# Does anyone have experience with Kraftwerk K9?



## DavidN1978 (Aug 28, 2013)

I am thinking about getting a German Shepherd puppy from Kraftwerk K9. My work schedule is a little unpredictable so I don't know how well I can train the puppy on my schedule. So I wanted to buy an obedience trained puppy from Kraftwerk.

I work from home most of the time but I have to run into the office for meetings, paperwork, etc. so I'll be with the puppy most of the day but due to work may not be able to train the puppy the right way.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm not familar with them, but here is a recent thread that might be worth a look. I'm sure others will have some input to.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/262689-kraftwerk-k9-rochester-wa.html


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

DavidN1978 said:


> I am thinking about getting a German Shepherd puppy from Kraftwerk K9. My work schedule is a little unpredictable so I don't know how well I can train the puppy on my schedule. So I wanted to buy an obedience trained puppy from Kraftwerk.
> 
> I work from home most of the time but I have to run into the office for meetings, paperwork, etc. so I'll be with the puppy most of the day but due to work may not be able to train the puppy the right way.


I own two of their pups, both sired by Karlo. Katie is 14 months and Hunter is 9 months old. Both are absolutely everything I could have asked for in terms of temperament, drive, trainability and appearance.

I have nothing negative to say and would highly recommend their dogs.

If you would like more info, feel free to PM me.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

No experience with them, but way overpriced. You could buy an adult green dog of police dog caliber for the same as one of their "trained" 5-6 month old pups.


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## K.Creek (Apr 7, 2013)

DavidN1978 said:


> I am thinking about getting a German Shepherd puppy from Kraftwerk K9. My work schedule is a little unpredictable so I don't know how well I can train the puppy on my schedule. So I wanted to buy an obedience trained puppy from Kraftwerk.
> 
> I work from home most of the time but I have to run into the office for meetings, paperwork, etc. so I'll be with the puppy most of the day but due to work may not be able to train the puppy the right way.


PM me if you would like my input as I also own a Kraftwerk female from Oruger x Nixe


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have known 5 dogs from Kraftwerk. 4 are/were nice dogs, though one of those was WAY too much dog for the inexperienced pet home it was sold to and ended up having to be rehomed (which the breeder did not help with). I agree with the others though that they are way overpriced and you can get dogs of equal quality, probably with a lot more breeder support, for a fraction of the price.

On puppy training though, there are some things to seriously consider and be aware of. 

First, a puppy cannot be truly trained. No more than a young child can be fully educated. They simply do not have the mental maturity, nor enough time to build up enough life experience, to be trained. A foundation can be set, but the owner must continue building upon it for the first year or so (at minimum) of the dog's life.

The other aspect to consider is that a big part of training is building a relationship with the dog, and developing a means of communication. If that relationship and communication are built with someone other than the owner, they do not always translate to the new owner. Bonding of course will come in time, but if the new owner doesn't know how to work with the dog and communicate with the dog, than the results will not be the same as with the person who trained the dog. The owner simply won't know the dog's "language". For this reason, it is preferable for the owner and dog to train together so that they develop that working relationship and communication.

GSDs *need* training. Particularly when young. If you don't feel that you can provide that I think the wise thing to do would be to wait to get a puppy until you are in a situation where you can, or perhaps look at getting an older dog that is trained and then plan to spend time working with the dog and the trainer so that you can learn the handling aspect of working that particular dog and learn to speak the language.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Well said, Chris.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> I have known 5 dogs from Kraftwerk. 4 are/were nice dogs, though one of those was WAY too much dog for the inexperienced pet home it was sold to and ended up having to be rehomed (which the breeder did not help with). I agree with the others though that they are way overpriced and you can get dogs of equal quality, probably with a lot more breeder support, for a fraction of the price.
> 
> On puppy training though, there are some things to seriously consider and be aware of.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Chris Wild said:


> First, a puppy cannot be truly trained. No more than a young child can be fully educated. They simply do not have the mental maturity, nor enough time to build up enough life experience, to be trained. A foundation can be set, but the owner must continue building upon it for the first year or so (at minimum) of the dog's life.
> 
> The other aspect to consider is that a big part of training is building a relationship with the dog, and developing a means of communication. If that relationship and communication are built with someone other than the owner, they do not always translate to the new owner. Bonding of course will come in time, but if the new owner doesn't know how to work with the dog and communicate with the dog, than the results will not be the same as with the person who trained the dog. The owner simply won't know the dog's "language". For this reason, it is preferable for the owner and dog to train together so that they develop that working relationship and communication.


Sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with these statements. 
I have owned four GSD's in the past 20 years, all professionally trained by someone other than me. While I agree that it may not have been the most cost effective way, it worked VERY well in each case. The first dog was a 2 year old dog I bought directly from Germany and we bonded in a matter of a month or so and his training was impeccable for his entire life. He was truly an amazing dog. The second was an 11 month old trained dog, also trained prior to my purchase.
Most recently, I bought two dogs from a breeder, the dogs are 14 months and nine months old. Four months ago, I sent them to a training facility for 8 weeks of obedience training. At the time they were 5 and 10 months old. So, both were (and still are) puppies. They have been home with me now for two months and the training was awesome....they both can be off leash at any time that I want and I would describe them as having impeccable manners, even though they are "puppies". It would not be possible for them to be more bonded to me than they are....we do everything together.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

"Trained" puppies listed on their website are 3 months old and start at $5500.


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## ten3zro (Jul 13, 2013)

Maik said:


> Sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with these statements.
> I have owned four GSD's in the past 20 years, all professionally trained by someone other than me. While I agree that it may not have been the most cost effective way, it worked VERY well in each case. The first dog was a 2 year old dog I bought directly from Germany and we bonded in a matter of a month or so and his training was impeccable for his entire life. He was truly an amazing dog. The second was an 11 month old trained dog, also trained prior to my purchase.
> Most recently, I bought two dogs from a breeder, the dogs are 14 months and nine months old. Four months ago, I sent them to a training facility for 8 weeks of obedience training. At the time they were 5 and 10 months old. So, both were (and still are) puppies. They have been home with me now for two months and the training was awesome....they both can be off leash at any time that I want and I would describe them as having impeccable manners, even though they are "puppies". It would not be possible for them to be more bonded to me than they are....we do everything together.


I'm curious about the methods that facility used and how much you were able to actually see. Personally I would never send my dog to train at a facility where I was not a participant. IMO those places typically use yank and crank trainers because it's cost effective - they have limited time to give you a finished product. I think Chris was making a lot of sense...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well you can send a puppy to me and I'll train it for you for less than half of what they are charging LOL, no guarantees you'd get puppy back tho

Half the FUN of having a dog is doing the training yourself, it's so much more rewarding when the light bulb goes on when your training a green puppy. 

Personally I'd never even think to send one of mine away for training, guess I like the challenge and that feeling of accomplishment and it doesnt cost a thing


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## SPOR (Apr 10, 2012)

Maik said:


> I have owned four GSD's in the past 20 years, all professionally trained by someone other than me. While I agree that it may not have been the most cost effective way, it worked VERY well in each case. The first dog was a 2 year old dog I bought directly from Germany and we bonded in a matter of a month or so and his training was impeccable for his entire life. He was truly an amazing dog. The second was an 11 month old trained dog, also trained prior to my purchase.


You are talking about dogs that are close to or more than a year old in this case. The others (including the OP, I guess) are talking about a 6-month old puppy trained in basic obedience.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Maik said:


> Sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree with these statements.


I suspect some of the posters in this thread have very different definitions/standards of what constitutes a "trained" dog and that is perhaps clouding the discussion.

In about four to ten weeks, depending on the dog, I can get most of my adolescent or young adult foster dogs from zero to CGC-ready. That means: Sit, Down, beginner Stay (approx. 20 feet distance, 30 seconds duration, little/no distraction), beginner recall (not super picky about a formal Front or Finish), acceptable leash manners in most circumstances, semi-reliable potty training with the assistance of a crate when the dog's not supervised, generally reliable off leash for casual hiking and backyard play (meaning that they won't run off and they'll come back when you ask, not that you can Down them with 99% reliability in the middle of a rabbit chase).

Although dogs vary in their intrinsic distractability levels and accuracy, I would say that at this level, nothing is super reliably proofed and nothing is super precise. There's usually some deterioration in skills when the new owner takes over, because the dog is not as accustomed to working with that handler and it's often the new owner's first dog.

Most pet people would still consider that an acceptably "trained" dog, because they're not really looking for much more. Most performance people, whether sport or working, would _not_ consider that a "trained" dog -- on the way there, sure, but far from a finished product.

So a lot of it depends on where you draw the line. Does the doggy equivalent of a GED count? Or do you want post-graduate degrees and lifelong continuing education?

And a lot, too, depends on how you define "puppy." An 8- or 12-week-old pup is in a very different level of maturity than a 10-month-old. A good breeder can and will introduce a young puppy to foundational skills and positive experiences that will help the pup succeed later in life, but no honest breeder is going to sell a 12-week-old baby with a promise that it's already "trained" from the moment it steps out of the airline crate.

And yes, another reason that I personally won't use board-and-train programs is because, as ten3zro pointed out, a lot of them use heavy compulsion to get quick results that aren't as dependent on the handler relationship. That's something I'm not interested in supporting, not to mention that it would be counterproductive to my ultimate goals with any dog I have.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Blah that's a bad and poorly articulated post but I'm outside the edit window so now I'm stuck with it. Oh well.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Quote (generally reliable off leash for casual hiking and backyard play (meaning that they won't run off and they'll come back when you ask, not that you can Down them with 99% reliability in the middle of a rabbit chase).

Merciel, if you can do that I should send you Jack for a few weeks.

He is 6 and a half and doesn't believe off leash recall applies to rabbits or deer. I could have a T-Bone steak in my hand and the deer would win out every time.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Nooo, what I said is that I _can't_ stop a dog in a high-speed chase after 4 to 10 weeks of training. 

I've had a couple of dogs who would do it, but that was all in the dogs, not me. _I_ can't make it happen in that short of a timeframe. I still struggle with Crookytail sometimes, and I've had him two years (of course, he's a bonehead Akita, and he _is_ lightyears better than he was this past February, but still).


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

ten3zro said:


> I'm curious about the methods that facility used and how much you were able to actually see. Personally I would never send my dog to train at a facility where I was not a participant. IMO those places typically use yank and crank trainers because it's cost effective - they have limited time to give you a finished product. I think Chris was making a lot of sense...


The methods used were extremely positive....at no time were any harsh practices used. I visited the facility several times in advance and watched some of the training. Additionally, I was able to find other customers to talk to (a couple of which were not "referals"). This particular facility trains a lot of dogs, many of which are sold at prices that would stagger the imagination (at least they did mine!). But the fact remains that my GSD's were so well trained, I can take them anywhere off leash and know they will behave properly, regardless of the distractions. After they were at the facility for approximately 8 weeks, I went to get one of them and I was taught how to work with them. I left with one of the dogs and brought him back a week later and repeated with the other dog, having left the first one there again. A week later I returned to retrieve the first dog and again spent time learning how to work with both dogs together. At no time did either dog hesitate to walk back into the facility, and in fact they happily greeted the staff that they worked with. 
Now that it has been a couple of months, I can say that I would not hesitate to do it again. It was expensive, but my enjoyment with these dogs is so far more than it would have been otherwise.


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Merciel said:


> I suspect some of the posters in this thread have very different definitions/standards of what constitutes a "trained" dog and that is perhaps clouding the discussion.


My dogs were trained to have what I call "impeccable manners". Here is a partial list of some of the things they do:

Sit in front of any door to be opened;
walk by my side (one on each side), with or without a leash
Not distracted by people, other dogs or animals, unless given the "break" command;
Sit when told, and not move until given another command (10-15 minutes is no issue, although sometimes they lie down after a few minutes, which is ok by me);
When walking on or off leash, if I stop to talk to someone, they sit and wait;
They do not play in the house and when instructed, they go to their places in the family room and lie down.

This is just a partial list, but as you can see, it far exceeds what most would consider acceptable.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

There is plenty about this breeder all over the Internet. Ask this question on pbd.

all I can say is the prices they charge for the type of puppy you are looking for you can bring a titled male over from europe. Much better deals to be had. Chris also had a lot of good things to say. If you want a trained dog than get an adult. If you don't have the time for basic training a5 month old puppy isn't for you.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Maik said:


> My dogs were trained to have what I call "impeccable manners". Here is a partial list of some of the things they do:
> 
> Sit in front of any door to be opened;
> walk by my side (one on each side), with or without a leash
> ...


Indeed, very much so. 

That's probably going to come off as slightly snarky or flippant, so I'll hasten to (perhaps somewhat ineffectively) add: I'm standing here like Mulder from the X-Files, shouting at the sky: I WANT TO BELIEVE!!

I mean, to get all that on a six- or ten-month-old dog in eight weeks with no harsh corrections and perfect reliability, that is phenomenal. If I could get a pup that age completely bombproof with half those things under all possible _trial_ conditions in that timeframe (not even real world conditions! Just the possible range of things that could happen in an obedience trial!), that would be _amazing_. That would be a career dog.

But I can't, so here I am training my same dog for three straight years like a sucker, and he still doesn't have a bombproof 5-minute Sit-Stay for Open, forget about 10 or 15 minutes.

Oh well, next time.


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Indeed, very much so.
> 
> That's probably going to come off as slightly snarky or flippant, so I'll hasten to (perhaps somewhat ineffectively) add: I'm standing here like Mulder from the X-Files, shouting at the sky: I WANT TO BELIEVE!!
> 
> ...


Well, it did take a month additional with me working with the dogs....but where the foundation had been put down in advance, it was really quite simple.
Here is the website, and I suggest you check out some of the videos....truly amazing. They were what originally got my attention, especially the one with Mark Levine....
Canine Protection International | Our "End of Summer" Special


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

That is a very glossy site that, yep, tells me what I wanted to know. 

$65K for "highly trained exclusive" dogs with no titles, whew!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Merciel said:


> That is a very glossy site that, yep, tells me what I wanted to know.
> 
> $65K for "highly trained exclusive" dogs with no titles, whew!


The mal? He has a title, he's a national champion of something lol. But I agree, bs galore


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Yup, that was my reaction as well......but these dogs have hundreds of hours of training under their belts. I saw several of them in action, and I can tell you they are truly amazing. 

As I said earlier, they are not a budget outfit, but the results are spectacular.


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## ten3zro (Jul 13, 2013)

Maik said:


> Well, it did take a month additional with me working with the dogs....but where the foundation had been put down in advance, it was really quite simple.
> Here is the website, and I suggest you check out some of the videos....truly amazing. They were what originally got my attention, especially the one with Mark Levine....
> Canine Protection International | Our "End of Summer" Special


From their site: 
"Our approach is one of balance. Again, we inspire with motivation to create or induce behavior. We then condition through the use of both positive and negative reinforcement. When it comes to positive reinforcement, or motivation, our criteria is simple: as much as possible. *Our criteria for negative reinforcement is equally as simple: as much as needed and as little as possible*."

I'm still skeptical. Basically what they're saying is if your puppy can't be trained to the level you want in a very very short amount of time, they'll do whatever is necessary (i.e., force) to get him there. Sorry...I'm sure you have great dogs. I just would never send a dog away to be trained without me....just my position.


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

ten3zro said:


> From their site:
> "Our approach is one of balance. Again, we inspire with motivation to create or induce behavior. We then condition through the use of both positive and negative reinforcement. When it comes to positive reinforcement, or motivation, our criteria is simple: as much as possible. *Our criteria for negative reinforcement is equally as simple: as much as needed and as little as possible*."
> 
> I'm still skeptical. Basically what they're saying is if your puppy can't be trained to the level you want in a very very short amount of time, they'll do whatever is necessary (i.e., force) to get him there. Sorry...I'm sure you have great dogs. I just would never send a dog away to be trained without me....just my position.


I certainly respect your opinion. If, in fact I thought for a moment that my dogs would be trained with any harsh methods, I would simply not have left them with these folks. I did my homework in advance, visited the site and watched them work with dogs and talked to multiple customers.....several of whom were not "references" and was able to get comfortable with them. 
They do training for some extremely wealthy clients and do NO advertising. All of their business is word of mouth.
The training was not cheap.....but I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Bottom line is that I am a far better dog owner than trainer!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> The mal? He has a title, he's a national champion of something lol. But I agree, bs galore


I was actually looking at Igor, the Doberman who "placed first in conformation shows" -- this little dude: Igor | Canine Protection International

It's a little weird to me that no concrete information is provided on those splash pages to verify the claims (which show? what organization? first out of how many entries? did he finish? what's his registered name so I can go look that up? because a Dobie who can be a show champ and still work protection at a high level is a dog that might actually _worth_ $65K... to a serious breeder, not a first-guy-off-the-street buyer).

It's a little weird to me that they say "negative reinforcement" when what they probably mean is "positive punishment." That is, to be sure, a minor nitpicky quibble, but the failure to use correct terminology strikes me as a little bit sloppy -- it's the kind of mistake that suggests the target market is people who are maybe not-so-familiar with the topic being discussed.

I don't doubt that the dogs are well trained. I _do_ think the level of puffery and vagueness makes it pretty clear that these are aimed for the "more money than sense" crowd.

It would be a little like me saying "I will sell you a Highly Trained Exclusive Bartender Dog Team! They know cocktail recipes! They understand English and respond perfectly to paragraph-long conversational cues! BEHOLD!"





 
And, welp, if you paid $65K for those two goobers, I have some bad news for you...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Those are yours? They're ADORABLE!!!! I watched it without sound but it's cute enough. 

Yep, that's what I was saying. It's a bunch of vague sales bs, talking about how cute the mal looks and all (I didn't even look at igor's page, I've seen enough). 

You're right, it's for the money crowd that wants bragging rights (I'm not trying to offend anyone). 

As far as the terminology, different schools have their own, as Michael Ellis said, sometimes you spend an hour arguing with a trainer just to realize you've been talking about the same thing but calling it diff. 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Yep, those are my idiots. 

And for the record they don't speak English (the stop/go cues are done via off-camera hand signals) and they can't read labels (Pongu identifies the correct bottle via scent discrimination -- it's a modified version of the Utility scent article exercise, he's just picking up the last bottle I touched).


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> As far as the terminology, different schools have their own, as Michael Ellis said, sometimes you spend an hour arguing with a trainer just to realize you've been talking about the same thing but calling it diff.


This would be true for some terms that have gotten loaded connotations like "correction" and "purely positive" and "dominance." _Those_ words can easily start an unnecessary fight just because the definitions can be so fuzzy and emotionally charged.

But positive reinforcement/negative reinforcement/positive punishment/negative punishment are scientific terms and are the standard language of operant conditioning.

Like I said, it's nitpicky and it doesn't mean they can't train dogs, not by any measure. It _does_ mean the target audience isn't people who take this stuff seriously.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Stepping my foot in the water here

I don't see the dogs on that site as sport dogs gaining titles, etc. but as true protection dogs. Example: these dogs will travel with a high profile executive and is always on guard, just like the armed guards who travel with the guy. Super powers all over the world have such dogs. For someone who wants a dog like that, they are in no way training that dog on their own.

Now, I know nothing about the site that was posted. But these dogs come from somewhere and the price is steep. Forget about Schutzhund clubs, trials, conformation shows, these dogs are not there.


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Merciel said:


> It _does_ mean the target audience isn't people who take this stuff seriously.


What do you mean by this statement? If you mean that their target audience is not dog trainers, then, duh.....but I would absolutely say that the vast majority of their customers are really quite serious. You think that their customers plunk down thousands of dollars on a whim?

While I certainly believe that you are entitled to your opinion....I would suggest you do far more research than you have done before you form them.


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Courtney said:


> Stepping my foot in the water here
> 
> I don't see the dogs on that site as sport dogs gaining titles, etc. but as true protection dogs. Example: these dogs will travel with a high profile executive and is always on guard, just like the armed guards who travel with the guy. Super powers all over the world have such dogs. For someone who wants a dog like that, they are in no way training that dog on their own.
> 
> Now, I know nothing about the site that was posted. But these dogs come from somewhere and the price is steep. Forget about Schutzhund clubs, trials, conformation shows, these dogs are not there.


Bingo!

My dogs only went through the first phase of the training which is obedience. I have no intention of putting them through any protection phases.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Maik said:


> If you mean that their target audience is not dog trainers, then, duh.....but I would absolutely say that the vast majority of their customers are really quite serious. You think that their customers plunk down thousands of dollars on a whim?


Dog trainers, sport competitors, show people, SAR/working people, etc. -- in short, anybody who knows dogs, takes their training and capabilities seriously, and has firsthand experience in any competitive or working venue. That's not the target audience.

I don't think people who are buying dogs from that site or sending dogs there for training are particularly "serious" about training or working dogs in that sense, no. What I see as problematic is probably not quite the same stuff that the knowledgeable protection sport people on this site would immediately spot as problematic, or the conformation people. But I'm fairly certain any of those people _would_ see things in short order that would make us go "welp, that's not something I can take seriously."

Like I said, I really do want to believe. If I thought I could get a superb puppy with bombproof training after eight weeks there, I would be all _over_ that. Price is not a factor for me. But after looking over that site carefully, I am forced to regretfully conclude that nope, the magic I want is not to be found there.

And yeah, I'm doing more research, because I still do want to hold out some hope. I've taken another poster's suggestion to search the kennel name on Pedigree Database, which while not my favorite forum for a whole lot of reasons, is nevertheless proving to be illuminating here.


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## Maik (Sep 24, 2012)

Merciel said:


> Dog trainers, sport competitors, show people, SAR/working people, etc. -- in short, anybody who knows dogs, takes their training and capabilities seriously, and has firsthand experience in any competitive or working venue. That's not the target audience.
> 
> I don't think people who are buying dogs from that site or sending dogs there for training are particularly "serious" about training or working dogs in that sense, no. What I see as problematic is probably not quite the same stuff that the knowledgeable protection sport people on this site would immediately spot as problematic, or the conformation people. But I'm fairly certain any of those people _would_ see things in short order that would make us go "welp, that's not something I can take seriously."
> 
> ...


OK, now we are on the same page. I would agree that most of their customers are like me in that they either have no time or desire to train dogs. That, however, does not mean to me that they are not serious. I take my dogs very seriously even though I have no desire to show them or compete with them. I simply wanted my dogs to have great manners. Having said that, I continue to work with them constantly. Without the groundwork done by CPI, I would never in a million years have dogs with the manners these now have.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Yep, those are my idiots.
> 
> And for the record they don't speak English (the stop/go cues are done via off-camera hand signals) and they can't read labels (Pongu identifies the correct bottle via scent discrimination -- it's a modified version of the Utility scent article exercise, he's just picking up the last bottle I touched).


Lol I figured there was a trick. No matter what, they're adorable and well behaved


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Those photos had looked so familiar to me! So I took a look, I realized why they looked familiar, they are the same as the eurosport k9 photos! Background and everything!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh my GOSH.

Crooky tail needs to be re-trained, no respectable margarita drinker has 'sugar' on the rim. 

65K is way too much for a poorly trained margarita dog.  

_Wasted away again in margarita-ville, searchin' for my lost shaker of *salt*, some people claim it's a crooky tail to blame.....but it's all Merciel's fault_. 




(CUTE video!!)





Merciel said:


> <snipped>
> 
> It would be a little like me saying "I will sell you a Highly Trained Exclusive Bartender Dog Team! They know cocktail recipes! They understand English and respond perfectly to paragraph-long conversational cues! BEHOLD!"
> 
> ...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Courtney said:


> Stepping my foot in the water here
> 
> I don't see the dogs on that site as sport dogs gaining titles, etc. but as true protection dogs. Example: these dogs will travel with a high profile executive and is always on guard, just like the armed guards who travel with the guy. Super powers all over the world have such dogs. For someone who wants a dog like that, they are in no way training that dog on their own.
> 
> Now, I know nothing about the site that was posted. But these dogs come from somewhere and the price is steep. Forget about Schutzhund clubs, trials, conformation shows, these dogs are not there.


Lol. These dogs are likely imports from Europe that didnt make the grade for top sport work...as in washouts. Thats were a lot of cop dogs come from too. Their "protection" is probably highly subjective. Most clients see a dog biting a sleeve or on a suit and auto assume the dog is capable of protection. 
I also dont believe they purely posatively trained your dogs in 8 weeks to stay and offleash heel under distraction. Not that i have an issue with judiciously applied corrections that make sense which are necessary when proofing especially younger dogs imo. If your dogs are obedient and reliable then the results speak for themselves.


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