# Bettering The Breed



## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

This question is directed to the responsible breeders. I am not pointing fingers at anybody. I just don't understand and want to know why so many German Shepherds have the same health problems. 

For example, allergies. Is there a way to breed this issue away? If a responsible breeder is aware that one of his puppies from a litter has allergies, say chicken because it is so common. Why does the breeder continue breeding the bitch or stud and allowing the bad genetics to continue? Don't puppy buyers give the breeders feedback so that the responsible breeder can improve his line? 

I ask this because my dog has allergies. I just came back from Ohio visiting my parents and my dog is itching more than before I left a week ago. My parents have a GS also and she too has allergies. To my knowledge our dogs are not related. Maybe I should check both pedigrees. lol. Both of us had purchased our dogs from responsible breeders in different states. We both have switched foods to no avail. I encouraged my mom to get bloodtesting to eliminate certain foods from the dog's diet so that she has a starting point.

The public loves the GS breed but one day people are not going to continue having them because of all the health problems involved. The dogs suffer. The owners are miserable because they don't know how to make their beloved pet better. It is so complicated, time consuming and expensive. The only one who really profits is the vet. 

Are responsible breeders even concerned with this issue? What is the breeder's responsibility in all this? Just say sorry, it's the roll of the dice with every puppy? I love the GS breed, but may reconsider getting any dog in the future if it's going to cost me a fortune for a purebred of any type. The public is willing to pay lots of money to a responsible breeder because of the time and care put into the lineage. We go to them because we try to stack the deck in our favor when it comes to health issues. If the purebreds continue having issues, we may as well go to the pound and take our chances. 

Again, not pointing fingers. I'm just so frustrated with where the future may be headed and the cost to have a dog now a days is crazy.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

allergies are not always genetic. or at least simple genetic inheritance like "mom has allergies so the pups will" 

also, many allergies may not develop until later in life, so it would be hard to figure out where the allergy came from. was it inherited? did it develop due to repeated exposure? etc etc did it come from the dog or the bitch? 

Allergies in people are expanding in the same manner, esp allergies to nuts. so, I would say that it's possibly an environmental trigger that is making humans and our closest companions to develop sensitivities at an accelerated rate. 
take corn. lots of dogs are allergic to corn, which has been a staple in cheap dog food since it was invented. now, it seems that dogs are itching all over the place. is it new? possibly. 
or maybe people just didn't notice before. dogs then generally lived outside, so extra scratching wouldn't really be noticed. plus, outside dogs tend to smell "like dogs" so who would notice a yeast infection? 

or maybe it's because of over-exposure. all these years of dogs being fed something that isn't part of a natural diet has caused them to build up an intolerance that is being passed on. I would say that might not be a bad thing - more the body adapting to try to get the animal to stop eating something that it shouldn't.

now, if a breeder finds out that pups from a certain breeding have debilitating allergies? then yes, I would say that any logical person wouldn't repeat the breeding. but a pup here or there with a corn or food allergy? I don't know how you would stop that without stopping ALL breeding. 
my dog has an allergy to grass. when it gets tall, his belly gets irritated and he gets a bit stinky. it's not hard to deal with - I keep him out of tall grass that has gone to seed. If we go hiking, I brush him good and give him (esp the belly) a good wetdown to rinse off the pollen. in the worst case, a shot of Benedryl. Not exactly a problem to stop a breeding program for. the same with most other allergies. a simple food switch can take care of a lot of them. (not 100% but nothing is) sure, it can be hard to find the exact trigger, but once you do the majority of allergies are very easy to control.

ETA: I am neither a vet nor a breeder.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think you can blame the breeder, but the environment we all live in. Most food today is enhanced w/ hormones, etc unless you are feeding totally organic meat, then you may see a difference, but there are so many factors that cause allergies and to get them under control is very frustrating.
Just read Dainerra's post and exactly what I would have typed if my hands weren't so stiff!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, one, I've never really heard about allergies being genetic, per say, as in if a parent has a peanut allergy they will be passed on to their children. Although, I do believe that the predisposition to have allergies in general is higher among allergic vs. non-allergic parents. 

Exposure to items seems to be a common cause of allergies developing. I can't remember the paper, or the exact context, but studies have been done that show that people living in rural Africa actually have significantly less allergies than someone living in the United States.

Also, and allergy will not be discovered unless the dog is exposed to that allergen. If the breeder doesn't feed poopy food with corn in it, the breeder may never know that the dog has a corn allergy.

My point being here that while it seems like a no brainer--"don't breed dogs with allergies," it's not nearly that clear cut. If it was so easy to avoid allergies, don't you think that the almost always deadly peanut allergy would have been "bred" out of humans by now?

There have been several comments made to me that even "mutts" are not a sure thing. That anything other than a "first generation" mix will be just as bad health-wise as a purebred.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Also, I see a lot of people that believe they have gone to a "responsible" breeder, and these breeders are responsible according to some standards (like, say, BYB's or puppymills), but are far from responsible or ethical in my book, but then I may hold breeders to a much higher standard than others. 

NOT saying that the breeders your dog and your parents came from were not responsible or ethical. NOT saying that. Just discussing in general health-related issues affecting GSDs. 

I have read many times that if breeders dropped all dogs with health issues out of their breeding program, there would not be enough GSDs left to breed to maintain healthy genetic diversity.


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## Jagenstadt (Feb 1, 2004)

Being a responsible breeder and also the breeder of your female I'd like to answer your questions and concerns being that you have started this topic and are "not pointing fingers".
ALL bloodlines carry and will produce some type of health issue, that's a fact. There are not any lines out there that after being combined many times will not produce some problems. 

The following is a sampling of some of the health issues that are prevalent in the breed.
- Hip and or elbow dysplasia
- Panosteitis
- von Willebrand's
- Posterior paresis
- Cauda equina syndrome
- Pyotraumatic dermatitis
- Skin allergies
- Malignant Neoplasms
- Pannus cataract
- Gastric Torsion/Bloat
- Perianal Fistulas
- Cardiomyopathy
- Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency
- Dwarfism
- Penosteitis
- Degenerative Myelopathy
- Epilepsy
- Anal furunculosis 
- Nodular Dermatofibrosis
- *Acral Lick Dermatitis* (ALD) is a behavioral disorder characterized by self-licking, chewing or scratching most commonly on the limbs. Breeds mostly predisposed to ALD are Doberman, German Shepherd, Great Dane, Golden Retriever and Labrador Retriever. It may occur in dogs which are bored, socially isolated, confined for long periods of time or are physically abused by their owners. ALD should only be considered if other factors have been excluded, such as bacterial or fungal infections, tumors, trauma, foreign body and allergies. Treatment of ALD requires elimination of causes that might have triggered the dog's anxiety and providing sufficient social interaction, exercise and mental stimulation for the dog.

Unfortunately even the most knowledgeable and diligent breeder can not guarantee that any of the above mentioned ailments will not show up in one or more of the puppies they produce, the most they can do is to be there with support to try and help however they can. These diseases are carried in the bloodlines, there is no getting around it. Responsible breeders can screen their breeding stock for hips, elbows, cardiac, thyroid, patella, CERF, DM, and von Willebrand's. I have done all the above and that still is not a guarantee that any of these diseases will not show their face.
A conscientious breeder will do their due diligence to try and stack the deck so that hopefully they will not produce these problems just as a conscientious buyer will do their due diligence by searching for a breeder that properly screens their breeding stock.
MANY diseases such as hip dysplasia have also been associated with environmental conditions, (ALD) which I have listed above is also one of these environmental associated diseases. The symptoms that your female exhibits could be diagnosed as the classic signs of (ADL). I'm not insinuating that is the problem with your girl, merely pointing out how the environment that a puppy/dog is raised in can impact the onset of some of these problems.
- Flea/tick bites
- Eating poison mushrooms
- Poor quality food
- Lack of mental and physical stimulation
- Exposure to pesticides
- Lack of socialization
* The list goes on and on, how much is genetic and how much is environmental? 
How much is a combination of the two? 
How many of these conditions are underlying and do not show up in general without the right "trigger" to set them off? 
Who really knows?

I have in my home 3 generations of the bloodlines that your female is from. The dam of your female, Gigi has had 3 litters of puppies by 3 different sires and representing bloodlines. Out of 20 puppies produced I only know of one that has what may be a food or environmental allergy or possibly a combination of things. Gigi has produced 3 males with one descended testicle and 3 puppies with long coats, she has also produced 1 male with an over-bite. None of these problems are serious health issues, to date all temperaments are sound, all hips and elbows are sound and I've heard nothing but praise from the owners of her puppies. Would you consider it unresponsible of me to continue breeding her because 1 puppy out of 20 shows signs of either allergies, a compromised immune system, possible ALD?
I also have a half sister to Gigi from the same sire who also lives with me.
Michaela has had 14 puppies in Denmark and 15 puppies with me.
She has produced 1 long coat, no undescended testicles or shot bites or health issues that I'm aware of. She has been bred to 5 different sires representing 4 different bloodlines, and just like with Gigi I've heard nothing but praise from the owners of her puppies in the U.S.

If all German Shepherds that produced a few issolated instances of a health issue were to be removed from the gene pool then there would be no German Shepherds left to breed. Unfortunately many generations of intense line breeding has taken it's toll in regards to the overall health, temperament and longevity of the breed. It is impossible to rectify all the health issues that have been inbred generation after generation, selective breeding is the only tool that a resposible breeder has. Along with all of the incredible attributes that we love about the breed also comes some of the health issues, just as it wasn't created overnight, it can not be changed overnight.
Responsible breeders can only due their part in trying to combine the healthiest of breeding stock.

The breeders to beware of are the ones that do not screen their breeding stock, do not show or title their breeding stock, keep repeating the same breeding's over and over. They own the stud dog and repeatedly breed the same females to him. This is not done because the fist breeding was so great, it's done to save money on a stud fee and make money selling puppies. These same breeders also do not hold back any of the puppies from their breeding's for the future of their breeding program and to see how the bloodlines are maturing, they sell them all and go back again to repeat the breeding.

Please do not take my post as being defensive because I'm very proud of the puppies that I've produced.
I hope that this has answered some of your questions Denise and perhaps it will give you a clearer look into the "Reality" of the German Shepherd breed and the point of view of a responsible breeder.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

I really would like to hear a breeder's point of view. A lot of dogs are imported from Germany, so do the dogs in Germany have the same issues to contend with that we do? 

I know these questions may seem harsh, but I just came back from living with a GS that had ear infections so bad in the past that she was on steroids and it has had some physical side effects. She also has some unknown allergies because she is constantly biting and scratching herself to the point that she has sores. The idea of pumping medication after medication into any dog scares me. 

I really would like to know what breeders keep track of health wise besides joint issues with their dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'll get flamed as I'm not a breeder (and Danielle specifically asked for only breeders to answer), but a lot of times people on this board have amazing stories about all skin/coat issues, chronic ear infections going away for good after switching their dogs from kibble to a raw diet. 

So, are the symptoms you describe due to certain breeding practices, or are they nutritional issues. If nutritional, how can an allergy to something that is not "normal" in a dog's diet (like say, corn? barley? oats? potato?) be a breeder's responsiblity?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have a very nice working line male with chronic ear infections and "itchies"..... but only when fed certain foods.
Raw and/or grain free kibble work super for him.

I have often wondered whether dogs that do really well on raw/grain free, but not on regular kibble, should be bred. One can say that dogs should be fed a better food, but the reality is that most puppy buyers will feed normal kibble.
Then they get stuck with multiple vet visits, rounds of pred, special baths, etc.
But how do you check that???? Feed all breeding stock crap-in-a-bag for awhile to see??

Many, many of the problems with GSDs can be auto-immune related, including skin issues. Everything from over-vaccinating, poor diet, inadequete environment, too much stress, etc can trigger problems.
So breeders can do the best they can, follow their contract if there is one, and consider input from puppy buyers. But responsible for all later health issues? Not imo.

PS- there is a veterinary nutrtionist, Dr. Wynn, with Georgia Vet Specialists. She might be able to help you out.
Dr John MacDonald at Auburn is a well-respected vet dermatologist in the area.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Danielle, have you ever taken your dog to a dermatologist? In my experience that is the only way to go when you are dealing with true allergies. Heidi had severe inhalant allergies and it was managed for years with allergy shots.

I know you wanted to hear from breeders but I have been seeing your posts about your dog for a while now and maybe it's time to take her to a specialist if you haven't already done so.

Most regular veterinarians will treat allergies with steroids which only covers up the real problem IMO. 

Michaela


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My dog does better when fed a certain food so I fed that it seems like a simple solution to me...and for me its not a big issue at all


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## Jagenstadt (Feb 1, 2004)

> Quote: I really would like to hear a breeder's point of view. A lot of dogs are imported from Germany, so do the dogs in Germany have the same issues to contend with that we do?


Speaking of Imported West German bloodlines, yes, common sense would tell you that if the breeders in the U.S. see these problems then the breeders in Europe also see them, after all, they are the same bloodlines. One of the biggest problems for breeders in the U.S. is trying to find out which dogs/lines are producing problems. You have to remember that owning a TOP stud dog in Europe is not only a hobby, it's a full time business for many of these owners. They will do their best to hide any recurring health issues that their dog is producing to keep that "Cash Cow" alive. You will often hear the excuse "It takes two" insinuating that the problem is with the female and not the stud. The bottom line is that if you do not have some VERY good friends in Europe that keep you abreast of the "Real" producing ability of a TOP stud then you really don't know what to expect. It's taken me over 20 years to build good relations across the pond with some knowledgeable and reputable breeders and I can't tell you how many times I've considered breeding to a new TOP stud only to hear some of the problems he's producing from my friends. I'm in Germany a couple of times a year and see many of these dogs up close and personal but it still does not give me the answer to the the question of is the dog producing health or temperament issues. Only by talking with my friends who have used the dogs, or have friends of their own who have used the dogs do I start to get a clearer picture of the dogs breed worthiness.


> Quote: I really would like to know what breeders keep track of health wise besides joint issues with their dogs.


I always try my best to keep in contact with the families of my puppies. MANY of them call and email on a regular basis to brag about their puppies and dogs and keep me abreast of any issues they may be having; What to feed, how to train etc. Many have become VERY good friends and many have purchased their second and third dogs from me after their older ones have passed on. Many of my best friendships have evolved through this wonderful breed, without the German Shepherd I probably would never have traveled throughout Europe and made some of the cherished and lasting friendships that I have.
Many families also do not keep in contact in any way, even after repeated requests for pictures and up-dates. I can understand that, many folks have busy lives and time restraints and just don't stay in touch, that's also to be expected. 
I guess that it's human nature to only hear the bad and not the good, it takes all kinds. Keeping track of puppies that are sold is not always the easiest thing if you can not get any input from the families that have purchased from you.


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## lnsmdove (Oct 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: DHauThis question is directed to the responsible breeders. I am not pointing fingers at anybody. I just don't understand and want to know why so many German Shepherds have the same health problems.
> 
> For example, allergies. Is there a way to breed this issue away?


Interesting question. I've been sitting here thinking about the "bettering the breed" mantra I've been hearing for so many years. It's such a blanket statement to begin with. I'd like to hear thoughts on what improvements or bettement have occurred Also, how folks define "bettering the breed". I'm with you it should mean dogs that are more structurally and mentally healthy.

IMO breeders have been doing a good job with temperament. Speaking from an obedience instructor's POV, I remember well, far too many spooky, fear biting GSDs back in the late 60's-early 70's. Happily that situation has much improved thanks to those diligent breeders that cared to address the whole dog. I would also state I'm not pointing fingers. Many, many "show breeders are active in obedience, SAR, therapy dog training,etc.

According to stats from the OFA web site database from 1980 thru 2004 there has been a 5.9% reduction in HD in German Shepherds. While it does show some improvement it's statistically much lower than many other breeds. The complete chart can be seen at http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html?view=2

My next thought is who gets to decide what's better?

Regarding allergies, does anyone know of any studies comparing genetics to envrironment? Something, I haven't seen mentioned is nylon carpeting. I've know alot of dogs of several breeds whose allergies went away when carpeting was replaced with tile, stone or wood flooring.

I think breeders are limited, in a way, as far as making the "better" judgement. When I was breeding, it was easy to improve on my own dogs because I knew them and their lines well enough to know what needed improvement. One of the reasons I quit breeding was because I really couldn't see that I could contribute to my breeds as a whole.

In GSDs there is such a disparity of opion of what's good. If we can't agree on that, how can we unilaterally decide what is better?

Again interesting question, but considering all genetic problems to be factored in I don't see allergies being that high on the average breeders priority list.

Donning my asbestos knickers an stepping to the side. ;-)

Susan
Grace, GSD


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think a lot of what is seen is related to this:
http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/immune%20disorders/selective%20IgA%20deficiency.htm

I don't think a lot of people look at that. Texas A/M was doing a study on it. 

Nina had it, had GSD pyoderma, got GI lymphoma. As far as it being inherited it's unknown, but she was an oops mother-son breeding so if there is something there, then she got a double dose.









http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm this site is just really interesting to me.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

Thank you, Andrew, for stepping up and answering my questions. I was starting to think nobody would have the courage to do so. It crossed my mind to e-mail you a link to this for your input. I know you aren't afraid of speaking your mind. lol. As I said, I am not pointing fingers. I brought these things up because so many members here are experiencing the same problems over and over that I find it interesting. Maybe some of the symptoms of certain issues should become a sticky to save space. 

I was wondering if it was possible to have the same denominator such as a particular dog that was passing something like this down. For example, so many breeders use the same dog as a stud because of his show ratings. He may have excellent conformation but it doesn't mean he isn't also passing down some other poor heath issues. I realize it takes time for all these things to come to light. By then, it's too late for those people who have acquired his progeny and incorporated them into their own program. So how do you breed it out? I appreciate your taking the time to post all the information. I am sure members of this forum will benefit from it. I know I did. 

You brought up ALD which is something I have not heard of before. The symptoms you posted describe my parents' dog pretty well -- lack of socialization, mental stimulation, and exercise. The food is questionable because it's from the vet. The symptoms of continual licking of the front paws and scratching all over are the same symptoms of allergies. While visiting with my parents, I showed them this website/forum so they can become better informed about the breed. 

I asked these questions because I wanted to learn more from the breeder's point of view. Some of my questions are still unanswered such as do the German breeders have the same issues as we do. How are they dealing with it?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Not a breeder but nonetheless a thought:

While some issues are genetic, I think we need to look at what we (as society) are doing. We are pumping lots of polutants into the mix. Our homes are filled with synthetic fibers which are repeatedly doused with assorted chemicals in the name of cleaning.
Our dogs are exposed to pesticides inside and outside and many dogs are urban dogs in an increasingly urban world. But if they are rural dogs, they have agricultural chemicals and other challenges introduced by humans.

Case in point: Fellow & worked with and his roommate had a dog that had terrible allergies. They moved. The allergies cleared up. There was something in the apartment, probably the carpet, that gave the dog fits.

The only true allergy I delt with was flea bite dermatitis in a Samoyd (sp). That's in 10 dogs (counting the two as a kid) and sigh 50+ years.

Now I did give allergy shots for quite a while when the Barker Sisters had mange but were misdiagnosed with allergies.


I think there are other things to consider too. Perhaps the quality of kibble overall has declined. I say this because my early dogs got what was on sale at the supermarket. I didn't transition from food to food, it was when this bag was empty, I fed this other stuff. One lived to be nearly 16, the other nearly 15. 

I think there may be a genetic predisposition to certain conditions but when dogs across the spectrum of breeds are dying of hemangio sarcoma, I begin to suspect the environment. On the other hand, there was a time when many dogs died of rabies, distemper & in the 1980s parvo. Perhaps overall dogs did not live long enough to exhibit some of the health issues we see today.


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## Jagenstadt (Feb 1, 2004)

> Quote:Some of my questions are still unanswered such as do the German breeders have the same issues as we do. How are they dealing with it?


I think that I've answered your question, or most of it in my post above.
The German's have a different way of looking at breeding then most of the folks here in the U.S. do. In Germany most puppies are sold "as is" for the price of $800.00 to $1,000.00 euros (approx. $1,100.00 to $1,500.00 U.S.D.). There are NO guarantees on a GSD in Germany. If the dog comes up with hip dysplasia...sorry, better luck next time, if the dog goes on to be VA rated and a TOP producer....that's SUPER, good for you. Here in the U.S. we are a brainwashed society of people that are programed to believe that everything we purchase must come with a warranty/guarantee. The people in Europe are wise enough to understand that you can not warranty/guarantee live stock. An animal is not manufactured in a factory, it is not a nut or bolt, or car or TV. Many breeder's in the U.S. warranty/guarantee (myself included). It's the only way you can do business here, what many folks need to realize is that a warranty/guarantee is only as good as the person that stands behind it, the rest is all window dressing!


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## Jagenstadt (Feb 1, 2004)

> Quote: How are they dealing with it?


They breed to the best few representatives from a particular bloodline.
Even though they may know that a littermate may have hip displasia for example, they will still use the dog and hope that it doesn't show up in their breeding. Do I condone that? No, not at all, the biggest problem facing the breeders in Europe and here in the the U.S. is the "bottle neck" in regards to bloodines, the diversity is just not there. The only thing that can be done is to turn a blind eye to the known faults with the hope of not reproducing it. It is not a great formula for success, but it's only thing out there right now. The same way these problems from generations of line breeding are showing themselves in the West German Show lines, they are also prevalent in the West German Working lines. Many folks in the breed are trying to out-cross show lines with working lines with the hope of improving working ability, anatomy and health by widening the gene pool. It's a great concept however not enough of the "Bigger, High Profile Kennels" are doing it and not enough of the judges are rewarding the ones that do it with higher placements in the shows. As long as it wins and is the "Fad/Flavor of the times" the breeders will follow it. A BIG overhaul is needed and has been long over-due if the breed can be saved and issues of health, temperament and longevity are to be turned around. The best we can do is use breeding stock that show very little problems in regards to health and temperament and steer clear of the "Fads" even if it means lower placings and lower scores with our dogs at the shows and trials.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

As a breeder of much different bloodlines than Andrew, I will state that American Show Lines have their fair share of problems too. And while we worry about things like allergies, we worry much more about bloat, cancer, and other such deadly conditions. I have been lucky enough over 40+ years of involvement with the GSD to lose just a few to these problems. The one dog I had with allergies was vastly improved with a change in food and some Benadryl.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Please do not take this the wrong way but there are a LOT more "problematic" issues with GSD than allergies. As Daphne pointed out cancer, bloat, DM and digestive issues are more pressing health wise. Not to mention how many GSDs are produced each year without the proper drives and temperament to be what a GSD is supposed to be- yes another discussion there but a breeder SHOULD look at the total package. When any breeder of any dog limits their focus to one or two aspects it totally changes the dog. 

My dogs allergy issues over the years:

Like has been mentioned numerous times before, not all allergies are genetic. Example: when Chimo was younger he had a few issues with hot spots, maybe a couple smaller ones a year. Since I switched him to raw 6 years ago he had TWO small ones, until last fall. Last fall he had CONSTANT hot spots from baseball to BASKETBALL size for about 4-5 months. Both vets said "there has been a lot of that this year and we have no idea why". Neither KC, Rayne or Ari (his daughters) or Tika and Kai (aunts to Chimo) had any hot spots. So not all allergies are genetic. Then he got another one this year about the same time and my first thoughts were "not again" but it was the only one and never blew up like the ones last year. The one this year was only about the size of a quarter. 

Years ago when Lakota was a pup/young dog she had NASTY breath and ears- dark black goopies in her ears. Once I took her off beef based kibble her ears cleared up. But it took switching to raw before her nasty breath ever went away. Later found that the breath could have been from her inability to properly digest kibble (several different kinds over the years). Now she eats beef heart, liver, kidney and ground burger with NO issues. All her raw beef is human grade. Most dog foods "back in the day" did not use human grade meats in their food. After being on canned commercial food for a week in Aug after her surgery- her ears were already "dirty". It was beef based...... Enough to convince me.









Rayne has sensitivites to numerous kinds of fish. Tika, Chimo and KC have had none. 

Nuck has never had any issues with beef. However, the bizarre boy that he is- when he DOES have issues with stress (1) or food reactions (2x).... no vomitting, do not recall him ever having diarrhea... if the one vet didn't see it he would not have believed me...... poor dog get hemorrhoids.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Thank you Andrew for a very educational post. I think that just as with people environment play and genetics play a big role and while good breeders do their best to work on the genetics, owners must provide the best environment.
I have a few questions. My pup is west German Working on Dam’s and West German Show. Benedict who is 8.5 months from the same breeder. The first died in his sleep in May a t a few weeks short on 9. We don’t know why he died, because he had seemed perfectly healthy his whole life. He was cryptorchid. My breeder still had the mom of this dog who is 15 and many of her seniors are 12 +. My new pup’s, who is 8.5 months ,great grandmother was my former dogs’ grandmother. He has one retained testicle, but no other health problems. He does have one soft ear and the breeder said she has never had a dog with a soft ear and playing with my son’s pup could have damaged the cartilage. an environment factor. I did notice when looking closely at the pedigree that Benny’s sires Father is the same as his dam’s Grandfather. Is this common and a way of strengthening certain traits?
How common are retained testicles? If all the parents, grandparents etc, on the pedigree have good ears what are the chances of a pups having a soft ear?
I found out that Benny’s grandfather who he really resembles bled out after surgery when he was only 5. The breeder still has his littermate, a girl who she breeds and at age 9 is in good health. I asked her in an e-mail why he bled very unexpectedly after surgery and they never and they ran every test in the book but never found out why. Any ideas? If it was a condition like Von Willebrands a test would have shown. I plan on having Benny neutered next year unless the retained testicle comes down ( have not checked in two months). Is it possible that he does not even have that testicle? If so how common is that?
I had hoped to be in touch with those who purchased Benny’s 8 littermates and asked the breeder to give them my e-mail. I have written to her several times, sent pictures of how well Benny is doing, but she never answers.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Allergies are hard. 

I had two litters out of Arwen and Dubya. Arwen had an ear infection once or twice before being bred. Otherwise she has been quite healthy. Dubya did not do well on the Iams Puppy so we switched to Nutro and he never had any problem with any dog food for the remainder of his life. He never had an ear infection or any skin allergies. 

I kept the two bitches out of the first litter and my parents got Cujo. I neutered him before giving him to my parents. 

I have three bitches out of the second litter. 

Not one of my five bitches out of this breeding has any type of allergy. Jenna has had an ear infection (yeast), Babsy has had a staph infection, but it was easy to get rid of and certainly not an allergy. 

Cujo has allergies. I buy his food. He was doing fine with Nutro before he went to Mom's. But then he started having coat problems. I took him to the vet and did a number of things. We treated the secondary infection, we switched the food to potato and duck, we supplemented with fish oil caps. We did skin scrapings and skin biopsies, we treated for demodex even though we never confirmed any mites. Nothing worked. We switched him to Canidae and that helped -- or so we thought. 

The months passed and the next fall we had similar problems. I thought maybe the change to the Canidae was a problem. When it came out, we switched him to Canidae grain free. 

Since he seemed to have this issue in the late fall/winter my parents switched their furnace and added a humidifier. THAT did not work. 

I do not know that I have every heard of early spay/neuter being attached to allergies, but this is the one difference besides the actual location between my dogs and Mom's. Is it possible that removing those hormones so early compramised his immune system? Or is it possible that they are no longer providing a hormone that helps the skin and coat? 

I have not had skin problems with any of the pups I have sold. It is also possible that Cujo got the raw end of the genetic stick. 

I do not know that it is good to throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

I think that if Cujo had DM or something equally as nasty, then I would have to rethink whether I want to end this line. 

I think that some of the increased incidents of many things is due to our current environment, what we are feeding, and what we have subjected the dogs too as well as genetics. (Around here, we have a higher incident of cancer in people too.)

Take epilepsy. They did lots of studies on it. They say if you are producing mor that 13 or 15% you need to look at your breeding program. No on knows what causes epilepsy. Is it totally genetic. Can it be caused by injuries or problems with anesthesia? With people it can be caused by both. 

So breeders really want to keep tabs on dogs from their lines, but they need to consider whether this is definitely a genetic thing, or is there an environmental component.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

When I started this thread, I originally thought allergies were an inherited trait like men losing their hair, obesity and immediate family members needing to wearing glasses, etc. 

I believe allergies are just as problematic as any other disease. It makes the animal uncomfortable and if a cure isn't found and treated, it could manifest into something else. Owners spend so much time, money and energy into finding a solution that they may not want to take another chance with a different animal. 

I wonder how many dogs here have allergies that is food related 
and how many are actually related to the outdoor environment. 
It's too bad the companies who do the allergy testing, do not match up the most commonly found ingredients in the typical bag of food. Yep, I know. It's all about the money.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

This is interesting. While this relates to humans, a case that was tried recently at our law firm (representing defendant), our expert testified regarding allergies in humans and he says that if it has appeared in the family previously it will eventually show up in one or more offsprings. 

I would assume this could happpen to dogs as well.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I rarely post here, but wanted to pop on and share a very interesting article about problems with the immune system.

The Rising Storm 

Years ago, I learned about the MHC in my ethology class. In brief, we learned that ground squirrels select mates that are least related to them. Diversity in the resulting offspring's MHC helps them cope with various pathogens and thus they are more likely to survive and produce their own offspring.

I have to wonder, if given the choice, wouldn't dogs revert to a similar behavior and choose mates that are less related to them? This evolutionary programming toward mate selection of non-related individuals is crucial for survival. Yet, as breeders we step in and remove a dog's chance for mate selection. 

Of course I am not advocating the delegation of decision making to our male dogs. (Geez, Gavin would love that!) I am however suggesting that perhaps we examine the ground squirrels preference for outcrossing more closely. Yes, we will lose uniformity of physical characteristics. However, shouldn't health be the first priority? My own preference has become to outcross with a male that is phenotypically similar to my female. I feel this increases my chances that the puppies will have the morphological characteristics I am looking for, while decreasing my chances of genetic disease.

I personally would like to see more outcrossing. (In the German Showlines, just try to find a male without Ursus!) Some would argue that outcrossing just waters down the problem. I tend to think that the ground squirrels might be on to something.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Re bettering the breed? perhaps we should better the people and decide who should be allowed to procreate, then we would most likely die out and there would be no problems left. If we can't eliminate human genetic problems how impossible a question to try to eliminate canine issues. Just do the best you can and don't further damage the breed is all the best can do


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Someone I know often says that it seems the dogs with the most allergies/itchies/skin issues are almost always house dogs and that kennel dogs rarely seem to have such issues. Even though all my animals are "house" pets, I'm inclined to agree. I think that environment does play a major role (as well as diet). I'm not saying we should all kennel our dogs - I don't kennel mine - but having my dogs indoors exposes them to a lot of things that can cause allergies and itchies, like dust, cats and other pets, various fibers/fabrics, household cleaners, air from the furnace that is dry and constantly re-circulating everything I've just mentioned, and maybe in some situations things like dust mites, bed bugs, etc.

I don't think a breeder should stop breeding a good dog because one of the progeny has allergies. If that were the case we would have very few dogs left.

I do value a breeder in terms of support. My dog has some skin issues on his ears and my breeder is always offering suggestions and providing me with medication.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I also strongly believe that a LOT of the allergies and skin issues that is so common in dogs today is diet related. My dogs are house-dogs also. Don't spend a lot of time outside in these winters. Air very, very dry. 

No skin issues. No itching. Gorgeous, plush, soft, luxurious coats. People just fawn over them non-stop and gush and gush how soft and thick and nice coats they have. They are shocked to hear that they are inside dogs. But I feed raw. I also never trim off the fat. From my experience, it is needed for their skin/fur health. And other than our members in Alaska and other Northern communities, I doubt that the air gets as dry as here. They might still develop environmental allergies, but so far so good!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, but I feed 3 dogs raw, and Onyx has allergies. She licks her belly, chews her feet and has ear itchies. I am making an appt Monday to get a diagnosis thru a skin scraping hopefully. 
Thought it was chicken, but after 6 weeks of no chicken she still has issues. Not behavioral, as she was put on Pred. over a yr ago, and the itching went away while on it. It really is frustrating, as it could be anything that is causing it, like someone said, carpeting. Bah!!!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

So far Benny has very soft shiny skin too and seldom scratched. He is an indoor dog too and we live the the Central Valley of CA which is knowns to bring on allergies , at least in people. I also feed raw, with Kibble as training treats. I do not trim the fat either and also give fish oil once a week in thr form of sardines and a raw egg every day


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If a dog scratches in a kennel and there is no one there to see it, is he still itchy?

My point-I see my dogs itch, sniff, lick, and know when it is more, less, or the same. I am not sure you can monitor or compare when they are in a kennel, except in obvious and extreme cases.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Some may be a genetic tendency, some is environment, some diet related, maybe it could also be that we are destroying our dogs' immune systems by constantly attacking them with vaccines. There are other theories out there too. 

Would I stop breeding a dog because they produced one puppy with allergies, no. Would I breed a dog with major allergy issues, no. Can a breeder be blamed if a dog ends up with allergies? Most of the time, probably not.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

As far as the kennel Vs. house issue. I have seen some pretty terrible skin and coats in kennels dogs. I have 6 dogs in the house, raw fed, most have received minimal vaccines and I have no allergies or scratching and beautiful coats. I also have forced air heat and it gets very dry in here in the winter. Me, on the other hand have horrible allergies and am miserable in this old house in the winter. Guess I should blame my parents.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I do value a breeder in terms of support.
> 
> It is wonderful how many breeders here really are available to those who buy their pups, and make them like an extended family. I am sure that can be time consuming.
> 
> I would love to have more support from my breeder and she is only 45 minutes away. I would love to learn more from her experiences with dogs, and more about Benny's siblings and parents.


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## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthSome may be a genetic tendency, some is environment, some diet related, maybe it could also be that we are destroying our dogs' immune systems by constantly attacking them with vaccines. There are other theories out there too.
> 
> Would I stop breeding a dog because they produced one puppy with allergies, no. Would I breed a dog with major allergy issues, no. Can a breeder be blamed if a dog ends up with allergies? Most of the time, probably not.


This.

When I got my first dog as an adult (grew up with dogs, but I mean MY first dog), I wanted to do everything right. I chose a responsible breeder who breeds healthy animals with correct temperaments. I fed what I thought was the absolute best for my puppy (at the time it was Timberwolf and Innova). I took her to the vet and got all the recommended vaccines on time. I had her spayed at 6 months as recommended by the vet. I religiously dosed her with heartworm preventative and flea/tick meds....even in the winter because I didn't want to take any chances. 

Then at around a year old she started developing nasty allergies. She would get pyogenic staph infections from the scratching and inflammation, so I rushed her to the vet and she was given antibiotics. When I inquired as to why my 1 year old dog was suffering from severe allergies, the vet just told me these things happen and unfortunately it was just going to get worse. He then offered to put my dog on an Rx allergy diet. 

At this point I really woke up. I starting reading everything and anything I could get my hands on regarding allergies in dogs. I accessed tons of scientific articles regarding canine vaccination. Long story short....after a lot of research and some misdiagnoses from other vets, I ended up switching to prey-model raw, using Chinese herbs for a few months to try and repair some of the damage from the storm I had unleashed on her immune system, taking my dog off heartworm preventative, and throwing away the flea/tick meds.

My dog is now almost 4 years old and has been the absolute picture of health for the past few years. What I was doing to try and be the 'perfect dog owner' actually <u>caused</u> her terrible allergies. I trashed my little puppy's immune system for almost a year before realizing what was really happening. There may be some genetic tendency there, but I can say without a doubt that my actions led to her developing horrible allergies and I'm just lucky that the damage at least appears to have been reversed by removing certain influences. 

I strongly believe that environment, diet, pesticides, etc... all play a very big role in the majority of allergies we are seeing in our dogs. Genetics do come into play, but I think people are often all too quick to blame the breeder when these particular problems arise.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

Debbieg, call your breeder and express your desires. If she is really good, she'll tell you more than you asked and may inquire if you are interested in joining her with any of her dog activities. 

Some people, such as myself, don't want to impose themselves on others, especially with strangers. I have learned that, if given the opportunity, people are more than willing to talk for hours about their passion. When I was looking for a dog, I called my potential breeder many times to ask questions and always came away with more information than I requested. Talking your ear off is always a good sign.







You are lucky for being so close because mine is 9 hours away and in a different state.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI agree, but I feed 3 dogs raw, and Onyx has allergies. She licks her belly, chews her feet and has ear itchies. I am making an appt Monday to get a diagnosis thru a skin scraping hopefully.


And I feed 3 dogs kibble (granted a "LID" kibble with no corn, wheat, soy, or gluten) and have NO allergy issues.

Who knows? I think it can be genetic, diet, environmental....or a combination of the three....

Also, if a dog is itchy, is switched to raw, and no longer itches, does that mean the dog no longer has allergies? I love raw feeding and wish I had the freezer space to switch, but if the thread is talking about identifying and weeding out the dogs with allergies and itchies, wouldn't it make more sense to kibble feed dogs to make sure we know which ones have these problems?

I don't think this is just a GSD issue. I know many people with dogs that have allergies and skin conditions and none are GSDs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For that matter, if a dog is fed lamb and rice all its life and never has an allergy issue, does that mean he does not have allergies, or he has not been exposed to barley, chicken, corn, wheat, soy, etc.?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> For that matter, if a dog is fed lamb and rice all its life and never has an allergy issue, does that mean he does not have allergies, or he has not been exposed to barley, chicken, corn, wheat, soy, etc.?
> 
> [/quote
> 
> That's what I'm wondering. I don't know much about canine nutrition or how allergies work. I just kept reading that so many ingredients in kibble are bad, so I picked a kibble that has a single meat and a single carb and all three of my dogs are healthy and seem allergy-free. I do rotate formulas so they get different meats and carbs, but only one of each at a time. But if I fed them a kibble with tons of ingredients and fillers, maybe they would have allergies....?


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## MWildner (Jun 3, 2004)

> Quote: I religiously dosed her with heartworm preventative and flea/tick meds....even in the winter because I didn't want to take any chances.


I wanted to comment on this because I too had a dog with severe allergies that I was able to finally get under control while living in Florida where it is a necessity that you have your monthly flea/heartworm preventative. It was a struggle and fight to get her to quit itching herself raw but we won.

When I moved to Seattle, WA and was advised by a vet that they didn't have the need for the flea/heartworm medicine like in Florida, and I could quit dosing her with so much poison, she never had another allergy issue again.

So what do we do in the hot/humid states where we have to poison our dogs every month just to keep the fleas, ticks and mosquitors off. I know there are holistic remedies for the fleas, which I am going to try with my new pup, but heartworm? Is there a supplement you can give that really works to boost the immune system up?

Melissa


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I don't know more than my own experience with Dante and his Barley allergy.

Going along, feeding food with Barley and cookies with Barley, everything is good.

Change foods for awhile - no Barley and ran out of cookies.

Go back to food with Barley - ear infection. Didn't make the connection but changed food for other reasons.

Going along feeding food without Barley get cookies with Barley - ear infection.

That was when I made the connection. 

So Dante did fine with Barley until _*Poof*_ one day he didn't.


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