# Another Heat Thread!



## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

Hi Everyone!

Milou is 6.5 months now and I am on the look out everywhere for the slightest sign of heat. Thus far I've seen nothing, no swollen vulva, no presenting her behind, no change in behavior etc. etc. We are still on the fence about spaying before/after her first heat but I know we want to give her as long as possible before we mess with her hormones and permanently alter her growth.

If she did go into her first heat, I am fairly confident that we would be able to handle it. Someone is almost always home, she is crate trained, we have a 6ft fully fenced in yard, and she is NEVER out unsupervised. To my knowledge, there are no stray dogs in our area. Were she to go into heat, her potty breaks in the fenced in backyard would be leashed and we would not be walking her. We'd have to stop going to her obedience class since there are several intact males and it would be unfair to everyone. 

That said, our almost year old neutered Sheltie Tintin has been trying to mount her several times today. It's not new behavior and she sometimes turns around and mounts him back, usually his head instead of his rear since she doesn't quite seem to get the concept. I have been taking this behavior as a sign of dominance instead of a coming heat. We were in puppy class today working directly next to several intact males and none of them showed even the slightest interest in her besides the "oh look there's another dog". 

We probably sound a bit paranoid but we do NOT want puppies. Not only do we know nothing about our girl's genetic background, there are way too many puppies in the world already and we would NEVER risk her health having a litter. One of my friends is currently in veterinary school and upon checking out Milou's goods admitted that while the official line is spay and neuter early to prevent unwanted litters, Milou's vulva looked too immature for her to recommend spaying just yet. Our vet cites the reduction in breast cancer risk as a reason to spay before first heat. My other friends breeder (Czech working line GSDs) who makes our raw food, says she wouldn't spay before first heat and that a raw diet reduces her risk of cancers overall. 

What do you think? Is Tintin's mounting a dominance thing? Any signs to look for in Milou? More thoughts on for or against spaying before first heat vs after?


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

ETA: Milou did have dandruff today, Saturday, for the first time. On Wednesday we brought her to a family party. One family member there told us that his wife currently as Typhoid Fever that she got from fleas. There have been 5 other reported cases and there is a flea epidemic in his area. A house was recently foreclosed near their property and the owner left behind all their animals, multiple dogs, cats, horses, bunnies etc. This family member took several of the animals to foster and unfortunately brought their fleas home with them. 

After telling us this, he brought two of his dogs (he has 12 dogs and 3 puppies) into the yard and let them play with Milou. While I'm sure he has flea preventative on them and I don't think we'll be getting Typhoid Fever, Milou is allergic to fleas so I was not comfortable, removed her as soon as possible, and when I got home I rubbed her down like a crazy person with diatomaceous earth, literally handfuls into her fur. DE is a drying agent so it makes sense that a few days later her skin would turn up dry.

I gave her an oatmeal shampoo bath this afternoon and her skin appears to be okay this evening.


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## WhiteShepherdSlave (Oct 8, 2011)

me next! jk. Its good her skin is getting better. I like to hear about such dedicated owners on here makes me smile and Typhoid fever is scary.


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

Still no signs of heat yet! She is going through a major growth spurt right now though so I'm wondering if her first heat isn't far behind. Anyone have first heat follow a growth spurt?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

My pup is 8 1/2 months and no sign of her first heat yet. Her mother didnt have her first heat until closer to 10 mos anyway. It can take up to the first 18 months for the first heat cycle. You will know when she is in heat, vulva gets swollen, discharge, nipples swell also (and will never be as tiny as they are now again). If you are fairly certain you can handle her heats and not risk pregnancy, then wait until she is done growing. If something were to accidentally happen, you can just spay then as well. You only need to wait until she is 18 months old or so.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I've personally have had GSDs start their first heat at from 6 months to 10 1/2 months. Siren started her first heat at 10 1/2 months. Unfortunately it lasted 6 weeks, so she was 12 months old when it ended.


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> I've personally have had GSDs start their first heat at from 6 months to 10 1/2 months. Siren started her first heat at 10 1/2 months. Unfortunately it lasted 6 weeks, so she was 12 months old when it ended.


Wow that sounds awful! If we let Milou go into heat I really hope it's quick and painless. She's not allowed to go to class in heat and she won't be going anywhere there might be intact dogs. Plus, where we live we have to license her but we can't do so until she's spayed. 

Would most people really recommend 18 months for females? I think they generally say 18 - 24 months for males but females are a little more up in the air.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm one that believes that hormones are for more than reproduction, so I believe in waiting to spay. Providing of course that you can guarantee there will be no "oops" litters. To me, having them be in heat ready isn't that big of a deal. And mine are 100% house dogs. (In other words, I don't just stick them in a kennel so they don't bleed in the house.)


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> I'm one that believes that hormones are for more than reproduction, so I believe in waiting to spay. Providing of course that you can guarantee there will be no "oops" litters. To me, having them be in heat ready isn't that big of a deal. And mine are 100% house dogs. (In other words, I don't just stick them in a kennel so they don't bleed in the house.)


I agree that hormones are absolutely for more than reproduction but I know we'd still like to get her spayed eventually. She's actually only the second animal we've brought home that didn't come to us already fixed from the shelter. The other was a kitten I rescued off my college campus and I had her spayed at 6 months. Having Milou intact goes against a lot of years of "fix fix fix!!" so waiting has been a tough sell to my DH and even my vet. 

Milou is absolutely a house dog as well so I think we'd have to go with doggie diapers or we'd be washing a lot of sheets. If she's not playing with Tintin in the backyard or out on a walk, she spends her days laying and napping on our bed, her giant dog bed next to our bed or in her crate which I'm pretty sure I could sleep in comfortably :wub:


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## catz (Dec 10, 2010)

Waiting on a first heat can be scary but having gone through 2 now I can tell you it really not a huge deal. Yes you have to be more vigilant but it'll be over before you know it. Rio's first heat was a breeze. We walked her past a few intact males (both on lead of course) when we were moving house and they didnt pay any attention to her. I expected dogs to be coming out of the woodwork to get at her but it was no where near that. 
Rio's second heat was a little more extreme with the amount of blood and the whining/clinging and we had one stray dog that hung around like a zombie for a few days but it was just a case of staying in the house without walks. No biggie.. 
Just a bit of moral support but you're clearly a very caring owner who is doing all the right things


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

My GSD female had her first heat at 9 1/2 months, my Leonberger had hers at 12 months. You will notice a first heat, especially if you have never experienced one, mainly because you always wait impatiently for the first one. After that you notice the signs she is going into heat...LOL

I am also one who thinks that IF YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE OWNER, you should let your dogs fully mature to 2-3 years old before speutering (you sound extra careful ). I have intact dogs and speutered dogs. My fixed dogs were from our local humane society and it was part of the contract that they be fixed at 6 months. Our non-rescue dogs (from breeders) will remain intact until there is a medical reason to have them otherwise.

I do plan on breeding my GSD (under the watchful eye of her breeder), but my Leonberger will never be bred. She is however, intact. I think its important for dogs to have their parts intact. I totally notice that my intact dogs matured better mentally, had better proportions physically and were all around better dogs to work with. Not that I dislike my rescues, they are amazing, but both are completely locked in their puppy stage and I am not a fan of that.

Here are some articles on the pros and cons of early speuter and speutering at all:

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf
http://naiaonline.org/pdfs/spayneuterage.pdf


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

Aaaand I'm not crazy! Milou just started her first heat. I was hoping she'd wait a little longer but no go. She just turned 7 months today. I was talking to her trainer and apparently dogs in heat ARE welcome in class. I'm not sure how I feel about that considering how many intact males there are but I'll keep it in the back of my mind.


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

As of today Milou has been bleeding for 10 days! I was hoping she'd be over the first stage by now, but no luck! It's not as awful as I pictured though, her flow has been so light that she's only needed a pantyliner in a pair of backwards boy's briefs. I'm actually starting suspect that this might be a split heat and she'll start really bleeding in a few weeks though she's certainly swollen enough for this to be a full heat. 

After speaking to her trainer and the head of the obedience club, we decided to take her to her obedience graduation on Saturday. She did wonderfully, she hasn't had any behavioral changes and hasn't gone selectively deaf for her commands. There were several intact males in the class and none seemed the slightest bit interested in her except possibly one. 

One handler was there with her 8 month old intact Collie after having missed a number of classes and was upset that her dog was not well behaved. Upon hearing that Milou was in heat (hard to miss her bright purple undies!) the handler claimed that Milou was bothering her dog so we had to work separately from the class. While I was expecting dogs to come out of nowhere to try and jump her, I think the Collie was faaaar more interested in the cheese balls we were using for a nice leash walking exercise. We had to scoop them up from a bucket and walk back to deposit them in a bowl on the ground while our dogs walked nicely next to us. The Collie kept straining towards the dropped cheese balls and hoovering them off the ground so I think his owner was just using Milou as an excuse. 

Either way, Milou got her own private obstacle course that we got to run through over and over while the other dogs took turns. We wove through cones, jumped agility jumps with 2 bars and practiced her stay. She even won first prize in our game of musical hula-hoops after sitting (almost) perfectly in each hoop. 

Her intermediate obedience class begins on the 12th and I'm really hoping she's over her heat by then. As much as I enjoyed having her own private session, one of the benefits of the class is the socialization she gets and I don't want them to keep singling her out.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Doesnt sound like a split heat if she has been bleeding for 10 days already. When Yoko was younger, she was in standing heat at around 12-16 days. Now a bit older she isnt in standing heat until about day 27 or so. Then the heat lasts only another week out from that. Remember, every female is different. Every heat can be different with that same female. 

Careful with the jumping. At this young age you dont want to stress out her joints with excessive jumping, or jumping high. They can also become a bit lax in thier joints when in heat as well. Dogs have to learn to work through distractions when training, and females in heat is one of those distractions. If all the dogs are younger in the class, they may not know the 'smell' yet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Milou's vulva looked too immature for her to recommend spaying just yet.


I am late to this thread, but what did you mean by this? We've had girls come into rescue with ultra small vulvas and no issues due to that. My 9yr. old sheltie mix has a very small vulva and has no problems.
I'm not sure what having a small vulva has to do with anything related to spay?


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I am late to this thread, but what did you mean by this? We've had girls come into rescue with ultra small vulvas and no issues due to that. My 9yr. old sheltie mix has a very small vulva and has no problems.
> I'm not sure what having a small vulva has to do with anything related to spay?


I think what they meant by that was that her vulva was closed and tilted up, no swelling or signs of maturation to a more adult composition. I don't think it was the size itself since I think that just depends on the dog. 

I think she also had a bit of an innie, not a lot, but enough of a crease that I would have wanted her to go through a heat cycle even if I didn't already want to give her time to mature. She definitely doesn't have one now so I'd say it worked lol.


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

Hello everyone! Got another question for those more experienced owners. How can you tell when your female is finished with her heat? Milou hasn't been bleeding for about a week and a half but I noticed that she had a little bit of clear sticky discharge. Just enough for me to notice while I was rubbing her belly and wipe with a tissue. Should I take this as a sign that she's still in heat and thus still fertile? We just started walking her again since it's been a month since she started bleeding and none of the intact dogs in her new class showed any interest in her.


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