# 2YO unfixed male - aggression in certain circumstances



## Derby (Feb 13, 2012)

I would like to start by saying that I didn't mean for this to be this long but I thought it was important to include the details*

My Dog(derby):








*Derby 2YO German Shephard 
I got the dog 8 months ago his owner passed away and I gave him a new home. He is not fixed. He was good with most dogs when I got him although he tends to not get along with some male dogs(mostly unfixed) hes completely fine with the dogs upstairs and with most female dogs he's fine. I'm working on basic obedience training - come, sit ,down, stay, fetch and im working on some basic tracking(find the ball) and so on and hes a very smart dog and can do the basic commands but I need to teach him to be nice to people when he sees me shake there hand(Which he is a little better once he sees this) He usually takes some time but will eventually calm down and just sit there but he will will not let his guard down while they are there. You can always tell it he is not going to be friendly with someone by how his ears are sitting they will point right up when he doesn't like someone and go to the sides once hes calmed down

*Me:*
This Dog loves me im 26 live in a basement apt in a shared house with a big back yard just outside a city. I live on my own and am the main caretaker of the dog he also goes upstairs with my landlord his girlfriend and his 2 dogs a black lab and a jack russell when I go to work and out on occasion 

*People:*
*At Home:* He has various levels of aggression he barks when almost everyone but my landlord comes to the door at home some people he knows and is fine with once he sees who it is but I have a few friends that he doesn't see that often and he wants to run at them then bark very aggressively and I am afraid he is going to bite someone especially since he isn't in my care everyday now he seems to be much better upstairs but its like he feels the need to protect his house he is more aggressive with people if there is food in his bowl or if he is chewing a bone he is also much worse with those who act like they are scared for new people I put him on a leash and try to make him lay down on his mat when people come in he always wants to bark and it isnt a woof woof its a scary sounding bark

*Not at home*: When I take him out in public in some places hes fine with most people but I take him out on the ice ice fishing and he hates every guy that walks up to him there are a few people that he meets and doesn't like then he seems to start liking them once he has seen them a bunch of times but I would like him to be friendlier with people at my house. He is not as aggressive with toys or food when I take him to friends houses that he is good with he will play with the toys they have etc
*By Gender:* He definitely more often dislikes larger older males he has been pretty good with the kids that he has been around many females he is pretty good with but there are a few girls that have come over that he doesn't like as much 

*Other Dogs:*
*At Home:* 
He is fine with most of the neighborhood dogs if one roams over when hes tied up outside but inside my basement apt he gets more aggressive hes less aggressive upstairs with my landlord and the other dogs. Dogs that have been in the house again better with females then males although he is fine if the dogs upstairs come in my apt
*Not at home:* I take him to the pet store and he is fine he has been fine with every dog that he sees there. but I take him out on the ice ice fishing with me and he is aggressive towards a male god both a small puppy at first and another random dog that walked over. He has been walking on trails and will just play with another dog but once we get to the other dogs house he will bark at it
*By Gender*: He is good with some male dogs that are fixed and unfixed but others he really just doesn't like more often unfixed males he is not friendly with I don't know if ive seen him around a female dog that he doesn t like he is always friendly with the girls (Typical guy eh)

That the problem the question is what steps do I need to take to make this better. I understand he is not going to like everyone he sees but I would like him do not scare my friends away or potential girlfriends 
*
Training Suggestions?*
Any suggestions or ideas on first steps I should take I'm trying to avoid spending a ton on obedience classes if there are some basic training techniques I can do to make him better at this. 

*Medical suggestions?*
Will getting him neutered help this in general some of the male dog issues only? My vet said the main benefit is that he will not want to take off when he sees females as much will it make him like males more? human males too? I want to avoid giving him drugs as I think this is something that can be done through training


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd encourage neutering on the basis, "it cannot hurt, and might help".
But your dog sounds fearful and uncertain.
What kind of things do you to ensure he sees you as leader?


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## Derby (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for the quick reply. I constantly tell him what to do and make sure he come though doors behind me. I sure there are others that I do naturally I am generally pretty stern with him but he gets in this zone when new people come around.

Any suggestions?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Follow this link. Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

And this one. I like MIND GAMES for dogs who are unsure of themselves.

Nothing in Life is Free

use crate time and "long downs", also leash him to you and just "wear him" around the house at least 1x a day.
You don't (and shouldn't!) have to muscle him around to teach him manners and that you're in charge.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Yes, neutering absolutely could hurt, and not just in an indirect sense - it could very directly affect your current problem. Neutering a dog who is displaying symptoms of fear aggression *can* make the problem worse. Note, I said can, not will. And if it backfires, it's a "solution" that is irreversible.

Testosterone is not a magic aggression hormone. You can't simply add it and expect a mean dog and take it away and expect a nice dog. Our dog's bodies are not machines and are not that simple, they are very complex biological organisms with various systems that interact in very intricate and compounded ways.

I would start by pushing socialization, hard. Get him out and about around people at least, bare minimum, 1-2 hours a day, if possible. Whatever you can fit in. Maximize good exposure to people. If you sense the fearful body language or even vocalizations, treat. If it's still too much, have him go in a down-stay while people walk by at a distance. Show him he can count on you to "protect" him if he is nervous. But ultimately you want him to get to the point where he doesn't need to feel nervous in the first place. Reward him with treats when he acts the way you want him to.

My dog is tricky, when I first started working on getting him better around people he was too stressed to eat. I used praise instead, which was a VERY slow motivator, but it worked, in time. Go just before dinnertime if possible so he is hungry. Skip a meal, if necessary. If you are using praise, massage his shoulders, using lots of pressure. That is relaxing to a dog.

If you are using corrections (the use of force/pain, etc) in training, stop now. Unless you are working with a very experienced trainer these can make the problem worse. He's not aggressive - he's afraid. If you haven't taken him to see a dog behavioralist/trainer, I'd recommend that. That was an absolutely vital part in getting Samson over his neophobia issues (fear of new situations/things/people, etc).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Draug, I get that you are anti-neuter. 

But in the case of a rescued dog, who is displaying symptoms such as this, it will not hurt _at all_ to get the testosterone out of the picture.
Veterinarians are very good about pain control and can give that while the dog is there, and also prescribe it for after the surgery. 
This dog is fully grown at this point, being over 2yrs. of age so it's not like the neuter would interfere with growth.

To the OP, don't just take the dog out more without a plan because you're going to run into the same symptoms. I'd recommend enlisting the assistance as well of a professional trainer who uses positive training methods. If they recommend techniques such as alpha rolling, run away fast


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Neutering can and does affect Temeperament sometimes. I would never neuter a dog that was having issues until the issues were resolved. I hesitate about it just because I have seen cases where neutering made the situations worse. I think that eventually it should be done as it *MAY* help his aggression towards other males...but that is fairly typical behavior from a male IME. 

I would definetely get into classes with a good trainer or get a private trainer. 

He sounds a little unsure about things....possibly due to being rehomed due a death. I don't care what others say, I fully believe that affects dogs. You have only had him 8 months, get some good training going and reward him when he is doing what you want him too. At this point, I would always have him on leash in public and at the ice where you fish if you don't already. Give people treats to feed him and make sure that they are like super good irresistible yummy treats that ONLY other people give him. 

I would flood him with socialization, like a 1/2 hour everyday....meeting a certain amount of new people a day etc. 

But the best advice I can offer is get a good trainer on board to help you. 

*You do need to expect sdome level of guarding behavior from him in the house, as the GSD IMHO should guard their house to a point. As soon as you tell them that person is ok, they need to either ignore or approach the person. That is just MY opinion.*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think the crux of the problem lies here 
Quoting you, " am the main caretaker of the dog he also goes upstairs with my landlord his girlfriend and his 2 dogs a black lab and a jack russell when I go to work and out on occasion 

and ...and I am afraid he is going to bite someone especially since he isn't in my care everyday now he seems to be much better upstairs 

Too much "community dog" . You don't know if your landlord is actively promoting behaviour that you do not want , or undoing work that you have put in.
Too confusing for the dog.

I would limit his exposure to others to when you are there . If the landlord makes an error in his judgement and the dog does bite you are the one having to deal with it.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Draug, I get that you are anti-neuter.
> 
> But in the case of a rescued dog, who is displaying symptoms such as this, it will not hurt _at all_ to get the testosterone out of the picture.
> Veterinarians are very good about pain control and can give that while the dog is there, and also prescribe it for after the surgery.
> ...


I'm not anti-anything, I'm pro-helping this dog. I just don't jump right on the "neuter,neuter,neuter" train at the first glimpse. I'd rather reserve surgery to where it is medically needed.

Suggesting that it could not possibly hurt to neuter this dog is not only blatantly false _any way you look at it_, _*in any circumstance or for any dog that is said about*_ - here, specifically, it's an irresponsible and potentially disastrous suggestion given how spay/neuter can negatively affect the temperament of an already fearful dog. If you're so convinced testosterone is a magic "bad dog" hormone, then perhaps a better suggestion - that is _reversible_ - is to use testosterone blockers to see if his behavior improves at all. Given that the problem here is almost certainly fear, I am reasonably confident in saying that would do nothing...at best.

I have a feeling that training is what is needed here...not surgery. But that's just me.


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## Derby (Feb 13, 2012)

Carmspack - I should also mention that he has a bit of seperation anxiety He will cry and bark if I put him in the crate most times which will wake up my landlord and his gf so they have been nice enough to let me [ut him up there when I leave for work. My vet also mentioned that this is better for his teeth then biting on his crate all day. The first metal crate that I had he had bent bars on an escaped from a few times. I do still crate him occasionally when I am home and have recently purchased a larger plastic style crate that he seems to like better

msvette2u - The mind games on that site are great I will definitely be implementing some of those into my training right away

Draugr - I am still on the fence about neutering him in general but I did not expect that would be the easy resolution and I do think that it is better to do once the problem has been fixed unless it is something that is vreating a challenge I will defintily start upping his socialization level I usually take him to the pet store once or twice a week where he is almost always good except the odd person that rubs him the wrong way he will bark at and I will take him out ice fishing with me on the weekend where he will bark when anyone starts moving aside from my buddy that I fish with who he is now friendly with but always gets scared until he realizes its him. When I take him ice fishing I usually tie him up to an ice peg when I take him to the pet store he is on leash I usually only let him off leash in the house or when I take him on trails where I know there is no one else around occasionally in the backyard playing fetch but its not fenced and he has started to wander and not come when I call him. he will always come when I call him inside

Thanks for your input please continue

The one challenge I have is that he will not take treats at the pet store where he is being good and is always on leasg, He will take them at friends houses the ones that he knows and is good with he goes off leash in their house but He will take treats on the ice where he is usually the worst and usually tied up. I know ice fishing seasons almost over but would it be good to stop taking him on the ice or is it better to take him more often and use this as an opportunity to correct his behavior? I can get him to sit and stay and he wont bark if we are standing talking but as soon as the person moves he gets up and barks at them. Any tricks to get him to take treats in the pet store?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

People are too quick to suggest neutering as a fix all for behavioral problems in my experience...
I agree with Carm...crate train the dog and limit contact with others when you are not around
A good trainer can help you fix this problem. I would try behavior modification before permanently altering your pet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I say neuter because when we get males in rescue with "issues", it generally does help to neuter them. We do anyway, because of obvious reasons.
I do not think it's a cure-all. I never said that. But I rarely see anything negative associated with it, either.
There'll need to be extensive training. Any time an adult dog is subjected to such changes all the sudden, there needs to be anyway. 

What I said was it helps (usually) to get testosterone (hormones) out of the mix. 
That said, it will take around 3mos. to fully see the effect of removing that hormone. 

To the OP, please feel free to message me about the "Mind Games" and other obedience oriented suggestions, we have had many dogs come here that had issues similar to your dogs and the Mind Games and other such training techniques helped them tremendously.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Derby, whatever you do be certain the dog is managed so that he cannot bite someone (including another dog). IF that requires a muzzle, then muzzle him when necessary. You need to up your confidence & be very clear that you control the interactions with your dog & others at all times.

My Amer Bulldog was severely traumatized before we got her. My daughter, who knew Spanky both before & after the trauma, feels that her personality underwent permanent changes. She's not good with small animals (cats & dogs), she's unpredictable, she's very reactive, she's powerful, athletic & FAST. It kills me, I HATE it, but I muzzle her in public. I realllly do not want to be that owner whose dog maims/kills an innocent cat or Yorkie at Petsmart or the vet's office. Or whose dog bit a human due to re-directed aggression. It makes her look mean. And I HATE it, but ultimately she's safer.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I would start by getting a good trainer and figuring out a game plan from this point on. I also agree with some of the suggestions to "keep him to yourself" for a while. Bouncing between living situations after a trauma such as a death could be adding to his insecurity and stress. Working to get him used to the crate will be a wonderful thing.


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

*Sounds like my GSD*

My GSD is almost exactly and he was officially diagnosed fear-aggressive today. Most likely he wasn't socialised enough at 3-16 weeks, along with other factors. He was diagnosed by the vet working under Debra Horwitz,(debra actually makes the clinical diagnoses) . Dr. Horwitz is wrote/edited the "BSAVA Manual of Canine and Feline Behavioural Medicine". 

For his treatment the last step suggested was neutering. Everything else for counter conditioning and managing came first. 
The study that everyone uses is this one The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior | Association of Animal Behavior Professionals . 

The study only showed a 15% chance in overall aggression decrease in fear-based aggression. 

The biggest item and one I am debating is the neutering affects he level of response but the underlying problem of fear and aggressive response is going to be there, but his response "might" not be as hard. 

So I haven't decided to neuter him because he is only 12 months now. And his testosterone has already peeked and is on the down slope. I don't know if it will help or do more harm, because there isn't any scientific proof that it will help him, only a very slim chance. 


Your dog probably has a fear on the ice or something is triggering a fear. I would suspect the ice . My dog is triggered by high contrast scenes. 
Dogs have limited color spectrum , so on the ice he can see things very clearly and it is different triggering a response out of him. 

Suggestions if he is really fear based. 
1)Don't use a shock collar , trust me I tried . It freeked him out so much he was huddling in my wife's lap. 
2) Don't use pronged collar ( I had one , he got freaked out an now has nasty scare). 

Fear base aggression is worst problem to deal with,very un-predictable. 



I would suggest a muzzle if you think he might bite someone. GSD can do a lot of damage even with a little nip and 90 % percent of dogs euthanized, weigh over 40 lbs. Sucks the most aggressive dog breed is actually a dachshund. Nobody really complains when the wiener dog bites someone. I got a nice cage one from Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 300 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis . 

I have other dogs that were dominate and well I used some dominate techniques but they don't work well with fear based. 
Also you will run into the all positive trainers and all dominance trainers. I would just try them out and see if they work. 
There is no cure all for it , anyone that says they can fix it out right is full of it. You can make it less to almost no reaction. 


Good news for us, the vet was amazed how even under his extreme fear of strangers he was still under my verbal control. Now the vet couldn't come up and pet him but he would stop barking and lie down on command, eventually he went to sleep. 

Good luck, it is a lot of work. Trust me we have great days and he reacts to nothing. And some days well he just is crazy . And he hate little old ladies, they freak him out the most, they walk way to slow.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

From that study--


> Testosterone tends to promote greater reactivity in dogs. They trigger a little quicker to aversive stimuli and respond a bit more intensely and for slightly longer duration. Affecting the magnitude of aggressive behavior could be particularly helpful in many cases.


Curious why you'd not choose to get it out of the way since they are even stating that this is the case?



> If an intact dog demonstrates aggressive behavior neutering should be considered as an adjunct to other behavior modification practices


This is even the recommendation found in the study you posted. 
My theory (which I stated earlier) is, it cannot hurt (yes pain can be managed quite nicely) and it just might help. In our rescued dog population, they generally do get a lot better as far as behaviors go, so that's been my experience so far (rescuing for 10yrs now).



> Ben and Hart at the University of California carried out one of the most extensive surveys on the effects of gonadectomy on dogs, finding that* at least in intermale aggression, aggression was reduced by neutering in 60% of cases with rapid reduction in 25%, and gradual reduction in 35% (Fogle, 1990, p. 53).* Neilson, Eckstein, and Hart, (1997) found that approximately 25% of adult dogs that were aggressive toward humans or other dogs in the household can be expected to have a 50 to 90% level of improvement after gonadectomy. A 50 - 90% level of improvement can likewise be observed in 10 to 15% of dogs that are aggressive toward unfamiliar people or human territorial intruders after gonadectomy.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

This isn't actual aggression, though, msvette. At least, not that we can establish for sure.

It's more likely _fear_. And we aren't talking about the pain of the healing process as to whether it "hurts" him or not - we're talking about how it could affect his temperament and his long-term health outlook. Saying it cannot hurt is both wrong and very misleading.

Yes, it might help. I will even admit that. It's possible. But, it could hurt (which I think is more likely, given that this dog seems to be displaying _fear_-based aggression - a very different construct than true aggression). And at that point, you've done something irreversible.

Fear aggression is not a sexually dimorphic behavior. This dog does not seem to be displaying consistent SSA (the dogs he is displaying behaviors toward that the OP interprets as aggressive happen to be male - and yet some of them, he's fine with). which leads me to believe it is fear based. Not hormone-based. And from most places I've read - castration is not an effective treatment for fear aggression, and can even make it worse. Even in the study you quoted a mere 10-15% of dogs improved - which, at least in my mind, is a pretty wide margin for misinterpretation of the source of fear (SSA vs fear vs ?).

Even if neutering did nothing, it's still a waste of time. This dog needs behavioral therapy, not surgery. I understand why people do this to rescued dogs. It makes sense to me. But we are talking about an individual's dog.

Perhaps it does help to decrease reactivity. That _might_ help the issue of fear aggression. Who knows. Being optimistic as possible, neutering this dog would be a complete crapshoot that has....heck knows what chance of bettering the problem, worsening the problem, or doing nothing whatsoever. It's an irreversible, ineffective scattershot approach, when there's something that is specifically designed to target behavior problems - training. Socialization.

As I've said before you can go the much more safe, reversible route by using testosterone blockers and see if his problems are hormonal based (remember to isolate this factor by not changing up your training routine - otherwise you can't tell whether the training or the blockers are changing his behavior). If they make it worse - little harm done. If they do nothing - just like with the previous situation, you're probably looking at fear aggression. If they make the problem better, you can consider a more permanent solution at that time.

You do not want to make a hasty, irrational decision to tinker with a dog's intricate biology and not be able to reverse that later. Behavior is a very complex concept.

That's all I really have to say on the subject, I guess. I think I just mostly repeated what I said before.

ETA:

http://www.caninesports.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

(Page 2, Figure 3)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Perhaps it does help to decrease reactivity. That might help the issue of fear aggression.


I believe it helps in all cases, but that's because I've seen boys become more biddable, just generally all around better behavior. 
I will also admit that ingrained behavior such as they mention in that study, might not be helped at all.

But it's a scientific fact that testosterone increases aggressive behavior, so IMO, any boy with issues should also be neutered coincidentally with behavioral therapies, unless you believe you may have to euthanize the dog due to those behaviors and thus don't want to spend the money (in our case that is, with the rescue). But any vet will tell you that it'll reduce the tendency for aggression. Where this dog has _male-male_ aggression, it's a good place to start.

I know there's pain associated with neuter and if that, to you, is a huge factor, you can give tramadol and rimadyl together to reduce the likelihood of a painful experience with the surgery.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I believe it helps in all cases, but that's because I've seen boys become more biddable, just generally all around better behavior.
> I will also admit that ingrained behavior such as they mention in that study, might not be helped at all.


Fair enough. I don't believe it helps in all cases, but that just comes down to a difference of opinion.

I think you did touch on a good point that ingrained, learned behavior is not likely to be affected. That is not something I'd even thought about before.



> But it's a scientific fact that testosterone increases aggressive behavior


Actually, no it isn't. That's a...um, I'm not sure of the terminology. Urban legend doesn't seem right. But something like that.

No direct link has ever been able to be established between testosterone and aggression. No mechanism has ever been discovered that shows how it (may?) creates aggressive behavior. Some studies find a certain level of _correlation_ - others fail to find any link at all. But so far, all we have is correlation, maybe - and that isn't causation.

To be fair this is related to primates and specifically humans, not dogs - but I've never really found a study that examines this link in dogs on a useful scale. It is a very wishy-washy link at best.

In that same link, I believe - as well as another called "Non-reproductive effects of spaying and neutering" found that spayed/neutered dogs were slightly more aggressive than intact ones (when looking closely at the data, the difference was small, which they did not really go into great detail on).

And we're talking about a wishy-washy link toward _true_ aggression. Not fear manifesting itself with behaviors we interpret as aggressive.



> , so IMO, any boy with issues should also be neutered coincidentally with behavioral therapies,


And my big problem with this is that you are expecting a very intricate biological mechanism to behave like a machine with a single input and output. You can't possibly predict or know if this will help, hurt, or do nothing - and the study I posted at the end of my last post there shows...it's likely going to hurt. But, that's across "all dogs" (in essence) - this is an individual.



> But any vet will tell you that it'll reduce the tendency for aggression.


Some vets also tell you that your dog needs seven shots every year to remain immune to disease, and that there's nothing better for him to chow down on than Hill's Prescription Science Diet, available for $40 per 15lbs right in his office.

Vets are in a unique position where many feel obligated to...push owners to spay/neuter. Because they directly deal with the results of the idiocy of their customers when they call them up at 3am with a pregnant bitch that is having problems birthing for the third time. When there is any doubt many will just choose to push the issue. I can understand why they do that.



> Where this dog has _male-male_ aggression, it's a good place to start.


Except we don't know that he has male-male aggression. The fact that he has displayed aggression toward "some" males does not make this conclusive SSA.



> I know there's pain associated with neuter and if that, to you, is a huge factor, you can give tramadol and rimadyl together to reduce the likelihood of a painful experience with the surgery.


For a second time...not talking about pain. I'm talking about how removing a primary hormone from a complex biological system cannot possibly be expected to reliably give you the same result 100% of the time - and how at least two studies, that I've linked now (well I just gave the title of one), show that it really is _not_ the best route to go, for fear-based aggression. I'm also talking about the long-term health effects that neutered males are predisposed to (although that is a completely separate argument than this dog's behavior). The pain is temporary and I could care less about that.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Actually, no it isn't. That's a...um, I'm not sure of the terminology. Urban legend doesn't seem right. But something like that.
> 
> No direct link has ever been able to be established between testosterone and aggression. No mechanism has ever been discovered that shows how it (may?) creates aggressive behavior. Some studies find a certain level of correlation - others fail to find any link at all. But so far, all we have is correlation, maybe - and that isn't causation.
> 
> To be fair this is related to primates and specifically humans, not dogs - but I've never really found a study that examines this link in dogs on a useful scale. It is a very wishy-washy link at best.


Are you sure about that? You can PM me studies if you wish (I'd like to see them but we're straying off topic) because everything I've seen and read (and heard) indicates aggression secondary to testosterone production...which would explain why teen boys are often the worst for getting into fights and other risky behaviors??


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Are you sure about that? You can PM me studies if you wish (I'd like to see them but we're straying off topic) because everything I've seen and read (and heard) indicates aggression secondary to testosterone production...which would explain why teen boys are often the worst for getting into fights and other risky behaviors??


I can see what I can dig up. But I think that is mostly related to delayed frontal lobe development (which is, among other things, responsible for determining consequence of action). 

Boys mature much more slowly than girls (just as true in humans as it is in dogs!), so combined with the changes their body goes through during puberty - you get risk-taking behaviors. And it's not really a "risk" to them - they just honestly do not see the consequences as well as an adult, or even a girl of the same age.

There's also a very strong social element, a stigma, if you will, against men appearing to be weak, and needing to stand up for themselves (and women). Much of that behavior is not hormonal so much as it is related to peer pressure. Aggressive behavior is expected of young boys by their peers, and others. Societal pressure, of sort. I will freely admit it took me a very long time to learn to just shrug off insults and look the other way compared to my female classmates. While I never got in a fight I certainly reacted with plenty of anger and aggression. Maybe my mother should have gotten me neutered . I'm sure it entered her head at one point or another.

(see, I can joke about this topic!!!)

And, too, there is the element of media which glorifies violence as a means of solving problems. While I'm not so stupid as to suggest that violent video games turn children into killers who do not understand the consequence of death - I certainly believe it can shape a developing brain to have less inhibitions on violence as a _possible_ solution. This is probably a lesser factor than peer pressure, however.

~

I agree with you that testosterone is generally NOT going to be a calming hormone. It is, again, "generally" more of a reactionary hormone. But I don't think there is a direct effect and I think the way hormones affect behavior is far too complex to *reliably* expect a certain behavioral change on an individual. Patterns only emerge over groups - which is why you have seen it help, more than hurt. There's also a perception bias at play, and the fact that we tend to discard data which does not agree with our views (and I'm not knocking you for that, at all! Everyone does it! Even me! If you're human, it's not possible to avoid it.) 

Anyway, those patterns, from groups, are not useful to an individual dog as a _definitive_ predictor (which is why I have a problem with attempting a "maybe" solution that is permanent and irreversible). And again, at least according to those two dog-related studies I mentioned, there is a strong correlation between castrated males and generalized anxiety/fear, with it being worse the earlier the dog is snipped (and I'm sure we could fill a 100-page thread with possible reasons that may or may not be causation).

Testosterone - PsychWiki - A Collaborative Psychology Wiki

That is an incredibly poorly written high-school level paper, so I apologize, but in doing a quick search for some corroborating material, it does sum up some of the basics - and one I forgot to mention (that we can't even tell if testosterone rising caused aggression, or if the aggressive behavior caused testosterone to rise).

Male Aggression

This here is an excerpt from a book that does a far better job of explaining why there may be an evolutionary rationale behind the idea that winning any sort of competition - an aggressive fight or not - increases testosterone levels (not the other way around - testosterone causing the behaviors). Makes mention of a study of monkeys who displayed aggressive behavior, but did not win or lose the conflict - and testosterone levels were unchanged. Also a link to what may actually be causing aggressive behaviors, a specific part of the frontal lobe. In that case, we're talking about an indirect cause, and you could be opening up a whole 'nother can of worms in terms of expected behavior (which would match up with what I'm saying - neutering the dog would be a scattershot, ineffective, perhaps even negative approach).

ETA: That also gives me an interesting thought. Poorly trained dogs with no guidance tend to be those with _severe_ aggression issues. I mean, actual aggression. Since they've been provided no discipline in life, is it possible their testosterone levels have been allowed to continually rise as they kept "winning" competitions with their owner, creating a sort of bizarre feedback loop?

I wish hormones were simple. But, a big one like this, affects far too much for me to say it could ONLY help. Or that it would definitely help even a little, period. There are just too many bizarre and complex interactions and environmental variables thrown in the mix for good measure for anyone to really get a handle on it.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Addendum: Derby, I'm so sorry for taking this so far off track. I hope the discussion is at least interesting for you and provides some food for thought for making an ultimate decision concerning your pup. Please interrupt us at any time with questions or updates .


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I was talking to my vet about this..neutering for behavior issues more significantly aggression in general. He said that in his 30 some years of being a vet, he has not seen an aggressive dog completely change after being neutered. He said in SOME cases it can help and in others he has seen, it has made the dog more aggressive. It really depends on the dog. 

He also said that genetic behaviors are set and neutering or spaying is not going to affect a truly genetic behavior. That the best bet is behavior modification and hard work. 

Neutering just really isn't the be end all of all behavior problems. I would never reccomend neutering a fearful dog. That could be a disaster.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Draugr said:


> Addendum: Derby, I'm so sorry for taking this so far off track. I hope the discussion is at least interesting for you and provides some food for thought for making an ultimate decision concerning your pup. Please interrupt us at any time with questions or updates .




I'm still on the m-m aggression. Bear with me a few moments.

Males are biologically programmed to compete for the breeding rights to a female. Even leaving testosterone out of it (which of course we can't really do 100% since they are boys and, well, have it)

If there's two intact males and a female in heat, there'd be a fight I am sure. I have had males aggress towards _me_ when out on a call involving a stray male who was being aggressive to homeowners when their female was in heat (duh). 

Another case where two males had fought over a female at the property (in heat) and the resident male was warding off a stray male that had shown up. Everyone was intact.

Anyway - I'm not saying that they walk around defending a female in heat because that is obviously not the case. But they are biologically primed to be prepared for that potential.
Because dogs in our current society have a lot of baggage so to speak, there's all kinds of normal but a lot of abnormal interactions (leashed dogs for instance) between dogs so there is a lot we don't even notice going on.

I do believe for the m-m aggression you are seeing right now, neutering may in fact help. That is, male dog-male dog, not human male aggression. 
That will have to be addressed by your trainer. Animals are programmed to compete within their species for breeding rights so to speak, but buffalos don't go challenging antelopes for those same rights. 

That said, the sheriff had to shoot the dog on scene (with the female in heat) as he was too dangerous/aggressive for me to catch...he was truly guarding that girl. What a mess


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> If there's two intact males and a female in heat, there'd be a fight I am sure. I have had males aggress towards _me_ when out on a call involving a stray male who was being aggressive to homeowners when their female was in heat (duh).


Heck I don't care if they've got the twins or not, two males, period, and a female and heat is just asking for a fight.

Some of that is hormonal but a lot of it is biological "programming" right at the most base levels of brain functioning.


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

If it is fear based aggression , neutering will have only have a little effect on the outcome. Again FEAR based aggression. 

Fear response is a natural biology response in all mammals. When in fearful/stressful situation *ALL* mammals bodies produce catecholamine hormones, such as adrenaline or noradrenaline. Flight or Fight response. 
These are the primary hormones that drive fear/stress related responses. 

Catecholamine hormones give prey that extra kick that might save there life. 

Notice it applies to females and males, and testosterone isn't one of them. 
Watch the National Geography Stress the silent killer. 

There is nice study of baboons over the last 30 years. Aggression was a learned behavior and the primary causes of stress in the troop were just few bad apples that caused all the others in the troop to be more aggressive. Most of the aggressive responses were triggered by stress. 


Sorry there is little scientific evidence to support neutering has any effect on fear/stress related aggression. 

Almost every vet recommends it solely to control animal populations and make money. 

Every vet I have talked to when they bring up the neutering aggression suggestion(there have been 5 already). I quickly say "citation needed" , oh and I am mathematician by trade and most of the studies out there the sample sizes too small, too much variation in the samples ie the samples are not truly random. Pretty much all the studies and methods for statistics depend on the sample being random if not it is bogus. 


There is a reason why Richard Feynman(pretty much invented quantum physics ) went off psychology. 
All experiments in psychology are not of this [cargo cult] type, however. For example there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds of mazes, and so on — with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train rats to go to the third door down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the door where the food had been the time before.
The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe they were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell.
He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go to the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell.
Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running experiments sensible, because it uncovers the clues that the rat is really using — not what you think it's using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat-running.
I looked into the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or of being very careful. They just went right on running rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic of cargo cult science. 

"Cargo Cult Science", adapted from a commencement address given at Caltech (1974)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noradrenaline


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

If it is fear based aggression , neutering will have only have a little effect on the outcome. Again FEAR based aggression. 

Fear response is a natural biology response in all mammals. When in fearful/stressful situation *ALL* mammals bodies produce catecholamine hormones, such as adrenaline or noradrenaline. Flight or Fight response. 
These are the primary hormones that drive fear/stress related responses. 

Catecholamine hormones give prey that extra kick that might save there life. 

Notice it applies to females and males, and testosterone isn't one of them has large effect in stressful situations. 
Watch the National Geography Stress the silent killer. 

There is nice study of baboons over the last 30 years. Aggression was a learned behavior and the primary causes of stress in the troop were just few bad apples that caused all the others in the troop to be more aggressive. Most of the aggressive responses were triggered by stress. 


Sorry there is little scientific evidence to support neutering has any effect on fear/stress related aggression. 

Almost every vet recommends it solely to control animal populations and make money. 



There is a reason why Richard Feynman(pretty much invented quantum physics ) went off psychology. 
All experiments in psychology are not of this [cargo cult] type, however. For example there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds of mazes, and so on — with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train rats to go to the third door down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the door where the food had been the time before.
The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe they were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell.
He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go to the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell.
Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running experiments sensible, because it uncovers the clues that the rat is really using — not what you think it's using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat-running.
I looked into the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or of being very careful. They just went right on running rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic of cargo cult science. 

"Cargo Cult Science", adapted from a commencement address given at Caltech (1974)
 
Neutering/spaying for aggression is a cargo cult.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Sorry there is little scientific evidence to support neutering has any effect on fear/stress related aggression.


I never said it would. But we're not 100% sure what 'type' aggression this is, although I'm willing to say the dog is showing signs of _uncertainty._ 

However, all along I have said neutering cannot hurt and "might" help. 

Not "will definitely" help. I never said that at all (go back to my original posts). Because I know it won't help that.

But it could very well have a positive affect on other things in this dog's life and interactions with his person.


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

There are kinds of negative effects that have been found to neutering, with slim chance affecting aggression. 

I do find it funny that low testosterone in humans causes all kinds of negative effects and humans are actually treated for low testosterone. 

But most vets argue that low testosterone in other mammals is healthy? 

On one hand low testosterone is bad for humans that are mammals but on the other hand always good for dogs/cats which are mammals also. Mammals have similar body organs and structures that is why they are grouped together. 

Just stick to the fact it is to control pet populations and not for the health of the dog/cat. 

Oh and yes for my dog he might get neutered but that is the last step and that was the last step the vet recommended. Not the first and many vets will say neuter for $$$ , the one I went to doesn't do surgeries so there is not $$$ incentive to pursued me to neutering. 

Again it was the last step for treatment of his fear based aggression. 

So my recommendation is really take them to animal behaviourist and figure out what is going on first before recommending really anything.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Actually, no, it sounds like you have very strong anti-neutering feelings.

In fact, you have no idea about this person's lifestyle, or if they are even able keep their dog contained properly to avoid "mishaps" (no offense to the OP, we really do not know), yet you come here strongly anti-neuter despite the fact there's still thousands of dogs dying across the nation daily, and despite the fact millions of dogs live happy lives neutered.

And you bypassed intros just to come post here in this thread...

So strange :thinking:

Perhaps humans suffer ill effects because...we're different than other animals (like dogs) including the ability to reason, whereas dogs just live in the moment and don't miss what they do not have.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Just speaking from my experience.

Woolf is fear aggressive/DA/ sometimes HA. Had dogs all my life, never one such as this (what an eye opener). So like any good pet owner, sought out the advice of the vet and the trainer. The advice was have him neutered, will solve most the problem, training will take care of the rest.

The trainer is now our former trainer and we have been lucky enough to find a good behaviorist that has experience with GSD and other large working breeds and finally making real progress. And I've been in a crash course on management.

Just as a note; neutering did not solve the problems. Like one poster said.... it is irreversible once done.

Best thing I can say is find a good behaviorist, be sure they have experience with GSD and check them out. Be sure YOU are comfortable with them, they will be training YOU to work with your dog. 

Twyla


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Did it make his problems worse?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Did it make his problems worse?


Yes it did. He became more aggressive, which watching him in action you could see it was fear.. it was just _more_. Thankfully, we are past that now.

I've done the same in the past with friends who had issues with dogs, telling them to get'em fixed it will solve the problem. It doesn't always solve the problem, lesson learned the hard way.

From my experience, I'll always first say now to locate a good behaviorist, pinpoint the problem .. is it really DA, HA or FA. In Woolf's case we had to go further and find out WHY the fear before we started making headway. It takes time, dog training and learning management skills. Altering isn't always the answer to aggression issues.

I will add, that I am not against spaying and neutering, just that it isn't the answer always for behavioral problems.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

While I agree it's not necessarily "the answer", I do honestly see it help in more cases than not, but then again we do not take HA dogs into our rescue. We do see dog-dog aggression wane but we try not to take over-the-top aggressive dogs either. Those that nothing would really help short of a dedicated owner and lots of training/desensitization for reactivity. 

Again, it takes up to 3mos. for the testosterone to wane completely so you may not see a difference right away.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

We had waited well over the 3 month time period. 

In rescues, I can honestly understand reaching for the altering solution first. You definitely take care of one issue, less puppies to possibly be given up down the road and maybe handle or begin to handle the problem of aggression therefore hopefully making a dog more easier to rehome.

But for the pet owner, I don't see it as the first tool to reach for. It may or may not make the issue better or at least on the road to being better. If it doesn't, what happens to the dog? If like in Woolf's case, after having been neutered, in our search for the behaviorist we go to now, we spoke with several and after observing him recommended he be pts. With some owners, I imagine that is what would have happened.

If after taking these steps and it is discovered to be hormonal, by all means consider neutering and get the needed training for the dog and the human. It just shouldn't be the first step.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But you also saw a poor trainer which could have exacerbated his behavioral issues in the meantime. Or did you work w/the trainer at all?

I'd still recommend neuter for the average pet owner. Maybe not an _experienced_ one but this is the key - we don't know these folks are experienced and in fact oftentimes they are not. If it's a first time dog owner struggling with issues, why not get that out of the way, and of course, meanwhile, find a _great_ trainer - not a horrid one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Going back to the original post --- 


I'm trying to avoid spending a ton on obedience classes if there are some basic training techniques I can do to make him better at this.* ***Then getting him altered is a good first step. *


Will getting him neutered help this in general some of the male dog issues only?****Yes, quite possibly this will work, since he's okay with "most females" and reacts to intact males. *

My vet said the main benefit is that he will not want to take off when he sees females as much will it make him like males more?****This is up in the air. Yes he won't be inclined to wander. But as for him liking HUMAN males, it is unknown and/or unlikely neuter will help. *

I have a few friends that he doesn't see that often and he wants to run at them then bark very aggressively and I am afraid he is going to bite someone ****This is more likely fear issues (he's unsure of himself and what he's supposed to do) and unlikely to be affected by neuter. *

When I take him out in public in some places hes fine with most people but I take him out on the ice ice fishing and he hates every guy that walks up to him****This could be a health issue more than behavioral even. OR he feels insecure on the ice and is reacting to that. That won't be helped by neuter. 
*
He is fine with most of the neighborhood dogs if one roams over when hes tied up outside but inside my basement apt he gets more aggressive hes less aggressive upstairs****This is probably happening because a tied dog is vulnerable and they know it.***That said, for pure population control (when he's tied and/or not in your care) neutering is a good idea.*

but I take him out on the ice ice fishing with me and he is aggressive towards a male god both a small puppy at first and another random dog that walked over.****Something about the ice is also making him feel vulnerable and out of control. I don't know why but if it's that bad, I'd refrain from taking him on the ice if possible until you are able to get it figured out. *


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

*Bias yes*

I am anti-neuter . 

My first dog Max, an Aussie . We did everything together , walks, runs , bike rides as a kid. 

Max was older 8+ and on the advice of the vet my mom had him neuter because it would help. 

Max was dead a few months later suffering kidney failure. 

The image is still burned in my head of calling Max. Max come here , and him struggling to hear and focus in coming to me. Max falling over has he struggled to get to me. I took my first dog for his last trip to the vet that day and it is still is burned in my mind of him struggling. 

Did the neutering cause it? I don't know , maybe a contributing factor , but it was an un-needed surgery that might, might have contributed to Max's death. 

I hope people understand , surgery should be last step in any treatment plan. Surgery in humans is always left as the last step in any treatment plan because the risk of complications.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Hi Ben. 
I'm sorry about your experience as a youngster. That's definitely going to leave an impression.

I'm not sure when it was, but bloodwork is recommended these days and in fact most vets insist on it before doing any surgery on any dog over 7yrs. of age to make sure their kidneys and liver can tolerate the anesthesia.

There are many issues to consider when choosing to alter a pet but it's actually a relatively safe procedure and even safer in males whereas females have a large(r) incision. 

Recommending total strangers _not_ alter their pets based on an experience you had when you were young is really not responsible since you don't know if the person is able to keep their dog from reproducing. 

In rescue we've had a number of intact older males come in (over 7yrs), and even more older females, and tolerated surgery just fine, either alter, or dental procedures. 
However, we did bloodwork to determine if they'd be able to have surgery and in a few cases they were unable to due to illness. That meant they could not be adopted out, sadly enough, because senior pets are capable of reproduction. 

Also, perhaps interestingly, most the intact seniorpets we've had come in had sex-hormone related diseases such as perianal adenomas (in males) and (in females) breast cancers. 
Of course older pets in general are going to be more prone to cancers.


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

For the majority of people that cannot control their pets. Nuetering /spaying it is the way to go to prevent unwanted puppies being killed. I am for it.

But I am helicopter dad around my dogs as my wife says


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The more I read your opening post, the more I feel like this dog is pretty normal for the breed. There are too many areas and places where you say he's not problematic for me to come to this conclusion. Gets along with most dogs but will have problems with some males?? Nothing abnormal about that for a German Shepherd. Doesn't like to be crated....that could have been created long before you got the dog....many inexperienced owners misuse the crate initially and actually create the dog wanting to whine and get out by giving in to this early in the game and the dog believes if he keeps it up long enough and hard enough he will get results. I'm not saying the dog is perfect by any means, but I don't hear any abnormal behavoirs, or even behavoirs that are more created than genetic. And if the behavoirs are created by his initial upbringing, then training can change quite a bit of this. JMO
Also, a think the dog is being given a lot of mixed signals but different people in his life....heck just going out on the ice with you for ice fishing tells me some positives about the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

benbennett said:


> For the majority of people that cannot control their pets. Nuetering /spaying it is the way to go to prevent unwanted puppies being killed. I am for it.
> 
> But I am helicopter dad around my dogs as my wife says


I completely understand. 
Please understand also that (as you even said) the majority of people who own dogs don't want to deal with the above average care it takes to keep their pets from reproducing, I know this because we see it on the "intake" end, that is, most pets surrendered or who people want to surrender that is, are intact, but also most pets we pull from the shelter whose time is up, are intact. 

Heck we just got in a very handsome purebred Pug who'd been adopted out of the shelter on a contract to neuter (it's included in the fee) and however many months went by this dog was picked up as a stray, the chip is there so, yep, same dog, and he's still intact. The shelter themselves neutered him, so we had to reimburse them for their costs for the surgery 
Who knows how many litters he's sired between the time he was adopted _on a contract_, and picked up as a stray 

We see this also on the "out go" end when people adopt, they want a nice, well-behaved pet without marking tendencies (a problem in many male dogs) and without a lot of other "issues" that come with intact pets. I know it's antithesis to pet ownership but people really just want things neat, tidy and above all _easy_.


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## benbennett (Feb 14, 2012)

*Alternative to neutering , Suprelorin (deslorelin)*

Suprelorin (deslorelin) is a small implant that is inserted in the skin on the back of the neck. Similar to a micro chip implant, same way to insert it. 

Clinically it is effective as castration but isn't permanent. 6 month and 12 month doses. 

Only problem it isn't distributed in the US, but a vet can get on a special list to get the implant. Suprelorin is made by an Australian company called Pettech. 

Works in other animals also. 
Trail data. Suppresses testosterone and sperm production. Almost zeros out both. 
More links
PEPTECH Animal Health - Suprelorin Trial Data 

Suprelorin (deslorelin) :: Saint Louis Zoo

https://www.google.com/search?q=Suprelorin+gov

Trying to track down a vet that is already on the list , probably have to go to a university. 

Suprelorin will be cheaper than neutering too and I will be able to see if it is contributing to his behaviour problems. If so I will neuter him after 12 month dose is up. 

Oh here is video of Mozart. He is at 1 year now not a bad dog. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiYphokzP8E

Thanks for the thread, lead me to find an alternative to test a non permanent to neutering to see if it is causing or contributing to his issues.


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