# Fear Agression



## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

Baron (2yo male - neutered) is away at training bootcamp. They say he has a lot of fear aggression. Has anyone dealt with this?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Yes. Some dogs are able to work thru this, others managed. Woolf is the managed type. Please discuss with your trainer regarding dedicated time for YOUR training. Your training for handling and reading skills are just as important, maybe even more so then the training for your dog.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

Fear aggression is normal for the breed. A german shepherd without fear aggression is not a true representative of the breed. The question is this: in what context is this trainer mentioning that your dog has lots of fear aggression?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

BallsofMeat said:


> A german shepherd without fear aggression is not a true representative of the breed.


Really?


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## MythicMut (May 22, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> Fear aggression is normal for the breed. A german shepherd without fear aggression is not a true representative of the breed.


Huh???


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

BallsofMeat said:


> Fear aggression is normal for the breed. A german shepherd without fear aggression is not a true representative of the breed. The question is this: in what context is this trainer mentioning that your dog has lots of fear aggression?


Please do research into the breed. Fear Aggression is *NOT* normal for this breed.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

"Aloofness' is a breed trait... this is by no means fear aggression. It means they are reserved or indifferent to stangers but by no means should show fear. Aloofness is a trait that made them good herders as they kept their mind on business, and not on seeking attention from people.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

lkcheertex said:


> Baron (2yo male - neutered) is away at training bootcamp. *They say he has a lot of fear aggression. Has anyone dealt with this?*


Who is *they?* When you say "training bootcamp" do you mean that you drop your dog off and a trainer works with him privately/one-on-one?
OR the trainer has staff members handle your dog during a scheduled obedience class, which is how my pup's trainer does training bootcamp at his facility.

It's very important that you are physically there for the training of your aggressive dog. He needs you.

Anyway, Yes. I had a GSD with Fear aggression.
We adopted a 2 yr old male many years ago. He had been horribly neglected/abused. His name was Jake.

He and I worked privately with a trainer for a couple of months. The trainer specialized in GSDs. 
After training privately, we enrolled in group obedience classes with that same guy as trainer. Jake did well in group obedience class. That trainer really saw the best in him and as a team that trainer and I got the best out of my dog. And Jake's best was outstanding.
The aggression never him, but I learned to manage it and he led a long, happy and healthy life. He was a great family dog and lived to do some very wonderful things for his family. In fact, every single day of his life, he found a way to thank us for giving him a home.

Aggression is scary and a serious issue. 
I think you should sit down with your trainer and ask some questions.
Definitely ask, What does "a lot of fear aggression" mean? You need an explanation and a game plan that involves a strategy which leads toward bringing out the best in your dog.
But you should be right by your dog's side during the hands-on training.
I hope all goes well with your dog.
Your dog will definitely show you his best.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

lkcheertex said:


> Baron (2yo male - neutered) *is away at training bootcamp.* They say he has a lot of fear aggression. Has anyone dealt with this?


 IKcheertex.
I was careless when reading your thread.
You wrote "*away* at training bootcamp." And i rambled on and on.
Sorry bout that.
I wish you and your pup a lot of luck.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

Twyla said:


> Please do research into the breed. Fear Aggression is *NOT* normal for this breed.


Yes it is. I suggest you do the research. Where did you get your education?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

What your talking about is a little out of context for this topic Bom. Maybe it would be better if you explained.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

NINADOG said:


> "Aloofness' is a breed trait... this is by no means fear aggression. It means they are reserved or indifferent to stangers but by no means should show fear. Aloofness is a trait that made them good herders as they kept their mind on business, and not on seeking attention from people.


Either people on this thread are misinformed or misunderstanding. 

I think the people who are quick to react on this thread on fear aggression need some education on the subject instead of firing back inaccurate information. Here is some material for you to review: 

First, aggression can be subdivided into a few subcategories. This differs among behaviorists, but the ones we can all agree on are: dominance, possessive, protective, predatory, *fear,* inter-dog, pain-elicited, maternal, and territorial.. 

Studies have shown that German Shepherds exhibited protective and territorial aggression but fear-elicited aggression was most likely seen in the working line German Shepherd. 
If you'd like a resource, click on Borchelt's article here on science direct: 
Aggressive behavior of dogs kept as companion animals: Classification and influence of sex, reproductive status and breed

The fact is this: fear is the baseline for almost every act of aggression. I.e. losing territory, rank, feeling pain, harm of children, etc. 

So again, I will reiterate: A German Shepherd without fear aggression is NOT a true representative of the breed. 
If your working line German Shepherd doesn't have fear aggression, it's useless. Have it sign up for unemployment.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

to OP,
It's hard to say what exactly this trainer is trying to tell you. In what context is he telling you about fear aggression? What is your dog in fear of? I would like to help but need more information.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

The article you posted is interesting and does merit it's own thread, 

I presume your aware the article refers to testing dogs with aggression issues. "245 cases of *aggressive-behavior problems" 

*That might limit accuracy when say comparing a whole breed of dog to the dogs in the study. Or saying a whole breed should behave as the dogs in the study did and all exhibit the same qualities or lack of.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Regarding the op's post, I'd be inclined to go pick up my dog if someone told me that, unless I really trusted the people training the dog. It is complicated anyways, especially dealing with fear aggression and takes time like months- a year to sort out, I guess depending on the severity and the cause. 

Is the fear aggression just showing up since the dog is in an unfamilar place and handled by strangers. They might have an agenda and a time frame to achieve results which don't suit the dog at all.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ballsofmeat,I think what you mean is actually defense drive,which is a normal self preservation instinct.Fear aggression is an over the top anxiety reaction.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

@MadLab - yes, it is a study of behavioral problems but also has a section that has useful analytics that apply here. The section about GSD and fear aggression is simply just a breed analysis and which breeds are more likely to possess fear aggression. GSD being on the top of that list is also the reason why they are fit working dogs. Yes, it does merit its own thread...

@ Dogma - I mean both because there is no defense without perception of fear. 
I guess we have different definitions of fear aggression. To me, fear aggression is simply: aggression due to fear. 
GSD should have a balanced amount of fear aggression with clear headedness and distinguishability. Over the top fear aggression needs a context though... which leads be back to OP...

@OP - To say your dog has lots of fear aggression doesn't mean much until we know what the dog is in fear of. Like MadLab, I would be a little weary of this trainer if that's all the information he has to offer. Is this something you noticed before you sent your dog to this trainer? Do you know what your dog is in fear of?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> GSD being on the top of that list is also the reason why they are fit working dogs.


How is fear an advantage for a working dog?

I don't know where you learn't this theory but I think it is totally wrong. 

Wouldn't you rate confidence and couragousness as being more important traits.

If you do research the Gsd and it's origins you'll see that many steps were made to create a fearless dog. Courage and temperament was tested vigoursly in Schutzhund and should be as important today as it was in the past. 

Imo Fear equals insecurity, noise sensitivity, enviromental stress, unwarrented aggression toward people. It ends up being a major hindrance for the dogs development and learning and is a pain to work with. Not healthy traits to breed into a gene pool.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

MadLab said:


> How is fear an advantage for a working dog?
> 
> I don't know where you learn't this theory but I think it is totally wrong.
> 
> ...


This is not a theory, it's a fact. 

Courage is part of the equation. But what is courage? It's a behavior exhibited in the face of fear & the ability to do something that scares or frightens. 

The goal isn't to create a fearless dog. That would be stupidity. Fear is needed for survival. Fearlessness is anti-survival. If you don't perceive fear, you'll stroll jollily into the jaws of a predator and get killed. No species can survive without fear or perception of threat. 

The goal is to create strong nerves. The definition of a strong nerve dog is one that can face the threat, face a fear, not back down from danger. To be courageous you must perceive fear and you must react to it. How do GSD react to it? With fear aggression aka Defense! This is the purpose of a courage test... how do they react in the face of pressure when survival is on the line. Do they avoid or do they get aggressive and get ready to fight? 

Fear is absolutely an insecurity and it requires balance. A dog that perceives fear should have a balance or distinguishability and courage. A dog with fear and not enough courage has weak nerves. A dog with too much fear and sharpness is a liability and not balanced. A high prey dog with no perception of fear is not balanced either... though they may look impressive on a field.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> This is not a theory, it's a fact.
> 
> Courage is part of the equation. But what is courage? It's a behavior exhibited in the face of fear & the ability to do something that scares or frightens.
> 
> ...


Ballsofmeeat. I've been following this thread. I wasn't convinced but I think what you wrote above is very convincing. 
Fear is the most primal emotion and you're saying that for a dog to have the ability to react courageously (to protect) or defensively (kill or be killed) something has to trigger the initial reaction and that something is an emotion, and that emotion is Fear.

One thing though??
Do you think that what a dog learns through training and repetition supersedes or replaces the fear reaction ie police k9s?


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

Findlay said:


> Ballsofmeeat. I've been following this thread. I wasn't convinced but I think what you wrote above is very convincing.
> Fear is the most primal emotion and you're saying that for a dog to have the ability to react courageously (to protect) or defensively (kill or be killed) something has to trigger the initial reaction and that something is an emotion, and that emotion is Fear.
> 
> One thing though??
> Do you think that what a dog learns through training and repetition supersedes or replaces the fear reaction ie police k9s?


Good question. 
This is the main issue with sport dogs transitioning into LE. The repetition of sport doesn't translate well into LE and produces inconsistent results and often failure. 
A sport dog that is conditioned by repetition can find his/herself unable to successfully transition into LE. LE training is done in multiple locations with many different scenarios - little to no repetition. 
In LE, you gotta know how the dog fairs when faced with adversity in an unfamiliar territory. This is why LE is a whole different ballgame than sport. Any dog with some prey drive and willingness to work can have a level of success on the sport field. It's the repetition and familiarity of environment that masks any fear. They eventually learn that the decoy is no threat and the sport is just a game. They approach the decoy fearlessly and look very impressive. Reality is this: you don't know what your dog has till you put them up against real adversity. And the results vary. This image of "fearlessness" is an illusion that people want to believe in. People want to feel like their dog can take on anything. But trust me, I've seen many dogs and 99% of dogs have a breaking point. Maybe the dog can handle one man, but bring on two, three, four, ten... a breaking point usually shows its face sooner than you'd think. I've seen very special dogs that are driven to fight any amount of pressure... these are very special dogs with very high amounts of fight drive and aggression that are hard to handle and should be reproduced without a doubt. 
And that's why I said previously that a dog needs aggression to be a good working dog. The best LE patrol dogs I've seen are the naturally civil dogs with high aggression and solid nerves/courage. Lots of folks look down on aggression as a flaw, especially on this sight. I, on the other hand, covet it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> Either people on this thread are misinformed or misunderstanding.
> 
> I think the people who are quick to react on this thread on fear aggression need some education on the subject instead of firing back inaccurate information. Here is some material for you to review:
> 
> ...



I read the entire article and did not see that statement anywhere. Perhaps I missed something. Would you please copy and paste that exact statement as it appears in the article and share what page you found that on?

I would also be curious regarding your thoughts on using dogs with dominance motivated aggression in work venues.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> This is not a theory, it's a fact.
> 
> Courage is part of the equation. But what is courage? It's a behavior exhibited in the face of fear & the ability to do something that scares or frightens.
> 
> ...


The bolded statement is what is known as being game, no sense of self preservation, not a trait in German Shepherds regardless of line.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I read the entire article and did not see that statement anywhere. Perhaps I missed something. Would you please copy and paste that exact statement as it appears in the article and share what page you found that on?
> 
> I would also be curious regarding your thoughts on using dogs with dominance motivated aggression in work venues.


"Working breeds, notable the GSD, showed more protective aggression and fear-elicited aggression was most likely in GSD and commonly seen in Cocker Spaniels."

My thoughts on dominance motivated aggression in work venues:
Dominant dogs make for some very strong working protection dogs because dominant aggression is an offensive aggression, not defensive. Dominance aggression is not purely fear-based, through it's sparked by survival fear. It's also an offense predatory-type attack to preserve rank and eliminate threat. For this reason, dominant dogs tend to be dangerous because they often bite for no apparent reason. But they can be trained and have a great usable capacity. 

Best analogy I can think of is this: A professional fighter who is versed in self defense goes out picking off pedestrians because of the potential threat they pose. The fighter is afraid of the threat, but is going on the offensive, kicking ass. This fighter is also looking at a jail sentence, just as lots of dominant dogs who bite because they don't have experienced owners. 

All in all, I select the most dominant dog in a litter 100% of the time for this reason. Training is everything. Well, first genetics, then training.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> "*Working breeds, notable the GSD*, showed more protective aggression and fear-elicited aggression was most likely in GSD and commonly seen in Cocker Spaniels."
> 
> My thoughts on dominance motivated aggression in work venues:
> Dominant dogs make for some very strong working protection dogs because dominant aggression is an offensive aggression, not defensive. Dominance aggression is not purely fear-based, through it's sparked by survival fear. It's also an offense predatory-type attack to preserve rank and eliminate threat. For this reason, dominant dogs tend to be dangerous because they often bite for no apparent reason. But they can be trained and have a great usable capacity.
> ...


Working breeds does not denote working lines within a working breed, and working line GSDs are a small minority among ASL, WGSL, BYB, etc. 

It seems to me that a professional fighter would be just as well versed in offense as well, but I know little about professional fighting.

Are you saying that the dominant dogs that you know pick on Toy Poodles and such, because they view them as threats, (think professional fighters picking on innocent pedestrians)?


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Working breeds does not denote working lines within a working breed, and working line GSDs are a small minority among ASL, WGSL, BYB, etc.
> 
> It seems to me that a professional fighter would be just as well versed in offense as well, but I know little about professional fighting.
> 
> Are you saying that the dominant dogs that you know pick on Toy Poodles and such, because they view them as threats, (think professional fighters picking on innocent pedestrians)?


Maybe it's not the best analogy but I tried. 
All I'm trying to say is the dog is threatened by losing rank and goes on the offensive aggression. That is distinguishable from defensive aggression. Dominant aggression starts with survival fear but the aggressive act is not performed while in fear (unlike typical fear-based aggression). 

There's a lot of documented dominant aggression and bites, especially in households without experienced handlers. Without proper handling, dominant dogs are definitely dangerous. They are notorious biters.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> Maybe it's not the best analogy but I tried.
> All I'm trying to say is *the dog is threatened by losing rank *and goes on the offensive aggression. That is distinguishable from defensive aggression. *Dominant aggression starts with survival fear *but the aggressive act is not performed while in fear (unlike typical fear-based aggression).
> 
> There's a lot of documented dominant aggression and bites, especially in households without experienced handlers. Without proper handling, dominant dogs are definitely dangerous. They are notorious biters.


How does being "threatened by losing rank" translate to "survival fear"? A dog won't die if it loses rank.

Could you provide some of this documentation regarding dominant aggression and bites in household without experienced handlers? I am not familiar with any. 

What makes you believe that dominant dogs are notorious biters?


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How does being "threatened by losing rank" translate to "survival fear"? A dog won't die if it loses rank.
> 
> Could you provide some of this documentation regarding dominant aggression and bites in household without experienced handlers? I am not familiar with any.
> 
> What makes you believe that dominant dogs are notorious biters?


Rank within the pack is survival. The dominant dog eats first. I have a dominant male. My bitches won't touch their bowl of food till he's done with his bowl. A dog may not die if he loses rank but it's a threat that may be perceived that way by the dog. 
I hate to be anthropomorphic with another example but here it goes: you have a job. Getting demoted is now threatening your survival. It's taking food out of your mouth and your children's mouths. 

There's an immense amount of material online that pertains to dominance aggression and bites from dominant dogs. Just google it and you'll find a bunch of material. From my experience, a truly dominant dog (which is rarer than you'd think) can be a terror for an inexperienced handler. Dominant dogs tend to be handler aggressive. They don't want to follow orders and they react aggressively when pushed or punished.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pretty much the only thing BOM has thrown out here is a "concept" that many of us have not heard?? I don't entirely disagree with it myself!

But I also don't seem to be the norm?? 
. 
My experience with my GSD is as follows ...my guy in the 12 to 18 month wound up being actively hostile to company?? No barking, no lunging, no crazy out of control behaviour just a low deep growl and a cold hard stare at company???

He gave me the distinct impression that he was "not" screwing around!! Was it fear based or aggression?? Lou told me that most "non" Pro's" often misdiagnose "fear" as "aggression." 

I have no doubt of that! But what I did know was that I had a GSD that was willing to "bite the crap out of someone if "he" felt the need to regardless of the reason!!

My dog was "unpredictable" regardless of the reason! That's all I needed to know! 

I made changes and it worked out fine. I have only heard the "low rumbling growing" twice in eight years! The first time it was "frightening???" The second time ...I was "grateful!"

That story is here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do-2.html

Granted that was a Dog v Dog situation. What he would if "we" were confronted by a human??? I have no idea?? But ... if someone choses to go "off the hook on us" my dog would be there problem not mine!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BallsofMeat said:


> Rank within the pack is survival. The dominant dog eats first. I have a dominant male. My bitches won't touch their bowl of food till he's done with his bowl. A dog may not die if he loses rank but it's a threat that may be perceived that way by the dog.
> I hate to be anthropomorphic with another example but here it goes: you have a job. Getting demoted is now threatening your survival. It's taking food out of your mouth and your children's mouths.
> 
> There's an immense amount of material online that pertains to dominance aggression and bites from dominant dogs. Just google it and you'll find a bunch of material. From my experience, a truly dominant dog (which is rarer than you'd think) can be a terror for an inexperienced handler. Dominant dogs tend to be handler aggressive. They don't want to follow orders and they react aggressively when pushed or punished.


So you are saying that your male is afraid of your female? Rank in a pack means survival? How? So the lesser ranking dog does not eat first, it will not die.

Take this example, taking a job at another company in a lesser position takes pressure and stress off of you so you may spend more quality time with your family and will probably add years to your life. Things can go either way.

I am sorry, but I find very little information online regarding dominance motivated aggression or bites from dominant dogs. Surely you can add a link or two that supports your stance.

What makes you think an inexperienced handler can't handle a dominant dog?

Is your male dog aggressive with you? Are you sure that is affiliated with dominance or could something else be at play there? Fear aggression perhaps? He is a workingline, isn't he?

Why is a dog that does not want to follow orders be considered dominant? Maybe they are stubborn or independent, perhaps there is a handler problem. Who, and based on what, is this determination made?

Other things can make a dog act aggressively toward its owner when pushed or punished, maybe an ineffective handler, perhaps a heavy handed owner, maybe an unstable dog.. the list goes on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Pretty much the only thing BOM has thrown out here is a "concept" that many of us have not heard?? I don't entirely disagree with it myself!
> 
> But I also don't seem to be the norm??
> .
> ...


What made you consider your dog unpredictable?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What made you consider your dog unpredictable?


 Just saw this. I'm unsure if this is a joke or not??

So instead of going off as I am want to do sigh ...

And because of him my core belief every since, has been in using "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" and having strangers give treats is an anathema to me if your "serious??" I'll be happy to explain.


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## lkcheertex (Apr 20, 2011)

Well my thread seems to have gone off in another direction but to answer some of the questions. My pup is being trained by a highly regarded group of trainers that are internationally known. They train pets as well as police K9s. 

He is there not only to be trained but to try and get at the cause of why he bit the little girl next door. Originally when I told the story to them they thought he had a very high prey drive and when she ran, it just kicked in. During his evaluation they also noticed that he was very nervous and a bit high strung. This is a dog who has never been aggressive with anyone however he is obviously always with us and my other two dogs. Taking away that comfort has seemed to get him all out of sorts. It took them three days to build up enough trust with Baron to let them leash him and take him out of the kennel, he was lunging and barking so badly. They said he barked for nine straight hours after we left. The trainer was telling me his "diagnosis" not to scare me but rather to just give me his evaluation and let me know what we were dealing with.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So you are saying that your male is afraid of your female? Rank in a pack means survival? How? So the lesser ranking dog does not eat first, it will not die.
> 
> Take this example, taking a job at another company in a lesser position takes pressure and stress off of you so you may spend more quality time with your family and will probably add years to your life. Things can go either way.
> 
> ...


You missed the point. Dominance aggression is not pure fear-based aggression. It's sparked by a fear of losing rank but the aggressive act itself is an offensive aggression, not a defensive fear-based aggression. This is biological instinct. The instinct is imbedded in the animal's DNA. Nobody understands how this feels because we're not dogs so no point in speculating. This is nature. Don't try to understand how it feels, understand what it manifests. 

I have a serious question now... Are you F'n with me? Because that analogy was meant for clarity and not for a totally irrelevant rebuttal about a human's desire to spend more time with their family. I hope you're F'n with me because that's one of the dumbest responses in the history of responses. I think you just want to argue. In all your replies, there's an undertone of resentment or something... I hope I'm wrong because that's just ridiculously stupid. 

Keep searching on google. You can do it yourself. It's everywhere.

Most inexperienced handler can't handle a truly dominant dog. By definition, inexperienced = untrained = unschooled = unskilled = ignorant = naive. Attach handler to any of hte previous adjectives and then absorb what I'm telling you because there's already plenty of inexperienced handlers who can't handle a regular house dog let alone a dominant working dog. 

My determinations are made through experience, research, education, and thinking outside the box. Maybe you're the type of person that believes what they read. You need articles. I don't. I do my own research and formulate my opinions. 

All I can do is smh when I waste my time replying to you. This is the last one.


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## BallsofMeat (Apr 11, 2015)

lkcheertex said:


> Well my thread seems to have gone off in another direction but to answer some of the questions. My pup is being trained by a highly regarded group of trainers that are internationally known. They train pets as well as police K9s.
> 
> He is there not only to be trained but to try and get at the cause of why he bit the little girl next door. Originally when I told the story to them they thought he had a very high prey drive and when she ran, it just kicked in. During his evaluation they also noticed that he was very nervous and a bit high strung. This is a dog who has never been aggressive with anyone however he is obviously always with us and my other two dogs. Taking away that comfort has seemed to get him all out of sorts. It took them three days to build up enough trust with Baron to let them leash him and take him out of the kennel, he was lunging and barking so badly. They said he barked for nine straight hours after we left. The trainer was telling me his "diagnosis" not to scare me but rather to just give me his evaluation and let me know what we were dealing with.


Fear of strangers when left in a strange place is not unusual. Hope they're able to help the dog in the ways you need. 
Best.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Uh Oh!! I'll save my reply for a PM or another day!! Because this is most definitely needed!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

BallsofMeat said:


> Most inexperienced handler can't handle a truly dominant dog. By definition, inexperienced = untrained = unschooled = unskilled = ignorant = naive.


 And you could add scared crapless! That would be my wife ...not me! 

I was on a desperate hunt for solutions which I found.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

BOM

Yes, I missed your point that is why I keep asking for clarification and keep receiving analogies that don't make sense to me. I am not the only that asked you for an explanation.

The article you referenced does not target workingline GSDs for fear aggression, I asked you to clarify your statement regarding that article, but it never materialized. 

Am I f'n with you? I think it is the other way around. I am not the one making statements where the supporting document does not match the statement made. I think the analogies rival any of the dumbest comments made, especially when followed with: keep searching on google, do it yourself. It's everywhere. 

I am not finding supporting documentation to your statements on google, you are not forthcoming with any, yet you ask am I f'n with you. I think it is the other way around. 

You have made comments such as: The definition of a strong nerve dog is one that can face the threat, face a fear, not back down from danger.

Self preservation mandates differently. 

You stated: To be courageous you must perceive fear and you must react to it. How do GSD react to it? With fear aggression aka Defense! 

The choices are flight, fight or freeze. Just because it is a GSD does not mean it will react in defense.

And this: This is the purpose of a courage test... how do they react in the face of pressure when survival is on the line. Do they avoid or do they get aggressive and get ready to fight?

How do you know that a dog is fighting for its life? How do you test this?

I also think that it is another opinion that an inexperienced handler can't handle a truly dominant dog, not a given.

Another statement: handlers who can't handle a regular house dog let alone a dominant working dog. 

Are you saying that just because a dog is a house dog, or perhaps you meant to imply "just a pet", that it can't be dominant? 

And this one: "My determinations are made through experience, research, education, and thinking outside the box. Maybe you're the type of person that believes what they read. You need articles. I don't. I do my own research and formulate my opinions."

What research? How can I believe everything I read when I am questioning half of what I am reading right now? IMO, it sounds like most of these posts are copied and pasted but you won't provide the documentation.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

OP - 

I have a fear aggressive dog. She became that way after being attacked on 5 separate occasions by other dogs. 

She went to bootcamp for a week (a VERY good friend of mine who is also a dog behaviourist / trainer) and came back 90% better. I was amazed! The 10% is me. 

We did a whole bunch of faith in handler drills in a number of different situations, and she has come to about 99.99%. The only time she is still "reactive" is when a dog comes too close to her face. BUT, now she at least growls, whereas before she would attack with no warning. 

For the first couple of months, I walked the neighbourhood with a muzzle on her and we walked past other dogs that were on leash. Before she would have gone nuts, but after the "bootcamp" and the scenarios, she was super calm. The muzzle was the added protection for my peace of mind, in case I transmitted anxiety through the leash. 

Would I say my dog is "fixed"? Depending on where I am. If I am going to a friend's house and she has stable, balanced dogs that won't rush Kyleigh's face, then I have no concerns at all. I would NOT bring her to a house where the people's dogs are untrained, unmanageable and basically have no manners / rules / boundaries. 

It's a LOT of work, but if you put the work into it, it can be fixed a lot faster than you think. It's just constant repetition / setting up for successes, and feeling confident. 

Good luck,

Marion


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