# Considering returning 4 month old puppy to breeder



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

Hi all,

This is my first post here. Maybe my last? I hope not but I really need some help with my new puppy. My husband and I got her from the breeder 4 days ago. She is our 5th GSD. We are having some normal puppy issues with crate training, biting/nipping, etc but the biggest problem we are having is her barking and lunging at anyone who walks by the front of our house when we are out in the front yard. I say "yard" but its really more of a patio. We live in a townhouse so we just have this small 10x10 grassy area in front of our house that is enclosed by a wrought iron fence. The fence just has posts so you can see through the bars and there is a sidewalk directly in front of the house that is very busy. There is also a school across the street so there are lots of little kids around all the time. Our puppy lunges and barks furiously with her hackles up and anyone who walks by but she'll also bark the same way if there's a person across the street too. She continues barking and lunging long after the people have gone and she seems completely stressed out. I have tried a couple of things to get her to stop by I can't get her attention when she is so revved up. We called the breeder and were told not to let her bark like that, but that appears to be easier said than done. I am really concerned by the fact that we can't get her attention while she is barking and her hackles are up. One of my previous GSDs had a severe dog aggression problem and the main reason that we couldn't correct it was that he was too far gone to listen to us once he started barking. He was from a GSD rescue association and we didn't get him until he was 1-1/2 years old though so we assumed that something had happened to him previously. We had to manage him so much that it was exhausting and we don't want to go through that again. It was actually our main motivation to getting a dog from a breeder this time. 

So do any of you have suggestions to help with this behavior? Is it normal? Am I doing something wrong? After having dealt with a dog with serious aggression issues in the past, I know that I am not up for doing it again. I may be overreacting as it's been about 15 years since I dealt with a GSD puppy but I never had aggression type issues with the two dogs I had from puppyhood. They definitely were a handful but nothing that concerned me as much as this does.

Thanks in advance for any help. I really don't want to give up so early but I also don't want to do any damage to this dog if she would be better off in another home.


----------



## I~Luv~Maggie (Feb 20, 2017)

She may be territorial. You could try an E collar to correct the behavior, that has worked in the past for me. Never stop socializing her. The fact that she barks and lunges may be from a lack of socialization.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

She's brand new to everything and still settling in.All of the activity in front of the yard is overwhelming and she's anxious.I would take her to a quiet area to potty perhaps in back of the townhouse.I suspect she is just being flooded with too much too soon.Have you tried correcting the barking BEFORE she starts?When she alerts by tensing up and focusing on a person give an EH! and animate a tug or toy to give her something appropriate to do.Very short periods out front.


----------



## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Do NOT put an ecollar on a 4 month old puppy!!!! That will not solve anything...


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

This is not normal behavior for a stable dog, I'm sorry. Maybe it can be managed, but you would really need the help of a trainer. Please don't use an ecollar for this without having guidance for using one. An ecollar can be a wonderful tool, but there are wrong ways to use it, and it can make the problem worse. This is definitely not a problem that can be solved on the internet, unfortunately. You would need someone knowledgeable to assess the situation. Someone that knows working dogs, fear issues (that is likely where this comes from) and aggression issues. To be perfectly honest, if the breeder's only advice was to not allow the barking to continue, they don't sound very knowledgeable. I certainly wouldn't fault you for not wanting to deal with this...


----------



## Timberdog (Dec 26, 2016)

If returning to the breeder is possible, why not? The pup is 4 months old, you don't know what happened previously that may have caused the reactions, or it may be a temperament issue. I am sure there are ways to correct and manage the reactions, but it may take a lot of effort and time to work with this pup. With your own previous experiences of managing a gsd with dog aggression, are you willing and ready for the challenge? 

Or look for another pup with temperament that fit better to your expectations?


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Timberdog said:


> If returning to the breeder is possible, why not? The pup is 4 months old, you don't know what happened previously that may have caused the reactions, or it may be a temperament issue. I am sure there are ways to correct and manage the reactions, but it may take a lot of effort and time to work with this pup. With your own previous experiences of managing a gsd with dog aggression, are you willing and ready for the challenge?
> 
> Or look for another pup with temperament that fit better to your expectations?


I agree with this completely. Find a different breeder, meet lots of dogs, talk to owners who have nice, non-reactive GSDs, and go from there. Go to clubs, see dogs work. Find a puppy out of dogs you like.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

dogma13 said:


> *She's brand new to everything and still settling in.*All of the activity in front of the yard is overwhelming and she's anxious.I would take her to a quiet area to potty perhaps in back of the townhouse.I suspect she is just being flooded with too much too soon.Have you tried correcting the barking BEFORE she starts?When she alerts by tensing up and focusing on a person give an EH! and animate a tug or toy to give her something appropriate to do.Very short periods out front.


I agree completely. She is overwhelmed. She is a baby. You have only had her for 4 days. Out front is a bad place for her. Keep her inside as much as possible. Find a less busy outdoor place to take her to - even if you have to put her in the car and drive her there. Give her a chance to decompress. I honestly wouldn't be expecting anything from her at this point. You could, at a minimum, hand feed her some kibble teaching her to make eye contact with you before giving her a piece. She will learn to look to you. She will start to bond to you. Do you yell, get anxious and frustrated when she has a barking frenzy? If so, that is feeding her behavior. I have found that responding quietly, or with just a sound is more effective. If you feel she is not the pup for you, return her to the breeder sooner, rather than later. Let the breeder place her in a more appropriate home.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I agree completely. She is overwhelmed. She is a baby. You have only had her for 4 days. Out front is a bad place for her. Keep her inside as much as possible. Find a less busy outdoor place to take her to - even if you have to put her in the car and drive her there. Give her a chance to decompress. I honestly wouldn't be expecting anything from her at this point. You could, at a minimum, hand feed her some kibble teaching her to make eye contact with you before giving her a piece. She will learn to look to you. She will start to bond to you. Do you yell, get anxious and frustrated when she has a barking frenzy? If so, that is feeding her behavior. I have found that responding quietly, or with just a sound is more effective. If you feel she is not the pup for you, return her to the breeder sooner, rather than later. Let the breeder place her in a more appropriate home.


I'm going to preface this with I mean no disrespect to you, and I'm not trying to be argumentative with what I am going to say... I know it's difficult to determine intent over the internet, so I thought I would get that out of the way first.

This puppy is showing who they are... a reactive, fearful dog. If this person chooses to keep this puppy, they should be aware that they very well could be in for a lifetime of managing these issues. I know they have only had the dog for a few days, and things are new to the puppy, but this is still not a normal reaction for a stable dog to have. Reactivity/fear is not fun to manage. And it is most likely a genetic thing. There is no shame in not wanting to manage this for the life of a dog. 

Dogs with strong genetics do not do this. Not even with new people or new places.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi Eileen. I've probably written 10 times on this forum about how awful my male GSD was at 4 months old. It was exactly at 4 months when he found his voice. He started barking at people and dogs. Then one night my husband was reading the paper and Finn kept nudging him and jumping on him, just wanting attention.

My husband tried to ignore him...then Finn backed up, and started barking, snarling and lunging/hackles up moving closer and closer... my husband rolled up the news paper got up and swatted him in the side of the head with the paper and yelled crate. Finn yelped and ran in his crate. I don't condone hitting but the swat was perfectly timed and he never repeated that behavior.

I took the barking and lunging and snarling as the beginning signs of aggression and called a trainer in my area who is known for the good work he does with GSDs. He evaluated Finn a couple of days after the incident and said he was just flexing his muscles and looking to see what he could get away with.

He recommended basic obedience classes and also fitted Finn with a H. Sprenger prong collar (some people think 4 months is too young for a prong collar but the trainer fitted Finn and showed me how to use it to make corrections during class and while out walking).

That barking and lunging can not be allowed. It's an anti-social behavior and you need to learn how to correct it. ASAP! 
Barking and lunging could become a pattern and he'll repeat it until someone takes charge and interrupts it. 
I would recommend that you sign your pup up for basic obedience class right away. Try and find a trainer in your area that has experiencing working with GSDs.

For now, don't let your pup in the yard by himself. Keep him away from the fence. Distract him by playing with him. Engage him in games of fetch. Use treats and praise when he shows happy puppy behavior. Keep your own voice happy and upbeat when you play with him outside and inside the house. Good luck.

PS. During Finn's initial evaluation, the trainer noticed that he was lacking ball drive and showed me how to engage him in activities that would increase his drive to play ball.
That made all the difference. Once he learned to like playing fetch etc training and redirecting became a lot easier and more fun.

Good luck.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I agree completely. She is overwhelmed. She is a baby. You have only had her for 4 days. Out front is a bad place for her. Keep her inside as much as possible. Find a less busy outdoor place to take her to - even if you have to put her in the car and drive her there. Give her a chance to decompress. I honestly wouldn't be expecting anything from her at this point. You could, at a minimum, hand feed her some kibble teaching her to make eye contact with you before giving her a piece. She will learn to look to you. She will start to bond to you. Do you yell, get anxious and frustrated when she has a barking frenzy? If so, that is feeding her behavior. I have found that responding quietly, or with just a sound is more effective. If you feel she is not the pup for you, return her to the breeder sooner, rather than later. Let the breeder place her in a more appropriate home.


I don't know. I don't have experience with a reactive puppy, but I can tell you that my stable, close to bombproof adult dog was never like that as a puppy. She bounded out to meet the world. I don't think I saw her hackles, ever, until she was an older puppy beginning to mature - nearly a year of age. It is true that this puppy is new to the world, but I would be concerned if I didn't see confident curiosity and would be inclined to think that this wasn't a good puppy for me.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

GypsyGhost said:


> I'm going to preface this with I mean no disrespect to you, and I'm not trying to be argumentative with what I am going to say... I know it's difficult to determine intent over the internet, so I thought I would get that out of the way first.
> 
> This puppy is showing who they are... a reactive, fearful dog. If this person chooses to keep this puppy, they should be aware that they very well could be in for a lifetime of managing these issues. I know they have only had the dog for a few days, and things are new to the puppy, but this is still not a normal reaction for a stable dog to have. Reactivity/fear is not fun to manage. And it is most likely a genetic thing. There is no shame in not wanting to manage this for the life of a dog.
> 
> Dogs with strong genetics do not do this. Not even with new people or new places.


You keep calling this puppy, a reactive, fearful dog. I have not met this puppy. I can only go by what the OP is saying. Judging by the environment - the puppy being in a small area in front of the house with tons of strange people going by is overwhelming, IMO. Beyond that, I would never label a puppy and call it not normal based on someones' description on the internet. 

If the OP feels unable to deal with this pup, she should return it.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> I'm going to preface this with I mean no disrespect to you, and I'm not trying to be argumentative with what I am going to say... I know it's difficult to determine intent over the internet, so I thought I would get that out of the way first.
> 
> This puppy is showing who they are... a reactive, fearful dog. If this person chooses to keep this puppy, they should be aware that they very well could be in for a lifetime of managing these issues. I know they have only had the dog for a few days, and things are new to the puppy, but this is still not a normal reaction for a stable dog to have. Reactivity/fear is not fun to manage. And it is most likely a genetic thing. There is no shame in not wanting to manage this for the life of a dog.
> 
> Dogs with strong genetics do not do this. Not even with new people or new places.


ITA. Your puppy appears stressed because she is stressed. She's showing signs of fear based aggression at four months of age. This is genetic.

And OMG! Do NOT use an e collar on her! You'll convince her she's right to be scared. You never use an e collar on a puppy. It is a valuable tool, but requires a lot of skill to use correctly.

Normal puppies at four months are still pretty happy go lucky. Your pup does not have sound nerves.

It sounds as if you're not really up for another round of managing a poorly bred GSD for 12-15 years. I wouldn't. There's nothing wrong with returning her to the breeder. Let the breeder deal with the consequences of her breeding decisions.

Then come here and let the knowledgeable GSD people guide you to a responsible breeder so you can have a puppy that will bring joy into your life.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> You keep calling this puppy, a reactive, fearful dog. I have not met this puppy. I can only go by what the OP is saying. Judging by the environment - the puppy being in a small area in front of the house with tons of strange people going by is overwhelming, IMO. Beyond that, I would never label a puppy and call it not normal based on someones' description on the internet.
> 
> If the OP feels unable to deal with this pup, she should return it.


That's completely fine for you to not call this puppy reactive or fearful. But this behavior is reactive behavior, and reactivity more likely than not comes from a place of fear. I don't need to see this puppy to deduce that this behavior is fear based. A dog with a solid temperament who isn't fearful would not have this type of reaction.

I just don't think it's fair to sugar coat this kind of behavior. I have a reactive, fearful dog, and was promosed it would get better. Nope. It gets manageable, if you really know what you are doing. But it's still there. The dog still lacks confidence. The dog is still reactive.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

WateryTart said:


> I don't know. I don't have experience with a reactive puppy, but I can tell you that my stable, close to bombproof adult dog was never like that as a puppy. She bounded out to meet the world. I don't think I saw her hackles, ever, until she was an older puppy beginning to mature - nearly a year of age. It is true that this puppy is new to the world, but I would be concerned if I didn't see confident curiosity and would be inclined to think that this wasn't a good puppy for me.


But in all fairness.... did you get your pup at 4 months and immediately have him in front of your house bombarded by strangers? 

If the OP wants to keep the pup, I suggest she have someone 'hands on' evaluate the pup. If she can't/doesn't want to keep the pup, she should return her to the breeder.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

GypsyGhost said:


> That's completely fine for you to not call this puppy reactive or fearful. But this behavior is reactive behavior, and reactivity more likely than not comes from a place of fear. I don't need to see this puppy to deduce that this behavior is fear based. A dog with a solid temperament who isn't fearful would not have this type of reaction.
> 
> I just don't think it's fair to sugar coat this kind of behavior. I have a reactive, fearful dog, and was promosed it would get better. Nope. It gets manageable, if you really know what you are doing. But it's still there. The dog still lacks confidence. The dog is still reactive.


Same response as to WateryTart. If the OP wants to keep the pup, she should have it evaluated 'in person', not on the internet.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

A four month old puppy seeing strangers walk past a house is not "being bombarded" by strangers. A stable puppy with a solid temperament should be able to observe the world and not have a melt down.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We have 4 gsds, 2 came home at 9 weeks and 2 at 4 months. None barked like this at people passing by. One did start barking at skateboarders and bicyclists later on, but was trained and the issue stopped. If you want a trouble free gsd i would consider returning the pup, sounds like nerves to me.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> *She's brand new to everything and still settling in.All of the activity in front of the yard is overwhelming and she's anxious.*I would take her to a quiet area to potty perhaps in back of the townhouse.I suspect she is just being flooded with too much too soon.Have you tried correcting the barking BEFORE she starts?When she alerts by tensing up and focusing on a person give an EH! and animate a tug or toy to give her something appropriate to do.Very short periods out front.


I agree with Dogma 100%

I'd like to add that Finn's trainer also told me that a lot of naughty puppy behavior is due to fatigue. He suggested crating during the day for a nap.

Eileen. I wouldn't return your pup without 1st having an evaluation.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> But in all fairness.... did you get your pup at 4 months and immediately have him in front of your house bombarded by strangers?
> 
> If the OP wants to keep the pup, I suggest she have someone 'hands on' evaluate the pup. If she can't/doesn't want to keep the pup, she should return her to the breeder.


I had my pup out in the world pretty immediately upon homecoming. I never saw her exhibit anything but happy confidence.

This behavior certainly looks fearful and reactive to me, and I find that unacceptable. I would not hesitate to return that puppy.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Same response as to WateryTart. If the OP wants to keep the pup, she should have it evaluated 'in person', not on the internet.


And I agree with you. IF the OP wants to keep this puppy, they should definitely have her evaluated. And they should definitely find a good trainer. Because this is not an issue that just goes away on it's own. Temperament issues require management. I just think the OP should be aware that this is a temperament issue.


----------



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies so far. I am torn between "a stable puppy should not react this way" and "she's only had 4 days to get used to things". I have had GSD puppies before and did not have these types of issues with them, although we lived in another home at that point with more room for them to run around so they never had to be so close to distractions on the other side of the fence. That being said however, I really don't think a new puppy should be THIS reactive to people and dogs walking by who are showing no interest in her at all.

And just to be clear, the breeder immediately offered to replace her as soon as we informed them about the problem. Unfortunately though this behavior has made me a little gun shy about taking another one of their puppies or really from taking any puppy at all at this point. We are very stressed out be this (and I'm sure the puppy is too!). I think we are going to try to work with her for another week or two just to see how things go but we're leaning towards returning her at this point. 

So far she has not been in the yard unsupervised at all. After the first time she reacted, she has only been in the yard on leash and I tried to keep her away from the fence but she still went crazy with the barking and lunging. I have worked with trainers before for my reactive GSDs. Two out of the four previous GSDs that I've had have had issues but they were both adolescent dogs. My husband and I swore that we would not go through that again. I loved those dogs to death but they were very difficult to manage.

After saying all this, I guess I'm trying to weigh out the benefits of trying to work with her a short time to see if there's any improvement or returning her immediately. I really want what's best for this dog as well as what's best for me and my husband.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

GypsyGhost said:


> A four month old puppy seeing strangers walk past a house is not "being bombarded" by strangers. A stable puppy with a solid temperament should be able to observe the world and not have a melt down.


The OP said, *"We live in a townhouse so we just have this small 10x10 grassy area in front of our house that is enclosed by a wrought iron fence. The fence just has posts so you can see through the bars and there is a sidewalk directly in front of the house that is very busy. There is also a school across the street so there are lots of little kids around all the time."

*VERY busy, across from school, lots of little kids all the time. I call that bombarded. Whatever. I'm done.

OP, I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> And I agree with you. IF the OP wants to keep this puppy, they should definitely have her evaluated. And they should definitely find a good trainer. Because this is not an issue that just goes away on it's own. Temperament issues require management. I just think the OP should be aware that this is a temperament issue.


Agreed.

This isn't going to go away. This is inherent. This is representative of who the puppy is and how it is wired. It won't just fix itself. Maybe it can be managed, maybe not. But this is who the puppy is.

I agree with whomever said to let the breeder deal with the consequences of their breeding decisions. It isn't right to put puppies with temperament issues out in the world and expect well meaning pet people to deal with them.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Bombarded, to me, is forcing your dog to interact with a ton of strangers. No stable dog should feel "bombarded" by people just walking by, no matter how many there are. They should be able to observe and not react. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to upset you @Stevenzachsmom. I just know from experience that this type of behavior is not fun to manage.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> The OP said, *"We live in a townhouse so we just have this small 10x10 grassy area in front of our house that is enclosed by a wrought iron fence. The fence just has posts so you can see through the bars and there is a sidewalk directly in front of the house that is very busy. There is also a school across the street so there are lots of little kids around all the time."
> 
> *VERY busy, across from school, lots of little kids all the time. I call that bombarded. Whatever. I'm done.
> 
> OP, I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.


Um...no. That's a normal neighborhood environment. In fact, I would call that fantastic for socializing a sound puppy. My puppy grew up in a flight path, on a busy street in the middle of Minneapolis, MN, in a house with a ton of windows. I spent a lot of time with her out in our front yard precisely for the neighborhood activity. No fear from that one. She looked up at the sky exactly once during her first few days home, when we were outside during a time with a lot of flight traffic.

I'm just laughing at the use of "bombard" in this context. It's hilarious to me. Sorry not sorry.


----------



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies so far. I am really not trying to cause any problems here.:smile2: I guess I'm trying to weigh out the benefits of trying to work with her a short time to see if there's any improvement or returning her immediately. I really want what's best for this dog as well as what's best for me and my husband. My opinion before posting this was that this is a reactive dog that should be returned but I know that I am gun shy having dealt with this before so I wanted to see if this was something normal that all owners deal with or if it sounds like an issue.

I am torn between "a stable puppy should not react this way" and "she's only had 4 days to get used to things". I have had GSD puppies before and did not have these types of issues with them, although we lived in another home at that point with more room for them to run around so they never had to be so close to distractions on the other side of the fence. That being said however, I really don't think a new puppy should be THIS reactive to people and dogs walking by who are showing no interest in her at all.

And just to be clear, the breeder immediately offered to replace her as soon as we informed them about the problem. Unfortunately though this behavior has made me a little nervous about taking another one of their puppies or really from taking any puppy at all at this point. We are very stressed out by this (and I'm sure the puppy is too!). I think we are going to try to work with her for another week or two just to see how things go but we're leaning towards returning her at this point. 

So far she has not been in the yard unsupervised at all. After the first time she reacted, she has only been in the yard on leash and I tried to keep her away from the fence but she still went crazy with the barking and lunging. I have worked with trainers before for my reactive GSDs. Two out of the four previous GSDs that I've had have had issues but they were both adolescent dogs. My husband and I swore that we would not go through that again. I loved those dogs to death but they were very difficult to manage.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

@;


WateryTart said:


> I had my pup out in the world pretty immediately upon homecoming. I never saw her exhibit anything but happy confidence.
> 
> This behavior certainly looks fearful and reactive to me, and I find that unacceptable. I would not hesitate to return that puppy.


Just by way of comparison, my puppy is 14 weeks now. We live on a very quiet street and our club is out in the country. So we took him downtown the other day for exposure to traffic, crowds, noise, different surfaces, etc.

He loved it! For him, it's all about the people. He wants to run to every human he sees and get some love. The traffic and noise, he completely ignored. He had his first elevator ride in the parking structure, again, no reaction. He had a truly wonderful time.

A weak nerved dog would have been miserable. Life is no fun for those poor creatures. I feel sorry for them and genuine rage towards the people who bring them into the world.

In case anyone is wondering about his super social temperament, he's in IPO and killing it in bite work. His grip is full, calm and incredibly hard. He'll be a very safe dog when he gets to sleeve work. He's also wonderfully chill in the house.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

zetti said:


> @;
> 
> Just by way of comparison, my puppy is 14 weeks now. We live on a very quiet street and our club is out in the country. So we took him downtown the other day for exposure to traffic, crowds, noise, different surfaces, etc.
> 
> ...


Agree completely. I have two GSDs... on a fearful, reactive mess (who is managed, by the way, but the management is not fun) and the other, a stable, solid girl. So I've lived with both sides of the coin, so to speak. It makes me sad that breeders inflict these nerve bags on people who just want a nice pet. It shouldn't be that way. No one should pay for a dog and then have to deal with this kind of behavior.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You have ALOT of conflict in opinions on this thead. Lots of 1 or 2 dog pet people and very few people who have had dozens of puppies. Some good observations and some very very bad ones that show the lack of knowledge and understanding of the posters.


I have had dozens of puppies. I have raised nearly a dozen litters.

If this was one of my litters - I would immediately say - RETURN the puppy. 

IF this is a genetically weak temperament - you are not experienced enough to deal with it. I believe it IS a genetically weak temperament. I also do not believe that your environment is the most ideal for a GSD as you describe it. This puppy would never have made it to you if it had been in the hands of a good responsible knowledgable breeder. You are setting yourself up for 10 +/- years of management and worry in my opinion.

Return the puppy. find a breeder with good solid nerved dogs. Ask yourself if you can truly provide the environment for a young GSD....can you provide the exercise, stimulation and training a puppy needs.


Sorry for the bluntness - some of the posts absolutely scared me!


Lee


----------



## Erica0629 (Dec 21, 2016)

Eileen Mertens said:


> He was from a GSD rescue association and we didn't get him until he was 1-1/2 years old though so we assumed that something had happened to him previously. We had to manage him so much that it was exhausting and we don't want to go through that again. It was actually our main motivation to getting a dog from a breeder this time.


I just wanted to get some clarification, you went through a breeder to get a new puppy without issues but you got a 4month old? Most people that go through a breeder get the puppy at 8 weeks or so. Was this dog one she had kept onto or one that was already sent back and being re-homed when you got him? 

I don't know if a few days is long enough to say that this puppy has a problem serious enough to send him back. I would think that you should give him some time to settle and work with him (which you do with any puppy) before making a decision. Maybe a little time could make a big difference with him feeling more comfortable and secure in his new home. 

It is not my situation however and you are the one living it, I hope that you can find some helpful information here to make things work or do what is best for the puppy and your family. You are doing the right thing by posting here to try to get help! I wish you all the best


----------



## brookwoodgirl (May 5, 2016)

So what this tells you is :
The puppy doesn't react to the sight of people with a run up for a kiss and love session but with stress based 'aggression' - while barking in itself is not necessarily aggression it's not kiss wriggle love.

That can be worked on.

The problem is you are going to have lots of foot traffic because of that school. And kids tease. And for a reactive dog this could be a real problem for it and you. 

So the question becomes is it worth it for you and the dog to fight this problem when temperamentally, due to your past experiences and this dog's behavior, it may be stressful and frustrating for you both?

If the breeder will take the dog back that might be best - because it seems to me that based on your history and preferences and your location, a more laid back dog would better suit.

If you decide to keep it I would not take the dog into the front unless it was tired and then have some one offer treats etc to help condition the dog that people are good. The school situation makes it more iffy, because kids will run by the fence and tease and that can develop into a problem.

Btw I've had half a dozen shepherds and some were love anyone and some were sharp but smart. While mine were never needlessly reactive, sharp ones do take more work and monitoring and it isn't wrong to consider your situation and how it fits with this dog. That is what responsible owners and breeders do. 

It is hard to recommend anything over the internet but it sounds like you do have some concerns/ second thoughts. Given the traffic and the school why not have that discussion with the breeder? Only you will know what is right for you and this puppy.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

How does the puppy react when you take her for a walk? To Lowes or Tractor Supply? Is this the only place she does this? What does she do if you have people over into your house?


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I~Luv~Maggie said:


> She may be territorial. You could try an E collar to correct the behavior, that has worked in the past for me. Never stop socializing her. The fact that she barks and lunges may be from a lack of socialization.


Do NOT put an ecollar on a 4 month old pup. 
This is not a problem to be solved online. Find a trainer in your area who is knowledgeable about the breed and get help.
This sounds like pretty classic fear behavior but without seeing it none of us here can know for sure. And your breeder does not seem helpful.


----------



## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Here's another question(s):

What drew you to this breeder? What about their program was enticing?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well,this certainly blew up in a hurry.OP,of course you have to do what's best for you and the puppy.None of can know the whole story without actually being there and we all are speaking from different experiences and perspectives.Which is a good thing!So you can start again and give it another week or two to let her settle in or make the tough decision that this puppy is a bad fit for your family.Having her evaluated is an excellent idea.Best of luck to you


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I would tell some people walking by to come inside and give the dog some treats. It's not the end of the world, it can be trained out of him. I hate it when people return pups, I know they have their reasons but I feel for the dog who thinks he has a home and then bam, they dont.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, let me be the next person to say please don't put an e collar on this pup. 

If you are willing to work on it, hire a competent trainer. Otherwise, return the pup asap.

I also wonder what the breeder was doing with this 4 month old. Why do they have that age? What did they do with it for 4 months if they did have it (as opposed to this pup already having been returned once)

Is the breeder a backyard breeder? If so that definitely supports the weak genetics theory and since you already said you don't want to do a lifetime of management again, return the pup, or consider surrendering it to a reputable breed rescue if the breeder was disreputable to begin with.


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

I stopped reading after 10 posts or so.... in which you've gotten fearful/reactive, stressed/overwhelmed, flexing her muscles, etc... bottom line - get a trainer out there to evaluate this pup in person.

In the meantime, take measures to prevent her from practicing the behavior.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I would tell some people walking by to come inside and give the dog some treats. It's not the end of the world, it can be trained out of him. I hate it when people return pups, I know they have their reasons but I feel for the dog who thinks he has a home and then bam, they dont.


Doing this to an already fearful, reactive dog is actually not the best idea. if a dog is reacting to people merely walking by, having people approach is not going to go well. And you can't train out genetics. You can only manage this kind of behavior.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> You have ALOT of conflict in opinions on this thead. Lots of 1 or 2 dog pet people and very few people who have had dozens of puppies. Some good observations and some very very bad ones that show the lack of knowledge and understanding of the posters.
> 
> 
> I have had dozens of puppies. I have raised nearly a dozen litters.
> ...


You are not alone. I'm finding some postings alarming as well. ITA that this is a nervebag of a pup who needs experienced handling by someone who wants a project.


----------



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

I am going to try to respond again. I've tried to post a couple of responses already but they didn't seem to go through. I apologize if you suddenly get "bombarded" by my posts. 

*** Your first 3 posts are moderated. That is why they appeared to not go through. They are there now. 

ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To the OP: follow your heart and not what others may say or what you should do. Having a GSD requires a lot and especially from your heart. On the other hand, I am sure we all had times that we wanted to return the monster to where ever it came from.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This is a 4 month old puppy that you have had for 4 days. You live in a very busy stimuli heavy area that is overwhelming this puppy. This puppy doesn't know you. He probably didn't come from a situation with this much constant stimulus. In different hands and in a different situation this pup might be entirely fine or if raised this way. You have two options, find a trainer that knows what they are doing or return the pup if you feel overwhelmed. I, personally, would probably return the pup and go with a younger pup that can grow up in that environment. I would probably also avoid lines that tend towards a lower threshold for defense, pups that show suspicion early on. 

Just the opinion of someone that has trained, worked and lived with working dogs for over 30 years.  Pups at this age can go through some funky stages when sold and moved into a new situation.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I was not going to post but after reading all the posts to you I have to speak up. You don't know if the puppy is a nervebag yet or not. Yes, it sounds like it, but you got the dog at 4 months. What did the breeder do with it up until then? Was it socialized dogs, people and traffic, or is this a first experience with any kind of commotion and stress?

Your front yard is your property. It is a place where a dog should feel safe. Your dog doesn't. Your dog is confused by all the commotion. It may not be the sights but the noises. Since you know the breeder will take the dog back, ask if you can have a month to find and work with a good behaviorist in your home. Then if you haven't seen extreme improvement, return the dog. If you do, I suggest waiting and getting a dog from another litter at 8 weeks so you can start exposure gradually from a younger age. Or find a better breeder, because at 4 months, the breeder should have already trained for and addressed behaviors like this.

Is this a WL dog? My WL had some health problems that resulted in less socialization at a young age than I wanted and resulted in some unwanted barking and hackling. I began working with a private trainer because I couldn't consistently get to a class. One trainer said just what is being said here, Your dog is a nervebag. But I know shepherds and I saw him in different situations where he was calm and composed. So, I guessed it was more confusion than nerves. I found a better trainer. I looked at 6 trainers before settling on the one we use now. The new trainer is experienced with WL dogs, evaluated my dog, had hands on him for 2 hours, and told me I have a very high drive, intense dog (breeder said he was medium drive), and he was confused. Just what I thought all along! I gave him a lot of exposure and he is fine now.

I have done dog rescue, and sometimes a dog needs a 2 weeks shutdown in the home. This puppy doesn't need one inside, but may need more exposure away from your property and for now, keep him out of the front yard. If you do that and he is good everywhere else, you will know it's just situational, and then you have to decide if you can use your front yard the same way other people use a back yard. 

If you don't want to deal with this, then return him. I don't think anyone should have a dog they are afraid to take anywhere.


----------



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

Thanks Lisa for explaining that my first posts are moderated!

It sounds like some people are saying that 4 months is too old for a puppy. Is 8 weeks the typical age to get a puppy? It seems so young to me but clearly I have a lot to learn about choosing a puppy.

As far as I know, the puppy was not socialized outside of the breeders home. Adults, kids and dogs came over to visit but I don't think the puppy ever left the house except for trips to the vet. I was told that was the only time that she had been in a car. She hadn't been on a leash before either and the breeder is in a much more rural area. So all in all, I'm sure this was a huge shock to her system. However, it seems like an 8 week old puppy would have the same issues?

This is a show line dog. I cannot find any negative information online about this breeder and many people seem to really like them (including on this forum). I really had high hopes for this puppy and agree that she may do well in another environment. If I decide to keep her, I would definitely have her evaluated.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I will be the unpopular one. How do you think this NEW puppy feels with all those people and all that noise when it is at its most vulnerable doing its business?


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Any other thread, the two week shutdown is highly touted. But not in this thread?


----------



## Thanos Stadium (Jan 24, 2017)

My best recommendation would be socializing your dog with other people it has not met before. If your dog is male has he been fixed? This can decrease aggressive behaviors in dogs.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Thanos Stadium said:


> My best recommendation would be socializing your dog with other people it has not met before. If your dog is male has he been fixed? This can decrease aggressive behaviors in dogs.


He's only 4 mos old and neutering isn't an aggression cure. A lot of new studies out there on this.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not going to read through the thread. You have a puppy being a bonehead for reason that are really unknown to any of us. Your description may, or may not, be an accurate description. What's reactive to an inexperienced person is just puppy boneheadedness to another. And who knows what behavior was allowed for the last 16 weeks.

You have two choices....
1. Return the puppy.
2. Get a trainer who is knowledgeable about the breed and possibly the lines your pup comes from.

Do NOT put an ecollar on that puppy. That's horrid advice. And do not neuter your 4 month old puppy.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> Any other thread, the two week shutdown is highly touted. But not in this thread?


Maybe I'm being too narrow in focus, but I use a shutdown indoors when a dog is overwhelmed by people or other pets or just being in a new home and is acting up indoors. I don't use it for a yard. I use it for fosters or adopted rescues. I haven't used it for a young puppy. I suppose I could call it a shutdown from the yard. I would act as if it was an apartment with no yard and take the dog somewhere else to pee.


----------



## jadelady (May 28, 2016)

Not sure you can use an e collar on a pup but I would like to share my story with you in hopes that there is a light to the end of your tunnel. When I brought Jade home as an 8 week pup, I was ready to bring her back to the breeder two weeks later. Even cried about it. She bit me all the time barked in my face pretty much drove me nuts. Now I know lots of this was typical pup play but I just could not get a handle on it. I signed her up for pup classes and worked with her every day. We even went to a terrible teens class. Things were going ok when Jade stared to lung and go crazy on cars when they rode by. She then started showing major aggression towards other dogs. I could not handle her on ours walk so we signed her up for reactive dog classes. 8 weeks and no improvement. I was beside myself. Then I came across a wonderful man who did private lessons for difficult dogs. He used an e collar on Jade and trained her. So blessed to say she is so much better. I can walk her and she doesn't even bother with cars or dogs. I didn't want to use the e collar but after spending over $1000 in dog classes with no results and heading for a nervous break down, I'm glad I gave it a try. I will never trust Jade around other dogs but I can control her now. She listens to me. I hope you will find your way with your pup. I truly never thought I would get to where I am with Jade but we are good. Jade's mom


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thanos Stadium said:


> My best recommendation would be socializing your dog with other people it has not met before. If your dog is male has he been fixed? This can decrease aggressive behaviors in dogs.


Are you positive from the description that the dog is aggressive? I'm not. It might just be scared or confused or flooded. That is a myth about neutering and doesn't apply to this situation. It can create far worse problems to neuter before the dog is full grown and then it would not eliminate true aggression.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

jadelady said:


> Not sure you can use an e collar on a pup but I would like to share my story with you in hopes that there is a light to the end of your tunnel. When I brought Jade home as an 8 week pup, I was ready to bring her back to the breeder two weeks later. Even cried about it. She bit me all the time barked in my face pretty much drove me nuts. Now I know lots of this was typical pup play but I just could not get a handle on it. I signed her up for pup classes and worked with her every day. We even went to a terrible teens class. Things were going ok when Jade stared to lung and go crazy on cars when they rode by. She then started showing major aggression towards other dogs. I could not handle her on ours walk so we signed her up for reactive dog classes. 8 weeks and no improvement. I was beside myself. Then I came across a wonderful man who did private lessons for difficult dogs. He used an e collar on Jade and trained her. So blessed to say she is so much better. I can walk her and she doesn't even bother with cars or dogs. I didn't want to use the e collar but after spending over $1000 in dog classes with no results and heading for a nervous break down, I'm glad I gave it a try. I will never trust Jade around other dogs but I can control her now. She listens to me. I hope you will find your way with your pup. I truly never thought I would get to where I am with Jade but we are good. Jade's mom


How old was your dog when you started using an e collar? I have been trained in how when to use them and this puppy is too young. You let it escalate because you didn't know what to do, and left yourself few options. This puppy is young and can be trained without an e collar.


----------



## jadelady (May 28, 2016)

My dog was two years old when we started an e collar. I know that our trainer does not use e collars on the pups in his classes. I should say he is a retired k -9 police officer. He is amazing.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

jadelady said:


> My dog was two years old when we started an e collar. I know that our trainer does not use e collars on the pups in his classes. I should say he is a retired k -9 police officer. He is amazing.


A dog that is allowed to act like yours did for two years needs something to disrupt the pattern. A baby puppy doesn't.


----------



## jadelady (May 28, 2016)

I'm so sorry , I was not suggesting she use an e collar on a pup. I just want to share my struggles.


----------



## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

I read a lot on this forum about lack of socialization and over socialization. " I did not expose the puppy to enough" and "the puppy was taken everywhere and met everybody and now..."

With this pup and an unknown history both scenarios are possible. The pup could have been in a kennel for four months and that school across the road could be too much to soon. They are very noisy active places a few times a day! Cars, buses, kids, adults, loud bells, screaming, yelling, laughing etc etc. and in mass too. So I see the potential for both applying to this pup.

In the comments I see a lot of, it is the dog, bad genetics, back to the breeder. So socialization or lack there of is being taken out of the equation.

Can someone explain this to me?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

jadelady said:


> I'm so sorry , I was not suggesting she use an e collar on a pup. I just want to share my struggles.


And you are to be commended for taking the lead and continuing to get better training with each problem that occurred. Thank you for sharing your story.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

jadelady said:


> I'm so sorry , I was not suggesting she use an e collar on a pup. I just want to share my struggles.


I am hoping she can find a good trainer who can keep the problem from escalating and can turn it around now. If it's not done early, it becomes permanent. A good trainer can evaluate whether it's fixable or not.


----------



## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

GypsyGhost said:


> Bombarded, to me, is forcing your dog to interact with a ton of strangers. No stable dog should feel "bombarded" by people just walking by, no matter how many there are. They should be able to observe and not react. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to upset you @Stevenzachsmom. I just know from experience that this type of behavior is not fun to manage.



We have a new dog, 14 months old, and we have a small fenced in yard. The road in front is moderately busy, with adults kids, neighbor dogs, and even a group of cows that go up and down the road every day to their pasture.At first, our girl ran out to the fence and barked wildly. After a few barks, I told her that was enough. Now, she still runs out to look and alerts us with one or two barks. I consider that "normal" balanced behavior. If she went ballistic every time, I would also wonder about her temperament, as the OP is experiencing.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> We have a new dog, 14 months old, and we have a small fenced in yard. The road in front is moderately busy, with adults kids, neighbor dogs, and even a group of cows that go up and down the road every day to their pasture.At first, our girl ran out to the fence and barked wildly. After a few barks, I told her that was enough. Now, she still runs out to look and alerts us with one or two barks. I consider that "normal" balanced behavior. If she went ballistic every time, I would also wonder about her temperament, as the OP is experiencing.


It's awesome that you have been able to turn your new girl around!

I worry about this particular dog being genetically fearful mostly because of the age. I sincerely hope that if the OP decides they don't want to go down the reactivity/fear road, that they don't feel bad about that decision. And I hope that if they do decide to keep this dog, they find a trainer that can help them manage this problem quickly.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Eileen, 4 months isn't a bad age, but sometimes can be a difficult age for a puppy to change homes. Depends on the puppy and their genetic makeup. Your puppy may be fearful or it may be overwhelmed. The fact that the pup hadn't seen much at 4 months does suggest a pup that is under exposed and overwhelmed. No one on this board can determine what is really going on without seeing and spending time with the pup. 

It is up to you how you want to move forward. IF you go with a trainer, find one that actually understands the breed.


----------



## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

cloudpump said:


> Any other thread, the two week shutdown is highly touted. But not in this thread?


I wondered that as well. My new girl was on a two week shutdown, and it was so good for her. She was not packed up in the car and taken to all the friend's houses or the local hardware store, etc. She clearly knows that this is her house, we are her people, and she can look to us for food, water, affection, and leadership.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Any other thread, the two week shutdown is highly touted. But not in this thread?


LOL ... well ... I suppose ... that's "my" call??? 

Asked and answered ... op see the first link here ... consider your puppy a "Rescue" and this is how it would be done. See the first link ... I got more but since the "question" was asked. And as to proper, Solicitation and "Solicitation vs Exposure" well that is there also ie "Who Pets ... and if you look you will see ...it is very similar to the "Five Golden Rules ..." :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

How about this....
Put a leash on the pup, open the front porch gate and walk in and out of the front yard/porch area. Stand with the pup on the sidewalk right outside of the fenced area and wait until people walk by, see how he reacts, then walk inside the fenced area just inside of the sidewalk and do the same. The hope being to neutralize the pup to that specific territory, feed treats in both areas, do this for 5 minutes going in and out. I think this method should help somewhat, take a short walk down the block, stop in front of your house and keep doing the prior exercise. I would be interested to know the results.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Julian G said:


> How about this....
> Put a leash on the pup, open the front porch gate and walk in and out of the front yard/porch area. Stand with the pup on the sidewalk right outside of the fenced area and wait until people walk by, see how he reacts, then walk inside the fenced area just inside of the sidewalk and do the same. The hope being to neutralize the pup to that specific territory, feed treats in both areas, do this for 5 minutes going in and out. I think this method should help somewhat, take a short walk down the block, stop in front of your house and keep doing the prior exercise. I would be interested to know the results.


Great idea. And by keeping the pup busy and engaged with you, he doesn't get the time to focus on whatever is around and learning to gradually accept it as back ground noise. And yes, frequent, very short sessions with you in a happy, upbeat mood. I would try this for about two weeks and then maybe decide what to do?


----------



## lytrefry (Oct 20, 2016)

I know it is hard to get an older puppy! Either way you will have to teach a puppy right from wrong. She might need a little work in that area but could be great in others!

We adopted a 5 month old female gsd dog recently. She was terrified of everything! Aggressive with my daughter. We couldn't even touch her. She was raised inside a kennel without much human contact. Now four months later she is one of the best dogs I've ever had. She is wonderful with my daughter. No longer afraid. It took a lot of patience and time, but totally worth it in the end! 
I'd definitely give it some time if I were you and see how she settles!


----------



## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

I got my rescue pup when she was 5 months old. The first few days she barked maniacally at the wheelbarrow and the BBQ, because that is exciting as my yard gets!! I think in your situation, she might have had a complete meltdown but I had the luxury of introducing her to the outside world very slowly. 
I too have lived with a dog aggressive dog and know how much management that takes and fully appreciate that you don't want to do that again.
My pup was put into rescue at 4 months because the family knew that she wasn't the dog for them ( no returning to the breeder because my pups breeding is very dubious) but she is the dog for us. 
You can take advice from the internet and I would advise seeing a behaviourist because none of us are there to accurately judge the situation but at the end of the day, you are the one taking on a 10 plus years commitment.


----------



## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

I would give the puppy back. It clearly has genetic issues. That type of thing can be managed through training but the thing is it will always have to be managed and be an extra burden. PErhaps something happened that caused this maybe he was left out there and teased through the fence i dont know but if not i wouldnt want to get attached to the pup


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Great idea. And by keeping the pup busy and engaged with you, he doesn't get the time to focus on whatever is around and learning to gradually accept it as back ground noise. And yes, frequent, very short sessions with you in a happy, upbeat mood. I would try this for about two weeks and then maybe decide what to do?


Yes, I absolutely HATE the idea of giving up on a 4 month old pup just because you hit a few bumps in the road. I think this method should slowly begin to work, they can even stand on the sidewalk just in front of the house and have people pet and play with the pup, even feed a few treats (not too much). The pup will learn what is normal behavior and what isn't. Two weeks of doing this for 5 minute sessions a few times a day should end this behavior.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Yes, I absolutely HATE the idea of giving up on a 4 month old pup just because you hit a few bumps in the road. I think this method should slowly begin to work, they can even stand on the sidewalk just in front of the house and have people pet and play with the pup, even feed a few treats (not too much). The pup will learn what is normal behavior and what isn't. Two weeks of doing this for 5 minute sessions a few times a day should end this behavior.


I think you are missing the point a little. The OP said that she has already dealt with dogs that had issues in the past, and did not want to do it again. There is no shame in that. She specifically said she went to a breeder this time around to avoid having to work through these types of issues. The puppy that she got does not appear to meet her requirements. The breeder seemed open to the idea of taking the puppy back, so I really don't see an issue here.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

And also, I feel the need to add again that forcing a reactive puppy to let strangers pet her is a bad idea. I don't know if you've ever worked with a reactive dog, but this does not teach them that everything is ok. This teaches them that you will not protect them. This is how behavior escalates. This is how fear biters are made.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

lhczth said:


> Eileen, 4 months isn't a bad age, but sometimes can be a difficult age for a puppy to change homes. Depends on the puppy and their genetic makeup. Your puppy may be fearful or it may be overwhelmed. The fact that the pup hadn't seen much at 4 months does suggest a pup that is under exposed and overwhelmed. No one on this board can determine what is really going on without seeing and spending time with the pup.
> 
> It is up to you how you want to move forward. IF you go with a trainer, find one that actually understands the breed.


Just repeating Lisa's advice, because I think it is the best and makes the most sense.


----------



## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Yes, I absolutely HATE the idea of giving up on a 4 month old pup just because you hit a few bumps in the road. I think this method should slowly begin to work, they can even stand on the sidewalk just in front of the house and have people pet and play with the pup, even feed a few treats (not too much). The pup will learn what is normal behavior and what isn't. Two weeks of doing this for 5 minute sessions a few times a day should end this behavior.


I wouldn't call a dog with clear genetic issues hitting a few bumps in the road. If OP is going went with a breeder they wanted a dog that will have good nerves and a stable temperament. Supporting a garbage breeder like this will only lead to them producing more dogs with genetic issues. Especially when the breeders advice was to "not let the dog bark like that" next thing they will say is the OP just didnt socialize the dog enough. While forcing and luring the dog to being touched by strangers is a recipe for a bite.

Go to a quality breeder and support a good program that will add to the betterment of our breed not one that will cause further degradation to it.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

And over the internet we can see there are definite genetic issues? There is a description of what happens. Not an assessment by a trainer. 
We are still going off a post of a 4 mos old dog that only had been at a house for 4 days. No extra details. No answers to questions.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Even breeders checking off all the right boxes probably have an occasional pup with issues. This breeder sounds as though they're cooperating with the op at this point, no reason to bash them.


----------



## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Even breeders checking off all the right boxes probably have an occasional pup with issues. This breeder sounds as though they're cooperating with the op at this point, no reason to bash them.


Thats true but if that would happen you would expect the breeder to place the dog with someone that knows what they are getting and on a strict spay/neuter contract. Not give the dog to someone who went to a breeder specifically to avoid this type of dog. Its true i dont know exactly what the breeder is doing or the puppy without seeing it in person but i know what my dog was like as a puppy and what stable dogs should be like and that does not sound like it. sounds like OP can recognize reactivity since they've dealt with it before and are on their 5th gsd.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> I think you are missing the point a little. The OP said that she has already dealt with dogs that had issues in the past, and did not want to do it again. There is no shame in that. She specifically said she went to a breeder this time around to avoid having to work through these types of issues. The puppy that she got does not appear to meet her requirements. The breeder seemed open to the idea of taking the puppy back, so I really don't see an issue here.





girardid said:


> I wouldn't call a dog with clear genetic issues hitting a few bumps in the road. If OP is going went with a breeder they wanted a dog that will have good nerves and a stable temperament. Supporting a garbage breeder like this will only lead to them producing more dogs with genetic issues. Especially when the breeders advice was to "not let the dog bark like that" next thing they will say is the OP just didnt socialize the dog enough. While forcing and luring the dog to being touched by strangers is a recipe for a bite.
> 
> Go to a quality breeder and support a good program that will add to the betterment of our breed not one that will cause further degradation to it.


Fence barking at strangers is not the end of the world. No dog is perfect, OP can do what he/she wants. All I'm saying is; If this is the only problem, it can be trained out of him. I offered some ideas on what they can do to "neutralize" that territory. The breeder will most likely cull the pup or drop it in a shelter. I'm trying to save him. Actually, I like a territorial pup. 
PS. I don't know if this breeder is a BYB or a garbage breeder or whatever, I'm simply looking out for the dog. Can't blame me for that.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> And over the internet we can see there are definite genetic issues? There is a description of what happens. Not an assessment by a trainer.
> We are still going off a post of a 4 mos old dog that only had been at a house for 4 days. No extra details. No answers to questions.


Exactly!!! All I know so far is the dog barks and lunges at strangers approaching his territory. Umm, last time I checked, GSD's are known to be territorial and many see this as a strong protective trait. Over time he will learn who is a threat and who isn't. Maybe this pup has that active aggression that's rare and what many are looking for.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Exactly!!! All I know so far is the dog barks and lunges at strangers approaching his territory. Umm, last time I checked, GSD's are known to be territorial and many see this as a strong protective trait. Over time he will learn who is a threat and who isn't. Maybe this pup has that active aggression that's rare and what many are looking for.


This baby dog has only been there for FOUR DAYS. In this puppy's mind, it is not home and that is not its territory.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> And over the internet we can see there are definite genetic issues? There is a description of what happens. Not an assessment by a trainer.
> We are still going off a post of a 4 mos old dog that only had been at a house for 4 days. No extra details. No answers to questions.


Unfortunately the OP hasn't been back since yesterday. I hope she is consulting a trainer. If I was new here and looking for advice, I would be more confused than comforted by the wild extremes in this thread.


----------



## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

Julian G said:


> The breeder will most likely cull the pup or drop it in a shelter. I'm trying to save him. Actually, I like a territorial pup.
> PS. I don't know if this breeder is a BYB or a garbage breeder or whatever, I'm simply looking out for the dog. Can't blame me for that.





Julian G said:


> Maybe this pup has that active aggression that's rare and what many are looking for.


No way that this puppy is stable enough to show that kind of forward aggression at this age... hackles up and going berzerk on people outside the fence that young is clearly a fear base display. This pup also wouldn't be territorial like that on it fourth day of living in a new place. 

It's nice that you are looking out for the dog and completely agree that this can be trained and managed but if im going to a breeder i want a stable dog that will work with me not one that i have to try to fix genetic issues with and manage for the rest of his life. If its not a poor breeder then they should be fine about taking the dog back and if it is a poor breeder the TS if i wanted a rescue project dog id get one directly from a shelter. Buying from a breeder like that sure may be saving that dog but its only supporting that breeding practice and creating more problematic dogs. Again that's a lot of assumptions about the breeder but the deal with the dog is pretty clear. If OP cant recognize reactivity get the dog evaluated and make a decision based on that


----------



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> The OP said, *"We live in a townhouse so we just have this small 10x10 grassy area in front of our house that is enclosed by a wrought iron fence. The fence just has posts so you can see through the bars and there is a sidewalk directly in front of the house that is very busy. There is also a school across the street so there are lots of little kids around all the time."
> 
> *VERY busy, across from school, lots of little kids all the time. I call that bombarded. Whatever. I'm done.
> 
> OP, I wish you all the best, whatever you decide.


This pup has only been in your home for 4 days. That, by itself, is stressful as he was taken from his littermates. A school yard with lots of kids IS a stressful environment for a lot of dogs....kids tend to scream and squeal (not pleasant for many dogs, regardless of dog's age). Perhaps you will decide that the pup does have a temperament problem but I think you have thrown him into the most awful scenario and expects him to display nerves of steel. He is still a baby. Glad you are willing to give him a little time. Focus on quiet, calm environment. Walk him through quiet neighborhoods and allow him to just relax a little and get used to you. He doesn't know you yet so he doesn't know he can trust you to protect him. I have two GSD's who are almost 3 years old. Both have great temperament and nothing rattles them EXCEPT...........one of my boys does NOT like to hear kids squeal....it sends him to the moon! A school yard full of squealing kids is an extreme stimuli for many dogs (and humans)! Good luck......provide a safe, quiet, low-stimuli environment for him and slowly work up to increased noise/action.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Jake and Elwood. I've been wondering how you were doing!!!!


----------



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I've been MIA for a while but now enjoying getting back into the routine.


----------



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to respond. I have not been posting a lot because my posts were (are?) being moderated so they don't show up for a few hours and by then there are a lot more posts/questions/comments and mine were getting lost in the shuffle.

I did not want anyone to diagnose my puppy over the internet. I was trying to figure out if I was way off base in considering returning her. There seem to be many "is this normal" type of posts in this forum and that's what I was trying to determine. I have not had a puppy this young for a while.

We are returning the puppy to the breeder today. I think she is reactive but I also understand that it could be my home environment. Either way, I don't think that it is a good fit. I am not up to working with another reactive dog right now and clearly I would have to get a trainer out here right away if I was going to keep her. And if it's this environment, then I don't want her to be stressed out here when she could do well in another, less busy area. She is a beautiful puppy and I want what's best for her. 

Thanks again for all of your help.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Eileen Mertens said:


> I did not want anyone to diagnose my puppy over the internet. I was trying to figure out if I was way off base in considering returning her. There seem to be many "is this normal" type of posts in this forum and that's what I was trying to determine. I have not had a puppy this young for a while.
> 
> We are returning the puppy to the breeder today. I think she is reactive but I also understand that it could be my home environment. Either way, I don't think that it is a good fit. I am not up to working with another reactive dog right now and clearly I would have to get a trainer out here right away if I was going to keep her. And if it's this environment, then I don't want her to be stressed out here when she could do well in another, less busy area. She is a beautiful puppy and I want what's best for her.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help.


I think your decision is indeed what is best for both the pup and you.

However, I don't think it is a matter of how many "for" and "against" returning posts were made....but even given that you came to a logical conclusion.

Good luck finding a breeder who will work with you to get suitable pup for your lifestyle and environment! 


Lee


----------



## Squeaky (Nov 10, 2016)

Eileen Mertens said:


> We are returning the puppy to the breeder today. I think she is reactive but I also understand that it could be my home environment. Either way, I don't think that it is a good fit. I am not up to working with another reactive dog right now and clearly I would have to get a trainer out here right away if I was going to keep her. And if it's this environment, then I don't want her to be stressed out here when she could do well in another, less busy area. She is a beautiful puppy and I want what's best for her.


It's your 5th gsd! After getting different opinions, trust your own feeling and judgement, I am SURE you will find a breeder who will get you a better match.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Eileen Mertens said:


> Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to respond. I have not been posting a lot because my posts were (are?) being moderated so they don't show up for a few hours and by then there are a lot more posts/questions/comments and mine were getting lost in the shuffle.
> 
> I did not want anyone to diagnose my puppy over the internet. I was trying to figure out if I was way off base in considering returning her. There seem to be many "is this normal" type of posts in this forum and that's what I was trying to determine. I have not had a puppy this young for a while.
> 
> ...


Best of luck to you. I know this had to be a tough decision. I hope you are able to find what you are looking for. There are puppies out there that would thrive in your situation.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm sorry you had to make such a difficult decision. I'm not a breeder so I can only speculate about how I would feel, but I know I would care deeply about all of my puppies, and if a client wasn't completely in love with their new puppy or didn't feel like their home was the right fit, I would much rather have that puppy come back to me. I hope that the next puppy is the right one, should you choose to try again.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Eileen Mertens said:


> Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to respond. I have not been posting a lot because my posts were (are?) being moderated so they don't show up for a few hours and by then there are a lot more posts/questions/comments and mine were getting lost in the shuffle.
> 
> I did not want anyone to diagnose my puppy over the internet. I was trying to figure out if I was way off base in considering returning her. There seem to be many "is this normal" type of posts in this forum and that's what I was trying to determine. I have not had a puppy this young for a while.
> 
> ...


I just want you to know that EVERY pup will have his/her issues that need to be worked on. No puppy comes perfect right out of the box. Good luck to you and the pup.


----------



## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

sebrench said:


> I'm sorry you had to make such a difficult decision. I'm not a breeder so I can only speculate about how I would feel, but I know I would care deeply about all of my puppies, and if a client wasn't completely in love with their new puppy or didn't feel like their home was the right fit, I would much rather have that puppy come back to me. I hope that the next puppy is the right one, should you choose to try again.


I think any good breeder would feel this way. It should always be about finding a forever home for the pups. That's why with every breed I've ever had I can never imagine how people can go to craigslist or backyard breeders asking half the value of a given breed. It just always feels to me like it's about a quick buck over making sure the home and puppy are a good fit for each other. It's also why you always see so many super sad - "Looking for a home for my 3 year old GSD, he's always hopping our fence and my neighbors are threatening to shoot him. He's out of control and I can't make him listen to me." types of posts. There's a pup for everyone out there, and there's a home out there for every pup. Just have to find the right match!


----------



## Squeaky (Nov 10, 2016)

Julian G said:


> I just want you to know that EVERY pup will have his/her issues that need to be worked on. No puppy comes perfect right out of the box. Good luck to you and the pup.


It's op's 5th gsd, and op has dealt with one with aggression issue in the past.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> I just want you to know that EVERY pup will have his/her issues that need to be worked on. No puppy comes perfect right out of the box. Good luck to you and the pup.


Every puppy will need to be taught things, of course, and there may be stumbles along the way... but dealing with reactivity is a whole different world. I don't think you understand the level of management that is involved with a lot of these dogs.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> Every puppy will need to be taught things, of course, and there may be stumbles along the way... but dealing with reactivity is a whole different world. I don't think you understand the level of management that is involved with a lot of these dogs.


Oh, I do. I have had a terribly dog aggressive GSD before. It was tough, but I never gave up on her. That's just how I am. I'm just going to leave it at that, this thread has run its course.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Julian G said:


> I just want you to know that EVERY pup will have his/her issues that need to be worked on. No puppy comes perfect right out of the box. Good luck to you and the pup.


This is incredibly rude, condescending, and unhelpful. I hope the OP and others know to give your input all the consideration it deserves.


----------



## Erica0629 (Dec 21, 2016)

I hope that you don't use the same breeder again if you try down the road with another puppy. This site is a great resource to help you find a reputable breeder who will help you guys find a much better match!


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Oh, I do. I have had a terribly dog aggressive GSD before. It was tough, but I never gave up on her. That's just how I am. I'm just going to leave it at that, this thread has run its course.


Just because you decided to work with a DA dog doesn't mean that's right for everyone. I have a fear reactive (to both dogs and humans) male GSD and I can see easily how he would not be something most people want to deal with. Try not to judge someone so much just because you think you would keep this puppy. It's not very helpful.


----------



## Eileen Mertens (Feb 20, 2017)

Please don't argue on my behalf. 

In the past I would have also said that I would never give up on a dog so I understand where Julian is coming from. However, I know how crazy dealing with a reactive dog made me, my husband and the dog and I know that I'm not up for it again. I also know that this breeder wants what is best for the dog. The immediate response we got from the breeder was to bring her back if we were having issues with her. If I didn't feel that returning her to the breeder was going to result in a better situation for my puppy, I wouldn't do it.

I appreciate all the passion that everyone here has for GSDs!


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Good for you for recognizing and putting the puppies needs first. Do some research and find the right breeder that has the right puppy for your situation. Austeritz German Shepherds uses Puppy Culture to raise their litters. You can check out Puppy Culture's Facebook page and website. I believe there is a place where breeders that do the protocol are listed by breed. It is a great way to start puppies on the road to success for the rest of their lives. You can also purchase DVD's to do as well.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Eileen Mertens said:


> Please don't argue on my behalf.
> 
> In the past I would have also said that I would never give up on a dog so I understand where Julian is coming from. However, I know how crazy dealing with a reactive dog made me, my husband and the dog and I know that I'm not up for it again. I also know that this breeder wants what is best for the dog. The immediate response we got from the breeder was to bring her back if we were having issues with her. If I didn't feel that returning her to the breeder was going to result in a better situation for my puppy, I wouldn't do it.
> 
> I appreciate all the passion that everyone here has for GSDs!


I just have one more question for you, just because I'm curious (maybe I missed it in the thread). How is was the dog behaving on walks? Did she bark at people, cars, cats, squirrels? I'm just trying to get a sense of what people consider to be reactive, because I've had dogs that exhibited similar behavior and I never really took it too serious. I guess that's just my philosophy, I was never a very strict owner.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Eileen Mertens said:


> Please don't argue on my behalf.
> 
> In the past I would have also said that I would never give up on a dog so I understand where Julian is coming from. However, I know how crazy dealing with a reactive dog made me, my husband and the dog and I know that I'm not up for it again. I also know that this breeder wants what is best for the dog. The immediate response we got from the breeder was to bring her back if we were having issues with her. If I didn't feel that returning her to the breeder was going to result in a better situation for my puppy, I wouldn't do it.
> 
> I appreciate all the passion that everyone here has for GSDs!


Good for you for being rational and mature. I wish you all the best. I hope you are able to find a breeder that can give you the right pup for your needs.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

We all started out as novices and we all learn from our experiences. I admire the OP for putting the family and the dog first so everyone will be happy, including the pup.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Enough bickering. Half the time I feel like a parent traveling with kids. "Mom, he is on my side. NO I'm not. Mom, he touched me. No I didn't". Agree to disagree and move on instead of dragging out differences of opinion for pages and pages. They are not helpful to the OP and they just make the board down right unpleasant for anyone else. 

I, yet again, removed some OT bickering posts that had nothing to do with helping the OP. If there was anything helpful in the post, it was deleted too. Sorry. 

Thank you,
ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I think there's a difference in DA, HA, and fear aggressive (I think dogs can be DA or HA on their own without it being a fear response). I had a DA dog. It was really not a big deal in public. Managing their environment was 90 percent of the battle.

Having a fear reactive dog can be a lifelong struggle. That's really not what you sign up for when getting a puppy. Puppies are hard enough as it is!


----------



## lytrefry (Oct 20, 2016)

I hope you find a puppy that is perfect for you and your family! Good luck!!!


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Eileen Mertens said:


> Please don't argue on my behalf.
> 
> In the past I would have also said that I would never give up on a dog so I understand where Julian is coming from. However, I know how crazy dealing with a reactive dog made me, my husband and the dog and I know that I'm not up for it again. I also know that this breeder wants what is best for the dog. The immediate response we got from the breeder was to bring her back if we were having issues with her. If I didn't feel that returning her to the breeder was going to result in a better situation for my puppy, I wouldn't do it.
> 
> I appreciate all the passion that everyone here has for GSDs!


Don't worry, arguments can start over nothing. It's not your fault. If you need help finding another dog or making a decision, just ask.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> I think there's a difference in DA, HA, and fear aggressive (I think dogs can be DA or HA on their own without it being a fear response). I had a DA dog. It was really not a big deal in public. Managing their environment was 90 percent of the battle.
> 
> Having a fear reactive dog can be a lifelong struggle. That's really not what you sign up for when getting a puppy. Puppies are hard enough as it is!


OP made there call ... done and over. No judgement here. Although ... I tend to think that "front yard" deal could be an issue for any puppy??? As I have never had to deal with it ... I have no idea??? 

But as to "Having a fear reactive dog being being a lifelong struggle??" That sounds "depressing???" I can't imagine an owner facing a "lifetime of that as an outlook???" That sounds ... depressing??? 

I've only dealt with one "truly fear of people issue dog." And I treated him the same as I always do. I kept people out of his face .. did "Sit on the Dog" and the dog seemed to understand that I had his back. 

Ah well at anyrate ... if one starts with a dog/puppy with issues ... with the proper approach ... they can have a "dog" that is easily "manageable." You just wouldn't have a "never give the dog a second thought kinda dog??? 

No big deal but a lot different than thinking one is facing a "lifetime of struggle." Least ways ... that's how "we" roll.


----------

