# Neutering appt tomorrow, getting "cold feet"



## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Bear has his appointment to be neutered tomorrow (also his 7 month birhtday) and while I've researched this endlessly I'm suddenly super nervous about it. 

My main reason for wanting to neuter is that Bear has a very strong, dominant personality and neutering MAY help tone that down. My only real opposition is he may not be very masculine looking but the behavior is more important to me. 

I won't be breeding/showing/etc. He's just my pet and I want him to be as trainable as possible (make no mistake, I do not consider neutering a replacement for training, but as a means to an easier training platform)

I've avoided posting about this because I know it's a hot button issue but every person situation is very different. Does anyone have a pushy dog that didn't change AT ALL after neutering? Or a neutered dog that's still filled out and muscular? I'm freaking out! :help:


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

My Uncle in Alabama has always had shepherds. Most of the males he gets, females as well, are extremely pushy and domineering/stubborn (he deals well with these types of dogs). He did try neutering as a means to lower it but honestly, the dogs remained just as difficult to deal with afterward (some of them got worse, like they were mad LMAO). 
Not to say it won't help you, I don't actually know the full effects of neutering (I never neutered Dronimoe or Cheeko, and Kiba came neutered). But in my Uncle's experience it did not work.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think it is a training, not a neutering issue. 

You do what you think is right, but everything I have read said wait until 1 1/2 years of age, minimum. Including two vets and the breeder.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I don't think it will change his "dominant" personality much, if at all.

Have you raised other GSDs? I ask, because you may just be a bit taken back by the breed.

I do think it will influence his development. He probably won't look as typically "male," as he might have and he may grow taller, in proportion than he might have.

If you can control accidental breeding, I'd wait until he's closer to 24 months.

Get a good one on one trainer to work with you, give him plenty og physical and mental stimulation, and you'll be pleased with the outcome.

Good luck.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Frank was neutered at 8mos the reason I went ahead a did it then was because there was starting to be some tension between him and my other 2 males (both neutered) and I didnt' want it to escalate since I felt it was driven by hormones.
He's 2 now and best friends with them. It's not a replacement for trainng, but I do think it can make some training easier depending on the dog. 
You'll probably have lots of opinions on this since like you said it's a hot button issue, 
Thinking back I would still neuter again at 8 mos nothing I've read has changed my mind on that. 
At 2 Frank hasn't totally filled out, he probably will not fill out to the extent he would have if I'd left him intact, but I dont' have people assuming he's a female when I'm out usual comments assume he's a male probably because of his size. and the other comments usually go along the line of "Bet you dont' have any problems when you're out walking him "


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

i had the same feelings when i got zero done, i had a bit of remorse after wards but im very happy with my decision, he has turned out very husky and thick which i love looking and his personality hasnt changed to much, hes just not driving for girls when he smells them. He wont get testicular cancer and he hasnt had anymore infections in his wee wee since!


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

zyppe, he is my first dog period so I've been very suprised at the "give an inch, take a mile" mentality Bear has. He's not "out of control" and we're working with training he just pushes every boundary, every day and I've read in many places that neutering can help ease this a bit. He's also very cocky when interacting with other dogs.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Neutering will not alter his personality, nor will it prevent dominance. Neutering will stop your dog from breeding, and perhaps he won't mark territory AS MUCH (but still will, since marking is a survival instinct too).

I would wait until 2 years old before neutering, and hammer down the obedience, training and NILIF if you are having behavioural issues. Cutting out his testicles will not fix your problem.

Good luck in whatever path you take!


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

In my experience if the dog is naturally domineering then the spnuetering won't help that much,and consistent training is going to help manage it. As far as masculinity goes, I have never spayed or neutered an animal early,and have seen good development as far as features go.This has just been my personal experience and I am sure others will be able to chime in more to help you.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

All the male dogs in my family but one were neutered at 6 months and we've never had issues with overbearing behaviour, but I believe that was mostly training. Yes, they might be a bit more feminine looking then a intact male but we really don't care

The one exception was a one year old doberman that my sister and brother in law rescued at one year old, they got him neutered shortly after getting him. He's very dominant, likes to hump and spray even now, neutering did 0 to change him. He was never trained past basic however, so that is a factor, they're training him now 

Personally I'm going to try and wait until close to one year to neuter Delgado but I'm willing to send him in sooner. I won't ever own a intact dog, either male or female, I simply have no need to

It's your decision


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nuts or not, your boy is 7 months old and if you are having difficulty controlling his behavior now, then you are in for an interesting couple of months as a teenager. Many dogs go through a phase that lasts a little while, they forget their training, they push the boundaries a bit, they might growl at people they were fine with, they might bark at dogs, they might act stubborn or stupid. 

A lot of people neuter at this point. And if they continue to train their dog and provide good leadership, the dog improves, and they say AHA! the neuter did it. And a lot of people do not neuter, but continue with training and leadership and the dog improves.

I have had three males and all of them were intact. Frodo was a beast, terribly head strong, aggressive, etc. He was also my first GSD, and I made every mistake there was with him. I had really no problems with Dubya and Rushie. Dubya became a little dog-reactive at about a year old, and I took some bad training advice, but it was just a phase, and he really outgrew it without much work on my part at all. Rushie never went through any stupid phase. I parked him in classes at ten weeks old, and once a week we went to class. I went through puppy and basic and advanced and basic and CGC, and advanced, and then every time I started classes with a bitch and she came into season, Rush would finish their classes for them. I did the CGC with him about 5 times -- never failed, got a TDI the last time, he was just an easy dog, but I did a lot of training with him. Well, a lot for me, which is once a week in the class. I really do not do a lot outside of classes.

But Cujo is the pup I gave to my parents. They are getting on, so I decided it would be better to neuter him before taking him over there. I neutered him at I think 18 weeks old, but it could have been 16 weeks. I thought that would make him easier to manage. 

He and my dad got off on the wrong foot because my dad really wasn't a part of this acquisition until the dog was installed. He did a lot of yelling and ranting and raving, and Cujo flatly did not trust him, he would bark at him. Finally when Mom went into the hospital for a period of time, Cujo and dad got a better working relationship.

Cujo, 4 months old, immediately decided that HE was the king over the ancient English Setter. Therefore, the ES was not allowed ANY toys, Cujo got pets, Cujo would put the old dog in his place. 

Looking backwards, I probably would have NEVER placed Cujo with my parents. They do not obedience train, or exercise the dog. But my mom did _train_ him. He is trained that when he licks his platter clean, he gets a treat for which he must sit, and then lay down and then take it gently. He is trained to wait while she hooks his chain to his collar, and when he comes in to sit on the rags and wait there. He knows what "Go lay down means." But they really did nothing in the way of training, and socialization is Thanksgiving and Christmas when the extended family in all shapes and sizes and ages descends on the house hold, and the dog is pretty much left out to manage it. 

When he was two, my sister adopted the girls and started bringing them over. He barked at them and scared them. We put up a pet yard, for the kids. He knocked Elena down and put his paw on her holding her down. He was a little scarey and I would hang onto him by the collar hoping he wouldn't do anything. But I did not live there, and my sister would spend the night, and when I was not there, I would get reports about his behavior with the girls. He got better and better with them. 

After Pip died, Cujo became the favorite of both girls. They would lay down on a blanket with him and cover him up, and follow him through the house with their hand on his butt. He would pause and look back and wait for them. Now my younger sister has a 2.5 and a 1 year old (adjusted age). And she has not been here hardly at all because of how sick Gwen was, Andrea was babysat a number of times while Gwennie was in the hospital. But then for a year, my sister did not take the girls anywhere. Just recently, end of June, she started taking them both out. And Cujo has been awesome, very careful around both of them. 

That is my experience with males. I really must say it is how you raise them gonads or no gonads. But I have had a LOT of people tell me that the neuter calmed their dog down. 

Cujo is leggy and has a face like a girl and no chest/mane but I did neuter very young. I would really hold out for another couple of months, 10 -12 months. But if you are having issues now, well I don't think it will hurt to go ahead with the neuter. 

Good luck in whatever you decide.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> Neutering will not alter his personality, nor will it prevent dominance.


I had a very dominant dog before he was neutered, and he was just as dominant after he was neutered (at 13 months).
It made no difference. 
I think the whole "he'll be less dominant after neutering" is a myth.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

GSDGunner said:


> I had a very dominant dog before he was neutered, and he was just as dominant after he was neutered (at 13 months).
> It made no difference.
> I think the whole "he'll be less dominant after neutering" is a myth.


This is exactly what I have seen with every dog I have known.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

It's not as though you can't delay some, while you think more.

I did that. I had a neuter appt set a few weeks back, but cancelled. Mine is a mix boy, so even more important reason to never let him reproduce, but he will not. He is fully contained. 

He is spirited and sometimes bossy to his littermate brother, who is neutered -- but let me say -- his neutered brother is *quite* the instigator! Intact boy actually does take quite a bit of guff from his neutered brother, but eventually sometimes, does let him know to back it off.

Intact boy is now almost 15 months. Neutered boy was done when he came into my life at 10 months. Both boys, physically, are filled out nicely. Physical appearance was never a big deal to me; I came to believe it was best _healthwise_ to wait. 

If you didn't look at their nether-regions, , you wouldn't be able to tell by behavior alone, except for some isolated incidents, which is intact vs not.

Again, FWIW, mine are WGSD mixes. 

I am ready to go ahead and have the intact boy neutered soon. I had originally wanted to get to 18 months and I may reach it. It's actually a financial issue at this point.

Good luck, I know it is a hard decision.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i too feel the same as you...i have my pups appointment made at the end of the month but i too keep debating with myself...my vet reccomends it and me being a rescue foster/volunteer where all our dogs have to be fixed before they can be adopted or pups must be done by age 6 months...but yet there are so many opinions on here and on the internet to wait..so i argue with myself about it too...then of course i hear its easier for them to recover from surgury if they are younger..and ive never owned a dog that wasnt fixed..my last GSD was 14 when he passed and was fixed when i got him at age 1 but he was full of muscle and looked great...so i dont know ...good luck on whatever you decide


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

"he is my first dog period so I've been very suprised at the "give an inch, take a mile" mentality Bear has. He's not "out of control" and we're working with training he just pushes every boundary, every day"
I'd say you're the proud owner of a typical GSD...

You picked a very intelligent breed and that makes them wonderful and also apt to try to 'do it their way.' If he's not "out of control," you're probably doing a good job with him.

My father used to say "when in doubt, don't."


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> then of course i hear its easier for them to recover from surgury if they are younger..


This is very true. 
The older and more developed, the more painful and prolonged the recovery.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never had my dogs neutered and i've never had
a problem with them medically or socially.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> i've never had my dogs neutered and i've never had
> a problem with them medically or socially.


 :thumbup:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

This board is generally anti-neuter, so take that under advisement when reading the replies.

I think neutering him is a very good idea. It will not alter his dominant personality--he will need good, consistent training to help manage that. However, I have noticed that intact dogs, especially dominant intact dogs, have more of an edge to them, which can make them more difficult to handle. 

It's hard to explain, but I'll use an example. I'm a groomer, and I recently got a new client with a Shih-tzu. He was about 12 months old and intact. Cute little fellow but pretty bull-headed. He'd been groomed before (not by me), but was a little bugger on my table--constantly fighting me, spinning around, mouthing me. He was definitely more of a "dominant" type personality. He wasn't mean, just a little hyperactive and had no compunction about putting his mouth on me when I was doing something he didn't like. He didn't want to be held, and didn't want to hold still, and had a very assertive opinion about the whole thing.

When the owner returned, she was amazed that I was able to groom him and lamented about how he wouldn't let her brush him or handle his feet at home. I suggested that, in addition to ongoing training and desensitizing, neutering him would be a good idea. She agreed, had been meaning to do it, just hadn't "gotten around" to it.

When the dog came back about 6 weeks later, he'd been neutered about a month prior, and was marginally easier to work with.

When he came back a third time, his attitude change was dramatic. He was calmer, had a pretty easygoing attitude toward the grooming process, didn't try to mouth me, and didn't give me any defiant behavior. Now, it's entirely possible that he was getting used to the idea of letting me groom him, due to the fact that I didn't give up or let him get away with any nonsense in the past. But I honestly think that neutering helped facilitate that. 

That's just the most recent anecdote. I have several more examples of personal experience with pre- and post neuter behavior, if you're interested. In most cases neutering did help improve the dog's attitude and behavior, and in other cases it didn't make any difference, but I can't think of a single example where neutering made a dog's behavior worse.

Hormones can be crazy-making, for people as well as dogs. If anyone has ever experienced an imbalance of hormones (think PMS or being a 15 year old boy), you can attest that hormones DO have an effect on mood, emotion, and behavior. Testosterone is generally a "feel-good" hormone, but high levels can cause overconfidence, aggression, and just plain stupidity.  Testosterone-juiced bravado can get someone into a lot of trouble (think picking a fight with the biggest guy in the bar).

So, neutering isn't a magic bullet, but it definitely can have a positive impact on a dog and your relationship with him. As I said, it won't change his personality, but it can help make training easier. You may find that he won't be quite as adversarial, and will "give in" to you a little bit easier. At least, that has been my experience.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

My intact 14 month old has only become easier to manage with age. When he was 4 months old he was a monster that I could not take anywhere. He was a fire breather. He would swim across the floor at the vets office trying to get to other dogs. He would push to get his way in everything he did. I never stopped training him. We are getting ready for his BH now and hope to do his IPO1 early next year (if he hasn't turned completely into a poodle by then). He has become so docile that I am now wondering if he will ever go through his rebellious stage. You certainly would not recognize him as the same dog he was just a few short months ago.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

robk said:


> My intact 14 month old has only become easier to manage with age. When he was 4 months old he was a monster that I could not take anywhere. He was a fire breather. He would swim across the floor at the vets office trying to get to other dogs. He would push to get his way in everything he did. I never stopped training him. We are getting ready for his BH now and hope to do his IPO1 early next year (if he hasn't turned completely into a poodle by then). He has become so docile that I am now wondering if he will ever go through his rebellious stage. You certainly would not recognize him as the same dog he was just a few short months ago.


You hear that, land shark owners? There is hope!


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I have to say reading a lot of your past posts, your Bear sounds a lot like my Bear. My Bear is just about 2 months older than your dog.
I know that the consensus on this board is to not neuter or to neuter later, but I decided to neuter at 6 months.
It took up until a couple of weeks ago before I noticed a change in Bear. He definitely has mellowed out a bit. Was this because of neutering him?, probably not. I think that definitely keeping up with his training has helped more so than anything. 
If you feel that this will help you than go ahead and do it. 
Just know that it will get easier, even if you think it never will.
BTW I don't think my dog is feminine looking at all, and he's still maturing!


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Really if I were still unsure,I would just cancel it for now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Bear GSD said:


> I have to say reading a lot of your past posts, your Bear sounds a lot like my Bear. My Bear is just about 2 months older than your dog.
> I know that the consensus on this board is to not neuter or to neuter later, but I decided to neuter at 6 months.
> It took up until a couple of weeks ago before I noticed a change in Bear. He definitely has mellowed out a bit. Was this because of neutering him?, probably not. I think that definitely keeping up with his training has helped more so than anything.
> If you feel that this will help you than go ahead and do it.
> ...


If your Bear is in your avatar, he is stunning. 

My Bear is a female, and a little over two.

There are some secondary sex characteristics that do not develop if the testosterone is removed before the dog has matured. The dogs are still beautiful, and most people couldn't tell the difference. But it really can be a difference. Also, dogs mature at different rates. My Dubya was full grown and very male looking by 10 months old. Rushie took almost two years, and was never as pronounced in those characteristics as Dubya. But he was intact so, who can tell?


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

selzer said:


> If your Bear is in your avatar, he is stunning.
> 
> My Bear is a female, and a little over two.
> 
> There are some secondary sex characteristics that do not develop if the testosterone is removed before the dog has matured. The dogs are still beautiful, and most people couldn't tell the difference. But it really can be a difference. Also, dogs mature at different rates. My Dubya was full grown and very male looking by 10 months old. Rushie took almost two years, and was never as pronounced in those characteristics as Dubya. But he was intact so, who can tell?


Thanks Selzer, I think he's very handsome!
What secondary sex characteristics don't develop? Maybe if you can explain what they are and the differences in waiting, then maybe she can determine if it would be worth waiting.
It really didn't make a difference to me as, I wasn't planning on showing or breeding my dog, I just knew that I would neuter and wanted it to be earlier rather than later for recovery sake.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Secondary sex characteristics are what make a male look "masculine". Thicker bone and muscle tone, wider skull, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What Freestep said. My German male had a great thick mane, and broad chest, heavy masculine head. 

Hmmm, maybe a few photos:
This is Dubya at a little over a year:


















Cujo at about six months:



















Cujo at about a year:









His brother Leroy (intact) at 11 months:


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Thank you everyone so so much for the input...I have a feeling it's going to be a long night of contemplation! Keep the opinions coming! It really does help!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OK, so what have you decided?


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Freestep had a very good post and it mirrors my own observations of pre/post-neuter behavior in dogs. My dog and another have frequent play dates. But even in just his interactions with people, I noticed a very positive difference in his behavior after he was neutered, to the point where I will probably do the same thing with any future males I own, if they are of a similar personality anyway.

My own has a starkly different personality and almost no drive, and I don't think I'd see the same benefits. Plus he has had fairly minor behavioral issues in the grand scheme of things, whereas his buddy was a menace.

If you're struggling to get you and your dog's relationship where you want it I would definitely recommend keeping your appointment and having him neutered. Like Freestep said it is not a magic bullet but it can make a much easier platform to work from.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Sir Bear said:


> My main reason for wanting to neuter is that Bear has a very strong, dominant personality and neutering MAY help tone that down.
> 
> Does anyone have a pushy dog that didn't change AT ALL after neutering? Or a neutered dog that's still filled out and muscular? I'm freaking out! :help:


..neutering DID NOT Change my dog's personality at all or " calm" him down. He was a pistol from day one and stayed that way until he passed. Just my experience.


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## koda00 (Apr 27, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> I think it is a training, not a neutering issue.
> 
> You do what you think is right, but everything I have read said wait until 1 1/2 years of age, minimum. Including two vets and the breeder.


:thumbup:


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

We just had our 6-month old Jake neutered last week. I read what I could find on early neutering, but couldn't find definitive information to persuade me from proceeding at 6 months old.

I realize that neutering can calm down some dogs, but that's not the reason we did it. Jake is a very well socialized and even-tempered dog. He walks well and loves to play with other dogs in the park. While he is a puppy and doesn't listen 100% of the time, he's not a very reactive or super high energy pup. We neutered simply for the reason that we didn't want to deal with a dog in puberty. He loves is runs at the dog park and knowing he's neutered gives us the peace of mind that we don't have to worry about him accidently impregnating a female.

We had a great vet, did all the pre-op blood work, had him on IV fluids, etc. The next day he acted like nothing ever happened. A week later, his incision is healing nicely. I will say we have seen Jake calm down in some respects over the last week. The playful attitude and nipping has decreased. I have no idea if its a result of the neuter or the training we continue to do. I'll probably never know.

While I respect that there are a lot of anti-neuter or anti early neuter people on this board, everyone needs to do the necessary research andmake a decision that works for them. 

Good luck with whatever decision you decide to make.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

lzver said:


> The playful attitude and nipping has decreased. I have no idea if its a result of the neuter or the training we continue to do. I'll probably never know.


Um, could be that he is recovering from last week's surgery.


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## lzver (Feb 9, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Um, could be that he is recovering from last week's surgery.


While we are trying to keep him quieter and we're not taking him for long walks or runs until the weekend, he is back to his pre-neuter energy level. Since the weekend it has been hard to keep him quieter because it is like nothing ever happened.

Like others have pointed out, young pups bounce back quicker from surgery. I would definitely say I've seen evidence of that in Jake.


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## sddeadeye (Apr 5, 2011)

I have a neuter contract with my breeder that states he must be neutered by 6 months. Of course it is a different breed, but similar size. We are currently holding it off until after 6 months due to his mange, but he will be taken in once that has cleared up.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> Um, could be that he is recovering from last week's surgery.


Highly doubtful, unless there were complications most dogs are back to normal within 48 hours, especially males since it's not very invasive. Even my poodle was trying to jump off my bed the day after her spay and that was without pain medication, thankfully I caught her


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## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I don't what it is like in other areas of the country, but around here I know that a lot of doggie day care places will not let you board with them if your dog is not neutered by 6 months. I have seen a few other restrictions as well. I can't remember but I think the ASCPA in our area that has some great classes also will not let you participate unless your animal is spayed/neutered.
I am not saying it's right, but it was another consideration for me when I decided to neuter my dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sddeadeye said:


> I have a neuter contract with my breeder that states he must be neutered by 6 months. Of course it is a different breed, but similar size. We are currently holding it off until after 6 months due to his mange, but he will be taken in once that has cleared up.



Have you discussed this with the breeder at all? If it is demodex mange, it suggests that the immune system is not mature enough to handle the little mites on its own. I would worry that if the immune system is having trouble, I would want to wait a while after the mange clears up. Surgeries can have infection associated with them. I would want a good healthy immune system for any surgery. Just thinking out loud.


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## sddeadeye (Apr 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> Have you discussed this with the breeder at all? If it is demodex mange, it suggests that the immune system is not mature enough to handle the little mites on its own. I would worry that if the immune system is having trouble, I would want to wait a while after the mange clears up. Surgeries can have infection associated with them. I would want a good healthy immune system for any surgery. Just thinking out loud.


Yes, I have spoken with the breeder. Hence why we are waiting past the 6 month mark that the contract stated. We are waiting until the demodex is good and cleared up before we make the neuter appointment.  My last dog was a GSD and he had severe autoimmune problems. I do not want to have to be fighting those types of problems again with our collie which is why as soon as the demodex verdict came in from the vet, I was in communication with the pup's breeder.


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

Thank you all so much! I took him to the vets office this morning and said I'd like to speak with the vet before they took him back. She took me into an exam room and answered any questions I had. She basically said if I wasn't sure to wait...it's not like it's something you can "take back". So I've decided to hold off while I take more time to decide. 

I really appreciated how understanding she was, and she said she appreciated the thought I put into it and that clearly I care about my dog a lot (which is always nice to hear) I think as long as his behavior is not a dire problem I'm going to try and let him grow into that big head of his as much as possible. She did say to try and do it around a year though because then it starts to get a lot more expensive from there. 

I figure if I start to see any hints of really serious sex-related aggression or anything like that I can always rethink it then. I don't think there was a wrong answer here, but I was so nervous and unsure this morning...I feel like I did the right thing.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Yay! So glad you are happy with your decision!


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