# mating with her father?



## Maxil

Excuse me for such topic..

So Vicky is a bi-color German shepherd as her mother , but her father is a showing line champion and a very pure GSD.

So I was thinking of matting her with her father(when the time is suitable for her to) since she has 1/2 of his pure genes and of she mated with him they might produce beautiful dogs, she never met her father before, not even when she was a 1 week old.

So is it ok to do so? Or should I just let her mate with another pure dog? I just want to know if the puppies produced from them will be healthy or not

Again I am not going to do that now probably after a year or more but the breeder I took Vicky from offered me to do so and I want to know if its ok or not
Thanks


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## JakodaCD OA

I am not a breeder, but I would never breed a daughter to father..nor would I purchase one. 

You might want to read some of the breeder horror stories here on this forum, why take the chance of losing your girl just to breed her?


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## Ace GSD

Maxil said:


> Excuse me for such topic..
> 
> So Vicky is a bi-color German shepherd as her mother , but her father is a showing line champion and a very pure GSD.
> 
> So I was thinking of matting her with her father(when the time is suitable for her to) since she has 1/2 of his pure genes and of she mated with him they might produce beautiful dogs, she never met her father before, not even when she was a 1 week old.
> 
> So is it ok to do so? Or should I just let her mate with another pure dog? I just want to know if the puppies produced from them will be healthy or not
> 
> Again I am not going to do that now probably after a year or more but the breeder I took Vicky from offered me to do so and I want to know if its ok or not
> Thanks


I think it doesnt even matter if she had met her father or not  inbreeding is never good cause the puppies will have problems health and genetic.


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## carmspack

N O . 

they are either pure bred german shepherds or they are not.

there is no such thing as "very" pure .

NO . please do not do this .


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## Maxil

JakodaCD OA said:


> I am not a breeder, but I would never breed a daughter to father..nor would I purchase one.
> 
> You might want to read some of the breeder horror stories here on this forum, why take the chance of losing your girl just to breed her?


That's why I was asking , to make sure she would be safe or not, thanks for your help.

Can she mate with her older brother? From another mother but same father he is a pure breed like his father since his mother is pure as well

Thank you all for help and advice


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## carmspack

No !

the answer will still be no , but post her pedigree and let's see if or how this sire/male you have in mind, or her mother may already be linebred or inbred.


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## Maxil

carmspack said:


> No !


Not even her brother from another mother?

Then should I just mate her with a pure stranger?

Her mother is not a pure breed not a workline nor a showline , her father is a showline so Vicky is half and half but she seems like a workline for me


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## joneser

Maxil said:


> Not even her brother from another mother?
> 
> Then should I just mate her with a pure stranger?
> 
> Her mother is not a pure breed not a workline nor a showline , her father is a showline so Vicky is half and half but she seems like a workline for me


If you were good looking, and your half sister/brother was good looking, would you mate with them to make a beautiful baby? 

I hope not. Inbreeding reduces genetic variation, and unless you know your girl's pedigree, she may already have a lot of inbreeding in her line. She may not be a good candidate for breeding at all. Do you have that information?


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## JakodaCD OA

NO, you should not mate her at all..Are you prepared to spend thousands of dollars if something goes wrong with the pregnancy? Are you prepared that she could possibly die from complications? Are you going to have her hips/elbows done and other health testings before you breed her?

I know your from Egypt and there is probably slim pickings there..Love your dog for who she is, why take the risk of her dying or being stuck with a bunch of puppies who may have health issues, can you afford the vet costs you may have should you have sick puppies? 

again, love your dog and be happy with what you've got.


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## Maxil

Total misunderstanding , I will just go with the answer that I can't mate her with her brother or father
Just wanted to know if she can or not and I guess she can't but what I was asking for is if she mated with a pure breed will they produce good puppies or will they all be not pure?, so she can't mate with any of her family even if they are from other mothers?
Again I am not going to mate her again its just a question for the future since she will have to do it sooner or later because she is not neutered and I wont neuter her


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## Apoolutz

Why does she have to mate sooner or later?? Just because a dog isn't spayed or neutered doesn't mean they have to mate.


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## carmspack

you don't have enough knowledge . Don't breed her. 

"she will have to do it sooner or later because she is not neutered and I wont neuter her "

NO she will not have to do it sooner or later . This is no reason .


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## sparra

joneser said:


> If you were good looking, and your half sister/brother was good looking, would you mate with them to make a beautiful baby?



That's not really a fair comparison........inbreeding in animals is not the same as incest in humans.

Having said that agree the OP shouldn't breed their dog.


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## Maxil

carmspack said:


> you don't have enough knowledge . Don't breed her.
> 
> "she will have to do it sooner or later because she is not neutered and I wont neuter her "
> 
> NO she will not have to do it sooner or later . This is no reason .


All dogs have to mate sooner or later , same for humans 

Can you just stick with the topic and answer my question, god....

Can she mate with ANY of her family members? Brothers , brothers from other mothers? Father's brothers...


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## sparra

Why do you think all dogs need to mate........she doesn't need to mate.......she is not a human she is a dog ......you dont need to mate her at all.


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## carmspack

excuse me ?

seems you don't like a clear , unchanging answer. I did stick to the question and I am sticking to my guns. (an expression)

she does not have to be bred . With your knowledge base , she should not be bred. 

I am not even sure you know what a pure bred is when you say the sire is , quote " father is a showing line champion and a very pure GSD."

He either is a purebred or he is not. No "very" pure.

You said , quote "Her mother is not a pure breed not a workline nor a showline , her father is a showline so Vicky is half and half but she seems like a workline for me "

Being one half work line and one half show line is PUREBRED ! as long as each is German Shepherd . That is what I mean by the knowledge base. 

Did your breeder of Vicky the dog , quote " the breeder I took Vicky from offered me to do so "
offer to breed , give some stud service , or did he offer to breed her to her father !

That is just more bad stuff -- makes me wonder about Vicky .

Put up a pedigree .


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## Jax08

Maxil said:


> All dogs have to mate sooner or later , same for humans


No, they do not. Both humans and dogs can live long, happy, healthy, lives without reproducing



Maxil said:


> Can you just stick with the topic and answer my question, god....


No. Because you are throwing out comments that are not correct and need to be addressed.



Maxil said:


> Can she mate with ANY of her family members? Brothers , brothers from other mothers? Father's brothers...


NO. She can not. When you breed that closely within a line, you run the risk of increasing any gene that you don't want such as hip dysplasia. Do as Carmen suggested, post her pedigree. If you want to breed her then you need to understand these things and preferably do the required health testing before hand.


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## robk

This has been a very amusing thread.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Theoretically..
You can do father to daughter its a risky breeding but you can end up with some high end dogs that are prepotent.
I know of a recent bro/sis breeding (even higher risk) on the mal side thats looking good so far.

However, your playing with mutts and byb dogs..so no I wouldnt do it. The dogs are probably not worthy of any kind of reproduction.


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## Ace GSD

carmspack said:


> excuse me ?
> 
> seems you don't like a clear , unchanging answer. I did stick to the question and I am sticking to my guns. (an expression)
> 
> 
> 
> Put up a pedigree .


Carmen got a gun !


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## martemchik

I'm fairly certain there is a loss in translation here. If the dog in the avatar is his dog, she's purebred. What I think he means is that his dog is a mix of lines, not a mix of breeds. So he wants to bring back the "show lines" into her and make sure the puppies are more show line than whatever else his girl has in her. Also remember, the guy is in Egypt...way different dog culture than in the States or Canada.


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## carmspack

Blitzkrieg said "Theoretically..
You can do father to daughter its a risky breeding but you can end up with some high end dogs that are prepotent"

Oy , sinking to new depths . 

The plumbing fits. Life can be created. The end.


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## Yoshi

Hum, you do not need to participate in sexual intercourse to feel happy or complete . . . Not at all . . . 

There's a lot of good answers and explanations others have posted that point out that such close breeding can result with a lot of genetic diseases. Interbreeding results with a loss of genetic information. I am not a breeder but if I was I would never mate sibling to sibling or child to parent.


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## Gib_laut

Yoshi said:


> Hum, you do not need to participate in sexual intercourse to feel happy or complete . . . Not at all . . .


Speak for yourself!


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## My2shepherds

Gib_laut said:


> Speak for yourself!


 :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Maxil

Jax and Carmen thanks for your answers.

And I am very sorry if I stated wrong comments since most of my sources are wrong...

Thank you all for your answers and I will try making a pedigree for her since I never did mind doing it since not all Egyptians do that..
And since her father and mother have no pedigree that might be abit useless but I will try to as soon as I am on my pc


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## Yoshi

Gib_laut said:


> Speak for yourself!


:rofl::rofl:


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## Maxil

Her mother>> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=232282&stc=1&d=1407337844
Her father >> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=232290&stc=1&d=1407338000


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## selzer

It is certainly possible. Some breeders will do it to see what recessives their dogs carry. The breeding sire to daughter does not cause the problems, but the genes that are carried forward are much more likely to carry the problems that are hidden in many dogs. 

For example, you may carry a recessive for the coat but not be a coat. The daughter may also carry that, and the likelihood of creating coats in such a breeding increases. Coats are not a problem though. The genetic problems in this breed are abundant, so the likelihood of creating puppies with MegE, EPI, DM, HD and ED, and so forth are also very much increased.

Close in-breeding, sire to daughter, dam to son, sister to brother, 1/2 sister to 1/2 brother should be avoided. And beyond that, one should consider how much back massing there are to certain dogs in the pedigree. 

Breeding to a total stranger is unlikely to produce a specific type of GSD. You have to know what is behind the mating pair to get an idea of what is likely to be produced. 

A pure-bred is a purebred, whether working, show, or a mixture of the working and show lines. If the ancestors are purebred GSDs, and there is nothing other than GSD in there, then the dogs are purebred, and when mated to another purebred GSD, they will produce purebred GSDs. A dog that is not a purebred GSD cannot produce a purebred GSD at all.


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## Blanketback

Maxil, are GSDs very rare in Egypt? Is this why you're thinking down the road of breeding her? Or have you been told that they HAVE to be bred?


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## Maxil

Emmm... 
I want to breed her because I want her to get me a bunch of puppies lol.
Might be abit weird but I do want her to get pregnant and get puppies and keep them for my self and have a huge gang of puppies running and jumping around me.
Good feeling  I know some might not want that but I do want it


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## martemchik

I think it's that old wives tale about an intact dog needing to mate. It's prevalent in the United States, even more so other places. I don't know how many times I've been told that my boy is going to get frustrated because he's not getting any.


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## Tattersail

Maxil said:


> Emmm...
> I want to breed her because I want her to get me a bunch of puppies lol.
> Might be abit weird but I do want her to get pregnant and get puppies and keep them for my self and have a huge gang of puppies running and jumping around me.
> Good feeling  I know some might not want that but I do want it


Go to the humane society (if there is the equivalent of one in Egypt) and play with the puppies there.... breeding your dog just to experience "a huge gang of puppies running and jumping around me" is doing a huge disservice to the breed... and I would think edges some morality.... unless you're keeping every one of those puppies who will grow up. And if you are not, you will need money for their vaccines, time and patience... find them new homes. It's not something that should be taken lightly!


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## carmspack

the breeding however is not to create some awesome dog with valuable traits , which takes a degree of sophistication and thorough knowledge of the pedigree, close and distant relatives.

the OP is concerned about some physiological need . Here is the quote "to mate her again its just a question for the future since she will have to do it sooner or later because she is not neutered and I wont neuter her "

There is no need for this.

As for Yoshi -- too funny ! Maybe some bamboo shoot eating ascetic monk who collects water from the mists of mountain clouds .

I think he meant , it is not necessary to procreate to have children in order to have a fulfilled life .

-- I hope --


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## Jax08

Maxil said:


> Emmm...
> I want to breed her because I want her to get me a bunch of puppies lol.
> Might be abit weird but I do want her to get pregnant and get puppies and keep them for my self and have a huge gang of puppies running and jumping around me.
> Good feeling  I know some might not want that but I do want it



That is a terrible, terrible idea. How old are you? That might sound fantastic now but when you have 12 dogs you are responsible for, none of htem spayed or neutered, then you'll soon have 50. And how are you going to control the pack of dogs when they fight? How are you going to feed them? How are you going to train them all? It might seem like a 'good feeling' now but it won't be when reality sets in.

If you want more than one dog, go buy another but don't breed your female for these purposes.


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## Blanketback

LOL! Me too!!! But I've been advised that this is a silly fantasy, and a very bad idea- that it will be a nightmare to have all those dogs together: that they'd end up fighting, and that it would be hard to bond because they'd be bonding to each other instead. Not to mention that it would cost more than 10 times what my only dog costs me now, which would be financially impossible. But I agree, that dream is wonderful, lol.

ETA: good point about all the inbreeding, Jax. I'm sure there's lots of other good reasons to keep this as a fantasy.


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## selzer

Maxil said:


> Emmm...
> I want to breed her because I want her to get me a bunch of puppies lol.
> Might be abit weird but I do want her to get pregnant and get puppies and keep them for my self and have a huge gang of puppies running and jumping around me.
> Good feeling  I know some might not want that but I do want it


Having a bunch of puppies is fun. 

The first few weeks, it isn't all that hard, really. You change the newspapers a lot, but the dam feeds them and cleans them, and helps them to potty. 

The next few weeks are ok because they are small. They eat and they poop. And they pretty much don't do much else. You can hold them and pet that and that is fun. But you also have to clean lots of poop. But that's not too bad because they are pretty contained. 

By seven weeks they are pooping machines. They poop many times a day x 7 or 10 or 14 puppies. But they do not just poop. They eat it. They roll in it. They walk through it. They fight with each other. They walk through the poop and then through the food dish. And they play in the water buckets and soil them. They need lots of space, and all that space has to be cleaned several times a day.

At this point, they can all be together, running around and playing and fighting with each other. And yes, having them swarm you and jump on you is still enjoyable -- if you have kept after the toenails (10 x 18 per pup = 180 toenails) But somewhere between 10 and 18 weeks of age, this is not the best way to raise pets. They will turn into a pack. Some might start guarding food. The more dominant pups will bully the more submissive puppies, and all of them will start becoming very squirrely. To live with humans, a puppy should be an only or may one of a twain, that will then bond strongly to the humans not the other puppies. They need to learn human body language and cues, and what is expected by humans of dogs. 

Oh and the poop. Yes, this stops being the main concern, because them biting at your pants and hands and stuff to the point where you can barely feed them without getting roughed up. And knowing that this is not a good thing is more. But you cannot deny that the poop is also an issue. They are rolling in it -- you can't be next to them 24/7 to pick up every offering. Bathing 10 puppies is a pain in backside, and before you finish number 10, one of the other has pooped again, and then someone rolled in it. 

It really is one of those things that sounds a lot more romantic than it is. 

Someone once said that puppies are so disagreeable that they wouldn't touch them with a pole. I do not feel quite that way. But puppies (plural) are not all a fun and games.


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## Maxil

I will just keep them with me until they are 2 months then keep 1 or 2 and give the others to my friends. And maybe keep all for my self :3 but I guess you are right so I might just keep one pup


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## Yoshi

carmspack said:


> As for Yoshi -- too funny ! Maybe some bamboo shoot eating ascetic monk who collects water from the mists of mountain clouds .
> 
> I think he meant , it is not necessary to procreate to have children in order to have a fulfilled life .
> 
> -- I hope --


Exactly. :thumbup:

Oh yeah, that sure sounds like the life.  Living in the mountains, drinking tea while gazing at the red sunrise through the humidity, meditating to clear the 7 paths of chakras and achieving self enlightenment, and studying the art of Wudang. I think it sounds very relaxing.


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## selzer

Maxil said:


> I will just keep them with me until they are 2 months then keep 1 or 2 and give the others to my friends. And maybe keep all for my self :3 but I guess you are right so I might just keep one pup


If you have 7 or 8 friends that truly want a pup out of your bitch, then it won't be the end of he world to breed her. But since she is a baby puppy now, spend the next two years working with her, and learning all there is to know about breeding, the different lines, and dogs. So you can make the best decision possible at that time.


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## My2shepherds

Yoshi said:


> Exactly. :thumbup:
> 
> Oh yeah, that sure sounds like the life.  Living in the mountains, drinking tea while gazing at the red sunrise through the humidity, meditating to clear the 7 paths of chakras and achieving self enlightenment, and studying the art of Wudang. I think it sounds very relaxing.


 
LOL I shoud have joined this forum 17 years ago! Sounds like good advice!!


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## Audie1

There must be some cultural differences here. It looks as if dogs are viewed in a completely different light in Egypt; creatures that are given for pure pleasure and to be taken very lightly. A vanity sort of thing.

Also, I'm not so sure that the OP is blurring the lines between humans/canines in this case. It seems to me that he/she is taking pet dominance to an entirely different level - 'You can breed, I am your god, therefore you WILL breed.' I really do hope that this dog is sterilized ASAP.

*sigh*


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## Maxil

I just asked that question because when I got Vicky the breeder lied and said her mother is exactly as her father and after she became 3.5 months and there are no changes in the hair I went to him and he said that her mother is q bi-color not a red-black GSD like the father and so I had a fight with him and he said he will mate her with her father when she grows up as a sorry, and I was ok with that and I came here to ask if its ok or not.

I am training her and trying to get a trainer to come and give her some obedience courses but he says she is still young and I have to wait until she is 6 months because if he hit her now she will turn out to be a coward dog


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## martemchik

maxil said:


> i am training her and trying to get a trainer to come and give her some obedience courses but he says she is still young and i have to wait until she is 6 months because if he hit her now she will turn out to be a coward dog


why would your trainer hit your dog?!?!?!


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## My2shepherds

Okay done with this thread...


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## selzer

Audie1 said:


> There must be some cultural differences here. It looks as if dogs are viewed in a completely different light in Egypt; creatures that are given for pure pleasure and to be taken very lightly. A vanity sort of thing.
> 
> Also, I'm not so sure that the OP is blurring the lines between humans/canines in this case. It seems to me that he/she is taking pet dominance to an entirely different level - 'You can breed, I am your god, therefore you WILL breed.' I really do hope that this dog is sterilized ASAP.
> 
> *sigh*


Being left to her own devices, she WILL breed. That is an instinct, and when she is in heat, if there is a dog anywhere, ANYWHERE, near enough, they will breed. Both male and female with do all they can to get it done. They are not humans. 

It is kind of like playing God the other way around. You will NOT breed. I will make it impossible for you to conceive. I will allow you to only breed to dogs of my choosing. 

But we are our dogs' owners, and it is up to us to make these decisions. Whether or not we will allow the breeding, and when, and to whom, and for how long we keep the puppies.

On the other hand, there really is no need to allow it. It will not make her more healthy or happy, it will not improve her to be a mother. It will not frustrate her to not be.


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## selzer

Maxil said:


> I just asked that question because when I got Vicky the breeder lied and said her mother is exactly as her father and after she became 3.5 months and there are no changes in the hair I went to him and he said that her mother is q bi-color not a red-black GSD like the father and so I had a fight with him and he said he will mate her with her father when she grows up as a sorry, and I was ok with that and I came here to ask if its ok or not.
> 
> I am training her and trying to get a trainer to come and give her some obedience courses but he says she is still young and I have to wait until she is 6 months because if he hit her now she will turn out to be a coward dog


Bi-color is an appropriate color for GSDs. You really need to educate yourself on the dogs behind your dog if you want to make a stab at breeding.


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## Maxil

selzer said:


> Bi-color is an appropriate color for GSDs. You really need to educate yourself on the dogs behind your dog if you want to make a stab at breeding.


She isn't a pure bi-color as I said not a working nor a showing


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## Jax08

Maxil said:


> She isn't a pure bi-color as I said not a working nor a showing



There is no such thing as a "pure bi-color". Or "pure" working or "pure" showing.

There is ONLY pure German Shepherds. 

Bi-color is just a color pattern. It's a predominantly black and tan with the black covering most of the body and having tarheels.

There are working line and show lines within the pure breed of German Shepherds. But they are ALL German Shepherds.


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## wyoung2153

Though I am not a breeder by any mreans, I do not believe you should be breeding just to have fluffy puppies running around and jumping on you. Sounds like a nice dream until it's reality. And cultural differences or not, that just isn't right. You need to educate yourself much better than this if you plan on breeding, ever. 

And yeah I'm still wondering why your trainer is going to hit your dog?


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## GSDAlphaMom

I'm not sure the OP is an adult. One of his/her threads is asking why the puppy follows his/her dad around and not the OP.


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## DJMac

wyoung2153 said:


> And yeah I'm still wondering why your trainer is going to hit your dog?


Apparently, that's his preferred training method.


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## Blanketback

Vicky is still very young, so you don't know what color she's going to end up when she's full grown. My puppy that had more black on him than your puppy does turned out to have a blanket back pattern. 

I'm glad you found this forum! Hopefully you'll learn so much about how to train your puppy that you won't need to have someone come over to hit her, ever!!!


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## Maxil

I called him back and I told him why do you need to hit her, he thought I wanted her trained for guarding they do scare them with the whip and sticks and if he does that now it will turn into a coward training not a guard training Vicky is 4 months old now,and her hands are white and abit red like her father , the breeder said she might have red legs


GSDAlphaMom said:


> I'm not sure the OP is an adult. One of his/her threads is asking why the puppy follows his/her dad around and not the OP.


17 and moving to 18


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## Jax08

You mean protection work? Like with Schutzhund? Then yes, the trainer is correct. She's to young for that and should only be doing prey work right now.


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## blackshep

Like I wasn't having a bad enough day as it was, I go and open this thread... :crazy:

OP, I hope you will take the advice of the experienced people here. There are so many things wrong with what you are hoping to do that I don't even know where to begin. 

I think if down the road you want to get into breeding, you need to get a lot more experience with training, bloodlines etc. People here can help with stuff like that. But you need years and years more experience with serious dog people before you are ready for that.

Good luck with your pup, I hope you will do what is best for HER.


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## Maxil

Thanks and as I said she is still 15 weeks old about a year or a 2 more for her to be ready for breeding so I have alot of time to. 
Thank you all anyways!! I really find this helpful and I might ask more for stuff about how to train her to do stuff hope you may help me later!


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## Guardyan

For training, the puppygarten videos at this site ( http://www.gettoready.net ) are exceptional. Just click the training tab on the upper left side. 

Re: the original post, please read the following article:
The Immune System - The American Lhasa Apso Club
Genetic diversity has significant impacts on immune system health.


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## wolfstraum

Maxil - there is ONLY ONE PERSON in all of Egypt who can help you properly train this dog.

Hashem El Dandarawy who has a boarding and training kennel in Cairo...I met him and visited his facility in March when I was there. Please please do not breed your female to any relative. Hashem imports many dogs from Europe, mostly Belgium.

Eastwind Kennels

This is the website for his kennel.

He and I spent quite a few hours together discussing GSDs and breeding. He trains and competes in IPO too.

Lee


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## mssandslinger

is this thread for real?


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## wyoung2153

DJMac said:


> Apparently, that's his preferred training method.


Well that's nice isn't it..


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## Blitzkrieg1

Lol people in the mid east and africa people have no clue about dogs in general. For the most part these are not cultures that have shared their lives with dogs to any extent.

There is no spueter, no training no dog food even in many such places. 
As for the trainer that hits the dog with sticks to teach protection..he is probably ahead of the game around there.
Wolfstraum found someone who does IPO there truly a diamond in the rough.


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## marbury

This has been fun!


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## JakodaCD OA

I actually think it's sad and just shake my head


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## DJMac

wyoung2153 said:


> Well that's nice isn't it..


It depends on who you ask.


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## wolfstraum

Blitzkreig is right - we have to look more closely at the location of many of our foreign members....so many do not have the resources we have and so do not have the level of exposure to knowledge. India and the middle east are not exactly ideal places to get assistance and care for dogs.

The guy I know in Cario, Hashem, travels to Belgium and Germany regularly to train with top competitors. He has competed in the WUSV. He would have competed this year but his nice dog Heist tore an ACL very badly, and the dog would not have been able to be returned to competitive soundness. But, they have classes at the kennel. He is the ideal person to help the OP

Lee


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## Maxil

For gods sake keep in mind that I started owning dogs this year only and I know nothing and that's why I created this topic , and from my posts its clear I know nothing so its better to stop that stupid sarcasm, and bare in mind that if I knew anything about this breed I wouldn't have created or even minded to create an account over here. 
Why are you just making fun and talking stupid about me and what I want to do for my pup in the future if you checked my topics I post a topic EVERY time before I do anything and yes of course many people help but it seems like there are many others that start joking and making fun out of me...

Blitzkrieg1, don't judge about a WHOLE area on earth from one topic I am a 1 of a billion there are many intelligent breeders and dog owners here and i am trying to learn so don't act like you are the #1 alpha owner.

Wolfstarum, I have already tried calling them once but they are about 60km far from me and if I asked them to come thru take 100% more for trainings, so I nigh just want to try a training that my friends recommend thanks


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## JakodaCD OA

with any board, you need to just ignore the comments that appear to be rude/joking.

What you need to also do, is listen to breeders like carmen/wolfstraum when they tell you not to breed your dog, listen and adhere their advice.

You will do what you want to do, but again, did you read all the possible things that can go wrong breeding a dog?? Your female could DIE, your puppies could have health issues can you afford to pay a vet if the female needed a C section???? Can you afford to pay the vet if your puppies end up or are born with health issues????

Are you willing to risk your dogs LIFE for a bunch of puppies??? 

That's why I'm sad reading this because I don't think you 'think' this could happen to you. It can. You've lost one dog to parvo, how would you feel if you lost a whole litter to it? 

Ask all the questions you like, you say you want to learn, well then, take the advice of breeders here who are telling you it's not a good idea to breed her, let alone breed her to a relative..


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## wolfstraum

Maxil - there are people everywhere who do not think before they talk/write....unfortunately, many do not pay enough attention to the details in a discussion. They do not consider your location or the fact that English is not your first language and make judgements in error when responding to you. 

As I have been in Cairo a few times, most recently this past March, and I have friends who are US educated veterinarians there, I do know that the level of knowledge about dog and cat ownership and the attitudes are very very different there than here in the States. Yes, there are people who love their dogs, I have met many. But the widespread "common knowledge" here and the availability of vet care and training is vastly different there than here. Please look at the rudeness with the knowledge that people do not understand your resources there. 

I still think that if you can eventually get to Eastwind it will be a help for you. I do not wish to hear of your girl having the kinds of possible complications that go along with breeding knowing the type and availability of veterinary care. I have US and European friends who live in / near Cairo and know what is and is not available. 

If you are near Sakaara, then my friend has an Equine hospital there, and will sometimes do work on pets as well. Please keep that in mind if you have a need.

Lee


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you, Wolfstraum. I have noticed that the OP has a way with our language...


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## Maxil

JalodaCD, I did see there replies and I thanked them for there answer, and I knew the results of doing so and I am 100% sure now that I will never do it 

Wolfstraum, I swear I begged my father to drive me there but he never agrees as its too far but there is a good vet in Cairo , a hospital owned by the army and most doctors there are educated at france/england and they are very trusted and the most trustfull hospital in Cairo. But there are better at saqara and a place called ooraby as well

Thanks again anyways and hope you just lock this topic or throw it away I am fed up lol


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## wyoung2153

I didn't mean to come off rude.. just unsure of the trainer you picked and agreed with the others about breeding. Please continue to come here for questions. I think a lot of the attitude came from the cultural barrier and possible the way you worded things. I apologize if I offended you as it was not my intention. Good luck with her and share pics when you can 

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## Sagan

For the most part take what people say here with a grain of salt. Research in multiple locations and do what you think is right. Maybe breeding your dog will turn out wonderfully or maybe it won't. Just try to best understand any risks to your decisions and carry on. Ultimately the decision is yours and nobody else's.

I heard a joke in respects to training. "Two trainers will never agree on a certain method but they will always agree the third trainer is wrong."


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## Blitzkrieg1

Maxil said:


> For gods sake keep in mind that I started owning dogs this year only and I know nothing and that's why I created this topic , and from my posts its clear I know nothing so its better to stop that stupid sarcasm, and bare in mind that if I knew anything about this breed I wouldn't have created or even minded to create an account over here.
> Why are you just making fun and talking stupid about me and what I want to do for my pup in the future if you checked my topics I post a topic EVERY time before I do anything and yes of course many people help but it seems like there are many others that start joking and making fun out of me...
> 
> Blitzkrieg1, don't judge about a WHOLE area on earth from one topic I am a 1 of a billion there are many intelligent breeders and dog owners here and i am trying to learn so don't act like you are the #1 alpha owner.
> 
> Wolfstarum, I have already tried calling them once but they are about 60km far from me and if I asked them to come thru take 100% more for trainings, so I nigh just want to try a training that my friends recommend thanks


I dont know you.
I was speaking in generalities to people's assumptions that their are many readily accessible trainers, breeders and SPCA's there.

Lets just say I have intimate knowledge of how many from those cultures and regions tend to view dogs.


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## Jeff Oehlsen

If you are serious about being a breeder, crossing back to the father can show you hidden recessives. Depending on how it goes, you can either see you have something to work with, or you will need to find a different line. 

People who do not breed have strong opinions on this matter. It is foolish to listen to those who do not breed, but want to have an opinion. The American pit bull terrier is a product of unbelievable inbreeding, and they are some of the strongest dogs genetically.

I would do it.


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## Maxil

Jeff Oehlsen said:


> If you are serious about being a breeder, crossing back to the father can show you hidden recessives. Depending on how it goes, you can either see you have something to work with, or you will need to find a different line.
> 
> People who do not breed have strong opinions on this matter. It is foolish to listen to those who do not breed, but want to have an opinion. The American pit bull terrier is a product of unbelievable inbreeding, and they are some of the strongest dogs genetically.
> 
> I would do it.


American pit bulls are breeder from 7 different breeds but I wouldn't take a risk after 74 posts of arguments about that lol let me just breed her with a normal pure stranger


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## JakodaCD OA

so you'll take the risk of her dying just to have some puppies?

Sad, sad sad..


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## Maxil

JakodaCD OA said:


> so you'll take the risk of her dying just to have some puppies?
> 
> Sad, sad sad..


What the ****? Since when does mating lead to death in dogs? 
I said I don't take the risk and mate her with her father oh my goodness does my English really seem un-understandable?????


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## glowingtoadfly

No, your English is fine. I thought the post about the crab hand was a bit silly, but that was a silly topic. I think you are doing great.


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## Pax8

Maxil said:


> What the ****? Since when does mating lead to death in dogs?
> I said I don't take the risk and mate her with her father oh my goodness does my English really seem un-understandable?????


It doesn't matter if you breed her to her father or a stranger, there are risks for the female dog in pregnancy and during birth, including death.


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## joneser

sparra said:


> That's not really a fair comparison........inbreeding in animals is not the same as incest in humans


Besides the difference in definition:
Inbreeding is procreating
Incest is the sexual act

Can you further explain your statement? Genetic recessive/dominant trait inheritance, and the genetic variation of the offspring, does not differ between organisms...does it?


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## EMH

Location: Cairo, Egypt


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## JRZ91

Maxil said:


> Not even her brother from another mother?


:wild:


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## Kahrg4

Maxil, what I think many of the other posters on this forum are worried about conveying to you are the risks with any pregnancy. Just like many things can go wrong during a human birth, many things can go wrong in canine births. 

For many female dogs their first pregnancy is especially difficult. Like people need cesarean section surgery, dogs do too sometimes. Puppies can be too large and sometimes don't fit into the birth canal. Puppies can get stuck. Some puppies even if born fail to thrive and die after a few hours. There are birth defects that you can't tell until they're several weeks old, PRAA comes to mind. 

While having a litter of puppies climb all over you seems like a lot of fun and super sweet the responsible thing to do is look at the whole picture. Just like humans get stressed when pregnant dogs get stressed too. With any species, man or dog, there are lots of expensive and sometimes lethal complications to birth. The question becomes, do you feel that your desire to have a bunch of puppies to play with for a few weeks is more important than the health and happiness of Vicky? Vicky will be very confused about what is happening to her, she may have a birthing complication and require surgery, the puppies may die (especially if there's a history of Parvo in the environment), Vicky may decide not to let the puppies nurse (postpartum behavior exists in dogs), and sadly the possibility exists that Vicky may die due to a complication from pregnancy/birth.

This is why so many people on the board are so very concerned about such a novice and new dog owner jumping into something that requires A LOT of experience to do well. I think its great that you are reaching out and learning about the breed. Good job! I think you just need to continue learning and that way 2 years down the line you can make a better more informed decision on whether to breed Vicky or not. As others have stated she does not need to have puppies to live a whole and happy life. I think you'll find the only thing she really needs to be happy is to be near you and your family.


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## carmspack

quote OP " the breeder lied and said her mother is exactly as her father and after she became 3.5 months and there are no changes in the hair I went to him and he said that her mother is q bi-color not a red-black GSD like the father and so I had a fight with him and he said he will mate her with her father when she grows up as a sorry, and I was ok with that and I came here to ask if its ok or not."

She feels the breeder deceived her as she was expecting to get a black and red , which is what the sire is . Later found out the mother is a bi-colour , same as Vicky the pup . 
Breeder , as compensation , apology - offers to breed the father to the daughter with the expectation that the OP will get the colour she was after , black and red , show line type. 

It's still not okay , whether the reason for it is because they have to do it some time anyway , or for getting a different colour. 

To breed that closely takes a lot of knowledge about the lines that you are inbreeding on. Risk weighed against benefits. 

Bi-colour turns my head . Go and have a look at http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/show-me-pictures/202426-show-me-you-bicolor-shepherd.html


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## JakodaCD OA

> What the ****? Since when does mating lead to death in dogs?
> I said I don't take the risk and mate her with her father oh my goodness does my English really seem un-understandable?????
> __________________


There are lots of risks with pregnant dogs not just mating to their relatives but mating with ANY dog.. And yes, some can and do die while giving birth/complications.

and you have a BICOLOR german shepherd, carmen posted a link above.

I'm saying don't breed her at all, unless of course your willing to take the chance of losing her (as in dying), complications, puppy complications..

But I'm done, it's your dog, you will do what you will,


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## lhczth

Yes, there are risks in breeding. You have all warned the OP. Ultimately it is their decision. Getting snarky and rude will not help change their mind.


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## selzer

Maxil, 

What you need to do is get some books. There are some on Amazon.com. Books on breeding a litter of puppies. And you need to read them -- all the way through. This will show you that we are not just picking on you because we think you are young, or inexperienced, or from another culture/country. We aren't. 

In those books it will tell you how to recognize when your bitch is in trouble. If your bitch does get a puppy stuck or has a condition where she becomes too tired to continue to whelp, do you have the resources available there to get your bitch in to a the vet and perform the surgery needed to save her life? Will your dad drive you there? 

You need to be able to recognize the signs that the bitch is in trouble, and that the pups are in trouble. You have to know how to tube-feed a puppy and when that is appropriate. I know breeders who have been breeding for decades who claims she always drowns them. It is a terrible feeling when you have puppy that is alive, and you are either unable to maintain that life, or you kill it by your action or inaction. 

And then there's the bitch. She looks at you and trusts you. You are working on her puppy and when you can't hand it back to her, it is awful. But it is worse when something you did or did not do loses the bitch that you have raised for a couple of years, that trusts you. I have lost puppies. I haven't lost a dam. But others, people posting here have. 

Read the books. And keep them handy if you are intending to breed. Reading whelping problems by the side of the whelping box in the wee hours of the morning is something that most dog owners know nothing about. 

When I was 10 I knew I wanted to do what I am doing. And I waited until I owned my own home, and bought my first dog intended from breeding in my late twenties. That dog had conformation faults as well temperament problems, and I made the decision not to breed him. I next bought a female, and it was 4 years later that I had my first litter. 

This is not something you should do until you are ready. Take the time and do it right. If Dad won't drive you to the trainer mentioned, work at home with her, and if you can, work on getting to a place where you can be more in control of your own decisions. 30 miles in not far for a good trainer, and paying double for a good trainer is a bargain. In fact, using bad training will mean working with a good trainer for much longer to clean up your initial mistakes. And it will take longer.

Anything worth doing, is worth doing right. And, when you know what you want, it will not hurt to wait until you can get everything lined up.


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## DJMac

JakodaCD OA said:


> so you'll take the risk of her dying just to have some puppies?
> 
> Sad, sad sad..


Well that's how you got your puppies. Somebody had to take that risk, right?


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## my boy diesel

that someone likely had tons more experience than this op and could afford an emergency c section if it had come to that

from what we have seen on the forum, egypt is quite a ways behind us in vet care
would a vet even be available should it come to that??

not to mention you have to know your bloodlines inside and out to produce quality pups and this op does not seem to have those credentials or that information


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## DJMac

my boy diesel said:


> that someone likely had tons more experience than this op and could afford an emergency c section if it had come to that
> 
> from what we have seen on the forum, egypt is quite a ways behind us in vet care
> would a vet even be available should it come to that??
> 
> not to mention you have to know your bloodlines inside and out to produce quality pups and this op does not seem to have those credentials or that information


That experienced breeder was once an inexperienced breeder. 

"An expert at anything was once a beginner."

The OP has plenty of time to soak up information on breeding, as well as find a good vet who will assist.


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## my boy diesel

if the op was in the states it would be a whole nother ball of wax and i might agree with you
in this case, i cannot agree with you


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## DJMac

Understood, I can see how that would be a reasonable conclusion.


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## JakodaCD OA

DJ, all my dogs (barring the rescues) came from breeders who had been doing it for years. Their reasons for breeding were not to have a bunch of puppies..


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## selzer

But the OP is a kid. A kid is usually not thinking about breeding show champions unless their folks have been into that. And they aren't usually thinking about breeding the ultimate schutzhund dog either, unless they are part of that party. They may dream about breeding k9s. But they are kids, and kids want to have puppies because they are kids. 

One puppy is great, 7 puppies are awesome when you are a kid and somebody else is hiding/disposing of the dead ones, and cleaning the poop, and finding them appropriate homes.

Instead of beating up on a kid, we would probably reach them by appealing to their better nature. 

No kid is a fiend for wanting puppies. And to make them out as such, or hopeless, or sad, or stupid will only work against what you are trying to accomplish. And kids are also invincible. They aren't going to get caught if they shoplift, or if they play hooky, or if they get together with their boyfriend, or if they drive while texting, it won't happen to them, nor will their bitch die. It won't happen to them, they are invincible.

The youngster is reaching adulthood, but it will still take a while before the reach the point where they stop being so invincible, and start considering everything there is to think about. 

17 year olds that want a bunch of puppies to have a bunch of puppies are not totally abnormal. And it will take more than the finger of shame to make a difference.


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## Sunflowers

my boy diesel said:


> that someone likely had tons more experience than this op and could afford an emergency c section if it had come to that
> 
> from what we have seen on the forum, egypt is quite a ways behind us in vet care
> would a vet even be available should it come to that??
> 
> not to mention you have to know your bloodlines inside and out to produce quality pups and this op does not seem to have those credentials or that information


If that someone had tons of experience and were such a fabulous breeder, she wouldn't have made the offer to the OP to breed her bitch to her sire.
Just sayin'.


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## carmspack

everyone started out as a beginner , sure, but to jump right into breeder is not how most breeders had their beginning.
You start off with an interest in the breed , a love and respect for it . You have a dog which whets your interest. You start going to training clubs , compete , get critiqued - learn . You start to look at ideals . Ideals of conformation, ideals in temperament. Learn by hands on experience and good mentors . Read . Participate . Start separating the wheat from the chaff . 
You may be at this level for some time . Then you go forward.
Buy a dog, breed the dog , is not a starting point .


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## wolfy dog

It feels like the biggest hurdle in here is the cultural difference. It can be tough to come to a solution that works for everyone.


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## carmspack

that cultural difference may include very harsh and severe for any unwanted dogs


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## DJMac

JakodaCD OA said:


> DJ, all my dogs (barring the rescues) came from breeders who had been doing it for years. Their reasons for breeding were not to have a bunch of puppies..


I understand that. I did the same. But before they became reputable breeders and had years of experience, they was just some newbie trying to soak up information.

I'm not the OP saying should or should not breed but for some of the people who are commenting saying the OP is inexperienced therefore shouldn't breed is absolutely ridiculous.

You had to start somewhere.


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## carmspack

"I'm not the OP saying should or should not breed but for some of the people who are commenting saying the OP is inexperienced therefore shouldn't breed is absolutely ridiculous"

NO it is not absolutely ridiculous .


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## DJMac

carmspack said:


> "I'm not the OP saying should or should not breed but for some of the people who are commenting saying the OP is inexperienced therefore shouldn't breed is absolutely ridiculous"
> 
> NO it is not absolutely ridiculous .


Well that's your OPINION.


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## carmspack

not just inexperienced with breeding , inexperienced in dogs and most importantly inexperienced with GSD . The later seems to be important for making sound breeding choices.
The father or brother are not in that category.
Yes, my opinion.


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## canyadoit

Line breeding and inbreeding has been done since man has started breeding animals All breeds come from line breeding or inbreeding It is done to attempt to 'capture' something that the breeder likes, wishes to improve on or to 'tighten' the blood line. There is not a thing incorrect in this type of breeding although care must be used and the offspring should be kept to gage the effects of the breeding


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## selzer

Without knowing the dogs behind the mating pair, close linebreeding (inbreeding) is like speeding down the highway with a blindfold on.


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## canyadoit

Line breeding is not inbreeding as posted by selzer This topic is on inbreeding though. A bit more dicey than line breeding. 

I do not see the issue , none of you except one, may have to cull the dogs should it not work. In breeding culling is a fact few wish to admit to. Breeders sell dogs they do not wish to keep
Few sell there grade A stock. I never did . I sold very few dogs in my time. I did cull though.


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## canyadoit

Maxi this may be of interest to you, and others
davidcavill. wordpress. com
A beginners guide to inbreeding and line breeding


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## Castlemaid

I removed the Troll comments - completely uncalled for.


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## canyadoit

What is a troll if I may ask


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## Moriah

canyadoit said:


> What is a troll if I may ask


A person making inflammatory remarks to derail the thread or get an emotional response from posters. A form of harassment.


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## canyadoit

Thank you moriah


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## VALIUM

I'm sorry but really struggling to hold my horses. Why would you even think to breed your dog to her father? This is called incest.!!! Please leave breeding to professionals. This is a dedicated serious work. There are enough shepherds out there with numerous issues. Please stop this and spay/neuter your poor dogs.!!!!!


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## bob_barker

robk said:


> This has been a very amusing thread.


Ha! Robk you took the words out of my mouth!! 

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## selzer

VALIUM said:


> I'm sorry but really struggling to hold my horses. Why would you even think to breed your dog to her father? This is called incest.!!! Please leave breeding to professionals. This is a dedicated serious work. There are enough shepherds out there with numerous issues. Please stop this and spay/neuter your poor dogs.!!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It is NOT incest. I am sorry, but the problem with incest is the emotional/mental betrayal when a close family member who is considerably older and has a position of power over a family member in need of protection uses their power/position to force/coerce behavior for which our social norms have a taboo. Dogs are not burdened by this. By the time they are old enough to mate, they really don't care if it is a sire/dam or a sibling. They are not going to suffer from the ramifications of this for years to come. Saying this is incest is totally misunderstanding why incest is actually a really bad thing -- it is not the act, but the betrayal and the secrecy and the guilt and the shame that does the majority of the damage -- these things the dogs do not suffer from.


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## Moriah

selzer said:


> It is NOT incest. I am sorry, but the problem with incest is the emotional/mental betrayal when a close family member who is considerably older and has a position of power over a family member in need of protection uses their power/position to force/coerce behavior for which our social norms have a taboo. Dogs are not burdened by this. By the time they are old enough to mate, they really don't care if it is a sire/dam or a sibling. They are not going to suffer from the ramifications of this for years to come. Saying this is incest is totally misunderstanding why incest is actually a really bad thing -- it is not the act, but the betrayal and the secrecy and the guilt and the shame that does the majority of the damage -- these things the dogs do not suffer from.


Well said. Thank you for accurately putting the issue in perspective.


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## RubyTuesday

Incest is incest, Selzer. In a wild environment animals are naturally disinclined to incest. Domestic breeding programs are rarely focused on the well being of the breed, the species or the individual animal. IF they were there'd be a whole lot less inbreeding, especially close inbreeding, ie incest.

I suspect the word is avoided when discussing domestic breeding because people need to create artificial differences to avoid facing exactly what it is they're doing, which is undermining the health, longevity & well being of the animals they so cavalierly breed.

PB breeding in many, many cases is an utter mess. Immune systems are weakened, wonky structural anomalies, even deformities, are the norm & only becoming even more extreme. Longevity is declining. Cancer, thyroid disorders, fulminant allergies, bizarre behavioral disorders, serious digestive problems, eye disorders, susceptibility to disease & infection are increasingly common among many breeds, including the GSD. Incest is at the heart of this & it is absolutely a betrayal of trust.

Dogs deserve so much better than they get from us, all too often from the point of conception. Truly striving to breed healthy, robust, long lived, structurally sound, mentally solid dogs, is a moral imperative all too many breeders, including the so called good breeders, pay little heed to.


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## nezzz

wolfy dog said:


> It feels like the biggest hurdle in here is the cultural difference. It can be tough to come to a solution that works for everyone.


There is no culture in the world that I know of that actively promotes inbreeding of humans or animals.

To OP: Enjoy your dog, especially since this is your first as your previous one died prematurely. But don't ever breed her, not to her dad, brother, uncle, ANYONE. It seems like you don't know a single thing about dogs and you want to go into breeding, and that is just a recipe for disaster. Leave breeding to professionals, and certainly NOT the breeder you got from either as he just sounds like a conman.


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## carmspack

" There is no culture in the world that I know of that actively promotes inbreeding of humans or animals"

well there are cultures with arranged marriages , often with very very close family ties -- cousins. Charles Darwin was a man who had many problems , then problems with his children , their health , vigor and being able to have children themselves , if they were among the lucky to survive. Darwin was from many generations of close cousin family history and then married his first cousin .
So he had, and his children had less genetic variation . His experience piqued his interest in genetics.

There are religious sects which founded on "special" individuals to found the cult - Mormons - the original founders , father to daughter to brother .
Religious sects which mandate marriage within the religion, Amish comes to mind .
Polygamist Sects: How They Avoid Inbreeding Problems

These populations are being used to study inherited diseases http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00439-005-0032-x

The Monarchy another example of close family ties.


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## carmspack

Lessons from Island Wolves


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## VALIUM

carmspack said:


> Lessons from Island Wolves



Thank you Carmen, this is fantastic and at some point an eye opener.!!!


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## carmspack

the problem with this female Vicky is that there is no organized documentation of who her father is and he may be the result of some deep and intense inbreeding , so to breed to father or brother - would not even entertain the thought of it. You have to know.

People who tended to use dogs for work kept private records . They knew what the dogs were - 
great little book to read [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Bred-Perfection-Shorthorn-Collies-Arabian/dp/0801873444[/ame] Bred for Perfection by Margaret Derry


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## Liesje

The wolf-moose study on Isle Royale is the longest running predator-prey model study ever. The wolves hunt and breed without any help or influence from humans (other than being observed). I bring it up here because these wolves have highly inbred on their own, including when "Old Grey" came over from Canada and added an outcross to the gene pool but then his genes essentially took over and he was breeding with his daughters in the wild, no human influence. Within a decade of his arrival, 7/8 of wolves were his direct offspring and eventually more than half of all the genes in all of the wolves belonged to this single male wolf.


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## joneser

nezzz said:


> There is no culture in the world that I know of that actively promotes inbreeding of humans or animals.


That is accurate based on today's social stigma surrounding the act, however incest was very common in royal families in order to retain power, more often between siblings and cousins. 

Scientifically, incest is the act of intercourse, while inbreeding is the process of producing offspring. The emotional/psychological fallout associated with either of these is not attributed to animals. And while it can happen in the wild, animal relationships/hierarchies often preclude mating amongst families ie: the young males are run off/killed, a new/younger male takes over, etc.

Animals are build to procreate, **** the biological costs, and when/if this results in limited biodiversity within a remaining species, the only way to recover is to continue procreating or become extinct. 


All that being said, the only comment I would make to the OP is: is breeding your dog the best thing for her? Does the breed require it for survival? Is the risk to her worth the reward? As humans we rule the animal kingdom...in this case are you a worthy steward of the gift of your dog's life that you've been given?


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## carmspack

"Scientifically, incest is the act of intercourse, while inbreeding is the process of producing offspring"

can't have one without the other -- 

quoting nezz
_There is no culture in the world that I know of that actively promotes inbreeding of humans or animals._

_quoting joneser_
That is accurate based on today's social stigma surrounding the act, however incest was very common in royal families in order to retain power, more often between siblings and cousins.

no it is not accurate . In some religious cults , right here in North America , thinking of one that is polygamous were women/females are POSSESSIONs .

The Royal houses "kept it in the family" to keep property and wealth in the family . 

no one is talking about morals , genetics and the decline of vigor threw reduced genetic variation


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