# To neuter, or not to neuter, tis be the question... (might it help?)



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm seriously considering going ahead and having Bailey neutered. I went ahead and made an appt for a few weeks from now, just so it is there and on the day I want, but I'm not completely positive I'll go thru with it.

He will be just shy of 14 months by then. 

I know many advise 18 months to 2 years. I understand the reasons; growth, masculine features, bone cancer. I had planned to make 18 months, but I had NOT planned to have another male (his littermate) come into our lives three months ago. 

The other boy is neutered (Tucker). Just lately, Bailey is becoming rather bossy/bratty with Tucker. Possessive. Wants to steal his stuff kinds of things. He's gone after him inappropriately several times. Now, Tucker likes to instigate play pretty hard sometimes, and Bailey has given him some warnings and I'm not counting that. When I say "inappropriate" I suppose you'll just have to trust me or this will get stupid-long. (Will give examples if needed, tho.)

Q 1: Might neutering decrease some of this territorial "all is mine" attitude he seems to be developing?

(And yes, they are always supervised. Easy to do when you have a small house and dogs are always right there in your face.  All controversial toys, chews removed. ) Big ugly deal over an antler last night. Bailey wanted to steal Tucker's antler. Bailey doesn't really even like antlers that well, but wanted the one Tucker had instead of his own. Went after Tucker for Tucker's antler. Bailey actually got himself a scruff over this, but was still growling and still wanting to get back to fighting for the antler. They used to be able to chew antlers side by side. Not anymore, apparently.

Q 2: For those of you with households with mutliple males, esp one neutered and another intact -- do you see differences in aggressive type tendencies on the part of the intact male? Did you eventually neuter both/all? Did it help? Any feedback on multiple male households would be very interesting and helpful!

~~

Bailey, physically, looks good. Nicely filled out. Lanky long legged stage seems to be over. I can't imagine he would grow much more in height at this point. 

I don't really feel I have any other issues related to him being intact. He doesn't mark inside or any of that. He's fine with my two spayed females, other than liking to lick their pee. He's even good with the cat. It is just this dynamic with his littermate. 

Q 3: Bottom line, do you think it would help at this point to go ahead and neuter?

Q 4: I keep hearing about neutering procedures where they glue instead of stitch. Seems the recovery time is reduced pretty dramatically. Is that true? Our vet uses stitches. I'm very tempted to find one that glues instead. Is it that much better?

Sorry so long, but if you can answer any of the above, it'll help me out. Thanks.!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

If this were my dog and I know it's not the most popular choice to make around here, but I'd go ahead and get it done.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I would go ahead and get him neutered.

Jake is just an "only dog" but he was neutered at 15 months after displaying some of these of "I'm the boss" behaviors you're talking about.

A few months later, after his hormones had settled out to castrate levels, those behaviors were gone along with his, erm, well, his balls (hard to be prudish with this subject, I guess, heh).

My dog is intact, but the relationship between Jake and Samson seems to be entirely unchanged. Jake is about 3.5 years old, so it's been over two years since he was neutered.

At fourteen months he is past most of the severe health & behavioral risks that make me cringe when people talk about neutering six month old or younger pups.

I can see the difference between Jake & Samson, too, so I don't believe it was just an issue of his adult personality coming out. Samson is much less biddable and requires me to be more of a leader. Jake is the perfect pet dog for any household, whether they are a "dog person" or just "like dogs." Very easy to handle. Samson requires a "dog person" though. I can see the difference in how he obeys and behaves around people he knows well, but only "like dogs."

Samson is 2.5 and his frame is still growing (if I were to get him neutered I honestly don't believe it would harm him, but I think it may have caused problems had he been done at 15 months like Jake). Jake was done growing, frame-wise, around 18 months or so.

On the grand scale you may be risking some health issues by getting him neutered at this age, but I don't think it's very much by now, especially compared to how genetics and diet play into the equation. If you are going to have him neutered anyway, then I'd just get him snipped four months earlier. At WORST, his behaviors with Tucker remain the same, and he's already neutered which hasn't changed your ultimate plans for him anyway. I think you're likely to see some improvement in behavior, though, as the hormones settle out of his system. If you hadn't planned to get him neutered at all, then perhaps it would be advisable to play it a bit more cautiously, but if you've decided, I'd get him neutered now.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> Q 2: For those of you with households with mutliple males, esp one neutered and another intact -- do you see differences in aggressive type tendencies on the part of the intact male? Did you eventually neuter both/all? Did it help? Any feedback on multiple male households would be very interesting and helpful!


I had two boys from same litter. One neutered young the other we waited. After about 1 year couldn't take it anymore. Unneutered males are jerks. Had him neutered, all male jerkiness went away.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you. The word "management" just keeps screaming at me. I can manage what toys/chewies are around that cause issues. Plenty of things cause no issues at all. They can play tug. They lick each others' ears and errr, occasinally other parts.  They are good buddies the vast majority of the time. 

Typical: (Playing tug with a low-value toy.. one lays down, the other lays down, no big deal, no aggression on either side.)



















I can make it another few months if it will be best for him. 

Bailey is intense/focused. This intensity helps him to do very well in Obedience. In a selfish way, I don't want to lose that. Draugr, Bailey is your Samson and Tucker is your Jake.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I would if I were you.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't have anything to add to this, but I love those pictures of your boys; they are both terribly handsome. Tucker, with his floppy ears, is simply adorable.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> Q 4: I keep hearing about neutering procedures where they glue instead of stitch. Seems the recovery time is reduced pretty dramatically. Is that true? Our vet uses stitches. I'm very tempted to find one that glues instead. Is it that much better?


Missed this question the first time. Ivan was glued, he recovered faster than any other dog. That being said he was also a lot younger. Would have waited a little longer but shelter where I got him, it was part of the adoption conditions that I had to go to a specific vet and it had to happen right away. They wanted him to stay in the shelter until he was neutered but at same time because of space shortages and him being so young they let me take him but only if I agreed to their terms. Sure wish I could have waited until 6 months and taken him to my own vet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> I would if I were you.


I would if I were you, and I certainly wouldn't worry about doing it now vs. 2-4mos. from now. 
Please don't think I'm rude. I just got in from a 5hr. trip to go rescue 2 dogs, so am not at my best - but, he's a mixed breed and you really don't have to worry about his looks 
Healthwise you've done all you can for him and now vs. later is not a big deal.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

If you plan on neutering regardless just get it done now. A couple months at his age won't change enough to really matter.

I would not get him glued at his age. Maybe for young puppies, but not active young adults. We recently had a dog come in multiple times because he kept busting his glued neuter incision open. He was bleeding all over the place and his owner was not a happy camper. FYI, the neuter was not done at my clinic. Most dogs heal fast enough with traditional sutures anyway.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

If you don't want to lose the intensity leave him intact until closer to the time when your classes are done. Jake lost a lot of his intensity after being neutered. In his case though it was NOT helping at all with obedience training.

In your case though you do have behavioral concerns. I would still recommend getting him neutered from what you have said. He will still learn obedience well, it is more in certain canine sports where the intensity is really needed to excel.


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Get him done  It's gonna make life a lot easier for him and you! 
It will take a little while for all the testosterone to leave his system but then he should be a bit more easy going 
He will still be the same old dog just a bit more relaxed with some things


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Unneutered males are jerks.


I'll have to disagree with this statement! I think it's a behavioral issue, not a testicles issue. 

Personally, I wouldn't alter anything that didn't have medical reason to do so. I don't think you are an "average" pet owner and think you have the wherewithal to appropriately manage an intact male. But, it's your personal choice and it's great that you waited. 

I have/had squabbles over resource guarding with all of my dogs, altered or not and with both males/females. I work on the behavior instead and keep a close eye on the two girls especially. Perhaps I missed it, but why do you think it's an intact male issue? Intact or not, if I brought another male home, Whiskey would be _pissed_. He seems fine with most females, but he will seriously get ruffled if other males are in his territory or taking his resources (me, bed, food, chewies, fuzzy toys). Whiskey doesn't like to share anything; he shares because I make him. 

Perhaps it has nothing to do with being intact, but I like his intensity, vigor and moxy. Personally, I wouldn't risk losing that spark by neutering. Maybe it's a jealousy/dominance issue and not a "male" issue?


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Unneutered males are jerks, but, well, I kind of like the attitude if it's not too extreme. Samson did get pretty bad but that was compounded with some medical/neurological problems related to a rabies booster (thankfully all of that is gone and dealt with now). I didn't get him neutered because it was at the same time the "male jerkiness" was surfacing and it was difficult to tell what was the medical issue and what was the hormonal issues. I'm glad I stuck it out, though, because he's growing into a calm maturity that I've not yet seen in Jake.

I find the jerkiness endearing to a point (like gbchottu, I would be more likely to refer to it as intensity, vigor, and moxy), but it's definitely there, and definitely something that is normally curbed when they are neutered. That said I'm not sure if any more intact male dogs are in my future. Jake's post-neuter personality is quite endearing. Samson challenges me, and I appreciate his personality in its own right, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to go through that again.

Looking at the differences between Samson and Jake I would say it is definitely a male issue. Yes, it is a behavioral issue, but it's directly related to male hormones, so whether you call it an issue of behavior or an issue of testicles is really a moot point; the root cause is the same.

Sometimes it's a non-issue, sometimes it' s a big issue, sometimes it can be managed, sometimes it can't. Luckily they can be neutered cheaply and easily when it can't.

It wasn't causing any problems between Jake and Samson, but Jake had other issues related to being male, in other areas of his life.

As a general rule I'm not gung-ho to neuter, but if you can objectively say the "snip" would improve both your life and your dog's life, that's a pretty solid reason to get rid of them.

Even if there is some jealousy and dominance issues, testosterone is an "exciting" hormone, not a calming one. Once he's neutered, the way he acts might possibly not change, but the intensity of his actions will likely be lowered, which should in turn improve relations between the two dogs. The strife caused by the hormones serves a good purpose in the wild but it's useless in a "pet pack." If you can handle it, great, if you like it, even better, but if you can't handle it or are miserable with it, well, the fix is cheap and easy.

I think it's admirable to rise to the challenge to keep a doggy pack intact, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't ever advocate that someone live in misery just so their dog can stay intact.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I still disagree. I would not alter my dogs based on this behavioral issue. I disagree with some of your other statements regarding intact/altered, but I won't get into it because this isn't a neuter or don't discussion. 

If I were OP, I'd try to find a behavioral fix before jumping to neuter. But that's me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I believe in neutering period. I personally do it when they are younger and always have....yes all the dogs lived 12-14 years with no major issues I don't believe they lose any intensity/focus in training whether they are neutered or not. And none of them ever lost their spark either. Its a personal choice, but you are very close to the point you were going to do it anyway and he is a mixed breed which usually presents less health issues anyways


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

At one time I had 3 males and one female , one male was intact , I honestly didn't have any problems at all. I think it mostly depends on the individual dogs.

Dodge (intact), the only things that bothered me, were his 'drooling', teeth chattering and lack of focus when around females. Never tried to have sex with them, they just made him cuckoo He wasn't a 'bossy' type of dog to begin with so he really wasn't a jerk of any kind.

I did neuter him when he hit around 3 years old, and it didn't change his behaviors or make him anything other than what he was


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You were going to do it anyway, 2 months doesn't matter. 

We see a lot of before and afters in rescue. I have never seen a male get worse after a neuter but have seen some nice behavioral turnarounds. Whether it is the increased structure in the foster home, or the procedure, cannot say for certain. But with some who were in the foster home for a while before the neuter, I think it definitely showed that it helped.

Oh - just saw the intensity thing - if they are intense before, I have not seen a drop. If Rocco were any more intense he would burst like an Angry Bird after it hit a pig!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> If Rocco were any more intense *he would burst like an Angry Bird after it hit a pig!*


:rofl:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Unneutered males are jerks,


Yes they can be.
We just got in a foster who is an intact older boy Pomeranian.
The 1st thing he did upon meeting everyone here was plunge his nose into the spayed girls' backends. They were not happy, let me tell you!!
Then marked everything in sight. 
Now he's snapping at anyone who invades his "zone" of about 5" out around him. Especially the boys, who are the only ones who might interact with him after he attempted to ravage the girls. 
He's disgusting and nobody's going to want to adopt him. 
We purchased a male "wrap" for him.
But part of me says, if his retained testicle has caused cancer by now then I'm not going to be too sad about it.
Nobody wants dogs like this, and nobody wants boys because of this behavior.
Neutered as a puppy, this behavior would not be here.
He probably got dumped (dropped off to our house by someone, unbeknownst to us) because of this behavior.

Perhaps it's "behavioral" and perhaps it's "not a testicles thing" but the average owner of dogs does not want to deal with this, and if it begins, they will not take the time _to_ deal with it.
What's annoying is, instead of neutering, they just "prefer female dogs" now.



> I have never seen a male get worse after a neuter but have seen some nice behavioral turnarounds.


:thumbup:


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

msvette, there are plenty of dogs that ARE neutered who act just like the boy you're describing. It's not because he's intact; it's because his owners never taught him basic manners. 
I'm not saying that hormones don't have an affect on behavior, but 9 times out of 10 training can take care of the problem.

ETA: I also know more than 1 FEMALE dog that hikes her leg on everything and shoves her nose up everyone's backside.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I've _never_ had a neutered boy be so obsessed and jerky with the girls' back ends, or lift their leg_ all_ over my house. And that's in 10yrs. of rescue.
All or most the intact boys do - yet no neutered boys do.
'splain??

Eta - oh, and boys who were used for stud, deliberately or not? almost 100% of them do this.
And while I might even agree with you. My statement will remain *"the average pet owner does not want to deal with this"*!

Perhaps owners here are above average. After all, you're on the 'net discussing this.
But the _average owner_ does not and _will not_ deal with it. Trust me on this. I'm the one attending all the adoption events when I hear these comments.
The average pet owner doesn't tear out their carpet or replace their furniture because a boy has soaked the ends of all the furniture in the house and the carpet underneath, or if/when they do, they don't let the boy do it again. They get rid of it. Or not get it in the 1st place.

Furthermore, when I attempt to explain that "this puppy is already neutered, greatly reducing the possibility they won't do the leg-lifting thing", they kind of look at me, wanting to believe it, then sort of roll their eyes and go on to the next booth.

So you can patiently explain to this particular half-wit how it's behavioral, etc., but trust me on this - the average person will not allow this kind of thing in their home and boys with these issues _will_ sit in rescue longer than girls. A neuter as a puppy or before puberty would have saved many of these dogs' lives.
And people in the general public should not be encouraged to leave their boys intact.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

qbchottu said:


> I still disagree. I would not alter my dogs based on this behavioral issue. I disagree with some of your other statements regarding intact/altered, but I won't get into it because this isn't a neuter or don't discussion.
> 
> If I were OP, I'd try to find a behavioral fix before jumping to neuter. But that's me.


I agree with this statement. If a person is getting their dog altered to correct a behavior problem, they are going to be very disappointed. 

I have a Golden who was altered later in life. He is still (and always will be) the aggressor. 

My GSD will be 3 in September. He is still intact. Our of my 4 dogs, he is my rock. I can count on him.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I'll have to disagree with this statement! I think it's a behavioral issue, not a testicles issue.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't alter anything that didn't have medical reason to do so. I don't think you are an "average" pet owner and think you have the wherewithal to appropriately manage an intact male. But, it's your personal choice and it's great that you waited.


Funny then all the bad behaviors went away when the testicles did.  

However I am a average pet home and did not want to spend all my time "managing" an intact male.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I personally have seen two dogs with a bad turn around from being neutered. DA dog became more DA and the same for the FA dog. 

In no way do I think that my intact male is a 'jerk'. I do, however, find the majority of the neutered males that came in for doggy daycare in the last 6 years that I've worked in animal care, completely out of control. I had more humping, dominance, aggresion and marking problems with neutered males than intact. 

Funny that my intact male has also never once marked in my house. And that he trialed for his BH with a female in heat and passed. Or that he can go to the park with 2 other intact males and play without a problem. Or that I've never seen him hump anything in the almost 3 years that he's been alive.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> However I am a average pet home and did not want to spend all my time "managing" an intact male.


This is a fact. If you want to manage and train your days away, that's fine. 
Most homes just do not.

And if your dogs did become leg lifters, or even if they do it and you aren't telling us about it in your non-neuter zeal, you love it and will work with it.
That doesn't help the thousands who will die because 1) nobody neutered them and 2) nobody trained them like a responsible owner ought to, and 3) nobody loves this dog, who is not even theirs yet, enough to work with it so it won't do those disgusting boy things all over the house. 

For the _average pet home_, neuter and spay are always recommended, or should be.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

chelle, since your boy is a older than a young puppy, I imagine, or at least at the clinic we do, use inside disolveable sutures, then glue on the outside, so there is a double lay closure and no stitches to remove.
When they are healing, the stitches get loose and tend to catch easily on the hair, carpet, etc and bug the heck out of the dogs. That is why we do a double closure.
Also, even at 1 1/2 years, the incision should be right in front of the scrotum and about 1- 1 1/2 inch long, not any longer. Just big enough to "squeeze" the testicles through one at a time(they are very pliable). Do not let your vet remove the sack as it seems some vets do. This is an unnecessary procedure, the sack will eventually become very small and not visable under the hair.There might be some swelling but to be honest, if the dog leaves it alone, it will go down quickly. 
I have neutered mature Bernese Mountain Dogs and Dobermans with no ecollar usage, if done without a huge incision, pulling or rough surgery, the incision is so small and "barely there" most dogs will leave it alone with a quick word or two if they even look between their legs.
Good luck.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> And while I might even agree with you. My statement will remain *"the average pet owner does not want to deal with this"*!
> 
> And people in the general public should not be encouraged to leave their boys intact.


 Totally agree. That was never my point or issue. If you are an above average pet owner and you can appropriately manage your dog (and chelle has in the last year and few months that she has had Bailey), why shouldn't she continue to leave him intact? I agree that shelters/rescues should spay/neuter and the general pubic can't be trusted to properly monitor intact animals. My point was about chelle's specific case, and what I would do were I in her shoes. 



shepherdmom said:


> Funny then all the bad behaviors went away when the testicles did.
> 
> However I am a average pet home and did not want to spend all my time "managing" an intact male.


I don't care what you do with your animals. Like I said, it's a personal choice and you should base your decision on your specific goals/needs. I simply voice _my_ view on the subject, and what I would do if I were in this position. If neutering worked out well for you, kudos and it's good your decision was the right one for your situation. 



Lilie said:


> If a person is getting their dog altered to correct a behavior problem, they are going to be very disappointed.


Yes, this is my point. People are too quick to recommend neutering as a cure-all for a behavioral/training issue.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

The way this argument is being made makes it look like "before we actually have to put any effort or work on behavioral problems, let's take the easier road and neuter him first just to see if anything changes."

And then what happens if nothing changes? Back to training? Which easily would have been the first option rather than the surgery. Chelle knows what she's doing. She's been here a while and has done a fantastic job with her pups. She's not an 'average pet home.'

And also I'm not talking about rescues where these dogs are being fostered and trying to be adopted out. That's different. I'm talking about owners who think neutering will cure behavioral problems. A dog who humps and marks sounds to me like a badly trained dog, not necessarily an intact one. If you own that dog, you need to take responsibility for its training and behavior. Problems and all. Not just jump to neutering to try and take the easy way out.

And I don't have to manage and train my life away for this dog in particular because he's intact. I do it for all of my dogs because I am a responsible owner and that is what my dogs deserve.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, many of the reasons were quite superficial since he's a mixed breed and we don't even know what dad was, you may not get a "more masculine" looking dog, and unless it's a purebred in the ring, it really doesn't matter what it "looks like". 
I think she's gained about all the health benefits to be had by leaving him intact this long anyway?
If she plans to neuter anyway, get it over and done with, and perhaps some of those nasty boy behaviors won't develop :shrug: 



> owners who think neutering will cure behavioral problems.


Coupled with training, yes I believe it does. It often makes boys more tractable


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Honestly, I don't know why this is even a discussion. This is a mixed-breed pet, not a working dog, not a competition dog. I can't think of a reason NOT to neuter, and ASAP if he's starting to act like a jerk. Health concerns, at this age? Minimal, and I don't see how waiting 2 or 3 months is going to make it any better.

I know this board is largely anti-neuter, but even so, most replies in this thread have been pro-neuter--what does that tell ya?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Honestly, I don't know why this is even a discussion. This is a mixed-breed pet, not a working dog, not a competition dog. I can't think of a reason NOT to neuter, and ASAP if he's starting to act like a jerk. Health concerns, at this age? Minimal, and I don't see how waiting 2 or 3 months is going to make it any better.
> 
> I know this board is largely anti-neuter, but even so, most replies in this thread have been pro-neuter--what does that tell ya?


:thumbup:
Some folks are just entirely hung up on the testicle issue


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

> If she plans to neuter anyway, get it over and done with, and perhaps some of those nasty boy behaviors won't develop :shrug:


I do agree with this. And if my dog were mixed breed I'd probably consider it a little bit more than if he was PB. But if you are planning to have it done it in a two months or so, it definitely won't make a difference if you do it sooner rather than later.




> Some folks are just entirely hung up on the testicle issue


Definitely not hung up. But to say that my dog is a jerk because he's intact is ridiculous. He is more well behaved than most any neutered dog that I've ever met.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> The way this argument is being made makes it look like "before we actually have to put any effort or work on behavioral problems, let's take the easier road and neuter him first just to see if anything changes."


And what's wrong with that? I have seen many, many dogs pre and post neuter, and I have seen a remarkable turnaround in behavior in some cases. The average pet owner isn't a behaviorist, and in many cases, isn't willing to become one. So many dogs are dumped because of behavior problems. If neutering makes a difference, then the people are more likely to keep the dog. I don't see it as a bad thing. 

Of course you could argue that those people shouldn't own pets in the first place, but they do, and will continue to do so.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I might be misunderstanding something here. I don't think anybody is saying that the OP *shouldn't* neuter her dog. I think the attempt is being made (based on the thread's title) to state that having any dog altered won't fix a behavioral problem. Would it help? It could, I suppose - although it hasn't in my experiance. 

If I had a dog who was an escape artist, I would have that dog altered. Not to fix the behavior, but if I can't contain my dog then I need to make sure he/she doesn't produce offspring....because I'm not a breeder nor do I have breed quality dogs. My dog would still continue to attempt to escape. The lack of testicles won't change his mind. 

Having multiple sexed dogs who aren't altered would require major management. More than I'd intend to do. Having an intact female would require management during her season. Again, more than I'd intend to do, so I don't have an intact female. 

I've never experianced anything negative with having intact males. And I'm pretty old.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I'm talking about owners who think neutering will cure behavioral problems. A dog who humps and marks sounds to me like a badly trained dog, not necessarily an intact one. If you own that dog, you need to take responsibility for its training and behavior. Problems and all. Not just jump to neutering to try and take the easy way out.
> 
> And I don't have to manage and train my life away for this dog in particular because he's intact. I do it for all of my dogs because I am a responsible owner and that is what my dogs deserve.


I too am a responsible pet owner. I had two male dogs from the same litter just like Chelle. They were trained, they did obedience, and were wonderful family pets. Chelle asked for opinions I had a similar situation and I gave mine. Neutering worked and the two male littermates lived happily ever after. I don't happen to think Chelle is dealing with a behavioral problem it is a testosterone problem pure and simple. Get rid of the testosterone and the problem fades. My dogs deserved not to be managed for the rest of their lives. Why manage when they can live in peace and harmony?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> I too am a responsible pet owner. I had two male dogs from the same litter just like Chelle. They were trained, they did obedience, and were wonderful family pets. Chelle asked for opinions I had a similar situation and I gave mine. Neutering worked and the two male littermates lived happily ever after. I don't happen to think Chelle is dealing with a behavioral problem it is a testosterone problem pure and simple. Get rid of the testosterone and the problem fades. My dogs deserved not to be managed for the rest of their lives. Why manage when they can live in peace and harmony?


I have one intact dog and 2 altered. All of them still need to be managed. Not one any more than the others. I never said that Chelle shouldn't neuter her dog, but to make the generalization that neutering will end behavioral problems is ridiculous and to say that all intact male dogs are jerks is equally ridiculous.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Definitely not hung up. But to say that my dog is a jerk because he's intact is ridiculous. He is more well behaved than most any neutered dog that I've ever met.


I didn't say your uneutered dog was a jerk, I said my uneutered dog was a jerk. I had him neutered, problem solved. I wasn't trying to start a war just giving my own personal experience with 2 male littermates.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I have one intact dog and 2 altered. All of them still need to be managed. Not one any more than the others. I never said that Chelle shouldn't neuter her dog, but to make the generalization that neutering will end behavioral problems is ridiculous and to say that all intact male dogs are jerks is equally ridiculous.


You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. What you see as behavioral I see as a testosterone problem. Whatever eace:.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but to make the generalization that neutering will end behavioral problems is ridiculous


Who here has said "Neutering WILL END behavior problems"?
Nobody. Nobody is that naive.
But again you're reading what you want to into the posts.
Neutering will make the dog more tractable and easy to work with which will enhance his learning experiences and help him settle and blend more readily, than will leaving him intact.
And it just _may_ prevent some of the nasty "boy" behaviors we all hear about and see and for which dogs are readily and routinely given up.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sad to say but to me this is largely based on PB and not PB. This isn't a PB dog, and there is just no reason for it to still have mating ability. If this dog was rescued it wouldn't be intact, and most of us know where this dog came from and I have a feeling that that could've been avoided to (not saying you don't have two great dogs Chelle, but if you weren't willing to take the second one, there would be one more dog in a shelter right now).

I don't like to tell people to neuter their dogs since mine isn't and I don't feel like being a hypocrite. But too many times I've seen mixed breed dogs that aren't fixed and when I ask why the answer is usually "He's just such a great dog, he loves everyone" and it just sounds like they have the intention to make more (and I know this isn't the case here). With PB dogs, that are shown, or trialed, or anything like that, there is always a slim chance that dog might turn into something great, so why ruin it prematurely? In this case, with no intent to breed, and not really a possibility to either, why not just do it and make life easier for everyone?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If it's purebred and not of breeding quality, or a show/working dog, how would that differ from a mixed breed, though?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> If it's purebred and not of breeding quality, or a show/working dog, how would that differ from a mixed breed, though?


It wouldn't. But in my mind (hypocritical, I know) I think that mixed breeds should just be snipped. But in this situation, say the dog was PB and there was no showing/trialing and no intent to breed, I'd still suggest to neuter. I think that society gives a little more leeway to PB dogs being intact than it does to mixed breeds and I've just kind of gone with that flow.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah, okay.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Who here has said "Neutering WILL END behavior problems"?
> Nobody. Nobody is that naive.
> But again you're reading what you want to into the posts.
> Neutering will make the dog more tractable and easy to work with which will enhance his learning experiences and help him settle and blend more readily, than will leaving him intact.
> And it just _may_ prevent some of the nasty "boy" behaviors we all hear about and see and for which dogs are readily and routinely given up.


I'm not just reading what I want. I'm saying that if she chose to go that route, training alone could also be an optional way of fixing these problems. Neutering doesn't always have to be the end all be all and it doesn't always have to come along with the training as well.

With this being a mixed breed dog, I say to neuter anyways, behavioral problems or not. I'd do it just to decrease the risk of unwanted litters.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Neutering is not the "be all and end all", and nobody said it was, but it _does_ grease the wheels in the training department.
Get the hormones out of the equation and things go much more smoothly.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Neutering is not the "be all and end all", and nobody said it was, but it _does_ grease the wheels in the training department.
> Get the hormones out of the equation and things go much more smoothly.


Sometimes you just have to go with whatever advantages you can get  

It certainly can help in this instance, and can't hurt otherwise


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

When I was saying unneutered males are jerks, I meant that as a generalization, not as an absolute rule. And I certainly didn't mean that intact males are poorly behaved. Samson is wonderfully behaved and eager to please, but he can be a jerk at times. Much if it is definitively related to being intact, some less definitively but I strongly believe that's the root cause.

It's not some wild uncontrollable behavior, either (obviously, or he'd be neutered by now). It's still there though.

To be perfectly honest I think those hormones can give them more and better focus, so if they can handle having them, it's nice for the hormones to be there. Many dogs (or the combo of dog and owner) can't handle it though.

~

Oh, and I would consider myself well above the average dog owner, and I _still_ don't want to deal with those kinds of behaviors. If my next dog is intact I plan to leave him that way but I will be much less tolerant concerning the types of male behaviors I allow before bringing him in to be neutered. Like I said, I'm glad I waited with Samson, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to do that again.

~ 

Mixed breed/pure breed is irrelevant in my book. Breeding potential is a great reason to leave a dog intact (I don't ever plan to breed), but I would never give more weight to neutering a dog of mine just because he is of mixed breed.

~

Even if nothing changes in the behavior department, once he's neutered that gives you an easier platform to work with. I wish I would have bookmarked the paper, but basically testosterone causes "challenging" behaviors in a dog. In Samson they are very subtle but they are there. In Jake they were very prominent. Sort of..."so, why should I listen to you again?" attitude. Not quite so belligerent, that phrasing implies intent by the dog. It's just a natural way of acting due to hormones.

Left alone to their own devices, male dogs make horrible pets. You can either train or neuter or both to overcome this. Sometimes one or the other is sufficient (training was enough with Samson), sometimes you need both. It's important to give consideration to the individual, but also important not to get hung on on ideology that you remove the possibility of one. That's where I used to be, I'm glad I'm not there now.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Where to start...

I made a decision to delay neutering. It all started with this mess: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/165095-age-neutering.html

My decision was based on what I felt was the best, most healthy choice for my dog. Call me vain, but I also wasn't thrilled with the possibility he may grow overly tall and lanky, ie, match-stick legs. 



msvette2u said:


> - but, he's a mixed breed and you really don't have to worry about his looks


Why not? He's my dog. He'll share my life for (hopefully) a great many years. Why wouldn't his physical appearance matter at all?

I knew I would properly contain him. I knew he would not be allowed to roam. Not be allowed to impregnate. I knew I would train him. I knew I would deal with whatever behaviors might come up, and always put neutering on the back burner in case the behaviors were more than I could "train out."

Didn't turn out to be the case.

He doesn't mark in the house. Did so once or twice, hard SHUT down, no problem ever since and that was months ago. Incidentally, his neutered brother did the same once or twice and same thing. (Granted, his brother was not housetrained when he came here.)

He shows no desire to escape, although he is rarely unsupervised outside more than minutes. 

He isn't particularly difficult. He licks female pee. He would like to sniff girl butts, but that isn't allowed. 

He does not hump. He tried that about 2-3 times and once again, hard shutdown. Was never repeated.

The reason for this post was him being a bossy butt just lately. Resource guarding, really.

I just wanted to state those things, as it has somewhat been overdone in what I'm dealing with. I'm not particularly stressed. It isn't *that* hard. Some sexual behaviors presented themselves, I was right there, I made it stop -- the end. Now had it continued in spite of my corrections? Maybe I'd think differently. Yet, that was not the case.

Thank you to those who responded about the gluing. Sounded quite promising, but I'm sure not enthused about the glue giving way. Ix-nay that.



qbchottu said:


> Perhaps it has nothing to do with being intact, but I like his intensity, vigor and moxy. Personally, I wouldn't risk losing that spark by neutering. Maybe it's a jealousy/dominance issue and not a "male" issue?


I must admit, I like the intensity. Whatever we are doing, he is in 1000% percent. Sorry to toot our horn, but he has excelled in Obedience class, I think, because of that intensity. 

Most definitely there is jealousy there. They both want me and my attention. I have learned how to diffuse this. Dual obedience. Redirect the focus. Don't let it ramp up. I'm learning. It's fascinating, actually.



llombardo said:


> I believe in neutering period. I personally do it when they are younger and always have....yes all the dogs lived 12-14 years with no major issues *I don't believe they lose any intensity/focus in training whether they are neutered or not*.* And none of them ever lost their spark either.* Its a personal choice, but you are very close to the point you were going to do it anyway and *he is a mixed breed which usually presents less health issues anyways*


I respect you believe as you do, but you say you've always speutered early, so how would you have *any* means to compare??? Not sure about your last statement, as far as mixed breed presenting less health issues? 

*wyominggrandma*, thanks for the medical info. Extremely helpful.



martemchik said:


> Sad to say but to me this is largely based on PB and not PB. This isn't a PB dog, and there is *just no reason for it to still have mating ability*. If this dog was rescued it wouldn't be intact, and *most of us know where this dog came from* and *I have a feeling that that could've been avoided* to (not saying you don't have two great dogs Chelle, but if you weren't willing to take the second one, there would be one more dog in a shelter right now)....


Mmmm. Not fair. Why can't my mixed dog have the full benefit, healthwise, of waiting?

Anyone's purebred dog can jump a fence and impregnate a mutt.

Just to be crystal clear on "where this dog came from." This dog came from my irresponsible (then 21) year old son, who lived APART from me, in his *own* home, and he chose to get a male dog that he *chose* to not neuter. This breeding did *NOT* happen under *MY* roof. 



msvette2u said:


> Neutering is not the "be all and end all", and nobody said it was, but it _does_ grease the wheels in the training department. Get the hormones out of the equation and things go much more smoothly.


Training is not the issue. Training is going extremely well really. He's been thru beginning OB twice, Intermediate and is starting Advanced next week. Just got his CGC recently. 



Draugr said:


> ...*It's not some wild uncontrollable behavior*, either (obviously, or he'd be neutered by now). It's still there though.
> 
> 
> *To be perfectly honest I think those hormones can give them more and better focus, so if they can handle having them, it's nice for the hormones to be there.* Many dogs (or the combo of dog and owner) can't handle it though.
> ...


I liked that post a lot. Really nailed it. Can Bailey be a little stubborn and try to ignore me sometimes? Sure. But I'm an annoying mama and I don't let him ignore me. I'm on top of every single thing he does. He has not been difficult to "control," but I can see how, to the average person who just wants a pet dog, that he could be a terror and they could easily rush to neuter. He is indeed a stronger personality and being intact feeds that most likely. But, at the end of the day, it is not a huge stressor to me. It is not more than I am willing to deal with. He actually puts up with a TON of guff from his brother, who IS neutered. 

Anyway...

Bottom line on what I've learned here. 

--Since I knew his future plan was being neutered, doing so 4+ months ahead of time isn't a big deal.

--Neutering is not an end all, be all solution. It may make him more docile, it may not, but making him "more docile" wasn't my intent. 

--I may quite readily be able to train out the bossy nonsense thru training and management. Time will tell. I'll be waiting for any escalation in behavior. I'll keep my neuter appt for now.

On a last note, I think Mr Bails took quite the hit here.  He's laying here at my feet right now, not knowing there is an intention to chop off his male parts in the near future. I have no particular love for his male parts. I just love him as he is. He is high energy, high focus, high intensity and highly devoted to me. He *loves* to work. When I ask him, "Ok! Ready to work?" his butt wiggles and he whines, he is just soooo READY. He just cannot wait for the command. I've never seen such crazy eagerness in a dog. I... LIKE... it.!!!!!!!!!! 

Don't mean to ramble. Thanks for the input.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Why wouldn't his physical appearance matter at all?


Well genetics play a larger role than hormones - he's reached his potential so to speak, and the testosterone won't just drop immediately. It will wane for 6-8 weeks post neuter. So you're good there.

But more importantly...genetics does play a larger role in appearance, and you really don't even know what mix he is! So being worried about looks...if you wanted a "masculine" looking "GSD" looking dog, you may be disappointed. To me he looks much more slender (hence, feminine) than his brother who is already neutered. I'd have a hard time telling, from just his head, if he was M or F. Especially alongside the brother. 
So keeping him intact for him to...what, look more masculine? Kind of moot.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> I respect you believe as you do, but you say you've always speutered early, so how would you have *any* means to compare??? Not sure about your last statement, as far as mixed breed presenting less health issues?


I know how my dogs behaved before and after, nothing really ever changed after the surgery I've been around many dogs of different breeds that are fixed and not fixed. For example my male golden compared to some I have seen in his age bracket is no different then a male that isn't neutered. In fact I'd have to say mine is more outgoing, friendly, very eager to learn then most. He still has the same drive, focus, etc...nothing changed when he was fixed. Its the same thing with my female GSD. I have watched others that are the same age as her(fixed and not fixed), the only difference I have seen is the calmness. Both of my dogs mentioned are VERY calm, non destructive dogs that love to learn(Both did very well in three-four obedience classes and CGC). As far as as the mixed breed comment... Generally mixed breed dogs do not have many of the health issues that they would have if they were all one breed. Certain health issues are more prone in certain pure breeds, once that dog is mixed with another breed(especially not one prone to the same health issue) it decreases the chances of the dog having that health issue. I think Hips are a good example, I'm sure mixed breed dogs can have HD, but no where near as many pure bred dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If neutering made dogs fat and lazy or non-motivated, I'd love my super OCD Dachshund Conan. He was neutered the day before we arrived to adopt him!!
We accidentally named him Conan without once realizing he just might live up to his destructive namesake 
And we're still in shock and awe almost daily!!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Well genetics play a larger role than hormones - he's reached his potential so to speak, and the testosterone won't just drop immediately. It will wane for 6-8 weeks post neuter. So you're good there.
> 
> But more importantly...genetics does play a larger role in appearance, and you really don't even know what mix he is! So being worried about looks...if you wanted a "masculine" looking "GSD" looking dog, you may be disappointed. To me he looks much more slender (hence, feminine) than his brother who is already neutered. I'd have a hard time telling, from just his head, if he was M or F. Especially alongside the brother.
> So keeping him intact for him to...what, look more masculine? Kind of moot.


Please don't misunderstand me. It is no longer about appearance. I think he looks terrific. He has filled out. He is no longer a gangly long-legged boy. He is now nice, thick and muscled. Athletic. That is not by accident. That is a result of finally finding a good diet that added some pounds. That is the result of lots of exercise.  I know I'm bragging, but it is in at least some part, the result of lots of work.

I don't really care whether he looks like a girl or boy -- I care only that he looks -- and IS -- a healthy dog.

As far as his brother.. his brother may appear more masculine perhaps, but his brother has little muscle mass. His brother cannot even begin to keep up with Bailey in terms of exercise. Poor guy gets quite winded and parks at the back door, while Bailey is like the Energizer bunny. Appearances aside, intact vs neutered aside, Tucker is not very fit. He dropped a stupid amount of weight in a short time once he started getting Bailey's amount of exercise. I'm working hard to put weight back on him actually.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> That is a result of finally finding a good diet that added some pounds. That is the result of lots of exercise. I know I'm bragging, but it is in at least some part, the result of lots of work.


:thumbup:
Our most muscular/masculine dog was neutered as a puppy. Either he had hormone "memory" or his parents gave him those genetics.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> Please don't misunderstand me. It is no longer about appearance. I think he looks terrific. He has filled out. He is no longer a gangly long-legged boy. He is now nice, thick and muscled. Athletic. That is not by accident. That is a result of finally finding a good diet that added some pounds. That is the result of lots of exercise. I know I'm bragging, but it is in at least some part, the result of lots of work.
> 
> I don't really care whether he looks like a girl or boy -- I care only that he looks -- and IS -- a healthy dog.
> 
> As far as his brother.. his brother may appear more masculine perhaps, but his brother has little muscle mass. His brother cannot even begin to keep up with Bailey in terms of exercise. Poor guy gets quite winded and parks at the back door, while Bailey is like the Energizer bunny. Appearances aside, intact vs neutered aside, Tucker is not very fit. He dropped a stupid amount of weight in a short time once he started getting Bailey's amount of exercise. I'm working hard to put weight back on him actually.



I think any dog you have will be healthy because you care enough to feed a good diet, give them exercise, and you socialize them. You really can't go wrong when you do things the Chelle way


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I know how my dogs behaved before and after, nothing really ever changed after the surgery I've been around many dogs of different breeds that are fixed and not fixed. For example my male golden compared to some I have seen in his age bracket is no different then a male that isn't neutered. In fact I'd have to say mine is more outgoing, friendly, very eager to learn then most. He still has the same drive, focus, etc...nothing changed when he was fixed. Its the same thing with my female GSD. I have watched others that are the same age as her(fixed and not fixed), the only difference I have seen is the calmness. Both of my dogs mentioned are VERY calm, *non destructive dogs* that love to learn(Both did very well in three-four obedience classes and CGC). As far as as the mixed breed comment... *Generally mixed breed dogs do not have many of the health issues that they would have if they were all one breed.* Certain health issues are more prone in certain pure breeds, once that dog is mixed with another breed(especially not one prone to the same health issue) it decreases the chances of the dog having that health issue. I think Hips are a good example, I'm sure mixed breed dogs can have HD, but no where near as many pure bred dogs.


I understand you are completely pro-speuter. That's fine. 

I'm sorry, I can't buy the arguement with how your dogs were before vs _after_. Too many other issues at play. Simple maturation, for one.

My intact male is the most non-destructive dog I've owned. I left him out alone in the house one day and he did tear up the carpet trying to get into the bedroom because his buddy Suri was in there. That's the extent of his destruction. He has never chewed woodwork, floor, furniture, anything. Ever. Impressive. 

My spayed females are a differnt story - at least when they were young. Everything had to be put up high. I've never had to do that with Bailey. He just doesn't mess with things. He only needs to be told once, maybe twice. Heck, he has never once gotten into the garbage and that is right there in the kitchen. My spayed females sure have. I've never had a *single item* of mine destroyed by Bailey. If he got something he wasn't supposed to, he was told NO and it was replaced with a toy or whatever and praised. It has just been that easy with him.

I must admit I've grown weary of the:

Intact = poorly behaved = aggressive = difficult = timebomb

VS

Altered = wonderful = easy going = more trainable = calm

stuff.

I really hate "all or none" type equations like the above. Honestly, from this point on, I don't think I'm going to listen to anyone with an all or one stance that doesn't take into account the owner, the future goals and the ability/dedication to management.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I think any dog you have will be healthy because you care enough to feed a good diet, give them exercise, and you socialize them. You really can't go wrong when you do things the Chelle way


You are just crazy.  And I am just tired. :shocked: What can I say, I have no life. I obsess about my dogs. :crazy:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> You are just crazy.  And I am just tired. :shocked: What can I say, I have no life. I obsess about my dogs. :crazy:


I would call it dedication and it would really be nice if everyone that owned dogs showed half of the dedication that you do


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have a very sweet intact male. I'm sorry if you're reading into my posts that intact = aggressive, etc.
I don't think it necessarily does - although judging from the shelters burgeoning with intact animals, yes, there's _something_ going on.

All I ever picked up was intact pets. 
Now - which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Chances are - if an owner doesn't care about it enough to neuter/spay, they won't care enough to keep it on their property. Sure sure, take that sentence out of context if ya want (I'm sure some will). I'll add an "and vise versa" to be clear. 

But it does take an above average owner to own an intact pet.
And you are above average. Most here are.
Some aren't, as we've seen, and oopsies occur.

Thing is - out there (general public) most are not above average. Therefore, they should alter their pets, and obviously they are not. 
Again I refer to the hundreds of comments per year about "male behaviors".

To me - it matters not which it is, poor ownership or hormones - neutering's going to help. It just will, and it does. As others (in rescue) have said, we deal with adult intact pets all the time and never have any failed to improve a boy's behavior. Sometimes negligibly but improve, it does. You just have to live through it enough times to notice it when it happens.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

There are three male dogs in this picture. Please pick out the one you think we waited to neuter.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

No takers? The male on the left as your looking at the picture, my Buddy was neutered the youngest. The old male in the middle Duffy was neutered next youngest (BTW he had a thyroid issue and we were trying to get his meds correct which is why he looks so fat in that picture) and the male on the right Buddys littermate Shadow was not neutered until after 1 year. I think Buddy looks more masculine than the two who were neutered younger. And on the ends are my females who were both spayed at around 6 months. I don't like females to go into their first heat. BTW even though Buddy looks more masculine Shadow had the more masculine personality. Buddy would roll for the female on the right. She would lift her leg and was very dominate, while Buddy now 10 still hasn't lifted his leg. Somehow I don't think he ever will.  

BTW I'm mentioning this because I don't think waiting changes the looks... it does however change IMO their personality a little bit. I like the way Shadows personality grew with waiting (right up to the point where he turned into a jerk. LOL).


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> We have a very sweet intact male. I'm sorry if you're reading into my posts that intact = aggressive, etc.
> I don't think it necessarily does - although judging from the shelters burgeoning with intact animals, yes, there's _something_ going on.
> 
> All I ever picked up was intact pets.
> ...


But this isn't a discussion about some average dog owner somewhere. It is about ME and MY DOG! ME ME ME! All about ME! :rofl:

Bailey will not impregnate anything. He doesn't get the chance. This point will be moot in a matter of weeks.





shepherdmom said:


> There are three male dogs in this picture. Please pick out the one you think we waited to neuter.


I have no idea. I'm going to say.... female, male, female, male, male from left to right... I'd say it is #2 from left you waited on.. but I bet you end up telling me #4. Now, how terribly off was I? 



llombardo said:


> I would call it dedication and it would really be nice if everyone that owned dogs showed half of the dedication that you do


 
Thank you. Honestly, thank you. So kind for you to say that.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Have you gotten the book Mine by Jean Donaldson?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> But this isn't a discussion about some average dog owner somewhere. It is about ME and MY DOG! ME ME ME! All about ME! :rofl:
> 
> I have no idea. I'm going to say.... female, male, female, male, male from left to right... I'd say it is #2 from left you waited on.. but I bet you end up telling me #4. Now, how terribly off was I?


:spittingcoffee: It is all about you & Bailey Chelle.  

Pretty good guess Buddy is #2 Shadow is #4. Shadow is the one I waited to neuter. Duffy (Boxer mixed with stupid is in the middle).


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> :spittingcoffee: It is all about you & Bailey Chelle.
> 
> Pretty good guess Buddy is #2 Shadow is #4. Shadow is the one I waited to neuter. Duffy (Boxer mixed with stupid is in the middle).


I didn't do quite as bad as I thought! 

Boxer missed with stupid, haha. I won't tell Duffy you said that.

But you are right, I would've picked Shadow as the early neuter. I knew, though, there had to be a trick there.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> I didn't do quite as bad as I thought!
> 
> Boxer missed with stupid, haha. I won't tell Duffy you said that.
> 
> But you are right, I would've picked Shadow as the early neuter. I knew, though, there had to be a trick there.


That picture is many years old now. It is one of my favorites and I think it really illustrates that waiting on neutering doesn't make a dog look all that more masculine. I guess its kind of interesting that Buddy the earliest neuter has outlived them all. Of course Duffy and Xena (female on right) were both really old when that picture was taken.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Have you gotten the book Mine by Jean Donaldson?


I missed this post somehow. No, I haven't heard of that book.



shepherdmom said:


> That picture is many years old now. It is one of my favorites and I think it really illustrates that waiting on neutering doesn't make a dog look all that more masculine. I guess its kind of interesting that Buddy the earliest neuter has outlived them all. Of course Duffy and Xena (female on right) were both really old when that picture was taken.


In terms of appearance, it really wasn't so much about masculine as it was about the possible extra height and gangly look. It really doesn't matter at this point. He seems to be thru that phase and all signs are pointing to neuter.

That is a great pic. Wonderful pack.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> In terms of appearance, it really wasn't so much about masculine as it was about the possible extra height and gangly look. It really doesn't matter at this point. He seems to be thru that phase and all signs are pointing to neuter.
> 
> That is a great pic. Wonderful pack.


Thanks.  We waited on Shadow because we did want the more masculine look, I find it funny that Buddy who is the biggest baby on the planet actually looked the most intimidating.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I didn't guess because it was hard to say based on the angle of the photo. If I had to guess I would have said #2 from the left, or the furthest to the right though. Usually I need to see a different angle with the dog standing (to see how long the legs are) or the dog to move to tell. Great looking pack though .

That said Samson, intact at 2.5 years, still has very little muscle mass (his frame is STILL growing!!!) and Jake, neutered at 15 months of age, had rippling muscle mass.

He's lost most of it to fat, now, but that's because he doesn't get much exercise and has been overfed for quite awhile. I'm not sure if he could ever gain it back though. Without testosterone it is much more difficult to put on muscle mass. Not impossible, but very difficult relatively speaking.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> But this isn't a discussion about some average dog owner somewhere. It is about ME and MY DOG! ME ME ME! All about ME!


True dat 

But I hate for newbie owners to come on and be given the blanket "keep them intact for 18mos. blahblahblah". Seriously. I hate that.
Nobody can assume a person is that responsible...and if they have to ask, they are probably not that responsible! 

We should just tell them to listen to their vet, since the vet will most likely know them and their living situation (and their pet's health) better than we can


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am almost afraid to post.

Ok. I admit it. I did not read all the pages. 

But since you asked, I will throw in my two pennies:

Neuter. If you want the dogs to live together without any problems, and you haven't raised both from puppy on up, and you are either not equiped to or willing to keep the dogs separate if necessary, then neuter to prevent problems down the road. 

I am not saying there will be same-sex/dominance issues, but they are littermates, which puts them the same age, and possibly power. Just because one is the obvious choice on the dominance scale at this point, does not mean a surgery or injury down the road might not give the less dominant one the opening to make his claim. Neutering may not make a complete difference, but I think it is a component in pack dynamics. 

Now, if that has all been said already, I am sorry.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Now, if that has all been said already, I am sorry.
> __________________


Well, it was, but not as succinctly


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Draugr said:


> I didn't guess because it was hard to say based on the angle of the photo. If I had to guess I would have said #2 from the left, or the furthest to the right though. Usually I need to see a different angle with the dog standing (to see how long the legs are) or the dog to move to tell. Great looking pack though .


Thanks I miss them all so much. It is a very old picture. Buddy is the only one not yet waiting at the bridge. As you've probably already seen from my other posts Buddy second from the left was the one neutered the youngest. The dog furthest to the right, the aussie mix, was a very dominate female.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> True dat
> 
> But I hate for newbie owners to come on and be given the blanket "keep them intact for 18mos. blahblahblah". Seriously. I hate that.
> Nobody can assume a person is that responsible...and if they have to ask, they are probably not that responsible!
> ...


I understand where you are coming from. Not completely, because I don't see what you do on a daily basis, but I "get it" as much as an outsider can. 



selzer said:


> I am almost afraid to post.
> 
> Ok. I admit it. I did not read all the pages.
> 
> ...


You funny girl, you are not afraid. :rofl: And no need to be sorry. I really want all the input I can possibly get. This really matters to me.

Welll since you missed it,,,  ,,, I'll just say I am keeping the appt that is set a few weeks from now. Could I change my mind yet again? Sure. I am female so I reserve that right. 

Funniest thing is really that if you were to watch these two dogs together, you'd say Tucker (neutered) is almost always the instigator. He loves Bailey and wants his attention, so he often just goes to chew on some part of Bailey's anatomy until he gets the attention he wants. Then he runs... does the "look back" -- (are you chasing me yet?) stuff. Every day. It is so interesting to watch these two. This is not where the issues are. Bailey will reciprocate most of the time, but if he is busy sniffing or just not wanting bothered, he may snarl at Tuck. Tuck just backs off then. 

Tucker had never had any dog contact before he got here, and then he had to learn dynamics with three dogs. (Another reason I'm a fan of the 2 week shutdown, as coming into a home with this many dogs, when he'd never been around any dogs, was a pretty big deal.)

Tucker's doggy behavior borders on fairly rude.  I really think Bailey has taught him a lot here. Bailey is a very dog friendly dog, but even he can only take so much.



shepherdmom said:


> Thanks I miss them all so much. It is a very old picture. Buddy is the only one not yet waiting at the bridge. As you've probably already seen from my other posts Buddy second from the left was the one neutered the youngest. The dog furthest to the right, the aussie mix, was a very dominate female.


Give Buddy a nice slobbery kiss, please.


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