# Dangerous Aggression -- Fearing the Worst (LONG)



## MarkJoel60

I haven't posted on this forum for quite awhile because some of the regulars on here seem more interested in proving how smart they are than actually helping... But I figure desperate times call for desperate measures, so here goes:

Ninja, my black GSD who is about 3 1/2 years old has developed dangerous aggressive behavior. I have suffered 4 attacks, and I have had two different "trainers" tell me to put him down. (The third didn't think that was necessary, but believes it will be hard work and it will be touch and go.)

The reason the second trainer thought Ninja should be put down wasn't because he exhibited aggressive behavior -- but because he didn't. She spent several hours here, watching us interact with Ninja. She watched Ninja lick my wife in the face. Watched how he instantly obeyed his sit and down commands. Saw how he even did a sit and stay while we hid treats for him to find. After observing this she said if she hadn't seen the photos of my bites, she would think I was making it up. And because there was no behavior issue she could pick up on, that must mean he is unstable and can't be trusted.

But I don't think this is a case of "Sudden Onset Aggression." It isn't that he attacks for no reason at all. Each time there was a trigger -- but the trigger didn't seem to fit the aggression. And each trigger was a surprise.

Now for the long background...

Ninja is a high drive, black GSD, and we've had him since a pup. He's the third Shepherd I've owned (always one at a time). I thought my 2 previous GSDs were high drive, but Ninja makes them look like couch potatoes. That's why a lot of what I now see were huge aggressive warning flags I just attributed to his high drive nature. 

He was always a pushy, even as a pup. Sometimes even nipping my wife to get her to play with him. He NEVER took to the leash. Nothing we could do would settle him down. I even left him with a K9 trainer for two weeks. He did great there. He is incredibly smart. When we came to pick him up, and opened our Jeep door, though, he went bonkers (excited, yapping, when he got in the jeep he was biting everything in sight -- but the entire back-end of the Jeep had been ruined by him long before this... Which was why we took him to the trainer in the first place.) He would get in an adrenaline overdrive mode, and would just be bonkers. When the adrenaline rush wore off, he was fine. 

After a year and a half, he did settle down a little. He began to really like affection - giving and receiving. When he was younger, he seemed to view petting suspiciously. But he started coming to my wife or me and leaning into us wanting to be pet... putting his paw on our hand while we did it... licking us as we pet him. He especially loves his lower back and rear legs massaged. He is a very active runner. He is usually tight there. 

For a year, I thought we had turned a corner. It was when he was 2 ½ years old that I suffered his first attack. It was really strange because he follows me around everywhere. He probably trusts my wife more (she can do things like give him a bath, or wipe mud off of him) but he is my constant shadow. As I write this now, he is on the floor three feet away from me. 

On this evening, he was asleep on the floor and I saw what I thought might be a tick on his hip. I asked my wife what it was, she looked over and said she wasn’t sure. While we talked, Ninja looked up at me, through half closed eyes. I assumed he was sleepy... I went over and gently plucked at the item (which was a leaf) and he came up at me, snarling and snapping. I had never seen this before. I told him to sit, which he did – growling the whole time. His eyes were slits and then he started coming up out of the sit, the growl building. I gave the command to sit again, and gestured, and he attacked my hand. 

He had three bites on me before I knew what happened. It was a nasty affair after that as I tried to fend him off. I was able to get behind him and grab him by the scruff and hold him (he was standing. I didn't do an Alpha Roll or anything... just held him...) I kept trying to calm him down, but my voice was shaky. Eventually, he relaxed, and all of the rage left. Cautiously I let go of him and he was totally normal. When I was in the bathroom washing my wounds (several deep gashes on both hands –it’s a wonder I didn’t need 
stitches) he came in all concerned. He was like two different dogs.

I have never been attacked by my own dog in my life. I didn’t know what to do. Because he was back to normal, we decided to just make sure everyone knew to give him a wide berth if he was sleeping. 

The next attack came about three months later. Ninja was lying in the hallway at night – black dog, dark hallway, bad combination... My son (23 years old) went to the bathroom and must have closed some body part in the door. Ninja (who has always been vocal when he is in pain) shot up like he was being killed and pretty soon the yelping turned into that low growl. I didn’t want him attacking my son, so I opened our door and called for him. Ninja came in, and then launched at me! Same thing as before. After he got several shots in, I was able to hold him from behind. This time the rage came and went in waves. I assume that the throbbing from the injury was causing that. But eventually, it all passed, and he was normal dog – wondering why I seemed to be bleeding again. 

We should have taken action then, of course. But, we figured that it was pain induced and we can avoid that situation. 

The third attack wasn’t on me, it was on my daughter (21 years old). She was trying to leave through the front door, and he was trying to get out past her, and she nudged him back with her knee (something that she had done before with no incident) and he came on her, snarling and trying to bite. 

Fortunately, she had a backpack on and was able to keep him away. I came up and pulled him off of her, and held him until she left, but as soon as I let go of him, he turned on me. More gashes and wounds until I was able to get him outside, where he settled down. 

Clearly we were out of our depth. I had no idea what to do about this. I was calling friends and asking for trainers. One guy, a K9 Officer for a local police department, was recommended. He did a one hour "evaluation" which basically consisted of him walking Ninja around on lead (after he had me put a muzzle on Ninja) and trying to provoke him to attack -- and Ninja obliged. This convinced the guy that Ninja was unstable because his dog would never react like that. Of course, his dog was a $6000 Dutch Shepherd sold to his department from a breeder that trained him first. But whatever. The point is that we asked "an expert" and he told us to put him down. So that wasn't good. 

We visited another trainer who is somewhat famous for saving last chance dogs. We attended (without Ninja... just to observe) his "Green Mile" class for dogs who had been scheduled for euthanasia, before they were rescued. This trainer thought Ninja could be saved by diligent training, but that it would take a full time effort from everyone in the family. He also wanted to have us bring Ninja to his class... but that didn't seem feasible since one of Ninja's adrenaline triggers is a car ride, and the class was over an hour's drive from our house. I wanted to hire him to come and consult privately, but his schedule didn't permit that. So, although I thought this guy probably knew more than anyone else I had talked to, we couldn't get anything to work out. 

We tried to work with Ninja on our own as best we could. I modified my work so I didn’t travel much and my wife and I poured a lot of time into him. The relationship was much better. And then, last week, I got bit again. 

This time we had been playing outside, and he had gotten into some burrs. They were the really small kind that look like prickly birdseed. I had removed a few but there were a lot left. When we got back inside the house, I removed a couple more, one on his neck. He looked at me funny, so I showed it to him. He seemed OK. But one was right at the edge of his fur, so I went back to get it too... and that apparently was one burr too many, because I got the snarl and snap, and I stopped and told him it was OK, but he wound up and came again. 

This time he had his collar on, so I was able to gain control of the situation fairly quickly. Which means my hand was bit some, but not horribly like before. I moved him to the outside, while holding his collar. Every so often, he would try to turn on me, but I would hold him until he settled. Eventually I got him outside, where the Evil dog spell wore off completely, and he was back to normal. 

The issue is, when is enough enough? Two out of three "trainers" told me to put him down. Even the one who thought he could be saved told me I could never ever really trust him again. That's a little scary.

After the last bite, we made the painful decision to have him put down. It was ripping us up, both my wife and me, but we didn't see any way out of this. I knew a vet who would come to our house to do the procedure. Usually he does it for sick dogs of course. But we explained the situation and showed the pictures of the wounds and he agreed. 

The plan was for us to tranquilize him so he was asleep and then the vet would come in and give him the final shot. I decided to be there with him through it all, which was just breaking my heart -- especially feeding him the meat laced with Acepromazine. We gave him enough to knock out a horse.

When this gorgeous, graceful dog suddenly staggered and and had to be helped to lay down I felt awful. But I knew what was coming was worse. I've been there when GSDs have been put down before. But never like this. Not in their prime, when we had spent the morning having a great time together. He was out in 20 minutes... lips slack... tongue falling out of the mouth. I had seen it before. I texted the Vet. We were good to go.

The Vet pulled into the driveway while I pet Ninja and tried to prepare myself for what was coming next. I had a hole in my heart you could drive a truck through. 

Then, heard the faint sound of the Vert's truck door closing outside -- and Ninja woke up. Then he stood up, and staggered to the back door. He tried to bark, but couldn't. He could barely stand. He lay down again, and I went to comfort him and get him to relax. The Vet began to talk to my wife. I could barely hear them, but I don't have a German Shepherd's ears. Ninja's head came back up, and he stood up again. He staggered to the second door. Started pounding it with his nose, shaking it back and forth. I didn't know whether to cry or cheer. It was an incredible display of sheer will.

I texted to the outside and told them what was happening. The Vet asked me to come outside so we could talk. I got Ninja to lay back down and went to the door. When I opened it, somehow, he was through it before I was. Luckily, we have a second door. I had to lead him back inside and get him to sit and stay so I could leave. He did it but didn't like it. The whole time I was outside, he was shaking the doors, wanting out.

Someone was in his driveway. He wanted out.

The thing I know is that Ninja had no idea what was happening, He didn't know I was the one who betrayed him with the laced liver. He didn't know why this vet was there -- he had never seen him before. The only reason he rose up from his death bed and started patrolling was that someone was in his area, and it was his job to protect the home.

It is really, really hard to destroy that.

So, we put off the execution, and I am back trying to come up with something -- anything -- that gives me the hope that I can have the Ninja that protects, without the Ninja that attacks.

If you've made it to here, thanks. 

I'll be happy to answer any questions. I am happy to listen to all theories. I am not interested in getting in a discussion with anyone that is designed to show how smart they are, or how they are so much a better owner than I am. I know I have failed Ninja in several ways. I also know that Ninja is unlike any other dog I have ever met. Some of this was bad teaching. Some of this, I believe, is genetics. I am hoping that whatever it is, it can be fixed.

If anyone knows how, God Bless you... I'd love to hear it...


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## yuriy

Check your PMs in a few minutes.


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## CrystalV

I read your whole story. I'm so sorry that this is happening. I'm awaiting my GSD puppy but had a mixed one previously. No aggression from him at all. I did have a Lhasa Apso, the only dog that has ever bit me. He had bit my husband when he was only 3 mo old over a hamburger wrapper. He bit me when he was 3 yrs old over clothing. I had a small child so my mom took him. He bit my dad, my brother and eventually my daughter. My mom loved him and refused to do anything about his behavior. He would be fine and then something just snapped in his brain and he would go crazy. About 2 years after my mom took him she found him at the foot of the bed dead. I really think he may have had a brain tumor... I'm an ICU Neuro/Trauma RN and now looking back think he had an illness. My lil poodle went totally crazy trying to bite me when he was 3...tazmaian devil, I swear. Took him to the vet, he had bad teeth...pulled them and the aggression went away. Poor baby was in pain and I had no idea. Just like my patients, when we turn them in the bed, they are in pain and they hit at us. 

Hope you figure it out....


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## Stonevintage

So sorry you are going through this OP. Have you discussed medication with any of the vets? Some don't want their dogs medicated every day, but if it's between that and death.....

Also consider the lowly muzzle. Military dogs wear them all the time and for lengthy amounts of time - There are several that a dog can eat and drink through - design has improved for comfort to the dog as well.

Those are the only two things I can think of.


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## Slamdunc

I'm sorry to hear that you are having all of these problems. I've been in your situation owning a handler aggressive dog and it sucks. However, you need to handle the situation differently. 

There are ways to deal with a dog like this and to be successful. First, it is hard to really say 100% if your dog has a mental or physical issue based on reading post. I'm leaning towards the idea that Ninja is a spoiled brat, that can be aggressive and has never had a real meaningful correction for this behavior. 

You say that he becomes aggressive in the car. What triggers this aggression or "road rage," seeing a person on the street or in the car next to you? The simple act of riding in the car? Or seeing a dog or animal and getting aggressive? Knowing the answer to that would help. Can't you put him in a crate inside the car, that pretty much would solve the destructive behavior in the car. I had a dog that ate the entire back area of my new Volvo station wagon years ago. He tore the leather, plastic, carpet down to bare metal. You could see the line for the gas tank going into the tank. He had a bad case of "road rage." Anyone making eye contact with him would set him off. 

You said this regarding the most recent bite:

*This time we had been playing outside, and he had gotten into some burrs. They were the really small kind that look like prickly birdseed. I had removed a few but there were a lot left. When we got back inside the house, I removed a couple more, one on his neck. He looked at me funny, so I showed it to him. He seemed OK. But one was right at the edge of his fur, so I went back to get it too... and that apparently was one burr too many, because I got the snarl and snap, and I stopped and told him it was OK, but he wound up and came again.*

I'm sorry, but I am not the most politically correct person on dog forums. I am also rather blunt and do not sugar coat things very well when it comes to aggression.

When he looked at you funny, he should have been sternly corrected verbally, and you should have readied yourself for a fight. Telling him "OK" was the worst thing that you could have done. Over the years, you have been unintentionally training him that you will tolerate his tantrums and now aggression. You spoil him, and we all love our dogs, but dogs like this must earn every stroke of affection we give them.

Snarling and growling is not the time you say "OK." Ok, means good dog, yo are correct, good job, way to go, in Ninja's mind. It also means, I'm a little afraid of you and I hope that you don't bite me. As you have seen (many times), that funny look leads to snarling and growling, snarling leads to biting. In essence, the funny look absolutely leads to biting. That is the time that I would have my come to Jesus meeting with your dog. I do not alpha roll dogs and I do not hit dogs. My hands are for praising and petting. But, I would in a matter of seconds instill the firm believe in your dog that biting me would be a very bad idea. A belief that the dog would carry with him for a very long time.

I suppose the most politically correct way to describe the technique, would be to use the carefully edited and scripted approach of Cesar Milan. I am not a huge fan of his, but I respect what he does with his "dog pack." The technique he uses with the slip collar and leash is pretty close to what I would do with your dog. I can mention this, because Cesar does it and that makes it PC to say. However, if you know dogs and know the technique, he carefully edits the parts of the technique that make it effective. If they showed the whole technique, most dog owners would lose their minds. When Cesar shows a calm, submissive dog lying on the floor and him petting the dog, what you don's see if what you need to be prepared to do. Hold the dog up calmly, until the dog is almost gassed out. Then you lower the dog to the ground, and allow it to recover. Saying "Ninja, what happened to you? You don't want to do that again, do you?" It is very effective, but best done with a trainer or some one to guide you that has handled aggressive dogs. 

From what you describe, your dog is reactive and aggressive to pain; ie the incident in the dark hall with the bathroom door. Because of that I would not use a prong or E collar to correct this dog as that may make the situation much worse. I would use a Nylon slip collar, even the one that Leerburg sells as a dominant dog collar. 

To fix this problem, your whole family will need to be involved. You will need to be much tougher and much stronger. You will at some point need to muzzle the dog and provoke his aggression and be prepared to win the fight. 

I hope this helps.


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## Slamdunc

To start gaining a leadership role, I would start feeding your dog by hand. He only eats when you feed by hand and he earns every handfull. 

I would not allow this dog on the bed, or to seek and receive any unsolicited affection. He must earn the affection. No petting because he is cute, good looking or seeking it. 

He sits and waits before he goes out any door or through any opening, you go first. 

He needs some serious obedience. The obedience can be motivational but he must obey and earn his rewards. The rewards can be a ball tossed, praise or food. Just so others understand, by motivational I mean working for praise and a reward. I would use the old yank and crank methods to make him oblige. He is probably a smart dog, make it fun. But you control the game and the toys are yours. When you are done playing the toys go with you. They are not his. The "two ball" game is great to start.

Everything must be black and white, there can be no gray areas with this dog. I'm willing to guess if you step up and show him that you are in charge he will come around.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Jim, it's going to be a fight with this dog though, since the dog has gotten away with this behavior, right? It could be a huge fight, nasty fight(s) too. He's already learned he can rage and attack and redirect and get away with it too.

The question is, is the OP ready and able to handle the fight like an experienced handler of hard dogs like you on his own? Is his family able and ready?

I'll be blunt too, I don't think it's worth the safety and well being of the family involved.


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## MadLab

That is a tough case.

Main problem I see is the dog could seriously damage you or someone else. 

Is it really worth it for a dog.

Sounds like it has something wrong with it or it is a total mismatch between your family and this dog.

I'd say let it go or totally review how you and others interact with it.

What you don't describe is the dogs nerves or how you train it or how you discipline it. Is it spoilt and spoken to like a baby and allowed to do as it pleases. 

Does it socialize with other dogs? 

I hate to hear of dogs that shadow people. It tells me the person never bothered to set the dog up to be comfortable and confident on it's own. The dog doesn't respect your space or right to be alone either. 

This is probably a case of no one on the net can advise you as no body knows your living situation and how the dog was treated from a pup. 

I never buy it that the dog suddenly acts out. Problems develop. In the same way you fix problems over long periods of time too. It doesn't happen over night generally


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## GypsyGhost

I would have him checked by a vet. See if there's any sort of medical reason this could be happening. Tough situation. Sorry you're dealing with it. The one thing I would say is that if you decide not to put him down, you need to adopt some better safety measures immediately. Muzzle, crate, something to keep everyone safe until you have a better handle on the situation. Best wishes in whatever you choose to do.


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## MarkJoel60

Stonevintage said:


> So sorry you are going through this OP. Have you discussed medication with any of the vets? Some don't want their dogs medicated every day, but if it's between that and death.....
> 
> Also consider the lowly muzzle. Military dogs wear them all the time and for lengthy amounts of time - There are several that a dog can eat and drink through - design has improved for comfort to the dog as well.


I actually have been reading a lot about Dr. Dodd's research into Thyroid issues. Some of that tracks with Ninja's behavior, and some doesn't. I will at some point go down that oath at least somewhat.

As for other medications, such as Dog Prozac, or Valium. IDK. Keeping him in a drugged stupor doesn't seem worth it. 

As far as the muzzle the problem is he really can't wear it 24/7. The first two attacks came after a muzzle would have been off of him. So, that is a temporary solution, but it doesn't help the big picture, I don't think.

But thanks for the input


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh Boy you guys. Of all the stories of problems with aggression this is one of the worst cases I've read on this site.

Sometimes there is grey areas sure, but this definately is not one to give advice for over the Internet.

I'm not comfortable even suggesting another trainer.

All I can say to the OP is i had a rescue I fostered that had to be euthanized after he twice bit people. It was just too dangerous and too much of a liability. It was a young healthy dog too.

It's not an execution *if* you decide to euthanize your dog humanely. You have a very hard decision to make, your dog does have a dangerous aggression problem. Regardless if he is unstable or you didn't train correctly (which I've trained incorrectly too and did not get attacked) remember the safety and well being of you and your family is important too.

Best to you as you struggle with this decision.


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## Steve Strom

One definite change I would make MarkJoel, I wouldn't let him sleep loose in the house anymore. Really live carefully with him. I had to put down my first Shepherd at 2, I know it isn't easy, but do everything you can to avoid the situations you've had problems with him in.


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## Stonevintage

I was thinking that too. Confined at night, muzzle on during the day.


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## MyHans-someBoy

I haven't read all of the posts, but I saw where someone suggested that he could be in pain. I remember reading that he likes his rear legs and lower back massaged. Could he be in pain from spinal/hip problems. Animals are often good at masking pain. 
Another thing that stands out to me...the rage triggered on a car ride. Is he having to jump pretty high to get into the car? If so, it may be causing a lot of pain, then he acts out until the pain subsides and then settles down.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Could he be muzzled and taken to the vet to be checked out and maybe have X rays done on hips/spine?


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## llombardo

Have you ever had full blood work and X-rays on him? Every attack seemed to have something to do with his body? I'm not excusing any aggressive behavior but every trigger was touching him. The tick was where in his body? The burrs were where? The bathroom door shut where? Your daughter nudged him where? Is there a connection to any of these? Is he in pain and you don't know it?


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## DutchKarin

I guess the first thing is to understand that there are going to be some dogs that genetically have a rage problem and this may not be trainable. You can google rage syndrome in dogs. But the other thing is that what you have described may still needs to be evaluated by a very very capable trainer. I just don't think anyone on here can say anything definitively other than muzzle or crate but if done wrong I would imagine could increase barrier frustration and aggravate the problems. Sorry. This must be tough.


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## Jax08

I wonder how using an e-collar to train him at such a young age played into this? Also what his genetics are?

I would pay attention to what Jim and Steve have said. Especially Jim's post.


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## gsdsar

Brutal honesty here. Put him down. The liability of this dog is ginormous. It's you who keep getting bit, but what if your daughter did not have s back pack on? What if it's a friend? 

This dog will never be fixed, he will be managed, and you will always be ready for another mauling. There will never be/and should not be now, laying on the floor together. What if he came at you laying down, you have no leverage. 

I am sorry. And I know you are trying hard, I respect the heck out of you. I really do. But this is too much. This is 4 true serious attacks, on you his owner and caretaker. 

I am sorry, put him down. For your own safety.


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## Muskeg

I'm so sorry, this is well beyond my skill set. Perhaps someone can recommend a trainer to help you in person. This is not something to be fixed on an internet forum! You need a good trainer's input and expertise. Focus on finding one, if you are committed to this dog.

I don't believe pain is the issue. Dogs in pain don't attack people for sustained periods of time.


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## glowingtoadfly

My heart goes out to you. Grim is 2, and by the time he was 1 he had bitten the neighbor for coming into our yard. By the time he was 2 he had bitten me during a nail trim, breaking skin. We use a muzzle for nail trims now and are very careful about how we introduce strangers to Grim. He recently growled at a 17 year old kennel worker when she walked by his kennel at my work at a vet hospital. He doesn't go on walks in the woods because of the off leash dogs ( he is also dog aggressive, although both his dog and human aggression has gotten better). Everywhere I go, Grim's looks are complimented. He is a gorgeous liability, and every day my husband and I face our agreement that if he bites another person, he gets put down. So we manage oh so carefully, because we love him. He is a good dog, just to us, and we recently found a vet tech who does behavior who was able to handle him during a blood draw without him going over threshold and attempting a bite through his muzzle. Talk to David Winners. He may be able to help.


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## glowingtoadfly

I also can say that David has been our family's rock through this. He even offered to do a board and train for us. My husband was adamant that Grim's attachment to us and fear of everyone else would make that cruel. So we had to say no, although I am still very tempted!


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## selzer

The thing about him looking at you funny, and then it happened. And it took a while to get him out of it, and then he was his normal self again. 

Have you considered epilepsy? 

The dog was sleeping several times. And out of this sleep, he is coming up at you when you point at him, or go to pluck something off of him. I am guessing that you pluck things off of him frequently, but if he is in or going into one of these incidents, he reacts. Maybe he reacts because a sick animal's instinct is to protect himself from pack members who might kill him while he is down.

Your dog is not really that much of a liability. He bites you. When your adult children are around, use the muzzle or put him in his crate. Have him sleep in his crate. 

Illness or not, when you go to examine his fur or pull stuff off of him, muzzle him first. 

Yes, many of us who have pets would put a pet like this down. Too dangerous to us to have a dog that is attacking the handler. I think you can learn to tip toe around your dog, most of us won't do that. But, what I mean by that is, always tell him first, "Go lay down", no nudging, no taking the collar to get him where you want him, no just trying to grab a tick or burr off of him. No pointing at him. 

I don't know if he is protecting himself against what he feels is unjust punishment, or if he is irritable about his space being invaded, or if he is undergoing brain activity that hasn't progressed to seizures (won't if it is rage syndrome). 

I think that choosing to euthanize this dog wouldn't make you a failure or a horrible person. If we knew it was solely behavioral, someone could set up a plan for exercise, training, and management that might put you on the right course for the dog. 

I am sorry you are having this issue. It is a hard choice whichever way you go. Maybe one of those kids will present you with a grandchild, and then, things may be clearer. Again, really sorry. I hope there is some hope for your boy, because I know you love him.


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## glowingtoadfly

Sue, great post as usual!


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## Chip18

Even to me, this sounds a bit much?? A clear, I've not seen that before case??? A full "Blood Panel/Vet check seems to be well in order, before doing anything; other than as suggested a muzzled, no free roaming in the house (Crate or Place inside) and keep a "Drag leash" on the dog in the house. A short leash with no handle to get caught up on furniture.

Hm ... and most likely muzzle conditioning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOqf3NvUh5g

Most like this one is more suited here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_OcF1wbmnU

Something is off here??


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## Chip18

PM sent.


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## truckola

I have heard of two instances where a dog has a seizure, the owner then stays close to comfort the dog, as the dog comes back it attacks the person, some part of the brain that returns first is instinctive protection (for lack of a better description).


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## newlie

I have no experience with aggressive dogs so I am not going to make any suggestions about how to handle the aggression. It's just that the comment someone made about a brain tumor, and more especially Selzer's suggestion of possible epilepsy, resonated with me. Certainly, no one would blame you if you made the decision that "enough is enough" and put your dog put to sleep. But if you decide to try one more time, I think I would have him evaluated along those lines. 

A good friend of mine was subject to petit mal, not grand mal seizures. Unless you knew or were familiar with what she looked like during the episodes, you wouldn't have known she was having a seizure. She would sometimes rock back and forth, be unable to respond verbally, appear to be staring at you without really seeing you, etc. I don't know this for sure but I guess it's possible that your dog could be having something like this, and because he is not falling to the ground or frothing at the mouth, etc, it might not even enter anybody's mind that he is having some kind of seizure. And if that were the case, your dog may in fact not remember his behavior. My friend never really had any recollection of what went on during her seizures. And medication can sometimes help with these kinds of conditions.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

I am so sorry you are going through this, I know it must be heartbreaking. But, I'm going to put my two cents in also, and I strongly second the endorsement of Jim's posts (Slamdunc) especially, and Steve Strom. But you have to decide whether you are up to the job, whether you have the determination and persistence that you will need, and whether your family has what it takes to enforce and continue the management of this dog. Someone also mentioned David Winners... Last I knew, I believe he's in Oklahoma. He would definitely be at the top of my list if I thought I couldn't handle this myself. I am like you, I never want to give up on an animal, and have encountered a couple horses that exhibited dangerous behavior, and working with them means total commitment. Same with your Ninja, and I hope you have that commitment; whatever route you decide on, I hope things work out for you.

Susan


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Sue, not a liability? Regardless of the cause of the aggression, this dog is a liability.

Btw- Jax made reference to the use of an ecollar on this dog, so I looked at the previous posts made by the OP. There's some history here and problems even when the dog was 6 months old.


----------



## maxtmill

I am very sorry to hear of your situation. Many years ago, we had to have our gorgeous tri-color "well bred" collie put to sleep due to aggression. I am not a vet or a trainer, just a nurse. But, I think I would have your dog checked by the vet for any health/neurological issues, just to put your mind at ease. Then I would definitely have him put to sleep. The idea of a powerful dog such as a fully grown shepherd attacking is terrifying. Again, I am no expert, but I could not rationalize putting anyone in jeopardy. What a heartbreaking thing!


----------



## brucebourdon

Just awful, so sorry for your situation.

Good luck, God Bless you and your family.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sue, not a liability? Regardless of the cause of the aggression, this dog is a liability.
> 
> Btw- Jax made reference to the use of an ecollar on this dog, so I looked at the previous posts made by the OP. There's some history here and problems even when the dog was 6 months old.


 
Maybe, but the dog is handler aggressive, it isn't unpredictably attacking strangers. I am thinking of liability like in being sued and all the ugliness that is likely to follow that. This dog, from this post alone, not the history, isn't going after neighbor kids, it is going after the owner and his family. The fam is adult, they should be able to install some management techniques that would make it safer for them when they are there. The owner lives with the dog, they know whether or not the dog is a liability.


----------



## Stonevintage

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sue, not a liability? Regardless of the cause of the aggression, this dog is a liability.
> 
> Btw- Jax made reference to the use of an ecollar on this dog, so I looked at the previous posts made by the OP. There's some history here and problems even when the dog was 6 months old.



The old posts are relevant. Dog was handler/owner aggressive from a very young age. E-Collar was used then - worth reading to get some history. Relevant to recommendations asked for today.....


----------



## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> The old posts are relevant. Dog was handler/owner aggressive from a very young age. E-Collar was used then - worth reading to get some history. Relevant to recommendations asked for today.....


 I usually take just the post in front of me. I rarely connect what happened before, in previous posts, so I didn't know if there was history of stranger aggression or not. Since the history is also handler aggression, it sounds more like the liability is most likely to owner/family.

I don't know if that really will make a difference in the scheme of things. The dog went for the son and daughter, but the son at least may have been pain related. The daughter, well, we could manage some of that if everyone can be on board with management. 

If the owner assesses the situation and finds they really can't make it work, then I don't think anyone should give them a hard time for putting the dog down. If they choose to go ahead and try, I can understand that too.


----------



## Stonevintage

Made a difference to me in the context that it could be epilepsy or an illness that hasn't shown itself in other ways yet. I was thinking epilepsy maybe too until I read that this redirect to owner/handler has been going on off and on for a while.


----------



## llombardo

So things that we do know...

--Pup has always been high drive, high energy and mouthy
--E-collar was used at about 6 months
--somewhere after that a board and train
--then the random aggression

Some things we don't know...

--has breeder breeder been contacted?
--how long ecollar was used before it no longer worked and board and train came in
--what happened at the board and train?? Not that long ago another poster had a dog that bit after going to a "board and train". What methods did they use? Did they possibly hurt him? I've read before that some use the hang the dog method--if this is done and done wrong that can't be good. The carotid artery can be damaged and neurological damage can be done. Damage can occur due to trauma to the neck. How did they manage to train him and he did well after two weeks?

Just some thoughts, because my first thought went right to the board and train almost immediately.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I didn't want to be the bad guy and point out the negative comments against this board in the Op's first post. 

Then I read the ecollar thread and thought here is the perfect storm of a person who got too much dog (*probably*), didn't want to take advice or take a step back and continued down the wrong path from the sounds of it.

Yes, in that the owner won't sue himself if his dog bites him, no liability. In that the dog has agressed at family members, redirected, that suggests a liability.

Sounds like the dog cannot be trusted with visitors in the house either, based on needing Ace before a vet could handle him. Not sure, but if it were my dog I'd be leery about the people he comes in contact with.

Agree with others though, if it could be done safely, a vet visit to rule out health issues just to cover all bases is appropriate too.

I wonder about the breeder too Lisa, but given the time and severity of the problem I wonder what the breeder could do?




selzer said:


> Maybe, but the dog is handler aggressive, it isn't unpredictably attacking strangers. I am thinking of liability like in being sued and all the ugliness that is likely to follow that. This dog, from this post alone, not the history, isn't going after neighbor kids, it is going after the owner and his family. The fam is adult, they should be able to install some management techniques that would make it safer for them when they are there. The owner lives with the dog, they know whether or not the dog is a liability.


----------



## LaRen616

JMO, if you get the blood work done and have him checked over by a Vet and he is deemed healthy with no health issues, I personally would not be able to overlook all of these bites. If I were to be severly bitten by my dog 1 time I would have trust issues and would be leary of him but 4 serious bites as well as him going after 2 of my children, I would have him put to sleep. He is not only a danger to you but he is also a danger to the rest of your family and anyone that comes over to your house.

It's very clear that you love your dog because you haven't given up on him and that's wonderful of you to try so hard to figure out a way to make it work. I am so sorry you are going through this.


----------



## Castlemaid

MarkJoel, I'm so sorry that you are having to consider such a difficult thing, but I think you may have to seriously consider putting this dog down if after a full vet work-up he comes out clear and no other explanation for his behaviour is found. 

Hard to give advice over the internet when you don't see the dog and don't see the interaction between the people and the dog - it could be a case of a spoiled dog that was never given any boundries, but it does not sound like it to me. 

I raised a dog that was acting almost exactly as yours - his unprovoked aggression turned on when he hit puberty - about 8, 9 months old, and gradually got worse. I ended up sending him back to the breeder for "evaluation", but in my heart, I knew he was going to be deemed unbalanced and dangerous and put down. Sending him back was the one of the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. You get so attached, and this was my first puppy ever (my previous dogs have been adopted as adults), and he was my Schutzhund dog. 

He was the best dog ever, eager to please, easy to train. He loved obedience and worked his heart out for me. His protection was focused and clear headed, no redirection of aggression, would out for me on first command each and every time. I never had to give him a command twice, he always obeyed me on the first command - ignored other dogs when out and about - can't say enough good things about this dog, except when, like your dog, his eyes changed and he came at me. Always the hands too, just as you described, and I had to control him exactly as you were doing - grabbing his collar and holding him up at arm's length. Fortunately for me, he was a smaller dog (50-60 lbs), and I'm a big girl, so I has the strength to do this, but it was like waves of aggression, with the low, low growl that makes the hair on your nape stand up, rolling in and out in waves. 

Sometime something innocuous would trigger his outburst, like me bending down to pick up a piece a paper, and sometimes nothing - he would have his head in my lap, looking for petting and . . . snap! Or he would wake up from a nap growling, and start going through the house with his low growl looking for me . . . his eyes were cloudy and strange, like he wasn't himself. 

One thing I could do was redirect him into obedience, if he wasn't to far into his fits. But that didn't always work. I still have the scars on my hands and arms to show for it. The dog came from a breeder that consistently produced well-rounded family dogs with a ridiculously high-number of them being titled Schutzhund dogs, SAR and Cadaver dogs, agility and obedience dogs, and who know what else, and mine was a fluke - yeah, lucky me!

The breeder was wonderful and gave me nothing but help and support. We did full vet work-ups - everything came back normal (we, as in the breeder helped pay for some of the vet costs). They have been asking for me to send the dog back so they could see his behaviour for themselves, but in my heart I knew that if I sent the dog back, I would never see him again. What decided me to send him was that one day, the dog went for my face instead of just my hands or my arms - 

He did have ONE such outburst when back at the breeders', so at least, they could see that it wasn't anything they did, or anything I was doing, but otherwise, he was a great dog. 

He ended up being evaluated and purchased as a police dog prospect - but right off the bat the same issues came up with his new handlers, and he got worse, even when handled by some very experienced people who had a knack to work with difficult dogs. He was almost put down, but the trainer who bought him wanted to give him one more chance and decided to keep him for himself. 
The dog would live in a kennel and came out for work and training - so not a house dog. The new owner was able and willing to put up with his outbursts and could read him well enough to know when to step in and take control, and when to step away and not push. The trainer worked with police K9 handlers, so he figured if his students could handle this dog, they can handle any dog. 

I occasionally get updates on him, and he is still doing well, the new owner loves him, and over the years, the outbursts faded away. I guess we will never really know what caused them, if it was medical (though nothing medical was found), and if the brain was wired wrong, why it went away after a few years?

At any rate, this outcome of this dog finding an owner that can handle him and live with the aggression is a one-of. I think such a dog in any other home would end up being put down. I know that without the breeder help and support, I would have faced the same decision.

Right now, your dog is acting out with triggers and going for you hands only - this may progress to no triggers, and going after other people in your family. 

I shared my story ( I rarely do - I know it will attract criticism from many) to let you know that others have been in this situation, and it could be the dog, and not you, and the right decisions are often the hardest ones. I still love my little crazy guy, and still miss him, but I knew that I could not handle him and was a danger to me. Something was off with him, and it was not something that could be fixed. 

If I were you, I would go for the full vet work up, and go from there. But you may need to prepare yourself to go through one of the hardest decisions in your life.


----------



## newlie

Castlemaid said:


> MarkJoel, I'm so sorry that you are having to consider such a difficult thing, but I think you may have to seriously consider putting this dog down if after a full vet work-up he comes out clear and no other explanation for his behaviour is found.
> 
> Hard to give advice over the internet when you don't see the dog and don't see the interaction between the people and the dog - it could be a case of a spoiled dog that was never given any boundries, but it does not sound like it to me.
> 
> I raised a dog that was acting almost exactly as yours - his unprovoked aggression turned on when he hit puberty - about 8, 9 months old, and gradually got worse. I ended up sending him back to the breeder for "evaluation", but in my heart, I knew he was going to be deemed unbalanced and dangerous and put down. Sending him back was the one of the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. You get so attached, and this was my first puppy ever (my previous dogs have been adopted as adults), and he was my Schutzhund dog.
> 
> He was the best dog ever, eager to please, easy to train. He loved obedience and worked his heart out for me. His protection was focused and clear headed, no redirection of aggression, would out for me on first command each and every time. I never had to give him a command twice, he always obeyed me on the first command - ignored other dogs when out and about - can't say enough good things about this dog, except when, like your dog, his eyes changed and he came at me. Always the hands too, just as you described, and I had to control him exactly as you were doing - grabbing his collar and holding him up at arm's length. Fortunately for me, he was a smaller dog (50-60 lbs), and I'm a big girl, so I has the strength to do this, but it was like waves of aggression, with the low, low growl that makes the hair on your nape stand up, rolling in and out in waves.
> 
> Sometime something innocuous would trigger his outburst, like me bending down to pick up a piece a paper, and sometimes nothing - he would have his head in my lap, looking for petting and . . . snap! Or he would wake up from a nap growling, and start going through the house with his low growl looking for me . . . his eyes were cloudy and strange, like he wasn't himself.
> 
> One thing I could do was redirect him into obedience, if he wasn't to far into his fits. But that didn't always work. I still have the scars on my hands and arms to show for it. The dog came from a breeder that consistently produced well-rounded family dogs with a ridiculously high-number of them being titled Schutzhund dogs, SAR and Cadaver dogs, agility and obedience dogs, and who know what else, and mine was a fluke - yeah, lucky me!
> 
> The breeder was wonderful and gave me nothing but help and support. We did full vet work-ups - everything came back normal (we, as in the breeder helped pay for some of the vet costs). They have been asking for me to send the dog back so they could see his behaviour for themselves, but in my heart I knew that if I sent the dog back, I would never see him again. What decided me to send him was that one day, the dog went for my face instead of just my hands or my arms -
> 
> He did have ONE such outburst when back at the breeders', so at least, they could see that it wasn't anything they did, or anything I was doing, but otherwise, he was a great dog.
> 
> He ended up being evaluated and purchased as a police dog prospect - but right off the bat the same issues came up with his new handlers, and he got worse, even when handled by some very experienced people who had a knack to work with difficult dogs. He was almost put down, but the trainer who bought him wanted to give him one more chance and decided to keep him for himself.
> The dog would live in a kennel and came out for work and training - so not a house dog. The new owner was able and willing to put up with his outbursts and could read him well enough to know when to step in and take control, and when to step away and not push. The trainer worked with police K9 handlers, so he figured if his students could handle this dog, they can handle any dog.
> 
> I occasionally get updates on him, and he is still doing well, the new owner loves him, and over the years, the outbursts faded away. I guess we will never really know what caused them, if it was medical (though nothing medical was found), and if the brain was wired wrong, why it went away after a few years?
> 
> At any rate, this outcome of this dog finding an owner that can handle him and live with the aggression is a one-of. I think such a dog in any other home would end up being put down. I know that without the breeder help and support, I would have faced the same decision.
> 
> Right now, your dog is acting out with triggers and going for you hands only - this may progress to no triggers, and going after other people in your family.
> 
> I shared my story ( I rarely do - I know it will attract criticism from many) to let you know that others have been in this situation, and it could be the dog, and not you, and the right decisions are often the hardest ones. I still love my little crazy guy, and still miss him, but I knew that I could not handle him and was a danger to me. Something was off with him, and it was not something that could be fixed.
> 
> If I were you, I would go for the full vet work up, and go from there. But you may need to prepare yourself to go through one of the hardest decisions in your life.


I can't think why anyone would criticize you after reading this story. If they do, they deserve a good kick in the pants and I'd be perfectly willing to give it to them.


----------



## LouCastle

MarkJoel60 said:


> Ninja, my black GSD who is about 3 1/2 years old has developed dangerous aggressive behavior. I have suffered 4 attacks, and I have had two different "trainers" tell me to put him down. (The third didn't think that was necessary, but believes it will be hard work and it will be touch and go.)


I'm having a déjà vu. I'm pretty sure that I've spoken to you about this issue. But maybe it was just someone with a nearly identical issue. Or, I'm old and I can't remember what I had for breakfast this morning. 

This does not sound like a training issue to me. Due to the sudden turn−on and turn−off, your description of how he looks, especially his eyes during some of these incidents, it sounds organic. If it is organic, no amount of training will fix it. If it is organic it might be as simple as putting the dog on medication. He might return to being a "normal" dog if the right meds can be found. That being said, there are "Charley Mansons of the dog world." There is something wrong in their brain and no amount of training or meds (unless they're made catatonic) will fix it. for them, the only fix is being PTS. 

The problem is finding out what your dog's issue is. 

I've heard of cases like this before and then it was an issue of the thyroid not putting out the right amounts of a couple of chemicals. In order to find this it's necessary to do a "FULL thyroid panel." If you just ask the vet for a "thyroid panel" they don't go deep enough to find the issue. In some areas, vets with little experience, do not know what a FULL panel is, so you might have to hunt around for one with more experience and knowledge. 

The bad news is that the FULL thyroid panel is expensive. The good news is that if that is the issue, he'll return to "normal" with regular meds.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you are having all of these problems. I've been in your situation owning a handler aggressive dog and it sucks. However, you need to handle the situation differently.


The OP's situation sounds like far more than a handler aggressive dog. Such dogs are usually OK until and unless the handler tries to force him to do something that he does not want to do. I've seen hundreds of handlers with bloody forearms when they gave such dogs a too-harsh correction and the dog responded by biting them. That IS NOT this situation. 

There are several ways of dealing with a handler aggressive dog. One is to *****-foot around the dog, hoping to avoid having to force him to do something that he does not want to do. Another is to try to physically dominate him. Either of these is a disaster waiting to happen. In the first case, sooner or later the dog will need a correction and then – LOOK OUT! The second way can break the dog, put the handler in the ER or a combination of both. 

I handle those situations by using the Ecollar with drive training. I've worked with dozens of such dogs and in 35+ years of dog training have never gotten a handler bitten by his dog. It's easy to avoid, but since that is not the issue here, it's off−topic. 



Slamdunc said:


> There are ways to deal with a dog like this and to be successful. First, it is hard to really say 100% if your dog has a mental or physical issue based on reading post. * I'm leaning towards the idea that Ninja is a spoiled brat, that can be aggressive and has never had a real meaningful correction for this behavior. *


This sounds like the "physically dominate the dog" approach and I could not disagree more. If this was a "brat issue" the biting incidents, such a dog's way of expressing himself, would be more numerous. Such dogs bite for all sorts of imagined or real infractions. Don't put the food bowl down fast enough, you get bitten. Don't open the door fast enough when he wants to go out, you get bitten. Don't play when he's in the mood, you get bitten. These incidents and the attendant observations of the dog do not fit this mold. 



Slamdunc said:


> Can't you put him in a crate inside the car, that pretty much would solve the destructive behavior in the car. I had a dog that ate the entire back area of my new Volvo station wagon years ago.


Back in the days before custom−made aluminum K−9 containers (crates) that replaced the back seats of police K−9 police cars, it was fairly common for police K−9's, especially those that had been trained for "car aggression" (IMNTBHO a serious mistake) to eat/destroy everything that was not metal on the interior of the police cars, from the dashboard padding to the rubber material on the steering wheel, to the headliner. 



Slamdunc said:


> I'm sorry, but I am not the most politically correct person on dog forums. I am also rather blunt and do not sugar coat things very well when it comes to aggression.
> 
> When he looked at you funny, he should have been sternly corrected verbally, and you should have readied yourself for a fight.
> 
> In essence, the funny look absolutely leads to biting.
> 
> ... That is the time that I would have my come to Jesus meeting with your dog. I do not alpha roll dogs and I do not hit dogs. My hands are for praising and petting. But, I would in a matter of seconds instill the firm believe in your dog that biting me would be a very bad idea. A belief that the dog would carry with him for a very long time.
> 
> ... Hold the dog up calmly, until the dog is almost gassed out. Then you lower the dog to the ground, and allow it to recover. Saying "Ninja, what happened to you? You don't want to do that again, do you?" It is very effective, but best done with a trainer or some one to guide you that has handled aggressive dogs.


Just remember that hanging a dog (how's that for being politically correct?) is a self−defense move, not a training technique. If a large, strong dog comes up the leash at me, he's going to be rendered unconscious. As soon as he passes out, he's lowered to the ground and allowed to recover. I think it's silly to have a conversation with the dog. He knows what just happened. It's important to be calm, not angry, but asking the dog _"... what happened to you?"_ is goofy. 

THAT IS NEVER SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR DISOBEYING COMMANDS. * IT'S ONLY FOR SELF DEFENSE, * to prevent injury to the handler. It's not done for a growl or a snarl, ONLY for a bite or an attempted bite. In my career, once or twice I had to do it a second time, because as soon as the dog woke up, he renewed his attack on me. ONCE, I had to do it a third time. It's done calmly and quietly. All you're doing is showing the dog that you're bigger and stronger than he is, something that most dogs probably already know. Once that is established, you can get back to training. 



Slamdunc said:


> From what you describe, your dog is reactive and aggressive to pain; ie the incident in the dark hall with the bathroom door. Because of that I would not use a prong or E collar to correct this dog as that may make the situation much worse.


I would not use a pinch or Ecollar "TO CORRECT" this kind of behavior. But using the Ecollar with my methods does not involve corrections. If the issue turns out not to be organic, the Ecollar is probably the best tool/method to use with such a dog. [/quote] 



Slamdunc said:


> I would use a Nylon slip collar, even the one that * Leerburg sells as a dominant dog collar. *


_ Gotta go off topic for a moment. Leerburg's dominant dog collar is a waste of money and one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated on the dog training public. If you need this kind of tool just use a choke chain with a split−ring type key ring to keep it snug against the dog's neck. The key ring needs to be larger than the rings on the choke chain. Put the choke chain on the dog and move it up high on his neck, just behind his ears. Pull on the live ring gently to find the link that makes it the proper size and put the key ring through that link on the live link side of the chain. That will keep it snug and high on the dog's neck. Attach the leash to the live ring of the collar, just as 'normal.' Poof, you have a one−size−fits−all dominant dog collar. Leerburg's claim that a metal collar, used like this, v. one made of rope, will cause physical damage, is absurd. Such damage is caused by pressure against the internal structures of the dog's neck. That has to do with the diameter of the material used, not what it's made of. _


----------



## Chip18

Castlemaid said:


> MarkJoel, I'm so sorry that you are having to consider such a difficult thing, but I think you may have to seriously consider putting this dog down if after a full vet work-up he comes out clear and no other explanation for his behaviour is found.
> 
> Hard to give advice over the internet when you don't see the dog and don't see the interaction between the people and the dog - it could be a case of a spoiled dog that was never given any boundries, but it does not sound like it to me.
> 
> I raised a dog that was acting almost exactly as yours - his unprovoked aggression turned on when he hit puberty - about 8, 9 months old, and gradually got worse. I ended up sending him back to the breeder for "evaluation", but in my heart, I knew he was going to be deemed unbalanced and dangerous and put down. Sending him back was the one of the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. You get so attached, and this was my first puppy ever (my previous dogs have been adopted as adults), and he was my Schutzhund dog.
> 
> He was the best dog ever, eager to please, easy to train. He loved obedience and worked his heart out for me. His protection was focused and clear headed, no redirection of aggression, would out for me on first command each and every time. I never had to give him a command twice, he always obeyed me on the first command - ignored other dogs when out and about - can't say enough good things about this dog, except when, like your dog, his eyes changed and he came at me. Always the hands too, just as you described, and I had to control him exactly as you were doing - grabbing his collar and holding him up at arm's length. Fortunately for me, he was a smaller dog (50-60 lbs), and I'm a big girl, so I has the strength to do this, but it was like waves of aggression, with the low, low growl that makes the hair on your nape stand up, rolling in and out in waves.
> 
> Sometime something innocuous would trigger his outburst, like me bending down to pick up a piece a paper, and sometimes nothing - he would have his head in my lap, looking for petting and . . . snap! Or he would wake up from a nap growling, and start going through the house with his low growl looking for me . . . his eyes were cloudy and strange, like he wasn't himself.
> 
> One thing I could do was redirect him into obedience, if he wasn't to far into his fits. But that didn't always work. I still have the scars on my hands and arms to show for it. The dog came from a breeder that consistently produced well-rounded family dogs with a ridiculously high-number of them being titled Schutzhund dogs, SAR and Cadaver dogs, agility and obedience dogs, and who know what else, and mine was a fluke - yeah, lucky me!
> 
> The breeder was wonderful and gave me nothing but help and support. We did full vet work-ups - everything came back normal (we, as in the breeder helped pay for some of the vet costs). They have been asking for me to send the dog back so they could see his behaviour for themselves, but in my heart I knew that if I sent the dog back, I would never see him again. What decided me to send him was that one day, the dog went for my face instead of just my hands or my arms -
> 
> He did have ONE such outburst when back at the breeders', so at least, they could see that it wasn't anything they did, or anything I was doing, but otherwise, he was a great dog.
> 
> He ended up being evaluated and purchased as a police dog prospect - but right off the bat the same issues came up with his new handlers, and he got worse, even when handled by some very experienced people who had a knack to work with difficult dogs. He was almost put down, but the trainer who bought him wanted to give him one more chance and decided to keep him for himself.
> The dog would live in a kennel and came out for work and training - so not a house dog. The new owner was able and willing to put up with his outbursts and could read him well enough to know when to step in and take control, and when to step away and not push. The trainer worked with police K9 handlers, so he figured if his students could handle this dog, they can handle any dog.
> 
> I occasionally get updates on him, and he is still doing well, the new owner loves him, and over the years, the outbursts faded away. I guess we will never really know what caused them, if it was medical (though nothing medical was found), and if the brain was wired wrong, why it went away after a few years?
> 
> At any rate, this outcome of this dog finding an owner that can handle him and live with the aggression is a one-of. I think such a dog in any other home would end up being put down. I know that without the breeder help and support, I would have faced the same decision.
> 
> Right now, your dog is acting out with triggers and going for you hands only - this may progress to no triggers, and going after other people in your family.
> 
> I shared my story ( I rarely do - I know it will attract criticism from many) to let you know that others have been in this situation, and it could be the dog, and not you, and the right decisions are often the hardest ones. I still love my little crazy guy, and still miss him, but I knew that I could not handle him and was a danger to me. Something was off with him, and it was not something that could be fixed.
> 
> If I were you, I would go for the full vet work up, and go from there. But you may need to prepare yourself to go through one of the hardest decisions in your life.


The old "my dog changed thing" happened to you also??

I thought it was just us GSD "newbies" that experienced, that, at any rate it sounds like it was a good outcome all around for the dog anyway.

Has "return" to breeder been brought up as an option???


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> To start gaining a leadership role, I would start feeding your dog by hand. He only eats when you feed by hand and he earns every handfull.
> 
> I would not allow this dog on the bed, or to seek and receive any unsolicited affection. He must earn the affection. No petting because he is cute, good looking or seeking it.
> 
> He sits and waits before he goes out any door or through any opening, you go first.


This sounds like some of the NLIF protocol. I think it's a waste of time. 



Slamdunc said:


> * He needs some serious obedience. * The obedience can be motivational but he must obey and earn his rewards.


Trying to do some _"serious obedience"_ may, and it's a good probability, get you bit. And, if the problem is organic, will do nothing to fix it. Once the medical issues are eliminated, using my methods and teaching the recall, the sit, and the down is, I think, the best way to establish leadership. Combine the Ecollar training with my article ESTABLISHING LEADERSHIP and you'll be good to go. 

I realize that you have some history with this dog and that you may never trust him if the cause is not organic. But I'd never recommend putting a dog down unless I'd personally seen him and worked with him. 



Slamdunc said:


> I would use the old yank and crank methods to make him oblige.


If you follow this advice make sure that you have plenty of bandages handy. Why anyone would advise this confrontational, "head−on" approach, especially to a pet owner with a dog like this, when it's just about guaranteed to make things worse, before they get better, IF they get better, is a mystery. But there are plenty of people who follow this old−school way of dog training.


----------



## LouCastle

llombardo said:


> Have you ever had full blood work and X-rays on him? Every attack seemed to have something to do with his body? I'm not excusing any aggressive behavior but every trigger was touching him. The tick was where in his body? The burrs were where? The bathroom door shut where? Your daughter nudged him where? Is there a connection to any of these? Is he in pain and you don't know it?


YAY. BEFORE you do anything in the way of trying to train this out, get him to a vet.


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## Hector3

Full thyroid panels are not expensive. It was less than $150, but a friend in RI had one done and it was $200. I am located in WA state. The test itself was only $50 and the rest was office fee and other charges. Make sure to ask your vet do the MSU panel or the Dr. Dodds one. I had the MSU panel done during xmas. Results come back in a week and make sure to have the vet have an endocrinologist interpret the results. 

If my own dog ever attacked me to that extent, actually if my dog ever bit me intentionally, he'd be PTS, no question about that. This is absolutely horrible.


----------



## Steve Strom

Hey Mark, are you still using the ecollar with him?


----------



## selzer

Hector3 said:


> Full thyroid panels are not expensive. It was less than $150, but a friend in RI had one done and it was $200. I am located in WA state. The test itself was only $50 and the rest was office fee and other charges. Make sure to ask your vet do the MSU panel or the Dr. Dodds one. I had the MSU panel done during xmas. Results come back in a week and make sure to have the vet have an endocrinologist interpret the results.
> 
> If my own dog ever attacked me to that extent, actually if my dog ever bit me intentionally, he'd be PTS, no question about that. This is absolutely horrible.


 This is kind of like, if someone doesn't have a wheel chair, they shouldn't be in a handi-capped spot. 

If a dog is hurting badly, they do not always show it, and aggression is often the symptom of this. Dog gets hit by a car, owner comes up and picks up the dog, the dog bites the owner in the face = put the dog down? I don't think so.

I don't know if there is a test for epilepsy. They usually rule other things out, when the dog has seizures and if there is no other reason, idiopathic epilepsy. 

I hope you get the answers you need.


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## Hector3

selzer said:


> This is kind of like, if someone doesn't have a wheel chair, they shouldn't be in a handi-capped spot.
> 
> If a dog is hurting badly, they do not always show it, and aggression is often the symptom of this. Dog gets hit by a car, owner comes up and picks up the dog, the dog bites the owner in the face = put the dog down? I don't think so.
> 
> I don't know if there is a test for epilepsy. They usually rule other things out, when the dog has seizures and if there is no other reason, idiopathic epilepsy.
> 
> I hope you get the answers you need.


With exceptions of course. Use common sense of course. I have a very nervous, fearful mastiff that is handler sensitive and can easily go into defense mode (low thresholds) against me and my bf. I still have him. He's almost 4 yrs old and I've had him since 5 months.


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## Steve Strom

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Mark, are you still using the ecollar with him?


I don't know if you'll still follow this or not Mark, but with your particular dog, I'm just kinda wondering if maybe what you described as corrections from God may have combined with his temperament or whatever other issues to lead to him being ready to bite at every slight little confrontation, or at least what his perception of a confrontation is. 

Never really feeling secure in his surroundings or environment. I'm not knocking you, its just that not every approach is right for every dog. Things have to be clear to them, and sometimes with the e, it may not be in every situation. 

Think safety whichever decision you make. Sometimes you have to avoid picking fights. Good luck.


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## Stonevintage

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Mark, are you still using the ecollar with him?


That would be interesting to know. If they stopped, why they stopped. The earlier posts sounded like it was working well.


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## MarkJoel60

OK, sorry I seemed to disappear. I have been running like crazy over here. I'm going to try to answer the questions raised, and ping me again if I miss anything.

First, Lou: Yes, we spoke on the phone. I am looking into the Blood Panel as we discussed. If I can get it done, Hemopet is much cheaper, and will be evaluated by (from what I can see) a leading expert in the field. So, I am still looking into how to accomplish that.

Second: Lucia -- OMG. Thank you for sharing, but that makes me almost depressed because it sounds exactly like Ninja's response.

Some other things (can't remember who asked...)

BREEDER: Very disappointed in the Breeder in all of this. I always check bloodlines before buying, and both of his parents came from a very well known breeder in the Western part of the USA. I don't want to name them because I don't know if any of this is genetic, or if they are aware of any of it if it is. But the breeder I bought him off of are kind of a mom and pop place. They told me when I got him that they never wanted any of their dogs to end up in a pound so if anything happened I should call them and they would take him back. I called them after the second attack. The follow me on facebook, and so were shocked when they heard I was giving him up. When I told them why they told me that they wouldn't take him. They advised me not to put him down, but they weren't touching a dog who attacked its owner. So, from now on, I will also check the bloodlines of the breeder to make sure there is no cowardice there, either.

E-COLLAR: Oh boy, folks can't let go of this can they? You ask if I am still using an e-collar on Ninja? Depends on how you define "use." He's wearing it right now. He gets it put on every morning, and I take it off every night. (He jumps for joy when he sees it, BTW.) So, if that means use it, sure. I use it. However, if you ask me the last time he was nicked (or "shocked" if you want to be blunt) -- I really can't remember. Most of the time, the clicker is on the hook near the door. The reason he wears it is so we can ensure a recall in case he decides to run out of our yard. (We have a fence, but he's very athletic and has manged to escape on a few occasions.) It seems irresponsible not to have some sort of restraint on him. 

The E-Collar is a tool. It is not barbaric when used correctly. Nor is it a short-cut. It does not scramble his brain with electricity. But, it is not the answer to this problem. We do not use the E-Collar to stop an attack as I really don't think it would work. In any event, usually I am too busy with both hands to be reaching for a clicker. But I think nicking him when he was in that state would simply make him more angry. I doubt it would deter it. Again, I am too busy fighting for my life to try.

When I say I have an E-Collar folks assume I have shocked the fur off of him, but I really haven't. I wish I had read Lou's protocol before I bought the E-Collar, because then I would have used it to train him. As it was I really only use it to enforce recall, and to make him stop going crazy over cars when we were driving. It is a tool, but not the primary one.

FREE RUN OF THE HOUSE: Obviously, Ninja no longer can roam wherever he wants to at night. He now sleeps in the bedroom with my wife and me. He *does not* sleep on our bed. He never has. We also do not permit him to get on any of the furniture.

As for the comments about getting more aggressive with him, or locking him up 24/7 and making him earn every bit of his food, affection, etc, some of these things have been suggested and considered. 

I don't like dogs locked up because one of the reasons he is here is for protection -- seems crazy maybe, because who is going to protect me from him, right? But the reality is that -- when he's not aggressive to me -- a huge percentage of the time -- he is watching over me. Someone said they don't like a dog following them around everywhere... I do. I like a dog who sleeps at my feet, who wakes up with me and falls into step by my side. I even sort of like the fact that Ninja lies by my side of the bed until I turn off my iPad and go to sleep before he moves over to his bed for the night. That's sort of the definition of _schutzhund_, right? He'd take a bullet for my wife, of that I have no doubt. We don't live in a bad area, but it is somewhat secluded. Having a 4-legged security system on the prowl is comforting. But, yeah, and night now his prowling days are over.

I guess if I get to the point where I have a dog who lives in a cage off to the side of the house and that I point to from a distance saying: "Yep, that's my Ninja!" isn't appealing t me. If that is how this has to be, then it will probably end with him being put down, I'll work through the aftermath of emotions, and then in a year or so I'll try again.

But I'm hoping to avoid that.

Thanks again for the input. I'm reading it all, and happy to hear more.


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## Jax08

Actually, many of the people that asked you if you still used the e-collar use e-collars. Including myself. Just before you get yourself all riled up over the questions.


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## Chip18

MarkJoel60 said:


> Thanks again for the input. I'm reading it all, and happy to hear more.


Just saw this "sucks" about the breeder let us know on the blood work.


----------



## Chip18

Hector3 said:


> If my own dog ever attacked me to that extent, actually if my dog ever bit me intentionally, he'd be PTS, no question about that. This is absolutely horrible.


 A rather broad statement and yes "most" ... dog owners would most likely say the same. 

If the dogs not "wired" right that's one thing other than that, it can be "worked out."


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## selzer

I wonder if at the board and train place they physically punished the dog. A dog like this, to train using physical force you would have to do something extreme. I suppose it is possible that the dog takes your reaching to pluck something off of him, pointing at him, or your daughter nudging him with her foot, as the precursor of that type of correction/abuse.

A solid physical correction, properly timed and for the right reason can nip a problem in the bud. It can work great. It can also backfire. 

None of us will ever know if this happened. I am thinking of that Chicago hag that put e-collars all over the dog, specifically vulnerable spots and was zapping the dog mercilessly. Probably 99% of board and train places are just fine, but there are scumbags out there.


----------



## Slamdunc

Slamdunc said:


> To start gaining a leadership role, I would start feeding your dog by hand. He only eats when you feed by hand and he earns every handfull.
> 
> I would not allow this dog on the bed, or to seek and receive any unsolicited affection. He must earn the affection. No petting because he is cute, good looking or seeking it.
> 
> He sits and waits before he goes out any door or through any opening, you go first.
> 
> He needs some serious obedience. The obedience can be motivational but he must obey and earn his rewards. The rewards can be a ball tossed, praise or food. Just so others understand, by motivational I mean working for praise and a reward. *I would NOT use the old yank and crank methods to make him oblige*. He is probably a smart dog, make it fun. But you control the game and the toys are yours. When you are done playing the toys go with you. They are not his. The "two ball" game is great to start.
> 
> Everything must be black and white, there can be no gray areas with this dog. I'm willing to guess if you step up and show him that you are in charge he will come around.


My mistake. I would NOT use the old yank and crank methods with this dog. 

Lou, thanks for pointing that out! It is the one time where your style of psoting was actually beneficial to me.


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## Hector3

Chip18 said:


> A rather broad statement and yes "most" ... dog owners would most likely say the same.
> 
> If the dogs not "wired" right that's one thing other than that, it can be "worked out."


Yeah. In the end it's up to the owner. It looks like he is doing more than what the average owner would do.


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## newlie

I don't know if you saw it, but question was earlier raised of checking for possible seizure activity. At least one poster said they knew personally of two instances where a dog coming out of a seizure attacked their owner. I am not sure what steps are involved to check for something like that. but thought I would mention it.


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## Chip18

Hector3 said:


> Yeah. In the end it's up to the owner. It looks like he is doing more than what the average owner would do.


 Well yes he is, unfortunately, other people are getting hurt. 

"Civilians" don't sign up for this kind of "crap" if "we" somehow end up with a handler aggressive dog (which despite my problems) I did not have that. 

And there is nothing wrong medically with the dog and we are in a position to keep other individuals from getting involved with "our" problems. Then I say yeah go for it! "We" dog/handler will figure it out! But when others start getting hurt .. that's a bit different.

Glad it's not make call to make.


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> My mistake. I would NOT use the old yank and crank methods with this dog.
> 
> Lou, thanks for pointing that out! It is the one time where your style of posting was actually beneficial to me.


LOL ... your not the first that ( misspoke and got hammered!) welcome to the club.


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## Slamdunc

Lou wrote:

*Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
I'm sorry, but I am not the most politically correct person on dog forums. I am also rather blunt and do not sugar coat things very well when it comes to aggression.

When he looked at you funny, he should have been sternly corrected verbally, and you should have readied yourself for a fight. 

In essence, the funny look absolutely leads to biting. 

... That is the time that I would have my come to Jesus meeting with your dog. I do not alpha roll dogs and I do not hit dogs. My hands are for praising and petting. But, I would in a matter of seconds instill the firm believe in your dog that biting me would be a very bad idea. A belief that the dog would carry with him for a very long time.

... Hold the dog up calmly, until the dog is almost gassed out. Then you lower the dog to the ground, and allow it to recover. Saying "Ninja, what happened to you? You don't want to do that again, do you?" It is very effective, but best done with a trainer or some one to guide you that has handled aggressive dogs.
Just remember that hanging a dog (how's that for being politically correct?) is a self−defense move, not a training technique. If a large, strong dog comes up the leash at me, he's going to be rendered unconscious. As soon as he passes out, he's lowered to the ground and allowed to recover. I think it's silly to have a conversation with the dog. He knows what just happened. It's important to be calm, not angry, but asking the dog "... what happened to you?" is goofy. 

THAT IS NEVER SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR DISOBEYING COMMANDS. IT'S ONLY FOR SELF DEFENSE, to prevent injury to the handler. It's not done for a growl or a snarl, ONLY for a bite or an attempted bite. In my career, once or twice I had to do it a second time, because as soon as the dog woke up, he renewed his attack on me. ONCE, I had to do it a third time. It's done calmly and quietly. All you're doing is showing the dog that you're bigger and stronger than he is, something that most dogs probably already know. Once that is established, you can get back to training.*

I'm not sure why, but you edited my original post with your response? 

Fact is that the technique I described was for handler aggression, not disobeying a command. Let me be very clear, the technique I offered was for handler aggression. It is not a correction for disobedience. You made it seem like I was advocating this for disobedience? 

Next, the funny look is the start of the aggression. I realize your experience with handler aggressive dogs is limited. You have stated previously that you have never had a dog become handler aggressive with any handler that you have trained. Really? I have seen it and dealt with it on more than one occasion. I have handlers coming to me that train with other PD's that have these issues occasionally and seek my help. 

Getting back to using the technique for aggression, the "look" or giving the "handler the eye" is the first clue that you are about to be bit. Most people that have worked with dogs know this "look." If you can read a dog, you can see it and know immediately what is about to happen. When a dog gives this look and snarls, growls or bares teeth you are fortunate to have the extra time the growling took before the bite. 

For the folks reading this thread, dogs will often get a "glazed" look in their eyes just before they bite. It is what the FBI would call a clue.  If you see this look you need to be prepared. Some dogs will growl, others will simply lunge. There are always signs before a dog bites or attacks. The dogs body under goes physiological changes to quickly prepare itself for the fight. People do the same things, clenching fists, million mile stare, clenched jaw, squaring up, etc. are some of the signs in people. All dogs have signs or body language changes before they bite. You need to be able to read a dog and see the body language cues, they are there. 

My point in reference to correcting at the "look" verbally, then physically correcting instantly if that didn't work is to stop the behavior before the dog goes into a full blown rage. 

Trust me, the "Look" the growling or snarling leads to biting. The look leads to biting. Growling absolutely leads to biting in a dog like this. Why wait to be wearing the dog on your arm or chest and then try to correct. This aggression can not be tolerated and needs to be dealt with quickly, firmly and decisively. 

To handle a dog like this you need to have a game plan and be willing to execute it. The best time to correct for handler aggression is when the dog is thinking about it, ie the "look" or the snarl. That is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with quickly and firmly. This goes for the life of the dog. You can modify behavior, but you can not change temperament or genetics. The best thing that a handler in this situation can do is take the appropriate action at the right time. I can not stress this enough: You are already late if the dog is biting you. Your too slow, too weak, too old or not paying attention with a dog like this. To hang a dog in self defense means that you are probably already bit, maybe even tore up. It's hard to hang a dog with one good hand. 

The bottom line is to correct this behavior before the dog goes into the rage, when the dog thinks about becoming aggressive, just before he bites you. 

Regarding the dominant dog collar on Leerburg's site, it was developed by a friend, Bernhard Flinks. Bernhard showed it to Ed and he started marketing it. I can easily say that Bernhard, who is a top Police K9 guy in Germany and a world class Schutzhund competitor is awesome working dogs. Bernhard has more experience with aggressive dogs, training dogs and handling hard dogs than anyone I know, myself included. I've learned a few things from him over the years. The nylon slip collar is one of them. This technique does not work as well with a choke chain, the nylon collar is the way to go. You stay calm and handle business, quickly and effectively. 

I can only hope that I have clarified my post. I am finished with this thread, as it appears the OP has his mind made up on the best approach with this dog and no longer needs assistance. 

This is a dog, IMO that apart from a medical issue can be rehabilitated. This dog with the right handler or right approach will be fine. Good luck, I hope it works out for you.


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## Slamdunc

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... your not the first that ( misspoke and got hammered!) welcome to the club.



HA! Yes a typo, not my first and not my last. Sometimes my brain works faster than I can "hunt and peck."

Thanks for the warm greetings to the club…..


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## MarkJoel60

More info:

*Funny Look* - I don't know how best to describe it. It was not eyes narrowed. Or Glazed. But he looked at me. Later it seems to me that it wasn't a "normal" look -- but this happened fast. My mind may not have reconstructed things correctly. I was at the couch. My wife was putting together a new Vacuum Cleaner. Ninja was between us, very interested in what she was doing. Of course, Vacuum cleaners sometimes make him react. But he's never bit anyone because of them. He does snarl and growl at them though. My wife will have to give him commands sometimes to make him stop barking at it. Sometimes even makes him move away and sit. (And, sometimes they don't phase him at all... but most of the time, he gets a little "amped up" around them, when they are running...) SHe was putting a filter in it, and it wasn't running, and Ninja seemed fine. We had just come in from playing outside so he was pretty calm -- for him. It was at this time I was taking the small burrs out. He looked at me on the first one, because I think the "pluck" surprised him. The second time he looked and kept watching... that's what stands out in my mind as unusual. But there was no baring of teeth, no snarl. If his eyes narrowed, I missed it.

The problem with beating the crap out of the dog when it even looks at you sideways is sometimes you end up teaching the dog to stop warning you. I know of a handler who was rehabilitating a pit bull that had been taught not to growl because every time it did the owner beat it. The Pit Bull learned its lesson. When it finally went at the owner for real, he never heard it coming. 154 stitches later, I wonder if the guy still thinks that was a good idea... I actually wish Ninja would give MORE warnings. He is really smart. I prefer him to learn to warn when he is feeling uncomfortable than learning to attack with no warning.

*EPILEPSY*: No, I haven't checked him for that yet, either. It doesn't seem to track with his other behavior, although it is probably worth looking at since at least two of the times he came up out of dead sleep.

*DAUGHTER ATTACK*: This is the one that really concerns me, of course. That's when we decided to get other opinions and started thinking about putting him down. I get that it could have been a lot worse. What provoked it? I don't think it was pain. I think he felt frightened. When Ninja was younger my daughter worked at a kennel. When I would travel, she would take Ninja to the kennel with her (he was about 1 yr old then). He was always excited to go, but being stuck in a kennel all day didn't make him so happy. The day this attack happened, I had a bag packed upstairs and was going to leave on a trip. I think he was worried about being taken to the Kennel. I don't think he was trying to get out of the front door... I think he was trying to keep her from going out. Just a guess, of course. All of this is.

*I WOULD HAVE PUT HIM DOWN ALREADY* - I get that. If I were reading this online, I would say the same thing. If someone came to me with this story, I would say: do it now before it gets worse. (Did you miss the part where I said I actually scheduled this and tried to have him put down...?) That may still be the end result of this. IDK. Right now, I am just gathering things to look at before I pull the plug.


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## Chip18

*Hey ... I see a new trend! * 

*Until the medical conditions are determined everyone is guessing?? If the dog is medically sound then other options may be available for him?? Until we know folks should lighten up, the OP understands mistakes have been made! Alot us made mistakes, heck that's why I'm on this board, to try and keep others from making the same mistake I did! So maybe lighten up a bit on him??*


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## CindyMDBecker

I don't really have any sound advice ... just wanted to say I have been in your shoes (briefly) and feel your pain. I owned a very aggressive breed (Caucasian Ovcharka). Only had him 8 months. The last 2 months he did everything you are describing. He was a very large puppy (80 pounds at 8 months) and went at me without warning numerous times. I had all I could do to hold him off me on the leash. I contacted a few trainers (epic idiots) and called the breeder a couple times. She admitted one of the other litter mates was displaying this aggression also. Sadly his kidneys mysteriously and suddenly failed. He had to be put down within a 3-day period. I don't know if he had an underlying health issue (seems as though he must have). He was the most loving teddy bear of a dog just about always ... until he wasn't. I feel as though I failed him somehow but I did everything I was instructed to do. I'm sorry you are faced with this. I hope you get answers that will guide you to the right decision. I absolutely loved that dog ... it's obvious you love yours.


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## San

I don't have any advice to give.....just want to say that I am so sorry you are going through this. 

You obviously love Ninja a lot. Good luck!


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## llombardo

I would get hips checked and neck area.


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## Stonevintage

Well OP- there have been a lot of suggestions. Did any of them interest you?

Has there been anything mentioned that you haven't already tried?

We're with you and want desperately for your family and this beloved pet to end up with a good outcome..... 

We see from you what has not worked and you should not be in the place of having to reiterate and defend anything at this point. But, is there anything new that you haven't heard and already tried?

The one thing I read tonight is that you love the dog, but kenneling and muzzling is not going to work because your want a dog that will follow you around and guard.

So, that changes things..... If you don't have the dog you need....pull the handle. To go on with this seems pointless. You want what you want.....


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## MarkJoel60

Stonevintage said:


> Well OP- there have been a lot of suggestions. Did any of them interest you?


I'm still working on getting the Thyroid test. I am going to work through things form there.



Stonevintage said:


> Has there been anything mentioned that you haven't already tried?


Yes. But as I said, I am going to take a systematic approach. Strangely I am finding it hard to find a vet who knows much about the Thyroid issue. Still looking...



Stonevintage said:


> The one thing I read tonight is that you love the dog, but kenneling and muzzling is not going to work because your want a dog that will follow you around and guard.


Full time kenneling isn't an answer. I actually was working with him to take a muzzle. No matter what, that is a good idea. I bought him a very expensive cage muzzle so he could wear it and still breath and drink. I had been introducing him to it... feeding him through it... I feel like if I can condition him to take it, and he gets rewarded when he wears it (i.e. a run at the park) that he will get to the point that he loves getting it on.

The first Trainer sort of ruined all of my work though. When I got there, he told me to put the muzzle on Ninja, which I did. He then leashed him and started yanking him around his training facility. WHen he stopped, he expected Ninja to sit automatically. WHen Ninja didn't, he pushed down oh his back hips. Ninja responded the way I woudl expect when a total stranger did that. He launched at him and would have really hurt him, were it not for the muzzle. 

Ninja had never really worn a muzzle before, was in a strange place, and here was a guy trying to see if he'd act like a trained police dog. SMH.

Then he walked him around some more and this time pulled up on the leash to hold Ninja's head while pushing down on his rear legs. I guess he thought that would force Ninja to comply? 

Not exactly sure what Kung Fu thing Ninja did there, but he spun out of the hold, and launched at him again. The guy was clearly surprised and shaken. He handed the leash to me, and told me to try. I did. Walked Ninja around the circle. When I stopped Ninja just kept watching the "trainer" to see what he was doing. He wasn't about to sit calmly. I told the guy I could get him to sit with a command, but he had seen enough. Ninja had proved he was unstable because he was stressed out, he said. (I paid $120 for that evaluation...)

Anyway, I was worried about taking the muzzle off of him, so I decided to wait until we were back at home. Ninja managed to work the muzzle off, though, and scratched his eyeball in the process. That healed, but I haven't had the nerve to show him the muzzle again and start working with him. I will. I need to. But I haven't yet.


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## MarkJoel60

Chip18 said:


> *Hey ... I see a new trend! *
> 
> *Until the medical conditions are determined everyone is guessing?? If the dog is medically sound then other options may be available for him?? Until we know folks should lighten up, the OP understands mistakes have been made! Alot us made mistakes, heck that's why I'm on this board, to try and keep others from making the same mistake I did! So maybe lighten up a bit on him??*


Chip, thanks for the support! But honestly, nothing anyone has said so far has bothered me. 

I've survived a Ninja attack. This is nothing... :laugh:


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## MarkJoel60

CindyMDBecker said:


> I owned a very aggressive breed (Caucasian Ovcharka). Only had him 8 months. The last 2 months he did everything you are describing.


I've seen pictures. Those dogs are amazing. And I cannot imagine one of them coming at me like Ninja. Ninja is lightning quick and athletic. But one of those Caucasians could break me in half!



CindyMDBecker said:


> I contacted a few trainers (epic idiots)


Yeah. I met quite a few of them myself. No help but still charged me.



CindyMDBecker said:


> I feel as though I failed him somehow but I did everything I was instructed to do.


Exactly. Worst feeling in the world.


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## Spectrum

I don't have any advice, but I can only offer my condolences. That sounds like a terrible situation to be in.


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## llombardo

Check out these muzzles and maybe even call them

Working Dog Dry Goods - KENNEL


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## middleofnowhere

I look forward to seeing the results of the health tests.


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## MyHans-someBoy

In a post you mention the trainer pushing on his hips and he launched. In the same post, the trainer pushed on his rear legs and he spun and launched...could be thyroid, epilepsy, etc., but if all that comes back normal (and if it was my dog) I'd have the vet do spine and hip X rays. 
My dog has really bad hips and most people would never know by watching him play that he has hip problems at all. Your dog may not be limping either but lashing out instead when it gets to be too much...


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## Stonevintage

So happy to hear that you are not opposed to a muzzle. I think that will change the vibes that your dog is probably getting from those he has attacked or attempted to attack. I know I would feel a lot more confident and at ease as my dog's leader if I didn't need to be concerned about the "time bomb" going off. 

Sometimes when I really need an answer - I ask questions to people who I would be surprised would take the time to give me an answer because they're so busy. Heck, I even emailed our president when this health care requirement came to be and he sent me back an email which exempts me from the requirement because my state chose not to pick up the medicare supplemental. I'm sure it was a copy, but still I got exactly what I needed from the big boss lol.

I would try to send (PatriciaMcconnell).com an email explaining the situation and see if you might get something back from her. She's a behaviorist, very educated. Her bio is on page one. Can't hurt to try


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## Baillif

Fighting a dog isn't a good idea. Even if you win you're probably bleeding. We have brains. We should use them. If you need to correct your dog do it in a way where the dog has no recourse. Try to make it as impersonal as possible. Make it matter of fact. If you need to set up things in your favor to make sure this happens then that's what you have to do.

Dogs can learn to escape corrections and escape pressure through biting the crap out of their handlers. Sometimes it is a matter of pain induced redirections, sometimes it's a learned thing, but either way it isn't good. You don't want to try to overpower that kind of dog with a highly personal correction because you run a very high risk of getting hurt when the dog goes into defense. Be smart about it. Most times when I see this kind of thing it isn't medical. There is a genetic predisposition to that kind of behavior but also the dog learned that he could control people with his mouth and turn off pressure through aggression.

I've dealt with some proven man stoppers and trained them with pressure without ever having an issue or getting bit by being smart and good handling. Don't be stupid.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Was hoping you would chime in Bailiff.

:thumbup:


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## MarkJoel60

Baillif said:


> Fighting a dog isn't a good idea. Even if you win you're probably bleeding. We have brains. We should use them. If you need to correct your dog do it in a way where the dog has no recourse. Try to make it as impersonal as possible. Make it matter of fact. If you need to set up things in your favor to make sure this happens then that's what you have to do.


I'm not sure what you mean...? As described in the original post, Ninja has had several incidents of unprovoked attacks that came as an utter surprise.

How am I supposed to get out of that without bleeding and without "fighting?" I'd truly love to know!


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## G-burg

> Most times when I see this kind of thing it isn't medical. There is a genetic predisposition to that kind of behavior but also the dog learned that he could control people with his mouth and turn off pressure through aggression.


Exactly!

We had a dog like this in our club.. Not sure what caused the dog to escalate his aggression towards his handler, (well I kind of do) but boy did he want to kill him.. This dog was no joke and the handler had to be on guard any time he tried to make the dog do something.. Even to the point just a simple sit command and the dog would react.. He used a dominant dog collar and it worked well enough to get him to settle and calm.

Weird thing, I liked the dog a lot and interacted with him on a few occasions at club.. And I don't believe the dog ever went after the guys wife, but I know there was some concern..

I believe this dog was eventually PTS..


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## llombardo

middleofnowhere said:


> I look forward to seeing the results of the health tests.


I've been saying this, but more then blood tests are needed. X-rays are needed to.


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## MarkJoel60

MyHans-someBoy said:


> In a post you mention the trainer pushing on his hips and he launched. In the same post, the trainer pushed on his rear legs and he spun and launched...could be thyroid, epilepsy, etc., but if all that comes back normal (and if it was my dog) I'd have the vet do spine and hip X rays.


There is no question that Ninja has always been protective of his back-end. That said, as I mentioned in a previous post, he loves to have his back legs massage by my wife and me. It could be he is in pain there, but as long as he knows the contact is coming he doesn't seem to be overly protective.

That "loving the back leg massage" things started when he was a pup. He had some trouble with something that seemed to be panosteitis when he was a pup. He went running one day and came back screaming bloody murder. The way he was limping I knew it was in the rear. I felt his legs and they were cramping. I starting massaging them, and he chomped on my hand, but (he was a puppy) so it wasn't a problem. I stopped. He kept crying though and came back to me and I massaged him some more. I could tell he was putting it together, and after awhile, he stopped protesting entirely. (It wasn't a trigger point massage or anything... I was just trying to loosen his muscles.)

This went on for a few days. The pains went away. But he had learned about leg massages and ever since then he comes to my wife or to me and wants it -- especially after a long run. He's no dummy.

That's why I _think_ he likes the massaging.

As for the protectiveness, my suspicion is he came to us with a broken tail. Or a healed broken tail. When he was a pup and I was petting him, I noticed a "bump" along his tail. I investigated with (without squeezing hard) and he definitely was agitated by it. 

To this day at times he will suddenly bite at his tail (and then chase it around and around.)

If this only happened when his back was touched, I would definitely think they were related. But at least two of the attacks came when nothing was touching his tail or back legs. So -- although I am not dismissing that as a possibility -- it isn't the leading contender for me. 

As you say, tho, if the other stuff doesn't check out, I may look at that...


----------



## llombardo

MarkJoel60 said:


> There is no question that Ninja has always been protective of his back-end. That said, as I mentioned in a previous post, he loves to have his back legs massage by my wife and me. It could be he is in pain there, but as long as he knows the contact is coming he doesn't seem to be overly protective.
> 
> That "loving the back leg massage" things started when he was a pup. He had some trouble with something that seemed to be panosteitis when he was a pup. He went running one day and came back screaming bloody murder. The way he was limping I knew it was in the rear. I felt his legs and they were cramping. I starting massaging them, and he chomped on my hand, but (he was a puppy) so it wasn't a problem. I stopped. He kept crying though and came back to me and I massaged him some more. I could tell he was putting it together, and after awhile, he stopped protesting entirely. (It wasn't a trigger point massage or anything... I was just trying to loosen his muscles.)
> 
> This went on for a few days. The pains went away. But he had learned about leg massages and ever since then he comes to my wife or to me and wants it -- especially after a long run. He's no dummy.
> 
> That's why I _think_ he likes the massaging.
> 
> As for the protectiveness, my suspicion is he came to us with a broken tail. Or a healed broken tail. When he was a pup and I was petting him, I noticed a "bump" along his tail. I investigated with (without squeezing hard) and he definitely was agitated by it.
> 
> To this day at times he will suddenly bite at his tail (and then chase it around and around.)
> 
> If this only happened when his back was touched, I would definitely think they were related. But at least two of the attacks came when nothing was touching his tail or back legs. So -- although I am not dismissing that as a possibility -- it isn't the leading contender for me.
> 
> As you say, tho, if the other stuff doesn't check out, I may look at that...


You took the ticks off his back end, your daughter nudged him, most likely his side to back end, the door or even possibly his tail was stepped on by your son. Do the X-rays.


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## selzer

I would do the x-rays too. The trainer should have never pushed down on the back end. To get the dog to sit when you stop, you practice using the word SIT when you stop, and then you stop, and give the dog a chance to sit, if it doesn't pulling up on the lead a little and saying SIT, if that doesn't get him to sit, (I point at the rear end), but you can move your hand up under the back legs, helping him get into the sit position. But never squashing him into a sit by pressing on his back end. 

So, socking the trainer would have been in order. In hindsight, and, he probably would have called the cops, and you probably would have been arrested, but man, sometimes that kind of ignorance ought to be punishable in some way.

I hope you can figure this dog out. 

If the dog has terrible hips, and is having a lot of pain, acting out aggressively, then you still have a decision to make. In that case the dog has bitten to protect himself. Most of our dogs will go a long way before a bite. This dog won't. There are surgeries for HD, but that doesn't mean that it will completely solve the problem. 

Personally, even if it turns out to be something with serious pain causing it, I wouldn't fault you for taking him in and having them put him down. We can't let dogs suffer. We can possibly, alleviate the pain, but if the dog still lashes out when he thinks someone is going to do something that might hurt him, that is still a liability, and sometimes, you can I dunno, sometimes you might say it is just better to let him go, peaceably. 

I know that sounds rough. But, I had a dog with a leg shattered, broken in more than 4 places after being hit by a car. My neighbors saw it happen, the dog got loose and ran in front of a truck. They called me and by the time I got there, he was hiding in the bushes with his leg all swelled up. I broke a crate in half and had him walk into the crate bottom. My neighbor's teenage son helped me carry that crate to his hatchback. The dog's face was right by my neighbor's son's face, and I know that dog was in pain. As we carried him across the lawn and into the car. He never showed any aggression.

And on and on and on, there are so many dogs out there that are not going to give so much as a nip or snap, And more that will go to that level but aren't biting when in serious pain. 

We all want to see the dog's issues be solved and the dog be a good pet for you, but a 3k, 6k, 10k surgery, and still you might have a dog that will come up the leash at you for a possibility of negative touch. I suppose the first step is knowing why the aggression, then you have to take all of your information and the best guesses of the experts and vets, and make a final decision for your boy. I am sorry, it is really a hard place to be in.


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## llombardo

The thing is the only time this dog attacks is when he is being touched. I would think an aggressive dog would attack no matter what, but this dog is not doing that.


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## LuvShepherds

It sounds like pain. Has he been examined for Anal fistulas or had an X-ray? I owned a dog that was a biter, but never harmed anyone in my family. I would bet it's medical, either pain or mental, caused by something wrong in his brain or body chemistry.


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## Baillif

I can't I've ever seen an unprovoked attack. There is always a trigger and always a leadup to the kickoff of the attack (although admittedly this window might be impractically small to be of much use)

Those cases need professional help with someone experienced with that sort of thing. A really good experienced trainer with those sorts of issues though, not some sit means sit or offleash k9 got my shingle after a 2 week internet course congrats youre a dog trainer trainer. You need a real trainer.


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## selzer

Baillif said:


> I can't I've ever seen an unprovoked attack. There is always a trigger and always a leadup to the kickoff of the attack (although admittedly this window might be impractically small to be of much use)
> 
> Those cases need professional help with someone experienced with that sort of thing. A really good experienced trainer with those sorts of issues though, not some sit means sit or offleash k9 got my shingle after a 2 week internet course congrats youre a dog trainer trainer. You need a real trainer.


 Cujo I never attacked anyone. But he had epilepsy. And when he was coming out of a bad seizure, my dad and my mom and I were standing over him, and you could see terror in him and no recognition of us at all. He could have attacked, unprovoked at that moment. It would have been understandable, but not provoked. I think the dogs that have rage syndrome have some sort of epilepsy. There is no trigger. Although I think epilepsy can be triggered by flashing lights. Not sure about that. Idiopathic epilepsy is diagnosed by ruling other things out, so it may have different causes (traumatic brain injury/lack of oxygen due to anesthetic issue/ genetic predisposition) and different triggers (flashing lights, various chemicals like weed killer, vaccines). 

Not saying this dog has any of that, but I think some dog attacks can happen without provocation, but it is rare.


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## Baillif

Eh in that case your provocation is standing next to him while hes seizing


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## selzer

Baillif said:


> Eh in that case your provocation is standing next to him while hes seizing


 I am sorry Baillif, but domestic dogs are companions to humans, we may have triggered his fear and survival instinct but non-threatening people existing near a dog is not provocation, else people would not have dogs. A dog with a brain-injury does not need provocation to attack.


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## Stonevintage

Epilepsy covers a broad base of different types and causes. I had a neck injury several years ago and 3 or 4 years after what I thought was a minor injury developed into seizures. I had to be on anti-seizure medication for 3 years. Then it left - nothing done - they were just gone.

My epileptic states were not what you would imagine. I would "feel fine" but when I tried to speak or move - well it was very like a stroke victim - garbled speech though I knew exactly what I wanted to say, it just came out wrong. 

Street lights at night tripped the seizures, flashing lights or being over tired or stressed. The new car headlights were killer. I usually came out of them very confused. Point is - I could certainly see how this could trigger a fight or flee response in a dog's mind. Your mind functions normally while speech, reading or regular movements are like being trapped in a foreigner's body. Then, panic sets in and that is where I could see a reaction and then quick recovery could happen....

The anti-seizure medication worked which confirmed the specialists diagnosis - whatever's in it has a fairly narrow specific function. Not a good drug though - knocks down your white blood cell count.


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## Muskeg

MarkJoel- you owe it to the dog and your family to find an experienced trainer. Then move forward with management-training he/she suggests after seeing the dog.

Honestly, a fast, strong, large dog- someone is going to get hurt, put that dog into fight-flight mindset and you've got a problem. My worst bite was from a friend's 14 year old dog that I accidentally put into fight-flight when I was trying to feed her a pill. So stupid on my part, I learned a lesson on that one. And this was an old, 45 lb dog. I can't even imagine what it would be like fighting a 90 lb strong, young dog and what kind of damage would result. I am strongly against the old style yank-crank for this type of dog because unless you really really know what you are doing it will go bad fast. And you'd need to be willing to hang the dog. And not feel bad about it- a hard task for most dog owners who are emotionally attached. 

The best suggestion I have is make a real effort to find a trainer who deals with dogs like this and has experience- someone like Bailiff- and work from there. In the meantime, keep everyone safe through management. But diagnosing and treating aggression as described by OP is not appropriate for a web forum. A discussion is worthwhile, and what the forum is for, but actually implementing a training plan to resolve this issue, that is where a hands-on trainer is desperately needed.


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## Muskeg

Stone- I see your point, for sure, the brain is a tricky and complicated thing and we don't know a whole lot about how it all works- but the sustained attacks the OP describes, and the heightened aggression that lasts for up to several hours- I just don't see this being a medical brain issue. 

Of course, whatever is going on with this dog is in the brain, so who really knows, but I doubt it is related to actual seizure activity. 

Of course, I have no idea. I suppose dogs could be subject to the wide range of mental illnesses people are, but we just don't tolerate those dog's behavior, whatever the reason. On the other side of the coin we can train these dogs in much harsher ways than would be tolerable or ethical for a human patient, and sometimes take care of the problem even if it is a mental-illness in the dog.

Agh, who really knows, the line between mental illness and aggression in dogs is super hazy at best. And irrelevant most of the time because treatment-training-end result doesn't change.


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## Baillif

People always chime in to assume cases like this are zebras when usually they are horses.


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## LouCastle

^^^^ Been sharpening your razor I see.


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## gsdsar

I agree.


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## Stonevintage

Muskeg said:


> Stone- I see your point, for sure, the brain is a tricky and complicated thing and we don't know a whole lot about how it all works- but the sustained attacks the OP describes, and the heightened aggression that lasts for up to several hours- I just don't see this being a medical brain issue.
> 
> Of course, whatever is going on with this dog is in the brain, so who really knows, but I doubt it is related to actual seizure activity.
> 
> Of course, I have no idea. I suppose dogs could be subject to the wide range of mental illnesses people are, but we just don't tolerate those dog's behavior, whatever the reason. On the other side of the coin we can train these dogs in much harsher ways than would be tolerable or ethical for a human patient, and sometimes take care of the problem even if it is a mental-illness in the dog.
> 
> Agh, who really knows, the line between mental illness and aggression in dogs is super hazy at best. And irrelevant most of the time because treatment-training-end result doesn't change.



I only brought it up because it has surfaced in this post several times. I doubt it too but for those looking at this post in the future, I thought might benefit.

There has been some mention in articles that the stereotypical tail chasing may also be a type of seizure activity. That opens a broader range of what you might see - it certainly is a different manifestation of what we think seizures to be.....

I do not agree with you that the difference in treatment does not change with a dog - it certainly does - many of the same medications used for people are now used in dogs with great success - some relatively recent and all in the area that works with these types of disorders.


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## selzer

Stonevintage said:


> I only brought it up because it has surfaced in this post several times. I doubt it too but for those looking at this post in the future, I thought might benefit.
> 
> There has been some mention in articles that the stereotypical tail chasing may also be a type of seizure activity. That opens a broader range of what you might see - it certainly is a different manifestation of what we think seizures to be.....
> 
> I do not agree with you that the difference in treatment does not change with a dog - it certainly does - many of the same medications used for people are now used in dogs with great success - some relatively recent and all in the area that works with these types of disorders.


 
I think that we want to discover a medical reason for behavior like this, because we could excuse a medical problem, even if aggression is the symptom of it. We would manage the dog and hopefully find medication that would limit the number or severity of incidents. 

Because flat out human aggression and especially handler aggression without something we can put our finger on, makes all of us vulnerable in a way. We like the idea that there are no bad dogs. Nature and nurture -- gives us a sense of security. I know the dogs behind my dogs, and I know that genetically, there is no reason any of them would bite me. And, so if one of them was showing aggression, I would want to put a finger on the cause. Pain, tumor growing in the brain, epilepsy, because without that, I have to look at what I might have done wrong to cause the aggression. And even then we would rather point out mistakes we have made than having no cause because we have control. 

If I can say, "e-collars caused this." Then I can not use an e-collar and I won't have the issue with another dog. 

Oftentimes it is a few facts and a whole lot of conjecture anyway, but we want to be able to blame something, else we have no control at all. 

It is like blaming the young lady for how she dressed, or what time she was out, where she was, or that she was drinking. If we dress more conservatively, come in at a reasonable time, stay away from some areas, and stay sober, we or our daughters will not be attacked. We are in fact, in our minds, in control by blaming the victim, or having some explanation.

There may be no explanation.


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## Chip18

Baillif said:


> People always chime in to assume cases like this are zebras when usually they are horses.





LouCastle said:


> ^^^^ Been sharpening your razor I see.


Dare I say ... "Pro" speak??


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## Stonevintage

selzer said:


> I think that we want to discover a medical reason for behavior like this, because we could excuse a medical problem, even if aggression is the symptom of it. We would manage the dog and hopefully find medication that would limit the number or severity of incidents.
> 
> Because flat out human aggression and especially handler aggression without something we can put our finger on, makes all of us vulnerable in a way. We like the idea that there are no bad dogs. Nature and nurture -- gives us a sense of security. I know the dogs behind my dogs, and I know that genetically, there is no reason any of them would bite me. And, so if one of them was showing aggression, I would want to put a finger on the cause. Pain, tumor growing in the brain, epilepsy, because without that, I have to look at what I might have done wrong to cause the aggression. And even then we would rather point out mistakes we have made than having no cause because we have control.
> 
> Oftentimes it is a few facts and a whole lot of conjecture anyway, but we want to be able to blame something, else we have no control at all.
> 
> There may be no explanation.


It is interesting to see one poster tell another that they're way off track and their post is right on the money. When you see that the trainer says its a training issue and the person with vet experience says it may be a medical problem etc.... Every post is conjecture based on what information can be and is communicated here and not one of us has hands on regardless of the experience they have. I think that sometimes that gets forgotten here......


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## maxtmill

Haha! It is true what StoneVintage says - everyone's input is coming from their own point of reference. Some members are trainers, others (human) medical professionals, some vet techs or veterinarians, some very experienced dog owners, and others are pet owners. But not one of us except this dog's owner has hands on expeience with this particular dog. As a Registered Nurse and dog lover, my point of reference would tell me to have the dog checked for medical issues in order satisfy my curiousity. Then I would hold my dog in my arms and have him put to sleep. Period. Then cry...alot. I will be anxious to hear what the OP decides and carries out with his dog. Again, the nurse in me is crying out, "Please let no one be seriously injured by this dog!"


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## newlie

I think Selzer is right in that we want this behavior to be the result of a medical problem as opposed to a behavioral issue. I know I certainly do. Whether it is or not, who can truly know at this point. Regardless, I still think a vet examination would be a good idea to try to rule out some of the possible physical causes. If the dog is cleared, then the OP will be faced with a hard decision about what to do next.


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## Chip18

And yet ... "anal" as always I am curious as to what the "Pro's" see that I do not?? Guess it's just me??


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## llombardo

newlie said:


> I think Selzer is right in that we want this behavior to be the result of a medical problem as opposed to a behavioral issue. I know I certainly do. Whether it is or not, who can truly know at this point. Regardless, I still think a vet examination would be a good idea to try to rule out some of the possible physical causes. If the dog is cleared, then the OP will be faced with a hard decision about what to do next.


The general rule of thumb whether it's a vet, medical person, pet owner, etc should be to rule out medical to get to behaviorial. Pinpointing that really decides the next step and how to go about it. Who wants to do more damage to this dog? I don't think anybody does. There was even that post with the dog with the retained testicle that turned aggressive. It all depends on the dog and the medical issue at hand if it's going to cause aggression. I've seen dogs in tons of pain not react at all, but if someone else seen them they wouldn't even know they were in pain, because dogs hide it pretty well in general.


----------



## Stonevintage

newlie said:


> I think Selzer is right in that we want this behavior to be the result of a medical problem as opposed to a behavioral issue. I know I certainly do. Whether it is or not, who can truly know at this point. Regardless, I still think a vet examination would be a good idea to try to rule out some of the possible physical causes. If the dog is cleared, then the OP will be faced with a hard decision about what to do next.


I agree also but I think when it's a post where what's at stake is the death of a GSD - we try to think of all possibilities as the owner has attempted to do. These types of posts are where I get very concerned when a certain point of view is promoted as "here is the answer - it's a training problem" or here is the answer it's an irreversible genetic/temperament problem.

As we have seen, direct statements such as these here have most likely contributed to the death of several GSD's. My only point is - when you are dealing with a very serious issue such as this that you consider how much is really known about the exact situation or what may really be going on before it is said "yes, I feel sorry for you but I had a dog just like this and he had to be put to sleep".

I just think each of us should be more careful with these posts and not treat them as just another stock answer to be given from a personal point of view.......


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## Baillif

The vast majority of issues that I deal with where a dog is biting people or being aggressive are operant behavioral issues that are addressed with operant conditioning training solutions. 

In layman it means they learned to be aggressive because it worked for them. 

They learned to stop because we taught them that it no longer yielded a desirable result. We then taught the handler a safe way to maintain this lesson for the life of the dog.

I can recall the names of all of the true medical screw loose cases off the top of my head because there are so few. Even most of those cases were still manageable through training , but some of them were put down because what needed to happen was just not doable by a typical owner or it was a rescue dog that would have been irresponsible to adopt out, some were just too risky. 

Most biters are doing it out of some form of fear, and learned to do it to relieve some sort of pressure.

A good chunk are doing it because they're just being jerks and nobody taught them they shouldn't try to control people with their teeth.

A very very very small number are actual medical cases that would resolve with a vet visit.

Honestly if you've been bitten so many times and the dog is attacking multiple people and you can't solve the issue then putting the dog down is probably the best decision for everybody. Nobody likes saying it but you can't save them all and honestly you shouldn't try.


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## Stonevintage

Great example -any questions? Goodnight all.


----------



## Chip18

Baillif said:


> The vast majority of issues that I deal with where a dog is biting people or being aggressive are operant behavioral issues that are addressed with operant conditioning training solutions.
> 
> In layman it means they learned to be aggressive because it worked for them.
> 
> They learned to stop because we taught them that it no longer yielded a desirable result. We then taught the handler a safe way to maintain this lesson for the life of the dog.


 Thank you, I called it "show him how I expected him to behave. Worked out fine, I will say I thought my dog was pretty bad but next to this dog ... not so much. 


Baillif said:


> I can recall the names of all of the true medical screw loose cases off the top of my head because there are so few. Even most of those cases were still manageable through training , but some of them were put down because what needed to happen was just not doable by a typical owner or it was a rescue dog that would have been irresponsible to adopt out, some were just too risky.
> 
> Most biters are doing it out of some form of fear, and learned to do it to relieve some sort of pressure.
> 
> A good chunk are doing it because they're just being jerks and nobody taught them they shouldn't try to control people with their teeth.
> 
> A very very very small number are actual medical cases that would resolve with a vet visit.
> 
> Honestly if you've been bitten so many times and the dog is attacking multiple people and you can't solve the issue then putting the dog down is probably the best decision for everybody. Nobody likes saying it but you can't save them all and honestly you shouldn't try.


Yeah ... it happens "apparently" "my" guy Jeff Gellman, told us he had to put his daughters American Akita down because it had a screw lose, so yeah it happens.


----------



## LouCastle

Slamdunc said:


> My mistake. I would NOT use the old yank and crank methods with this dog.
> 
> Lou, thanks for pointing that out! It is the one time where your style of psoting was actually beneficial to me.


Glad to have helped. Glad that you cleared that up. 

Your backhand reference to my _"style of posting"_ is noted. I write as I do because it allows me to make clear just what it is that I'm referring to. It also makes it easy to answer almost all questions that I'm asked, something that is sorely lacking in some forum members. It's so bad with some, that in a past discussion I took to writing _ supplementary _ posts that were NOTHING but the questions, and the context of those questions, in case they got lost in the rest of my comments. STILL they didn't get answered. I'm trying something new for those folks. Now my questions will be * obvious,* even to those who avoid them. 

Usually I don't bother with what are obvious typos (such as your misspelling of the word posting as _"psoting"_), but sometimes, as in this case, your typo COMPLETELY changes the meaning of what's written. In this case, you now admit that it gave the wrong advice. But if I'd not commented, your original advice would stand, both for this owner and for anyone who came along with a similar issue later. Had they followed your typo they might place themselves into serious physical danger.


----------



## LouCastle

Earlier Slandunc wrote,


> I'm sorry, but I am not the most politically correct person on dog forums. I am also rather blunt and do not sugar coat things very well when it comes to aggression.
> 
> When he looked at you funny, he should have been sternly corrected verbally, and you should have readied yourself for a fight.
> 
> In essence, the funny look * absolutely * leads to biting.
> 
> ... That is the time that I would have my come to Jesus meeting with your dog. I do not alpha roll dogs and I do not hit dogs. My hands are for praising and petting. But, I would in a matter of seconds instill the firm believe in your dog that biting me would be a very bad idea. A belief that the dog would carry with him for a very long time.
> 
> ... Hold the dog up calmly, until the dog is almost gassed out. Then you lower the dog to the ground, and allow it to recover. Saying "Ninja, what happened to you? You don't want to do that again, do you?" It is very effective, but best done with a trainer or some one to guide you that has handled aggressive dogs. [Emphasis Added]


And I responded,


> Just remember that hanging a dog (how's that for being politically correct?) is a self−defense move, not a training technique. If a large, strong dog comes up the leash at me, he's going to be rendered unconscious. As soon as he passes out, he's lowered to the ground and allowed to recover. I think it's silly to have a conversation with the dog. He knows what just happened. It's important to be calm, not angry, but asking the dog "... what happened to you?" is goofy.
> 
> THAT IS NEVER SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR DISOBEYING COMMANDS. IT'S ONLY FOR SELF DEFENSE, to prevent injury to the handler. It's not done for a growl or a snarl, ONLY for a bite or an attempted bite. In my career, once or twice I had to do it a second time, because as soon as the dog woke up, he renewed his attack on me. ONCE, I had to do it a third time. It's done calmly and quietly. All you're doing is showing the dog that you're bigger and stronger than he is, something that most dogs probably already know. Once that is established, you can get back to training.





Slamdunc said:


> I'm not sure why, but you edited my original post with your response?


Of course I edited your post. I was only responding to the comments that I cited. I didn't feel that the rest was pertinent to my response. Sometimes I'm only responding to one or two comments in a long post. It's not necessary to cite entire posts to respond to those small points, and in the interest of not taking up any more space than necessary, I edit. I included the link back to your original post so that anyone who needed clarification could get it with a click. I notice that you didn't think that it was important enough to include the edited information?! 



Slamdunc said:


> Fact is that the technique I described was for handler aggression, not disobeying a command.


Wellllllllll − you also said that it should be done for "_looking at you funny."_ That is NOT an attack. 



Slamdunc said:


> Let me be very clear, * the technique I offered was for handler aggression. * It is not a correction for disobedience. You made it seem like I was advocating this for disobedience?


The problem with your statement is that you said that it should be done for "_looking at you funny."_ A _"look,"_ is not an attack, It's a warnings that an attack may be coming OR it may be that the dog is afraid and is trying to drive off a perceived threat because he is afraid of it. My statement clarified that _"IT'S ONLY FOR SELF DEFENSE."_ That means as a response to an actual bite or attempt to bite the handler, NOT for a warning that may signal fear or that an attack. 



Slamdunc said:


> Next, the funny look is * the start of the aggression. *


No, it's not, It's a precursor, a signal as to what the dog is feeling, in K−9 jargon it's a "display." Aggression MAY follow, and if the perceived threat backs off, a bite may not follow. Earlier you were much more lucid in this statement. You wrote, _"In essence, the funny look * absolutely leads to biting."* _ That's FAR from true. But here, as before, you leave the door open for people to hang their dogs for giving them _"the funny look, [for] snarling, [or for] growling,"_ saying it _"absolutely leads to biting"_ and that it's _"the start of aggression."_ When you put those statements together with your advice to hang the dog for aggression, you'll have people hanging their dogs for anything that even looks like the start of aggression. 

Again, THAT IS NEVER SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE USED FOR DISOBEYING COMMANDS. * IT'S ONLY FOR SELF DEFENSE, * to prevent injury to the handler. It's not done for a growl or a snarl, [or a _"funny look, it's "_ONLY for a bite or an attempted bite. 



Slamdunc said:


> I realize your experience with handler aggressive dogs is limited.


Fact is EVERYONE'S _"experience with handler aggressive dogs is limited"_ to what they've seen and what they've done. Your comment is obviously intended to diminish my experience with such dogs to make it appear that I've only seen a few and that I've not done much work with such dogs. In that you're wrong, as is often the case. I'd bet that I've dealt with FAR MORE such dogs than you have for the simple reason that I'm often called in just before the last resort, putting the dog down, or in the case of LE K−9's giving them to another department, another handler or taking him back to the vendor. I'm well known for my ability to train so that such confrontations just don't occur. All of my training is structured to be as confrontation−free as it's possible to make it. 



Slamdunc said:


> You have stated previously that you have never had a dog become handler aggressive with any handler that you have trained. Really?


It would probably be better if you quoted me accurately, instead of trying to twist my words to suit your end. THIS is what I wrote, _"I've worked with dozens of such dogs and in 35+ years of dog training have never gotten a handler bitten by his dog. It's easy to avoid ..."_ The difference between what I ACTUALLY wrote and what you tried to attribute to me is immense. 

Yes, _"really."_ My methods avoid the confrontations that bring these handler attacks. That does not mean that some of the dogs that I've worked with are not handler aggressive, it means that my methods don't bring it out. I just checked my records and it turns out that my previous number ("dozens") was wrong, I've personally worked with over 100 such dogs. (There were lots more, but I stopped counting at 100). At several seminars, I was called in specifically to work with such teams. Several times, as I was showing the handler how to resolve the issue, he was still bandaged from a previous attack by the dog. Had I not been successful, some of these dogs would have either been PTS or given back to the vendor. BTW I've never failed to stop this behavior because I showed the handlers how to work the dog such that the issue never again came up. 



Slamdunc said:


> I have seen it and dealt with it on more than one occasion.


WOW! _"on more than one occasion."_ I hate going here, but when you try to diminish my accomplishments and experience, I will respond in kind. 

* Does this mean that your methods have induced such behavior from a dog and that you then "dealt with it?" *.  I'd bet that's the case since you advocate hanging for a _"look"_ and _"snarling or growling."_



Slamdunc said:


> I have handlers coming to me that train with other PD's that have these issues * occasionally * and seek my help.


Me too, but with me, it's quite a bit more than _"occasionally."_ * Please tell us how you know that my experience with this is "limited?" *.  

* Please tell us, how often you've been asked to help "other PD's" that have had this experience? 

Please tell us specifically how you dealt with this issue. 

Please tell us how often you were successful at stopping these handler attacks and how many times you were unsuccessful. *.  



Slamdunc said:


> Getting back to using the technique for aggression, the "look" or giving the "handler the eye" is the first clue that you are about to be bit.


FACT is, OFTEN these attacks ARE NOT preceded by _"the look."_ 



Slamdunc said:


> Most people that have worked with dogs know this "look." If you can read a dog, you can see it and know immediately what is about to happen. When a dog gives this look and snarls, growls or bares teeth you are fortunate to have the extra time the growling took before the bite.


Often, _"the look"_" IS NOT followed by an attack. 



Slamdunc said:


> For the folks reading this thread, dogs will often get a "glazed" look in their eyes just before they bite.


Sometimes, there is no such warning. Step on the foot of some dogs and you get bitten. No _"look,"_ no _"growl,"_ no _"snarl"_ and no _"bar[ing of] teeth."_ 



Slamdunc said:


> There are * always * signs before a dog bites or attacks.


NONSENSE. I question the qualifications, the experience, the training, and the knowledge of anyone who puts out this BS. In the example I just gave, stepping on a dog's foot, there are no such _"signs."_ Saying that it happens _"always"_ is absurd. 



Slamdunc said:


> The dogs body under goes physiological changes to quickly prepare itself for the fight.


Nope, with some dogs, you step on their foot, and you're wearing the dog. 



** This post was well over the 1000 word limit. It has been trimmed down to 1002 words. This is not the first time we have had to remind you. ADMIN**


----------



## Ryankappel

wow haha


----------



## Stonevintage

LouCastle said:


> Your backhand reference to my _"style of posting"_ is noted. I write as I It also makes it easy to answer almost all questions that I'm asked, something that is sorely lacking in some forum members. It's so bad with some, that in a past discussion I took to writing _ supplementary _ posts that were NOTHING but the questions, and the context of those questions, in case they got lost in the rest of my comments. STILL they didn't get answered. I'm trying something new for those folks. Now my questions will be * obvious,* even to those who avoid them.
> 
> 
> Lou - I didn't answer your barrage of questions the other night because I chose not to. I have read a few of your previous posts and had no desire to step into the witness box to be questioned by the prosecution.
> 
> This site is for people to share their opinions and experiences. It is not a military style training environment where you are the instructor and we are the lackeys. There are several ways to accomplish a thing in this world, yours is just one way. I realize it may be difficult to allow for this and is probably frustrating for you - it comes across in your posts.
> 
> There are several who post here that I've learned a great deal from. Their communication style is quite different when they converse with others. I know you have a wealth of information to share. Your conversational style seems to turn a topic into a train wreck and that is when learning stops and the thread becomes nothing but a debate platform.
> 
> Now, you state that you are going to become even more direct with your questions.... good luck with that.


----------



## CrystalV

MarkJoe....how's your dog doing?


----------



## Jenny720

Last year when we were looking a new pup and looking at different dog breeds , one was the English springer spaniels this where I read much about rage syndrome. Between our search for our new addition to the family ,I took the kids to the pediatrician we we telling her about max a pup we put a deposit in. She showed us pictures of her German shepherd and pup. She also told us about the bad experience she had with her first German shepherd that she bought from a reputable breeder. The behavior is similar to the op's dog acting aggressive and trying to bite at them out of the blue. Behavior was spuratic and inconsistent. She took the dog to a trainer and worked with him for a while he was diagnosed with rage syndrome. After exhausting all her resources- trainers, behaviorists, veterniarian. She knew she had no other choice but to have her dog euthanized. Someone she knew offered to take the dog and use him as guard dog to some mechanic shop or other at night. He would not be around no other people. She agreed as one last chance for the dog. The dog many times try to attack the new owner after the owner try enter his own property. Thankfully no one got hurt. She took the dog back as was her only interest to help the dog. She had no choice to put the dog down. She was devastated but it could of been worse if the dog seriously injured someone. Now I'm in no way an expert and saying what is and what isn't. Just saw some similarities in the story and wanted to share. I do recommend going to a recommended trainers, behaviorists and veterniarian and hear the different of opinions if any.


----------



## Chip18

Hmmm, seems pretty clear to me he was addressing "Slamdunc??" This time at least?? I for one luv, having the few "that deal with dogs with serious.freaking issues on here" as learning from them is my thing and that's what I share. Not, many of them do open forums

They are willing to share what they know and People are free to make "adjustments" to suit the dog in front of them. As I did when David suggested to me the "leash pop on top of the with "Rocky" ... worked out fine. Wobble dog so my options for"corrections" were limited and was out of ideas?? 

Lou, did state in one of his long confrontational post in the past, that "if people don't like his post ... they don't have to read them."

Just saying.


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## G-burg

> Lou, did state in one of his long confrontational post in the past, that "if people don't like his post ... they don't have to read them."


That is true... Nor do they have to respond to his demands! There's also that wonderful "block" feature we can use!! Best tool EVER!!


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## Steve Strom

G-burg said:


> That is true... Nor do they have to respond to his demands! There's also that wonderful "block" feature we can use!! Best tool EVER!!





> This message is hidden because LouCastle is on your ignore list.


Just make sure you're logged in.


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## llombardo

Jenny720 said:


> Last year when we were looking a new pup and looking at different dog breeds , one was the English springer spaniels this where I read much about rage syndrome. Between our search for our new addition to the family ,I took the kids to the pediatrician we we telling her about max a pup we put a deposit in. She showed us pictures of her German shepherd and pup. She also told us about the bad experience she had with her first German shepherd that she bought from a reputable breeder. The behavior is similar to the op's dog acting aggressive and trying to bite at them out of the blue. Behavior was spuratic and inconsistent. She took the dog to a trainer and worked with him for a while he was diagnosed with rage syndrome. After exhausting all her resources- trainers, behaviorists, veterniarian. She knew she had no other choice but to have her dog euthanized. Someone she knew offered to take the dog and use him as guard dog to some mechanic shop or other at night. He would not be around no other people. She agreed as one last chance for the dog. The dog many times try to attack the new owner after the owner try enter his own property. Thankfully no one got hurt. She took the dog back as was her only interest to help the dog. She had no choice to put the dog down. She was devastated but it could of been worse if the dog seriously injured someone. Now I'm in no way an expert and saying what is and what isn't. Just saw some similarities in the story and wanted to share. I do recommend going to a recommended trainers, behaviorists and veterniarian and hear the different of opinions if any.


Rage Syndrome has no triggers. This dogs trigger is when someone touches him. He has not attacked in any other situation. The common factor in all attacks is the dog being touched and not even regular petting sets it off.


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## Stonevintage

Oh Chip - you crack me up!!!


----------



## Sabis mom

Lou I really hope you are able to help the OP with this dog. I have been watching this thread with interest, hoping answers would be found.

What I see a lot of is dogs that attack with 'no warning' because they were reprimanded _for_ warnings. It's something I caution people about all the time.
I had a young dog PTS for aggression, not toward me but toward everything else. I also own a now old dog who was notorious when he was younger for 'schooling' handlers. The only sign we ever got was his eyes, they would go really 'still', so I understand the funny look. Had I hung him for that I have no doubt that he would have adapted and learned not to warn us at all.


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## Stonevintage

G-burg said:


> That is true... Nor do they have to respond to his demands! There's also that wonderful "block" feature we can use!! Best tool EVER!!



I just found the block feature and added the name. Thanks!


----------



## Jenny720

llombardo said:


> Rage Syndrome has no triggers. This dogs trigger is when someone touches him. He has not attacked in any other situation. The common factor in all attacks is the dog being touched and not even regular petting sets it off.


Yes a light touch or a nudge the over the top reaction made me think of that story. Iknow in rage syndrome one thing is the dogs they lack impulse control perceptions may be off, misinterperts non threatning situations and then seems not to recollect anything. I dont know to much about it but were looking at springers and cockers and read more about it when looking at those dogs. It also could be physical. Xrays can determine what we cant see.


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## Baillif

Cases like the OP don't really lend themselves well to any kind of internet debate. They need professional in person intervention. Training with pressure is a tricky thing. There is a lot to consider. Intending to positively punish a dog for one behavior can become accidental negative reinforcement for another unintended behavior. For example I might be trying to punish my dog for barking at the neighbor and be late for the correction and catch the dog while hes already amped up and then he redirects up the leash and gets me in the arm and causes my leash pressure to stop. If the dog does this enough times he learns he can cause the leash pressure to stop by coming up the leash at me. The leash pressure becomes a cue to an attack.

You can't just throw out advice like correct your dog, hang him, helicopter him, alpha roll him, nick him on 60.

You need to be there to see precursors, you need to know the triggers, you need to be there to see the dog and read the dog. Cases like this need to be dealt with in person by a professional and not be subject to internet debate or advice. Debate them all you want for educational or theory purposes maybe but other than that if you have a true problem like this you need to find someone who can deal with it and go there. Dog training is an unregulated industry. You can easily go to 5 different trainers for an issue like this and I doubt many of them would turn you away saying they don't know how to help you with the dog even if they really were out of their depth. The tricky part will be finding someone that can handle cases like this that is nearby.


----------



## Slamdunc

loucastle said:


> earlier slandunc wrote,
> 
> and i responded,
> 
> 
> 
> of course i edited your post. I was only responding to the comments that i cited. I didn't feel that the rest was pertinent to my response. Sometimes i'm only responding to one or two comments in a long post. It's not necessary to cite entire posts to respond to those small points, and in the interest of not taking up any more space than necessary, i edit. I included the link back to your original post so that anyone who needed clarification could get it with a click. I notice that you didn't think that it was important enough to include the edited information?!
> 
> 
> 
> Wellllllllll − you also said that it should be done for "_looking at you funny."_ that is not an attack.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with your statement is that you said that it should be done for "_looking at you funny."_ a _"look,"_ is not an attack, it's a warnings that an attack may be coming or it may be that the dog is afraid and is trying to drive off a perceived threat because he is afraid of it. My statement clarified that _"it's only for self defense."_ that means as a response to an actual bite or attempt to bite the handler, not for a warning that may signal fear or that an attack.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's not, it's a precursor, a signal as to what the dog is feeling, in k−9 jargon it's a "display." aggression may follow, and if the perceived threat backs off, a bite may not follow. Earlier you were much more lucid in this statement. You wrote, _"in essence, the funny look * absolutely leads to biting."* _ that's far from true. But here, as before, you leave the door open for people to hang their dogs for giving them _"the funny look, [for] snarling, [or for] growling,"_ saying it _"absolutely leads to biting"_ and that it's _"the start of aggression."_ when you put those statements together with your advice to hang the dog for aggression, you'll have people hanging their dogs for anything that even looks like the start of aggression.
> 
> Again, that is never something that should be used for disobeying commands. * it's only for self defense, * to prevent injury to the handler. It's not done for a growl or a snarl, [or a _"funny look, it's "_only for a bite or an attempted bite.
> 
> 
> 
> Fact is everyone's _"experience with handler aggressive dogs is limited"_ to what they've seen and what they've done. Your comment is obviously intended to diminish my experience with such dogs to make it appear that i've only seen a few and that i've not done much work with such dogs. In that you're wrong, as is often the case. I'd bet that i've dealt with far more such dogs than you have for the simple reason that i'm often called in just before the last resort, putting the dog down, or in the case of le k−9's giving them to another department, another handler or taking him back to the vendor. I'm well known for my ability to train so that such confrontations just don't occur. All of my training is structured to be as confrontation−free as it's possible to make it.
> 
> 
> 
> It would probably be better if you quoted me accurately, instead of trying to twist my words to suit your end. This is what i wrote, _"i've worked with dozens of such dogs and in 35+ years of dog training have never gotten a handler bitten by his dog. It's easy to avoid ..."_ the difference between what i actually wrote and what you tried to attribute to me is immense.
> 
> Yes, _"really."_ my methods avoid the confrontations that bring these handler attacks. That does not mean that some of the dogs that i've worked with are not handler aggressive, it means that my methods don't bring it out. I just checked my records and it turns out that my previous number ("dozens") was wrong, i've personally worked with over 100 such dogs. (there were lots more, but i stopped counting at 100). At several seminars, i was called in specifically to work with such teams. Several times, as i was showing the handler how to resolve the issue, he was still bandaged from a previous attack by the dog. Had i not been successful, some of these dogs would have either been pts or given back to the vendor. Btw i've never failed to stop this behavior because i showed the handlers how to work the dog such that the issue never again came up.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! _"on more than one occasion."_ i hate going here, but when you try to diminish my accomplishments and experience, i will respond in kind.
> 
> * does this mean that your methods have induced such behavior from a dog and that you then "dealt with it?" *.  i'd bet that's the case since you advocate hanging for a _"look"_ and _"snarling or growling."_
> 
> 
> 
> me too, but with me, it's quite a bit more than _"occasionally."_ * please tell us how you know that my experience with this is "limited?" *.
> 
> * please tell us, how often you've been asked to help "other pd's" that have had this experience?
> 
> Please tell us specifically how you dealt with this issue.
> 
> Please tell us how often you were successful at stopping these handler attacks and how many times you were unsuccessful. *.
> 
> 
> 
> fact is, often these attacks are not preceded by _"the look."_
> 
> 
> 
> often, _"the look"_" is not followed by an attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes, there is no such warning. Step on the foot of some dogs and you get bitten. No _"look,"_ no _"growl,"_ no _"snarl"_ and no _"bar[ing of] teeth."_
> 
> 
> 
> nonsense. I question the qualifications, the experience, the training, and the knowledge of anyone who puts out this bs. In the example i just gave, stepping on a dog's foot, there are no such _"signs."_ saying that it happens _"always"_ is absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, with some dogs, you step on their foot, and you're wearing the dog.




wow!


----------



## DobbyDad

Baillif said:


> Cases like the OP don't really lend themselves well to any kind of internet debate. They need professional in person intervention. Training with pressure is a tricky thing. There is a lot to consider. Intending to positively punish a dog for one behavior can become accidental negative reinforcement for another unintended behavior. For example I might be trying to punish my dog for barking at the neighbor and be late for the correction and catch the dog while hes already amped up and then he redirects up the leash and gets me in the arm and causes my leash pressure to stop. If the dog does this enough times he learns he can cause the leash pressure to stop by coming up the leash at me. The leash pressure becomes a cue to an attack.
> 
> You can't just throw out advice like correct your dog, hang him, helicopter him, alpha roll him, nick him on 60.
> 
> You need to be there to see precursors, you need to know the triggers, you need to be there to see the dog and read the dog. Cases like this need to be dealt with in person by a professional and not be subject to internet debate or advice. Debate them all you want for educational or theory purposes maybe but other than that if you have a true problem like this you need to find someone who can deal with it and go there. Dog training is an unregulated industry. You can easily go to 5 different trainers for an issue like this and I doubt many of them would turn you away saying they don't know how to help you with the dog even if they really were out of their depth. The tricky part will be finding someone that can handle cases like this that is nearby.



Best post I've seen in a long time.


----------



## LuvShepherds

I'm more concerned about the OP's dog than with who is right here. This has dissolved into arguments over whose response is best. We've all offered suggestions, now it's up to the OP to make decisions. Either it's health related, something wrong with the dog's brain or learned behavior, but the conclusion I've drawn is that the OP can't handle this dog. It's not a bad thing, it means this dog isn't right for this family. I would either rehome with someone who is prepared and skilled at aggression and wants to take the dog or put it down, but it's the OP's decision to make. I get annoyed at reading 13 pages to find a good and helpful discussion has turned into a bickering match.


----------



## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> wow!


 ...


----------



## maxtmill

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm more concerned about the OP's dog than with who is right here. This has dissolved into arguments over whose response is best. We've all offered suggestions, now it's up to the OP to make decisions. Either it's health related, something wrong with the dog's brain or learned behavior, but the conclusion I've drawn is that the OP can't handle this dog. It's not a bad thing, it means this dog isn't right for this family. I would either rehome with someone who is prepared and skilled at aggression and wants to take the dog or put it down, but it's the OP's decision to make. I get annoyed at reading 13 pages to find a good and helpful discussion has turned into a bickering match.


I agree with LuvShepherds- I am a dog lover who is interested in hearing valuable info about other dog owners' issues, and good advice from the more experienced dog people on the forum. Also, I want to learn as much about the breed as I can before I get my next shepherd. I have no desire to hear people bicker, and it does not help the OP at all.


----------



## GatorBytes

Muskeg said:


> Stone- I see your point, for sure, the brain is a tricky and complicated thing and we don't know a whole lot about how it all works- but the sustained attacks the OP describes, and the heightened aggression that lasts for up to several hours- I just don't see this being a medical brain issue.
> 
> Of course, *whatever is going on with this dog is in the brain,* so who really knows, *but I doubt it is related to actual seizure activity.
> *.


https://web.facebook.com/idyllicpawsvet/posts/826667274063744:0

^^^


*VACCINOSIS & SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE...It's out there.*
I talk a lot about vaccine dangers: dog and cat vaccines are NOT harmless preventive medicine. A friend asked me for scientific evidence for vaccinosis and *rabies miasm*. I answered with the points below. But,...since it isn't recognized by most traditional veterinarians and isn't something many pet owners have ever heard of before, I thought it would be helpful to define vaccinosis.
First, WHAT VACCINOSIS ISN'T. It isn't an acute, often immediate adverse reaction to a vaccine. Adverse events, or hypersensitivities, whether mild (such as lethargy, flu-like symptoms, etc.), or severe (such as anaphylactic shock), that are clearly linked to a recent vaccination are widely acknowledged by the traditional veterinary community. Unfortunately, these reactions are considered by traditional vets to be occasional aberrations that result from a basically safe procedure.
*VACCINOSIS, on the other hand*, is a problem only holistic veterinarians seem willing to acknowledge. It is a reaction of a pet's body to vaccines that have been injected without the pet having experienced a notable adverse event or hypersensitivity. *These are chronic reactions to not only the altered virus contained in the vaccine, but also to the chemicals, adjuvants, and other components of tissue culture cell lines -- as well as possible genetic changes -- that can be induced by vaccines.* 
In answer to the question....Well, we KNOW these things & the scientific evidence is available in PubMed and elsewhere:
• Modified Live Virus (MLV) vaccines contain viruses and* chemicals* that trigger inflammation. 
• These agents injure mitochondria. 
• *Mitochondrial injury can lead to disruption and imbalance in cellular regulation resulting in chronic inflammation, cell death, and chronic degenerative states. *
• Such injuries have wide effects leading to changes/responses in innate, humeral and cell mediated immunity. 
• MLV vaccines are linked with atopic development (itchy skin) as a result of such imbalances. 
• In allergy research they can develop predictable allergy for study by repeated administration of DHPP vaccine while exposing research dogs to a specific pollen (poor research dogs).
• Skin, gastrointestinal, and vascular issues are known adverse effects which *we suspect are related to genetic and epigenetic variances between individuals. *
• *Rabies vaccine is widely known to cause vasculitis and encephalitis.* These can cause chronic damage and resultant changes associated with chronic disease forms we call vaccinosis. 
Since the introduction of dog and cat vaccines, the traditional view of their use has been that they are safe and can be given as frequently as once or twice a year. This approach, tragically, has caused a tremendous amount of suffering for millions of pets. As the truth about the dangers of vaccines slowly emerges, even traditional veterinary organizations and practitioners are acknowledging that vaccines are not the benign, "better safe than sorry" veterinary tools they were thought to be.


----------



## GatorBytes

Aluminum vaccine adjuvants: are they safe? - PubMed - NCBI

*Abstract*

Aluminum is an experimentally demonstrated neurotoxin and the most commonly used vaccine adjuvant. Despite almost 90 years of widespread use of aluminum adjuvants, medical science's understanding about their mechanisms of action is still remarkably poor. There is also a concerning scarcity of data on toxicology and pharmacokinetics of these compounds. In spite of this, the notion that aluminum in vaccines is safe appears to be widely accepted. Experimental research, however, *clearly shows that aluminum adjuvants have a potential to induce serious immunological disorders in humans.* *In particular, aluminum in adjuvant form carries a risk for autoimmunity, long-term brain inflammation and associated neurological complications and may thus have profound and widespread adverse health consequences*. In our opinion, the possibility that vaccine benefits may have been overrated and the risk of potential adverse effects underestimated, has not been rigorously evaluated in the medical and scientific community. We hope that the present paper will provide a framework for a much needed and long overdue assessment of this highly contentious medical issue.


----------



## annabirdie

MarkJoel60 said:


> I haven't posted on this forum for quite awhile because some of the regulars on here seem more interested in proving how smart they are than actually helping... But I figure desperate times call for desperate measures, so here goes:
> 
> MarkJoel probably should have just stopped right there. What he said could not be more true. Any time a topic with more than one possible answer comes up these threads deteriorate into one-upmanship, belittling other people, and defensive rants. As a new German Shepherd owner I was super happy to find this forum and look to it for advice often...but so many of these threads are the odd helpful reply mixed with so much negativity. Guys, this person is grieving for the dog they had and desperately needs help. Point him in the right direction, you have the knowledge, and then leave it at that.


----------



## Slamdunc

A few people have offered some very good advice. I tried to offer some advice from my own experience of working, owning and handling more than a few aggressive dogs over the years. I'm not interested in arguing here. I'm here to discuss dogs and training. I'm more than happy to help folks as much as I can. Internet discussions need to be taken at face value, internet arguments are impossible to win. 

Obviously, the OP has to rule out any medical issues. That is the first step. Next, the OP does need to find a trainer that can work with is family. I offered what I know will work with a dog like this. But, you need to be a committed, strong handler to succeed with this type of dog. Bailif made some very good posts and has hit the nail on the head regarding this situation. 

For those disappointed in how this thread went, well that happens on forums. It is nice when a thread goes and good information is presented and discussed. Unfortunately, it doesn't always go that way. For those that had hoped to gleam some good information or have questions, start a new thread or contribute to this one. Maybe, you can get the train back on the track. 

Best of luck to the OP.


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