# Surgery



## jiujitsuchick

I know I am probably going to get a lot of crap for asking about this but it has to be done... I've hit a wall in terms of available information.

I have a dog (Kona) from a very reputable breeder but we've had problems with his ears ever since it was time for them to start standing. One came up, one didn't. We spend most of the time between 4 and 6 months taping his ear with one method or another to no avail. Kona is 14 months old now so the odds of taping still working are slim to none. The one that didn't has been an endless pain in the (r)ear, not only for us but for Kona as well. We have a very helpful vet, and are very informed doggy parents, but we want to know more about surgery (implants) to bring up the limp ear. Has anybody had it done (successfully or not) and where if you don't mind saying... We will go to any length for Kona who has countless ear infections (& yeast infections) in that ear because of poor air flow- this theory is currently agreed upon with our vet. (Kona is kind of like an old man- lots of hair in the ears) He has even given himself several small hematomas from scratching- the results of which we know as cauliflower ear.

Right now I just want information, so if any one is considering berating me for "canine cosmetic surgery" please save your comments. Though the appearance of the GSD is important to us, Kona is more important. I've looked through some of the old posts for information on this but I haven't seen much about the actual surgery. I would appreciate any direction that you might provide. I want to be as knowledgeable as I can be before making such a big decision.

Thanks for your help...


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## Kaity

I dont think its cosmetic as much as its useful.
They can hear better with them up (so Im told)


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## jiujitsuchick

I don't know if anyone else has ever searched this question via google, but people have asked it before and have gotten chewed out for being vain. I'm just bracing for the worst... thanks for the positive words.


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## Jax08

We have two boxers and I've heard teh same philosophy's as the OP. One is cropped and the other isn't. They do not have problems with their ears.

Has he been tested for allergies? Is it possible the ear/yeast infections are being caused by something not related to the floppy ear? does he have itchy skin? Any other indication of being uncomfortable?

You obviously have a problem going on, especially if he's developed an hematoma on his ear. I'm just wondering if there isn't something else going on to cause the original problem.


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## JKlatsky

I'm not going to disagree that up ears have better ear flow, but really I think there has to be something else going on. Maybe the other ear is better able to dry out, so it doesn't show as symptomatically, but there must be something causing the build up. Flop-eared dogs everywhere are not all suffering from ear infections. 

Have you considered that there may be some kind of allergy? Or possible systemic yeast problem?

Before I went in for any surgery I would consider if my problem could be better managed without.


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## jiujitsuchick

We feed raw so we always have the animals in our house (we foster GSDs on occasion) allergy tested so we don't give them any raw meat they are allergic to. Kona doesn't have any known allergies. He is very active and I suspect (especially now with the snow) that moisture gets in there and can't get out. This is statistically a bigger problem with all "flop-eared" dogs.

I appreciate the questions but the purpose of this post is to find out more about surgery, not possible causes of infection. We've explored that angle exhaustively and I just want to learn more about surgical options. I assure everyone that we will not be making any decisions rashly and without all possible information.

If you have any information about surgery, I would like to hear about it here. Thanks again.


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## Vinnie

Hey Courtney. Not going to “berate” you 
There are many vets that just won’t do this surgery so you’re going to have a hard time finding someone. The implant is a piece of thick mesh (somewhat like wire mesh) they insert. The surgery is purely cosmetic. There is no health benefit and thus the reason many vets will not perform the surgery. On top of that if you do find a vet to do the surgery it is not guaranteed to work, last I heard (which was a few years ago now).

Is Kona still teething? Or does he have all of his adult teeth now? Does he still want to chew on things a lot?


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## jiujitsuchick

He is 14 months old and I do believe that all of his adult teeth are in. Based on my research there are a couple of types of implants now, the mesh being the least favored of them. I know that small plastic "rods" are being used more often and can often be removed after a year because the resulting scar tissue suffices. I disagree that these surgeries are "purely" cosmestic. I don't honestly think we know enough to say whether or not there is any physiologic benefit, small as it may be. Evolution has given wolves (and similar wild dogs) erect ears for a reason...

I also know that finding a vet will be difficult, hence the post.

PS- You weren't berating at all, I appreaciate your pragmatic approach.


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## Samba

At 14 months there is no teething that I know of. I would bet real money this ear is not coming up on its own. There are some surgeons who have success with certain ear carriage anomalies. Are you looking for a surgeon?

I have seen ears fall because of chronic infection. sometimes it is hard to know which came first.


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## jiujitsuchick

Right now, I'm looking for anything.


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: jiujitsuchickThis is statistically a bigger problem with all "flop-eared" dogs.


I'm sorry but this is just not true. If it were, all of the breeds of dogs (large and small) with flop ears would have more ear problems. (i.e. labs, retrievers, etc.)


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## Samba

http://pet-diseases.suite101.com/article.cfm/floppy_eared_dogs_and_chronic_ear_infections

My experience, flop ears....more problems.


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## 3K9Mom

I understand your frustration, but I don't see how this surgery will help. 

I've had beagles and lab mixes (floppy eared dogs) and I've had shepherds. The beagles and mixes, who don't have allergies, aren't prone to ear infex. The shepherds with beautiful erect ears, who have allergies, are. 

Feeding raw is a GREAT start. But it's only a start. If Kona has inhalant (environmental) allergies, then you need to battle that as well.

My GSD Camper had a lot of allergies, some food, but a lot of inhalant (and I think some contact) allergies. Dust mites was his worst allergy. But he was also allergic to numerous plants in our yard (we ripped out about $10K in landscaping), trees in our neighborhood (







Not much we could do about that) and had a mild allergy to mold, so I was always scrubbing any surface that got moist.

(When we got our new puppy, we got all new carpet, new sofa, and a new mattress and boxspring -- and tossed the spare bed in the guest room --because I wanted to ensure that we didn't start off with a dust mites allergy problem. So far, so good. Whew!)

http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/dustmites.php

http://www.ehso.com/ehso.php?URL=http%3A...2836014522.html

In other words, the world around Kona may be the problem.









I strongly suggest taking him to a board certified dermatologist and getting a skin prick test done. 

I also suggest doing another food elimination diet (I presume you've already done one in the past). Just because Kona wasn't allergic to a certain food or foods in the past doesn't mean he's not allergic to them now. The autoimmune system is a strange and wondrous thing. It morphs over time. With kids who have severe allergies, we need to expect it will change more quickly, or even, seemingly, overnight. It's not that it does change overnight. It's just that every exposure to an allergen makes that allergen MORE TOXIC, so the reaction becomes exponentially worse.

Antihistamines help us control the reactions, but the only way to control the worsening reactions is to eliminate (or at least severely curtail) the exposure. 

Finally, if you're not using an ANTI-FUNGAL ear rinse (these are usually Rx only), you may want to try one. Kona will hate me for suggesting this. But whenever our dogs get moisture into their ears consistently, whether it's from swimming, rain/snow, whatever, we have to get those ears dried out. It rains a lot here, so when my kids come in from the rain, I use a thin old t-shirt and quickly dry out their ears. 

But when my kids swim or get soaking wet from snow or rain, I use a rinse that helps the ears dry out quickly. One of my dogs was inclined toward infex when she swam a lot, so I used a rinse (after drying her ears). This alone prevented yeast from building up. I used to use T-8- Keto, but that company has been shut down. Epi-otic is regular rinse, but it doesn't contain an anti fungal. If you ask your vet about something similar to T-8-Keto, you may be able to get something that will provide some preventative assistance while you work out the cause (allergens) as well. 

If I speak to my vet in the next couple of days and get a name of something similar, I'll post it for you. But your vet should know what I'm talking about.

Good luck. I know how brain-crushingly frustrating severe allergies are.


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## codmaster

Where are you located? A member of our local GSD group in NO CA had surgery done on one of her dogs ears and it came out great! If you are anywhere near here, let me know and I will find out her vets name.


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## Vinnie

> Originally Posted By: Sambahttp://pet-diseases.suite101.com/article.cfm/floppy_eared_dogs_and_chronic_ear_infections
> 
> My experience, flop ears....more problems.


I'm sorry, I can't open the link you posted. It keeps telling me that "internet explorer - aborted operation" and I've tried on 2 different servers.

The simple fact is that ear infections are common to all sorts of breeds. Floppy ears or standing ears. It doesn't affect one more than the other.

I see your experience is that flop ears have more problems. My experience is that flop ears have less. In fact, my experience, is that I've only owned one dog with chronic ear infections and she was a GSD with both ears standing upright from day one. Looks like my experience is fairly similar to 3K9Mom. However, I know that’s just personal experience and not a scientific study.

Even in humans some are more prone to yeast infections, others are not. Some humans produce a higher volume and thicker ear wax than others - yet all of our ears are fairly similarly shaped. To me saying a flop ear dog is more prone to infection is like saying a person with long hair is more prone to ear infections. 



> Originally Posted By: jiujitsuchickI disagree that these surgeries are "purely" cosmestic. I don't honestly think we know enough to say whether or not there is any physiologic benefit, small as it may be. Evolution has given wolves (and similar wild dogs) erect ears for a reason...


I’ll ask around about the surgery re: rods. As I recall this surgery has been around for a long time also and is nothing new. If I recall correctly back when I was checking into these surgeries for my dog, this was not desired because it calls for 2 surgeries instead of just one and a longer recovery time. 

It’s good to disagree sometimes. IMO. It’s what helps us all learn new things - right?
However, I believe there are many vets that would agree that these surgeries are purely cosmetic. Meaning there are no known medicinal reasons for the surgery. This has been the understanding for many, many years. The domestic dog has evolved a long way from wolves and are not longer as comparable to wolves or wild dogs on every level. 

Ultimately, though, I believe having the surgery or not is the dog owner’s decision. So please don’t take me wrong.


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## Samba

Well known in the animal care industry....


A dog with floppy ears or long ears is more prone to developing ear infections and unfortunately, many dog owners with breeds like Cocker Spaniels, Beagles and Basset Hounds find that their dogs suffer from chronic ear infections.

The key to treating and curing chronic ear infections in dogs long ears is to understand why these frequent infections occur.

Why Are Dogs With Long Ears or Floppy Ears More Prone to Chronic Ear Infections? 
A dog with long ears or floppy ears is more apt to develop frequent and chronic ear infections due to the warm, dark, moist environment that's created inside the ear canal.

Unlike a dog with erect ears, floppy ears cover the opening of the dog's ear canal. The dog's long ears cover the ear canal, holding in moisture and creating a warm, dark environment - a perfect environment for bacteria growth and fungal growth.



Read more at Suite101: Floppy Eared Dogs and Chronic Ear Infections: A Dog With Long Ears is More Prone to Discharge, Redness, Infection http://pet-diseases.suite101.com/article...s#ixzz0bybWWjU2


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## 3K9Mom

> Quote:
> Dogs with * long, pendulous ears, such as Cocker Spaniels, Labrador Retrievers, Basset Hounds and Irish Setters, * certainly are more predisposed to ear problems than those breeds with short, erect ears. As the ear folds, it covers the ear canal and prohibits air from entering and drying the canal. The result is a moist, warm ear canal that is a perfect environment for organisms to grow.


http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0079.htm


Long pendulous ears. There are floppy ears and there are long ears that completely cover the ear opening. 



> Quote:
> 
> As a pet owner, it is important to know that persistent or recurring ear infections in a dog commonly are manifestations of other concurring disease processes. *Allergies and hypothyroidism are good examples. Systemic allergies often cause dermatitis and itching in the ear canal, which predispose self-trauma and subsequent ear infection. Hypothyroidism may manifest itself as increased thickness of the skin and continual release of exudate in the ear canal, which favors an environment for otitis externa. *


Same link


Hypothyroidism and allergies. We see these two very often --separately and together -- over in the Health section of this forum. 




> Quote:
> Possible health problems include hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, skin allergies, bloat, and spinal myelopathy (incurable paralysis of the hind legs). Hypothyroidism (low thyroid function) is common in German Shepherds although they usually do not exhibit the traditional symptoms of excess weight, laziness or sluggishness, or coat and skin problems.


http://www.gsdrescue1.org/thegsd.htm

Courtney is considering surgery for Kona. Surgery has risks. There is no such thing as minor surgery. 

Before we go anywhere near surgery, I hope that we rule out other causes of Kona's ear issues. Hypothyroidism can be ruled out via a specific blood test. Food allergies can be (re) established via elimination diet. Ear rinses may be very helpful. A visit to a dermatologist is definitely in order. 


I'm not one of those people who is anti-surgery and always believes in the most conservative treatment available. But I do know that surgery is always risky. And when it's not clear that a surgical procedure may help at all, I want to make sure that an owner has reviewed every other possible diagnosis (including several diagnoses working together) and option available to her. 

As Vinnie says, ultimately it's up to the owner to decide what's best for her dog. But an informed owner is capable of making a good decision. 

A GSD with floppy ears simply doesn't have the heavy ears like a cocker spaniel.


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## LisaT

I suspect that even if you can the ears standing, you will still have the ear infection problems. We see it all the time on the health board.

As a side note, you might try some hyalauronic acid. When I started my senior girl on it, it made her ears stand up, completely changed her ears at the age of 11. Also, LJsMom has a senior GSD that had a floppy ear - that too is standing after starting the HA.


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## ch3ckpo1nt

How do you go about giving your dog hyalauronic acid?


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## Samba

Do you mean oral HA?

I had my dog's joints injected with HA and have given oral too.

I don't have a problem with cosmetic surgery. Somebody bring me some botox! I don't know that it will help the ear infections. I wouldn't count on it for that but neither would I not do the surgery if I so desired. 

The problem is with the infections...repeated hematomas can certainly mess up an ear. Of course I was wondering if hematoma repair and splinting might help with the standing. My girl formed strong scar tissue after hematoma repari. 

The ear infections may not at all be related to the floppy ear in a GSD. That is separate from the fact of the higher incidence of ear infections in lop earred dogs, which does occur.


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## BowWowMeow

I don't know anything about the surgery but I wonder what your plan will be after your dog's ear is up and he still has ear infections? I have had two animals with chronic ear infections. One was my gsd, Basu, who had horrible environmental allergies and the other is my cat, Cleo, who also has environmental allergies. Both had standing ears. My rottie cross, Chama, had floppy ears and although her ears got dirty and needed to be cleaned she did not have one ear infection in the 14 years she was on this earth. 

Actually maybe I do have experience with the surgery? My cat did have a hematoma and her ear fell. The vet insisted on tacking her ear to prevent further problems. Although it stands it is kind of lumpy and she has continued to have infections in that ear.


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## LisaT

Regarding the HA, I just used oral HA.

I started out using this product: http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Naturals-Hyaluronic-Acid (1/2 pill per day)

but it's chicken based (and my dogs can't have chicken), so I switched to this one:
http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Hyaluronic-Acid (1 pill per day)

It was my mixed breed that it changed the ears on, she's 33 pounds.


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## LisaT

Oops, it's spelled hyaluronic.


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## jiujitsuchick

As I said previously, I don't care to talk about ear infections or allergies here. I just want a new avenue to explore with ear surgery. For those of you who have messaged me your input has helped tremendously... please keep the resources coming.


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## jiujitsuchick

I'm in Iowa... but any references that I can call and get information from are still helpful. As I've said previously, this isn't something we've decided to do, this is something we are exploring. Thanks...


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## MsTrelle

Hi, I am new to the forum. What ever happened with your dog's ears? Did you use the hyaluronic acid? Are they standing?


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## MsTrelle

How long did you ladies give the supplement before seeing results?


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