# So You Think You Want a High Drive Puppy



## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

the title says it all. the rest it's up to you.


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## GSDOWNED (Mar 16, 2010)

Wow and I thought Mia had drive when she was this age. LOL!


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I laughed the entire time! So cute! I didn't have Apollo when he was a puppy but it seems like he would have been that hyper because he is that hyper now. He is non stop going ALL DAY until I go to bed. Even after our long walks he may poop out for 15 to 20 minutes tops and he's back at it.


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## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

Lol... Otto is like this... Enzo not so much. My husband jokes that he has two kids, a wife and one dog with ADHD. Him and Enzo are the only normal ones.... Lol!


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## bruiser (Feb 14, 2011)

Whoa...that's Bruiser but he would have that pen knocked over in 5 minutes


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

drive ? or hyper? There was a whole lot of tail chomping while the pup was in the cardboard box and then more catch the tail outside.
I like relentless drive and determination , but I can not stand a hyper dog. They are not one and the same.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

LOL my daughter wants to watch it again becuase that little maligator reminds us of Otto when he was little.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

carmspack said:


> drive ? or hyper? There was a whole lot of tail chomping while the pup was in the cardboard box and then more catch the tail outside.
> I like relentless drive and determination , but I can not stand a hyper dog. They are not one and the same.


Strongly agree with this. Drive needs to be paired with an off switch and an ability to calm down.

Although I guess it's possible that pup's owner might be under-exercising him.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That pup in the video is Cindy's(from her breeding, I believe). 
Malinois are that way, and I'm sure they made the video to show that they aren't the breed for just anyone. 
I also agree the GSD should be balanced and not a crazy hyper destructive thing. 
Tail chasing is a dangerous habit, I remember Karlo would do it at that age when he was overtired. I'd redirect him immediately and he only did it a couple of times. He was never overly hyper however, and still has a great off switch!


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> That pup in the video is Cindy's(from her breeding, I believe).
> Malinois are that way, and I'm sure they made the video to show that they aren't the breed for just anyone.
> I also agree the GSD should be balanced and not a crazy hyper destructive thing.
> Tail chasing is a dangerous habit, I remember Karlo would do it at that age when he was overtired. I'd redirect him immediately and he only did it a couple of times. He was never overly hyper however, and still has a great off switch!


 
why is tail chasing a dangerous habit?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

actually I watched some of the other vids of Endy growing up (she came from Michael Ellis),,and they are great to watch,,very focused and doing nice obed training.

Her 'older' vids, she isn't nearly as 'hyper', but again she was 'doing' something..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

JPF said:


> why is tail chasing a dangerous habit?


It is a sign of OCD and a very hard habit to break. Some dogs need to have their tails amputated because they damage them. Like laser pointers, OCD behavior begins and it is very hard to break.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

That was definitely Gunnar at that age (and far beyond), and Kaija & Gunner would be that even now, if they didn't get as much physical & mental exercise as they do. Even when the "hyper" is exercised out of them, they still have plenty of drive. Rather than attempting to suppress that drive (& frustrating them AND myself), I give them jobs that _require_ it. I don't really need a high drive dog, but I can handle having one (or two). That's probably why most of my "used" dogs ended up with me, though.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

I want to find a low drive GSD... puppy LOL


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Polistes said:


> I want to find a low drive GSD... puppy LOL


Here ya go:


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> It is a sign of OCD and a very hard habit to break. Some dogs need to have their tails amputated because they damage them. Like laser pointers, OCD behavior begins and it is very hard to break.


That was one of my thoughts when I saw all the tail chasing. 

Definitely a cute pup and a funny video to watch but I wouldn't want a dog with that much...drive/energy. 

Xander can settle down when he's inside - thankfully. I knew when I got him I didn't want a super high drive dog - more than anything I wanted a great family pet.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> That pup in the video is Cindy's(from her breeding, I believe).
> Malinois are that way, and I'm sure they made the video to show that they aren't the breed for just anyone.
> I also agree the GSD should be balanced and not a crazy hyper destructive thing.
> Tail chasing is a dangerous habit, I remember Karlo would do it at that age when he was overtired. I'd redirect him immediately and he only did it a couple of times. He was never overly hyper however, and still has a great off switch!


I agree with everything you've written, including why they likely made the video. But not all Mals are that way. A well bred high drive one would probably be similar to the one in the video, but my mal is not like that at all. Thankfully.


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Here ya go:


Yay! I already got a wolf and coyote  Seriously I know there are not as active GSDs out there, I just got to find it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't look for a low drive , that is not right either, look for a balanced dog with the ability to calm down.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Polistes (Feb 14, 2011)

Balance is good


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mals have much more energy than a GSD....I think Endy was probably trying to get out much needed energy and is not the same way at maturity. Yet the breed does need to have an owner that knows this and not just any owner is right for them. Same goes for the dutchies, they need to get out their energy! 
Did you get your Mal as a young pup Rerun?


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

carmspack said:


> don't look for a low drive , that is not right either, look for a balanced dog with the ability to calm down.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


That's why I love the two I have now: They both came with "off" switches. I can imagine their off switches not working right, though, if I expected them to be full-time couch potatoes & never did any activities with them. 

Gunnar didn't have an "off" switch. He was a handful nearly his whole life, even for me, and I have ADHD! Fortunately he was very good natured, adorable & funny. Those last two probably saved his life more than once.


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## Marytess (Oct 25, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *Emoore*
> _Here ya go:
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO:spittingcoffee::rofl:


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## beaderdog (Dec 23, 2010)

Reminds me of my dear late Dobie Ilsa when she was a puppy. We didn't use an exercise pen, we used hypervigilance & a whole lot of walking/running/fetching/training. She was a wonderful dog, one of the best ever. But she'd have been a nightmare for an inexperienced owner. _Excellent_ message in the video - high-drive puppies are not for the faint of heart, or anyone not willing to put 125% of themselves into rasing him/her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

tail chasing - OCD -- can become a stress releaser , so when the dog is working and getting overloaded it will snap and chase its tail. Seen this at one of the sport clubs, dog would look between the decoy and its tail , then refocus . Tail was eventually chopped , but the wiring is still in the brain, much like people that have amputations still feeling their missing limb. 

xxxxxxx

not all malinois are like this -- was in close working contact with several in the french ring clubs.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDOWNED (Mar 16, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> It is a sign of OCD and a very hard habit to break. Some dogs need to have their tails amputated because they damage them. Like laser pointers, OCD behavior begins and it is very hard to break.


My husband works with someone who had a dog that was a tail chaser. The dog did so much damage to it's tail that it did have to be amputated. Problem fixed? Nope, the dog then started tearing up it's own front paw which had to be amputated as well.

Mia tried being a tail chaser when she was a pup. We quickly redirected and corrected her. Thankfully, she has no problems with tail chasing.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Hyper and Drive - when I am playing fetch with my husband's Lab and my GSD puppy I can see the difference. The Lab gets so hyper and crazy that he stops thinking. The puppy loves to fetch but she doesn't get hyper so, consequently, she knows where her ball is and his ball too - at all times, even in the dark. 

I have two balls going because she is so fast, so they each have their own. The Lab loses track of his ball when he becomes "lost in craze" combined with the confusion of my throwing a ball for her and a ball for him. The pup runs out, gets her ball, sprints to his ball and stands there to show him where it is. She jumps back at the last minute to get out of his way. It's a riot to watch! But I have to say, hyper stupidity drives me nuts!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Mals have much more energy than a GSD....I think Endy was probably trying to get out much needed energy and is not the same way at maturity. Yet the breed does need to have an owner that knows this and not just any owner is right for them. Same goes for the dutchies, they need to get out their energy!
> Did you get your Mal as a young pup Rerun?


Yes, he was 10 wks old. I found, with mine at least, that although he has more energy, I was able to help his channel it much better. He was very willing to play with a treat ball, etc . I actually used many of the leerburg videos (the above one included) from day one with him. He had an xpen in our dining room, which is right off the kitchen and living room, and was in the xpen or tethered while in the house. I did not have any of the problems everyone warns of with mals. He wasn't and never has been nippy, he hasn't chewed or destroyed anything of ours, he is VERY smart and very eager to please.

If he had not has such intense daily training and socialization from the day we got him, I firmly believe he would've turned out to be a real mess. They are definitely not a breed for everyone. People getting one need to know what they're getting and be prepared for it.

His only issue is weak nerve, not any fear aggressiveness or reactiveness. If I was looking for a sport dog, this would've been a big problem, but when we went to look at him we knew from the getgo that he had weak nerves, so we took him on knowing it 100%.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Maybe I am just used to active puppies.  But I don't remember him being quite that nutty.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Tail chasing is a dangerous habit, I remember Karlo would do it at that age when he was overtired. I'd redirect him immediately and he only did it a couple of times. He was never overly hyper however, and still has a great off switch!


Definitely agree with this one. GSD's are really prone to OCD behaviors so you have to be careful what you allow. I refuse to allow hubby or anyone else to play with Jinx using lazer pointers or things she "can't catch" she has tried tail chasing a few times and always quickly redirected she only tried it for 2 days and haven't had an issue since. Also things like cratching under blankets and how cute it is watching them pounce. Well when we stopped scratching and she kept going crazy even with us calling her name and trying to side track her with no luck we instantly quit playing that game and had to lift her off the bed and crate her for a few minutes to calm down. Definitely have to be careful with them while it might be cute it could be really bad for them.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Zoe knocked her xpen over 100 times a day before I canned it. She would literally wait for me to leave the room and silently dump it over before I could get up the stairs. Tethering lead to her chewing 2 leashes in half so we resorted to a TON of exercise for short periods 6-10 times a day. We'd go for a 20 minute run, come back and do 5-10 minutes of OB, and then crate her for an hour or so while we did chores and just rested....there wasn't a lot of rest back then though,lol However, she never carried on for 2 straight hours unless we were out playing fetch and then she never tired. Inside when she gets a little zoomie we go play and then she calms down when we get home quite quickly- definite off switch!!


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

carmspack said:


> drive ? or hyper? There was a whole lot of tail chomping while the pup was in the cardboard box and then more catch the tail outside.
> I like relentless drive and determination , but I can not stand a hyper dog. They are not one and the same.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
Can you describe how to understand the difference between the two.


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

carmspack said:


> don't look for a low drive , that is not right either, look for a balanced dog with the ability to calm down.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


 
Hi CS

Just had a look at your site, your Dogs are truly beautiful.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

Love that video, great example of high drive puppies. also the reason that toys are necessary, and back yards. Typical Malinois


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

suze said:


> Can you describe how to understand the difference between the two.


I'm not Carmen and I'm not a breeder, but I'll try to describe how I see it. 

The difference is that a high-drive dog has channeled, focused intensity. It's a dog that needs and wants a job, but isn't necessarily hyper. A high-drive dog who doesn't get enough exercise or mental stimulation or doesn't have a job can become a neurotic tail-chaser, but given enough training and exercise and a job to do, even the highest-drive dog can settle down in the house when it's time to settle.

A hyper dog has a much harder time settling. He's in perpetual motion because he just can't contain himself. A lot of people think they have a high-drive dog when they really just have a hyper one. He can't calm down and might have a hard time focusing.

High drive is the kid in Harvard law school. Hyper is the the kid who can't seem to calm down and sit still.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> GSD's are really prone to OCD behaviors so you have to be careful what you allow.





> A high-drive dog who doesn't get enough exercise or mental stimulation or doesn't have a job can become a neurotic tail-chaser..........


I disagree with both of these statements. GSD of sound mind are NOT prone to OCD behaviors and even when bored, I have never had a high drive dog develop OCD behaviors like tail chasing. I do agree that if you see your young dog starting any of these behaviors try to find a way to redirect and stop them. In horses OCD behaviors like wind sucking/cribbing and savaging (would be similar to tail chasing) have been shown to actually release endorphins in the brain giving the animal a sense of euphoria that can be as addictive as drugs. I wouldn't doubt the same is true in dogs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> A high-drive dog who doesn't get enough exercise or mental stimulation or doesn't have a job can become a neurotic tail-chaser,





lhczth said:


> I disagree with both of these statements. GSD of sound mind are NOT prone to OCD behaviors and even when bored,


Again I'm coming from a different direction from most of you, but the reason I say this is that I've seen GSDs that have been in a cage in a shelter for a few weeks develop neurotic tail-chasing or paw-chewing behaviors that completely disappear once they're in a home where they're not locked in a cage and are able to get exercise and training.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

My dog is the epitome of a neurotic tail chaser. I'm his 3rd owner and he's not even 2 year old. The lady I got him from said the guy that she got him from kept him in an apartment all day and she kept him on a lmrun line. He has a docked tail bunhe can still lick it. Chases it all the time even though he gets tons of exercise and plenty of mental stimulation/training. He never chases his tail during those times. I also have old roommates which I visit frequently and they have 3 dogs. He never chases his tail when he is with them because they are always playing.


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I'm not Carmen and I'm not a breeder, but I'll try to describe how I see it.
> 
> The difference is that a high-drive dog has channeled, focused intensity. It's a dog that needs and wants a job, but isn't necessarily hyper. A high-drive dog who doesn't get enough exercise or mental stimulation or doesn't have a job can become a neurotic tail-chaser, but given enough training and exercise and a job to do, even the highest-drive dog can settle down in the house when it's time to settle.
> 
> ...


What about a hyper dog that when during training focuses like a pro? That is Apollo, my tail chaser. When we do training it's like a totally different dog. He is focused 100 percent. Last night I taught both dogs a new trick. "holding an item and throwing it away" and Apollo grasped it sooooo much quicker than Riley, and Riley is the calm laid back one. Apollo usually learns way faster than Riley.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> Love that video, great example of high drive puppies. also the reason that toys are necessary, and back yards. Typical Malinois


I am wondering what your actual hands on experience with malinois is?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Right off the bat it has to be acknowledged that a high drive dog can be an active dog , and ideally have that off switch. So activity by itself is not a guage .
There is a difference between an active high drive dog and an active hyper dog.

A dog high in drive is easy to teach/train because the desire (drive) is present and does not need to be manufactured. The drive is then promoted to be delivered in a specific format. Example a dog with a high drive to hunt and search is the basic foundation for a multitude of applications useful for our use. That high hunt search drive can be promoted and intensified , then dedicated to a specific scent and indication when found. That includes the scents used in the making of explosives, - passive indication , narcotics - active indication , missing persons SAR , Human Remains, arson, new use bed bugs , foods and insects, tobacco (contraband) - customs agency at borders and airports , even species of fish (natural resources/games officers). 
The high drive makes it easy to teach the concept , have a built in reward system and very importantly allows the animal to work for prolonged periods of time without loosing interest , day in and day out , when an animal that does not have that internal drive will crash because the job is tedious and boring.

High drive in herding . Go back and have a look at that great video of Kessy Waldwinkel , running back and forth , keen on her job and focused . She probably puts in 15 to 20 miles . She did not need much handler stimulation or input to do the job.

High drive in protection -- there is a real committment by the dog to hang in there no matter how tough things get . 

In all cases no matter what else is going on in the environment the dog will stay true to his task and not be distracted. 

The hyper dog has a difficult time in filtering environmental stimulus and tends to get distracted by them. They are too easily stimulated. There is an excessive amount of motion , running around. There is a repitition of behaviour. Lie down , get up, move around a bit , lie down , get up -- restless. In the video the little malionois pup jumped in and out of the box , ran a circle , pushed the box, in and out of the box, lay in the box started chasing his tail in the box - playing with it , looking away , looking back at the tail , looking away, back to the tail, grabbing the tail, out of the box , push the box , look at tail , grab tail , circle , back to box. There were lots of other toys in the x pen . If he were focused on the box then he would have taken that box and beaten it up , chewed it , shreded it -- or stayed with one toy mouthing it . He was just all over the place. His attention span was low.

Remember the repetitive nature - more later. 

If this mal pup belongs to a forum member please understand that I am only using the behaviour evident on the video to explain what the behaviour is .

The hyper dog will start off in an exercise and then loose his thread of what he was doing , easily drift off by some distraction . 
There is a nervousness to them , a fidgety aspect. I think since they are so finely tuned to extraneous stimuli that they are more reactive , more reactive to stress and tension . 
When the stress and tension builds and there is no inner release the dog self medicates , like the wind sucking / cribbing horses . To release endorphins the dog may chew on his tail, self traumatize - injure himself, walk in circles endlessly, repeat a pattern , bark endlessly . 
The dog seems to be hyper aware and hyper responsive. The dog has just settled on his doggy bed and someone walks in front of the house on the sidewalk. Of course the hyper dog has to fly off the bed to the window to see what is going on .

I mentioned the dog in sch h sport who when doing the bark and hold would pause and look to its tail , then back to the decoy. This was a tension relief. Was the dog good on the bite. Oh yes it was , but had difficulty outing . 

There are clinical indications as well in heart beat , adrenal output , stress based immune and health problems , accelerated aging. 

Excercise is very important , but that does not change the focus deficit . 
Diet is very important , good high quaility high levels of protein will provide a stabilizing satisfaction. A diet high in corn , grains, carbs will stimulate and add to the hyper energy.

was that of help?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> If this mal pup belongs to a forum member please understand that I am only using the behaviour evident on the video to explain what the behaviour is .


That dog in the video is older now, and belongs to Leerburgs wife (ex wife?)


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Carmen, is object fixation-- obsession with a ball or tug or other object-- a sign of high drive? I saw this a lot with my Cashdog and am starting to see it showing up strongly in Kopper.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Emoore, I guess the answer would be -- that depends --. Conditional because is the dog fixated on the object when it sees it , for a few minutes, if it were difficult to find would the dog apply itself and keep looking until successful , or would it poop out after a cursory check , or after a few minutes - okay I've looked , I'm done.
Would the dog have the same drive for the object if roadblocks were put in its way, temptations, conditions, environments that are hostile.
If the dog has a fixation for the kong for example in your backyard would that same power of drive still be there if you took the dog to a construction site rubble pile with trucks beep beeping and other stimulation . 
The dog with the drive will plow right throw and be determined to get it.

quickee answer
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and part two
would the dog do it over and over and over , no matter if hot or cold or wet or tired .
The herding dog has to have a drive that will sustain it .
The search dog has to have a drive that will sustain it.
Service dogs with multiple calls all day long have to have the nerves and drives to sustain it. 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

Carmen, that was an excellent explanation of high drive vs. hyperactivity. Thank you for posting it! May I copy it & send it to two of my friends who are trainers & have herding breed dogs themselves? (With full credit given to you, of course.) You really should have that posted on your website somewhere!

Kaija (mostly GSD) & Gunner (English Shepherd) are high drive & have a LOT of energy, but I don't consider them hyper. They're very focused and determined, but also very biddable; an absolute breeze to train. They also have functioning "off" switches. Kaija had some neurotic behaviours (paw chewing, tail biting, excessive barking, extreme clinginess) when she arrived. I never addressed the behaviours directly, but they stopped once she settled in & her life finally became stable, safe & predictable. She had changed homes FOUR TIMES before she adopted me, and she wasn't even a year old! The behaviours showed up again shortly after Gunnar died (she took his loss pretty hard), then disappeared when we got Gunner. 

Gunnar (Lab mix) was hyper & definitely had a mind of his own. He was a challenge to train, though he was highly intelligent. He turned out to be an awesome dog in spite of himself.... but I always had to keep one eye & one ear on him because of his insatiable curiosity & tendency to experiment. The dog was willing to try anything, sometimes with disastrous results. (Ouch, I still miss the dear little demon/angel!) Gunnar didn't grow an "off" switch until he was about eight years old. (He remained energetic, but finally in control of his energy, for the next five years-- though I did have to reprimand him for launching himself off the sofa shortly before his thirteenth birthday.) He had a very looooooooooong puppyhood! I blame most of my grey hairs on him.

btw, I just checked out your website.... NO WAY! Shepherds that HERD SHEEP??!? What kind of dogs are you growing up there in Ontario, anyway??


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

One training technique that's _more_ difficult with a high drive dog: Distraction & redirection. It's obviously much easier to distract a hyper, distractible dog than a highly focused one. A high drive dog that's also highly biddable can be redirected & taught that the focus object is off limits, though. (Argh, I know what I'm trying to say, but I'm having trouble saying it clearly! Translation, please? :crazy: )


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm not Carmen and I'm not a breeder, but I'll try to describe how I see it.
> 
> The difference is that a high-drive dog has channeled, focused intensity. It's a dog that needs and wants a job, but isn't necessarily hyper. A high-drive dog who doesn't get enough exercise or mental stimulation or doesn't have a job can become a neurotic tail-chaser, but given enough training and exercise and a job to do, even the highest-drive dog can settle down in the house when it's time to settle.
> 
> ...


Thanks Enmore for your really good description, sometimes with some Dogs its a bit blurry splitting it, but that was a great easy to get description.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dogaroo of course you can use the material . Be my quest. 

Rethink -- quoting Dogaroo "one training technique that's more difficult with a high drive dog: Distraction and redirection. It's obviously much easier to distract a hyper, distractable dog than a highly focused one "


Look back to the video of the dog herding , Kessy. She is dutifully running the border . Totally dedicated to the job. Focused. At one point one person does a cluck cluck and redirects the dog. The noise was barely noticeable , yet the dog responded.

Now if that same dog were hectic and hyper , what are the chances the request for a redirection would have been noticed.

How would you go to that x pen with the hyper tail chasing malinois and redirect it . Very very difficult because you would be competing with too many other stimuli. The dog is too distracted to be redirected . 

So in your statement you wanted to distract to redirect , not just distract.

Look at the video of the show line dogs confronting the helper. They were looking behind, running around , sort of lost the reason of why they were there. If the decoy wanted to distract them and redirect them to focus on the sleeve (whatever) he would have a harder time. The dog may look and then lose focus again. See how many "outs" were called out , dog could not get redirected . 

Look at some videos of strong high drive dogs. We had Andy and Dorian confronting the decoy . They were totaly focused . The decoy could not have flashed a smile without the dog being aware , or shifted his eye contact without the dog being aware. Every move was watched. Yet the handler had the dogs attention so that they could be redirected to out or fuss or platz or whatever else.

This is part of the mental clarity.

When you get into work which requires detail work - bomb detection , for one example , you absolutely need deep concentration and focus . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I disagree with both of these statements. GSD of sound mind are NOT prone to OCD behaviors and even when bored, I have never had a high drive dog develop OCD behaviors like tail chasing.


I 1st saw what you're describing here with Cochise, my old Sibe. Typical Husky, he had boundless over the top energy & loved to simply goGoGO, preferably at the speed of sound. However, if he had to settle & couldn't escape, he simply hunkered down & waited it out. No paw licking, tail biting, fur pulling, whining, howling or fretting. He'd simply enter some canine Zen zone & wait to be released even if that required hours of waiting. He was among the sanest, soundest animals I've known.

He was the same with extreme heat. He'd find a hard surface & sprawl out. Da Vinci, my Irish Wolfhound paced, fretted, threw himself down only to heave himself back up, sighed, worried, grumbled & would wind up violently sick from the heat while Cochise wisely perservered.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

RubyTuesday said:


> He was the same with extreme heat. He'd find a hard surface & sprawl out. Da Vinci, my Irish Wolfhound paced, fretted, threw himself down only to heave himself back up, sighed, worried, grumbled & would wind up violently sick from the heat while Cochise wisely perservered.


If one of my dogs acted that way, I would be running them to the vets because I would know they were in distress from sickness or injury. That behavior all the time would drive me insane.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Emoore said:


> High drive is the kid in Harvard law school. Hyper is the the kid who can't seem to calm down and sit still.


I've never seen the difference better explained!!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

All I could think looking at the video was this one. What do you think... high drive or high energy?


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## Iletthedogout (Aug 30, 2010)

carmspack said:


> drive ? or hyper? There was a whole lot of tail chomping while the pup was in the cardboard box and then more catch the tail outside.
> I like relentless drive and determination , but I can not stand a hyper dog. They are not one and the same.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I couldn't agree more.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

There was one comment I had heard on the video which is a definite drive home.
Is the fact that some of these dogs, (I'm definitely not disputing the hyper...high energy, vs. high drive) end up in first time dog owner's homes.

Which is a shame.
I think that people should see this behavior on this video; whether it's high drive or hyperactivity and think about what they are bringing into their homes and what their lifestyles are.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

carmspack said:


> Dogaroo of course you can use the material . Be my quest.
> 
> Rethink -- quoting Dogaroo "one training technique that's more difficult with a high drive dog: Distraction and redirection. It's obviously much easier to distract a hyper, distractable dog than a highly focused one "
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying, and it does make sense to me.

High drive with a highly biddable dog is a dream to work with, and these dogs can certainly be redirected with relative ease. Basically I was thinking about (e.g.) the dog with strong prey drive who is extremely focused on catching Fluffy the Neurotic Housecat & really doesn't care that his human is trying to redirect him because he knows what he wants & it's more important to him than what his human wants (most likely because he doesn't have enough of a relationship with his human to _want_ to pay attention to him/her), and even if he's temporarily pulled off the Dumb Cat, he's not going to forget about it & will go back at the first opportunity-- but a dog like that probably has issues far beyond intensity of focus & lack of biddability. (Or, perhaps more accurately, his _human_ has issues....) 

With my hyperactive Gunnar, for example.... oh wait, can't use the cat as an example because the goofy beast ADORED cats.... Anyway, he had an attention span of about three microseconds: Out of sight, out of mind, he was racing off to the next shiny thing that caught his eye with nary a thought for whatever mischief he was in previously. It was usually very easy to distract him. (Come to think of it, though, _redirection_ didn't always happen quite as I intended....  )

I have noticed & marveled at how my dogs (the two I have now) can read & respond to my every twitch & wiggle, even when their focus appears to be locked onto something else entirely & they're not even _looking_ in my direction. Even when they're sound asleep with their chainsaws running loudly, all it takes is me to shift my weight a little in bed, or wiggle a toe, and they're instantly awake & seeing if I need anything. Once they're satisfied that I'm fine & not sleepwalking or anything, they usually settle down & go back to sleep (unless I happen to open a cupboard or fridge door, of course).

Kaija's ball drive: (not the best example, but she's a Canine of Leisure with no formal job.) I accidentally threw a ball over a fence once. Kaija ran back & forth along the fence, trying to figure out how she was going to get that ball back.... she could _see_ it, but she couldn't _reach_ it, and she simply _had_ to complete her task of getting that ball. She started to dig at the fence line, I cleared my throat & she stopped digging & just stared at that ball. Then she yipped at it, but it ignored her & stayed where it was. Then she ran over to the gate and.... bless her sweet little GSD heart.... attempted to unlatch it. Finally it occurred to me to call her off the ball. She didn't like that much (it was her bestest ball) but she listened to me anyway, with just a couple quick, sad glances toward her wayward ball before turning away from it. She was so happy when I finally got a clue & fetched that dang ball for her!


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## suze (Mar 12, 2011)

This is such an interesting thread, thankyou to everyone for taking the time to contribute, tonight i'm actually going to sit down and really re-read everything again, asnd again, it is such an interesting, and important thing to have a really sound understanding of.


This is just such a great site / forum.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

At any rate, I would guess that pairing a high drive dog with a low drive human probably wouldn't be in the best interests of either party. ;-)


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

I was just remembering Kaija in a state of complete boredom. It was after Gunnar bashed my kneecap in with his hard Labradork head; I was laid up for a week & on serious pain meds. While Gunnar was off doing who knows what, Kaija found a couple large beetles on the patio & was quietly entertaining herself by "herding" them in a very small circle.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

I really like this thread. It's made me use both my brain cells.  It's given me a clearer perspective & forced me to re-think & re-see a few things. (Thanks, carmspack!) I still have soooo much to learn! 

I like being challenged on things I say because it gives me an opportunity to see things from another person's perspective & maybe learn a thing or three in the process. Maybe I won't agree sometimes, maybe I'll disagree initially & then realize the other person has some excellent points, and maybe I'll have an "Oh, I get it now!" moment & realize I've been the blind person at the back of the elephant who insists that elephants are small, skinny, rope-like things.  

At any rate, I've found that when people "politely" agree with me whether I'm right or wrong, there isn't much opportunity for learning. When I'm wrong, it's more embarrassing for me to find out AFTER I've spewed misinformation all over creation, than to be corrected immediately. I don't "get" people who defend their misinformation & mistakes even after they realize they were wrong because they think admitting it will make them look weak or stupid. (You want to hear all the stupid n00b mistakes I made with my first dog?? You would cringe! I assure you, though, I made all of them in good faith.) Maybe it's an autism thing, though; we often seem to have different ideas than neurotypicals about what's rude & what's not. (That's a whole 'nother topic, though.) My opinions are based on the information I possess at the time, and I have no qualms about changing my opinions if I receive new information that warrants it.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Dogaroo said:


> <snip>
> At any rate, I've found that when people "politely" agree with me whether I'm right or wrong, there isn't much opportunity for learning. . . . . My opinions are based on the information I possess at the time, and I have no qualms about changing my opinions if I receive new information that warrants it.


Totally agree! I always say, people/friends are not being helpful if all they do is politely agree with everything.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

German Shepherds that have more drive than ability to cap that drive are just as faulty to me as German Shepherds with no drive. There must be balance and nerve strength commensurate with the drive.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> German Shepherds that have more drive than ability to cap that drive are just as faulty to me as German Shepherds with no drive. There must be balance and nerve strength commensurate with the drive.


This should be printed on a t-shirt or something!!!


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## SARAHSMITH (Sep 19, 2010)

After reading all this great info I think my dog is high drive, at least in regards to fetch & greeting other people/dogs. He LOVES fetch and will not accept a favorite treat if I have that frisbee in my hand because he wants to fetch more than eat. If I throw it in the brush, he has spent 5 minutes looking until he finds it. This does not always work to our favor. When walking him, if we walk by another dog a treat will not distract him. I guess he is "driven" to greet that other dog and will not be distracted. Funny, if we are far enough away he will easily ignore with a "Leave It" command, but if within a few feet, forget it.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> If one of my dogs acted that way, I would be running them to the vets because I would know they were in distress from sickness or injury. That behavior all the time would drive me insane.


It was only with high heat & humidity. The 1st thing I did was add central air b/c I agree, it's absolutely got to be unhealthy with such an extreme response. Even with central air, he had to go to the vets a couple of times b/c it still got to him. Unfortunately, there wasn't much they could do. Once when he was 8 the vet was talking about IF he survived the summer. Wretched experience, especially for poor da Vinci. Ironically, he lived past his 11th birthday which is ancient for IWs.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

SARAHSMITH said:


> When walking him, if we walk by another dog a treat will not distract him. I guess he is "driven" to greet that other dog and will not be distracted. Funny, if we are far enough away he will easily ignore with a "Leave It" command, but if within a few feet, forget it.


Don't let youself be convinced that dog reactivity has anything to do with drive in the working sense. It does not. You dog is reactive, plain and simple.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Don't let youself be convinced that dog reactivity has anything to do with drive in the working sense. It does not. You dog is reactive, plain and simple.


I don't know... she says the dog wants to greet the other dog, not that the dogs barks or lunges...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Catu said:


> I don't know... she says the dog wants to greet the other dog, not that the dogs barks or lunges...


Sorry, you can't get your dogs attention and he's trying to "greet" another dog without listening to you....reactive.

Even if it' pure friendliness, it still has nothing to do with drive. It's just lack of control.


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