# Breeder advice on when to take my puppy home.



## Milo223 (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm pretty new here so bear with me. I got an email from our breeder today encouraging us to take the puppy home early. Here is the letter:

" From our own experience, it has been better to get the puppy @ an earlier stage if you want that puppy to become more like a part of the family. At 5 weeks the puppies are just beginning to play and wrestle with each other, and as they grow they continue this and start fighting for dominance and this can sometimes be grown into their personality. Not that they will become aggressive or unruly but that they have a more dog like (pack like) personality. Although, a lot of importance goes into what kind of environment the puppy is going to. These pups have been handled, loved, and played with from day one. They have been around children and other friendly dogs also. They are used to company and have even had their first bath. These are all things that could normally be startling for a pup. You do want to control the environment around your pup, for instance, keep him/her away from aggressive animals, hyperactive children ( or loud noises, fast sudden movements, or mishandling) could also cause the pup to become more timid, or on the other side more aggressive. It seems to me that your home will be a calm positive environment for your pup, and we do pay attention to the possible owners that visit us. We want to make sure that our pups go to good homes. 
Now a lot of breeders won't sell their pups until 8 weeks because they may breed multiple litters and therefore want to have the pups vaccinated before leaving to their new homes because of the likely hood of disease transfer with multiple animals. Also because it is law in most states, why I am not exactly sure. I guess it would be up to you, if you would rather wait the extra 2 weeks but we did discuss it with our vet and he said their is really no difference one way or the other as long as he/she is going to a good home. I hoped this helped you a bit, and like I said this is coming from my experience, so it is my opinion, but I have had GSD's in my family since I was a very small child."

Should I be worried about this. Is there any relevance to this? Any help would be greatly appreciated as it is our first GSD.

Thanks


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I would NEVER take a puppy at 5 weeks old. The following weeks are the most important in a puppy's life, they learn how to play with other dogs and things like that.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Definitely do not bring puppy home yet.If possible you may want to not get the puppy at all.Unless there is something wrong with the mother or siblings they should stay together till at least 8 weeks.If on the other hand your puppy is going to be left behind and be the only one left then it is better to bring it home now and start in on all the puppy training.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't agree with her theory in the 5 week old sentence AT ALL.
and that alone is a red flag to me. 

Her vet's ideas sound ill informed as well. 

There are people who have gotten puppies at 6,7 weeks of age, however I think most will agree 7 is the earliest and waiting until 8 is probably even better. It will NOT make a difference in how your puppy will bond with you waiting until that 7/8 wk period.

Most breeders Temperment Test their puppies at around 49 days/the 7 week old period and then MATCH that puppy to a home that will suit both. 

I dunno, just based on what she wrote, this is someone I personally, would not buy a puppy from, and that is only my opinion.

I'm sure others will chime in as well.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Weeks 5-8 are when pups truly start developing social and communication skills. Taking a pup home early doesn't inhibit it's ability to be a pet or to bond well to humans. It can bring with it many behavioral problems including not knowing how to communicate with it's own species, not understanding pack order and dynamics, not understanding that there are things like rules and discipline, not having learned any bite inhibition, etc....

Plus, 5 weeks is too early to have a good enough read on any pup's inherent personality to decide what sort of home and lifestyle to which it is best suited.

So no, it is NOT ok to take a pup home at 5 weeks. And I would seriously question any breeder who allowed it, much less encouraged it. I don't doubt this person means well and thinks they are doing something good, but I seriously question their knowledge of canine behavior, psychology and social development if they are telling people they should take pups home at 5 weeks old.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

The being quiet and not making loud noises and those things she wrote sound totally off to me too.Most reputable breeders introduce these things so you don't end up with a scared dog.Do you have a contract with her,any health guarantee? Sounds like a BYB or just someone out to make a few bucks.I would run if you could and look at reputable breeders.


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## Smy3pitas (Jan 26, 2006)

Please DO NOT DO IT! I did the same thing, (did not realize he was that young,as breeder said differrent) but Sarge had NO manners with biting, (he was brutal on us) and was very skiddish around other dogs! I would Never do it again, it only hurt the pup!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Oh my. The social development of the pup can be compromised by taking it from the litter too soon. Mom and siblings teach pups all about how to interact with each other, how to communicate with tier own kind and how to use thier teeth gently. 

If you have no intention of ever taking the pup out of your yard well I guess you could take it home. If you have no intention of allowing the pup to interact with your own children or relatives children, well I guess you could bring it home. 

If you want this pup to be a part of your family and life which I assume you do, I would NOT bring a pup home til 7.5 to 8 weeks. 

I am glad you asked this question and hope you heed the advice. If this breeder insists on this I would be looking elsewhere for your puppy. If you post your general vicinity there are a lot of flok here that can probably help you find a great breeder.

Welcome to the board too!!


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Wow...five weeks?? Anna's breeder actually waited until 11-12 weeks which worked out perfect. I couldn't imagine bringing home a 5 week pup! The things they learn from 5-8 weeks is imparative to their development! If their vet agrees, that's a first and a vet I wouldn't go near.

I also disagree with the lack of noises comment. Not saying you should blow a tuba in the dogs ear, but it's a great time to become acclamated to the sounds of daily life.


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## RacerX (Jan 26, 2009)

Red flags all over!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Another concern I have with a pup from this particular breeder is leaving the pup with the breeder for those additional few weeks will be useless if the rest of the littermates go home at 5 weeks, and if the breeder doesn't properly socialize the pups (and saying things like avoiding noise, etc... would worry me about their socialization practices) during those weeks.

Honestly, I'd be looking for another breeder entirely. One who understands more about early canine social development, will socialize properly and hang onto the pups until the appropriate time. And not sending them home until 8 weeks has *nothing* to do with shots, or worries about infectious diseases, or breeders having multiple dogs, or state laws and everything to do with giving the pups the best start in life.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with Chris. Find a different breeder.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I agree with several of the others.... I would be looking for another breeder.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

The Breeder is correct... 1st legally in many states they can be charged for selling a puppy under 8 weeks. (so it's not JUST their choice) I know in Connecticut you can not transport a puppy across state lines without the mother present under 8 weeks. This was done primarily to stop midwest Puppy farms from being shipped cross country in those damned panel trucks... often 50-100 pups per truck for drop off in pet stores.

2nd the early research done in Bar Harbor Me by John Paul Scott ( Genetics and the social behavior of the dog) showed that 7 weeks was the critical time when the litter bonds and bonds to the mother are changing and that the pups who were placed into homes between 7-10 weeks did better than those before 7 weeks, or those kept beyond 10 weeks when they sere kept in the litter situation. (also see New Knowledge in Dog Behavior by Pfaffenberger)

Pups held beyond 8 weeks need to have individual socialization time apart from their litter. Just like I now have a 12 week old pup with a number of older dogs in my home, and need to provide Ikon separate time away from the other dogs for training, bonding and socialization.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

^^^ The breeder is "correct"? Or do you just mean correct about it being against the law in some states to sell a pup before 8 weeks? But not correct on the other stuff? I certainly do not agree the breeder is correct about sending pups home at 5 weeks. You mention Scott & Fuller's research, and it clearly provided much scientific basis for why sending pups home before 7 weeks, much less as early as 5, is a very bad idea. So the breeder definitely isn't correct on that point.

Yes, some states don't allow the sale of pups before 8 weeks. But that isn't why most breeders (the good ones anyway) keep them until 8 weeks. They do it for the welfare of the pups.


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## lucymom (Jan 2, 2009)

You've gotten good advice here. This breeders sounds seriously misinformed or is not ethical and wanting to unload the pups early to spare herself the work and expense.

As it's been said, this timeframe is CRUCIAL to your pup to learn how to be a dog, learn bite inhibition from corrections from his sibs and mom, to learn doggie manners............... he'll be happier and more stable. 

The advice on not isolating your pup is sound too---you want to supervise and instruct children on how to handle and be around pups, but not isolate them from normal household sounds and family members.

Before your pup arrives, you might want to check out some of the books--I think there is a book section or thread, on bringing puppies home. The early months can be demanding and stressful, yet endlessly rewarding. I have a 16 week-old and even though I've had pups before, I've felt pretty challenged and had to seek some advice and reading to help guide me in the right direction-especially with the mouthing issues that are so part of the GSD pup.

I'm glad you sought advice, that was good thinking on your part!


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Ok.. I read the OP incorrectly... I thought the breeder was saying to wait til 8 weeks. MY BAD!! 

The ONLY reason a breeder would push a puppy off that early is to save themselves $$ of vaccination and worming... to decrease the work involved in feeding and cleaning up after a litter... Can't EVER see a reason that 5 weeks would be recommended for the benefit of the puppy. 7 weeks I might agree to with an experienced Shepherd person... but certainly not before that. 

Move on... there's too many breeders willing to put the time and effort into bringing up a baby puppy properly to hand over your cash to someone who doesn't care.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

It sounds like their first litter...just reading the post... "we asked our vet" "I've been around shepherds my whole life blah blah"

Any reputable breeder or even someone who had bred before would sound more sure...either way, it doesn't sound like someone who knows what they're doing IMHO.


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## Milo223 (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for all the great advice everyone! I was very concerned. Unfortunately I did put a deposit on the puppy already. I'm happy to move on and lose the deposit rather than bring home a poorly raised puppy though. I also agree that even if she is willing to keep my puppy for 8 weeks it won't be much use if her littermates are gone. I live in Billings, MT. I haven't been able to find any breeders here that others have dealt with, so if anyone does have advice please let me know so I can look elsewhere. I may try to get my deposit money back and move on to someone more informed.

Thanks Again!


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## Technostorm (May 24, 2009)

There was a time around 12 years ago when I first took my daughter to a breeder. We've seen an ad on the local paper for a champion bloodline Pomeranian. The picture shows a gorgeous show dog and we were tempted head out right away. 

The first call we made, the breeder started asking all kinds of questions regarding our house, how many kids, experiences etc.. Said she was screening to make sure the puppies goes to the right homes. At that time, we were very pleased.. 

Next day, we headed there. Upon arriving, we see a huge dirt lot, up the hills was a trailer. Inside the trailer were tons of little puppies. Some ate their own poops as well as others. The mom and dad was nowhere in sight. There must of been 12 pups in 1 carton box and there was boxes all over the trailer. Needless to say, these pups were less then 8 weeks old and some looks extreme sad while others were too busy biting the carboards. 

We realized that the breeder were just playing the screening game to get the buyers to come. (saying things to pretend they really cared about the puppies, future owners, etc..). My ex-wife and I decided we didn't want to buy from this breeder. Although at the time, my daughter fell in love with one of the puppies. As we turned around, the breeder stopped us and begged for us to buy one. She discounted the pups lower and lower and kept going lower. Then finally asked that we donate $20 because she couldn't afford to feed the puppies.. Whichis ridiculous!. 

There were syringes all over the table, and the foul smell of poop and urine almost made us threw up. As we left, we contacted the authorities. She was arrested that day and made the local news headlines. 

The moral of the story is, Some breeders will play the game of convincing how much they cared about the dogs. The will even go about pretending to be loving. But in reality, those are the hidden killers sacrificing the lives of innocent puppies so they can scrap a few bucks.. 

You need to listen to some of the advices here on the forum for the sake of innocent poor dogs. You need to excerise your gut instinct and researches. You are on the right path in asking.. Now, its time for you make the call. 

Good luck!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I agree with the others. Red flags ALL OVER. I would run screaming from this "breeder". (And I use the term "breeder" loosely.) 

Maybe if you start a new post telling what you are looking for in a pup, folks will be able to direct you to a reputable breeder.

Good luck in your search.


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## srfd44-2 (May 20, 2004)

Try Theishof shepherds in Middleton, Idaho. Heidi has been breeding for 22 years and one of the things she breeds for is temperment. I got my Kai from her and noise does not bother him at all. My husband is a fireman and Kai will sit and watch the truck leave the firehouse with lights and sirens blazing. Not fazed one bit. Her website is http://www.Theishof Shepherds.com.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You would do better to concentrate on finding a good, knowledgeable, ethical breeder even if you had to have puppy shipped to your home.

Better to lose this deposit than be sorry for a long time..

What line do you want? 

Good luck


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## Milo223 (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm not really picky on American or German line. I want a female companion dog. I have no desire to breed her. I plan to have her spayed as soon as recommended by a vet. I don't want her to go into heat. The dog only needs to be obedient. I won't be showing her at all. I pretty much just want a family friend. I have been wanting a GSD for many years and have finally purchased a home with enough area to have one. My wife and I are very active and I would like a dog who is going to be active as well. I think this is the case with most GSD's as far as I have read. 

The deposit doesn't concern me much I just want to do the right thing by the dog. The owners were taking very good care of the puppies and I was able to meet the Dam when we visited. The puppies were all very clean and so was their crate that they were being paper trained in. The owner is not a full time breeder as this is the first litter from her own dog. They told us that they hadn't planned on breeding her but had many requests from people to breed her after they spent time with the Dam. All indications of proper care were there at the time we viewed them and flags started showing up more after I got home and was questioning the owner. I think I will talk to them again and if necessary I will terminate the agreement. If I lose some money it is my own fault because I was hasty in accepting their offer. I really appreciate everyones feedback though. Theishof does look like a good breeder within driving distance for me. Having a puppy shipped would be an option but I would like to meet the breeder and spend some time at the facility when purchasing the first dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If this breeder is not giving the pups the right beginnings you may end up with a fearful, timid dog all its life. I would be concerned about that alone. This is the part that concerns me...

_At 5 weeks the puppies are just beginning to play and wrestle with each other, and as they grow they continue this and start fighting for dominance and this can sometimes be grown into their personality. Not that they will become aggressive or unruly but that they have a more dog like (pack like) personality. Although, a lot of importance goes into what kind of environment the puppy is going to. These pups have been handled, loved, and played with from day one. They have been around children and other friendly dogs also. They are used to company and have even had their first bath. These are all things that could normally be startling for a pup. You do want to control the environment around your pup, for instance, keep him/her away from aggressive animals, hyperactive children ( or loud noises, fast sudden movements, or mishandling) could also cause the pup to become more timid, or on the other side more aggressive._

If a pup is from good lines and temperament~ a bath, noise and hyper children should not phaze it. And the puppies learn manners from each other and mom on how to act with other dogs. 
I would take the suggestion of contacting Thieishof or spending more time researching what lines you really want to match your lifestyle.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

You might also want to check if there are any laws in your state about when it is legal to sell a puppy. Here in CA, it is illegal to sell a pup under 8 weeks of age.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

http://www.montanagsdrescue.org/

You might contact the rescue over in Hamilton (Bout an hour south of Missoula) about a dog. They seem to have some nice choices, and would at the very least be a good contact.

I don't know this breeder, but looks like German Show lines in Clancy Mt. http://www.omegashepherds.com/ looks like it's just south of Helena. Again, may not be THE person, but the more places you contact and talk to the better your feel will become for just what it is you want, and who can provide it.


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## Milo223 (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks for all the help and advice. I just wanted to share with you the final letter from the breeder. Although I am very sad at the prospect of not bringing my puppy home anymore I am relieved to be able to find a puppy from a better breeder. Here is the letter they sent this morning.

" While I appreciate your concern I am a bit alarmed to your need for a written contract and your statement about hastily agreeing to our verbal agreement on the deposit money. And you wanting to re evaluate the puppy's at 8 weeks which might be irrelevant since most are already spoken for. 
The decision to purchase a GSD is next to deciding to have a child in our eye's. We do not want you to feel trapped, that is the last thing you need in the midst of taking on such a large task in a new puppy. We have stated from our own personal experience what we believe to be true, and do not claim to be experts but experts aren't always right. Rose is our fourth (GSD) and we picked her up at just short of six weeks, now you saw for yourself how aggressive she could be when you first showed up and how passive she became once she realized that you were no longer a threat. And that I had complete control of her the entire time. Most dogs with pups wouldn't let you within 50' of there litter. That trust was built in that 6 to 8 week period we are debating. You have to remember this is a large breed dog and can be very intimidating for most outsiders that is why it is very important you have complete control over your dog at all times. And again we have found this sort of trust is easiest to establish in that time frame. 
However giving your skepticism and the fact that you and your wife both work you are probably right that you would not be able to establish that trust, and leaving a 6 week old puppy for more than 4 hours is unacceptable in my eyes. And although you did say you'd be able to take brakes from work I'm not sure that would be ok at even 8 weeks. With this in mind we are sending you a full refund of your deposit and considering the verbal agreement made null and void.
Please understand that it is our goal to only offer the chance for other family's to experience just how wonderful it is to have a (GSD) as part of the family. But our main concern is for the welfare of our GSD puppies."

So with that my search begins again. I have made contact with Heidi from Theishof and may pursue that further. Her facility and dogs look just amazing. Thanks again for all the help I feel like I really avoided a bad situation. I'll keep you all updated on my progress should I make a decision.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

You will be glad later.


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

Good decision! You won't regret it, I'm sure.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Indeed you will....though I think they are VERY wrong (and illegally) selling puppies at such a young age...you are lucky they sent you your deposit back!


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Wow...nice response in trying to make you feel like crap. Oh well, you did the right thing. Keep us posted on your puppy search/adventures!!


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## lucymom (Jan 2, 2009)

Well that response should validate your decision. What a rude, ignorant, ill-informed letter. I don't even dare ask if they have had the sire and dam hip and elbow certified and presented you with proof of such........

I've been visiting several litters of puppies. All the damns were comfotable allowing people near their litter after meeting us. And the breeder is throwing the word "aggressive" around incorrectly. I don't want ANY companion dog of mine being AGGRESSIVE when people come to the door. I want them to be watchful and aloof but not aggressive. There is no reason for my companion dogs to be aggressive. Protective and aggresive are not the same thing.

Good luck on your search!


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Good decision on your part, you probably saved youself many years of training and behavior modification. I think you made a great choice in Theishoff Kennels, I have a male from that breeding and he is not only beautiful but has a great disposition as well.


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## Milo223 (Aug 11, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JenniferDWell that response should validate your decision. What a rude, ignorant, ill-informed letter. I don't even dare ask if they have had the sire and dam hip and elbow certified and presented you with proof of such........
> 
> I've been visiting several litters of puppies. All the damns were comfotable allowing people near their litter after meeting us. And the breeder is throwing the word "aggressive" around incorrectly. I don't want ANY companion dog of mine being AGGRESSIVE when people come to the door. I want them to be watchful and aloof but not aggressive. There is no reason for my companion dogs to be aggressive. Protective and aggresive are not the same thing.
> 
> Good luck on your search!


You are correct, she said her vet didn't recommend having them certified because it was painful for the dog and doesn't provide any conclusive information on the offspring.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Milo223You are correct, she said her vet didn't recommend having them certified because it was painful for the dog and doesn't provide any conclusive information on the offspring.


Wow. While it's true that dogs with OFA certified hips and normal elbows can still have pups with HD, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't bother to check hips and elbows before breeding a pair of dogs. I can't even believe that a vet advised them not to. And no, it's not painful either.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

well, in the vet's defense, you only have the breeder's word that she was told that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

True, could be BS or she could have heard what she wanted to hear.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

It sounds to me like she's just throwing the 'vet' word around to get people to think she's close to him. My vet this and my vet that when really they probably haven't even been to the vet yet








I don't think any vet would tell her not to get X-rayed. They might be horrible when it comes to nutrition but they're not that ignorant. At least that's what I would like to believe LOL.

I'm glad you went elsewhere. I hope you find the perfect little pupper for your family.


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