# It's confirmed......Kain will protect his property



## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

It's always been a question of mine with every dog I've ever owned, will my dog protect his home? Well, now I know. Kain will absolutely protect his home and do so without hesitation. The other morning, the meter reader from the power company came by to read my meter. I have a 6 ft chain link fence with locked gates and 'beware of dog' signs hanging everywhere, so the reader had to stand outside the fence with binoculars. Kain was going crazy, standing his ground at the fence and giving the meter man a very clear message that he was not to come any closer. I could see that he was having a hard time reading the numbers through his binoculars, so I went out and read the numbers off to him. Once he had them all written down, he raised his hand to wave and thank me. I'm thinking it was this guy raising his hand that set Kain off, cuz right at that moment, Kain lunged at the fence and hit it so hard it bounced him (kain) several feet back into the yard . I was a little shocked to say the least, as I know the meter reader was as well. It all happened so fast. Kain continued barking and growling until the guy got into his truck and drove off. I've never seen that side of Kain before, and I must admit that it was a little reassuring to me, knowing without a doubt that I can leave my wife and kids at home and they will be protected. 

Wow, my lil pup is growing into a dog.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

wow. poor meter guy! lol. good job Kain for protecting his property but i feel for the meter guy! lol


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would consider NOT encouraging that kind of behavior when a person who is not dangerous but routinely comes to the house comes by (like meter reader, UPS) - all it takes is one day the gate is open and the repeated frustration caused them barking and lunging at people and the successes (I barked - they left) can set you up for a bad experience the day the kid forgets to latch the gate or some kid goes into your yard.

A good dog will have a sense about what is and is not really a threat. With you there, a quick alarm bark, acknowledgement on your part, then a command to sit and stay would probably be better.

Just my two cents.....I realized that in 1987 when one of mine leapt over a 4 foot high porch railing and down 10 feet to get to the postman. Fortunately the postman kicked him in the head and was not bitten nor was the dog hurt. Shook me up enough to realize the potential liability.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> A good dog will have a sense about what is and is not really a threat. With you there, a quick alarm bark, acknowledgement on your part, then a command to sit and stay would probably be better.


That was my thought. I would actually be quite concerned about the behavior you described. I would expect my dogs to give an alarm bark, but if I was there I'd then expect them to be quiet and polite. If I was not there, well my dogs wouldn't be in the yard... But if they were, I would HOPE they would give an alarm/warning bark and then hold off on anything further unless the guy proved himself to be an actual danger.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> *I would consider NOT encouraging that kind of behavior when a person who is not dangerous but routinely comes to the house comes by (like meter reader, UPS)* - all it takes is one day the gate is open and the repeated frustration caused them barking and lunging at people and the successes (I barked - they left) can set you up for a bad experience the day the kid forgets to latch the gate or some kid goes into your yard.
> 
> A good dog will have a sense about what is and is not really a threat. With you there, a quick alarm bark, acknowledgement on your part, then a command to sit and stay would probably be better.
> 
> Just my two cents.....I realized that in 1987 when one of mine leapt over a 4 foot high porch railing and down 10 feet to get to the postman. Fortunately the postman kicked him in the head and was not bitten nor was the dog hurt. Shook me up enough to realize the potential liability.


I didn't praise him for his behavior but I'm certainly not going to discourage it either. In my opinion, any stranger lurking around my backyard fence should be perceived as suspicious, and a suspicious stranger raising a high hand to me (or my wife, or my children) should be perceived as a threat by my dog. How could I possibly expect my dog to know the difference when the majority of people can't even tell the difference? He (Kain) acted appropriately in my opinion.


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## rjThor (Mar 27, 2011)

Good job Kain, and I'm sure you are gonna get some upset readers on here, but you did have the postings around the gates, and the locks on your gates, so at least the meter man and anyone who heard Kain bark, now knows that even with the locks on your gate, it's not wise to jump over them....Hopefully you gave him a treat once he calmed down. Some of the readers on here read and presume way to much into a thread, so good luck with yours......lol.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

RazinKain said:


> I didn't praise him for his behavior but I'm certainly not going to discourage it either. In my opinion, any stranger lurking around my backyard fence should be perceived as suspicious, and a suspicious stranger raising a high hand to me (or my wife, or my children) should be perceived as a threat by my dog. How could I possibly expect my dog to know the difference when the majority of people can't even tell the difference? He (Kain) acted appropriately in my opinion.


I agree. I would say if my dog acted that way in that situation, I'd think it was appropriate as well for the same reasons. 




> A good dog will have a sense about what is and is not really a threat. With you there, a quick alarm bark, acknowledgement on your part, then a command to sit and stay would probably be better.


When I see comments like this made multiple times/places on this forum, I think you guys must all have super dogs. Or robots. I'm just saying I've never seen a dog (other than Schutzhund videos) do this.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I would consider NOT encouraging that kind of behavior when a person who is not dangerous but routinely comes to the house comes by (like meter reader, UPS) - all it takes is one day the gate is open and the repeated frustration caused them barking and lunging at people and the successes (I barked - they left) can set you up for a bad experience the day the kid forgets to latch the gate or some kid goes into your yard.
> 
> A good dog will have a sense about what is and is not really a threat. With you there, a quick alarm bark, acknowledgement on your part, then a command to sit and stay would probably be better.
> 
> Just my two cents.....I realized that in 1987 when one of mine leapt over a 4 foot high porch railing and down 10 feet to get to the postman. Fortunately the postman kicked him in the head and was not bitten nor was the dog hurt. Shook me up enough to realize the potential liability.


exactly my thoughts


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I believe that dogs can tell the difference between good and bad people, threatening or non threatening people, etc. I was walking out of my apartment one nigt and these 2 thuggish looking guys walked by and then Stopped and turned around and kind of started walking my way. I was letting my oldest Apollo pee. He gave he meanest snarl and growl I have ever heard from him, which before that I really never heard him growl except at Riley saying "get away from my food" and even then that growl sounded different, a non threatening growl. Those guys walked away after Apollo growled. On the other hand ive had the maintence guy come in and fix a few things and Riley and Apollo act perfectly fine. I really do think dogs can sense The difference between good and bad people


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

And I was quoting raizinkain about the telling the difference part. I forgot to hit the quote button


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Heagler870 said:


> I believe that dogs can tell the difference between good and bad people, threatening or non threatening people, etc. I was walking out of my apartment one nigt and these 2 thuggish looking guys walked by and then Stopped and turned around and kind of started walking my way. I was letting my oldest Apollo pee. He gave he meanest snarl and growl I have ever heard from him, which before that I really never heard him growl except at Riley saying "get away from my food" and even then that growl sounded different, a non threatening growl. Those guys walked away after Apollo growled. On the other hand ive had the maintence guy come in and fix a few things and Riley and Apollo act perfectly fine. I really do think dogs can sense The difference between good and bad people


I agree. Once my sister brought over a boyfriend to meet the family and Molly stood her ground and barked and growled. We corrected her and she just went and laid down and would not take her eyes off him. Then a couple weeks after that boyfriend turned out to be a jerk. Then another time sister brought over a different boyfriend and Molly didn't bark or growl she handed him her toys and wanted to play. There are times when I am walking either dog and they may see someone they think is a threat and watch them, but then there are people they don't even look at and are fine.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

It is always interesting to see how they react. When I lived in Tempe I had a couple examples that showed me what Amadeus would do. One time I was not at home but my mom was. Amadeus was in the back yard which was closed in by a 6 foot fence. Our neighbors had someone doing some work on their satellite, or something like that. The repair man put the ladder against the wall between our houses and climbed up it. My mom said that dog went flying over to the wall and started growling and barking. To him that man was coming over into our yard and he was not okay with it. As soon as my mom realized what was going on and let him know it was okay, he stopped. Another time we had someone come over to work on our t.v. Justin needed into the backyard, so I went out back to get Amadeus while Justin came through the side gate. I had my back to the gate but Amadeus saw him. He started growling and gave a warning bark. The second I turned around and said hi to Justin he stopped. The fact that I was fine with him coming into our yard was signal enough for him to stop and accept it. That is the way I think the dog should act. Be wary and protective when their people are home, but stop the instant their people say it is fine.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Not too sure how a dog going off on someone doing their job without posing any threat at all considered protection. Seems like a fear issue to me.

Hopefully one day the mailman or delivery guy doesn't come by to drop off a package and the dog doesn't get loose and bites an innocent person. Seems like an easy way to get sued and your dog put down.

Now if your dog were to give off a warning bark or growl followed by a firm stare while keeping it's calm... that i'd consider a protection type behavior, but barking chaotically at an innocent person for no reason other than being unknown is not protection.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> Not too sure how a dog going off on someone doing their job without posing any threat at all considered protection. Seems like a fear issue to me.
> 
> Hopefully one day the mailman or delivery guy doesn't come by to drop off a package and the dog doesn't get loose and bites an innocent person. Seems like an easy way to get sued and your dog put down.
> 
> Now if your dog were to give off a warning bark or growl followed by a firm stare while keeping it's calm... that i'd consider a protection type behavior, but barking chaotically at an innocent person for no reason other than being unknown is not protection.


:thumbup:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know that I am always more concerned about the quiet dogs watching my every move....I can usually defuse the fence barkers (fence barkers are great for training my own dogs...and I even got them trained too to be nice when I went by - cheap insurance for me)

Dogs are valuable as deterrents, don't get me wrong. But even people with trained personal protection dogs often tell folks to get a gun....because maintaining such a dog is so much work and always a bit of a risk.........Police dogs find and knock the suspect off their feet until the police can get there and finish the job....


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Not too sure how a dog going off on someone doing their job without posing any threat at all considered protection. Seems like a fear issue to me.
> 
> Hopefully one day the mailman or delivery guy doesn't come by to drop off a package and the dog doesn't get loose and bites an innocent person. Seems like an easy way to get sued and your dog put down.


Well, if he ever actually gets the opportunity to protect me in the future, I hope he doesn't wait until the bad guy stabs me in the neck before he decides it's a 'real threat'. Maybe one day I can afford to send him to ESP training so he can more accurating determine what someone is thinking and therefore 'know' what kind of a threat they are posing. Maybe I'll just put him down now (because he obviously has fear issues and is genetically inferior) and buy a truly stable dog that will not react to anything unless it's told to, and will let any and all degenerates into my home to do as they will.

Hopefully, one day the mailman or delivery guy won't climb into my 6 ft 'posted' and padlocked backyard fence to deliver the package. I would hate to get sued.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

RazinKain said:


> . How could I possibly expect my dog to know the difference when the majority of people can't even tell the difference? He (Kain) acted appropriately in my opinion.


Dogs are not only better at reading human body language and its nuances than people, their night vision is better than ours and their incredible sense of smell allows them to pick up on emotions that we cannot percieve.

Dogs can tell when someone is pumped up on adrenaline and I would bet a dime to a dollar that someone will ill intentions is going to display those emotions in his scent .


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

RazinKain said:


> Well, if he ever actually gets the opportunity to protect me in the future, I hope he doesn't wait until the bad guy stabs me in the neck before he decides it's a 'real threat'. Maybe one day I can afford to send him to ESP training so he can more accurating determine what someone is thinking and therefore 'know' what kind of a threat they are posing. Maybe I'll just put him down now (because he obviously has fear issues and is genetically inferior) and buy a truly stable dog that will not react to anything unless it's told to, and will let any and all degenerates into my home to do as they will.
> 
> Hopefully, one day the mailman or delivery guy won't climb into my 6 ft 'posted' and padlocked backyard fence to deliver the package. I would hate to get sued.


Dramatic much? I believe the concern is your encouragement of such behavior. As for the fence, I've seen dogs scale 6 foot privacy fences so its not beyond possibility that encouraging the behavior could eventually result in your dog going over the fence to attack a postal worker or meter reader.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

I do think I posted earlier that I did not praise his behavior.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lin, my first point was kind of to that point.

Repeated frustration will really drive a dog..delivery and postal people and meter readers are at risk because the dog gets a false sense of security because every time they bark at them the bad guy goes away...nothing to do with the dog but the dog does not know that.

I never would have thought my dog (1987) would have jumped over a four foot high wall on a second floor to go after a mailman. My "fearless" protector took the kick in his head and walked away with his tail tucked and I learned a valuable lesson and thank the good Lord the postal man knew how to handle it. He was very much like this dog. After that incident we did some serious obedience training and when he learned I was in control lived 12 more years as a trusted family member with no incidents.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Lin, my first point was kind of to that point.


Yes, and thats why I quoted you and was agreeing with you 

I was reiterating the point after Razin's hyperbolic post that we think his dog should be put down for weak nerves. No one insinuated anything near that.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

RazinKain said:


> Well, if he ever actually gets the opportunity to protect me in the future, I hope he doesn't wait until the bad guy stabs me in the neck before he decides it's a 'real threat'. Maybe one day I can afford to send him to ESP training so he can more accurating determine what someone is thinking and therefore 'know' what kind of a threat they are posing. Maybe I'll just put him down now (because he obviously has fear issues and is genetically inferior) and buy a truly stable dog that will not react to anything unless it's told to, and will let any and all degenerates into my home to do as they will.
> 
> Hopefully, one day the mailman or delivery guy won't climb into my 6 ft 'posted' and padlocked backyard fence to deliver the package. I would hate to get sued.


I would hate for you too get sued too, but it happens. That's why I suggest you look into some extra training and socialization to hopefully get Kain over this before it really becomes a bad habit.

I'm not too sure where you can get that ESP training, but I think some extra socialization would help. Some extra classes with a good trainer wouldn't hurt either. Maybe the next time the meter man comes to your home, have them give him a treat. Let them know he's here in peace and not to stab anyone in the neck.

There are plenty of people that have dogs with issues like this. The key is to learn how to manage and train your dog to best handle these type of situations.

BTW... has he had any formal training? What kind of socialization have you done with him?


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

My first gsd dog ever as a kid bit the mailman. I was 6 I think and it was totally my fault. I was coming out of the backyard to go inside and forgot to latch the gait, went inside and my mom got me some water and all the sudden we hear the dog and the mailman yelling. I remember my mom ran outside and I was behind her and max was chasing the mailman. Max and the mailman were already so far away that my mom ran to the truck and drove down to max and got him. Luckily our mailman was a family friend so he wasn't too upset and luckily Max didn't break skin. When my mom got home I got the worst whipping I probably ever had. Needless to say I didn't ever forget to latch the gait again.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I would hate for you too get sued too, but it happens. That's why I suggest you look into some extra training and socialization to hopefully get Kain over this before it really becomes a bad habit.
> 
> I'm not too sure where you can get that ESP training, but I think some extra socialization would help. Some extra classes with a good trainer wouldn't hurt either. Maybe the next time the meter man comes to your home, have them give him a treat. Let them know he's here in peace and not to stab anyone in the neck.
> 
> ...


Sorry for going off on a tangent, just having a bad day. But to answer your question; no formal training but very socialized. The Vet is always complimenting him on his manners and obedience. But, as for allowing the meter man to give Kain treats, that's not gonna happen. I don't want Kain thinking that he should automatically befriend every stranger that happens to walk up because they have goodies for him. I live in the country and I need for my dog to be an effective deterrent, not a welcome mat.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

RazinKain said:


> Sorry for going off on a tangent, just having a bad day. But to answer your question; no formal training but very socialized. The Vet is always complimenting him on his manners and obedience. But, as for allowing the meter man to give Kain treats, that's not gonna happen. I don't want Kain thinking that he should automatically befriend every stranger that happens to walk up because they have goodies for him. I live in the country and I need for my dog to be an effective deterrent, not a welcome mat.


Don't worry about it... its just a suggestion with the whole treats thing. I live in an area where there's constantly people walking around the house and delivering packages and what not. The last thing I'd want is my dog flipping out on every person that got close to her yard, but I never leave her out there alone, so i'm always supervising.

Maybe the next time the meter man comes, bring kain inside so he can do his job in peace. Let him see that the dogs there, but as soon as he does, bring the dog in. I'm sure he won't forget that there's a big dog right behind the front door.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> As soon as my mom realized what was going on and let him know it was okay, he stopped. Another time we had someone come over to work on our t.v. Justin needed into the backyard, so I went out back to get Amadeus while Justin came through the side gate. I had my back to the gate but Amadeus saw him. He started growling and gave a warning bark. The second I turned around and said hi to Justin he stopped. The fact th:thumbup:at I was fine with him coming into our yard was signal enough for him to stop and accept it. That is the way I think the dog should act. Be wary and protective when their people are home, but stop the instant their people say it is fine.


 That is awesome and I completely agree with you on how our dog SHOULD act! Good boy Amadeus!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I think that many of us get the dog we want because we raise them and encourage wanted behaviors and discourage unwanted ones. Of course, each dog has its own built-in personality which we can't change much but to some degree we can mold our dogs.
Kain is the dog his owner wants him to be, so good for him with all the associated caveats. He is not the type of dog I would want but that is moot.

My dog is the dog I want her to be and she would not be the right dog for some people.
Fortunately, I have her and they don't.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I would consider NOT encouraging that kind of behavior when a person who is not dangerous but routinely comes to the house comes by (like meter reader, UPS) - all it takes is one day the gate is open and the repeated frustration caused them barking and lunging at people and the successes (I barked - they left) can set you up for a bad experience the day the kid forgets to latch the gate or some kid goes into your yard.
> 
> A good dog will have a sense about what is and is not really a threat. With you there, a quick alarm bark, acknowledgement on your part, then a command to sit and stay would probably be better.
> 
> Just my two cents.....I realized that in 1987 when one of mine leapt over a 4 foot high porch railing and down 10 feet to get to the postman. Fortunately the postman kicked him in the head and was not bitten nor was the dog hurt. Shook me up enough to realize the potential liability.


I agree, a dog should be in control if there is no threat the owner should give a command to quiet and sit the dog.
My Dad read water meters for years and my husband drives for UPS so I maybe biased. 
In many areas a meter reader has a legal right to be able to read the meter easily without a threat, so that could put you into trouble too. 
My husband carries dog treats with him just in case.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is truly amazing what a dog can do when he wants to get through a fence.

Had some friends take my dog during a family emergency. They put Grim in the 6 foot high chain link dog pen with the concrete floor then went back to get Cyra the female.

By the time they got back to the car, Grim was there with Cyra. He had ripped the chain link off a corner of the pen, cleared two four foot fences and beat them to the car. Once they were together, he was fine.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I agree with most people on this thread. A dog is supposed to alert you to someones presense and yes I want my dog to be "protective" to a degree however I also want my dog to TRUST ME enough to back off when I'm out there and telling them it's ok. Someone raising their arm to wave is not a threat the dog should not get so charged up by it they charge the fence trying to go through it and bounce off of it. Why on earth would you sit there calling off meter numbers OVER TOP of your dog barking. Either shut the dog up since obviously it's not a threatening situation or put the dog safely inside for the guy to come back and do his job. 



RazinKain said:


> I do think I posted earlier that I did not praise his behavior.


Actualy you kind of did praise him because barking is a self rewarding behavior to a dog. Him barking and the guy leaving was another self rewarding thing. To the dog you also encouraged it because with a dog you either encourage a behavior or you don't. If you allow them to do somethin it's encouraged if you stop it then you're not. 

I do completely get you not wanting to have strangers give the dog treats I'm on the fence personally with this one because I want her to love people but also the first thing bad people will do is throw a poisoned steak over the fence to take care of the dog so don't want her just going and taking stuff from strangers all the time.

Also, stopping the barking entirely can be bad as well. I have known someone who aways stopped her dog from barking then one time someone broke in and robbed them and the dog just laid there and never barked once. Personally for me I believe a great thing is to allow the dog to bark and alert you to something however if it is someone that belongs there (meter reader, post man, ups, pizza guy etc...) Thank the dog then redirect them elsewhere after greeting the "stranger"


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have had dogs who were quite impressive behind a fence. Were they reliably protective dogs possessing appropriate courage and fight? Not many of them. I never considered behind the fence behavior as too predictive. It is nice they will alert if that is what a person desires though.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Heagler870 said:


> I believe that dogs can tell the difference between good and bad people, threatening or non threatening people, etc.


Absolutely! Dogs will pick up things that people don't. 

I think the OPs dog need more socialization. Sounds like he's going to be one of those barrier aggresive dogs who will bark and growl at everybody walking by minding their own business.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Samba said:


> I have had dogs who were quite impressive behind a fence. Were they reliably protective dogs possessing appropriate courage and fight? Not many of them. I never considered behind the fence behavior as too predictive. It is nice they will alert if that is what a person desires though.


Kinda like how dogs are almost always more aggressive on-leash than off-leash. It's easy to be tough when somebody's holding you back.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I have been on several seizure runs with animal control and the biggest, baddest fence barkers were also the quickest to tuck their tail and run once the fence was breached and people actually entered the yard.

I agree that fence barkers find the behavior self rewarding. They bark, the "threat" goes away. That is the behavior they are conditioned to. Once the "threat" invades their space and the anxiety is increased, they break and retreat.

The dogs that always made me stop and think were the ones that never blustered or made noise at the fence. The dogs that stood their ground, and were quiet about doing it were the tough ones. They made eye contact, got still and took a step or two towards us. They meant it and didn't need to make a bunch of noise.
Sheilah


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Samba said:


> I have had dogs who were quite impressive behind a fence. Were they reliably protective dogs possessing appropriate courage and fight? Not many of them. I never considered behind the fence behavior as too predictive. It is nice they will alert if that is what a person desires though.





sit said:


> I have been on several seizure runs with animal control and the biggest, baddest fence barkers were also the quickest to tuck their tail and run once the fence was breached and people actually entered the yard.


I am surprised it took 3 pages for someone to get to this point. I've seen MANY dogs that looked absolutely ferocious behind a fence. Open the gate and they are not so brave.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

> The dogs that always made me stop and think were the ones that never blustered or made noise at the fence. The dogs that stood their ground, and were quiet about doing it were the tough ones. They made eye contact, got still and took a step or two towards us. They meant it and didn't need to make a bunch of noise.


That was my last dog. 
Alice is a lot more noise, but she still goes forward.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

RazinKain said:


> I have a 6 ft chain link fence with locked gates and 'beware of dog' signs hanging everywhere


FYI - you better find out the laws in your city/county as those signs can actually get you in BIG trouble if your dog indeed ended up biting someone. The courts will use them agaisnt you, claiming you knew your dogs were dangerous and that's why those signs are on your fence.

I do have to agree with someone else, the dog should alert and give a warning but if you are there present, YOU are in control, not the dog. As mentioned before, you better pray your fence is not accidently left open one day and your dog bites someone like the meter guy who was no threat.

As already mentioned, a lot of dogs are very brave behind a fence or in a crate, but when out and actually confronted by the "threat" they run the other way. Seen it many times.

Just a few weeks ago my husband Dennis and I were charged by two big "shepherd" type dogs from a farm while on our walk, Dennis having dealt with aggressive dogs and training dogs for so many years, he knew the minute he turned around to face them, they would run the other way. Sure enough, he turned around yieling at them and the dogs turned around pretty fast.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

My opinion is and always has been as many have echoed here - I like the alert, but they should stop when told/directed to do so. I never stand by and allow them to bark and growl and lunge their heads off.


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## rjThor (Mar 27, 2011)

Well I told you so, so many different assuptions are made of one thread, basically you were just hyped up by your GSD showing you a different side you had wondered if he had it or not, but from reading all the reply's it seems your bubble was busted pretty fast....I told you so...lol..My pup is only 17weeks old, so he's not much of a barker, not yet anyways, but he has started to be more aware of his surroundings and people that are headed in our direction when we are on our nightly walks, His ears get real straight up, his body posture as we walk changes also, I take it it's just instincts in them, and hopefully nobody will read way to much into this message, I'm not saying my 17 week pup is gonna attack or protect me from anyone, all I'm saying Is that my pup is starting to show diff. signs as he Is maturing. Dogs that bark at him thru a fence or come close to us just seem to puzzle him, being that at the dog park all they do Is run around and play n wrestle, I take It that is where the socializing comes into play.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> I am surprised it took 3 pages for someone to get to this point. I've seen MANY dogs that looked absolutely ferocious behind a fence. Open the gate and they are not so brave.


Of course if you have made the wrong choice, it may be too late to change your mind then once you have opened the gate! Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> Well, if he ever actually gets the opportunity to protect me in the future, I hope he doesn't wait until the bad guy stabs me in the neck before he decides it's a 'real threat'. Maybe one day I can afford to send him to ESP training so he can more accurating determine what someone is thinking and therefore 'know' what kind of a threat they are posing. Maybe I'll just put him down now (because he obviously has fear issues and is genetically inferior) and buy a truly stable dog that will not react to anything unless it's told to, and will let any and all degenerates into my home to do as they will.
> 
> Hopefully, one day the mailman or delivery guy won't climb into my 6 ft 'posted' and padlocked backyard fence to deliver the package. I would hate to get sued.


Or "hopefully' someone doesn't leave a gate open!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RazinKain said:


> Sorry for going off on a tangent, just having a bad day. But to answer your question; no formal training but very socialized. The Vet is always complimenting him on his manners and obedience. But, as for allowing the meter man to give Kain treats, that's not gonna happen. I don't want Kain thinking that he should automatically befriend every stranger that happens to walk up because they have goodies for him. I live in the country and I need for my dog to be an effective deterrent, not a welcome mat.


A single dog is really not much of a deterrent to a determined thief - you need at least two.

Almost any good determined thief can manage to take out a single dog if you are not there to back him up.

Have you also poison proofed him - otherwise even less of a deterrent in a bad neighborhood which it seems is what you live in from what you say about how much you need a good dog.

Also one other thing needed for such a dog - "Out". Will your dog reliably stop the bite if you tell him to? BIG added legal liabilities, I would bet if not. Also pretty hard to teach I would also assume.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Also one other thing needed for such a dog - "Out". Will your dog reliably stop the bite if you tell him to? BIG added legal liabilities, I would bet if not. Also pretty hard to teach I would also assume.


I thought you said in another thread that you've trained schutzhund dogs? Wouldn't you be very familiar with teaching an out if you've trained schutzhund?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> I thought you said in another thread that you've trained schutzhund dogs? Wouldn't you be very familiar with teaching an out if you've trained schutzhund?


Nice of you to remember what I said in previous posts! 

As a matter of fact, every dog should be trained an "Out" command, if only for toys and bones and things - any dog that bites should also know "Out" for obvious reasons, don't you think?

I don't know what your comment has to do with what I said to the OP. Just that if you have a dog that will bite (including a ScH dog or a PPD, of course) then you should train him to "OUT".

Are you disagreeing with that?


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Maybe it was that last part you added:


> "Also pretty hard to teach I would also assume."


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> Maybe it was that last part you added:


*"Also pretty hard to teach I would also assume"*

Judging by the number of dogs that I see that don't know it or at least don't do it, seems like a pretty good assumption, don't you think?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

My last dog was ferocious behind the fence but if she was brought right outside she would greet the person with waggin tail and happy face.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> *"Also pretty hard to teach I would also assume"*
> 
> Judging by the number of dogs that I see that don't know it or at least don't do it, seems like a pretty good assumption, don't you think?


The point is that if you have trained schutzhund dogs then you would know how to train the out and what is involved. No assumptions necessary.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I feel bad for the meter guy. I know our electric company requires there to be clear access to the meter so it can be read... and if the meter guy can't get to it they charge us a (ridiculously high) flat rate. Our meter is outside the fence for that reason.

I'm currently trying to work with my dogs so they stop barking after they've alerted me to the potential threat. They are doing well... except Nova who has weak nerves and thinks he needs to continue to bark his fool head off and run the fence. It's difficult because it definitely is a self rewarding behavior. The "strangers" (postman, UPS man, septic guy, meter reader) arrive on his turf, he barks his fool head off, and then they leave. Of course the dog thinks that the reason the "stranger" left is BECAUSE he was barking his fool head off.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> The point is that if you have trained schutzhund dogs then you would know how to train the out and what is involved. No assumptions necessary.


Techie, I am not following what you are trying to say at all.

Are you saying that it is easy to teach an "Out". Not just in ScH but in everyday life with a dog. If so, please publish how you do it so many others can learn. 

If you are asking again if I know how to teach it to my dog, the answer is yes. All of them have always known "Out" with anything that they may take into their doggy little mouths.

If you are blind to everybody doing training except ScH - then just do nothing. 

I really wasn't even referring to ScH training in my long ago comment to the OP with a dog that seemed like he was glad was very defensive of his property and simply was suggesting to him that he should teach his dog to "Out" reliably so he could call his dog off someone that he was biting.

You know, really, not everything is about ScH!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

How hard is that to follow? Making assumptions means you aren't directly familiar with something. If you HAVE trained in schutzhund you would already know how to teach an out and not need to make assumptions about the difficulty of training it, BECAUSE YOU'D KNOW.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

To the grown up six year old who forgot to latch the gate, I think that is a crappy reason to whip a kid. Six year olds are not known to be the most reliable about things, and dogs are the responsibility of adults not kids.

Now, if you were not ALLOWED out of that gate, so you should have never touched it in the first place, that would be a good reason for a good reminder. 

I do not think it is helpful for children to carry around guilt for things they really should not be responsible for into adulthood. If the dog was put down for biting that man, that would have been really hard on a six year old. 

I think parents get so scared sometimes in incidents involving kids that they lash out at them. I remember when a mother was talking to a salesman on the sidewalk and her toddler, toddled between two cars into the path of the busy highway. I was too far away and my tongue was tied, I could only utter Ahk!

The lady turned and snagged her child from under the wheels of the oncoming car and proceeded to beat the child. It was literally a baby. But she was scared to death.


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## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

you should Praise the Meter man for Reading the signs and obeying not too many people read the signs .wouldnt be surprised that your next bill would be an estimate.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> How hard is that to follow? Making assumptions means you aren't directly familiar with something. If you HAVE trained in schutzhund you would already know how to teach an out and not need to make assumptions about the difficulty of training it, BECAUSE YOU'D KNOW.


Lin,

I have to ask because maybe it is the reason you are having so much trouble following my posts. Is English your first language? 
Nothing wrong with it of course, but maybe I should write clearer.

*I will try again* - ScH has got NOTHING to do with my answer. All I said to the OP was that if his dog might bite someone then he should teach it a reliable "OUT" command. And then I said that it evidently is not easy to teach an "Out" command from the number of dogs that don't know the command.

Is that understandable to you? I must apologize if it is still not clear but I don't know how to make it simpler and clearer!

Also I have trained the "Out" command to every one of my dogs so I would guess that I really do know the command and how to teach it.

Also, if you are really as knowledable as someone thinks - how about you posting how to teach the command? That might really help the OP - you remember - the poster who has the dog that barked at some people. OTOH, if you don't feel that you are capable of doing so, then please ignore my suggestion as that is totally understandable, of course.

It is really curious why you are so hung up the ScH thing which had nothing to do with the OP and my original posting - just a dog who barked at strangers and one that I, along with some others, was afraid that he might end up biting someone and end up in legal trouble.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BTW, Lin, if you have taught much dog obedience you would know that it is not an easy command to teach for many owners and for some dogs. So that is something to consider.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> And then I said that it evidently is not easy to teach an "Out" command from the number of dogs that don't know the command.


No, you said you assume out is difficult to teach. Big difference. I understand perfectly, you've changed what you said to attempt to make yourself look better and then attempt ad hominem arguments to distract people of that fact. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing.

I'm not the one that said I didn't understand/could not follow.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

Lin said:


> No, you said you assume out is difficult to teach. Big difference. I understand perfectly, you've changed what you said to attempt to make yourself look better and then attempt ad hominem arguments to distract people of that fact. Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing.
> 
> I'm not the one that said I didn't understand/could not follow.


I agree completely and I would add that I figured it was codmaster that did not use english as a primary language!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> I thought you said in another thread that you've trained schutzhund dogs? Wouldn't you be very familiar with teaching an out if you've trained schutzhund?


_*"Also one other thing needed for such a dog - "Out". Will your dog reliably stop the bite if you tell him to? BIG added legal liabilities, I would bet if not. Also pretty hard to teach I would also assume." *_
_*This is what I originally posted!*_

Your confusing response is above it. Once again, why did you bring ScH into the discussion? ScH had nothing to do with the OP post nor my response to him. Yes I have done some training in ScH and yes, I have trained every one of my numerous GSD's to "Out" on command. So what?

Lin - *what is your problem* - do you not like my postings? Are you totally hung up with ScH?

And once again and I hope more clearly so you may finally understand - I said that teaching an "Out" command - I assumed must be difficult since so few dogs are trained to obey that command. 

Are you disagreeing and saying that all/most dogs know the "Out"? If so, you ought to try to even take a bone out of the mouth of most family pets!

Please NOTICE! Nothing about ScH here nor nothing about whether i know how to train the "out" (I do!) or not.

Try hard not to read anything more into my comment or get really emotional about what I said about the ease or difficulty of teaching the "Out".

I promise you that I really didn't intend anything negative about your beloved ScH training.

I am still looking for your post on *"The ease of teaching the "Out"".*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> I agree completely and I would add that I figured it was codmaster that did not use english as a primary language!


Thanks, TechieDog for the excuse!

BTW, "English" is generally capitalized when used in the above manner! Proper nick names (like Codmaster) should be also. This is true in English, but of course may not be in whatever language you know best.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Lin - *what is your problem* - do you not like my postings? Are you totally hung up with ScH?


My "problem" is I'm not interested in playing your games or taking your bait. I've made my point and there's nothing more to say about it.

For the record, I have never trained in Schutzhund.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Interesting to watch these threads devolve.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Interesting to watch these threads devolve.


 
From the sidelines is often better! Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> My "problem" is I'm not interested in playing your games or taking your bait. I've made my point and there's *nothing more to say* about it.
> 
> *For the record, I have never trained in Schutzhund*.


 
Now I understand! Thank you! And hopefully you are right! Enough is enough on this thread.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Thanks, TechieDog for the excuse!
> 
> BTW, "English" is generally capitalized when used in the above manner! Proper nick names (like Codmaster) should be also. This is true in English, but of course may not be in whatever language you know best.


If English is your primary language then you have no excuse and since your sn is codmaster thats how I used it wiseguy.
My first post here was very clear. Lin called you out and I agreed with her based on your previous posts. If you could not understand that then you have comprehension issues. I am guessing you simply want to be belligerent.

This thread has gone OT enough. I am done. Apologies to the OP.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

TechieDog said:


> I am guessing you simply want to be belligerent.


Exactly, he just wants to try to provoke people into arguing with him.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> If English is your primary language then you have no excuse and since your sn is codmaster thats how I used it wiseguy.
> My first post here was very clear. *Lin called you out *and I agreed with her based on your previous posts. If you could not understand that then you have comprehension issues. I am guessing you simply want to be belligerent.
> 
> This thread has gone OT enough. I am done. Apologies to the OP.


Ha! Ha! I did not realize that Lin was a female.

"called me out"? Didn't realize that, thanks for clearing that up.

Hopefully we are all done with this thread.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Ha! Ha! I did not realize that Lin was a female.


And what does my gender have to do with anything?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

teaching the out;
ball in dogs mouth, tell dog to out, if ball is on string, don't put pressure on the string, but do so on the dogs collar while you are lifting he/she up. Wait dog out....when dog finally gasps for air and outs you mark it and reward with the valued ball! Easy peasy
Then you can transition to anything, as the dog knows the meaning of out and that they will be rewarded for outing.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Reminder: Personal attacks are not allowed on this board and some posters on this thread are getting close to crossing that line. Keep it respectful.

Jamie
Moderator


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> Exactly, he just wants to try to provoke people into arguing with him.


Nope, I made a comment to the original OP way back and some folks jumped all over it simply because I said something about assuming that teaching the "Out" was difficult because so few dogs in my experience knew it.
then some folk got all hot about ScH and my personal experience in it (which of course had nothing to do with my original thought as we were not even talking about anything to do with ScH).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> And what does my gender have to do with anything?


Absolutely nothing to me!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> If English is your primary language then you have no excuse and since your sn is codmaster thats how I used it wiseguy.
> My first post here was very clear. Lin called you out and I agreed with her based on your previous posts. If you could not understand that then you have comprehension issues. I am guessing you simply want to be belligerent.
> 
> This thread has gone OT enough. I am done. Apologies to the OP.


 
Wiseguy? That sounds kind of personal. As does "comprehension issues". 

And, no, I am not trying to be belligerent at all nor trying to make any type of personal issue.

Have a nice day!


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Wiseguy? That sounds kind of personal. As does "comprehension issues".
> 
> And, no, I am not trying to be belligerent at all nor trying to make any type of personal issue.
> 
> Have a nice day!


Correcting my punctuation and questioning my knowledge of English as a language was being wise, hence, wiseguy. If you want to continue then please take it to PM.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TechieDog said:


> Correcting my punctuation and questioning my knowledge of English as a language was being wise, hence, wiseguy. If you want to continue then please take it to PM.


 
"Wiseguy" can be considered a big insult to a certain ethnic group, by the way.

Why not really just drop it?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

curious, what ethnic group?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> curious, what ethnic group?


Italians?


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)




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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, that picture ought to be in with the smileys.


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