# help!!



## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Spencer is 6 months old (7 months on the 3rd of May).

I started right away with crate training when we brought him home. He continues to go to the same spot every time we take him to potty. He seems to be 'holding' onto poop! 
When we first got him he went numerous times through out the day and he had prolonged boughts of diarrhea. Turns out he had giardia. We went through panacur and flagyl and switching him to Blue Diamond Basic (5 ingredients) for food. Poops now mostly normal.

Fast forward to healthier pup.... BUT still the poop issues continue. Our day looks like this

wake.. take him out... pees (forever!!) poops. I wait 5 min while other dogs finish up... he watches...sometimes will poop again. 
Take him in.
1 cup dog food, water.
Take him outside... poops again, usually a bit looser than the first poop. 

Comes in to play with other dogs, me.... if I don't watch carefully, he will poop by back door and eat it, step in it and track it around the kitchen...gross!!!

I put him in his kennel on a nice day (10x10 with a dog house, water bowl and peastone) plenty of toys should occupy him.... he poops at some point during the hour he is out there. Annnnd sometimes he eats it.

If it is a work week he is crated in doors while I am at work...no issues with the crate..holds it. 

2pm he goes out with one of my kids, he poos and pees. They usually hang out with him

between 4 and 6 while I tutor reading, he hangs out with me in office... will take him out in between students...he'll poop or pee. 

6pm dinner
1 cup dog food. 

20 mins later... take out to poop. If I am not right on top of him he will once, twice, three or four or five... poop by back door... I am thinking he is just passing a small amount as when i find it... he has eaten it or stepped all over it smooshing it all over the floor. I am at my WITS END!! Shouldn't he be to old to be doing this?????

He vet checks out all right. He is not on any meds and is healthy!!

Lisa


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

That sounds like ALOT of pooping. 

Mine gets 2 cups am and pm, and gosh, if she poops 4 times a day it's rather unusual. Normally she goes 2 times maybe 3..could be the food?


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

I don't have much advise as far as the poop issue, as mine has runny poop alot too. But I am curious as to why you only feed him 2 cups a day? Is he over weight or is he so small that's all he can eat?


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Maybe stay with him when he poops and keep him on a leash. Pick it up as soon as he goes. Chance will walk right through his poop, totally oblivious. Have you talked to the vet about adding something so his poop does not seem so "tasty". I know there is a product out there, just don't know the name of it. Also, have a blood panel done, check his eosinaphil and protein levels to make sure he is aborbing his food properly. If he is not, could be why he is pooping so much and some of it is loose. Could be early signs of IBD as far as the loose stools and pooping too much. Just speaking from my own experience with two dogs that had IBD.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

He weighs 26 lbs... and small for a GSD in stature as well.. I follow bag recommendation for month and size. Blue Diamond is the 4th type of food and the only one that he can actually tolerate and gives him more solid poops. 

I hope it isn't IBD... that would be horrible!!


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

LISGJE Oh I do stay with him when he poops... when I take him out, he is on his leash. I take him to the same spot and tell him "potty, hurry up" and he goes. 
I don't allow my dogs to go out without the lead on. The only free time he has off lead is in his kennel when I can't keep my eye on him but he needs more freedom than just hanging out in his crate indoors.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he is six/7 months old and 26lbs? that is awfully small Can you post a pic of him?

Something doesn't sound right, are you sure you got the weight right?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This should be moved to the health section. 

If your pup is really 7 months old and weighs 26 pounds then he either is not a pb gsd or he has a serious malabsorption problem. Is he emaciated? 

Also, 2 cups of food is very little. What are you feeding him? 

Did he have any health problems as a puppy? 

Has he been tested for EPI?


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

This was 4 weeks ago








Here he was at 4 months old with our trainer.










Here is in the bath









and here he is on a walk at 5.5 months of age.









All papers say he is purebred and eligible for AKC registration.

He was at the Vet this morning and that is what the scale said. He gained 2 lbs since last time we were there (2 wks ago)

BowWowmeow: I listed what I was feeding...he is eating Blue Diamond Basic. Says on side... 25-30 lbs.. 6 months... 2 to 2.5 cups a day. 
I could give him more...but wouldn't he just poop even more?!?
I'm trying to get thoughts on why he is pooping as much as he is! We are happy he is gaining weight. The vet said he is small for a sheperd and will most likely be the size of a female maybe 60lbs.


Lisa


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lbrennan2 said:


> He weighs 26 lbs... and small for a GSD in stature as well.. I follow bag recommendation for month and size. Blue Diamond is the 4th type of food and the only one that he can actually tolerate and gives him more solid poops.
> 
> I hope it isn't IBD... that would be horrible!!


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/85872-how-heavy-your-gsd-6months.html

Have you seen that site? Of all those GSD's the lightest I saw on the first page was 35 - 40 pounds at 6 months and most were at least 50. There may really be something else going on here. Whether it's that you need to up your food (BTW, I was up to about 4 cups with my puppies during the first year while they are growing, then back down to 3 cups or less when they are DONE growing). 

Your pup has a longer coat than many so I can't really tell how skinny or heavy he may be from the photos.

Also, I'd not leave your dog unattended for awhile. Either in the yard or in the outdoor kennel where he can eat his poo. He may have 'learned' that the more he poos the more yummy treats are available to eat. And you need to BREAK THIS BAD HABIT which will only work when you are present. Clean up all poo immediately, or make sure it's not available for a snack.

But I'd really up the food amount for a growing puppy and you may want to CONTACT THE BREEDER plus add a vet visit.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/85872-how-heavy-your-gsd-6months.html
> 
> Have you seen that site? Of all those GSD's the lightest I saw on the first page was 35 - 40 pounds at 6 months and most were at least 50. There may really be something else going on here. Whether it's that you need to up your food (BTW, I was up to about 4 cups with my puppies during the first year while they are growing, then back down to 3 cups or less when they are DONE growing).
> 
> ...


HE WAS AT THE VET TODAY

I do clean up the poop immediately. We have a bucket by the area... I have an aversion to stepping in poop and even before we got Spencer that habit was set for this family with our two small dogs. 

Its when you take your eyes off him in the house that he poops AGAIN and eats or smears it.. I have added pumpkin and or pineapple...right now it is pineapple as the store was out of pumpkin.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> HE WAS AT THE VET TODAY


Then you need to contact the breeder to figure out about the tiny size thing. They'll be able to tell you how the rest of the litter is maturing and maybe able to give exact information about the best diet and amount that works with their dogs.

Go to the site I posted so you can look at info on other GSD pups at 6 months so you can get a better idea to compare.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

There seems to be some confusion on here as to how old your dog is as of right now. If he is four months in those pictures, looks fairly normal. You may have a long haired as well. Judging by the tufts in the ears, he may end up being long haired. how much does he weigh as of today? If I am getting it correctly, he should be about 6 months old now. No way he should weigh 26 lbs at 6 months. Should be at least 45-50 lbs depending on height and size. Chance was nearly 60lbs at six months but he is a large dog, very long and tall. Do you have a picture as of now? With something in the background to give a proportionate idea of what your dogs size is?


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Sorry to be a pain here, but have you done all the bloodwork? Test for EPI, IBD and other mal-absorbtion issues? All other issue aside though, he is cute , cute, cute!


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

lisgje said:


> There seems to be some confusion on here as to how old your dog is as of right now. If he is four months in those pictures, looks fairly normal. You may have a long haired as well. Judging by the tufts in the ears, he may end up being long haired. how much does he weigh as of today? If I am getting it correctly, he should be about 6 months old now. No way he should weigh 26 lbs at 6 months. Should be at least 45-50 lbs depending on height and size. Chance was nearly 60lbs at six months but he is a large dog, very long and tall. Do you have a picture as of now? With something in the background to give a proportionate idea of what your dogs size is?


Today.... April 19, 2011... he will be 7 months old on May 3rd, 2011
Today he went to the vet and was weighed in... he weighed TODAY 26.6 lbs
that is 2lb gain from two weeks ago. 
I will try to get a photo of him on here that I will go take now. 
But there isn't much difference between him in the photo sitting on the rock and today.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/85872-how-heavy-your-gsd-6months.html <- please click on that so you can compare

And can you contact your breeder about the issue?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And the reason people keep repeating over and over about the weight is because 7 month old GSDs do not weight 26.6#. 

THAT should be some kind of red flag for the vet. Some pituitary weirdness or GI weirdness or something because a 7 month old GSD is usually double his weight. 

What is his height at the withers?


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

after looking at the pics, you are definitely going to have a long haired GSD. They are so beautiful! I have some pics of Shane who was a long haired in my photo albums if you care to look. Sorry to be off subject. all issues aside, he is a beautiful dog!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

PS - looking at your old threads I love how proud you are of him! 

Dogs don't have a context for poop that we do. In another thread I said they probably think we are sickos for bathing regularly - why don't we just roll in some dead animal???? If you want a neat dog, get a Chow Chow.  My Chow mixes are as grossed out by poop, pee and vomit as I am.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Just read the posts and agree, 26 lbs at 7 months is not normal at all. I agree, your vet should be doing tests and you should contact the breeder ASAP. Insist on asking for names of other pp who got puppies from that litter so you can contact them as well and see how their puppies are growing. If the breeder is reputable and honest, they will give you that information.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

On another note related to size, I had a friend who got a GSD from a reputable breeder, papers, health tested, the whole nine yards. Parents were within standards, etc. However, the dog never got over 40 lbs. She was a perfect GSD in all aspects except for the fact that she was half the size she should have been. No health issues and they claimed they had never had a "mini" before. Is it possible that there are recessive genes that can go back multiple generations and then just pop up due to the wrong combo of parents. Sort of what happens when dwarfism shows up in a family that has never had it before? Just throwing that out there. Might be off base on this and please don't slam me as I will admit I am not an expert on dog breeding.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

ok pictures I just took...
One by my daughter who is 5'2" so you can see how tall he is.
And also that is a standard sized pull cooler you can buy at Walmart to also demonstrate height. 
Yes, we are aware that he is a long haired GSD... those fuzzy ears are what pulled me to him!
Lisa


















and this is him being a back seat driver.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

lbrennan2 said:


> BowWowmeow: I listed what I was feeding...he is eating Blue Diamond Basic. Says on side... 25-30 lbs.. 6 months... 2 to 2.5 cups a day.


It has been a while since I actually looked at bag feeding instructions but generally don't they list *expected adult weight*, age, and then amount to feed. Not the current weight of your dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

He looks like an American Muppet Dog! (aka Rocco and Rosa!)


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

The vet was happy he gained weight... I have been questioning how small he seems.
She does not believe he needs a blood panel done. 

I just measured... from the floor to the top of his shoulder he is 17" tall.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lbrennan2 said:


> The vet was happy he gained weight... I have been questioning how small he seems.
> She does not believe he needs a blood panel done.
> 
> I just measured... from the floor to the top of his shoulder he is 17" tall.


Vets can be CLUELESS about GSD's and issues. I had a friend make an appointment for hip replacement for her GSD pup based on poor vet x-rays and the recommendations of her vet. Instead I had her get a second opinion at my vet (who's got vast experience with GSD's) and it was determined the dog merely had a bout of Pano that our dogs grow out of. No surgery needed at all. Panosteitis in the GSD - Panosteitis and Your German Shepherd Dog


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

Very small for his age. But extremely adorable. I realize this may be hard, but if he is healthy, all tests are normal, you may just end up with a small GSD. Still, I would be contacting the breeder. Hopefully they will not breed the sire and **** of that litter again, together or with any other dogs. who knows which parent the issue is coming from.


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I disagree with your vet. Insist on the blood work. You really need to see if your puppy has something that could be treated with medication or not. A good vet would want to know why a puppy that age is not growing properly. If he won't do it, find another vet. A vet that won't work with you is not going to be a vet you want to have for the life of your dog.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Is this what you're feeding? BLUE Basics - Choose the best dog food flavor for your dog


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

He is a very cute dog but there is definitely something going on there with the small size. What size were his parents? 

I would say the tiny size combined with the excessive pooping and problems with house breaking indicate a health problem. I would have him tested for EPI but also find a vet who can do some other testing (pituitary, as Jean suggested, comes to mind) to see if something else is going on. I would also do a blood panel. 

I'm sorry I missed the info about the food: I got caught on the size and the number of poops per day. 

I would also be giving him probiotics and a good digestive aid. Rafi had poop problems when I first adopted him and I tried about 10 different foods before finally settling on raw and adding the supplement Perfect Form by Honest Kitchen. Another good one is Phytomucil by Animal's Apawthecary. That's actually what's recommended for IBD.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Blue Buffalo - All Natural Chicken and Brown Rice Puppy Food

It's confusing to read how much to feed but I think for PUPPIES, what you are looking at is different depending on expectations of adult size. So it looks like a puppy should be getting about 4+ cups a day if they are supposed to end up as a 70 pound adult dog. This is in line what I feed my pups.










I feed my puppies WAY more than my adult dogs.... 4 plus cups a day the first year or so. But when they are adults closer to only 2 cups.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> Is this what you're feeding? BLUE Basics - Choose the best dog food flavor for your dog


Yes, he is doing well on the Salmon one.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Here is the feeding chart for the Blue Basics









He should be getting more than 2 1/2 cups per day. This food is made for adults so I think that is why it doesn't say expected adult weight.

I do agree with the others though to do bloodwork.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And was a fecal done (you think I get kickbacks on those - wouldn't that be great! I'd be rich, rich I tell ya!)?? I have read many things since the beginning of this thread and cannot recall.


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## fam07 (Apr 17, 2011)

We had a GS that was very small. She had similar issues. Lots of pooping, often runny/mucousy and she would eat it. She became VERY thin even through she was eating. Eventually she was dx with pancreatic insufficiency. It it took a while to figure out what food she could digest and we had to add an enzyme to her food but it saved her life. I don't know if she would have been small anyway or the fact that she was nurtritionally deprived effected her growth so significantly. I believe we noticed the weight loss symptoms at about 9 months. She became so skinny before we figured out the dx she looked like a homeless stray! If i remember correctly, dogs with PI don't process proteins correctly and it makes sense it would effect her growth. Monica


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Another vet visit is due. Blood work and such.Something is going on with that pup and it needs to be figured out. My pups are on raw and get 3 cups a day. Poop either before or after each meal, and it is not much that is pooped, and that is it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Overview - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency great website.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Overview - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency great website.


Oh my no... he looks nothing like these dogs.
As for IBD... he is not vomiting nor has he ever. 

Stool test.. done. He was tested and had giardia a few weeks ago, treated with panacur. Retest of stool showed neg. after treatment


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This really doesn't sound like IBD. I just mentioned the probiotics and the digestive aids because they should help cut down on the pooping and help with the quality of the poops. 

It doesn't sound like he actually is doing well on the Blue Buffalo. If he were doing well on that food he wouldn't be pooping so often and have some of it be loose. 

You shouldn't base his food intake on his poop output. You need to feed him more food per day. You could try adding probiotics and digestive enzymes or Perfect Form to the kibble first and then if that doesn't help switching to homecooking or doing raw. But if that were my dog I would want to know why he isn't growing at the rate he should be. If he does have some sort of congenital disease then you want to know what it is so that you can do whatever needs to be done to deal with it. 

Their growth slows down exponentially once they reach about 9 months. My bigs dogs slowed down around 7 months and even the biggest (88 pounds) only gained 20 pounds between 7 months and 2 years old. I remember that Chama weighed 48 pounds at 7 months and topped out at 67 pounds.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I tend to agree it doesn't sound like he is absorbing his food, if you don't absorb food, you poop it out and don't really gain weight.

I would ditch the vet, and I would look for an internist. In the pics he is gorgeous, and to me< he looks the right height but his weight should not be only 26lbs


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

UMM just my thoughts, I find dogs who eat poop can in fact be hungry. I would try a different food, you said you've tried 4 kinds what are the 4 types please?? And then I would double his intake, 4 cups maybe over the day, feed 3 times for a while til his tummy stretches slowly. I would check out this site:
Dog Food Reviews - Main Index - Powered by ReviewPost

And pick a food from 5 or 6 star only to try, or I would try home cooked or raw. For now I would over cook some rice cooked with beef or chicken and add it, the rice is binding and mixed with meat, they like it. A few days of the rice mixture and his food doubled may be good til you've been able to research other foods. 

I would also ask around for a better vet, not all vets are good and I would bet most dog people have horror stories they could share. Call the breeder, ask which vet they've used and oh yeah how are the other pups?? Get info about what the parents have had or been tested for. If you can't do this, if BYB or rescue, then call local kennel club, look in the yellow pages call a few kennels, call the SPCA see who recommends which vet. Then make an appt, get some tests run, it may seem expensive now but in reality it will be cheap compared to a chronic sick dog.

He is very good looking and I'm sure you love him and want only the best, good luck adn please keep us informed


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## fam07 (Apr 17, 2011)

That Pancreatic insufficiency site was great! That(pic of white GS wasting away) was exactly what Bella looked like before diet change and enzyme. I do want to point out that for our dog the weight loss initially was gradual and then dramatic. She had almost all the symptoms on the site and the stool often looked like the pic on the site. I hope you figure out what is wrong with your pup. I know it is very frustrating when your guts tells you one thing and the tests tell you another. Monica


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope we didn't scare the OP away. 

All of our comments about his size were not meant to be judgmental in any way--just worrying about his health and the connection between his small size and the malabsorption issue.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I hope we didn't scare the OP away.
> 
> All of our comments about his size were not meant to be judgmental in any way--just worrying about his health and the connection between his small size and the malabsorption issue.


Nope not scared away  I do understand that no one is judging me... I truly love Spencer and want the best for him which is why I came here for thoughts and advice. 
I did read the bag of dog food wrong.. I am used to tiny dogs who eat 1/2 cup of food at a feeding so having a big guy is all new! 

I did go out and buy an enzyme additive for Spencer and started that yesterday. Yesterday was not a great day for him. The night before, I upped his food intake and it resulted in bought s of very loose mushy poop all day.. I cleaned up 10 piles!!!!! Last night he was up at 3 am wanting to go outside. He peed and I thought he was done but when I woke this morning he had done a small poop in the crate poor guy!! 
Today, while still mooshy, there was a lot less pooping. Mind you, the vet also started him on an anti anxiety drug that can cause loose stools 3 days ago. So this coincides with 4 doses of the vet prescribed drug after the switch of food to one that was firming up his poops.

Lisa


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

When I switched to a high quality dog food, my high quality pup got serious pudding poops. To combat this I fed boiled rice and yogurt with the high quality feed. I stopped the expensive "poop lossener" and went with a good grade food (Best Breed) & guess what? Much firmer stools!
For a while both my dogs were eating stools. I have a big yard. I would race to pick it up. I quit racing to pick it up, they quit eating it. (Game over.) 
26# may be a little small but my lanky female (I see the board is not allowing us to refer to them properly) still only weighs a bit more than 50# - at 19 months. You want them growing slowly. If they grow fast they are apt to get panno. (My last slow grower just kept growing. She was 90 # when she was thin - and it was hard to get her thin!) So it's a hard call. I would think changing food and feeding a little bit more might help. 
I would try those two things (change food gradually) and see if I didn't begin to see a little more weight gain. If I didn't, if the stools continued loose, then I would nag the vet.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad you didn't get scared away! 

I would recommend going to 3 meals a day, instead of 2. Rafi has very touchy intestines and if I overfeed him he gets loose poop so I feed him 3 equal sized meals/day. I have been doing this for 3 years along with feeding him raw and giving him the supplement Perfect Form and he poops once a day and it's perfect. I will say that no matter what kibble I fed him he had poop problems so that's how I ended up putting him on raw. 

And I would also seriously consider changing his over to raw or home cooked for a while to see if that helps.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Ok...so, today has not been to bad! He went out in the morning and pooped... and I'm going to say it.. .a log. He knows after peeing and pooing, he goes in for breakfast. So feeding... 2 cups of dog food...anymore than that seems to upset his stomach. 
Finishes and whines to go out....poops a log again. 

I put him in kennel....little sneak thinks kennel/freedom means tail chasing and when I say leave it he hides in the dog house but you can hear him whirling!!! He was out for an hour and when I went out...another poop log. This was all done by 11:30AM

Ok... the rest of the day nothing. Twice out to pee.

Tonight... dinner at 6:15 2 cups of food. Out he goes right after eating and poops a log. Then we are in kitchen and he is laying in down command and whining and pushing himself backward...the little poop!! I keep correcting...finally he breaks the command and runs to back door...okay stupid me...he is saying he has to potty!! You guessed it... poops more! 

So that makes 5 log poops today...glad it isn't diarrhea! Since that is in control, I am taking him back to vet the week after next...that is our appt. He will get weighed and we'll talk about food absorption. He is is gaining as today we weighed him on our scale and he is 31lbs !!  Go Spencer!!

Lisa


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm glad it sounds like things are improving! He is adorable and looks like he will be a gorgeous boy when he is all grown up! I too would be interested in finding out about his size. Glock will be 3 months on Monday and weighs almost 30 pounds. He was 18.8 two and a half weeks ago... Keep us posted on Spencer!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm glad he had a good day. But I do hope that you seriously consider a new vet. While vets do not always know the specifics of problems with individual dogs, I am shocked that they have not thought that something is wrong with him considering his weight. My not quite 10 WEEK old puppy is just under 20 pounds


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also am glad it's not diarhea, but agree with the others, in my opinion he's still pooping to much and at this age as well, they don't normally have to go poop right after eating..

Hope you can get some answers


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Happy Easter... Spencer got to go to Cape Cod today to visit with family and play with his doggie cousins. 

Spencer has also had tail chasing which all began with the giardia issue he had. One minute he was a normal happy boy, the next a whirling dervish. The panacur cleared him up and he really seemed like he was doing much much better... he was still chasing tail but not as much and he could be distracted... well, we get to cape and poor lil guy was at his tail constantly... we all were thinking it was anxiety meeting new dogs, lots of people etc. My brother went and sat with him, then the kids, then my sisters all of us trying to get him to stop...no good...he was a panting mess. Later we were sitting on the deck with him laying down and I start really examining his tail... turns out the skin looked very scaly ..... I gave my sister permission to shave his tail down so we could really look at it.... poor guy is sporting a rat tail right now. The whole tail was very dry and flakey.... SO, my sister who has a labradoodle with excezma and is allergic to grass of all things... pulled out Relief shampoo and conditioner for dogs... bathed the shaved down tail then dryed it... he whined and cried as this was done. Then she sprayed something on it that says relieves itch and hot spots.... within 5 mins.. he just stopped chasing his tail... STOPPED!!! I am in such amazement!! He played fetch with a ball for the first time, he played with my sister's dog Marli and her new puppy Montana. She was tuckered out after the stress and then joyous playtime and slept the whole ride home (1 hour). Came home, and he has been CALM! 
SO... tomorrow, I call the vet for a skin scraping to see if it is parasites...could well be with his luck. I can't tell you how happy I am to see him not chasing his tail!! 

As for the vet... the one dealing with Spencer is a new vet in our practice. Our other dogs see the other vet or the lead vet. I am going to ask for Dr. B instead of Dr. M and discuss what has happened. He had normal poops all day but did poop a ton again. 

Lisa


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Happy Easter back at ya! Good luck at the next vet visit. I really hope you get some answers. And yes - Spencer is absolutely adorable.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also happy easter, sounds like a good day was had by all

I swear by Vetericyn, it's great for fungus, allergies, itchies, open wounds, etc..it's alittle pricey but worth it..You might try putting this on his tail as well


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

lbrennan2 said:


> Spencer is 6 months old (7 months on the 3rd of May).
> 
> I started right away with crate training when we brought him home. He continues to go to the same spot every time we take him to potty. He seems to be 'holding' onto poop!
> When we first got him he went numerous times through out the day and he had prolonged boughts of diarrhea. Turns out he had giardia. We went through panacur and flagyl and switching him to Blue Diamond Basic (5 ingredients) for food. Poops now mostly normal.
> ...


I have not read any other answers given on this so this may be repetitive, but perhaps you should change his food. This may help decrease the frequent bowl movements. Eating his own poop could indicate that he is lacking something nutrition wise. Change his food and see if that helps any. Some dogs have PICA, and that is why they ingest their own feces as well. They sell these pills at the pet store that you can add to your dogs food, and when they poop it adds a nasty taste to the poop and that discourages the dog from eating it. After using this product for a month or so, they say the dog will probably not eat it's poop again, because it will associate it with the unfavorable taste.


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## plusdoegsd (Nov 15, 2010)

My king is a lighter than most gsd some were not bred for sheer size i believe seeing two ribs is ideal king is 17 months and 65 lbs but he runs alongside me on 4 mile bike rides at least once a day lots of activity all the time. so just keep an eye on his weight and i would run a stool sample by the vet for piece of mind maybe bloodwork.adolescents always look clumsily built but with proper diet and exercise he will look majestic and well defined before you know it.


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## High5 (Apr 21, 2011)

Glad to hear Spencer is doing better. I didn't really read all the post but when you say 26 pounds. Could you possibly have misunderstood the vet and maybe it was 26 kilos? That would put him in the 57 pound range which would be more normal for his age.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

High5 said:


> Glad to hear Spencer is doing better. I didn't really read all the post but when you say 26 pounds. Could you possibly have misunderstood the vet and maybe it was 26 kilos? That would put him in the 57 pound range which would be more normal for his age.


Nope didn't misunderstand. So yesterday I weighed myself and then again while holding him... my scale read 31lbs... but at vet today he was 28.0lbs (we live in USA and use LBS scale) he did gain almost 2lbs since last week. 

I spoke to the vet in the practice, the one who sees my other dogs and who is back from vacation. We went over everything. She did do a tale scraping but it came up negative. She is mindset that it is psychological/behavioral but found it out on two counts... 1. that the spray and Relief shampoo worked yesterday... and 2. odd that he doesn't gnaw on his tail when crated. 

I spoke to her about pancreatic deficiency. She was glad I read up on it. She wants to wait 2 more weeks since he has done so well on the Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive Stomachs. His poops are well formed now and darker...and today he has pooped 3 times instead of many many times. If in two weeks we have issues or regressing, she will do the blood test. 

Lisa


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad your trying the Pro Plan sensitive skin/stomache,,and it seems to be working!
I put one of my aussies on it, for mostly skin, but he gained weight like a pig !! He did really well on it, except for the weight gain. Hopefully this will be two fold for Spencer.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Any updates?


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Any updates?


Hi sorry to have been away... no real updates. Spencer now weighs 29 lbs at age 7 months. 
He gained 1 lb in two weeks... still chasing is tail like a crazy man when left to his own devices. Right now he is sleeping at my feet the crazy boy!! 

I brought him in to be weighed on Friday and spoke to the nurse. I finally said... 1 lb is not a significant weight gain for this boy. I want the blood test to test for pancreatic enzyme deficiency done. Something is not right with this dog. So... thank goodness I had yet to feed him!! They were able to do the test right then as you have to do an eight hour fast! He was sooo good while getting his blood taken.. more curious as to what the nurse was doing to his leg! So now we wait for a week. While I don't want a 'sick' dog. I am hoping this is the answer to why he is so small and why he poops 7-10 times in a day!!

Lisa


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Keep us posted!


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

I am glad you insisted on the blood panel. Your experience is very similar to what I went thru with Molly (except for the small size). Molly would poop frequently, loose stools, large volume, low weight and would eat her own poop if I would let her. I wanted to test her for epi 6 months before my vet finally would. She was later diagnosed with epi,sibo and b12 deficiency. She was put on enzymes and I was able to keep her at around 58 lbs for another year. Then suddenly she started losing weight again, her heart rate dropped to 60 pbm and she was lethargic and urinating alot. I took her to my vet every week for 2 months, and all I was told was to increase food intake and increase her enzymes. This did not work and she dropped to 46 lbs and was skin and bones. She also bloated from the larger meals. I took her to a gastroentologist who ran tests and determined that she was no longer able to tolerate food over 9% fat and needed tylan with every meal to control the sibo. She also needs b12 shots every two weeks. In addition I started feeding her 6 smaller meals per day and add alot of wet food. She put on 12 lbs in 3 weeks and at her last vet appt weighed in a 68 lbs, which is the highest weight she has ever been at. 

Molly did exactly what you are describing regarding your pup. It really sounds like a malabsorption issue. If your vet does not find anything, I highly recommend going to a specialist. I don't believe Molly would still be alive if I had continued going to my regular vet and had not adjusted her meds, type of food and feeding schedule.

I wish you luck with your pup and hope you find out what is causing his issues soon.

Cheryl


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Renofan!!!! OMG!! It does sound just like Spencer!
Today the blood test came back. His pancreas is fine but he has a low B12 level. He goes on Tylan powder tomorrow and this weekend he will begin his B12 shots (I'm going to an appt. to get the vitamin and learn to give him the shots myself). 
Can I ask you what brand food you are feeding your dog both dry and wet?? 
Lisa


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad you got some answers. Is the diagnosis SIBO? 

Here is a good explanation of the low B12: Failure to Absorb Vitamin B12 in Dogs | petMD

Looks like you need to contact the breeder since the cause is genetic.


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## Renofan2 (Aug 27, 2010)

I started her out on prescription Royal Canine Low residue dry and wet food. I compared the dry food to Natrual Balance low calorie (as Epi dogs have difficulty absorbing fat) to reduce some cost. It is pretty similar and she has been doing well on it for the past 8 months. I still use the Royal Canine Low residue can or Pro Plan can food as well as feed her smaller quantity in 5 meals per day. She gets 1tsp enzyme with 1/4 tsp tylan powder per meal. Molly is also a long coat so I think the loss of weight did not look drastic as her coat made her look heavier than she actually was. My vet had a dog with EPI so I was lulled into thinking he knew everything about it, however he did not know more than to add enzymes because it had worked well for his dog. Sounds like Spencer may have SIBO as well since they prescribed Tylan. You can buy Tylan on Amazon for about $47 per jar vs the price you pay through the vet. Some dogs don't like the taste so you may need to buy a capsule maker. Karen on this forum has Lucas who also has low b12 and sibo and needs to be on Tylan indefinately. Lucas will not eat his food if the powder is sprinkled on it. She bought a capsule maker to put the Tylan in pill form and has also seen a huge improvement. 

I am so glad you have found out what is going on with Spencer and wish him a speedy recovery.

Cheryl


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi Lisa,

Spencer is a beautiful boy, love long coats

I'm glad you insisted on further blood testing. We are trained to believe what doctors & vets tell are facts, period. We have every right to challange them & ask for specific tests to be ran.

Thanks for keeping us updated.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Latest....

Still tail chasing to obsession
intermittent diarreah
He now weighs 30lbs at 7.5 months so at least we are slowly gaining and not loosing.
He is now on the tylan powder for over a week and had his first shot of B12 last Sunday and the second tomorrow. He is off the prescription dog food and back on the purina plus for sensitive stomachs as he seems to do best on that. 

Vet called.... he is lower normal B12, high folate meaning yeast overgrowth in small intestine. She sees how he is not a great companion pet due to the poop issues etc. but she said she can't make the 'its genetic' and a specialist might be better but that is a costly route... ummm I think I spent what a specialist would cost since getting him and going to vet at least once a week!!!! 

calling a friend who has a brother who is a vet and see if we can switch to him. 

Lisa


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Another vet visit today....this time with an internal specialist. They have put him on new parasite meds just in case. 
They changed his food again to Eukanuba med food. If he doesn't do well with this then back to what he is on. 

His thoughts.... could be a liver issue which would explain the OCD tail chasing and chronic diarrhea. Only way to confirm is another expensive blood test and an ultrasound. This may come to this in a few weeks. 

If this is the issue it is genetic and he will write a note to the place we purchased him. 
Right now he is in the kitchen chasing his tail like a maniac.

If it is not the liver..... I have no other choice than to place him in rescue... only problem, the New England Rescue says they do not have room and to dump him in a shelter and then give them the shelter info.

So, I am putting this out here. If his issue isn't genetic, is there anyone out there who would take him? I can't go beyond the next tests. I can't afford it and being a single widowed mom of 3 kids who works, I can't give him any more attention than I already am.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I wouldn't dump in a shelter thats for sure( I can't believe GSRNE told you to do that, (certainly not saying your lying, i am just kinda flabbergasted they would suggest that! tho I do know they 'pull ' from shelters) 

I may have missed this, but did you get spencer from a breeder or a petstore? And he's always had the tail chasing thing going on? That would bug me more than his health issues altho they could be related. 

I had an ultrasound done on my aussie awhile back and it was around 180$, so not to bad expense wise. The bloodwork, I have no idea ..

I really hope you can get to the bottom of his problems and not have to give him up, Please keep us updated on him and I'm sure if you 'have' to give him up, you will get some help/support here..


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Well today is July 1st... 

Spencer is still here... he has slowed down his tail chasing but only when on lead. I'm now seeing a connection to excitement. When no one with him, he will play with toys in his kennel, lay down etc... once you step outside the twirling begins! When on lead he will now attend. He is a dream to walk again. Stays in a heal... but.. once the lead is removed he is a twirling dervish!!! I can't tell you how many of my plants he has taken out!

On the gastro issues. The Iam's Veterinarian Low residue food he is on has knocked the constant pooping down to once or twice a day.. still very yellow and very loose but at least its not a day of pooping 10 to 15 times a day! 

He turns 9 months old this week. He weighs 33.4 lbs now. He is still on the small size stature wise. Has the most gorgeous eyes and we love him. He loves his kennel and seems to feel safest there. I keep trying to integrate him into the house so he can sleep indoors as he no longer has accidents when in the house... but he whines and cries and runs to the door to go out. Once out, he runs right to his kennel door goes in and settles right down. 

He gets out during the day to play, come in the house for long stretches and I walk with him in the mornings and evenings...so he is getting plenty of attention... just wish the stomach issue would resolve and he's have normal poop... that would be so much easier to pick up!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

lbrennan2 - I haven't read this whole thread - you can PM me if you would like - where in general are you?


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

The watery yellow stool are pretty classic and diagnostic when it comes to pancreatic insufficiency. Perhaps Spencer is a dog who shows falsely negative results when tested? In previous posts on this forum, other dogs have and, when re-tested, were found to be positive.

Would your vet consider prescribing the pancreatic enzyme as a trial and, if Spencer responds to them, this would also help diagnose the issue as also involving EPI or exocrine pancreatic insufficiency? 

I give my GSD Tylan powder that I purchase online and then put in to capsules myself as he hates the taste and won't eat his food if it is added to his meals. He was diagnosed with SIBO in May of this year and is doing much better on Tylan and Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive Skin and Stomach kibble now. 







lbrennan2 said:


> Well today is July 1st...
> 
> Spencer is still here... he has slowed down his tail chasing but only when on lead. I'm now seeing a connection to excitement. When no one with him, he will play with toys in his kennel, lay down etc... once you step outside the twirling begins! When on lead he will now attend. He is a dream to walk again. Stays in a heal... but.. once the lead is removed he is a twirling dervish!!! I can't tell you how many of my plants he has taken out!
> 
> ...


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

UPDATE
It is now November 16, 2011

Spencer has been to many vet appts and to the animal hospital. I was to bring him periodically for weigh ins. Today he weighs 34 lbs.

I sat in tears relaying my fears that I was going to awake and find him dead from malnouishment. 
They handed me a jug of epizine and told me it wouldn't hurt but if it helped he'd be on it the rest of his life at $100 a can that lasts a bit less than a month. I started the enzyme with his next feeding.. 24 hrs later, he begins NORMAL dog pooping. He now eats Iams Low Residue Vet blend food and the enzyme. His weight has not increased in the 2 months on this stuff though. 

He still chases his tail when given freedom in the house or yard. If in the house and he is left to his own devices, he spins until he suddenly has to go to the bathroom... its not what we bargained for no matter how much we love him. 
no clue what to do for or with the little guy. He does mind when you give him commands but he isn't calm in the least.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

lbrennan2 said:


> They handed me a jug of epizine and told me it wouldn't hurt but if it helped he'd be on it the rest of his life at $100 a can that lasts a bit less than a month.


A friend of mine whose Corgi has EPI has to use that product, and she found it for A LOT cheaper than $100 per month. I will find out where she gets it and let you know.


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## lbrennan2 (Feb 21, 2011)

December Update....

After my last post, I was given the name of a woman who sells the enzyme Spencer needs. $139 for 2 lbs a MUCH better deal. 
Sadly Spencer has not gained weight... and actually went down to 32.2 lbs as of today. I don't take him for long walks anymore or let him jog on the treadmill as he loves...he jumps on it while I am exercising! 

I sat with the vet who finally wrote a letter to the breeder. The breeder refused to take him back as it was past his first birthday.. I got him at 4 months...this past Feb. SO... today was a discussion with vet who says Spencer has no real quality of life. He is OCD or Mentally ill... odd thing, if you put him in for a bath he'd sit still for hours while you bath him or run water over him.... autistic!?! 
He is a sick dog too and things seem to be at peak and now will mostly go downhill. I was advised to make a decision to put him down. 
My friend works at a doggie daycare that also takes in surrenders and they are discussing Spencer's case. They are hoping to take him, raise funds to do the extensive testing on him to save his life. I will hear tomorrow. 
If they can't do it, I will have no other choice and have to do the humane thing for my boy. 
Lisa


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Where are you at? You can PM me if you'd rather do that.


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