# Breeding Long Coats



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Does anyone here breed long coats? I wonder if the propensity to produce them is any more than full littermates with stock coats? It's kind of like the breeding stock Paint horses that can't be shown but can be bred. Anyone know the rules? How would anyone know if people were breeding long coats to begin with without seeing the parents?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Long coat gene is a recessive gene. Two recessive genes (one inherited from each parent) need to be present in the pup for it to be a LC. Stock coated dogs can and many do carry the Recessive LC gene.

I think at this point in the breeds history that breeders breeding to the standard are producing enough long coated pups to fill the need. I love LC's and have three, but I wouldn't intentionally breed (two located coated dogs) to produce LC pups.

Val


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## riorider (Jul 21, 2009)

I see nothing wrong with intentionally breeding long coats for those of us who want them. But..... like every other breeding, the parents should be healthy, and in my book, titled in something. I like working GSDs so the long coat to me just ads beauty and doesn't detract at all from the work the dog does. If you are looking for a wonderful LC breeder with DDR working lines, 

http://www.candlehillshepherds.com/index.html

Sidenote: My husband is retired LE and it is very common for police dogs to be LC, as they are often less expensive as pups. Their coats don't effect their working abilities AT ALL.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Val, we get enough LC from regular breedings to fill the niche of people who want them.

I have a dog with a long coat and thick undercoat (not a GSD) and I can see why, from a working perspective, the long coat is not desireable. My poor dog gets so hot, requires a ton of grooming to keep from being matted, and often has burrs and prickers and crap stuck on him. When it rains, the undercoat gets so heavy and wet. When it snows, he gets clumps of snow and ice all over. If I don't shave or trim the hair on his paws, he gets clumps of ice on his feet and stands there shaking, holding up one paw at a time.

So, from the perspective of setting the standard for a working dog, I would not want a coated dog. My stock coated dogs don't have any of the problems above. Very rarely does anything stick to them. Water and ice slide right off their guard hairs. They blow their undercoat when it gets hot and are much more comfortable. The coat doesn't detract from the work as far as drive and temperament, but if we are looking at ideal structure and coat, to me it is not desireable.


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## riorider (Jul 21, 2009)

I think people should be able to choose the coat they want irregardless of the work invloved. I too, have a mixed breed dog with a heavy coat that I clip down in the summer. I have two regular coated GSDs and one LC. The LC GSD is no more work than the the others. In fact, the long coat is less work. The regular coats put on an incrediblyt thick under coat and shed continuously. There is about 2 months out of the year when their coats look really good. My LC looks good all the time. And she does not get burrs and such like say, a spaniel coat would. Her hair is coarser and things just don't stick to it any more than they do the regular GSD coat.

Irregardless of my experience, I think people have the right to have the type dog they want. If there isn't a demand, there won't be people breeding the dogs. And I stand by my original statement that coat length should be only one of many other breeding variables. 

.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

People can choose. At least in my experience there are often coats available from working and show line breeders. My boy's litter had three or four coats. I don't see any reason to intentionally breed more coats, or intentioanlly breed anything outside the standard, really.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

My question though isn't to breed specifically for long coats but rather would you breed a long coat that was an excellent dog, to a stock coat for the same reasons you would breed any worthy dog, the question is would a long coat produce a higher incidence of long coats than a regular coat, being as they would have the same genetics as the stock coats.

I'm a horse breeder, and specifically breed Spotted Saddle Horses, sometimes my breeding stock horses that missed out on the color, have produced the best coat patterns when bred back to a Spotted Horse, the question I have is would a long coat produce stock coats in a litter if bred back to them. I see so many absolutely GORGEOUS long coats that I would love to have, but is it considered a sin to breed them? LOL!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Only if the dog was an absolutely exceptional representative of the breed in every other way, and then still probably only if the same genetic package couldn't be found in a stock coated dog and despite coat fault the LC was the one, and only, ideal choice for the breeding based on the strengths brought to the table and the ability of both breeding partners to offset one another's weaknesses... and that's just not likely to happen.

As far as likelihood of an LC producing coats if bred to the stock coat, it depends on the coat genes carried by the stock coat. To be an LC, the LC must carry 2 copies of the LC recessive, and will pass one copy on to every offspring.

If the stock coat does not carry the LC recessive, none of the pups will be LCs. They will all be stock coats, but will carry one copy of the LC recessive (so could produce LCs themselves if bred to another dog who also carried the recessive).

If the stock coat does carry the LC recessive, statistically 1/2 of the pups will be LC, and 1/2 stock coats who carry LC recessive.

2 LCs bred together will produce 100% LCs.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I also think you may see more LC's available in the future depending on how things actually shake out with the SV in Germany. They are going to allow them again, but in a class of their own and from what I think I read they own breeding group, so you can't breed a LC to a Stock Coat and get pink papers. They want Stock Coat to Stock Coat and LC to LC breedings.

If someone wants to breed for coats only I guess they have that right to, but I have purchased two from LC breeders and if I want another coat (of course I do) I will just find a breeder with lines I like and put myself on their waiting list. I don't even need to stay in the Showlines, it seems that more workingline coated pups are showing up.

Val


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks, very interesting.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have no problem with people breeding coats.

The type of coat mine has doesn't have a thick undercoat. I met the adult brother, and he has a feathered coat, but it isn't excessive or thick, or puffy like a rough collie or anything like that. Both parents are normal coats.

I am not interested at this point in breeding GSDs, but in theory I have no objection to breeding an outstanding LC to either a stock coat or another LC.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

OK, let's make sure we are all talking about the same coat. Stock coat, Long Stock Coat (Plush), and Long Coat. Am I right? There are actually 3 coats that can associated with the German shepherd? The "true" Long coat has little to no undercoat? A "plush" coat has an under coat with a longer hair for the top coat. The Stock is a shorter hair with an undercoat. Even Stock coat length can vary in it's length.

Is this correct or am I out in space somewhere? I have bred Plush Coats with Standard coats and pups are either plush coated or Stock coated but never a true long coat.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

That's correct about the 3 different types of coats.

Though I hesitate to ever use the term "plush" because it isn't a technical term, and means different things to different people. Some use it to refer to a Long Stock Coat (Long coat WITH undercoat), others use it to refer to any LC or LSC that isn't especially fluffy and hairy compared to most, and yet others use it to refer to a standard stock coat who has a fuller, more fluffy coat than most stock coats (but still isn't a LC or LSC).

Since you never know what someone means when they say "plush", I tend to just refer to the actual coat type: Stock, Long Stock, or Long Coat. Semantics I know, but it can get confusing when different folks use the same word to mean different things.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Effie325, as an owner of 3 Sock LC's you pup will go through a lot of changes before the final coat is established. It ake take two - three years before you see the final coat length, thinkness, under coat.

Val


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Chris, I have to agree with you once again. (That's twice in the same day!!). 

Down here if I say Long Coat Standard, I get the "deer in the head lights" look from folks. If I say "plush coat" they smile and understand. I think they associate long stock coat with long coated collies. I perfer the term "Long Stock Coat" but need to make sure there is an understanding from both parties of the definition.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I've only ever heard the term "plush" to mean a nice full stock coat (which seems to be preferred in the show ring) vs a "close" or tight stock coat. I have long stock coats, which is not the same thing at all. A true long coat does not have an undercoat, but a long stock coat does.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

Well, I was assuming my puppy will have the same type of adult coat as his brother. That dog's coat was feathered, not unlike a flat coated Retriever over all.


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