# What age for a formal " hier"



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Ok, so I have been working with Cullen every day for at least 10 minutes at a time, and... we are having some issues!!!!!


Tracking - He used to be enthusiastic, he would hit every step, food or not, he only ate half of it, and we FINALLY got him to want the toy at the end.. for the last two weeks.. tracking to him is something he pretends he knows nothing about. he starts a step or two, and then loses interest, or he wants to skip a few steps at a time, gets to the end, and wants nothing to do with the toy.. we have tried:
Not feeding for up to a full day before training
kicking the toy, making happy sounds
Trainer is convinced it's the ants, but we have done some tracking on our own, no bugs at all, same results.

Obedience -

For food, he will sit and platz, he will " free" for the ball on a string or something similar, and is all about the play. He will NOT HEIR. At all. he will trot towards me a little, then turn sideways and sit and look around. If I grab the collar, or try to use the leash between the legs with the trainer behind me helping direct him, he just pulls away and ignores... even when I try to get him close with the help of physical direction, he just turns his body sideways to sit. Sitz and Platz have become a task now also, we can "cap the drive" and then give a command and he stops and stands there and stares at the toy, but it takes repeated commands...

Protection - NO ISSUES at all. The last 4 weeks, he has been EXCELLENT in protection, is now on a sleeve, and the only thing that he DOESNT do like the others is when he " wins" the tug or sleeve, he doesn't prance around with it, he just wants to show me ( kinda like.. when we play fetch, he bring it, but won't give the ball, and then if sitting, will put his head between my feet and drop it?)

Is there something wrong with him? Is this a stage in puppyhood that is common? Or is he lacking what it takes? 

I am also having some concerns with his walking... going to try to get a video, concerned about hips... 

anything people? lol.. he's starting to make me feel like I am wasting my time.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Tracking - He used to be enthusiastic, he would hit every step, food or not, he only ate half of it, and we FINALLY got him to want the toy at the end.. for the last two weeks.. tracking to him is something he pretends he knows nothing about. he starts a step or two, and then loses interest, or he wants to skip a few steps at a time, gets to the end, and wants nothing to do with the toy.. we have tried:
> Not feeding for up to a full day before training
> kicking the toy, making happy sounds
> Trainer is convinced it's the ants, but we have done some tracking on our own, no bugs at all, same results.


How many times do you track per week?
Maybe all he needs is a break. :help:

How old is Cullen again?

Indra is being worked in Schutzhund once a week and thats it. 
Other than that we do Clickertraining on almost a daily basis but I differ the training each day to keep her interested. One day the nosetouch, the other day platz, than the pawtouch, heeling, re-call. 

Just keep it fun for the dog. Don't overdo it. I know it's hard and so exciting but keep in mind that your dog can get tired from too much routine.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Take a break w/ tracking. Breaks are good. We sometimes track three days in a row, then none for about 4 or 5.
You need to make obedience happy exciting time. He is bored from the sounds of it. He is having some brain burps, common for his age. I would just work on your bond and don't push him for a week or two. Take him on the training field and play tug, then bring him off after about 5 minutes. Put him up, and personally, I wouldn't do protection that day, either.

Then go back a step in where you were previously, and begin again. 
This goes for tracking, too. I found that trying to rush the dog just doesn't work, especially for males.
Is he going thru a bout of Pano?


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Mrs K - We track with the group Saturdays, and usually only about 1-2 times a week otherwise... sometimes once, sometimes twice.. hard to find a place to do it around here. 

Jane - A bout of what? I am feelling kinda dumb at the moment. We have training tomorrow, and tonight was such a bummer during our time. We have tried EVERYTHING.. I get out there and act like a complete dummy to get him excited, and the last week or two he is JUST not interested... I thought it was the heat, but the last few days here, it's been in the 70s in the evenings when we "hang out"


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Have you done restrained recalls? It sounds like you need to make the HIER more positive and less "get your butt here now!!" if you know what I mean. Maybe he's giving you calming signals because you seem frustrated? If he won't sit straight then don't do that yet. Get him coming really fast and happy every time. Either toss the toy through your legs or you turn off to the side at the last second (so he's always coming in straight and fast and not altering his course). What have you done to work the sit in front position alone, not paired with the recall? When Nikon was a bitty puppy he didn't like coming in real close so I trained it by holding a bunch of food at my crotch and skipping backwards while basically feeding him. Even now after a BH I still will flip my body around while he's heeling and do several paces with him prancing in front of me with his face on my abdomen. I don't care if he's literally pushing into me during training (which he is).

Edited to add: Even with a dog getting ready to trial I still rarely have the dog doing lots of formal sits and finishes. Most of the time I just want him coming straight and fast and THAT is what I reward. With a puppy you need to make sure you are rewarding the things that are new to him. He sees it as a chain of behaviors so if he comes in fast and straight but you are planning to have him sit, screw the sit and reward the recall. Don't put them together until he can do both of them really well as separate behaviors. Otherwise if he comes in nicely but sits crooked and you don't reward b/c of the crooked sit, you've lost the opportunity to reward the nice recall.

I also agree with Jane. If *you* are really frustrated, don't even get him out. He will pick up on that and it will make things a negative experience for him. He is really young yet right? There's no rush. At this point there's more potential to do damage than have an advantage doing so much training so young. In the group I train with, if a puppy acts like this then we put it up or just take it out for a few minutes of fast, happy PLAY to make positive associations with the work and the environment.

Maybe you are working him too often and too long? "At least ten minutes" seems like a lot for a pup. My dog is 22 months and often a training session is just going out and doing the three retrieves, which takes maybe 2 minutes total. If I'm satisfied, then we reward play and that's it. Tonight we did maybe 3 minutes of some heeling I've been working on and I liked what I saw so that was it. He had a lot more energy to burn so after that I had him run blinds with me throwing the toy for fetch as his reward for doing the blind search. That was more exercise than training since he already knows the blind search and follows my directions (I command it from weird angles or in random orders).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Panosteitis
very common in GSD's it is a type of growing pains affecting the long bones.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Jane.. i looked PANO up... guess he's gonna have to make an appt at the vet.. if they were to diagnose it, should he automatically be fixed? different opinions on different sites.. 

Lies... our trainer is saying the same thing ... just put him up... and then next time, it;s just play and starting over again. The heir is usually accompanied by a favorite toy or food at waist level, but unless it's jumping on me to get the toy... he's just not into it.. Tried the skipping backwards, and he waits for me to stop, i get high pitched, excited, and nothing works.. when I stop, he will look at me a minute, and no matter what I say, he will saunter over and attempt to get whatever I have.. ALL he wants to do is chase the ball or play tug...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

By skipping backwards I mean with the dog already pushing his nose at your crotch/abdomen. Again, I'd work on getting him comfortable in this position before adding it to the recall. So, I get some yummy food and start feeding my dog at my crotch, and then I skip backwards and just continue feeding him as long as he stays right there and is straight with me. I don't wait to stop, or call him into this position, just feeding him for wanting to be there and stay there as I move. Waist level might be too high, keep the rewards where he's actually eating them or biting at them. You're not looking for eye contact here - that's another behavior - just the position.

I was doing this just last night with Nikon, polishing swinging from front to finish to front to finish. The dog needs to be really comfortable being with you in these positions before adding in formal behaviors and commands.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pano just has to work itself out...nothing the vet can do. I gave vitamin C(start at 500mg up to 2000mg daily over a weeks time/each meal-1000mg a meal- to reduce inflammation when my dogs had it. 
They don't need pain meds for it, IMO so they will self limit their exercise.
He is old enough to get prelims done, which I recommend! Especially if he is doing sportwork.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

LOL.. maybe I can send him to you? LOL. I will try to get someone to video tape it... because he is reluctant and will NOT stand, sit, come, etc right in front of me... and ESPECIALLY not straight.. 

OH and... Jane... everywhere seems to say Pano hits the front legs? All of his issues are in the rear


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> By skipping backwards I mean with the dog already pushing his nose at your crotch/abdomen. Again, I'd work on getting him comfortable in this position before adding it to the recall. So, I get some yummy food and start feeding my dog at my crotch, and then I skip backwards and just continue feeding him as long as he stays right there and is straight with me. I don't wait to stop, or call him into this position, just feeding him for wanting to be there and stay there as I move. Waist level might be too high, keep the rewards where he's actually eating them or biting at them. You're not looking for eye contact her - that's another behavior - just the position.


The lady I am taking lessons from does this with her 5 year old SchH 3 dog still!! Keeps him engaged before they begin their ob routine.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It was great fun until my dog jammed the huge wooden dumbbell into my crotch bone!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Buck Up Lies!! 
I can't imagine...LOL! That or a drop on the bare foot, Ouch!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would go even more back in training with the recall. I do the push in the abdomen, a lot, but didn't until the finish was taught to polish it. To increase speed in the recall I called her showing the toy and at last minute I tossed it between my legs. Idid it for months before adding the sit in front, I still do it from time to time.

The only bad thing is when you start to add the sit in front... it hurts when the concept of stopping in front of you is not even in the dog's brain. MY problem teaching the recall to Diabla was that "I" started to anticipate the pain and move at the last second so... I had to close my eyes when she was running at full speed towards my sensitive pubis :crazy:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How old is Cullen? I don't see that question answered.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ullen-so-huge-6-1-2-months-old-68-pounds.html


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

At 6 months I would be doing a lot of restrained recalls throwing toys or food between your legs. If he is going into avoidance when you ask for the front, forcing the issue is just going to make it worse. Being in front should be a pleasant place.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

For the tracking, it very well could be the ants have bothered him, made tracking unpleasant and now he isn't sure he wants to track. Some dogs HATE the ants. I would also stop trying to force him to play with the ball at the end. If he doesn't want to play with it than find something more enticing. How about a can of sardines that you open when he gets there? Or a little container of really tasty treats? 

Tracking only 1-2 times per week can also cause issues. The dog isn't tracking often enough to really learn and maybe he is becoming discouraged. How long are the tracks? They could be too long. How aged? What are the conditions? All of these things may be making it hard for him.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Karlo will not pick up food if there are ants, but still tracks. I only put it in the beginning leg, scentpad and turns, but he won't eat it if ants are on even one piece.
I put raw meat in an airtight container at the end for his jackpot, he'll eat that. 
I remember you said you had to track Cullen on dirt not grass in his early days and that may play into his aversion to track as well.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

lhczth said:


> Being in front should be a pleasant place.


One of the things I did with Ike when he was a wee little pup (8 weeks) is to get on the ground and let him climb up all over me to get to his food. I used to feed him his whole meal like this. Like Lisa said, being in front, being very very close to you needs to be a very pleasant experience for him.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Everyone has given you some really good ideas.

Tracking- I agree with giving him a break. Argos had a bad run in with ants once and it put him off food on the track for awhile. We were able to get him going with toys, but he was crazy about his toys. He did get back into his food though after some time. 

I also agree with Lisa that there could be more to it. Some dogs track well only once a week, and some dogs need more. Is he bored and unmotivated or is he frustrated? Hard to say without seeing it. Again maybe give it a break, strategize, and then go back to it.

Recall- Few things I do. The restrained recall, but I throw the ball/food through my legs 4/5 times. I want my dog to get used to running through me. This way they come fast for the reward, rather than pairing the reward with a front command.

I also play this game with Tag with food where I throw the food between my legs, he runs to go get it, I turn and back pedal a few steps, call him and throw another piece of food. In this way he is sprinting back and forth to the pieces of food and going through my legs. I can start to narrow my legs, so he's learning to target the center and go through. At the last I might close my legs and stand up as he comes in, which pulls him up into a perfect front sit. 

One other thing is backwards feeding. Walking backwards and food food food as fast and you can give it from alternating hands right on your belt buckle/crotch/belly button etc. And you have to be fast. This isn't a lure where you just have one piece of food and try to bring them along with you, this is a lot of food and a dog that is constantly rewarded for moving into you. I saw this at a Debby Zappia seminar, and she had the food in her mouth (she uses people food as treats like chicken/steak/etc.) and a clicker in her hand. She would click when the dog moved forward head up, and reach up take a piece from her mouth and feed at her waist, alternating hands so the dog wouldn't anticipate and go to one side. But it was FAST. She was pretty much clicking as her hand was on the way back up to her mouth for food. It was pretty effective though. The constant reinforcement really got the dogs moving into their handlers.


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Wow, I got a lot of great feedback. Thanks everyone. Yes, Cullen is 7 months old. It is extremely hard to find a place we can track that I can get more than once a week, but I will try to do it more. Yes we started on dirt, but he was AWESOME, then we started grass and he did GREAT, until the ants on the new field... he has completely lost interest. Can't find plowed dirt anymore, so we have to work on grass ( and OMG, kicking it in is a pain in the arse)

With the obedience... I will try the restrained recall.. and since most of our " us time" is just him and I , I will try the between the legs thing just to get him used to going there first... and we shall see how he does! I hope it works, and I will keep this post updated as much as possible!


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

VaBeachFamily said:


> Ok, so I have been working with Cullen every day for at least 10 minutes at a time, and... we are having some issues!!!!!
> 
> 
> Tracking - He used to be enthusiastic, he would hit every step, food or not, he only ate half of it, and we FINALLY got him to want the toy at the end.. for the last two weeks.. tracking to him is something he pretends he knows nothing about. he starts a step or two, and then loses interest, or he wants to skip a few steps at a time, gets to the end, and wants nothing to do with the toy.. we have tried:
> ...


 
tracking...dont feed him for a day before you track. if and when he picks his head up off the track, pull him off the track, run him in a short circle and return to the track quickly.

OB....call him to you and reward the dog with his head in your crotch. lead him to you. do not pull on his collar. you need to make sure you have him in drive when he is working, if he starts to lose interest/focus, put him up.

protection...when he wins the object, run him in a circle. which would be called a prey circle, the dog doesnt learn this on his own.

no, there is nothing wrong with your dog other than i have not seen him in person or on video so the only thing i can tell you that is wrong is either you as a handler or the trainer. no i am not bashing on you, i am trying to help.


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