# Lets See What You Guys Think...



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I had him critiqued by a club member that is heavily involved in AKC conformation. I'd like to see what some of you think...



















Not sure if they're too large, but I don't know how to resize...if needed I will resize.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

How old is he?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

21 months. Please comment! I'm not worried about it too much...its just for my own information on what people think of him, and maybe learn a little more about what the standard is and how he is or isn't conforming.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

This is what I think I see. Not sure if I'm correct or not.

The front looks ok. The angulation between scapula and humerus is a bit closed (acute) due to the humerus being a bit short. The dark black line running from his shoulder blade to chest kinda threw me off for a min, but I do believe he could be more angulated up front. Appears to stand east-west. Can't really see the feet, but in the top picture, they do look pretty tight. His top line seems to have a slight dip right behind the withers, but that could be the way he's standing maybe. The loin seems just a hair long and the croup short. Croup has a really nice angle though- but unfortunately short. Tail set seems appropriate for croup.

I have a really hard time with the rear end. I think that the upper leg seems a long compared to the pelvis and lower leg, which seems to be common with dogs that have short upper arms (at least from what I've read people critique on this forum). 

It could just be the angle, and would definitely help to see him in motion, but I think I'd say that it might be nice to take around 3 lbs off of him. He does have a nice tummy tuck, but just seems to me he could be a bit more trim.

That's my try at a critique!


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Not qualified to critique, but I think he is a handsome dog. I thought he could use a couple of pounds. I would be curious to hear what others think.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm not qualified either, but I still think it's fun to try.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Is your dog West German?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am more into German Show Lines, so I can be all wet. And it is really subjective anyway.

Overall impression is of a strong, agile dog, that can work.

I like the color. Nice big ears. Yucky prong collar. The eye is nice, but I am not sure if the stop is a bit domed or rounded, something. I do not like the muzzle at all, it looks long and skinny like the American specialty show-line dogs. A little lippy, lots of tongue (Jenna shows lots of tongue in probably every photo every snapped of her). 

I like the depth from withers to elbow, elbow to ground. Top line is nice in my opinion, at least to the tail, the tail set is a bit off, but not bad. If the dog has a black tip to his tail, than the tail is nice, if that is a shadow, the tail is a little short. 

I like a mature dog to be a little heavier in the front, not sure if the dog maybe could use a little thicker bone, I definitely like that his rear does not have an over-long stifle.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

selzer said:


> I like a mature dog to be a little heavier in the front, not sure if the dog maybe could use a little thicker bone, I definitely like that his rear does not have an over-long stifle.


selzer, I was going to PM you on this but figured everyone could benefit. I thought the term stifle simply meant the knee joint itself. I get the feeling that people may use it to refer to something else though. For example- what would it mean to have a "long stifle?" Are you referring to the joint, or the bones coming out of the joint (femur, tibia, fibula)? Just curious because this isn't the first time I've heard someone use the term long of short stifle and I really don't know what that means.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, well, I was going to say femur, but my brother broke his femur once, and I never hear dog people talk about the femur, so I looked up a picture, and found stifle joint right where I was thinking. And I do hear dog people talk about stifles and yes as in long or short. But it is a joint, and a joint is just a connection between two points, so I guess it was incorrect. The point I was referring to is the upper hind leg, that too many show dogs have way too long IMO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

To answer some questions...

His sire was west german, his dam was DDR. He doesn't stand east-west, might've just been the positioning. Thanks selzer for the "strong, agile, dog that can work" comment.

His coup as actually pretty long, and so is his top line. He's a bit long for his height, but he does stand at 26". His head is a little small, I'd like for it to grow a bit more, hopefully it gets a little bigger. His muzzle isn't that skinny, but its proportionate to his whole head, he definitely doesn't have a skinny "american" muzzle. His tail is very long, pretty much to the floor, that is a black tip, can't believe you can see that from the picture.

Thanks for the responses guys, I'll try working on stacking and hopefully I'll post some better pictures.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is a break in the top-line of the muzzle, and I guess I was looking at it from that vantage. It looks long and skinny in my opinion, but may look different with the mouth closed. 

As for the tail, the tail coloring looks like it could have stopped there at the hock, but there is a darker bit below it, and that looks like the rest of the tail, but no, I have a hard time differentiating between the tail and the shadows in my computer. 

Overall, the dog looks very nice.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> There is a break in the top-line of the muzzle, and I guess I was looking at it from that vantage. It looks long and skinny in my opinion, but may look different with the mouth closed.
> 
> As for the tail, the tail coloring looks like it could have stopped there at the hock, but there is a darker bit below it, and that looks like the rest of the tail, but no, I have a hard time differentiating between the tail and the shadows in my computer.
> 
> Overall, the dog looks very nice.


Still...a very good eye. There is a break in his muzzle. I don't know how great of a fault that is, I think I've seen it in quite a few show dogs. I'm not planning on showing in conformation, but it might be fun to try sometime. Its nice to hear that I have a working line that compares well to the show lines.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Choose your shows, start at fun matches, maybe UKC or AKC all-breed ring. Not the specialty ring -- they have no tolerance for German dogs, not even German show-line. Some of them don't even differentiate between German show and German working lines, they just hate them all. I am in a club with specialty people -- we, a couple of us, are the red-headed step children.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> Choose your shows, start at fun matches, maybe UKC or AKC all-breed ring. Not the specialty ring -- they have no tolerance for German dogs, not even German show-line. Some of them don't even differentiate between German show and German working lines, they just hate them all. I am in a club with specialty people -- we, a couple of us, are the red-headed step children.


Thanks for the advice, I was thinking of getting into my club's conformation class and then maybe joining our specialty show in September. This was out of convenience more than anything else. I don't really know the rules of conformation showing, does it matter how many shows you enter? If he loses completely is it a bad thing? Do I have a limit of shows I can take him to before he can't qualify for a championship? (Yes, I have the go big or go home attitude when it comes to dog training and showing)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Not a flattering 'stack'. I'm sure he's a better looking dog than you see here. His tongue is out like he is over-heated and his ears are back instead of forward. Hard to tell about his head, looks a little long in the nose and domed skull but it could just be this shot. His tail looks long enough but the black tip looks like a shadow and is hard to see, making his tail look short. His rear angulation is fine. I like his loin, not overly cut like a Mal. The hair makes it look more full than it is. No front angulation, needs a little more 'shoulder'. (sorry for all the apostrophes). Steep croup makes the tail set look low (to me). Nice neck, deep chest. Could us a little more bone. Please try a photo that will do him more justice. I know how hard they are to get just right.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

We just got done playing fetch, he was tired enough to allow me to stack him and actually take pictures. I'll try working on a better stack.

I find your shoulder comment interesting, the lady at my club, said he had very nice shoulders, but she was looking at it from an American point of view, not sure if you're more into the German lines or not. Her quote was "he has some of the best shoulders she's seen on a German dog"

His tail has always seemed a little low to me also. His coup is long but quite steep like you said. All the bone comments...is that something I can help with? Or is that just a genetic thing. I mean, I know he looks tiny compared to some of the big boys at our club. They have massive bones, but are also not working lines. Is this something that might develop in the next year, as he's still got some maturing to do? Or would it be apparent by now?

Our club is pretty much all american, and the boys in there are huge. Large heads, large bodies, but some of the ones that have won championships don't look very GSD to me (the face is very long and American). Another one in there is a beauty, but sadly doesn't have the drive to do much, I know he's been getting studded, as he should be, but he's just not interested in any work.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

martemchik said:


> I find your shoulder comment interesting, the lady at my club, said he had very nice shoulders, but she was looking at it from an American point of view, not sure if you're more into the German lines or not. Her quote was "he has some of the best shoulders she's seen on a German dog"


Of course it's been pointed out before that this is "just one person's opinion" but it seems a lot of people would agree it's a good opinion. As I said earlier- I also thought the front could use more angulation. I based that on the information here:
New Page 1

[EDIT]- If your curious to read more about the front end, Carmen had some great comments on the subject on my dog's critique thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/173542-please-critique-pimg.html There is a ton of info in there!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wildo said:


> Of course it's been pointed out before that this is "just one person's opinion" but it seems a lot of people would agree it's a good opinion. As I said earlier- I also thought the front could use more angulation. I based that on the information here:
> New Page 1


I know, I'm just trying to figure out the difference between the "German" and "American" opinion. I've read a lot about conformation, on this forum and other places, but until someone points it out on your dog, you really have no idea what people are talking about. Like, I'm kind of confused on the more angulation comment, does that mean you would prefer to see his upper arm come up at a lower angle before it hits the shoulder bone? I know he's close to 45 degrees, is it preferred to have a little more than 45 degrees just so that its clearer to the judge or who ever is looking? So as a non-biased person, you'd like to see a more acute angle at the shoulder joint?

PS the link won't work...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Which link doesn't work? They both seem to be working for me. In the forearm link, there is this image:










The joint between the scapula and upper arm (humerus) should be around 95 degrees. A more acute joint will provide better cushioning at the expense of energy consumption (she gives the example of standing with our knees bent) while a more obtuse angle gives better reach at the expense of cushioning. In my opinion, I see a more obtuse angle in your dog and that's why I gave the comment of wanting a bit more angulation. I will point out that I was incorrect in my choice of words when I said:


> The angulation between scapula and humerus is a bit closed (acute)


I meant it was a bit open (obtuse). And in the vein of clarification- I was also talking about Linda Shaw's opinion of structure as being the "good opinion," not my own. Haha- I don't even know what heck I'm talking about. (Ok- only enough to make me dangerous.)


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Wildo illustrated what I mean about the shoulder. Your dog does not have the angulation (right angle) between his forearm and upper arm to give him a more pronounced shoulder. This is just my opinion and I am certainly no expert.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Since this thread is geared more towards "educating"....I would like to comment.
_*And I don't usually on critique threads.....because I never want to offend anyone.*_

The dog pictured is a nice masculine male type. He has enough bone for his stature.
The main "structural faults" are...(and all dogs have their own)....
His shoulder blade is steep without having enough angle, along with a short, steep upper-arm. He has a *good* top-line. He does have a deep chest/brisket. He *does* have a short, steep croup with a high tail set......his rear is good.
He could use a little more "bend" to stifle, because he has taller hock bones.

@ a question earlier regarding Femur, Tibia & Fibula bones.
_The Femur, Tibia & Fibula bones (ideally) are supposed to be all of the same length, to have a nice balanced rear. When the Fibula & Tibia (lower thigh) is longer than the length of the Femur bone....one gets the impression of over-angulation....this will also occur when the Femur bone is longer than both the Tibia & Fibula..(with a different appearance)._
_My biggest surprise in most critiques....is, the impression or view of the *"croup".....?!*_


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Thanks for the advice, I was thinking of getting into my club's conformation class and then maybe joining our specialty show in September. This was out of convenience more than anything else. I don't really know the rules of conformation showing, does it matter how many shows you enter? If he loses completely is it a bad thing? Do I have a limit of shows I can take him to before he can't qualify for a championship? (Yes, I have the go big or go home attitude when it comes to dog training and showing)


You can enter as few or as many if you want. If he loses, it doesn't matter, you just lose your entry money and the time to participate is all. Now if he is DQ'd or excused, that's a bit different, but it happens. In order to get a championship he has to earn wins/majors which means beating other dogs. In UKC you need 100 points and 3 wins. Not sure about AKC but it's much more difficult in AKC. It's not like other sports where you are really only competing against yourself for earning a certain number of points 3 times and getting the title. In conformation you have to actually beat the other dogs and will get points/wins/majors based on how many dogs you are beating. So you could show for years and not earn a CH or you could have a very nice dog that finishes quickly.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wildo said:


> Which link doesn't work? They both seem to be working for me. In the forearm link, there is this image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't see anything!!! And I want to...but thanks for the explanation, I have to agree with that one about the shoulder. I think its alright, but a little more angle would make it more pronounced.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

robinhuerta said:


> Since this thread is geared more towards "educating"....I would like to comment.
> _*And I don't usually on critique threads.....because I never want to offend anyone.*_
> 
> The dog pictured is a nice masculine male type. He has enough bone for his stature.
> ...


Thanks robin, its interesting what people focus on depending on their idea of a GSD. I really wanted to see what the people on the forum thought after what I was told by the lady at my club. Just goes to show, its so subjective with our breed. Some of the things you guys are pointing out as could be better, she said were good, while other things that you seem to like, she pointed out as problem areas. I'd like to get him moving a bit and see if we can take some shots of him moving, maybe post those.


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