# Czech/DDR lines



## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Britny Irit Bohemia 
Dyson Benax
now own a puppy from this breeding, knowing nothing about Czech/DDR lines.Not so smart? But I love this boy so far..6 months old. Have been owned by West German working lines for over 20 years. Does anyone have any info on what type of temperament these dogs are known for? And I have found what most of the Czech/DDR titles are, but especially on Britny's mom's I can't find out what they are. Thanks so much..


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

These older threads discuss the temperament in Czech/DDR gsds:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...7764-temperament-difference-wg-czech-ddr.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/100503-czech-ddr-lines.html


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I've been on the go and having issues with pdb on mobile. What I can see of moms pedigree I like. Javir talka marda, paska, Norman eqidius, and irbi vikar - all good dogs and should be able to find video on most. How that balances with the sire line idk but I'd be happy to own that bitch. Later on hopefully I can get dads pedigree to work. Looks good so far. Only title I see on mom is svv1 - slovak equivalent of ipo/sch1


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I tried posting a link to your pups pedigree but it didn't work. 
Nice pedigree.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree shows this breeding result to be more west german working/sport lines than Czech or DDR.
There is also a line to west german show lines .


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

dogbyte said:


> Britny Irit Bohemia
> Dyson Benax
> now own a puppy from this breeding, knowing nothing about Czech/DDR lines.Not so smart? But I love this boy so far..6 months old. Have been owned by West German working lines for over 20 years. Does anyone have any info on what type of temperament these dogs are known for? And I have found what most of the Czech/DDR titles are, but especially on Britny's mom's I can't find out what they are. Thanks so much..


Shouldn't be much different from the WGWLs that you have owned for over 20 years. The puppy is basically a WGWL puppy, with a lot of Fero descending forward from different sources and you can see how different breeders have tried different balancing acts specifically adding WGWL lines known for seriousness and balance at certain points. I doubt the <1/4 Czech he has will make him so much different except to add a touch more seriousness. Have you noticed any differences temperament wise from your other WGWL pups?


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

dogbyte said:


> Britny Irit Bohemia
> Dyson Benax
> ..


Did you see the 2009 WUSV vid of your puppy's grand sire Hoky Va-Pe? The stoopid 2nd helper stepped on him after the long bite (ouch); and Hoky retaliated by refusing to out on him on the re-attack. So a few words of advice, do not step on your puppy's toes. :smile2:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are WGWL that are very sporty, then there are some primarily WGWL that are genetically capable of high sport and very serious work like LE. This pedigree,imo , falls in the latter category as opposed as the former!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lots of WGWL - lots of Fero - so many "Czech" dogs come through N litter Equidus.....Aly is sire...a few serious dogs as Cliff remarks....but the pedigree is exactly the same mix of dogs that seems to be the requisite for so many breedings now....I have a female with Paska close ~ genetic grips can be spotty in litters with him even 3-5 generations back - in each litter I had there were 1 or 2 pups with iffy grips and some with super grips from sire side, biddability and clearness can be compromised with him as well. 

Should do well with good training for sport!


Lee


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I have my first Czech dog, also 6 months old. His dad is incredible. I mean seriously impressive. My guy, Valor, was in a puppy raising home for 5 months before I got him. He definitely has drive but shuts it off easily ( I am aware his temperament is still evolving and training will dictate a lot), and he is extremely handler focused. Extremely. He is not as OMG drivey as other progeny of Clif (sire), but has exact medium drive I wanted. With 3 kids under 11, 2 disabled, a very high drive dog would not have been a great fit here. I did get an experienced and well regarded trainer in who specializes in these lines, and who has worked with his sire. I can tell he has it in him to go full auto working dog. It's a harness the personality and use it for the power of good mission lol 

His Pedigree is linked in my siggy below. And yes I am very happy with him and proud of him


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

There was something I remember seeing a while back in a different thread where someone said they really liked the combo of troll and fero thru yoschy. I can't remember why. I believe that's on the sire side of this pair and paska several gens back on the dam. Hoky seems to be a well regarded dog from what I could find on him and the maineiche kennel as a whole seems to be well regarded too. Seems like the pairing should produce a good amount of aggression, high prey drive, and good nerves. The dogs I recognized on the dam side I mentioned before Norman being one of them. For some reason I want to think there was some possible handler aggression coming thru yoschy but I could very well be mistaken on that. Aside from iffy grips from paska do you guys see any other potential issues?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Yoschy was an excellent producer, however some combinations brought out some drive leaking which could lead to vocalizing a lot. Strong nerves and high drives. His sons Aaron and Amigo were said to produce some handler aggression, as well as hard dogs. 

I had a Yoschy granddaughter out of Maineiche Kennels, a great working dog. I remember a conversation with Heinz Gerdes back in 2000 or so. Heinz's comment was "Yoschy is excellent, but not too much Yoschy in a pedigree." I've also spoken to Koos Hassing several times and he also really liked Yoschy and had him at his kennel many times for breeding.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

everyone wants different things and dislikes different things.....Yes - Yoshey can bring handler aggression, not as severe as Crok, not as nuts as Crok....but yes....

what you all need to remember is that priorities and management of dogs is different in many European kennels!!! Puppies are whelped in kennels - often not even at the owner's home, they have kennels at club grounds....competition dogs live in kennels 24/7, not on the couch.....hectic kennel behavior is often ignored....priorities are far far different, tolerances for behavior different...if a dog put me in the hospital intentionally - he'd have a shot of pink juice or a bullet in his head!!! I would not sit and brag about it!!! Yet a well known Yoshey son did just that to his owner several times! Very few want their IPO dogs to lie on the love seat, sleep on their bed and accompany them to their office!!! Many of us, myself included, do just that....my Komet goes to work with me, sleeps at the foot of my bed and usually one of the females does as well. 

Maineiche - before they went the way of the rest of WG breeders - had some great dogs - Xento, Ex, Kid....they were used to shore up and stabilize a few other popular males in pedigrees....When Xito was brought to the US, his value was that his owner had had a Fero son, and Xito was to be used on those daughters to counter and balance them. Aly Vordersteinwald is a product of a Maineiche sired female (Kid) and Troll....a great cross that has gone on to be prolific in the breed.

BTW - I bred to a Yoshey son....I handled him in obedience a few times....his owner NEVER challenged him or did much in the way of corrections.....I got dwarfs from him.....

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've seen some Javir offspring - very nice dogs! Well balanced, eager to please, intelligent, naturally strong. Endless energy. Can do well as house dogs when their exercise and work needs are being met. 

Not sure how much of Javir's influence will be seen in progeny a few generations down. My (uneducated) guess is that the parent's temperament will be a stronger influence than that of one dog a couple of generations removed.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Thank all of you so much for the info. Gunny was brought to our house with possibly getting me back into the sport of IPO after a 10+ year absence due to horrible dog training techniques used at the local clubs and the politics. Gunny is different than my late male that died jan of this year. He was a grand son of Crok. His mothers mainly herding lines tempered him as his dad had big handler aggression issues. He worked with a legit cop dog trainer that loved him. Confident arrogant and safe all in one. Gunny is pretty laid back In the house, turns on nice prey when I play with him with the flirt pole. Teething right now but has always seemed to have a calm deep bite on the tug. Have a friend that keeps telling me to handle this Him carefully because of his lines, that was mainly why I asked for information. So far he is the most loving kissing male pup I have had. I haven't taken him to the new club I visited that I have a friend working her young mal with. Want to really watch the helper with pups first. He is so different than my last puppy, which is my now 4 1/2 yr old Dutch that is a BYB Craigslist rescue. She is si quick to learn and react..and likes only 3 or 4 people in the world. Gunny can be more stubborn and sometimes almost deviant, but try to always use my brai over brawn ( don't have much of it anyway at 63 with fibro). Thanks again. Anxious to see the repeat litter being bred now and have watched his full sister growing up on line to do SAR.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Castlemaid said:


> I've seen some Javir offspring - very nice dogs! Well balanced, eager to please, intelligent, naturally strong. Endless energy. Can do well as house dogs when their exercise and work needs are being met.
> 
> Not sure how much of Javir's influence will be seen in progeny a few generations down. My (uneducated) guess is that the parent's temperament will be a stronger influence than that of one dog a couple of generations removed.


Javir himself was a house dog as were the sons they owned and his mother. All of my Javir kids and great grand kid are super house dogs with great off switches. 

That far back Javir probably doesn't have a huge amount of influence. I just did a 3-4 linebreeding on the J litter (Jilnannah and Javir) so it will be interesting to see how much influence they have on the litter.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> I've seen some Javir offspring - very nice dogs! Well balanced, eager to please, intelligent, naturally strong. Endless energy. Can do well as house dogs when their exercise and work needs are being met.
> 
> Not sure how much of Javir's influence will be seen in progeny a few generations down. My (uneducated) guess is that the parent's temperament will be a stronger influence than that of one dog a couple of generations removed.


Absolutely disagree here......seen multiple dogs from 3 of the J litter (1st gen, 2nd gen)and some are ok and some are complete and total nervebags.....sources from Europe say the same.....some OK, but not something to seek out


Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I guess I was lucky and spent time only with the many good ones while in Germany.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, just like with Asko producing a mixed bag of good dogs and nervy dogs, the Sire is only half of the equation. 

I see Javir in a ton of working line pedigrees - when he won the WUSV, Everybody and their (backyard bred) dog wanted to breed to him.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> Well, just like with Asko producing a mixed bag of good dogs and nervy dogs, the Sire is only half of the equation.
> 
> I see Javir in a ton of working line pedigrees - when he won the WUSV, Everybody and their (backyard bred) dog wanted to breed to him.



yep - saw him and he was impressive.....and that is what happens - too many unthought out breedings with females who should not be bred to him and his genetics do not complement them or he cannot overcome their genetics and replace him with his own....

Lee


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> Strong nerves and high drives. His sons Aaron and Amigo were said to produce some handler aggression, as well as hard dogs.
> 
> I had a Yoschy granddaughter out of Maineiche Kennels, a great working dog. I remember a conversation with Heinz Gerdes back in 2000 or so. Heinz's comment was "Yoschy is excellent, but not too much Yoschy in a pedigree." I've also spoken to Koos Hassing several times and he also really liked Yoschy and had him at his kennel many times for breeding.


I had an Aron grandson who was as you described it. A fun dog, did well at all phases yet was extremely social. I think his social nature was because he thought all humans were below him and were put on this earth to give him a ball, pun intended. Could be serious but very high thresholds. Ideal for my needs.

What I heard about Yoschy was that his handler, who raised him from a pup, was too lenient with him, at least by German standards. Thus the "Yoschy doesn't out" theme.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

Gooseman, thanks for the info on the lines..I was wondering what titles Irbi Vikar has. I knew the IPO BH Schh3 titles are. The Spr1 and FH1 are tracking titles. Don't know what the Fpr2 and Zps1 are. Hope this tracking is partly genetic. Because whether the pup is working for titles or not, we track.. I love tracking. Was and is my favorite part of the IPO/SCHH titles. 
*SCHH3, IPO3, ZVV1. Fpr2, FH1, ZPS1, Spr1, BH*


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

dogbyte said:


> Gooseman, thanks for the info on the lines..I was wondering what titles Irbi Vikar has. I knew the IPO BH Schh3 titles are. The Spr1 and FH1 are tracking titles. Don't know what the Fpr2 and Zps1 are. Hope this tracking is partly genetic. Because whether the pup is working for titles or not, we track.. I love tracking. Was and is my favorite part of the IPO/SCHH titles.
> *SCHH3, IPO3, ZVV1. Fpr2, FH1, ZPS1, Spr1, BH*


Zps1 is tracking and obedience. Fpr2 is an advanced tracking similar to FH.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> everyone wants different things and dislikes different things.....Yes - Yoshey can bring handler aggression, not as severe as Crok, not as nuts as Crok....but yes....
> 
> what you all need to remember is that priorities and management of dogs is different in many European kennels!!! Puppies are whelped in kennels - often not even at the owner's home, they have kennels at club grounds....competition dogs live in kennels 24/7, not on the couch.....hectic kennel behavior is often ignored....priorities are far far different, tolerances for behavior different...if a dog put me in the hospital intentionally - he'd have a shot of pink juice or a bullet in his head!!! I would not sit and brag about it!!! Yet a well known Yoshey son did just that to his owner several times! Very few want their IPO dogs to lie on the love seat, sleep on their bed and accompany them to their office!!! Many of us, myself included, do just that....my Komet goes to work with me, sleeps at the foot of my bed and usually one of the females does as well.
> 
> ...


I actually ended up finding the thread I was looking for and it's on pdb. Good read if you can separate the junk and crap talk from the good parts. Funny enough there was a lot of posts of people are there looking for and desiring handler aggression. No telling why. But the other thing was exactly what you said "I got dwarfs from him" apparently he is known to produce small dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

thegooseman90 said:


> I actually ended up finding the thread I was looking for and it's on pdb. Good read if you can separate the junk and crap talk from the good parts. Funny enough there was a lot of posts of people are there looking for and desiring handler aggression. No telling why. But the other thing was exactly what you said "I got dwarfs from him" apparently he is known to produce small dogs.


LOL LOL not "small" dogs.....female about 8 pounds and lived 4-5 years.....the male about 17 pounds and not sure how long he lived....I mean actual dwarves.


Lee


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> LOL LOL not "small" dogs.....female about 8 pounds and lived 4-5 years.....the male about 17 pounds and not sure how long he lived....I mean actual dwarves.
> 
> 
> Lee


I can't find an emoji that looks shocked enough! I was thinking 40 lbs or something. haha thankfully they didn't end up in the wrong hands or we may have some line of mini gsd running around.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Not possible, gooseman. Pituitary dwarves usually have a very short lifespan, and are not at all cute due to hair loss. Since the pituitary gland also produces hormones that are essential in reproduction (prolactin, follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone), females with this conditon are unable to ovulate.

I do know of one that lived to be 15, though. It was larger and had a better coat than most, so it must have had some pituitary hormones being produced.

He is lying next to a normal sized GSD.

More typically, pituitary dwarves look like the dog on the front page of this website:

http://gsdpituitarydwarfism.weebly.com/gsd-pituitary-dwarfism.html


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

thegooseman90 said:


> I actually ended up finding the thread I was looking for and it's on pdb. Good read if you can separate the junk and crap talk from the good parts. Funny enough there was a lot of posts of people are there looking for and desiring handler aggression. No telling why. But the other thing was exactly what you said "I got dwarfs from him" apparently he is known to produce small dogs.


* Funny enough there was a lot of posts of people are there looking for and desiring handler aggression. No telling why*

Because, those folks don't have a clue. 

There is absolutely no good or valid reason to want a handler aggressive dog, unless it is to stroke ones ego. The pdb is full of plenty of "junk and crap" talk as you point out. No experienced or knowledgeable handler wants or desires a handler aggressive dog. You may find a good handler that will take a project in or take a dog to work, but given the option of a similar dog with no handler aggression and it's an easy choice. I've owned and handled some HA dogs and it was not by choice but by circumstance. 

I could see a dog with some excellent traits, structure, hardness that a breeder might value and weigh the handler aggression against the other more desirable traits. 

Handler aggressive dogs do not run faster, bite harder, hit harder, track better, search better than a good non handler aggressive dog. Except for Boru, he does hit harder and fight harder than most dogs. Yet, even his handler aggression with me is virtually zero now. 

Regarding Yoschy, he was a smaller dog that did produce small dogs. I was not aware of the dwarfs.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> * Funny enough there was a lot of posts of people are there looking for and desiring handler aggression. No telling why*
> 
> Because, those folks don't have a clue.
> 
> ...


That's how I kinda see it too. For a great dog, or one I already own, I'd overlook some issues - HA being one of them but I wouldn't look for it and I wouldn't choose it over an equal dog without HA. If you remember that thread they didn't mean a dog who will defend itself if you got carried away either, they wanted one that would show active aggression without provocation. There was some good parts to it but in 20+ it's hard to weed thru.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Why would somebody opt to own a GSD if they don't want HA? Appropriate HA is breed standard.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why would somebody opt to own a GSD if they don't want HA? Appropriate HA is breed standard.


Handler aggression. Sorry for the confusion


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Shepdad said:


> Did you see the 2009 WUSV vid of your puppy's grand sire Hoky Va-Pe? The stoopid 2nd helper stepped on him after the long bite (ouch); and Hoky retaliated by refusing to out on him on the re-attack. So a few words of advice, do not step on your puppy's toes. :smile2:


My own dog had his toes stepped on by helper during the long bite...he outed. I was a bit concerned that he wouldn't but after seeing the photos of the judges smile, well, bonus points should be given now and then!
https://www.facebook.com/jane.biegh...64711406079.1073741828.100000076707255&type=3


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why would somebody opt to own a GSD if they don't want HA? Appropriate HA is breed standard.


I don't think handler aggression is part of the breed standard?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I absolutely love the genetics of the sire Dyson. Hoky, Mischa, Honza, and the right amount of SL during time the SL brought good working genetics and had working structure. Also, this breeding( the sire Dyson) is very well thought out or incredibly lucky. Quite a bit of balancing strengths to weaknesses and compensation breeding to produce strong non sporty genetics as witnessed by Dyson being an LE dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> I don't think handler aggression is part of the breed standard?


Is handler aggression appropriate aggression?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I didn't know they were supposed to be aggressive at all. I knew about aloof, but not aggressive.

SV

The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog. 

AKC

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. *The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.*

I bolded the part that pretty much sums it up, but I see nothing that calls for *aggression*


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> I didn't know they were supposed to be aggressive at all. I knew about aloof, but not aggressive.
> 
> SV
> 
> ...


How is a dog supposed to guard and protect without at least a modicum of (appropriate) aggression?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> How is a dog supposed to guard and protect without at least a modicum of (appropriate) aggression?


Protection is different from aggression. I understand what you all are talking about but I feel like to often aggression is dismissed as a good thing, when in fact it isn't.
If someone attacks me and I use reasonable force to turn them away that is NOT aggression, it's defense.
If I don't like your attitude and I punch you in the face that's aggression.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Is handler aggression appropriate aggression?



Generally speaking, no.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> I didn't know they were supposed to be aggressive at all. I knew about aloof, but not aggressive.
> 
> SV
> 
> ...


The AKC focuses on poor temperament and what a GSD should not be. The SV standard is far better, IMHO.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Protection is different from aggression. I understand what you all are talking about but I feel like to often aggression is dismissed as a good thing, when in fact it isn't.
> If someone attacks me and I use reasonable force to turn them away that is NOT aggression, it's defense.
> If I don't like your attitude and I punch you in the face that's aggression.


Most (if not all) of the dogs I have seen work solely in defense with no active aggression or fight drive have just been nerve bags. Not what I would want in a dog, but to each their own.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I think that it depends on what the dog is being asked to do. Police k9 's/mwd's will need to possess aggression, fight drive, hardness. I believe that German Shepherd were supposed to be just that. Not sport dogs locked in prey. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be good family dogs also, a good German Shepherd should be able to do both.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> Most (if not all) of the dogs I have seen work solely in defense with no active aggression or fight drive have just been nerve bags. Not what I would want in a dog, but to each their own.


Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression

Aggression is overt, often harmful, social interaction with the intention of inflicting damage or other unpleasantness upon another individual. It may occur either in retaliation or without provocation. 

Defense the action of defending from or resisting attack: 
"they relied on missiles for the country's defense" · [more]
synonyms: *protection *· *guarding* · security · fortification · resistance · [more]


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

controlled aggression... there is a difference and discernment in a thinking dog is something to breed for.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
> All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
> Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression
> 
> ...


I like how you had to stick in a nice little “sport dog” jab in there. Both of my dogs have aggression. The one that is half DDR and a quarter Czech is super high defense, definitely not a “sport dog”, but he doesn’t have the nerve strength or clear headedness for his defense drive to do me much good. I much prefer my girl’s temperament, as she enjoys the fight when it is appropriate. She is completely clear headed and has no handler aggression, she isn’t a ticking time bomb, she wouldn’t engage without provocation. My “high defense” dog definitely would. We clearly just want different things from the dogs we share our lives with, and that is fine. But I am really confused how someone who has experience handling dogs that actually work sees no value in a dog having aggression. But anyway, this is off topic. Apologies to the OP for the minor thread derailment.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
> All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
> Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression
> 
> ...


I think the problem is that "aggression" is an emotionally charged word. Knee jerk reaction for people to think it is bad. 

Instead of using the wikipedia definition of aggression (since that entry is slanted towards explaining aggression in_ **** sapien_ I prefer the VCA hospital's definition (since it is slanted towards animal behavior)



> Aggression is defined as threats or harmful actions directed toward another individual and can include threat displays, lunging, growling, snarling, snapping, and biting.
> 
> In animals, aggressive behaviors are a means of communication. Dogs and cats use aggressive displays, threats and attacks to resolve competitive disputes over resources (territory, food) or to increase their reproductive potential, or to escape threatening situations. "Aggression" describes the behavior, but does not give any information about underlying motives or causes. Aggression can have multiple motivations.


There is appropriate aggression - fending off muggers, or predators trying to eat the sheep. And inappropriate aggression - biting the hand that feeds it or lunging at little old ladies at parks.

I think the big take away here though is that: "Aggression" describes the behavior, but does not give any information about underlying motives or causes.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I think the problem is that "aggression" is an emotionally charged word. Knee jerk reaction for people to think it is bad.
> 
> Instead of using the wikipedia definition of aggression (since that entry is slanted towards explaining aggression in_ **** sapien_ I prefer the VCA hospital's definition (since it is slanted towards animal behavior)
> 
> ...


Very well stated. Thank you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I didn't know they were supposed to be aggressive at all. I knew about aloof, but not aggressive.
> 
> SV
> 
> ...


IMO, the standard calls for aggression. How can a GSD work in the capacity of a watchdog or a guardian without aggression? Although the word may not be explicitly stated in the standard, it is implied through the other traits.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Look, I know nothing about what passes in sport dogs.
> All I know is that a dog needs to be strong, balanced and courageous to work. The last thing I need in a mess is a handler aggressive dog, or an aggressive dog at all. A dog that enjoys it's work is one thing, one going looking for trouble is another.
> Perhaps the problem is in the definition of aggression
> 
> ...


Often, the definitions we use when describing a dog's temperament or behavior is different than how we define or describe a person's behavior. A good example is the use of the world "civil." If a person is "civil" they are polite, if a dog is described as "civil" it has an entirely different meaning.

Your definition of "aggression" and "defense" are not entirely accurate when it comes to dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> I like how you had to stick in a nice little “sport dog” jab in there. Both of my dogs have aggression. The one that is half DDR and a quarter Czech is super high defense, definitely not a “sport dog”, but he doesn’t have the nerve strength or clear headedness for his defense drive to do me much good. I much prefer my girl’s temperament, as she enjoys the fight when it is appropriate. She is completely clear headed and has no handler aggression, she isn’t a ticking time bomb, she wouldn’t engage without provocation. My “high defense” dog definitely would. We clearly just want different things from the dogs we share our lives with, and that is fine. But I am really confused how someone who has experience handling dogs that actually work sees no value in a dog having aggression. But anyway, this is off topic. Apologies to the OP for the minor thread derailment.


Not jabbing at anything, apologies if you think so. Rather admitting that I don't know what people want in sport.
As I said the issue is in the definition. What you all call aggression is actually defense, and I don't know what you call defense. 
What I started out commenting on was the statement that handler aggression was ok. It isn't.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Not jabbing at anything, apologies if you think so. Rather admitting that I don't know what people want in sport.
> As I said the issue is in the definition. What you all call aggression is actually defense, and I don't know what you call defense.
> What I started out commenting on was the statement that handler aggression was ok. It isn't.


For the record, I don’t consider handler aggression to be appropriate. Or desirable. And we’ll have to agree to disagree about your definitions of defense and aggression as they pertain to dogs.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

For me it depends. I would consider it appropriate if my dog defended himself. I wouldn't want a dog who's going to just lay there and allow itself to be beaten to death. 

I wouldn't want one who would actively seek me out and bite me. Or one who was so quick to bite that your timing had to be absolutely perfect for a correction. 

But in the end I guess we all have our own version of ideal and believe or not some people find that an ideal and desirable trait. Most likely just to stroke their egos like slam said.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> I think that it depends on what the dog is being asked to do. Police k9 's/mwd's will need to possess aggression, fight drive, hardness. I believe that German Shepherd were supposed to be just that. Not sport dogs locked in prey. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be good family dogs also, a good German Shepherd should be able to do both.


As a breed, I think the GSD is very much a Jack-of-all-trades. No other breed is more versatile in my opinion. But with regards to the individual GSD dog, I think our expectations as owners/handlers are sometimes too high when we expect each dog to be a Jack-of-all-trades. A MWD/K9 that is raised to be an Alpha, in the sense that it does not experience defeat, so as to fight humans and not submit, should not then be expected to willingly become an Omega subordinate to all humans in the family pack.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have found in my limited experiences that there are three types of Handler aggressive dogs.....1) ones that are genetically wired for it, 2) ones that the action was created by owner/handler, 3) ones that are a combination of 1 and 2.
There are dogs that have innate handler or dog aggression, it’s in their dna and you are not going to change them...luckily they are rare and should not be bred for. 
Then there are dogs that are dominant hard dogs, these dogs in natural environment are destined to compete for pack leadership and become leader of the pack. They will function well in packs with strong leadership but will seek the highest place in the pack they can attain. In a family scenario they often ascend to right under the pack leader in the household. Sooooo, if another member of house tries to get them to do something they don’t want to do or corrects them while handling them, the dog will react. People forget that dogs don’t do democracy when it comes to resisting what they don’t want to do....they voice their dissent with aggression in many occasions. When this happens they are often labeled handler aggressive or just plain aggressive. Put that same dog in experienced family/ handler and problem disappears.
Finally, there are dogs that will not accept an unfair correction from anyone. The problem often is threshold and determination of threshold of unfair....both in the dog’s eyes and in the handler’s.
The last two type dogs are not only more times than not great working dogs, but frankly the type dog a dog needs to face adversity in a job whether it is herding, guarding, protecting, or LE work.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > I think that it depends on what the dog is being asked to do. Police k9 's/mwd's will need to possess aggression, fight drive, hardness. I believe that German Shepherd were supposed to be just that. Not sport dogs locked in prey. Doesn't mean that they shouldn't be good family dogs also, a good German Shepherd should be able to do both.
> ...


I disagree. A German Shepherd should 100% be able to be fearless and actively engage any threat or target that is asked of it by its handler, whether that threat be man or animal. Guarding behavior or actively seeking out a suspect and engaging. This would constitute the need for aggression. And be aloof to any non-threatening persons or animal. So if a dog is to be expected to be aloof towards non-threatening strangers, why could it also not be a good family dog. I think we have come to expect too little from our German Shepherds. We breed specialist dogs that we call MWD's or LEO's or sport dogs. When the goal should be to breed dogs that could fulfill any of those roles. I get that not every dog even in a perfectly paired breeding will fit these roles. However, most don't even try anymore.
I have seen and trained with dogs that could fit the exact description described above. Fearless, aggression when called for, to use your analogy alpha, believes that it will never lose or submit to a human.yet is very affectionate with the family, aloof towards strangers. Not impossible to achieve. It should be the goal of every breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

cdwoodcox said:


> I disagree. A German Shepherd should 100% be able to be fearless and actively engage any threat or target that is asked of it by its handler, whether that threat be man or animal. Guarding behavior or actively seeking out a suspect and engaging. This would constitute the need for aggression. And be aloof to any non-threatening persons or animal. So if a dog is to be expected to be aloof towards non-threatening strangers, why could it also not be a good family dog. I think we have come to expect too little from our German Shepherds. We breed specialist dogs that we call MWD's or LEO's or sport dogs. When the goal should be to breed dogs that could fulfill any of those roles. I get that not every dog even in a perfectly paired breeding will fit these roles. However, most don't even try anymore.
> I have seen and trained with dogs that could fit the exact description described above. Fearless, aggression when called for, to use your analogy alpha, believes that it will never lose or submit to a human.yet is very affectionate with the family, aloof towards strangers. Not impossible to achieve. It should be the goal of every breeding.


Question, are the dogs you have described in your last paragraph that you have seen, owned, or trained with....the norm or the exception?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree. A German Shepherd should 100% be able to be fearless and actively engage any threat or target that is asked of it by its handler, whether that threat be man or animal. Guarding behavior or actively seeking out a suspect and engaging. This would constitute the need for aggression. And be aloof to any non-threatening persons or animal. So if a dog is to be expected to be aloof towards non-threatening strangers, why could it also not be a good family dog. I think we have come to expect too little from our German Shepherds. We breed specialist dogs that we call MWD's or LEO's or sport dogs. When the goal should be to breed dogs that could fulfill any of those roles. I get that not every dog even in a perfectly paired breeding will fit these roles. However, most don't even try anymore.
> ...


 Disclaimer, I have only trained at three different clubs. Over one year. So my reference of sport dogs are small. But in my overall experience with dogs. The dogs I have described are the exception. Their purpose or job was determined by their training not the dogs weaknesses.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I should add that when I went down to indy to get some help with my helper work the club I went to was also home to a breeder. His dogs consistently produce dogs like I have described. Along with another breeder that has dogs at my weekly club. I believe their dogs are strong dogs. But overall it seems people don't breed for dogs like I described.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I owned a GSD, pedigree unknown, who in all ways but health was the ideal dog. She swung easily between work and home, did her job with ease, displayed no inappropriate aggression, played with the neighborhood kids and was indifferent to strangers. She bit like a gator, could track anything, displayed easy discernment and had incomparable work ethic. Was male dog intolerant would be her only fault.
I owned a dog, purpose bred for work with a solid pedigree, who was aloof to the point of being rude, who with work learned to deal in social settings, who was amazingly obedient, indifferent to neutral dogs but would not out once engaged with an human attacker. He was incapable of differentiating work and home, always alert for trouble. He displayed some handler aggression, in that he would not take what he deemed an unfair correction. But we did notice a difference between tolerance when I had the leash versus a different handler. So possibly just a bonding thing. He was largely DDR breeding.


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