# Showing a long coat in AKC conformation?



## kimbale

I was invited to show Wolf in a puppy class at a nearby show at the end of July. The puppy class is for dogs 4 months to 6 months, and I figured why not. It will be fun! That said, Wolf is a WGSL long coat. I'm not looking to win, just to have fun, but want to make sure that a long coat isn't a disqualifying fault for GSDs in the AKC ring. I know it's considered a fault, but does it disqualify the dog? Again, we're just looking to have fun and get exposure.

What are considered disqualifying faults for GSDs in the AKC? I know a lot more about SV than AKC.


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## NancyJ

http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf

Not listed as a disqualification


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## kimbale

NancyJ said:


> http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf
> 
> Not listed as a disqualification


Thanks! I read over the standard but didn't see the Disqualifications section there at the end. Any idea how harshly they fault it?


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## dogfaeries

Depends on the judge. I've seen dogs in the ring that were coats - sometimes they place, sometimes not. If you want to do the 4-6 puppy class, then go have fun!


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## KaiserAus

Interesting. 

We have a separate class/division here for the long stock coats. Or is a long stock coat different to a long coat? They don't look different to me.


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## kimbale

dogfaeries said:


> Depends on the judge. I've seen dogs in the ring that were coats - sometimes they place, sometimes not. If you want to do the 4-6 puppy class, then go have fun!


That's the attitude I'm going in with. I just don't want to get DQed and not even be able to participate. Good to know it depends on the judge and isn't an automatic no-entry. A few of the websites I have read say long coats aren't even allowed in the ring. So confusing.


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## kimbale

KaiserAus said:


> Interesting.
> 
> We have a separate class/division here for the long stock coats. Or is a long stock coat different to a long coat? They don't look different to me.


In AKC, I think GSDs are all shown as one "breed," unlike collies that can be shown as smooth or rough. In the SV, they are two separate types (stock and long coat).


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## dogfaeries

I'm at a show right now. One of our club members showed a coated bi-color bitch this morning. She didn't place, but a lot of other dogs didn't either.


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## Solamar

kimbale said:


> In AKC, I think GSDs are all shown as one "breed," unlike collies that can be shown as smooth or rough. In the SV, they are two separate types (stock and long coat).


I have a SV registered long coat so I have been trying to understand the specifics (just out of curiosity). From what I understand the SV has two coat types - Stockhair and Longstockhair with undercoat. Longhair without undercoat is considered a breed fault, not acceptable for breeding.

Prior to 1999, longstockhair with or without undercoat was a breed fault.

From the 2013 SV Rules for Breeders and Breeding -
"This breed, the German Shepherd Dog, is allowed only two varieties of “Haararten” (coat types):
(1) straight-hair, medium-length topcoat, and (2) Langstockhaarigen (longcoat with woolly undercoat present).
Breeding the harsh-short-coated (normal) with longcoated dogs is not allowed. Dogs from such combinations
can be allowed no entry in the studbook or supplemental registries (Anhangregister). Breeding such dogs is
only allowed with others that are registered as being of the longcoat variety. "

I thought I saw some recent SV rule changes about about longcoats, but can't find it now...

From schaferhund.com - Breed standard

"The Coat

The medium smooth coated German Shepherd Dog - The outer coat should be as thick as possible and composed of straight, coarse hairs that lay close to the body. The coat is short at the toes, but it grows longer and more profuse on the neck. The hair grows longer on the back of the fore and rear legs as far down as the pastern and the hock joint and forms moderate trousers on the thighs. The length of the hair varies and due to these differences in length, there are many intermediate types. A too short mole-like coat is faulty. 

The long smooth coated German Shepherd Dog - The individual hairs are longer, not always straight but definitely not lying close and flat to the body. The coat is considerably longer inside and behind the ears, on the back of the forearm and usually in the loin area. Often there will be tufts behind the ears and feathering from elbow from elbow to pastern. The trousers along the thigh is long and thick. The tail is bushy with light feathering underneath. This coat type is not as weather proof as the medium coat and it is therefore undesirable. However, if there is sufficient undercoat, it may be passed for breeding. Dogs with long coats are commonly narrow chested and have narrow over stretched muzzles. The dog with sufficient undercoat may be passed for breeding, depending upon the rules and regulations of the country. 

The long coated German Shepherd Dog - The hair is appreciably longer that that of the long smooth coated dog and tends to form a parting along the back. If present at all, the undercoating will not be weather proofing nor of utility value and, therefore, should not be passed for breeding."


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## kimbale

Solamar said:


> I have a SV registered long coat so I have been trying to understand the specifics (just out of curiosity). From what I understand the SV has two coat types - Stockhair and Longstockhair with undercoat. Longhair without undercoat is considered a breed fault, not acceptable for breeding.
> 
> Prior to 1999, longstockhair with or without undercoat was a breed fault.
> 
> From the 2013 SV Rules for Breeders and Breeding -
> "This breed, the German Shepherd Dog, is allowed only two varieties of “Haararten” (coat types):
> (1) straight-hair, medium-length topcoat, and (2) Langstockhaarigen (longcoat with woolly undercoat present).
> Breeding the harsh-short-coated (normal) with longcoated dogs is not allowed. Dogs from such combinations
> can be allowed no entry in the studbook or supplemental registries (Anhangregister). Breeding such dogs is
> only allowed with others that are registered as being of the longcoat variety. "
> 
> I thought I saw some recent SV rule changes about about longcoats, but can't find it now...
> 
> From schaferhund.com - Breed standard
> 
> "The Coat
> 
> The medium smooth coated German Shepherd Dog - The outer coat should be as thick as possible and composed of straight, coarse hairs that lay close to the body. The coat is short at the toes, but it grows longer and more profuse on the neck. The hair grows longer on the back of the fore and rear legs as far down as the pastern and the hock joint and forms moderate trousers on the thighs. The length of the hair varies and due to these differences in length, there are many intermediate types. A too short mole-like coat is faulty.
> 
> The long smooth coated German Shepherd Dog - The individual hairs are longer, not always straight but definitely not lying close and flat to the body. The coat is considerably longer inside and behind the ears, on the back of the forearm and usually in the loin area. Often there will be tufts behind the ears and feathering from elbow from elbow to pastern. The trousers along the thigh is long and thick. The tail is bushy with light feathering underneath. This coat type is not as weather proof as the medium coat and it is therefore undesirable. However, if there is sufficient undercoat, it may be passed for breeding. Dogs with long coats are commonly narrow chested and have narrow over stretched muzzles. The dog with sufficient undercoat may be passed for breeding, depending upon the rules and regulations of the country.
> 
> The long coated German Shepherd Dog - The hair is appreciably longer that that of the long smooth coated dog and tends to form a parting along the back. If present at all, the undercoating will not be weather proofing nor of utility value and, therefore, should not be passed for breeding."


Yes, I know the SV standard and how the SV operates. My boy is WGSL and SV registered. I'm wondering about AKC rules, as I have never shown in an AKC show. 

If you have questions about long coats and the SV I can answer a lot of them. Fire away!


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## Solamar

kimbale said:


> Yes, I know the SV standard and how the SV operates. My boy is WGSL and SV registered. I'm wondering about AKC rules, as I have never shown in an AKC show.
> 
> If you have questions about long coats and the SV I can answer a lot of them. Fire away!


:grin2: I missed that in your first post (having lots of SV experience). I've enjoyed the challenge of learning about it, google translate has helped.

Is it still true that the SV won't recognize long coats breeding with standard stock coats? Seems kinda odd.

Sorry, I've got nothing for you regarding AKC :thumbsdown:


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## kimbale

Solamar said:


> :grin2: I missed that in your first post (having lots of SV experience). I've enjoyed the challenge of learning about it, google translate has helped.
> 
> Is it still true that the SV won't recognize long coats breeding with standard stock coats? Seems kinda odd.
> 
> Sorry, I've got nothing for you regarding AKC :thumbsdown:


Yes, you can only breed two stock coats together or two long coats together. It's due to the genes that mark coat type, I believe, and how the react to a breeding of a stock coat and a long coat. Not sure if it's a valid concern, but the SV won't accept a litter from a stock/long breeding.

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## Nurse Bishop

I suppose this prevention of breeding the two coat types is to reduce the likelyhood of long coat puppies popping up in a litter bred from two stock coats or a stock coat showing up in a long coat litter. Longcoats were not accepted at all in SV prior to 1999, is that true? It says their coat is not as weatherproof. Although what I'm googling might be old information.

I'm not going to have Inga bred at all because her eyes are not 'dark as possible'. I'm kind of a stickler for the standard of Max Von Stephanitz. Although I like Inga's lighter eyes because I can easily see what she is looking at.


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## kimbale

Nurse Bishop said:


> I suppose this prevention of breeding the two coat types is to reduce the likelyhood of long coat puppies popping up in a litter bred from two stock coats or a stock coat showing up in a long coat litter. Longcoats were not accepted at all in SV prior to 1999, is that true? It says their coat is not as weatherproof. Although what I'm googling might be old information.
> 
> I'm not going to have Inga bred at all because her eyes are not 'dark as possible'. I'm kind of a stickler for the standard of Max Von Stephanitz. Although I like Inga's lighter eyes because I can easily see what she is looking at.


Long coats pop up in stock coat litters all the time. The longcoat is a recessive gene, so two stock coat parents can produce a longcoat pup if both parents are carriers.

It's true that the SV didn't accept the longcoat length until recently. It's because longcoats are harder to take care of in working situations. For instance, a SAR dog with a longcoat has to be a darn good dog, because the coat is harder to take care of (gets caught and dirty and stickers get all in it) and most handlers would prefer a less high maintenance dog. Also, the original longcoats did not have the undercoat and so were believed to be less weather resistant. 

The SV now accepts them but the AKC still doesn't. 

The SV wants longcoats bred only to longcoats because of a few reasons. One is that it's believed two longcoats will create pups with a nicer, plusher coat. The other is, since the longcoat gene is recessive, breeding longcoats to stock coats could overwhelm the stock coat gene in the bloodlines and after many years of breeding create tons of longcoat carriers and lessen the amount of non-carriers. 

I plan to breed Wolf if he can obtain the titles I want to get on him (IPO, FH, Detection) and he passes all his health tests. He's got an exceptional nose on him and comes from a strong tracking bloodline, and paired with the right female I believe he could produce some great pups. There are a lot of longcoat pet breeders out there, and I'd like to see more working coaties out there.

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## Nurse Bishop

" The SV wants longcoats bred only to longcoats because of a few reasons. One is that it's believed two longcoats will create pups with a nicer, plusher coat. The other is, since the longcoat gene is recessive, breeding longcoats to stock coats could overwhelm the stock coat gene in the bloodlines and after many years of breeding create tons of longcoat carriers and lessen the amount of non-carriers. "

This is what I just said.


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## kimbale

Nurse Bishop said:


> " The SV wants longcoats bred only to longcoats because of a few reasons. One is that it's believed two longcoats will create pups with a nicer, plusher coat. The other is, since the longcoat gene is recessive, breeding longcoats to stock coats could overwhelm the stock coat gene in the bloodlines and after many years of breeding create tons of longcoat carriers and lessen the amount of non-carriers. "
> 
> This is what I just said.


Yeah, I was just reinforcing as you said you didn't know if your information was old/incorrect or not. Also, you mentioned preventing LCs from showing up in stock coat breedings, and that will never happen as long as there are LC carriers out there. Also, many top stock coat dogs in the SV are LC carriers and people want LC pups from those dogs. The SV just wants to make sure they don't oversaturate the bloodlines with carriers. 

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## Trix

As mentioned, it’s just a fault, you can still show. As long as it’s for fun and not your goal to win then go for it! Most people who want to be really competitive just down show long coats because it’s already a fault before they even get started. 


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## Nurse Bishop

I did ask Inga's breeder if any LCs pups had ever ever showed up in any of his dogs. He said no. Its just that I prefer the classic GSD coat and look. But Inga cannot track worth flip. She knows where coyotes have peed and can follow the scent and find a turkey leg, that's it. But all dogs are excellent. Its about mutual love. Go for it!


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## kimbale

Trix said:


> As mentioned, it’s just a fault, you can still show. As long as it’s for fun and not your goal to win then go for it! Most people who want to be really competitive just down show long coats because it’s already a fault before they even get started.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In the AKC, yes, but not in the SV. They are shown in the longcoat class and there is a dedicated working class for longcoats in the SV.

Wolf has already gone to his first Regional SV show and that's the registry we focus on. The AKC stuff was just for fun and exposure and since I know a lot more about the SV rules than the AKC, I asked. Got it all sorted now, though, and we'll remain focused on the SV and IPO trials. 

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## TanegoGSD

kimbale said:


> I was invited to show Wolf in a puppy class at a nearby show at the end of July. The puppy class is for dogs 4 months to 6 months, and I figured why not. It will be fun! That said, Wolf is a WGSL long coat. I'm not looking to win, just to have fun, but want to make sure that a long coat isn't a disqualifying fault for GSDs in the AKC ring. I know it's considered a fault, but does it disqualify the dog? Again, we're just looking to have fun and get exposure.
> 
> What are considered disqualifying faults for GSDs in the AKC? I know a lot more about SV than AKC.


Nope, doesn't disqualify the dog at all. I personally know a LC CH and there are several others.


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