# BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Chief



## MustLoveGSDs

Trying to keep my composure here, I cannot believe what just happened..


My boyfriend came home from work about 30 minutes ago. Chief was on the floor and just woke up from sleeping because Todd called him to take him outside. Chief refused and hopped up in bed and curled up behind me as he sometimes does. Normally Todd will say 'Let's go Chief!" again and he will follow him to the door. Well this time Todd reached for his collar to pull him down, not in a mean or rude way or anything, and Chief lunged at him aggressively and bit his face. Todd has a big gash in his cheek and across the bottom of his chin. He straight up with no warning lunged and put gashes in his face!! He just left for the minor emergency clinic to get it cleaned up, it is nasty and he said very painful. Omg I didn't even know what to say or do, I am completely shocked and I feel absolutely horrible. There was so much blood on his face and on the bathroom sink and floor. Now Chief is super attached to me but he has never shown any aggression to Todd. He has started to bond with him really well and would often cuddle with him in the bed and on the couch, something he would never do even with me in the beginning. I cannot believe he did this to Todd. I do not and cannot have this happen again. I love my dog to death but now I don't doubt he would act this way towards ANYone to "protect" me. This deeply concerns since it has hit close to home. I know this is Todd's fault since he is the one that went to move Chief but IMO this should NEVER happen, Chief should not act that way towards him. I am so thankful he did not get his eye. I mean I am just at a loss, this has never happened before? What do I do? Does Chief need to be re-homed, can he be trusted to a new home unless it was a single person? He apparently bonds to one person. He obviously has a pretty serious bite history now and that would be a big liability to put him up for adoption. I am really scared and worried. Todd totally kept his cool and didn't react to Chief but I could tell he was extremely upset, [censored], angry, etc. I am VERY upset about thinking of euthanasia and wonder if that is overreacting but tell me what should I do, I need some insight PLEASE. I know Todd is going to have a very different view of Chief now, and i dont blame him, but now I worry that he will direct his frustrations and anger onto me because of what my dog did and I don't want it to break our relationship apart, we are planning on purchasing a home together in May, he's not just a guy I could easily say goodbye to. 

OMG


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## MaggieRoseLee

How shocking, must have been so horrible to go thru. 

Good news is it sounds like generally you dog's temperament is good, so you can fix this. 

Bad news is, it means changing how you manage your dog and I bet you will have BIG troubles with this. You have to change Chief's world and where he thinks his position is in it. Because YOU aren't the Queen in the House. Clearly your boyfriend isn't even a beloved servant.

CHIEF IS KING! He sleeps in the King bed, allows you to share (lucky you) and your boyfriend...................not so much.

No more sleeping on the bed or on the furniture with you for at least the next YEAR or so (not few days, YEAR). It's not his bed to guard (bad news for you, he wasn't being protective of YOU, you weren't in any danger from the boyfriend, he was guarding THE BED).

Easiest thing is to change up bedtime. Hoping he's crate trained cause that always our best management tool. Keep the crate in the bedroom, have a new bedtime routine that is 'treat in crate, dog in crate, close crate door' and EVERYONE goes to sleep.

How many miles of exercise is your dog getting a week. OFF leash and real exercise?

How many dog class sessions have you attended? THis isn't about getting the perfect 'sit'. It's about giving we humans the skills to learn to be the LEADER in our dogs lives so they look to us, get guidance from us, and LISTEN to us. Not just react and bite cause they are comfy and don't want to move when asked to.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YELLING AND CORRECTIONS AND BEING ALPHA!!!!

I have to repeat that again. For a dog that has learned to up to aggression to get it's own way (and has learned that works) coming down like a load of bricks will NOT teach the smart and consistant LEADERSHIP role we need to have in our dogs lives. A good leader is followed because of respect NOT fear.

Here's some sites to read up on:

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/aggression_main.html

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/1dbaggression.php

This is a good article explaining why the old macho myth of 'Alpha' with our dogs is outdated:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm

Exercise, training, managing the home, rules rules rules and boundaries!!!


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## Dainerra

yeah, what she said








and don't be surprised when he rebels like crazy when you start sitting down the new rules! He's the king of the roost and he won't appreciate a coup


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## Kayos and Havoc

Slow down.... take a deep bretah and let it out again.....

Can understand you being upset and you are right this should not have happened. ANd I have to disagree with you on this - How is Todd at fault? He gave the dog a command, the dog did not heed it, he repeated himself and then went to enforce it. Unless Chief has a loose screw this is fixable. This sounds like a brat teen that did not want to leave his throne.

I would cease allowing Chief in the bed. Provide him a bed of his own next to your bed. Every time he tries to get on the bed or gets on the bed, firmly remind him "off". You can either toss a treat on the floor to lure and reward him getting off or keep a leash on him that you can pick up to guide him off. Do not get into a confrontation that just winds him up and encourages him to protect his space, you will lose. And BTW it ain't his space. Every inch of your home is your space.

I would start learn to earn or NILIF if you are not already. He works for every bit of attention he gets from you and Todd.

Join an obedience class and start going and working at home with him.

Todd needs to hand feed him his meals as well. 

I hope Todd is okay and heals quickly. By going to urgent care he has now reported a dog bite. I hope this does not label Chief or put him on the radar as a potential aggressive dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Deep breaths. 

I think in hindsight you can see that Chief was set up to fail. Most of us do not do this knowingly! We do it and then we go OH CRAP! Should he have reacted that way? No, absolutely not, but we don't know the reason for it. 

That is what I try to assess with a dog who has bitten. What is the cause? Are they predictable? If they are predictable, are their triggers known and can they be either removed or dealt with in a safe way? 

I am not going to make excuses for Chief but I think you can get through this. You can see a vet to assess pain or any physical issues. You can see a good behaviorist, I bet there are some through the rescue who are trusted and good. Then you can all get into some good, positive based training. You can do NILIF. You can make sure Chief is not on the furniture without your say so. Chief loses a lot of privileges here but can gain some back. 

He may be a dog who has to have things in terms of leadership black and white. Not cold and hard, just clear. He may not be a cuddle buddy because that may confuse him. He cannot assume a person is mine, but that is up to you to make clear to him. 

He is a German Shepherd. They are wonderfully obedient and intelligent companions. With that comes the idea that we have to be thinkers as well. 

I believe once you think this all through you will see that Chief is relying on you to be the people you need to be to have a happy GSD, and that you can do that. 

So-
1. Vet, assess pain
2. Behaviorist
3. Training classes for all 3 of you
4. NILIF on-going (Ilsa has been on NILIF for 4.5 years now!)
5. No furniture privileges

Sometimes when dogs do things, they do them because they think that they are allowed to. We would never imagine allowing that, but they think differently than we do. 

I am very hopeful that once Chief and you all come to a clear and positive understanding of your relationships together you will be able to put this experience in perspective. Right now, awful and scary, eventually, a learning time.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Maggie,

Honestly I understand the possessive/resource guarding thing but I do not think he was guarding the bed and here is one situation involving my brother's friend that tells me why. I take Chief to my parents house every now and then with me to visit. At times I have left him there to go get some food or go out. One of my brother's friends comes over a lot and has always gotten along famously with Chief and would play with him when I was out. One day I was at their house sitting at the computer and Chief was lying down on the floor not too far from me just relaxing. My brother's friend walked in the house and Chief immediately jumped up and ran barking aggressively up to him and stopped right at his pants, but didn't bite. He just stood there barking in his face. Chief had to be crated anytime I was over there with him after that. He would never do that if I wasn't there. When I say this dog is attached to me, I mean he is attached to me. If he is out of my sight he freaks out and has to sniff every corner and search for me, he gets tunnel vision. I don't think Chief owns me in his eyes, I just think he is HIGHLY protective. I can look him in the eye and he will roll over, I do have control over him. I practice NILIF and all of that. Chief was bonded to his foster mom like he is with me, he glues himself to one person. I posted on here back in the summer when I moved in with my boyfriend on how to get Chief to listen to him and the tips and advice I got really helped, but Chief hasn't bonded to Todd like he has with me, or anyone else for that matter and I don't think he will as long as I'm his owner.

Chief isn't a high active or driven dog. He is an older rescue dog and he mostly just lays around. He is very quiet in the apartment and is never demanding. He is one of the calmest and laid-back dogs I know. A couple walks a day is all he needs, so I know this isn't an exercise issue. I have never attended formal obedience classes with him because he was already trained when I adopted him but I have worked obedience extensively with him when I first adopted him and over time. I used to take him to work with me and would do OB commands with him for a good 30-40 minutes every morning. He is not an out of control dog in the least bit and he listens to me very well.


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## onyx'girl

Agree with all the above and want to share my experience
Hawkeye was a foster I had last year at this time. Not sure of his age, but about 1 yr old. He was neutered a couple weeks before he came to me.
He formed a really strong bond with me, and would bark at my DH and son when they entered the house or when my son came downstairs. We tried to work on it with them throwing treats, etc. I did use NILIF with him. I had him for 9 weeks.
He was allowed in the bedroom, but not on the bed. One night I had just gone to bed, Hawke was on the floor next to me. DH came in and sat on the bed with his back to us, and Hawkeye jumped over the bed and nailed him in the back. Not provocation or warning. 
I had to send him back to the former foster the next morning. It was never resolved(he never was re-evaluated) he was adopted out 2 weeks later, everyone at the SPCA thought it was my fault and that he was resource guarding me.
Broke my heart( I really wanted to adopt him, but he didn't like the guys in my house) and I wonder how he is managing in his home that has a DH and 16 yr son. I wasn't able to have contact with the new adopters, either.

I hope Chief and your DH can find a good relationship again. 
I'm sure your DH will have some negative feelings for him after this has happened and it will be felt by Chief.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This is why it would be so important to have him seen by vet, behaviorist, trainer. 

We can't see him so it is hard for us to say what causes the behavior. 

I see the second instance as a potential startle response. 

Just because a dog is bonded to one person (I have Chow mixes so totally get that-they just don't act all gooby like a GSD when I am not around







) doesn't mean that the expectations in terms of behavior change. Not in bonding- I know they won't totally because they are one person dogs, but my general expectations are the same, they get it, and they act appropriately (or if they don't/can't/won't I work around it). 

Again, not discounting the OMG of this situation at all just saying having real life people looking at it in the next couple of weeks will help you tons.


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## DianaM

What a scary situation! I agree that this is a definite resource guard. I skimmed through the thread and saw that NILIF and lifestyle changes were recommended which I second/third/fourth.







I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but I would do the following AFTER meeting with a vet/qualified behaviorist:

1) Chief needs to be bumped down to "ensign" and lose ALL access privileges to the bedroom. His paws no longer set foot in the bedroom. Ever. Same with the couch. Any furniture is now completely off-limits. I know it was suggested to just keep him off the bed, but I say it sends a clearer message if there are whole, entire ROOMS of the house where you and Boyfriend have access but Chief and Zelda do not. Put up a baby gate so they can still see you, but they cannot enter. And yes, I think I would treat both dogs the same just to avoid pack dynamic upset amongst them.

2) Nobody touches Chief unless he sits or downs first! If he wants to be petted, make him sit first. If he wants to play, sit first. Wants to go inside or outside, sit first. Put on a leash, sit first. That's hardcore NILIF. 

3) Boyfriend should feed Chief's meals as training sessions. This is easier if you do kibble but can be done if you do raw. Basically, BF prepares Chief's meal, then instead of putting down the bowl, he has Chief do basic OB in exchange for small handfuls of food. About halfway through the meal BF can release Chief to the rest of the meal after a very nicely done OB command, but this REALLY helps drill the point down that "Thou shalt not eat without MY graces."

4) If Chief is lying down in the floor in the way (not in a corner or by a wall), make him move, especially BF. Chief no longer has any right to lay anywhere he wants and expect peace. If he is in his own bed or off to the side, that's perfectly fine but sprawled out in the middle of the room, no way. He can move his furry behind because the humans control the movements in the room.

5) What is Chief's favorite game? If he likes to tug, have BF play tug with Chief and work on teaching a solid release command and also downing in between tug sessions. This is fun, bonding, and VERY good obedience/control building. Same thing with fetch- Chief must release the ball on command and perform some obedience before the ball is thrown. 

6) Would your BF be willing to go through a basic obedience class with Chief? This can really help strengthen a bond and build a partnership.

Keep us posted. I







Chief so much and am very interesting in how things progress.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Thank you for all the responses so far, I am listening and will talk to Todd when he gets home. He's waiting for the Dr to give him stitches. Ugh. I am sick to my stomach over this.


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## Elaine

I am going to say what no one else here seems to be willing to say. Not only is this not Todd's fault, it's yours. This dog didn't just out of the blue leap up and bite Todd. and when he did, I see you didn't mention that you let the dog know what he did was wrong, which just reinforced to the dog that he was right.

He is resouce guarding and you are his resource. You have said how you repeatedly let him get away with inappropriate aggression with your brother's friend and I will bet that Chief has been showing increasing aggression to your boyfriend that you either didn't recognize as aggression or you did and just didn't do anything about it. As you said, he's your dog and you think he's being protective and up to now you probably liked it and unknowingly encouraged it.

I agree with the others that you need to change a lot of things with this dog, but you need to change what you are doing even more.


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## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I will be completely honest here. Elaine I was still pretty much asleep when this all happened. I did immediately make him get off the bed after the incident, I did not verbally correct him though as I was just taken completely off guard, dumbfounded, baffled, shellshocked, etc. By the time I took everything in it would have been too late to correct him. I followed Todd to the bathroom and stood there in silence next to him as he was bleeding in the sink. Chief walked up to him and lightly touched his nose to his hand where there was blood and had the look in his eyes like he knew he did something wrong. Todd left and Chief went into a corner and curled up. His crate is currently being occupied by our new foster dog who I can't leave to just run around freely and to his own devices just yet.

I haven't repeatedly let him get away with aggression to the friend. I stated that when I was not at the house, Chief and my brother's friend played and got along great. It was that one time I happened to be at the house with chief when the friend came over and Chief got protective over me. The next couple times I was over there with Chief when the friend showed up I had Chief crated to avoid that from happening again(and he would bark in the crate at the friend and I would correct him). I don't think it's cool, funny, or cute at all when a dog is protecting me from friends/family who are not threats. Chief has never shown any aggression towards Todd. In fact he loves to give him kisses and will roll over for him. Todd has fed him plenty of times and has worked OB with him. They have formed a good relationship but Chief is definitely my dog.


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## rjvamp

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

How is Todd doing? Is he back from the clinic?


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## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Also, something you need to be aware of- this may be reported to the Health Dept and Chief may now have an official bite record. Depending on your area, he might need to be registered as a "dangerous dog." I am







that this is not the case, but be aware so you don't get thrown off guard if they lay this on you.

If you don't have enough crates for every dog, given this situation you really need to purchase another crate or maybe even bow out of fostering for now. We only see snippets of your life so no one can make a good recommendation but you might need to dedicate all your resources to your own dogs.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:but I do not think he was guarding the bed


He wasn't guarding at all, as far as a 'protection' thing.

You or the bed.

RESOURCE guarding is different and I'd agree with that. He was telling your boyfriend it was his (the dog's) bed. He didn't want to move from HIS bed. And he certainly wasn't going to allow your boyfriend to be the boss of him and tell him what to do.

This was NOT protection behavior.

This was your dog NOT knowing his role and position in the house. This WAS the dog TELLING your boyfriend to knock it off and let him alone.

IF YOU want your dog to be in charge. And if you WANT your dog to be able to know it's HIS decision where he wants to be, when. Then you can continue to make excuses and blame your boyfriend.

I would read up on those sites I posted to look at aggressions.

The situation at SOMEONE else's home with someone else involved is DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you see being in someone else's home, in a completely different setup, the same as YOUR home and YOUR bed with YOUR boyfriend................then you are NOT going to be able to get a handle on this.

In both, your dog reacted all on his own with no leadership or guidance from YOU.

But your home situation is from your dog thinking they have the lead role in the house and can take charge. The trigger was your boyfriend having the GALL to think he could remove the dog from THE DOGS bed.



> Quote:It was that one time I happened to be at the house with chief when the friend came over and Chief got protective over me.


That's not 'real' protection. *The friend wasn't doing anything!!!!! *And if YOU said it was ok, that should have (if your dog knew you were the leader) assured your dog and had him calm. The only similiarity being that AGAIN he didn't look to YOU for guidance or leadership but just reacted. But it would appear the trigger was from fear (or something else). 

EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE. Walks and exercise are NOT just about fatigue. But about YOU being out and about with your dog and YOU are in a leadership role to guide him thru the walk. So he looks to YOU gets guidance from YOU and learns that you are in charge and he doesn't have to take charge and react if YOU are calm and in control.

Dog classes are the same! Our dogs learn to look to us, learn from us, not have sudden fear reactions cause they know that YOU are in charge and control and will take over. They learn to NOT bark, NOT charge, listen and learn and behave because they don't have to keep the scary away.

I don't think your dog is a disobedient and out of control dog. I do not think that GENERALLY he's blowing you off and taking the leadership role when he's uncertain or wants his own way.

What I do think is that he humors you and generally listens/obeys cause it's easier and why not?

But when the crap hits the fan (in his mind, not reality) you are like an annoying gnat in his ear. I've got it mom, stay behind and shut up cause I will bite/bark/take charge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said before. Classes aren't about 'obedience' per say. I've raised/trained 4 dogs and they darn well know their commmands to before I start classes. But when I go to classes (and I always will and BTW have NO dogs that have bit anyone in my house ) they seem to go selectively deaf in a new situation with new dogs/people/places.

Suddenly my perfectly trained dogs lose their minds and don't listen to me at all. UNTIL they learn to in class, in the world, etc.


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## Emoore

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Sounds to me like a fear issue rather than a dominance/protection issue. The fact that he curled up behind you doesn't sound like he was protecting your or trying to be dominant, sounds like he was hoping you'd protect him.

Definitely go see a behaviorist.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I was thinking about the fear thing too. 

NILIF is a big relief to the dogs, but you have to really be the leader all the time. So that the dog looks to you, like said above, for everything before acting. Because they know you will handle it. 

Kind of like a teacher. The good teachers have the classrooms where kids thrive, and IF something happens, if they get bopped on the head with a lunchbox, they don't hit the kid back that did it, they look at the teacher, and the teacher steps in. Whew, what a relief for those kids that they don't have a Lord of the Flies classroom. 

That's what our dogs want. I dropped out of one obedience class with Bella because it was heading toward Rally. I am not good with left-right, line dance type things and instead of leading her, I was off kilter too, and it was freaking her the heck out! 

So it takes a lot of thought of what you are communicating to your dog, and a dog who is afraid needs to be handled with confidence and assurance, and never be given the pressure of being in charge. 

Check out the Yahoo shy k9 site. A dog can think they are in charge and still be fearful. Creates a mess! 

All those things in the list I mentioned above, what MRL and others are saying, the more I think of it, the more important I think they are.


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## MaggieRoseLee

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Quote:A dog can think they are in charge and still be fearful. Creates a mess!


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## gsdlove212

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I have to agree with MaggieRoseLee on this one. Sounds to me like Chief thinks he is large and in charge. I think it is very important to bring him back to reality and that is going to mean some serious world shaking! The advice MRL gave you, IMO is sound. I also think that finding a good behaviorist will also help you with some "hands on" work, advice, and training.


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## Brightelf

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Jean and MaggieRoseLee have given you ideal advice.









Deeeeep breaths! Yes, this is a serious issue. But, this is something that can be worked on.









Please listen to what folks are saying-- Chief was not protective of you in either situation. He was "large and in charge." Time to change his thinking and demote your dog!

Chief needs: 

NILIF
Vet check
Behaviorist visit
Obedience classes
WAY more excersise-- even if he is a blob around the house
Zero furniture privilages
Zero praise, treats, eye contact, cuddles-- unless he WORKS for them.

Does that sound harsh? It does. Give him a chance to WORK for those things. Was the sit slow? No cookie/praise/petting for that, let him do it again, and better. Time to raise the bar for this dog. job well done.

You're not his resource to guard. You're going to be more his leader that he's had before-- and he will LOVE it. Not right away, he'll be surprised by the change. But, he can r-e-l-a-x under a calm, assertive, strong leader.

Yup, a CALM leader. This was a wake-up call, but that's okay. *You have the resources and tools, both without and within yourself, to rise to become that calm, confident leader who guides him.* You can do this for Chief!


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## StGeorgeK9

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsTodd left and Chief went into a corner and curled up. His crate is currently being occupied by our new foster dog who I can't leave to just run around freely and to his own devices just yet.


Do you think this has anything to do with his aggression? He just got kicked out of his bed, and now didnt want to loose another bed? Just throwing out ideas...............Some really good feedback already and all I had to add was this. Good luck and I know you must be devastated.


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## Raziel

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Im sooo sorry this happened! Great advise all given above me.
First thing I would go to the vet with him.

How old is Chief?
He must be taught (maybe too late now) that biting to the face is completly unaccepetable.
My dog would mouth my hands but NEVER EVER to put his teeth on my face.
WOW. Im so sorry, hope your bf is ok.


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## Dainerra

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

how is your boyfriend this morning?

a couple things that no one else touched on yet. 
when Chief came into the bathroom while you were there with your BF, he wasn't knowing he did something wrong. He was a dominate dog coming to tell his subjects "buck up, I didn't hurt you"

Definitely this was NOT your boyfriend's fault. Any person who lives in the house should have no problem making the dog move. The fact that Chief is confident enough in his ranking to hand out discipline speaks volumes about how he views your BF. 

So, do what everyone says. Vet Check ASAP, and NILF NILF NILF. Chief isn't going to like it, especially if he is a naturally dominant dog. I wonder if you are unknowingly sending out vibes that Chief outranks your BF? just something that popped into my mind since you blame him for what happened rather than the dog?


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## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

You got an excellent advice. I'll add my view on this and I may be off, of course, since I can only speculate based on what you said now and in your previous posts.



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsChief isn't a high active or driven dog. He is an older rescue dog and he mostly just lays around. He is very quiet in the apartment and is never demanding. He is one of the calmest and laid-back dogs I know. A couple walks a day is all he needs, so I know this isn't an exercise issue.


 This is your mistake right here in assessing your dog. Your dog does have drive, just not a prey drive, and his calmness in the apartment is not a lack of drive or no need for a good run but an off switch. He does need an exercise and a couple walks don't do it for him. 

The moment I saw a picture of Chief I told myself that he looked like a copy of my dog. After you mentioned lack of drive I told myself, yeah, it's a DDR probably. Then I saw him on the beds and couches and thought again 'well, this dog definitely has a different temperament if they allow him to do that'. It turns out he doesn't have a different temperament, his drives are not prey but defense and fight, and his personality is strong. He was underestimated.

I do not see any fear in him. I see a confident dog that corrected your husband. You do need to channel his drives into the right activity and teach him rules. Love doesn't mean respect and Chief only demands respect at this moment, and he doesn't respect you.


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## SunCzarina

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Great advice above! I just want to add something in regards to this.



> Quote:Chief walked up to him and lightly touched his nose to his hand where there was blood and had the look in his eyes like he knew he did something wrong.


Once upon a time, I took in a rescue who'd been abused by a woman. My DH fell in love with this dog and we decided to keep him. 

HE hadn't been with us long the first time he bit me. He was taking a nap under the kitchen table. I walked in the room, when he came out from under the table, I said hi to him and offered both my hands to him sniff (and so he would see I didn't have anything to beat him with). I didn't go over to him, he came to me, I didn't touch him. He bit me square on both thumbs. I screamed, Bobby came in and the dog did the same thing Chief did, seemed to understand he did something wrong and acted sorry. The second time he bit me was a very similar situation... so don't let Chief fool you that he's sorry about biting your BF.


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## Sashmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Im not sure what to tell you except I have been there done that. My GSD, now deceased nailed my husband, always on the hand 3X. The first time, I was sleeping in the bedroom with the door closed, hubby said it was like he was guarding me. He came out of the bathroom and S jumped up and grabbed him by the hand HARD NO STITCHES but it hurt. I really cant remember the 2 other times. I think it was so painful to me that my dog would do this and now that he died, Ive kind of put it out of my mind. My DH hadnt always lived here, in fact he lived in another State for 2 yrs......I refuse to play dog psychologist anymore, some are just quirky. After the first bite, I told hubby he would be feeding him from now on, etc had his Thyroidchecked *normal* and it still happened twice again. 
Im just not sure what to tell you. It was a quirky thing. One thing my DH learned, he would not reach for Sash and I told him: do not ever corner him, he gets weird. But he really did seem to be a one person dog. I never could figure it out. He also seemed jealous of my grown son. He growled at him one night and I really let him have it. (we were just standing at the stove looking at something I was cooking) I DO think dogs get jealous so, try the NILF, he does need to rethink his role in the house but it isnt easy. 
Otherwise, to me he was the perfect dog, he had so many good qualities and like your GSD wasnt demanding. He was happy to lay around on sofa during the day and go out back and chase his tennis balls until he was ready to drop. lol There were only 2 options for me: euthanasia or keep him. I kept him til the end. 
I know of a dog right now in a rescue who also bonds closely to only *one * owner....they are trying to find a special home for him. 
Good luck, I know how upsetting this is


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## Chicagocanine

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I would get a full vet check-up first and then see a behaviorist. In the meantime I would keep a leash on him so there is no grabbing of the collar and limit his resources (no furniture privileges, limited toy/treat privileges under supervision, etc...)


----------



## mysablegsd

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsI will be completely honest here. Elaine I was still pretty much asleep when this all happened. I did immediately make him get off the bed after the incident, I did not verbally correct him though as I was just taken completely off guard, dumbfounded, baffled, shellshocked, etc. By the time I took everything in it would have been too late to correct him. I followed Todd to the bathroom and stood there in silence next to him as he was bleeding in the sink. Chief walked up to him and lightly touched his nose to his hand where there was blood and had the look in his eyes like he knew he did something wrong. Todd left and Chief went into a corner and curled up. His crate is currently being occupied by our new foster dog who I can't leave to just run around freely and to his own devices just yet.
> 
> I haven't repeatedly let him get away with aggression to the friend. I stated that when I was not at the house, Chief and my brother's friend played and got along great. It was that one time I happened to be at the house with chief when the friend came over and Chief got protective over me. The next couple times I was over there with Chief when the friend showed up I had Chief crated to avoid that from happening again(and he would bark in the crate at the friend and I would correct him). I don't think it's cool, funny, or cute at all when a dog is protecting me from friends/family who are not threats. Chief has never shown any aggression towards Todd. In fact he loves to give him kisses and will roll over for him. Todd has fed him plenty of times and has worked OB with him. They have formed a good relationship but Chief is definitely my dog.


Never have more dogs than you have enough crates for.


----------



## Toffifay

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I am so sorry that this happened to Todd and you...









I was just wondering if maybe having the new foster dog, another male and a large breed, in the apartment might be putting stress on Chief? You say that he is very mellow and calm...maybe he just isn't showing that he isn't happy about sharing his "life" with the dobie. 

I had a Golden once who was the best dog ever, well I took in a foster dog, a male standard poodle. My Golden was not happy and was showed he was very stressed about having another adult dog thrust upon him. (I did have a JRT, at the time, too) My Golden was so stressed out by the new addition that he actually began breaking out with hot spots. He was clingy, sulky and would try to get as far away as possible from the new (very active St. Poodle). When I re-homed the Poodle , my Golden was back to his old happy self.

I agree with what the other posters have said about the resource guarding and everything else...just thought I would mention what I was thinking about...

Good Luck!!


----------



## arycrest

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I'm so sorry this happened, I hope your BF is going to be okay.

I agree you got excellent suggestions on how to handle Chief's problem. I just have one tiny suggestion I haven't seen listed yet. It's gross but ...

When I'm having a behavior issue, I do something that isn't exactly something you'd find in Miss Manner's Book of Etiquette ... I spit in the dinner bowl of the dog whose behavior I'm trying to modify. 

This sends a silent message to the dog, that he's the low man on the Totem Pole, he's eating only after the leader (ME) has had her fill. (If it's a pack issue, I'll also allow the other Hooligans to take a small bite out of the offender's bowl.)

People may disagree with this, but it's always worked for me.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I am so sorry this happened and understand how shook up you are. I have had similar things happened and they were shocking and life changing. Basu bit someone and spent the next 2 years leashed to me and on strict NILIF for the rest of his life. We worked it out though and it never happened again. 

I agree that he's resource guarding combined and that big time NILIF is called for. I would not keep him out of the bedroom but would crate him in the bedroom. *And I think that Eisis is on to something REALLY important. * There has been a big change recently in your household. 

When Chama got older she started acting out when I got a new foster or adopted a new dog. She didn't act out towards people but she would try to attack strange dogs we saw when walking.







This was a dog who lived with me her entire life, was the perfect model of obedience and was off leash trained, etc. and she charged into the street after another dog. I almost passed out the first time it happened, I was so shocked. Then when it happened again at the beginning of another foster I put two and two together. She was not very secure about her role in the dog pack and the new dog put a tremendous amount of stress on her. 

I would think seriously about finding a different foster home for the dobe and hold off on fostering, getting a new dog until you get things worked out with Chief.


----------



## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I just wanted to point out something that someone had said as it was one of my first thoughts too...get yourself ready for A/C to show up at your door. Get Chiefs vaccination records ready and try to prepare yourself mentally for the knock at the door.

I'm sorry this has happened and wish you the best of luck. Your getting a lot of good advise here, def take it. 

I think theres a part of each of us that want to feel 'protected' by our dogs, but WE need to be the ones to decide what we need protection from. In this case though, I tend to believe that Chief was making too many decisions on his own. He was protecting HIS right to lay wherever HE wanted when HE wanted to lay there.


----------



## doggonefool

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I'm sorry this happened...it is scary and many of us have been through it so take a deep breath









Most Doctors will have to notify of a bite incident so it may be on Chief's record. One bite is not usually a death sentence unless it is particularly viscious. Noone can really know why this happened as we don't know your dog like you do, but this concerns me:

<span style="color: #000066">(I know this has been noted previously in this post but is important enough to note again!)</span>



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDs His crate is currently being occupied by our new foster dog who I can't leave to just run around freely and to his own devices just yet.


As well as the resource guarding, you have recently added a new family member and Chief may be a bit unsettled by having his crate occupied as well as a new family member. We always have a period of adjustment (ours is still going on a year later) when someone new enters the pack. 

Even a dog with few protective instincts doesn't like their space invaded by another, even a family member (Jukka and Loki get REALLY nasty if one goes in the other's crate). A German Shepherd who is naturally protective may have a stronger reaction. Chief has had his home space and his sleeping space invaded and may be pretty reactive to that...just my opinion.

The advice that you have been given is really good advice-I hope that some of it helps you. Please keep us posted


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Todd didn't give any information out about Chief to the doctor. Not even color or breed. There was no bite report filed, he didn't want to do that to Chief because he knew what would happen. 


I contacted the rescue I adopted him from and they're working on a place for him to go and he will be behaviorally evaluated and tested. With what has happened I just honestly do not feel comfortable with him being here. I know my boyfriend and I know he will probably never fully trust Chief and will always be somewhat fearful of him and that's not fair for someone to be scared of their own dog and have to live like that. I do not want to touch Chief or even look at him right now. Every time I see Todd's face I feel so horrible. I can't believe how nice he was about the whole situation, if I was to get bit in the face by a boyfriend's dog I would likely come unglued. Poor Todd knows I love this dog dearly so I guess he doesn't want to hurt me.

There was a time when I was living with a family last year, the people who originally fostered Chief and for some reason Chief never liked their son after he became my dog. He would jump up and bark everytime he came home, one time he even bit his hand as he walked past, not hard but he nicked it. He even barked at him when he was crated in my room with the door shut and her son was walking into the home. We were told to keep Chief on a leash and have the son give him treats(make him work for it) and all of that kind of stuff but it didn't work, Chief just didn't like him. Now that I am sitting here thinking more about it, he has only reacted this way towards men and never a woman. One of my good friends dog sits for me at times and one morning her husband went to let Chief out of the crate and he immediately ran into their bedroom and hopped up on the bed and lied down next to the wife, refusing to go outside to potty when the husband tried to call him out.

About the new foster and the crate issue...Chief has lived with a number of different dogs since he came into the rescue and has been around fosters going in and out of the household. We had new ones in all the time with the family I lived with and he never had an issue with other dogs, he was never aggressive to them or anything, he just did his own thing. At one time we had 5-7 dogs in the house and they all got along great. We had a pit bull last year in our apartment who we added to the pack and Chief had no issues with her, they were playing in no time and became best buds. The second day this Doberman was here Chief began playing with him and they have played a few more times. It's not a new dog issue..he doesn't get that kind of stress and if he did I would never do that to him. We folded Chief's crate up a long time ago and it's been sitting in the closet because he is a very trustworthy dog and doesn't get into trouble, he just finds a spot to curl up and lay down when we leave. He is crate trained but we haven't had to crate him in the longest time. He doesn't see the Doberman using his crate as an issue, he could care less. Chief has no resource guarding issues when it comes to toys, bones, food, crates, etc.


I honestly don't feel that all the work and training in the world could rid Chief of this issue, I think a behaviorist could give me the tools to manage it, but Todd has done everything right with him for 8 months now(feeding and practicing NILIF and obedience) and he still did this to him. I am sorry but I am here with my dog. I heard the bite and I now have to see the holes in my boyfriend's face. The doctor said the one on his cheek will likely scar. He didn't do stitches for fear of infection.


Our pit bull had to eventually be euthanized due to unmanageable human aggression. I got a lot of hate and flack for even considering that but I felt guilty and tried to hand her to someone who tried rehabilitating her and it did not help in the end, and she was too much of a liability for us to manage for the rest of her life.


I full on expect to be judged in this situation..it was the same thing we went through with our pit bull..i've heard every side, everyone has their opinions, if I am not welcome here for my course of action then I will calmly delete my account. I do not want to start a war. If this had been a bite on the hand it might be a bit different but the face is just too major for me to try and deal with. Whose to say down the line when we have a kid and they come running to me or come near me or something that Chief wouldn't lash out and bite down..and one bite to a child's head is all it would take to be game over. I have had Chief for a little over a year now and yes I am super attached, but I want to do what is fair and right for everyone involved, I know there are some people out there that would want a dog like him, but that is not me. I am very involved with rescue and am not one to go around dumping my pets, but this is one very serious situation and I know I do not have the resources or means to take on a task as this one.


----------



## doggonefool

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Wow. Sorry to hear that. Good Luck to Chief in finding a new home...

Most of us don't mean to come across as sitting in judgement. You ask for advice and we offer the best that we can.

I know how much work it is to deal with a _sensitive dog_ issue. Impossible to do it if your hearts are not in it.

Best of Luck


----------



## Hatterasser

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

MustLoveGSDs

I originally accepted Thor as a rescue from a life tied to a tree far from anyone. He had been tied to the tree at 3 months and remained there until he was a year old. He came to me with no housetraining, no clue of commands, no socialization. He was an aloof, distant dog when he arrived but I loved him and worked with him using (instinctively since I had never heard of it then) NILIF. He became my shadow, bonded closely to me. I rescued another female from our local pound a year and a half later to keep him company and used NILIF with her as well. Both my dogs are well behaved with me. They do not get toys, have their leashes put on, go out the door, or eat until they sit and wait for me to tell them they can do so. In fact they do nothing unless I tell them it's okay.

Yet all of this did not keep Thor from biting a neighbor without any precursive warning. We all agreed afterwards that he felt a provocation as the man was holding a bunch of branches in his hand (he talks with his hands) and was swinging them in the air towards me. The neighbor, A/C, and I all decided he thought I was in danger and responded accordingly in a protective manner. It wasn't until he went after the same man again who was doing nothing that we realized we had a problem on our hands. So much of a problem that Thor was indeed named a "potentially dangerous dog". He must be controlled on the property (either leash or fenced yard) and he is not allowed off the property without a muzzle. 

Now, anyone that knows Thor (animal control, family, friends, his vets and their assistants, his OB trainer, etc.) think he is the most laid back, the biggest wuss, they've ever met. Takes 3 of us to hold him down just to get his nails clipped; he screams, whines, and cries like we're amputating his leg without anesthetic. A behaviorist was brought in to try and understand why he bites without provocation (no warnings, no growls, no hackles, nothing...from a perfect sit to a lunge/bite). His conclusion/diagnosis is that Thor suffers from fear aggression and separation anxiety....in walking Thor away and out of sight from me, the dog cried and cried and pulled to get back to me the entire time.

I wish I were closer to the behaviorist, and/or had the money to work with him and Thor but for now, I just keep Thor in a muzzle whenever we go for walks. However, now that he's been labeled (and rightfully so) a potentially dangerous dog, I have no choice until I can afford to work with him. But what is strange to me is why this big baby, this lovable boy who allows me to hug him, squeeze him, play rough with him and he's never even growled at anything with me and is totally bonded to me, is so reactive to outsiders. Your Chief's behavior sounds only too familiar to me. If I had any suggestion, it would be to find a behaviorist who will work with him as he sounds like he shares the same fear aggression that Thor suffers from.


----------



## Mary Jane

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Look, I would hate to be in your shoes. Todd is acting like a prince in this, he must be a good man. I surely understand your consideration of his welfare and that of anyone in your home.

As a not very experienced person I have no business to say this, but perhaps you can reconsider the situation after you hear the evaluation of Chief. His problems need to be dealt wherever he is, and you and he have formed a bond. 

In any case, you have my sincere hopes that Todd will recover well and that Chief can find the right home, even if it's not yours,

I'm sorry that you have to cope with this.

MJ


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I am very sorry, for all of you. I hope Todd is okay and I hope you recover as well, I know this is very traumatic and I wish you the best.


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

It would be great if you can post updates on this after he has been eval'd. 
It is knowledge that helps us all and even though this being such a horrible experience, we can all possibly learn from it. 
I hope no one here judges you, they don't walk in your shoes.
After going thru nearly the same thing with my foster, I really feel your pain.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I do have to say, that hopefully Chief will have a better chance at being rehomed than being pts in this instance - it really sounds like the bite was not his fault.

This is the second dog with human/dog interaction issues. I think perhaps it's time to evaluate what is going on with the dynamic in the household? The fosters, the human relationships, etc.

Also have to wonder, not meant to be answered or defended on this board, how the relationship between you and your bf is, and if he has any harbored resentment towards you. On the surface, my (soon to be) ex were getting along fine, had no clue what he was up to behind my back, but Max sure took note and they got along less and less, and stb-ex almost got a couple bites from him.

And if that relationship is okay, I also wonder, what is really going on with that relationship that those two have, that you are not seeing - again, not meant to be answered or defended on this board.


----------



## LisaT

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlIt would be great if you can post updates on this after he has been eval'd.
> It is knowledge that helps us all and even though this being such a horrible experience, we can all possibly learn from it.


I completely agree with this.


----------



## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I don't think anyone is judging here, that's a difficult situation and everyone just tries to give their opinion how to deal with it. Nothing is wrong with finding a better, more suitable home for a dog because it will be a better outcome for everybody in this situation.

I agree with Lisa about the need to reevaluate the dynamics in the household. At this point I think it's a good idea to let the rescue rehome Chief and also find a different foster home for your dobie pup. There is nothing wrong in misjudging your abilities to handle a serious breed (your pit) once, you didn't know better, for the second time it's a warning sign and a high time to rethink your handling techniques (Chief), but it will be very sad if the story repeats itself third time in a year with your new pup. Dogs are not toys and we need to remember the lessons they teach us.

Chief bit in the face because the face was close to him and because he was issuing a correction, not because he was extra vicious.


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## jake

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

dogs have as much an emotional life and suffer from emotional disorders just as humans do.Some would say it is medical disorder-lack of NILF training-dominance related.I have posted problems with my son's dog under human aggression.
Will give advice from behaviorist who evaluated my son's dog for human aggression.He did not euth the dog
Advice was-this dog may NEVER be safe with any human.He is very compliant with his training and does NOT consider himself an alpha.He is very much fear driven and also compliant ( NO aversive /punishment techniques are used by current owner.)IF you want to continue to interact with this dog and have him a part of your family you need to be very aware of "fear" not aggressive signals.Any obedience training should be done with MORE than one person-who the dog is familiar with.This is NOT a problem that will be solved in the near future and indeed may NOT be solved.Physical interaction with this dog may result in an attack.
Hate posting this but think I should


----------



## gsdlove212

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I am so glad that your BF did not tell anyone about the bite. In the state of Texas ANY dog that bites on the face is supposed to be humanely euthed and the dog tested for rabies. Which I think is absurd. DH did a stint at an ACO and that is what the laws said. Even a police K9...even little Fifi....if a dog bites from the neck up, then the dog doesn't get a second chance. 

I pray that Chief is able to get eval'd and you can decide where to go from there. I pray he is able to find a good stable home with strong fair leadership. And I pray there is never another incident.


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## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I would hazard a guess that Chief is NOT human aggressive. If he was, your BF would be looking at a facial transplant surgery. Chief issued a correction that is akin to a punch in the arm. Unfortunately human faces are only marginally stronger than tissue paper and toothpicks which is why face bites really SUCK. In the right home, Chief would likely do fantastic. 

Please post the evaluation of Chief. I'm interested in what happens to him- he's got a face that just tugs at me.


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## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

On a side note, any chance of taking him to a schutzhund club for an evaluation? If he gets good marks there, that could help the rescue find him a good working home. He could have a temperament issue, he could just be a strong dog without enough guidance and leadership for his needs, but a good training director/helper should be able to tell a lot about Chief.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Please don't give up on Chief. Dogs bite because they have teeth. As someone else said, your bf got bitten in the face b/c his face was right there. If he wanted to do serious damage he could have and he would have. Without seeing what happened I'd say it could have been a correction but it also could have been defensive/fear based. Or it could have been b/c he's not feeling well. 

I know it's scary (yes, I've been bitten more than once) but a dog that bites out of the blue like this has something going on. I hope the rescue will get him a full medical work up too. And I hope he does ok in his foster home. Please don't give up on him.


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## jake

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I would respectfully disagree.everyone familiar with heel nip herding-arm grabbing-face attack seems way different to me.


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## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I think in situations like that, as someone said the face just happened to be the closest thing. Dogs don't really understand that we don't have thick skin and thick fur so they deal with us like they deal with each other. It's not for us to say on an internet board but from the sound of it, Chief just needs very strong, strict leadership and a job. Chief is a dog for a true, natural leader, not one who has to read about leadership in a book. If the rescue allows him another chance and I sure hope they will, Chief may get a chance to find that home.


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## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I know this has been a difficult day and I appreciate that. I just wanted to add whenever something HUGE like this happens (life changing in other words and highly emontional) it might not be the right time to make any big decisions. Its just a thought. It might just be the right time to make sure everyones safe and gather information so you can make a decision you will be able to live with later. I think you may have made up your mind, but I wanted to throw this out there just in case.


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## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Just a question, if Todd didn't give any info about the dog (not even color or breed) that protects you, but if thats the case he would have to go through Rabies shots if he was bit by an unknown dog right?


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## aubie

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I agree with Rosa, it's been a long trying, emotional day. Give it a few days, sit down with Todd and talk about it. Glad to hear Todd is okay, and I do agree, it doesn't sound like a vicious attack, but a warning bite and the face was just, well, there instead of say a hand or arm. Not saying any is appropriate, but a vicious attack would have been much worse.


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## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

You just brought into the home a Dobie puppy right? It could be that Chiefs on edge because of the new arrival. I understand the pup was in the crate at the time, but this might really have an emontional impact on Chief.


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## Raziel

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Im sorry this happened. But people, the dog BIT HIM IN THE FACE. Not on the arm or leg. ON THE FACE.
How can they trust the dog?

If this were my dog he would be going to get tested for everything under the sun. 

Biting is NOT an acceptable behavior REGUARDLESS of the situation!
The bite WAS UNPROVOKED.
Im not saying put him down, but he must be seen by a professional so this does not happen again.

When did you get Chief?
They said dogs come out of their "shells" 6 months to 1 year after you get them.

Again, Im sorry to hear this. hope everything works out.


----------



## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Angel RIm sorry this happened. But people, the dog BIT HIM IN THE FACE. Not on the arm or leg. ON THE FACE.
> How can they trust the dog?
> 
> If this were my dog he would be going to get tested for everything under the sun.
> 
> Biting is NOT an acceptable behavior REGUARDLESS of the situation!
> The bite WAS UNPROVOKED.
> Im not saying put him down, but he must be seen by a professional so this does not happen again.
> 
> When did you get Chief?
> They said dogs come out of their "shells" 6 months to 1 year after you get them.
> 
> Again, Im sorry to hear this. hope everything works out.


Maybe we're not reading the same post, but NO ONE is writing its ok for a dog to bite. Of course, the dog could use a professional assessemnt but what do you expect in the meantime-a beating? 

signed,
"people"


----------



## Raziel

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: shilohsmom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Angel RIm sorry this happened. But people, the dog BIT HIM IN THE FACE. Not on the arm or leg. ON THE FACE.
> How can they trust the dog?
> 
> If this were my dog he would be going to get tested for everything under the sun.
> 
> Biting is NOT an acceptable behavior REGUARDLESS of the situation!
> The bite WAS UNPROVOKED.
> Im not saying put him down, but he must be seen by a professional so this does not happen again.
> 
> When did you get Chief?
> They said dogs come out of their "shells" 6 months to 1 year after you get them.
> 
> Again, Im sorry to hear this. hope everything works out.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe we're not reading the same post, but NO ONE is writing its ok for a dog to bite. Of course, the dog could use a professional assessemnt but what do you expect in the meantime-a beating?
> 
> signed,
> "people"
Click to expand...


OH YAH A BEATING....... What a STUPID childish thing to write.
Seriously.
Where does such an IGNORANT statement like that come from?
I cant even believe some of the things that people say on this forum.....


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## Dainerra

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

they already posted that the dog is going to be evaluated by a professional the rescue referred them to.

agreed that a face bite is a serious thing, but it's not like the dog jumped up from the floor to nail him in the face. Why do most children get bitten in the face? because their face is on the same level as the dog. In this case, the dog was on the bed, putting him at face height with an adult. Therefore, the dog lunged forward and got him in the face.

not excusing the dog's behavior at all, but let's not make it to be more than it is.


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## LisaT

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Angel RThe bite WAS UNPROVOKED.


Without seeing the dynamic, and without an evaluation, we don't really know this.


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## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

It comes from you! You make everything about drama..or should I write DRAMA.. Everyone had already suggested the dog get professional assessments, but all that he bit him IN THE FACE...ON THE FACE...WAS UNPROVOKED...drama, thats what I'm writing about.


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## aubie

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I don't think anyone is saying a bite to the face is okay, or that any bite is okay, but it is different than a vicious attack IMHO though. But if it happened to me, I'm sure I'd be just as shook up as she is.

I also wouldn't say unprovoked...something happened to set Chief off, sounds like being removed from the bed/collar touch was the trigger. Was his action right or appropriate? No, but it did provoke a reaction. I am NOT blaming anyone or defending the dog, but there was an action then a reaction. Unprovoked is when no action causes a reaction.


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## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Dainerrathey already posted that the dog is going to be evaluated by a professional the rescue referred them to.
> 
> agreed that a face bite is a serious thing, but it's not like the dog jumped up from the floor to nail him in the face. Why do most children get bitten in the face? because their face is on the same level as the dog. In this case, the dog was on the bed, putting him at face height with an adult. Therefore, the dog lunged forward and got him in the face.
> 
> not excusing the dog's behavior at all, but let's not make it to be more than it is.


Amen.


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## Raziel

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: shilohsmomIt comes from you! You make everything about drama..or should I write DRAMA.. Everyone had already suggested the dog get professional assessments, but all that he bit him IN THE FACE...ON THE FACE...WAS UNPROVOKED...drama, thats what I'm writing about.


How is typing in CAPS DRAMA?
LOL you make me laugh.
Seriously. Take a chill pill.
Im not here to offened anyone.
Im writing my outlook on things.
Everyone else gets to.
Noone has to follow my advice.
There is NO WAY you could be offened by my post.
What YOU said was WAY out of line.
The way the OP stated it, her bf went to take the dog by the collar.
Unprovoked bite IMHO
You dont have to agree.
I dont care.

Best of luck to this girl, her dog & her bf.


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## Dainerra

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

agree with the "unprovoked" also. The dog had a good reason, in his mind. Someone was trying to force him from his bed when he didn't want to go. A dog can't say "back off" or push someone away. He has teeth and he used them. If it had been an ATTACK he would have done a lot more damage. 

Believe me, a dog attacks your face, you don't mop up in the sink and then drive to the clinic.

Edited because I don't know why I wrote "beach" instead of bed lol


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## LisaT

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Angel RHow is typing in CAPS DRAMA?


Capital letters are the equivalent of shouting, raising the level of discourse, thus more dramatic.


----------



## Tihannah

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Dainerra
> Edited because I don't know why I wrote "beach" instead of bed lol


Because thats where we'd all rather be? Lying in the sun instead of freezing our butts off! LOL (Whoops! Just saw above post!) I meant "lol".







JK Lisa, trying to lighten up the thread a little?


----------



## SunCzarina

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Dainerra A dog can't say "back off"


Yes they can, it's called growling. The OP said the dog didn't growl, he just lunged and bit. In the face, not on the arm attached to the hand that was holding his collar, as I'd expect.


----------



## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I still can't help but wonder about the role of the new Dobie pup in the household and how this could have stressed out Chief. 

I'd also still would like to know if Todd is going to have to have Rabies shots since he didn't describe the dog that bit him?


----------



## Lila

Following the assessment you and Todd can decide what to do. We all know you've stated your attachment to Chief and we know that Todd is a cop. That being said don't make any hasty decisions about Chief's future. 

Being a rescue in the first place means that Chief will need more work than normal. Rescuing is a brave and sometimes foolhardy thing to do. I've looked at your prior post celebrating Chief's Gotcha Day. I know you love him intensely. 

Read the other posts. Now is not the time to make a final decision regarding Chief's future. It's emotional and shocking but "rescue work" has the potential to reveal something you never expected. Working through those problems requires a dedication and structure that I'm sure is within both of your capabilities providing that Chief's not evaluated as hopelessly "male aggressive".


----------



## shilohsmom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Angel RHow is typing in CAPS DRAMA?
> 
> 
> 
> Capital letters are the equivalent of shouting, raising the level of discourse, thus more dramatic.
Click to expand...

Thank you Lisa, Thats exactly why I can't handle reading her posts and normally skip over them entirely. I guess I'm in a bad mood tonight and it just set me over the edge. I apoligize to the board for my comments









Back to Chief.


----------



## BuoyantDog

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Dear Jamie,

MaggieRoseLee, Kathy, Jean, Brightelf, Dainerra, GSD07 have all offered good advice.

Chief is CHIEF, and that is clear to me. He has the rule of the roost in your house.

I don't have anything to add, other than what has been said, so if you want to know what I would say, go back to read the above posters' posts.

I am very sorry about what happened, and I am confident that when you follow the advice above, things will be ok. A basic obedience class for Chief and Todd would be good to strengthen their bond, help Chief trust Todd and see him as a leader. I know that Chief already knows obedience, but it is about the relationship between Chief and Todd.

Also, a vet check would be good. NILIF! NILIF! NILIF!

Please talk to us, as you are in my thoughts. 

Sincrely,
Christina


----------



## shilohsmom

> Originally Posted By: LilaFollowing the assessment you and Todd can decide what to do. We all know you've stated your attachment to Chief and we know that Todd is a cop. That being said don't make any hasty decisions about Chief's future.
> 
> Being a rescue in the first place means that Chief will need more work than normal. Rescuing is a brave and sometimes foolhardy thing to do. I've looked at your prior post celebrating Chief's Gotcha Day. I know you love him intensely.
> 
> Read the other posts. Now is not the time to make a final decision regarding Chief's future. It's emotional and shocking but "rescue work" has the potential to reveal something you never expected. Working through those problems requires a dedication and structure that I'm sure is within both of your capabilities providing that Chief's not evaluated as hopelessly "male aggressive".


What a wonderful post!


----------



## Raziel

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: shilohsmom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Angel RHow is typing in CAPS DRAMA?
> 
> 
> 
> Capital letters are the equivalent of shouting, raising the level of discourse, thus more dramatic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you Lisa, Thats exactly why I can't handle reading her posts and normally skip over them entirely. I guess I'm in a bad mood tonight and it just set me over the edge. I apoligize to the board for my comments
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back to Chief.
Click to expand...

Are you serious?
You can talk







about me beating a dog (why ever that even came out of your mouth.)

But I cant type in CAPS?
OH please forgive my typing in capital letters.
No wonder why so many people leave this board.


----------



## aubie

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Let's keep this on topic of supporting/helping the OP, not starting a war.


----------



## BuoyantDog

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Please understand that no one is judging you here. I have read the thread in its entirety. I see a lot of people who care and want to help. Please keep us updated, as you are still a very appreciated member of the forum. WE LOVE YOU!


----------



## BuoyantDog

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Ok, minus the last few posts, which have nothing to do with the original poster, nor her dog Chief. If anyone has a beef with anyone else, let's do it through PM. I, and many others, would like to try to help the original poster out. She needs the support of other faithful and dedicated GSD owners. Let's stay on topic, PLEASE!


----------



## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

About typing in CAPS, honestly I will do that here and there to emphasize, rather than using bold. I think that was Angel R's intention. I think it's one thing to have a word or two in CAPS and another thing entirely to use CAPS for the whole post....


----------



## Lila

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

It's unfortunate that the written word can be interpreted in many ways. It's also unfortunate that we're stuck with it and sometimes react to it.

Everyone please understand that we should be addressing our posts to Chief's parents and be on topic with them. 

This is not about us.


----------



## TitonsDad

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

WHAT THE [heck] IS GOING ON IN THIS FORUM?? PEOPLE GET UPTIGHT WAY TO QUICKLY THESE DAYS!!

Sorry, I had to bring a little humor with the all caps for emphasis...


Anyways, my Boxer/Pitbull mix bit me in the face once when she was 3 years old and my wife and I just got married. Thus the start of my wife sleeping in the same bed. Beau did not take to this well and has always assumed she was the absolute alpha dog. We solved that issue VERY quickly with extensive re-training and behavior management/modifications. Believe me, like you... I wanted to lash out and kill the darn dog. But, I had to control myself. 

Beau is suprisingly enough allowing Titon to be over her in the pack order. That never would have happened had I not intervened 6 years ago when that incident occurred. 

I wish you the best of luck and we are all here for you. Some of us have experience with this issue and some of us don't but willing to help in any way possible. 

Please let us know how the evaluation goes.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Hi everyone I'm still here and still reading all the posts. Here are the pics of Todd's face *warning* there is blood incase anyone needs to skip over them fast



































I asked Todd about what happened at the Doctor's regarding shots and all of that. Todd did tell the doc that he was bitten by our own dog and that the dog is current on all vaccines and todd already has his shots..since we know the dog is current he didnt need to get a rabies shot. I am guessing Todd explained the situation to the doctor so he didn't report it.


Believe me I do NOT want to see Chief destroyed. This was a bit of a traumatic experience for Todd and regardless if this was not a vicious attack and just a warning bite that just happened to be on his face, it still happened on his face and could have been a LOT worse and we do not want to take that chance again. Some people might be comfortable keeping a dog around that has bitten them or their family in the face but that is just beyond our comfort level and that is me being totally honest. Todd is absolutely scared of Chief now and does not want to be around him. I can't blame him because I would not want to live with a dog that has bitten me in the face. I AM in the process of contacting people in the rescue who can help seek out a behaviorist and give him a proper evaluation. If he can be saved then by all means I want him to live out a healthy life with someone who can manage him. I have fostered, trained, and adopted out many German Shepherds and have never encountered this type of situation before. This really makes me take a step back and think about my future rescue endeavors.


----------



## TitonsDad

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

So if I'm looking at the picture correctly, the chin bite was Chief's lower jaw and the two cheek bites were the upper jaw? So essentially he took Todd's whole mouth/face square across? I was under the assumption it was just a little nick bite. This looks scarier than I had originally thought. 

My bite from Beau was chin (her bottom jaw) and my nose (her upper jaw).


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Yeah his face wasn't really that close to Chief's either and it wasn't over him. He was reaching out with his arm to get the collar and Chief lunged out over me and got him.


----------



## Raziel

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsYeah his face wasn't really that close to Chief's either and it wasn't over him. He was reaching out with his arm to get the collar and Chief lunged out over me and got him.



Im so sorry.
Glad hes ok though.


----------



## TitonsDad

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Were they through and through puncture wounds?


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Give Todd my best, I'm so sorry this happend to you guys. I know you are devastated, I will keep you all in my thoughts and send good wishes your way.


----------



## robinhuerta

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I've been reading this thread for a while now....
I can empathize with the "rescue & fostering" situations, ideas & dedications......however;....these types of situations must be thought out with a "clear head" and sometimes, a hard heart.
I can absolutely understand, the Ops position.
This dog has lived in the household for several months.
This should not have happened.....but it did.
This has the possibility of happening again......and it probably will.
The bite is bad.......next time could be worse.
I have no doubt, what my own, personal decision would be....
JMO


----------



## GSDElsa

> Originally Posted By: LilaFollowing the assessment you and Todd can decide what to do. We all know you've stated your attachment to Chief and we know that Todd is a cop. That being said don't make any hasty decisions about Chief's future.
> 
> Being a rescue in the first place means that Chief will need more work than normal. Rescuing is a brave and sometimes foolhardy thing to do. I've looked at your prior post celebrating Chief's Gotcha Day. I know you love him intensely.
> 
> Read the other posts. Now is not the time to make a final decision regarding Chief's future. It's emotional and shocking but "rescue work" has the potential to reveal something you never expected. Working through those problems requires a dedication and structure that I'm sure is within both of your capabilities providing that Chief's not evaluated as hopelessly "male aggressive".


I think it needs to be stressed, again, that MustLove has a LOT of experience with rescues (so I'm not sure lecturing about it being a "foolhardy" thing is going to help anything) as both a foster and an intake coordniator. Also not sure why Todd being a cop needed to get brought up since it has abosolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Thanks Elsa, maybe it is odd that in my years of rescuing I have never come across a GSD behaving like Chief, I've dealt with some stubborn dogs but none that would ever sink their teeth into me or anyone I was with. Sure dedication, structure, and a lot of work can help or improve any issue and I'd like to say this would not be beyond my capabilities, but when it involves a pretty bad bite on the face with my SO, I'm sorry but that just really changes things. Chief clamped down across Todd's face, we're seriously lucky this wasn't a LOT worse. For a guy who has learned to be patient, kind, and understanding with me about the rescue world and my volunteering and who has such a big heart for dogs and really loves ours just as much as I do and helps me out so much, it absolutely sucks that this happened to him. He grew very attached to Chief and always bragged about him to his friends and to strangers. Chief was always giving him kisses and was so eager to go in a sit, down, or give him a shake sometimes more than he would be for me! None of us secretly hated this dog or wanted him gone, I was expecting him to be a part of our family until he grew old and was called home to the rainbow bridge, there are days when I would think about him passing on and I would break down and cry. What would I do without my Chief? This whole ordeal has not been easy by any means, I am trying my best to be logical and level-headed in this situation and make the best decision for the humans and the dog.


PS thanks for all the well wishes for Todd, everyone. He is reading/following this thread right along with me. He is doing alright, his jaw just hurts a good bit and he has taken a couple days off work. Unfortunately the poor guy didn't get any sleep yesterday because I was on the phone half the day with rescuers. He is more concerned with how I am feeling and keeps apologizing for what he did


----------



## SuzyE

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

one valuable thing my trainers taught me is to not over analyze the situation.The dog feels that he can cross the boundaries or he has no boundaries. The only reason Paige hasn't bitten anyone is because she is just marginally convinced that I am in charge. I have a client who always had some excuse why the dog bit them, sent them BOTH to the hospital. You think I would be afraid of this dog but we start a two week vacation today. Long ago after the first bite I changed my stance with this dog to avoid getting bitten.
some dogs can not be spoiled. some dogs cannot be on the bed. I had to be really strict with Paige when she was young-no bed etc. or else she would have me conquered.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

This definitely puts things in perspective for me as to the future with my dogs and their privileges. Chief is such a relaxed and calm dog that I never gave it any second thought as to allowing him on the bed. I guess he was subtly climbing up the ladder unbeknownst to me. In fact most times I would want him up there with me and he would rather stay on the floor. I definitely will be doing things a lot different with this Doberman and after what has happened with Chief, at this point I won't be allowing this dog on our furniture. Anytime he's even attempted to he has been corrected. When I first bring dogs into my home I work on boundaries and structure first and make sure they know they're place before they get any privileges/freedom.


----------



## SuzyE

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

live and learn. I call dogs like Chief -"vipers" they act mellow but they are ready to strike. The dog I mentioned above is like that-no warning just strike.
also when you have more than one dog there is always more dynamics, more than we can see. Often times an innocent looking dog is actually the provoker.
one thing we cannot ignore is a bite to the face. sorry for your troubles.


----------



## Toffifay

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

OH! Poor Todd!! Yikes...it looks like Chief had Todd's whole face in his jaws! You obviously have a very good relationship and he seems like a very kind man. I don't blame you one bit for giving Chief back to the Rescue for re-evaluation. It is wise for you to think of your future and what if you have babies...by then Chief might be too old to find another more suitable home.

I was at my local dog trainer/boarding kennel/ daycare place and saw a woman with a Pit/ Rhodesian mix. This was her own dog. It jumped up and bit her in the face so severely, because she was issuing a correction I believe, she had two line of stitches down either side of her mouth, each a couple of inches long!! It was shocking! She was there at the trainer, trying to rehabilitate her dog. I took one look at that dog, and the dog watched me as I handed some money through the chain link fence to the trainer...and my friend the trainer said "Careful!! Go slow!"

There is no way that lady was going to be able to handle that dog. 

Not sure where I was going with that..except a bite in the face is serious and I'm glad Todd didn't get it worse. Best of luck to you both!


----------



## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: SuzyEone valuable thing my trainers taught me is to not over analyze the situation.


 agree here. Return your dog to the rescue and learn from this, there is nothing else you can say or do for this dog. You are both are afraid of him and that's end of the story.

I've heard on this board GSDs are not for everyone, and only now I start understanding why breeders say that. GSD with correct temperament do have aggression in them, they are working dogs so they are mellow when they are not working, why is this such a surprise?


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I am not afraid of Chief, as I've said I've handled a lot of German shepherds, mostly rescues so most have had baggage. I personally love the protection breeds and I am definitely not a Labrador or purse dog person. Out of respect for Todd I will not keep Chief in our family.


----------



## Zoeys mom

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

What is Chiefs bite history? The bite to me doesn't look terrible if you put in perspective how bad it could have been if Chief had wanted to do real damage. Looks like a "hey buddy don't touch me bite" which in my limited experience means Chief needs to train with Todd so Chief knows Todd is his master like you. I'm sorry your BF wants him gone and respecting his decision is something I can relate too, but is there anyway you guys could choose to work with him? His odds of finding a forever home aren't good and he'll need someone who knows how to gain his trust and really work with him. It sounds like you know how to train and he already trusts you...

Hope all ends well and I am so sorry this happened.


----------



## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Your call. Just do realize it that this is your decision and Todd has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Catu

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: crhuertaI've been reading this thread for a while now....
> I can empathize with the "rescue & fostering" situations, ideas & dedications......however;....these types of situations must be thought out with a "clear head" and sometimes, a hard heart.
> I can absolutely understand, the Ops position.
> This dog has lived in the household for several months.
> This should not have happened.....but it did.
> This has the possibility of happening again......and it probably will.
> The bite is bad.......next time could be worse.
> I have no doubt, what my own, personal decision would be....
> JMO


She said it better than me.
My sympathies to you and Todd for what I know must be hard moments.


----------



## Lila

I'm sorry if you thought I was lecturing.

My understanding and use of the word "foolhardy" is that it's a risky, bold and adventurous thing to do.

My reference to Todd's occupation is that he is trained to assess and weigh risks. 

Between his training and her experience in rescue it's _possible_ that something _could_ be worked out. Only the two of them can decide such a thing regardless of what you and I may believe. They were there. We weren't.

No offense meant.

Heartfelt thoughts and wishes sent to all involved.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I ALSO use capital letters all the time. Not to yell or for drama. But for emphasis. 

And I'm not going to stop or quit this site.

I DO wish that the OP would just own/deal with one dog at a time. If the Dobe puppy is 'new' and may have aggravated the situation. Then it's 'last dog in, first dog out' for me. The GSD didn't ask a new dog to come in the house and upset the apple cart, so why the GSD is then 'punished' isn't fair to me.

Additionally, when I add a dog to my house, I know it's MY (see, capitals







) responsibility to make sure I make that dog 'all that it can be'. With training, socialization, education. I would try EVERYTHING before giving him up. Since most of the suggestions given by every one are EASY (again







) but would involve work from the OP (not excuses) I'm thinking the GSD is going to be out of the house in the end.

I think it would be interesting to see if with just ONE dog in the hours (the GSD) and seriously training/socializing and NILF went on. With a crate in place for management and for the dog to sleep in at night......be interesting to see if stability came into place again in the house.


----------



## Snickelfritz

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I just wanted to stay I'm sorry for what happened to you guys, and I know your in a tough situation.







I hope your BF heals quickly and I know you'll do the right thing by Chief and your family.


----------



## Snickelfritz

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> Post was removed by OP, but before that happened it was quoted here. Quote removed by Admin. Wisc.Tiger


Oh that's so unfair to her and her BF. Don't make them feel any worse than they already do. How sad, she is doing the right thing in her heart for her dog.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: Snickelfritz
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> quote removed by Wisc.Tiger Admin. Removed from original post but not before it was quoted
> 
> 
> 
> Oh that's so unfair to her and her BF. Don't make them feel any worse than they already do. How sad, she is doing the right thing in her heart for her dog.
Click to expand...

Oops, you are RIGHT, I had gone back in to edit and remove that.


----------



## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I actually think that it's ok to feel bad and even worse because this situation has to be remembered and never repeated again. The dog's life is at stake, nothing to be so cheerful about. I am not sure but I do not believe that rescues adopt out dogs with the history of bites. 

It the BF is afraid of big dogs than there should be no such dogs in the house no matter how good the OP is with the dogs. That would mean showing respect to Todd, not getting rid of the dog post factum and even without a vet check or evaluation. On the side note, I don't remember that Todd wanted Chief to leave, he's actually was very nice and protected his dog at the doctor's. 

For those who don't have a doubt with what has to be done with the dog, I wonder if you would schedule a trip to the vet to put down your own dogs immediately if a similar situation happened?


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

How about we wait until Chief has a full medical work up before condemning him to death? There are quite a few dogs on here who have become suddenly aggressive and when their owners had blood work done they found a thyroid or other health problem. 

I understand that she has quite a bit of rescue experience and she keeps saying it is completely out of character for Chief as he is a laid back, mellow dog, loves Todd, etc. _All of that means something is going on with Chief! _Please, everyone (and I realize, OP, that you are trying to get him help), let's not write off this dog without giving him a fair chance! 

Something caused this to happen and hopefully the rescue will work to figure out what's going on with Chief. Just b/c he hasn't reacted to fosters in the past doesn't mean this one is bugging him on some level. My example of Chama was that she had had many fosters, temp house guests, etc. but at some point she just had had enough and although she directed no aggression towards the dog in the house she redirected towards other dogs.


----------



## SuzyE

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

wow. I love dogs. I love my dogs more than words, but if Paige bit me in the face I don't know if I would love her THAT much anymore. I never understood how my clients LOOOOVED their dog so much after so many nasty bites. the things I read here sometimes-"it's not that bad" "he could have attacked" are unacceptable. Dogs are not to be liabilities, period. What if that dog bit a beautiful little girl instead of a big strong guy? Frankly "Chief" is lucky to be alive right now. I see that picture and I imagine my daughter's flawless face and what I would have done to Chief if he did that to her. They would probably be a justifiable homocide.


----------



## Snickelfritz

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: GSD07 The dog's life is at stake, nothing to be so cheerful about.










Who's cheerful about this situation?


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Wow...


Yes, we could send the Doberman to another foster home.

Yes, we could work hardcore NILIF with Chief.

Yes, Todd and Chief could attend an obedience class and we could all start from scratch again with Chief and our relationships with him.

Does that change the fact that Todd has 3 good-sized puncture wounds on his face from a dog he loved and trusted and his emotional scarring from the whole ordeal? 

No. If those of you who are apparently very comfortable with keeping a dog that has bitten you on the face, by all means lets arrange a transport and I will gladly re-home Chief to your family. Todd isn't afraid of big dogs, that is such an asinine remark. He is afraid of a dog that sunk his teeth into his face. Hey, I've worked as a bather before and I can tell you I've even been afraid of little 10 lb dogs who wanted to rip my head off and are so bad I couldn't even get a muzzle on them!


----------



## Jax08

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I've stayed out of this conversation because i really didn't have anything to add but now I have a couple of questions...

First, I'm not going to judge anyone for rehoming an animal under these circumstances. However, and I'm taking into consideration your experience with dogs, what are you going to change with future dogs to not have this happen again.

You dont' know what a 'velcro' dog is until you've had a doberman. These dogs are bred for personal protection. That is their only job. You have to set the ground rules with this puppy NOW, not later. And it's entirely possible for the puppy to get attached to one person and have another bite incident.

Second, if you rehome Chief how is Todd going to get over his fear? Would it be possible for you both to work with Chief, not only for Todd's sake, but also to help Chief transition into his new home?

Neither of these questions are meant to bash you or question your decision. But it is something for you to think about.


----------



## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDs... If those of you who are apparently very comfortable with keeping a dog that has bitten you on the face, by all means lets arrange a transport and I will gladly re-home Chief to your family.


If a dog that I raised bit me in my face or anywhere else, I would take full responsibility and certainly would not gladly arrange transport and gladly re-home my dog to a stranger from an internet forum within days after the incident. 

I would spend a lot of time and efforts to understand what went wrong and if there is a fix. I would work with my dog to overcome the problem, and after the dog is rehabilitated I may rehome the dog in case me or someone in my family would keep resenting the dog. We do need to take into consideration everyone we live with, animals and humans, and work on finding the best solution possible. 

But if after all I would still believe that my dog is unstable and dangerous I would be with my dog when he's put to sleep. I would not want someone else be hurt by my dog by sending him to another home, and I would also not want my dog to die among strangers. Then I would be left with a guilt for failing my dog, and would try very hard not to find myself in that position again.

Because I love my dog, MustLoveGSDs.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Jax, I fully understand what we are getting into with the Doberman. This was not an on the spur decision. Aside from my interaction and volunteer work with Dobes, we have researched and done our homework extensively on the breed. Todd and I have already talked extensively with the trainer who worked with him(she loves, owns, and competes with the breed herself) and if the adoption goes through then we will be taking classes with her. We personally like the velcro trait. We've definitely already gotten many famous nose pokes from the foster dude. What I will be doing differently is never allowing this dog on our furniture, BOTH of us working together to set clear boundaries and both of us handling the dog and working obedience, both doing the feeding everyday(one in am and the other in pm). I feel we've got a better hold on the situation since this dog is brand new to both of us. Right now we are working hardcore on training and rules and he doesn't have many freedoms. He is not allowed any affection/attention from us unless it is on our terms. I understand the importance of setting a good, solid foundation. Even if he does bond more to one of us than the other, we will be working toward equally earning his respect and trust so a bite or any fear of us handling him does not occur.


Todd only has a fear of Chief, not other dogs. Zelda and the foster can give him kisses and it's not like he shys away or anything. I will do what I have to to help Chief get into a new home. I am keeping him out of Todd's way but he is in no way being mistreated. There is a big behind the scenes thing involving this situation that REALLY sucks, has nothing to do with us or Chief but involves the rescue and I can't say it publicly, so lets just say I have my work cut out for me in finding this boy a place to go and a few other fellow rescue friends are trying to help me out and come up with ideas.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Ok GSD0, excuse my tone but do you honestly think I don't give a [censored] where Chief ends up? I was one of the more hardcore people on the adoption committee with the GSD rescue and I motioned to deny a LOT of people because they rubbed me the wrong way. I would never be able to live with myself if Chief ended up with someone who abused him or was neglectful.


I have a good grasp of what went wrong with Chief now and I know there is a fix. 2 behaviorists who were contacted about Chief already said this can be worked through but it would take a lot of effort on Todd's part..however some of the things they mentioned Todd has been doing with Chief for months now and it hasn't changed anything. This is why I did not rush to have him euthanized after it happened. I could work with Chief all day, however without Todd's cooperation I would be getting nowhere because I am not the one he bit. I am not the one he fears with certain things for whatever reason.


Sorry you feel that I do not love my dogs.


----------



## GSDElsa

> Originally Posted By: LilaI'm sorry if you thought I was lecturing.
> 
> My understanding and use of the word "foolhardy" is that it's a risky, bold and adventurous thing to do.


Well, that is the definition of "foolhardy" I was thinking of. But, I don't really see being involved in rescue or rescuing a dog in need as being bold, advententurous, and risky thing to do. 

But, no harm, no foul.


----------



## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Quote:I could work with Chief all day, however without Todd's cooperation I would be getting nowhere because I am not the one he bit.


This could not be emphasized enough. Everyone in the household must be on the same page or Chief will continue to push his luck. If you feel that Todd cannot be consistent and you are brutally honest with his abilities and you feel he cannot maintain the level of leadership and training, it may be best to rehome Chief. Please give it a little time and careful thought. Maybe Todd will feel better after a week or so. We all react differently to trauma and remember, once the decision to rehome is made and Chief is gone, it's permanent. It's a scary thing to be bit, especially in the face. I'm sure you are thinking about it every second and please don't let any of us force you into a decision. I think the advice to wait a little bit is very good but besides that, it's ultimately up to you and either decision you make will be difficult for its own reasons.











> Quote:Hey, I've worked as a bather before and I can tell you I've even been afraid of little 10 lb dogs who wanted to rip my head off and are so bad I couldn't even get a muzzle on them!


Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.







I trusted the pits, rotties, sheps, and other "dangerous breeds" over all the small dogs we got!


----------



## DianaM

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I just saw the photos and read the posts with that. Yikes. I totally understand Todd's position now! I think very few people can get past a bite like that. Folks, here is yet another reason why littermates should never be separated prior to 8 weeks of age- bite inhibition! Who knows if Chief received those valuable life lessons or missed out...

Have you discussed this with Chief's rescue? The important thing here now is that most rescues will NOT adopt out dogs with bite histories due to liability. What is his rescue's position? I assume they have seen the photos?


----------



## GSD07

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Unfortunately, we only respond to the information we can read, and often that information is incomplete. In he post I responded to you stated that you know what needs to be done but you don't want to do it, and you'll gladly ship Chief out of your sight. It rubbed me the wrong way, too. I'm glad that you do care for Chief, thank you for your clarification. 

As I said before, he needs to be rehomed, which may take some time, but he does not deserve to die. The decision is yours, and it's not an easy one.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

That was sort of a snarky/sarcastic line from me because I am very frustrated right now. Not meant to be taken literal but of course it's hard to tell over the internet so I can't fault you for that.

I never said he deserved to die so I hope you do not think I believe that. In fact I am trying hard to save him right now, again there is a major thing involving the rescue that i cant disclose publicly, but just know that I, along with a handful of other rescuers who know and love chief, are trying hard to figure out what to do and where he can go.


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Diana, PM sent


----------



## onyx'girl

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: GSD07I actually think that it's ok to feel bad and even worse because this situation has to be remembered and never repeated again. The dog's life is at stake, nothing to be so cheerful about. I am not sure but I do not believe that rescues adopt out dogs with the history of bites.


I posted on page one of this thread about the same experience(not face but a bite to the back) and the rescue I was working with _did _adopt out the dog two weeks after I returned him to his former foster...they blamed me for the bite, and he was never evaluated when I returned him. I still wonder if he is ok, and in his forever home, or did he do the same to his new owners DH?
I quit working with this rescue, they are all about numbers and $.


----------



## selzer

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

This is really a bummer. 

If the dog is an older dog, and you have had him for a time frame, years?, and this is really unbelieveable, then yes, check out the physical first. If he has something going on and medicine will help, then ok. 

I put down my first GSD. I had no one but myself to blame about that. He was a strong working line dog and I was a novice soft owner. He took over. I was a terrible owner, and made every mistake in the book. He DID have a medical problem, an injury that continued to give him pain. He was intact and there was a bitch in heat in the house. There was a second bitch in the house too. The one that was in heat was a new addition, and my Arwen was lost and had just been found.

Anyway, the dog would not let Arwen eat. I was leaving he and Arwen in the lower end of my house, and Mina in the upper end. I had to go to work, and Arwen was starving after her weeks in the wild. So being hurried and frustrated, hearing him snarling at her to get her off the food, I was like "OH NO YOU DON"T!" 

I grabbed him and jerked him away from her. He bit my wrist. It did not break the skin, but it was definitely a response to my authority. Again, I said, NO! and grabbed his collar, and he bit my hand, three fingers bear scars from that. But in hindsight, I know know that he was just telling me to back off. He wasn't trying to hurt me.

He was the boss. I put him in a crate and went to work. I came home after getting a tetnus shot and antibiotics. (I get infections easily.) I did some soul searching. I called the shelter, but they would not even consider taking him. This was really a gut reaction. I could not destroy him for two weeks anyway even though he was UTD on shots. 

I looked at all the ways his aggression had increased. His injury (shattered long bone in his front leg) made exercise and obedience classes not possible. He was scarey around babies. My sister (who was an adult) always liked him, but he lunged and snapped at her more than once. Every time there was a reason. Every time it scared me though.

I came to the conclusion that the dog was my responsibility and and I put the dog down. I live with that decision. It was, I think, the right decision at the time. Today, I do not think this would happen with a pup I raised, and I think I could manage it if it did. But I am not dealing with a second person here either.

If there is no health issue, the question is, in good faith, can you give this dog back up to the rescue? I understand that you are being up front with them about the bite, but if this dog goes to another family, someone moves, someone dies, and the dog is passed on again, maybe to a family with kids, or a family with people who do not know what they are getting in to. Will the dog bite again?

The rescue will ask these questions, and will probably choose to not adopt this boy out again. I do not know for sure, but most will not adopt out a dog with a bite history. 

I think that the choices here are to keep the dog and work with him, or to humanely euthanize the dog, unless you can with complete disclosure find someone from a working venue that is willing to take the dog on. 

I feel for you. It is a tough choice. It does not mean you do not love your dog.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

What it sounds like is that Chief has a deep seated trigger from a past or many past experiences. Many people grab collars when they are being abusive to dogs or use the collar to drag a dog some place. It also sounds like Chief as lost his warning growl, many people don't understand the purpose of the growl and will repeatedly punish a dog for growling, eventually the dog stops growling and just goes to the next step which is the bite. I am guessing that Chief's trigger is very specific, a certain amount of pressure and possibly a certain angle that blew him out.

Can he be fixed, probably but in order for him to be really fixed Todd has to do it, IMHO. Sending him to another foster home or rescue, it may only be time until the pressure and the angle are correct on the collar and he will blow again. He needs to be worked with Todd and an experienced trainer to get him past the memory reflex.

I will give you my background for this conclusion. I adopted a 4 month old St.Bernard mix from the HS. The story was (I am sure rescues have heard this a zillion times) they were having a baby and didn't trust the big dog, Don't get me started on that one. Any way he was fine with my DH when he met him in the car when I stopped at his work on the way home. But when DH walked in the pup ran to the corner of the bedroom and laid there shaking. That told me a ton, so we went to work on establishing trust with the DH and the Pup. When he was a full grown dog he was up on the couch and I wanted him off, I grabbed his collar to remove him and I got a growl. OK, so I just tapped him on the ribs and said off, Got a bigger growl. So I looked him in the eye and said, OK bud I understand that you have been physically pushed around (abused) as a pup and now you are full grown you aren't taking it any more, but I want you off my couch now. All I had to do was use my voice and give him has hand command and he got off the couch. But if I would have continued to push his trigger I would have been bit.

There are things that are called muscle memory that will trigger responses. So in my case the muscle memory triggered a memory in the dog's brain. See I very seldom use a collar to move dogs, I use my voice, I use my body to get the to understand that I want them to move. But I also get my dogs use to me grabbing their collar just in case I need to but those lessons are full of collar grab and reward.

The trigger has to be dealt with and you need an experienced trainer to help with that.

Val


----------



## doggonefool

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Hugs To you and Todd. This is hard; having dogs is hard. We give them our hearts and sometimes that's not enough. 

It takes a lot of time, work, and sometimes money to deal with an unpredictable dog. The choices that we are forced to make at one time in our lives may be different at another time...it is not for anyone else to judge. 

River couldn't stand DH when she first joined us. I have gotten bitten a couple of times(never in the face) by my mistakes in learning how to handle her, and my error in judgement caused my sister to get bitten. It was not a popular decision in my family, that we kep her after that *but* DH was totally on board with working with her; he was the one who said "let's keep her" (though he doesn't really do any of the work)

We have to assume that she WILL bite. We take actions to protect her and other people when anyone is around. We no longer feel that we have any room for error or lack of judgement. My kids are grown and don't live here. That makes a really big difference in our decisions...I could never have kept her if my kids were young and still at home.

I know that in your love of Chief, you will do what is best for all of you. Please, keep us posted, even if some of us







you off


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Once the dog has this kind of bite history, he becomes a huge problem for a "normal" rescue. I know, I know, the rescue always takes the dog back. The question will be is where to put him. A foster home that can handle him, does not have a man living in it or visiting, no kids visiting. There are not many foster homes like that out there. And what if he were to bite the foster? A second bite would be a huge liability suit, which could shut down the rescue or worse. I know that most trainers will not take on the liability to "rehabilitate" a dog with a bite history so that he is adoptable. And, with all the nice animals without bite history out there, why would someone want the risk to adopt a dog with this kind of history? 

Often people make it sound as if rescue had magicians volunteering for them that can fix anything. This is not the case. If the rescue is to take him back just to euthanize him (because the contract says that they will take him back), I think it is more humane that the owner euthanizes the animal. At least he won't die among strangers. I know what I am talking about. I took in an 8yo foster with a bite history and he stayed with me until the end of his life five years later because he was impossible to place. Would I do it again? Probably not, I do not need that liability. Very few rescues have volunteers and trainers able and willing to deal with these kinds of situations and dogs. 

The sad reality is that a dog without a bite history has many options, and one with a bite history has very little. His best chance is the owner working with the animal. It may sound harsh, but if the people who love the dog and are bonded with him don't want him, why would anyone else, a stranger do it?

It is a very sad situation for everyone involved. I understand it well. I was bitten several times by one foster (pretty badly), realized that he was not adoptable. I considered putting him to sleep but ended up letting him live out his life in my home. It got easier with time.

Wishing you all the best in this difficult situation.


----------



## RebelGSD

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

As to warning signals, sometimes they are subtle. I had a fear aggressive foster that would issue a barely audible warning or raise his lip a little. Most people would not notice his warning and get bitten.


----------



## Hatterasser

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

Earlier I wrote that Thor had bitten a neighbor in his knee with no warning.. no hackles, no growl, no nothing, from quiet sit to lunge. I have been working with him ever since. As the behaviorist stated, Thor is fear aggressive and suffers separation anxiety and needs a lot of socialization to make up for that first year of life when he had absolutely none. We have no idea what he went through that first year of his life, the time when should have been learning social skills.

Even though he wears a muzzle everywhere we go, before the muzzle was ordered by Health Dept., Thor's trainer suggested that we bring the neighbor to a training session and she would watch the interaction and see if she could correct anything she saw out of order. By the time we left that day, the neighbor was walking Thor and handing him treats. To this day, a few years later, Thor and neighbor meet frequently and there has never been any further problem. While we can debate what triggered the initial bite, but we'll never really know what was going on in his head. 

I debated putting Thor down at that time...in fact, it was considered the logical next step for me to make. But I love Thor and he loves me. He came to me needing all the love he never had. I could never rehome him, as I know what he did was totally wrong and I accept full responsibility for it...but I'd be afraid that someone else could experience the same problem. And, frankly, I would never recover if he had to be put down without me at his side.

Not being someone who had ever owned a dog with "issues", I probably made many errors when he first arrived, spoiling him, loving and cuddling him, not using NILIF (knew nothing about it), and most importantly, not socializing him enough...you name, every thing I probably did was wrong. I'm trying to correct my bad mothering, even if it means he has to wear a muzzle, even if it means I will do whatever I can to get him to a behaviorist when I can. Meanwhile, he'll stay with me. I'll probably still make mistakes but I'm trying. I don't want Thor put down.

But then, I live alone, with only Thor and Freya. I have no Todd in my life so that is a major consideration for you. I know Todd will recover from the physical wounds but he also needs help recovering from the emotional and psychological wounds. I tend to agree with others who have suggested that the two of them work together, at least until Todd has overcome his fears. And Chief needs to see a behaviorist until he too is cleared for what ever triggered his behavior. 

But then, what do I know? I've already admitted I knew nothing about dogs with issues. Still, I wish you all the luck in the world, that Todd recovers, that Chief's problems are resolved and doesn't have to be put to sleep. Because I do know one thing....how much one can love a dog, even not a perfect one.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Originally Posted By: GSDElsa
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: LilaI'm sorry if you thought I was lecturing.
> 
> My understanding and use of the word "foolhardy" is that it's a risky, bold and adventurous thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that is the definition of "foolhardy" I was thinking of. But, I don't really see being involved in rescue or rescuing a dog in need as being bold, advententurous, and risky thing to do.
> 
> But, no harm, no foul.
Click to expand...

Read Rebel's post. It depends on the kind of dogs you take, and sometimes you don't know what you're getting until you have them with you long enough. 

So that is bold (I can deal with this strange, unknown background animal no matter what they toss at me), adventurous (I am going to deal with the unknown) and risky (big powerful animal with who knows what triggers).


----------



## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

There are very valid points on both sides of the equation and it makes me so torn. I did bring up the thought of him working with Chief and he gave me a very definite "No." I know we cannot keep him here, but I personally want to fight for his right to live, but then there are the legalities and liabilities involved with re-homing him if another bite were to happen. I remember when I was a ghgsdr volunteer that a family had applied to adopt a very strong male GSD we had. They sounded excellent on paper and passed their references checks and home visit with flying colors. Well they got the dog home and the most irresponsible thing that could have happened, happened. They let the dog outside unleashed in the front yard to play. A neighbor kid came up and he bit the kid because he was being territorial/protective over his yard or family. Fortunately no lawsuits were filed but the owners were threatening to take the dog and have him euthanized. We got him back in our rescue and he was re-homed and has been doing wonderful ever since and there have been no such problems.

Val- About the collar thing, it now seems very clear that Chief has some issues with men handling him. I have grabbed Chief's collar at times and he would never think to put his teeth on me, he allowed me to move and direct him in any which way I pleased. There were many times when Todd leashed him up with no problem and grabbed his collar to make him move, but some of the times Chief would run and find me when Todd tried to handle him. BTW Todd has never been aggressive in his handling with Chief, he has never jerked him around or anything like that. Chief should have zero emotional trauma from Todd, this just has to be something deeply ingrained that happened early in his life.

There is one experienced person in the rescue I am trying to contact. I've seen her work with some pretty hard cases and she also used to train Schutzhund. I heard her last foster just got adopted.


----------



## WiscTiger

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I can understand Todd's reaction and I bet his face is pretty darn sore today. It would be tough for him to say sure dear no problem, I want to put myself in possible harms way again. Maybe give him a few more days.

But I think that some rescues come with some really bad things embedded in them. Some times it doesn't come out because the trigger isn't pushed. Not excusing what Chief did, but he reacted different than you have ever seen him do. Like I said it could have been the pressure or the angle of the pressure that triggered the muscle memory. The only way to deal with muscle memory is to reprogram it so to speak, pull on collar, no reaction HUGE treats and praise. But Todd is part of the trigger so it won't work with you doing it. 

Also don't just blow off that their might be something physical going on with him. A good check up, check tyyroid levels, do a tick panel screening, X rays to rule out the physical stuff.

I hope there can be some help for Chief.

Val


----------



## Wolfen

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I'm sorry for you and your boyfriend having to go through this.

Please offer this dog to an experienced handler/trainer who can rehabilitate him if needed, and bring him back to a stable way of being. He certainly doesn't deserve to die for what happened. 

Good luck!


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I came back to read the rest of this thread. You guys post when I am asleep over here so I miss a lot. 

It sounds like there is more to this than a simple case of possible resource gaurding or social climbing that some NILIF will fix. 

I don't know if Chief has some deep seated issues that are beyond you or not. I do know I would get him thoroughtly checked out medically. 

If there is nothing wrong with him you do have some tough decisions. Keeping him and working with him will be difficult for you and Todd. Letting him go will also be very hard. 

I wish you the best and support whatever decison you think is best. Hugs to you and Todd.


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## onyx'girl

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

I may have missed this, but where is Chief right now?


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## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

He is still with us. I didn't want to give him back to the rescue just yet because they would send him straight to boarding and I know that would greatly stress him out and confuse him. I'm going to take him into a vet soon to get a thyroid panel done. The rescue won't do it(again, a lot of info i can't disclose on the thread regarding them).


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## pupresq

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*



> Quote: Val- About the collar thing, it now seems very clear that Chief has some issues with men handling him. I have grabbed Chief's collar at times and he would never think to put his teeth on me, he allowed me to move and direct him in any which way I pleased. There were many times when Todd leashed him up with no problem and grabbed his collar to make him move, but some of the times Chief would run and find me when Todd tried to handle him. BTW Todd has never been aggressive in his handling with Chief, he has never jerked him around or anything like that. Chief should have zero emotional trauma from Todd, this just has to be something deeply ingrained that happened early in his life.


I haven't read the responses in the middle of this thread yet but just wanted to say that when we got Grace she had MAJOR issues with people grabbing her collar. Her previous owners had held her by the collar to hit her in the face to reprimand her. She would certainly have bitten us if we'd grabbed her collar at first and even later when we could grab her collar to leash her or something where she knew what was going on, we couldn't grab it if it was to move her or do something where she thought she was in trouble. Sort of sounds like that could have happened here. Chief may have thought Todd was getting ready to forcefully correct him for not obeying the command.

We were able to completely fix the problem using reconditioning and a tennis ball. If you end up deciding to work with him, let me know and I will pass along what we did.


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

One of the things I tell folks that ask me is if they have a dog that is "guarding " furniture or things: instead of grabbing a collar and having a confrontation (that you will lose), use a leash and a lure. keep the dog on the leash at all times and use a food lure to toss so the dog has to leave the item being guarded. You can also use a ball or other beloved toy as pupresq says. 

I don't even remember if I put that in my first post on this on page 1 of this thread. But it sounds as if you guys may just have some problems with trust with this dog and if you cannot get it back, best to return to rescue after vet and behavior assessment. If you decide to work things out with Chief (and I hope you do as I know you love him) I would certainly be very careful to keep faces away from his mouth and be 100% firm and consistent with him. Also add more exercise. Is Todd a runner? Or biker? Take Chief with and run him some.

I feel for you guys.


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## MustLoveGSDs

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*

It's just odd that he is completely comfortable with me grabbing him in any way, but won't let Todd at times. There has been times where I was dog/house sitting for clients and Todd was alone with the dogs, Chief would take to him and follow him around like he does with me and he allowed him to take him out and basically act like me with him. Also when I was working and Todd was home alone with him he was just fine listening to Todd. It's just that when I am in the picture when it involves anyone else, Chief only seems to want to respond to me. Chief also has zero toy or ball drive. He is not a driven or energetic dog at all. He does work for treats, but Todd has worked with him plenty and over the course of 9 months there is just no excuse for what happened. When I say this dog is low-key and laid-back, I mean it. He is happiest just lying around all day long.

Todd told me today that when Chief barked it reminded him of the bark he made when he lunged out at him and it just scares him now and reminds him of what happened. We won't be working with him. I am keeping Chief completely separated from Todd(per his request) until I find out where he is going or what will happen.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: BIG problem my boyfriend was bit in face by Ch*










I understand your choice is idfficult for you. But I do agree, people come first and if Todd cannot be comfortable with this then you must do what you must do.


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## ruhstorfer_family

I agree with everything they said here about him being the leader. keep in mind these dogs can easily kill or could have done worse but he didn't , which means he didn't intend major harm just a warning in his eyes but in ours a big No no.. Good luck. Keep us all updated


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## IliamnasQuest

Todd, I'm very sorry that you were bit like this. I hope you realize that this is NOT YOUR FAULT. Chief does not have a proper bite inhibition. I haven't missed the fact that, when you reached your arm out, Chief chose to go PAST your arm and bite your face. This is not simply a dog giving a warning - this is a dog that chose to lunge forward to your face, bite and bite hard. I hope you heal quickly and that this doesn't influence your feelings toward other dogs. And when your wounds heal a bit more, keep in mind that cocoa butter or shea butter, rubbed into the scar daily, will help reduce scarring (been there, done that).

I think it's completely reasonable for Todd to not want to live with Chief. I think there are two choices here - to find Chief another home, or to have him put down. I know, I know! That's a real unpopular thing to say, but there's a reality here and that's what Todd and his girlfriend are living with. A dog that chooses to bite that severely is dangerous, regardless of WHY he chooses to bite. Rehoming him is a huge risk, and he should only be rehomed to someone who understands fully the risk they're taking. Maybe this is a physical problem, pain or thyroid related. Maybe this is a behavioral problem that can be worked through to a certain extent. But I wouldn't expect Todd to do it. Heck, I've worked with hundreds of aggressive dogs (did behavior consultations and training classes for nearly 2 decades) and I wouldn't want to live with a dog that had chosen to bite me in the face when my hand and arm were closer!

This is not a really young dog, I believe. The behavior problem is probably very deeply rooted at this point. It will likely take years - and I seriously mean YEARS - of reprogramming to fix a behavioral problem like this, and I still wouldn't guarantee that he would be fully trustworthy. A person who takes on a dog like this will have to maintain NILIF and careful managing for the rest of the dog's life. In all honesty, reading through the description of what happened, I think this is likely to be purely behavioral. If it IS thyroid or a pain problem that can be managed, then that's actually good news. But I suspect that this is behavioral, and like I said deeply rooted. The one thing that makes me think it's potentially thyroid is that he's described as "low-key", "laid-back", "likes to lay around". Hypothyroidism can cause laziness.

If a person were going to deal with this behaviorally, the advice on NILIF and leadership is the way to go. I would push NILIF to the point where the dog gets nothing - and I mean NOTHING, not attention or food or access to the outdoors - without working for it. All food is fed by hand and each handful has to be earned by performing behaviors. Dog is exercised more than he is now regardless of his laziness - he needs to be more than exercised, he needs worn out. No treats except for working. Confinement except for working. Muzzled if anyone else is around. This is the kind of regimen a dog like this requires if you're going to have any luck in getting past this aggression. And yes, this IS aggression, regardless of the cause.

I feel for the OP and her boyfriend. They're in a difficult situation. But I learned a long time ago that there are some problems you just can't fix. And I also firmly believe that a dog that is really reactive (due to behavioral issues) is not generally a truly happy dog. If this dog had been less aggressive about his reaction I would say it could be worked out by the OP, but his aggression was well beyond what it needed to be in order to say "don't grab my collar!".

Just my opinion. Good luck to the OP and Todd. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Kayos and Havoc

One of the best posts on this thread Melanie.


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## SuzyE

I think it is absolutly ridiculous for you to even have this dog at your house-a foster dog? oh heck no-come get him. Even my client who fosters has had her house destroyed etc over a foster dog. NO WAY!!!!
Years ago when Jazmin was a very young dog, like 6 months, she bit my daughter in the face. My daughter was admittedly in her face but I don't care. When I saw that bite mark on her face I totally flipped out. Paige ,who didn't even do it, was really upset at the level of my anger. I smacked Jazmin YEAH I SMACKED HER SHE BIT MY KID IN THE FACE and threw her outside for the day. SHE IS A DOG DOG DOG DOG DOG and no one injures my daughter. I kept her because she was still a puppy but no one EVER forgot that scene at my house. I guarentee you that is one reason that Paige never bit anyone-she has a great memory.
as for grabbing your dog by the collar-what if the dog was licking antifreeze and you had to grab the collar? c'mon folks...Paige and Travis can be in the middle of a battle and when I put my hands on Paige it STOPS. 
If I were you I would let go of the responsibilty of Chief, kiss your dude and move on with your life.


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## Qyn

The OP is subordinate to this dog but will never admit it, so she will have no chance to rehab the dog despite all the wonderful advice she has received. She sees Chief as her protector but has set the dog up to be the boss in her household. I feel she is an unreliable adopter and has put both her dog and her BF in this situation.

Chief will probably be PTS now with this history and she is to blame for refusing to acknowledge her contribution. If the dog is as bonded to her as she says then she should have implemented training to correct this behaviour. That the dog was supposedly already trained does not excuse this lack of proactivity. The OP is very lucky that her BF is not pressing charges with the injuries he sustained. 

Why didn't the OP go with the BF to the clinic to see the extent of his injuries, if I was the BF the OP would be in a heap of manure.


----------



## SuzyE

humans over dogs. My feelings for chief would have shifted that moment, and yes if I was the one who got bit I would not be cool about it, I would want that dog OUT that day. I worked with a girl who was badly scarred as a child by the family's GSD. Badly- in the face. The father shot the dog on the spot just as I would have. that is NOT a pet.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Not defending the OP or the BF or Chief, but no one really knows what goes on in her home and in her relationship except her.

Fairly harsh criticism of a person you have never met and a situation you are only reading about.

While I don't condone running to PTS, I do not know if I could keep the dog in the house after a bit like that either. I think this is a hard decision for them to make and I don't think she is a novice at dog ownership either.

While I do not always agree with SuzyE, I do agree this is a dog and the dog seriously bit a human in the face, not the arm or hand reaching for the collar, the face. 

You may not agree with them or the decision they may make and I may not either but it is their decision.


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## JakodaCD OA

I have stayed out of this thread, but read it in it's entirety. 
I have alot of mixed feelings here, I put no blame on the people involved.

I do agree with Val's assessment of Chief. 

I feel bad for everyone involved, and being the "mush" I am, I feel really bad for Chief as well. If he's had 'men' problems in the past, who knows how that has affected him? Only he knows( 

I hope Chief can find a new home where his behaviors can be worked on..(


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## Kayos and Havoc

You know I had adopted a GSD many years ago, she was so needy and such a love with us, but she could not share her home. She attacked my old girl numerous times and I opted to return her for the sake of the old dog. Could I have re-habbed this dog? Maybe. I chose not to.

While not comparing dog/dog aggression issues or pack hierarchy issues with this incident, I have to ask just why we would give this dog any more latitude? No one will ever know what went on in Chief's brain, but if my hubby were bitten and felt he could no longer trust the dog, the dog would be leaving. People come before animals. If they were to rehab this dog both parties must be fully on board with it.


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## ebrannan

Melanie, your post hit it right on the head. 
My GSD, G, just came back from a month long, in-house training with our trainer. One of the biggest issues (beside his fear aggression) was that he had hyper-bonded to us. Without us realizing it, every time we patted his head, etc. we were reinforcing the behavior. 
Now that he is back home, the only time he receives attention is when he is working for it. Other than that, we simply bypass any hugs, pats, eye contact, etc. So far, so good. He still does have issue with one of the dogs here in the pack, and what someone else posted, "Sometimes the other dog is the instigator and they look totally innocent" holds completely true. As we reintroduced G back into the pack, we did it one by one, removing the dog after intro, and our trainer explained each and every one of the subtle signs, which we might have missed. 
Pauly had a lot of signs and there is an extreme tension between the two. Pauly is a personal rescue/foster and has been here the shortest time. He went to approved adopters once, but they were not in any kind of control and he took over. He's some kind of rotti mix, perhaps with aussi, or maybe chow, is a great boy, but not a pushover. 
I will be sending him to a three-week day training course with our trainer and will rehome again, once the perfect home come up. The course is for him to get the best chance ever to stay with his next forever family. 
Until then, we play crate, rotate, upstairs, downstairs. Fortunately, my son's bedroom is downstairs, our basset foster was adopted, so the space and company are ready, willing and able for him to excel, yet still be safe. 
G has other issues too, however, he is now able to have a stranger or strange dog stare him right in the eyes and he's okay with it. That is HUGE for him. 
It's all redirection at the key moment ... stranger walks up, treats are thrown on the floor to redirect him into a relaxed position - head down, tail relaxed, etc. By the time he looks up, stranger is conversing with me and the "walking up to" thread is over. It is simply amazing. Now, the stranger walking up has suddenly turned into a good relaxed thing with treats on the floor.








I do totally understand the OP wanting to rehome Chief. It will have to be the perfect placement though. 
I was blessed, just about the time that all G's issues were really overbearing, I finally received my back pay from SSD and from the VA. I was able to pay off and CLOSE most of the CCs and still have a bit of money left over. I invested it in training for G. And yes, it is an investment into both his and our future. 
Best wish to the OP and her boyfriend. You have some tough emotional stuff you are going through.


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## pupresq

My concern with threads like these is that there's always the temptation to treat the poster's description of what happened as fact and diagnose from there. But what the OP described, however honestly from her perspective, from the actual actions to the motivations etc. may or may not be what one of us would have seen or what a behaviorist might think. This is not a slam against the OP, simply an observation - things like this can be open to multiple interpretations (as we've seen on this thread) and one phrase or even word can be the reason people think what they do. And then based on that description we are recommending whether or not a dog should die. I cannot tell you how many times I've gone out to assess a dog, either for private obedience or at a shelter, and come away with a COMPLETELY different assessment than the one I would have had from the caller's description. One of the most frequent misconceptions I've run across is the dog that "doesn't respect" or "won't work for" the partner. What I usually find is one owner who gives the dog good and consistent feedback for his/her actions and one who doesn't. In those cases, it's not that the dog "doesn't respect" or thinks he's the boss of the owner, it's that the dog doesn't always understand what that person wants and finds him/her confusing. Humans often think that their requests are clear as day but from the dog's perspective they may not be.

And weird things happen. My son was once bitten in the face by a dog. He had a mark that is similar to the one on the upper part of Todd's face. He had to have stitches. It was very upsetting for all of us and I felt terrible for him. Anyone seeing the mark on his face might well have recommended we euthanize the dog. Had we had a faulty explanation of what happened, that might have been what we thought too. But what really happened was that he was throwing a stick for the dog, I was not paying close enough attention, he pulled the stick back up near his face in preparation to throw it, and the dog, who was a young and excitable dog jumped for it with an open mouth before my son released and caught him on the cheek. It was an accident. Did the dog deserve to die for that? Not IMO. But what if I hadn't seen what happened? What if I had described it as the dog wanted the stick and my son wouldn't let it go so the dog bit him and took it? Then we'd be thinking a dominance issue or something. 

I'm not saying Chief bit Todd by accident. That sounds highly unlikely given the situation, but we don't know exactly how the bite took place or why. To compound the situation, we have a situation where the OP was asleep and I'm assuming it was dark. 

Was it resource guarding? Fear aggression? A short fuse from a thyroid problem? Did the dog bypass the arm to go for the face or did he just wind up with a face in the confusion? Is what anyone is SURE happened really reliable in a traumatic event like that that happened so fast?

I applaud the OP for getting the medical stuff checked out and for having a behaviorist assess the dog. I think that's the right way to go. Any other speculation we make here is just that, speculation, and the life of a dog should not depend on it.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: KathyW but if my hubby were bitten and felt he could no longer trust the dog, the dog would be leaving. People come before animals.


 This is very true, Kathy, and I said right away that the dog will need to leave. I've experienced what it means when someone in a family resents a dog, it's a very sad situation for everyone involved, dog will never be happy in a home like this either... Unfortunately, It doesn't even matter if the dog is unstable or stable anymore..

I agree with pupresq too. We see the situation described through the prism of our own experiences, and comment based on that.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Yeah I see it both ways too. It would be a terrible decision to make. I thought about you in all of this too. Hope you are well! I need to email you.


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## MustLoveGSDs

I only wish this were a case of a stick-happy dog. I have tried to be as detailed as possible with our history with Chief and the incident. I have nothing to hide, who would want to hear some of these harsh criticisms and judgments against them willfully? I have no problem with admitting the mistakes that were made, 

to the subordinate comment..yeah my ego and pride isn't that almighty, obviously chief was running the show regardless of how solid of a handle I thought I had on the situation.

If anyone went to evaluate Chief they would find a happy, calm, observant, and nice dog. He has attended many rescue and social events with me and everyone who meets him loves him. The behaviorism issue likely won't arise unless he is put in the right situation.

I have been at work all morning and Todd texted me saying Chief really needs to go so I will have to arrange something with the rescue as soon as my shift Is over. They did tell me a man who volunteers is a professional dog trainer and he will evaluate chief. I still want to get the thyroid panel done just for peace of mind and to make me feel a little less guilty about everything so hopefully the rescue will allow me to do so, though once I sign the surrender form I am stripped of all rights.,,hopefully they can put business aside and think about the dog for a second. 

I have been at work all morning


----------



## Snickelfritz




----------



## G-burg

I have nothing really to add.. (well I could but it isn't necessary) I just want to wish you all the best in your decisions and I know you will do what's right for everyone involved! 

Stay strong and keep your head held high!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

As much as I am dogcentric, if you aren't comfortable with the behaviors, it's no good for anyone. Important learning experience, and I know dogs who are not a match for me. I see them and think, whoa...but their foster or owner loves them! 

And we may be comfortable with the odd behaviors from one dog, but not another. 

When the match is an inconvenience - the dog is smarter than we want, faster, smaller, whatever, then I say shut up and learn what the dog is trying to teach you. But when it has crossed over into an area where you just can't be you and they can't be them, then you need to evaluate like now. 

That said, I think that there is someone out there who can work with almost any dog, with almost any issue. And it always amazes me when a dog that I think is just...out there...finds a happy home with someone who totally gets them. And behaviors melt away. 

I also realize that there are dogs who consistently show that you cannot contain their animal or people aggression and who you can never make a mistake with, who may not be able to find such a place. 

I think Chief sounds like that dog who has a match. I appreciate you getting that thyroid test for him, and working to find someone to give him the chance at a match.


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## GSDElsa

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANAs much as I am dogcentric, if you aren't comfortable with the behaviors, it's no good for anyone. Important learning experience, and I know dogs who are not a match for me. I see them and think, whoa...but their foster or owner loves them!


I think that's what's important to remember. You can be the best, most experienced foster and the bottom line is that you might just one day run across a dog that you cannot click with or get through to, no matter what. The next person that comes along could have a totally different experience. 

Everyone makes mistakes in the way they handle their dogs--even those with a lot of experience. It's part of human nature.


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## AndreaG

just wanted to tell you that if that happened in our house, I would probably be taking Chief to be put to sleep. As horrible as it is...


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## SuzyE

You are a saint for fostering him and dealing with this. There are many many dogs behind chief that won't be a liability for you to foster. You just can never put your family/pets at risk for a foster. I have a client who fosters and you cannot save them all, you can't. You also can't get TOO attached to the foster pets, even the coolest ones! Move on with your life. I am sorry for chief but I am actually more sorry for your guy. I remember a client brought home a dog from the pound that the pound wanted put to sleep. Later it attacked and almost killed her nice Rottie and bit me. I told her to wake up to the fact the dog was too much for her. She didn't listen, the dog killed a neighbor's dog. It is NOT a rescue if it turns into a liabilty for you, nor is it a pet.


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## GSD07

SuzyE, I wonder why did you choose to work with Paige and didn't put her down and move on with your life? So many times you mentioned that she was people aggressive and would bite if not prevented from doing that? 

OP adopted Chief and had him for over a year, as I understand. He's not just a foster brought home a week ago, he's a dog she committed to provide him a forever home. A year ago he could be adopted by many other people, now he doesn't have such options anymore. But hey, there are many other dogs...


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## RebelGSD

If I understand this correctly, the OP has adopted Chief and he has been in the family for year or so. He may have started out as a foster but now Chief is their dog. 

The other pup in the home is a foster.


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## SuzyE

Paige never showed any aggression to our family-ever. She is a very stranger aggressive dog. I chose to work with paige because I wanted her to have a life outside of our house. I wanted her to be able to go camping, to dog events etc. which she does. I have to decline when people ask to pet Paige because she hates it. I could have just kept her at home but I trained her so she could go outside the house.
I have stated many times-I love Paige BUT if she bit me in the face then it would be game over. however i would bet everything I own that Paige (now 11)would never injure myself or my daughter.
So there was never any need to put Paige to sleep because she has NEVER bit anyone.In one of my post I mentioned that Jazmin bit my kid when jazmin was about 6 months. An isolated incident, jazmin went on to become a rather infamous therapy dog.


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## SuzyE

PS If Paige ever did bite anyone it would CLEARLY BE MY FAULT so that's why she went through advanced training. In this thread we are talking about a dog that bit it's caretaker in the face. I just couldn't love a dog that sends me to the ER. If some of you can then maybe apply to adopt chief and handle it yourselves.


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## shilohsmom

I just wanted to add a thought here. Does anyone else find it odd that when these dogs are young, and sometimes when they are older we are thrilled when they decide to protect us from whatever it is we likely don't need protection from in the first place. I see posts like this all the time from proud owners. We think it's cute that our dogs would defend us and I'm sure we encourage this. But then when the dog does bite for whatever reason that we don't want then the dog is the one that suffers, is put down, rehomed, etc.


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## RebelGSD

I cringe every time I hear or read people wanting or bragging about their dog protecting them. One misplaced act of "protection" in real life can mean a death sentence for the dog. Be careful what you wish for.


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## SuzyE

yeah they most definetly don't need encouragement. If anything Paige needs to clock out of watch dogville once in awhile.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: SuzyE So there was never any need to put Paige to sleep because she has NEVER bit anyone.


 Chief also hasn't bit anyone until he landed in this family and lived here for a year. Why wasn't he put through any training like Paige was? Why no rules were enforced? Why pack dynamics was overlooked when a new dog was brought into the house? Why a dog language was overlooked before the bite? When a dog told to get off the bed crawls and hides behind his mom maybe it's not a good idea to reach over to grab him? Why no drag line in the house when the dog doesn't obey commands after the first time? Why wasn't the dog provided with any real exercise? 

There are many questions that need to be addressed without any emotions and taken under account when dealing with the newest foster pup. I am so afraid that the story may repeat itself for the third time.

PS You know this video. This dog didn't growl either, and he didn't bite the hands that were so close. And the guy was petting him showing affection and adoration. I wonder if this dog was put down as well. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDcZ3f_f1I


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: SuzyE So there was never any need to put Paige to sleep because she has NEVER bit anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Chief also hasn't bit anyone until he landed in this family and lived here for a year. Why wasn't he put through any training like Paige was? Why no rules were enforced? Why pack dynamics was overlooked when a new dog was brought into the house? Why a dog language was overlooked before the bite? When a dog told to get off the bed crawls and hides behind his mom maybe it's not a good idea to reach over to grab him? Why no drag line in the house when the dog doesn't obey commands after the first time? Why wasn't the dog provided with any real exercise?
> 
> There are many questions that need to be addressed without any emotions and taken under account when dealing with the newest foster pup. I am so afraid that the story may repeat itself for the third time.
> 
> PS You know this video. This dog didn't growl either, and he didn't bite the hands that were so close. And the guy was petting him showing affection and adoration. I wonder if this dog was put down as well.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDcZ3f_f1I
Click to expand...


UM excuse me. You didnt live with the dog, you dont know about the excersise routine, the dogs behavior etc.
Dont make such a statement.
Stop judging people.


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## Lila

Excuse me, Angel...

But, *Yes, we do know somethings.*

The OP has stated that Todd reached for the collar and Chief lunged *OVER* her. That tell me the positions of the dog and the people. She said that there was no warning but has said things that sounds like there was. She said that Chief is a mellow, lay around dog. That tells us that he's not getting a lot of exercise. 

The original post is made in the wee hours. Check the time.That tells us that it was night and Todd had just returned home from a swing shift. It was dark. The original post tells us that Todd and Chief weren't as close as they should probably have been. Chief tended to avoid Todd when called and would run to the OP. The OP says that she realizes that the dog had bonded strongly to her and was her protector. 

All of this information is *in the OP's posts*. It's all we have. It may not be factual but it's what we were told happened.

Do *you* have an opinion? Then it's your judgment. You're judging too. You just don't want to say so.

I sympathize with the OP and her BF. I also sympathize with Chief. Granted that Todd paid A price but I believe that mistakes were made and that Chief will likely pay the ultimate price.

Just my opinion, Angel.


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: LilaExcuse me, Angel...
> 
> But, *Yes, we do know somethings.*
> 
> The OP has stated that Todd reached for the collar and Chief lunged *OVER* her. That tell me the positions of the dog and the people. She said that there was no warning but has said things that sounds like there was. She said that Chief is a mellow, lay around dog. That tells us that he's not getting a lot of exercise.
> 
> The original post is made in the wee hours. Check the time.That tells us that it was night and Todd had just returned home from a swing shift. It was dark. The original post tells us that Todd and Chief weren't as close as they should probably have been. Chief tended to avoid Todd when called and would run to the OP. The OP says that she realizes that the dog had bonded strongly to her and was her protector.
> 
> All of this information is *in the OP's posts*. It's all we have. It may not be factual but it's what we were told happened.
> 
> Do *you* have an opinion? Then it's your judgment. You're judging too. You just don't want to say so.
> 
> I sympathize with the OP and her BF. I also sympathize with Chief. Granted that Todd paid A price but I believe that mistakes were made and that Chief will likely pay the ultimate price.
> 
> Just my opinion, Angel.


Im not judging that this girl wasnt excerisering her dog & should have seen warning signs.
Im on the same side you are on.....read more carefully

The dog could just be lazy. I know ALOT of lazy shepherds.
Im sorry that the dog has to pay the price, but who will be next God forbid? 
A child?
A grandmother?
Maybe the dog should be put in a 1 person home.


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## Lila

It's not a matter of sides, Angel.

It's a tragedy that *probably* could have been avoided. 

Chief is a beautiful, intelligent animal. One mistake (his or someone else's) and he's in danger of losing his life.

To me that's tragic.


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: LilaIt's not a matter of sides, Angel.
> 
> It's a tragedy that *probably* could have been avoided.
> 
> Chief is a beautiful, intelligent animal. One mistake (his or someone else's) and he's in danger of losing his life.
> 
> To me that's tragic.


Of course its tragic. Im not saying its not.
Maybe it could have been avioded. But like I said...who would it be if it wasnt Todd???
I am truly sorry about this dog.


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## Lila

If properly dealt with it might have been no one at all.

Signs were there and signs were missed.

GSDs can be like a loaded gun lying around if not properly trained and conditioned. I think they WE, owners of this breed, are under more pressure than owners of most other breeds, because of the nature of the breed. We want their "*Loyalty, Intelligence, Strength*" and it requires our participation and understanding and vigilance. 

We, on this board and through over venues, can share experience and knowledge... We can ignore that at our own and our pet's peril.


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: Lila\ I think they WE, owners of this breed, are under more pressure than owners of most other breeds, because of the nature of the breed. We want their "*Loyalty, Intelligence, Strength*" and it requires our participation and understanding and vigilance.
> 
> We, on this board and through over venues, can share experience and knowledge... We can ignore that at our own and our pet's peril.


I somewhat agree.
Some dogs are poorly bred & will NEVER have these attributes.
Sometimes its not just the owners fault, sometimes its a combo of poor temperment & training.
Sometimes, its just the dog....
But again, I dont know the dog or the family who raised him.


----------



## shilohsmom

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: SuzyE So there was never any need to put Paige to sleep because she has NEVER bit anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> Chief also hasn't bit anyone until he landed in this family and lived here for a year. Why wasn't he put through any training like Paige was? Why no rules were enforced? Why pack dynamics was overlooked when a new dog was brought into the house? Why a dog language was overlooked before the bite? When a dog told to get off the bed crawls and hides behind his mom maybe it's not a good idea to reach over to grab him? Why no drag line in the house when the dog doesn't obey commands after the first time? Why wasn't the dog provided with any real exercise?
> 
> There are many questions that need to be addressed without any emotions and taken under account when dealing with the newest foster pup. I am so afraid that the story may repeat itself for the third time.
> 
> PS You know this video. This dog didn't growl either, and he didn't bite the hands that were so close. And the guy was petting him showing affection and adoration. I wonder if this dog was put down as well.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDcZ3f_f1I
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more, especially the point you made about dealing with this without emontions, etc. Well said. 

Unless we question our behavior we're bound to repeat the same mistakes and learn nothing while doing so. SuzyE and Paige are a great example of how dogs can be worked with, managed and retrained. 

The majority of these dogs want nothing less than to please us. Our misguided signals of wanting to be protected are being heard loud and clear by our dogs. Unfortunately, they are not being trained property in order to understand what their roles really are. And, yes, the dog often pays the price with their life when the issue should have been resolved long ago.


----------



## shilohsmom

> Originally Posted By: LilaIt's not a matter of sides, Angel.
> 
> It's a tragedy that *probably* could have been avoided.
> 
> Chief is a beautiful, intelligent animal. One mistake (his or someone else's) and he's in danger of losing his life.
> 
> To me that's tragic.


Well said.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:The majority of these dogs want nothing less than to please us. Our misguided signals of wanting to be protected are being heard loud and clear by our dogs. Unfortunately, they are not being trained property in order to understand what their roles really are. And, yes, the dog often pays the price with their life when the issue should have been resolved long ago.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Many opinions on this. 

But I think the bottom line really is this: Todd wants Chief gone. I am happy the OP did not PTS, she is returnng to rescue where perhaps Chief will have another chance. 

Some dogs just are not a good match, many of us have had a dog that just did not fit. While many of us would suck it up and help the dog not everyone is capable of that and most have family considerations to think of. 

Although it would be painful, if my hubby could no longer deal with the dog's issues than the dog would have to go.

I believe the decison has been made for Chief and whether I agree or disagree, I wish them the best. This will bother them for a long time and it surely was not a decision that was made lightly.


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## selzer

I think we should all remember that hindsight is 20/20. 

My dogs lie on the bed and go on the couch and I like it that way. I do not practice NILIF, and never had. Unless there is a problem, it will stay that way. If I did do NILIF with Frodo, maybe I could have prevented the final problem, but maybe not. I was doing a lot of things with him, leadership things, that I do not do with my current dogs, but to no avail. 

I think there is a tendency when you rescue or foster a dog to make some allowances for the dog because it had a crappy start in life. Maybe this dog wasn't clamped down on because most of the previous issues were not viewed as serious. Sometimes it takes a major issue for us to realize the magnitude of the problem.

I had taken the pup to the vet for some socialization yesterday, for people to give her hot dogs. I was taking her out and there was a couple with a three month old lab there. The guy told me he had had a shep. Now he is doing labs. Well, I put the pup in the car, and brought Babs out for a weigh in. As she pottied before we got into the building, I got out my poop bag and cleaned it up, and was walking it to the dumpster, and Babs was not 100% obedience walking when the woman comes out. She smiled at Babs, and Babs started to go toward her to sniff, when I realized she was not comfortable with Babs coming up to her. 

I immediately had Babs heel, and told her that Babs is a show dog and is not going to attack. 

She relayed the following account:

She had a GSD. And it went for her daughters throat and got her bad in the chest. I asked how old her daughter was, and she said 19. She said it was their own dog, but they got it as an adult. They rescued it. They will only do puppies now. 

Unfortunately, she also told me that the 12 week old lab pup snarls at her when she tries to take something from him. 

Dogs like Cheif, well they do not improve the general perception of the breed, or of rescuing dogs. How do we KNOW that this dog was not in a rescue in the first place because he bit someone, someone who said it was their own dog, and so the dog did not have a bite history. 

How do we know that this dog will not go back into rescue and bite someone else. 

How many bites does a single dog have to contribute to the GSD bite statistics before people are willing to do what needs to be done for the dog. I think if you have a dog that bites, then it should not go back to a rescue. I am a little disconcerted that the dog's bite was not counted, and he was not given a bite history. If the dog's owners are leery of the dog, then they should put the dog down. 

Rescue resources should be for dogs that can be adopted out with a decent chance for success. 

The secrecy here is kind of troublesome too. Perhaps there is a reason the rescue does not want anyone to know they are going to take this dog back. Maybe placing a dog with a known bite history can really get them in trouble. So how do we know that they will disclose to the next foster or adopter that this dog HAS a bite history? 

Breed bans, homeowners insurance rates, Breed reputation and discrimination -- that is what putting this dog back into the system is likely to affect. 

MustloveGSDs, I am sorry that this is happening to your dog, and that it also happened to a pit bull that you had. I am afraid that the shelter/rescue that you are dealing with is not necessarily being up front with you. And maybe these dogs, the pit and this shep needed a different kind of leadership. 

But at this point, this dog WILL bite people.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: GSD07......Why a dog language was overlooked before the bite? When a dog told to get off the bed crawls and hides behind his mom maybe it's not a good idea to reach over to grab him? .....


Just this alone, would have made a huge difference here.


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## Sashmom

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: GSD07......Why a dog language was overlooked before the bite? When a dog told to get off the bed crawls and hides behind his mom maybe it's not a good idea to reach over to grab him? .....
> 
> 
> 
> Just this alone, would have made a huge difference here.
Click to expand...

I am not blaming you or Todd, you both sound like nice people......
but yes, he shouldve left him alone. 
I see it as a fear bite, I lived with a fear aggressive dogs nd there were just certain things I learned. I think they see things in a different light and they have the "I will get you before you get me" attitude. 
He may never bite again as long as he isnt backed into a corner....
the main thing is he gets evaluated I guess. 
Some GSDls IMO do bond very close to just one person and just tolerate other people. Mine was like this. I really believe I was the only person he felt safe with. He had so many good qualities there was no question of having him PTS. We just made alot of adjustments. He nailed my DH on his hand 3X. He never went for his face though, that seems so unusual.....he couldve grabbed Todds hand. This is what puzzles me. 
Good luck to you and Todd and Chief, hope things can be settled. this is very upsetting for you I am sure.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Good points Selzer.

When I had adopted Max from the animal shelter I did exactly as you stated- gave him a break because of the crappy lot in life he had previously. But that is the worst thing you can do. Dogs live in the now and although Max was formed by his early experianeces he did not equate them with me. What he equated with me was a sappy "leader". As a rescue who has been bounced around a bit the dog craves structure to give it security. 

I should not have molly coddled Max I should have started with NILIF immediately. Thank goodness Max was never human aggressive although he did growl at a few men. It took me about 2 years with him to figure out I needed to step up.

I am in no way saying this is what happened with Chief but I am posting that for learning purposes for those that would consider rescue. 

No one says be harsh or forceful, but do use some learn to earn and hold the dog accountable from day one.


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## RebelGSD

My forever foster Mickey (had him for 4.5 years and he died of old age, loving memory section) was beaten on the head, with hand and leash and stick (he lunged at a stick that was a yard from him during obedience exercises 3 years after coming to me). He lunged, and did not go after the hand, he nipped on whatever object got in his way, jacket, stick or human. 

My explanation is that the dog is so intenesely tense in this situation that all his muscles trigger when the dog feels threatened or cornered, and it is a lunge. He lunged at me when he got off the transport and I reached towards his collar to clip the leash on him, I still have the small hole on my jacket chest high to show for it. Had my face been in that spot, there probaly would have been some damage. If he wanted to, he could have done some serious damage, but he did not. So I don't think it is unusual that the dog did not go for the hand, he got whatever was in the way. My vet pushed him to test him (he was muzzeld) and she heard a very quiet growl sitting right next to him on the floor. I have seen him slightly raise his lip too, I learned to watch for signs. 

I did a lot of training with him, but he was not trustworthy around strangers trying to pet his head (which people usually do) or reach for his collar. He was always muzzled around strangers, in obedience class (that he LOVED), and I never had a problem with him. Mickey felt much more comfortable around women and he did like some men who had a soft air around them (and fed him burgers). My neighbor turned into his best friend after feeding him 8 burgers, he never got sick from burgers. With his limitations he was a wonderful dog and a happy clown.


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## MustLoveGSDs

I think the reason Todd didn't think anything of trying to move Chief to get up and go outside is because he's always been able to do it before with no problem. Yes, Chief would be stubborn some times(most of the times he could leash him up and get him out with no problem), but he would always give in and go). Take my husky for example, a complete p.i.t.a when it comes to her personal space when she finds a spot to curl up and we need her to move, if it is in the middle of the floor or we need to get her up and take her out for example. Well she IS going to move for me so even if she growls in refusal or gives me that look in her eye that says she is comfortable and not to bother her, her butt will me moved out of the way. I've had her for 3 years since a puppy, I know her personality and tendencies like the back of my hand. I can read her like a book. She is just a very vocal dog and I am not going to be scared of her. 


The rescue will give full disclosure about the bite to any interested adopters. That HAS to happen for obvious reasons. This is just a unique situation. He is not an aggressive dog in anyway, he just has a certain issue. He is a very handsome and healthy looking dog, he will not just go to the first interested person.

Being involved in rescue, yes I see a lot of really sad cases..however, I do not feel sorry for new dogs I bring into my home. I understand that that is the first and biggest mistake I could make. Regardless of their stories, they are DOGS. I have seen fellow rescuer friends treat their dogs like that and their dogs easily take control of the household. As I have stated and stated, the minute a dog enters my home, NILIF and strict boundaries/rules are set up. I was the same way with Chief. This poor Doberman probably thinks I'm the meanest mom in the world, however I can see how he is making progress and he is listening to me and obeying me VERY well.


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## MustLoveGSDs

We adopted our pit bull directly from the shelter, it was a big gamble. Especially after this incident I realize that when it comes to personal dogs I will own in the future, I will either go with a puppy from a reputable breeder or a dog in rescue whose story and history is known so I know what I can expect.


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: LilaExcuse me, Angel...
> 
> But, *Yes, we do know somethings.*
> 
> 
> The original post is made in the wee hours. Check the time.That tells us that it was night and Todd had just returned home from a swing shift. It was dark.


Really? According to the time I have set, and that is 1 hour off of Houston time, it was 8:15am my time making it 7:15am in Houston when she posted. It's daylight at 7:15am.

I don't think the time of day has a single thing to do with it. It could have been 2pm and she might have been taking a nap.


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## pupresq

In my post I was trying to point out the lenses with which people can see things and the descriptions that come out of that. However honest the person thinks they're being (and I fully believe you're trying to tell this story as accurately as you can) they, as GSD07 so poetically stated, see the event through the prism of their own experience - and I'll add to that "beliefs."

You are using certain language to describe these interactions because of what you believe was the root of what happened. Things like "stubborn" and "give in" and you've talked about how "protective" he is. Those are subjective ideas that create an impression.

To me, and like everyone here, I don't know - I'm only basing this on what has been said and my personal experiences with dogs (the prism of MY own experience), I'm going to have to agree with the people who say that the root was a fear bite because Todd went for his collar and pushed him even after he attempted to retreat behind you. Nothing else about this dog that you've stated reads as dominant, especially not the fact that he's showing what sounds much more like fearful defensiveness than protectiveness and has SA. He sounds like an insecure dog, or a dog that is basically happy and well-balanced but gets insecure in certain situations. He trusts you and so you are the person he goes to, hides behind, etc. 

People have talked about the difference between a dog that would bite a family member and a dog that would bite strangers. I'd like to point out that Chief didn't bite the OP. He bit a man who was pushing him past where he was comfortable and was essentially cornered. We, as humans, read our own info into that - Todd is a nice guy, Todd has been around Chief for a year, Chief should have trusted Todd, but it appears from the other information posted that Chief did NOT fully trust Todd, even before this incident. Which may have nothing to do with Todd and everything to do with Chief's feelings about men versus women or felt like he could read the OP better than Todd, or different levels of comfort and vibes that people were giving off or any number of things. 

In terms of where you go from there, that's obviously a personal decision and one that it sounds like you have made. 

In terms of future dogs, there are things you can do to stack the deck in your favor and there are some dogs out there that won't bite no matter how sorely provoked. I had a Golden like that. But all dogs have teeth and most dogs will bite at some point, it's just their threshold for doing so will vary. I see it as a continuum rather than a large black line with "biters" on one side and "non biters" on the other. A dog brings his own genetics and experiences to the table and then there are things we do as handlers that also move dogs up or down the continuum. And I'm not really saying all this to the OP. I guess I'm saying it because I read so many posts and emails from people who want a dog who "won't bite" or would immediately rehome a dog that bit them. I don't think bites are trivial and I fully recognize the capacity for a dog to do serious damage to someone, particularly a child, but when it comes to intent, I think we as humans imbue bites with very different meanings that what they actually had for the dog. From the dog's perspective, I see a bite as analogous to a human hitting or striking someone. They are lashing out in fear or in anger or in dominance but they aren't necessarily intending to do great harm. When a dog does a quick strike bite to another dog, there's usually very little damage. Dogs don't understand about our lack of hair and thin skin. And like people, dogs sometimes make mistakes - errors in judgment or poor decisions. I don't know about the rest of you but I have lashed out in fear or anger when I shouldn't have and as a human, I, at least theoretically, have a greater capacity to consider the consequences of my actions than a dog does. 

Both animals and other people have the capacity to hurt us. Look at horses - a horse can kick someone and kills them in one blow, a horse can easily injure a dog that is annoying them, but for a horse, a kick is just part of their behavioral repertoire. They might kick to kill or wound or they might just do it because someone was aggravating them and ignoring their behaviorally appropriate cues to knock it off. 

So where does that leave us? Clearly people need to make the decisions they are comfortable with and can live with. People need to find a level where they feel the risk is acceptable and the personalities of dogs and humans mesh in a way they can deal with. I guess I just get troubled by the way we're often tempted to think of dogs in binary terms - dogs that bite and those that don't, dogs we can trust and dogs we can't, dogs that are dangerous and those that aren't. Certainly dogs vary on the continuum but they can also move up and down it depending on their training and experiences, for better or worse.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Pupres your post makes a lot of sense and it is a great perspective. I would personally not write off a dog that bites(unless it was an extremely traumatizing experience and the dog just outright had the intent to do some serious damage to me). I know that dogs do not have hands and that they do most of their communicating with their mouth. 99% of the time the reason a dog bites a human is because of human error. IE: "fluffy bit my hand when I tried to pet him while eating or tried to reach my hand near his bowl, better get rid of that vicious unstable dog!" absolutely ridiculous and frustrating as a rescuer who sees that all the time. When my husky was spayed she was definitely not herself and by reading her body language, was in a lot of pain. She wanted to lie in her crate all day. She had a toy in het crate with her that I reached in to take out and she bit my hand. Totally justifiable on her part because she was in pain and apparently didn't want me anywhere near her. She had never resource guarded anything from me before that and never has after. Definitely my mistake and nothing to re-home my dog over. 

I am only 23, I do not have decades of dog ownership under my belt. Though I consider myself pretty dog-savvy, obviously I still have much to learn. There are so many things that will be changing with future dogs. Todd and I are being very aware of our actions and interactions with our dogs. I absolutely hate that this lesson had to come at the expense of my beloved Chief. I can't put into words the emotions I am feeling about what happened.


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## BowWowMeow

Pupresq,

Thanks for that excellent post. I absolutely agree that *all dogs have the potential to bite*. Some of the most dangerous dogs I've met were purchased as puppies and spent their entire lives with one family. Conversely two of the most rock solid dogs I have ever known have been two of my own, one who was adopted at 10 weeks and the other adopted at just over a year old.


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## Jax08

Excellent insight.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Ditto.


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## RebelGSD

Great post, as usual.

I also often see people associating bites and problem behaviors with rescue dogs, as opposed to dogs from good breeders not posing this issue. The truth is not that simple or black and white.

My forever foster with a bite history (adopted at 8yo and died at 12.5) was from excellent bloodlines

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/345921.html

He placed well at the Siger show at the age of 2. He was purchased by his current owner as a 2.5yo. He had numerous obedience titles, was very well behaved, a great dog (zero drive though). One day he nipped the delivery guy in the rear. He did break the skin, a report was never filed. The owners made an appointment for him to have him PTS. I tried to work and find a trainer for them, however, the wife was afraid of him and the responsibility.

I never had a problem with him. Initially I introduced him to new people outside of the home, but later it was not necessary. I wonder whether he sensed that he did not need to protect me.
He was a somewhat aloof, but very sweet dog and he went everywhere with me. I was wondering whether he sensed the insecurity of one of his owners, and whether that contributed to his behavior and to the bite.

Anyway, what I am trying to say that excellent breeding is not a guarantee, any dog can bite. I think working with a good trainer helps, as the a GOOD trainer can view subtle behavior cues that the owners may miss. And it builds self-confidence in the owner and dog. Unfortunately good trainers are not always easy to find. In my area I had a very hard time finding a trainer that would be willing to work with a bite case. I also had the impression that I knew more than they did about difficult dogs. Finding a good trainer is well worth of the time, money and effort. 

Not so long ago I fostered a gorgeous young male surrendered to the rescue by a police officer. The owner used to discipline the dog by holding him by the collar and the poor pup would freak out if strangers tried to grab his collar. He made a pretty terrible sound and lunged as if he would bite (he didn't). It took sime time and effort to desensitize him. pupresq knows the guy. Chief's behavior is not really that unusual


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## MustLoveGSDs

Of course there is no guarantee with a puppy from a breeder but like with health problems, you have a better grasp and knowledge of what to be prepared for than adopting a shelter/rescue dog whose history is unknown. Like with my husky, it's comforting to know that I was her first experience with everything, socialization and the world. I know for a fact what she has experienced, been through, how she will act and react, and I know that she has never been mistreated or seen a bad day in her life. It's a bigger gamble with a dog of unknown history.


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## Lila

A quick question about the "Time" on the posts.

It's 6:57 AM here and the most recent post in "Active Topics" says it's 9:57 AM. Why is that? Is there a place where I can make this say my own time locally or is it set to some other place's time by default?

Thanks


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## Jax08

Yes. go to My Stuff and you can set it in your profile.


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## Lila

Found it. Michelle. Thanks. It defaults to Server Time minus 2 hours. I needed minus 5.

That will help me keep my facts straight.

Aloha


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## GSD07

Very nice posts above! MustLoveGSD, I know you'll learn your lesson, we all do sooner or later, and I wish you luck. The only thing that still bothers me is that even your husky that you raised from a puppy growls in refusal when you ask her to move...


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## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: GSD07...The only thing that still bothers me is that even your husky that you raised from a puppy growls in refusal when you ask her to move...





> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDs...
> I know that dogs do not have hands and that they do most of their communicating with their mouth. 99% of the time the reason a dog bites a human is because of human error. IE: "fluffy bit my hand when I tried to pet him while eating or tried to reach my hand near his bowl, better get rid of that vicious unstable dog!" absolutely ridiculous and frustrating as a rescuer who sees that all the time. When my husky was spayed she was definitely not herself and by reading her body language, was in a lot of pain. She wanted to lie in her crate all day. She had a toy in het crate with her that I reached in to take out and she bit my hand. Totally justifiable on her part because she was in pain and apparently didn't want me anywhere near her. She had never resource guarded anything from me before that and never has after. Definitely my mistake and nothing to re-home my dog over.
> ...


I'm really sorry all this has happened to you and Todd ... that's a nasty bite.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm definitely no expert in canine behavior, but IMHO you aren't doing yourself, or your dogs, any favors by making excuses for them biting or exhibiting other undesirable behavior.

I don't know, maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, but a dog should not bite when you want them to get off the bed. They should not bite when you pat them while they're eating, or if you put your hand near their food bowl, or if you take food away from them, or even if you reach into their mouths and remove food. They shouldn't bite if you reach into their crate and remove a toy even if they don't feel well. As far as I'm concerned, this type of behavior is totally unacceptable and should not be excused.


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## MustLoveGSDs

I've always read that dogs can act out aggressively if they are in pain or something is medically wrong, isn't that one of the reasons why many are suggesting I have Chief's thyroid checked? Like I said, that was completely out of character for Zelda and she was in very bad pain from the spay. She has never tried to put her teeth on me before(except when i first brought her home and she tried to resource guard her food) and she hasn't since that incident. She learned verrry early on that teeth on humans = extremely unacceptable. I can take toys, food, and bones from Zelda's mouth or anywhere near her with no problem. IMO I don't see how I am making an excuse for that one isolated bite, there was a very valid reason for why she snapped at me and I don't fault her one bit for that. Not trying to humanize dogs, but generally when people are in pretty bad pain they aren't all sunshine and rainbows.

GSD07, I can see your concern, however I know Zelda's quirks and behavior traits, I know her thresholds in certain situations. She is a siberian husky, she is a very grumbly and vocal dog in general. Heck, sometimes when I tell her to sit she likes to talk back before she follows the command. She vocalizes her opinion on a lot of things. I guess you'd have to live with her everyday to understand..I can see how it can easily be taken out of context over the internet when I am describing it. Each person is going to interpret things in their own way though.


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## Jax08

Coming from an owner of a dog with thyroid problems, and I am not a vet, trainer or behaviorialist...having a thyroid problem whacking out your chemical balance and making you aggressive is not the same thing as being grumpy because you are in pain. 

If Zelda had bitten you in the face would you still not fault her one bite? I think that is the point that is being made.


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## GSD07

One of my dogs was in a horrible pain from a dislocated hip, and she did not bite me or anyone who was helping her, even though she was a fear aggressive dog. It's the same dog that was going up the leash, and my hands still have scars from her teeth. I did not excuse my dog for biting and even in pain she knew that it's absolutely inappropriate thing to do. You think if your dog nails a vet you won't be held responsible?

I do not need to live with a husky to know what vocal dog means. Ask KathyW LOL I think you miss my point. Growling at you is not a quirk, crowding you is not a quirk, and no dog is an open book, and no dog is the same. You approached Chief the same as your husky, and GSDs (at least those that I know) don't like to take crap from anybody they consider weak and/or unfair. 

Please don't be defensive here, I'm just sharing my thoughts and you are right, the internet may distort a conversation a bit. I'm not so mean as I may sound sometimes


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## MustLoveGSDs

If Zelda had bitten me in the face then I would fault myself for sticking my face in hers or in close proximity.

GSD07, that is great that your dog is that stoic under pain, but every dog is different and from my time working at a vet clinic, I have seen some dogs with painful injuries let you do anything to them as your dog, and then others who clearly did not want to be messed with and would give warning growls/snarls to stay back. Generally people muzzle their dogs at the vet and during grooming when they know they may be reactive. I've never seen a vet hold the owner responsible for their dog being snippy. The dog just usually gets muzzled or sedated. I am sure vets see a lot of aggressive dogs on a daily basis.


I know Zelda's different vocalizations, when she is being stubborn and is comfortable in a spot she will growl, grumble, talk, throw a hissy fit basically. She is my drama queen. If she was seriously getting aggressive I would know it. I can pick her up or move her around with no problem, she just likes to talk back. I've read plenty of stories on forums about people's dogs being grumbly when they try and get them to move from a spot and they are not aggressive or trying to warn the owner..I've seen dogs in deep sleeps or who just want to rest ("let sleeping dogs lie" right?) and they sigh or get grumpy when they are asked to move. Sometimes they take a minute to get up, their vocalizations don't always mean they want to attack.


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## Lila

I'm with MustLoveGSD on this one.

I once had a beautiful lab that I'd found as a young abandoned hairless, sick and almost dead girl in the woods. I nursed her back to full health and her natural beauty and she was the most loving of dogs I've ever had. I had her for 8 years.

Due to an accident and an incompetent vet she died in my arms 6 hours after the vet had seen her for the second time in two days and had reassured me that she was healing fine.

She repeatedly bit my arms as she died.

Situations vary.


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## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsIf Zelda had bitten me in the face then I would fault myself for sticking my face in hers or in close proximity.


 Double standards here?

Ok







We are all different too, and shape our dogs differently, and tolerate different things, and do not tolerate different things. I do not tolerate being crowded, ignored and bitten by my dog in my house, and since I do not ask my dog to do something uncomfortable or unreasonable just to make him suffer, I expect him to listen to me. 

Anyway, good luck.


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## crs996

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsIf Zelda had bitten me in the face then I would fault myself for sticking my face in hers or in close proximity.


That is shocking to me, amazing how folks look at things differently.


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## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: GSD07The only thing that still bothers me is that even your husky that you raised from a puppy growls in refusal when you ask her to move...


me too. I haven't read all the posts but I saw that this morning and it really stuck in my head. 

Not exactly sure how to put this nicely...

You're letting Zelda behave like that. Chief is picking up on her vibe, has seen her treating you that way and thinks it's okay. Except something in his past has taught him a growl doesn't work, go straight to the bite.

It's bad. You had a pitbull put down for this. Zelda growls at you.

I hope you get Zelda straightened out before you add any more dogs to the mix.


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## SuzyE

If your dog bite you in the face you would consider it your fault. wow. you got your face to close to your dog. ok.
well, OP, I am personally really sorry that you are going through this anguish. I would encourage you to not beat yourself up about this and find a way to move on. Chief had issues long before he came into your family. Believe me, if I had not devoted my life to Paige she probably wouldn't have made it to age 11. I also got Paige as a puppy and a lot of her behavior was because my lack of discipline early on and it was my responsibility to correct it. good luck to you guys.


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## BuoyantDog

Wow. Interesting.


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## Kayos and Havoc

It has gotten that way hasn't it?


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## MustLoveGSDs

I think the best way for me to move on is to check out of this thread and this forum at this point otherwise this will be never ending, thanks for all the advice everyone.


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## BuoyantDog

Let this be a learning experience for the future. Please keep us posted on Chief (perhaps a new thread). I will look forward to hearing from you. I wish you the best, and you are in my thoughts. Sincerely, Christina


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## selzer

GCW. 

But for everyone reading this thread, I do not think anyone should consider it normal or acceptable for a dog to bite you in the face. We should not have to keep our faces away from our dogs or get bittten. 

I don't know about anyone else, but there is no place or part that is off limits for me with my dogs. If I want to check out the privates to see if one is in heat, if I let some strange man do a berry check on my boy, if I do toenails, if I want to remove something from my dog's mouth, I can hands down. It does not matter if the last time, I kept their prize, or if the last time, I nicked a quick and made them bleed. If I want to take their temperature, if I want to rub dry and weigh their newborn pup, I have that right. They can put their nose right in there and make sure the pup is fine, but I can handle every part of them, and their pups. It has to be that way. 

I have had all my dogs since they were pups or raised them myself, so any baggage they have is my baggage.

Most of my dogs will lick my face. I allow this. I allow them to jump up, but they must OFF when I tell them to. I am trying to make the jumping up only when I invite them -- they are not all quite there yet. 

However, Milla and Joy jump up and on occasion, I feel a tooth. This is NOT a bite. However, the game stops there, I tell them to be careful or gentle with Suzie's face. This is with absolutely zero aggression. 

Bites that happen when a dog is in a heightened emotional state, like they just got hit by a car, had an epileptic siezure, or are in the middle of a dog fight and not trying to eat human but the stupid human got in the way, these bites do not count in my book. I would hope that most medical conditions would lower the dog's bite threshold, but there would definitely be warnings prior to an actual bite, like a snarl, growl, snap, etc. 

So in this case if the Husky is growling when she whatever, the husky maybe needs to have a full check up, and if there is no medical condition that requires attention, then she needs to see a behaviorist.

This thread has been a bit of an eyeopener for me about rescued dogs, and the possible risk people are taking to rescue dogs. On the one hand, one would hope that people understand the risks and only agree to take a dog if they are willing to work through issues or put the dog down if it is necessary. On the other hand, we hope that no shep dies in a shelter just because there is no home for him, and this encorages people to rescue one, and more dogs, whether or not they are equiped to manage a serious behavior problem. While there may be no guarantee that if you get a pup at eight weeks it will not have any behavior problems, I think it would stack the deck in your favor.


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## onyx'girl

Absolutey true, Sue.
My first experience with fostering ended badly(for me), and I was to blame. 
The baggage they carry is just too much and it surfaces at the time that they are overwhelmed beyond their threshhold. If only they could talk(I know, body language, calming signals) but the past that the poor dogs endured can only help us understand their reasons. 
My foster didn't want to be handled by the collar either. I think he was a chained out dog, that was only given negative attention, dragged around by his collar to be reprimanded then hooked up to a chain. 
When he was able to escape the situation, he did. 
And was hard to catch in the beginning of our relationship. I let him loose in the fenced in back yard to get aquainted with the other dog, he wouldn't come near us, til I threw treats in the house with the slider opened as a lure. He was fearful of inside and felt more comfortable outside. Never saw a staircase, my daughter showed him how to go up/down.

I don't think one bite is a huge deal, they are communicating in the way they know, even when they know it may be inappropriate. A face bite is serious, and the choice Chief made where he bit tells us something.

Still, he doesn't deserve to die for it, IMO.


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## BuoyantDog

I don't think this thread was intended to dissuade people from rescuing dogs, but it looks like it is heading in that direction, and that is a shame. 

Maybe those of us who have rescued or adopted dogs can start a thread sharing our life long experiences with rescuing and adopting dogs that never bit us and were gentle and ended up with amazing titles and accomplishments under their paws. I'd like to hear from those who rescued or adopted a dog and never had a serious problem or injury, as this is likely more common.

I for one won't be checking this thread anymore, since it is heading in the wrong direction. My 2 cents has been cashed. I wish the best for the original poster and her BF, and please update us on Chief in a different thread.

May we remember the unspoken for rescue dogs who only did good and followed in their master's footsteps.

I'm out.


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## onyx'girl

It is about the dogs and having the resources to read them when they are most vulnerable. 
A qualified behaviorist is hard to find in my area, so we all do what we feel is best. The dogs future is much more important than an ego of someone who doesn't ever fail. 
The dogs all have their own stories to tell, if only we could hear them so we could help them







.


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: selzerGCW.
> 
> But for everyone reading this thread, I do not think anyone should consider it normal or acceptable for a dog to bite you in the face. We should not have to keep our faces away from our dogs or get bittten.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but there is no place or part that is off limits for me with my dogs. If I want to check out the privates to see if one is in heat, if I let some strange man do a berry check on my boy, if I do toenails, if I want to remove something from my dog's mouth, I can hands down. It does not matter if the last time, I kept their prize, or if the last time, I nicked a quick and made them bleed. If I want to take their temperature, if I want to rub dry and weigh their newborn pup, I have that right. They can put their nose right in there and make sure the pup is fine, but I can handle every part of them, and their pups. It has to be that way.
> 
> I have had all my dogs since they were pups or raised them myself, so any baggage they have is my baggage.
> 
> Most of my dogs will lick my face. I allow this. I allow them to jump up, but they must OFF when I tell them to. I am trying to make the jumping up only when I invite them -- they are not all quite there yet.
> 
> However, Milla and Joy jump up and on occasion, I feel a tooth. This is NOT a bite. However, the game stops there, I tell them to be careful or gentle with Suzie's face. This is with absolutely zero aggression.
> 
> Bites that happen when a dog is in a heightened emotional state, like they just got hit by a car, had an epileptic siezure, or are in the middle of a dog fight and not trying to eat human but the stupid human got in the way, these bites do not count in my book. I would hope that most medical conditions would lower the dog's bite threshold, but there would definitely be warnings prior to an actual bite, like a snarl, growl, snap, etc.
> 
> So in this case if the Husky is growling when she whatever, the husky maybe needs to have a full check up, and if there is no medical condition that requires attention, then she needs to see a behaviorist.
> 
> This thread has been a bit of an eyeopener for me about rescued dogs, and the possible risk people are taking to rescue dogs. On the one hand, one would hope that people understand the risks and only agree to take a dog if they are willing to work through issues or put the dog down if it is necessary. On the other hand, we hope that no shep dies in a shelter just because there is no home for him, and this encorages people to rescue one, and more dogs, whether or not they are equiped to manage a serious behavior problem. While there may be no guarantee that if you get a pup at eight weeks it will not have any behavior problems, I think it would stack the deck in your favor.


You always say it best selzer.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: selzerThis thread has been a bit of an eyeopener for me about rescued dogs, and the possible risk people are taking to rescue dogs. On the one hand, one would hope that people understand the risks and only agree to take a dog if they are willing to work through issues or put the dog down if it is necessary.


I think this is true regardless where the dog comes from. Unfortunately, as we've seen on the board, lots of problems with dogs that people get from breeders and get as pups. A lot of those "rescue" dogs are there because they were placed in a home as a pup by a breeder, and there were problems. So I really think that personal biases are coloring perspective here.

The issue is that folks don't understand dogs, they don't understand dog language. Dogs have their own emotional lives, even the ones placed in a home at 8 weeks.


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## BowWowMeow

^^ What she said. Basu had a known history, was purchased from a reputable breeder and was totally screwed up by his owner. Massie and Rafi were both strays and both had/have rock solid temperaments. Sue's dogs would be just as likely to bite were they raised improperly. As Pupresq so eloquently explained above, any dog has the potential to bite.


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## RebelGSD

Agreed.
This dog

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/345921.html

was bred by a well-known breeder, sold to another well-known breeder, and sold for thousands of dollars to the owner I got him from. I got him after a bite in his previous home, the owners refused to work with him. Being a well-bred dog and being raised by very experienced breeders and having had the best of care in the home before me did not prevent the bite. 

The reason he ended up in rescue was that none of the breeders wanted him back when the owners they sold him to could not handle him.


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## pupresq

> Quote:A lot of those "rescue" dogs are there because they were placed in a home as a pup by a breeder, and there were problems. So I really think that personal biases are coloring perspective here.
> 
> The issue is that folks don't understand dogs, they don't understand dog language. Dogs have their own emotional lives, even the ones placed in a home at 8 weeks.


Totally agree! The reason that several us in rescue are discussing dogs we've known with bite issues and how we handled them is because we've handled a LOT of dogs in our day, enough that we've encountered a wide variety of personalities (dogonalities?) and are sharing a slice of those experiences. And several of us on this board have taken in particularly difficult dogs - dogs that were from breeders and owned by their previous owners from puppyhood and then given up because of "aggression." That doesn't mean that all rescue dogs have baggage, it just means that some of us have handled dogs that did and who responded to it in different ways.

I don't think rescue dogs are more likely to bite than dogs obtained anywhere else. I have had many fosters and I have personally owned rescue dogs that I'll put up against the best bred dog out there from any breeder you want in terms of temperament and stability. But ANY dog can bite. That's the point. (and as an aside, the worst bite situation I've ever dealt with personally was with a dog that I had bought from a great breeder and owned since he was 12 weeks old. 

But I digrees, the point of my post (and I'm so gratified that several of you actually read the whole thing!







) was not to say that rescue dogs have baggage, may bite, or that biting is okay, it was to try and explain that all dogs can bite and that those bites can mean very different things to dogs than to people. 



> Quote:The issue is that folks don't understand dogs, they don't understand dog language. Dogs have their own emotional lives, even the ones placed in a home at 8 weeks.


Worth repeating.


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## SuzyE

I would think a rescue dog wouls be LESS likely to bite since every rescue/shelter I have ever dealt with screens the dogs so well. They even tested Travvy for food aggression at 6 weeks!
My clients whose dog sent them both to the hospital had that dog since it was 7 weeks old. Paige came stranger aggressive at the same age.
I definetly don't think this should deter anyone from rescue. Every so often something like this happens, sometimes dogs kill kids in their family, but these incidents compared to how many dogs are pets are quite rare!


----------



## GSDElsa

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> This thread has been a bit of an eyeopener for me about rescued dogs, and the possible risk people are taking to rescue dogs. On the one hand, one would hope that people understand the risks and only agree to take a dog if they are willing to work through issues or put the dog down if it is necessary. On the other hand, we hope that no shep dies in a shelter just because there is no home for him, and this encorages people to rescue one, and more dogs, whether or not they are equiped to manage a serious behavior problem. While there may be no guarantee that if you get a pup at eight weeks it will not have any behavior problems, I think it would stack the deck in your favor.


Oh, come on! You're getting THAT opinion from one thread? And all the other threads on here that deal with "dog aggression" from people who got their dogs from breeders? That very much seems like selective viewing to me. 

And as others have said...half the time the wonderfully bred dog ends up in rescue because at some point their owner doesn't want to deal with them anymore.......so here, rescue people, have fun! 

Take that 6 year old sable in the non-urget forum. That girl was form a breeder and has the classic working-line look. Owner decides they want big, scary dog to ward off evil people. When she's young, she's since and fun because she has so much drive and is so smart. But then they get bored...stop keeping her mind active. Suddenly, at 6 years old, she's "attacking" small dogs. So the dog becomes a rescue. She came from the right place...but thanks to an idiot not handling her well (and what does this say about the breeder??), she's not so desirable anymore. 

I'm still waiting for those statistics showing that rescue dogs are more likely to bite than dogs from breeders.


----------



## RebelGSD

Here is another thread about a well-bred dog (actually two, reading the thread in the Pedigree database, the first one being a puppy) being sold by a breeder (and trainer) to a person incapable of handling either of them and ending up in rescue.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1307124&page=7#Post1307124


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## pupresq

Exactly! Dogs like that sometimes end up in rescue, but they certainly don't represent the majority of dogs in rescue and rescues know when they've got them and proceed accordingly with placement. And when we get a dog who genuinely has a biting issue, we either put the dog down or keep it ourselves. So yes, WE incur some risks in doing what we do but our adopters do not, beyond the risks inherent in owning _any_ dog. 

Most dogs in rescue are there for reasons that have nothing to do with them and rescues really work hard to place the right dog with the right people.

Worth noting - while I've had only a small number of dogs who demonstrated a low threshold to bite, I've had _many_ dogs come through here who have had crappy lives, injuries, neglect, abuse, etc. and been so stable that they STILL haven't bitten people in spite of all that. So, in that sense, sometimes the dogs in rescue have been pre-selected as the LEAST likely to bite. For example, the last Pittie I placed had had her ear cut off and grew up with an ingrown collar and she was one of the least human-aggressive dogs I've ever fostered.


----------



## ebrannan

Another short note:
I have probably had at least 20 foster GSDs come through our home since 06 and all of my GSDs before then were rescues. ALL of them (fosters) were fantastic with the exception of two. 
Now on the other hand, my two current GSDs are from breeders and I have never had so many temperament and medical issues in my life. 
My big boy, G, has now gone through three levels of training with a fantastic trainer/behaviorist, with of total cost of almost $1300 to this point, and he will still always be a "work in progress." We've made great progress, but he will never be a "dog park/let strangers walk up and pet" dog. That's okay, I'm not real crazy about dog parks anyway.
I even remarked about this very thing to our trainer. 
And my young kidney failure girl ... well, I don't know if she would even still be alive if it weren't for us doing research and finding the best holistic diet for her. She quit eating the commercial kidney diets a year ago (even Royal Canin), but is thriving on green tripe. Go figure ...


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## onyxena

If one of my dogs bit us in the face it would be a done deal here. I really don't think there is any circumstane that would make such an incident forgiveable. Okay maybe if the dog was badly injured, not a sore paw or a headache, but maybe something serious, I could understand. All humans in my home feel totally safe with my dogs. Anyone should be able to remove any dog from any furniture, no question. My dogs are only allowed on furniture occasionaly if invited. They know they are never to come up on their own. If they are lying on the floor in an area where I walk through they are to move, no complaining, just go. They normally will lay off to the side and if I get up they will check to see if I need them to move. I consider this polite that they check, 
My daughter is four and I need her to be safe in her own home. The dogs know their boundaries and are always watched closely. I may be a bit overly firm with their rules, but better safe than sorry. It's not like they are treated poorly or abused, they just have strict rules. I personally feel that they live in my house, eat my food, crap in my yard, etc so they owe me the respect of deferring to me. Not the other way around
I do all this because I do not want to be in this position ever. I caannot imagine how heartbreaking and confusing this must be for all involved! I personally would not judge her one bit if she just had him put down immediately. That would likely be my couse of action. I would never want to put anyone else at risk with that kind of history. 
I also have 2 shelter dogs here. They are not given any special priveledges because they had a rough start. I know that Sasha had a very hard life before she came to the shelter, but she has been 100% wonderful from day one. Being a rescue certainly doesn't equate with irreversable emotional damage! They still need rules and a leader, not someone feeding them ice cream and feeling sad for them.
Best wishes on your very difficult decision.


----------



## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: GSDElsa
> 
> I'm still waiting for those statistics showing that rescue dogs are more likely to bite than dogs from breeders.


Are you serious?
I think its more of common sence that if I got an older dog with probelms from a shelter, that dog would be more likely to bite vs if I got an 8 week old pup & raised it my whole life.
BUT, I mean I cant really say that.
If I got a shelter dog & they told me "hey this dog gets mad when you clean its ears."
A SMART person would avoid cleaning the dogs ears, except with muzzle on the dog.
It also depends on the person too.
I can read my dogs body language very very well.
And maybe when people get a dog that they dont know, they aent sure of the body language?
If my dog looks stressed or angry, I immeditly remove him from a situation that may not be so good.

Im not bashing rescues, but I mean I dont think (personally) I could EVER interact with a shelter dog the way I interact with my dog.
I put my face in his face, and "bite" him.
I lay on him & can touch any part of him without him getting angry.
I litterally have my face in Kilos face half the day giving him kisses & itching his neck etc.
If he was an older dog, (AGAIN, I AM NOT BASHING rescues)
I dont think I would feel comfortable doing it.
Again, keep in mind, Im not talking about a few month old dog.
Im saying maybe 4 or older with a history of some problems.

The reason I did not get a rescue dog (was looking into it) is bc our bussiness is literally 3 feet from our home. I could not have an unpredicable dog running around free for fear it could bite someone.
You never know.
I am 100 per cent confident that my dog would never ever bite me.
(Im not so sure about our neighbors cat though :rofl: jk)
EVER.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

And this is a misconception, that dogs in shelters automatically come with problems. If they did, no one would ever adopt dogs from shelters, and rescues couldn't take any dogs from shelters either. 

A lot of the people on this board and thread, like pup said, tend to take in weird cases or dogs with problems because we like them. I don't like all problems, and pick the ones I do. But just because you are seeing these stories (like Annalise) doesn't mean that shelter dogs come like that all the time. 

I have gone and picked adult dogs up from shelters, tossed a burger in the backseat and off we have gone with no problems. I get the idea of liking to know the problems a dog has because you yourself had them as a puppy and have created them (me included in that you), but adult dogs are adopted out every day from shelters and rescues. The shelters in the south put to sleep a lot of dogs (A LOT) so the ones you generally get from the south, are pretty nice, or they wouldn't have made it to the adoption/rescue floor. 

What Lisa said above is so true. 

All dogs bite. You just haven't found the trigger yet. And you may not ever trigger him, but someone else could. Still a bite.


----------



## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANAnd this is a misconception, that dogs in shelters automatically come with problems. If they did, no one would ever adopt dogs from shelters, and rescues couldn't take any dogs from shelters either.
> 
> A lot of the people on this board and thread, like pup said, tend to take in weird cases or dogs with problems because we like them. I don't like all problems, and pick the ones I do. But just because you are seeing these stories (like Annalise) doesn't mean that shelter dogs come like that all the time.
> 
> I have gone and picked adult dogs up from shelters, tossed a burger in the backseat and off we have gone with no problems. I get the idea of liking to know the problems a dog has because you yourself had them as a puppy and have created them (me included in that you), but adult dogs are adopted out every day from shelters and rescues. The shelters in the south put to sleep a lot of dogs (A LOT) so the ones you generally get from the south, are pretty nice, or they wouldn't have made it to the adoption/rescue floor.
> 
> What Lisa said above is so true.
> 
> All dogs bite. You just haven't found the trigger yet. And you may not ever trigger him, but someone else could. Still a bite.


No, I didnt say they ALL have problems.....
I was using an example, a made up one.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

And I am using real ones. 

We have to fight this idea a lot, so that's why we consistently respond to clear up misconceptions, nothing personal at all!


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANAnd I am using real ones.
> 
> We have to fight this idea a lot, so that's why we consistently respond to clear up misconceptions, nothing personal at all!


----------



## GSDElsa

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: GSDElsa
> 
> I'm still waiting for those statistics showing that rescue dogs are more likely to bite than dogs from breeders.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious?
> I think its more of common sence that if I got an older dog with probelms from a shelter, that dog would be more likely to bite vs if I got an 8 week old pup & raised it my whole life.
> BUT, I mean I cant really say that.
> If I got a shelter dog & they told me "hey this dog gets mad when you clean its ears."
> A SMART person would avoid cleaning the dogs ears, except with muzzle on the dog.
> It also depends on the person too.
> I can read my dogs body language very very well.
> And maybe when people get a dog that they dont know, they aent sure of the body language?
> If my dog looks stressed or angry, I immeditly remove him from a situation that may not be so good.
> 
> Im not bashing rescues, but I mean I dont think (personally) I could EVER interact with a shelter dog the way I interact with my dog.
> I put my face in his face, and "bite" him.
> I lay on him & can touch any part of him without him getting angry.
> I litterally have my face in Kilos face half the day giving him kisses & itching his neck etc.
> If he was an older dog, (AGAIN, I AM NOT BASHING rescues)
> I dont think I would feel comfortable doing it.
> Again, keep in mind, Im not talking about a few month old dog.
> Im saying maybe 4 or older with a history of some problems.
> 
> The reason I did not get a rescue dog (was looking into it) is bc our bussiness is literally 3 feet from our home. I could not have an unpredicable dog running around free for fear it could bite someone.
> You never know.
> I am 100 per cent confident that my dog would never ever bite me.
> (Im not so sure about our neighbors cat though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jk)
> EVER.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm absolutely serious! I'd be glad to change my opinion if someone can show me some statistical analysis that a dog who is in rescue ends up biting more often than one that is raised from 8 weeks old. And I'm NOT talking about the ones that end up in rescue BECAUSE the owners created a problem BEFORE they got there (ie like I was saying before...they take their dog to a shelter because they can't "handle" it anymore).

You really just have to read the threads on this website to see how many problems there are with dogs who ARE from breeders and raised from 8 weeks old by the current owner. How many times a day does someone say "my dog is growling when I walk by its food bowl. my dog is barking constantly and fence fighting. my dog lunges at dogs on walks. my dog bit my kid who was riding on its back. my dog refuses to listen." I really could go on all day. And, from what I've seen, it's more often the people who raised the dogs from puppy age that have the most problems.

That's fine that you don't have a comfort level with a rescue dog, and that's a personal choice. But everything that you describe in your post is pretty much what I do with my rescue dog every day. I can take food from her mouth. I can tell her to leave food and not touch it and she will. I can cuddle with her. I can clean her ears. I can roll her on her back with her legs in the air to clip her nails. I can "pretend chomp" on her ears (ok...that's a weird one, but I tell her her ears are so cute I could eat them and then "pretend chomp" them..yes I know I have issues). I can carry her. And I got her as an adult.

And this is the way it should be with any dog....


----------



## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: GSDElsaOh, I'm absolutely serious! I'd be glad to change my opinion if someone can show me some statistical analysis that a dog who is in rescue ends up biting more often than one that is raised from 8 weeks old. And I'm NOT talking about the ones that end up in rescue BECAUSE the owners created a problem BEFORE they got there (ie like I was saying before...they take their dog to a shelter because they can't "handle" it anymore).
> 
> You really just have to read the threads on this website to see how many problems there are with dogs who ARE from breeders and raised from 8 weeks old by the current owner. How many times a day does someone say "my dog is growling when I walk by its food bowl. my dog is barking constantly and fence fighting. my dog lunges at dogs on walks. my dog bit my kid who was riding on its back. my dog refuses to listen." I really could go on all day. And, from what I've seen, it's more often the people who raised the dogs from puppy age that have the most problems.
> 
> That's fine that you don't have a comfort level with a rescue dog, and that's a personal choice. But everything that you describe in your post is pretty much what I do with my rescue dog every day. I can take food from her mouth. I can tell her to leave food and not touch it and she will. I can cuddle with her. I can clean her ears. I can roll her on her back with her legs in the air to clip her nails. I can "pretend chomp" on her ears (ok...that's a weird one, but I tell her her ears are so cute I could eat them and then "pretend chomp" them..yes I know I have issues). I can carry her. And I got her as an adult.
> 
> And this is the way it should be with any dog....


LOL love the ear biting thing!

I would never discourage anyone from getting a dog from a rescue.
And I hope I didnt come across like that....


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## sitstay

> Originally Posted By: LisaT Unfortunately, as we've seen on the board, lots of problems with dogs that people get from breeders and get as pups.


I cannot stress enough how true this statement is. I have fostered a ton of dogs. Most of them have been German Shepherd Dogs. These dogs have come to me from many, many different backgrounds. 

The one dog that has bitten me was my own dog that I purchased from a well known breeder as a puppy. I am not talking about a nip here, either. This was a severe, serious incident that left me very bruised and in pain for a long time afterward. 

It would be foolhardy to try and make it a simple All Puppies From Breeders Are Better-type formula.
Sheilah


----------



## RebelGSD

I was under the impression that this is the behavior/training section where people come for advice and insight about how to understand and resolve a particular behavior problem of their dog. It is good that not everybody treats dogs as completely disposable, like get a brand new puppy from the breeder, mess up with training, kill the dog, get a new brand new puppy from the breeder (and mess up another one). So there are these people whose dog develops an aggression issue and come here for advice.

Nobody says that biting is OK, and attempts were made in this thread to explain the behavior and give advice about resolving the issue. It seems that some members like to use these behavior threads for bragging about all of the things they can do to their own dogs. This is wonderful, and probably everyone has had one or more of the perfect ones. There is is the Braggs section for bragging about those, such information is not really too helpful to the OP or the dog with the issue. 

Same as there are different children with different personalities and some are perfect, others less so, bragging about perfect children is not useful in finding solutions for those needing help. Of course, luckily, killing children that create problems is against the law, so one has to make an effort to find a solution to a problem.

And good luck to those who think they will only be encountering the perfect dogs.


----------



## StGeorgeK9

> Originally Posted By: GSD07 PS You know this video. This dog didn't growl either, and he didn't bite the hands that were so close. And the guy was petting him showing affection and adoration. I wonder if this dog was put down as well.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDcZ3f_f1I


I have watched this video, and this video should be titled "the wrong way to pet a strange dog" Man! Look at that dogs body language!!! He is sending clear calming signal! And once again, blundering humans that we are, this man ignores them and steps up HIS aggression........All this mans body language screams aggression. Wow, I mean I would expect the dog to be able to handle some of this stress being on the police force, but I would not say that this was out of the blue, just no one was paying attention to the fact that the dog was very uncomfortable and had no avenue of retreat.


----------



## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSD
> 
> Nobody says that biting is OK, and attempts were made in this thread to explain the behavior and give advice about resolving the issue. It seems that some members like to use these behavior threads for bragging about all of the things they can do to their own dogs. This is wonderful, and probably everyone has had one or more of the perfect ones. There is is the Braggs section for bragging about those, such information is not really too helpful to the OP or the dog with the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> And good luck to those who think they will only be encountering the perfect dogs.


? I was using an examples.... If you dont like what I write, block me.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I did...... and it works.


----------



## RebelGSD

This was a general comment and you were definitely not the only one who had a long post about all of the things you can do with your own dog. My question is how these posts (and I am not trying to single out anyone) help someone resove the aggression issue of their dog.

If someone were to post in a health section about a health problem they are trying to resolve with their dog, long posts by members decribing how healthy their dogs are would not be very useful, and could even be interpreted as bad taste. Just an observation.


----------



## shilohsmom

> Originally Posted By: RebelGSDI was under the impression that this is the behavior/training section where people come for advice and insight about how to understand and resolve a particular behavior problem of their dog. It is good that not everybody treats dogs as completely disposable, like get a brand new puppy from the breeder, mess up with training, kill the dog, get a new brand new puppy from the breeder (and mess up another one). So there are these people whose dog develops an aggression issue and come here for advice.
> 
> 
> Nobody says that biting is OK, and attempts were made in this thread to explain the behavior and give advice about resolving the issue. It seems that some members like to use these behavior threads for bragging about all of the things they can do to their own dogs. This is wonderful, and probably everyone has had one or more of the perfect ones. There is is the Braggs section for bragging about those, such information is not really too helpful to the OP or the dog with the issue.
> 
> Same as there are different children with different personalities and some are perfect, others less so, bragging about perfect children is not useful in finding solutions for those needing help. Of course, luckily, killing children that create problems is against the law, so one has to make an effort to find a solution to a problem.
> 
> And good luck to those who think they will only be encountering the perfect dogs.



Great post! Thanks for pointing out that this is not the place to bragg about our own dogs great behaviour. 

As far as the dog in the video, I know the story on that. Thankfully the dog was not hurt in any way due to his actions and is still proudly serving on the force. The dog had just completed its training and was trained to bite if anyone goes for its neck. As you can see in the tape thats exactly what the reporter did as he begins to stroke the dog. The dog did exactly what he was trained to do and everyone (inc. the reporter understood that). 

Kathy I don't want to get off topic so I'll send you a pm about that wonderful button.


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## StGeorgeK9

Good to hear Rosa, I always feel bad when I see stuff like that and no one seems to notice the stress of the dog. I just kept seeing that reporter push and push and push, while the dog was sending calming signals all the way up until the reporter put his hands on his neck.


----------



## GSD07

The dog on the tape didn't bite the reporter the way he was trained. He corrected him for being pushy. Luckily, everyone understood that.
Chief did the same thing. Everyone blames him for that.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: Angel RAre you serious?
> I think its more of common sence that if I got an older dog with probelms from a shelter, that dog would be more likely to bite vs if I got an 8 week old pup & raised it my whole life.


Common sense says that if you are going to make comparisons, they need to be equivalent









ANY older dog with problems (particularly medical problems) is going to be more likely to bite than a new pup (other than puppy biting). I have to say that Max as a pup, in any situation, would be more willing to bite as Indy as a senior in any situation. You just can't generalize personalities like that!

I don't know if I consider Max a rescue dog (he was passed from owner to owner, never in rescue), his first owners *trained him to to bite*. It is now, in his 5th home, that he is the least likely to bite.


----------



## TxRider

> Originally Posted By: Betsy
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: GSD07 PS You know this video. This dog didn't growl either, and he didn't bite the hands that were so close. And the guy was petting him showing affection and adoration. I wonder if this dog was put down as well.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvDcZ3f_f1I
> 
> 
> 
> I have watched this video, and this video should be titled "the wrong way to pet a strange dog" Man! Look at that dogs body language!!! He is sending clear calming signal! And once again, blundering humans that we are, this man ignores them and steps up HIS aggression........All this mans body language screams aggression. Wow, I mean I would expect the dog to be able to handle some of this stress being on the police force, but I would not say that this was out of the blue, just no one was paying attention to the fact that the dog was very uncomfortable and had no avenue of retreat.
Click to expand...

Dunno if I would actually call that a bite though. And not out of the blue. Or of it was it was because the guy was not paying any attention to the dog.


----------



## TxRider

> Originally Posted By: selzerGCW.
> 
> But for everyone reading this thread, I do not think anyone should consider it normal or acceptable for a dog to bite you in the face. We should not have to keep our faces away from our dogs or get bittten.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but there is no place or part that is off limits for me with my dogs. If I want to check out the privates to see if one is in heat, if I let some strange man do a berry check on my boy, if I do toenails, if I want to remove something from my dog's mouth, I can hands down. It does not matter if the last time, I kept their prize, or if the last time, I nicked a quick and made them bleed. If I want to take their temperature, if I want to rub dry and weigh their newborn pup, I have that right. They can put their nose right in there and make sure the pup is fine, but I can handle every part of them, and their pups. It has to be that way.
> 
> I have had all my dogs since they were pups or raised them myself, so any baggage they have is my baggage.
> 
> Most of my dogs will lick my face. I allow this. I allow them to jump up, but they must OFF when I tell them to. I am trying to make the jumping up only when I invite them -- they are not all quite there yet.
> 
> However, Milla and Joy jump up and on occasion, I feel a tooth. This is NOT a bite. However, the game stops there, I tell them to be careful or gentle with Suzie's face. This is with absolutely zero aggression.
> 
> Bites that happen when a dog is in a heightened emotional state, like they just got hit by a car, had an epileptic siezure, or are in the middle of a dog fight and not trying to eat human but the stupid human got in the way, these bites do not count in my book. I would hope that most medical conditions would lower the dog's bite threshold, but there would definitely be warnings prior to an actual bite, like a snarl, growl, snap, etc.
> 
> So in this case if the Husky is growling when she whatever, the husky maybe needs to have a full check up, and if there is no medical condition that requires attention, then she needs to see a behaviorist.
> 
> This thread has been a bit of an eyeopener for me about rescued dogs, and the possible risk people are taking to rescue dogs. On the one hand, one would hope that people understand the risks and only agree to take a dog if they are willing to work through issues or put the dog down if it is necessary. On the other hand, we hope that no shep dies in a shelter just because there is no home for him, and this encorages people to rescue one, and more dogs, whether or not they are equiped to manage a serious behavior problem. While there may be no guarantee that if you get a pup at eight weeks it will not have any behavior problems, I think it would stack the deck in your favor.


Very well said, and basically what I do and how I react.

One of my rescue girls is there, and I trust her not to bite anyone for almost any reason but the most dire.

My newest rescue Kaya is still a bit of a bite threat but improving, not much of a threat to bite to me but definately to others.. she may always be but I don't believe so.

For now she's a bit of walking land mine for people who decide to reach out and pet her, especially kids unfortunately. I need to rent some small kids with big bags of smelly yummy treats that were raised around a dog...










For what it's worth, which isn't much, I have two GSD's bite me in my life, both were from breeders and raised from pups by their owners. I was not a stranger to either, both were put down some time later for biting.


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## selzer

This isn't about bragging, it is about people making excuses for a dog in trouble. People should not be in the dog's face, people should not grab the collar, people should understand that a dog is its own emotional being, the dog probably had a bad experience with its collar, muscle memory, etc. 

I think that people who live in the house with a dog should not have to tip toe around it.

Grabbing a dog's collar may save its life, it should not be a reason for getting a decent bite in the face.

EVERY DOG COMES FROM A BREEDER SOMEWHERE. 

So in fact, every dog that bites anyone has a breeder to thank for it. And every dog in rescue that has never bitten anyone and is just a sweetie pie to everyone she sees ALSO has a breeder.

It makes sense to me that if I have a dog from eight weeks up, and that dog develops an issue with being touched somewhere, I would probably know about it before I needed stitches.

Like so many people, I have a specific definition of what a "rescued" dog is. A "rescue" would be any dog obtained in any way other than as a young puppy purchased from a breeder or broker. (I am not considering dogs purchase as adults for a specific reason, ie breeding, showing, police work, etc.)

I think that it is highly probable that dogs obtained from reputable rescues would be better matched to their new owners, and have stable temperaments. But dogs rescued from shelters, obtained from less reputable rescues, given to them from a friend or family member who can't keep it any more and otherwise will have to take it to the pound, rescued as a stray, etc, may very well have character issues that no one can or will disclose.

Someone mentioned that the OP has plenty of experience with rescues. And yet, she has had two dogs already that had serious issues with aggression, and a third dog that seems to have an issue as well. Either there is a leadership issue going on, OR the dogs she is obtaining from the rescue are not stable to the point where she is unable to cope with their quirks. 

With rescue dogs, there is that possibility. 

With pups obtained at 7-12 weeks old, well if you have one with a serious behavior issue, uh, bad breeding, bad match, yeah maybe. If you have two or three? All at the same time? I'd have to be more skeptical.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: selzerSomeone mentioned that the OP has plenty of experience with rescues. And yet, she has had two dogs already that had serious issues with aggression, and a third dog that seems to have an issue as well. Either there is a leadership issue going on, OR the dogs she is obtaining from the rescue are not stable to the point where she is unable to cope with their quirks.


This is right on the mark....something is going on here.


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## pupresq

I think there are bunch of different issues under discussion here. For my part, I posted to say that any dog can bite and talk about the continuum of bite triggers/thresholds that dogs have, but that doesn't mean that I think it's _okay_ for dogs to bite. It's not about what behavior I think is acceptable it's about understanding why bites occur because that's the key to both preventing them as well as correcting a problem once it exists. Misunderstanding canine behavior creates situations where aggression can develop just as it makes aggression difficult to correct once a problem develops. 

I totally disgree that a dog adopted as an adult is more likely to bite than one raised for a puppy, but now that I think about it, maybe there aren't really a bunch of different issues. The underlying issue is not the dogs at all, it's people. Dogs bring their issues to the table, genetics, temperament, etc, and however they were raised (either by the current owner or a previous one) and then people react to them, deal with them, ignore potential warning signs or work to correct observed problems. I'm not saying every bite is the person's fault, but I also don't believe that a dog is a biter or not a biter and won't cross over, depending on the circumstances. 

Both as a rescue and a trainer, I have gotten calls from many an owner who had their dog from a puppy and is now experiencing aggression. It's quite possible that some of those dogs brought less than ideal temperaments in with them, but in a different home their behaviors would never have gotten to the point where there was a problem. Conversely, I've seen many a dog that appeared very sketchy at the shelter get into a dog-savvy home and turn completely around. The difference is not the dog and not the background, it's the people. Or at least, it's the interaction of all three. Yes, there are those exceptional situations where a dog has a serious disorder or something, but generally speaking aggression results from the confluence of temperament and handling. 

Whether a shelter dog ends up having problems in its new home or not involves exactly the same factors that determine whether a purchased puppy ends up having problems in its home or not. Both have to do with the new owners ability a. select a compatible pet to begin with and b. their handling of said pet once it goes home with them. 

Adopting from a good rescue can help a lot because they will try to match the adopter with a compatible dog, and a dog they are equipped to handle, and the same can be said of a reputable breeder, in as much as they can determine the temperament of the puppy at the time of purchase. 

But if someone adopts straight from a shelter they may do just fine too - if they're a good match for the dog they select or dog-savvy enough to handle any unexpected problems that come up - exactly the same as if they'd gotten the dog from anywhere else. The vast majority of dogs up for adoption at shelters are no less temperamentally sound than dogs obtained anywhere else, maybe more so.

Something to think about - shelters are seriously one of the most stressful environments a dog can experience. Shepherds in particular are particularly poor at coping with them. If a Shepherd makes it to the adoption floor at all, chances are it's a pretty darned solid dog. That's a far more rigorous temp test than most dogs that stay in a single home their whole life will ever have to pass.









Bottom line - you can't look at aggression as an isolated thing. It's a variable that depends on a number of different factors.


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## RebelGSD

It is obvious that a pet dog biting is unacceptable and what the ideal behavior should be. It is also clear that there are dogs that do not exhibit significant problem behaviors. 

The reality of life is that some dogs do exhibit problem behaviors that are not acceptable and should not be present. One solution is to kill the dog. Some people want a different solution, eliminating the problem behavior and they come to this section for advice. 

The first step to the solution is undersanding the triggers. Part of the solution is behavior modification that desensitizes the dog to the triggers. This takes time to accomplish. Until the behavior modification is successful, the situation is managed by avoiding the triggers to keep individuals interacting with the dog safe. This is usually a temporary phase leading to the "should" behavior.


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## pupresq

Totally agree!







And to do that, you've got to understand what the triggers are. It doesn't mean that you condone them, you just recognize them for what they are and go from there.


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## selzer

Every dog has the ability to bite. 

But once a dog has bitten, then you KNOW that he will most likely act the same way in similar situations. I do not see how a rescue is able to risk the liability of rehoming such a dog. 

Any dog can bite, but once a dog has bitten, isn't it more likely that this dog will bite again?


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: selzerAny dog can bite, but once a dog has bitten, isn't it more likely that this dog will bite again?


Not necessarily.

Max nailed me once when I gave him his first raw bone here. My fault, I reached in without working up to it, wasn't thinking because Indy is so safe. The look he had on his face after he did it, was one of just complete shock - he did it without thinking, and I never had to worry about him biting me again.

eta: okay, I did _worry_, but he never attempted to after that, and I was able to VERY quickly work up to taking a bone from him.

Once you have a dog that has bitten, you can use that information to help ensure that it doesn't happen again. Agreeing with a couple of the posts above, it's really about the humans in so many of these instances.


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## pupresq

> Quote:Any dog can bite, but once a dog has bitten, isn't it more likely that this dog will bite again?


As LisaT says, not necessarily, but depending on the nature of the bite, yes potentially. The main kind of biter I encounter is a dog who has been pushed to a point that he or she felt like s/he needed to bite to get the person to back off. Having done that, many dogs learn that biting/snapping is a good way to get people to back off. You can definitely rehab a dog like that but yes, placing them is a potential liability. Sometimes rescuers end up keeping dogs like that to avoid having to put them down. Many are great with their owner(s), just have certain triggers that you can't completely feel like you've eradicated, or don't want to chance it. Of course rescuers don't have an infinite capacity. I prefer to help people avoid bites whenever possible rather than deal with all the issues that arise after the fact.


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## SuzyE

If you jump on it right away then you can turn it around. I told my clients this. The dog thinks nothing of biting them now,but seven yrs ago I told them exactly what to do. Yeah, I'm mean. I told them to chnage the program and they didn't. Dog has a rap sheet a mile long. FUNNY thing though, after the dog bit them the first time I changed my stance with that dog. I usually spoil the dogs but not her. I messed with her mind. The dog has never even raised a lip to me, in fact I am walking her this week. I like her, but we have an understanding and she listens to me. She WILL bite them again for sure but interesting how in 7 yrs she has never messed with me.


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## HeidiW

So what was her final verdict? Is she returning Chief to rescue?


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Any dog can bite, but once a dog has bitten, isn't it more likely that this dog will bite again?


I think it can go either way. The bite itself doesn't cause more bites, it exposes weaknesses in temperament. So either one understands that weakness, where the dog's threshold is, and how he will react and is then able to manage the environment and desensitize the dog.... or, one does nothing and the dog remains unstable and bites again.


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## Jax08

I wonder what happened to Chief? It seems he just dropped off the planet without another mention of him.


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## selzer

Pages ago she said it was time for her to sign off of this thread and board.


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## MustLoveGSDs

*Update*

I wanted to re-visit this thread and post an update because this story is wild. I know many people wanted an update and this thread deserves one. I would have posted sooner but I've had a busy summer dealing with medical stuff and just recently had surgery. Sorry this is a bit of a novel.

After the whole Todd incident, I returned Chief to the rescue that i adopted him from. I was really torn up about making that decision. I cried all the time over that dog, I had dreams about Chief. He was my pride, my heart dog, and I felt extreme guilt for giving him up when it was the guy I should have left. I had stopped volunteering with the rescue at that point in time due to politics and had started volunteering with a newly formed GSD rescue that I am still with today. I eventually broke up with Todd due to his douchebaggery finally shedding light(I guess Chief knew all along). I eventually got word from one of our board members and my personal friend who was still in contact with the old rescue we parted ways from that Chief had been adopted by a guy waiting on an organ transplant, Chief was to be his unofficial therapy dog. They were fully aware of Chief's bite. I assumed the guy was just a kid because his parents were the one that handled the adoption. I was very happy that Chief had found a good home but still sad wondering if I would ever see him again. I hoped and wished I would. My friend would update me again with stories of how his new owner would take him everywhere with him, I had hoped that I would maybe run into him at a dog event. The months went by. 

I decided to send an email to the old rescue's director asking if I could have the new owner's address so I could ship him Chief's new custom collar I had made for him that he never got to wear. That was all, I had no ill intentions and wasn't going to act crazy and demand my dog back or anything like that. The director emailed me back and told me he'd get me the address but never did. Months and months went by and I'd still dream and think about Chief, sometimes still cry about him. Always hoping I would run into him. Eventually I got Prime, a Doberman, because I missed having a big, protective dog and Zelda just isn't that intimidating looking. I also adopted Rogue early this year because I missed having a black GSD in my life. My pack gets along fabulously and they are all great dogs, still I wondered about Chief in the back of my mind though. 

Fast forward to August 6th. I was having my birthday dinner at a restaurant downtown but wanted to do something with the dogs afterward. I suggested meeting at this place called Boneyard Drinkery, a dog park/bar, to my cousin and her boyfriend and they agreed to go. It was dark, around 9 pm and the moment I stepped into the dog park I IMMEDIATELY recognized Chief's face. He was standing a few feet away from me. I freaked on the inside and I went right up to the nearest person to him and asked, "Who owns this dog?!". This woman pointed to a guy with his back turned sitting at the nearest bench so I walked up to him and introduced myself, confirmed that the dog was in fact Chief, and spent the next 2 hours on and off talking to his owner. He was there meeting this girl but I ended up taking up all of his time, oops I didn't know, he was definitely eager to talk to me though. Chief still had his old custom Camo collar on that I had made for him. His owner told me that he kept the collar on just incase he would ever run into me, I'd recognize it. He said that Chief is a very special dog and he just knew whoever this Jamie person was that owned him had to be special and he wanted to meet me. He told me that he had also tried to get my contact info from the rescue but they never gave it to him, all they told him was my name and why he was back in the rescue. He had always wondered about me though.

He had a date with that girl he was there to meet in the next couple of days but he cancelled on her, sent her a nice email explaining he had met the former owner of his dog, and we had a date at the same place 2 days later. We started dating and have been together ever since! I want to say it was a very serendipitous moment that Chief had some dealing in, but the spark and chemistry we share isn't just because of Chief. So his new owner turned out to be a 29 year old pretty attractive, kind guy who is waiting on a kidney transplant. He goes to dialysis 3 days a week but other than that he is as healthy as he can be and we have a lot of fun together. He found out Chief unfortunately has hip dysplasia so his family has looked into getting surgery for him. He told me that when they first adopted Chief he bonded really closely to the mom and was protective of her, but Chief has since truly bonded with him and literally moves when he moves when I am visiting at their house. He always keeps a watchful eye on him. He was not accepting of the dad at first but trusted him over time. There has been no bites. Chief remembered me and showered me with kisses. I think he is happy that Zelda and I come to visit him and play. There is around 2 million people in the city of Houston. The odds of me running into Chief were slim to none. Even if things don't work out with this guy(though I am hopeful they will!), I am glad someone heard my wishes and Chief was brought back into my life for a bit.


Photos with chief and my dogs: 


Monitoring my two on squirrel patrol









with rogue









hangin out at one of our rescue meet n greets


















boyfriend's backyard:










the night I ran into him at Boneyard


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## Samba

Okay, THAT is a story!!!


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## MustLoveGSDs

I could not make this up!


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## Konotashi

I have nothing to say but :wild: and :wub:


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## robinhuerta

The proper ending to this story should be (like all proper stories)
...._..and they lived happily ever after.....THE END._

Great story.....best wishes to you all.


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## KZoppa

very awesome! Everything happens for a reason.


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## Kittilicious

awww that is so sweet! I got a little teary at the end!!!


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## PaddyD

Nice story nicely told. Good luck to you all.


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## JakodaCD OA

what an AWESOME story!!!!!! I believe in "fate" it was meant to be...


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## gsdraven

Oh, Jamie! I'm so happy for you and Chief!! What a wonderful story. I hope that things continue to be great for everyone involved!!


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## Catu

This should be make a movie!! Thanks for the story, it cheered my day

Now... Id like to stumble across an attractive young dog lover man too


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## Stosh

Holy cow, what a story! Now that's the kind of guy worth waiting for.


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## onyx'girl

KZoppa said:


> very awesome! Everything happens for a reason.


Agree!! I hope you'll stick around with updates!


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## Hillary_Plog

Wow, beautiful story!


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## Achielles UD

Amazing! Best wishes to you all!  :wub:


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## 1sttimeforgsd

Truly a great story, happy ending for all. May you share many years of happines. :wub:


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Wow ,that was wonderful.Im so happy for you ,your dogs and Chief . sounds like you were meant to be together .


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## Lakl

Wow! Amazing story! So happy that things turned out the way they did. Good Luck to ALL of you!


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## DanielleOttoMom

Wow!! What a beautiful heart felt story. I'm so glad you found each other again (Houston is a big city). Then to also have a good looking man attached to that! What a happy ending. That story should be a movie for sure. I got goose bumps just reading it.


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## Jax08

What an incredible new beginning to Chief's story. May you have many, many happy years ahead of you!


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## msvette2u

Wow, I missed the original posting but this ending is so awesome 
Congrats, and good luck and all that stuff!


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## Germanshepherdlova

What an awesome story, sounds like a fairytale. I sincerely hope that things work out between you and your new boyfriend, and you guys live happily ever after with your doggy family!


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## Stella's Mom

What a wonderful story! I hope all works out well with you and your new boyfriend so that you can all make one big happy family.


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## MustLoveGSDs

We both said that we need to write a book because this is something that you only see in movies, so one day we have got to sit down and find a way to eloquently put our stories of meeting each other together. This is a love story/dog book I would definitely read! If things kept heading in the right direction we even talked about a wedding reception at Boneyard, Chief would definitely be the ring bearer at the wedding. Our families have already met multiple times and we have already been through a LOT together(mostly medical stuff...stuff that would make most people run away) in this short amount of time that really tests a relationship so I have high hopes. Plus he passed all of my dog tests(the most important thing when getting into a new relationship! ), is very supportive of my rescue work..tells me he is proud of me and the things I do for dogs in need, and tells me I'm beautiful everyday so geez.. I can't ask for much more than that! The best thing is that Chief loves and respects him and my Dobie highly approves(he doesn't warm up to most people, he is more reserved and observant). I want to let the owner of Boneyard know about our story but I figured I should wait until we are engaged(if it happens) so there is some real, juicy substance to the story.

Here he is with all of the kids









Prime is totally sold on him, they are great buds


















and this is the first photo I took of him and Chief









There is one issue, Chief is overweight. I was shocked when I saw him at Boneyard but didn't want to bring it up then, I ended up bringing it up the next day though, lol. Chief was a nice and trim 75 lbs when I had him and he has really blown up to around 93. I've explained in detail why the extra weight is so detrimental to his health and hips and he told me that his parents feed him table scraps every day and always take him through mcdonalds drive thrus. I've been really working on them and his weight is coming down slowly. He definitely wants Chief to be around for a long time and I do to so it's been a battle with his parents but they are starting to come around.


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## Caledon

Wow great story. I was just thinkiing that this is the stuff that a good love movie is made from.


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## sitstay

Oh, wow! Of all the turns this story could have taken, I never in a million years would have even considered the turn it actually took. 

Incredible story. Best of luck to everyone, dogs and humans. 
Sheilah


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## Stella's Mom

MustLoveGSDs said:


> We both said that we need to write a book because this is something that you only see in movies, so one day we have got to sit down and find a way to eloquently put our stories of meeting each other together. This is a love story/dog book I would definitely read! If things kept heading in the right direction we even talked about a wedding reception at Boneyard, Chief would definitely be the ring bearer at the wedding. Our families have already met multiple times and we have already been through a LOT together(mostly medical stuff...stuff that would make most people run away) in this short amount of time that really tests a relationship so I have high hopes. Plus he passed all of my dog tests(the most important thing when getting into a new relationship! ), is very supportive of my rescue work..tells me he is proud of me and the things I do for dogs in need, and tells me I'm beautiful everyday so geez.. I can't ask for much more than that! The best thing is that Chief loves and respects him and my Dobie highly approves(he doesn't warm up to most people, he is more reserved and observant). I want to let the owner of Boneyard know about our story but I figured I should wait until we are engaged(if it happens) so there is some real, juicy substance to the story.
> 
> Here he is with all of the kids
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> and this is the first photo I took of him and Chief
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> 
> There is one issue, Chief is overweight. I was shocked when I saw him at Boneyard but didn't want to bring it up then, I ended up bringing it up the next day though, lol. Chief was a nice and trim 75 lbs when I had him and he has really blown up to around 93. I've explained in detail why the extra weight is so detrimental to his health and hips and he told me that his parents feed him table scraps every day and always take him through mcdonalds drive thrus. I've been really working on them and his weight is coming down slowly. He definitely wants Chief to be around for a long time and I do to so it's been a battle with his parents but they are starting to come around.[/QUOTE
> 
> Your story would make an excellent movie indeed. You should contact Lifetime or Animal Planet about it. They may have screen writers on staff.


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## Scarlettsmom

I read the whole thing. Agree, a great story! Someday you will have to put it to paper. It's a total Lifetime Movie of the Week story! Oprah would have LOVED to meet you guys. Please do keep us posted. My world could definitely use some positive news now and then.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Another update..

Fox news interviewed Sean, his mom, and me today for about 3 hours. They are going to run a story about the struggles and depression Sean has faced when dealing with his kidney problem, since he has been passed up 8 times now for a transplant. They got some footage of us playing with Chief and Rogue and some of us walking the dogs down the street. The story is supposed to air sometime in February and go national. They still need to get some footage of him at dialysis and interview a couple more people.

Btw we told the reporter and producer the story of how we met. They agreed it should be a movie!


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## onyx'girl

Very cool! I hope the exposure will help him get a much needed kidney. Thanks for updating, I'll look forward to the link of the news story!


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## pfitzpa1

GSD07 said:


> If a dog that I raised bit me in my face or anywhere else, I would take full responsibility and certainly would not gladly arrange transport and gladly re-home my dog to a stranger from an internet forum within days after the incident.
> 
> I would spend a lot of time and efforts to understand what went wrong and if there is a fix. I would work with my dog to overcome the problem, and after the dog is rehabilitated I may rehome the dog in case me or someone in my family would keep resenting the dog. We do need to take into consideration everyone we live with, animals and humans, and work on finding the best solution possible.
> 
> But if after all I would still believe that my dog is unstable and dangerous I would be with my dog when he's put to sleep. I would not want someone else be hurt by my dog by sending him to another home, and I would also not want my dog to die among strangers. Then I would be left with a guilt for failing my dog, and would try very hard not to find myself in that position again.
> 
> Because I love my dog, MustLoveGSDs.


How things have changed.

Where I grew up (in Irish countryside) a dog biting a human (especially a family member) was the end of the dog. My dad took one of his favorite (working) dogs out and shot him after he bit his young niece in the face. That was the way it was back then (30 years ago).


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## RubyTuesday

Thankfully there's been some progress & a bite isn't an automatic death sentence.

To Jamie, I wish you & yours the very best. Let us know if I mean when you write that book!


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## MustLoveGSDs

I will keep this thread updated


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## MustLoveGSDs

Here is the link as promised!

Psychiatric Trauma of Waiting for Transplant


Sean received a transplant on feb 20th. It has gone into cellular rejection and they are treating him with IVIG to try and kick start the kidney. When I am not working I spend my days/nights off at the hospital with Sean. This has been such a roller coaster. We are all trying to stay strong.


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## jetscarbie

I'm praying for Sean.


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## gsdraven

Lots of positive thoughts going to Sean, his family and you for strength and healing!


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## JakodaCD OA

also praying for a good outcome


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