# PPD framework for 9 week GSD male.



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

How is everyone doing? We just purchased another GSD last week. We had to put down our 4 year old female about 6 months ago. She had Lymphoma. She was our first GSD and we def learned A LOT of lessons with her. She had moderate/Severe Elbow and Hip dysphasia. She had many medical problems but she was a very great dog. Once we found out about the hip and elbow problems, my SchH training stopped. I'm still a newbie to training...She was a great family dog. 

We finally decided it was time to buy another one. I got male pick of the litter. He came home with us on the 8th. I'm not trying to rush any training or push him fast. I don't want to mess him up. I'm taking it slow with him....I understand any actual protection work won't happen until he is mature. 

I'm going to throw out my goals and any other information you might find useful. My main worry is breaking the dogs spirit or doing too much, too soon. I'm all for motivational/positive training. I very interested/determined on learning dog training methods. Everyone trainer has to be a newbie at some point. I understand I will need professional help when it comes to bite work/ and having a decoy. 

My goal is to raise Bane(his name) the right way from the start and try to avoid as many set backs as possible. He is a quick learner. He does very well with Sit and Platz....Only took a few minutes to learn the commands. We are trying to take him out and experience as many different things as possible. He loves playing rough with other dogs, which I limit or avoid it all together. We have a 7 year old female Shih Tzu also....He is always wanting to play rough with her....He is a little alligator right now....His teeth are brutal on our feet. We have been trying to redirect him to a toy when he does this....But my wife doesn't tolerate him doing it to our youngest boy. She grabs him by the back of the neck and shakes him....Not for sure if this is okay or not...He is getting better about not biting our feet. He still loves the hands. 

A little about me....I'm 31 years old, married, and have two boys. They are 1 1/2 and 4 1/2 years old. I think one of my biggest challenges will be keeping everyone on the same page and staying consistent. My wife is a stay at home mom and I'm a refinery operator who works shift work. 

Before picking out which puppy we wanted, we went over all the test results they went through at 7 weeks of age. I played with each male...For some reason I liked Bane. He wasn't bothered one bit when they dropped the metal bucket on the floor. He showed great prey drive, solid nerves, great grip, and shook the "prey" nicely. Before selecting the breeder told me Bane was the pick of the litter. So I'm hoping this will account for something in the years to come.. 

Sorry for the novel, but I wanted to provide as much information as possible. Feel free to comment with any questions or things I need to focus on. 

Jeremy


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

stop shaking the pup by it's neck fur. you can gently pull the dog
away usuing his neck fur and raise your voice a little. find a trainer
and explain to them your goals.


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

I didn't explain it right....She is grabbing him by the coat fur behind the neck when correcting him....I explained to her that we need to start redirecting him to something else....Thanks for posting your concerns. I agree with you....Trainers in my area are slim to none... I plan to do most formal training at the kennel I bought him from. Thanks for the comment


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would not correct a young puppy for doing what they naturally do....biting is a given and either keep the puppy very busy with chews or crate him so he won't be trying to chew on the kids or your little dog. 
GSD's play very rough and it isn't fair to your other dog.

I would get a flirtpole and wear him out with it. Use his mealtime to track him(tracking is mental exercise)

There are times when pups act naughty, when they are overtired....so make sure pup is in a good frame of mind when allowed to be with your kids and little dog. 
If you want a confident dog that has stable temperament, you need to keep the corrections to a minimum, and redirect him or manage him...set him up to succeed so he won't need correcting. Pups can learn manners without it breaking their spirit or confidence. 
Good to hear you have the breeder to work with you on training.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Man, Bane is a popular name right now . I am also about to get a pup that I will be doing bitework with. I am working closely with my training director and club to ensure that I don't mess him up (even though I'm sure I will mess up a ton lol). The biggest thing we've been discussing is not to inhibit any drives...not much obedience, never chasing the dog down to take something away, no corrections, setting the pup up for success, etc...Outside of not inhibiting the bite, the most important (it seems at this age) is to maintain a conflict-free relationship with the puppy. This is why I will be, as onyx-girl pointed out, only setting the puppy up for success. If he gets something in his mouth I'll call him over, say things like "whatchu got?! That's nice, brav"etc and try and get the dog to hold it while I pet him etc...this is supposed to nurture the dog's relationship with me...I've made the mistake of doing the typical chase down, and take whatever it is away, and it leads to conflict between the dog and I when I step into the picture in bitework (crummy grip, spitting the sleeve, chewing, etc). If it's something he really can't have I run away from him yelling, "what do you have??" Excitedly and trade him for food when he gets to me.

I have a one year old rottie that I am working until I get my pup. I've implemented all these things I was told and it's really improved everything for us. Although she's older and we're doing obedience now. I guess the biggest advice I'd give is, make sure you have a good Training director/club/trainer that you are working closely with. There is a lot of simple things that "normal" people do with their dogs, that can screw up and cause problems in the pup later on when you ask it to do bitework. Your wife really needs to be on board with this too, otherwise I would suggest crating the pup while your at work and just have the wife let him out for potty/food breaks....but little interaction. Bitework/protection work is serious work. The dogs can be house dogs...but there are more rules (or less, depending on how you look at it lol) and things to watch out for.

Who's your breeder? Is he from lines that do well in bitework? Good luck! And we love puppy pics around here!


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is your wife holding him behind his neck and shaking him?
stop shaking him.



doggiedad said:


> stop shaking the pup by it's neck fur. you can gently pull the dog away usuing his neck fur and raise your voice a little. find a trainer and explain to them your goals.





Jmoore728 said:


> I didn't explain it right....She is grabbing him by the coat fur behind the neck when correcting him....
> 
> 
> I explained to her that we need to start redirecting him to something else....Thanks for posting your concerns. I agree with you....Trainers in my area are slim to none... I plan to do most formal training at the kennel I bought him from. Thanks for the comment


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

There wasn't any shaking...She was correcting him by grabbing his coat fur behind the neck and re-directing him. Me stating she was shaking him is false...My assumption was wrong. 

As far as the pedigree he comes from, it looks very good. But nothing is promised. I just want to make **** sure I do things the right way and bring out all of his potential....
Banes dad is Omako Vom Fleisherheim. He will be 3 years old in January and his protection/bite work is coming along very nice. The breeder said he is doing very well... 

Banes Grandfather is Ken Vom Rosenblick. Ken had great scores in his protection work (SchH 3)I think he scored 95, 96, and 94...I understand SchH is very different than actual PP work. Banes Grandfather Ken came from Dux de Cuatro Flores. 

We have had Bane for 8 days....My main focus right now is taking him to as many places as I can and some basic obedience with treats. 

My wife is on board. I'm keeping her busy reading and watching different things regarding raising this puppy....She understands that everything needs to stay positive and no negative corrections should be taking place at this time. We have this well established now.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jmoore728 said:


> There wasn't any shaking...She was correcting him by grabbing his coat fur behind the neck and re-directing him. Me stating she was shaking him is false...My assumption was wrong.
> 
> As far as the pedigree he comes from, it looks very good. But nothing is promised. I just want to make **** sure I do things the right way and bring out all of his potential....
> Banes dad is Omako Vom Fleisherheim. He will be 3 years old in January and his protection/bite work is coming along very nice. The breeder said he is doing very well...
> ...


You asked what to do to lay the framework for bitework....you've had several answers. That's great that he comes from lines at least performing in IPO. IPO is def different than protection. Hopefully your pup will be able to handle the unique pressure applied during protection. Unfortunately a lot of dogs can't cut it in protection, regardless of training. It's harder to find in showlines (it's hard to find nowadays in lots of lines), but that doesn't mean it's not there, only time will tell. 

Is the kennel name German Shepherd Breeders, Puppies & Trained Dogs for Sale | Fleischerheim German Shepherds Holy moly is that a huge kennel!! In over 5 states, cray cray! I'm glad you have a trainer to work with.


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Bane is from Brush Creek Kennels 
vom Haus Berg German Shepherds - Stillwater, OK.

My vet was into breeding and titling dogs with her back in his day. He is still very active with the kennel I believe. She took a break from breeding for a couple years and worked on dog rescue. She said 2 years of that was all she could take. I'm sure they see all kinds of neglect, and God knows what else. I trust her 100%. 

I met both of Banes Parents. His mother is very confident....Dad is also. The kennel had a Scott Hedger seminar set up but due to scheduling conflicts, it got re scheduled for next spring. Banes dad was going to be worked in the seminar. I will have to wait a little longer on seeing him in action, I do plan on working with the breeder on any formal training. They don't do much outside training anymore, they try to focus on helping their customers that own their dogs.


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

As far working bloodline/ show line blood lines, I'm still learning the different traits. I know the breeder focuses on keeping the working traits in her dogs. She also likes a certain look, but focuses on keeping the breed to the standard and trying to improve it. She really liked the development of Omako's (Mako) protection training so she used him as a stud for this litter. If protection work turns out being something that won't fit this dog, I will seek other jobs for him... I'm hoping I can gain a lot of experience with this dog


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

That's awesome, sounds like at the very least he'd be a fun sport dog, and hopefully you can do protection.  Sounds like you have a lot of people around to help guide you. It's so fun working dogs....and very addicting.


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

I'm sure I will have a lot of dumb questions throughout this learning process.....we are about to take him to the lake and out to some other different places to adventure around....I'm sure i will be asking more questions tonight. Thanks for the help and encouragement,,..I will def need it....!!, lol


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Took Bane out with us today while the wife took some pictures of the boys. I was hoping to get him around some children and strangers. He got to check out the geese, some water fountains, etc. A guy had a pit bull walking him... Bane wasn't thrilled about him. We kept a good distance from them....

Later, I had Bane leashed and we were walking. An older couple was talking to my wife, so me and Bane started towards them....He basically told me he wasnt having it and and I wasn't going to force it. He backed away a little and watched us talking to the couple. Again, I didn't want to push him, so I let him have all the room he needed. We were in a new environment, and he is only 9 weeks old....Is this common? Am I being too paranoid? From everything I've read, the first 16 weeks of the puppy's life will shape his future.,...Obviously this has me freaked out. I want to get it right. I want a very confident dog. I think it will get a lot better as he gets a lot more encounters/repetitions....Today was his first day to encounter strangers... 

When we bought our first German Shepherd, she was already 4-5 months old, so I didn't have to do the young puppy thing....

He does great with my in laws, and loves it over there.. But he has been over there 3-4 times already....So far he has done very well with smaller dog breeds. Still very cautious with large dog breeds and strangers....I'm pretty sure this is normal and can only get better from here on...I hope....I paid a decent price for the dog, so I'm trying to ask as many questions as I can and I'm def trying to stay on the safe side of things. Hopefully I'm not being a major thorn in your butts already.....I keep telling myself....Patience, Patience....A lot of Patience


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

I did realize I have A LOT to learn.....:crazy:


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Haha, I'm sure others will chime in, I would suggest the "raising a pup" threads and stickies on here. I wouldn't let one instance freak you out, but to be honest it's not something I would have liked to see either. But remember, your worry goes right down the lead. I don't like to think of socializing, I like to think of it as exposure. I would really focus more on walking and *seeing* things. You don't want to ever force him into meeting someone if he's scared (good job there btw), because you want him to trust that you have his back.

I've been working with a friend who breeds working dogs (not GSDs) and it's unreal how stable these litters have been. I've been around them with first time vet visits, first time out of mama's pen, first time outside, first time meeting new people....there was never any hesitation. They walked around like they owned the place. One little guy was rough housing and ran into a fence, injurying his back hip. We had to go pick him up from a few hours away to take him to the vet. We stopped at a crazy loud, busy, gas station/truck stop. I take this *8 week* old pup over to a wood chip area to potty and he is so solid. There were people, loud cars, other dogs, highway...and this guy was not cowering, wanted to say hi to everyone, ears up, relaxed...none of it was phasing him. Not all the people, dogs, trucks, highway...nothing. He was happy just to be with me and watch it all...hoping for a pat from whoever came along....that is *ideally* what I'd want to see in a puppy, even 8/9/10 weeks old. There is no reason for him/her to be scared of anything I listed. There is nothing that has happened to him to make him afraid it. A startle, a cautious curiosity? Sure, as long as the recovery time is good. I don't think you have much to worry about, just keep up with the exposure, read when something is too much for him, and be aware of how he is acting.

Edit: Oh, and don't give the baby "it's okay" talk to him when he's showing fear...I believe it teaches them that you like that behavior and that reaction...just ignore it, like you did. I had a dog that spent 6 months in a house that babied the crud out of her and did that "it's okay baby, mamas here" stuff and the dog would jump and startle over anything and look to me for comfort/praise. It took a lot of time of re-directing and ignoring to fix it, but she's fine now...because she was acting like that more from her environment being raised, than her genetics....it's always amazing to me the behaviors we can create in our dogs.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jmoore728 said:


> Took Bane out with us today while the wife took some pictures of the boys. I was hoping to get him around some children and strangers. He got to check out the geese, some water fountains, etc. A guy had a pit bull walking him... Bane wasn't thrilled about him. We kept a good distance from them....
> 
> Later, I had Bane leashed and we were walking. *An older couple was talking to my wife, so me and Bane started towards them....He basically told me he wasnt having it and and I wasn't going to force it. He backed away a little and watched us talking to the couple. Again, I didn't want to push him, so I let him have all the room he needed. * We were in a new environment, and he is only 9 weeks old....Is this common? Am I being too paranoid? From everything I've read, the first 16 weeks of the puppy's life will shape his future.,...Obviously this has me freaked out. I want to get it right. I want a very confident dog. I think it will get a lot better as he gets a lot more encounters/repetitions....Today was his first day to encounter strangers...
> 
> ...


So what ultimately happened? Did he overcome the fear and go towards them?


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

you can ignore them when they act fearful (to help) but at the end of the day, they either have the nerves or they dont. i had a pup that would be scared of very random things. first time he saw a paper bag blowing in the wind he barked at it. he was scared of a metal chair that he accidentally knocked over. barked at it too. grew up to have less than desirable nerves. he had prey drive but no way in the world he could do schutzund. no way he could pass the temperment test.

had another pup that the moment he stepped off the plane at 8 weeks old was never scared of a single thing. when i let him out of his crate into the house for the first time, he too acted like he owned the place. took off running and explored every room. he was exposed to fireworks, guns shots, chickens, different surfaces all before 12 weeks. he swam almost to the middle of the pond chasing some ducks before 12 weeks. he either ignored or was curious of the new strange things. grew up to be an absolutely solid and fearless dog. imo pups should be curious of things.

the dogs from the website looks more like showline than working line. hope the breeder really know what they're doing mixing the lines.


----------



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Yeah, it has been fine every since...Not for sure what happened that day...If something makes him nervous, he gets over it quick and gets curious towards it...I hope this is what's supposed to be happening with a 12-13 week old puppy....He was younger at that time


----------



## maxleia (Jan 6, 2014)

My dog is PPD3, and totally stable and reliable in any situation, kids, dogs whatever and he is a beast when it is required and he is not 3 yet. He will down stay outside a restaurant while I have dinner and ignore anyone or anything that approaches him. 

When I first got him my hands were mostly bloody as was my other dog from the alligator with the sharp teeth. Like the other folks said corrections are fine, but never at the expense of his confidence, he is going to need all his confidence. 

If I could go back in time 2.5 years and give myself advice it would be:

1. Socialize, socialize, socialize - people and environments. Other dogs he should only ignore they are irrelevant to his life. Max and I used to do heel patterns through dog parks ignoring everything. Take him everywhere you can, restaurants, parks, beaches whatever his life is going to include. All the socialization aside, not all dogs are cupcakes. 

2. Be prepared to earn your leadership, a good hard dominant dog isn't always terribly biddable so be prepared to earn your leadership. This has nothing to do with being harsh or breaking his spirit as you put it, this has to do with being fair, deserving and respectful. If you correct him and you feel angry he will feel it, he may submit through fear or pain, you do not want this. He should concede because YOU are asking. If you get frustrated or annoyed, give yourself a time out till you can be clear headed, calm and fair. You should never sacrifice his confidence.

3. Buy a nice pillow tug toy, play often, and let him win when he bites full and hard. 

4. Don't run your puppy, don't play fetch or flirt stick with him. Swimming is your friend until you get the all clear on his hips and elbows. In the wild he would be rolling around with his litter mates all day, this doesn't suit our human lives so we do high impact short term exercise. Let him roll around with you and have short walks as often as possible. Low impact and often. Short tug games is a win to, and while you doing this you can get him prepped for a good out and a good bite command. Wait, watch, bite, etc. 

5. Keep him lean and mean, Prey Model Raw is the tool I use for this.


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

No experience with PPD. I do want to say be careful at his age in walking him in public. I would hold him instead as he hasn't had all his shots. He can still go out and socialize, but I would keep his paws off the ground as much as possible.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would limit the dogs exposure to other dogs outside of your family's . 
Dog is young . We don't know where you are -- weather conditions could be extreme , very cold. A young dog can not be outside for long . They don't have good internal temperature regulation at this age -- chill quickly . The energy for that plus exercise plus growth plus stress is going to impact.
The dog can get the social experience in the home . The experience the dog has with you and your family will set the foundation for trust and confidence . Management . Some changes need to be made so that the pup doesn't maul the kids and catch trouble .
In the meantime locate training clubs -- even a well run obedience class in some church basement.

Personal Protection? the site says "We personally prefer a dog that still has strong nerves and won't run off when he needs to stand his ground and protect his family. " that is not a personal preference - it is how it should be . They say this after stating " show dog breeders focus is to make sure conformation is correct and the working line breeders are ensuring we keep the strong working ability of the German Shepherd intact. Both are EXTREMELY important to ensure the future of the German Shepherd as it was meant to be. We need them both to protect our breed. " 
??
why not investigate into local schutzhund clubs . Take your dog out as an observer . See the reaction from some distance to see how the dog takes the commotion . When age appropriate have the training director evaluate the dog.


----------



## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm getting a pup import, working DDR line. Litter specific for PP/LE. I started reading this thread in hopes to get some advice. It strayed away from topic with correction etc. I'm hoping to bump this thread to refocus to OP title.

Let's take into account that we love, play, socialize, expose to different environments and begin obedience as with any working line pup.

With Schutzhund or IPO there are clubs, but no PP clubs that I'm aware of.

At what age do you get pup tested and get a PP trainer?

At what age do you start bite work?

By a month to month or a 1,2,3 / ABC what would the framework be for raising a PP puppy? Would you recommend just training for IPO/Sch until dog is mature enough for real PP to keep pup-dog active/working then break off to do PP?


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> stop shaking the pup by it's neck fur. you can gently pull the dog
> away usuing his neck fur and raise your voice a little. find a trainer
> and explain to them your goals.



YEs he is right your dog is young, You want a PPD work on building the pups confidence for now because real training wont start for a year. YOu start too early your dog will be a wreck. JMHO 


Do it all in prey for now make everything fun.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sealdoc said:


> I'm getting a pup import, working DDR line. Litter specific for PP/LE. I started reading this thread in hopes to get some advice. It strayed away from topic with correction etc. I'm hoping to bump this thread to refocus to OP title.
> 
> Let's take into account that we love, play, socialize, expose to different environments and begin obedience as with any working line pup.
> 
> ...


I don't really think there are ABC-123's in training a young pup to become a PP dog. Get with a good group though, it is not something a novice should do on their own. 
Keep the confidence leve high and work on your bond. Don't squash the drives. 
Your goal is to have a well trained obedient dog that will bite on command without equipment? That can be done in SDA, IPO, PSA....I'd get with one of those clubs~ like you posted, seldom are there personal protection dog 'clubs' available, but now and then some people do get together to train for that type dog. 
In my state there are a couple of groups that train PP scenarios but don't have an affiliation with anything. Obedience isn't precision focused. They hold protection challenges according to their own rules/judges are just people they choose that may have some sport experience or LEO K9 handlers. 
Here is a video they compiled recently showing their bitework training https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152302752004369


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it's hard to give advice because most people want a watch dog - someone who will sound the alarm and provide a deterrent.

I would be curious to look at the pedigree .

get a dog that is sound and stable and continue with that , allowing the dog to mature . There is no time frame and no framework of for things to be crossed off a list.

The dog needs to perform for you first and foremost as a family dog . You need to live normal, the dog comfortable and mannered to go to places where you need to go . The chances of you needing the dog for personal protection are what? 
That bond and trust that you develop through fair training are more important than bite work. That will come with maturity and with necessity . 
When the dog is mature you can join an American Street Ring club .
The decoy I hire is a decoy with ASR -- AMERICAN STREET RING 



 
the dog must have judgement and not be hyper prey excited .


----------



## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

carmspack said:


> it's hard to give advice because most people want a watch dog - someone who will sound the alarm and provide a deterrent.
> 
> The dog needs to perform for you first and foremost as a family dog . You need to live normal, the dog comfortable and mannered to go to places where you need to go . The chances of you needing the dog for personal protection are what?


Carmspack - Yes, family dog first!!!! I want a normal family dog that can be taken anywhere with us. We travel extensively and we always brought our last GSD with us everywhere. I want to do same with this one. He was extremely socialized, but a fear biter if to close or would back down if approaching. 

Im paraphrasing someone but in short - Having a dog that can do PP is like having a 4x4. You may use it only once a year, but your glad to have it when you need it.


----------



## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

This is the pedigree for the pup I will be getting:

Dask Jirkova Dvora x Wiky od Roubenky


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

use it once a year? if your not depending on your dog for a work situation you will use it more like once in a life time if you are lucky(unlucky)

THe man will have to get through a VERY VERY angry dog then take some nasty angonizing bites of what??? 500 psi? 

The man will have to be drunk or on some kind of drugs, ON Top of this I dont know about you but a good owner will be kicking the mans butt with their dog, thats a lot of pain and abuse to deal with so who is going to ask for it when there are a million other easy targets? THe man would have to have a personal agenda or be so high, or have a nopolian complex.

If you get a chance see if you can watch PP in action with a good dog, when the dog thinks there is a possible threat and the decoy goes after them that dog will do ANYTHING it can to survive and win, that includes sometimes biting faces, chests fingers, whatever it takes. Its not something a sane person is going to cross the line with. PP is defensive NOT offensive. If you work security you may need your dog more often.


Police dogs i am assuming get in plenty of fights because they are offensive


----------



## Sealdoc (Feb 16, 2003)

The 4x4 analogy was for 4x4, not for PP. If i had a PP dog and he defended me yearly I would move to a better area, lol


----------

