# arguing...the good and the bad side...how to utilize?



## Dhrmfirefox (Aug 10, 2015)

Dante is 9 months old now. this is something I have been observing...

Sometimes, we might be playing tug outside and then I will withold the toy from him and he will get argumentative and starts barking a lot, he will often jump up and grab my sleeve and want to tug this. 

similarly, we might be sitting down outside or in the house or anywhere, and he will start barking at me wanting me to do something with him.

In both cases, he argues with me when i say "NO!" and he will continue to bark, and if it pisses me off, I will argue with him back and he will bark more and I understand that it is a game to him when this happens.

the good thing is, is that when he gets all excited and argumentative with me, i will say 'down!' and he goes into down.

I think this sort of arguing happens because he is eager to play and get out there and play. and he responds to when i tell him to calm down and go into down.

On the other hand, when I become frustrated, he uses it against me and that becomes the game.

but what im interested in through posting this, is how he responds to me when i argue with him (when i become frustrated)...he loves it..and it charges him. but my only remedy is to put him into down. 

I do not want to teach him to become argumentative with me, not at all, it really annoys me and makes me frustrated. When I remain relaxed it is good and he calms down too...but all that energy could be used and redirected into the toy...but i do not want to argue with him....I hope im making sense here!

so my question is...is there a way to bring about and channel this argumentative energy?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

With the game of tug, are you adding in commands besides the down position? I would ask for several sits, stands do some recalls and wear out his brain a bit. You could teach him to go around something or 'go' out for the tug after having to sit for a minute or two, which teaches the dog control.
Tug alone is for the oral need to bite, but when it is utilized with obedience the thinking dog will get tired mentally. 
I generally put my dog up in a crate after a session so the dog can process what s/he learned. I may tug all the way back to my ride and crate the dog there. A food treat in the crate ends the session.
Some dogs will push to be engaged, IMO this is great! Turn it into some obedience instead of 'arguing'.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sounds like a boy who needs more exercise. 

Maybe start using that tug toy as a reward for positive behavior. Do some training then pull out the tug and tug, then back in your shirt or pocket, and if he starts to argue, Eh! and the evil eye, then give him more obedience commands. 

Start by rewarding frequently, and then start giving him work harder, perform more things properly to get that tug.


----------



## Dhrmfirefox (Aug 10, 2015)

thanks for these replies.

Yes gets argumentative like this when he is wanting to play and work. and we go out side and wear ourselves out... I dont let arguing equal playtime outside with me though. I first tell him to down and calm down first before we do any work.

I just posted another thread about playing tug, we are new to tug. he is still learning. I have incredible engagement with kong...but tug is new. so I am trying to develop an exciting game for him to play.

when we play tug, I try and withhold too much obedience, only "out" to release the tug, and the other is motivating him to want the toy.

I only down him when he is arguing with me. and he downs (I definitely raise my voice) and he listens.

so yes...turning this energy into a game rather than frustration is going to be important. I really really dislike him jumping up and getting frustrated with me and playing the game against me. it doesnt get too bad, its just something I dont want to repress, I really believe in channeling a dogs instincts. but when he comes up and bites my shirt it's just annoying and i dont like it.


----------



## Dhrmfirefox (Aug 10, 2015)

link to my other post about his average tugging game and super kong game and issues with each: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../634666-kong-obsessions-boring-tug-games.html


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyKGbJQ-ldc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsWnL4VWZNg


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This sounds exactly like my pup at 9 mos. It was for me a be patient and it was a test of wills. She - wanting to dictate play time and pushing as her 9mo self would do and my "this is important" I say where, when and how.....

If she got in one of these pushy moods. I brought her in the house and isolated her in her room. The pushiness soon diminished (15-20min) time out and I took her right back out to resume play or training.

Every time I said no more and she pushed - she got the same result (locked up-time out). Every time she started that snarky behavior - she came to know what a negative result that brought.

Now, when I'm done playing with her and she throws the ball on my foot or whatever - I say "off me" and she goes elsewhere and finds something else to entertain her. I am not her toy....


----------



## Dhrmfirefox (Aug 10, 2015)

love this video. i got Michael Ellis's dvd on tugging, im about one hour in!


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Your dog has drive and wants to play. You need to learn to utilize this drive into a constructive outlet. Dog's are master manipulators and you need to teach your dog to give you desirable behaviors as opposed to what you call "arguing." 

Dogs are not people and we don't "argue" with dogs. Getting frustrated is exactly the wrong response. I would channel this energy into a positive and use it for training. I love "pushy" dogs and dogs with high drive, then I make them higher drive and even "pushier." All of this is done while I am training certain behaviors. The dog's responses are fast and sharp because he has found a way to get his reward. His pushiness turns into accurate obedience or work, his drive is rewarded and I am not frustrated. In the dog's mind, he has found a way to manipulate me to get what he wants. However, the annoying behaviors are not what works for him. He quickly learns that there are key behaviors that get rewarded. There are no time outs, no being put into a down, unless that is the training segment. Since the dog has learned to channel his drive and control his impulses, he is now easy to manage and easy to work. 

There are going to be times when you may need to ignore some annoying behaviors, like the torn shirt when the dog is in drive. Down the road you can address that. I have clothes that I wear just for training, I don't care if they get muddy or torn. What I care about is putting the dog in drive and the dog pushing me to work. 

The Michael Ellis video is really good, you will enjoy it. Good luck with your dog, many people would give their right arm for a dog with nice drive.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I understand what your are saying about using this behavior and pushing it to your desires. But, in the pet household, when there are times that this can be indulged and exploited and there are times it has to be shut down.... you've gotta go - other obilgations, work, famiy etc.... There's alot going on in a pet household where time is limited. How does the OP cap this?


----------



## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what your are saying about using this behavior and pushing it to your desires. But, in the pet household, when there are times that this can be indulged and exploited and there are times it has to be shut down.... you've gotta go - other obilgations, work, famiy etc.... There's alot going on in a pet household where time is limited. How does the OP cap this?


I have toys that I only use for training. If the dog has a kong in the house and is not ready to settle, I will take the toy away. My dogs will relax in the house if there are no toys around. I have three dogs and there are days that I don't get to work all of them or spend a lot of time with each dog. I will simply take the toys away and my dogs will relax and just hang out with me. Owning a high drive dog takes some management, for some dogs giving them a kong will keep them occupied. With my dogs, they bounce off the walls with a toy and you can not watch TV with them in the room. Rather than get frustrated, I take the toys away and the dogs settle down.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't think most pet households have dogs with drives like yours Jim.


----------



## Dhrmfirefox (Aug 10, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what your are saying about using this behavior and pushing it to your desires. But, in the pet household, when there are times that this can be indulged and exploited and there are times it has to be shut down.... you've gotta go - other obilgations, work, famiy etc.... There's alot going on in a pet household where time is limited. How does the OP cap this?



During the day, Dante has six hours alone. We play in the morning, lunch and evening. I am in a situation which allows me be close to him and not be thwarted by work commitments.

When we are outside, Dante is happy to be outside, he likes to run about a bit but we spend most of our time playing with the kong, with the tug toy, with food, and ive been introducing a touch pad.

The motivation for the kong toy, surpasses all the other stimulus' I provide for him. This is what I wish to balance.

When we are not playing, we are inside. He is most of the time, very very good in the house. he will just lax around, if i feel he is unsure of what to do, then I will put him on his mat, or into down, and this comforts him.

When he is alone at home, he sleeps most of the time. I set up a small camera to watch him. and he's very boring to watch lol, but nice to see him rest.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's just started to work for me. I tried to put her balls up before and she would have a royal freak out... crying for them like she was missing a puppy. I'd put them on the washer in the laundry room and she would plant herself whine and eventually fall asleep there waiting for them.... she's getting better though and it's a marked improvement of her throwing them in front of my feet every time I walk across the room.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Play issues have become a common theme for a few posts now. Usually frustration issues like this pop up because there is something fundamentally wrong with how many of us are playing with our dogs. There are periods of conflict and frustration that pop up as a result of a lack of clarity and objectives in our interactions with our dogs in play and frustrated, overly possessive, toy obsessed, or disengaged dogs is the end result.

The only DVDs series I've seen that properly addressed these issues are Ivan Balavanovs the game and possession games which are available on his train per view website.

So if you have issues with a dog that 
1. Doesn't want to give up a toy
2. More obsessed with the toy than with the game you're trying to play with it.
3. Shows signs of frustration or anger at the end of the game or when you're in possession of the toy.
4. Disengages and is easily distracted or just not that into the game

I would highly recommend those two DVDs. You'll see the problem is usually you and not the dog or the toy.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Mine just wants the game to go on 24/7. She wants the ball so that she can throw it at me. She wedges it under my rolling office chair so I can't avoid it. She knows when I'm getting ready to go to bed and when I pull back the covers - she's buried it in there and is standing there wagging her tail to play. When I'm working, she'll sneek it in my chair so when I lean back it squeeks.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Because your signals to start and end the game are either not present, not clear, not enforced, or you've allowed the dog to see many pictures where you've let the dog start the game with similar behavior in the past. That kind of thing is covered in those videos as well.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Ha! Yes I have. Geez Bailiff - I wish you'd quit chasing me around with that darn mirror.... Just kidding, I did indeed at one point in time or another began the ball game with her in every location that she's hitting on. Man, all it took was once for her to continue these patterns over a year later?

To tell you the truth - I'm not sure I want to structure this away because part of this makes me laugh and brings me little bits of happiness thruout my day. It's not all bad, even though it's not logical. She'll actually flip my hand right off the mouse when I've been at the computer too long and she's overdue for a play session and often I start it by giving the ball a soft kick across the room - so yep, it is all on me...... Thanks again for the clarity.


----------



## Dhrmfirefox (Aug 10, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Because your signals to start and end the game are either not present, not clear, not enforced, or you've allowed the dog to see many pictures where you've let the dog start the game with similar behavior in the past. That kind of thing is covered in those videos as well.


Yes yes yes!

This is good. 

I have taught Dante to get ready to play, "Do want to play?" and have followed this pattern for a while and he knows what it means. but other signals tell him too...(see below)

However I have not taught him the signal to end the game. I only included this in the past couple of days with "All Finished". 

And yes he must be getting confused and excited.

This morning for example, we sit around in the house before we train (as i eat breakfast and drink coffee).

I sat around and had my coffee, and then i put it away. then he got excited cos he knows that once the TV is off and ive finished my coffee.. it is time to play.

then he got super excited and was ready to go for it! and we argued a little bit.

So this is right...he needs to remain calm until I tell him. he is just realising its soon to be play time.

for example, he does the same when i put my dog training clothes on. he knows!


----------



## stingeragent (Mar 23, 2016)

This may be of no help, and I'm fairly new to dog training, but have you taught the place command? I've been working a LOT on this with my daschund, and he just hates it, because he knows as soon as he gets on that place, he's gonna have to be calm and stay put for 30 seconds at a time, or several minutes depending on what I'm doing. By the time we are done training, and I typically try to end with a long place command, he's ready to just go do his own thing and chill. I know daschunds and GSD are worlds apart, but that's what I have seen thus far.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

stingeragent said:


> This may be of no help, and I'm fairly new to dog training, but have you taught the place command? I've been working a LOT on this with my daschund, and he just hates it, because he knows as soon as he gets on that place, he's gonna have to be calm and stay put for 30 seconds at a time, or several minutes depending on what I'm doing. By the time we are done training, and I typically try to end with a long place command, he's ready to just go do his own thing and chill. I know dachshunds and GSD's are worlds apart, but that's what I have seen thus far.


 LOL talk about ... cue me! 

That Dashy sounds like a real piece of work?? But 30 seconds to a few minuets?? You need to start putting more "pressure" on him! The goal should be a two hour "Place" he needs to learn to chill the heck out where you "Place" him. 

To the OP I have no idea input on the "tug thing," that and the whole "engagement" for "correct" free training are "mysteries" in "Pet People World" ... I "talk" to members. on the "other side." 

But my first chosen breed "specialize" in crazy ... Boxers! And "Place" has been a big hit on "BoxerForum." And the best way conflict way to put on a cap on them is with the "Place Command"and "Sit on the Dog" pretty sure it's all covered in here! 

Those both teach "calming" behavior into a dog. 

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Every dog should be taught these.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL talk about ... cue me!
> 
> That Dashy sounds like a real piece of work?? But 30 seconds to a few minuets?? You need to start putting more "pressure" on him! The goal should be a two hour "Place" he needs to learn to chill the heck out where you "Place" him.
> 
> ...


Your message would be much clearer if you added a few more quotation marks! :lurking:


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your message would be much clearer if you added a few more quotation marks! :lurking:


Hmm ... secret mod on "BoxerForum??" These ... (!!) have been mentioned also! :laugh2:

Been trying "hard" to work my out of the:








mode.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I noticed my young male GSD is very tuned into cues and routines, moreso then my other dogs. I learned with him I have to change things around with the household routines.


In addition to Ballif's advice I would mix the routine up a bit too so that he's not cuing off preceding actions or environment, but rather your commands.


It's a good problem to have IMO because you can channel his ability to be tuned in to you in a positive way. :smile2:










Dhrmfirefox said:


> Yes yes yes!
> 
> This is good.
> 
> ...


----------

