# Aggressive 18 month old



## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

We had Ace since he was 7 weeks old. He has always been friendly with people we had brought over our house. My 9 year old son plays with him all the time. Over the last few weeks we notice his behavior changing. We're used to getting close to him hugging and kissing him without a problem. Over the last few weeks he has started to growl at my wife and son when they would do this. He would never do it to me though. Today when my son was hugging and kissing him he started to growl again and then bit him in his face. It wasn't bad, just a nip! I don't understand what is cause this behavior. I'm worried that if there is a new born baby in the house he will be aggressive towards the baby.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you've noticed a change in your dog over a few weeks. he growls
at your wife and child when they try to hung him. why would you 
allow your wife and child to continue to try to hug him? why?



Sammy79 said:


> We had Ace since he was 7 weeks old. He has always been friendly with people we had brought over our house. My 9 year old son plays with him all the time.
> 
> >>>> Over the last few weeks we notice his behavior changing.<<<<
> 
> ...


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

take him to vet to rule out lymes diease and anything else


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Many dogs don't enjoy this type of contact. Just because he put up with it when he was younger and now he's trying to stop it doesn't mean he's aggressive at all. He's only trying to tell you to please stop. I'm very physical with my puppy too, but I try to remember that some contact is almost like mauling them, so I'm respectful and try not to overdo it. They like their personal space, just as we do.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Its a sign of affection, its something that he is used to us doing. He'll come up to us and expect it. Whether it's when we come home or when we wake up. But on rare occations he is doing this. The question is why is he growling, not why are we showing affection to our spoiled GSD. Are we suppose to pretend he's not there?


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Many dogs don't enjoy this type of contact. Just because he put up with it when he was younger and now he's trying to stop it doesn't mean he's aggressive at all. He's only trying to tell you to please stop. I'm very physical with my puppy too, but I try to remember that some contact is almost like mauling them, so I'm respectful and try not to overdo it. They like their personal space, just as we do.


I notice he can be more aggressive when playing with my 9 year old. I don't know if that's because he dominates him most of the time or what. When I play with him he doesn't act like this. He never growls at me at all, he is more willing to do it to my son. Is this because he looks at me as the alpha male?


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

rooandtree said:


> take him to vet to rule out lymes diease and anything else


How would he get lymes disease? He's indoor 95% of the time. Taking him to the vet will be my next step.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

lymes come from tick bite...dosent take that long to get it..ive had it and so have my dogs..makes you sore..in dogs it can change their behavoir..make them seem aggressive...it only takes a second to go outside to pee and have a tick crawl on their leg...depending on where you live..are you in a high lymes area


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

If he really does like this type of attention and now he's suddenly growling when you do it, then for sure I second what rooandree said: he should be seen by a vet. Maybe something hurts where you're squeezing him?


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

rooandtree said:


> lymes come from tick bite...dosent take that long to get it..ive had it and so have my dogs..makes you sore..in dogs it can change their behavoir..make them seem aggressive...it only takes a second to go outside to pee and have a tick crawl on their leg...depending on where you live..are you in a high lymes area


We are in Southern Mississippi and from what I've just read it's very low here. We also give him frontline plus monthly. We are about to move to your area next month.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> If he really does like this type of attention and now he's suddenly growling when you do it, then for sure I second what rooandree said: he should be seen by a vet. Maybe something hurts where you're squeezing him?


I'll schedule an appointment with the vet next week. Hopefully we'll figure something out soon.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Sammy79 said:


> We are in Southern Mississippi and from what I've just read it's very low here. We also give him frontline plus monthly. *We are about to move to your area next month*.


Here is something else that may be affecting your pup. You are about to move within a month. Moving stress is bad enough, to a different state adds even more. What is the stress level in the house over all? Have you started packing yet? Boxes stacked in the corner? Furniture moved? Any of this would be changes in routine for the pup causing his stress level to increase.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Petting him is fine. Hugging, kissing, is nothing dogs do with each other and many just do not like it.

In order to prevent things from happening again - and especially prevent your son being bitten again - read and understand the website I've linked to.

Family Paws-New parent classes dog and baby

You have two choices. Do something the dog doesn't like, and continue to have him growl and bite (growling is a dog's ONLY communication to say "I don't like this!" - biting occurs when humans fail to heed the warning!) OR change your ways and do things the dog DOES like. Sit with him on the floor, by him, but not hugging/kissing.

Or get rid of him :shrug: If you do that, make sure he doesn't go to a home with kids.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Twyla said:


> Here is something else that may be affecting your pup. You are about to move within a month. Moving stress is bad enough, to a different state adds even more. What is the stress level in the house over all? Have you started packing yet? Boxes stacked in the corner? Furniture moved? Any of this would be changes in routine for the pup causing his stress level to increase.


Stress level is very low in my house. We haven't packed up just yet, that will happen at the end of the month. Nothing has changed in the house since we got him. He has been very happy and spoiled. We take him out all the time, from walking to playing catch.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

At 18 months, your dog may be coming into maturity. Sometimes dog change a bit. It is not normal for a dog to have someone hugging them. Jax will tolerate me doing this but will go shake my cooties off her as soon as she can. To better understand this read "The Other End of the Leash"

The first thing I would do is look for a source of pain. Another person just posted on here that her dog growled at her and her boyfriend when they touched around his neck. They found a large gash on his neck.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're supposed to not hug him untill you figure out
why he's growling when you attempt to hug him.



Sammy79 said:


> Its a sign of affection, its something that he is used to us doing. He'll come up to us and expect it. Whether it's when we come home or when we wake up. But on rare occations he is doing this. The question is why is he growling, not why are we showing affection to our spoiled GSD.
> 
> >>> Are we suppose to pretend he's not there?<<<


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> At 18 months, your dog may be coming into maturity. Sometimes dog change a bit. It is not normal for a dog to have someone hugging them. Jax will tolerate me doing this but will go shake my cooties off her as soon as she can. To better understand this read "The Other End of the Leash"
> 
> The first thing I would do is look for a source of pain. Another person just posted on here that her dog growled at her and her boyfriend when they touched around his neck. They found a large gash on his neck.


Looks like a good read, I will check it out. I thought about him maybe being in pain. I just don't understand why he has never attempted to growl at me, sometimes the wife and most the kid.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> you're supposed to not hug him untill you figure out
> why he's growling when you attempt to hug him.


That's the purpose of this thread in case you're confused.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If not neutered, btw, now's the time to do so, before the big move, too. It may not help, but it might, too.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> If not neutered, btw, now's the time to do so, before the big move, too. It may not help, but it might, too.


I wanted to get him neutered, but it was scaring reading some of the stuff people were saying about it on this forum.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This forum didn't hang the moon


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your child was bit in the face and that's after 2 weeks
of your dog growling at your wife and child when they
attempt to hug him. you're right, i'm confused about why
would you allow your wife and child to continue to hug
him if he's growling at them. your snarky reply doesn't make 
any sense. allowing your child to be bit shows who's confused.



doggiedad said:


> you're supposed to not hug him untill you figure out
> why he's growling when you attempt to hug him.





Sammy79 said:


> That's the purpose of this thread in case you're confused.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> your child was bit in the face and that's after 2 weeks
> of your dog growling at your wife and child when they
> attempt to hug him. you're right, i'm confused about why
> would you allow your wife and child to continue to hug
> ...


Listen genius, obvious you're not in the house to understand what's going on with your smart replies. Instead of making smart mouth comments, how bout making logic comments on what could be wrong with my dog. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all. My dog isn't growling everyday for two weeks. This happens 10% of the time. We had stopped hugging him after the incident. The purpose of this thread is to help find out what could be wrong with my dog, not post comments attacking in case you're still confused which obviously you are. You're a bitter person and it shows in your replies. I feel bad for your dog. No need to reply back, you've been useless in this thread when others have been extremely helpful.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> This forum didn't hang the moon


lol this is true!


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> The first thing I would do is look for a source of pain. Another person just posted on here that her dog growled at her and her boyfriend when they touched around his neck. They found a large gash on his neck.


That's one thing I thought was pain, maybe HD? From time to time he does hop around when playing outside. We do give me daily meds of it. He was x-ray a years ago, but was told it's not bad right now. When it did happen, though rarely it would be during hugging, but he would never do it to me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's really nothing "wrong" other than your dog is being a dog. They often tolerate hugs/kisses from us, but the children in the house are seen as mere siblings (not leaders) so they will snap and growl at them. 

Did you read through Family Paws??


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> There's really nothing "wrong" other than your dog is being a dog. They often tolerate hugs/kisses from us, but the children in the house are seen as mere siblings (not leaders) so they will snap and growl at them.
> 
> Did you read through Family Paws??


I will be reading through it today. I've always read they are really good with children, I'm just curious will he act like this if a baby is in the house just being a baby.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well it's up to you. If you let the baby crawl on and kiss the dog, then yes, I'd say it might indeed happen.
Dogs are not furry jungle gyms for a toddler and baby to crawl on. And yes, people let their kids do it. You ever see Craigslist where people are giving away a dog that's "great with kids...the kids crawl on, pick at, poke eyes, pull ears, and the dog is fine"?? They don't teach their kids to pet the dog, not poke/pick/hit, etc. 

Well, sometimes dogs are not fine with that and in fact more often than not they are not fine at all with being mauled by children. 

It's up to you, the parent, to teach your children to respect the dog. He shouldn't bite or nip or growl, but the fact is, he is doing so, and probably will continue to do so. So it's up to you to protect the _dog_ from the kids. 
Or, if you believe dogs need to be crawled on and hugged and kissed, and tolerate that, then rehome him to a family with no small kids.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I have to agree with doggiedad (minus the rudeness) and msvette - there is nothing "wrong" with your dog, Sammy, he is being a dog. Could be in pain, could just be growing up and letting you all know what his comfort zone is. No dog should be _made_ to put up with hugging, kissing or kids crawling all over them if they are not comfortable with it. 

You have to respect your dog for who he is.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Sammy79 said:


> I will be reading through it today. I've always read they are really good with children, I'm just curious will he act like this if a baby is in the house just being a baby.


If the kids aren't taught how to behave around a dog - any dog - it can happen. Read the page that was posted, start immediately with a baby that may come. Back up and begin now with your current child. Teach them the appropriate behavior with dogs.

Yes, GSD are good with kids.... BUT they are still a dog and will only tolerate so much, then they warn, listen to the warning.

I would also now, if you haven't begin NILIF, also another page on the same theme is Mindgames.

If your dog hasn't had training, begin classes. If they have had training, start training at the next level. The entire family should attend and participate in the training.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sammy79 said:


> That's one thing I thought was pain, maybe HD? From time to time he does hop around when playing outside. We do give me daily meds of it. He was x-ray a years ago, but was told it's not bad right now. When it did happen, though rarely it would be during hugging, but he would never do it to me.


a

How about taking him to a chiropractor? When you touch his back, or press lightly by his spine, do his muscles and skin spasm? I doubt mild HD would cause pain to make him react when hugging unless you were laying on him. But back or neck pain might.

How did you train him? Was there any compulsion where you would be "popping" him with a leash correction? That can knock their spine out of place.

If you can't find anything medical, then you have to accept that your dog does not like to be crowded. At that point, I would get a professional trainer that uses positive methods with rewards. The idea being that you want him to know that GREAT things happen when he allows a hug. In this case, I would not give him a correction for growling. That is a warning and you don't want to teach him to not give that warning.

Personally, I would never leave my dog alone with a small child. Do I think she would ever hurt them? No. I"ve seen children fall right on her and she just yelped and looked at me. Do I want to take a chance? No. She's a dog. No matter how smart or gentle, she's still a dog at the end of the day. Sometimes I think we expect our dogs to act and understand human and we forget that they are animals with a completely different way of thinking.

I'm on the fence with the neuter helping aggression thing. I think it's more genetics and environment than hormones but if you were going to get him neutered anyways, then I would do that. My understanding is with males it takes away the hormones and can help. With females, it creates an imbalance that could make it worse.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It's up to you, the parent, to teach your children to respect the dog. He shouldn't bite or nip or growl, but the fact is, he is doing so, and probably will continue to do so. So it's up to you to protect the _dog_ from the kids.
> Or, if you believe dogs need to be crawled on and hugged and kissed, and tolerate that, then rehome him to a family with no small kids.


I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't have a theory that dogs need to be crawled on, hugged and kissed, he demands it 90% of the time. When coming home he will come to you, get in your face and starts kissing you. The same thing happens when we first wake up. He will be in your personal space until you give him back the attention he's giving you. GSD are suppose to be good with kids from everything I've learn and experienced. This is why I started this threat to see what could be wrong.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Twyla said:


> If the kids aren't taught how to behave around a dog - any dog - it can happen. Read the page that was posted, start immediately with a baby that may come. Back up and begin now with your current child. Teach them the appropriate behavior with dogs.
> 
> Yes, GSD are good with kids.... BUT they are still a dog and will only tolerate so much, then they warn, listen to the warning.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information I will look into this today.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> a
> 
> How about taking him to a chiropractor? When you touch his back, or press lightly by his spine, do his muscles and skin spasm? I doubt mild HD would cause pain to make him react when hugging unless you were laying on him. But back or neck pain might.
> 
> ...


I haven't seen any muscle spasm from him when I pet or use the furminator on him. I honestly have never heard of a chiropractor for a dog. We trained him in the house, and when outside I have a special leash so there's no pulling. No popping at all. Since reading this forum I've told my family just to let him have his space if he does it. I understand dogs need their space now just as humans do. Of course not everyone is willing to just leave a baby crawling around near a dog, but there are times you may be in another room or have your head turned is what will be a concern. I wanted to get him neutered, but read it could mess with their growth and may cause certain diseases later down the line.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sammy79 said:


> I but read it could mess with their growth and may cause certain diseases later down the line.


At 18 months, he should be fine to get neutered. The growth issue is for neutering when they are younger and it affects bigger dogs more so then little dogs. I have never personally experienced any of these issues and all of mine are fixed at or before 6 months. The number of diseases of an un-neutered/spayed dog is generally higher then spayed/neutered dog.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

some dogs dont like babies /small children moving around as they are fast and unpredictable..

its very possible your dog while he comes to you for attention is not looking for the hugging kind of attention.. he just wants to be petted and thats it. give a few kisses to you and get some pets but not wanting any hugs... not all dogs are huggy. gsds are good with children to a degree, just like most other breeds, if they are squeezed too much or poked too much they wont want to be around children any more, or if a child falls on them...

as far as neutering, you can do it now and it wont interfere with his growth...

my 2 dogs are stellar with children, one is 10 and one is 2. however, if a child hugs them too hard it hurts... just like any dog they dont growl they just back away.. its up to you to read your dogs body language to keep the dog happy.. if the dog backs away from someone that always hugged them then they dont want to be hugged anymore... its also possible the children accidently hurt the dog without no one watching..

and NEVER leave a baby with a dog of any kind unattended- never..... if you have to go to the bathroom or step out of the room take either the baby or dog with you. leaving a baby unattended with a dog no matter how many minutes is a recipe for disaster- i honestly wish those that did that and had their child killed or maimed were arrested and charged with child endangerment and had charges pressed against them. maybe people would wake up and be more responsible.. the dog is the one who pays and the dead/maimed child for the parents stupidity and ignorance.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Without seeing your dog, obviously this is just a shot in the dark guess here, so please don't take this the wrong way because I only want what's best for you, your dog, and your family:

The cause could also be that your dog is getting too much attention. If you're letting him get all the attention he wants, whenever he wants it, you're not doing him any favors. What really tipped me off was when you stated that he will pester you in the morning until you give in. He should respect your routine, and not be waking you up. Of course he wants to greet you in the morning, as he should, but he should wait for you to make the first move.

Other people have posted very helpful links for you - I don't think you're going to have any problems with this dog if you follow through with everything. He sounds very well loved...yeah, you did say spoiled, lol.


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## Sammy79 (Mar 6, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Without seeing your dog, obviously this is just a shot in the dark guess here, so please don't take this the wrong way because I only want what's best for you, your dog, and your family:
> 
> The cause could also be that your dog is getting too much attention. If you're letting him get all the attention he wants, whenever he wants it, you're not doing him any favors. What really tipped me off was when you stated that he will pester you in the morning until you give in. He should respect your routine, and not be waking you up. Of course he wants to greet you in the morning, as he should, but he should wait for you to make the first move.
> 
> Other people have posted very helpful links for you - I don't think you're going to have any problems with this dog if you follow through with everything. He sounds very well loved...yeah, you did say spoiled, lol.


I guess I would have to agree that he does get quite a bit of attention. We play with him all the time in and outside of the house and give him toys and treats. He is very spoiled! I may need to start cutting back on that a bit. When we are busy and no one plays with him he will go around the house crying the whole time. So yes, I guess he is expecting it and probably even more we are not as active that day. He respects that you are sleeping, but the minute he sees your eyes open he starts getting in your space wanting attention.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sammy79 said:


> I honestly have never heard of a chiropractor for a dog. .... Since reading this forum I've told my family just to let him have his space if he does it. I understand dogs need their space now just as humans do.


Yup!  They can put a dogs back in just like a person!

Every time he growls and you back off, this behavior is reinforced in his mind. I would stop all hugging for now. Take him to the vet to make sure there is nothing that might be causing him pain. And I would get a good trainer to help you get this straightened out to modify that behavior.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs are pack animals, not children. Working dogs need more structure and boundaries than spoiled attention. If not they will try to ascend the ladder of the pack. The only way a dog knows th maintain or climb the pack ladder is through asserting its will. They don't negotiate or are receptive to human reasoning when it comes to position in the pack. This is why some good dogs end up becoming aggressive and biting family members(because their position in pack isn't established and maintained in developmental years by family or owner), and people like me have had really strong dogs for forty years (and I mean police type strong) and have never had an issue with my dogs respecting certain boundaries. This breed is a working breed when correct, excessive spoiling as you have wrote is a recipe for rank issues in a strong working GS.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

first of all i can say whatever i want. i'm repeating what you said about your dog. i don't think you have to be a genious to figure this out.

first: stop hugging the dog.

find a behaviorist.

don't let your wife and child hug the dog.

i wish your wife, child, dog the best. 

find a trainer.


doggiedad said:


> your child was bit in the face and that's after 2 weeks
> of your dog growling at your wife and child when they
> attempt to hug him. you're right, i'm confused about why
> would you allow your wife and child to continue to hug
> ...





Sammy79 said:


> Listen genius, obvious you're not in the house to understand what's going on with your smart replies. Instead of making smart mouth comments, how bout making logic comments on what could be wrong with my dog. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all. My dog isn't growling everyday for two weeks. This happens 10% of the time. We had stopped hugging him after the incident. The purpose of this thread is to help find out what could be wrong with my dog, not post comments attacking in case you're still confused which obviously you are. You're a bitter person and it shows in your replies. I feel bad for your dog. No need to reply back, you've been useless in this thread when others have been extremely helpful.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

doggiedad is right

why did you let it get to a bite? you saw the signs.

the only time i touch my dog is to pet her head shes not a big stuffed animal


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

you said he spends 95 percent of his time indoors maybe less kissing more exercise?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

No more uninvited kissy/huggy. 

Perhaps time to neuter, as you are at/past the time you've enjoyed the greatest benefit(s) from waiting.

Rule out any medical issues.

Good luck!!!!!!!!!


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

well welcome to Virginia when you get here...Lymes disease is very HIGH here...even with frontline and k9 advantix i have still found many ticks on my dogs this year..they are out of control this year..my dogs get the vaccine. are you moving to northern va?


Sammy79 said:


> We are in Southern Mississippi and from what I've just read it's very low here. We also give him frontline plus monthly. We are about to move to your area next month.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Many dogs don't enjoy this type of contact. Just because he put up with it when he was younger and now he's trying to stop it *doesn't mean he's aggressive at all.* He's only trying to tell you to please stop. I'm very physical with my puppy too, but I try to remember that some contact is almost like mauling them, so I'm respectful and try not to overdo it. They like their personal space, just as we do.


 
*The dog BIT the kid (a family member) in the face and you don't consider him aggressive? What would it take for you to change your mind - eating an arm?*

*The cause might be up to decide but the dog is aggressive and needs to be treated as such and the cause discovered as soon as possible!*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The Other End of the Leash explains why many dogs are *not* comfortable with hugging/kissing.

As chelle said.
1) get medical checked out.
2) no more hugging/kissing unless he asks, and only after you're done what you're doing (sleeping, eating, etc.) and can give him attention.

This will take WORK on your part - here's a site already listed but maybe you missed it. 
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> ....The number of diseases of an un-neutered/spayed dog is generally higher then spayed/neutered dog.


Please don't do that unless you wish to open up a completely different discussion, which we shouldn't here! 

Additionally, since you've always speutered yours early, there is no comparison that you can make since you haven't seen both sides!

I also cannot do that, as I've spayed females early, but have waited on one male. 

Anyway, OP, best of luck, but please be very careful and diligent.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sammy79 said:


> It wasn't bad, just a nip!


Quite the leap, codmaster, from a warning nip to "eating an arm" 
I suppose I could call you "aggressive" too, since you have to super-size your fonts to make your point. So Eli was also making a point. Unfortunately my crystal ball is in the shop, or I'd be able to tell you why.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> Please don't do that unless you wish to open up a completely different discussion, which we shouldn't here!
> 
> Additionally, since you've always speutered yours early, there is no comparison that you can make since you haven't seen both sides!
> 
> ...


First of all I stated in my post that I didn't have personal experience with it. I don't know what your experiences are in this area but I have plenty. I worked at a vet for many years and seen lots of things....might not be personal experience in my home but I have had that experience and I can say that because I seen it over and over and over again. I choose not to have the experiences in my home that I have witnessed, therefore I do spay/neuter early. I didn't start the conversation, the OP did and I just made a statement that is based on facts that I have seen and witnessed.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm sorry Sammy79, I know your dog's name is Ace (not Eli as I posted above in my reply to codmaster) I guess I was a little upset when I was typing and confused the two names. Well, I do get upset when people don't see any grey area whatsoever. But I have to look at it from someone else's side too. Maybe a warning nip and an outright mauling can be equated. I personally think that's ridiculous.


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## Alrod (Aug 4, 2012)

I find this thread interesting to say the least. I have grown up around dogs all my life (family, friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc.) I have a tendency to hug dogs, and never in my 48 years have I had a dog growl at me let alone bite me. I am talking anything from mini poodles to GSD's to Rottweilers.

I guess all of our life experiences are different. To me having someone say "Don't hugs dogs" is like saying don't hug your children or a friend. Very strange, very odd. That's not to say that if I spotted an aggressive dog from a distance, that I would try to pet or hug it. That's just common sense not to. I am basically talking about family pets or dogs that I am familiar with.

I hope the OP gets this figured out. Especially since the dog allowed it at first, but now doesn't like it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Think about how dogs interact with each other. Do they hug each other?? No. In fact, when a dog goes to "hug" another dog, it's a sign of aggression.
It's nothing in a dog's vocabulary. 

It is not unusual _at all_ for dogs to not appreciate that contact, and especially not from children, who again, are seen as equals, not leaders.

I do agree with Cliff who said that structure had broken down from the beginning and this dog has been allowed to get away with murder, he thinks he writes the rules now. And that's not a good position for any dog. A pushy dog such as this needs to learn he's not the leader in the home. 

And again I'd recommend "Mind Games" to get things back on track.



> Maybe a warning nip and an outright mauling can be equated. I personally think that's ridiculous.


It is ridiculous when you think of the damage a full-grown dog is capable of doing.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> First of all I stated in my post that I didn't have personal experience with it. I don't know what your experiences are in this area but I have plenty. I worked at a vet for many years and seen lots of things....*might not be personal experience in my home* but I have had that experience and I can say that because *I seen it* over and over and over again. I choose not to have the experiences in my home that I have witnessed, therefore I do spay/neuter early. I didn't start the conversation, the OP did and I just *made a statement that is based on facts* that I have seen and witnessed.


I do not believe for a single second that dog behavior in a vet office is something that can truly be used for a speutered vs intact arguement. The best of dogs, intact or not, are not quite themselves at the vet.

You made a statement about long term HEALTH issues and if you wish to do that, I want it backed up with numbers and stats! Not just "what I have seen." If you're going to advise others, you really must be ready to back it up!

*Experiencing it in your home* is kind of a big deal. To base everything off of vet office experiences is leaving a lot out. I have two early spayed females, one intact male and one male neutered around 10 months. So I guess I have a decent comparison base. The earliest spayed female has incontinence issues and marks worse than most males. The neutered male likes to pick on the intact male until the intact boy gets grumpy and eventually, growly. That's what it is in the house, not at a vet's office! You can't see the workings of these things only in a vet's office.

As far as the hugging and such... I do believe people equate that with love, without understanding dogs do not necessarily equate it in the same way. Some dogs are lovey, some are not, some want it on their own terms. Bailey lets me love on him, hug him, kiss him -- but at times, he simply tolerates it. I can tell he isn't wanting it.  He comes to me lovey in the mornings, to get me out of bed. The rest of the day? Nah. Not interested. His brother is a lovey dog and enjoys that sort of interaction 98% of the time. It's about reading the dog, I think. It isn't about us, although too many of us want it to be about us.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But there again, my 10yr. old spayed girl was spayed at 6mos. and has no incontinence yet the one I had spayed at age 6 did. 

This thread really isn't about that anyway --- the op had some concerns about growth and at 18mos., the benefit of waiting is pretty much over. 
Since he's already having issues, I'd suggest getting it done and getting surges of testosterone out of the mix so you can work with the dog.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> Maybe a warning nip and an outright mauling can be equated. I personally think that's ridiculous.


If the kid had of lost an eye then maybe it wouldn't seem quite so ridiculous....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> I do not believe for a single second that dog behavior in a vet office is something that can truly be used for a speutered vs intact arguement. The best of dogs, intact or not, are not quite themselves at the vet.
> 
> You made a statement about long term HEALTH issues and if you wish to do that, I want it backed up with numbers and stats! Not just "what I have seen." If you're going to advise others, you really must be ready to back it up!
> 
> *Experiencing it in your home* is kind of a big deal. To base everything off of vet office experiences is leaving a lot out. I have two early spayed females, one intact male and one male neutered around 10 months. So I guess I have a decent comparison base. The earliest spayed female has incontinence issues and marks worse than most males..


*Please* go back and read the post.I never talked about behaviors or long term health issues, ...we were talking about future diseases..Sadly the number of dogs I seen with pyometria, other cancers, and doggie abortions was quite high. I'm positive that anyone that works in a vet's office will have the same experiences, so are you saying that everyone on here that works in that type of setting doesn't know what they are talking about? _I'm not going to base any medical decision on what I read, I'll base it on what I have seen first hand and had to deal with..I have that option, most people don't._ I would rather deal with behavior issues(marking, etc) over a dog in so much pain because of pyrometria any day. I really don't care if people spay/neuter early or late or ever. Its not my decision, not my dog, but I definitely don't want to hear it when that dog gets sick and it could have been prevented. Now I'm done talking about this subject, I know what I have seen, I know how the dogs can suffer and I'm certainly entitled to an opinion...just like everyone else. Have a beautiful Sunday


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> But there again, my 10yr. old spayed girl was spayed at 6mos. and has no incontinence yet the one I had spayed at age 6 did.
> 
> This thread really isn't about that anyway --- the op had some concerns about growth and at 18mos., the benefit of waiting is pretty much over.
> Since he's already having issues, I'd suggest getting it done and getting surges of testosterone out of the mix so you can work with the dog.


You are 100% correct. I just hope that the family and dog can all live together peacefully without further incident.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The real trouble is that OP has allowed the growling for "a few weeks". And now it's escalating. I'm happy that OP is here seeking advice, but frankly if this were my dog, on the occasion of the very first growl I would have had him seen by a vet. So I'm also disappointed that OP is ignoring a clear signal from his dog. 

Also, OP says his dog likes hugs and kisses. Since I can't be there to see the body language, I'll have to take him at his word. But maybe OP hasn't noticed the squinty eyes or the flattened ears or the turn of the head. Maybe the dog's been trying to tell them for months that he doesn't enjoy this type of contact? Who knows.

I do know that the next time the bite/nip will be worse, and doggiedad nailed it in the very first reply: why are you doing this? Other people have tried to help, but the only real help is going to come from a vet and/or a competent trainer.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> I do not believe for a single second that dog behavior in a vet office is something that can truly be used for a speutered vs intact arguement. The best of dogs, intact or not, are not quite themselves at the vet.
> 
> You made a statement about long term HEALTH issues and if you wish to do that, I want it backed up with numbers and stats! Not just "what I have seen." If you're going to advise others, you really must be ready to back it up!
> 
> ...


Whether a Family dog likes a hug or kiss or two or not, they CANNOT think they can get away with *any *aggression because of these from a family member!

Check the medical issues of course!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Blanketback said:


> The real trouble is that OP has allowed the growling for "a few weeks". And now it's escalating. I'm happy that OP is here seeking advice, but frankly if this were my dog, on the occasion of the very first growl I would have had him seen by a vet. So I'm also disappointed that OP is ignoring a clear signal from his dog.
> 
> Also, OP says his dog likes hugs and kisses. Since I can't be there to see the body language, I'll have to take him at his word. *But maybe OP hasn't noticed the squinty eyes or the flattened ears or the turn of the head. Maybe the dog's been trying to tell them for months that he doesn't enjoy this type of contact? Who knows.*
> 
> I do know that the next time the bite/nip will be worse, and doggiedad nailed it in the very first reply: why are you doing this? Other people have tried to help, but the only real help is going to come from a vet and/or a competent trainer.


THIS - exactly. Which is why FAMILY PAWS is an awesome website as you can learn the body language which is telling people "back off please", dogs love petted and attention as a rule, but closeness to the face is quite uncomfortable for many of them!

Yesterday we adopted out a Pom we'd had here a few months. I'd already noticed that he didn't like close contact to the face. He turns his head, leans away. A less observant person who doesn't care about dog body language would miss it. 
I showed a few people how he did, and explained that while he loves snuggling and being held, he is not comfortable at all with kisses directly to his face.

When kids got in his little pen with him, or held him, he became very distraught but nobody else would pick up on that, either. He tolerated it, yes. But leaned away, panted, licked his lips, did everything but take a nip.
In the home, that would change. As he gave signals he was distraught and was not enjoying it (licking lips and yawning are key signals to watch for) and nobody respected that, a growl and/or nip may have ensued.

Basically, not a dog for a home with kids. But even adult owners will usually fail to pick up on the head turning, lip licking, yawning, etc. 

Somehow our country has gone to believing dogs are automatons that ought to put up with everything we can dish out with a tail wag, but that is simply not the case. 
In forcing dogs to live in our artificial packs of humans and other dogs, we must always be aware that a dog is still an individual with likes and dislikes, and respect those. LEARN about them, and respect them. 

These are not little furry people and they are not furry robots. 

Temple Grandin's books - ANIMALS IN TRANSLATION and ANIMALS MAKE US HUMAN are both excellent books - I read the former one first and I learned so much, just awesome books, and help us further understand how we need to be interacting with our pets, and above all, reading their stress signals and body language.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I haven't read all the posts, but have a simple idea. Don't let people hug your dog. A growl is a good thing. It is communication that we should innately understand; the dog is uncomfortable with the situation. The nip is the next level of communication. The dog should not have had to take it that far. The next level will be a very bad bite. Some dogs just don't like to be hugged or crowded. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I really don't like to be crowded either but as a human I don't have to growl at people. I can just tell them to back off. Dogs communicate in the way they know how. I don't think it is something that is an issue for a behaviorist necessarily. (Unless the behaviorist will help the family understand and live with the dog in a safer and more comfortable manner).


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm with msvette & others here. I'm not saying you NEED to have him tolerate hugging, at all, but that kind of response is worrisome.

I would get your dog neutered. It won't fix the problem but it will give you a much easier base to work from. Testosterone in a dog creates a sort of behavior where they are more likely to challenge you. It's very much tied into the dominant/submissive roles in an actual pack (which aren't as well-defined as in wolves, but the general idea is still there).

It won't make the behavioral issues go away entirely, but it may lessen their severity, and at least give you an easier platform from which to change that behavior.

NILF is a great regimen to work off of. This will re-establish in his mind that you are in charge. If he's neutered he will _likely_ be more forgiving about mistakes you make along the way.

I can get right in my dog's face, hug him, etc, with no problems, he'll keep leaning into me and licking me and being perfectly happy. He's also intact, but I knew from day one to establish a very strict behavioral hierarchy. I say, he obeys. Always. When I do have behavioral issues with him they are relatively minor but I also always notice that they are correlated with me dropping how strict I am with him. I stop requiring immediate obedience, I let him get away with messing around a bit and grumbling before obeying, etc.

I think he would be easier if he was neutered, like his doggy pal is. But not a lot, because I've gotten the base established from a very young age. Your dog has been allowed to be boss, and it's going to take more if you want to see turn-around. You could leave intact and *maybe* see the same behavioral turn-around, in time (I consider that unlikely though). Getting him neutered, and getting him to a behaviorist will make this turn-around quick. And if he's bitten a child, he needs a QUICK turn-around. If this becomes a legal issue at any point in time, a judge will want to know that you've been doing something to fix the problems. Having him neutered and seeing a trainer will be two marks ON his side, instead of AGAINST him.

Just my two cents. You don't need to require him to accept hugging but the aggressive behavior needs to be curbed quickly. Neuter, train, and train others how to act around him.

A little before 18 months I noticed a spike of aggressive behavior from my dog. I think it may be another testosterone surge and part of a dog's development. The less you've established a clear role from him, the more potentially dangerous he will be. The dogs I've seen that were neutered before this age never had the problem. Samson is back to "normal" now (I didn't have him neutered then because there were some medical issues going on as well), but it was definitely a very trying time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have to see it from the dog's perspective . hugging and kissing are signs of affection understood by people . Even there it could be the kiss of some crime mobster don - entirely different meaning attached.
Agree with Cliff and others who said the same thing.

Dr. this hurts when I do this. reply , Then don't do that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Short of real serious physical pain, there is no place and no experience that a family dog should bite a family member for. NONE!

Hugging and kissing? - Absolutely no justification for a bite!!!!!!!!!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Short of real serious physical pain, there is no place and no experience that a family dog should bite a family member for. NONE!
> 
> Hugging and kissing? - Absolutely no justification for a bite!!!!!!!!!


This was my feeling all along... although with not seeing anyone else saying this I thought I'd just keep it to myself. I'd be beyond worried at this behavior. Liking it, not liking it... to me it's not justification for a dog to bite a family member. 

I also had a dog which turned aggressive to men. (With good reason, though) I was advised to have the dog neutered. Didn't matter... I wasn't going to breed him anyway... but it did NOTHING to curb the behaviors. Not a thing. I don't buy into that anymore. I think more importantly is the dog's temperament and how it's raised. Hormones don't (IMO) play such a large part that neutering is going to change the behaviors or make it any easier to manage those behaviors. However, it's a good idea since it's doubtful this is a breed worthy dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jag said:


> This was my feeling all along... although with not seeing anyone else saying this I thought I'd just keep it to myself. I'd be beyond worried at this behavior. Liking it, not liking it... to me it's not justification for a dog to bite a family member.
> 
> I also had a dog which turned aggressive to men. (With good reason, though) I was advised to have the dog neutered. Didn't matter... I wasn't going to breed him anyway... but it did NOTHING to curb the behaviors. Not a thing. I don't buy into that anymore. I think more importantly is the dog's temperament and how it's raised. Hormones don't (IMO) play such a large part that neutering is going to change the behaviors or make it any easier to manage those behaviors. However, it's a good idea since it's doubtful this is a breed worthy dog.


Thanks! Just my own opinion on how a family pet is supposed to act around the family. I also can't buy the argument about "don't go near the dog when he/she is eating or chewing a bone!". My own opinion is that a dog should NEVER be allowed to show aggression to any family member (short of serious physical pain obviously).

I also don't believe that neutering/spaying (after adulthood esp.). it hasn't in any dog that I have ever owned or been around. doesn't have any impact on a dog's temperament (short of maybe male competition in the area of a female in heat!).

BTW, might as well express your honest opinion on the board here. That is where we can all learnfrom each other - don't have to agree with each other. That would be way too dull and we wouldn't learn anything anyway.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Thanks! Just my own opinion on how a family pet is supposed to act around the family. I also can't buy the argument about "don't go near the dog when he/she is eating or chewing a bone!". My own opinion is that a dog should NEVER be allowed to show aggression to any family member (short of serious physical pain obviously).
> 
> I also don't believe that neutering/spaying (after adulthood esp.). it hasn't in any dog that I have ever owned or been around. doesn't have any impact on a dog's temperament (short of maybe male competition in the area of a female in heat!).
> 
> BTW, might as well express your honest opinion on the board here. That is where we can all learnfrom each other - don't have to agree with each other. That would be way too dull and we wouldn't learn anything anyway.


My thoughts exactly to all points above.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

msvette2u I think this , from a University of Guelph lecture might help support your comments

*A Study of Calming Signals*


‎February-‎08-‎12, ‏‎8:29:12 PM | Emily Fisher
This video is an unintentional showcase of how calming/stress signals escalate.
*​*This Beagle, “Emma”, did her best to tell “Muffin” the cat that she was feeling threatened and uncomfortable. Watch her ears drop and the lip-licks when her chin is on the floor, and again when she lifts her head. She is stiff and staring. She looks away from the cat, softening her eyes some, telling her “you’re making me uncomfortable, please go away”. At around 0:28, she shows “whale eye”, a stiff and wide-eyed look to the side, showing the whites of her eyes. She looks away again, but when the cat steps in toward her at 0:35, Emma escalates from “please go away” to “go away or I’ll make you”. Look at the whale-eye and frozen posture. This is not a comfortable or happy dog, she is barely tolerating Muffin’s behaviour. If I see these behaviours from a dog I know that she is a moment away from a reaction and I’d better do something (or stop doing something) if I don’t want to know the nature of the escalation! The cat backs off a little bit and Emma is ambivalent, likely still hoping to diffuse the tension without conflict. The last straw is the cat batting her face, which she gets away with once before Emma becomes fully offensive. Just before the second bat, Emma’s lips contract, her commissures shortening forward and lifting. She doesn’t make a move forward until after being batted the second time.
Other stress/calming signals available to Emma, in addition to the lip licks, whale eye, freezing/tension, head turn/averted gaze and stiff ears (forward or back), could have been yawning, panting, closing the mouth if she were panting (usually accompanied by stillness), ridges of tension around the eyes, mouth, and forehead, puckered lips, elevation from the base of the tail, and standing on her tiptoes.
What happens with Emma and Muffin from here is known only by the poster of the video. I would like to hope that it was entirely ritualized aggression since it has been posted on the internet!
This whole interaction was one minute and three seconds in length. Emma spent that full minute, and likely some time before the video started, telling Muffin (in as polite a way as possible) that she was uncomfortable with her presence and/or behaviour. Muffin, a cat obviously not savvy when it comes to dog behaviour, did not heed this message and pushed Emma to escalate. There were at least two people in the room (camera person and the legs) who watched this play out without heeding Emma’s signs of discomfort. Muffin may be just a cat doing the weird things that cats do, but she was infringing on Emma’s space and making her very uncomfortable. Emma tried many times to diffuse the tension, but to no avail.
How many times does this play out with people? How often are dogs forced into uncomfortable social interactions with each other? How often do we poorly equip our dogs for social interaction through poorly executed or non-existent socialization? How often do trainers get calls because the trusting and loyal family dog “suddenly” bit their child, “out of the blue with no warning”? Dogs are very tolerant of us, when you understand how to see stress it becomes all that much more obvious just how much we put them through, from daily life to teasing to abuse passing as ‘training’. When we don’t heed their quiet stress behaviours as their method of communicating with us, their behaviours get louder until we hear.
Pop quiz: What is this dog telling its people? What would be an appropriate action to take to prevent escalation of this behaviour, as we saw with Emma and Muffin?
(embedded viewing seems to be disabled, but click the link that comes up to watch on Youtube)
​ *UPDATE:*
Coincidentally, the day I posted this blog a news anchor was bitten in the face by a Dogo on live TV. The reason? He was stressed, restrained and she kissed his face. This bite did not come out of nowhere (and had nothing to do with the dog’s breed).
See an interview about it here: http://www.myfoxhouston.com//dpp/living/myfox_pets/120210-anchor-bitten-by-dog
And another great article here: http://wagandtrain.blogspot.com/2012/02/perfect-storm.html 
*For more information on calming/stress signals:*




The Language of Dogs (photos)
“On Talking Terms with Dogs: What your Dog is Telling you” by Turid Rugaas


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

yes dogs do someimes give signals that they may be uncomfortable with family member actions - no question and a wise (knowledgable?) owner will notice these and act accordingly. no question we need to be able to "read' our dogs.

BUT my point and the point of some others was not that (we agree that the OP didn't appear to do a good job of reading it) BUT instead that NO family dog can be allowed to get away with showing this type of aggression, no matter what the provocation (within reasonable limits of course).

Whether we use a H$%$ of a correction when it shows or we use some PO methods or anything else to teach the dog that biting is NEVER allowed to a family member - this must be taught to the dog. To the dog - you must, BUT NO BITING EVER!

Personally we have owned some 7/8 adult GSD's and I could never picture ANY of them even attempting to bit myself, wife or son!

The OP, I would hope, can understand that (as well as get a LOT better at reading his dog).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Where did _anyone_ say biting is okay...??


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Thanks! Just my own opinion on how a family pet is supposed to act around the family. I also can't buy the argument about "don't go near the dog when he/she is eating or chewing a bone!". My own opinion is that a dog should NEVER be allowed to show aggression to any family member (short of serious physical pain obviously).
> 
> I also don't believe that neutering/spaying (after adulthood esp.). it hasn't in any dog that I have ever owned or been around. doesn't have any impact on a dog's temperament (short of maybe male competition in the area of a female in heat!).
> 
> BTW, might as well express your honest opinion on the board here. That is where we can all learnfrom each other - don't have to agree with each other. That would be way too dull and we wouldn't learn anything anyway.


We've disagreed on these points before, and apparently still do.

I see no reason to disrupt an eating dog, nor a dog enjoying his bone.

Granted, if the owner must remove whatever object from the dog, then it must be. Dog must not object or present any aggressiveness.

Yet, you have a dog here that clearly does not enjoy hugging. Just doesn't like it and has expressed that. Why not respect that this particular dog doesn't want to be hugged? I do not want to be hugged by certain people and would, myself, be aggressive if they continued to fawn on me, hehe. It sounds like the dog gave plenty of warnings that HEY! I don't like it when you do that! So why insist the dog continue to deal with it?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> where did _anyone_ say biting is okay...??


 

argh!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> We've disagreed on these points before, and apparently still do.
> 
> I see no reason to disrupt an eating dog, nor a dog enjoying his bone.
> 
> ...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> chelle said:
> 
> 
> > We've disagreed on these points before, and apparently still do.
> ...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *argh![/*QUOTE] Pirates Day?
> 
> I agree with codmaster btw. When you know a dog doesn't like to be hugged, don't spend your day hugging them, but they need to learn to tolerate it. (assuming the dog isn't sick)
> So for those who think the owner should just not hug the dog because the dog doesn't like it, (again, I know until they find out if the dog is sick of course they shouldn't) where does it end? Some dogs don't like to get their nails clipped or take baths. So you just stop grooming them because they don't like it or do you teach them to deal with it?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> codmaster said:
> 
> 
> > I do not disagree that tragic consequences could result, but better yet, just instruct (train!) the *humans* to not hug the dog who doesn't like to be hugged. Easy pacheezie. I'm talking about not *hugging* the dog -- not about the bite aspect. Of COURSE no dog can be allowed to bite, derrr , *but this dog is apparently getting snarky stupid when hugged. So... don't hug!*
> ...


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It doesn't matter how well trained your pet is. Every dog has its own threshold for defense. (I am comfortable up to this point, beyond this and I am uncomfortable and am going to warn you not to go any further). If you spend enough time with the dog and put enough pressure on that dog, you will eventually learn where that threshold is. If you choose to push the dog beyond that threshold, you have to be prepared to deal with the dog's defensive behavior.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs are animals and not people, some dogs are not going to let anyone but the alpha person do some things,(notice I said alpha person and not pack person, there is a difference as any dog trainer knows). Fortunately, most of these things are associated with pain as one poster pointed out, but there are a few very good GS that carry this intolerance to other areas. In those cases unless you are a very skilled trainer you probably do better to leave well enough alone if it is realistically feasible, as opposed to forcing the issue because the Bill of owners rights says you can, or the possibility of a created hypothetical that occurs so infrequently that it really isn't a basis to not leave well enough alone.(Like the food issue, I personally give, and teach,my pack to respect a dog eating and leave them alone. Having said that, if I wanted to take food from them while eating I could condition even a difficult dog to accept it, but my point is in 40 plus years, owning more dogs than most of you dream of, and probably stronger than a lot of you deal with, I have had no problems with letting a dog eat in peace).
One last thing....a dog that guards while eating, does not necessarily translate into a dog that will demonstrate the same behavior when in distress. A dog guarding their food is in control at the time, a dog in distress (like choking or obstruction in throat) is no longer focus on the food which was creating the guarding. Separate mindsets.
Frankly, if you have dealt with many many dogs, you understand that once a dog goes into distress and you go into intervention mode, the odds of possibly getting bit increase a lot, and it's not because of the initial behavior while eating; as a dog in distress(whether it is a good dog while eating or a "bad" dog while eating), may possibly bite you in distress while doing an intervention around their mouth.
There is no right and wrong in issues about whether you should or should let a dog eat without disturbance, both ways work 98% of the time. But there are some dogs that it is more practical for THAT owner to let the dog eat undisturbed, because millions of people who routinely do this don't have enough created scenarios occur to foster a demand that everyone should do it one way or the other.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

codmaster said:


> *(i.e. with a visitors little toddler - happened to us and we found our dog laying next to the little fella eating her supper one kibble at a time from the little guy) Much better, don't you think?*


 hi. I haven't really followed this thread much.. but..
It irks me that the toddler was even near the dog, it might just be the wording, but you say 'found'. As if no one was supervising or aware of it until you suddenly look over and see the dog next to the tot. Forgive me if I am wrong..



> Yet, you have a dog here that clearly does not enjoy hugging. Just doesn't like it and has expressed that. Why not respect that this particular dog doesn't want to be hugged? I do not want to be hugged by certain people and would, myself, be aggressive if they continued to fawn on me, hehe. *BUT would you punch your brother if he gave you a hug?*It sounds like the dog gave plenty of warnings that HEY! I don't like it when you do that! So why insist the dog continue to deal with it?


 I'm sorry but saying 'brother' is totally unrealistic to dogs.. Because they cannot think abstractedly, you are just you. You are not a brother, parent, best friend. Each encounter either positively or negatively impacts relation with said animal-- and the strong history of putting the dog into a constant state of defense / stress does not help the relationship, regardless if you think you're in the 'pack' or not. Thats why people who 'alpha roll' and unfairly over correct their dog get bitten; they have built up over a period of time negative associations with themselves. And for this dog, there has been 16 months of negative association because the family continues to put the dog in a vulnerable state.

I'm not blaming OP-- just saying some things need to change. If they wish to continue to hug and kiss their dog they must first repair their bond and then create a positive association with hugs and kisses.



> *Because it could happen accidentally with truly tragic consequences if the dog is not taught that it can't bite family members, that is my reason!*
> 
> *Do you think that a normal dog can not be taught that it is NOT acceptable to bite family members?*
> 
> *If so, please see any professional quality trainer.*


 The instances that the dogs are taught to not bite are proofed scenarios and are not a 'fit-all' training. Dogs cannot generalize, so its not a matter of "Dogs cannot bite family members". It is more of "Dogs cannot bite family members and/or trusted persons under so-and-so conditions"
These dogs also have a lot of trust within handlers, and are usually proofed and trained since puppyhood to not use their mouths.
And when the dogs are trained this-- So are the handlers and family. They are taught not to provoke or do certain things and are ultimately responsible for the children's actions.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

For what it's worth, I also agree with codmaster - a dog shouldn't bite a child. Now, back in the real world...the majority of dog bites are inflicted on children, by dogs known to them. What does this mean? The statistics don't say whether the dog was sick or not, trained or not, teased or not. "Shouldn't" and "couldn't" aren't in the picture. "Don't" and "won't" are a pipe dream. And please don't go on and on about how wonderfully trained your dog is - for the simple reason that there just might be a parent or dog owner reading this thread who's intimately familiar with the statistics.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, exactly, *in general* dog should/shouldn't. 

Dog is/has. <--- what is concerning and hopefully we will get an update from the OP soon!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

robk said:


> It doesn't matter how well trained your pet is. Every dog has its own threshold for defense. (I am comfortable up to this point, beyond this and I am uncomfortable and am going to warn you not to go any further). If you spend enough time with the dog and put enough pressure on that dog, you will eventually learn where that threshold is. If you choose to push the dog beyond that threshold, you have to be prepared to deal with the dog's defensive behavior.


 
*Defense against a family member "Hugging" the dog? Are you serious? That dog has some real mental problems! This is a pet!*

*I would then "deal with the dog's defensive behavior" all right!*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Same ol...different day


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Several pages ago, the OP mentions that his dog is being treated for hip dysplasia. It is conceivable that this dog has spinal arthritis/spondylosis and that hugging causes pain. It could also be possible that this pain only occurrs intermittently, depending upon the dog's body position and pain level at the time of the hug. For this reason, I think that a vet visit is in order and hope that the OP will come back and provide new information.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> It irks me that the toddler was even near the dog, it might just be the wording, but you say 'found'. As if no one was supervising or aware of it until you suddenly look over and see the dog next to the tot. Forgive me if I am wrong..


I really don't understand this. Why would it "irk" you that a toddler was near the dog?? I think, maybe, the true nature of the GSD has been forgotten. From reading a lot of posts here, I'm saddened by the current state of a great many GSD's. They should have an impeccable temperament. My male was one of those dogs. We had neighbor children who ran around unsupervised by their parents (and they were small children). These kids were afraid of my shepherd, yet constantly came to the fence doing things like poking at him then screaming their little heads off. They went so far as to open my gate and come into my back yard when my dogs were out in the yard. I heard this screaming... like someone was killing a kid. I looked out back, and there stood one of the kids (a pre-schooler) in my yard screaming bloody murder. My male was just standing there. He NEVER bit a child, was never aggressive to any child and was completely trustworthy. I expected this from him. This same child opened my front door and walked into my house even! Still, no response from my dog. He was well aware of the difference between a child and an adult. In a shepherd that was well bred, I'd expect no less. If I had to have concerns over a toddler around my shepherd, I wouldn't consider that to be a good dog and my concerns would run well beyond just a child.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If people don't breed for impeccable temperament first, why would you expect to see more of it......doesn't make sense to me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Many dogs are freaked out by kids. Doesn't matter the breed.
And every dog breed out there is affected by poor breeding practices, and temperament and health are the 1st to go. 
Sometimes those two are intertwined. A dog who doesn't feel good is going to have a lot less tolerance for childhood shenanigans.

My dogs would never be outside when kids are outside to poke, pick and tease.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> If people don't breed for impeccable temperament first, why would you expect to see more of it......doesn't make sense to me.


I didn't think I said I expected to see more of it, my point was I'm saddened by the amount of shepherds with poor temperaments. There's no way that I know of to stop people from breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred. What I honestly expect is to see more shepherds with bad temperaments. There's a whole ethics debate in there...which I won't go into.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Many dogs are freaked out by kids. Doesn't matter the breed.
> And every dog breed out there is affected by poor breeding practices, and temperament and health are the 1st to go.
> Sometimes those two are intertwined. A dog who doesn't feel good is going to have a lot less tolerance for childhood shenanigans.
> 
> My dogs would never be outside when kids are outside to poke, pick and tease.


If my dogs were never outside when kids were out, then they'd never be outside. During the few months they lived next door, I got after both the kids and their parents. I padlocked my fence. I had to start keeping my dogs inside when their kids were out in their yard. However, I own my home and my dogs can't spend 24/7 inside because of stupid people. I did threaten to beat the kids that lived behind us if I caught them anywhere near my dogs again after I caught them teasing my dogs. They stopped harassing them. Trust me, I don't "allow" anything. I also never ignore a barking dog...which resulted in the kids getting caught. My other neighbor would also wait until my dogs were outside to let his dogs out. (He has a dog aggressive dog) I have a very large fenced yard that my dogs loved playing ball in. I've never harassed my neighbors with my dogs (yet) but they don't extend the same courtesy. Bottom line, in the summer you'd have to keep your dogs in all the time where I live to avoid obnoxious kids and dogs all the time. Doesn't matter if you're outside with them or not. Kids have NO respect anymore.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Jag said:


> I really don't understand this. Why would it "irk" you that a toddler was near the dog?? I think, maybe, the true nature of the GSD has been forgotten. From reading a lot of posts here, I'm saddened by the current state of a great many GSD's. They should have an impeccable temperament. My male was one of those dogs. We had neighbor children who ran around unsupervised by their parents (and they were small children). These kids were afraid of my shepherd, yet constantly came to the fence doing things like poking at him then screaming their little heads off. They went so far as to open my gate and come into my back yard when my dogs were out in the yard. I heard this screaming... like someone was killing a kid. I looked out back, and there stood one of the kids (a pre-schooler) in my yard screaming bloody murder. My male was just standing there. He NEVER bit a child, was never aggressive to any child and was completely trustworthy. I expected this from him. This same child opened my front door and walked into my house even! Still, no response from my dog. He was well aware of the difference between a child and an adult. In a shepherd that was well bred, I'd expect no less. If I had to have concerns over a toddler around my shepherd, I wouldn't consider that to be a good dog and my concerns would run well beyond just a child.


 It irked me because there was no supervision. Toddlers don't exactly know right from wrong, and are capable of being quite bratty.
Too many possibilities. What if the dog did happen to be food aggressive? The thing is, many owners are not aware of these things.. A lot of people think dogs like being pet, when many of them could live without it. They don't see the avoidance and stress signals, and that is why bites happen. People get too cozy and confident with their dogs, especially in situations that they may have not experienced before.

Yes on everyday terms with the owner in their presence, dog might be trust worthy of interacting with kids. But the post I read, led me to believe that the owner either wasn't in the room or was oblivious to the dog for a moment. Dogs act different without their handlers / leaders, separation anxiety, anyone? This is putting the dog in the driver seat and sometimes, they don't make good decisions. If it was your kid and your dog, who have a history of being ok together, then it is probably okay. But again, to me it sounded like the poster's dog, with their friend's toddler, unattended.

Also, a lot of dogs react to loud noises, so if the toddler started wailing, dog could panic and bite, or dog gets blamed for toddler crying because no one was supervising and didn't see what happened.


Every situation is handled differently, I personally don't let my dog outside unless I'm out there with him. Figure I need the fresh air.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well nothing like scaring off the OP (tho I hope he comes back with an update)

lots of good advice, and as usual lots of nonsense that doesn't much relate to the original topic.

Dogs are dogs, some dogs like this type of affection, some don't, The minute you hear a growl from a dog who has otherwise tolerated whatever behaviors/interactions, is the minute you stop what your doing and try to delve deeper into 'why'.

Some of my dogs like to be hugged, some tolerate it but aren't 'into' it. I tell ANY kids that come into my house, don't hug my dogs. You can pet them, play with them, whatever, but don't hug them or put them in a strangle hold or crawl all over them 

As for dogs biting their 'owners', just read some of threads here, happens way to often. Acceptable? No, but dogs are dogs depending on the situation. 

My advice to OP, do a full vet work up FIRST, if it's clear, find yourself a good in home trainer/behaviorist to access the situation. AND stop hugging the dog, if he "demands" it, ignore it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> dogs are dogs


Yep. And at the end of the day, what they SHOULD do matters little. What matters is what they_ do._ 
If you're the type to not like a dog that "may bite", then get rid of it. That simple.
However don't give it to someone else with kids. Find a rescue if one will take it.

If you're the type that respects that dogs are dogs, and may indeed bite - and do things to not aggravate that situation, then keep the dog and don't aggravate it. Don't let kids hug it and don't hug it yourself.

Because in that rose-colored glasses world, no dogs should bite, they all "should know" that kids are kids. 
But - this isn't that world. And dogs dwell with people now more than ever, across the nation and across the world. 

The best advice is know/learn your dog and know/learn it's limitations and work within those limitations.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Yep. And at the end of the day, ......
> 
> The best advice is know/learn your dog and know/learn it's limitations and work within those limitations.


:thumbup:


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