# Bite inhibition progress. How long did it take you? Negative reinforcement only.



## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Had my puppy for a week now. He is amazing. All but that puppy play biting that everyone has to go through. I've been doing tons of research on the matter and seeing what everyone has to say. The most common methods of teaching bite inhibition (as opposed to bite PROhibition) I found were:


The motherly pin down method, which I don't want to do. That is a debate on its own.
The scream "yipe!/ouch!" in a high pitched tone and walk away when they bite too hard and gradually reduce the amount of pressure before you give the yipe
The same as the previous one (yipe method) without the scream. Just quietly withdraw and leave without making a fuss. (I always keep him in a playpen when I am teaching him how to play gently). To accelerate this learning process, I play fight with him and wrestle so he wants to gnaw on my hands.

Along with method 3, which I use, whenever his teeth make contact with feet, clothing, hair, face, etc (anything but my hands) I also just up and leave. The goal is to teach him that gentle play fighting with hands is OK but nothing else.



My question and topic for discussion is not which of these methods works, but if you used method #3, how long until your pup started to get it? How much did you actively do this plat exercise with him daily?

Even if you didn't use method 3, how long did it take your pup to learn bite inhibition? What is a realistic expectation. Every pup is different so I'd love to hear lots of input from everyone on when they started to notice change. Also, I don't have other dogs to teach him good manners so it is just me and my fiancee.




While I'm at it, semi off topic question about teething. Isn't teething when their puppy teeth are coming in (which happens in the first few weeks of life) and when their teeth fall out and adult teeth come in? How come I keep reading people saying that a major cause of biting/chewing when they are puppies (8+ weeks) is because their teething. Aren't their puppy teeth all the way in? Are the gums still sore?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> The goal is to teach him that gentle play fighting with hands is OK but nothing else.


My goal is to have a happy pup I can play with and who wants to play with me. And with my Bretta that meant I didn't ever play with my flesh and her teeth or I'd come away injured or she'd go away getting screamed at from my pain.

One thing I know for sure at this point with PUPPIES is the best way to train alot of things is by ME learning how to manage a situation to prevent something from happening at all. Rather than me having to continuously 'work' on something that isn't natural for my puppy. 

Easier for me to punish my puppy every time they get in the trash? Or put the trash can where they can't get it?

Easier to punish my puppy every time they destroy my shoes? Or keep my shoes out of reach and puppy always in view?

Easier to housebreak by punishing every time I find an 'accident'? Or keep puppy in the room with me and pay attention AND/OR use the crate?

Easier to let my puppy get over excited when joyously playing with my and I have to startle/scare/punish when I get bit? Or ONLY use toys when playing so I TEACH MY PUPPY TO PLAY in a manner that guarantees no injury and a happy pup?

Life for my puppy isn't a place where I purposely set them up to FAIL, know they will FAIL and then I have to startle/punish to teach. Instead my puppy's life is a place where they are happy and joyous constantly doing things right right right cause that's how I MANAGE their environment to teach them to get thru the world. 


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/134407-teaching-bite-inhibition.html


Good luck! Your method will work, eventually. But so does mine!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't use any of the above methods as I don't think any of them work anyway. I prefer to just keep redirecting to a toy and playing with him so coming to you continues to be a positive experience. They get over it by six months for the most part no matter what you do.

Let me see if I get this right: you play rough with your pup and then punish him for being rough by walking away?! Could you be more unfair and confusing to your pup?

Puppies teeth twice. The first time when they first get their puppy teeth. The second time when they lose the puppy teeth and get their adult teeth from 3-5 months of age.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

> Ian Dunbar tells a story of a bite incident he had to assess. A Golden Retriever therapy dog was leaving a nursing home and his tail was accidentally shut in a car door. The owner went to help, and the dog delivered four Level Four bites before she could react.
> 
> FYI, a standard scale has been developed to judge the severity of dog bites, based on damage inflicted. The scale is:
> 
> ...


Apparently there were 100+ more similar cases all of which bite inhibition was not taught. He learns to mouth gently and he gets rewarded with more play. I don't see how that is cruel at all? Plus I only pull away when me puts too much pressure and gradually less and less pressure. The goal is to teach him that human skin is super sensitive.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It's completely unfair as you are goading him to bite in the first place and then punishing him for it. Redirecting to a toy is a much better and a way more positive way to deal with this.

Puppies will quit biting on their own so long as you keep giving them something else positive to do. What you are talking about is just plain dog bites and that has nothing to do with puppy biting.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> My goal is to have a happy pup I can play with and who wants to play with me. And with my Bretta that meant I didn't ever play with my flesh and her teeth or I'd come away injured or she'd go away getting screamed at from my pain.
> 
> One thing I know for sure at this point with PUPPIES is the best way to train alot of things is by ME learning how to manage a situation to prevent something from happening at all. Rather than me having to continuously 'work' on something that isn't natural for my puppy.
> 
> ...



The playing fight with hands is supposed to transition to playing extremely gently (gum my hand to death if you want). Pups in a litter do the same thing. They play with either with their teeth and wrestle. But as soon as one bites too hard, the other backs off. What I am doing is no different. Unfortunately there is no litter once I bring my pup home so I have to continue what the litter was already teaching him.

Negative reinforcement is punishment but its not cruel/harsh punishment. It is just taking something they like/want out of the picture temporarily. It isn't startling or scaring him at all. There are much worse things I could be doing to punish. IE, smacking him, grabbing his tongue until he yelps, etc etc. If he wants to keep playing and keep having me around, he needs to mouth gentler. Otherwise we take a break for 30 seconds to a minute to let him reflect on what just happened.

Things that are reinforced occur more often. Things that aren't happen less. Gentle biting = more play = reinforcement. Walking away = not reinforcing him. Don't get me wrong, I do redirect redirect redirect. But when I am actively wrestling with him gently, I do the bite inhibition thing. When I don't have time to play with him, I just put toys in his mouth until he realizes I don't want to play/don't like being bitten.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Have you heard the saying: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink?


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Elaine said:


> It's completely unfair as you are goading him to bite in the first place and then punishing him for it. Redirecting to a toy is a much better and a way more positive way to deal with this.
> 
> Puppies will quit biting on their own so long as you keep giving them something else positive to do. What you are talking about is just plain dog bites and that has nothing to do with puppy biting.


I do redirect when I can't actively teach him bite inhibition. Also, I'm not setting him up to fail every time. We've been working on this for a few days and he is already gnawing gentler. Meaning more play time. There have been plenty of times when he's been gnawing at acceptable levels and we get to play for 5+ minutes. But then he tests his limits and chomps down a bit harder and then it is game over for a minute. I'm simply teaching him how to play nice. I make sure I leave toys with him in his pen when I leave.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

My Rottweiler must've been taught bite inhibition that way because he constantly wants my hands in his mouth. He doesn't exert any pressure whatsoever, but just wants to hold my hand in his mouth like some kind of security blanket.

Let me tell you, it's highly annoying.

I much prefer the method I used with my GSD: the toy method described above. We tried the high pitched yip, tried walking way... nothing worked except giving her something else to play with. Now she would NEVER even consider mouthing or biting.

I agree with the others: revving the pup up is just setting him up to fail. You're telling him, "play, play, play, play! bite me bite me bite me!" NOPE JUST KIDDING, and then walking away, leaving pup confused. "But... my owner TOLD me to do it, and suddenly now it's not okay?"

The "walking away" method is fine if that's what you want to use, but please don't rev your puppy up first by encouraging him to mouth/bite your hands.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Sirius Dog Training

Sorry I keep referring back to Dunbar, but he is a good source to cite IMO since he is very well respected in the realm of dog training/positive reinforcement.



> Puppy biting seldom causes appreciable harm, but many bites are quite painful and elicit an appropriate reaction—a yelp and a pause in an otherwise extremely enjoyable play session. Thus, your puppy learns that his sharp teeth and weak jaws can hurt. Since your puppy enjoys play-fighting, he will begin to inhibit the force of his biting to keep the game going.


The thing is the play fighting doesn't stop immediately. It isn't like I am revving him up and the second he latches on, it is game over. He usually starts very gently and I keep the game at that excitement level, But then he sometimes he pushes it a little too far to the point where it hurts. The bite inhibition phase is to get him to play gently when he does, cause down the line there is bound to be someone or something he decides to rough house with him and he might not know the strength of his jaw. Or God forbid someone steps on his tail. Once bite inhibition is taught, then you can slowly teach him to not mouth at all via an "off" cue and praise when he does.


Elaine, puppy biting and dog biting (I believe at least) go hand in hand. At least the dog knowing the force of their jaw. It is safer to teach bite inhibition as a younger pup since their jaws are weaker. I've read many sources saying that bite inhibition should be kept up with throughout adulthood as their jaws get stronger too. Play biting translates to panic biting. Softer play bites means by second nature, if they panic and snap at your foot cause you stepped on their tail, they are likely to not bite as hard or HOPEFULLY just wrap their jaws around your leg without pressure.



At any rate, the last thing I want to happen in this forum is to stir up bad blood. Just want to make sure both sides of the debate aren't getting heated!  I always come into these things with an open mind and would love to keep discussing this and hearing other opinions. Also, how long did your method take before your pup starting improving? Even if you didn't use the method I described.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I didn't have to bait Jax at all... he would have chewed my warm, tender, gum massaging flesh right off my arm if I let him get carried away. 
I think inhibition and redirection are addressing two different issues. Redirecting addresses their need to chew as teething puppies and they need to be shown what's OK to chew and what's not. 
Bite inhibition is to practice the level of bite it takes to get their point across, as illustrated in the therapy dog case above. If a dog is taught that it's OK to bite at any strength they desire, as long as it's on a kong... what do they do when they NEED to bite but no kong is available... just a cute little child backing them into a corner? First, the dog shouldn't bite, but if something is cornered and frightened enough it will bite. I like my dogs to be aware that even a little tiny nip as a last resort will send anyone screaming so there is no need to give it their all.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I didn't have to bait Jax at all... he would have chewed my warm, tender, gum massaging flesh right off my arm if I let him get carried away.
> I think inhibition and redirection are addressing two different issues. Redirecting addresses their need to chew as teething puppies and they need to be shown what's OK to chew and what's not.
> Bite inhibition is to practice the level of bite it takes to get their point across, as illustrated in the therapy dog case above. If a dog is taught that it's OK to bite at any strength they desire, as long as it's on a kong... what do they do when they NEED to bite but no kong is available... just a cute little child backing them into a corner? First, the dog shouldn't bite, but if something is cornered and frightened enough it will bite. I like my dogs to be aware that even a little tiny nip as a last resort will send anyone screaming so there is no need to give it their all.


I think you are absolutely right. Bite inhibition and redirection fix two different issues. Hence why I make sure to do both.



Another link: Teaching Bite Inhibition | Dog Star Daily


> If one puppy bites another too hard, the bitee yelps and playing is postponed while he licks his wounds. The biter soon learns that hard bites interrupt an otherwise enjoyable play session. He learns to bite more softly once play resumes.





> Play-fighting teaches your puppy to mouth only hands, which are extremely sensitive to pressure, but never clothing. Shoelaces, ties, trousers, and hair have no nerves and cannot feel. Therefore you cannot provide the necessary feedback when your pup begins to mouth too hard and too close to your skin. The play-fighting game also teaches your dog that he must adhere to rules regarding his jaws, regardless of how worked up he may be. Basically, play-fighting gives you the opportunity to practice controlling your puppy when he is excited. It is important to establish such control in a structured setting before real-life situations occur.




To be honest, I am unsure about having to egg him on and rev him up to play, but I am a firm believer that I should be the one initiating the play time/play fighting time. He is usually up for playing anyway so I gently roll him over and he begins to gnaw. He is quite good at doing it gently right now!


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Jax's Mom, what did you do to teach bite inhibition? Just curious.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I just screamed "Ow!" in a loud exaggerated way, pulled my hand away and turned my back to him if I could. It taught him really quickly that biting makes people stop playing and go away. Even though until he was about 6 months old he had the attention span of a peanut, and 5 seconds later he would do it again, you could tell he was clueing in.


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## bboylayz (Sep 7, 2010)

Was extremely gentle mouthing allowed at first? Or was it any teeth skin contact = ouch?


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

It would be up to you to decide how much is OK. For us, because we have kids around... it was just easier and less confusing to teach no teeth than to explain to parents that my dog who's twice the size of their 7 year old is "just playing" and he's "really gentle, trust me"


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## summerronk (Apr 13, 2011)

*When did it get better?*

My 10-week puppy also does a lot of mouthing.... She never bites down that hard, and does not puncture skin, but it can hurt at times. I keep redirecting and giving her a bully stick, which she loves. Or I start giving her commands to practice to get her mind off the mouthing.

But for those of you who had puppies who went through this as well, did it eventually get better? For example, I'd like to hear people who had a puppy that did a lot of mouthing, but now is an adult and doesn't do any mouthing.

Thanks!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

summerronk said:


> My 10-week puppy also does a lot of mouthing.... She never bites down that hard, and does not puncture skin


LOL that has to get worse before it gets better. At 6-7 months they should have their adult teeth in but until then, there will be a lot of skin puncturing and blood. I've never met a puppy that was the cuddly little gentle thing that you see on bath tissue commercials... maybe in the 3 seconds before they're about to fall asleep, but if they're awake and you try to hug them, you get a set of choppers to the face for sure 
Jax is almost 15 months and just now starting to calm down to the point where I can pet him without _always_ having him mouth it.


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## summerronk (Apr 13, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> LOL that has to get worse before it gets better. At 6-7 months they should have their adult teeth in but until then, there will be a lot of skin puncturing and blood. I've never met a puppy that was the cuddly little gentle thing that you see on bath tissue commercials... maybe in the 3 seconds before they're about to fall asleep, but if they're awake and you try to hug them, you get a set of choppers to the face for sure
> Jax is almost 15 months and just now starting to calm down to the point where I can pet him without _always_ having him mouth it.


ha ha, thanks -- no, that makes me feel better! I have read so much on it, and I know that it is normal -- nevertheless, it still makes you worried!!! The good thing is that she NEVER mouths strangers or anyone new (but she will take a treat from their hand real gentle), and only mouths those in her pack. 

I just need to work on getting her to realize what is too hard. I like this article that was on the sticky in this forum:
ClickerSolutions Training Articles --


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Glock is really good about this. He is learning that if he takes food from my hands I better not feel his teeth. I am doing the same things with him that I did with Amadeus. Literally with him I could hold a teeny tiny piece of meat in between my fingers so they were almost touching and he could and would get it out without his teeth touching my fingers. If he ever HAD to it was the most gentle touch. A good friend of ours was so impressed with how gentle he was that he kept giving him meat at our 4th of July BBQ a few years ago.


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## High5 (Apr 21, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> I didn't have to bait Jax at all... he would have chewed my warm, tender, gum massaging flesh right off my arm if I let him get carried away.
> I think inhibition and redirection are addressing two different issues. Redirecting addresses their need to chew as teething puppies and they need to be shown what's OK to chew and what's not.
> Bite inhibition is to practice the level of bite it takes to get their point across, as illustrated in the therapy dog case above. If a dog is taught that it's OK to bite at any strength they desire, as long as it's on a kong... what do they do when they NEED to bite but no kong is available... just a cute little child backing them into a corner? First, the dog shouldn't bite, but if something is cornered and frightened enough it will bite. I like my dogs to be aware that even a little tiny nip as a last resort will send anyone screaming so there is no need to give it their all.



I totally agree. We used the ouch/yelp method with Katie, now at 5 months she has a really soft bite. But yes she does forget when she gets too excited, but with a quick ouch she will stop all together. When it comes to redirection for us its anything that smells like a 2 year old, INCLUDING the 2 year  old is off limits. She is good for the most part but is caught red handed at times with a cabbage patch doll feeling the wrath. In that case we switch it out for a toy that she can chew on. That ones taking a little longer but definitely seeing improvements. At least she doesn't go after our 2 year old any more.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

We attempted the ouch/yelp method at first but he really didn't respond to it at all initially. So we immediately combined it with the withdraw method. On the first bite we say 'ouch' and pause playing. If the biting stops the it is playtime again- and I'm always playing with a toy/encouraging him to bite it, absolutely not attempting to get him to bite me.

If he is out of control jumping on me trying to bite up my arm, then I'm going to stand up and turn around. If that doesn't slow it down then I'm going to walk away and he is probably tethered to the couch so he cannot follow me/bite anymore.

I think part of it is learning and part of it is aging. When he got a little older and just got too excited or accidentally nipped the ouch method worked great.

Play games where he can't bite you like chasing a ball or chase-it, hiding things around the house, exploring a safe wooded area.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I think it's important to never set up to fail, and only utilize the appropriate amount of action to stop the reaction that your pup is exhibiting. 

I don't think a young pup has the ability to 'measure' the amount of force it is utilizing and shouldn't be held accountable if you are allowing any mouthing at all. As the pup ages and matures then you can begin different rough house games and the pup is able to measure the amount of force it displays. 

My GSD is now pushing 20 months. I do not play rough house games, he is a large dog. I will play tug, chase, hide and seek and other games that gets him really turned on. But I will not use any part of my body to knock him around - he will retailiate. And although he isn't using all this strength, he can knock me down, he can leave bruises and he can draw blood. Hubby isn't as smart as me, hubby plays hard and my GSD plays just as hard back.


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## summerronk (Apr 13, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I think it's important to never set up to fail, and only utilize the appropriate amount of action to stop the reaction that your pup is exhibiting.
> 
> I don't think a young pup has the ability to 'measure' the amount of force it is utilizing and shouldn't be held accountable if you are allowing any mouthing at all. As the pup ages and matures then you can begin different rough house games and the pup is able to measure the amount of force it displays.
> 
> My GSD is now pushing 20 months. I do not play rough house games, he is a large dog. I will play tug, chase, hide and seek and other games that gets him really turned on. But I will not use any part of my body to knock him around - he will retailiate. And although he isn't using all this strength, he can knock me down, he can leave bruises and he can draw blood. Hubby isn't as smart as me, hubby plays hard and my GSD plays just as hard back.


In response to this comment: "I don't think a young pup has the ability to 'measure' the amount of force it is utilizing and shouldn't be held accountable if you are allowing any mouthing at all."

I do not necessarily disagree. But, I will say that my 10 week puppy will chomp full blast on a bully stick, or a toy. He can crack it open. Yet on my fingers, he is significantly more gentle. It still can hurt, but she does not break skin. Give her a bully stick, on the other hand, and she will bite right through it.

So she clearly knows the difference in bite force. It just comes down to getting her already gentle mouthing to be even gentler.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

summerronk said:


> So she clearly knows the difference in bite force. It just comes down to getting her already gentle mouthing to be even gentler.


I do agree with what you are saying. But when your 10 week old puppy is totally turned on....I'm talking about the major zoomies here...(if you haven't seen them yet, you will) and furniture is flying and rugs are sliding and your pup is now pushing 50 -60 lbs.....you might be given reason to think back on this thread and witness a "Ah-ha moment!"


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

When your pup bites you too hard just yelp loudly and then don't play with him for a little while. When he was with his litter, if he bit a litter mate too hard, the litter mate would not play with him for a while because of this. That is what I did with my pup and he learned rather quickly to stop biting hard. I have not read all the other posts so if this advice has already been given, then I apologize for being repetitive.


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## summerronk (Apr 13, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> When your pup bites you too hard just yelp loudly and then don't play with him for a little while. When he was with his litter, if he bit a litter mate too hard, the litter mate would not play with him for a while because of this. That is what I did with my pup and he learned rather quickly to stop biting hard. I have not read all the other posts so if this advice has already been given, then I apologize for being repetitive.


Question for you on this.... So when I do this, she will start barking like a madgirl (she just learned how to bark three days ago). If I leave the room, she will go even more crazy. She is barking for my attention. 

I kind of wait till she settles down the barking (so as not to reward it), and then I go back into the room and ignore her. She then follows me around and eventually lays down with her head between her hands all puppy-like. I will eventually then just start resuming activities with her like it all never happened. 

So, did your pup bark like this too when you would ignore her? I've only just started this, so I am hoping if I stick with it for a couple of weeks, she will get the idea that she need to bite more gentle.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

summerronk said:


> Question for you on this.... So when I do this, she will start barking like a madgirl (she just learned how to bark three days ago). If I leave the room, she will go even more crazy. She is barking for my attention.
> 
> I kind of wait till she settles down the barking (so as not to reward it), and then I go back into the room and ignore her. She then follows me around and eventually lays down with her head between her hands all puppy-like. I will eventually then just start resuming activities with her like it all never happened.
> 
> So, did your pup bark like this too when you would ignore her? I've only just started this, so I am hoping if I stick with it for a couple of weeks, she will get the idea that she need to bite more gentle.


Yes and he would even get so mad that he would snap at me. I would completely ignore him until he settled down, and then resume playing. You are doing the right thing, she won't learn overnight, but believe me if you stick to it, she will learn. My dog is 2 years old now and over 100 lbs and when he mouths you, it is very gentle. Instead of yelping you can also firmly say no, and then ignore her for a while.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

We always taught the redirect to a toy method, used ouch when it hurt, and taught "gentle" with food and a clicker and usually most mouthing was under control by 6 months. When the dogs get amped you can see them looking for something else to put in their mouth that is not my hand. And while there may not always be a Kong around...my dogs will find something. A branch, a piece of mulch, a sock...something that they will bring to me. I mean basically the mouthing as pups is a way to initiate play...and they learned that play does not come with mouthing...it comes with toys.

As far as controlling their bite pressure for things other than play initiation...well as Schutzhund dogs we want them to bite full and hard when they feel threatened and we also require them to be confident enough to really assess a threat. The only time I can think of that my dog mouthed me was in protest when I was cleaning a wound and it was a simple hold on my arm. I think as adults a clear headed GSD is perfectly capable of controlling his bite pressure appropriately. 

To be perfectly honest...teaching them to have gentle mouthing has never even been an issue. They either have a toy in their mouth which they hang onto as hard as they want to...or they have no teeth on people. I think if you are raising a pet the easiest route is to just teach no teeth on people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have raised a bunch of puppies and I really do not know when they really get it. They are all a little different. 

I really do not use your methods, though I will walk away and leave if they are playing rough. 

Instead, I use a treat and teach the dog to take it GENTLE. I use the word GENTLE with treat giving. Every time, I use that word, and they can only get it when they are taking it gently. When they do, I say GOOD GENTLE. Once they get that -- doesn't take long, but I practice it for a good week or so, then I tell them GENTLE with my fingers when we are playing. I can also tell them GENTLE when we are at the vet's getting treats. Or GENTLE with the Baby. 

Occasionally, I will say "Ouch that was my finger. Don't hurt the Susie. I want to keep those. You need to be Gentle. Gentle with Susie's fingers." And of course the game or whatever stops right then and there.

But then my dogs understand English pretty good. 

It is what works for me. I know you did not ask that.


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## summerronk (Apr 13, 2011)

selzer said:


> I have raised a bunch of puppies and I really do not know when they really get it. They are all a little different.
> 
> I really do not use your methods, though I will walk away and leave if they are playing rough.
> 
> ...


Super helpful!!! I actually did start doing gentle with her just naturally, and I think it started to work. But I have not really focused just on this. So now I am going to focus on using the word Gentle and seeing if I get some progress there. I appreciate it!


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