# Bloody Diarrhea



## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

OK... so Berghoff (who is dealing with hives from allergies and possibly recovering from distemper) was doing great on raw but starting yesterday he's had diarrhea that has continued through to today. He was up 4 times last night and he's also having trouble peeing. Today the diarrhea is just basically small pools of blood. I've seen small pieces of bone in it. I've also seen a couple of soft white globs in it (maybe fully digested bone?).

HELP! I didn't feed him any raw chicken this morning. I had a can of solid gold beef tripe in the pantry so I decided to go with that until I can figure out what the heck is going on? I also gave him double probiotics in his water this morning. I don't want to take him BACK to the ER but I'll do what's necessary.

My husband will bring home pumpkin, cottage cheese, and yogurt at lunch. Is there a digestive aid for digesting the bone?

His spirits are generally good. He's not more lethargic but he is doing some whining. 

Sigh. I just want this pup to get better and feel better.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I would take him to the vet - not sure why a regular vet wouldn't be open - but would do it ASAP as it could be HGE - not saying it is, not saying anything, but he needs his bloodwork checked to see how his blood is flowing. 
Bloody Diarrhea - Hemorrhagic GastroEnteritis (HGE) in Dogs


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree with Jean on taking him to the vet. He has so much going on, you dont want to take any chances. The green tripe is perfect to get rid of the diarrhea. Dont feed anything but the green tripe until his stools are firm again (unless we have something else going on with him). I just went through my puppies having loose stools, kept them on green tripe for a week, solid stools, now gradually adding the raw mix back into their diet.

I am not familiar with what distemper would cause, so a vet visit would be in order. Bring some of the bloody stool if you can. Having trouble peeing? Wonder if he is dehydrated and just doesnt have any thing to pee out. Puppies can easily get UTI. So that could be a cause too. Since his immune systems is compromised, he is more susceptible to coming down with other things.


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I would take him to the vet - not sure why a regular vet wouldn't be open - but would do it ASAP as it could be HGE - not saying it is, not saying anything, but he needs his bloodwork checked to see how his blood is flowing.
> Bloody Diarrhea - Hemorrhagic GastroEnteritis (HGE) in Dogs


Thanks. I don't like his regular vet and I'm not sure I want to hear what they have to say about the raw diet. The ER is awesome though. 

I was hoping it was something relatively normal during the transition. Apparently not. Sigh. I guess it's gonna be back to the doc for Bergs. He was at the neurologist yesterday. The ER two nights before that. Uggh. It has been almost 2K for this little pup with no end in sight. That little rant said, I love him and I'll do what I need to do.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Wow! Well, good luck, I hope it's not something like HGE, but if it is, it's heavy IV fluids and they have a good prognosis. But you have to get them in fast or their veins just clog up with sludge...and obviously, that's not good. 

I had a dog with it this fall and the white blobs for HER were sloughing of her GI tract. 

The raw feeding of course adds other questions - I hope when you get to the ER it's all very clear and he will be well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

green tripe is low on nutrition but teeming with probiotics and digestive enzymes so will do him good . Tripett is a canned variety that you can get. Poor little guy.

If it were me , I would get to the vet before feeding the dog anything . Pool of blood just sounds horrible . You don't want to be covering up the cause of this .

Pumpkin works because of the fibre and , bonus, it provides some moisture. Make sure it is plain vegetable pumpkin , not pumpkin pie filling. Kaopectate from your drugstore is good to have on hand for emergencies.

good luck 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

At ER now. Will update soon.

Thanks everyone!!


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

OK... I'm home now. Berghoff is staying at the clinic until he provides an appropriate stool sample.

First and foremost, I got a thorough talking to about feeding raw and when the vet heard I wasn't feeding a pre-packaged raw diet but a more prey model she looked at me like I had 6 heads!!! She told me to put money away for surgery bills for when they need to remove a chicken bone from his intestines or esophagus. She made me feel like a HORRIBLE person! Not like I did it with malice but that I was just snookered by someone. What is really funny is that the vet tech said she would feed raw if it wasn't so much effort. 

Anyway, he has Giardia and some blood count was really funky and he may have leukemia. So, that's nice.  I'm waiting for a call to go and get him and I'm really torn on what to feed him tonight and for the next couple of days.

She says cooked chicken and rice. Thoughts?


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## evybear15 (Mar 28, 2011)

The "back-up" vet that we rarely go to makes us feel awful for the times that we fed our dog raw chicken. Granted, our pup can't handle chicken....but he went on for so long about how ALL raw meat is contaminated and should never be given to dogs. Some vets are just extremely opinionated..

So sorry that you and little Berghoff are going through all of this. I hope you get to bring him home soon!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Dogs can develop colitis suddenly. I had it happen to fosters a few times. It looked very dramatic and then it disappeared as suddenly as it came. Stress can cause it in sensitive dogs, one got it after transport. He tests came back normal and she was fine the next day.
I also had a vet that treated my like a criminal for feeding raw. You get used to it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vets will berate you when you feed raw, there are very few that support it. They will look at the diet as the cause for problems vs what is actually causing the digestive upset.
In the almost 4 yrs I've fed raw, two of my dogs have gotten a tummy bug,(one barfing, one diarrhea) I don't blame the diet...otherwise they have been very healthy. 
I would give some slippery elm when you can start feeding again to help heal the gut.
I hope Berghoff is on the mend as I type this!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Us raw feeders are used to the 'head tilt'. What do you mean raw? Duh, as in not cooked. Ever see a wolf carry a hibachi on his back? Duh! Sorry, I get mad at other peoples ignorance. Like their way is the only way. I just started a thread today in the raw feeding section, a vet is actually putting her dogs back on raw to do a trial study. Cooked chicken/rice mixture is fine for getting back on track, but so is green tripe. I have the proof in my house right now. They are on cam.

Littlehaus German Shepherd Dogs Cam 1

Lots of people feed raw successfully. If dogs were dying left and right from a raw diet, we wouldnt do it. How many died from contaminated kibble?? One was too many! My puppies have pooped out whole chicken wing bones. They are actually rounded on both ends and come out fine. Guess the vet should study chicken anatomy too. My vet doesnt lecture me on anything. If I have questions on something that my research hasnt been conclusive with, she is there to help. No lectures! We only go to the vet for an annual visit and if breeding needs arise. 

Okay, I am jumping off my soap box, you can have your thread back now.


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## Zeusismydog (Aug 23, 2001)

I hope your pup is ok. Please update us when you can. Sending positive thoughts your way.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Hoping your pup gets better poor baby. Yes I have had vets tell me they do not believe in raw. I am happy that my current vet is holistic and has nothing bad to say about my dogs diet. Next time a vet gives you that line of BS remind them about how many dogs dies from tainted kibble and how many times is kibbled recalled? When is the last time you heard of meat being recalled, I can say I have never heard of it!


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Sending positive and healing thoughts for little Berg!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

You have been through so much with Bergs . He is so lucky to have you. You really saved him. 
Here is some advice on WHEN you are ready to put him back on raw. Prepare his gut flora first , get his beneficial bacteria restored. Likely he has been on anti biotics so he wil be pretty bankrupt.

I will consider it a pleasure to help in the recovery of Berg's by contributing a very dense probiotic and digestive aide supplement , made by me. No charge. Just PM me and give me your postal address. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I heard recently that human grade meat has bacteria levels that aren't safe, staph contaminants/ resistant to antibiotics. 
If we don't get sick from it, I assume our dogs can handle it. ....Drug resistant bacteria in meat? Safe food handling - Boston.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

dogs can handle things we can not, this is one reason that we have to cook meat thoroughly - 
this is also the reason I suggested getting the dogs intestinal flora amped so that he does not become overwhelmed with bacterial over load. 

food supply is in quite a mess -- did my thing at a huge Wholistic grocery today -- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Carmen, do you give colostrum to your dogs?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope your little guy is ok. I would definitely take Carmen up on her offer and I would also do only homecooked for a while. You can find a diet that will support his special needs.


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

Thank you everyone... you all are simply the best!!

Berghoff is better today. They gave him prescription ID food while they had him yesterday and he's been given a boatload of meds. He is on two antibiotics and panacur for the giardia. He had a lot of blood (with no real poop) coming out yesterday morning BUT then he didn't poop again. They gave me some cans of ID to take home and I gave him one last night. I'm not thrilled but he wanted to eat it so I'm choosing my battles and it'll be the last can of that he gets (and a sick dog needs corn, why?)! Wilderness has their 95% meat varieties, which I have in my pantry from before I started the raw, which I'll probably give him. I just took him out for a small walk and he did finally poop a multi-colored pudding-like poop so I'm happy.

I think Carmen is right, his gut just might not have been up for the raw just yet. He has been through a lot and even though I believe raw is best, maybe he just can't digest it yet? The only problem I'm having is, won't the raw help him get better? blech... I don't know what I'm doing and I feel really confused.

Interesting note about the vet and the raw thing. She was telling me all about how dogs have been domesticated for a bazillion years and they aren't wolfs... yadda yadda yadda. She gasped when I told her I give the chicken, bones and all (the bones sent her over the edge), and then she tells me about all the high quality foods out there. I tell her I think the foods are CR*P. She tells me that if I try a home cooked diet I'll give him nutritional deficiencies. Eventually I get around to the question, "well, isn't there bone in the commercially prepared foods?". And she says, "yes, but don't worry about that, it's an appropriate food source for dogs. It's natural, if you will." At that point I just stopped talking. OK, so when I'm giving him chicken you balk at me giving him bone BUT then you forget I'm giving him bone and go on to tell me how bone is good for them when you are defending the pet food companies. What the heck?! So ground up bone from questionable sources is GOOD and fresh bone from the local grocer is BAD?


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> You have been through so much with Bergs . He is so lucky to have you. You really saved him.
> Here is some advice on WHEN you are ready to put him back on raw. Prepare his gut flora first , get his beneficial bacteria restored. Likely he has been on anti biotics so he wil be pretty bankrupt.
> 
> I will consider it a pleasure to help in the recovery of Berg's by contributing a very dense probiotic and digestive aide supplement , made by me. No charge. Just PM me and give me your postal address.
> ...


Ummm... THAT IS AWESOME!!! Your kindness is beyond appreciated and again I'll say, I'm blown away by this board. I've gotten so much support here and now this. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.

You are right, he has been on antibiotics and the foster family was giving him Iams puppy so he wasn't exactly being nutritionally bolstered. I don't blame them, they have a lot of animals that they help/foster but he just needed more nutritional support.

I swear, this poor little dog has been through the wringer! This is like trial by fire for my husband and I... Bergs is our first dog and I'm guessing most anything after this will be a piece of cake! :laugh:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

your dog is getting more anti biotics

You need to give the dog some probiotics.

Bone in commercial dog food is twice or three times backed long bone from weight bearing limbs -- may as well be rock or it is calcium -- if it is from a mature beast, the weight bearing limb chances are there are traces of lead . 

calcium carbonate - chalk - rock.

Raw bones from fowl or rabbit good . Egg Shells . Greens- grasses bio available calcium, seeds , bio available source of calcium. Blood from fresh meat , bio available source of calcium. Yogurt source of calcium . Calcium citrate is better for absorption than calcium carbonate - Citracel being a commercially available product. 

Before you go back to feeding raw give your dog a proper digestive system . With all the anti biotics the dog has had you have and giving still he is going to be wiped out , vulnerable to infections . Feeding lifeless kibble is not going to add to his health. Feed kibble if that is your choice but add some digestive enzymes and probiotics.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I contribute to shelters and rescue organizations all the time. I see the results .
posted a lot of information on anti biotics on the lupus thread . Glad if I can help you.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I wouldn't feed rich canned food right now. I would feed a bland diet with overcooked grain (brown rice or oatmeal or quinoa) or sweet potato plus cooked chicken breast or thigh and some pureed veggies and plain canned pumpkin. 

You have to give his gut a rest!


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Hope your pup will be okay!

I had great success with home prepared in addition to a large amount of probiotics...lots of different strains, and multiple brands. I allowed my pup to eat home prepared for 2-3 months before switching anything. He also got phytomucil to help calm and soothe his gut. 

Take Carmen up on her generous offer. Everything you do in terms of switching food should be S.L.O.W, aside from the immediate transition to home prepared.

Edit: Remember to give probiotics at least 2 hours before or after antibiotics.


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Feeding lifeless kibble is not going to add to his health. Feed kibble if that is your choice but add some digestive enzymes and probiotics.
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


No! I don't want to feed kibble. I gave him the one can if ID because I knew he was eating it at the vet. I was gonna feed the 95% meat wet food by Wilderness while trying to figure out what to give him and then arranging the shopping/cooking. I was thinking cooked chicken, or ground beef, with the rice (as suggested) but I wasn't sure about the rice. It seems inappropriate but I want him to feel stronger.

I've also been giving him Five-Lac but I'm not sure it's enough to combat all the antibiotics. I'd rather he not take them but I don't want to take any chances if he has a systemic infection. Any suggestions on the diet for now? I know you said that your product has a digestive enzyme as well as a probiotic (YAY) and I would guess that would be really helpful for him if he's having tummy trouble. The vet also mentioned that GSD's sometimes have a problem utilizing and absorbing nutrition, is that true? I'm guessing the digestive enzyme will certainly help with that, too!



BowWowMeow said:


> I wouldn't feed rich canned food right now. I would feed a bland diet with overcooked grain (brown rice or oatmeal or quinoa) or sweet potato plus cooked chicken breast or thigh and some pureed veggies and plain canned pumpkin.
> 
> You have to give his gut a rest!


Do you think the Wilderness 95% meat is too rich? I was only using it while I figured out what the heck to do and I think I'll do the boiled chicken or ground beef. How do you decide on the amount when you remove the bone?




unloader said:


> Hope your pup will be okay!
> 
> I had great success with home prepared in addition to a large amount of probiotics...lots of different strains, and multiple brands. I allowed my pup to eat home prepared for 2-3 months before switching anything. He also got phytomucil to help calm and soothe his gut.
> 
> ...


I've been doing probiotics but I'm not sure its enough. I already PM'd Carmen and I'm beyond thrilled with her offer. I'm excited that I can get him something TRULY good for him. How did you decide on how much to feed your pup? Did you serve it warm but were you able to cook in advance in bulk? Did you vary the menu or was it always roughly the same?

Thanks everyone!!!


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## duttlyn (Mar 30, 2011)

4evrlove said:


> Carmen, do you give colostrum to your dogs?


I actually have some colustrom here that I've been adding to his water once in a while. I figured it couldn't hurt!


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

duttlyn said:


> How did you decide on how much to feed your pup? Did you serve it warm but were you able to cook in advance in bulk? Did you vary the menu or was it always roughly the same?
> 
> Thanks everyone!!!


I started small, with about a 1/2lb raw weight ground beef, spread across 3-4 meals. I also added about 1-2 tablespoons of overcooked brown rice each meal.

I monitored his stools over the next day or two, and if I saw progression, I increased the amount slowly. He was 60lbs when I started and I got him up to 2.5lbs of raw weight beef per day...cooked, rinsed and drained. By the end of the 2-3 months on that diet, he was up to 75lbs with small nice poops only once a day. My goal was to test his max kcal intake, which for him was an estimated 2100kcal.

I was very methodical and wrote down quantity of food, probiotics/supplements, and evaluated his stools. Keep a journal or create a log, it helps a lot. That way you can track his progress also.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Also, I'm with Ruth...forget the canned food. Go to the grocery today and pick up a few pounds of beef or chicken. My butcher gave me a good deal on bulk ground beef, so I started buying 10lbs at a time. I ended up going the 95/5 (meat/fat) route, but was feeding 80/20 for a while.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

package in mail today for you -- will answer colostrum later tonight after my day is done


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I would start him on green tripe. Nothing complicated that is going to upset his stomach more. Not sure if Carms supplement can be mixed with it, probably can. You will need to keep him on one thing, and one thing only, until his stools are firmed up. I know you are giving him what you have on hand just to get food into him. Where are you located?? Wondering what sources you have nearby to get green tripe from.

If you are going the cooked ground chicken/beef/ turkey and rice mixture, start with the chicken or turkey. Less grease to upset the stomach. And like I said, you need to just feed him either the cooked food or green tripe and stick with it until his stools are firm again. I am feeding my pups raw mixes from Oma's Pride, and mix the green tripe with it. This is fed 3x a day. They did have bout with diarrhea and I fed just the green tripe and cleared up fine. I then started mixing some of the mixes back in slowly. Slowly is defined over a week or two. If diarrhea starts back up, you back off and go back to what gave them firm stool. K9 Power Products sells a product called Puppy Gold. I give this to my pups daily, but I would not start yours on it until his stomach is better (of course this is only a suggestion).


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Start with the leanest meat possible. If he can handle chicken then start with that. Turkey is harder on the gut than chicken. If you choose beef then be sure to buy lean ground beef or buffalo (I used to use buffalo for my dog who couldn't handle chicken). 

Finding tripe can be difficult. A good pet food store will carry tripette but i find that is difficult to digest for dogs who have issues with fat (Rafi can only have a little at a time).


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