# Would you buy a puppy with this kind of health guarantee...



## mikeb316 (Apr 7, 2014)

The health and temperament of this dog is excellent to the best of our knowledge and belief at the time of sale. The required vaccinations and worming are as indicated on the health record below, attached, or sent with dog. However, we advise the Buyer to have the dog examined by licensed veterinarian of Buyers choice within 48 hours after receipt of the dog. We recommend you take a stool sample. If the veterinarian finds the dog to be in poor health, the dog must be returned immediately within 48 hours with the veterinarian examination records. The returned puppy will be replaced with a puppy of equal value as soon as possible. The return of the dog will be totally at the expense of Buyer, unless other arrangements are mutually agreed upon in writing between both parties. Failure to see a veterinarian within 48 hours will void all guarantees.

If this dog develops crippling hip dysplasia at anytime from purchase to one year of age (confirmed by x-rays from a competent licensed veterinarian or the orthopedic foundation for animals), the dog should be returned to us at the expense of the buyer. We will replace the dog (due to crippling dysplasia) as soon as possible with a replacement of equal value to the dog at the time of original purchase. We reserve the right to request that the x-rays be sent to us first for review to a board-certified Veterinary Radiologist or other veterinarian of our choice. Should the Buyer prefer to retain the said dog, the Buyer thereby forfeits any replacement, unless other arrangements are mutually agreed upon in an written amendment signed by both parties. In the event the buyer is unable to care for this puppy due to unforeseen circumstances, the seller has the first right of refusal to take the puppy back and / or place the puppy in an appropriate home . Sale of the puppy will result in partial proceeds to the buyer to be determined by seller .

No further guarantee is made. All sales are final and deposits are non-refundable.


This sounds like crap. My male didn't get diagnosed with EPI til he was almost 3. Plus dogs show no signs of hip problems before 1 yr unless they are really bad off.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I wouldn't buy from this seller. One year on the hips is not enough. There is a reason why OFA is done at 2+ years. Some breeders gives much better guarantees than this. I have seen up to 3 yrs on genetic disorders.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Everything sounds pretty standard to me. If you're worried about hips, you can do OFA prelims as young as 4 months. I'm not seeing any red flags.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Agree with Lucy Dog.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I would keep looking. 1 year is not enough. And it's only crippling dysplasia. Which is horrible. And you have to return the dog, that you have loved for a year. 

I hate that in a contract. It is, IMHO, an easy way for a breeder to never have to honor their guarantee. Most people don't want to give back their dog, so they don't. And the breeder is in the clear. It's shady. 


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I like this much better.

http://sequoyah-german-shepherds.com/warrantee.htm


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

As your typical pet home, i can care less what the guarantee says. I'm not returning the puppy because of hip or any other genetic issues and I probably wouldn't want another one from that breeder if the first one did have issues. I go with a breeder and the dogs I'm comfortable with and hope I made the right decision. The "guarantee" makes the buyer feel all warm and fuzzy inside and that's about all they're good for. At least in my opinion.

In a real life working home where the dog has a specific job, that's a different story. That's where a guarantee actually has some importance.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> And you have to return the dog, that you have loved for a year.


That's exactly why breeders use this kind of guarantee. Nobody would buy a working or show dog from a breeder with a one year hip guarantee, and nobody will give up their pet for a replacement, so the guarantee is essentially meaningless.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> As your typical pet home, i can care less what the guarantee says. I'm not returning the puppy because of hip or any other genetic issues and I probably wouldn't want another one from that breeder if the first one did have issues. I go with a breeder and the dogs I'm comfortable with and hope I made the right decision. The "guarantee" makes the buyer feel all warm and fuzzy inside and that's about all they're good for. At least in my opinion.
> 
> In a real life working home where the dog has a specific job, that's a different story. That's where a guarantee actually has some importance.



Agreed. I could not have cared less about a "guarantee".


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Nope would not go with that breeder. I have a sport dog with a lot of money invested into him. Even the best breeders will produce a dog with HD eventually, but if that were the case I want a REPLACEMENT, not to have to return my dog. 

As well final OFAs can not be done until 2 years old. My breeder required preliminary radiographs at 1 year old but had no limit on the overall guarantee.

People should care about contract guarantees! Breeders usually put such tight restrictions on their contracts because they're producing dogs with the defects. Like 1 breeder contract I saw did not guarantee against mild HD because in their words "it does not affect the dog". I guarantee you that breeder does not guarantee against mild dysplasia because she is repeatedly producing dogs with mild dysplasia.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> As your typical pet home, i can care less what the guarantee says. I'm not returning the puppy because of hip or any other genetic issues and I probably wouldn't want another one from that breeder if the first one did have issues. I go with a breeder and the dogs I'm comfortable with and hope I made the right decision. The "guarantee" makes the buyer feel all warm and fuzzy inside and that's about all they're good for. At least in my opinion.
> 
> In a real life working home where the dog has a specific job, that's a different story. That's where a guarantee actually has some importance.


If you're spending money on a dog don't you want a decent dog, pet home or not? Poor breeders have bad contracts to protect themselves when they produce unhealthy dogs.

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## Tattersail (Feb 5, 2014)

I agree with everyone else here... Our contract with our breeder is 2 1/2 years on moderate to severe elbow or hip dysplasia as well as a 3 year on congenital defects. Refund or replacement (normally depending on the condition and if/how much it would effect longevity) would be issued. Along with a long list of other stuff in there, there's even a provision for temperament guarantee which from what I've read is quite rare.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Yeah. 

I had a dog with severe hip dysplasia. I never want to experience that again if I can help it. It was not fun to watch her go through every day with hips that weren't working. She was in pain, she struggled to get up and move. Joint diets and supplements only did so much for her. Pain meds generally upset her stomach and we couldn't keep her on anything long term outside of tramadol and gabapentin. She required surgery on one of her hips to basically give her the last three years of her life. 

I loved that dog with all my heart because she was one of a kind and she was my girl who never gave up and never gave in if I asked her to stay at my side. 

Which is exactly why I never want to live through that again. I want to see breeders who are confident enough about their lines that they can guarantee their hips for more than merely a year. I knew at 2 months my girl was going to have issues with her hips. 

All three of my dogs have good structure and confirmation, and I am pretty adamant that any dog I have from here on out clears for different genetic disorders. They are costly both for your pocket book and your emotions. Kenai's health was always a battle, even if she had the best temperament I could have ever wished for. I can't go through all of that again, pet dog or otherwise. 

To me that guarantee means that they are confident their dogs produce dogs who are structurally sound and healthy. And while that isn't everything about a dog, it is in my opinion a very important aspect of any pet, working or otherwise. It is hard to see dogs in pain because of genetics and know what lies in store for that animal and family down the road. Just my humble opinion, but I do think the guarantee should be looked at for what it means on the dog and their dogs as a whole, not merely that you can exchange the dog. How confident are they about that guarantee? Only a year or so? Or longer than that? It definitely is something that affects my decisions.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

*mikeb316:* Check your PM


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## Romany (Apr 22, 2014)

eddie1976E said:


> I like this much better.
> 
> http://sequoyah-german-shepherds.co... link thanks,I think there warrantee is fair.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've said this before, guarantees don't mean much to me. You can't "guarantee" or "warranty" a puppy.

I look for a breeder who does all those health testings, whats behind the dogs, what the dogs are producing health (and temperament wise). 

So what if you get a guarantee for 2 yrs+ - and the dog ends up with HD? or something else? Are you going to return that dog if specified? Or keep it and get a replacement where the returned dog is most likely put down? (most don't want a replacement they want to keep the dog they've fallen in love with) and with that comes medical expenses. The breeder is not going to pay your medical bills. 

We (general we) never know what's going to happen down the road when buying a puppy. Contracts are nice, but in the end, finding a good breeder with good healthy dogs stacks the deck.

To the OP: the requirements you put forth, are pretty standard I would say, however, contract alone is just a piece of paper, and I'd rather be confident in the breeder themselves..


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I agree with those that say its more about the breeder and weather you trust them, what they have produced in the past, their lines, etc. All that makes perfect sense. We know that even the best breeders, with the most titled, dogs, best health screening, can produce HD dogs. It happens. The question is, do you want to rely on their word that they will do the right thing for you, or do you want a contract that spells out what they will do? 

I prefer having the document AND all the other qualities that make a breeder "good". Hopefully you will never have an issue with the dog, but if you do, it is nice to have a legal leg to stand on if the breeder decides to not do the right thing.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I would never buy a pup without seeing hip & elbow OFA's of the parents but more importantly the grandparents and further. 

I have a contract but honestly he's my dog, my responsibility. If a health issue did arise I would tell my breeder so she knew, she would want to know. But I don't expect any compensation & he's not being returned & I don't want another puppy. The health guarantee means nothing to me.

These are living beings, crap happens. Do your homework. Trust the breeder. If you blindly hand over money without researching and solely rely on a contract, your on your own.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Negotiate the guarantee if you like. The ones I have experience with give you two years on hips and a clause of "at least (I forget which rating)". So it is specific on the hips. "Crippling" is rather subjective. 
I know that the return clause is usually in guarantees but I also know that is not always followed through with. I think it is there to prevent unscrupulous people from breeding a dog with bad hips. You could probably negotiate the clause to be return or proof of neuter.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

I dug through a bunch of Google search results for GSD breeder hip guarantees. The terms vary quite wildly. Some breeders even go as far as to state if your dog's hips fail to certify and you refuse to surrender it and accept a replacement, you must surrender your AKC registration papers and provide proof of spay/neuter! Most breeders make it very clear they will not provide any kind of refund for any health defect beyond the first few days of ownership. Many breeders require the owner to surrender the first dog, which makes the guarantee completely worthless to most buyers. The most generous terms usually offer the option of either a second puppy without surrendering the first or a refund of half the purchase price to cover medical costs on proof of spay/neuter. Reading around the forum, it seems like a lot of better breeders stand by their dogs enough to offer that kind of thing privately even if it's not actually explicitly stated in their agreement.


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## Tattersail (Feb 5, 2014)

Bob_McBob said:


> I dug through a bunch of Google search results for GSD breeder hip guarantees. The terms vary quite wildly. Some breeders even go as far as to state if your dog's hips fail to certify and you refuse to surrender it and accept a replacement, you must surrender your AKC registration papers and provide proof of spay/neuter! Most breeders make it very clear they will not provide any kind of refund for any health defect beyond the first few days of ownership. Many breeders require the owner to surrender the first dog, which makes the guarantee completely worthless to most buyers. The most generous terms usually offer the option of either a second puppy without surrendering the first or a refund of half the purchase price to cover medical costs on proof of spay/neuter. Reading around the forum, it seems like a lot of better breeders stand by their dogs enough to offer that kind of thing privately even if it's not actually explicitly stated in their agreement.


Hmm all breeders we were looking at (both GSD and Shilohs) had about the same terms when it came to hips (2 1/2-3yrs), and there was not a surrender clause, although there was a replacement/refund clause. Good breeders who know their stock aren't afraid to stand behind their dogs, and that shows in their warranties, at least from what I've seen.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

Tattersail said:


> Hmm all breeders we were looking at (both GSD and Shilohs) had about the same terms when it came to hips (2 1/2-3yrs), and there was not a surrender clause, although there was a replacement/refund clause. Good breeders who know their stock aren't afraid to stand behind their dogs, and that shows in their warranties, at least from what I've seen.


That's the point I was trying to make. Good breeders offer reasonable hip guarantee terms and are willing to stand behind their dogs in a meaningful way. Judging by Google results they are a significant minority, which isn't terribly surprising.


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## mikeb316 (Apr 7, 2014)

Thanks guys appreciate all of yalls help and insight. :toasting:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've bought two puppies with no guarantee/warranty. If I really like the dog I will buy it, if not even the best guarantee in the world won't convince me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I've bought two puppies with no guarantee/warranty. If I really like the dog I will buy it, if not even the best guarantee in the world won't convince me.


Exactly. I don't care what the guarantee is. "Guarantee's" are an American thing. European breeders don't offer them.

Bottom line is do your homework. Use the OFA site and look up progeny of the dogs, the dogs themselves. Research the lines. Ask the breeders questions. If you are then comfortable with all the answers, get a puppy! 

And decide if a guarantee is something you would even use! Personally, I think people put way to much emphasis on the guarantee and don't research the health of the lines, just assume because there is a guarantee that it's all good. In the end, the buyer is ultimately responsible for the dog so...do...your....research.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Colie CVT I was about to make a similar post to yours. 

My oldest girl has severe HD, she had one hip replaced at 4 years old adn I sure wish we had done the other one. She is 11.5 now and cannot take NSAIDs. We do supplements, HA injections and Adequan. We added Tramadol this past month. It is hard to watch her get and walk, I think she lives in constant pain adn we are trying to insure it is tolerable. I too love her to pieces, I call her my heart dog. 

Reading the guarantee she came with, one would think I should have gotten something. I guess if I had fought harder and then returned her I could have another pup. But at 14 months of age, she was our baby and was not going anywhere. I never got a dime, I never got another pup. 

Mayhem has no written contract or guarantee. She is also the healthiest GSD I have ever purchased. Her breeder states on her webpage that she will do a written contract with guarnatees if the buyer wants one but feels they are not really needed. She will deal with you honestly and do the right thing. I have seen this in action as she is also my friend. 

I think if your dog was a business prospect or you were a world class competitor and the dog had to be healthy in every regard, you would return the dog. For most of us that are considered pet homes (even tho I do performance sports with my dogs I still consider myself a pet home) we would keep the dog as it had value to us other than a competition prospect. This is not meant to mean that for those competitors who return a dog based on health that the dog had no other value to them. I think they are able to put that emotional value aside easier than I could. 

I have come to the conclusion that most health guarantees are not worth the paper they are written on. They are a feel good only. Even 5 years ago I would never have said that, and would never have bought a puppy without one. I guess we can change.  Mayhem's breeder is also the only breeder I have purchased a puppy from that I would go back again.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My breeder gave me an over-all soundness guarantee which involved the potential for refund, not replacement as she does not breed enough litters to be able to produce that replacement quickly. Her only stipulation was no neuter until 2.

But honestly I do not expect a guarantee. I expect a top notch breeding program with all efforts made to produce the best dog possible. And that means a lot more than just hips. Even the good ones can have a bad outcome. They are not widgets made using a 6 sigma quality assurance program but complex animals. 

That expectation has evolved over time. The one in the first post really does not look any worse than most, plus it allows you to modify it per agreement. And, yes, I had a dog with severe HD and decided I did not want a replacement from the breeder who would have allowed me to keep the pup. I had other concerns about her breeding program by that point but the litter ZW was 78...and both parents were A-normal.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

eddie1976E said:


> I like this much better.
> 
> Warranty


"Hip or elbow dysplasia, as evaluated and defined by OFA at or after two years of age, or as evaluated/defined by PennHip (scores less than 0.42) at or after six months of age."

I think they meant greater than 0.42. 0 is perfect. 1 is horribly and completely out of the socket.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Farley said:


> Tommy:
> Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting. Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside... Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter. The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times. Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of ****. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.


Guarantee's are to assure buyers of quality in the product. With dogs, there is no guarantee. You can only stack the deck best in your favor (strong hips in pedigree, strong working ability in pedigree, etc). Still, every time you get a dog, you are rolling the dice.


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

eddie1976E said:


> I like this much better.
> 
> Warranty


This is pretty much the only useful kind of warranty or guarantee. You can do all your homework and research bloodlines and OFA results, but for most people the only thing that matters is some kind of financial assistance with future medical costs if a dog develops HD or another crippling congenital problem. It's kind of neat that the breeder actually provides a small financial incentive to title their puppies, too. A good guarantee still really doesn't mean that much about the quality of the breeder though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not to me, I would feel REALLY weird about asking someone else to help cover my dogs' medical cost, even the breeder. If I can't afford this breed, I just don't get the puppy. I'm already statistically overdue for a GSD with something like HD and I'm prepared to deal with it. If I insist on never paying for a congenital problem, I'd buy a dog that was already screened for such problems.

I agree that a good guarantee doesn't always speak to the quality of the breeder. Many great breeders have no generic written guarantee. Either there is none, or they are an ethical person and work things out as they happen.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Rorie threw up on her guarantee and then ate it...but since I have owned her and reading this thread I just feel that a lot goes into raising a dog and when I get another one I want to get a dog that I really want -that's special-so if I was looking at a replacement the breeder might not actually be breeding something I want....


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

I have purchased three German Shepherds from two different breeders in Germany, and they did not come with any guarantees. European breeders don't give guarantees to living creatures. However, their breeding requirements are much stricter,and the parents must pass health tests before breeding. 

Of those three dogs, one was perfectly healthy with no hip problems whatsoever up until 12.5 years old, when she developed osteosarcoma. With surgery, she lived another year. She hopped around pretty well on her other three good legs. One developed arthritis issues in his old age, treated with supplements and Adequan. One now at 9 years old has a thickened knee, so we're treating that with supplements, and I'm considering more Adequan. But none of them had any issues when they were young, so the guarantee would not have helped.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> I would keep looking. 1 year is not enough. And it's only crippling dysplasia. Which is horrible. *And you have to return the dog, that you have loved for a year. *
> 
> *I hate that in a contract. It is, IMHO, an easy way for a breeder to never have to honor their guarantee. Most people don't want to give back their dog, so they don't. And the breeder is in the clear. It's shady.*


I went through this and I agree with you!

I will NOT go through a breeder who has that in their contract again.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If American breeders gave a "discount" for not taking a guarantee I wouldn't take it. So if the guarantee was technically an extra fee on top of the pup and not just included in the price, I'd pay less money and walk away without the guarantee. I figure that even if they do provide a replacement puppy...I might not be ready for a second dog, or maybe I don't want one from their lines anymore so why even bother?

Sure...a money back clause I'd take, but that's never offered so who cares.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Do you know why most breeders give replacements and not money back? It is because breeding is an expensive venture, and there is seldom any money left to return after the expenses are paid. I never required the return of the dog with problems, but I did require a signed vet note saying the first dog had been spayed/neutered.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

I bought mine with no guarantee


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

I've bred litters and I also guarantee hips/elbows, DM, genetic disease, etc. 
My guarantee states that if the puppy has any of these problems that we will replace the puppy as soon as possible. 
I've only ever had one puppy who had a genetic defect. The owners did not want a new puppy, but asked if I could help cover the vet cost for dealing with the problem. After I agreed they later asked for a full refund. 
Although my warranty did not state that I was responsible in any way to help the owners, I knew that the puppy was a result of my breeding and if they were going to keep and love him I wanted to help them any way I could. Being a responsible breeder I did refund them their money.
So it doesn't all depend on what the contract states. It also depends on the morals of the breeder!



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