# Aggressive when I correct other dog



## Zipties (Jun 30, 2015)

I have a spayed female that has been with me since puppyhood, and a neutered male that we adopted almost 2 years ago. They’re both around 4 years old. She is the dominant, and he is the submissive.

A few years ago, I had a problem with my female, Nismo, listening to me so I took her to a trainer. He talked me into Schutzhund training, even though I told him I couldn’t follow through and only wanted her to have better obedience. We did 6 lessons of mainly obedience with only touching on the tracking and protection, but apparently that was enough. Ever since I have noticed increased aggression but it’s not random, it’s almost like she’s helping me correct someone/animal. She does this with the male, if I notice him chewing on something he shouldn’t or even if I get up and walk toward him, she’ll jump up and nip his face/neck/ears. If I try to pull her off, she gets more aggressive and starts to growl/whine, so I usually try to correct her before she does it. Now that my daughter (just turned 1) is starting to get more mobile and in need of correction, she has shown a slight correction behavior towards her. No biting, but I can see where it may get there.

Has anyone experienced this before and have a method that worked for them? This has been going on for months and I can’t get her to stop.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You need to physically correct that behavior and not allow it to continue. It's never a good idea to allow a dog to do that.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Zipties said:


> I have a spayed female that has been with me since puppyhood, and a neutered male that we adopted almost 2 years ago. They’re both around 4 years old. She is the dominant, and he is the submissive.
> 
> A few years ago, I had a problem with my female, Nismo, listening to me so I took her to a trainer. He talked me into Schutzhund training, even though I told him I couldn’t follow through and only wanted her to have better obedience. We did 6 lessons of mainly obedience with only touching on the tracking and protection, but apparently that was enough. Ever since I have noticed increased aggression but it’s not random, it’s almost like she’s helping me correct someone/animal. She does this with the male, if I notice him chewing on something he shouldn’t or even if I get up and walk toward him, she’ll jump up and nip his face/neck/ears. If I try to pull her off, she gets more aggressive and starts to growl/whine, so I usually try to correct her before she does it. Now that my daughter (just turned 1) is starting to get more mobile and in need of correction, she has shown a slight correction behavior towards her. No biting, but I can see where it may get there.
> 
> Has anyone experienced this before and have a method that worked for them? This has been going on for months and I can’t get her to stop.


May I ask if you are a man or a woman? I have had this happen with two different dogs in the many years I have had GSDs, once with a very dominant wolf/shepherd I had, and now, with a current female rescue GSD. Yes, whenever another dog needs even a slight correction, they want to jump in and do it. With the wolfdog, I needed strength and fortitude, seriously, to stop the behavior. To a lesser degree, same with my current female. But they did both stop when they saw I wasn't going to stand for it. I am a woman, but have always been strong for my size, and it took a good, sharp physical correction to stop the behavior. A prong collar and a tab or leash on the offending dog would help you deliver a sharp correction, and you're going to have to deliver it *immediately*. You will have to be persistent and tenacious, and correct this behavior EVERY time it occurs. It didn't take long with mine, but I would also correct verbally, sharply, even if I saw the slightest hint that the offending dog was thinking about it--you can see it in their eyes, their ears, the forward inclination of their whole body just before it happens. It's much easier to stop it before it happens, than to deal with the act itself.

An e-collar, I am sure, could work easier, but get your trainer to help you with this, to teach you how to use it effectively.

Susan


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I kinda doubt it had anything to do with the schutzhund training. At the time, she was reaching maturity (she was around 2'ish correct?) and that's probably why her behavior switched. End result is the same: correct HER for correcting him.


----------



## Zipties (Jun 30, 2015)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> May I ask if you are a man or a woman? I have had this happen with two different dogs in the many years I have had GSDs, once with a very dominant wolf/shepherd I had, and now, with a current female rescue GSD. Yes, whenever another dog needs even a slight correction, they want to jump in and do it. With the wolfdog, I needed strength and fortitude, seriously, to stop the behavior. To a lesser degree, same with my current female. But they did both stop when they saw I wasn't going to stand for it. I am a woman, but have always been strong for my size, and it took a good, sharp physical correction to stop the behavior. A prong collar and a tab or leash on the offending dog would help you deliver a sharp correction, and you're going to have to deliver it *immediately*. You will have to be persistent and tenacious, and correct this behavior EVERY time it occurs. It didn't take long with mine, but I would also correct verbally, sharply, even if I saw the slightest hint that the offending dog was thinking about it--you can see it in their eyes, their ears, the forward inclination of their whole body just before it happens. It's much easier to stop it before it happens, than to deal with the act itself.
> 
> An e-collar, I am sure, could work easier, but get your trainer to help you with this, to teach you how to use it effectively.
> 
> Susan


I am a woman, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. The prong collar with tab is an excellent idea.. I do see it in her eyes and behavior, but I guess I haven't been strong enough with my corrections to her to stop it. She also nips at the male when he's coming in from being outside and I can tell by the way she looks at me, that she knows she's doing wrong but she just does it anyways. 

I'll give the prong collar a try as soon as she's healed up from her TPLO surgery. Thats a whole 'nother issue in itself.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm Ok just to a "small" point! It doesn't take strength to properly use a prong collar! If it does...your using it wrong!

Put a drag leash on the dog. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture. And if you have to give a correction, you pull the dog "sideways" throw him off balance! If you pull straight back on a "Prong Collar" you put drive "into" the dog not take it out! Kinda the way they work!


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm Ok just to a "small" point! It doesn't take strength to properly use a prong collar! If it does...your using it wrong!
> 
> Put a drag leash on the dog. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture. And if you have to give a correction, you pull the dog "sideways" throw him off balance! If you pull straight back on a "Prong Collar" you put drive "into" the dog not take it out! Kinda the way they work!


Well shoot Chip! I thought the prong had to be tightly fitted just behind the ears and just below the lower jaw ( a straight up and down for corrections). A drag leash with a prong???


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Well shoot Chip! I thought the prong had to be tightly fitted just behind the ears and just below the lower jaw ( a straight up and down for corrections). A drag leash with a prong???


Well to be clear the 'Prong Collar" for "this" was not my idea! The drag leash is!

Personally, I would use a drag leash with a flat collar. I don't see how you can be "gentle" with a drag leash and a prong collar myself?? But if it's going to be done...do it right! Pull the dog off balance, sideways not straight back!

I would imagine, if you have to grab that leash "real quick" it's gonna be a fairly harsh correction! Might as well get the basics right! Pretty sure if you do it with a "Prong Collar" properly...you won't have to do it again!!

Pros and IPO folks can chime in but I do know... pull straight back on a prong collar...most dogs say bring it on!


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm Ok just to a "small" point! It doesn't take strength to properly use a prong collar! If it does...your using it wrong!
> 
> Put a drag leash on the dog. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture. And if you have to give a correction, you pull the dog "sideways" throw him off balance! If you pull straight back on a "Prong Collar" you put drive "into" the dog not take it out! Kinda the way they work!


Yes, thanks Chip! You are right. At my age, I have dealt with large potentially aggressive dogs for decades, before I ever knew of the benefits of the prong. The first dog I had to correct on this was large and powerful, and it took strength. I had him in mind. And the sideways correction is absolutely right. Sometimes you take things for granted, so I didn't mention it.

Also, I didn't mean for the prong to be on the dog at all times. That's a no. I thought of the prong for the correction of the behavior because of its effect, a much more lasting impression than the same correction with a flat collar, for instance. My thought was to set the dog up and correct.

Susan


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We have a 6 year old chihuahua topper and a 8 month old german shepherd puppy max. When we brought max home at 8 weeks old it was a big adjustment for the chihuahua (and all) who had lost his best friend only a few months prior. Everytime I corrected max for chewing on somthing or trying to jump in the christmas tree, Topper the chihuahua, would run by my side and growl at max as to reinforce my correction. I had to stop this right away and let Topper know I am the boss and I have this and do not need any help. With their soon to be size difference it was a big concern. Toppers behavior stopped as I never let it get ahead of me. Topper didnt need much of a correction as he seemed to get the point and just needed a direction as to what was expected from him in this new situation. With advise on this thread and advise with a trainer this behavior cannot go on and needs to be stopped.


----------



## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

No real experience here but, I'm curious if you try a place command.. where before you correct a behavior you "place" her and make the correction.. then release? Maybe over time she will learn that you are in charge. This is ONLY when you initiate the correction right? Not her deciding he needs correction?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I's pack behavior. As soon as you see her tense up you body block her as it is YOUR job to take care of business.
I am worried about her behavior around your toddler though. That can quickly turn into a disaster, especially because you saw a "slight correction behavior". What did that look like and what was the situation? If a dog corrects a pup, the pup will freeze, not so much toddlers so the dog will increase it's correction which can harm or kill a small kid. Adding the other dog and you have a problem.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Yes, thanks Chip! You are right. At my age, I have dealt with large potentially aggressive dogs for decades, before I ever knew of the benefits of the prong. The first dog I had to correct on this was large and powerful, and it took strength. I had him in mind. And the sideways correction is absolutely right. Sometimes you take things for granted, so I didn't mention it.


Thanks for the extra details! I think a lot of things some of us get "right" we take for granted! I made many mistakes with Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab Dominate male dog and despite that he was a very well trained, well disciplined dog! 

So I'm pretty good at understanding what JQP might know or not know? But give credit where credit is due! 

Somewhere in here...Jeff Gellman spelled it out! 

What Would Jeff Do? : What Would Jeff Do? 9/6/2014

I just repeated what he had said!



Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Also, I didn't mean for the prong to be on the dog at all times. That's a no. I thought of the prong for the correction of the behavior because of its effect, a much more lasting impression than the same correction with a flat collar, for instance.


 I have no doubts on that one!



Susan_GSD_mom said:


> My thought was to set the dog up and correct.
> 
> Susan


No doubt that s correct! But it would be very hard for a "newbie" to pull off! Rocky OS WL GSD, "Aggressive" Dominant Male dog had "issues" with Gunther. He is also a "Wobble" dog so no harsh corrections on his neck!

I was standing right on next to him once when he was challegening Gunther?? I dared him to try it! He took that bet! I'm fast but not fast enough!

I think I got stitches breaking that one up! E collar would have been the "approriate tool! Did not know about them at the time. Lessons learned..igh


----------



## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

LOL I'm a girl and I broke 1200 lb. horses. When my dogs give me additude like I can't handle them, I laugh. Honey, your 70 lbs. dripping wet?


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> No real experience here but, I'm curious if you try a place command.. where before you correct a behavior you "place" her and make the correction.. then release? Maybe over time she will learn that you are in charge. This is ONLY when you initiate the correction right? Not her deciding he needs correction?


Along those lines yes. Every Dog should be taught the "Place Command."

In this case both dogs,should be taught "Place" and actually as Susan_GSD_mom said...setup the dog! 

The good dog in "Place" the bad dog circles if the bad dog 'looks" at the other dog wrong then you can give a hard correction! The you could reserve the roles the "Bad" dog in place and circle! You can correct the dog for breaking "Place!"

Something like this would allow the correct use of a Prong Collar under "controlled" conditions. 

A muzzle and a long line could be used also in conjunction with the prong...control at a distance!

Susan_GSD_mom proposed the "setup the dog" hopefully she chime in again??


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nikitta said:


> LOL I'm a girl and I broke 1200 lb. horses. When my dogs give me additude like I can't handle them, I laugh. Honey, your 70 lbs. dripping wet?


You know that is actually a good point and my wife and I were discussing it! On Cesar 911 and Dog Whisper, Horse people have out of control dogs??

They can train a horse..or what every it is Horse people do.  But they can't train a freaking dog?? What's up with that??


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Nikitta said:


> LOL I'm a girl and I broke 1200 lb. horses. When my dogs give me additude like I can't handle them, I laugh. Honey, your 70 lbs. dripping wet?


Hah! Same here! I tell my dogs, no matter what, I will always be stronger than you are, lol. And my dogs are spoiled, not abused, but I have laughingly actually said that, to my GSDs as well as wolfdogs. It's all in timing, balance, position, no matter the size of the horse or dog, as well as respect, but no fear. Deal with a 1200 lb. stallion whose owners have spoiled, and you will laugh at a dog, lol!

And the horse people who can't train dogs... Maybe they only dealt with the horses who weren't the sharpest tool in the shed? Different breeds have different levels of intelligence--I prefer my horses and my dogs to be intelligent. It is a different mode of training between the two, though, you have to take into account the intelligence of the animal before you.

Susan


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Along those lines yes. Every Dog should be taught the "Place Command."
> 
> In this case both dogs,should be taught "Place" and actually as Susan_GSD_mom said...setup the dog!
> 
> ...


Hmmm, well, this is the spot where she may need the help of a trainer who can come in and watch. Pretty hard to tell her how to set that up without seeing both dogs' behavior and interaction with each other. I'm not about to try and tell her HOW to do that, I would have to see the dogs to work that out. Perhaps one of our professionals could step in here, Baillif.....

Susan


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bragging about training 1200 lb horses doesn't help the OP. You cannot compare the two.


----------



## Zipties (Jun 30, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm Ok just to a "small" point! It doesn't take strength to properly use a prong collar! If it does...your using it wrong!
> 
> Put a drag leash on the dog. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture. And if you have to give a correction, you pull the dog "sideways" throw him off balance! If you pull straight back on a "Prong Collar" you put drive "into" the dog not take it out! Kinda the way they work!


I understand about the minor correction associated with the prong collar. I use them to walk to dogs because they both have a high prey drive and I am not strong enough to stop them if something catches their eye before I give the "leave it"
And the pull back correction I have noticed does ramp up her aggression as I mentioned in the OP. I will probably use her flat collar and the sideways tug on the drag leash.



wolfy dog said:


> I's pack behavior. As soon as you see her tense up you body block her as it is YOUR job to take care of business.
> I am worried about her behavior around your toddler though. That can quickly turn into a disaster, especially because you saw a "slight correction behavior". What did that look like and what was the situation? If a dog corrects a pup, the pup will freeze, not so much toddlers so the dog will increase it's correction which can harm or kill a small kid. Adding the other dog and you have a problem.


The situation I saw with my toddler: Baby was getting into something in the living room and I guess my GSD noticed my stride and body language because as I walked towards the baby, my GSD ran past me and nudged the baby on the back of the neck. 


Unfortunately I can't test any of these methods with her for the next month or so because she is on crate rest recovering from TPLO surgery. I have consulted with some behaviorists in the area and will probably contact them to do an in-home evaluation when she's better. She doesn't show any aggression in public, I can correct the other dog all day long and get no reaction from her.. But as soon as we're at home she's like a different dog.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Hmmm, well, this is the spot where she may need the help of a trainer who can come in and watch. Pretty hard to tell her how to set that up without seeing both dogs' behavior and interaction with each other. I'm not about to try and tell her HOW to do that, I would have to see the dogs to work that out. Perhaps one of our professionals could step in here, Baillif.....
> 
> Susan


Good call and it's at least easier to work on if you have at least "one' well trained dog! So I'll stand pat with "The Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog."


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Zipties said:


> I understand about the minor correction associated with the prong collar. I use them to walk to dogs because they both have a high prey drive and I am not strong enough to stop them if something catches their eye before I give the "leave it"
> And the pull back correction I have noticed does ramp up her aggression as I mentioned in the OP. I will probably use her flat collar and the sideways tug on the drag leash.


 Prong has more "power" as such but Slip Lead Leash,Flat Collar or Prong all are used "correctly" the same way. 

SLip Lead Leash is kinda my thing. 




Zipties said:


> The situation I saw with my toddler: Baby was getting into something in the living room and I guess my GSD noticed my stride and body language because as I walked towards the baby, my GSD ran past me and nudged the baby on the back of the neck.


 I don't do kids or babies.





Zipties said:


> Unfortunately I can't test any of these methods with her for the next month or so because she is on crate rest recovering from TPLO surgery. I have consulted with some behaviorists in the area and will probably contact them to do an in-home evaluation when she's better. She doesn't show any aggression in public, I can correct the other dog all day long and get no reaction from her.. But as soon as we're at home she's like a different dog.


OH...it strikes me that now would be an excellent time to do "Sit on the Dog!" Just saying.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> And the horse people who can't train dogs... Maybe they only dealt with the horses who weren't the sharpest tool in the shed? Different breeds have different levels of intelligence--I prefer my horses and my dogs to be intelligent. It is a different mode of training between the two, though, you have to take into account the intelligence of the animal before you.
> 
> Susan


That's interesting?? We are not horse people but Marilyn was saying the lady was an idiot and she does not know Horses! She felt that owner had no understanding of what she was doing and was merely following a script as it were.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> That's interesting?? We are not horse people but Marilyn was saying the lady was an idiot and she does not know Horses! She felt that owner had no understanding of what she was doing and was merely following a script as it were.


Really astute of Marilyn to pick that out! I know the type, I have dealt with horse owners like that. Sheesh!

Susan


----------

