# May Have To Euthanise Human Aggressive 6-Month-Old



## piquant

As some of you may be aware from my previous thread (http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...8-5-month-old-fear-aggressive-protective.html), I have a fear aggressive (now) 6-month-old GSD. 

We’ve consulted two respected behaviourists, one of whom is very experienced with GSDs (he even owns a stud dog) and aggressive dogs. They’ve evaluated our dog (one of the behaviourists met him on two separate occasions) and have advised us that he is an unsuitable pet dog and cannot be trusted due to his instability. 

Our options are to either rehome home, although we’ve been told that it’s highly unlikely that anyone will adopt him due to his severe behavioural problems, or euthanise him. Both of the behaviourists raised the possibility of undertaking further training with him (one said that it would take around 12 months to see any improvement), but they stressed that no amount of time, work, effort, money, etc. will ever make him a trustworthy and stable dog; he will always remain a huge liability that we have to stay on top of 24/7. 

I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to seek advice here. I’m hoping that there are some members who have been in a similar position and can guide me. 

I still have hope in my dog, even though I’ve been told time and time again that it will always be a case of two steps forward, three steps back with him. At the same time, I know his limitations and my limitations. But, I love him and the thought of putting him down is tearing me up inside. I’m just at a loss for what to do. Each day, I decide on one course of action and then change my mind. 

If I lived in a remote area on a big block of land or in the country on a farm, I could keep him without worrying too much about the risk that he poses to others or changing my lifestyle too drastically. He could run free on my property and live a life with some quality. But, I live in a high density area and have a small backyard, so I have to walk/ exercise him in public.


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## CeCe

I don't think you should put him down-he's too young to be a lost cause. You need to get him evaluated by an experienced schutzhund trainer who understands this breed. I read your other thread and he doesn't sound that bad to me, although he may not be suited to a pet home. You can always send him back to the breeder.


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## warpwr

Dogs can always be rehabilitated and especially puppies.
We never consider death a solution.

Best Friends in Utah for one example is a no kill facility and they even worked with Michael Vick's pit bulldogs. Some have found forever homes too....
http://www.bestfriends.org/vickdogs/
http://network.bestfriends.org/grou...some-of-the-rescued-dogs-at-best-friends.aspx


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## msvette2u

What state are you in?


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## Mooch

The OP is in Australia
Unfortunately the dog laws in our state are VERY strict. 
If her dog happens to hurt anyone or anything it's pretty much a death sentence and a huge $ fine for the owner. If he has even a small incident he will have to be listed on the "dangerous dog" register which requires a high Viz collar on the dog at all times as well as other regulations.
Schutzhund training is forbidden here as well, we cannot legally use prong collars and to use an e collar for training requires a written letter from the Vet and you get a 6 month "license" to use one then have to be reevaluated.
We have a few people that train Protection/Security dogs but they have to be licensed Security guards, the average person is not able to own a dog with that kind of training.

I'm just pointing this out so you guys get a better idea of how difficult the situation is and get a bit of background info.


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## Twyla

I have a 2 yr old male that a previous vet and a few trainers recommended to be pts at about the same age as yours due to the same general reasons, to unstable, will always be a liability. We also live in a neighborhood, kids, dogs etc. To be honest, we did consider it. That was a heartbreaking time because we knew how he was with us and our other dog. We chose to see it through, understanding that he would always have to be managed, that he is a liability. _I am not suggesting the same for you simply because you have to choose to do what is right for you and your circumstances._

Through a few false starts with trainers, we finally found a behaviorist that has worked hand in hand with us and Woolf. Woolf is FA DA/ha sometimes. With training for Woolf and us, us learning his signals, the type people that can really set him off, Woolf is now able to meet people. We are still definitely working on the dog aggression.

For most not all dogs, training can help. It takes a huge commitment and realization of what the limitations are. Willingness on the part of the behaviorist and owner to step outside the accepted training methods and find what works. Medications in addition to training can help improve the dog as well.

If you choose to continue training your dog, basket muzzles are a must. Whatever collar you use, have a back up collar. 

You are welcome to pm me if you would like.


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## JakodaCD OA

I can't tell you what to do.

I can suggest a few things,

1. I would never rehome this dog, he could be someone else's or your liability should you do so.

2. If you want to keep him, you are going to have to except him for what he is, learn the triggers , diffuse them BEFORE they happen.

3. On leash at ALL times. 

I see from some of your other postings he's been in some situations where he should not have been, on the side of the road(?) no reactions to passerbys who would give him a pat? WHY would you allow that when you know he's unpredictable? How would you have stopped a 'bite' if he chose to?

He's charged/lunged at people, STOP it before it happens. This type of behavior could very well escalate at some point with a bite.

The last straw was the post i saw where he bit the trainer's leg and went bonkers afterwards?

I honestly don't mean to sound harsh or am condemning you in anyway, but you need to know this dog could be a potential ticking time bomb and really do some damage.

He needs less freedom and more control from you. I agree you'll probably never be able to trust him but he can be managed which has to come from you. 

You need to be on him 24/7 , thoroughly aware of your surroundings, his potential, his limitations and always under your control..

I know he's young, and I do believe dogs like this can be managed, I think you need to find a trainer/behaviorist who knows what they are doing and can help YOU deal with him.

Again, I am not condemning nor do I mean to sound harsh..Good luck I truly hope you can get some help


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## Mrs.K

Mooch said:


> The OP is in Australia
> Unfortunately the dog laws in our state are VERY strict.
> If her dog happens to hurt anyone or anything it's pretty much a death sentence and a huge $ fine for the owner. If he has even a small incident he will have to be listed on the "dangerous dog" register which requires a high Viz collar on the dog at all times as well as other regulations.
> Schutzhund training is forbidden here as well, we cannot legally use prong collars and to use an e collar for training requires a written letter from the Vet and you get a 6 month "license" to use one then have to be reevaluated.
> We have a few people that train Protection/Security dogs but they have to be licensed Security guards, the average person is not able to own a dog with that kind of training.
> 
> I'm just pointing this out so you guys get a better idea of how difficult the situation is and get a bit of background info.


Since when is it forbidden to do Schutzhund?
Schutzhund Australia
Working German Shepherd Dogsport Clubs of Australasia, schutzhund, ipo, australia

However, it does sound a nightmare to own a dog in Australia.


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## glinny

Please don't think about rehoming him to a farm where he can run. We live on a 180 acre farm and we are 1/2 mile from the road. Effie runs free a lot and never leaves the area around the buildings. But what will you do when the mailman/UPS driver/ neighbor/lost person happens to show up in your yard. Effie barks to let us know someone is here and then is happy to greet them. What will your dog do when a stranger comes into the yard? It sounds like he will need constant training and supervision the rest of his life. If you think this is something you can do get a good trainer to help you. Only you know if you are capable of keeping this dog that you love.


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## Mooch

Mrs K Yes there are clubs doing SchH in AUS - but not in the state of Victoria, you will find clubs that do the obedience and tracking no worries but not bite work (well you can probably find some that will do that but not openly) 
Dangerous Dogs - Department of Primary Industries 
Menacing Dogs - Department of Primary Industries just in case you're interested in how strict the "dangerous dog" laws are.

It's not a nightmare to own a dog at all as long as you do the right thing and are aware of the rules  But yes owning an aggressive dog is a nightmare.
We also have a stupid BSL that allows council rangers to seize dogs that have been visually identified as pitblull or pitt-cross and have them PTS. There has been lots of protests over that recently.


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## GatorBytes

Have you consider this may be medical and not behavioural?

Namely the rabies vaccine.

Many things you can do like homeopathic detox
Remove grains and carbs re: spike insulin levels
Melatonin Re: seratonin and dopamine
Ashwaganda for the adrenals/thyroid
Kelp for the thyroid

Another post on thread recently (I think was in seniors), mentions successfully using melatonin for behavioural issues...

Although I think in Australia you have limited access to natural supplimentation (like ashwaganda)..can you get homepathic modalities?

Can you find a Holistic Vet to script?


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## MaggieRoseLee

I 'm sorry if I missed it but what does the breeder recommend and how did the rest of the litter turn out?

Hate to give up on a 6 month old puppy...

Have you read The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell? There may be some help there.

dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding

Hey, she's going to be in Australia in October! Jan Fennell the Dog Listener :: Amichien Bonding :: Educational Courses

aw:


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## GatorBytes

Rabies Miasm...facebook link, below may help to understand
Understanding Thunderstorm Anxiety and RABIES MIASM | Facebook

Please note that this in no way means treatment in lieu of training....but calming so training can be effective and possible repairing of neuro damage...



*This means that many pets today have symptoms of the rabies miasm and these include the actual, though milder, symptoms of the rabies virus. Since it is a disease that affects the Limbic system of the brain, which controls the emotions, anxiety, fear and escalating aggression*, as well as oversensitivity to sound, all can appear as extreme reactions to thunderstorms. Also a symptom is obsessive or repetitive behaviour and seizure activity which are thought to be memory pathways in the brain, therefore interrupting the behaviour with a remedy, a Thundershirt or meaningful distractions (for milder cases such as treats, enticing chew bones etc) are more beneficial the earlier the syndrome is noticed, the better since once the pathway is formed in the brain, it is easier and easier for the brain to "travel" that way again and the behaviours escalate. The homeopathic remedy for a rabies miasm is called Hydrophobinum, meaning "fear of water", which is also a specific symptom of Rabies. (What follows thunder? rain) 
A website with a WEALTH of other Vaccination references is @*Animal Care: Vaccination Issues* including the website of the internationally reknowned Dr. Jean Dodds DVM @*Home*, a co-contributor to the Rabies Challenge with Dr. Ron Schultz DVM. (Read more about it by LIKE ing the FB page *The Rabies Challenge Fund)*


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## GatorBytes

“What I’ve seen happen is, after vaccination, dogs develop what we call the ‘rabies miasm’, where they become more aggressive, more likely to bite, more nervous and suspicious,” notes Dr. Pitcairn. “They may also have a tendency to run away, to wander, and also sometimes to have excessive saliva, and to tear things up. It’s not that they have rabies, but they seem to express some symptoms of the disease from exposure to the vaccine.”

Dogs Naturally Magazine Rabies Miasm In Dogs


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## GatorBytes

....AND, Melatonin...two threads

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...anxiety-my-1-year-old-rescue.html#post2592681

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/senior-dog/191154-melatonin-my-senior.html


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## msvette2u

GatorBytes said:


> they seem to express some symptoms of the disease from exposure to the vaccine.”


Or...it could just be poor genetics since this dog has displayed behavioral symptoms from day one.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d-fear-aggressive-protective.html#post2574529

I think often, as with the autism-vaccination "link" (which was disproved, btw) dogs just display worsening behavior, with or without a vaccine. 

Correlation does not imply causation.

I would still be very hesitant to agree a 6mo. puppy needs to be put to sleep.


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## GatorBytes

...AND...Ashwagandha...

Other studies of chronic stress support these findings. For example, in a remarkable animal study, examination of the brains of sacrificed animals showed that 85% of the brain cells observed in the animals exposed to chronic stress showed signs of degeneration. It is this type of cellular degeneration that can lead to long-term cognitive difficulties. Amazingly, when ashwagandha was administered to chronically stressed animals, the number of degenerating brain cells was reduced by 80%!3

From this link

Ashwagandha: Stress Reduction, Neural Protection, and a Lot More from an Ancient Herb - Life Extension

I came across ashwagandha a couple of years ago after I came to the conclusion that my anxiety wasn’t a mental issue but rather an adrenal gland issue. It started to make sense that mental disorders, like depression and anxiety, are often a _result_ of a hormonal issue. I started looking for supplements that support or calm the adrenal glands. I began taking ashwagandha and my life changed...

From this link (the adrenal glands are part of the endnocrine/immune system - so you understand how it works as a whole)

Is Ashwagandha Good For Anxiety & Depression? | LIVESTRONG.COM - Deep Scythe


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## GatorBytes

Here is the link to help you find a Holistic veterinarian in your area that can help you.
Australian Holistic Veterinarians

Australian Holistic Vets - Locate a vet


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## Lauri & The Gang

Speaking as someone who HAS had to euthanize a 6 month old dog due to fear aggression, sometimes you have to think how the DOG feels.

The dog I had was terrified of everything. It would take WEEKS to get her to adjust to a single new factor in her life. I couldn't take her anywhere. If we were outside in the yard and a neighbor came out she would panic. Car rides - panic. Neighborhood dogs barking - panic.

I decided it was not fair to the dog to push her to continue to live a life of fear just because I thought she MIGHT be able to be worked with as she got older.

Very tough decision to make.

Even tougher when someone lives in an area that has tough dog laws.


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## billsharp

> We’ve consulted two respected behaviourists, one of whom is very experienced with GSDs (he even owns a stud dog) and aggressive dogs. They’ve evaluated our dog (one of the behaviourists met him on two separate occasions) and have advised us that he is an unsuitable pet dog and cannot be trusted due to his instability.


A dog is supposed to be a loving and fun addition to the family. From your description above you have responsibly had this dog evaluated and the unanimous conclusion by qualified people is that this dog will never be that. Even if you do and explore everything suggested between your post and this one, will you really be confident enough in this dog to trust it as you would a normal pet?

For this reason you cannot rehome it. You now face a long time essentially guarding a dangerous prisoner, not having a fulfilling pet.

This poor dog will not be happy anywhere, at any time, forever. The best thing for you to do is to euthanize it.

I'm sorry to hear of your predicament, but congratulate you on your efforts with this dog and look forward to seeing future posts when you get a more stable and loving dog.


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## GatorBytes

I AM speaking from experience by the way. To explain I could write a book.

But I can tell you - my dog was nuts. He lunged at everything - animal human. I had to use a pinch to control under a "well respected" trainer of 30 yrs. (waste of money) advice. I then hired a behaviourist who analysis was "dominant aggressive - not owner related". Prognosis for rehabilitation - "cautiously optimistic"
He took my dog off the pinch - re: negative association - pain to trigger (lunged at dog...pain self inflicted, associated to trigger - the dog).

I taught my dog to look at me, started carrying treats on walks (the first trainer had me carry a padded dowel to crack my dog over the nose with the moment he postured to act out - 2-3 x's of this and all he did was learn to duct - this put ME at risk as could have caused a break in our bond and re-directed aggression as he couldn't escape on a leash - bad bad trainer!!!!)...I started using treats and sit/down command when offending triggers approached (this incl. a trigger across 4 lanes of traffic). 

I had some success w/treat training and positive reinforcement (and taking off grains and going RAW - no vaccines anymore, kelp for the thyroid). He started looking to me for a treat and offering a sit automatically. But (I live in an apt. a very busy apt.) he still had anxiety/dominance issue in lobby and elevators - entering/exiting. I mean BAD. As in people would close the door on us as we approached...yelled at me...I swear some tried to get us evicted. He was hated and/or feared by most. I always muzzle him on the property so I couldn't use treats (but did do calming acupressure point on head - and sit/gentle chest rub - it was moving that was a problem - to get in and out of building)

It wasn't until A year and a half after his "evaluation" a new property manager took over the building. They promptly started a massive reconstuction of our balconies - it was INSANE and I was scared for my dog to have to regress and deal with this stress (I still have a sort of PTSD form this reno)...anyhow...I decided to be proactive and brought in to my holistic vet w/my quandry...she perscribed Ashwagandha.

Not only did my dog sail thru the reno (months of insanity), but he became very loving to all strangers (at a time of utter crazyness no less)...now he is known as "the leaner" - when he gets into elevator (if) person says hi (like a release command), he promptly gives a sniff and turns his shoulder into them and leans on for a rub...on the street he couldn't care less...unless someone focuses attention to me or him like "nice dog" or Hi or hi puppy (he's almost 8) and gives kisses! All the kids see us coming and run to him, surrounding him, hanging love on him.

He is now the favourite dog (and there are LOTS) of my building. EVERYBODY loves Gator! (almost - but some just won't or don't like dogs or just have a fear period).

Incidentally - the behaviourist I hired is on contract for the province of Ontario and is called upon to evaluate "death row" dogs before deciding on euthinasia (and my dog was 5.5yrs. old at the time of construction - not 6 months)


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## Elaine

I put down a foster dog for extreme fear aggression. She was a super sweet and fun little dog so long as she was kept in her own little bubble. Any intrusion into her private world was a horrible experience for her. There was no way I could place her in another home because she was such a hazard. I put her down for public safety reasons and because living with whatever demons she had going on in her head had to be so miserable for her.

I had another very fear aggressive puppy that I got early enough that I was able to manage her without her being a hazard. She went to a great home that was willing to continue with the training I set up for them so they could also manage her. She's doing great and they love her dearly. She will never get over her fear aggression, but she is managed safely where she has a happy life.

If the OP's dog is such a hazard and they are unable to manage him safely, then putting the dog down is a very real possibility. Some of these fear aggressive dogs can be managed if they get the help they need at a very early age, but most people don't know how to do it and they don't get the help early enough.


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## Jag

My female first took down a woman before she was a year old. Had I not been able to react quickly, she'd have killed her for sure. We went through behaviorists, trainers, every road there was to go down. We ended up keeping her at home all the time. She attempted to bite a few other people and successfully bit again. I never saw fear, just random attacks that had no warning (yes, I'm well aware of the warning signs, none of the behaviorists or trainers saw any either). She wasn't right in the head. We lived like this for seven years. I finally had to put her down. Her hips were going bad, she was locked in the house all the time for everyone's safety... it broke my heart. The breeder took no responsibility for it, even though I told him of the very first attack. I had battles with my kids for years because no one could come in the house. I was always worried about being sued. If she'd given me some sort of clue before she was going to attack, it would've been so much easier. Either way, you simply cannot re-home this type of dog. Your options are stick it out and try to keep people safe from this dog, or put the dog to sleep. Looking back, I thought I should have put her down after the first vicious attack, but I didn't. I should have. There was no saving this dog, but everyone that knows me knows I moved heaven and earth trying to.


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## Mooch

GatorBytes we don't have rabies in Australia  so no vaccination either!


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## wyominggrandma

Sometimes you have to look at everything, then weigh what the future looks like.
Anytime I read about a youngster acting aggressively for whatever might set it off, I think of brain tumors.
As I have stated before, my granddaughters 6 month old Sheltie puppy started attacking for no reason, no "set off" reasons, he just did. He was small, but still attacked with enough force for me to have stitches. We put him down and he had a brain tumor. He was probably born with it, and it just kept causing more issues as he got older. I truly believe the random attacks were due to pain in his head and it was his reaction to the pain, although all he showed was aggression. When he was happy, he was a typical sheltie and loved my granddaughter. I don't know if he could even help having the attacks.


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## msvette2u

I don't think this dog attacks "randomly" and I think it's stranger-directed.



Mooch said:


> GatorBytes we don't have rabies in Australia  so no vaccination either!


So much for the miasma theory...


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## GatorBytes

Mooch said:


> GatorBytes we don't have rabies in Australia  so no vaccination either!


Lucky doggies!!! some experts say it almost eradicated in the US too, quite rare now (seemingly a problem in bats)...but it is "law" most states...Sooo many forum members are going to be jealous of the Aussies!!!



msvette2u said:


> I don't think this dog attacks "randomly" and I think it's stranger-directed.
> 
> 
> So much for the miasma theory...


Miasm theory does not specifically relate to just rabies, in the dogs naturally article (Don Hamilton? or Pitcairn? can't remember) ref's the adjuvants in vaccines, those being, aluminum, mercury, formaldhyde to name a few. Perhaps I can pull those links that provide a list of these causative agents and effects of neurological disorders as a result.

It is not law to vaccinate for any other except rabies, so I think they use the rabies to promote the challange fund awareness and petition.

But regardless, melatonin, ashwagandha to bring back into balance...as a matter of fact the axiety link I posted below just updated minutes ago, They had success with their first try with melatonin today

Of course there could be an issue like wyoming raised, however testing for such first vs. trying noted.

Then there is always the thyroid issue, insulin overload (much like in ADHD and sugars in humans)...all is not lost yet without a kick at the can


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## msvette2u

> Miasm theory


But at the end of it all you still have just a theory. A theory by definition is not a fact.

And while owners try to wade through all the above _possible_ scenarios, they have a potentially dangerous dog on their hands.

I'm willing to bet there's a lot more pure and simple behavioral/genetic issues than there are possible reactions to some minute amount of "toxin" in a vaccine, or maybe possibly thyroid issues.


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## GatorBytes

msvette2u said:


> But at the end of it all you still have just a theory. A theory by definition is not a fact.
> 
> And while owners try to wade through all the above _possible_ scenarios, they have a potentially dangerous dog on their hands.
> 
> I'm willing to bet there's a lot more pure and simple behavioral/genetic issues than there are possible reactions to some minute amount of "toxin" in a vaccine, or maybe possibly thyroid issues.


Not true...I have my exp. too w/ a nutter...and toxin reactions are not theory's...they have stuck it out for 6 months, what's another month (likely less according to links...I think one person suggested a week to feel better) Can - muzzle dog in public...but a holistic vet can help detox and script appropriate medical dosing for best benefits. and again, could be diet change - another area of toxicity is kibble - that has been proven time and time again (no links - cannot be bothered, provided enough info to go on)

Toxins don't just come from minute doses in vax. in the enviroment too. may have been exposed to something...

anyhow, it's not a debate...I am just trying to help a helpless little puppy and owner who loves him. A puppy who may be death row because a behaviourist said so. Not a Vet.


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## harmony

piquant said:


> As some of you may be aware from my previous thread (http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...8-5-month-old-fear-aggressive-protective.html), I have a fear aggressive (now) 6-month-old GSD.
> 
> We’ve consulted two respected behaviourists, one of whom is very experienced with GSDs (he even owns a stud dog) and aggressive dogs. They’ve evaluated our dog (one of the behaviourists met him on two separate occasions) and have advised us that he is an unsuitable pet dog and cannot be trusted due to his instability.
> 
> Our options are to either rehome home, although we’ve been told that it’s highly unlikely that anyone will adopt him due to his severe behavioural problems, or euthanise him. Both of the behaviourists raised the possibility of undertaking further training with him (one said that it would take around 12 months to see any improvement), but they stressed that no amount of time, work, effort, money, etc. will ever make him a trustworthy and stable dog; he will always remain a huge liability that we have to stay on top of 24/7.
> 
> I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to seek advice here. I’m hoping that there are some members who have been in a similar position and can guide me.
> 
> I still have hope in my dog, even though I’ve been told time and time again that it will always be a case of two steps forward, three steps back with him. At the same time, I know his limitations and my limitations. But, I love him and the thought of putting him down is tearing me up inside. I’m just at a loss for what to do. Each day, I decide on one course of action and then change my mind.
> 
> If I lived in a remote area on a big block of land or in the country on a farm, I could keep him without worrying too much about the risk that he poses to others or changing my lifestyle too drastically. He could run free on my property and live a life with some quality. But, I live in a high density area and have a small backyard, so I have to walk/ exercise him in public.


I am not always so outspoken, but please never own this breed again and give the dog to someone who will save it's life, wait till 3 or 4 yrs of age then you will really know what you have for life!


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## martemchik

Dogs should add to your life not take away from it. Depending on your lifestyle if you don't believe you can keep this dog safe, keep others safe from it, and keep living your life without unnecessary concessions, then you have your answer. But if you don't think you can do those things you should think about what's best for you and the dog.

A human aggressive dog is always a much greater problem than any other type of aggression. Although its sad to think about PTS of a 6 month old puppy, these kinds of issues usually pop up at a very early age. Be it socialization, genetics, or whatever else is the case. I think if you can try Gator's thing, its worth a try as he claims it worked very quickly. You should notice a change fairly quickly and if you don't; you know its something else.

I think you need to think about your lifestyle...do you like having people over? Will this dog always have to deal with high anxiety situations because you like those kinds of situations? If you aren't someone that has people over a lot...the dog can stay safe inside your home, but if you have people over and have to lock up the dog the dog will go through extreme stress anyways...even though it won't be able to lash out the dog will still be extremely uncomfortable.

I'm not going to say that you haven't taken enough time to work through some of these issues, as you've contacted behaviorists, but this is definitely not a dog you'd ever be able to trust off lead or give it any kind of freedom. Even if one day it is rehabbed and seems fine it might react. The people that have seen it, have tried to work with it, will always know a lot more than anyone on this forum.


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## GatorBytes

I also want to note that he no longer gets ashwagandha. But still loves his all his new peeps.

Starting melatonin to relax the brain so it is not in hyper - overactive strung out mode...when relaxed will be more open to training, socialization. Plus this natural sedative mode will destress the adrenals which releases hormones...much like in people who are overstressed (not the healthy stress, but overwhelmed), cannot think clearly, tense, may lash out for no reason...


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## harmony

4 t0 6 months I took a very high drive, unruly dog in and it was not always a pretty picture but, I could not even imagine having a dog like that if I did not know how to train one. Sometimes it is not always the dog but the person that owns them who creates the problem. I really hated to say that but it is true...


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## sparra

Mrs.K said:


> Since when is it forbidden to do Schutzhund?
> Schutzhund Australia
> Working German Shepherd Dogsport Clubs of Australasia, schutzhund, ipo, australia
> 
> However, it does sound a nightmare to own a dog in Australia.


It is only a nightmare to own a dog in Victoria if it is declared dangerous.....don't have a dangerous dog......no nightmare!!!

I wasn't aware schutzhund was not allowed in Victoria.....one of the best working line GSD breeders in Australia "Von Forell" is in Melbourne and they do bite work with their dogs.....

I like martemchik's post. Not everyone is cut out to own a dog like this. I certainly wouldn't but that is just me. I don;t think this dog would have a great quality of life being so scared all the time and your quality of life would suffer owning a dog like this too......dogs are supposed to bring us joy. Just because the dog is only 6months old doesn't mean you shouldn't consider euthanasia. If you don;t think you can keep him safe and others around you safe then it is a very responsible option. I would never re-house a dog like this.....it really is such a shame you have to go through all of this.....I really feel for you in this situation.


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## piquant

Thank you all for your help/advice. I'm taking all of it on board. 

Yes, the dog laws in my country and in my state are extremely strict and people are becoming increasingly litigious. Here, I could be sued if my dog barks and lunges at someone, but doesn't make any contact. 

No, he won’t be rehomed, even if he could be rehomed. It would be passing the problem on to someone else, and it would cause him too much stress and anxiety. 

I’m trying to be a responsible pet owner. I have to consider what is best for the dog (living a life of high stress and anxiety with no freedom) and for the community, as well as other GSD owners. I don’t want GSDs to end up on the dangerous dogs list because of my puppy and I. 

He’s a BYB dog, so the breeder isn’t in the picture. I’ve since been informed that my dog’s father displayed similar aggression. When my father went to see the sire, he barked, lunged and threw himself at the fence in an attempt to get to my father, most likely to attack him. The sire didn’t listen to the ‘breeder’/his owner when he was told enough. My parents, who found and purchased my dog, are clueless about breeders, breeding, temperament, etc. so they didn’t know any better. It’s not an excuse, but what is done is done and we’ve learnt from our mistakes.

The difficult part is that he doesn’t have identifiable triggers; everything and everyone is potentially a trigger. 

The first behaviourist described him as unpredictable, which, in her mind, makes him so dangerous. One second, she was stroking his head, and he was relaxed and comfortable (he was on a leash and muzzled); the next second, he lunged at her. The clincher for her was his barking and lunging at my father, whom he is usually extremely tender and loving towards, during an exercise. It was as though my father was a stranger that he had never met before. 

The second behaviourist said that any progress through training will be minimal, because he is a genetically weak dog that is so mistrustful of everyone and not motivated by food, toys (e.g. a ball), tug, etc. (the behaviourist tested his drive) when he is outside of the house.

Both of the behaviourists mentioned but then ruled out the possibility of medical conditions causing his aggression. The first behaviourist said that if I really wanted to, I could have his thyroid levels tested by a specialist in the US (if I recall correctly, her name is Jean Dodds). It’s one avenue that I’m considering. Another avenue is desexing him immediately (he’s not a dog that should ever be bred), but I’ve been informed that, at the very best, it will only slightly diminish the intensity of his aggression.

The behaviourists also don’t think that calming drugs will resolve his behavioural problems, as they’re most likely genetic and learned. A third avenue that I’m thinking of is consulting a veterinary behaviourist, but I don’t want him to be ‘cured’ by doping him to the point where he’s practically asleep. Giving him Melatonin and Ashwagandha sounds like a good idea. By the way, thank you so much, GatorBytes, for all of the links and detailed information. 

Harmony, my dog doesn’t have a high drive and he’s not unruly. You have no idea how much I wish that he was just too much dog for me. It was a possibility considered but quickly ruled out by both of the behaviourists. 

The training will be difficult, because I’m moving to a different state next year for a new job (we got the dog before any of this; it was never my intention to move away). I won’t be able to have the dog with me for at least a few months, as I’ll be living in a share house. I can’t rent on my own until I save up a lot of money, as the rent in that state (Canberra, for the Australians on here) is ridiculously high – I can’t afford it on my salary alone. It’s also extremely hard to rent with pets there, but I'll try my best. My parents will have difficulty training and staying on top of him due to their busy work schedules (my father is a doctor and my mother is a nurse).

I haven’t decided anything yet. My head says one thing and my heart says another. I just want to be responsible. I can’t wait until he bites a stranger, a member of my family or me before he is put down.


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## CeCe

That is a big concern that he suddenly showed aggression to your father when he usually gets along with him. Also concerning is that the sire was aggressive. It's a decision only you can make but upon hearing this new info I think putting him down is a viable option. Very tragic that somebody bred a pup that is so unstable.


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## Mooch

Sparra - You can do bite work in Vic if you have a security license  Which state are you in?


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## Jag

I doubt bite work training in a human aggressive, unstable dog is a good idea.


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## Castlemaid

I'm sorry. Stuff like this can happen even from good lines and careful, experienced breeders. Some pups are just born with wires crossed. I've seen it where out of over a hundred stable, solid, reliable pups bred over the years, one had temperament issues and was unpredictably aggressive through no fault of the owner. 

It is heartbreaking any way you look at it.


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## Mooch

Harmony I think your first post was pretty cruel, the OP has tried very hard to do the right thing by this dog, has seen different behaviour specialists and she loves this dog. 
She's got a very tough decision to make and a comment like "you should never own a GSD again and give the one you have to someone that can handle him" are only going to hurt her even more, they are not constructive, it's just mean in my opinion.

Jag I wasn't suggesting OP should do bite work, that comment was for Sparra in regard to PP dogs in Australia



> It is heartbreaking any way you look at it.


 I think that sums the whole situation it up perfectly


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## Liesje

I don't understand why the dog's age is so important? Genetics are genetics. If the dog is just not wired right, that's not going to change, and would be evident early on. If the dog is dangerous and can't have quality if life then I'm not going to publicly shame the OP for putting it down.


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## Jag

Castlemaid said:


> I'm sorry. Stuff like this can happen even from good lines and careful, experienced breeders. Some pups are just born with wires crossed. I've seen it where out of over a hundred stable, solid, reliable pups bred over the years, one had temperament issues and was unpredictably aggressive through no fault of the owner.
> 
> It is heartbreaking any way you look at it.


This is SO true! My female with this issue was from two KKL1, Schutz. titled german imports. They'd held back other dogs they bred for search and rescue. They said they'd never had this issue before. It's been over a year... and I still can't forgive myself even though I've been told by everyone it wasn't my fault, nothing I could do. It kills a part of you. It stays with you forever. No one should be bashing on this owner. Especially if you don't know what it's like to deal with it, try to work with it, then have to come to the realization that there's simply nothing left you can do. It breaks your heart like nothing else. These dogs are loved as much as any other shepherd. They creep in and steal your heart just the same. However, you have a responsibility not only to the dog, but to the public. There's no good choice, just the one you ultimately have to make. I'm so very sorry. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. 

Sorry, Mooch, I misunderstood!


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## Jag

Liesje said:


> I don't understand why the dog's age is so important? Genetics are genetics. If the dog is just not wired right, that's not going to change, and would be evident early on. If the dog is dangerous and can't have quality if life then I'm not going to publicly shame the OP for putting it down.


Thank you for this. For me, it was evident early on. My girl was proof that sometimes there's just nothing you can do. Hanging on for years only means more bites, lots of stress, and low quality of life for the poor dog. I hope others are stronger than I was.


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## rumhelka

I also don't believe that a 6 months old puppy can not be rehabilitated. I'm sorry, age HAS a lot to do with it (he is a teenager now). He should be neutered immediately and placed with a person who can be extreemely tough with him (not allowing him to make any decisions on his own). Maybe Cesar Milan could be contacted or maybe there is a German Shepherd Rescue in your area and you can talk to them first, before making any decision???
Best of luck to you and your pup!


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## doggiedad

stick it out with him. keep him muzzled when in public.
make sure he can't get out of your yard (digging, jumping
or climbing). continue with the behaviorist. good luck.


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## jae

I just watched this video (bored at work) maybe it gives you some hope!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmGKtby43Oc


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## Jrnabors

That's too bad about this dog. This kind of thing can be reduced with good breeding.


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## PupperLove

This is going to be long...

But I was in your shoes, so I feel your pain. I know how it feels to have your heart being ripped out, tears running down your face, feel like it's your faut, and having your head spin all at once. Not a good feeling at all, especially when you are supposed to be enjoying your new puppy. But in this situation, it's not your fault.

When I first got my puppy, I picked him up at 8 weeks. I got him from a guy who was very enthusiastic about the breed. After I got my puppy and continued to learn more, I realized that he didn't have the right 'goal' in mind when choosing his breeding stock dispite his love for this noble breed. 

When we got to the breeder after driving over 100 miles one way, he was inside finishing up some home business stuff and the pups were laying on his front porch. They immdiately got up and started squealing in fear, which at the time, I thought was completley understandable considering strangers are approaching, and master and mom are nowhere to be seen. Well, long story short, in hindsight, it wasn't just my boy who is fearful. His brother was too.

He bonded to us fairly quickly, but was also very withdrawn if that makes any sense. He didn't like to be petted much, kept his distance from us, and was not playful. At all. He wasn't very food motivated either at the time. He was just very bland in personality.

Weeks turn to months. I know about socialization, and I take him to as many places that I can, but he is completley uncomfortable and wants nothing to do with anybody- unlike MOST puppies. No wagging tail. Just hackles, lunging, and snapping at anyone who acknowledged him. He also would lunge, bark, and hackle at strange objects- particularly garbage cans and strollers. I was so happy to finally have him and then it felt like I couldn't take him anywhere without him being toally uncomfortable and me being totally embarrassed.

He also would lunge and bark at people who carried themselves 'funny', people with dark hair (none of us nor his breeder have dark hair, so he never 'bonded' to it so to speak, this puppy seeks comfort from familiar things), or anone who would talk in a baby voice. He would also 'forget' people like your dog seems to do. It is scary, confusing, and frustrating to watch. He did to to my father, husband, kids and myself. And that's when I totally fell apart. It was at it's worst between 4 and 6 months, and evidentally was/is wired in his genes. No matter how many introductions, and how many times he was eased into a situation, his reaction was the same every single time. His first winter, we built a snowman and he barked and hackled and peeked over his shoulder at it every time he was out to go potty.

People told me to work on him. In my heart I thought he should probably be put down because I need to protect my family financially and shouldn't have this liability. I was just waiting for a bite. His breeder said he may need to be euthanized. He also said that puppys go through a lot of stages and he may turn out to be a different dog as an adult. The vet was worried, and the trainer was also concerned.

Fast forward to two and a half years old. He is the most loving, velcro dog ever! He needs to be by us or he's unhappy. He is able to go on walks without barking and hackling at everyone and was able to be petted this past summer by strangers. He LOVES to play! He became playful just after 6 months and that was a ticket to the road to making new human friends. He no longer forgets people, he still barks, but is a total joy in our house and loves our children. He is loved by all of our house guests. He's a completley different dog that I thought he would _never_ be.

The things that seemed to work best for us was to show him who is in charge and for _me_ NOT to react. When I get tense in anticipation for him to get tense, it happens. If he gets out of control, he goes to his crate. His crate is his SAFE place for him to calm down and collect the surroundings. People are not allowed to approach him when he's on a leash. If he fixated on something, he is called off and we start a different activity with lots of praise. We still work all the time, but I trust him now and that is the best feeling ever.

All in all, I hear a lot of similarities in your story. Do what you think is best, even though your head and heart are saying two opposite things. Take it one day at a time and try and accept it for what it is, and you will make the right decision. And remember, he is still young and still has major developing to do mentally and physically, but above all, do whatever you need to do to keep PEOPLE safe if you think he is a liability.


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## GatorBytes

Pupperlove - thankfully a flip side to the ugly (no offence OP's - everyone/dog is different) ...which is why I suggested ashwagandha, made a difference in my dog, it works on the adrenals which secrete the stress hormones, calming and will make easier for pooch to acclimate to stressful situations re: the fight or flight. Plus constant release of stress hormones cause so many other health problems.


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## harmony

You came to the right place for help . How can we help you? I know the mods will tell you everything you need to know, but I have to leave soon  It will be ok Let them help you


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## harmony

doggiedad said:


> stick it out with him. keep him muzzled when in public.
> make sure he can't get out of your yard (digging, jumping
> or climbing). continue with the behaviorist. good luck.


for someone does not like to have a collar a dog! are you sure? I couldn't help it


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## harmony

We seriously want the best for you!!!! I mean IT!!!


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## harmony

I am sorry I did not read everything, but I do know what it is like to have an aggressive 6 month old, but it came out of the highest working line with only tug work and no manners. I don't know ur specific problem though, why that is a problem, or is it a dominant one? 
You need help and we will help you with ur pup as long as you give ur pup that chance.


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## Jax08

I am going tomorrow to work with a dog at a local animal sanctuary, under the guidance of a behaviorist/trainer. I'll pick her brain on possible ideas on helping your puppy.

Personally, I don't think Harmony was trying to shame anyone or to be cruel. The point I took from her previous post was that sometimes a person can have a dog that is to much for them. In her example, a high drive working line dog. Many pet owners would not be able to handle a dog that needs a strong leader. IME, I have created my own problems with my own dog by how I reacted to a situation and by my training. I'm pretty sure that is what she meant. Sometimes dogs are above a person's knowledge base but do well with a different owner.


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## msvette2u

I definitely think it's a mismatch between dog and owner; you can have Dog A and it may do okay with family B, but family C may make it's (already existent) issues worse.


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## Colt45

Piquant, I have a german shepard that is a year and a half old. When I took him to training i was told not to use a shoke chain because it can hurt and damage your dogs trekia. i use a "gental lead" now and it helps A LOT! I have very similar problems but they stem from Colt at 12-16 weeks old watching my ex beat the crap out of me on a regular basis. He HATES men near me. I read your previous post as well. No dog should be uthinized when with training can be molded into a model dog and he is 6 MONTHS OLD you cant expect results over night training goes on through out the dogs entire life. Colt has gotten a lot better with the gental lead in public he also loves kids. I can now take him back out to public places like car shows and not have to worry about him being a brat and trying to eat people. you have control over his entire head too with the gental lead instead of the mid-evil prog choke or the regular choke were you have control of his neck instead of his head. Dont rehome a dog who can (with love, devotion and displine) be molded into a decent family dog. Oh an the trainer that you spoke of in your posts before under the five month old should have had a chain around her/his throat and see how it feels to have it pulled all the sudden. I still have my choke and he still wears it but is more for him to wear when he gets hot spots on his keck instead of the other caller. Dont give up on your dog. He needs you to help guild him.


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## sparra

msvette2u said:


> I definitely think it's a mismatch between dog and owner; you can have Dog A and it may do okay with family B, but family C may make it's (already existent) issues worse.


What makes you so "definite" ??
The OP has done what most say.....go see a behaviorists. They have been to 2..... both (one of which the dog bit) saying that the dog is not stable. How can you be so sure that with another owner the dog will just be fine when you haven't even seen it?? There is a big difference between a high drive dog who is too much for an owner and a dog biting and lunging at people because it is petrified.....just sayin.....


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## selzer

Well, I definitely _think_ winter will be early this year. That does not mean winter will be early. It just means that I feel pretty definite about what I think. 

I don't know if I responded to this thread. Kind of watching it. I got a pup back at 5.5 months old, and she had gone to the previous people when she was a little over 8 weeks old. They immediately took her out to socialize her. They took her to the vet a bajillion times, some of them for many vaccinations, and some for doggy day care. They took her to two different trainers. They seemed to get her to stop being so bitey with their people, but they were extremely worried when they took her anywhere on how she was going to act with people. 

I got her back and did not do anything with her for a month. I took her nowhere, save once to the vet to weigh her. And, I did not have anyone that came over interact with her, when she was not back for two weeks yet and my contractor and I went to walk through her kennel which was the patio -- indoor/outdoor and it wasn't pretty. 

However, after having her for a month, I put her in classes. We went for six weeks and signed up for another six weeks, so 12 weeks in all. Then we took the CGC. We flunked. But only supervised separation. She let the evaluator pet her head and check her ears and paws, and brush her back, she walked through a crowd of people, mostly joking rowdy men, she did the meet and greet with another dog, and there was that little lackland terrier in this group that kept trying to attack everyone. At no point did she bark and growl or snap at anyone. 

She got her microchip a few days earlier and was stabbed two or three times, and was just stellar through that and while the boy put the bulky reader up and tried to find the chip. 

She is on vacation now, but we will go back to classes as we are not there (where I want to be with her) yet. I think that socialization is very important. But it does matter what is going on on the other end of the leash during the socialization process too. Some dogs do better with a very confident person on the other end of the leash. And when the person on the other end of the leash is fearful or nervous, or shy, they can be sending that message to a pup.

I hate to give up on a puppy. I am sure that there are puppies that have serious issues, even physical issues where the kindest thing to do is euthanize. I think that is a personal decision dependent on the ability to manage the dog, and the frequency of the problem behavior or the percentage of the time that the dog seems to be under serious duress. 

You can have a puppy that is getting the wrong messages down the leash, and is making bad choices. If that is the case, then the dog might do better with someone else, or a change in leadership style and classes and maturity in the dog which will improve the bond between you and the dog might help. 

My girl will be a year old in another month and a half. She has changed a lot in five months.


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## msvette2u

> here is a big difference between a high drive dog who is too much for an owner and a dog biting and lunging at people because it is petrified.....just sayin.....


Yeah you're right. I should have said "there's a good chance it is..."
But I've seen too many dogs mishandled, which subsequently blossom in new surroundings, to discount that perhaps mishandling is a culprit.
Reactivity is often owner-caused, when the owner tenses up and the dog becomes fearful due to that, and feels it must defend it's owner.
Without seeing this situation, it certainly could be the case.


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## Twyla

I keep checking in on this thread.

In an earlier post I made on this thread, I left it at the OP should base his decisions on his circumstances. While that is still true, I'm adding my opinion 

This pup shouldn't be pts. Judging by previous post of the OP this pup has been put into situations that was beyond the pup's ability to handle, then some handling errors of not being aware of surroundings led to some encounters. 

If OP can locate a trainer/behaviorist who isn't so quick to say pts, learn management skills while at the same time help pup through training with the FA, OP may very well be surprised with the results.


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## Sasha86

Have you tried reactive rover classes? I put down a Aussie mix rescue who at one years old for very possessive and started biting people. She was completely people aggressive and even with training, puppy socials and private training it seemed to be getting uncontrollable. At one point she went to the red zone and bit my finger. This is where I officially gave up, I hope that this young pup still has a chance. There is not one day I don't think of her, she was my first dog. Anyways it takes a lot of patience and if needed a complete lifestyle change for you. 
Good luck it's a very hard decision 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## piquant

Thank you all for your guidance, support and well wishes. 

Unfortunately, yesterday, my dog bit my dad. 

We were playing fetch with him. My dad, who was holding the squeaky ball in one hand, asked my dog to ‘sit’ before he threw the ball. We always require a ‘sit’ and eye contact before we throw. When my dad looked into my dog’s eyes, he started barking, growling and snarling at him, before he made contact with my dad’s arm. We were shocked, to say the least. He broke the skin, but the wound wasn’t too deep. I had to grab him and leash him to stop him from continuing the barking and growling at my dad. 

I called the second behaviourist after the incident, because I didn’t know what to make of my dog biting my dad – someone he has known longer than he has known me (my dad was the one who picked him out and took him home from the BYB). 

The behaviourist said that because my dog’s threshold for stress is extremely low, he gets stressed very, very easily and now automatically reverts to his default learned/imprinted behaviour (aggression). He said that the combination of weak nerves, a low threshold and high defense drive means that I have a dangerous dog on my hands and if I was his best friend, he would tell me, straight out, to get rid of the dog. 

We have a consultation with the vet behaviourist early next week. In the meantime, my dog is muzzled when my dad’s around; confined to his crate or exercise pen indoors; and I’m expending his energy by training him at home, instead of taking him outside for walks (I don’t trust him at all at this point).


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## Jax08

I am in no way knowledgable about aggression like this at all but let me tell you what I see....

Looking a dog in the eyes is a challenge. So by playing ball with a dog like this you set up a situation where you are building excitement by throwing the ball so he's already a bit out of control. Remember at 6 mths he is not mature. Then your dad looked him in the eye and challenged a dog that was already at his thresh hold for excitement. 

I'm not saying his reaction was normal, because I'm not sure it was. I am going to say I think it was a situation where he could only fail. Dogs have fight or flight instinct. If I stared my dog down, she would lower her head and turn it away from me in a submissive gesture. If you stared my dog down, you would have a barking, teeth baring mess coming at you.

When I'm playing with my dog, she will come up and snap at the frisbee sometimes accidentally getting my fingers, and she will bark at me if I"m not moving fast enough for her. But she's never attacked. 

So my question is...did you have an over excited puppy who wanted the ball and was stressed because a person was staring him in the eyes. Nobody here can really evaluate what happened without being there or at least seeing a video.

I don't have any advice on what you should do because that is way past my knowledge base. I'm just giving you a possible reason why this happened.


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## GatorBytes

Exactly what Jax said.

I think the expectations for the dog are too high. Did the dog sit? Did your Dad hesitate to throw until the dog looked at him...the energy is building...he wants it so bad he cannot process the requirement to get what he wants (adrenals, stress hormones)...when he was with his litter, he probably had to fight to get what he wanted and/or defend...or he somehow learned via the swift blow by the mother meant knock it off...He may have been telling your dad "hey, knock it off and throw the ball"...In stress mode he reverts back to what is inherant from his mom. Just a theory.

If he has some metabolic issues going on as discussed earlier, this will contribute to the hightened anxiety. 

True aggression, he would have shredded your father. However, that can be learned too as he pushes the boundries...Although a "behaviourist" said so, does not mean they are an expert....like any business, they want the dog to succeed as it promotes more business. This person may not be the right fit to train you to train your dog...so they are going to revert to "hopeless case" which may just mean, "I haven't got a clue in this case"


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## msvette2u

> The behaviourist said that because my dog’s threshold for stress is extremely low, he gets stressed very, very easily and now automatically reverts to his default learned/imprinted behaviour (aggression). He said that the combination of weak nerves, a low threshold and high defense drive means that I have a dangerous dog on my hands and if I was his best friend, he would tell me, straight out, to get rid of the dog.


Is this dog _leashed_ while any of this is going on??

As Jax said, why are you frustrating the dog by holding the ball "until he makes eye contact"? Does this dog ever play when it's enjoyable to him?

I'd leash this puppy - at all times starting this moment.

You've been given a ton of advice - but much of it may in fact be wrong, or not working right for this dog.

Without seeing him - I would start these things - But only with the dog always under your control with the AIDE OF A LEASH.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
(read the link but here's an overview)

Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!

Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.

Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.

Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!

Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.

At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.

If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!

Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!

Dogs sometimes use urination and defecation to mark their own territories. Some males are particularly persistent about urine marking as many places as possible (some bitches do this as well). I call this “pee-mail”--dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine. Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.

Urine marking is different from regular urination--the dog sniffs something (often a vertical object or a place where another dog has peed), then moves forward a little and sprinkles that place with a few drops of urine.

If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.

Mind Game #4: Patience!

Dogs that are overly pushy and dogs that are too fearful share one important personality trait: they tend to be impatient. They move, act and make decisions too quickly. Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.

First teach your dog to do a down. Then put him on leash, have him do a down and run the leash under your own foot. Leave your dog enough slack to lie comfortably but not enough to be comfortable sitting or standing.

If your dog gets up, just stay quiet and keep pressure on the leash. Let your dog discover how to be comfortable. Your dog will eventually relax and just hang out.

If you do this regularly, your dog will start to relax sooner and sooner.

Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority. As almost every dog could tell you, the best spots to sleep in any house are the furniture and human beds.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog lacks respect for you, prohibit your dog from getting up on the furniture and on your bed. If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving. Don’t be harsh, just firm and matter of fact.

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

If your dog sneaks up on the bed with you after you fall asleep, put him in a crate or shut him out of the bedroom.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog is fearful or anxious, it is important to get your dog out of the bedroom. British trainer John Rogerson has noted that he has never seen a case of separation anxiety in a dog that routinely sleeps outside the bedroom. I have seen a few cases of separation anxiety in dogs that didn’t sleep in the owner’s bedroom but *did* sleep with one or more other dogs. Removing the other dogs did trigger anxiety, so make sure your dog is sleeping in a room alone.

Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!

Dogs can take control of a space by lying in the middle of the traffic pattern or by lying in the doorway. Anxious dogs are trying to prevent their owner from leaving, dogs with leadership ambitions are trying to control their owner’s movement. In dog society, the lesser ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

Don’t ask your dog to move or warn your dog that you are about to make him move. Make it your dog’s responsibility to keep an eye on you and to move as needed to accommodate you.

If you think your dog might bite you, consult a trainer or behaviorist with experience dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP! In the meantime, put a buckle or limited-slip collar on your dog and attach a houseline. Use the houseline to move your dog.

Mind Game #7: Follow the Leader!

Teaching your dog to follow you teaches your dog to keep an eye on you and to accommodate your movements. You’re an important person in your dog’s life and if he doesn’t know it, it’s time for him to learn it.

Tie your dog’s leash to your belt or around your waist for at least one hour each day. Go about your every day business without paying particular attention to your dog. Don’t warn your dog you are about to move, don’t pay attention to your dog, don’t coax him to come with you. Make it his responsibility to follow his leader (you!) around.

It’s inconvenient to do--but the more often you can do this, the faster you will see a change in your dog’s behavior.

Mind Game #8: Take Control of Your Dog’s Body!

Dogs prefer to be touched on their own terms. Some dogs want to be petted constantly and some dogs would prefer only to be handled by invitation only.

If your dog solicits petting constantly, stop all free petting. Insist that your dog earn each petting session by performing one or more commands and keep each petting session short in duration.

If your dog doesn’t enjoy being handled, make sure that you handle your dog all over every day. Make sure you can touch and examine every part of your dog’s body, including his ears and between his pads.

If it gives you more confidence in handling, wear gloves until you feel safe handling your dog. If you think there is a high probability that your dog will bite you, seek professional help!

Mind Game #9: S/he Who Owns the Most Toys Wins!

In dog society, the dog able to control the most resources is usually the highest ranked. Giving a dog lots of toys that no one else touches can give that dog a mistaken impression of his own rank in the world. Overly confident dogs can become aggressive resource guarders and overly fearful dogs feel stressed by the enormity of their responsibilities.

Pick up and put out of your dog’s reach all of the toys, including chew toys. Hold one play session per day with your dog where you bring out one toy and use it to play with your dog for 10-15 minutes.

If your dog declines to play with you, put the toy away without comment.

Mind Game #10: Daily Chores!

Remind your dog that he works for his living by holding two short daily obedience sessions. For 5-10 minutes in each session, run through all the commands your dog knows or teach him new ones.

These can be combined with hand feeding sessions.

Mind Game #11: A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body!

Dogs need physical exercise to stay physically and mentally healthy. Make sure your dog is getting 30 minutes of aerobic exercise every other day. Aerobic exercise is any exercise that makes your dog pant steadily. Depending on your dog’s size and fitness level, this can be on lead walking, jogging, road work, treadmill, retrieve games, swimming or pulling.

It’s difficult for many people to walk fast enough to give a medium or large dog aerobic exercise (any dog over about 25 pounds). If on lead walking is the only option, you can increase the ooomph factor by teaching your dog to pull a drag from a nonrestrictive harness. I start small with loops of rope and work up to motorcycle tires (depending on the size and condition of the dog). This has an added advantage for conformation people of building the dog’s rear.

Avoid retrieve games if your dog doesn’t play nicely. Playing nicely means respecting your space when you have possession of the object (in other words, not leaping on you to rip it out of your hands), bringing the object directly back to you and allowing you to take the object out of his mouth.

Make sure your dog is getting a high quality diet with moderate amounts of protein and fat. I believe that a homemade diet based on raw ingredients (meats and veggies) is healthiest for dogs. There are high quality kibbles on the market for those who prefer to feed a commercial diet. Money saved on cheap kibble often gets spent at the vet, so there’s no point in trying to economize with cheap dog food.

Mind Game #12: Rewards From Daily Life!

All dogs have things that they enjoy doing. Earning these daily pleasures can help your dog learn confidence and compliance.

It might include things like going out in the yard, going for a walk, being fed, going for a ride in the car, being groomed, being petted, getting scratched in that spot that is always itchy, etc. Before you let your dog have any of the things on that list, have your dog perform a known command, then reward him with the intended activity. If he refuses to do the behavior, don’t comment, just walk away, wait for five to ten minutes and try again.

Play as many of the Mind Games as you can for at least a month. If your dog’s attitude has improved, slowly start dropping some of the games. I recommend that you keep the first game (No More Kibble From Heaven!) and the last game (Rewards From Daily Life!) for life. You may decide to keep playing more or all of the games. If your dog’s attitude starts to get worse again, re-institute the game you most recently dropped for at least another month.


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## Bubbles

It's a puppy don't euthanize him. If you can't handle him try to find him a new home. More training, also maybe get a muzzle until your problems are resolved. I wish I could be more helpful. I really disagree with putting him down he is young enough to change . Have you tried asking your vet if he might need anxiety medication ? 

good luck.


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## Jax08

My advice is, before you make any further decisions, find a trainer that is experienced with this breed. Even if you have to go to the next province over to find a Schutzhund club, that is what I would do. I think experience with the breed and knowledge of breed traits is so important.


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## cliffson1

The behaviorist observations are not infrequent with this breed, just as excessive shyness is not uncommon with this breed. WEAK nerves is very common in the breed, low thresholds is not uncommon, and the reactive ness that results if the defense component is present is consistent with the behavior described. I would trust a behaviorist/trainer much more than I would a person who hasn't seen the dog. Sure no one is perfect, but at least the behaviorist/trainer is familiar with these type things. That is much better than people with no knowledge of the specific dog and little if any experience with working with these type dogs routine throwing out all kinds of suggestions. Get a second first hand assessment from a trainer and I would think you will probably get pretty much the same assessment...this dog has issues! I have seen this movie many many times.


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## Jag

cliffson1 said:


> The behaviorist observations are not infrequent with this breed, just as excessive shyness is not uncommon with this breed. WEAK nerves is very common in the breed, low thresholds is not uncommon, and the reactive ness that results if the defense component is present is consistent with the behavior described. I would trust a behaviorist/trainer much more than I would a person who hasn't seen the dog. Sure no one is perfect, but at least the behaviorist/trainer is familiar with these type things. That is much better than people with no knowledge of the specific dog and little if any experience with working with these type dogs routine throwing out all kinds of suggestions. Get a second first hand assessment from a trainer and I would think you will probably get pretty much the same assessment...this dog has issues! I have seen this movie many many times.


This is so, so true! It's very difficult to even contemplate such a thing, and worse if you're made to feel that everyone that has evaluated the dog is wrong and there is some 'magic bullet' that will work if you just try hard enough... Sadly, this isn't always the case. In person evaluations are ALWAYS needed and the best source of true guidance when you have a hair trigger dog.


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## harmony

Maybe so? But, what about the right tools, exercise and a firm hand but with a rewarding one too (only if it is deserved). 6 months old might have to play and train some at different times , exercise.

How about that ball fetish? You might be able to direct that into something good.


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## Twyla

cliffson1 said:


> The behaviorist observations are not infrequent with this breed, just as excessive shyness is not uncommon with this breed. WEAK nerves is very common in the breed, low thresholds is not uncommon, and the reactive ness that results if the defense component is present is consistent with the behavior described. I would trust a behaviorist/trainer much more than I would a person who hasn't seen the dog. Sure no one is perfect, but at least the behaviorist/trainer is familiar with these type things. That is much better than people with no knowledge of the specific dog and little if any experience with working with these type dogs routine throwing out all kinds of suggestions. Get a second first hand assessment from a trainer and I would think you will probably get pretty much the same assessment...this dog has issues! I have seen this movie many many times.


The pup has issues but do you think he is salvageable?


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> The behaviorist observations are not infrequent with this breed, just as excessive shyness is not uncommon with this breed. WEAK nerves is very common in the breed, low thresholds is not uncommon, and the reactive ness that results if the defense component is present is consistent with the behavior described. I would trust a behaviorist/trainer much more than I would a person who hasn't seen the dog. Sure no one is perfect, but at least the behaviorist/trainer is familiar with these type things. That is much better than people with no knowledge of the specific dog and little if any experience with working with these type dogs routine throwing out all kinds of suggestions. Get a second first hand assessment from a trainer and I would think you will probably get pretty much the same assessment...this dog has issues! I have seen this movie many many times.


You would think that with two behaviorists concurring on an assessment of a puppy, it would be proper. I would need to seriously consider the resume and experience of the behaviorist though before putting a death penalty on a young puppy. 

I also think the puppy probably has issues, but I don't know that it can't be salvaged with the right management and handling for that pup. I guess I would rather work with a behaviorist who will try to give me some techniques to at least try and work with the puppy before just giving up on it completely. 

I mean, the honest assessment might run like:
Your puppy is fear aggressive and has a very low threshold. There is a LOT of liability with this kind of dog. It might be that you will never be able to trust the dog completely. If you are committed to working with this puppy here is a plan with some techniques we can try to increase his confidence, work with a muzzle to socialize, and improve the leadership so that he feels safe and less likely to react.


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## sashadog

Jag said:


> This is so, so true! It's very difficult to even contemplate such a thing, and worse if you're made to feel that everyone that has evaluated the dog is wrong and there is some 'magic bullet' that will work if you just try hard enough... Sadly, this isn't always the case. In person evaluations are ALWAYS needed and the best source of true guidance when you have a hair trigger dog.


Totally agree... I've been following this thread and while I don't have any advice for the OP, I think it's interesting that the behaviorist opinions are being discredited when they're the only ones who've actually evaluated the dog in person. How many times to people come on here looking for help, are sent to a behaviorist, come back to report and are told that the behaviorist must have it wrong? Is it that hard to believe that this dog may simply be a dangerous animal with a screw loose? 

This is a hard enough situation and I hope you, the OP, are able to find a solid support system no matter what decision you have to make


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## harmony

sashadog said:


> Totally agree... I've been following this thread and while I don't have any advice for the OP, I think it's interesting that the behaviorist opinions are being discredited when they're the only ones who've actually evaluated the dog in person. How many times to people come on here looking for help, are sent to a behaviorist, come back to report and are told that the behaviorist must have it wrong? Is it that hard to believe that this dog may simply be a dangerous animal with a screw loose?
> 
> This is a hard enough situation and I hope you, the OP, are able to find a solid support system no matter what decision you have to make


 I think at 6 months you should atleast give it to 8 months at the bottom, and even then they are so pups. If it can be turned around nows the time to do it!


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## harmony

I have seen dogs trained untill two or three with problems and pretty much after four yrs it might still have one, if it is that kind of dog.


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## GatorBytes

*:thinking:*

*The Influence of Nutrition on Aggression*

*From the Animal Medical Centre of California*

Article - News And Press - Animal Medical Center - Los Angeles, California

Aggression is a topic that has been much investigated in behavioral research. Despite the large number of publications dealing with this subject, many aspects are still not understood. Recent studies have provided new *endocrine and neurophysiologic* insights into the underlying mechanisms resulting in the expression of aggression

In turn, unrestrained aggression, impulsivity and risk-taking behavior are *associated with low central serotonin activity*. *Other centrally active molecules,* such as vasopressin or *dopamine are also key players in mediating aggressiveness*

*Clinical evidence* indicates that, for some persons, *diet may be associated with, or exacerbate, such conditions as learning disability, poor impulse control, intellectual deficits, a tendency toward violence, hyperactivity*, and alcoholism and/or drug abuse, *and behaviors associated with delinquent behavior*. Recent studies of the relationship between diet and behavior involving offender populations have yielded evidence that *a change in diet can result in significant reduction in aggressive or antisocial behavior.* *Much as humans feel offended at certain things and resort to aggression, dogs too respond similarly*. Just as certain foods do not suit humans, there are many foods that should not be fed to dogs. There’s more to antisocial behavior than nutrition, but I would argue that it is _an important missing link_*.*

*When dogs get a full complement of amino acids, it is not only calming to them,* but helps support their organs, skin, coat, eyes and brain. Meat is also rich in B vitamins and minerals, including iron (which is lacking in plant based foods). Therefore, dogs, being carnivores, need high quality protein derived from animals to remain calm *and keep blood glucose levels stable. In a process called glyconeogenesis, amino acids and fats are converted to glucose. When dogs are fed low amounts of animal based protein, they use carbohydrates for energy. But this type of energy is not consistent and the blood sugars fluctuate, by going up and then falling. This, in turn, creates mood swings.* *Creating glucose from animal based proteins and fats creates a stable blood sugar level, which keeps a dog calm and focused. Feeding a dog a diet high in carbohydrates, especially starches and grains, will simply create less focus and blood sugar spikes. *


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## piquant

Hi all,

I ran out of time to answer questions/queries and address some points in my last post, so I’ll try to do it here. 

- My pup isn’t one of those high drive, working line GSDs with a lot of independence and confidence; he’s the opposite. E.g. when my dad and I took him for walks as a young pup, one of us would duck into a shop for 5 minutes and he would react badly – excessive whining, whimpering, howling, pulling to get to us inside, wouldn’t accept any treats, etc. This happened each and every time one of us would go into a store for a few minutes and leave him waiting outside with the other person. 

- The chances of rehoming him are extremely slim. The person in charge of Staffordshire Bull Terrier recue in my state was present at the second consultation to film my dog. She said that it would take a long, long time to find the right person/people to adopt my dog. The second behaviourist is close friends with the person in charge of rehoming dogs for the German Shepherd Dog Club in my state; he said that they wouldn't accept my dog. Moreover, I can’t in good conscience rehome him; it would be irresponsible, because he’s a human aggressive fear biter, and it would cause him too much distress. He doesn’t adjust well, quickly or easily to change. E.g. a few weeks ago, I moved his crate to another room and it took him ages before he willingly went into his crate and stayed there without whining or howling. 

- The success stories are wonderful and I’m so, so happy for all of you with rehabilitated fear aggressive dogs. Thank you for sharing your stories.  But, as the behaviourists have pointed out to me, there is a huge difference between rehabilitating a dog that has strong genetics and fear aggression, and a dog with weak genetics and fear aggression. The second behaviourist said that in the latter case, the dog can meet the same person 10 times on safe terms (no touch, no talk, no eye contact; treats thrown in their direction, but no movement towards them; plenty of space/distance and patience) and react aggressively, unprovoked, each time due to their imprinted mistrust. 

- Neither of the behaviourists were quick to recommend PTS. Each said that they could and would be willing to work with me to rehabilitate him, but they were also conscious of managing my expectations and careful to warn me of the likelihood of successful management of my dog (due to his unpredictability and instability). They also took into account my personal situation, in terms of me moving away and leaving the dog, for some time, with my time strapped parents. 

- We don’t have reactive rover classes where I’m based. 

- I'm so desperate at this point that I would love Cesar Millan's help. Unfortunately, I don't think that he'll be back in Australia any time soon. 

- The recent ball and bite incident was very strange, because we had been playing with my dog for around 15 minutes beforehand with the same routine of sit and eye contact/focus without any lashing out. I love this dog, but he’s unpredictable. 

- He wasn’t leashed when we were playing fetch because he was in our backyard and we didn’t expect him to bite my dad, of all people. 

- I’ve been implementing Nothing In Life Is Free with him since we first brought him home and Mind Games, in an overt manner, for several weeks now. 

- He does play when it’s enjoyable for him (I bring out the flirt pole quite often because he loves it so much), but he never plays on his own terms and I/we always control the game, in accordance with NILIF. 

- We don’t have Schutzhund trainers where I live because it’s prohibited.

- I trust both of the behaviourists. The first one isn’t a GSD expert, but she is extremely qualified and experienced (has been a trainer and behaviourist for several decades). She actually didn’t charge me for the initial consultation or the follow up private lesson; she said that she didn’t want to take money from me after delivering such bad news. The second behaviourist is a GSD expert who specialises in training personal protection dogs and rehabilitating aggressive dogs. During the consultation, he said something very similar to this: 



selzer said:


> Your puppy is fear aggressive and has a very low threshold. There is a LOT of liability with this kind of dog. It might be that you will never be able to trust the dog completely. If you are committed to working with this puppy here is a plan with some techniques we can try to increase his confidence, work with a muzzle to socialize, and improve the leadership so that he feels safe and less likely to react.


Only, he was at pains to stress that it would take a long time (at least 12 months), a great deal of money, and even more hard work, commitment and patience before I would see even the most minor improvement.

- Yes, he likes the ball, the flirt pole, the tug and high value treats (steak, kabana, Twiggy sticks, string cheese) when we're at home, but when he's outside and/or out of his comfort zone, he could care less about the ball, the flirt, the tug or the high value treat.


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## Jag

The unpredictability I find disturbing, as well as the fact that he's gone after your dad. He stayed with your parents for awhile...so in effect, he's handler aggressive also. With no schutzhund help and what your behaviorists said combined with the laws where you live, you're in a pickle. He'd pretty much have to be in the muzzle nearly all the time, since he'd go after your dad as well as others. You can give it more time, go down the path of working with him and see what you come up with. However, that decision is YOURS and YOURS alone. You've met with behaviorist. You've tried some different things, I believe. 

My dog is not your dog. No two are exactly alike. I wish there was a test for "there's a screw loose" that was 100% accurate. After seven years of working with my dog, there was no improvement. However, I can't say with complete confidence that your dog would be the same. If I were in your shoes, I'd go with the behaviorists' opinions because they evaluated your dog. If you want to get another opinion, that's completely reasonable. Yes, six months is very young. Yes, some dogs can be managed. Yes, some dogs never get any better. Any who say that there's ALWAYS a chance for improvement in a young pup never met my bitch. No one walks in your shoes but you. I just wanted to let you know that whatever you decide for your dog, you'll have my total support. Living with a dog like this isn't easy. There's always some new thing to try. It could work. It may not. There are just no easy answers. However, I've been in your position, and I'd say trust your behaviorists if they are experienced with this. No one here has seen your dog or lived with it. Only you have, and only you can make any decisions or know what's best for your pup.


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## cliffson1

I made it a point not to mention PTS, but I have encountered six month old puppies that were so dangerous from FA that it was best for the dog and society. The lengths that would be necessary to maintain the dog would be not only extraordinary, such a societal deprivation on the dog that it is cruel and leads to increasing the behavior. When family members and routine visitors are susceptible to unprovoked attacks this is dangerous and liable on owners part. This is not an issue for feelings or speculation....this dog already has history of biting people and from description of owner this will continue. If this was just weak nerves or trying to increase confidence, then increased ball play or flirtpoles could be an asset. But when dogs start INDISCRIMINATELY biting people, PTS is always a consideration depending on causation and severity....and it takes first hand assessments to ascertain these items. Stick to experts on this, the stakes are too high. Again, not advocating PTS, but some of the advice given here is wishful thinking, and this situation is much too serious for that!


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## JakodaCD OA

I also don't like to immediately say PTS because I do think alot of dogs atleast deserve a chance, however, I am with cliff, if a dog of mine no matter the age, started nailing family members, ones they are totally familiar with for no reason (reason only known to the dog), that is NOT going to fly with me at all. When you have unpredictabily it can be even worse.


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## PupperLove

I'm so sorry. This kind of stuff DOES happen with puppies, and I would trust the behaviorists and trust your gut. IF he can be re-habilitated, that is a decision and a huge undertaking that can be done only by you, since he is not really 'rehomable' in good conscience. You will have to decide if it's worth putting your life on hold for and putting others at risk for since he is _your_ dog and really should not be passed on to others. If it's not something you are willing to do, then the kindest thing to do would be to put him down. Having a dog should be fun and shouldn't be a burden on your life. It's a very serious, personal decision only you can make. And since you have been doing things that would normally be suggested on this board, I hope that everyone here has the decency to respect your decision whatever that may be. Hugs to you!


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## msvette2u

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also don't like to immediately say PTS because I do think alot of dogs atleast deserve a chance, however, I am with cliff, if a dog of mine no matter the age, started nailing family members, ones they are totally familiar with for no reason (reason only known to the dog), that is NOT going to fly with me at all. *When you have unpredictabily it can be even worse.*


It is bizarre to say the least...but it seems that some of the things the OP and family are doing are in direct conflict with DEescalation and serve only to escalate.
If a behaviorist is telling them "make the dog sit and look you in the eye before tossing the ball", that may be in direct conflict with fixing the situation and in fact making the situation worse.

After seeing the "trainers" in our area telling people to squirt fearful dogs with a squirt bottle, I trust NO trainer just because they are a trainer. Behaviorists may be the same, who knows? There's no real credentials one has to have to (as selzer puts it) hang up a shingle!

LEASHING A DOG to have control over it is not something fluffy or wishful thinking. If you cannot leash this dog to control it, and have control over it by leashing it, that is a problem.
But most owners can leash and avoid being bitten with the aide of that leash.

I had a very cat aggressive Chow here and I had this dog on a slip lead, the type vet clinics give you when you forgot yours. What's that, 4' of leash, including the slip part that goes around their neck?? I had this Chow on a leash like that and when he saw my cat, he flipped out - and then promptly redirected ON ME! I managed to not be bitten although he was going for my arms and legs. 
I leaned the dog out away from me so he wouldn't nail me and stood as far away as possible, and by the time I got him back to his kennel run, he had tried 3-4 times to redirect on me.

I left the danged leash on him, didn't dare try to get it back off after that display!

Anyway my point is, leave the leash on this puppy, take control over him with his leash and a sturdy collar, don't mince about but definitely don't let yourself or another person be bitten.

It can be done - and if he's too unsafe to even do that, then you will need to think about another option but do try leashing and not allowing him access to people with his mouth, using that leash.


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## San

So sorry you have to go through this, you are definitely between a rock and a hard place 

Since you are ultimately liable for the actions of this puppy, IMO, you need to do what is most practical and feasible for yourself and the people around you. No one knows your situation/abilities/amount of resources better than yourself. 

Hugs to you :hugs:


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## Sunflowers

If a puppy is this aggressive before he even reaches full puberty, I can only imagine how he will be when he does.

I would decide not only considering those around me, but also taking into consideration the quality of life this dog is destined to have.


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## GatorBytes

About Thyroid from Dr. Jean Dodd's re: blood work your vet suggested 

*Aberrant Behavior and Thyroid Dysfunction
*
*Dopamine and serotonin receptors have been clearly demonstrated to be involved in
aggressive pathways in the CNS.* Hypothyroid rats have increased turnover of serotonin and
dopamine receptors, and an increased sensitivity to ambient neurotransmitter levels.

*Investigators in recent years have noted the sudden onset of behavioral changes in dogs around
the time of puberty or as young adults*. Most of the dogs have been purebreds or crossbreeds,
with an apparent predilection for certain breeds. For a significant proportion of these animals,
neutering does not alter the symptoms and in some cases the behaviors intensify. The seasonal
effects of allergies to inhalants and ectoparasites such as fleas and ticks, followed by the onset of
skin and coat disorders including pyoderma, allergic dermatitis, alopecia, and intense itching,
have also been linked to changes in behavior.

Many of these dogs belong to a certain group of breeds or dog families susceptible to a variety of
immune problems and allergies (e.g. Golden Retriever, Akita, Rottweiler, Doberman Pinscher,
English Springer Spaniel, Shetland Sheepdog, and German Shepherd Dog). *The clinical signs in
these animals, before they show the sudden onset of behavioral aggression, can include minor
problems such as inattentiveness, fearfulness*, seasonal allergies, skin and coat disorders, and
intense itching. These may be early subtle signs of thyroid dysfunction, with no other typical
signs of thyroid disease being manifested.


Thyroid Disease and Autoimmune Thyroiditis


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## cliffson1

Indiscriminate biting can occur on a leash....somebody asked what I suggest? I can't suggest WHAT to do because I am not there firsthand....and anybody that suggests what to do in this situation really doesn't know what they are talking about. But if I could see the dog firsthand, I could give you some options based on experience in doing these type of assessments. I have seen a lot of trainers that could assess dogs like this and be spot on in recommending the best option for the specific dog and the specific home. Use professional help....good luck!


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## msvette2u

> Indiscriminate biting can occur on a leash


While this is true, you have a lot more options if the dog does try to take a lunge, than should you have no leash whatsoever.



> Use professional help....good luck!


Professional help doesn't equal good/knowledgeable help, unfortunately


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## cliffson1

@ jacoda....I agree with you and hate to see a dog PTS if they can be salvaged...but their is just as much responsibility to society and the breed as their is to an individual dog. There are more and more restrictions being placed on this breed by governments and organizations. These restrictions are being levied because of indiscriminate biting, whether it is because of fear based aggression or inexperienced owners/handlers, the bottom line is every dog is not able to be rehabilitated or placed in experienced home. The result is the reputation of this breed temperament and liability wise is sinking lower and lower leading to bans and restrictions being imposed on the breed.jmo


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree cliff, unfortunately I read to many threads, dogs like this, that more than likely I would not want to manage or live with and know what I would do Very hard for someone to hear it because they love their dog and are hoping for an answer to fix it. 
some dogs can't be fixed.

I hate seeing what is happening to this breed I love, I feel so blessed that tho I don't have perfect dogs, I had/have ones that have been sound and balanced. Hope it continues that way I know they are out there


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## msvette2u

Having lived with a poorly bred GSD mix, and knowing how awful a low threshold for frustration is (he had low to no frustration tolerance), I concur completely. 

I just question how sound the advice is that this OP has received thus far from the behaviorists 

Some things as Jax pointed out, may be in direct conflict with what this dog actually needs.

But we may never know.


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## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Some things as Jax pointed out, may be in direct conflict with what this dog actually needs.


I just want to clarify my post. It was not intended in any way to give advice, it was simply to put a possible scenario to the incidence from my limited knowledge. My ONLY advice in this situation, because they are already going to see a vet behaviorist which would be a THIRD opinion, is to make sure the person has experience with German Shepherds. 

The only reason I say that is we, in the US, have a "behaviorist" on every street corner. Do a 2 week course in Ohio and you are a dog trainer! It's possible Australia has similar "experts". 

I am going to keep my opinion on this puppy to myself because first, I have never seen the puppy, and second, I'm not sure what I would do in this situation. It's a very hard decision either way and must be incredibly hard for the OP.


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## msvette2u

> Looking a dog in the eyes is a challenge. So by playing ball with a dog like this you set up a situation where you are building excitement by throwing the ball so he's already a bit out of control. Remember at 6 mths he is not mature. Then your dad looked him in the eye and challenged a dog that was already at his thresh hold for excitement.
> 
> I'm not saying his reaction was normal, because I'm not sure it was. I am going to say I think it was a situation where he could only fail. Dogs have fight or flight instinct. If I stared my dog down, she would lower her head and turn it away from me in a submissive gesture. If you stared my dog down, you would have a barking, teeth baring mess coming at you.



No, this is what I mean.
If you do "A" with this dog, instead of "B", when "B" type playing could make things better, but you didn't know that and are instead doing "A activities, then it could make things worse.

As you said, "the dog could only fail' in this case. But you're right, in that we don't know, we can't know...however, I'm suggesting that maybe more research, and a new/different trainer would help. 

Professional help is good but if they are also misreading the dog, it could make things worse.

I don't know. But at 6mos., it's worth at try?


----------



## sparra

Who would have thought owning a GSD would be so complicated.
*Don't walk the dog away from home.
Don't play fetch unless leashed.
Muzzle the dog at all times around your family.
Don't over look the fact that the dog could have issues with it's mother.:crazy:
Try anti anxiety medication.*
Geez.....some people just want to enjoy their dog.....not worry about it attacking family members.
The OP has been to two behaviorists one who is experienced with the breed which over here is not an easy task......is he supposed to keep looking for someone until they tell him what some of you want to hear???
Time to stop pointing the finger at the OP and how he has managed this troubled dog and maybe start considering the fact that this dog is not wired right.....something he has been told by people who have actually seen the dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

sparra good post


----------



## Jack's Dad

sparra said:


> Who would have thought owning a GSD would be so complicated.
> *Don't walk the dog away from home.
> Don't play fetch unless leashed.
> Muzzle the dog at all times around your family.
> Don't over look the fact that the dog could have issues with it's mother.:crazy:
> Try anti anxiety medication.*
> Geez.....some people just want to enjoy their dog.....not worry about it attacking family members.
> The OP has been to two behaviorists one who is experienced with the breed which over here is not an easy task......is he supposed to keep looking for someone until they tell him what some of you want to hear???
> Time to stop pointing the finger at the OP and how he has managed this troubled dog and maybe start considering the fact that this dog is not wired right.....something he has been told by people who have actually seen the dog.


I agree sparra.

I believe having a dog should be a win/win for both the dog and the owner.

Not problem free but overall a plus for owner and dog. Otherwise what's the point?


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## sparra

cliffson1 said:


> @ jacoda....I agree with you and hate to see a dog PTS if they can be salvaged...but their is just as much responsibility to society and the breed as their is to an individual dog. There are more and more restrictions being placed on this breed by governments and organizations. These restrictions are being levied because of indiscriminate biting, whether it is because of fear based aggression or inexperienced owners/handlers, the bottom line is every dog is not able to be rehabilitated or placed in experienced home. The result is the reputation of this breed temperament and liability wise is sinking lower and lower leading to bans and restrictions being imposed on the breed.jmo


I missed this post before and just wanted to say how spot on it is.
Here in Australia we already have FAR stricter laws pertaining to aggressive/dangerous dogs than you do over in the states. If this dog does something worse than just biting the OP's dad (which in itself is enough for me) it will make headlines all around the country. Any dog attack over here is big news now with all the new laws. This effects me and how my dog, who has a wonderful temperament is perceived. That may sound selfish but it is reality.


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## Twyla

sparra said:


> Who would have thought owning a GSD would be so complicated.
> *Don't walk the dog away from home.
> Don't play fetch unless leashed.
> Muzzle the dog at all times around your family.
> Don't over look the fact that the dog could have issues with it's mother.:crazy:
> Try anti anxiety medication.*
> Geez.....some people just want to enjoy their dog.....not worry about it attacking family members.
> The OP has been to two behaviorists one who is experienced with the breed which over here is not an easy task......is he supposed to keep looking for someone until they tell him what some of you want to hear???
> Time to stop pointing the finger at the OP and how he has managed this troubled dog and maybe start considering the fact that this dog is not wired right.....something he has been told by people who have actually seen the dog.


A couple of years ago I would have said this was right.

Now after working with Woolf, who is on his 3rd behaviorist, and is now meeting people, and now is not having to be muzzled in most cases, and now is not lunging at people, who is now asking for the scratches, to be petted and daily seeing more improvement; I am inclined to disagree with above statement. 

Woolf is a dog who has had trainers we had spoken with, did the evaluations that recommended he be pts. It took locating an experienced behaviorist that had a full set of tools. Not every one that claims they are a behaviorist is one, learned that the hard way.

In the end, it is still a decision that only the OP can make.


----------



## cliffson1

@Twyla.....I am very happy for your situation....sincerely! But I have had two situations in past year in which I recommended to owners that I didn't think things would work ( being polite), and in both cases they chose to carry on. ( in one case the lady told me the friend who worked in a rescue and talked her into taking the dog was blowing in her ear that I was overstating the problem) in both cases the dogs gave very serious bites in next twelve months,(in the resue case it was husband that was sent to hospital), and the authorities put both dogs to sleep. Both owners informed me after the dogs were put down and expressed wishes that they had listened. Now it's possible that your situation happens more often than my situation, but it seems to me that when it comes to someone being potentially injured and it can reasonably be foreseen....you have to err on the side of safety. Yet, I acknowledge your success and wish they all ended that way....but in my limited experiences it seems more prudent to be cautious.
Also, it is rare for me to feel that a dog should be PTS, but when it is an accident waiting to happen......I would feel awful encouraging somebody to continue and something very serious occurred.....but that's me. Maybe a third opinion in this case will see something the others didn't and nothing happens in between.


----------



## Twyla

cliffson1 said:


> @Twyla.....I am very happy for your situation....sincerely! But I have had two situations in past year in which I recommended to owners that I didn't think things would work ( being polite), and in both cases they chose to carry on. ( in one case the lady told me the friend who worked in a rescue and talked her into taking the dog was blowing in her ear that I was overstating the problem) in both cases the dogs gave very serious bites in next twelve months,(in the resue case it was husband that was sent to hospital), and the authorities put both dogs to sleep. Both owners informed me after the dogs were put down and expressed wishes that they had listened. Now it's possible that your situation happens more often than my situation, but it seems to me that when it comes to someone being potentially injured and it can reasonably be foreseen....you have to err on the side of safety. Yet, I acknowledge your success and wish they all ended that way....but in my limited experiences it seems more prudent to be cautious. Another case of being polite  Your experience is much more then limited
> Also, it is rare for me to feel that a dog should be PTS, but when it is an accident waiting to happen......I would feel awful encouraging somebody to continue and something very serious occurred.....but that's me. Maybe a third opinion in this case will see something the others didn't and nothing happens in between.


You are always so polite when telling someone they are wrong  My point is there are occasions when the recommendation of pts is given to quickly and it does take that 3rd opinion.

But again, this is a decision for the OP to make.


----------



## sparra

Twyla said:


> A couple of years ago I would have said this was right.
> 
> Now after working with Woolf, who is on his 3rd behaviorist, and is now meeting people, and now is not having to be muzzled in most cases, and now is not lunging at people, who is now asking for the scratches, to be petted and daily seeing more improvement; I am inclined to disagree with above statement.
> 
> Woolf is a dog who has had trainers we had spoken with, did the evaluations that recommended he be pts. It took locating an experienced behaviorist that had a full set of tools. Not every one that claims they are a behaviorist is one, learned that the hard way.
> 
> In the end, it is still a decision that only the OP can make.


I too am happy that you have had success.....but no doubt it has been a long road you have taken and even though your dog is at a point where things are much much better no doubt you will always have to be cautious with him.
But not everyone nor every dog is the right, shall we say candidate, for such rehabilitation and I for one would be more comfortable with taking advice from someone who has actually seen my dog and it's behavior than someone on an internet forum who is really just guessing especially when there is big risk to others around me.JMO.


----------



## cliffson1

Well,....I guess I could just agree with you on this.


----------



## GatorBytes

Yep. Don't take advice online...seek an expert in "Animal Psychology" 


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----------



## sparra

LOL.....how much time did you waste of your life "googling" for that....for heavens sake.....


----------



## GatorBytes

sparra said:


> LOL.....how much time did you waste of your life "googling" for that....for heavens sake.....


Less time then denouncing others opinions, experience and advice in an effort to help a distraught dog owner make informed decisions where a dogs life is hanging in the balance.


----------



## sparra

piquant said:


> - The chances of rehoming him are extremely slim. The person in charge of Staffordshire Bull Terrier recue in my state was present at the second consultation to film my dog. She said that it would take a long, long time to find the right person/people to adopt my dog. The second behaviourist is close friends with the person in charge of rehoming dogs for the German Shepherd Dog Club in my state; he said that they wouldn't accept my dog. Moreover, I can’t in good conscience rehome him; it would be irresponsible, because he’s a human aggressive fear biter, and it would cause him too much distress.
> - *Neither of the behaviourists were quick to recommend PTS. Each said that they could and would be willing to work with me to rehabilitate him, but they were also conscious of managing my expectations and careful to warn me of the likelihood of successful management of my dog (due to his unpredictability and instability). They also took into account my personal situation, in terms of me moving away and leaving the dog, for some time, with my time strapped parents. *
> *- I trust both of the behaviourists. The first one isn’t a GSD expert, but she is extremely qualified and experienced (has been a trainer and behaviourist for several decades). She actually didn’t charge me for the initial consultation or the follow up private lesson; she said that she didn’t want to take money from me after delivering such bad news. The second behaviourist is a GSD expert who specialises in training personal protection dogs and rehabilitating aggressive dogs.*
> *Only, he was at pains to stress that it would take a long time (at least 12 months), a great deal of money, and even more hard work, commitment and patience before I would see even the most minor improvement.*


My last post here.....reading the above sounds to me like he is getting some good sound advice.....just maybe they do know a thing or two....but then again they are AUSTRALIAN....


----------



## Momto2GSDs

I would like to share a possibility, not start a war. I have scanned the pages of this post and I am not a trainer but agree that some type of training is in order. I’m just wondering why the suggestions about nutrition, vaccines, supplements and homeopathic’s from Gator-Bytes are not being considered? A holistic approach and training could mean a world of difference for this pup! I read that rabies vaccines are not given in Australia but what about other vaccines? It’s not just the rabies vaccine that can cause problems. With what and how much vaccines has the pup had? Exactly what does he eat and what treats does he receive? Some have suggested “he’s wired wrong” but why not try some other suggestions too before taking drastic measures? I also have had an aggressive dog, but was able to manage her with the above. Isn’t it worth a try? 
Consider the possibilities! 
Thunder and Noise Phobia caused by vaccines? : Whole Dog News
VACCINATION AS A CAUSE OF BEHAVIOR CHANGES 
Patricia Jordan, DVM, VND, CVA, CTCVM & Herbology, is a vaccination expert and author of the book: Mark of the Beast. 
She writes: “My experience as a practicing veterinarian for over 25 years, matched by Dr. Stephen Blake (37 years) and Dr. Richard Pitcairn (40 years) — has been that of watching vaccines result in disease in animals — and behavioral changes.

Those involved in training puppies and in the socialization of dogs *have linked the coincidence of behavioral changes in some dogs that follows the puppyhood series of vaccinations.*
One thing I am POSITIVE about: if animal behaviorists are not thinking and understanding [the vaccination-behavior link], they are way off the mark in what they are understanding, recording, teaching and advising clients.
You should find one of the more highly attuned veterinary homeopaths to expand on this level of behavioral damage from vaccines issues. “

*Martin Deely - Professional Dog Trainer: How a Dog’s Diet Can Affect Behavior: Your dog could encounter hormonal imbalance and an increase in thyroid abnormalities for some dog breeds. With today’s technology, we do have the advantage of being able to identify these abnormalities much more easily and conveniently. Fearfulness, aggression, and altered brain function are some of the symptoms of hypothyroid disease. I personally had a young pup that tested normal, but she was continuously losing her fur and was not acting as I expected. A discussion with a good friend, who is also an excellent nutritionist and has vast experience both in training, behavior and physical causes of bad behavior, advised me to change my dogs diet and to ask my vet if he would consider a low dose thyroid medication. You could also ask your vet to expand the thyroid panel, before attempting thyroid drug trial. (Such a trial can have hyperthyroid effects if there really is normal thyroid function). My vet agreed and recommended a low dose, which improved my dog’s condition dramatically over two weeks. *


----------



## Momto2GSDs

Supplement that I use: This has the Ashwaganda in it that was mentioned.
Nutri-Calm by RX: $26 for 50 caps: NutriCalm for Pets (Dogs) 50 Capsules by RX Vitamins 
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Increasing dietary tryptophan through supplementation can increase the amount of serotonin in the brain, which has been shown to reduce aggression and improve recovery from stress in some animals. Even though tryptophan is found in protein-containing foods, it is in relatively small supply compared to other LNAA. And in fact, a high protein meal actually decreases the ratio of tryptophan to other LNAA. This is why dietary supplementation is recommended. 
Tyrosine, another amino acid, has also been shown to have a beneficial effect on stress in humans and other animals. 
Unlike tryptophan, tyrosine is usually found in high concentrations in high protein meals.”
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L-Tryptophan (free from amino acid) 150 mg 
Valerian Root Extract (valeriana officianlis) 50 mg 
Ashwaganda Extract (withania soniferum) 50 mg 
Catnip extract (nepeta cati) 50 mg 
L-Theanine (Suntheanine brand) 25 mg 
Calcium (aspartate) 30 mg 
Magnesium (aspartate) 30 mg


----------



## selzer

The pup was seen by a couple of animal behaviorists. I am shocked that no one has brought up the thread where Cesar Millan, possibly the most celebrated animal behaviorist, got himself bit over a dog that was resource guarding its dish. Cesar has rehabed maybe hundreds, maybe more dogs, and has a pack of 40 or so, various breeds, written a book (at least one), has a television show, and has his own line of doggy products. And many of us could read that dog better than he did (yes, after the fact), but still, many of us would have never did what he did and disagree fully with what he did (though I wouldn't necessarily call it abuse). 

If the OP is in contact with good animal behaviorists, they should be teaching them canine body language, and how canines react to OUR body language. It IS about thresholds. ALL dogs read our body language, and not all of them react, some choose to avoid confrontation. Confrontation is NOT always about who is king of the mountain. Confrontation often happens when a dog does not see any alternative. 

If aggression is happening due to fear, lack of trust in his owner/handlers, and a lack of positive experiences to draw on, the answer is not to dominate the dog and provide crisp training and harsh corrections, in short it will not work to show the dog who is the boss. Just because a dog is fearful does not mean it cannot be worked with and cannot become with time and consistent handling an excellent pet.

People would be horrified if they heard of someone euthanizing a puppy because its ears did not go up. But that pup may not provide what the owner wants. Why waste time, and kennel space, and training, and veterinary cost, and food on a dog that won't pan out? But over and over I hear people encouraging people to euthanize a dog due to weak nerves. People who train K-9s, or for schutzhund champions, are not going to waste energy on a puppy that will never pan out, meaning they will never be accepted into a k9 program, or make a schutzhund champion. Some of these probably have very little experience working with a dog with weak-nerves, because they just give the owners the bad news, or if the dog is theirs, they will do what they feel is the humane thing for the puppy, and the right thing for the breed and simply euthanize it. And that doesn't mean they don't feel bad about it, I expect they do.

And yes, I know their are TONS of dogs from schutzhund homes, or k9 wash-outs that make excellent pets, but these dogs generally just don't have the full package, and perhaps there are plenty of them out there, why waste resources on a dog that will require delicate handling, when there are more than enough pets created that have a decent temperament?

This (the above) is why I don't just go with the assessment of the behaviorists. 

One of these has a claim to fame that they work with pit bulls. Well that is supposed to impress. But pit bulls were not as a breed bred to be human-aggressive. So seeing a pit bull that is, well, that might be a whole different story than a GSD that is willing to bite humans for whatever reason. GSDs do have aggression as a part of the whole package, and some of that aggression can be channeled toward humans and still be well within the breed's standard, where pits might be expected to show dog-aggressiveness, but not people-aggressiveness and still not have wires crossed. 

The other behaviorist is involved with GSDs. I don't know what type of GSDs, and I don't know if they have ever worked successfully with a soft and reactive dog. I am not sure your dog IS soft. That's the thing. The behaviorist that had tried to work with my dog's former owners told her that she was very hard and needed an experienced handler. This dog is in fact very soft. I am talking about their ability to take corrections. A soft dog can be a dream to train because you don't need to raise your voice and a little moderate praise can work wonders. But they can also be the devil to train because they may not be interested in toys and treats, and if you do go overboard, they will shut down, or they will revert because they start losing confidence in themselves and you. Soft AND reactive, can be a liability and can be a challenge. I don't know that they are impossible though. I expect that if you treat a soft/reactive dog the way you would treat a hard/reactive dog I think it could make things a lot worse, and yes, within a year, I would not be surprised if the dog bites someone and ends up euthanized. 

It's sad to put a puppy down. I understand that the resources may not be available to deal with the situation. And I understand that the dog is a bit of a liability. I would be interested at how each of the bites rated on the bite-scale that has been around on these threads. And I think if you are willing to give the puppy 2-3 months, and try something different, check out some of the shy-dog links that JeanB has posted, read a few books by Jan Fennel, and try to approach the dog from a different view point. 

My first dog was a very hard working line/American BYB pet line dog. He was aggressive, and very stubborn, hard to train, etc. He learned not to do anything until I was ready to kill him. My second dog was soft. And I tried to do with her as I did with him, and she would run and hide when I got the leash out. I was beside myself. The obedience trainer wanted a 30 minute down stay, and she did it the very first time, but after that she did not do it the second time and I yelled at her and you would think I beat her. I started having problems with any training, and finally one day I decided I needed to figure this out, or I would ruin my girl. I went down to the bare fact that this was a dog that wanted to please me. I based everything off that fact, and I completely stopped any type of correction (not what I do with all my dogs, but for this dog I did). If we didn't get something the first time, we just tried again, maybe a different way. She did not care about playing with toys or treats, but I found that praise did work with her. In the course of that one set of classes -- two months tops, she went from shutting down and hiding when she saw the leash, to being the top of her class and could have passed her CD at that point, she worked perfectly on lead, off lead, all the different parts. And she was my heart-dog, and after a couple of years without her, I still think of her every single day.

Sometimes, we need to throw up our hands and just decide that what we have tried isn't working, what else is there? Is this dog stubborn and hard, or is this dog soft and shutting down because she lacks confidence and is afraid of doing the wrong thing? 

And sometimes we want a dog that will want to go everywhere with us, be an agility champion, walk off lead on wooded trails, guard the house. And sometimes the dog we get is a couch potato, or has a bad hip, or runs deer, or will lead the burglars to the jewelry box. Sometimes we have a pup at seven months old whose ears do not stand. Sometimes we have a dog that is fearful and reactive. 

The choice to work with this dog and how you want to try to work with this dog is up to you, you have to live with the consequences if this dog bites someone else. None of us wants that to happen, it isn't good for our breed's reputation, and the problems that happen when our breed gets charged for biting. If you choose to euthanize this puppy, that is because you see the puppy every day and know him best, and you know your limitations, no one should judge that decision. And it doesn't mean you don't love the dog. It can be a very loving thing to do, if the pup is painfully fearful as one owner's dog in this thread.


----------



## cliffson1

I have never seen a Sch or LE person put a dog down for weak nerves.(I'm sure there is one or two cases, but I have known tons of sport people over the years and they usually rehome the dog in a pet home.) NOW I have seen dogs put down by sport and pet people that were indiscriminate biters.....a very big difference. Now often these type biters have weak nerves, but sometimes there are other reasons, but the bottom line is they are dangerous and society has deemed that people should not have to be bit without provocation. But to just put a dog down for weak nerves....the only time I have seen this is when the nerves are so weak that the Dog's quality of life is compromised....similar to putting down a dog with crippling HD.
Now I don't know if I am a behaviorist or not....lol...I can train dogs, but I can assure you that I have tools in my tool chest for strong dogs or soft dogs. When I am called for an intervention it doesn't make a difference if the dog is soft or hard or weak nerved......all of these types can be worked with successfully but often different approaches are needed depending on the dog and the cause of the problem. If a dog behaviorist or trainers doesn't vary their approach with the needs of the dog I think they are lacking in skills! Not saying there are not poor trainers cause their are poor everything in some capacity, but I find there are more limited owners trying to train then trainers not knowing how to read the dogs situation.


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## msvette2u

> If the OP is in contact with good animal behaviorists, they should be teaching them canine body language, and how canines react to OUR body language. It IS about thresholds. ALL dogs read our body language, and not all of them react, some choose to avoid confrontation. Confrontation is NOT always about who is king of the mountain. Confrontation often happens when a dog does not see any alternative.


Ah _this_ is what I've been trying to say...all I hear is "the dog did this/that/the other". I used to get on scene to a dog-human bite and ask 1st thing, "what were _you_ doing when the dog bit you??"

If the dog is truly unstable then by all means, euth. 
But I'm truly curious if we could see a video and maybe see if a piece or two is missing from the picture. 

_I find there are more limited owners trying to train then trainers not knowing how to read the dogs situation._
:thumbup:


----------



## GatorBytes

piquant said:


> As some of you may be aware from my previous thread (http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...8-5-month-old-fear-aggressive-protective.html), I have a fear aggressive (now) 6-month-old GSD.
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to seek advice here. *I’m hoping that there are some members who have been in a similar position and can guide me.*
> 
> *I still have hope in my dog,* even though I’ve been told time and time again that it will always be a case of two steps forward, three steps back with him. At the same time, I know his limitations and my limitations. *But, I love him and the thought of putting him down is tearing me up inside.* I’m just at a loss for what to do. Each day, I decide on one course of action and then change my mind.


Just to remind...this person has feelings and this thread has been smothered by opinions of WHY to put it down. Have you noticed they have't replied in like 3 days (approx.)....it's not about them anymore. Shame.

OP - I hope the veterinary behaviourist can shed some light on the phsylogical aspects and not the text book definition of a lost cause. And when/if this proffessional advises the dog may need some chemical altering...take this info and PM Momto2GSD's...Prozac and xanax are not a solution either. Diet, homeopathic detox, calming herbs to reduce the dogs anxiety spike (when stress hormones are released)...will set the dog up for success. HE will be able learn to trust if he is a much calmer place.


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## cliffson1

Shame on what Gatorbytes? I have been very active in this thread....show me one time I have advocated putting the dog down....I have not advocated no particular strategy because I don't have underlying causation to determine WHAT to do. I don't KNOW what will set this dog up for success and neither does anyone else who has not seen the dog in person. Heck, some of what is suggested here MAY NOT be the issue and why the owner is following that course the problem could get worse. I hear two divergent themes here, one is to seek professional help either medical or practical to assess options, and two, specific courses of action based on not having assessed the dog to see if the specific course recommended addresses the causation. PTS, is only mentioned as a possible option if certain things are too severe as determined by in person evaluation, or an action by the dog that may take this out of the hands of the owner. This gives a whole new meaning to giving a dog a bone and not letting it go. Nobody has advocated against your approach, but there still remains a liability issue that some conviently fail to address like it doesn't exist.....to me that is most important part of this problem because if it continues the decision will be taken out of the owners hands!


----------



## Castlemaid

Gatorbyte, there is also the real possibility that this dog is just not wired right. Happens. I don't really see the point of trying to shame people who are all offering advice based on their experience and knowledge. It doesn't sound to me like this pup is fearful or stressed - something seems to be off with this dog. We can't say for sure without being there in person. 

To me, if the pup is already this aggressive and unpredictable at six months old - that is not a good sign. At six months, the pup isn't old enough to have such drastic behaviours come out from hormones, cortison, food toxins affecting the brain - at six months, it is still the basic temperament showing itself. 

I think the last thing anyone here wants to see is a six month old being put down for the wrong reasons. I hope the OP will find knowledgeable people that have actually seen the dog and evaluated it to guide them in their decision.


----------



## Jax08

cliffson1 said:


> but there *still remains a liability issue that some conviently fail to address like it doesn't exist*.....to me that is most important part of this problem because if it continues the decision will be taken out of the owners hands!


Here is where my issue lies. In my opinion, again with a very limited knowledge of aggression such as this, there has to be something wrong with a dog that will attack an owner, especially while playing. Ive had many dogs, a couple HA and some DA, but I've never had a fear of them attacking me especially as a puppy.

This issue alone leads me to say that there is something seriously wrong that can NOT be diagnosed over the internet. The OP needs to follow the course they are on...which has been stated as taking the dog to a vet behaviorist and they've already had the dog assessed by two different behaviorist that sound like they have plenty of experience with dogs. The vet should be able to run tests and make sure nothing physical is going on. If the OP chooses to follow a homeopathic approach, which I certainly would, to give the puppy all possible chances at fixing this before making decision, then great.

But all we can do, from our cozy computer chairs, is throw options out there and personal experiences for the OP. We can't shout over everyone else and stomp our feet because the OP hasn't responded to us or followed our advice...it doesn't do the OP any good and everything just gets lost.


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## cliffson1

Carefully read the OP's post on page 4. I consider all aspects when I give advice because I feel a responsibility for what I say. There is a wealth of information in that post both overt and underlying. You can't pick the part that supports your position and ignore the rest....THAT is NOT a recipe for success.


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## Jax08

Are you speaking to me, Cliff? Because if so, I'm agreeing with you.:thinking:


----------



## Sunflowers

GatorBytes said:


> Just to remind...this person has feelings and this thread has been smothered by opinions of WHY to put it down. Have you noticed they have't replied in like 3 days (approx.)....it's not about them anymore. Shame.


Could be only that the OP is a good listener. 

When I asked a question about Hans vomiting, I paid attention and read all the replies carefully and with interest, but didn't see the point of replying to all the ideas tossed around. Especially since I had no idea what to reply to something like, say, "maybe he has mega esophagus."

Ultimately, I utilized some of the advice I received and solved the problem.

Then, I posted an update. Great stuff, if you ask me!


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## cliffson1

No Jax...lol...I don't know how to put quotes in parenthesis....lol I understand what your saying. I just think that post needs to be read objectively a couple times to sink in the depth of what we are discussing. And I am not talking about the opinions of the behaviorist on ruling out possibilities they aren't expert in....I 'm talking about firsthand accounts from the behaviorist and the OP that all paint the same picture. This is firsthand information from people who are the closest to the situation. Now granted, the more of these types dogs you have dealt with the clearer the picture becomes.....still there is a lot there. Now for some it may not be seen, understandable.....and for others it may be ignored, irresponsible ....but the potential liability is there and the OP needs professional help in making good decisions for her dog and herself.


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## Jax08

whew!! lol...I was seriously confused!


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## msvette2u

> Prozac and xanax are not a solution either. Diet, homeopathic detox, calming herbs to reduce the dogs anxiety spike (when stress hormones are released)..


Thing is...how do you know they are not?? It is ridiculous to claim about a dog you know nothing about, that pharmaceuticals aren't the answer and some herb is!

I've stated before and I'll say it again, when up against proven treatment for anxiety in dogs, I'd choose a pill that's been studied, and _proven to be effective_, over some tea any day.
Because there's perfectly normal things that we could eat and drink, things that are healthy for us, that will _kill_ a dog, I can think of 5 right off the bat. Dozens of things humans normally consume safely, are _deadly_ to dogs. 

Dogs are not simply small humans with fur and should not be treated as such.

So...shame on _who_??

**When studying melatonin use in dogs, I found some very alarming things, and I have an unopened bottle of melatonin now on my counter, I will not give my dog.


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## GatorBytes

Sorry, it's a shame that the thread seems to be enforcing a "dangerous dog" status and the back and forth of what some say although may not be right for them - the consensus is the behaviourist is right. You do not know this either...Then there is the "do not listen to anybody on here as they haven't seen the dog". And yeah, absolutely right! You cannot go offering training advice anymore then you can say the behaviourist is right or the dog IS not wired right and PTS. Not without looking at this from a whole. The dog may just not be "wired right"...that is what I am addressing...take the text book lost cause behavioural aspect of how people think the ideal dog should act in order for it to fit into our society and get back to it being a dog. A puppy who learned from it's littermates/mother to communicate through biting and may for whatrever reason is reverting back to that when he reaches his peak (stress). We as a society who wants to own dogs cannot have that. So we have to teach the dog this is not acceptable.

There are many variables as to what "wired wrong" may be. Could be a tumor it could be elevated glucose, thyroid. This could be bad breeding - poor diet - leading to genetic or inherant illness. It could be the dog is being pushed past his threshold and it isn't recognized in time. But a lot - NOT all comments seem to lean to PTS, dangerous, not wired right.

Cliffton's opinion gave an example of how a dog went on to bite despite his advice this dog was not going to work out. This reinforced the PTS/dangerous dog as this coming from dog trainers post. Regardless of whether it is stated "up to the OP to decide"....there is a lot of "but..." in the comments. 

I am not taking the stance that I am right either. I just wanted to provide an aspect that may not have been considered...and provided links w/o I have not jumped on here to enforce that. But the back and forth of everyone defending their comments and/or comments of success are replied with "well I can appreciate you had success with your dog...BUT..." even though the people have already taken their stance...they keep going back to enforce it. with that I would say that this thread has taken a turn from helping to just opinions.

I just wanted to help. Instead I get blatant insult (not direct), but used in bold and taken out of context. 

So sorry. It's just a shame that this dog is mostly being looked at as a liability and the only person who is right is the behaviourist. As I keep reading "listen to - they know best" Not true - nor do I. But I had success with a human aggressive dog as do a few others who posted. Mine was with natural remedies and diet....others finding the right fit - trainer - training.


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## GatorBytes

Prozac from Harvard Magazine

Rigorous studies show that the placebo effect accounts for most of the benefits | Harvard Magazine May-Jun 2000

We now have unequivocal evidence from a wide range of side effects that Prozac-type drugs impair the normal functioning of the brain,” Glenmullen says.

The FDA mandates clinical trials for antidepressants that typically last only six weeks and primarily test the drug’s efficacy and short-term safety. “We lack systematic monitoring of long-term side effects,” Glenmullen says, noting that a *former FDA head estimated that only 1 percent of long-term side effects comes to the agency’s attention*

and Quotes from human users who can actually describe what prozac has done for them

Bottom line, years later, I became so aggitated, so hyped-up that I thought I was going to murder someone. I also could not think clearly and was unable to put a sentence together!

Not only did I become suicidal on this drug

Took prozac for 10 years. 1 month taper and 80 days drug free. Symptoms are still getting worse. Ringing in my right ear and headaches on right side of head. Rapid cycling between severe depression and anxiety. Have trouble sleeping and wake every couple of hours. Withdrawals are orders of magnitudes worse than original problems
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

My personal exp. from spending 10+ yrs taking xanax for anxiety. Tried 4 diff. anti -d's...they exacerbated my anxiety (as well a whole bunch more syptoms incl. vertigo where I almost fell over my balcony)....the solution was to take more xanax even though the two together are contradicted. I however couldn't get my day underway as when I woke up the stress rush overwhelmed me...so pop a pill...all I wanted to do was sleep and had to fight overwhelming desire as wore off. I decided to try 5-HTP - tryptophan. One pill before bed, one upon rising...I had to mildly fight the urge to take xanax (which I took daily, but moderate dose, however a slight addiction). Within 30 days - no more xanax, and I had some sort of veil lift too. I suddenly didn't need to find cure for my depression. I also don't need the 5HTP either...I feel great. 

But I will note...that when I was in a hightened state of anxiety...I lashed out...The increase in adrenaline...the rush of hormones was so fast... w/o a chance to think and that is what seperates human from animal - cognative thought processes - not instincts. Now I didn't bite anybody...but I snappped at...and I was always a passive person...What I was dealing with I shouldn't have had to on my own...I was in an on and off state of mental anguish and emotional pain. So I guess I kinda feel like I know how this dog feels - if you were to put human emotion to it (to describe)


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## Castlemaid

Well of course not every drug will work for every person - it is too easy to do an internet search and find exactly what one wants to find to support one's position. Prozac is often wrongly prescribed for the wrong reasons. It can also be 100% effective with NO side effects when prescribed for the right reasons - a neurotransmitter inbalance in the brain. I can vouch for that - after years of struggling with severe depression and anxiety and being on all sorts of drugs and therapies that did not help and often made things worse, Prozac completely restored me to a state of balance. Took if for three years then stopped, and have been fine ever since, as the baseline for serotonin has been restored to normal. 

The point is, one has to look at pros and cons in a balanced way and views that are overwhelmingly biased to only one side lack credibility. For every person that has had a bad experience with Prozac or other medications, you can find just as many who found it helpful without side effects. 

Prozac is usually not prescribed for long-term for dogs anyways - just enough that they can change their mindset so that behaviour modification can start in a positive, non-anxiety riddled mind-frame, then weaned off once the dog learns different behaviours and coping methods.


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## msvette2u

Castlemaid said:


> The point is, one has to look at pros and cons in a balanced way and *views that are overwhelmingly biased to only one side lack credibility.* For every person that has had a bad experience with Prozac or other medications, you can find just as many who found it helpful without side effects.
> 
> *Prozac is usually not prescribed for long-term for dogs anyways *- just enough that they can change their mindset so that behaviour modification can start in a positive, non-anxiety riddled mind-frame, then weaned off once the dog learns different behaviours and coping methods.


Exactly...the problem with these posts is that they are so heavily biased as to be easily ignored with a 

We're working on behavioral modification here, a dog we've had 4yrs. has reached an anxiety "breaking point", and with the aide of the medication, he's doing wonderful and making improvements.

Sometimes you have to balance the brain chemicals, though, in order to reach the dog itself and work with it.

I have found over the years that _true_ anxiety (not just lack of exercise or boredom) is difficult to fix with just modification of environment and behavioral modifications.
That is...you could take a truly anxious dog and exercise him to the point of exhaustion and if it's true anxiety, they will get worked up despite being exhausted.
For a dog suffering from lack of exercise or boredom, you would exercise the living daylights out of a dog and he's calm and quiet at the end of it all.
There is a difference.


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## GatorBytes

Castlemaid said:


> Prozac is usually not prescribed for long-term for dogs anyways - just enough that they can change their mindset so that behaviour modification can start in a positive, non-anxiety riddled mind-frame, then weaned off once the dog learns different behaviours and coping methods.


Exactly why I made suggestions of detox, nutrition and herbals.

Altering the brain chemistry through metabolic channels from nature. Or altering brain chemistry with chemicals. I feel prozac has too many dangers to warrant...IMO and from exp.


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## Nickn3228

I personally would have a hard time medicating my dog. However, if all else failed, my best friend would not be put him down.









Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Jag

Just wanted to throw this out there... there are some dogs who will 'come up the leash' that are good working dogs, successful sport dogs. These dogs are in the hands of experienced people, though. This person lives in a part of Aussie land that has NO tolerance for aggressive or biting dogs. NOT the US! I will be the first to agree that too many dogs are PTS that simply need a different handler or trainer. As a 'retired' RN, I know that there are herbs that work for people. Heck, most of our medicines come from herbs and plants! However, there is a danger in treating dogs or other animals as humans. As well meaning as people are in suggesting drugs (yes, herbal medicine is still drugs), it's dangerous without guidance from a vet of some sort. 

I can also say that with my bitch, the first time she attacked, the woman had briefly looked her in the eyes to coo at her after she'd been petting her for several minutes. My dog had been sitting the whole time, very relaxed body posture, etc. I thought "it's because she looked her in the eye". Not so. Every other attempted and successful attack that followed no one had been looking her in the eye. There was never any fear. Never any staring. She never growled. She never barked. She never bared her teeth. In fact, the last person she bit she was laying down ASLEEP before she woke up and launched her attack. It was in the house, out of the house, with strangers, with those known to her... it didn't matter. There was nothing physically wrong with her. It wasn't females or males. It wasn't any one thing or another... and I can honestly tell you I tried over the years to make any sense of it at all. She had steel nerves. She was very biddable and a soft dog. She feared me. Yet she attacked right in front of me. She was the sweetest dog you've ever met.. until she wasn't. I don't claim to know the OP's pup. The only people that know that pup are the owners and the people they've worked with to try to assess the dog. I should have been sued. I know this. More than once. I put countless hours and money into trying to solve this issue. It started before she was a year old, and no one and nothing ever made it one bit better. She was the definition of "unpredictable". MOST dogs aren't like this. SOMETHING sets them off. Usually, it's fear. There's something to work with. There's SOME warning that the dog is getting uncomfortable or is reaching a point where they're going to attack. These dogs can be managed with a lot of work and time. These dogs, unfortunately, make up a large number of the dogs that end up PTS needlessly. (Although if the owners can't manage the behavior or choose not to put in the effort that's in their hands) There are a few, like my bitch, who simply have something not 'clicking' right upstairs. These are the most dangerous of dogs. However, it takes time to realize that this is the dog you have. It also takes time to go through all of the possible 'fixes'. It takes time to get through the denial. The guilt... you never get over the guilt. The guilt for the people who have been attacked, the guilt that there just HAS to be a way to 'fix' it, the guilt that the dog doesn't have a 'full life' because of the behaviors, the guilt because you don't know why your dog is behaving this way, the guilt of even THINKING about putting the dog down, the guilt for what your family and friends have to endure due to the dog's behaviors... it just never ends. I find that anyone saying that people are advocating putting this pup down feels like a kick in the gut. If you managed to 'fix' your dog, then you did NOT have a dog with a 'screw loose' and you have NO idea what those of us that DID have gone through. It seems like you're being told "you just didn't try hard enough, you didn't care enough, etc" which I cannot begin to say here what my response to that is. 

That said, we have a responsibility, not only to our dogs, but to the public, to our families, and to our friends. That responsibility is to try to fix the problem, and keep everyone safe from our dog. However, accidents happen. You can lose everything you have AND the dog from one mistake. That has to be taken into consideration. I am NOT going to discount the behaviorists that have actually SEEN the dog out of hand. I'm not going to say "the person shouldn't have looked the dog in the eye" because I don't know that it was what caused the dog to attack. All anyone can say is their experiences, their opinions. Yes, there ARE dogs that just cannot be saved. Anyone that says differently is speaking out of turn. No one has seen every dog out there. No one has worked with every dog out there. There are no absolutes. Each person has limitations on what they're willing to cope with... what risks they're willing to take. If there is some behavioral 'expert' willing to take this dog permanently, I'd say that would be safe. Otherwise, re-homing this dog would be irresponsible. Sometimes we're left with VERY hard decisions to make. I don't know of anyone that would take that lightly. IMHO, this owner isn't equipped to deal with this particular dog. However, I could be wrong. I don't know the owner, save the posts. I do not know this dog, save the posts. Neither does anyone else here. It's possible that this dog has some unknown issues that can be worked with and turn out OK. It's also possible that nothing can be done to make it any better. If I'd have known more earlier in my bitch's life, it's possible that I would have had her PTS after the first attack. It wasn't just a bite, either. She drug the woman to the floor then went for her throat... at less than a year old. However, I doubt anything or anyone could have made me give up on her. I hadn't even heard that some dogs could just 'not be wired right' until years later. Every single professional that saw her and knew her said the same thing.. PTS. Extended family members said it would be best. My family refused to come to my house the entire time she was alive. So please, STOP with the "it's not possible" comments... because it is. I've lived it. She is why I said "no more shepherds". She is why I chose to go with a completely different line... and why I was so careful about a breeder. She is why I sunk into a deep depression. To insinuate that people are flippantly saying "put the dog to sleep" is beyond maddening to me.


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## cliffson1

Amen!


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## Stevenzachsmom

Great post Jag and I am so sorry for all you had to endure.


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## Jo_in_TX

We have human beings who must be hospitalized for lengthy periods of time (sometime lifetimes) because something isn't right in their brains. Do some people really believe that animals can't suffer from similar-type conditions?

In the wild, these animals probably die early deaths. Certainly within a pack, this dog would be dealt with by the other dogs. 

It's a tragedy and it is a shame that more can't be done to rehabilitate this dog, but human lives have to be protected first. Besides, not everyone can turn their lives upside down to live with such a dog. I know that I couldn't. Years ago, I had an eleven pound poodle that was a real terror, and that was difficult enough. (A big red "V" for vicious on it's vet chart.  ) I'm _so, so sorry_ that you are going through this, and you will receive no harsh criticisms from me. 

Peace.


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## Jack's Dad

.[/QUOTE] Besides, not everyone can turn their lives upside down to live with such a dog. I know that I couldn't. [/QUOTE]

I think many on here forget about this. Not every one can/should or wants to turn over their often busy lives to devote to dogs of this type. 

The OP seems to me to be on top of the situation anyway. Not everyone who comes on and asks for help is an idiot. 
This person seems to have taken steps to determine the best course.
If I remember the Op has to move for awhile and others will have to care for the dog. That adds another whole dimension to this,

Best wishes to the OP.


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## San

Great post, Jag! So sorry that you had to go through what you went through with your dog. 

OP, this is a decision only you can make, and no one should judge you for it. Hugs.


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## piquant

I'm sorry about my absence. I've taken in each and every post, and I'm so grateful to all of you for your help and support. 

I wanted to let you know that 1 week ago, we put down my/our dog. It was the most difficult decision that we've ever had to make and it wasn't made lightly. I completely understand if you hate me for ending the life of a little puppy. I hate myself. I miss him more than I can express in words and I think about him all of the time. I always will. I can only remember the good things about him and the good times that we shared, which makes it all the more painful. Towards the end, I just wanted him to attack me so that I had no choice but to do it. 

On the day before he was to be euthanised, I was crying as I played with him on his mat. He licked me on the face and the hands, as he always does, when I'm upset. It was the hardest thing that I've had to endure and I'm in tears as I'm writing this. I needed him more than he needed me and since he has been gone, I feel empty. 

My dad and I were by his side until the very end, holding him. My only comfort is the thought that he felt at peace, for the first time in his short life, before he died. 

I know that a lot of you had hope in him and I'm sorry about what has happened. Even though we're miserable, my family and I feel that we made the right choice. 

Once again, thank you all for everything.


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## Castlemaid

piquant, thank you for the update. I am so very sorry about this stituation, and I am sure you made the right decision. It takes a lot of strength to do what you did, and I applaud you. I think you have had more than enough feedback from many different sources to be able to assess the situations clearly and objectively, despite the heavy emotional burden such a decision carries with it. 

So sorry again,  .


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## PatchonGSD

Dont hate yourself for doing the right thing. :hugs:


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## Kayos and Havoc

I did not read all of this, only the first few pages. 

Thanks for updating this. I was going to tell you that in cases like yours, even if you had a lot of experience with aggression, euthanasia is NEVER off the table for discussion. It is always an option due to the instability. 

You made the right decsion for you, your family and your situation. I hope you find some comfort in that. Sending you lots of hugs.


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## Jag

I'm very sorry. I know it has to be tearing you up, but don't beat yourself up over it. If you want something to focus your anger on, let it be on the BYBs who continue to breed dogs that shouldn't be bred. Get the word out to anyone who will listen. Unstable GSD's are plaguing the breed as a whole and reeking havoc on the families who end up with them. Having to deal with this in the past, I feel it was the best option for you, your family, and the dog. I'm so very sorry, again, for you having to go through this. It's not fair. You expect to add a pup to your life for a long time. Physical illness is so much easier to cope with than mental illness. However, the mental things are so much more dangerous. I hope that at some point you can get another shepherd pup, and experience the breed as they truly are meant to be. I think you and your family will be much more on top of things when choosing where to obtain a pup from, though. I know when I finally lost the long fight with my girl, I said "no more shepherds". It took over a year and a LOT of encouragement from my wife to get me back on that horse. However, I'd had good shepherds before her...so I knew what I was really missing. They are a wonderful breed, but they've been exploited by people who don't care. Those are the people that I want to bash... not those that have to try to decide what to do with a truly dangerous dog. I wish you peace.


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## Blanketback

I'm so sorry you had to do that, but I understand why you did. Hugs, and I'd give you my shoulder to cry on too, if I could.

I didn't post this before, because it's a bad story and I didn't want to influence or scare you, but I know someone who went through what you've been through, except she couldn't make the decision when you did. Her puppy bit a couple of people, she thought she could manage him, and when he was 2 he bit her neighbor in the throat.
That was when she made the decision, because she felt she had no choice anymore. What can you say to someone who tells you this story? I love the breed so much, but I'm not going to say that this dog could be a wonderful companion animal. And shutting him up indoors all the time isn't a great life either, or keeping him in a run for the rest of his days. I'm sorry for the loss of your puppy.


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## jang

I can't even begin to understand the grief and sadness you and your family are going thru...For the record, I think you did the right thing..that you HAD to make the decision you made..Best of luck to you in your move and I pray you will find peace from all of this soon..jan


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## Stosh

As a responsible pet owner you made the best decision- to protect those around you. I'm sorry you had to loose your boy and I hope you someday have another dog to share your life with. May the demons that haunted your boy in life become his angels now


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## CeCe

I'm so sorry you had to go through all this. My thoughts and prayers are with you and I hope you can someday find another puppy to bring into your life.


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## selzer

I am sorry. I know it is hard. Frodo was seven when I put him down, and he was in pain from a shattered leg that happened when he was 18 months old. But it was still hard, because otherwise he was healthy. I have never put a puppy down, but I can just imagine how much that would hurt. 

You know your situation best, and you knew your dog best. You did the right thing. I hope this does not ruin the breed for you, because it is a wonderful breed.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm very very sorry  I also hope one day you can find it in your heart to get another gsd and it will be everything you hoped for..


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## wolfy dog

piquant, I am sorry you had to do this. I have made that exact same decision years ago with a 7 month old foster (for the shelter) pup that was born in my home, in my hands even. The shelter mismatched her adoptive family and she had bitten their child pretty bad and the family returned her to me thank goodness. The shelter would have happily adopted her out again I am sure. She had become generally very aggressive to me and my dogs as well. 
I wrote the story the day she died and it still makes me cry when I read it. But I know she is at peace and safe from a possible abusive life.I hope she has forgiven me there at the bridge.
I am sending you peaceful thoughts and the hope you'll find a good GSD one day. It took me two decades to find WD.


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## Jenna&Me

Piquant I feel so sorry for you. I hope you never have to make a decision like that again.

((((hugs))))


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## jlbjab08

Wow. Your update really got me choked up. What a horrible situation. Time heals all. Good luck.


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## piquant

Wow, thank you all for your kindness. I feel so guilty about what I did, so I can't tell you how much I appreciate your kind words and your support. 

I wanted to delay the vet appointment until I had to move for my new job (in January), but the behaviourists and the vet said that the more time that my family and I spend with him, the harder that it'll be to let him go. He wasn't in my life for very long - only 3 months - but he is/was my heart dog. I don't think that I'll ever be able to love another dog as much as him. 

I can't see myself with another dog, let alone a German Shepherd. It's still my favourite breed, but it's probably not the right breed for me. 

Once again, thank you all for everything. I really appreciate the time that you've taken to read and reply to this thread, especially Jag.


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## Jag

Please, please find a way to let go of that guilt. It will eat you alive. I've been feeling guilty for over 8 years, and it served no purpose other than to make myself keep kicking myself. Move forward. Accept what was and what is. I could have saved myself years and years of heartache, worry, attacks, etc. if I was strong enough to do what you did. It was many years of a situation I wouldn't wish on anyone. Your dog is at peace. You need to find that peace, also. Good luck.


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## wolfy dog

piquant said:


> I can't see myself with another dog, let alone a German Shepherd. It's still my favourite breed, but it's probably not the right breed for me.


Don't deny yourself a good Shepherd just because of this horrible experience. If you have the means and time and it is your favorite breed, go for it. For your own peace of mind, find a breeder who has rock solid adult dogs, meet these dogs and try to get a pup from dogs you like, maybe check out some dogs he bred and are now living with families. 
Good luck to you. I wish you a good shepherd in the (near?) future.:gsdhead:


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## Stevenzachsmom

Piquant,
My first shepherd was a two year old shelter dog. Perhaps, down the road, you could consider an adult rescue. Adult dogs are already what they are. No surprises. You could find a GSD that looks nothing like your beloved puppy. A good rescue will be able to properly evaluate the dog and make sure it is the right fit for your family.

I know none of us every think we can love another dog, like the one we just lost. Ironically, if given the chance, we do fall in love again. No matter your future decisions, I am so very sorry for this difficult period in your life and I wish you a wonderful dog in your future.

Big Hugs!
Jan


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## Castlemaid

I deleted some posts and locked this thread as some people were turning it into a personal arguement about vaccinations which has nothing to do with the subject. 

The thread should remain as a tribute to a well-loved dog, and an owner who did a very difficult thing in order to do the right thing. 

Thank you.


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