# Arched back?



## LauraJav

Is an arched back normal? 
Max looks like he has an arch to his back- will he outgrow this?


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## LoveEcho

Can we have some pictures? Side profile.


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## doggiedad

roach back. research it.


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## LauraJav

Trying to add picture


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## x11

its "the look" in some circles.


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## LauraJav

Roach back- never heard of that- thanks! I learn more and more of the variations of these dogs from you guys and my Max.


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## doggiedad

my dog is roached but the area is further up his back.


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## qbchottu

Before the assumptions start, note this is a sable - most likely working line 

He has a lot of rear angulation, a shorter front arm, and flat to normal withers - all this combined gives his back a curve when he is bunched up because the front is down lower than the back - I see this in working dogs as they tend to have fronts that drop down because of flatter withers and short arms. He is a puppy and at an awkward stage - he will grow into himself, but will likely always go down in the front because of the short arm and withers.


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## x11

wow, relax.


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## qbchottu

x11 said:


> wow, relax.


Funny that you respond in that manner...I had only read the OP and title before posting!


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## x11

have you ever heard of the inference ladder? you just ran straight to the top of it.


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## LauraJav

Short arms? Will that cause any issues? 
My pup is like a T-Rex...lol
He's a mess- but we love him.


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## doggiedad

that was a relaxed, knowledgeable response.



qbchottu said:


> Before the assumptions start, note this is a sable - most likely working line
> 
> He has a lot of rear angulation, a shorter front arm, and flat to normal withers - all this combined gives his back a curve when he is bunched up because the front is down lower than the back - I see this in working dogs as they tend to have fronts that drop down because of flatter withers and short arms. He is a puppy and at an awkward stage - he will grow into himself, but will likely always go down in the front because of the short arm and withers.





x11 said:


> wow, relax.


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## qbchottu

x11: lot of verbiage - little substance. Here was my reasoning: arched back -> roach back -> WGSL - so I pointed out something not everyone will catch. Went on to explain the structural reasons as to why, but you probably knew all that already 

LauraJav: No that won't cause any issues - his reach might be restricted slightly in the front, but he will be fine to play, run, and be a fantastic companion. Funny you say T-rex because I have seen much much more extreme examples than Max 
He isn't a mess at all - he is a very nice dog and those structural points are characteristic of certain lines.


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## Liesje

I see the same, front and back look like they belong to two different dogs. Back is "roached" (the wither is not the highest point). It's a bad picture (bad angle) and the dog is at an age where it's not really fair to judge. I'd be more concerned about movement, like if the dog is really cowhocked, down on the hocks or pasterns, and/or really loose (floppy) but we can't see that in a photo.


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## LauraJav

What is WGSL?
I feel like I'm missing something.


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## qbchottu

WGSL is West German Showline - some people will label these lines as "roach backed". 

True roach back is when there is a point on the back that is higher than the wither. I would be interested to see your dog stacked properly - he will probably not have a roach or arch - maybe a dip as his withers transition into the back. The good thing is he is a coatie - his full coat will hide some little things that would stick out more on a dog with a tight coat.


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## robk

My dog is a working line and he has a curved spine. It is the one trait that I am the most critical of him. You can see pictures of him in this thread that posted today;
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/259146-ruger-2-years-old.html

He is very athletic though and it doesn't seam to affect his ability to do anything. I am going to attempt an endurance test (the IPO AD) with him next week. We shall see then how he holds up. (and how I hold up for that matter )


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## NancyJ

Not sure what lines her pup is - I thought ASL from an older post in Dec - "Janry" is breeder? And he is a pup at what is a gangly age for some.

Anyway-I know there are some other threads on pain in front, and the pasterns sure look down. It would be good to get some side shots with the dog not eating. And maybe oriented properly? Hard to look sideways at a photo.

Just out of curiousity - what is he eating? I have read here that too high protein can drop the pasterns.


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## qbchottu

robk said:


> My dog is a working line and he has a curved spine. It is the one trait that I am the most critical of him. You can see pictures of him in this thread that posted today;
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/259146-ruger-2-years-old.html
> 
> He is very athletic though and it doesn't seam to affect his ability to do anything. I am going to attempt an endurance test (the IPO AD) with him next week. We shall see then how he holds up. (and how I hold up for that matter )


robk: you are being a little more severe on your boy than you should be. The pictures are really not doing him any justice - I only used the last pic as it is the nearest to correct. He is only 2 and will continue to fill out and mature. He has a nice dark mask, dark eyes, good pigment, nice color. He has moderate bone, and could use more substance. Could use a little more masculinity, but he is still maturing. Are you hiking or swimming? A month or so beforehand, hike him uphill as much as you can and up his food to build up his chest, forehand, and rear. 

He is splaying out a little in front so make sure he gets stacked with his feet in. You must groom his topline before the show - let me know when and where you plan to show him, if I am there, I will groom him - if not, I will find someone and we will ask them to groom him beforehand. Take an undercoat rake with single row and remove some of the body in the hair of the withers - must use some spray and moderate out that dip from his withers to back. It occurs in a lot of working dogs - is that tuft of hair at the base of his neck thick? Thinning it out and grooming properly can showcase his topline better.

Looks to have a nice firm back, but his croup is short, flat, and high - tailset also high. Pretty nice angulation in the rear, needs more front angulation, upper arm needs to be a little longer, shoulder will likely be a little restricted (not sure, need to see him move - might also be a little loose in the rear because of all that angulation so make sure to hike him uphill lots and have him pull for you as you call him). His rear angulation will be a lot for his front to handle so practice some if you can - some of these working dogs with lot of drive will push into the ground and it makes them look down in front even worse. Train to get his head up and looking for you so we can help his withers and front look the best we can. Good expression and nice dog. Congrats! 

Get him used to checking teeth and testicles - with show training, a good handler, conditioning, and grooming - he could try for a SG.


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## x11

qbchottu said:


> x11: lot of verbiage - little substance. Here was my reasoning: arched back -> roach back -> WGSL - so I pointed out something not everyone will catch. Went on to explain the structural reasons as to why, but you probably knew all that already
> 
> LauraJav: No that won't cause any issues - his reach might be restricted slightly in the front, but he will be fine to play, run, and be a fantastic companion. Funny you say T-rex because I have seen much much more extreme examples than Max
> He isn't a mess at all - he is a very nice dog and those structural points are characteristic of certain lines.


wow, did not realise one could get that defensive that quick over the word roach. 

you been around mean people or sumthin? we got nothing but love for each other here, even for you roachies :laugh:


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## qbchottu

Yep, lot of talk - little substance!


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## mego

I didn't see any defensive posts by qbchottu in here lol, just explanations?


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## Andaka

x11 said:


> wow, did not realise one could get that defensive that quick over the word roach.
> 
> you been around mean people or sumthin? we got nothing but love for each other here, even for you roachies :laugh:


Chill. 

Daphne -- moderator


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## robk

qbchottu said:


> robk: you are being a little more severe on your boy than you should be. The pictures are really not doing him any justice - I only used the last pic as it is the nearest to correct. He is only 2 and will continue to fill out and mature. He has a nice dark mask, dark eyes, good pigment, nice color. He has moderate bone, and could use more substance. Could use a little more masculinity, but he is still maturing. Are you hiking or swimming? A month or so beforehand, hike him uphill as much as you can and up his food to build up his chest, forehand, and rear.
> 
> He is splaying out a little in front so make sure he gets stacked with his feet in. You must groom his topline before the show - let me know when and where you plan to show him, if I am there, I will groom him - if not, I will find someone and we will ask them to groom him beforehand. Take an undercoat rake with single row and remove some of the body in the hair of the withers - must use some spray and moderate out that dip from his withers to back. It occurs in a lot of working dogs - is that tuft of hair at the base of his neck thick? Thinning it out and grooming properly can showcase his topline better.
> 
> Looks to have a nice firm back, but his croup is short, flat, and high - tailset also high. Pretty nice angulation in the rear, needs more front angulation, upper arm needs to be a little longer, shoulder will likely be a little restricted (not sure, need to see him move - might also be a little loose in the rear because of all that angulation so make sure to hike him uphill lots and have him pull for you as you call him). His rear angulation will be a lot for his front to handle so practice some if you can - some of these working dogs with lot of drive will push into the ground and it makes them look down in front even worse. Train to get his head up and looking for you so we can help his withers and front look the best we can. Good expression and nice dog. Congrats!
> 
> Get him used to checking teeth and testicles - with show training, a good handler, conditioning, and grooming - he could try for a SG.


Thanks! Just so I don't risk hijacking this thread, I am going to copy your post in to Ruger's thread. Rob


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## ksotto333

@ *qbchottu..
*I just wanted to say whenever I see that you've posted I look to see what you have to say. I may not understand all of it, but it helps me to learn..thanks...


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## Ocean

I've been on this forum off and on for the last 10 years...lurked some..participated some. There used to be some very knowledgeable people who used to be more active but some may have been driven off by incessant potshots from the peanut gallery.
We should all be glad that qbchottu continues to post her educational and useful contributions....everyone including WL people like me still have a lot to learn.


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## RocketDog

Andaka said:


> Chill.
> 
> Daphne -- moderator



:wub:




ksotto333 said:


> @ *qbchottu..
> *I just wanted to say whenever I see that you've posted I look to see what you have to say. I may not understand all of it, but it helps me to learn..thanks...





Ocean said:


> I've been on this forum off and on for the last 10 years...lurked some..participated some. There used to be some very knowledgeable people who used to be more active but some may have been driven off by incessant potshots from the peanut gallery.
> We should all be glad that qbchottu continues to post her educational and useful contributions....everyone including WL people like me still have a lot to learn.


This.


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## qbchottu

Aimee, Ocean, ksotto33 and mego - thank you and appreciate it. Glad there are still gems in this barren wasteland! Easy to get jaded around here! 

It's interesting that the ones that have the _least_ to say are also the ones that _most_ need to attract attention in more rudimentary and crass ways...


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## Zeeva

Is this a roached (sp?) back?

good to see you here qbchottu c:


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## martemchik

Zeeva said:


> Is this a roached (sp?) back?
> 
> good to see you here qbchottu c:


No she's not roached...her hips are just higher than her withers and that might just be because of the way she's standing.

A roach is easily seen...right after the withers (shoulders) the spine goes up instead of down or straight. The highest point of the dog's back is pretty much right behind the withers rather than the withers themselves. It's very easy to spot. Your dog has a straight back and not enough rear angulation which causes the hips to be higher than the withers (kind of lab like). Actually after a second look...she's just fine...just standing "lazy" her withers are still definitely higher than her hips and if you stacked her properly you shouldn't see a dip in her back at all. The way she's standing is like a backwards roach...so that could give you some idea of what a roached back means.

Some people also call it a "banana back" because if you turned a banana with the curve down the back tends to look like it.


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## qbchottu

I would say swayback more than a true roach - her topline sags from the withers to the middle of the back where she is level and then picks back up high into the hips and then falls again into a slightly steep croup. Zeeva is different than the dogs we were previously critiquing - she has insufficient front and rear angulation (compare to the rear angulation on OP's dog) - needs more length of the arm - she will be restricted in her movement.


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## martemchik

qbchottu said:


> I would say swayback more than a true roach - her topline sags from the withers to the middle of the back where she is level and then picks back up high into the hips and then falls again into a slightly steep croup. Zeeva is different than the dogs we were previously critiquing - she has insufficient front and rear angulation (compare to the rear angulation on OP's dog) - needs more length of the arm - she will be restricted in her movement.


Why you always gotta one up me?!?! :wild:


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## qbchottu

hahahah


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## BowWowMeow

Are you sure this pup is from working lines? This is where the pup comes from: Janry's AKC German Shepherd Puppies 

Looking back at the OP's posts, this pup has had a lot of health problems so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the structure as a growing phase. It is very hard to tell from a sideways picture but he does look down in the hocks and pasterns. I would be looking into some physical therapy to try to strengthen and tighten things up now, while he's young. 

What did his parents look like?


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## DaniFani

I always love these critique posts, I learn so much. Sometimes it's overwhelming because I just don't get how someone can look at a dog and see ALL those things!! But, I love reading and trying to see it myself. So thanks for the input from all on these posts. I know there are more like me that enjoy reading it and learning from it, hope there are always some willingly to teach noobs. ;-)


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## Pooky44

LauraJav said:


> Trying to add picture


Based only on this picture he appears to have a rounded spine.
But he is also eating and may be drawing his hindquarters up
closer which would enhance the spine rounding.
OP needs to provide more pictures.
We are seeing more and more rounded backs because they are
becoming popular because they look more angulated in the rear.
Breeders will go to great lengths to make the hindquarters
be or appear lower than the 'front end'. I guess it looks
more streamlined (?)
JMHO


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## RubyTuesday

Gbchottu, very nice & thorough analyses. Thanks.


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## carmspack

hi - for all the new readers I am going to resurrect an old thread discussing the anatomy and repercussions of a roach back -- plus for those wanting a view of a nice dog Liesje has her beautifully conformed male as an example .
I will try to find an example of roach and extreme roach , hinged to illustrate the conformation.
The OPs dog may very well be an American type bred dog .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-breeders-who-dont-breed-roach-back-look.html 


*Roached Back*


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## LauraJav

Hi- I will try to get a better picture- he is from Janry. I was looking for a family pet- didnt really get any information - except he's be a good family pet.


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## x11

".....Look for breeders breeding nice V-rated dogs that aren't necessarily the top V or VA dogs in the world. These top dogs are often the ones getting the most breedings but tend to be the most extreme..."


wow, so one should breed from the second tier dogs that were not good enough to be considered the "top dogs" as judged by international experts of the breed???

kinda funny and sad at the same time, it's no wonder newbs get confused about what a good GSD is supposed to be like. its all just personal opinion and what hot this month.


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## Liesje

VA ratings are kind of above and beyond judging a dog against a standard. You have to have 3 generations of Koer'd dogs in the pedigree and often a judge will want to see a progeny group, sometimes multiple times. Dogs being campaigned for VA ratings are showing year round and the owner/breeder is making sure to get as many progeny in shows as possible. At that level they are really being judged on what they produce. There are plenty of V-rated dogs that have just as good of conformation as VA dogs but aren't showing 10 times a year and presenting progeny groups. They are not "second tier" dogs as evident by the fact that they are *V* rated, lol.


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## x11

gotcha


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## Gwenhwyfair

It is a good place to learn!

I have a pretty good eye with horses and fortunately some of the basics transfer to dogs (movement, even gait, freedom through the shoulder for a more ground covering gait so on). After awhile you develop a more discerning eye looking at many dogs.

I'll look at pics here, just make mental notes about what I see because dog conformation is not my area of expertise, and then wait for folks like qbchottu or Liesje to chime and see how many points good or bad I could pick out. 



DaniFani said:


> I always love these critique posts, I learn so much. Sometimes it's overwhelming because I just don't get how someone can look at a dog and see ALL those things!! But, I love reading and trying to see it myself. So thanks for the input from all on these posts. I know there are more like me that enjoy reading it and learning from it, hope there are always some willingly to teach noobs. ;-)


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## doggiedad

hey, what about me? read my post (#13). i'm on your side.
well, i was. :laugh:



qbchottu said:


> Aimee, Ocean, ksotto33 and mego - thank you and appreciate it. Glad there are still gems in this barren wasteland! Easy to get jaded around here!
> 
> It's interesting that the ones that have the _least_ to say are also the ones that _most_ need to attract attention in more rudimentary and crass ways...


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