# Oh for crying out loud (Germany is about to ban the prong)



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So not only is the shock collar banned but so called "activists" finally got the prong & co. banned too. 

What's next? Schutzhund itself?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh jeeze, where did you hear about that?

I have to give Germany some credit though, their animal protection laws make Canada look prehistoric.

Still, that sounds excessive. I have no idea what that will do to sch. trainers in Germany.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

blackshep said:


> I have no idea what that will do to sch. trainers in Germany.


The train in the "woods" with e and prong collars


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Packen said:


> The train in the "woods" with e and prong collars



:laugh:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Packen said:


> The train in the "woods" with e and prong collars


Of course, but how the heck are they going to enforce that anyways. The as law itself is already enough as it is, they just need to enforce it. 

There are numerous different sources right now that want the prong being named in the law alongside with the e-collar. There has been a petition going on with 50 000 voices and a suit as far as I know with the judge saying it should be taken into the law. However, some of the politicians say that it's not about the prong being specifically worded but about an enforcement issue so it wouldn't make sense to actually put it into the law because the law itself already says that it is illegal to inflict any pain and damages for training purposes. 

It's a mess right now. 

There has been one awesome report about Schutzhund on the WDR channel and about the positive methods that are now primarily being used and should be used and that the drives are being controlled and that the dogs can actually live out their desires and the drive through the sport and that the sleeve is nothing but a toy. That is how bad it has gotten that the sleeve has to be a toy because of the publics perception that the dogs are turned into sharp attack dogs. They also talked about the soft stick and why it seems that the helper hits the dog. Sometimes I wonder if all these changes have been made because of the dogs or because of the publics pressure and perception. 

If anyone knows German, here is the link. 
Schutzdienstausbildung - Tiere suchen ein Zuhause - WDR Fernsehen


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Sometimes I wonder if all these changes have been made because of the dogs or because of the publics pressure and perception.


Exactly - and how many people who are active in schutzhund want to see the prong banned? Will that push the HS collar out of production, or will they still export, I wonder?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

No, it won't. The funny thing is, even though the e-collar is banned, it isn't illegal to sell or own it, it's only illegal to use it. So it is still being sold. 
The HS collar will not go out of production, not anytime soon, because i'm pretty sure that the prong will still be sold. If they make it illegal they would only make it illegal to wear the spikes inward but not outwards (doesn't make sense, I know).


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Well that's a relief! Thanks for telling me that. I know that the prong collar has been around forever: it's called "torquatus" under the illustration and "forquatus" in the actual text of my translated edition of v. Stephanitz's book. Or called a 'training collar' also.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Problem will be we will not be able to buy good German made prongs anymore


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's ok Sunflowers, Mrs.K. said they would still make them. They're legal to own, so people will still buy them. Yay, we don't have to worry about using crappy imitations, lol.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Blanketback said:


> It's ok Sunflowers, Mrs.K. said they would still make them. They're legal to own, so people will still buy them. Yay, we don't have to worry about using crappy imitations, lol.


Not to mention, they probably sell as many outside of Germany, or more. I think there will always be a way to get them.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

blackshep said:


> Not to mention, they probably sell as many outside of Germany, or more. I think there will always be a way to get them.


Exactly. 

Plus, this was brought to my attention:
Deutscher Bundestag: Regierung will Stachelhalsbänder nicht verbieten

Looks like there are some people with common sense. I apologize that this wasn't available in english. 

This is with the google translator. 
Google Translate


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> That is how bad it has gotten that the sleeve has to be a toy because of the publics perception that the dogs are turned into sharp attack dogs. They also talked about the soft stick and why it seems that the helper hits the dog. Sometimes I wonder if all these changes have been made because of the dogs or because of the publics pressure and perception.


I think that it is probably a feedback loop.

Public perception of SchH may not only change the the sport, but the dogs as well. If they want to portray GSDs as happy dogs playing with toys, that is what the public will want too... and so breeders may cater to that market... and then the sport has to be softened so the dogs can still compete... and softened more by the AR groups... so hardness in the dogs is no longer selected for... ad nauseum.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I think that it is probably a feedback loop.
> 
> Public perception of SchH may not only change the the sport, but the dogs as well. If they want to portray GSDs as happy dogs playing with toys, that is what the public will want too... and so breeders may cater to that market... and then the sport has to be softened so the dogs can still compete... and softened more by the AR groups... so hardness in the dogs is no longer selected for... ad nauseum.


There is a growing "underground" movement that has abandoned SchH and trains dogs to be "real" protections dogs not playing with toys. So long as they keep breeding, real dogs will always exist, albeit be harder to find


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Is pubic perception really driving the changes in Schutzhund? At least around here, the "public" has no idea what Schutzhund is. When they ask "what does your dog do?" and I say "well, mainly Schutzhund and lots of other dog sports..." they say "schutzwhat??" so I explain what it is. I can't say I've ever met someone as part of the general public that 1) knows what Schutzhund is and 2) has an opinion on how it is trained. I do see lots and lots of people who have years of experience doing it driving a change in training style.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Is pubic perception really driving the changes in Schutzhund? At least around here, the "public" has no idea what Schutzhund is. When they ask "what does your dog do?" and I say "well, mainly Schutzhund and lots of other dog sports..." they say "schutzwhat??" so I explain what it is. I can't say I've ever met someone as part of the general public that 1) knows what Schutzhund is and 2) has an opinion on how it is trained. I do see lots and lots of people who have years of experience doing it driving a change in training style.


I think we are talking about Germany.

But it could happen here, too, if it isn't already.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Pubic perception, at the core, drives all men's behaviors lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry, my joke drive has very low threshold for activation


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Is pubic perception really driving the changes in Schutzhund? At least around here, the "public" has no idea what Schutzhund is. When they ask "what does your dog do?" and I say "well, mainly Schutzhund and lots of other dog sports..." they say "schutzwhat??" so I explain what it is. I can't say I've ever met someone as part of the general public that 1) knows what Schutzhund is and 2) has an opinion on how it is trained. *I do see lots and lots of people who have years of experience doing it driving a change in training style.*


I agree. The emphasis is on "happy" and the road to happy is less stress nowadays. When you remove the stress, you lose the ability to see how well the dog can think/function under stress. Ideally, you want temperament that can deal with stress and still be upbeat and cooperative and able to bond with the handler. You also want a dog who can use his aggression and fight drive and not lose his mind. It is a different story teaching "control" when a dog really means it vs when he is playing. The good dogs, they can control themselves in one regard while going "all out" in another.

Of course, there are beasts out there who train dogs and can kill just about any dog's spirit, but.... there were such trainers years ago and many of the dogs could handle it much better than the dogs now. 
There was a level of toughness and a strong desire in the dogs to work for the handler. Those character traits allowed them to overcome the adversity. A GSD should have a certain amount of fortitude and there should be a test that will put it more clearly on display. Either way though, you have to be a trainer to see who your dogs are and the methods matters in that regard. 

I expect my dogs to be able to think when I apply a little stress and I do that from the very start. I prefer to see who they are before they have the benefit of training. The really good dogs work their way through things very quickly. Their attitude is not bruised by it and usually, they take that stress and make some fuel out of it. The good ones have the ability to channel it, without becoming resistent, nasty, frightened or panicked. Only takes a few minutes and they have figured it out and moved on.

These things can't be seen with other methods and that's not saying people should not use them. However, I think breeders should not be looking for the ability to earn points, they should be looking at the dog and actually undertstand what they are seeing. Again, for me, that requires that I train dogs and have an ability, to read them. That is a skill that has been going away for some time now. The emphasis has shifted more to training designed to make the dogs appear to be something that they might not really be.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I expect my dogs to be able to think when I apply a little stress and I do that from the very start. I prefer to see who they are before they have the benefit of training. The really good dogs work their way through things very quickly. Their attitude is not bruised by it and usually, they take that stress and make some fuel out of it. The good ones have the ability to channel it, without becoming resistent, nasty, frightened or panicked.


Yep... the best dogs IMO are the ones that, when given a correction, try HARDER to please you... and if it creates a little stress or conflict, they take it out on the helper and not on you.

If we are forced to use positive methods only and never use corrections or compulsion... you're right, we stop seeing the real dog, and when we cannot see the whole dog, we're missing out on something very important: the ability to withstand stress.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Like i mentioned weeks ago. There is a reason the USMC, the SEALS, etc, don't use positive rewards based training. They are probably by most measures far on the side of compulsion. Very far. But you see the real person, and you know how they will function under fire to greatest degree possible in a training scenario. Same thing for dogs I think


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