# Is my trainer crazy?



## staceyc842 (Oct 10, 2013)

Our GSD, maverick, is now 8 months old. He's been developing a bit of dominant/aggressive behavior. He bit me a few weeks ago (drew blood, required trip to ER with no stitches), and bit a friend of ours over the weekend. Since the bite with me, we decided to get him a new trainer. Our usual trainer wanted us to hand him over for 3 weeks and they would kennel him at the boarders and train him during the day. I was totally uncomfortable with him being in a kennel... especially when I believe that my husband and I should have a direct role in his behavior training. 

The trainer was landed on is a German Shepherd specific trainer. Very pricey, but has lots of awards and trains K-9 dogs as well as domestic and guard dogs. 

Our first training session was last week. It was pretty good and I was happy when we left. At this session yesterday, it got pretty intense.

I'm 8 months pregnant and already hormonal and emotional. After Maverick tried to bite my husband during training a few times, the trainer took him over and chained him up in the yard. Then he put a second choker collar on him tied to a leash and proceeded to antagonize him. Everytime he lunged, the chain would choke him, and he would get "corrected" from my husband. This went on for 5 minutes and I had to walk away. Maverick finally stopped lunging and just laid down. Then after the rest of the training session, the trainer took him inside and had him on his choker with his leash and used a foam baseball bat with a glove on it to antagonize him again. He never hit him, just tapped him to make him irritated and rubbed him all over with it. Maverick bit it so hard a few times it ripped it out of the trainers hand. Eventually he just put up with it and tried to crawl under a table instead of biting.

Has anyone else had any training this intense before?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

No, this sounds nuts to me, but outside of normal puppy biting we haven't had a behavioral issues to deal with. Are you sure your pup is not just playing too rough and has not learned proper bite inhibition? Where are you located?


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## staceyc842 (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm in Columbus, Ohio.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm going to let the 'experts' chime in on this one. :shrug:

You have not mentioned WHAT the dog is going to do...be a K9, do SchH or be a pet?
(Yes, I have witnessed this type of training before.)

The only thing I can add is that I wouldn't leave my dog with anyone either.
If my dog needs training, I prefer they TRAIN ME to train my dog.

JMO.

 Kat


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Hmmmmm..... on one hand I did some pretty intense training with my fear aggressive boy that stopped much of his lunging. He was a lot older though -probably 2ish. 

Ive seen my trainer hang a dog up for biting him over a correction that the dog deemed as unfair. Again though a 2-3 year old dog active in training that simply ignores most pressure put on him. The action didnt even phase him - may not of even gotten through to him although he did stop biting at the trainer.

For an 8 month old puppy - I would be pretty concerned. You dont correct a dog until the dog knows better, and if this pup is just beginning training - I see it not ending well.

New trainer.

Remember there are manu different ways to train sport/protection/working dogs. And some do it simply by dominance and fear tactics. Their dog may run a perfect obedience score at a trial. But if it's because the dog is terrified of the handler, what's the point? 

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## staceyc842 (Oct 10, 2013)

He is going to be a housedog. But with the baby coming soon, we are worried about what he will do to a child. Dont worry, they wont be left alone blah blah. But still... 

So far, he's bitten me twice. Both times left scars. He bit a friend of the family and drew blood. And he's lunged at both kids and adults. If he wasnt on leash during those lunges, he probably would have bitten pretty bad. He bit me because I tried to take away a sock that he had. He bit our friend because he went to pet him and Maverick though that he was taking his bone away. And he lunged at the kids for no reason. They werent even looking at him.

So even though he's going to be a housedog... we cant have that kind of aggression for much longer.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I wouldn't use this trainer. He's trying to shut your dog down. I prefer to build the dog up, not put him down.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I would never let someone do this to any dog of mine.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sounds like resource guarding, there are several threads on it that may be helpful. You can use the search function just under the black bar near the top of the page, here is one of them, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/158559-resource-guarding.html

What was going on when your pup was lunging at the kids? Hopefully someone with more experience will post with advice and perhaps a few good trainer recommendations as well.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It sounds like the trainer is trying to "flood" the dog..

Frankly, I believe, aggression can beget aggression He may chill out for the trainer at the moment, but it may escalate his aggression in real life situations.

Personally, I would find another trainer..and pronto..

Tho both instances with YOU and the FRIEND, sound like he was resource guarding (he obviously did not want YOU taking the sock away and your friend the bone),,WHen a dog bites a person they live with, aggressively, that is one big no no.

Any of my dogs bit me like that, or even thought about it, I wouldn't need a trainer to take care of him, I'd do it myself, and they'd be sorry they bit the hand that feeds them (I"m being sarcastic here, I don't expect you guys to do this yourselves)

I think you need to find (ask for referrals here on the forum for your area)..either a good behaviorist or behaviorist/trainer..I would NOT send this dog away, I wouldn't let this trainer touch a dog of mine ..

Your dog is only 8 months old, I don't mean to be harsh, but maybe you've been to easy on him? He sounds like he needs a good solid leader/training, or he may just be wired wrong 

I would not trust him around anyone , you definitely need some help Hope you can find a referral..


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Hopefully someone with more experience will post with advice and perhaps a few good trainer recommendations as well.


Honestly, this is a situation where I feel like Internet advice is likely to do a lot more harm than good.

We know that the OP is eight months pregnant (which means: (a) she physically and emotionally can't/shouldn't be picking fights with a large dog who's already sent her to the ER once; and (b) they need to get a handle on these issues fast -- but that need for speed often pushes people into ill-advised approaches that promise magical instant results).

It doesn't sound like the OP has a clear sense of what's causing this behavior or how/if anything else the owners have been doing could possibly be contributing to it. Or, maybe more accurately, _I_ can't tell what's going on from the written description, other than that they seem to be dealing with a young dog that has very poor bite inhibition and sounds like he's pretty easily triggered. But that's so generic that it's not much help.

So in this scenario I'm not about to suggest _anything,_ other than that the OP really really ought to find a good, certified trainer/behaviorist to work with in person.


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I think if you did not feel good about this, then yes go with what you think is right. You do need help but I would not let anyone train my dog this way. So I think you have to find another trainer


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Honestly, this is a situation where I feel like Internet advice is likely to do a lot more harm than good.
> 
> We know that the OP is eight months pregnant (which means: (a) she physically and emotionally can't/shouldn't be picking fights with a large dog who's already sent her to the ER once; and (b) they need to get a handle on these issues fast -- but that need for speed often pushes people into ill-advised approaches that promise magical instant results).
> 
> ...


Agree completely! This is beyond my experience and as you pointed out, so much can be misinterpreted, i hope someone familiar with their area knows of a good trainer.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

let me ask this as well,,how about your breeder?? Maybe they can be of help/with training????


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

make sure you can trust this dog before he's around your future baby.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

To me, this sounds like a great way to make your puppy fear and mistrust people. 
I would go elsewhere.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I hope that trainers name isn't Tim


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm with mericel on this one. I will say this though, behavior eradication done right uses some heavy corrections that hurt and aren't fun to watch or administer. The trainer has probably done the math already. The baby is on the way soon and if the issue isn't fixed the dog is likely a dead dog walking. It is hard to successfully rehome liabilities. You can go with advice from the internet or you can work with a trainer that does that kind of thing with aggressive adult dogs for a living. Those corrections might look harsh but if it's to save the life of the dog then I think it is justified.

Reminds me of a sign I saw in a store one time. You can have the job done cheaply quickly or done well, pick any two. There is probably a way to counter condition the behavior but it would require a very knowledgeable trainer take a lot of time and be very expensive. It likely would require boarding the dog too. If the dogs issues are not medical or genetic the issue was human created. Don't take offense to this but that means it started with you guys and depending on how bad it has gotten might be better resolved away from you too. They can then teach you how to maintain the training and not recreate the issues.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Im sorry but a dog biting the handler and handlers husband is not an indicator of fear aggression to me. To me its a sign that the dog is too much for the handler. Whether its social aggression or redirected frustration who can say? We are on the net you have to see the dog in person before you can form a hypothesis. 

As for the trainer if he has REAL results to his name I would go with that over any internet advice. Do some checking see if he actually has done all the things he claims to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can anyone in or near Columbus, Ohio, recommend a trainer that they have worked with, or has a really good reputation with dogs with some aggressive problems?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im sorry but a dog biting the handler and handlers husband is not an indicator of fear aggression to me. To me its a sign that the dog is too much for the handler. Whether its social aggression or redirected frustration who can say? We are on the net you have to see the dog in person before you can form a hypothesis.
> 
> As for the trainer if he has REAL results to his name I would go with that over any internet advice. Do some checking see if he actually has done all the things he claims to.


I wouldn't go to a k-9 trainer with a pet dog. It could be fear aggression, but you are right, someone with good experience needs to evaluate the dog in person. 

I am also interested in whether it isn't a good time to contact the breeder and see if they have any suggestions.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

what brought your pup to the point of biting? Was the scenario similar or just out of the blue?

Is there a schutzhund club nearby that you could look for others to evaluate your pup?

You're right to be concerned and the web might not be the best place for answers.

Your pup needs to be evaluated by someone you trust.

Best of luck.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Until you find a better trainer, don't give your dog anything. Keep him on a leash at all times. No toys, no bones, no nothing.


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## LPLIV (Oct 8, 2013)

I have been really lucky to have two great trainers, one who has been internationally known in Schutzhund circles and another one who currently has about 40 dogs world wide in active K-9 service. (www.kreativekennels.com) Both trainers have worked their dogs hard but neither would do that to a pup... Get rid of that trainer unless you want a dog that is so hard that he is a constant worry around family and friends let alone stranger who want to pet him.. I'm on my 3rd GSD and the second one was so high in work drive that if I had treated her that way she would have been a real threat to everyone including family. I don't know about you but I want a dog that is as safe to be around in a nursery as well as in a crowd of strangers.. Her progeny has been very even tempered and loving but will be high achievers as working dogs. Discipline and correction is a part of pack life and necessary for gsd training. Good luck, a quality trainer will help you with this part... 
Phil


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog is already a threat to family and friends and probably strangers too. Frankly a trainer with experience with the breed, awards accolades, and is expensive and is still in business despite using those methods is probably **** good at what he does. In certain cases doing adversive style training like that correctly requires better timing knowledge and skill on the part of the trainer than with positive methods. He's seen the dog first hand. We haven't. Not saying I'm a huge fan of the method used and it has its potential drawbacks that would also require their own ironing out, but there ya have it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Baillif said:


> The dog is already a threat to family and friends and probably strangers too.


The dog is 8 months old. I have an 8 month old. I really don't know that this dog is hopeless unless it is treated extremely harshly, and shut down. I just don't know. I don't like giving up on an 8 month old puppy. This type of training is like giving up, because only some dogs can take it. Other dogs will become total nerve-bags, unsafe with anyone. 

I think a pup at this stage can go a bunch of different ways. 8 months is when a pup starts pushing its limits with dogs and people. Strengthening the leadership, increasing exericise, and continuing training will take a pup through this stage with or without neutering. Neutering might help. 

I training a dog like this and then turning him back over to a household who are not that kind of trainers, is a recipe for disaster. 

Can the OP post a pedigree of this dog, it would be interesting to see what is in the dog's background and what type of dog it is.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah the trainer is trying to shut this dog down...most likely due to the fact that there is a baby on the way in a month and the owners don't have the next 6 months to use positive reinforcement to stop the dog from behaving like this. It's not giving up on the dog, its just trying to turn a dog that might be too much for these people (or just have issues), into a calmer dog that doesn't make any decisions by himself.

The description of the training doesn't sound good, but I'm sure the trainer has reasons. He also (according to OP) has success and trains much higher level dogs. For some of us to sit here and say we don't approve isn't 100% right IMO. I do think that this dog could probably be changed in other methods that could take a much longer time. This is a very old-school, "Caesar" like, method. This dog has bitten twice...at 8 months old it should understand very well what to bite and what not to bite.

I give props to the OP for sticking through this and trying to help this dog...9/10 people in her shoes would've been rehoming this dog after the first incident.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I training a dog like this and then turning him back over to a household who are not that kind of trainers, is a recipe for disaster.


That's a concern I share.

If the approach being used requires a very heavy hand, and the OP is not comfortable with doing that (or, given her condition, _able_ to do it), then personally I'd be worried about a blowup down the line.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Another concern I have is that if the OP is not able to read her dog well enough to see what's causing the problems currently, then even if she _is_ able and willing to employ harsh approaches, those methods may be used in the wrong situations, at the wrong time, or to the wrong degree -- and then, again, you get a blowup.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is the option of management of the dog till those longer methods work, such as crating and use of leashes indoors and taking lots of other preventive measures that keep the dog away from the baby, or reduce risk to others (You'd be smart to go this route even if the dog showed no aggression at all) I've got a 7 month old pup and he's been great but I'd keep him away from babies or young kids.

All dogs are different. The general idea that aggressive training methods breed aggression is just false (although it can happen with certain dogs or when used a certain way.) One dog might respond exactly the way your corrections intended and another might come up the leash at you. 

It's not an ideal situation for the OP or the dog but definitely props for taking a bite that required medical attention and still sticking it out with the dog.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Might be the best darn trainer in the world, we don't know.. Just because some on here don't agree with the methods doesn't make this trainer unknowledgeable or bad. Don't know the dog either and what's going on in it's head.. but if it's biting it's owners in that serious fashion that you require going to the hospital, then... This is a scary situation..

Until those out there have truly dealt with an aggressive dog, sometimes it ain't all cookies and praise.. And just because the dog is 8 months old means squat.. 

I wish the OP the best of luck with what ever route they take..


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I wouldn't care what my dog did - I would not use this trainer - nor do I believe that it will fix things. You are definitely going above and beyond with your dog and that is wonderful - however please do be realistic and careful.

I am not sure if you have him now, but would get him if not. 

I would contact Tuft's immediately and start there while trying to find someone local. PETFAX Behavior Consultation: Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University

Some trainer searches: 
Search for Professionals 

http://www.academyfordogtrainers.com...erral_List.pdf

https://www.karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer gets the brain moving

OSU has a behavioral clinic as well: Behavior | College of Veterinary Medicine If I had a dog that was biting I would be looking at places like this. 

While I was on that site found this study that they had posted: http://vet.osu.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/behavior/trainingArticle.pdf (they acknowledge limitations)


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

It's not that I don't agree that some methods used similarly wouldn't make things better, i do not agree with them in this instance. I normally don't comment on training things over the net because there are usually too many variables to get it right and this is something dangerous.

I don't agree with it for a couple reasons, #1 it appears the dog is showing resource guarding stuff and there are ways to work with that. They aren't. They are tying the dog out and antagonizing and poking with foam bats and trying to illicit a response and then squash it. Fine, but I have a feeling the dog is going to learn this is situational and at home things will be no different at best and probably worse. 

I don't care how many times the dog has bitten, resource guarding can be simply managed and be much safer than this. This works, only when you go all the way, and I do mean all the way. Most trainers or handlers don't have the stomach, for it. and when done incompletely, it only escalates over time.

This has nothing to do with cookies and praise or aversives or not, it's about applying things correctly to make a difference. I do NOT think that is what is happening here by any means. 

If someone came to me and said this is all I have, i need this gone now, I can think of a few scenarios I could and one would be the wife and a food bowl. I'd also give the owners a heavy dose of how to manage this, because it most certainly can be managed pretty easily. 

anyway, i have try to avoid the ugly stuff, but i have no problem doing them either. But this sounds neither appropriate, nor effective. If you're going to use them, at least use a similar situation in which to train with. The fact that the trainer missed that part alone tells me a lot. I don't care how "good" some say he or she is, I'd be moving on.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog did lunge at kids for non resource guarding issues and while that is probably a separate issue in and of itself, and might be doing it for issues other than agression we don't know the dog. Lots of us have seen agression start with resource guarding then spill over into other areas when they realize the agressive tactics work. Maybe he saw something else. If he didn't then yeah maybe there is an issue with that trainer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wish the OP would come back and give some feedback. I'd like to know a bit more about the dog(and who she's using for help).


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## Harbud (Aug 27, 2013)

staceyc842 said:


> Our first training session was last week. It was pretty good and I was happy when we left. At this session yesterday, it got pretty intense.
> 
> I'm 8 months pregnant and already hormonal and emotional. After Maverick tried to bite my husband during training a few times, the trainer took him over and chained him up in the yard. Then he put a second choker collar on him tied to a leash and proceeded to antagonize him. Everytime he lunged, the chain would choke him, and he would get "corrected" from my husband. This went on for 5 minutes and I had to walk away. Maverick finally stopped lunging and just laid down. Then after the rest of the training session, the trainer took him inside and had him on his choker with his leash and used a foam baseball bat with a glove on it to antagonize him again. He never hit him, just tapped him to make him irritated and rubbed him all over with it. Maverick bit it so hard a few times it ripped it out of the trainers hand. Eventually he just put up with it and tried to crawl under a table instead of biting.
> 
> Has anyone else had any training this intense before?


Im sorry I didn't read through all the posts in response but as soon as I read this I was a mix between angry and feeling sick. That is not a wise way to handle a dog. I guarantee the dog is NOT forgetting or resigning himself to what is being done to him and he is getting more agitated even though he looks like he has given up. All this trainer is teaching him is to suppress his warning signs and the next time he bites it will be a doozey without any warning at all!! . VERY Dangerous, please consider a new trainer and keep your family safe.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> To me, this sounds like a great way to make your puppy fear and mistrust people.
> I would go elsewhere.


This is a good example of how people can get bad advice on forums. 
The above statement was made without reading the OP's subsequent clarifications regarding what this dog was doing. 

I assumed it was puppy gatoring, because the dog is only 8 months old. 

Today I returned to the thread and found out it could be actual aggression, so my reply above is not so great. 

In my opinion, it is impossible to turn an innately aggressive GSD into a nice pet dog. All the training in the world is not going to override who he is. You can shut down a dog, but you can't transform his temperament and personality. 

I can say that when I had babies to care for, there was no way I could ever have handled an aggressive GSD on top of everything, nor would I have felt safe with such a dog in my house.

A good German Shepherd follows you around with happy eyes and a "doggie grin," and swishes his tail from side to side when you even look at him. He barks at strangers, stops when told to stop barking, and makes you feel safe. 

Such a dog gives you immeasurable joy. I wish everyone to experience the happiness of owning such a German Shepherd. That is the GSD that should be in a house with babies and kids.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

This does not sound as simple as resource guarding to me. This sounds like aggression. And at 8 months old, this is a dog with adult teeth that can cause serious damage. 

I also agree with what someone else posted, that if this is indeed true aggression, the chances of it being trained with cookies and praise are slim to none. 

OP..you can not take advice on a situation like this from the forum experts. This dog already has a handful of damaging bites under his belt and even more attempts. You are 8 months pregnant and will have a child in your house for much longer than the dog will be around. Like Sunflower said, from this point on the aggression will have to be a lifetime management issue, and there's slim chance of a truly aggressive dog becoming 100% safe and trustworthy with anyone, let alone a young family. Do what you need to do to keep your family safe first, and if you are not comfotrable with this trainer, then find another one or consider some of the other options.


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

So if anybody was curious: This is how dogs end up in shelters to be euthanized.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Regardless of whether or not you decide to go with this trainer, OP, I would also consult with a veterinary behaviorist just to rule out every possibility. Nobody here has seen your dog and I would encourage you to seek help from different types of professionals, since they may have different but useful opinions. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

Harbud said:


> I agree with you 100% but that may be a bit harsh on the OP. Clearly she is not comfortable with what is happening both with her chosen trainer or with her dogs behaviour.


you're right. I'm just not in a super tolerant mood this morning, but that's only half an excuse.

I work with rescues groups trying to help salvage dogs like this so they can have a second chance. In many cases what brought them to that point was not their fault. It was the silly primate that made the choice bringing the dog in to their home without bothering to do any research about what they were getting in to.

My first 2 boxers we that way. I travelled 100%, my wife wanted a boxer so we got Sparkles. We did the usual puppy obedience stuff and she is a great dog. Same with hawk. My circumstances are perhaps a bit different: I'm 6'2" and the one time Sparkles nipped at me I bit back and settled it right there.
When I decided to get Kaiser I did a ton or research before hand. While most of the legend of GSDs is overblown I'll grant: they have very strong personalities and require their owner to be a match for them. I don't take any guff (I hate the stupid language filters they do nothing to improve anything) from Kaiser and he knows how things work here - he gets spoiled by just chilling out.
I wish the OP had taken the time before getting the puppy to research what they were getting in to. If they were planning on a baby at that point they probably should have put of getting the puppy. 

At this point the OP's best bet is to stop. The husband needs to nut up and control the dog. That doesn't mean getting violent or abusive. It means being confident, assertive and consistent in dealing with the puppy. The puppy stays in its crate if it is not attached to hubby by a leash. Where hubby goes the puppy goes, or it goes in the crate. Puppy gets its food from hubby or mommy. no food bowl. Puppy gets to play with hubby. All good things come from hubby. Once mommy is back up and operational she can get in on the act too, but for now due to circumstances it needs to be the "Hubby Show". Puppy doesn't need to hang out with other dogs (no dog parks or puppy play dates for now). When guests come over puppy can meet them but puppy sits or lays next to hubby at all times.
Mom and hubby both need to go to school and learn how to handle their wild thing too. Having a trainer train the dog won't help them. Read the books that are out there - there are plenty of threads here listing great books (I've read a ton of them now). Check out YouTube there are some really good dog training videos on there.

It just hurts my head that people don't bother to learn about stuff when the information is so easily attainable.

As it is, I stand by my statement: I fully expect to see this dog show up in a shelter and a rescue will evaluate it to see if it can be rescued. With this combination of owners and super ninja dog trainer the dog won't be rescued and will get to ride the needle instead.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

NTexFoster said:


> At this point the OP's best bet is to stop. The husband needs to nut up and control the dog. That doesn't mean getting violent or abusive. It means being confident, assertive and consistent in dealing with the puppy. The puppy stays in its crate if it is not attached to hubby by a leash. Where hubby goes the puppy goes, or it goes in the crate. Puppy gets its food from hubby or mommy. no food bowl. Puppy gets to play with hubby. All good things come from hubby. Once mommy is back up and operational she can get in on the act too, but for now due to circumstances it needs to be the "Hubby Show". Puppy doesn't need to hang out with other dogs (no dog parks or puppy play dates for now). When guests come over puppy can meet them but puppy sits or lays next to hubby at all times.
> Mom and hubby both need to go to school and learn how to handle their wild thing too. Having a trainer train the dog won't help them. Read the books that are out there - there are plenty of threads here listing great books (I've read a ton of them now). Check out YouTube there are some really good dog training videos on there.
> 
> It just hurts my head that people don't bother to learn about stuff when the information is so easily attainable.
> .



This will not work if they are going to have an infant in one month. Parents will be sleep deprived and not able to be on top of the dog every single second.

One mistake and there will be a tragedy. 

An aggressive GSD does not belong in a house with an infant, I don't care what training is suggested. 

"Learning about stuff" will not fix innate aggression.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah this definitely sounds like a genetic issue at this point. It could be managed, it could even be taught to be put away, but in the end...I would not trust this dog ever around any children. These types of issues can easily be managed, but I can't imagine managing them with a little baby in the house. Especially one that will start moving and interacting with the dog before the baby can be told to not do certain things.

Again, props to OP for doing all this to try and keep the dog. I think what selzer said is true about this being an 8 month old dog and not something that can be given up on. But at the same time its probably at least a 70 lbs GSD with big boy teeth. Haven't seen where OP is but I suggest they try and contact a rescue group. Sounds like they have the ability to keep this dog in the house while the group tries to find it a home. This is they type of dog that a lot of people could probably handle, and depending on the area OP is in there might be plenty of them around. I echo what NTexFoster said, with the proper training and regiment, this dog can have a future. Whether its with the husband or another home, someone out there could help this dog out.

I think the toughest thing many people have to come to terms is that sometimes their dream dog, just doesn't turn out the way they want to. And it will never be a dog that has the same freedoms as their friend's dogs, or the dogs they see on TV/in movies. It's understanding that some dogs, due to whatever issues they have, can't be trusted to live the same lives as their happy/balanced/normal counterparts.


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> This will not work if they are going to have an infant in one month. Parents will be sleep deprived and not able to be on top of the dog every single second.
> 
> One mistake and there will be a tragedy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the partial quote sunshine. You'll notice that I early stated that if they were planning on **comment removed by ADMIN. Find a better way to express yourself ** that should put off getting a puppy.

Typically it is suggested you "learn about stuff" before you do it. For instance: before attempting to ride a motorcycle it is recommended you take an MSF course. Before defending yourself with a handgun you might take a course on close range gun fighting (it's a rather eye opening education).
Before adopting a dog of any type perhaps pay the living creature the curtsey of learning something about it beyond "dogs go woof".

Ever single activity listed holds life and death in its grip. In this particular circumstance the dog's life is at stake. Perhaps it is genetic. But given the quantity and quality of window licking I have borne witness too over the past week my first instinct is to look to the stupid primates involved.

And yes: I have two daughters. We got Sparkles when my eldest was in Kindergarten and my youngest was 3.

To the OP: PM me your address. I'll take the dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> OP..you can not take advice on a situation like this from the forum experts..


100 % agreed.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There isn't enough information here to just claim it's a medical or genetic issue. Just like there isn't enough information here to lay the blame at the feet of the handler. We don't know what we don't know. This kind of thing is easier to create unintentionally through handling than it is intentionally through breeding. Odds are way stronger it's handler caused but we can't know for sure.

I've owned rescues that were nervy genetic messes from the get go as very small pups. They are definitely out there.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Baillif said:


> The dog did lunge at kids for non resource guarding issues and while that is probably a separate issue in and of itself, and might be doing it for issues other than agression we don't know the dog. Lots of us have seen agression start with resource guarding then spill over into other areas when they realize the agressive tactics work. Maybe he saw something else. If he didn't then yeah maybe there is an issue with that trainer.


could be, and lots of dogs lunge at kids on bikes, again, tying a dog up and agitating it by poking isn't really a good way to train for that. At least situationally train for it for crying out loud. There is an issue with the trainer, and it isn't because he decided to use aversives, it's because they don't understand how to use them.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah the thing that bothers me aside from the lack of context issue is the possibility of unintentional superstition if groundwork isn't laid down to make sure the dog knew exactly what it was being punished for. 

The dog is biting for real though and if it was a handler issue the trainer might have had an issue recreating the behavior he was looking to eliminate as the dog wouldn't be so bold with a stranger with stronger more aggressive presence. Most dogs I've seen displaying guarding aggression especially at that age will warning bite without breaking the skin and not just go directly for the money shot.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I see what the trainer did as, setting the dog up so you can elicit the undesirable behavior, so you can teach/show the handlers/owners how best to deal with the aggression/situation.. It's more controlled that way..

As least that's my take on it... Whether it's right or wrong..


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## Harbud (Aug 27, 2013)

The biggest concern to me about the method is that it was taken too far and as crackem mentioned the trainer clearly didn't understand aversives. No training should be done by bullying a dog to practice an undesirable and dangerous behaviour so that it can be punished (corrected) until it hides from the handler. That's just not right, how unfair and cruel is that? I really hope that the OP stands up for her dog and whether they re home or pick a new trainer that the dog isn't subjected to more of this treatment.


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## AXO (Sep 25, 2013)

My Sampson was the same way at 8 months old. Having an American German Shepherd prior, We had no idea and received a fast reality check with Sampson who was a German import with a long pedigree of working line. 

He bit my 16 year old daughter while she was engaged in a physical fight with my 14 year old daughter. I was outside and was not present for the bite. My daughter had 4 deep puncture wounds in her left shoulder. 

My wife was freaked out and demanded we get rid of Sampson. I tried to explain to her this was not an unprovoked random vicious bite. I tried to explain to her about the Family pack and how he was just breaking up the fight and just trying to keep order in our house. My wife was not buying it. I was able to convince my Wife to keep Sampson, but he had to go to training with a trainer.

Being a Deputy Sheriff, I contacted my K9 Sergeant who has been a K9 Sergeant for 21 years and has won numerous awards and titles with his German Shepherds. He also has a dog training school on the side. He was extremely confident he could train Sampson. I will admit his training methods were a bit primitive and Aggressive, but Sampson being a 80lb 8 month old puppy we needed to nip his aggressiveness in the butt before it becomes a real issue.

We utilized a prong collar. I say we because you never want to leave your dog with a trainer to be trained and then returned to you. Not only does your dog need to be accustomed working with you, you also need to be trained.

Sampson was extremely smart and very fast learner. I was amazed at the 180 he did in only (6) One on One, one classes. I continued training with him for the remainder of his life. He was the best German Shepherd Dog I have ever adopted! My wife and children trained with Sampson. The bond and relationship was Amazing. Sampson literally would never leave my Wife's side. We unfortunately had to put him to sleep about three weeks ago for health issues. He was 10.5 years old. We of course are Devastated and Heart Broken. Sampson will always be in our heart's. 

On a happier note, I put a deposit on a beautiful GSD puppy and will be able to bring him home on the 19th. I can't wait to start training and socializing him at 8 weeks instead of 8 months. I am confident that I will not need to use a prong collar with our new addition, but time will tell.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

G-burg said:


> I see what the trainer did as, setting the dog up so you can elicit the undesirable behavior, so you can teach/show the handlers/owners how best to deal with the aggression/situation.. It's more controlled that way..
> 
> As least that's my take on it... Whether it's right or wrong..


I see that too, I'm sure that was there thinking, if they were thinking at all. Or it is some fly by nighter who read something once and decided to go for it. Either way it is still a dumb way to go about it. They aren't even eliciting the behavior in remotely close to the same way it is shown in real life.

I've been a part of training where a dog is on 3 leashes, 2 on slip collar held on long lines by 2 others and a shorter one on a prong by the handler. Th 2 were there to choke a dog out and keep it from eating it's handler after trying to elicit an aggressive response thru ways that brought it forth in real life. 

I know about non cookie training, and this scenario doesn't sound anything but dangerous for all involved in the end. The dog has already had success at home thru it's actions, I don't see this doing anything to remedy that.


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## rumhelka (Aug 31, 2011)

I would not allow anybody to handle my dog in such a way!!! Find another trainer. First of all: you need to be very consistent and demand good behavior from your puppy. Neuter him ASAP . Then you and your husband should train him to consider you leaders. Only then he will listen and respect you. I'm not even sure if you shouldn't give this dog away and start with some easier one. There might be a person who can handle this dog, you might be simply too "soft" for him. Some dogs will be good around "softer" people, others will take charge and decide whom and when to "discipline". If you are not "bossy enough", you probably can not handle this dog, I'm sorry.
Good Luck!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

staceyc842 said:


> The trainer was landed on is a German Shepherd specific trainer. Very pricey, but has lots of awards and trains K-9 dogs as well as domestic and guard dogs.


This is what we always say to look for. Not some bully who has something to prove, but someone with lots of experience with the breed. So....OP asked if anyone has trained like this before, because it's something OP has a hard time trying to understand, maybe it's just too brutal. Is it? 

IDK. I too don't take "guff" and I've never had to 'explain' this to the dogs I live with. The one exception is DH's AmBull, but this was done in what was mentioned already, situational circumstances. This dog was so completely spoiled, she had a very tough time of it when she found out that her resource guarding wasn't going to continue with me in the picture. She's sound: she just didn't want to relinquish the power she had. 

I'm not condoning the trainers method. But I'm also not able to criticize it either, when I have no idea about how this puppy was raised. It does sound brutal to me too, but what do I know? Will this damage the dog, with the end result being PTS - or will it change the way the dog thinks about the power hierarchy in the home?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Neutering won't fix issues like this and in many cases will make it worse. It's a myth.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have been in a similar situation. With my last male. At 15 months he started coming up the leash at me. It was terrifying. I was told to rehome him, that he would never be a SAR dog, never be safe. 

I went to a SchH trainer in NJ and we worked him. I changed how I handled the dog at home and we worked there on double leashes. So if the dog came up at me the trainer was able to correct and teach me what to look for and when to correct. It was hard. I had tears in my eyes most if the time. 

But it worked. That dog turned into one if the most loving, trustworthy dogs you could ever meet. 

The problem was MY ignorance in handling him. I let him get away with everything for fear if diminishing drive. Instead I created a monster who thought he could do whatever he wanted. Lesson learned. 

I can't speak to knowledge or ability of OP trainer. Or the appropriateness of the training. Just that it is appropriate in some animals. We have no idea if the trainer is planning home sessions and working with the owners in the handling if the dog. OP has not said. 

If this dog is already out if control at 8 months drastic measures have to be taken or the dog needs to be rehomed. 


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

** quote of a deleted quote removed **

Wow.
And you have two daughters.
Nice.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The thing is, I don't trust anyone. I have only a little experience with working line dogs, and if people tell me working line dogs can handle this type of training just fine, I really have nothing to say to them. Are we SURE this dog is a working line dog? Some people think that because there are shutzhund titles in the background, there dog is a WL. Not so at all.

The show line dogs that I have the most experience, would not do well with this sort of training at all. Maybe 1-2 in a litter could hack it. The others do not have the temperament for that sort of treatment. Less aversive methods, and some maturity, leadership and consistent training, will make a huge difference with the dog. 

We have not seen a pedigree. We do not know if this dog is a WL dog with a lot of natural aggression and drive, or a showline dog.

We do not know if the dog's issue is due to poor leadership and management, or if he is a genetic nervebag. 

We do not know that much about the bites. He has lunged at children. Well, a lot of dogs do, especially poorly socialized puppies. They can be trained not to do this. He has sent someone to the ER -- NO STITCHES THOUGH. So someone went to the ER for a tetnus shot? Possibly. When an 8 month old GSD means business, is seriously aggressive, it is not going to just break the skin a little, it is going to need stitches and possibly a drain. My sister was giving left over steak to my girls, and one snatched it from her hand, and she called that a bite. It isn't a bite. 

We really do not have enough information to diagnose or treat this puppy over the internet, but we can feel violently opposed to the treatment that the OP is also opposed to.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

OP hasn't even posted since the first page. so I think everyone needs to put their theories / views on hold until they can catch up and provide us with more info.

right now we're flooding the OP!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> Wow.
> And you have two daughters.
> Nice.


Yeah, I seriously considered notifying on that post. But I couldn't believe I was really reading that right.


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> ** quote of a deleted quote removed **
> 
> Wow.
> And you have two daughters.
> Nice.


Yes. They race go karts, compete in 3 gun competitions with me, ride dirt bikes and know how to keep a dog under control.
It is nice.

As for the censoring by the admins: it's your party. I'm just passing through.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Wow, I have own 7 German Shepherds. My first five were American breds. These 2 are german breds. The only aggression I have ever gotten was my American bred female growled at me twice. I admit I dealt harshly with it but that was the worst. An 8 month old biting people? wow


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

This trainer has taught your dog really bad lessons of human agression. He must be hung for doing it to your dog. He doesn't understand the meaning of his tools and gave them a really bad go. Choke collars are for show dogs only - feeling strangled, the dog's body will try to free itself automatically, the dog would pull on the lead absolutely naturally if the collar feels narrow. First we are training our dogs to heel perfectly on a very wide collar, or a wide prone as the last option - the larger the squire of its impact on the dog's neck, the greater the effect would be. Then we train them to pull, because your dog should pull on, when running the ring at the show. Start training with a narrow martingale, and end with a thin brass chain collar - your dog learns to pull, but not to pull to the full extent when it chokes. The decoy's bat was never meant to supress the dog. During the act of protection training the bat plays a role of a distractor, your dog shouldn't pay attention to these hits, but consentrate on your commands and on the decoy's movements. But, that trainer meant to break your dog's spirit. I'm scared to think what he could do to your 8 months puppy.
First of all, revise your relationship with your dog. Who are you to him in your pack? If you shout at him, raise your voice - you cannot possibly be his superior, because he reads it by your intonations: an exited raised voice is a quality of the weaker, the stronger is always calm and speaks like a king. There could be many factors at work why your dog doesn't mind you to be his boss, sometimes it could be seemingly insignificant things like - who is the first to step outside your front door? It should be you. What we do - we always remind our dogs, that they are our puppies, puppies forever. One of exercises is mouth to mouth feeding time to time, or leading your dog into the unknown, exploring new places together.
You deal with agressive type of GSD, agression is prominent in him only because he is young. But, he will become calmer after 2 and half, and also meaner, if you wouldn't train him properly. He must learn to give up his agressive intentions immediately not because he is threatened by you, but because he is scared to displease you, to lose your trust. I'd suggest you to look for a good Schutzhund club and take first classes there. It will help to let the vapour out of him. Then, many of agressive puppies wouldn't be so agressive if they were exhausted playing with the ball for an hour twice a day. His other emotions might need to be discharged in catching the prey, it would be better if it was a decoy, not your husband friend.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

Im in agreement with sunflowers and doggiedad, with a baby on the way you will have very little or no time for this dog. call the breeder and try to work out a home that would be a better fit, perhaps a person with time and knowledge on how to deal with him. I would not have this dog in my house with any children present.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its funny how many on here are trying to diminish the aggression and portray the dog as a little puppy. Im betting these folks have never had an 8 month old "puppy" charge or attempt to bite them with serious intent. Im betting even less have worked with a dog that has bitten and sent someone to the hospital. I wonder how many bites are caused by handlers that have too much dog as opposed to caused by aversive based training.. I have my theories..


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its funny how many on here are trying to diminish the aggression and portray the dog as a little puppy. Im betting these folks have never had an 8 month old "puppy" charge or attempt to bite them with serious intent. Im betting even less have worked with a dog that has bitten and sent someone to the hospital. I wonder how many bites are caused by handlers that have too much dog as opposed to caused by aversive based training.. I have my theories..


I had a dog this aggressive - I eventually euthanized him at 3.5 yrs old due to aggression.

Honestly I think these people need to rehome or euthanize this dog. They are trying to rush training because there is a child on the way and that isnt going to fix anything

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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If the dog is anything like how he sounds and is PB with papers I would sell him to a working / sport home. 

A helper I know had a male that had some social aggression. It started similar type nonsense with his wife. He set up the dog to do it again..(wont tell you what happened next ). The dog avoided him for a couple days afterwards..and never again tried that nonsense with his wife. Message was recieved loud and clear. He continued to keep and work the dog afterwards and still owns him I believe with no further issues. 

Many owners these days probably would have done the old cookie and clicker stuff or gone to a trainer who sells that type of training. Got bitten a few more times and PTS the dog because he was so "aggressive" and "they did all they could do".



Anubis_Star said:


> I had a dog this aggressive - I eventually euthanized him at 3.5 yrs old due to aggression.
> 
> Honestly I think these people need to rehome or euthanize this dog. They are trying to rush training because there is a child on the way and that isnt going to fix anything
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

NTexFoster said:


> Yes. They race go karts, compete in 3 gun competitions with me, ride dirt bikes and know how to keep a dog under control.
> It is nice.
> 
> As for the censoring by the admins: it's your party. I'm just passing through.


For this reason alone you my friend are not a good home for a dog like this. 
Your censored comment shows your lack respect for women and your suggestion that your young daughters could control this dog is scary and reckless IMO. 

Top the OP, you are about to embark on one of lifes most amazing adventures......having a child. To risk that child is not ok and I bet your gut is telling you this. You won't ever trust this dog with your child after you yourself had to seek medical treatment for a bite from him. 
I personally would return dog to breeder or rehome with someone experienced to deal with dog aggression. Focus on your baby and look for another dog in the future from someone reputable who produces stable dogs you can trust.

For whatever reason your dog is aggressive and to have the dog you love hurt you so badly is heart wrenching. I would hate to be in your shoes right now.

Hugs to you for whichever decision you make.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Considering the amount of aggression the trainer is illiciting, I really think that the dog is a bad fit for the current home situation. Finding someone willing to take him on may not be easy though. I think that, that is probably what you need to do though.


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

How can you raise a child if you can't raise a dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J and J M said:


> How can you raise a child if you can't raise a dog.


How unhelpful.

Sometimes dogs are wired wrong. Sometimes people do get dogs that are too much for them, nothing like what they were expecting. I think the amount of aggression the 8 month old is displaying is actually a-typical for the breed. And that may have nothing to do with how the pup was raised, but is natural hardness, aggression, and drive. Maybe with different leadership, no one would ever know there was this much aggression in the dog, but that is a pretty big maybe.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

J and J M said:


> How can you raise a child if you can't raise a dog.


This couple is not abusing or starving the dog! They have acquired an aggressive dog and need help. I myself would most likely not be able to handle this dog but I do consider myself a successful parent.

What a rediculous statement!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Don't listen to advises to give up with your dog. It is very unlikely that the only child would be at risk. The troublesome situation is that one when there are more than one kid over 3 years old and a young untrained dog. Pack instinct is very strong in GSD, sure, he would be the best friend to your baby. But don't think it will make your life easier, he would bite big adults, who abused him, dogs have a very good memory. You need a Schuthund trainer, sure you have a club around, a kind and considerate person, who will give you tips how to "buy" your dog's soul, about making your dog obedient first of all, and how to avoid risky situations. 8 months old - that is when human adolescents start to challenge their parents, fight with their fathers. Grown sons don't need masters, but they need friends. Similarly - in dogs.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> Don't listen to advises to give up with your dog. It is very unlikely that the only child would be at risk. The troublesome situation is that one when there are more than one kid over 3 years old and a young untrained dog. Pack instinct is very strong in GSD, sure, he would be the best friend to your baby.


Unlikely? 

So a 10% chance the dog would harm a newborn? 20%....50%? How about bringing a newborn home to 0%.

Pack instinct is strong and would be best friend to baby?

You have read that this dog has bitten both pack members and serious bites??

Your logic is flawed and potentially dangerous to a newborn baby.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

J and J M said:


> How can you raise a child if you can't raise a dog.


Yes, because it's TOTALLY the same thing 

The fact that these people are going above and beyond for a dog that many would dump or euth shows how caring they are. 

Do us all a favor and go away. What an unbelievably abusive and cruel comment.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Your logic is flawed and potentially dangerous to a newborn baby.


Please, describe the danger. I would like to know about situation how possibly a newborn could be bitten. When the newborn will start walking the dog would be an adult already and behave like an adult towards a puppy of the pack, and, as an agressive type, he, most likely will turn overprotective.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> Don't listen to advises to give up with your dog. It is very unlikely that the only child would be at risk. The troublesome situation is that one when there are more than one kid over 3 years old and a young untrained dog. Pack instinct is very strong in GSD, sure, he would be the best friend to your baby. But don't think it will make your life easier, he would bite big adults, who abused him, dogs have a very good memory. You need a Schuthund trainer, sure you have a club around, a kind and considerate person, who will give you tips how to "buy" your dog's soul, about making your dog obedient first of all, and how to avoid risky situations. 8 months old - that is when human adolescents start to challenge their parents, fight with their fathers. Grown sons don't need masters, but they need friends. Similarly - in dogs.


I'm all for trying to manage an aggressive dog, but having a newborn is not conducive to the level of management required. It will not be fair to anyone involved- the owners or the dog. 

Do I think the dog could thrive in a more experienced house? Yes. Do I fault the OP? Not at all. It has nothing to do with "not doing research", and whoever posted that must be the genius here. Some dogs are wired wrong. Some dogs are too much for the specific handler. NEITHER of those things is the fault of the person, who may have done all kinds of research about the physical and mental needs of a GSD. I consider myself an experienced handler and would have a tough time with a dog like this. Having a dog with aggression issues is NOT the "norm" and has nothing to do with having a GSD. The fact that their first course of action was to find a trainer who had supposed accolades is a GOOD thing and shows how proactive they are. 

OP- I think rehoming would be in everyone's best interest. There is no quick fix for this sort of problem, and "diagnosing" over the internet is pretty much impossible (despite how many people think they know it all). Whatever the root of the aggression (and I do think it's more than resource guarding), it is going to be a major management issue. It's not fair to you, to have to worry about the baby and worry about the dog, it's not fair to the baby to even remotely be at risk, and it's not fair to the dog. I would recommend first contacting the breeder and seeing if they have a line on a home that has the experience, time, and willingness to manage and go from there.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> Don't listen to advises to give up with your dog. It is very unlikely that the only child would be at risk. The troublesome situation is that one when there are more than one kid over 3 years old and a young untrained dog. Pack instinct is very strong in GSD, sure, he would be the best friend to your baby. But don't think it will make your life easier, he would bite big adults, who abused him, dogs have a very good memory. You need a Schuthund trainer, sure you have a club around, a kind and considerate person, who will give you tips how to "buy" your dog's soul, about making your dog obedient first of all, and how to avoid risky situations. 8 months old - that is when human adolescents start to challenge their parents, fight with their fathers. Grown sons don't need masters, but they need friends. Similarly - in dogs.


:crazy::crazy:


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

J and J M said:


> How can you raise a child if you can't raise a dog.



Way wrong thing to say...On so many levels....Just...oh forget it,, you will never understand anyhow..


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

loveecho said:


> i'm all for trying to manage an aggressive dog, but having a newborn is not conducive to the level of management required. It will not be fair to anyone involved- the owners or the dog.
> 
> Do i think the dog could thrive in a more experienced house? Yes. Do i fault the op? Not at all. It has nothing to do with "not doing research", and whoever posted that must be the genius here. Some dogs are wired wrong. Some dogs are too much for the specific handler. Neither of those things is the fault of the person, who may have done all kinds of research about the physical and mental needs of a gsd. I consider myself an experienced handler and would have a tough time with a dog like this. Having a dog with aggression issues is not the "norm" and has nothing to do with having a gsd. The fact that their first course of action was to find a trainer who had supposed accolades is a good thing and shows how proactive they are.
> 
> Op- i think rehoming would be in everyone's best interest. There is no quick fix for this sort of problem, and "diagnosing" over the internet is pretty much impossible (despite how many people think they know it all). Whatever the root of the aggression (and i do think it's more than resource guarding), it is going to be a major management issue. It's not fair to you, to have to worry about the baby and worry about the dog, it's not fair to the baby to even remotely be at risk, and it's not fair to the dog. I would recommend first contacting the breeder and seeing if they have a line on a home that has the experience, time, and willingness to manage and go from there.


yes


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> Please, describe the danger. I would like to know about situation how possibly a newborn could be bitten. When the newborn will start walking the dog would be an adult already and behave like an adult towards a puppy of the pack, and, as an agressive type, he, most likely will turn overprotective.


:headbang::headbang::thumbsdown::thinking:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Mr Taggart is not from the US, so he probably doesn't read our newspapers or watch the news here, where there have been ALOT of newborns/young children killed by the family "pet".. 

Maybe the dogs where he is from don't do this, but it sure happens here.

I would not trust this dog with a newborn or a child.

And J&M,,very very poor taste in your statement ..

This is not a "puppy" per se,,it's an almost full grown powerful dog at 8 months of age. 

When a dog decides it has no respect for it's owner, that's it..We would have a "come to owner" moment if one of mine did that..and they know it early on..However, aggression like this, can be amped up with aggressive moves from an owner..Or they can "get it" and move on, problem solved.

These owners have a dog they can't handle, and have a couple of options

1. Return him to the breeder
2. Get some professional help asap , which I don't think the one they used will help much, tho I do see he was trying to elicit a reaction in order to correct, not my way of doing things, but I suppose it can work for certain dogs.
3. Rehome him with someone who is qualified
4. Euthanize him


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> Please, describe the danger. I would like to know about situation how possibly a newborn could be bitten. When the newborn will start walking the dog would be an adult already and behave like an adult towards a puppy of the pack, and, as an agressive type, he, most likely will turn overprotective.


Please read..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/harry-harper-gran-haunted-death-1820560

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1528857

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1442092

http://www.examiner.com/article/tragic-mistake-leads-to-newborn-being-killed-by-family-dog

http://hollywoodlife.com/2012/09/26...-pit-bull-infant-police-domestic-disturbance/

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Newborn-dead-after-family-dog-attacks-2155225.php

There are hundreds of cases of infants being killed by loved family pets that had no previous aggressions displayed and ALL above are NEWBORNS.

This is why your advice could be very dangerous.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Such shy animals are in all circumstances an encumbrance to their owner, who must be ashamed of such a dog, and a disgrace to their race. Under no circumstances whatever must they be used for breeding, however noble and striking they may appear.


These words are insane. Dogs never ever were bred for their kindness to every man, every woman and every baby. It is in their nature to think about us, humans, as their food, because they are the preditors. We fool them by taking them away from their mothers before they remember anything. Many of us provide our babies with a soft toy. And when the toy grows into a beast, we disagree with his nature. But why? I can tell you why. Because we are scared of dogs. Mainly the humans are driven by instincts, that is only our culture which persuades us to pet an unknown dog, our instincts tell the opposite. The first thought is - to make to the tree and climb, as the ape would do in situation. And many do climb. When young. It is more natural for humans to be afraid of the dog, than to love him. In order to kill our instinctive fear - we better breed a creature out of the dog which: a) never bites; 2) never barks;3) friendly to strangers; 4) has inborn love to all sorts of children; 5) has a good coat for photography. One of such breeds does exist - that is American Cocker Spaniel. A dog for everybody.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

J and J M said:


> How can you raise a child if you can't raise a dog.


what a freaking ignorant punk.

i commend anyone who tries their best and puts in a lot of effort and money to try to fix/rehabilitate their dog. it speaks volume of a persons character. its sad to see such badly bred dogs in the world. in my opinion if you keep this dog then you're going to have to manage it for the next decade. a sound and stable dog shouldnt have this much aggression. i'd give him to a very experience person or put him to sleep. having him constantly be either in fear or angry and barking and lunging at people doesnt seem like a happy dog. sometimes its better to put a dog to sleep than to let it continue to "suffer".


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Taggart said:


> These words are insane. Dogs never ever were bred for their kindness to every man, every woman and every baby. It is in their nature to think about us, humans, as their food, because they are the preditors. We fool them by taking them away from their mothers before they remember anything. Many of us provide our babies with a soft toy. And when the toy grows into a beast, we disagree with his nature. But why? I can tell you why. Because we are scared of dogs. Mainly the humans are driven by instincts, that is only our culture which persuades us to pet an unknown dog, our instincts tell the opposite. The first thought is - to make to the tree and climb, as the ape would do in situation. And many do climb. When young. It is more natural for humans to be afraid of the dog, than to love him. In order to kill our instinctive fear - we better breed a creature out of the dog which: a) never bites; 2) never barks;3) friendly to strangers; 4) has inborn love to all sorts of children; 5) has a good coat for photography. One of such breeds does exist - that is American Cocker Spaniel. A dog for everybody.


I don't think I have ever been speechless.....you have forever changed me and I will never get back the few minutes it took me to read your post.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> These words are insane. Dogs never ever were bred for their kindness to every man, every woman and every baby. It is in their nature to think about us, humans, as their food, because they are the preditors. We fool them by taking them away from their mothers before they remember anything. Many of us provide our babies with a soft toy. And when the toy grows into a beast, we disagree with his nature. But why? I can tell you why. Because we are scared of dogs. Mainly the humans are driven by instincts, that is only our culture which persuades us to pet an unknown dog, our instincts tell the opposite. The first thought is - to make to the tree and climb, as the ape would do in situation. And many do climb. When young. It is more natural for humans to be afraid of the dog, than to love him. In order to kill our instinctive fear - we better breed a creature out of the dog which: a) never bites; 2) never barks;3) friendly to strangers; 4) has inborn love to all sorts of children; 5) has a good coat for photography. One of such breeds does exist - that is American Cocker Spaniel. A dog for everybody.


Do you know who wrote those words..


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Do you know who wrote those words..


Apparently, Mr. Taggart thinks von Stephanitz was insane and had no idea what he was doing.


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> One of such breeds does exist - that is American Cocker Spaniel. A dog for everybody.


This is the ONLY type of dog that's EVER snapped at me!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

kjdreyer said:


> This is the ONLY type of dog that's EVER snapped at me!


My husband had one. She bit several people.:crazy:


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If the dog is anything like how he sounds and is PB with papers I would sell him to a working / sport home.
> 
> A helper I know had a male that had some social aggression. It started similar type nonsense with his wife. He set up the dog to do it again..(wont tell you what happened next ). The dog avoided him for a couple days afterwards..and never again tried that nonsense with his wife. Message was recieved loud and clear. He continued to keep and work the dog afterwards and still owns him I believe with no further issues.
> 
> Many owners these days probably would have done the old cookie and clicker stuff or gone to a trainer who sells that type of training. Got bitten a few more times and PTS the dog because he was so "aggressive" and "they did all they could do".



The one top end sport trainer I know that did this ended up with a decent competition dog, but it also ended up being a dog that wanted to KILL him, and would of probably killed him had his ecollar ever come off.


As well I think you would still be hard pressed to find a working home. Just because he's purebred doesnt say anything about what kind of breeding he comes from. I dont know a single competitor that would want to take on a dog like this. Why waste the time or money when you can buy a decent dog from a good breeder and likely have better results all around?

I trained with someone that did pp work, lots of work with local PDs, and was a top schutzhund judge/decoy. So my case was not a simple euthanasia just because the clicker did not work.

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Anubis_Star said:


> The one top end sport trainer I know that did this ended up with a decent competition dog, but it also ended up being a dog that wanted to KILL him, and would of probably killed him had his ecollar ever come off.
> 
> As well I think you would still be hard pressed to find a working home. Just because he's purebred doesnt say anything about what kind of breeding he comes from. I dont know a single competitor that would want to take on a dog like this. Why waste the time or money when you can buy a decent dog from a good breeder and likely have better results all around?
> 
> ...




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## Redrider469 (Jul 19, 2013)

AXO said:


> My Sampson was the same way at 8 months old. Having an American German Shepherd prior, We had no idea and received a fast reality check with Sampson who was a German import with a long pedigree of working line.
> 
> He bit my 16 year old daughter while she was engaged in a physical fight with my 14 year old daughter. I was outside and was not present for the bite. My daughter had 4 deep puncture wounds in her left shoulder.
> 
> ...


Best reply I've heard to this thread yet.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Redrider469 said:


> Best reply I've heard to this thread yet.


The situation of which Sampson bit a family member is very different of that of the OP of th is thread.

Not all dogs that bite should be rehomed, returned to breeder, or euthanized. Each situation is that of it's own, some an explanation fully explains the reasons why...some do not. Some are poor breeding resulting in unstable temperaments and some like above are where an immature dog misinterprets. Very very different for each.


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## Redrider469 (Jul 19, 2013)

Saphire said:


> The situation of which Sampson bit a family member is very different of that of the OP of th is thread.
> 
> Not all dogs that bite should be rehomed, returned to breeder, or euthanized. Each situation is that of it's own, some an explanation fully explains the reasons why...some do not. Some are poor breeding resulting in unstable temperaments and some like above are where an immature dog misinterprets. Very very different for each.


I should have been more specific. I believe one on one training with a good trainer is definitely a good suggestion. Rather than the trainer handling the dog, the owners need to take an active role in the training and corrections. With one month to go, that may be a tall order.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Redrider469 said:


> I should have been more specific. I believe one on one training with a good trainer is definitely a good suggestion. Rather than the trainer handling the dog, the owners need to take an active role in the training and corrections. With one month to go, that may be a tall order.


Most definitely....training never ends so I would agree to be successful the owners must be involved. One month timeline may be impossible and energy levels and time will dramatically drop after baby is born.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I know nothing about your case and was not commenting on it. My simple point was that the dog may do well in the right hands. If the dog has papers and comes from decent lines Im sure a buyer could be found. Some very notable dogs that have been used heavily were known for social aggression and coming up the lead. 



Anubis_Star said:


> The one top end sport trainer I know that did this ended up with a decent competition dog, but it also ended up being a dog that wanted to KILL him, and would of probably killed him had his ecollar ever come off.
> 
> 
> As well I think you would still be hard pressed to find a working home. Just because he's purebred doesnt say anything about what kind of breeding he comes from. I dont know a single competitor that would want to take on a dog like this. Why waste the time or money when you can buy a decent dog from a good breeder and likely have better results all around?
> ...


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## RosePetals (Sep 29, 2013)

Three words for you:

*Call Cesar Millan*


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

I doubt OP is going to come back and read 10 pages of people arguing back and forth about their dog that none of us have any solid info on other than it has bitten numerous times.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> One of such breeds does exist - that is American Cocker Spaniel. A dog for everybody.


I was bitten 3 times as a kid by this breed... 3 different dogs, too. One of them came into my room while I was asleep just to bite me on my hand, that one was the worst. I love dogs but this is the one breed that I just really don't care for at all, lol.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> These words are insane. Dogs never ever were bred for their kindness to every man, every woman and every baby. It is in their nature to think about us, humans, as their food, because they are the preditors. We fool them by taking them away from their mothers before they remember anything. Many of us provide our babies with a soft toy. And when the toy grows into a beast, we disagree with his nature. But why? I can tell you why. Because we are scared of dogs. Mainly the humans are driven by instincts, that is only our culture which persuades us to pet an unknown dog, our instincts tell the opposite. The first thought is - to make to the tree and climb, as the ape would do in situation. And many do climb. When young. It is more natural for humans to be afraid of the dog, than to love him. In order to kill our instinctive fear - we better breed a creature out of the dog which: a) never bites; 2) never barks;3) friendly to strangers; 4) has inborn love to all sorts of children; 5) has a good coat for photography. One of such breeds does exist - that is American Cocker Spaniel. A dog for everybody.


With respect to the man who said those words I've seen studies that suggest he is very very wrong. There are genetic tendencies in dogs to be more agreeable to people. It is a behavior trait that can be selected for. There was an arctic fox breeding project where they were able to very quickly within 2-3 generations produce foxes that were domesticated. They were also able to produce super aggressive "werefoxes" that people couldn't get anywhere near. I'm pretty certain you can't just take a baby wolf from its mother in the wild and domesticate it. It just won't work.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I was bitten 3 times as a kid by this breed... 3 different dogs, too. One of them came into my room while I was asleep just to bite me on my hand, that one was the worst. I love dogs but this is the one breed that I just really don't care for at all, lol.


I've known them to bark their asses off too


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Baillif said:


> With respect to the man who said those words I've seen studies that suggest he is very very wrong. There are genetic tendencies in dogs to be more agreeable to people. It is a behavior trait that can be selected for. There was an arctic fox breeding project where they were able to very quickly within 2-3 generations produce foxes that were domesticated. They were also able to produce super aggressive "werefoxes" that people couldn't get anywhere near. I'm pretty certain you can't just take a baby wolf from its mother in the wild and domesticate it. It just won't work.


:banghead:

It was a russian silver fox project and it took 14 generations (roughly 30-40 years of selective breeding) to produce a domesticated animal. Nor did they produce "werefoxes" or anything of the like....

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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> With respect to the man who said those words I've seen studies that suggest he is very very wrong. There are genetic tendencies in dogs to be more agreeable to people. It is a behavior trait that can be selected for. There was an arctic fox breeding project where they were able to very quickly within 2-3 generations produce foxes that were domesticated. They were also able to produce super aggressive "werefoxes" that people couldn't get anywhere near. I'm pretty certain you can't just take a baby wolf from its mother in the wild and domesticate it. It just won't work.


You can but the pups must be interacted with almost 24/7 from birth and especially after the first 4 weeks. Cant remember which University but they did a study with wolf pups.

...lol why are we talking about wolves?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I stand corrected then. I haven't seen the show I saw it on in a while and didn't remember correctly. In any case the OP hasn't been back since her second post, so we've been mostly playing with matches around the powder keg for the last few pages here anyway. 

In any case the point wasn't about behavior per se it was that the result of the domestication was the result of selective breeding not nurture as the quote suggested so I didn't think it was that much of a stretch.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

trainer is going to make your dog so fearful or fear aggressive


your dog is only 8 months old with this sort of method when he matures he will be a monster the worst liability


if you want to keep this dog start practicing NILF and make sure you feed the dog one kibble at a time always with your hands dont feed him in a bowl ever anymore for a while.


ALso dont give him anything unless he shows extreme OB, its very hard you are going through some changes.


we put person just like your dog did, that brings out aggression, you do this with an unbalnced dog the dog can become very dangerous OR if you put too much pressure the dog at such a young age goes into avoidence and can become fearful.

a scared dog that bites = a very dangerous dog


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Saphire said:


> I don't think I have ever been speechless.....you have forever changed me and I will never get back the few minutes it took me to read your post.




David many gsds are bred that way now also lol


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You can but the pups must be interacted with almost 24/7 from birth and especially after the first 4 weeks. Cant remember which University but they did a study with wolf pups.
> 
> ...lol why are we talking about wolves?




I agree that was 10 thousand years of domestication. I have seen wolves in the wild and been up close to captive tame wolves they are nothing like any of my dogs the noise they make is the strangest thing ever its like a hyena and they remind me of cats kinda also so silent. I am talking real grey wolves. Not the wolves people pretend they have that are really just a husky sled dog that looks like a wolf.


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

Four pups to expand Bays Mountain wolf pack | Kingsport Times-News




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You can but the pups must be interacted with almost 24/7 from birth and especially after the first 4 weeks. Cant remember which University but they did a study with wolf pups.
> 
> ...lol why are we talking about wolves?



Since OP hasn't replied and we are on the subject of wolves. I live 45 mins from this park. It's a nice little place. A treat to watch the wolves. .


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

For peoples information, the silver fox experiment took 8 generations to produce an animal which is affectionate with humans. Note that is using one percent of the population of foxes which already showed a lack of fear of humans. This means that these 1% of foxes already possessed domestic traits. 

Fox experiment at around 35 minutes in





Edit, At 31 minutes, an experiment shows wolf pups can't be raised to be a nice normal pet


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Sounds closer to what I remember, I didn't think I was that far off.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

And they did breed specifically for super aggressive foxes maybe you should bang your head on objects less you'd remember more.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Baillif said:


> And they did breed specifically for super aggressive foxes maybe you should bang your head on objects less you'd remember more.


Tame behavior vs domestication is a HUGE difference. Actual domestication entails not only complete behavioral change but physical changes as well, spotting and markings, dropped ears, curled tails, etc... as well proving that aggressive parents produce aggressive offspring is hardly "killer werefox"

The fact that you also said they produced completely domesticated animals in a single breeding in one breath and you can't take a wolf from it's dam and have a tame animal in the next is very contradicting

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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Where did I say you could produce completely domesticated animals in a single breeding? There goes that selective memory again. Werefox was obviously meant semi facetiously as they aren't half human and come out on full moons but apparently that went over your head.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Some species can never be completely domesticated. It depends on the amount of genetic variability within the species, and whether they have "domestication" genes. For example, good luck domesticating the wolverine or the polar bear (taming is something else entirely). 

Modern dogs have immense genetic variability shown in coat color and length, and size, from the tiniest terrier to the largest Kangal dog. Genetic variability is also seen in workability from the aloof sheep guardian dog to the independently driven sled dog to the intensely human-focused malinois.

While foxes apparently have some genetic variability, modern dogs are unique in that they often (almost always if raised right) value their human companions more than canine ones. As a genetic trait. That is pretty incredible.


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

I think your pup is much too young for this kind of training and it needs a different approach. Mine was dealt with harshly with one trainer but not like this. We changed trainers and he said she was overcorrected and was wincing with hand movements. They were much better at correcting the behavior while watching the body language preceeding a lunge, but it was a quick tug on a pinch collar after a "no" if she didn't listen.
Please get another trainer. GSDs are also so sensitive and agression can breed agression.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Baillif said:


> There was an arctic fox breeding project where they were able to very quickly within 2-3 generations produce foxes that were domesticated.


If 2 generations can make an animal donesticated surly 1 generation would be tame

Obviously you didnt say single breeding, but 2 breedings is just as unbelievable. The fact that you continue to attack my "memory" when every single thing you said was completely off is a little off. I understand if it was something you saw in passing years ago, but people really shouldnt give advice and spew facts about things they honestly have no idea about


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

** comment removed by ADMIN. Please find a more appropriate way to express yourself or you will receive a formal warning.**


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ive seen so called tame pet raccoons turn aggressive at 2 or 3 years and mutilate their owners, but they were so friendly and loving at first when being bottle raised to that age.


A lot of species can be tame as a baby but what they will do to you when they start to mature and their wild instincts kick in you dont know. Or do to your house.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

**deleted quote removed**

You said 2-3 generations. I said 14 generations for domestication and it is indeed 14 generations. I have the actual pdf of the study if you would like to read it, it is VERY interesting. You said arctic fox. It was russian silver foxes (which I pointed out). I was exactly correct on all accounts because I have gone over this study extensively. Nor was I necessarily trying to be a complete ass to you, so I do apologize for that. It just blows my mind sometime how people can throw out "facts" that they may or may not of heard years ago, and be so completely wrong. Which is fine, I dont remember half the stuff I heard yesterday. But instead of stating something like it is a known fact, simply say "I think I heard something along these lines -"

That and even the mere suggestion that a wild fox could be domesticated in 2 generations. ...

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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

russian silver fox is just a red fox that is colored silver I think 


Like some wolves are black and some are white 


its just as sub species of red fox (I think at least) It has to be.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

pets4life said:


> russian silver fox is just a red fox that is colored silver I think
> 
> 
> Like some wolves are black and some are white
> ...


Yes they used the silver morph of the red fox that is common in the area

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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

?????????????? Raising children and raising dogs are absolutely nothing alike! I've raised two sons to adulthood and many, many dogs and there is no common ground here. Amazingly stupid comment!


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I would argue that being fair and consistent goes a long way in raising dogs and sons, no matter how amazingly stupid you think it is. I bet animal and human psychologists would probably agree.


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## Arlene/Archer (Mar 7, 2013)

crackem said:


> I would argue that being fair and consistent goes a long way in raising dogs and sons, no matter how amazingly stupid you think it is. I bet animal and human psychologists would probably agree.


I doubt they would. I've raised a 22 year old girl to be a kind, intelligent and generous human (and various dogs over the years), and I still think it's still a ridiculous comment. There is no true conflation of the two. Humans reason and view things on a very different level to our beloved four legged friends. The comment was mean spirited and had no real place in the discussion.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

it may have been mean spirited, doesn't mean that being fair and consistent shouldn't be the basis for any child or dog raising you might want to do. 

You disagree that being fair and consistent aren't hugely important in raising dogs or kids?

and it isn't funny how these threads go after a few days? the OP hasn't even been back and we're on how many side bars already?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

My sister always jokes that if I had kids they would be very well behaved because I would treat them just like my dogs haha

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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

honestly, I find that raising dogs and raising kids have a lot in common at their core. 
teaching expected behavior, teaching consequences will occur for bad behavior, being fair and consistent with both expectations and consequences and not reacting out of anger.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Practicing NILIF is great for managing both canines and kiddo's(especially when they reach the teen years)


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> Practicing NILIF is great for managing both canines and kiddo's(especially when they reach the teen years)


It works well on husbands too! 

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

While I find a lot of similarities in working with children as in working with dogs, in the context of this thread, and the way the comment was phrased, it should have ticked off everyone, as it was probably meant to do. 

And someone is out there still having a jolly time watching us continue to discuss it.


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## Kati (Oct 2, 2013)

I'd agree with the consistency and fairness thing. Even though dogs think differently from us I think we share a sense of justice and know when it's not been handed out. 

I have a four year old GSD that I adopted 5 months ago. She has grumbled at two men in the last few days, one my neighbour that she has been fine with before. I live alone with her and wonder if she is getting to feel too protective towards me. Does anyone have any ideas? Should she go to kennels one day a week for example?

My last dog I regularly confined to his kennel every day for a couple of hours to stop him "claiming" the house. Should I do the same with her - would it help?

RIP Jade Anderson mauled to death by four (unsupervised) dogs in the home of a friend in the UK. Owner yesterday was sentenced to four months suspended (the harshest sentence British law allows - at the moment)


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## staceyc842 (Oct 10, 2013)

Sorry its taken me so long to respond...

We've done alot of talking with this particular trainer. Since the day that he antagonized Maverick into biting and then corrected the biting, we haven't done training like that. Every training session has been walking on leash (with choker collar), sits, downs, and stays. When maverick is in the house, he keeps his choker collar on with a 4 inch dog tab so that we can "correct" him when he bites. He hasn't shown any aggressive tendencies to me or my husband since then, but he does bite when he gets bored or wants to play. The trainer's thought process is that before we can correct the majority of the biting, we need to put someone in charge. With me being as pregnant as I am, I'm not in the best condition to be dealing with correcting a 90 pound puppy (he's a big boy). So my husband does all the training and yes I go and watch. We still do training everyday and when my husband is home, he's pretty good. He listens to him and hardly ever has to be told things more than once. When my husband is at work, however, its another story. I have no authority over him so he takes advantage of that. The trainer says that once he learns the commands and what is right and wrong, then it will be my turn to do the power struggle. I still correct him, but it takes alot more corrections from me than my husband. 

Those of you that talked about owning a german shepherd blah blah... I know what comes from a german shepherd. He is not my first, he is actually my 4th. My family bred them as I was growing up and we kept one out of the litters. We did donate 1 of the 3 to the police K-9 department and ended up giving the last puppy to a family, but we kept one until she died at 15.

A few talked about his breeding. I'm not sure what information you wanted to see... but his father's AKC number is DN05848408 and his mothers is DN25285702.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What are their registered names? I agree with the trainer, you need to step up your authority and at the same time have a good bond with the pup to succeed. Praise and corrections should be balanced. Make sure you are praising him often!


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## staceyc842 (Oct 10, 2013)

Sire: 
Gunner Z Westwood

Dam:
Bella Dazzee


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Possibly you aren't describing what he was doing accurately due to your untrained eye, and possibly he was doing some poorly conceived form of horrible table/back tie training used to teach a protection dog when aggression is allowed and when it is not


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