# Advantages to breeding in first heat?



## sandypawsFL

I have 2 GSD's. My male is 2 years old and my female is a little over 6 months with no sign of heat cycle yet. Their parents all had their hips certified and the parents of my male are USCA registered. My male is a working personal protection dog and weighs in at only 65lbs. PERFECT for the amount of traveling we do together. My female is from larger lines and her parents were purchased in Germany while a couple were stationed over there in the Airforce. Other than their medical records and hip certs I don't know very much about their lineage. I chose to purchase my female from them mainly because of their mellow temperament. My female is approaching my male's size fast. Judging by the size of her parents, and her growth so far she will probably be at least 80lbs. What are the health risks to breeding a bitch in her first heat. I understand that it can stunt her growth... that is basically what I would like to do, unless the health risks to her outweigh the benefit of having a smaller GSD. I have read a lot about the risks involved with her losing calcium. Both my dogs have spent their entire lives eating Before Grain (BG) Evo or Taste of the Wild. Is there a better food out there with more fat and calcium? Are there prenatal vitamins for dogs? I have not asked my vet about breeding my female in her first heat, but he did clear her for her second heat. I figured I would rather face crucifiction via forum than in person.


----------



## Liesje

Why do you want to breed her?


----------



## DharmasMom

Oh boy. She is way to young. Think of it as a 12 year old girl having a baby. 

She should not be bred BEFORE 2 years of age and that is AFTER you have had her hips and elbows OFA'd. You can not do that before the age of 2.


----------



## Mrs.K

Oh boy....you don't know anything about pedigrees, you don't know anything about linage, you don't even know that you are not supposed to breed dogs in their first heat... but you want to breed? 

Why do you want to breed anyhow?


----------



## sagelfn

Liesje said:


> Why do you want to breed her?


Apparently to stunt the bitch's growth?

There are risks for an immature female to raise a litter. I'll let a breeder fill you in on that.


----------



## onyx'girl

another WOW....even a vet 'clearing' her for a 2nd heat breeding...just WOW.


----------



## Catu

Of all the reasons for breeding I've heard and read "to stunt a puppy's growth" brakes all the records. :teary:


----------



## DharmasMom

Catu said:


> Of all the reasons for breeding I've heard and read "to stunt a puppy's growth" brakes all the records. :teary:


Yep, that has got to be one of the saddest reasons ever.


----------



## sandypawsFL

ok so no health risks? cool thanks all!


----------



## Mrs.K

sandypawsFL said:


> ok so no health risks? cool thanks all!


:angryfire:


----------



## onyx'girl

Do you think you've been crucified yet, sandypawsFL? Just wait til the masses wake up....or maybe you could post your question on the PDB for "better opinions"


----------



## DharmasMom

sandypawsFL said:


> ok so no health risks? cool thanks all!


Actually there are. But one of the breeders can tell you about it best. The bitch is too young to be a mother. But if you are okay with her going nuts and killing her puppies, then by all means, carry on. Or her dying during the whelping, please, breed her.


----------



## Catu

You could breed a 12 years old kid too, that will keep her away from drugs for whole 9 months.


----------



## DharmasMom

And what is your plans for the puppies? Or do you even care? As long as you stunt your bitch's growth, does that even matter?? If you wanted a smaller size GSD, why didn't you get one from a breeder who had a litter from parents that were on the smaller size??


----------



## KZoppa

Are you out of your mind?! You have no knowledge of lineage and various other IMPORTANT pieces of information. You should NEVER breed a dog before they're 2 years old. EVER. Its dangerous with dogs who are old enough but with a puppy?! Your dog is not likely to be mentally mature enough to handle a litter until she's at minimum 2 years old, not to mention the health risks involved. Are you financially prepared for vet visits and any surprises? Are you ready to lose your dog and hand raise an entire litter of possibly 8+ puppies? Are you ready for that kind of exhaustion? What about the reputation of being a backyard breeder and breeding unknown health problems in because you dont know what you're doing? Its extremely stupid on your part. Leave the breeding to the PROFESSIONALS who have knowledge of lineage and what they're doing. What you want to do is wrong on so many levels. Think of it this way; just because 11 and 12 year old kids can get pregnant, doesnt mean they should. Babies shouldnt have babies. Could even call it neglect. Why neglect? because its neglectful to not protect your dog, who is supposed to be your companion first and foremost by allowing her to be bred before she's old enough to do so which can lead to SERIOUS health issues as a result.


----------



## sagelfn

I'm not a breeder so I've forgotten the name of it but I know the male could die if the bitch is not tested for ______ ? Since the male is a working dog maybe she at least cares about him.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Whats with all the crazy threads? People must not have much to do doing the summer.

Anyways, OP, you are doing something very wrong, unhealthy, and irresponsible.


----------



## KZoppa

sagelfn said:


> I'm not a breeder so I've forgotten the name of it but I know the male could die if the bitch is not tested for ______ ? Since the male is a working dog maybe she at least cares about him.


 
i believe its Brucellios (sp?). I dont think she honestly cares about either of them if she's talking about breeding a puppy.


----------



## DharmasMom

So, I was thinking. There are other ways you could stunt her growth, if that is your goal. You could get a hammer and break all four of her legs at the growth plate. That would slow her down. Or you could quit feeding her. Severe malnutrition is a GREAT way to stunt growth. Hope that helps. I will keep trying to think of other ways to help!


----------



## koda girl

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought this forum was about getting help and advice, not being crucified. If you really want this person not to breed her dog which I agree is too young, bashing her like this is not going to put her on your side. I understand how wrong it is but tell her in a nice way how wrong it is, then she might actually listen to you. Just my opinion.


----------



## KZoppa

DharmasMom said:


> So, I was thinking. There are other ways you could stunt her growth, if that is your goal. You could get a hammer and break all four of her legs at the growth plate. That would slow her down. Or you could quit feeding her. Severe malnutrition is a GREAT way to stunt growth. Hope that helps. I will keep trying to think of other ways to help!


 
those are great ideas to stunt growth! i forget which one exactly but arent there vitamins that she can give the pup that if given enough will stunt growth along with causing several other health problems? Sounds like they enjoy vet bills up to wazoo. OOH! here's a fabulous one!!!! Over feed her so she becomes overweight and it causes health problems that way!


----------



## selzer

No. For a bitch bred on her first heat? For a large-breed bitch? Physically, there is always a danger, bitch can die, but they can always have something wrong. But mentally, this is a PUPPY. A puppy goes through the whelping process, and then has a huge job of raising the litter -- some plain will not. They do not get it what they need to do. 

I can overlook many things. Breeding a bitch on her first heat -- no. Oh you can do it. I am not sure whether she will be old enough to register the litter, I know there are limits. Nobody is going to slap you on the back and congratulate you.


----------



## KZoppa

koda girl said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I thought this forum was about getting help and advice, not being crucified. If you really want this person not to breed her dog which I agree is too young, bashing her like this is not going to put her on your side. I understand how wrong it is but tell her in a nice way how wrong it is, then she might actually listen to you. Just my opinion.


 
thats a nice idea and yes this forum does help with needing advice and help but when you start seeing the same thread over and over again and people not listening, yeah they get attacked. If her vet is telling her its okay, they need a new vet IMO but the fact she even considering breeding on the first heat is ignorant. And thats the nicest way to put it. How is it okay for babies to have babies and people dont think about that.


----------



## DharmasMom

koda girl said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but I thought this forum was about getting help and advice, not being crucified. If you really want this person not to breed her dog which I agree is too young, bashing her like this is not going to put her on your side. I understand how wrong it is but tell her in a nice way how wrong it is, then she might actually listen to you. Just my opinion.



I think the reason he/she wants to breed has people upset. I was willing to give him/her the benefit of the doubt until they posted this:




sandypawsFL said:


> ok so no health risks? cool thanks all!



This post shows that they really aren't interested in learning and probably doesn't care what we say anyway. So sorry, "nice" went out the window. They are going to risk their puppy's life by having more puppies just so she won't get so big. Seriously????


----------



## sandypawsFL

Contrary to popular belief I care for both my dogs and their offspring. I love my dogs and they are the pride and joy of our family and admired by all they meet. I never even considered having a second dog until after working with my male. GSD's intelligence, workability, and courage is unmatched in my opinion. We purchased a female with the right temperament to be a "mamma dog". At first it was only to be mamma for whatever kids we may have in the future and baby animals around the farm. I have heard so many stories of excellent GSD's being family guardians. My male on the other hand is all work work work. I suspect he'll simmer down in the future though. After some thought and planning and a checking of our finances we decided not to have her spayed and let them have their own family. I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female. Sadly for them a litters worth is going to our family and close friends. How did all of you get your purebred dogs? Storks? You're telling me every dog here has titled parents? AKC snobs.


----------



## DharmasMom

This isn't about how we got our dogs. This isn't about AKC. This is about the fact you want to breed a PUPPY and purely for the reason to stunt her growth (remember that, it was in your first post). There are a MILLION reasons NOT to do it at all, ever. There are even more not to do it while she is a PUPPY!!!


----------



## Tbarrios333

Does anyone else smell a troll?


----------



## Jessiewessie99

sandypawsFL said:


> Contrary to popular belief I care for both my dogs and their offspring. I love my dogs and they are the pride and joy of our family and admired by all they meet. I never even considered having a second dog until after working with my male. GSD's intelligence, workability, and courage is unmatched in my opinion. We purchased a female with the right temperament to be a "mamma dog". At first it was only to be mamma for whatever kids we may have in the future and baby animals around the farm. I have heard so many stories of excellent GSD's being family guardians. My male on the other hand is all work work work. I suspect he'll simmer down in the future though. After some thought and planning and a checking of our finances we decided not to have her spayed and let them have their own family. I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female. Sadly for them a litters worth is going to our family and close friends. How did all of you get your purebred dogs? Storks? You're telling me every dog here has titled parents? AKC snobs.


Not a good enough reason to breed. No My dogs are not from titled parents. 1 is from a BYB/oops and the other from a shelter. If I get a dog from a breeder they are going to be from titled parents. 

No one here is an AKC snob.


----------



## sandypawsFL

I'm not seeing any health risks here outside risks more age appropriate dogs also face with pregnancy. She may not take to her puppies and that does worry me. I'll think I have to courage to consult with my vet now lol

HAHAHA I hope he doesn't recommend I bash her growth plates LOLOLOLOL!!!


----------



## sagelfn

sandypawsFL said:


> Contrary to popular belief I care for both my dogs and their offspring. I love my dogs and they are the pride and joy of our family and admired by all they meet. I never even considered having a second dog until after working with my male. GSD's intelligence, workability, and courage is unmatched in my opinion. We purchased a female with the right temperament to be a "mamma dog". At first it was only to be mamma for whatever kids we may have in the future and baby animals around the farm. I have heard so many stories of excellent GSD's being family guardians. My male on the other hand is all work work work. I suspect he'll simmer down in the future though. *After some thought and planning and a checking of our finances we decided not to have her spayed and let them have their own family.* I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female. Sadly for them a litters worth is going to our family and close friends. How did all of you get your purebred dogs? Storks? You're telling me every dog here has titled parents? AKC snobs.


You can't afford to spay her but can afford to breed her? What's the average rate for an emergency C-section? $3000 What if you have to have a C-section and the mom kills the pups? no money out 3 grand

Please educate yourself.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

sandypawsFL said:


> I'm not seeing any health risks here outside risks more age appropriate dogs also face with pregnancy. She may not take to her puppies and that does worry me. I'll think I have to courage to consult with my vet now lol
> 
> HAHAHA I hope he doesn't recommend I bash her growth plates LOLOLOLOL!!!


There is MUCH more to be worried about then stunt growth.


----------



## DharmasMom

I hope you enjoy the term backyard breeder. Sadly that is the road you are taking. Are you even aware that in 6 years one bitches litter can theoretically produce 67,000 dogs?? Do you even care that EVERY DAY thousands of dogs are euthanized in kill shelters in this country, millions every year and many, many of those are purebred, many with "papers". 

Welcome to becoming part of the problem.


----------



## DharmasMom

Jessiewessie99 said:


> There is MUCH more to be worried about then stunt growth.



She WANTS to stunt her growth, that is why she wants to breed her so young.


----------



## DharmasMom

sandypawsFL said:


> I'm not seeing any health risks here outside risks more age appropriate dogs also face with pregnancy. She may not take to her puppies and that does worry me. I'll think I have to courage to consult with my vet now lol
> 
> HAHAHA I hope he doesn't recommend I bash her growth plates LOLOLOLOL!!!



She may also kill and eat her puppies. Imagine waking up one morning to that happy picture.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

DharmasMom said:


> She WANTS to stunt her growth, that is why she wants to breed her so young.


I know. I meant that she shouldn't just worry about stunting her dogs growth but also worry about other problems.


----------



## sagelfn

I'm calling troll

I would hope someone with an actual PPD would be able to "talk dog" better than this


----------



## sandypawsFL

sagelfn said:


> You can't afford to spay her but can afford to breed her? What's the average rate for an emergency C-section? $3000 What if you have to have a C-section and the mom kills the pups? no money out 3 grand
> 
> Please educate yourself.


As in we looked at our finances and decided we could afford to breed them and the potential costs associated no problem. It would be a pain to lose a lot of money on an unsuccessful litter but my dogs are priceless. Maybe I'll be able to tell my story on here later. Good or bad, if I decide to do this at all.


----------



## KZoppa

sandypawsFL said:


> Contrary to popular belief I care for both my dogs and their offspring. I love my dogs and they are the pride and joy of our family and admired by all they meet. I never even considered having a second dog until after working with my male. GSD's intelligence, workability, and courage is unmatched in my opinion. We purchased a female with the right temperament to be a "mamma dog". At first it was only to be mamma for whatever kids we may have in the future and baby animals around the farm. I have heard so many stories of excellent GSD's being family guardians. My male on the other hand is all work work work. I suspect he'll simmer down in the future though. After some thought and planning and a checking of our finances we decided not to have her spayed and let them have their own family. I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female. Sadly for them a litters worth is going to our family and close friends. How did all of you get your purebred dogs? Storks? You're telling me every dog here has titled parents? AKC snobs.


 

titled parents SHOWS not only responsibility and desire to better the breed but prove they are worth breeding. I have a dog that i love dearly. She's sweet. But she is never going to be breed worthy. None of my dogs have been directly from a reputable breeder... yet and i still have no intention of ever breeding. Thats better left up to the professionals. When someone askes you for your website or card because they love your dog, send them to an actual reputable breeder who has knowledge of what they're doing. Just because everyone loves your dogs, doesnt mean the puppies will be as great. So many problems come up in dogs people had no knowledge of what they were doing and didnt listen to those who do this professionally. One of my dogs has hip dysplasia so not breed worthy even if i had her pedigree. One of my dogs is NOT purbred so not breed worthy anyway besides being fixed. and my newest girl is already showing signs of hip dysplasia and she just turn a year old. Plus she's an oops/backyard breeder litter pup. Leave the breeding to those who know what they're doing. Dont risk your dogs lives like that.


----------



## robinhuerta

Don't fall for this thread......your response is EXACTLY what the OP was hoping for.
As mentioned before.....TROLL seems like a pretty accurate term.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

It must be troll week, they seem to be popping up everywhere.


----------



## sandypawsFL

What is a troll?


----------



## sagelfn

Don't take the bait


----------



## Achielles UD

It isn't true about stunting their growth, worse, it can possibly kill them. The reason is because by a puppies first heat cycle (yes they are still puppies when they have their first cycle), if you breed them their puppies will take away essential calcium from the mother's body for her bones growing, which can cause many conditions, like rickets, and when the puppies nurse they can also cause a condition called Eclampsia which can kill a dog within 24 hours. It is a very violent death as the dog goes into siezures because the puppies are taking so much calcium out of the mother that the mother's calcium levels dip too low which causes the brain to counteract by going into seizures. If you don't get the mother to the vet fast enough so that calcium can be administered intravenously, the dog will die. Then of course, you have to hand raise all the puppies.


----------



## GSD_Xander

robinhuerta said:


> Don't fall for this thread......your response is EXACTLY what the OP was hoping for.
> As mentioned before.....TROLL seems like a pretty accurate term.


:thumbup:


----------



## wolfstraum

how about she can die having the litter????

Can't decide if this is a troll or just some  ....vote for troll....

Lee


----------



## Liesje

sandypawsFL said:


> I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female.


Well, this is par for the course. Sorry to break it to you, but everyone thinks THEIR dog is the best ever, and there have been multiple (maybe dozens) of threads on here devoted to the comments people say about our dogs or how many people insist we breed them. It happens to everyone who has a nice GSD, which is most if not all of us here. Two days ago I had my puppy out and a car pulled over to watch him, several people slowed to a crawl, and a pedestrian came by. I had someone willing to fly with their bitch to me to breed her to my male (who DOES have hip/elbow clearances, conformation, protection, and a bunch of other performance titles). I am not an AKC snob, I no longer participate in their events but my dogs (especially the ones I *might* consider breeding when old enough and have health clearances) are worked, trained, and titled. If I can do it, a breeder can to.

I'm not going to sit here and say you are producing puppies that will end up in a shelter and kill shelter dogs. That is probably not true. For all I know you already have homes for them and would take them back in a heartbeat. But I think to even consider risking your female's life for something that is not true is disturbing. If you wanted a small female you should have bought a small female. Also I fin it outrageous that you would breed her as a baby, before she is at the very minimum physically mature, let alone proper health clearances (also a bare minimum, IMO). If you want to be a good breeder respected among GSD fanciers and your peers why do you think you can cut all the corners?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

koda girl said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but *I thought this forum was about getting help and advice,* not being crucified. If you really want this person not to breed her dog which I agree is too young, bashing her like this is not going to put her on your side. I understand how wrong it is but tell her in a nice way how wrong it is, then she might actually listen to you. Just my opinion.


That's correct.... so please people, post to help and inform so the OP stays, learns and make a better decision..... Rather than just quiting from justified anger and goes on to breed without the information they need.

We have alot of good information to teach people to be 'responsible' breeders at http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html <- click that


----------



## LaRen616

Please do not breed your dog, there are already way too many animals dying in shelters everyday because people "wanted a puppy from their dog" or they wanted her to have just one litter or they wanted to make a quick buck or their unaltered animal got out and bred with another dog or strays that keep reproducing. So please go take a look at your local animal shelter, more than half of those dogs in there will not be making it back out. 

If more people were responsible then we wouldn't have so many animals dying every single day in shelters. 

Breeding should be left to Reputable Breeders, people that are looking to better the breed, people with great breed worthy dogs, looking to breed healthier GSD's and GSD's that have great temperment and the ability to preform any task that their owner gives to them. Reputable breeders title, health test, temperment test and choose the best of the best to breed.

You have to look at the big picture, if you bring 10 puppies into the world when you breed your GSD and 2 of those puppies get bred and they have 10 puppies and 2 of those puppies get bred and they have 10 puppies each, in a matter of about 5-10 years *YOU* brought 50 more puppies into this world when there are already puppies dying in shelters everyday because there are not enough homes for them all.

Your puppies will have puppies, and those puppies will have puppies........ the cycle will continue and more lives will be lost in shelters.


----------



## Liesje

Seriously though, we don't need to crucify anyone that comes here thinking of breeding. Constantly bringing up puppies in shelters and bla bla bla is just feeding the AR agenda. Breeders are not divine; they don't live forever and at some point, other people will need to take up the cause. Nothing wrong with that. However I do not ever think that being new, or insisting on "just one" litter, or wanting to breed a litter for friends and family in any way excuses someone from jumping through the proper hoops. If you want to be a well respected breeder then you maybe have to try even *harder* than current breeders in order to prove yourself, not cut corners just because you think you have the two greatest GSDs in the world (don't we all). 

I do not assume this thread is trolling; I've hear people say a lot more outrageous things about GSDs in all seriousness.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Lies

I will also add, there will always be people breeding dogs that shouldn't be, it's never ever going to stop.

With that, to the OP, if you are intending to breed your dog, whats the hurry? Breeding early is NOT going to affect her physical growth. However breeding early, can have many other negative consequences. The worse being your female could die (altho she could die at any age giving birth).

There is absolutely no excuse or valid reason for breeding your female without proper health testing when they become an appropriate age, (not before two).

Should you decide to go ahead and do this NOW, on a 6mth old female, well it will show your true ignorance when it comes to breeding.


----------



## NancyJ

Just bypassing the "IF" question right now and focusing on the "when"

I would be terrified to do anything that messed with the CA ratios until those growth plates were completely closed and the dog had a chance to be an adult. I would not want' to play scientist and come up with a diet to counteract something that should not be done in the first place. I don't know what having to create puppies does to the developing bones of a dog that is a puppy herself but imagine both of them would get the short end of the stick.

It is not just genetics that causes hip remodeling. Genetics is very much linked to dysplasias but bone remdodeling is influenced by mineral content in food, vitamins, etc -- And I don't know if ligaments loosen on dogs like they do on people but between that and carrying the extra weight of puppies. None of that can be good. Your vet cleared her for 2nd heat. Why not wait until THEN to make a decision and in the meanwhile maybe consider the "if"?

Your argument is akin to me giving my 8 year old grandaughter cigarrettes because they will "stunt her growth"


----------



## Chris Wild

Advantages - NONE
This isn't going to "stunt her growth". Regardless of that being one of the most ridiculous reasons ever it is not something that is going to happen.

Disadvantages
All those that go with breeding a dog who is not yet health tested - MANY.
All those that go with breeding a dog that is not yet tested for temperament, working ability and proper GSD characteristics - MANY.
All those that go with breeding without intense research into the lines and what genetics they carry, and making a proper selection of mates based on complimentary and compensatory factors both in the dogs themselves and the genetics carried in their lines - MANY.
All those that go with breeding a dog who is not yet even close to mature enough to fully know who she is, much less properly evaluate her - MANY.

She could have serious complications, which are far more likely to happen in bitches being bred when not yet mature or too late in life. These can be very expensive (a c-section alone runs $1200 and up), and can also result in death of bitch, pups, or both.
Being too young and immature, she may not know what to do. She may kill her puppies intentionally. She may kill them unintentionally due to lack of proper instinct. She may refuse to nurse them, in which case you will be bottle feeding puppies around the clock.. every pup at least every 2 hours for the first few weeks.

And then of course there are the other factors, which I'm sure you don't care about since you don't care about the rest of these things, in that you are putting more poorly bred puppies from poorly thought out breedings done for all the wrong reasons out into the world. The world needs good breeders. It certainly doesn't need anymore like this. And truly good homes who understand the GSD and are appropriate for a GSD aren't going to be interested in puppies from a breeding done for all the wrong reasons by a breeder who doesn't care about the welfare of his dogs or pups or their future owners and has no interest in even attempting to do things properly.


----------



## carmspack

Clueless breeding is just the worst. Every resultant progeny , whether decent, mediocre or nightmare bad becomes part of the "GSD" for vets, policy makers, trainers dealing with issues. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## CassandGunnar

I think I'm leaning more toward the "troll" side of this thread. 
If you want to stunt growth, have the dog take up smoking..........that makes about as much sense as letting her have a litter to do the job.
:rofl:


----------



## Angela

sandypawsFL said:


> Contrary to popular belief I care for both my dogs and their offspring. I love my dogs and they are the pride and joy of our family and admired by all they meet. I never even considered having a second dog until after working with my


You say you love your dogs, but you are seeking ways to stunt her growth, on purpose? 

Does not compute.


----------



## DunRingill

I'm leaning towards troll....school must be out!

As to the bitch's supposedly perfect temperament....she's a baby, you don't really KNOW what her adult temperament will be. Just like you can't tell from talking to most pre-teens what they'll be like as mature adults. 

Most people think they have perfect dogs. Most people who have purebred dogs have people telling them they want a puppy. Don't count on that, most of those people disappear when the time comes. 

Hey who knows, maybe the bitch won't come in season....or maybe she won't be fertile, or the male will be shooting blanks. Or maybe she'll be extremely fertile and have a huge litter that will kill her or badly damage her in a way that will require a spay during the c-section, and the op will have to bottle feed 10 puppies around the clock and watch as many of them die one in spite of constant care. These are all possibilities, we're not making this up!

I had a client who had 2 intact bichons....I warned them about the very real possibility of an accidental breeding, and how the puppy bitch shouldn't be bred on her first heat, but they thought I was exaggerating. Well she came in season and they kept the dogs separated for about a week and thought that was long enough. Yeah you know what happened next. She had to have a c-section and it was an emergency on a weekend so it cost extra....they lost 2 of the pups and ended up with 2, which they had to bottle feed because mom was NOT interested. Lots of work keeping those little babies alive. When it was all done they immediately had mom spayed.....but they said she was never the same after that. They wanted their happy outgoing puppy back but she was gone and a grumpy dog-aggressive bitch was what was left! 

But really, we're all just spinning our wheels....the OP, if she really intends to breed her dog, is going to do it. She doesn't care about facts and doesn't care about doing things correctly. Her reasons for breeding this litter are probably monetary and entirely selfish.


----------



## sandypawsFL

I'm so happy the peaceful masses came. Thank you very much for your insight I am listening. I did some research online and from the info I found first heat pregnancies usually seemed to go pretty well with the exception of a malnourished stray here and there. So I thought I would post my question here to the avid GSD owners. Effecting my puppy's growth is not worth the long term risks. I respect your opinions as I view you as experts in the breed. And to all the passionate haters, relax! Its hard to take you seriously. I didn't think I would afraid someone was going to come find me last night! Good thing I have a PPD GSD


----------



## Liesje

It's not just about the risks of pregnancy or what heat your breed during. Your dog is a BABY right now! I'm laughing here just thinking that I knew my dog's true temperament at 6 months...no way! Just treat her with love and have fun with your puppy! Not only is the dog not mentally mature but not physically either. I know a few 13 year olds that had babies without major complications...but no one is going to condone 13 year olds becoming parents!


----------



## selzer

I think there is a couple of reasons this post offends more than the usual my-dogs-are-the-best-how-do-I-breed-them threads. 

First is the deliberate desire to change the natural growth of the puppy, by getting her pregnant and having her raise a litter. I really do not know if it will work. I would be concerned with depriving the calcium to the bones while they are still growing. I think it would cause problems for the pup down the line. And I would definitely worry about Eclampsia. 

Perhaps the OP has a big bottle of calcium supplement, and is planning on dosing her with that. This is all so dangerous. 

The second reason is that we look at our dogs and give them human qualities -- yes twice in this thread people have said things like that is like having your 12 year old get pregnant, and making your eight year old smoke cigarettes. These definitely illustrate the point, and I understand why it is put in there. But a lot of us call our dogs "babies" or "puppies" when they are six or seven years old. Some cannot imagine their two or three year old dog getting pregnant. 

But I look at puppies, six month old puppies, they do not have their adult bodies yet, they are wriggly and chunky and puppyish. The thought of deliberately getting a six month old puppy pregnant is right up their on the scale of sex-offenders. Predator, pedophile, baby-dog breeder -- sick, sick, sick! 18 months old is still young, but she should at least be full grown, and will have lost her puppy fuzz. 

I think that 18 months is the allowable age to start breeding in Germany. I am not usually one to go back to what the Germans do over and over again. But in this, the German club, SV, is a German Shepherd Club, and its policies and edicts are all with the GSD in mind. Whereas the AKC is an all breed club, and their policies are concerning all dogs, some of which do mature faster. 

I know that males should have all their tests in place -- pen hip can be done at 12 months, and they should be trained and titled, and their final temperament may not be apparent until they are fully mature, but their part in the deed takes about an hour, and then they can go back to being a puppy. The female's body goes through a lot of physical changes and there is pain involved, and then the bitch has to be everything to those puppies for 3-4 weeks, and continue to provide for them until they are weaned at five - seven weeks old. 

The temperament of the puppies is somewhat genetic. They get some of their temperament from their genes, and while you may not know what the bitch's final temperament is, this part is not the concern. The next part is the problem, puppies are imprinted by their dam, her behavior and temperament while raising them in the litter. If she is nervous, her puppies will be nervous. A dog thrown into a situation which they have never experienced and is mentally not ready for, is very likely to be nervous, possibly aggressive with people or other dogs or cats -- anything that might hurt the puppies. She may be crazy with the puppies too. This is what is very likely to be imprinted on these puppies, even if Mama Puppy has a superb temperament. 

You can literally ruin Mama Puppy by doing this. And produce a bunch of puppies that could have terrible nerve issues. It is a terribly selfish thing to do to your pup. Put it on the back burner. Take a year or two and learn all you can. If you still want to breed her, well, she will be intact unless you fix her. 

Please do not be a baby-dog breeder.


----------



## BlackthornGSD

Obviously, if breeding a dog on her first heat stunts her growth it is because breeding on the first heat has a negative effect on the dog's health.

In addition, when a bitch is that young, she is less likely to be a good mother and may have trouble instinctively knowing how to be gentle with and take care of the puppies.


----------



## bunchoberrys

Most people who breed their female dog one time wind up spaying her and never breeding again. They had no idea until they did it just how much it would cost, what a huge amount of work it would be, how hard it would be on the female dog, and the other problems. It's normal for a third of the puppies to die, sometimes more and sometimes fewer. The whole litter can easily get sick.

Female dogs of any age can die giving birth, and the risk is higher for those who are young or old. She might be a poor mother, too, further damaging the potential of the puppies by giving them a bad start in life. Breeding puts a female dog at risk of death, permanent illness from the stress, and negative changes in temperament. 

Puppies and dogs bred from proven parent dogs are not part of our dog overpopulation problem. The puppies being produced that contribute to overpopulation are the ones with no special reason for being bred. The special ones have waiting homes. There are not enough properly-bred dogs to go around to the homes who want them. There are far too many dogs from untested, unproven parents for the homes willing to take them. Large dogs have big litters, and the large dogs are the most likely to wind up homeless when they come from poor breeding.

I'm sure you believe that your dogs are beautiful and are the best. And I can assure you that everyone else on this board feels the same about their dogs. But if you truly love the breed, do your research, get in contact with reputable breeders that can help you learn and do it the proper way. Just because your dogs are beautiful on the outside, doesn't mean that they are healthy on the inside. Especially a 6month old.


----------



## angelaw

There are absolutely NO good reasons for breeding first and most often times, second heat cycles. Let them grow up. Just because parents might be ofa'd doesn't mean the females hips will be good.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

sandypawsFL said:


> I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female.





Liesje said:


> Well, this is par for the course. Sorry to break it to you, but everyone thinks THEIR dog is the best ever, and there have been multiple (maybe dozens) of threads on here devoted to the comments people say about our dogs or how many people insist we breed them. *It happens to everyone who has a nice GSD*, which is most if not all of us here.


ALL the time!!! I had a neighbor _begging _me to breed Dena because he wanted a puppy from her so bad (he would have paid me! ), when we'd take Dena & Keefer (her half sibling) out places we were _constantly_ asked if we were going to breed them (they were speutered, so that would have been impossible even if I had any interest in doing something that stupid), and a guy we've been running into at Point Isabel for years who has a couple of young female shepherds has asked me several times if Keefer is neutered (NO, he's not gonna be your girls' baby daddy!). Halo has been propositioned numerous times, once when she was only 7 months old. By a total stranger who didn't even have her dog with her at the time, but was interested in breeding him. Um, no - not to my little girl, you won't. :nono:

Can't tell you how many times I've heard the "that's a shame" comment about my speutered dogs from ignorant dog owners interested in indiscriminately breeding their own absolutely fabulous pet dog. So yeah, nothing at all unusual about that.


----------



## Jax08

sandypawsFL said:


> ok so no health risks? cool thanks all!


She could die...is that risky enough?


----------



## Gilly1331

Medical issues related to early breeding of an immature dog...death of the mother, still born puppies, deformed puppies, puppies rotting upinside the horns of the mother, bacteria issues, bone issues in mothers and pups, injury to the male and female during breeding, having uterian problems, having to spay because of an emergency, having to terminate the puppies before being born due to many medical issues which may or may not save the bitch, passing on of diseases between the male, female or to the puppies, your female could rip the males penis off due to inexperience of the handles/young dogs, your bitch could become sterile from an early breeding, if teh puppies are too large and get stuck during birth they can kill your female and any remaining puppies, the bitch can pull out stuck puppies and severly injure, amputate or kill her puppies, the bitch can rupture vessels and bleed out,

It is dangerous to breed a fully mature dog let alone a 6 month old puppy that hasn'y fully developed internally.

Please wait until the bitch is at least 2 years old to breed. You may regret an early breeding and loose your beloved pup to it.
Questions and Answers on Breeding and Whelping Puppies

So you want to be a breeder?


----------



## selzer

So, I am just curious, has anyone first or second hand knowledge of a dog who had its penis ripped off?


----------



## Andaka

Not ripped off, but it wad broken and the dog was unable to penetrate after that.


----------



## vat

Yikes, I just have no reply to this thread!


----------



## Dainerra

selzer said:


> So, I am just curious, has anyone first or second hand knowledge of a dog who had its penis ripped off?


I don't have experience with a dog, but I've seen it happen with cattle.

ETA: I also have 2nd hand (was my aunt's dog) of a first time mother that freaked out when she started giving birth, grabbed the partially emerged puppy by the head and ripped it in half. She also hurt herself in the process and they ended up putting her down.


----------



## Liesje

selzer said:


> So, I am just curious, has anyone first or second hand knowledge of a dog who had its penis ripped off?


I swear there was a thread on this forum about a *neutered* male that tried to tie and something happened.


----------



## Lilie

Andaka said:


> Not ripped off, but it wad broken and the dog was unable to penetrate after that.


I recall mentioned in a thread - a short time ago - about a male's penis that didn't retract resulting in having to take the dog to the vet before the lack of circulation did damage. There was mentioned that this happens and sometimes results in having to have the penis removed. I wish I could remember which thread that was in. As an owner of an intact male dog, it really shocked me.


----------



## Kay

sandypawsFL said:


> Contrary to popular belief I care for both my dogs and their offspring. I love my dogs and they are the pride and joy of our family and admired by all they meet. I never even considered having a second dog until after working with my male. GSD's intelligence, workability, and courage is unmatched in my opinion. We purchased a female with the right temperament to be a "mamma dog". At first it was only to be mamma for whatever kids we may have in the future and baby animals around the farm. I have heard so many stories of excellent GSD's being family guardians. My male on the other hand is all work work work. I suspect he'll simmer down in the future though. After some thought and planning and a checking of our finances we decided not to have her spayed and let them have their own family. I can't take either of them anywhere without people asking me for my website or card (which I have neither) for a puppy out of their litter. Even if they only ever see the male or just the female. Sadly for them a litters worth is going to our family and close friends. How did all of you get your purebred dogs? Storks? You're telling me every dog here has titled parents? AKC snobs.


Haha at the "AKC snobs" part. To be honest, yes, my gal came from CKC titled parents. Her grandparents were also titled. As were her great grandparents.

The problem doesn't lie so much in the fact that the parents aren't fully titled. It's the fact that you can't even afford to spay your puppy, yet you will let her have puppies? What happens if if your puppy needs an emergency c-section? How will you afford that? Your dog isn't even old enough to have her hips certified, and she is still a puppy! We are not snobs, we are people that are passionate about our breed; we want to see breeders who know what they're doing striving to improve our breed. We don't like seeing BYB breeding their dogs just to make a couple bucks. BYB pups are usually the German Shepherds you find in shelters, with serious health problems, or with aggression problems that perpetuate the idea that they belong on breed ban lists.

I love animals, and that is why I don't want you to breed your dog. There are enough unwanted pets in shelters that need homes, tell your family members to adopt one of them.

I seriously hope this topic was just a trolling topic.


----------



## selzer

ick. 

I heard of a bitch that was hard to manage. She would allow the dog in, but there was a small wall in the hard and the people had just allowed them to run about in the yard and he mounted, and after the tie, she jumped over the wall and hurt him. 

Well, the next time they decided to breed her it was winter and raining and they did not want wait out in the cold. They figured she learned her lesson, and would not do that again. So they left them out and watched through the window as she DID IT AGAIN! 

I do not know if either was ruined forever, but I think the person who told me this second-hand story would have let me know if she ripped it clean off.


----------



## DharmasMom

I have absolutely no idea about dogs. I do know it is possible for a human male to fracture his penis during intercourse. I have personally seen a couple of men come into the ER with that particular emergency. I would guess if humans can manage to do that kind of damage so can dogs.


----------



## Lilie

DharmasMom said:


> I have absolutely no idea about dogs. I do know it is possible for a human male to fracture his penis during intercourse. I have personally seen a couple of men come into the ER with that particular emergency. I would guess if humans can manage to do that kind of damage so can dogs.


So much I want to say.....but I won't.


----------



## oldno43

Sandy is a Troll no more to say.


----------



## jetscarbie

Liesje said:


> I swear there was a thread on this forum about a *neutered* male that tried to tie and something happened.


 
Yes, I think you are talking about the thread I started when it happened to my neutered male. Very scary thing!!
It can happen to neutered and non-neutered....human males also.

I'm just glad I caught my dog's in time. Penis amputations are NOT cheap. Basically they have to rework your male dog's plumbing. He doesn't pee out of a penis anymore cause it's not there. He pees out of a hole they make in your male dogs stomach.


----------



## Mrs.K

Kay said:


> Haha at the "AKC snobs" part. To be honest, yes, my gal came from CKC titled parents. Her grandparents were also titled. As were her great grandparents.
> 
> The problem doesn't lie so much in the fact that the parents aren't fully titled. It's the fact that you can't even afford to spay your puppy, yet you will let her have puppies? What happens if if your puppy needs an emergency c-section? How will you afford that? Your dog isn't even old enough to have her hips certified, and she is still a puppy! We are not snobs, we are people that are passionate about our breed; we want to see breeders who know what they're doing striving to improve our breed. We don't like seeing BYB breeding their dogs just to make a couple bucks. BYB pups are usually the German Shepherds you find in shelters, with serious health problems, or with aggression problems that perpetuate the idea that they belong on breed ban lists.
> 
> I love animals, and that is why I don't want you to breed your dog. There are enough unwanted pets in shelters that need homes, tell your family members to adopt one of them.
> 
> I seriously hope this topic was just a trolling topic.


Ya know, what we want doesn't matter. We can't stop it. Thats the point. If that person exists and breeds her six month old dog, we can't do anything about it.


----------



## GSD07

DharmasMom said:


> I do know it is possible for a human male to fracture his penis during intercourse.


 I think human males would be thrilled if their penises had the anatomy that could be fractured LOL


----------



## sna1987

I know this is about a dog, but my neighbor's cat got pregnant when she had her first heat, the kittens died, and the cat was never the same. She got kind of mean afterward.


----------



## Mrs.K

sna1987 said:


> I know this is about a dog, but my neighbor's cat got pregnant when she had her first heat, the kittens died, and the cat was never the same. She got kind of mean afterward.


same thing happened to on of our barncats. She got pregnant with the first heat an abandoned the kittens. They all died too. She did not get mean though..


----------



## tsteves

This thread makes me so happy that Kona is getting fixed tomorrow. If she had pups and someone got a hold of one and even thought of doing this to them it would make me sick. 

I love my puppy to death, I hear everywhere she goes how beautiful she is and how smart and awesome but that does not mean that she should be bred period let alone when she is still a puppy and could kill her and cause so many more problems than GSD's are already prone to having. I'm sure Kona will grow up to be an amazing companion and hopefully a therapy dog but the whole breeding thing should be left to professionals that know what they are doing and dogs that are worthy of carrying on the GSD name.


----------

