# Thoughts on these dogs and breeder?



## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

http://www.ohertannen.com/litters.htm


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

Look good to me!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Don't see anything out of the normal, hips/elbows, titled, show rating, korklassed. I don't like all the linebreeding that showline breeders do, but at least it's being done here at 4-5 generations back.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I don't know the breeder.

On the pups, I will say that the selection of the dam and sire completment each other very well. The line breeding isn't as bad as most Showlines so IMHO that is a good thing. 
Quizno von Wilhendorf
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/548544.html

Pharah von der Urbecke
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/450943.html

Pharah had a previous littler with TeeJay Wilhendorf and now will have a litter with a TJ son. 

Val


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

Looks good to me. Breeds by SV standards and requirements, dogs are titled, hip/joint certified. Definitely worth a talking to. Let us know how it goes!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I know breeders who swear by Karly Arminius for stability and working ability - litter has a good deal of linebreeding - but pretty much all showline litters do...breeding to SV standards with good quality dogs from what I glean from their site.

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Karly is a very good dog for nerves and working ability in the pedigree. We brought in a young dog with Karly that was slated for k9 work- when I saw the pedigree, we contacted a show person in the area and he bought the dog.


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WI don't like all the linebreeding that showline breeders do, but at least it's being done here at 4-5 generations back.


So, shall we almost always prefer a dog with less linebreeding? For example, I am looking at two female pedigrees below - one with fair amount of linebreeding:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/563310.html

With no linebreeding in 5 generations:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/473293.html

I think both of them have some good quality bloodlines. So, if I have to choose between the two for litter, would the decision boil down to how much linebreeding is seen in the pedigree? (Assuming everything else the same)


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I wouldn't pick the 2nd one only because of the poor markings. She's too washed out. Her father is very heavily linebred and so is her mother. wow. 

So even though the first is an outcross, she's heavily linebred in her pedigree. 

The first one, parents only have 3 dogs instead of say 6 or 7 like the other one. I'd rather pick the first over the 2nd.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Females are only half of the genetic make up. When I was looking for puppies, there were females I liked but passed on that litter because I didnt like the male, happend the other way around also, liked the male but didn't like the female. 

So you need to look at both sides before making a decision. There is no lacking in pigment in the offspring listed on the Pedigree Database of the female that is lacking pigment.

So as they say it takes two to Tango.

Val


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Gragady, I don't know if you are serious about the linebreeding question or not. Linebreeding is not the problem. Extensive linebreeding over a prolonged period of time on a very few dogs is the problem. Think about this....if we agree with science that too much linebreeding and too close inbreeding can lead to mental and health defects....then which of these two situations would "seem" to you to be more harmful,1) A dog that is linebred 4-4 on a single dog, but the single dog isn't linebred on or has very little linebreeding, or 2) A dog that is linebred 5-5 or 6-6, but both parents are linebred 4-4 and all four grandparents are linebred, and ALL these linebreedings go back to only two dogs. Now go back to the two dogs you have the pedigrees of, and go back 10 generations, and if you see the same dogs once you get seven,eight generations back then you know you have too much, but if seven, eight generations back the dogs pedigrees open up in different directions then you have another situation. One is healthy and the other is too much, you should be able to figure out how these pedigrees fit.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Cliff, I realize it's not a b&w situation but roughly what's 'too close' & 'too much'?

Also (blushing furiously)...I often see the 4-4, 5-5 designations but I'm not certain how to interpret those #s...To assess linebreeding how does one properly read & analyze the pedigree(s)?

Thanks!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

RT - First off - when you have pedigrees on dogs with linebreeding - it is very helpful to find out what those dogs are known to have passed on to their progeny/descendants.....look at the pedigree and count how many times a particular name appears in the pedigree, a 4-4 means the dog appears in the 4th generation in both sire and dam, a 2-5,5 means 2nd generation in sire, and twice in the 5th generation in dam...etc.

gagrady's links - Just scanning these quickly!

The first pedigree is very very heavily linebred and then "backmassed" - pulling it up on a 7 generation screen, and counting the 8th when Uran is in 7, you can find 11 (or maybe more) lines to Palme Wildsteigerland - 

The second pedigree has - wow Palme 13 times, at least 5 or maybe 6 x Q litter Arminius and Lasso di Sole 7 times....so lots of backmassing - 

This is how the show "type" was "set" a small gene pool was utilized and many "tight" breedings done to get a consistant look as the genetics were similar throughout the pedigree. Both these and probably a ton of other pedigrees are going to show the same types of pattern - lots of dogs in 7-10 backmassed...with Palme for example, as well as Q and C litters Arminius being some you will probably find in a very high percentage of showline dogs

Lee


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Lee, thank you SO much for that explanation!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee your analysis is quite correct...the point being is whether people are aware of the effects of extensive backmassing, and are they aware of just how saturated this backmassing is on the showlines. Now take these same dogs back 10 to 15 generations and the genetic pool narrows even more into mostly Canto/Quanto v d Weinerau. This is why you can't keep "digging" deeper into this hole and expect things to improve in health or temperament areas no matter how good the health or temperament of the two showline dogs appear....genetically you are digging deeper and deeper....and I think the state of these lines reflect this.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks, Lee...<still blushing>Exactly what is backmassing? Is it something akin to linebreeding dogs that are already heavily linebred? People think I'm nuts when I say it's not simply incest ruining breeds...it's the incest piled on top of incest on top of yet more incest. However creepy it is, nature is fairly tolerant of a *little* incest, even close incest, whether in dogs or humans...but keeping it within the family generation upon generation invites disaster.



> Quote:This is why you can't keep "digging" deeper into this hole and expect things to improve in health or temperament areas no matter how good the health or temperament of the two showline dogs appear....genetically you are digging deeper and deeper....and I think the state of these lines reflect this.


 It's not just showlines, Cliff...Or GSDs. In so many ways, throughout so many breeds, pb dogs are an absolute mess. People are prepared to go to the mats over docking & cropping (which I don't like, btw) yet they're comfortable seeing dogs bred that injure their eyes if they run into a wall!?!? Or dogs that can neither breed nor birth naturally! Dogs who jeopardize their health if they run fer chrissake. I don't get how people feel entitled to do such things to sentient creatures.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

RT,
In German Shepherds it IS primarily showlines (American and West German) that do this extensive backmassing. As for your question as to why do people do it....its because people are selfish!!! People care much more about what"THEY" think the breed should look and act like than what the standard calls for.....period. That's why it pisses me off when the sanctimonious reputable breeders that continue to do this backmassing strut around like they are the right way to GS breeding......and the more they breed the further away from the standard we get. After all the standard as a "WHOLE" creates a fine working dog that is capable of performing almost any function. When's the last time you went to a Breed show and the dogs you saw represented this concept. Its crazy!! Noooo, its selfish...two out of 10 showline dogs can do what a "real" German Shepherd should be able to do in terms of creation and legacy. Let some unreputable breeder breed dogs with this percentage of hip history and whoa!! what a disservice they are doing to the breed (look at their website for Christsakes), Yet these stellar breeders breed the "whole" dog on that same percentage basis that couldn't lead a blind person in a place with loud noises and unfamilar terrain. Who is really unscrupulous????? If show people get upset at my posts than I must be hitting a nerve, because if what I say was foolishness it wouldn't upset people because they would know its not the case. No, RT its people's ego and selfishness, that breed for personal desires, instead of breeding for what the dog should be; that is why they "DO" this.JMO


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

"There is a favorite breeding theory, or system, used by successful breeders of many varieties of animals. It usually eventuates in superior stock IF the male selected is himself an outstanding specimen, nearly faultless, and has such progenitors. It goes as follows: Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam, on the dam's side".

The problem is -as I see it - the majority of breeders have no breeding plan or have a plan that is built upon paper titles and ill judged conformation over health and temperament. "Paper breeding" with no regard to the numerous health and temperament issues that are exhibited in this breed is a major problem.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Doc, IMO inbreeding, at almost any level, s/b done with extreme caution & an absolute willingness to backoff if problems present.

Genetically there's a lot more to the dog than what is *seen*. Because of inbreeding so called 'rare recessives' for health/temperament disorders are increasingly common. Ditto the dastardly 'multi genes' implicated in so many problems such as cancer or HD/ED.

Unfortunately I've talked to many breeders, including some that are very well regarded, that are loathe to admit problems are genetic in nature. Granted, many problems are indirectly genetic, but it's both foolish & dangerous to deny (ignore!) the genetic component.

What's with dogs (carnivores!!!) that are allergic to chicken, beef, turkey fer crissake! Dogs that are increasingly intolerant of vaccines, when yesteryears dogs were safely vaccinated annually. (IMO bad medicine,but the dogs were largely unaffected). Dogs that present with cancer at 4, 5 6yrs of age? Dogs who can't eat unless the food is pre-digested? 

The results are brutally unfair to the dogs & to loving, often naive owners. Especially since too often so called 'good breeders' can be among the worst offenders. Note, it's not just GSDs I'm thinking of.


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## nachtschatten (Sep 22, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> 
> What's with dogs (carnivores!!!) that are allergic to chicken, beef, turkey fer crissake! Dogs that are increasingly intolerant of vaccines, when yesteryears dogs were safely vaccinated annually. (IMO bad medicine,but the dogs were largely unaffected). Dogs that present with cancer at 4, 5 6yrs of age? Dogs who can't eat unless the food is pre-digested?


Probably off topic, but while I agree with the genetic theory when it comes to EPI, dysplasia, etc... I do not necessarily agree that it is in-breeding causing cancers, allergies to the protein in a food, and reactions to vaccines. I think the food and over vaccinating contribute largely to those things. A dog is not meant to have grains, and of course, when it has a reaction to the food, it is always blamed on the protein source, but not the grain. I work at 2 vet clinics, and we have seen an increase in vaccine reactions. We have since changed vaccine suppliers, and switched to a 3 year vaccine protocol, but WHY are these reactions happening?


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## anetaze (May 10, 2009)

Ruby Tuesday I completely agree with your thoughts. For example, my previous GSD lived 14.5 years healthy til 14 and then declined til she died. But now I am looking at these dogs and talk with the breeders and they all say their dogs on average live 8-11 and yes they do get cancers, organs removed, etc.

So is it best to get a dog w/o linebreeding at all or is ok when they claim they're doing it at a 5-5 level? I don't understand this whole process anyways in my opinion there should not be any inbreeding at all but I'm not professional enough to perhaps have an opinion on this.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Following the tangent that's started here....

While I certainly agree that excessive linebreeding and backmassing is detrimental to health, temperament, structure and everything else, I also have to wonder if some of the health issues (cancers, allergies, etc..) we are seeing in dogs now compared to years ago doesn't have other factors.

The first being a simple change in perspective. Years ago these problems may have existed, but people didn't notice or if they did they didn't put a name to it because there weren't firm diagnosis and medical tests for much of this stuff. I mean 20 years ago I don't think anyone had even thought of doing allergy testing on dogs, whereas now it's quite common. So maybe those allergies existed but weren't identified. Also throw in the internet. 20 years ago we also wouldn't have been talking with people from all over the country/world and learning about the health issues in their dogs. And since people tend to make posts on BBs when there are problems or questions, but there aren't many "hey, my dog does NOT have allergies/HD/EPI/Pannus/etc..." posts to balance it out, so it can make things appear more widespread than they are.

Second, and most interesting to me if anyone could figure out how to study it, I wonder how many dogs today are paying for mistakes in health care and nutrition made with their ancestors? Are some of the cancers and allergies and other things we are seeing today genetic in the sense of actually being genetic, or is it from fundamental damage done to the DNA and immune systems of their parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents that were living off Ol' Roy and table scraps, severely overvaccinated, exposed to all sorts of toxins, not just those found in the environment but many of them intentionally applied by well meaning owners who thought they were doing the right thing; topical flea products, heartworm preventative whether needed or not, intestinal wormers whether needed or not, etc....

I do wonder if the problems seen in many dogs today aren't a result of the cummulative effect of the past several generations of such unnatural dog keeping.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Interesting point, Chris, especially this bit, "Also throw in the internet. 20 years ago we also wouldn't have been talking with people from all over the country/world and learning about the health issues in their dogs. And since people tend to make posts on BBs when there are problems or questions, but there aren't many "hey, my dog does NOT have allergies/HD/EPI/Pannus/etc..." posts to balance it out, so it can make things appear more widespread than they are."

I don't see why a GSD can't live to be 12 years or more. My Kenya's father lived to be 14 and her mother is still alive (I think she is 14 now, maybe 15). Kenya has good hips and elbows, no allergies, eyes were CERFed, haven't seen a hotspot yet...just an ear infection here or there and that's been it for her so far...


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:...in my opinion there should not be any inbreeding at all but I'm not professional enough to perhaps have an opinion on this.


I don't breed so there's a great deal about the finer points that I don't know. IF the level of linebreeding in a particular litter/pup was a concern to me I'd seek the advice of wiser, experienced people such as Doc or Cliff. 

Dana, historically dogs (& even cats!) did well on really crappy food. I feed high quality food but I don't think the rampant health problems in dogs are due to diet. It is (IMO) over whelmingly due to poor breeding decisions...decisions that reliably produce a certain look or 'type' but sacrifice much of the dog's mind, heart & body.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeInteresting point, Chris, especially this bit, "Also throw in the internet. 20 years ago we also wouldn't have been talking with people from all over the country/world and learning about the health issues in their dogs. And since people tend to make posts on BBs when there are problems or questions, but there aren't many "hey, my dog does NOT have allergies/HD/EPI/Pannus/etc..." posts to balance it out, so it can make things appear more widespread than they are."
> 
> I don't see why a GSD can't live to be 12 years or more. My Kenya's father lived to be 14 and her mother is still alive (I think she is 14 now, maybe 15). Kenya has good hips and elbows, no allergies, eyes were CERFed, haven't seen a hotspot yet...just an ear infection here or there and that's been it for her so far...


Exactly. I do wonder how much perspectives get skewed because people just don't often talk about the LACK of problems.

In my adult life I've owned 14 GSDs. Some are still here, some have passed on, some were rehomed after several years with us but we still keep in contact and know how they're doing. Of those, we've had 1 cancer, 1 cauda equina and 5 HDs (4 Mild, 1 Moderate). That's it. Absolutely none of the other common genetic problems. And those HD cases would have never been known if not for x-rays. Even the one with Moderate HD in both hips is still going strong at almost 10, acts like a puppy most of the time and has never had any symptoms whatsoever. If it were 20 years ago, before x-rays became common practice, no one would have ever known any of those dogs had bad hips.

Add to those 14 the 13 rescues/fosters we've had and it's 4 more cases of HD (again, all Mild, absolutely no impact on quality of life and never would have known without x-rays), 1 mild case of allergies and 1 case of chronic ear infections (determined to also be allergy related). That's it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: anetaRuby Tuesday I completely agree with your thoughts. For example, my previous GSD lived 14.5 years healthy til 14 and then declined til she died. But now I am looking at these dogs and talk with the breeders and they all say their dogs on average live 8-11 and yes they do get cancers, organs removed, etc.
> 
> So is it best to get a dog w/o linebreeding at all or is ok when they claim they're doing it at a 5-5 level? I don't understand this whole process anyways in my opinion there should not be any inbreeding at all but I'm not professional enough to perhaps have an opinion on this.


You cannot avoid linebreeding entirely. For starters, it is how breeds are created in the first place. And when done judiciously and in moderation, it's not a bad thing. It's all in how it's used, the dog's being linebred on, and how much.

Also, read Cliff's post above. It's not just linebreeding in recent generations that is of concern, the bigger issue is backmassing on a very small group of dogs generations before. If looking at linebreeding, only dogs in the first 5 generations hit the radar because back past that linebreeding isn't calculated. So a dog who may show up closely linebred, say 2-3 on ONE dog, but has a pretty open and diverse pedigree back past that is far less genetically bottlenecked than a dog who technically has no linebreeding, but his parents or grandparents or great-grandparents had a lot and the same 2 dogs occupy half the spots in the 7th and 8th generations.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I think the root to poor health and temperament stems from particular bloodlines. Or more specifically, lines that exhibit over-the-top drives. My thoughts are these types of dogs are "wired" at a different level and therefore their body is always under some sort of stress. Stress leads to depletion of vitamins and minerals which leads to poor health which affects temperament that results in allergies, cancer, bloat, pancreatic disorders, etc. I think, but could very well be wrong, that dogs from the Thuringian line of German shepherds may have more health issues then either the Scwabian or Wurtemberger lines. 

It would be an interesting study to see if there is significant differences in health issues among East German lines, West German lines, Thuringian, Schwabian, Wurtemberger, DDR lines, American lines, and the combination of any two or three. 

I will not venture into my rant about "skewed" reports other than to say that OFA is a prime example of people reporting the dogs that "pass" and the other folks who don't report non-passing grades. And then the OFA can say, we have had an impact on the hips of German shepherds because look how many are passing the grade now! I may have been born at night - but I wasn't born last night and this "aint" my first rodeo either!

I do think several of the more reported health issues can be altered through proper compensatory breeding and outcrosses. Which brings us back to line breeding and backmassing. Where are you going to find "new" blood if everyone is related and all the "good" dogs contain the same blood?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocI think the root to poor health and temperament stems from particular bloodlines. Or more specifically, lines that exhibit over-the-top drives. My thoughts are these types of dogs are "wired" at a different level and therefore their body is always under some sort of stress.


While I know the type of behavior you are referring to, and also believe it can be linked to health issues, I think it essential to point out that this has NOTHING to do with drives, over the top or otherwise, and EVERYTHING to do with nerves.

Drive and nerve are commonly muddled together with people thinking hyperactive and anxious behavior is the result of the dog being "high drive". That is not the case. The highest drive dog in the world, if the nerves are sound, has a great off switch and thus is quite relaxed and confident when appropriate, and is certainly not hyperactive or anxious. Those behaviors stem from nerve weakness, and in fact many dogs who display those behaviors have no drive whatsoever.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I am not debating the difference between drive and nerves.

I contend anything that stimulates and moves the body to higher state of awareness both physically and mentally places stress on the body. And the body remains under stress until it returns to a relaxed state. During this time of heighten awareness, body parts can be under attack because of insufficient vitamin/mineral levels, poor nutrition, or poor (weaker) genetics.

Nervy and anxious dogs do not remain at a relaxed state over a given time and therefore are under more physical and mental stress.

My thoughts are that dogs that are from the Thuringian line are more susceptible to stress than other older bloodlines and therefore experience poorer health and exhibit many physical disorders such as allergies, ear infections, hot spots, bloat, and cancers. Just my theory.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not as familiar with bloodlines, but if the drivier dogs are under more stress and thus more prone to health problems overall, why are the show lines consistently blamed for overlooking major health issues while being criticized for a lack of drive and working ability?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Doc, your conjecture re lines & health is fascinating, to me at least. However, it requires at the very least empirical data to substantiate or be useful. No criticism meant there...& I'd love to see that kind of data & analysis.



> Quote:You cannot avoid linebreeding entirely. For starters, it is how breeds are created in the first place. And when done judiciously and in moderation, it's not a bad thing. It's all in how it's used, the dog's being linebred on, and how much.


I agree, however far too many breeders, among almost all breeds, are *not* judicious in their use of linebreeding. Nothing about that is directed at any breeder posting here. Some I admire. Others I don't know enough about to have any opinion. But in general waaay too many *good* breeders are about a narrow set of criteria, (often cosmetic), that doesn't include overall health, vigor & longevity



> Quote:Also, read Cliff's post above.


I find Cliff's posts & opinions especially thought provoking & informative. I read it, but I'm not entirely certain I understand 'backmassing'. Do I have it essentially correct in my comments, or do I need additional education regarding this?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I would say theirs is a nerve issue where the poor animal's nerves are always firing and never at rest. Like a low current of voltage running through your body all the time.

I didn't say driver dogs were more prone- just the ones that stay at a heightened state of awareness and is slow to return to it's relaxed state.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Ruby Tuesday, when I get my stimulus package from Uncle Sam, I will conduct a 10 study and collect volumes of data to substantiate my theory.







Until such time, I will pontificate my thoughts until someone proves me wrong! My cynical self will not allow me to do otherwise.









I will have to refresh myself on the "backmassing". Clif has an outstanding handle on genetics - I'm still trying to figure out cinabar eyes on fruit flies (basic genetics).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> I didn't say driver dogs were more prone- just the ones that stay at a heightened state of awareness and is slow to return to it's relaxed state.


I read...



> Quote:I think the root to poor health and temperament stems from particular bloodlines. Or more specifically, lines that exhibit over-the-top drives.


So I'm confused.

My nerviest dog happens to be my healthiest and one of the healthiest GSDs (and purebred dogs overall) I know.

Personally I think the root of both is people breeding who have no business breeding because they don't know enough about the dogs, don't care enough, or both. I think that is true of any line or type. The backmassing thing makes sense too, but in that context I think that breeding health issues causes more health issues, not that breeding drive/nerves causes health issues.


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

Excellent questions and answers. I want to try and summarize one point based on the comments above - the titles (lets say SV) on the dogs are misleading in terms of assessing the nerves? Now the question is, if a dog is titled SchH, AD, BH etc. in Germany and has a-normal or so on hips/elbows, are we going to consider that dog a good dog or not? Lets say, this is a five to six years old dog that has been pleasure to be around. At the same time, one day we look at the pedigree and see a lot of backmassing - shall we suddenly start questioning the quality of the dog? 

The second point is, it is physically impossible to attribute any issues a dog may have, either mental or physical, to genetic evolution in the given pedigree or the breeding specifically. There is no question about what science has proved about in-breeding, however, it is simply a probabilistic outcome. I think it is more related to then identified facts about the genetics of the foundation dogs - so, it makes perfect sense that certain lines are prone to issues based on what was discovered in the very old generations. But if certain lines didn't exhibit issues or trends in the older generations, and their progeny of today or recent generations has shown enough competence in terms of getting titled etc then why does it matter whether there was back-massing or not? As mentioned above, back-massing is not a coincidence. It is really a method to preserve desired characteristics. 

I don't want to digress from this thought provoking discussion but I think if the SV titled dogs are not considered to be the standard of a good dog then we need some benchmark to relate our comments to.

Finally, it is really sad that there is no empirical data that we can associate with certain lines.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I would say theirs is a nerve issue where the poor animal's nerves are always firing and never at rest. Like a low current of voltage running through your body all the time.


I find this idea intriguing. Years back my daughter & I took an injured wild rabbit to the vet. He was able to do the necessary surgical repairs & put us in touch with a wildlife re-habber b/c b/w Huskies, Wolfhounds & (very bad!)cats my household wasn't suited to keeping him while he recovered/matured. The rehabber told me handling wild rabbits can kill them! Their chief survival mechanisms are proliferation & being hyper alert & instantly reactive. The direct stimulation of human handling overloads the CNS & will kill 'em within a day or 2. This is specific to wild rabbits. Domestic rabbits have been bred away from it. Is there something similar going on, though to a much lesser extent, with forever anxious dogs (or cats or people)? Get that grant, Doc!!!



> Quote:My nerviest dog happens to be my healthiest and one of the healthiest GSDs (and purebred dogs overall) I know.


It's not a good idea to draw conclusions from a very small sample, in this case a sample of 1. IF study/analysis of this is ever pursued, rigorous definitions of drives & nerves will need to be established. The drives/nerves of individual dogs will need to be consistently, accurately assessed/assigned.



> Quoteersonally I think the root of both is people breeding who have no business breeding because they don't know enough about the dogs, don't care enough, or both.


Absolutely. What's especially tragic is when they masquerade as 'good, caring, concerned breeders'. 



> Quote:Finally, it is really sad that there is no empirical data that we can associate with certain lines.


Yes, it is. The AKC could so easily establish a truly useful data base that made registering pets a worthwhile endeavor.


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## JudyK (Dec 12, 2008)

Excellent discussion. As a small breeder I am wrestling with many of these issues and the stance I am taking right now is that I am leaning toward less linebreeding and seeking out new blood or possibly outcrosses for breeding partners. I breed for health as a number 1 priority and in doing so I have found that my pups are healthier with less vaccines and no combo vaccines which seem to confuse the immune system. I'm not a vet but from what I have read the value in an immune response is that it rises to meet an alien toxin and presents a defense to that resulting in protection against that particular disease. When you use a combo vaccine you confuse the immune system because it doesn't know what it's suppose to rally against. I know that since I have been vaccinating my puppies against parvo and distemper separately I have had no allergies and the pups are much healthier adults with no hot spots ear infections or any of the common maladies that seem to plague this breed. I may be way off base in my thinking but so far it's working. I also raw feed by the way. Anyone have any thoughts on this???


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Well you know I will always have a thought! I think you are right. The pups natural defenses to combat the injection to fight off the disease is limited. The problem, especially in the very young pup is his "system" has been under stress since the time he came down the shut. What little immunity that his body has been able to produce is used up rather quickly and therefore, his natural ability to fight off invasions is depleted. I think this is case even under the best whelping practices. I would agree with Belfield and others that new borns should receive supplements a few hours after birth - particularly vitamin C. The more a breeder can do to increase and maintain vitamin and mineral levels in a pup will result in a healthier animal.

I agree Ruby Tuesday, there needs to be a standard definition of "nerves" and "drives". I submit that in many cases "drive" is a result of "nerves" and "nerves" can result from a malfunctioning "off switch" which is related to "drives". How often is this the case? Who knows? There is so little we understand about the role of the central nervous system of a dog and where and how "drive" is created. I again postulate that certain blood types that are/were high drive and or exhibit/exhibited nerviousness increases the probability of more physical and mental challenges.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Among those that train using drive, I think the understanding is relatively universal. It seems most often misunderstood or misinterpreted by those that don't actually use that characteristic of the dog for training and development. I think Chris and others have made the distinction between drive and nerves in several recent threads, including here. I personally don't agree that weaker nerves and higher drive are so closely related. How would you account for dogs that have a lot of one and none of the other? And how would you account for all the very healthy dogs with long lives that have one or the other?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Perhaps bloodlines play a role. Perhaps German shepherd line plays a role i.e. Thurgian, Wurtemberger, Schawbian. And for those who train using drive, maybe the explanation and definition of drive is not registering with the rest of the German shepherd crowd.

I don't think you can really discuss linebreeding, backmassing, bloodlines, outcrosses, inbreeding unless you take time to study the historical foundations of the breed.

Read how Max describes Horand and draw your own conclusions. Ask yourself why he moved to Barvaria and crossed his Thuringian type German shepherd with Schabian and Wurtemberger lines. Could be for "proper drive"? Or was it to breed better health into his line? Or perhaps longevity?

Did you ever think that that your one healthy German shepherd may contain "good" genes from a healthy bloodline? Plus have the correct drive from another bloodline? Or is it just luck that your German shepherd has it all? In your case, perhaps there is not an association between drive and health or nerves and health but how do you know? Thats the bigger picture. In nature, there will always be exception - nothing is 100%. It's not black and white, the gray area holds the mysteries that someone has to explore.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote: think Chris and others have made the distinction between drive and nerves in several recent threads, including here.


Yes & made it beautifully, however I still think the individual assessment is often subjective & not readily 'quantified'. For one example, we frequently see this with hip evaluations. This measurement of character is even less easily standardized.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI'm not as familiar with bloodlines, but if the drivier dogs are under more stress and thus more prone to health problems overall, why are the show lines consistently blamed for overlooking major health issues while being criticized for a lack of drive and working ability?


The off switch. Some very high drive dogs also have excellent off switches. Some do not. (I've found that Lierberg lines, and the DDR lines w/heavy Lierberg are fantastic on this respect. Fero lines are not.)
In theory, even the driviest dog can switch off the stress when it is not working and in a calm environment.
Also, when a dog is in drive does not necessarily mean it is being stressed. My high prey drive dog when being able to exercise his prey drive looks like he is under no stress at all.
The control work that is simultaneously applied while a dog is high in drive probably is the cause of the stress. 
Again, nerves play a role here because solid nerves should allow a dog to cap or modulate its drives to the necessary level, either on its own or with the handler's help or insistence with less stress.
When the nerves do not allow a dog to modulate its drive on its own but the modulation is coming from an external source, eg, e-collar, that probably increases the stress.
It would be interesting to "wire" a dog while it is working in drive, and under different scenarios of control work, to measure heartbeat, adrenaline levels, other indicators of stress, etc.
Please add it to your research doc. LOL


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday
> 
> 
> > Quote: think Chris and others have made the distinction between drive and nerves in several recent threads, including here.
> ...


Well everything is always going to be subjective to an extent but I think the more experience people have actually focusing on this aspect of the dog, the more accurate the assessment is going to be. For example I've had people tell me their dog has "high drive" and it will not even look at a tennis ball or heel three steps for anything. People who aren't as familiar with the concept of drive too often mistake it for high energy or nerves.

Since Doc brought it up I'll leave it up to him to clarify.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I like the idea Ocean. I'm making notes .... Nice job on the "off switch" explanation. 

Lierberg lines have good off switches - very interesting. (Make note to trace back the Lierberg bloodlines - are they Thurgian, Wurtemberger, Schawbian?).


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Since you are an expert on the subject Leis, I will yield my 5 minutes to the young lady from MI.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doc you will find good working line breeders know a lot about the off switch, much much more than it appears you are giving them credit for. The ones I talked to when I considered getting a working line pup definitely made it a priority. No hectic, nervy, spooky, out of control dogs, but dogs that are sound in every aspect of work and home life. This is why anytime I look for a dog I want to get one from someone that actually lived with that dog and trained that dog, not the breeders that import or lease, breed, breed, breed, and then sell the "retired" breeding dogs and rarely train or compete with their own dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocSince you are an expert on the subject Leis, I will yield my 5 minutes to the young lady from MI.


I'm no expert I'm just not sure what your original comment meant, since you made a comment about drive leading to health issues, but then said you weren't talking about drivey dogs. I guess I'm confused as to how drive contributes to genetic health issues and how you have seen this play out. I think everyone will agree that a nervy dog with no offswitch is unsound and at the very least is not a great mental state for a dog to be living in.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I haven't said anything about a breeder's knowledge concerning the "off-switch". I do think some breeders produce dogs that have faulity switches and that there are lines that have a history of poor "off switches" yet they are still being bred.

I yielded my time so you could clearly explain to me and others the difference in nerves and drive based upon your implication that I didn't speak or understand the universal definitions of the "working line" camp.

Let me see if I get it. Much like a car that you put into "drive", some "working line" German shepherds can be put into "drive" and then go into neutral or park via the off switch if it is working properly. Likewise, just like my crazy Aunt Zula who has had numerous "nervous breakdowns", some German shepherds have "nerve issues" and they may or may not be able to go into "drive" and may or may not have a functional off switch..

Am I close? If not, the floor is all yours.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:Well everything is always going to be subjective to an extent but I think the more experience people have actually focusing on this aspect of the dog, the more accurate the assessment is going to be.


Some things are overwhelmingly objective, but assessments of character & behavior simply aren't. I'd expect both greater accuracy & consistency from experienced trainers & breeders. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there doesn't seem to be a rigorous, standardized definition of *exactly* what is meant by drives & nerves. There seems to be a global understanding among schutzhund enthusiasts & working line breeders of what is meant by the terms, but I'd prefer something harder, more definite, less squishy...something b&w & very precise. 



> Quoteoc you will find good working line breeders know a lot about the off switch, much much more than it appears you are giving them credit for.


Emphasis s/b placed on 'good'...As with any lines/breeders not all are good, or even knowledgeable. There are breeders, trainers & sports enthusiasts that don't know drives from nerves from energetic. The posts I've seen on this from Cliff, Chris & Lee have been among the most educational & thought provoking on this board, IMO. When they're clarifying the differences b/w high drives vs high energy, or drives vs nerves, it's not always neophyte owners or pet people they're addressing. Even some of the people involved with working lines seem to get 'em confused at times.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Doc, many here are in the 'working line camp' but issues of nerves & drive are global concerns with all lines of GSDs to some extent, or should be.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Let me see if I get it. Much like a car that you put into "drive", some "working line" German shepherds can be put into "drive" and then go into neutral or park via the off switch if it is working properly. Likewise, just like my crazy Aunt Zula who has had numerous "nervous breakdowns", some German shepherds have "nerve issues" and they may or may not be able to go into "drive" and may or may not have a functional off switch..


Sounds good to me, except the "working line" bit. It can be applied to any dog, any breed. Drive isn't something that only working line people should be concerned with, IMO.

Now, how does it apply to poor hips, elbows, pannus, EPI...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there doesn't seem to be a rigorous, standardized definition of *exactly* what is meant by drives & nerves. There seems to be a global understanding among schutzhund enthusiasts & working line breeders of what is meant by the terms, but I'd prefer something harder, more definite, less squishy...something b&w & very precise.


I would too, but I think therein lies part of the problem - some just aren't as concerned about them either way. In general, I think the working line camp makes it more of a priority, so they set the bar, so to speak.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Well, I think this is always a good place to start when it comes to understanding drive, nerve, etc....

Elements of Temperament by Joy Tiz


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Doc, I will add another dog to the list who has weak nerves, yes weak nerves, she has major sound sensitivity problems. But health wise she is one of the top two in my house. She can be a quivering mass of dog for hours because of thunderstorms, but never has had a loose stool becuase of it. She has no allergies, cast iron gut, good ball drive and good focus. Just some place her poor brain is misifiring on noise. 

My lower drive dogs have more health problems, from food issues that I can only feed home cooked or one specific kibble, to allergies and pancreatitis and joint problems on both of these dogs.

Chris, I would be more concerned about some other factors other than Ol'Roy dog food. What about Chque (sp) drops that some breeders use to use to stop heat cycles in bitch's and Steroid shots being used on males to give them a heavier muscle. Then there could be the whole host of enviornmental factors because maybe dogs systems are more sensitive than humans. There are area's in the US that have higher cancer rates, higher breathing disorders in humans, maybe these play a factor also.

Lies, I will never rely on titles anymore. I have know of really good trainers that have taken nerve bag dogs to SchH 3's, I have seen nice dogs turned into crap because of training that wasn't suited to the dog. So titles aren't 100% perfect. Not picking on you because I know that you are really enjoying working with your dogs and that is great. But to say that a dog that has a title is better than one that doesn't have a title doesn't always wash with me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesday There are breeders, trainers & sports enthusiasts that don't know drives from nerves from energetic. The posts I've seen on this from Cliff, Chris & Lee have been among the most educational & thought provoking on this board, IMO. When they're clarifying the differences b/w high drives vs high energy, or drives vs nerves, it's not always neophyte owners or pet people they're addressing. Even some of the people involved with working lines seem to get 'em confused at times.


I'd say for the most part such folk, including those involved in working lines, SchH, etc... who don't understand these things do fall into the "neophyte" category somewhat, because these are very core aspects of temperament that need to be understood, and typically are understood quite well by those who have experience working with such dogs. On the flip side, it is very difficult to understand and can be quite confusing to those who don't have experience working with drives and utilizing them in training and seeing a dog's nerves pressured and how that impacts it's behavior an drive control. Most people who actively train dogs in venues that involve drives and test nerves develop a pretty good understanding of at least the basic vocabulary and how to differentiate between drive and nerve. Someone who hasn't had that experience, even if they've been "in the breed" X number of eons very often won't because they are things that need to be seen and experienced to really be understood.

When I see things like "high drive dogs don't make good pets" or "they can't be calm and quiet and are always nervous and hyperactive" or "they have to be kept busy at all times or they'll destroy your house and yard" and similar statements pandered about on websites and message boards or in conversation, it tells me that no matter how much experience that person has with dogs as a whole, how many litters they've bred, how much they've studied pedigrees and bloodlines, they are either A) intentionally passing along misinformation (probably to promote their own type and make a sale) or B) have a severe lack of understanding of some of the most important and fundamental aspects of temperament.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chris, your last post should be framed. Exactly my sentiments.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tigerto say that a dog that has a title is better than one that doesn't have a title doesn't always wash with me.


I'll agree with that. But I'll also add that the person who trained the dog to a title knows a whole lot more about that dog than the person who never trained and titled knows about theirs. And IMO more than proving the dog's ability, the greatest value in titles is what is learned about the dog along the way by the person who spent the time with that dog getting to that title.

So while a title doesn't make for a better dog, it is pretty good at determining who knows what they're talking about when they say their dog is X, Y and Z and who is for the most part just guessing and assuming but can't base those claims on any proof or actual experience with the dog. 

This is why if I had to choose between a pup from untitled parents, bred by someone with a good understanding of temperament and experience working dogs and who had worked with those dogs, and someone who buys or leases uber-titled dogs but never works them, I'd choose the former any day. While titles are nice, it's the work with the dog that goes into them, and what is learned about the dog in that process, that is the most important.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I know Chris, I just don't look at titles the same way I use to. Now I want to know who trained and titled the dog. 

I don't title my dogs, but I can tell you which dogs are gun shot safe, which ones have issues with unusual footing, which ones are good trackers, who has the better focus, and a few other things that come from just me living with my dogs. 

Maybe, If I ever decide to breed then I will do some trails or shows, right now traveling 2+ hours one way isn't doable, too many dogs and no help.


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## sungmina (Jul 28, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DocI think the root to poor health and temperament stems from particular bloodlines. Or more specifically, lines that exhibit over-the-top drives. My thoughts are these types of dogs are "wired" at a different level and therefore their body is always under some sort of stress. Stress leads to depletion of vitamins and minerals which leads to poor health which affects temperament that results in allergies, cancer, bloat, pancreatic disorders, etc...


How do you feel about the Belgian Malinois? Really as far as "drives" and "nerves" I think they can easily top a working line shepherd in most cases. They are so intense they will spin, shake, and chatter. Yet, many will agree that the Malinois overall is a much healthier breed than the German Shepherd.

So is it really drives and nerves that cause dogs to be unhealthy? Or is it inbreeding, or the unwise breeding of unhealthy, uncertified animals?

If drives and nerves caused dogs to be so unhealthy, I doubt we would see so many perfectly healthy, long-lived, Malinois...


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I find this topic to be absolutely facinating. When I started training Lucy I wanted to understand about drive and nerve and the best, easiest explanation to follow was found or linked to on the Wildhaus Kennels website. Thanks, Chris. I would read, watch training, ask questions, read some more, train some more, ask more questions.....It gave me a foundation to begin to understand what the right questions were, and to understand why the training was done in the way it is, what differences there are between individual dogs, and how those differences impact training. Without that information I think I would have had a very hard time assessing the trainer.
These discussions are awesome.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Great point Jkim, ultimately it still comes down to genetics as primary reason, as these other reasons are reasons that can hold true for "specific instances" and isolated examples. The genetic reason while also being empirically proven (saturated inbreeding over long periods leading to mental/health defects), the genetic answer is the reason that this deterioration of these facets of the showlines today has continued to pass from generation to generation. Also, how can you account for the reason that when the showlines in Germany had Blacks, Sables, and Bi-colors in the winning ribbons and thus popular breeding position, that the temperament and the functionality of the breed was not questioned by anyone. Too much coincidence people!. If you want to improve the showlines of today then you have to genetically reverse the practices and pleasing trends of the showworld. This means color and angulation, and sidegait, has to be "less important" than all colors, functional gait, and harder compact dogs. Right now the showworld won't touch these type of dogs because it will dilute color(bl and rd), angulation,(God forbid the dog can't walk into a perfect stance), and sidegait,(that erroneous tale that this sidegait allows a dog to herd all day.....did we forget that without the character and strength of temperament and drive, the dog won't sidegait all day anyway once it get in inclimate weather.) Soooooo, these other external reasons will allow individual instances of success to crop up to make a case, but if your case is made on the individual case then you make "my" case.
The only plausible reason for the continued decline of the showline dogs with all the hip certs, and elbow certs., and Sch titles, and clapping of the showgcrowd,(I guess that helps the breed), in terms of being a great noble working dog is GENETICS.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"I'll agree with that. But I'll also add that the person who trained the dog to a title knows a whole lot more about that dog than the person who never trained and titled knows about theirs. And IMO more than proving the dog's ability, the greatest value in titles is what is learned about the dog along the way by the person who spent the time with that dog getting to that title."

Good points. In addition, not only being able to really understand your dog (not just the buzz word like biddable, civil, high drive, etc, but really understand what you are seeing), but be brutally honest about the good points and points to be improved and whether or not this is a dog for breeding.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> 
> Lies, I will never rely on titles anymore. I have know of really good trainers that have taken nerve bag dogs to SchH 3's, I have seen nice dogs turned into crap because of training that wasn't suited to the dog. So titles aren't 100% perfect. Not picking on you because I know that you are really enjoying working with your dogs and that is great. But to say that a dog that has a title is better than one that doesn't have a title doesn't always wash with me.


It's not the titles themselves that concern me, but a breeder breeding dogs with absolutely no titles whatsoever, no evidence that the dogs are being trained or worked in any fashion. How can a person possibly understand their dog enough to decide whether it's breedworthy if it's only ever been a house pet? I guess if it's clear the breeding program is for house pets, that's fine (I don't agree, but maybe that's what some people want) but too many times these are the dogs I see advertised on breeders' sites as being suitable for SAR, K9 work, etc. when there is absolutely no evidence of any dogs in the program excelling in these activities. I am more concerned with titles in the context of the breeder than the dog. At some level I guess it's just a necessary evil. Kind of like for my job I do technical work and in order to get a raise and promotion I had to pass this test. Now my job didn't change and my skills didn't change from the day before I passed the test to the day after, and I didn't really want to take the dumb thing but it did expose where I needed more work and where I was doing really well. 

As far as me buying dogs, I need to see at least one of the parents work and see how they interact when they are not training/working. Titles can be a starting point but that's not how I ultimately decide which pup I want. But you can bet I won't be looking at breeders that don't do anything with their dogs. I don't care how long someone has been breeding or this line or that line, I need to know about *that* dog standing in front of me.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Believe it or not, there are many people that love German shepherds and could care less about titles. I know it will come as a surprise to some in here. If you only interact/study Sch., nerve, drive, etc. then that's fine. But to imply that you can not learn about your dog unless you and your dog go through some prescribed man-made circus to prove drive, nerves, and character is rubbish and hog wash. Did you or do you put your significant other through some training before you learned about him/her?

If your thrill is to train and see your dog perform on the field in shows, thats fine. But I will say, there are significant number of people all over this world that could care less about that. And beleive it or not, they want a German shepherd for their pet, companion, and protector. 

And if you discount a breeders knowledge, understanding of bloodlines, and 30, 40 or even 50 years of experience with German shepherds that may or may not be titled, then it would appear that the only thing that you are interested in is the functionality of the dog to do what you want to do. And the only way to gain any knowledge of your dog is to go through extensive training with him/her? 

I can see that I am much to old to wager in this "new" age of German shepherds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc it would appear that the only thing that you are interested in is the functionality of the dog to do what you want to do. And the only way to gain any knowledge of your dog is to go through extensive training with him/her?


To answer in a roundabout way, I do hold breeders to a higher standard than pet owners, yes. If there are some breeders filling the niche of breeding "pet" dogs, I guess that's fine with me, but then advertise the dogs for what they are. So many times I go to a breeder's site to learn about their program and see their dogs advertised as suitable for K9 work, SAR, agility, etc but then when looking into these dogs and the breeding program there is no evidence of dogs having excelled in these activities in the past 10 years or so. And then breeders wonder why the public is so naive and misinformed when looking for a purebred dog.

Didn't you say earlier that you believe the GSD should be a versatile dog that can do well at many things? Then why be so critical of people who seek to do just that....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocBelieve it or not, there are many people that love German shepherds and could care less about titles.


Well, obviously since puppymills and BYBs are still thriving.

But I do think it fair to say most people DO care about temperament. They are just ignorant of what it takes to really assess and prove temperament.



> Originally Posted By: DocI know it will come as a surprise to some in here. If you only interact/study Sch., nerve, drive, etc. then that's fine. But to imply that you can not learn about your dog unless you and your dog go through some prescribed man-made circus to prove drive, nerves, and character is rubbish and hog wash.


I've always found it ironic and very telling that those who possess this opinion are those who have never bothered to participate in any sort of "circus", whereas interestingly enough those who do participate don't hold this opinion. I find that simple fact sure explains a lot.

Could that difference in opinion be due to the fact that those who have done it have now seen first hand that it really does make a difference? I would think so. Especially having known many who started out thinking it didn't matter, but after a few years of circus training did a complete 180 in their opinion, having now found out that reality certainly didn't support their earlier opinion.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Where am I being critical? I am most concerned about the one dimensional German shepherd that can do one specialized activity. That, in my mind, is not versatility and not what this breed was intended to do. 

I will not go into my thoughts on the various requirements for certain titles. I think they were designed for a certain "type" of dog and restricts the practical usability and versatility of the breeds.

If we hold Horand as the "German shepherd" it has to be noted that he never competed or received any titles. Which, based on some people's argument, means that the entire German shepherd breed is built upon a dog that was never tested or understood. It was Max's unyielding arrogance that ensured his place in history. And to listen to some people today, there isn't much difference in the tune they are singing and the one that Max sang.

I am not being critical, just stating the facts.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DocI am most concerned about the one dimensional German shepherd that can do one specialized activity. That, in my mind, is not versatility and not what this breed was intended to do.


So police K9s, bomb sniffing/sweep dogs, arson detection dogs, leader of the blind dogs, human remains detection dogs, or sheep herding dogs are not a good representatives of the breed because they are all specialized? 

What combination of activities do you prefer to do with your dogs?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocWhere am I being critical? I am most concerned about the one dimensional German shepherd that can do one specialized activity. That, in my mind, is not versatility and not what this breed was intended to do.


Please define what you consider "one specialized activity". It seems your biggest beef is with SchH, probably since it is considered the "grandaddy of them all" of titles by many, it having been the one that was created specifically for the GSD breed in order to test those things considered important for the GSD breed. Though having trained and titled a few dogs in it over the years, I find it very hard to understand how anyone who knows anything about it could consider it "one specialized activity".

Tracking, obedience, protection... there's 3 very different disciplines right there, and each requires and tests different temperament traits and physical abilities.

Then add in that the majority of folks in SchH also live with their dogs in the house as pets and companions, so the dogs have certainly proven their ability there too, at least to the point that "pet breeders" require their dogs to. And a good many also do additional training/titles with their dogs in other venues as well.

Seems pretty versitle and far from specialized to me.











> Originally Posted By: Doc
> I will not go into my thoughts on the various requirements for certain titles. I think they were designed for a certain "type" of dog and restricts the practical usability and versatility of the breeds.


Would love to hear more about the thinking behind this opinion too, considering I can't fathom how something that requires a dog to be versatile inhibits versatility?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I think hobby breeders should be included in your list of BYB and Puppy Mills if you are going to label everybody something. How are they any different? 

Many don't participate in the circus because they see no use in it. It's like saying someone can't dance because they didn't take dance lessons. Or you can't play golf because you never had been taught. It's a flaw in logic.

And what makes those that do participate "better" and more knowledgeable than those that don't? Because they drank the Kool-Aid? I think you are way off base and your generalized comments do not hold true.

I guess the next step is form a Breed Patrol and eliminate any German shepherd that was purchased by a home owner or handicapped person for service, companionship or protection.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> I guess the next step is form a Breed Patrol and eliminate any German shepherd that was purchased by a home owner or handicapped person for service, companionship or protection.


So these are specialized tasks that are acceptable to you?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocI think hobby breeders should be included in your list of BYB and Puppy Mills if you are going to label everybody something. How are they any different?


Depends on the individual's definition of hobby breeder. In my personal definition, they are quite different.



> Originally Posted By: Doc
> Many don't participate in the circus because they see no use in it. It's like saying someone can't dance because they didn't take dance lessons. Or you can't play golf because you never had been taught. It's a flaw in logic.


No, it's more like saying "well, I don't know if he can dance because he's never tried" or "I don't know if he can play golf because he's never tried". And if the blueprint of what I'm looking for is "can dance and play golf" I'd sure be better served looking to dancers and golfers to produce that, rather than those who have never bothered to try so don't know if they can do it or not.

Whereas if they did take those classes, I'd #1 know they'd done it, which leads to the more valuable #2 I know there'd be someone out there (probably several someones) who could give me an honest, objective opinion on whether they were any good at dance or golf, and since some of those people would be highly experienced (their instructor for example) in dance or golf the assessments of those people would actually mean something.

How can someone who's never been on a dance floor or picked up a putter honestly and legitimately say "oh yeah, I can do that!" ?



> Originally Posted By: Doc
> And what makes those that do participate "better" and more knowledgeable than those that don't?


Never said better. More knowledgeable, yes. To think the golf competitor or dance instructor, or someone who's studied and participated in them for years, has more knowledge about those things than the general person who's never participated, and at most has maybe watched Tiger Woods or Dancing with the Stars on TV.. yeah, I think that's a pretty sound logical assumption.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Doc Did you or do you put your significant other through some training before you learned about him/her?


Funny you brought that up. Interestingly my husband of 11 years and I just went through something very stressful together, a life threatening health situation, and because of that stress I DID learn things about him that I would not have in ordinary circumstances.
I think that is the point of working a dog in this way, to assess what they are really made of in ways you couldn't otherwise.
I found out my husband has rock solid character to a greater degree than I'd known but...
I had already used him for breeding


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL Lisa

To that point, yes I think we all do put our mates through that to an extent, otherwise anyone would just be marrying anyone willy-nilly (sort of like pairing off dogs for no real reason). I personally refused to get married before I finished my education and had a career or at least a good idea of what that would be. I would not have married just anyone who had no aspirations as far as education or career. There are also certain elements of "temperament" I find unacceptable in some men and would not consider dating or marrying them.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Doc, Doc,Doc, You are all over the board......Quote,"It would appear to me that all you are concerned with is the functionality of the dog to do what you want",............if what you "want" means to breed German Shepherds that are functionable in the many avenues that made this dog great then what else is there. Functionality is the "Keystone" of German Shepherd breeding. Look I am just as familar as you with the history and the origin of the breed, but the majestry of the breed isn't Horand, Beowolf, Pilot,or any individual dog. The legacy of the breed is the history of the greatness of this breed in military, human services, police, SAR, vocation(herding and seeing-eye), and family protector. FUNCTIONALITY !! I haven't weighed in on the titles theme though I have titled a dog and do look at them in the context of level they were acquired and progeny also titled. But, I breed to produce police service dogs yet most of my dogs go to families as rightfully they should. The point is breed functionality is the object of breeding and if you are not breeding dogs that before you breed the litter, you already know these pups will not be able to do "any"" of these services....then you are the a BYB period. That's not to say that all the pups in the litter will be police dogs....not saying that,...it is to say that if you are breeding dogs that you "know" can't produce "consistently" these functional dogs then you are helping ruin the breed. You don't have to breed titled dogs to do this, but I would never, never, never, breed a dog that hasn't demonstrated to me that it could cut the mustard off of my property. Otherwise, we are going down the slope of kennel blindness(which I have seen cases that people were hallucinating about what their dog could do), and these unworthy dogs(functionally) are being bred. Actually, to me and the Capt. functinality is the best barometer of anatomy anyway, but that's another story. Doc, not sure what you are trying to say.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Quoteid you or do you put your significant other through some training before you learned about him/her?


Sure. We call it dating


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

There are a number of takeaways from this discussion - the one below is really one of the simplest and most valuable, at least for me.


> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> Wisc.Tiger said:
> ...


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## Mozart396 (May 11, 2009)

I'm new to this board and I find this discussion interesting. I am currently in the search for a new family member. I have no interest in showing, breeding, or any other type of titling. What I do want is a very healthy dog with low to medium drive. His main jobs is to take 2 walks a day (one with mommy and one with my 4 yr old), play ball and rough house in the yard. The rest of the time, he can couch potato (or follow mommy around and think of pranks like our last dog). The most important attribute is the level, sweet temperament.

How do I go about looking for a puppy? I look at lines and titles in the hopes that my odds of getting a healthy dog is increased. I presume that the health of the dog is genetically linked somehow. I realize it is no guarantee (I have a degree in biology) as genetics is a complex process with wild cards thrown in for the evolutionary mix.

But how do I go about determining the mental health of the puppy? I want to improve my odds, are there bloodlines or certain types of dogs that I need to research? Are there lines that are more "stable" than others? Do certified good canine citizens breed the same? Or do I just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn't come up snake eyes?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Mozart396
> 
> But how do I go about determining the mental health of the puppy? I want to improve my odds, are there bloodlines or certain types of dogs that I need to research? Are there lines that are more "stable" than others? Do certified good canine citizens breed the same? Or do I just have to roll the dice and hope it doesn't come up snake eyes?


Number one I'd say look at the dog's parents. There should be at least one parent on site for you to see and interact with. Perhaps the breeder has held back some progeny, so you can meet siblings of your future dog and see what you think. There are stable and unstable dogs in every line, at least as far as what you are looking for. The CGC isn't a good indicator of temperament or stability. It's sort of like an absolute bare minimum standard, and I have seen dogs with temperament issues pass (and my own dog who can be somewhat nervy has passed three times, as well as the ATTS temperament test and the TDI evaluation). It's not a bad thing to have as it does require a decent amount of training and manners (at least compared to what the majority of pet owners do), but I wouldn't throw a lot of weight into it as far as evaluating the stability of the dog.

I really think the main thing is to focus on the dogs - go meet them and talk to people who know the breeder and have seen the dogs training or interacted with them.

It's always a dice roll but we do what we can to increase the odds in our favor.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Mozart396I'm new to this board and I find this discussion interesting. I am currently in the search for a new family member. I have no interest in showing, breeding, or any other type of titling. What I do want is a very healthy dog with low to medium drive. His main jobs is to take 2 walks a day (one with mommy and one with my 4 yr old), play ball and rough house in the yard. The rest of the time, he can couch potato (or follow mommy around and think of pranks like our last dog). The most important attribute is the level, sweet temperament.


Perhaps the wrong sub-forum to give this answer, but have you considered rescue? A good GSD rescue organization could match you with a dog that has the temperament you are looking for. With a 4 year old, getting a dog older than an 8-week old puppy might be a good idea. The only thing you wouldn't know about is the medical history of the parents. But the hips/health guarantee of a dog from a breeder isn't that the dog has no health issues--it is that they will take the dog back for an exchange if such issues develop. Would you want to do that with a family pet?

I am somewhat in the opposite situation from you. I have always had rescued dogs. But as I get more interested in dog training, the idea of Schutzhund or Versatility is intriguing to me. If I have such a specific goal in mind, then it makes sense to find a breeder who can match me with a puppy that I can train from day 1 (OK from day 8 to 10 weeks) and that fits my experience level as a trainer. That situation makes sense to me. But for a lovable, loyal companion, I'd definitely look at rescue again.


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## Mozart396 (May 11, 2009)

We have considered rescue. There are several downsides - one mentioned is that I don't know the medical history of the dog, nor do I know how that dog was treated. The biggest downside (and this is selfish of me) is that getting an older dog just means that I have less time with him. We had Mozart for 13 years and that was not enough time. Getting an older dog and having him for 5 or so years is just too hard emotionally. 

You are absolutely correct that the guarantee is meaningless to me. I would not take a pet back for any reason. The only reason I am searching for a breeder is that hopefully the genetics of the dog will improve the odds of his health. It is still rolling dice, but hopefully the dice is loaded in my favor.


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## Colorado (Nov 25, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Mozart396Getting an older dog and having him for 5 or so years is just too hard emotionally.


I wouldn't feel bad about thinking this way. I have the same issue. I know the senior rescues need a good home and if I had 4+ dogs, adding a senior wouldn't be a concern. However since I am a 1 or 2 dog person, I agree with you.

That said, there are a lot of 8-12 month old pups that end up in rescue.









Please don't feel like I'm preaching at you. I totally understand your desire for a healthy dog. I just read you were looking for a "couch potato / prankster" and couldn't imagine a breeder that specializes in that. And if you find one that does...run far far away.


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