# I'm sorry ma'am but that is not a service dog



## x0emiroxy0x

A little peeved right now. A woman just walked into walmart when I did, with a 3 lb chuihuahua mix on a leash with a pink "service dog vest" that was Obviously hand sewn. When the man at the door told her dogs weren't allowed she sAid "this is a service dog" and the man said "how is that a service dog". She said it was none of his business but after the manager came over she said "you are terrible people! I suffer from depression and ____(dogs name) is my therapy dog"

I normally hold my tongue, but as the dog urinated in the floor of the store I stepped up and said "anyone can put a vest on their dog but there is a difference between people with dogs that help them with their disabilities and dogs that make you happy. You should be ashamed for trying to pass your dog as a service dog and possibly keeping people with real service dogs from being allowed in bc your dog is not trained and misbehaves"

Yes, I know I was very rude. I feel bad for being so blatant. However, the dog was running in circles and barking aggressively at every man that passed and people were saying "that's a service dog???" in negative tones and I got really mad.

Has anyone else seen this ??

(and I thought it was against the law to ask what someones disability was... I guess she didn't know that since she didn't have a disability supported in the ada)


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## wilbanks17

I would have done the same. It's sorry people like that who make it bad for all.


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## CarrieJ

As soon as it marked and barked, it was pretty clear that it wasn't certified.

Apparently where I live the "service dogs" don't need leashes either. 

My neighbor was bit in the face by his ex-friend's mastiff (nice holes just missing his right eye) who was a "service dog" for anxiety.
Not being an expert, but I doubt that service dogs resource guard and are leash reactive.

I think you were right.
I like the people who hold their "service dogs" while utilizing a salad bar.


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## WarrantsWifey

My mom has a service dog, every time she is asked, which only ever happens at restaurants, she polity gives a VERY short answer of what he does, so to avoid the drama associated with people asking. She knows her rights, she knows they can't kick her out. She actually had the cops called on her at Taco Bell, because she wouldn't remove "the dog". 

Thor, her service dog, is a standard poodle, however, he is the MOST well behaved dog I've ever met. He I swear, doesn't even think he is a dog. *eye roll*..... LOL!!

I go places and I see people with Service Dogs, and I don't stare, I don't gawk, I don't even ask to pet the dog. Those dogs are more than working, they are medical equipment. You would ask somebody to touch their dialysis machine. I have seen kids run up to my moms service dog and just pet him and bombard him. People are crazy man, even the ones that try to pass off peeing chihuahuas in walmart.... INSANE!


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## wyominggrandma

the vests are easy to get, there is a place online that you can fill out the form, even say your dog is trained and has been looked at by a vet, check the boxes and "presto" your dog can get a vest and is a service dog. There is a mom and her daughter that got a rescue dog, did this exact thing and proceeded to take this dog into the grocery store, restuarants and every place dogs are not normally allowed. The daughter did not need this dog, but her "disability" was she did not make friends well and this dog made it easy to get friends. When asked to leave with the dog, she would threaten to sue with the disability act and service dogs. the vest was for real, but the group giving the vests was a joke, no dog should be a service dog without the proper training and this group was able to "register" service dogs once the online form was filled out.
On a lighter note,since this town is small, everyone knows I am a vet tech, groomer and train and show dogs. So I was in the grocery store and a lady who has a Maltese came up to me and said" how do I make my maltese a service dog". I told her that the dog needs lots of training(she failed obedience class with her) needs to pass a fairly stringent amount of testing to be classified as a service dog. I asked her what type of service dog she wanted and this is what she told me. Please sit down and don't have anything in your mouth while reading this:. Totally serious she said" I have asthma and was told by a vet in another town that Maltese were bred to be good for asthma sufferers because they had a HOLE in the top of their skulls and when you are having an asthma attack you squeeze the dogs chest and a puff of special substance comes out the hole and you breathe it in and then your attack goes away.
I about peed my pants when she told me this, but I calmly stated that this would not be possible as a hole in the dogs skull into the brain would kill it. I explained it was not possible at all, that the only thing that a maltese had going for it for asthma was if you happened to be allergic to the dander or hair of dogs since Maltese don't shed. I did tell her, if she did not believe me, to call the vet where I worked, which she did and sadly found out that Maltese do not have holes in their head to poof out powder to help asthma attacks.


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## idahospud49

Ridiculous. Of course I don't like chihuahua in the first place!!


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## selzer

If I were going to be a turd and put my pet off as a service dog, I would say that he is a siezure alert dog. Then the dog could be large or small, and would not have to perform any major feats to show that he was a trained service dog.

Of course if I did that, I would most certainly HAVE a siezure, right there in the middle of WalMart, and my untrained dog would flip out and run out the door and get creamed by a motorist, and it would be entirely my fault for being an idiot. 

The way I look at it is that I am very grateful that I do not rate the need of a service dog. Kind of like how I do not begrudge people of handi-capped spots, just clad that I do not rate the little plaque yet.


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## CarrieJ

*snicker* that wouldn't work for me...Alice would have seizure and I'd be the service person. 
That would be a slighty askewed version of how things are supposed to be.

Also Alice Kramden hates Wal-Mart. I think it's the non English speaking people who demand to see your receipt on the way out. (Milpitas CA)


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## Lin

You can purchase the vests and patches anywhere. There is no restriction on them, though it is against the law to take your pet into stores as a service dog when it isn't. 

There is also no registry, certification, etc for service dogs. There are specific requirements a dog needs to meet to be considered a service dog, but it is up to the individual trainer (which can include owner trainers) to decide when the dog meets them. 

And service dogs come in all sizes. There are medical alert dogs for diabetes and seizures, hearing alert dogs, etc. Not just big breeds can be service dogs. 

Correct, you cannot ask someone what their disability is. You CAN ask them what their service dog DOES. Such as what tasks does the dog perform to assist you with your disability. 

A therapy dog is a completely different type of dog from a service dog.... There ARE psychiatric service dogs though for people with disabling depression or anxiety.


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## codmaster

Lin said:


> You can purchase the vests and patches anywhere. There is no restriction on them, though it is *against the law to take your pet into stores as a service dog when it isn't. *
> 
> There is also no registry, certification, etc for service dogs. There are specific requirements a dog needs to meet to be considered a service dog, but it is up to the individual trainer (which can include owner trainers) to decide when the dog meets them.
> 
> And service dogs come in all sizes. There are medical alert dogs for diabetes and seizures, hearing alert dogs, etc. Not just big breeds can be service dogs.
> 
> Correct, you cannot ask someone what their disability is. You CAN ask them what their service dog DOES. Such as what tasks does the dog perform to assist you with your disability.
> 
> A therapy dog is a completely different type of dog from a service dog.... There ARE psychiatric service dogs though for people with disabling depression or anxiety.


 
How can anyone be stopped from faking it if no one is allowed to ask about the service dog? Or did I miss something about the law?

And my understanding (feeble as it may be) is that there are no state or federal tests or certification for a "service dog". Is that right? 

So what does a person who wants a "service dog" need to do?

I admit that I am totally mystified by the legal aspects of a "service dog".

Some of the things that they can do are totally amazing and have to be a great great thing to the unfortunate folks who need them - but it would seem that we need some way of certifying these dogs so they can be accepted by everyone (and have a means to stop the fakers!). I have no idea how this could be acomplished but it certainly needs to be done.


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## lanaw13

wyominggrandma said:


> . I asked her what type of service dog she wanted and this is what she told me. Please sit down and don't have anything in your mouth while reading this:. Totally serious she said" I have asthma and was told by a vet in another town that Maltese were bred to be good for asthma sufferers because they had a HOLE in the top of their skulls and when you are having an asthma attack you squeeze the dogs chest and a puff of special substance comes out the hole and you breathe it in and then your attack goes away.


OMG That is all. OMG


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## GSDolch

> anyone can put a vest on their dog but there is a difference between people with dogs that help them with their disabilities and dogs that make you happy.


Aside from the part I quoted, I agree that people should not be passing off dogs as service dogs that are not service dogs.

HOWEVER, the part I quoted, I think is something that you need to watch yourself with as, people with mental illnesses, such as depression or panic attacks, etc etc, if sever enough CAN have service dogs and its not because "it makes them happy"


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## Lin

codmaster said:


> Lin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Correct, you cannot ask someone what their disability is. *You CAN ask them what their service dog DOES. Such as what tasks does the dog perform to assist you with your disability. *
> 
> 
> 
> How can anyone be stopped from faking it if no one is allowed to ask about the service dog? Or did I miss something about the law?
> 
> And my understanding (feeble as it may be) is that there are no state or federal tests or certification for a "service dog". Is that right?
> 
> So what does a person who wants a "service dog" need to do?
> 
> I admit that I am totally mystified by the legal aspects of a "service dog".
> 
> Some of the things that they can do are totally amazing and have to be a great great thing to the unfortunate folks who need them - but it would seem that we need some way of certifying these dogs so they can be accepted by everyone (and have a means to stop the fakers!). I have no idea how this could be acomplished but it certainly needs to be done.
Click to expand...

I didn't say you can't ask about the dog. In fact I said you CAN ask them what the service dog does. You just cannot ask the person what their disability is. Thats requesting personal medical information. But asking what kind of service dog the dog is and what tasks the dog performs is perfectly fine. 

Correct, there is NO state or federal service dog testing or certification. If a dog carries certification, it only means that the dog passed requirements of whoever issued the certification such as the individual training organization. 

A person who wants a service dog first needs to consider if a service dog would be helpful for their specific disability. Could the added work of a service dog outweight the benefits? Do they currently have assistance or would the service dog give them freedom and independence? Do they meet the requirements of the ADA for a service dog, to be not just medically but legally disabled? Then, start researching about service dogs. Contact service dog organizations. Sit down and decide which route is best to go through. Do they have a breed request? Do they currently have any other pets in the home? Can they pay for the service dog or do their own fundraising? Are they willing to spend years on a waiting list for a dog at no cost? Would they have the resources and support necessary available to go the route of an owner trained dog? 

This comes up in nearly every service dog related thread, but there is currently no way to organize any type of government run service dog registry/testing. This would be incredibly expensive to set up, and if so who pays? If the disabled with the service dogs pay, then it takes away the option of having a service dog for those who cannot afford it. If taxes pay for it, then we need to get approval to set up such an organization. How many testing centers would there be? Again does it fall on taxpayers or the person with the disability to pay to get to a testing center? How often would testing be performed? The current laws are set up the way they are to give the maximum rights to the person with a disability. The only way to cut out fakers, is to diminish the rights of those with a disability. Its sort of like the saying "its better to let 10 guilty men go free, than punish one innocent"


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## ChancetheGSD

> There ARE psychiatric service dogs though for people with disabling depression or anxiety.


These aren't considered actual service dogs though. I know because I looked into it with Chance. Not because I want to take my dog everywhere but I have true anxiety, I was severe agoraphobic for over 6 years (Though have had problems for over 8) and had to quit school because of it. I had no friends, never left the house and the idea of walking 20ft across the yard to my mailbox put me into a panic. It was extremely hard for me to "deal" in the real world (Keeping in mind, this started at around 11 years old, now as an adult my social skills are very little because I missed out on gaining them as a child) but having a dog with me DID make me feel better. Actually the first time I went out into public and really faced my problem head on was when I was 16 and adopted Chance. After that for a couple years I could really only suck it up enough to make it into the pet store. (And I was ONLY comfortable at Petco) Even that took a LOT of preparing myself before leaving the house. I'd sit in my living room bawling my eyes out because I knew that I'd have to make my way across town and go into Petco and that the food was in the back of the store. Even with my mom there to go in with me didn't make me feel any better. For ME the idea of going into a store scared me as if someone grabbed me from behind and held a gun to my head. It stressed me HORRIBLY. I know it SOUNDS stupid and I can't tell you how many people told me I should just "get over it" but it's NOT that simple. Until you've had anxiety, more so severe agoraphobia, you have NO room to judge someone who does because it's a very hard condition to live with. It lead to depression, cutting and even a suicide attempt. Once I got Chance, he was the ONLY thing that -barely- got me out of the house. With him, I managed to panic less going to the store, I had to learn to "deal" with going to places like the vet, he helped me bring out my confidence and talk to people and obviously being a working breed he needed to be exercised and socialized so I HAD to force myself to get out with him and talk to people. He mostly played in the backyard with his toys but once a week I'd try to push myself to go a house further down the street. I think by the time we moved like 9 months later I could walk about 20 or so houses down the road and back with him. He made me feel better, he brought out my confidence, he was what I needed to get better. Slowly I was able to go out in public a little at a time. I didn't get my license until I was 18 and at 19.5 I still have anxiety about driving out of our little town or on the highway and I take him -everywhere-. Even if he can't go into the store, he makes me feel more confident driving by myself so he'll go just for the ride and sit in the car. There are also places I still refuse to go into alone. If I need to go to the doctor or dentist and my mom wont go with me, I will NOT go. When I had to go take a drug test for work, my mom had to go with me or I would have simply refused the job even though I am clean and would have passed. Now, if I had my dog I would go alone. But I'd still rather be in pain and know that I could have cancer and ignore it if it means not having to go out alone. As for working? The only places I've ever managed to get hired and stick with for more than 2 days were kennels and grooming salons. Why? Because the ANIMALS make me feel safe. Even though they aren't mine, I feel like with them, I'm ok regardless of who is around.

Despite how bad my anxiety was (And really, often still is) and the fact my dog was the only thing that got me out and made me feel better, he would STILL never be considered a service dog. He could be a THERAPY dog but he wouldn't be allowed into public places (besides visiting rest homes and things) unless they already allowed animals. I think it's WRONG personally but fact is, people don't see anxiety as a reason for taking your dog into a shop. And then you have the argument of how bad does it have to be to get your pet certified? Do you have to be as bad as me and be a prisoner of your own home? What if you only have an attack a couple times a month? Maybe you only feel anxiety towards 1-2 stores? What exactly makes it so bad that you can't function without your dog. Whereas if you've got a seizure dog, while there is no telling when an attack comes on, you've got to have that dog regardless for your LIFE.

So anyone who says their dog is a service dog for anxiety/depression is full of crap.


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## Lin

ChancetheGSD said:


> These aren't considered actual service dogs though.
> 
> ...
> 
> So anyone who says their dog is a service dog for anxiety/depression is full of crap.


Actually, they are. There are psychiatric service dogs, emotional support animals, and therapy dogs. Each is a completely different classification. PSDs are full service dogs with full service dogs rights. They are held to the same standards for obedience, public access, and service tasks with the tasks tailored to psychiatric disabilities. Emotional support animals would be a pet that are only expected to act as any other well behaved pet, but has rights when it comes to housing that otherwise doesn't allow pets or airplane flights when the animal is used as a part of a written treatment plan. 

There are psychiatric service dogs for various disabilities including depression and anxiety, very often with PTSD. 

Psychiatric Service Dog Society
Psychiatric service dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Psychiatric Service Dogs... | Service Dog Central
http://www.iaadp.org/psd_tasks.html


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## ChancetheGSD

I was told by everyone I talked to that my medical condition (And yes, I had doctors to back it up) was NOT an excuse for needing to take my dog out with me.


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## Lin

ChancetheGSD said:


> And then you have the argument of how bad does it have to be to get your pet certified? Do you have to be as bad as me and be a prisoner of your own home? What if you only have an attack a couple times a month? Maybe you only feel anxiety towards 1-2 stores? What exactly makes it so bad that you can't function without your dog. Whereas if you've got a seizure dog, while there is no telling when an attack comes on, you've got to have that dog regardless for your LIFE.


I forgot to address this in the other post. But for the question of "how bad" its answered by the ADA. 

Section 902 Definition of the Term Disability



> (b) Statutory Definition -- With respect to an individual, the term "disability" means (A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of such individual;
> (B) a record of such an impairment; or
> (C) being regarded as having such an impairment.
> 42 U.S.C. § 12102(2); see also 29 C.F.R. § 1630.2(g). A person must meet the requirements of at least one of these three criteria to be an individual with a disability under the Act.
> The first part of the definition covers persons who actually have physical or mental impairments that substantially limit one or more major life activities. The focus under the first part is on the individual, to determine if (s)he has a substantially limiting impairment. To fall under the first part of the definition, a person must establish three elements:
> (1) that (s)he has a physical or mental impairment
> (2) that substantially limits
> (3) one or more major life activities.


It goes into a lot of detail, so I'm not going to copy and paste it all here. But anyone interested in a service dog should read it in its entirety to determine if it applies to them or not. Thats what I meant in my earlier post when I mention determining if they meet the ADA requirements for legally, and not just medically, disabled.


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## Lin

ChancetheGSD said:


> I was told by everyone I talked to that my medical condition (And yes, I had doctors to back it up) was NOT an excuse for needing to take my dog out with me.


When its phrased that way, its correct. The condition would not be an excuse for taking your dog with you. However you may qualify as being disabled according to the ADA from what your earlier post stated. 

For a dog to be a service dog however, its not just taking the dog out with you. They need extensive obedience and public access training which takes approximately 2 years to finish. If the dog meets all of those requirements, then the next step is service tasks which specifically mitigate your disability. Just accompanying you does not qualify as a service task. A service task must be a specific task that can be completed on demand that mitigates your disability. If you look at my earlier links there is one to a page on PSD tasks. A service dog must be able to complete 3 specific service tasks upon request.


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## Syaoransbear

wyominggrandma said:


> Totally serious she said" I have asthma and was told by a vet in another town that Maltese were bred to be good for asthma sufferers because they had a HOLE in the top of their skulls and when you are having an asthma attack you squeeze the dogs chest and a puff of special substance comes out the hole and you breathe it in and then your attack goes away.




How.... how does this kind of stupid survive in the world!?


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## selzer

So do I get a Maltese for my Asthma, or do I take my GSD for my PTSD? Hmmmm. Squeeze the chest and the majic juice comes out of the hole in the skull. Uhm, my Asthma Doctor needs to speak to this vet. He keeps asking my how many dogs I have and then shakes his head. 

Whatever. 

As for the PTSD, well, somehow I have made it this far without bringing my dog into the supermarket, I think I will tough it out. I guess I can see it for victims of violent crimes and for agorraphobics that do not feel safe going out.


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## LARHAGE

I work in a University Health Center and the Psychiatrist on staff is treating a patient here with severe, emotionally crippling depression, he actally wrote a RX for a small dog to keep him company and to provide companionship, the guy came in next appt. with a tiny Chihuahua, and I have to admit, he looked and acted 1000% percent better, he actually was outgoing and talking to people about the puppy, he carries a laminated card expressing the critical need the dog provides to the patient.


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## DunRingill

How was the definition of "service animal" changed July 23, 2010? | Service Dog Central

On July 23, 2010, Attorney General Eric Holder signed final regulations revising the Department’s ADA regulations, including a revised definition of “service animal.” This final rule was published in the Federal Register September 15, 2010, and the effective date is six months after that publication.
Effective March 15, 2011, “Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not service animals for the purposes of this definition. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the handler´s disability. Examples of work or tasks include, but are not limited to, assisting individuals who are blind or have low vision with navigation and other tasks, alerting individuals who are deaf or hard of hearing to the presence of people or sounds, providing non-violent protection or rescue work, pulling a wheelchair, assisting an individual during a seizure, alerting individuals to the presence of allergens, retrieving items such as medicine or the telephone, providing physical support and assistance with balance and stability to individuals with mobility disabilities, and helping persons with psychiatric and neurological disabilities by preventing or interrupting impulsive or destructive behaviors. The crime deterrent effects of an animal´s presence and the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition.”
Key changes include the following:
1. Only dogs will be recognized as service animals.
2. Service animals are required to be leashed or harnessed except when performing work or tasks where such tethering would interfere with the dog's ability to perform.
3. Service animals are exempt from breed bans as well as size and weight limitations.
4. Though not considered service animals, businesses are generally required to accommodate the use of miniature horses under specific conditions.
Until the effective date, existing service animals of all species will continue to be covered under the ADA regulations.
*Existing policies that were clarified or formalized include the following:
1. Dogs whose sole function is “the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship” are not considered service dogs under the ADA.
2. The use of service dogs for psychiatric and neurological disabilities is explicitly protected under the ADA.*
3. “The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”


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## codmaster

Thanks for the update! Most interesting but still kind of fuzzy which will probably lead to difficulties I suspect.

Like who can determine if a dog "is trained to ..." - the individual who has the dog?


I also liked this wording "non-violent protection " - wonder what kind of dog can do this?

Protection from what?


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## Lin

nonviolent protection refers to things such as laying on top of the individual during a seizure, preventing from walking out into traffic etc. Not to be confused with protection work that is discussed here with the gsd.


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## DunRingill

codmaster said:


> Thanks for the update! Most interesting but still kind of fuzzy which will probably lead to difficulties I suspect.
> 
> Like who can determine if a dog "is trained to ..." - the individual who has the dog?
> 
> 
> I also liked this wording "non-violent protection " - wonder what kind of dog can do this?
> 
> Protection from what?


Dunno! I wondered the same thing, who determines if a dog is trained to do something? Or is it up to the individual? Heck I can say Mike and Bunny are hearing assistance dogs, since they lets me know when the tea kettle whistles or when the kitchen timer goes off.....I don't always hear those things anymore. ooops wait Mike has schutzhund training, does that mean he can't be a service dog?


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## GSD_Xander

Good article RE: new SD laws that took effect:

ADA Service Dog Changes Effective on Ides of March | Dog Star Daily


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## gracieGSD

CarrieJ said:


> *snicker* that wouldn't work for me...Alice would have seizure and I'd be the service person.
> That would be a slighty askewed version of how things are supposed to be.
> 
> Also Alice Kramden hates Wal-Mart. I think it's the non English speaking people who demand to see your receipt on the way out. (Milpitas CA)


Oh No no no...bad enough when english is their first language, :wild:


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## doggiedad

are you sure it isn't you who hates the non English
speaking people who ask for your receipt on the way out???



CarrieJ said:


> *snicker* that wouldn't work for me...Alice would have seizure and I'd be the service person.
> That would be a slighty askewed version of how things are supposed to be.
> 
> Also Alice Kramden hates Wal-Mart. I think it's the non English speaking people who demand to see your receipt on the way out. (Milpitas CA)


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## Lin

DunRingill said:


> Dunno! I wondered the same thing, who determines if a dog is trained to do something? Or is it up to the individual? Heck I can say Mike and Bunny are hearing assistance dogs, since they lets me know when the tea kettle whistles or when the kitchen timer goes off.....I don't always hear those things anymore. ooops wait Mike has schutzhund training, does that mean he can't be a service dog?


As I said earlier... The ADA very clearly defines what is considered a legal disability, and you must have a legal disability to have a service dog. A dog who opens doors is not a service dog if the handler does not have a disability that keeps them from being able to open doors normally. A dog that alerts you to sound is only a hearing alert dog when paired with a legally disabled hearing impaired individual. 

As for who decides when a dog is a service dog, thats whoever does the training. Which includes owner training. However the law is ALSO very clear on what training must be accomplished in obedience, public access, and service tasks to qualify as a service dog. If your dog does not fit these very clearly and detailed outlined laws you are commiting fraud. You can end up in court where a judge will decide if your dog is a service dog (and if you are legally disabled or not) and you can be fined, jailed, as well as sued by a business you went into if your dog was not an actual service dog.

It gets VERY tiring to hear bull like "well I could say my dog is a hearing assistance dog because he alerts me to the tea kettle." Training a service dog is NOT an easy task. It takes approximately 2 years to complete, and its never really complete as anyone who has experience training an animal knows. Every time you go out is a training session and you have to be aware and on guard about your dogs behavior. Its also not something fun or amusing to be legally disabled. It really ******* sucks, and when JQP thinks its all fun and games and about "bringing your dog everywhere" its infuriating. Its NOT fun and games to the disabled individual who just wants to be able to grocery shop or eat dinner like everyone else.


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## webzpinner

ADA laws are HORRIBLE and do far more damage than good. I have a bad left leg, and partially deaf in one ear, and each of my children have medical conditions, and I DON'T have a sticker on my car. I park where I can. Even on cold, rainy weather when I'm using my cane, pain killers, AND muscle relaxants just to cope, I STILL am a no more special than anyone else. I don't believe everyone else should be discomforted just so I can save 2 minutes walking into a store. I HATE it when a 400lb person parks in the handicap spot. If anything, they should park furthest from the store. I don't think stores should be forced to parcel off all their front parking for handicap shoppers. 3 spots at a Walmart, maybe, but when I can't park at a Starbucks because the entire storefront is blue, that is ridiculous.

As for service dogs, I can't count the number of times I've seen someone in an electric scooter-cart at the store with a chihuahua in the basket with a vest. Said dog is either shivering and nervous as all heck, or barking at everyone. It's all I can do to keep from screaming at them about what horrible people they are.

Sure there are a few tiny cases where ADA laws "help", but I'm one of those wackos who prefer to keep as much "big brother" out of my life as I can.


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## Dogaroo

Lin said:


> As I said earlier... The ADA very clearly defines what is considered a legal disability, and you must have a legal disability to have a service dog. A dog who opens doors is not a service dog if the handler does not have a disability that keeps them from being able to open doors normally. A dog that alerts you to sound is only a hearing alert dog when paired with a legally disabled hearing impaired individual.
> 
> As for who decides when a dog is a service dog, thats whoever does the training. Which includes owner training. However the law is ALSO very clear on what training must be accomplished in obedience, public access, and service tasks to qualify as a service dog. If your dog does not fit these very clearly and detailed outlined laws you are commiting fraud. You can end up in court where a judge will decide if your dog is a service dog (and if you are legally disabled or not) and you can be fined, jailed, as well as sued by a business you went into if your dog was not an actual service dog.
> 
> It gets VERY tiring to hear bull like "well I could say my dog is a hearing assistance dog because he alerts me to the tea kettle." Training a service dog is NOT an easy task. It takes approximately 2 years to complete, and its never really complete as anyone who has experience training an animal knows. Every time you go out is a training session and you have to be aware and on guard about your dogs behavior. Its also not something fun or amusing to be legally disabled. It really ******* sucks, and when JQP thinks its all fun and games and about "bringing your dog everywhere" its infuriating. Its NOT fun and games to the disabled individual who just wants to be able to grocery shop or eat dinner like everyone else.


I've been wanting to thank you for this post. I know it's kind of late, but.... THANK YOU!

I'm autistic, and I have dogs that provide an essential service for me, but the service they currently provide (keep me in a safe location, i.e. my bedroom, when I sleepwalk; gently nudge me back to bed) isn't one I'm likely to need when I'm out in public.  I've been training Gunner to pick stuff up for me & find things I've misplaced (Kaija already does) but until my ability to do those things on my own is severely compromised, I can't claim them as service dogs. 

What I could use, though, is a dog that keeps me from wandering out into traffic, leads me to a quiet, safe place to decompress, or alerts me to the presence of other humans when I'm in sensory overload. I've slammed right into other people while trying to escape from a store, and of course my words didn't work well enough for me to apologize. If having a dog along could reduce the social anxiety, that would be awesome. Sometimes it's just easier to go without something I need rather than deal with the anxiety, overload, panic, etc. associated with running errands & doing other things in public.

I have no idea if I've almost been run over before, but I vaguely remembered hearing car horns a few times. Fortunately I've programmed myself to not drive (or pull over if I'm already driving) when sensory overload or shutdown starts happening, or could happen. (I ALWAYS sit outside or in my car for awhile before driving off after being in loud or chaotic environments.)

Now if I could get a dog to take over answering the phone & making phone calls to doctors, businesses, etc., that would be awesome. I really,_ really_ dislike phones. My phone phobia has cost me money, unnecessary pain & discomfort, and all manner of inconvenience, not to mention the embarrassment of suddenly going mute while the other person is waiting for a response, causing them to either yell at you or simply hang up because they think you/they got disconnected. ("Yes, Mrs. Lady, there was a disconnect, but it wasn't the phone. The phones are fine.")


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## Dogaroo

Oh, I just had a thought.... I wonder if my dogs' ability to keep me from wandering off while sleepwalking would be similar enough to what I need to keep me from wandering off into traffic or other unsafe situations while in overload, that they could be cross-trained for the latter? In both cases, I'm obviously compromised/unaware, and unable to keep myself from wandering into unsafe situations & would need a dog that can assess the situation & determine when to take over & what needs to happen (or not happen) to keep me safe.


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## JakodaCD OA

ok this may be a stupid question,,but HOW would you know that the dog the OP talked about, was NOT a certified therapy dog? Because it peed on the floor and had a hand sewn vest? 

I'm not sticking up for the woman because that peeves me to no end people who are not honest about their dogs who are NOT therapy dogs.

BUT I am asking, how would you know for sure? They don't go around wearing tags do they??


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## Lin

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok this may be a stupid question,,but HOW would you know that the dog the OP talked about, was NOT a certified therapy dog? Because it peed on the floor and had a hand sewn vest?


Because a therapy dog has no public access rights regardless and should have never been in the place of business. A therapy dog ONLY has invited access to the places they work.

Someone with a true service dog should be familiar with the laws surrounding service dogs and the difference between them and therapy dogs, or emotional support animals. At least familiar with the SD laws and know that their dog is NOT the same thing as a therapy dog, and if they aren't familiar well I don't feel bad for them whatsoever for being asked to leave because they are a poor representation of a service team that is further clouding peoples perceptions of ALL service teams.


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## Dogaroo

It's my understanding that service dogs are still required to be under the control of their handlers _at all times_, (as of March 15, that includes being leashed or harnessed, unless the leash or harness interferes with the dog's ability to perform its required duties) and even a bona fide service dog can be kicked out of a business if it displays inappropriate behaviour that threatens to jeopardize the health & safety of others or interferes with the normal operation of the business. That could include aggressive growling, barking or lunging; peeing on the floor; repeatedly barking in a movie theater; and drooling on the filet mignon in the meat department of the grocery store.


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## Texas_Eva

*Wow*



wyominggrandma said:


> I asked her what type of service dog she wanted and this is what she told me. Please sit down and don't have anything in your mouth while reading this:. Totally serious she said" I have asthma and was told by a vet in another town that Maltese were bred to be good for asthma sufferers because they had a HOLE in the top of their skulls and when you are having an asthma attack you squeeze the dogs chest and a puff of special substance comes out the hole and you breathe it in and then your attack goes away.
> I about peed my pants when she told me this, but I calmly stated that this would not be possible as a hole in the dogs skull into the brain would kill it. I explained it was not possible at all, that the only thing that a maltese had going for it for asthma was if you happened to be allergic to the dander or hair of dogs since Maltese don't shed. I did tell her, if she did not believe me, to call the vet where I worked, which she did and sadly found out that Maltese do not have holes in their head to poof out powder to help asthma attacks.


I know I'm new here, but I wanted to say two things:

1. That is 100 pounds of stupid in a 5 pound bag. Is stupid covered by the ADA?
2. Jerk-offs with chihuahua's (if you call that a dog) and no real disabilities make those with legitimate needs and those who train service dogs, and the dogs who truly devote their lives and sacrifice to help their owner make it through the day look bad.

Would I love to take my dog everywhere (if shes properly trained) everywhere? Heck yes...I'm so upset people like this exist its not even funny.


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## Chicagocanine

webzpinner said:


> ADA laws are HORRIBLE and do far more damage than good. I have a bad left leg, and partially deaf in one ear, and each of my children have medical conditions, and I DON'T have a sticker on my car. I park where I can. Even on cold, rainy weather when I'm using my cane, pain killers, AND muscle relaxants just to cope, I STILL am a no more special than anyone else. I don't believe everyone else should be discomforted just so I can save 2 minutes walking into a store. I HATE it when a 400lb person parks in the handicap spot. If anything, they should park furthest from the store.


Not everyone can walk the extra distance-- or possibly they can but then they will not be able to walk later or will be in a lot of pain (not everyone has pain killers that can get rid of the pain caused by the extra distance.) Just because someone may be overweight does not mean they do not have other problems that prevent them from parking further away. My mom has very bad knee problems plus arthritis, a torn meniscus and ACL (at least one knee, haven't gotten the results from the MRI of the other knee yet) and is recovering from a broken ankle. Do you want her to park extra far away and try to make it the extra distance just because she's also overweight? Sure her weight likely contributed to some of the problems (except the ankle--she fell on the ice) but that does not change the fact that she cannot walk very far. A cane can only do so much, and it doesn't help that much when her knee decides to buckle.
If she could not use the "special" parking she probably would not be able to go to work unless she could get a ride to/from the door. She doesn't hasn't really been going shopping or many other places at this point because she can't get around well enough, the only places she had really been going regularly were to work and to physical therapy but they halted physical therapy when the MRI showed the tears in her knee.


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## arycrest

The city of Hesperia, CA passed a special ordinance granting a woman's pet rat all the privileges of seeing-eye dogs. 
"A woman in Hesperia has won the right to bring her pet rat with her shopping and into restaurants. The rat performs a very important function. " The article continues to state, ""He alerts me to spasms in my neck and shoulders. I have nerve injuries so I don't feel them until they get really bad," said Moore. "
Woman OKed to bring service rat to businesses | abc7.com


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## brembo

I take Banjo to Home Depot and Lowes with me all the time. I'm not supposed to, some NC law states that.....but I've never had an issue. I don't slap a vest on him and try and pass him off as a service animal, I just walk in and do my shopping with Banjo on a tight lead. He keeps busy sniffing the merchandise and ignores people. If an employee asked for him to be removed I'd do so without hesitation. This practice probably puts me on shaky legal ground if something were to happen, however it is one of his favorite types of outings and I'd hate to deprive him of the experience.

Most of the time at checkout there will be 3-4 employees lined up to complement him on his looks and wanting to give him a rub. I also tie two bags together and drape them over his back so he can carry some stuff to the truck. Ya outta see him prance when he gets to carry things across the parking lot.


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## fuzzybunny

brembo said:


> I take Banjo to Home Depot and Lowes with me all the time. I'm not supposed to, some NC law states that.....but I've never had an issue. I don't slap a vest on him and try and pass him off as a service animal, I just walk in and do my shopping with Banjo on a tight lead. He keeps busy sniffing the merchandise and ignores people. If an employee asked for him to be removed I'd do so without hesitation. This practice probably puts me on shaky legal ground if something were to happen, however it is one of his favorite types of outings and I'd hate to deprive him of the experience.
> 
> Most of the time at checkout there will be 3-4 employees lined up to complement him on his looks and wanting to give him a rub. I also tie two bags together and drape them over his back so he can carry some stuff to the truck. Ya outta see him prance when he gets to carry things across the parking lot.


Too cute! I'd love to take my guys to Home Depot but after the recent incident with the employee being bitten they changed their policy and are now banned here


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## PaddyD

wyominggrandma said:


> Please sit down and don't have anything in your mouth while reading this:. Totally serious she said" I have asthma and was told by a vet in another town that Maltese were bred to be good for asthma sufferers because they had a HOLE in the top of their skulls and when you are having an asthma attack you squeeze the dogs chest and a puff of special substance comes out the hole and you breathe it in and then your attack goes away.
> I about peed my pants when she told me this, but I calmly stated that this would not be possible as a hole in the dogs skull into the brain would kill it. I explained it was not possible at all, that the only thing that a maltese had going for it for asthma was if you happened to be allergic to the dander or hair of dogs since Maltese don't shed. I did tell her, if she did not believe me, to call the vet where I worked, which she did and sadly found out that Maltese do not have holes in their head to poof out powder to help asthma attacks.


I think she was pulling your leg. Either that or she has the dog because the dog is smarter than she is. Maybe it was the lady that peed on the floor and the purpose of the dog is to make you think the dog did it.
There is no limit to the ways a dog can be of service.


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## Kris10

PaddyD said:


> I think she was pulling your leg. Either that or she has the dog because the dog is smarter than she is. Maybe it was the lady that peed on the floor and the purpose of the dog is to make you think the dog did it.
> There is no limit to the ways a dog can be of service.


:spittingcoffee:


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## Lin

arycrest said:


> The city of Hesperia, CA passed a special ordinance granting a woman's pet rat all the privileges of seeing-eye dogs.
> "A woman in Hesperia has won the right to bring her pet rat with her shopping and into restaurants. The rat performs a very important function. " The article continues to state, ""He alerts me to spasms in my neck and shoulders. I have nerve injuries so I don't feel them until they get really bad," said Moore. "
> Woman OKed to bring service rat to businesses | abc7.com


.....

:headbang:


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## Dogaroo

That does it. I'm gonna bring my pet anaconda everywhere. Those yappy little purse dogs people insist on bringing into the grocery store cause me great anxiety. He will take care of them for me. Also, when I get too tense, he can give me a big hug & I won't feel tense anymore.


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## ILGHAUS

Coming late to this party but for those who are also just coming to this thread --

_From Psychiatric Service Dogs, Service Dog Central_

*Psychiatric Service Dogs*:" ...*are service dogs individually trained to perform tasks which mitigate the psychiatric disabilities of their disabled partners."*


*Therapy Dog*: "A therapy dog is an individual's pet which has been trained, tested, registered and insured to work in hospital, nursing home, school, and other institutional settings. The therapy dog and his partner visit to cheer patients, to educate the community, to counter grief and stress, and generally be good canine ambassadors within the community. The canine partner of Delta Society Pet Partners is an example of a therapy dog. Most therapy dog partners are volunteers, but some states recognize professional therapy dogs partnered with therapists and other mental health professionals. *Therapy dogs are not service dogs*."

" ... persons with therapy dogs are NOT granted the right to enter businesses with their dogs which do not permit pets. They do not get to fly in the cabins of aircraft because they are therapy dogs, nor do they get to live in "no pets" housing ..."


*Emotional Support Dog*: "Dogs used for emotional support, that are not task-trained, are called emotional support animals. *They are not service dogs."*

*----------------------------------------------------------*
From _What is the difference between a psychiatric service dog and an emotional support animal?, Service Dog Central_

"Folks may have an emotional support animal due to a mental impairment if they are also otherwise disabled or elderly or they may have an emotional support animal because of a mental illness disability. Only those actually disabled by a psychiatric impairment would qualify to use a psychiatric service dog."

"Some folks confuse Emotional Support Animals (ESAs) with Psychiatric Service Animals (PSAs). They think that "training" a dog to kiss on command or jump in their lap, or be hugged is a task qualifying the animal as a service animal. Real tasks for PSDs (psychiatric service dogs) include counterbalance/bracing for a handler dizzy from medication, waking the handler on the sound of an alarm when the handler is heavily medicated and sleeps through alarms, doing room searches or turning on lights for persons with PTSD, blocking persons in dissociative episodes from wandering into danger (i.e. traffic), leading a disoriented handler to a designated person or place, and so on."
-------------------------------------------------------------

I have permission from SDC owner to use the above material to advocate for SDs.
Bolding in the above was added by me to highlight areas.


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## WarrantsWifey

Dogaroo said:


> That does it. I'm gonna bring my pet anaconda everywhere. Those yappy little purse dogs people insist on bringing into the grocery store cause me great anxiety. He will take care of them for me. Also, when I get too tense, he can give me a big hug & I won't feel tense anymore.


:spittingcoffee::rofl:


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## KAE

I have a simple question and hopefully I'll get a simple answer...

If I'm the owner/manager of a business and someone walks in with a dog that I don't believe is a service dog, what do I do?


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## ILGHAUS

> I have a simple question and hopefully I'll get a simple answer...


This should help. ADA Business Brief: Service Animals

And a little more. http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm


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## Dainerra

fuzzybunny said:


> Too cute! I'd love to take my guys to Home Depot but after the recent incident with the employee being bitten they changed their policy and are now banned here


that's too bad. Our store still allows dogs. That will probably never change since all the contractors take their dogs to work with them. Home Depot banned dogs for a very short amount of time and everyone just started shopping at Lowes. Needless to say, they went back to the old "dogs allowed" policy pretty quickly 

Singe has been going to Home Depot since he came home. If I go in without him, people ask why


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## Dainerra

brembo said:


> I take Banjo to Home Depot and Lowes with me all the time. I'm not supposed to, some NC law states that.....but I've never had an issue. I don't slap a vest on him and try and pass him off as a service animal, I just walk in and do my shopping with Banjo on a tight lead. He keeps busy sniffing the merchandise and ignores people. If an employee asked for him to be removed I'd do so without hesitation. This practice probably puts me on shaky legal ground if something were to happen, however it is one of his favorite types of outings and I'd hate to deprive him of the experience.
> 
> Most of the time at checkout there will be 3-4 employees lined up to complement him on his looks and wanting to give him a rub. I also tie two bags together and drape them over his back so he can carry some stuff to the truck. Ya outta see him prance when he gets to carry things across the parking lot.


I know that the corporate policy for Home Depot is "no dogs" but they do leave it up to the individual store managers. So some allow dogs, others dont. I've never heard of a state law not allowing dogs except in the obvious places involving food and such.


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## codmaster

KAE said:


> I have a simple question and hopefully I'll get a simple answer...
> 
> If I'm the owner/manager of a business and someone walks in with a dog that I don't believe is a service dog, what do I do?


Sounds like the owner/business can ask but do nothing else if the person says it is a service animal.
"Businesses may ask if an animal is a service animal or ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform, but cannot require special ID cards for the animal or ask about the person's disability."

And I would hate to be the owner of say, a movie theater and have to to ask the person and dog to leave if a dog is barking - wonder how many barks would be enough to let the owner legally get away with asking them to leave? And what if a dog growls at the person in the next seat - legal grounds to ask the person to leave? Would the owner have to provide another place for the handler to see the movie?

Does the law protect the owner from legal liability if another customer is bitten by a service dog with no previous warning? I have no idea but I would be worried as heck about that if I owned a retail kind of business.

This seems to be a law with great intentions but very difficult implementation because of the very real possibility of some folks taking great advantage of it and the difficulty it poses for the affected business owners (and of course as well for the dog handlers).


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## cassadee7

This is interesting. I was just reading the rules on a local zoo regarding service animals and what employees are allowed to do, so maybe you guys would find this interesting:

*a.​*​When a person accompanied by an animal enters PDZA grounds, staff shall first
make a good faith effort to observe interaction between the person and the animal.​
*b.​*​If the employee cannot, on the basis of observation, reasonably conclude that the
person has a disability, or cannot reasonably conclude that the animal is a service
animal doing work or performing tasks for a person with disability, the employee may
make further inquiries. Such inquiries must be minimal in nature, may not be intrusive,
and shall consist of welcoming the person to PDZA and politely inquiring why the
person is accompanied by an animal. *The employee may ask what task the animal
performs related to the disability. *If these questions are sufficiently answered, i.e.
the person responds that he/she has a disability and the animal is a service animal
that has been trained for a specific task, no further inquiry shall be undertaken.​
*c​*​. The staff shall then inform the visitor of his/her name and department where
employed at PDZA. If questioned again, the disabled person can simply inform a
subsequent employee that the matter has already been discussed with the first staff
member, making further inquiry during the second contact unnecessary.​
*d.​*​Service animals usually are well trained and generally well behaved. If a service
animal is out of control, however, either presenting a direct threat (aggressive
behavior, jumping up at people in a threatening manner) for other visitors to PDZA or
is disruptive to the exhibit animals in one area of the grounds, any employee in the
area should request that the person either leave that particular area of the grounds or
PDZA itself, as appropriate to the magnitude of the disruption. If the owner refuses to
cooperate after adequate identification of the staff member making the request and
clear explanation of the issue, the employee shall call the ERT for assistance.​
*e.​*​If a qualified employee (e.g., a keeper) believes that an exhibit animal is responding
adversely or showing signs of stress simply because of the service animal’s presence,
the employee shall notify the ERT. In such instances:​
*i)​*​The ERT shall immediately report to the area and determine if the service animal
should be removed from the exhibit area.​
*ii)​*​If it is so determined, the supervisor shall inform the owner of the fact and request
that the owner leave the area and visit another part of PDZA.​
*f.​*​If called to the scene where a service animal is out of control and/or the owner
refuses a reasonable and justifiable request to remove the animal from any part of
PDZA, contact of Tacoma Police Department may result, with the intent to have TPD
follow their standard operating procedures to remove the service animal and owner to​
a safe and secure location.
 
you can read the entire policy if you're interested by looking on the Point Defiance Zoo service animal policy page.


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## Lin

Zoos are a little different from other place of businesses. Due to the nature with the animals, there are sections of zoos that can prohibit service dogs if it disrupts the animals to have a dog there. 

And places of business CAN do something. They can educate themselves, its the best protection. But then codmaster and I have gone over that in the past. Probably more than once. 

If someone is educated they know what they can or cannot ask and what the can do if they then believe the person is legitimately faking a service dog. You cannot ask for special certifications or IDs. You CAN ask what kind of service dog the dog is. What the dog does for the person. You can ask what 2 service tasks that the dog does for the handler are. If the person is unable to simply answer 2 service tasks without having to think about it, the animal is most likely NOT a service animal. If you strongly believe the animal is not a service dog, you can ask them to leave. Most likely fakers are going to leave and not call the cops etc. If someone does, having been educated on the process and being able to explain to an officer why you asked for them to leave will help protect you even if the dog is a legitimate service dog. Basically, KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. Don't just sit on your butt and complain that there's nothing you can do. Because its just not true. Knowing your rights will help protect yourself against fakers, as well as make things go more smoothly for actual SD users.


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## 4dognight

I have a mobility dog and he is an Old English Sheepdog. I have problems with extreme fatigue and mobility issues at times. My dog was a certified therapy dog first. It was something I could do to vol even when I could hardly move. My physican was the one that suggested I use him as a service dog. If I am having fatigue and mobility issues and I don't have to go out I don't I recently had a dentist appointment which has 2 flights of stairs I used my dog and the dentist and staff were amazed at how well behaved he was He did what he was suppposed to do (he had extra training to assist me) I know the dentist well and he said Will he touch the instruments?? I assured him he would not and he did not. I have to keep him clipped down because when he is hugh and fuzzy everyone wants to approach him Since he was (and still qualifies) as a therapy dog he is open to this stuff I don't mind sometimes but if I am in pain and need to move on it could take forever to get from point a to b. If I don't need him I don't take him. Many times on vacation when we have a lot of walking to do I have to use him but it is in places where a dog can go. One day I had to pick up a prescription and was having a bad day The greeter said no dogs allowed I said HE IS A MOBILITY DOG!! and just kept going. He wears a grey and black special harness and a short black lead. Most of the time I can use the cart in stores to help. One time when we were at a childrens museum (he was working as a therapy dog) the kids wanted to see him and the mom said he is a service dog you can't pet him I approached her and explained he was a therapy dog and the kids enjoyed him...does anyone else have a service/therapy dog??? and how do you handle therapy/service role? My dogs does pretty well changing but he is so friendly and yes well trained.


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## codmaster

Lin said:


> Zoos are a little different from other place of businesses. Due to the nature with the animals, there are sections of zoos that can prohibit service dogs if it disrupts the animals to have a dog there.
> 
> And places of business CAN do something. They can educate themselves, its the best protection. *But then codmaster and I have gone over that in the past. Probably more than once. *
> 
> If someone is educated they know what they can or cannot ask and what the can do if they then believe the person is legitimately faking a service dog. You cannot ask for special certifications or IDs. You CAN ask what kind of service dog the dog is. What the dog does for the person. You can ask what 2 service tasks that the dog does for the handler are. If the person is unable to simply answer 2 service tasks without having to think about it, the animal is most likely NOT a service animal. If you strongly believe the animal is not a service dog, you can ask them to leave. Most likely fakers are going to leave and not call the cops etc. If someone does, having been educated on the process and being able to explain to an officer why you asked for them to leave will help protect you even if the dog is a legitimate service dog. Basically, KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. Don't just sit on your butt and complain that there's nothing you can do. Because its just not true. Knowing your rights will help protect yourself against fakers, as well as make things go more smoothly for actual SD users.


Hi Lin,

Yes, we have gone over it before. I guess it is because we are looking at the same situation from two different perspectives. Mine is from the business owner and the public, and yours from the handicapped person. A VERY different look for sure.

Of course we agree that the business owners MUST read and understand this law, but given that, it doesn't sound like the owners have much that they can do when someone walks in with a dog and states it is a service dog. At least that is how I read it. Just knowing the law doesn't make it any easier to prevent "fakes" from taking advantage of it.

It seems to me that if we can require someone to have a license to drive (although many flout this law as well) then we should have some kind of official certification to test the dogs before they are given such freedom to come into otherwise dog restricted areas.

Just out of my own curiosity, where does the law say that the business owner can ask what 2 service tasks that the dog does? I didn't see that in the reference that you gave us. And more importantly can the owner ask to have these demonstrated? (I would guess the answer to that is no!). Otherwise it is a useless question unless the handler is really stupid, as they will simply memorize a couple of reasonable real service dog tasks.

Anyway, thanks for the good information on this whole topic. It is a very real instance where our dogs again prove themselves very valuable to people who can really use the assistance.


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## Lin

codmaster said:


> Just knowing the law doesn't make it any easier to prevent "fakes" from taking advantage of it.


Actually yes, it does. And I have been on both sides of the law in this situation. 

I was the manager of a boarding house. I had a couple contact me interested in a room. They asked if we allowed dogs. I said no, the landlord was not interested in any more pets than were already living here. They replied that they had 2 service dogs. I asked them how they had 2 service dogs, was one in active duty and another retired or in training? Because the housing rights of a service dog only applies to an active dog (because the rights apply to the disabled individual, not the dog alone.) They dodged my question and continued. Then they mentioned they are very good dogs, and are crated whenever they leave. I asked them if they had a service dog or a skilled companion dog. Mentioned service dogs accompany you everywhere, while a skilled companion dog only assists in the home and does not have the same housing rights as a service dog. They again tried to dodge my question. It eventually came out that they bought 2 fake service dog certificates online to use when they ran into housing problems with the dogs. 

It was clear from the beginning that they were lying and didn't know what they were talking about. I've also had instances where I tried to inform a landlord about the laws on service dogs, and they took me at face value and declined my offer to bring in the specific laws. That didn't make me happy, because that leaves them open to abuse and they will develop a prejudice against real service dogs if something goes very wrong.


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## ILGHAUS

Cut & Paste Quotes
Directly from the U.S. Department of Justice
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights Section 

Businesses may ask if an animal is a service animal or ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform, but cannot require special ID cards for the animal or ask about the person's disability.
...
A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the animal is out of control and the animal's owner does not take effective action to control it (for example, a dog that barks repeatedly during a movie) or (2) the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.

In these cases, the business should give the person with the disability the option to obtain goods and services without having the animal on the premises.
...
A business is not required to provide care or food for a service animal or provide a special location for it to relieve itself.

--------------------------------------------------

The above all business owners should know as they are their rights also.


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## ILGHAUS

> Just out of my own curiosity, where does the law say that the business owner can ask what 2 service tasks that the dog does? I didn't see that in the reference that you gave us. And more importantly can the owner ask to have these demonstrated? (I would guess the answer to that is no!).


 
The number of service tasks is in a grey area but "or ask what *tasks* the animal has been trained to perform" gives the weight that the Dept. of Justice wanted more then one task taught. Lin is being on the conservative side and going with the least number interpretation.

Remember these task have to do something that is needed. If someone tells you their dog wakes them up in the morning or brings in the newspaper or fetches the TV remote are these really even close to being necessary trained tasks outside of the home?


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## ILGHAUS

As always in these threads, we are not DOJ lawyers specializing in ADA.
What is offerend here is *legally* only the opinion of the poster.

For an official answer to any questions you can contact your State's Attorney General's office or call the DOJ's ADA Information Line at (800) 514-0301 (voice) or (800) 514-0383 (TTY) or visit the ADA Business Connection at ada.gov.


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## ILGHAUS

From time to time I receive a request to write a *letter* for someone stating their dog is a SD. I've been offered $100 more then once just to mail back a simple note that I approve XXX as a SD and sign it.

Not going to do it. I have offered to work with someone and give my opinion on their dog and any fees would be either a check or M.O. made out to a local charity. I usually then get a gasp and an excuss that the caller doesn't have time for that.


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## blehmannwa

I posted in another thread about some relatives that purchased a pup from a lady who claimed that her two GSDS (the pup' s parents ) were service dogs. They licked their owner if she passed out. One can only speculate what would happen to the lady without the dogs licking her back to consciousness. Is is like a Snow White thing? She won't awake without her kiss? Is one of the dogs named "Prince?" 

I really dislike people who make fake claims about service and therapy dogs. My pup begins training as a therapy dog next month. It will take approximately two years.


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## suzzyq01

I have some shady in-law relatives that know Onyx does therapy work and I take him places with me for training purposes and such (not restaurants and places where food is served but the mall/target/etc) and they just got a lab puppy and are going to "train" it to be a "service dog" for tier mom who is just crazy. That's her disability, she is just crazy and she has doctors that will back that up. I tried to explain that you must go through a lot of training. I KNOW when I take Onyx places how he is going to act/react to situations/stimuli because I have been through lots of training AND real life training situations/nursing homes/hospitals/etc. 

They think they are going to get this puppy and next year her mom will be able to take it all over the free world with her. It took me 3+ years to take him into the first nursing home/hospital and KNOW that he wouldn't react to any situation thrown at us. He's still not perfect, he doesn't like elevators (he just sits and his legs shake) and he doesn't enjoy walking near escalators, but we are working on that and it's getting better!

People like Chihuahua lady and crazy asthmas inhaler Maltese lady don't have a clue what is involved. Not to mention you could be held liable for any damage done to property/people while using your "service dog". It's just not smart, but most of these people aren't too swift, clearly!


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## EchoGSD

I don't know about what happens in other states, but Michigan has very specific definitions of what consitutes a service dog, where they are allowed, what equipment and ID their handlers are required to use and provide, and what the consequences are for non-adherence. Here is one example, regarding how to identify a service dog, and where they are allowed to be: 

*Michigan Compiled Laws Annotated Currentness. Chapter 750. Michigan Penal Code. The Michigan Penal Code. Chapter LXXII. Public Safety.
750.502c. Refusal of entry or use of public or private accommodations by persons led or accompanied by guide, hearing or service dogs
*

Sec. 502c. (1) A person who is an owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent, or employee of any place of public or private housing, accommodation, amusement, or recreation, including but not limited to any inn, hotel, motel, apartment building, trailer park, restaurant, barbershop, billiard parlor, store, public conveyance on land or water, theater, motion picture house, public or private educational institution, or elevator, who refuses to permit a person with disabilities to enter or use the place when the place is available because the person with disabilities is being led or accompanied by a guide or leader dog, hearing dog, or service dog is guilty of a misdemeanor if the guide or leader dog is wearing a harness or if the hearing dog or service dog is wearing a blaze orange leash and collar, hearing dog cape, or service dog backpack, and the person with disabilities being led or accompanied has in his or her possession a pictured identification card certifying that the dog was trained by a qualified organization or trainer. The department of labor shall maintain a list of organizations or trainers that train guide or leader dogs, hearing dogs, and service dogs.


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## ILGHAUS

> not restaurants and places where food is served but the mall/target/etc


suzzyq01, Your mall and Target allow Therapy Dogs?


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## Xeph

> but Michigan has very specific definitions of what consitutes a service dog, where they are allowed, what equipment and ID their handlers are required to use and provide,


It has been my understanding though, Echo, that under federal law, a fully trained service dog does not have to wear any specific colors, vests, or identification. The federal law in this case offers more protection to the disabled person, and thus trumps the state law.

So somebody can have a hearing dog out with them and have it on nothing more than a regular leash and collar, and nobody can say boo about it.


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## ILGHAUS

> but Michigan has very specific definitions of what consitutes a service dog,


Remember ADA is a Civil Rights Law. Someone violates your civil rights of public access and you will have to take them to court.

State Laws are Criminal Law. Someone violates your public access rights and they can be arrested and prosecuted in the criminal court system.

If you want the protection of the State you have to follow their regulations. If they say orange leash and collar then you must follow those regulations. 



> under federal law, a fully trained service dog does not have to wear any specific colors, vests, or identification. The federal law in this case offers more protection to the disabled person, and thus trumps the state law.


Federal Law may not offer more protection in this case. The state can not force you to put on special equipment on your dog but by not doing so you are legally waiving your extra priviledges.


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## codmaster

Xeph said:


> It has been my understanding though, Echo, that under federal law, a fully trained service dog does not have to wear any specific colors, vests, or identification. The federal law in this case offers more protection to the disabled person, and thus trumps the state law.
> 
> *So somebody can have a hearing dog out with them and have it on nothing more than a regular leash and collar, and nobody can say boo about it*.


And that is precisely my contenton with the entire law! What is to stop me from claiming my GSD is a service dog and bringing him everywhere with me. As I understand what i learned here - if I claim my dog is a service dog, no one can ask for any proof, true?

Or can they call the police - if so, what can the police do? Obviously can't arrest someone for faking it (I think!). So I don'r know what even the police can do - probably afraid of themselves being sued.

A tough situation! For the legitimatly handicapped with a reral service dog and for the public and the business owners trying to treat all fairly!


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## TitonsDad

ILGHAUS said:


> suzzyq01, Your mall and Target allow Therapy Dogs?


This brings back memories of an ugly thread I posted when I was new here about bringing my puppy into Target. *Shudder*


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## ILGHAUS

> A tough situation! For the legitimatly handicapped with a reral service dog and for the public and the business owners trying to treat all fairly!


And this is a problem that many involved in the SD community are trying to clarify and improve. As Lin has posted here and people like Chris, myself and others - individuals and businesses need to become better educated on the subject.

Business owners need to know the law (both Federal and of their individual state) so they know their rights and the rights of people with disabilities. They need to make sure their employees understand that SDs are allowed into a place of business and what questions they can ask.

People with disabilities need to know the law (both Federal and of their individual state) so they know their rights and the rights of business owners. They need to make sure that they present a professional look when out in the public and what questions can be asked of them.

People in the community need to know the basics of the laws so they know what the rights of PWDs with SDs are and basic behavior they themself should have around working SD teams.

The law enforcement system on the state level, county level and city/town level should know their state statutes in order to effectively handle SD issues.

States should each have SD laws (State Statutes) so that business owners that do not follow the ADA/Dept. of Justice regulations can be charged and prosecuted under the criminal law system.

States should each have SD laws (State Statutes) so that people posing as a person with a legal disability or taking an unsafe, non-trained dog not meeting the mitigating regulation into the public can be charged and prosecuted under the criminal law system.

All states should have SD State Statutes and those statutes should conform between all states and all should conform to the ADA/Dept. of Justice regulations. This would happen IF Business Owners, People with Disabilities and using SDs, and Members of the Community would become involved and work together with their State Representatives and State Senators in presenting, sponsoring, and demanding such state statutes.

And the whole thing comes back to education ... education ... education.


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## suzzyq01

ILGHAUS said:


> suzzyq01, Your mall and Target allow Therapy Dogs?


Our Target is attached to the mall. I went to guest services in the mall the first time and asked if it was ok, told them what I was doing and let them meet him. They said sure no problem and advised security of my presence. Ever since then they love seeing him, we don't go often but they know who he is. We don't go in the food court or anything, just walk the mall and go in and out of stores. 

Our mall in Florida allowed us to walk through the mall because I asked. I figured as long as I ask and tell them truthfully what I am doing the worst thing they can say is no. For the most part I have found people love the idea and are very willing to help out with the training.

Never hurts to ask!


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## ILGHAUS

TitonsDad said:


> This brings back memories of an ugly thread I posted when I was new here about bringing my puppy into Target. *Shudder*


I hope by ugly you mean something you did inadvertently and now are better informed on and not that people here were *ugly* to you. We all started our road to knowledge on the subject somewhere and I shudder  at some things that I believed in the past.


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## TitonsDad

ILGHAUS said:


> I hope by ugly you mean something you did inadvertently and now are better informed on and not that people here were *ugly* to you. We all started our road to knowledge on the subject somewhere and I shudder  at some things that I believed in the past.


It was a thread about bringing Titon into Target when he was a puppy and the misunderstanding between me and a worker and what I perceived training to mean not realizing the reason for being kicked out of Target was for there being food in the store and dogs contaminating it.


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## ILGHAUS

suzzyq01 said:


> Our Target is attached to the mall. I went to guest services in the mall the first time and asked if it was ok, told them what I was doing and let them meet him. They said sure no problem and advised security of my presence. Ever since then they love seeing him, we don't go often but they know who he is. We don't go in the food court or anything, just walk the mall and go in and out of stores. ...


Certain areas of FL are very into working with Guide Dog Prospects and Guide Dogs-In-Training since we have a large training facility in the state. FL also has in our statutes that that trainers of SDITs while being actually trained have the same public access rights of handlers of SDs. We do not have state certifed Therapy Dogs nor anything in the statutes on Therapy Dogs. It is very unusual that a Therapy Dog or Therapy Dog in training would be allowed in a non-pet situation as there is no real reason that it is needed. 

For your sake, if there ever is a problem or an individual store at the mall that you enter ever does complain or decides to prosecute you, that the Mall Corporation stands behind the decision of its staff in giving you permission to take your dog inside.


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## ILGHAUS

> and what I perceived training to mean


But you made an honest mistake and after realizing that mistake changed your training actions. And I admire you for bringing up that mistake and by doing so possibly helped someone else. I admit that when I first become involved with working dogs of being too trusting to what I was told by certain *experts* and not doing the basic research. I would love to be able to go back and change somethings. But it isn't possible so I go on and try to do better. None of us will ever be all-knowing or even close to perfection on any subject.


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## suzzyq01

ILGHAUS said:


> Certain areas of FL are very into working with Guide Dog Prospects and Guide Dogs-In-Training since we have a large training facility in the state. FL also has in our statutes that that trainers of SDITs while being actually trained have the same public access rights of handlers of SDs. We do not have state certifed Therapy Dogs nor anything in the statutes on Therapy Dogs. It is very unusual that a Therapy Dog or Therapy Dog in training would be allowed in a non-pet situation as there is no real reason that it is needed.
> 
> For your sake, if there ever is a problem or an individual store at the mall that you enter ever does complain or decides to prosecute you, that the Mall Corporation stands behind the decision of its staff in giving you permission to take your dog inside.


I am not in FL any more, I am located in MA/NH and do most of my shopping in NH. It seems as if the laws in NH are much less strict than in MA. I have posted that I took my dogs into Lowes/Home Depot without a vest only on leash before in NH and people tried in MA and could not. Not sure why. Maybe something had occurred at that store previously with dogs? Don't know. 

If I were ever asked to leave a store bc of the dog I would respect that. I would never get upset. The mall/stores are doing me a favor by allowing me to work/train my dog there and I always appreciate it.


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## Dainerra

I know that Home Depot's dog policy varies from store to store, some allow dogs and others don't. The official corporate stance is "no dogs" but in the end it is left up to the individual store.


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## ILGHAUS

Dainerra said:


> I know that Home Depot's dog policy varies from store to store, some allow dogs and others don't. The official corporate stance is "no dogs" but in the end it is left up to the individual store.


Home Depot is one store that can give permission to enter with your dog.

My concern for the poster who went to the Service Desk at the Mall (employees of the Mall Corporation itself) and not to the individual stores themselves. This empolyee gave a blanket OK to someone taking in a non-SD into the stores. Once the Service Desk calls Security and Oks a dog security does not in fact question them on the status of the dog or why it is there. The stores will not usually then question a dog coming into their individual store as that falls on security in many venues to verify that the dog was given the OK. There could be a lot of assumption on the part of many employees when seeing the dog and not questioning why it is there. And if it got down to it, how many of these employees would stand up to the Mall Corporation, the Security Organization, or to the Corporation Store Owners on behalf of the poster if there was an incidence involving the dog. None would have any legal backup. It would only take the Service Desk employee saying that they thought Therapy Dogs were allowed in the mall before a lawyer could sweep that defense right out the window. Just look at the numbers of members here at this board who confuse Therapy Dogs with Service Dogs and that gives pause to the idea that maybe the original person giving permission was also unclear. But if someone feels secure in taking their dog to a mall or like place after the okay given by a lower employee then that is their decision. I feel like I have given the poster a fair heads up on the possibilities of what could happen by law and they as an adult can consider it or not. ... So I think I have stated my thoughts on the matter and will let it drop.


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## Zisso

Nadia is not a service dog, yet when I take her in Home Depot she wears a vest that says Do Not Pet and people _assume_ she is. I do not try to pass her off as one and make it clear we are there to socialize. I explain when asked that the vest is to stop people from walking up to her uninvited, and especially to make parents to _hopefully_ keep their kids away. 

Last time we were there, a father/daughter pair were in the isle we were and the girl, about 3-4yo, was excited to see Nadia. So I had her lay down and let the child pet her. Nadia was fine with that because it was a CALM child, not dashing up to her, not hugging her, and they were good together for the few moments they met.  It was a good experience for both child and dog alike, which is my only goal in taking her to a store of any kind. I would never ever try to take her to Walmart!


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## Chicagocanine

Zisso said:


> Nadia is not a service dog, yet when I take her in Home Depot she wears a vest that says Do Not Pet and people _assume_ she is. I do not try to pass her off as one and make it clear we are there to socialize. I explain when asked that the vest is to stop people from walking up to her uninvited, and especially to make parents to _hopefully_ keep their kids away.


Maybe something like "Ask before petting" would be more appropriate in that case? Otherwise I would think most people would be more likely to either think the dog is a service dog or is not friendly at all and won't want to socialize (If it says "Do Not Pet").

Or something like one of these:

Ask Before Petting - I Am ....

or


















IN TRANING PLEASE ASK BEFORE PETTING | eBay


or










Ask! To Pet Me I'm Friendly: LDS Leather Company


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## Kaity

I can't tell you how annoyed I get that I cannot take Vida into certain places like to the mall with me. Generally, I wouldn't want to bring my dog into a place that serves food. I was at the Bay one day and saw some lady with a smaller dog just walking on a leash with her while she was shopping. So what was her excuse, this was obviously not a service dog. I wouldn't take a smaller dog if I had one in stores anyways because the possibility of it getting stepped on but what gave HER the right to bring her pooch in, and I can't bring Vida clothes shopping with me? I admit, if the law allowed this it would be absolute mayhem everywhere. A lot of the times when somebody asks me to go out, I say no because they say "sorry, no big dogs allowed in my car" What do you think she's going to do to your car? Sorry but I'd rather stay home with my dog or go to the park with her than leave her sitting at home all the time. 

Can't say I haven't thought about putting a vest on Vida and bringing her somewhere with me and saying she was just in training, if anybody asked. I can't stand when people bring small dogs in places where I would be in big trouble for it.. unfair


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## selzer

Kaity said:


> I can't tell you how annoyed I get that I cannot take Vida into certain places like to the mall with me. Generally, I wouldn't want to bring my dog into a place that serves food. I was at the Bay one day and saw some lady with a smaller dog just walking on a leash with her while she was shopping. So what was her excuse, this was obviously not a service dog. I wouldn't take a smaller dog if I had one in stores anyways because the possibility of it getting stepped on but what gave HER the right to bring her pooch in, and I can't bring Vida clothes shopping with me? I admit, if the law allowed this it would be absolute mayhem everywhere. A lot of the times when somebody asks me to go out, I say no because they say "sorry, no big dogs allowed in my car" What do you think she's going to do to your car? Sorry but I'd rather stay home with my dog or go to the park with her than leave her sitting at home all the time.
> 
> Can't say I haven't thought about putting a vest on Vida and bringing her somewhere with me and saying she was just in training, if anybody asked. I can't stand when people bring small dogs in places where I would be in big trouble for it.. unfair


The only thing you seem to _know_ concerning this, is that _your _dog is NOT a service dog. 

The small dog could have been a siezure dog, could have been a cardiac dog, could have been a diabetic alert dog -- you do not _know_ that it is not a service dog.

Do you _really _want to be able to take your dog anywhere???

Would you give up your legs for it? Would you suffer siezures for it? How about your eyes? What about a nasty heart condition or dangerous glucose level issues?

Be careful what you desire, someday you may _need_ to take your dog where dogs are generally not allowed.


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## Kaity

I'm almost 90% sure this wasn't a service dog. I've never seen a service dog run around and jump up, bark and greet one person and snarl at the other. 

I don't want to be able to take my dog everywhere, because I know it's not appropriate. I just wish there was more places that allowed dogs. Public transit, for one I think should allow pets on the train and busses in case of an emergency which they do not and I'm not sure there is an emergency pet ambulance type service around here. I don't have a car, or my license so if theres an emergency I have to basically try to get a taxi who isn't against having a dog in the back of their car. 

I wouldn't ever wish to not have my legs or be able to do the things I do every single day that would be ignorant of me to think.. "well, if I have a disability I CAN take my dog most places.." No, I'd rather leave her at home or in the care of somebody else while I'm out than that.

My point was just that it upsets me when I see people who bring small dogs into places where I cannot bring Vida in and I KNOW these dogs are not service dogs.


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## selzer

You mentioned putting a vest on your dog and saying she was in training. Sorry, but THINK. Thank whatever source of goodness you believe in that you do not need to take your dog, and quit looking and judging other people. It does not concern you. Really. 

I see someone who sells drugs driving a nicer car than me. He has money because he is breaking the law. Should I break the law to pull myself even with him? I see some joker throw their sandwich wrapping on the ground. I am carrying mine with me. Should I throw mine on the ground too? Two wrongs do not make a right. 

As for pet ambulances, good luck. I have never heard of pet ambulances. If you do not drive and do not have a vehicle, then make friends with someone who does, and do things for that person, cultivate some friendships so that if there is a problem, and you cannot get a cab, you can call your good friends and one of them will be able to help you out. It is not up to the city, town, government, to ensure that your dog can get to the vet in the case of an emergency.

Owning a large formidable breed has some disadvantages. You probably will be discriminated against at some point. And their reputation will probably cause you some consternation. You will need to train and socialize your dog, keep it under control/tethered, not allow it to snarl or bark or jump up on people, and you will STILL face problems because of the breed. Sad yes. But you should not be angry that you cannot take your dog in places where dogs are not allowed. If someone has their dog in the place and shouldn't, they are just being wrong, like the litterer or drug dealer.


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## AbbyK9

> As soon as it marked and barked, it was pretty clear that it wasn't certified.


There is NO SUCH THING as Service Dog certification in the United States. The only dogs that are "certified" are dogs that graduated from a specific program that trains Service Dogs - but many dogs are owner/handler trained and they are every bit as much Service Dogs as those from programs are.



> If I were going to be a turd and put my pet off as a service dog, I would say that he is a siezure alert dog. Then the dog could be large or small, and would not have to perform any major feats to show that he was a trained service dog.


Only one problem with that ... for a dog to qualify as a Service Dog, it has to be trained to do multiple (three is generally the lowest referenced number) of demonstrable tasks. That's tasks done on command. Seizure dogs are alert/response, not JUST alert because JUST alert would not be a demonstrable task and just one task doesn't meet the requirements of the ADA which specifies TASKS in the plural.



> I work in a University Health Center and the Psychiatrist on staff is treating a patient here with severe, emotionally crippling depression, he actally wrote a RX for a small dog to keep him company and to provide companionship, the guy came in next appt. with a tiny Chihuahua, and I have to admit, he looked and acted 1000% percent better, he actually was outgoing and talking to people about the puppy, he carries a laminated card expressing the critical need the dog provides to the patient.


That would be an Emotional Support Animal, NOT a Service Dog, though, unless the dog actually does specific demonstrable tasks for the person. The ADA doesn't consider bringing comfort or making someone feel less anxious to be tasks. 

ESAs do not have public access like Service Dogs do, but they are afforded special access for housing and airplane travel. For housing, though, the person would need to apply for an exception to policy if they live in "no pets" housing, they can't just bring the dog in.



> It's my understanding that service dogs are still required to be under the control of their handlers _at all times_, (as of March 15, that includes being leashed or harnessed, unless the leash or harness interferes with the dog's ability to perform its required duties) and even a bona fide service dog can be kicked out of a business if it displays inappropriate behaviour that threatens to jeopardize the health & safety of others or interferes with the normal operation of the business. That could include aggressive growling, barking or lunging; peeing on the floor; repeatedly barking in a movie theater; and drooling on the filet mignon in the meat department of the grocery store.


^ This. Absolutely. Needs bolded and repeated.



> If I'm the owner/manager of a business and someone walks in with a dog that I don't believe is a service dog, what do I do?


Ask them if a) the dog is a Service Dog required because of a disability and b) what tasks the dog is trained to do for them. Those are two questions you may legitimately ask and expect to have answered appropriately.

Also, if the dog does not behave appropriately - isn't under control, barks/lunges, pees in the store, etc. you can ask them to leave EVEN IF they are a legitimate dog/handler team.



> Onyx does therapy work and I take him places with me for training purposes and such (not restaurants and places where food is served but the mall/target/etc)


I think this is a bad idea for the reasons mentioned already by ILGHAUS.

Did your mall's Guest Services UNDERSTAND that your dog is going to be a Therapy Dog (and what a Therapy Dog is), rather than a Service Dog? I've found that many places will take a person's word for it when they say, "I'm training my Therapy Dog, can we go into the mall?" and take it to mean Service Dog, which does have public access because they don't want to be subject to a lawsuit. Actually, that seems to be so common that TDI's ID cards now say "This is not a Service or Assistance Dog Certification."


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## selzer

I think someone prescribed a dog for emotional support should be afforded the same accommodations, as for other service animals. Emotional illnesses, can be as debilitating as physical problems. I am thinking about people hiding in their homes, afraid to go out. If a dog can help that person live a more normal life, than that dog should be accommodated in my opinion. 

I think some people will abuse it, but those people will abuse other things too. For those who truly need the dogs it can really be helpful, for their sake, the dogs should be allowed. People finding ways to abuse the system, well, they will most likely get their just deserts somehow, somewhere.


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## Kaity

I was kidding when I said I've thought about it, was never nor will it ever be a serious thought of mine to put a vest on my dog. It's just one of those "wouldn't it be nice.." thoughts, sorry you took it so seriously.


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## ILGHAUS

> I think someone prescribed a dog for emotional support should be afforded the same accommodations, as for other service animals.


Emotional Support Dogs (ESD) are pets that the owner with the help of their treating medical provider have asked their landlord for an accommodation to a non-pets policy. An ESD is either not task trained or their owner is not legally disabled by a mental illness. If the person is legally disabled by their mental illness then they could look into a Psychiatric Service Dog (PSD) which is trained to mitigate their owner's disability. 

Quote from Service Dog Central: _It is important to note that having a diagnosis of a mental illness, by itself, is not sufficient to qualify a person for an ESA unless that illness is so severe it disables them._ 

It is important to know that a Psychiatric Service Dog is a real Service Dog just as an Alert/Response aka Medical Service Dog or a Mobility Service Dog.


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## selzer

ILGHAUS said:


> Emotional Support Dogs (ESD) are pets that the owner with the help of their treating medical provider have asked their landlord for an accommodation to a non-pets policy. An ESD is either not task trained or their owner is not legally disabled by a mental illness. If the person is legally disabled by their mental illness then they could look into a Psychiatric Service Dog (PSD) which is trained to mitigate their owner's disability.
> 
> Quote from Service Dog Central: _It is important to note that having a diagnosis of a mental illness, by itself, is not sufficient to qualify a person for an ESA unless that illness is so severe it disables them._
> 
> It is important to know that a Psychiatric Service Dog is a real Service Dog just as an Alert/Response aka Medical Service Dog or a Mobility Service Dog.


That makes sense. Not just everyone who feels better with their dog around should take them to the restaurant with them. Someone who has been homebound for four years -- maybe. Mental illnesses can be disabling.


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## BeautifulChaos

_"I posted in another thread about some relatives that purchased a pup from a lady who claimed that her two GSDS (the pup' s parents ) were service dogs. They licked their owner if she passed out. One can only speculate what would happen to the lady without the dogs licking her back to consciousness. Is is like a Snow White thing? She won't awake without her kiss? Is one of the dogs named "Prince?" _

This really bothers me. I have a Medical Alert/Response dog whose trained tasks (as of a few weeks ago) included just this thing.
I suffer from cardiac issues that make me faint anywhere from 1-30 times a day and being stimulated does help to wake me up.

With this in mind, he has other tasks including: fetching my inhalers when I have a severe asthma attack, getting help, picking up dropped items, helping me walk up stairs, and alerting me not only to when I'm going to faint, but when it is okay for me to walk again.

Most say that alerting doesn't qualify as a task, but I believe that in some instances, it should. A good percentage of alert dogs are dogs that have taught themselves. And it is true that even my dog began alerting (to some degree) on his own. However, his alert has been shaped and would technically be demonstrable. All someone would have to do is strap a heart monitor to me and let me and my dog walk across a room. My standing HR is anywhere between 115 and 187 - and he always always begins alerting at 140.

To everyone who just wishes they could take their dog anywhere, be careful what you wish for. It is not always easy when you HAVE to rely on help from your dog. Even walking in a parking lot is extremely dangerous for me. Yes, I do love the constant companionship, and it's nice feeling protected in walmart at 3am (though he is very friendly, I haven't a doubt in my mind that he would bite if I were in serious trouble). But I miss being able to walk to the bathroom on my own. I miss being able to drive. And I miss having friends that weren't embarrassed to go out with me.

And for those of us with "invisible disabilities", it can be even more challenging. I receive a lot of rude comments from people about how I am clearly not disabled. And when Ollie is standing on my lap in a restaurant (signal that I am not to stand up), I get even worse comments.

I drives me insane to see people with fake service dogs, and they are making it that much harder for people like me. However, I think it's fair to give the benefit of the doubt when dealing with a dog that doesn't "look" like a service dog -unless it is displaying out of control behavior that the owner is not effectively trying to control.

Keep in mind, they are dogs too. Not robots. Ollie has made some big mistakes in public, but like said before me, every outing is a training experience.

Just a little rant


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## blehmannwa

I hope that I did not offend you, Beautiful Chaos. I did not mean to imply that alerting and stimulating were bogus tasks. My post was written because of frustration with the byb who sold the dog and made the claim that the pups were somehow superior because both parents were service dogs which is highly unlikely.


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## Dooney's Mom

And when Ollie is standing on my lap in a restaurant (signal that I am not to stand up) said:


> I have to say, if I were to see a dog standing on someones lap in a restaraunt, I would jump to conclusions too. Now that I have read this i know better!
> 
> Thank you for educating me on that one!!!


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## Lin

selzer said:


> I think someone prescribed a dog for emotional support should be afforded the same accommodations, as for other service animals. Emotional illnesses, can be as debilitating as physical problems. I am thinking about people hiding in their homes, afraid to go out. If a dog can help that person live a more normal life, than that dog should be accommodated in my opinion.
> 
> I think some people will abuse it, but those people will abuse other things too. For those who truly need the dogs it can really be helpful, for their sake, the dogs should be allowed. People finding ways to abuse the system, well, they will most likely get their just deserts somehow, somewhere.


An ESA has no training, so it cannot be allowed everywhere. Its not a division between physical problems and mental problems, but between a trained and untrained dog. Someone who is disabled by emotional problems is welcome to get a psychiatric service dog which would accompany them in public. But by definition a ESA is untrained and therefor not allowed into public, only in housing and certain transportation. The individual is also welcome to train a ESA to become a service dog, but it still needs to reach that level of service training before it is allowed into public. Until then the individual is welcome to receive all the benefits of a pet's emotional support at home.

Alerting is not considered a task because it can not be trained. A true alert is something the dog has or does not have the ability to do. Such as seizure alerting. To complicate matters other things that are not actual alerts are frequently called such, for example hearing tasks. In a hearing "alert" dog the dog is actually responding to hearing something, not alerting which is something the dog does BEFORE the event happens. 

Because the ADA specifies "trained" tasks, something that cannot be trained such as seizure alert cannot be called a task. Since service dogs that alert have actual trained tasks in addition to alerting its a moot point about making an alert be classified as a task. The dog already performs trained tasks that qualify as a service dog, so whether or not an alert is called one doesn't matter. In addition there are pets who alert, since again this is something a dog has or does not have as opposed to something thats trained. Since tasks must be TRAINED, joe schmo who has a seizure alerting dog cannot bring that dog into public until its met the qualifications for public access training, obedience training, and task training. Can't just slap a patch on and call it a service dog. If someone is brought to court they must demonstrate to the judge that the dog is indeed a service dog and the individual is in deed legally disabled. So these trained tasks need to be performed on command, you can't just hope you happen to have a seizure in the court room.


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## BeautifulChaos

Lin said:


> Alerting is not considered a task because it can not be trained. A true alert is something the dog has or does not have the ability to do. Such as seizure alerting. To complicate matters other things that are not actual alerts are frequently called such, for example hearing tasks. In a hearing "alert" dog the dog is actually responding to hearing something, not alerting which is something the dog does BEFORE the event happens.
> 
> Because the ADA specifies "trained" tasks, something that cannot be trained such as seizure alert cannot be called a task. Since service dogs that alert have actual trained tasks in addition to alerting its a moot point about making an alert be classified as a task. The dog already performs trained tasks that qualify as a service dog, so whether or not an alert is called one doesn't matter. In addition there are pets who alert, since again this is something a dog has or does not have as opposed to something thats trained. Since tasks must be TRAINED, joe schmo who has a seizure alerting dog cannot bring that dog into public until its met the qualifications for public access training, obedience training, and task training. Can't just slap a patch on and call it a service dog. If someone is brought to court they must demonstrate to the judge that the dog is indeed a service dog and the individual is in deed legally disabled. So these trained tasks need to be performed on command, you can't just hope you happen to have a seizure in the court room.


I believe that some dogs that are not natural "alerters" can be taught to alert. Ollie began alerting to asthma attacks, but the fainting alert was trained. It was as simple as asking for a specific behavior each time I felt dizzy. Is he just a naturally tuned in dog? Maybe. But I did a bit of an experiment with my puppy, who initially did not alert, and taught her to do the same. Again, was she just naturally "that dog"? Can't say.

However, I know of many diabetic alert dogs who did not naturally exhibit the behavior, but were trained to do so. It's just asking for a behavior each time a scent is presented.

On the subject of seizure alerting, I am not a believer that it can be trained so much since each person has seizures for a variety of different reasons.

I say all of this because a year ago, all that I needed out of a SD was fetching and alerting. My dog taught himself to fetch my meds. So would this technically not be a trained task? Maybe not. Could I prove an alert in court? Absolutely. Simply walking around is enough to trigger a faint or SVT. But if alerting isn't a task, and fetching isn't a trained task, that would leave him to not really be a service dog. However, over the past year I have needed him for more things. How could I prove in court that he helps me walk up stairs? There is no command for it. Then again, I know nothing of what goes on in a court room regarding SD's. I would imagine that you could present a diabetic alert dog with a scent and read whether or not he alerts to it, but I don't know for sure. Anyways, I mean no disrespect. It's all out of curiosity on the subject 

Wendy - Typically it would be very rude SD etiquette. You have to watch the behavior of the dog to make an assumption. When he puts his paws up on me (either one or two), he is very concerned. He doesn't even turn to sniff the food, it's all about ME.

Last night we were at Olive Garden and just this happened. He darted out from under the table, pulling my rollling chair with him, and refused to lay back down. This is his form of intelligent disobedience - Telling me is more important that laying under the table. He was very unsettled, so I was going to take him out. As soon as I moved my chair, he put both front paws on me and just stared. That is my clue. I don't always know that he is about to alert until he does something very clear. I wish he could be more subtle, but chances are, I won't notice and he knows that.


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## BeautifulChaos

blehmannwa said:


> I hope that I did not offend you, Beautiful Chaos. I did not mean to imply that alerting and stimulating were bogus tasks. My post was written because of frustration with the byb who sold the dog and made the claim that the pups were somehow superior because both parents were service dogs which is highly unlikely.


Forgot to add - I'm not offended. It's just that I hear this kind of thing a lot. I think about what would happen if I were to faint in the middle of the road. Sometimes despite my dog's alert, it's just not quick enough and I faint during it. If I were in the road and no one was there to help me wake up quickly, what would happen?


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## gsdsar

Wow- this has been a great thread- I have learned an enormous amount- so thanks to everyone for sharing and explaining.

I agree that business and owners need to educate themselves, because I would assume that they do not want to offend or do anything illegal, so they dont ask. Before I read this thread I assumed that ESA were Service dogs and if a customer walked in with one and said they were I would let them in. Bettre safe than sorry I guess. 

So thanks for education.


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## Lin

Chaos: what you keep describing is not an alert. If you trained the dog to respond in a specific way because you feel dizzy, the dog is not alerting (predicting) something that is going to happen, but reacting to something that IS happening. Same with a diabetic "alert" because the dog is responding to an existing change, not predicting one. If a dog is predicting something there is no way to prove it in a court of law unless you just happen to have the event in court. And since its not something that can be trained, it can't be considered a trained task the way the ADA is written. 

The language can catch people up very easily. As I said before, the term alert is used for many things that are not actual alerts. But when discussing an alert in reference to trained tasks, when its not a trained task thats because a true alert is not trained. The term can be then used later with a completely different meaning. Another one is how we describe service dogs as having public access, especially in reference to the difference between service dogs, SDITs, and ESAs. But the service dog itself actually has no public access, its the disabled individual that has the right to be accompanied by their service dog. 

Who said fetching is not a task? My service dog fetches. Most mobility assistance dogs fetch. But even if a dog innately wants to fetch, it still has to be shaped into a trained task. There's a big difference between tossing a toy for him to go get, and having the reliability to send him for an item when you need it. If you just took your dogs natural tendency to fetch and did not shape it into a trained task, then yes I would say that it was not service task. And as for only fetching and alerting, if the dog was actually doing an alert and not a response that would not be enough to qualify the dog as a service dog. If your dog was trained in response and fetching, it would be in a grey area as to if your dog was a service dog according to law.


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## BeautifulChaos

Lin said:


> Chaos: what you keep describing is not an alert. If you trained the dog to respond in a specific way because you feel dizzy, the dog is not alerting (predicting) something that is going to happen, but reacting to something that IS happening. Same with a diabetic "alert" because the dog is responding to an existing change, not predicting one. If a dog is predicting something there is no way to prove it in a court of law unless you just happen to have the event in court. And since its not something that can be trained, it can't be considered a trained task the way the ADA is written.


Now I'm confused. So what would technically classify as an alert? Even a seizure alert would be in response to a smell/chemical change, etc.
The way that my dog responds is: first "alert" at a HR of 140, begins higher alerts depending on what is going on blood pressure wise. He is telling me to sit before I even know that I am going to faint or get dizzy. So I saw that as him alerting me that I am going to faint in about 3 seconds.

Who said fetching is not a task? My service dog fetches. Most mobility assistance dogs fetch. But even if a dog innately wants to fetch, it still has to be shaped into a trained task. There's a big difference between tossing a toy for him to go get, and having the reliability to send him for an item when you need it. If you just took your dogs natural tendency to fetch and did not shape it into a trained task, then yes I would say that it was not service task. And as for only fetching and alerting, if the dog was actually doing an alert and not a response that would not be enough to qualify the dog as a service dog. If your dog was trained in response and fetching, it would be in a grey area as to if your dog was a service dog according to law.[/QUOTE]

When I say it's not a trained task, I mean that in response to a beginning asthma attack, he taught himself to search out and fetch my inhalers. Other than being rewarded for it, there was no training involved for it. He began doing it on his own after watching me do it.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but according to the ADA, there is no set number of tasks a SD must perform.
The ADI, however, says there has to be a minimum of 3, but is that the official federal law? I always thought the ADI was more of a guideline, but is not law. 

I have met many mobility dogs whose only tasks were fetching and wheelchair pulling. So do they not technically qualify?


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## Lin

BeautifulChaos said:


> Now I'm confused. So what would technically classify as an alert? Even a seizure alert would be in response to a smell/chemical change, etc.


A seizure would be an alert because the dog is predicting. We do not know if the dog is responding to a smell or chemical change. Thats why seizure alerts cannot be trained, at this point we have no idea how the alerts actually work. 



> When I say it's not a trained task, I mean that in response to a beginning asthma attack, he taught himself to search out and fetch my inhalers. Other than being rewarded for it, there was no training involved for it. He began doing it on his own after watching me do it.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but according to the ADA, there is no set number of tasks a SD must perform.
> The ADI, however, says there has to be a minimum of 3, but is that the official federal law? I always thought the ADI was more of a guideline, but is not law.
> 
> I have met many mobility dogs whose only tasks were fetching and wheelchair pulling. So do they not technically qualify?


ADI is not law, but many countries will follow it. The ADA does not say tasks at all. The DOJ says work or tasks in the plural. So the usual legal interpretation is at least 2. And if someone has to go to court, the judge can also decide if a certain task doesn't qualify as mitigating the legal disability. For example if you were only medically disabled and not legally disabled (I have no idea your medical history and couldn't say) by asthma the judge could say that fetching an inhaler did not count as a task to mitigate your specific disability. And of course if your dog was not able to fetch the inhaler on command to demonstrate it would not be a trained task. 

Fetching and wheelchair pulling would be a minimum of two trained tasks. So as long as the person was legally disabled and the dog meeting requirements in obedience and public access they would be a service dog. Also a dog who pulls a wheelchair will most likely have other mobility tasks, such as pulling to help a person get up or during transfers. And wheelchair mobility dogs usually always retrieve as well since its difficult for the user to retrieve from a chair. 

Its a grey area, and its really best to not have under 3 solid service tasks. In addition someone who only needs one task draws the question if they are legally disabled. It would not be up to me or you to decide, but a judge. 

And I held my tongue earlier... But a service dog in your lap at a restaurant is really not appropriate. And honestly it doesn't matter if that is her alert, you should train a more appropriate response. If someone trained a dog to bark non stop it wouldn't be appropriate to do in public. Regardless of what it was alerting/responding to.


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## BeautifulChaos

Lin said:


> And I held my tongue earlier... But a service dog in your lap at a restaurant is really not appropriate. And honestly it doesn't matter if that is her alert, you should train a more appropriate response. If someone trained a dog to bark non stop it wouldn't be appropriate to do in public. Regardless of what it was alerting/responding to.


This really offends me as I spoke with many many service dog organizations and fellow trainers and this was their exact recommendation. I hate going into too much detail regarding my disabilities, but feel it kind of necessary.

His alert used to be to nudge me on my leg - the problem with that is that I often lose feeling in my limbs, so I wouldn't notice it. He would get carried away barking/whining.
After standing up in a restaurant and consequently knocking over a table full of food, and a waiter and his cart, we had to figure out something. Often when I get an episode this bad I have trouble making a good decision about whether or not I'm okay to stand - think not enough blood in your brain; it becomes really hard to make decisions.
So, our recommendation was to see if it were at all possible to get him to place his front feet on my lap to prevent me from standing up. It's his "code red". This alone has kept me out of the hospital many many times and is one of his most important jobs.

As far as the alert topic, well that's quite the confusing subject. I'm still guessing that the asthma is an alert since we do not know exactly what it is that he senses before he decides to search out help. The faint we know that he begins alerting to severe tachycardia. Not sure how he knows exactly when I'm going to lose consciousness though. Assuming something to do with blood pressure.
With seizures, the dog has to be responding to something, be it smell, chemical change, maybe even just a slight twitch of the finger, who knows. I have seen a seizure dog trained to alert to an oncoming seizure with a girl whose eyes darted around several minutes prior to the seizure. So with the definition you give, this dog would no longer be an alert dog since you know what it's alerting to?


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## BeautifulChaos

Lin said:


> For example if you were only medically disabled and not legally disabled (I have no idea your medical history and couldn't say) by asthma the judge could say that fetching an inhaler did not count as a task to mitigate your specific disability.


Wanted to throw it out there for those that do not know or may get confused. There really is no "legally disabled". Each government agency has their own definition of disabled. Such as the SSA's definition is not the same as the ADA. You do not have to be disabled per the SSA in order to have a SD, only the ADAs definition counts in this matter.

Asthma is NOT _normally_ considered disabling for your average person. However, severe enough, it can be disabling when you get the kind that keeps you from being able to function.

I didn't want people reading this thread and getting the wrong idea.


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## Chicagocanine

Lin said:


> Chaos: what you keep describing is not an alert. If you trained the dog to respond in a specific way because you feel dizzy, the dog is not alerting (predicting) something that is going to happen, but reacting to something that IS happening. Same with a diabetic "alert" because the dog is responding to an existing change, not predicting one.


If they don't actually alert why do they call them diabetic alert dogs? I think you can argue that any type of "alert" is reacting to something that is happening, including seizure alert. If nothing was happening there would be no way for the dog to alert. There has to be something happening that the dog is picking up on, it's just the dog notices it before the human does-- same as with diabetic alert.


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## BeautifulChaos

Chicagocanine said:


> I think you can argue that any type of "alert" is reacting to something that is happening, including seizure alert. If nothing was happening there would be no way for the dog to alert. There has to be something happening that the dog is picking up on, it's just the dog notices it before the human does-- same as with diabetic alert.


This is my thought exactly. They are not looking into the future, all alerts are a response to something.

Trying to understand where Lin is coming from, I think it is that dogs that are doing a "true alert" are responding to something that we do not know is causing the episode - be it a seizure or other.
She is saying that a "true alert" can't be trained because you don't know what the dog needs to alert to. If you do know what the dog needs to alert to, then it would fall under the category of response...? My wording is probably not the best here! Is this what you are trying to convey, Lin?

Either way, the dog is exhibiting a behavior in response to _something_.

In my personal experience of working with SDs and organizations, the term alert (with the exception of hearing alert), has always meant something that the dog detects is going on inside the humans body, that without machines, you can not detect. Does not matter if it is trained or natural, an alert is an alert.

It's all likely too complicated to draw the fine lines. Not a lot of research has been done on what a seizure alert dog is actually alerting to. It's mostly speculation, though the common belief is a chemical change. I know of one case study in which the group of people were found to have seizures that were all in their head (can't remember the term) and the dogs were alerting to the trigger, and not the oncoming seizure. If I can ever find it, I'll post a link. It's been awhile.

With all that being said, a service dog clearly must have some trained task to mitigate it's handler's disability. IF one of those tasks includes an alert, it is still grey area. Sure I could prove in a few second's time in court that my dog does alert, but could I prove that it is trained and not a natural response? Probably not - unless someone wanted to go through my training logs. Even then, grey area.

ETA: I feel that I should add in response to Lin, that he was not trained to respond a certain way _because_ I felt dizzy. I used the dizziness as a guide for him. After a couple of weeks, he was alerting before hand. I often don't know that something is going to happen until a few seconds after he has made me sit down. He is not responding to the dizziness itself.


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## Lin

BeautifulChaos said:


> As far as the alert topic, well that's quite the confusing subject. I'm still guessing that the asthma is an alert since we do not know exactly what it is that he senses before he decides to search out help. The faint we know that he begins alerting to severe tachycardia. Not sure how he knows exactly when I'm going to lose consciousness though. Assuming something to do with blood pressure.
> With seizures, the dog has to be responding to something, be it smell, chemical change, maybe even just a slight twitch of the finger, who knows. I have seen a seizure dog trained to alert to an oncoming seizure with a girl whose eyes darted around several minutes prior to the seizure. So with the definition you give, this dog would no longer be an alert dog since you know what it's alerting to?


When we do not know what a dog is alerting to, that makes it impossible to be able to train it. That's what I keep saying over and over, so I'm not sure how to further simplify it. And if something cannot be trained, then it cannot be considered a "trained task." In addition due to the fact that a certain number of pets alert along with the fact many alert dogs will alert strangers and not just their owners, it suggests this is an ability that the dog has or does not have and is not something that's able to be trained. 

When it comes to seizure dogs, they are first and foremost trained in seizure RESPONSE. The response is a trained task, and then whether or not they develop the ability to alert is then a moot point because the dog is a service dog based on the trained tasks. Its just a bonus. 



BeautifulChaos said:


> Wanted to throw it out there for those that do not know or may get confused. There really is no "legally disabled". Each government agency has their own definition of disabled.


This is incorrect. There are definitions for legally disabled, and if an individual ever has to appear in court they must prove to the judge that they are legally, and not just medically, disabled. 



BeautifulChaos said:


> Such as the SSA's definition is not the same as the ADA. You do not have to be disabled per the SSA in order to have a SD, only the ADAs definition counts in this matter.


Correct, the ADA's definition is all that counts when you are seeking protection for your civil rights under the ADA. And it is the ADA that defines disability.


Anyone with a service dog really should be familiar with these laws, I highly recommend reading the following in full.

Section 902 Definition of the Term Disability

Here is a small relevant sample:



> (b) Statutory Definition -- With respect to an individual, the term "disability" means (A) a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of such individual;
> (B) a record of such an impairment; or
> (C) being regarded as having such an impairment.
> 
> 
> The first part of the definition covers persons who actually have physical or mental impairments that substantially limit one or more major life activities. The focus under the first part is on the individual, to determine if (s)he has a substantially limiting impairment. To fall under the first part of the definition, a person must establish three elements:
> (1) that (s)he has a physical or mental impairment
> (2) that substantially limits
> (3) one or more major life activities.
> 
> 902.3 Major Life Activities (a) General -- For an impairment to rise to the level of a disability, it must substantially limit, have previously substantially limited, or be perceived as substantially limiting, one or more of a person's major life activities. There has been little controversy about what constitutes a major life activity. In most cases, courts have simply stated that an impaired activity is a major life activity. In general, major life activities "are those basic activities that the average person in the general population can perform with little or no difficulty." 29 C.F.R. pt. 1630 app.§ 1630.2(i).
> (b) Regulatory Definition -- Commission regulations define the term "major life activities" to mean "functions such as caring for oneself, performing manual tasks, walking, seeing, hearing, speaking, breathing, learning, and working."





Chicagocanine said:


> If they don't actually alert why do they call them diabetic alert dogs? I think you can argue that any type of "alert" is reacting to something that is happening, including seizure alert. If nothing was happening there would be no way for the dog to alert. There has to be something happening that the dog is picking up on, it's just the dog notices it before the human does-- same as with diabetic alert.


The term alert is used to refer to different things, as I mentioned earlier. Alert is used in reference to seizure alert, diabetic alert, hearing alert, and so forth. 

When discussing an alert not counting as a service task, it is referring to a "true" alert which is the prediction of an event and not a response to an event. In those cases we do not know what the dog is responding to and are unable to train it as a result. Something that is not trained, cannot count as a "trained task." And thus why it is discussed that alerting is not a service task. 

There is actually quite a bit of controversy surrounding diabetic dogs. This results from the failure of those with DADs to volunteer for research and testing. There was funding available, but not a single DAD team was willing to volunteer. Which raises some red flags, because if your so proud of your dog who is saving your life why wouldn't you want to demonstrate that and increase publicity, recognition, funding, and so forth for others with your disease that could benefit from a service dog. I personally do not know what I believe, but having heard from some experts in the matter was enough to make me stop and think. 

In addition, thats an awful lot of trust to be placing in a dog. Increasing independence is a big difference from putting your life in the hands of a dog. So the dog should never be a replacement for regular glucose testing. Also, the nature of their job requires the dog to be "on" and working constantly, without any breaks. Those with the dogs or training the dogs claim that the dog is able to monitor and alert the patient to glucose changes during sleep. Can a dog wake itself up to regularly check for glucose changes? If so, is that fair to the dog? I'll repeat that I don't stand on either side of the situation, not enough is known at this time to sway me to one side or the other. But its an interesting topic.


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## BeautifulChaos

Lin said:


> In addition, thats an awful lot of trust to be placing in a dog. Increasing independence is a big difference from putting your life in the hands of a dog. So the dog should never be a replacement for regular glucose testing. Also, the nature of their job requires the dog to be "on" and working constantly, without any breaks. Those with the dogs or training the dogs claim that the dog is able to monitor and alert the patient to glucose changes during sleep. Can a dog wake itself up to regularly check for glucose changes? If so, is that fair to the dog? I'll repeat that I don't stand on either side of the situation, not enough is known at this time to sway me to one side or the other. But its an interesting topic.


I remember a quote from an organization that trained alert dogs that said if your life depends on the dog, then a service dog is not for you - something along those lines.

I could never expect my dog to be watching me 100% of the time, though there have been many times I've woken up to him just staring at me -it's almost creepy haha!

I always tell people "He's a dog, not a robot." He spends most of his day lounging around the house, mostly because most of my day is me stuck in bed. But any time that I get up, he is glued to my side and won't go more than a foot away. I'd say he's "on duty" in the house about 50% of the time on a good day.

I'd be curious to hear how one gets a dog to "monitor" during the night - would be pretty interesting.


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## Lin

There have been a lot of threads on the matter over at Service Dog Central if you'd like to look. 

I know one person stated that during training the dog is regularly woken up every hour or so and asked to check for glucose changes, and that over time it becomes routine and the dog wakes itself. But again, if thats true I'm unsure if I would consider that fair to the dog, and I'd also like to see proof first.


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