# Heeling Help!!



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I've been having some issues with Aiden's heeling. I'm not sure if it's just be being overly critical or not, so I'd like some input please! 

My problem is that Aiden has recently started "faking" the look command. From a stand still, he can hold the look for any length of time, and earlier in his training when I was baiting him with food and then gradually fading out my hand, it worked as well. The trouble now is that when given the command, as I step forward with my left, his head drops slightly and I lose eye contact. His head is still slightly raised and turned in towards me, but it's almost like he's targeting my right shoulder rather than my face. He will heel an entire obedience routine with that head set. From any outsiders point of view, it looks like he's showing attention to me, but it's not flashy and prancy because his head isn't really lifted up. I have never given him a reward for heeling on my right side, so I don't know why he'd target my right shoulder. It's almost like he's avoiding the eye contact. He looks extremely uncomfortable when he does it.

I know the rules are changing soon for IPO and that attention in heeling isn't as strict, so I'm not sure if I should keep hammering down on Aiden for this. I've been told by some people to just reward for the head position, because it's not like anyone else can see that he's actually "faking". I've been told by others to start back at the beginning with baiting him again. He's now 2.5 years old, so I really want to start cracking down on some consistency for his sake. 

Thanks all!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

How did you train your heeling and what are you doing while heeling? (ie, using a lure/reward, praising him, talking him up, prong correction, e-collar, etc)


----------



## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

is he in correct position otherwise? No forging or lagging?


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liesje said:


> How did you train your heeling and what are you doing while heeling? (ie, using a lure/reward, praising him, talking him up, prong correction, e-collar, etc)


As far as obedience goes, he isnt motivated for much. He's sooo handler sensitive and avoidant of doing things he doesn't want to do, so he looks like he really hates heeling from my angle. I do bait him with food when I can get him interested in it. He likes to tug more, so I will also use that when I need to. The food gets his head into the correct position better than the tug, but neither last longer than a few steps. If I remove the tug or food from over his head, he does the "fake" head position, but his head is slightly lowered. I talk him up ALOT because he honestly works better for my praise than anything. I use a prong, but have yet to use a hard correction because he is so avoidant of pressure. i just kinda jingle it to keep his attention when I need to.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Have your tried holding the reward under your left armpit or spitting food? If you go to spitting food at him, the reward comes from your face, and it might work better to show him that is where he is supposed to look. 

If it were me, I wouldn't sweat the head position that much as long as his position was correct and consistent.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

ShatteringGlass said:


> is he in correct position otherwise? No forging or lagging?


He stays perfectly straight and with me the entire time. Never forges and only lags on turns (which we are working on ). My training buddies all say that he looks fine and attentive from where they are standing, but it's just not that nice, flashy prancing heel that I love. His obedience is very strong otherwise and I really just want to make sure that we are going to get a good score even without the flashy heeling that we have as of now. 

I'm also a pretty overly critical mommy, so who knows!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Have your tried holding the reward under your left armpit or spitting food? If you go to spitting food at him, the reward comes from your face, and it might work better to show him that is where he is supposed to look.
> 
> If it were me, I wouldn't sweat the head position that much as long as his position was correct and consistent.


 
I said above that he's not too motivated for anything other than praise at this point. I have put the tug under my armpit and that works for a few steps. I have not tried the food spitting yet though. I'll have to buy some cheese or something and give it a shot!

I'm getting to the point where I think it might be alot less stressful for him if I just accept his head position, and in the long run he might get more comfortable with heeling and then his head might come up a little..UGH very stressful stuff.


----------



## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Personally, I prefer correct position over flashy. Flashy is nice if you can get it WITH correct position (no forging) but not at the sacrifice of the dog being in the correct heel position. I dislike heeling where the dog is forging or wrapping so badly because it was trained with too much emphasis on eye contact rather than correct position (dogs withers in line with the handler's thigh/leg).


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree, not all dogs are going to be like that no matter how you train. My dog is kind of like what you describe. He stays right w/ me but is not prancy. He got High Obedience at his SchH trial, not a perfect score but the heeling was not the problem either. I think a lot of flash and prance comes from how the dog was trained initially in its foundation, so if it's not there and never was, and the dog is just not that kind of dog, I would focus my efforts elsewhere and reward correct position. Attention does not have to be unwavering eye contact as long as the dog reacts to your pace changes and turns.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks for the reassurance! That's what my gut was telling me, but being a first time Schutzhund-er, I wasn't sure. =P


----------



## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

Prancy/flashy comes from temperament and drive..you say your dog is not so motivated, so you won't get that excitement that you'd have if he loved the reward more. I'd bet you'll do well with what you've got, and it would be MUCH less stressful for you and your dog if you can be happy with that. It would be interesting to see if your acceptance eliminates some residual stress from your dog.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

justde said:


> Prancy/flashy comes from temperament and drive..you say your dog is not so motivated, so you won't get that excitement that you'd have if he loved the reward more. I'd bet you'll do well with what you've got, and it would be MUCH less stressful for you and your dog if you can be happy with that. It would be interesting to see if your acceptance eliminates some residual stress from your dog.


I'll keep you posted on our progress!


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I know the rules are changing soon for IPO and that attention in heeling isn't as strict, so I'm not sure if I should keep hammering down on Aiden for this. I've been told by some people to just reward for the head position, because it's not like anyone else can see that he's actually "faking". I've been told by others to start back at the beginning with baiting him again. He's now 2.5 years old, so I really want to start cracking down on some consistency for his sake.
> 
> Thanks all!


 I don't know who told you that the new rules are not so strict in attention during heeling....Not attentive will absolutely effect your score... It depends on what your specific goals are. 

Here are some excerpts from Judges meeting....

*Attention has to be paid that a happy work ethic is also synonomous with the correct execution so that the appropriate award is given.*

*Without continuous attention and a “free willingness performance”**, a “V” rating will not be possible.*

*Correct heeling is a happy and attentive, "focused" dog that moves with the Handler in the correct position , parallel to the handler with the shoulder in line with the handlers knee and not bouncing or jumping. Prancing or bouncing is determined by the movement of the topline, not by the way the dog throws there legs out in movement. It is faulty if the topline (back) is bouncing up and down excessively)
* 

Hope this helps


Frank


----------



## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

But is continuous attention synonymous with continuous eye contact? And I guess what I was trying to say is although we train for V, we must be realistic about whether our dog and it's handler are truly capable of a V in some exercises. Not to criticize or encourage anyone to strive for less, but sometimes more problems are created by trying to gain more than possible, including making someone discouraged with the sport. I hope I'm relaying my thoughts properly 
Sue


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have a bowwowflix account? Bridget Carlsen has a few dvds(got attitude?) that help with the focused/happy heeling. I would skip the first one in the set and go on to the 2nd one. Worth checking out for another perspective on training it.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

schh3fh2 said:


> I don't know who told you that the new rules are not so strict in attention during heeling....Not attentive will absolutely effect your score... It depends on what your specific goals are.
> 
> Here are some excerpts from Judges meeting....
> 
> ...


The USA website put up the new rules in a powerpoint slideshow and it says there:
"Heeling shall be normal movement or gait. Prancing or bouncing is not correct."

That's what I was referring to. I was told by a judge that a "V" rating will not be given if the dog is prancing or bouncing. My dog moves with me and is attentive to me, just does not give direct eye contact or have a flashy heel. When I said less "strict" heeling, I meant that the flashy prancy, bouncy heel isn't going to be receiving a V rating anymore, so what I have been accepting in my heeling should actually be perfectly acceptable to a judge, according to the new rules.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Do you have a bowwowflix account? Bridget Carlsen has a few dvds(got attitude?) that help with the focused/happy heeling. I would skip the first one in the set and go on to the 2nd one. Worth checking out for another perspective on training it.


I do not have an account but I will definitely look into that! Thanks!


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> The USA website put up the new rules in a powerpoint slideshow and it says there:
> "Heeling shall be normal movement or gait. Prancing or bouncing is not correct."
> 
> That's what I was referring to. I was told by a judge that a "V" rating will not be given if the dog is prancing or bouncing. My dog moves with me and is attentive to me, just does not give direct eye contact or have a flashy heel. When I said less "strict" heeling, I meant that the flashy prancy, bouncy heel isn't going to be receiving a V rating anymore, so what I have been accepting in my heeling should actually be perfectly acceptable to a judge, according to the new rules.


My quote came from that presentation also....Correct heeling is attentive and focus to the handler....I would not say by any means that heeling will be judged less strict. The clearification of "prancing or bouncing" was what I posted...it is about the movement of the topline not the way the the dog throws out his/her front feet....If anything, the judging on heeling is getting MORE strict.

You said "so what I have been accepting in my heeling should actually be perfectly acceptable to a judge, according to the new rules"

I can not see your heeling, if you want to post a video I can tell you if it is "perfectly acceptable" or not. But if you dog is not completely attentive to you with focus then there will be a point deduction.

Frank


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

"Topline" issues ... Ike got them! 

Thanks for the excellent explanation, Frank!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

schh3fh2 said:


> I can not see your heeling, if you want to post a video I can tell you if it is "perfectly acceptable" or not. But if you dog is not completely attentive to you with focus then there will be a point deduction.
> 
> Frank


Thanks! I'll try and see if I can get some help taking some videos today when we go out for training. Luckily for me, I think it started snowing this morning. 

As far as my dog's heeling goes, would the fact that he mostly doesn't kick his feet out and just stays with me and has his head turned in, affect his points?


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> As far as my dog's heeling goes, would the fact that he mostly doesn't kick his feet out and just stays with me and has his head turned in, affect his points?


 He does not have to kick his feet out. But he must look happy and free in his heeling. Head turned in but down not up is not really showing focus to handler and a good attitude for me.....But I would have to see it to be sure we are talking about the same thing....

Frank


----------

