# switching to kibble questions



## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Koda is now 16 weeks old, he has been fed a raw diet from 8 weeks, which he was doing really good on except that his poop would be very inconsistent after eating his secreting organs (some days he gets diarreah some days he's fine). For those of you who dont know, secreting organs in a raw diet is where they get their vitamins from so in fear of depriving him of vitamins i chose to switch to fromm's large breed puppy food. i have a couple questions

1. First off Koda doesn't eat fast so dont take this as he is gulping his food down. I'm on the third day of feeding kibble and koda seems to kind of caugh up some of his kibble while hes eating, Im assuming its because he's not used to it? I'm also assuming its because he's not chewing his food? the kibble size is really small and i read a little bit about how its normal for dogs to not chew their kibble when the kibble is small. Also raw food holds alot of moister and kibble is super dry so is this why he's caughing it up while hes eating?

2. I'm concerned for his teeth, He has pearly white teeth and i assume its because of all the raw meaty bones he's been eating. Because he isn't chewing his kibble should i give him something like chicken feet to eat every day for his teeth?

For those of you who are concerned with me giving chicken feet while hes on a kibble diet, there is alot of controversy about feeding raw and kibble together in a meal because of different digestion rates, i will be making sure atleast a few hours have passed after feeding kibble before giving him anything raw.

thanks for reading!


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

For coughing up the kibble, since the kibble is dry and he has just been changed over from a raw diet, and considering he is only 16 weeks and could be teething, I would try moistening the kibble.

This older thread has some further comments:
https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/113812-coughing-up-kibble.html

For feeding raw chicken feet to a puppy see the vet's comment:

https://www.petcoach.co/question/?id=185406

i've always fed kibble and my dogs had lovely teeth even when they were seniors. I do brush the teeth daily.


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

I would also suggest soaking the kibble with water and wait until it expands and soaks up some water. It will up the moisture content for hopefully he doesn't cough on it, and will make it easier and faster to digest 

As for teeth you can still give raw meaty bones throughout his life on kibble to keep up the dental care. and if needed get them cleaned at the vet or use a scraper on your own (as long as you are comfortable and careful, and he allows it)


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mary Beth said:


> For coughing up the kibble, since the kibble is dry and he has just been changed over from a raw diet, and considering he is only 16 weeks and could be teething, I would try moistening the kibble.
> 
> This older thread has some further comments:
> https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/113812-coughing-up-kibble.html
> ...



I've been feeding a completely raw diet for over 12 years. Raised dogs from 8 week old puppies that have never eaten kibble. Raw bones do not splinter. A healthy dog can eat chicken quarters and chicken thighs with bones with absolutely no issues. Please, be very careful when taking a veterinarians opinion on a raw diet. For one thing, they get very little training in Veterinary school on nutrition and diet. Secondly, the training they do receive is from Hills Science Diet or a rep from another large dog food manufacturer. Third, vets make money selling specialty diets. 

I have never brushed my dogs teeth and I have never had anything but pearly white teeth. My dogs have lived to 12 - 13 years old and been healthy, athletic animals till the end. Prior, the oldest GSD I had fed on kibble was 8 1/2 - 9 years. Either dying from bloat or cancer. 

@john3043, if you want to feed kibble that is fine. I would watch for allergies to the kibble after switching, including ear infections and skin issues. This is one of the main issues that GSD's have with a kibble diet. Then you begin the fight of medicines and regular vet visits to clear up all the other problems. Your vet will be happy to prescribe meds and sell you expensive specialty diets. 

Regarding your issue with loose stools, that is because you had either too much fat or too much organ meat in that meal. Too much liver will cause black loose stools. This may have been your problem. You may not have the percentages right and causing the loose stools by feeding too much organ meat. 

Regarding bones in the diet, it is essential and critical to have raw bones in the diet of a raw fed dog. Raw chicken quarters are the ideal ratio of meat to bone. I have never fed chicken feet, but raw bone is a critical part of a raw fed diet. I have fed my dogs deer necks and even deer legs with no issues. Although, I now stay away from any weight bearing bones of animals larger than chickens. A raw diet absence of raw bones will be unbalanced and nutritionally incomplete. 

The point is to not give up so quickly on the raw diet do to loose stools. You need to experiment and modify the diet. Im sure too much organ meat in your feedings was the issue.


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## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> I've been feeding a completely raw diet for over 12 years. Raised dogs from 8 week old puppies that have never eaten kibble. Raw bones do not splinter. A healthy dog can eat chicken quarters and chicken thighs with bones with absolutely no issues. Please, be very careful when taking a veterinarians opinion on a raw diet. For one thing, they get very little training in Veterinary school on nutrition and diet. Secondly, the training they do receive is from Hills Science Diet or a rep from another large dog food manufacturer. Third, vets make money selling specialty diets.
> 
> I have never brushed my dogs teeth and I have never had anything but pearly white teeth. My dogs have lived to 12 - 13 years old and been healthy, athletic animals till the end. Prior, the oldest GSD I had fed on kibble was 8 1/2 - 9 years. Either dying from bloat or cancer.
> 
> ...


Im positive i have the percentages right for the rmb and mm.

My problem is, its taken me a solid 3 weeks to get him to only 3.3 percent of his daily dose of liver which is excluding his other 5% of secreting organs (i learned early on that i would have to wait till i was able to feed 5% of his liver before i would be able to introduce him to another organ, his stomache didnt agree with it all) 

So at the 3 week mark he is eating 1.2 ounces of liver daily ( he eats 36 ounces total a day). Right before i try to bump it up a little closer to the recommended 5% of 1.8 ounces his stomach decides it doesnt agree with the liver any more ( i know it was the liver because he would be fine one day, the next day he would have diarreah so i wouldnt feed him liver the following day and his poop would be solid again) this happened a few times last week so i kind of panicked because of how long its been taking and because of how i feel like im depriving him of him nutrients because of not being able to feed him appropriate percentages of his secreting oragans


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## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> I've been feeding a completely raw diet for over 12 years. Raised dogs from 8 week old puppies that have never eaten kibble. Raw bones do not splinter. A healthy dog can eat chicken quarters and chicken thighs with bones with absolutely no issues. Please, be very careful when taking a veterinarians opinion on a raw diet. For one thing, they get very little training in Veterinary school on nutrition and diet. Secondly, the training they do receive is from Hills Science Diet or a rep from another large dog food manufacturer. Third, vets make money selling specialty diets.
> 
> I have never brushed my dogs teeth and I have never had anything but pearly white teeth. My dogs have lived to 12 - 13 years old and been healthy, athletic animals till the end. Prior, the oldest GSD I had fed on kibble was 8 1/2 - 9 years. Either dying from bloat or cancer.
> 
> ...


Also i dont know why i havent thought of this. When i feed him his chicken liver i usually give his whole serving of it for dinner. I feed twice a day. Do you think it would help if i split up his needed serving size so he has half for breakfast and the other half for dinner?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes, that is too much liver in one feeding. I would look into other organ sources and not feed liver everyday. I may feed 1 1/2 ounces of liver in one feeding for a 75 lb adult dog getting 48 ounces of food. I do not feed liver everyday. I do add pureed vegetables into my dogs food, I also add a frozen organ meat blend in. 

I would need to know more about what you are feeding in total to have an idea if your diet is good and balanced.


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## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, that is too much liver in one feeding. I would look into other organ sources and not feed liver everyday. I may feed 1 1/2 ounces of liver in one feeding for a 75 lb adult dog getting 48 ounces of food. I do not feed liver everyday. I do add pureed vegetables into my dogs food, I also add a frozen organ meat blend in.
> 
> I would need to know more about what you are feeding in total to have an idea if your diet is good and balanced.


I’m feeding about 15% bone 75%muscle meat and allocating 5% chicken liver and then 5 % some other kind of secreting organ which I haven’t added yet since I’m waiting for him to get used to 5% liver.

Raw meaty bones I’ve been going back and forth between chicken wings, chicken leg quarter, and turkey necks.

For muscle meat I’ve been rotating through chicken gizzards and hearts, ground beef, ground turkey, ground pork, ground lamb, chicken breast, and sardines, I might be missing something 

I give give him about 2 whole eggs a week. 


When I say 15% bone I take account that for instance chicken leg quarters are around 30% bone. So I would need 5.4 ounces of bone. Which would equate to just under 20 ounces of chicken leg quarter for that day


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## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, that is too much liver in one feeding. I would look into other organ sources and not feed liver everyday. I may feed 1 1/2 ounces of liver in one feeding for a 75 lb adult dog getting 48 ounces of food. I do not feed liver everyday. I do add pureed vegetables into my dogs food, I also add a frozen organ meat blend in.
> 
> I would need to know more about what you are feeding in total to have an idea if your diet is good and balanced.


I forgot to add I feed him some fruits here and there, he loves blueberries lol but doesn’t like bananas too much hah

Thanks man, I’m Definitly taking your advice, like I said I feel guilty making him eat kibble even though I know it’s probably one of the better brands. 

If you have any other suggestions on meaty bones, muscle meats or organs please share haha I love reading about how people are feeding raw. Always good to gather ideas because that just means I can give more of a variety to him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Agree with Slamdunc. Sounds like your proportions aren't right. I did a spreadsheet based on NRC requirements for my dog and the 80/10/10 was "close" but missing so many nutrients like zinc, iodine, selenium and my calcium/phos ratio was pretty off before crunching the numbers..

why don't you put him on a commercial raw for now while he's growing and take the time to really figure out the nutrition?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

john3043 said:


> I’m feeding about 15% bone 75%muscle meat and allocating 5% chicken liver and then 5 % some other kind of secreting organ which I haven’t added yet since I’m waiting for him to get used to 5% liver.
> 
> Raw meaty bones I’ve been going back and forth between chicken wings, chicken leg quarter, and turkey necks.
> 
> ...


You definitely need to adjust a few things. Are you grinding the chicken quarters? Chicken quarters may be a little big for a 12 week old pup. I would feed chicken thighs with bone, the thighs have a very good bone to meat ratio. Also, the chicken thighs will be easier for a pup to eat than the leg quarters. At this age I would also stop the chicken wings. If you do feed chicken wings, I would use the large 3 section wings. 

Here is what I feed as an example, Boru eats about 3lbs a day, he is 76 lbs. He gets approximately 1/34 - 2lbs of chicken thighs with bone. I add in about 2 - 21/2 ounces of a commercial organ meat mix. I add about 2 - 3 ounces of raw tripe, tripe is a very key component of the diet just like the bones. I add plain whole mile yogurt and a "green smoothie mixture. I then add about 8 ounces of ground beef or how ever much it takes that day to get to the amount I want to feed. I feed more in the winter. 

3 - 3 1/2 lbs is an average based on his condition. If he is looking lean I may go up a little, if he is adding weight on then I will adjust down. I do not get all wrapped around the axles about exact percentages. I vary the diet each week, make sure the dog gets varied organ and muscle meat. I add the tripe in almost every day along with the green smoothie mix. If I miss a day of tripe, organ meat or smoothie, I do not worry about it. Occasionally, I will fast the dogs for a day. 

Overall, I feed a consistent diet that hits all the bases. If I miss organ meat for a day or two it is not a big deal. I do add in liver but only an ounce or so a day. You are a little confused about the organ meat ratio. 2 ounces of liver is way to much, even for an adult dog to be able to digest. You will wind up with black, tarry stools. That 5 % organ guideline is not for one organ meat alone, like liver. 

Part of learning the raw diet is experimentation. Things to consider is that too much bone will constipate the dog. Too much fat will cause loose stools as well. While it is all about a balanced diet, not every meal may be exactly balanced. I look for the overall feeding to be balanced. Periodically, I will have some bloodworm done to confirm everything is going well. I had blood work done a few years ago on a 11 year old female GSD, that lived to 13. The vet called with the results and said "Everything looks good with your dog's blood work. Wait, is this dog 10 years old? WOW! Everything is terrific." 

You need to make a few changes, add in some additional organ meat and tripe. Add in some pureed green vegetables and yogurt. Cut back on the liver, it is too much for a young dog. Switch to chicken quarters and avoid the wings and leg quarters. Watch your dog's condition and stools, adapt your diet to the dog. Your pup will be fine.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

_You need to make a few changes, add in some additional organ meat and tripe. Add in some pureed green vegetables and yogurt. Cut back on the liver, it is too much for a young dog. Switch to *chicken quarters* and avoid the wings and leg quarters. Watch your dog's condition and stools, adapt your diet to the dog. Your pup will be fine_.

I meant switch to say chicken thighs over the chicken quarters. 

Also, I meant "blood work" and not "blood worm." Flipping auto correct!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LIver is extremely high in vit. A. That is fat soluble so you want to be careful how much is in the diet. I make a grind of liver, spleen and kidney. Next time I make it, I will drastically decrease the amount of liver based on the numbers I have for the nutrient content. I'm not sure where the 80/10/10 ratio came from or if there is any scientific backing for it. but that 10% organ meat is high in my opinion. I would go more with Jim' 5% and mix that with the organs listed above. 

I prefer necks but if you use those, keep in mind that a chicken neck is 36% bone. Turkey and duck are different ratios. Feeding raw isn't great rocket science but you do still need to have this kind of information to do it properly. 

****Edited percentage of bone in chicken neck. Duck is 50% not chicken


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

percentage of bone in RMB's
https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2017/03/14/bone-fat-content-percentages-in-raw-meaty-bones/

https://perfectlyrawsome.com/raw-fe...-bone-guide/bone-percentages-in-cuts-of-meat/


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## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Thank you all for your input, i wonder why so many people recommend 10% total organs, I'll stick with 1 ounce of liver a day since his poops are ok with that. I'm going to try to slowly start adding back beef kidney after a week of solid poops back on his raw diet.

I feel like i have a pretty good grasp on Proportions. I have a chart that tells me percentages of all rmb i'm feeding and i already went through the too little bone (runny poop) and then too much bone (too hard of poop) in his diet stages so i learned what to look for when it comes to his poops and i have found a solid ratio of meat to bone for his poops to be good.

I heard tripe is needed i just didnt want to start feeding it until i got him to appropriate organ levels. What kind of tripe do you get? i get all my food from walmart and winco i wonder if they would have some tripe there.

I mainly used the wings for when he was younger, i'm mostly feeding turkey neck and leg quarters ( he isnt 12 weeks slamdunc, he's 16 weeks and he seems to be doing just fine with leg quarters).


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

john3043 said:


> Thank you all for your input, i wonder why so many people recommend 10% total organs, I'll stick with 1 ounce of liver a day since his poops are ok with that. I'm going to try to slowly start adding back beef kidney after a week of solid poops back on his raw diet.
> 
> I feel like i have a pretty good grasp on Proportions. I have a chart that tells me percentages of all rmb i'm feeding and i already went through the too little bone (runny poop) and then too much bone (too hard of poop) in his diet stages so i learned what to look for when it comes to his poops and i have found a solid ratio of meat to bone for his poops to be good.
> 
> ...


Leg quarters are ok. They are cheap and easy to get. Remember, I've been feeding dogs raw for a while and I can only share my experience, what I've learned and changes that I have made. Chicken quarters can be rough on a dog's teeth. Over time, crushing heavier bones can wear teeth down like the drum stick. Occasionally, I will find whole chickens on sale at a good price, cut it in half and hand it to my dogs. It takes my dogs a couple of minutes to eat half a chicken. 

After feeding quarters for many years, I have found that thighs are really a better option. They have a good bone to meat ratio, around 25% give or take and they will not damage the teeth after 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 years of eating them. This is just what I do and I did use leg quarters for years. I buy my chicken quarters in 40 lb cases. I did the same with the leg quarters. Leg quarters would definitely be a little cheaper, I am just happier feeding the thighs. I think it is a better option.

The tripe is a very important component tp the raw diet. it has to be raw, green tripe. Not the bleached tripe that you will find in Walmart or the grocery store. You can order it frozen online or find a local dealer.


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## john3043 (Jun 12, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> Leg quarters are ok. They are cheap and easy to get. Remember, I've been feeding dogs raw for a while and I can only share my experience, what I've learned and changes that I have made. Chicken quarters can be rough on a dog's teeth. Over time, crushing heavier bones can wear teeth down like the drum stick. Occasionally, I will find whole chickens on sale at a good price, cut it in half and hand it to my dogs. It takes my dogs a couple of minutes to eat half a chicken.
> 
> After feeding quarters for many years, I have found that thighs are really a better option. They have a good bone to meat ratio, around 25% give or take and they will not damage the teeth after 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 years of eating them. This is just what I do and I did use leg quarters for years. I buy my chicken quarters in 40 lb cases. I did the same with the leg quarters. Leg quarters would definitely be a little cheaper, I am just happier feeding the thighs. I think it is a better option.
> 
> The tripe is a very important component tp the raw diet. it has to be raw, green tripe. Not the bleached tripe that you will find in Walmart or the grocery store. You can order it frozen online or find a local dealer.


Thank you once again man, i'm going to look around to see if anyone has it in my area. I hear they are filled with a ton of vitamins like organs are, im guessing i shouldnt be feeding too much of it since it might make him have diarreah? how much tripe do you feed a day?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Your welcome! 

I feed about 2 -3 ounces when I feed tripe. You could feed more, it won't cause any digestive issues. Tripe is an integral part of a good raw diet.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

I am using from large breed puppy food. I let it soak in hot tap water until soft. After making sure it is not to hot, my pup eats. No coughing up any food this way.


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