# Any other positive trainers of working lines?



## glowingtoadfly

If you work with clicker training/ positive only methods, what have your experiences been with this type of dog? How do you handle discipline? What role does exercise play in discipline and how often and how do you exercise your dogs? Where do you train?


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## glowingtoadfly

Or if you have a show line, a rescue, a farm line like my in laws lol... Positive trainers of German shepherds?


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## glowingtoadfly

Or those who do not subscribe to pack leader beliefs and question NILIF?


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## wolfy dog

I am all for clicker training and have trained many like this for the last 15 years successfully. My only experiences with WLs are my own WD and DDog, the new pup. I have come to realize that just clicker training doesn't cut it. Especially DDog accepting being handled. Sometimes I just do it and reward him for cooperating (as if he had a choice  ) as I am getting nowhere with clickering in some departments. DDog is in fact the first dog in all these years that I cannot easily manipulate with the clicker as I could will all other dogs I have worked with. I see the prong in his future, and would never have thought in a million years that I would ever say this. WD was more compliant but once in a while I grabbed him too after he grabbed me as a pup.
I am curious too to hear others on this topic.


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## Baillif

Positive punishment is still positive. Does that count?


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## glowingtoadfly

Lol I don't judge.


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## wolfy dog

Not for me.


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## glowingtoadfly

My girl also struggles with being handled sometimes, Wolfy Dog. How did you " handle" that?


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## mego

Baillif said:


> Positive punishment is still positive. Does that count?


:rofl:


As a psychology major, I smile when people know the correct terminology. I've always gotten a chuckle out of "positive only" being incorrectly said for positive reinforcement only.

Anywho. The topic... I don't have a working line, but I think it depends on the dog for this (isn't that always the answer?). I always tell people I teach with positive reinforcement only but I proof with positive punishment. I don't correct my dog unless she knows what I'm asking and has already learned something via marker training.


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## glowingtoadfly

I wasn't a psych major, and have studied some about positive punishment too... But yes, I was incorrect. Marker only training with time outs?


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## mego

glowingtoadfly said:


> I wasn't a psych major, and have studied some about positive punishment too... But yes, I was incorrect. Marker only training with time outs?


Oooh I wasn't making a comment at you or anything, I was just more saying that the terminology is pretty confusing because unless people actually look it up, it's usually assumed that "positive" is about the feeling etc rather than adding stimulus to a situation. I just smile because I remember so many classes of kids raising their hand and being confused by this, thats all!! 


and what specifically are you trying to 'discipline"?


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## glowingtoadfly

Mouthing. It's gotten better with work, more exercise, a brother to appropriately mouth, a behaviorist who used a clicker, redirection. But she still seems to try to play/ discipline me with her teeth.


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## Sri

We did mostly positive training with our working line puppy, and if we get another puppy I believe I would do even better with positive training because I know now with experience how and what to work on with a puppy. I started using the prong a few weeks ago for dog- dog reactivity(more like excitement), but this is after many months of counter conditioning work. I love how ours is at home, he is very obedient, eager to please. Yes I do NILIF. I don't particularly think about dominance, only about the behavior that needs correcting. They all have their personalities. And they learn pretty quickly if you teach them what you would like them to do instead of the behavior that is unacceptable to you. Eg : instead of jumping on counters, settle. sit for petting instead of bumping into my legs, etc.

Oh ofcourse, I did (and still do) use verbal correctors like "NO!" and "uh uh". At home he is pretty much calm and well behaved.


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## jafo220

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I have a W/L - S/L. His working lines have seemed to dominate his personality. He is also a nipper mouther. I was instructed by our trainer to grab his collar and control him that way when he gets in one of his modes. He's still much a puppy. The collar seems to work good but the trick I read on this site about "sitting on the dog" works great.


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## Merciel

I don't have a WL dog. I have an insane GSD mix that I got from the pound. I train force-free, which is to say that I do not use physical punishment, pain, or fear to get compliance from my dogs. I _do_ use both positive and negative punishment, strictly defined, but I try to do as little of that as possible and it's pretty much always in the form of verbal no-reward markers, resets/time outs, and body blocks.

I train with people who have dogs ranging from ultrasoft Shelties and poodles to working-line Mals and GSDs. It is possible to train all of these dogs very successfully with force-free techniques; I watch people doing it weekly. And it's possible to fail, too, although I tend not to see much of that anymore since by the time people get to the classes I'm in, they're already pretty far along.

_How_ you do it is beyond the scope of a post on an Internet message board (and besides that I have enough actual work to do tonight that I don't have time to write a 2000-word treatise on the subject), but yes, it certainly is within the realm of human possibility.

My feeling is that if you're new to training, then you have complete freedom as to what skills you want to develop and how dedicated you want to be in learning those techniques. You can do whatever you want and you can get as good as you want to be.

Once you have invested significant time, money, and energy into mastering a particular set of techniques, then it becomes much more difficult to unlearn old habits and give up old beliefs to change over to a new set of techniques. But if you're coming at this new, and looking to build a skill set from the ground up, then figure out what you want to do and how you want to do it, and you can find a way to get there.


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## martemchik

From my experience...some discipline is necessary if you're going to excel at a high level when competing...especially in AKC obedience events. I trained my dog with positive methods, but I will correct him for not doing things that I know he knows. His obedience is very good and he knows enough commands now that I can verbally fix any kind of mis-positioning and then reward when he's in the correct position.

Where in Wisconsin are you? Where do you train? Just from my observations...I have competed against a lot of people that train in the area at the new "positive only" training places. Their dogs just don't have the same level of accuracy that mine does, and so I tend to get more points and have higher placements because my dog has been corrected from bad behaviors. I've seen dogs do a lot of things in the ring, that IMO are very difficult to solve without a correction...mostly stemming from the fact that a treat isn't available, and the dog knows it, so it doesn't perform the exercise as well as it would if that treat was there. But that might also be because they haven't weaned the dogs away from treats and just go into the trials too quickly.


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## glowingtoadfly

Sitting on the dog? What does that entail? I couldn't find it


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## glowingtoadfly

I am in Milwaukee, and we just signed them each up for a class at the humane society. We tried the local GSD club but for various reasons having to do with class size, methods, her ability to focus in such a busy atmosphere we pulled her out and just worked with a behaviorist for awhile and trained at home.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> I've seen dogs do a lot of things in the ring, that IMO are very difficult to solve without a correction...mostly stemming from the fact that a treat isn't available, and the dog knows it, so it doesn't perform the exercise as well as it would if that treat was there. But that might also be because they haven't weaned the dogs away from treats and just go into the trials too quickly.


Yes, this is a pretty common issue. It stems from insufficient ring prep -- the dogs haven't been specifically taught to deal with the scant reinforcement allowed in the ring and the long periods of silence from their handlers.

It's just a proofing issue. You don't need to rely on physical punishment to correct the problem but you do need to have correct foundational training and lots of ring prep, which is lacking in many R+ schools mostly because some regions don't have that many advanced trainers using those techniques yet. In regions that have more experienced force-free instructors, you tend not to see that issue pop up as often, because the teams have been prepped to handle it.


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## wolfy dog

glowingtoadfly said:


> My girl also struggles with being handled sometimes, Wolfy Dog. How did you " handle" that?


Ahum.. have someone holding him and me sanding his nails. One foot at a time. Rewards for being calm.


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## misslesleedavis1

Why would someone question NILIF? 
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## glowingtoadfly

I just read a book called Plenty in Life is Free, by Kathy Sdao. She trains other animals besides dogs, like dolphins and walruses. Her basic point is that you don't train an animal that is larger than you by using NILIF, so why train dogs that way? Interesting read, and gave me food for thought.


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## misslesleedavis1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I just read a book called Plenty in Life is Free, by Kathy Sdao. She trains other animals besides dogs, like dolphins and walruses. Her basic point is that you don't train an animal that is larger than you by using NILIF, so why train dogs that way? Interesting read, and gave me food for thought.


I will check that out!

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## gagsd

I utilize clicker/marker training with very few corrections during obedience. I practice MILIF (most in life is free). 
Working lines dogs do just fine.


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## Blitzkrieg1

And then you look at the majority of people that are successful in their training both in real life and sport and you realize...


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## glowingtoadfly

We use " oops" as a no reward marker. I do grab her collar and use a firm no when she mouths, and sometimes if she is super amped, I sing to her to calm her down and then she rolls over on her side and relaxes. Sometimes physically hauling her into a time out room gets her too excited.


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## crackem

glowingtoadfly said:


> I just read a book called Plenty in Life is Free, by Kathy Sdao. She trains other animals besides dogs, like dolphins and walruses. Her basic point is that you don't train an animal that is larger than you by using NILIF, so why train dogs that way? Interesting read, and gave me food for thought.


I'd like to know her reasoning. Patricia McConnell made a great point one time about training dolphins. If you don't like how things are going, you pick up your bucket of fish and walk away.

Think about what that means.


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## Zlata

I train using force-free methods as well. My good friend breeds Aussies and does conformation, rally, and herding with them (and has many titles) and is force-free, too. I think like someone said earlier that it really depends on the dog. With my current GSD, I learned very quickly that any physical corrections riled him up even further. I quickly discontinued use of the prong for this reason. I know the prong can work miracles on some dogs, but it really made most of our issues worse.

When he went through the puppy stage and was nipping greatly, I remember that so many people suggested yelping or grabbing the snout and giving a tight squeeze. Yelping made him hyperactive and the biting got worse. Grabbing his snout and squeezing riled him up to the point where he went ballistic. I worked extensively with a private trainer, and the biggest thing that helped curbed inappropriate nipping (aside from redirection) was a physical time-out. He had to be given time alone to a. let those adrenaline levels reduce and b. realize that when he acted that way, his favorite thing (me!) went away. 

Anyway, my point is is that different dogs respond differently to different training. Mine responds very well to marker training, body blocks, time-outs, and flat out being ignored (worse punishment for him--ever. Me not paying attention to him is akin to the ninth circle of ****!  )


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## glowingtoadfly

I think her point was that you don't have to be so regimented about it that it takes the joy out of working with your dog. She did use rewards for good behavior.


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## crackem

So then her title should have been "NILF, but don't be so **** grumpy about it" or something like that 

Saying most things in life are free, and hinting at marine animals, but then neglecting that they'd starve to death if they didn't work for you is a bit disingenuous.


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## Zlata

crackem said:


> I'd like to know her reasoning. Patricia McConnell made a great point one time about training dolphins. If you don't like how things are going, you pick up your bucket of fish and walk away.
> 
> Think about what that means.


I am not disagreeing with you, but I do remember that excerpt in Blackfish where the trainer, Dawn Brancheau, did not reward Tilikum with fish when he missed a cue/did not execute a trick properly. Tilikum later lashed out and killed the trainer. I'm not sure if anyone has seen that documentary or remembers that segment (also not suggesting that correlation = causation.) But interesting to note... maybe you don't want to walk away from the Orcas with your bucket of fish!


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## crackem

I'd definitely think twice


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## glowingtoadfly

Plenty in Life Is Free: Reflections on Dogs, Training and Finding Grace:Amazon:Books
My kindle charger was chewed by The Grim, or I would find a quote that fits the discussion, but a better synopsis than I can provide is in the book description for those whose curiosity is piqued. At first, I was right there with you on questioning NILIF, but this book is seriously good.


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## Merciel

crackem said:


> So then her title should have been "NILF, but don't be so **** grumpy about it" or something like that
> 
> Saying most things in life are free, and hinting at marine animals, but then neglecting that they'd starve to death if they didn't work for you is a bit disingenuous.


Not "most" but "plenty."

It's not a bad book but it's pretty thin and I don't think there's anything in it that would be new to you. It's been a year or two since I read it, but iirc it's mostly just about remembering to be flexible and appreciative and allowing dogs to be dogs sometimes. Which is a good message, and a necessary corrective sometimes (at least for me!), but I remember getting to the end and thinking I kind of wanted my ten dollars back.


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## glowingtoadfly

Lol, it was cheaper on kindle. Not saying i'm throwing the baby out with the bath water as far as withholding rewards for behavior I don't want repeated. Just saying that I think there can be too much NILIF to the point of being OCD.


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## crackem

Too much or not enough of anything usually yields less than what's expected . nilf or milf included


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## Serbrider

I mix and match my technique depending on the dog at hand.

My older dog was trained in the past (by my father) with a very heavy hand. So if you roar and rage, she becomes meek and in the past used to fear pee. I have worked her out of that, but there are times, where she KNOWS what I'm telling her to do, I have asked nicely, and there's a time and place to bring in the big guns, and in a big booming voice I will let her know. Works wonders for her. 

For my new puppy, she is very forgiving, learns quickly, but does sometimes get way too into something, and ignoring doesn't work for her. She bites down on me too hard in play or excitement (I teach bite inhibition, where the moment they feel skin they do not bite, but only mouth, since I want to be able to mess around with and play with my dog's mouths, not have them fear my hand coming near it because of demanding no mouth contact at all), and I have quickly jerked my hand away and gave her a wack. It knocked her out of her overly excited state, she stood there for a moment, and then I encouraged her back to play. She's a very happy and flexible puppy, and took it all in stride, and since that time, she's been a lot more careful about the way she mouths me. Not out of fear, but out of "oh... that ended play time for a while". But had I just gotten up, or moved out of the way, or ignored her, like I have done before... she still sees that as a game. Not game over. So I used what worked with her.

I don't beat my animals, 99% of everything I do is verbal or using hand signals. However, I demand respect from my animals. I give puppies leeway, I am gentle and slow when they are learning, but once they know, and push the boundaries of respect, I will correct them.

For example... I have a horse. She is usually awesome at feeding time. Knows to give me space and wait until I have put her food away, and she's not allowed to rush it or me. We established this from the start. A new horse came in, started stealing some of her food (I quickly adjusted after the first day and they both get plenty), but a few days later, she became very pushy. Trying to grab hay out of my hands, pushing me over. She's 1400 lbs or so. I'm about 15% of her size. If she pushes me, it's dangerous. So while I am all for positive reinforcement training, I have used a whip on her to remind her that my space is my space, and I demand respect.

I have not used a whip on any dog (soft bouncing on their back in play doesn't count). Because they are not 1400 lbs. My life isn't in danger if they push me. However, if they are not listening to me, stuck on something, I will correct them, and physically. It's not abusing them... it's reminding them.

I'm firm. I'm not mean. I'm positive and upbeat... but if my animal is being rude or disrespectful, they will know.


Also, I adhere to the NILIF concept. It's not pack leader, it's not crazy "I rule the world"... it's making sure they know that what they want, they have to work for. And sometimes the only "work" that they do is being respectful and having manners.


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## glowingtoadfly

My girl used to bruise me up pretty heavily- My arms used to look Like I used heroin or was a domestic abuse victim. I'm so glad she has gotten better. And I never had to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her. Just some rules and some singing and a brother and she has become much more gentle. Thank you to everyone who responded. I'm sure I will post about her progress and about her new little brother!


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> My girl used to bruise me up pretty heavily- My arms used to look Like I used heroin or was a domestic abuse victim. I'm so glad she has gotten better. And I never had to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her. Just some rules and some singing and a brother and she has become much more gentle. Thank you to everyone who responded. I'm sure I will post about her progress and about her new little brother!


Thats new...I wonder if the singing is positive punishment or reenforcement from her perspective..


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## Serbrider

glowingtoadfly said:


> My girl used to bruise me up pretty heavily- My arms used to look Like I used heroin or was a domestic abuse victim. I'm so glad she has gotten better. And I never had to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her. Just some rules and some singing and a brother and she has become much more gentle. Thank you to everyone who responded. I'm sure I will post about her progress and about her new little brother!


I'm glad you have made progress... but while there are normal scratches and bruises just due to puppies being... well... puppies... but regular bruising all along the arms? While I'm NOT saying you need to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her, IMO it should never have gotten to that point. IMO it's unhealthy to have absolutely nothing but positive in any animal/human's life. I'm not saying you need to have negative... but there needs to be a neutral or "not now" state.

If you aren't comfortable reinforcing your puppy in the way I have (which worked perfectly for my girl, and it wasn't a smack, more of a "yelp then push away quickly" type of movement), that's perfectly fine. However... just letting it continue and singing?? I have never heard that method before... and I fear it could backfire. What happens when she tries to go after another human being... or a child. Not necessarily to bite, but not listening to you. Will you just crouch down and go all "aww... sweet baby" and start singing?????

Negative reinforcement is important. It should only be used as REINFORCEMENT though. I know people who smack dog's butts to get them to sit... when the dog hasn't learned the sit yet. That's negative training, and has no place in training. But when the dog does know sit, and decides to ignore you and do what he/she wants... a negative reinforcement can definitely be needed... to show you mean business. Especially for a working dog.


I'm just not understanding why you would go through such a long time of letting your dog use you as a chew toy... because, while GSDs are landsharks and put their mouths and teeth on everything... the bite inhibition and creating those boundaries from the start is one of the most important things I ever do with a dog... and I just can't comprehend why it wouldn't be for someone else...


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## glowingtoadfly

The bruising mouthing happened in the first months we brought her home as a very wily, under socialized out of control teen. We have only had her for nine months and she is much improved. One of her triggers was our busy, dog dense neighborhood at our old house. We recently moved to an area near a forest with a bigger yard, and she no longer bruises me. The singing? I will say no and grab her collar so she can't mouth anymore. This causes her to roll over on her side and become deadweight because she refuses to go into a room for time out. If i try to drag her into the room she gets more amped. The singing happens the instant she stops and rolls over, and calms her down. Other methods I've used are no, sit, then tossing her ball when she sits, saying no, then giving her timeouts in the yard, because she will let go with sparkling eyes when I say outside, then stand pouting at the door when I then refuse to come out and play ball because she mouthed. Works like a charm. As for smacking dogs I saw a Michael Ellis video where he talks about what you are describing- he describes it as like a reset button?


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## GatorDog

Serbrider said:


> I'm glad you have made progress... but while there are normal scratches and bruises just due to puppies being... well... puppies... but regular bruising all along the arms? While I'm NOT saying you need to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her, IMO it should never have gotten to that point. IMO it's unhealthy to have absolutely nothing but positive in any animal/human's life. I'm not saying you need to have negative... but there needs to be a neutral or "not now" state.
> 
> If you aren't comfortable reinforcing your puppy in the way I have (which worked perfectly for my girl, and it wasn't a smack, more of a "yelp then push away quickly" type of movement), that's perfectly fine. However... just letting it continue and singing?? I have never heard that method before... and I fear it could backfire. What happens when she tries to go after another human being... or a child. Not necessarily to bite, but not listening to you. Will you just crouch down and go all "aww... sweet baby" and start singing?????
> 
> Negative reinforcement is important. It should only be used as REINFORCEMENT though. I know people who smack dog's butts to get them to sit... when the dog hasn't learned the sit yet. That's negative training, and has no place in training. But when the dog does know sit, and decides to ignore you and do what he/she wants... a negative reinforcement can definitely be needed... to show you mean business. Especially for a working dog.
> 
> 
> *I'm just not understanding why you would go through such a long time of letting your dog use you as a chew toy... because, while GSDs are landsharks and put their mouths and teeth on everything... the bite inhibition and creating those boundaries from the start is one of the most important things I ever do with a dog... and I just can't comprehend why it wouldn't be for someone else...*



This for me too. My dogs are not allowed teeth on me after puppyhood, meaning once the adult teeth are in. Yikes.


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## Sri

glowingtoadfly said:


> The bruising mouthing happened in the first months we brought her home as a very wily, under socialized out of control teen. We have only had her for nine months and she is much improved. One of her triggers was our busy, dog dense neighborhood at our old house. We recently moved to an area near a forest with a bigger yard, and she no longer bruises me. The singing? I will say no and grab her collar so she can't mouth anymore. This causes her to roll over on her side and become deadweight *because she refuses to go into a room for time out. If i try to drag her into the room she gets more amped.*



I can't imagine ours viewing being put outdoors as a timeout .

Have you considered leaving a leash on her? That way you can walk her to the room. This is what I do with ours for any time out. Just put a leash on him and walk him to his mat/ playpen. (Perhaps because I did so much loose leash walking at home with good treats, he follows me quite willingly on the leash even when he is being recalcitrant.)

With ours during his mouthing and jumping phase, he did get a lot of time outs in his crate or playpen, and although it was in the common area we completely ignored him then. So we could be doing his favorite activities, eating, playing with a ball or just sitting on the floor and chatting but we wouldn't even look at him. Some times 5 minutes, some times twenty or more, depending on his state of mind.

One other thing I worked on(and don't know if you did this with yours) is teaching 'gentle'. Started when he was in a calm state of mind. And now I can use it when he starts to mouth or is greeting children.


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## Baillif

crackem said:


> I'd like to know her reasoning. Patricia McConnell made a great point one time about training dolphins. If you don't like how things are going, you pick up your bucket of fish and walk away.
> 
> Think about what that means.


Sea world trainers starve em for performance reasons all the time and are supposedly the best trainers out there.


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## glowingtoadfly

Do Some Dogs Need a Heavier Hand? | Nicole Wilde
This.


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## GatorDog

glowingtoadfly said:


> Do Some Dogs Need a Heavier Hand? | Nicole Wilde
> This.


Yet another article relating wolf behavior to a domesticated dog.

A dog chewing on you out of redirected frustration is not the same as as aggressive dog or as a wolf, as the article is clearly referring to. Its about a lack of control and respect. A wolf wouldn't get excited by the busy street you live on and turn around to bruise you up, and if it did, you would end up in a hospital. And beating the crap out of an aggressive dog isn't going to make it trust you. That's just common sense. I also don't see how using techniques other than "purely positive" equates to manhandling or beating up a dog?

So no, I do not think this article has any relation to dog training at all. Wolves do not equal domesticated dogs. Period. But if someone would rather take the "gentle" approach by just letting their dog beat them up, then have at it.


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## glowingtoadfly

Does YOUR Dog have PDS? | Wilde About Dogs
And this. We use a similar approach.


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## glowingtoadfly

Never said I judge others techniques. Just questioned smacking a puppy.


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## GatorDog

glowingtoadfly said:


> Never said I judge others techniques. Just questioned smacking a puppy.


I'm talking in relation to the author of that article. She leads to say that any handler who doesn't stick with "gentle" or "purely positive" methods "are only trainers who need more knowledge and a lighter touch."

Which is just ridiculous.


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## Baillif

I dont like to marry myself to any particular style of training with any dog. Get to know the dog first see what he responds to well and what he doesnt respond well to. How drivey is it for toys? For food? How does it respond to pressure? Can it take pressure and continue to work or does it supress and shut down? What brings it back up again? There are tons of things to consider each dog is different and you cant cookie cut training and expect great results over a large cross section of dogs. Not all dogs are going to respect or respond to the gentle approach for all instances of behaviors you need trained.


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## glowingtoadfly

Ah, I see. I think dog rearing is like child rearing. Some parents spank, some don't. And there are always lively discussions about whose methods are best.


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## Baillif

Its not a question of what method is best its a question of what method is best for a given dog in a given situation.


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## glowingtoadfly

Right...for example, we noticed that Skadi mouths more when she is overstimulated, which tends to happen more on busy streets, so we figure she isn't ready for busy streets yet. She has not mouthed once on a forest walk in a month and now, if she starts getting bored or overstimulated on a walk, instead of mouthing, she will politely ask for her ball by sniffing your pocket. A definite improvement.


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## glowingtoadfly

Some trainers would think she should be walked on busy streets in a prong and corrected every time she starts mouthing.


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## Serbrider

Read that second article you shared... and I'm kinda flabbergasted. She mentions using an "eh-eh" sound and staring at a dog as being harsh. Necessary, but harsh. ??? I use my voice all the time with my dogs. For praise as well as correction (I do not scream at my animals, I use sounds, like a "ch" or "eh" or similar to stop them doing something). But any kind of correction whether verbal or physical is harsh??? This I have a problem with.

I get the whole anti-spanking thing, and I do agree with it... for the most part. But for that to actually work, boundaries still need to be enforced. If a kid directly disobeys you and gets another cookie... you can't just say "ok... we're going to time out now billy" and when he collapses and refuses to move, all singing will do is reinforce that bad behavior of refusing to come with you. And so they never actually learn that disobeying you (or the law) is a bad thing... because you never enforced the rules you gave.

Your dog probably used you as a chew toy because of stress... and there's less stress in the new place, so less need to chew. What happens if you take her back into a high stress area? Not high danger, just high stress. The outside of a dog park. The city square, etc. I am just not convinced right now that she knows not to bite... and that just seems like an accident waiting to happen.


There's positive training... and then there's making your child/dog live their lives without any consequences. Consequences can be VERY few and far between. But at the same time... need to be established once the dog understands what you're asking.


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## Serbrider

The prong and correction on a busy street? Umm... no. Your dog is not at that point since she mouths every time she's in a busy area, and while prongs are great tools, I personally don't ever use them, and for most dogs, don't see the need to. That's where I reinforce good calm behavior, and slowly introduce stimuli. She starts having problems, don't take away the stimuli, but continue working on it. Make her do things for you. Make her learn that she needs to ignore things.

The biggest part of this is to go SLOWLY. You can't just go straight from a forest to a New York city highway.

BUT... I wouldn't just stay in the forest. My dogs live my life with me. While I would never push a dog too out of their comfort zone (little bits at a time work wonders for confidence), and would never punish fear, I do expect my dogs to adapt to my life. Not me to theirs.


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## glowingtoadfly

The prong thing was an example. I think when she has had two months without mouthing in the forest we will test her a bit. Something we also do is step on the leash if she starts, something our behaviorist told us to do.


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## carmspack

Yes - Serbrider .

I don't have the land sharky stage - I am not a chew toy .
Ending that mouthing behaviour on yourself does not impact on bite inhibition in sport or real situations . 

The correction is quick and decisive , over in a moment .

Someone in another thread said the mother dog will gently pull the offending pup away. What ? A lightning quick , clear message , snap is more like it , and then carry on without any residual mood or feelings.

The Nicole Wilde -- I have the Wolfdogs A-Z --- and have browsed through another . Nothing really great .


----------



## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> I will say no and _grab her collar_...


To me, that isn't force-free training. Grabbing the collar is still intimidating and immobilizing. It's not the same as an alpha roll, but it's still a physical correction, isn't it?


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes. I try to give time outs when I can but sometimes I have to immobilize her.


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## glowingtoadfly

She has improved a lot. It's good to hear from so many people who are passionate about dog training and have been doing it longer than I have.


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## carmspack

yes blanket back , the dog is not learning how to resolve the problem so goes into learned helplessness . A correction shows the right way , not a penalty or punishment . 
You want to use raising children. Babies will grab hair , bop , head smack , bite your chin , smack your face -- you tell them no , don't do this -- you don't banish them to their crib till they understand (connection not made) and you don't punish them - you show them what is appropriate and how you want and need to be treated. You make them civilized.
Dogs living in civilization need to be civilized . They can't be wild free agents . 

Pretty much what Sebrider has said on this thread can be moved over to the early socialization thread.

You show the pup what you want and expect right from the start. You don't provide something producing an expectation and then take it away .


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## glowingtoadfly

Something I've done is train her to give kisses instead. She has been doing well with that.


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## glowingtoadfly

... And we didn't have her right from the start. We adopted her as an unruly adolescent.


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## carmspack

kisses , ewww , from the dog's perspective she is not kissing , the lick is a calming signal .

It can't be working because the problem continues.


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## glowingtoadfly

Our behaviorist told us that licking calms them, yes.


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## glowingtoadfly

I think not mouthing on a walk in a month is great progress.


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## Blanketback

OP, I wasn't picking on you - I was just pointing out that by avoiding smacking and alpha rolling doesn't mean that the training is 'force-free' when there's so many other little things that are indeed 'force' and heavy compulsion is just the extreme end of the spectrum.


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## glowingtoadfly

Doesn't Turid Rugaas say that she taught her dog to exchange calming signals with her? We do that often!


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you Blanketback


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## carmspack

"Our behaviorist told us that licking calms them, yes"

it is to calm YOU . Something you are doing is stressing the dog to the point of asking for relief . You like it thinking the dog is smooch kissy and so your demeanor softens .


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## glowingtoadfly

Carmspack, could you go into exactly how you would handle this situation please?


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## misslesleedavis1

carmspack said:


> "Our behaviorist told us that licking calms them, yes"
> 
> it is to calm YOU . Something you are doing is stressing the dog to the point of asking for relief . You like it thinking the dog is smooch kissy and so your demeanor softens .



May be a bit off topic but I have read that a dog that wants to calm another dog will practice lick licking the nervous dog, 

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## carmspack

which one ?

yes I will take the time but I am just on my way out the door .
will later on.


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## Blanketback

No prob 

I used to think the NILIF concept was a fad invented to sell more training books, lol. Since I never actually read one, I never grasped the idea behind it. But I realized that I do actually practice this theory in some manner every day, lol!

For example, my pup isn't allowed to rush through the front door, ever. This is important to me since the front of my property isn't fenced and there could be dogs or horses or any other 'must be inspected now' things out there. So he has to wait until he hears the release word to go outside. It's awesome to have a dog that will freeze in place when the door is opened, trust me, lol. 

I also used to think that being held back from their food until released was mean. Ha ha, that's so not true! It turns out, with my fussy eater, that if he's waiting until the release to get to his food, the value of that food is raised considerably. Who knew? Lol! But he's happy to get it now, instead of lingering around the bowl.


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## carmspack

No "wants to calm another dog will practice lick licking the nervous dog, " the other way around


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## glowingtoadfly

.. And yes, I taught her to lick on command with a clicker.


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> Yes, this is a pretty common issue. It stems from insufficient ring prep -- the dogs haven't been specifically taught to deal with the scant reinforcement allowed in the ring and the long periods of silence from their handlers.
> 
> It's just a proofing issue. You don't need to rely on physical punishment to correct the problem but you do need to have correct foundational training and lots of ring prep, which is lacking in many R+ schools mostly because some regions don't have that many advanced trainers using those techniques yet. In regions that have more experienced force-free instructors, you tend not to see that issue pop up as often, because the teams have been prepped to handle it.


Meh...I know what you're saying, but too many times positive only trainers don't have extremely powerful breeds. I know the best of the best can train their dogs in that way, but I'm yet to see a novice handler that would be able to grasp all the techniques and be very successful.

I also know there are trainers that won't allow a "no" as a correction...it gets that extreme. Which I just can't understand.

I'm all for no-force if your dog can't take a correction. But if your dog is able to take a correction, I think you'll have a much higher rate of success if you do correct certain behaviors.

I also have a hard time believing that a dog can go sans corrections when its in high drive. Things like obedience/rally/agility...easy to reign the dog in with your voice or a toy. But when it comes to higher drive sports, an extremely focused dog, such a high level reward standing in front of the dog...no physical correction would be very difficult. I can see obedience training in that situation, but it would take a lot of food drive on the part of the dog to overcome the fact that a helper might be standing 10 feet away.


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## misslesleedavis1

carmspack said:


> No "wants to calm another dog will practice lick licking the nervous dog, " the other way around


Okay, 

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## Blanketback

I know we all have different views on what's right or wrong to do to our dogs, but who's to say that this 'only positive' method is even correct? In nature, an animal that never learns what to avoid won't be long for this world. It seems reasonable that our dogs should learn what to avoid as well, by giving a correction. I'm not saying we should beat our dogs, lol, but avoiding even saying 'no' seems very strange to me.


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## martemchik

Yes...I believe that the more nervous dog is the licker. The calmer dog is the lickee.

I've seen this in practice as my "new" member of the family does lick the dog that's been with us for longer and the older one is much calmer. He even opens his mouth and lets her lick more. I believe the theory is that there are calmer endorphins in the saliva of the other dog which have a way of calming the other dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

This.

Then there's the handler's abilities such as timing, consistency and ability to correct OR reward with the right speed and intensity. If the handler isn't consistent or quick enough no matter what method used it mucks up the results.

I would venture to say, though, based on speaking with folks who've been involved in bite sports a long time with dogs and having watched some of these dogs in person now, the 'not for the average dog owner' type dog (myself humbly included).....some of those dogs would steam roll the average Victoria Stillwell type trainer, me thinks.....




Baillif said:


> Its not a question of what method is best its a question of what method is best for a given dog in a given situation.


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## glowingtoadfly

... Were we ready for our dog? No. Have we done our best to step up to the plate for her? Yes! Would we do it again? Yes, in a heartbeat


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## Gwenhwyfair

One thing for sure is through this experience you will become a better trainer with dogs.

Previously I had had dogs that were very much 'people pleasers', high pack drive you could say. Good food drive. My first GSD, American Show Line, was the easiest dog I've ever had. The harshest 'correction' with her was a firm "no". She practically trained herself it felt like. The family dogs we had previously were poodles so....pretty darn easy to train.

Then came my Smitty dog.......total opposite....I had to shift gears but in his way he taught me a lot more then any other dog I've had.




glowingtoadfly said:


> ... Were we ready for our dog? No. Have we done our best to step up to the plate for her? Yes! Would we do it again? Yes, in a heartbeat


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Our boy is a people pleaser, cuddler extraordinaire.


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## misslesleedavis1

In every animal planet I have ever watched there is always hard corrections being used by animals that are in packs. Boundaries set every living thing on this planet up for success! I did get a brief chance to look into plenty in life is free. It was interesting, I think its something dogs earn if that makes sense. I don't let my dogs get away with demanding attention from me...when they are in the house they hang out in different parts and relax thats 99.9% of the time..if one of them comes over to me for a micro second and wags his tail and puts his head on me I dont ignore it I usually scratch his head and tell him he is handsome then he will go away and lay down. Its a slice when they do because as I said it really never happens. My trainer is not a clicker and treat trainer, when she tells her dog to do something the dog does it, they get no cookie...That's the way it rolls with her. Now im no dog extraordinaire and I have had speed bumps but for the most part my dogs are not crazy bad dogs that are chaos and havoc around the house.

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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't remember if Victoria Stillwell was on Animal Planet or not? She's absolutely against any kind of physical correction.

All I know is that whole 'turn the back' thing when they were jumping up and being 'naughty' had me ending up with scratches on my back! LOL!


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## misslesleedavis1

Also I like that my trainer does not use treats while training, she does use a ball as a reward for her dog, he goes thru class does what is asked then at the end he gets his ball, he loves his ball 

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## misslesleedavis1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I don't remember if Victoria Stillwell was on Animal Planet or not? She's absolutely against any kind of physical correction.
> 
> All I know is that whole 'turn the back' thing when they were jumping up and being 'naughty' had me ending up with scratches on my back! LOL!


Lol my son does this to his best friends over happy lab, he turns his back and ends up getting the dog more wound up then it started out. The dog is 100% treat trained though. He is not stupid though he knows Evan does not have any treats for him. 

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## glowingtoadfly

Right now, my crazy girl is nicely settled onto her rug relaxing after a long morning appropriately mouthing and playing with her little half brother. We often use a ball to reward good behavior. She once dropped her ball off of a boat and had to be held back from jumping off the boat into the middle of the lake. You can teach this girl anything using a ball! <3


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## carmspack

hi - the more information you can provide about your dog the better the answers will be .

give information about what and how you have trained so far.
information on issues
information on the "behaviourists" credentials and track record and advice they have given -- don't name the person 

Behaviourists have become a growth industry . There are some real scary guys out there putting up the shingle. 
Even a Vet college certifiec behaviourist gave advice over the radio for a thunder frightened dog to be kept company with in a darkened closet . You were to join the dog.

what ..... ???? 

some behaviourists are all academic and have never nor could train a dog .


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## misslesleedavis1

Everything that has to do with learning is a positive experiance and will benefit / influence future choices. I think. Goes for dogs too. 

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## glowingtoadfly

She came to us trained by our breeder for a little while. She knew sit, down, stay, and come. I trained her to spin, up, circle me, target my hand with her nose, give kisses, and heel off leash in the house. Her recall is so good that she is a great trail dog when we are at our cabin. We took a one time clicker training recall class at the humane society. She came with poor leash manners, mouthing, and hand shyness. Our breeder was honest with us about all of this. The behaviorist we used was Beth with Wild Canine out of Milwaukee. The Humane Society recommended her to us when we called their behavior line about the mouthing.


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! I know some dogs think it's funny they can train YOU to spin around, WHEEE!

BTW- treat training is a good thing in my world. Like anything else if done incorrectly you can have problems but with really fast dogs like Malis and some of the WLs that are eye blink fast you can reward faster with food and more repetitions. More repetitions help shape the behavior faster and then you can move on.

Then over time you wean off the treats, decrease frequency and I know a lot of trainers when they decrease frequency start using ball/tug more often as the reward.




misslesleedavis1 said:


> Lol my son does this to his best friends over happy lab, he turns his back and ends up getting the dog more wound up then it started out. The dog is 100% treat trained though. He is not stupid though he knows Evan does not have any treats for him.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## misslesleedavis1

You know I have never givin dexter a treat for doing something...I wonder if I screwed him up in some way  

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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Meh...I know what you're saying, but too many times positive only trainers don't have extremely powerful breeds. I know the best of the best can train their dogs in that way, but I'm yet to see a novice handler that would be able to grasp all the techniques and be very successful.
> 
> I also know there are trainers that won't allow a "no" as a correction...it gets that extreme. Which I just can't understand.
> 
> I'm all for no-force if your dog can't take a correction. But if your dog is able to take a correction, I think you'll have a much higher rate of success if you do correct certain behaviors.
> 
> I also have a hard time believing that a dog can go sans corrections when its in high drive. Things like obedience/rally/agility...easy to reign the dog in with your voice or a toy. But when it comes to higher drive sports, an extremely focused dog, such a high level reward standing in front of the dog...no physical correction would be very difficult. I can see obedience training in that situation, but it would take a lot of food drive on the part of the dog to overcome the fact that a helper might be standing 10 feet away.


I don't think there are too many novice handlers using _any_ set of techniques who grasp all of them and are very successful. Being a "novice" is by definition incompatible with actually knowing what you're doing. I've been at this for a couple of years and I still totally suck. 

re: working high-drive dogs of "powerful" breeds... it gets a lot more complicated than holding out a cookie and hoping like **** that your dog's going to call off a bite because he wants the treat. Again, you need to have a strong history of correct foundational training if you want to walk that road.

I plan to try it, and I've seen it done and know it's possible. But I _also_ very much plan to start with a puppy and build up the foundations I need from day one. I am guessing (underline the "guessing") that if you're starting with an 18-month-old green dog who's used to doing things another way, it might be a whole lot harder.

Ultimately I'm not that interested in arguing that a particular set of techniques is universally better or worse than another, because IMO such discussions tend to devolve into lots of heat and not much light. You can get to the same place by walking many different roads. As long as a person is working with genuine respect for their dog's perspective and needs (i.e., the dog is not being treated as an inert extension of the person's ego and something less than a living, thinking, feeling being), great, do what works for you and makes you happy.

But I do think that people who want to try doing things in a particular way should be encouraged to go ahead and give it a try. What's the point of naysaying? It _can_ be done, if you really want to do it and are willing to sink in the necessary investment of time and effort to build the skills for success.

So my attitude when people want to make the attempt is: sure, go for it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Probably not. 

It's just a faster method if you think about it. I'll see if I can find the Micheal Ellis you tubey discussing it and link here......



misslesleedavis1 said:


> You know I have never givin dexter a treat for doing something...I wonder if I screwed him up in some way
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## glowingtoadfly

Beth is very much a positive clicker trainer. She clicked and treated for four on the floor, and reccomended lots of hand targeting, which has really helped bring Skadi back when she is over threshhold. She reccomended matwork, which we used but stopped when she figured out how to settle in the house from this training. She told us to step on the leash when she mouthed on walks, which helped. Skadi is so attached to her ball that she sometimes has mouthing tantrums if she loses it ( we often let her carry it on walks to give her a job) so stepping on the leash until she calms has been a great solution. She also told us to use an Elizabethan cone and a lick stick when she was constantly Over threshhold on walks when we lived in a more urban environment and the mouthing was worse. She had me click and treat Skadi for releasing me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

You've made some very enlightening comments in the past on this topic, and have brought balance IMHO.

Having said that, I do believe there are some dogs that even with the foundation laid by a very good trainer like yourself, they're gonna see through the 'game'.

There are just some dogs that are too 'serious'. Though admittedly those dogs will be fewer and farther between (I'm thinking Drago vom Patriot as possibly a current example from what I've heard in person from knowledgeable folks who have used him as a sire and/or seen him in person). 

I think with the right handler AND the right dog your goal is very achievable. 

So.....when you going to get that puppy?  






Merciel said:


> I don't think there are too many novice handlers using _any_ set of techniques who grasp all of them and are very successful. Being a "novice" is by definition incompatible with actually knowing what you're doing. I've been at this for a couple of years and I still totally suck.
> 
> re: working high-drive dogs of "powerful" breeds... it gets a lot more complicated than holding out a cookie and hoping like **** that your dog's going to call off a bite because he wants the treat. Again, you need to have a strong history of correct foundational training if you want to walk that road.
> 
> I plan to try it, and I've seen it done and know it's possible. But I _also_ very much plan to start with a puppy and build up the foundations I need from day one. I am guessing (underline the "guessing") that if you're starting with an 18-month-old green dog who's used to doing things another way, it might be a whole lot harder.
> 
> Ultimately I'm not that interested in arguing that a particular set of techniques is universally better or worse than another, because IMO such discussions tend to devolve into lots of heat and not much light. You can get to the same place by walking many different roads. As long as a person is working with genuine respect for their dog's perspective and needs (i.e., the dog is not being treated as an inert extension of the person's ego and something less than a living, thinking, feeling being), great, do what works for you and makes you happy.
> 
> But I do think that people who want to try doing things in a particular way should be encouraged to go ahead and give it a try. What's the point of naysaying? *It can be done, if you really want to do it and are willing to sink in the necessary investment of time and effort to build the skills for success.
> *
> So my attitude when people want to make the attempt is: sure, go for it.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

She can also hold a down for five minutes. She loves to work on down stays with her ball. She also knows " watch". She struggles with being handled still a bit. We handle her while feeding her every night and morning and use a clicker training protocol for handling her that Beth taught us.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yeah Merciel, get that puppy! You sound like you deserve one greatly after rescuing. Grim is soooo easy and lovely and he keeps my spirits up when my little girl is having a bad day


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's long but worth the time to view and pertinent to the discussion, IMO.

Michael Ellis discusses using food and conditioning.

(btw disclaimer - I don't think Michael Ellis is the end all be all in all training BUT he does have a way of breaking things down in a methodical way which really is good for us beginners. He's also pretty pragmatic, as in this video, admits that a lot of this is NOT totally new.....)


----------



## blackshep

carmspack said:


> Behaviourists have become a growth industry . There are some real scary guys out there putting up the shingle.
> 
> some behaviourists are all academic and have never nor could train a dog .


 Thanks you! This is so true! 

Book smarts vs street smarts. 

What bugs me the most is some of them have obviously never actually handled a strong working dog who's in drive, and their advice is utterly useless for that dog in that moment, and it sets dog and handler up for failure after failure. Ask me how I know! 

The same correction on a hard dog in drive, would make a softer dog crumble. The appropriate correction for the softer dog, would be like throwing cotton balls at the harder dog in drive, they wouldn't even notice.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Having said that, I do believe there are some dogs that even with the foundation laid by a very good trainer like yourself, they're gonna see through the 'game'.
> 
> There are just some dogs that are too 'serious'. Though admittedly those dogs will be fewer and farther between (I'm thinking Drago vom Patriot as possibly a current example from what I've heard in person from knowledgeable folks who have used him as a sire and/or seen him in person).
> 
> I think with the right handler AND the right dog your goal is very achievable.
> 
> So.....when you going to get that puppy?


Maybe, maybe not.

I know for a fact that there are plenty of dogs that _I_ can't handle. I suck. I can't even handle my own dumb crazypants mutt half the time. No illusions on that front. So sure, I would absolutely without the shadow of a doubt totally fail. No question. 

But I'm not comfortable speaking in absolutes for anyone else. Who's to say what Drago would have become if he'd been raised by Susan Garrett from puppyhood? We know that brains are plastic and susceptible to rewiring via life experience and memory. How far can you go with that? How much can you do? Especially with a dog who has _very_ strong potential motivators, no fear, and remarkable environmental hardness?

I don't know. No one will ever know. It's a pure hypothetical.

As for when I'm getting a puppy -- probably not for a long time. We're a two-dog household and both of the current idiots are still in good health. Despite my attempts to get rid of Crookytail by putting him in a bacon sweater and kicking him out as bear bait in the Poconos, he's still with us, so it's likely to be quite a few years before Imaginary Future Puppy approaches reality around here.


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## glowingtoadfly

Beth also made the suggestion that we give raw bones to give her something to chew on besides us. This has also helped immensely. We have seen some resource guarding ( she came to us resource guarding her ball too, but we have moved past that now with protocols) but we are working on feeding her treats while we touch her bone, trading, etc


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## Gwenhwyfair

First of all, clearly you do NOT suck! Oh my gosh if you suck then I'm hopeless! It's just that I agree with you that there's a continuum. On that continuum it's about matching up the right dog with the right trainer.

I'm sure you've experienced the dogs that make you 'look good'? I mentioned my ASL GSD I had years ago. She was so easy, loose leash walking, well she never pulled to begin with! So yeah she made me look like a super duper dog trainer, whereas Smitty made me feel, for a long time, like an abysmal failure. I thought I lost my mind with that dog! 

It is hypothetical but much less so when you have numerous people who are very experienced with strong/serious dogs say "now that's a serious dog" lets just call it a sign or strong circumstantial evidence!  Especially given he's been closely followed by top trainers and breeders in the U.S. and Germany so he's not a dog that has been hiding. He's pretty well known and observed so....I'm going to lean to it's genetic. 

My experience comes more from the horse world, there are just some animals who either have no sense of self preservation, or just know they are powerful. 

Therefore, looking at the continuum in total I feel it's reasonable and realistic to say there will be some dogs, genetically speaking, that won't do well without using physical corrections at some point. Granted they'll be the more extreme end of the continuum but that does not mean they do not exist.

Well, I'm looking forward to you taking this from hypothetical to reality with your own puppy. 



Merciel said:


> Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> I know for a fact that there are plenty of dogs that _I_ can't handle. I suck. I can't even handle my own dumb crazypants mutt half the time. No illusions on that front. So sure, I would absolutely without the shadow of a doubt totally fail. No question.
> 
> But I'm not comfortable speaking in absolutes for anyone else. Who's to say what Drago would have become if he'd been raised by Susan Garrett from puppyhood? We know that brains are plastic and susceptible to rewiring via life experience and memory. How far can you go with that? How much can you do? Especially with a dog who has _very_ strong potential motivators, no fear, and remarkable environmental hardness?
> 
> I don't know. No one will ever know. It's a pure hypothetical.
> 
> As for when I'm getting a puppy -- probably not for a long time. We're a two-dog household and both of the current idiots are still in good health. Despite my attempts to get rid of Crookytail by putting him in a bacon sweater and kicking him out as bear bait in the Poconos, he's still with us, so it's likely to be quite a few years before Imaginary Future Puppy approaches reality around here.


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## glowingtoadfly

Well, we have officially found a place and a trainer for schutzhund for Skadi and Grim through this thread. So glad I found this site.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I'm sure you've experienced the dogs that make you 'look good'?


No, actually. I have not had that good fortune yet. Sure do hope to in the future, though. 

I've tried to compete with a whopping total of two dogs so far. Pongu's crazy and Crookytail's got the keen competitive edge of a melted chocolate hammer. I don't think either of them makes me look particularly good, although that's mostly my fault anyway so whatever, I'm okay with that outcome. It's fair.

As far as Drago goes, I'm not going to argue with you. I've never met the dog. And I do think that with some dogs, if you don't get into that window of puppyhood malleability, it becomes much more difficult -- maybe even prohibitively difficult -- to go force-free later in life. Pretty much all I feel safe saying for sure is that I just don't know.

I guess my feeling overall, though, re: saying it's not possible to do X or Y or Z, is that it would be excessively presumptuous for me to say what someone else can or cannot do. I feel pretty comfortable acknowledging when _I_ can't do something, or when a task is difficult, but I am reluctant to tell somebody else over the Internet that their goal is outright impossible. 

I don't know that person. I don't know what they can do. So philosophically my preference is just to leave the door open to the possibility.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well that maybe a good thing. I was lucky and it spoiled me and then confounded me for many years with my 'free spirit' Smitty dog. I was very much more into horses when I got Smitty though. I wish I had learned the techniques that opened the door for he and I much earlier....but water under the bridge now.



I look at it this way: Just as it's not correct to assert it is impossible for you to achieve your goal with A dog, it's also not correct to assert that every dog could succeed without any physical corrections.

Or, as Aristotle put it: "Finally, if nothing can be truly asserted, even the following claim would be false, the claim that there is no true assertion."

I rest my case.  






Merciel said:


> No, actually. I have not had that good fortune yet. Sure do hope to in the future, though.
> 
> I've tried to compete with a whopping total of two dogs so far. Pongu's crazy and Crookytail's got the keen competitive edge of a melted chocolate hammer. I don't think either of them makes me look particularly good, although that's mostly my fault anyway so whatever, I'm okay with that outcome. It's fair.
> 
> As far as Drago goes, I'm not going to argue with you. I've never met the dog. And I do think that with some dogs, if you don't get into that window of puppyhood malleability, it becomes much more difficult -- maybe even prohibitively difficult -- to go force-free later in life. Pretty much all I feel safe saying for sure is that I just don't know.
> 
> I guess my feeling overall, though, re: saying it's not possible to do X or Y or Z, is that it would be excessively presumptuous for me to say what someone else can or cannot do. I feel pretty comfortable acknowledging when _I_ can't do something, or when a task is difficult, but I am reluctant to tell somebody else over the Internet that their goal is outright impossible.
> 
> I don't know that person. I don't know what they can do. So philosophically my preference is just to leave the door open to the possibility.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

btw- if you got a minute, watch the M. Ellis vid. I posted at least the first few minutes.

He gives a nod to the non-bite sport or agility/OB world.....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Congrats! I hope you enjoy your new adventure with your dogs. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Well, we have officially found a place and a trainer for schutzhund for Skadi and Grim through this thread. So glad I found this site.


----------



## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Having said that, I do believe there are some dogs that even with the foundation laid by a very good trainer like yourself, they're gonna see through the 'game'.
> 
> There are just some dogs that are too 'serious'. Though admittedly those dogs will be fewer and farther between (I'm thinking Drago vom Patriot as possibly a current example from what I've heard in person from knowledgeable folks who have used him as a sire and/or seen him in person).


It's less about foundation and more about the reward. Certain activities/sports require much less drive and much less instinct than others. Therefore, a foundation in obedience and focus/reward is very good to help the dog hit exact spots and positions. But when you're talking about activities that involve a dog's natural instincts, foundation can be a huge detriment...it will hold the dog back.

My dog was ready for his CDX before we started any type of bitework training. And although my rewards in training obedience was playing tug and making sure to keep his drive up...there's nothing like trying to control him while a helper is around. No amount of waving his favorite tug in front of his face will get him to truly forget that there's a much more fun activity just around the corner.

And I'm saying this as someone that does believe in positive training...I just haven't seen 100% positive used on a dog that has been exceptional at bite sport. There is just a different balance of foundation/obedience/natural instinct necessary for high level work in that sport.

As an example...I know of a dog that is very good in protection. Got his SchH2 with 290+. But the handler had to increase the amount of obedience with him and he started to glance back at the handler when in a bark/hold and other pre-bite exercises. He did this because he started to expect another command rather than focusing on using his natural instinct in the protection exercise. This is something that in my opinion would be very hard to avoid if you were really laying a solid foundation towards obedience.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That doesn't mean it could not be done though, but I throw in the caveat of _with the right dog_.

Which sort-a puts me in the middle between your premise and Merciel's.  

(in edit and I think there's some daylight between 100% positive and force free that Merciel refers to as well)



martemchik said:


> It's less about foundation and more about the reward. Certain activities/sports require much less drive and much less instinct than others. Therefore, a foundation in obedience and focus/reward is very good to help the dog hit exact spots and positions. But when you're talking about activities that involve a dog's natural instincts, foundation can be a huge detriment...it will hold the dog back.
> 
> My dog was ready for his CDX before we started any type of bitework training. And although my rewards in training obedience was playing tug and making sure to keep his drive up...there's nothing like trying to control him while a helper is around. No amount of waving his favorite tug in front of his face will get him to truly forget that there's a much more fun activity just around the corner.
> 
> And I'm saying this as someone that does believe in positive training...*I just haven't seen 100% positive used on a dog that has been exceptional at bite sport. *There is just a different balance of foundation/obedience/natural instinct necessary for high level work in that sport.


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## Baillif

No dog or trainer to my knowlege has ever won worlds or nationals for that matter at a bite sport with 100% force free training. Doesnt mean its impossible but some serious stars would have to align.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> No dog or trainer to my knowlege has ever won worlds or nationals for that matter at a bite sport with 100% force free training. Doesnt mean its impossible but some serious stars would have to align.


If they did I would question the quality of such a dog..


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## Baillif

If it did it in a ring sport i wouldn't.


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## Merciel

Baillif said:


> No dog or trainer to my knowlege has ever won worlds or nationals for that matter at a bite sport with 100% force free training. Doesnt mean its impossible but some serious stars would have to align.


Well, sure. And I'll readily concede that I don't know much at all about bite sports, so (again) I'll just put that out there at the beginning.

At the same time, I want to quibble just a little with this line of reasoning because I think there are a number of underlying assumptions that make it a not quite apples-to-apples comparison. Martemchik's post earlier in the thread touched on some of the same issues, and I _do_ know a bit about competition obedience, so this response is really meant for both of those posts.

First, consider the culture of the sport. Competition obedience is slightly hostile to force-free training in some regions (I've gotten snarky comments directed at me personally, and I'm in a pretty friendly region, _and_ I wasn't even competing with the people in question at the time. They were entered in obedience and I was entered in Rally and they still took the time out of their day to be jerks about it). I have heard from other people that IPO culture can be _extremely_ hostile.

This means that some percentage of people who want to train that way will get discouraged and burned out and will leave those sports. Competition is already hard enough on its own without feeling like you're isolated and unwelcome in your sport. And some other percentage will switch methods to get more support.

Second, consider the experience and quality of instruction. In some sports and some regions, it may be extremely difficult to find teachers who use your preferred methods. The teachers you _can_ find may not be very good. My club's OTCH instructor left last year, and our obedience program had to scramble for a while to fill the gaps, because there wasn't anyone else at that skill level who could cover her classes. And, again, this is in a pretty friendly region as far as force-free training goes. In other regions, the force-free people may be learning from an instructor who has 3 years of competition experience, while the school down the street has an instructor with 30 years of success using prong collars.

Third, consider the experience of the competitor. A lot of the people I train with are young (under 30) and relatively new to dog sports. A couple of them are crossover trainers who are trying to break old habits and learn totally new, unfamiliar ways of doing things. Of _course_ we tend not to do as well as people who have been doing the same things the same way for 20 or 40 years. We're novices, we suck.

Fourth, consider the canine half of the equation. In large part because we're new to this, many of the people in my cohort are competing with dogs that they didn't get specifically as sport prospects, but who were originally intended just to be companions. I've talked about it a few times in other contexts before, but probably two-thirds of my sport friends are competing with shelter and rescue dogs who have a whole pile of problems. We love 'em, but we've got a bunch of scruffy misfits going up against Tanbark and High Times dogs. So yeah, we get crushed a lot for that reason too.

It's not an equal playing field in those sports. And because of that, a certain number of people who really want to win will gravitate toward the proven methods, because they _are_ the proven methods, which further skews the percentages so that there are more dabblers and dilettantes on the other side of the equation. They look worse not because the methods themselves are inherently flawed, but because of all the stuff I talked about above, and then _also_ because they're dabblers and dilettantes.

So basically it does not surprise me in the slightest when people tell me that "hey I saw a purely positive team in the ring last week and LOL THEY SUCKED" because yep that is not an uncommon story at all. But I don't find it particularly discouraging, either, because I'm pretty sure I can guess why that happened and those reasons don't discourage me.


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## Baillif

I dont have issue with great +r trainers in most dog sports out there. If you dont want to press your dog and can get great results without it great more power to you. It becomes an issue in ring sport because the dogs that are willing to push through the pressure and acessories and obsticles placed in their way in those sports really really want to bite decoys. No cookie or praise or toy is going to get "some" them to peel off. People say oh what about inactivity like making a tug go dead? On some maybe but in the heat of battle probably not reliable. We hang the suit up on a hook on the wall the ringsport dogs if allowed out without us saying otherwise go straight for it latch on and hang there thrashing it. Zebu loves frisbee and his tug but loves biting decoys more and asking him to out for a toy is like asking a kid with a sweet tooth to exchange his ice cream for brussel sprouts.


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## carmspack

Back to the OPs question though which is I believe , can she train her dog which leaves her looking like "
My girl used to bruise me up pretty heavily- My arms used to look Like I used heroin or was a domestic abuse victim. I'm so glad she has gotten better. And I never had to smack her, use a prong, or alpha roll her. Just some rules and some singing and a brother and she has become much more gentle. Thank you to everyone who responded. I'm sure I will post about her progress and about her new little brother! "

Question right back at you. Does Schraderhaus know about this ? Have you asked them how to resolve the problem.

Quote 
We use " oops" as a no reward marker. I do grab her collar and use a firm no when she mouths, and sometimes if she is super amped, I sing to her to calm her down and then she rolls over on her side and relaxes. Sometimes physically hauling her into a time out room gets her too excited. 
______________

this "__saying no, then giving her timeouts in the yard, because she will let go with sparkling eyes when I say outside, then stand pouting at the door when I then refuse to come out and play ball because she mouthed"

the dog though is being rewarded by being let outside . 
You would think the mouthing would increase in frequency, like teaching a dog to pull a cord with bell to signal needing to go out. Mouth , out . Pressure off . __

I may be totally wrong but I don't believe the dog would make this cause and effect connection "then stand pouting at the door when I then refuse to come out and play ball because she mouthed. Works like a charm" . She may recognize that you aren't coming out and register disappointment but the connection to the cause doesn't register . 

"Right...for example, we noticed that Skadi mouths more when she is overstimulated, which tends to happen more on busy streets, so we figure she isn't ready for busy streets yet. 

Agree "Your dog probably used you as a chew toy because of stress... and there's less stress in the new place, so less need to chew. What happens if you take her back into a high stress area? Not high danger, just high stress. The outside of a dog park. The city square, etc. I am just not convinced right now that she knows not to bite... and that just seems like an accident waiting to happen."

why all these reminders -- because I just do not see how this easily stressed dog can participate in schutzhund without discharging more frustration mouthing on the OP AND for the OP not to expect conflict and pressure and corrections , from the handler , from the decoy.

"Well, we have officially found a place and a trainer for schutzhund for Skadi and Grim through this thread. So glad I found this site
.

what is this song that you refer to 

this mouthing needs to be fixed , first before entertaining a sport which has stress and biting.


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## Merciel

Baillif said:


> It becomes an issue in ring sport because the dogs that are willing to push through the pressure and acessories and obsticles placed in their way in those sports really really want to bite decoys. No cookie or praise or toy is going to get "some" them to peel off. People say oh what about inactivity like making a tug go dead? On some maybe but in the heat of battle probably not reliable. We hang the suit up on a hook on the wall the ringsport dogs if allowed out without us saying otherwise go straight for it latch on and hang there thrashing it. Zebu loves frisbee and his tug but loves biting decoys more and asking him to out for a toy is like asking a kid with a sweet tooth to exchange his ice cream for brussel sprouts.


Oh, I totally believe you. I think there are a number of things that make it especially difficult to do this, and do it well, in bitesports. The dogs are tough, the sports are tough, and there are very few people to learn from in the U.S., even before you start narrowing down the list to the teachers who are willing to humor the crazy person.

But pretty much all I know on that subject is that I _don't_ know nearly enough to start shooting my mouth off about it.


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## glowingtoadfly

I found someone through this thread who has known my dog since before we brought her home. His response was that she needs a job, and has always needed one since a puppy. My husband and I have decided that schutzhund will be that job, and have found a local place near enough to take her. My husband is more into leerburg methods than I am and he is going to take on her training in schutzhund while I work with her positively at home. The song that calms her down is " you are my sunshine" lol.


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## glowingtoadfly

... And no need to worry the breeders. They are busy enough with real problems.


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## glowingtoadfly

I haven't had a mark to speak of in a month, through how we have managed it, so I think she is ready to use the drive that is oozing our of her radar ears.


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## crackem

Explain these " leerburg methods" to me


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## carmspack

super confusing for the dog to work under two very different training modes


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## glowingtoadfly

We just had a talk with a trainer at our local German shepherd club who has known her since she was eight months old. Longer than we have. He says everyone who knew her and trained with her thought obedience or agility would not be enough for her, that she needed a real job. My husband has always thought that we should use positive punishment in the form of leash corrections with a prong collar when she ignores commands that she already knows. But out of respect for me, he has gone along with my training methods. Under the guidance of this trainer who has known my dog longer than I have, I am willing to let my husband try training her the way he has always wanted to. She is begging for a job and for consistency. Doesn't mean I can't use clicker training too.


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## glowingtoadfly

That is exactly what the behaviorist said to my husband when he questioned her methods, Carmen.


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## glowingtoadfly

... And I am really struggling with this decision but I am willing to be consistent for her sake. Most trainers try different things out and she is turning 2. It's time for her to stop this behavior and if this is what it takes...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This is a long thread, I have one to edit so can't be a part of the commenting community with the time I have today, and I am just wondering what the behavior is that needs to be changed?

Why Does my Dog Ignore my Commands?

I don't typically use leash corrections with my dogs or fosters for things (non-typical is if I need to use the leash for dangerous situations). But my communication can still be very clear with the dog. 

And don't tell MaggieRoseLee agility isn't a job.  You might want to try it. I have taken a very high drive little pocket rocket of a foster through a couple of classes years ago and it really engaged her.


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## glowingtoadfly

She's a snappy mouthy girl. Oh boy. Sorry. I keep putting my foot in my mouth. Just a bit exhausted/ busy


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I use replacement behaviors for mouthing - give her something else to do that works for both of you - and I can't go back through to see what has been suggested - guessing tiring her out more, not getting her over tired at the same time, logging when she does it, what's going on around when it happens, root cause kind of idea, and then Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - FAQ for fun 
Across a Threshold - Whole Dog Journal Article
http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf

Are just things to look at like the other link posted above. To me, it's more fun to use my brain to out-think a dog than to just tell them no in the case of non-dangerous, immediate behaviors. Plus having worked with changing behaviors of humans for so long, where pulling them by their neck is just not allowed  it's a habit.

Also just quickly scanned - not sure you ARE using positive methods anyway to communicate with your dog - I think that is where I would focus - how I am communicating with the dog (grab collar, dog falls to the floor - my communication is not working with my dog). You can use a clicker and still not have that connection. Check out all of www.suzanneclothier.com and her articles (note that the prong one is one she has just left there with a current disclaimer).


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you. I'm still not entirely sold on the whole leash corrections idea, just really want what's best for her. She starts her positive humane society manners class in a few weeks, so I am sure that will give her a job . I'm a dog walker at the humane society as well and they only train positively there. The only marks she has left on me have been twice, she had a rough day a few days ago when she was under exercised and had had her long crate day. She didn't like me grabbing her collar and bringing her inside, and was amped from playing with her brother. I should have gotten a leash or enticed her with her ball. Tiny little scratch and tiny bruise on my wrist. Then, she loves to be destructive and was ripping up pieces of the floor and I tried to pull her away by her collar and she nipped my finger a tiny bit. Nothing serious like the bruises she used to leave. Just tiny marks. Thank you for the resources.


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## glowingtoadfly

And no, no one suggested any of that . I used to keep a behavior log when she was having a harder time.


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## glowingtoadfly

& she is also a little hand shy. So grabbing the collar may be the wrong decision. This morning, she took my hand in her mouth looking upset because I was reaching for her to pull her away from chewing on the mattress. I said " let's get your ball, and she let go. We played ball and did some training and she settled down. Redirection often works well.


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## Deno

Training the average German Shepherd is not rocket science, the methods used depend on the dog. Yin & Yang are not necessarily opposing forces, with dog training they are complementary to a point.

I have always trained from both ends, positive rewards for what I want, with corrections for what I don't want. Positive rewards in the form of treats in the early stages is a must and it's just common sense. 

I am no expert by any means, but IMHO there is no way you could have command of a real
world working dog with just positive reinforcement. As far as exercise goes, they need a lot to stay out of trouble.


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## carmspack

It sounds like the dog situation is totally out of control . The dog mauls you as a chew toy , makes you look like an abuse victim, chews up the floor boards , chews the mattress , drops her weight in protest making her unmovable.
The dog needs firm decisive leadership . Spinning and hand licking on cue are cute but you still have some major problems . How long can you live with a dog who is probably going to take more advantage.

The dog needs fair and firm , quickly met out corrections .

, and is "& she is also a little hand shy." and the environmental issues that she has . and you want to put her into schutzhund?

the dog probably isn't that bad -- I think it is more your wanting to so much be your dogs friend that is at issue .

don't be under the idea that I am on top of my dogs all the time, quite the reverse . They have all the freedom but there are things which are just not going to happen . The word NO is rarely used or needed . When I do use NO , the message is definitely clear, no ambiguity or begging -- a volley . Dog moves from "bad action" and immediately is praised for a right decision. Good stuff .
Tell the dog what you DO want it to do , not hemming it in with constant managing what you don't want it to do.


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> It sounds like the dog situation is totally out of control . The dog mauls you as a chew toy , makes you look like an abuse victim, chews up the floor boards , chews the mattress , drops her weight in protest making her unmovable.
> The dog needs firm decisive leadership . Spinning and hand licking on cue are cute but you still have some major problems . How long can you live with a dog who is probably going to take more advantage.
> 
> The dog needs fair and firm , quickly met out corrections .
> 
> , and is "& she is also a little hand shy." and the environmental issues that she has . and you want to put her into schutzhund?
> 
> the dog probably isn't that bad -- I think it is more your wanting to so much be your dogs friend that is at issue .
> 
> don't be under the idea that I am on top of my dogs all the time, quite the reverse . They have all the freedom but there are things which are just not going to happen . The word NO is rarely used or needed . When I do use NO , the message is definitely clear, no ambiguity or begging -- a volley . Dog moves from "bad action" and immediately is praised for a right decision. Good stuff .
> Tell the dog what you DO want it to do , not hemming it in with constant managing what you don't want it to do.


+1 hopefully the ipo trainers can teach the husband some basic handling skills.


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## glowingtoadfly

She really is a great dog. She has been a bit more testy lately since we added a puppy to the mix. I don't want to be her friend. I want to make her a good companion. I just started handling her collar while feeding her treats today, to help desensitize her. I will also start gently handling her collar before throwing her ball again.. Something I used to do. My husband is now attending a training class where they use corrections. He says it's perfect for her but I'm not sure. I think I need to think about this deeply and attend some trainings.


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## glowingtoadfly

And by trainings I mean both sides of the spectrum, to educate myself better. In the end this is about what a really good dog with a lot of potential needs and how to fulfill those needs so she doesn't feel the need to act out.


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## carmspack

how's it going with the younger dog?


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## glowingtoadfly

He is doing very well. One great thing about having two is that they play, play, play until she is tired and ready to focus on a walk, and his presence has helped her to be more ready to walk well on a leash. He is easygoing, very gentle and sweet and they get along. He has helped her become more accepting of handling because she sees him getting affection and wants it too. One of their favorite things to do together is play tug. We keep the toys put away when they are both out because balls are very high value to her and he is a known toy snatcher. Ball had been in her mouth 24/7 before so she may be chewing more because of that.


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## carmspack

that describes the dog to dog interaction . 

how are you going to train him?

I think he is going to be more difficult because it seems like all his rewarding interaction and relationship has been with the other dog .

I don't mean coming over for pats -- I mean training which allows you to direct and control the dog.


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## glowingtoadfly

We use crates and gates to separate them for training one on one time, or I will walk him alone while my husband plays ball with her and trains her and vice versa. Each night and morning I handle him while feeding him and he works for his supper and breakfast by heeling, doing downs, sits, and hand targeting. He is a very food motivated boy, loves tug and I am teaching him to fetch the ball. He has a bit of stranger danger right now so I signed him up for a shy dog class at the humane society.


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## carmspack

do have a conversation with Schraderhaus .


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## glowingtoadfly

And Blitzkrieg, she has not mouthed my husband in months, and hasn't left a mark on him in at least four months. He has a more intimidating way about him than I do. He also has more GSD experience, though with his parents farm lines.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> And Blitzkrieg, she has not mouthed my husband in months, and hasn't left a mark on him in at least four months. He has a more intimidating way about him than I do. He also has more GSD experience, though with his parents farm lines.


Its not intimidation its likely assertive demeanor which creates respect. The way you handle both dogs sounds exhausting to both you and the dogs. Being assertive and introducing corrections for unwanted behavior will make life a lot easier for you and the dogs. 
You will notice them begin to relax more, be less hyperactive, its easier when there is consistent structure and leadership present. 
I'd fire the "behaviorist" and stick with the IPO folks.


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## glowingtoadfly

Assertive is a better word for what I meant.


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## carmspack

agree with Blitzkrieg -- it can't be easy for the dogs ---


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## glowingtoadfly

We're going to bring them both to IPO next week so I can observe what it's like and they can check it out, and keep the clicker training classes at the humane society for extra stimulation. They aren't hyperactive most of the time. Both settle in nicely. Grim is sleeping by my feet out of his crate right now, Skadi is napping upstairs by my husband. I'm curious to see how it goes, willing to give it a try, still questioning the methods. Wonder why I should contact the breeder? I'm in pretty regular contact with our breeder right here. My husband is very excited to try this out. How many threads about mouthing and biting have I seen already? At least 10 and it's only my first two weeks here! I feel right at home.


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## carmspack

"How many threads about mouthing and biting have I seen already?"

too many !

even though landsharking may be a common experience doesn't mean it should be indulged or prolonged .

set the boundaries decisively on how you want to be treated , what is and what is not appropriate behaviour.


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## glowingtoadfly

I feel that, in theory, boundaries can be set without corrections. Did I want it to go on this long? Of course not! Many posters on this thread had advice for positive ways to manage the behavior.


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## Serbrider

I'm just curious, how do you set boundaries with no corrections, whether physical or verbal to reinforce that you should never cross them, not just want the good (because what if the good gets boring?)? The point of setting boundaries is to correct crossing over them. Some people do so with hits and jerks on the leash (not me), some use verbal corrections of "ch" or "no" or something...

Diversion is great, and DEFINITELY should be included after correction... But I just don't understand why a dog or human would understand boundaries fully, especially if you are not there, if there are absolutely no negative consequences at all.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## glowingtoadfly

Would any of the more experienced positive trainers care to comment? I've only been at this 9 months and have made mistakes, although everyone does, even Carmen ( just kidding, have been very interested in your feedback)


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## carmspack

to this " have made mistakes, although everyone does, even Carmen ( just kidding, have been very interested in your feedback"

my reply would be light hearted , but serious, 

no, no , I don't make mistakes ! my dogs do. 

That is why I am the leader, the decider . 

I make it very clear that I am not a chew toy. Quick pinch on soft nose rubber , and that's it . Over and done. Lightning fast and immediately move on to something pleasant.

I don't trade off with another thing to chew -- don't chew end of story.

You have to be real careful on the timing of the trade off , just like you have to be real careful with timing in helping along a shy dog with food rewards. An error could have you result in a dog that happily annoys you with "landsharking" because you have rewarded it with a poorly timed treat. Bite = treat . 
Does it have an impact on future bite work and confronting a threat - NO .
Bear in mind that these are pups that I have raised since birth . 
I want them to be resilient.

I also know how swift a response they would get from the mum dog if they went out of line. 

Not in anger . Not in frustration . - phrase I would put on a tee-shirt 

not apologetic ---- not conciliatory -- just matter of fact


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes! Timing is everything! When the behaviorist told us to click and treat her for releasing my arm, my husband used to call it the treat- o- pus ( like octopus) effect. Bite, treats fall out. She followed me everywhere mouthing me. She's not a dumb dog. I probably have poor timing.


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## carmspack

nah , why wait so long -

dogs are not fragile hot house plants 

do I have fun with my dogs -- absolutely--- a barrel of fun . Young pups are played with , indulged , in creative , spontaneous ways.

Bites though , as accident in rough and tumble fooling around , okay , but to be a target , chew toy - absolutely not . Nope. Let's establish the what is allowed right from the start . 

I did quite a few dogs for a major US importer -- not training - fixing through , socializing correctly, setting parameters, taking the time and being consistent . Essentially decent dogs gone out of control through lack of good management . 
Fear never used. 
Dog always allowed dignity . Best way to bring them on board.

the dogs with environmental , and fear issues took longer , and patience , great observation to work them just under the threshold , which was a shifting edge. Never work over the threshold or reward over the threshold . Wrong place , wrong result .


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## carmspack

why wait till the dog is on your arm? You know it is coming . Proactive sharp NO , oh no you don't not on me ! NO.
surprise the dog out of her boots, she'll stand there blinking , where did that come from ? 
Then when you have STOPPED , prevented the action you reward.

I can't see a grown dog holding on to your arm making a decision on when and how to let go , while you wait to click and reward .

That heavy grippy weight dropping dog could be pulling back , shaking , gripping harder , for a prolonged time . You are damaging your arm . Nice way to get an infection . Hope you give a good cleaning of your arm .


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## glowingtoadfly

The treat o pus effect was months ago.. We stopped doing click for release. Pretty quick!


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## NancyJ

As I continue to learn more about training, I strive to learn more about positive methods of training dogs new information but feel at times, they need a correction. I am learning more about timing and consistency and have found the level of correction, given properly, may not necessarily be as harsh as what I would have given during the yank and crank days but is sometimes needed to refocus the dog.

The positive only trainers I have met......well I have seen folks leave with their problems because they could not fix them and seem some things that took months of tweedling with different methods when one firm correction got the point across. Conversely, I left someone's class who gave unfair and harsh corrections, particularly for some fear aggressive dogs. She corrected Beau harshly for non compliance with releasing a toy and he went up the lead at her (he never did this to me). I will say I did not put up with being a pincushion though and we sorted that out the first few weeks. Mainly redirection.

I don't know. I never hit my kids but when my youngest was nursing she became quite the little demon at biting me with those new teeth. I flicked her on the nose with my finger when "ow" and "stop it" and "no" just egged her on. Surprised her. Did not hurt her. Stopped the behavior pretty quickly. There call DSS but it was 28 years ago. She grew up ok.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I feel that, in theory, boundaries can be set without corrections. Did I want it to go on this long? Of course not! Many posters on this thread had advice for positive ways to manage the behavior.


Yes lets hear more from the positive trainers..and all their achievements too...and how long it all took... 
Im curious why you would get working line GSDs it doesnt seem like a good fit with your training ethos.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi is the kind of dog who might need it. It's going to take me awhile to consider it. Like I said, I'm going to the IPO class and we'll see how she does. I may even enjoy it. Heck, Grim may love it. No reason not to let them try. I think if it's possible to train a wolfdog or a killer whale positively that it can be done with a working line gsd. I'm not going to say that it's impossible. Far back in the thread a woman was talking about how she trained working lines with most things in life are free, force free training.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> Skadi is the kind of dog who might need it. It's going to take me awhile to consider it. Like I said, I'm going to the IPO class and we'll see how she does. I may even enjoy it. Heck, Grim may love it. No reason not to let them try. I think if it's possible to train a wolfdog or a killer whale positively that it can be done with a working line gsd. I'm not going to say that it's impossible. Far back in the thread a woman was talking about how she trained working lines with most things in life are free, force free training.


Training a whale in a tank to do tricks has no similarities to training a dog that you live with and take places. Trick training and obedience / manners are not the same things.
The whale is stuck in the tank and has no stimulation other then the trainer, in addition they are often starved to increase their pliability...very force free..lol.

As for wolfdogs what was the level of training? Was the dog heeling through crowds? Recalling under distraction? 

Remember the dog world is full of trainers and owners with stories about how well trained their dog is. The proof is often pretty thin to non existent.

Your dog sitting in training class or shaking a paw for a cookie is not training its tricks that the dog is doing for food with little real world utility.


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## Zlata

I think that you should go into the training with an open-mind. At the end of the day, you have to do what's best for you and your dog. You also have to be confident in the techniques that you are using. If you are unsure or timid about issuing (I am assuming in this case physical) corrections, it honestly might not be a great idea. I feel that dogs, especially GSDs, are so apt at picking up on our discomfort and uneasiness. If you are a better leader using other techniques because you are consistent and confident with them, so be it. Don't let anyone bully you into adapting other techniques just because 'everyone else does it this way.' That, to me, is silly. 

Go into it with an open mind. See how your dog responds. Go from there.


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## glowingtoadfly

.. As for why working lines, the strength, the intelligence, the speed, the drive, the agility... I like working with dogs who are smart enough to have recall on trails off leash up north because I love to hike. Her ball drive makes her easy to train ( for some things lol). Her intelligence and intensity. Grim is not so intense except maybe at tug. But he is just as smart. As for wolfdogs, training for them is dependent on content. A low content wolfdog can live in a house, be your companion, can be destructive, but is not as intense as a mid content that would need more outdoor containment, higher prey drive, less likely to live in the house with you. Then there are high contents who you are lucky to be able to handle. If I were to consider my dogs differences in intensity, Skadi is an upper mid, Grim is a low. I know, I know. Don't compare dogs to wolves. Can you tell I have a bit of a wolfdog obsession?


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## glowingtoadfly

Thanks Zlata, that's what I plan to do. My husband says he can be the one to handle her so I can observe. Grim is a puddincake who might shut down with corrections so he can just play with the flirt pole.


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## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> Skadi is the kind of dog who might need it. It's going to take me awhile to consider it. Like I said, I'm going to the IPO class and we'll see how she does. I may even enjoy it. Heck, Grim may love it. No reason not to let them try. *I think if it's possible to train a wolfdog or a killer whale positively that it can be done with a working line gsd*. I'm not going to say that it's impossible. Far back in the thread a woman was talking about how she trained working lines with most things in life are free, force free training.


Didn't you hear? It's not possible...trainers are regularly attacked, and several (one quite recently) was literally eaten by the orca (was in the tank for hours while the whale took bites out of her and guarded her body from people coming in trying to retrieve the body)....regardless, a domestic dog isn't a killer whale, that correlation doesn't work at all. Positive training or not.


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## Blitzkrieg1

DaniFani said:


> Didn't you hear? It's not possible...trainers are regularly attacked, and several (one quite recently) was literally eaten by the orca (was in the tank for hours while the whale took bites out of her and guarded her body from people coming in trying to retrieve the body)....regardless, a domestic dog isn't a killer whale, that correlation doesn't work at all. Positive training or not.


Just watched Blackfish, despite the obvious AR slant it was very clear how much torture the whales go through. So intelligent perhaps second only to humans, yet kept in a cell and forced to perform for their meals. Is anyone surprised that they do tricks for a whistle and some treats its all they have to stimulate them.. Ofcourse until they decide to attack the trainer for a little extra fun.
Never understood the wolfdog thing, they are practically useless and require 5 times the work. Just get a sable!


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## glowingtoadfly

Just watched blackfish too. Don't consider that positive training.


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## glowingtoadfly

Maybe killer whales were not the best example. Dogs are animals too, despite being domesticated.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think some of the things that help to minimize the use of corrections, while still creating a dog that behaves well, responds quickly are...

Exercise to the needs of the dog - not too much as they get crochety if over tired, but an amount that tires them. Some dogs who have issues have a hard time getting to that point and then you look at - is this actually mental unrest - anxiety and some OCD and not physical exertion needs...

Mental stimulation - same as above with the mental state, but tracking, agility, things where the dog has to think and puzzle things out really make for some nice behavior. This can also include outings to new places and seeing new things - walks in the woods on lead (I am not an off leash kind of person), walking across logs, using the outdoors as an agility ring, going to stores, busy places - letting them use their minds

A good foundation - check Dr. Yin's website for perfect puppy stuff - you do that and you almost never even need to worry about corrections because the dog gets you and your expectations because you've set such a deep and clear foundation with them

The relationship stuff from Suzanne Clothier

Telling a dog what you do want and not correcting for what you don't want - teaching

Replacement behaviors 

Things are my idea - did the dog sit? I say good sit. Do they want to get on the couch and have earned that - they need to ask still. 

Making yourself fun and interesting

Being firm - but not harsh - unacceptable is unacceptable 100% of the time

That means you have to be clear - you have to know what you want and what you don't want 100% of the time

Use your body - think of your teachers when someone is talking - how they move in toward that person, give them a look, and then back away as they stop talking

Setting the environment up so the dog doesn't fail - what do they get in trouble for, can we remove or change those things if they are things that are our fault

I am sure there are more, but this off the top of my head thinking of all my dogs and how I adjust for each. 

These things don't take a lot of time (I mean - what we need to be willing to give to a dog in general) - just a willingness to commit to it and understand that when we slack in our structure, in our attitude (positive, interesting, upbeat and firm), and our expectations, our dogs will slack in their behavior. It's kind of like in driving - the car goes where we are looking.


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## Blanketback

Humans are animals, too. 

I think you're overanalyzing things and making it far more complicated than it really is. I understand that you don't want to physically abuse your pup, but nobody wants that anyways, even if they're using compulsion they still care about their dogs. I'm guessing that there are people who'll go overboard to win certain titles, but that's far removed from most. You've even said you grab the collar, so you must know that some of the 'force-free' ideals aren't your training style either.


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## glowingtoadfly

I've stopped doing the collar grab


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you Jean! That was very helpful!


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## glowingtoadfly

My breeder just told me she clicker trained a dog to do schutzhund. Got her BH and her SCH 1 in eight months . She does not recommend it for Skadi though, or compulsion training. I'm taking it all into consideration. Maybe some nose work instead. And yes, I'm an over analyzer.


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## Blanketback

I personally think that starving an animal to get it to comply is the cruelest thing you can possibly do.


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## carmspack

totally ! especially with young pups -- 
"Exercise to the needs of the dog - not too much as they get crochety if over tired, but an amount that tires them. Some dogs who have issues have a hard time getting to that point and then you look at - is this actually mental unrest - anxiety and some OCD and not physical exertion needs..."

stop right there lol --- I would be agreeing the entire post that Jean provided . 

this is what is in the early socialization thread - " you do that and you almost never even need to worry about corrections because the dog gets you and your expectations because you've set such a deep and clear foundation with them

The relationship stuff from Suzanne Clothier

Telling a dog what you do want and not correcting for what you don't want - teaching"

those are the clearest lines of communicating anything in training . 


this too - "Being firm - but not harsh - unacceptable is unacceptable 100% of the time

That means you have to be clear - you have to know what you want and what you don't want 100% of the time" 

dogs are poor in the grey , conditional zone . They can't beg at the kitchen table when it is family only , and then not do it at your festive get together -- can't be on the couch when dry and sweet , and be chased off after that springtime jog when they are wet and gritty on the underside.
Consistency goes to trust .


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes definitely, Blanketback! The woman who wrote plenty in life is free did NOT starve the walruses to make them comply. Blackfish made me cry, I'll admit it!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Watched Blackfish too. It was disturbing on a lot of levels. From the training methods to how trainers are selected to the corporate greed driving it all.

There is now talk of banning killer whale shows at SeaWorld San Diego. 


On topic: I've read all of the posts, especially Carmen's. While I'd been learning the things over time in bits and pieces, what Carmen mentions are literally giving you the keys to success with some clear truisms. IMO.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes, Carmen, thank you so much for bearing with me. You have been extremely helpful and it's great to hear from someone so experienced.


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## Blanketback

I took a puppy manners class, and I was advised not to feed my puppy that day, to motivate him. I disagreed with this, and I didn't follow those instructions. I also disagreed to use a head harness on my lunging puppy.
This was a "positive only" class. I question what's "positive" about denying food, or getting a neck injury, lol. Not that I wanted to be in a class where it's all 'correction, correction, correction' but my relationship with my puppy includes meeting his needs for feeding him, and looking out for his best interests by keeping him safe from injury.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Couple things Carmen mentioned, " get over with and quickly move to something pleasant". This was very key for me to learn when struggling with my Smitty dog. I was way too slow and did not switch to something of high value to him nearly fast enough.

"Consistency equals trust". Never thought of it that way, I understood how important consistency is but putting it that way emphasizes WHY it is so important.


Those two things stand out to me because they really frame two very important concepts in establishing a working relationship with your dog. 

This has been a very interesting thread.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Blanketback said:


> I took a puppy manners class, and I was advised not to feed my puppy that day, to motivate him. I disagreed with this, and I didn't follow those instructions. I also disagreed to use a head harness on my lunging puppy.
> This was a "positive only" class. I question what's "positive" about denying food, or getting a neck injury, lol. Not that I wanted to be in a class where it's all 'correction, correction, correction' but my relationship with my puppy includes meeting his needs for feeding him, and looking out for his best interests by keeping him safe from injury.


I never, ever, ever withhold food for a dog. I come from a line of cranky people if not fed, am myself food aggressive , and if you ever want to shut me down fast, that will do it. I don't always compare myself to my dogs, but this is one area where do unto others falls clearly for me. Especially because my dogs are all rescues, most who have had food limited in their previous environments. Uck. 

I have seen this suggested by trainers of all kinds - positive, "balanced" and otherwise.

And thanks, Carmen!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Regarding the withholding of food. I think it's a matter of degrees. 

If I didn't withhold food for tracking training Ilda would quickly become overweight especially at the beginning when footstep tracking you bait each step. So on mornings we are practicing tracking I do withhold her breakfast. 

Depending on what method you use a lot of food is given to establish OB too**. So for me withholding food just one meal for instance, because A. It will increase food drive and B prevents your dog from getting too many calories when training.

After you have established the behaviors you want then the treats are weaned out of the picture.

**The trainers I work with primarily follow the M. Ellis method of training with food.


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## Blanketback

If it was tracking, then I'd think nothing of it. The dog is sourcing out food, so it's not the same to me at all.


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## glowingtoadfly

The humane society just tells you to bring dinner and high value treats to class


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes but from the dogs POV it's the same thing whether for tracking or OB training? 

I don't think that withholding one meal before a big day of training is cruel or inhumane.





Blanketback said:


> If it was tracking, then I'd think nothing of it. The dog is sourcing out food, so it's not the same to me at all.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Oh iv with held food or reduced intake to bring up food drive so I could teach some behaviors which worked great. But Iv never pretended to be positive only...


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## DaniFani

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Just watched Blackfish, despite the obvious AR slant it was very clear how much torture the whales go through. So intelligent perhaps second only to humans, yet kept in a cell and forced to perform for their meals. Is anyone surprised that they do tricks for a whistle and some treats its all they have to stimulate them.. Ofcourse until they decide to attack the trainer for a little extra fun.
> Never understood the wolfdog thing, they are practically useless and require 5 times the work. Just get a sable!


A good portion of my undergrad in Zoology/Organismal Biology was studying marine mammals (lots of necropsies, spending days at the docks watching/observing California Sea Lions, whale watching, and of course labs...plus I got part time work as a lab assistant to the head of marine mammal studies in the NW). I know a lot about those animals, I liked Blackfish a lot, mostly because it showed how we just cannot re-create the way these animals live in nature, in captivity. They are too large. Their pods and social structure is so complex and important to their lives. It's my theory that it's more the frustration they suffer at the hands of an inability to live "naturally" in a captive environment, that leads to the attacks. Males forced to be in close proximity to females (NOT like this in the wild), unable to dive to the great depths they would in the ocean, etc. The man-made-order of their "captive families" is the kicker for me....they are bonded on an unbelievable, life-long, relationship with their pods in real life. In captivity it's based on money, park requirements, and breeding (all money really).

I could go on about marine mammals for days. They fascinate me. I didn't care for that other documentary about the dolphins (can't remember the name, but it was incredibly high up on the AR crazy scale). While I think the killing should be regulated, with rules, sex/age minimums, humane methods of killing etc...I don't think it's wrong to hunt and eat them. I felt that "documentary" touched much more on an emotional/feelings level....while blackfish (for the most part) stuck to scientific facts about those animals, their social structure in the wild, and how lacking all of it is in captivity. Not just the food "fasting"...but the frustration that builds up from a total lack of anything "natural." 

I do believe "nature" can be recreated for the most part, in most AZA affiliated zoos. I do believe enrichment, education, and quality is mostly achieved for *most captive wild animals. The shear size of the orca's and the way they live in nature, I think, completely prevents this recreation in captivity (the same goes for most marine mammals....we just cannot re-create the ocean!). Although, most marine mammals, dolphins, seals, orcas, porpoises, etc...have complex social structures, and THAT is captivity's biggest downfall, imho.


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## glowingtoadfly

I know blitzkrieg is going to laugh at this one. My husband fell in love with the obedience portion of schutzhund and is currently looking up clicker training for IPO online for the dogs. He doesn't care if the correction trainers think he's funny. I love him so much!


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## Merciel

re: clicker training for IPO online -- this link was posted earlier in the thread (I think by Jean?) but I'll repost it again because I love FDSA: Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Home

Next session's sign-up starts on March 21, so you have time to go over the scheduled courses and see which ones work for you. The next session on IPO Fundamentals for obedience and protection isn't until June, though.

Depending on where you are in your training overall, I'd actually recommend starting with a foundational class before then. "Get Focused!" might be a good place to begin, although I haven't taken that one myself so I'm just basing this suggestion on the syllabus.


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## glowingtoadfly

We aren't doing bite work, just the obedience part. Thank you Merciel, I'll check that out.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I know blitzkrieg is going to laugh at this one. My husband fell in love with the obedience portion of schutzhund and is currently looking up clicker training for IPO online for the dogs. He doesn't care if the correction trainers think he's funny. I love him so much!


Nothing wrong with using a clicker, its not one or the other. Plenty of people use a clicker to teach then use corrections in the proofing process.
Im sure that after watching other members work their dogs and seeing the success they have with a more complete approach your husband will realize that while a clicker is a great tool, it is only part of the process.


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## glowingtoadfly

Nothing wrong with some good spirited debate on training methods.


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## glowingtoadfly

& our behaviorist was very helpful. I would recommend her to anyone. Wild Canine was great. Wish we could afford to see them again


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## Bobby25104

I have the same issue with my 10 month old. I have just been reinforcing the " no bite " and he then turns to licking. I have also found lots and lots of play exercise helps to reduce the biting.


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi is almost 2... It has definitely improved as she has gotten older. I think by the time she's three she will be fully mature? I know working lines can take longer.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I like to judge professionals by their results. If I was her I would have an issue taking your money if the dog was still behaving the way you were describing this is something that should have been easily been fixed in a week or two.


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## glowingtoadfly

There were other things she was invaluable for. She taught us how to do matwork to get her to settle in the house, how to hand target, how to step on the leash on walks when she started mouthing, etc. she also told us about raw bones, about thresholds, how to keep her under threshold, we were going to start tracking..


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## carmspack

is this the place? Wild Canine - Training the Canine Brain Web site really vague .


I'm sorry I'm on side with Blitzkrieg . I would want my money back.
I look for results .

You got this, or can get this, and more from the forum --

"She taught us how to do matwork to get her to settle in the house, how to hand target, how to step on the leash on walks when she started mouthing, etc. she also told us about raw bones, about thresholds, how to keep her under threshold, we were going to start tracking.. "

you haven't solved problems. You seem to have this idea that the dog is a fragile , precious little snowflake , which is not fair to the dog. The dog continues to live in a confused state , part of which is expressed by anxious biting . WHY is she biting? 

Your husband volunteers to take her to schutzhund for the obedience portion AND use a clicker out of consideration to you , yet you are fearful that something will be too hard for the dog to bear .


Forget about the fantasy wolf dog . This is a dog . You don't have to make things so complicated . You can get so much more from this dog than you could get from a wolf-dog , and with a fraction of the effort.

I keep asking if you have contacted Schrader -- never mind , they seem to be in some partnership. At least contact Melinda Clark of Gildaf Home since the dogs came from her. She seems to have some skills with dogs and I am sure she be interested making sure the two dogs you have from her turn out well . 
Let her make some suggestions.

recommended books The Thinking Dog [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/The-Thinking-Dog-Crossover-Training/dp/192924262X[/ame]


https://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB1224


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## boomer11

If you weren't so closed minded the advice on this forum could fix mouthing. Yet you waste a bunch of money and your dog still mouths? Working lines slow to mature? Lol excuses. No dog should mouth past 8 months at the most. 

The dog is constantly confused. It constantly senses you are frustrated at him. How is that a happy dog?


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## glowingtoadfly

Like I said, it keeps getting better. We have been having lovely walks all week. Beth said it can take awhile to resolve issues. I was not making excuses for her behavior. Lol remember please that I just joined the forum. And that she is my first dog.


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## glowingtoadfly

Also, something Beth was invaluable for was the handling issues. Through using her technique the vet noticed a difference in her demeanor around being touched. That, from what I hear, is not a correction issue. Also, Melinda is in contact with me a lot. We are Facebook friends. She supports the positive approach. Please remember that this is a forum, you only have the exhausted typing of a new dog owner to go on and you haven't seen the behavior and how much she has slowly improved. Yes it has been slow. But that's ok to me.


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## glowingtoadfly

& this forum is part of my wolf dog Facebook group recovery plan, lol. Just because I'm a little obsessed doesn't mean I dont know I have dogs.


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## glowingtoadfly

& again, thank you for the resources, Carmen.


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## Merciel

glowingtoadfly said:


> Please remember that this is a forum, you only have the exhausted typing of a new dog owner to go on and you haven't seen the behavior and how much she has slowly improved.


You don't have to defend yourself. Really, honestly, you don't.

If you want advice, ask for advice.

If you _don't_ want advice and people persist in trying to tell you what to do anyway, then you might consider their words with whatever weight you feel they deserve (which is sometimes a lot and sometimes  -- there _are_ many very knowledgeable and experienced members on this forum, but there are also a couple of Internet blowhards and outright loonies), but you don't have to respond.

It is also probably better to make a dedicated new thread if you have specific questions and issues, because a lot of the more experienced members are not going to open a thread that appears from the subject line to be a rehash of a tired old training debate, and a lot of the people who _do_ open it are going to be heavily influenced by their own assumptions and agendas rather than reading and answering your question with clear eyes.


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## crackem

I think it's time to take the advice and process it, take some time to think, not defend. Then get out and see trainers and their dogs. See what you like then ask them how they got to that stage, then decide if you're willing to do similar or not. If yes, learn how, ask questions to understand, not try and defend a position. 

If not, find out how to do it differently, think thru it on your own, not every trainer has every answer, and maybe you'll find out there are limitations to things and you'll have to explore new avenues. Maybe you won't like those new avenues so you'll have to learn to accept or manage certain things.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yes! Thank you.


Merciel said:


> You don't have to defend yourself. Really, honestly, you don't.
> 
> If you want advice, ask for advice.
> 
> If you _don't_ want advice and people persist in trying to tell you what to do anyway, then you might consider their words with whatever weight you feel they deserve (which is sometimes a lot and sometimes  -- there _are_ many very knowledgeable and experienced members on this forum, but there are also a couple of Internet blowhards and outright loonies), but you don't have to respond.
> 
> It is also probably better to make a dedicated new thread if you have specific questions and issues, because a lot of the more experienced members are not going to open a thread that appears from the subject line to be a rehash of a tired old training debate, and a lot of the people who _do_ open it are going to be heavily influenced by their own assumptions and agendas rather than reading and answering your question with clear eyes.


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## Blanketback

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yes but from the dogs POV it's the same thing whether for tracking or OB training?
> 
> I don't think that withholding one meal before a big day of training is cruel or inhumane.


I'd like to hear your ideas on why you think it's the same thing, because maybe I'll learn something - but in my mind, they're polar opposites. Tracking is a natural behavior that my dogs do all the time, and I believe I can tell what my pup is tracking by his body posture and movements. I have the advantage of knowing that most of the scent trails belong to either his good friend the lab or his rival the lab mix, or rabbits or squirrels - for the most part. I'm pretty sure that if the coyotes are ever on my property my pup will behave differently too, following where they've been. 

But this scent trailing is an instinct, and if they're hungry then it's a bonus on the track, to forage for this bounty. You don't have to teach them to follow a scent or eat when they're hungry. So that's why I think OB would be the opposite, since you're teaching things that aren't natural. IMO, it's not natural for a dog to heel in position and ignore everything around it. Or to sit when it would rather run. Or to perfect a down/stay when it would rather be at its owner's side. I'm not saying I'm right, but that's my take on things.

As far as depriving meals, I'm not suggesting overfeeding by adding excessive calories in training either. But I have read that feeding dogs on a set schedule isn't the best idea, because they'll get so used to this set time that their bodies will start the digestive process in anticipation of the meal, and the bile and stomach acids will be waiting. I need to find a link to where I read that! Plus, if my dog is hungry then I feed him - he depends on me for food.


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## Gwenhwyfair

If I withhold a meal because I want to increase food drive the dog won't know the reason. It just knows it will feel hungrier before what ever exercise we are about to perform.

Therefore if the dog experiences the same sensation of feeling hungry, regardless if it is for preparation in tracking or preparation for obedience, the purpose of withholding food cannot be parsed out as OK in one instance and unkind in another. Both are creating hunger for food to facilitate training.

Again, I want to emphasize I'm talking for very short periods like skipping a breakfast or one days worth of food. 

Also since I train with the M Ellis "Power of food" method at the beginning we go through a lot of food. So you have to watch out to not over feed because they are getting a lot of food it's just that they are working for it. . Later on the frequency of treats is reduced greatly. I posted a link to a M. Ellis lecture on this earlier in this thread. He explains the theory behind this method and it goes back to Pavlov. 





Blanketback said:


> I'd like to hear your ideas on why you think it's the same thing, because maybe I'll learn something - but in my mind, they're polar opposites. Tracking is a natural behavior that my dogs do all the time, and I believe I can tell what my pup is tracking by his body posture and movements. I have the advantage of knowing that most of the scent trails belong to either his good friend the lab or his rival the lab mix, or rabbits or squirrels - for the most part. I'm pretty sure that if the coyotes are ever on my property my pup will behave differently too, following where they've been.
> 
> But this scent trailing is an instinct, and if they're hungry then it's a bonus on the track, to forage for this bounty. You don't have to teach them to follow a scent or eat when they're hungry. So that's why I think OB would be the opposite, since you're teaching things that aren't natural. IMO, it's not natural for a dog to heel in position and ignore everything around it. Or to sit when it would rather run. Or to perfect a down/stay when it would rather be at its owner's side. I'm not saying I'm right, but that's my take on things.
> 
> As far as depriving meals, I'm not suggesting overfeeding by adding excessive calories in training either. But I have read that feeding dogs on a set schedule isn't the best idea, because they'll get so used to this set time that their bodies will start the digestive process in anticipation of the meal, and the bile and stomach acids will be waiting. I need to find a link to where I read that! Plus, if my dog is hungry then I feed him - he depends on me for food.


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## Blanketback

But...lol...the dog knows that you've missed feeding it. My pup tells me when it's time to eat, since he's fed on a schedule and he knows when that time comes around. I can ignore him and not feed him, but he doesn't just forget about it. Maybe if I used a random feeding schedule it would be different? Anyway, I'm sure that meal deprivation is a very high motivator - it's just not one that I want to use.


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## Galathiel

I feed my pup on a semi-regular schedule .. semi. Morning feeding is usually around 7 am ish (give or take 30 minutes). However, lunch can be anywhere from noon until 3 or 4, as my son comes home and fits it in around his 2 jobs. His evening meal is anywhere from 6:30-9:30. 

Said all that to say .. he doesn't anticipate feedings because it's just enough varied to not be triggered by a 'time'. He plays until I ask him if he's hungry or wants his supper, then he's super excited. He doesn't whine or pace to his bowl or otherwise indicate that it's time to eat. In the evenings, I don't feed him until after class if he has one that day so sometimes it's rather late when he eats.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Blanketback said:


> I took a puppy manners class, and I was advised not to feed my puppy that day, to motivate him. I disagreed with this, and I didn't follow those instructions.


Haven't read the entire thread, but I wanted to comment on this. I agree that starving your dog to get them to comply is wrong (and if that's the only way you can GET your dog to comply, YOU'RE doing something wrong!), but there's a big difference between that and simply training before a meal rather than after. 

If I had a puppy class fairly early in the morning I wouldn't usually feed breakfast before class since puppy would be getting a lot of training treats anyway. I'd feed a lighter meal when we got home and then a normal dinner at the usual time. 

For a mid-day class (I think one of Halo's puppy classes was at 11:00, so it ended at noon), I did feed a small breakfast in the morning before we left for class. I was using some of her kibble as training treats and she was getting enough treats during class that she probably would have been fine until we got home, but it didn't seem fair to make her wait that long for her first real meal of the day. Having some food in her tummy certainly didn't reduce her motivation in the slightest.


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## Blanketback

I don't question using rewards (whether it's food, toys or praise) and I also don't question scaling back on feeding to accommodate for the extra intake when training. That makes perfect sense. But I did have an issue with someone passing as a "positive only" trainer when they told me to omit the usual 3 daily feedings to get a better response at the 7pm class. I just wouldn't do it.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I got what you meant Blanketback, and totally agree with you, I was just using your post as an example.


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## glowingtoadfly

Just thought I would ask, does anyone else sing to their dog? She was about to get snappy with her brother and I sang to her. It calmed her down.


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## Blanketback

It does make you wonder though, what makes people able to rationalize something as "positive" when it seems so negative. This same person had a bird when she knew I was using a prong collar, lol. But seeing the rescue dog shut down with the head harness on didn't phase her - she said the dog would get used to it. Huh? Again, I was wondering where the "positive" was, lol.

ETA: Lol, I like singing to my pup except it really gets him going!


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## glowingtoadfly

Not to change the subject from feeding and training, just wondering.


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## glowingtoadfly

Yah, I would never put a head harness on a shut down dog, Blanketback. That makes me sad to hear about your experience


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## Merciel

Blanketback said:


> It does make you wonder though, what makes people able to rationalize something as "positive" when it seems so negative.


I've seen a fair number of people who call themselves "positive" and do things to their dogs that I would classify as anything but. There's a trainer in my area who loudly and proudly professes to be "purely positive" but who yanks and collar pops dogs constantly. Not only that, but her technique is terrible and completely ineffective (I'm pretty sure she just pops their collars without even realizing it when she gets annoyed; as far as I can tell, and as far as the poor dogs seem to be able to tell, there is no rhyme or reason to the timing of her yanks beyond that).

I could not tell you why that happens, but yes, it's definitely a thing. It's one of many reasons that I'm not so interested in what labels people put on themselves or their dogs, but in what they actually _do_. I don't care about the value judgments; I want to know what the actions are.


As far as singing goes, yes, I sing to my dogs. Usually it's "You Are My Sunshine." They just regard my strange behavior with benign confusion.


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## Blanketback

That dog was fine until the head harness was put on her, except for the pulling on the leash. Then she just folded. She did get kind of used to it, eventually: she'd rub her face on the ground and jump up and down instead of pulling. Yay, progress...not, lol!


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## Gwenhwyfair

My work schedule necessitates wonky feeding schedules sometimes, they're used to it. Sometimes I miss meals too. 

Anyhoo if I didn't do it with Ilda who is spayed she would surely loose her girlish figure!

On the plus side she gets high value tasty treats that she loves, she seems to really enjoy working for it, makes the treats seem even more high value to her and she's at a good healthy weight so I don't worry about it. 


P.s. I read your other posts just now. Just to clarify I wasn't trying to classify it as positive or otherwise. Otherwise it seems we're on the same page about it, I.e. Short periods and to minimize calories.



Blanketback said:


> But...lol...the dog knows that you've missed feeding it. My pup tells me when it's time to eat, since he's fed on a schedule and he knows when that time comes around. I can ignore him and not feed him, but he doesn't just forget about it. Maybe if I used a random feeding schedule it would be different? Anyway, I'm sure that meal deprivation is a very high motivator - it's just not one that I want to use.


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## Blanketback

It sounds like it's a perfect fit for you and Ilda  I wouldn't say "don't do it" because it's working. But I personally will not do it because I don't agree with it and I'd rather keep to a feeding schedule and use higher value items as rewards - and not always food rewards at that.


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## glowingtoadfly

Wow, Merciel. We have the same song!


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## glowingtoadfly

& sometimes I think it is surprise that stops her.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ilda's song........that I sing to her. She starts spinning around and getting all goofy happy.....


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, she's not super high food drive so it works. 

Smitty on the other hand....LOVES food all the time. 



Blanketback said:


> It sounds like it's a perfect fit for you and Ilda  I wouldn't say "don't do it" because it's working. But I personally will not do it because I don't agree with it and I'd rather keep to a feeding schedule and use higher value items as rewards - and not always food rewards at that.


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## glowingtoadfly

Grim and Skadi will tip their heads to the side when I sing fake opera. Especially to the Inspector Gadget theme song. Except I will sing Inspector Grimbo.


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## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ilda's song........that I sing to her. She starts spinning around and getting all goofy happy.....
> 
> 
> 
> The Troggs - Wild Thing (Full Album) - YouTube


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## glowingtoadfly

Skadi starts her IPO obedience tomorrow as the only dog without a prong in the group. I'll post how she does  I am very excited to see her with a flirt pole. My husband has taught her German commands and proofed them outside the house. The one thing we are working on is that she growls if you pet her while she is working.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Good luck! Seriously I hope you and she have fun and achieve your goals.  


(Honestly I'm not all bad.  )


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## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Good luck! Seriously I hope you and she have fun and achieve your goals.
> 
> 
> (Honestly I'm not all bad.  )


You are just a devil to debate lol


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## Carriesue

I did positive only training with my GSD the first year of his life, biggest mistake I ever made! It got me a dog that just blew me off and wasn't reliable. When I added in corrections with a prong/e-collar it totally changed everything, his reliability is improving and our bond is much deeper; he seems happier knowing exactly what I want from him. I just don't believe in one training method fits all for every dog.

The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training - YouTube


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## blackshep

I didn't read all the posts, so forgive me if this has already been said 10 x.

Leerburg did a vid on why positive only doesn't work. I do think it's great for reinforcing wanted behaviours, and is wonderful for puppies and shaping behaviours. But sooner or later your dog is going to need to hear the word NO.

Remember, a correction doesn't mean you're being abusive. It's not meant to hurt or injure the dog and it's not something you do out of anger. 

But also keep in mind, if you have a high drive dog who's high in drive (doing schutzhund, for example), you're probably going to have a very hard time using positive only and being successful.

The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training


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## blackshep

OMG Carriesue, I just posted the exact same link you did. lol


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## middleofnowhere

I don't know if I've posted to this or not. 

Take a look at Sheila Booth's _Purely Positive: Companion to Competition_. Then look at her bio. That should help discount those who maintain that positive doesn't work for working line dogs/schutzhund training.

I get impatient and screw up from time to time. So I'm just a wannabe on the positive side of things.


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## glowingtoadfly

I will have to check that out! I am still interested in positive training despite recently working with a prong.


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## Jax08

glowingtoadfly said:


> I will have to check that out! I am still interested in positive training despite recently working with a prong.


Why do you think you can not train positively if you use a prong? Do you teach your children consequences but still respond to them in a positive manner 98% of the time?

If it's done correctly, they understand what a correction is, and you are consistent then you don't need to have major Come To Jesus moments of correction.


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## glowingtoadfly

I didn't say that the two were mutually exclusive... I still use positive techniques in combination with corrections.


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## Jax08

Well...excuse me. I was asking a serious question with the intent of only sharing insight. I won't do it again. Carry on.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Merciel said:


> It's one of many reasons that I'm not so interested in what labels people put on themselves or their dogs, but in what they actually _do_. I don't care about the value judgments; I want to know what the actions are.


I agree. I don't have a label for how I train, it's just how I train, and what works great for one dog may not be that effective for the other, so I'm constantly learning and adapting.

Even Suzanne Clothier is not a believer in positive only. I've related this story before, but a few years ago I attended a weekend seminar with her and she talked about being with a group of trainers once that she challenged to teach her to do something using only positive methods. When they started, she got up, walked out the door and across the street. No fair they said, how can we teach you something if you leave! Her reply? "You didn't tell me I couldn't". 

While it's great to teach your dog what TO do, and I spend quite a lot of time doing that as foundation work, it's also important to teach your dog what NOT to do.


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## glowingtoadfly

Jax08 said:


> Well...excuse me. I was asking a serious question with the intent of only sharing insight. I won't do it again. Carry on.


I'd be interested to hear the insight, if you don't mind. I was only replying and didn't mean to come off as dismissive. I couldn't get a read on your tone?


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