# 5 German Shepherd pack walk



## Msmaria

And to think its taken me 8 1/2 months to get that far with one dog.


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## Gretchen

Interesting video. What a tight knit group! I liked that the pedestrians and the police did not bother this guy or his dogs, I feel like I draw more attention with my one dog.

I noticed that they do not seem observant like my dog, Molly is constantly scanning the environment.


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## kiya

He's on a GSD FB group I belong to.


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## trcy

Gretchen said:


> I noticed that they do not seem observant like my dog, Molly is constantly scanning the environment.


 Their focus is on the handler/owner..as it should be.


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## Sp00ks

That one on the left got distracted a couple times. 

The cop doesn't want to deal with 5 Shepherds, not worth the paper work.  

That is quite impressive. The safest walk in LA.


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## trcy

Sp00ks said:


> That is quite impressive. The safest walk in LA.


I think it's in MA.


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## Sp00ks

Ha, I think your right. Don't know where I got LA from. However, my statement stands, just change location  and still quite impressive.


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## LaRen616

The one on the right looked very, very nervous.

I thought this video was awesome though. Good dogs!


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## Cassidy's Mom

No leashes, but they are wearing e-collars.


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## Gretchen

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No leashes, but they are wearing e-collars.


Good for you to notice this, I was too much in awe to pay attention.


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## Baillif

Hate to be debbie downer but, you can tell by the body language lots of aversive use though. You could easily produce this in a day or two with constant e collar pressure to create velcro dogs. They see the owner as the safezone to avoid the shocks. Effective though.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Baillif said:


> Hate to be debbie downer but, you can tell by the body language lots of aversive use though.


I thought so too, and when I viewed it full screen you can see the end of the collar sticking up on the dog on the far right when the camera zooms in while they wait at the curb. When the dog turns it's head to the right you can actually see the receiver.

ETA: While it is certainly impressive looking, I have no need to walk my dogs off leash down busy streets next to traffic (not to mention: leash laws!), so I'd rather have nice loose leash skills any day.


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## Sp00ks

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I thought so too, and when I viewed it full screen you can see the end of the collar sticking up on the dog on the far right when the camera zooms in while they wait at the curb. When the dog turns it's head to the right you can actually see the receiver.


I saw that and just thought it was the end of the collar sticking up like you see with leather collars sometimes. 

That sort of changes the whole dynamic....


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## stmcfred

Very impressive but what about leash laws?


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## SageDogs

Oh my sweet sugar lanta. 

I'm taking notes. 

NEW GOAL! 


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## SageDogs

Edit: W/out the need for shock collars. 
Just watched the video again, I agree...they look nervous. 

New goal! More positively reinforced pack walk! 


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## Baillif

It would be way more impressive if all five were looking at his face the tails were up and they were bouncing happily. You can't get that as quickly and it takes a lot more work. This kinda stuff is created so quickly with basic knowledge about e collars it just isn't impressive to people who are in the know. Damned impressive if you haven't seen how fast it works before though. 

I'm not saying what hes doing is wrong or barbaric or anything like that, argument is certainly there it is more humane than prong. If you wanted to use e collar in the place of leash that's pretty much how you do it. Could have greatly improved their body language with some +R in there too.


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## GSDAlphaMom

Poor dogs they looked stressed...one false move and shock! Not one looks happy to be on a walk.


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## Sri

Am I wrong in thinking they don't seem to be happy dogs? Mine will sniff and look around, but comes back to me when I say 'lets go'. These seem to be scared to step away from the handler so much they are all glued to him. The philosophy of owning a dog is so complicated . I can't argue with people who say their dogs are too scared to take a step away from them and that proves their method is right.


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## Baillif

This is a good example of how there is a cost associated with whatever method of training you use. You're the one that decides what is worth it and what isn't


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## FrankieC

Baillif said:


> It would be way more impressive if all five were looking at his face the tails were up and they were bouncing happily.


That's exactly how I see it. 

My first thought was .. ya but are they having fun? It doesn't look that way to me at all.


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## fredh

That was impressive! I watched the whole 5 minutes. No need for criticism here !


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## ken k

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No leashes, but they are wearing e-collars.


good call, but impressive


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## selzer

I wasn't all that impressed. 

I think the person has a form of control on the dogs. And the dogs are paying zero attention to other pedestrians which is good. I guess. But, what would happen if a loose dog ran up to the group. With one dog, or even two you might be able to manage that situation, but what are you going to do with five of them?

We have a leash law in Ohio, but it is written in such a way that if you have the dog under sufficient control that is acceptable. I walk Babs without a leash, and Arwen she could be walked anywhere at any time with no leash. But I wouldn't do two at once without a leash. But then again, they are intact bitches, and while some are ok with each other, why set up a situation where they may decide they are not, and then you have to hike back to the vehicle with two bitches that want to eat each other. No thanks. If I take two, I have muzzles in my pocket and can slap those babies on quicker than you can say EH! No! But what is the fun of taking a walk if you have to muzzle them, or put e-collars on them and shock them. 

How do you shock properly when you have five? Master controller and Fido's off hit the third button? 

When I walk one dog, I can have a bonding moment with one dog. When I have two out there, it is much less fun, and my awareness has to be much higher.


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## Msmaria

selzer said:


> I wasn't all that impressed.
> 
> I think the person has a form of control on the dogs. And the dogs are paying zero attention to other pedestrians which is good. I guess. But, what would happen if a loose dog ran up to the group. With one dog, or even two you might be able to manage that situation, but what are you going to do with five of them?
> 
> We have a leash law in Ohio, but it is written in such a way that if you have the dog under sufficient control that is acceptable. I walk Babs without a leash, and Arwen she could be walked anywhere at any time with no leash. But I wouldn't do two at once without a leash. But then again, they are intact bitches, and while some are ok with each other, why set up a situation where they may decide they are not, and then you have to hike back to the vehicle with two bitches that want to eat each other. No thanks. If I take two, I have muzzles in my pocket and can slap those babies on quicker than you can say EH! No! But what is the fun of taking a walk if you have to muzzle them, or put e-collars on them and shock them.
> 
> How do you shock properly when you have five? Master controller and Fido's off hit the third button?
> 
> When I walk one dog, I can have a bonding moment with one dog. When I have two out there, it is much less fun, and my awareness has to be much higher.


Maybe he walks the dog with leashes but was using this as a demonstration of the kennel's training. After all I doubt people walk their dog with a camera guy behind them everyday.


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## TAR HEEL MOM

Here's his FB page. Very interesting. He has such beautiful dogs.

And I did learn something...pea gravel! I have been trying to decide what to put in my dog yard since they have destroyed the grass and it is now mud. I debated full-on mulch but now I'm thinking gravel.

https://www.facebook.com/GriffinShepherdKennels


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## wolfy dog

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No leashes, but they are wearing e-collars.


Exactly. Right away I observed how subdued they walked. Then saw the e-collars and the worried look into one dog's eyes. I would be embarrased by walking my dogs like that and to have them be afraid to leave my side. I have worked with dogs that were trained that way; felt sorry for them.
I stopped watching after about ten seconds. Does he have the remote in his hands?
I prefer my dgs to feel happy to walk with me


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## ken k

if you look at some of the videos on the facebook page, hes walking 6, without any collars at all


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## MaryD

I believe this person is known as something like The Good Shepherd. I live on Cape Cod and have seen him several times walking the dogs but I thought they were on leashes. Very impressive to see him on the main roads of Hyannis. 
Mary and GS pup Quinn


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## Baillif

If you practice good collar discipline with stuff like putting it on 15 minutes before any correction and taking it off 15 minutes after any correction you can prevent any of those dogs from becoming collar wise. The collar would have gone onto the least trained 1 or 2 of the group. 

Enough time on the dogs you would very rarely have to administer a correction after that, and he would have proofed against distractions and that kind of thing. You don't need to always have the collars on the dogs to get the behavior as long as you took steps to prevent them from becoming collar wise. If you don't take those steps they make the association with the corrections and the collar being on or off.

It's kind of like horses behind an electric fence. You only have to keep it on till they stop trying to test it, and then you can keep it off until you get a new horse.


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## Lilie

It made me sad to watch it. I couldn't watch the entire thing. Not a goal I'd strive for. Seemed like the handler was only seeking glory and the dogs were paying the price.


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## selzer

I only saw three minutes of it before my player crashed, but I hated the way the dogs were crushed into him. It isn't natural. Sorry. It would be like walking through a hip deep slurry. 

I have seen u-tubes of the guy with all the fox hounds, and that was a lot more relaxed. This wasn't relaxed. Not one of those dogs were exuding confidence. No, if I was a mugger, I would find an easier mark, but I dunno. It really doesn't do anything for me. 

This u-tube impresses me. It is just one dog, but what a dog! And the dog is engaged, thinking, smart, happy, athletic, head up, ears up, tail wagging. I would like to do this with one of mine. I wouldn't want to do that pack walk thing, not the way they are doing it. 
Just Jumpy the dog - YouTube


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## Muskeg

This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: 




Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


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## selzer

Muskeg, that's the one! There's another with foxhounds that is fun, but this is pretty awesome. And there were other dogs, horses, cars, cyclists, joggers. He did not expect them to be 100% behind him or on task, but when it counted, he had them where they needed to be. Cool vid. And my player did not crash through all 9 minutes.


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## Lilie

Muskeg - THAT was cool! That would be a goal I'd work towards. Thanks for posting it!!! Makes me want to be a dog in his pack!!!


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## Kahrg4

Gotta agree that the dogs don't seem to be having any fun at all in the OP. What really clinched it for me was at 4:20 when a passerby said 'hi' to a dog that happened to look up at her. Upon hearing her voice the poor thing immediately skittered away from her and back into position. I appreciate control but agree with Baillif, at what price?


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## Kahrg4

Muskeg, love that video!


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## doggiedad

if your dog holds a tight heel on or off leash at 8&1/2 months that's good.
turn it up a knotch. teach him/her to heel on either side with or without
a leash.



Msmaria said:


> And to think its taken me 8 1/2 months to get that far with one dog.
> Walking my pack in public - YouTube


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## Baillif

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: freerunning sleddogs - YouTube
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


Now, THAT'S impressive


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## Angelina03

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: freerunning sleddogs - YouTube
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


Wow!


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## Arlene/Archer

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: freerunning sleddogs - YouTube
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


That's exactly the video I would have posted, thank you Muskeg! I don't like the GSD pack walk at all and think the dogs look miserable; as others have said, control, but at what price. I'd rather have a happy engaged dog who is still a pleasure to walk than some kind of robotic zombie afraid to make one false move.


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## TAR HEEL MOM

THAT was amazing!


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## Blanketback

Just out of curiosity, for those that like to imagine: how would the pack walk dogs react to a mugger? Don't say it can't happen because I've been threatened while walking my GSD - the drugs these days are weird indeed, lol. 

But seriously, I hate the way these dogs are walking! I like offleash walking, but I want my dog to be aware of the surroundings. I want my dog to be about 12" to 18" away from me too - that video gave me claustrophobia.


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## wolfy dog

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video:
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


That's called dog training and requires intelligence and humility. The 5 GSDs in the first video have been forced/shocked into submission.


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## David Winners

Sad to see these dogs under this much stress. Years ago this would have been normal for most trainers. Things are different now for the trainers that use their brains instead of taking the easy road.

You can make a dog avoid anything with an e-collar... BUT If you take the same dogs, same tools, but add some collar imprinting, which teaches the dog how to turn the stim off, and work at much lower stim levels, you have the same end result with the dogs having much less stress and conflict. 

You can use the collar to communicate with the dogs and not deliver harsh punishments.

David Winners


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## LaRen616

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: freerunning sleddogs - YouTube
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


I LOVE this video! This is wonderful!


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## Mrs.P

The walk is for the owner not the dogs. This guy is from my home town and his dogs are always so anxious -in avoidance. not impressed plays up the dominance theory too much. I've tried to talk to him about his breedings and the dog's pedigrees health tests titles ect and let's just say it was a quick conversation....


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## Bequavious

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: freerunning sleddogs - YouTube
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


So cool!! When I saw the first video I was trying to figure out why the dogs were so close to him. I thought it might have been because it's an urban environment, but it didn't look fun for the dogs or the owner. This is much more relaxed and still with enough control to be get around other people/dogs.


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## Waldi

I like it, did the same thing with my golden, she does walk without leash in fron of me and respose to verbal and hands control. She was very cooperative and never used any form of pressure to train her, except for willing participation and treats. I do put her on the leash if unknown dogs are approching and are on the leash to minimize risks. Now I have GS femal puppy (11 months) she does follow with footsteps on my older dog and walk without leash ( I put her on the leash when other dogs are approaching), I would not say I would be comfy with lettting her go on full urban environment yet but once she is mature, I think I can do the same. She is very focused on us and off-leash parks always sticks to us and waits for verbar confirmation that she can run and play with other dogs.


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## Sri

Muskeg said:


> This is my favorite pack walk (well, run) video: freerunning sleddogs - YouTube
> 
> Granted, these dogs have quite a bit of hound in them and the training is different than with a shepherd, but the dogs are so happy!


How awesome is that!


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## Charlie W

Hmmm, I didn't enjoy this video at all. I put e-collars on my dogs when we ride through farms with stock, I don't imagine I need them now, but I do it for my peace of mind. It's been so long since either of them had the collar used on them, that I can't remember it, and even in the beginning it was very infrequent.
My dogs don't behave any differently when wearing the collars than when they're not.. These dogs seem a little too "flat" in their demeanour for my liking.. Makes me wonder how often they have been shocked and at what setting..


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## MichaelE

SQUIRREL! 

I didn't think the dogs were enjoying themselves very much.

I don't know about anyone else, but I want my dog looking around and paying attention to the environment.

Lisl can walk just fine and listen to commands without looking at me 100% of the time. And she can walk off lead without a shock collar too.


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## Harry and Lola

fantastic, really enjoyed watching this


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## mamajag

This video is sad. Those dogs are miserable.


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## sparra

I don't get this forum sometimes.
We have so many threads on ecollars and how they are an effective tool yet here we have 5 dogs doing something most can only dream of and it is not as credible cause it is via an ecollar.
You can't have it both ways......it is either just another tool or dogs trained via them are less deserving of admiration. Looking at the trainers info this is not just some lacky who wishes to make his dogs miserable.
I was impressed by the video.....kudos to him.


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## mamajag

Look at the body language of the dogs. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they are obeying out of fear and not because they are enjoying a walk with him.

I'm sure ecollars have their place. It just looks like they've been misused in this case. I wouldn't let him near Gretchen.


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## sparra

Look at the environment they being walked in.......they are not out in the park or a quiet trail or running along in the country side behind a bike. They are in a very busy street......people around, cars whizzing past....to me they are not going to appear overly outgoing.....cautious comes to mind.
I think you are reading way too much into it......
Maybe they just know that they need to be at full attention as it is such a busy place.


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## carmspack

went to the facebook page and there is an entry which shows a young boy in a pen with 10 pups (waiting for their forever home) , and a video of a young pup kept back for training . The pups with the boy , they seem disconnected too. They should be crawling over the boy , pulling his shoe laces , mugging him. Instead there is one that remains with him and the others all have that repressed lifeless , dispirited , resigned , squashed look. A pup that age should have energy and confidence beaming out of its eyes .

--- "Look at the environment they being walked in.......they are not out in the park or a quiet trail or running along in the country side behind a bike. They are in a very busy street......people around, cars whizzing past....to me they are not going to appear overly outgoing.....cautious comes to mind."


to me that was not a very busy street, busy time of day , busy time of season -- the dogs look worried .

The GSD as a breed , by its character, is not a "pack" dog like the hounds would be . They are meant to have a special relationship , one on one with the master. Even if you had multiple dogs , you have to make time to give them treatment and consideration as if they were the only dog in the world. One on one.


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## sparra

We can agree to disagree.......

Seems a shame to criticise someone who is out there "impressing" the general public with such a display.
I looked at his facebook page too and there were many photos of him out in public with dogs being good ambassadors of the breed........but no...still not good enough it would appear.


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## carmspack

I didn't see much representation of "the breed" . Did see a bunch of cowed black and red dogs with erect ears.

"the breed" is defined by a regal look of eagles, alert, competent, confident .


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## sparra

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../450226-perception-german-sheherds-today.html

In the real world this is how the breed is "defined"........


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## Yoshi

I was very much impressed on how the dogs were so obedient! 

But now that everyone has pointed it out there seems to be two different kinds of heels out there. 

I've been meaning to ask why is there a heel like that, that is seen in the first video, where the dogs pad obediently by their master's side or behind, staring straight ahead. This is the kind of heel I usually see in real life.

Then there's the heel I have been seeing in those videos where the dogs are doing the IPO kind's of exercises, where they are bouncing and looking straight up at their masters, some are kind of drooling on their master's legs and it looks funny. 

EDIT: I only ever taught my previous dog a very loose heel, as I never really needed to teach my dog something like that before. It was more of a "stay close".


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## selzer

sparra said:


> I don't get this forum sometimes.
> We have so many threads on ecollars and how they are an effective tool yet here we have 5 dogs doing something most can only dream of and it is not as credible cause it is via an ecollar.
> You can't have it both ways......it is either just another tool or dogs trained via them are less deserving of admiration. Looking at the trainers info this is not just some lacky who wishes to make his dogs miserable.
> I was impressed by the video.....kudos to him.


There are methods of training with any tool that can be very negative. Those dogs do not look comfortable in that video. It appears that they are swamped next to their owner out of fear of taking a wrong step, and people can and do train with various tools for this result. It is not the tool, it is the training and the result we are critical of. 

If we can walk one dog who is comfortable, then we are doing better than this yayhoo. Sorry. Who cares if you can walk five of them if you have to hobble them to do it. You don't need to use a physical hobble to hobble a dog. You can use a training method/tool. I would be embarrassed if those were my dogs. 

I do not walk five at a time. I can walk one at a time off lead. I have one that will look at my face and turn with me and pay close attention to everything I do. I did not aim for that. In fact, I did not realize it was actually happening until I saw the stream of photos the professional photographer at the show took. But she was happy, and engaged, off lead, and doing her thing. Not like these dogs. 

These are a working breed with a brain. To herd sheep, or do police/military work, which the breed was developed/designed for, the dog has to have some independence, it has to make decisions. It should NEVER look like it will be splattered if it puts a toe out of line. To guide a blind person, the dog must be able to use its judgement and disobey its owner in some circumstances. Those dogs are simply not capable of that. And _that _is what is wrong with that video. Yuck.


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## JakodaCD OA

there is alot of negative controversary surrounding this guy, it may look good in public but there's a whole lot more going on that would make me "run" from this person..


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## simba405

Some of those dogs seem too scared to even look up. Yikes! 

With that said how many of you putting this guy down can walk your dog without leash down a busy street and then cross the road? His methods are harsh but at least those dogs won't be bolting after any squirrels! 

You can see both the positive and negative effects of an Ecollar in the video.


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## mamajag

simba405 said:


> Some of those dogs seem too scared to even look up. Yikes!
> 
> With that said how many of you putting this guy down can walk your dog without leash down a busy street and then cross the road? His methods are harsh but at least those dogs won't be bolting after any squirrels!
> 
> You can see both the positive and negative effects of an Ecollar in the video.


I'd rather have to use a leash on Gretchen forever than to break her spirit like that. I'd be ashamed to walk those dogs down the street lest someone think I was the person who destroyed them.


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## simba405

mamajag said:


> I'd rather have to use a leash on Gretchen forever than to break her spirit like that. I'd be ashamed to walk those dogs down the street lest someone think I was the person who destroyed them.


Right. So basically you can't. Say whatever you want but he gets results that you cannot. 

Also it's just one video. Maybe the dogs just got done exercising and are tired? Maybe he just put fear into them when walking down a road with cars? 

Watch this video below. Dogs seem much happier eh? Pretty sure those are the same dogs. What do you guys have to say about this video? 

http://youtu.be/tXW5bZ3ulZw

At the end of the day I'd rather have a dog that is afraid to bolt from me rather than a dog that if I dropped the leash I am afraid it will bolt.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Probably more to do with the genetics and breeding then the training. Have several dogs around here that look similar in their demeanor all the time. Very little to do with the owners and more to do with what they are.


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## simba405

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Probably more to do with the genetics and breeding then the training. Have several dogs around here that look similar in their demeanor all the time. Very little to do with the owners and more to do with what they are.


Agreed. Could very well be their temperament. Would love to see him play fetch or do some type of formal obedience to see the drives of those dogs.


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## sparra

Yeah.....I don't know about his breeding practices. I am just commenting on the video.
The one simba405 put up the dogs look much more upbeat and aren't even wearing collars.....different environment. All those people he met along the way got a really positive picture of the GSD.....that is not a bad thing......better than a dog jumping, lunging, barking and acting out which how many people see this breed.
I don't have time to Google the crap out of this guy......I could probably find many people bagging him and just as many defending him.......it is the internet afterall  ....his dogs are nice.......


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## CharlieB.Barkin

Msmaria said:


> And to think its taken me 8 1/2 months to get that far with one dog.
> Walking my pack in public - YouTube


I still don't know how to train towards this.


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## selzer

simba405 said:


> Right. So basically you can't. Say whatever you want but he gets results that you cannot.
> 
> Also it's just one video. Maybe the dogs just got done exercising and are tired? Maybe he just put fear into them when walking down a road with cars?
> 
> Watch this video below. Dogs seem much happier eh? Pretty sure those are the same dogs. What do you guys have to say about this video?
> 
> Pack of dogs totally under control. - YouTube
> 
> At the end of the day I'd rather have a dog that is afraid to bolt from me rather than a dog that if I dropped the leash I am afraid it will bolt.


Actually, I can. I can walk some of my girls off-lead in a busy urban area. I can jump over them too. I used to do that with Arwen, probably got it out of the Monks of New Skete. I did that when I was having the dog evaluated for which class I should put her in, and the instructor gave me the weirdest look, and said, "why would you ever need to do that?" Put me in my place. 

So I stopped jumping over my dogs. LOL! Anyone can do that. All you need is a good down stay. A few weeks ago, I was out with one of them at the Natural History Museum in Cleveland, and, I had my nieces there. And I was walking the dog around, and I admit it, I was showing off a little for the benefit of the people gawking at us, so I told her to down, and then I jumped over her -- never did that before with her. No problem, she stayed. They will if the down is trained. 

With my luck, I should have had the dog move just the wrong way, kicked her in the head, and fell sprawling -- that's what happened the last time I tried showing off with roller skates, nearly broke my ankle. But the dog stayed, and I didn't fall, but I still pretty much made an ass out of myself because it is something anyone can train, and really, what does it do for anybody?

I wasn't all that impressed with the second video either. The dogs remind me of a litter of my puppies when I try to walk across their area, and they are busy attaching themselves to my pants-legs. It has to be uncomfortable to have dogs walking swarming your legs, in between them. If you know your dog, you can stop them from going after wildlife or other dogs -- or if you can't you leave that one in the kennel and take video of the dogs that don't have that particular issue. But a down-stay, and a leave it, will keep a dog from going after other dogs, at least you will know whether or not that works, and choose only the dogs that don't have the problem for this sort of marketing.


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## simba405

selzer said:


> Actually, I can. I can walk some of my girls off-lead in a busy urban area. I can jump over them too. I used to do that with Arwen, probably got it out of the Monks of New Skete. I did that when I was having the dog evaluated for which class I should put her in, and the instructor gave me the weirdest look, and said, "why would you ever need to do that?" Put me in my place.
> 
> So I stopped jumping over my dogs. LOL! Anyone can do that. All you need is a good down stay. A few weeks ago, I was out with one of them at the Natural History Museum in Cleveland, and, I had my nieces there. And I was walking the dog around, and I admit it, I was showing off a little for the benefit of the people gawking at us, so I told her to down, and then I jumped over her -- never did that before with her. No problem, she stayed. They will if the down is trained.
> 
> With my luck, I should have had the dog move just the wrong way, kicked her in the head, and fell sprawling -- that's what happened the last time I tried showing off with roller skates, nearly broke my ankle. But the dog stayed, and I didn't fall, but I still pretty much made an ass out of myself because it is something anyone can train, and really, what does it do for anybody?
> 
> I wasn't all that impressed with the second video either. The dogs remind me of a litter of my puppies when I try to walk across their area, and they are busy attaching themselves to my pants-legs. It has to be uncomfortable to have dogs walking swarming your legs, in between them. If you know your dog, you can stop them from going after wildlife or other dogs -- or if you can't you leave that one in the kennel and take video of the dogs that don't have that particular issue. But a down-stay, and a leave it, will keep a dog from going after other dogs, at least you will know whether or not that works, and choose only the dogs that don't have the problem for this sort of marketing.


What the heck are you babbling about?


----------



## selzer

simba405 said:


> Some of those dogs seem too scared to even look up. Yikes!
> 
> With that said how many of you putting this guy down can walk your dog without leash down a busy street and then cross the road? His methods are harsh but at least those dogs won't be bolting after any squirrels!
> 
> You can see both the positive and negative effects of an Ecollar in the video.





simba405 said:


> What the heck are you babbling about?



Your quotes and the second video. 

So if I do not agree with you, I'm babbling. How interesting.

I can walk my dogs down busy streets, and cross streets without a leash, and without them bolting after squirrels, big whup!


----------



## simba405

Pretty sure the discussion was about Ecollars and how miserable those dogs are and how they have gotten their souls sucked out of them by this horrible guy. 

I'm glad you can jump over your dog though. That's impressive


----------



## onyx'girl

Lilie said:


> It made me sad to watch it. I couldn't watch the entire thing. Not a goal I'd strive for. Seemed like the handler was only seeking glory and the dogs were paying the price.


Several months later, this still seems to be the agenda of the handler. I hope the sheeples fall away and the support wanes...dogs deserve better.


----------



## sparra

selzer said:


> I can walk my dogs down busy streets, and cross streets without a leash, and without them bolting after squirrels, big whup!


I just about bet that 100% of the people he came across in those videos can't.......so to them it is a big whup....


----------



## sparra

onyx'girl said:


> Several months later, this still seems to be the agenda of the handler. I hope the sheeples fall away and the support wanes...dogs deserve better.


Is he abusing the dogs??


----------



## selzer

simba405 said:


> Pretty sure the discussion was about Ecollars and how miserable those dogs are and how they have gotten their souls sucked out of them by this horrible guy.
> 
> I'm glad you can jump over your dog though. That's impressive


The thing is it is not. It was not about E-collars, it was about using aversive methods to have dogs glue themselves to you, and it is not impressive to jump over your dog -- that is just the point. His videos look impressive to someone who has never done it, but it isn't all that impressive at all. 

Put your dog in a down. Tell it STAY! Run up and hop over it. Praise the dog. Pat yourself on the back. Easy-peasy. If your dog trusts you not to hurt it, or if your dog is scared to death not to break its stay, you won't have any problem with the trick.


----------



## lalachka

sparra said:


> Is he abusing the dogs??



I always compliment if I like something, I won't down someone out of jealousy. But when I see videos like these I just can't help myself. It's not about whether he's abusing his dogs or whether it's impressive. 

It's all about his ego and that makes me not like anything he has to show. I don't know him, but the fact that he feels the need to walk the streets with a bunch of dogs off leash tells me all I need to know. He wants people to be amazed at how unique and gifted or whatever he is. It seems like he'd go to any length to achieve his goal. 


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----------



## simba405

selzer said:


> The thing is it is not. It was not about E-collars, it was about using aversive methods to have dogs glue themselves to you, and it is not impressive to jump over your dog -- that is just the point. His videos look impressive to someone who has never done it, but it isn't all that impressive at all.
> 
> Put your dog in a down. Tell it STAY! Run up and hop over it. Praise the dog. Pat yourself on the back. Easy-peasy. If your dog trusts you not to hurt it, or if your dog is scared to death not to break its stay, you won't have any problem with the trick.


I think you're lying. Prove it. Post a video of you jumping over your dog


----------



## onyx'girl

lalachka said:


> I always compliment if I like something, I won't down someone out of jealousy. But when I see videos like these I just can't help myself. It's not about whether he's abusing his dogs or whether it's impressive.
> 
> It's all about his ego and that makes me not like anything he has to show. I don't know him, but the fact that he feels the need to walk the streets with a bunch of dogs off leash tells me all I need to know. He wants people to be amazed at how unique and gifted or whatever he is. It seems like he'd go to any length to achieve his goal.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


there is way more to this guy's 'program' than walking 5 dogs. I hope for the sake of the dogs, there will be less interest in him. fb and youtube can be dangerous, too much popularity will eventually expose. But blinders will still be on


----------



## CharlieB.Barkin

lalachka said:


> I always compliment if I like something, I won't down someone out of jealousy. But when I see videos like these I just can't help myself. It's not about whether he's abusing his dogs or whether it's impressive.
> 
> It's all about his ego and that makes me not like anything he has to show. I don't know him, but the fact that he feels the need to walk the streets with a bunch of dogs off leash tells me all I need to know. He wants people to be amazed at how unique and gifted or whatever he is. It seems like he'd go to any length to achieve his goal.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think that's quite an assumption.


----------



## lalachka

onyx'girl said:


> there is way more to this guy's 'program' than walking 5 dogs. I hope for the sake of the dogs, there will be less interest in him. fb and youtube can be dangerous, too much popularity will eventually expose. But blinders will still be on



I don't want to go research him. Can you explain what else there's to it? If you'd rather not I understand. The less highlight the better. 


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----------



## lalachka

CharlieB.Barkin said:


> I think that's quite an assumption.



It might be. Just giving my impression and my thought. I might be wrong. Lol won't be the first time or the last))))



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----------



## carmspack

they still look inhibited. They know two tricks, follow in a row behind or lay down .


----------



## selzer

simba405 said:


> I think you're lying. Prove it. Post a video of you jumping over your dog


Sorry. Can't hold a video camera (which I do not have), and take a jump-over-the-dog selfie -- _that _would be impressive. I have to take a hundred photos to get a dozen that do not have hind ends and tails as the main object. (Haven't figured out how to decrease the delay time.)


----------



## lalachka

simba405 said:


> I think you're lying. Prove it. Post a video of you jumping over your dog



What if I did it? I have WAY less dog owning experience and WAY less training experience than selzer does. And I've done it. I only did it because I couldn't think of another way to distract him. He broke the down. I figured I got a good way to distract him and did it until he didn't. 

It's not that hard. I've been stepping over my dog for over a year because there's not enough space in my room. So he's pretty much desensitized to it. 

ETA I'm not posting any videos. Don't have anything to prove. This was a hypothetical. Why should she prove anything?


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----------



## onyx'girl

There are ongoing threads about him on fb, various pages...people are watchdogging his breeding program. Not sure if you are on fb, just do a search on his kennel for links.
I just wish he'd go away! I don't do any looking, but somehow his kennel or name is constantly popping up.


----------



## CharlieB.Barkin

I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but how would all of you go about teaching your dog the "heel" command? I've only been able to find 1 video that teaches you from the beginning, without using food. 

Everything else seems to teach advanced techniques and or uses food as the main tool. I've never used food to train my dogs and I'd like to keep it that way, but I can't seem to find an effective method to teach my dog to "heel".


----------



## Pax8

simba405 said:


> I think you're lying. Prove it. Post a video of you jumping over your dog


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc14uMptVow

Now why don't you get off YOUR butt and do it? It took me a grand total of 20 seconds and six rabbit bits.


----------



## sparra

selzer said:


> Sorry. Can't hold a video camera (which I do not have), and take a jump-over-the-dog selfie -- _that _would be impressive. I have to take a hundred photos to get a dozen that do not have hind ends and tails as the main object. (Haven't figured out how to decrease the delay time.)


I'm with you......I wouldn't know how to post a video if my life depended on it


----------



## sparra

@jax8 You seriously just did that for this thread.......too funny......


----------



## mamajag

simba405 said:


> Right. So basically you can't. Say whatever you want but he gets results that you cannot.
> 
> Also it's just one video. Maybe the dogs just got done exercising and are tired? Maybe he just put fear into them when walking down a road with cars?
> 
> Watch this video below. Dogs seem much happier eh? Pretty sure those are the same dogs. What do you guys have to say about this video?
> 
> Pack of dogs totally under control. - YouTube
> 
> At the end of the day I'd rather have a dog that is afraid to bolt from me rather than a dog that if I dropped the leash I am afraid it will bolt.


My girl's 18 weeks so no, we're not there yet. She is doing well with quite a few off lead commands, though. However, I can say with certainty that if her becoming those dogs is what's necessary to attain off leash walking, it won't ever be attained because I refuse to do that to an animal. I also take exception to the thought that it's either what's in that first video or an out of control dog. That's not the case.

My GSD mix rescue was "trained" by her prior owner before I adopted her and the result was the shell of a dog. Everything she did she did out of fear. She would go places without a leash, but she stayed not because I earned her trust and respect but because she was terrified of everything else and I was the devil she knew. It took me a long time to get through all that, but I did find the happy dog underneath and brought it out just before her death. Yeah, I sacrificed a dog that heeled perfectly for a dog that needed to be leashed but had happiness and not fear. I don't regret it. 

The second video looks better. It's not what I want out of my dog, but it doesn't make me cringe like the first one. I still wouldn't let him near my dog.


----------



## simba405

Pax8 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc14uMptVow
> 
> Now why don't you get off YOUR butt and do it? It took me a grand total of 20 seconds and six rabbit bits.


Nope. Only selzer jumping over her dog will do


----------



## Pax8

simba405 said:


> Nope. Only selzer jumping over her dog will do


Lol, because apparently a video of selzer jumping over her dog is what you need to move on in your life? Good luck


----------



## simba405

Pax8 said:


> Lol, because apparently a video of selzer jumping over her dog is what you need to move on in your life? Good luck


No its what I need for a good laugh


----------



## selzer

Pax8, thanks for the illustration. I like the thumbs up at the end.


----------



## simba405

carmspack said:


> they still look inhibited. They know two tricks, follow in a row behind or lay down .


What more do you expect from pets? A bark and hold?


----------



## LoveEcho

simba405 said:


> What more do you expect from pets? A bark and hold?



Actually he does protection training with some of them, supposedly...


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----------



## Pax8

simba405 said:


> What more do you expect from pets? A bark and hold?


Even if a German Shepherd is "just a pet" that doesn't mean they don't need to learn more than heeling and laying down. Just because it is a pet doesn't mean it isn't an incredibly intelligent dog that needs mental stimulation to stay happy. I would hope that anyone who has a pet German Shepherd is doing a good deal of obedience and possibly some good tricks to work that brain.


----------



## simba405

Pax8 said:


> Even if a German Shepherd is "just a pet" that doesn't mean they don't need to learn more than heeling and laying down. Just because it is a pet doesn't mean it isn't an incredibly intelligent dog that needs mental stimulation to stay happy. I would hope that anyone who has a pet German Shepherd is doing a good deal of obedience and possibly some good tricks to work that brain.


You are taking my comment out of context. I was responding to the dog only knowing two commands from the video. 

Btw whatever his training methods they work. His dogs are well behaved. And he doesn't need to bribe the dog to do something as simple as jump over it


----------



## Pax8

simba405 said:


> You are taking my comment out of context. I was responding to the dog only knowing two commands from the video.
> 
> Btw whatever his training methods they work. His dogs are well behaved. And he doesn't need to bribe the dog to do something as simple as jump over it


Ah, didn't mean to read it out of context, it just sounded like a more general application the first time I read it rather than one specific to the video.

And if you think I need to bribe my dog all the time to do things, you are sorely mistaken. With true positive reinforcement, you use treats to teach a behavior and they are phased out when it is consistent. I only used treats because they were sitting on the counter anyways and I'd never bothered to jump over him in a stay. There was no purpose for it before this thread so I had just never done it. 

Reinforcing for holding his stay during a challenge is not what I think of as bribing, it is reinforcing his consistent behavior. If I did it again, he would not get treats because I know that behavior (jumping over him in a stay) is now consistent.

I believe even if I was using an ecollar I would still be using some tool to convince him to stay in place. Much of the argument over this video hasn't really been about the GENERAL use of this method, more about the way it was IMPLEMENTED.


----------



## selzer

Bribe dogs to jump over it? LOL! 

I rarely use a treat at all beyond puppy classes. 

People who do NILIF, bribe dogs with their food, or their toy, or their walk, or their pets. Whatever. I don't do that either. I am a bad owner. I let them on the furniture, I don't bother with treats, and I put their food down with out making them sit. I remind the kids to tell them GENTLE when offering cheese. 

Ah well. 

There seems to be only two schools: either you whip, pinch, shock and alpha roll your dog to get it to behave and know who is the boss; or you are totally permissive and give treats to the dog for every proper breath taken. 

When in fact, training lies anywhere between the extremes, some more effective and some less so. Just because a person does not use prong collars or e-collars doesn't mean they are permissive and never tell a dog NO! or EH! 

The idea that this guy is lauded because of his training without visible treats, is yet another sad thing I heard tonight. One does not need to be a human pez dispenser to have an excellent bond with a dog. 

Today I had Moofy out. He is almost 10 weeks old. We socialized at the Vet's no treats folks. Sat on the scale, no treats. Went to the park and ate a meal of chicken drums. Then over to the playground to see kids, and had a few positive encounters with no treats. He walked next to me on his loose leash with no treats. No aversives either. We were just hanging out together. And that is training.


----------



## carmspack

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_they still look inhibited. They know two tricks, follow in a row behind or lay down ._

What more do you expect from pets? A bark and hold? 

since you ask , I expect the dog to be able to move forward and away and be called back, to act as an individual not as a cog in some system. Do you notice the dogs are always in the same position? 

Canadian Kennel Club and I believe the AKC used to have Brace class in obedience . I know , because I did it . I believe Jan Armstrong of Sanhedrin also did Brace class.

here is a nice sample https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te8utfL_590 

and this with a northern breed!!! so willing , so happy , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuuDE1GwVVM 

here is nice team- brace work on a busy street https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrPIpeEs1oY

Winnifred Strickland , Expert Obedience Training for Dogs: Amazon.de: Winifred Gibson Strickland: Fremdsprachige BÃ?cher a trainer that more than deserves to be revisited did brace work , good clear instructions in her book. She also would do demos with 3 and 4 dogs doing synchronized obedience.


----------



## simba405

Yes carmspack but based on that one video you don't think he could train those dogs to do all you listed above? 

It was a video of him walking dogs for goodness sake. Not a formal trial routine.


----------



## simba405

Also do you think the average person honestly cares about those dogs in the videos you posted? They just want a dog that walks nicely and doesn't pull and bark and lunge and all the other things pet dogs do. This guy walking those dogs in public is marketing genius . To the trained eye those dogs don't look too ecstatic but to the average person they see a well behaved dog and I bet are all opening their wallets to sign up. Heck half the people in this thread were impressed. 

He is out to impress the average pet owner. He could care less about competition. 

I'm not overly impressed with his training and I'm sure he is unfairly harsh but at the end of the day he gets the job done.


----------



## carmspack

dogs don't need a dictator , the need a leader, so it goes far beyond this " I'm sure he is unfairly harsh but at the end of the day he gets the job done. "

This "It was a video of him walking dogs for goodness sake. " makes it worse .
The means do not justify the end . And what is that end ?
Do the dogs benefit , or the man's ego.

As I said even the facebook entry showing the a boy with the young pups shows pups that already look like they have the weight of the world on their shoulders.


----------



## onyx'girl

I love this quote, the dog walker should follow this advice:


----------



## carmspack

the "average" pet owner wants a dog that doesn't cause them grief, makes them proud, helps lift their own spirits and makes them happy , not a dog-zombie.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

carmspack said:


> the "average" pet owner wants a dog that doesn't cause them grief, makes them proud, helps lift their own spirits and makes them happy , not a dog-zombie.


This is spot on! I love how spirits are instantly lifted when hearing 12 little paws pound down the hall every morning only to leap into the bed and say good morning with cold noses and snuggles lol 

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----------



## selzer

carmspack said:


> the "average" pet owner wants a dog that doesn't cause them grief, makes them proud, helps lift their own spirits and makes them happy , not a dog-zombie.


I agree with this. 

Average pet owners are getting smarter too. If they saw how some of this training is done, they would pull their dog out and find someone else. 

I knock elbows with average pet owners all the time. They may not take their dogs to shows or trials, and they may not hang out on internet forums, but they do train their dogs and they do care about their dogs. And the main thing they like about their dogs is its individual personality. Most dog owners would choose the dog that pulls on the leash or barks at other dogs over the dog that cringes and looks beaten. 

Yes, some dogs look that way out of their genetics, and no one ever abused them at all. But there are dogs too whose training has been so harsh, and incomplete, that their confusion and fear of punishment leaves them almost totally shut down. No one wants a dog like that.


----------



## Baillif

Its not so much the e collar or punishment that is the issue but rather an issue at the teaching phase that creates problems like the video shows. It might be lack of clarity or consistency or a handler that punishes in a dramatic way but remains emotionally neutral otherwise.

You can train a dog to do behaviors happy and confidently with just e collar and emotion and youd not be able to tell it didnt happen without positive reinforcement. Takes tact though.


----------



## Mrs.P

Many many different entities are looking into him regarding his 'breeding' and 'training' practices . Shouldn't be long now . After you strut around enough you'll get the attention - and just like his training methods it is far from positive.


----------



## lalachka

Mrs.P said:


> Many many different entities are looking into him regarding his 'breeding' and 'training' practices . Shouldn't be long now . After you strut around enough you'll get the attention - and just like his training methods it is far from positive.



Isn't everything he's doing legal? Yeah some might not agree with it but what can be done about it?


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----------



## sparra

Which entities would they be????
I wouldn't be so chirpy about that.......similar entities were probably what got the prong/ecollar banned over here.


----------



## lalachka

sparra said:


> Which entities would they be????
> I wouldn't be so chirpy about that.......similar entities were probably what got the prong/ecollar banned over here.



[email protected] entities

Yeah, good point. Because legally nothing can't be done so it'd have to be the AR organizations. 


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----------



## JanaeUlva

I think the (second) video would be funny if it were not for the suppressed, stressed looking dogs. Somewhere over the rainbow playing while some dude is flapping his arms at some zombie-like GSD. Not my cup of tea.


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----------



## Mrs.P

lalachka said:


> Isn't everything he's doing legal?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



No. Can't give details at this time though.


----------



## Dainerra

simba405 said:


> Right. So basically you can't. Say whatever you want but he gets results that you cannot.
> 
> Also it's just one video. Maybe the dogs just got done exercising and are tired? Maybe he just put fear into them when walking down a road with cars?
> 
> Watch this video below. Dogs seem much happier eh? Pretty sure those are the same dogs. What do you guys have to say about this video?
> 
> Pack of dogs totally under control. - YouTube
> 
> At the end of the day I'd rather have a dog that is afraid to bolt from me rather than a dog that if I dropped the leash I am afraid it will bolt.


the dogs aren't afraid to "bolt" from him. They are afraid to put a toe out of line. Watch the video section where the dog has to move out of place to get around a pylon that is in her way. She practically has a panic attack and is frantic to get back into position. A well-trained normal dog would simply step around the obstacle and step back into position. 

In other videos, he allows his dogs to fight (one of them a bitch with newborn pups) just show he can show himself breaking them up.


----------



## Dainerra

simba405 said:


> Yes carmspack but based on that one video you don't think he could train those dogs to do all you listed above?
> 
> It was a video of him walking dogs for goodness sake. Not a formal trial routine.


that's part of the problem with him. he doesn't do anything with his dogs beyond what you see in a couple of these videos. 

his "protection training" consists of him shirtless using a sleeve to play tug with his dogs. He smacks his arm with a chuck-it a couple times, the dog grabs the sleeve and tugs on it a bit, that's it.

he doesn't trial. he's said numerous times that he doesn't "need the approval of others" rather ironic coming from someone who pays to get extra likes on his facebook page


----------



## lalachka

Dainerra said:


> that's part of the problem with him. he doesn't do anything with his dogs beyond what you see in a couple of these videos.
> 
> 
> 
> his "protection training" consists of him shirtless using a sleeve to play tug with his dogs. He smacks his arm with a chuck-it a couple times, the dog grabs the sleeve and tugs on it a bit, that's it.
> 
> 
> 
> he doesn't trial. he's said numerous times that he doesn't "need the approval of others" rather ironic coming from someone who pays to get extra likes on his facebook page



I'm so behind on social technology lol. How do you pay to get likes?)))))
Yeah, this guy is all about ego, he most def cares. 

It'd be more accurate to say that he doesn't trial because he knows he can't get approval from those others that know anything so he will try to impress those thT don't. 


Lol @ your description of his protection. I just pictured this))))))


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----------



## selzer

Dainerra said:


> the dogs aren't afraid to "bolt" from him. They are afraid to put a toe out of line. Watch the video section where the dog has to move out of place to get around a pylon that is in her way. She practically has a panic attack and is frantic to get back into position. A well-trained normal dog would simply step around the obstacle and step back into position.
> 
> *In other videos, he allows his dogs to fight (one of them a bitch with newborn pups) just show he can show himself breaking them up.*



Grrrrrr!!!!!!!


----------



## Dainerra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AZ2wybsBAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66uabqYfrl0

to "buy" likes you basically pay facebook money or an outside 3rd party.
Money can’t buy you love, but on Facebook it can buy you likes for anything | PandoDaily

anyone who asks him questions that he doesn't want to answer or posts a negative review gets deleted. People who ask hard questions like "can you share your dog's pedigree" or "Do you have proof of hips/elbows" usually end up being blocked


----------



## lalachka

Dainerra said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AZ2wybsBAY
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66uabqYfrl0
> 
> to "buy" likes you basically pay facebook money or an outside 3rd party.
> Money can’t buy you love, but on Facebook it can buy you likes for anything | PandoDaily
> 
> anyone who asks him questions that he doesn't want to answer or posts a negative review gets deleted. People who ask hard questions like "can you share your dog's pedigree" or "Do you have proof of hips/elbows" usually end up being blocked



I didn't watch the first one. As soon as I heard 'will they protect you if someone attacked you' and him showing off 'let's see' I couldn't go on)))))

Saw some of the second one. I'm not a pro on protection so I can't judge. 


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----------



## lalachka

lalachka said:


> Saw some of the second one. I'm not a pro on protection so I can't judge.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App




Apart from what you already pointed out, the shirtless tug session, i'd love to hear someone who knows what they're talking about explain everything wrong with it

I did notice one thing. I thought agitation is done on a harness or I know they have really wide agitation collars. I wasn't sure if that was the collar he had on. 

Is this ever done on a regular collar?



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----------



## simba405

I also would love to know what he is doing that is so illegal? 

He doesn't have a pedigree or X-rays his dogs? So? 

He buys publicity from Facebook and I'm sure other social media outlets. So?


----------



## lalachka

He's not doing anything illegal, just wrong. But yeah, free country. He's not killing anyone, so I guess it could've been worse


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----------



## JakodaCD OA

breeding dogs younger than a year of age, selling puppies out of dogs of that age, no health testing, charging big bucks for such, is not illegal, but just not right. Media hype sells apparently.


----------



## simba405

JakodaCD OA said:


> breeding dogs younger than a year of age, selling puppies out of dogs of that age, no health testing, charging big bucks for such, is not illegal, but just not right. Media hype sells apparently.


That's it? You basically described the majority of byb. Some of the posts on here make it seem like he's bbqing puppies for dinner


----------



## lalachka

simba405 said:


> That's it? You basically described the majority of byb. Some of the posts on here make it seem like he's bbqing puppies for dinner



Letting a female with pups be around dogs is cruel. Letting them fight so he can show off breaking them off is pathetic and cruel. 

Force training his dogs into zombi like stage so he can show off the control is cruel. 

None of it is illegal. But He goes beyond the usual byb. This guy is all about his ego and the dogs suffer. 




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## Tattersail

lalachka said:


> Apart from what you already pointed out, the shirtless tug session, i'd love to hear someone who knows what they're talking about explain everything wrong with it
> 
> I did notice one thing. I thought agitation is done on a harness or I know they have really wide agitation collars. I wasn't sure if that was the collar he had on.
> 
> Is this ever done on a regular collar?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't even do protection and this is what I could see that he was doing wrong in that video: He was the decoy AND the one giving the commands, want to confuse the **** out of the dog? That's a good way to do it... The dog was a bundle of nerves, and faced with a real threat would run, he kept hiding between the guy who was holding him legs... never mind his presentation for the bite, being shirtless (which really isn't a crime but is pretty stupid and just showing off), and his reply on youtube when someone criticized him about him being the decoy and giving commands was "the dog will only listen to me, so I have to be the one giving commands". If that's the case then you shouldn't be the one being the decoy.


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## Mrs.P

lalachka said:


> He's not doing anything illegal



That you know of.


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## simba405

Tattersail said:


> I don't even do protection and this is what I could see that he was doing wrong in that video: He was the decoy AND the one giving the commands, want to confuse the **** out of the dog? That's a good way to do it... The dog was a bundle of nerves, and faced with a real threat would run, he kept hiding between the guy who was holding him legs... never mind his presentation for the bite, being shirtless (which really isn't a crime but is pretty stupid and just showing off), and his reply on youtube when someone criticized him about him being the decoy and giving commands was "the dog will only listen to me, so I have to be the one giving commands". If that's the case then you shouldn't be the one being the decoy.


You are correct about one thing. You don't have any clue on protection. 

An owner can be a decoy and do bite work with their dog as long as the dog is in prey and isn't pushed into defense. Saying the dog would be confused shows you know nothing. 

With that said I don't know if he actually trains his dog for personal protection or if he's just doing bite work to look cool. I'm guessing just to look cool.


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## lalachka

Mrs.P said:


> That you know of.



Yeah that's why I asked you how he can be dealt with. You said that you can't say yet and I understand. 

Even with the stuff that I see and that's legal, it's sad. I feel bad for the dogs. 


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## Mrs.P

lalachka said:


> Yeah that's why I asked you how he can be dealt with. You said that you can't say yet and I understand.
> 
> Even with the stuff that I see and that's legal, it's sad. I feel bad for the dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Gotchya! The proper authorities have the information they need. The best thing is to sit back wait. While you're waiting you can work on educating people on what a responsible breeder should be doing. 

A completely random example  If the 'breeder' claims his vet did his dogs' hip/elbow checks in their office you can educate puppy buyers on the actual process of hip/elbow X-rays and that they actually need to be sent out lol or offa.org you can look some up. 

Another random example! 
if a "breeder" is using a sterile dog's accomplishments to offer stud services but actually uses another dog that is very unethical ! 


Defeat him via education


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## lalachka

Mrs.P said:


> Gotchya! The proper authorities have the information they need. The best thing is to sit back wait. While you're waiting you can work on educating people on what a responsible breeder should be doing.
> 
> A completely random example  If the 'breeder' claims his vet did his dogs' hip/elbow checks in their office you can educate puppy buyers on the actual process of hip/elbow X-rays and that they actually need to be sent out lol or offa.org you can look some up.
> 
> Another random example!
> if a "breeder" is using a sterile dog's accomplishments to offer stud services but actually uses another dog that is very unethical !
> 
> 
> Defeat him via education



Lolol OK)))))

Unfortunately, there will always be someone else. 




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## Tattersail

simba405 said:


> You are correct about one thing. You don't have any clue on protection.
> 
> An owner can be a decoy and do bite work with their dog as long as the dog is in prey and isn't pushed into defense. Saying the dog would be confused shows you know nothing.
> 
> With that said I don't know if he actually trains his dog for personal protection or if he's just doing bite work to look cool. I'm guessing just to look cool.


You're right I don't, I was just basing it on the things I've read on this forum, videos I've watched and the knowledge gained here, I've never seen the decoy also be the one giving commands when the dog was on him. Doesn't seem like common practice, or advised practice. Normally it seems decoys are silent or yelling/being threatening, they don't throw commands at the dog. I could of completely misunderstood everything though.


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## simba405

Tattersail said:


> You're right I don't, I was just basing it on the things I've read on this forum, videos I've watched and the knowledge gained here, I've never seen the decoy also be the one giving commands when the dog was on him. Doesn't seem like common practice, or advised practice. Normally it seems decoys are silent or yelling/being threatening, they don't throw commands at the dog. I could of completely misunderstood everything though.


Depends what the decoy is working on with the dog. If it's just bite work then let me ask you this.... 

What's the difference with an owner on a bite sleeve giving commands and you playing tug with your dog and giving commands?


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## JakodaCD OA

> That's it? You basically described the majority of byb. Some of the posts on here make it seem like he's bbqing puppies for dinner


That's enough for me or anyone with half a brain to stay away from someone doing this. But again, his 'marketing' is what draw people in.


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## simba405

I think his marketing is genius. Walking a pack of shepherds down the street impresses a lot of the public. 

With that said you only have to market this hard when your product isn't good enough to sell on its own.


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## onyx'girl

Marketing is genuis to the ones who don't know what they don't know. 
I'm sorry, but this breed deserves much better than that. The ones producing pups should be representing this breed with respect and try to keep their egos out of it. 
I sure hope the sheeples will be herded out to the graze of higher education of the breed.


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## selzer

dog fighting is illegal. If he staged a fight so he could break it up, that ought to be illegal. And letting a bitch with pups get so worked up like that ought to be considered animal cruelty, which is illegal, but hard to prove when there aren't visible and untreated wounds.


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## Dainerra

he deleted the fight videos. 

One was sire and offspring. The younger dog went outside first and he allowed the sire to basically beat the crap out of the poor dog for several minutes so that he would learn "who is alpha" and not push past the older dog to get out the door. The owner simply stood at the door and videoed the entire episode while saying "this is how dominance works in the animal world" The younger dog was screaming and kept trying to run away but couldn't since he was against the fence.

The second video he had his dominant bitch in the fenced yard along with several other dogs and bitches. He put the nursing mother in the back yard with them for a potty break. Dominant bitch immediately went after her. Conveniently, a friend happened to be arriving just then to catch his lecture on "how to break up a dog fight" 
He almost got bitten a couple times and his well-trained dogs completely ignored his commands.


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