# Some thoughts on this?



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

I was reading through some old post and found this:

“The problem is there are not a lot of breeders TRYING to breed top competition dogs in this country (referring to US). They try to breed good medium dogs that make good pets and do the work but overseas they ARE trying to breed top sport dogs.”


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Most of the dogs in the U.S. are companions first and competitors second (as a hobby) in my humble opinion.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

It’s an interesting take. It’s hard to place the more extreme dogs. There’s not as many working homes for these dogs. I think it comes down to what you think of the dogs produced here.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I was reading through some old post and found this:
> 
> “The problem is there are not a lot of breeders TRYING to breed top competition dogs in this country (referring to US). They try to breed good medium dogs that make good pets and do the work but overseas they ARE trying to breed top sport dogs.”
> 
> ...


IMO, breeders should not be breeding strictly for top sports dogs or pets. They should be breeding for balance and all around working ability and health. When you do that then you you will have pups in the litter that will be suitable for not only sport but also as pets, LE, SAR, PP, etc.

The real problem, IMO, is that most breeders lack understanding and many are so clueless that they don't even know what a punnett square is lol.

I think it would also be useful if you could cite your quotation so that we can read the context in which that quote was taken from. Thank you.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> IMO, breeders should not be breeding strictly for top sports dogs or pets. They should be breeding for balance and all around working ability and health. When you do that then you you will have pups in the litter that will be suitable for not only sport but also as pets, LE, SAR, PP, etc.
> 
> The real problem, IMO, is that most breeders lack understanding and many are so clueless that they don't even know what a punnet square is lol.
> 
> I think it would also be useful if you could cite your quotation so that we can read the context in which that quote was taken from. Thank you.


It’s a quote, maybe you can search it. Not sure if it’ll pop up that way. It’s on this forum. I’d have to try to find it again. 


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> It’s a quote, maybe you can search it. Not sure if it’ll pop up that way. It’s on this forum. I’d have to try to find it again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No problem. I couldn't find it either.

If you happen to come across it again, I would appreciate it as I'm curious.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

I am not a breeder what is a punnet square


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

HollandN said:


> I am not a breeder what is a punnet square












Punnett square - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

For context:









Thoughts


General comment: With sport or police, I think there are tendencies many times to rush the dog along. Just because a dog "can" do something, doesn't necessarily mean they "should", based either on physical limitations or maturity level. I think it's far more important to work foundational...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

let's reverse engineer the question: where/what is the "top competition" in n. america?


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I agree about needing "balance" in breeding. And, maybe that is occurring? I don't have relationships with lots of breeders, so who knows what the mix of balanced/compartmentalized attributes truly is? If you watch the RCMP videos, they seem to check a lot of boxes, IMHO. Not being a sports person, I can see myself being perfectly happy with dogs bred and reared the way these people do it.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Just to clarify, I did put this in the schutzhund section purposely. 


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Roger that.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Rionel said:


> Roger that.


That Wasn’t necessarily directed at you. Others have said similar but the context of the original thread was geared to sport dogs so just keeping it there. 


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> That Wasn’t necessarily directed at you. Others have said similar but the context of the original thread was geared to sport dogs so just keeping it there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely. "Roger" as in "affirmative". Old radio talk.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Just to clarify, I did put this in the schutzhund section purposely.


I thought about that before I replied. "Schutzhund/ipo and protection sports." It's a cert and a sport. Cert first. I think the proverbial "balanced dog" should cert, but that hardly qualifies for "top competition." I think most "top competitor trainers" want an import, and frankly I don't think anybody's beating n. american breeder doors down for "sport dogs."

No agenda. If I'm wrong about that somebody please correct me. To tell the truth I'd rather be wrong.

akc gsd ranks #3 most registered breed in 2020. That's a lot of gsds! How many of those train for an ipg cert? How many of those buyers were in the market for a "top competition dog?"

who/what is the "top competition" in n. america?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think that statement is the answer to why you see more big time stir or competition dogs come from over seas than here. It’s because it’s not the focus of a lot of breeders. I think that comes down to the market. There aren’t a lot of homes buying dogs to compete at high levels, at least not as the primary goal. Most dogs here aren’t kenneled outside most of the day here either. They’re expected to function amongst the family. I think the dogs produced match the market.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Do many top competition trainers even begin w/ 7 wk pups? I believe I've heard it suggested most prefer to eval young/green dogs?



Bearshandler said:


> Most dogs here aren’t kenneled outside most of the day here either. They’re expected to function amongst the family. I think the dogs produced match the market.


I can't even imagine trying to keep little igor in the house, and he was reared in a house . He didn't last 15 minutes in my house. I shudder to think what became of his littermates. No idea if any of them were "sporty" but little igor isn't at all. At least not according to my definition of the word. If he were, I'd be plastering images of me swingin' him all over the place; and you know it


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> Do many top competition trainers even begin w/ 7 wk pups? I believe I've heard it suggested most prefer to eval young/green dogs?


It’s a mixed bag, but I see more success from dogs bought older. You get some that with puppies, some with puppies from their own breedings, some with green dogs, all the way to some bought already titled. Some have dogs in every category. The living situations are also just as varied.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

~grinning ear to ear~ new moon! just had a bunch of new moon stuff happen here, _right now _(not gsd related)_; _but the time is ripe! Tomorrow morning, rather than release, I'll bungee little igor to a stump and see if we can't get a decent foto on the bitearm. Camera on the charger. YEEHAW!!!


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I thought about that before I replied. "Schutzhund/ipo and protection sports." It's a cert and a sport. Cert first. I think the proverbial "balanced dog" should cert, but that hardly qualifies for "top competition."


There's an old discussion in the forum that might be worth re-reading, especially Cliffson1's remarks. There's no getting away from foundation, regardless of the dog's use. Some will be better than others, but I think Cliffson1 point's out just how broad and predominantly a good foundation dog's ped can supply many venues. Here it is for anyone who'd like to read on Lord v Gleisdreieck.









Lord vom Gleisdreieck in a pedigree


What traits would you expect Lord vom Gleisdreieck to bring to his descendents? What might you also want to include in a breeding in which one of the prospective mates had him in his/her pedigree, i.e. what other lines would best balance his traits? When I say traits, I mean those that can (and...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

WIBackpacker said:


> For context:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting and nice find.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

_"As to your comment about breeding for working being detrimental, another comment that sounds good to the uninformed, but highly inaccurate. A German Shepherd that is truly bred for working(and I didn't say sport), is going to have to have good health, good strucure, and good temperament. It will be a balanced dog, it will not have the extremes of the winning conformation dogs, or the extremes of top sport dogs, or only one color predominatly. These extremes are the results of "likes" breeders....people who LIKE a certain aspect to the detriment of allowing other issues go out of sinc. These type of breeders are killing the breed, imo, and have created and maintained the "lines". 
When we get back to dogs like Marko vom Cellerland, a top conformation dog, who had one parent that was HGH(herding), who was renowned for producing working stock to include herding, also obedience stock, conformation stock, and all colors of the spectrum(one of the traits that knocked him out of the four pillars in Germany with Canto, Quanto, and Mutz, the fact that he produced blacks and bi-colors and that didn't fit the show world requisite), then you will see the breed improve in all phases and you will also see our beloved breed become dominant again in working vocations instead of couches. But this will never happen as long as the breeders themselves don't understand what it takes to restore the breed to this plateau. (Or in many cases can't get past their addictions to their "likes" continuing the extremes or imbalances. JMO "_ - @cliffson1

_"One last thing, knowledgable and responsible breeders, DONT breed for winning, or competitiveness, or for winning in the show ring.....knowledgable breeders don't chase the fads that are required to be successful in those endeavors. Knowledgable breeders have integrity to the standard of the breed as written and strive to produce it without omiting parts that they may or may not like."_ - @cliffson1


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> _"As to your comment about breeding for working being detrimental, another comment that sounds good to the uninformed, but highly inaccurate. A German Shepherd that is truly bred for working(and I didn't say sport), is going to have to have good health, good strucure, and good temperament. It will be a balanced dog, it will not have the extremes of the winning conformation dogs, or the extremes of top sport dogs, or only one color predominatly. These extremes are the results of "likes" breeders....people who LIKE a certain aspect to the detriment of allowing other issues go out of sinc. These type of breeders are killing the breed, imo, and have created and maintained the "lines".
> When we get back to dogs like Marko vom Cellerland, a top conformation dog, who had one parent that was HGH(herding), who was renowned for producing working stock to include herding, also obedience stock, conformation stock, and all colors of the spectrum(one of the traits that knocked him out of the four pillars in Germany with Canto, Quanto, and Mutz, the fact that he produced blacks and bi-colors and that didn't fit the show world requisite), then you will see the breed improve in all phases and you will also see our beloved breed become dominant again in working vocations instead of couches. But this will never happen as long as the breeders themselves don't understand what it takes to restore the breed to this plateau. (Or in many cases can't get past their addictions to their "likes" continuing the extremes or imbalances. JMO "_ - @cliffson1
> 
> _"One last thing, knowledgable and responsible breeders, DONT breed for winning, or competitiveness, or for winning in the show ring.....knowledgable breeders don't chase the fads that are required to be successful in those endeavors. Knowledgable breeders have integrity to the standard of the breed as written and strive to produce it without omiting parts that they may or may not like."_ - @cliffson1


Ok, won’t lie, I read about 1/2 of that but I will say when people say “real” work, not sport...how many actually have a use for “real” work??


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> Ok, won’t lie, I read about 1/2 of that but I will say when people say “real” work, not sport...how many actually have a use for “real” work??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And the last quote, I disagree with. If I was a breeder, I’d def breed what I liked. There’s great variation in shepherds. I know from just the 2 I own. 


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Ok, won’t lie, I read about 1/2 of that but I will say when people say “real” work, not sport...how many actually have a use for “real” work??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You don't think companion/pet dog is not real work ?

Here is what Cliff said: _"A German Shepherd that is truly bred for working(and I didn't say sport), is going to have to have good health, good strucure, and good temperament. It will be a balanced dog, it will not have the extremes of the winning conformation dogs, or the extremes of top sport dogs, or only one color predominatly." - cliffson1_

The dog that is bred for working is the same type temperament you'd want for a pet dog. Balanced with good nerves and health.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> You don't think companion/pet dog is not real work ?
> 
> Here is what Cliff said: _"A German Shepherd that is truly bred for working(and I didn't say sport), is going to have to have good health, good strucure, and good temperament. It will be a balanced dog, it will not have the extremes of the winning conformation dogs, or the extremes of top sport dogs, or only one color predominatly." - cliffson1_
> 
> The dog that is bred for working is the same type temperament you'd want for a pet dog. Balanced with good nerves and health.


I disagree, yes, that’s what I am saying. And no, I don’t think that qualifies as “work”. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> _"then you will see the breed improve in all phases and you will also see our beloved breed become dominant again in working vocations instead of couches."_ - @cliffson1



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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> And the last quote, I disagree with. If I was a breeder, I’d def breed what I liked. There’s great variation in shepherds. I know from just the 2 I own.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IMO, the German Shepherd standard is like a bell curve. With the center of the curve being the ultimate balance and ideal. The variation lies on either side of that center. But the variation must also remain inside that curve or standard.

_"Knowledgable breeders have integrity to the standard of the breed as written and strive to produce it without omiting parts that they may or may not like." - cliffson1_


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> IMO, the German Shepherd standard is like a bell curve. With the center of the curve being the ultimate balance and ideal. The variation lies on either side of that center. But the variation must also remain inside that curve or standard.
> 
> _"Knowledgable breeders have integrity to the standard of the breed as written and strive to produce it without omiting parts that they may or may not like." - cliffson1_


I like the curve analogy and the breed standard, but let’s say the curve is indicative of drive I want to fall closer towards the high drive spectrum than the low drive. With that analogy, there is a spectrum within the breed standard, which is what I was alluding to in the first place. 

I think “balance” is a word that needs to be picked apart much like Ivan did to Larry krohn in their interview. It means something a little different to everyone in my opinion. 


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I like the curve analogy and the breed standard, but let’s say the curve is indicative of drive I want to fall closer towards the high drive spectrum than the low drive. With that analogy, there is a spectrum within the breed standard, which is what I was alluding to in the first place.
> 
> I think “balance” is a word that needs to be picked apart much like Ivan did to Larry krohn in their interview. It means something a little different to everyone in my opinion.
> 
> ...


You can have high drive and balance. High prey, high defense, high hunt, biddable, solid nerves, medium thresholds, etc.

Just remember though, German Shepherd aren't supposed to be Malinois.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I don’t think the traits that make for a great working dog necessarily make a great pet. While I think a great working dog can make a great pet in the right hands, what I see as a great working dog is less than ideal as a pet.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I disagree, yes, that’s what I am saying. And no, I don’t think that qualifies as “work”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You don't think a dog that is a companion/partner/pet, that tracks big game, protects truck, protects home and property, and protects their persons is not real work?

What about the family dog who has to put up with all kinds of crap, who I would argue needs even better nerves, and yet still protects the family for real. That isn't work ?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think the traits that make for a great working dog necessarily make a great pet. While I think a great working dog can make a great pet in the right hands, what I see as a great working dog is less than ideal as a pet.


That's why most people shouldn't own, and can't handle, a real German Shepherd.

And great working dog and pet both need good nerves, health, temperament and balance.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> You don't think a dog that is a companion/partner/pet, that tracks big game, protects truck, protects home and property, and protects their persons is not real work?
> 
> What about the family dog who has to put up with all kinds of crap, who I would argue needs even better nerves, and yet still protects the family for real. That isn't work ?


I think you’re assigning jobs to a pet dog. A dog that protects a person is a ppd etc etc. I think those are jobs. 


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I think you’re assigning jobs to a pet dog. A dog that protects a person is a ppd etc etc. I think those are jobs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Those are examples of specific working jobs.

If you truly want a good companion/pet in a GSD, then you looking for the same qualities as a true German Shepherd working dog. There are different flavors in that definition such as thresholds.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I like this conversation. 
I do think we tend to get stuck on the idea of a “pet” dog being a dog that the owner doesn’t train and who lounges on the couch all day. 

I expect my dog to be my family pet and lounge when needed. I expect him to work with my son to overcome obstacles in the schoolroom. And I expect him to do sport with me in our pursuits towards a BH and hopefully beyond. 
Nothing wrong with being all three. I think a balanced GSD can be a pet, working dog and sport dog.

As far as American breeders breeding for top competitors goes, I probably don’t know enough to comment except to say I think breeders should match to fill gaps in their female/program. Could be two top competitors together. Could be a sharp, excellent competitor to high threshold stability that can appear flat on the field. I leave that to the experts.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> I like this conversation.
> I do think we tend to get stuck on the idea of a “pet” dog being a dog that the owner doesn’t train and who lounges on the couch all day.
> 
> I expect my dog to be my family pet and lounge when needed. I expect him to work with my son to overcome obstacles in the schoolroom. And I expect him to do sport with me in our pursuits towards a BH and hopefully beyond.
> ...


In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with a dog doing multiple things but I wouldn’t label your dog a pet. Sounds like a service dog above all to me. At least that’s what I would label the top priority if he/she was mine. 

To me, a pet may have some basic obedience, chases the ball, goes on some walks. Hangs with the family. Eats, poops, roams, etc etc. 


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with a dog doing multiple things but I wouldn’t label your dog a pet. Sounds like a service dog above all to me. At least that’s what I would label the top priority if he/she was mine.
> 
> To me, a pet may have some basic obedience, chases the ball, goes on some walks. Hangs with the family. Eats, poops, roams, etc etc.
> 
> ...


True. I do label him as a service dog 😁


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> To me, a pet may have some basic obedience, chases the ball, goes on some walks. Hangs with the family. Eats, poops, roams, etc etc.


And if you choose a guardian breed to be your pet, wouldn't you expect it to have natural protection and guarding instincts so that it could protect the family, home, etc. ?

Wouldn't you want confidence and solid nerves so that it's not pissing him/her self in the corner when it's lighting and thunder out, let alone a burglar smashing the windows out with a sledge hammer at 2 am ?

Or, why even bother choosing a guardian breed for pet/companion ?

People who seriously choose German Shepherd as a family pet require even more balance, versatility and solid temperament than most dogs utilized for specific working tasks.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> And if you choose a guardian breed to be your pet, wouldn't you expect it to have natural protection and guarding instincts so that it could protect the family, home, etc. ?
> 
> Wouldn't you want confidence and solid nerves so that it's not pissing him/her,self in the corner when it's lighting and thunder out, let alone a burglar smashing the windows out with a sledge hammer at 2 am ?
> 
> ...


Yes, but that does not make it “work” the dog is simply doing what it’s genetically programmed to do at that point. My mixed breed barks at the doorbell. Is that him working? And is the gsd not technically a herding breed? They aren’t a “guardian breed” as far as I know. 


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think the traits that make for a great working dog necessarily make a great pet. While I think a great working dog can make a great pet in the right hands, what I see as a great working dog is less than ideal as a pet.


I completely disagree on this. It can be done with the right genetics combined with correct training. I’ve seen very happy obedient pets as well as out of control working dogs competing. They do great on the field but away from that they have zero clue on how to behave. 
Finding the right dog is the key, unfortunately it’s hard to find one that is balanced enough to compete at a high level and be a great well rounded happy pet. They are out there and I do know of one for sure.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I completely disagree on this. It can be done with the right genetics combined with correct training. I’ve seen very happy obedient pets as well as out of control working dogs competing. They do great on the field but away from that they have zero clue on how to behave.
> Finding the right dog is the key, unfortunately it’s hard to find one that is balanced enough to compete at a high level and be a great well rounded happy pet. They are out there and I do know of one for sure.


I agree. I think some of this is luck of the draw though. Some training. Some genetics. Also to some being a pet is more important. To others being a pet is of zero importance. I mean let’s say for example (I don’t know, nor does it matter) ozzy is this dog. I bet not all of his litter mates are. And I don’t think you or the breeder could tell this at 8 weeks. That’s why I say luck of the draw. 

also important IMO here is to realize that some dogs are managed in the house for example. It doesn’t necessarily make them good pets. But they’re managed. 


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I completely disagree on this. It can be done with the right genetics combined with correct training. I’ve seen very happy obedient pets as well as out of control working dogs competing. They do great on the field but away from that they have zero clue on how to behave.
> Finding the right dog is the key, unfortunately it’s hard to find one that is balanced enough to compete at a high level and be a great well rounded happy pet. They are out there and I do know of one for sure.


My idea of the ideal pet is minimal training and skill required. A dog that’s easy to train and also easy to satisfy. I think I’d a lab when I think of the ideal pet. I think of a dog you could recommend to anyone. I couldn’t do that with the ideal working dog.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

It could be luck of the draw but pedigree is what I went with when choosing his breeder. 
the breeder had two to choose from and we went to see the pups at 6 weeks old andbased on what I saw I chose Ozzys brother but going back at 8 weeks I changed my mind to Ozzy because was showing way calmer grips on toy standing g his ground, better nerves and his brother was thrashing and shaking the toy and taking off with it. 
Fast forward I know his genetics play a big role as well as correct upbringing and training from the day I brought him home. We did dabble in IGP here and there, no qualified helper for me anyway so we did AKC and docking diving. Started IGP consistently a little over a year ago as well as tracking. I did not get him for IGP and now look lol. So having the whole package put together correctly on top on genetics is why Ozzy is a pet first and a working dog second.
Sorry to ramble but wanted to explain a very well rounded dog that works and lives as a pet is out there.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Bearshandler said:


> My idea of the ideal pet is minimal training and skill required. A dog that’s easy to train and also easy to satisfy. I think I’d a lab when I think of the ideal pet. I think of a dog you could recommend to anyone. I couldn’t do that with the ideal working dog.


That’s a fair definition


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> Yes, but that does not make it “work” the dog is simply doing what it’s genetically programmed to do at that point. My mixed breed barks at the doorbell. Is that him working? And is the gsd not technically a herding breed? They aren’t a “guardian breed” as far as I know.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So you're saying "yes" you want the natural protection and where do you think that is going to come from?

The rumor I'm hearing is that most GS dogs won't protect for real without training. And yet the standard calls for it.

Perhaps, I misused the term "guarding breed". However, if you look at the standard the GS is supposed to be a natural guardian.

Whether you call your dog barking at the doorbell work or not is up to you - semantics. The point is that if you want a good GSD pet you want to have a dog that meets the same standard for a GS working dog:


Character  - FCI - SV

The German Shepherd must be self assured, balanced with strong nerves and absolutely impartial behaviour, whilst maintaining a good nature - until pushed to the limit. The dog must be vibrant and easygoing. Furthermore the dog must be courageous, have a strong fighting instinct and possess firm nerves. These are essential requirements since the dog is to be used as companion, guardian, protector and a working sheepdog. Head

Character  - USCA

The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I completely disagree on this. It can be done with the right genetics combined with correct training. I’ve seen very happy obedient pets as well as out of control working dogs competing. They do great on the field but away from that they have zero clue on how to behave.
> Finding the right dog is the key, unfortunately it’s hard to find one that is balanced enough to compete at a high level and be a great well rounded happy pet. They are out there and I do know of one for sure.


Nice dog and nice pedigree.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I agree. I think some of this is luck of the draw though.


Do you think it was also luck that Carmen owned a "vom haus Fleming" dog?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Jen84 said:


> Do you think it was also luck that Carmen owned a "vom haus Fleming" dog?


Who’s Carmen?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> Do you think it was also luck that Carmen owned a "vom haus Fleming" dog?


I think it’s completely irrelevant. most litters yield a variety of dogs suitable for different things. I also still disagree with your point. You’re only looking at qualities like nerve. You want your pet to have high prey and active aggression? Can still fit on your bell curve. Just on the opposite end. We can agree to disagree


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> I think it’s completely irrelevant. most litters yield a variety of dogs suitable for different things. I also still disagree with your point. You’re only looking at qualities like nerve. You want your pet to have high prey and active aggression? Can still fit on your bell curve. Just on the opposite end. We can agree to disagree
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which brings up another point that conflicts with your viewpoint. Why do reputable breeders decide which dogs go to “working” homes and which go to “pet” homes if you want the same traits? Oh..and from the same litter? 


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Who’s Carmen?











introducing Marta -- new girl at carmspack


when I train I don't train for points, I train to observe and understand the genetic potentials of my dogs . so last month at full moon with a slight dusting of snow enhancing visibility I was able to be a see one of my "new" youngsters engaging in undirected activity. how it happened ...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

To top off your viewpoint, you site
2 organizations that advocate titling dogs and then use a breeder who does not as your example. Contradictory. I do not wish to open that door as it’s already been discussed at length and tempers get heated behind it. Just showing how contradictory you’re being in your statements. 


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Jen84 said:


> You can have high drive and balance. High prey, high defense, high hunt, biddable, solid nerves, medium thresholds, etc.
> 
> Just remember though, German Shepherd aren't supposed to be Malinois.


I'd say a Mal is like a GSD crossed with a Border Collie and then force fed 6 cups of espresso ....


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think the traits that make for a great working dog necessarily make a great pet. While I think a great working dog can make a great pet in the right hands, what I see as a great working dog is less than ideal as a pet.


This.

Exactly why a GSD is not a good pet for many people.

_It's not an absolute statement obviously there are many exceptions which is why I said "many" people...._


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I think it’s completely irrelevant. most litters yield a variety of dogs suitable for different things. I also still disagree with your point. You’re only looking at qualities like nerve. You want your pet to have high prey and active aggression? Can still fit on your bell curve. Just on the opposite end. We can agree to disagree
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a dog with high prey and very good to high active aggression including a healthy dose of social aggression 

My dog is borderline on the bell curve IMO.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> I have a dog with high prey and very good to high active aggression including a healthy dose of social aggression
> 
> My dog is borderline on the bell curve IMO.


And you think that makes a good pet? If you do, idk if you know this but you’re in the minority. Nothing wrong with liking what you like. Just saying that most pet owners absolutely do not want that


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> To top off your viewpoint, you site
> 2 organizations that advocate titling dogs and then use a breeder who does not as your example. Contradictory. I do not wish to open that door as it’s already been discussed at length and tempers get heated behind it. Just showing how contradictory you’re being in your statements.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is nothing contradictory in what I'm saying. I could have cited AKC. Why don't you tell me what the breed standard is if you don't like my citation?

You don't think German Shepherd is supposed to be naturally protective and a natural guarder?

Titling dogs and breeding to a standard are two different things. You can breed to a standard without titling a dog if you know what you're doing.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

But you didn’t....


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> But you didn’t....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Says the person that plagiarized their opening quote for this thread lol.

Just to humor you:

AKC

_"Temperament: The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose."_


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Jen84 said:


> Nice dog and nice pedigree.


Thank you.


Nscullin said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Nscullin said:


> And you think that makes a good pet? If you do, idk if you know this but you’re in the minority. Nothing wrong with liking what you like. Just saying that most pet owners absolutely do not want that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Then they need to get a diff breed. My boy is first my companion and pet, yes pet and he’s a phenomenal working dog. He has the perfect on and off switch I’ve ever seen in a GSD. Bad breeders are taking that out of the standard because they don’t give a crap how to preserve the breed just care about the money. 

my boys sire and dam are not titled I could careless but his pedigree speaks volume and that’s why I bought him on top of what I saw when he was 7 weeks old. There are many titled dogs that should never be bred yet they are.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

It’s quoted... you mean bc I didn’t put the persons online username? Lol. Continue on. This discussion is over. It’s obvious your conflicting and irrelevant information carries no weight, Which would be the reason you’re trying to turn personal. Lol. Carry on... Thanks for making it easy. Cant wait to see successful pet homes with high prey, socially aggressive dogs. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> Then they need to get a diff breed. My boy is first my companion and pet, yes pet and he’s a phenomenal working dog. He has the perfect on and off switch I’ve ever seen in a GSD. Bad breeders are taking that out of the standard because they don’t give a crap how to preserve the breed just care about the money.
> ...


Your dog is socially aggressive? A person who doesn’t want a socially aggressive dog should get a different breed..? Hmmm interesting. 


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> It’s quoted... you mean bc I didn’t put the persons online username? Lol. Continue on. This discussion is over. It’s obvious your conflicting and irrelevant information carries no weight, Which would be the reason you’re trying to turn personal. Lol. Carry on... Thanks for making it easy. Cant wait to see successful pet homes with high prey, socially aggressive dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


OMG.

I'll admit I'm a nobody, but I cited @cliffson1.

You're saying his information carries no weight. LOL

No wonder Cliff gave up here lmao.

Turning it personal? lol. You're nitpicking that I didn't cite AKC and yet you plagiarized your opening quote lol.

SMH


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> OMG.
> 
> All admit I'm a nobody, but I cited @cliffson1.
> 
> ...


No I’m saying yours does. I support the quote I posted. Not the way you twisted it. 


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Nscullin said:


> Your dog is socially aggressive? A person who doesn’t want a socially aggressive dog should get a different breed..? Hmmm interesting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No he is not socially aggressive but if needed he will protect hence a balanced GSD that is a pet and a working dog. A GSD with excellent nerves knows the difference between non threatening and threatening situations. Being a balanced GSD he will come up to you smell you wag his tail and walk away he is not a get in my face hug me kinda dog with strangers. Breed standard.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> No he is not socially aggressive but if needed he will protect hence a balanced GSD that is a pet and a working dog. A GSD with excellent nerves knows the difference between non threatening and threatening situations. Being a balanced GSD he will come up to you smell you wag his tail and walk away he is not a get in my face hug me kinda dog with strangers. Breed standard.


So socially aggressive is not breed standard then, right? An inappropriate socially aggressive dog prob does not have “excellent nerves,” right? So those who don’t want a socially aggressive dog don’t need to get another breed then, right? So maybe your response wasn’t quite accurate? Breed standard, right? 


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Nscullin said:


> So socially aggressive is not breed standard then, right? An inappropriate socially aggressive dog prob does not have “excellent nerves,” right? So those who don’t want a socially aggressive dog don’t need to get another breed then, right? So maybe your response wasn’t quite accurate? Breed standard, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You like to twist things up so I’m done.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Jen84 said:


> introducing Marta -- new girl at carmspack
> 
> 
> when I train I don't train for points, I train to observe and understand the genetic potentials of my dogs . so last month at full moon with a slight dusting of snow enhancing visibility I was able to be a see one of my "new" youngsters engaging in undirected activity. how it happened ...
> ...


I miss the days when Cliff, Carmen and others posted frequently. I'm still surprised when members don't know who they are or appreciate their knowledge of this breed.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I miss those days too. Real respectful discussions, exchange of own views, wealth of knowledge freely and willingly shared, sound advice given instead of dropping names or sending to websites and showing off their own dog. 

On the subject, I do not consider sport dogs to be working dogs. Both are working lines but it’s like specialization. There are not enough accessible training venues for doing sports that shepherds excel in, and under accessible I mean distance and cost and also lack of time for an average working American. I looked into herding and it’s 2 hr drive one way without traffic and $100 per 1 lesson. IPO - 2 times a week training and 2 hr one way drive to a good club. I can not commit to such time and cost investment and I wonder if very many are able to. 

For the very same reasons stated above I do want a working line that can be a working dog under other circumstances as my pet but not a sport dog who is selectively bred to enhance certain traits and drives that bring winning points. A working GSD is a utility dog, he can do everything what he’s asked to do, anywhere, anytime, sports included, is environmentally sound, clearheaded, forgiving in training, no extremes, off switch is a given, intimidating and powerful to outsiders. An ideal pet, really. No super handler skills required. 

A GSD bred to be a pet is an entirely different story but it’s out of the scope of this discussion I think.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I’m starting to see why the good ones with wealth and knowledge leave and the bully’s and people who have nothing to contribute but start trouble stay here. Hmmmmm 

I’ve been a member here for over 12 yrs and it’s not the same as it use to be. Might be best to move on and leave the negativity behind.
I think I’ll just take a long break.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It was plenty of negativity before but people were tougher and could handle it I guess, and put bullies into their place in a very elegant civilized way... They were not intimidated that’s why they are still quoted here now 

People move on for various of reasons, one of them is social media that allows to maintain a very own cheery fan club. Other reasons are age, health, change of priorities, etc.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

On this board, schutzhund is very controversial topic. Somehow every conversation about it turns sour. Most of the people here hate the sport and hate the dogs that participate in it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jen84 said:


> No wonder Cliff gave up here lmao.


Cliff, like many others, left the board when they changed the formatting and it became hard for them to navigate it. He told me that directly. Just wanted to clear that up since it's been repeatedly implied (not just on this thread) that he left due to personal conflict. It's sad that he can't be reached thru PM on here anymore but he is on Facebook and has always been willing to answer questions whenever asked. I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask people new to the sport to know who Cliff is. He's not a "sport" person so even if you are active on the east coast you may not know who he is unless you've seen him post on other message boards.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

GSD07 said:


> It was plenty of negativity before but people were tougher and could handle it I guess, and put bullies into their place in a very elegant civilized way... They were not intimidated that’s why they are still quoted here now
> 
> People move on for various of reasons, one of them is social media that allows to maintain a very own cheery fan club. Other reasons are age, health, change of priorities, etc.





Bearshandler said:


> On this board, schutzhund is very controversial topic. Somehow every conversation about it turns sour. Most of the people here hate the sport and hate the dogs that participate in it.


And that’s their prerogative and mine is I do not like AKC I do not like those stupid trick titles I do not like people who want a GSD on the outside but a lab on the inside or people who zero clue how raise and train a dog let alone a GSD. 
people here coddle way too much for example I want to breed my 6 mo old dog and here oh please don’t it find a mentor etc. it’s way too politically correct here. So yes my last post I have a dog to take on a hike dock dive and go bite stuff.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

SchH ppl often have an elitist attitude and are rarely welcoming to bright eyed new GSD owners lol Well, sometimes even hostile. I’m fine with that meaning I don’t care.

I like bite sports, I like AKC sports, I like SAR and I like very much the LE dogs and an thankful for their service. I absolutely prefer AKC tracking to SchH tracking, hands down but I appreciate and admire the dedication and skill of SchH dogs and their owners and their achievements. SchH dogs are also beautiful and well conditioned, how can anyone hate them? 

Breeders of 6 moths old pups appear here and disappear after 2 posts, not worth stressing about them.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

_"People should not need a PH'D to buy a German Shepherd....this has come with the specialization and arrogance of breeders that want to change it into what they like or can manage.
The breed is supposed to be a strong hearty, fearless, noble guardian of people and livestock. Read the standard, dictionary, or encyclopedia....this is simple. A Pet German Shepherd to me is a dog bred to be a pet instead of to work....has nothing to do with titles in 3 generations, American, German, or Canadian origin, import or export, trained or untrained. A German Shepherd that meets basic requirements is a very easy dog to train...and will withstand stress in work because it was made to do that. A German Shepherd that is a Pet will not be able to work because it is lacking in vital parts of the standard. Pet has nothing to do with "living in a home"....shoot, all my dogs pretty much go to homes BUT they can work if that's what their destiny turms out to be...just as its supposed to be. Arrogance and Ego always become important in show/sport breeding, and the founding father recognized this and strongly cautioned against breeding for either, and Pets......I really don't think that's what what was in mind when it was said "take my dog and>>>>>>>!
Just an open opinion._" - @cliffson1


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Here is a great post about imbalance and what you may start seeing:

_"My last post on Anrebri dogs.....in general they are dogs with better than average structure, moderate drives, and sound nerve. They do not have the type drive( them alone) to be fashionable to top sport people. They do not have the type of nerve to load up on aggression in the pedigree and not get sharpness that leaks, they are not type of dogs needed for heavy ecollar use as is the case in many venues for precision or outing. They are good solid dogs very similar to dogs of years past, BUT when the pedigree is loaded with dogs with excessive prey for sport, or excessive aggression for PP or LE, or with excessive hardness for egos....then often an imbalance occurs in some pups that reflects sharpness, leaking, high suspicion which are often interpreted as nerves.
One last thing, you may be thinking how such a high percent of pups seen out of Frankie son by me didn't have those traits you mentioned( shyness,nervy, a mess) ....well four of the females bred to him were selected by me as adults TO BE bred to him. The other female was my own personal female. These females had compensatory traits to be bred to him to maintain balance for his strengths and weaknesses. Now maybe I was lucky, and I'm sure some will believe that...haha, but my point is many Frankie breedings were made by people throwing together two dogs with no knowledge of what's in the dog but what they see in front of them....and that can be a recipe for disaster sometimes. I hope this makes sense?_. " - @cliffson1


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> SchH ppl often have an elitist attitude and are rarely welcoming to bright eyed new GSD owners lol Well, sometimes even hostile. I’m fine with that meaning I don’t care.


That’s an interesting take. What is it based on? I can tell you that attitude you will find every where in life. Back when I was still pretty new to the military someone told me the only reason they let me in was because I was black. I’ll leave that at that but elitist attitudes and hostility can be found anywhere. As for my real world experience with schutzhund people across 5 clubs, I’ve seen an elitist attitude one time. It was a working line person talking about a show line dog.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I’ve found the 3 schutzhund clubs I visited and the 1 I’m involved in to be very welcoming places. Many people that are very willing to help a newbie understand the breed and their own training techniques. 
There are jerks everywhere.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Well, just a post above “I don’t like AKC, I don’t like stupid trick titles, I take my dog and go bite stuff” . If that’s a friendly welcoming attitude then I stand corrected. 
To answers the question, my ideas are based on my own experiences and observations just like yours on your own. Where did the idea that everyone on this board hates SchH dogs come from?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> Well, just a post above “I don’t like AKC, I don’t like stupid trick titles, I take my dog and go bite stuff” . If that’s a friendly welcoming attitude then I stand corrected.
> To answers the question, my ideas are based on my own experiences and observations just like yours on your own. Where did the idea that everyone on this board hates SchH dogs come from?


Were these real life experiences or just what you see in this board? I didn’t say everyone on this board first off. What I said is based in what people on this board have said.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Where did the idea that everyone on this board hates SchH dogs come from?


Thats not the way I would state it, but there is a tone that I find interesting from people in regards to the dogs and the structure and routine of Sch. Kind of along the lines of what you mentioned about access, I can't see how its even remotely possible to post some of the comments when they have never been anywhere near the dogs or stepped on a field. The indignation over that lack of access and experience is what I don't get. I'm more then happy to point out what I don't know or have never done.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

I don’t think that everyone hates schutzhund at all. Quite the opposite I also like akc and think there are good trainers there. As to the original quote the person who made that is in a position to see a lot of dogs so he can likely judge that lol. In the video that was posted recently he talked about how he got one of the dogs he competed with He has competed with American breed dogs To me the comment is a generalization


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Real experiences of course. I don’t see any comments against SchH on this board.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats not the way I would state it, but there is a tone that I find interesting from people in regards to the dogs and the structure and routine of Sch. Kind of along the lines of what you mentioned about access, I can't see how its even remotely possible to post some of the comments when they have never been anywhere near the dogs or stepped on a field. The indignation over that lack of access and experience is what I don't get. I'm more then happy to point out what I don't know or have never done.


Well I don’t understand your comment here either, please clarify. I didn’t complain about my lack of access. I expressed my opinion on the possible reasons why American breeders do not breed with a goal of getting a high competition dogs but focus on more utility like dog that can also do sports. Where did you draw your assumptions that I never stepped on the field or never been around dogs? Very interesting indeed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Well I don’t understand your comment here either, please clarify. I didn’t complain about my lack of access. I expressed my opinion on the possible reasons why American breeders do not breed with a goal of getting a high competition dogs but focus on more utility like dog that can also do sports. Where did you draw your assumptions that I never stepped on the field or never been around dogs? Very interesting indeed.


I'm not saying you. You mentioned the lack of access to clubs or venues and I see posts about exactly that followed with how fake Schutzhund is and how the dogs are this and that. This started with a quote from Frank Phillips. How many people posting about weaker dogs actually know anything about his dog Kliff or really any of the competing dogs? 

I wasn't assuming anything about you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> Real experiences of course. I don’t see any comments against SchH on this board.


There's the disconnect. If you haven't seen those threads or posts, what I said would be a little confusing.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

@Steve Strom Oh I misunderstood, I apologize! I think I remember that discussion you mentioned. I agree with you here. 

I actually believe that popularizing the sport would help in changing this general public’s perception. SchH dogs are not fake. They are really some of the best and can prove it. A GSD that is passing me on a walk with his owner, and then turning around and barking at my back as I am moving away is a fake German Shepherd.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

GSD07 said:


> @Steve Strom Oh I misunderstood, I apologize! I think I remember that discussion you mentioned. I agree with you here.
> 
> I actually believe that popularizing the sport would help in changing this general public’s perception. SchH dogs are not fake. They are really some of the best and can prove it. A GSD that is passing me on a walk with his owner, and then turning around and barking at my back as I am moving away is a fake German Shepherd.


Not a fake, a poorly bred or trained GSD. Too often the image people see.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

schH was* invented *for gsd breeding selection. If it weren't for schH, gsd wouldn't be what it is. The breed evolved/emerged/developed from/is a product of schH breeding selection. Ain't nothin' fake about that. 

what I find funny, and I absolutely do mean humorous  is how many people on both sides of that "fake debate" fence kneejerk revert to citing training scenario vids when you show them a foto of a real working dog doing some real work









I guess I could be wrong? that dude could be shooting blanks? but it sure looks real it to me?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

you can't judge a book by it's cover. Is this a "top tier" high level competition dog? I don't know? very well could be? What I can tell, for sure, just from a foto, that's _way too much dog_ for most pet homes.










This one not so much. I feel like we can reasonably deduce from this phenotype the animal came from a breeding that had zero "competitive sport" potential, and a_ very high likelihood _of pet potential. I'm no gsd expert, but it doesn't take a gsd expert to see that while every "sportdog" can work, not every "working dog" can sport. If I was in the market for a housedog, I'd prolly choose this one.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I'm no gsd expert, but it doesn't take a gsd expert to see that while every "sportdog" can work, not every "working dog" can sport.


Do you actually believe what you wrote here ?

I would say it's almost reverse.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

_so much so _that I'm only too happy to agree to disagree


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> _so much so _that I'm only too happy to agree to disagree


Lol. Suit yourself. Here is Herman Willems from Europe and long time breeder/trainer of working police dogs  :

_"have to disagree nans, its not about what the dog is trained to do, it is important for everybody to understand that genetic qualities can not be trained in or trained out

I would say that most dogs suitable for street, can also perform in sport, the other way around, maybe 40 % of dogs capable of being a sportdog, can go to the street, would say that percentage was much higher but is dropping constantly.

I understand that multiple people with IPO 1,2 or 3 dog will disagree, but even beside the everlasting discussion about prey and/or civil there are lots and lots of other issues that disqualifie dogs for LE besides that

about strong sport and LE dogs being capable of living in the family, if you have a well balanced dog I think it will be no problem, even for the stronger dogs, to function in a family, extreme high prey/ball drive dogs will be more difficult in a family I would say" _- duke1965 AKA Herman Willems


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

well I hate to disagree w/ herbie. but I just don't believe either dog above is any big exception to "the rule?" I'm completely confident that sportdog could do anything the working dog could do, but I'm not so sure that working dog could be "competitive" in sport.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> well I hate to disagree w/ herbie. but I just don't believe either dog above is any big exception to "the rule?" I'm completely confident that sportdog could do anything the working dog could do, but I'm not so sure that working dog could be "competitive" in sport.


I agree with Herman that a working dog can pass an IGP title. 

And that a sportdog may or may not have what it takes to do work.

How is the hunt drive in your sport dog?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't think he has the prey required for sport or MIL/LE?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I don't think he has the prey required for sport or MIL/LE?


You were saying that you were "_completely confident that sportdog could do anything the working dog could do_".

I'm asking if this hypothetical sportdog of yours has any usable "hunt drive" - not "prey drive" - although hunt is part of prey?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> How is the hunt drive in your sport dog?


sorry, I thought you meant "my" dog I'm actually feeding here



Jen84 said:


> I agree with Herman that a working dog can pass an IGP title.


here again



berno von der seeweise said:


> I think the proverbial "balanced dog" should cert, but that hardly qualifies for "top competition."














Jen84 said:


> How is the hunt drive in your sport dog?


I see no reason to assume this dog lacks huntdrive?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> sorry, I thought you meant "my" dog I'm actually feeding here
> 
> 
> 
> here again


No problem, I thought you may have thought that as I wasn't very clear.

_"I think the proverbial "balanced dog" should cert, but that hardly qualifies for 'top competition.' _" - berno

I agree with what you say above. I have a problem when you say, "_completely confident that sportdog could do anything the working dog could do_". 

What I'm trying to say is how does IGP test "hunt drive" ?

How does the sport test environmental nerves ?

_"Environmental Stability and Hunt Drive, I would say, is pretty much the major issue in the breed. _
_When dogs win trophies but cant walk into a Gymnasium...thats a problem."_ - baerenfangs Erbe


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I see no reason to assume this dog lacks huntdrive?


Okay, you edited and added the above while I was posting.

_"Hunt drive is a different component of drive - when people say HIGH DRIVE - they are talking about the ball/prey drive in most cases....Hunt drive is HARD HARD HARD to come by! Ask any SAR person! Not all GSDs, even working lines had it....my Pike daughter had insane hunt drive - she stayed for a few months with a friend who had an Eick Berger Hockberg daughter - the Eick daughter had very moderate drives for ball, tug, track and little hunt at all when he compared them after living with them for 4 months." - @wolfstraum _


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I think the agility and tracking phases of the cert are certainly better than nothing in terms of trying to identify potential working candidates; and I agree that wherever cert morphs into sport, risk of specialization may occur

and you better believe I'm_ plenty slippery enough _to throw down that OP for the win 



Nscullin said:


> “The problem is there are not a lot of breeders TRYING to breed* top competition dogs *in this country (referring to US). They try to breed good medium dogs that make good pets and do the work but overseas they ARE trying to breed *top sport dogs*.”







but speaking of hunt drive, I thought this was pretty cool


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think the agility and tracking phases of the cert are certainly better than nothing in terms of trying to identify potential working candidates; and I agree that wherever cert morphs into sport, risk of specialization may occur
> 
> and you better believe I'm_ plenty slippery enough _to throw down that OP for the win


If the sport doesn't test environmental nerves and hunt drive, how can you then say:



Jen84 said:


> "_completely confident that sportdog could do anything the working dog could do_".





berno von der seeweise said:


> I see no reason to assume this dog lacks huntdrive?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Jen84 said:


> introducing Marta -- new girl at carmspack
> 
> 
> when I train I don't train for points, I train to observe and understand the genetic potentials of my dogs . so last month at full moon with a slight dusting of snow enhancing visibility I was able to be a see one of my "new" youngsters engaging in undirected activity. how it happened ...
> ...


Omg incredible dog. I picked her up for Carmen in Idaho and kept her for a couple weeks. At maturity her conformation was incredible, movement that stops you in your tracks. I will try to post some video of her.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Nscullin said:


> To top off your viewpoint, you site
> 2 organizations that advocate titling dogs and then use a breeder who does not as your example. Contradictory. I do not wish to open that door as it’s already been discussed at length and tempers get heated behind it. Just showing how contradictory you’re being in your statements.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Many of Carmen’s dogs go into working homes where titles aren’t given ie. bomb dogs, corrections, police, nose work etc.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Schutzhund is not a police dog test. It doesn’t test all of the things they look for in a police dog. The only thing that does is a police dog certification. An interview I watched of the Los Angeles canine unit trainer proved very interesting. None of their dogs are dual certified. If they have a drug dog, that’s what he does, bomb dog, patrol, etc. The reason they don’t buy schutzhund dogs isn’t because they can’t do the job. I also read an article recently on Thom Payne bs k when he was first starting the San Diego canine unit. You know where he found the dogs? In Germany, doing schutzhund.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> I think “balance” is a word that needs to be picked apart much like Ivan did to Larry krohn in their interview. It means something a little different to everyone in my opinion.


_"Balance -- keeping all the drives and instincts in tact so that they are there in real to call upon , or not. Nothing has to be formed through training , which you can get away with in sport , but I wouldn't want to see it in work.

Work includes everything from guide, to farm application , personal companion and guardian." _- @carmspack


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think the agility and tracking phases of the cert are certainly better than nothing in terms of trying to identify potential working candidates; and I agree that wherever cert morphs into sport, risk of specialization may occur
> 
> and you better believe I'm_ plenty slippery enough _to throw down that OP for the win
> 
> ...


I'm not going to comment on top sport dogs or breeding because I have limited experience in both.

There are things that a trial just can't test. It would take far too long. It would also include detection, aircraft, vehicles, firearms, livestock, urine and feces, bodies of water, feral donkeys etc... It's hard to talk about working dogs vs sport dogs without sounding condescending. There is no way to accurately convey what it takes for a dog to work hard all day in strange environments with absolutely no idea what is going to happen next. There is no venue in which a civilian can participate that simulates the challenges that some working dogs must ensure.

I have respect for anyone that puts a title on a dog. Any title really. Good on you and your dog for putting in the work. I think SCH is a terrific sport. If you know what you are looking at, you can tell a lot about a dog, scores aside. 

I have been to a total of 7 SCH clubs. I have never experienced any negativity. Everyone was supportive, even if it was clear that the handler and/or the dog left something to be desired. If I lived closer to my favorite club, I would attend weekly even though we are not training SCH. 

I do want that rubble pile as a training area. I have something similar but smaller that I use. The field lab in the video shows outstanding hunt drive and environmental confidence.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Nscullin said:


> So socially aggressive is not breed standard then, right? An inappropriate socially aggressive dog prob does not have “excellent nerves,” right? So those who don’t want a socially aggressive dog don’t need to get another breed then, right? So maybe your response wasn’t quite accurate? Breed standard, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Take a deep breath and relax ... you may like the following quote  :

Sorry, Lee, I know you may not like the spotlight but this was a very informative, and imo super, post that others should learn from:

_"In any animal - when you breed for competition - or for structure - you lose the total balance that is ideal.

"Sport" dogs are those who have been selectively bred for the intense ball/toy/prey that makes training with prey object easier....ofttimes this is at the cost of balance in fight and appropriate civil aggression....high point dogs and BSP winners get breedings, whether it is appropriately balancing the female or not - the names sell puppies!!!

A real working dog may not have that insane ball drive. It may be more difficult to get the pretty heeling that is the fashion now....there are many dogs who are bypassed and said to produce poorly because they are not producing that ball drive....

It is no different than breeding for color or show structure...making another division in the breed..

I have two female lines - one female is very "sporty" - intense insane ball drive, the other has super ball drive - but added is the true appropriate civil aggression that is what is needed for dogs doing "real work" - interestingly, this dog also tested very well under Shelly Fritzke for herding instinct...and loves children, even though she is rarely exposed to them. In breeding, I can balance these dogs out - the sporty dog was bred to dogs chosen to bring in more appropriate social aggression - some well known, others you would say "??who???" - same with the 'real' dog....very few people have ever heard of the males I chose for her....but they have been chosen first and foremost to bring balance and stability....

There should be no difference in sport vs real....it is the judges and thus the buyers who drive the market for what gets bred for the most part." - @wolfstraum _


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I think the agility and tracking phases of the cert are certainly better than nothing in terms of trying to identify potential working candidates; and I agree that wherever cert morphs into sport, risk of specialization may occur
> 
> and you better believe I'm_ plenty slippery enough _to throw down that OP for the win
> 
> ...


 A great video for hunt drive tests it shows how drives and environmental soundness is so much very part of the package along with pleasing their owners is a priority -it’s why they get depressed when things are not successful. They do feed off your energy. I would not want a German shepherd without a good hunt drive. Mix some German shepherd herding instinct in there and it is really really fun to watch them figure it all out. Makes for a very cool talented and dog. It would be good if there was a sport that had military, bomb, sar mock trial training situations like a universal studio for dogs at the same time affordable and easily accessible.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Omg incredible dog. I picked her up for Carmen in Idaho and kept her for a couple weeks. At maturity her conformation was incredible, movement that stops you in your tracks. I will try to post some video of her.


This one post demonstrates why I miss Carmen's posts so much.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

well if you ask me, somebody ought to put a whelping box on top of that rubble...






Rionel said:


> Lord v Gleisdreieck.







ls it just me, or did he look little chewy right there?

(I kid because I love )


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

@berno von der seeweise, I just finished watching the whole "canine evaluation" video you posted. Very nice video and thanks for sharing. That field lab is crazy - in a good way.

I just wanted to post some information from Cliff that ties into that video:

_"I had the pleasure of going to a FEMA urban disaster training site this weekend. It was eye opening as to how difficult the genetic requirements are for a dog to be successful in this vocation. They have very little success in GS of today being able to pass the initial certification. Why? Nerve strength!!! and Physical structure!!
I'm talking about working 911 or Haiti type disasters. These dogs are required to walk on all kinds of treacherous footing, big concrete beams, various degrees of height and depth percerption, I mean it blew me away!! Trust me....75% of the sport/show GS will not pass. You need incredible nerve and awesome drive to work while always going on unsure footing. You have to be fearless in regard to distraction. Now I am not talking about Wilderness type SAR, many GS are successful there....but this urban stuff is tough. 
But as I read this article(I was aware of this article long before and others by him), he hits it right on the head. Urban SAR takes the same kinda of nerve base that police/military dogs require, that seeing-eye dogs require. All different uses and some without aggression use, but all require what the breed should have first; and that is tremendous nervebase and physical structure to be fast and agile. And most breeders today don't breed for that FIRST, and are misled by structure that is pleasing but not very functional for the work the dog was made to do. So we have made the success for the show and sport world what we like to see and the dog has followed suit albeit contrary to what real practitoners are needing for the breed to be. So the Urban SAR are finding more success with labs and mals, and the police with Mals, and the seeing eye people with labs and goldens....wake up people lies don't figure and figures don't lie. We have created a pet/show/sport breed out of a working breed is all the gentlemen is trying to say.....and most of the people who protest this, are pet/show/sport people.....makes sense doesn't it._" - @cliffson1


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

well fema and airplanes are a little beyond my area of expertise, but rest assured lab and golden snobs look down their noses @ the pedigrees of those dogs on the rubble. If they even have pedigrees...


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Obviously I'm not a sport guy, but I'm certainly not an "anti-sport" guy. I keep saying "cert cert cert" but that's just`historical context. It wasn't supposed to be a pass fail exercise. The whole system was designed to evaluate and plan matings between individuals who_ theoretically _might strengthen each other's weaknesses.

The first VA1 schH3 appeared in 1904, so just imagine yourself as a trial judge back then, with the breed still in development. One dog is a little oversized and consequently maybe a little slow/less agile, so you'd suggest mating to a lighter quicker dam. Another dog maybe weak in tracking or protection, so you'd advise mating accordingly. Not a perfect system, but certainly far better than nothing.

The term "knpv" get's thrown around fast and loose nowdays, but it seems like most experts agree it's the pinnacle of dogsport, so let's look at the ph3 results: KNPV Meisterschaft 2019 - OBJ Results

I'm certainly no expert but my takeaway is, @ that level they don't worry about kennel clubs or pedigrees. I've already ruined this thread so I may as well go totally off teleprompter and uncensored  (_don't do it berno. Shut up, you!_) 






when you say "top tier gsd" you say sv, because parent org in the breed's home country. Let's don't anybody kid ourselves about that, because you can't have it both ways. You're either pro-establishment, or anti-establishment.

for sure with other ddr breeds, and really with any working breed/line, as long as it get's the job done, nobody cares if one of the dog's grandsires was a gsd, or not









when I was a kid, "top tier" gsd looked like this










and "working lines" still looked like this... come to think of it now, people kept their "bully breeds" safely contained back then, and dogs like this ran loose all over the place. But there was a lot less mischief in those days. Lot less coyote, too 

fact checking myself real quick here, surfing other breed korung vids, they seem to take it *quite a bit *more seriously than sv


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I have to blurt this out real quick before I forget it. I really have no idea what I'm talking about so maybe somebody will explain it to me. Those dogs on the rubble obviously give little if any thought to self preservation, so "defense" never even enters into it. I always say I like a dog that's "just business, not personal" and assume that means "primarily prey driven." That's what it looks like to me in my my whelping box day 28-49. It's basically just toy drive. I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to keep back or not. I'm just saying that's what it looks like to me.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I have to blurt this out real quick before I forget it. I really have no idea what I'm talking about so maybe somebody will explain it to me. Those dogs on the rubble obviously give little if any thought to self preservation, so "defense" never even enters into it. I always say I like a dog that's "just business, not personal" and assume that means "primarily prey driven." That's what it looks like to me in my my whelping box day 28-49. It's basically just toy drive. I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to keep back or not. I'm just saying that's what it looks like to me.


I'm 99% sure that Cliff was talking about German Shepherds in the following quote and not labs, so take that into consideration. Also there are no absolutes but this is a very interesting observation:

_"Martin likes to see high prey drive in dogs....I agree that I like prey, but am not fan of prey without fight drive( which is nothing more than play drive) . But I also like to see high hunt drive, which I have found that often accompanies high defense drive dogs....either way you need balance as others have said. Imo._" - cliff anderson


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

And your "Dullo of Enview" looks very similar to KNPV - "Billy" - BRN 23677


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

FEMA is one but a federally guided SAR organization It is interesting looking this up and reading that 60% of the dogs seem to be labs surprisingly only 20% are Belgian Malinois and 5% are German shepherds in the FEMA urban disaster search and rescue. Labs are often used as perhaps they are a breed not to have aggression, defense drive. The Labrador breed does not seem to be doomed being the most popular and a breed with two different lines. German shepherds are athletic but I personally would not consider them the most athletic of all breeds but among the most, as they are rectangle shaped and a bit heavier bodied. Urban disaster is among the most challenging of all the sar work. It’s is wild to see some of the dogs do what they do.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

You're way over my head. I've never even looked at a lab ped and don't know anything about lab lines. Far be it from me to suggest anyone breed field labs in gsd suits; but if anybody wants to, I have no problem with it. To each his own. As for agility, as far as I'm concerned all any breeder need do is take issue w/ sv and select whatever they like. Granted berno is a mighty slippery character  but as far as legit breeder's go, that's a perfectly legit position to take.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

My point was pretty clear having different lines in a dog will not ruin a breed. Gsds in lab suits have been used to many times it doesn’t even make sense. One should get a lab or befriend one then get to know the Labrador a bit better.

Since SAR dogs were mentioned There is a German Shepherd SARs Association in New Jersey of anyone is wanting to donate or to their own local team.








Home


The Ramapo Rescue Dog Association is a volunteer search and rescue organization that uses air-scenting German Shepherd Dogs to help locate missing individuals in wilderness and disaster situations. Learn More Celebrating 50 Years GET INVOLVED We are always looking for dedicated people



ramaporescuedog.org













Photos: Ramapo Search and Rescue







www.recordonline.com


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

if you say so. My point is simply that I couldn't possibly care less what anyone else chooses to select, or not. In the grand scheme of things imo, so few litters are purposefully bred, I applaud any attempt. Not just gsd. Lab, too. Both breeds are WILDLY popular in n america, but what % have the right stuff? So yeah, for sure, anybody wants to give it a shot, fine by me. I don't see any harm in that at all.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Confidence, motivation, resiliency, structure, experience all add up to a dog that can handle crazy terrain. Here is Valor at 7 months. He fails the first attempt and bails, then rocks it.









Valor picnic tables 11/27/2020







youtube.com


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

we're throwing a lot of stats and info around so I just want to recap/reiterate my position for the sake of terminological exactitude and definitional clarity














KNPV Meisterschaft 2019 - OBJ Results


All KNPV Meisterschaft 2019 - OBJ results at a glance. Overview with the most important event information and links to dogs and dog trainers.



us.working-dog.com





*"fema uses 60% labs, 20% bsd, and 5% gsd"*


if the working gsd breeder status quo is happy with this situation, I'm happy for them and I only hope they keep on keepin' on


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> To each his own.


You may not agree with this but I thought you may like it anyways  :


_" 'To each, his own' is what is destroying breed. "To each, his own" is a reason why Americans cannot breed dogs for 3 generations without declining. To each, his own is a reason why GSD is losing its ground."_ - Hans aka @Prager


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

rather than disagree, to that I'd say take a look at breeders who are gaining ground, glean whatever you can from their processes, and try to do what they do

frankly I believe a lot of it has to do with how litters are reared over here days 28-49, because the peds themselves are in many cases nearly indistinguishable ("usual suspects")

this brings to mind a little personal anecdote. I once complimented an american breeder about how good one of his pups looked training on a bite wedge. The breeder's response was "I didn't train that. He was born that way."

I didn't say anything. I just thought to myself '_apparently a case of dumb luck_'


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)




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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I guess I'm in a weird mood here, but this really cracked me up


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm sure there's "better" labs, and pointy x flopsy crosses aren't exactly rare on this continent, but nose to nose makes for a fun study














puppy prices aside now and purely hypothetically speaking, if I had lord here on the yard, could anybody give me one good reason not to try backcrossing out of the right flopsy? personally I wouldn't choose lab because I don't know anything about them, but looking @ them all nose to nose is interesting none the less.... and as far as that "decline" somebody mentioned, I do know enough to know it ain't flopsy's fault at all...

of course none of this has anything whatsoever to do with sportdogs, so I really will just shut up now


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> frankly I believe a lot of it has to do with how litters are reared over here days 28-49, because the peds themselves are in many cases nearly indistinguishable ("usual suspects")


How are litters raised here versus over in Europe that you think makes such a difference ?

Here is a video that @Bearshandler posted in another thread:






@ 36:40 on timer, in above video, Ivan talks about human identical twin studies and how they are raised in different environments but at the end of the day they are basically still the same.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> How are litters raised here versus over in Europe that you think makes such a difference ?


judicious outcrossing and backcrossing aside, I don't think what it is, I know what it is.

it's imprinting (wean thru eval)

and I have to give credit where credit is due. I've prolly done more inbreeding and linebreeding than anyone alive on the planet today, and there's absolutely* no question *genetics are paramount. But throughout that time my primary emphasis has always been imprinting/conditioning/selecting toy drive/prey drive (_I use terms interchangeably because I don't know the difference?_) from my whelping pen ("best biter").

but this last litter out Winners told me to get them hunting for food, and_ holey buckets! _I mean they changed from dog to wolf right before my eyes the instant they hit that brushpile

now let's be clear, scattering kibble for a litter to recover* does not *an SAR make, nor can one "imprint" an individual's genetics to be better than they were to begin with; but if nothing else the raw neurological stimuli in and of itself was empirical. My deepest regret is not doing it much earlier, and you bet your boots I'll never make that mistake again. Next time out we hunt for food @ wean and I'll report back

seems lots of english speaking gsdfolk staunchly oppose imprinting, but if you ask me, "anti-imprinting" = anti-Science. At any rate, it's apparently more orthodox within english speaking bsd and dsd circles

Lastly a word on the relationship between wean and propensity to bite. Here again the Science is irrefutable but Science aside, if I remember right a bsd breeder reported weaning day 21? That's a little too sharp for me/this site, so I wean appx day 30 (cold turkey). At which point uncle berno becomes "your new dam," because every nanosecond puppy spends looking @ his biological mother is one less nanosecond he spends looking for human leadership.

before anybody bothers flipping out on me for saying so, don't waste your keystrokes, because I don't care. And neither does anyone else who's done it both ways. Don't waste your energy on little old byb muttmaster me. Go tell stony and all the bsd/dsdfolk how wrong they are.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

thanks for asking


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> thanks for asking


Okay. Let me ask you this: 

Lets go along with what you're saying for now, do you have the "numbers" that show how many breeders in North America are imprinting, as you do, versus the number of European breeders imprinting at 28-49 ?

In other words, how do you know that European breeders are implementing your style at a higher rate versus NA breeders ?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> as you do [ ] your style


 let's don't get carried away now. I didn't invent anything. I'm only a copycat.

A cheap imitation. Strictly bushleague.



Jen84 said:


> how do you know that European breeders are imprinting?


performance

but nevermind me, _see;_ bsd, dsd


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

in fact let's don't even call it "imprinting," let's call it day 28-49 "training"

Preschool. Kindergarten. Headstart. Puppy evaluation.

there are no randoms, only variables; and you will get whatever you inbreed


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in fact let's don't even call it "imprinting," let's call it day 28-49 "training"
> 
> Preschool. Kindergarten. Headstart. Puppy evaluation.
> 
> there are no randoms, only variables; and you will get whatever you inbreed


Let's call it training

You get what you inbreed

Which is it?

You make no sense.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

let's call it day 28-49 "training" because the word "imprinting" is apparently quite difficult for most english speaking gsdfolk to self actualize 

so we "train" and evaluate days 28-49, then "linebreed" a few generations on our resulting gets


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Jen84 said:


> how do you know that European breeders are implementing your style?


I've never claimed anyone was "implementing my style"

?


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> let's don't get carried away now. I didn't invent anything. I'm only a copycat.
> 
> A cheap imitation. Strictly bushleague.
> 
> ...


You misquoted me. 

I didn't ask you, "how do you know that European breeders are *imprinting*?"

I asked you:



Jen84 said:


> how do you know that European breeders are *implementing* your style at a higher rate versus NA breeders ?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

It’s complicated. You can’t “imprint” bite but you can build bite. You can’t “imprint” drives but you can observe drives begin to express very early on. A breeder may attempt to place prospects in working homes, but how many of those homes follow through? How many dogs in total earn titles in usa annually? I don’t know the answer to those questions, but I bet the numbers are pretty low.

and I bet the dude who says “americans can’t breed 3 generations without decline” brokers lots of imports. Not because he’s wrong, just because the law of supply and demand










His “3 gen” claim is interesting because 3 gen = 7/8. If you imprint/condition/evaluate/linebreed 3 generations, you will coax remarkable consistency. If you don’t, 3 gens will effectively “reverse engineer” themselves, and what you’ll get is anyone’s guess?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Will you tell us what became of the dozens of puppies produced from your breedings ? Are they all working and doing what? I'm guessing you keep track of the pedigrees,health issues, and accomplishments.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

the only thing I don't like about breeding dogs is selling puppies, but I have no trouble finding working homes for culls that are properly "imprinted" on livestock 









#40 #thunderbandit

I'll trade a* real good *muttpup for a rabbit and proud of it 










so my goal is get that won't require more containment than a milk goat (ie; tame goat that gets milked at least once per day, preferably twice because that = more daily interaction between owner and dog). Get that don't quite fit that profile go to cityfolk looking for "guard dogs."

This last time out I had a professional show up with a 3 ddr studs in the van and I set him up with the biteyest one in the bunch (yellow collar female). Lucky break for me. "We can always find a home for a dog like this" he said. 

now for the punchline. He says "We only use pure ddr. We don't use any west german, czech or slovak, ever."

LOLOL I wanted to say "well ya do now" but I just bit my lip instead


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

of course the definitions of "work" and "pet" are entirely relative

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm strictly "by the book" here, Your Honor


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

So no pedigrees, no health info.,no accomplishments to share. No results at all.Ok.It's really difficult to take your opinions seriously. People get frustrated when they are sincerely trying to discuss something interesting and you either change the subject or get vague. 🤷‍♀️


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm not running a dog farm here, Your Honor. I don't repeat matings for the sake of puppy production. I own one gsd and don't currently plan to get another, so that rules out my becoming a gsd breeder in the forseeable future. The main reason being, neither my ideal nor my site are conducive to either sport or housedog production. I'm also loosely associated with other breeders/breeds, so I already have a lot of irons in the fire.










And really, if I'm being just brutally, savagely honest about it, imo very few consumers these days are even equipped with the resources to provide a dog like this with the kind of lifestyle he was engineered to live. It's certainly none of my business what anyone chooses to keep in their urban/suburban home, but I have no interest in cranking out clones to fill that market niche. So I'll take what I want from his dna, but ultimately my goal is a most radical departure from this phenotype. It's not that I don't appreciate him for what he is. It's just the level of containment/supervision required renders this phenotype prohibitive in my venue.

anyway I'm obviously not here to self promote, hence my anonymity



dogma13 said:


> So no pedigrees, no health info.,no accomplishments to share. No results at all.Ok.It's really difficult to take your opinions seriously. People get frustrated when they are sincerely trying to discuss something interesting and you either change the subject or get vague. 🤷‍♀️


ok, "specifics"

1. sire's ped went out the window when I crossbred
2. no health info yet (TBD)
3. quite satisfied w/ the results so far, but it's still awfully early (6 months)










still wet, first time standing, dynamic duo on duty "caution working goat, do not pet"


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You did it again.  

(Sorry if I derailed your thread @Nscullin )


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> You did it again.
> 
> (Sorry if I derailed your thread @Nscullin )


It's not worth it. A conversation is impossible.


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