# What Could I Expect From This Cross?



## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm still researching bloodlines and such. There is a guy that is pretty local to me that is selling puppies from this cross. Well, the dam's name isn't the one that I will list, however is a full sister to the one I've listed. 

The sire:
Bengiman Von Schone Stadt

The dam's full sister:
LABARA VON SCHONE STADT

What could I expect from a cross such as this?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This is a working line litter - Czech and West German. Hopefully the pedigree gurus will chime in, as I'm not qualified to give any information beyond that.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A wide variety of working traits...some good....some not as desirable.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> A wide variety of working traits...some good....some not as desirable.


Like what, exactly? I'm still trying to learn which bloodlines produce which traits and I would like to know both the good and the bad traits about this cross.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It's not as simple as which line produces which traits....it's about the strength of traits and lines, it's about the combining and recombining of traits when two dogs or lines are mixed, it's about whether the two dogs being bred are representative of their line in terms of traits or are they exceptions in their phenotype(outward expression), its about the expotentia effect of the same traits being on both sides of the pedigree, but in one casebeing linebred and in the other case related through phenotype. It's more complex that it seems, but when you tell people this they think you are trying to hoard information from them....not the case at all. It's like explaining a calculus theorem to me....you could try but it really wouldn't make sense to me because I don't understand the interaction of the terms you are using to explain it to me.
It is much easier to analyze an individual dog than project the recombination of genes, traits, and dogs that are in a breeding.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

What is your purpose for the dog? What has the breeder done in those venues to prove the breeding dogs?


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

The breeder has both parents protection trained and has worked with Matthew Duffy in Indiana and he apparently has bought a couple of puppies from this cross. I would also like to possibly get involved with either some Shutzhund or Personal Protection, but first starting off with titling the dog in some basic obedience such as gaining the CGC, and the Novice title and then moving on slowly. I guess what I'm wanting to know is what could be POSSIBILITIES of good traits and bad traits of this cross. I just don't like very vague statements such as there are good traits and bad traits of a cross such as this lol. I want more specific information on the cross.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is very hard for people to look at a pedigree ONLY while knowing nothing about the two dogs as individuals and answer with specifics. 

If your goal is maybe doing SchH than I would make that your goal and look into joining a club. Are you in IN?


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

lhczth said:


> It is very hard for people to look at a pedigree ONLY while knowing nothing about the two dogs as individuals and answer with specifics.
> 
> If your goal is maybe doing SchH than I would make that your goal and look into joining a club. Are you in IN?


I'm not in IN, I'm in KY but I have been searching for some Shutzhund clubs that I could at least go to monthly or more if I could swing it. There is a protection trainer here fairly locally that when/if I get the pup I'll be taking her to him for an evaluation. I guess I should be more specific in asking what dogs of those bloodlines are normally like? I mean, I've seen threads on here before where people have told of common traits that certain bloodlines posess and that's what I'm asking for these. Not necessarily what this cross might be, but what each individual lines has tendencies to produce?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Depending on how far you are from Indi I would go spend some time with their club. Good place to get a feel for a lot of different dogs too. 
http://www.ogindyschutzhundundpolizei.com/


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> A wide variety of working traits...some good....some not as desirable.


Yeah, can't you be a bit more specific as to what is "good" and what is "not as desirable"? Drives, hardness, general attitude, trainability, etc.? I know some folks love Czech lines and others don't, citing things like handler aggression or excessive sharpness. I have heard that Czech lines have very good hunt drive and can be rather civil. 

I have talked about the WGWL/Czech female I once had. She was gorgeous, hard as nails, social, loved other dogs, and had energy and drive through the roof. Compared to other GSDs I've had, she seemed unable to "cap" her own drive and settle down, even if exercised hard--hard exercise seemed to just warm her up! It was very difficult for me to keep her focus and attention for very long, especially in a new environment with lots of distractions. She was as athletic as any dog I've ever seen, even though she had moderate HD, she never showed a hint of pain or lameness and spent most of her life bouncing on two legs like a kangaroo. I do not know if she is typical of her breeding or not.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sometimes I do,....sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to see what others think....is that Okay?


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Sometimes I do,....sometimes I don't. Sometimes I want to see what others think....is that Okay?



I guess what I'm trying to get at is what have you experienced with dogs of similar breeding? What were they like? I'm all about learning from someone else's experiences and gaining new perspectives.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> I'm still researching bloodlines and such. There is a guy that is pretty local to me that is selling puppies from this cross. Well, the dam's name isn't the one that I will list, however is a full sister to the one I've listed.
> 
> The sire:
> Bengiman Von Schone Stadt
> ...


Here is what little I can tell you about the pedigree as I am not familiar with some and I am still learning. 

I love Cordon! I like Grim z Ps. He brings a good amount of prey. But I don't like that he is coming through Xero. I would be worried about nerve strength and hip conformation with this pedigree. I would not be surprised if the dogs out of this were a bit reactive too. I think there is some potential for some nice dogs. But I am speaking very generally here. There could easily be two terrible examples of their lines let alone German Shepherds being bred. I wouldn't know. I don't know those individual parents, what they produced in the past, what their siblings, aunts, uncles, produced. The sire is not titled and I would venture to say the mother isn't either. I would have to completely trust a breeder to go with a breeding out of two untitled parents no matter what the pedigree. That is just my personal comfort zone. I prefer to support breeders who actively work their dogs and take the time to ensure they are doing everything they can to produce good dogs.

I am only speaking about the dogs I have experience with in my dogs pedigrees. Hopefully someone else will chime in with experience in the lines I am less familiar with. 



cliffson1 said:


> I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
> Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!


Well sitting down and reading well written material and videos from experts has it's place as well.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I understand( though the last post wasn't directed to you), and I try to help when I feel I can or should help....but sometimes I like to wait and see what other knowledgable folks have seen....then decide whether to go into depth.
> Also, Bethany; you sound like someone who is truly interested in learning about this breed which requires knowledge, participation, and involvement in some training for understanding.....love to help people like that. But some folks want to sit behind a keyboard and become experts.....that tries my patience....lol!


I understand completely lol. Self proclaimed experts on the internet are what make me ask so many questions to begin with lol. There are lots of people who just "google it" and think they know everything. I welcome your experience with any dogs in the lines and I realize that there are exceptions to everything and not every single dog out of the same lines will be the same. However, it is nice to read what could be possibilities from this cross.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

4TheDawgies said:


> Here is what little I can tell you about the pedigree as I am not familiar with some and I am still learning.
> 
> I love Cordon! I like Grim z Ps. He brings a good amount of prey. But I don't like that he is coming through Xero. I would be worried about nerve strength and hip conformation with this pedigree. I would not be surprised if the dogs out of this were a bit reactive too. I think there is some potential for some nice dogs. But I am speaking very generally here. There could easily be two terrible examples of their lines let alone German Shepherds being bred. I wouldn't know. I don't know those individual parents, what they produced in the past, what their siblings, aunts, uncles, produced. The sire is not titled and I would venture to say the mother isn't either. I would have to completely trust a breeder to go with a breeding out of two untitled parents no matter what the pedigree. That is just my personal comfort zone. I prefer to support breeders who actively work their dogs and take the time to ensure they are doing everything they can to produce good dogs.
> 
> ...


The sire and dam haven't been titled officially as of yet. This is the first breeding from these two and the breeder is going to give both dogs a break and work on titling them this coming year. They are both trained, however. I've talked with the trainer that has worked with both dogs and he has actually bought two puppies from this litter because he liked the parents so well. He didn't give much of a detailed response other than he really liked them and they were great working dogs with a lot of drive and good grips. They have both been OFA'd with good hip scores and elbow scores. They just haven't been added to their online pedigrees. I've double checked and made sure that there were at the very least health clearances done on both dogs, so I shouldn't have any hip problems out of a puppy from this litter, correct? Or can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs? I'm aware that genetics only contribute so much to bad hips and overworking young dogs before they're ready are more responsible than anything for bad hips (or at least according to Leerburg). I do appreciate the insight and will consider these things. Thanks!


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> The sire and dam haven't been titled officially as of yet. This is the first breeding from these two and the breeder is going to give both dogs a break and work on titling them this coming year. They are both trained, however. I've talked with the trainer that has worked with both dogs and he has actually bought two puppies from this litter because he liked the parents so well. He didn't give much of a detailed response other than he really liked them and they were great working dogs with a lot of drive and good grips. They have both been OFA'd with good hip scores and elbow scores. They just haven't been added to their online pedigrees. I've double checked and made sure that there were at the very least health clearances done on both dogs, so I shouldn't have any hip problems out of a puppy from this litter, correct? Or can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs? I'm aware that genetics only contribute so much to bad hips and overworking young dogs before they're ready are more responsible than anything for bad hips (or at least according to Leerburg). I do appreciate the insight and will consider these things. Thanks!


Is this the breeders first time titling dogs? Why is the breeding being done before titling? Is this an experiment breeding to see if the dog produces before they title it? What sort of background do they have in dogs? Have they bred any other litters? Why buy from this litter and not a litter with parents who are already titled, breed surveyed?

I guess my question for you is, why are you asking about this litter specifically? What turned you on to this litter?

The trainer working with the dogs, do you respect his/her opinion? Are they knowledgeable about bloodlines, working drives, temperaments, breeding practices? Why is he buying two dogs at once? Most people buying dogs to do any sort of work buys one to focus on since litter mates can be hard. Unless he is just buying them as a pet. We don't know how much research this trainer put into the idea. 

Two parents having OFA good hips does not indicate puppies with good hips. It goes much much much deeper than that. That is why I mentioned earlier I would actually be concerned about hips. If someone is just breeding lines together willy nilly with no attention paid to the genetics behind those dogs, you can create a pretty big problem quickly.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

4TheDawgies said:


> Is this the breeders first time titling dogs? Why is the breeding being done before titling? Is this an experiment breeding to see if the dog produces before they title it? What sort of background do they have in dogs? Have they bred any other litters? Why buy from this litter and not a litter with parents who are already titled, breed surveyed?
> 
> I guess my question for you is, why are you asking about this litter specifically? What turned you on to this litter?
> 
> ...


This would be my first actual working dog that I would be having trained and going down this adventure with. I don't necessarily plan on using this dog for breeding later on in life, so if it isn't breed worthy, then that's okay with me. I have no idea why the trainer bought two puppies at once. I honestly wouldn't do it myself, but obviously he's more knowledgeable than I am. I don't know if this is the breeder's first time breeding dogs or not, but this is honestly the best quality of working dog that I can afford right now and honestly the best quality locally in my state, period. Kentucky isn't exactly known for it's well rounded and best of the world breeders. I also don't know any breeder in this state that has breed surveyed dogs and titled dogs. I think the purpose in breeding this litter was to see what type of puppies that the dogs produced. I've watched the parents work and they're of pretty good quality. They're also very good family dogs. They've been pets and family companions first and foremost and have also been working on their training. I've also been looking for a solid black pup with at least decent Euro type lines. Also, if it doesn't turn out to be a good working prospect, I'll be happy with a drivey pet. I know you shouldn't select on color alone and I'm not just solely considering these pups because they are black. I honestly like both parents and their temperaments. I haven't made any firm decisions as of yet, so nothing is set in stone as of right now. I'm more trying to get a feel for how these lines may act and then go from there. I know that I remember seeing that some of the dogs on the dam's dam side there were several dogs that had pretty good SV hip ratings. I'm also fairly certain that the parents were both imports, although don't hold me to that. There are still some questions that need to be asked (asked to the breeder). I've visited with them (parents, puppies and breeder) several times already. The parents are raised as family dogs that are kept inside first and then they are working dogs second. A lot of people that I have talked with in my area have said that Matthew Duffy is a pretty well respected working dog trainer in Indiana, so I do respect his opinion on the parents. After all, he has personally worked with each dog individually and knows them quite well.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I know some really great breeders in Kentucky with titled and breed surveyed dogs...

It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> can hip issues still randomly pop up even out of two good scored dogs?


YES!! 

If this were not so, there would be no need to screen for hips--puppies could be "clear by parentage" if HD were as simple as a recessive gene. 

Hip dysplasia is polygenic, meaning that its inheritance is very complicated and its expression depends on a lot of factors both genetic and environmental. Good hipped-dogs tend to beget good-hipped dogs, but two OFA Good parents can and do produce dysplastic dogs, while OFA Fair parents can produce OFA Good or better. The mechanism is not well understood and so all we can do is x-ray every single breeding dog, breed only those with a passing grade, and pray. 



4TheDawgies said:


> It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....


Yes, what is the hurry? And why is your decision based on money? If you want to be a breeder, you're going to need to put a LOT of research into bloodlines and breeders, take your time, and save up your money for the dog you want, not just the dog you can afford.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.

This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten

So, the sire's sire was never titled, as far as I know. Eron's mother Hilda was very drivey, very high energy. I have a daughter of her sister Heidi--I understand that Heidi was calmer and had a sweeter personality. Hilda had trouble staying pregnant because she would circle/spin, IIRC. 

Throughout the rest of the pedigree are some very good, individual dogs--some very high drive, a number are known for their hardness and aggression. Many of them could produce bad nerves if not bred with care. 

So, with two parents and 2 grandparents untitled/untested? -- what will this litter produce? Could be all over the place. Could be very good, could be very bad, could be mediocre and unremarkable, could be fantastic. Impossible to tell--I'd say go see the parents and see them work and ask if you can visit with them when they're not working, too.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.
> 
> This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten
> 
> ...


I have visited with them on multiple occasions. They're really nice family dogs first and foremost. I've also happened to see them work as well. 

As far as me wanting to be breeder, yes. But, EVENTUALLY. Not even when this dog is necessarily of breeding age. I want to get involved with the breed and learn from experience. If this puppy happens to be a great working puppy and grows into a well rounded adult with great hip scores then I MAY consider breeding. Then again, I've got a ton of learning to do still and plan on doing the learning by getting involved and the only way for me to do that is to stay within my budget for right now, because honestly if I were to save up for a great quality puppy and one that's parents are breed surveyed, etc etc it'd cost me an arm and a leg and take me forever to save up for that. By the time I would have saved up for a puppy of that caliber, I will have been at the time line that I want to start breeding in and I would have rather had involvement in training and with certain dogs BEFORE I jump in headfirst to breeding. So, not that it's a hurry necessarily, I just prefer to learn from experience and not just sit behind a computer screen and learn strictly from Google and people on here. Not that there is anything wrong with learning from you guys! You guys are great! BUT, I'm really really wanting to get involved with the breed. Plus, I'm not dead dead set on this litter. I may wait and see how the parents do in their trials and then wait for their next litter. The parents are really really nice dogs and several people that I know of have gotten a puppy from this litter and all have had nothing but great things to say about them. I'm from the horse world and I know that a great pedigree on a horse doesn't always equate a great horse. I had an unregistered horse that was absolutely exceptional. I had more offers to buy her and for a lot higher prices than we ever sold our registered show quality stock for. So, I know that there are exceptions to everything and I plan on doing much more research into this before I jump into getting a pup from this litter. I appreciate everyone trying to help and offer their advice.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> but first starting off with titling the dog in some basic obedience such as gaining the CGC,


 
The CGC is not an obedience title. It is not actually a title at all. It is a VERY basic temperament test for the average pet owner. If you want a real temperament test, then shoot for the BH and for obedience titles, look into actual obedience trials and things such as rally.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Read what Blackthorn wrote very carefully, because it is right on point. YOU can get a nice pup from this breeding...for sure...but all of the warnings being given are valid and can pop up in this breeding....especially the 4theDawgs comments about Xero z PS.....I agree with those views about that dog good and bad.


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> This is an odd combo to me. Not bad, necessarily. But not sure I think there's much to recommend it, either.
> 
> This seems to be a similar breeding (same bloodlines, different mom) that was done: Drama Von schwarz hirten
> 
> ...


That's actually a littermate to the puppies that they have now. I'm not really sure where the information came from that this was their first litter, because obviously it isn't. The breeder sent me pictures of the parent's pedigree and Xena was for sure the dam that he sent. The dam pedigree that I posted was of Xena's full sister, though. I have been mainly talking with a person that just got one of the puppies and they are the people that have told me this was the parents' first litter and maybe they were mistaken. The breeder hadn't told me either way whether it was their first or last breeding, just that he was planning on titling them this coming year and giving them both a break from breeding. The people I have been talking with have said that their pup is VERY drivey and very much ball driven and that matches exactly what I was told about the rest of the litter that is still available. 

Also, as far as CGC goes, if it isn't a title then why does AKC recognize it as a title and list it on the dog's papers? These title things are very confusing to me.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> Also, as far as CGC goes, if it isn't a title then why does AKC recognize it as a title and list it on the dog's papers? These title things are very confusing to me.


I think this just changed--CGC is now considered a title by the AKC, but that didn't happen until recently.

Some folks still think it *shouldn't* be a title, but it is.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Akc does not list CGC on papers as a title, but will as of 2013.

Bethany if you have any desire to possibly breed your new dog in the future, I would recommend waiting. There are breeders who will place dogs on a co-own with you, breeders who sell good puppies from titled parents for far less than $1000, and you could always save up for 6 more months.
If you had intimate knowledge of the dogs in the last three generations the lack of titles would not be such an issue. But you don't, and what if he puppy grows up super? Temperament, health check out? As a beginning breeder it is so much easier to start with proven, tested dogs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> Kentucky isn't exactly known for it's well rounded and best of the world breeders. I also don't know any breeder in this state that has breed surveyed dogs and titled dogs.


What are you talking about...? Have you done your research??? There are loads of people and clubs in this state that are alive and well in schh! BHOT is breeder handler owned and trained, HOT is handler owned and trained through the dog's titles. 
Drache Feld :: german shepherd/schutzhund show dogs, but title. Some HOT/BHOT
Schneiden Fels show dogs, but same thing HOT/BHOT
Vom Vrban Haus  HOT, upcoming BHOT
K9 Motivation Working Line working dogs HOT
Vom Starken Hund HOT, national level competition dogs
Index rotts, boerboels, occasional working dog 
Vom Huelsman German Shepherds training director at greater cincinatti schh club, HOT his dogs
Those are just the few off the top of my head. 

Clubs with people titling/training dogs in schh:
Cedar Hill Working Dog Club
Jeff Lund
Woodburn, KY 
270-529-2014
Greater Cincinnati SchH Club
Tom Huelsman
Crittenden, KY 
859-485-6959
 Kentucky Hundesport Klub
Brandon Wilson
Bowling Green, KY 
270-202-9250 
 Kentucky Ridge Hundesport (KY)
Louise Hindert
513-607-0230 
Twin Beech SchH Club
Ronnie Hill
Club meets near Scottsdale KY
615-889-2003 
Wildcat Schutzhund Club
Dan Cox
Georgetown, KY 
502-863-0769 




4TheDawgies said:


> I know some really great breeders in Kentucky with titled and breed surveyed dogs...
> 
> It sounds like you would go with something better if it were more available and cheaper for you. You keep making excuses for these dogs and why you are letting this or that slide. You have no idea if this person has bred before, but you trust their opinions on breeding dogs together. I assure you far far far more goes into breeding than just liking the parents....


*spot on*


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

To check the hip/elbow ratings of the parents you can go to the OFA website and put in either their names or registration numbers.

http://www.offa.org/

When looking at the predictability of how a dog might produce as far as hips you have to look at both the depth (parents, grandparents, etc) and breadth (siblings, aunts, uncles, 1/2 sibling, cousins, etc).

Now when looking at the dogs and possible little, how a dog produces is more involved than just looking at the parents themselves. Yes, I'll see some of the parents, but I have found that I often see the grandparents in a litter more so than the parents themselves. The sire and dam of this litter may be great dogs, but who were their parents? Were they great dogs?


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> That's actually a littermate to the puppies that they have now. I'm not really sure where the information came from that this was their first litter, because obviously it isn't.


It was just a question if they were experienced breeding. Because even with experienced breeders, it would take a LOT of convincing and something that I can personally see in those dogs. Not just taking the word of the breeder. 

At the end of the day it's your dog, your choice, your money. If you want the dog you are going to buy it no matter what anyone else here says. But I think there are some things that would make me personally walk away. 

But I would like to add one extra part. I have learned some from my poorly bred shepherds. But nothing has taught me more than my well bred dogs versus my poorly bred dogs. The difference in the breeding is very drastic. This is why I personally recommend avoiding poor breeding practices so you can save yourself the heartache, money and trouble. 

You may afford yourself a better dog now going with this breeder or another similar. But you may end up paying double or triple that in vet bills because someone doesn't understand the genetics they are playing with. 

Like everyone said, you may get a really great dog out of this. Or you may get something really poorly put together. I personally choose to stack my deck in my favor and buy from titled, health tested, temperament tested dogs from knowledgeable people who not only know dogs, but genetics and health as well.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

lhczth said:


> Depending on how far you are from Indi I would go spend some time with their club. Good place to get a feel for a lot of different dogs too.
> http://www.ogindyschutzhundundpolizei.com/


 
Lisa,
According to someone we told to go up there, they told they person they are full and not accepting new members.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> I'm still researching bloodlines and such. There is a guy that is pretty local to me that is selling puppies from this cross. Well, the dam's name isn't the one that I will list, however is a full sister to the one I've listed.
> 
> The sire:
> Bengiman Von Schone Stadt
> ...


Is this the Schone Stadt breeder or someone else?


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> What are you talking about...? Have you done your research??? There are loads of people and clubs in this state that are alive and well in schh! BHOT is breeder handler owned and trained, HOT is handler owned and trained through the dog's titles.
> Drache Feld :: german shepherd/schutzhund show dogs, but title. Some HOT/BHOT
> Schneiden Fels show dogs, but same thing HOT/BHOT
> Vom Vrban Haus  HOT, upcoming BHOT
> ...


And every single one of those clubs are well over an hour or two drive away from both myself and the breeder. If there were a Schutzhund club in Louisville, it'd be a different story and I wouldn't understand where the breeder is coming from in not having his dogs titled. But, not everyone is capable of driving that far every week or every time there is a show to title their dogs. I've seen FAR WORSE breeders charging way more for their back yard and poorly bred puppies with absolutely zero health clearances. I'm not understanding why I'm seemingly being attacked for trying to learn about this pedigree. I didn't ask for people to criticize me for wanting a pup out of this litter and I dang sure didn't ask for people's opinions on the breeder. I asked for people's opinions on the bloodlines and what they could POSSIBLY produce. I've read the article on what makes a good breeder. I'm fully aware that this isn't the best and first most best choice for a breeder, but it is the best breeder here locally. 99% of breeders here locally to me don't run blood panels on their dogs, don't hip and elbow certify their dogs and they dang sure don't even bother with training and at least wanting to try to title their dogs. Most of them don't even have a clue about the bloodlines that they have and some breeders here are breeding Cont.KC registered dogs with unknown parentage and continuing to charge upwards of $600 for those unknown lineaged puppies. So, this isn't the worst decision of a breeder that someone from my area could choose, but it isn't the best either. I'm well aware of that. And yes, I have done my research. Kentucky is ranked one of the worst states in the nation for animal abuse and neglect and horrible breeders/puppy mills.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sue, that's too bad. The OP could still go watch.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

An hour or two is not that far.

We have people frm Louisville and Lexington, KY come and train with us. (2.5-3 hours away....). Others from Knoxville.

Husband, for good helperwork, goes to ATL (4.5 hours).

No, you need to do more research or you would have come up with more and active working breeders.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bethany...don't get upset...some posters try to honestly answer your initial post in their response, others who often can't answer but must say something will go into ethical tangents. Just focus on the answers that meet your needs....that's all.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

bethany.cole2013 said:


> *And every single one of those clubs are well over an hour or two drive away from both myself and the breeder.* If there were a Schutzhund club in Louisville, it'd be a different story and I wouldn't understand where the breeder is coming from in not having his dogs titled. But, not everyone is capable of driving that far every week or every time there is a show to title their dogs.


I drive 1.5hrs each way for one club in Lexington 1-2x a week for the past 1.5 years. I have to drive 1.5hrs for another near Cincinnati. It is 3 hours each way to go up to Ohio to train with Dean Calderon. Planning on going to Sue's club in Nashville this week that is 3 hrs each way. Get my point...?

Here's the plain truth you HAVE to accept if you get into dogs: you MUST be willing to travel, spend significant time, blood, sweat, tears, and money when you plan to breed GOOD dogs. Not being able to travel one or two hrs this way or that way is not an excuse - sorry. I am reminded of what judge Mike Hamilton said at Sue and Gabor's trial in TN last week: if it was easy, everybody would be doing it! Breeding, titling, working dogs takes time, money, and a lot of personal investment. There are plenty doing it right - support those that deserve your business and patronage. It's easy to talk the talk. Anybody can do that - but there are a select few that will go out and walk the walk as well 



Smithie86 said:


> An hour or two is not that far.
> 
> No, you need to do more research or you would have come up with more and active working breeders.


:thumbup:


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

qbchottu said:


> Here's the plain truth you HAVE to accept if you get into dogs: you MUST be willing to travel, spend significant time, blood, sweat, tears, and money when you plan to breed GOOD dogs. Not being able to travel one or two hrs this way or that way is not an excuse - sorry. I am reminded of what judge Mike Hamilton said at Sue and Gabor's trial in TN last week: if it was easy, everybody would be doing it! Breeding, titling, working dogs takes time, money, and a lot of personal investment. There are plenty doing it right - support those that deserve your business and patronage. It's easy to talk the talk. Anybody can do that - but there are a select few that will go out and walk the walk as well  :thumbup:


Very true. It is very easy to hand over a dog for training, say that you do not like trialing, it is too far if more than 30 minutes. etc.. But, if the dogs are not worked and tested, you can not say they have the ability to do "x"; be it schutzhund, agility, herding, etc....


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

My last post and this thread and then I will request that it be locked due to no one else providing any relevant information to the original post. My point is, not everyone is ABLE to travel long distances necessarily right now. I'm not saying that I'm not WILLING to travel. I am, but I'm not ABLE to for various personal reasons right now that I won't go into. That's great that you have people from that far willing and able to drive to your club. I'm not able to right now, doesn't mean I won't be able to in the future, so I would appreciate not being hounded and criticized for it right now. I have already said that NOTHING IS SET IN STONE and I haven't committed to getting a pup from this litter. Like I said in my original post, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about bloodlines and such and there isn't any real rush besides my enthusiasm for wanting to get involved in the breed as soon as I possibly can. Now, with that being said I do very much appreciate the people that did offer great and relevant answers. You have been very helpful and that is all I have to say and all I will say at this point.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

No one is hounding and criticizing you. But, to be able to say a dog can do this or that, etc. you have to be able to train and test. Very simple.

If the time is not right for you, then wait. Wait until you research a bit more and are able to have the time and focus. Meanwhile, learn all that you can.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Couple things here Bethany. 

First and foremost, if you want to be a breeder, you're going to have to grow a VERY tough skin. If you think you personally have been "criticized", "hounded", or "attacked", in this thread, I have to let you know... what's been said in this thread is NOTHING like what you will get as a breeder. Absolutely nothing. Just for being a dog breeder, some folks will automatically hate you. Others will have an issue with you doing things this way or that way. No matter what you do, someone somewhere will have a problem with it. If you change and do it their way, someone else will have a problem with that. You could be the best dog breeder in the world--it doesn't matter, people will still criticize, hound and attack you FOR REAL. 

I am not telling you this in order to discourage you--I am telling you this so you can get ready for it. Breeders are like politicians. They will get criticized. How they react to criticism is viewed with as much importance as anything, so think about your strategy for dealing with it, and practice dealing with criticism graciously. You wil have to bite your tongue A LOT, but you have to deal with criticism one way or another, and dealing with it graciously is better for YOU in the long run. 



bethany.cole2013 said:


> I'm fully aware that this isn't the best and first most best choice for a breeder,


Then why would you buy a dog from them? If you could have any dog you wanted, anywhere in the world, and money is no object, what would you want?

Now, look around for something similar closer to home. As far as you're willing to go, as much as you're willing to pay. Does it exist? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. If it doesn't, think about what you would need to do to make it happen anyway. Then, see if you CAN make it happen.

This is an animal you have to live with for 10-15 years, your first GSD, the dog you will learn on, the dog that you'll spend a LOT of time with, a lot of training. Ideally, you would want a dog from the type of bloodlines you will eventually want to breed, because just by getting to know an example of those bloodlines, you'll be ahead in knowledge and experience of them.

You DON'T have to take the first thing that is convenient. It is okay to hold out for what you really want. As a breeder, you will HAVE to hold out for what you really want, or there's no point in it.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think there has been anything said to you that has been out of line. You are getting into how complicated it gets when researching and buying a puppy. It's simple to say: I want a puppy and to possibly breed. But as you are finding out when you start down a line of questioning when deciding on a breeder, there are a LOT of things that you didn't even realize you had to consider before getting a pup. The reason why it matters if you can afford the time/money/resources to train is because it matters when deciding on a line, litter, or pup. You wouldn't put a high drive top sport prospect with someone that works 80hrs/week and has no time to devote to training. You wouldn't put an independent, slow to mature, tough male with a novice home. So it matters what you are able and willing to do with the dog. With people asking the questions about the dam, sire, breeder, and cross in question, you start to realize all the components to consider when selecting a puppy. I think you've gotten lots of good ideas and questions to ask. This is not criticism - this is what I would ask of ANY breeder or puppy that I was planning to get. Why am I getting this dog, is that dog able to fit my purpose, what has the breeder done to gain my confidence in the venues I wish to participate in, what do the bloodlines and pedigree offer in terms of pursing my goals for this dog, why this breeder, etc.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

While schutzhund may be the best test for breeding, it is not the only form of titling available. I know there are AKC obedience and agility clubs in Louisville. And one of the biggest show weeks in the country is held there in March. So there are many ways to prove a dog's suitablity for breeding.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yep I agree

Trisha Koetter in Floyds Knobs IN. great for agility and rally. flyingfeetagility.com. 
Carol Knight, thedogspotky.com in Mt. Washington KY. ob, agility, rally. 
Shamrock Acres in Anchorage. agility and obedience


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## bethany.cole2013 (Sep 28, 2012)

Andaka said:


> While schutzhund may be the best test for breeding, it is not the only form of titling available. I know there are AKC obedience and agility clubs in Louisville. And one of the biggest show weeks in the country is held there in March. So there are many ways to prove a dog's suitablity for breeding.



Funny you should say that, because I do have an interest in doing AKC obedience and possibly agility/rally as well. IF I were to get a puppy from this litter and IF the puppy would be ready by March I would greatly consider showing it in obedience in March in Louisville.


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