# potential serious side?? - vid



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

these vids show some barrier frustration the first exposure to the dog with this type of work - the decoy is not a dog guy btw. the dog's age is actually a bit younger once i checked his actual date so more like 13mo.

i think i held the leash too tight and didn't allow him enough freedom but the decoy is inexperienced so safety first.

sometimes the dog look serious to me other times he looks like he is playing, i don't see fear?

first exposure;





 

second;


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

why on earth would u be working with someone who isnt a dog guy? ur dog sounds and looks good tho for a young dog. IMHO But you are pulling it back it looks like. I don't know just seems like you should be working with a real trainer. But real trainers are hard to find so i sompathize with you because most real trainers are crooks. But you should be moving forward with your dog and not pulling it back. Dog seems good tho and seems like he is or will be a serious dog. JMHO someone with much more experience will see tho.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

ya, i am pulling him back, basically pulling him off his feet trying to put in a huge safety margin but it is compromising the training exercises.

i have no choice on decoys, i am raising this decoy myself. he is not a "moving shaking" kind of guy lol but a good guy. he is prolly more like a real adversary than some whip-cracking, disco shuffle, decoy dude or a princess schutshund forearm decoy.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

what is ur dog like around strangers? will he let them pet him?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

kind of a big stupid pup around friendlies that are introduced and seems happy to meet them and gets very excited and will knock them over trying to play.

at night he senses get a bit heightened and is quick to go off the deep end. he is also very quick to trigger on either a stalker (in training) or any kind of threat/challenge. 

i think he is a low threshold dog, very low. also quick to switch from prey and defence, a real helper worked him and said he can switch the dog from prey to defence with subtlest of movements.

my interpretation is he is a late maturer as he only started lifting his leg at 12mo and he will grow into himself from about 2yo.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

does he have a lot of prey drive also? he seems like he would be a good dog then also for protection training. 


The switching in and out quick is nice my bitch does that a lot in training. I think its good it keeps them from being stresssed and she loves training then. She never wants to leave and always wags her tail gets nutty when goes to protection.


She went for the decoys fingers/hands last time tho in training lol He went into a panic mode there because it became a real life situation.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

pets4life said:


> does he have a lot of prey drive also? he seems like he would be a good dog then also for protection training.
> 
> 
> The switching in and out quick is nice my bitch does that a lot in training. I think its good it keeps them from being stresssed and she loves training then. She never wants to leave and always wags her tail gets nutty when goes to protection.
> ...


yes hi in prey but not super quick like a small frame mal, he is as fast as any gsd for the prey item, he is about 43kg at the moment around 18mo with very low fat %

he is bred as a sharp street dog, will video some prey stuff and put up.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

hes czech? he will mature really late mine is going to be 3 in january i am starting see a mature dog now but i still think she will mature more


my dog close to 3 i dont consider her a real mature dog


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

half czech as far as i can gather thru sire, but the actual dogs all seem to be italian working dogs on the grandsires line??? so not sure why the breeder of the grandsire says czech??

the dam side is kind of ddr and wg i think so a bit scatterbred. just a matter of guys in working roles saying that dog is good, this female is good lets put them together - don't think they are big ped nerds, just what works to what works.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

You need to stop messing around with protection work as a newbie and with a helper that doesn't know anything. Find a good club otherwise don't do it.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thanks for the advice, i choose to ignore it tho.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

If you will post the pedigree I can tell you how he is bred. I can tell you Czech dogs are slow to mature. Also what are your plans for him ultimately? The decoy is an important component in training and i would not go this route


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i did not purchase the dog with papers, i am not sure the mother has papers. sounds bad to most here i know but i based my purchase on what i saw the parents do while working, i worked all the breeders dogs myself and other progeny that were old enough.

the grandsire is nukey which many here will prolly know as a great sport dog. a nukey son is the sire but not sure what nukey was bred with - whatever it was the breeders of nukeys son are top and well respected breeders. 

my dog was the first outcross with the nukey son - is nukey czech, i don't know, which makes me don't know if his son is czech etc. he looks it?

the grandsire on the dam side is a well known street dog, well known by private industry at least.

which makes my dog a bit mean junk-yard dog outcrossed with elite international level sport dog.

i would not go this training route either if i had a choice. dogs are adaptable and i am not stupid or cruel. if the dog is going to work the training will neither prevent him from or cause him to work, what a dog is is what a dog is.

he will do street work, i won't start him untill he is 2yo and then he will only get easy gigs out of harms way untill he shows he has the capacity. if he fails he will be my pet, albeit an active pet. personally i have no doubts he will do the work, a prediction yes but sheesh not many people would even go anywhere near him now.

sorry about vagueness of ped but i never went to buy a piece of paper i wanted a dog and the best way i know how to do that is see the parents and progeny work and know the breeder his plan experience past products of breeding and his ethics.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I have two nu key sons. Yes he is Czech. When you say street work what do you mean? Are you a cop? And poor training can ruin a nice dog. I have been certifying dogs for many years and have seen some nice young dogs totally screwed up because the foundation is everything


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

dog first time presented with someone at front door;





 
different day different decoy same door - yes he lost focus for a bit;





 
with a real decoy at night - poor vid quality;





 
dog is confident and sharp as ****!


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

ladylaw203 said:


> I have two nu key sons. Yes he is Czech. When you say street work what do you mean? Are you a cop? And poor training can ruin a nice dog. I have been certifying dogs for many years and have seen some nice young dogs totally screwed up because the foundation is everything


 
wow you have nukey sons, that makes us in-laws, hi ya, gonna bookmark you mam how do you friend people on this forum.

not a cop, a rent-a-cop, not my full income stream tho, need more dogs lol.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

he looks like he will already bite someone for real


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

please don't assume as some have that this dog has been pushed into defence by some harsh agitation methods - so not true, his stimulation is exactly what you have seen, in fact i have taped every session and put them on this board. he has not had many sessions at all in his life and all the stimulation is what you see.

unless you count this stuff;


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

x11 said:


> ya, i am pulling him back, basically pulling him off his feet trying to put in a huge safety margin but it is compromising the training exercises.
> 
> i have no choice on decoys, i am raising this decoy myself. he is not a "moving shaking" kind of guy lol but a good guy. he is prolly more like a real adversary than some whip-cracking, disco shuffle, decoy dude or a princess schutshund forearm decoy.


Hey now, I ONLY do "thriller" when I'm working dogs. Too young for disco


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

What is a "princess Schutshund forearm decoy"?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

hunterisgreat said:


> Hey now, I ONLY do "thriller" when I'm working dogs. Too young for disco


 
tehe, gangnam style, interpretive dance....?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

robk said:


> What is a "princess Schutshund forearm decoy"?


:headbang:


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i need to shut more up is what i need to do


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think it's the end of the world to work with an inexperience helper as long as *someone* is calling the shots. One thing I noticed was that his presentation of the sleeve was really awkward, both for himself and the dog. Didn't really matter in that vid but if your dog was running and launching at him, not held back on a leash, then someone could really get hurt. Maybe just have him to the agitation work and not the bites. I'm kind of a newb myself but if someone was "catching" my dog like that I'd end it right there, no more actual bites on a sleeve until the helper can safely present it. Safety is more important to me than "is my dog a [email protected]$$ that will bite?"


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

yeah someone correct me if im wrong but this dog seems to be the type that will nail someone at this young age and hes doesnt really seem to scared either in his videos lol I would be really careful someone doesnt get hurt or "caught"


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

what do you mean by "caught"??


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I don't think it's the end of the world to work with an inexperience helper as long as *someone* is calling the shots. One thing I noticed was that his presentation of the sleeve was really awkward, both for himself and the dog.* Didn't really matter in that vid but if your dog was running and launching at him, not held back on a leash, then someone could really get hurt.* Maybe just have him to the agitation work and not the bites. I'm kind of a newb myself but if someone was "catching" my dog like that I'd end it right there, no more actual bites on a sleeve until the helper can safely present it. Safety is more important to me than "is my dog a [email protected]$$ that will bite?"


 
agreed, my dog will never do the flashy long bite stuff as i don't have the experience or the resources.

not a prob tho as the dog will always be leashed during bite-work, unless its a training scenario.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Two things from a newbie. Based strictly off of the video.... 
when the helper gives the bite have him angle the sleeve a bit down toward the dog. 

Also, when the dog bites, in the video it appears that the helper just kept staring at the dog, and stared at him all of the way out of the gate. The most simple, but maybe important??, concept I have learned is how important it is for the helper to act as if the dog affected him. Act scared, turn away, glance down, grunt.... whatever. 
But do not continually be challenging the dog after the dog has shown power through the bark or the bite.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

thats what i'm talking about, some solid, simple practical advice that can make a difference. thank you Sir/Mam?? i appreciatte it.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

x11 said:


> thats what i'm talking about, some solid, simple practical advice that can make a difference. thank you Sir/Mam?? i appreciatte it.


Just passing along things I have learned from those far wiser and more knowledgeable than myself.
Have you and your helper read Der Schutzhund? I found that it is the best place to start understanding protection work.
---Mary


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i will now thanks for the link. i have ordered the complete hilliard series tho


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

x11 said:


> agreed, my dog will never do the flashy long bite stuff as i don't have the experience or the resources.
> 
> not a prob tho as the dog will always be leashed during bite-work, unless its a training scenario.


It doesn't take a field-long long bite to cause a serious injury. I work with some inexperienced helpers but if they are going to wear a sleeve with a bite bar, at the very least they need to wear the sleeve on the correct arm and present the bite bar at the right angle, even up close. Otherwise have the decoy wear a suit or hidden arm or something like that. The bite bar on a sleeve is there for a reason but it defeats the purpose and can be dangerous if the decoy is jamming the dog. Leashed or not makes no difference, and I'm not just talking "sport" either, your dog isn't going to be much help to you as a PPD or whatever you are training him for if his neck is jammed or teeth broken. There are lots of helper seminars for newbie helpers/decoys where your decoy can learn how to safely work the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I'm not just talking "sport" either, your dog isn't going to be much help to you as a PPD or whatever you are training him for if his neck is jammed or teeth broken.


We adopted a dog we only found out later had done bitework in a very irresponsible manner. He was a loose cannon, and had a mouthful of broken teeth I am sure were from the inexperienced people doing the "bitework"


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

An accident waiting to happen


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> An accident waiting to happen


We all kind of see that...but would you be able to explain why?

Is it like loading a gun and leaving the safety off and setting it down in a roomful of toddlers?

Is bad bitework worse than none at all?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> An accident waiting to happen


most informative post, thanx for the training tips.


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