# sable gsd seiger



## djmurdock

i am new to the site and had a queston about seiger show can a sable gsd will seiger show or are they in there own class ?


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## carmspack

if you are talking about the SV Sieger show , don't hold your breath -- they are all black and reds .


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## robinhuerta

Carmen.....give me a chance, here in the USA.
I am trying to break through *again*....but with a sable , black or bi-color.....I might die trying though....


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## martemchik

They're not their own class, they compete against the black and reds, but since that is the favorite coat a sable barely stands a chance. Also doesn't help that sables are supposed to be lean and skinny and look like puppies next to big bad red and blacks.


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## juliejujubean

robinhuerta said:


> Carmen.....give me a chance, here in the USA.
> I am trying to break through *again*....but with a sable , black or bi-color.....I might die trying though....


You can do it


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## Liesje

Wasn't Timo VA2? And David Plank is campaigning his sable Waiko for a VA rating.



martemchik said:


> They're not their own class, they compete against the black and reds, but since that is the favorite coat a sable barely stands a chance. Also doesn't help that sables are supposed to be lean and skinny and look like puppies next to big bad red and blacks.


I really don't think show line sables are as stigmatized as people think. There just aren't that many show line sables, and there aren't many VA dogs let alone the Sieger so it stands to reason that with such a small percentage of dogs, the Sieger isn't going to be sable.

I've personally seen several sable dogs, both working lines and show lines, win their classes at SV shows. I've seen a lot of crap go on at shows but don't recall ever feeling a dog was denied a placement *because* it was sable. Margit van Dorssen's "Arlett" kennel has had several successful sable dogs.


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## robinhuerta

I want to break through with a 1/2 WL & 1/2 SL dog into the VA group.....
If I can win a *Protection Award* also.....it will make all the difference in the world.
I plan on showing and competing with my WL sable female in next years Sieger Show....I want to work hard for a good V placing and an award for bite-work..... I realize my goals are high...but without goals......I'm just another GSD breeder, and my life is missing some "meaning" for me.
_*I know.....I sound crazy.*_


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## RocketDog

I'm rooting for you Robin!! (not that that is worth anything, LOL)


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## Liesje

Not crazy, Robin, just motivated! Hey if you have any progeny you want shown, my next purchase will be a "show" dog (doesn't have to be 100% show, just a show line type that I can have fun showing)...


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## robinhuerta

You tell me "when"...and I'll make sure that it is a *special* one......you and Carlos can make the decision.


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## GermanShepherds6800

I love show line sables, but there are not many out there being bred.


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## BlackGSD

robinhuerta said:


> Carmen.....give me a chance, here in the USA.
> I am trying to break through *again*....but with a sable , black or bi-color.....I might die trying though....


Won't it be awful tough and take several generations? Since you could breed a SL to a black zillion times and NEVER get a black, but they will all be carriers of black. 

And at first, all of the sables will be patterned. (So they may not even look like sables but rather washed out black and tans.)

Am I correct in thinking this is a longer range goal? (Meaning father down the road than your first cross.)

Please don't think I'm trying to be snarky. That is definitely NOT my intention. I think having goals is wonderful!!


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## carmspack

many feel that Timo was denied first spot because he was a sable. When he was running in first place the audience was up out of their seats booing . 

here are comments on Fred Lanting viewing the 2008 Sieger show with a Timo son Other than the noise from the Italian cheering section, the most crowd enthusiasm was again for Gerd Dexel’s sable Timo Berrekasten son, Arex Herbramer-Wald (unfortunately, only a 91ZW). This dog with the most sparkling personality you could imagine (happily barking in the ring as if to say “Let’s run!”, and happily meeting admirers outside the ring) got a bit more recognition this year, moving up by leaps and bounds to wind up in V-21 place (last year it was V-28). I reported last year about his “great front reach, ground-covering powerful gait off-leash while leaving others in the dust, a tremendously handsome masculine head, [and] nice overall anatomy”. If he had had a progeny class, that might have given him an additional boost, but there is still too much anti-grey prejudice in Germany’s _hochtzuchtlinie_ breeding circles, so he has not been used as much as perhaps he should have. Since he is almost 7 years old, this was undoubtedly his last fling at the Sieger Show, even though he acted as spry as a 2- or 3-year-old. His bitework was also excellent, as always.
and
When the GSD breed got started, there were many sables, probably far more than there were B&Ts, and perhaps some with wolf-agouti pattern as well. (In my book, you will even see a blue merle GSD from the 1920s!) What happened to the sable in the show lines, and why have the "working lines" kept so many of them? The answer to the second part is simpler, and it involves the breeder Alfred Hahn of BuseckerSchloß fame. When I visited with him, he told me how he started his kennel in 1925, and how he had a special leaning toward the "gray" dog. He showed me many photos of his past and current successes, and in most cases they were sables. Hahn had the single greatest influence on both the preservation of the sable, and on the furtherance of the "total" show-working dog of any in his long tenure. He blended the best working dog lines with the best "show" dogs. Behind the greatest "golden middle" dogs that ever lived (the Lierberg B, D, and other litters) was the BuseckerSchloß name. I knew Bodo, the hardest and most imposing GSD I’ve ever come across, and I had a Gin v. Lierberg daughter that could also eat iron and spit out ten-penny nails. They were B&Ts, but they had tough and beautiful sables in their backgrounds.




















Timo and daughter Darlehn, both heterozygous sables, both with black masks.Timo was a very popular sable, yet color prejudice contributed to his not being named German Sieger.
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the account of the 2001 SV Sieger show that jipped Timo , who was also supposed to have better bite work , of he Sieger title. Judge for yourself .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs​


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## carmspack

sable dogs are not supposed to look skinnier , nor are they skinnier -- tell that to some of the sable ddr dogs .


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## carmspack

some of those patterned sables have richer pigment than many black and tans, black and reds --


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## robinhuerta

Tracy....fair question, so let me answer.
Everything that we do...we do with long term goals in mind.....we breed for ourselves first.
It took us a total of 8 years...from buying mother, showing & titling her...then breeding her...to create our beloved Cuervo. We then had to invest the time, energy, blood & tears into him...to be awarded a *non political, non financial, VA placement.*
It is my *personal* goal to try to accomplish the same thing again....but with a *horse of a different color, so to speak*.
My personal goal is to stand at the podium with my very own, home bred, "black, bi-color or sable" dog.....female or male.
Like I said....I might die trying.....but it is *my *goal non the less.
_*A GSD of both mind & body....and unprejudiced recognition, for being both.*_


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## robinhuerta

Carmen....I was in Germany when Timo took his VA placement......I was extremely happy to see him awarded.
I owned 2 sable sisters from the same *father* line as Timo...they were very nice.
Hillary Plog's first service dog, was a son from one of them.....and we had a daughter from the other become a certified, SAR dog...
Timo was always a favorite of mine.


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## qbchottu

Robin...that's a very ambitious goal! If anyone can do it, I know you can 
I hope I'm lucky enough to work one of your SL/WL babies! I can't wait for a demon on the sleeve with a SL swagger  I'll be waiting with anticipation!


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## PaddyD

robinhuerta said:


> I want to break through with a 1/2 WL & 1/2 SL dog into the VA group.....
> If I can win a *Protection Award* also.....it will make all the difference in the world.
> I plan on showing and competing with my WL sable female in next years Sieger Show....I want to work hard for a good V placing and an award for bite-work..... I realize my goals are high...but without goals......I'm just another GSD breeder, and my life is missing some "meaning" for me.
> _*I know.....I sound crazy.*_


Best of luck breaking through the sable barrier.


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## robinhuerta

If you can *hold onto your anticipation* until Fall......I will have Izzy's first (crossed) litter.
I haven't picked the "right" male yet...but Carlos is speaking with a close friend in Germany regarding prospects.
Izzy has it all (in my eyes)...she is beautiful, sound in body & mind....I also plan on showing her next year in the Sieger Show, along with a son or daughter.
Since I am also a realist...I would never bring a dog *unworthy* to an event....if I'm going...I'm going to fight for a good placement.
*You know *......I will provide you with the best that I have.


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## Mrs.K

I'll send you Nala. She could place very high as well, for a working dog. With her drive and the looks, I think YOU are the one that could take her and PLACE in the highest ranks


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## qbchottu

Wow Robin! That's so very tempting! I need to learn more about SL/WL crosses. Most of what I've heard has been negative coming from hard-line SL or WL people that recoil in horror when you want to cross the two. I _too_ need to educate myself more to get rid of my prejudices against crossing the two. I trust your judgment 100% though. If you think a Sl/WL cross has what I'm looking for, I'm on board 

I'm like you...I want it all lol! I want to earn high ratings in the ring with a dog that can do _serious_ work. We don't want any golden retriever mouths over here!


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## BlackGSD

Robin, 

Thanks for the reply. I believe that is what breeders SHOULD do, breed for themselves and for the FUTURE. Rather than only being concerned with the present.

Good luck. I too will be watching. I think it would be great to see some variation in color.


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## robinhuerta

@ MrsK....How about....YOU come fight too!
I bet you would enjoy.....shoving a few SL's out of their placements! LOL......I sure do, every-time I bring a WL into the ring.
_I must be schizophrenic.....goodness, listen to me?!....._*I ALSO own SL's! LOL*


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## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> @ MrsK....How about....YOU come fight too!
> I bet you would enjoy.....shoving a few SL's out of their placements! LOL......I sure do, every-time I bring a WL into the ring.
> _I must be schizophrenic.....goodness, listen to me?!....._*I ALSO own SL's! LOL*


She turns two soon and we just don't have the means to do SAR and SchH. I'd have to make a choice. Either SchH and Conformation or SAR and we've come too far in SAR to give it up now. Sucks big time. 

That being said, I'd enjoy it VERY much.


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## robinhuerta

Aish
Please remember...at one time...there was no cross, they were the same dogs.
Since the gene pool is so congested...we (breeders) need to do something..
*Another topic all together*
I can't promise that anything *wonderful* will become of the first "crossed" litter we have.....it is only a goal at this time.
However;.....IF there is an exceptional puppy, that exhibits BOTH body & soul.....it will be the one we will concentrate on.
All good things have a starting place...and everything in life starts at a beginning....this will be our beginning of our additional road.
We have what we want from our SLs......some VERY nice dogs,...we will use them and progeny from the WLs (we keep) to continue our program.
I want it all......beautiful bodies, with sound minds....of all colors.
Perhaps just a dream to many...and taboo to the others.....*but for me...it's a personal goal.*


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## BlackthornGSD

I did a working/show cross--not for the conformation ring, but to make good dogs. I was also curious how much influence would come from each parent and I wanted to know a bit more about what my female would produce. So, I considered it an "educational" breeding. My female was the daughter of a 2x Universal Sieger and the stud dog I chose was VA in the U.S. with a very nice temperament and good drives.

I found that there was a lot of prejudice against the cross--and in looking around, I think it's because most of the crosses aren't done by people who are breeding good dogs to begin with--they're not really informed about the dogs and they're all too often doing the breeding because that just happened to be the 2 dogs they owned.

I understand it too from the perspective of looking for breeding partners--as a working dog breeder, I don't want to go to a stud who is going to "dilute" working ability. And I suspect that the conformation people don't want to dilute the consistently good conformation that they are going for.

What I saw in my puppies that actually concerned me the most is that they were very BIG and they grew _so fast_--one pup was 78 pounds at 6 months, the other males were 72 and 68 pounds at 6 months. I don't know whether this was simply the particular cross or because of the "hybridization."

I didn't get the toplines I would have liked to see (they tend to have both the nick behind the withers and a bit of a roach). The rear angulation was closer to dad's than to mom's (mom is a bit underangulated, so this isn't bad); shoulders are nice, which was an improvement on mom (short in the upper arm). They all have beautiful heads and ears and very nice prey drive--very workable but not extreme. Very sound nerves overall--environmentally and with new experiences/people and other dogs.

But most of all, they are *NICE* pups--very loving and friendly and human oriented. They are very happy to go out and work and but also very willing to spend time snuggling. They are excellent with children, even babies. One of them is training in SAR, the others are in pet or "casual" working homes. So, I consider it a successful litter--they are happy and healthy and they make their people very happy.

I think a cross with a DDR dog will be very interesting--and I know that Grafental kennel in Germany has been doing some of this for a few years.


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## qbchottu

Well put Robin. You're right. The breed needs to broaden the pool we select from and new genes injected into the pool would produce some interesting results. I am excited to see what happens.


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## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> Aish
> Please remember...at one time...there was no cross, they were the same dogs.
> Since the gene pool is so congested...we (breeders) need to do something..
> *Another topic all together*
> I can't promise that anything *wonderful* will become of the first "crossed" litter we have.....it is only a goal at this time.
> However;.....IF there is an exceptional puppy, that exhibits BOTH body & soul.....it will be the one we will concentrate on.
> All good things have a starting place...and everything in life starts at a beginning....this will be our beginning of our additional road.
> We have what we want from our SLs......some VERY nice dogs,...we will use them and progeny from the WLs (we keep) to continue our program.
> I want it all......beautiful bodies, with sound minds....of all colors.
> Perhaps just a dream to many...and taboo to the others.....*but for me...it's a personal goal.*


:wub: :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## carmspack

been doing just that -- Carmspack Sumo - German Shepherd Dog
and everyone criticizes, calls it chicken soup or something -- everything has a well thought out reason - 
and Yeulett's Elza 2nd - German Shepherd Dog -- ofa good , thoroughly tested for work and fight by decoy -- impeccable temperament , and then working line owners won't breed to her because she has a show line -- yes ! -- 

*Elza is a super high drive female with a ton of Jam, she is from a long line of police, SAR, and service dogs. This female has a beautiful head and frame with rich red and black pigment. Shes heavy on a sleeve and jumps like a kangaroo!*

*75 lbs*
*24 inches at shoulder*
*short coat*
*black and red*
*Hips And Elbows cleared for*
*genetic defect*






 
she has hard full grip -- full committment, no dog aggression , no fear , high drive for the ball, pigment , bone, proven background. From the same lines, Rampa x Bugati (see relationship to "WinterBrite) x my female - we got two dogs from the same litter that went police SWAT .​ 
She hasn't been baptised with the special waters of the schutzhund field - so working dog (male) owners reject her -- some who wouldn't know a good working dog if it bit them (or not - more likely) .​ 
Meanwhile Sumo is a gem , although long coat , and sable , super easy to work with , stands up to pressure , rises when under and performs better , and is a thinking dog -- sister JOURNEY with Laurel - impressed ring sport decoys .​ 
Robin - I applaud you !​ 
With the pedigrees you have through this gorgeous black pup you will get thinking dogs , instinct dogs, not heightened suspicion . The only thing you have to watch is to match the right ddr lines to show lines as they both can concentrate on one family (heritage) background . Get some Bernd Lierberg in there through ddr -- keep the soundness . I think you will have some striking dogs .​ 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs​


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## carmspack

cut and pasted wrong picture and don't know how to delete - so enjoy some nice dogs hanging out together


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## Mrs.K

> ofa good , thoroughly tested for work and fight by decoy -- impeccable temperament , and then working line owners won't breed to her because she has a show line -- yes ! --


I'm pretty sure I'll have the same problem with Nala. She's got Show line too. HD/ED A STAMP. Impeccable temperament... 
Working-Dog.eu - Nala vom Kassler Kreuz

But look at that drive:





What more do you want in a dog? 
She's got the looks, she's got what it takes. Full package!
If anyone gives me poop about Showline in her pedigree I'll use my own male.


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## Freestep

I am very pleased to read this thread. Go Robin!! I continue to hold out hope that we will return to the "Golden Middle" with breeders like you.


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## robinhuerta

MrsK, Carmen, Christine and others have done it, and are doing it.....I want to be included in the best company!


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## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> MrsK, Carmen, Christine and others have done it, and are doing it.....I want to be included in the best company!


Not me. My parents. I hope to find my own middle under their guidance and will actually join YOUR company as a breeder one day. But there is much to learn and I really want to certify my dogs first so I have to show something for myself as well.


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## wildo

carmspack said:


> and Yeulett's Elza 2nd - German Shepherd Dog


Carmen- Elza is your breeding? Wow- she is one _stunning_ female! Wow... :wild:

Is this photo correct from PDB?


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## CelticGlory

I was reading the post from PDB as well! Carmen are you the poster on the PDB thread about her? She is really for sale or is the photo stolen? The poster didn't make it sound like she was for sale but was updating a current picture of her.


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