# Desperately need advice..



## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

This is a long one but I really need to get advice before I make a mistake..We have a half german shepherd. .. we rescued her from bad people 8 years ago.. She had been left outside in minus 45* weather and was terribly abused..Friends of mine told me about her and without a thought, we went and got her.. I promised her that she would retire with me and never be abused again. It took weeks to get her to be a normal dog.. she had never played with a toy, never got any treats and she would pee everytime someone went near her.. she wouldn't make a sound.. after alot of patience and loving care, she was the best.. she would bark and vocalize and played and trained well.. We had a purebred shepherd that was her best friend. He passed away four years ago and we ended up getting a puppy.. she took to him and they became good friends, then we got another and again, she was great.. Over a year ago, we got a call over a female that needed a good home right away and we got her within hours. Our home was full but happy.. In the last couple of months, Rana (our half shepherd) started to become aggressive towards our other females.. They would be sleeping and she would get up, go over to one of them, get the hackles up and then hit them in the head with her own.. They would not react but ignore it and go back to sleep.. If one went across the room, she would try to bite them in the neck.. I knew this was her attempt at dominating and would correct it.. 

Then out of the blue, we came home to the house full of blood and hair.. all the girls were injured .. our male was fine.. so from that point on, we would separate them when we had to go out.. Then the last couple of weeks., Rana was getting more aggressive by trying to attack either of the girls unprovoked.. Then when someone walked by outside, and all of them would bark, she would attack one of the girls. 

Then the worst happened.. I thought i had complete control over the pack and when I would raise my voice, they did listen. I was sitting minding my business and for no reason, Rana attacked full fledge on one of our females.. It was horrible.. The one female that she attacked was trying to get away and the other one went to the other side of the room.. Rana had the one by the neck and was trying to rip and tear.. I yelled and jumped up and Rana would not listen.. The other one was trying to defend herself while trying to get under the table to get away. but Rana would not give up.. Without thinking.. i got in between to try to separate them and got the female trying to get away behind me.. I was sitting in front of her and Rana attacked me.. she got a hold of my hand, looked into my eyes and crunched down harder.. I felt the crack and the pop of my hand and she would not let go even with me screaming in agony.. Our other female then jumped in and bit Rana on her side to get her away and Rana loosened her hold so that i could get my hand out and out of the way.. Rana then went back to attacking the first female that she started with.. Our male then jumped in after I screamed in pain..then stayed with me.. Thank god my husband was on the roof and heard the screaming.. he came in and tried to get Rana to let go but she wouldn't.. he had to hit her over 12 times before he could break the hold on the females neck.. he then got her in another room..

I was covered in my own blood and shocky.. The left hand was mangled.. There was a few deep puncture wounds and it looked so horrible.. We put Rana in a crate and she was fine.. The first female had puncture wounds and was bleeding but not as serious as before.. the second female and male were fine.. Truth be told, i got the worst of it.. the other hand also had a couple of puncture wounds and bruising but the left hand was bad.. I was so afraid to go to the hospital in fear that Animal Contol would show up and take her , quarantine her then put her down.. I wanted to at least have control over what we did .. so I did not go to the hospital.. I called our vet and asked advice as to what could of happened and what to do and the suggestion was to put her down.. 

At the time, I knew that it was the best for her.. I cannot be responsible for her biting someone else or attacking another dog.. She has never left my home since we got her.. If we tried to remove her, she would panic as if she thought she was not coming back.. She would foam at the mouth and it was too much for her to go through..The thought of her leaving her to try to adjust to a new home scared me thinking that she could become more aggressive with different surroundings.. 

Rana was the most gentle dog for seven years.. she was the one that everyone loved and never feared.. I am now nervous of her and am so confused.. I would think that it was my fault for jumping in between them but she had a idea of who she was biting when she looked into my eyes and bit harder.. The vet told me that because I did not go to the hospital, I could bring her in and either leave her there to be euthanized or stay there and be with her then bring her home.. It broke my heart.. I really did believe that I was doing the right thing.. 

Then the vet called back and told me that because I told them that she had bitten me, I had to quarantine her myself for 10 days then bring her in to be euthanized. It is breaking my heart.. It is not fair.. I am not sure what to do.. I know that if she was let loose again, she would instigate again. she did okay the last time for maybe a day then started again and then this happened less than a month later.. 

I know that I nor my husband could stop another attack like that.. I thank god that my daughter was not here and this happened.. My husband says to give her another try but I cannot.. I love Rana and it breaks my heart.. I wanted her to grow old with me and let me take care of her. 

I noticed the last while, she was getting worse and i ignored it.. I feel responsible and have been trying hard to figure out what I did wrong and what I could of done to stop it.. So at this point, we have 6 days to go before we can put her to sleep and they want me to keep her crated. she is in another room and is howling periodically.. this is so unfair to all of us.. I know it is hurting her to be left alone by her family.. It is hurting me.. I do not want to just drop her off and leave her.. she gave me years of unconditional love and I owe it to her to do what is right for her but I am not sure what that is... 

I know if I did take her to the vets that I would not leave her there but be with her and take her home where she belongs.. I do not hate her for what happened..I know somehow, someway, I am responsible.. I know that she cannot be in the house with the other dogs whether I am here or not.. so what kind of life is it for her to be separate from the family.. 

Please give advice and let me know what you would do?? I am desperate.. Most friends and family have told me to put her down.. I don't know.. What do I do??Thank you for reading this..


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

She probably just redirected her aggression onto you. It's nothing personal, you were just THERE. It's like two men in a bar brawl- tap one of them on the shoulder just to ask "where's the bathroom," you'll get slugged too. Don't hold it against her, you just got in the way.

Now, bitches are notorious for suddenly deciding they don't like another bitch and then taking it to the point of wanting the other one dead. "Males fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for BREATHING rights." The order of the day is separation of Rana from all the other females in your household. If you do separate, be aware that you have to make the effort to spend every bit as much time with her as if she were still with the pack. Driving around with just her, some training, walks alone, it's a lot to do. You'll probably have to play "crate shuffle" but it's doable. I don't think she would be a good candidate for rehoming due to her age on top of this incident, but I'm sure she could be. *ETA: To the RIGHT home, which could be tough to find, and remember any liability may still filter down to you.* 

The final alternative, as you said, would be to stop to share a cheeseburger and ice cream cone, and be with her as she moves on. But I would definitely try the separation. People who do separation can better advise you on how they make things work. Best of luck, I know this can be scary. In the future, to separate a dog fight, grab the rear legs of one dog and drag it into a safe area like a different fenced yard or a different room, then shut the door. This is easier with two people, of course, but it's quite effective.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm sorry your going thru this.

The way I see it, you have to many female dynamics going on in the household. They don't call them "bitches" for nothing.

I would have kept Rana separated from the other females after coming home to find a house full of blood. Some female dogs just cannot be left together EVER.

There are, I'm sure many on this board that do have multiple females with no problems, and then I'm sure there are many that have multiple females that hate each other. It depends on the dogs.

Would I have her euthanized? It's not for me to say, I know I wouldn't rehome her. IF this happened in my household, (and I do have two males and two females with no problems), I most likely would work out keeping them separated at all times. But that is based on MY dogs not yours. 

I think adding that 4th dog, since you were having no problems up to that point, is where the trouble started. (and I'm not saying that 4th dog starts anything, just her presence alone has upset the peaceful balance from what you post). Whether you can regain that peaceful balance if the 4th dog was removed,,I honestly could not say. 

Tho mauling you so severely, (from the way it sounds) is totally not acceptable, I can see it happening, getting in the middle of a dog fight(which I probably would have done myself even tho its highly unadvisable), dogs are charged up, and she was probably so "zoned out",,it didn't matter WHO was interfering, they were going to feel her wrath to. 

It's a tough decision to deal with I'm sure. 
Good luck and hope it all works out
Diane


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh wow-this is not an easy situation. 

You have the option of putting her down or not? It's not required? Just checking on that. 

I think I would check out the aggression links at the top of this forum (hope the sticky is there) or at least look at this one: http://www.k9aggression.com (I think that's it). It lists causes of aggression. 

Given her age, it is possible that she is having a thyroid issue. I am not sure if Guelph has a behavior clinic, or if you are comfortable bringing her to one (sounds like she has some big anxiety things). I know Cornell has one and that is about 3 hours from Buffalo. 

I think that I would have a good thyroid panel done (Dr. Dodds or Michigan State) and hope for the best. If it came back that she was okay...then I would have to look at her quality of life, if medicines like amyltriptiline would help (human Elavil), or if she was just deteriorating to the point of no return. And I have had to put down a foster dog who was like that-just too much of a risk to adopt out. It broke my heart, so I can imagine if it's your own dog. Very difficult. 

If it is her thryroid, the meds are easy (and cheap!) and then you can do a rotation with the other girls until she gets under control. NILIF would be the best thing you can start anyway-if you aren't already doing it-for all the dogs because it relaxes them. 

It's hard when it's females and it is a fear of mine as well. Do you know what her other half is-half GSD/half...?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Has Rana had a complete Vet check up recently. There are medical issues that can cause aggression.

Putting blame someplace at this point is usless. What you need to do is to decide IF you want to work to keep Rana in your family.

Bitches are bitches. I have two that can not be together. Cheyenne is Alpha and DeeDee has some issues from Vaccination reaction where she stares (kina like border collies). Cheyenne see's it as a challenge, I correct Chey, DeeDee gets upset because she things it is all her fault and tries to make up to Chey and it pisses Chey off and she correct again. It is a cycle That I can't break because of DeeDee's issues. SO I keep them apart. Yea everyone in a while something happens, but one is usually in a crate or behind a gate so I have a barrier to help me.

Is it work, YES. Would I give up either one of these females, NOPE. Would I get between them if they were loose and a fight broke out, Nope. There are only a few ways to break up a bitch fight and getting in between them it's one of them. If you are along you grab the aggressors back legs and raise them up and pull back. Hopefully they will get tired and release the other female. The you get the aggressor in a crate or room with a door until she settles down enough to listen to you.

But bottom line is you have to decide.

Dogs will survive being separtated from the pack. Dogs live in the moment and accept things that are changed.

Val


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

when you choose to support a 'damaged/high drive/needy' rescue. Not saying your dog is any of above'('only you know)sometimes it MAY take a one on one relationship and maybe somewhere else or rehome and NOT trying fitting that dog in a multi-dog home


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## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

Thank you for your advice.. Right now, Rana is being separated for her safety as well as the others. It is a very difficult situation.. Tonight, I let her loose in another room with a door with a window in it separating her from the other dogs.. She immediately went to the door and the hackles went up and the other dogs were on the other side of the door and the one female that she did not attack started to growl at her. the others were on full alert.. Rana has always been an important part of my family and never had to be separated from any of our others.. she was the gentle one that went along with everything.. She was always quiet and loved to play with all of them. This has started less than two months ago with the aggression. All of our dogs are inside dogs.. Rana slept on our bed everynight with the rest and there was never any real sign of her not liking any of the others. With our last addition, there was no problem for over a year with any of them. Right now, the only people that know about me getting bitten is the vet and my family and friends . . I am not holding what happened against Rana.. I am just confused as to why now?? What has changed to make her suddenly become aggressive? I am going to call the vet to see what test can be done to see if it is medical. At least if it is medical I can keep her and treat her with medication??


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:This has started less than two months ago with the aggression.


Vet visit time! Jean suggested checking the thyroid, I totally agree. Also joint problems and spine issues and anything. Rana may have a health problem causing her to feel miserable.



> Quote: At least if it is medical I can keep her and treat her with medication??


Depends on what it is! Rule of thumb: treat the condition, NOT the symptom.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am so sorry. This must be heart wrenching for you and for your family. The suddenness and severity of onset really makes me think it's medical (thyroid) or neurological. 

Even if it is medical and you can identify the problem and get it under control it likely that you may never be able to integrate her into your pack again.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I had three males that were not safe in the home together and kept them separated at all times. The older male died in February at the age of 12.5 and I had him for 5 years. I never had a fight with him. It can be done and it is not as bad as it appears. They had their rooms and separate playtime. I frequently had to separate rescue fosters, it is work, but I worked out a system that works well for me.

I just got myself bitten a month ago: foster who was initially good with other dogs and then got into it with one of mine. I knew the danger and still separated them, got myself bitten in the process (it was not too bad, several puncture wounds and big bruieses, did not see a doctor for it for the same reason). The fact is that they have no idea whom they are biting when they are in the biting state. The general rule is not to put body parts near the biting end, but it is not always feasible. With my males I had to pry their mouth open to loosen the grip as they would not let go.

Anyway, I would not allow her together with the other dogs, ever. It is not easy to separate, but it is not that bad either.

I am sorry you are going through this. Nobody can make the decision for you but your dedication and love to your dog is to be admired.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Medical causes of aggression thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=554900&page=1#Post554900

Guelph:
http://www.ovc.uoguelph.ca/hospital/

Cornell Animal Behavioral Clinic:
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/ABC/

Tufts Animal Behavioral Clinic:
http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/

That includes Petfax: http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/petfax.shtml


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## Halen (Feb 16, 2007)

I am so sorry you are going through this. I don't have any advice for you, but I just wanted you to know that I sympathize. It is a heartbreaking decision you must make.

If there is ever another fight, grab the dog's rear legs and pull them back. They lose their balance. I have done this before & it works. (Handy tip from Leerburg site.) And it's a lot better than getting bit.

Good luck & keep us posted.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

reik mom-My thoughts are with you.unfortunately from a human ethical emotional standpoint we all seem to want to support the 'good' guy.In a household of more than one dog what is fair-emotionally in our human minds and right in our love for a 'good dog' CAN/IS NOT what happens in the world of dog RULES(and despite best effort of owner -compassionate trainer-giving your best try)sometimes that otherworld of DOG RULES wins.do NOT beat yourself up -separate dogs -do not feel pressure to decide today!Only thing I would say and may not be popular "follow your heart dog"if you can't decide.


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## Jazzyo (May 14, 2008)

I would strongly urge you to test this dog for Tick disease as well. Amongst many other symptoms shown in a dog that has tick disease, aggression is one of them. You can have your vet do the Snap 4DX test and get results right away. It is well worth the money and should be done regularly on all dogs that are around any ticks at all. Frontline and the like will kill the tick but the tick must first "bite" once and that one bite is all it takes to transmit the disease. I'm not saying your dog has this, but rule it out along with the Thyroid problem. 

This decision has got to be very difficult indeed. You mention you have a one year old female. It is possible that since she is now entering "maturity" that your girl is feeling threatened in the pack and the need to dominate and take charge. She is getting older and doesn't want to lose her rank. Sometimes dogs give each other subtle signals that we humans miss altogether. 

If there is anyway you can make a separate area for her to stay there, that would be great, but ONLY if all of you can be safe and you work out a daily system to create balance and individual attention for all. Since she was there first, I would have difficulty even thinking of rehoming her to anyone else, not to mention the liability involved in doing so. Try not to show any nervousness around her. Focus on "today" and not what happened yesterday or the day before. Be a confident pack leader at all times. Daily exercise is a must for this dog, all of them actually. 

I wish you the best. It is so obvious from your post how much you truly love these dogs. Sometimes things happen that even with your best intentions and effort, you cannot change. I hope you can work something out but if you cannot, try and find peace in that you have done much more for her than many others would have. You will make the right decision when the time comes. The ten days is giving you time to get past the upset and think clearly about what options you have. Good luck.


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## momtoduke (Sep 29, 2008)

My thoughts are with you in this difficult discission! I know and understand how hard it is to have to put a dog down







and i must say it sucks!! Although he had cancer and had to be done, it killed a part of me and my husband. We had him since the day he was born and he was 12 when we had to let him go to sleep.

Now I still have my 12 year old pom and our newest member for 8 months is our 1 year old german shepherd Duke! A month or so ago he started acting like he was on some kind of drug, and that really bothered me having 2 very small children, so with some advice on here i put him back in the house and started doing tons more with him, and for the last week he has been wonderful, i know how scarred i was of him acting like that, so i could imagine what your going through!

These are just some things that I would try, if it were me. First I will agree with some of them on here, I would try and keep her seperated, and most of all have her tested, it could just be some little medical problem that can be fixed very easily, but without trying you will never know. The I would give her just as much as attention as I did the others. It really has amazed me in the change of Duke in just one week having the extra attention!!

I think what has happend, is that she is getting older, and she feels she has or is loosing the alpha name! You said she was the first in the house and maybe she feels like shes not getting the attention that she use to get (even thought im sure she is) when it was just her. I personally think they never forget anything!! 

I hope you make the right decision and give her a little chance just to see whats going on! As long as everyone is safe and you can manage her I think it will all be ok!! I hope it will anyway!!

Best of Luck and please let us know what you decide!!


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## fourdogsrule (May 10, 2007)

I am so sorry you are going through this, but I know all about it.
I have 3 females that have gotten into 2 seperate fights and had to be broken up. The first one, I was home alone with my 2 kids and I had to break the fight up myself, which I did by picking up one of the dogs back legs and pulling and spinning then hooked her to my deck stairs and then grabbed the other one by the back legs and put her in the house.
The second fight, my husband was home and he helped me. 
So anyway, they are all seperated and have there own time outside with me and seperate inside time with me. I don't believe they will ever be able to be together again (unless leashed), but they are part of my family, so I will do what I have to do to keep them and my family safe. This is just my opinion and what I have chosen to do.
I to have been bitten breaking up a fight and that is the last time I will ever get between 2 dogs. The legs are where I focus on from now on, but don't plan on breaking any more fights up. 
Hang in there, you will make the right decission (sp?) for what is good for your dogs and family.
Keep us posted on how you are healing and what you decide.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

The only thing I have to add is that crating each dog allows all still to be safe but also part of the pack. This does involve extra work as each needs their attention and excercise but does also allow safe interaction. Maybe only Rana needs to be crated in the area where all congregate but she also needs her attention and excercise just that will be apart from the other dogs. 

What I have suggested does rely on a positive health check result. Please do keep us posted. All the best.


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## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

Thank you all so much.. I have an appointment for Rana on Friday for tests.. She is being crated from the rest and it is so difficult.. she will cry and howl and it breaks my heart.. I have been spending time with her and definitely do not hold her biting me against her..It was something that happened at the time.. The other dogs are fine and relaxed until they see her... then they go on alert.. she has been outcasted it seems and it is not fair.. As the days have gone by, I am trying to do what it takes to figure all this out.. What is best for her... not anyone else but her.. my husband and daughter are not even trying to help with a decision.. so either way, I will be the one to make a final decision and it is breaking me apart.. I really don't think I have any tears left..I have loved Rana from the first moment I saw her tied outside in the snow holding one paw at a time from the cold. Even when we brought her home and she was petrified and would pee on the floor when anyone went near her and would lower her head in fear, I did not give up on her.. It was heaven to show her what unconditional love was like to one that never experienced it before.. I taught her that a cookie is a good thing, that getting kisses and hugs were great, that she could play freely, she could be vocal and not be in trouble, that the furniture was there for her as much as myself.. that she was a good girl that deserved attention..I do not work so my home and what resides in it is my life.. In return, when Reiker passed, we mourned together.. all tears and hugs... she was there for me when i needed her the most.. she taught me that it was okay to continue to love when your heart is broken and you feel like you just wanted the world to stop to give you time to breathe. She made me continue on by the grumbles and the demand for attention by her tilted head and her ears up and the look on her face that would bring a smile to mine when I thought I could never smile again...Eight years of my life has been given so much joy by her.. I am stuck now in a decision of what quality of life can i give her like this and if I do have her put to sleep, I will be murdering my little girl that has given me so much and in turn I take the one thing from her that I have promised to protect since the day that I brought her home.. She has been separated since this happened.. but with the crying and howling when she hears me or sees me is heartbreaking in itself.. I let her out but she is still acting funny around me.. she will try to get on my lap and nips at my face.. I am not sure if she is excited or what but i remain calm and try to calm her down.. When I have to crate her again, she will try to get out to follow me and start to whine and cry.. every time I do that it ends up in tears for me when i leave the room.. I guess i thought that I would be able to handle anything when it came to having more than one but this is something that I never expected and really should of.. It has been so good for over a year now and I thought that life was good.. I have Bismarck that is three and a half, Kayla that is three , Brya that is two and a half and then Rana that we think has to be older than eight.. when we got her , she was not a puppy but we were told that where we got her did not know how old she was and that she was a purebred GSD but we knew different.. we just wanted to get her out of that situation..It didn't matter how old or whether she was purebred or not.. she just needed us.. that was all that i needed to bring her home.. I am going to continue to keep her crated and spend time with her while i wait until Friday and see what the vet says.. I have to try everything before a last result that i don't want to deal with.. Thank you for all the understanding and kindness.. It is nice to feel like you are not alone when it seems like you wait while holding your breath .. I am praying really hard that this is medical and that she will be fine and things will work out.. I will keep you posted..


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I would suggest that you take time with any decision you make. You do have quite a few options.

1. Using a muzzle (the danger is that she could remove it)
2. You don't really have to crate her all the time. You can have her in a different room, away from the other dogs. The other dogs should not have access to the door (baby gate) to avoid possible door arguments and scratching.
4. You can set up a kennel for her which would give her more space than the crate.

I understand that she is crying and this is upsetting you. It will take her some time to adjust to such a radical change in her schedule. It may take a couple of weeks, but she will adjust. Dogs get rehomed and they do adjust to the new home, some do it faster others slower.

You should not be making any decisions while you are in such an emotional state (unless she becomes agressive with you, for example). Give both the dog and yourself enough time to adjust to the new situation. It may take some time to figure out the best solution, but many of us were successful at it. It is not hopeless.


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## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

I really feel for you. I have a similar situation with my two males (see thread below about dog agression in multi dog household). Anyway - the boys are seperated most of the time, but for a few hours each day I will put a muzzle on the agressive dog so he can be outside with the pack. This has worked really well so far. I have to always be there to supervise so that he doesn't get the muzzle off/or caught. And I have to be careful that my currently non-agressive dog doesn't somehow try to get the upper hand. They have those really nice cage type muzzles at Leerburg - my dog can even drink with his on. You can read my thread for what else I've done, but one thing has really helped....More EXERICSE!!!
Good luck, and know that you are not alone with this.


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## momtoduke (Sep 29, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Reik's momThank you all so much.. I have an appointment for Rana on Friday for tests.. She is being crated from the rest and it is so difficult.. she will cry and howl and it breaks my heart.. I have been spending time with her and definitely do not hold her biting me against her..It was something that happened at the time.. The other dogs are fine and relaxed until they see her... then they go on alert.. she has been outcasted it seems and it is not fair.. As the days have gone by, I am trying to do what it takes to figure all this out.. What is best for her... not anyone else but her.. my husband and daughter are not even trying to help with a decision.. so either way, I will be the one to make a final decision and it is breaking me apart.. I really don't think I have any tears left..I have loved Rana from the first moment I saw her tied outside in the snow holding one paw at a time from the cold. Even when we brought her home and she was petrified and would pee on the floor when anyone went near her and would lower her head in fear, I did not give up on her.. It was heaven to show her what unconditional love was like to one that never experienced it before.. I taught her that a cookie is a good thing, that getting kisses and hugs were great, that she could play freely, she could be vocal and not be in trouble, that the furniture was there for her as much as myself.. that she was a good girl that deserved attention..I do not work so my home and what resides in it is my life.. In return, when Reiker passed, we mourned together.. all tears and hugs... she was there for me when i needed her the most.. she taught me that it was okay to continue to love when your heart is broken and you feel like you just wanted the world to stop to give you time to breathe. She made me continue on by the grumbles and the demand for attention by her tilted head and her ears up and the look on her face that would bring a smile to mine when I thought I could never smile again...Eight years of my life has been given so much joy by her.. I am stuck now in a decision of what quality of life can i give her like this and if I do have her put to sleep, I will be murdering my little girl that has given me so much and in turn I take the one thing from her that I have promised to protect since the day that I brought her home.. She has been separated since this happened.. but with the crying and howling when she hears me or sees me is heartbreaking in itself.. I let her out but she is still acting funny around me.. she will try to get on my lap and nips at my face.. I am not sure if she is excited or what but i remain calm and try to calm her down.. When I have to crate her again, she will try to get out to follow me and start to whine and cry.. every time I do that it ends up in tears for me when i leave the room.. I guess i thought that I would be able to handle anything when it came to having more than one but this is something that I never expected and really should of.. It has been so good for over a year now and I thought that life was good.. I have Bismarck that is three and a half, Kayla that is three , Brya that is two and a half and then Rana that we think has to be older than eight.. when we got her , she was not a puppy but we were told that where we got her did not know how old she was and that she was a purebred GSD but we knew different.. we just wanted to get her out of that situation..It didn't matter how old or whether she was purebred or not.. she just needed us.. that was all that i needed to bring her home.. I am going to continue to keep her crated and spend time with her while i wait until Friday and see what the vet says.. I have to try everything before a last result that i don't want to deal with.. Thank you for all the understanding and kindness.. It is nice to feel like you are not alone when it seems like you wait while holding your breath .. I am praying really hard that this is medical and that she will be fine and things will work out.. I will keep you posted..


i am so sorry and dont want to make myself sound hateful or anything, but just reading this post made me swell with tears and there is no way that i could ever put a baby down, that i have taught all of this to. i know and understand your situation but i just could never do it!

you two alone have had a life time together it seems like! i just hope it all works out for her and you for the best!

GOOD LUCK, and please let us know!


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## gretasgifttome (Jul 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger Bitches are bitches.
> Would I get between them if they were loose and a fight broke out, Nope. There are only a few ways to break up a bitch fight and getting in between them it's one of them. If you are along you grab the aggressors back legs and raise them up and pull back. Hopefully they will get tired and release the other female. The you get the aggressor in a crate or room with a door until she settles down enough to listen to you.
> 
> 
> Val


Because I read this thread the other day, I knew what to do when two of my bitches went at it today. It doesn't usually happen here but Greta was especially determined to get the frisbee away from Merci. And Greta is the alpha dog. I sensed Greta escalating and before I could get her inside, it broke out. Greta will not stop once she attacks but is older and smaller and would surely be the one injured. It popped in my mind to grab her back legs and pull her away from Merci and it worked!! Then I was able to grab her collar and get her in the house. Thank you! Just a little blood, nothing major. Greta is getting stiff already from getting shook by Merci, but it could have been worse.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

WOW Chris, I am sorry that the girls got into but, wow how weird that you just read this the other day and had to put it into practice today. Glad that you didn't get hurt in the process. LOL gotta love those bitches.

Val


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

When my two guys got into it (one retired police dog rescue and one Sch bitework trained), I tried the picking up the legs trick. Unfortunately, they had such a god grip on each other, that they would not let go (I tried for quite a while). Finally I had to pry the jaw of one of them open (and got bitten in the process). Any good tricks to loosen the grip? Maybe I should have tried the "aus'? I did not think of it.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

That can be a tough one, using commands only work if you can penatrate the haze they are in. You could try, how relable is the Aus normally. Maybe a pail of coldl water thrown on them to get their attention. How about NINE, my dogs all know when I use that I am serious.


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## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

To be honest, I wish I had of known that too.. I tried the commands but to no avail.. I was calm and assertive but Rana was in such a state that it was like she did not even hear me..Because this is something that started long into having another dog here, I never checked out what to do when aggression was shown to another member of the pack. It was my ignorance that made this situation go longer than it should and in the process, Kayla got hurt as well as myself. When starting to have more than one, I really should of looked at all angles no matter how far fetched they seemed at the time..Today, Rana goes to the vet.. she is still putting her hackles up and when I had her outside with me yesterday, she started to howl and whine and when she saw a neighbours dog , she tried to go for it.. I hope that everything will go good today and we can figure out what is going on.. It has to be medical.. She seems to be getting worse. I will keep you posted.


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## momtoduke (Sep 29, 2008)

just wanted to check in on the girl! have you found anything out yet?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDWhen my two guys got into it (one retired police dog rescue and one Sch bitework trained), I tried the picking up the legs trick. Unfortunately, they had such a god grip on each other, that they would not let go (I tried for quite a while). Finally I had to pry the jaw of one of them open (and got bitten in the process). Any good tricks to loosen the grip? Maybe I should have tried the "aus'? I did not think of it.


At a dog event at our house years ago an Akita launched itself at a Rottie and latched onto his neck. A VERY dog savy gentleman quickly walked up, reached under the Akita's lower jaw, put his fingers around the lower jaw and gripped hard.

Kinda hard to explain how he did it. Imagine grabbing hold our your dog's lower jaw, right where it hinges to the upper jaw and gripping it REALLY hard.

The Akita instantly opened it's jaws and the man was able to haul it off the Rottie.

The Rottie had been unreactive the entire time so the man only had the Akita to worry about.

I don't know if I would feel comfortable using that technique. If pulling the back legs didn't work I think I'd next try a hard pinch inside the upper back leg - close to the male privates!

YEEEEEE-OUCH!!


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## fourdogsrule (May 10, 2007)

Christi,
I just wanted to let you and anyone else that doesn't know this. When you grab a dog by there back legs, ALWAYS remember to take one step back and THEN start TURNING in a circle. That gets them off balance and off there feet, then you can get a hold of there collar.
If you don't start turning after one step back, then they most likely will spin there head around and attack you. They don't know that it is you pulling them back.
Just wanted to share that with everyone. It is a very important.

Reik's mom, please keep us posted.


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## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

After every day was spent thinking it over and over and what can be done and what is best and looking at the whole situation from the behaviour changing to the extreme, to quality of life, to every detail, and after discussing this with the vet, the decision was made to have Rana put to sleep. This was not for me or my family "the easy way out".. We all noticed that Rana had changed over the last while and that she was becoming a member of our family that we did not recognize. It was hard to admit but after talking it over and over again, we all realized that something was definitely wrong with her mentally and that she had become a risk that we were not willing to take, to prolong the inevitable. I have and loved her since the day we brought her home and the decision was not one that was by any means easy. It was the hardest thing that I have ever had to do. I knew her better than anyone and when i admitted to myself that even I was becoming nervous to be around her before I even got in between the fight that she was in, I realized that I have been ignoring the signs that something was wrong for my own selfish reasons. i thought that with extra love and attention, that she would be fine and she would go back to being the little girl that I have raised. The decision was made by a responsible dog owner.. Though a lot of you would not agree, I feel that I was doing what was right for her first, then us.. No one wants to decide when the time is right to have their loved one PTS.. It is something that we HAVE to deal with. My family and I are grieving and even though it seems like I should of, could of, would of, then end result is the same... I honestly feel that I did, what I thought, was the right thing to do. I know alot will not agree with me but I had to do what I felt i had to do. Separating her would of not been a problem since I am at home all the time, but with the change in the personality, I knew that I could not stand by and watch her get worse and chance the safety of my family. I am not looking to give excuses. I am posting this in truth. All the advice was either followed or considered and the final result was the same. I am not blaming anyone but myself. I lied beside her through the whole thing and then we brought our girl home. She is buried next to Reiker where I am sure that she is running freely and happy with him next to her. I have to believe that. I thank god that I at the very least was able to give her eight years of a good life as she gave me. It might not make sense to you but I did what i did out of my love for her.. Thank you for giving me advice and personal stories of experience. It was greatly appreciated.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Rest in peace, Rana.


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## momtoduke (Sep 29, 2008)

You truely done what you thought you had to do. It is very difficult to make that descision. I for one know first hand. Our dog Dusty had cancer and we had to make tht decision for him and it was not easy at all







I still miss him everyday!

Only you knew how Rana was from the beggining to the end, and you had to do what was right for the safety of your family. I personally would have been selfish im sure. But thats me! She is now ok in anything she is doing . Our thoughts are with you and your family and Rana! 

Best Wishes









Stacey


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

This is a terrible thing to have to go through but you had to make the right decision for you and your family. Take comfort in the fact that you provided love and care for her for 8 years. She wouldn't have had that if you wouldn't have stepped in and loved her. 

Rest in Peace, Pretty Girl...


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## mwmr (Apr 8, 2006)

I for one will applaud and commend you for having both the wisdom and the courage to make a responsible decision during a really tough time. Too many people have pets and don't have the sense or the responsibility to do what needs to be done in different situations. Now let's hope the serenity follows soon.

God Bless


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Wow. I am so sorry it came to that.









You seem very much like a dog saver. 
Not someone that would take this decision lightly. I know you did not. I am sure she had very wonderful years with you. 

My only issue is this started over another female being brought in the house, correct? Or maybe Rana did have mental issues going on. Either way please do not let the loss of Rana be in vain. 
Admit your hands are full and do not take in other dogs. 
Not telling you this to be mean.
It is a hard thing, I could not do better with an aggressive dog. Heaven forbid 7 yrs from now Shadow would turn on me. Just know what you are doing now for your dogs in your care now is what you can do. When we take on to much the whole house suffers. 
I question this every day, with the 3 dogs I have now. Did I take on to much? Can I do more? 

Please take this with the caring that was intended. And I hope your hand has healed.









And your heart heals soon.


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## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

We brought in our last female a year and a half ago and Rana had no problems with her or anyone else up until a couple of months ago.. they got along great.. they slept together, ate together, played together.. it seemed so perfect.. 

I will not be getting another.. i can't go through this over and over again.. The thought of having to possibly do this three more times is overwhelming.. I would not be able to get another with the thought that I would have to do it a fourth, fifth, etc.. I am content and feel blessed with who i have..

The good thing is that if ever there is a time when any of them get into a fight, i will know how to separate them without getting hurt. My hand will heal.. but my heart will always have a hole.. 

Thank you for all the responses...We are going to try to get through our Thanksgiving weekend.


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## Karin (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry, Erin. I hope that your memories of her when she was happier and doing better give you some comfort now. Rest in peace, Rana.


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## LandosMom (Nov 30, 2005)

from what i read it seems like you did the kindest thing for Rana. i hope you really believe that too. it seems like she was suffering- not physically but mentally... and that can be worse. please take care of yourself.


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## fourdogsrule (May 10, 2007)

Sweet Rana. You are now running free and enjoying your new life to the fullist.
Please take care and take one day at a time. It will get easier, but you will never forget the great times together.
You are in our thoughts and prayers.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RIP Rana, I hope your demons have left you and you are at peace. Hugs to you. Erin, This Thankgsiving I thank you for giving her 8 loving years. Maybe in time you can give another dog comfort and a loving safe place, something that few shelter dogs can find...


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I hold nothing against you. I think you made your decision out of the deepest love, and in that, it was Ok. I put my beloved first Shep Katja, down when she was 7. She had been diagnosed with Lupus, and we had been treating her crisis times fairly succesively for a year.

And then, overnight, she was different. She kenneled the night before as the Alpha bitch of my pack, and walked out the next morning as a scared, uncertain dog, who had no idea what to do. My 2 males were as befuddled as I was, since she was the one to tell them how to breath. The change was so drastic and complete that it took me a couple of days to realize that she would never be the same. I couldn't let my Alpha live out afraid.

Because Lupus caused her to have bleeding episodes, where her platelets were at life threatening levels, My very good friend and vet thinks that she perhaps had a brain bleed. In this time when you are feeling such a loss, know that what you did came from the heart. There are med cond. that are hard to find with regular testing.


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

You are an angel for what you did all those years with her. Rest in peace.

She will always be in your heart and your dreams. Bless you and her.


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## Reik's mom (Dec 9, 2002)

Thank you all .. Your advice and kind words are truly appreciated..


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