# DDR Breeders in Canada



## DDRpupme (May 1, 2020)

Hi there, I am currently searching for a DDR male in Canada. Could be a puppy or an older male. This question was posted once in 2011 and that OP found a pup through this site so I thought I would give it a try. Thank you for your time


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Is there a reason you are looking at the DDR lines? Or are you just looking at working lines?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Be careful - be very very very careful.....a very very notorious male was sold out of Germany after attacking a judge or two and he ended up in Canada - not sure where...but I see him popping up in pedigrees and have had some online discussion with people who have dogs from his/family....not dogs for beginners....DDR dogs can be very very strong and not as .,.......compliant as some other types....when any strain is bred to meet demand for something cosmetic, without understanding the genetics and family background, there are likely to be issues.

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Be careful - be very very very careful.....a very very notorious male was sold out of Germany after attacking a judge or two and he ended up in Canada - not sure where...but I see him popping up in pedigrees and have had some online discussion with people who have dogs from his/family....not dogs for beginners....DDR dogs can be very very strong and not as .,.......compliant as some other types....when any strain is bred to meet demand for something cosmetic, without understanding the genetics and family background, there are likely to be issues.
> 
> Lee


Lee can you PM me that dogs name? Buds mom was pure DDR as far as I know and there was some very REAL aggression in that line. I agree, not for the beginner. She actually attacked a couple of novice handlers. Did great with someone who knew how to handle her but that whole line was not for the faint of heart.


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> Be careful - be very very very careful.....a very very notorious male was sold out of Germany after attacking a judge or two and he ended up in Canada - not sure where...but I see him popping up in pedigrees and have had some online discussion with people who have dogs from his/family....not dogs for beginners....DDR dogs can be very very strong and not as .,.......compliant as some other types....when any strain is bred to meet demand for something cosmetic, without understanding the genetics and family background, there are likely to be issues.
> 
> Lee


I think that poor dog started out with the wrong owner to begin with...and combined with genetics, and then passed around to many owners, he didn't have the greatest life or the best reputation. I do know he was treated very well by at least one of the many people who had him in Canada.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BahCan said:


> I think that poor dog started out with the wrong owner to begin with...and combined with genetics, and then passed around to many owners, he didn't have the greatest life or the best reputation. I do know he was treated very well by at least one of the many people who had him in Canada.


I really want to know who this dog is!


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

I sent you the name


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Why is the dogs name a secret?? Seems it should be public to all


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BahCan said:


> I sent you the name


I already typed out a reply but it disappeared. I spent a very depressing 20 minutes reading about this dog. Sad, but not surprising.
It always bothers me when people say they are looking for DDR dogs. It is far to often that they like the look and know little else.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I don't think dogs should be bred to be aggressive. Good working drive and be able to do anything you train them for and do a excellent job, yes! But to have and breed a dog that you know is down right aggressive, HECK NO!


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I hate when people start a post and others contribute and the OP is no longer around. People on the forums over the years know about {name removed}, but don’t know if they have accurate information, not that I do. I will just say that there really are no true DDR dogs left, what you get primarily from the remnants of the original gene pool is type much more than temperament with the exception that the original, quality DDR dogs were known for strong defensive aggression and dominance. More of the type has been maintained than temperament because the original system that assessed temperament is long gone. Occasionally you will get an atavistic throwback to the early temperament types and then people see such a dog as having faulty temperament when that is what the East Germans were trying to breed for. They were military dogs, not for civilians or sport.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just curious, why is the dog's name such a secret? Wouldn't the public benefit from knowing?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

The forum rules aren’t a secret


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Fodder said:


> The forum rules aren’t a secret


@Fodder Can you clarify? All sorts of dogs are named by name here? I guess I'm confused!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I think the issue may be that there were several breeders involved who could be harmed by the dogs name being bandied about on a public forum.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I think the issue may be that there were several breeders involved who could be harmed by the dogs name being bandied about on a public forum.


Oh! Okay, is there any way I can delete my post then??


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Fodder said:


> The forum rules aren’t a secret


Thank you, for editing!! I apologize. I read through the forum rules a little bit ago. You guys are different from Poodle Forum😅 thanks again!


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I think the issue may be that there were several breeders involved who could be harmed by the dogs name being bandied about on a public forum.


Never mind it was edited.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I think the issue may be that there were several breeders involved who could be harmed by the dogs name being bandied about on a public forum.


THANKS! But to me it seems like an overly aggressive application of policy!

Nobody's bashing a breeder, just talking about an individual dog!

Great breeders also turn out dogs that show traits that are unwanted. Calling out the traits in that particular dog, is in no way breeder bashing! 

Honestly, I don't get it.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> THANKS! But to me it seems like an overly aggressive application of policy!
> 
> Nobody's bashing a breeder, just talking about an individual dog!
> 
> ...


I'm thinking the same thing.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> THANKS! But to me it seems like an overly aggressive application of policy!
> 
> Nobody's bashing a breeder, just talking about an individual dog!
> 
> ...


There was more edited/removed than the dogs name. There is also a rule against statements made based on rumor. I agree there’s a fine line... sometimes it’s a judgement call based on the direction a thread is moving and/or information that everyone is not privy to.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Fodder said:


> There was more edited/removed than the dogs name. There is also a rule against statements made based on rumor. I agree there’s a fine line... sometimes it’s a judgement call based on the direction a thread is moving and/or information that everyone is not privy to.


 Yeah, I get that it's not easy!

I just don't see why a dog who has been already publicly shown to have unwarranted aggression, can't be called out by name here. Public knowledge already...just not here, so we have to search.

But I'll let it go...thanks for the response! I get the difficulty you folks deal with...


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Shadow Shepherd,
GSDs are supposed to have aggression. Aggression comes in many forms. There is predatory aggression (prey drive), defensive aggression which is variable in terms of confidence vs. fear but is always triggered by worry, frustration aggression which is related to high prey drive, territorial aggression, active aggression, and social aggression which is rare. Without various forms and degrees of aggression, the dog is not consistent with what the breed was developed for.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip, do you know the particular dog that appearantly cannot be mentioned? Please PM me that name if you do, along with any personal insight you may have.

I'd be eternally grateful for the info!


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Is it okay if someone could PM me too please?


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Shadow Shepherd,
> GSDs are supposed to have aggression. Aggression comes in many forms. There is predatory aggression (prey drive), defensive aggression which is variable in terms of confidence vs. fear but is always triggered by worry, frustration aggression which is related to high prey drive, territorial aggression, active aggression, and social aggression which is rare. Without various forms and degrees of aggression, the dog is not consistent with what the breed was developed for.


Wasn't the German Shepherd a herder and livestock guardian?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t know what the big secret is. I believe people are referring to Boban von Grauen Monstab. There was something about being prohibited about certain breeding combinations due to his hips and caution about how he was bred due to unstable, serious aggression. I also heard he was sold from Holland to North America and produced some decent pups. His owner had a website and a forum and he became an internet story. It was not clear what was due to inexperienced handling vs. genetics for dominance/aggression. He was a beautiful, masculine dog. I only saw photos of him doing bite work and his body language, such as ear carriage when biting suggested very high defensive aggression and the dog being overly sharp. If he had a more competent handler, there might have been a different outcome. The website was vomdomburgerland and it was partially about a middle aged Dutchman dumping his wife for a hot South American woman, so it was weird and probably revealing about the dog’s foundation.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Thank you, chip!! I just wanted to know the Who, What, Where, and how about this dog and avoid the breeder after doing my research on them.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There was a breeder named Steve Lino in FL - now passed - who was very very knowledgable about DDR dogs and Boban. I used to talk to him alot....what was publicized about this dog is far far from the information I gathered from him. Much is white washed publically

I absolutely hate naming any dog who has certain characteristics attributed to him publically. A multitude of people take offense and rise up in angry denial because the dog is in their dog's pedigree....genetics have a certain amount of random expression...not every dog in a litter is genetically the same ...the lucky ones do not get the undesirable genes.

The original owner twice tried to koer the dog and twice failed in the conformation ring as he could not be examined by a judge. Published by the owner on the above referenced DDR discussion board he hosted - FACT. He produced a high incidence of bad hips and elbows, as did the combination of his parents. The daughter kept back by owner had very bad hips - again publically stated on board - FACT. The SV informed the breeder that the pairing was prohibited from being repeated again - there were 3 litters produced prior to this prohibition. Again, by owner on board - FACT. 

Personally have gathered info on dog in US via Steve, who mentored many people in DDR dogs. Personally, will not touch a dog with this dog (or his siblings) in the pedigree. Maybe 75% did not get the genetics for the aggression - but what about the ones who did? To me - breeding is all about risk taking - do you do a breeding which has red flags (certain dogs) for handler aggression? For tendency to injury of backs? For out of control inappropriate aggression fowards people or dogs? For high percentage of poor hips? Many people play these odds and hope they don't get that puppy that turns out so aggressive it is put down or that they get horrible hips or spinal issues...but tis there a sense of responsiblity to the buyer of that pup who raises it and loves it - or who has sport goals - and has to put it down or retire it when the red flagged genetics are expressed. I am not a gambler and really agonize over pedigrees with risks. There are always risks because you cannot "know" about the genetics of every single dog for 10 or 20 generations - only the ones who are prepotent for both good and bad - and that is WHY you are aware of them! How many times do you hear "XYZ is good/bad for grips" or speed, or ball drive, or hips etc....we all know certain ones...but there are still lots of negatives floating around we cannot predict. Spent time with a German breeder of a well known stud dog - he showed me scars, told me that this stud dog put him "3 times in hospital!" Laughed about it - dog was top competition dog, "everybody breeds to him because he wins"...this is not gossip, this was a converstation I personally had wtih the owner/breeder of a well known stud dog who is in many many many pedigrees. It is very interesting that there is no denial or outrage when you talk to a German breeder, there is a calm statement and acceptance of the good and bad or high risk qualities of certain dogs and kennels. Here - you make a comment that XYX is <a very bad negative> and you are verbally stoned!

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@wolfstraum , I always love reading your insight. To my mind a dog that is so aggressive that it requires specific handling has no business being bred. 
I loved Bud. And his sire was a doll. His dam not so much. In hindsight there were issues. At the time I naively believed that my mentor knew what he was doing. Today I can say with a lump in my throat that he was wrong. Excusing inappropriate aggression hurts the breed. Sasha climbed a fence to attack another bitch. She attacked two different handlers. She attempted to kill her own pup. 
Bud was aggressive. He needed to be managed. He was not a dog you let loose at picnics. And he enjoyed the fight. BUT he could be safely handled with few issues as long as his handler was competent. And I suspect his issues stemmed from abuse, not genetics.
The DDR dogs I have seen seem to fit solidly into one of two categories. They are really awesome or really not
When any breeder focuses on looks we run into issues. And sadly everyone likes the big heads and awesome pigment.
I hate when I hear statements about appropriate aggression. All to often it is an excuse. These dogs are supposed to be safe around children, supposed to be fine with livestock (hello? ShepHERD), they were never supposed to be more then courageously protective of their families. And aloof means they don't make the first move, not that they don't allow it. 
Hardcore selective breeding of the DDR lines made them the best and the worst of the breed. While I admit to loving that structure, there needs to be knowledge and care in guarding the lines.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> Yeah, I get that it's not easy!
> 
> I just don't see why a dog who has been already publicly shown to have unwarranted aggression, can't be called out by name here. Public knowledge already...just not here, so we have to search.
> 
> But I'll let it go...thanks for the response! I get the difficulty you folks deal with...





tim_s_adams said:


> Just curious, why is the dog's name such a secret? Wouldn't the public benefit from knowing?


my question is why was this dog brought up in the first place???? The question the OP had did not warrant the comment about a specific dog. I’m sure there are more then just this one. One example is does not mean OMG don’t get a DDR dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> my question is why was this dog brought up in the first place???? The question the OP had did not warrant the comment about a specific dog. I’m sure there are more then just this one. One example is does not mean OMG don’t get a DDR dog.


He was only brought up as a caution because the Canadian network is much, much smaller and the chance of running into his offspring would be high IF they are still around.
There would only be a handful of breeders to start with and we know that at least 4-5 of them are potentially breeding off these lines. And he was HEAVILY bred, so they are around I have no doubt.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Maybe the best thing would be to visit some DDR breeders and some training clubs to get an idea of what you like in terms of personality not just looks. There is a DDR male in my training club that is impressive in both looks and temperament that I love. However my first Shepherd was half DDR and half WGWL and had so many issues I let the breeder re-home her. In general I think DDR dogs have a higher level of suspicion and many of the dogs being bred don't have the nerves the breed should have. My female was very spooky as everything startled her. She spooked if I tripped during tracking, at the sight of the neighbors child and spun and tail chased. She was also very independent and less handler bonded. My impression of the DDR cross pups that I have seen were that the females definitely ran more nervy than the males. There is a lot of variability in the breed. We currently have a WGWL/belgian lines female and her son who has some czech in him. The female is aloof, stable but polite and the male is the ultimate social butterfly. I wouldn't fixate on a particular line.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> He was only brought up as a caution because the Canadian network is much, much smaller and the chance of running into his offspring would be high IF they are still around.
> There would only be a handful of breeders to start with and we know that at least 4-5 of them are potentially breeding off these lines. And he was HEAVILY bred, so they are around I have no doubt.


Ok so the name should be released. End of discussion


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Ok so the name should be released. End of discussion


Well, if you read all the posts you would see the dogs name is currently there


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Being brand new here, and with no right to judge any lines IMO... I saw the name and spent the last "many hours" reading a lot, including some posts on a different forum from that dog's owner in Western Canada. I do believe he was the dog's final home as well. 

My own reading led me from WOW who bred this dog and thought there should be more of him around... to HMMMM not an easy dog, definitely not a beginner dog but a good dog in the right hands. There was a lot of back and forth on nurture vs nature, and lots of bashing and so on. The man who was writing as being his final owner laid out the good and bad, seems his reputation is very inflated and sensationalized through many second hand stories and such.

The caveat here is - I also just read a lot of random stuff on the internet, I just think it would have been interesting to see how that dog would have progressed in different hands from day 1. It also seemed like there was a lot of not well thought out pairings for puppies based on the ability to make money.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

I see this site as a great resource for those who are new or like me, don't spend hours a day reading pedigrees and history of the lines. I leave that to those who are passionate about it. It would be a darn shame to not name this dog publicly for what he is. Good or bad. Knowledge is power for someone new to the breed, they rely on the experience of others to gain some knowledge.

I had never heard of Boban von Grauen Monstab. Now I will be able to steer clear of linage that has him (maybe siblings) next time around.

So, thanks Lee.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I also am puzzled why this dog's name became such a mystery throughout this thread and why those posts were deleted. We regularly discuss dogs and and lines. The rules state we can not post negative information on breeders. However, I can also understand Lee's POV to not name the dog as people often get very personal if you don't like a dog or progeny you have seen from a dog. But the name is here now....

Nor do I understand the craze for people wanting DDR dogs. 99.9% of people do not even understand what they are asking for and are back in a year with issues. 

So - does anyone have any useful input for the OP (who apparently has run for the hills) on a good breeder in Canada? Maybe address the balance they need to look for in the dog in comparison of what they want in a dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

finn'smom said:


> Being brand new here, and with no right to judge any lines IMO... I saw the name and spent the last "many hours" reading a lot, including some posts on a different forum from that dog's owner in Western Canada. I do believe he was the dog's final home as well.
> 
> My own reading led me from WOW who bred this dog and thought there should be more of him around... to HMMMM not an easy dog, definitely not a beginner dog but a good dog in the right hands. There was a lot of back and forth on nurture vs nature, and lots of bashing and so on. The man who was writing as being his final owner laid out the good and bad, seems his reputation is very inflated and sensationalized through many second hand stories and such.
> 
> The caveat here is - I also just read a lot of random stuff on the internet, I just think it would have been interesting to see how that dog would have progressed in different hands from day 1. It also seemed like there was a lot of not well thought out pairings for puppies based on the ability to make money.


I had sort of the same thoughts. It seems like a bunch of people let him down, badly.
That said. The dog was genetically highly aggressive, and IMO, should not have been breed. The fact that a large portion of his offspring were destroyed proves that. 
As I was reading through I felt horribly sorry for him. It seems he spent much of his life being viewed as profit and no one really tried to see the dog. 
Again, this excusing of aggression needs to stop. The DDR dogs in particular are all to often bred for looks and nothing else is considered.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Yes, the dogs full name is here now. Posts that involved speculation or breeders names have been removed.



Jax08 said:


> So - does anyone have any useful input for the OP (who apparently has run for the hills) on a good breeder in Canada? Maybe address the balance they need to look for in the dog in comparison of what they want in a dog.


This!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

To the best of my knowledge. There are no breeders in Canada who focus on the DDR lines, a small handful who are WL breeders, and only a few that are even utilizing those lines. Carmspack would have been the best resource here. As was mentioned the best bet would be the club's.
Failing all of that back to @wolfstraum and her knowledge of who is currently in Canada.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Canda is nearly as big - or maybe bigger in area - than US......there are people concentrating on pet DDR dogs out on US West Coast - don't know where OP is.....

Yes - the thread went way off on a tangent when people just fixated and HAD to know the name of a dog - I will always give info out with a caution on message - but just don't want the arguing on posts - which happened anyway as everyone debated about the dog that most never even heard of!

My apologies to the OP....and given what I know about the dog - hips. elbows and temperament - even if result of training - I still would not want him or any siblings in a pedigree....

Lee


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I had sort of the same thoughts. It seems like a bunch of people let him down, badly.
> That said. The dog was genetically highly aggressive, and IMO, should not have been breed. The fact that a large portion of his offspring were destroyed proves that.
> As I was reading through I felt horribly sorry for him. It seems he spent much of his life being viewed as profit and no one really tried to see the dog.
> Again, this excusing of aggression needs to stop. The DDR dogs in particular are all to often bred for looks and nothing else is considered.


What I got from it was... inexperienced hands as puppy and being a dog that would stand up for himself didn’t take well at all to a handler using force and aggression and fought back... sold to North America to an owner who started out afraid of him and basically left him in a kennel and bred him numerous times... then some grey periods lol and ends up with a man in Canada who described him as aggressive in his crate but outside of that got along quite well when treated with respect. Lived with a pack on a farm or ranch property and if I researched well that man still has a son of his he uses for breeding and has titled. His period of excessive breeding resulted in many puppies being sold off to unsuspecting pet homes and ended up being put to sleep. It seemed to me like his abilities in a very select few arenas would have been sought after, but making a lot more like him without proper homes and thought to who he was paired with became a long standing disaster story. 

I simply find the history fascinating, I have zero expertise to weigh in on which dogs should or shouldn’t be bred. After my reading I’ve discovered there are a lot of stunning looking DDR dogs and I could see how people would be drawn in by that with little regard for anything else.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

finn'smom said:


> What I got from it was... inexperienced hands as puppy and being a dog that would stand up for himself didn’t take well at all to a handler using force and aggression and fought back... sold to North America to an owner who started out afraid of him and basically left him in a kennel and bred him numerous times... then some grey periods lol and ends up with a man in Canada who described him as aggressive in his crate but outside of that got along quite well when treated with respect. Lived with a pack on a farm or ranch property and if I researched well that man still has a son of his he uses for breeding and has titled. His period of excessive breeding resulted in many puppies being sold off to unsuspecting pet homes and ended up being put to sleep. It seemed to me like his abilities in a very select few arenas would have been sought after, but making a lot more like him without proper homes and thought to who he was paired with became a long standing disaster story.
> 
> I simply find the history fascinating, I have zero expertise to weigh in on which dogs should or shouldn’t be bred. After my reading I’ve discovered there are a lot of stunning looking DDR dogs and I could see how people would be drawn in by that with little regard for anything else.


and yes sorry, way off track from original post.... I get carried away researching sometimes and found it all fascinating.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Hans is an odd duck. He can be very helpful and is compassionate about the breed. But he sees himself as an iconoclast and is very self promoting and will bite you if you ruffle his feathers. I think you made a good choice and Christine knows her dogs and what they tend to produce.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Let's discuss specific dogs and details about breeders privately as per forum rules.

Further, if you need to discuss a particular dog or person please do so privately. Disagreements between breeder and purchaser, along with disputes between members, are not matters for public debate and likewise also should be handled privately. Members of this board are entitled to a reasonable standard of behavior from other members. A level of respect and courtesy must be maintained at all times, no exceptions. You may not like or agree with a particular person but we all share a love of the dogs and we all have a right to participate in the board’s activities free of harassment. Please do not quote a member's post out of context, using a portion, or portions, of the post that gives it new meaning, one the initial poster never intended to convey. Also, should you feel it necessary to use a quote from a post on this board somewhere else, wherever that may be, please obtain the explicit permission of the author prior to using the quote. This eliminates the possibility of our members being misrepresented without their knowledge.


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