# 3-5 year old GSD with degenerative myelopathy???



## vickip9 (Mar 28, 2012)

Is it possible for a 3-5 year old GSD to already have DM?? 

I'm not sure of his exact age as I adopted him from someone who was getting rid of him on Craigslist. His former owner claimed he was 3 years old and the vet seems to think that looks pretty accurate. She estimated that he was between 3-5 years old. 

So here's the problem..... I have noticed that my boy has a strange gait in his hind legs. He rear end sways when he walks/trots and his back legs almost seem to cross over rather than swing straight back and forth. For example, when trotting, his back right leg will swing forward to meet his front left leg. And his back left leg will swing forward to meet his frong right leg. However, he DOES NOT drag his feet or limp or curl his feet under or anything like that, which are other typical symptoms of DM. 

I tried getting video of it, but could not get it to load to this site. 

Anyway, I took him to the vet yesterday to have him checked out and the only "test" she did was to push pretty hard on his spine right between his two back legs and this caused him quite a bit of pain. His back legs started quivering and they seemed to give out a little, causing him to not be able to stand up firm while she was pushing on it. Now, I'm no veterinarian or anything, but if someone was pushing that hard on MY spine, I would probably quiver and drop to my knees as well!!! 

I wanted to get a 2nd opinion, so I've made an appointment at a different vet for early next week. But in the meantime I wanted to get opinions from all of you. 

What do you all think? Does it really sound like DM? Is that even possible in a dog that's only 3-5 years old?


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

Personally, I would not waste my money with a second opinion from a regular GP vet.

Go to an Ortho vet/specialist because that is exactly where the other vet will probably send you anyways. I have found that for things like this, regular vets are clueless unless you have a really spectacular one.

Good thoughts for you guys that it is nothing serious! It could also be hip dysphasia...JMO though.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Before jumping to the DM conclusion, I think it might be worth doing hip xrays to see if this stuff is coming from bad hips.


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## vickip9 (Mar 28, 2012)

I will definitely talk to the 2nd vet about x-rays as I was actually surprised the 1st vet didn't do them. I'm *hoping* it's just hip dysplasia, but the first vet DID do some leg extensions to test his reaction to how his hips were moving, and he didn't even flinch. But when she was pushing on his spine, this is what seemed to cause him the pain. 

I would LOVE to take him to an orthopedic vet for a specialists opinion, but the only one I can find close by (Overland Park, KS) requires a referral from a regular vet. Perhaps I can ask the 2nd vet for a referral if she's not able to definiatively diagnose what's going on. 

Thanks for your suggestions, Kam214 & Magwart!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what you are describing might be a result of the dogs conformation.

Get a picture of your dog standing, a picture of the dog in a trot --

He may have more angulation in the rear and be restricted in the front, not opening up enough to make room for all that rear , which can't spend it's energy 




 
here the front leg is able to get out of the way of the opposite hind leg 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

is this what you are seeing ? Dog Carts large dog exercise carts for sale by Canine Carriages the dog's left front and right rear are extended to full forward motion. The dog's right front and left rear and extended to full rear thrust .
The right front and the right rear , moving in opposite directions (front moves back - back moves forward) and the rear right leg moves to the centre of the body to make room for that front leg to move without obstruction , "crossing" .

Carmen


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## vickip9 (Mar 28, 2012)

Ok, so I got a few videos to try and show you what I'm talking about. Pay attention to his hind legs and how they seem to cross over during his gait. Oh, and I apologize for the poor quality and shakiness. I'm not good at capturing moving objects.


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## vickip9 (Mar 28, 2012)

You can see it pretty well in this one.. 

Koda - YouTube


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have had his hips checked ?
what are you feeding.
In the spirit of problem solving I would say this dog has no muscle tone -- appears to rest his weight on his left side taking weight away from the right.


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## vickip9 (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, the vet we saw on Thursday did pull back his legs to gauge his pain level on his hips and he didn't flinch at all. 

I'm feeding him Orijen Regional Red but in the process of switching over to the Fromm Four Stars Grain Free kinds. (I'm not sure the Orijen is agreeing with his tummy. Not to mention he doesn't seem to like it much so I have to add toppers to it to make him even eat it). So needless to say, I'm still in the process of finding the right food for him, but I've only been feeding the top quality stuff.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

carmspack said:


> you have had his hips checked ?
> what are you feeding.
> In the spirit of problem solving I would say this dog has no muscle tone -- appears to rest his weight on his left side taking weight away from the right.


 
I see him favouring the right too. An ever so slight tippy toe when he pauses.
He may have a sprain in the right knee. A minor one. But one that has been around for awhile (?) If more serious his head would be lowered and a possible limp seemingly in the front. 

Do you recall him ever giving a quick yelp chasing or playing or jumping up suddenly, slipping on the floor...a quick recovery, like nothing happened? Not necessarily in past week or two either.

Sprains take awhile to heal.
You need to nourish all, tendons, cartlidge, increase collegen, reduce inflammation so calcium deposits don't form...

You can only do this with food, the right suppliments, and keeping up exercise but low impact. Drugs will not do this for him.
Strengthen the right by walking along inclines so, if dog is on your left on incline he would be using right to steady.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

how does your dog handle stairs? 
is your dog able to handle exercise or tire easily?
do you feel there is a general lack of co-ordination and do you feel she has lost muscle since you adopted her ?
Does she chew on her feet?

The reasons I am asking questions in this direction is because there peripheral neuropathies . They can be caused by trauma , toxins , disease or vaccine site , one reason to rotate the location of injection.

just another avenue to investigate.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Or not use vaccinations here on in...

Here's why...you can also view the references at the bottom for more info

Autoimmune Vaccine Damage in Cats and Dogs Indicates Grave Danger to Humans

here is a short blurb from the site

<LI class=article>About one-fourth of the body's protein is collagen, providing structure, protecting and supporting soft tissues, and connecting them to the skeleton. A significant number of dogs develop mobility problems after vaccinations.<LI class=article>Dr. O'Driscoll's greatest concern is that vaccinated dogs developed antibodies to their own DNA. 
and another....

Fibrosarcomas are cancers of connective tissues. These cancers have been associated with vaccine injection sites. An already virulent disease, vaccine-related sarcomas have an even graver prognosis. The only known treatment is amputation of the body part.


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## vickip9 (Mar 28, 2012)

carmspack said:


> how does your dog handle stairs?
> is your dog able to handle exercise or tire easily?
> do you feel there is a general lack of co-ordination and do you feel she has lost muscle since you adopted her ?
> Does she chew on her feet?
> ...


 
He handles stairs fine, but I do notice he "bunny hops" up them. Walks down them normally, one leg after the other, but on the way back up, he skips several stairs and bunny hops with his back legs. 

He seems to handle exercise well. However, I'm not sure if he tires easily or not. He seems very eager to go on walks every day, but by the end of the walk/run, it's hard to tell if he's tired due to physical reasons or because it's so darn hot out!  By the time we are done with our walk/run, his tongue is usually hanging out to the side and that's also when I notice the waddle/crossing gait more. However, he doesn't seem exhausted or anything like that. 

No, he doesn't have a general lack of coordination. Seems to move about just fine. Never trips, doesn't drag his feet, doesn't fall over, etc. 

No, if anything, he's GAINED muscle since I adopted him. He's put on 5 lbs since I started caring for him. And I exercise him almost every single morning. Usually for 45-60 minutes. And then I'll also sometimes take him out in the afternoons to play fetch for a few minutes after work. 

No, he doesn't chew on his feet.


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## dcg9381 (Oct 10, 2003)

Our GSD who had "bad" hips had a much worse gate than your dog... I'd have him checked out, but I wouldnt panic.. .


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

vickip9,

My last shepherd had DM and for what it is worth 1. Your pooch falls below the typical age of showing the beginnings of DM 2. As you said the classic starting to drag the rear paws is not evident whatsoever.

If you choose, a simple DNA test can be done which will tell you if your dog has both A alleles indicating an at risk dog. The test is cheap ($65) when I did it a year or two ago and you can take care of it yourself at home...a simple cheek swab and send it back to the U of M. My dog showed both A alleles and most certainly had DM, which become ever so obvious. I tested 
my dog as soon as the rear paw dragging started.

The University of Missouri- Columbia has really pursued this debilitating disease and going forward breeders should be able to effectively eliminate this from the breed by screening their breeding stock.

Here's the link to get you started if you choose.

Degenerative Myelopathy breakthrough announcement

My kneejerk reaction is, it is not DM (based on my personal experience) but you can verify that for yourself as I'm sure you will.

take care,

SuperG


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## dcg9381 (Oct 10, 2003)

Personally, I don't put too much stock in that test in the case of the GSD. Please read:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/185583-dm-tests-inaccurate-gsds.html

There is a political / funding issue in the background. My suggestion is to look at how the study has confirmed that it is valid for our specific breed type.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

dcg9381 said:


> Personally, I don't put too much stock in that test in the case of the GSD. Please read:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/185583-dm-tests-inaccurate-gsds.html
> 
> There is a political / funding issue in the background. My suggestion is to look at how the study has confirmed that it is valid for our specific breed type.


I can agree with your premise.....however...it is a starting point and at least turns a stone over.

SuperG


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## dcg9381 (Oct 10, 2003)

SuperG said:


> I can agree with your premise.....however...it is a starting point and at least turns a stone over.
> 
> SuperG


No beef with that - however, if the accuracy of the test is substantially in question (for a GSD) - what does it tell you? I'd understand an MRI.

Again, I just encourage people to look at the actual breed specific results in those studies.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

It's my understanding that DM can only be diagnosed by excluding everything else that might be causing a problem and once the dog passes on, a necropsy is the only true way to confirm the diagnosis.

All the DM test can tell you is if you dog has the genetic make-up to carry DM ... it doesn't confirm your dog has the disease ... and like someone else mentioned, there is a big controversy as to the validity of the test currently being used on GSDs.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

MRI cannot confirm DM diagnosis.


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