# Pohranicni Straze?



## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I've heard these lines mentioned a few times in a few different places both online and off. Out of curiosity what are people's opinions on the lines for the most part?

My pup Odin has a Straze dog in his lines (great-great grandfather) and as far as working goes seemed to be a pretty decent dog.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/392859.html


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

The Pohranicini straze was a government-controlled kennel before the wall came down and the Czech Republic and the Slovic (sp) Republic were one and the same. (aka the Communist government)
Many of the Czech dogs still have that breeding in their background. 

Unfortunately, it is in my belief (and I think others on this board) that the PS "lines" have pretty much dwindled out of existence (as far as talking "old school.") There are many people who tag "PS" onto their dogs' names even though they may not be true "PS" dogs. 

I am sure some working breeders will respond.


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## Taylor (Apr 7, 2009)

My friend malinda (a working line breeder) has one of these dogs. Her call name is Khya. Shes a wonderful girl. I believe she is the only one she has. Here is her pedigree

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/483011.html


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Grimm has PS up close on both sides. These dogs are not cookie-cutter in looks or temperament. They oftentimes are not "biting right out of the box" like West German workingline dogs may be. The range for drives can be from high to medium. These tend to be strong dogs with strong minds. They range from somewhat sharp to socially open. When breeders warn you that these dogs mature late, they aren't just talking about drives on the training field-- the dog can remain rather immature until they get their "adult brains" at age 3.5 years. Some of these dogs are small and wiry, others are built like tanks with enormous bone. The only things I can think of that are really consistant are the slow maturing of many, and that these dogs can tend to have dominant characters.

Grimm himself is friendly, socially open, medium drive, medium energy level, very immature at 2, oversized, somewhat dominant, and LOVES to work with and for his handler. He is also able to settle in the home with appropriate excersise.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: TaylorInKSMy friend malinda (a working line breeder) has one of these dogs. Her call name is Khya. Shes a wonderful girl. I believe she is the only one she has. Here is her pedigree
> 
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/483011.html


Pohranicni Straze was a government run kennel....to produce border patrol dogs. Think seriously what the dog was produced to do. Walk a portion of border for 8 hours per day, vigilent the whole time, and with aggression to apprehend anyone sneaking over the border. Think about the character of the dog who must live his working life doing that activity. there are some terrific z PS dogs and some of the best are in pedigrees in dogs with DDR and WG combinations here.

As far as dogs with this kennel name in the US - there have been some very poor producing (health and hips) females show up in very commercial situations. I know of two here in W PA who were in such kennels, and have seen quite a few pups from those females. Unfortunately, there are alot of dogs who sport this kennel name who were not bred by the Czech Border Patrol Kennel.

The dog you list here is NOT from the z PS kennel. It was bred here (30 miles or so from me) by a woman who showed up at a schutzhund club 2 or 3 times who had about 20 GSD and wanted to get into European dogs...she is now out of GSDs. I know that many many of the pups produced by this male and both female z PS dogs she used had bad hips and other health problems (not only in this combination) - the littermate Jika is owned by an acquaintance of mine, she has severe HD - her half brother had several problems and was put down. Many of the others have shown up at various AKC classes in the area, and quite a few were sold to cops since she sold pups relatively inexpensively. 

Lee


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I guess my second question then would be if there's a way to tell if Agar was actually from this kennel or not. I'm unfamiliar with the SG title and some of his other titles i'm not too sure on: ZM, ZVV1, AD, CS Kkl 1


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Agar was imported by and used for breeding in Ohio at Westwood Kennel - yes, he is legitimately a z PS bred dog...have heard he was a very good producer.

Lee


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## salinasam (Jun 25, 2008)

Can you say anything for this dog???? This was a really interesting post for me as I am trying to find out more about the dogs in my dogs line. It really interests me.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/429582.html


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Thanks for the info.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The father of my female Tora is Tom z PS.


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

I have a male also who is PS his father is a police k9 here in US his grandfather is Titus PS. His pedigree is all PS 90% +

his pedigree is
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/565453.html


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

does anyone else have this line here?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Masi 's grandfather on dam's side is Galant. Her 'mom' was imported from slovakia and 'dad' is ddr/czech. 

She is definately alot like Patti describes in previous post, altho she really isn't openly social, very aloof with most, always 'watching', and her batteries very rarely die out )..She's a strong dog, willing to try anything, but definately hasnt matured out yet, (only 14mths), smart as a whip, I could go on and on,,she's a wonderful girl, can't wait to see how she'll mature out. )

Her ped
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/551900.html


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Thats cute they are very smart my boy is aloof too he isnt open to everyone he likes females more than men too. Hes kinda reserved to my husband. Guess hes a mommas boy lol. Had to add I love her sabling shes gorgeous!!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have a Grim z PS grandson. He has filled out a lot since the picture

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/460211.html


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Wow he is pretty too Im a sucker for the dark sables...


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

I've got Grim on dad's side, and Titus and Biba on mom's. Although my pup is only a week shy of 5 months, he's got attitude! I've not yet seen him in a situation when he wasn't going forward to meet it. 

He's a natural tracker, and never runs out of gas. The director of our Schutzhund club told me that once in their life, everyone should have a dog that's a natural, so so far, so good. 

He's also very good with people, was very easy to socialize, and seems to really be a balanced dog. He's food and ball crazy too!


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2000)

One of the earlier posters hit the nail on the head as far as giving a description of the Grim lines. My experience has also been that they mature very slowly, and do love to work. If you are lucky enough to have good people to work with, and they help you from being too overly anxious to push training, I would think your quite lucky. Because the dogs enjoy the training, folks tend to forget foundation work, or just skim over some things that will create problems later.

I had a Grim, daughter, Gita z Lipin, that was a great dog for the sport. Excellent tracker, and great in the protection work as well. I made a HUGE mistake using pressure while trying to improve my obedience scores, and turned a SG scoring dog into just a good dog from a scoring standpoint.

I now have 2 Grim grandsons, both are a little different, but do have some common things as well. Both dogs live for work, are solidly built, and very dark in color. Both dogs are very social, are excellent trackers, can be solid obedience dogs, maybe a bit more on the serious side as far as the protection work goes. For me they are well balanced, but I do know people that they would be a bit much for. Armor is more defensive, but that comes from his father. Hex is a great dog to be around, and has really picked up tracking as well as any dog I have ever had. Neither is dog aggressive, they are both clean dogs, and enjoy the water. Hex is a Xac PS x Chayma PS son. He produces dogs similar in structure and temperament.

I am really taking my time with Armor. He is 4 and just is really starting to get serious with his work. Hex is 5 and I am having a blast with him I didn't get him as a pup, like the others I mentioned, and I do believe there are imprinting issues I will never be able to correct

Al Govednik


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

I really like the male I have too he has some issue that were from a previous owner that I can hopefully correct but he will get his SCH1 but will be alot of work to go past the 1. But I love the way he is all around and will be looking for another to add I love the Czech lines.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Great info on maturity, Al. I appreciate hearing that because I've been so excited about my pup's progress I had plans all drawn up to be doing BH at 15 mos and Sch1 at 18 mos. It sounds like I should let him set the pace!

Our club has an excellent training director and president, and I'm very confident they will help me go at the right pace.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2000)

Hi Fred,

You need to be careful in the beginning if you want a nice dog in the end. I see people hurry all the time, and I made the mistake myself, so I'm speaking from experience as well. It seems once a person gets "hooked" on the sport, they want to continue to go on to more challanging/advanced things. 

With some of these Czech line dogs, people will make some mistakes in protection for example thinking they can handle pressure/stress because they will grip hard if pushed a little. In reality by going too fast a person can create problems with grips and other things that will be hard to fix later, if at all.

I referenced Armor earlier. This last winter I finally started to see him wanting to dominate the helper. So in my training program, I started to work to keep him cleaner, and worked with a little more pressure since I feel as if he's actually maturing, as opposed to just being a happy, drivey dog doing protection. So I just waited for nature to take it's course.

That part sucked, being patient that is. For me though I found I could work with Hex, while I was waiting for Armor, so I am lucky to have kind of the best of both worlds. Having a dog to work with while waiting for the next up and comer has been very fun.

In reference to Hex, there were things done at a young age by the first owner, that I really feel caused a lot of problems that eventually caused this fellow to give up on him. A blessing for me, but I'm sure this fellow had a real hard time dealing with Hex, both physically and mentally.

Any more I just tell folks to be patient and careful. It's much easier to work slowly than to have to redo something.

Al Govednik


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, Al. I pm'ed you with a question.


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

It would be nice to have 2. you got lucky there thats why i want another one so I am now on the search for another czech GSD would like a 6month- 1yr old so I can do some of the starting training on him/her.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Try eurosport. They are breeding from that line. Www. Eurosport.com


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Ok thanks I will check it out


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

that site is human sports. lol..


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## bosco146 (Jan 30, 2004)

Bear's dam side is full of PS dogs. I think thats where he gets his stamina and drive from.


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Hes a pretty boy too I was just looking at her site today.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Eurosport is actually http://www.eurosportk9.com


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Ok thanks im off to look there thanks!!


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

Sorry about that. I forgot to mention K9 in the address. Glad you found it.


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Thats ok they have some nice dogs there! Im looking around think I found a female already.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1The father of my female Tora is Tom z PS.


Would this be him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow1dHLcwH48&feature=related


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That's him!! He was 11 and a half years old when he sired Tora, naturally. This is the kind of health screening I look for....the type that mother natures provides that designates strong genetic material. That is ole school breeding mentality as opposed to looking for the dog with all the health certs. I figure if you can still produce naturally at eleven years I want those type genes in my dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That's him!! He was 11 and 1/2 years old when he produced Tora naturally. Litter of nine!! This is the kind of health Certs I use for evaluating aspects of the blood I want to introduce to my dogs. I figure if you can produce naturally at this age, then your health, longevity, and physical/mental strength is what I am looking for. This was very important to breeders of the past before everybody used clinical testing to evaluate dogs. I still prefer this method! My other female is also out of a stud that produced her at 10 and 1/2 years old.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Getting a dog from these lines was a surprising experience for me. When baby Grimm waddled out of the carrier at the airport, he was already "talking" to me with his energy, his feelings. You could, I swear, almost HEAR him saying "Hi! Where is this? Where's my Momma and puppy-siblings nest? Who are you? I LOVE you! You gonna pet me now??" etc. These guys really talk with their feelings so that you can feel it. it's hard to explain.

The next thing I didn't expect was fearlessness with walking over all surfaces, walking right up to a roaring snowplow, etc. The idea that a puppy imagines himself to be The King of All Things was a shock to me.

I learned that drive is a good thing. I learned it can mean not that a dog is too hyper, it can mean that a dog wants to work WITH you. That training would be easier, that the dog would be always looking for the next training game. I felt less alone, like in training, he wanted it as much as I did.

I learned that these are strong dogs, and that I am not strong. I have made changes in myself to better handle Grimm.

I appreciate what these lines have to offer.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

I second that Patti,

I have also learned that there is a quietness, confidence that go along with figuring things out. It's like someone carrying a big stick, not saying a word, and taking care of business. 

Even with all the drive, there is still a calmness as well, it's really weird. 

I don't think fear is in the definition of these Czechs either. If I put a Abrams tank in front of Loki, he would challenge it to a dual









I see the immaturity in him, and like you said, it will last for awhile. 

When Loki plays tug, wrestling with Jasper, etc, he plays to totally destroy what he is dealing with. There is no losing attitude, or ease to what he does, it's 1000% drive. 

When I am on a walk, or if Loki meets someone, honestly he could care less. He is very very friendly, however he is like, "OK", were is the ball or tug. He only cares about his pack (humans, Jasper and Macy and the cats. 

He also likes to bearhug whatever he is playing with. Loves to cuddle with the cats, he totally thinks there his.

The only thing I was curious with is his size. He is around 70lbs, he is only around 23 inches at the shoulders, and hasn't seem to hit a growth spurt for height. I know the Czech line matures later, but does that include height. I asked the breeder of his parents size, they are both 25 inches at shoulders. Whatever size he becomes, he is pure sledghammer in whatever he does. He will be 9 months on the 20th, hope there is one more height growth.

Thanks to you Patti, I have Loki


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jack and Patti what you are expressing is the true beauty of a German Shepherd!! Many many socalled experts don't realize what a true German Shepherd should be. Patti, you definition provides the embodiment of the breed. I have found that a higher percentage of the Czech dogs seem to reflect this type dog more consistently, that the standard describes. Not these nerve bags that people have excuses for their temperament, or these prey monsters that have more drive than brains, or these beauty "QUEENS", that can only functionally run around a ring and live out a crate. But an honest to goodness dog that can do things like Rin Tin Tin or Lassie.(I know Lassie was a Collie, but her exploits represent many traits of GS, plus they are both herding dogs).
Not saying Czech dogs don't have faults as do all the subset, but I see a very high percent of them as Family dogs and sport dogs, AND true working dogs.....and isn't this what the breed represents. Not saying that the type of dogs I mentioned are bad, just saying if you own these types I don't think breeding them helps maintain the integrity of the breed.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We had to search 4 abandoned buildings during a cadaver search yesterday and it is so nice having a dog that has no fear and WANTs to do this. He thrives on the unusual, on things falling out from under him, on strange odors, on darkness. Nothing fazes him. Though I did have some words with him when he demanded to go into a building with a padlock and then check it out, nothing there - he just had to get in and check it out - I think he just had to figure out the musty odors.

Ignores deer running around in front of him. Sniff dead beaver [thats nice] and moves on. This was his first exposure to dead beaver, we have proofed on a lot of other dead animals.

And then afterwards he meets strange people lolling around a group home and they walk differently, act differently and he could give a rats







.

He worked his heart out for 3 hours on a warm day, and all he asked for was an ocassional chance to lay down in a stream.

We go back to a teammates house for a meeting and he can safely hang out in the fenced back yard with all of her dogs.

I KNOW my next dog has to be another dog like this [Czech, at least], possibly through Eurosport because I have seen some now and am impressed - several FEMA dogs. I did not get Grim there but.know they have similar lines and great rep.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Jasper007The only thing I was curious with is his size. He is around 70lbs, he is only around 23 inches at the shoulders, and hasn't seem to hit a growth spurt for height. I know the Czech line matures later, but does that include height. I asked the breeder of his parents size, they are both 25 inches at shoulders. Whatever size he becomes, he is pure sledghammer in whatever he does. He will be 9 months on the 20th, hope there is one more height growth.


My dog, Grim is all of 23 inches at the shoulders and 72 pounds at 6 years. He is a perfect working size for me! Very agile and fit. Very muscular. Would not want bigger for real work, He can crawl on his belly [under crawlspaces] and walk on his hind legs [figuring out a hanging scent problem], AND can fit in a 36 inch crate! [logistics of throwing your dog in other peoples vehicles on searches]


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Though probably not as close in the pedigree as Loki - Dante's got Pohranicni Straze on his Sire's side (along with Alk) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6/427011.html
He probably grew 2 inches between Loki's age and 3 years to mature out at just a hair over 26"


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Clifftonanderson, thanks for your input! I really appreciate what you have to say. I myself don't do sport, my dog is in training to do handicapped-assistance/seizure response work for me. When the vest gpes on, I swear, he is a different dog. All the crazy and silly goes away, and he becomes serious, calm, smug, self-important, and focused on the task at hand. 

But, I would admit that Grimm is more dog than i anticipated. He is mainly very young, and my first young dog-- all my dogs have been middle aged when I got them. so.. I am learning.

Jack, Loki may grow still in height. I am delighted that you feel I had some influence in nudging you towards getting your smart, gorgeous, strong, wonderful Loki.







He is a great dog! I think they say growth plates close by 12 - 14 months, but, we have all known dogs who grow in height a bit even after that. Truth: My last dog was 25.5 inches at the shoulder. EVERYONE thought he was enormous-- because of his quiet, calm personality that exuded a real presense. Grimm is 27 inches, and nobody notices him. Not ever. If Grimm jumps on a guest (bad owner! need training support for sure) they brush him off without even a glance. I'm saying "huge" is all about character. Grimm is silly-goofy, gets overlooked no mater how large he is. Loki no matter what, will seem like a "big" dog.







I also think he may get a lil more height to him. I'd wait to determine his final height until he's over 2 years.

Nancy, by the way, I deliberately selected a large Czech dog because Grimm will be doing mobility assist/balance-and-brace work for me. Tall dogs are good for this job.









Barb, I gotta say I love Dante's pic in your avatar!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Patti - your Grimm may be tall, but he still appears to have that solid, strong Czech build.

Much to my dismay, I have seen some recently at a seminar, that were Czech [maybe had they only had Czech in them or maybe people said that because they were dark sables] that were tall, skinny and lanky - kind of like byb american dogs can be. Not impressive in nerve either. Of course some of the first Czech dogs that came over to the states WERE like that. 

My male is also incredibly loving to me and my family and pretty much ignores anyone else. And very goofy except for when he is working. [Though he really cannot resist the opportunity to climb on things like a billy goat]


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Many of the old Czech lines were sharp, the lanky build, small heads, and much finer bone. These were the lines before the influx of the East German blood. Now this is a generalization but nonetheless typical. The current type has evolved from the popularity of the big heads, bone, color pattern, and much more mellow temperament. Still, as a Czech breeder from inside the Pohraninci -straze kennel told me about 5 years ago, this type needs some new blood infused (West working, Belgium, Holland working) or they will go the same route as the ASL or the West German showline. It seems all the Czech dogs of past 15 years go back to Grim, Titus, Norbo, and Tom. The fear is that the genepool is getting too narrow as people demand that "Czech" look at the expense of health and temperament which always suffers when the genepool constricts too much. That is why my newest import puppy is West workinglines.


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## CWhite (Dec 8, 2004)

I believe this gentleman used to be involved with the Pohranicni Straze. The Leerburg web board has various discussions on this topic. 


http://www.jinopo.cz/general.php?lg=en


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

My boy is 25 1/2" inches and 85lbs I love his temperament hes aggressive when need be but a big softy at home and with kids .. I would love to own another one of these lines Im hooked.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Nancy J
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Jasper007The only thing I was curious with is his size. He is around 70lbs, he is only around 23 inches at the shoulders, and hasn't seem to hit a growth spurt for height. I know the Czech line matures later, but does that include height. I asked the breeder of his parents size, they are both 25 inches at shoulders. Whatever size he becomes, he is pure sledghammer in whatever he does. He will be 9 months on the 20th, hope there is one more height growth.
> ...


Nancy,

Post like yours always bring me back to earth about his size. 

It's really amazing to watch him run the fields, climb, tug, etc. He is like a cat, and everything you describe in your Grim. I guess in a way I should feel so lucky









I probably shouldn't compare him too much with Jasper, way oversized German showline (30 inches), elbow dysplasia and not very agile (he tries









LOL, when Jasper and Loki scrap it out, Loki has a clear advantage with Jaspers belly









Loki can go all day like you had mentioned, with a good turn off switch when asked of him.

He also likes to climb up jungle gyms at the park (ladders and slides), the children get so jealous.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Czech late maturity..?

Grimm is 2.5 years old. His chest has dropped, but he hasn't truly "filled out" yet. I have heard this can be a long wait, and especially long for these lines. I think in about a year, he may be filled out? 

Heavy legs bones and a broad muzzle and head, though. I believe his head will widen more too, as he matures.

The only negative I see with my own dog is extreme impatience/impulsiveness, easily excited, lack of self-control. I wanted a calm dog. He does settle beautifully in the house, though, no pacing, and lower excersise needs than many workinglines dogs. I am hoping maturity MIGHT help make an improvement on the impulsive/impatient/anticipation thing. When he wants something (play with another dog, for example) gets too intense.







I am really hoping maturity helps with that. We do NILIF, waiting with sit and focus before each meal, through all doorways, etc etc. PLEASE let late-blooming Czech maturity help!









Note: i have actually never had a puppy or young dog before. All my other dogs came to me middle-aged.


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## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

I dont think my boy is done either filling out he is big boned wide muzzled and big headed like you guys explain. Hes my first Czech too my first GSD was american lines and I did not like how she was.. I got this boy and I love him he knows when to turn off hes calm in the house he plays with my dobermans and rough houses then he turns off and lays down. I couldnt ask for a better one all mine I have gotten older too but I getting my feet wet and getting a pup soon see how it turns out Im ready for it.. If I find an older one I will take her if not its a pup. I think by the time my boy is filled out he'll be the 90lb mark I havent weighed him in a while but will do so soon.


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## Stahl (Nov 2, 2018)

Brightelf said:


> Grimm has PS up close on both sides. These dogs are not cookie-cutter in looks or temperament. They oftentimes are not "biting right out of the box" like West German workingline dogs may be. The range for drives can be from high to medium. These tend to be strong dogs with strong minds. They range from somewhat sharp to socially open. When breeders warn you that these dogs mature late, they aren't just talking about drives on the training field-- the dog can remain rather immature until they get their "adult brains" at age 3.5 years. Some of these dogs are small and wiry, others are built like tanks with enormous bone. The only things I can think of that are really consistant are the slow maturing of many, and that these dogs can tend to have dominant characters.
> 
> Grimm himself is friendly, socially open, medium drive, medium energy level, very immature at 2, oversized, somewhat dominant, and LOVES to work with and for his handler. He is also able to settle in the home with appropriate excersise.


My boy was line bred on Grim z pohranicni. He's awesome


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## Stahl (Nov 2, 2018)

NancyJ said:


> I have a Grim z PS grandson. He has filled out a lot since the picture
> 
> Grim van der Woude


My boys line bred on Grim z pohranicni straze he's 2 and has fulled out lovely


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