# What titles make a dog breedworthy?



## glowingtoadfly

In another thread, a discussion came up about the CGC and HIC, and how they do or do not make a dog breedworthy. I would like to hear people's opinions on what titles do and do not make a dog worthy of the breed.


----------



## onyx'girl

I don't think any title alone makes a dog breedworthy. It is the total dog and the genetics behind it. The titles prove the dogs workability and temperament, but I'd never breed a dog based on the titles earned... If the handler or owner puts time and effort into titling the dog it doesn't make it 'better' than one that hasn't had those opportunities. That said~ titles are worthy of course, just shouldn't be the focus of a breeding program.
CGC isn't a title IMO....it is a certificate of passing a good citizen test/same goes for the HIT, just a cert, not a title.
Though of course AKC recognizes the CGC as a title. BH shouldn't be considered a title either, it is a stepping stone to moving on to earn titles.


----------



## DaniFani

Imo it isn't about the titles as much as it is the work done to get the titles and honest evaluations of the dog for breed worthy attributes seen during the process of achieving a title. I know plenty of dogs with titles that shouldn't be bred. Lots of breeders buying titled dogs for the marketability of the title, when they know little themselves about the dogs or what "great" looks like, because they aren't working the dogs themselves. When I was talking to breeders my first question was, "are you working and titling your dog's?" If not, I moved on. I don't believe you can make many claims about your breeding stock if you aren't working it. Just mho. After I asked that question, I'd want to have someone I trust with me evaluating the sire and dam. My guy came from out of country, so had people my TD trusts (who I trust greatly) check everything out for me.


----------



## shepherdmom

Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.


----------



## onyx'girl

shepherdmom said:


> Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.


Because a dog that has IPO titles will be a natural biter? Dogs with IPO titles can also have SAR or Therapy titles...a well rounded GSD can do most anything. I'd personally never really look at a breeder that has CGC's as their brag..especially if that dog earned it before it was mature. 
Look at the total program, what the breeder is producing, not at the individual title.

I'd never buy from a breeder that is sending dogs away for titles either.

Unless you really know what goes into titling a dog legitimately for IPO, you shouldn't shy away from a breeder that is actually training and titling their dogs in the sport.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

shepherdmom said:


> Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.


BYBs take note! Your customer base has spoken!


----------



## robk

shepherdmom said:


> Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.


This statement is based on an opinion formed from incomplete information. My male is bite trained but also has rock solid character that has been revealed to me through the testing that comes with IPO training. I would trust him off leash walking through a mall full of screaming children.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

I would want to see some type of stress-inducing sports title - like IPO, French Ring, Etc. - to prove the dog has courage, drive and the ability to turn it on AND off.

I would want to see some type of physical title - agility, lure coursing, weight pulling, etc. - to prove the dog has physical aptitude/endurance.

I also like titles that prove the dog can work WITH the handler - agility is great for that.

Herding titles are good because they prove the dog has the natural instincts the GSD was breed to have.

Nose work titles proves the dog has brains.


----------



## Merciel

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think any title alone makes a dog breedworthy.


yep

Pongu's got buckets of titles. He's a terrible dog. He should never be bred (and, happily, never will be, since he got snipped when he was four months old. The shelter got that much right about him). 

My dog is living proof of the fact that if you dump enough time and money and effort into the project, you can stick some pretty impressive titles on a complete nutbag of a dog. And I _earned_ those titles fair and square -- we are not talking about "midnight trials" or purchased titles here. Throw those into the equation, and titles on paper tell you even less.

On the other hand, if you can see and evaluate a dog in person, and if you know what you are looking for, you may not need titles at all. I met Nymeria vom Wildhaus and her owner at an obedience trial today. I had, and have, no idea what titles Nymeria has. Maybe she doesn't have any; I didn't ask. But she's a _great_ dog. In terms of intelligence and temperament, she is my ideal dog. I could tell that within two minutes of just seeing her in the trial environment.

The real value of titles is just that if the owner/breeder put those on the dog, then you can infer that the owner/breeder has worked with that dog and knows the dog's strengths and weaknesses really, really well. And if the dog has been on the circuit for a while, then other people (people who train at the same club, judges, and other competitors in the same sport) have also seen that dog, and you might be able to get outside feedback about whether that dog really is good.

If the dog has _nothing,_ then that tells you something too, and what it tells me is "I don't want one of those dogs."


----------



## LoveEcho

shepherdmom said:


> Depends on if you are breeding a working dog or a show dog and who you want to buy your pups. As a pet owner, titles mean very little to me. I want health guarantees and a good temperament. I'm going to rate a good citizenship title far higher than I would a Schutzhund or show one. I know breeders and Schutzhund/show people will jump on me but that is the truth. In fact I'm going to avoid Schutzhund titles at all costs. I don't want a high energy dog willing to bite. Nope, I'm going to rate SAR or Therapy dog certifications far higher than I would a title.


Echo has his CGC and he's insane, a horrible example of temperament. CGC doesn't mean squat beyond that the dog was able to perform basic obedience... it says nothing about the stability of the dog. 

Just because a dog does well in IPO doesn't mean they're high energy and prone to bite. In fact, many dogs who succeed in the sport are the opposite and very balanced- exactly what the sport was supposed to demonstrate.

A particular title or another doesn't mean much to me- I'm looking for dogs who can be pets AND work. The whole package gets taken into consideration and is what is important.


----------



## Sabis mom

As far as German Shepherds go they are a working breed so the first test of breeding quality should be working ability. If they have no ability to work they have no business being bred. Herding or bite sports are fine but I would disregard CGC as a title. I didn't get a German Shepherd because I wanted a dog that was great with strangers, and it does not test temperament it tests behavior, learned behavior. Similarly I dislike GSD breeders who place emphasis on confirmation titles. Form follows function, if the dog can work continuously without coming up lame it is properly put together, whether or not it has correct markings or perfect ears. A breeder who tells me they don't breed for bitework is one I would run from, because the guardian instinct, the unstoppable courage in the face of a threat is what a German Shepherd is. 

I will say that I work largely with poorly bred shepherds and ones with sad to horrific pasts. I believe every dog has the right to a person who thinks they are the best dog in the world, and I have proven beyond a doubt that a great dog is a great dog regardless of pedigree. Sabi saved my life not once but twice while working and I have no clue who her parents were. She was not for breeding but was none the less a terrific example of character.


----------



## DaniFani

Agree with everything Lauri said about the different titles I would look for and why. Then after the titles, I would ask my questions about how/who earned them with the dogs. 

Lol @ Blitz. Shepherdmom, I think it's sad you haven't seen what a true stable working line brings to the table. Jane's dog's sire was a police k9 that later became a therapy dog (correct me if I'm wrong there Jane or I'm thinking of someone else). Your opinion is just as wrong as mine would be if I said all Showline were nerve bags that could never protect their owners, because I've had a Showline and that's what he was. I don't care when you speak of all your experience with a few good Showline, I just hate that you spew "knowledge" about what schh titles dogs produce. You don't have experience to make such a generalized statement like that.


----------



## Packen

If only looking at titles then IPO3 HOT is what I would look for. It filters away bought titles (sorry SL people) and narrows the field down to top 5% or so.


----------



## onyx'girl

Merciel said:


> yep
> 
> Pongu's got buckets of titles. He's a terrible dog. He should never be bred (and, happily, never will be, since he got snipped when he was four months old. The shelter got that much right about him).
> 
> My dog is living proof of the fact that if you dump enough time and money and effort into the project, you can stick some pretty impressive titles on a complete nutbag of a dog. And I _earned_ those titles fair and square -- we are not talking about "midnight trials" or purchased titles here. Throw those into the equation, and titles on paper tell you even less.
> 
> On the other hand, if you can see and evaluate a dog in person, and if you know what you are looking for, you may not need titles at all. *I met Nymeria vom Wildhaus and her owner at an obedience trial today. I had, and have, no idea what titles Nymeria has. Maybe she doesn't have any; I didn't ask. But she's a great dog. In terms of intelligence and temperament, she is my ideal dog. I could tell that within two minutes of just seeing her in the trial environment.
> *
> The real value of titles is just that if the owner/breeder put those on the dog, then you can infer that the owner/breeder has worked with that dog and knows the dog's strengths and weaknesses really, really well. And if the dog has been on the circuit for a while, then other people (people who train at the same club, judges, and other competitors in the same sport) have also seen that dog, and you might be able to get outside feedback about whether that dog really is good.
> 
> If the dog has _nothing,_ then that tells you something too, and what it tells me is "I don't want one of those dogs."


Awwww...you were able to meet Shadow? The N's are still very young(not yet a yr old) so I doubt she has any titles....yet! 
But just wait.....So far what I've seen of the N litter, they are coming along very well!


----------



## Bequavious

DaniFani said:


> Lol @ Blitz. Shepherdmom, I think it's sad you haven't seen what a true stable working line brings to the table. Jane's dog's sire was a police k9 that later became a therapy dog (correct me if I'm wrong there Jane or I'm thinking of someone else). Your opinion is just as wrong as mine would be if I said all Showline were nerve bags that could never protect their owners, because I've had a Showline and that's what he was. I don't care when you speak of all your experience with a few good Showline, I just hate that you spew "knowledge" about what schh titles dogs produce. You don't have experience to make such a generalized statement like that.


While I don't agree that good working dogs can't make great pets, I will say that every working dog I've met (most are SAR dogs, though I knew a couple IPO pups) had a touch of crazy that a pet owner may not want to work through. And honestly if you're not going to work your dog in some way, it's probably a good idea to look for lower drive and lower energy. There's a reason you can find good working dogs in shelters.


----------



## onyx'girl

And most well bred litters will have a pup with pet potential tossed in the mix. If the dog is well bred, it will have an off switch and be fairly balanced...being 'just a pet' in an active home will be fine for many GSD's. 
We should remember, this breed isn't meant to be a couch potato, they are bred for working, not lounging around.


----------



## shepherdmom

LoveEcho said:


> A particular title or another doesn't mean much to me- I'm looking for dogs who can be pets AND work. The whole package gets taken into consideration and is what is important.


:thumbup: What the person who wants to buy a dog is looking for. Some people are looking for working ability, some people are looking for show, many are looking for family pets. But whatever they are looking for they are going to have different requirements... So back to what I said it depends upon what buyers you are looking for. 



> Your opinion is just as wrong as mine would be if I said all Showline were nerve bags that could never protect their owners, because I've had a Showline and that's what he was. I don't care when you speak of all your experience with a few good Showline, I just hate that you spew "knowledge" about what schh titles dogs produce. You don't have experience to make such a generalized statement like that.


How can an opinion be wrong? I've only had one showline. I've had 3 czech working lines and a variety of IDK what the heck lines. That is my choice. I clearly stated it depended on who OP wants to buy his pups and I told what I would look for... Isn't my opinion as valid as yours? You like Schutzhund dogs.. Great good for you if he OP is looking to have those type of dogs I'm sure he will take your opinion under advisement. 



> BYBs take note! Your customer base has spoken!




Do you consider White Shepherd breeders BYB? How about oversize? I'm sure your definition and my definition of BYB does not match. I think good health and good temperament are far more important than anything else.


----------



## shepherdmom

Bequavious said:


> And honestly if you're not going to work your dog in some way, it's probably a good idea to look for lower drive and lower energy. There's a reason you can find good working dogs in shelters.


Exactly... Thank you!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

shepherdmom said:


> :thumbup:
> Do you consider White Shepherd breeders BYB? How about oversize? I'm sure your definition and my definition of BYB does not match. I think good health and good temperament are far more important than anything else.


Why yes_ I do!_ Anything less then breeding for workability and health in that order is a fail. Especially for color or size. However, I understand that many just want to pretend they own a GSD because the real deal is just to much. Enter the shilohs, whites, kings etc etc.


----------



## Saphire

Bequavious said:


> While I don't agree that good working dogs can't make great pets, I will say that every working dog I've met (most are SAR dogs, though I knew a couple IPO pups) had a touch of crazy that a pet owner may not want to work through. And honestly if you're not going to work your dog in some way, it's probably a good idea to look for lower drive and lower energy. There's a reason you can find good working dogs in shelters.


I have had the pleasure of meeting several working line GSD's, all of which would do just fine in an active pet home. "Active"should be every GSD home regardless of what line.

My dog is working line and is very well adjusted, would have no problems with living in a pet home.


----------



## Liesje

Depends on a person's idea of a "pet". I know some people who I would recommend good working line breeders to an other people who I wouldn't trust to keep a house plant. So, I don't really use "would the dog make a good pet" as a generalization because many people shouldn't own dogs, period.


----------



## Thayna

I see the accomplishment of titles whether they be Sch herding obedience 
sar agility to be indications of whether a dog has the ability to work and be a partner. OFA of hips and elbows haven't been mentioned but they have to enter into the evaluation. I haven't included conformation titles because this is a working dog we are talking about. Not all working dogs are hyper active and not all showlines are couch potatoes. I don't believe that all titled dogs should be bred but I do believe that all GSD that are bred should be able to perform a job outside of your own backyard and titles are one of the main forms of evaluations we have.
Avoiding Sch dogs to me is shortsighted all dogs bite I always considered sch dogs as knowing when NOT to bite like having a safety on a gun. If we want to maintain our breed we must breed to maintain that working ability.


----------



## GrammaD

> How can an opinion be wrong?


In my opinion, you are wrong. (you see what I did there?)


Working breed = the dog should be capable of work. A CGC tells you squat. Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to the core to get a CGC with my nervy boy and I applaud everyone who gets one. But as far as a breed test? Worthless. Even the new(ish) Community Canine doesn't say anything about breed worthiness. 

If your standards are so low that a "test" of very basic obedience and stability in a controlled setting while on lead are sufficient to determine a dog is worthy of breeding, you're not doing anything to even maintain the breed, or support practices that do, much less improve it.




> And most well bred litters will have a pup with pet potential tossed in the mix. If the dog is well bred, it will have an off switch and be fairly balanced...being 'just a pet' in an active home will be fine for many GSD's.


I have a wee girl laying by my feet right now who has lots of performance potential  But she is also "just a pet" in the sense that she is family companion first and everything else is icing on the rather adorable little slice of cutiecake she is


----------



## Sabis mom

I have no issues with working lines as pets, in the right home. I like a bit of drive and a touch of crazy. It's the independent thing I have difficulty with.


----------



## sitstay

onyx'girl said:


> CGC isn't a title IMO....it is a certificate of passing a good citizen test/same goes for the HIT, just a cert, not a title.
> Though of course AKC recognizes the CGC as a title.


Yes! I lose interest in talking with people when they start talking about the HIT being a title. No, it isn't. It just means that the dog showed enough interest to have the potential to herd. As someone who had my dog tested and then followed through with training and trialing, there is a huge difference between that evaluation/test for the potential and actually training and trialing where you put that potential to the test under pressure.

And as far as the CGC goes? The difference between it being a certificate and a title is how much money you pay. That makes it, in every sense of the term, a title you can simply purchase and not actually earn. 

I want to see breeding dogs out there doing something, and being evaluated for that something by some objective person. Obedience (not sure if I would include RN as proof of breed-worthiness; I can't seem to make up my mind on that). Herding (and AKC isn't the only game in town for herding). Agility. Conformation. IPO. Ring sport. True work (and not just sport activities). Something. There are so many dog sports available these days. It someone wanted to prove their dog, they can find something interesting to do it in.

That is all just a jumping off point for me. I want to see health testing and I want to see a real understanding of the breed and not just a parroting of a few lines in some book. I want to hear the breeder talk about the various bloodlines and what they bring to the table, and not just mentioning the "Name du Jour" as often as possible. I want to see that they have the entire picture in mind, and not just a little corner of it (color or drive or some other trait to the exclusion of all else).

Titles are only a small piece of that over all picture. And I wouldn't hesitate to get a puppy from untitled parents if other things made up for that lack. But I would want to hear sound reasoning from the breeder and not excuses about that lack.
Sheilah


----------



## onyx'girl

Sabis mom said:


> I have no issues with working lines as pets, in the right home. I like a bit of drive and a touch of crazy. *It's the independent thing I have difficulty with*.


Not sure I understand this? My WL is not independent... he is very biddable/handler sensitive with high pack drive. He wants to be where we are. 
He takes direction well and can do things on his own when asked, but doesn't wander off to do his own thing hardly ever. Though he is aloof with people he has no relationship to.

My mixed bag of lines, however is not biddable, and acts a bit defiant. No recall whatsoever. I can't pin either personality on lines....dogs are individual, but with my male, I do know his pedigree and know the lines he's made of carry what he shows in his temperament.
Can't say the same for my CGC(2x's!) non papered/no pedigree girl with her independent streak


----------



## GrammaD

> (not sure if I would include RN as proof of breed-worthiness; I can't seem to make up my mind on that)


I'd give that a big no. Huxley has 2 legs toward his with scores in the mid to high 90s. Only in my nightmares would he be bred. :crazy:


----------



## Sabis mom

onyx'girl said:


> Not sure I understand this? My WL is not independent... he is very biddable/handler sensitive with high pack drive. He wants to be where we are.
> He takes direction well and can do things on his own when asked, but doesn't wander off to do his own thing hardly ever. Though he is aloof with people he has no relationship to.
> 
> My mixed bag of lines, however is not biddable, and acts a bit defiant. No recall whatsoever. I can't pin either personality on lines....dogs are individual, but with my male, I do know his pedigree and know the lines he's made of carry what he shows in his temperament.
> Can't say the same for my CGC(2x's!) non papered/no pedigree girl with her independent streak


I was referring to my dog. I have an east german/czech male who probably wouldn't care if I vanished as long as he was free to patrol the property. He is easy enough to handle and pretty steady as long as his handler is confidant, but not much of a pet.


----------



## onyx'girl

Sabis mom said:


> I was referring to my dog. I have an east german/czech male who probably wouldn't care if I vanished as long as he was free to patrol the property. He is easy enough to handle and pretty steady as long as his handler is confidant, but not much of a pet.


ah, that's too bad. I bet he's a challenge to train then? I think with many of the Czech dogs, the handler has to really step up to learn how to work such dogs. A learning experience for sure.
The suspicion/lack of focus on the handler that some have can be a challenge. My male is a mix of Czech/WG WL's and he carries some of that to a degree, but he has enough biddabilty/pack drive to over ride the other stuff. Tracking is where it shows most, too aware of the surrroundings to tunnel vision on a food baited track that doesn't hold enough value.


----------



## Jax08

I want to see higher level titles. IMO, Rally is not a breedable title. You get to cheerlead your dog thru the entire course. AKC obedience, tracking, agility. IPO. Herding...those are all things I would look for. Real working dogs...SAR, K9's. I want to see sports and work that show the dog has what it is suppose to have.

I also want to see the dogs personality and temperament. Just because it rocked out an IPO3 doesn't mean it should be bred. What characteristics does it have? How are its drives balanced? Is the dog leaking drive all over the place.

I think there is more than just titles to look at but titles, or real work, is a good place to start.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

This is all very interesting commentary. Before I bought my first dog, I knew none of this... I just knew that I met a hardheaded part czech working line girl and fell in love... Titles meant very little to me. I just knew I wanted that particular dog., I liked her dad, and now nine months later I have her half brother from the same breeder.


----------



## Sabis mom

onyx'girl said:


> ah, that's too bad. I bet he's a challenge to train then? I think with many of the Czech dogs, the handler has to really step up to learn how to work such dogs. A learning experience for sure.
> The suspicion/lack of focus on the handler that some have can be a challenge. My male is a mix of Czech/WG WL's and he carries some of that to a degree, but he has enough biddabilty/pack drive to over ride the other stuff. Tracking is where it shows most, too aware of the surrroundings to tunnel vision on a food baited track that doesn't hold enough value.


It's interesting, everyone says it's the Czech but his sire was awesome. His dam was straight DDR and a working patrol dog who hated everyone. If you had the backbone to handle her she was a machine, if you wavered or hesitated she'd go for you.
My boy was a breeder repo who suffered horrific abuse and neglect. He was judged to unstable to work so I did some light obedience, a bit of agility and some tracking and detection work. He loves to work but I lovingly(and jokingly) refer to him as my 2x4 dog. Unless you can club it through his big head, you might as well be talking to a wall. He's old now, almost 12 and still a handful. When Sabi died he really mellowed a lot though. There's the pack drive, she was the love of his life.
Both dad and mom held obedience titles only but both were working dogs all their lives.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sabis mom said:


> It's interesting, everyone says it's the Czech but his sire was awesome. His dam was straight DDR and a working patrol dog who hated everyone. If you had the backbone to handle her she was a machine, if you wavered or hesitated she'd go for you.
> My boy was a breeder repo who suffered horrific abuse and neglect. He was judged to unstable to work so I did some light obedience, a bit of agility and some tracking and detection work. He loves to work but I lovingly(and jokingly) refer to him as my 2x4 dog. Unless you can club it through his big head, you might as well be talking to a wall. He's old now, almost 12 and still a handful. When Sabi died he really mellowed a lot though. There's the pack drive, she was the love of his life.
> Both dad and mom held obedience titles only but both were working dogs all their lives.


Ah, someone else with a breeder return... I have two of them.


----------



## Sabis mom

glowingtoadfly said:


> Ah, someone else with a breeder return... I have two of them.


 
He is the man in my life. 

Not a return though hunted down and forcibly seized, owners charged. In such bad shape he was supposed to be put down, until I convinced my boss to give me a chance with him.


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> In my opinion, you are wrong. (you see what I did there?)
> 
> Yup and had she said that I would have not had an issue.  You are entitled to your opinion.
> 
> If your standards are so low that a "test" of very basic obedience and stability in a controlled setting while on lead are sufficient to determine a dog is worthy of breeding, you're not doing anything to even maintain the breed, or support practices that do, much less improve it.
> 
> I disagree with your opinion.... If you are producing high drive working dogs and many of those dogs are going into pet homes where people can't handle them and wind up taking them to the shelters when they are 10 or 11 months then how is that helping/improving the breed?
> 
> I have a wee girl laying by my feet right now who has lots of performance potential  But she is also "just a pet" in the sense that she is family companion first and everything else is icing on the rather adorable little slice of cutiecake she is


I have a little guy lying by me right now too. I'm sure he has lots of performance potential, but he is not going to get it in my pet home. He will have vet care, food and water, plenty of exercise but that is it. Is that fair? Probably not.... but since his mom was a stray rescued off the streets just before she had her puppies its most certainly better than it could have been had she not been rescued and he had to survive on the streets.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sabis mom said:


> He is the man in my life.
> 
> Not a return though hunted down and forcibly seized, owners charged. In such bad shape he was supposed to be put down, until I convinced my boss to give me a chance with him.


My girl was in pretty bad shape when we got her too, and we had to convince our breeder that we could work with her and give her what she needed.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sabis mom said:


> I lovingly(and jokingly) refer to him as my 2x4 dog. Unless you can club it through his big head, you might as well be talking to a wall. He's old now, almost 12 and still a handful. When Sabi died he really mellowed a lot though.


This is my Czech boy as well. He is 12 and so stubborn.


----------



## onyx'girl

> I disagree with your opinion.... If you are producing high drive working dogs and many of those dogs are going into pet homes where people can't handle them and wind up taking them to the shelters when they are 10 or 11 months then how is that helping/improving the breed?


shepherdmom....any responsible breeder will take back a puppy that isn't a good match(but most will match them accordingly to set the pup up for success!) If a puppy is dumped in a shelter, the lines aren't to blame. The owner and or breeder is who should be held accountable. 
High drive doesn't equal high energy with no off switch. Responsible breeders will only place their pups where they know they will succeed.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

shepherdmom said:


> I have a little guy lying by me right now too. I'm sure he has lots of performance potential, but he is not going to get it in my pet home. He will have vet care, food and water, plenty of exercise but that is it. Is that fair? Probably not.... but since his mom was a stray rescued off the streets just before she had her puppies its most certainly better than it could have been had she not been rescued and he had to survive on the streets.


Any breeder thats not producing junk will happily take back the breeder returns because they are "too much". You just raised a green dog for them that either can be sold as a good work prospect or with some small work obedience trained and sold at a higher rate as a young dog.

If you cant handle a dog with a bit of drive get a pug. Watering down the breed for people that do not have the ability to handle a stronger dog with the need for intense mental and physical stimulation is what got the breed in the trouble they are in today.

As to your dog being capable of high preformance, how do you know? Stories are nice but reality is often a slap in the face.


----------



## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> shepherdmom....any responsible breeder will take back a puppy that isn't a good match(but most will match them accordingly to set the pup up for success!) If a puppy is dumped in a shelter, the lines aren't to blame. The owner and or breeder is who should be held accountable.
> High drive doesn't equal high energy with no off switch. Responsible breeders will only place their pups where they know they will succeed.


I'm sure the breeder for Sabis mom's pup thought she was going to a good home the first time around. 



> Originally Posted by Sabis mom View Post
> He is the man in my life.
> 
> Not a return though hunted down and forcibly seized, owners charged. In such bad shape he was supposed to be put down, until I convinced my boss to give me a chance with him.


As I'm sure glowingtoadfly's breeder also thought her pup was going to a good home the first time around. 



> My girl was in pretty bad shape when we got her too, and we had to convince our breeder that we could work with her and give her what she needed.


Two different people on this small thread have had to rescue dogs from horrible situations. Just think of how many more that are out there that don't get rescued. :teary:


----------



## GrammaD

Still not getting it so I will flat out state this: Opinions CAN be wrong. When they are based upon stereotypes and misinformation, they absolutely can be wrong.

When well researched and planned litters coming from experienced and highly knowledgeable breeders still produce the occasional problem dog, why on earth would anyone promote the breeding of dogs whose only accomplishment is being able to behave decently on a leash in a controlled setting? Especially in the face of evidence that even "nutty" dogs are capable of doing it?

SMH


----------



## glowingtoadfly

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sure the breeder for Sabis mom's pup thought she was going to a good home the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> As I'm sure glowingtoadfly's breeder also thought her pup was going to a good home the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> Two different people on this small thread have had to rescue dogs from horrible situations. Just think of how many more that are out there that don't get rescued. :teary:


By bad shape I mean high drive with no training to control that drive, resource guarding and mouthing like a banshee as well as undersocialized, not abused. Just not in a home that was prepared for her as a puppy, and a complete bear because of it. Great obedience though, smart as a whip.


----------



## GrammaD

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sure the breeder for Sabis mom's pup thought she was going to a good home the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> As I'm sure glowingtoadfly's breeder also thought her pup was going to a good home the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> Two different people on this small thread have had to rescue dogs from horrible situations. Just think of how many more that are out there that don't get rescued. :teary:



And what do those stories have in common? The working line breeders took the dogs back. They did not end up in shelters. If they had come from BYBs touting the dog's CGCs as proof of breed worthiness they would have been just as likely (if not more) to end up in bad homes, but would those BYBs have even taken the dogs back much less hunt them down when they knew there was a problem?

Pretty doubtful.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If you cant handle a dog with a bit of drive get a pug.
> 
> Lofty ideals. Real life doesn't work that way.
> 
> As to your dog being capable of high preformance, how do you know? Stories are nice but reality is often a slap in the face.


You totally missed my point. He may not be capable of high performance frankly I prefer he isn't. My point was that he will never get the opportunity to find out. He could be the Stephen Hawking of German Shepherds but he will never get the opportunity to use it because there are just not enough working homes to go around.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

GrammaD said:


> And what do those stories have in common? The working line breeders took the dogs back. They did not end up in shelters. If they had come from BYBs touting the dog's CGCs as proof of breed worthiness they would have been just as likely (if not more) to end up in bad homes, but would those BYBs have even taken the dogs back much less hunt them down when they knew there was a problem?
> 
> Pretty doubtful.


Hey, my breeder is great. Not a BYB. It just so happens that some of her dogs only have their CGC's and HIC's, including both my dogs' dams. She tests for hips, elbows, and DM, and is currently training and titling her dogs more. I'm ok with fewer titles and working towards more.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

No you dont get it. The home doesnt have to be working, it just has to be capable of creating appropriate boundaries, training and stimulation to the dog.
My current IPO dog could be an active pet if I so desired.

The way real life works is you get a pug or a shelter mutt and leave the breeding of GSDs to the people that know what they are doing.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> Hey, my breeder is great. Not a BYB. It just so happens that some of her dogs only have their CGC's and HIC's, including both my dogs' dams. She tests for hips, elbows, and DM, and is currently training and titling her dogs more. I'm ok with fewer titles and working towards more.


 
How do you know she is great? What are the achievements listed other then getting dogs to procreate?


----------



## boomer11

Schutzhund titles do make a gsd breed worthy. I would bet really good money that more than half the german shepherds in the US couldn't get one. 

First the dog has to be healthy and have good stamina which already eliminates half the gsd's right there lol. Add in all the other qualities and it's harder to get than you think. 

Most people can't get control their dog without a prong much less get a dog to focus for 15 minutes for a good heel.


----------



## Sabis mom

shepherdmom said:


> I'm sure the breeder for Sabis mom's pup thought she was going to a good home the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> As I'm sure glowingtoadfly's breeder also thought her pup was going to a good home the first time around.
> 
> 
> 
> Two different people on this small thread have had to rescue dogs from horrible situations. Just think of how many more that are out there that don't get rescued. :teary:


Yes and in both situations the breeders stepped up and took necessary action to get the dogs back and place them in more appropriate homes. They didn't change the breeding, but at least one sure as **** didn't EVER sell a working pup to a green owner again. Responsible breeding. If you don't want a working dog, pick a different breed. Don't change one that's doing what it is supposed to do.
You want watered down? I have an ASL mill rescue who's a mess. Bag of nerves, reactive, bitey, mess. But she has no protection drive, no food drive, and is soft as butter. Is she a good pet? **** no! What she is, is a full time job and a money pit. Give me WL's any day.


----------



## GrammaD

glowingtoadfly said:


> Hey, my breeder is great. Not a BYB. It just so happens that some of her dogs only have their CGC's and HIC's, including both my dogs' dams. She tests for hips, elbows, and DM, and is currently training and titling her dogs more. I'm ok with fewer titles and working towards more.


I never said anything about the quality of your breeder other than to point out that s/he was responsible and took the dogs back when the initial placement did not work out.

Word to the wise - you have opened a can of worms discussing the lack of titles - I won't touch it because I don't enjoy breeder bashing (other than an occasional snark at an obvious BYB) but you can bet your bottom dollar that someone will take issue with not having some kind of working or show titles on the dogs.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> How do you know she is great? What are the achievements listed other then getting dogs to procreate?


SAR, flyball, IPO off the top of my head. She used to work in rescue, had a couple of heartbreaking dogs who were poorly bred and set out to better the breed.


----------



## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> Hey, my breeder is great. Not a BYB. It just so happens that some of her dogs only have their CGC's and HIC's, including both my dogs' dams. She tests for hips, elbows, and DM, and is currently training and titling her dogs more. I'm ok with fewer titles and working towards more.


First, I think it's great you have such a good relationship with your breeder. You really are a full of recommendations for her. 

I agree with others, cgc and hic are kind of a joke to taut as the biggest "brag" for a breeding dog.... Especially when there are so many out there that have so much more. The quote "sometimes a dog just has something special" is a tad worrisome... I really hope a breeder wouldn't use that line to convince someone why they didn't title their sire or dam. It makes me roll my eyes out of my head lol. 

Question, you mentioned your dog's sire is IPO titled? Did the breeder hot that dog? You don't have to answer, just food for thought. 

Breeders that can or are only capable of doing the hic certification, and the cgc, and are "training" in SAR.... Well, I just don't understand how they can evaluate ANY dogs for protection/bitework or sport. Do you think they can? I mean, they can see their dogs love to play tug, or love a ball, but can they really say, "the pups of this dog will have great grips under pressure.... They'll have fight drive..... Etc". I mean, if the breeder is only titling in cgc and hic and is only saying, "my dogs will produce cgc capable and hic capable dogs," I take NO issue with that. 

It's the breeders that make claims that their dogs will be great in sport, protection, bitework, that the grips will be deep, that the dogs can take pressure, that under pressure they won't go up the lead... Etc... Yet they haven't worked one of their dogs in anything beyond a cgc or hic... I take issue with that. Paying someone else to title the dog is almost just as bad to me. I've talked to trainers that are paid to title... They are working for the paycheck, not to let someone know the dog isn't breed able... Besides, breeders paying for all their dogs to be titled aren't going to listen.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

GrammaD said:


> I never said anything about the quality of your breeder other than to point out that s/he was responsible and took the dogs back when the initial placement did not work out.
> 
> Word to the wise - you have opened a can of worms discussing the lack of titles - I won't touch it because I don't enjoy breeder bashing (other than an occasional snark at an obvious BYB) but you can bet your bottom dollar that someone will take issue with not having some kind of working or show titles on the dogs.


Thanks for the warning. I dont know much about titles and there are a lot of letters by the dogs names on the website that i dont understand. Anyone who feels the need to breeder bash can take it up with the administrators. They dont like that.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

DaniFani said:


> First, I think it's great you have such a good relationship with your breeder. You really are a full of recommendations for her.
> 
> I agree with others, cgc and hic are kind of a joke to taut as the biggest "brag" for a breeding dog.... Especially when there are so many out there that have so much more. The quote "sometimes a dog just has something special" is a tad worrisome... I really hope a breeder wouldn't use that line to convince someone why they didn't title their sire or dam. It makes me roll my eyes out of my head lol.
> 
> Question, you mentioned your dog's sire is IPO titled? Did the breeder hot that dog? You don't have to answer, just food for thought.
> 
> Breeders that can or are only capable of doing the hic certification, and the cgc, and are "training" in SAR.... Well, I just don't understand how they can evaluate ANY dogs for protection/bitework or sport. Do you think they can? I mean, they can see their dogs love to play tug, or love a ball, but can they really say, "the pups of this dog will have great grips under pressure.... They'll have fight drive..... Etc". I mean, if the breeder is only titling in cgc and hic and is only saying, "my dogs will produce cgc capable and hic capable dogs," I take NO issue with that.
> 
> It's the breeders that make claims that their dogs will be great in sport, protection, bitework, that the grips will be deep, that the dogs can take pressure, that under pressure they won't go up the lead... Etc... Yet they haven't worked one of their dogs in anything beyond a cgc or hic... I take issue with that. Paying someone else to title the dog is almost just as bad to me. I've talked to trainers that are paid to title... They are working for the paycheck, not to let someone know the dog isn't breed able... Besides, breeders paying for all their dogs to be titled aren't going to listen.


No, my breeder did not say that to me about something special... That is how I feel about my dogs. Yep. She works her own dogs in IPO and other sports


----------



## Lucy Dog

DaniFani said:


> Question, you mentioned your dog's sire is IPO titled? Did the breeder hot that dog? You don't have to answer, just food for thought.


She wasn't the handler for his IPO1, but was for his IPO2 and will be for his 3.

She trains (or at least used to train) with Robin Huerta. It's a shame she doesn't post here anymore because she knows a lot about her dogs and has trained with them. She'd be able to provide a lot of good insight for anyone with questions.


----------



## Rei

glowingtoadfly said:


> No, my breeder did not say that to me about something special... That is how I feel about my dogs. Yep. She works her own dogs in IPO and other sports


As Lucy Dog said, the dog was trained by someone else for his IPO1. 



I think it's great that you had such a nice experience with your breeder and think so highly of her. She does have very pretty dogs (and some cool looking reptiles!), but you might want to double check a few things before you begin speaking on her behalf  

I don't have anything to offer regarding this breeder or dogs that are not owner trained and handled, just wanted to share because I was also curious. There are some breeders that I would be happy to purchase from even if not all their dogs are HOT, but there are also other breeders that I would not purchase from because they paid for their dogs to be trained/titled (or bought them titled). There are too many other factors to consider.

** References to specific dog and breeder removed**


----------



## Sabis mom

glowingtoadfly said:


> Thanks for the warning. I dont know much about titles and there are a lot of letters by the dogs names on the website that i dont understand. Anyone who feels the need to breeder bash can take it up with the administrators. They dont like that.


 
Well let me give you a hand. Almost all of her dogs have titles, SchH3 for a lot, many are also titled in Czech or Germany. 

Just out of curiosity who is your girls dam? I know of a few people who have dogs from the same breeder.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> SAR, flyball, IPO off the top of my head. She used to work in rescue, had a couple of heartbreaking dogs who were poorly bred and set out to better the breed.


I said what ACHIEVEMENTS? You listed some fun activities. Immidiately discount Rescue and flyball.

Has she ever competed at a high level in IPO? 
Are her dogs competing at a high level in any bite sports or even competing? 
If so how many? 
*Do people interested in competitive IPO or other bitesports buy from your breeder?* 
What dogs has her program produced that are being used to "better" the breed and improve other blood lines? 
How many of her own dogs has she titled to HIGH levels and competed with?
What bloodlines is she using and what is the goal of her program, what type of dogs is she known for producing?

Here is an example of ACHIEVEMENTS using Staatmacht:

-Multiple top level dogs in the BSP and WUSV.
-Multiple top level breeding dogs produced and used in numerous well respected programs. Leon,Terror, Quardes, Trojan etc etc. 
-World level helper and trainer
-Produced dogs for LEO 

Thats a pretty good idea of what your looking for when you speak of achievements.


Same can be seen in other kennels that are RESPECTED and established:
Kulla
Lance Collins
Raino Flugge
Diehl
Sportwaffen

etc etc


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sabis mom said:


> Well let me give you a hand. Almost all of her dogs have titles, SchH3 for a lot, many are also titled in Czech or Germany.
> 
> Just out of curiosity who is your girls dam? I know of a few people who have dogs from the same breeder.


Natasha Von Schraderhaus. Nikita Von Schraderhaus is my boy's dam


----------



## GrammaD

glowingtoadfly said:


> Thanks for the warning. I dont know much about titles and there are a lot of letters by the dogs names on the website that i dont understand. Anyone who feels the need to breeder bash can take it up with the administrators. They dont like that.


Yeah, it seems there are more than just the CGC and HIC you appeared to thing were the extent of it??

Definitely not a breeder who thinks those two things are sufficient from what I saw.

There are primers on title abbreviations you might find helpful. They can get complicated with so many venues out there!


----------



## Sabis mom

glowingtoadfly said:


> Thanks for the warning. I dont know much about titles and there are a lot of letters by the dogs names on the website that i dont understand. Anyone who feels the need to breeder bash can take it up with the administrators. They dont like that.


I see titles, and testing. And you love your dogs.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No you dont get it. The home doesnt have to be working, it just has to be capable of creating appropriate boundaries, training and stimulation to the dog.
> 
> How many pet homes do you think are able to do that?
> 
> The way real life works is you get a pug or a shelter mutt and leave the breeding of GSDs to the people that know what they are doing.


My dogs are from rescues and shelters. I don't breed. BTW this thread isn't in the breeding section its in General Info.


----------



## DaniFani

I realize this is slowly turning into a borderline breeder bashing thread, let's avoid having the mods get peeved and go back to generalizations and not trying to give examples using toads breeder. ** removed by admin**

Back to titles etc.... I think the problem is, it's never one specific thing, one specific title, one specific health test, it's a culmination of a 1000 things. Baseline for most people working dogs is a minimum of all health tests, HOT, high scores, high achievements, very established program (producing working dogs for lots of generations, breeder has experience, etc....). That's just a starting point. Honestly, even my friend who want a GSD and have no interest in working it, I tell them to start there. Like packen said, those minimums rule out a huge percent of the breeders out there. They also regularly place dogs in pet homes. They have to breed dogs that will do well in pet homes. All puppy buyers want stable dogs they can trust around their family.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Better yet watch vid of your dogs stud. 
Then watch vid of Leon vd Staatmach, Quardes vd Staatmach, Stucka V Enickhausen, Irmus Galan Nalag, Chris Spod Lazov.
Its like little league vs NFL.


----------



## boomer11

Ipo3 and wusv is great and all but to me a little over rated. Anything after ipo1 is more about the trainer than the dog Imo. 

Give me a breeder with dogs doing police and Sar work over the #1 in the wusv any day. Titles are great but once a dog has achieved one, real world accomplishments have more weight with me than another title.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

DaniFani said:


> I realize this is slowly turning into a borderline breeder bashing thread, let's avoid having the mods get peeved and go back to generalizations and not trying to give examples using toads breeder. ************
> 
> Back to titles etc.... I think the problem is, it's never one specific thing, one specific title, one specific health test, it's a culmination of a 1000 things. Baseline for most people working dogs is a minimum of all health tests, HOT, high scores, high achievements, very established program (producing working dogs for lots of generations, breeder has experience, etc....). That's just a starting point. Honestly, even my friend who want a GSD and have no interest in working it, I tell them to start there. Like packen said, those minimums rule out a huge percent of the breeders out there. They also regularly place dogs in pet homes. They have to breed dogs that will do well in pet homes. All puppy buyers want stable dogs they can trust around their family.


Right, let's please avoid bashing. People go about their lives in different ways. I prefer small scale, local, homegrown to bigger operations. I agree with Boomer. Give me a breeder that works in SAR any day.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Those operations are small. Success is not determined by size.

This thread isnt about breederbashing its about education. All this was brought on by folks making statements based on nothing but wishful thinking.

Here it is, if you cannot look at your dogs and identify their weaknesses and strengths, if you have not worked your and other dogs, and if you cannot train basic obedience reliably this thread is perhaps the equivelent to trying to walk before you can crawl.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sabis mom said:


> Yes and in both situations the breeders stepped up and took necessary action to get the dogs back and place them in more appropriate homes. They didn't change the breeding, but at least one sure as **** didn't EVER sell a working pup to a green owner again. Responsible breeding. If you don't want a working dog, pick a different breed. Don't change one that's doing what it is supposed to do.
> You want watered down? I have an ASL mill rescue who's a mess. Bag of nerves, reactive, bitey, mess. But she has no protection drive, no food drive, and is soft as butter. Is she a good pet? **** no! What she is, is a full time job and a money pit. Give me WL's any day.


Well we've all had different experiences. I have czech working lines and a wgsl. The show line is a lot easier dog to handle. Even at 12 my wl is a stubborn butt head at times. 

As far as picking a different dog, no I'm not going to do that. I love shepherds and that is what I plan to have until I die... But I'm pretty sure I'll never get a wl again. If I ever decide to go to a breeder again it will likely be a white.


----------



## DaniFani

boomer11 said:


> Ipo3 and wusv is great and all but to me a little over rated. Anything after ipo1 is more about the trainer than the dog Imo.
> 
> Give me a breeder with dogs doing police and Sar work over the #1 in the wusv any day. Titles are great but once a dog has achieved one, real world accomplishments have more weight with me than another title.


Boomer, police k9 has just as many terrible dogs in it as IPO. I always smile when I hear people think police k9 equals some killer breed worthy dog. The requirements in most states to train your k9 aren't nearly as stringent as you think. My friends a k9 handler, he tells me all kinds of stories of dogs afraid to bite, blowing off a find (literally looked at the bad guy and kept moving), dogs that are so out of control they are taken off the street after costing their department millions for dirty bites. 

>>just told a story of a dog that bit a dad walking out of a dairy queen, ate his hand.... Guy was a surgeon, destroyed his right hand (he's right handed)... He wasn't the bad guy, dog just felt like biting him. Guys career and life ruined. Dog wasn't clear. Shouldn't have been out there (as much as some people think this is an "awesome biting machine"). 

Another friend evaluates police k9s in cali. She had some crazy stories, all of dogs being taken off the streets via her recommendation. These were" certified" working Street dogs. 

Yes.... Police dogs are *usually a great thing to see in pedigrees, but just like the IPO titles, there is more to it than that.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

There are more things on heaven and earth, horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

boomer11 said:


> Ipo3 and wusv is great and all but to me a little over rated. Anything after ipo1 is more about the trainer than the dog Imo.
> 
> Give me a breeder with dogs doing police and Sar work over the #1 in the wusv any day. Titles are great but once a dog has achieved one, real world accomplishments have more weight with me than another title.


I will agree that not all world level dogs are great breeding dogs, but LEO and especially SAR are not exclusive criteria for breeding. Dont forget the majority of the LE dogs come from sport breedings.
Plenty of garbage PDs and plenty more SAR duds out there. Thats why you select pups from someone that has a proven history of selecting strong breeding stock or from parents you know are good.

Many LE dogs are sport castoffs doesnt mean they are bad but breeding material?


----------



## shepherdmom

glowingtoadfly said:


> Hey... Psst... Shepherdmom... Go to urban dictionary and look up the definition of an internet warrior. Just do it, and smile.


 :toasting:


----------



## boomer11

Yes of course there are some crap k9 dogs (mostly because of bad training) but I would compare a police k9 in service for 3+ years to an ipo3 dog. Of course it's generalized but give me the police k9. Give me anything real world over a performance.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Will disagree, many are poor genetic quality because they are selected by officers that dont have the dog knowledge to pick a dog that is good and yes theres bad training too..
Again if its a breeder like Diehl using a LE dog, great! 

If its Officer Joe BLow or Susan SAR who decided to breed his/her "real" workin dog to a friends bitch because they will all be just like dad then PASS.


----------



## Sabis mom

shepherdmom said:


> Well we've all had different experiences. I have czech working lines and a wgsl. The show line is a lot easier dog to handle. Even at 12 my wl is a stubborn butt head at times.
> 
> As far as picking a different dog, no I'm not going to do that. I love shepherds and that is what I plan to have until I die... But I'm pretty sure I'll never get a wl again. If I ever decide to go to a breeder again it will likely be a white.


 
The best dog I ever put hands on was a BYB dog from nowhere. But she was absolutely a credit to the breed. Steady, courageous, intelligent, gentle with her family, protective and game, with a work record that put many others to shame. Would I ever have bred her? Not a chance, because for all I know she was a fluke. Beyond a shadow of a doubt there was great WORKING blood in there somewhere, it was what else that worried me.

And if you love shepherds, why again do you wish to change them?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

boomer11 said:


> Yes of course there are some crap k9 dogs (mostly because of bad training) but I would compare a police k9 in service for 3+ years to an ipo3 dog. Of course it's generalized but give me the police k9. Give me anything real world over a performance.


This is how I feel. Give me the actual working dog.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

This thread is about what titles may or may not make a dog breedworthy... And also, it seems, about what makes a dog breedworthy.


----------



## boomer11

glowingtoadfly said:


> This is how I feel. Give me the actual working dog.


A working dog sire or an ipo3 sire is just a baseline. You can take a great pup from a litter and because of lack of training and direction can turn the pup into a crap dog. Your two dogs have better pedigrees than 99% of byb dogs but I'm willing to bet a lot of byb dogs are more well behaved than yours. Pedigree doesn't mean much once you actually have the dog. Good genetics is important but training is just as important.


----------



## shepherdmom

Sabis mom said:


> The best dog I ever put hands on was a BYB dog from nowhere. But she was absolutely a credit to the breed. Steady, courageous, intelligent, gentle with her family, protective and game, with a work record that put many others to shame. Would I ever have bred her? Not a chance, because for all I know she was a fluke. Beyond a shadow of a doubt there was great WORKING blood in there somewhere, it was what else that worried me.
> 
> And if you love shepherds, why again do you wish to change them?


I don't consider getting away from current trends changing them. 
The dogs that were around when I was younger were all large solid dogs that could easily fit into pet homes. The hot messes we have today are not those dogs.


----------



## Rei

glowingtoadfly said:


> I think that the CGC has value and I like to see it in a dog. It's practical, and it does test temperament. The dog has to allow a stranger to handle them, and wait without their owner and remain calm.


Sorry, but I have to comment on this. Allowing a stranger to hold their leash and an out of sight stay do not count as testaments to the dog's temperament and nerves, and even in a dog with a weak temperament, this can be trained fairly easily (depending on the dog). The dog doesn't even have to "remain calm", as you say. The dog simply has to not act out. The dog can be trembling and salivating with his eyes bugged out, but as long as he isn't leaking or pulling, he wouldn't be doing anything wrong in the eyes of a CGC evaluator.

A friend of mine saw my dog very, very worked up a few weeks ago, but then a few minutes later I had put him in a down/stay by himself while I ran out to grab coffee. My friend commented (sounding amazed) about how my dog could go from being so excited to being so calm and peaceful, but I took one look at my dog and laughed. He was tense as all get out and just waiting to be released from his stay for the 10 minutes that I was gone.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

The dog, from my understanding, also has to allow a stranger to touch them. To me, a ten minute out of sight stay is very impressive, and shows emotional control.


----------



## Rei

glowingtoadfly said:


> The dog, from my understanding, also has to allow a stranger to touch them. To me, a ten minute out of sight stay is very impressive, and shows emotional control.


Well, what does it mean if a dog allows a stranger to touch them? It shows that they won't snap at a stranger or shy away from them in a quiet, controlled environment... but I'm not sure what else it proves. I'm probably not really conveying my point very well, but hopefully that makes sense. 

And thanks, but a ten minute out of sight stay really isn't anything  You should read up on the requirements for the BH certification of IPO. My dog has held out of sight stays for well over 30 minutes in very distracting environments, but he is not an emotionally controlled dog (overall). He's an impulsive, drivey dog with low thresholds in many of his drives and is more than just a little loud. The fact that he is so trainable has taught me a lot about him, but the fact that he can maintain an out of sight stay isn't a good indicator of his innate temperament.


----------



## Castlemaid

I've deleted a number of off-topic posts that were nothing more than back and forth bickering and personal attacks. 

*STAY ON TOPIC people, and STOP the personal stuff putting others down and getting all in a huff over nothing!!! *

ADMIN


----------



## GatorDog

glowingtoadfly said:


> The dog, from my understanding, also has to allow a stranger to touch them. To me, a ten minute out of sight stay is very impressive, and shows emotional control.


How is this impressive enough to consider a dog breed worthy? Or maybe your standards are just quite a bit lower than mine. I would think a dog should have a whole lot more capabilities than just being able to stand there, restrained on lead, while the owner is gone for maybe 10 minutes...

I don't even consider the BH to be enough as a breeding "title", but even that is 50 times more difficult than the CGC ever will be. And yeah, the dog is allowed to be pet by the judge and must heel through a group and pass the traffic portion of the test too.


----------



## hunterisgreat

robk said:


> This statement is based on an opinion formed from incomplete information. My male is bite trained but also has rock solid character that has been revealed to me through the testing that comes with IPO training. I would trust him off leash walking through a mall full of screaming children.


Same here... Both my dogs are IPO titled, both do PSA & PP training, both have CGCs earned as adults, and both are often off leash around screaming running children, frequently who are throwing sticks for them lol.


----------



## LoveEcho

glowingtoadfly said:


> The dog, from my understanding, also has to allow a stranger to touch them. To me, a ten minute out of sight stay is very impressive, and shows emotional control.


My dog is, again, insane, and can do this. He passed his CGC with flying colors but he is a fearful, neurotic nerve bag. As others have said, they can be easily trained to pass the CGC- it's not at all an adequate test of temperament. On the flip side, there is absolutely no way he'd ever be able to pass a BH.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Merciel said:


> yep
> 
> Pongu's got buckets of titles. He's a terrible dog. He should never be bred (and, happily, never will be, since he got snipped when he was four months old. The shelter got that much right about him).
> 
> My dog is living proof of the fact that if you dump enough time and money and effort into the project, you can stick some pretty impressive titles on a complete nutbag of a dog. And I _earned_ those titles fair and square -- we are not talking about "midnight trials" or purchased titles here. Throw those into the equation, and titles on paper tell you even less.
> 
> On the other hand, if you can see and evaluate a dog in person, and if you know what you are looking for, you may not need titles at all. I met Nymeria vom Wildhaus and her owner at an obedience trial today. I had, and have, no idea what titles Nymeria has. Maybe she doesn't have any; I didn't ask. But she's a _great_ dog. In terms of intelligence and temperament, she is my ideal dog. I could tell that within two minutes of just seeing her in the trial environment.
> 
> The real value of titles is just that if the owner/breeder put those on the dog, then you can infer that the owner/breeder has worked with that dog and knows the dog's strengths and weaknesses really, really well. And if the dog has been on the circuit for a while, then other people (people who train at the same club, judges, and other competitors in the same sport) have also seen that dog, and you might be able to get outside feedback about whether that dog really is good.
> 
> If the dog has _nothing,_ then that tells you something too, and what it tells me is "I don't want one of those dogs."


I agree that one can title a crazy dog and that meeting a dog tells you a lot about them. I think that the CGC may not be perfect, but in order to get one an owner has to know their dogs' strengths and weaknesses well. While it may not be the perfect title, it does tell me that someone has put effort into a dog. With where I am currently at as a new owner and trainer, it seems like an accomplishment.


----------



## onyx'girl

My dog failed his CGC, he didn't like the way the evaluator approached him on the brushing exercise and low growled. She went up to him in a manner that showed some aprehension and he became suspicious. Had he been approached differently, he would have leaned into the evaluator for pets. He is a very stable dog, yet that one exercise failed to get him the certificate. I think he acted appropriately for his breed. 
CGC should not be considered a title....nor should the STAR puppy certificate(I bet AKC will have it as a title eventually though!).


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> My dog failed his CGC, he didn't like the way the evaluator approached him on the brushing exercise and low growled. She went up to him in a manner that showed some aprehension and he became suspicious. Had he been approached differently, he would have leaned into the evaluator for pets. He is a very stable dog, yet that one exercise failed to get him the certificate. I think he acted appropriately for his breed.
> CGC should not be considered a title....nor should the STAR puppy certificate(I bet AKC will have it as a title eventually though!).


That was my only concern with my male, but fortunately the evaluator owned GSDs and didn't act sketchy


----------



## Baillif

Bequavious said:


> While I don't agree that good working dogs can't make great pets, I will say that every working dog I've met (most are SAR dogs, though I knew a couple IPO pups) had a touch of crazy that a pet owner may not want to work through. And honestly if you're not going to work your dog in some way, it's probably a good idea to look for lower drive and lower energy. There's a reason you can find good working dogs in shelters.


Some of the best dogs for work and sport are the ones that get returned to top sport breeders at around 6-8 months old. They drive non working families nuts.


----------



## onyx'girl

> That was my only concern with my male, but fortunately the evaluator owned GSDs and didn't act sketchy


Ha, the evaluator that did ours owns my dogs littermate, she wasn't intimidated at all by my dog, but for some reason her approach was odd, he read it and acted accordingly. She had never met my dog before(she lives out of state). Though, my dog does hate to have his feet touched by anyone and would fail any tests that would require him to have his feet handled, it is one of his quirks that he supposedly inherited from his sire and his mother.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> Ha, the evaluator that did ours owns my dogs littermate, she wasn't intimidated at all by my dog, but for some reason her approach was odd, he read it and acted accordingly. She had never met my dog before(she lives out of state). Though, my dog does hate to have his feet touched by anyone and would fail any tests that would require him to have his feet handled, it is one of his quirks that he supposedly inherited from his sire and his mother.


Jäger doesn't like his *left* foot touched lol.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Next dog down the road will come from lotsa titles which I will have an expert look at carefully for me. I think they are important now more then I ever thought before, just learning about the breed and figuring out what we want to ultimately do. I swayed from rescue to buying a pup from some very harsh experiences not really dog related more people related. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## glowingtoadfly

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think any title alone makes a dog breedworthy. It is the total dog and the genetics behind it. The titles prove the dogs workability and temperament, but I'd never breed a dog based on the titles earned... If the handler or owner puts time and effort into titling the dog it doesn't make it 'better' than one that hasn't had those opportunities. That said~ titles are worthy of course, just shouldn't be the focus of a breeding program..


I agree that the focus of a breeding program should be the dogs and the genetics behind them, more than titles.


----------



## onyx'girl

The titles will PROVE the genetics and the dogs though! It goes hand in hand.


----------



## Baillif

Meh the titles at least in bitework are important too. Its an all in stride thing. If you really want uber pooches you have to cull like crazy.


----------



## Liesje

IMO, breedable titles are BREED titles, venues that specific BREEDS should be bred to demonstrate minimum levels of competency. I know an agility MACH or CATCH or a flyball Top Flight Expert are harder to obtain than a SchH 3 because of the sheer amount of time and competition involved, but they aren't *breed* titles. Things like Rally are designed so that basically any dog can train and compete.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Everyone here knows more than me about titles... I just fell for a dog nine months ago and am only now figuring out what these things mean...


----------



## LaRen616

onyx'girl said:


> Because a dog that has IPO titles will be a natural biter? Dogs with IPO titles can also have SAR or Therapy titles...a well rounded GSD can do most anything. *I'd personally never really look at a breeder that has CGC's as their brag..especially if that dog earned it before it was mature. *
> Look at the total program, what the breeder is producing, not at the individual title.
> 
> I'd never buy from a breeder that is sending dogs away for titles either.
> 
> Unless you really know what goes into titling a dog legitimately for IPO, you shouldn't shy away from a breeder that is actually training and titling their dogs in the sport.


:thumbup: I agree with Jane's whole post but especially the bolded part.


----------



## LaRen616

LoveEcho said:


> Echo has his CGC and he's insane, a horrible example of temperament. CGC doesn't mean squat beyond that the dog was able to perform basic obedience... it says nothing about the stability of the dog.
> 
> Just because a dog does well in IPO doesn't mean they're high energy and prone to bite. In fact, many dogs who succeed in the sport are the opposite and very balanced- exactly what the sport was supposed to demonstrate.
> 
> A particular title or another doesn't mean much to me- I'm looking for dogs who can be pets AND work. The whole package gets taken into consideration and is what is important.


:thumbup:


----------



## glowingtoadfly

onyx'girl said:


> Ha, the evaluator that did ours owns my dogs littermate, she wasn't intimidated at all by my dog, but for some reason her approach was odd, he read it and acted accordingly. She had never met my dog before(she lives out of state). Though, my dog does hate to have his feet touched by anyone and would fail any tests that would require him to have his feet handled, it is one of his quirks that he supposedly inherited from his sire and his mother.


I am still working with foot handling and treats every day


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sabis mom said:


> I will say that I work largely with poorly bred shepherds and ones with sad to horrific pasts. I believe every dog has the right to a person who thinks they are the best dog in the world, and I have proven beyond a doubt that a great dog is a great dog regardless of pedigree. Sabi saved my life not once but twice while working and I have no clue who her parents were. She was not for breeding but was none the less a terrific example of character.


I agree with this.


----------



## Shade

Some really good points have been brought up already. I mostly agree that titles and genetics should go hand in hand, if I was looking for a dog for a specific venue I would find dogs being bred that had excelled at that particular venue.

I know for me personally I was looking for a overall good dog, so Delgado's lineage has not just IPO and FH's, etc but other titles as well, for example his mother has her HIC, CGN, TT, THD, and SD. I like seeing balance and multiple titles in different venues, it shows them being well rounded  I'm mostly looking at doing nosework and agility with him and whatever else comes to mind, he just loves working period!


----------



## carmspack

" I want a oversize shepherd or a specific color and I pay someone to breed that dog for me, that is my business. Obviously there are a lot of people willing to do that, or you wouldn't see so many ads for old fashioned shepherds."

oops ! Except they are not .


----------



## robk

This thread is not really correctly answering the original question. A breeding title is an IPO1 or HCH and an AD (endurance test). However, these are only a piece of the puzzle under the Koreclass system. *Any dog that cannot pass one of these titles should not be bred.* Having said that, no one should automatically assume that those titles alone make a dog breed worthy. Health, tempermant and correct functional conformation should also be considered.


----------



## GrammaD

> If I want a oversize shepherd or a specific color and I pay someone to breed that dog for me, that is my business. Obviously there are a lot of people willing to do that, or you wouldn't see so many ads for old fashioned shepherds


And that is a *problem*. 

It is not a good thing. 

The fad/pet market should not be dictating breeding practices. Especially not in a working breed.

It is not something to aspire to or to support. 

None of those "attributes" makes a dog worthy of breeding. Not.A.Single.One.


----------



## shepherdmom

carmspack said:


> " I want a oversize shepherd or a specific color and I pay someone to breed that dog for me, that is my business. Obviously there are a lot of people willing to do that, or you wouldn't see so many ads for old fashioned shepherds."
> 
> oops ! Except they are not .


That is a completely different argument one that has been done to death around here. 

What makes a dog breed worthy is what people will buy. Some will buy titles but I'd venture to say more will buy color, size, or other things.


----------



## GrammaD

> What makes a dog breed worthy is what people will buy


Not. It's not.

What makes a dog worthy of breeding is a predicted or proven ability to maintain or improve the breed as determined by someone with a sound and extensive knowledge of genetics, who is capable of discerning working ability and soundness, and has the dedication to prove it by working and titling the dog in venues created to test for virtues and abilities desirable in the breed.


----------



## carmspack

"What makes a dog breed worthy is what people will buy. Some will buy titles but I'd venture to say more will buy color, size, or other things"

what standard? why bother having one? why bother preserving fine breed specific characteristics . Nothing then will be predictable nor reliable . All a big spin of the wheel .

this is how breeds are taken down. The GSD has been at risk due to swells in popularity - post WW 1 -- temperament at an all time low - everyone wanted one of those legendary heroes ---


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> And that is a *problem*.
> 
> It is not a good thing.
> 
> .


Thank you, you get my point. 

I've been on her two years, and everyone has failed to convince me that I don't want what I want. How the heck does anyone still think you are going to convince John Q Public that they can't have what they want. 

IMO if you want to save the true working line you are going to have to convince pet owners to stay away not encourage more of them into working lines.


----------



## GrammaD

Please don't thank me for getting your point.

I really don't appreciate my words being twisted to support a pro-puppy mill/BYB mentality.


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> Please don't thank me for getting your point.
> 
> I really don't appreciate my words being twisted to support a pro-puppy mill/BYB mentality.



Ok I guess you don't get my point if you think I'm pro-puppy mill. I got my first rescue dog almost 30 years ago and have always had at least one or two since. I can get any kind of dog I want out of rescue/shelter. I'm trying (and apparently its not working) to show how pointless it is to try to sway the public. If breeders want to fix the problem they are going to have to take a different approach.


----------



## LaRen616

GrammaD said:


> Please don't thank me for getting your point.
> 
> I really don't appreciate my words being twisted to support a pro-puppy mill/BYB mentality.


:thumbup:


----------



## Merciel

onyx'girl said:


> Awwww...you were able to meet Shadow? The N's are still very young(not yet a yr old) so I doubt she has any titles....yet!
> But just wait.....So far what I've seen of the N litter, they are coming along very well!


I did! I think I might have freaked her owner out a little, because I ran up to her outside a ring, all excited, and went "Is that NYMERIA?!" and of course she had no idea who I was or why I was accosting her.

I always buy the show catalogs for the bigger obedience trials so I can look up the kennel names of any GSDs that impress me (and, conversely, note which ones I want to avoid if I _don't_ like what I see). On this particular day, that owner was running two GSDs in different rings. I had seen the other dog earlier that morning and then I saw Nymeria/Shadow, but I didn't know which one was which, and I really liked one of the dogs but the other wasn't a dog that I personally would want. So I had to run up and ask her which dog I was seeing right then.

Fortunately Nymeria was the one I really liked. Man, she is an _amazing_ dog, I'm still vicariously stoked about how much potential she has to be an obedience rockstar.

Sorry about the off-topic. But boy did I love that dog.


----------



## LaRen616

I bought from a byb who didn't title any of her dogs or do anything with her dogs but kennel and breed them. She only did do prelims on her dogs but she didn't even do that with all of them. Yes, I got an amazing dog from her, he's the best dang dog in the world but he does have a weak immune system and there is concern with his hips and his back legs look weak to me. I got very lucky with him that he is 5 years old and hasn't had any major health issues yet but I still worry. This breeder is purposely breeding huge out of standard GSDs that are liver, white, blue, black, black/tan, sable and long coated. She's also breeding 10 month old males. I hate that I supported that kind of breeder, I got an amazing dog from her but she's ruining the GSD breed by breeding diluted monsters and not even doing health tests. 

Now I will only buy from breeders that show their dogs or work their dogs and they have to do health testing.

I understand that puppies are a crap shoot but I would much rather stack the odds in my favor of getting a healthy and stable puppy by getting a puppy from a reputable breeder that shows/works/health tests their dogs.


----------



## Bequavious

Saphire said:


> I have had the pleasure of meeting several working line GSD's, all of which would do just fine in an active pet home. "Active"should be every GSD home regardless of what line.
> 
> My dog is working line and is very well adjusted, would have no problems with living in a pet home.


I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but I wanted to clarify that when I said "working dog" I meant "dogs that work." It was neither breed specific nor line specific.

One of our team members got a working line mal from a reputable breeder specifically for SAR, but the pup couldn't certify and washed out. Now she's working an owner surrendered GSD whose former pet home couldn't handle him, and he's awesome! (She still has the mal of course, and does other things with him.) We also worked a pet festival with a frisbee/trick performance group, and all of their dogs were rescues.

I guess I'm just trying to say I can understand why people might not want that level of energy and drive. It's nice to say that every German Shepherd home should be a working home (working as in doing _something_ to use the dog's mental and physical energy), but shepherdmom is right when she says there aren't enough working homes to go around (especially when you consider all of the other working breeds). _Most_ homes are pet homes and most people on this board spend a heckuva lot more time with their dogs than what is average. You can tell people to get a different breed or a different species until your face turns blue, but the market is what it is, and I'd much rather people get a healthy, sociable pet-line than a dog they can't handle.


----------



## martemchik

Money drives this market. Expecting people to have higher standards or ethics is kind of funny when profitability is involved. The reason BYB exist is because the sport/show market leaves a gap for others to move in and provide a product that has a demand (lower price/other outliers). Our society, in general, does not get a dog that fits their lifestyle. They want to get a dog, that looks like X, but acts like Y. They want something that looks like a GSD, but fits whatever lifestyle they have. If a properly bred working line is too much energy/drive, they find someone breeding a dog that is less drive/energy. Expecting those breeders to not exist is ridiculous. 95% of the market could care less about the things being discussed on this forum. They want a dog that looks like a GSD, period.

The people of this country, have historically been very against any type of regulations. That is why the SV system or anything like it by the GSDCA or the AKC will never fly. Plenty of breeders think the current requirements by the AKC are too much and therefore other registries have been developed to make people buying those dogs feel better about themselves. There are also plenty of breeders that constantly get recommended and get praise from this forum that do things very much against what the majority preaches…so how do you get any kind of regulation when even those that are praised for their practices? I’ve seen comments that can be summarized with this, “I’m already doing it responsibly, why should I have to pay extra fees/be punished if others aren’t being responsible?”

Really all we can do is educate those that want an education, or want to learn. Too many out there that don’t. There is a such a broad spectrum of breeders/lines/titles/focus that people are going to get what they want. This forum tends to “attack” any breeder that doesn’t fit in a certain box, or more exactly, one that doesn’t fit that particular poster’s box. So someone that has/likes only WL tends to put down anything that has to do with SL and tries to “teach” the person that they should go with WL, and vice versa.

I’ve seen many times that a dog that has a SchH3, V rating, health tested, ect, still gets put down for some reason because when a video is shown of the dog working, someone out there can find something wrong. If we all had input on which studs should be used and which bitches should be bred, none would be. Someone breeds a dog with just a UD or a UDX? They get shot down. Someone breeds two SchH3, great pedigree dogs, “well…the pedigrees don’t really match, so I’m not sure what the breeder is trying to do.” Someone breeds their pets…well, we know what happens then. There really isn’t a “minimum standard” that could be used across the board because many of us have set a very high standard/expectation of our breeders. When we see a breeder not meet that expectation, but still do things fairly responsibly, we still tend to shoot them down and point out all their flaws to whoever is asking about them.


----------



## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> That is a completely different argument one that has been done to death around here.
> 
> What makes a dog breed worthy is what people will buy. Some will buy titles but I'd venture to say more will buy color, size, or other things.


And to accept and encourage that attitude is disgusting!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bequavious

Baillif said:


> Some of the best dogs for work and sport are the ones that get returned to top sport breeders at around 6-8 months old. They drive non working families nuts.


Lol true story! I love being out with the SAR team, because they make my girl look mellow


----------



## carmspack

the dogs that Saphire met ARE working dogs ---
and so is hers -- 

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Saphire*  
_I have had the pleasure of meeting several working line GSD's, all of which would do just fine in an active pet home. "Active"should be every GSD home regardless of what line.

My dog is working line and is very well adjusted, would have no problems with living in a pet home._

I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but I wanted to clarify that when I said "working dog" I meant "dogs that work


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> And to accept and encourage that attitude is disgusting!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No it realistic. Idealism hasn't gotten us anywhere. More and more dogs (not just shepherds) wind up in horror situations every day. Puppy Mill and BYB are getting rich.. Because we refuse to pull our heads out and be realistic about it.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Everyone just start being realistic and breed low drive weak nerved dogs so EVERYONE can have one! After really thinking about it I realized I was wrong, this is indeed the best solution for the breed and all the doggies in the shelter. 

Can someone just scroll the rescue lists and tell me where I can find a poor abandoned working doggy that was to much for his pet home?
Id like something from Kulla, sportwaffen or Staatmacht. There must be many of these in shelters because they are way to much for most pet homes. 

Also let me know how many white ones there are.


----------



## Andaka

I know many of you don't think highly of ASL, but I always obedience train and title my show dogs. The dog I am training now is high drive and ready to go. We have our CDX and are training for our UD. He has 2 legs on his U-CDX. He is training in agility and running with his instructor due to my health issues. He has his OA and 2 legs on OAJ. He passed his GSDCA temperament test and CGC at a young age. I am pleased with my "working dog".


----------



## GrammaD

Andaka said:


> I know many of you don't think highly of ASL, but I always obedience train and title my show dogs. The dog I am training now is high drive and ready to go. We have our CDX and are training for our UD. He has 2 legs on his U-CDX. He is training in agility and running with his instructor due to my health issues. He has his OA and 2 legs on OAJ. He passed his GSDCA temperament test and CGC at a young age. I am pleased with my "working dog".


You health test and title. You PROVE your dogs and if I were interested in getting an ASL again you would be the sort of breeder I would look to. 

You're not just getting a CGC and/or HIC and calling it good proof of proper temperament and considering the dog to be worthy of breeding because of it. 

And I would suspect that some of your puppies would work out in a "typical pet home" and some would require a more of their owners. Same as with WL. Same as with WGSL. 

What I do not agree with is what has been suggested here and I suspect you would disagree with it as well- namely that we turn the GSD into a dog which looks like a GSD but doesn't have the drive and abilities a GSD should have, simply to conform to the pet market. 

I won't speak for anyone else, but I am pretty sure that suggestion is what is irritating many others as well.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Can someone just scroll the rescue lists and tell me where I can find a poor abandoned working doggy that was to much for his pet home?
> Id like something from Kulla, sportwaffen or Staatmacht. There must be many of these in shelters because they are way to much for most pet homes.
> 
> Also let me know how many white ones there are.


Since rescue dogs don't come with pedigrees I'll have to do a best guess. Sables are mostly working lines aren't they? 

How about this one? 










As far as whites go they are few and far between. I've been trying to rescue a white for 2 years now. There are just not any in Nevada.


----------



## shepherdmom

Andaka said:


> I know many of you don't think highly of ASL, but I always obedience train and title my show dogs. The dog I am training now is high drive and ready to go. We have our CDX and are training for our UD. He has 2 legs on his U-CDX. He is training in agility and running with his instructor due to my health issues. He has his OA and 2 legs on OAJ. He passed his GSDCA temperament test and CGC at a young age. I am pleased with my "working dog".


I like ASL's. I don't understand why we aren't recommending the show lines to pet homes? They are far more suited than many of the working lines.


----------



## onyx'girl

Where did you pull up that photo from?


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> What I do not agree with is what has been suggested here and I suspect you would disagree with it as well- namely that we turn the GSD into a dog which looks like a GSD but doesn't have the drive and abilities a GSD should have, simply to conform to the pet market.
> 
> I won't speak for anyone else, but I am pretty sure that suggestion is what is irritating many others as well.


No keep your working dogs... what I'm suggesting is keeping working lines out of the pet world. Don't sell to pet owners, don't let your dogs get out to puppy mills and byb, When someone comes on here wanting a pet and they have 3 kids under the age of 10 or they want and oversize shepherd simply point them to other lines and responsible breeders of those lines. Don't try to convert them. It just ticks people off.


----------



## Rei

Many pet bred GSDs and American/Canadian show bred GSDs are also sable. My neighbor has a sable German Shepherd that is 1/2 American show lines and 1/2 German show lines. I've also run into many sable pet bred German Shepherds, some of which were purchased from a breeder, and some that were adopted from rescue/a shelter. Sable definitely does not equate to working lines. The dog posted in the above picture does not look like a German Shepherd to me?



shepherdmom said:


> No keep your working dogs... what I'm suggesting is keeping working lines out of the pet world. Don't sell to pet owners, don't let your dogs get out to puppy mills and byb, When someone comes on here wanting a pet and they have 3 kids under the age of 10 or they want and oversize shepherd simply point them to other lines and responsible breeders of those lines. Don't try to convert them. It just ticks people off.


I admittedly have not been keeping up with the conversation and where a lot of this is going, but... where is this coming from? Why should working lines be kept out of the dog world? I own a working line dog and am nothing more than a pet home. Not even truly an active pet home, if I'm being honest. I don't believe in trying to "convert" someone either, as I love all lines and believe a good dog can be found among any of the various types, but what does removing WLs from pet homes have to do with it?


----------



## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> Where did you pull up that photo from?


My facebook feed which is full of shepherds in California kill shelters needing rescue.


----------



## LoveEcho

shepherdmom said:


> No keep your working dogs... what I'm suggesting is keeping working lines out of the pet world. Don't sell to pet owners, don't let your dogs get out to puppy mills and byb, When someone comes on here wanting a pet and they have 3 kids under the age of 10 or they want and oversize shepherd simply point them to other lines and responsible breeders of those lines. Don't try to convert them. It just ticks people off.


Nobody here wants a WL dog to go to someone with 3 kids and no time. 
There are plenty of pet homes where WL dogs do well.


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> I like ASL's. I don't understand why we aren't recommending the show lines to pet homes? They are far more suited than many of the working lines.


On this forum, you mean? It wouldn't be a bad idea.

As far as ASLs specifically are concerned, however, it's a little tricky because very often a person who is asking for recommendations will say that they want shepherds with "straight backs" or they "don't want hock walkers" or whatever else. So right off the bat, ASL people are put on the defensive (or closed out altogether), and there aren't that many outspoken ASL people on this forum to begin with.

And once they make suggestions, they're likely to get shot down by people who firmly believe that everybody needs a WL or at least German showline shepherd. It doesn't take long for that to wear you down. Who wants to keep fighting the same fight in every thread?

So I can certainly see why the people who know those lines stop suggesting them, and then nobody's left to fill in the gaps. If somebody came to me personally and asked for an ASL recommendation, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with any. DeBrut? I know them by reputation but I've never seen one of those dogs myself. Alkarah maybe? But I don't really know those dogs well enough to want to put my personal credibility behind them either.

I just don't know the field that well; I'm too ignorant to recommend good breeders producing that type of dog.


----------



## Saphire

LoveEcho said:


> Nobody here wants a WL dog to go to someone with 3 kids and no time.
> There are plenty of pet homes where WL dogs do well.


No dog should go to a home with no time.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## LoveEcho

Saphire said:


> No dog should go to a home with no time.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:thumbup: 

I don't really get where the "converting pet people to WL's" comes from.


----------



## robk

shepherdmom said:


> Since rescue dogs don't come with pedigrees I'll have to do a best guess. Sables are mostly working lines aren't they?
> 
> How about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as whites go they are few and far between. I've been trying to rescue a white for 2 years now. There are just not any in Nevada.


This picture proves nothing to do with your point. It's just a sad picture.


----------



## gsdsar

shepherdmom said:


> No keep your working dogs... what I'm suggesting is keeping working lines out of the pet world. Don't sell to pet owners, don't let your dogs get out to puppy mills and byb, When someone comes on here wanting a pet and they have 3 kids under the age of 10 or they want and oversize shepherd simply point them to other lines and responsible breeders of those lines. Don't try to convert them. It just ticks people off.



First, let me give kuddos to you for sticking with it. You are often at the opposite side of many in these arguments. And you keep your cool. Many cannot do that. 

With that, I must vehemently disagree with your argument. While I understand there is a market for low drive, less active GSD, I cannot support it. Mainly because, that is not true to a GSD. I am a firm believer that it is ok to love a breed, admire a breed, respect a breed without owning it. I love border collies. But I know I am the wrong home for one. So I admire from afar, instead of asking for "less" than the breed is meant to be. Yes, I am sure there are breeders that breed low drive BC. But it's not true to the breed. So not the breed I love. 

I know there is market for GSD that are calmer, less drive, that's undeniable. But I don't have to agree with or support it. I love the breed for what it was meant to be. I think that if someone wants a GSD they should be able to and willing to handle a GSD that is true to the foundation of the breed. If they are not, then they should find a breed that more suits their lifestyle. To say " but I want a GSD, just not the drive" means you(collective) want a Golden in a GSD suit. It's not a GSD in the sense that it can and will perform to the standard set based on the development of the breed. 

Of course there are lines within the breed, unscrupulous breeders that throw dogs together. And not great dogs are brought into the world. I work with a GSD rescue. And have for many many years. We DONT get a lot of dogs from reputable breeders. Yes, we get a few. But very infrequent. What we do get are dogs of indeterminate lineage, with working lines far back. Maybe my area is different. But we are not inundated with well bred working line dogs. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik

GrammaD said:


> I won't speak for anyone else, but I am pretty sure that suggestion is what is irritating many others as well.


This is what gets annoying...when someone says, there are people breeding to the pet market, automatically someone assumes that the conversation is about them in particular. I was talking about all the breeders in this country that do breed for "pets" with no intention to show/trial in any venue.

And trust me, as a WL person, it does annoy me when someone comes on this forum and says, "I want a dog to hike with." and the responses are all "You need to get a WL because SL don't like to be that active." As if there are any GSDs out there that don't want to hike.

But at the same time, I've spoken to ASL breeders who grasp onto the fact that this breed is a SHEPHERD and was never meant to bite humans (even though the founder INVENTED schutzhund). They 100% believe that their dogs, because of their better conformation and "smoother/more efficient movement" would be better at herding sheep for 10 hours a day than my WL that clearly has more drive and more interest in life than their dogs. Also doesn't help when for 7 generations the only sheep the dogs have seen (and not all of them) have been at HIC tests...if you believe your dogs are meant to herd, then take them herding and prove it!

At the end of the day, both groups can be very degrading about one another.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Titles aren't the be all end all for me, and what works for me may not work for you (general you).

However, when I look to buy a puppy, I want to see what the parents have accomplished, and I agree it isnt just a cgc or hic, or TT. It doesn't have to be IPO or BH, it can be "real life" stuff, it can be obedience titles, SAR, herding,certified in 'something'. It also has to be a breeder I believe in and trust. If a breeder I trusted had done all the health testing / had sound temperaments in their breeding pair, were producing what I wanted in a dog and said 'hey I think this pair would make great xxx's" I wouldn't have a problem taking a chance

Granted Masi has been handler handicapped for years thru no fault of her own Is my constant companion and we do 'alot' of physical activity. Breeding is not my thing, (it's to easy to find a good dog!) As long as I get what a shepherd is supposed to be, versatile, I'm a happy camper.

I've come to the conclusion over the years and after reading sooooo many posts on these forums, not to recommend wl's to especially first time owners unless I know them personally and know they are dedicated.

I'm tired of seeing to many "I want a sable, I want a black, I want a couch potatoe, I want to only walk my dog a couple times a day"..or the ones who get those cute puppies that turn into biting machines at 4/6 mths of age, and owners can't handle it..

Ok, done rambling


----------



## GrammaD

martemchik said:


> At the end of the day, both groups can be very degrading about one another.


Which is another things that annoys me. Because good breeders within each group have very important things in common. Health testing and titling (actual titles I mean) and screening homes to appropriately place puppies, etc.

What I disagree with is this wack contention that WL dogs cannot make good pets. They are not monsters just waiting for an opportunity to land a bite on someone after they've torn your house apart and squashed your children. Well... maybe the puppies but my SL boy was a landshark too, just less easy to divert onto a tug than my current "monster." :wild:


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> What I disagree with is this wack contention that WL dogs cannot make good pets.


I agree with you to a point, it's usually not the dog that can't adapt to the home, it's usually inexperienced owners.


----------



## LaRen616

shepherdmom said:


> Since rescue dogs don't come with pedigrees I'll have to do a best guess. Sables are mostly working lines aren't they?
> 
> How about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as whites go they are few and far between. I've been trying to rescue a white for 2 years now. There are just not any in Nevada.


That is not a purebred GSD, that is a Husky mix. I used to own a male GSD/Husky and my mom owned a female GSD/Husky mix. Both of their faces and tails look extremely similar to this photo that you posted and my GSD/Husky mix had the same coloring. 

So no, that's not a sable working line GSD. Look closely at the face and tail.


----------



## DTS

What about PSA/SDA titles? I'm interested in those, what is everyone's opinion on those? 
I think putting a WL in a pet home really depends on the person. 
When we got our male, we asked for a low/medium drive suited for a pet home. 
As he is grown we have realized he is more high drive. 
Always on the go, and from what my sch trainer says, is meant for the sport. During training one day, a K9 handler who trains there was very impressed with him and said with his drive he could be a K9. Of course, that was just all talk, but you get the picture.
Not exactly what we expected. I never thought I would have time for sch and the way clubs are described here with new comers, I didn't want any part of it. 
But, we rose to the occasion. After regular classes weren't enough, we got in touch with a club, got private lessons for 6 weeks so he could be monitored and evaluated and we will be joining the club next week. I hope we can title him. 
It will be just for fun, and gives him something to do but that would be a great acomplishment for him. It's all about how far you are willing to go.


----------



## onyx'girl

DTS said:


> *What about PSA/SDA titles? I'm interested in those, what is everyone's opinion on those?*
> I think putting a WL in a pet home really depends on the person.
> When we got our male, we asked for a low/medium drive suited for a pet home.
> As he is grown we have realized he is more high drive.
> Always on the go, and from what my sch trainer says, is meant for the sport. During training one day, a K9 handler who trains there was very impressed with him and said with his drive he could be a K9. Of course, that was just all talk, but you get the picture.
> Not exactly what we expected. I never thought I would have time for sch and the way clubs are described here with new comers, I didn't want any part of it.
> But, we rose to the occasion. After regular classes weren't enough, we got in touch with a club, got private lessons for 6 weeks so he could be monitored and evaluated and we will be joining the club next week. I hope we can title him.
> *It will be just for fun, and gives him something to do but that would be a great acomplishment for him. It's all about how far you are willing to go.*


PSA and SDA are worthy titles, yet may not be to prove a dog is breedworthy. Both of those have very few clubs and trials are far and few between. 
If I had my choice I'd train in either of those instead of IPO, but we have no PSA or SDA clubs in my state. My club does many of the SDA exercises though.

Sport is always fun, but there is a huge level of commitment. If you don't train consistently in all three phases, accomplishing anything is never happening.


----------



## shepherdmom

LaRen616 said:


> That is not a purebred GSD, that is a Husky mix. I used to own a male GSD/Husky and my mom owned a female GSD/Husky mix. Both of their faces and tails look extremely similar to this photo that you posted and my GSD/Husky mix had the same coloring.
> 
> So no, that's not a sable working line GSD. Look closely at the face and tail.


Well thankfully one of the major Shepherd rescues didn't feel that way, they stepped up and took him.


----------



## DTS

We are committed to training. I haven't ever done dog sports before so it's a learning experience for us both. 
I was just saying if he did get titled, he wouldn't be bred just because he has them. 
He's a great all around pup so far. Loves to meet new people but isn't all jumpy about it anymore. Just all tail wags and wanting to be pet. Very confident guy, loves to explore, up for anything. Picks things up quickly and loves to please. 
Besides his slight medical issue he's a great little dude  a little stubborn at times but he's only 6 months. 
It's so nice to have a dog I can take anywhere and not be on alert 24/7 making sure people
Don't get to close. I love saying, yes please pet him!


----------



## martemchik

onyx'girl said:


> PSA and SDA are worthy titles, yet may not be to prove a dog is breedworthy. Both of those have very few clubs and trials are far and few between.
> If I had my choice I'd train in either of those instead of IPO, but we have no PSA or SDA clubs in my state. My club does many of the SDA exercises though.
> 
> Sport is always fun, but there is a huge level of commitment. If you don't train consistently in all three phases, accomplishing anything is never happening.


Yeah, they're fine titles, but not enough opportunity and many people don't know much about them. At least with IPO you know what the dog accomplished at each level, SDA and PSA are still very much unknown.

At the end of the day, you have to trust that the handler/helper/breeder, see what they like and will be truthful when it comes to the breedworthiness of the dog in question. A dog can accomplish an IPO3, but was it because of a great trainer or because of a good dog? Did you find anything out about the dog's temperament that might be questionable, but you still pushed through it and titled the dog anyways?

There are plenty of people out there that are titling just to breed, and then there are those that are titling to find out if their dog should be bred. The trick is to figure out who is who.


----------



## Merciel

martemchik said:


> There are plenty of people out there that are titling just to breed, and then there are those that are titling to find out if their dog should be bred. The trick is to figure out who is who.


That's a really good way of putting it. If you don't already have that one saved as a text file for quick copy-pasting in these threads, you should.


----------



## shepherdmom

gsdsar said:


> First, let me give kuddos to you for sticking with it. You are often at the opposite side of many in these arguments. And you keep your cool. Many cannot do that.
> 
> Oh I don't always do that. I had a couple of posts deleted last night.  but thank you for the kind words.
> 
> With that, I must vehemently disagree with your argument. While I understand there is a market for low drive, less active GSD, I cannot support it. Mainly because, that is not true to a GSD. I am a firm believer that it is ok to love a breed, admire a breed, respect a breed without owning it. I love border collies. But I know I am the wrong home for one. So I admire from afar, instead of asking for "less" than the breed is meant to be. Yes, I am sure there are breeders that breed low drive BC. But it's not true to the breed. So not the breed I love.
> 
> We will have to agree to disagree. I think people will go get what they want no matter what, and I'd rather that we support a few good pet breeders that do health test, than force pet people into the puppy mills to get dogs.
> 
> Of course there are lines within the breed, unscrupulous breeders that throw dogs together. And not great dogs are brought into the world. I work with a GSD rescue. And have for many many years. We DONT get a lot of dogs from reputable breeders. Yes, we get a few. But very infrequent. What we do get are dogs of indeterminate lineage, with working lines far back. Maybe my area is different. But we are not inundated with well bred working line dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've tracked two from supposedly reputable breeders in the last year ... It's unfortunate neither wanted the dog back. One said she would take it but would euthanize it so we might as well find it a home. The lady who runs the rescue said that is common and she has seen it a lot.  Its very discouraging to put the time and effort into finding the breeder only to hear that. I now understand why many don't even try anymore.


----------



## Konotashi

Shepherdmom, so because I want a GSD and I'll be providing a pet home, by your logic, I shouldn't get a wl? 
I've already got my breeder picked out. She breeds WLs and put simply, they're awesome dogs (to me). But definitely not dogs for everyone, and I even told her I want a dog that I would be able to handle, as a first time GSD owner. She told me that wouldn't be a problem. 

Not every dog in every line will be suitable for everything they're (for lack of better words) *supposed* to be able to do. 
Not all working lines will be able to work. 
Not all showlines will be suitable for show. Breeders know the strengths and weaknesses of their dogs and can evaluate puppies to ensure buyers are getting the best match. 

Although I would consider myself a pet home, I do want a dog that I can do bitesports with. If not, oh well. There's flyball and agility, among many other sports. 

But by your logic, I should breed my Pom because people would buy his puppies. He's adorable, he's friendly, he's not aggressive in any way, he likes to play fetch, he's active, his incorrect coat needs very little grooming, and he's an uncommon color to boot. Basically, the perfect pet. PET. 
BUT he has jacked up teeth, an underbite, is double the size a Pom should be, his general body shape is all kinds of wrong, and his coat is wrong. But who cares about all that, people would buy his puppies! 

Breeders should also start breeding GSDs that weigh 10 lbs because sometimes GSDs are just too big for every person who likes them. Those dwarf dogs sure are adorable! Oh, and soft ears are cute too!

I really like the Tibetan mastiffs, but they're just too much for me! They should start breeding them with a temperament that I like so I can have one.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> I've tracked two from supposedly reputable breeders in the last year ... It's unfortunate neither wanted the dog back. One said she would take it but would euthanize it so we might as well find it a home. The lady who runs the rescue said that is common and she has seen it a lot.  Its very discouraging to put the time and effort into finding the breeder only to hear that. I now understand why many don't even try anymore.


I'm in agreement with you...I know a breeder that's constantly rehoming dogs because they're "too much dog" for the family. But like I've stated, breeders should be telling those potential owners that a different breed is better for their lifestyle, and not trying to change the breed into something it was never meant to be.

I used to think that yes, lower drive, GSD looking dogs have a place in this world for owners that can't handle a "true WL GSD," but I've realized that no, people just need to get dogs that fit them instead of changing the dog to fit them. We have hundreds of dog breeds, one of them will fit what you need. And if all you want is the love and affection of a dog, any dog will do, there is no reason it needs to look a certain way.

We developed breeds for a reason and we should stick with what they were developed for, not evolve them into something else entirely and then try to convince ourselves or other that this is the way the dog is meant to be and the market doesn't ask for true working dogs anymore. If that's true...then change the market, tell those "pet" owners that can't handle a higher drive dog that they should look for a breed known to have lower drives.


----------



## martemchik

Konotashi said:


> Shepherdmom, so because I want a GSD and I'll be providing a pet home, by your logic, I shouldn't get a wl?
> I've already got my breeder picked out. She breeds WLs and put simply, they're awesome dogs (to me). But definitely not dogs for everyone, and I even told her I want a dog that I would be able to handle, as a first time GSD owner. She told me that wouldn't be a problem.


You're not your average American pet home. You do more with your dog in a week than most people do over the life of a dog. 99% of people on this forum are way above what the average American home is. So anyone that thinks that just because they're not titling/showing (which you are) it makes them a pet home, it doesn't. Many people here are training way more, giving way more exercise, and care way more about what their dog is doing than the average American.


----------



## GrammaD

:happyboogie:


martemchik said:


> I'm in agreement with you...I know a breeder that's constantly rehoming dogs because they're "too much dog" for the family. But like I've stated, breeders should be telling those potential owners that a different breed is better for their lifestyle, and not trying to change the breed into something it was never meant to be.
> 
> I used to think that yes, lower drive, GSD looking dogs have a place in this world for owners that can't handle a "true WL GSD," but I've realized that no, people just need to get dogs that fit them instead of changing the dog to fit them. We have hundreds of dog breeds, one of them will fit what you need. And if all you want is the love and affection of a dog, any dog will do, there is no reason it needs to look a certain way.
> 
> We developed breeds for a reason and we should stick with what they were developed for, not evolve them into something else entirely and then try to convince ourselves or other that this is the way the dog is meant to be and the market doesn't ask for true working dogs anymore. If that's true...then change the market, tell those "pet" owners that can't handle a higher drive dog that they should look for a breed known to have lower drives.


:thumbup:


----------



## Rei

martemchik said:


> You're not your average American pet home. You do more with your dog in a week than most people do over the life of a dog. 99% of people on this forum are way above what the average American home is. So anyone that thinks that just because they're not titling/showing (which you are) it makes them a pet home, it doesn't. Many people here are training way more, giving way more exercise, and care way more about what their dog is doing than the average American.


Well, what would you qualify as an average American pet home? How much exercise a week is average, and how much is above average/active/appropriate for a WL dog? I really don't think it takes that much training experience or exercise to keep a WL dog happy. 

I'm very, very grateful that when I first came to the forums, no one told me to go adopt a Greyhound or a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, because that would be better suited for average ol' me. Now, do I believe that the GSD (as the dog that it is meant to be) is suitable as a pet for a typical American family? No, I don't. I think there are a lot of people who think they want a GSD who truly don't want anything close to that, except for in looks. But, that said, I think we should give people some more credit when it comes to their willingness to provide for and understand their dog.

As for not allowing average families/dog owners to purchase WL GSDs? If my experience as an average pet owner and first time dog owner has taught me anything, it's that I will always want this type of temperament and drive in a dog. I'm glad my dog's breeder gave me a chance to have what I have in my first dog, instead of writing me off (because on paper, I'm sure I was far from an ideal home).

I'm definitely not disagreeing with the other points you've made in this thread (because I absolutely do agree, although I've only been skimming). To be frank, I don't even know where the whole "pet owners shouldn't have WL dogs" idea came from, and how it's relevant to the discussion. I certainly don't wish for the breed to be watered down for the benefit of the pet market, but selling lower drive WL dogs to pet homes is not the same thing? That said, I particularly like your point about certain breeders and why they title and breed (the one that Merciel quoted). That's why there are certain titles I value over others for breeding - with a breeder that is truly interested in seeing what the training and tests reveal about the dog, IPO will say a lot more about the dog than a CGC or HIT. To be honest, as a certification, the CGC can often work against a GSD in the context of what the breed should be.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Thanks, everyone for posting... I am learning quite a bit from this discussion


----------



## shepherdmom

Konotashi said:


> Shepherdmom, so because I want a GSD and I'll be providing a pet home, by your logic, I shouldn't get a wl?
> I've already got my breeder picked out. She breeds WLs and put simply, they're awesome dogs (to me). But definitely not dogs for everyone, and I even told her I want a dog that I would be able to handle, as a first time GSD owner. She told me that wouldn't be a problem.


I hope it doesn't turn into a problem for you. Some people can handle it, I did... 

Think about the dog for a second though. You say you want to do sport with the dog.... What happens if you get into it and don't like it? A lot of people start with good intentions then life happens. A WL is bred to work. A bored WL will find their own job. I think you understand that and will make the commitment to keep the dog busy. I don't think the average joe blow is that thoughtful.


----------



## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> I hope it doesn't turn into a problem for you. Some people can handle it, I did...
> 
> Think about the dog for a second though. You say you want to do sport with the dog.... What happens if you get into it and don't like it? A lot of people start with good intentions then life happens. A WL is bred to work. A bored WL will find their own job. I think you understand that and will make the commitment to keep the dog busy. I don't think the average joe blow is that thoughtful.


This is where you are wrong. A WL dog does not have to have a job or be worked professionally to be content in a pet home. The dog will need exercise both mentally and physically to be healthy and happy, that SHOULD go for every GSD. There are plenty of ways a pet home can satisfy a sound WL GSD.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Konotashi

shepherdmom said:


> I hope it doesn't turn into a problem for you. Some people can handle it, I did...
> 
> Think about the dog for a second though. You say you want to do sport with the dog.... What happens if you get into it and don't like it? A lot of people start with good intentions then life happens. A WL is bred to work. A bored WL will find their own job. I think you understand that and will make the commitment to keep the dog busy. I don't think the average joe blow is that thoughtful.


I'm already active in flyball, so that's always going to be there. There are several people that race in flyball that are also active in bitesports and although I don't talk to all of them all the time, they are people I get along with. I went to an NARA championship with one of my friends and it was enjoyable. Not just watching the sport, but being around the people. Honestly, the people you work with in any sport can make or break it for you, as far as whether or not you like it.


----------



## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> I'm in agreement with you...I know a breeder that's constantly rehoming dogs because they're "too much dog" for the family. But like I've stated, breeders should be telling those potential owners that a different breed is better for their lifestyle, and not trying to change the breed into something it was never meant to be.
> 
> But its already in the breed. It's not changing the breed. Just like ever so often there is a white in a littler of colored dogs. These things cropped up naturally.
> 
> We've already got two completely different genetic lines between the show line and the working line.
> 
> I used to think that yes, lower drive, GSD looking dogs have a place in this world for owners that can't handle a "true WL GSD," but I've realized that no, people just need to get dogs that fit them instead of changing the dog to fit them. We have hundreds of dog breeds, one of them will fit what you need. And if all you want is the love and affection of a dog, any dog will do, there is no reason it needs to look a certain way.
> 
> People don't want one of the other hundreds of dog breeds, they want a shepherd by golly and if a WL breeder won't sell it to them that's ok there is plenty of puppy mills that will. You are not going to change human nature.
> 
> We developed breeds for a reason and we should stick with what they were developed for, not evolve them into something else entirely and then try to convince ourselves or other that this is the way the dog is meant to be and the market doesn't ask for true working dogs anymore.


And you are going to sit here and tell me with a straight face the guy who created shepherds didn't hear that exact same argument when he was developing the shepherd?


----------



## boomer11

Do you think a dog knows biting a sleeve is a job and jogging with you isn't? Anything that engages the dogs mind and body is a job to the dog. Going fishing with you is a job. Fetching that ball that keeps getting away from you is a job. Some people are so clueless when it comes to working lines. They read something on the Internet and believe it to be fact.


----------



## Konotashi

Saphire said:


> This is where you are wrong. A WL dog does not have to have a job or be worked professionally to be content in a pet home. The dog will need exercise both mentally and physically to be healthy and happy, that SHOULD go for every GSD. There are plenty of ways a pet home can satisfy a sound WL GSD.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not just every GSD, but just about every dog. There are a few breeds that would rather sleep and act like a cat all day, but most need physical and mental stimulation or they'll be labeled as the super hyper, crazy dog. 
If I don't take Ozzy out for at LEAST fetch, he drives me up the wall. 

The other day he shredded his paw pads (again) somehow. I only noticed because he was lying on his back with his feet in the air and I saw a huge flap of skin hanging from one of his paws. But when he woke up again, he was driving me _bonkers _trying to get me to throw his ball. And when I hid all the tennis balls, he was running around the house trying to find them, whining, begging, crying and pawing at me because he was bored.


----------



## LifeofRiley

shepherdmom said:


> I hope it doesn't turn into a problem for you. Some people can handle it, I did...
> 
> Think about the dog for a second though. You say you want to do sport with the dog.... What happens if you get into it and don't like it? A lot of people start with good intentions then life happens. A WL is bred to work. A bored WL will find their own job. I think you understand that and will make the commitment to keep the dog busy. I don't think the average joe blow is that thoughtful.


But, this is an observation that is not line or breed specific. 

The difference between my opinion, and yours, is that I don't think this is something unique to working line dogs... it is what happens with the mutt pup that people adopted because it was cute but then didn't want to deal with the fact that it got bigger than anticipated, the pup that was purchased online because it looked snuggly but turned out to not really be into snuggling, and the german shepherd pup that was purchased because people wanted a guard dog without actually wanting to have to interact with the dog.

With that said, I do think that most people should look to the shelter first for a pet and I firmly believe that the vast majority of those folks will find what they actually want there if they spent the same amount of time evaluating shelter dogs as they did researching breeders. 

But, people can be really caught up on breed stereotypes that make it seem like any GSD will be Rin Tin Tin no matter what their breeding or what their training. That mindset is what fuels the business of BYBs and Puppy Mills.


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> This is where you are wrong. A WL dog does not have to have a job or be worked professionally to be content in a pet home. The dog will need exercise both mentally and physically to be healthy and happy, that SHOULD go for every GSD. There are plenty of ways a pet home can satisfy a sound WL GSD.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I disagree....While there are some WL dogs that do not have to have a job, there are some that will not be happy with playing fetch or jogging. My wl dogs did obedience, they played hide and seek with the kids, they played fetch, they chased my husbands dirt bike and still they found other jobs for themselves, a favorite was bringing me dead things they found on our 10 acres. Our 10 acres was fenced and the school bus drove down three sides of that fence. Another game they came up with themselves was to chase that school bus down all three sides of the 10 acres twice a day. They are smart, they are driven and they need to be busy. I was lucky I was a housewife and was home with them. Can you imagine if they were crated for 4-6 hours a day? 



> Do you think a dog knows biting a sleeve is a job and jogging with you isn't? Anything that engages the dogs mind and body is a job to the dog. Going fishing with you is a job. Fetching that ball that keeps getting away from you is a job. Some people are so clueless when it comes to working lines. They read something on the Internet and believe it to be fact.


----------



## Liesje

shepherdmom said:


> I disagree....While there are some WL dogs that do not have to have a job, there are some that will not be happy with playing fetch or jogging.


How is this in any way unique to just working line GSDs, or just GSDs? ALL good GSDs should have some drive, some stamina, and the desire to work their minds and bodies. That's the point of this thread, what makes a GSD BREEDworthy. I would never breed a GSD that didn't push the owner to get off their butt and work the dog, but that doesn't have to mean a hectic, nervy, low threshold dog. I've actually found that a lot of west German *show* line dogs have more hectic, pace-y energy and require physical exercise in order to get their minds to shut off and settle. That's not correct for breeding, but I wouldn't generalize that show lines are safe for pet homes and working lines are not.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I work 30 hours a week and my dogs are regularly crated while I am working. They are both working lines and they do just fine in their crates until my husband and I come home.


----------



## shepherdmom

boomer11 said:


> Do you think a dog knows biting a sleeve is a job and jogging with you isn't? Anything that engages the dogs mind and body is a job to the dog. Going fishing with you is a job. Fetching that ball that keeps getting away from you is a job. Some people are so clueless when it comes to working lines. They read something on the Internet and believe it to be fact.


My rescue puppy just brought me a tennis shoe... So rather than debate with you over what a WL does or does not need, I'm going to go give my little dude some fetch time because he is still a shepherd and is finding his own jobs and I'd rather it not be eating my tennis shoes.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

shepherdmom said:


> My rescue puppy just brought me a tennis shoe... So rather than debate with you over what a WL does or does not need, I'm going to go give my little dude some fetch time because he is still a shepherd and is finding his own jobs and I'd rather it not be eating my tennis shoes.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

martemchik said:


> Money drives this market. Expecting people to have higher standards or ethics is kind of funny when profitability is involved. The reason BYB exist is because the sport/show market leaves a gap for others to move in and provide a product that has a demand (lower price/other outliers). Our society, in general, does not get a dog that fits their lifestyle. They want to get a dog, that looks like X, but acts like Y. They want something that looks like a GSD, but fits whatever lifestyle they have. If a properly bred working line is too much energy/drive, they find someone breeding a dog that is less drive/energy. Expecting those breeders to not exist is ridiculous. 95% of the market could care less about the things being discussed on this forum. They want a dog that looks like a GSD, period.
> 
> The people of this country, have historically been very against any type of regulations. That is why the SV system or anything like it by the GSDCA or the AKC will never fly. Plenty of breeders think the current requirements by the AKC are too much and therefore other registries have been developed to make people buying those dogs feel better about themselves. There are also plenty of breeders that constantly get recommended and get praise from this forum that do things very much against what the majority preaches…so how do you get any kind of regulation when even those that are praised for their practices? I’ve seen comments that can be summarized with this, “I’m already doing it responsibly, why should I have to pay extra fees/be punished if others aren’t being responsible?”
> 
> Really all we can do is educate those that want an education, or want to learn. Too many out there that don’t. There is a such a broad spectrum of breeders/lines/titles/focus that people are going to get what they want. This forum tends to “attack” any breeder that doesn’t fit in a certain box, or more exactly, one that doesn’t fit that particular poster’s box. So someone that has/likes only WL tends to put down anything that has to do with SL and tries to “teach” the person that they should go with WL, and vice versa.
> 
> I’ve seen many times that a dog that has a SchH3, V rating, health tested, ect, still gets put down for some reason because when a video is shown of the dog working, someone out there can find something wrong. If we all had input on which studs should be used and which bitches should be bred, none would be. Someone breeds a dog with just a UD or a UDX? They get shot down. Someone breeds two SchH3, great pedigree dogs, “well…the pedigrees don’t really match, so I’m not sure what the breeder is trying to do.” Someone breeds their pets…well, we know what happens then. There really isn’t a “minimum standard” that could be used across the board because many of us have set a very high standard/expectation of our breeders. When we see a breeder not meet that expectation, but still do things fairly responsibly, we still tend to shoot them down and point out all their flaws to whoever is asking about them.


This makes a lot of sense to me.


----------



## Bequavious

carmspack said:


> the dogs that Saphire met ARE working dogs ---
> and so is hers --


Then I'm sure hers has a touch of crazy too  I'm not saying these dogs are unmanageable or horrible pets, I'm just saying that all the best working dogs I've met of any breed had a touch of crazy that I can easily envision being "too much" for your average American pet home. Sure the average home should step up and get better, but people have jobs and kids and kids' activities and well the dog kinda gets left as an afterthought with maybe a walk around the block or the occasional after work fetch session. :shrug:



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Everyone just start being realistic and breed low drive weak nerved dogs so EVERYONE can have one! After really thinking about it I realized I was wrong, this is indeed the best solution for the breed and all the doggies in the shelter.
> 
> Can someone just scroll the rescue lists and tell me where I can find a poor abandoned working doggy that was to much for his pet home?
> Id like something from Kulla, sportwaffen or Staatmacht. There must be many of these in shelters because they are way to much for most pet homes.
> 
> Also let me know how many white ones there are.


I don't think anyone is saying the currently awesome breeders should breed less awesome dogs. They are the high end and they're breeding for the high end customers who will continue to work their dogs, maintain the standard, and generally be the epitome of what a GSD/human pair was meant to be. They also happily rehome dogs that went to homes who couldn't handle them originally or homes whose situations changed such that they could no longer give the dog everything he needs.

No, never change these breeders, simply understand that there is an entirely separate class of shepherds out there: the economy car of shepherds so to speak. Despite what people say these dogs are not entirely un-shepherd. There are more aspects to the breed than energy- they are also loyal, biddable, smart, and protective. Now obviously not all pet-line dogs will have these qualities either, but to say those that do shouldn't exist is a little silly.

There were countless GSDs at the pet festival this weekend and I'd wager 90% were pet-line/rescue. They walked nicely with their people, received pets from all manner of children and adults, and generally seemed to be enjoying the day and bringing joy to their people. The _only_ effect the pet-line dogs have on the breed is in reputation. These dogs are not being included in any of the awesome breeders' lines and therefore are not 'watering down' the breed in that aspect whatsoever.

The effect on the reputation is real, however, and it's one of the reasons (i think) some people would rather recommend the best pet-line breeders than demonize them altogether. I, at least, would rather see over-sized, washed out shepherds walking around a pet festival happily with their people than hear one story after another about shepherds so nervy and fearful they can't leave the house or with thresholds so low they can't be trusted with the family's children.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

WLs tend to be less forgiving of idiots. If you dont have some common dog sense a pug is always a good option.
That being said rescues are not overpopulated with well bred working lines, infact there are probably 100% more poorly bred byb GSDs in the shelters then you will ever find well bred WLs, so that argument is not valid.

Have you ever owned a WL GSD shepherdmom and if so what lines?


----------



## Merciel

Bequavious said:


> I, at least, would rather see over-sized, washed out shepherds walking around a pet festival happily with their people than hear one story after another about shepherds so nervy and fearful they can't leave the house or with thresholds so low they can't be trusted with the family's children.


Yeah, I'm with you on that, and it's one reason that I have (reluctantly) started compiling a list of breeders in my area whose dogs _I_ would not want because they have (in my opinion) zero potential for high-level performance or working ability... but at least they're reasonably friendly and stable and healthy and make good pets and don't make their families sad.

One problem I haven't quite figured out how to solve is that when people say "well you can get a better dog elsewhere" I am not sure how to respond, because yes, you _can_ get a better dog elsewhere, that's exactly why I'm halfhearted at best about recommending these breeders.

I don't think the dogs they're producing are good GSDs. I think most of the homes that buy these dogs should probably go adopt homeless shelter pets, because there are _plenty_ of shelter pets who will make lovely, affectionate, relaxed companions (...but frequently people don't want them because they don't look like Rin Tin Tin). I honestly don't have a ton of empathy either for the breeders producing these dogs or for the people who buy them because they absolutely _must have_ a dog that looks a certain way and comes with certain papers, and a shelter mutt's just not good enough for them.

Frankly, I get very judgy about that sort of thing.

...but I'm still making my list of halfhearted "well, at least they suck less than the rest" recommendations. Because at least they do suck less than some of the alternatives in that market.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Bequavious said:


> Then I'm sure hers has a touch of crazy too  I'm not saying these dogs are unmanageable or horrible pets, I'm just saying that all the best working dogs I've met of any breed had a touch of crazy that I can easily envision being "too much" for your average American pet home. Sure the average home should step up and get better, but people have jobs and kids and kids' activities and well the dog kinda gets left as an afterthought with maybe a walk around the block or the occasional after work fetch session. :shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying the currently awesome breeders should breed less awesome dogs. They are the high end and they're breeding for the high end customers who will continue to work their dogs, maintain the standard, and generally be the epitome of what a GSD/human pair was meant to be. They also happily rehome dogs that went to homes who couldn't handle them originally or homes whose situations changed such that they could no longer give the dog everything he needs.
> 
> No, never change these breeders, simply understand that there is an entirely separate class of shepherds out there: the economy car of shepherds so to speak. Despite what people say these dogs are not entirely un-shepherd. There are more aspects to the breed than energy- they are also loyal, biddable, smart, and protective. Now obviously not all pet-line dogs will have these qualities either, but to say those that do shouldn't exist is a little silly.
> 
> There were countless GSDs at the pet festival this weekend and I'd wager 90% were pet-line/rescue. They walked nicely with their people, received pets from all manner of children and adults, and generally seemed to be enjoying the day and bringing joy to their people. The _only_ effect the pet-line dogs have on the breed is in reputation. These dogs are not being included in any of the awesome breeders' lines and therefore are not 'watering down' the breed in that aspect whatsoever.
> 
> The effect on the reputation is real, however, and it's one of the reasons (i think) some people would rather recommend the best pet-line breeders than demonize them altogether. I, at least, would rather see over-sized, washed out shepherds walking around a pet festival happily with their people than hear one story after another about shepherds so nervy and fearful they can't leave the house or with thresholds so low they can't be trusted with the family's children.


You're in Summerville. You're welcome to come meet my working dogs. You'd probably call my female a bit crazy, but I highly doubt that word would be used with my male. While I had a full training weekend I usually attend all local pet anything with my dogs... If you've been to the Marion Square dog show downtown in the past 2 years you've likely seen my dogs work. If you've been to any South Eastern Wildlife expo in the past 4 years you've likely seen my dogs chilling about. If you've been to the Palmetto Islands county park Pet Fest last year or the year before that, you've likely seen my dogs hanging out.

OH, and I run a company, am as busy or busier than anyone else, haven't walked my dogs in... never have walked my dogs actually.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> WLs tend to be less forgiving of idiots. If you dont have some common dog sense a pug is always a good option.
> That being said rescues are not overpopulated with well bred working lines, infact there are probably 100% more poorly bred byb GSDs in the shelters then you will ever find well bred WLs, so that argument is not valid.
> 
> Have you ever owned a WL GSD shepherdmom and if so what lines?


I've owned 3 and they were all Czech lines. 










I also have a WGSL 










and I've had a white. (Though she was a mix) 










and I've had plenty of other breeds too, including Lab mixes, Aussie mix, Great Dane, Akita, a Pit mix, and a Boxer mixed with stupid.










I have not had a pug though


----------



## hunterisgreat

shepherdmom said:


> I've owned 3 and they were all Czech lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have a WGSL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I've had a white. (Though she was a mix)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I've had plenty of other breeds too, including Lab mixes, Aussie mix, Great Dane, Akita, a Pit mix, and a Boxer mixed with stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not had a pug though


The boxer wasn't mixed


----------



## mycobraracr

glowingtoadfly said:


> In another thread, a discussion came up about the CGC and HIC, and how they do or do not make a dog breedworthy. I would like to hear people's opinions on what titles do and do not make a dog worthy of the breed.



It's not about just achieving the title. Getting the title doesn't automatically make a dog "breedworthy". The dog with the title is the same dog it was before the title. What the title shows you is what's in the dog. To the average person, they see a protection routine and think it's all about the biting. When in reality it shows you a lot of different things about the dog. How it works independent of the handler. How it turns on/off or switches drives. It's nerve base when under pressure. Willingness to work with the handler. The list goes on. The key is figuring out either how to see these things when watching the dogs, or finding a breeder who you can trust to do this for you. Watching videos doesn't always help, because you don't get the full picture. 

I personally like to go to breeders that title in multiple venues. To me it shows a well rounded dog. Each venue has it's own difficulties and can show you something about the dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

hunterisgreat said:


> The boxer wasn't mixed


:rofl:


----------



## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> WLs tend to be less forgiving of idiots. If you dont have some common dog sense a pug is always a good option.
> That being said rescues are not overpopulated with well bred working lines, infact there are probably 100% more poorly bred byb GSDs in the shelters then you will ever find well bred WLs, so that argument is not valid.
> 
> Have you ever owned a WL GSD shepherdmom and if so what lines?


I disagree. There are more well bred dogs in rescues and shelters then you think. Your working lines end up there because they are to much to handle and people do not always call the breeders up to admit they failed. I'm positive my male is well bred but way to much dog for his previous owners and found himself in a shelter for a few months. Humans do not like to admit failure.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

shepherdmom said:


> I've owned 3 and they were all Czech lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have a WGSL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I've had a white. (Though she was a mix)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I've had plenty of other breeds too, including Lab mixes, Aussie mix, Great Dane, Akita, a Pit mix, and a Boxer mixed with stupid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not had a pug though


 
So you couldnt handle the Czeck dogs? They werent good pets?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

llombardo said:


> I disagree. There are more well bred dogs in rescues and shelters then you think. Your working lines end up there because they are to much to handle and people do not always call the breeders up to admit they failed. I'm positive my male is well bred but way to much dog for his previous owners and found himself in a shelter for a few months. Humans do not like to admit failure.


Naa the few that are there generally have temperment or health flaws. Generally as a result of being poorly bred from stock thats NOT breedworthy or by drawing the short straw genetics wise. 
Like I said show me WL GSDs there from quality breeders or its all just a story.


----------



## carmspack

are those 3 dogs on the porch the Czech dogs?


----------



## boomer11

Shepherdmom how do you know those are Czech dogs? Did they come with pedigree? They look like washed out pet line to me


----------



## Rei

Bequavious said:


> I don't think anyone is saying the currently awesome breeders should breed less awesome dogs. They are the high end and they're breeding for the high end customers who will continue to work their dogs, maintain the standard, and generally be the epitome of what a GSD/human pair was meant to be. They also happily rehome dogs that went to homes who couldn't handle them originally or homes whose situations changed such that they could no longer give the dog everything he needs.
> 
> No, never change these breeders, simply understand that there is an entirely separate class of shepherds out there: the economy car of shepherds so to speak. Despite what people say these dogs are not entirely un-shepherd. There are more aspects to the breed than energy- they are also loyal, biddable, smart, and protective. Now obviously not all pet-line dogs will have these qualities either, but to say those that do shouldn't exist is a little silly.
> 
> There were countless GSDs at the pet festival this weekend and I'd wager 90% were pet-line/rescue. They walked nicely with their people, received pets from all manner of children and adults, and generally seemed to be enjoying the day and bringing joy to their people. The _only_ effect the pet-line dogs have on the breed is in reputation. These dogs are not being included in any of the awesome breeders' lines and therefore are not 'watering down' the breed in that aspect whatsoever.
> 
> The effect on the reputation is real, however, and it's one of the reasons (i think) some people would rather recommend the best pet-line breeders than demonize them altogether. I, at least, would rather see over-sized, washed out shepherds walking around a pet festival happily with their people than hear one story after another about shepherds so nervy and fearful they can't leave the house or with thresholds so low they can't be trusted with the family's children.


I can agree with this, and this is sort of why I hold a bit of a double standard. On one hand, I am very picky about the breeders that I would buy from. I look for a specific kind of dog and a breeder who I can trust to evaluate all of that. I do think the GSD is a working dog through and through and am not often impressed by breeding programs who do not pursue that ideal. I want a breeder who produces driven, no nonsense dogs with an edge and a serious attitude about working. 

But on the other hand, I genuinely respect a lot of breeders out there who don't produce that. Because they have their own ideal of the breed and I'm not going to tell them that my interpretation is better and more correct than theirs (because who's to say it is?). Would I personally buy from them? Not likely ever. Do I think they have some cool dogs? Sure I do. Would I recommend these breeders, if I knew them? Absolutely, and I have before. And I really don't see that as being detrimental to the breed, nor do I see the existence of pet bred GSDs that way. 

Pet bred dogs have been around a very, very long time now and I don't see them going away. And why should they, honestly? I don't look at my neighbor's pet bred dog and think "wow, that dog is giving the breed a bad name". I think about what a sweet dog he is, how well behaved he is, and what a lovely companion he must be for his owners. People are going to get the dog they want to get, more likely than not. And as long as there are people like that, there is a purpose and market for pet bred dogs. And for me, that's okay. There are people breeding the type of dog that I want and that's what I'll purchase. 

Of course I have my opinions on what a breeder should be and should do, but that doesn't mean the other types of breeders shouldn't exist. I'll support the breeder that produces the breed as I see it to be, but I don't mind recommending different breeders to other people looking for something else. In fact, a lot of the breeders I am interested in are not ones I'd casually recommend to anyone looking for a GSD. It used to annoy me that some people looking for a GSD do not seem to want a GSD at all, but I have my opinion of what the breed is and should be, and they have theirs. I can live with that. Admittedly, sometimes people also just don't seem to care, and that still irritates me, but I guess the question I eventually ask myself is "who is this hurting?", and I can't ever really think of anyone, so I leave it be.


----------



## shepherdmom

boomer11 said:


> Shepherdmom how do you know those are Czech dogs? Did they come with pedigree? They look like washed out pet line to me


Yes of course they came with pedigree's and papers. My breeder was a SAR handler. Both sire and dam were working SAR dogs, and yes I saw them work.
They didn't have titles,they had their SAR certifications.John Henry was certified in both Air Scent and Cadaver. Both were well known in the local SAR community. 

Sire John Henry is listed on this SAR memorial page. http://www.petmemorialcards.com/mem2004-13.htm



> are those 3 dogs on the porch the Czech dogs?


Yes.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Naa the few that are there generally have temperment or health flaws. Generally as a result of being poorly bred from stock thats NOT breedworthy or by drawing the short straw genetics wise.
> Like I said show me WL GSDs there from quality breeders or its all just a story.


We can't. If we did the rescues we are involved with would get sued. So people like you will always be able to claim "real" dogs never show up in rescue.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

shepherdmom said:


> We can't. If we did the rescues we are involved with would get sued. So people like you will always be able to claim "real" dogs never show up in rescue.


And people like you will always be able to claim the opposite. 

Make sure you send one of those many sweet homeless working dogs my way.

Good health, nerves and drive only please. Id prefer a line breeding on Asko vd Lutter since there are so many to choose from. 

Woops dont have a fenced yard Im sure I wont qualify....

You should also let the cops know, who are always starved for green prospects about all the homeless WL dogs y'all got that are too much dog for most normal people.


----------



## robk

I am lost. Why are we talking about rescues in a thread that started out about what titles make a dog breed worthy? I don't see what rescues have anything to do with this subject. The only correlation that I can draw is that there are so many rescues because people are breeding dogs that should not be bred. So back to the original question. What titles make a dog breed worthy? None by them selves. There is more to it than just titles.


----------



## llombardo

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Naa the few that are there generally have temperment or health flaws. Generally as a result of being poorly bred from stock thats NOT breedworthy or by drawing the short straw genetics wise.
> Like I said show me WL GSDs there from quality breeders or its all just a story.


You'll never know they are from quality breeders because the paperwork will never make it to the shelter, so the argument can stop here. I know what I have and you think you know what is there. Maybe you should visit some shelters. Its a very sad situation. I have watched people put down pure bred quality bred dogs because they had parvo, because they could buy a new puppy for the same price it costs to fix the one they just bought. Just because you don't think that way, don't think for a second that 10 other people do.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Pet only quality dogs *do* give GSDs a bad rap. Because folks are sadly used to golden-doodled in GSD clothing, some put off or even are offended when my male cold shoulders them when they pet him. People go "oh is he dangerous" when they see him across a busy restaurant, lock eyes, rapidly close in and then lean over him wondering why he stood up, flagged his tail, and growled. I have to spend 20 minutes explaining "aloof" and "posturing" and how a GSD should act (which isn't like a lab). Or all the nervy dogs that a growl means you're getting bit in 1sec regardless of what you do, rather than what it is for my male... Which is simply communication. People who own shepherds who come talk to me are scared of him simply because of his presence. And that presence is perhaps the most critical part of a GSD that's intangible and impossible to explain, and something I've never felt from a pet or showline.


----------



## blackshep

Saphire said:


> This is where you are wrong. A WL dog does not have to have a job or be worked professionally to be content in a pet home. The dog will need exercise both mentally and physically to be healthy and happy, that SHOULD go for every GSD. There are plenty of ways a pet home can satisfy a sound WL GSD.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Totally agree!! A good WL dog should not fall spectacularly to pieces because it's not got a professional handler keeping it in line. Some level of mental and physical exercise needs to be provided, but the dog should be stable enough and have a good enough 'off switch' to handle a regular home as a pet who gets loved on every day.

They should still be bred to have the drives when those drives are called for, but they should be able to turn them off too.

There will be some dogs who are harder in the litter, or possibly have lower thresholds, and I think those dogs would be better with a more experienced handler, but there will be some differences of personality within every litter that will make some dogs better suited to a pet home and some better suited to a pro's home.

I am a pet home, but I work my dog, we are learning as we go. Not every day, but a few days a week. She's extremely high drive, and yet she's such a happy dog and she's got a great off switch. I don't think her going to a pet home has made her unhappy in any way. 

So I totally disagree with trying to 'dumb down' GSD's for the pet market. I don't think it's needed. There are lots of great breeds out there who are less demanding, so if you don't like the work and the attitude that goes along with a GSD, pick a different breed. I can't imagine being so hung up on the look of a dog that I would want to change what they are, when there are so many beautiful dog breeds to choose from.


----------



## Saphire

Bequavious said:


> Then I'm sure hers has a touch of crazy too  I'm not saying these dogs are unmanageable or horrible pets, I'm just saying that all the best working dogs I've met of any breed had a touch of crazy that I can easily envision being "too much" for your average American pet home. Sure the average home should step up and get better, but people have jobs and kids and kids' activities and well the dog kinda gets left as an afterthought with maybe a walk around the block or the occasional after work fetch session. :shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying the currently awesome breeders should breed less awesome dogs. They are the high end and they're breeding for the high end customers who will continue to work their dogs, maintain the standard, and generally be the epitome of what a GSD/human pair was meant to be. They also happily rehome dogs that went to homes who couldn't handle them originally or homes whose situations changed such that they could no longer give the dog everything he needs.
> 
> No, never change these breeders, simply understand that there is an entirely separate class of shepherds out there: the economy car of shepherds so to speak. Despite what people say these dogs are not entirely un-shepherd. There are more aspects to the breed than energy- they are also loyal, biddable, smart, and protective. Now obviously not all pet-line dogs will have these qualities either, but to say those that do shouldn't exist is a little silly.
> 
> There were countless GSDs at the pet festival this weekend and I'd wager 90% were pet-line/rescue. They walked nicely with their people, received pets from all manner of children and adults, and generally seemed to be enjoying the day and bringing joy to their people. The _only_ effect the pet-line dogs have on the breed is in reputation. These dogs are not being included in any of the awesome breeders' lines and therefore are not 'watering down' the breed in that aspect whatsoever.
> 
> The effect on the reputation is real, however, and it's one of the reasons (i think) some people would rather recommend the best pet-line breeders than demonize them altogether. I, at least, would rather see over-sized, washed out shepherds walking around a pet festival happily with their people than hear one story after another about shepherds so nervy and fearful they can't leave the house or with thresholds so low they can't be trusted with the family's children.


This is what many here are trying to say. A GSD is and should be a working dog, if you want a calm couch potato type dog, don't look for a working dog. Whether showing or working line, GSD'S are supposed to be a working dog...period. There should be no watered down, oversized Golden 's that look like GSD'S. 
I don't think anyone here is busier than me. I am a mother of 2 teenagers, one of which travels through the U.S showcasing his lacrosse. We take him to these events. The other in University...EXPENSIVE! I work full time shift work 12 hour shifts with 1 hour drive each way not to mention overtime to pay for my kids schooling. I train with Gus everyday off for SAR and scent work. We now do some goose work for fun and I teach first aid/cpr on the side. Oh and I am training to certify as a handler for scent work.
Dogs need work...Every dog. If you can't give them that, you don't get one. If you don't like what they are or are meant to be, they are not for you. 
So long as the "pet" demand is looking for oversized, couch potatoes and now dark sables, the BYB will continue to pump out messed up dogs....that is what you see in shelters and rescues.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl

Saphire said:


> So long as the "pet" demand is looking for oversized, couch potatoes and now dark sables, the BYB will continue to pump out messed up dogs....that is what you see in shelters and rescues.


The other thing is it seems everyone wants to be a breeder. Around my area so many are breeding GSD's with no thought to the pedigree match(dogs seldom even have traceable pedigrees!) 
They are breeding for the pet market, because anyone doing serious training won't buy from these 'breeders'
They breed for the "I want a straight backed dog" people. I admin a local GSD owner fb page where so many of the dogs are from pet lines, the owners don't do any sport or competitions with their dogs, they are family pets. 
Some of them are breeding their family pets. It is frustrating.
I post informational articles that I run across, and I do think many are learning from them....I try to do it in a way that isn't causing conflict so they will learn and not put up that defensive barrier we see so often.


----------



## Saphire

onyx'girl said:


> The other thing is it seems everyone wants to be a breeder. Around my area so many are breeding GSD's with no thought to the pedigree match(dogs seldom even have traceable pedigrees!)
> They are breeding for the pet market, because anyone doing serious training won't buy from these 'breeders'
> They breed for the "I want a straight backed dog" people. I admin a local GSD owner fb page where so many of the dogs are from pet lines, the owners don't do any sport or competitions with their dogs, they are family pets.
> Some of them are breeding their family pets. It is frustrating.
> I post informational articles that I run across, and I do think many are learning from them....I try to do it in a way that isn't causing conflict so they will learn and not put up that defensive barrier we see so often.


We have members here on this forum that are byb's. They come across as intelligent in their posts. Some even participate in threads that discuss byb and how damaging it is to the GSD. As long as it continues to be lucrative, it will continue.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Merciel

Drawing from some of the posts on the last couple of pages, I guess ultimately how you answer "what titles make a dog breedworthy?" will depend in part on where you draw the line as to which dogs should be bred.

If you think the breed should be represented _only_ by the best of the best, then you might set the bar pretty high. IPO3 HOT or Grand Champion in conformation, something along those lines.

If you think the top 15% or so of dogs are just fine for breeding, then you might set the bar lower. I _suspect_ that a CGC alone already knocks you down to 15% of the dogs that are out there.

An RN (which I will say firsthand is a title that you can scrape through with a very poor dog and minimal training -- if you want to _win,_ it takes a little more, but just getting the title is IMO nothing and I have seen some truly dreadful performances pass) definitely gets you down to the top 3% or so. People just don't title their dogs very often. And, in my opinion, even the process of getting an RN will tell you _something_ about your dog: how it handles the stress and distraction of show environments, how it handles the close proximity of other dogs and strangers, and how well it performs when the handler is plagued with ring nerves.

I don't think it tells you nearly enough to determine whether a GSD is breedworthy, but I would also set my line much closer to 1% than 3% of dogs that should be bred. There are, currently, a _lot_ of dogs in this world.


----------



## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> So long as the "pet" demand is looking for oversized, couch potatoes and now dark sables, the BYB will continue to pump out messed up dogs....that is what you see in shelters and rescues.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You can see all dogs at shelters and rescues, from messed up BYB dogs to the best show and working lines. It is NOT just BYB dogs that wind up in rescue. 

Oh and BTW where do you think BYB get their breeding dogs from?


----------



## Merciel

For the record, I've never once personally seen a _good_ show or working dog in a shelter. Not of any breed or any line.

I know it happens -- we have threads about it on this very forum occasionally -- but it's exceedingly rare, it doesn't take long for breed fans to mobilize and get those dogs, and in my opinion it undermines the very real and valid arguments that can be made about this topic to rely on one that doesn't have a lot of factual support.


----------



## LaRen616

shepherdmom said:


> You can see all dogs at shelters and rescues, from messed up BYB dogs to the best show and working lines. It is NOT just BYB dogs that wind up in rescue.
> 
> Oh and BTW where do you think BYB get their breeding dogs from?


Maybe there are some show or working line GSDs that end up in rescue but it's not the norm, the majority of the GSDs in rescues and shelters are BYB dogs.


----------



## LaRen616

Merciel said:


> *For the record, I've never once personally seen a good show or working dog in a shelter. Not of any breed or any line.*
> 
> I know it happens -- we have threads about it on this very forum occasionally -- *but it's exceedingly rare*, it doesn't take long for breed fans to mobilize and get those dogs, and in my opinion it undermines the very real and valid arguments that can be made about this topic to rely on one that doesn't have a lot of factual support.


:thumbup:


----------



## boomer11

shepherdmom said:


> Yes of course they came with pedigree's and papers. My breeder was a SAR handler. Both sire and dam were working SAR dogs, and yes I saw them work.
> They didn't have titles,they had their SAR certifications.John Henry was certified in both Air Scent and Cadaver. Both were well known in the local SAR community.
> 
> Sire John Henry is listed on this SAR memorial page. http://www.petmemorialcards.com/mem2004-13.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.


I thought you said you only adopt or rescue? Now you have a famous breeder? Which is it?


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> You can see all dogs at shelters and rescues, from messed up BYB dogs to the best show and working lines. It is NOT just BYB dogs that wind up in rescue.
> 
> Oh and BTW where do you think BYB get their breeding dogs from?


The fact is, it doesn't matter how much drive the dog has, if the owners can't deal with it, it ends up in a shelter. So to "dumb down" the breed to make sure less end up in shelters is also a terrible argument. MOST of the dogs in the humane society here are lower drive breeds, it doesn't keep them out of there.

Fact remains...keep this breed what it was meant to be. Every one of us has seen shepherds that want nothing out of life but to sit on the couch and look almost upset when you make them get up and do something. I've seen so many people that have gotten into agility or obedience/rally that have shepherds that just don't want to do any of that and their handlers are then totally dejected by the fact that their "working breed" can't work.

It's one thing for a "higher drive" dog to get some sort of work/exercise and live perfectly happy in a pet home. It's another thing if a person purchases a GSD, wakes up one morning wanting to do some sort of dog sport and not being able to do it because their "jack of all trades" dog, takes 10 seconds to come to a sit.


----------



## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> Oh and BTW where do you think BYB get their breeding dogs from?


I would say they bought their dog from a BYB and thought ...hey I can do this and make money too! 

Or maybe they bought a titled dog from overseas to breed to their untitled dogs just to keep business coming. Gotta make it look legit right? No thought to lineage etc. All about the almighty buck. This is exactly where dogs get messed up.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## RocketDog

shepherdmom said:


> You can see all dogs at shelters and rescues, from messed up BYB dogs to the best show and working lines. It is NOT just BYB dogs that wind up in rescue.
> 
> *Oh and BTW where do you think BYB get their breeding dogs from?*


*
*
I have to say, personally, that I have never seen anyone who got their dog (GSD, or other purebred) from a _good, reputable_ breeder has not bred their dog. Those usually come with limited registration, contract regarding breeding, some even require spay/neuter. 

Most BYB here, is in the newspaper. Now craiglist is included in there too.


----------



## GrammaD

robk said:


> I am lost. Why are we talking about rescues in a thread that started out about what titles make a dog breed worthy? I don't see what rescues have anything to do with this subject. The only correlation that I can draw is that there are so many rescues because people are breeding dogs that should not be bred. So back to the original question. What titles make a dog breed worthy? None by them selves. There is more to it than just titles.


Yes - taking it back on track.

Last night I had a class and in it were one dog with a CGC and another without - same breed (Am Staff) - guess which one was worthy of breeding? 

While performance titles (actual performance titles not certificates awarded for a dog handling a rudimentary test) help to demonstrate certain attributes in a dog, they are not the whole story. 

The original question, about CGC or HIC being good breed tests, has been addressed several times and the majority of those with performance and show dogs, and all of the experienced breeders, have said no. They do not truly test a dog. They do not even demonstrate solid temperament.

~As to the side track issue - in most litters produced by good breeders (for show or work) there will be dog suited for pet companion homes. There is no need to breed specifically for the pet market. And it should not be considered acceptable to do so.~


----------



## martemchik

RocketDog said:


> [/B]
> I have to say, personally, that I have never seen anyone who got their dog (GSD, or other purebred) from a _good, reputable_ breeder has not bred their dog. Those usually come with limited registration, contract regarding breeding, some even require spay/neuter.
> 
> Most BYB here, is in the newspaper. Now craiglist is included in there too.


Really? I can easily call up 10 breeders right now, that are breeding IPO3, KKL1, all the other fun stuff dogs, and get a fully registered dog/bitch and start breeding them.


----------



## hunterisgreat

GrammaD said:


> ~As to the side track issue - in most litters produced by good breeders (for show or work) there will be dog suited for pet companion homes. There is no need to breed specifically for the pet market. And it should not be considered acceptable to do so.~


With a good breeder, *any* of the pups should be suitable as pets, just the exceptional working ones should be reserved for those who can make use of that.


----------



## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Really? I can easily call up 10 breeders right now, that are breeding IPO3, KKL1, all the other fun stuff dogs, and get a fully registered dog/bitch and start breeding them.


One of mine came with no limited registration. The other was lifted upon demonstrating breed worthiness


----------



## Bequavious

Merciel said:


> I don't think the dogs they're producing are good GSDs. I think most of the homes that buy these dogs should probably go adopt homeless shelter pets, because there are _plenty_ of shelter pets who will make lovely, affectionate, relaxed companions (...but frequently people don't want them because they don't look like Rin Tin Tin). I honestly don't have a ton of empathy either for the breeders producing these dogs or for the people who buy them because they absolutely _must have_ a dog that looks a certain way and comes with certain papers, and a shelter mutt's just not good enough for them.
> 
> Frankly, I get very judgy about that sort of thing.


Yes, and that's why I often try to push people away from shepherds or tell them to get an adult from a rescue. Really I have never met anyone who just wanted the 'look' though. Maybe that says something about the people I've come in contact with, but they'll see some breed description on Animal Planet- fearless, take a bullet for you, versatile, intelligent, brave, athletic, can be trained to do anything, all weather, can be called back off a bite, big softy at heart, adaptable, loyal, want to please, protective of their family- and think "yeah! that's exactly the kind of dog I want!" Which is fine if they're willing to get an adult. By all means go to the shelter/rescue meet some of these dogs and let them help make a good match for you. If they're stuck on getting a puppy, though, (I want to raise him to love me!) I don't have a lot to recommend. Get a different breed OR get really serious about breeder research and start saving up because there's a good chance you'll have to buy from out of state? Unless of course those "Old-fashioned shepherd" people I saw online have half-way decent dogs? :shrug:

Most people just won't get serious enough to find and pay for good breeding, so I just hope they don't buy from sketchville in the trailer home (whose bitch is obviously scared to death of everyone and whose dog can't be let out of the pen because he's "very protective") and wind up in a lawsuit.



hunterisgreat said:


> You're in Summerville. You're welcome to come meet my working dogs. You'd probably call my female a bit crazy, but I highly doubt that word would be used with my male. While I had a full training weekend I usually attend all local pet anything with my dogs... If you've been to the Marion Square dog show downtown in the past 2 years you've likely seen my dogs work. If you've been to any South Eastern Wildlife expo in the past 4 years you've likely seen my dogs chilling about. If you've been to the Palmetto Islands county park Pet Fest last year or the year before that, you've likely seen my dogs hanging out.
> 
> OH, and I run a company, am as busy or busier than anyone else, haven't walked my dogs in... never have walked my dogs actually.


 Yup I've actually met you and watched your dogs work!  (sorry if that's creepy lol, I just visited the IPO club you're in awhile back and recognized you). I'm really not sure why people are taking offense to the 'touch of crazy' comment, though. It's not an insult in the slightest! Do YOU really think your dogs are laid back and chill? If you got mono and did absolutely nothing with them for two weeks straight they'd just lay around the house and sleep?

Of course you don't need to walk your dogs! You have them out at the club all the time _working_, which is frankly much better exercise than a walk anyway. Over eight hours at pet fest alternating meet&greet, with runs on the agility equipment, and crate rest, and my pup was one relaxed baby girl. Take her out for a two hour walk, and unless it's over 80 degrees she comes back just as fresh as she went out. Granted she's only a year old, so she could still mellow out a bit more, but I really hope she doesn't. I want her to work and I want her to be enthusiastic about it, so when she's constantly trying to get my lab to play in the house, or whining and carrying on about the birds in our back yard, or really excited to see SO MANY DOGS, I just take a deep breath and work through it, because I know my relaxed well-mannered lab would never do the things I hope she'll do.



blackshep said:


> So I totally disagree with trying to 'dumb down' GSD's for the pet market. I don't think it's needed. *There are lots of great breeds out there who are less demanding*, so if you don't like the work and the attitude that goes along with a GSD, pick a different breed. I can't imagine being so hung up on the look of a dog that I would want to change what they are, when there are so many beautiful dog breeds to choose from.





Saphire said:


> This is what many here are trying to say. A GSD is and should be a working dog, if you want a calm couch potato type dog, don't look for a working dog. Whether showing or working line, GSD'S are supposed to be a working dog...period. *There should be no watered down, oversized Golden 's that look like GSD'S*


Are Golden's really supposed to be relaxed, though? Aren't they a working breed as well? My lab is chill, but I'm pretty sure he's not breed standard and people on lab forums would probably be ashamed of him. Honestly MOST dogs were breed to do work of some kind and MOST breeds have pet lines that probably can't do that work.

You say it's not right, but where is the morality in dog breeding? Dog breeds only came about because people were breeding what they wanted- people with sheep wanted herding dogs, people who hunted wanted retrievers or hounds, people with nice houses and fancy things wanted guard dogs, etc. Now people want pets, so that is what is being bred. {i]I[/i] don't want one of these dogs, but I'm also not all that worried about the fact that they exist or are being bred. I'm confident that enough people want what I want that the best lines will continue.



Saphire said:


> Dogs need work...Every dog. If you can't give them that, you don't get one. If you don't like what they are or are meant to be, they are not for you.


People are _making_ them what they want, just like people _made_ dogs to be what they wanted back when all of the 'purebred' stuff got started.


----------



## RocketDog

martemchik said:


> Really? I can easily call up 10 breeders right now, that are breeding IPO3, KKL1, all the other fun stuff dogs, and get a fully registered dog/bitch and start breeding them.



Yeah, well, you don't live in BFE like I do, do you? 

Now, I should qualify that by saying pits are _extremely _popular here-- I have no idea about their breeders. But here, in the land of gubmint suspicion, jacked up 4x4's with gun racks (and guns on them), mullets and flannel hoodies, I can say the way you get a dog is you see one in the back of a truck, or you get the Nickel Nik paper and browse.


----------



## GrammaD

hunterisgreat said:


> With a good breeder, *any* of the pups should be suitable as pets, just the exceptional working ones should be reserved for those who can make use of that.


I said suitable for pet companion homes. Putting the onus on the homes, not the dogs.

My Nyx is suitable as a pet, she _is_ my pet I just happen to also want to do IPO etc, but she would not be suited for the vast majority of pet companion homes. She's a very fun handful of baby puppy but I can almost guarantee if she had gone home with, say my neighbor, she would have been returned already.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Bequavious said:


> Yup I've actually met you and watched your dogs work!  (sorry if that's creepy lol, I just visited the IPO club you're in awhile back and recognized you). I'm really not sure why people are taking offense to the 'touch of crazy' comment, though. It's not an insult in the slightest! Do YOU really think your dogs are laid back and chill? If you got mono and did absolutely nothing with them for two weeks straight they'd just lay around the house and sleep?
> 
> Of course you don't need to walk your dogs! You have them out at the club all the time _working_, which is frankly much better exercise than a walk anyway. Over eight hours at pet fest alternating meet&greet, with runs on the agility equipment, and crate rest, and my pup was one relaxed baby girl. Take her out for a two hour walk, and unless it's over 80 degrees she comes back just as fresh as she went out. Granted she's only a year old, so she could still mellow out a bit more, but I really hope she doesn't. I want her to work and I want her to be enthusiastic about it, so when she's constantly trying to get my lab to play in the house, or whining and carrying on about the birds in our back yard, or really excited to see SO MANY DOGS, I just take a deep breath and work through it, because I know my relaxed well-mannered lab would never do the things I hope she'll do.


They/We get offended because folks tend to spread the word that a working dog is like a loaded firearm that should be locked up while home. My male is very laid back and chill, and he would totally be a couch potato for as long as he would be allowed. My female is quite chill as well, but has the "crazy" element. We've had "no work" periods due to injury or otherwise that has been no running or anything for as much as 2 months at a time. No change in the dog.

Walking is a mental exercise more than a physical one anyway. I firmly believe my dogs riding with me in my car are getting the same "roaming pack" stimulation they would get on a walk.


----------



## blackshep

LaRen616 said:


> Maybe there are some show or working line GSDs that end up in rescue but it's not the norm, the majority of the GSDs in rescues and shelters are BYB dogs.


I agree, and I think that is partly because people have more invested financially in the well bred dogs, and because the breeders carefully select homes for their pups. 

They also offer lifetime support for the owners, including taking dogs back if they aren't working out, or life has changed in a way that it's in the dogs best interest to be rehomed, the breeder will make sure their dogs don't end up in a shelter.

Oh and back on point...for me, I like to see at least IPO1 (not just BH), as that take a tremendous amount of time and dedication to even get that, and it incorporates 3 phases of training. With other titles, I'd like to see something above just the very basic title (RN, CGN, DOT/ORT), and possibly have titles in several different areas. Then of course the health testing.


----------



## GrammaD

> Are Golden's really supposed to be relaxed, though? Aren't they a working breed as well? My lab is chill, but I'm pretty sure he's not breed standard and people on lab forums would probably be ashamed of him


Depends upon the lines. Labs, and Goldens to a slightly lesser extent, have a breed split too. Bench bred lab people are happy with chill. Field bred lab people aren't. 

My lab is another dog who would likely have been bounced back to the breeder by the average pet home. And she has a magnificent off switch. There are many field bred labs who do not. "Lazy or crazy" is the rep the breed is getting 

My girl


----------



## Bequavious

Merciel said:


> For the record, I've never once personally seen a _good_ show or working dog in a shelter. Not of any breed or any line.
> 
> I know it happens -- we have threads about it on this very forum occasionally -- but it's exceedingly rare, it doesn't take long for breed fans to mobilize and get those dogs, and in my opinion it undermines the very real and valid arguments that can be made about this topic to rely on one that doesn't have a lot of factual support.


There are 15 certified dogs on our team. I haven't met all of them yet, but three of the ones I have met were rescues. There is a new guy to the team looking for a dog, and within two weeks our TD had a rescue lined up for him to check out. The entire frisbee/trick team at pet fest was made up of rescued dogs. None of this is properly researched with valid statistics of course, and our definition of "good" could be quite different, but I don't think it is "exceedingly rare" to find good working dogs of "any breed or line" in a shelter. Now I'm NOT saying these dogs came from prestigious lines or anything since they were probably just a fluke from throwing two dogs together, but they do exist and I'm not even convinced they're super rare. Heck, even the rat terrier rescue I know has enough drive and stability to be put to work if her owner wanted to.

I DO think it is far less likely to see a dog from a respected breeder in a shelter (and if I were that breeder I'd be pissed!). To say high quality working line dogs shouldn't be sold as pets because they'll end up in the shelter is a little silly too. A _good_ breeder will make the best match they can and happily take the dog back if things don't work out.


----------



## shepherdmom

boomer11 said:


> I thought you said you only adopt or rescue? Now you have a famous breeder? Which is it?


Hey Boomer, I'm old. I only adopt and rescue now. Those Czech dogs were a long long time ago, when I was young and my kids were young it is a very old photo. Buddy is the only one left and he is going to be 13. The puppy is a rescue.


----------



## Blanketback

The thing about labs is that the lazy owners can overfeed them into apathetic obesity. GSDs are too finicky for that


----------



## shemeld135

I didnt know much about titles... but found a link that helped me when looking for a pup. I just searched for a breeder that had the titles, of what i wanted to do with the pup.

German Shepherd Titles & RatingsGerman Shepherd Titles & Ratings


----------



## Merciel

Bequavious said:


> I DO think it is far less likely to see a dog from a respected breeder in a shelter (and if I were that breeder I'd be pissed!).


That's what I meant with my post, although I didn't phrase it as clearly as I should have.

You can find rescue dogs who can do performance sports pretty well, if you know what you're looking for and your sports do not require specialized instincts. I have a lot of friends who run shelter mutts in various sports and do decently well. Arguably (even though he's completely insane), _Pongu_ does decently well.

That's not what I meant when I said I'd never seen a "good working dog" in the pound. What I was trying to get at was that good working purebreds from good breeders are not common in any shelter I've ever seen.


----------



## Bequavious

hunterisgreat said:


> They/We get offended because folks tend to spread the word that a working dog is like a loaded firearm that should be locked up while home. My male is very laid back and chill, and he would totally be a couch potato for as long as he would be allowed. My female is quite chill as well, but has the "crazy" element. We've had "no work" periods due to injury or otherwise that has been no running or anything for as much as 2 months at a time. No change in the dog.
> 
> Walking is a mental exercise more than a physical one anyway. I firmly believe my dogs riding with me in my car are getting the same "roaming pack" stimulation they would get on a walk.


Oh well then I do apologize. I never intended to be offensive, and 'crazy' is a bit of an affectionate term at my house  I'm impressed they handled the inactivity so well. After two days of laying around I can already see a difference in my girl lol.


----------



## Bequavious

Merciel said:


> That's not what I meant when I said I'd never seen a "good working dog" in the pound. What I was trying to get at was that good working purebreds from good breeders are not common in any shelter I've ever seen.


Ah, true story


----------



## Bequavious

GrammaD said:


> My girl


Aww she's got great ups  This is my man


----------



## shepherdmom

LaRen616 said:


> Maybe there are some show or working line GSDs that end up in rescue but it's not the norm, the majority of the GSDs in rescues and shelters are BYB dogs.


I can't post any other ones but I guess I can post mine.. You've already seen her picture she is showline. Her breeder is no longer breeding. But these are not backyard lines. 

My Tasha 

Her sire is Drake Vom Nadelhaus 
Her dam is Xasha Vom Nadelhaus II

Going back is Pacco Vom Nadelhaus
Bella Vom Nadelhaus

Cim Vom Faustbrunnen
Indra Vom Baronenwald

I no longer have his papers because he passed away so long ago, but my Akita was also showline AKC registered as well. 

Now if a nobody like me living out in the middle of nowhere can get two registered showline dogs through rescue how can you even claim they are not the norm? I didn't go looking for papers, I just went with what the rescues recommended for me. 

I got wiggles out of the local shelter. Several people including some here have told me she looks like a PB field lab. 











Claim its not the norm all you like. My experiences have taught me differently.


----------



## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> Really? I can easily call up 10 breeders right now, that are breeding IPO3, KKL1, all the other fun stuff dogs, and get a fully registered dog/bitch and start breeding them.


There is one I know that lets the puppy owners register the dogs she bred with their own kennel name and are now breeding the dogs. 
I find that to be odd because what she is breeding is pretty good(though not sure they are breedworthy), she gets no credit or blame for what she's breeding. I even questioned her about it. It kind of messes up the pedigree information when that is done as well.


----------



## RocketDog

I don't think that black lab looks like a field lab at all. They are usually larger, thinner, more agile, taller. Coat is often very short, not fluffy.


----------



## robk

Why does every breeding thread have to degenerate into a never ending discussion on shelter dogs? ShepherdMom, are you a breeder? Do you title dogs or are working towards a title of any kind for any of your dogs? Do you consider any of your dogs to be breed worthy? If so, why? I am actively working two dogs towards IPO titles. I have an interest in learning more about what makes a dog, breed worthy. I fail to see how the direction of this conversation helps.


----------



## GrammaD

RocketDog said:


> I don't think that black lab looks like a field lab at all. They are usually larger, thinner, more agile, taller. Coat is often very short, not fluffy.


It doesn't to me either but it's irrelevant. Being "pure bred field lines" says diddly squat about the quality of the breeding or the breeder. You can pick up a local paper and find "pure bred field lines" labs for $200 and "pure bred 'English' labs" for slightly more. 

I suspect that the breeder of the GSD whose sire and dam were posted would appreciate a heads up that one of her dogs was dumped - and that it is being posted about on a public forum.


----------



## blackshep

shepherdmom said:


> I no longer have his papers because he passed away so long ago, but my Akita was also showline AKC registered as well.


Any AKC registered dogs can be mated and their offspring registered AKC. It doesn't necessarily mean they came from a good breeder, are terribly nice dogs or that they were biddable/athletic enough to be titled in anything.


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> I suspect that the breeder of the GSD whose sire and dam were posted would appreciate a heads up that one of her dogs was dumped - and that it is being posted about on a public forum.


See you all shout loudly that no real breeder dogs wind up in rescue but when I post one I get this in response. 

Apparently you missed in my post that the breeder is no longer breeding. All of this was checked out before I adopted her. She is mine now and has been for several years. 

Even thought time and time again, they are shot down by the breeders..They do try.... every tattoo or paper is checked out and they try to return to the breeders they just don't want them or like this one are no longer breeding.


----------



## selzer

The dog is what it is, it is breedworthy or it is not breedworthy. The title does not increase breedworthyness or lack of a title does not decrease breedworthy. 

The title is a marker for the buyer that the dog in question has reached a level of training and the dog's owner has either gone through the process himself, bought a dog with those titles because they feel it says something about the dog, or sent the dog away to be titled. It may indicate that the breeder wants to hold to an internal standard for breeding. 

In the process of training and titling a dog, the breeder gets more information about their dog than the actual title gives. I have a bunch of dogs at home with letters after their names that will never be bred. And my best dog is not the one with the CD. The one with the CD is the most obedient and the easiest to train. The schutzhund dog is very similar in temperament to all the others, not the easiest to train or manage, definitely excellent in character. My best dog down there has a measly RN and CGC. 

Titles can give the breeder some information, and buyers less information than it gives breeders, depending on how the title was achieved. 

It really doesn't make sense to me for an ordinary pet owner to require schutzhund championships, or conformation championships on their parents of the puppies they purchase. But for the ordinary pet owner, temperament first and then health is the most important attributes they need in a puppy. They do not need a dog that will hit the sleeve at 45mph with all four feet flying in the air. But if they have a dog that bites the mailman or the neighbor's toddler, they are going to get sued, spend a fortune on the dog, and be heartbroken in the end. 

So some measure of breeding stock being able to function outside of the kennel/home atmosphere is desirable. And yet, a CGC or a RN really doesn't provide much of a temperament test -- a good handler can get either, and a CD on a dog that isn't breedworthy. 

At the same time, requiring schutzhund titles on the parents of your puppy, can net you with more energy and drive than a lot of owners can manage. A lot of owners are out of their depth with a showline dog's energy and drive. And it simply isn't going to fly that people should buy a setter instead. It may be true. But if good breeders will not sell to these people, they will go to whoever will. Some of them will learn enough to manage their dogs. 

Unfortunately, the bottom line is money. A good breeder will spend plenty of money on genetic health screening, training, trialing, and everything else that goes into the process. And at the end of the day Joe Schmoe down the road is selling AKC GSD puppies for $800 or $1000, and the puppy buyer will move on down the road. Joe Schmoe gets his puppies sold at 6-8 weeks and pays much less at every turn. He breeds every bitch he has, and he banks money at the end of the year. He offers no contract, no health guaranty, and most of his puppies are relatively healthy in spite of it all. When buyers have a problem, they have a built in excuse to blame themselves for buying the dog from the cheaper BYB, so other than maybe getting a negative name in the dog-savvy circles, he is unaffected by all of it. 

I really have no answers. There is no way to weed these people out and make laws against them. The average BYB is not a high volume puppy mill. They have pets, and breed them. They do not necessarily keep too many dogs, they do not necessarily have terrible conditions. And the people they sell to are not willing or not able to pay the higher prices, or they are people that breeders really do not want to sell a dog to. People whose method for curing digging in the trash, is tying rotted meat on the dog's muzzle, people who want two puppies at once because they are so cute and will keep each other busy all day while they at school, people who want a dog they can teach to be mean and protect their yard. And many of the people who want the GSD looks, without the GSD work and time. 

My only answer to the problem is to meet people where they are, when they are asking for help, and steering them to dog training classes, where they will meet other dog-savvy people, and will learn more and more about their dogs, and about the dog fancy. 

I can equate it to cycling. We might start out with a Concord or Schwinn, and when we reach that Cannondale or Bianchi, we understand the difference. Sure with plenty of money, or with research we might pass over the Schwinn, Diamondback, and Trek stages and go right to some Eddie Bauer racing bike, but we will be still starting at ground zero anyway, and we won't be ready to enter the Tour d'France just by starting out with the top of the line.

Lots of Good breeders get excellent puppy homes from people who went the BYB route, and committed to the dog, and learned and struggled, and now they want to go to a good breeder with this one. And, they have a much better experience this time, partly because they have a different dog with different strengths and weaknesses, and partly because they have experience.


----------



## Merciel

blackshep said:


> Any AKC registered dogs can be mated and their offspring registered AKC. It doesn't necessarily mean they came from a good breeder, are terribly nice dogs or that they were biddable/athletic enough to be titled in anything.


yepyep

"registered showline" or "looks like a PB lab" does not equal "comes from a serious, ethical breeder."

That's the point people are trying to communicate (and, to indirectly answer robk, is why these discussions tend to veer off onto the shelter tangent at some point -- it's all tangled into the same ball of yarn about who should breed which dogs and why).

Having a clearer understanding of what the distinctions are, and why they matter, is important to the discussion.


----------



## shepherdmom

blackshep said:


> Any AKC registered dogs can be mated and their offspring registered AKC. It doesn't necessarily mean they came from a good breeder, are terribly nice dogs or that they were biddable/athletic enough to be titled in anything.


*sigh* I'm aware. His papers were as impressive as Tashas with well known names. I don't know why I bother. Some of you are convinced that only BYB dogs wind up in shelters/rescues. Keep thinking that.


----------



## carmspack

there has to be a moral or ethical component as well .

If you discover that an animal can not breed good representatives , no matter what the title, the pedigree, the certifications, that animal is to be removed from breeding .

Reading the SV journals and hip results of certain top sires -- high ratio ZW numbers themselves and high ratio schwere hd results , you wonder why the system allows these dogs to continue breeding. There is one I have in mind in particular , a grand dog of the 1990's who is deeply imbedded in show lines .


----------



## GrammaD

shepherdmom said:


> See you all shout loudly that no real breeder dogs wind up in rescue but when I post one I get this in response.
> 
> Apparently you missed in my post that the breeder is no longer breeding. All of this was checked out before I adopted her. She is mine now and has been for several years.
> 
> Even thought time and time again, they are shot down by the breeders..They do try.... every tattoo or paper is checked out and they try to return to the breeders they just don't want them or like this one are no longer breeding.


No one is shouting that no breeder dogs end up in rescue. I've been involved in breed rescue for 20 years and I know that fringe breeder's dogs end up in rescue all the time. Good breeder's dogs rarely.

What that has to do with whether a CGC or HIC makes a dog breed worthy I have no idea. And it certainly says zip about whether WL dogs can be good pets.

Fur Mommy Savior Syndrome aside, what is the relevance?


----------



## Sabis mom

Shepherdmom, the bitch in this photo was a BYB pup that I stole. She went on to work as a PPD/Patrol dog for a number of years and was one of the steadiest dogs I have ever met. In fact we used her as an 'Auntie' for all my fosters and she also raised goats, bunnies, kittens and birds when the need arose. She was NOT well bred, nor breedworthy regardless of work ability or anything else. A good dog is a good dog and they appear everywhere. I am sure that had she ended up in a shelter someone would have claimed she was well bred. Not!


----------



## shepherdmom

robk said:


> Why does every breeding thread have to degenerate into a never ending discussion on shelter dogs? ShepherdMom, are you a breeder? Do you title dogs or are working towards a title of any kind for any of your dogs? Do you consider any of your dogs to be breed worthy? If so, why? I am actively working two dogs towards IPO titles. I have an interest in learning more about what makes a dog, breed worthy. I fail to see how the direction of this conversation helps.


I'm not a breeder. I got involved in this because the original post was not in the breeder section. It was in general info later moved I guess by moderators....I responded that as a pet owner I don't give a flying fig about any of the titles and after all the big hullabaloo and everyone jumping and crying frankly I still don't. A title will never be how I choose a dog. It means nothing, adds nothing to the value of a dog for me.


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> .
> 
> Fur Mommy Savior Syndrome aside, what is the relevance?


I don't remember. You can read back through 11 pages and see how we got off of this tangent. I responded to someone else and then someone responded to me and it snowballed. That's the way things tend to work around here.


----------



## my boy diesel

shepherd mom one of these days you might realize these threads arent all about you 

as for me if i am going to spend a good deal of money on a dog the parents had better be titled in something beyond a cgc or herding cert which any run of the mill mutt could attain and regularly do

significant titles wether working or show might not make the dog but they can prove or disprove what the dog is or what the breeder claims they are

titles arent everything and what it boils down to is look at the pedigrees and dogs behind the titles
that is what is always preached here so not sure why this thread even exists other than to rile everyone up and it has certainly done that


----------



## shepherdmom

Merciel said:


> yepyep
> 
> "registered showline" or "looks like a PB lab" does not equal "comes from a serious, ethical breeder."
> 
> Got to say I don't think I've ever met one of these mythological creatures.
> If big name well known lines don't fit into that category and my breeder who many here have previously claimed must have been a BYB but did take dogs back also doesn't fit then I guess I'm confused as to what is what.
> 
> Is this like the invisible pink unicorn pooping colored rainbows thread?
> 
> That's the point people are trying to communicate (and, to indirectly answer robk, is why these discussions tend to veer off onto the shelter tangent at some point -- it's all tangled into the same ball of yarn about who should breed which dogs and why).
> 
> Having a clearer understanding of what the distinctions are, and why they matter, is important to the discussion.


This I agree with. It seems like the lines are really blurry on what is a BYB vrs Hobby breeder vrs. name breeders vrs that "serious ethical breeder".


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> View attachment 194266
> 
> 
> 
> *Shepherdmom, the bitch in this photo was a BYB pup that I stole. *She went on to work as a PPD/Patrol dog for a number of years and was one of the steadiest dogs I have ever met. In fact we used her as an 'Auntie' for all my fosters and she also raised goats, bunnies, kittens and birds when the need arose. She was NOT well bred, nor breedworthy regardless of work ability or anything else. A good dog is a good dog and they appear everywhere. I am sure that had she ended up in a shelter someone would have claimed she was well bred. Not!


Did you actually steal someone's dog?

What were you patrolling with stolen property? Police departments aren't usually happy with employing thieves. I hope. And police officers do understand the consequences of stealing someone's property. So what kind of patrolling are we talking about?


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> shepherd mom one of these days you might realize these threads arent all about you


Of course its about me.... If its not about me it should be.   :angel:


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> Did you actually steal someone's dog?
> 
> What were you patrolling with stolen property? Police departments aren't usually happy with employing thieves. I hope. And police officers do understand the consequences of stealing someone's property. So what kind of patrolling are we talking about?


Perhaps stolen is a strong term, lets just say that he and I negotiated terms for the 6 week old puppy he was "just gonna shoot her, I'm sick of feeding her everyday"


----------



## Saphire

shepherdmom said:


> This I agree with. It seems like the lines are really blurry on what is a BYB vrs Hobby breeder vrs. name breeders vrs that "serious ethical breeder".


There are 2 types of breeders. 

1. Serious ethical breeder who proves their dogs PRIOR to breeding

2. BYB

Sooo if you are not #1 you are a BYB
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> Perhaps stolen is a strong term, lets just say that he and I negotiated terms for the 6 week old puppy he was "just gonna shoot her, I'm sick of feeding her everyday"


That is a lot different than stealing, you purchased a puppy from someone who didn't want the puppy. 

Sometimes you get a great puppy for a song or a _steal_. But there are people on this site that believe that if a dog is in a poor situation it would be alright to go and unhook the dog and "rescue" it. And that is what I was worried you were talking about.


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> Got to say I don't think I've ever met one of these mythological creatures.


If you only do rescue, you probably haven't. That's the point I'm (repeatedly) trying to convey.

Let me pull out the show catalog for one of the bigger obedience trials I did this year. Let's look at the kennel names for some of the Utility B dogs. (I'm picking this class deliberately because people trialing in Utility B tend to be pretty hardcore and very selective about where they buy their dogs. I am _not_ choosing based on score, although that would further narrow it down to the most hardcore of the hardcore.)

I see: Cobell (Fox Terrier), Cresthill (Labrador Retriever), Fireside (Golden Retriever), Golly G (Golden Retriever), Rhumbline (Labrador), Sprite-Fanfare (Belgian Tervuren; Sprite and Fanfare are two separate breeders), Gaylan (Golden), Fyrethorn (Irish Setter).

_Those_ are "big name well known" breeders in the competition world. Those are dogs you are not going to find in a shelter. As a rescuer, you're never going to meet those dogs. You will probably never hear their kennel names.

But that doesn't make them invisible pink unicorns. It just makes them good breeders.


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> That is a lot different than stealing, you purchased a puppy from someone who didn't want the puppy.
> 
> Sometimes you get a great puppy for a song or a _steal_. But there are people on this site that believe that if a dog is in a poor situation it would be alright to go and unhook the dog and "rescue" it. And that is what I was worried you were talking about.


No paying. We agreed that I was TAKING her and wouldn't report him for keeping her locked in basement and throwing her across the room at me. We further agreed that if he touched me, he was going to jail and if he EVER advertised another litter I would see that he was charged for animal abuse, fraudulent advertising and violations of the Animal Pedigree Act.


----------



## sitstay

selzer said:


> And yet, a CGC or a RN really doesn't provide much of a temperament test -- a good handler can get either, and a CD on a dog that isn't breedworthy.


But you routinely breed females that have nothing more than a CGC and an RN. If those aren't providing "much of a temperament test", why are you breeding dogs with only those "titles"? 

Sue, I think you are the best placed breeder on this particular forum to answer the original question. What about a CGC certificate and a beginner's rally title were you comfortable enough with to breed from them? 

Rather than asking buyers what those things mean, asking a breeder who uses them would gain more understanding of the thought process involved (I think). 
Sheilah


----------



## LaRen616

sit said:


> But you routinely breed females that have nothing more than a CGC and an RN. If those aren't providing "much of a temperament test", why are you breeding dogs with only those "titles"?
> 
> Sue, I think you are the best placed breeder on this particular forum to answer the original question. What about a CGC certificate and a beginner's rally title were you comfortable enough with to breed from them?
> 
> Rather than asking buyers what those things mean, asking a breeder who uses them would gain more understanding of the thought process involved (I think).
> Sheilah


:thumbup:


----------



## boomer11

A breeder touting their dog has a cgc is like touting you graduated high school. I guess someone somewhere would be impressed but most would chuckle that you're even proud of that.


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> No paying. We agreed that I was TAKING her and wouldn't report him for keeping her locked in basement and throwing her across the room at me. We further agreed that if he touched me, he was going to jail and if he EVER advertised another litter I would see that he was charged for animal abuse, fraudulent advertising and violations of the Animal Pedigree Act.


If you could prove these allegations then you should have charged him.

If you couldn't prove these allegations than you stole a puppy from someone. And maybe in your circumstances it was all true. But what if it wasn't true. What if a cop comes over and says, if you do not GIVE me this puppy, I am going to make your life miserable. I will hound you and bring down Animal Rights people on you. 

If someone has plenty of money and can fight you, with their own lawyers, than they may be able to do something about such an abuse of power. But most people, whether they are actually in any violations or not, might not want to fight abuses of the law, because where do you have to go? The law. 

I don't like hearing about this sort of stuff. 

And there is no "Animal Pedigree Act."

This is why most police officers are not allowed to accept gifts from individuals.


----------



## GrammaD

selzer said:


> And there is no "Animal Pedigree Act."


Animal Genetics - Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC)


----------



## carmspack

yes there is an Animal Pedigree Act , enforced federally , by the RCMP in Canada .


----------



## Sabis mom

selzer said:


> If you could prove these allegations then you should have charged him.
> 
> If you couldn't prove these allegations than you stole a puppy from someone. And maybe in your circumstances it was all true. But what if it wasn't true. What if a cop comes over and says, if you do not GIVE me this puppy, I am going to make your life miserable. I will hound you and bring down Animal Rights people on you.
> 
> If someone has plenty of money and can fight you, with their own lawyers, than they may be able to do something about such an abuse of power. But most people, whether they are actually in any violations or not, might not want to fight abuses of the law, because where do you have to go? The law.
> 
> I don't like hearing about this sort of stuff.
> 
> And there is no "Animal Pedigree Act."
> 
> This is why most police officers are not allowed to accept gifts from individuals.


 Animal Pedigree Act

The Animal Pedigree Act states that no animal may be sold or represented and a Purebred if registration is not possible, not a direct quote.

And I am not a Police Officer. 

And I stand by my decision. I am a female, he had a good 50-60 lbs on me, and I was alone. He had every opportunity to stop me or report me, he KNEW he was wrong and sucked it up.


----------



## Lilie

hunterisgreat said:


> They/We get offended because folks tend to spread the word that a working dog is like a loaded firearm that should be locked up while home.


Just as people spread the word that a GSD that doesn't do formal 'work or sports' is a couch potato.


----------



## Saphire

selzer said:


> If you could prove these allegations then you should have charged him.
> 
> If you couldn't prove these allegations than you stole a puppy from someone. And maybe in your circumstances it was all true. But what if it wasn't true. What if a cop comes over and says, if you do not GIVE me this puppy, I am going to make your life miserable. I will hound you and bring down Animal Rights people on you.
> 
> If someone has plenty of money and can fight you, with their own lawyers, than they may be able to do something about such an abuse of power. But most people, whether they are actually in any violations or not, might not want to fight abuses of the law, because where do you have to go? The law.
> 
> I don't like hearing about this sort of stuff.
> 
> And there is no "Animal Pedigree Act."
> 
> This is why most police officers are not allowed to accept gifts from individuals.


Get over yourself!

You weren't there...how very godly of you.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Chris Wild

Someone in the other thread that spurned this one commented that it seems that the people who say titles are meaningless (SchH in particular) are almost always people who have never stepped out on a field to title a dog. I agree. You don't tend to hear that from people who are experienced at it and therefore know firsthand what it requires. It's always the folks on the sidelines who say it doesn't prove anything.

I'd say the same tends to go for those who say working lines can't be pets. That opinion also seems to be exclusively held by people who have little or no experience actually living with them, not by those who do. But I'm going to try to avoid that tangent to the discussion and get back to titles.

The bottom line is that to produce a good dog requires good genetics. And temperament is genetic. Therefore, producing good temperament requires breeding dogs with good genetics for temperament. Part of that can be determined by looking at the pedigree and relatives. But one must also look at the individual dogs themselves.

Titles are a means to testing and proving temperament. The existance of a title does not mean a dog is breedworthy, only that it has been tested and, provided things were done correctly and there was no cheating involved, has met a minimum standard. What a title does say is that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time working with that dog to train it for that title, and in doing so that person has a pretty good understanding of the inner workings of the dog and it's core character. And thus that person can accurately assess whether or not that dog has a temperament suitable for breeding, and then use the additional info gained about the dog's strengths and weaknesses to make a good breeding decisions. 

The more difficult, varied and stringent the requirements to earn a title, the more that is learned about the dog along the way. Obedience tells more about a dog than Rally. Obedience and tracking titles tell more about a dog than just one or the other. Something like SchH that involves 3 very different phases tells even more yet.

I've put SchH titles on several dogs. On every single one I knew before trial day if it was breedworthy or not based on what I learned on the long road to get that title. On the ones I knew were breedworthy I did it to prove to others that the dog was breedworthy and that I'd done the work to gain the knowledge of the dog. There were a couple I titled anyway even though I knew from working them that they really weren't breedworthy. By the "rules" the title says they are, but I knew that they were not. I wouldn't have learned that if not for the work put in.

I've also done AKC and UKC obedience and rally, SDA obedience, protection and tracking, and put CGCs on all of them except for my youngster at home that I haven't gotten around to yet. And therapy dog certifications on some of those vicious SchH dogs too. I can say from personal experience that I didn't learn much about the dogs doing those other titles that I hadn't already learned from working them in SchH. Actually the only thing it really proved is that they could easily transition from working outdoors with lots of space to the crowd and noise of an AKC type venue. But then I already knew that wouldn't be a problem from just living with them and taking them to loud and crowded places outside of training.

I can also say from personal experience that there is a whole lot to be uncovered and learned about a dog in SchH that absolutely cannot be uncovered through things like obedience and rally, and certainly not with a CGC or HIC. With regard to the CGC and TDIs, they provide zero additional information. Those tests are so remedial that there is absolutely no comparison. Not even to a BH, much less the other titles we achieved. Those were done strictly for the purpose of showing others that the SchH titles did not equate to biting machines. In addition to doing lots of CGCs on my own dogs I was an evaluator for several years and did dozens upon dozens of CGC tests and can guarantee you that absolutely nothing about that test even comes close to a decent evaluation of temperament for breeding. 

With regard to SchH and other breed/type specific tests (as opposed to "all breed" things like obedience and rally), part of what is tested in the process of titling involves specific skillsets.. such as the ability to use the nose in tracking or the ability to engage a human in a fight in protection. Sometimes these skillsets are an important part of testing the dogs for unique traits that their breeds are supposed to have, which is why we have field trials for sporting breeds and earthdog trials for terriers. But much of titling tests other core aspects that must be present in every dog, no matter it's breed and no matter if it's intended to be a pet or a working dog: trainability, stability, ability to cope with stress without falling apart or getting hectic, ability to focus amidst distraction and excessive stimulation, ability to maintain self control and remain clear headed and responsive to the handler when in a state of high arousal/drive and under stress. Protection is far more than "hitting a sleeve at 45mph". It is far more than drive and fight. It is equally about the dog's ability to cope with stress, modulate his drive appropriately and control it, and remain clear headed and obedient which are essentially extreme tests of character and nerve.

I have never understood the "titles don't matter because I just want a pet". To me, that is akin to saying that temperament, nerve and ability to cope with stress with a clear head aren't important for "just pets". I can see that 45mph to the sleeve, or how good a dog is at tracking, not mattering for a pet, but there is so much more that titles test for beyond those. Things that are vitally important for any dog, and should be just as important to the pet owner as they are to someone with big aspirations of trophies and ribbons. Perhaps even more so when one takes into consideration the fact that a pet owner probably doesn't have the same level of knowledge, experience and resources that a serious trainer might and thus be less able to properly recognize and cope with temperament issues and behavioral problems.


----------



## selzer

sit said:


> But you routinely breed females that have nothing more than a CGC and an RN. If those aren't providing "much of a temperament test", why are you breeding dogs with only those "titles"?
> 
> Sue, I think you are the best placed breeder on this particular forum to answer the original question. What about a CGC certificate and a beginner's rally title were you comfortable enough with to breed from them?
> 
> Rather than asking buyers what those things mean, asking a breeder who uses them would gain more understanding of the thought process involved (I think).
> Sheilah


Arwen and Babs had CDs, RAs, and CGCs, Jenna has an RN and a CGC, and Odie has all the Schutzhund stuff. So one of my breeding bitches has an RN and a CGC. But whatever -- she is my best dam. No amount of anything in the ring can prove what kind of producer and what kind of a mother a dog will be. When I had my own dogs, Dubya was not titled, and Rushie had an RN, CGC, and TDI -- which is a glorified CGC. I could have gone farther with him, but didn't like the results of the first litter I had with him, and did not breed him again. 

Almost all my dogs have an RN and a CGC. Some of them have more. And the puppies are not there yet. But, in the training process you can determine a lot about a dog's character. You can drop a dog out of your breeding program because of what you see in training whether or not they are titled. Most of my dogs have been titled and never bred.


----------



## Jack's Dad

There is no title in dogdom, that in and of itself will prove a dog "breed worthy". 

There are over four hundred thousand GSDs registered every year in the U.S..
That doesn't count the ones who aren't registered.

There are not enough so called ethical breeders to fill that market and I believe that is what Shepherdsmom and others are pointing out.

In the U.S. people want what they want and they want it now. This is unlikely to ever change. This discussion is not going to change it.

Very few people in real life have time to spend on dog forums.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Jack's Dad said:


> There is no title in dogdom, that in and of itself will prove a dog "breed worthy".
> 
> There are over four hundred thousand GSDs registered every year in the U.S..
> That doesn't count the ones who aren't registered.
> 
> There are not enough so called ethical breeders to fill that market and I believe that is what Shepherdsmom and others are pointing out.
> 
> In the U.S. people want what they want and they want it now. This is unlikely to ever change. This discussion is not going to change it.
> 
> Very few people in real life have time to spend on dog forums.


You saying none of us are "in real life"? lol


----------



## LaRen616

Jack's Dad said:


> Very few people in real life have time to spend on dog forums.


That's because they are all on Facebook.


----------



## Jack's Dad

hunterisgreat said:


> You saying none of us are "in real life"? lol


I'm saying that compared to the number of GSDs that are produced yearly the number of those who actively are involved in sport or show is miniscule.

Of those who are involved heavily in IPO or show, only a small portion of them are breeders.


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> Animal Pedigree Act
> 
> The Animal Pedigree Act states that no animal may be sold or represented and a Purebred if registration is not possible, not a direct quote.
> 
> And I am not a Police Officer.
> 
> And I stand by my decision. I am a female, he had a good 50-60 lbs on me, and I was alone. He had every opportunity to stop me or report me, he KNEW he was wrong and sucked it up.


Ok, Canada, that makes sense. I hadn't heard of that one. I don't like the premise of forcing someone to turn over a critter to another person. If they are breaking a law, then turn them in, fine them, whatever you do. Seize the animals under the law, whatever. 

But gaining off of someone by telling them that otherwise you will turn them in is some form of blackmail, and it does scream of corruption.

Animal activists often believe that they should skirt laws to help individual creatures, when in fact other creatures will continue to be abused/neglected, and only the one there looking at you has been helped at all.


----------



## Merciel

Chris Wild said:


> The bottom line is that to produce a good dog requires good genetics. And temperament is genetic. Therefore, producing good temperament requires breeding dogs with good genetics for temperament. Part of that can be determined by looking at the pedigree and relatives. But one must also look at the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> Titles are a means to testing and proving temperament.


I won't quote the whole post (although it all does deserve to be quoted) but there, that's the answer to the thread.


----------



## RocketDog

Especially the end of Chris' post.


----------



## Sabis mom

Jack's Dad said:


> There is no title in dogdom, that in and of itself will prove a dog "breed worthy".
> 
> There are over four hundred thousand GSDs registered every year in the U.S..
> That doesn't count the ones who aren't registered.
> 
> There are not enough so called ethical breeders to fill that market and I believe that is what Shepherdsmom and others are pointing out.
> 
> In the U.S. people want what they want and they want it now. This is unlikely to ever change. This discussion is not going to change it.
> 
> Very few people in real life have time to spend on dog forums.


I came to this forum searching for a breeder. What I have found, overwhelmingly is the same snobbery and division that creates BYB's. Good breeders don't want to sell to pet homes. And until they recognize that the plague will continue. Rather then dismissing me with a rude We don't sell to pet homes, perhaps a chat about what GOOD breeder might be able to get me what I want would have been more appropriate. 
Even an idiot like me recognizes that the best of dogs do not produce 100% performance pups. And maybe instead of being appalled that 2 of my dogs are poorly bred, breeders should look at the time, energy and cold, hard cash it takes to deal with a genetic nightmare. The fact that my one dog lived 13 years with me, another is going on 11 years in my home and my lovely 3 year old has cost me well over 10 grand in vet bills, with no end in sight.
If GOOD breeders were really that bothered by BYBs they would work with those of us who aren't rich, work too much to spend every weekend at a trial and haven't the luxury of being in one of the few fields that work dogs.

Hopefully I'll get my pup, and I will give praise to the FEW breeders who didn't dismiss me out of hand.

And before anyone jumps on me, I'm retired and on to my second career.


----------



## Sabis mom

'Animal activists often believe that they should skirt laws to help individual creatures, when in fact other creatures will continue to be abused/neglected, and only the one there looking at you has been helped at all.' 

I may not have changed the world, but I changed the world for that dog. 
In return she changed my life.


----------



## martemchik

Sabis mom said:


> I came to this forum searching for a breeder. What I have found, overwhelmingly is the same snobbery and division that creates BYB's. Good breeders don't want to sell to pet homes. And until they recognize that the plague will continue. Rather then dismissing me with a rude We don't sell to pet homes, perhaps a chat about what GOOD breeder might be able to get me what I want would have been more appropriate.


Not sure who you've been talking to but most breeders sell to pet homes. Of course they PREFER to sell to a sport or working home, but those are so few and far (see Jack's Dad's post) that they have no other choice but to sell to "pet homes." I know a lot of breeders, they cannot sell their 7-10 puppies a litter to sport homes, its impossible. There aren't that many people in Schutzhund looking for puppies.


----------



## selzer

selzer said:


> ...
> 
> It really doesn't make sense to me for an ordinary pet owner to require schutzhund championships, or conformation championships on their parents of the puppies they purchase. But for the ordinary pet owner, temperament first and then health is the most important attributes they need in a puppy. They do not need a dog that will hit the sleeve at 45mph with all four feet flying in the air. But if they have a dog that bites the mailman or the neighbor's toddler, they are going to get sued, spend a fortune on the dog, and be heartbroken in the end.
> 
> So some measure of breeding stock being able to function outside of the kennel/home atmosphere is desirable. And yet, a CGC or a RN really doesn't provide much of a temperament test -- a good handler can get either, and a CD on a dog that isn't breedworthy.
> 
> At the same time, requiring schutzhund titles on the parents of your puppy, can net you with more energy and drive than a lot of owners can manage. A lot of owners are out of their depth with a showline dog's energy and drive. And it simply isn't going to fly that people should buy a setter instead. It may be true. But if good breeders will not sell to these people, they will go to whoever will. Some of them will learn enough to manage their dogs.
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't suggesting that a dog who can excel in schutzhund would be more likely to bite at the wrong time, the opposite really. I was explainging why it may not SEEM important for a dog to do bitework or tracking, etc, but if you have a dog who is a bite-risk -- poor temperament, than you are going to be hurting. I wasn't very clear on that.

I really wasn't saying either that schutzhund dogs would produce dogs that wouldn't make good pets. Someone who plans to have a dog decorate his living room and trot around the block with him once a day so the neighbors can see him, probably shouldn't look for a dog out of schutzhund _champions_-- much more energy and drive than what it takes to title a dog. 

Working lines do tend to have more energy and stronger drives than showlines, and they can be more of a pain for your average pet owner. That doesn't mean they cannot make fine pets. It is just something to consider when you select a breed and a line of dogs. One needs to be realistic with the amount of time and energy they have to put into training and exercise. Of course they can be good pets.


----------



## LaRen616

Sabis mom said:


> I came to this forum searching for a breeder. What I have found, overwhelmingly is the same snobbery and division that creates BYB's. Good breeders don't want to sell to pet homes. And until they recognize that the plague will continue. Rather then dismissing me with a rude We don't sell to pet homes, perhaps a chat about what GOOD breeder might be able to get me what I want would have been more appropriate.
> Even an idiot like me recognizes that the best of dogs do not produce 100% performance pups. And maybe instead of being appalled that 2 of my dogs are poorly bred, breeders should look at the time, energy and cold, hard cash it takes to deal with a genetic nightmare. The fact that my one dog lived 13 years with me, another is going on 11 years in my home and my lovely 3 year old has cost me well over 10 grand in vet bills, with no end in sight.
> If GOOD breeders were really that bothered by BYBs they would work with those of us who aren't rich, work too much to spend every weekend at a trial and haven't the luxury of being in one of the few fields that work dogs.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get my pup, and I will give praise to the FEW breeders who didn't dismiss me out of hand.
> 
> And before anyone jumps on me, I'm retired and on to my second career.


I have heard stories of some breeders lowering the price of their puppies if they feel that they found the perfect puppy owner for a particular puppy. Some reputable breeders sometimes charge less for older puppies or puppies that were given back to them for some reason (family lost their home or job, they had to move, etc.)


----------



## RocketDog

selzer said:


> Working lines do tend to have more energy and stronger drives than showlines, and they can be more of a pain for your average pet owner. That doesn't mean they cannot make fine pets. .



_Possibly_, but SL dogs bred for conformation and money are also a pain for your average pet owner, if the genetics aren't good. I would rather see a WL with a stable, reliable, steady temperament out of solid genetics in a pet home than a fear-aggressive, or plain fearful, unbalanced dog that is sharp in an average pet home. One is a liability to your furniture or rugs, the other is a liability to people and animals.


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> There are not enough so called ethical breeders to fill that market and I believe that is what Shepherdsmom and others are pointing out.


Is this really true?

I know that it's been argued in the past that the _price point_ for ethical breeders is too high for some puppy buyers. And sure, I think there is probably some truth to that. (I can't remember if this was something that you specifically argued, though, and if it wasn't then I don't want to misattribute it to you.)

But I don't know if it's accurate to say that people who are willing to pay the going rate for a "good" puppy can't find a breeder willing to sell them one purely because of insufficient supply.

Discounting situations where a buyer was turned away because a particular litter wasn't a good match for them, or a breeding didn't take, or a person set their price limit unrealistically low, I haven't seen anyone come up actually empty-handed on a puppy search.

I am asking this as an honest question: Is that a thing that happens? Has anyone else seen it happen? My perception is that it's really not difficult to get a puppy meeting your criteria, assuming that you can afford the going rate and are willing to wait six months or so for a planned breeding. Am I wrong on that?


----------



## selzer

Sabis mom said:


> I came to this forum searching for a breeder. What I have found, overwhelmingly is the same snobbery and division that creates BYB's. Good breeders don't want to sell to pet homes. And until they recognize that the plague will continue. Rather then dismissing me with a rude We don't sell to pet homes, perhaps a chat about what GOOD breeder might be able to get me what I want would have been more appropriate.
> Even an idiot like me recognizes that the best of dogs do not produce 100% performance pups. And maybe instead of being appalled that 2 of my dogs are poorly bred, breeders should look at the time, energy and cold, hard cash it takes to deal with a genetic nightmare. The fact that my one dog lived 13 years with me, another is going on 11 years in my home and my lovely 3 year old has cost me well over 10 grand in vet bills, with no end in sight.
> If GOOD breeders were really that bothered by BYBs they would work with those of us who aren't rich, work too much to spend every weekend at a trial and haven't the luxury of being in one of the few fields that work dogs.
> 
> Hopefully I'll get my pup, and I will give praise to the FEW breeders who didn't dismiss me out of hand.
> 
> And before anyone jumps on me, I'm retired and on to my second career.


In show lines or in working lines you will find puppies that are not going to be the right fit for show or working homes. ALL breeders must then sell to pet homes. I think that some breeders may be looking to sell only to people who are serious about working with the dog, engaging in higher level training and possibly trialing with the dog, because the dogs require higher energy and an outlet for their intelligence. 

Just because a dog would not make a good schutzhund or MWD prospect, does not mean the dog will not require training, etc. 

I am surprised that you have found breeders who are only interested in working homes. And yes, your experience with the dogs you have would be a positive for most breeders, unless, it came across like one person that I turned down: my first GSD was dumb, I got rid of him. My second was dumb too. I had to find him a home. His last five dogs were dumb -- at some point, you have to wonder if the guy thought the dog should be able to speak to him or something. 



Sabis mom said:


> 'Animal activists often believe that they should skirt laws to help individual creatures, when in fact other creatures will continue to be abused/neglected, and only the one there looking at you has been helped at all.'
> 
> I may not have changed the world, but I changed the world for that dog.
> In return she changed my life.



At least your situation did not put money into the hands of the person who was violating whatever he was violating.


----------



## Sabis mom

Merciel said:


> Is this really true?
> 
> I know that it's been argued in the past that the _price point_ for ethical breeders is too high for some puppy buyers. And sure, I think there is probably some truth to that. (I can't remember if this was something that you specifically argued, though, and if it wasn't then I don't want to misattribute it to you.)
> 
> But I don't know if it's accurate to say that people who are willing to pay the going rate for a "good" puppy can't find a breeder willing to sell them one purely because of insufficient supply.
> 
> Discounting situations where a buyer was turned away because a particular litter wasn't a good match for them, or a breeding didn't take, or a person set their price limit unrealistically low, I haven't seen anyone come up actually empty-handed on a puppy search.
> 
> I am asking this as an honest question: Is that a thing that happens? Has anyone else seen it happen? My perception is that it's really not difficult to get a puppy meeting your criteria, assuming that you can afford the going rate and are willing to wait six months or so for a planned breeding. Am I wrong on that?


I have been looking for 2 YEARS! I was explicit that I would pay what I needed to, travel where I needed to, wait as long as I needed to and if it was required I WAS willing to title, within reason. Of the dozen breeders that I have contacted all but 3 turned me down, flat. Some really rudely.


----------



## RocketDog

I know there are breeders on the other side of the state that I would contact if I were in the market for another pup right now. I do not believe they require a person to participate in IPO or another similar venue. 

Are you looking at kennels or breeders that produce very high-level competition dogs, that are highly in demand? That could be a different story.


----------



## mycobraracr

Chris Wild said:


> Someone in the other thread that spurned this one commented that it seems that the people who say titles are meaningless (SchH in particular) are almost always people who have never stepped out on a field to title a dog. I agree. You don't tend to hear that from people who are experienced at it and therefore know firsthand what it requires. It's always the folks on the sidelines who say it doesn't prove anything.
> 
> I'd say the same tends to go for those who say working lines can't be pets. That opinion also seems to be exclusively held by people who have little or no experience actually living with them, not by those who do. But I'm going to try to avoid that tangent to the discussion and get back to titles.
> 
> The bottom line is that to produce a good dog requires good genetics. And temperament is genetic. Therefore, producing good temperament requires breeding dogs with good genetics for temperament. Part of that can be determined by looking at the pedigree and relatives. But one must also look at the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> Titles are a means to testing and proving temperament. The existance of a title does not mean a dog is breedworthy, only that it has been tested and, provided things were done correctly and there was no cheating involved, has met a minimum standard. What a title does say is that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time working with that dog to train it for that title, and in doing so that person has a pretty good understanding of the inner workings of the dog and it's core character. And thus that person can accurately assess whether or not that dog has a temperament suitable for breeding, and then use the additional info gained about the dog's strengths and weaknesses to make a good breeding decisions.
> 
> The more difficult, varied and stringent the requirements to earn a title, the more that is learned about the dog along the way. Obedience tells more about a dog than Rally. Obedience and tracking titles tell more about a dog than just one or the other. Something like SchH that involves 3 very different phases tells even more yet.
> 
> I've put SchH titles on several dogs. On every single one I knew before trial day if it was breedworthy or not based on what I learned on the long road to get that title. On the ones I knew were breedworthy I did it to prove to others that the dog was breedworthy and that I'd done the work to gain the knowledge of the dog. There were a couple I titled anyway even though I knew from working them that they really weren't breedworthy. By the "rules" the title says they are, but I knew that they were not. I wouldn't have learned that if not for the work put in.
> 
> I've also done AKC and UKC obedience and rally, SDA obedience, protection and tracking, and put CGCs on all of them except for my youngster at home that I haven't gotten around to yet. And therapy dog certifications on some of those vicious SchH dogs too. I can say from personal experience that I didn't learn much about the dogs doing those other titles that I hadn't already learned from working them in SchH. Actually the only thing it really proved is that they could easily transition from working outdoors with lots of space to the crowd and noise of an AKC type venue. But then I already knew that wouldn't be a problem from just living with them and taking them to loud and crowded places outside of training.
> 
> I can also say from personal experience that there is a whole lot to be uncovered and learned about a dog in SchH that absolutely cannot be uncovered through things like obedience and rally, and certainly not with a CGC or HIC. With regard to the CGC and TDIs, they provide zero additional information. Those tests are so remedial that there is absolutely no comparison. Not even to a BH, much less the other titles we achieved. Those were done strictly for the purpose of showing others that the SchH titles did not equate to biting machines. In addition to doing lots of CGCs on my own dogs I was an evaluator for several years and did dozens upon dozens of CGC tests and can guarantee you that absolutely nothing about that test even comes close to a decent evaluation of temperament for breeding.
> 
> With regard to SchH and other breed/type specific tests (as opposed to "all breed" things like obedience and rally), part of what is tested in the process of titling involves specific skillsets.. such as the ability to use the nose in tracking or the ability to engage a human in a fight in protection. Sometimes these skillsets are an important part of testing the dogs for unique traits that their breeds are supposed to have, which is why we have field trials for sporting breeds and earthdog trials for terriers. But much of titling tests other core aspects that must be present in every dog, no matter it's breed and no matter if it's intended to be a pet or a working dog: trainability, stability, ability to cope with stress without falling apart or getting hectic, ability to focus amidst distraction and excessive stimulation, ability to maintain self control and remain clear headed and responsive to the handler when in a state of high arousal/drive and under stress. Protection is far more than "hitting a sleeve at 45mph". It is far more than drive and fight. It is equally about the dog's ability to cope with stress, modulate his drive appropriately and control it, and remain clear headed and obedient which are essentially extreme tests of character and nerve.
> 
> I have never understood the "titles don't matter because I just want a pet". To me, that is akin to saying that temperament, nerve and ability to cope with stress with a clear head aren't important for "just pets". I can see that 45mph to the sleeve, or how good a dog is at tracking, not mattering for a pet, but there is so much more that titles test for beyond those. Things that are vitally important for any dog, and should be just as important to the pet owner as they are to someone with big aspirations of trophies and ribbons. Perhaps even more so when one takes into consideration the fact that a pet owner probably doesn't have the same level of knowledge, experience and resources that a serious trainer might and thus be less able to properly recognize and cope with temperament issues and behavioral problems.


This has been the only post in this entire thread worth reading. Thanks Chris!


----------



## martemchik

Sabis mom said:


> I have been looking for 2 YEARS! I was explicit that I would pay what I needed to, travel where I needed to, wait as long as I needed to and if it was required I WAS willing to title, within reason. Of the dozen breeders that I have contacted all but 3 turned me down, flat. Some really rudely.


Seriously...where are you located? Maybe your goals and the breeders goals just don't line up, but I can't imagine that after going through 12 breeders you couldn't find a single one that would sell you a puppy. I can give you the names of at least 3 breeders that would sell you a puppy as soon as they had one available.


----------



## Sabis mom

martemchik said:


> Seriously...where are you located? Maybe your goals and the breeders goals just don't line up, but I can't imagine that after going through 12 breeders you couldn't find a single one that would sell you a puppy. I can give you the names of at least 3 breeders that would sell you a puppy as soon as they had one available.


I am in Canada. And hopefully will have a pup in the fall. I need to edit, one of those I contacted would have sold me a pup but this was the response to my DM testing question

"Been breeding for 30 years, and my wife is a vet tech. Never heard of it"

This was a breeder recommended on another forum, all the dogs were titled and OFA results posted on the site.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I don't think it's hard to understand why so many people say titles don't matter when they just want a pet. It's because thousands of people spend their lives owning dogs they love, and titles are no where to be found in the pedigree, if they even have a pedigree. It all comes down to expectations. When a dog meets the needs of it's owner, they consider it a "good dog". 

The people who are genuinely interested in preserving the traits of a breed have higher standards and expectations than your average puppy buyer. (Chris, Cliff, Carmen etc.) I think there's learning curve before people reach a point where they understand the difference between a "good dog" and a dog that really represents what a breed is supposed to be. 

I'm not convinced that titles always tell the true story about a bloodline but the absence of titles, (unless the bloodline has real working dogs LE, SAR, etc.) tells me that a breeder isn't investing as much time in their dogs as they could be, and that seems suspicious to me. Moral of story...I like to see titles.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I dont know what breeders your looking at. I contacted several top tier breeders last year all sold to pet homes too. Now Im sure if the potential buyer sounded like a pain or and idiot they would not sell a pup to them.


----------



## DaniFani

Chris Wild said:


> Someone in the other thread that spurned this one commented that it seems that the people who say titles are meaningless (SchH in particular) are almost always people who have never stepped out on a field to title a dog. I agree. You don't tend to hear that from people who are experienced at it and therefore know firsthand what it requires. It's always the folks on the sidelines who say it doesn't prove anything.
> 
> I'd say the same tends to go for those who say working lines can't be pets. That opinion also seems to be exclusively held by people who have little or no experience actually living with them, not by those who do. But I'm going to try to avoid that tangent to the discussion and get back to titles.
> 
> The bottom line is that to produce a good dog requires good genetics. And temperament is genetic. Therefore, producing good temperament requires breeding dogs with good genetics for temperament. Part of that can be determined by looking at the pedigree and relatives. But one must also look at the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> Titles are a means to testing and proving temperament. The existance of a title does not mean a dog is breedworthy, only that it has been tested and, provided things were done correctly and there was no cheating involved, has met a minimum standard. What a title does say is that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time working with that dog to train it for that title, and in doing so that person has a pretty good understanding of the inner workings of the dog and it's core character. And thus that person can accurately assess whether or not that dog has a temperament suitable for breeding, and then use the additional info gained about the dog's strengths and weaknesses to make a good breeding decisions.
> 
> The more difficult, varied and stringent the requirements to earn a title, the more that is learned about the dog along the way. Obedience tells more about a dog than Rally. Obedience and tracking titles tell more about a dog than just one or the other. Something like SchH that involves 3 very different phases tells even more yet.
> 
> I've put SchH titles on several dogs. On every single one I knew before trial day if it was breedworthy or not based on what I learned on the long road to get that title. On the ones I knew were breedworthy I did it to prove to others that the dog was breedworthy and that I'd done the work to gain the knowledge of the dog. There were a couple I titled anyway even though I knew from working them that they really weren't breedworthy. By the "rules" the title says they are, but I knew that they were not. I wouldn't have learned that if not for the work put in.
> 
> I've also done AKC and UKC obedience and rally, SDA obedience, protection and tracking, and put CGCs on all of them except for my youngster at home that I haven't gotten around to yet. And therapy dog certifications on some of those vicious SchH dogs too. I can say from personal experience that I didn't learn much about the dogs doing those other titles that I hadn't already learned from working them in SchH. Actually the only thing it really proved is that they could easily transition from working outdoors with lots of space to the crowd and noise of an AKC type venue. But then I already knew that wouldn't be a problem from just living with them and taking them to loud and crowded places outside of training.
> 
> I can also say from personal experience that there is a whole lot to be uncovered and learned about a dog in SchH that absolutely cannot be uncovered through things like obedience and rally, and certainly not with a CGC or HIC. With regard to the CGC and TDIs, they provide zero additional information. Those tests are so remedial that there is absolutely no comparison. Not even to a BH, much less the other titles we achieved. Those were done strictly for the purpose of showing others that the SchH titles did not equate to biting machines. In addition to doing lots of CGCs on my own dogs I was an evaluator for several years and did dozens upon dozens of CGC tests and can guarantee you that absolutely nothing about that test even comes close to a decent evaluation of temperament for breeding.
> 
> With regard to SchH and other breed/type specific tests (as opposed to "all breed" things like obedience and rally), part of what is tested in the process of titling involves specific skillsets.. such as the ability to use the nose in tracking or the ability to engage a human in a fight in protection. Sometimes these skillsets are an important part of testing the dogs for unique traits that their breeds are supposed to have, which is why we have field trials for sporting breeds and earthdog trials for terriers. But much of titling tests other core aspects that must be present in every dog, no matter it's breed and no matter if it's intended to be a pet or a working dog: trainability, stability, ability to cope with stress without falling apart or getting hectic, ability to focus amidst distraction and excessive stimulation, ability to maintain self control and remain clear headed and responsive to the handler when in a state of high arousal/drive and under stress. Protection is far more than "hitting a sleeve at 45mph". It is far more than drive and fight. It is equally about the dog's ability to cope with stress, modulate his drive appropriately and control it, and remain clear headed and obedient which are essentially extreme tests of character and nerve.
> 
> I have never understood the "titles don't matter because I just want a pet". *To me, that is akin to saying that temperament, nerve and ability to cope with stress with a clear head aren't important for "just pets".* I can see that 45mph to the sleeve, or how good a dog is at tracking, not mattering for a pet, but *there is so much more that titles test for beyond those*. *Things that are vitally important for any dog, and should be just as important to the pet owner as they are to someone with big aspirations of trophies and ribbons. Perhaps even more so when one takes into consideration the fact that a pet owner probably doesn't have the same level of knowledge, experience and resources that a serious trainer might and thus be less able to properly recognize and cope with temperament issues and behavioral problems*.


I really hope people pay attention to this part of your post. I will NEVER understand pet homes, that don't get how important that nerve and balance is, or say "I'm not going to do sport, so titles don't matter." Most of the people looking for a pet GSD (or any breed for that matter), have children. Screaming, yelling, jumping, crying, fast moving, children. Then those children have friends, parks, outdoor events, play areas, baseball, track, soccer, etc…that they want to bring their pet to. Nerves and balance are so so so important in these scenarios. 

My last GSD, towards the end, was exhibiting confusion (vet speculated that it was due to lack of oxygen getting to his brain because of his heart problems), towards my husband and I. He had several 'bouts of not recognizing my husband and I, from four to six feet away, in well lit areas. He didn't recognize us…he would, out of nowhere, start growling, hackles up, teeth bared, start to slowly walk at us. The times it happened, he snapped out of it. However, they were so unexpected, zero warning…this was the final straw for us (I have a 2 year old son). This came at the same time as renal failure and loss of bowel function, which caused us to choose to put him down.

Yes, the confusion and growling was due to physiological issues, however, his nerve threshold wasn't ideal either. It got worse the older he got. He went from the friendly dog that could go to the park, to being suspicious of kids. Park-time stopped immediately. He came from terrible genetics. 

If the breeder had been working and honestly evaluating her stock…working them in venues that tested nerve, truly made sure they were balanced, in aggression, fight drive, food drive, prey drive, defense drive, their nerve threshold was balanced….that they can switch OFF. These things just can't be seen in the CGC, Hic, Rally etc…

I feel like some act like the solution, the easy way out of having to test and ensure that balance, is to just breed dogs with "low drive." The problem there, is genetics aren't that simple. Usually you end up losing the drive (whatever that means…drive of what???..Low drive?? There are so many kinds of drive…most of the time "low drive" translates to "less hyper" which isn't something any reputable working line breeder wants to breed), but you also do something like lower the nerve threshold, up the fight drive, etc…OR instead of lowering the nerve threshold, you increase to the point where the dog is actually dull…nothing phases it. I've seen dogs like this, they are very hard to train and annoying to live with….they are "dull."

As Chris showed, it takes a LOT of time and energy to test the aspects of this breed (you are not going to test appropriate level of aggression in a Rally test). I'm tired of the solution, the short cut, being…"I'll just breed it out of the GSD." You can't breed out aggression. You can only change thresholds, most of the time, from what I've anecdotally seen, you just create more unbalance and problems in other areas (dull, skittish, hyper active, etc…).

Anyway, in my rambling, my point is…I think the titles need to test all the aspects of the GSD (the drives, fight, defense, food, prey, aggression, the thresholds of defense, nerve, etc)….if the venue can't do that, you can't say you are certain you have a balanced dog. I also think those tests are so important, if not more so, for pet homes…because usually kids are involved. I think kids are more unpredictable than most things dogs will encounter.


----------



## Sunflowers

So many good posts here. What shocks the heck out of me is the fact that many people go to a BYB thinking they don't do sport or show, therefore they can get just any GSD.

I would think the pet people should be the ones to do everything they can to get a balanced one, given that we don't know as much as the seasoned folks.

I have two young boys, and frankly, I was too scared to go to a random person who threw together some dogs and to bring the result of that into my home without knowing how the dog will behave.

Pet people don't realize they need a dog with solid nerves, but it is they who really need that the most.


----------



## shepherdmom

DaniFani said:


> I really hope people pay attention to this part of your post. I will NEVER understand pet homes, that don't get how important that nerve and balance is, or say "I'm not going to do sport, so titles don't matter." Most of the people looking for a pet GSD (or any breed for that matter), have children. Screaming, yelling, jumping, crying, fast moving, children. Then those children have friends, parks, outdoor events, play areas, baseball, track, soccer, etc…that they want to bring their pet to. Nerves and balance are so so so important in these scenarios.


My white shepherd mix from 30 years ago had more nerve and balance than any of my papered dogs since. She had horrible HD and I wanted to get away from that. If was the HD,that sent us to to look for a health testing breeder for my next dogs. After tick disease, Pannus and DM, we decided that it was a crap shoot no matter what and went back to rescue.


----------



## Lilie

DaniFani said:


> If the breeder had been working and honestly evaluating her stock…working them in venues that tested nerve, truly made sure they were balanced, in aggression, fight drive, food drive, prey drive, defense drive, their nerve threshold was balanced….that they can switch OFF. *These things just can't be seen in the CGC, Hic, Rally etc*…


You are SO WRONG! I do buy the fact that CGC isn't really breed worthy title. Especially since they can be earned at such and early age of a dog. The CGC doesn't mean much to me. 

But I disagree STRONGLY that the only standard that should be used is through any sort of bite work. 

Good Lord! A GSD is supposed to be used in all sorts of venues. If I wanted a Rally rockstar, I'd go to a breeder that does Rally with their dogs. Or Herding or Agility or Scent work or a Service dog....the list goes on and on. 

Take off your blinders.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I thought Chris's post was great also. 

However, IPO folks are very sensitive about their corner of the GSD world. They put lots of time, money, travel and effort into their dogs and can take years to title. They learn a lot about the dog in front of them. That's awesome but in the U.S, they are in a small minority of GSD owners.

I live in Calif. where there are a bazillion people and hundreds of thousands of GSDs. I have personally only known about four people who at some time participated in IPO of any kind and two of them were my breeders.

When I talk about the real world I'm talking about the vast majority of Joe&Jane six pack who don't have a clue what IPO or titles even are.

Someone is going to sell them dogs.

Those involved in IPO or show, live in their own little corners of the dog world and what they do is a major part of their lives. 

Unfortunately they have trouble at times relating to the average dog owner.

I'm glad they do what they do but they don't really address the major problems within the breed. Those would be nerve, temperament and health on a large scale.

Most of the accepted breeders on this forum breed anything from a litter to say three a year. 

Merciel: Pet people most certainly can get dogs from a good breeder but the vast majority that I come in contact with simply buy locally and have no clue as to most of what is discussed on this board.


----------



## martemchik

The problem is, most of you are equating byb to bad nerves. The truth is, most byb dogs get along just fine in life. I do believe and assume that there is a higher rate of poor temperament (bad to the point of dangerous) in byb dogs, but it’s not much higher than with reputable breeders. Reputable breeders make mistakes and end up with nerve bags and they also end up with dogs that have less than perfect nerves for sport when they do get into the sport and get tested. I have what would be considered a BYB dog, he cost me $500 with full registration. He has better temperament than a lot of other GSD that I have met, and he has been started in Schutzhund without any issues. So yes, other people have mentioned how good of a temperament he has.
If I had never gotten into sport/trialing, I would have probably gone back to a byb because why would I pay almost 3 times more for a dog that is just as good as the one I have? Why not take the risk again? Most people have success with the dogs they get out of the newspaper or off craigslist and never have a problem. I’ve actually met/helped more people that have dogs from what this forum would consider reputable breeders than those that got them from untitled, no-papers, parents. Now, maybe it’s because those people have more invested in their dog and will search out help, but at the same time you can also infer that their issues are much worse than those seen in the byb dogs coming from non-titled parents.


----------



## carmspack

statements like this defy logic "I do believe and assume that there is a higher rate of poor temperament (bad to the point of dangerous) in byb dogs, but it’s not much higher than with reputable breeders"

why bother at all ? 

" I’ve actually met/helped more people that have dogs from what this forum would consider reputable breeders than those that got them from untitled, no-papers, parents."

how exactly did you "help" them , and what credentials or experience do you have to offer this help.


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> statements like this defy logic "I do believe and assume that there is a higher rate of poor temperament (bad to the point of dangerous) in byb dogs, but it’s not much higher than with reputable breeders"
> 
> why bother at all ?
> 
> " I’ve actually met/helped more people that have dogs from what this forum would consider reputable breeders than those that got them from untitled, no-papers, parents."
> 
> how exactly did you "help" them , and what credentials or experience do you have to offer this help.


Seriously? You want to question me on my credentials? I'm a dog trainer, today, not 3 decades ago. Let me know the last time you've seen the inside of a trial ring or field.

I know, you probably think that the chances of bad nerves in a byb are like 3 times higher than when a reputable breeder does it, but they aren't. They're quite minimal. I know enough about the breeders that consistently get recommended on this forum that they've had issues as well, be it with health or with temperament. The majority of the dogs that even those breeders sell, go to pet homes, which don't care about the nerve needed to participate in IPO, and guess what, they don't see the small ticks that many of us would see and consider "unbreedable." Their dogs don't eat the children, bark at the mailman, and learn to sit/down/shake. Wow! What wonderful temperament! They rarely, if ever, get tested on a Schutzhund field and the customers come on here and scream about the wonderful temperament of their dog, breeders get good reputations really quickly from the "pet market" as they don't really care about or understand what the temperament of a GSD should be as it relates to the breed standard.

Oh wait, this forums thought process when the dog comes from an "accepted breeder" is that the handler must've made a mistake somewhere along the line because the PEDIGREE says the dog should be solid.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Lilie said:


> You are SO WRONG! I do buy the fact that CGC isn't really breed worthy title. Especially since they can be earned at such and early age of a dog. The CGC doesn't mean much to me.
> 
> But I disagree STRONGLY that the only standard that should be used is through any sort of bite work.
> 
> Good Lord! A GSD is supposed to be used in all sorts of venues. If I wanted a Rally rockstar, I'd go to a breeder that does Rally with their dogs. Or Herding or Agility or Scent work or a Service dog....the list goes on and on.
> 
> Take off your blinders.


You learn the most about whats in the dog through bitework. A dog that cannot do bitework well is pet quality nothing more or less.


----------



## onyx'girl

What it boils down to, we will support the breeder we choose to. I personally would never buy from a breeder that is doing only CGC or rally titles as proof of their program. I would look at what the breeder is producing and the titles the progeny is earning...that should be enough to tell whether or not the breeders program goals are being achieved and that they in fact have a vision for their program. 
Bonus if they are breeding 2nd or 3rd generation lines from their foundation and producing the vision.
IPO is a 3 phase sport, can't say the same for rally or other 'titles'.
I know a breeder local to me that has dock diving as the brag for a bitch being bred. That breeder is breeding to big name males so the marketing is going well, I assume.


----------



## carmspack

martemchik said:


> Seriously? You want to question me on my credentials? I'm a dog trainer, today, not 3 decades ago. Let me know the last time you've seen the inside of a trial ring or field.
> 
> I know, you probably think that the chances of bad nerves in a byb are like 3 times higher than when a reputable breeder does it, but they aren't. They're quite minimal. I know enough about the breeders that consistently get recommended on this forum that they've had issues as well, be it with health or with temperament. The majority of the dogs that even those breeders sell, go to pet homes, which don't care about the nerve needed to participate in IPO, and guess what, they don't see the small ticks that many of us would see and consider "unbreedable." Their dogs don't eat the children, bark at the mailman, and learn to sit/down/shake. Wow! What wonderful temperament! They rarely, if ever, get tested on a Schutzhund field and the customers come on here and scream about the wonderful temperament of their dog, breeders get good reputations really quickly from the "pet market" as they don't really care about or understand what the temperament of a GSD should be as it relates to the breed standard.
> 
> Oh wait, this forums thought process when the dog comes from an "accepted breeder" is that the handler must've made a mistake somewhere along the line because the PEDIGREE says the dog should be solid.




yes I do , that is why I did ask.

I am putting dogs into service work as we speak --- very current ---
my task masters hold me to high standards --


----------



## my boy diesel

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You learn the most about whats in the dog through bitework. A dog that cannot do bitework well is pet quality nothing more or less.


utter nonsense
the breed was not bred for schutzhund although that came along in time
the original dog was a herder
imo a dog should be able to do what the original dogs were intended to do
not something that some macho man along the way dreamt up


----------



## Merciel

Lilie said:


> If I wanted a Rally rockstar, I'd go to a breeder that does Rally with their dogs.


I wouldn't. I want a dog like Nymeria or Carma. But, you know, the boy version. 

I don't mean to pick on you, but as much as I love Rally (and I do! I think it's great! I hope to compete it forever with any dog I get down the road!), I do have to agree with the people who are saying that it really doesn't tell you whether a dog is breedworthy -- and I mean that generally, not even for a dog like the GSD that is supposed to have specific breed traits which aren't tested in that ring.

It just is not that hard to title a dog in Rally, especially AKC Rally (the courses are shorter, the exercises are easier, and you don't need high scores to get the 'advanced' titles), and _especially_ if you don't care what your scores are.

I can take a dog like Nymeria or Carma and make that dog a rockstar in Rally. I could get a dog like that to top three in the nation pretty easily, I think, depending mostly on whether certain other competitors were hardcore campaigning their dogs that year.

But I can't take a dog like Pongu and make him a rockstar in IPO.


----------



## GrammaD

> The bottom line is that to produce a good dog requires good genetics. And temperament is genetic. Therefore, producing good temperament requires breeding dogs with good genetics for temperament. Part of that can be determined by looking at the pedigree and relatives. But one must also look at the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> Titles are a means to testing and proving temperament.
> (....)
> I have never understood the "titles don't matter because I just want a pet". To me, that is akin to saying that temperament, nerve and ability to cope with stress with a clear head aren't important for "just pets". I can see that 45mph to the sleeve, or how good a dog is at tracking, not mattering for a pet, but there is so much more that titles test for beyond those. Things that are vitally important for any dog, and should be just as important to the pet owner as they are to someone with big aspirations of trophies and ribbons. Perhaps even more so when one takes into consideration the fact that a pet owner probably doesn't have the same level of knowledge, experience and resources that a serious trainer might and thus be less able to properly recognize and cope with temperament issues and behavioral problems.


This. This again. And more this.

(and as an aside, why I went to Chris for a puppy!)

I'd seen a lot of video of IPO - and I've done AKC obedience, Rally, etc - but until I started going and watching training I didn't really "get it." What is required of the dog. What is required of the handler. What even a novice can discern in terms of nerves and drives when you actually watch the work. Then imagine what a good breeder with experience and knowledge behind them can divine from the work!


----------



## Lilie

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You learn the most about whats in the dog through bitework. A dog that cannot do bitework well is pet quality nothing more or less.


In what world?


----------



## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> Seriously? You want to question me on my credentials? I'm a dog trainer, today, not 3 decades ago. Let me know the last time you've seen the inside of a trial ring or field.
> 
> I know, you probably think that the chances of bad nerves in a byb are like 3 times higher than when a reputable breeder does it, but they aren't. They're quite minimal. I know enough about the breeders that consistently get recommended on this forum that they've had issues as well, be it with health or with temperament. The majority of the dogs that even those breeders sell, go to pet homes, which don't care about the nerve needed to participate in IPO, and guess what, they don't see the small ticks that many of us would see and consider "unbreedable." Their dogs don't eat the children, bark at the mailman, and learn to sit/down/shake. Wow! What wonderful temperament! They rarely, if ever, get tested on a Schutzhund field and the customers come on here and scream about the wonderful temperament of their dog, breeders get good reputations really quickly from the "pet market" as they don't really care about or understand what the temperament of a GSD should be as it relates to the breed standard.
> 
> Oh wait, this forums thought process when the dog comes from an "accepted breeder" is that the handler must've made a mistake somewhere along the line because the PEDIGREE says the dog should be solid.


NOT every dog needs to be bred! 
NOT every dog is breedworthy. But some think a CGC or a rally title makes it so.
Chris pointed out, it is the individual dog, and learning about the dog on the journey to the titles that make a difference. How can you learn the strengths and weaknesses if you don't test them? NOT every dog is breedworthy, at least some breeders will weed out those and not breed them, even though they still train and title them.


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> yes I do , that is why I did ask.
> 
> I am putting dogs into service work as we speak --- very current ---
> my task masters hold me to high standards --


That didn't answer the question.

When was the last time you saw the inside of a trial field?

I can tell everyone here that I'm currently training 15 dogs in SAR and 10 dogs for service work, and guess what, no one can prove it otherwise...why? There isn't a registry or any kind of place to look that up.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

I'm a little sad to see no mention of HGH titles. Thoughts on that specific title as a way to evaluate German SHEPHERD dogs?

And yes, of course HGH is an all tending breed title, and yes SchH/IPO titles began as a breed suitability test for German Shepherds and yes I have experience in IPO as a handler and a helper but absolutely no experience in HGH other than one trial I observed / helped on. Thoughts? Specifically on how you'd fit HGH / other tending titles into the overall picture?


----------



## Merciel

ayoitzrimz said:


> I'm a little sad to see no mention of HGH titles. Thoughts on that specific title as a way to evaluate German SHEPHERD dogs?


I haven't mentioned HGH because I don't know anything about it really, but you're right, that is something that I wish people would discuss in more depth, because I would love to learn more about it. Thanks for bringing that up.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You learn the most about whats in the dog through bitework. A dog that cannot do bitework well is pet quality nothing more or less.


That's one of the silliest things I've read on this thread so far. You do know there is a whole world of possible work avenues out there for a GSD that do not involve bitework? Stop repeating what you read online/hear your TD say man, it is obvious and gets old fast.


----------



## selzer

ayoitzrimz said:


> I'm a little sad to see no mention of HGH titles. Thoughts on that specific title as a way to evaluate German SHEPHERD dogs?
> 
> And yes, of course HGH is an all tending breed title, and yes SchH/IPO titles began as a breed suitability test for German Shepherds and yes I have experience in IPO as a handler and a helper but absolutely no experience in HGH other than one trial I observed / helped on. Thoughts? Specifically on how you'd fit HGH / other tending titles into the overall picture?


Probably just the logistics of being able to either own sheep, or regularly train with sheep makes HGH tough to sell for most people. I have put a dog on sheep, and it was great fun, but since then there has just not been the availability to get to anywhere that I can do this with a dog.


----------



## martemchik

onyx'girl said:


> NOT every dog needs to be bred!
> NOT every dog is breedworthy. But some think a CGC or a rally title makes it so.
> Chris pointed out, it is the individual dog, and learning about the dog on the journey to the titles that make a difference. How can you learn the strengths and weaknesses if you don't test them? NOT every dog is breedworthy, at least some breeders will weed out those and not breed them, even though they still train and title them.


Not sure what you're getting at here...I'm in 100% agreement with you. My post was pointing out what the average pet owner thinks.

My second dog comes from a bitch with PAM-V and all these titles behind her...SCH3 HOT, IPO3, FH1, BH, AD, CDX, TDX, CGC, TDI, TC. That at the age of 9 is currently being trained to do cadaver searches and only started IPO training at the age of 4.


----------



## onyx'girl

HGH is far and few between to train or trial.


----------



## Lilie

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You learn the most about whats in the dog through bitework. A dog that cannot do bitework well is pet quality nothing more or less.


Oh...maybe in the world of THIS forum. I can certainly understand if you want a dog to do bitework you'd buy one from a breeder who has proven stock. If I wanted a reining horse, I certainly wouldn't run out and buy a barrel racer. So that makes sense. 


This is from the AKC registry:

Considering first the more important side of the dog, its character, the Shepherd is distinguished for loyalty, courage, and the ability to assimilate and retain training for a number of special services. He should be of equable disposition, poised, unexcitable, and with well-controlled nerves. For his typical work as a herding sheepdog, he must not be gun-shy and must have courage to protect his flock from attacks, either animal or human. For his work as a police dog, a development which followed upon his natural aptitude for training, he must have this courage and in addition must be able to make use of the excellent nose which he usually possesses. In his work as a leader of the blind, the Shepherd must and does exhibit a high order of intelligence and discrimination involving the qualities of observation, patience, faithful watchfulness, and even, to a certain degree, the exercise of judgment.

I must be missing the part that reads before your SAR dog or Service dog is certified it must go through bitwork.


----------



## my boy diesel

its right in the title of the breed folks
german *shepherd* dog
a dog good with sheep and baby lambs is going to be good with kids and regard its family as its sheep and protect them thusly
why do you think they did make such good guardians??


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I think Jane's post bears repeating. I agree with this. While I said previously titles aren't the be all end all for me, when I am looking at titled parents, it's not the cgc or rally titles that draw me, it's 'more'. It doesn't have to be IPO, but some kind of "working ability"..

I think a big thing it boils down to is, and I see it all the time with 'newbies', (not all mind you)they want a dog, but they don't want to PAY an arm and leg for it, which is usually below 1000$. They don't want to show, they don't care about titles, they want a 'pet', but it's hard to get it thru their head, just because "you" don't want those things, doesn't mean the PRICE of a puppy is going to be cheaper..It 'may be', but it's usually someone breeding indiscriminately. 

For me, breeding because a dog has cgc, rally, may impress some, but it doesn't really tell me much. Just MHO..



> What it boils down to, we will support the breeder we choose to. I personally would never buy from a breeder that is doing only CGC or rally titles as proof of their program. I would look at what the breeder is producing and the titles the progeny is earning...that should be enough to tell whether or not the breeders program goals are being achieved and that they in fact have a vision for their program.
> Bonus if they are breeding 2nd or 3rd generation lines from their foundation and producing the vision.
> IPO is a 3 phase sport, can't say the same for rally or other 'titles'.
> I know a breeder local to me that has dock diving as the brag for a bitch being bred. That breeder is breeding to big name males so the marketing is going well, I assume.


----------



## boomer11

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You learn the most about whats in the dog through bitework. A dog that cannot do bitework well is pet quality nothing more or less.


Pssh bite work looks cool but I don't think it's all that important to the overall picture. 

People who own gsd's for sport put bite work at the top. They want a dog that launches into the helper and looks flashy but in the real world all that doesn't matter. The only important aspect of bite work to me is to see how much courage the dog has and how much pressure it can handle. The actual bite isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Chris Wild

Lilie said:


> You are SO WRONG! I do buy the fact that CGC isn't really breed worthy title. Especially since they can be earned at such and early age of a dog. The CGC doesn't mean much to me.
> 
> But I disagree STRONGLY that the only standard that should be used is through any sort of bite work.
> 
> Good Lord! A GSD is supposed to be used in all sorts of venues. If I wanted a Rally rockstar, I'd go to a breeder that does Rally with their dogs. Or Herding or Agility or Scent work or a Service dog....the list goes on and on.
> 
> Take off your blinders.


There is far more to SchH than just bitework. And there is far more to bitework than just biting. But anyway....

I can sort of understand someone not seeing the point in the testing involved in the protection phase. And the tracking phase for that matter. Especially people with no experience in it and thus no real basis to understand the many varied aspects of temperament that those phases test and now they can also apply to other things, including desirable traits for the average family pet. So I can see where someone not interested in those types of venues, or who just wants a pet, would focus pretty much exclusively on training/titles that involve things that they can more easily understand and see real world applications for, such as obedience.

But if one is going to use some form of obedience as the milestone for breeding, Rally certainly should not be sufficient. The CGC is actually a better test of temperament than a Rally title as it requires the dog to be accepting of attention and handling by strangers and also to work in the presence of other people and dogs. Something where the dog doesn't need to interact or focus around people and dogs, where the handler can cheerlead the dog through with as much hand signals, encouragement, praise, light verbal corrections, repeating commands, and luring with "air cookies" as is needed.. and depending on the level the dog may not even have to work off lead... is ZERO test of anything. If obedience titles are enough proof for the customer, they should at least be real obedience titles where the dog needs to be truly trained, needs to work around strange people and dogs and needs to hold *itself* together for at least a few minutes under some stress and distraction. 

I love Rally. It's fun. I think it is great for young dogs just starting out in the ring and I think it is great for owners who want to have fun with very little pressure, or who need to get their feet wet and gather some experience in a less stressful environment. The whole point of Rally is to be as fun and stress free on dog and handler as possible, so the very point of it undermines it as any sort of temperament test. 

If one is going to look for obedience titles as the measure, look at least to the real obedience levels. It doesn't have to be an OTCH dog, but at least a CD, better yet a CDX, with some additional temperament testing like a TT/TC on top of that. A dog who can do real obedience can certainly do Rally. But a dog can be a "rockstar" at Rally and still not able to handle real obedience, or everyday life in the average family home.


----------



## Lilie

Ok - I'll take it from Chris - I trust what she has to say.


----------



## Chris Wild

my boy diesel said:


> utter nonsense
> the breed was not bred for schutzhund although that came along in time
> the original dog was a herder
> imo a dog should be able to do what the original dogs were intended to do
> not something that some macho man along the way dreamt up



The "macho man" who dreamt it up along the way was the founder of the breed. The first SchH trial was in 1901, a mere 2 years after the SV was formed.

The GSD was NOT created to be a herder. It was created *from* herding dogs to be an all around utilitarian working breed that was still capable of herding but also capable of much more, including police and military service. Big difference.

We can debate whether the focus on SchH is appropriate or whether it is still a good test for the breed all day, but we can't change the facts that this is a working breed, not just a herding breed, and that the ability to do protection was an integral part of it from the very beginning.


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> utter nonsense
> 
> the breed was not bred for schutzhund although that came along in time
> 
> the original dog was a herder
> 
> imo a dog should be able to do what the original dogs were intended to do
> 
> not something that some macho man along the way dreamt up



And if I wanted a herder I would go to my local farmer and ask for one of his puppies I wouldn't pay 2000+ for a dog with a title in bite work. When I was interested in sar I went to a sar handler and got my dogs from her. Now my dogs need to keep the rabbits and the squirrels away and look bad enough to scare the coyotes and teenagers from coming in my yard. A pug won't do but I don't need a dog titled in bite work either. 
If I wasn't into rescue I would probably look for a local who does some health testing. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Chris Wild

ayoitzrimz said:


> I'm a little sad to see no mention of HGH titles. Thoughts on that specific title as a way to evaluate German SHEPHERD dogs?
> 
> And yes, of course HGH is an all tending breed title, and yes SchH/IPO titles began as a breed suitability test for German Shepherds and yes I have experience in IPO as a handler and a helper but absolutely no experience in HGH other than one trial I observed / helped on. Thoughts? Specifically on how you'd fit HGH / other tending titles into the overall picture?


HGH is certainly a good breedworthiness test for a GSD. Smaller scale herding, such as AKC, I don't think is sufficient. But tending a huge flock certainly is. The problem with it from a logistics standpoint is that there is no real access to it in this country so that all but a small handful of dogs with HGH titles were either imported with those titles or sent off to training, in which case the someone who knows the inner workings of that dog isn't the one making the breeding decisions. So there it's no different than the dogs purchased or sent off for IPO titles. The title alone doesn't make the dog breedworthy, IMO, it only means that someone knows if the dog is or not. But who that someone is makes a big difference.


----------



## DaniFani

Lilie said:


> You are SO WRONG! I do buy the fact that CGC isn't really breed worthy title. Especially since they can be earned at such and early age of a dog. The CGC doesn't mean much to me.
> 
> But I disagree STRONGLY that the only standard that should be used is through any sort of bite work.
> 
> Good Lord! A GSD is supposed to be used in all sorts of venues. If I wanted a Rally rockstar, I'd go to a breeder that does Rally with their dogs. Or Herding or Agility or Scent work or a Service dog....the list goes on and on.
> 
> Take off your blinders.


You are totally missing my point. There is so much more to SchH than biting the sleeve! A BH or any one of the obedience portions of IPO 1, 2, or 3, would prove a dog's ability to do rally. We have one person in our club who does AKC Obedience, Rally, and the tracking portion of SchH (as well as AKC tracking). She is one of the first to say, "oh, Rally's really easy and fun. Any dog can do it." Now, I've watched her train towards CDX and that's way more difficult. 

The other portion, tracking, is always forgotten…even in discussions on IPO forums. I loooove tracking. I know so many IPO people who loath it lol. It's 1/3 of the title though, it's important. 

It kind of goes to that analogy, if you can run 15 miles, you can run 10. However, if you can run 10, it doesn't mean you can run 15. At that point in the "runner's life" 10 and 15 are both above and beyond "normal" joggers…doesn't change the fact that one takes even more than the other. Same thing (imho) in comparing Rally to a BH or IPO 1,2, or 3. Rally's great, but it doesn't test everything. SAR is wonderful, but again..it's missing some core components to test the overall balance of ALL the aspects of the GSD, *when considering a dog for breeding*. I'm NOT saying SAR isn't proof of a great dog…I thought this was about breed ability. IPO, while imperfect, tests so much more. A good, strong, IPO dog, should be able to cross train in all the things you listed. 

I know a lot put down "crazy sport people," but until I see something that really tests as many aspects of the dog as IPO, LE, Ringsport (from what I know about ringsport)…I just don't think there is much else to truly test for "breed ability." 

It's not "blinders"…It's wanting every aspect of the breed tested. You can't test aggression(which IS in the breed) and how/when it comes out (fear, defense, fight), with Rally. If you are only working the dog in fly ball, Rally, CGC…you can't make claims on the way the defense/fight drives come out. Hope that makes sense.

ETA: I'm not against Rally, an I'm not trying to pick a fight. Like I said, good friend competes in it regularly. Seems fun. Just not a GSD breed test, imho.


----------



## DaniFani

Just saw Chris's response. She put it more elegantly than I. I should have read through everything before responding.


----------



## sparra

To make a safe pet a GSD needs patience, tolerance, very good judgement, sound decision making, self control and strong nerve.
When I see my dog with our sheep he displays patience, tolerance, very good judgement, sound decision making, very good self control (mostly  and strong nerve.....especially in the yards when a big ugly ram is stomping his feet at him.
Not having done schutzhund/personal protection I am only surmising that these same temperament traits would need to be there also to excel.
So I really don't get the whole "just need a pet" argument either. Those same traits that allow my dog to handle 200 sheep are the same traits that make him awesome with my family and friends.....he is just applying them in a different situation.......not sure if that makes sense.


----------



## Jack's Dad

sparra said:


> To make a safe pet a GSD needs patience, tolerance, very good judgement, sound decision making, self control and strong nerve.
> When I see my dog with our sheep he displays patience, tolerance, very good judgement, sound decision making, very good self control (mostly  and strong nerve.....especially in the yards when a big ugly ram is stomping his feet at him.
> Not having done schutzhund/personal protection I am only surmising that these same temperament traits would need to be there also to excel.
> So I really don't get the whole "just need a pet" argument either. Those same traits that allow my dog to handle 200 sheep are the same traits that make him awesome with my family and friends.....he is just applying them in a different situation.......not sure if that makes sense.


I guess I don't take the "just need a pet" the way some of you do.

The qualities you listed sparra, are just as important to those who just want a pet. 

It's kinda like if you want a thoroughbred for trail riding, you don't need it to be another Secretariat. That wouldn't serve you or the horse much good. There are lots of thoroughbreds though that would make fine trail horses.


----------



## sparra

Jack's Dad said:


> I guess I don't take the "just need a pet" the way some of you do.
> 
> The qualities you listed sparra, are just as important to those who just want a pet.
> 
> It's kinda like if you want a thoroughbred for trail riding, you don't need it to be another Secretariat. That wouldn't serve you or the horse much good. There are lots of thoroughbreds though that would make fine trail horses.


Exactly my point. Personally I think "just being a pet" is the hardest job a dog can have.....so a sound mind is essential......I wish more people could see this.


----------



## my boy diesel

sparra said:


> To make a safe pet a GSD needs patience, tolerance, very good judgement, sound decision making, self control and strong nerve.
> When I see my dog with our sheep he displays patience, tolerance, very good judgement, sound decision making, very good self control (mostly  and strong nerve.....especially in the yards when a big ugly ram is stomping his feet at him.
> Not having done schutzhund/personal protection I am only surmising that these same temperament traits would need to be there also to excel.
> So I really don't get the whole "just need a pet" argument either. Those same traits that allow my dog to handle 200 sheep are the same traits that make him awesome with my family and friends.....he is just applying them in a different situation.......not sure if that makes sense.


:thumbup:
if i had to pick between a dog like yours that i saw herding and being gentle with sheep
i would pick that dog over one i saw tracking or biting a sleeve 

our first gsd ran to our child who had fallen and stood over the top of that child until we got there to fix the childs scraped knee
i knew that was a great dog
he would not let the kids get too close to the road and supervised their play
we knew he took those kids as his job 
in the absence of sheep of course


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Its not.


----------



## Jack's Dad

sparra said:


> Exactly my point. Personally I think "just being a pet" is the hardest job a dog can have.....so a sound mind is essential......I wish more people could see this.


Agree 100%. Titles are good but getting the nerve base, overall 
temperament and health would be my priorities.

Who cares if your dog can bite through a 2X4 if it can't be trusted around children.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> Agree 100%. Titles are good but getting the nerve base, overall
> temperament and health would be my priorities.
> 
> Who cares if your dog can bite through a 2X4 if it can't be trusted around children.


Most dogs that can bite well can be trusted around kids because they have good NERVE. Its funny how many just dont get that.


----------



## onyx'girl

tracking and biting a sleeve are obedience based exercises. The dog needs control and balance...as well as being a thinker. The dog needs to work out scent on a track, and the timing in the bitework is a challenge if the dog doesn't have self control.
There is so much more to tracking and bitework than you see in video clips. If you've never trained in it, you don't know what you don't know. 
I appreciate a herding working GSD. Onyx's mother was one on a cattle ranch, but she also didn't have much of an off switch. I think some of these herding instinct tests are not worthy, especially when the sheep are in a round pen and the evaluator is extra careful in not allowing the dog to harm those poor sheep who do this stuff for their 'work'.


----------



## sparra

my boy diesel said:


> :thumbup:
> if i had to pick between a dog like yours that i saw herding and being gentle with sheep
> i would pick that dog over one i saw tracking or biting a sleeve
> 
> our first gsd ran to our child who had fallen and stood over the top of that child until we got there to fix the childs scraped knee
> i knew that was a great dog
> he would not let the kids get too close to the road and supervised their play
> we knew he took those kids as his job
> in the absence of sheep of course


Hmmm.....but you missed my point.
A dog who does bitework needs these same traits.....or a dog who does personal protection.....they need these same traits ........all these outlets are just different ways of testing them......
My dog came from a litter bred for police work not herding.....I just do that cause we have thousands of sheep and it's fun.....we don't have bitework much over here which is a real shame.....so for me getting a pup from a litter bred for potential police work was my next best option. A safe "pet" is all I wanted.....and I got it.


----------



## sparra

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Most dogs that can bite well can be trusted around kids because they have good NERVE. Its funny how many just dont get that.


I do get that......I was trying to say that in my first post but it didn't make sense like I wanted it too


----------



## sparra

onyx'girl said:


> I think some of these herding instinct tests are not worthy, especially when the sheep are in a round pen and the evaluator is extra careful in not allowing the dog to harm those poor sheep who do this stuff for their 'work'.


I agree......chasing three terrified sheep around a small pen is not herding......it's sheep abuse


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I am following this discussion with interest, and am reformulating my opinions a little. I still would have chosen the dogs and breeder I did though.


----------



## my boy diesel

you are missing my point
i dont need to see it biting to know it could 
if it can work sheep all day
do _you_ need to see _your_ dog doing a bite sleeve or bark and hold to know it could since you have seen it work sheep with ease and confidence??


----------



## LifeofRiley

The GSD would probably be in a lot better shape if it were not as popular as it is today, and in years past. 

The fact of the matter is that a lot of John Q. Public thinks that having "AKC papers" is a breed-worthy “title.” They believe that all AKC German Shepherds will _auto-magically_ conform to the mythical breed standard that is so pervasive in our popular culture. 

They have no idea that the AKC does not have any quality controls on breeding practices or breed health.

Until the public recognizes, that there is HUGE variation in temperament and health within the GSD breed, due to differences in breeding practices, we will stay on the path we are on today.

I really admire breeders like Chris Wild, it would be great if the AKC , or some other publically prominent organization, provided greater recognition to those who are actually breeding responsibly. Because, at the end of the day, as Chris mentioned, whether or not a dog is breed-worthy has less to do with a specific title and more to do with what is learned about that dog throughout the titling process. In other words, it is about the ethics of the breeder.



> “The title alone doesn't make the dog breedworthy, IMO, it only means that someone knows if the dog is or not. But who that someone is makes a big difference.”.


In my opinion, the above quote is very insightful.


----------



## onyx'girl

> you are missing my point
> i dont need to see it biting to know it could
> if it can work sheep all day
> do you need to see your dog doing a bite sleeve or bark and hold to know it could since you have seen it work sheep with ease and confidence??


why are you so focused on the bitework? The protection phase in IPO is so much more than "biting". The training involved showcases the dogs heart. Though it has been watered down. Focusing on just bitework for the IPO title is not looking at the total dog or picture. Stamina is proved in the AD title. 

A dog that can tend sheep all day is a dog that may not be able to settle in a home. Border collies are not for just any pet home, they need to be busy or will make up their own job.


----------



## Jax08

my boy diesel said:


> you are missing my point
> i dont need to see it biting to know it could
> if it can work sheep all day
> do _you_ need to see _your_ dog doing a bite sleeve or bark and hold to know it could since you have seen it work sheep with ease and confidence??


Yes. If I wanted to do IPO then YES, I would need to see it do that. Just because it can herd doesn't mean it can do IPO. Those are completely different skill sets.


----------



## Sunflowers

my boy diesel said:


> you are missing my point
> i dont need to see it biting to know it could
> if it can work sheep all day
> do _you_ need to see _your_ dog doing a bite sleeve or bark and hold to know it could since you have seen it work sheep with ease and confidence??


But that does not define Schutzhund. There is so much more to it than that.


----------



## GatorDog

If Schutzhund was as simple as some people like to make it out to be, then I would think most people's dogs would be titled. Just as many people who went out and got a CGC on their dogs could go out and get a BH that same weekend, right? Yeah, let me know how that works out.

If only it was "just" a dog biting...I must be a real moton putting in countless hours of work for no reason since Schutzhund is all about "just" the biting. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## DobbyDad

Isn't the KKL designed for breed worthiness. If I'm not mistaken it encompasses BH (Temperment), IPO or Schutzhund (Tracking, Obedience, and Protection), and the AD (Endurance) along with breed survey. Sounds kinda all inclusive to me. Kinda like it might have been designed for this.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

DobbyDad said:


> Isn't the KKL designed for breed worthiness. If I'm not mistaken it encompasses BH (Temperment), IPO or Schutzhund (Tracking, Obedience, and Protection), and the AD (Endurance) along with breed survey. Sounds kinda all inclusive to me. Kinda like it might have been designed for this.


I was wondering what those letters meant...


----------



## Liesje

DobbyDad said:


> Isn't the KKL designed for breed worthiness. If I'm not mistaken it encompasses BH (Temperment), IPO or Schutzhund (Tracking, Obedience, and Protection), and the AD (Endurance) along with breed survey. Sounds kinda all inclusive to me. Kinda like it might have been designed for this.


Yes and there are many breeders that consider it a minimum requirement for breeding.

The HGH is acceptable in place of Schutzhund titles and dogs also need a show card of G or better, and hip and elbow certifications.


----------



## my boy diesel

onyx'girl said:


> why are you so focused on the bitework? The protection phase in IPO is so much more than "biting". The training involved showcases the dogs heart. Though it has been watered down. Focusing on just bitework for the IPO title is not looking at the total dog or picture. Stamina is proved in the AD title.
> 
> A dog that can tend sheep all day is a dog that may not be able to settle in a home. Border collies are not for just any pet home, they need to be busy or will make up their own job.


possibly because blitzkrieg said something about biting as the be all and end all of breed worthiness


*The HGH is acceptable in place of Schutzhund titles and dogs also need a show card of G or better, and hip and elbow certifications.*
thank you


----------



## Jack's Dad

GatorDog said:


> If Schutzhund was as simple as some people like to make it out to be, then I would think most people's dogs would be titled. Just as many people who went out and got a CGC on their dogs could go out and get a BH that same weekend, right? Yeah, let me know how that works out.
> 
> If only it was "just" a dog biting...I must be a real moton putting in countless hours of work for no reason since Schutzhund is all about "just" the biting.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't remember anyone implying it is simple. There has probably been more than a couple of marriages that have ended over the amount of time, effort, money, travel. invested.

The question is, after all that, is your dog breed worthy because of the title.

To me the answer is no. There is much more than just a title, however difficult that was to achieve.

So to go back to the original question. How do you determine what dogs are breed worthy? Are there any title or certs that make the dog worthy?
I think Chris answered it. There is a lot more to breeding than just titles.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I am honored by all the voices that spoke on my thread, and have loved the interesting reading material. I look forward to finding out more about schutzhund and other dog sports to keep my two busy  Thanks especially to Chris Wild, martemchik, Jack's dad, Liesje, Onyx girl, shepherdmom for not losing her cool under fire, and really to everyone..


----------



## my boy diesel

gator dog we have seen your vids and know it is a lot more difficult than most of us could do


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

my boy diesel said:


> possibly because blitzkrieg said something about biting as the be all and end all of breed worthiness
> 
> 
> *The HGH is acceptable in place of Schutzhund titles and dogs also need a show card of G or better, and hip and elbow certifications.*
> thank you


No I didnt, I said it was important. Chasing sheep is not a good indication of nerve.


----------



## GrammaD

glowingtoadfly said:


> I am honored that Chris Wild spoke on my thread, and by the number of voices I heard, and have loved the interesting reading material. I look forward to finding out more about schutzhund and other dog sports to keep my two busy



I think you will enjoy it. I could watch it all day, and have come close to doing that on several occasions! I am excited that I have the opportunity to participate. It is so much more than biting a sleeve. Watching Mike Diehl bring things out of dogs at training has been a real eye opener for me. I really learned just how little I know and have become eager to get an education. 

I also flat out love Rally, Agility, Freestyle etc. I think they are all very fun ways to develop a close working bond with a dog as well as improve handling skills. There is a place for light hearted work that doesn't put a lot of pressure on a dog or a handler. It's just not, imo, the place to be making breeding decisions from


----------



## selzer

I am not sure about all shows, but for the sieger show, the dog can have a HGH title is Liu of schutzhund, but they still have to pass the protection at the show itself. 

So, even Herding titled dogs are expected to do bitework at the show itself. Of course everyone here's opinion of the bitework in the German rings isn't very high anyway.


----------



## sparra

my boy diesel said:


> you are missing my point
> i dont need to see it biting to know it could
> if it can work sheep all day
> do _you_ need to see _your_ dog doing a bite sleeve or bark and hold to know it could since you have seen it work sheep with ease and confidence??


I would love to try it with him but am not able to over here ........
It is not about the biting it's about what's going on upstairs to be be able to do the biting.
I am not saying that just cause my dog can work sheep all day he can do bitework or a bark and hold just that the traits that make a good pet, herder, schutzhund, guard dog etc are very similar.


----------



## sparra

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No I didnt, I said it was important. Chasing sheep is not a good indication of nerve.


You need to be fair ......just as in schutzhund there is more to just biting a sleeve, I think you would agree that in herding there is a fair bit more than just chasing sheep.....


----------



## my boy diesel

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No I didnt, I said it was important. Chasing sheep is not a good indication of nerve.


i can go back and look but you said if a dog wouldnt or couldnt bite it was just a pet
and i quote

*The HGH is acceptable in place of Schutzhund titles and dogs also need a show card of G or better, and hip and elbow certifications.*

now if its good enough for the germans it is good enough for me


----------



## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> i can go back and look but you said if a dog wouldnt or couldnt bite it was just a pet
> and i quote
> 
> *The HGH is acceptable in place of Schutzhund titles and dogs also need a show card of G or better, and hip and elbow certifications.*
> 
> now if its good enough for the germans it is good enough for me


Actually, it is not good enough for the Germans:

From the 2013 requirements for the breed survey:
*"6.3 Protection/Courage* *Test* (valid since 2012)
For the judging of the protection phase of trials [the courage test], a trained breed survey master (_Körmeister_) is used. He is available as a teacher-assistant to help in the protection phase of trials [courage test] in his_Landesgruppe._
*Conduct:*
*I. The Attack [Dog Protects Owner from Attack]*

1. The handler reports with his accompanying dog to the _Körmeister_ [who is acting as judge].
2. Upon an indication from the judge, the dog handler with his dog on leash walks 25 meters in the direction of the hiding-place, [and stops at] the designated starting place.
3. The leash is [removed and] draped around the handler or put in his pocket.
4. Upon another signal from the judge, the dog handler proceeds with his dog heeling off-lead, in the direction of the hidden helper.
5. The dog must heel closely to a mark that is found 7 meters before the hiding-place. Repeated verbal commands are allowed during this heeling, but touching is not allowed. If the handler has reached this mark with his off-leash heeling dog, the helper (upon signal from the judge) undertakes a running attack as if to drive away the handler-and-dog team. If the dog charges toward the blind [canvass hiding-place] before the signal [that the judge gives to the helper to show himself in attack mode], no attack on the helper is to be made [the helper will stand still]. The handler-and-dog team now are allowed up to two more attempts, starting again at the 7-meter mark. If the dog cannot be managed despite three attempts at heeling off-leash up to this point when the helper comes out of the blind to attack, the faulty courage test is interrupted (ended) for want of obedience. In such a case, the dog may subsequently participate (try again) in the same year at another breed survey after the SV returns the breed survey document to the owner. In such cases of lacking obedience, such a dog is allowed no more than three chances per calendar year to try again to pass the test.
6. The dog must avert the attack immediately, surely, and energetically, grabbing the attacker with a firm (steady), full-mouth bite.
7. When the dog has grasped, it receives from the helper two blows with a padded stick upon thighs, sides, or the area of the withers.
8. The dog handler is allowed to verbally encourage the dog in its defense of the attack.
9. Upon an order from the judge, the helper discontinues the attack and stands still.
10. At that point, the dog must let go of the sleeve independently or upon an audible signal from the handler to do so (“_Aus!_”) and stop the attack [but remain watchful].
11. The dog handler waits to get the order from the judge to approach his dog.
12. He leashes his dog and, upon signal or order from the judge, proceeds with his dog to another blind designated by the breed survey master [it is at the further end of the field].
*II. Defense of an Attack (Ambush) withLauerstellung *(liberally translated as the attacker running at the team from a distance)*:*
1. The dog handler will be told by the judge to come out from that second blind and take an assigned position (at the center far end of the field). [The leash is removed and pocketed or looped around the handler.]
2. The dog is held off-leash, by the collar.
3. The dog has to hold this position, until it is directed, by the handler’s audible signal “_Voran!_” (“Forward!”), to defend with an attack.
4. Upon a signal from the judge, the helper leaves his hiding place at the other end of the field, takes approximately 70 to 80 normal steps, then turns toward the dog-handler team, still at a normal pace.
5. The handler demands that the helper stop by calling something like “You! Stop there!”
6. The helper disregards this warning, and commences a [running, threatening] frontal attack on the dog and handler.
7. Immediately upon the helper starting his threatening charge toward the team, the judge gives the dog handler the signal to send his dog for their defense.
8. The dog handler immediately gives his dog the audible signal“_Voran!_” again, while remaining in place himself.
9. The dog must run at the intruder, then very eagerly and energetically grab the attacker with firm, full, sure, and steady grip and thus avert the threat on his owner or handler.
10. If the dog has gripped, the helper must press (push toward and threaten) the dog without striking it this time. Then, as instructed by the judge, the helper discontinues the struggle.
11. Thereupon the dog has to let go independently and/or upon the audible signal “_Aus!_”and must hold the helper by threat.12. Upon a signal from the judge, the dog handler approaches his dog at a normal pace and in a direct way, and attaches the leash.
13. The dog handler heels his dog to the judge, to report to him [giving his and his dog’s names] before leaving the field."


2013 Requirements for Participation at Breed Surveys | Fred Lanting


----------



## my boy diesel

hm
well perhaps we ought to do what they do then and only certify for breeding dogs that can do all that


----------



## Liesje

To ENTER a breed survey, one must have....

- FCI recognized registration
- official pedigree
- Schutzhund 1 (or higher) or HGH title
- BH
- AD* (*I believe not necessary if the dog has the HGH title)
- OFA or a-stamp hips
- a-stamp elbows** (**OFA elbows accepted for USCA breed survey but not SV)
- show card of "G" or better (G, SG, V, VA) earned in the 12-18, 18-24, or working class

That's to *enter* the breed survey. 

The dog must then*complete* the survey to actually get a KKL. That does involve some ringwork,* bitework*, and stand for exam. You must have all the requirements listed above AND present the dog for the actual survey to earn in and yes, that involves some bitework.


----------



## onyx'girl

Many responsible breeders use the SV standard as their breeding 'bible' The more you know, the better you do.


----------



## Lilie

DaniFani said:


> You are totally missing my point. There is so much more to SchH than biting the sleeve! A BH or any one of the obedience portions of IPO 1, 2, or 3, would prove a dog's ability to do rally. We have one person in our club who does AKC Obedience, Rally, and the tracking portion of SchH (as well as AKC tracking). She is one of the first to say, "oh, Rally's really easy and fun. Any dog can do it." Now, I've watched her train towards CDX and that's way more difficult.


At this point, what you have to say means nothing to me. You simply haven't put in enough time and experiance to respond. Speaking down to folks takes away any credibility you may have earned.


----------



## lhczth

Chris Wild said:


> Someone in the other thread that spurned this one commented that it seems that the people who say titles are meaningless (SchH in particular) are almost always people who have never stepped out on a field to title a dog. I agree. You don't tend to hear that from people who are experienced at it and therefore know firsthand what it requires. It's always the folks on the sidelines who say it doesn't prove anything.
> 
> I'd say the same tends to go for those who say working lines can't be pets. That opinion also seems to be exclusively held by people who have little or no experience actually living with them, not by those who do. But I'm going to try to avoid that tangent to the discussion and get back to titles.
> 
> The bottom line is that to produce a good dog requires good genetics. And temperament is genetic. Therefore, producing good temperament requires breeding dogs with good genetics for temperament. Part of that can be determined by looking at the pedigree and relatives. But one must also look at the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> Titles are a means to testing and proving temperament. The existance of a title does not mean a dog is breedworthy, only that it has been tested and, provided things were done correctly and there was no cheating involved, has met a minimum standard. What a title does say is that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time working with that dog to train it for that title, and in doing so that person has a pretty good understanding of the inner workings of the dog and it's core character. And thus that person can accurately assess whether or not that dog has a temperament suitable for breeding, and then use the additional info gained about the dog's strengths and weaknesses to make a good breeding decisions.
> 
> The more difficult, varied and stringent the requirements to earn a title, the more that is learned about the dog along the way. Obedience tells more about a dog than Rally. Obedience and tracking titles tell more about a dog than just one or the other. Something like SchH that involves 3 very different phases tells even more yet.
> 
> I've put SchH titles on several dogs. On every single one I knew before trial day if it was breedworthy or not based on what I learned on the long road to get that title. On the ones I knew were breedworthy I did it to prove to others that the dog was breedworthy and that I'd done the work to gain the knowledge of the dog. There were a couple I titled anyway even though I knew from working them that they really weren't breedworthy. By the "rules" the title says they are, but I knew that they were not. I wouldn't have learned that if not for the work put in.
> 
> I've also done AKC and UKC obedience and rally, SDA obedience, protection and tracking, and put CGCs on all of them except for my youngster at home that I haven't gotten around to yet. And therapy dog certifications on some of those vicious SchH dogs too. I can say from personal experience that I didn't learn much about the dogs doing those other titles that I hadn't already learned from working them in SchH. Actually the only thing it really proved is that they could easily transition from working outdoors with lots of space to the crowd and noise of an AKC type venue. But then I already knew that wouldn't be a problem from just living with them and taking them to loud and crowded places outside of training.
> 
> I can also say from personal experience that there is a whole lot to be uncovered and learned about a dog in SchH that absolutely cannot be uncovered through things like obedience and rally, and certainly not with a CGC or HIC. With regard to the CGC and TDIs, they provide zero additional information. Those tests are so remedial that there is absolutely no comparison. Not even to a BH, much less the other titles we achieved. Those were done strictly for the purpose of showing others that the SchH titles did not equate to biting machines. In addition to doing lots of CGCs on my own dogs I was an evaluator for several years and did dozens upon dozens of CGC tests and can guarantee you that absolutely nothing about that test even comes close to a decent evaluation of temperament for breeding.
> 
> With regard to SchH and other breed/type specific tests (as opposed to "all breed" things like obedience and rally), part of what is tested in the process of titling involves specific skillsets.. such as the ability to use the nose in tracking or the ability to engage a human in a fight in protection. Sometimes these skillsets are an important part of testing the dogs for unique traits that their breeds are supposed to have, which is why we have field trials for sporting breeds and earthdog trials for terriers. But much of titling tests other core aspects that must be present in every dog, no matter it's breed and no matter if it's intended to be a pet or a working dog: trainability, stability, ability to cope with stress without falling apart or getting hectic, ability to focus amidst distraction and excessive stimulation, ability to maintain self control and remain clear headed and responsive to the handler when in a state of high arousal/drive and under stress. Protection is far more than "hitting a sleeve at 45mph". It is far more than drive and fight. It is equally about the dog's ability to cope with stress, modulate his drive appropriately and control it, and remain clear headed and obedient which are essentially extreme tests of character and nerve.
> 
> I have never understood the "titles don't matter because I just want a pet". To me, that is akin to saying that temperament, nerve and ability to cope with stress with a clear head aren't important for "just pets". I can see that 45mph to the sleeve, or how good a dog is at tracking, not mattering for a pet, but there is so much more that titles test for beyond those. Things that are vitally important for any dog, and should be just as important to the pet owner as they are to someone with big aspirations of trophies and ribbons. Perhaps even more so when one takes into consideration the fact that a pet owner probably doesn't have the same level of knowledge, experience and resources that a serious trainer might and thus be less able to properly recognize and cope with temperament issues and behavioral problems.


:thumbup: Excellent Chris.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Okay, I'm going to introduce a tangent to this discussion.

What role should COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) play in determining a good breeding pair?

While I recognize that understanding the performance of the individual dogs will always be important, I still wonder how much concerns about overall genetic health of the breed population are considered when making breeding decisions.


----------



## Liesje

For me...no role whatsoever. I just looked at my dog's numbers today and honestly they mean nothing to me. I have no idea what number is considered "good" or "high" or how they are calculated. It seems that they don't always take into account linebreeding on dogs that are themselves linebred or inbred? Personally, just looking at the linebreeding numbers several generations out (ex. 5 - 5,5 or something like that) and knowing enough about the pedigree to see dogs 3, 4, 5, 6....or more generations back and know about *those* dogs and whether they were also linebred is what really matters. A single number cannot substitute for that knowledge or what to *do* with that knowledge. I did not have the COIs when I bred my dog but I definitely paid attention to the pedigrees and any linebreeding in both pedigrees or by mating them together.


----------



## Jack's Dad

LifeofRiley said:


> Okay, I'm going to introduce a tangent to this discussion.
> 
> What role should COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) play in determining a good breeding pair?
> 
> While I recognize that understanding the performance of the individual dogs will always be important, I still wonder how much concerns about overall genetic health of the breed population are considered when making breeding decisions.


Hello.


----------



## onyx'girl

wouldn't any responsible breeder research the breeding match before putting dogs together? They'd look at any line breeding and health issues that associate with said lines before deciding to go forward.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

my boy diesel said:


> i can go back and look but you said if a dog wouldnt or couldnt bite it was just a pet
> and i quote
> 
> *The HGH is acceptable in place of Schutzhund titles and dogs also need a show card of G or better, and hip and elbow certifications.*
> 
> now if its good enough for the germans it is good enough for me


 
Herding is not a test of nerve unless the dog is herding cattle or stock that actually challenges the dog. 
Yes I said if the dog cant bite its just pet quality, how you got that its the only important thing I can only imagine.


----------



## selzer

LifeofRiley said:


> Okay, I'm going to introduce a tangent to this discussion.
> 
> What role should COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) play in determining a good breeding pair?
> 
> While I recognize that understanding the performance of the individual dogs will always be important, I still wonder how much concerns about overall genetic health of the breed population are considered when making breeding decisions.


On a predominantly working line site, I suppose that the answers might be different than a predominantly show line site. Which is better, which is worse. The Germans allow 2-3 and breed extensively to VA dogs, which all have lines of inbreeding. 

I think that Stephanitz thought that the breed would be ruined to be bred with looks as the goal, but then he set up the seiger show and chose the seiger and seigerin each year. Had he required the dogs meet a physical standard and then had a schutzhund competition to name the top dog, then maybe the GSD would look differently today.

But my guess is the COI will be a lot different if you are breeding for show as opposed for working as opposed to sport.


----------



## Chris Wild

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Herding is not a test of nerve unless the dog is herding cattle or stock that actually challenges the dog.
> Yes I said if the dog cant bite its just pet quality, how you got that its the only important thing I can only imagine.


You don't think sheep will challenge the dog? Or that a 250lb herd ram could put up a bit of a fight? 

Chasing 3-4 sheep around a round pen isn't really herding and isn't a breed test. Managing, moving and tending hundreds of sheep is.


----------



## Saphire

Lilie said:


> At this point, what you have to say means nothing to me. You simply haven't put in enough time and experiance to respond. Speaking down to folks takes away any credibility you may have earned.


Speaking down to folks? I thought it was quite informative. 

I think it might be you who is speaking down right now.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## selzer

The problem is that most of us, really haven't been around many sheep. I mean there was a little herd of these smallish sheep brought in by the Pyrean Shepherd Club, they were like miniature sheep. 

The dogs were all excited. My friend and I both passed the herding instinct test, not because they would chase the sheep, but they explained what the dog's style was -- mine kept checking (looking) back with me to ensure she was doing what I wanted her to do. I was just happy that she didn't bite one and I wouldn't have to pay for it.

But how many of us get up close and personal with a 250 pound ram? And where there are sheep, there are predators. A sheep herding dog that is bred to herd the sheep and guard the sheep, like a GSD, has to challenge and eliminate threats to the sheep. The Pyrean Shepherd works in tandem with a Great Pyrenese. The German farmers did not have the means to keep multiple dogs for multiple functions, so they wanted a breed that could move the sheep and protect them.

Definitely, using their herding instinct all day covers endurance, covers work ethic, covers character, covers courage.


----------



## sitstay

Chris Wild said:


> You don't think sheep will challenge the dog? Or that a 250lb herd ram could put up a bit of a fight?
> 
> Chasing 3-4 sheep around a round pen isn't really herding and isn't a breed test. Managing, moving and tending hundreds of sheep is.


I can attest to the fact that rams (and many ewes) put up a fight and you need a dog that has the courage to not back down from either a posturing challenge or an actual charge. Kind of like in bitework you need a dog that won't back down from a posturing challenge or an actual charge. It doesn't matter if it is a 250lb man or a 250lb ram. The courage and clear-headed thinking needed to deal with it are exactly the same.

An interesting behavior I noticed with my dog was that the more sheep he was given to work, the better he got. Getting in a small pasture with 10 sheep was a lot of fun for him. But it wasn't until we were out there working 100+ sheep in huge acreages (100+) that he really started to come into his own. We can work those kinds of numbers out here, with thousands of acres of public grazing land and very large flocks.

It is an amazing thing.
Sheilah


----------



## DaniFani

Lilie said:


> At this point, what you have to say means nothing to me. You simply haven't put in enough time and experiance to respond. Speaking down to folks takes away any credibility you may have earned.


Lol, but you've had a change of heart as well? We agree…Now that others have commented, you believe Rally isn't enough, so why are we arguing, why are you picking a fight with me?? Now that people with the proper level of experience in your eyes, have agreed that Rally isn't enough, you agree with me….Rally isn't enough.


----------



## sparra

sit said:


> I can attest to the fact that rams (and many ewes) put up a fight and you need a dog that has the courage to not back down from either a posturing challenge or an actual charge. Kind of like in bitework you need a dog that won't back down from a posturing challenge or an actual charge. It doesn't matter if it is a 250lb man or a 250lb ram. The courage and clear-headed thinking needed to deal with it are exactly the same.
> 
> An interesting behavior I noticed with my dog was that the more sheep he was given to work, the better he got. Getting in a small pasture with 10 sheep was a lot of fun for him. But it wasn't until we were out there working 100+ sheep in huge acreages (100+) that he really started to come into his own. We can work those kinds of numbers out here, with thousands of acres of public grazing land and very large flocks.
> 
> It is an amazing thing.
> Sheilah


Absolutely. If you work with sheep on a daily basis you soon learn what they like. There is safety in numbers.
Mobs of 200 sheep or more are often very calm even with the dogs around which in turn makes the dogs calmer......get only a few sheep on their own and it is much different.
I got flattened the other day by one of our rams......he wanted to get through a gap and I was in his way.....he just went straight over me......cheeky bugger....... Luther has been flattened too but it hasn't put him off so he is tough.....


----------



## phgsd

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Herding is not a test of nerve unless the dog is herding cattle or stock that actually challenges the dog.


Even if the stock challenge the dog I wouldn't say that's a test of nerve - I would call it a test of fight drive or courage. A direct challenge is definitely uncommon but it can happen, especially during breeding season. We had a 250+ pound ram go after Kessy once. She dove under his head as he tried to crush her, and latched onto his neck. He wouldn't back down and neither would she - I had to pull her off. After that, she watched the ram like a hawk and didn't let him get away with anything. The ram was taken away after breeding season - when he was brought back the next year, she remembered and again watched him like a hawk. If he got anywhere near the border she'd nail him. 

Are there aspects that test nerve? Absolutely. Strength of character is tested when the dog is put into a stand on a tight corner - can it hold up to the pressure of the flock pushing against it as the flock passes by? That is A LOT of pressure. 

If the sheep decide to take off and basically stampede - does the dog have the strength of character to head off 2 tons of sheep? 

If the flock of 200+ is moving tightly along a treeline or a fence, does the dog have the strength of character to dive in and push them off?

In my years of herding I was in all of the above situations, some many times,- and the bottom line is that there are dogs that can pass an HGH and then there are dogs that can also be real, full time farm dogs. Just like with schutzhund - some can pass, but could never do the work in "real" situations.

There are other aspects that do test nerve and strength of character, but the HGH is just a title and does not mean a dog is breedworthy. Just like in schutzhund - the most important part is learning your dogs' strengths and weaknesses. 

And don't get me started on flock size - a small flock of terrified sheep is not much of a challenge. That can make any dog feel strong. A flock of hundreds of heavy sheep is a completely different story. The dog needs to know without a doubt that it can control the sheep. Some dogs are just that confident - some can get there with positive experiences. But some will never be that confident.

Also, the flock won't respect a dog unless it's earned. The flock would never try some things with Kessy that they'd try with some other dogs. They aren't the brightest animals but they do know dogs. They can read whether a dog is confident, and if it isn't, they will walk all over it. 

I've been meaning to put together an article to discuss how HGH-style herding tests most of the same elements of temperament as schutzhund, and other things it can teach you about your dog. But it seems like the people who don't want to hear that tending a large flock isn't easy will not be swayed, and the people who do "get it" don't need to hear it from me LOL

Sorry if I went off on a tangent with the herding stuff - but after titling 2 dogs and spending years tending sheep I learned quite a bit and could go on for hours LOL


----------



## Merciel

phgsd said:


> Sorry if I went off on a tangent with the herding stuff - but after titling 2 dogs and spending years tending sheep I learned quite a bit and could go on for hours LOL


Nooo don't apologize, it's fascinating and just a few pages ago everybody was saying how hard it is to find someone who knows this stuff. I wish you'd talk about it more.


----------



## gsdsar

I wish you would talk more about herding. I tried it with my boy. We will go back. My instructor does C test AKC. there are no HGH people within reasonable driving distance. I know it's not the same. But I did see a huge difference in my dog the more sheep he was on. 

I absolutely think it's a great title, but just like SchH, it's not the title that makes the dog breed worthy. It's what's learned about the dog in the time leading up to the title. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## volcano

Titles are like a college degree- dont mean much unless you meet the individual. And if you know the parents then that trumps titles if you know what youre looking for.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Merciel said:


> Nooo don't apologize, it's fascinating and just a few pages ago everybody was saying how hard it is to find someone who knows this stuff. I wish you'd talk about it more.


Me too.


----------



## boomer11

phgsd said:


> Even if the stock challenge the dog I wouldn't say that's a test of nerve - I would call it a test of fight drive or courage. A direct challenge is definitely uncommon but it can happen, especially during breeding season. We had a 250+ pound ram go after Kessy once. She dove under his head as he tried to crush her, and latched onto his neck. He wouldn't back down and neither would she - I had to pull her off. After that, she watched the ram like a hawk and didn't let him get away with anything. The ram was taken away after breeding season - when he was brought back the next year, she remembered and again watched him like a hawk. If he got anywhere near the border she'd nail him.
> 
> Are there aspects that test nerve? Absolutely. Strength of character is tested when the dog is put into a stand on a tight corner - can it hold up to the pressure of the flock pushing against it as the flock passes by? That is A LOT of pressure.
> 
> If the sheep decide to take off and basically stampede - does the dog have the strength of character to head off 2 tons of sheep?
> 
> If the flock of 200+ is moving tightly along a treeline or a fence, does the dog have the strength of character to dive in and push them off?
> 
> In my years of herding I was in all of the above situations, some many times,- and the bottom line is that there are dogs that can pass an HGH and then there are dogs that can also be real, full time farm dogs. Just like with schutzhund - some can pass, but could never do the work in "real" situations.
> 
> There are other aspects that do test nerve and strength of character, but the HGH is just a title and does not mean a dog is breedworthy. Just like in schutzhund - the most important part is learning your dogs' strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> And don't get me started on flock size - a small flock of terrified sheep is not much of a challenge. That can make any dog feel strong. A flock of hundreds of heavy sheep is a completely different story. The dog needs to know without a doubt that it can control the sheep. Some dogs are just that confident - some can get there with positive experiences. But some will never be that confident.
> 
> Also, the flock won't respect a dog unless it's earned. The flock would never try some things with Kessy that they'd try with some other dogs. They aren't the brightest animals but they do know dogs. They can read whether a dog is confident, and if it isn't, they will walk all over it.
> 
> I've been meaning to put together an article to discuss how HGH-style herding tests most of the same elements of temperament as schutzhund, and other things it can teach you about your dog. But it seems like the people who don't want to hear that tending a large flock isn't easy will not be swayed, and the people who do "get it" don't need to hear it from me LOL
> 
> Sorry if I went off on a tangent with the herding stuff - but after titling 2 dogs and spending years tending sheep I learned quite a bit and could go on for hours LOL


Very insightful. Thanks for taking the time to write that.


----------



## phgsd

I just haven't been on the forums much anymore. I have gotten pretty discouraged with the breed, I guess. Too much drama, politics, disappointment since we were not able to continue our HGH club and that was something I truly loved. There was just not enough interest. One of these days I'll have to write all of my experiences/thoughts down but right now my heart just isn't in it.

It just makes me very sad - there was HGH herding available in NJ which is such a highly populated area, and such a great area for dog sports. 

Anyway...other things tested by tending a large flock:

Resilience - in the beginning the dogs are set up to succeed, either on a long line or with netting as a border. But eventually that border is taken down and the dog must learn that it has to stay on the border. With each dog that requires at least one or two strong corrections. Often the crook would fly. A lot of dogs would wash out at that point. They just couldn't bounce back.

Work ethic - any dog should be able to work for a "lesson" time, 45 minutes to an hour. But will the dog keep going all day? What about in the heat/humidity? Or if they aren't feeling well?

Again I have to use Kessy as an example - she ran her last HGH trial in full blown kidney failure. I didn't realize she was so sick. She still worked her heart out. She's doing much better now but it was really touch and go for a while.

The dogs also have to have a balance of obedience and independence. It doesn't have to be a perfect balance - and what's perfect for one person/dog "team" would be different for another.

If the dog is too independent it will blow off commands and will do what it wants. It makes the dog very difficult (if not impossible) to train.

Some dogs are too obedient and will not work independently. These dogs can still be worked and titled but you always have to be commanding them and telling them exactly what to do. IMO that's no fun! 

Ideally you want a dog that will work on its own, especially in the graze, but who will still follow commands when they are given.


----------



## Dainerra

martemchik said:


> The problem is, most of you are equating byb to bad nerves. The truth is, most byb dogs get along just fine in life. I do believe and assume that there is a higher rate of poor temperament (bad to the point of dangerous) in byb dogs, but it’s not much higher than with reputable breeders. Reputable breeders make mistakes and end up with nerve bags and they also end up with dogs that have less than perfect nerves for sport when they do get into the sport and get tested. .


the biggest difference is that in a good breeders litter, they are flukes. In a byb, they are just shrugged off and the same breeding repeated.

Also, the difference in what is required for the dog to be "just fine" In most homes in my area, that means that the dog doesn't go on killing sprees on the neighbor's livestock and that the dog has attacked any humans to the point of someone calling the police. I know many local dogs who have bitten badly enough to require stitches but the owners shrug it off saying "ah they probably deserved it."

The dogs don't have to adjust to much of anything. The dog turns out to be crazy and nervy around kids? Not that big a deal, the dog just goes outside to live out it's life on a chain or in a kennel. The intention was never to have the dog participate really in the family life. 

Pet people and many byb don't know what they don't know. They see a dog that is fearful and growling and think "Awesome! He is naturally protective" Dog growls at the husband/wife who dares to hug the favored spouse? Dog is protective and obviously breeding potential. The pups all have the same temperament but the buyers, lacking in knowledge, see this behavior as a PLUS!!!


----------



## Dainerra

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think a big thing it boils down to is, and I see it all the time with 'newbies', (not all mind you)they want a dog, but they don't want to PAY an arm and leg for it, which is usually below 1000$. They don't want to show, they don't care about titles, they want a 'pet', but it's hard to get it thru their head, just because "you" don't want those things, doesn't mean the PRICE of a puppy is going to be cheaper..It 'may be', but it's usually someone breeding indiscriminately.


in my area, the going rate is $200-$500. Most people complain about paying that much. And there are a LOT of breeders out there who are willing to fill that demand. One person on a local group has a litter advertised every couple months.
Another is on her third litter of "police dogs" Mom and Dad (a shep and a mal) are both supposed to work for a PD in central AR.


----------



## blackshep

Chris Wild said:


> There is far more to SchH than just bitework. And there is far more to bitework than just biting. But anyway....


 I agree with this. I'm not saying SchH is the only thing that matters when training/titling/breeding GSD's, but I do think the bitework gives you a ton of information about your dog's nerves, thresholds, self-control etc.

I also think that SchH is like three titles wrapped into one, so people really know their dogs by the time they get it titled.

That said, I think sometimes dogs bred for SchH with only SchH in mind can sometimes lose other qualities, be a bit too hard/excitable etc, but overall I think it's an excellent test of courage and bidability. I think it would be great if more people who title in schH would also title their in something else, just to really round out the picture, but it's maybe not necessary.


----------



## carmspack

last summer my son and his girlfriend went to visit her folks in Munich . They said that right there in the city heart , there was a shepherd with her GSD keeping a flock of sheep under control as they grazed in this park . There was every imaginable stimulation yet the dogs worked diligently with composure. That is a test of nerve . She decided to go back "home" to help out with family . We just said goodbye to her last week -- but there was a promise to keep in touch and so I have asked her to send me pictures and to get me some pedigree information . By their description these dogs were not Kirschental type dogs


----------



## SunCzarina

volcano said:


> Titles are like a college degree- dont mean much unless you meet the individual. And if you know the parents then that trumps titles if you know what youre looking for.


most intelligent comment on this thread so far.

Other fascinating herding lesson and Chris' comments.


----------



## Lilie

DaniFani said:


> Lol, but you've had a change of heart as well? We agree…Now that others have commented, you believe Rally isn't enough, so why are we arguing, why are you picking a fight with me?? Now that people with the proper level of experience in your eyes, have agreed that Rally isn't enough, you agree with me….Rally isn't enough.


Ummm...No, still means nothing to me.


----------



## SunCzarina

Me either, I can't even make sense out of it.


----------



## shepherdmom

Dainerra said:


> in my area, the going rate is $200-$500. Most people complain about paying that much.


Of course they do. Back to the college comparison...If you have a kid who wants to be a mechanic, are you going to send that kid to Harvard or MIT? Or are you going to go local and get him some certifications at Billy Bob's garage? 

Most pet owners are going to be happy with a dog with some health certifications, they aren't going to understand what all those fancy titles mean and even if you try to explain it they probably won't care. Their eyes will just glaze over.


----------



## my boy diesel

this is great
it is what i think of when i think of the quintessential gsd 



phgsd said:


> Even if the stock challenge the dog I wouldn't say that's a test of nerve - I would call it a test of fight drive or courage. A direct challenge is definitely uncommon but it can happen, especially during breeding season. We had a 250+ pound ram go after Kessy once. She dove under his head as he tried to crush her, and latched onto his neck. He wouldn't back down and neither would she - I had to pull her off. After that, she watched the ram like a hawk and didn't let him get away with anything. The ram was taken away after breeding season - when he was brought back the next year, she remembered and again watched him like a hawk. If he got anywhere near the border she'd nail him.
> 
> Are there aspects that test nerve? Absolutely. Strength of character is tested when the dog is put into a stand on a tight corner - can it hold up to the pressure of the flock pushing against it as the flock passes by? That is A LOT of pressure.
> 
> If the sheep decide to take off and basically stampede - does the dog have the strength of character to head off 2 tons of sheep?
> 
> If the flock of 200+ is moving tightly along a treeline or a fence, does the dog have the strength of character to dive in and push them off?
> 
> In my years of herding I was in all of the above situations, some many times,- and the bottom line is that there are dogs that can pass an HGH and then there are dogs that can also be real, full time farm dogs. Just like with schutzhund - some can pass, but could never do the work in "real" situations.
> 
> There are other aspects that do test nerve and strength of character, but the HGH is just a title and does not mean a dog is breedworthy. Just like in schutzhund - the most important part is learning your dogs' strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> And don't get me started on flock size - a small flock of terrified sheep is not much of a challenge. That can make any dog feel strong. A flock of hundreds of heavy sheep is a completely different story. The dog needs to know without a doubt that it can control the sheep. Some dogs are just that confident - some can get there with positive experiences. But some will never be that confident.
> 
> Also, the flock won't respect a dog unless it's earned. The flock would never try some things with Kessy that they'd try with some other dogs. They aren't the brightest animals but they do know dogs. They can read whether a dog is confident, and if it isn't, they will walk all over it.
> 
> I've been meaning to put together an article to discuss how HGH-style herding tests most of the same elements of temperament as schutzhund, and other things it can teach you about your dog. But it seems like the people who don't want to hear that tending a large flock isn't easy will not be swayed, and the people who do "get it" don't need to hear it from me LOL
> 
> Sorry if I went off on a tangent with the herding stuff - but after titling 2 dogs and spending years tending sheep I learned quite a bit and could go on for hours LOL


----------



## martemchik

Dainerra said:


> the biggest difference is that in a good breeders litter, they are flukes. In a byb, they are just shrugged off and the same breeding repeated.


And you have statistical data to back this up? Or are you just assuming they don't care enough and just keep doing it?

I'm pretty sure the owners of those "flukes" from reputable breeders don't care much that the breeder won't repeat the breeding again, and guess what, I've seen plenty of times when a puppy is found to have HD and the breeder still uses the dog or bitch but claims "well I'm not doing the SAME breeding." And I'm sure that if your dog ends up with HD after having paid $1500 for it, it would make you feel much better knowing that the same pair isn't used. Or when you find out my $500 dog has good hips and elbows... Or when that dog from a reputable breeder has weak nerves and ends up biting your kid...I'm sure you feel really good knowing that that pair will probably never get bred together again...unless of course the breeder has already pumped thousands of dollars into training/trialing that IPO3 titled dog and knows they can still make quite a bite of money from it.

See here... http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-continue-breed-sire-produces-dysplasia.html 

I'm not trying to put down reputable breeders, I support them 100%, and I will always go to one, but your "reality" is highly skewed if you believe that byb are the only ones producing bad dogs. The dogs are not all nerve bags, and are fine pets. And although I hate generalizing lines...I've seen more WL byb dogs that are capable of doing work such as IPO and AKC obedience/rally than ASL dogs bred by "reputable breeders."


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Of course they do. Back to the college comparison...If you have a kid who wants to be a mechanic, are you going to send that kid to Harvard or MIT? Or are you going to go local and get him some certifications at Billy Bob's garage?
> 
> Most pet owners are going to be happy with a dog with some health certifications, they aren't going to understand what all those fancy titles mean and even if you try to explain it they probably won't care. Their eyes will just glaze over.


When I was looking for my first dog, I equated the BREEDER going to shows and enjoying their hobby and ME paying for it. Now that I'm into sport, I understand better, but if I never got into sport...why would I continue to support someone else's hobby with my hard earned money?


----------



## RocketDog

Merciel said:


> Nooo don't apologize, it's fascinating and just a few pages ago everybody was saying how hard it is to find someone who knows this stuff.* I wish you'd talk about it more*.


I third this. Excellent post, phgsd. Miss you on this board.


----------



## my boy diesel

DaniFani said:


> Lol, but you've had a change of heart as well? We agree…Now that others have commented, you believe Rally isn't enough, so why are we arguing, why are you picking a fight with me?? Now that people with the proper level of experience in your eyes, have agreed that Rally isn't enough, you agree with me….Rally isn't enough.


i have scoured this thread and cannot find a post by lilie 
stating she believes a rally title by itself is good enough to breed on
perhaps i have overlooked it :shrug:


----------



## martemchik

Lilie said:


> You are SO WRONG! I do buy the fact that CGC isn't really breed worthy title. Especially since they can be earned at such and early age of a dog. The CGC doesn't mean much to me.
> 
> But I disagree STRONGLY that the only standard that should be used is through any sort of bite work.
> 
> Good Lord! A GSD is supposed to be used in all sorts of venues. If I wanted a Rally rockstar, I'd go to a breeder that does Rally with their dogs. Or Herding or Agility or Scent work or a Service dog....the list goes on and on.
> 
> Take off your blinders.


Here you go diesel.


----------



## Lilie

my boy diesel said:


> this is great
> it is what i think of when i think of the quintessential gsd


Oh! I agree!


----------



## my boy diesel

martem i read that but that post does not say she believes in rally only as a title worthy of breeding
simply that she would visit a breeder that "does rally with their dogs" but when i read it i figured "along with everything else" was implied

just because someone does rally with their dogs doesnt mean they built a rally dog empire and that is all they do


----------



## Bequavious

LifeofRiley said:


> Okay, I'm going to introduce a tangent to this discussion.
> 
> What role should COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) play in determining a good breeding pair?
> 
> While I recognize that understanding the performance of the individual dogs will always be important, I still wonder how much concerns about overall genetic health of the breed population are considered when making breeding decisions.


So I had to look up COI and only briefly read over it, but it looks fascinating! I had no idea people were measuring the level of inbreeding in their stock. I know dogs have slightly less genetic variability than wolves, and purebred dogs have even less, but I'm not sure if this is something most breeders (the kind who title their dogs and such) care about?



Dainerra said:


> the biggest difference is that in a good breeders litter, they are flukes. In a byb, they are just shrugged off and the same breeding repeated.
> 
> Also, the difference in what is required for the dog to be "just fine" In most homes in my area, that means that the dog doesn't go on killing sprees on the neighbor's livestock and that the dog has attacked any humans to the point of someone calling the police. I know many local dogs who have bitten badly enough to require stitches but the owners shrug it off saying "ah they probably deserved it."
> 
> The dogs don't have to adjust to much of anything. The dog turns out to be crazy and nervy around kids? Not that big a deal, the dog just goes outside to live out it's life on a chain or in a kennel. The intention was never to have the dog participate really in the family life.
> 
> Pet people and many byb don't know what they don't know. They see a dog that is fearful and growling and think "Awesome! He is naturally protective" Dog growls at the husband/wife who dares to hug the favored spouse? Dog is protective and obviously breeding potential. The pups all have the same temperament but the buyers, lacking in knowledge, see this behavior as a PLUS!!!


If this is really the condition of the pet dogs in your area, than I am truly sorry. The _vast_ majority of the people in my area have pet dogs that were either rescued (indicating they did not come from a breeder who permanently identified their dogs or who refused to take them back when they were offered) or were bought from people who did not title their breeding pair(s). The _vast_ majority of these dogs also make great pets- they go out for walks, they play with the kids, they bark at the door, and they attack visitors with kisses and wags (or the older/more aloof ones go lay down out of the way).

I certainly understand that the people who want to better the breed and have really awesome dogs, want titles to better understand their dogs and know if that dog is worth reproducing. However, it's kind of crazy to think a dog has to be tested to this degree to know if it will be good around kids. Are the pup's parents good around kids and friendly toward strangers? Then the pup probably will be too. The average person who wants a dog flat out isn't going to put in the time and money it takes to get a well-bred dog, and most of them will turn out just fine.


----------



## martemchik

my boy diesel said:


> martem i read that but that post does not say she believes in rally only as a title worthy of breeding
> simply that she would visit a breeder that "does rally with their dogs" but when i read it i figured "along with everything else" was implied
> 
> just because someone does rally with their dogs doesnt mean they built a rally dog empire and that is all they do


The way I read that, was more of, if all I want to do is rally, I'll find a GSD breeder that does rally and get a dog from them. Same with the other sports.

I know its not exactly that, but that's the way I saw it. It's like the border collie breeders breeding agility superstars and not worrying anymore about herding.

And just a side note on rally...the reason rally isn't a good breed test is that as a "novice handler" I haven't lost a single rally trial I have entered. I got my RE in 9 trials, and I am 2 legs into my RAE with first places in both classes. I like the sport, but to even insinuate that a person should be alright purchasing a dog from someone that's rolling through rally trials is a joke.


----------



## Lilie

my boy diesel said:


> martem i read that but that post does not say she believes in rally only as a title worthy of breeding
> simply that she would visit a breeder that "does rally with their dogs" but when i read it i figured "along with everything else" was implied
> 
> just because someone does rally with their dogs doesnt mean they built a rally dog empire and that is all they do


You are correct....but I never considered building and empire...now, that's something to think about *insert evil laugh here*.....and empire of Rally dogs, we'd take over the world!


----------



## Lilie

martemchik said:


> I like the sport, but to even insinuate that a person should be alright purchasing a dog from someone that's rolling through rally trials is a joke.


No more of a joke to me then to insinuate that a person should be alright purchasing a dog from someone that's rolling through any type of specific sport. Respected breeders aren't that limited minded.


----------



## Jax08

I see much talk about specific titles but nothing on diversity of the line.

My breeder has dogs in Herding, SAR, sport, guide, AKC events and K9's as well as family pets. All out of the same litters. The breed is supposed to be versatile! The dogs should be able to go do Rally and still do herding or IPO.

Above and beyond what titles a single dog has, what is the rest of that line doing? I specifically looked at that when I was looking for a breeder. I didn't want a dog bred strictly from sport dogs to produce more sport dogs. I wanted a German Shepherd what was capable of doing any sport I decided on and still settle in the house as a good family pet. IMO, THAT is what they are SUPPOSED to be.


----------



## DaniFani

Lilie said:


> Ummm...No, still means nothing to me.


Edit... Nevermind, not worth it. 

Back on topic, the herding thing has been very interesting to read about. There is a small club near me that does herding. I've thought of checking it out. It'd definitely be something new and completely different to try. I was told something about starting out on ducks? Someone should start a thread just talking about herding. If love to read that.


----------



## DaniFani

[quote;5271618]I see much talk about specific titles but nothing on diversity of the line.

My breeder has dogs in Herding, SAR, sport, guide, AKC events and K9's as well as family pets. All out of the same litters. The breed is supposed to be versatile! The dogs should be able to go do Rally and still do herding or IPO.

Above and beyond what titles a single dog has, what is the rest of that line doing? I specifically looked at that when I was looking for a breeder. I didn't want a dog bred strictly from sport dogs to produce more sport dogs. I wanted a German Shepherd what was capable of doing any sport I decided on and still settle in the house as a good family pet. IMO, THAT is what they are SUPPOSED to be.[/quote]

Agreed. That was one of the things I loved about my dogs pedigree. I was actually chatting with a few on here that have been around for awhile and they were telling me the different dogs that work in the real world, that have come from the dogs in my pups pedigree. It's nice to see real working dogs in the pedigree, as well as, or alongside all the titles behind the names. It shows a well roundedness that I think is important in a utility breed.


----------



## RocketDog

There were others who couldn't quite figure that out either.


----------



## martemchik

Jax08 said:


> I see much talk about specific titles but nothing on diversity of the line.
> 
> My breeder has dogs in Herding, SAR, sport, guide, AKC events and K9's as well as family pets. All out of the same litters. The breed is supposed to be versatile! The dogs should be able to go do Rally and still do herding or IPO.
> 
> Above and beyond what titles a single dog has, what is the rest of that line doing? I specifically looked at that when I was looking for a breeder. I didn't want a dog bred strictly from sport dogs to produce more sport dogs. I wanted a German Shepherd what was capable of doing any sport I decided on and still settle in the house as a good family pet. IMO, THAT is what they are SUPPOSED to be.


This is very true...but the point is kind of that a dog out of IPO3 parents, will probably (high likelihood) will be able to do IPO and also many of the other things you have listed because *gasp* IPO is a much more demanding sport and is much more difficult so it proves a lot more about the dog and its nerves. A dog out of two RAE parents, with a CGC and HIC thrown on top of it, while likely to be able to do rally, might not be able to do IPO, or even agility or AKC obedience (there's a reason people have RAEx10 instead of going on to get a CD).


----------



## Jax08

martemchik said:


> This is very true...but the point is kind of that a dog out of IPO3 parents, will probably (high likelihood) will be able to do IPO and also many of the other things you have listed because *gasp* IPO is a much more demanding sport and is much more difficult so it proves a lot more about the dog and its nerves. A dog out of two RAE parents, with a CGC and HIC thrown on top of it, while likely to be able to do rally, might not be able to do IPO, or even agility or AKC obedience (there's a reason people have RAEx10 instead of going on to get a CD).


Where did I say otherwise? In fact, I stated at the start of this thread that Rally, in my opinion, is not a breedable title so I guess I got that point *gasp* pages ago. I was not addressing that particular point in this last post.

Just because a dog has an IPO3 does not make is more likely they can do all these other things. People are breeding specifically for sport IPO dogs and creating prey monsters with no off switch and unbalanced drives. Many threads on this topic.


----------



## Saphire

SunCzarina said:


> Me either, I can't even make sense out of it.


What doesn't make sense to you? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## LoveEcho

Jax08 said:


> Just because a dog has an IPO3 does not make is more likely they can do all these other things. People are breeding specifically for sport IPO dogs and creating prey monsters with no off switch and unbalanced drives. Many threads on this topic.


Yep. I know plenty of dogs with IPO3's who are utterly useless and unstable off the field. They get shoved through by who the owner and TD knows, etc.

...which all goes back to Chris's post, and where this thread should have ended because that really WAS the be-all-end-all correct answer... it's the TOTAL PICTURE. Titles alone don't mean anything. It's the total picture.


----------



## Jax08

LoveEcho said:


> Yep. I know plenty of dogs with IPO3's who are utterly useless and unstable off the field.


I know one with an HGH that SCREAMS as soon as she gets out of the car. SCREAMS. She's over stimulated and reactive to EVERYTHING. People, dogs... Can not even focus long enough to learn articles if there is anything or anyone else around her.

And she just had a litter. 

I think the higher titles should be a base but then people need to look at the total dog.


----------



## RocketDog

Well, like Chris said: It's what the _journey towards the titles tells one about the dog_ in front of them.


----------



## DaniFani

RocketDog said:


> Therers who couldn't quite figure that out either.[/QUOTE like k9h my goodness, between the three of you I have my own for ppd wn little posse lol. I listed my experience in a thread it was "off topic" and deleted, so here it goes.
> 
> I've been training in schh three days a week (tracking more) for the last year and a half. I've had three dogs throughout that (not counting my corgi), my first died from heart disorder (among other issues), he got to over 200 paces in the track and started articles, second was a year and a half rottie, got her further in tracking and obedience foundation laid, same with bitework, she blew her cruciate recently, and my current pup.
> 
> I've also (for the last year) been assisting and observing over five classes of police k9s, the whole wash out process and beginning training for patrol and detection dogs. Also watched and assisted with several rehabs of "hopeless" euthanasia cases from the local shelter. All the dogs were rehabbed and rehomed.
> 
> Before that I was getting my degree in organismal biology. Which is zoology, I put an emphasis on animal behavior (actually took classes called "animal behavior"), I also did a lot of genetics. During my degree I had to get animal husbandry experience.
> 
> I worked with an equine vet for a year, in and out of several small animal clinics (preferred the large animal), and did a summer long internship at the zoo. The internship was specific to animal behavior. I had to do intensive study on certain behaviors, come up with a plan on how to train a certain animal a behavior, get it approved, and train that animal. At the same time I was supposed to assist with the on going training of all the animals in my area. My area was Africa, specifically the carnivores, but also like working with the monkeys and rhinos (they're like big puppies, it's pretty adorable). So I assisted in the training of the wild dogs, lions, Caracals, and mongoose (these were the animals I had to study the most).
> 
> I successfully completed the internship. Learned a lot about what makes animals tick, how to best manipulate them to get desired behaviors, etc.... During this time I also was working/volunteering at an animal shelter (dog walking, cage cleaning, adoption prep... The usual shelter stuff).
> 
> I had to do all this because I was preparing to apply to vet school and you need a certain amount of animal experience. Ended up decided the medical side of animals wasn't where I wanted to interact with them. Leading to IPO, the police canine training, etc....
> 
> Any who, there you go. My "animal resume".... Nah, it's not a lot of titling animals, but I think it's enough to have some opinions on little things. If you can find me anywhere saying how someone should train for anything, I'll eat my hat. I've said what I'd do, I've defended using aversives, told people with aggressive dogs to find a trainer, and get mad at the "should I Brees my pet" threads just like everyone else. I dont think I know much about titling, I think I could be on my 10th dog and still not know a lot. But I love it.


----------



## RocketDog

Tl;dr


----------



## SunCzarina

Jax08 said:


> I think the higher titles should be a base but then people need to look at the total dog.


The total body of the breeders work as well. If a breeder has produced SchH dogs, SAR dogs, service dogs and *gasp* rally dogs, I'm going to look at them. Opposed to the breeder who's breeding only sport dogs.


----------



## martemchik

LoveEcho said:


> Yep. I know plenty of dogs with IPO3's who are utterly useless and unstable off the field. They get shoved through by who the owner and TD knows, etc.
> 
> ...which all goes back to Chris's post, and where this thread should have ended because that really WAS the be-all-end-all correct answer... it's the TOTAL PICTURE. Titles alone don't mean anything. It's the total picture.


How do you expect a potential puppy buyer, that isn't involved in any sport, in any showing, but just wants to buy a GSD pup, to see this TOTAL PICTURE? When in many cases on this forum, the moment someone asks about a potential breeder, 98% of people start screaming if they don't see any working titles on the dogs? Or there is no record of any successful progeny?

The reason this thread started is because a breeder, who is breeding dogs that look quite good to a puppy purchaser and covers a lot of the bases this forum loves to make important (health tests and even advanced working titles), has come into question by other people that are more "knowledgeable." The titles that breeder is marketing are exactly the ones on here that are being questioned.

I'm not really worried about the majority of the people having this discussion and their choices in dogs. I know they'll support who they want and more than likely that breeder will be a good one. I'm trying to figure out how someone, that hasn't spent months on this forum, or has worked/trialed a dog, supposed to get the proper information about any potential breeder and know how to see through that IPO title achieved by a "prey animal."


----------



## Dainerra

They don't health title. They barely do basic health visits and rabies.
They say "I've never had problems"and people run to snatch up pups. They usually try to haggle the already low price even lower.
If something IS wrong with the puppy, they just replace our with another.
It's not at all like your college analogy. More that they expect the dog to be an MIT grad on a votech budget.
I've actually had someone bah me for saying that a gsd needs training. Her dogs have never needed even basic obedience and that every puppy she had ever breed is naturally trained and protective

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Whiteshepherds

carmspack said:


> last summer my son and his girlfriend went to visit her folks in Munich . They said that right there in the city heart , there was a shepherd with her GSD keeping a flock of sheep under control as they grazed in this park .


A friend of mine went to Germany twice and worked with Karl Fuller tending his herd. I don't know what it's like now but back then (late 80's/90's) she said they didn't have fences separating crops from grazing land, the dogs had to move the sheep away from areas they weren't so supposed to be in. Also cars had the right of way so again, it was the dogs job to move the herd out of harms way. 
She mentioned something about taking a hut with him, (pulled by horses if I remember right?) sometimes staying at night in that hut, other times depending how far away he was his wife would pick him up while the dog (dogs?) were left to guard the sheep until the next morning when he came back. 
Pretty interesting stories and pictures. Would love to have had the same experience. It might not be the same as Schutzhund but still pretty fascinating.


----------



## SunCzarina

You can't and that's why there are so many members here who's lament the behaviors of the first GSD before 'I knew better'

Random story: my neighbor's a 60+ year old lady and she's always had GSDs. Not into training, likes the company, total pet person. Nice lady though. She fell in love with Mien Luther (DDR), who had a sweet spot for her female Maxine. After Max died, she went looking for another puppy. She knows what the titles mean and went on what everyone here would tell her. Look for SchH and IPO titles. 

The dog she's got is a neurotic tail chasing mess that can't settle without Prosac because she's an over the top sport dog.


----------



## Jax08

martemchik said:


> How do you expect a potential puppy buyer, that isn't involved in any sport, in any showing, but just wants to buy a GSD pup, to see this TOTAL PICTURE? When in many cases on this forum, the moment someone asks about a potential breeder, 98% of people start screaming if they don't see any working titles on the dogs? Or there is no record of any successful progeny?
> 
> The reason this thread started is because a breeder, who is breeding dogs that look quite good to a puppy purchaser and covers a lot of the bases this forum loves to make important (health tests and even advanced working titles), has come into question by other people that are more "knowledgeable." The titles that breeder is marketing are exactly the ones on here that are being questioned.
> 
> I'm not really worried about the majority of the people having this discussion and their choices in dogs. I know they'll support who they want and more than likely that breeder will be a good one. I'm trying to figure out how someone, that hasn't spent months on this forum, or has worked/trialed a dog, supposed to get the proper information about any potential breeder and know how to see through that IPO title achieved by a "prey animal."


Go to clubs, go to events. Watch the dogs. I advise people do that all the time when they post asking about breeders. Take your time and learn.

That is how I found my puppy, not from the internet. 

If I went to a club and saw that dog screaming, no way do I want a puppy from her. I watched two dogs from the same breeder (half sibling). One I liked and the other I didn't. 

Some people want a higher prey. Others like a higher defense. 

Take your time and learn. At least that's what I did. To each their own.


----------



## my boy diesel

*The dog she's got is a neurotic tail chasing mess that can't settle without Prosac because she's an over the top sport dog.
__________________*

sadly sables are the new fad it seems
and so you have a ton of folks breeding them for the pet community because they look cool

we could go round and round about titles but bybs will always exist to peddle dogs to people who should not have them and have no idea what they are getting into


----------



## LoveEcho

martemchik said:


> How do you expect a potential puppy buyer, that isn't involved in any sport, in any showing, but just wants to buy a GSD pup, to see this TOTAL PICTURE? When in many cases on this forum, the moment someone asks about a potential breeder, 98% of people start screaming if they don't see any working titles on the dogs? Or there is no record of any successful progeny?
> 
> The reason this thread started is because a breeder, who is breeding dogs that look quite good to a puppy purchaser and covers a lot of the bases this forum loves to make important (health tests and even advanced working titles), has come into question by other people that are more "knowledgeable." The titles that breeder is marketing are exactly the ones on here that are being questioned.
> 
> I'm not really worried about the majority of the people having this discussion and their choices in dogs. I know they'll support who they want and more than likely that breeder will be a good one. I'm trying to figure out how someone, that hasn't spent months on this forum, or has worked/trialed a dog, supposed to get the proper information about any potential breeder and know how to see through that IPO title achieved by a "prey animal."


That's a really good point- it's interesting how that gets lost when a bunch of sport nuts, etc, start arguing among themselves.

It's hard to answer that question without some sort of bias that comes from being knowledgeable about the breed. We can all argue all day long about what SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be bred, but if we all think back to when we got our first dogs... many of us had absolutely no idea. Once we got more educated we knew what we were looking for and formed opinions based on experiences. I'm not sure there IS a right answer as to how a newbie to the breed is supposed to know- especially considering the shocking lack of common sense we see every day on this board.


----------



## martemchik

Jax08 said:


> Go to clubs, go to events. Watch the dogs. I advise people do that all the time when they post asking about breeders. Take your time and learn.
> 
> That is how I found my puppy, not from the internet.
> 
> If I went to a club and saw that dog screaming, no way do I want a puppy from her. I watched two dogs from the same breeder (half sibling). One I liked and the other I didn't.
> 
> Some people want a higher prey. Others like a higher defense.
> 
> Take your time and learn. At least that's what I did. To each their own.


Lol...I love this advice and I agree 100%...but lets be serious.

You want people, that have no interest in showing or trialing, to take their weekend, and "waste" it at a training club or a dog event? They don't have a dog to train, and you want them to go watch other people train dogs? Can you seriously tell me you know people that would do that?


----------



## Lilie

Jax08 said:


> Go to clubs, go to events. Watch the dogs. I advise people do that all the time when they post asking about breeders. Take your time and learn.
> 
> That is how I found my puppy, not from the internet.


I totally agree! IMO - Going to clubs and events you are more likely to see what (and how) the offspring of certain dogs are doing. That will give you a better picture of what you could expect if you go with a specific breeding.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

martemchik said:


> Lol...I love this advice and I agree 100%...but lets be serious.
> 
> You want people, that have no interest in showing or trialing, to take their weekend, and "waste" it at a training club or a dog event? They don't have a dog to train, and you want them to go watch other people train dogs? Can you seriously tell me you know people that would do that?


I know I wouldn't have. Sometimes the right thing to do isn't what you actually do. Not sure what the purpose is of my post - do I agree with you? Yes. do I wish I could disagree? Absolutely.


----------



## RocketDog

There isn't really anything here in Spokane. Other than my breeder, whom....well, nvmnd. 

I could go to the West side, or a little farther south to Oregon, even up to Canada. And I would/will, but it's not like I can spend every weekend going over there right now. It's almost 400 miles just to Seattle from my house. 

Availability of clubs really depends on where you live.


----------



## Chris Wild

SunCzarina said:


> The dog she's got is a neurotic tail chasing mess that can't settle without Prosac because she's an over the top sport dog.


No, she shows those behaviors because she is a nervebag.

Those type of OCD, neurotic, hyperactive behaviors are NOT due to drive or having "over the top sport dog" drive levels. They are due to nerve weakness. Dogs with pretty extreme levels of drive do not show those behaviors, and are just fine hanging out on the couch with the family in the evening, if the nerves are sound.

Which goes back to my earlier points about why some form of temperament testing through working for titles is important, and the more difficult, varied and stressful the title the more the dog is tested. Fun happy titles don't test nerve. Hanging out at home and going on outings doesn't test nerve. Only putting pressure on the dog truly tests nerve and tells you where the dog's threshold for stress is and how well the dog can cope with it.


----------



## Jax08

martemchik said:


> Lol...I love this advice and I agree 100%...but lets be serious.
> 
> You want people, that have no interest in showing or trialing, to take their weekend, and "waste" it at a training club or a dog event? They don't have a dog to train, and you want them to go watch other people train dogs? Can you seriously tell me you know people that would do that?


First, I don't "want" people to do anything. It's the best advice I can give them. What others do is their own responsibility.

Second, yes I do know people that do that. Me for one. I guess it depends on what you want in a dog. If they don't want sport, or show, dogs then they need to at least meet the parents.

Third, they aren't watching the people train their dogs. They are watching the dogs. If they are watching the people, they are doing it wrong.

Fourth, why exactly are you being snarky? You asked a question and I gave my thoughts on it in a logical, courteous, fashion.


----------



## martemchik

LoveEcho said:


> That's a really good point- it's interesting how that gets lost when a bunch of sport nuts, etc, start arguing among themselves.
> 
> It's hard to answer that question without some sort of bias that comes from being knowledgeable about the breed. We can all argue all day long about what SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be bred, but if we all think back to when we got our first dogs... many of us had absolutely no idea. Once we got more educated we knew what we were looking for and formed opinions based on experiences. I'm not sure there IS a right answer as to how a newbie to the breed is supposed to know- especially considering the shocking lack of common sense we see every day on this board.


Also for Czarina...

Exactly! If the "people that care/know" can't agree...how can those that have no idea?

And you know what...for those of us that didn't know...we supported a BYB, and then we learned, but we still supported a BYB with that one pup. And some of us have stumbled on this forum, or to a dog club, because we had problems with that pup or we didn't, but we still found a way to get "educated." Good for us, we won't make the same mistake again. But for every 1 of the people that got educated, there are 100 that don't. They continue buying BYB dogs because they never have any issues and they see no reason to pay 3 times more for a dog because that breeder has "proven" their temperament.

Sadly, a newbie can't know. They get pushed towards breeders on this forum all the time by people that have never met the breeder, or any of their dogs. They know the breeder from this forum and that's it but still recommend them without an issue.

The answer is to go to training clubs and learn, but this is America (or Canada) and we want what we want now. We're not about to learn about a new sport just to pick out a puppy that will never do that sport. It's "just a pet."


----------



## SunCzarina

my boy diesel said:


> *The dog she's got is a neurotic tail chasing mess that can't settle without Prosac because she's an over the top sport dog.
> __________________*
> 
> sadly sables are the new fad it seems
> and so you have a ton of folks breeding them for the pet community because they look cool
> 
> we could go round and round about titles but bybs will always exist to peddle dogs to people who should not have them and have no idea what they are getting into



I didn't articulate, the prosac dog is a black and red DDR. There's a lot of people breeding questionable DDRs in the northeast. Don't ask me for names in public. 

Luther was (and Otto is) DDR. Since this neighbor lady is friendly with me and Luther used to play with her dog often, we'd talk and she was apparently listening to what I said about the lines. NOT what I said about the hard work and bruises that went into getting Luther and Otto to be socially acceptable. Yeah I do feel somewhat at fault. 

Now I tend to stress WORK at the start of a conversation. When any random person says hey I'd like a dog like that. 'Yeah isn't he handsome? They'll ruin your life if you don't have 2 hours a day to spend working with them.'


----------



## Jax08

martemchik said:


> Also for Czarina...
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly, a newbie can't know. *They get pushed towards breeders on this forum all the time by people that have never met the breeder, or any of their dogs. *They know the breeder from this forum and that's it but still recommend them without an issue.
> 
> The answer is to go to training clubs and learn*, but this is America (or Canada) and we want what we want now. *We're not about to learn about a new sport just to pick out a puppy that will never do that sport. It's "just a pet."


:thumbup::thumbup:

Ain't that the truth!!!


----------



## Jack's Dad

LoveEcho said:


> That's a really good point- it's interesting how that gets lost when a bunch of sport nuts, etc, start arguing among themselves.
> 
> It's hard to answer that question without some sort of bias that comes from being knowledgeable about the breed. We can all argue all day long about what SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be bred, but if we all think back to when we got our first dogs... many of us had absolutely no idea. Once we got more educated we knew what we were looking for and formed opinions based on experiences. I'm not sure there IS a right answer as to how a newbie to the breed is supposed to know- especially considering the shocking lack of common sense we see every day on this board.


And this is where there is a major problem. There is too much of a disconnect between newbies and very experienced dog people.

After a period of time the experienced forget what it's like to have no clue what SchH is or for that matter care.

Martemchik, I did a thread a long time ago on helping new folks with answers that they could relate to. It came up with nothing really. 
Because I agree that telling people to go out and visit venues they know nothing about and don't really care about will not work.

I understand why people give that advice but I don't think it is much help to the person who wants a family companion.


----------



## mspiker03

DaniFani said:


> Edit... Nevermind, not worth it.
> 
> Back on topic, the herding thing has been very interesting to read about. There is a small club near me that does herding. I've thought of checking it out. It'd definitely be something new and completely different to try. I was told something about starting out on ducks? Someone should start a thread just talking about herding. If love to read that.


I think starting on goats (for a GSD) would be better and not work on ducks until the dog has more control. Unless you are talking a puppy and then ducks may work. 


Paisley started on goats (they are not as reactive/prone to flight as sheep) when she was young and will soon move to sheep (she is now a year old).

I really don't want to get involved in this whole thread discussion, but will say that I really don't like when it is insinuated that those of us who train in AKC/AHBA herding have lesser talented dogs than those who do HGH (which is just not possible in most locations). Would I like to do HGH, absolutely. But it just isn't realistic. AKC/AHBA herding is a lot more than chasing three sheep down the side of an arena...






Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> Because I agree that telling people to go out and visit venues they know nothing about and don't really care about will not work.
> 
> I understand why people give that advice but I don't think it is much help to the person who wants a family companion.


Yup you are right. It won't work. Doesn't help anyone so why bother suggesting it. That's why I don't participate in this forum much anymore.

Watering the stones....


----------



## SunCzarina

Chris Wild said:


> No, she shows those behaviors because she is a nervebag.
> 
> Those type of OCD, neurotic, hyperactive behaviors are NOT due to drive or having "over the top sport dog" drive levels. They are due to nerve weakness. Dogs with pretty extreme levels of drive do not show those behaviors, and are just fine hanging out on the couch with the family in the evening, if the nerves are sound.


LOL no offense to your sport dogs Chris. Failure to articulate on my part. She's just a bad match on the breeders part - too much dog to not enough human (although I think this lady's great, she's just the type who was better off with a rally title breeder. Or an american showline GSD) The pedigree looks nice on paper but having not met the parents, I can't say if they were stable dogs who could hang out on the couch after getting their daily needs met.


----------



## DaniFani

mspiker03 said:


> I think starting on goats (for a GSD) would be better and not work on ducks until the dog has more control. Unless you are talking a puppy and then ducks may work.
> 
> 
> Paisley started on goats (they are not as reactive/prone to flight as sheep) when she was young and will soon move to sheep (she is now a year old).
> 
> I really don't want to get involved in this whole thread discussion, but will say that I really don't like when it is insinuated that those of us who train in AKC/AHBA herding have lesser talented dogs than those who do HGH (which is just not possible in most locations). Would I like to do HGH, absolutely. But it just isn't realistic. AKC/AHBA herding is a lot more than chasing three sheep down the side of an arena..
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What about for a corgi? He's who I was initially considering, and the reason ducks came up.


----------



## Merciel

martemchik said:


> You want people, that have no interest in showing or trialing, to take their weekend, and "waste" it at a training club or a dog event? They don't have a dog to train, and you want them to go watch other people train dogs? Can you seriously tell me you know people that would do that?


The other thing is that even if they _do_ go, other than the most obvious cases (like screamers), quite often the time _is_ wasted.

I like to watch Open dogs doing the out-of-sight Stays. I've knocked a few breeders off my list based on how their dogs behaved during those Stays, and not because they did anything dramatic like break the Stay and get in another dog's face. It's just little stuff -- how tense the dog's body posture is, how often it alerts to movements or noises outside the ring, whether it's showing stress signs, etc. These are generally extremely well trained dogs and they hardly ever move a foot, but you can still tell an awful lot about their mental state while they're in that ring.

If I see a dog holding a Stay and it looks as freaked out as Pongu does when he's training for that exercise, then even if that dog never loses half a point or twitches a muscle, I know that's not a dog I want. Been there, done that, never again.

But superficially, I'm just watching a line of dogs sitting still for 3 minutes or lying down for 5 minutes. They're not _doing_ anything. To a regular person (or to Past Me from three or four years ago) I imagine it's about as interesting and informative as watching paint dry.

I _still_ get only very limited information from watching bitework. It happens so quickly and I don't know how to evaluate much of what I'm seeing. I'm trying to learn, but it takes time.

In the meantime, all I can do is rely on the opinions and interpretations of people I trust. And I guess that's all most newbies can do either.


----------



## LoveEcho

Jack's Dad said:


> And this is where there is a major problem. There is too much of a disconnect between newbies and very experienced dog people.
> 
> After a period of time the experienced forget what it's like to have no clue what SchH is or for that matter care.
> 
> Martemchik, I did a thread a long time ago on helping new folks with answers that they could relate to. It came up with nothing really.
> Because I agree that telling people to go out and visit venues they know nothing about and don't really care about will not work.
> 
> I understand why people give that advice but I don't think it is much help to the person who wants a family companion.


I think a lot about where I got Delta from. While his focus is breeding sport dogs and dogs for work in various LE venues, he sells very frequently to active pet homes. He is very involved in getting to know the families, helping the families to get to know his dogs, explaining the work he does with his dogs and why it should matter. He does a lot of family-oriented training, etc. That's the kind of breeder I would tell newbies to the breed to look for- someone involved and transparent. Look for someone who is just as interested in getting to know YOU and whether YOU'LL be a good fit for one of their dogs as whether their dogs will be a good fit for you. Most "prey monkey" IPO 'breeders' that I know aren't interested in that, and most BYB's aren't interested in that. It seems like a good thing to look for to weed out both. 

Meeting the parents often doesn't mean much- most people don't know much about body language, etc- how many times have we heard, "he's so protective!" about a fear aggressive dog? 

But again, this is imagining Utopia.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jax08 said:


> Yup you are right. It won't work. Doesn't help anyone so why bother suggesting it. That's why I don't participate in this forum much anymore.
> 
> Watering the stones....


It wasn't personal Jax. I agree and it is why I don't post much anymore.

If the forum can't address the issue of the vast majority of dog owners (pet people) then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.

It becomes a chat room for the same people to regurgitate information back and forth to each other.


----------



## onyx'girl

martemchik said:


> Lol...I love this advice and I agree 100%...but lets be serious.
> 
> You want people, that have no interest in showing or trialing, to take their weekend, and "waste" it at a training club or a dog event? They don't have a dog to train, and you want them to go watch other people train dogs? Can you seriously tell me you know people that would do that?


If you are into the breed, it wouldn't be a waste of time! I went to club without a dog for quite a few months. My dog I started didn't have what it took, so I washed her....while waiting for a puppy I went and learned more from observing. 
I found out what I didn't want thru that observation.


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> *The dog she's got is a neurotic tail chasing mess that can't settle without Prosac because she's an over the top sport dog.
> __________________*
> 
> sadly sables are the new fad it seems
> and so you have a ton of folks breeding them for the pet community because they look cool
> 
> we could go round and round about titles but bybs will always exist to peddle dogs to people who should not have them and have no idea what they are getting into




I thought the story implied she got a titled dog from a real breeder and got a neurotic mess. Not that she had gone to a byb 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Chris Wild

It is true that there will always be BYBs and always be people who support them. And unfortunately it is true that there will always be people who don't care to put the time and effort into researching their purchases, or who see the point in doing that for their next car or TV but not for a dog.

But there are a lot of people who ARE willing to learn once they know that they are lacking knowledge and are in need of some education. I've known many such people, and sold dogs to more than a few, who started out in their first email or phone call to me not knowing what SchH or OFA or any of that was. But finding the right dog was important to them and they knew that they were ignorant on how to go about doing it, so they asked and were willing to be educated. Someone just had to put the effort into doing the teaching. A couple of those, once they knew that the world of dogs existed and was within reach beyond just watching Westminster on TV, got involved and loved it, and turned out to become some very talented and successful trainers. Some were and still are "just pet" homes but they are great pet homes with great dogs, and now that they know they do their part to educate others.

Even if it's 1 in a 100 that is actually willing to learn, it is the responsibility of those who have the knowedge to share it. Most people don't want to make a bad decision or a bad purchase, they just don't know how to make a good one or in many cases don't know there is even a difference. So rather than throw our hands up and not try because 99 won't get it we need to educate for the benefit of the 1 that will.


----------



## LoveEcho

Jack's Dad said:


> It wasn't personal Jax. I agree and it is why I don't post much anymore.
> 
> If the forum can't address the issue of the vast majority of dog owners (pet people) then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.
> 
> It becomes a chat room for the same people to regurgitate information back and forth to each other.


Then you get into the fact that the vast majority of dog owners aren't invested enough to be on a dog forum... we're all the "crazy dog people" here.... even the "pettest" of "pet people" aren't representative of the dog-owner population.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Before that I was getting my degree in *organismal* biology. Which is zoology, I put an emphasis on animal behavior (actually took classes called "animal behavior"), I also did a lot of genetics. During my degree I had to get animal husbandry experience. 

Careful with the spelling there. Dani


----------



## martemchik

Merciel said:


> In the meantime, all I can do is rely on the opinions and interpretations of people I trust. And I guess that's all most newbies can do either.


We all need to do that, but a newbie, doesn't have anyone to trust. They're not in sport. They're coming onto this website and asking questions BECAUSE they don't have anyone they can look in the face and ask a question to. They sign on this website, see someone with 10000 posts, and believe they're an expert and for some reason "trust" this person since they seem to know what they're talking about.

I had this conversation a little while ago with someone on this forum, they recommended a breeder, that someone else on this forum recommended to them. The person that recommended it to them...they'd never met, they don't know them personally, they just know that that person, "knew more about dogs and breeding that they'd ever know."


----------



## Lilie

onyx'girl said:


> If you are into the breed, it wouldn't be a waste of time! I went to club without a dog for quite a few months. My dog I started didn't have what it took, so I washed her....while waiting for a puppy I went and learned more from observing.
> I found out what I didn't want thru that observation.


I've been to many venues where I've been approached by folks who don't have dogs but were interested in the breed. In fact, so much so, I carry an informational sheet with me with breed specifics and contact information. 

I suppose if someone woke up one morning and decided they were going to buy a dog that weekend, they wouldn't be willing to do any research. But if we are talking about spending $1k plus, I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't mind spending a couple days at events or training sessions.


----------



## Chris Wild

SunCzarina said:


> LOL no offense to your sport dogs Chris.


I don't have sport dogs. I have GSDs who happen to do sport. There's a difference. 

But my main point in posting was that due to the way your post was worded it could come across as the behavioral problems were an issue of drive and this is a very, very common misconception. It's been mentioned a few times earlier in this thread actually, that working line dogs can't be pets because they are so high drive and need constant stimulation and constant work, yada yada. Many people don't understand the difference between drive and nerve and they assume those behaviors are due to drive. It's sort of a pet peeve of mine so I tend to jump when I see something that could be interpreted that way. It is not drive that creates those behaviors, it is weak nerves. I've known some hyperactive dogs that actually had very little true drive, but they sure had a lot of hectic energy due to nerves.


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> It wasn't personal Jax. I agree and it is why I don't post much anymore.
> 
> If the forum can't address the issue of the vast majority of dog owners (pet people) then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.
> 
> It becomes a chat room for the same people to regurgitate information back and forth to each other.


Man, y'all are doom-and-glooming here pretty hard.

glowingtoadfly, who started the thread, has said repeatedly that it's given her a lot of material to think about and consider, and that she's grateful to everyone who shared their expertise.

I learned a lot from phgsd's posts about HGH herding and I'm glad for the time and thought that went into those.

And of course Chris's post about the real importance of titles ought to go onto a copy-paste list to be whipped out whenever this topic comes up in the future, as it inevitably will.

As long as it is, and as many tangents as there were, I think there's been some real value to come out of this thread.


----------



## phgsd

I don't think anyone said that AKC herding dogs aren't talented. Some are, but many aren't, just like any other sport. It just does not test the dogs the way HGH does. A flock of 25 is very different from a large flock. Even a flock of 80 is completely different from a flock of 200+. And many dogs that can handle a small flock will not be strong enough to handle a large one. 

A small flock is very flighty (in comparison to a large one) and requires a steady, calm, and very obedient dog. But not all dogs will be able to turn it on for a large flock. 

I do know that Kessy would be way too much dog for a small flock - even the winter flock of 80-90 was a little light for her. She could handle them of course, but they were pretty nervous. She just exudes power and confidence, and the sheep pick up on that very quickly.
But when the flock was 200+, nice and heavy, she was in her element. I personally prefer a dog like that but I'm sure not everyone does.

We used to hold C-course trials - many of the AKC judges just didn't get the big picture. I was thinking about doing C-course just to get back into herding again, but I can't bring myself to do it. It's just not the same thing.


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> It wasn't personal Jax. I agree and it is why I don't post much anymore.
> 
> If the forum can't address the issue of the vast majority of dog owners (pet people) then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.
> 
> It becomes a chat room for the same people to regurgitate information back and forth to each other.


I didn't take it personally. 

It is a huge pet peeve of mine to say something won't work or something is a waste of time. Why? Why is it a waste? I bet someone has taken that advice. I know I did. I bet there is someone else out there that it helped.

Meet the dogs! That is the best thing a person can do. Here are the red flags...look for these. Meet the dogs! Trials, clubs, events, shows, breeders. Meet the dogs!

I don't care if all you want is a pet rock. Go meet the parents and see the lines you are looking at somehow, somewhere. THAT is solid advice.

And if we, as more experienced people, can't convey that to the new people so they learn from our mistakes then we might as well all just walk away.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Merciel said:


> Man, y'all are doom-and-glooming here pretty hard.
> 
> glowingtoadfly, who started the thread, has said repeatedly that it's given her a lot of material to think about and consider, and that she's grateful to everyone who shared their expertise.
> 
> I learned a lot from phgsd's posts about HGH herding and I'm glad for the time and thought that went into those.
> 
> And of course Chris's post about the real importance of titles ought to go onto a copy-paste list to be whipped out whenever this topic comes up in the future, as it inevitably will.
> 
> As long as it is, and as many tangents as there were, I think there's been some real value to come out of this thread.


Ha ha. Yeah your right Merciel. If you kiss a hundred toads you might find a prince or in my case, hopefully a princess.


----------



## LoveEcho

Merciel said:


> Man, y'all are doom-and-glooming here pretty hard.
> 
> glowingtoadfly, who started the thread, has said repeatedly that it's given her a lot of material to think about and consider, and that she's grateful to everyone who shared their expertise.
> 
> I learned a lot from phgsd's posts about HGH herding and I'm glad for the time and thought that went into those.
> 
> And of course Chris's post about the real importance of titles ought to go onto a copy-paste list to be whipped out whenever this topic comes up in the future, as it inevitably will.
> 
> As long as it is, and as many tangents as there were, I think there's been some real value to come out of this thread.


Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! :thumbup: I wish phgsd would post more...


----------



## SunCzarina

shepherdmom said:


> I thought the story implied she got a titled dog from a real breeder and got a neurotic mess. Not that she had gone to a byb
> 
> http://www.petguide.com/mobile


et et, she went to a hobby breeder. 

Personal irritation issue: all breeders should have a back yard. Actually a couple acres for the pups to romp and learn how to be confident puppies with the safety of their mother, litter and breeder watching over them.

The term BYB has become a giant suction tube for any breeder deemed less than acceptable in someone's mind.


----------



## SunCzarina

Chris Wild said:


> I don't have sport dogs. I have GSDs who happen to do sport. There's a difference.
> 
> But my main point in posting was that due to the way your post was worded it could come across as the behavioral problems were an issue of drive and this is a very, very common misconception. It's been mentioned a few times earlier in this thread actually, that working line dogs can't be pets because they are so high drive and need constant stimulation and constant work, yada yada. Many people don't understand the difference between drive and nerve and they assume those behaviors are due to drive. It's sort of a pet peeve of mine so I tend to jump when I see something that could be interpreted that way. It is not drive that creates those behaviors, it is weak nerves. I've known some hyperactive dogs that actually had very little true drive, but they sure had a lot of hectic energy due to nerves.


I get it. With the right home or even a more active home the prosac girl could shine. She is on the high strung side (I don't like to use nerve bag.) 

Right after Morgan died, my neighbor had to have surgery and was having so many problems with the 2 1/2 year old dog, I offered to take her for a while. She didn't want her to go, wanted her there for moral support. Wouldn't even let me take her for a walk because 'she's too much, she can't heel' Some people are just stubborn. Poor dog runs on a treadmill every day instead of going down the beach and chasing a ball. The beach, it's right there and a grand outlet to work out their body and mind, nope stay at home run that boring treadmill.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> It wasn't personal Jax. I agree and it is why I don't post much anymore.
> 
> If the forum can't address the issue of the vast majority of dog owners (pet people) then I'm not sure what purpose it serves.



That's why I often take the part of the average pet owner. Even though I know a little more, I try to remind people to look at it from average persons point of view because most people here forget that the average pet owner has no idea what an ipo or any of the other random letters mean. Heck I barely do. When I started here I thought a malinois was just a different colored shepherd. 





Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> I didn't take it personally.
> 
> It is a huge pet peeve of mine to say something won't work or something is a waste of time. Why? Why is it a waste? I bet someone has taken that advice. I know I did. I bet there is someone else out there that it helped.
> 
> Meet the dogs! That is the best thing a person can do. Here are the red flags...look for these. Meet the dogs! Trials, clubs, events, shows, breeders. Meet the dogs!
> 
> I don't care if all you want is a pet rock. Go meet the parents and see the lines you are looking at somehow, somewhere. THAT is solid advice.
> 
> And if we, as more experienced people, can't convey that to the new people so they learn from our mistakes then we might as well all just walk away.



But meet the parents see the lines doesn't mean anything if you don't know what you are looking at. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## SunCzarina

Dog's got those AKC papers though. Kidding. My cousin's wife kept seeing my dogs pictures on FB and wanted one. She didn't ASK me any questions, she just found a litter and bought one. Then she said I'll probably BE ASKING you a lot of questions. The puppy is the same age as Venus, always looked like a lab mix to me. My cousin had the stupidity to say to me 'they said she's a german shepherd, she's got AKC papers' Nothing. It means nothing.


----------



## Liesje

You know what I think....people should just focus more on themselves and not worry so much about others. I bred my dog and I'm super glad I did  So is the breeder who supplied the bitch half of the equation and the people (including myself and two local friends) who got puppies. I've trained/raised puppies for other people and also fostered puppies for rescue and I've never been SO attached to a puppy, and not because I know he's by my male, but I just plain like him. I don't really care what anyone in this thread thinks about it either. He's had one litter and will not sire another until these puppies are old enough for me to feel comfortable about their health and temperament. It's likely he'll never sire another litter again as we are so far very happy with the result and he was bred to get the type of dogs we like to train, not to keep making puppies and making money. My minimum standards for considering my own dog for breeding were breed survey (Schutzhund title, AD, BH, show card, OFA hips and elbows), DM test, thyroid panel, and a reproductive assessment (sperm count, motility, brucellosis test, etc). I know a lot of people with a lot of really nice dogs, some dogs or puppies I'd take in a heartbeat, that have different minimum standards for their breeding. They might do "less" with their dogs but not like my dog or a dog from his breeding. I might actually like one of those puppies "more" even with "less" done with the parents. Who cares? Just figure out what's important to you and support those types of breeders when you buy a puppy.

Also, just re-read what Chris wrote many pages back. Enough said.


----------



## Blanketback

Chris Wild said:


> But there are a lot of people who ARE willing to learn once they know that they are lacking knowledge and are in need of some education.
> Even if it's 1 in a 100 that is actually willing to learn, it is the responsibility of those who have the knowedge to share it.


And I thank you for having this attitude, and for taking your time to post on these threads - and many thanks are also due to the others who do the same. I've learned alot here in the past 2 years, because of all of you: the ones with the knowledge and experience who are are willing to teach us. It's certainly appreciated! 

Otherwise, if I didn't try to soak up as much as I can here, I'd still be wondering what's wrong with BYB since mine (BYB or unknown heritage) GSDs were all perfect - and that's said from someone who doesn't know any better, who doesn't know what they 'should' be, just someone who hasn't had to deal with any genetic health issues or nerves that can't be worked with.


----------



## Jax08

shepherdmom said:


> But meet the parents see the lines doesn't mean anything if you don't know what you are looking at.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I thought this line, underlined and in bold, was self explanatory. Sorry that it was not. 




Jax08 said:


> ....
> 
> Meet the dogs! That is the best thing a person can do. *Here are the red flags...look for these.* Meet the dogs! Trials, clubs, events, shows, breeders. Meet the dogs!
> 
> I don't care if all you want is a pet rock. Go meet the parents and see the lines you are looking at somehow, somewhere. THAT is solid advice.
> 
> And if we, as more experienced people, can't convey that to the new people so they learn from our mistakes then we might as well all just walk away.


We list the red flags, we tell them to meet the dogs. Other than holding their hand while they meet the breeder not much else we can do.

So I'll continue to give this advice and a person can take it or leave. I'm not going to continue arguing about the advice I give. If you have better advice for them then give it.


----------



## mspiker03

phgsd said:


> I don't think anyone said that AKC herding dogs aren't talented. Some are, but many aren't, just like any other sport. It just does not test the dogs the way HGH does. A flock of 25 is very different from a large flock. Even a flock of 80 is completely different from a flock of 200+. And many dogs that can handle a small flock will not be strong enough to handle a large one.
> 
> A small flock is very flighty (in comparison to a large one) and requires a steady, calm, and very obedient dog. But not all dogs will be able to turn it on for a large flock.
> 
> I do know that Kessy would be way too much dog for a small flock - even the winter flock of 80-90 was a little light for her. She could handle them of course, but they were pretty nervous. She just exudes power and confidence, and the sheep pick up on that very quickly.
> But when the flock was 200+, nice and heavy, she was in her element. I personally prefer a dog like that but I'm sure not everyone does.
> 
> We used to hold C-course trials - many of the AKC judges just didn't get the big picture. I was thinking about doing C-course just to get back into herding again, but I can't bring myself to do it. It's just not the same thing.



My comment was more general on not necessarily towards you. I have so often seen on this forum that AKC etc herding isn't as good as HGH and that it doesn't prove anything (as in the comment about chasing 3 sheep isn't a true test). I would happily like to prove to these people that these dogs could do more if they had the opportunity to do so - and if anyone wants to donate a few hundred sheep and some land to the cause I would love to work them (and I have no doubt Paisley would be in her element)!! It just feels like people are constantly diminishing the type of work that these dogs do in a smaller venue. And for me, I would much rather satisfy my dogs herding instinct on a smaller scale (even if that means she has to learn some control) than to not be involved at all.

And as for a corgi - I am not sure. I have never trained a corgi before. I am pretty sure where I trained in San Diego they started all breeds on sheep (they didn't have ducks all the time). The place I am at now has all stock. My guess is they would start the dogs on ducks if there was any sort of a fear issue with the larger sheep. My trainer did say when we instinct tested Paisley on goats (she was young and prone to fear periods) that she may try her out on ducks if she was intimidated by them (not those exact words, but that was the gist of it). 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## DaniFani

Jack's Dad said:


> Before that I was getting my degree in *organismal* biology. Which is zoology, I put an emphasis on animal behavior (actually took classes called "animal behavior"), I also did a lot of genetics. During my degree I had to get animal husbandry experience.
> 
> Careful with the spelling there. Dani


Bahahaha I can't tell you how many times my mother has told people her daughter has a degree in "orgazmal biology" lol! I told her to just say zoology. Before I transferred to the University I graduated from, the title was "biomedical science"... My mom always spoke that one wrong too lol.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> I thought this line, underlined and in bold, was self explanatory. Sorry that it was not.
> 
> We list the red flags, we tell them to meet the dogs. Other than holding their hand while they meet the breeder not much else we can do.
> 
> So I'll continue to give this advice and a person can take it or leave. I'm not going to continue arguing about the advice I give. If you have better advice for them then give it.


Jax we can't even agree on the red flags around here. I've seen some people say breeder must pick puppy and others say would never get a puppy unless they can pick themselves. Look at this thread. I don't see any kind of consensus on which titles to have. I've seen endless threads on when puppies should have their first shots. It goes on and on. An average pet owner is going to go running for the hills. 

I don't have any better advice than anyone else around here. My only suggestion is we be nicer to the newbies and nicer to each other so that when we do disagree we don't scare people away.


----------



## Rei

Liesje said:


> You know what I think....*people should just focus more on themselves and not worry so much about others.* I bred my dog and I'm super glad I did  So is the breeder who supplied the bitch half of the equation and the people (including myself and two local friends) who got puppies. I've trained/raised puppies for other people and also fostered puppies for rescue and I've never been SO attached to a puppy, and not because I know he's by my male, but I just plain like him. I don't really care what anyone in this thread thinks about it either. He's had one litter and will not sire another until these puppies are old enough for me to feel comfortable about their health and temperament. It's likely he'll never sire another litter again as we are so far very happy with the result and he was bred to get the type of dogs we like to train, not to keep making puppies and making money. My minimum standards for considering my own dog for breeding were breed survey (Schutzhund title, AD, BH, show card, OFA hips and elbows), DM test, thyroid panel, and a reproductive assessment (sperm count, motility, brucellosis test, etc). _ I know a lot of people with a lot of really nice dogs, some dogs or puppies I'd take in a heartbeat, that have different minimum standards for their breeding. They might do "less" with their dogs but not like my dog or a dog from his breeding. I might actually like one of those puppies "more" even with "less" done with the parents._* Who cares? Just figure out what's important to you and support those types of breeders when you buy a puppy.*
> 
> Also, just re-read what Chris wrote many pages back. Enough said.


Completely agree, particularly on the points emphasized. 

There are breeders I would buy from in a heart beat, and breeders I never see myself getting a dog from in a lifetime. But some of the breeders I'd personally choose are not breeders I'd recommend easily to others, and among the breeders I'd never buy from, several of them are people I would happily recommend to others (from having known them personally or their dogs). 

Nevermind what's "reputable" and what's a "BYB". I know what I'd support and that's what I'll continue to do, but the breeders that others pick really won't make a difference to me, nor does it have the impact on the breed that people seem to say it does. I'll offer my experience/input if it's a matter of the ethics of the breeder himself/herself, but otherwise if you know what you want and where to find it, I don't think it's wrong to go with it. Now, I don't think this means that people should go about with these misconceptions that a certification like the CGC is an intensive breed test... but that's really more a matter of understanding what it is that makes up the dog that they really want, and part of being able to find what they're looking for. If what someone wants is a stable companion dog, the CGC isn't going to be what really reveals the strengths and weaknesses in the dog and tested its capabilities. 



DaniFani said:


> Bahahaha I can't tell you how many times my mother has told people her daughter has a degree in "orgazmal biology" lol!


 Now there's something to brag about!!!







:rofl:


----------



## Andaka

I have ASL dogs -- mine go to AKC shows. But I also do obedience, agility, herding, rally, whatever I am in the mood for. I love herding -- Keno was good at it. He would nose lambs to get them going, and protect me from the ewes that didn't like me near the babies. He would back up off the ducks if we got them stuck in a corner. I could tell Keno "that one" when we were sorting the sheep. 

I think that Jag would be good at herding, but health issues prevent me from trying.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Ultimately this thread has taught me that the shepherd is doomed to continue the split between working, show and byb. Nothing will change that, buyers (many on here) will continue to buy from breeders breeding low quality dogs because they see SAR, Rally, CGC, nice pigment or whatever and will tell themselves that they have a real working dog. 

The dogs will in the main be lower drive and weak tempered, excuses will be made and the cycle will continue. Stories about how "my dog is so powerful, confident and versatile" will continued to be told with little proof provided.

In the end the people that want the real deal will go out and get it and the vast majority that dont care or dont know will be happy with what they have. The reality is many cannot properly handle a real GSD anymore. What with the silly fads in dog training and all the mis information spread about by pet breeders, "behaviorists", kennel clubs, show people, dog trainers and pet owners its not surprising.

Such is life, ultimately as long as I can find what Im looking for its all good. This thread was a waste of time.


----------



## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ultimately this thread has taught me that the shepherd is doomed to continue the split between working, show and byb. Nothing will change that, buyers (many on here) will continue to buy from breeders breeding low quality dogs *because they see SAR, *Rally, CGC, nice pigment or whatever and will tell themselves that they have a real working dog.
> 
> .


You don't see SAR as real work? Why is that?


----------



## cliffson1

WOW!....I read all 46 pages...lol.... Great post Chris and PhGSD from a very informed perspective. There are a lot of opinions expressed about things, like expert opinions on breeding from people who have never bred, or the value of titles from those that have never titled a dog, or experts on police dogs from people who have neither handled or trained a police dog, or experts on herding traits and never seen a dog herd in trial or for real, and experts on temperaments and have never worked a dog, and experts on what breed should be and don't know the accurate history of the breed, and experts on whole lines of dogs yet have never worked, bred, or owned more than 5 of them out of thousands and thousands in existence......now I am not saying any of these opinions aren't heartfelt, but is it possible that many of them are not as informed as they are passionate?
Anyway, there were many great informative opinions based on in depth experience also.....my question is how is the newbie able to separate the wheat from the chaff?


----------



## Blanketback

That's the million dollar question, lol! It's easier in real life, when you're speaking to people about the breed. I've had an old time breeder tell me that he got out of it because, "he hated what the breed had become." Meanwhile, telling me that my pup is awesome...my pup's all SL...what was that about? Or the person who's been involved in the breed for decades, telling me the only salvation for the breed is to mix in wolf blood to escape the health issues. Uhh...right. It's a tough call to separate the wheat from the chaff, that's for sure.


----------



## SunCzarina

cliffson1 said:


> my question is how is the newbie able to separate the wheat from the chaff?


Cliff as always, spot on. I don't think someone new to the breed would back out of the room slowly thinking we're all completely insane - dog snobs.


----------



## Lilie

Just out of curiosity, I went to the AKC website to see their definition of a 'Working Dog'. 

AKC Working Dogs - Pictures and Breed Information

I don't even see German Shepherd there.


----------



## Blanketback

GSDs are in their herding group, that's why: "However, always be aware that a herding dog has been bred to be a work dog, and therefore should be kept active at all times." - from the herding page.


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> This is very true...but the point is kind of that a dog out of IPO3 parents, will probably (high likelihood) will be able to do IPO and also many of the other things you have listed because *gasp* IPO is a much more demanding sport and is much more difficult so it proves a lot more about the dog and its nerves. A dog out of two RAE parents, with a CGC and HIC thrown on top of it, while likely to be able to do rally, might not be able to do IPO, or even agility or AKC obedience (there's a reason people have RAEx10 instead of going on to get a CD).


Having a CD on a couple of dogs and no RAEs, I think I can comment on this. I think people put way too much oomph on the CD. The CD is NOT that hard to achieve. There are two possible reasons why people are getting RAEx10 with their dogs instead of going for a CD: One reason is that they are afraid of obedience and the obedience people freak them out. The other is that Rally is FUN and that is what they like doing with their dog. 

Your RAE dog with a CGC could definitely get a CD. Piece of cake. The CD requires the following:

1. Heel on lead: RN dogs could probably pass this section even though the heeling is more relaxed in Rally. The dog might not go High in Trial, but they would pass the 50% of the points for the heeling section, if they can heel well enough to pass an RN.

2. Heel free: RA level dogs can certainly pass the Heel Free points needed to gain their CD. The pattern is the same as the heel on lead pattern where the judge tells you to move forward, go fast, go normal, turn left, go slow, go normal, about turn, right turn and a few halts (dog sits). 

3. Stand for Exam. People with a nervous dog or dangerous dog might worry about this one, but if a dog can pass the CGC where the friendly stranger looks at ears, picks up each front paw, pets the head, and brushes the back, as well as supervised separation, they can manage this task. It isn't hard and goes really quickly. The stand is a rally task, so the dog knows how to stand and stay while the owner walks around him. Not hard. The dog can easily be trained to stand while the handler moves six feet away. The tough part is having the judge come from the side and touch the head, back and butt. The judge moves away and tells you to return to your dog. You return around the dog and halt at the shoulder and wait for the judge to say exercise complete. Not hard. It can be a challenge for some dogs, but if you can do the CGC, then you can do this.

4. Figure 8: this is done on lead. For the CD, people are the posts -- not dogs. We often train by walking around people and dogs, it is a piece of cake when you get in the ring, and the posts are a couple of benign stewards that aren't looking to freak your dog out. In the RN it is like the serpentine. In the CGC it is like milling through a crowd. There is NO reason a dog that can pass both of those, cannot pass this test. 

5. Recall. The dog must stay while you walk across the ring, Turn around, wait for the judge to signal for you to call your dog. The dog runs to your front, sits, and then you tell the dog to return either left or right -- and even if the dog doesn't return, properly you will probably get enough points to pass this test. If you give them the Around signal, and the dog does the Finish -- doesn't matter. You are not tested for the type of finish. A dog that can manage the stay and recall on a CGC can do this. 

6. 1 minute sit stay. Sit your dog in a line of dogs, walk across the ring, and wait 1 minute until you are given the command to return to your dog. No RN sign is like this. But for RE, the dog used to, not sure if they still do, have to Sit or Down the entire time the next dog ran through the course -- usually about 2 minutes. If a dog can do an RE, they should be able to do this. It really isn't hard to train. But, if the dog breaks their stay, you do not title today. That sucks. But it really isn't that hard to get a dog to do this. 

7. 3 minute down stay. Again, we do this in training class all the time. It isn't hard. It may trip up a dog that is really dog aggressive. But owners are right there, and it certainly isn't that hard to train. 

Now the RAE is a title that makes money for the AKC. If you have one dog, and Rally is fun, and you like ribbons, than continuing to go to Rally trials with a dog, and paying 50-60 bucks per trial to enter in both Rally Advanced B and Rally Excellent B, more power to you. It doesn't prove anything more than your pocketbook is bottomless. An RAE means you qualified in RA and RE on the same day/trial day 10 times. So if you have RAEx10 that means you did it 100 times. 

To be fair, the CD is pretty much the same every single time, and the RA and RE will use a variety of maps and signs each time. But, it is not like, if you NQ today, you have to go all the way back to the start of your trialing. It just means you do not get your RAE leg today. 

I wish people weren't so afraid of the CD. Alone, it isn't much of a test. It really doesn't test the temperament of a dog, and an obedient dog with borderline nerves can be conditioned to pass it without really all that much trouble. 

A CD with a RN or CGC actually tells you more. Rally has its own challenges for dogs. If you can heel then your dog should pass. But you have to train the dog to let you go around it, to sit, down, stand. Some dogs do not like the number of sits or downs. Some do not like the moving down, or backing up, or the different finishes, sitting all the way down one the come fronts, or sits. In obedience training, Rally is like Doodling. 

Rally is more relaxed on the rules, and that just encourages sloppyness, and points are docked because of it. Repeated commands are allowed in rally and praising the dog, (but not touching) throughout the performance is encouraged. But if you go through the rally course using proper training -- without repeating commands, and expecting follow through, no air-cookie (I think that isn't allowed anymore anyway) you will get a much better performance anyway.

So the requirements of the obedience ring actually encourage a better performance, and easier time in the ring, an easier time in training. But whatever. 

You can be really sloppy and get through your RN. That certainly does not mean the dog is breedworthy. I think though that someone who has trained a variety of the venues, can gage a dog's performance through training and the Rally trial, and know that this dog will have no problem getting a CD. The process will give you information about your dog. 

Of course, if you want a dog for IPO, than go to someone who trains in IPO. If you want a horse that will be able to run in the Kentucky Derby, there isn't much point in looking for a colt at a breeder of quarter horses. If I wanted a dog to herd sheep or cows with, I wouldn't just pick one from any schutzhund titled pair. The chances are that the dog would have what it takes, but I would go to a breeder who herds. Then, when I am working with the puppy, I can call the breeder and ask questions. 

If you want a dog to trial in Rally or Obedience, you can go to any of the lines, and if the breeder is trialing in schutzhund that might be the breeder for you. If the breeder is trialing in Rally or Obedience, then there is no reason you shouldn't be able to do the same. I took a dog through whose owners didn't trial in anything. It really isn't rocket science.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jax08 said:


> You don't see SAR as real work? Why is that?


SAR can mean a lot of different things, unless I know the dog itself SAR means nothing to me. jmo


----------



## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> SAR can mean a lot of different things, unless I know the dog itself SAR means nothing to me. jmo


Agreed. There are many ppl out there claiming SAR but are not working SAR.

However a true working SAR dog has to have good nerve and good hunt drive. Can't make it without it. Your comment implies that SAR is not a worthwhile working endeavor.


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> Having a CD on a couple of dogs and no RAEs, I think I can comment on this. I think people put way too much oomph on the CD. The CD is NOT that hard to achieve. There are two possible reasons why people are getting RAEx10 with their dogs instead of going for a CD: One reason is that they are afraid of obedience and the obedience people freak them out. The other is that Rally is FUN and that is what they like doing with their dog.


Thank you for that explanation of what a CD is. My dog has one. And no, sorry, I don't agree if a dog has an RAE and a CGC, it can easily get a CD. There are tons of dogs that can not heel without being told it over and over again, and the reason the "honor" sign was taken out of the RE is because too many dogs couldn't handle staying.

If you're afraid of the people you'd be showing with, you have no reason to be trying to prove that your dog has the nerve to be bred because YOU don't have the nerve to be in a show and should probably not be involved in breeding dogs. Yes, rally is fun, but no where in proving the wroth of your dog is fun a prerequisite.


----------



## Merciel

cliffson1 said:


> my question is how is the newbie able to separate the wheat from the chaff?


Well, this thread has been a little more aggressive than most in people being called to account for their credentials. I guess that's one way to go about it. 

But it's an abrasive and frequently unproductive way, and I find myself hoping it doesn't become the standard. Better, IMO, for the informed opinions to be highlighted as such. And, happily, that method is also in evidence in this thread.


----------



## GrammaD

UKC still has an honor dog.

I don't think the CD is all that difficult in terms of content, but it is much more difficult for a dog with poor nerves because you can't reassure the dog and the group sits and downs are going to pressure a reactive dog. Despite Huxley having very good attention to my face when working I won't try for a CD with him because all it takes is one sideways glance from him to catch a glance from another dog - and then it is all over but the screaming. 

We "lucked out" trying to get his BN and the judge approached him on the sit for exam like she was being walked to the stake - he reacted. 

But hey, he has his CGC and 2 legs of his RN (95 - knocked over a sign wagging his tail and a couple of tight leads - and 97 - he told me, loudly, at 3 different signs that he really really would prefer to go home now) so perhaps I should not have had him neutered


----------



## lhczth

Re: SAR as a breed test. IMO, based on the experiences of long time SAR handlers, is not enough of a test. USAR on the other hand is a very tough test. No, the dogs don't have to do protection work but hunt, nerve, drive, structural soundness, obedience and fighting drive are well tested (far more than in IPO).


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jax08 said:


> Agreed. There are many ppl out there claiming SAR but are not working SAR.
> 
> However a true working SAR dog has to have good nerve and good hunt drive. Can't make it without it. Your comment implies that SAR is not a worthwhile working endeavor.


 
Take from my comments what you like.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Blitzkrieg I am inclined to completely ignore your comments going further. You are either incredibly misinformed or incredibly stubborn but there is not a single thing you learned from this thread and the other one you started.

So tell us about your credentials, what makes you so knowledgeable that you can say with confidence that a dog that can't do bitework is pet quality and nothing more. Where does that come from? Experience? Experience in what? What titles have you achieved, and what makes you such an expert? 

It's time to put your money where your mouth (or keyboard) is, otherwise I am convinced you are just spewing off things you've heard your TD and/or people online say and must warn people running through this thread about the misinformation you spread.

As per titles making a dog breedworthy, I like to let the experts be experts and I can focus on being a buyer. I can focus on what I am looking for in a dog and find breeders who have similar goals but I have not the insight or experience to say that titles XYZ mean anything. If they did, my dog would be bred no? he's got the titles, and his hips are fine. But then I remember Cliff's thread about iceberg breeders and how there is just sooo much more hidden behind the surface that we as buyers are simply not knowledgeable enough to comprehend. Using my dog as an example again, half his genetics is unknown pet lines. Not a single reputable breeder would use him but he's got the titles so what does that mean? I try not to bring my dog into the conversation but he's the perfect example IMO of a dog that shows all the qualities *I* might look for (although realistically he's got plenty of faults that I could not forgive in a sire/dam to a puppy I would buy) and yet that's just the tip of the iceberg. we don't know what lies underneath. But I know some people who have a better chance of figuring that out than myself so I leave the breeding decisions to the experts and will choose as a buyer what is important to me in a dog when I am financially stable enough to add a second dog.


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> Thank you for that explanation of what a CD is. My dog has one. And no, sorry, I don't agree if a dog has an RAE and a CGC, it can easily get a CD. There are tons of dogs that can not heel without being told it over and over again, and the reason the "honor" sign was taken out of the RE is because too many dogs couldn't handle staying.
> 
> If you're afraid of the people you'd be showing with, you have no reason to be trying to prove that your dog has the nerve to be bred because YOU don't have the nerve to be in a show and should probably not be involved in breeding dogs. Yes, rally is fun, but no where in proving the wroth of your dog is fun a prerequisite.


I really don't know any breeders who are busy putting RAEs on dogs. An RAE tells you no more than an RE. Breeders have better things to do, and really do not like to pump money at the AKC for meaningless titles. 

The RAE is for people who want to go and have fun with their dog, I really don't think people are using that as a breeding criteria.


----------



## Merciel

selzer said:


> An RAE tells you no more than an RE.
> 
> The RAE is for people who want to go and have fun with their dog, I really don't think people are using that as a breeding criteria.


I agree with the second part (at least I would _hope_ nobody is using an RAE, on its own, as a breeding credential), but I have to disagree with the first part.

The RAE does tell you a little more than the RE. Not a lot, but a little.

It's the same reason (just to a much, _much_ lesser extent) that a UDX tells you more than a UD, or an ARCHMX tells you more than an RL3.

A dog must have more mental and physical stamina to Q in multiple runs per day. It isn't very difficult to earn a Q in RA and RE, and your scores don't matter as long as you Q, so the total difficulty is not all that substantial, but it's still more than an RE.


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> I really don't know any breeders who are busy putting RAEs on dogs. An RAE tells you no more than an RE. Breeders have better things to do, and really do not like to pump money at the AKC for meaningless titles.
> 
> The RAE is for people who want to go and have fun with their dog, I really don't think people are using that as a breeding criteria.


So was the whole point of that half page post to just say that out of the 9 dogs on your signature, you could EASILY get a CD but just chose not to because the people in the obedience ring scare you? And now you're admitting that it had nothing to do with the current thread and the over arching point of this discussion?

Yes...rally titles are not a good test. Neither is a CD IMO, but a CD is WAY harder than a rally title.


----------



## Lilie

ayoitzrimz said:


> Blitzkrieg I am inclined to completely ignore your comments going further. You are either incredibly misinformed or incredibly stubborn but there is not a single thing you learned from this thread and the other one you started.
> 
> So tell us about your credentials, what makes you so knowledgeable that you can say with confidence that a dog that can't do bitework is pet quality and nothing more. Where does that come from? Experience? Experience in what? What titles have you achieved, and what makes you such an expert?
> 
> It's time to put your money where your mouth (or keyboard) is, otherwise I am convinced you are just spewing off things you've heard your TD and/or people online say and must warn people running through this thread about the misinformation you spread.
> 
> As per titles making a dog breedworthy, I like to let the experts be experts and I can focus on being a buyer. I can focus on what I am looking for in a dog and find breeders who have similar goals but I have not the insight or experience to say that titles XYZ mean anything. If they did, my dog would be bred no? he's got the titles, and his hips are fine. But then I remember Cliff's thread about iceberg breeders and how there is just sooo much more hidden behind the surface that we as buyers are simply not knowledgeable enough to comprehend. Using my dog as an example again, half his genetics is unknown pet lines. Not a single reputable breeder would use him but he's got the titles so what does that mean? I try not to bring my dog into the conversation but he's the perfect example IMO of a dog that shows all the qualities *I* might look for (although realistically he's got plenty of faults that I could not forgive in a sire/dam to a puppy I would buy) and yet that's just the tip of the iceberg. we don't know what lies underneath. But I know some people who have a better chance of figuring that out than myself so I leave the breeding decisions to the experts and will choose as a buyer what is important to me in a dog when I am financially stable enough to add a second dog.


 
This ^^ is a fantastic post!


----------



## Liesje

Having done Rally myself, when I see RAE, especially multiples, my assumption is that the dog and handler really enjoy it. That's their venue. I feel the same when I see someone earn a MACH5, complete their 10th SchH3, or earn their Top Flight Expert (flyball plaque). It doesn't make any statements to me if I was considering that dog for breeding or considering buying a puppy out of that dog. It tells me the dog had enough training to pass/Q the beginning level of that venue and then enjoyed it enough to keep on going. Perhaps the handler is competing for a top breed spot in that venue or qualify for a large event, thus continuing to get Qs/points. Good for them! I applaud anyone who commits to training and enjoys continually exhibiting their dogs. I like to see that because *I* like to do that myself, but it doesn't really influence a breeding decision.


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> So was the whole point of that half page post to just say that out of the 9 dogs on your signature, you could EASILY get a CD but just chose not to because the people in the obedience ring scare you? And now you're admitting that it had nothing to do with the current thread and the over arching point of this discussion?
> 
> Yes...rally titles are not a good test. Neither is a CD IMO, but a CD is WAY harder than a rally title.


Where did I EVER say that obedience or obedience people scare me? They don't not at all. 

I suggested that people might be going for RAEx10 -- your post because they may feel intimidated by obedience or scared of the people, OR, because it is fun for them. I find some of the people rather hard to take, I could tell you stories. But I am not afraid of them. LOL. Other people want to have fun with their dogs, and why would they want to do that stiff stuff with people who look all crabby?


----------



## Jack's Dad

Lilie said:


> This ^^ is a fantastic post!


Yes it is.

Blitz. What exactly is the ideal GSD? One that goes for the throat and will fight to the death? 

I have one dog from adlerstein and one from True Haus. They are working dogs in a pet home. They have done a little agility for fun. Otherwise it is walks, hiking, fetch. 

They both settle well and if they go without exercise for awhile they are just fine. I'm older than the hills and my wife is all of four foot ten inches and neither one of us has an issue handling them.

So are they not the real deal? 

If you think not I suggest you talk to their breeders and tell them so.

I would really love to hear you tell adlerstein about what a real GSD is.


----------



## Chris Wild

Jack's Dad said:


> I would really love to here you tell adlerstein about what a real GSD is.


Oh to be a fly on the wall for that conversation! :wild:


----------



## Liesje

Would it really be a "conversation"....lol


----------



## selzer

Merciel said:


> I agree with the second part (at least I would _hope_ nobody is using an RAE, on its own, as a breeding credential), but I have to disagree with the first part.
> 
> The RAE does tell you a little more than the RE. Not a lot, but a little.
> 
> It's the same reason (just to a much, _much_ lesser extent) that a UDX tells you more than a UD, or an ARCHMX tells you more than an RL3.
> 
> A dog must have more mental and physical stamina to Q in multiple runs per day. It isn't very difficult to earn a Q in RA and RE, and your scores don't matter as long as you Q, so the total difficulty is not all that substantial, but it's still more than an RE.


Maybe so, but we have multiple trials (2 anyway in the same day) here. so, if your dog can get first place on her last leg of the RA, move up and get first place on her first leg of her RE on the same day, that pretty much tells you that they can do this, piece of cake. 

I suppose by the 10th trial, your dog may be ring savvy. I didn't think of that. 

But it is 2 minutes in the ring. In training we do a course a couple of times, then switch the course and do more, and that is after practicing signs and obedience, and then we will do long sits and downs. So going to the trial really isn't any more work than going to class. 

I've NQ'd a couple of times with all the dogs that I have run in Rally, but all but one of them were because I did something stupid like missing a sign, or dropping the leash -- yeah I dropped it twice and got NQd. Ah well. 

If you have a dog that is challenged being in a public place or doing something new or whatever, I can see maybe an RAE telling you more, but it is not like the difference between a CD and a CDX.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

ayoitzrimz said:


> Blitzkrieg I am inclined to completely ignore your comments going further. You are either incredibly misinformed or incredibly stubborn but there is not a single thing you learned from this thread and the other one you started.
> 
> So tell us about your credentials, what makes you so knowledgeable that you can say with confidence that a dog that can't do bitework is pet quality and nothing more. Where does that come from? Experience? Experience in what? What titles have you achieved, and what makes you such an expert?
> 
> It's time to put your money where your mouth (or keyboard) is, otherwise I am convinced you are just spewing off things you've heard your TD and/or people online say and must warn people running through this thread about the misinformation you spread.
> 
> As per titles making a dog breedworthy, I like to let the experts be experts and I can focus on being a buyer. I can focus on what I am looking for in a dog and find breeders who have similar goals but I have not the insight or experience to say that titles XYZ mean anything. If they did, my dog would be bred no? he's got the titles, and his hips are fine. But then I remember Cliff's thread about iceberg breeders and how there is just sooo much more hidden behind the surface that we as buyers are simply not knowledgeable enough to comprehend. Using my dog as an example again, half his genetics is unknown pet lines. Not a single reputable breeder would use him but he's got the titles so what does that mean? I try not to bring my dog into the conversation but he's the perfect example IMO of a dog that shows all the qualities *I* might look for (although realistically he's got plenty of faults that I could not forgive in a sire/dam to a puppy I would buy) and yet that's just the tip of the iceberg. we don't know what lies underneath. But I know some people who have a better chance of figuring that out than myself so I leave the breeding decisions to the experts and will choose as a buyer what is important to me in a dog when I am financially stable enough to add a second dog.


 

Oooh Iv been called out, how exciting! 

What should I learn from this thread?

That SAR is a great test for breeding stock? That the CGC is impressive or that Rally is cool? Maybe chasing sheep around a pen is impressive too? (I have owned, lived with and slaughtered sheep since I was a boy, since Im sure you will question that). I dont know about 100+ sheep never had or worked with that many.

As for my guard dog thread what would I learn from that
That many think the dogs needed training or were not that bad??? 

Or are you talking about The prey Drive thread? I did not realize I had to fall into line and agree with all the powers that be on here about that. 

See the thing about me is I like to see dogs and watch them work then decide if I think the dog is good or not. I dont take it as gospel because some forum god said it is so.


Like I said pick the dogs you like and be happy, they are all Breed Quality thats what I learned from this thread.


As to my personal experience summary:

K9 Security work with various dogs
Private training
IPO, current dog is too young to title you can bash me if its not done by 2015
Rescue and Therapy stuff (Dont consider that real experience just fun)


Never claimed to be an expert, most of the comments I make are in relation to basic stuff like I dunno..is a CGC a good determination of breed quality, or should prongs be banned?..

I leave the advanced training questions (very few of those on here) to people who know better.


By all means ignore my comments Ill sleep like a baby tonight regardless and so will my dog.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> Blitz. What exactly is the ideal GSD? One that goes for the throat and will fight to the death?
> 
> I have one dog from adlerstein and one from True Haus. They are working dogs in a pet home. They have done a little agility for fun. Otherwise it is walks, hiking, fetch.
> 
> They both settle well and if they go without exercise for awhile they are just fine. I'm older than the hills and my wife is all of four foot ten inches and neither one of us has an issue handling them.
> 
> So are they not the real deal?
> 
> If you think not I suggest you talk to their breeders and tell them so.
> 
> I would really love to hear you tell adlerstein about what a real GSD is.


Did she produce Buzz? If so ill run that dog off the field and then talk to her. If not I dont think I called her out ever?

Would I go to her for a top sport dog or a PPD? Nope.


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> So was the whole point of that half page post to just say that out of the 9 dogs on your signature, you could EASILY get a CD but just chose not to because the people in the obedience ring scare you? And now you're admitting that it had nothing to do with the current thread and the over arching point of this discussion?
> *
> Yes...rally titles are not a good test. Neither is a CD IMO, but a CD is WAY harder than a rally title.*


If you thought so, really, than maybe you have a problem with your dog or your training.


----------



## gsdsar

lhczth said:


> Re: SAR as a breed test. IMO, based on the experiences of long time SAR handlers, is not enough of a test. USAR on the other hand is a very tough test. No, the dogs don't have to do protection work but hunt, nerve, drive, structural soundness, obedience and fighting drive are well tested (far more than in IPO).



As someone who had done both Wilderness and USAR. I agree. There is too much leeway and lack of "standardization" in wilderness teams for me to say universally that being a wilderness SAR dog makes it breed worthy. But USAR. Whole different ball of wax. I have seen amazing dogs, unable to do USAR. 

Anyone, with a modicum of experience n training for this venue will attest that it is a worthy breed test. Again, like SchH titles, it's not the end all. Shepherds that excel at this type if work are extraordinary. They show an enormous amount if work ethic, drive(hunt, prey, fight), sociability, pack drive. But you learn an enormous about the dog in the training. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Dainerra

shepherdmom said:


> That's why I often take the part of the average pet owner. Even though I know a little more, I try to remind people to look at it from average persons point of view because most people here forget that the average pet owner has no idea what an ipo or any of the other random letters mean. Heck I barely do. When I started here I thought a malinois was just a different colored shepherd.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


not sure this viewpoint would help. the more time I spend talking with the average person, the more I believe they shouldn't be allowed to own a goldfish.
In today's world of cars, technology and internet I really don't know why people wouldn't find these things out. Why they don't find out in the beginning of their search.

Then I see posts like this recent one "Our new lab puppy is coming home next week. What can you tell me about the breed"


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> If you thought so, really, than maybe you have a problem with your dog or your training.


Out of your 9 dogs you only have ONE with a CD. Don't bring up the SchH1 because we all know you didn't do that yourself. Don't call people out on their ability to get titles when you don't have any either. My FIRST dog EVER has more titles than anything you have currently done with your dogs and you're BREEDING them.

I also noticed you have only TWO titles where the dog is required to heel off-leash. No matter how many threads you comment on about your dogs being able to heel off leash through the busiest of streets...from now on, I can see that they cannot actually do anything off leash as you've only tested two of them off lead.

I could care less that you've "trained" for it. You haven't done it. My dog did a CD walk through dozens of times before we titled for it. It didn't count UNTIL I went to THREE shows, and got THREE qualifying scores.

How can someone that's accomplished so little talk so big about training?

Now go out back and take a look at your dogs, cause at this point I'd question if they're even housebroken, having never actually stepped foot inside a house.


----------



## shepherdmom

Dainerra said:


> not sure this viewpoint would help. the more time I spend talking with the average person, the more I believe they shouldn't be allowed to own a goldfish.
> In today's world of cars, technology and internet I really don't know why people wouldn't find these things out. Why they don't find out in the beginning of their search.


That is a very elitist IMO. Average pet owner does not have the time, money or resources to go to Schutzhund or other sporting events and why should they? In my little town very few people own computers, the local library which is open 3 days a week only has a few, you are limited to 30 min, and there is usually a line. its not like people have access like they do in big towns. There is no cable around here, if you do have internet like me it is extremely slow and fairly expensive. 

I've had GSD's for 30 years and I've never been to a Schutzhund event. It's not like they have anything like that anywhere near where I am. Another poster from this area hasn't seen a Long Coat GSD in person. There are little towns like mine all across the USA. It's not like everyone lives in a big city and has access to the resources you are talking about.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

What I have learned from this thread is that I am a complete newbie who should not have been so opinionated... However, I am still glad that I ended up with two great dogs, inexperienced as I was.


----------



## RocketDog

chris wild said:


> oh to be a fly on the wall for that conversation! :wild:





liesje said:


> would it really be a "conversation"....lol


----------



## Dainerra

You don't even have to go to sporting events to do what I'm talking about. Look up online, read what the abbreviations stand for. Talk to the breeder about them and ask intelligent questions.
I'm on a forum where I an amazed on a regular basis - at least once a week someone makes a breathless appointment that they JUST learned that the gsd is a herding breed.
When westminster was airing, there were numerous complaints because the gsd was in the herding group instead of working. And people who said "I never realized that is why they were called shepherds. I figured out was just a name"

I live in a small town in rural Arkansas. I became active in my local club - it covers places that are 4-5 hours away. We do outreach at a lot of the big local events and fairs. Most kennel clubs do the same. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik

Dainerra said:


> You don't even have to go to sporting events to do what I'm talking about. Look up online, tad what the abbreviations stand for. Talk to the breeder about them and all intelligent questions.
> I'm on a forum where I an amazed on a regular basis - at least once a week someone makes a breathless appointment that they JUST learned that the gsd is a herding breed.
> When westminster was airing, there were numerous complaints because the gsd was in the herding group instead of working. And people who said "I never realized that is why they were called shepherds. I figured out was just a name"
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol...that's like the lady sitting next to me at my Herding Instinct Test...she goes, "German Shepherd? I didn't realize they were a herding dog." Her husband next to her slapped his own forehead and just goes, "That's where the shepherd comes from."


----------



## Merciel

selzer said:


> Maybe so, but we have multiple trials (2 anyway in the same day) here. so, if your dog can get first place on her last leg of the RA, move up and get first place on her first leg of her RE on the same day, that pretty much tells you that they can do this, piece of cake.
> 
> I suppose by the 10th trial, your dog may be ring savvy. I didn't think of that.


That's part of it. Another aspect is that to get 10 QQs in a reasonable amount of time, you have to hit up a bunch of different trials in different environments. Trials in high school gyms. Trials in convention centers. Trials in arena football venues. Trials in state parks. Trials on horseracing tracks. And so on.

You can't just trial on your club's familiar home field, the way you can if you only need to get three Qs and you can pick those up doing double trials over a single weekend (two runs Saturday, two runs Sunday, boom, done, and probably with an extra leg to spare).

I suspect that I'm only aware of this particular issue because I have a total trainwreck of a dog and so I have had to become very, _very_ sensitive to his reactions in every new environment we visit... but it is harder (albeit not _much_ harder, if you have a stable dog) to trial consistently in weird new venues for multiple runs to rack up 10 QQs.


----------



## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Take from my comments what you like.


I was asking for further clarification on your thoughts. You would prefer to throw out blanket statements and then not back them up?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Did she produce Buzz? If so ill run that dog off the field and then talk to her. If not I dont think I called her out ever?
> 
> Would I go to her for a top sport dog or a PPD? Nope.


You have already been told not to slam living dogs in another thread. Please stop slamming my breeder.


----------



## Nigel

RocketDog said:


> There isn't really anything here in Spokane. Other than my breeder, whom....well, nvmnd.
> 
> I could go to the West side, or a little farther south to Oregon, even up to Canada. And I would/will, but it's not like I can spend every weekend going over there right now. It's almost 400 miles just to Seattle from my house.
> 
> Availability of clubs really depends on where you live.


Haven't checked it out myself, but there was a schutzhund club started here. Your breeder was part of it, but I heard he "moved on", might be worth a look.
Spokane Schutzhund Club | Schutzhund Training | Spokane, WA

Edit, never mind, yes, Rocket, spokane is bfe, too far to go for anything worthwhile, I'll stick with learning agility.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jax08 said:


> I was asking for further clarification on your thoughts. You would prefer to throw out blanket statements and then not back them up?


No you made a blanket statement about my statement. I said how I feel about SAR. There are too many people doing it with everything ranging from shelter mutts, labs to sportline dogs. There are different groups with different standards. Its a venue that does not test all aspects of the dog notably bite work. Thats why its not enough for me.

If you or others believe its a breedworthy qual go nuts its a free country.


----------



## RocketDog

Nigel said:


> Haven't checked it out myself, but there was a schutzhund club started here. Your breeder was part of it, but I heard he "moved on", might be worth a look.
> Spokane Schutzhund Club | Schutzhund Training | Spokane, WA



Nope. He runs it. (And started it, after the previous one here finally fell apart. It had been coming for ages.)


----------



## hunterisgreat




----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> Out of your 9 dogs you only have ONE with a CD. Don't bring up the SchH1 because we all know you didn't do that yourself. Don't call people out on their ability to get titles when you don't have any either. My FIRST dog EVER has more titles than anything you have currently done with your dogs and you're BREEDING them.
> 
> I also noticed you have only TWO titles where the dog is required to heel off-leash. No matter how many threads you comment on about your dogs being able to heel off leash through the busiest of streets...from now on, I can see that they cannot actually do anything off leash as you've only tested two of them off lead.
> 
> I could care less that you've "trained" for it. You haven't done it. My dog did a CD walk through dozens of times before we titled for it. It didn't count UNTIL I went to THREE shows, and got THREE qualifying scores.
> 
> How can someone that's accomplished so little talk so big about training?
> 
> Now go out back and take a look at your dogs, cause at this point I'd question if they're even housebroken, having never actually stepped foot inside a house.


Actually the 12 dogs down there, are only my current dogs. I had a CD on Arwen, and titles on a bunch of other dogs as well. No biggie. I don't update it because every time I try it says I am using all the memory I have. 

With my first obedience dog, Arwen, I went into the ring three time and came away with three blue ribbons, and a title. In fact, when I started out in Rally, I finished 3 dogs and a got a leg on a fourth in the same weekend -- I titled six dogs in the first six months of showing, and then I went on. I watched Rally Advanced in August and thought, I can do that, and took a dog to the IX center in December and titled her there in three runs, and took I think two firsts and a third placement with her. 

In fact, half of my ring appearances netted me with placement ribbons, and just about every dog had at least one placement, which is pretty impressive considering I only could title three in Novice A where the placements are easiest.

Yes, I think I can talk about AKC dog training. I think I have completed enough titles on enough different dogs, usually titling multiple dogs at once, titling Heidi in RA, while titling Babs in her CD at the same show, and Milla and Ninja at the same show, Babs, Arwen, Rushie, and Jenna at the same show, Tori and Arwen at the same show. If I had one dog, maybe they would have a string of RAE legs, as well as higher obedience titles, but I decided to take them all through, including my washouts.


----------



## Jax08

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No you made a blanket statement about my statement. I said how I feel about SAR. There are too many people doing it with everything ranging from shelter mutts, labs to sportline dogs. There are different groups with different standards. Its a venue that does not test all aspects of the dog notably bite work. Thats why its not enough for me.
> 
> If you or others believe its a breedworthy qual go nuts its a free country.


You couldn't have just said this the first time I asked?

As I said, I was asking for clarification on your statement. I was not making a statement. I'll be more careful about my punctuation next time.


----------



## Nigel

RocketDog said:


> Nope. He runs it. (And started it, after the previous one here finally fell apart. It had been coming for ages.)


Yup, just looked and edited my post. Thought I heard differently not long ago, sadly that's not the case.


----------



## shepherdmom

Dainerra said:


> You don't even have to go to sporting events to do what I'm talking about. Look up online, read what the abbreviations stand for. Talk to the breeder about them and ask intelligent questions.
> 
> How do you ask intelligent questions when you don't know what to ask? and apparently you missed the part about most people in this town not having computers.
> 
> 
> I'm on a forum where I an amazed on a regular basis - at least once a week someone makes a breathless appointment that they JUST learned that the gsd is a herding breed.
> When westminster was airing, there were numerous complaints because the gsd was in the herding group instead of working. And people who said "I never realized that is why they were called shepherds. I figured out was just a name"


Some people haven't had the opportunities and advantages that you obviously have had. And then when they do ask questions or figure something out you are here on a public forum making fun of them. Gee I feel comfortable going and asking questions now.  I'm going to go right out and search down a club so I can make a fool out of myself and be mocked in public.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Thank you, Phgsd and Sparra for speaking about herding


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> Out of your 9 dogs you only have ONE with a CD. Don't bring up the SchH1 because we all know you didn't do that yourself. Don't call people out on their ability to get titles when you don't have any either. My FIRST dog EVER has more titles than anything you have currently done with your dogs and you're BREEDING them.
> 
> I also noticed you have only TWO titles where the dog is required to heel off-leash. No matter how many threads you comment on about your dogs being able to heel off leash through the busiest of streets...from now on, I can see that they cannot actually do anything off leash as you've only tested two of them off lead.
> 
> I could care less that you've "trained" for it. You haven't done it. My dog did a CD walk through dozens of times before we titled for it. It didn't count UNTIL I went to THREE shows, and got THREE qualifying scores.
> 
> How can someone that's accomplished so little talk so big about training?
> 
> Now go out back and take a look at your dogs, cause at this point I'd question if they're even housebroken, having never actually stepped foot inside a house.



Did you really do matches dozens of times before trying for a title leg? Really? I've been to matches in conformation, and I've gone to a fun match or two, to raise money for the shelter, but dozens of matches? For novice? That's wild. Matches are nice because they only cost 5 bucks -- cheaper than training classes and you can get ribbons, but no one puts them on anymore, not around here.


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> Actually the 12 dogs down there, are only my current dogs. I had a CD on Arwen, and titles on a bunch of other dogs as well. No biggie. I don't update it because every time I try it says I am using all the memory I have.
> 
> With my first obedience dog, Arwen, I went into the ring three time and came away with three blue ribbons, and a title. In fact, when I started out in Rally, I finished 3 dogs and a got a leg on a fourth in the same weekend -- I titled six dogs in the first six months of showing, and then I went on. I watched Rally Advanced in August and thought, I can do that, and took a dog to the IX center in December and titled her there in three runs, and took I think two firsts and a third placement with her.
> 
> In fact, half of my ring appearances netted me with placement ribbons, and just about every dog had at least one placement, which is pretty impressive considering I only could title three in Novice A where the placements are easiest.
> 
> Yes, I think I can talk about AKC dog training. I think I have completed enough titles on enough different dogs, usually titling multiple dogs at once, titling Heidi in RA, while titling Babs in her CD at the same show, and Milla and Ninja at the same show, Babs, Arwen, Rushie, and Jenna at the same show, Tori and Arwen at the same show. If I had one dog, maybe they would have a string of RAE legs, as well as higher obedience titles, but I decided to take them all through, including my washouts.


So the titling happened so long ago that you don't remember it? I understand.

Going the "back in the day I titled everything" I just don't remember when or what in.

Wow...it took you 4 months to title a dog in Rally Advanced?!?! You must be the new dog whisperer. I can't believe anyone can prepare for ONLY 4 months and title a dog in 3 shows. You're unbelievable! I'd be writing a book if I were you...because I've never heard of anyone being able to do that.

I got legs on the SAME dog in RAE and CD at the same show, two days in a row...you don't see me saying "its pretty impressive."

Keep on thinking that because you're slowly spreading RN titles over every dog you own it says anything about your training ability. And by your logic, you should be able to enter any one of those dogs in a show tomorrow and qualify with a CD leg....let me know when that happens.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Jax08 said:


> You couldn't have just said this the first time I asked?
> 
> 
> As I said, I was asking for clarification on your statement. I was not making a statement. I'll be more careful about my punctuation next time.


 
Your right I misread and thought you were trying to be a dink. My mistake.


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> Did you really do matches dozens of times before trying for a title leg? Really? I've been to matches in conformation, and I've gone to a fun match or two, to raise money for the shelter, but dozens of matches? For novice? That's wild. Matches are nice because they only cost 5 bucks -- cheaper than training classes and you can get ribbons, but no one puts them on anymore, not around here.


When part of a club, you do run through's for free. It's part of training. I know, its a hard concept to grasp that during training a dog actually gets tested for things, and the handler doesn't just assume "my dog can do that."


----------



## selzer

Merciel said:


> That's part of it. Another aspect is that to get 10 QQs in a reasonable amount of time, you have to hit up a bunch of different trials in different environments. Trials in high school gyms. Trials in convention centers. Trials in arena football venues. Trials in state parks. Trials on horseracing tracks. And so on.
> 
> You can't just trial on your club's familiar home field, the way you can if you only need to get three Qs and you can pick those up doing double trials over a single weekend (two runs Saturday, two runs Sunday, boom, done, and probably with an extra leg to spare).
> 
> I suspect that I'm only aware of this particular issue because I have a total trainwreck of a dog and so I have had to become very, _very_ sensitive to his reactions in every new environment we visit... but it is harder (albeit not _much_ harder, if you have a stable dog) to trial consistently in weird new venues for multiple runs to rack up 10 QQs.


I haven't been to trials in a while. Been working weekends. But, when I was trialing at first, I went all over Ohio and into PA a few times, the ice rink in Erie, a couple of different fairgrounds, the IX center in Cleveland, the polo grounds, out by the lake, and so forth. No high school gyms, though. Then I started only going to certain shows that I wanted to support the clubs, and within my driving distance. 

I didn't realize you had to get your ten QQs within a time-frame that would make a difference.


----------



## Merciel

selzer said:


> Did you really do matches dozens of times before trying for a title leg? Really? I've been to matches in conformation, and I've gone to a fun match or two, to raise money for the shelter, but dozens of matches? For novice?


Sure, I'd do it, if I were at that stage yet. I'm actually not even _that_ far along in training Pongu. My plan for him in obedience is, tentatively, CDSP --> AKC matches --> AKC.

It really depends what your goals are, I guess, but I don't automatically see anything weird about doing dozens of matches before going into Novice. I know people who do it and I think their reasons make sense.

If I were to take Pongu into the AKC Novice ring today, I expect that we would Q maybe 75-80% of the time (mostly depending on how the judge approached him for the SFE and whether there were any scary noises during the Stays, because if either of those things go wrong, we'd NQ for sure) and we would probably score somewhere in the mid to high 180s depending on how much of my dog showed up in the ring that day.

That's not a _terrible_ performance but it's really not what I want, either, especially since putting Pongu in the AKC ring today would probably erode his confidence and be detrimental to his performances over the long run. I'd get the title sooner, but I'd be hurting his career beyond that.

So in all likelihood we are going to end up doing dozens of matches -- and many trials in other venues that I will be effectively using for the same purpose of building Pongu's ring confidence -- before I put him in for Novice, if I _ever_ put him in for Novice.

I only have one competition dog and my one dog is crazy, of course, so my priorities and budget are aligned a little differently. I can most assuredly see why someone in a different position would choose not to spend so much time and cash on matches. Again, it just comes down to what you're trying to do and why.


----------



## Merciel

selzer said:


> I didn't realize you had to get your ten QQs within a time-frame that would make a difference.


You really don't. I mean, it's nothing in the rules that requires that. I just tend to trial that way out of personal preference. Once my dog is ready for a particular title, I'm going to do my best to bang it out. It's _getting_ to that point that takes forever.


----------



## selzer

martemchik said:


> When part of a club, you do run through's for free. It's part of training. I know, its a hard concept to grasp that during training a dog actually gets tested for things, and the handler doesn't just assume "my dog can do that."


Nah, the only time, I said, "my dog can do that" I went and took the dog to the next show and did just that.

The club I am a part of is too far away for me to go do run-throughs on a Wednesday afternoon. Even the training places I have gone through do run-throughs on weekends. Which means I am out now. I did one match with Jenna and one with Babs, when we first started out. Other than the fun match, and one set of run-throughs here in town (Babs and Heidi), that is about all the matches and run-throughs, I've been to, other than conformation. Usually, my girls' first show experience is their first title leg.


----------



## selzer

Merciel said:


> You really don't. I mean, it's nothing in the rules that requires that. I just tend to trial that way out of personal preference. Once my dog is ready for a particular title, I'm going to do my best to bang it out. It's _getting_ to that point that takes forever.


I got Heidi, her first RE leg in April, and then decided to wait until our club put on its specialty in August for her next leg. She hurt herself going over the jump, I wouldn't finish the run, and I retired her. I then decided I would go to 3 or 4 show weekends to get titles -- much easier, if the dog isn't in heat, then you get the whole thing banged out in the same weekend. Of course that is only 3 leg titles.


----------



## Packen

I am an optimist, think threads like this actually do educate the new enthusiasts. I believe more and more breeders should continue to see sales trending down unless they have IPO3 HOT in their credentials. You can easily see how they are defending useless titles by intriguing storytelling, haha.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I still couldn't turn down my two dogs from Schraderhaus lines. From the little I know, they are a good place to start.


----------



## Chris Wild

<<putting on Admin hat>>

Please stop the bickering and the "my dad can beat up your dad" childishness over who's trained and titled in what. There is a lot of good educational info in this thread, let's not ruin it.

-Chris


----------



## lafalce

Chris Wild said:


> <<putting on Admin hat>>
> 
> Please stop the bickering and the "my dad can beat up your dad" childishness over who's trained and titled in what. There is a lot of good educational info in this thread, let's not ruin it.
> 
> -Chris


I totally agree. This has been great informative thread!! We are all here to learn.

Thanks Chris for your informative posts!!!


----------



## Dainerra

shepherdmom said:


> Some people haven't had the opportunities and advantages that you obviously have had. And then when they do ask questions or figure something out you are here on a public forum making fun of them. Gee I feel comfortable going and asking questions now.  I'm going to go right out and search down a club so I can make a fool out of myself and be mocked in public.


they used to teach how to do that in school...... you pick a subject you are interested in. You go to the library (or in today's case right in your living room or on your phone) do a search. Tons and tons of things pop up. I type in German shepherd dog in google and it gives me About 55,000,000 results (0.49 seconds). The top of the list is the AKC page about the breed.

These people I'm talking about, the ones who were so amazed that the GSD is a herding dog? They are BREEDING!! They have put two dogs together, made a litter of puppies which they think of the greatest thing to happen to the GSD community since the breed was created and they don't even know why they are called "shepherds"????

I didn't have any advantages when I started in the breed. I had a computer and really crappy dial-up internet. I lived in rural WV. I looked up online about the breed. I called and talked to a couple breeders. I went out and met her and her dogs. I asked her questions. She asked me questions. She taught me because I was interested in learning.

Sadly, many people have no interest in learning. They see a picture of a brave police dog. They see someone post a picture of cute fluffy puppies and say "how much??" They expect to hand over money and be given what they want RIGHT NOW. And if the breeder asks them what they know about the breed and tries to educate??? Many get huffy and just go to someone else who is willing to sell, no questions ask. 
Those who want to educate, want their pups to go to the right home, are blasted as elitist and snobs. 

After moving to AR and when I was waiting for Singe to come home from the breeder, I joined the North ARkansas Kennel Club here. Now, I am on the board. After joining I became involved in Rally, Agility, and obedience. More than the basic classes that I had access to before. 

The people I mock are those aren't interested in learning. If they say the sky is purple and the sun rises at night, you are a big meanie if you share a link that says that is wrong. They delete that thread and start five others saying how everyone is so mean and won't accept other people's opinions. They complain to admin and try to have you kicked off the group.


----------



## Dainerra

martemchik said:


> When part of a club, you do run through's for free. It's part of training. I know, its a hard concept to grasp that during training a dog actually gets tested for things, and the handler doesn't just assume "my dog can do that."


 We have to pay for our match run throughs. The person judging that "event" might do a run-through for free but for the most part even they pay to play.

I don't know anyone who has done it "dozens" of times though. I know people who have put CDs on 6-7 month old puppies, first time out. 
I will admit that Singe doesn't have his CD yet. That's a training error on my part though. I ended up making him anticipate a recall when we do the down stay, so he has broken it both times he went in the ring. We just backed up a step and are going to do our BN first.


----------



## onyx'girl

Dainerra said:


> These people I'm talking about, the ones who were so amazed that the GSD is a herding dog? They are BREEDING!! They have put two dogs together, made a litter of puppies which they think of the greatest thing to happen to the GSD community since the breed was created and they don't even know why they are called "shepherds"????


Because many of them don't even know how to spell it so have no clue that herd is even in the dogs name.


----------



## martemchik

Packen said:


> I am an optimist, think threads like this actually do educate the new enthusiasts. I believe more and more breeders should continue to see sales trending down unless they have IPO3 HOT in their credentials. You can easily see how they are defending useless titles by intriguing storytelling, haha.


Yeah, the moment you have to tell a 5 minute story about why you don't have this title or that title and then try to prop them up by telling a story of when, how, what was going on when you got that title, everyone should get the idea that its not that impressive. Just having "excuses" for not titling dogs means you know its not acceptable and is questionable.

I've never heard of anyone have to explain the "circumstances" around getting their IPO3 or UDX or SAR certification.

A title is proof that you did X, lack of titles is proof that you didn't do X. I should be able to look at a pedigree without input from the breeder, and know exactly what the dog did and what its been tested in.


----------



## shepherdmom

Dainerra said:


> The people I mock are those aren't interested in learning. If they say the sky is purple and the sun rises at night, you are a big meanie if you share a link that says that is wrong. They delete that thread and start five others saying how everyone is so mean and won't accept other people's opinions. They complain to admin and try to have you kicked off the group.


Lets try this one more time. I'm a pet home! I do not care nor do I have the time and the energy to learn what an IPO vrs a CGH or any of that is. I don't care!! Titles mean jack to me! So you ARE mocking me because I'm not interested in learning. But I've got far more important things to worry about than what a silly sport title means. I've got 3 shepherds and I'd rather be outside playing with them than looking up and trying to figure out sport titles that I will NEVER use.


----------



## RocketDog

Shepherdmom, lets see if I can condense this into a simple concept.

The OP asked the question *"*_*what titles make a dog breedworthy?"*

_Not "What titles should people look for when getting a dog?"

You, yourself, don't have to give a whit about the titles, or what they mean. *

But to be breedworthy, the journey to achieving titles tells the breeder whether that individual dog is worthy of being bred and passing it's genetics on. *

The problem arises when people without the knowledge to look at a dog, understand the genetic code it's come from and what is dominant in it's genes, but also what might lie dormant and pass on in a breeding, start indiscriminately breeding. 

People who simply want a pet and companion often don't even know about titles, such as yourself. But ideally, the person breeding the dog does. 

This is the point.


----------



## shepherdmom

RocketDog said:


> Shepherdmom, lets see if I can condense this into a simple concept.
> 
> The OP asked the question *"*_*what titles make a dog breedworthy?"*
> 
> _Not "What titles should people look for when getting a dog?"
> 
> You, yourself, don't have to give a whit about the titles, or what they mean. *
> 
> But to be breedworthy, the journey to achieving titles tells the breeder whether that individual dog is worthy of being bred and passing it's genetics on. *
> 
> The problem arises when people without the knowledge to look at a dog, understand the genetic code it's come from and what is dominant in it's genes, but also what might lie dormant and pass on in a breeding, start indiscriminately breeding.
> 
> People who simply want a pet and companion often don't even know about titles, such as yourself. But ideally, the person breeding the dog does.
> 
> This is the point.


I totally get what you are saying and I agree with the person who said to look at the whole dog. 

I was responding specifically to the person who said some people should not even own pet goldfish and that we should all look up and research on the internet before we get a dog. I don't think that is a realistic expectation. Many pet people will make the attempt and have at least heard of AKC or UKC, but that won't always lead them to the good breeders. 

I guess it is a different topic but I would really like to know how a pet person is supposed to cut through all this and find the breeder who is producing "breed worthy" dogs when even the breeders don't always agree on what that is. Its very frustrating to read over and over again how our breed is being hurt by the "pet people" but when even the experts don't agree, I would have to say the problem is far more complex.


----------



## Blanketback

If titles were the 'be all and end all' then you'd never have people like me who've adopted adults (without knowing their lines) and still thought the world of them. This is said by someone who will never breed their dog, because there's already more than enough out there already. There's no chance I'll be harming the breed by keeping a fantastic specimen with an excellent bloodline from reproducing, since that pup would never be sold to me anyhow.


----------



## Merciel

Dainerra said:


> I don't know anyone who has done it "dozens" of times though. I know people who have put CDs on 6-7 month old puppies, first time out.


The reason some people will do dozens of matches before going in for Novice is because they're training their dogs up through Utility before they start trialing (because they may be gunning for the F&F Gold/Platinum Award or a similar honor), and/or they have a dog that is particularly difficult to trial (like Pongu, or like my friend's dog-aggressive pittie who took _years_ to get to the point where she was safe on group Stays -- but who did a sterling job when she finally did trial, and knocked out her CD in three tries with good scores).

I know this is a complete tangent, I just wanted to note for the record that sometimes there are good reasons that people do seemingly odd things.


----------



## carmspack

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...spack-buffy-badge-my-collar-breeding-wor.html


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> I guess it is a different topic but I would really like to know how a pet person is supposed to cut through all this and find the breeder who is producing "breed worthy" dogs when even the breeders don't always agree on what that is. Its very frustrating to read over and over again how our breed is being hurt by the "pet people" but when even the experts don't agree, I would have to say the problem is far more complex.





shepherdmom said:


> I'm a pet home! I do not care nor do I have the time and the energy to learn what an IPO vrs a CGH or any of that is. I don't care!! Titles mean jack to me! So you ARE mocking me because I'm not interested in learning.


I mean, take a minute to compare these two things. Because the problem is not "far more complex." The problem really is that simple.

If you don't care enough to learn, then you're not going to learn. Nobody can _make_ you care.

And to the extent that you (here a general "you," not you personally) are buying dogs out of ignorance rather than informed judgment, it hurts the breed.

As long as you're _adopting,_ it doesn't matter. You really don't need to know or care about any of this if you are adopting a homeless shelter or rescue dog. But if you are _buying,_ then it does matter, because you are voting with your home and dollars for what you want the breed to be.


----------



## robk

shepherdmom said:


> Lets try this one more time. I'm a pet home! I do not care nor do I have the time and the energy to learn what an IPO vrs a CGH or any of that is. I don't care!! Titles mean jack to me! So you ARE mocking me because I'm not interested in learning. But I've got far more important things to worry about than what a silly sport title means. I've got 3 shepherds and I'd rather be outside playing with them than looking up and trying to figure out sport titles that I will NEVER use.


This reminds me of a conversation I had with a lady a few weeks ago. She said to me that she is not really interested in learning about the breed, but yet wants to find a "girl friend" for her dysplastic male so she can get a pup by him before fully succumbs to his health problems.


----------



## Blanketback

If you're buying anything - not just GSDs, but cars, clothes, whatever - you're supporting the choices that the seller is making. If you're supporting slave labor to save a few bucks, or terrible environmental choices, or churning out sickly dogs, then that's what you're encouraging. When the money stops, that's when production will stop.


----------



## GrammaD

> I would really like to know how a pet person is supposed to cut through all this and find the breeder who is producing "breed worthy" dogs when even the breeders don't always agree on what that is. Its very frustrating to read over and over again how our breed is being hurt by the "pet people" but when even the experts don't agree, I would have to say the problem is far more complex.


Breeders should be producing FROM breeding worthy dogs (also, hopefully, producing some breeding worthy dogs in each litter) 

Pet people aren't hurting the breed unless they are breeding and/or buying from indiscriminate "breeders."

Experts may disagree on what areas of sport/performance/work prove a dog, but they all agree a CGC doesn't cut it and that you don't just throw together a couple of dogs because, gee, they are so nice and good with kids.

And yes, there are people who shouldn't own a goldfish. It's not snobbery to point out that there are a lot of lazy, thoughtless, and ignorant people out there who get pets for all the wrong reasons. Good breeders screen and won't sell to them. The kind of people who breed their nice pet to the neighbor's nice pet don't care as long as the buyer has the $$$ Pointing out that those people are hurting the breed (and dogs in general) and people shouldn't buy from them is also not snobbery.


----------



## shepherdmom

Merciel said:


> I mean, take a minute to compare these two things. Because the problem is not "far more complex." The problem really is that simple.
> 
> If you don't care enough to learn, then you're not going to learn. Nobody can _make_ you care.
> 
> And to the extent that you (here a general "you," not you personally) are buying dogs out of ignorance rather than informed judgment, it hurts the breed.
> 
> As long as you're _adopting,_ it doesn't matter. You really don't need to know or care about any of this if you are adopting a homeless shelter or rescue dog. But if you are _buying,_ then it does matter, because you are voting with your home and dollars for what you want the breed to be.


Take it a step further though... If you (general "you") the experts agreed, then a pet buyer could buy with the confidence of the experts behind them. 

They could go to one specific site on the internet and be done. It wouldn't be this confusing hodgepodge of information where one actually has to be an expert to choose wisely. 

Experts are telling us to vote with our dollars for what we want the breed to be but if you leave it up to the average pet buyer you are going to get oversize, shepherd looking, couch potatoes in a variety of cool colors.


----------



## Nigel

robk said:


> This reminds me of a conversation I had with a lady a few weeks ago. She said to me that she is not really interested in learning about the breed, but yet wants to find a "girl friend" for her dysplastic male so she can get a pup by him before fully succumbs to his health problems.


I dont see the correlation? How do you compare someone who has no intrest in sporting titles, but is otherwise a good pet owner to someone ignorantly wanting to breed a displastic dog? I know shepherdmom is comming from a different POV than some, but she never alluded to something like this.


----------



## martemchik

Here is the breed standard according to the AKC with regards to temperament:

"The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character.”

So…how many titles are there out there that will allow you to test for many of those things?

Some of the words that stick out to me…
1) Self-confidence
2) Approachable
3) Standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures
4) Poised, eager and alert
5) Not be timid, shrinking behind its master
6) Not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression
7) Not showing nervous reactions to strange sounds or sights

So…which titles allow you to test for these things? I’m not saying IPO is the only one, but if we’re talking about CGC, TC, HIC, the Rally titles…come on people.

And sure, we can equate certain exercises that are tested for in the CD or CGC to these things, but they’re under almost NO pressure. Wow! A judge can come up to your dog and pet it?!?! Breed that sucker! Or, your dog can stay in heel while you say hello to someone with another dog and not try to rip either the human’s or the dog’s throat out? Stud dog written all over it…


----------



## Blanketback

Hey martemchik, before you work yourself up into a frenzy - remember where your awesome boy came from.


----------



## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Take it a step further though... If you (general "you") the experts agreed, then a pet buyer could buy with the confidence of the experts behind them.
> 
> They could go to one specific site on the internet and be done. It wouldn't be this confusing hodgepodge of information where one actually has to be an expert to choose wisely.
> 
> Experts are telling us to vote with our dollars for what we want the breed to be but if you leave it up to the average pet buyer you are going to get oversize, shepherd looking, couch potatoes in a variety of cool colors.


Yup...but that's the problem. I don't know how many times I've seen a breeder ripped for not titling in this or that, and then another one gets recommended that doesn't title a bitch in this or that but the excuse/reason is "they're knowledgeable so I trust them to do what's right."

Why are some people "allowed" to do some things and others aren't?

Do you guys see how confusing it gets sometimes? When we support person X and question person Y for doing the same exact thing over something that's completely subjective?


----------



## shepherdmom

GrammaD said:


> And yes, there are people who shouldn't own a goldfish. It's not snobbery to point out that there are a lot of lazy, thoughtless, and ignorant people out there who get pets for all the wrong reasons. Good breeders screen and won't sell to them.


and there are a lot of good people out there who get bad pets not because they are lazy, thoughtless, or ignorant but because the information available is conflicting and confusing.


----------



## Jax08

martemchik said:


> Yup...but that's the problem. I don't know how many times I've seen a breeder ripped for not titling in this or that, and then another one gets recommended that doesn't title a bitch in this or that but the excuse/reason is "they're knowledgeable so I trust them to do what's right."
> 
> Why are some people "allowed" to do some things and others aren't?
> 
> Do you guys see how confusing it gets sometimes? When we support person X and question person Y for doing the same exact thing over something that's completely subjective?


And the more you learn, the less you recommend!


----------



## my boy diesel

so john q public (aka pet owner) sees this description and figures they are getting this type dog when they go to a byb

that is what people are trying to point out
people want the dog described in the akc standards

they are not getting that by going to a byb 
aka not properly titled dogs

no we pet owners dont care about or need titles on _our own_ dogs
we might not even care about if the parents have them or not

but if we buy a gsd off craiglist or even rescue one from a shelter we may not be getting the dog we want or that akc standard describes

because we are not buying from titled parents or rescuing from well bred titled parents 

which is, to beat a dead horse, why it is critical that only dogs that have passed tests (aka titles) are bred---- even for us general population
john q public
jane doe
and pet owners alike



martemchik said:


> Here is the breed standard according to the AKC with regards to temperament:
> 
> "The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character.”
> 
> So…how many titles are there out there that will allow you to test for many of those things?
> 
> Some of the words that stick out to me…
> 1) Self-confidence
> 2) Approachable
> 3) Standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures
> 4) Poised, eager and alert
> 5) Not be timid, shrinking behind its master
> 6) Not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression
> 7) Not showing nervous reactions to strange sounds or sights
> 
> So…which titles allow you to test for these things? I’m not saying IPO is the only one, but if we’re talking about CGC, TC, HIC, the Rally titles…come on people.
> 
> And sure, we can equate certain exercises that are tested for in the CD or CGC to these things, but they’re under almost NO pressure. Wow! A judge can come up to your dog and pet it?!?! Breed that sucker! Or, your dog can stay in heel while you say hello to someone with another dog and not try to rip either the human’s or the dog’s throat out? Stud dog written all over it…


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> Take it a step further though... If you (general "you") the experts agreed, then a pet buyer could buy with the confidence of the experts behind them.
> 
> They could go to one specific site on the internet and be done. It wouldn't be this confusing hodgepodge of information where one actually has to be an expert to choose wisely.


What's the best book? What's the best sport? What's the best flavor of chocolate?

It's subjective. Nobody can _tell_ you what your own personal answer should be. You have to go out there and form your own opinions of what you want in the world. There's a world of difference between Teuscher and Mast Brothers vs. Godiva and Ghiradelli vs. Hershey and Nestle vs. "milky chocolatey flavored candy" at the dollar store. The hardcore aficionados fight over nuances at the high end, the mid-level people enjoy their Godiva truffles and roll their eyes at the snobs, and everybody craps on Hershey but Hershey does big business.

Which one's right for you? The only thing anybody can tell you for sure is that you're never going to find out on the Internet.


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> Hey martemchik, before you work yourself up into a frenzy - remember where your awesome boy came from.


Lol...what does that have to do with it? I understand that at a certain level I got really lucky with what I have. But just because I got lucky once, and because many others have excellent dogs from sub-par breeders doesn't mean we should keep supporting that type of practice.

I'll never put down someone for getting a dog from a place I wouldn't touch. And I'll actually never put down anyone's dogs. But once you get "educated" you should set higher standards for yourself, and try to spread those onto others as well.


----------



## GrammaD

shepherdmom said:


> and there are a lot of good people out there who get bad pets not because they are lazy, thoughtless, or ignorant but because the information available is conflicting and confusing.



Or because even when they do everything "right" they still come home with a puppy with a problem. Happened to me.

But if he'd ended up in the hands of one of those people who shouldn't own a goldfish? He'd probably have been put down for biting someone or attacking another dog.

I do think, however, that the information is only conflicting and confusing to a person who isn't approaching buying a GSD with an open mind - ready to be be educated.


----------



## robk

Nigel said:


> I dont see the correlation? How do you compare someone who has no intrest in sporting titles, but is otherwise a good pet owner to someone ignorantly wanting to breed a displastic dog? I know shepherdmom is comming from a different POV than some, but she never alluded to something like this.


I'll admit it is a bit of a jump. But she basically told me that learning more about the breed was not important to her because she just wanted to breed her dog to get another pet.


----------



## shepherdmom

Merciel said:


> What's the best book? What's the best sport? What's the best flavor of chocolate?
> 
> It's subjective. Nobody can _tell_ you what your own personal answer should be. You have to go out there and form your own opinions of what you want in the world. There's a world of difference between Teuscher and Mast Brothers vs. Godiva and Ghiradelli vs. Hershey and Nestle vs. "milky chocolatey flavored candy" at the dollar store. The hardcore aficionados fight over nuances at the high end, the mid-level people enjoy their Godiva truffles and roll their eyes at the snobs, and everybody craps on Hershey but Hershey does big business.
> 
> Which one's right for you? The only thing anybody can tell you for sure is that you're never going to find out on the Internet.


If I were to buy chocolate, I could buy several different brands and test it out. When I'm buying a car I go test drive it. I can't do that with a dog. 
I have to trust the experts to guide me in the right direction. So experts we come back around to what title makes a dog is breed-worthy?

I have seen lots of posts questioning and people giving their qualifications to be an expert. I'm convinced. You are the experts. So could you agree on just this..one title? Which of the titles is going to give me the best pet dog ever? It's not that simple is it? If you can't agree with years and years of combined experience then please don't blame the pet owners for mucking up the breed.


----------



## shepherdmom

robk said:


> I'll admit it is a bit of a jump. But she basically told me that learning more about the breed was not important to her because she just wanted to breed her dog to get another pet.


Um no, I didn't. I don't breed dogs. I'm just a pet mom. I don't have time to research all the different sports and titles. Which title do I use so that I know what to look for when buying a pet?


----------



## my boy diesel

you dont buy a title you buy a puppy
you have to look at and know the dogs that are behind the titles


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> you dont buy a title you buy a puppy
> you have to look at and know the dogs that are behind the titles


I'll like the look of an oversize white shepherd. 

Ok I'm being purposefully obtuse above...but I'm trying to make a point.

How is the average joe pet owner off the street supposed to know what to look for? Not everyone that wants a pet, wants to make a life long research project out of it. 

So give him a place to start. What title should he look for?


----------



## ayoitzrimz

shepherdmom said:


> I'll like the look of an oversize white shepherd.
> 
> Ok I'm being purposefully obtuse above...but I'm trying to make a point.
> 
> How is the average joe pet owner off the street supposed to know what to look for? Not everyone that wants a pet, wants to make a life long research project out of it.
> 
> So give him a place to start. What title should he look for?


I honestly think shepherdmom that if a person does not want to do the research and just wants to have a "pet" that they should not be purchasing a puppy from a breeder AT ALL. Instead they should go to a shelter or breed specific rescue and rescue a fixed pure bred or mixed breed puppy or adult that they like. Most rescues will be able to match up a dog with what you are looking for so you don't *have* to do your research and you will not be supporting BYBs as a byproduct. On top of that you will be helping reduce the population of homeless pets.

So why would you go to a breeder without doing the research beforehand? If the average owner as you say doesn't KNOW what he's looking for ("sport dog", "SAR dog", "therapy dog") etc then they shouldn't be buying a puppy from a breeder.

Why not send the average owner to the shelter / rescue route? I think it's the perfect place for someone who just wants a best friend to spend the next 10+ years with


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> Um no, I didn't. I don't breed dogs. I'm just a pet mom. I don't have time to research all the different sports and titles. Which title do I use so that I know what to look for when buying a pet?


I had a long post here, but I think I'm just gonna cap off by saying: if you spent as much time listening and learning as you do protesting that you don't _have_ time to listen or learn (when clearly you do, because you keep reading and responding to this thread), it might prove more productive.

This thread, and all the others like it, are basically Cliff's Notes to the breed. Not at all the same thing as spending years to develop firsthand experience and appreciation, but helpful in a cursory way.

But past a certain point you cannot condense things any further without not only losing nuance, but losing the meaning altogether. At some point, the audience has to be willing to put in some effort of their own.


----------



## Jack's Dad

shepherdmom said:


> I'll like the look of an oversize white shepherd.
> 
> Ok I'm being purposefully obtuse above...but I'm trying to make a point.
> 
> How is the average joe pet owner off the street supposed to know what to look for? Not everyone that wants a pet, wants to make a life long research project out of it.
> 
> So give him a place to start. What title should he look for?



It's simple. In California you google German Shepherd Breeders CA.

There you will find numerous breeders that title, do every health test known to humans, hip and elbow, contracts etc..

All the bells and whistles that are recommended.

Then you flip a coin and pick out your puppy. Send them a non refundable deposit and in the near future your puppy will appear. 

No problem.


----------



## Blanketback

martemchik said:


> Lol...what does that have to do with it?


I think it should have _alot_ to do with how your posts represent you. You're not someone with decades of experience with the breed - but some of your posts to others who do have this experience (not only in this thread) seem to place you either on par with them, or ahead of them. This is confusing to a newbie, and you should be aware of this. Unless you're intending to project a certain image, in which case it's the 'net where anything goes, so whoop de doo.


----------



## Bequavious

Merciel said:


> What's the best book? What's the best sport? What's the best flavor of chocolate?
> 
> It's subjective. Nobody can _tell_ you what your own personal answer should be. You have to go out there and form your own opinions of what you want in the world. There's a world of difference between Teuscher and Mast Brothers vs. Godiva and Ghiradelli vs. Hershey and Nestle vs. "milky chocolatey flavored candy" at the dollar store. The hardcore aficionados fight over nuances at the high end, the mid-level people enjoy their Godiva truffles and roll their eyes at the snobs, and everybody craps on Hershey but Hershey does big business.
> 
> Which one's right for you? The only thing anybody can tell you for sure is that you're never going to find out on the Internet.


Can I just say I love this analogy? It's just too bad all those happy Hershey munchers are destroying the world of premium chocolates 

and with this:


Merciel said:


> As long as you're adopting, it doesn't matter. You really don't need to know or care about any of this if you are adopting a homeless shelter or rescue dog. But if you are _buying_, then it does matter, because you are voting with your home and dollars for what you want the breed to be.


 I think a lot of people ARE voting for what they want the breed to be. Some people just want the breed to be something different than what other people want it to be, which kind of explains why there are so many breeds to begin with


----------



## shepherdmom

Merciel said:


> I had a long post here, but I think I'm just gonna cap off by saying: if you spent as much time listening and learning as you do protesting that you don't _have_ time to listen or learn (when clearly you do, because you keep reading and responding to this thread), it might prove more productive.
> .



I'm not the average pet owner and I did follow many of the suggestions I've seen posted. I got involved w 4-h and sar I looked for health testing both sire and dam were certified scent work and cadaver dogs. And yet still somehow I wound up with what one person here said looked like they were faded out pet dogs. 

I do really love the suggestion of the person before this one who suggested pet owners should go to rescue kudos. 

I guess the whole point I'm trying to make is the issues isn't as simplistic and black and white as some people like to portray it and that that pet owners are not the only reason for the problems in the breed. 

Sorry for any typos Siri stinks. Lol. 





Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> I think it should have _alot_ to do with how your posts represent you. You're not someone with decades of experience with the breed - but some of your posts to others who do have this experience (not only in this thread) seem to place you either on par with them, or ahead of them. This is confusing to a newbie, and you should be aware of this. Unless you're intending to project a certain image, in which case it's the 'net where anything goes, so whoop de doo.


So what you're saying is that because I have less experience, my knowledge is worth less than those that have been stuck in their way for decades and impress you by naming off dogs from the 1970s and 1980s on a regular basis?

Am I only supposed to say my OPINION when I'm 50 years old and have had decades of experience?

On a broader scale...should I be allowed to vote? I haven't had "enough" experience in that venue either...

It's quite sad when people are willing to put so much weight on people that have done things one way for decades and have no idea if they've evolved or not and then shoot down anyone that comes along with a new idea.

FYI...blanketback, you actually have ZERO knowledge if the people you put so much weight in that have had all that experience, actually have it. There has NEVER been any proof provided on this forum that the people are who they say they are and have accomplished what they claim to have accomplished.

I guess our opinions now have to be backed up by our resumes....


----------



## Blanketback

No, that's not it at all. It's an issue of respect, and of gratitude. Respect for what they've accomplished, and gratitude for sticking around here and trying to educate us. Where do you think knowledge comes from, turning over rocks?


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> No, that's not it at all. It's an issue of respect, and of gratitude. Respect for what they've accomplished, and gratitude for sticking around here and trying to educate us. Where do you think knowledge comes from, turning over rocks?


Mine comes from off this forum from very well respected and knowledgeable people that I work with and communicate with. I've SEEN with my own eyes their accomplishments and their abilities as trainers.

You haven't seen any of the people's accomplishments you speak of. You actually have NO idea if they did what they claim to have done or not. You just choose to believe what they've spewed on this forum for years.

When your idea of "educating us" becomes calling people out and getting extremely offensive with others, you've lost all respect you might've had in the first place in my book. The way to educate isn't to belittle someone and then throw your accomplishment in their face (over the computer screen).


----------



## Blanketback

What comes from this forum via a post can be googled, and further research can be obtained from the content of those posts. If you so desire, that is. Obviously if you're not into that, then yeah you're right, who cares what someone posts. I guess it depends on just how much you want to learn.

ETA: "extremely offensive" could also be: asking when someone was on a training field last, or insinuating a person's dogs aren't housetrained. Both got under my skin, FYI.


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> What comes from this forum via a post can be googled, and further research can be obtained from the content of those posts. If you so desire, that is. Obviously if you're not into that, then yeah you're right, who cares what someone posts. I guess it depends on just how much you want to learn.


Lol...so reading a website...created by the person in question is enough "secondary research" for you to accept that they are who they are?

I love people who'd rather research on google than get out and get some real knowledge in the real world.

BTW...just because you QUESTION someone, doesn't mean you don't learn from them or their opinion. There is absolutely nothing wrong IMO with questioning what someone says, no matter how much experience or knowledge they claim to have over you. That's how ideas evolve.


----------



## my boy diesel

ayoitzrimz said:


> I honestly think shepherdmom that if a person does not want to do the research and just wants to have a "pet" that they should not be purchasing a puppy from a breeder AT ALL. Instead they should go to a shelter or breed specific rescue and rescue a fixed pure bred or mixed breed puppy or adult that they like. Most rescues will be able to match up a dog with what you are looking for so you don't *have* to do your research and you will not be supporting BYBs as a byproduct. On top of that you will be helping reduce the population of homeless pets.
> 
> So why would you go to a breeder without doing the research beforehand? If the average owner as you say doesn't KNOW what he's looking for ("sport dog", "SAR dog", "therapy dog") etc then they shouldn't be buying a puppy from a breeder.
> 
> Why not send the average owner to the shelter / rescue route? I think it's the perfect place for someone who just wants a best friend to spend the next 10+ years with


oh! because they wont get rin tin tin if they rescue!
little do they know going to a byb is going to be worse quite probably!


----------



## martemchik

I feel like shepherdmom is getting too much flack for just stating the opinion of the majority of GSD owners.

I don't blame the public for "ruining" this breed. I don't believe the breed is ruined. It takes two to make a market.

So as much as the "pet people" might not know what they're doing. There are always breeders out there trying to please those people. The people that are supposed to know better, are chasing a quick buck and are trying to differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd. Not by titles, or accomplishments, but by just being different and straying from the standard.

The breed standard is just like the constitution or the bible. It's so easy to interpret it any way you want and try to conform the standard to what you're doing with your breedings.

I spoke with a breeder or ASL dogs, she is fairly successful in conformation. Very dead set against WL. She is a stickler of the breed standard. Knows it inside and out. Her males and females are both constantly over the breed standard for their gender. She was telling me that her male, would have a problem biting a sleeve because he's too big and his jaw isn't made for biting one, but WL dogs have been bred smaller and have an easier time biting a sleeve. She told me all about how the breed was never meant to bite humans, its a SHEPHERD, if anything it was meant to bite wolves while protecting a flock (her words). Didn't mention a single word about how the founder of our breed was the one that developed Schutzhund as a breed test...

So...before anyone questions that story, its just there to point out how people will pick and choose bits and pieces of the standard and the breed history in order to make their own breeding decisions. This conversation didn't come out of an argument, it was actually more for education. But when someone starts talking "facts" and leaving out huge parts of the history of the breed...you have to question their knowledge or their intention.


----------



## sitstay

Blanketback said:


> ETA: "extremely offensive" could also be: asking when someone was on a training field last, or insinuating a person's dogs aren't housetrained. Both got under my skin, FYI.


Anybody that is putting their opinion out there and giving advise should be willing to answer questions. If they get defensive, or start to deflect, maybe they shouldn't be offering advise to begin with. This is just my opinion, of course. 

If you haven't stepped into a competitive ring for several years, but continue to offer your experiences up as if they are very current, shouldn't those people who might consider following the advice of that person be aware of that? 

The question of how someone is able to separate the the wannabes from the actual-bes has an answer that starts with being open about answering questions regarding qualifications, experience, etc. No excuses. No deflections and no whining about being picked on. 

Look, everyone has an opinion. And everyone has a right to their opinion. Where the problem begins is when we can't acknowledge that some opinions are worth more than others. And one of the ways we can weigh the usefulness of all these various opinions is by the answers we get to questions. 
Sheilah


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> ETA: "extremely offensive" could also be: asking when someone was on a training field last, or insinuating a person's dogs aren't housetrained. Both got under my skin, FYI.


And what is the reason those people are allowed to question my qualifications or call out my own trialing schedule without getting under your skin is what?

I guess it wasn't "extremely offensive" when I was asked how I've helped people and what are my qualifications to do so, when that same person, decided to completely deflect and not answer my question, and in the 4 years I've been on this forum, I have never once seen that person mention anything about their qualifications. People just assume and go along with the flock.

I guess it wasn't "extremely offensive" for someone to call me out for thinking a CD is way more difficult than a rally title even though THEY don't actually have one, but have gotten one before, back before I was born. I guess the AKC ring hasn't changed in 30 years so their experience is just as valuable (or even more valuable according to you) than mine is.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jack's Dad said:


> It's simple. In California you google German Shepherd Breeders CA.
> 
> There you will find numerous breeders that title, do every health test known to humans, hip and elbow, contracts etc..
> 
> All the bells and whistles that are recommended.
> 
> Then you flip a coin and pick out your puppy. Send them a non refundable deposit and in the near future your puppy will appear.
> 
> No problem.


The point of the above post was to show that even if the average pet owner bought from one of these breeders ( who match the forums general requirements) you still won't know anymore than if you got a puppy from a rescue or animal shelter

Unless you are a geneticist or have years studying pedigrees and accomplishments of individual dogs and lines you'll still be lost.

My only suggestion is to find someone with dogs you like and find out where they came from.

No one can cram years of experience into themselves just to buy a dog. No matter the breed.


----------



## Blanketback

The only thing I've ever done with my dog is Therapy work, so the titles that you're working towards aren't something I know about. Were you insulted? IDK. If you say that was insulting, then I have to take your word for it. I know that doing almost 7 years of TD with my dog, and then having someone brag about passing the TD test with their dog - without ever setting foot into an actual TD setting, and never intending to, either - is demeaning, so maybe that's comparable?


----------



## Jax08

Jack's Dad said:


> My only suggestion is to find someone with dogs you like and find out where they came from.



WAIT...when I suggested basically the same thing, i.e. going to events, watching the dogs and finding the ones you like, you pretty much said it was useless advice.

So how does yours differ? How would you go about finding someone with dogs you like in order to find out where they came from?


----------



## Jack's Dad

Jax08 said:


> WAIT...when I suggested basically the same thing, i.e. going to events, watching the dogs and finding the ones you like, you pretty much said it was useless advice.
> 
> So how does yours differ? How would you go about finding someone with dogs you like in order to find out where they came from?


It's not that different but I thought you were reffering to IPO because that and conformation are where titles come from.

The nearest IPO events for me are over a hundred miles away in any direction. They have a couple of conformation shows within 50 miles about twice a year. I don't see how that will help people in my area.

Not to mention in IPO or conformation it helps if you know what to look for.

Maybe where you live there are lots of events but where I live they are few and far between. People who want a family companion of The GSD variety are not realisticely going to drive all over to witness things they don't care about or understand.

There are no easy answers to getting a good solid GSD from a breeder.

I think now I could do it but it was a huge crapshoot when I got lucky and got Jack over seven years ago and I had dogs for fifty years when I got him.


----------



## David Winners

martemchik said:


> So what you're saying is that because I have less experience, my knowledge is worth less than those that have been stuck in their way for decades and impress you by naming off dogs from the 1970s and 1980s on a regular basis?
> 
> Am I only supposed to say my OPINION when I'm 50 years old and have had decades of experience?
> 
> On a broader scale...should I be allowed to vote? I haven't had "enough" experience in that venue either...
> 
> It's quite sad when people are willing to put so much weight on people that have done things one way for decades and have no idea if they've evolved or not and then shoot down anyone that comes along with a new idea.
> 
> FYI...blanketback, you actually have ZERO knowledge if the people you put so much weight in that have had all that experience, actually have it. There has NEVER been any proof provided on this forum that the people are who they say they are and have accomplished what they claim to have accomplished.
> 
> I guess our opinions now have to be backed up by our resumes....


What about trainers that have been working with dogs for 20-30-40 years that have also devoted their lives to keeping up with our ever increasing pool of knowledge of animal behavior and learning?

You dismiss those with decades of experience as trainers stuck in their ways. How can you assume this? 

I feel that trainers that spend 40 or more hours a week working with a variety of dogs in a variety of venues have far more experience than those that have trained 1-2 dogs in regular pet obedience. To deny that experience does lend greater weight to an opinion is a mistake. You see it all the time. "I trained my one dog in my back yard like this, so this is the perfect way to train all dogs. Period. This guy with 20 years of experience doesn't know what he's talking about. He is just stuck in his ways." The experienced trainer can site scientific proof, has a body of work to refer to, has thousands of times more experience than the other person, but is ridiculed for disagreeing. Why bother?

It would be akin to me trying to take over at a Michael Ellis seminar because I have trained using his methods.

I haven't been getting as involved in the board lately for just these reasons. I still read most threads and comment from time to time, but it's not worth getting involved in detail because every disagreement I have turns into me defending my opinion and the other party ignoring all reference material and actual experiences I have had in favor of what they think. It becomes tiring to constantly fight the uphill battle of proving oneself time and again.

I'm not saying that I am right. Period. I learn something about dogs every day, and sometimes the source is someone with far less experience than myself. I have an open mind and I'm ready to listen to any opinion that is based on factual data. I believe everyone has the right to their own opinion, but to rail against someone with hands on experience in a situation, simply because they think a certain way, is not productive or respectful. 

Part of the problem is the internet. Anyone can post anything they want. They can spend hours delving through information developing the appearance of experience through the terms they use. This all falls apart in person. When you can watch someone work a dog, you can very quickly discern their experience level and aptitude. This doesn't happen on the internet. One day someone is asking questions about the most difficult part of a CGC, and a week later they are posting advice on how to handle an aggressive dog or the most effective method of using a training collar, and they sound experienced in their post because of how they present their opinion. People who have never titled a dog or seen a trial are posting on how worthless titles are. People who have never worked the street a day in their life are posting about what it means to be a LE K9, SAR dog, MIL dog, Service dog. "I always mess with my dog's food and have never had a resource guarding problem. Therefore I am right and you are wrong," even though I have trained hundreds of possessive dogs that have had possession built into them through conditioning. Opinion and experience ignored and challenged every step of the way. It's not worth it.

It is considered rude by most to question someone's experience and bring it to light in a conversation. How can this be productive? The first thing an instructor does when developing a relationship with a student is express their credentials and experience and ask the same of the student. It is valuable to ascertain where someone's opinion is developed to better apply any information they have to the situation at hand. Questioning someone's credentials is considered offensive. It makes no sense. 

How many real professionals post on this board? Why is that? They love to talk dogs. They love to help others. It is their life. They know that their training schedules and check books will not be effected by giving free advice on the internet. Why spend 80% of their time defending themselves, 10% of their time dealing with wierdos, and 10% of their time actually having productive discussion about theory, training, behavior and experiences.

In my situation, I am so involved here because I am separated from the world of dogs, and live vicariously through the boards. It helps me stay in touch with dogs and fill that gap in my life. When I get back to the world, back to my family, back to training every day, and get my Fama back, I won't spend much time here at all. I long for the day when my calluses are from the leash and not the keyboard 


*Disclaimer: this post was not to be offensive or personal to anyone in particular. It is just my own opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with it or care one way or another. 

Tl;dr... don't blame you


----------



## onyx'girl

The IPO FB page was requesting that any posters put their titles at the end of their post to prove their credentials. Didn't go over well, but I could see the point in the request. At least it didn't ask to post the failed trials or scorebook info.


----------



## Jax08

I see...so it all depends on WHO says it to make it worthwhile.


----------



## SunCzarina

David Winners said:


> Tl;dr... don't blame you


I read all of that but would have stopped after the second paragraph if it was blah blah blah 'why I'm so great and my opinion matters'. Like your wit. 

Yes food aggression is a conditioned response - what have you got for me to convince Otto that Venus is Morgan's not coming back from the dead to stare at him that she can take his food?


----------



## Merciel

onyx'girl said:


> The IPO FB page was requesting that any posters put their titles at the end of their post to prove their credentials. Didn't go over well, but I could see the point in the request. At least it didn't ask to post the failed trials or scorebook info.


I post about all _my_ failed trials. I have a whole thread about them! Works great, nobody ever asks me about my failure credentials.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Well I'm not a breeder or a trainer and I have not ever been involved in any protection sport.

However, my life experience, education, and common sense (seems in short supply around here) tells me that no matter how difficult it is to title a dog, the title alone doesn't mean the dog will reproduce it's self.

I don't have anything to do with race horses either but there is ample information that not all champions reproduce themselves.

Some have turned out to be real duds.


----------



## sitstay

Jack's Dad said:


> No one can cram years of experience into themselves just to buy a dog. No matter the breed.


Of course not. But you can educate yourself about that breed, at least enough to know what you want and need and how to get it. 

I just purchased my new puppy. Of a breed/variety that I had no experience with. I took the time to learn the basics about the health issues and the various testing that can be done. I took the time to get out and talk to people involved in the breed so I could benefit from experience I didn't have. I went into it knowing that finding the right breeder and then the right puppy could take some time. 

Not having "years of experience" in a breed shouldn't give anyone a pass. You don't need that kind of back ground to make an informed decision. 
Sheilah


----------



## David Winners

Jax08 said:


> I see...so it all depends on WHO says it to make it worthwhile.


In my eyes, absolutely not. It depends on how said opinion is formed, what evidence or experience leads to that opinion, and how that opinion is presented.


----------



## martemchik

For some reason...depending on level of experience "opinion" becomes "law" somewhere along the line in the minds of many people on this forum. That is something that I don't agree with.

Dog training is mostly opinion...what worked for one dog, won't work for another. And sure, someone might've accumulated more opinions along the way while they've been working with dogs, but nothing is ever written in stone. You can't just say, this works, or this is the way it is, because its not. It's an opinion. And I have no problem questioning someone's opinion. It's when others decide that its wrong for me, or anyone else, to question that person's opinion based only on who that person has made themselves out to be on this forum, that I find issue with people.


----------



## selzer

sit said:


> Of course not. But you can educate yourself about that breed, at least enough to know what you want and need and how to get it.
> 
> I just purchased my new puppy. Of a breed/variety that I had no experience with. I took the time to learn the basics about the health issues and the various testing that can be done. I took the time to get out and talk to people involved in the breed so I could benefit from experience I didn't have. I went into it knowing that finding the right breeder and then the right puppy could take some time.
> 
> Not having "years of experience" in a breed shouldn't give anyone a pass. You don't need that kind of back ground to make an informed decision.
> Sheilah


11 years on a dog forum doesn't exactly make you a newbie to the world of purebred dogs. The thing is that most people buying a puppy haven't been exposed to dog-people, dog forums, and they may think that the norm is to buy a dog at the pet store, or to get one out of the newspaper. 

They have not done all this research that you did because they have never been exposed to the world of purebred dogs. And no, you don't do that research with mongrels.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> You can't just say, this works, or this is the way it is, because its not. It's an opinion. And I have no problem questioning someone's opinion. It's when others decide that its wrong for me, or anyone else, to question that person's opinion based only on who that person has made themselves out to be on this forum, that I find issue with people.


Maybe it makes more sense to question how they reached their opinion rather than the opinion itself?


----------



## SunCzarina

^ always. Besides, nobody likes to be told WHAT to do or what they need to do. It's all very Dale Carnegie and far more effective to say when that happened to *me* this is what *I* did.


----------



## Jax08

David Winners said:


> In my eyes, absolutely not. It depends on how said opinion is formed, what evidence or experience leads to that opinion, and how that opinion is presented.



LOL That wasn't directed at you. I haven't even read your post yet. 

I went out to lay a track for my puppy and then did some obedience, which he sucked at tonight. Talk about all over the place. :wild:


----------



## glowingtoadfly

The only reason I stated in the other thread that I don't believe IPO is the be all and end all of breedworthiness is that my breeder and her dog were under internet attack. Even after all of the opinions that the CGC and HIC are not enough to prove a dog breedworthy, I still believe that my breeder knows and trains her dogs privately to test their breedworthiness because I trust her experience, and I know she is working on titling more.
I did research on her dogs and on the schraderhaus lines on this very forum before bringing my first dog home and only read good things. We decided to go with a breeder instead of a rescued GSD because we wanted health tests and temperament tests.Knowing the number of poorly bred GSDs in shelters, we did not want to take the risk. I also liked the idea of rehabilitating a dog if I couldn't rescue one- that is why we decided to take home a return. As a newbie with strong opinions on positive training I believe that my breeder came under attack here because of me, and my ill informed inexperienced recommendations of her, and for that I am very sorry. I have learned a lot on this thread, but was it worth the price of putting my breeder's reputation at stake because some people were questioning my opinions and attacking them? No. I am grateful for the information and opinions offered here but could have done without the bashing. I hope this doesn't come off as inciting conflict as an admin has already spoken to me about my temper and I enjoy learning on the forums...


----------



## sitstay

selzer said:


> 11 years on a dog forum doesn't exactly make you a newbie to the world of purebred dogs.


Actually, no amount of time on an internet dog forum will change someone's experience level. Eleven years. Two years. Thirty years. It doesn't matter. That just shows that at some point I took the few minutes to register. It doesn't guarantee that I have carried away anything of value. 

You don't have to be a dedicated, experienced dog person to know that researching a purchase is a good thing. It doesn't matter if it is a car or a dog. And if you're going to research something, you rely on the opinions of others who have more experience with whatever it is you're interested in buying. And some opinions are worth more than others. That is just a fact. 
Sheilah


----------



## sitstay

glowingtoadfly said:


> The only reason I stated in the other thread that I don't believe IPO is the be all and end all of breedworthiness is that my breeder and her dog were under internet attack. Even after all of the opinions that the CGC and HIC are not enough to prove a dog breedworthy, I still believe that my breeder knows and trains her dogs privately to test their breedworthiness because I trust her experience, and I know she is working on titling more.


Am I missing something about your breeder? It sure appears that she does a whole heck of a lot more than just CGC certificates and HIC. And it at least looks like she is in the public arena with them, so she is doing more than simply training privately.
Sheilah


----------



## glowingtoadfly

No, you aren't missing anything and she does more with her dogs than the hic and the cgc. Those titles are displayed proudly with the others


----------



## sitstay

glowingtoadfly said:


> No, you aren't missing anything and she does more with her dogs than the hic and the cgc. Those titles are displayed proudly with the others


As they should be! Tell it loud and tell it proud! She walks her talk and can back up opinion with experience. Nothing "attack" worthy there.
Sheilah


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Ipo 3 hot?


----------



## Packen

selzer said:


> 11 years on a dog forum doesn't exactly make you a newbie to the world of purebred dogs.


You can drive a car for 30 years but does that make you a race car driver? No it just makes you a driver. Someone can actually spend time to learn to be race car driver and if he/she has what it takes, can win championships in a few years time let alone 11 years! 

It ain't the time or age but genetics/nerve/training that produces results and those results speak for themselves, they do not need 500 words to defend them


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I had no idea that this would be such a divisive topic when I began asking...


----------



## onyx'girl

And we all don't need to be the top dog. Some just enjoy running with the pack.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

onyx'girl said:


> And we all don't need to be the top dog. Some just enjoy running with the pack.


And some are resource guarders...


----------



## selzer

Packen said:


> You can drive a car for 30 years but does that make you a race car driver? No it just makes you a driver. Someone can actually spend time to learn to be race car driver and if he/she has what it takes, can win championships in a few years time let alone 11 years!
> 
> It ain't the time or age but genetics/nerve/training that produces results and those results speak for themselves, they do not need 500 words to defend them


Don't take stuff out of context, if you have registered here then you most likely have been exposed to the many how to find a breeder threads. At least moreso than John Q Public who is taking their first trip to owning a purebred dog. 

The gal who came on discussing buying a Samoyed for her daughter, who was practically run off with parenting advice to have the daughter work with the shepherd or get a mongrel or whatever -- what a good opportunity for a parent to teach a child, this is how we go about finding out about a breed, and researching breeders. 

If your parents answered an ad in the newspaper to find a pup, then why should a youngster going out to find their puppy automatically have it come to him that he should research the breed and run a 100 point check on a dozen breeders before deciding on one? 

That kind of knowledge isn't imprinted on our brains before birth like finding the teet is to a whelp.

ETA: I bought two camaros from my mother, a oldsmobile from my aunt, a neon new from a plymouth dealer, and an Explorer from a chevy dealer, the Honda was given to me. All were used but the Neon. I never did a stitch of research on any of them. The ones I bought, I went to the dealer, took a test ride and bought the car. Of course, cars are a necessary evil in my opinion, I do not have them because I like them. I have them because the nearest mailbox is 4 miles away, and the bicycle isn't an all weather vehicle. Work and training classes are farther away, and you just need a vehicle around here.


----------



## Packen

Nothing is out of context if the regular driver admits that he/she is just a driver like million others! But when that regular driver proclaims "hey I've been driving for 30 years, I know it all" is when someone will gently send a reminder about being a regular driver for 30 years is not so special as that regular driver believes.


----------



## selzer

Packen said:


> Nothing is out of context if the regular driver admits that he/she is just a driver like million others! But when that regular driver proclaims "hey I've been driving for 30 years, I know it all" is when someone will gently send a reminder about being a regular driver for 30 years is not so special as that regular driver believes.


I am not sure what you are talking about. 

Sit,stay discussed her research into a new breed and breeder as an anecdote as how being a newbie doesn't give you a free pass into not knowing what to look for when getting a puppy. But she has been a member here for 11 years. She has owned other purebred dogs. Of course she should know a little more about the importance of finding a good breeder regardless of what breed than someone who is getting their first purebred dog, who has never been exposed to anyone that took them through the process of getting a dog from a breeder.

I've never said I know it all but I have shown for about 5 years within the last 7 or 8 and titled a bunch of dogs. I feel I can comment on Rally and Obedience and I think my opinion on a CD not being more difficult for me than Rally is just as valid as someone else's opinion that it is more difficult. When someone makes a statement that I have found to not be true, I have the right to say so. Or, is there some new posting rules here, that unless you are titling working line dogs in bitework, you have nothing to say about anything?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

selzer said:


> * Or, is there some new posting rules here, that unless you are titling working line dogs in bitework, you have nothing to say about anything?


ROFL Sue, that is what I started believing....


----------



## Merciel

glowingtoadfly said:


> I had no idea that this would be such a divisive topic when I began asking...


Everything that anybody bothers posting about is a divisive topic. Otherwise it's no fun to discuss and the thread dies with 4 replies of "get a trainer."


----------



## Packen

So what was the question? Looks like it was what makes a dog breed worthy? BS1, BS2 and BS3 do not make it breed worthy. Incidentally the ones that do make it are the ones most people find very difficult to obtain so rely on 500 word (or more) essays to try to run the shortcut. Sorry but newbies need to know this.


----------



## Packen

Now I have to go feed my mutts, but it does not take 3 hours!


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Many people have replied that titles alone cannot make a dog breedworthy, it is a subjective decision made by the breeder on the whole dog, made through the process of attaining those titles.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Really? How do you know?


----------



## Packen

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Really? How do you know?


Because it is so GrassHopper, there are decades of "experience" behind those words!


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I simply stated the reply that jives best with me... Make of it what you will..


----------



## selzer

glowingtoadfly said:


> I simply stated the reply that jives best with me... Make of it what you will..


Your reply was a good one, and if you came up with it over the course of this thread, than maybe it was worth the many pages and back and forths.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Repeating what you read on a forum as opposed to going out and understanding what the words mean is never a good thing. Even if your a forum veteren..


----------



## selzer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Repeating what you read on a forum as opposed to going out and understanding what the words mean is never a good thing. Even if your a forum veteren..


The only reason to ask advice on a dog forum is to read the advice and to choose what makes the best sense to you, for your situation, and for the individuals involved. Why even have a forum, if reading the stuff on a dog forum is nothing, you need to go out and figure it all out for yourself. 

A great friend once told me: "learn from my mistakes, you are too old to make them all yourself." 

Nothing takes the place of experience, but if we wait around until we are experienced before we try to walk or talk, then we are paralyzed already.


----------



## robk

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Repeating what you read on a forum as opposed to going out and understanding what the words mean is never a good thing. Even if your a forum veteren..


Glowingtoadfly was just summarizing what she/he took from this thread. If that is not appropriate, why do we even have this forum?


----------



## robk

I am starting to get the impression that unless you have been working with dogs long enough to actually have known Max v. Stephanitz, then any comments outside of "cute puppy" are not welcome on this forum.


----------



## G-burg

> Glowingtoadfly was just summarizing what she/he took from this thread. If that is not appropriate, why do we even have this forum?


 For entertainment purposes obviously! :help:

Oh God, here goes... "I" think titles are an important part of deciding whether a dog is breed worthy or not.. BUT, it's only one piece of the puzzle!! The ultimate test lies in the breeders honesty with themselves and their dogs, the experience they have with their lines and what the breed in general is about. I know quite a few breeders that have washed dogs from their breeding program because they were honest with what they saw in a particular dog and didn't like it, not that the dogs were bad, just not breed-worthy.. Sure they could have easily bred the animal to make a buck.. Which seems to be the way it is with a lot of people.. The money becomes the motivating factor and they lose sight of what is really important.

I've learned over the years, you got to get out there and actually see the dogs in action, met the owners and the breeders and see if it's something that you really like and would be a good fit for you.. 

The breeders that appeal to "me" are the ones that are the small hobby breeders and producing only one or two litters a year.


----------



## Dainerra

onyx'girl said:


> The IPO FB page was requesting that any posters put their titles at the end of their post to prove their credentials. Didn't go over well, but I could see the point in the request. At least it didn't ask to post the failed trials or scorebook info.


many of the obedience groups require you to do this as well. If you don't put it on the end of every comment, your post can be deleted.


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> The IPO FB page was requesting that any posters put their titles at the end of their post to prove their credentials. Didn't go over well, but I could see the point in the request. At least it didn't ask to post the failed trials or scorebook info.


Yes but getting a title as a handler doesn't mean you know more than someone who hasn't. There are plenty of folks who had a TD and good helper hold there hand the whole way and are responsible for much of their success, and there folks who achieve a title with little to no outside help. 

I know several helpers who don't even have a dog to handle and some who have never titled a dog that I'd wager know more than 99.99% of handlers


----------



## onyx'girl

hunterisgreat said:


> Yes but getting a title as a handler doesn't mean you know more than someone who hasn't. There are plenty of folks who had a TD and good helper hold there hand the whole way and are responsible for much of their success, and there folks who achieve a title with little to no outside help.
> 
> I know several helpers who don't even have a dog to handle and some who have never titled a dog that I'd wager know more than 99.99% of handlers


I agree, that's why it was a bit silly to ask for credentials.


----------



## onyx'girl

G-burg said:


> For entertainment purposes obviously! :help:
> 
> Oh God, here goes... "I" think titles are an important part of deciding whether a dog is breed worthy or not.. BUT, it's only one piece of the puzzle!! The ultimate test lies in the breeders honesty with themselves and their dogs, the experience they have with their lines and what the breed in general is about. I know quite a few breeders that have washed dogs from their breeding program because they were honest with what they saw in a particular dog and didn't like it, not that the dogs were bad, just not breed-worthy.. Sure they could have easily bred the animal to make a buck.. Which seems to be the way it is with a lot of people.. The money becomes the motivating factor and they lose sight of what is really important.
> 
> I've learned over the years, you got to get out there and actually see the dogs in action, met the owners and the breeders and see if it's something that you really like and would be a good fit for you..
> 
> The breeders that appeal to "me" are the ones that are the small hobby breeders and producing only one or two litters a year.


:toasting:


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

robk said:


> Glowingtoadfly was just summarizing what she/he took from this thread. If that is not appropriate, why do we even have this forum?



In some cases forums are clearly not going to help. Read some of the posts on here by the veterans...lol.


----------



## mycobraracr

hunterisgreat said:


> Yes but getting a title as a handler doesn't mean you know more than someone who hasn't. There are plenty of folks who had a TD and good helper hold there hand the whole way and are responsible for much of their success, and there folks who achieve a title with little to no outside help.
> 
> I know several helpers who don't even have a dog to handle and some who have never titled a dog that I'd wager know more than 99.99% of handlers



Yes!!! I was just having this conversation with someone. I was trying to figure out how some people have titled multiple dogs yet still have no clue about what's going on or how to read a dog. Or their own dog for that matter.


----------



## martemchik

G-burg said:


> For entertainment purposes obviously! :help:
> 
> Oh God, here goes... "I" think titles are an important part of deciding whether a dog is breed worthy or not.. BUT, it's only one piece of the puzzle!! The ultimate test lies in the breeders honesty with themselves and their dogs, the experience they have with their lines and what the breed in general is about. I know quite a few breeders that have washed dogs from their breeding program because they were honest with what they saw in a particular dog and didn't like it, not that the dogs were bad, just not breed-worthy.. Sure they could have easily bred the animal to make a buck.. Which seems to be the way it is with a lot of people.. The money becomes the motivating factor and they lose sight of what is really important.
> 
> I've learned over the years, you got to get out there and actually see the dogs in action, met the owners and the breeders and see if it's something that you really like and would be a good fit for you..
> 
> The breeders that appeal to "me" are the ones that are the small hobby breeders and producing only one or two litters a year.


Love this, and that's exactly what you want out of a breeder. But unfortunately there are too many out there that will push a dog through because the pedigree says something different than what they're seeing out of a dog, or because they've paid big money already for the dog so they will get puppies out of it no matter what. For the newbie...tough to tell who is who.

But another point is...that you need to be doing a sport where "washing out" is even possible, or tests your dog enough that the "average" dog doesn't just breeze through it. That's why IPO or SAR or that type of work shows what the dog has more than just your average GSD. A weak nerved dog can easily be conditioned to get a rally title, CGC, or even CD. But its extremely difficult to condition a dog with weak nerves to title through in IPO, and I can't imagine a weak nerved dog ever being successful in SAR.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

My breeder actually just washed a dog from her SAR program...


----------



## holland

Off topic I suppose but the people I have enjoyed training with haven't always been the people who have titled the most dogs-or maybe they have and they just don't feel the need to talk about it all the time


----------



## glowingtoadfly

holland said:


> Off topic I suppose but the people I have enjoyed training with haven't always been the people who have titled the most dogs-or maybe they have and they just don't feel the need to talk about it all the time


. I definitely agree.


----------



## Blanketback

David Winners said:


> I haven't been getting as involved in the board lately for just these reasons. I still read most threads and comment from time to time, but it's not worth getting involved...


This is exactly what I'm worried about. I've only been here for 2 years, but there's been some great members who've stopped posting in that short amount of time. When I go back to read the much older threads, I see even more people with great experience, adding to discussions, giving insight to the breed - where are they? It's not to anyone's advantage to run them off. Unless you want this forum to be all about puppy pictures?


----------



## mycobraracr

Blanketback said:


> Unless you want this forum to be all about puppy pictures?


That's basically all it is now days except for the occasional thread like the "Prey Monkeys" thread.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sometimes I wish I hadn't asked questions, or said a word about my opinions, and had just posted puppy pictures...Then I remember that I found someone to train with through this site...


----------



## martemchik

glowingtoadfly said:


> Sometimes I wish I hadn't asked questions, or said a word about my opinions, and had just posted puppy pictures...Then I remember that I found someone to train with through this site...


Why? This has been an awesome thread! I think 99% of people enjoyed the conversations that went on and the information that was shared. I don't think a question like the one you asked needs a definite answer. I think we got a lot of differing opinion out there from a wide variety of people and its been very enlightening.

Generally...if a thread gets to like 30 pages. It's usually a huge downhill slide and gets closed up because someone starts swearing at someone or calling someone else names.


----------



## Blanketback

It's actually a very very good thing to have people new to the breed ask questions, because when you get everyone involved in answering then you can see all the different perspectives. Nothing is ever simple, with a perfect answer, unless it's basic math 1+1 stuff, lol.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blanketback said:


> This is exactly what I'm worried about. I've only been here for 2 years, but there's been some great members who've stopped posting in that short amount of time. When I go back to read the much older threads, I see even more people with great experience, adding to discussions, giving insight to the breed - where are they? It's not to anyone's advantage to run them off. Unless you want this forum to be all about puppy pictures?


Go read Bailiff's threads. He teaches us how not to do stuff with humor, he posts amazing videos and his posts are fun to read. There is still a lot of good to be learned from this site. You just have to look for it.


----------



## Blanketback

I love Bailiff's post too, but even if this board had 100 just like him, that's not filling the void left by people like Cliff, et al. I'm selfish, and I want those contributions, lol. Like with dog training and its history: it's not only 'William Koehler vs. Paul Owens' to me - I just got a book written by someone who started training in 1870, back when the issue was _breaking_ vs. _training_, and this trainer is all about positive motivational learning. It's very cool! And it proves that humans enjoy reinventing the wheel, lol. History is important, let's not willingly give it up.


----------



## lhczth

hunterisgreat said:


> Yes but getting a title as a handler doesn't mean you know more than someone who hasn't. There are plenty of folks who had a TD and good helper hold there hand the whole way and are responsible for much of their success, and there folks who achieve a title with little to no outside help.


LOL Have a club member like that. Has taken two dogs to SchH3 and is still clueless.


----------



## RocketDog

lhczth said:


> LOL Have a club member like that. Has taken two dogs to SchH3 and is still clueless.



How is that even possible?!


----------



## Merciel

RocketDog said:


> How is that even possible?!


Yeah I want to know this too. Somebody sit down and give me story time on that one.


----------



## lhczth

Because they worked with a TD that totally controlled their training program before they started training with us. They are now making the effort to try to think for themselves.


----------



## RocketDog

Good for them. That kind of makes me sad.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

martemchik said:


> Why? This has been an awesome thread! I think 99% of people enjoyed the conversations that went on and the information that was shared. I don't think a question like the one you asked needs a definite answer. I think we got a lot of differing opinion out there from a wide variety of people and its been very enlightening.
> 
> Generally...if a thread gets to like 30 pages. It's usually a huge downhill slide and gets closed up because someone starts swearing at someone or calling someone else names.


This thread has been very informative, it did go a bit downhill for a bit, but overall it has been great.


----------



## Sabis mom

robk said:


> I am starting to get the impression that unless you have been working with dogs long enough to actually have known Max v. Stephanitz, then any comments outside of "cute puppy" are not welcome on this forum.


I was getting the same vibe. Oh well.

Titles are great, titles are awesome. However most titles take place in a controlled environment, MOST. Then there are the dogs that get up and go to work every day. The ones who will never have their names on trophies, who's handlers will never smile pretty for the camera. And I can tell you right now that working a dog every day will tell you a heck of a lot more. Lots of working dogs may not be breedworthy, Sabi wasn't, but it certainly wasn't for lack of a title. 
Titles, pedigree, breeder or lack of all of the above, all become irrelevant when your dog is the only one watching your back. Put your hands on a dog that has saved your life and tell me how important a title is.


----------



## ndirishfan1975

martemchik said:


> You're not your average American pet home. You do more with your dog in a week than most people do over the life of a dog. 99% of people on this forum are way above what the average American home is. So anyone that thinks that just because they're not titling/showing (which you are) it makes them a pet home, it doesn't. Many people here are training way more, giving way more exercise, and care way more about what their dog is doing than the average American.


I disagree with this. I know tons of people that love their dogs and give them tons of exercise and don't show or title their dogs. Walks/runs, playing ball, playing outside with the kids...these are all common activities in many dog homes. At least in pet homes that I know of with larger dogs.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sabis mom said:


> I was getting the same vibe. Oh well.
> 
> Titles are great, titles are awesome. However most titles take place in a controlled environment, MOST. Then there are the dogs that get up and go to work every day. The ones who will never have their names on trophies, who's handlers will never smile pretty for the camera. And I can tell you right now that working a dog every day will tell you a heck of a lot more. Lots of working dogs may not be breedworthy, Sabi wasn't, but it certainly wasn't for lack of a title.
> Titles, pedigree, breeder or lack of all of the above, all become irrelevant when your dog is the only one watching your back. Put your hands on a dog that has saved your life and tell me how important a title is.


 I think this is a valid point.


----------



## Andaka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Ipo 3 hot?


Ch/UD etc B/HOT?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Andaka said:


> Ch/UD etc B/HOT?


lol


----------



## carmspack

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/251529-titles-m.html


----------



## hunterisgreat

Merciel said:


> Yeah I want to know this too. Somebody sit down and give me story time on that one.


Some clubs you show up and do as you're told and you will title. Some clubs you are really on your own, either b/c the club is an association of convenience for folks to trial and compete, or because no one is in a position to offer advice or assistance lol


----------



## ayoitzrimz

I've seen that as well, although for clubs that meet once a week it is VERY hard for an individual to be successful since you absolutely CANNOT get to IPO1,2,3 levels without training almost daily. So these people do work at home, and if they are making progress at least they aren't screwing the dog up.

They might not have a training plan in their head, and might need guidance in problem solving but you absolutely cannot teach timing, and making things clear in the dog's head. 

My experience has been that the people you are all referring to eventually drop off and never really get anywhere. Unless someone literally handles the dog for you every single time, but I find that whole idea absolutely ridiculous unless you have a physical limitation.

EDIT: with the exception of protection phase which is usually done with the helper there and usually the TD as well. I've seen people who are absolutely clueless when it comes to handling. The only phase their dog is successful is, is protection since the TD handles him. I think you will find the handler's lacking most apparent in tracking since you really need to UNDERSTAND tracking and not just follow orders. I think. That is my guess, but I have no evidence to prove it but what I see is handlers doing well in OB and great in PR since their TD/helper has held their hand the whole way totally bomb in tracking when they have to lay the track out such that the track teaches the dog and not the handler. On top of that they make a ton of mistakes. Tracking is IMO the most ... delicate ... phase and you can really tell who is "getting it" and who isn't. Tracking seems to me the most "individual" aspect of the sport.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

Sorry, too late to post (mods feel free to merge these):


ayoitzrimz said:


> They might not have a training plan in their head, and might need guidance in problem solving but you absolutely cannot teach timing, and making things clear in the dog's head.


Should be:
They might not have a training plan in their head, and might need guidance in problem solving but you absolutely cannot teach timing, consistency, leadership, and making things clear in the dog's head.


----------



## hunterisgreat

ayoitzrimz said:


> Sorry, too late to post (mods feel free to merge these):
> 
> Should be:
> They might not have a training plan in their head, and might need guidance in problem solving but you absolutely cannot teach timing, consistency, leadership, and making things clear in the dog's head.


I agree to a point, but you can show folks how those elements are being done poorly, and how to improve. I've seen folks who were horrid improve dramatically, and seen folks who were horrid and are still horrid lol


----------



## Merciel

Thanks for the explanations, guys. As ever, I appreciate them.


----------



## ayoitzrimz

hunterisgreat said:


> I agree to a point, but you can show folks how those elements are being done poorly, and how to improve. I've seen folks who were horrid improve dramatically, and seen folks who were horrid and are still horrid lol


I hear you dude, some people are a lost cause. Not their fault, and doesn't mean they are "lesser" people. Surely there are other things they can be good at. Dog training is just not one of them. Some people take a long time to *click* while others' will never ever "get it". As for those who improve when you show them how they are doing things worse - those are EXACTLY the type of people I would want to work with.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> lol


To go with Merciel's analogy-I like locally made chocolate


----------



## David Winners

IMO, if the breeder is training and testing their dogs appropriately, the title is not necessary. If the breeder knows the dog has what they want in their program, along with the experience to make this decision about what it is they see in the dog/pedigree, then the title is moot.

It all comes down to trusting the breeder though.

from: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/433865-why-do-some-breeders-not-use-titled-females.html#post5326993


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Thanks David! I agree.


----------



## onyx'girl

David Winners said:


> IMO, if the breeder is training and testing their dogs appropriately, the title is not necessary. If the breeder knows the dog has what they want in their program, along with the experience to make this decision about what it is they see in the dog/pedigree, then the title is moot.
> 
> It all comes down to trusting the breeder though.
> 
> from: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/433865-why-do-some-breeders-not-use-titled-females.html#post5326993


But the buyer needs to understand the appropriateness or a breeder can just give them a song and dance. If the dog is never tested off their property or put thru some stress or pressure, how can the buyer decipher what is appropriate? 
It is up to the buyer to do their research and know what the breeders focus and goals are in their program....what they've produced in the past and if those goals are being achieved.
I have heard many excuses from breeders who are breeding dogs with the minimum or no titles. 
I'd rather not support those excuses and go with a breeder that is working, sweating and putting effort into their program to prove the focus and goals.


----------



## lhczth

No title makes a dog breed worthy. What they do is "keep us honest". What I mean by that is that it puts the dog out there for others, judges and the public, to see and evaluate. 

While I agree with David, MOST breeders have neither the knowledge nor the experience. 

In the USA, though, all of this is moot. Breeders can do as they want.


----------



## Sabis mom

While searching for my next puppy I stumbled across a bitch that I fell in love with. She was well titled, imported from a well known kennel. When I was conversing with the breeder I happened to mention that I liked her. The breeders response was that she was a great bitch, awesome to work and delightful at home, but sadly she produces rather erratically. She commented that although she has a stunning pedigree herself, a breeding that should have produced amazing pups, produced nothing more then pet quality at best. Yet a breeding with a full sister and the same stud produced awesome pups. Genetics, one must remember that something from generations back may rear it's head at any time. A good breeder can stack the deck, but nothing is guaranteed.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

lhczth said:


> No title makes a dog breed worthy. What they do is "keep us honest". What I mean by that is that it puts the dog out there for others, judges and the public, to see and evaluate.
> 
> While I agree with David, MOST breeders have neither the knowledge nor the experience.
> 
> In the USA, though, all of this is moot. Breeders can do as they want.


I don't think it is moot to a good breeder.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Lisa, I almost kind of sort of agree with you. IF I planned on breeding I'd be doing some sort of titling or performance activity just to meet with & learn from other knowledgeable people out there. HOWEVER a glance at the conformation rings convinces me that judges & the public are some ghastly combination of stupid, indifferent & INSANE. In various breeds noses have disappeared, gross obesity reigns, coats are so abundant they require hours for routine grooming, bizarre wrinkling compromises skin & even vision, legs aren't merely short, they're twisted, bowed & splayed and too often temperaments range from cringinging piddlers to snarling, snappy curs. Irish Wolfhounds & Great Danes don't routinely display any of these conforamtion/temperament problems-Yayyy-Ooops! they have a tendency to die at 5 or 6, sometimes even younger. Ditto show line Goldens & Boxers.

You can convince me (& fairly easily) that these experts know a great deal more than I do BUT why oh WHY aren't they using it to breed sound, healthy, long lived dogs????? IF all that they know doesn't follow through on what they DO, what they PRODUCE, then what good is it really?

I'm not opposed to titles. In fact, I'd look for sports titled dogs if I planned to participate in those events, but until I'm convinced that titles will help me get the dogs I want, I'm not particularly interested in them. They can indeed say 'something' but alternatively they can hide a great deal as well, much like health clearances, which give one a valuable peek into the dog, but it's still only a peek. Only the lazy &/or uninformed would settle for a mere glance.


----------



## martemchik

A lot of people build up reputations and become "untouchable." You can see this happen on the forum as well. People just entering the world, or even people just purchasing puppies are led to those types of people and no one asks questions. No one dares to challenge, if they do challenge, they themselves get attacked, or even extradited from the world by those that have been doing it for years. And without those contacts, its quite hard to make a name for yourself.

I've seen it happen in real life, and plenty of times on this forum. Anyone that is "new" gets told to get a "good mentor." Well...how is one supposed to know what a good mentor is if they don't even know what to look for? But say they find a mentor, that's doing something "questionable" and they learn that that's the way to do it, well they're going to do it that way and when 10 years later some new person questions it, they're going to respond with, "I've been doing this for 10 years! What do you know?" And the cycle continues...

Ruby, your last line..."only the lazy &/or uninformed would settle for a mere glance," is exactly the problem. 99% of the market for dogs is just that...and any "breeder" (knowledgeable or just money hungry) can realize that and take advantage.


----------



## cliffson1

A reputation is only as good as the dogs and results that come with it. It is very difficult for the new by these days, but individuals with reputations must have the dogs/knowledge/training to merit the reputation. Now that is hard for the newby to determine, I admit, but people who are consistently producing and training very good dogs have results to sustain their reputation. I think that people who have read this forum for years intuitively know who is knowledgable about the breed....not because of " who" they are, but because of the content of their posts. I may not like a person's delivery of information, but I would never allow myself to discount quality information because of my likes or their style. 
It's the same with breeding titled or untitled dogs, there are people who can breed quality animals without the titles, there are people who are breeding poorly with super titles on the dog. The difference is the marketing of the dogs bred to the public. It is much easier with the titles, but at the end of the day every dog has to stand on what it is, and if it is a quality dog my opinion or nobody else's changes that, and if it is a dog lacking the qualities of the breed, no opinion is going to make it better.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I must exonerate my dog's former owner, who I have been in contact with. My girl was not undersocialized. She was just a bear of an adolescent.


----------

