# Argument with vet/nutrition



## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

So I got into a large debate with my vet tuesday night. We were discussing nutrition (specifically dry kibble). She disagrees with grain free diet.  Says that dogs are not obligate carnivores and therefore need grain in their diet. We argued about corn being used as a filler and whether or not its digestible...whole corn vs rolled etc...we went rounds on this topic. :crazy: We talked about allergens and what is the leading allergen in dog food. We discussed bioavailability to certain grains and carbohydrates...

ANYWAY

Ive done lots of research on the topic...I even took numerous classes in school on k9 and feline nutrition. Im going to go back to her with loads of research....in hand, hard evidence she can look at and not argue with. Im in the process of going through my binders looking for articles..

Anyone know any great websites off the top of their heads? 

This whole argument started with an ad from Solid Gold that she responded to...which in her defense the ad was absolute garbage. Never read anything like it...it didnt' even make any sense. 

p.s. she thinks Science Diet is an amazing food :rofl: enough said :wild:


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

After re-reading this post. I KNOW that dogs are not obligate carnivores..cats are. this wasn't part of the argument


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Just because they're not obligate carnivores doesn't mean they need grains, does it? They can have fruits and veggies. Cats and ferrets can't digest fruits or veggies because they are obligate carnivores.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Honestly, I can't think of any species that has to have grains. Humans can certainly do quite well without them.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

This was part of my argument. That a grain free diet doesn't JUST have protein. It has plenty of vegetables, fruits..carbohydrate sources! That grains are generally used as "fillers" and they are also known to be high allergens


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Honestly, I can't think of any species that has to have grains. Humans can certainly do quite well without them.


I actually asked her if she wanted to see my poop after I ate corn to show how well we digest it LMAO :rofl: She wasn't so amused :wild:


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well most grain free kibbles have a ton of other stuff than meat in them, so her argument about that is ridiculous. As far as grains...one could argue easily humans could easily get by without them provided that they have a sufficient supply of carbohydrates coming in from other sources such as sweet potato and beans. 

I'm curious for people that are pro grain...what exactly do they think the nutritional value they provide for dogs? Again, a lot of them have very little value for humans yet alone dogs who do not process grains nearly as well as we done. I wouldn't mind seeing high protein complex grains such as quinoa in dog food. But that would be extremely non cost effective.

Corn, no matter how many ways people try to argue it...is used for one purpose in dog food: it is a cheap filler. Plain and simple. Science Diet and Purina would not use it if it cost 4 times as much.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Long ago I learn not to discuss with a vet about:

Nutrition
Training and behaviour
Breeds

Did I mention I was in vet school and I'm back again into it? I know first hand that 90% don't have a clue about the above.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GoSearchk9 said:


> I actually asked her if she wanted to see my poop after I ate corn to show how well we digest it LMAO :rofl: She wasn't so amused :wild:


EXACTLY! And we digest it much better than dogs do!!!


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Hmmmm....well dogs are not obligate carnivores so she is right about that, Obligate means they HAVE TO have meat to survive, dogs do not need meat to survive and actually can live being a vegitarian, they won't thrive on that kind of diet but they will survive on it. Cats are obligate carnivores and therefore need meat to live. But on the other hand you are right in not wanting to feed your dog grains and neither do I. Now getting to the Solid Gold, IMO it's junk, according to dogfoodanalysis, it's too heavy on the grains. I started to feed my pup SG wolf cub before I read up on it, so I have a full bag if anyone would like it.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Im going to try to find the article so everyone can read it. I was literally in tears laughing! I have never used Solid Gold but thought it was a decent food. would never use it in a million years after reading this... I just started feeding TOTW, prior to that BB wilderness..although Im not thrilled with the horrendous smells TOTW is causing to come out of the back ends of my dogs lol!! I dont see why any person would ever think that grains are a good diet...I just dont get it. I thought they were UNIVERSALLY known to be a filler?!?!?! *sigh* oh well


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I hate the fact that all of the puppy foods, aside from Orijen, has grains. I don't see the need to feed a diet with grains in it to a dog. I think it's just a waste of money, 'cause you're paying for something that your dog can't digest.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm certainly not a canine nutritionist, never been to veterinary college once (let alone more than that), but....I trust my vet. If I didn't, I wouldn't be in his office. I also trust myself, and am able to see whether my dog is thriving or not. I've had challenges finding a diet that all three dogs can eat, will eat, and will thrive on. I am now feeding a dry food recommended by the breeder of my first GSD, topped once or twice per week with canned food as a treat. They get flavored vitamins as cookies, and during prime shedding and coat re-growth seasons they get a powdered, flavored fatty-acid supplement sprinkled on their food once a week. This has resulted in all three dogs having great muscle tone, energy levels, peak performances at obedience trials, and thick lustrous coats. If it works, I'm not changing it.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Scientists can't even come to an agreement on the argument of whether or not corn is digestible so I'm sure a customer and veterinarian wouldn't be able to come to an agreement upon it. 

Don't you think the veterinarian will already know the facts that you are bringing to her? After all, she probably had to do the pre-vet courses and animal science courses. Animal nutrition would definitely be a basic class for any pre-vet student to take before applying to vet school. 

I don't know much about vet offices but is there any chance she likes science diet because she makes good profit from the company by promoting and selling it? 

Anyways, why argue when you are going to feed your dog what you're going to feed him/her? If the vet has it set in her mind that science diet is a good kibble because she truly thinks it's a good kibble then there is no changing her stand on it. Some people are just stubborn and stupid like that.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> I hate the fact that all of the puppy foods, aside from Orijen, has grains. I don't see the need to feed a diet with grains in it to a dog. I think it's just a waste of money, 'cause you're paying for something that your dog can't digest.


Actually not all puppy foods aside from Orijen have grains. Just thought I'd throw that in there.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I hate the fact that all of the puppy foods, aside from Orijen, has grains. I don't see the need to feed a diet with grains in it to a dog. I think it's just a waste of money, 'cause you're paying for something that your dog can't digest.


 
You are right and I myself do feed Orijen but IMO I don't think it will hurt a dog to have "some" grains in his or her diet. I know everyone compairs dogs to wolves and coyotes and there are some differences in temperament, but the digestive system is very close. You WILL find grains in a coyotes belly esp if he just ate a deer, turkey, rabbit etc. A lot of people think they eat the meat first but this is not true, they eat the innards (guts) first then move to the meat and bone. Anyway, most prey they eat are dependant on grains....so when they eat the stomach content they are actually getting grains in their diet. They will also eat nuts, corn, wheat if hungry.


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

Catu said:


> Long ago I learn not to discuss with a vet about:
> 
> Nutrition
> Training and behaviour
> ...


 This person has it correct. I have talked with vets before after they talk about how healthy my pets look, then they ask what I am feeding and I used to tell them the truth (raw), but sometimes it just isn't worth the nasty looks and their treatment of your choice after wards. I had a vet look at me and say, "so you feed your pets TABLE SCRAPS?!"

I did have a great discussion once and she openly admitted that she knew Science Diet was a crap food and her office was covered with it.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

GoSearch - I went thru a similar discussion with my vet with the same results. He's a great vet, but I don't agree with his take on the various foods. All that discussion taught me, was that I'll never discuss it again with him! I also asked if he wanted to see a human poop sample with whole corn in it...in my case, since I have to wear a temporary colostomy bag following cancer, I could've shown him right then & there.:laugh::laugh:

He declined my offer.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think there's anything wrong with feeding grains, I just don't think there's a need to.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> EXACTLY! And we digest it much better than dogs do!!!


I agree,I wouldn't argue it. I have learned that I can be more knowledgeable than any vet or even my PCP on personal matters if I research first.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

If I am having a discussion with someone and we disagree, I generally don't bother to try to change their minds. Life is too short. Chances are I'm not going to change anyone's mind if they are obviously not open to a second opinion. 

I used a vet for a very short time that did not agree with the amount of meat in my dogs diets. She said it was risky for kidney problems. I said "Oh really, wow I didn't know that." I'm sure I gave her the impression that I would never feed meat to them again. In reality I just dismissed her opinion as easily as she dismissed mine. We both left the exam room happy.


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## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> If I am having a discussion with someone and we disagree, I generally don't bother to try to change their minds. Life is too short. Chances are I'm not going to change anyone's mind if they are obviously not open to a second opinion.
> 
> I used a vet for a very short time that did not agree with the amount of meat in my dogs diets. She said it was risky for kidney problems. I said "Oh really, wow I didn't know that." I'm sure I gave her the impression that I would never feed meat to them again. In reality I just dismissed her opinion as easily as she dismissed mine. We both left the exam room happy.


Yup,better to just know what you know and leave it at that,I could argue all day everyday!!


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## My2Furkids (Sep 21, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> Scientists can't even come to an agreement on the argument of whether or not corn is digestible so I'm sure a customer and veterinarian wouldn't be able to come to an agreement upon it.
> 
> Don't you think the veterinarian will already know the facts that you are bringing to her? After all, she probably had to do the pre-vet courses and animal science courses. Animal nutrition would definitely be a basic class for any pre-vet student to take before applying to vet school.
> 
> ...


Most vets don't know JACK about animal nutrition, and no - it is NOT a required class before applying to vet school, nor is it a part of vet school curriculum. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Vets don't know squat about nutrition. 

Also, many vets are not paid commission on the foods they sell. They simply feed into what the rest of society feeds off of from the media.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GoSearchk9 said:


> Im going to try to find the article so everyone can read it. I was literally in tears laughing! I have never used Solid Gold but thought it was a decent food. would never use it in a million years after reading this... I just started feeding TOTW, prior to that BB wilderness..although Im not thrilled with the horrendous smells TOTW is causing to come out of the back ends of my dogs lol!! I dont see why any person would ever think that grains are a good diet...I just dont get it. I thought they were UNIVERSALLY known to be a filler?!?!?! *sigh* oh well


Just any FYI TOTW's Ca and P levels are WAY too high for dogs under a year old....


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

GoSearchk9 said:


> I just started feeding TOTW, prior to that BB wilderness..although Im not thrilled with the horrendous smells TOTW is causing to come out of the back ends of my dogs lol!!


Have you considered that there may be something in the TOTW that doesn't agree with your dog? I feed it to mine and have never had any smells (well other than her usual stool that honestly isn't that smelly). 

I'm surprised by all the threads going on right now of dogs with gas. I think Raven has farted once in the 3 years I've had her.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> Also, many vets are not paid commission on the foods they sell.



Well, technically no, they don't get a commission, they get a profit. The markup versus their cost is what makes people crazy. The one office I worked in had a 10x markup (they paid approx $2 per bag and charged $20). So there was a huge incentive to get clients to feed that food. Luckily at that point I was strictly kennel help so never spoke with the clients, or I would have probably lost my job for telling them what cr** they were buying LOL.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Just a couple of things I would like to say here-

No, dogs are not obligate carnivores like cats. They are OPPORTUNISTIC carnivores, and do NOT require grains, fruit, or veggies in their diet in order to survive or thrive. They CAN eat these things, yes, and even derive some nutrition from them in a _cooked_ form, but they are absolutely in no way "required" as a part of the diet.

For those who doubt the carnivorous status of dogs, one need only look at their biology:

CARNIVORE (dog):









OMNIVORE (rat):









HERBIVORE (horse):










Source of images: Digestive System of Vertebrates: Mammals

You tell me which one is designed to process grains and other complex carbs, and which one isn't :thumbup:


Also, as far as wolves eating the stomach content first, this is largely false.

Wolves are pack hunters. When they down a kill, multiple animals are eating at one time. One wolf may be getting the intestines, the other may be getting a leg or the neck... they do not all dibby out the stomach contents so that everyone gets a bite. One wolf may not touch a single bit of intestine for several kills, thus the argument that they NEED foods to compensate for the stomach content of wild game is ridiculous, or at least grossly exaggerated. 

Also keep in mind that all prey animals eaten are NOT necessarily gut loaded upon consumption. In fact, considering the usual targets for predatory animals (the sick/weak/dying), they likely DON'T have a lot of food in their stomach.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> You are right and I myself do feed Orijen but IMO I don't think it will hurt a dog to have "some" grains in his or her diet. I know everyone compairs dogs to wolves and coyotes and there are some differences in temperament, but the digestive system is very close. You WILL find grains in a coyotes belly esp if he just ate a deer, turkey, rabbit etc. A lot of people think they eat the meat first but this is not true, they eat the innards (guts) first then move to the meat and bone. Anyway, most prey they eat are dependant on grains....so when they eat the stomach content they are actually getting grains in their diet. They will also eat nuts, corn, wheat if hungry.


 this is correct.they eat choice guts first and they usually go for the stomach and its contents tour dogs love sheep/horse poop too.Its gross but they love it.I grain out my prego ewes and horses and the dogs are in heaven if they can get at it.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

As someone who regularly feeds whole prey, let me say finitely, that the intestines are never the first thing eaten. 

Its more often the head, or the hind quarter.

Edit-

"Do wolves, in fact, eat the stomach contents of prey? Not according to David Mech (1), who has studied wolves in various parts of the world for more than 30 years. Mech observed wolves attack large herbivores, such as moose and elk. When wolves open the abdominal cavity and begin to eat digestive organs, they shake out the contents of stomachs before eating the organs. Thus, according to Mech, wolves eat a small amount of digested grasses that cling to the rough lining of stomachs, but they shake out large volumes of undigested grasses from herbivores' stomachs."

I trust Mech. He knows his wolves 

http://rmb4healthypets.blogspot.com/2010/06/do-wolvesdogs-eat-vegetablecontents-of.html
(complete with citation and everything!)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> I hate the fact that all of the puppy foods, aside from Orijen, has grains. I don't see the need to feed a diet with grains in it to a dog. I think it's just a waste of money, 'cause you're paying for something that your dog can't digest.


Natural Balance is another grain free that is suitable for puppies. In some ways, I would actually prefer to feed NB to puppies since it's a LID to avoid the idea that exposure at young ages to ingredients can encourage an allergy (ie peanuts to children under 2). Orijen is certainly a superior food, but it has a ton of igredients and protein sources. As someone who has a dog with multiple food sensitivites, I do appreciate the product that NB makes.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

atravis said:


> Just a couple of things I would like to say here-
> 
> No, dogs are not obligate carnivores like cats. They are OPPORTUNISTIC carnivores, and do NOT require grains, fruit, or veggies in their diet in order to survive or thrive. They CAN eat these things, yes, and even derive some nutrition from them in a _cooked_ form, but they are absolutely in no way "required" as a part of the diet.
> 
> ...


 horses digestive systems are not meant to have carbs as a main source either.they are foragers and require roughage such as grass,hay,even shredded bark in the harshest winters.Grains were add by humans on a larger scale later on.yes they injest gain heads naturally but not in massive amounts.
as for wolves its the top female that gets choice with a kill then her mate.They are the ones that get the soft inner guts because they have a higher nutritional content than lets say the chuck,blade or shoulder or the tougher muscle cuts in the neck region.they can gorge themselves with the prime because they are the only mating pair so require the best for pregnancy and nursing pups.They will of their own accord eat the gut content with relish but other times decide to leave it.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

tierra nuestra said:


> horses digestive systems are not meant to have carbs as a main source either.they are foragers and require roughage such as grass,hay,even shredded bark in the harshest winters.Grains were add by humans on a larger scale later on.yes they injest gain heads naturally but not in massive amounts.
> as for wolves its the top female that gets choice with a kill then her mate.They are the ones that get the soft inner guts because they have a higher nutritional content than lets say the chuck,blade or shoulder or the tougher muscle cuts in the neck region.they can gorge themselves with the prime because they are the only mating pair so require the best for pregnancy and nursing pups.They will of their own accord eat the gut content with relish but other times decide to leave it.


ORGANS are consumed first, and stomach lining, but NOT stomach content.

Once again, I reference Mech. The man's been studying these animals for over 30 years. I'm inclined to take his word for it.

Edit-

Ahhh, and proof of my point. If HORSES aren't even fully designed to consume grain/carbs in bulk, WHY on earth would dogs be?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Natural Balance is another grain free that is suitable for puppies. In some ways, I would actually prefer to feed NB to puppies since it's a LID to avoid the idea that exposure at young ages to ingredients can encourage an allergy (ie peanuts to children under 2). Orijen is certainly a superior food, but it has a ton of igredients and protein sources. As someone who has a dog with multiple food sensitivites, I do appreciate the product that NB makes.


i think animal protein sources are important to a growing pup. because NB LID foods are more potato than anything, i wouldnt feed something like NB to a pup unless they were having digestive problems with other foods.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

bocron said:


> Well, technically no, they don't get a commission, they get a profit. The markup versus their cost is what makes people crazy. The one office I worked in had a 10x markup (they paid approx $2 per bag and charged $20). So there was a huge incentive to get clients to feed that food. Luckily at that point I was strictly kennel help so never spoke with the clients, or I would have probably lost my job for telling them what cr** they were buying LOL.


Wow-I would say that particular office is not only in the minority, but thieves, as well. We've never paid only $2 per bag & certainly didn't mark it up like that! Maybe he makes more $$ on the cardboard foods than with the medical side? Did you truly have access to the accounting part of the practice, or was this something that someone else told you?


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I have to add to all the comments about me arguing with my vet that this is a vet I WORK with..not a vet I use. Sorry I didn't clarify that. I have been working in the vet community for many many years. So she doesn't tell me to use Science Diet because she is trying to sell it to me. This whole conversation began because she brought up this article she found and responded to....


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> Have you considered that there may be something in the TOTW that doesn't agree with your dog? I feed it to mine and have never had any smells (well other than her usual stool that honestly isn't that smelly).
> 
> I'm surprised by all the threads going on right now of dogs with gas. I think Raven has farted once in the 3 years I've had her.


Yes Im actually going to switch but havn't decided what to switch to. BB wilderness gave my one GSD really bad diarrhea, so thats why I made the switch initially....I hate picking a diet


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I work 12-13 hr shifts with this vet at times and so we get into heated debates..I guess I shouldn't have titled this argument because that really isn't a fair statement. And to comment on someone else's post.. nutritional at MANY veterinarian colleges is actually an elective over a requirement..I know this because I went . If this was a vet I took my dog to I wouldn't bother getting into this..because most vets, nor ANYONE agrees on the matter of nutrition..and I expect that.. but I do believe that there really is no place for grains. Will it hurt an animal, no of course not..unless they are allergic. But is there a place for them, not really. She believes that grains are not just important but a NECESSITY to a canine's diet..I disagree..so I wanted to come back with a good rebutal for our next horribly long boring winter shift together


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

well, there are plenty of dogs living very well without eating grains. You can tell her that grains are obviously not a necessity for those dogs.


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## CPH (Sep 8, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Natural Balance is another grain free that is suitable for puppies. In some ways, I would actually prefer to feed NB to puppies since it's a LID to avoid the idea that exposure at young ages to ingredients can encourage an allergy (ie peanuts to children under 2). Orijen is certainly a superior food, but it has a ton of igredients and protein sources. As someone who has a dog with multiple food sensitivites, I do appreciate the product that NB makes.


NOW! Also has a grain free puppy food.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is a anti-grain thread, but I am going to play:

The first ingredient in my dog food is Cornmeal. The corn is NOT GMO. 

According to one nutricianist, Chicken and beef are higher on the foods likely to cause allergies in dogs than corn. Corn is also below wheat and barley. And for the amount of cornmeal I am feeding, to eleven dogs, one must think my dogs are super dogs because, NONE of them have allergies. But whatever.

It is difficult to find a food that a number of dogs, some of which are not related, can all thrive on. My cornmean, chickenmeal food works for me. Some do not gain weight as readily as others, but for them most part, they are all doing very well. 

I fed Diamond -- junk
Then Iams -- worse junk
Then Nutro -- middle of the road junk
Then Canidae -- disgusting junk

I tried grain free:
Solid Gold barking at the moon, in their foil bag -- junk
Wellness Core -- overpriced junk
Taste of the Wild -- disgusting Diamond brand junk
Prarie Raw Instict -- not really all that bad. 

I also tried other foods not grain free like chicken soup -- diamond yuck brand junk
And Breeders choice Avoderm 
Royal Canin -- junk junk junk
Bil-jac - junk. 

All I can really come up with is that there are some pretty impressive marketing tactics in the dog food racket. 

I have seen dogs live 14 and 15 healthy years on Dads and Purina -- corn!

And other dogs, being fed awesome foods, with a disgusting number of problems.

My brother's dog Jazzy is ten years old now, going strong and eating Purina One. She hasn't had vaccinations, or flea or heartworm prevention in probably five years now either. I do not think Scarlet has been to the vet since I gave her to them. Could be wrong about that, but she is doing great on Purina. 

I just have to wonder if we all have been had by the dog food marketeers.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Thus the reason I make my own food now - I trust myself to take care of my dogs. And I know my ingredients are human grade (other than the green tripe). 

Here is how I make my food now 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...our-new-meat-grinder-results.html#post1975610


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

selzer said:


> This is a anti-grain thread, but I am going to play:
> 
> The first ingredient in my dog food is Cornmeal. The corn is NOT GMO.


Saying something is NOT GMO begs the consumer to assume that somehow GMO corn is less good without providing any scientific proof. So where is the proof? It doesn't exist. "NOT GMO" is just marketing hype.

Every company regardless of size is going to market - some spend millions and some under market. Some will find ways to scare people while others will find ways to make you feel better with pretty pictures.

This is not meant to be critical of your choice - I recommended it to you awhile back before I stopped feeding it. And I'm so glad it is doing good for your babes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, but there is a whole paper on the corn they use. I know that corn has caused issues with Diamond, recalls, 100+ dogs dead due to aflotoxin because of moldy corn. 

They say that corn is a cheap filler. But corn that is not GMO is not nearly as cheap. 

Unfortunately, most of your dog food review, and dog food analysis looks only at the ingredients and how they are placed on the list. There is NOTHING about the quality of the ingredients. One can put two tons of rotted beef in the cooking vat, it will not necessarily make a better food because beef is higher on the list than rice or wheat or cornmeal. 

I do not buy anything with molassis in it, becuase that is usually added to mask the flavor of rotted meat or rancid fat. If the food has meat in it, good meat, and fat that has not turned, dogs will eat it without something sugaring it up.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

The issues with Diamond was the mold/toxin that can happen with any grain (although I think the type of toxin is different by grain). That happens due to storage conditions, weather/humidity, etc. and the grain got contaminated - it had nothing to do with GMO vs. NON GMO. And from what I had been told by another pet food company was procedures had not been followed properly. If they had been followed the issue would have never happened. 

Cost doesn't mean better. Smaller outfits are going to pay more because they buy less. Larger firms get economies of scale and can demand lower pricing. Plus a seller can easily put a premium on a product if the perception is it is safer or somehow superior when in reality it isn't. 

Another reason I like fresh raw for my dogs - it is best. Meat Meals are cooked at least twice - once to make it a meal and then again to put in a kibble. No wonder some dogs can be allergic to chicken meal and not raw chicken! The proteins have been so screwed up with all the cooking - not very natural.


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

GoSearchk9 said:


> I actually asked her if she wanted to see my poop after I ate corn to show how well we digest it LMAO :rofl: She wasn't so amused :wild:


Corn isn't good for us either... It may taste good but in the end it is just overgrown GRASS. About the only good thing corn is good for is Ethanol!


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Selzer I agree with you on beef and chicken being top allergens. In fact I believe that beef is the #1 allergen right now. Every dog is going to react to a diet differently. Some dogs do great on non grain diets, others do poorly. Im not saying that you can ONLY feed a non grain diet...my parents also had a Cairn Terrier that they fed run of the mill Purina to that lived 17 years. She had HORRIBLE allergies (although I believe they were environmental but cant be positive, they never tested her). Do I know how long she would have lived on a quality diet? No! She could have died younger, she could have lived longer....I just believe that there really is no place for grains in a diet..can you feed it SURE why not..if it works for your dog dont change it. I believe that most grains have no beneficial to a diet and have no real bioavailability to our dogs..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> .
> 
> Corn, no matter how many ways people try to argue it...is used for one purpose in dog food: it is a cheap filler. Plain and simple. Science Diet and Purina would not use it if it cost 4 times as much.


Corn is cheap, but over the last few years has been going up in price. I wonder what they'll use when it becomes too cost effective to use, paper pulp?


Samba said:


> well, there are plenty of dogs living very well without eating grains. You can tell her that grains are obviously not a necessity for those dogs.


My dogs don't eat grains(they are rawfed), they thrive on what I feed them~ however the animals they eat were raised on it, I'm sure.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

atravis said:


> ORGANS are consumed first, and stomach lining, but NOT stomach content.
> 
> Once again, I reference Mech. The man's been studying these animals for over 30 years. I'm inclined to take his word for it.
> 
> ...


 
I understand you read about Mech and the wolves and yes if there are a large group of wolves on a kill, some will be at the hind end and some will be at the front of the kill but this is because they all want a peice of the pie, I myself ( I have a biology degree) along with the PA Game Comm, did a 3 year study on the coyotes in PA. I am not going to argue the fact or debate it but they most certanly do eat the stomach content of the dead animals along with the lining, large and small intestines and anus. Through video and still photos you can clearly see them open the animal up and start at the innards and move back to the rear then to the front of the animal. This may take several days if there were only 2 dogs on the carcass. You are correct in saying that there aren't much grain in an animals belly if it were sick but it is eaten none the less. I also hope your not under the assumption that the coyotes are only taking down the sick? They do this yes but also and more so they take the young along with eggs from turkey and other birds.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I have a rescue that is eating a fresh meat diet and I see how fresh is doing him best. But that doesn't mean that my way is the only way.

Just wanted to throw that out there that I just don't trust the advertisements or gimmicks companies use to try to bring you in. After all it is a business. People are working for a living. I remember many reading how a real popular brand of premium food with grains cost about $10 a bag to produce, yet they sold it for $40. So we know that the markup is HUGE for most of the companies out there. I would think the more FRESH meat AND meat meals in the food the less the markup is going to be.

Of course you have to take into consideration vitamin and mineral premixes as well. But with a raw diet you don't have to really worry about that - you can put that extra expense into fresh food that mother nature designed with all the nutrients pet needs without having to add it back in after cooking.

In the end - folks are going to do what is best for them and their dogs. I'm just glad I've opened my eyes, ears and brain enough to learn a few things before I enter old age.

It has been a roller coaster for me. And I'm thankful my vet is supportive of my food choices. She really liked it when I showed her how I made their food (she comes to my house). It is sad when some vets are not open to different feeding options.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> Corn is cheap, but over the last few years has been going up in price. I wonder what they'll use when it becomes too cost effective to use, paper pulp?
> 
> My dogs don't eat grains(they are rawfed), they thrive on what I feed them~ however the animals they eat were raised on it, I'm sure.


:rofl: So they get those darn grains somehow! just kidding.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Well most grain free kibbles have a ton of other stuff than meat in them, so her argument about that is ridiculous. As far as grains...one could argue easily humans could easily get by without them provided that they have a sufficient supply of carbohydrates coming in from other sources such as sweet potato and beans.
> 
> I'm curious for people that are pro grain...what exactly do they think the nutritional value they provide for dogs? Again, a lot of them have very little value for humans yet alone dogs who do not process grains nearly as well as we done. I wouldn't mind seeing high protein complex grains such as quinoa in dog food. But that would be extremely non cost effective.
> 
> Corn, no matter how many ways people try to argue it...is used for one purpose in dog food: it is a cheap filler. Plain and simple. Science Diet and Purina would not use it if it cost 4 times as much.


Listen, dry dog food has to be at a least 30% starch & fiber or else it cant be made without falling apart.

One could argue that potato is a filler because compared to rice & corn, potato is much less valuable to any mammal.

Look at the facts. Both potato and rice/corn can be used in excess. By the way potato is far cheaper than the grades of rice and corn used in high quality foods.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Feeding kibble has trade offs - you know that it is going to include some filler no matter how pretty folks try to make it look. Without it you aren't going to get the kibble like Sable123 mentioned above. You also have to add back to it the vitamins and minerals lost in the cooking process.

Feeding kibble also has benefits - it is convenient. It can be consistent, especially for dogs that need it, etc. There are many health reasons why some really need to feed specific kibbles they found works for them. Plus it can be relatively cheap depending on what is fed. And in these economic times, as long as a dog doesn't go hungry that is a good thing.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

rjvamp said:


> Feeding kibble has trade offs - you know that it is going to include some filler no matter how pretty folks try to make it look. Without it you aren't going to get the kibble like Sable123 mentioned above. You also have to add back to it the vitamins and minerals lost in the cooking process.
> 
> Feeding kibble also has benefits - it is convenient. It can be consistent, especially for dogs that need it, etc. There are many health reasons why some really need to feed specific kibbles they found works for them. Plus it can be relatively cheap depending on what is fed. And in these economic times, as long as a dog doesn't go hungry that is a good thing.


Your right. And if I may add that the people that say "I would never feed my dog grains ever"!!! But then turn around and feed him or her chicken and rice or beef and rice, what did they just do......they added grains to their diet. Hey I feed Orijen and it is supposed to be grain free but who knows? I just want the best for my dog but if I have to feed her some grains than so be it, it will not kill her.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Denali Girl said:


> I understand you read about Mech and the wolves and yes if there are a large group of wolves on a kill, some will be at the hind end and some will be at the front of the kill but this is because they all want a peice of the pie, I myself ( I have a biology degree) along with the PA Game Comm, did a 3 year study on the coyotes in PA. I am not going to argue the fact or debate it but they most certanly do eat the stomach content of the dead animals along with the lining, large and small intestines and anus. Through video and still photos you can clearly see them open the animal up and start at the innards and move back to the rear then to the front of the animal. This may take several days if there were only 2 dogs on the carcass. You are correct in saying that there aren't much grain in an animals belly if it were sick but it is eaten none the less. I also hope your not under the assumption that the coyotes are only taking down the sick? They do this yes but also and more so they take the young along with eggs from turkey and other birds.


Raw Feeding at its finest-CAUTION-GRAPHIC PHOTOS - Dog Food Forum

Obviously, these "facts" of your are not written in stone.

Once again, the very observation that some wolves ARE going to be getting the rear, or the neck, or the head more often than not, still proves my point. Are these wolves any less alive because they are eating the muscle meat? If the breeding female TRULY is the only one who gets to eat the intestines and stomach content, and if you are arguing that they are a NECESSARY part of the animal's diet, then in theory, no other member of the pack should be surviving, due to such a massive deficiency.

Furthermore, MANY, if not ALL obligation carnivores ingest stomach content at one point or another when eating prey. Cats eat whole mice, crocodiles eat whole zebra. Are you going to make a point and argue that they, too, _need_ grains in their diet as well?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

rjvamp said:


> Feeding kibble has trade offs - you know that it is going to include some filler no matter how pretty folks try to make it look. Without it you aren't going to get the kibble like Sable123 mentioned above. You also have to add back to it the vitamins and minerals lost in the cooking process.
> 
> Feeding kibble also has benefits - it is convenient. It can be consistent, especially for dogs that need it, etc. There are many health reasons why some really need to feed specific kibbles they found works for them. Plus it can be relatively cheap depending on what is fed. And in these economic times, as long as a dog doesn't go hungry that is a good thing.


The best kibbles like Annamaet use a two-step process on grains so that assimilation is nearly 100% whether its rice, corn, oats, etc. Your dog will never know the source of nutrients when they are processed properly. Whole grains are preferred of course and clearly shouldn't be the core protein source. Did you know that if corn was the only source used the maximum crude protein the food could have is 8%. So clearly corn is not a major source of protein like people think.

Also, most dogs will never assimilate a 40% protein dry protein food. They just don't need it so don't waste your money on one. 

This next statement might shock some, but wolves would be lucky to be fed like our dogs. if Yellowstone supplemented the wolves diet with any good commercial meat-based kibble the population would sky-rocket.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

atravis said:


> Raw Feeding at its finest-CAUTION-GRAPHIC PHOTOS - Dog Food Forum
> 
> Obviously, these "facts" of your are not written in stone.
> 
> ...


OK first of all, I can't see the photos? If there is no coyote in the pic you can't just say a coyote did it, you will have to do some testing, find hair samples, stool samples or check bite patterns, there are many things out there that will kill and eat an animal. Also, I wasn't the one saying the breeding female eats this or that, I was saying the coyotes we observed did in fact eat the stomach contents of it's kills. And lastly I NEVER said they NEED grains, I said they can have them and survive.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Denali Girl said:


> OK first of all, I can't see the photos? If there is no coyote in the pic you can't just say a coyote did it, you will have to do some testing, find hair samples, stool samples or check bite patterns, there are many things out there that will kill and eat an animal. Also, I wasn't the one saying the breeding femele eats this or that, I was saying the coyotes we observed did in fact eat the stomach contents of it's kills. And lastly I NEVER said they NEED grains, I said they can have them and survive.



Sorry, you are right, that was someone else who said that.

And I, too, never debated that they COULD take in grains. 
My point was that they simply were not _necessary_, as some people seem to think they are.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> You are right and I myself do feed Orijen but IMO I don't think it will hurt a dog to have "some" grains in his or her diet. I know everyone compairs dogs to wolves and coyotes and there are some differences in temperament, but the digestive system is very close. You WILL find grains in a coyotes belly esp if he just ate a deer, turkey, rabbit etc. A lot of people think they eat the meat first but this is not true, they eat the innards (guts) first then move to the meat and bone. Anyway, most prey they eat are dependant on grains....so when they eat the stomach content they are actually getting grains in their diet. They will also eat nuts, corn, wheat if hungry.


The last deer carcass that was eaten, the coyote started on the back legs and worked forward. Never touched the stomach. This was just a month ago, 200 ft from my house.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your Vet wasn't amused by your comment but i certainly
am. ROTFL.



GoSearchk9 said:


> I actually asked her if she wanted to see my poop after I ate corn to show how well we digest it LMAO :rofl: She wasn't so amused :wild:


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> The last deer carcass that was eaten, the coyote started on the back legs and worked forward. Never touched the stomach. This was just a month ago, 200 ft from my house.


Ok so I am guessing you saw the coyote eating this? Did you see the coyote take the deer down or was it there dead already? Could this deer have gotten shot by a hunter and died there? Again, from the studies we did, when a coyote made a kill, he would open the animal up from the belly, this is the easiest way because it is so soft and once open it takes less time to eat more than if they hunkered down on a meaty bone.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

atravis said:


> Sorry, you are right, that was someone else who said that.
> 
> And I, too, never debated that they COULD take in grains.
> My point was that they simply were not _necessary_, as some people seem to think they are.


No Sir they are not necessary at all, that is correct.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I never said corn would be the protein source...only if it is corn gluten meal. Keep in mind that a 23% protein, 13% fat food contains about 43% carbs when looking at caloric distribution. My dogs don't need carbs - I'd rather give them the energy with meat and fat -what they naturally evolved to eat.

See German Shepherd Dog Food | Eukanuba.com for calories and caloric distribution of a 23/13 food.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

We have coyotes come into our yard to catch squirrels and they eat the squirrels starting from the head and working down. On the somewhat rare occasions that we find anything left over, it's either the tail or the stomach.


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

Hmm would be cool to feed my GSD squirrels and bunnies lol!


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

I got into the nutrition subject with my vet one time. He was not happy that I fed him raw and said "this little community (talking about where I live bc he's new) seems to be so set on feeding raw". He said in his opinion that its a "fad". That was when I started making my appts with the other vet


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I love it when they say it is a fad.....commercial diet is the fad....raw has been around since the beginning of time and it has been working just fine


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> No Sir they are not necessary at all, that is correct.


 
Exactly what Im saying. . They are mostly used as a filler, do help bind ingredients together and contribute carbohydrates but there are other ingredients that can do just that and have more nutritional value! 

Agree that its silly when people refuse to feed grains but do hamburger and rice :rofl: whatever floats their boat though .


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I have to say Im enjoying the debate about wolves/coyotes. I never really knew a lot of this information..but its fascinating


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> Wow-I would say that particular office is not only in the minority, but thieves, as well. We've never paid only $2 per bag & certainly didn't mark it up like that! Maybe he makes more $$ on the cardboard foods than with the medical side? Did you truly have access to the accounting part of the practice, or was this something that someone else told you?


:thumbup::thumbup:

10-20% markup is standard. And, yes I occasionally order food for a clinic!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

rjvamp said:


> I never said corn would be the protein source...only if it is corn gluten meal. Keep in mind that a 23% protein, 13% fat food contains about 43% carbs when looking at caloric distribution. My dogs don't need carbs - I'd rather give them the energy with meat and fat -what they naturally evolved to eat.
> 
> See German Shepherd Dog Food | Eukanuba.com for calories and caloric distribution of a 23/13 food.



Are your dogs heavily worked? If your dogs are not in top condition they won't be able to use fat for energy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How come is it that when people remove carbs from their diet, they can eat greasy eggs and bacon and steak and such and LOSE weight. But marry carbs to grease, and the scale goes up up and away. (Fried potatoes and onions in butter, my arch nemesis.) 

I know humans are not dogs, though both we and the dogs can certainly survive on diets containing meat or not containing meat. 

And if we believe at all in evolution, in the thousands of years that dogs have been domesticated, should we not believe that they will have adapted to eating whatever humans have and discard? 

Old Yeller was written before the fad of feeding dogs kibbled food, or right about that time. In the book, the mother allowed them to give the dog some corn bread. Of course the dog had other ideas of what he wanted to eat and they certainly included raw meat. But, it was not abnormal, even back before the almighty kibble began to feed dogs grains like corn and wheat. 

And if I stop at McDonalds, and get something for the dogs, I will get a cheesburger with nothing on it, and give them burger, cheese and bun. They scarf it all. And it never gives them any major malfunctions.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Im not completely understanding this post but let me try and respond. As owners I believe it is our responsibility to feed our dogs a quality diet. I dont think we should just give them whatever we have sitting on the table and think its great for them. There are many things that we eat that are not only unhealthy but literally toxic to them. I dont think we should expect them to evolve and eat what we eat.... Not only this, the cheeseburger thing AHHH can you say pancreatitis?!?! I know how my stomach feels after eating McDonalds..I definetly wouldn't give this to my dogs. Some dogs have stomachs of iron..other dogs can get pancreatitis if you look at them the wrong way! 

Im not sure we can use Old Yeller as an example here...I mean who knows how long he would have lived on a corn bread diet...if only he wouldn't of passed from the d*** rabies!!! :rofl:

Im not completely disagreeing with you though. Carbs of course will help with weight gain, and corn can and is used as a carbohydrate source. I think that there are BETTER choices of carbs in a diet however such as sweet potatoes (just 1 example). They have much more nutritional value...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, sweet potatoes. I am sorry, but I just cannot feed sweet potatoes. I have gotten sweet potato poo out there and it just grosses me out. LOL. 

as for a macdonald burger, or an ice cream cone from dairy queen, or the rest of my steak. Yes, my cornmeal fed dogs do not have any problem with eating such things. 

I can also feed them potato soup, beef stew, chicken soup, actually just about any type of leftovers. They do not get them often, except maybe Babsy. She does this thing with her eyes, and I have not figured out how to turn her down, yet. She eats spinach chicken with rice, fried baked chicken, and her favorite, chicken papricka.

Arwen was the dog with the iron stomach of my lot. She started out on Dads dog food, went to Diamond, then Iams, then Nutro, then grain free stuff, then Canidae, and finally Kumpi. She could pretty much eat ANYTHING, except the bones and fat from a rib roast.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Yes my son loves sweet potatoes so I am VERY familiar with sweet potato poo LOL!!!!! I dont think your dogs digest McDonalds better from corn, I just think your dogs were born with an extreme iron stomach!!! Some dogs are genetically more prone to pancreatitis (example schnauzers) while others you literally have to feed straight fat before it causes even the slightest bit of gas....just like me with hot stuff I guess :rofl: sorry probably TMI Is kumpi what you feed now? I was going to ask you that after your first post...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yes, I am feeding Kumpi. All my dogs are doing fine on it. And my parents' dog as well. 

Having to feed two or more types of food is just not something I want to do. So if I can find something that works well for them, I will leave it be.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I have never heard of kumpi...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is a small company in Colorodo. No recalls. Nothing from China. Not manufactured by Diamond.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

LOL gotcha


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Denali Girl said:


> Ok so I am guessing you saw the coyote eating this? Did you see the coyote take the deer down or was it there dead already? Could this deer have gotten shot by a hunter and died there? Again, from the studies we did, when a coyote made a kill, he would open the animal up from the belly, this is the easiest way because it is so soft and once open it takes less time to eat more than if they hunkered down on a meaty bone.


or the anus.we have raised sheep by the thousands and have seen tons killed by coyotes and wolves.even bears.if you see them in the back end they are eating it from the anus inwards.


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

tierra nuestra said:


> or the anus.we have raised sheep by the thousands and have seen tons killed by coyotes and wolves.even bears.if you see them in the back end they are eating it from the anus inwards.


 
Yes we have seen that as well. The anus and everything inside of it. We found cases where the rear up to the middle of the animal was clean....nothing but bone and the front wasn't touched at all but I am sure if there were more in the "pack" the entire body would be clean. It's cool to watch them eat, they eat fast and furious.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

I would love to see that! Denali girl do you still work with them?


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## Denali Girl (Nov 20, 2010)

No I actuall work in a prison now, well for the last 12 years anyway. In short, I went to school after high school and had big dreams lol but sometimes life gets in the way


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Yeah I understand that completely. I wanted to be a Marine Biologist LOL!! Dont you wish you could go back to being a kid and think that you can grow up and be whatever you want...**** I hate growing old


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

GoSearchk9 said:


> I would love to see that! Denali girl do you still work with them?


 since we were farmers,we really didn't love to see it but I understand that they are predators and yes we raise livestock and we have taken over their territory in many aspects.They are not doing it to be vengeful or malicious,they are just surviving as we are.we are in a proffesion that has draw backs and we just try to minimize them as much as possible with respect to the natural wild life(flora and fauna)we do not poison but use appropriate fencing and one predator control dog.and yet you still get the odd lamb missing.thats the way it is.I used to watch them down a lamb in pasture when I knew it was too late to do much to save the lamb.They went after the soft mammary glands and the tender flank area not the often the neck and jugular area but with all individuals things varied.

We also did grazing in forestry with sheep.yes they used sheep on the cutblocks to reduce competitive weeds that strangled out the seedlings.We then were in wolf and bear territory up in the mountains.I had a wolf pack in the area that became more and more well known over the months.It was not a large group maybe only 6 members but two of the members were oddities as far as wolfs gne was a white bitch and one was a little black bitch.Both of them were low on the totem pole and were always quite thin and mangy looking and were barely tolerated.They would run the forestry roads alot but became very aware that the sheep were easy targets even with predator control dogs around.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Im sure that you didn't enjoy them . Different life styles definetly give you different perspectives on things! What type of dog do you use for your predatory patrol? Did you ever have problems with bears too then?


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

LOL you've gotta love seinfeld.  oh how I wish I could have been that when I grew up...:rofl:


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Processed grain isn't a natural food for _any_ animal.

What I think most people don't understand about "grain free" foods is that they are not carb free. WDJ recently did an article on grain free kibble and some of them are pretty high in carbs. None are really low carb. I suspect that low carb kibble isn't really possible. Quality canned food can be quite low in grain and carbs because it is a less processed product. 



selzer said:


> as for a macdonald burger, or an ice cream cone from dairy queen, or the rest of my steak. Yes, my cornmeal fed dogs do not have any problem with eating such things.


 Likely the reason that they can eat such variety without issue is because despite feeding a commercial based diet, your dogs are offered variety as well. Dogs who get little to no variety often have problems with any type of different food.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Low carb kibble is very hard to find. I searched when we switched Banshee over due to probable return of mast cell cancer. Even the commercial RAW diets had more carbs than I was comfortable with.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> Processed grain isn't a natural food for _any_ animal.
> 
> What I think most people don't understand about "grain free" foods is that they are not carb free. WDJ recently did an article on grain free kibble and some of them are pretty high in carbs. None are really low carb. I suspect that low carb kibble isn't really possible. Quality canned food can be quite low in grain and carbs because it is a less processed product.
> 
> ...



There is a BIG difference between close to 50% carbs in the lower protein/fat kibbles and approx 25% carbs in the higher protein/fat kibbles. I do believe EVO has one that is only 15% or 18% carbs though.


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

GoSearchk9 said:


> Im sure that you didn't enjoy them . Different life styles definetly give you different perspectives on things! What type of dog do you use for your predatory patrol? Did you ever have problems with bears too then?


 we had komodors,maremmas.but it was the pyrs that were the best for the job.we had the odd bear attack.**** we even had a bear that would break into the trailers when you took the sheep out to graze up on one block,one guy stayed behind to sleep in once and he was in the trailer when the bear broke in the front door.


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## GoSearchk9 (Oct 20, 2010)

Thats crazy!! Yeah I heard the Great Pyrs were really good at that! They are gorgeous  Maremmas?? Never heard of them?


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## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

they are from italy originally and are livestock protection dogs but if you look them up on wiki,they have been used to protect penguins in australia!Seriously!Our sheep dog keeno is pyr/maremma cross.


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