# potential puppy found pedigree question



## loui

hello everyone new to the group and to the breed we've decided to get a gsd most of the dogs I have met are extremely smart and loyal so with two babies I think it was time to add one of these beautiful puppies into our home. we plan on doing advanced personal protection we have found a litter but since I am new to the breed I dont really know if the pedigree is "worthy" or "respectable" any help would be greatly appreciated we have narrowed it down to these two puppies from the same litter both males 

pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.planned?litter=9678&fbclid=IwAR2rLRZ0Zifuves54pVKrEZqcDC0H4ssC7IYRZThB4QN9XyH_QzCb5sEKNI


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## tim_s_adams

Hi, and welcome to the forum! 

I'm certainly no pedigree expert, by any stretch. But if you really want an "advanced personal protection" dog, I think you'd want to see some indication of that type of ability in the puppy's recent lineage. Most of these puppies' ancestors are untitled in anything.

Of course, as a first time owner, make sure you KNOW what you're signing up for! Your average GSD is a pretty good deterrent, without any PP training!

But a trained PP dog, like LE dogs, need ongoing training. And it will probably require special insurance, depending on where you're located. 

Go out and find a breeder who has actually produced dogs that have been trained in personal protection, and been successful. Your chances with the litter you posted, IMHO, are not so good...


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## Chip Blasiole

Can you make the link live? Any idea who you will use to do PP training? I ask because you sound very green and you need the right dog and a very good trainer, which is not such an easy task.


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## CometDog

While they may be excellent dogs, there is not enough health information or titling in the pedigree to make an educated guess. I'd pass. There are some fast normal hips and noch zuglassen which normally would not bother me if not for the frequent absence of any hip rating at all noted in a lot of the progeny. I am not a pedigree expert but I do know enough that while I recognize some kennel names back in what will be the pup's 3rd and 4th generation, it looks to me like a mish mash after that. 

I am not sure with the forum's new format, but there should be a section here to ask for breeder recommendations. Post your ideas of what you want to do with a dog, your location (dont rule out shipping) and then go from there.


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## CometDog

Chip Blasiole said:


> Can you make the link live? Any idea who you will use to do PP training? I ask because you sound very green and you need the right dog and a very good trainer, which is not such an easy task.








Planned litter: Litter b







www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Chip Blasiole

Thanks for the live link. I would not choose from this breeding for a potential PP dog. What are you expectations of an advanced PP dog? Usually, such a dog is not for a novice handler. Realistically, a PP dog essentially buys you time to get a gun.


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## loui

thanks guys for the replies I’m going to go ahead and pass up on this dog and look for a better proven working and health checked as advised, as suppose to owning a trained dog I have owned before I like to feel safe when I’m not around and my wife n kids go to the store you never know these days, not looking for a guard dog but Pp training


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## Steve Strom

loui said:


> hello everyone new to the group and to the breed we've decided to get a gsd most of the dogs I have met are extremely smart and loyal so with two babies I think it was time to add one of these beautiful puppies into our home. we plan on doing advanced personal protection we have found a litter but since I am new to the breed I dont really know if the pedigree is "worthy" or "respectable" any help would be greatly appreciated we have narrowed it down to these two puppies from the same litter both males
> 
> pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.planned?litter=9678&fbclid=IwAR2rLRZ0Zifuves54pVKrEZqcDC0H4ssC7IYRZThB4QN9XyH_QzCb5sEKNI


There's a few well known dogs and some not so well known dogs. Its possible someone could tell you something about Sasha 03 Sniper, but I think what you'd be better off focusing on is the 2 dogs being bred and the people breeding them. Are you sure those dogs are what you want and are you willing to put your trust in the people breeding them?

You posted while I was typing. Go out and see as many different dogs doing as many different things as you can, and meet people. I wouldn't worry about pedigrees just yet, get a better "in person" idea of what people and breeders mean by what they say about the actual dogs.


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## loui

Sounds good will do thanks again guys


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## Steve Strom

When I edited that, it was a little short. I know you said the dogs you've seen, you liked. If you're going to look for a dog to do something specific with, anything involving formal training to a task, especially involving bitework, you really want to see the dogs doing that and also as important, not doing it. Are they capable of what you want? Can you live with them the way you want? How does the breeder know what they're talking about?


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## Chip Blasiole

I think you made a good decisions to do more research. You said you are looking for a dog that allows you feel safe. That covers a look of ground and is very subjective. The PP dog markets target naive customers. I saw a "PP" GSD worked a little in bite work that a wealthy couple payed $100,000 dollars for. IMO, the dog, or any dog, is not worth $100,000. I was told by someone I train with that a person brought a GSD to him that the person payed $15,000 for and when my friend tested the dog, he failed the stake out test and went into avoidance. I payed $3,000 for a four month old GSD pup imported from Canada that did very well when tested on the stake out test. I doubt you are looking to pay in the $15,000-$100,000 range, but my point is to find someone who knows bloodlines and what they tend to produce and don't get sucked into the hype. With a PP dog, you want a dog that has very confident defensive aggression and that has more defensive aggression than prey drive. You also want rock solid nerves, a dog that is discerning and clear headed, and not a reactive dog. Confident defensive aggression is good, but you don't, IMO want a dog with a low defensive threshold that is going to go off and see most everything as a threat. That would be more of a guard dog.


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## loui

gotcha and I agree thank you guys for the input going to do more research and visit facilities


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## Springbrz

Personal Protection training is specific. While you are looking for that hopefully perfect pup to meet your needs be sure you start interviewing/researching trainers. Quality trainers for just family pets can be hard to find in many areas. Be a shame to find the right pup with good prospects only to discover there is no one close by to train said pup. This isn't training a novice can do themselves. You will need expert help. Good luck in your search!


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## loui

Thank you there is a school here in my area called cali k9 luckily, I'm in the Bay Area ca one of the best trainers around in my opinion and many would agree


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## CometDog

loui said:


> Thank you there is a school here in my area called cali k9 luckily, I'm in the Bay Area ca one of the best trainers around in my opinion and many would agree


I looked at their website. If I can be very honest, for what they are charging with their protection packages- instead, do a ton of research on a pedigree, pay 2k for a dog bred from stock that has proven that they can to do what you want your pup to eventually do, and go to a local IGP Club. Ask the people at the IGP club for good protection breeders/evaluators/trainers for what you want to do. If they recommend this place, great. Looking at their website, I doubt they would though. They have that modern "can do!" approach. Anything except for severe human aggression is a-ok with them, and they can fix it! Nah, if you want a protection dog, or a real dog in any sense, you need to go with the trainer who is going to tell you honesty what level your dog can genetically get to. Some of the best trainers will tell you exactly what you don't want to hear, and they wont take your money before doing it. Even with a top notch breeding a puppy may or may not live up to his predicted genetic potential. That is why people pay so much for an older dog that is either already trained or a young dog that is proving out to have the goods to handle the advanced training. 

Also, look into the ramifications of owning a dog officially trained to attack in Cali. If they bite someone who was not a threat, not officially trespassing, not provoking the dog, it is a felony. It's what is called a wobbler law. Misdemeanor if your dog bites someone and you didn't know they were capable of that, felony if you trained them to do so, and they bite someone who didn't deserve it. So if you want to go that route make sure you get the right dog and the right trainer for sure. Also look into insurance.

Sorry if everyone here is sounding cynical. Like you said you are new to the breed..a lot of people pitching in here have a lifetime of experience with the breed, and when it comes to "PPDs" you most often see it not work out or not be what the person was sold. Maybe because the success stories are also generally quiet about it lol If I was going to train a PPD as a civilian and family person, I'd have a well known private trainer and would not whisper it to a soul. 

Totally aside from everything else - I like your Camaro


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## Nscullin

Buy a glock. Get a dog that barks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nscullin

Nscullin said:


> Buy a glock. Get a dog that barks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All jokes aside, do what you’re comfortable with but getting charged with a felony bc someone on the street made a quick move, the collar pops off and your dog bites. Ehhhh, just not a risk I’d take. I guess they’d have to prove that your dog is trained to bite though. Idk how hard that would be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## atomic

My dogs granddam on the dams side is a littermate to Taylers Black Jack Dealer, he’s a mish mash of lines and not a protection dog but he IS a wonderful dog in general. Great temperament, athletic, healthy, affectionate and smart. I’m not telling you what you should do but I will say very few people need a serious protection dog, and these dogs are often unsuitable as pets. The mere image of a GSD is a very strong deterrent, there’s nobody that doesn’t associate them with being K9s and what they’re capable of. Even dog people are cautious of mine, he’s not ever aggressive but he watches and doesn’t seek attention from strangers. Also, if someone is really **** bent on going after you chances are they know you have a dog and are prepared to deal with it accordingly.


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## Sabis mom

For a change I agree with Chip. Lol
In most ways a true PPD needs to be the best of the best. They need to be rock solid. 
I'm not super smart but for whatever it's worth a pup with the right stuff is likely too much dog for you to raise, properly. Not trying to be mean but a PPD candidate with a newbie owner is probably going to take charge, then you have a problem. Unless you have a good trainer who can help you.
Look for a quality breeder, breeding to standard and go from there. A well bred GSD should show natural protection instinct anyway. Especially with children.


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## Jenny720

I agree with Sabis mom a good breeder should provide you with a pup with natural instinct protection. Higher thresholds clear heads are very important . You do not want a dog to react without thinking. All also mature differently. I had a dog who was police trained karat he was a phenomenal dog thinking back how little we actually knew he was a dog anyone can own. He had a high threshold. My now female Luna could go anywhere with any of my kids she is a good deterant and want her to go out with my daughter when she ventures out by herself. Max a bit more capable of being more forward and is watchful has kept me feeling very safe. We were out and someone tripped stumbled into us and stepped on Max’s paw. Max looked and intensely stared then watching this person trying to see what his intention was. An on looker could see this as well. As soon as the person was apologetic it put max at Right ease. - if I needed to say “leave it “that would of put max at ease as well. It again showed my how perceptive gsds are but yet they are dogs and need our guidance especially as young teenagers. Clear heads are a must in this great breed especially who like to use their teeth. Both are show lines by the way Luna wgsl and Max asl . I have two dogs and I got exactly what I was looking for in each dog reputable breeders are priceless.


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## loui

hello everyone new to the group and to the breed we've decided to get a gsd most of the dogs I have met are extremely smart and loyal so with two babies I think it was time to add one of these beautiful puppies into our home. we plan on doing advanced personal protection we have found a litter but since I am new to the breed I dont really know if the pedigree is "worthy" or "respectable" any help would be greatly appreciated we have narrowed it down to these two puppies from the same litter both males 

pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.planned?litter=9678&fbclid=IwAR2rLRZ0Zifuves54pVKrEZqcDC0H4ssC7IYRZThB4QN9XyH_QzCb5sEKNI


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## tim_s_adams

Hi, and welcome to the forum! 

I'm certainly no pedigree expert, by any stretch. But if you really want an "advanced personal protection" dog, I think you'd want to see some indication of that type of ability in the puppy's recent lineage. Most of these puppies' ancestors are untitled in anything.

Of course, as a first time owner, make sure you KNOW what you're signing up for! Your average GSD is a pretty good deterrent, without any PP training!

But a trained PP dog, like LE dogs, need ongoing training. And it will probably require special insurance, depending on where you're located. 

Go out and find a breeder who has actually produced dogs that have been trained in personal protection, and been successful. Your chances with the litter you posted, IMHO, are not so good...


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## Chip Blasiole

Can you make the link live? Any idea who you will use to do PP training? I ask because you sound very green and you need the right dog and a very good trainer, which is not such an easy task.


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## CometDog

While they may be excellent dogs, there is not enough health information or titling in the pedigree to make an educated guess. I'd pass. There are some fast normal hips and noch zuglassen which normally would not bother me if not for the frequent absence of any hip rating at all noted in a lot of the progeny. I am not a pedigree expert but I do know enough that while I recognize some kennel names back in what will be the pup's 3rd and 4th generation, it looks to me like a mish mash after that. 

I am not sure with the forum's new format, but there should be a section here to ask for breeder recommendations. Post your ideas of what you want to do with a dog, your location (dont rule out shipping) and then go from there.


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## CometDog

Chip Blasiole said:


> Can you make the link live? Any idea who you will use to do PP training? I ask because you sound very green and you need the right dog and a very good trainer, which is not such an easy task.








Planned litter: Litter b







www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Chip Blasiole

Thanks for the live link. I would not choose from this breeding for a potential PP dog. What are you expectations of an advanced PP dog? Usually, such a dog is not for a novice handler. Realistically, a PP dog essentially buys you time to get a gun.


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## loui

thanks guys for the replies I’m going to go ahead and pass up on this dog and look for a better proven working and health checked as advised, as suppose to owning a trained dog I have owned before I like to feel safe when I’m not around and my wife n kids go to the store you never know these days, not looking for a guard dog but Pp training


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## Steve Strom

loui said:


> hello everyone new to the group and to the breed we've decided to get a gsd most of the dogs I have met are extremely smart and loyal so with two babies I think it was time to add one of these beautiful puppies into our home. we plan on doing advanced personal protection we have found a litter but since I am new to the breed I dont really know if the pedigree is "worthy" or "respectable" any help would be greatly appreciated we have narrowed it down to these two puppies from the same litter both males
> 
> pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/breeding.planned?litter=9678&fbclid=IwAR2rLRZ0Zifuves54pVKrEZqcDC0H4ssC7IYRZThB4QN9XyH_QzCb5sEKNI


There's a few well known dogs and some not so well known dogs. Its possible someone could tell you something about Sasha 03 Sniper, but I think what you'd be better off focusing on is the 2 dogs being bred and the people breeding them. Are you sure those dogs are what you want and are you willing to put your trust in the people breeding them?

You posted while I was typing. Go out and see as many different dogs doing as many different things as you can, and meet people. I wouldn't worry about pedigrees just yet, get a better "in person" idea of what people and breeders mean by what they say about the actual dogs.


----------



## loui

Sounds good will do thanks again guys


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## Steve Strom

When I edited that, it was a little short. I know you said the dogs you've seen, you liked. If you're going to look for a dog to do something specific with, anything involving formal training to a task, especially involving bitework, you really want to see the dogs doing that and also as important, not doing it. Are they capable of what you want? Can you live with them the way you want? How does the breeder know what they're talking about?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

I think you made a good decisions to do more research. You said you are looking for a dog that allows you feel safe. That covers a look of ground and is very subjective. The PP dog markets target naive customers. I saw a "PP" GSD worked a little in bite work that a wealthy couple payed $100,000 dollars for. IMO, the dog, or any dog, is not worth $100,000. I was told by someone I train with that a person brought a GSD to him that the person payed $15,000 for and when my friend tested the dog, he failed the stake out test and went into avoidance. I payed $3,000 for a four month old GSD pup imported from Canada that did very well when tested on the stake out test. I doubt you are looking to pay in the $15,000-$100,000 range, but my point is to find someone who knows bloodlines and what they tend to produce and don't get sucked into the hype. With a PP dog, you want a dog that has very confident defensive aggression and that has more defensive aggression than prey drive. You also want rock solid nerves, a dog that is discerning and clear headed, and not a reactive dog. Confident defensive aggression is good, but you don't, IMO want a dog with a low defensive threshold that is going to go off and see most everything as a threat. That would be more of a guard dog.


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## loui

gotcha and I agree thank you guys for the input going to do more research and visit facilities


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## Springbrz

Personal Protection training is specific. While you are looking for that hopefully perfect pup to meet your needs be sure you start interviewing/researching trainers. Quality trainers for just family pets can be hard to find in many areas. Be a shame to find the right pup with good prospects only to discover there is no one close by to train said pup. This isn't training a novice can do themselves. You will need expert help. Good luck in your search!


----------



## loui

Thank you there is a school here in my area called cali k9 luckily, I'm in the Bay Area ca one of the best trainers around in my opinion and many would agree


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## CometDog

loui said:


> Thank you there is a school here in my area called cali k9 luckily, I'm in the Bay Area ca one of the best trainers around in my opinion and many would agree


I looked at their website. If I can be very honest, for what they are charging with their protection packages- instead, do a ton of research on a pedigree, pay 2k for a dog bred from stock that has proven that they can to do what you want your pup to eventually do, and go to a local IGP Club. Ask the people at the IGP club for good protection breeders/evaluators/trainers for what you want to do. If they recommend this place, great. Looking at their website, I doubt they would though. They have that modern "can do!" approach. Anything except for severe human aggression is a-ok with them, and they can fix it! Nah, if you want a protection dog, or a real dog in any sense, you need to go with the trainer who is going to tell you honesty what level your dog can genetically get to. Some of the best trainers will tell you exactly what you don't want to hear, and they wont take your money before doing it. Even with a top notch breeding a puppy may or may not live up to his predicted genetic potential. That is why people pay so much for an older dog that is either already trained or a young dog that is proving out to have the goods to handle the advanced training. 

Also, look into the ramifications of owning a dog officially trained to attack in Cali. If they bite someone who was not a threat, not officially trespassing, not provoking the dog, it is a felony. It's what is called a wobbler law. Misdemeanor if your dog bites someone and you didn't know they were capable of that, felony if you trained them to do so, and they bite someone who didn't deserve it. So if you want to go that route make sure you get the right dog and the right trainer for sure. Also look into insurance.

Sorry if everyone here is sounding cynical. Like you said you are new to the breed..a lot of people pitching in here have a lifetime of experience with the breed, and when it comes to "PPDs" you most often see it not work out or not be what the person was sold. Maybe because the success stories are also generally quiet about it lol If I was going to train a PPD as a civilian and family person, I'd have a well known private trainer and would not whisper it to a soul. 

Totally aside from everything else - I like your Camaro


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## Nscullin

Buy a glock. Get a dog that barks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nscullin

Nscullin said:


> Buy a glock. Get a dog that barks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All jokes aside, do what you’re comfortable with but getting charged with a felony bc someone on the street made a quick move, the collar pops off and your dog bites. Ehhhh, just not a risk I’d take. I guess they’d have to prove that your dog is trained to bite though. Idk how hard that would be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## atomic

My dogs granddam on the dams side is a littermate to Taylers Black Jack Dealer, he’s a mish mash of lines and not a protection dog but he IS a wonderful dog in general. Great temperament, athletic, healthy, affectionate and smart. I’m not telling you what you should do but I will say very few people need a serious protection dog, and these dogs are often unsuitable as pets. The mere image of a GSD is a very strong deterrent, there’s nobody that doesn’t associate them with being K9s and what they’re capable of. Even dog people are cautious of mine, he’s not ever aggressive but he watches and doesn’t seek attention from strangers. Also, if someone is really **** bent on going after you chances are they know you have a dog and are prepared to deal with it accordingly.


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## Sabis mom

For a change I agree with Chip. Lol
In most ways a true PPD needs to be the best of the best. They need to be rock solid. 
I'm not super smart but for whatever it's worth a pup with the right stuff is likely too much dog for you to raise, properly. Not trying to be mean but a PPD candidate with a newbie owner is probably going to take charge, then you have a problem. Unless you have a good trainer who can help you.
Look for a quality breeder, breeding to standard and go from there. A well bred GSD should show natural protection instinct anyway. Especially with children.


----------



## Jenny720

I agree with Sabis mom a good breeder should provide you with a pup with natural instinct protection. Higher thresholds clear heads are very important . You do not want a dog to react without thinking. All also mature differently. I had a dog who was police trained karat he was a phenomenal dog thinking back how little we actually knew he was a dog anyone can own. He had a high threshold. My now female Luna could go anywhere with any of my kids she is a good deterant and want her to go out with my daughter when she ventures out by herself. Max a bit more capable of being more forward and is watchful has kept me feeling very safe. We were out and someone tripped stumbled into us and stepped on Max’s paw. Max looked and intensely stared then watching this person trying to see what his intention was. An on looker could see this as well. As soon as the person was apologetic it put max at Right ease. - if I needed to say “leave it “that would of put max at ease as well. It again showed my how perceptive gsds are but yet they are dogs and need our guidance especially as young teenagers. Clear heads are a must in this great breed especially who like to use their teeth. Both are show lines by the way Luna wgsl and Max asl . I have two dogs and I got exactly what I was looking for in each dog reputable breeders are priceless.


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