# Can you go Raw without the bone?



## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

Can a raw diet be fed replacing the bone with something else? I am interested in the concept of a raw diet but just paranoid about that portion of it. Thanks


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## MelissaHoyer (Sep 8, 2006)

Yes, you can....but it is more challenging to keep the calcium levels balanced. You have to add a source of calcium that they would normally get from the RMBs (raw meaty bones). Ground eggshells can be used.

Have you considered feeding ground RMBs? You could get a grinder and buy them yourself -or- buy them already ground. I personally get mine from a company called Oma's Pride. I get ground turkey frames and ground chicken frames.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Rafi eats a partial raw diet. I buy grinds from Primal Pet food. They sell 5 lb. tubes and they're pretty affordable ($10). Bravo also makes grinds and they sell 10 lb. tubes.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

I agree with getting a grinder, personally. I only feed a partial raw diet (usually I give The Honest Kitchen (dehydrated raw) plus raw chicken on the bone) about 2-3 times per week. Otherwise, Kodee eats Orijen (grain free). I was the same way - I was terrified when Kodee ate his first raw egg! Then when he ate that and didn't croak on the spot, we moved to raw chicken on the bone. After the first few times of him eating bones and seeing how much he loved them, and how well he chewed them up, it doesn't bother me anymore. I still do watch him while he eats (i.e. I don't give him bones and then leave the room. He eats his raw meals while I'm in the kitchen with him). Now he gets any part of chicken on the bone, along w/raw marrow bones as treats one or two times per week. I give raw ground beef and turkey a time or two, but he's not crazy about beef, and the turkey bothered him or something - gave him diarrhea if I remember right.

It is easier to get the calcium ratio correct when you feed the bones, and it's great for keeping their teeth clean. The teeth cleaning alone is enough for me to give him raw bones on a regular basis. (I'd like to prevent having him put under general anesthesia one day just to clean his teeth). But if you just can't stand the thought of giving bones whole (which I understand), a grinder would be a good investment. JMO. Good luck!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

What is the reason for wanting to avoid the bone? Bone is the best part of raw diet!! Crunching RMBs cleans the teeth like nothing else. All of my dogs have pearly whites and I've watched fosters come in here with the vet recommending a dental and leave not needing one purely from raw diet.


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

I did not know you could purchase grinds. It is hard to locate some things here In Alaska and many items are a problem for shipping to us but I will look around and check that out. I do like the idea of buying a grinder and just doing it myself though. Also that gives me the idea of checking with the local places that we deal with when we butcher moose meat (they bulk grind it into hamburger for us). 

I was able to find some Whole Dog Journal articles that address the calcium requirement and using egg shells so I think I understand that option a little better now too.

Maybe I can eventually teach him to eat the bone himself but right now he must be picking up my vibes because when offered one he just looks at me like "don't you know I could choke to death on that" and walks off. From day one food has never been very high on his value system though. Every time I put the food down we have the same conversation "Mom, I'd really rather just play ball" "No Boss, your gonna get rickets if you don't eat" and then after I entice him to start eating the first few bites he's like "oh ya - I guess I am hungry" and will finish while I threaten to sell him to the gypsies. His focus is just not on food!

Thanks for the ideas. Now, do you have any good ones for disguising the organ meat? He liked the dehydrated liver treats I used during obedience class but when I tried to give him raw liver last week he was very "suspious" and refused it. The only thing that he truly seems to love is cheese so I am thinking maybe liver nachos?


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Yes you can do a raw diet without bone. 

But remember that bones contain calcium and phosporous- not just calcium. So egg shells would not be a good substitute for the bones as they only contain calcium. 

Bonemeal would be a better option as it provides both.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

What kind of meat/bones have you offered him? Anything other than moose? Kodee is kind of picky - he will eat raw hamburger, but surprisingly enough to me, he doesn't go nuts over it. However, he loves raw chicken (on the bone). The first time I gave it to him, he kind of looked at it like he didn't know what to do with it (he'd been on kibble for a few months), but after a while he picked it up, and once he had a taste, he couldn't get enough. Be careful offering organ meat, the first time I gave some (liver) to Kodee, I only gave him what I thought was a small amount (maybe 1/4-1/2 c., and he ate it (suspiciously, as well), but then he vomited it up. Turns out I gave him way too much. Start really, really small w/organ meat - it's really rich. 

Just experiment and see what your dog likes. Good luck!


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

"What kind of meat/bones have you offered him? Anything other than moose?"

For meat he has had moose and likes it but the price per pound for moose by the time you get it in the freezer is expensive so it is reserved for huiman consumption and we buy beef for Boss. He has also had chicken but seems to like beef more (and it gives the excuse of saying he has mad cow disease when he is being goofy). Cooked salmon he likes. For bones I have only tried to offer him chicken. I think he needs a training dog to show him what to do with bones. The first time I offered him a hard boiled egg I got the what the heck is that look so I rolled it like a ball on the floor and that got his interest. He played with it for a minute than ate it. Since his focus in life is chasing/playing with things I think I will buy some chicken wings today and take one out in the yard and throw it around for him to see if it sparks his interest in it.


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

Just to report in.... got back from the market with a whole chicken and offered him a thigh - got the usually no thanks. I stripped most of the meat off it and took it out in the yard and tossed it around for him - showed interest in it but did not eat it. I held it in my hand and gave the "tug" command (another game he loves) and he sunk his teeth into it. When it cracked under his jaw strength I could see the light bulb go off for him that this was like his bully stick or nylabone - something to be chewed on. I must admit I was nervous watching him swallow what looked to me like sharp little pieces of bone but still proud that he caught on. Next I took the the little bit of neck that is left on a whole bird and a couple inches off the backbone and cut it into "meatball" size chunks. No initial interest but then I tossed it around a little and after a couple pounces on it he ate it and said "that was lip smacking good - got any more?". I told him "nope, Mom can only handle so much stress in one day, let's quit while were ahead". It's been over an hour and he is still fine but I know I'm not gonna be able to relax until I see that his system can process this all the way thru. Until then... let's see - the vet's phone number is on speed dial #1, don't really want to leave the car running but I can leave my purse and keys in it, sleep dressed with my shoes on tonight, etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Don't be alarmed if you see runny poo's the first few days, and if you have a white,chalky poo, then your pup is getting too much bone. If you overfeed, the runny poo will be there, but in the beginning of transition, my dogs did have the runs for a couple of days. If you had another dog for Boss to compete with, he would have chomped it and gulped it, before you could take a pic of his first raw meal(that is what happened with us!) I felt the same as you in the beginning, but after the first couple of meals, it was no big deal.


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

It's a *Miracle*! We survived the night without any emergency trips to the vet due to feeding raw bone!











> Quoteon't be alarmed if you see runny poo's the first few days


Poop looked good this morning. He has been on grain free kibble with extra goodies mixed in all the time and never has had a problem with variety upsetting his system.



> Quote:If you had another dog for Boss to compete with, he would have chomped it and gulped it


I do believe that to be so true - we have always seen that in the past with 2 dogs. Sometime in the next year I hope to have a second one running around here


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: AK GSDIt's a *Miracle*! We survived the night without any emergency trips to the vet due to feeding raw bone!


I love this, thanks for the smile!

By the way, Dante will from time to time errrrp up a turkey vertabrae. First time freaked me out, now I just let him have it again


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Also remember, most kibble has been sprayed with "flavor enhancers" - fat - to make it SMELL good to a dog.

Raw meat has very little odor. For a dog used to kibble it may take some convincing that the raw meat really IS food.









When people are ready to offer their dog the first raw meal I usually suggest letting the dog skip a meal first to make them good and hungry.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangAlso remember, most kibble has been sprayed with "flavor enhancers" - fat - to make it SMELL good to a dog.
> 
> Raw meat has very little odor. For a dog used to kibble it may take some convincing that the raw meat really IS food.
> 
> ...


The first time I offered Dante a Turkey neck he gave it a lick or two and then looked at me like WTH?







Then I asked him to tug which of course got his teeth buried in it. He never looked back!! 
I've also heard that for some dogs very lightly searing the first piece can entice them to make that first full bite.


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

Earlier in this thread I posted the standard dinner conversation.



> Quote: "Mom, I'd really rather just play ball" "No Boss, your gonna get rickets if you don't eat" and then after I entice him to start eating the first few bites he's like "oh ya - I guess I am hungry" and will finish while I threaten to sell him to the gypsies.


This is the new dinner conversation since going off kibble. 

I go in the kitchen and he is right there pronto:
Boss: Whatcha making?
Mom: I thought you would rather play ball than eat?
Boss: A fella's got a right to change his mind - doesn't he?

After he slurps up his meal, he looks up adoringly at me.
Boss: Your the best... my favorite!
Mom: I just heard you tell Dad that 10 minutes ago.
Boss: A fella's got a right to change his mind - doesn't he?
Mom: Your a fickle fella

Now that is just when serving the MM. With the RMB it's a little different still:
Boss: What am I supposed to do with that?
Mom: You remember, just like yesterday.
Boss: I forget.

My DH tells me men cannot remember more than three things at one time. If a fourth thing is to be added to their memory, one of the first three things has to be erased. At least that is the story I get when I ask him to stop at the market and he picks up 3 out of the 4 items requested. I guess Boss subscribes to the same theory. 

Boss has always had a shiny nice coat but in just the couple days change in diet it has become softer feeling - almost like silk. It is so nice to just put the plate down and have him eat and really seem to enjoy it vs. just being a chore he has to do! 

Thanks for all the pointers.


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## canucme278 (Apr 18, 2002)

Be careful not to offer too big of a variety in the beginning. You can over whelm them with too many different things at once. Stick with chicken for a while then offer turkey, then later beef and pork.


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