# Vaccinating your litter



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

What vaccines do you give to your pups before you send them on their way to their new homes?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

at 6 weeks at the earliest you can give the 5-way shot consisting of Parvovirus, distemper, parainfluenza, Adeno virus type-2

Ultimately you want to have about 3 weeks between each shot. So atleast having the first set of shots before they go to a new home is optimal.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Parvo and Distemper.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I follow Dr Jean Dodds recommendations. You can google it. I only vaccinate against parvo/distemper and that is only done around 7-8 wks the first time. I only have one bitch and she gets sequestered when breeding. Dont want to contract K9 herpes virus either and loose pups.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the distemper and parvo are all I am planning for these litters....Kristi went to a Dr. Dodds seminar this summer and we are going to follow her protocals for Hexe's and Csabres pups.

Lee


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks to those who have answered, I'm so happy to see breeders getting away from the 5 and 7 in 1's and just vaccinating for Parvo and Distemper!!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have a rescue and have been using 5-ways for the past 4yrs. with no issues.

We follow these guidelines and we also deworm regularly. 
That said, we usually start them at 6-7 weeks so they are due for the next in the series in their new homes, but have had one vaccine. If an orphaned litter that did not nurse, we start them when we get them in.

Community Practice Vaccination Protocols from the College of Veterinary Medicine

I realize you said breeders but thought I'd share our perspective


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I only give the Fort Dodge puppy shot (distempter, hepatitis, adenovirus and parvo) at 8 weeks of age. None of my puppies leave until after they get this shot at 8 weeks of age and I only give a four way for that first shot.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Too lazy to look this up...what does the 4 way leave out that the 5 way has?
We've only ever used 5-ways in rescue and with our own dogs, here. We don't have a big issue with lepto and corona is advised against on WSU's website.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

In Australia the C5 (5 way vax) includes parvo, distemper, hepatitis, parainfluenza and Bordatella bronchiseptica, the two causes of "kennel cough"..


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

Is it true you need to wait until the puppies are done nursing from the dam because of the antibodies in her milk, thus giving their shots as early as possible is counterproductive? The antibodies in the milk would interfere with the vaccines given, so why are they give at 5-6 weeks old?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is my theory on it, after speaking with some different vets...the first vaccine theoretically wipes out or "goes to war with" the mother's antibodies. Then the next vaccine goes on to start stimulating the immune system. Since the 1st vaccine (and maybe the 2nd-3rd as well) are just there to battle the mother's immunity, you can then figure that the _next_ vaccine at 8-9 weeks will start to stimulate the immune system. 
If you wait until 8 weeks to do the 1st one, that's 2-3 weeks longer that the immune response can start. 

At least that's how I understand it. Plus mama may not have immunity to, heaven knows, maybe distemper, whatever. That's how we figure in rescue anyway. Not a breeding situation because breeders would have vaccinated mama prior to puppies coming about.


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

Interesting theory! I feel rescue would be different because as you mentioned, you dont know if the dam has the proper immunities to pass on to her pups. But any breeder should be vaccinating prior to breeding. I feel putting unnecessary strain on the puppies immune system at this age CAN have an everlasting effect. I prefer to wait until the puppies are around 8-9 weeks, or even later if they are staying with me, then second shots three weeks later. I firmly believe too many vaccines at a young age can have a devastating effect on their future immune system and it has been questioned on whether or not the current method of vaccinating causes the all too common allergies we see today. I am still very interested in this subject and I always like to read up on new information.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

This is what I have read: Vaccines work by prompting the body to create antibodies to protect against the disease. Puppies have their mother's antibodies still in their system for some period of time that varies from puppy to puppy. The mom's antibodies will prevent the puppy from creating (or needing to create) his/her own antibodies, making the puppy shot worthless if the mom's antibodies are still active.

The mom's antibodies begin to fade and go away some time between 7 weeks and 12 weeks--you could probably test an individual puppy and find out whether the mother's antibodies are still active, but I think most people would find this prohibitively expensive.

So when you vaccinate puppies, you are trying to hit that period when the mother's antibodies are gone but BEFORE the puppy is exposed to the actual disease. That's why you repeat the shots. You are hoping to make sure the puppy is covered before any antibodies are actually needed.

I would prefer to do just distemper and parvo, but I think why my vet normally has on hand is a 3-way shot (distemper/parvo/adenovirus? I'd have to look it up). I've never had a problem with this. 

I take all pups in for a physical exam and their first shots around 8 weeks of age, before they go to their homes.

Christine


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## GSD4LIFE21 (Mar 8, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is what I have read: Vaccines work by prompting the body to create antibodies to protect against the disease. Puppies have their mother's antibodies still in their system for some period of time that varies from puppy to puppy. The mom's antibodies will prevent the puppy from creating (or needing to create) his/her own antibodies, making the puppy shot worthless if the mom's antibodies are still active.
> 
> The mom's antibodies begin to fade and go away some time between 7 weeks and 12 weeks--you could probably test an individual puppy and find out whether the mother's antibodies are still active, but I think most people would find this prohibitively expensive.
> 
> ...


Yes! You can do a titer test to see, but that would be expensive to do on every pup like you said. I agree on waiting until 8 weeks or even 9 weeks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But at 9 weeks you have to wait 3 more weeks to give a 2nd vaccine. That's a critical period unless you keep puppies until 12 weeks, they are in their new homes and people aren't always careful about where they take their new puppy. Even a trip to the pet store could make a puppy come down with parvo. 

We like earlier here, but we also only use 5 ways. For a litter raised by mama, we start them at 6-7 weeks. Then by 9-10 weeks they are on their second vax. We instruct people to not let puppy's feet touch the ground in "high traffic" areas such as rest areas and dog parks. 

Single vax (such as some breeders do) are too cost _in_effective to use.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

None.

My puppies get NO vaccines before they leave my house and I encourage the owners to ONLY get Parvo and Distemper at about 3 months and to get them as SEPARATE shots at least 2 weeks apart.

I'm on my third litter of Cresteds and had no issues up until this one. The kennel inspector came in and within a week my 2 remaining CCs presented with Parvo-like symptoms. The female recovered quickly but the male had a tougher time and we were afraid we were going to lose him. He held out and is now completely fine. 

Funny thing - my older CCs boys Spike and Feugo have never had ANY shots other than Rabies and yet they didn't get sick.

I attribute their immunity to being exposed to the hundreds of dogs that come to our place.

I also attribute the puppies getting sick to them NOT being exposed enough. It got too cold to take them out in our field much and so they didn't get the exposure to the other dogs. That's why I don't purposely breed my CC in the fall or winter (this last breeding was an accident).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Please keep in mind flies can spread parvo. 
You'd never think about that type exposure but it does happen.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I do Parvo and distemper. I used to wait until 9 weeks but after experiencing Parvo, I've done my last couple litters sooner. My litter developed Parvo at 6 weeks old, having never left my house or property. 4 of the 5 affected puppies recovered. The first to get sick did not make it and one puppy never developed any symptoms. FWIW I know several puppies from a litter of 6 month old puppies belonging to a totally "holistic breeder" (raw fed, no vaccines for anyone, no conventional vet care at all) who just came down with parvo and had it not been for extensive conventional vet care, they would not have made it. My dogs are raw fed, weaned onto raw or started on raw when I get them as puppies and very conservatively vaccinated/fairly holistically raised. There is no truth to the theory that such puppies won't get Parvo or recover from it easily on their own. All puppies are susceptible to Parvo because their digestive tracts are still in the process of developing. Parvo is an extremely hardy virus, able to survive a lot of conditions for a long while and able to be tracked into an area pretty easily. It takes an extremely small amount of the virus to cause potentially fatal symptoms in young puppies. Having had good luck so far doesn't really offer much proof supporting the safety of not vaccinating.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> Having had good luck so far doesn't really offer much proof supporting the safety of not vaccinating.


Trust me, I'm not saying it's "safe" to not vaccinate puppies.

But I personally believe the risks of not giving vaccines outweigh the risks of giving them. That's why I don't vaccinate the pups prior to them leaving me. After they leave I TRY to have the owners not vaccinate but not many people believe like I do so I encourage them to go with very minimal vax.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> FWIW I know several puppies from a litter of 6 month old puppies belonging to a totally "holistic breeder" (raw fed, no vaccines for anyone, no conventional vet care at all) who just came down with parvo and had it not been for extensive conventional vet care,


We had a rescue litter, we kept them in a totally separate area of the house because we had a stray brought to us with severe parvo. 
No contact at all, sick pup in ISO, foot washing, etc. Spraying it all down with Trifectant, and bleach. Careful to the max, every precaution.
One of the other litter came down with it - after leaving our home but within the time frame to have gotten it here - which is why I say flies do carry it and can spread it. It had to be a fly (or flies) because we were so careful and everyone ISO'ed. It was fall and flies were bad at that time. 
That particular strain was a very bad one and we almost lost the stray (purebred Vizsla) due to it. The puppy who did come down with it after leaving our home did pass away from it, but primarily because the new owner did not take it in for _three whole days_ after the puppy had symptoms  Parvo kills by dehydration but also a systemic bacterial infection from the ulceration and loss of protective mucous in the digestive tract and this puppy (from what the vet said) died of the resultant sepsis.
Had she been treated from the first symptom (and yes we do educate the new owners but not all "listen" very well) she might have survived.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about how vaccines work or don't work too.

Puppy Shots

Revaccination


There is risk of vaccination of course but for me, I've known far more dogs who had Parvo than dogs who had reactions to Parvo vaccines, let alone fatal or nearly fatal reactions.

My puppies had to have gotten Parvo from it being carried into our yard or home by someone or something. I had read that flies could carry it and certainly wondered if that was a possibility. I'll never know but the experience has certainly changed the way I raise my puppies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

In 10yrs. of doing rescue/shelter/rescue, and vaccinating hundreds of dogs/puppies per year, I have seen _one_ possible reaction to a 5-way. 

I say possible because she was in our yard and it could have been a bee sting. She had no breathing compromise, just swelling which a Benadryl took care of.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am too afraid of parvo/distemper to not vaccinate the litter before they leave, and to ensure that the owners know when to get the next set of vaccines. I give the health record with the puppy, along with the wormer, and I usually do the vaccines early enough that I can mark any possible side effects, that any of the pup's might have. At the same time, I think 6 weeks is probably money down the drain, as I expect the pups are probably working under their mother's immunity, and if not, they are not near any other dogs at that point. So, I figure we are ok to seven weeks.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks for the links...AgileGSD...interesting reading


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> In 10yrs. of doing rescue/shelter/rescue, and vaccinating hundreds of dogs/puppies per year, I have seen _one_ possible reaction to a 5-way.
> 
> I say possible because she was in our yard and it could have been a bee sting. She had no breathing compromise, just swelling which a Benadryl took care of.


The reason we are not vaccinating (over vaccinating) is not about reactions. It is the adverse side affects later in life. Dogs and cats getting cancers, shortened life span, etc. And I know several people will say their dog/cat was vaccinated every year and lived to be 20. Each animal is an individual and should be treated as such. You have to do what is best for that particular animal. There are exceptions. 

Also, rescues may or may not have as tight a gene pool as a breeders dogs would.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

dawnandjr said:


> The reason we are not vaccinating (over vaccinating) is not about reactions. It is the adverse side affects later in life. Dogs and cats getting cancers, shortened life span, etc. And I know several people will say their dog/cat was vaccinated every year and lived to be 20. Each animal is an individual and should be treated as such. You have to do what is best for that particular animal. There are exceptions.
> 
> Also, rescues may or may not have as tight a gene pool as a breeders dogs would.


 Cancers and shortened lifespan are genetic issues in some breeds. 

Like I said, I think over vaccination can be an issue. But Parvo is also a very real threat to puppies. And getting Parvo could cause further helath issues as well. 




selzer said:


> At the same time, I think 6 weeks is probably money down the drain, as I expect the pups are probably working under their mother's immunity, and if not, they are not near any other dogs at that point. So, I figure we are ok to seven weeks.


 That is the age my litter developed Parvo and they never left home. There's also a lot of misconceptions about how Parvo is and is not spread. Puppies can get Parvo having never seen another dog and having never left their home. 

The high titer vaccines are supposed to be able to override the mother's immunity, according to their label.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

With my litter, we vaccinated at 7 weeks for Parvo and Distemper and then again at 9 weeks when the puppies went to the vet before going to their new homes. I wanted them to have at least 2 shots before going to their new homes. I don't do vaccinations on my dogs unless they are required by law...which is Rabies here. I do Titre tests every year and check immunity, so far no one has needed vaccines since I switched to this way 3 years ago. 

My litter has been reported to be very healthy. A few of them are holistic minded people and follow along the same thinking as I do. Others will vaccinate every 3 years and that's that. I don't care which path they choose as long as the dogs are being treated right and are happy and healthy!


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## Billie (Feb 13, 2012)

IMO, its irresponsible for a breeder to not vaccinate a litter , and worse for them to reccomend the puppies NOT get vaccinations....
At my vet, the majority of pups that come in with parvo- have NOT BEEN VACCINATED or not on proper schedule...
My (lab) litters are vaccinated with NEO-PAR (parvo only) at 5-6 weeks. I reccomend starting the vet shots at 8 weeks, and following vet protocol from there. But not stopping prior to 4 mos. 
Maybe for some reason GSDs are different than labs in terms of needing vaccination?, but I know with my GSD pup coming, she will be vaccinated- why risk it, without it....?


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## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

Billie,
Labs are not any different from most other dogs when it comes to what they need/don't need for vaccinations.
I've involved with Labs for over 30yrs & did limited vacs before it was "cool" & I now follow Dr. Dodd's protocol for all my dogs/puppies.


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