# Sustainable Ownership of Carnivores



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Let’s discuss.

In some ways this is a spin-off thread from something posted a week or two ago, but I’d like to step back and look at the big picture.

I place a high priority on attempting to be both sustainable and practical when it comes to consumption and lifestyle choices, from housing to utilities to food and water. One item I struggle with (and the relevant item to discuss in this community) is my frustrating endless attempt to balance Ethics – Sustainability – Costs – of owning and feeding large dogs. 

*Disclaimer *_– I am not advocating feeding vegan/vegetarian diets to carnivores, let’s not waste time on that ancient beaten argument anymore. And let’s not talk about human diets or PETA either, let’s try and stick to the topic of feeding our German Shepherds, please. So!_

Most of the cheap meat on the market is not raised or slaughtered in respectful, clean or healthy conditions. Drive past a CAFO in the Midwest, visit a commercial poultry farm, do some objective research into rendering plants…. Not pleasant. On the other hand, buying grass-fed and grass-FINISHED humanely slaughtered meat cuts off the store shelf is cripplingly expensive and completely unrealistic for many.

If you attempt to tally up the number of animals that your dogs consume each year, it’s probably a pretty significant number.
A few years ago I went off the deep end and seriously attempted to reduce the commercially produced meat needed to feed my dog. I already had quite a few things going in my favor – lots of family and friends that either farm or hunt, or both. I already had experience raising different types of livestock. At the time, I was only worrying about feeding one adult dog. For about a year I made a serious, committed attempt to see just how much I could reduce my dog’s “meat footprint” without increasing expenses.

*What Worked:*

*Eggs*. I’ve kept laying chickens for over a decade, and eggs are staple in my dog’s diets. The chickens in turn are fed kitchen scraps, fruit and veggie rejects from the garden, all the free produce I can obtain (wormy apples, old squishy Halloween pumpkins, crabapples, etc), and more. They’re also provided a base layer feed, and I use brands that have vegetable protein sources – zero meat or feather meal, which I find revolting in poultry food. The chickens are one of the few things that definitely give more than they take, I have a mix of different breeds that are tough, long-lived, good mothers. 

*4H Auction Animals*. I make a point to bid on at least one, occasionally two, whole animals at the 4H Auction held annually at the summer fair. I’ve encountered some excellent hardworking kids. They exhibit their lamb/pig/calf for judging and during the live auction. The kids in my experience do a great job answering questions about how the animal was fed, housed, what its weight and best characteristics are, etc. Portions of what you spend, after covering costs, can be used by those kids for college, their first car, etc. When the animal goes to the processor, you can ask the processor to save all organs and “trim”, which yields great big bags of useful dog food at no additional charge. Absolute Win/Win.

*Hunting Friends* with Neglected Freezers. At certain times of the year, people around here clean out their freezers to make room for whatever it is they’re out stalking this year. Big chunks of deer? I’ll take it. Whole freezer-burned pheasant? Yes please. If you are cautious and freeze wild game for the recommended duration, and cook certain things (bear is one example), you’re feeding animals that lived a natural life and you can often obtain it at zero or minimal cost.

*What Sort-Of Worked, or Did Not Work* (for me):

*Forage & Fodder Fed Rabbits.* The point I realized I was taking my experiment a bit far was when I spent an entire Wisconsin winter raising heritage breed rabbits on a natural forage/sprouted fodder diet. Raising rabbits on pellets is expensive and counter-productive to sustainability, as you buy bag after bag after bag for the voracious critters. Forage, on the other hand, is free, and the process of sprouting turns one 50lb bag of sunflower seeds into hundreds and hundreds of pounds of healthy sprouts. It’s pretty easy in the summer. It’s incredibly difficult in the winter, keeping water crocks full and sprouting enough wheat/sunflower/oat seed. My kitchen looked like the Mad Scientist’s Sprout House lair, with dozens of shiny glass jars full of seeds in various stages of sprouting. Raising and breeding rabbits is easy, but at the end of the day… the amount of work required to generate one rabbit was staggering. And then, when you consider how VERY VERY many rabbits a raw-fed dog requires… not practical. I’m still sort of proud that I figured out how to do it, but the immense amount of time required just doesn’t fit into my current life. An interesting sidenote, however, I discovered that there is a thriving market for buckets of forage-fed rabbit poop. I posted on Craigslist and reliably SOLD OUT every single week, organic gardeners would bring buckets and pay me, all smiley and thrilled. Cash for poop. That was interesting, and actually generated a significant amount of money that offset the buying of more sprouting seed.

*Goats*. I’ve had goats for more than a decade. Bred them, sold them… I tried sucking it up and I had a few of them processed. It didn’t work for me mentally, I ended up giving away the meat to people that appreciated it. I still keep goats for brush control and large volume green composting, but I sold my last buck, kept does only, and don’t have plans to return to breeding in the foreseeable future. My next venture will involve more sheep, but that’s a story for another day.

So.

I’ve shared some thoughts, successes, failures, because I’m wondering how many of you also give thought to these matters. I’m sincerely interested in what you do, or things you’ve tried, that might reduce the resource footprint of your dog(s). Owning carnivores is one luxury that I’m not willing to give up, but I am very open to ideas.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think this is a very important topic. When we had our farm, our goal was to produce all of our own animal products, eggs, meat and dairy. We raised enough chickens for our family, eggs were plentiful enough to share with the dogs. When we butchered chickens, necks and organs went to the dogs but we never got big enough with the flock to actually feed the dogs.

We raised dairy goats and I have mentioned before how that turned out...and butchering them or their kids was not something I could do. I have contemplated trying again with meat goats up here, since you don't have to handle meat goats like you do dairy, they aren't tame and trusting like dairy herds are I think. I *might* be able to send those to slaughter, not sure.

My goal after feeding my family was to raise meat for the dogs. But as it turns out we sold the farm and although we have 40 acres, no livestock at this time (stay tuned).

I am struggling with keeping up with what is on my plate right now (no punn intended), and the effort of procuring all the meat like you described just doesn't seem feasible, also we left our huge awesome freezer with the farm when we sold it.

Dog food is nasty. In theory I believe in feeding raw but honestly wouldn't feel comfortable feeding factory farmed raw to my dogs, the bacteria on that meat is not "normal" in my opinion....

It is absolutely on my bucket list to raise meat for my dogs so they can eat real, healthy food. I have enough land to do it...just a matter of time I guess


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If feeding one dog, maybe two, or very small dogs, it is possible to raise your own. I have raised beef, chicken, pork, rabbit, turkey and eggs. The amount of animals and freezer space needed to feed 6 or more large dogs would be economically impossible for me. The land needed to raise grass fed is extensive, especially large animals. I do buy farm raised lamb and wish I could find an egg dealer around here. The ground products I buy, the tripe and then the duck necks I get are all grass fed, humanely slaughter, but, because of cost, I still have to feed commercially raised chicken, turkey and pork.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

How timely you are discussing this now, I was just talking about this with my sister.

I have multiple large dogs and right now I feed kibble, mostly for cost and convenience. 

I admit I am a total softie and hate taking any animal life. I was very sad when a bat I was tagging died of shock. I can't even bonk a salmon on the head to kill it when I am fishing- someone else has to do it and I have to cover my ears. Factory farms make me sick.

I've raised chickens for eggs, that is something I could do, but it seems that's not cost effective, when I can pick up a dozen eggs for sale from someone's local flock for $2.00 a dozen. 

I thought about raising goats for food but there is no way I could butcher an animal I knew. I have to be realistic. 

Rabbits, even, I don't know if I could kill them. 

Hunting, isn't my thing. I'd like to be able to hunt deer to feed my dogs as I think it is more humane than factory farms, but I couldn't stomach it. I have nothing against sustainable hunting, in fact I support it, I just personally can't do it. 

Yeah, I think about this a lot. I just don't know. 

Right now I am networking with local farms to pick up unwanted parts from slaughter. In future, when I have much more money coming in, I will probably go that way to feed my dogs raw. But right now, kibble it is. It's a tough deal but I simply can't afford the money or time to try to go the roadkill-hunt-local farm scraps route right now. The humans in our house eat local, organic meat, but the dogs eat kibble. It's the best I can do right now. Life requires taking life, of some kind.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Get dual purpose chickens. Once you have a rotating flock, you cull the older hens to the freezer as you add in a few new chicks. 

Raise broiler chicken. They are butchering size by 6-8 weeks. 

Muskeg, you can have someone else butcher for you fairly cheaply. I don't have time or desire to butcher my own, even though I can and have in the past.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I'm happy to see I'm not the only one that thinks about this. 
@Dainerra , on a small scale I do keep a dual purpose flock of chickens. I raised broiler (Cornish-X "meat birds") once, I will never do it again. They ate like pigs, but were lazy and completely stupid - beyond anything I've ever experienced with any breed of poultry. Several managed to drown themselves in the shallow water dish, the others would just lie around and get dirty, and beyond 6 weeks of age they barely moved. It was actually kind of horrifying.... 

My other struggles when I attempted to increase poultry production included feeding them. It takes hundreds of pounds of food to raise young birds, especially if you're trying to hit the right protein percentage. During the winter in particular, when there aren't bugs, I go through a lot of food. In theory, rabbits are a better choice, because they can thrive on green forage - which I have in abundance. I might give it another try next summer. Mathematically I would probably need the equivalent of 1.5 whole chickens each day - about 10 each week. A tall order, but not impossible.

Objectively, maybe I should be less sentimental toward my laying hens. I let the old ladies live to ripe old ages... my 5 and 6 year olds only lay about one or two eggs each week, but they're also my best mothers that set well and raise the next generation. The girls stay, the boys are either sold or eaten. I have three cockerels right now from this year's last hatch that really should go to freezer camp, but they haven't started fighting yet and I haven't gotten around to dealing with them.
@Thecowboysgirl , I understand the dilemma. I have one goat at the moment that will be buried when she dies. I know it's wasteful in a literal sense, but neither I nor my dogs will be eating that particular animal. I don't have particularly strong feelings about the other goats one way or another.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

@WIBackpacker I never raised cornishX (just exactly what are they crossed with lol), only heritage dual purpose birds. I heard stories just like yours from my homesteader friends. I was told they would lay in the sun and die of heat rather than go to the shade and get a drink. I think they are freaks, and it scares me that we eat that! You are what you eat or so they say.

I have seen them and the fat, helpless waddle combined with that they can't even breed normally, right? Because they can't even survive to full maturity, I don't think. That just doesn't seem right. Of my birds I liked the buff orpingtons the best, and I loved watching them raise their chickies.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @WIBackpacker I never raised cornishX (just exactly what are they crossed with lol), only heritage dual purpose birds. I heard stories just like yours from my homesteader friends. I was told they would lay in the sun and die of heat rather than go to the shade and get a drink. I think they are freaks, and it scares me that we eat that! You are what you eat or so they say.
> 
> I have seen them and the fat, helpless waddle combined with that they can't even breed normally, right? Because they can't even survive to full maturity, I don't think. That just doesn't seem right. Of my birds I liked the buff orpingtons the best, and I loved watching them raise their chickies.


Yep. Bingo.

I've raised dozens of chickens, pheasants, peacocks, pigeons, turkeys... I love my Brahmas that stomp around with their big feathery "boots", immune to winter. My plucky Ameraucanas that lay blue and green eggs. I have a crested Polish rooster at the moment that has as much personality as my cat. I bought a few Silver Phoenix hens this spring, they can fly like mallards. I nicknamed one hen "Charlie Darwin", she roosts 8' off the ground and lays her eggs up there - she is absolutely determined to be a mother and hatch sky-high baby chicks.

So yes, I was startled and very bothered by the Cornish X's I purchased and raised. They had no desire to hunt bugs and I saw absolutely zero evidence of hormonal "dancing" or breeding attempt behavior. I had to intervene daily to keep them from killing themselves by drowning or getting stuck somewhere or refusing to walk into the coop during downpours.... forget it. I've never had that kind of mortality rate with any other breed.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I had easter eggers but I didn't like them so much, they were very naughty. Always flying over fences to parts of the farm where I didn't want them and they would not lay in the coop, they would start these secret clutches everywhere and then lead the "good" birds astray. I would find a pile of 30 eggs under a faraway goat shed that were all rotten. I never had that problem before the easter eggers, the buffs and the reds were very well behaved  well, I would get an occasional egg in the goats' hay rack but nothing like the anarchy once the EEs moved in! Lol.

We wound up with bar yard mixes because I originally had 3 buffs, 3 reds, and a barred rock rooster. They all bred for 2 or 3 generations then we ate the roo because he almost killed my favorite hen overzealously breeding her when she came back from being in the "baby coop" with her latest clutch. He literally sliced and diced her and if my husband weren't an NP trained in suturing she would have died, he literally had to sew her back together, amazing we were able to save her. I really liked that roo up until then, he was a heck of a hawk fighter, but she was such a sweet hen I had no problem putting him in the pot for it.

Man, I miss my farm....


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I had easter eggers but I didn't like them so much, they were very naughty. Always flying over fences to parts of the farm where I didn't want them and they would not lay in the coop, they would start these secret clutches everywhere and then lead the "good" birds astray. I would find a pile of 30 eggs under a faraway goat shed that were all rotten. I never had that problem before the easter eggers, the buffs and the reds were very well behaved  well, I would get an occasional egg in the goats' hay rack but nothing like the anarchy once the EEs moved in! Lol.
> 
> We wound up with bar yard mixes because I originally had 3 buffs, 3 reds, and a barred rock rooster. They all bred for 2 or 3 generations then we ate the roo because he almost killed my favorite hen overzealously breeding her when she came back from being in the "baby coop" with her latest clutch. He literally sliced and diced her and if my husband weren't an NP trained in suturing she would have died, he literally had to sew her back together, amazing we were able to save her. I really liked that roo up until then, he was a heck of a hawk fighter, but she was such a sweet hen I had no problem putting him in the pot for it.
> 
> *Man, I miss my farm*....


It sure sounds like it. I hope the stars align so that you can get back to it, if you wish. 

Finding a "good" rooster is actually extremely difficult, isn't it? I had a picture-perfect Rhode Island Red that looked like a Disney character, he was good to the hens and also a great hawk-alert system. In his third year of life, he suddenly decided that I needed to die. I felt no remorse when his reign of terror ended. Rooster auditions are essentially The Hunger Games, Poultry Edition....


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

This is an interesting topic, and something close to my heart! However, I have to look at sustainability in a different way. I live in a major metropolitan. Postage stamp sized back yard and views of skyscrapers. No hunters or farms in the area. Small town home without the room for chest freezers so it's not feasible to make a few trips out past the miles of suburbs to stock up either. Our farmers markets basically all go by the big chain prices too. I'm simply stuck paying more if I want to do the most sustainable and healthiest choices for the pups.

Here's some stuff that I can do in my urban setting: 

Buying close to expiration date grassfed meats - As the expiration date gets closer stores usually start marking down prices. I'll keep my eyes on the date and try to grab some when they are a day or two away for a steep discount. I can get decent cuts for $2 -$3 a lb this way when it's normally in the $6 + range just for ground beef. 
Not enough volume to feed the dog using just this, way but it does help a bit. 

Urban Farming - I do believe that dogs should have some vegetation in their diet. Mostly in the form of greens. So I do grow micro greens and wheatgrass on my window sills year round. I have a few patio blueberry bushes that produce for me that the dog spent much of this season raiding. 

Off and on over the years I have had a little aquaponics system in a corner of my yard. If my dog would actually eat fish we might have some options there. 

Coturnix Quail - I have a few layer quail. In my city they do not fall under "livestock" they are considered an exotic/game bird. Meaning I can have them in my urban setting. Plus the noises they make blend right in with normal bird sounds so nosey neighbors are none the wiser. They are a bit more efficient at converting feed to meat than chickens, and they aren't as personable so slaughter is a bit easier. They're small enough that the birds can be processed over a kitchen sink. 

In the space I have I could produce enough quail and fish cost effectively to get maybe 100lb of meat per year. No where near enough, but there are some commercial products out there that you can rely on in good conscious... 

Ziwipeak - This is my go to "kibble". It's made from 100% all natural grassfed new zealand meats and sustainable seafood. It's an awesome product. No asian ingredients, lots of safety testing, includes organ meats, and best part - it's actually an air dried jerky so the heat sensitive nutrients and enzymes stay intact. It' raw in a bag. It looks pricey at first glance, but 1 oz of ziwi is the equivalent of 3oz of fresh meat, so it works out to be cheaper than grocery stores and even cheaper than ordering raw online. Plus it's shelf stable so freezer space is not an issue. It's also the PERFECT training treat. Dime sized, soft, and very palatable, and compared to other commercial training treats - more affordable. 

Open Farm - The first certified humane dog food on the market. A local pet store was giving out samples of this stuff not too long ago. The dog liked it. It's worth looking into if you care about your dog's food being raised kindly. The meat sourced for this kibble is raised without cages/stalls, allowed ample space for natural behaviors, and is provided with enrichment activities. They even have requirements for lighting cycles for natural sleeping patterns. It's pretty cool. 

Orijen/Acana - They have their free run poultry lines and purchase a lot of game meats. One of their sources for Acana is Clark Family Farms in KY here's a quick video so you can see how the meat is raised





Those are just the companies I know of off the top of my head. I am sure there are more out there, and keep in mind that certain animals do not lend well to factory farming in general. Bison, Venison and Lamb are amongst them. So picking a kibble that uses those as the primary meat source would be your best bet for healthy humanely raised meat. 

I do purchase from mypetcarnivore.com fairly frequently. Their beef is sourced from spent grassfed dairy cattle. They also have wild caught game available during trapping season. 

So that's pretty much where I'm at. Sorry environment.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

@voodoolamb I _love_ your post. 

You are doing some really awesome things. I respect the heck out of you for making an aquaponic system work. I dabbled with two small tanks (indoors) the same winter I embarked on the sustainable rabbit project. I had ideas of using feeder/breeder guppies as a supplementary winter protein source for the chickens, but my husband finally drew the line after the third round of snail escapes and the sounds of the aerators started driving us all mad.

If you ever take any pictures of your aquaponic and/or quail setup, I would love to see them (please PM!)


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> @voodoolamb I _love_ your post.
> 
> You are doing some really awesome things. I respect the heck out of you for making an aquaponic system work. I dabbled with two small tanks (indoors) the same winter I embarked on the sustainable rabbit project. I had ideas of using feeder/breeder guppies as a supplementary winter protein source for the chickens, but my husband finally drew the line after the third round of snail escapes and the sounds of the aerators started driving us all mad.
> 
> If you ever take any pictures of your aquaponic and/or quail setup, I would love to see them (please PM!)


The aquaponics system has been dismantled for the season and the quail aren't in anything special - Just an old rabbit hutch, but I can grab a pic tomorrow, too dark now. It feels good to produce just a little something ya know? And every bit counts. My aquaponics system is a couple 55 gallon barrels cut in half with floating plant beds on one side basically the Kratky hydroponics method but using the fish waste as the nutrient source and allowing the sun to penetrate the water for the fishes well being. I have to deal with algae but it's not too bad. I buy fingerlings in the spring and grow them out till the fall. then dismantle and toss everything in the crawlspace for the winter. I'm in the south east so tilapia do well for me. I've thought about setting up a indoor 55gal aquarium to spawn but no space.

Now I also keep and breed a variety of reptiles and tarantulas as a hobby - so I'm raising red wigglers, mealworms, and dubias. I actually don't spend much on game bird feed or fish food because I have enough insects for the quail and fish.

If you are looking for an easy, cheap protein source for the chickens, dubias are AWESOME. They are very very clean, and prolific animals. No smell. No noise. Can survive and breed well on kitchen scraps. Need to clean house every couple of months. A rubbermaid tote, a heat pad, some water crystals, and egg crates and you are in business. They are also one of the more nutritious feeder insects. Absolutely zero worry about escapees becoming an infestation as they need tropical conditions to breed. 

Duckweed is also something I've grown off and on. Super easy, high in protein and other nutrients. You can grow a ton of it in a kiddie pool during the summer and dry for winter use, or grow it fresh year round in an aquarium.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Hunger games, poultry edition LMAO!

We never found the perfect rooster. The barred rock was oustanding at protecting the flock. He didn't just watch and alert, he would fight and it was incredible. A huge hawk dive bombed the hens one day and that rooster leaped into the air, spurred him with both feet, and sent the hawk literally head over heels. Another day I heard a ruckus in the coop so I ran down to see what was wrong and a small hawk had gone in thru their trap door to try and get a meal. The roo ran in there when he heard his women in distress, he put them all in a corner in a bunch and stood in front of them. The poor hawk was actually trying to escape by the time we got there.

He was also nasty to us but we put up with it because we had a major hawk problem and wanted to free range the birds. We went into the coop with a broom to fend him off and you had to watch him MAN those spurs hurt.

Oh we should have had a reality show, we had The Bachelor, Poultry Edition. After Rocky we had a buff roo who was kind of useless, and then one day this handsome black interloper just showed up. He fought the buff and ran him off and wouldn't let him into his own coop. So I gave the buff away to someone. Then was the reign of Blackie (weren't we so creative with names). After awhilea other interloper showed up and there was more fighting but Blackie kept his kingdom.

Who knows where all these rooster came from!? I mean most everyone on our street had farm animals so I guess they just heard how good my organic food was and ran away from home to come live at our place


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> The aquaponics system has been dismantled for the season and the quail aren't in anything special - Just an old rabbit hutch, but I can grab a pic tomorrow, too dark now. It feels good to produce just a little something ya know? And every bit counts. My aquaponics system is a couple 55 gallon barrels cut in half with floating plant beds on one side basically the Kratky hydroponics method but using the fish waste as the nutrient source and allowing the sun to penetrate the water for the fishes well being. I have to deal with algae but it's not too bad. I buy fingerlings in the spring and grow them out till the fall. then dismantle and toss everything in the crawlspace for the winter. I'm in the south east so tilapia do well for me. I've thought about setting up a indoor 55gal aquarium to spawn but no space.
> 
> Now I also keep and breed a variety of reptiles and tarantulas as a hobby - so I'm raising red wigglers, mealworms, and dubias. I actually don't spend much on game bird feed or fish food because I have enough insects for the quail and fish.
> 
> ...


This is all stuff I researched but never got around to...really cool to hear.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> The aquaponics system has been dismantled for the season and the quail aren't in anything special - Just an old rabbit hutch, but I can grab a pic tomorrow, too dark now. *It feels good to produce just a little something ya know? And every bit counts. *My aquaponics system is a couple 55 gallon barrels cut in half with floating plant beds on one side basically the Kratky hydroponics method but using the fish waste as the nutrient source and allowing the sun to penetrate the water for the fishes well being. I have to deal with algae but it's not too bad. I buy fingerlings in the spring and grow them out till the fall. then dismantle and toss everything in the crawlspace for the winter. I'm in the south east so tilapia do well for me. I've thought about setting up a indoor 55gal aquarium to spawn but no space.
> 
> Now I also keep and breed a variety of reptiles and tarantulas as a hobby - so I'm raising red wigglers, mealworms, and dubias. I actually don't spend much on game bird feed or fish food because I have enough insects for the quail and fish.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes - definitely. I think the best percentage I've achieved to date was directly producing about 30-40% of what I fed the dog. May not sound like much, but it was a lot of work and I really believing in "walking the walk". Raising worms is farm more subtle and far less glamorous than buying a "Save The Rainforest" shirt made out of recycled water bottles, but at the end of the day I think the worm farming does more good.

Love the duckweed idea. We have a bumper crop in the irrigation pond at work, I may try and bring some in for e chicken's winter seaweed salad. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hunger games, poultry edition LMAO!
> 
> We never found the perfect rooster. The barred rock was oustanding at protecting the flock. He didn't just watch and alert, he would fight and it was incredible. A huge hawk dive bombed the hens one day and that rooster leaped into the air, spurred him with both feet, and sent the hawk literally head over heels. Another day I heard a ruckus in the coop so I ran down to see what was wrong and a small hawk had gone in thru their trap door to try and get a meal. The roo ran in there when he heard his women in distress, he put them all in a corner in a bunch and stood in front of them. The poor hawk was actually trying to escape by the time we got there.
> 
> ...


Isn't that the truth? The passage of time can be measured by the passage of roosters. My all time favorite was a big Brahma named Peter. One of his random endearing traits was his afternoon sonnet - he crowed every single day at 3pm. I raised up and attempted to keep two of his sons, hoping they would be as awesome as their sire.... Nope. One was nasty and repeatedly tried to attack our cats, the other was useless. Off to freezer camp they went.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

I enjoy reading these kinds of discussions, as I think knowing where your food came from, and how it was raised and/or harvested is a key part of life that far too many people have chosen to ignore or neglect in our high-tech, fast-paced society.

I really do enjoy eating from and supporting the local food network, which means that I hunt and harvest as much meat as I can every fall and try to buy at least some of my goods from local farmers. However, as much as I enjoy hunting, I don't have the time to fulfill all of my meat requirements that way. And the local farmers don't always have the food I am looking for, so buying from the big-name corporate food companies is inevitable, as it likely is for most Americans. I don't like putting money into the factory-farming/livestock system, but it seems to be a necessary evil at times.

Same goes for how I feed my dog. If I can get some poultry from a local market or if I can give him a bit of venison scrap, I will. But for the most part, I'm buying dog food from the local pet store....I couldn't tell you where the meat comes from.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Freezer camp lol. Havent heard that in a few years


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Off and on over the years I have had a little aquaponics system in a corner of my yard. If my dog would actually eat fish we might have some options there.


I used to have a koi pond. My neighbor's Golden Retriever always came over and helped her self.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> *I enjoy reading these kinds of discussions, as I think knowing where your food came from, and how it was raised and/or harvested is a key part of life that far too many people have chosen to ignore or neglect in our high-tech, fast-paced society.*
> 
> I really do enjoy eating from and supporting the local food network, which means that *I hunt and harvest as much meat as I can every fall *and try to buy at least some of my goods from local farmers. However, as much as I enjoy hunting, I don't have the time to fulfill all of my meat requirements that way. And the local farmers don't always have the food I am looking for, so buying from the big-name corporate food companies is inevitable, as it likely is for most Americans. I don't like putting money into the factory-farming/livestock system, but it seems to be a necessary evil at times.
> 
> Same goes for how I feed my dog. If I can get some poultry from a local market or if I can give him a bit of venison scrap, I will. But for the most part, I'm buying dog food from the local pet store....I couldn't tell you where the meat comes from.


:thumbup: Agree, very much. 

I think when you attempt to produce _some_, it makes you appreciate the bigger picture. I'm hoping my family members all have great luck during gun deer season this year - for the sake of all of our freezers.  On the other hand, I have every intention of stocking up on whole frozen turkeys from the regular ol' grocery store when they hit bargain-basement prices in the next few weeks.

Good luck to you this hunting season!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I got 20 lbs of frozen pork bones today from a farmer after butcher. Does anyone know about safety in feeding these to dogs? I am freezing them for at least two weeks, but I know trichinosis can be a concern. I will use these just to supplement kibble, not for meals. Just looking for input on pork bones, as I got these locally and can get them again if it works out. Taking small steps!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I've been feeding pork bones for a year or more and haven't experienced any problems.

I get various random bones cut in chunks, also hearts, ears etc. Have heard weight bearing bones are too hard but I've never seen dogs crack there teeth on the pig leg bones so I think they are fine.

These bones are cheap approx 1 euro a kilo or per 2 pounds. I buy bags of chicken liver/hearts/gizards, cow tripe, chicken wings etc. I just pick a cheap kibble like a mixer with no coloring and feed that 4 times a week and raw 3 times a week. Turns out cheap as chips. 

I think we have to just accept humans waist is a dogs feast. Sustainability is like a romantic vision, but home grown is still the best all round, like home cooking/ taste wise imo. It's almost a privilege these days to be sustainable or grow/raise all your own food. It's also a lot of work.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I keep seeing ads for Open Farm Ethically Sourced dog food. Finally looked over their website. Not the best but better than nothing.

Too bad my dog is doing good on his food and I am not risking screwing him up to change right now...I might consider it


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This past week I was given 2 turkeys and about 15 pounds of venison(freezing for a month). One of the guys that works for me processes deer, so he brings in whatever is left over. I should have a nice amount by the end of the season.


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