# Prong collar



## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Maya is just about 4 months old. She has been going to puppy class at PetSmart for several weeks now, and we are signed up for a pre-basic class through the Syracuse Obedience Training Club starting in a few weeks. 

Despite our attempts and early socialization, starting last week Maya began displaying reactive aggression toward people walking or jogging by our house, and dogs out for a walk with their owners. She puts her hackles up, barks, growls, and lunges toward them. So today I had a session with a recommended Behaviorist and Certified Trainer. He has loads of experience with German Shepherds, and used to train them to become police dogs. He also did search and rescue and brought one of his GSD down to Ground Zero after 9/11.

He mainly taught me many helpful things for how to go about teaching Maya where she sits in the pecking order. Despite my efforts, his assessment is that she doesn't buy it that I'm the leader and she can take her cues from me, and so gets anxious about having to protect us from anything new or strange. He got to see first hand how she reacted to his arrival, as well as some neighbors walking their dog by. 

In addition, he recommends keeping a prong collar and leash on her at all times she is out of the crate. Like, until she is 18 months old. I took her for a walk with the prong collar later in the day after working on our focus exercise, and she did amazing! We even came across a woman wearing a hood and sunglasses walking her pitbull, and even though Maya started off hackles raised and barking up a storm, we went over for a meet and greet and both dogs ended up doing really well. Tails were wagging, everybody was happy. 

I noticed the pitbull (an adult) had a prong collar on too and joked about how I didn't have to feel so bad about having one on my dog. She proceeded to tell me about this great trainer they had worked with in the past, and how well it had worked for her dog. It ended up being the same trainer 

Doing a search about prong collars on this forum, I see that some people think 4 months is too young to start using one (not to mention the people who don't approve of their use in regular training at all). I got the impression this trainer used it for all of his dogs, from the times they were puppies onward. He did mention, though, that the fact Maya was starting to act that aggressively at such a young age indicated we needed to nip this in the bud before we were in big trouble, so maybe that is why he recommended it. 

In addition to general thoughts on the regular use of prong collars as a training tool, I specifically am looking for information on how the collar is supposed to sit. He taught us about how you remove the links to size it so that it rests just below their ears. However, I find that, once the leash is attached, the prongs swing down so that they're at her throat, not the nape of her neck. But I don't think it would fit her at all if we removed another link. Is there some way to fix this issue, or is she just kind of between sizes at the moment?

Thanks in advance for any help with positioning the prongs


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

The trainer was very impressed with her, though. She picked things up very quickly once we tried his methods.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

J-Boo said:


> Despite my efforts, his assessment is that* she doesn't buy it that I'm the leader and she can take her cues from me, and so gets anxious about having to protect us from anything new or strange.* He got to see first hand how she reacted to his arrival, as well as some neighbors walking their dog by.


This is such a load of crap. I get so tired of seeing this from trainers. Alpha blah blah blah, stick a prong on it.

She's simply going thru a fear period. Seger did about that age to. I put a nylon choke on him. When he reacted, I took his air away for a second. Problem solved. It took ONCE. Don't make a big deal out of things. When she's reacted, act like it's a party and take her right up to whatever she's reacting too. I found that as soon as I put my hand on something, it was Seger's cue to know it was ok.

Put the prong down. How about building a relationship with her? I've had a prong on Seger for obedience since he was 4-5 months old. But it wasn't used as correction! We did a ton of shaping behaviors. He's had very few actual corrections in his life. Teach her what you want her to do, shape it. Don't just slap a prong on her for corrections until she 2.

If you can PM me the name of that trainer, I can check with the people I know for another suggestion and most likely find out more about this person.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I've had a prong on Seger for obedience since he was 4-5 months old. But it wasn't used as correction! We did a ton of shaping behaviors. He's had very few actual corrections in his life.


Can you explain to me what this entails? Having a prong on him but not used as correction?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

IMHO 4 months is too young for a prong. Though I am glad it seemed to work. 

Based on your OP, your pup sounds like she is going through a VERY VERY common phase that I, personally, warn all new GSD owners about. Their wonderful sweet friendly pups turn 4/5/6 months old and suddenly start acting like the vicious people and dog killing machines. 

Yes, it's an issue. But, again in my experience, it's not a definitive sign of problems with the dog or your relationship. At this age pups are growing up, their "protective" instinct kicks in but their brain has no idea how to read and identify a true threat. So the get all puffy, they bark, they lunge, they act like fools. 

Best thing, and I have gone through it myself, is to lead by example and let them know that there is nothing to worry about. 

For example, out for a nice walk, pup sees someone walking toward you, ears perk, hackles come up. BEFORE pup goes off, redirect, stay calm, no big deal. Change direction, get attention and move on. Your pup is learning from you what to react to. If you show her now what is normal and move on like nothing is wrong, she will learn to evaluate the situation and make better decisions. 

I would not have her approach other dogs. It's not necessary. She has to move forward with you and ignore them. 

I am not against prong collars. I use them on all my dogs. They are a valuable tool. I hesitate to use one to fix a problem that is not evaluated and understood correctly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Almost 4 months old? 

Agree with Jax08, load of doo doo. The puppy is going through fear period -- hackles raised -- not protecting you at all.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for your input, everybody. 

On another note, Maya is nipping me all the time. I try all the things I've read about - giving her a toy to bite instead, turning my back and ignoring her for a moment, even holding her muzzle shut and grabbing the nape of her neck, which many people suggest and just as many people say will make the problem worse.

None of these methods has worked so far. If I have a regular collar on her, would a correction with a tug on the leash work in place of the prong collar?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Be like Jeff! Not directly applicable but worth viewing and listening to. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo

And some things you should know can be found here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And if you keep fooling around with "I thought my dog was friendly folks...sooner or later what this guys says will make a lot more sense and the "How to break up a dog fight" won't seem like a waste of time! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3c5X8wCzc0&feature=youtu.be

Personally I train with a slip leash myself, but that's me.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Biting, nipping, mouthyness, bratty back talking, all normal for a GSD pup of her age. No one method works to stop it first go. Pick a method you like and stick with it. I used redirection and a "eep" from me when it got painful. It takes a while. Your girl is not even 4 months old. It takes time. Be patient. This too shall pass. Good dogs are born. They are made.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sure, you can yank her collar when she play bites and tries to engage you. That isn't going to build a bond with her though. She's a baby. Yes those baby teeth hurt. Take your hands out of the equation. Place her in her safe spot. Stop whatever game immediately. Teach her the GENTLE command. 

This is normal baby-GSD behavior. Maybe you could return this pup to your breeder and get a dog that is already 3-4 years old from a rescue. You would have a much better idea of temperament that way.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Gah, this gets so confusing! A lot of these suggestions are the things I had learned to try before. I'd read that nipping is normal and you aren't supposed to stop it, just teach them how hard is too hard. But then I hear that there is never an excuse for letting the puppy get away with doing this. So many differing philosophies!

I'm new to this, so have been trying to learn all I can about how to go about raising a GSD puppy. Even so far as hiring a highly recommended trainer and behaviorist who specializes with the breed, only to find out that almost everybody here disagrees with his assessments and methods. So I'm just as confused as ever!

I guess all that can be done is consistently follow a method that makes sense to you, modify as needed and find what works, so that next time you have your own proven method. 

Maya is by no means a bad dog, it's just hard getting so much well-meaning advice about how to go about her training, but so much of it conflicting! 

I appreciate the input, but suggesting that people who post questions here either rehome or return their dog comes across as super arrogant. But of course tone and intention can get lost in text over the internet, so maybe it's not meant that way. This is my first dog. Today was the first day ever I used a prong collar at the recommendation of someone known in the area as a reputable trainer, a method I am aware not everyone agrees with. The fact that I ask for help and advice in training doesn't mean I should only ever own a dog that had already been trained by someone else.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Last piece of advice. The only thing one trainer and second trainer agree on is what the third trainer is doing wrong. 

So yes. Pick a method you like, that you can follow and that you trust and learn along the way. You will make mistakes. It's s given. No one does it right the first time. Heck no one gets it right the second time. You just hope you don't make the same mistakes twice. I have learned with each dog. I am still learning. I am still making mistakes. 

Find someone you like and trust that has achieved what you want to achieve. 

Above all. Have fun. Laugh at your pups antics, take LOTS of pics and enjoy the journey.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

So to clarify, most of you recommend continuing to work on issues in the home (biting, chasing the cat, jumping on the children) with redirecting and also keeping a leash with a regular collar on her any time she is out of the crate to help prevent the unwanted behaviors in the first place? And continuing obedience, of course.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Last piece of advice. The only thing one trainer and second trainer agree on is what the third trainer is doing wrong.
> 
> So yes. Pick a method you like, that you can follow and that you trust and learn along the way. You will make mistakes. It's s given. No one does it right the first time. Heck no one gets it right the second time. You just hope you don't make the same mistakes twice. I have learned with each dog. I am still learning. I am still making mistakes.
> 
> ...


Thank you! This is definitely what I have come to find!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, try to do what works with dog #1 with dog #2 and learn that dog #2 is totally different from dog #1. This does not mean either is defective. Just different. Different methods work better with different dogs. Sometimes the second one is easier because we know what to expect, and some of what worked with the first does apply. 

But yeah, lots of mistakes with the second dog too. 

Relax, have fun, and try not to put her into a death grip when you see other people and dogs. Try to keep the leash loose. Try to stay calm. Act before she reacts. Keep moving, "it's just a dog" and keep on going. Don't spend too much time on any one thing. Don't lose your cool. Try not to push her too close to things she is fearful of. Just move on, and try not to make a big deal over anything. "It's bag. It's a flag. It's a cat. It's a car." 

With patience, perserverence, and consistency, in another 9 years she will be the best dog in the neighborhood. 

Good luck.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> Yes, try to do what works with dog #1 with dog #2 and learn that dog #2 is totally different from dog #1. This does not mean either is defective. Just different. Different methods work better with different dogs. Sometimes the second one is easier because we know what to expect, and some of what worked with the first does apply.
> 
> But yeah, lots of mistakes with the second dog too.
> 
> ...


Thanks 

Wait, 9 years?!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J-Boo said:


> Thanks
> 
> Wait, 9 years?!


It's kind of a natural logarithm. e^-t/tou. 

You will see a LOT of improvement the first year. Then she will improve more in the second year than she will in the third, and by the 4th year she's darn near perfect already, but then she will still improve in the fifth, and so forth. It's not linear. 

But yeah, the journey lasts a number of years. And one day you wake up and see the old girl there, and realize, wow! she's the best, she's the best dog in the neighborhood. She's the best dog anywhere. It's not the destination, it's the journey.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> I appreciate the input, but suggesting that people who post questions here either rehome or return their dog comes across as super arrogant. But of course tone and intention can get lost in text over the internet, so maybe it's not meant that way.


 Yeah sometimes things get "twisted!"

If I saw it? I paid no attention to it. Not because in some cases it's not good advice but for "you" it seemed out of place! Clearly you're not clueless so forget that and let's move on! 



J-Boo said:


> This is my first dog. Today was the first day ever I used a prong collar at the recommendation of someone known in the area as a reputable trainer, a method I am aware not everyone agrees with. The fact that I ask for help and advice in training doesn't mean I should only ever own a dog that had already been trained by someone else.


 I don't use a prong myself, I try not to use any tools save for a slip leash. The reason for that is because if you use a tool you first have to understand how to use it and you then have to apply what you think you understand to your dog!

I say why "add" a step I train a loose leash with a Slip leash, I feel that gives a better understanding between the dog and the owner and if you can do that..you can pretty much walk "any" dog! It works for me!

But I did not address "your" use of the prong "because" you did get help and instructions on the proper use of that "tool!' 

The links I listed are all things I feel every dog owner should be aware of! Some show how do things and you don't need a trainer to do them...the KISS principle in action!

These days it's information overload, avoiding mistakes or creating "new" problems is also a big part of it!

Hence "my" numerous warnings about" Dog Parks" and "I thought my Dog was friendly people." That advise is pretty much "SOP" for me and it's what I always advise!

The prong as long as you "understand" how to use it properly, go for it, I don't but if I ever run across "that" dog...then I will learn how to use a prong properly! It's all about learning! 


And sigh...gonna add a couple more links:
The "Place Command":
Why the “Place” Command is So Important and Your Dog Should Know It! : TheDogTrainingSecret.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

"Every" dog should know this!

Oh and this for dogs that specialize in being "uh" problematic to train!
Boxer Dog Training

...welcome aboard!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> chasing the cat, jumping on the children)


Aww crap! I'm "trying" to stop but yeah cats and dogs are kinda my thing!

Cats:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/531058-cats-smell-like-cookies.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6614082-post4.html

Jumping:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6615602-post108.html

So yeah lots of stuff..sorry!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

J-Boo said:


> I appreciate the input, but suggesting that people who post questions here either rehome or return their dog comes across as super arrogant. But of course tone and intention can get lost in text over the internet, so maybe it's not meant that way. This is my first dog. Today was the first day ever I used a prong collar at the recommendation of someone known in the area as a reputable trainer, a method I am aware not everyone agrees with. The fact that I ask for help and advice in training doesn't mean I should only ever own a dog that had already been trained by someone else.


Actually, the dog is almost 4 months old and acting like a pretty typical GSD puppy. So far you have socialized extensively, and have called in a high power trainer who has advised you to use a prong collar on the puppy which you were happy to do. I did not give this response after that first post. We have all been led astray by people we thought should know better to some extent. 

But after that first posting, then you went and asked about typical puppy nipping, and whether you should yank on her collar. 

At this point, I am hearing someone who really likes to yank on this puppy. And you seem to be having trouble, and are quick to go for the big guns, maybe you would be better off with an adult dog as your first dog, and give this puppy back. 

So, I think you got my tone correctly. Sorry, but I raise them up to eight weeks before letting someone take their fuzzy butts home. Sometimes I raise them longer. Doesn't matter really. I don't like hearing people being that anxious to correct their dog by yanking them on any sort of collar. The dog is not quite 4 months old. It's not arrogant, it just coming from another perspective. We actually care about the little critters.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Actually, the dog is almost 4 months old and acting like a pretty typical GSD puppy. So far you have socialized extensively, and have called in a high power trainer who has advised you to use a prong collar on the puppy which you were happy to do. I did not give this response after that first post. We have all been led astray by people we thought should know better to some extent.
> 
> But after that first posting, then you went and asked about typical puppy nipping, and whether you should yank on her collar.
> 
> At this point, I am hearing someone who really likes to yank on this puppy. And you seem to be having trouble, and are quick to go for the big guns, maybe you would be better off with an adult dog as your first dog, and give this puppy back.


Oh context as I said I missed it! I don't disagree with that assessment! 

I can break it down further "don't create problems you'll have to fix later!" And no don't be yanking and cranking on a puppy!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> Actually, the dog is almost 4 months old and acting like a pretty typical GSD puppy. So far you have socialized extensively, and have called in a high power trainer who has advised you to use a prong collar on the puppy which you were happy to do. I did not give this response after that first post. We have all been led astray by people we thought should know better to some extent.
> 
> But after that first posting, then you went and asked about typical puppy nipping, and whether you should yank on her collar.
> 
> ...


Noted. We got her at 10 weeks, almost 11. I did not start with yanking, have not tried it at all until yesterday. But then some people say that's what to do that or twisting the nape of their neck, and as has already been established in this thread, so many people who are certain of their own methods are at complete odds with others. I was asking if not using the prong meant I should yank on a regular collar as a correction, or what method I should use for correction without the prong. Not that I am chomping at the bit to yank on her, I genuinely want to know how others "correct" when inappropriate behavior is observed. 

So, you suggest no yanking at all for a puppy exhibiting expected puppy behavior. The fact that I've never trained one before means that I need to learn - which is why I am seeking advice from multiple sources!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

And as far as going for the big guns, the thought behind consulting a trainer was so that I don't blunder through her training blind and end up with a dog with a lot of problems down the road when it becomes harder to "fix" the issues. The idea was to address the experts now, avoid problems later. At this point it was just a one-time consultation with the trainer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

J-Boo said:


> Can you explain to me what that entails? Having a prong on him but not used as correction?


Send me a PM to remind me. Definitely PM me. I'll give you the name of a super good trainer that can teach it to you in person.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey J-Boo, just think in terms of teaching what you want, not fixing issues later. Like with the biting. I'm in the no teeth on me camp. No degree's of whats ok. It doesnt mean clobber them for nipping you because they ignore the toy you're trying to bribe them with once they are biting you. Its more of directing them to biting the toy right away. Once there's value to that for them, its easier to show them hands are no fun, the toy is fun. Then when you say 'NO' and interrupt the play, it means something. Its a clear consequence to their action.

Another thing that I think sometimes causes some confusion is the whole idea of affection and cuddling, those types of things. Every dog I've had that's got some drive, finds that kind of thing restrictive when they're young. Its a less is more thing. That quick switch from sweet to demon people mention. I get the idea its when people are looking for too much, too soon. I find that it's better when I just pet or rub for a brief, calm amount of time, then move on. 

The main thing is you have to want to train them, and you enjoy it. If you have that, you'll end up where you want with her.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey J-Boo, just think in terms of teaching what you want, not fixing issues later. Like with the biting. I'm in the no teeth on me camp. No degree's of whats ok. It doesnt mean clobber them for nipping you because they ignore the toy you're trying to bribe them with once they are biting you. Its more of directing them to biting the toy right away. Once there's value to that for them, its easier to show them hands are no fun, the toy is fun. Then when you say 'NO' and interrupt the play, it means something. Its a clear consequence to their action.
> 
> Another thing that I think sometimes causes some confusion is the whole idea of affection and cuddling, those types of things. Every dog I've had that's got some drive, finds that kind of thing restrictive when they're young. Its a less is more thing. That quick switch from sweet to demon people mention. I get the idea its when people are looking for too much, too soon. I find that it's better when I just pet or rub for a brief, calm amount of time, then move on.
> 
> The main thing is you have to want to train them, and you enjoy it. If you have that, you'll end up where you want with her.


Thanks a lot, Steve. You talk a lot of sense, lol. The thing about too much cuddling, especially. I'm glad to hear it's not just that my dog isn't a cuddler. I definitely think she finds it restrictive, if she's not in the mood.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

One more question, folks. If the aggressive behavior toward other dogs is a pretty typical stage for GSD puppies of this age, what are my options as far as continuing to take her to classes? Our puppy class is wrapping up next week, and then we are signed up to start pre-basic class through Syracuse Obedience Training Club. Someone mentioned not trying to force her to interact nicely with other dogs, just keep away from them and keep her distracted while working on our training relationship. So if she freaks on the dogs at class, does that mean we should just not go to group classes at this age?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

J-Boo said:


> One more question, folks. If the aggressive behavior toward other dogs is a pretty typical stage for GSD puppies of this age, what are my options as far as continuing to take her to classes? Our puppy class is wrapping up next week, and then we are signed up to start pre-basic class through Syracuse Obedience Training Club. Someone mentioned not trying to force her to interact nicely with other dogs, just keep away from them and keep her distracted while working on our training relationship. So if she freaks on the dogs at class, does that mean we should just not go to group classes at this age?


look up the LAT methods....she needs to learn that other dogs are not for playing with, not for interacting with but to be neutral with. Learn how to redirect her and show her that you are more important than other dogs or people. If she really is acting 'aggressive' then a prong collar will ramp up the reactive behavior and I definitely would not use a prong until you get her to learn to be neutral to people and dogs. The book Control Unleashed has great exercises for helping the handler learn how to manage reactive behaviors.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> look up the LAT methods....she needs to learn that other dogs are not for playing with, not for interacting with but to be neutral with. Learn how to redirect her and show her that you are more important than other dogs or people. If she really is acting 'aggressive' then a prong collar will ramp up the reactive behavior and I definitely would not use a prong until you get her to learn to be neutral to people and dogs. The book Control Unleashed has great exercises for helping the handler learn how to manage reactive behaviors.


Great, thank you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

At this point classes are to teach you and your puppy handling/obedience skills _in the presence of other dogs._ It is not to interact with them. Usually, most of the dogs are pretty keyed up on the first night of classes and by the second night, they tend to settle down. Never allow your dog to meet and greet another dog in class. That is not what you are there for. That is not what most of the people are there for. 

By keeping a bit of space between you and each other dog/handler team, you are letting your puppy know that you have things covered, and you are protecting him. Try to keep a loose lead. Try not to allow him to get into a stupid-zone -- before he zeroes in on the other dogs, get his attention on you, and praise. Work on, teach him the LOOK or WATCH ME command, and get to know your puppy. Before he reacts, act. Do a quick Come Front, have him sit, and play the treat in the hand game. 

He doesn't have to run and play with other dogs, or go up and sniff butts. He will probably have to sit in a veterinary waiting room at some point and not act like an idiot. This is where having him in classes right on through his adolescence really makes a difference. He learns that there are other dogs in the world, and they are not there for him, or out to get him. And YOU learn to tell people, to reel in their dog before there is an issue. Trust me, some yayhoos come into the vets office with a flexi-lead on the dog or no lead at all. And because their 14 year old blind dog has never bothered anyone, they see no reason why she shouldn't trot up to every other dog. You have to be a bitch and say, "Get a hold of your dog." 

And if he says, "she's friendly." 

Then you have to say something like, "but mine's not." or "but mine has distemper." Who cares what the truth of the matter, the point is, people are not always as careful/responsible as they ought to be. Who wants their dog swapping bodily fluids at a veterinary office? People are nuts.


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

selzer said:


> At this point classes are to teach you and your puppy handling/obedience skills _in the presence of other dogs._ It is not to interact with them. Usually, most of the dogs are pretty keyed up on the first night of classes and by the second night, they tend to settle down. Never allow your dog to meet and greet another dog in class. That is not what you are there for. That is not what most of the people are there for.
> 
> By keeping a bit of space between you and each other dog/handler team, you are letting your puppy know that you have things covered, and you are protecting him. Try to keep a loose lead. Try not to allow him to get into a stupid-zone -- before he zeroes in on the other dogs, get his attention on you, and praise. Work on, teach him the LOOK or WATCH ME command, and get to know your puppy. Before he reacts, act. Do a quick Come Front, have him sit, and play the treat in the hand game.
> 
> ...


Okay, makes sense. At least in theory, we'll see how we can do in practice! Maya has always gotten excited about the other dogs in puppy class, but last week was the first time she started displaying aggressive behavior. I'll be sure to work on our discipline and focus before the SOTC class begins.

By the way, it's funny how similar your avatar and Jax08's avatar are. I have to look back to make sure who is who and who said what, because just by looking at the picture I can't keep you two straight  Funny face puppies!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Per Selzer...go and attend the class "without" your dog to see how they handle "trouble makers!"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Per Selzer...go and attend the class "without" your dog to see how they handle "trouble makers!"


 
Did I say that?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Did I say that?


No, but it's a good idea per other folks having had bad management of problem dogs in training classes. 

I see an opening and take it! Should have been more specific!


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