# Need help (long)



## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

I have been faced with a unique challenge. One I have never encountered. I have a wonderful male gsd that is about 15 months old. He has been a great dog up until recently. About a month ago he started getting very upset with the neighbor dogs. In his defense, he is surrounded by 4 aggressive dogs. I have done everything short of putting up a privacy fence (can't afford it) to keep them from seeing each other. I might add that these neighbors just recently moved in. He is now very apprehensive when he is outside and he gets scared easily. Now, when he spends time at other family members home he is absolutely fine. Calm, confident, friendly, doesn't bark at anyone, etc... But here at home he has become a different dog. Recently, he got in a scuffle with the neighbor dogs and I got in the middle of it (stupid me). When pulling my dog away I got bit. It was bad enough that I had to go to the hospital. 
I don't believe that my dog is aggressive. I think he was in defense mode and I got in the middle of it. Since the incident I have left him with family. I think that this is going to be a permanent solution (although I hate not having him here with me). I was just wondering if anyone has any opinions about this. Obviously something happened that made him scared at home. I don't know what to think or how to feel about this. Constructive Comments would be appreciated.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Do you have a fence? Is it the noise or the sight of the dogs?


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

Yes, I do have a regular chain link fence. My boy is fine when he sees them. However, the other dogs charge the fence and will literally put their nose in the fence and snap at him. He reacts to their behavior. I cannot let him go outside by himself now. I just think it's odd that he acts one way here and when he is removed from this environment he is fine.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Just a suggestion and may not work and looks ugly but here goes.Can you put a tarp up to block the dogs.I had to do this for a couple of weeks while working with Athena on her dog aggression.She is actually scared of other dogs and I had to block her from seeing the neighbors dogs to get her in a calmer state to work with her.
He is probably stressed and scared and once removed she can be herself.Just a suggestion to maybe have it work out to have him back.This can be a scary age for them.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

Actually, I just did that the other day. He hasn't really been home to see if it will do the trick. I have had some tell me that I should put him down because of the incident. Again, I don't feel that he was being aggressive to me. I asked the vet and she didn't seem to worry. He has been there a lot both for illness and to be boarded and they have never, ever seen him display any questionable behavior. I just worried and scared. I don't want anything to happen to him


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

What signs is he giving that he is scared? I think the tarp would be a great solution. There are also strips you can wear into a chain link fence. (Not sure what something like this costs though) You might also want to take him out on a leash or long lead, make him understand that you are controlling the situation and that he has nothing to be afraid of.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Quote: I have had some tell me that I should put him down because of the incident.


Why - becuase he bit you by mistake when you were trying to break up a fight? Who ever told you that was a fool. 

I had to put up privacy fence last summer becuase of my new neighbor's terrier barking constantly in my face. Otto is a few months younger than the terrier and I wasn't having these puppies fence fighting. On the other side, they had a shepherd collie mix who got along wonderfully with my dogs. Then they got a yap yap yap border collie puppy - so I put up Fence Weave. It's a pretty economical solution and wasn't hard to do.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I highly doubt he needs to be put down.He is young and got caught up in the moment and you were there.I have had Athena nip at my knee a few times because it was there when she lunged at another dog.As long as he doesn't show any other signs he will be fine. Could you consult a behaviorist to get it under control while it is fresh? He may need to build his confidence a little more.He is still young and needs to grow.Keep us updated.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

We must of posted at the same time but there is no way I would put my dog down after an incident like the one you described. You getting bit was an accident, not aggression.

Sending your pup away might help the problem, but it wont solve it.


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## VectorSketcher (Jul 20, 2008)

Well, if this was the first incident and if he was in defense mode, I really don't agree with the suggestion of having him put down. Obviously something is bugging him about his environment, and maybe it is just the fact the neighbors dogs are constantly charging the fence at him. I think Allie gave some great advice, and I would try and see how the tarp thing works for you. You have joined a great forum here, lots of people with years of experience, I am sure someone else will have more insight to your situation.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Another thing to try when you get him home is to do training near the barking dogs.Have him on a leash and have yummy treats by the ton and just sit there and treat him as he listens to the other dogs.He'll associate them being obnoxious with yummy treats or even try playing his favorites games while there barking.I have gotten Athena a lot better with dogs being in sight by using the I get yummy treats when I see a dogs game..She isn't play group quality but I can walk past dogs in yards without being taken for a run or taken down in the road......


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

One last thing,I don't recall seeing pictures of this dog so you must post some...We are picture crazy on here....


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## gsdsrule (Apr 10, 2009)

Run an electric wire on their side of your fence.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

I agree with what all of you have said. I have consulted a recommended trainer and he thinks that he can help the situation he also said that I will need to be careful with him. That I won't be able to "trust" him.

I know sending him away won't solve the problem but has become a different dog here. He's very edgy and barks at everything. A month ago he could stay outside all day (he never wanted to come in) and I didn't have to worry about him. Now, I have to go out with him all the time and he just can't hang out if the other dogs are out.. My city is very tough with big dogs and I'm fearful that I will be held liable if something happens to the neighbor dogs or something. Even though he isn't the cause.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

How is he with other dogs? It sounds like they scare him and he is reacting to it with aggression.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

Well, he is great with my parents dogs. The dogs that are in the surrounding yards at my parents house he is also okay with. 

So, you feel that he is still young enough to work with and if this is fear based aggression that there is hope providing I get him working with a trainer?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Athena just turned 14 months old.I have been working with her for a few months now.A good trainer/behaviorist can tell you his problem and most likely be able to work with it.Depending on his line he may not fully mature for another year or 2. If he is fine with other dogs you have a good chance of fixing him.I think these dogs just stress him way too much or he is being territorial and with there charging he is getting ticked off at.Either way find a good trainer and get working on him.My dog I don't have high hopes of her ever playing with any dog besides her sister and maybe if we got a puppy that grew up with her.I really should have taken action as soon as I saw a problem but I didn't and it may have cost us a world of playdates.....Good Luck


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

Thank you for your time...I truly appreciate it


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: warmhavenI agree with what all of you have said. I have consulted a recommended trainer and he thinks that he can help the situation he also said that I will need to be careful with him. That I won't be able to "trust" him.


I would run, run, run from this trainer. What your dog did was an absolutely natural response. He is a dog after all! Based on your description of his current emotional state at your house, I would say you definitely need to work with a behaviorist who uses counter-conditioning and positive reinforcement. If you start using harsh methods/corrections with your dog then it will make him worse and could cause serious problems. 

You also need to figure out a way to make his backyard safe and to build his confidence while he's home with you. What kind of training have you done with him? The first step would be establishing yourself as a fair and confident leader who he looks to for protection. I would take him out in the backyard to use the bathroom and then take him somewhere else to walk/exercise until you can get the backyard situation under control. He needs to feel safe.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

He is still a puppy! Taking a chunk out of you was not offensive aggression, more likely over arousal. 

Putting him down would be a terrible mistake. He is prabably a bit weak nerved but a good positive trainer can help you work on that. Try the tarp. Please DO NOT use electricity for fear aggression. IT WILL backfire.

Start saving your $$$ for privacy fencing.

If you would post your general area perhaps someone will know a good trainer for you.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Think we posted at the same time Ruth but you have a great idea about pottying on leash and going elsewhere for exercise.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

I would never use the electric fence idea. However, I am upset that my neighbors don't care what's going on with their dogs. 
Before the tarp was put up I was taking him out on his leash to go potty. When I got bit it was like 2am and I didn't think the other dogs were outside so although I went with him I didn't leash him. Big mistake. 
I will admit this..I don't think he sees me as the alpha. I don't really know how to change that. I am his primary care giver. He tends to gravitate more towards men. He will do anything for my dad Any suggestions on how to be the boss?
Please don't think I'm stupid. I'm a good mom and I care deeply about my boy. I can't imagine my life without him. I just need some help getting through this difficult time. I've never had any problems with previous dogs.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

We don't think you're stupid! This type of situation could happen to anyone and I'm sure it's incredibly stressful for both you and for your dog. 

I would start here: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

I would find a behaviorist/training who will work with you and your dog. I would also look for a place to take classes with him so that you can learn together. 

You will have to rearrange things in your head a bit so that you believe that you CAN protect him and he knows that you will protect him. I would start doing simple, reward-based OB work at home several times throughout the day. One great command is to teach your dog to go behind you. My dog Rafi knows the command "Back" so that when he is off leash or in a situation that I perceive as dangerous I can give the command and he will go around behind me. That establishes my leadership in a physical, safe and non-threatening way. 

If you haven't already, I would also start reading some dog training and behavior books. Dogwise.com is a great place to start. 

Patricia McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash" is a wonderful book to start with. Suzanne Clothier's "And Bones will Rain from the Sky" is another good one. I also like Pat Miller's books.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks, I will start looking into some of those.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Warmhaven,

The most important thing you need to walk away from this post knowing is that YOUR DOG DID NOTHING WRONG. YOU DID NOTHING "WRONG". Do you need to handle him a bit differently? Sure. Do you need to compensate for a trailer park moving in next to you? Sure. Do you need to find a different trainer than the one that said you could never trust your dog? YES. The bottom line here is that your dog got attacked repeatedly on his own property. You could have had him 100% trained and still you could have gotten bit in that situation. He is very young, and now he feels that he needs to fight for his life in his own back yard. Quite literally. He did not "turn on you", you got in the way of redirected aggression in the heat of the moment. IF YOU CAN GET PAST THIS AND REMAIN CALM AND IN CONTROL - SO CAN HE. I would...

1. Start exactly where Ruth recommends above. Get him into the mindset that he follows you in all situations.

2. Train, train, train. Focus on obedience, and have a blast doing it both at a training class and AWAY FROM YOUR BACK YARD. Once you have got the NILF down, and he is progresing nicely in OB THEN you can start to work with him in the back yard again - with the tarp.

3. If money is tight, start buying one section of privacy fence at a time from Home Depot or Menards and posts. It's only on one side, and you already have a fence. See if a family friend or local handyman would put up the fence little by little. I can dig two post holes by hand and set a piece of fence in about an hour total - and I am not exactly a great handyman. At all. A piece of fence cost $50 at most, and little by little before you know it you could have a partial privacy fence that stops your issues. Just a thought.


Good luck.


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## JenniferH (Oct 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: warmhaven Recently, he got in a scuffle with the neighbor dogs and I got in the middle of it (stupid me). When pulling my dog away I got bit. It was bad enough that I had to go to the hospital.




I was just curious how he got into a scuffle in his own yard if you have a fence. Did the neighbor dogs jump your fence?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD I can dig two post holes by hand and set a piece of fence in about an hour total - and I am not exactly a great handyman. At all. A piece of fence cost $50 at most, and little by little before you know it you could have a partial privacy fence that stops your issues. Just a thought.


I'm not a man but I'm fairly handy for a skinny short woman. My sons (5 and 3 1/2 last summer) installed our stockade fence just the 3 of us. Littler boy dug the holes, bigbrother helped me put the sections in place. My neighbor came over to help me put in the tricky section where it had to squeeze in between 2 sections of chain link and fit behind a pole. 

Home depot doesn't have stockade online but I think it goes for about $20 for a 6' high, 8' long section. Posts are about $12. Only trouble I had was borrowing a truck to get it home - wasn't driving with it on the roofrack of my station wagon.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

No, no one jumped the fenced. However, the four dogs all had their noses in between the chain links. My boy went up to them and two of them interlocked their snouts. Then my boy got stuck in the link. So, here I am trying to get him unstuck, the other dogs are biting at both of us, he's yelping, and I get him free and he's in defense mode and literally takes a chunk out of me.


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## warmhaven (Jul 16, 2009)

John, 

I appreciate your post. I do not intend to give up easily. I love my boy and we would be heartbroken if we lost him. I like your ideas and I will certainly try to accomplish these things. 

I may be doing him an injustice and not training him the "right way" and maybe he doesn't think I'm the boss. However, this no way implies that he is not a good dog or that I don't know how to take care of him. He's loved and well taken care of. He's been a sickly dog and I have spent more than I can afford at trying to get him better. I love him and that's why I have asked you for help. Sorry I'm babbling. I'm just a little overwhelmed and uncertain of the future.
Thanks for your encouraging words.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

When I was a little kid I was playing balance beam on some old pieces of wood. I stepped down and a nail went up through my shoe and sunk deep into my heel. I screamed and put the other foot down - right on another nail, went through into the ball of my foot. 

My sister came running to help and I punched her in the face.

I reacted. Out of fear and pain. I was scared out of my wits, I panicked and I reacted.

Your dog did the exact same thing.

Before I give my $.02 on how to work with your dog I would say you need to address the neighbor issue. You say they don't seem to care that their dogs are charging the fence.

Next time you take your dog out in YOUR yard and their dogs go off like that - call the police. You have every RIGHT to be able to spend time in your backyard without being harassed by the thug dogs next door.

I would also run a hose out to the back yard and be ready to nail those dogs is they go off. Water won't hurt them but it might make them think twice about charging your fence.

Is the fence yours or the neighbors? Who's property does it sit on? If it's on YOUR property it's YOUR fence - even if the neighbors put it up.

If it's YOUR fence I would either buy the slats to fit in the chain link (http://www.yourfencestore.com/slatchoice.htm) or the tarps. If it's not your fence I would look at putting up another fence inside your property line. You could do a inexpensive welded wire livestock fencing (easy to do yourself) and then plant some tall grasses or bushes in between the two fences to block their view.

Back to your dog. How does he react around OTHER dogs? I would start getting him out around other dogs and making sure he doesn't associate ALL other dogs with that incident.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I have 6 foot privacy fence and they can still have fence fights, my solution, the garden hose turned high and I make sure it goes through the fence as well as getting my guys. It's amazing how it reinforces my command. And my dogs love the hose and sprinkler but not when used as correction. They stop, and most of the time so does the other dog, if you have managed to get them good too. I do tell the neighbors their dog was hit accidentally.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

A tarp will help some. I was in a rental a few years back & put up a tarp on the side with the dog. Might have looked like crap but it made control a lot easier. 

Another thing you can do that is cheap and easy and will keep the dogs seperate is to get some cheap metal poles and a sledge hammer to set them, put them up several feet inside the chain link fence & string up some other fencing. (Orange construction fencing or green garden fencing would look better - or cheap hog wire type fencing) You could then put tarps on that - alone or as well. 

For getting him comfortable, do your set up then get your lawn chair, a glass of lemonade, a book, sun glasses and the dog and dog lead - and dog treats. Keep your dog on lead with you. Be happy (jolly) when the other dogs come out and reward your dog just for those dogs being out. Turn their noise into a positive thing for him -- they act stupid, he gets rewarded.

No, you don't need to put your dog down, this is not a trust issue. It was an honest mistake on his part.


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## meisha98 (Aug 27, 2008)

Home Depot has the slats you can weave yourself through the chain link to create privacy fencing. You can also order them online. I prefer the aluminum slats, but whatever works for you. Good luck.


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## KohleePiper (Jun 13, 2007)

I was in the same situation with irresponsible old neighbors. They have two chihuaha / pomeranian mixes that bark non stop and fence fight. My neighbors are seniors and won't train their dogs (I dont think they even know how) and actually told me to squirt them with water. I didn't want to do that so I decided if I wanted the fighting/barking to stop I needed to train their dogs.

So basically, I got cookies (tiny ones for small dogs) and started training them to be quite. I wanted them to recognize me as something good and associate my dogs as a positive situation. I started saying "quiet" and once they stopped barking (even for a second) and had their attention on me I rewarded them with a cookie. It took 3-4 months and I almost gave up and thought nothing could change these dogs when it finally started working. Now I can go outside and the dogs still run down to the fence but they sit quietly now and my dogs have peace. There's no more fence fighting and the barking is gone!


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