# Pup may have to go



## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

We've had our female pup since late March, and she still won't housebreak, nor will she stop "hunting" our cats. I'm at my wits' end with her. We've never had any difficulty house training any of our other dogs in the past, but this little girl insists on peeing in the house. I just let her in from outside and she peed in the kitchen. Earlier, she jumped up onto the forbidden couch and emptied her bladder. 
We've done clicker training and been consistent with her, but she seems oblivious to whether she earns rewards or not, no matter what the reward. 
I'm just not sure how much more I can take.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

luvdubs said:


> We've had our female pup since late March, and she still won't housebreak, nor will she stop "hunting" our cats. I'm at my wits' end with her. We've never had any difficulty house training any of our other dogs in the past, but this little girl insists on peeing in the house. I just let her in from outside and she peed in the kitchen. Earlier, she jumped up onto the forbidden couch and emptied her bladder.
> We've done clicker training and been consistent with her, but she seems oblivious to whether she earns rewards or not, no matter what the reward.
> I'm just not sure how much more I can take.


How old is she? What has your housbreaking method been? How are you keeping her separated from the cats?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Has she been checked by the vet for a UTI?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

One solution is to keep her leashed to you in the house.If she can't be closely supervised she should be crated or in a pen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

better to do it now rather than later for the puppy's well-being. Have you been in contact with her breeder? Do you utilize a crate?


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## dmom (Jul 2, 2009)

Luvdubs have you tried tethering her to you? Is she dirty in her crate? Does she go outside at all or hold it until she is back in the house? Sometimes they don't empty their bladders all the way when they first go so if she goes when first outside move her around a bit playing with you and see if she goes again.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Try crating her when your not able to watch her like a hawk, that worked for us really well. We crated him every second that we were not outside with him or actively playing with him. The problem with us was that he had gotten used to going inside and preferred it, which might be similar to how she is feeling too. 

We also found that for bad habits time outs in a ex pen or another secluded small room worked great because he hated being away from us. 

Also I've read a lot about how useful it is to keep the puppies on a leash at all times in the house while your there. That way if they are misbehaving (for example chasing cats) you can correct when it happens easily and reward the good behavior consistently. It would be a pain having a leash tied to your waist at all times... However not as horrible as forcing your puppy who loves you and has bonded with you for months to live in a new home with strangers...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree we need more informtion. The OP has had the puppy for two months, but how old was the puppy when the OP got her? Was she 4 weeks old? 18 months old? I think we would give very different advice between the one answer and the other.

Why is the dog peeing? If it is because the bladder is full, the answer is easy, take her out more often and praise liberally when she does her business in the right place. Clean all other spots with an enzyme based cleaner and supervise her whenever she is not in her safe spot.

But that isn't always the reason for the peeing. Urinary tract infection is a possibility and should be checked. Could also be excited or fearful urination -- I get this from being up in the "forbidden" couch. If you said "OFF!!!" when you saw her, her piddling could be a form of appeasing the angry superior -- puppy pee has an component/pharamone that will calm other dogs -- "Hey, man, just a pup, just a pup, easy ok, I'm no threat at all!" 

This excited or submissive urination will get worse if you over-react to it. While if you ignore it, the problem actually resolves itself. 

But yeah, need more information for sure.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

LOL I'm staying out of this.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

wick said:


> As for the plethora of information... I apologize, when I post a thread I hope and expect to get a plethora of information from members and then I respond with questions I have about the ideas or explain why it won't work for me. If that is not what everyone else is looking for I am sorry, I will try to be more aware of it.


I'm sorry too. It's just that sometimes, well - there's all types of people who post here. The immediate suggestions require tools that can cost several hundred dollars, the other with leash attachment requires lots of time that few outside of the "Monks of New Skeete" have time for to be effective.

If you can't afford a crate or Xpen - there are other ways that won't cost nearly as much but could serve the purpose. My biggest concern was with the cats. Between that and the peeing, what's going on there? A simple blocking off in any way to prevent these problems is absent - as far as we know.


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## dmom (Jul 2, 2009)

Luvdubs, hopefully you will find something in suggestions that were made, or questions asked that helps you get this girl housebroken. Make sure the cat has a safe place to getaway from pup/dog until you can get training in place that pup/dog ignores it. Some never do learn to coexist.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

C'mon folks. I know the moderators are probably asleep at this hour, but let's remember there is a dog whose owner has reached out to us for help. Let's not make this about ourselves, our likes and dislikes, and disputes with each other.

I think the tether the dog to you is while the person is home and the dog would otherwise be running around the living room, not 24/7 which would take someone retired or a monk. It is a method of house training and bonding with a dog, for people who otherwise might forget the puppy is loose and probably trying to get into trouble in one way or another.

Personally, I did not like the advice for time-outs for bad habits. Toileting is training an animal to put aside what is its nature and instinct to do and train it to do so on our schedule and where we want them to. I find punishment kind of unfair, but more importantly, I think it makes the process take longer rather than shorter most of the time.

To effectively potty train your dog, all you need is one newspaper: 

When your dog has made a potty mistake in the house,

Step 1, remove the dog to its safe spot.

Step 2, roll the newspaper up so that it looks like a club and is ready.

Step 3, wack yourself over the head with the newspaper several times repeating, "I should've watched my puppy!"

Step 4, thoroughly clean the mess with an appropriate cleaning agent.


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## lexiz (Apr 4, 2015)

I don't know if this will help, but I take my puppy out every fifteen minutes, and even more if she eats anything or gets a drink. It requires a lot of time with so many potty breaks, but we have never had an accident. Ever. Also, our girl knows the "go potty" command, and we are careful to never say "potty" inside. If you notice your dog squat, make a loud noise to distract her then get her outside ASAP. Good luck! You can do it!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> C'mon folks. I know the moderators are probably asleep at this hour, but let's remember there is a dog whose owner has reached out to us for help. Let's not make this about ourselves, our likes and dislikes, and disputes with each other.
> 
> I think the tether the dog to you is while the person is home and the dog would otherwise be running around the living room, not 24/7 which would take someone retired or a monk. It is a method of house training and bonding with a dog, for people who otherwise might forget the puppy is loose and probably trying to get into trouble in one way or another.
> 
> ...


Yes indeed. 

Crating is a tool that can assist with house breaking. 

Tethering as well, it can become exhausting watching puppy 24/7 without having a place for both puppy and owner to relax.


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

OP - I know this phase can be frustrating, and it might seem that your pup will never get it. 

I really hope that some of the helpful posts and suggestions made thus far are helpful to you. If you haven't already returned the pup, please take the time to mentally and physically regroup, and make a fresh start as if your pup was just 8 weeks old and in your home for the first time  If you provide more details of your situation, you may get some more tailored advice. Best of luck to you!


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

selzer said:


> C'mon folks. I know the moderators are probably asleep at this hour, but let's remember there is a dog whose owner has reached out to us for help. Let's not make this about ourselves, our likes and dislikes, and disputes with each other.
> 
> I think the tether the dog to you is while the person is home and the dog would otherwise be running around the living room, not 24/7 which would take someone retired or a monk. It is a method of house training and bonding with a dog, for people who otherwise might forget the puppy is loose and probably trying to get into trouble in one way or another.
> 
> ...


Hi the time outs were for the cat issue sorry if that wasn't clear, not for reprimanding incidents regarding potty. 

I did however suggest that the pup should be crated when she cannot be supervised, which is in fact a valid suggestion given it's one of the most common reasons we use crates.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

selzer said:


> C'mon folks. I know the moderators are probably asleep at this hour, but let's remember there is a dog whose owner has reached out to us for help. Let's not make this about ourselves, our likes and dislikes, and disputes with each other.
> 
> I think the tether the dog to you is while the person is home and the dog would otherwise be running around the living room, not 24/7 which would take someone retired or a monk. It is a method of house training and bonding with a dog, for people who otherwise might forget the puppy is loose and probably trying to get into trouble in one way or another.
> 
> ...


Oh and I love your training technique! In fact I thought that was the technique I was trying to encourage through tethering or crating when the puppy cannot be watched. I clearly need to work on rewording my posts!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

1...people grow up.....half the thread is 2 people bickering like grade schoolers.

To OP - The cat obsession is more of a concern than the house breaking. Crate - outside - when they potty - freedom....if they don't crate again.....I have a six month old who was hard to housebreak....took a while....but now she won't go UNLESS someone is with her! As long as I go out onto the porch, she will go...and she goes to teh door now...but it took months of diligence for that....So still working on it

The cat obession is very very difficult......is this a working line puppy with prey drive? Are the cats afraid and running or will they face down the puppy? I have a 3 month old who I will probably sell because she is obsessed with cats. My cats are NOT afraid of dogs, sleep with Csabre all the time - on teh couch, in the crate, on a bed....but this pup is just plain obsessed and this is instinct - and not easy for an experienced person to train away....

if you got the pup from a reputable breeder - I would suggest opening a dialog with them regarding the future of this pup....the housebreaking is fixable, the cat obsession may not be.

Lee


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

MODERATOR HAT ON:

Enough! Stop the back and forth bickering! If you cannot contribute directly to the OP then cease posting on this thread entirely. Failure to do so may result in official warnings to those who continue with the childish behavior seen in this thread.


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

Yikes! I posted right before going to bed last night and I feel as if I sparked a conversation that caused quite a bit of dissent. Had I stayed awake and online I could have answered questions right away....
Background:
Heidi was born on January 27, and was 9 weeks when she joined our family.
She comes from a reputable breeder(non-working lines), and is actually a foster in our home until she has her 4th litter, when she will be spayed and become ours for good.
She had a persistent bite issue, but has gotten much better.
She has not had a poop accident in the house in 5 weeks, just pee. 
She no longer hunches when she pees, she just stands there and lets it flow.
She's going to be HUGE! Giant paws, ears, and a tail so long that it unbalances her when she runs.

Training:
We use a clicker to re-enforce positive behaviors, clicking and rewarding when she does something desirable. As of right now, we're only using the clicker for "come" and "go potty", using a variety of reward treats.

I've generally tried to keep her outside until she pees twice, and most of the time she can come back inside and do just fine. Then she'll have set-backs that make me want to tear out what little hair I have left.

She was crated overnight for the first few weeks, and now overnights in our gated-off laundry room. She has never had an accident in her kennel or in the laundry room at night. 

The Cats:
Our cats have several high perches where they can escape, as well as several rooms that we keep separate with baby gates in the hallway.
The cats have claws, so when she gets too close they make her pay, but she doesn't seem to care. She hasn't bitten yet, just poked with her muzzle and smacked with paws. She hunts relentlessly when they are on the floor and won't be distracted by anything less than physical restraint. 

My frustration is starting to color the way I'm feeling about this pup. I know that you can't judge it that way, but none of our other dogs have had this much trouble training. Yep, I'm very much aware that GSD's are unique and that my other dogs were mutts, but my skills are being tried sorely. My wife and kids love her dearly, and I'm really trying...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Luvdub, don't feel bad about not posting answers right away. The board is prone to devolving into personal issues at the drop of a hat. 

Thanks for providing more answers. 

I would go the tether route right now. Freedom in the house means that she can be too far away to correct when she potties. A tether keeps her close so you can interrupt her if she starts to go. 

I would also make sure outside time is structured. Puppies get very distracted. So I would always separate out play and potty times. 

When she is playing in the house, stop her and take her outside. Play often makes pups have to potty. So it's always a good idea to interupt it to get her outside. 

PARTY!!! When she piddles outside. Don't just click and treat. Make a big deal out of it!!!! 

Good Luck!!!


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I would have her checked for a UTI first. They seem to be pretty common in young pups and could explain the "just stands and pees" phenomenon and the frequency.
I would go back to the crate. You say she has never had an accident there so start over with the crate. Others have given you the plan. I think the routine is more important than the clicker right now. 
Given the breed, she did not have a "persistent bite issue". She is a puppy and GSD puppies love to bite. It was/is normal. Yes needs redirecting but it is totally normal training not and issue per se.
Do I have this right? She is going to be bred 4 times? Why? Does she have phenomenal qualities? Will you be titling her? Seems odd that the reputable breeder will make that decision right now given how young this pup is. No evidence that she will promote the health and soundness of the breed yet.
Well, sigh, first step is check for a UTI.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If you are that frustrated by the pup, and I can guarantee you the cat situation will not get better by itself or even with physical deterrent, it will escalate....I have had cats and GSDs together for a long time....I have sold several dogs because of cat obsession...I have had a few that just could not be in the house with cats, a few that could be managed but the cats were never safe and the others were cat neutral, friendly or tolerant...I got one dog who I was told would chase cats (returned because of a new baby), but he was fine with dog savvy cats who just marched up to him and did not run...they would sleep with him just like they did with his mother.

My advice would be to rethink the situation totally -the housebreaking will come...the peeing could just be excitement but the cat situation may not be fixable... the pup should be returned and you should just buy a pup who is not cat obsessed...

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sorry OP about the maturity level of some of the posters. I've deleted a bunch of off-topic personal bickering. 

Thank you everyone that actually helped with actual suggestions!


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

DutchKarin said:


> I would have her checked for a UTI first. They seem to be pretty common in young pups and could explain the "just stands and pees" phenomenon and the frequency.
> I would go back to the crate. You say she has never had an accident there so start over with the crate. Others have given you the plan. I think the routine is more important than the clicker right now.
> Given the breed, she did not have a "persistent bite issue". She is a puppy and GSD puppies love to bite. It was/is normal. Yes needs redirecting but it is totally normal training not and issue per se.
> Do I have this right? She is going to be bred 4 times? Why? Does she have phenomenal qualities? Will you be titling her? Seems odd that the reputable breeder will make that decision right now given how young this pup is. No evidence that she will promote the health and soundness of the breed yet.
> Well, sigh, first step is check for a UTI.


Sorry, Karin. My post made it seem as if breeding was inevitable. The breeder said, iir, that she will start evaluating Heidi at 18 months for a number of factors with which I'm not familiar, as I've never had a "pure bred" dog before. That statement showed my ignorance and inexperience.


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

After gratefully reading the comments of experienced GSD owners, I'm coming up with:
A. don't sweat the potty issue, it will come, but do have her checked for UTI, which we will do asap
B. the issue with the cats may turn out tragically for the cats, and will be very difficult to work through.

My wife loves the pup, but she LOVES her cats. Is there a way that we can try to start working to curb her intense feline fatal attraction?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

luvdubs said:


> After gratefully reading the comments of experienced GSD owners, I'm coming up with:
> A. don't sweat the potty issue, it will come, but do have her checked for UTI, which we will do asap
> B. the issue with the cats may turn out tragically for the cats, and will be very difficult to work through.
> 
> My wife loves the pup, but she LOVES her cats. Is there a way that we can try to start working to curb her intense feline fatal attraction?


Work on strong leave its and focus. Sometimes you always have to supervise when there and be able to separate them when your not there to supervise.


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

How would the tether thing have to last? Lord, to be tethered to a puppy! Days? Weeks?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I sounds like you've made very good attempts to correct the cat situation. I agree with the other posters that there are just some dogs that cannot curb their instincts where cats are concerned.

I may have missed the answer on how your cats are reacting to the harassment. IMHO how the cats react is as important as what the pup is doing. A ball isn't much fun for a dog unless it's thrown, a flirt pole not so much either unless it's moving. Same with the cats. If they don't run and hold their ground with a few good swats....

My previous GSD tried to do stupid with my cats when he was a puppy. The cats did not back down. They did not give up their space but instead delivered many swats to the puppies nose. Eventually he "got" that there was no fun to be had there, but man, it went on for a long time. Smoke just stood there and took it like "that didn't hurt" (sounded like velcro ripping) but he finally gave up and they lived in harmony for 14 years. 

The GSD I have now - no way would she ever be trustworthy around anything small and furry that runs away. A fly in the house has a very short life span with her around.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

luvdubs said:


> How would the tether thing have to last? Lord, to be tethered to a puppy! Days? Weeks?


My best friend had a pit puppy that was in to _everything_. She hooked a couple of leashes together and attached Tallulah to her waist. Wherever my friend went in the house, Tallulah had to go with her. If she needed to do something without the puppy, she crated her. Consequently, her puppy didn't have a chance to tear anything up or pee in the house, and those two had a huge bond. Tallulah died this year at the age of 12. Best dog ever. 

I really don't remember how long she had to tether the puppy to her though.


I have 2 cats and I've had to keep them separate from the dogs, unless I am there to supervise one on one. My cats won't hiss or slap, they just run.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Luv, at one point or another, we have all been where you are! You have been given good advise, listen... I think the 'pee party' would work.. We used to party, my neighbours thought I had lost it (they didn't know I had a pup, they only knew I had lost my dog) now we are at the 'thumbs up, good boy stage'. As for the cats, I divided my house in two, then gradually less and less, and now there is only a cat door to the basement. I wish you luck, and patience! In time, you will be rewarded ten fold!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I look at potty training a little bit differently. I don't try to reward the specific act of peeing. I concentrate more on the whole picture of going outside to do it. I don't like a tether, I never do that. I have a light weight drag line on them and I use a crate. 

I'm really proactive about it. I don't wait and try and time it when they have to go, I take them out on a leash every 45mins or so and tell them to go. No party or rewards, its just a pattern and I don't want a whole lot of excitement. I'm not saying the other methods aren't just as good, but I like creating an obedience around it. If you can be consistent about it, it goes pretty quick. It comes in handy for traveling, they empty out when you want them to.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> I'm really proactive about it. I don't wait and try and time it when they have to go, I take them out on a leash every 45mins or so and tell them to go.



This is what I have done with all my GSDs. Outside literally every 30-45 minutes. Mine never got the chance to have an accident, and were super easy to housebreak. I wish I had known about doing it this way, when I had dogs when I was younger.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with the others about checking for a UTI, not giving her as much freedom in the house (tethering is perfect for that), and taking her out frequently. If she doesn't pee, back in the house and crated for a bit, as Lee suggested. Then try again a bit later. Once she goes, a big party and some yummy treats. 

It also helps if you always take her out the same door, (which you may already be doing) and put a cue to it. For us, "outside" meant the door would open, and then "go potty" or "hurry up" are the cues to do her business. It's taken us anywhere from 1-3 months to housebreak a new puppy, and you're at 2 months so far. It can be very frustrating, but the more accidents you can prevent with diligent management the faster she'll catch on. Now we can ask the dogs "do you need to go outside?" and they run to the door. 



luvdubs said:


> B. the issue with the cats may turn out tragically for the cats, and will be very difficult to work through.
> 
> My wife loves the pup, but she LOVES her cats. Is there a way that we can try to start working to curb her intense feline fatal attraction?


I totally understand this - I was a cat lover long before I got a dog, but my husband is a dog lover, and we've had cats and GSDs together for over 28 years now. I have never not been able to make it work and keep my cats safe, but at times it's been a lot of work. Keefer has probably the highest prey drive of any of the dogs we've had, and he will still sometimes air bite at Emmy's head when she's within range.  He's almost 10 years old, and Emmy was already here when we got him at 9 weeks old, so he grew up with her and Elvis, who I lost a year and a half ago. 

But Cassidy was the biggest challenge because she was only around my old kitty Punkin for a short time before Punkin died. And then it was 6 months before I got Elvis, who was about the size of Cassidy's head when I brought him home, lol. I was terrified she'd hurt him. She was just over a year old at the time. We have a spare bedroom, so that became the cat room. The food and water, litter box, and cat tree are in there, and there's a baby gate across the doorway. For the first four months, Elvis lived in there and I brought Cassidy in for daily supervised visits. She was fascinated by him, and I rewarded her for good behavior and remaining calm. If she got excited and scared him, she got banished from the room. How long she got to spend with him was totally up to her. She was severely leash reactive, so I had made the decision not to put her on leash, thinking that it could increase her frustration and make the situation worse. But with a new puppy, that's what I would do. 

Sometimes I'd put Elvis in his carrier on the floor near her while she got to chew a special cheese filled bone that she only got in the cat room. She would sniff him and try to lick him through the bars, and both of them had the chance to just hang out and get used to each other in close proximity under controlled circumstances. The advice I'd read was to put the dog in a crate with the cat loose, but we tried that once and she went nuts, which freaked him out. He was fine being in the crate with her laying on the floor in front of him, but if he had been frightened being that close to her, I wouldn't have done this. Because he was just a kitten and had no experience with dogs before, he was curious and interested in her too. 

Eventually, I was able to do brief supervised periods of time with them in the rest of the house. It was quite a while before they were loose together and I wasn't right there watching every second, and to this day I never leave dogs and cats loose in the house when we're not home, but I don't need to be in the same room with them. Both of the cats learned how to move around the house safely, and how to "turn off" prey drive. Elvis was masterful at this. On the floor he was prey, but if he just jumped up onto the couch or a chair or table, so he was at eye level with Cassidy, they were suddenly equals. And he figured out that cats that run are prey, but if he just sat there and looked at her she didn't know what to do with him! They also learned when she was in a mood to chase and when she was not. They never curled up together for a nap, but if she was on her side on the floor they would walk up to her and lick her face and rub their heads against her and she'd just lay there. They seemed to sense that she was not a threat and wouldn't do anything at those times. And of course, they learned how to navigate tight spaces that she wouldn't fit in order to get back to their room where they could eat and use their litter box in peace.

I'm not there, so I don't know if your puppy is one that with training and management would eventually be fine with your wife's kitties, or if her prey drive would always be an issue. If it were me though, I'd be inclined to try working on it for a bit before giving up, *unless* I felt like her obsession was so relentless that it couldn't be fixed. Right now, she's had the opportunity to chase the cats, which is obviously fun. Stop that right now by keeping her on leash, make sure the kitties have a safe place to retreat to, and work on training her to leave them alone. Again, only if you think you can do that safely. 



luvdubs said:


> How would the tether thing have to last? Lord, to be tethered to a puppy! Days? Weeks?


It really depends. But you're going to be spending lots of time with your puppy in the next few months in order to bond and train, (which includes basic house manners), so why not just have her attached to you for awhile? Not only will it help with the housebreaking, but it will also give her less opportunity to chase the cats. Habits that become ingrained are harder to break, so if you can, it's always best to not give them a chance to start.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> I look at potty training a little bit differently. I don't try to reward the specific act of peeing. I concentrate more on the whole picture of going outside to do it. I don't like a tether, I never do that. I have a light weight drag line on them and I use a crate.
> 
> I'm really proactive about it. I don't wait and try and time it when they have to go, I take them out on a leash every 45mins or so and tell them to go. No party or rewards, its just a pattern and I don't want a whole lot of excitement. I'm not saying the other methods aren't just as good, but I like creating an obedience around it. If you can be consistent about it, it goes pretty quick. It comes in handy for traveling, they empty out when you want them to.


This is exactly what I did. He was on a schedule and when he was pup, he was on a lead the entire time when we went outside. When he pottied, he got to come off lead and play for a little bit, then back inside. This was especially helpful at night when I didn't want him going where I couldn't see him and then darn.. didn't know if he actually went. I also said "go potty" every single time we went out on a lead with the intention of going potty. Now when we road trip and I need him to go at a stop.. I say "go potty!" and he does his business. It is also super helpful at night. I will let him out and say "go potty" and he does his business and comes in for bed. He will even take himself out (thank you doggy door) at the normal times he goes too. 

I don't think the other ways are bad, this is just what worked for us.. and I plan to train our new puppy this way too. 

With the cats I would really try to work on a "leave it" command and as he gets that it will be easier to call him off the cats. Yes he has a drive for them, but it can be managed.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

Chai said:


> OP - I know this phase can be frustrating, and it might seem that your pup will never get it.
> 
> I really hope that some of the helpful posts and suggestions made thus far are helpful to you. If you haven't already returned the pup, please take the time to mentally and physically regroup, and make a fresh start as if your pup was just 8 weeks old and in your home for the first time  If you provide more details of your situation, you may get some more tailored advice. Best of luck to you!


I wholeheartedly agree with this idea of regrouping and re-setting (and re-evaluating you expectations for your pup and) your situation with your pup. We were in the same predicament (except it was extreme mouthiness and a bit [email protected] 2 or 3) and, because of the anxiety that Leo was "causing", we gave him a probation period and we also utilized a 2-week (10-day) out-of-home trainer that truly advised us on how to approach and train Leo. We had a time to regroup; Leo had time to regroup---it worked for us. 

We never had an issue with peeing with Leo, but with Shane (14 yr. Black GSD), we inherited his issue---and it was out of fear that he would pee (and at 14, the issue is back). Shane has medical issues now, but back in the day, he would do it when a male human approached (my ex-BIL trained him extremely aggressively, not physical punishment, but just not "fair" and assertive; Shane had previously been severely abused prior to my sister and BIL having him). What is your pup's history? Age, circumstances getting her, how you feel when you are around her (which was a surprising revelation to us, as our training pointed out when we are stressed, sad, angry our pup reflects it in is actions) all affect how a pup progresses.

Good luck!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> She comes from a reputable breeder(non-working lines), and is actually a foster in our home until she has her 4th litter, when she will be spayed and become ours for good.


I would check the contract and see who owns this dog. Is it a mutual agreement or legal document signed by both parties?

I ask as the 4th litter is a lot of pups away. Think up to 40 pups. Each litter costs a lot to house the bitch and feed her and pay for vet bills. 

Is it defined:

Who pays vet bills? 

Who feeds mother when whelping?

Do you get to keep any pups to sell to cover these costs?

Where do all the potential customers call when collecting or viewing a pup?

Is there a agreed place to house the bitch in pup and the pups?

If these conditions aren't already agreed then I'd say the contract if any is void. I'd consult a lawyer to check this out. 

You may be duped into breeding your female for the benefit of somebody else looking to gain from your naivety.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Good points......



MadLab said:


> I would check the contract and see who owns this dog. Is it a mutual agreement or legal document signed by both parties?
> 
> I ask as the 4th litter is a lot of pups away. Think up to 40 pups. Each litter costs a lot to house the bitch and feed her and pay for vet bills.
> 
> ...


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

With regards to the peeing issue, my female did pee in the house on occasion up to her first heat at 9 months. She also had the odd poop, right in the middle of the room. She didn't see any problem with it . 

She didn't do it at night but did through the day. I just accepted and she grew out of it and is a really clean dog now, as in, she won't poop on the street but likes to find a private spot for that.

My male didn't pee in the house as a pup but would go poop in the middle of town.

They are all different and you need to tolerate some un pleasent ness when they are pups. How would you have got on as a child if you didn't have a dipper on. Pretty messy i would think.


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I would check the contract and see who owns this dog. Is it a mutual agreement or legal document signed by both parties?
> 
> I ask as the 4th litter is a lot of pups away. Think up to 40 pups. Each litter costs a lot to house the bitch and feed her and pay for vet bills.
> 
> ...


We have an agreement and a contract. She covers all vet bills aside from regular shots. She takes care of breeding, and will house Heidi and the pups after she whelps. If she has litters of 5 or less, she will give us $500. For bigger litters it's $1000. She takes care of all sales. That all depends upon Heidi being suitable for breeding, with desirable traits. She comes from excellent parents.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> We have an agreement and a contract. She covers all vet bills aside from regular shots. She takes care of breeding, and will house Heidi and the pups after she whelps. If she has litters of 5 or less, she will give us $500. For bigger litters it's $1000. She takes care of all sales. That all depends upon Heidi being suitable for breeding, with desirable traits. She comes from excellent parents.


Everything is pretty organized all right. I would still check the legality of the contract. Once you are attached to the dog you may not want to part with it.

Personally, i wouldn't like my dogs away from me for 3 months at a time.

Good luck with your pup anyways.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

MadLab said:


> Everything is pretty organized all right. I would still check the legality of the contract. Once you are attached to the dog you may not want to part with it.
> 
> Personally, i wouldn't like my dogs away from me for 3 months at a time.
> 
> Good luck with your pup anyways.



Not to hijack this thread,  but I've had Carly go to her breeder's house to be bred (well, she took her to be bred), and then when she was about 10 days out from whelping, she went to go stay with her. It was fine. Sage and I went to visit every couple of days during this time, and then also the eight weeks following. Yes, I missed her being at home, but she loves her breeder and her breeder's home. So not a problem. It's doable.


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

The breeder lives only about 7 miles up the road, so we'd get to visit plenty.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

luvdubs said:


> Yikes! I posted right before going to bed last night and I feel as if I sparked a conversation that caused quite a bit of dissent. Had I stayed awake and online I could have answered questions right away....
> Background:
> Heidi was born on January 27, and was 9 weeks when she joined our family.
> She comes from a reputable breeder(non-working lines), and is actually a foster in our home until she has her 4th litter, when she will be spayed and become ours for good.
> ...


 January 27th? So your puppy is exactly 4 months old. 

"*My frustration is starting to color the way I'm feeling about this pup*. I know that you can't judge it that way, but *none of our other dogs have had this much trouble training*. Yep, I'm very much aware that GSD's are unique and that my other dogs were mutts, *but my skills are being tried sorely*. My wife and kids love her dearly, and *I'm really trying*..."

It's a puppy! 

If this is how you are feeling about this, it is being transmitted to the puppy, and it may be best to contact your reputable breeder and have them take the puppy back.

There is more to it than rewarding the behavior you want. You need to set them up to succeed first. First off, you need a schedule. The dog is four months old so she should be able to manage 4-5 hours without pottying, but only if she sees the need. 

Put the bitch pup in the laundry room with a bucket of water for 5 hours and I will pretty much guarantee that you will have an epic fail. Take the pup out and wait for her to potty, then bring her in and crate her for a few hours in an appropriate sized crate, and you will probably be ok. 

So, let's think about this. I do not know the rhythm of your home, but the puppy needs to go out whenever she wakes up, after she eats, after she plays hard, and any time where the time has elapsed beyond 2-3 hours. If you cut off food and water at 7PM, and let her out to potty one last time at about 11PM, then you should be able to crate her for the night and she should be able to last until six or seven AM. But then she needs to be rushed to the door and let to pee outside.

Harshness or punishment or frustration with your puppy will make it take longer. 

Typical Schedule:
6AM Wake up out to potty. 
6:30 Breakfast, then out to potty
(after a good pottying the puppy will probably be ok for 1/2 hour or so without super-supervision, kind of like a grace period -- not all puppies give this though). 

Puppy plays outside the crate (supervised) until 10 minutes prior to you leaving for work/whatever, let's say 8 o'clock. 

7:50 potty break. 
8:00AM crate time.

12PM: Dog walker comes in and lets puppy out to potty, gives puppy her lunch, plays with puppy in the yard. 

12:50: Let's puppy potty one last time.
1:00PM: puppy is crated.

3:30 kids come home from school, immediately they let the puppy outside to potty and praise her and give her a cookie. 

If the children are not responsible enought to supervise her properly, they should put her back in her crate until you get home from work, at say 5:30. 

5:30PM: Potty time. 
6:00PM:evening meal, then potty. Then time to take her for a walk. 

7:00PM, water is put up. 

Play with your puppy, supervise your puppy.

8:30, outside to potty

relax with your puppy, supervise your puppy.

11:00 outside to potty, then crated for the night.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> January 27th? So your puppy is exactly 4 months old.
> 
> "*My frustration is starting to color the way I'm feeling about this pup*. I know that you can't judge it that way, but *none of our other dogs have had this much trouble training*. Yep, I'm very much aware that GSD's are unique and that my other dogs were mutts, *but my skills are being tried sorely*. My wife and kids love her dearly, and *I'm really trying*..."
> 
> ...


Perfection.......it's really quite easy. All about planning and fine tuning as you go.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK I have to laugh at "it's really quite easy" and the 12 step programs offered to house training a pup. I laugh because my first four puppies were so so easy! Then there's number 5. She was over a year before she was house trained. It was a frustrating year. And I am sure my annoyance showed! I know that I even demonstrated it a time or two. She did eventually get it but it was a long, hard road. So what I have to say is in all likelihood, you will probably have a house trained pup much more quickly than my latest experience.
Cant help with the cats at all.
Good luck and dredge up some patience for the toilet training....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, 

My little sister's daughters are 4 and 5 years old. Trust me, house training a pup, ANY pup, is easier that potty training some kids. And if you EVER say something like "oh, his kid is 4 years old and still not potty trained, my kid will never..." Wash your mouth out with soap and pray to the good fairy of potty training that she will forgive your uncharitable thoughts, else your kid will very likely be _that _kid.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> to go, I take them out on a leash every 45mins or so and tell them to go. No party or rewards, its just a pattern and I don't want a whole lot of excitement. I'm not saying the other methods aren't just as good, but I like creating an obedience around it. If you can be consistent about it, it goes pretty quick. It comes in handy for traveling, they empty out when you want them to.


I do this the same way; no parties, just learning to associate the command with the action. Never had a problem and they got it within a week. Actually raised a few pups this way who never had an "accident".


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## luvdubs (May 18, 2015)

selzer said:


> LOL,
> 
> My little sister's daughters are 4 and 5 years old. Trust me, house training a pup, ANY pup, is easier that potty training some kids. And if you EVER say something like "oh, his kid is 4 years old and still not potty trained, my kid will never..." Wash your mouth out with soap and pray to the good fairy of potty training that she will forgive your uncharitable thoughts, else your kid will very likely be _that _kid.


 Yikes! Thanks for your kind intimation that I'm also a bad parent. Sorry if I irritated you by answering questions about the breeder. I appreciate all the good advice coming from so many of you! Not sure why I got under one person's skin so badly. Not only will I try some of the techniques mentioned here, I'll also avoid returning. Most forums I've been part of have not had more senior members be that way toward new members. Best wishes to all of you, and a sincere thank you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

luvdubs said:


> Yikes! Thanks for your kind intimation that I'm also a bad parent. Sorry if I irritated you by answering questions about the breeder. I appreciate all the good advice coming from so many of you! Not sure why I got under one person's skin so badly. Not only will I try some of the techniques mentioned here, I'll also avoid returning. Most forums I've been part of have not had more senior members be that way toward new members. Best wishes to all of you, and a sincere thank you.


You misunderstood that. There's nothing intimated about you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Luvdubs, in response to your response to Selzer: never understand why people on forums get so easily upset and threaten to leave. First it only hurts yourself if you really leave as you deprive yourself from good advice. Second, most people don't care if you leave in anger and third, her post was not offensive at all (IMHO).
Why don't you implement the advice that you like and ignore what you don't? Easy and you don't have to waste your energy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well it would appear I'm late to the party!! OP don't sweat it if you appear to have set off a firestorm?? It does not take much here! 

If I am right??? Then you must be wrong?? Kinda thing, I saw it once in a different thread awhile back! And noticed that it was essentially people "that knew what they were" doing...arguing with each other??? 

No one learns anything in those dust ups! So I try not to do that myself??

I have no input on the "peeing" and the "breeding" it looks like you got solid advice on those fronts!

Personally (my bias) I would lose the clicker! Your dog seems like he goes over threshold quickly??? Wasted energy and effort in my view to use a Clicker now but use it if you chose!  

But the cat thing! Yeah that's kinda my thing! Real dogs (and yes for those that know me...a Boxer is a real dog! ) But 15 years and up to 18 cats and three dogs living together and "never" a single cat v dog situation!

There is only one rule in Cat/Dog relationships...*"The Dog Never Chases The Cat!"* Details can be found here and I'll add...no one uses a "Clicker" just saying!

You'll also see the "Place Command." Train your dog to "Place" and you can correct your Dog for breaking "Place" cat free! A solid "Down" should also be trained! If he chases??? It's "Down" play time is freaking over! I don't care what the cats do...for the most part.

As has been mentioned but a drag leash on the dog a short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture, in case you "need" it! Details can be found here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6715746-post2.html


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

luvdubs said:


> Yikes! Thanks for your kind intimation that I'm also a bad parent. Sorry if I irritated you by answering questions about the breeder. I appreciate all the good advice coming from so many of you! Not sure why I got under one person's skin so badly. Not only will I try some of the techniques mentioned here, I'll also avoid returning. Most forums I've been part of have not had more senior members be that way toward new members. Best wishes to all of you, and a sincere thank you.


Sorry, my post was referring to middleofnowhere's post that said something about patience for toilet training. My post was serious in that it actually does refer to my sister's daughters, but also light-hearted, because without a little humor, the world gets mighty heavy at times. Sorry for the lack of clarity.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

OP how are you doing with the potty training and the cat issues?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

luvdubs said:


> After gratefully reading the comments of experienced GSD owners, I'm coming up with:
> A. don't sweat the potty issue, it will come, but do have her checked for UTI, which we will do asap
> B. the issue with the cats may turn out tragically for the cats, and will be very difficult to work through.
> 
> My wife loves the pup, but she LOVES her cats. Is there a way that we can try to start working to curb her intense feline fatal attraction?


I've only read to here, and I forget what you said you'd done already with the cats.

We had 3 when we got our pup. We have two now (loss unrelated to dog, in fact, he was the one who actually viewed the puppy as a potential playmate). First thing we did before PuppyGirl even came home was create safe spaces for the cats. Entire rooms of our house are dog-free or mostly dog-free zones, and doors and pet gates keep them that way. The cats relax much more when they know they have a safe escape route if the dog is getting to be too much.

I should disclose that my dog was never animal-aggressive, and she's only ever made playful gestures toward the cats. She's chased them, but for her it's more of a high speed follow. 

I abandoned the clicker pretty early on and went to a training collar in the house. Puppy was on leash and I was on the other end whenever she wasn't crated (yes this was a giant pain, yes it also paid dividends later). If the pup went after any cat, she was corrected with the collar and told, "LEAVE THE KITTY." It helped that we were also learning in puppy class what "leave it" meant, but even though her impulse control was terrible at that age, she started learning the phrase, "Leave the kitty." She finally earned her freedom in the house (off leash) when she was about 6 months old. She did hear "Leave the kitty!" a lot for awhile. This might take months (I knew she understood it but the urge to go see what the kitty was up to was just too strong sometimes), but just the other night, the dog was hanging out with us watching TV and the cat wandered up to the couch - dog's ears pricked up but no other reaction. A reminder to leave the cat alone was all it took.


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