# Fear aggressive gsd



## Jd12391 (Jul 4, 2015)

Hi everyone !
I'm new to the forum and I decided to join because I'm having some problems with my 10 month old shepherd, Maverick. We got her when she was a baby from a breeder and she is pure bred. The vet said he thinks that it is in her genes to be nervous and timid. Were working with her constantly but nothing seems to really be helping. If anyone at all comes to the front door she lunges and barks uncontrollably. If we let them in she continues... She hasn't bitten anyone but I wouldn't put it past her. She also runs full speed to the fence in the back when my neighbors have their two younger kids playing. She barks forever at them and we can never get her to pay attention to us, to distract her and remove her from the situation. She also barks at just the slightest noise or sight of people when she's outside. She does well on walks although she hasn't always. Maverick gets nervous and often wants to turn around when she sees people but we don't let her turn around anymore we just try to get her mind off of it. We got in contact with a behavioralist and he came to the house to see her. He recommended we use a shock collar for when she is lunging at the door, fence, and people. He used it and it worked but the first shock she let out a horrible screech. It's not using the shock for punishment but to get her out of the frenzy and tell her good girl while she is quiet. We did this in April and we've had the collar ever since but it is still sitting in the box. Her favorite place to lay is at the front door and we don't want to ruin that for her, or make her more scared and fearful by using the collar. Does anyone have other suggestions or thoughts about the collar. She is not treat motivated at allll, she spits them right out when she is nervous or swallows them hole. If anyone can suggest something that would be great. 

Thank you all!! 
Jenn


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have suggestions but you probably won't like them.

Manage her behavior. Crate her when people come over. At least until she's calm enough to behave. Make guests ignore her until she is behaving in an appropriate manner.
Keep a drag line on her when she's outside so that if her behavior gets out of hand you can remove her. 
I make Shadow sit and calmly watch people going about their business. 
Understand that if this is genetic your dog may never be more then she is, or with a lot of work on your part she may learn to ignore. 
Truly fear aggressive dogs, in my experience, come down to management.
She may just be a snotty teenager at this phase but I would recommend a qualified behaviorist who is experienced with the breed.
And never forget that it's your job to make sure that she never, ever gets the chance to bite.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That 'behaviorist' was an idiot. You do NOT use an e-collar for aggression and you don't set it high enough to make them let out a horrible screech. Do not use the collar again until someone who knows how to use it shows you.

You need a good hands on trainer. Where are you located so someone can suggest someone to you.


----------



## Jd12391 (Jul 4, 2015)

I'm located in monmouth county New Jersey if anyone knows of any good trainers. We really don't want to use the shock collar on her. I love her I don't want to hurt her or make her more fearful of anything. I'm waiting to hear back from a trainer on Monday about helping her, I told them about the collar too. I'll see what she says as well. She unfortunately is not crate trained, my parents don't believe in it. I'm moving out in a couple months with maverick and I want to get her a crate just to teach her it's a safe place. We've considered a muzzle too, and just train her to love it and be used to it.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use an e-collar and love it. But what that trainer did was not proper at all. I think her behavior needs a correction but I don't think that was the way to go about it.

Crate training is easy. Get a DVD called Crate Games. 

Monmouth County NJ.....anyone have any trainers they can recommend?


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I agree with everything Sabis mom and Jax wrote.
We rescued our former GSD, Jake when he was 2, he passed away last May. He was 13.
He was horribly abused and had some aggressive tendencies. We were referred to a trainer who specialized in GSDs and aggression. He told us that it was unlikely that Jake's temperament would change but that he was definitely a keeper. 
That trainer really saw the good in Jake. 
And he basically taught us how to manage an aggressive dog.

Jake could never be off leash. He was kept on a long line when playing fetch or frisbee, even when swimming, he wore a floating long.

Jake was a great family dog and did some amazing things, but could not be trusted off leash. Which was sad but not a huge issue.
He was well worth keeping.

I know 1st hand how upsetting it is to have an aggressive dog. 
If you find the right trainer/behaviorist you'll learn how to manage your pup.
If you feel comfortable, give your location and someone on this forum will help you find someone to help.
Good luck and take care.
Ps. Jake and I eventually joined training classes with other dogs.
And that helped. Our trainer was the instructor.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are going through this. 

Your girl seems to have some serious issues, and fixing her is not going to be easy. Actually, fixing her may not be possible. But, you may be able to improve things quite a bit by management, training, leadership, schedule, building her confidence, and then careful socialization. 

You do need a good trainer that has experience with the breed and experience with dogs that are shy or have weak nerves. It is hard to recognize a good trainer. The vet may have good suggestions, and they may not. The dude on the street with a well-behaved dog might have a decent trainer, but the trainer might be fine with dogs that do not have issues, so you need to read up on the problem so you can better recognize a trainer. Serious corrections, like the e-collar approach, are likely to set you back or cover up the symptoms of the dog's issue without changing the problem. Which means the barking and lunging can be stopped or masked, but the dog, when pressed will go straight to the next level, without warnings, and then you have a seriously dangerous dog. Help for Your Shy Dog is a good book. Other trainer behaviorist authors who are good are Jan Fennel, Susan Clothier, John Lee, and others. Reading up on various training approaches will help you when the trainer you pick is using them. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/help-for-your-shy-dog-deborah-wood/1111765433?ean=9781630261061&sourceid=Q000000633&cm_mmc=GooglePLA-_-Book_Under5-_-Q000000633-_-9781630261061&st=SEM&sid=BNB_DRS_Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=S439&k_clickid=3x439&kpid=9781630261061

The first thing I would do with this dog, is to reset. I would not try to train right away. I would go on a vacation from training and asking anything of the dog, save pottying outside and that would be on leash. I would not give this dog the opportunity to bark at the fence toward the little ones. I would feed the dog, and provide water, and take the dog out to potty for two weeks, while I read up on the various trainers and on Nothing in Life is Free. 

Nothing In Life is Free (NILIF) is a leadership style for people who do not have that aspect down. It help dogs with an attitude lose the attitude by providing structure and expectations of behavior, rewards and in some instances corrections. But mostly it is a method of teaching people how to provide leadership that a dog craves.

A scared dog is in a bad place. They sometimes appear stubborn because they shut down and can't do what you ask them to do even if they know the command. They are not stubborn. We need to provide for them a structure in which they can function. By being calm, consistent, predictable, we can earn the trust of the dog, so that the dog becomes less unsettled and looks to us when something is new or different. At that point, we can relax more, and then the dog senses that and relaxes even more. And good things happen. But we have to decide on a leadership style and stick with it. This is your every day interacting with the dog, how you communicate with her, what she must do before a treat or pets, what behaviors are ignored, what behaviors are rewarded, and what behaviors are not tolerated. We have to learn not to give multiple commands, and to always follow through. This does not mean punishing the dog for failing to complete something, but rather to help the dog complete a task rather than allowing the dog to do it part way or not at all. We praise when the dog completes the task whether we helped her or not. She is learning that she must do some things, and must do them all the way. She is also learning that when she does, you give her your happy face, happy words, maybe a treat. 

Leadership is great, but management is very important. At this stage you need to anticipate the things that will set your girl off and manage her environment so that she has the distance she needs from these things. When she has built a solid bond of trust in you, through training, confidence building, and leadership, then you can start reducing the distance between her and things that might be scary, always gearing your progress on her pace. Remember, there is no hurry. It is the journey, and getting this stuff right is more important than getting from here to there in three months.

Confidence building is something that you can work on through leadership and training. Usually you want fun stuff, train tricks or work on agility with her, so she uses her whole body, gets lots of treats and praise, accomplishes things, and is having fun with it. Not long sessions, a little at a time. Stop when she still wants more. Set her up to succeed and then praise her for it. 

Sorry, I'm a bit wordy, but it's not an easy thing to do. If you persevere, you can have an awesome dog that you will appreciate and love all the more for the work that you have accomplished. You will accept and love her for whom she is, at the same time you will learn how to best manage her so that most of the time, she is in an acceptable place even with less than stellar nerves. 

Good luck with your puppy.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jd12391 said:


> I'm located in monmouth county New Jersey if anyone knows of any good trainers. We really don't want to use the shock collar on her. I love her I don't want to hurt her or make her more fearful of anything. I'm waiting to hear back from a trainer on Monday about helping her, I told them about the collar too. I'll see what she says as well. She unfortunately is not crate trained, my parents don't believe in it. I'm moving out in a couple months with maverick and I want to get her a crate just to teach her it's a safe place. We've considered a muzzle too, and just train her to love it and be used to it.


 Shadow is muzzled at all times when off my property, she now views it as just something she puts on at the door.

She loves her crate, and goes to it when the world is just to scary on her own.

We keep her in the house when the neighbors are active, early mornings and nights are prime time for us. 

I have a dog run beside the house, for those potty breaks during the day.

She is not allowed free run of the house. The last thing I need is a spooked dog that will bite escaping out an open door.

I make a huge effort to ensure that my fearful dog is fulfilled and happy in our little world, and I never, ever let my guard down. 

Now, Shadow is social, friendly and good natured with anyone, once they are in the yard or house. That helps. But my experience, and I am not an expert is that the key to fearful, or aggressive dogs is control. They thrive under strict structure. They take comfort in routine.

All that said, your girl is still very young, and I am leaning more toward she's testing boundaries, has been spoiled and is amusing herself by scaring the crap out of others, or is just way over excited and not being properly directed.
And that shriek with the e collar, unless you had it way to high, was likely a drama queen reaction to being startled out of her tantrum.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Jd, My pup is also 10 m0nths and he continually tests his limits. I think Sabis has a point about your pup's age and her behavior maybe being related to her young age.

You might try enrolling in a basic obedience class. But be sure and let the trainer know beforehand that your pup can be aggressive. 

Finn is in his 2nd round of obedience training. There are a couple of aggressive dogs in his class, they are older than your pup. 
The trainer will not turn any dog away due to behavior. 
He just assigns a member of his staff to assist the owner with the dog.
I've seen those dogs and owners do very well after a few classes. I think it might be because the owner learns to handle their dog and learns how to make appropriate corrections using the leash.

Also. the trainer recommended the H Srenger collar for Finn. I use it when walking him and for training. It's been a good training tool for my pup.


----------



## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I could have written the same post myself, but with a 3yr old rescue. She is the same way. I've found what works for me (while waiting for some medical issues to be handled before getting her into a trainer) is this (but please keep in mind I am a novice to fear aggressive dogs that react this way):

Have you tried small pieces of cooked chicken in place of treats? Most dogs will take chicken, or freeze dried liver in place of treats. Or does he have a toy that he really loves? With mine, no one could come inside my home without the same behaviour yours displays. But she is VERY motivated by food. So I leave a bag of treats out (replace with chicken or liver if that does interest him, or a few favorite toys if that is his thing) when I know someone is coming over. They are instructed NOT to look at, touch, or speak to Lyka. I leash her for safety, and have them come in, slowly walk towards the couch, while throwing treats at Lyka's feet. She will continue the barking, they continue to throw treats. Sometimes it takes 30 seconds, sometimes a few minutes, depending on whether the person coming in is male or female. After that, she is calm, and can happily lay at my feet relaxed while I enjoy time with my guests. My nieces can now come in and out with nary a bark. People who come over less often still need to go the treat route, but she seems to be getting better and better each time a visitor comes over. It's teaching her that when people come in my home, they bring good things she likes, so hopefully she will begin to see people as being good. That's the theory anyway, and seems to be working well for us!

With her walks, she improves more each time. It started with her pulling and lunging constantly at anything in sight, especially people and other animals. But moving cars, bikes, or leaves would get a reaction out of her. Now, she walks at my side, and while she is still reactive if people are near, she doesn't even notice people on the other side of the street, and other dogs don't interest her anymore. I just maintain a brisk pace (I've found the slower I walk, the more interested she becomes in everything around her, which causes her to be more reactive) and if someone is on the same side of the street approaching us, I make a wide curve around them. Lyka is threatened by anyone approaching her directly (or scared, probably a mix of both) and that is her way of handling it. If I allow her space and make a curve around the person, she may give a small bark, but is easily distracted and can refocus back onto me. Just give her space and room from whatever is approaching, it will allow her to feel safer. I won't continue to allow the wide curve, it gets smaller each walk, and she seems to be adjusting well to less distance, just slowly. 

Like I said, I have ZERO professional experience, and have tried many different things, this is just what has worked for Lyka and I. I also don't want to use an e-collar, I don't feel like it would help the situation, it will just cause another fear. I could be wrong, just my feelings. So I hunted around, did some research, and finally just went with my gut, and she is making vast improvements when it comes to fear of people/animals.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> I also don't want to use an e-collar, I don't feel like it would help the situation, it will just cause another fear.


I keep seeing this in this thread. E-collars are not supposed to fry a dog. They are supposed to be used on low level. You have to introduce it in a way that the dog understands the stim means something. I test the level I use on my fingers every time before I put it on Seger.

For instance, I use it in tracking. He understands that the light pop forward on the prong means to start. He understands there will be food when he feels that pop. So then I introduced the electric with a stim equivalent to the light pop at the start of the track. Stim now equals food. 

Just starting it in obedience with heeling to get the toy out of the picture. My hand is up with the toy, drop my hand, bring it back and stim stim while he's coming up to get the toy. Stim now equals toy.

It's how you introduce it so that they understand that stim means something and that stim is associated with something good.

If you just slap it on a dog without ever having taught them anything about it and fire them, then yes it will make things worse. If you use it appropriately, it's a great tool. 

I'm not telling anyone to use it or want to argue the usual e-collar debate. Just wanted to give you a better understanding of how it should be used.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They have applications past low level stim. Using them as positive punishment at higher levels to eliminate behaviors you no longer wish to see is one of them.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

To the OP, do what your behaviorist did and showed you and stick with it instead of looking for advice on something like this from a bunch of people on the Internet that haven't seen your dog.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Baillif said:


> To the OP, do what your behaviorist did and showed you and stick with it instead of looking for advice on something like this from a bunch of people on the Internet that haven't seen your dog.


I do not agree with that quoted statement.



Findlay said:


> Jd, My pup is also 10 m0nths and he continually tests his limits. I think Sabis has a point about your pup's age and her behavior maybe being related to her young age.
> 
> You might try enrolling in a basic obedience class. But be sure and let the trainer know beforehand that your pup can be aggressive.
> 
> ...


That's more the mindset I agree with :thumbup:

This is a 10 m old puppy that has (unintentionally) been allowed to get out of control. 

MANAGEMENT would be a huge help. 

If my dog runs to the fence to bark crazily at the fence and won't listen. Then that means my dog no longer is loose in the back yard and allowed to run to that darn fence. EASY IMMEDIATE 100% fix. Dog in the yard, I am in the yard and that dog is on leash so it 'has' to listen and obey.

People come to the door? Calmly leash the dog and remove it to a crate/otherside of the house/where ever.

When we know the things that set our dogs off it's a great advantage! Because we can prepare, have a plan and PREVENT that situation while working on a calm organized training schedule to TEACH our dog what we really want.

I love that my dogs bark, but from the second those pups come into my house, they know they are only allowed to bark a few times then I AM COMING AND WILL TAKE CONTROL. It's not my dog's 'job' to become hysterical and ignore me. It's MY job to react immediately and teach my dog that everything is fine, I am in control and I will deal with the situation so they can chill (and not feel I have given up the safety of the house yard to a puppy who is COMPLETELY not prepared to cope with that job).

If you pup is fearful, then the #1 thing you need to teach is confidence in YOU (so they look to you knowing you are in charge rather then knowing they are the only ones in charge and only thing they know to do is react and PANIC to keep the scary away...). POSITIVE leadership for such a young dog and starting slowly in safe, quieter areas initially. 

Have you got a good start on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ssive-leash-i-cant-control-reactive-dogs.html

Have you seen this trainer? Warwick, NY, Orange County Dog Training - Dog sports, Obedience Training, Clicker Training


----------

