with excellent lines........

So that will affect their appearance as well.......

Just a thought.........


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yeah, Nina never would have looked like Bella, Bella would never look like myamom's Ava, I think that is a genetic bone structure difference. I think I've arranged them heavy-medium-lighter. I am not sure if this is what anyone means about looking puppyish. 

Agree with that post, Chris. 

I also think Nina, with her many health problems, would have been healthier had she been spayed sooner. I didn't get her til she was 8 but I think those heats can put a lot of wear and tear on a dog. Of course, this is all guesswork, and wishing she could have been here a little longer and a whole lot healthier while she was with me.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> The others eat less now than they did when young because they're older and their activity levels are generally less. But that was a gradual reduction in food over time as they bacame more couch potatoes. Has nothing to do with they spay, but rather them entering their senior years.


My last two dogs actually had to be fed MORE as they got older... My terrier's activity level was less because of his hip issues and arthritis as he aged but my Golden was only slightly less active. Both dogs were switched to high protein/calorie foods as they got older, then finally to grain-free foods as seniors and both were given more food as they got older to maintain their weights. I have heard that it is not unusual for dogs to actually need more protein as they age. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> I will never not spay a female. Chances of potentially deadly uterine infections are too high. All of our girls will always be spayed at the appropriate time. Since we breed, that usually means later in life after their breeding careers are done. But if we didn't, we'd still spay though not before the dog is fully mature.


This is what happened to my new dog. Her previous owner had acquired her as a breeding dog. She was bred with a top male but she developed pyometra and was spayed. I worry about mammary cancer and things since she was spayed at about 3 years old... My last cat had mammary adenocarcinoma, she was not spayed until adulthood and had several litters before I adopted her.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqTo spay or not to spay and when to do it is a difficult issue...


Yes, this the toughest part. I mean, for me, I think that if I am absolutely SURE I will not breed my dog, then really boils down to a matter of when.

But, thus far, I think this has been a great thread for me. I knew if I asked on this forum, I new would get pics of dogs unlike those super-fatties I see everywhere. I mean, it's one thing if your dog gets overweight, but it's another if you do nothing about it. I mean, if YOU start putting on too many pounds and continue to do so without doing anything about it, your chances of a heart attack and stroke increases, right? So it's up to you. You KNOW it, an choose to do nothing, then you die a horrible death, but it's your decision. But, you are responsible for your dog's weight, and if you do nothing to curb the obesity, then you're the one responsible for the health, or lack thereof, of your dog. Very different things.

There have been quite a few studies regarding bone growth, increases in bone cancer occurence, as well as a myriad of other issues associated with early spays, including perpetual puppy-hood mentality, but of course, everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I mean, when is too early? Surely, 10 weeks is ridiculously young, akin to removing sex organs of a 1.5 year old human baby, which of course is unfathomable, unless it's done in a life or death situation.

But, then again, there is the fact that you can't get a UTI if you have no uterus, or get testicular cancer if you have no testicles. But, in the end, what are the chances of getting those diseases? And, what are the chances of getting bone cancer, or all the cons of speutering and NOT speutering?

And, of course, in reality doing it or not doing offers no guarantees, either way, I am aware of that. Sure, some people may say that I could also easily end up with analysis-paralysis, and not do anything at all even though it may end up being the right thing for me to have done to my dog in the end, but all I'm trying to do is weigh the pros and cons, and I feel that the more info I get the better I will feel about either decision. And, let's face it, it's more about me than the dog at this point, isn't it?

I don't need to be swayed, I don't need opinions jammed down my throat (not that anybody's been doing that on this thread, which I applaud). Just like a human knows what he/she should or shouldn't do about his/her weight, in the end it is up to me to decide.

With that said, the more real-life experiences that I hear about the better... for me, anyways. FWIW, my sister is a vet tech, and is absolutely pro-spay. She says that although not common, she is heart-broken when she sees mammary cancers or UTIs that take out a dog, and for those reasons alone, she is adamant about spaying. In her opinion, she'd rather have a leggy dog (yes, very minimally) with reparable torn tendons, spay incontinence, who is immature all its life, and even overweight, who will die of old age, rather than see it suffer through painful diseases onyly to die early. Admittedly, these are all probably a bit overkill, but her point is well-taken, in my book, and that's how SHE feels.

But, she respects my decision, whatever it may be, and I respect hers.

So, thank you, all of you, for taking the time to post pics and thoughts and experiences. I really appreciate your efforts because I'm sure there are many more things I haven't thought of that will come my way in helping me make my ultimate decision, which for me... again for ME... seems to be harder than I thought. (I've pretty much previously always had males that seemed easy to be responsible for.)

OK, now that you all know my position, or lack thereof, let's back to the original reason for this post, shall we? Any more pics and stats?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> ...


Well, all I can say that you've done a great job with your dog. Sure, it's definitely within reason to surmise that genetics may play a big role here but regardless, that is a beautiful dog. I especially like her color distribution and proportions. Do you happen to have any more pics, just for the sake of entertainment? Or, is this the wrong topic to ask? I'd hate to digress from the original post, and hijack my own thread, but would anyone mind if we saw more Tika? TIKA.... TIKA... TIKA...


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineThis is what happened to my new dog. Her previous owner had acquired her as a breeding dog. She was bred with a top male but she developed pyometra and was spayed. I worry about mammary cancer and things since she was spayed at about 3 years old... My last cat had mammary adenocarcinoma, she was not spayed until adulthood and had several litters before I adopted her.


Yikes!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

_*Would never object to more Tika pictures.*_







I love Tika. She is such a sweetheart and an awesome lap thief.









FWIW, I would always spay my female dogs (Risa is my first and only dog). I do not want to deal with the mess or the potential for accidental pregnancies. However, I would not do it until my female is 2+ years of age (hence why I was happy that Risa had not been spayed until I got her at 2.5). Males, however, I will leave intact.

Oh, and a UTI is a urinary tract infection. Males and females can get it so having or lacking a uterus matters little when it comes to that.







I know you probably meant uterine cancer.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-Elperroguapo_*Would never object to more Tika pictures.*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post.

May I ask why you would prefer to wait for spays? "THEY" say that if you wait too long it negates the health benefits, whoever "THEY" really is.









And, yes, D-U-HHHH, I meant uterine cancer. In my haste to type out that diatribe, my brain somehow associated UTI with uterine cancer.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI new would get pics of dogs unlike those super-fatties I see everywhere.


I think a big part of the spay/neuter = fat dog perspective is more to do with the fact that a huge portion of the pet owning population lets their dogs get obese. And it is also commonly understood amongst the general pet owning population that spaying/neutering is the right and proper thing to do. So the vast majority of owners with fat dogs, have spayed/neutered fat dogs.

This sort of correlation can lead to assumptions of a cause/effect relationship when in truth it's the owners feeding their dogs 10 cups of Pedigree or Alpo and thinking a 10 minute walk twice a week is sufficient exercise that makes the dogs fat. Not that they are spayed/neutered.









Whereas on a place like this board, where the members are vastly more educated than the general pet owning population, and regardless of spayed/neutered or intact, there just aren't many fatties because the owners know better.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

The longer you wait the lower the benefits to reducing your risk of mammary cancer, but many people feel that waiting improves things structurally and may reduce the risk of osteosarcoma. So it's that balance. What's most likely, what worries you more etc. 

The nice thing in nearly all these discussions, at least on this board, is that whichever course people take they are trying their darnest to do the best thing they can for their dog.









Okay, don't smack me (I know I need a sign that says "do you have a citation for that?") but I don't have a scientific study that shows that early spaying leads to behavioral immaturity and I have sure as heck not seen that in my person experience with dogs. Can you post or PM me that link? I HAVE found that dogs with boy parts are more likely to be afflicted with immaturity, but that seems to be true whether you modify the boy parts or not!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I prefer to wait due to research I have done and articles I've read. I think it's important to let the dog physically mature before removing their reproductive parts. Not so sure I want to go through 4 heat cycles with my dog before having her spayed, of course. Maybe I'll just rescue all my females.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqThe longer you wait the lower the benefits to reducing your risk of mammary cancer, but many people feel that waiting improves things structurally and may reduce the risk of osteosarcoma. So it's that balance. What's most likely, what worries you more etc.


Yep, I need to "choose my poison". 



> Quote:The nice thing in nearly all these discussions, at least on this board, is that whichever course people take they are trying their darnest to do the best thing they can for their dog.


Exactly why I posted on THIS forum.



> Quote:Okay, don't smack me (I know I need a sign that says "do you have a citation for that?") but I don't have a scientific study that shows that early spaying leads to behavioral immaturity and I have sure as heck not seen that in my person experience with dogs. Can you post or PM me that link? I HAVE found that dogs with boy parts are more likely to be afflicted with immaturity, but that seems to be true whether you modify the boy parts or not!


*SMACK* Just kidding. I don't remember where I read it, and I wasn't specifically looking for it, but I searched the web for "negative side effects of spay", or something along those lines and came across a couple of reports. I take a lot of what I find on the 'Net with a grain of salt, but the discovery indeed has its merits, if you just apply logic. I mean, too early removal of sexual hormones affects so many different things, it is definitely plausible. But, then again, how do you actually PROVE something like that? It's probably very difficult, if not impossible. You'd have to be able to take a dog, get to know it, spay it, see how it is later, then reverse time and not do it the second time!

Seriously, though, even if you took littermates and spayed one female early and not the other, even if the spayed one was more of a "dufus" later in life does not necessarily mean that she wasn't just more immature to begin with. I get that.

There have been reports of people who deal with dogs that have come to their own conclusions, but again, it is "scientific"? No, and again, I say there's probably NO scientific evidence that can absolutely PROVE it. Just like you can't say for certain that spaying does not result in obesity later in life. In fact, there's actually scientific reports that says that a female is 1.6 times more likely to become obese. Even if that was true, it still does not necessarily mean that MY dog will be, like Amaruq's Tika is obviously not.

I think we all have to look at ourselves and say, is it really harmless to development to remove sexual organs from a mammal prior to maturity, or worse, while it is still basically an infant (in the case of the shelters' new policies)? Granted, maybe other health or population benefits outweigh the risks, but that's not the point. The point is that I would venture to guess that there are indeed negative side effects, regardless of what they are, and as an enthusiast of the GSD breed, I believe an early spay can easily compromise the full potential of a good GSD. Of course, that's relative to each and every owner's desires and expectations, and probably a discussion for another thread, but it is worth mulling over for someone in my position that has a choice in the matter, whereas someone who gets a "rescue" dog does not, making the point moot for them, and they should probably just skip this post.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

The dogs I know who are overweight mostly have medical problems which limit their ability to exercise and I think being spayed is mostly incidental.
For example I have a friend who has a Lab who is overweight, the dog has hip dysplasia and a collapsing trachea so she is not really able to exercise at all. Unfortunately the extra weight makes those conditions worse as well. Her owner been trying to work on weight loss for several years now and is on a very restricted diet but it is very difficult without being able to exercise. 
The other overweight dogs I know either never leave their yards (owners give very little exercise) or are free-fed crappy food like Kibbles n Bits or both.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

The overweight dogs I know are fed crap foods, free fed, fed tons of treats, fed when the DOGS demand it, and don't get enough exercise. These dogs would be fat regardless of the status of their sex organs.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Yeah, it's probably that Doggie Drive-thru. My in-laws are the same way! In fact, they were here for Xmas with their dog, said they were trying to watch her weight at the urgent recommendation from their vet, and literally while we were discussing this, my mother-in-law was preparing her food. Get this:

2 cups of California Natural Lo-Fat Dry Kibble (good, right?)
1/2 can of some wet dog food (I didn't catch what it was)

To me that was already too much food, cause they feed it twice a day like this, not to mention that the wet food probably was counter-productive to feeding the quality Lo-Fat Cal Natural, but here's the kicker...

All the while that we were talking about this and mother-in-law is making Fattie's dinner, father-in-law was preparing the meat for our own Beef Stroganoff. As he trimmed the fat from the meat, he was feeding it to the dog!!!!!! And, we were literally talking about helping her lose weight!

Here's the kicker to the kicker. Ready?

When dinner was over, they took what was left on some of our plates and fed it to the dog!!!!! What the heck are these people thinking? Or, not thinking? This dog ate more in that two hours than my dog eats in a week, and my dog's a puppy that's supposed to eat twice what an adult dog eats! 

OK, now that I'm calm, it's not more than what my dog eats in a week, but you know what I mean???????


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I searched the web for "negative side effects of spay", or something along those lines and came across a couple of reports. I take a lot of what I find on the 'Net with a grain of salt, but the discovery indeed has its merits, if you just apply logic. I mean, too early removal of sexual hormones affects so many different things, it is definitely plausible. But, then again, how do you actually PROVE something like that? It's probably very difficult, if not impossible.


We just have to be careful distinguishing between our feelings about something and studies that support the idea.










> Quote:There have been *quite a few studies *regarding bone growth, increases in bone cancer occurence, as well as a myriad of other issues associated with early spays, *including perpetual puppy-hood mentality *





> Quote: I personally feel that spaying young alters more than people think, and I think the ones that were spayed young seem to look more puppy-ish in a way, while all the ones that were spayed as adults obviously still look like adults. Maybe it's only MY perception, *but there have been studies that prove that*, and maybe they've jaded me.


From these statements I thought you'd seen studies that demonstrated it. I'm not saying the feelings aren't valid - just that they're different. And similar to the perception that spaying causes dogs to become overweight - while the two may be correlated because of some third factor, the spay is not in and of itself causing the obesity. 

I'm only quibbling (smack - it's fine!) because lots of people read these threads and use the information in them to make important decisions, so we need to be careful in separating facts from perceptions. 

In terms of a study, quantifying the impact of reproductive organ removal on behavior would be more difficult than studying the impact on something more easily measurable, but it could still be done. You'd just have to come up with good standards of measures, a statistically valid sample selection method, and a good control group. 

There was one survey analysis that came close to what you're suggesting and attempted to correlate some behavioral with altering but it had a lot of methodogical problems in getting to their conclusions. Given that most service and SAR bitches are altered, I'd say that's a pretty good indication that spaying does not in fact cause mental immaturity, even if the idea that it could makes intuitive sense. The evidence that it does isn't there as far as I can tell.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: OK, now that I'm calm, it's not more than what my dog eats in a week, but you know what I mean???????


I hear ya! I think a lot of people must equate food with love or something. I don't know. I look at some of these dogs waddling around and I think "how on earth can you do that to your pet? You have the power to fix this whole situation and you're not doing it."









I see a LOT of dogs (altered and unaltered) who have what I think of as the "cheetos look". Like they've been fed huge quantities of low quality food. They are always fat with dull coats and kind of lumpy looking.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I thought the studies on bone cancer and neutering were about male dogs only?









Also regarding height and spaying/neutering, from what I have read the research shows the height difference to be only 1-2 centimeters difference between dogs neutered early and those left intact.




> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> I see a LOT of dogs (altered and unaltered) who have what I think of as the "cheetos look". Like they've been fed huge quantities of low quality food. They are always fat with dull coats and kind of lumpy looking.


Check out my second reply on the other thread on male dogs for a good example of this.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*I agree with you chelle.. Nikita gets spayed on the 13th. That is exactly on her 6th month. *


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I have read an article about the benefits/risks of spaying/not spaying your dogs. I don't have the link at hand right now. I'll see if I can find it. . .


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqThe evidence that it does isn't there as far as I can tell.


Ahhhh, but * SMACK* again!









There are indeed studies that show much of this stuff, i.e. bone cancers, growth plates not closing, etc., as well as the *reports* on the psychological maturity thing.

However, just because a dog still is puppy-ish does not mean he's not fit to be an SAR dog. Point in fact is one of my previous males. He started out as a K9, and later transitioned to SAR (after being taught he didn't HAVE to bite the SAR trainer's thumb nearly clean off, requiring 60 stitches). In fact, his previous K9 work included tracking, so when he was taught to track for rescue, it was easy for him. He apparently thought it was really funny that it was supposed to be hard, and the very first full-run exercise included finding someone in the hills who feigned needing rescuing. When he found the decoy hiding behind a bush, he promptly lifted his leg and pee'd all over the bush and the guy! You should've seen the look on his face, the dog's not the guy's!

Although this particular male was intact, that was definitely an adolescent prank, but maybe it's like you said in a previous post (not in so many words) about boys being boys.

My point is that the dog need not necessarily think of SAR as a serious job, they can think it's fun. Similarly, a K9 can think that apprehending someone is fun, too.

The real point, though, is not whether or not an ALTERED dog is mature enough, remember, we're talking about altering too early, and we really don't know where the cut-off point is for "too early", at least there's really no scientific evidence that makes it a hard fact, just like some of the other reports of other side effects.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I know there are studies that deal with some of the physiological issues under discussion. I encourage everyone to read them. They're quite interesting and not as cut and dried as some of the write ups you can find online would have you believe. I'm just asking for any link to any published scientific study that ties early spaying to behavior. There may be one for all I know, just wanting the citation. 

As far as working dogs who think it's a game, yes, some may, but when you work with dogs a lot you do get to know different temperaments, some dogs are very serious some are quite immature. I don't question that most SAR dogs think the work is fun, but mentally immature? I don't think a dog like that would get very far.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineAlso regarding height and spaying/neutering, from what I have read the research shows the height difference to be only 1-2 centimeters difference between dogs neutered *early* and those left intact.


Supposedly it is that the growth plates don't close at the "right" time, but a related and serious issue with a longer bone is not just aesthetics, there is a physiological issue in that if the bone is longer than it's supposed to be, then soft tissue like ligaments (cruciates) that rely on the bone length is under more stress because they stop growing before the "speutered-to-early dog's" bones do, which can result in ligament damage, which has also been "scientifically" studied with supposedly detrimental findings in some cases.

But, the key, as you mentioned above, and I so graciously bolded







, is that it's because of "too early" speutering, not from speutering in and of itself.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Have you read that paper? It's very interesting.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Hey, wait a minute, you guys! Aren't you supposed to be posting pics on this thread? Hmmm, I vote that you have to post a pic to be eligible to post a comment/opinion/suggestion.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I posted 4!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq...but mentally immature? I don't think a dog like that would get very far.


Wait, I'm not so sure the author meant it quite that way. When I read the report, it was something more to the effect that they retained "more of a puppy-like behavior" (not direct quote, but more along those lines). The report did not describe that it meant ALL pupply-like behaviors, nor did it say under all circumstances. It was a bit ambiguous, but "planted the seed" nonetheless. And, I personally think that that could very well be something that happens. Does it happen all the time? Probably to some extent in dogs speutered TOO EARLY. But, again, when is TOO EARLY?

Anyway, let's get back on track on this thread and not sweat the little stuff, shall we? I mean, I wasn't asking for this type of material in my OP. In fact, I didn't qualify much of anything. I didn't say WHY I asked for the pics and stats, because I didn't want this to turn into the thread it's turned into... a duplicate of many, many other discussions on the speuter topic. I just want to see pics and hear stats of when the dog was spayed and when the pic was taken. No offense, but we can discuss all this other controversial stuff on another thread, if someone wants to start one.

I just want pics! WAAAAAHHHH!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

you kind of opened the door when you stated your conclusions about not spaying until later and referenced the studies.









Seriously though - if this is a topic that interests you, you should read the primary lit if you haven't already. Very interesting stuff.

Back to the pictures!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

A link with information about early spay/neutering: http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

And, because I'm still off topic and should get back ON topic, another picture of Risa.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Pics to stay on topic? Oh...my fav. thing to do! 


Ava....in the fall....finally filling out and looking like a big girl...just a few months after turning 2 :










Mya...my very active...non incontinent...nonleggy...perfect weight senior....


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

There is no better word to describe Ava, other than PRETTY!

She also wears her disposition quite openly in her face. I bet she is just THE lover, isn't she? How "warm" she appears to be.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Wow....You have pegged her EXACTLY! Loves everyone...full of kisses...very sweet and gentle and cuddly..still tries to sit in my lap...can't get close enough and is quite the wiggle butt. Not a mean bone in that little body.









You are quite discerning....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Nike at 28 months not spayed:









Nike at 8 plus in a terrible stack done by a friend She was spayed at 6.5 after having 2 litters.


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

Ahhh this is the article I was looking for: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

MrLeadFoot, you had asked originally if we have had any regrets about spaying our girls. I never answered that question, and so far, I'm the only one whose dog developed problems due to spaying (incontinence).

I had never heard of spay incontinence until the diagnosis, and felt horrible that I caused this issue by my decision to have her spayed. Being a big believer in spaying pet dogs, I did some soul-searching in trying to decide if I would have gone ahead and spayed my female even if I had known that she had the chance of developing this problem. The answer I came up with surprised me. The answer was yes. Not putting her through an unwanted pregnancy was more of an issue for me. Not wanting to risk her health through a whelping was more important to me than having to occasionally wash her blankets. Not wanting to contribute to the pet overpopulation was a greater priority. The inconvenience of cleaning up after her here and there turned out to be minor. And just about non-existent now that her diet keeps her incontinence under check. 

At the time that I adopted my girl, I never thought that I would ever choose to have a second dog - but things change, people change, my goals changed. So now I have an intact male in the house, and I am glad that my girl is spayed, and thus takes away a big worry. 

I don't feel that spaying her has negatively impacted her quality of life in any way - if anything, it has improved it, as she can have more freedom in the house at all times in company of my other dog.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

May I ask what you've done to "curb" that incontinence?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Nike is a very nice looking dog!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootMay I ask what you've done to "curb" that incontinence?


Switched from kibble to a raw diet. 

That was it. Simple.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you.

I forgot to answer your question. No, I have no regrets. I have done most of my females at older ages, though a couple were done ealier (18 months to 2 years) and have not had any issues because of it. I have never spayed one when she was still a baby.


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