# Electronic Shock Collars and Compulsion



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, Wayne, here you go.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

W.Oliver said:


> Anne, Can we broaden the compulsion discussion to include E-Stim? Samba and Chris have given me plenty to think about over the past several weeks. Along those lines, I had an opportunity to attend a helper seminar at a regional training event. I was impressed at how many folks employed E-Stim….in my sheltered training, I had not had that kind of exposure, and was struck by how prevalent it is….actually on every dog but two….which came with me. I would like to learn how to employ this tool, and I am considering employing it with my current dog. I know this may read like I am a lemming…but thoughts/comments?


From the other thread. Wayne's question.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What did you see at the seminar that made you want to learn to use the e-collar? Why would you like to employ it with your current dog?


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

There are a number of advantages and disadvantages to the use of an e-collar for stimulation and/or compulsion.

- E-collar timing can be good without body language and lines "telegraphing" what is about to happen. This can make it very impersonal. Somebody you trust can give a well-timed e-collar correction of the right level from far enough away to be "out of the picture". But if you need the dog to think about the handler then the prong might be better.

- E-collar corrections do not usually provide much in the way of direction, e.g. like pronging a dog to down, or to slow down on a track. Especially if you need to be ready to correct for more than one behavior.

E-collar stim or corrections can be very repeatable, depending on equipment. E.g. "when dog X chews the dumbell give him 1 high on the TT Pro 100 until the hold is calm". It doesn't matter who pushes the button as long as the timing is good (not always true with a prong).

E-collars suck when they don't work due to lack of charge, interference, or putting them on too loose.

A prong and an e-collar can be used as a pair to stimulate and suppress. E.g. on the track e-stim means focus and go forward, prong means slow down or stop. In protection the prong means bark, e-collar means be quiet.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> What did you see at the seminar that made you want to learn to use the e-collar? Why would you like to employ it with your current dog?


I was there for a Helper seminar and just an observer for the dog training...but like I mentioned, EVERY dog there, except the two that came with me, had E-collars on.

With respect to the trainer/handlers, we're not talking about a knuckle-head like me, we're talking about a who's who of national level competitors. Again, at the risk of appearing like a lemming, if folks of this caliber are applying the tool so commonly, there must be something to it right????

Specifically what I saw was the immediacy of the corrections, and in most cases, if you were not paying close attention, you wouldn't have even noticed the dog received a correction. In some cases it was apparent the dog was in discomfort, but in most, the dogs response was not more that a twitch or tick, immediately follwed my making an adjustment to be correct.

Samba invested time in me several weeks ago, enlightening me on E-Stim and breaking down the myth walls I had erected. Then I started picking Chris Wilds brain about the topic, and he loaded me up with some information to read...so with more information and an improved perspective, comes curiosity regarding the risks & rewards of the tool. 

As for employing the tool with my current dog, she isn't my first GSD, nor is she the first dog I have invested a great deal of time training, but she is the first dog I have pursued SchH with. In many respects I am a SchH cliche' in that when I got her, I didn't really know what I did't know! She is a West German Show Line X Czech Working Line cross....and she is exactly what many of you would predict....Softer dog with lower drive, and high defense in protection. I am told by those who know more than I that she is SchH1 caliber on tracking & protection, but her obedience is lacking. Her obedience is very good on leash and in short intervals off leash, but I cannot sustain her...after a period of time, she lag, go ckeck-out a bumble bee on a clover...whatever.

After two years of SchH training...religous SchH training, and the application of motivational techniques...I am moving to compulsion. A few weeks ago a trainer I have a great deal of respect for (Dianna), criticized me saying, "I have never seen you really correct your dog"...which cut me to the bone, because she was right. I spank all five of my children when the need it, no matter where we are...at home, in Kroger..no matter. My kids are very well behaved....if its good enough for the kids, its fine for my GSD.

So with my refreshed approach to compulsion and much supervision from Chris and Dianna, the progress the past couple of weeks has been huge! Vis' a' vis the perfect timing of Anne's thread....and although she is a tough cookie, there is much to be learned from her if you're of solid nerve! :laugh:

My thoughts are to work compulsion with leash and collar to wrap-up her BH...which we are close...and my thinking is to start working with E-Stim later this year in a push for SchH1 next year some time. At present, I am of the view that two things could be accomplished. 1.) I could use my current dog as a bit of a guinea pig to perfect my technique(without doing damage), and 2.) In theory, she would benefit to the extent we could bring home the final attributes to accomplish the SchH1, which will be about as far as she could go....and that is fine, because then I would start the process over again with Itzakat vom Wildhaus. I cannot imagine working a dog with solid nerve and real drive...I believe it will be heaven!

Its pretty much true isn't it? I've always been told your first SchH dog is the one you make the most mistakes with?? She is a wonderful dog to learn with because we have to work so hard to get anywhere....but I love her.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Wayne, you should choose to use the e-collar because it is the right tool for that dog and for that point in your training. IMO, you should not use it because it makes training easier for you or because "everyone" is using them. 

I own one and do use it, but it is because they are such a hands off and impersonal form of correction that they are not my first tool of choice.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Wayne, you should choose to use the e-collar because it is the right tool for that dog and for that point in your training. IMO, you should not use it because it makes training easier for you or because "everyone" is using them.


I cannot argue that logic at all...and I am not rushing to it because all the cool kids are doing it either. Which is why I worry about appearing like a lemming running off the E-Stim cliff. Did I make it sound like my motivation was to make it easier for me? I hope not, because my efforts are simply about exploring all the options to sort-out what my best course may be.

One of my favorite sayings is that with my high line, we have to work twice as hard to get half as much as those working line teams! I also like to make sure everyone knows my dog is prettier than all the other dogs in my club!:wild: (that little statement always gets a response)

Lisa, I think you hit the nail on the head...is there a temperament that is more appropriate for E-Stim? Are there problems sets that are more appropriate for E-Stim? At what point in a training regiment is it reasonable or appropriate to introduce E-Stim?

By the way, tell Sean that if I had a dollar for everytime Nate Harves mentioned him as an example of how to do this or that, I could have bought an airline ticket rather than drive to Ohio!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

lhczth said:


> Wayne, you should choose to use the e-collar because it is the right tool for that dog and for that point in your training.


I couldn't agree more. And being quite familiar with this specific situation, I cannot say I think the e-collar or any sort of serious "compulsion" phase is the answer here. A small part of the solution perhaps, but certainly not the bulk of it. 

As for everyone's doing it, no not really. Out of the what 17? dogs in our club there is 1 that utilizes the e-collar, and that only fairly recently and because it fit what Lisa described above.. it was the correct tool for that dog at that point in training. Visiting other clubs, I wouldn't say e-collar use is in the majority overall. Popular, yes, but not something "everyone" is doing. It has pros and cons the same way as every other method and tool, which need to be weighed in terms of what is best for any particular dog.

As far as Dayna being SchH1 ready in tracking and protection but not obedience... well, that is 99% due to factors other than the dog. And she has shown that she is perfectly capable of keeping focus and attention and putting on one heck of an obedience performance when handled correctly. Sorry, Wayne, I love ya, but that's the truth.

Now e-collars for handlers I could definitely go along with sometimes....


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Chris Wild said:


> Now e-collars for handlers I could definitely go along with sometimes....


 
:rofl: At least we can dream.................. 

Wayne, I will let him know. I wish we could have come down, but with the regionals, the timing was horrible for us.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

W.Oliver said:


> Lisa, I think you hit the nail on the head...is there a temperament that is more appropriate for E-Stim? Are there problems sets that are more appropriate for E-Stim? At what point in a training regiment is it reasonable or appropriate to introduce E-Stim?


There again it depends on the dog and the handler and your goals and, IMO, why you want to use the e-collar. I have used it on 4 different dogs for 4 different reasons. All four had different temperaments and differing needs. I have helped with the introduction on 4 other dogs each for varying reasons and with different types of temperaments.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> As far as Dayna being SchH1 ready in tracking and protection but not obedience... well, that is 99% due to factors other than the dog. And she has shown that she is perfectly capable of keeping focus and attention and putting on one heck of an obedience performance when handled correctly.


I have traveled the world, and without a doubt, that is the sweetest way anyone has ever told me I suck.:blush:



Chris Wild said:


> .....Wayne, I love ya....


Well, at least I have that going for me........does that mean you won't name my dog "Itzakat"?

For the sake of discussion, lets step away from Dayna and I as a case study and continue with an examination of E-Stim as a tool....a great opportunity to learn from the discussion still exists here. 

The questions remain....is there a temperament that is more appropriate for E-Stim? ie hard dog vs soft...what are the characteristics that would motivate an accomplished trainer to employ the tool...or is it simply philosophical? 

Are there problems sets that are more appropriate for E-Stim?

At what point in a training regiment is it reasonable or appropriate to introduce E-Stim? Do the national level competitors start a young dog with an E-Stim collar or is it something that is introduced much later in the training?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Wayne, I will let him know. I wish we could have come down, but with the regionals, the timing was horrible for us.


No worries, I can tell you first hand that folks generally made the assumption you guys were breaking your backsides to get ready.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> There again it depends on the dog and the handler and your goals and, IMO, why you want to use the e-collar. I have used it on 4 different dogs for 4 different reasons. All four had different temperaments and differing needs. I have helped with the introduction on 4 other dogs each for varying reasons and with different types of temperaments.


By opening my mouth, or typing with my fingers (two fingers), I have demonstrated on more than one ocassion that my knowledge level is in an elemental state with respect to SchH.

You're just going to have to give me more to go on than that little sister!

The one dog at my club that is in process with E-Stim is the only situation I am familiar with...and on the dog I reference, it is clear to me why E-Stim is being engaged, I can also see the benefits from the tool in the dogs performance, but one does not make a statistical sample. 

Are there folks that start a young dog off with E-Stim, almost as a prophylactic? Or is it generally a tool engage later in the training cycle as a corrective measure? 

Anne, where the heck are you? Are you still sore about the wolf at the camp fire crack? Do you use E-Stim?


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

W.Oliver said:


> Are there folks that start a young dog off with E-Stim, almost as a prophylactic? Or is it generally a tool engage later in the training cycle as a corrective measure?


I don't know what young is, but I start with the collar about 10 months or so. And at that point I'm using the collar not as correction but as queue for the dog to become more active.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Wayne, your questions are still based on the individual. It depends on the dog and the handler. I use an e-collar for specific things for that individual dog. I have introduced them to a young dog (around a year) and older dogs (around 6). I, at least, can not generalize and say they should be used on a specific type of dog for a specific reason at a certain age.  This is how I use the collar. I can't answer for the rest.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I can see that the e-collar like any training method depends on the dog and the situation so it is hard to say, "Use e-collar for _________." Can those that use e-collar explain what made you decide to use it for each dog and what the result was? Examples are good in place of a blanket statement.

Also, do those that use it generally see it as a different tool than a prong altogether? An escalation? A replacement?

In light of the study that was done indicating that the e-collar created less stress for the dog, would you consider using the e-collar in place of what you normally use a prong for. Why or why not?


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

I had a dog who was plenty hard with the helper and other people and dogs but went through a period when he was sensitive with me. This was the first dog on which I used the e-collar extensively. Controlled, well-timed corrections that were not personal just worked better for him. I only used the e-collar for things that he knew and had previously received a leash correction for. I started with the recall, heeling, and the down. At one time or another I also used it for the sit, stand, tracking to an article, out, transports, etc.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Wayne, i can tell were you are! You are just luckier to have knowledgeable people around you and the possibility to go to other places to learn for others.

When I first started in dog training my "boss" ( so to speak) was and man whose methods were based not in compulsion, but in brutality. I won't speak further of him only because the old man is dead. I really didn't used those methods, I used Koehler, yes, and chokes, yes, but I did not repeated what I saw. Yet I learnt a lot because of him (not from him). Then I started going to SchH seminars and I met the positive training. I swore for it just as everyone else at the moment. Everybody was with a ball under the armpit, you were the lucky one if you had a friend that brought you a clicker from USA because they were not sold here and that was the only and sacred way to do things. But I kept learning, working, doing courses, seminars, travelling to train to other countries and then... I started to mature. I'm still there. Now I give compulsion a place on training and I know it has nothing to do with the things I saw when I started. Now I know the difference between pressure and punishment and if needed use both. But I'm still giving my baby steps and there are methods I bet do wonders in the hands of the Big Names of world training yet I would not dare to use just because I saw it on YouTube or in a 3 days seminar. I'll borrow Melanie's phrase: "Positive first", that's how I feel I train now.

I won't speak about e-collars because I think the core line has been said, it is has to be used considering individual dogs and individual problems. But I think that before considering using one, or a prong or your hands or even to yell there have to be a lot of thinking on why you use compulsion, when, and even if you feel comfortable with it.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Fast said:


> I don't know what young is, but I start with the collar about 10 months or so. And at that point I'm using the collar not as correction but as queue for the dog to become more active.


10 months is what I had imagined as young....I would have been surprised by anthing younger than that. The way you describe it, is it reasonable to say the E-Stim is your marker? A very low setting that simply denotes the queue for the dog? If so, that would be comparable to what I understood Samba to be doing with her approach, from the videos I saw, she was employing the technique with older dogs.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> I use an e-collar for specific things for that individual dog.


OK, here is another little snap of clarity...I had viewed the tool as a blanket approach, if you will, but as you characterize the use, it would be to shape a specific behavior, and when you've accomplished your goal for that dog, the E-Collar is back on the shelf??


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Ruthie said:


> I can see that the e-collar like any training method depends on the dog and the situation so it is hard to say, "Use e-collar for _________."


That is it exactly...and I'm thinking you're in the same boat with me (and I am digging that baby). I am having a hard time conceptualizing the scenario where an E-Collar would be a better solution.

Its established for me that we can't generalize...although I was looking for a hook to hang my hat on....like, never use E-Stim on a soft dog, kind of thing.

So what is an example of where E-Stim was an appropriate tool for a dog developing in SchH? If I am correct in understanding Fast's post, I can see where it is a marker, and a bit more than a clicker.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Uniballer said:


> I only used the e-collar for things that he knew and had previously received a leash correction for........tracking to an article.......


This is more of what I had anticipated...the blanket approach in that you're using it across the training. The key point I glean from your comment it that the E-Stim is not used durning the learning phase, but rather to shape the behavior after the dog has learned what is expected?

I am surprised about the tracking...that had not occured to me. I would imagine the setting is very low, and like Fast, you would use it simply as a marker for the dog to down on the article?


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

W.Oliver said:


> So what is an example of where E-Stim was an appropriate tool for a dog developing in SchH?


I have used an e-collar for working on the long distance down (e.g. at the end of the send-out). The dog knew the down command very well, including the down in motion, but now it was time to add drive. I had already taught the dog how to turn off the collar with various commands, including the down. I often played two-ball with this dog, and would sometimes throw in a recall, or down during play. I used the e-collar on the lowest level that would get a response to nudge the dog into giving the correct response, at a distance. I had to give a stronger correction a few times, but not often. In the beginning, I asked for the down when the dog already had the ball. Then I taught him that I could ask for the down before I threw the ball. I finished this development by teaching him that I could throw the ball and then ask for the down. Usually, I would then release him to get the ball, but sometimes I would pick him up and provide the other ball as a reward. You can see how this generalizes and develops the behavior needed for the down in the send-out.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Catu said:


> Wayne, i can tell were you are! You are just luckier to have knowledgeable people around you and the possibility to go to other places to learn for others.
> 
> .......I would not dare to use just because I saw it on YouTube or in a 3 days seminar. I'll borrow Melanie's phrase: "Positive first", that's how I feel I train now.
> 
> I won't speak about e-collars because I think the core line has been said, it is has to be used considering individual dogs and individual problems. But I think that before considering using one, or a prong or your hands or even to yell there have to be a lot of thinking on why you use compulsion, when, and even if you feel comfortable with it.


¡Permita que comience diciendo, yo no habría podido escribir una respuesta tal de la calidad que usted hizo en español! Gracias. Tengo mucho de respecto por los que sepan hablar una segunda lengua.

I cannot imagine having a passion for SchH and living in a place, no matter how wonderful, where resources were so difficult to come by...my hat is off to you and your tenacity. I do appreciate the resources available to me, but I must continually endeavor not to drive them crazy with my twisted sense of humor and my incessant questions! Lisa is clearly smarter than Chris as I tried to get into Lisa's club and she ran me off with a stick...now Chris is stuck with me! I can only imagine Lisa dropping to her knees and thanking God!:rofl: Someday, I am going to travel to Sagus California and turn-up on Anne's doorstep for some training! 

Please know that just because I saw the tool used at a training seminar or watched a video, I am not rushing out to buy an E-Collar.....thats why I wanted to pick everyone's brain on the topic.

Your comment about E-Collars still leaves me grasping to get my mind around when is it a reasonable application....maybe this understanding comes with more time training and greater exposure to those that employ the tool correctly??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wayne, you should talk more with Roni, she uses it, has had a wide range of results & still uses it. And she is certified on training others with it. 
She said she saw you this past weekend, too bad you didn't pick her brain then! 
Last night she used it during tracking and once during obedience, Tobi didn't need more than two corrections the whole time. But those two were needed and justified.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

W.Oliver said:


> This is more of what I had anticipated...the blanket approach in that you're using it across the training. The key point I glean from your comment it that the E-Stim is not used durning the learning phase, but rather to shape the behavior after the dog has learned what is expected?


I used the e-collar for many things, but not all the time. Sometimes it was the leash and collar. Or my hand. Even a toe pinch for the retrieve. Whatever felt the most appropriate at the time, in the context of what I needed from the dog and how he was reacting. It is hard to beat a leash correction when you are close and it will not cause too many residual issues.

Sometimes the e-collar is very effective when the dog is 75% sure on the command (i.e. learning/proofing is not yet complete). But in that case you must ensure that only the appropriate response will turn off the collar, and other responses (e.g. avoidance) must be prevented.

FYI - I got one heck of an introduction to bad e-collar use with my first club training director. It took a few years after that before I came to the understanding that judicious use of the e-collar was OK. I learned a lot about appropriate e-collar training before I bought and used one.



W.Oliver said:


> I am surprised about the tracking...that had not occured to me. I would imagine the setting is very low, and like Fast, you would use it simply as a marker for the dog to down on the article?


Not the way I use it. I use the e-collar on a low stim while tracking to compel focus to the track. The article is "safe", so the collar goes off when the dog smells the article. So the e-collar tells the dog when he is goofing off (e.g. bored) to get back to work.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

The E-collar can actually be less personal for some dogs than a collar correction. I think this is particularly true for handler soft dogs. Ecollars are very non emotional and when used with good timing are very clear signals to the dog. 

I also think it depends on how you train with the E-collar. From what I have seen (and my experience with E collar trainers is admittedly limited) there seem to be 2 basic ways which seem to correspond to your 2 buttons-nick and continuous. As a cue to stop action, or a cue to move into action. 

For example on stationary exercises- like sit, down, etc. Most people will issue a nick- sort of the electrical version of the pop on the collar.

There is also the continuous button. This is most often associated in my mind with escape training. You continue to apply the Stim until the dog is moving into or doing the desired behavior. I have most often seen this done with actions that require the dog to move. You see people do it with the Voraus and in tracking. It can be brutal but it certainly doesn't have to be. 

I used this when I was redoing my dog's hold and working on the take it. Argos would kick up in drive with a collar correction, and that was counterproductive to calming his hold. I would set his e-collar to 8. Yes 8 out of 127 levels on my Dogtra. I would present the dowel and hold the continuous button until he would move forward to take it and then release the button. In this instance the release of the stim marked the behavior. It only took about 2 sessions and then he would take it on his own and we didn't need to use it anymore. In this kind of training the low level stim was indicating to him that he needed to do something. He had some foundation from me putting the dowel in his mouth...but he needed to learn that the action was no longer coming from me but rather he needed to initiate the behavior. He knew he was correct not only when the stim released, but also he received his release word and a treat.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> Wayne, you should talk more with Roni, she uses it, has had a wide range of results & still uses it. And she is certified on training others with it.
> She said she saw you this past weekend, too bad you didn't pick her brain then!
> Last night she used it during tracking and once during obedience, Tobi didn't need more than two corrections the whole time. But those two were needed and justified.


Like I said earlier, every dog (about 40) except the two that came with me had E-Collars...including Roni & Tobi.

I felt like a hillbilly in the big city for the first time at that training event....I know you're going to struggle with this notion, but I stayed kinda quiet. I was simply in awe of the people and the dogs....and I am not easily impressed. Thanks for the info, I did not know someone could be "certified" on the E-Collar...is that sponsored by one of the manufacturers or something?

The next time I see her, I will pick her brain...she is the sweetest lady. You're not so bad yourself...Thanks.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Uniballer said:


> Not the way I use it. I use the e-collar on a low stim while tracking to compel focus to the track. The article is "safe", so the collar goes off when the dog smells the article. So the e-collar tells the dog when he is goofing off (e.g. bored) to get back to work.


That is 180 degrees away from what I had imagined...much to learn here.



Uniballer said:


> I learned a lot about appropriate e-collar training before I bought and used one.


Refer to my comment above...Amen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wondered about the word "certified" as well, not sure there is actual certification. Maybe I shouldn't have used that verbage...can't imagine you as "quiet"!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wonder when Lou will appear?


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

Maybe you shouldn't say his name if you don't want him to show up?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I wonder when Lou will appear?


Lou my mother? Did you meet her at the WUSV, I can't remember?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Didn't use the last name on purpose!! Usually the title of the thread alone will do it.


> Someday, I am going to travel to Sagus California and turn-up on Anne's doorstep for some training!


I'd love to do that as well!


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

I have also considered using an E collar on Eris to work on her out of motions and to get a little bit better focus. I was with Wayne over the weekend and we had a few discussions about the number of handlers that use them. I began to wonder if I would have to use one to get that little bit "extra" I know my dog can give me. I would like to think that I am a good enough trainer to get that out of her using just me and the toy. I am not sure now! I think she is a fantastic dog (Chris might actually be sick of hearing how much I LOVE my dogs!) but I think our training is not quite what the dogs at the higher levels have. 

As far as being a "certified" trainer, it is probably a nice course that a person completed and got a pretty certificate to go along with it. Does that person likely know more than me about E-Stim..... most likely! Is it required...no not really. Though, I would probably rather learn from someone who has learned how to teach others, rather than taught themselves and thinks they know what they are doing!


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

Have to say thanks for starting this thread, I was going to start one myself lol.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> The E-collar can actually be less personal for some dogs than a collar correction. I think this is particularly true for handler soft dogs. Ecollars are very non emotional and when used with good timing are very clear signals to the dog.


This is one of the main reasons that I want to learn more. I am a pretty emotional person with absolutely no "poker face", and Bison is a mama's boy. The other issue is that he goes into overdrive so easily that collar corrections can put him there. 

I would really like to hear more examples as well as the overall philisophy as previously questioned.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Do you use E-Stim?


My doctors used e-stim on my knee after surgery. They attached a machine to my leg that stimulated the muscles with electricity. I have not used it on my dogs but if any of them are injured, I might consider it.
I love these terms people use to soften the image. The words really seem to matter though, that's for sure.

I have used an e-collar to train a couple of client dogs who would shut down when I tried physical corrections. They were so disturbed by the correction coming from me, I decided to try the e-collar. It worked quite well on those dogs and made the training far less stressful for them. In that case, I felt it was the more humane method.

Other than that, I don't use the e-collar on my dogs. It is not something I enjoy using for reasons that are my own.
I try to talk about what I know or what I feel I have enough experience to talk about. The e-collar is not one of those things, so, I will leave it to the people who use it .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

For my dog, I don't ever see the need to use it. He is handler sensitive and when I teach him something he usually picks it up. Though at barely 1.5 yrs he may change, but so far he is in the grid of not needing corrections to learn or be controlled. I don't know if I'll ever experience the use of the e-collar with this dog... it's all good for the time being!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

W.Oliver said:


> Lisa is clearly smarter than Chris as I tried to get into Lisa's club and she ran me off with a stick...


Doesn't say much for your nerves, Wayne. I only used the padded stick and not even the old reed stick. 



> Your comment about E-Collars still leaves me grasping to get my mind around when is it a reasonable application....maybe this understanding comes with more time training and greater exposure to those that employ the tool correctly??


IMO, greater exposure to good training, period.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Ok, so far, I am getting the impression that the word compulsion is the problem. It puts "pictures" in people's heads. So, maybe we should replace the word with corrections so people can think clearly.





Vandal said:


> My doctors used e-stim on my knee after surgery.
> I love these terms people use to soften the image. The words really seem to matter though, that's for sure. I have used an e-collar to train a couple of client dogs.......


Anne, Lets just stick with Compulsion and Shock Collars! No messin' around.:wild: You failed to comment on onyx'girl and I road tripin to Sagus and showin' up on your doorstep for training....I thought I would at least get some vailed threat about settin dogs on my ass if I did????

Samba, I am surprised you have not jumped in on this thread....you must be away actually training dogs instead of just talking about it.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

W.Oliver said:


> ¡Permita que comience diciendo, yo no habría podido escribir una respuesta tal de la calidad que usted hizo en español! Gracias. Tengo mucho de respecto por los que sepan hablar una segunda lengua.
> 
> I cannot imagine having a passion for SchH and living in a place, no matter how wonderful, where resources were so difficult to come by...my hat is off to you and your tenacity.


Thanks, i keep improving every day and I still find mistakes every time I re-read a post.

Thanks to other crazy people we are improving, yet we still have to import almost everything you need. My mom doesn't believe I sew, but dogs have made that miracle because you can't find a simple tug, you have to make it yourself. I just made a bite pillow using the jute of an old sleeve cover, and sleeves, suits, whatever... you have to import. Same with most dogs, Diabla I imported her from Argentina and I consider myself very, very lucky to have been approved (by one of the very few breeders around here that screen pup buyers) for a pup that will be born of two imports. Working lines are rare and because of the same reason are coming into fashion and it is not that easy to find a working line pup of parents that really work and are more than a nice pedigree 3 generations back away.



> Please know that just because I saw the tool used at a training seminar or watched a video, I am not rushing out to buy an E-Collar.....thats why I wanted to pick everyone's brain on the topic.
> 
> Your comment about E-Collars still leaves me grasping to get my mind around when is it a reasonable application....maybe this understanding comes with more time training and greater exposure to those that employ the tool correctly??


I know! I never assumed you would rush into using one, on the contrary, I just wanted to say that maybe you are in the same situation than me right now, after a period a absorbing every bit of knowledge now maturing what has been learned to make our own opinion. But I look at your question maybe in a deeper level, not only about if the e-collar is a tool you want to use or not, but the level of compulsion you may need and feel comfortable using, in general, in a given problem and on a certain dog.

This is why I think dog training is not a sport but an art, because it is far more than the learning of techniques, but the need to be creative and, every day, be faced with moral questions.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dog training involves a lifetime of learning.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Catu said:


> Thanks, i keep improving every day and I still find mistakes every time I re-read a post.


Cualquier equivocación que usted incurra en es no peor que cualesquiera de mis errores. Soy contable, muy bueno con números, pero no puedo deletrear para ahorrar mi vida. ¿Hay manera que podría enviar los tirones o el otro equipo de entrenamiento del perro a usted en Chile? Me placería ayudar.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

W.Oliver said:


> 10 months is what I had imagined as young....I would have been surprised by anthing younger than that. The way you describe it, is it reasonable to say the E-Stim is your marker?


It's sort of a negative marker with a slight aversive. I would call it information. 





> A very low setting that simply denotes the queue for the dog? If so, that would be comparable to what I understood Samba to be doing with her approach, from the videos I saw, she was employing the technique with older dogs.


Cool. Where's the video?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Catu, ¿Puede usted decir mi español es peor que su inglés? :help:


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Fast said:


> Cool. Where's the video?


Funny you ask, as I have been looking for it....she sent it to me via PM on another forum back in April, and I cannot find it.

My evolution in thinking about E-Collars is really her fault.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Doesn't say much for your nerves, Wayne. I only used the padded stick and not even the old reed stick.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, greater exposure to good training, period.


Give the guy some credit, he came back for more after all, if not nerves he have resilience


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Dog training involves a lifetime of learning.


Isn't that one of the best parts of it?? I work with folks who whine about not knowing what they will do after retirement....people like us don't worry about that.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Wayne, you are cheating because you are using online translators!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Catu said:


> Wayne, you are cheating because you are using online translators!


And your point is????:rofl: Regardless, my spanish still sucks. My profession takes me to latin America, mostly Mexico, about six times a year. I have attended executive language classes over and over, and at best I can get around a city, eat, drink, and find a place to sleep. So back to my original comment...I hold a great deal of respect for anyone who can speak a second language.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

W.Oliver said:


> Isn't that one of the best parts of it?? I work with folks who whine about not knowing what they will do after retirement....people like us don't worry about that.


I agree, but I can tell you, I have met a lot of people who feel they have nothing more to learn. I always find that very sad. Every dog you work teaches you something.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

lhczth said:


> I agree, but I can tell you, I have met a lot of people who feel they have nothing more to learn. I always find that very sad. Every dog you work teaches you something.


Every dog? How about every day!  My most recent lesson being that no matter how insistent your dog is that he does not have to go poop (yes, he goes on command) before agility class, DON'T BELIEVE HIM!!!! The end result is not pleasant and let's just say that their A-frame will never be the same.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> You failed to comment on onyx'girl and I road tripin to Sagus


I am not familiar with Sagus but you two have a great time, wherever that is.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> Every dog? How about every day!  My most recent lesson being that no matter how insistent your dog is that he does not have to go poop (yes, he goes on command) before agility class, DON'T BELIEVE HIM!!!! The end result is not pleasant and let's just say that their A-frame will never be the same.


Oh no he didn't!!!! Bison ...


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I am not familiar with Sagus but you two have a great time, wherever that is.


OK Smart A** e, I beleive I have demonstrated on a sufficient number of ocassions that I cannot spell. Sagus, Saugus..tomato, patato whatever! I just don't want to hear any bitchin when we turn-up on your doorstep!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm sure she'll direct us to the kennels for some pooper scoopering before we train!


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

W.Oliver said:


> OK, here is another little snap of clarity...I had viewed the tool as a blanket approach, if you will, but as you characterize the use, it would be to shape a specific behavior, and when you've accomplished your goal for that dog, the E-Collar is back on the shelf??


 I know a lot of people who use e-collars. Not one of them has ever put it "back on the shelf". It's way too easy to use, and to get results in a short period of time. I feel the same way Anne (Vandal) does. I've never used one and I never plan to. I have achieved excellent results using other methods. May have taken me longer, but we got there and the dogs had fun doing it.
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have nothing against training with electricity but do not and will not use it with my current dog. It has nothing to do with how I feel about it or what I am comfortable with. I've seen it abused and I've seen it use fabulously. I have very little experience with it but that is not what puts me off. I do not think that e-collar corrections are any more or less painful/aversive than a prong correction. For me it boils down to the individual dog. How does he think and learn? What is the balance of his drives? What is his relationship to the handler? My current dog can take a lot of pressure and relishes a fight. Even our obedience training has turned into sort of a play-fight conflict between he and I, now that he has matured. He's the type of dog that tends to ignore "nagging" corrections and load up with some more purposeful corrections, whereas sometimes using prong corrections during obedience or using a prong on a live ring in protection can shut a dog down. For us these have a purpose and have been very useful. Because of our relationship with each other, when I correct him I want him to know that it's coming from me at the other end of the leash. If for some reason I didn't have enough control to work the dog at a distance, I would simply back up a few steps and re-work that exercise so I had more control without needing electricity on the dog. There are a lot of other factors I don't need to get into but for my working relationship with this particular dog, I do not see the value of using an e-collar. It would not do us any harm - I think many times there are 2 or 3 ways to train a dog the same thing - but me being less experienced with it, at this point I don't see any reason to bring it in now especially considering how the dog works.

One thing that bothers me about e-collars in general is how people escalate to them. Didn't Art have a thread about this before? Why do so many people say they'd use an e-collar or prong "as a last resort?" When I start training a behavior I start with the tools and methods in mind, I've already thought through the dog's temperament and drives and how I intend to train the behavior start to finish. If I do use an e-collar, I fully intend to use it and see purpose and value in that type of training for that dog and that behavior.

I do believe that in order to really succeed in SchH a dog needs to learn how to work under pressure and how to bring power and fight out during their training but I don't believe it HAS to be one specific tool. 

I have a pet dog that I use an e-collar on for one or two things, this is my companion/pet dog with no training aspirations.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I guess anything is for certain dogs at certain time for certain things. I think e-stim can have a wide variety of applications for many dogs in many circumstances though. I'm not an expert on the training so I will not be able to offer a lot of insight though. The low stim levels can make it a workable tool for a lot of situations, I would think.

Why would a person not want to utilize it? I am wondering why an instance where a dog is working well with good handling would mean that e stim would not still possibly be a nice tool.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess for me, it's just not worth it. Bringing it out now would probably do more harm than good, just another opportunity for me to screw up. I've heard many people like to use it for control issues at a distance, I don't have this issue thankfully. Others have told me sometimes they want their dog to know they are correcting them and other times not so the e-collar allows them to correct and not get personal. I personally won't give a correction that I would want my dog to not perceive as coming from me (if that makes sense) and I don't get carried away with correcting my dog out of my own frustrations and emotions. Most often I just see it being used as a crutch. People start using it and never try anything else, or use it the same way with every dog. To me there is just no point at this stage in the game with this particular dog, plus I don't have the $300+ to get outfitted. Just give me a collar and a leash, I can see them and I know they work every time. I don't have the patience for fitting collars, making sure the prongs are touching right, keeping track of the remote, etc. I got a cheapy one and it works on my pet dog but with it dialed up and on the "boost", Nikon showed no signs of even feeling the stim, let alone it being a useful positive punisher or negative reinforcer. My pet dog works on the lowest level, which I cannot even feel myself.

If I'm having a control issue, I'd rather go back and address that than switch tools. If I have poor timing with corrections or markers, then I will work on that. So far the training issues I've had would only be band-aided by bringing out the e-collar; the real issue of where I'm making training/handling mistakes would not be completely addressed by switching tools.

I will say I don't enjoy watching people train with them because I never know when the dog is being corrected. That's nothing against the tool itself or the method. I wish there was some signal when the button was being pushed so I could get a better feel for what was really going on.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Sure, if a person did not feel comfortable with it or did not wish to buy a high quality collar, then I would say it is not for them at that juncture.

That doesn't really speak to the possible values of the tool. It is not necessarily an escalation of correction type of device or a patch for poor training. When a person has problems in their training, they will reach for things, sure. That says more about the trainer than the modality. I am sure most of have seen this.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> ...Nikon showed no signs of even feeling the stim, let alone it being a useful positive punisher or negative reinforcer.


I thought you didn't feel the need to use the collar?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I will say I don't enjoy watching people train with them because I never know when the dog is being corrected. That's nothing against the tool itself or the method. I wish there was some signal when the button was being pushed so I could get a better feel for what was really going on.


At our club often we will get another person (usually the TD or someone experienced) to handle the remote and he or she will say out loud "nick, nick, nick, nick" when they press the button - or as Anne would say "shock the dog"  - to let the handler know what is going on.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> I thought you didn't feel the need to use the collar?


I don't, but I originally put it on all my dogs to find their working level and make sure it could be fitted right. That was quite a while ago, when I was seriously considering using one for him and my pet dog. I decided not to. I've used it on my pet dog since I got it. Right now I have no use for it with my Schutzhund dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> That doesn't really speak to the possible values of the tool. It is not necessarily an escalation of correction type of device or a patch for poor training. When a person has problems in their training, they will reach for things, sure. That says more about the trainer than the modality. I am sure most of have seen this.


I guess I just don't understand what I would need it for? Most of the people I train with do use them, and if there was a reason for me trying it someone would have pointed it out by now. A few weeks ago we had an issue where someone said, "this might be where you could use an e-collar", but the issue was resolved within the next few training sessions, shorter than what it would have taken for me to condition the dog to the new tool. 

I use positive punishment/corrections, negative reinforcement/escape training, and markers in all three phases of my training and generally use all three in any given training session, but it is not limited to one tool. 

I also think there is a learning curve with each tool. I am not at all averse to e-collars in general and think they are a valuable tool (and I do have one and use one), but to me it doesn't seem odd that I'd stick with the tool I'm most familiar and effective with. Using an e-collar now would just be using the same type of training with a different tool but something I'm far less familiar with, in the context of Schutzhund.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, it is the same type of training. Not really a new concept. I like that I can utilize it at a distance also. The dogs seem to respond to it so well that their speed and confidence is better. It is harder to have as good timing and it is much more awkward with a leash and collar. The ability to work off leash is nice to me also.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think it takes away a few things that can make the klutz-ier ones of us look a real mess when training. But I've also seen people who are just plain kluzty have no better timing or consistency with a remote than with a leash and collar. This is definitely a criticism of the trainer and not the tool/method but a few too many times I've seen people go to the e-collar because they were having "communication" issues with other tools but their timing and consistency never really improved. I do a ton of freeshaping and backchaining because most of my training experience is not with Schutzhund but other venues so to me, being able to correctly time and administer corrections and rewards is so critical, I think it deserves a lot of time and focus regardless of the tool. A few times in other contexts someone has asked me if an e-collar would be a better tool for this or that and often the honest answer is that it doesn't really matter, the effectiveness of the communication overall is what is the problem, not the tool. Same thing could be said for anything though, prong, clicker...



At training this morning I thought about what we were doing and where an e-collar could or wouldn't work. What I realized is that a lot of the corrections I give my dog at the moment are directional, which I can't really achieve with the e-collar.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Most often I just see it being used as a crutch.


I see this with both the e-collar and the pinch. The week before a trial they are still correcting the dog here and correcting the dog there. If I am having to correct my dog over and over than my dog is not ready to trial. 

My dogs know the corrections; whether with a pinch, a flat collar or an e-collar; are coming from me. 

We have a dog in our club that I am not sure could have been titled with out the e-collar. Through some "tough man" training at a young age he was already headed down that road. The e-collar made a lot of sense to him and removed the conflict that was caused by the previous training. 

Lies, the fact that you do not get emotional when training says that you would be fine using an e-collar if you felt the need. I have a friend who told me that he can not use one because he knows his own temperament. He can run the transmitter for other people's dogs, but not his own.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lhczth said:


> Lies, the fact that you do not get emotional when training says that you would be fine using an e-collar if you felt the need. I have a friend who told me that he can not use one because he knows his own temperament. He can run the transmitter for other people's dogs, but not his own.


Interesting. The arguments I've heard were that the e-collar helps remove the emotion (anger, frustration) because of it's consistency and limits. Correct a dog five times on a prong and no matter how hard you try even if you are totally neutral, they won't be exactly the same. I'm sure we've all seen people's corrections start to escalate as they get frustrated, or people just nagging a dog and not giving an appropriate correction when they are not focused or thinking they are doing fine. In your friend's case, would he not be able to use one because he'd be dialing up the remote too high?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lisa, you brought up an excellent point and a subject that many handler and trainers have a hard time grasping....."conflict". Conflict between handler and dog is often at the root of the problem as training becomes more frequent and complicated. Many people don't know when they are at conflict with their dog and even more don't know how they created it. I agree that the e collar can be a useful tool in getting back on track with a doghandler team that is in conflict.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> In your friend's case, would he not be able to use one because he'd be dialing up the remote too high?


Yes, he knows that he would lose his temper and abuse it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

W.Oliver said:


> The questions remain....is there a temperament that is more appropriate for E-Stim? ie hard dog vs soft...what are the characteristics that would motivate an accomplished trainer to employ the tool...or is it simply philosophical?


Some people say that Ecollar should not be used on soft or fearful or (fill in the blank) type of dogs. I've successfully used Ecollars on all types from hard to soft, from fearless to fearful, from outgoing to shy. 




W.Oliver said:


> Are there problems sets that are more appropriate for E-Stim?


Some people use them for everything. But for me there are some things that are better done with other tools. 




W.Oliver said:


> At what point in a training regiment is it reasonable or appropriate to introduce E-Stim? Do the national level competitors start a young dog with an E-Stim collar or is it something that is introduced much later in the training?


Various people do it various ways. Some introduce it right away, as soon as the dog is old enough (general recommendation is _not younger than six months). _And some wait until a problem develops. Some use it on all dogs, some only use it when all other methods to fix an issue have failed. 




onyx'girl said:


> Wayne, you should talk more with Roni, she uses it, has had a wide range of results & still uses it. And she is certified on training others with it.


Can you tell us who issued this _certification? _




W.Oliver said:


> I did not know someone could be "certified" on the E-Collar...is that sponsored by one of the manufacturers or something?


I don't know of any manufacturer who issues a _certification _for the Ecollar. There is a trainer who runs a three week school where anyone (regardless of experience) comes out of it with the title _"Certified Remote Specialist"_ even if they've never trained a dog in their life. 

If you'd like to be a _"Certified Master Trainer"_ I can issue those. You don't need to attend any pesky school, just mail me $25 and I'll send you the certificate. I make them up right here on the computer! 

Anyone who likes to fish can be a _"Certified Master Baiter."_ but those are $35. 




onyx'girl said:


> I wonder when Lou will appear?


I wondered why my ears were burning on Thursday!



Liesje said:


> Because of our relationship with each other, when I correct him I want him to know that it's coming from me at the other end of the leash.


Many people want this but I've never been able to figure out why. But that's a separate conversation. Used as most people do, train the behavior first and then introduce/use the Ecollar only to correct disobedience, this is usually the result. 

But it's easy to use the Ecollar so that the dog does not associate it with the handler, if that is what one wants. I prefer that the dog think that the stim came from his behavior, rather than from the handler. Just a difference in training ethos, I think. 





Liesje said:


> I think many times there are 2 or 3 ways to train a dog the same thing


I agree. We trained all these behaviors for many years before Ecollars came along. 





Liesje said:


> One thing that bothers me about e-collars in general is how people escalate to them. Didn't Art have a thread about this before? Why do so many people say they'd use an e-collar or prong "as a last resort?"


I think it's because they have some aversion to the tool. Sometimes that based on having seen it misused or abused. Sometimes it's because just about everyone in a modern country has some unpleasant, personal experience of electricity, and they think that an Ecollar is the same thing. Sometimes it's because they've bought into the lies, myths and misconceptions that abound about them. While they may not believe them, they do create fear in those who don't know the truth. 




Liesje said:


> I don't have the $300+ to get outfitted.


You can get _"outfitted"_ for far less. The least expensive Ecollar that I recommend retails for $200 and it's easy to find people who give discounts. But that still ain't cheap. You can buy a lot of leashes, collars and sleeves for $200. 




Liesje said:


> I got a cheapy one and it works on my pet dog but with it dialed up and on the "boost", Nikon showed no signs of even feeling the stim, let alone it being a useful positive punisher or negative reinforcer. My pet dog works on the lowest level, which I cannot even feel myself.


I'd not judge the effectiveness of an Ecollar based on using a _"cheapy one"_ on it's highest level. Many dogs in drive won't feel the stim from even a top quality unit. But that's probably not the best way to use the tool. 




Liesje said:


> If I have poor timing with corrections or markers, then I will work on that.


If you have _"poor timing with correction or markers"_ then switching to an Ecollar is not going to change that. Ecollars are not magic bullets. They're not going to turn a "crap trainer" into an expert. It's just a tool, like any other. Obviously you know this but I didn't want someone to take it the wrong way.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

LouCastle said:


> I don't know of any manufacturer who issues a _certification _for the Ecollar. There is a trainer who runs a three week school where anyone (regardless of experience) comes out of it with the title _"Certified Remote Specialist"_ even if they've never trained a dog in their life.
> 
> If you'd like to be a _"Certified Master Trainer"_ I can issue those. You don't need to attend any pesky school, just mail me $25 and I'll send you the certificate. I make them up right here on the computer!
> 
> Anyone who likes to fish can be a _"Certified Master Baiter."_ but those are $35.


Thanks, but I am saving my money to become a Reverend...on-line for only $29.99.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen angry and conflict riddled teams escalate corrections and tools. The e-stim used right might have been good for those situations and saved a lot of trouble. 

But, if a person has issues with their self control or with timing, then no tool makes them better. I have enjoyed clicker training because I think it has helped me learn timing much better.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree, I use a clicker almost more for myself and my own finesse than how I feel about it as a tool. I like to spend some time freeshaping behaviors every now and then, even if it's a "stupid dog trick" and not something use for Schutzhund.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> I like to spend some time freeshaping behaviors every now and then, even if it's a "stupid dog trick" and not something use for Schutzhund.


Me too. It develops the gray matter of both dog and handler.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

A friend of mine says..."The collar can make a blind dog see, or ruin the most brilliant vision." Use it wisely! I would never use the collar without someone who really knows what they're doing working the button, until I am really confident about when and how it's used. 

Oh and Wayne, you must have missed me!! I was at mentioned event, and my dog didn't have a collar on  Neither did 2 of the people I was with.
I did make the same observation though.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

hudak004 said:


> ........"The collar can make a blind dog see, or ruin the most brilliant vision."...............
> 
> Oh and Wayne, you must have missed me!! I was at mentioned event, and my dog didn't have a collar on  Neither did 2 of the people I was with.
> I did make the same observation though.


I knew that speaking in such absolutes as "Every" would bite me in the backside....hats off for calling me on it. None the less the point remains, it was a prevelent tool at the training event, and I left feeling like there is an aspect of training that I've had no significant exposure to.

Left me wondering what I was missing? 

I am an accountant, and have been for 30 years. I remember the folks who resisted giving-up their green-bar ledger paper for desk top computers.

This and the compulsion thread have been great discussions thanks to Anne.


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