# New pup's grade 3 heart murmur



## Moss26 (Oct 6, 2011)

Had my pup's first vet visit this morning and the very first thing out of the doctor's mouth was he has a heart murmur. I have had my 9 week old pup for a week. I am sooo bummed out. I immediately scheduled a cardiologist visit and we leave in an hour to find out what's going on.

Has anyone dealt with a grade 3? I know some dogs live long and others don't, but is there a correlation between the grade and life expectancy - do grades 1 and 2 have a greater chance than 4's and 5's? Does it really just depend on the cause of the murmur?

Then there is the whole issue with the breeder. I'm holding the breeder's vet certificate in my hand - it's a clean bill - how can that be??


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear this about your puppy.

It was disclosed by our breeder that her vet picked up on a grade 2 murmur on my boy. I still wanted him & brought him to my vet who could never hear one, actually had several vets within the same practice listen...nothing. He's now almost two and several vet checks later...still nothing. My fingers are crossed that maybe the initial diagnoses was wrong or he out grew it...I was obsessed & worried about this for a long time.

I'm glad your following through with a cardiologist visit.

What does your contract state about any health issues (breeder return puppy, breeder covers some of the cost for surgery, etc)?


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Wishing for the best for your boy!


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have a heart murmur myself, and my doctors made a huge drama out of it 20 years ago. I did not restrict my activities in any way, did some challenging sports and I am still not having any problems.


----------



## Moss26 (Oct 6, 2011)

So, 3hrs and $450 later I just got home after taking him to the cardiologist. The doctor performed the ultrasound and everything is totally normal. Apparently, he has what is commonly referred to as a "puppy murmur" brought on by the normal growth of his heart and body. I am so relieved you have no idea!

But seriously, what the heck? I feel like I was just put together by the vet and specialist...are they in cahoots! After relaying all this to my breeder, she went nuts and said that I should get a new vet immediately. The breeder said these murmurs are completely normal and puppies grow out of them within 6 months. Aghh, the vet made it seem like he was going to die tomorrow!

Anyways, the important thing is that he is all healthy right. And even if I had spoken to my breeder before going to see the specialist, I probably still would have gone - just to be sure.

This has definitely been a learning experience and you can bet that I will be scrutinizing everything that vet has to say in the future. Now I am off to see if my pet insurance will cover this...

Thanks so much to everyone who responded!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wow, I agree with your opinion:
_But seriously, what the heck? I feel like I was just put together by the vet and specialist...are they in cahoots!_
And of course if you were to ignore the vet, then you'd never know. Did they know you had insurance up front?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

YAY - well what a ripoff but the great news is a normal puppy with a normal puppy heart!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lots of vets "hear" mummers that are really just stress ... apparently many babies seem to have one but really don't....I remember having my one cat looked at by a very very high profile clinician at Penn Vet and he freaked out that the cat had a huge murmmer....after sitting in a room for over an hour waiting for the head cardiologist to listen...the cat had calmed and settled and viola' - no heart murmer...Dr Knight sort of glared at the other vet and said to start off with basics - ended up the cat's problem was diabetes...and his heart was fine....

Lee


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I sold a puppy a little later than usual, at about 14 or 18 weeks, not sure now. 

Anyhow, he went to my vet at 6 weeks, 10 weeks, and 14 weeks, and the vet listened to the heart each time, and never said anything about a problem. I sold the pup with a clean bill of health.

I always encourage people to take the pup to the vet within two weeks of purchase, and will refund the purchase price within two weeks. The buyer did and their vet said that the pup had a heart murmur. The vet said that with all she went through with her previous dog, she should send this one back to the breeder. She called me, she already did not want to give him back and was scheduled to see a cardiologist. 

I told her that I would extend my warranty on the dog and give him some time to grow out of it.

She told me the cardiologist said that everything was there and looked clean, and that likely the pup would out grow this and would be able to do anything she wanted with him.

I called around, both to my friends and my vet, and they said that yes the pup might not have had it during the puppy visits, and yes the pup can grow out of it, and sometimes they do not. 

Three weeks later, she said that the murmur was totally gone. 

I went to his obedience class graduation. 

I don't think it is bad to check out these things, but I am glad that you let the breeder know, and are checking it out. Chances are good he will totally out grow it. If not, then you know, and you might be able to educate yourself on the kinds of things you might be able to do to manage the condition.


----------



## Moss26 (Oct 6, 2011)

Thanks Selzer - sounds like I jumped the gun a little when I implied the breeder was being dishonest... 

However, I do fault the breeder with not warning me ahead of time. She could have easily said "listen, at your first vet visit they may find a slight murmur - just be aware that these are completely normal for pups this age. We didn't hear one, but just in case, I want you to be aware and it is up to you if you want to get it checked out further." 

From what I could tell the vet checked all of three things on the visit with the heart being first. I would have appreciated the heads up about what sounds like a common problem that could occur to a major organ.

@onyxgirl - no, the vet did not know that I had insurance...


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I generally do not mention it to my buyers. I have had one puppy with a murmur ever and the puppy grew out of it. If I were to mention every last possible thing that might happen with the puppy, They would need to attend a three week seminar prior to picking up the dog. 

I think it would be irresponsible to encourage people to totally ignore a heart murmur. They do not all just disappear. It sounds scary, but if my puppy that I purchased had a heart murmur, I would have the dog checked out with a specialist as you did. And I would probably recheck after a number of weeks until the dog gets a clean bill of health, as my people did. 

If your breeder warned you that the vet might find a heart murmur, but they are perfectly normal in puppies and they grow out of them, so don't let them send you to a specialist, and your puppy dropped dead, then you would really be mad at your breeder.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

selzer said:


> ...
> I think it would be irresponsible to encourage people to totally ignore a heart murmur. They do not all just disappear. It sounds scary, but if my puppy that I purchased had a heart murmur, I would have the dog checked out with a specialist as you did. And I would probably recheck after a number of weeks until the dog gets a clean bill of health, as my people did.
> 
> If your breeder warned you that the vet might find a heart murmur, but they are perfectly normal in puppies and they grow out of them, so don't let them send you to a specialist, and your puppy dropped dead, then you would really be mad at your breeder.


I agree with everything Selzer said!!! 

Personally I don't think it's dishonest for a vet to recommend that you go to a specialist for a murmur he has determined to be a Grade 3 which appears to be in the moderate range. I've had a couple pups with Grade 1 murmurs that my vet wanted to keep an eye on, but if she told me to have a cardiologist check it out I would. If the cardiologist said the vet had completely misdiagnosed the murmur as a Grade 3 when in reality it was only a Grade 1 then I would consider changing vets, otherwise I'd say the vet acted appropriately in recommending the 2nd opinion.
01 Heart Murmurs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Moss26 said:


> So, 3hrs and $450 later I just got home after taking him to the cardiologist. The doctor performed the ultrasound and everything is totally normal. Apparently, he has what is commonly referred to as a "puppy murmur" brought on by the normal growth of his heart and body. I am so relieved you have no idea!
> 
> But seriously, what the ****? I feel like I was just put together by the vet and specialist...are they in cahoots! After relaying all this to my breeder, she went nuts and said that I should get a new vet immediately. The breeder said these murmurs are completely normal and puppies grow out of them within 6 months. Aghh, the vet made it seem like he was going to die tomorrow!
> 
> ...


I'm happy to hear your puppy got a clean bill of health!


----------



## Moss26 (Oct 6, 2011)

selzer said:


> If I were to mention every last possible thing that might happen with the puppy, They would need to attend a three week seminar prior to picking up the dog.


So, do you warn or advise your new owners about anything when they are about to get their new puppy from you?


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

So glad to hear that your little fellow is a-ok.


----------



## Moss26 (Oct 6, 2011)

arycrest said:


> I agree with everything Selzer said!!!
> 
> Personally I don't think it's dishonest for a vet to recommend that you go to a specialist for a murmur he has determined to be a Grade 3 which appears to be in the moderate range. I've had a couple pups with Grade 1 murmurs that my vet wanted to keep an eye on, but if she told me to have a cardiologist check it out I would. If the cardiologist said the vet had completely misdiagnosed the murmur as a Grade 3 when in reality it was only a Grade 1 then I would consider changing vets, otherwise I'd say the vet acted appropriately in recommending the 2nd opinion.
> 01 Heart Murmurs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


I guess my frustration comes from my confusion about who to trust and how common the puppy murmurs are in young puppies. 

I had two polar opposite reactions yesterday from three professionals in the industry: 

- the vet made it seem like I could lose the dog in a matter of a week - she said "it's been a while since I have heard a heart murmur that loud."

- then I had the breeder saying "vets always do that, you should have called me first - you need to get another vet - they don't know what they are talking about - heart murmurs are very common in young pups - this is ridiculous" 

- then the cardiologist saying "yeah, it is no big deal - your dog's fine and his heart is completely healthy - this is a common development phase that young puppies go through with the heart valves compressing on each other - it will work itself out as the pup grows - really nothing to worry about". 

Do you see how confusing this is for a new owner??

Of course I am going to err on the side of caution with my dog...but maybe I would have waited until the next vet visit to see if it went away and saved $450 if I knew this was _such_ a common diagnosis. I'm a newbie with all this and feel like I was taken advantage of by not getting all the information up front - just the absolute worse case scenario by the vet. 

Does this make sense?


----------



## Heidij (Dec 6, 2011)

I got my pup with a grade 2. The murmur is _commonly caused when the hole in the heart that by-passes the lungs when the puppy is in the womb hasn't fully closed. It takes a little time, which is why most breeders and vets don't mention a little off sound. My dog is almost 6 months and hers hasn't gone away. Luckily, my vet has a heart murmur himself, so he is very well versed on the subject. His recommendation was to wait until 6 months, see if it goes away, then get the ultra-sound to determine the cause. He said she would live a full healthy life, but she would tire a little easier than some dogs, and probably wouldn't be good at high energy sports (bite work) because of this. So, for anyone who gets a dog with a murmur, my advice...
1. relax, breathe... the dog is not going to die
2. if your vet seems to be freaking out, find another vet.
3. If the dog is eating, drinking, and playing and is under 6 months, don't worry about running straight to the cardiologist (unless you have lots of money to spend)._


----------



## Moss26 (Oct 6, 2011)

Heidij said:


> I got my pup with a grade 2. The murmur is _commonly caused when the hole in the heart that by-passes the lungs when the puppy is in the womb hasn't fully closed. It takes a little time, which is why most breeders and vets don't mention a little off sound. My dog is almost 6 months and hers hasn't gone away. Luckily, my vet has a heart murmur himself, so he is very well versed on the subject. His recommendation was to wait until 6 months, see if it goes away, then get the ultra-sound to determine the cause. He said she would live a full healthy life, but she would tire a little easier than some dogs, and probably wouldn't be good at high energy sports (bite work) because of this. So, for anyone who gets a dog with a murmur, my advice...
> 1. relax, breathe... the dog is not going to die
> 2. if your vet seems to be freaking out, find another vet.
> 3. If the dog is eating, drinking, and playing and is under 6 months, don't worry about running straight to the cardiologist (unless you have lots of money to spend)._


_

Yes, agreed!_


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I had an adult ASL female with a grade 3 murmur back in the 80's. She came from a good and active show breeder who had many champions (not a BYB).

So I know how you felt....

Having said that...I wish we would have had the technology available to diagnose with such precision as you had for your puppy.

So I would say, in answer to your question when it comes to owning animals these sort of things happen...and good breeders are screening for many many serious problems now a days that they didn't used to. So perhaps rather then feeling frustrated be grateful because it could have been worse....

A suggestion I have is you may want to chat with your vet about the fact your are on a budget, that you are willing to go to more advanced care if needed but those decisions should be made more carefully between he and you. I've had this talk with a couple of vets in the past....it helps.

I'm glad your puppy is doing well and going to be fine. 



Moss26 said:


> I guess my frustration comes from my confusion about who to trust and how common the puppy murmurs are in young puppies.
> 
> I had two polar opposite reactions yesterday from three professionals in the industry:
> 
> ...


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Moss26, my vet was calm about the whole thing and said we will keep a close eye on this...and every visit we discussed it & he was checked. But I am a worrier by nature and should have saved myself alot of stress and did what you did and had a cardiologist visit...for me it would have been worth my peace of mind very early on...like I mentioned in my previous post I was so stressed out over it. *sigh*


----------



## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Heidij said:


> So, for anyone who gets a dog with a murmur, my advice...
> 1. relax, breathe... the dog is not going to die
> 2. If the dog is eating, drinking, and playing and is under 6 months, don't worry about running straight to the cardiologist (unless you have lots of money to spend).


Most of the time this is true. Then there are the rarer cases where the defect is more severe, but still is only diagnosed by a murmur. Those puppies _can_ drop dead with no warning. Like most health issues, you just have to weigh cost/benefit and do what you're comfortable with.

(Me, I'm paranoid about these things so I spend the money and hope I'm wasting it.)


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Moss26 said:


> So, do you warn or advise your new owners about anything when they are about to get their new puppy from you?


I do. 

I try to warn them about stuff they need to get through the first week safely. Like, don't take the puppy to pet stores or dog parks until they have their second or third set of shots. I talk to each puppy buyer on the phone, usually after e-mails back and fourth, and still the pick up interview takes 1-2 hours easy. 

But you have to be careful not to overwhelm people with a lot of information. Because it is kind of like being told you have cancer, you stop listening. People often have eyes and ears for the cute puppy. So a lot of my info goes in the book that I give them with the puppy. 

Do I go back through the blood lines and tell them every issue each dog had? No. No dogs are perfect. If the pup has a problem we discuss it, but that is only if I know about it, like an umbilical hernia. 

I give a book about GSDs generally with each puppy, and they point out various possible problems.


----------

