# What does it take to be a Seiger World Champion



## Anthony8858

Below is my dog's sire. He is the 2011 World Seiger Champion.

FWIW...Since I have no intention of showing or competing, it doesn't matter what his accomplishments are.

However, I'd like to know a bit more about what it was that made him a Seiger Champion?

Here's a picture of her dad: I think's it's a bit prior to the Seiger.


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## Packen

Typically it requires running in circles with weird geometry and minimal working ability.


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## Emoore

Packen said:


> Typically it requires running in circles with weird geometry and minimal working ability.


Edited to say you do have to have an SchHIII to be sieger.


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## Lucy Dog

And here we go again...


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## selzer

Packen said:


> Typically it requires running in circles with weird geometry and minimal working ability.


What a completely rude and obnoxious comment. The guy has a dog out of the World Sieger, and you have to diss it. Sounds like jealousy, immaturity, and ignorance.

A world sieger has to: 

1. get the top rating in a class of maybe 600+ dogs, he beat out all of them, at the Sieger show (happens once a year in Germany).

2. at the show pass the protection phase.

3. have passing hips, elbows, be DNA's, be breed survey'd, conform to the standard.

4. have a schutzhund III. 

5. pass the endurance test ad

6. run around that ring for hours with no sign of tiring.

7. generally they have to produce a progeny group as well.

8. I think they have to also run around in the ring off lead with their owners among a good number of other mature intact males, so if they are dog aggressive, their obedience has to be better than and reactiveness.


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## onyx'girl

Takes some big money to campaign your dog as well...can't do it on pocket change.


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## RocketDog

Which Sieger? USA (and there are a couple, right) or THE German one?


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## selzer

The World Sieger would be the one in Germany.


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## selzer

My girl was bred to Remo, for her first litter, before I got her. He's a nice dog.

This picture shows a little better top line/stack I think:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=575327


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## Anthony8858

selzer said:


> My girl was bred to Remo, for her first litter, before I got her. He's a nice dog.
> 
> This picture shows a little better top line/stack I think:
> VA1 Remo vom Fichtenschlag - German Shepherd Dog


Well, I guess you nailed this one.
Remo vom Fichtenschlag is her sire.

Here's Kira's pedigree:
IKira Von Wilhendorf - German Shepherd Dog


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## Anthony8858

selzer said:


> What a completely rude and obnoxious comment. The guy has a dog out of the World Sieger, and you have to diss it. Sounds like jealousy, immaturity, and ignorance.
> 
> A world sieger has to:
> 
> 1. get the top rating in a class of maybe 600+ dogs, he beat out all of them, at the Sieger show (happens once a year in Germany).
> 
> 2. at the show pass the protection phase.
> 
> 3. have passing hips, elbows, be DNA's, be breed survey'd, conform to the standard.
> 
> 4. have a schutzhund III.
> 
> 5. pass the endurance test ad
> 
> 6. run around that ring for hours with no sign of tiring.
> 
> 7. generally they have to produce a progeny group as well.
> 
> 8. I think they have to also run around in the ring off lead with their owners among a good number of other mature intact males, so if they are dog aggressive, their obedience has to be better than and reactiveness.



Wow. Quite a list. This is interesting.


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## selzer

It's a nice pedigree of a West German Show line bitch. She is beautiful by the way.


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## CeCe

Congratulations on having the daughter of a sieger. Her dad is stunning-are you sure you don't want to show her? She is so beautiful and she seems to have a good obedience foundation from what I've seen on your other posts.


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## msvette2u

CeCe said:


> Congratulations on having the daughter of a sieger. Her dad is stunning-are you sure you don't want to show her? She is so beautiful and she seems to have a good obedience foundation from what I've seen on your other posts.


She is lovely and so is her dad. Don't let petty snotty comments get you down (seems like you didn't so good on you


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## LARHAGE

Anthony, your dog is one of my favorites on the board, she is absolutely gorgeous and I would love to have one exactly like her!!


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## wolfstraum

I thought the comment was actually pretty funny!!!! 

Besides all the basic requirements, it takes alot of campaigning and being connected and in the right clique to make Sieger.....there are always a dozen contenders (more or less) and it comes down to politics as to who is THE Sieger - often the better producers are not the top winners - not just in WGSL, but in WL and horses as well....many top top racehorses are duds at stud (Secretariat and Spectacular Bid immediately come to mind!!!) while animals who did not do as well competitively are much better as producers....same with breeding a top pair of animals....no guarantee that you will get a top winner.

However, the top winners usually do nicely as producers and for a companion dog, you will probably get a very nice animal.

Lee


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## NancyJ

I think it is not snotty for someone to say "not my cup of tea" because there are different opinions on where the breed should be and what direction it should take. But the mother also plays a VERY important role (and genetics) in what the puppy is, too and is the one who has a significant impact on early development.


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## Emoore

jocoyn said:


> I think it is not snotty for someone to say "not my cup of tea" because there are different opinions on where the breed should be and what direction it should take.


I think it is not snotty to say something like that on a thread where we're talking bloodlines in general, the direction the breed is going, genetics, etc. On the other hand, when someone proudly posts a picture of their beloved pet and/or that pet's parent, negative comments are kind of uncalled for. He's not saying he's going to breed Kira, he's not saying show lines are good and working lines are bad. . . he's just proud of his dog and her lineage and curious about what the titles mean.

It's kinda like when a woman says, "Look at these new shoes I got, aren't they great?" and you respond with, "Eh, I don't really like them." Totally different from a general conversation about different types of shoes.


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## Courtney

LARHAGE said:


> Anthony, your dog is one of my favorites on the board, she is absolutely gorgeous and I would love to have one exactly like her!!


Agree. I look forward to seeing her pics and she's also one of my favorites on the board


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## Anthony8858

Ok guys, please allow me to clear a few things:

1) Thank you all for the kind words, and compliments. I'm here to truly learn from all of your experiences, and make owning and raising a GSD as a great companion and pet.

2) I honestly couldn't car less who Kira's parents are, or their accomplishments. When I purchased her, the breeder gave me the whole rundown about her bloodlines. My answer was... " I really don't care" I just want a stable, balanced dog, and from what I've learned to that point, a good background could increase the chances of doing just that.

3) The breeder asked if I'd be interested in showing, and training her for Shutzhund. He said he'd be willing to completely train and handle her in competition. THAT"S what raised my question about champion dogs. My breeder happens to have bred quite a few title dogs, and I was wondering what it was that made them so special.

So lets' all get along.
I didn't take the other guy's comments to heart, because the first time I watched a Sieger, there were a bunch of dogs running in circles, and I didn't have a clue, nor did it seem like an accomplishment.
But after reading a few posts, and doing my own research, I can see what was taking place in the competition.

We all have beautiful dogs, and we all love them in our own special way.


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## robinhuerta

I always love the response....*run in circles*.....very funny and very observant.

*First *to make World Sieger....a prospect has to be born from at least 3 generations of DNA certified, HD passable, Working titled & Surveyed lineage.
*Second*...it must *pass* SV certification for both hips & elbows.
*Third*....it must be shown and campaigned extensively.....which is taxing in both emotion and finances.
*Fourth*....it needs to be titled & surveyed itself.
*Fifth*.....it needs to be used for stud by numerous breeders.
*Sixth*.....it needs to produce *quality* progeny.

Next...it needs to go through process #3...again & again.
Politics, Money and Influence is also needed to gain position "within the group" of winning dogs. 

Having written that list...I will also unfortunately have to add a bit of realism......
Unless a breeder *has* the *$required$* politics, finances and influences....there is very little (slim to none) chance that even an EXCEPTIONAL dog will have a chance to enter the realm of the "winning dogs".......much less...World Sieger.


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## Anthony8858

robinhuerta said:


> I always love the response....*run in circles*.....very funny and very observant.
> 
> *First *to make World Sieger....a prospect has to be born from at least 3 generations of DNA certified, HD passable, Working titled & Surveyed lineage.
> *Second*...it must *pass* SV certification for both hips & elbows.
> *Third*....it must be shown and campaigned extensively.....which is taxing in both emotion and finances.
> *Fourth*....it needs to be titled & surveyed itself.
> *Fifth*.....it needs to be used for stud by numerous breeders.
> *Sixth*.....it needs to produce *quality* progeny.
> 
> Next...it needs to go through process #3...again & again.
> Politics, Money and Influence is also needed to gain position "within the group" of winning dogs.
> 
> Having written that list...I will also unfortunately have to add a bit of realism......
> Unless a breeder *has* the *$required$* politics, finances and influences....there is very little (slim to none) chance that even an EXCEPTIONAL dog will have a chance to enter the realm of the "winning dogs".......much less...World Sieger.


My first reaction to your reply is that it's just too bad that that's the way it works. With that, I can clearly understand why some people and certain groups could feel somewhat alienated against the fortunate winners, that may or may have not "bought" their way to the top. There are so many beautiful and very capable dogs.
All our dogs are champions.


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## qbchottu

Well...I am sure there are many capable and intelligent politicians that want to win an office seat, but like Robin said...only the ones with sufficient financial and political backing can realistically take the top spot. I think this is the same with Siegers.


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## Hillary_Plog

Packen said:


> Typically it requires running in circles with weird geometry and minimal working ability.


What a completely ignorant and uneducated response...it's comments like that which continue to proliferate and prolong the generalizations and assumptions that harbor ignorant bias within this breed. 

Fortunately, Robin and Selzer offered responses that will truely educate the readers of this forum.


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## Packen

Hillary_Plog said:


> What a completely ignorant and uneducated response...it's comments like that which continue to proliferate and prolong the generalizations and assumptions that harbor ignorant bias within this breed.
> 
> Fortunately, Robin and Selzer offered responses that will truely educate the readers of this forum.


Only seems ignorant to ignorant and uneducated people. The OP asked a question, if intention of asking a question was to read only certain types of responses then it becomes a moot question. I did not read that only a certain answer was acceptable, grow up.


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## Liesje

Robin's post is probably the only one worth reading. That list pretty much sums it up.


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## cliffson1

Robin's post is very very good because she is honest and inserted the last part which is the most important part to actually becoming Seiger. Unfortunately, too many people leave that aspect out, either out of ignorance or not willing to acknowledge this aspect. So this is the reason that the credibility is often strained with others, in different aspects of the breed. 
Just look at our political process, only the really well financed can compete at the highest level. Best candidate doesn't get there, best financed does.
Anthony I am sure you have a gorgeous dog!!


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## msvette2u

Packen said:


> I did not read that only a certain answer was acceptable, grow up.



Actually you _know_ it entails more than "running around in circles", and you sounded very bitter and petty when you answered the way you did.
But to each his own I guess.


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## msvette2u

So it takes money to grease the proverbial wheels...but I'm curious, can a crap dog whose owner is rich/affluent financially win over an awesome dog in every aspect whose owner is not so well off financially?




robinhuerta said:


> I always love the response....*run in circles*.....very funny and very observant.
> 
> *First *to make World Sieger....a prospect has to be born from at least 3 generations of DNA certified, HD passable, Working titled & Surveyed lineage.
> *Second*...it must *pass* SV certification for both hips & elbows.
> *Third*....it must be shown and campaigned extensively.....which is taxing in both emotion and finances.
> *Fourth*....it needs to be titled & surveyed itself.
> *Fifth*.....it needs to be used for stud by numerous breeders.
> *Sixth*.....it needs to produce *quality* progeny.
> 
> Next...it needs to go through process #3...again & again.
> Politics, Money and Influence is also needed to gain position "within the group" of winning dogs.
> 
> Having written that list...I will also unfortunately have to add a bit of realism......
> Unless a breeder *has* the *$required$* politics, finances and influences....there is very little (slim to none) chance that even an EXCEPTIONAL dog will have a chance to enter the realm of the "winning dogs".......much less...World Sieger.


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## martemchik

The dog wouldn't be a crap dog, but a worse dog can win because you need a lot of money to go through all those steps. If you don't have the money to go to x amount of shows or pass all the certifications, or train the dog to get its SchH 3 then you don't stand a chance. Where as an afluent owner at least has the chance to get their "worse" dog into the running.


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## Liesje

msvette2u said:


> So it takes money to grease the proverbial wheels...but I'm curious, can a crap dog whose owner is rich/affluent financially win over an awesome dog in every aspect whose owner is not so well off financially?


Look at Robin's list. A dog has to meet all the requirements listed at the top. Then and only then is it even worth pursuing, whether the dog is crap or whether the owner is poor or a billionaire. A dog that is total crap is not very likely to be getting the amounts of ring time, show wins, and showing good progeny that is required to even make a decent run at Sieger.


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## crackem

msvette2u said:


> Actually you _know_ it entails more than "running around in circles", and you sounded very bitter and petty when you answered the way you did.
> But to each his own I guess.


I think most know it entails more but the real question is "does it really mean any more" than what he said? I don't blame him/her for sounding bitter. I get that way too sometimes. Most people do when they see quality and hardwork get passed over for money and politics repeatedly.

I don't think anybody would dispute that there are a lot of requirements to get to that level, but it's the validity in which some of them are attained that draw the ire from some.

I've seen and worked enough "SchH III" dogs to know there's a difference in how some attain that level and how others have. I've also worked a lot of dogs to know what is average and what is exceptional and there are generalities that can be drawn among types of dogs.

I also think some get annoyed when people who don't know how these things seem to work, have unrealistic visions about what it means. This does NOT pertain to the OP, he seems to be a person that loves his dog as we all should and is genuinely curious. BUT, i too see this all the time. We have a world sieger progeny with us now. All we hear is how great of lines and where she came from. People are just enamored with the hoopla surrounding it. 

Nevermind the dog is scared of shadows, barks off into nothing with hackles up and hides behind her owners when just standing around. Actual training does not even happen, because it can't. But the stories are told to anyone that will listen and excuses are made all the time for why she acts like she does.


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## msvette2u

> Most people do when they see quality and hardwork get passed over for money and politics repeatedly.


But that's why I asked what I did.
What you're saying is dogs who aren't worthy are making it due to money and dogs that are worthy are passed over, again, due to money.

Lies, I read her list. But then there's that caveat - you also have to be rich


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## Liesje

Well, you have to be "rich" not only to win but just to have a long shot, considering how much it costs to enter that many shows, ship a dog to Europe (if it's not there already) to be campaigned, handler fees, etc. But is that really any different than any other competitive venture? Money = opportunity. I never went half as far as I dreamed when I was a gymnast because we couldn't afford the training and the travel. I could say the same about, say, agility. I literally cannot afford what it would take in entry fees to earn a MACH title even if my dog ran clean and Q'd every single run. Same for earning an RAE title in rally. 

Such is life.

Should a dog that has only been shown locally a few times with very little progeny being shown earn a VA1 title?

I'll tell you what bugs me more than the small time breeders/exhibitors having no chance is when a REALLY outstanding specimen IS passed over. For example Javir Talka Marda, look at his accomplishments on the working/sport side. He has been shown at the BSZS twice, I believe with a very nice progeny group both times and where does he finish? I don't remember exactly but probably at least 100 places from the top. THAT is what I think is a real shame, not when a small-timer like me has no chance with my decent show line dog, but a dog like that finishing at the back of the pack.


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## crackem

I don't think your gymnastics scenerio is really the same though. Sure money can get your more opportunity, BUT real talent still has a legitimate chance at winning. I wrestled growing up, thru high school and into college. Was pretty good. Never won state, but close, was average in college. I wrestled a friend of my brothers, 4 years younger and I might as well have been in 2nd grade. The talent level wasn't even close. Small town kid from WI. Was a bronze medalist in the olympics. 

Same with gymnastics. I'd venture a guess that those winning the olympics are better than 99.9% of the people out there doing it. The talent level isn't the same. I played football too, worked hard and the reason i'm not in the NFL? talent, i just dont' have enough. I have quite a bit, more than a lot i got to compete against, I worked pretty hard too, but I have no problems saying that I'm nowhere near as athleticallly talented as those that played beyond me. 

in all of those situations, talent can still take you pretty far. With the top dog competitions it's money and politics I don't think talent even qualifies as a qualifier.  Maybe on paper.


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## Liesje

As someone who ate, slept, breathed gymnastics for over a decade I respectfully disagree. I'm not at all talking about myself here, just in a general sense. If you don't have talent, you're not going to get anywhere, but you can have all the talent in the world and without opportunity you're not going to get anywhere either. It costs tens of thousands of dollars a year just to train, not including equipment, health care, private tutors since you often can't attend school, and international travel. Someone has to pay that bill. No gymnast is SO talented that they don't have to train full time (and by full time I mean full time, 6-8 hours a day 6 days a week). Many post-communist countries still pick pre-school kids off the playgrounds but their training is funded by the government. That doesn't happen in the US, with gymnastics or with dogs.


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## Freestep

Packen said:


> it becomes a moot question.


I just wanted to say, thank you for using the term "moot" without typing "mute".


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## crackem

I never intended to or said that it didn't take a lot of training, time or commitment. It also takes a lot of talent. It's not the same situation though.

There is an obvious talent difference between high class athletes and your average athelete. 

I was never in gymnastics, but I have a hard time believing it's different than football, basketball, wrestling, hockey, tennis, and any other sport people play. I knew a lot of good football players in high school, a few in college and in passing have met a few that play in the NFL. Opportunity had a bit to play with that, but in the overwhelming majority of the cases, every opportunity given to the guy in the NFL and the guy that didn't make it, would still result with the guy in the NFL making the NFL and the guys that didn't, still wouldn't.

Give the same opportunity to every gymnast, wrestler, basketball player etc, and most of them aren't going to achieve at a high level either. Sure there will be a couple that shine, but most of the time it won't end up any different than it did.

I've worked enough dogs and dogs of "high caliber" to know there are a heck of a ot of dogs nobody has ever heard of that perform as well or better than those declared the "best in the world" and it doesn't matter if they are "showlines" or "working".


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## Liesje

I'm not arguing talent, I'm saying that no gymnast can go to the Olympics for free, it's just not possible. I don't know anything about any other sports so I'm not trying to compare or assume they are the same. If you can't afford to DO gymnastics at a very high level from a very young age, you're not going to get anywhere even if you're the most talented child ever born. Not everyone *has* the same opportunity and if they did, the results would be different, both dogs and gymnasts most definitely, so pretending to give everyone the same opportunity is beside the point. NFL or wrestling...I couldn't care less about these sports so I have no idea if things would be different or not. In gymnastics you become what you become based on your own merits and the opportunity that you can afford, not based on training with a certain school or being scouted or getting scholarships or picked for a pro team. Your career peaks while you're still in highschool. If you want to be the best you train with the best and you pay them what they ask, no one invites you to be on their team and gives you perks and scholarships let alone *pays you* to be an athlete. Find me an Elite level gymnast in the USA who's household income is not significantly above the median... heck find me a Level 9 or 10....



> I've worked enough dogs and dogs of "high caliber" to know there are a heck of a ot of dogs nobody has ever heard of that perform as well or better than those declared the "best in the world" and it doesn't matter if they are "showlines" or "working".


That's exactly my point. There are plenty of dogs that are every bit as "good" (define that however you want) if not better than the WUSV winner or the BSZS Sieger but they can't win those events without the money/opportunity.

The reality is you've got to have the $$$ to be on the top but I don't see that as being unique to showing dogs...


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## crackem

we're arguing different points I think. all I know of gynmastics is what he local kids do around here and what I see on tv. I do know other sports quite well though and they're mostly the same. Some talented kids don't move on in levels because they dont' have opportunity. Some because they don't have talent, but all that move on, do so because they are at the top of their game. 

I'd be very hard pressed to find someone anywhere to compete with high level atheletes on a talent level. It just so happens that most of them are on a different level when it comes to ability, they just are. Throw in some opportunity and there they are, at the top. I don't think there are very many people waiting in the wings that are as good or better atheletes than those at the top in their chosen sport. Especially here. Good atheltes make lots of money and make lots of other people lots of money. Those with talent are picked over and given lots of opportunity by scouts and coaches from the time they are young on thru college. Sure there are a few that don't get noticed or don't have opportunity, but most with real talent get a chance to show it in some capacity.

Now look at dogs. I don't think the "talent" level of the "best in the world" is all that great. in fact I don't find it much to speak of at all. 

I certainly see there being work to getting there, and lots of requirements, but I don't see that those requirements and what they're supposed to stand for translating into anything real other than politics and money play a very important role.


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## Whiteshepherds

Liesje said:


> The reality is you've got to have the $$$ to be on the top but I don't see that as being unique to showing dogs...


Maybe the dogs need sponsors like in racing. "Ladies and Gentlemen, this is Spot, the ProPlan, 7-11, Tasty Chick German Shepherd Dog from xyz Kennel." 
I'm half kidding...could this be done without breaking some kind of rule?


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## selzer

I think that disparaging comments about the show-world -- what is wrong with the German system, American system, the fact that one cannot campaign and show a dog without a ton of money, and even if they did, if they are not known in the right circles, they are not going to go far, should be a thread of its own, and not brought up whenever someone with a showline dog out of a top dog, wants to know something about what it all means. 
[going for the longest, wildest sentence award]

Whatever we want to do, play tennis, golf, gymnastics, swim, ski, race, cycle -- whatever we want to do will be limited to some degree by our ability to fund or be funded. So sorry, but everything costs money from hotel rooms to entrance fees, to training and equipment -- everything. And we can feel all put out about it, we can accept it, we can try to change it, but we should not do it in someone's post about their dog.

It's kind of like admiring a cool car, and finally buying one and being really happy about it. And someone has to come on and tell you that the guts were made from forced labor in some third world country. It kind of makes you feel bad about buying it.


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## Liesje

I think people are just into what they're into. Rather than trying to change everyone else's rules just do what YOU think is best. I buy dogs that *I* like. Neither of my dogs were sired by either "top" working or show dogs. I pick based on lines and traits and accomplishments that *I* find valuable. The show people might obsess over one thing, and me over another, and the working line purist another.... I guess I don't see any way that the breed can realistically be reconciled back into one uniform interpretation of the standard so I live and let live. The show people have their BSZS, the working line people have their BSP or WUSV, I have my UKC Premier lol.


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## Liesje

crackem said:


> It just so happens that most of them are on a different level when it comes to ability, they just are. Throw in some opportunity and there they are, at the top.


It's beyond the point I was making with regard to campaigning show dogs but I just disagree, at least in my experience. The distribution of household income of high to top level gymnasts does not match the actual distribution of household income in this country, unless you mean to tell me that rich kids really are that much more talented than working class and poor kids. I don't think so. Again I have no idea how it plays out with other sports. My only experience playing any other sport besides gymnastics was soccer and T-ball as a little kid, because we could practice these things on our own (or with dad) and join local teams for cheap or be on a class A high school team for free. Gymnastics is never cheap and you can only practice it in a gym with proper coaching.


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## onyx'girl

Sorry to post off the topic, but when my daughter was in early elementary she was in gymnastics. The owner of the facility charged students different according to their level/and their parents income.
A friend of my daughter had natural body/athletic ability and won several meets(or whatever they are called) She ended up quitting in Middle school because the owner started charging her more as she was requiring more of her to keep her in the top level. 

This was the best facility in our town, so going elsewhere to train was not even an option. 

My daughter did Ti Qwan Do for a year and the same pricing applied, private meetings/ levels of pricing, the first thing they asked us was where we were employed. 

When you train competitively regardless of the sport, unless you have sponsors~ it is never going to be easy without an endless bank account.


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## sparra

Here in Australia we have the Australian Institute of Sport.
Entry into this is not based on how wealthy you are but how talented you are.
You can be dirt poor and go there if you are super talented.......and then WE the tax payers foot the bill for your training, accommodation etc.
I get what crackem is saying......if you are super talented at a sport but can't afford to train etc "sponsors" of some sort will usually foot the bill.
We have a very proud history here of many of our sporting stars coming from remote farming communities......not exactly "money" but because they had the talent they received scholarships etc......is it not the same in the US??


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## Liesje

sparra said:


> Here in Australia we have the Australian Institute of Sport.
> Entry into this is not based on how wealthy you are but how talented you are.
> You can be dirt poor and go there if you are super talented.......and then WE the tax payers foot the bill for your training, accommodation etc.
> I get what crackem is saying......if you are super talented at a sport but can't afford to train etc "sponsors" of some sort will usually foot the bill.
> We have a very proud history here of many of our sporting stars coming from remote farming communities......not exactly "money" but because they had the talent they received scholarships etc......is it not the same in the US??


No, at least not with gymnastics. If you're really good (like, you've *already* competed in the Olympics) you might get some endorsements at the end of your career but that's about it, and that makes you ineligible for collegiate competition so a lot of girls turn it down (you do college gymnastics *after* the peak of your competitive career, collegiate gymnastics is pretty watered down compared to top international competition).


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