# Lack of focus



## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I know Grim is young (and male, and Czech) which all contribute to his lack of focus. However, I think that he's also losing drive because of all of that energy is going all over the place. When we were in Bass Pro, he was taking in his environment. He was looking all over... up, down, around... not nervous like, just slowly... taking it all in and absorbing it. He's a thinker to be sure. When we're out on walks or whatever, he's also looking at different things (even though he's nose to the ground most of the time). If I could take all of the energy that's going into his wandering mind and pack it down and direct it into what I *want* him to focus on, I'd be a VERY happy person!! I know he loses some with leaking, too. 

Is there a way (besides trying to gain his focus through treats and food...which so far has been a huge failure, as have toys) to get this? Will time just be the answer? Am I right that he's also losing energy through his wandering mind and eyes? He can be intense when he's focused on something, but that focus is so short lived. It's like living with a kid with ADHD. In fact, ADHD was mentioned as for how his focus seemed when he was evaluated. He's everywhere... and into everything....until he finally tires of his 'exploring' and settles.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Honestly do you think you are over reacting? I have been reading your threads and it sounds reminiscent of myself, 3 months ago. Fast forward to now and I feel like I wasted a lot of time, concerned and worrying about my dog's personality. How to get him to pay attention. What is good or bad for the training. 
You will be able to concentrate his energy. Last night at a brand new training facility, I had my pups attention 90-100% of down time, with a few treats and a ball on a string. And 100% focus on myself while we were doing all the basic OB commands. Around 7 new dogs, in a new facility, I tell you! That was impossible to attain 1 month, 2 months, 3 months ago, IMPOSSIBLE I tell you.

I am not one qualified to give advice. I will say to give it time, he is a puppy. And undoubtedly from one of those lines that I hear and read about (or at least he sounds like it.) I think that both of you will soon understand what the other one wants.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

How old is Grim?


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Jag,
I can understand your frustration and have been there with a crack puppy (maybe not as high energy as Grim) but I not too long ago took a class the was based on Patricia McConnell's book, "Control Unleashed". Much of the class was based on getting focus from your dog/puppy. 
I've provided a few links that are exercises that we did with our pups. I don't know if it will help Grim, but it doesn't hurt trying 

Lesson 3

www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/*OverallRelaxationProtocol*.pdf

I hope these links  work, you may have to copy paste the Relaxation Protocol.
Keep trying, you'll get there!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Grim will be 7 months in about 12 days.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Bear GSD said:


> Jag,
> I can understand your frustration and have been there with a crack puppy (maybe not as high energy as Grim) but I not too long ago took a class the was based on Patricia McConnell's book, "Control Unleashed". Much of the class was based on getting focus from your dog/puppy.
> I've provided a few links that are exercises that we did with our pups. I don't know if it will help Grim, but it doesn't hurt trying
> 
> ...


Thank you for the links! The last one is actually what I'm now trying to teach him. He sits, but then gets up. So I started trying to teach him to sit and stay there until I tell him he's released. I ultimately had to keep talking to him the entire time to keep him there. I haven't had a pup that I've tried to sit or down until released... didn't ever attempt that until they were adults and it was with varied success. So thank you!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jag - when dealing with a crack puppy you have to rejoice in the little things. Don't expect so much from your pup. 

Think of what would have happened if Van Gogh's mom said, "Oh no, Vincent. You must paint like this! What you're doing now makes no sense to me!"

Give Grim time. Help build drive. Take focus and give it back. I spit food out at my crack puppy. When I tell him 'look' he gives me full eye contact until I spit food out of my mouth. Then I let him go (focus) back into his own world. Lather, rinse, repeat. 

My crack puppy is a year old now. I can get him to focus 100% of the time now. But I STILL give him is focus back so he remains highly driven.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Watch what you are feeding him. Some commercial treats have sugar, extra carbs. I would run him, track him, play fetch or tug before you begin an obedience session. He may be settled enough after that to be able to work. 
W/ some pups, the more you try to put control in their being, the more leaky they get. Work with his temperament and don't try to go against who he is.
At this age, I'd just continue with your strong leadership, shape his manners and social skills so when he does start maturing, his Czech serious side is more in balance/try to keep the goofy in there some!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

What else would any GSD puppy do in Bass Pro.

Are you trying to teach focus in store?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Toys are best for this, especially because its technically a training opportunity and not just a stroll through the store. I also didn't realize that you could take a dog into bass pro...nice to know.

If you need to have a toy of some sort in the other hand in order for him to pay attention...then do it. At this age he still has to learn to be attentive and if that's the way you're choosing to do it than you have to have it on hand until he's older, and has learned what you want from him.

Just also read about how toys haven't worked for you...my suggestion is really start building his tug drive at home. Start acting like its the greatest thing in the world to play tug with you. Make him want that tug more than anything else (you just started Schutzhund and I think they'll teach you that anyways). I just watched a video by Ivan Balabanov who uses the tug as a reward, the first thing he does is really get a dog to be solid with loving the tug, then they work on other stuff once the dog makes the connection that the tug is awesome.

The thing is...without using corrections and forcing him to focus on you in a negative way, if he's not into treats or toys it will be very difficult to get his attention from everything going on around him. He sees you every day, all day, and he knows you'll always be there. That cool new thing outside/in the store is something he's never seen before so of course he wants to check it out.

I'd really start concentrating on building tug/ball drive.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

That's another thing we're working on right now... getting his love of tug built up. I ordered a softer ball on a rope since the one I have he doesn't seem to care for. I think later a harder ball would be OK, but right now he prefers the softer things to grab onto and tug with. I've already seen an increase in his want to tug, so I think that taking *that* toy with us would help. 

Right now, we're actually using his kibble as 'reward'. I'm not feeding him from is bowl anymore. He's having to work for everything. He seems to enjoy it a lot more than what I thought he would. I thought he'd be frustrated with it. I haven't spit treats at him yet, but have heard about it. Maybe that's something I need to give a try. We did find out that he barks more when on lead than when off. I tried to have my wife work with him last night. When she told him to 'sit' (which he knows very very well) he vocalized at her, then came over to me. I thought he blew me off.... I don't know if she'll work with him any more or not. It became obvious that it could be much, much worse with him. He's got no respect going for her at all. 

We'll keep on going, and hopefully time will take care of some of this.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Bear GSD said:


> Jag,
> I can understand your frustration and have been there with a crack puppy (maybe not as high energy as Grim) but I not too long ago took a class the was based on *Patricia McConnell's book, "Control Unleashed".* Much of the class was based on getting focus from your dog/puppy.


 
Leslie McDevitt's book.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Another thing I have used to get attention when we are out is by carrying a plain squeaker in my pocket. The noise would snap Bear into my direction.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Leslie McDevitt's book.


Oops! Too many good people to remember


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

at that age we used a planet dog ball on a string that was squishy instead of the hard elte k9 knobby ball, then we progressed to the elite k9 ball, now moving into harder tugs because we are having some disagreements on outing the ball that I don't get with a peice of hard hose. 

I have used food as a reward when I went calm because it does not amp mine up as much.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Jag said:


> That's another thing we're working on right now... getting his love of tug built up. I ordered a softer ball on a rope since the one I have he doesn't seem to care for. I think later a harder ball would be OK, but right now he prefers the softer things to grab onto and tug with. I've already seen an increase in his want to tug, so I think that taking *that* toy with us would help.


I made a tug toy for Bear using an Orbee ball (they seem softer) I bought the earth one, it has two holes and I braided some old flannel scraps together in the length I wanted and threaded it through the ball. It worked out great as a tug toy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Orbees are like crack for Halo, so I did the same thing - made her a custom Orbee tug for flyball:



















She finds the squishiness of the ball completely irresistable.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> at that age we used a planet dog ball on a string that was squishy instead of the hard elte k9 knobby ball, then we progressed to the elite k9 ball, now moving into harder tugs because we are having some disagreements on outing the ball that I don't get with a peice of hard hose.
> 
> I have used food as a reward when I went calm because it does not amp mine up as much.


Is this the right one? Hard to tell if the ball is hard or soft...

Planet Dog Medium Orbee Ball with Rope: Healthy & Natural Dog / Cat Food & Treats at The Animal House


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Bear GSD said:


> Another thing I have used to get attention when we are out is by carrying a plain squeaker in my pocket. The noise would snap Bear into my direction.


I did the same thing. It worked. I bought a few packages of those little replacement squeakers. Fits nicely in your hand.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Orbees are like crack for Halo, so I did the same thing - made her a custom Orbee tug for flyball:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Debbie, your braiding is better than mine,lol. Are you using nylon fabric? I think that is better than using flannel.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

No, this is actually from a fleece tug I ordered awhile back that had tennis balls on it. One ball had already been pulled off, and a second one was hanging by a thread, so I knew it wouldn't last much longer, and there was just one more ball left after that. So I unbraided the fleece, looked up how to make a 4 strand braid on youtube, and re-braided the tug with Orbees instead of tennis balls.


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

Jag, this is the one Debbie (Cassidy's mom) and I use:
PlanetDog.com: Buy the Planet Dog Orbee-Tuff® Orbee Ball - Earth ball - Globe Ball - 5 out of 5 Chompers


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I found the right one (that looks like Halo's) on a rope and ordered it. Thank you!! I have found it frustrating to find a ball on a rope that's not a hard ball! I'm also going to have to find some squeakers. I know that whips his head around... I just keep forgetting to look for them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That other one would work too, I have one of those too. They're the same size, and the same kind of squishy rubber. The continents can come off the kind I have, but it hasn't been a big deal for me. Sometimes I find pieces on the floor, or on the grass at flyball, and once there was a piece in Halo's poop, lol! If you're worried about that you can pull the continents off with pliers. The ball itself is very sturdy, and they stand up well to my powerful chewers. Halo will lay on the floor in the evening while we watch TV and *squish squish squish* an Orbee for hours.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> *The continents can come off the kind I have,* but it hasn't been a big deal for me. Sometimes I find pieces on the floor, or on the grass at flyball, and once there was a piece in Halo's poop, lol! If you're worried about that you can pull the continents off with pliers. The ball itself is very sturdy, and they stand up well to my powerful chewers.


I have two of the glow-in-the-dark Orbee balls from Leerburg, and the continents came off mine after 6 months or so. I just pulled all the continents off after I saw them peeling up, Rayne still loves them anyway.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You guys just reminded me I need to fix Nikon's flyball tug. The tennis ball is about to come off. I make it like Debbie's except there's just one ball at the end and I use a Chuck-It Whistler ball (I think it's a little stiffer than an Orbee and comes with the size hole I need).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I like the pillow type of tug that is used in Schutzhund...you can get them smaller and they have nice little handles on the ends. Dog doesn't have to bite down on the ball if they don't really like the ball that much.

Mine loves tennis balls but doesn't like to play tug with a ball for some reason. So I have these types of tugs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bear GSD said:


> I made a tug toy for Bear using an Orbee ball (they seem softer) I bought the earth one, it has two holes and I braided some old flannel scraps together in the length I wanted and threaded it through the ball. It worked out great as a tug toy.


I did that too, the Gappay strings are really hard on my arthritic hands and I threaded a spongier line thru my orbee. After 2 yrs it is still good(I only use it for training) Karlo likes it better than the Gappay or Elite balls. I change up the toys for more value, the chuckit is a favorite as well as the cheap bumpers from gun dog supply...Karlo loves the bumpers, and they are great to tug with!
















The only problem with the chuckits' they aren't interactive, I don't like to toss the ball away from me, though K always brings it right back.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't know how I missed talk of these balls. I'm grateful to hear of them now, though! Grim has a LOT of new stuff on the way!! I guess UPS came when I was still asleep with a package from Bridgeport (already??!?) but they wouldn't leave it. They're supposed to come again tomorrow to deliver, and I'll be ready!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

get the Orbee-tuff diamond plate ball from planet dog. Virtually indestructible. 
Leerburg | Orbee-Tuff Diamond Plate Ball


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks, I may be ordering him more Orbee balls in the near future. I ordered the planet one on a rope so far. Since I just spent about $200 on toys and equipment, I think I have to take a break before my wife kills me, LOL!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have a couple of the Planet Dog Diamond Plate balls too - they're the same diameter as the medium Orbee, and they're the same chewy rubber.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Is there a way (besides trying to gain his focus through treats and food...which so far has been a huge failure, as have toys) to get this? Will time just be the answer? Am I right that he's also losing energy through his wandering mind and eyes? He can be intense when he's focused on something, but that focus is so short lived. It's like living with a kid with ADHD. In fact, ADHD was mentioned as for how his focus seemed when he was evaluated. He's everywhere... and into everything....until he finally tires of his 'exploring' and settles.


I think you need to slow down like someone else said.. 

For me when I'm teaching focus, it's in a quiet setting in the beginning, then over time I'll add in more and more distractions.. But what I also teach in the very beginning with my dogs is, I'm the most fun and important thing, so that way it's easier for them to start focusing on me and they want to..

And like you said, he needs to explore his environment, so let him, let him take it in and then start asking for behaviors.. reward the good behaviors, even if they last a split second, because you can always build on them..

I also have no problems correcting my dogs back into me and then rewarding heavily.. Especially when they're distracted..

I'm sure with maturity your dog will settle, as I've seen a difference in my male as he's growing up..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As G-burg said, I KNOW you are trying to move to fast. Trying to do too many things. Go to your training classes absorb what they say (and no more), and LET him be a puppy. You are talking about balls, tugs, focus, and who knows what else. You are learning and the puppy is learning, not a combination for either to be going fast. Being a Czech dog has nothing to do with his focus or anything else....he is the same as any other dog with strong drives. In competent hands, yes imprinting leading to focus building and foundation would be better...but Czech has nothing to do with it, the skill and knowledge of the handler has everything to do with it. One of the negatives to clubs, is newbies see experienced handler making much faster progress with even younger dogs and they start comparing....happens all the time. Slow down! Let the puppy grow up and listen to the people in the club and you will be fine! The road to hades is paved with good intentions! Good Luck!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

When I am out in stores and places with new dogs or puppies, I like for them to want to explore, sniff, use their senses to observe and watch - I think it is a "herding breed" kind of thing to do and I like to watch them learn. You could bring some nice pieces of cooked chicken or string cheese with you and when he checks in (looks, eye contact, touches your hand, walks back toward you) click and treat if that is the desired behavior. I am always afraid to have a dog neurotically checking in with me, as I tend to have/foster dogs who need some confidence building, but if he's solid, I can't imagine that would hurt. 

Agree with all others who say dogs don't have watches, calendars, or to do lists in terms of when they should be where in terms of their behaviors, and this guy sounds like a nice puppy who is doing his thing. 

Cuz toys are also fun! Squeaka squeaka!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I think maybe I should qualify what I did in Bass Pro. I took him out to walk around first (he was barking) to get some top energy off and to potty. We went in. I didn't demand he look at me or anything. I wanted to take him somewhere he'd never been. New sights, sounds, things, people, etc. He was heavily rewarded for every new surface he went over, and yes, if he happened to throw me a look while he was checking everything out. He was also really rewarded for never pulling on the lead. A couple times when I stopped to look at something, he'd sit (BIG reward) on his own, and even laid down (another jackpot) when I was looking at boating stuff. I never asked for him to sit or down at any of those times. Less than five times I asked for a 'sit' or a 'down' while we were there. When he did, he got a big reward. That's it. The rest of the time I was watching how he interacted with people, how well he walked with me (not in a heel, either.. just walking nicely), and I watched him looking all around and taking it all in. He wasn't acting spastic about it... he was just checking it all out. A woman on a motorized scooter went by us, and he just gave a brief look. Months ago, he was wanting to give chase to a lady in a manual wheelchair....so I was interested to see what he'd do with that. 

I (more than anyone else) KNOW he's a baby. On another thread, I argued this point to the death. All my previous shepherds had next to no training until they were a little older. Then the 'focus' was able to be gotten easily, they were already interested in balls and tugs, and teaching them to 'heel' didn't seem like I was pushing them. I know I'm not the best handler for a dog I want to do IPO with. However, I'm what he's stuck with. My main concern was "what do I do to get his attention" because yes, I see lots of videos of very young pups that seem to have a very long attention span for their handler. When Grim was younger, he'd follow me everywhere in the yard and at home. His attention span was longer for me. Now he's growing up, and I'm not the most interesting thing out there. I don't expect to have his undivided attention for any long period of time. I'd like to at least be able to play with him, though, with something that is of interest to him. The tugs and balls on rope I had weren't something he wanted to play with. Even in the house with no distraction. The new tug (a soft, leather puppy tug...unwrapped at the end) has been something he's actually tugging with. I don't tug for long periods of time. Just short... and I believe that finding things that he wants to play with will make me 'more fun' in his eyes which will make it easier to get his attention and focus on me... if even for a few minutes of play. He finds it much easier to play with his pug. That's great, but *I* want to play with him. I want him to learn to enjoy tug. He's learning that now, finally. 

I am enjoying every single second of his puppy hood. It's gone too fast, and once it's gone you can't get it back. I want to be prepared as his handler, though, as to what to do with him when he's past that. I want to know in advance the best way to do things to get the results. IMO, waiting until he's older and then saying "what should I be doing?" is too late. I would have known it was coming... and that would be just stupid of me. Also, living in a small house with a small fenced yard, I need to have new ways of interacting with him. We had a long hall to play 'hall ball' in the house we moved from. I don't have that here. So balls on a rope are not only good for attention, but good for just play for us. Tugs become more important than they were before, because I can't just go throwing something across the house for him. 

I'm not trying to rush him, I'm really not. The only person I'm trying to rush is myself. Socking away info. to use at a later date. I did explain how he is now... hoping that it's all just totally normal. Sounds like it is. Yes, I saw a ten month old at the club who was able to sit at the side of the handler and look non-stop at the handler. Yes, I saw that same pup sit in front of the handler and stare at the handler. I didn't think "I wish Grim would do that", I thought "It will be great when Grim is old enough to do that". I've had that attention from previous dogs.. primarily my bitch. However, she was an adult before we ever went there. 

Although I'm dedicated to going to the club, doing the work towards his IPO, etc. he is NOT a 'club dog'. It's not my only aspiration for him, and if he doesn't cut it I'm not going to be home crying or wishing for another dog. I'm not going to sell him or buy a 'club dog' to get titled. He's MY boy. I think it's a really cool thing to do with him, but it's never going to be more important than he is. I LOVE who he is. I have never punished him for not paying attention to me. I've never been disappointed in him for his behavior. He's a baby. Sure, I was embarrassed when he barked like a madman during class the other week... but he got better as class went on, and he'd just found his bark. He's also very bull headed and wants what he wants and doesn't give up easily. It's one of his qualities I find endearing. I'm still exploring his personality, and what that will lead him to do. I never want to see him so obedient that I quash his personality. Never. That, to me, would be the biggest failure ever as his handler. 

He's a good boy. Crack puppy or not. I am proud to be his handler. The advice I'm looking for is to (hopefully) not fail as his handler. I'm sure that if he was handled by someone else, he'd have more focus, etc. He's not, though. So please don't think I'm not letting him be a puppy. I am. I am enjoying every second of it. I'm not envious of anyone at the club. How could I be? They don't have Grim. I do. He is hands down the BEST shepherd I've ever had. The mistakes I've made along the way were giving him too much latitude. Not enforcing what I don't want. Not 'laying down the law' because I love him so much that I don't want to get after him for anything. So while I have goals for him, they will NEVER be goals that would harm him or push him past his ability or want. Could that change? Could I come down on him for not doing what I want him to do? I guess anything's possible. Right now, though, he's a puppy who has been drawing breath for less than 7 months. I don't have too high of expectations for him. I'm sorry if it came across that way. Yes, we're learning together. I'm not in a rush, though. I'm deeply in love, and I want to do everything right that I can. However, no one is going to push me to push him. Even if we repeat the foundation class. Big deal. I didn't get him as a status symbol or as something to make me look good or as something to get titles for me. He's my friend. He's my partner.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I have a couple of the Planet Dog Diamond Plate balls too - they're the same diameter as the medium Orbee, and they're the same chewy rubber.


Thanks for letting me know that! When I can order more toys (without my wife killing me) that will be first on my list. He has a Kong ball that's plastic that squeaks when you squeeze it, and it's one of the balls he likes. It's not soft, though. We have some Cuz toys, but not like that. He's got 2 of them that have the crinkley stuff inside them, because he loves chewing on bottles.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't read this whole thread (or any others about your progress with Grim) but I can show you what I normally do to help imprint focus, maybe it will help or give an idea, maybe not but so far it's worked OK for me....

Basically I start at home (read: no/low distractions!) and imprint that front position and basic (heel) position are the BEST places to be. All I do at first is get into position and praise/reward the dog, calmly. At first *I* move myself into position relative to the dog. I personally don't like a ton of luring when training, and since you are just introducing these positions you can't ask the dog to get into position since he doesn't know it yet. You don't want to start heeling with steps or asking a dog to find heel until he knows heel perfect. So I get myself in a perfect basic or front position and calmly tell the dog he's a good boy and give him treats if that's what he likes. If he makes or maintains eye contact, I mark that with a clicker or my marker word ("yes"). As we progress I add some tricks. I will put yummy treats in my hand and hold it out so the dog wants to go for it. Instead I mark and reward when he keeps his focus on me. I do this to the side (basic position) and with both hands on either side of the dog when he's in front position. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZimDHMHuVM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmO6ews2Bq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGRBkdRJJZM
(there is some other stuff in the vids too but these should show how I start with focus)

I did these simple things a lot with Pan as a baby and it really helped. Pan is a very outgoing dog, high prey drive, and has a pretty low threshold so anything going on interests him, even a leaf blowing across the lawn. But because I did this imprinting with focus, he soon figured out that if he wanted attention, he would come and sit in front of me and stare at me. 

Now the other part of this is having a release word, so the dog knows when you're done and he can break focus. This is crucial because 1) you want to only reward perfect focus when you ask for it and 2) you don't want the dog to become confused about when he's offering focus and when he doesn't have to. Some people will argue that doing this type of obedience with a puppy just mellows them out, squashes their drive, makes them reluctant to do any work away from the handler (bitework, tracking) but I have not found this to be true at all. I just make it really clear what we are doing and when. Dogs can easily switch gears and drives between phases and at this stage you are just making it rewarding and fun (like end a 1 minute session on focus with 5 minutes of tugging). Pan has also done lure coursing, dock diving, flyball, even tried herding (too much prey drive!)....early obedience certainly did not create a dog that was unable to working independently, or squash the drive.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thanks, Lies! One more thing I wanted to add... my main thing about wanting to get his attention right now is that he was 'staring' at other dogs in class. I did everything I could think of including moving to stand in front of him and physically moving his head back to my direction and nothing worked. So there are times that I HAVE to be able to get his attention, and he's very good about blowing me off. So finding something (different toy, tug, whatever) is important for this. When we're out on walks or whatever, he acts like I'm not even there. That's not something I'm worried about at his age. However, the staring (which could start trouble) I have to be able to get him snapped out of. I'd rather not use corrections for this. I haven't really started using corrections for anything yet, except for verbal corrections for getting into things that he shouldn't be getting into. That's always followed by giving him something that he's allowed to have. He has self-corrected for pulling me non-stop on our walks, but that's it.

The sitting in front and looking at me he's been doing for awhile (at home, when training). The 'find heel' is something that they already started in class. He does OK at home, but in class it's a no-go. He can't handle distractions yet. He will offer a sit in front and look at me on his own at home when he's wanting my attention. I'm very happy with that!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Both of mine did that for a while (and went through REALLY bratty phases where they wanted to bark and carry on at other dogs). I did puppy class and beginner obedience with them but at their age, 60 minutes was a LONG time to stay focused in work mode, especially in classes where often the instructor is just talking for 5 minutes. Sometimes I'd bring something like a bully stick to class and give it to my dog when it became apparent he was checking out.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

How did you get a fast down? Grim will take a few seconds before doing it, and sometimes even walk off a couple of feet.... lol! He usually sits pretty quick, but for down he takes his sweet time.... 

I liked your vids. How long have you been doing training like this? I have to admit I've never done any of this training with a puppy before. I always waited until they were adults to try to get any of this. At his age now, I don't think it's too much to work on (but I don't make it the center of our days).

I wasn't bothered by him checking out at all. It was the disruption of the class with his barking that was causing an issue (but he did get better as the time went on), and it was brought to my attention a couple times that he was 'staring'.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To be honest, I used -R (I use a prong not e-collar). I trained down as puppies but didn't really care if it was slow or crooked or they shifted onto their hip. When they got older I sort of re-trained it using -R (but paired with a marker, release, and reward).


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

OK. So me rewarding the 'down' even if he takes his sweet time isn't a bad thing. Good to know. He used to really gripe at me about it. Now he doesn't gripe, he just does it slow.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The way I taught a quick down was to correct...with a prong...and just give a quick pop down when they're taking their time.

Now that I know a little better...my suggestion would be again to really work on his drive first and then use that to train quick downs or other exercises.

I like the balabanov method...release the dog as soon as they do whatever you want them to do correctly and give them their reward (tug). So the longer the dog takes to do the exercise the longer it doesn't get the reward. Most dogs should figure out that they need to do things quickly and will speed up in order to get their reward. But you really have to be accurate and reward as soon as the dog does what is asked.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Another way to get a quick down is when he playing with you and the toy and excited have him in front of you and use the toy to guide him down with the command and toss to him as a reward. Once he knows the down full well then if he is slow you can give a correction of ahha then have him try again. easier to show then explain but have no video.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

on the lack of focus what are you doing with him to build after all it takes time to get the focus you want. i work on that slowly and now if I work on any of that he will drop the eyes for but a second for the reward to enter his mouth but then quickly comes back to looking at me so that is when I know my dog has great focus including does this under distraction. One way to get a dog's attention if he is staring at other dogs is to lift up slowly on the leash i.e in a 90 from the ground and as you do this the dog will feel the tightening and look at you and not the other dog. mark with a yes and then a reward.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

On the 'what am I doing to build focus' question... I reward him for looking at me. Whether it's because I asked him to or just because he does (when we're working or if we're in one on one time). I reward him (with praise) for playing tug with me, because he's paying attention to me when we're doing that. I'm not comfortable at this point with giving him anything other than a verbal correction for anything. One of the mistakes that I made (which I won't do again) was I had him on a prong during class. I only really need it or use it when walking him, so once we got into the class I should have put him back on his flat collar. I did eventually, but not right away. So at that point I didn't pull on his lead for looking at the other dogs for two reasons. One- I didn't realize he was 'staring', I thought he was just checking them out. Two- even if I had, I wouldn't have pulled on his lead like that because it was attached to the prong still. 

I don't think I'm going to get a lot of focus from him at this point because he's young, he's full of energy, and when he goes into new places he's interested in what's around him. The next class will probably be better, because it won't be a place he hasn't seen before. The "rules" were also different, as I had always allowed him to meet new people and new dogs. Funny thing is, at Bass Pro, he walked past MANY new people, and didn't approach any of them. :crazy: He also saw a couple other dogs, and although he noticed them he moved on with me without any issue... without meeting them. I have stopped encouraging him to approach people. He (on his own, it seems) has gotten better about it. However, to contradict himself again... when I took him to the club, he was sort of a social butterfly again. He met everyone, happily played with anyone who wanted to... and Lisa handled him for me briefly which he didn't seem to notice or mind. (My back was burning pretty good, and it gave me a chance to see how I should be standing, holding the line, etc.)


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Actually if you use a prong like I suggested and go slowly where you feel each link go through the ring then you will only need 2-4 links and he will look up at you to break the stare. Then you cna let down 1 to 2 links to get him relief and if he he wants to stare again then you only need to tighten the 1 to 2 links. 

I goofed and did not work with my pup on his staring at other dogs enough and so it later became a problem, I used this to work him through the bad habit. so you can do it earlier and catch the problem. It is not painful just a reminder to look at me and not other dogs is all.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you don't think you need a prong at this point...don't use it. Since you're using it on walks I don't really get why you wouldn't use it in training and you'll probably end up using one in Schutzhund training since you're going to have a driven, big male that you'll need to get through somehow and a prong is the more effective way of doing that.

I wouldn't correct for those things either at this point either as my training philosophy has moved more towards compulsion rather than correction. I think you just have to wait it out, keep working on it with toys/treats, and wait for him to "get it." The more his play drive develops the more he'll want to do things for that play so it will get easier.

I think sometimes we get in this rut when we have a 6 month old puppy and we're watching older dogs and want the same thing. Not realizing that it all comes with time and no puppy is going to have anywhere near the attention/focus/obedience that an older dog has.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

The prong he had on was very small. My goal with that was 'only' to have him self correct for pulling. I have a 'regular' prong for him now. I don't know if I'll have to use it for correction, or if I can get what I want another way. He'll still have the prong on, but I'm going to try to break the staring, etc. behaviors without correction. If that fails, then I'll put him back on the prong. The reason I didn't want to use the prong in class is because I've not yet given a prong correction. I kind of wanted to wait... to see if other methods would work before correction. He's only 6 months (nearly 7) and my other shepherds were adults before I used the prong for correction. We'll see what he requires. I'm not adverse to using it, nor to giving corrections. If he's in the mood to be biddable, though, I'd rather not. I already know we're going to be going there during SchH.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jag said:


> How did you get a fast down? Grim will take a few seconds before doing it, and sometimes even walk off a couple of feet.... lol! He usually sits pretty quick, but for down he takes his sweet time....


How have you been training it? For me it helps to be upbeat and enthusiastic if I want a quick response, but that doesn't always come naturally to people, so pay attention to your demeanor. 

I start training down with a young puppy by capturing the behavior. Hang out and wait for him to lay down: "Yes!", and toss a treat a few feet away. He'll have to get up to get it. Wait for him to lay down again, "Yes!" and toss a treat. Within a few minutes I had the puppy running back to me an throwing themselves into a down. Once puppy was offering up a consistent and fast down, THEN I'd name it by adding the cue right before the puppy did it. I might add movement too, so after tossing the treat I would quickly back up a few feet so the puppy had to come towards me. Standing still doing drills is boring, so make it fun by moving around. 

With a toy, I'd get him going, have him out it, cue the down, and the second he lays down, "Yes!" and let him tug some more. Once he gets the idea that play continues immediately when he does what you want, he should start slamming himself into a down. 

If you want duration, I'd use praise in a low soothing word (don't be all amped up here), as a "keep going" signal, reward him in position a few times, and then release to play again. You could correct him for not downing fast enough, but I think your ultimate goal is for him to WANT to work with you, yes? If so, I think it would be better to increase his motivation to work, and too much correction may not have the desired effect.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you for the info! I did notice when he was evaluated that I was being WAY too flat in working with him. No wonder he wasn't doing what I wanted in a snappy fashion! :crazy:


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

More stimulation, maybe? Ask him to lie down before you throw his ball. He will do it more willingly if he expects something. "Down!" in this case would be an unavoidable step before he runs to catch it. Ask him to lie down before you put his collar on and go for your morning walk. Before anything desirable.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jag said:


> Thank you for the info! I did notice when he was evaluated that I was being WAY too flat in working with him. No wonder he wasn't doing what I wanted in a snappy fashion! :crazy:


I always figure if I'm not making a fool of myself when I'm training in public, I'm doing it wrong, lol! I used to feel self conscious about it, but I got over that a long time ago. :laugh:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh: fun game I played with Halo when she was little - the Whiplash Turn. I'd stand in one place and toss a treat across the room (kibble is good for this because it travels), she'd run after it and as soon as she got to it I'd say her name, marking the exact second she turned her head back towards me, and then I'd give her another treat when she ran back. Rinse, repeat. Halo thought this was so fun that my kitty Emmy was sitting on the floor under the breakfast table right next to where Halo was running by, and she never even looked at her, she was totally into the game. Zip, zip, zip, back and forth.

You can do this around the house too, any time he's in the vicinity but walking away from you or turned in the other direction - call his name and mark the whiplash turn of his head, and reward. If you do it that way it's especially helpful if you add movement - back quickly away from him so he has to run to get to you.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Well, I was being more flat because he can be SO over the top excited anyway. He can't think straight. Just played that 'down' game with him... he jumped on me, walked away, came back, barked and vocalized at me, jumped on me a few more times... I FINALLY got him to 'down'. :crazy: I couldn't throw the treat away from me, because he wouldn't go after it. He'd just jump on me full force looking for his 'treat' and bark at me. He's a crack puppy, LOL!! We did some tug then (practiced 'out', too!) and after some spent energy he finally calmed a little. I don't get more of his attention by being more animated... I just create this vortex that's all over the place! :help:


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