# Chaining dogs



## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

If your area allows dogs to be tethered/tied, please fight this horrible practice! Check out some of these videos- yes, they are disturbing.










http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV2qhnMPq50&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82hsGFVSeiE&feature=related


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Not into watching disturbing videos, thank you no. Lots of people chain their dogs here, or put them on trolly runs. I'm usually concerned the dog will break it and get hurt running down the street.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I would be surprised if any one on this forum chains there dog as a means of containment as opposed to a fenced yard or a kennel.

I would post it on other forums as well


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

aside from the psychological damage - 

my neighbor has this dog (that is a climber) tied to a zip line (from tree to tree, full length of yard) with another line attached to a harness, not a collar... (access to food, water, toys, bed, shade, etc) its not something i would try, but seems the most appropriate manner to do so if you're set on doing it - any opposition or dangers with this method? (aside from breaking loose as sunczarina mentioned)...

thanks


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

My dogs go out individually out on what I call a lead,which some may consider a chain. When one is out its supervised and I am usually outside with them or looking out a window. My dogs both get appropriate exercise. We don't have the pleasure of having a fenced in yard and we don't have a kennel. They also get time to run around off the lead, however I use the lead in case there is something that may distract my dog from my command. There is a correct way to use a lead"chain" and most people don't. But there are those who do. In my case its used for the safy of others as well as my dogs.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I watched a little of the video - didn't have to see too much because I have seen it far too often in real life.

We're not talking about the dogs that spend part of their day on a light link chain or cable that is attached to a long cable run. Rather the poor dog that has a four foot tow chain pad locked around its neck, attached to a tree or post. Around the post is a four foot circular trench 18 inches deep produced by pacing day after day. A water bowl that is out of reach, no socialization, no human contact! Believe me I know what you are talking about. The best you can do is report it to your local authorities and hope that they will do something about it.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

from reading your post it seems like your dogs are out just to relieve themselves plus you're watching them. what you're doing is ok. the dogs in the video are chained, left outside and abused. we never leave our dogs in the yard unattended. they go in the yard to potty, play or to get sprayed with the hose. my dogs live indoors with us. how could someone chain a dog outside and just leave it??


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i bet the people that chain they're dogs on this forum don't do it in an abusive manner!!!


> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaNot into watching disturbing videos, thank you no. Lots of people chain their dogs here, or put them on trolly runs. I'm usually concerned the dog will break it and get hurt running down the street.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I never thought it was abusive when I had to tie Luther. We did not have a fence when we first bought this house. There was a property line dispute that was not disclosed. We had to wait over a year before installing a fence.

During that time, Luther was on a plastic coated steel cable attached to a spike in the side lawn. He was never out when I was not home, although he was occasionally out in the rain for a few minutes - we live on the coast where the rain comes in fast.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

Yes, there is a big difference between people who have their dogs on a lead or something similar versus those that subject their dogs to the endless cruelty of living their entire life on a chain that is meant for towing. I thought I had seen the "worst" of chained dogs until I watched that video. It was horrific. I would also assume as you have pointed out that most people on this forum do not believe in chaining their dogs 24/7, but maybe they can forward the video to others. The second video is of a dog that spent 10 years of its life on a chain and was finally freed and had the best 18 months of its life being "free." The typical dogs that are chained are emaciated, not taken to the vet, never loved, and never taken for walks or given any exercise. If you were to watch the videos, you would understand the dogs that I am talking about (meaning to those of you that were defensive as if I were referring to you).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chaining dogs in my opinion is better than letting them roam free. Not everyone has a fenced in yard or kennel run for a dog. A chain is cheap and can be done ok, where the dog has water and shelter. No it is not ideal. But out here where there tends to be two choices: chain the dog or not chain the dog (meaning let it run loose). I will not rally to end tethering where the alternative is to end containment. 

Cujo and Pippy are left out on a chain for bathroom breaks. My parents have one chain in their back yard and it allows the dog to run out, find the perfect spot and do his business. He comes back to the house and bangs on the door and they let him in and let the other dog out. Before Cujo came, Pippy was happy to be out for hours at a time, but now the old boy wants to come right back in. Cujo does not like staying out at all. So Mom and Dad bring him in right away. They actually set the timer so they do not forget. 

They used to have those spiral stakes that Pippy would pull out and carry around the neighborhood. When I gave them Cujo, I brought them a big dog stake so that the pup would be safer. Cujo is now three and there have been no failures. Of course, he isn't out their long enough to give it a bored, energetic, athletic doggy trial.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

Here's my point again- watch the videos and you'll understand what I'm saying. There is a difference between chaining your dog and putting it on a chain/tether/lead for a short period of time. I am talking about the dogs who are on chains 24/7 for their entire lives and basically left out there to die. 

My dogs live in the house, not chained up in a backyard and forgotten about. They are now seniors with health problems, but they are still exercised- just at a slower pace. I believe in walking dogs, playing ball with them or other games, agility, taking them for swims, and/or similar activities. I don't believe in putting a dog on a chain and saying, "Okay, go exercise yourself." You need interaction with your dog and all I'm saying is the dogs that live their entire life on a chain is not getting that socialization it needs.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2008)

There's a big difference IMO between chaining a dog and using a zip line if used properly with stops on the line so the dog can't become entangled in it. That and using it appropriately. 

My parents lived miles from even our nearest neighbor let alone a paved road. Somebody was always around too. We used fenced in corrals and zip lines to separate and secure dogs. A few dogs were always loose because they were the most highly trained and would never wander off for any reason. It was a rare day indeed when somebody wasn't at the house but if that happened the dogs were either in the corral and their sheds or in the house or both depending on the weather. For us it was a good way to keep dogs that needed to be separated apart and not resort to having separate corrals all over the place. That way mom could dry the wash outside for example and a dog or two would be on a zip line nearby.

I don't use zip lines here because they wouldn't be appropriate. Too many possibilities of encountering another dog. We have an outdoor chain link fence type kennel but the dogs spend minimal time in it. Either they are inside the house or outside with us either loose or on a lead again, depending on what's appropriate.

I certainly do agree though that leaving an animal anywhere 24/7 is terrible - whether it's a chain, a zip line or a fenced in yard. Dogs need interaction with the world and their owners of course.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I did not watch the videos; however, I have three GSD's and all react differently. Not to a chain, but a nylon long line rope. The dog I took as a pup and is now almost three loves it. He would rather sit in the yard, looking at my neighbor's yard for Abby,his favortie lab, then be allowed to run free in the house.

My second, an adopted rescue I will not leave outside on a lease. The poor thing just gets so tangled. So she is left free in the house.

The third is a rescue, and so great I doubt he will be with us long. But again, he would rather sit and watch the boats go by, etc. then be free to roam in the house.

A horrible practice, Timber and I disagree.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Since last year my county no longer allows chaining dogs outside







, except for short periods of exercise purposes. They also made it illegal to transport pets on the back of pickup trucks unsecured. Finally.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_Chaining dogs in my opinion is better than letting them roam free. _
Is that a joke









_Not everyone has a fenced in yard or kennel run for a dog._
If people are not even willing to provide the basics like a fenced in yard/ secure run and refuse to keep him indoors to keep him out of harms way, they shouldn't have the priviledge of owning a dog! What do they need a dog for?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Maedchen_Chaining dogs in my opinion is better than letting them roam free. _
> Is that a joke
> 
> 
> ...


Hello? I bought a house with the intention of fencing it in but couldn't becuase of a crazy neighbor. We came out of a place that had a very small (12' x 25') yard and bought a house without knowing the previous owner had an issue with the crazy lady next door. I had to pay surveyors and court fees and go battle for a year to get my fence. 

Meanwhile, do you think I should have put my dog in an animal shelter? How would that make sense to take a dog out of a loving home where he was exercised, feed high quality food and taken to training every week just becuase he had to be tethered rather than let him run free? 

Should I suppose he'd have been better off running free in a neighborhood that is right next to Rt 1A???? Or better off in the animal shelter that's already over crowded???


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Life is as complicated as you make it!
We didn't had a fence (for over a year) when we moved into the house either. So guess what: my dogs stayed indoors! 
Now that we have a fence all around they still stay indoors. My dogs live -as the rest of the family does- in the house, they're not yard accessory.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have 14 dogs that live inside -- ok seven are puppies. But I have one that lives outside. It is not a matter of who is family and who is not. Dubya likes it outside. When given the run of the house and yard, he sleeps outside under the stars. Now I kennel him outside. When he is inside he wants out. Not sure if there are any other GSDs like that, but it is what it is. 

It is not a joke when I said chaining dogs is better than letting them run free. Sorry, there are too many transplanted city folks out here that let their dogs run free. They do not have fences, invisible fences, and do not bother to train their dogs to stay on their property. They whine and cry when someone shoots their dog, but that is about the only time you hear about it. And almost every day I see a dog dead in the road. And all the time, I see the vet administering to a dog hit by a car, and unlikely to make it. It is disgusting. 

Fences are not fool proof either. If you want a dog to be outside unsupervised, then you have to have an escape proof kennel with a fence around it for added security. But if you are not going to go through all of that, and are gone too many hours a day to keep your dog inside the entire time. Than tethering the dog is better than other choices. 

It is not uncommon for people to be gone for work 11 or 12 hours a day, simply because that is how far they are driving. I think it is just as cruel to crate a dog for this period of time and just as dangerous as tethering. 

If everyone currently chaining their dog, brought them into their homes, and took them outside when they needed to relieve themselves. And everyone currently allowing their dogs to run free, would chain their dogs. I would be very happy. 

I do not want to see anti-tether legislation here because these people that you say should not have the right to own a dog, will drop them at shelters and they will be euthanized. I think living outside on a line is better than dying in a gas chamber.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> If everyone currently chaining their dog, brought them into their homes, and took them outside when they needed to relieve themselves. And everyone currently allowing their dogs to run free, would chain their dogs. I would be very happy.
> 
> I do not want to see anti-tether legislation here because these people that you say should not have the right to own a dog, will drop them at shelters and they will be euthanized. I think living outside on a line is better than dying in a gas chamber.


If you watched the videos, you would not say that you'd rather them live on a chain than die in a chamber because they have no life worth living on a chain. They'd go through plus or minus 20 minutes of torture versus many years.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2008)

this discussion makes it onto the board every so often, and its always the the same. there are people who refuse to watch the videos, look at the pictures, and read the stories to fully understand what chaining really means that don't find anything wrong with it. the fight IS NOT against people who don't have a fence and need to tether their dogs to go to the bathroom or just spend some time outside...the fight IS against people who chain their dogs outside on a short, usually very heavy, chain 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. these dogs live in their own filth, their own sh*t, they are attacked by flies and fleas, of which cause open wounds that the flies and fleas attack even more. they are not loved, not taken care of, but rather forgotten about. if anyone questions these practices and thinks that they may be okay...watch the videos...look at the pictures...read the stories...educate yourself!

www.dogsdeservebetter.com


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

this discussion makes it onto the board every so often, and its always the the same. there are people who refuse to watch the videos, look at the pictures, and read the stories to fully understand what chaining really means that don't find anything wrong with it. the fight IS NOT against people who don't have a fence and need to tether their dogs to go to the bathroom or just spend some time outside...the fight IS against people who chain their dogs outside on a short, usually very heavy, chain 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. these dogs live in their own filth, their own sh*t, they are attacked by flies and fleas, of which cause open wounds that the flies and fleas attack even more. they are not loved, not taken care of, but rather forgotten about. if anyone questions these practices and thinks that they may be okay...watch the videos...look at the pictures...read the stories...educate yourself!

http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com



oops wasn't signed in...that was from me


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't like the legislation because it encourages neighbors to report neighbors. 

Yes, some people abuse chains.

Other people do have dogs living on chains for the majority of their lives, but the dogs are played with and loved. Just not the way the people on this board love their dogs. 

Their children play with the dog, they care for the dog, they even take it to the vet when it warrants it. 

My dog growing up spent 95% of her life on a chain. She was a happy dog and a good dog. She did not have fleas, and was not sick in any way. She lived to be fourteen. I would take her for walks through town and have a donut afterwards with her. Other than that, she was chained so that she could get into her house in the garage, and out into the driveway and yard. My father fed her and talked to her every day. She watched our house and the old lady across the streets house. 

When we first got her she was inside the house. She was sick the entire time, vomit and diarreah. Once we put her outside she got better. She was certainly not better off gassed. I was there with my sister and father when we put her down at fourteen.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Anonymous = Unregistered poster? Is it one of us in disguise? I LOVE mysteries!!


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfAnonymous = Unregistered poster? Is it one of us in disguise? I LOVE mysteries!!


no that was me...i reposted it right below it. i didn't realize i wasn't signed in...i thought you couldn't post without signing in.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Wow, considering us reascue folks pick up more dogs from your state in a week then you all save in a year I wonder how you would transport five rescue dogs over 1,000 miles.

Of course they are caged, and it has been a long day, as we just got a few more from Georgia.

What does finally mean, you would rather have the guys and gals killed because they are in high kill shelters, or transported to the Midwest via a pick-up.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think a secured crate in the bed of a pick up truck is ok, just not a loose or leashed dog in the bed of a pick up. But I could be wrong. 

I do not like to see dogs in the beds of pick ups, but if they are crated, I think it is better/safe enough.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Timber,
what is your problem?








Those dogs "you" pick up from "my" state aren't mine, but from uneducated ******** who shouldn't have dogs in the first place. The country where I come from doesn't kill dogs, put them on a chain to die a slow death in the yard or discard of them whenever they move or feel like it. Despite that it's not my responsibility how you american treat your dogs, I still try to help as best as I can-bc I care about the dogs. Don't you dare put me in the same pot with those southern folks here. 
If you would have carefully <u>read and understand</u> the purpose and message of the original post (chaining dogs for life), you could've spared your time and post- that goes for some other posters too.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

The original intent as I understand it is to stop people from chaining their dogs. All people from chaining their dogs.

As I and other decent dog loving people have pointed out, we have chained our dogs for various reasons. Never with any intention of harming the dog, just to keep them safe off the road while they get a little fresh air and do their business.

I have a 6 foot chain link fence but I do upon occasion tie Morgan out front if the kids and I are working in the front garden. She goes completely bobats pacing around and whining if she is locked in and the kids are out front. 

Is this wrong, she is right with her family and obviously loved enough not to be separated from them.

The point I was trying to make is with a ban on tie outs, DECENT PEOPLE are going to be punished because of the actions of a few jerks who mistreat their dogs. 

I do not believe the majority of people who use a tie out are leaving their dogs out there 24/7.

In my state, tie outs are not illegal and I doubt they ever will be. We do however have fairly progressive animal cruelty laws that give animal control the right to take away a dog who is chained and suffering from a poor quality life.

Bans are bad. Empower your animal control.

.period.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Selzer, it is not the best alternative. But it is far better then letting these rescues be killed. 

Why we get so many GSD's from out southern states, I have no idea, but we do.


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## Nerrej (Jun 23, 2008)

The way I understood the OP's point to be was to not chain your dogs for life. And I peaked at the videos and this was indeed what they were talking about. these dogs had about 4 feet of chain. Collars embedded in their necks. Etc. I don't think its fair to come and even post here if you haven't read the entire story or viewed the video. I'm sure those of you who are "defending" dog chaining didn't watch the video. Because you would understand that the OP isn't talking about you with this thread.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaThe original intent as I understand it is to stop people from chaining their dogs. All people from chaining their dogs.
> 
> As I and other decent dog loving people have pointed out, we have chained our dogs for various reasons. Never with any intention of harming the dog, just to keep them safe off the road while they get a little fresh air and do their business.
> 
> ...


no these laws will not make it illegal to tie your dog out; the one in my county makes it illegal to tie them out for more than 3 hours at a time on a stationary chain. 


i agree with Nerrej...look at the videos, read the literature, and read about some of the laws that have passed...these are NOT designed to negatively affect GOOD dog owners!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But how do you enforce it? I do not think it is terrible to chain a dog for eight or ten hours. It depends on the chain, the condition of the animal, the shelter and accomadations for the animal. 

When I was a kid our dogs were chained. Never did one of them get an embedded collar or hung by their chain. Occasionally they got it kinked up, but we figured out the problem and fixed it. 

The dogs in your videos are abused. They are being treated cruelly. Use your current laws to arrest people who are practicing animal cruelty. Don't blame the chains. Chains do not cause collars to become embedded. People cause collars to be embedded. 

There are two problems here: one is that you are trying to make a law out of what you FEEL is right, the amount of time you FEEL a dog can be chained up; the other is that you are trying to pass a law that is practically unenforceable.

I say it is unenforceable because unless you ban all chains, you will not be able to prove a dog was chained for 3 hours. You may see Cujo out on a line at nine oclock and come back and see him on a line at 1 oclock. I will guarantee the dog was not out more than 20 minutes at a time, but will AC KNOW THAT? Will they care? 

Now is about the time when someone will pipe up and say that they will only use this law for gross neglect cases. Sorry, don't make a law you do not intend to enforce across the board. 

If a dog is dehydrated, starved, flea infested with sores all over, burned by the elements where he has no shelter, or if he has a collar embedded in his neck, the owners are violating cruelty laws. 

If only the current AC would enforce the laws on the books, they could leave the rest of the people alone. My current dogs have never been tied, never. But that does not mean that I will not rest until NO dog is ever tied. 

I am sorry, but they do not need laws to cover what cruelty laws cover, but the AR people and the PETA people and a few other extremists truly want to stop the chaining of dogs, because SOME of the people who currently chain their dogs will not be able to foot the bill for a fence and will end up getting rid of their dog. 

A dog bought from a breeder does not equal a dead dog at a shelter, but that is what PETA shamelessly claims. They want to give you a body bag and they want to show you all the dogs dead in shelters because they want to pass laws against breeding dogs. 

They want to show you these horror stories about chaining dogs because they want to pass more laws against dog owners. 

When they get done with the anti tether law, what will they go after next? Crates? Kennels? The evil PRONG COLLAR??? 

I would rather my neighbors tether their dogs than to let them run freely over my property. And for as crappy as my former neighbor was to her dogs, all of them were tied out (when she finally did tie the pitt mix), and none of them had embedded collars and none of them hung themselves. The bitch's pups got killed in the road, but THEY were not tethered.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

i don't think there is a current law against having a dog with too much weight hanging on them (unfortunately) when some of these dogs have 30-40 pounds hanging off of them. nor is there a law about neglecting your dog emotionally. dogs are not farm animals, they want to be with their family. just because your family "successfully" chained a dog does not make it right, imo. there are a lot of things that used to be okay back in the day (kids and dogs in the back of a pickup, everyone having a litter of pups, etc) that we know better about now. selzer, i agree with you that yes, current laws do need to be enforced better, but i also think that this law is important. in a perfect world, everyone would be able to be educated about being a good pet owner and most of it is about education, not law enforcing. but there will always be those people that need to get cited to realize what they are doing is wrong. and btw, just because some of us are advocates against chaining does not mean we are affiliated with peta. dogs deserve better, probably the biggest organization formed to educate people about including their dog as part of the family, and rescuing dogs who were forgotten about in the backyard, is in no way affiliated with peta, actually, they choose to make it a point that they do not share the same views as peta.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Sorry I cannot watch the video's when you say disturbing, I am to afraid. I watch animal cops, so I feel I know what you are talking about. 

I am against chaining. But was not aware there was a law against it any where. Thank goodness there is. 

There is a huge difference in the occational tie out! If you do not have a fenced in yard! 

I waited until I had a fenced in yard to get my dogs. 

How do I find out if my state has it? It probably does not or I would have heard. 
You just do not see it in my area though. 
My cousin used to get peoples addresses and send them this sad poem about, my life on a chain.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So how come people who let their dog become double the size it ought to be do not have a law against them -- that is cruelty in an extreme. 

You do not like chains. I do not like crates. Should I make everyone stop using crates because I do not like them? How do you prove someone is leaving their dog on a chain beyond the allowable time limit? Are they going to confiscate dogs or cite people on the word of a possibly hostile neighbor??? 

I think you go with whether the dog is showing signs of physical neglect or abuse and then you slam the owner hard. Confiscating dogs or citing people who have perfectly healthy animals rubs me the wrong way. I do not currently chain, but if I had to, for any reason, I would. There is always the possibility that I might need to chain a dog for a couple of days. It is possible. It certainly will not do psychological damage to the dog. Abuse and Neglect should be cited and penalized, not methods of containment and collar types, and feeding methods and choices.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I think that is the only thing being talked about here is *Neglect. Not a couple of days, years...*

The law would untie law enforcements hands.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But how do they KNOW it is years and not days. 

I chained Jazzy out front ONE DAY -- one. I was putting in a better kennel and Arwen was in the house and well, that one day I had her on a trolly from the tree to the front door and she turned my front yard into a mud pit that looked like she was there for YEARS! 

I could just see myself on Animal Cops in front of my trailer saying, "yeah, that all happened since last night."

But the only way Animal control will know that the dog is neglected, is if it has physical signs of abuse. Otherwise it is your word against your neighbors. I am all for keeping your neighbors on good terms, but every now and again there is one who is insane. 

If animal control can make a judgement about the dog, then there is probably other laws that they could get the owner on.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Chaining a dog is not "torture" or "animal cruelty". Chaining a dog for year at a time and having them suffer from starvation, dehydration, embedded collars or worse are examples of "torture" or "animal cruelty" and there are already laws for that. 

I don't see the point in making more laws when the original laws are already in place. If you see an animal chained that looks like it is in bad shape then the local authorities can step in without another "law" that has anything to do with chaining a dog. 

I do think that if this law passes and chaining a dog is made "illegal" unless you can PROVE?? that it wasn't for very long will lead to more laws. How about one where you can't contain a dog in a kennel outside for more than three hours? or You can't put a dog in a kennel inside your house for more than three hours at a time? 

Please don't freak out and think I didn't watch the video. I did and it was horrible. I watch Animal Planet too and see the poor things tied to trees that are suffering BUT, this already falls under the animal rights laws that ALL states have regarding neglect and abuse.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I understand both Selzer and ShellyG points about the laws already in place. 

I would not want it to be a situation where the law was absused, or neighbors were using it to get back at each other. 

People just need to watch the wording on the law. How is it stated? Where can I look it up? *OP*

This is a different kind of neglect, one that may not show physiclly. 
A mental neglect. Just mental at first, it gets much worse in some cases...this could help stop it before it gets to fly bites, grown in collars, etc. 

We were looking at a new house a yr or so ago, no fence, we would have had to move in and build one or try to get it up before the move. It went through my mind that my three dogs would maybe have to be tied out. 
New people, new neighbors, My dogs certainly would not like it, I have never done that to them, I am sure they would bark. 
Yes, with this law, I COULD be reported. 

I would just have to have faith, that they would come to a GOOD OWNER home, and see all i's are dotted and t's are crossed...and move on. I welcome that check. Please do. That means they are checking...and they will help a dog because they are checking. 

Yes I would be devastated if they came and said we are taking your dogs. Maybe I am out of touch, but I just do not see that happengin. They would have one heck of a fight on there hands, in court. 

This is one more voice for dogs. That is the way I see it. Just my opinon. I do not kennel my dogs for over 3 hrs anyway. That is just me, I do not want to get in a kennel debate...I am not saying what other people do is wrong. I am a stay at home Mom, my dogs are hardly ever kenneled. 
I am in no way perfect. I want to protect my rights yes. But people who do right should not worry about new laws. 
I need to protect my right to chain out my dog?? 
I have better things to fight for.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> Quote: This is a different kind of neglect, one that may not show physiclly.
> A mental neglect. Just mental at first, it gets much worse in some cases...this could help stop it before it gets to fly bites, grown in collars, etc.















> Quote: I need to protect my right to chain out my dog??
> I have better things to fight for.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

Here is a website with more information laying out some of the statutes:

http://www.helpinganimals.com/ga_tetherLegislation.asp


Here are a few others:
http://www.theherald-nc.com/front/story/9082.html

http://www.unchainyourdog.org/Laws.htm


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I watched the video, and based on the story do not disagree with you. Tight collars and short chains are not humane.

However, I have a GSD that would rather sit outside in the shade and watch my neighbor's lab then stay in the house. Timber is perfectly trained, so it is his call. Either stay in the house, unleased, or be chained to a twenty foot lease, with a loose collar, and watch the boats go by, and my neighrbor's dog, Abby.

Timber has decided on the latter.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OK, I watched the video to. EVERYONE should. 

I am crying over Judith's story. 

On another thread on here there is a dog near the Ozarks that is living on a chain right now. Tied to a cinder block that he is dragging around. 
The owners cannot afford him. He is a GSD mix I think. 

No one knows what to do or how to get him to a rescue. 

I read the laws and what state has them. Thank you for posting that. My county does not. Really I have not seen it here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a real problem with making laws about mentally abusing dogs. How do you prove that? Are they going to bring in people who claim to be able to understand dog's thoughts? 

When will we step in and protect children from mental abuse? When will we get it out of our schools. I cannot champion resources for dog's mental abuse when I know that children are not being protected. I do not have kids and never will, but that is more important in my opinion. 

You can say I am mentally abusing my dogs for leaving them kenneled while I go to work. I could stay home and physically neglect them by not being able to buy dog food. Another person is probably mentally abusing their dog by making it wear a halti collar. And PETA people will say that we are mentally abusing our dogs by making the act contrary to their nature, living in our homes alongside cats, and rabbits, sitting and staying on our command, etc. etc. etc. 

I do not like the precedent that laws like this have. WE BELIEVE it is not good for the dog. WE FEEL that the dog is suffering. Sorry, if a dog has lived on a chain all his life, that chain is what he knows. Removing the chian could actually be more mentally abusive to the dog, as he feels comfortable, knowing his boundaries, etc. When he is chained, all is right in the world. Unchained, he is uncertain and afraid.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Did you watch the second utube thread the OP posted?? 

Judith's story? 

You could not have. And write what you just wrote about them not knowing the difference.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I watched it. It was definitely a case for gross neglect. That the owners urinated on the dog, well, that is disgusting from a human stand point, but dogs will do that to other dogs. And who knows what all the neighbors were willing to say to animal control to have them do something about the dog. 

However, that dog might very well have had to have a cart, even if it lived in a pristine house all its life. It was gross neglect to allow the bitch to drag herself around in muck. 

I am not convinced that the chain is the evil here. Just because people use guns to kill people, other people want to blame the guns and even the gun manufacturers. Is there something WRONG with holding PEOPLE accountable and responsible? 

Why are we not roasting Animal Control for doing NOTHING. The matted fur (lack of grooming), the emaciated and dehydrated condition, and the lack of veterinary care are all grounds for animal cruelty on the grounds of neglect. It would be harder to prove abuse, and unnecessary to do so. These are physical measures that a judge or jury can look at and base a ruling on. There is no contraversy. The CHAIN is not the bad guy, a human being is. 

Thus there is no need for a new law about chaining. It is simply not necessary. Enforce the laws on the books. 

Oh, you want to be able to snag dogs away from people before they are suffering. I have a huge problem with that. There are many people on this board that keep their dogs properly fit, meaning they can feel ribs, maybe see one or two, see a waistline from top and side, etc. There are other people who think that this is too thin. DOG people do not agree on what is right and wrong. We want to add more laws based on feelings and not physical measures -- that is a problem.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

The video's stated that it is easier to neglect or forget about dogs if they are allowed to be constantly kept on chains. 

I read the laws the OP posted. 

It is different in every city, the wording of the law. It just depends on the problem your city may have. 
I have not seen a problem where I live. 
It is nice to know though, that laws have been passed in other areas. So the dogs would have a chance if I did see it. 

No I do not think you are cruel for kenneling your dogs while you work. It is quality time, not always quanity. 
We are talking about dogs that get NO time being cared for.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

With AC already doing next to nothing in many areas when it comes to abuse and neglect, it seems a bit silly to add yet another law that AC will not bother to enforce. 

Partly because it is mighty hard to enforce something that defines an allowable timeframe that a dog may be chained. Unless they are sitting out there with binoculars, and have your house staked out, how are they going to determine that the dog is being chained for longer than is allowed. 

If they can tell by other signs of neglect or abuse, what is the point of the added law. I am not convinced it is a good thing. 

The legislature can sit up there and make one bad law after another, but unless they put their money where there mouth is, nothing will come of it. If they are willing to enforce anti-chaining legislation, than why can they not manage to enforce cruelty?

Why are we all so gung ho to pass legislation. If your locality passed a law saying they shall be paid 230 billion dollars, is it going to happen? 

Or does this law imply that anyone seeing a dog chained for more than 3 hours can unchain the dog and take it away? I cannot see anyone agreeing to that either. 

You really need to be able to envision some success if you want to pass laws. I think it is yet another law that no one intends to enforce, and it is passed in hopes that 10-15 % of the people bother to read about dog laws, and maybe a fraction of a percent of those will make other arangements for their dogs.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Yes I worry about enforcing too. I think it can be done by drive bys, not stake outs. 
But you are right it would have to be done. I do not know who would do that in my area. 
I guess that is where people like me come in. I am not spiteful just watchful. 

Laws like this are for the conversation we are having. Awareness. Education. 
So Joe Shmoo, says whaat? You mean it is harmful to live your life on a chain? 

To get the word out. 
To enforce also, but to educate. I am willing to do that in my communtiy or others. 

One of my 3 dogs could live outside. Mentally. Some dogs do enjoy it. The one that would like it, would want to be inside sometimes, but she loves to be outside to stalk things. 
Not on a chain though, what is the fun in stalking if you cannot try to chase it!









Also I believe we have made huge strides with neglect through laws and education. I know it is still out there. But I have to believe it is better with shows like Animals Cops, etc. Gets people talking and aware. 
Now the overpoplation, that is another topic for another thread, that is still a battle.....


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2008)

selzer, it was actually animal control in my area that lobbied for the law. i watched some of the commisioner's meeting on tv and animal control pushed for it mainly because of dog fighting. at the time, police had just busted a large dog fighting house. all of the dogs were kept on chains in the yard (very heavy chains) within a few feet of each other, this makes the dogs dog-aggressive. so although i like the law for other reasons, it works for animal control to help curb dog fighting. and when they need more evidence to go in and see if there is dog fighting, now they can investigate if they are on chains.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Anonymousselzer, it was actually animal control in my area that lobbied for the law. i watched some of the commisioner's meeting on tv and animal control pushed for it mainly because of dog fighting. at the time, police had just busted a large dog fighting house. all of the dogs were kept on chains in the yard (very heavy chains) within a few feet of each other, this makes the dogs dog-aggressive. so although i like the law for other reasons, it works for animal control to help curb dog fighting. and when they need more evidence to go in and see if there is dog fighting, now they can investigate if they are on chains.



that was me again, sorry i keep replying without being signed in...it used to not let you do that!


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

In certain areas that makes a lot of sense.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO
> that was me again, sorry i keep replying without being signed in...it used to not let you do that!


Funny thing it allows you. I tryed, just to test, and couldn't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why not pass a law about specific types of chain, weights of chain, lengths of chain, etc.? It is not good to pass an overall law that includes ordinary people if you are going to only enforce it in specific cases. 

Let's say that some drug dealers are using agitation collars to encourage their dogs to protect their drugs. Should these collars be banned? 

Let's say some drug dealers are using GSDs to protect their drugs. Should GSDs be banned. 

Some dog fighters use chains to produce fighting dogs, lets ban chains. 

Does anyone out there get where I am coming from? 

I do not want more laws because where do they stop? 

We do not need more laws. We need to enforce the laws there are.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> We do not need more laws. We need to enforce the laws there are.


I'm a former police officer and I even cringe at that statement. Laws do <u>not</u> remain fixed over time and are constantly evolving as our culture changes. I'm sorry to inform you, but sometimes we do need new laws when it becomes apparent that there is either a need or a gap in the ones that we have.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dogs in these vids would have been covered under existing laws that were not applied, or were applied. That is not a reason to add more laws. 

As a former police officer, are you for banning guns every time someone shoots someone with one? Does that include police officers, save for their service revolvers. 

I believe that people commit crimes, or are negligent, not chains or guns or tread mills -- yep they use these for dog fighting too, let's ban them too. We need to hold people accountable for their actions not ban objects, and not hold liable the manufacturers of said objects (unless the object is illegal). 

When we make a law for this, it makes it that much easier to make another law for something else. Let's keep it simple, and arrest people whose animals are physically suffering due to the conditions they are kept in, or because of blatent physical abuse, or because of lack of veterinary care and leave it at that.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO
> 
> 
> Anonymous said:
> ...


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

The kicker is I and probably most of us agree with Selzer. 

The comment from someone that said they were a former cop and wanted more laws really struck me funny, because I know many police and they would disagree.

As for dog fighting, if it is not already a felony, make it one, and then jail the owners. Opps, a new law.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Most of "Us". 

Just a little insulted by that. Unless you have critters in your pocket. 
That statement is just a little clicky to a new member. I really do not know who you are talking for, or who voted for you to talk for them. Rescues, breeders, GSD forum members???

So you and yours agree there should be no laws against chaining out dogs? 
That is fine. 
I do not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When they banned pit bulls, I did not care because my dogs were not pit bulls. 

When they banned Rottweilers and Chows, I did not say anything because my dogs were not Rottweilers and Chows.

When they banned tail docking and ear cropping, I rejoiced because mine was not a docked or cropped breed. 

When they limited dog owners to two dogs with no grand father clause, I did not say anything because I only owned one. 

When they made hunting with dogs illegal, I was not fussed as my dog is not a hunting dog. 

When they made it mandatory for all dogs to be spayed or neutered, I did not speak up because my dog is neutered. 

When they banned chains I said fine because I keep my dog with me all the time. 

When they banned my dog, I looked around for help.... 



We work so hard for freedom. We have brothers, fathers, uncles, husbands, and daughters overseas fighting for freedom, or injured for freedom. But we cannot wait to give our freedoms up. Begging for laws is pleading with the government to remove your freedom. I do not believe anyone should be free to be cruel, but a chain is not cruel, the application of the chain may be cruel, and this could be said of many other items that many of us use on this board, like crates and prongs, and choke chains, and e-collars. A man doused his dog with gasoline and set the dog on fire. She followed him, on fire to the store. Maybe we should ban gasoline because it is really cruel.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Actually, in reply to your comments all of the above. I do rescue, have adopted a dog named Paris Hilton, and have an expensive European GSD.

So what is your point.

Do I have critters in my pocket; perhaps a frog. I do live on a river.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I had not made an opinion on this yet, but I've been following this thread. Selzer, I can't but agree.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

Man needs laws because he cannot regulate his own behavior (well, many can't). Besides being in law enforcement I teach criminal justice, so the law is in my blood so to speak. My only other passion is animals. I live in a county that allows dogs to be chained. I can walk down the street less than a mile and see several dogs on tow truck chains that have so-called shelter, but not much else. I have never seen them walked or given attention in all the years they've lived on those chains. Animal control can't do anything because as long as they have some kind of shelter (no matter how pathetic) and food and water, that's all they need in the eyes of this county's laws. The neighboring county on the other hand has a ban on tethering and I rarely ever see a dog living its entire life on a chain in that county. We have pushed for the same law in this county but this place is full of ******** who still view animals as property and don't believe that they have feelings. (In the state's view, animals in the legal sense are viewed as property.)


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

That was a wonderful speech. I am sure we can agree with that. 



Banning. Is not what I took this thread is about. Fighting the practice of dogs living a short chains their whole lives. 
The laws in place in communities are not about banning. 

No one is talking about banning anything. 

You can ban it as far as I am concerned. But that is not what this is about. 


Timber I was not making a point or asking who you were with, I was asking who you meant by US. Nevermind.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Banning is just the word of the day. Media uses it. 

Here is how one law reads.

This ordinance prohibits the tethering of dogs for more than two continuous hours or six total hours in any 24-hour period. A hiatus of three or more continuous hours must separate tethering sessions.


Every cities law reads differently. Some cities prohibit, certain types of tethering, like TOW CHAINS, ARE WE OK WITH THAT. 

But mostly they are just watching out for the way people do it. 

This is just an FYI thread to check out your own community.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

"This ordinance prohibits the tethering of dogs for more than two continuous hours or six total hours in any 24-hour period. A hiatus of three or more continuous hours must separate tethering sessions."

How do they have the resources to enforce this??? Do they sit outside your house for two hours -- then bam, grab that dog! Or do they drive by at 8, and again at 11? 

So what if your dog has the runs? You cannot let it out at eleven because it was out at eight thirty??? 

Who has this kind of time and money to spy on how people are keeping their dogs. 

If the dogs are kept inhumanely (disgusting word choice as this is NOT a human we are talking about), there will be signs, both in physical condition and in grooming that will show neglect. 

Enforce cruelty laws.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

Sorry guys for going on and on, this is extra frustrating right now because of Dylan's thread in the non-urgent rescue. He is a GSD in MO, living on a chain. 

I found this too, Ozark Haven Rescue, in Missouri, on Petfinders. When I was researching to find him help. There is a organization called Dogs Derserve Better, also. 
This is no small problem. 



Dominick's Honor is a program we hope can continue to make a difference in the Ozarks. Due to a severe shortage of foster care we were forced to leave an unwanted dog in the original owner's home as we found him, living on a chain.........we had no foster space and in the few, short days that followed, we did find sanctuary for Dominick in another rescue but when we returned to pick him up to make the trip with our transport volunteers, he had hung himself on his chain. As our devoted volunteer arrived she was unable to free him and he was dead. Our Dominick's Honor program puts light weight cables and safety harnesses on dogs forced to remain tethered either because the owners won't release them or the cities won't protect them. These light weight cables and harnesses protect our tethered friends from the lonely cold strangulation that dear Dominick suffered. Never will any Ozark Haven Volunteers pass by a dog tethered on heavy chains or chokers and not stop, knock on the door and get permission to provide a safer tethering device at our cost. Community support and donations of cables and harnesses are used for this purpose. Anyone wishing to support the Dominick's Honor program please be in touch. As you look into Dominick's eyes in the picture below, just know you did the right thing for a dog out there, somewhere, he won't live with the spinal pain and distortion tethering causes.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

That picticular law was from a small town, they might have the resources.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

My uncle leaves his GSD tied all day out in good weather, but I don't agree with doing that.
I do tie Cookie out sometimes, but ALWAYS under my supervision and for very short periods of time.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

the 24/7/365 chaining really doesn't sit well with me. I don't care what kind of provisions the dog may or may not have. It isn't right.

My yard isn't fully fenced in, but my dogs now aren't ever on a tie out. When they need to go out or simply want to go play...I go with them. 

I'm not against tethering dogs out for a bit when you need to for others though.
My previous dog, Angus, had to be connected to something to be outside. Even in a fenced area..if the fence wasn't 8 ft high...he was up and over it in search of dogs and kids to play with in the blink of an eye.

At times, that meant he was on a tie out for maybe 20-30 minutes by himself.

I'll never do that with a dog again. Ever. He 'snapped' one day while on his tie out and nearly ripped the face off of my 8 yr old's best friend. He knew him, never showed ANY aggression to ANYTHING before. He loved cats, other dogs, kids of all ages, adults of all walks, etc. He walked in the labor day parades with us, trick or treated (in costume) with out kids and us. Greeted everyone with a wag and wiggle.

After that happened...my husband (his FAVORITE person in the world) came back from a trip..he snarled at him from his crate, and went after him on a lead. Putting him down was one of the hardest things I have ever had to do.
I honestly have no idea what went wrong....but I always wonder if the tethering was a factor. Even if it wasn't, I couldn't do it again.

With 2 fosters-









With his best friend-


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Chaining doesn't sit well with me either, if only from a med. standpoint. My girls are outside with me if they need to be outside. If they are not trained or sane enought to be off leash, then I hold the end. I can not tell you how many strangled dogs I have bagged and put into the freezer at work, because they were unsupervised. And how many of their owners were devestated because they always were home, but chose that day to go get gas for the grill. It is tragic from both standpoints, and unsafe.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I appreciate your response, and oftentimes tend to think our opinions are based on the enviroment in which we live.

In my neighborhood, some dogs are loose (I live on an Island with six houses), other sit outside on longline ropes, including my dog Timber. Why, because he prefers to be outside instead of being loose in the house. And my guy is very protective of my property, so he is leased for a part of the day.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Princess was on a chain most of her fourteen years. Tramp was chained inside and outside the whole time we had him. Perky was out back on a chain the whole time we had him. 

These are my childhood dogs. The only one I did not mention was Droopy who was a puppy that was not chained but fenced around on our porch. Somebody stole droopy off of our porch. This was years after Perky was no more and before Tramp and Princess. It was also in the seventies, so the thought that someone did not like how we kept our dog and stole him is a little out there. 

None of these dogs choked or strangled themselves. 

My boy Frodo on the other hand, strangled himself twice. Once while in my car, I left the window open and was walking to the driver's side and he jumped out of the window and hung himself up on his leash. Damndest thing. The other time was with a choke chain, he was loose on my porch, baby gate across the opening, summertime, I was just inside he went to sleep on the porch, woke up and the round part of the choke chain went between the slats and turned. He panicked, and twisted himself around and around that it took three of us to free him while he let out strangled screams. Frodo did spend some time on a chain at my house and never had a problem being chained. Breaking the chain and getting run over by a truck did him no good though. 

Frodo did have behavioral problems from the day I brought him home, stubborn and dominant. His being my first GSD, really my first dog that I was responsible for, did not help matters because I made every mistake there is. But I did not chain him until he was already showing serious aggression. Chaining did not seem to make him worse, but getting hit by the truck and being in pain did. And that was a by product of being chained. Being loose in the trailer I was renting, or being crated in the trailer, was not an option as it was summer and it was far too hot in there during the day, the dog would have been smothered. The place was $200/mo to rent and I truly did not have the money to fence, to get AC to do anything different. I had to keep him crated for eight weeks after the leg was broken and I did that on the porch -- because it was more humane. 

So I have had one bad experience chaining a dog and three that were not bad at all. My parents' dogs spend a little of each day chained and they do no hang themselves. 

I think you have to use common sense when you tie a dog out. You have to think of things in advance. You have to make sure you are not chaining the dog near a fence that he may try to jump, etc. 

I had a friend who worked all day and put up a kennel so her dog could potty during the day and have a nice safe area to live in. As the summer got hotter, she decided to put a tarp up over the kennel to provide shade. Somehow the dog climbed up and chewed the tarp and figured out a way to hang himself in the tarp. The dog died. My point is that stuff DOES happen. It happens to dogs left inside in crates. It happens to dogs left outside in kennels. It happens to chained dogs. But if the dog was chained, it was the owner's fault. 

Did I mention that Heidi who has never been chained was hung while I waited outside the window watching while she was being groomed. Yeah, the groomer left her connected on the table while she went over to the phone and answered it. The dog fell off the table and was hung. Two other groomers had to run over and get her back on the table. When I went in to collect the dog she told me the Heidi was the most fearful GSD she had ever met and she used to raise them. She did not bother to tell me about how she hung the dog. She did not know that I was watching while people and dogs walked right by her and she did not bark or back off, she allowed strangers to pet her, allowed, this woman to work on her. I watched the whole episode. Guess I am still mad that happened to my pup. When I told her that maybe she was scared because she dropped her off the table, the woman said "she jumped off the table." When you chain a dog or leash a dog, you cannot give them the opportunity to jump and kill themselves. However, a chain can become tangled, dogs can panic, and strangle themsleves. 

I am not an advocate of chaining dogs. I understand that some people do not have as many choices as other people. 

I had to chain Jazzy because she went through my window three times and was trying like **** to kill Arwen. This is why I built my kennels. Arwen could not be crated, she broke her teeth busting out of crates and hurt herself ripping them up -- wire crates and airline crates. If I was not home, she could not be crated. At that time, as a temporary measure I chained Jazzy. First out front on a trolly -- that lasted one day. Then with ten bricks of wood chips, I trolly-chained her behind the shed in the back yard and put up a temporary fence around her to discourage animals from getting into her. That worked until my kennels were completed. Jazzy did not hang herself. 

I am against making this scenario illegal. What alternative did I have with Jazzy? Give me an alternative and I have an answer for it. I could not crate her for ten + hours a day she was a high energy working line dog that would go crazy. Leaving her in the back yard and Arwen in the house took out a glass window THREE separate times! (I still haven't fixed that window from the last Jazzy attack.) 

Jazzy was three years old at the time. She was my brother's dog and he could not have her where he was living. Jazzy is eight years old now and living with my brother and very happy. If it would have been illegal to tether Jazzy, she would have had to end up at the pound. I was completely out of choices. Building the kennels took more than a month. It seemed like forever. 

I think it is better to keep a dog safe (from the gas chamber, from the road, from traps in the woods, from farmer's shot guns, etc.). Sometimes this means tethering the dog. Not everyone on this board has plenty of money and a stay-at-home adult. Not everyone can take the dog to work with them, or to doggy day care. Not everyone has a beautiful home with a full basement and plenty of space to have an indoor kennel, or to keep dogs separated in different parts of the house. Not everyone who tethers a dog is an idiot who does not care for the dog.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I appreciate your response, and oftentimes tend to think our opinions are based on the enviroment in which we live.
> 
> In my neighborhood, some dogs are loose (I live on an Island with six houses), other sit outside on longline ropes, including my dog Timber. Why, because he prefers to be outside instead of being loose in the house. And my guy is very protective of my property, so he is leased for a part of the day.


With all due respect, the fact that you leave him on a tie-out may account for his "protection" of your property. Chaining, tying out, whatever you want to call it, increases a dog's aggressive reactivity. I am not talking about dogs that are tied out while the owner is working in the yard, or building a kennel. I am talking about dogs that live that way as a matter of course. Even when the dog is only out like that for "part" of the day, if it is a regular part of the dog's life, there are going to be issues with frustration and suppression of the fight or flight instinct.
The fact that you live on an island, with a total of six houses, makes your experience outside the norm and you can't expect your experience to translate for anyone who lives in a more urban or suburban environment.
Of course, the above is only my opinion and as such is worth roughly 5 cents (inflation).
Sheilah


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Lately, you and I have spend to much time agreeing wth each other. I had a rescue that I put in the back of my truck which has a camper topper. I would leave the side windows open a bit and the darn dog opened a window one day and jumped out. Fortunately, it happened in my driveway.

As I mentioned before, Timber loves sitting in the back yard looking for my neighbor's dog and watching the boats go by, while chained, on actually long line nylon rope. 

I let my permanent dogs choose. Timbe would rather be outside even though he has a free run of the house. My female, Paris Hilton, prefers to stay inside.

I appreciate your replies, and the amount of thought that has gone into them.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

It is obvious you care about your dogs. Past and present. 

We are not in disagreement, about that. 

I feel your point is no more laws, no more bans? 
Correct? 
Do not tell you how to keep your dogs. You seem to only have an accident here and there with trail and error. You learned as you went. You know what you are doing. 
Do not tell people they cannot chain or tie out their dogs, they may not have a choice? Right? Do I understand what you are saying. That is fine for you. You work at it to get it right. 

For me, this is not about me or my rights, it is about the dogs. There are people who do not care about their pets as much as you. No one called them idoits (well on here anyway), they are just uneducated. 

I am not just speaking to you. Or trying to get you to change your mind. You do not live in my community. I want to know your opinon and others, so I can know people's opinons that might be against this if it ever does come up in my city.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Hardly anyone mentions where they live, or whether it is rural, suburban or a large city. As I said before I live in a fllod plain, and would love tohave a fenced in play area. but cannot. So my dogs have a choice. On a nylon rope outside, or free to roam the house. One chooses to lay in the sun and watch the boats go by. The other would prefer to stay in the house.

You made the following comment: "For me, this is not about me or my rights, it is about the dogs. There are people who do not care about their pets as much as you. No one called them idoits (well on here anyway), they are just uneducated."

I agree, but just maybe education and strict enforcement of existing laws is more important then passing another law that will never be enforced, and if it is harmful to some.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I live in the country. Some people chain their dogs year round, some people let their dogs run free. The Amish fellow alway has his dog with him. Some dogs are kept inside, some outside. 

There are a few I know that have been tethered all their lives. They are farm dogs, and I suppose they have a purpose. There were holes cut in the side of a barn to let them in and out. Just recently a fence was put up for the dogs. I do not see their situation as improved at all. They have the same area: a little section in the barn, and a little mud pitted fenced area maybe 10 foot by 20 foot. 

You might see this as a great improvement to being chained. I assure you that it is not. All the arguments against chaining apply. Only now it is barrier aggression, instead of chaining. The dogs a full of mud. They are not family pets. They are not brought in when the family comes home from work. They are not released to go fishing with any of them. They stay in their muddy little pit next to the road. Ungroomed, long coated shepherd or shepherd crosses. 

Certainly it is sad. They look like nice dogs. But these dogs would not be covered under your new chaining law. 

The sad thing is that if they put down a bit of concrete within that fenced area, and gave the dogs a good bath, they COULD take them inside, or drive uptown to take them for a walk, to the vet, to a petstore, to training classes. In this case it is the chronic mud that is so cruel, not chains. 

They currently have a leash law in our state that is state wide and it is not enforced at all in my neighborhood. I see no reason why a tether law would be enforced. Of the dogs in my neighborhood, whether chained or loose or kenneled, or inside with the family, these two dogs are the only ones that appear to be suffering and neglected. I do not like making laws that apply to everyone, but are only meant for a few. I do not like making laws because SOME people are careless or ignorant. My problem is that when they start making laws, they never stop where they ought to. 

If they make a law about tethering here, they will add something about speuter, and because one or two people in our county were found hoarding animals in the past few years, they will set limit laws as well. Sorry, I am violently opposed to any added legislation that targets dog owners.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I completly understand that point. How you feel about dog owner laws. 
Even though I will still try to have the last word and convience you it is no hurting you or owners it is protecting dogs.









Since this is going on and on. Thank you for your responses by the way, I am interested in hearing them. 

I want to take this in a little different direction for a moment, someone earlier mentioned about providing basic necessities to have a dog. 

Rescues that I know of around here will not place a dog in a home without a fenced in yard. Even more so for former strays. There are height requirments too, even more if they are placing jumpers. 

Are you a breeder, Selzer? 
I really do not know. 
Maybe you or someone else can answer the following question. 

*I am not against all breeders*. I am for the ones that care about the breed. 

When a good breeder sells is the owner of the new pup required to have a fenced in yard? 
OR are there home visits? 

Just curious. Maybe I should put it up as a thread. I really want to know. 

I was having a phone conversation the other day with someone, about a rescue. They were saying rescues should up hold the same standards as breeders, and vice versa. Maybe I should ask on the breeders forum, what they require of owners. 

I just really want to know for my own education.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am a breeder and I will go out on a limb. 

I do not require an prospective owner to have a fenced yard. However, I want to feel that the person is responsible before selling the puppy. So for one person, the answer to that question would be sorry, dude, you need a fence. For another, it would be, ok. It depends on the level of experience, and the intentions for the puppy.  

I always ask if someone rents or owns, but all of it kind of builds together in a case against or for someone. 

I am mostly concerned with training and what plans they have for the dog. 

No, I do not do home checks. There really are limits to how much money you can spend. Sorry, but no one donates to breeders.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Considering I agree with you, I think you forwarded to the wrong person. 

I don't want to inflate your ego, but am glad to know you are a breeder. My hunch is I have found another good one.

I do rescue and home inspections. In general, I would prefer a fence, expecially in urban areas. When 100 cars an hour go by someone's home and that do not have a fence, I will not allow my rescue to be adopted. If the location is rural, the people know something about the breed, and traffic is minimal that is fine on my end. Of course, a dog in a rural area could get hit and killed by a vehicle, but the odds of that happening are so much higher in a city.

When people render an opinion, that is why I want to know their enviroment.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

If I could copy a thread, I would insert the thread "How do I teach my dog to poop in a certain area?" Right here, it is a question from ryt, which could be a troll, I dunno. 

Anyway it has some very concrete arguments as to why dogs should not live outside on a chain. Made by some people I respect from this board. Do not know them personally, but I usally agree with what they say on here. 

Do not know where they are for this thread, maybe it is because it is a "law", actually more of an city ordinance. 
People do not want more dog laws, I get that. 
My DH agrees with you, Selzer. You already have the sense not to do this (chain your dogs out to live), you just do not want anymore laws about dog ownership. I get that point. 
My DH said what if I did not have a choice?







I just laughed I could not believe he brought up the same point. 

I just said, then do not own a dog.









Anyway if where this ryt person lived he had these laws no one would have to tell him why he cannot chain puppies to a dog house in the middle of a forest WITH bears.









Just thought the thread was interesting and applied to what I am trying to say here.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

OK, I think I did it. Here is the link that states other posts, that are reasons not to chain out. 


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post802309


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Please read my posts and respond accordingly. One of my dogs loves sitting outside in the sun on a long nylon lead and watching for people that pass by, and boats. We do live on a river.

The female would prefer, after swimming to spend her time, unleased, in the house. She is a rescue, but very gentle and well trained.

In my opinion, opps time to leave


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry Timber1, I was responding to the posts that had happened since I last read it. I do that all the time. You had wondered why people do not say where they live, so I did respond to that. 

I don't necessarily agree with the fence in the city as opposed to the country. In the city, people drive 25-30mph and are always expecting somebody's brat to come flying into the road. Out where I am people drive 55-70mph and will speed up if they see a dog in the road. (My neighbors said the truck that hit Frodo sped up to hit him.) There may not be as many cars, but there are fewer good semaritans who will bundle a wounded animal in a car and take it to the vet. 

And cars are only one danger. Coyotes will lure dogs out and then kill them. People leave poison out for varmints, works on dogs too. Farmers do not take kindly to dogs pestering their cows, horses, and goats. Farmers will shoot dogs going after chickens and such. Where the wildlife is, there too are hunters and trappers. Most hunters will not bother a dog unless it is menacing or running deer. But dogs will get stuck in traps. 

This is why I would rather see them chained then loose. A loose dog out here, is likely to go from healthy dog to dead dog in moments.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your reply is precisly why I asked where folks live. I live on a small Island and the folks are extremely dog friendly. About half the dogs are outside off lease. Mostly labs. I do keep Timber leased because he is protective.

The kicker with having no fence in a busy traffic area;as I said, some of the resues I have had fostered either run and wander. In heavy traffic, I do ger paranoid.

Unlikeme, most of my neighbors are blue collar retirees from places like Evinrude Motors, Briggs and Stratton, etc. And if any of these folks saw someone speed up to hit a dog, the person would pay dearly, and not because the people that saw it happen called the cops.

That is why I asked about for location, and why other have differing opinions.

Finally, if someone intentionally sped up and killed my dog, they would pay dearly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, in fact, that person COULD sue me for damage to his truck. 

We have a leash law in Ohio, and my dog had broken his chain clasp and ran across the street. The responsibility was mine. We have to be responsible in containing our dogs.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am not sure what you want me to say to your posts.









You love your dog. You do not chain it out all it's life. 

You give it a choice. 

Most of these ordinances are not all about NO chaining at all. 

Just short chains, type of tethering, hours of tethering, etc. 

I do not have any issues with you or anyone for that matter. 
Just posting how I feel. 

Wondering how other people feel. 

So if I am ever in a debate with someone that feels it is OK, for dogs to completely live outside on a short chain, or worse, I know what to say back. 

Also, do you want to know where people live? I live in the burbs I guess. I kinda small very quaint and pleasant city.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Thanks, yes it helps to know where people live.

For example, as a rescue we take many dogs, and some are aggressive, or just plain runners. So my friend Cathy takes the runners and the more violent ones. She lives on a farm, has a large fenced play area for the dogs, and even a larger one for her horses. So when trying to respond to anyone's comments, it help to know the environment they live in.


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