# s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall GSD



## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

I appreciate Cliff's posts and reading the discussion that stems from it, but find myself wondering (and not wanting to hijack your post): for those of you that subscribe to the description of the 'old german shepherd dog' as I often hear referred to by Cliff, Anne and others....*Are there any current dogs that you feel fit the criteria?*

I guess I just find myself wondering where we go from here if so much has been lost. Has it truly been lost or just made harder to find?


Please post a dog (or two or three...) that you think fits the description of the old school, overall GSD. Please include name and what you like about the dog/why it is a good representative of the breed. If possible picture(s) and link to pedigree would be appreciated as well. It doesn't have to be a current dog, but I would like to see more 'modern' dogs put up as well because I think we also need to look at where we are going in addition to where we've come from.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

well here's an "oldie" that I like and my gsd I referred to in another post was a son of his,,wonderful dog)

http://leerburg.com/bodo2.htm


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

Here is a current dog I really like, Stuka vom Enkhausen (and his father Stormfront's Brawnson). Stuka seems to have what many dogs from all the lines are now lacking - the fight drive balanced with overall soundness.










Here's some other people's opinions and observations:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/351748.html


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

This is a good question and i was going to go into this from my perspective. Thanks for opening it up. The Czech dogs are the closest subset to the dogs I remember from the past. Notice I said subset. There are definitely dogs in some of the other subsets that remind me of the all purpose dogs of the past, but as a whole the Czech dogs. Of course their are European working lines, and West showlines, and DDR dogs that do, but with these other lines you also will find a lot of extremes that weren't present in older dogs. Remember the extremes, are the result of intensified concentration of specific areas in a subset. The physical strucure in conformation(ie angulation and sidegaits that are extreme), over the top drives you see in some sport lines(especially prey monsters), excessive body build you see in some DDR dogs, etc. I have found that the "current" Czech dogs tend to be good solid working dogs, with good structure, good drives, good nerves, and good courage. I don't think its coincidental that you see so many SAR, Law Enforcement dogs that come from these lines.
Having said I think they most consistently represent the "ole School", my last three dogs that I have procured for my breeding program in past 4 years are as follows, 4 years ago Czech female, one year ago West German workingline, and 3 months ago a DDR female. You see I try to practice what I preach in keeping genetic diversity in my program. Each of these dogs had strengths in their lines I needed or wanted. Could have gotten them from within my original Czech female but I am ever looking to strengthen what I see is lean, and go away from what I feel I have plenty of. The only exception is nerve and courage, ALL of the dogs I seek and use MUST have nerve and courage or they don't fit into my plans. Other aspects I will tamper with to improve or lessen but not those two.


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## darylehret (Mar 19, 2006)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

Being that there's a lot of different examples of fine (and not so fine) czech dogs, could you name a couple that are close to ideal? Tom z Ps, Cordon An Sat, Norbo Ben Ju? Like all other subsets mentioned, certain czech lines are also riddled with health concerns I'd not care to compromise, at least if possible to balance the temperament better from other subsets of the breed.

As you've also done, I bred quite a bit on the Held Ritterberg lines, and while they were great offspring, many really weren't all that ideal for today's sports venues or methods. I attributed much of that to my clubmember's inexperience of working with this type of dog. But nonetheless, if I was going to learn schutzhund, I was going to have to make some conforming choices to fit with the training group I practiced with, so that I had the kind of dog suitable to learn to train how they train theirs.

What I got from Held lines was more serious dogs, good courage, less reactive to non-real threats, but very aware of their surroundings, not immediately hostile but not overly friendly either. Good lines for strong bone, powerful grips, and good hip production, and very biddable to their owners. Those are probably the most attractive points. On the other hand, ball drive wasn't great, modest enthusiasm for the retrieve, eye contact with the handler was minimal, low food drive. All to do with teaching good obedience routines. That's when we decided to introduce something with "sportier" drives into our breeding, beginning with a grandaughter of Grim, which was very helpful.

I don't consider that what offspring I was producing before that time could be simply labeled as unworthy of breeding, albeit without doubt, difficult to perform that well in today's sport. Especially, with a "cookie cutter" style of training mindset that revolves around all-postive technique and higher prey drive.

Because behavior and perception of society has evolved, so too have the working venues, so have the living conditions, the training and handling methods, the breeding goals, and consequentially.... the german shepherd dog breed itself.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

I think the original OP asked for dogs that remind people of the older dogs...well the Held type that you identified both good and bad remind me the past. There have always been health issues with this breed back in the day also. I don't value some of the "new" things that have evolved, (extreme grips, full grips, and extreme prey as examples) as do others today especially in the sport world. I do value hard grips and good fight drive. Most good Czech dogs that i run into remind me a lot of the dogs of the past...Norbo, Tom, Cordon, are all examples of dogs that remind me of the past. Some have some specific areas they are noted for, but that was also the case in past...but in general these type of dogs are fine working dogs that can be trained to do almost any task and that's what is important to me.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

Are there pictures of these dogs available?


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

they all have pics in peddbase Xeph.
More interesting is a rare vid of Tom (lots of different Toms, but this is the one most people are referring to)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1dHLcwH48&feature=player_embedded


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

Thank you, Ocean


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

I have a Tom daughter, he was 11 1/2 when he breed the female to produce her. And I see people who have 3 year old dogs that need "help" to breed because the female is too strong for them...Agh!!! Do you realize the mental and physical strength to be breeding at 11. And the litter had nine pups in it. BTW, my female would be a perfect candidate for a guide dog for the visually impaired. Rock solid nerve, very easy going, babysits my 4 year old grandson in the year.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

BTW, look at that video the way this dog outs so calmly and confidently, nerve, nerve, nerve!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*

I'm sorry but I think my dog is perfect, exactly what I think a German Shepherd should be, I won't post a pic but there are several on here, he is everything I could want. He can go anywhere and do anything I ask and am able to train. His only flaw is being owned by someone with limitations and lack of interest in some things. I would hope more people thought their dog is perfect than constantly looking for the elusive perfect dog.
I hear too many stories now of people getting rid of dogs because they didn't turn out exactly as they wanted, so these dogs are returned to breeders, dumped or rehomed. How about encouraging people to be happy with what they have, encourage to make the most of what you have and don't look to breed. Find out what you enjoy and try to work with what you have.
Lets face it the perfect dog that is the best example will be different to many people and is very subjective, I stand by my choice.


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## valkyriegsd (Apr 20, 2000)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*



> Originally Posted By: trudyI would hope more people thought their dog is perfect than constantly looking for the elusive perfect dog.


I agree with the sentiment, but I think you're missing the point that's trying to be made. When talking about _breeding,_ you need to be able to critically evaluate your dogs' strong and weak points or you end up breeding fault to fault and the overall quality deteriorates.

For example, I love my dog Seren. But I'd never breed her because she has poor movement and is overly sharp. I didn't get rid of her, or love her any less than any of my other dogs, but I am also aware of her faults.

So breeders _should_ be looking for the 'perfect dog' so that we dog owners/lovers can have healthy and temperamentally sound dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*Re: s/o Cliff's post: modern examples of overall G*



> Originally Posted By: valkyriegsd
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: trudyI would hope more people thought their dog is perfect than constantly looking for the elusive perfect dog.
> ...


I agree. There are some really nice dogs - show and working, whatever your fancy - that have not produced their qualities in their progeny. Likewise, sometimes there's a really good producer that isn't ever the top dog.


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