# Puppy body condition score



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Hi all,

My head is in a pretzel because I keep getting conflicting information about how heavy my puppy should be.

She's not quite 9 months old, and just a smidge shy of 60 lbs.

She's basically been lean the whole time I've had her (not when I first got her, she had puppy fat, but maybe from 4 months on I've kept her lean). Her breeder said it was better for her joints to be lean, that way less weight on the joints and also slower growth. 

I've asked my regular vet when I saw her last month what she thought about her weight. She told me for her age and breed she was perfect. I asked the stud dog's owner on the weekend, she said she looked perfect (her dog is IPO2, so she's used to seeing fit dogs etc). 

I take my puppy to daycare, they keep telling me she's too thin. The daycare is at a different vet clinic. My puppy is losing a bit of hair around one eye, so I just popped her in to the clinic at the daycare to check it out. The vet told me my dog is basically emaciated, a body condition of 2! How can so many people tell me she looks ok, including my vet, then another vet tells me she's practically on death's door? She was almost angry with me!

I took some photos, they aren't the best, as my dog won't stand in one position, she keeps trying to come over, or will only stay in a down or sit. lol

If she's just standing and relaxed, you can just BARELY make out ribs. If she's sitting you basically can't see them. If she's stretched out, bent or running, they are pretty visible. She is otherwise happy and healthy, full of beans.

Should I up her food? I just want her to be healthy. This isn't what I want her to look like as an adult, but while she's growing, I thought being fairly lean was better for her? I have horses, and with growing big bodied horse (I have warmbloods) we are told to just be able to see ribs, I used the same theory for my puppy?

She gets 3 to 3-1/2 cups of Acana Pacifica a day, split into two feedings.

I feel like a criminal!  Can you guys give me your opinions? 

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/Conner2007/B001_zpsdcddcbb7.jpg

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/Conner2007/B003_zps690f9d1b.jpg

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/Conner2007/B004_zps98de7666.jpg

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/Conner2007/B010_zps7422b194.jpg


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

She looks fine. I probably wouldn't mind if she put on a couple more pounds, but I wouldn't worry about her current weight either. My GSD has HD so he must stay lean. He is fine, just needs to build more muscle and fill out some, but you should hear some of the comments I get from well-meaning people.  Sadly most folks today seem to think a healthy dog is a fat dog because that's all they see anymore. When they do see a dog that is in good body condition they think it's too thin.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I was afraid she was going to seize my dog, she was angry!

It's not the body condition I want for her as an adult, but I thought for a growing pup this was better! :/

If she takes a deep breath, her ribs are very visible, and since she's running around and jumping a lot that means they are visible a lot, but resting they aren't too bad, I don't think.

Jeeze, she made me feel so bad!


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I think she looks fine... Someone said here once that most vets are used to seeing fat dogs so when they see a lean GSD they think they are too thin.

Don't let the vet make you feel bad, not all vets are equal and not all vets are always correct and know everything... Like for example I had a vet try to get me to stop feeding my dogs Honest kitchen and put them on Science diet. 

For her eye, maybe it's an allergy? What type of Acana is she on, maybe switching to a different protein source would help(like if she's eating chicken or beef switch to a fish formula). And sorry if you already had that diagnosed, just giving my thoughts!


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## Shep's_Shepherd (Jan 18, 2012)

She looks fine, but it's difficult to determine from just photos. Maybe she just looks thin because of her great color. My wife tells me that black is slimming!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

She thinks the eye is some sort of mange. Starts with a D...

Sounds awful, but basically all dogs have it, but with young dogs or dogs who are stressed in some way (she's young and just had giardia) their immune system can't supress it.

She said it should clear up on it's own, but to keep an eye on it.

She's isn't itchy at all and it's just the one eye. I've had the worst luck with her! LOL


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Maybe I'll up her food a wee bit. 

Jeeze, I didn't think it was that bad. LOL


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

She looks perfect to me in those pictures. To call her emaciated is a far stretch and I can send the vet some pictures of real emaciated dogs for education. 

You should be able to easily feel ribs without pressing too hard but petting your dog shouldn't feel like rubbing a washboard either. She may be having a growth spurt so just keep an eye on her and adjust her food accordingly.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

She's definitely going through a growth spurt, she gained 6 lbs in the last month and lord knows it wasn't fat. LOL


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

blackshep said:


> She thinks the eye is some sort of mange. Starts with a D...


Demodex, that would make sense.

If so you don't want to stress her, so her immune system can take care of the mange itself. I would not change her food or make any major changes in her life right now. I think she looks healthy, on the thin side, but a lot of puppies that age grow in weird, gangly stages. I would not try to pack pounds on. Maybe play around with increasing 1/4-1/2 cup a day. Her coat looks really nice and that's also an indicator of health.


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## AJT (Jun 20, 2012)

i think she looks great! shiny coat!! considering the fact that she will continue to grow a little bit more I would adjust her feed accordingly to activity.

everyone said my pup looked skinny with the exception of people who have had shepherds. i just kept telling people she hit a growth spurt.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

On a scale of 1-5 I'd say 2-3 as well but she's a far cry from emaciation. 1 is emaciated.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I think she could use a couple pounds more on her, especially if you say she's going through a growth spurt but otherwise, I certainly wouldnt say she's emaciated. She's a pup and should be lean so as not to stress growing joints. Stick with your regular vet.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok, thanks guys.

I'm going to up her food a wee bit, maybe it's time to do that anyway, now that she's a bit bigger.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Don't feel bad. She looks fine to me in the pictures too. My girl is a whopping 66 pounds at 16 months, so I know what its like for people to say she is skinny Those people are usually the people that don't matter to me...my vet says she looks good, trainer says she looks good, and I love her, so that is what matters


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Our dogs are overall that trim that they have little body fat. The problem is, when it gets cold, what body fat they had would melt off quickly leaving an underweight appearing dog. Although they are indoor dogs, we use wood stove heat and at times the fire goes out when we've been to town or overnight so it gets a bit chilly in here!

With puppies it's even harder, because they'll get a bit of body fat, and grow and lose the fat pad over their ribs quickly. 
I'd like to see a hair less rib - it's good to see the last rib but when you can see all the ribs (the pic above) then puppy's a bit on the thin side.
However - you have to look at the overall picture - if she's romping, happy, playing, she's probably just fine.
That vet had no business getting all up in your business about her, since obviously the dog looks and acts happy. And yes, trim is good for the skeleton when they are puppies. 

Just up her rations 1/2 c. per meal and she ought to be fine very soon.

Pardon the article, but here's the body scale to which the vet is referring.

Obese people equal obese pets- Sonoma Pets

We have an emaciated Springer currently (cruelty case seizure) and you can see every bone on his skeleton plus his skull. 
That's emaciation! A 1 is when they've also lost muscle along with the subcutaneous fat, the body has used up it's fat stores and has now started burning up the muscle to stay alive


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

msvette2u, that's sad about the rescue 

Thanks for the link! The only problem with the body condition score is it's for adult dogs, not growing LB puppies. 

I've sent her to daycare packing a lunch, so hopefully that helps. It just seems like it all goes into growth and no weight gain! She'll now be getting about 4-1/2 cups of food a day. Holy smokes.

The vet was also asking me about a scrape on her back leg and one tiny one on her head (about the size of a pen tip!) I felt like she was about to call the humane society! She got both those cuts at their daycare, which I told her, but I felt like the worst mom in the world! 

Anyway, hopefully her lunches will help her gain a bit.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It's really hard to judge from pictures - I have pictures of the same dog, on the same day, and her body condition looks totally different. 

In the pic of your dog's rear end, I don't like how the hips are sticking out, but it could just be the picture. Without feeling the dog, it's hard to give a definite answer.

And 4 1/2 cups isn't that much...my active girls eat 6+ cups a day...when Kessy was growing she ate 8-10 cups for a while! I try not to think about number of cups - just about if they need more or less food based on how they feel...LOL


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

But how do you feel them that much without risking bloat? She gets three meals a day. I can't imagine how you'd safely get 10 cups of food into a puppy! 

And it's hard because we do a lot of training and they want you to keep them a bit hungry on those days. I try to make up for it in her later in the day feedings on those days.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I would not feed 3 x per day. At her age, 2xa day is just fine. 
2 cups, twice a day makes 4 cups...maybe round the cups up a tad so slightly "heaping" cups?


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm not saying to feed your pup 10 cups a day, just that 4 cups isn't that much food.

Kira and Kessy still both eat about 5-6 cups a day (if they are eating dry food), usually in one sitting. I am not paranoid about bloat - I don't exercise them before or after eating, but other than that I don't baby them. If they're going to bloat, they'll bloat regardless of how careful I am.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

phgsd said:


> I'm not saying to feed your pup 10 cups a day, just that 4 cups isn't that much food.


Depends on the food. My adult dogs get 2-3 cups a day which is the recommended amount for their food. They are pretty active but not extremely active and aside from the youngest (who has digestive issues) they are a healthy weight.

My least active is 80lbs and gets 2 cups per day which is enought for her. The other two (55 and 68lbs) get closer to 3 as they are more active.

My point is worry less about how many cups you "should" be feeding and focus on how many cups your dog needs.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Right - I'm just saying, if the dog needs more food, give her some more


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I would not feed 3 x per day. At her age, 2xa day is just fine.
> 2 cups, twice a day makes 4 cups...maybe round the cups up a tad so slightly "heaping" cups?


Ok, I can try that. She's getting about 4-1/2 cups now (I just upped it some).

It just looks like a lot of food for one meal (split into 2 feedings)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Our boy at just over a year is eating 2. 5 cups per meal for a total of 5 cups per day and has gained. He looked similar to your girl, every rib could be seen. While not UNenergetic even then, I like that he's gained enough to not look all ribby


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Well, she's got giardia. 

Either again, or didn't fully clear it, even though the fecal test came back negative last time. Maybe just had low numbers so they missed it, but then came back?

That explains a lot actually. How do I get rid of it?! I have cleaned all her bedding, I mop the floor with Lysol cleaner almost daily. I gave her a bath even, washed her toys and bowls. ARGH!

This time I'm using Panacur, I used Metro last time and it really upset her tummy. I think my vet doesn't believe me on that point either.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Metro can mess up their stomachs, yes, be sure to give with food. 
I know it's hard but if you can use it, it may help in this case. Panacur is said to help and quite honestly, we've given both at once for difficult cases.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Maybe I should try both? 

Ugh, she had the worst diarrhea on it. He said he's NEVER heard of Metro causing stomach upset, I told him it's a side effect, look it up. LOL I'm fed up with this clinic, never again after this!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well Metro is an antibiotic specific to stomach problems. Curious what were her symptoms? Did you get the metro from the vet, and the Panacur??


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I haven't picked her & meds up yet. 

Last time I just got the Metro.

What were her symptoms on the Metro? Really bad diarrhea. As in, the giardia was better than the cure  

They are just giving me Panacur this time and we'll recheck and discuss trying Metro again, if it doesn't clear.

I don't get why they use an antibiotic for giardia, isn't it a parasite?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Uhg I'm sorry! My golden poodle who was a rescue came home with giardia and gave it to my other dogs before we knew he had it... WHAT a nightmare, took many attempts to get rid of it - eventually we did dose with both. I feel for you and good luck and I hope she recovers soon!

On second viewing I do now think she looks a little bit too ribby but much better then being overweight, she could probably stand to gain a little... Probably the giardia wasn't helping any either!


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

blackshep said:


> Well, she's got giardia.
> 
> Either again, or didn't fully clear it, even though the fecal test came back negative last time. Maybe just had low numbers so they missed it, but then came back?
> 
> ...


In case you don't know, giardia is often picked up from stagnant water, so your dog is probably picking it up outside if one course of antibiotics is actually clearing the infection. My last dog had multiple bouts of giardia - he kept picking it up by drinking from rain puddles. Every time I slipped and he managed to drink from one, he'd get it again.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

blackshep said:


> I haven't picked her & meds up yet.
> 
> Last time I just got the Metro.
> 
> ...


Metronidazole, being a "zole" family drug, is used for _protozoan infections_, and has excellent properties in the stomach. Panacur is "fenbendazole", another "zole" class drug.

I'm guessing the giardia was causing the diarrhea more than the metronidazole, but it could have exacerbated the diarrhea a bit.
We give metro routinely here in rescue for "non specific" diarrhea, that is, no protozoan like giardia or coccidia or parvo, just a stomach bug kind of thing.

In fact my brother is taking metro right now along with cipro for some stomach illness he has.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Usually metro/flagyl helps with diarrhea, and like msvette I've used it on my dogs when they have diarrhea for more than 24 hours and it has always helped, but I've heard several times that Panacur is better for treating giardia so I'd start with that.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I looked up the side effects of Metro and apparently a rare side effect is bad diarrhea, I think she had that. Two days after she was done it, her poops were totally normal.

She doesn't really drink from puddles, I always have her on leash, so I can control that. Plus is about -25 degrees celcius today, so puddles are VERY frozen, including the cold water piping in my bathroom this morning  I think it's likely she's getting it from her daycare. I'm not blaming them, it's just not a sterile environment and she's exposed to a lot of dogs. 

Man, this giardia is a beyatch! I hate it so much! 

It totally explains why she's not been gaining weight. Ugh. Poor dog! And poor me, because medicating her is no picnic! Ha ha 

WAH!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

OH yeah daycare would explain it, and dog parks. 
Pancur is either powder (?) or paste(?). Or a liquid. Mix it in her food?
I like to do that with dogs on a medication for a short time. I finally broke down and got "pill pockets" for my Doxie who's now on heart meds for life. However I rip the pill pockets apart to tiny shreds to make the pill pockets last longer! LOL


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Is it possible some probiotics might help while she's on it? When I'm on antibiotics, it reeks havoc on my digestive tract but probiotics seem to help... Maybe some yogurt in her food or get some probiotics from the vet?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

She's not on Metro this time, so I'll see how she handles the panacur. The yougurt is a good idea


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Well some good news, she likes the taste of the panacur liquid, so it's not nearly as bad to give her and the Metro tablets  Ha ha


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

The last study I ready said fenbendazole is about 90% effective in treating giardia whereas metronidazole is about 67%. 
It is a crummy thing to deal with.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

It is, thanks for that info, I really hope she can beat it once and for all. So yucky, and here I go again, with all the washing, disinfecting...

Poor little girl. You'd never know it though, she's as spunky as ever.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Glad she's doing so well


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## SergioCanello (Dec 31, 2012)

Your dog looks like she is in very good shape to me, too! I also firmly believe that puppies should be allowed to grow gradually and harmoniously to avoid overloading the joints with unnecessary pounds during the growth period. A fish formula (that contains with fish oil ) IMHO is the best choice to provide the right amount and quality of amino acids and polyunsaturated fatty acids: Omega 3 (a natural anti-inflammatory).


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Sergio, she's on Acana Pacifica.

I thought she looked good too! She was a wee bit lean, but also on a growth spurt. I can't see her ribs if I just stand her normally, it's only if she's bending/stretching.

Anyway, I'm not too worried. I'll try to maybe put another pound or so on her, and I think that will happen on it's own once the giardia is taken care of. 

I think that vet was pretty ridiculous. When I told her I was keeping her lean to help avoid hip dysplasia, she asked if her parents had good hips. I said yes, and she said that I didn't need to worry about it! Seriously?! I think genetics has about 50% to do with it, the rest is diet/weight and lifestyle.

I get that people like roly poly puppies and she was one when I got her, but she's out of that really baby stage, and more of an adolescent.

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I love my little pup and I'm really sensitive about things like that. 

she got a bath last night to clean off any giardia and looks extra beauuuuuuuuutiful today  Extra soft and fluffy


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You know, having a short tight coat, and especially in solid black, probably makes her look thinner because she's sleek and shiny, and that could be what the vet was responding to. Halo has a very thick plush coat, so she usually looks chubbier than she really is. She's a scrawny thing when she's dripping wet, It surprises me how little dog there actually is under all that fur! :laugh: I'm always running my hand down her side to see if I need to cut her food back, but I can always easily feel her ribs. 

I think your pup looks fine too. A pound or two more wouldn't hurt her, but she's definitely not emaciated.


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