# Aggression/Resource guarding around small child



## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

I was hoping that someone might be able to shed some light on this situation. This may be long so bear with me.

Apollo is 7 months old. We got him when he was just under 3 months old from one of my husband's coworkers who had only had him for a couple of weeks and decided he was too much of a responsibility. I work on training with him daily. He gets lots of exercise most days. We go for hikes, we go for walks every day rain or shine. We play fetch and incorporate training into it. He has a lot of puppy in him still but I really am working on making him a pleasant dog to live with. I dedicate entire evenings multiple times a week to only focus on him and his training. We have had two private trainers come to the house as well as attended a puppy class and an obedience class. 

So, I just wanted to establish that I'm not tossing him outside all day long with no proper exercise or training and expecting him to be a perfect dog. I'm REALLY trying hard here and devote a lot of time to him. And also to establish that he was perhaps a BYB dog because there's no paperwork on him, although he is a very beautiful dog, I know sometimes BYB can produce problems. Now that I’ve got that background out of the way…

I’m concerned at Apollo’s behavior with my 3 year old son. I have two kids (7 and 3). The 7 year old isn’t an issue, I don’t think. She’s pretty calm and measured and Apollo will drop toys at her feet and listen when she tells him to sit or lay down. But my 3 year old is another story. He is a typical 3 year old- not bad, just a normal 3 year old. I'm aware of toddlers being stressful towards dogs because of their unpredictably and jerky movements and all that, so I have never left him and Apollo alone together.

So... we were on vacation visiting family in another state about a month ago and brought Apollo with us. Following a long hike with him, he was laying on the back porch close to the back door at my father’s house chewing a bone. So, I’m sitting in a chair fairly close to Apollo and my 3 year old comes up to me and is standing in front of me. Apollo is maybe a foot away and growls and then a split second later he bit my son’s shorts. I realize the growl was a warning, but before my mind even processed that he was growling, he was moving forward to bite my son’s shorts. I have to assume he was trying to actually bite him, not just nip at his shorts because this looked different than the times he "puppy-nipped" at my hand or whatever.

As soon as we got home, I called a trainer who said it was probably resource guarding along with being in an unfamiliar environment but she gave me different techniques to try such as elevating his food, putting treats in his food bowl, trading bones and toys, etc. He has been great with all of that. I can walk over to where he’s eating and without saying or doing anything, he will stop eating and sit and look at me. When he gets bones now, I put him in his crate so that there is no risk of anything happening over the bone. The trainer has said that he is doing very well and she doesn’t notice any resource guarding tendencies.

But then last night… it was raining outside so I tried to entertain Apollo inside the house. I created a little puzzle for him out of a box where I put smaller boxes inside with treats and stuff (it was silly- I just wanted to give him something to do). He was trying to figure out the boxes in the middle of the living room floor and my 3 year old was on the couch watching TV with me. My 3 year old says something to Apollo and then leans forward on the couch and Apollo barks at him. Just one bark but it was not a playful bark or a demanding bark- it seemed like an aggressive bark to me.

A couple of other things: I had posted maybe a month or so ago about Apollo growling and barking somewhat aggressively at my niece (who is older) when she came over after Apollo was settled into his crate for the evening. Someone mentioned that yes it was aggression and to take note that he did "that" in him. I haven't forgotten that. That's why I'm always monitoring his interactions with my kids and why, after the near-miss biting incident, I called a trainer right away.

He barks and lunges at other dogs at our obedience class and has to be put into a corner with a sheet over the partition. several other dogs do this too so I tried to write it off as being not a big deal, but now I'm starting to think it may be part of a bigger problem?

Please be easy on me. I'm trying very hard here, I'm sorry if it doesn't come across that way but I truly am. I love this dog and he is so smart, catches onto things so quickly... but I don't want to have to worry that if my son leans forward on the couch that Apollo could possibly go into aggressive mode. Obviously, now I'm not just going to give bones in the crate but ANY kind of treat or reward in the crate. Perhaps I need another trainer? (Im in the central KY area if anyone knows a good one- please share!) If anyone has ANY advice or words of wisdom, I would really appreciate it.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

If I had a young 3 year old son (definitely do not @ 23 years old) and my 7 month old German Shepherd attempted to bite him I can assure you I would not attempt to elevate his food or any of those other techniques...he would get a correction that would ensure he would never make that decision again


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

It absolutely devastated me when he bit at my 3 year old. I shouted "NO" at him, took the bone and then put him in his crate for some quiet time after this. I don't know if this was the right technique- the trainer said that taking the bone was what he was afraid of so I escalated the situation. I honestly didn't know what to do. I have never had a dog do anything like that and I was shocked. I was crying afterwards because I was SO upset by it.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I’d just make sure they never even have the chance to interact with each other right now and then go from there


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Chuck94! said:


> I’d just make sure they never even have the chance to interact with each other right now and then go from there


Do you think that there's "hope" for this situation? I am totally on board with keeping them away from each other. I've gone back to having Apollo on a leash with me all day "just in case" because it makes me feel a little more in control of the situation.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I am so sorry you are having these concerns  I'm hoping someone knows a good trainer in your area who can assess the situation. In the meantime, manage. Do not let any type of food, reward, toys etc be in the same area as your dog and people, especially kids. Do not leave him unsupervised with kids at all, no exceptions until a trainer can figure out what is what. Again, I am sorry, I am sure it is extremely upsetting


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Don't let him have anything around the kids and I wouldn't have him loose with them for now either. We all want a dog that loves our kids, the family dog that will do anything for all of us, affectionate and everything, but I think what you have to keep in mind is to think in terms of respect first of all, competition, and how the dog perceives these things. Competition can be over almost anything in his head. You didn't mention him wanting to chase them, but generally prey drive like that is easy to handle. 

I'd have a very strict structure to everything with him. Calm but firm obedience on leash around the kids. Teach him a place command, on leash. Look to create more of a calm indifference in him to your kids when they're doing whatever they're doing. Others may tell you to have the kids do this or that, feed him or whatever. My approach is more along the lines of the kids are mine, you're going to behave. Once he's showing you that he can maintain some control and he doesn't startle or get excited with excited kids, I think then you can kinda look at what relationship they'll actually have. 

Its not that you're doing anything "wrong". The only thing that prepares us for some things is experience. Owning different temperaments and raising 3 kids, we were lucky to meet and make friends with people that could show us.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Don't let him have anything around the kids and I wouldn't have him loose with them for now either. We all want a dog that loves our kids, the family dog that will do anything for all of us, affectionate and everything, but I think what you have to keep in mind is to think in terms of respect first of all, competition, and how the dog perceives these things. Competition can be over almost anything in his head. You didn't mention him wanting to chase them, but generally prey drive like that is easy to handle.
> 
> I'd have a very strict structure to everything with him. Calm but firm obedience on leash around the kids. Teach him a place command, on leash. Look to create more of a calm indifference in him to your kids when they're doing whatever they're doing. Others may tell you to have the kids do this or that, feed him or whatever. My approach is more along the lines of the kids are mine, you're going to behave. Once he's showing you that he can maintain some control and he doesn't startle or get excited with excited kids, I think then you can kinda look at what relationship they'll actually have.
> 
> Its not that you're doing anything "wrong". The only thing that prepares us for some things is experience. Owning different temperaments and raising 3 kids, we were lucky to meet and make friends with people that could show us.



Thank you for this. Seriously, I have been fretting all day about Apollo and my 3 year old and barking thing yesterday. My last dog who was around for both of my kids was an old English Springer... and you could have dropped a bomb in front of that dog and he wouldn't have cared. So obviously, comparing that to a GSD (this particular GSD!) doesn't work and I haven't assumed that Apollo would be like my other dog at all, it's just such night and day and I guess that's part of what shocks me so much. Anyways... thank you so much for your suggestions. I know I need to find a really good trainer (since obviously my attempts at trainers are failing!) but in the mean time, it was nice to read this and feel like I had some kind of plan in place. We are working SO hard at the place command and he's starting to get it moreso than before. He has never chased after the kids, but they don't normally run around crazy and if they do, I try to make sure that Apollo isn't nearby because then it would just be potential chaos. But yes, I'm going to separate him from both of the kids just to be on the safe side and go into super strict mode. I have already been practicing NILIF and making him work for each thing that he gets and it was going well. Then yesterday just discouraged me so much. Thank you again for your comment.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Our first Rott was good dog Carl. Our 2nd one wanted to chase and bite everything that moved including our kids. That was when we had to go through a some quick learning. In a lot of ways it really just comes down to not allowing them to be in certain situations at all. The obedience I think comes down to a calm balance. You don't try to bribe them and you don't really want to create a situation where all you're doing is trying to correct them and stop something, because if it doesn't, it may make things worse. Teach them what TO do, and then you'll enforce that. Make sense?


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Our first Rott was good dog Carl. Our 2nd one wanted to chase and bite everything that moved including our kids. That was when we had to go through a some quick learning. In a lot of ways it really just comes down to not allowing them to be in certain situations at all. The obedience I think comes down to a calm balance. You don't try to bribe them and you don't really want to create a situation where all you're doing is trying to correct them and stop something, because if it doesn't, it may make things worse. Teach them what TO do, and then you'll enforce that. Make sense?


That does make sense. It's easier to just eliminate the behavior I don't like. I had a revelation a couple of months ago that if I didn't want him barking when he was outside(with me out there with him), then instead of trying to stop the barking, I just took him inside and that was so much easier than the alternative. This is kind of the same (on a different level) but I hadn't even thought of it like that. Thanks for putting it into an easy to understand perspective


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

So... I feel like this could not have happened at a worse time, but, just now I took Apollo on his nightly walk. We passed people and he was fine. We stopped and they passed and he was totally cool. We passed barking dogs. He looked at them and then carried on.

Then... a child ran into their front lawn about two houses in front of us. Apollo growled, his hackles went up, and he was lunging forward. We crossed the street immediately but oh my gosh. I would have rather him reacted to the dogs or barked at the people we passed than show these aggressive signs towards a CHILD. It's like his progress with reacting to people/dogs has been totally diminished because he really wanted to go after a child.

I was already feeling so worried today and this made it so much worse. Should I cut out the walks? Only do them really late at night or early in the morning? Ugh. I am so saddened by this.

I'll echo my original post- if anyone knows any good trainers in the central KY area, I'm open to suggestions. I have several friends with GSDs and asked them about trainers- I used one (the one in my original post who recommended the elevating food, etc) and the other GSD owners I know had never utilized a trainer.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

very sorry you are going through this. Take a deep breath. 

Maybe try a new thread looking for trainer recommendations? If that plus your location were the thread title maybe you'd get a better response?


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> very sorry you are going through this. Take a deep breath.
> 
> Maybe try a new thread looking for trainer recommendations? If that plus your location were the thread title maybe you'd get a better response?


Thank you for this suggestion. I posted a new thread in the finding a trainer section. I am just so stressed tonight over all of this ?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I know. Hang in there. Just make sure he doesn't have access to your kids so you can just have a breather where you can regroup and find a trainer who can help you.

I wish trainers weren't so inconsistent in ability.

Where did he come from? Can you call the breeder?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Never mind, I see in your original post he is probably backyard bred so sounds like no breeder to reach out to. You know what though, a reputable GSD breeder in your area might be able to recommend a trainer.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GreenMountain said:


> So... I feel like this could not have happened at a worse time, but, just now I took Apollo on his nightly walk. We passed people and he was fine. We stopped and they passed and he was totally cool. We passed barking dogs. He looked at them and then carried on.
> 
> Then... a child ran into their front lawn about two houses in front of us. Apollo growled, his hackles went up, and he was lunging forward. We crossed the street immediately but oh my gosh. I would have rather him reacted to the dogs or barked at the people we passed than show these aggressive signs towards a CHILD. It's like his progress with reacting to people/dogs has been totally diminished because he really wanted to go after a child.
> 
> ...



I am sorry that this is happening, and I am sorry that you are not going to like my opinion but it is what it is.

Kids are my line in the sand. Dogs in my house have two options. They can put up with the kids and hopefully enjoy it or they can leave the area. Growling, barking, lip curls or any other displays are not permitted and would not be dealt with gently. Snapping or biting would unleash the wrath of **** on them. 

Some dogs just need that come to Jesus talk and some simply do not like children. Bud was not a fan of small humans, so he was crated or confined around them. But he never, ever growled or snapped at one.

Dogs are first and foremost companions. When they are incapable of doing that, sorry but we have a surplus of great dogs around and the ones that aren't simply don't need to be here. So find a trainer and do what you need to do. If it's simply a matter of confining him great but if it were me in the situation you describe, snap at my child one more time and you are toast.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Sabis Mom- I totally agree with everything you said. I know it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to hear, but it was a perspective that I needed to hear. I am willing to put up with and through almost anything with a dog that I love(which is every dog I’ve ever had!) but kids are different situation. I know that keeping them separated is what I have to do now and I am fine with that... but I don’t want to have to do that forever, or even for the next few years until my son gets older. I want Apollo to be able to act normally because for me that one near-bite incident was one too many. I really hope that a trainer will be able to offer some solution because after our walk yesterday where he seemed to single out the child to growl at... that made me feel pretty hopeless.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm so glad you're looking for a trainer who can help. As a parent of a 1-year-old and an almost three year-old, I can imagine the stress you must be feeling. I'm just a pet-owner, not an expert in anything, so I'm not qualified to give you advice, particularly on the dog on child aggression in your home. But as far as dealing with reactivity while walking your dog, when you met the child, how were you feeling and how did you act? Sometimes if we get nervous and tense up when we see someone or something approaching, tighten the leash, ect, our energy can travel down the leash and affect how the dog behaves--especially with a dog who already has reactive tendencies. I had a dog-reactive GSD once, and I had to learn to walk him with a calm, confident energy around other dogs and give him a strong correction just before he started to react.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't think any trainer, no matter how good, is going to be able to make this a dog I would be relaxed about having around your small child in the near future. And if any trainer told you otherwise I would be suspect.

Here is one issue to consider: in order to train the dog you have to have the issues come up. for a dog to change how it acts around kids it must be trained around kids. Training isn't an exact science and things don't always go 100% according to plan. So someone's kid has to be around the dog to proof anything you want to proof. Who is going to volunteer their kid for that?

How strictly can you manage him, because one mistake where he has a food item near a kid may lead to a bite. He is a big puppy still, think when he is mature.

All the stuff you did for resource guarding with the one trainer is great but it doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the toddler because YOU were the one adding rewards to the dog for tolerance. I don't know what elevating the food has to do with anything.

I guess I am just hoping you are realistic about what a trainer can do and what you must still do regardless. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

So sorry you are going through this! 

I adopted a dog-aggressive GSD. I found this book, by a trainer who lives in Michigan, a huge help. It's expensive, but the Kindle edition (or the paperback) is cheaper:

https://www.amazon.com/Aggression-D...pID=51MK21FYgAL&preST=_SY445_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Brenda also does seminars and training - google to see if there's anything near you.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't think any trainer, no matter how good, is going to be able to make this a dog I would be relaxed about having around your small child in the near future. And if any trainer told you otherwise I would be suspect.
> 
> Here is one issue to consider: in order to train the dog you have to have the issues come up. for a dog to change how it acts around kids it must be trained around kids. Training isn't an exact science and things don't always go 100% according to plan. So someone's kid has to be around the dog to proof anything you want to proof. Who is going to volunteer their kid for that?
> 
> ...


What you mentioned about needing a kid to be around Apollo in order for his behavior to change is exactly what I was worried about. Right now, I don’t want either of my kids around Apollo at all and it breaks my heart to say that. But I don’t know what point I would be able to trust him to be around them. I mean, what if Apollo finds a piece of food on the floor and decided that’s worth guarding and my son walks in the kitchen and something happens? Obviously I’m not going to put either of them in that position but I don’t know how to fix it without, like you said, a kid being around.

I just don’t know. Honestly, I’m kind of scared to have him growing bigger and stronger (he’s 65 pounds now). I can’t imagine that with him being bigger that I would feel any more comfortable with him being around kids (especially my younger one).

I’m not sure what to do for the long run. Or maybe I just don’t want to think about that part... this is hard.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

Sunsilver said:


> So sorry you are going through this!
> 
> I adopted a dog-aggressive GSD. I found this book, by a trainer who lives in Michigan, a huge help. It's expensive, but the Kindle edition (or the paperback) is cheaper:
> 
> ...


I will check this out! Thank you for the link!


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

sebrench said:


> I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm so glad you're looking for a trainer who can help. As a parent of a 1-year-old and an almost three year-old, I can imagine the stress you must be feeling. I'm just a pet-owner, not an expert in anything, so I'm not qualified to give you advice, particularly on the dog on child aggression in your home. But as far as dealing with reactivity while walking your dog, when you met the child, how were you feeling and how did you act? Sometimes if we get nervous and tense up when we see someone or something approaching, tighten the leash, ect, our energy can travel down the leash and affect how the dog behaves--especially with a dog who already has reactive tendencies. I had a dog-reactive GSD once, and I had to learn to walk him with a calm, confident energy around other dogs and give him a strong correction just before he started to react.


This is definitely worth thinking about... last night on our walk, I don’t *think* I was acting nervous beforehand. I was praising him throughout the walk because he was doing so well with distractions that he’s usually reactive to (barking dogs, walking dogs, people) so then this little kid came running into their yard and I was thinking “OK we’ll pass like normal or if she moves to the sidewalk, we’ll just cross the street.” I wasn’t feeling worried in that moment but no sooner did we see the little kid than Apollo started growling loudly and lunging. THEN I got upset, nervous, all of the above


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

IMO if your gut (intuition) tells you the dog is not safe around children you might consider rehoming him to people who know how to train GSDs and don't have children.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I am sorry to hear about the new development. 

A good trainer had said to me, about nerves in general..you can't change what they are, but sometimes you can change what they do. The only person who can tell you if this is manageable is a breed savvy trainer who has eyes on it and gets to know the dog. Did your other thread get any traffic? 

If you do decide to rehome just understand that giving him to someone with no kids does not qualify as keeping him away from kids. People have friends, relatives. It would have to be someone with no kids who agreed not to take them out where they may encounter kids, and to crate him when friends and family with kids visit. 

He hasn't bitten yet, and it sounds like he keys on kids or is afraid of them hence being defensive. I'd definitely see what a trainer says before making any further decisions.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Nurse Bishop said:


> IMO if your gut (intuition) tells you the dog is not safe around children you might consider rehoming him to people who know how to train GSDs and don't have children.


 @GreenMountain

"Gut/intuition" key words here. Trust them. On this board, we can only imagine what you are actually experiencing. 

Question you need to ask yourself:

Can you see yourself living the next 10 - 12 years with this potentially dangerous situation?

It would be great if you could find some help like Steve did. But sometimes it can be hard to find the right trainer IF indeed it can be remedied. 

I don't know why some dogs have these kinds of quirks. Sometimes we accidentally create them, sometimes it's genetic. But one thing I am sure of, day to day living on edge with this behavior, would most likely be too much for me.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GreenMountain said:


> Sabis Mom- I totally agree with everything you said. I know it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to hear, but it was a perspective that I needed to hear. I am willing to put up with and through almost anything with a dog that I love(which is every dog I’ve ever had!) but kids are different situation. I know that keeping them separated is what I have to do now and I am fine with that... but I don’t want to have to do that forever, or even for the next few years until my son gets older. I want Apollo to be able to act normally because for me that one near-bite incident was one too many. I really hope that a trainer will be able to offer some solution because after our walk yesterday where he seemed to single out the child to growl at... that made me feel pretty hopeless.


This response tells me you have a good shot at this working. For the very simple reason that you are able to think with your logical, common sense brain and not your I love my baby dog brain. 
As I said, Bud was not a fan of small humans so we limited exposure and crated or penned him when they needed to be free range in my house or yard. It was a simple matter of making sure that he understood that moving away was his only option if their paths crossed. This insured that if small fingers went through gates or fencing there would be no chomping. Maybe this will be your situation, maybe your boy simply needs to understand that children are off limits. My son was bitten in the face by tenants dog when he was 3, so I do understand.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

CometDog said:


> I am sorry to hear about the new development.
> 
> A good trainer had said to me, about nerves in general..you can't change what they are, but sometimes you can change what they do. The only person who can tell you if this is manageable is a breed savvy trainer who has eyes on it and gets to know the dog. Did your other thread get any traffic?
> 
> ...


I got a message from someone who recommended a trainer about 3 hours away from me. I plan on calling them and asking them either if I could come for a one or two time visit (because I'm willing to drive the 3 hours, just not on a regular basis) or ask them if they could recommend someone closer to me. I'm hoping that there is some solution here. The thought of re-homing him really breaks my heart, but if it were to come to that, I would make the no-kids thing extremely clear. I definitely would not want to put anyone else's children at risk.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

gsdluvr said:


> @GreenMountain
> 
> "Gut/intuition" key words here. Trust them. On this board, we can only imagine what you are actually experiencing.
> 
> ...


That is what I'm afraid of. I don't think I have it in me to deal with something like this for 10 years. I'm very much the type of person who believes that when you get a dog, you're making a commitment to them for their lifetime but I've never experienced anything like this, even though I know this isn't as extreme as some other cases of aggression. When I was a kid we had a Kerry Blue Terrier who was just beautiful, but one day when I was maybe 7 I was leaning down to pick something up off the ground and the dog bit me on the nose- blood and everything. The dog went back to the breeder the next morning. I remember being so upset by it because I loved the dog and I was mad at my mother for giving her back... but now as a mom myself, I totally get it. Apollo hasn't done any "damage" (thank God) but I'm afraid that even if I'm super vigilant about keeping the kids separate... what if it's 2 years from now and nothing has happened and I just forget one day or I get lax about it because things have been so good, and what if something happened? That's what I keep imagining. I definitely think that would get to be too much for me. I'm still going to reach out to a trainer but I'm feeling really stressed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If it was me, I would rehoming him. I got my first purebred when my children were small but they were young school age. The breeder would not sell to anyone with preschool age children because of the possibility a dog might hurt a child or the child could not settle down enough to be safe around children. Look at it from your son’s perspective. How will he feel if he is the only one in the family who can’t be around the family dog? Can he spend the next 4-5 years not running or moving quickly, not playing in the house or talking loud? It’s not a question of your ability to train the dog, it’s the time and intensity and loss of a relaxed family atmosphere it would take to manage this dog.


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

So... give me your all’s take on this.

I talked to a trainer who specializes in aggressive dogs. I can’t afford the $3,000 to board Apollo for the trainer to work with him more closely and the trainer doesn’t work in home outside of the city he lives in.

So, he suggested something that I was wondering what everyone’s take was. He recommended getting a good fitting comfortable muzzle for Apollo and getting him used to it. He also recommended my husband or me holding Apollo’s leash and the other one of us leading our son into the area then showering Apollo with treats. From a distance at first then closer and closer and during different activities. He’s recommended the muzzle during walks just to make us feel more comfortable. He said he was going to see if he could find any word on a trainer in my more immediate area because I’d really like someone to come into the home and just critique the crap out of me and tell me everything that I need to do.

I’ve worked out a separation of Apollo and the kids and it’s working easier than I thought it would be but still not something I want to do for forever. Anyways, I’m hoping I’ll be able to find a trainer to come to the house but in the mean time I’m feeling OK (not comfortable and ready to let my guard down or anything stupid) but just OK and not so frazzled over this right now. I’m going to work on finding a good muzzle tomorrow. Any suggestions on that?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I think the wire ones are best. To be really secure, they need a strap down the forehead, as well as one that goes from the bottom of the muzzle, underneath the jaw, and attaches to the collar.

Without these two straps, it's possible for the dog to pull the muzzle off.

Make sure there is enough room in the muzzle that the dog can pant, as it's summertime, and that's a dog's main way of cooling itself.

A good muzzle also has a strap or piece of felt to prevent the top of the muzzle from resting on the dog's nose, and possibly rubbing it raw. 

This one from Leerburg is very similar to the one I bought for my dog-aggressive dog, and has all the features I mentioned.

Wire Basket Muzzle


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Add this muzzle as one to look at as well. It is what I started Woolf off in because anything less was not going to prevent the bites he so wanted to do.

https://www.dtdogcollars.com/DT-Muzzle-Basket-Muzzle-p/dtm4light.htm


Something to keep in mind, especially with these hard wire muzzles is the damage they can still inflict with muzzle punches. Be sure to watch for cues the dog has reached limit and needs a break.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

The thing I keep wondering as I follow this thread is the history. Did your puppy always act uncomfortable around children, or is this a pretty drastic change in behavior for him? I mean he's been with you for 4+ months right? 

Resource gaurding can seemingly come out of nowhere, and it requires at least a basic understanding of the dog's perspective to resolve usually. I've always treated this kind of behavior with a combination of conditioning coupled with corrections, because it's important, IMO, to communicate that the behavior is unacceptable, while also showing the dog that it is unnecessary. And when I say corrections, I mean start with a low key, quiet no, you don't want to further threaten a dog that already feels threatened...just to let them know it's not okay!

That being said, keying in on a child playing in her front yard two doors down, has nothing to do with resource gaurding, so my question would be what happened with this dog to cause such a dramatic shift in how he views kids?


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## GreenMountain (Mar 10, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> The thing I keep wondering as I follow this thread is the history. Did your puppy always act uncomfortable around children, or is this a pretty drastic change in behavior for him? I mean he's been with you for 4+ months right?
> 
> Resource gaurding can seemingly come out of nowhere, and it requires at least a basic understanding of the dog's perspective to resolve usually. I've always treated this kind of behavior with a combination of conditioning coupled with corrections, because it's important, IMO, to communicate that the behavior is unacceptable, while also showing the dog that it is unnecessary. And when I say corrections, I mean start with a low key, quiet no, you don't want to further threaten a dog that already feels threatened...just to let them know it's not okay!
> 
> That being said, keying in on a child playing in her front yard two doors down, has nothing to do with resource gaurding, so my question would be what happened with this dog to cause such a dramatic shift in how he views kids?


He never acted uncomfortable around kids until the bone incident. I still didn't let the kids get in his face or anything like that, but he seemed completely fine with them. And even after the bone incident, it's not like he was seeking out my son to go after or anything like that. Weeks passed with no issue and then the barking thing towards my son the other day, and then the growling at the kid in the front yard.

I honestly have no idea what could have happened. He is really never unsupervised except for maybe like 10 minutes a day in the yard, and there are no kids on either side or anything like that.

I really wish I knew what caused this change in him because I am coming up completely empty of ideas.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, how much risk are you willing to take?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I like to keep it real simple when I look at my dogs. Change comes with maturity. Good and bad. Comet mentioned something thats about as deep as I get into things. She phrased it different, but it comes down to you can't change their temperament. You can change how they behave. You do all the training with him. It could be as simple as he looks at kids as competing for your attention. With mine, it comes down to I don't care how they perceive that, they're going to behave. 

I'm a firm believer that some dogs are naturally good kid dogs, and some aren't. You aren't going to change that by throwing them treats. My thought is that just focuses their attention on the kids that much more and its too easy to in some ways reward what you don't actually want. I'd rather make sure I've got obedience and a natural indifference as much as possible. Then if there's any actual tension or possible conflict, its obvious to you. Its like a little reset so you don't spend your time wondering what you may have missed 3 months ago.

I wouldn't look for a muzzle to cover for obedience either. Obedience is the most important piece in everything I do with my dogs. One of mine is what I would call a nerve bag. The dumbest things in the world bother him. But from the day I brought him home he was respectful of my kids and he knows how to behave. Your dog may be similar, or he may not be. But like you mentioned that separating them wasn't so bad, its not that hard to add in some obedience. Don't demand look at me or press for too much, nice, calm manners that show some self control and that he can relax around your kids. Anything that doesn't focus his hard attention on or excitement about things you don't want it on.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This is such a fraught topic, I'd really urge the OP to find an experienced trainer to help. Maybe someone on this board has recommendations. 

I don't like just throwing treats at a problem, I think that can cause issues as soon as the dog isn't in "food drive" (for lack of a better term). Basically food is diverting attention from the problem. Food could be used to reward the dog for good behavior- like calmness around the kids- but not as a bandaid to cover up bad behaviors. They will just fester and explode when the stars align the wrong way. 

This is one of those "come to Jesus" type behaviors that needs to be stopped completely. But it is really hard to know how bad it is without seeing the dog. Some dogs are supremely tolerant of kids, others are not, and while I might take some minor chances with pup-dog intros, a puppy knows exactly how to appease an older dog (tummy up, going limp) while a child is likely to run or make prey noises which is exactly wrong (from the dog's viewpoint). 

My point is, this isn't a situation where I'd think, eh, the dog just needs to sniff the kid over and all will be fine. Or maybe break the ice by playing fetch. It's just way too risky. 

OP- are you prepared to keep kids and dogs separate for a good while, even life?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Just reading Steve's post, and I think something really important is that you want to basically train the opposite of drive. You want obedience to be all about channeling and controlling his arousal so it doesn't explode toward the kids.

It's very possible, but a trainer can help you out with this, because otherwise it's confusing to explain.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Arousal is a good way to describe some things. Its the opposite of what you want around the kids, but its great when its on cue. When you can them its time to be excited and now its time to settle, you can control a lot.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Could your 8 year old son have secretly abused him is some way? Does the dog seem different to him? Its just a thought.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> The thing I keep wondering as I follow this thread is the history. Did your puppy always act uncomfortable around children, or is this a pretty drastic change in behavior for him? I mean he's been with you for 4+ months right?
> 
> Resource gaurding can seemingly come out of nowhere, and it requires at least a basic understanding of the dog's perspective to resolve usually. I've always treated this kind of behavior with a combination of conditioning coupled with corrections, because it's important, IMO, to communicate that the behavior is unacceptable, while also showing the dog that it is unnecessary. And when I say corrections, I mean start with a low key, quiet no, you don't want to further threaten a dog that already feels threatened...just to let them know it's not okay!
> 
> That being said, keying in on a child playing in her front yard two doors down, has nothing to do with resource gaurding, so my question would be what happened with this dog to cause such a dramatic shift in how he views kids?


Could your 8 year old son have secretly abused to the dog? Has the dogs attitude towards him changed at all? The little girl in her yard- he did not just bark, he also lunged- right?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

No one, without seeing the dog personally, can give you advice that is accurate. But I can tell you this, from what you've said my guess would be that it's more likely a perception/behavioural issue than temperment or any kind of change due to maturation. When I said it's important to have a basic understanding of the dog's perspective, I meant the why more than the what. It's not so important to know the exact event that caused the problem as it is to understand the "motivation" for the dog behind the problem behavior. 

I've yet to see a dog that changes its temperment drastically while maturing. Sure you see many behavioral changes, but not kid tolerant then suddenly kid intolerant overnight. The initial event was resource motivated, but now it sounds like the dog is maybe generalizing that to all kids in any scenario pose a threat. Most likely that's due to your handling, and I don't mean that offensively! It's not like you're doing anything wrong, it's just that dogs read body language much better than we do! So when you're tense, they look around to find out why. 

As others have advised, you need a breed experienced trainer to help you. And by all means keep your little one and this pup separated! For now to be safe, after working with a trainer you'll be in a much more knowledgeable about the signs to look for. At 7 months I wouldn't be so quick as to suggest that any problem he has currently would be forever, but getting beyond this will take some time and work. Keep looking for a trainer, and most importantly keep the kids, and the dog, safe!


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

I have been following this thread for a while, yet I do not have the experience or knowledge to help with your situation as many others here. Everytime I read it, it sounds so weird, not that I do not believe it, it is just that I do not fully understand it. I might be getting lost in translation. 

So, I might share what it was for me being a kid in a house with dogs. First of all I am 25 and mexican (I live with my parents as is common here). I was 8 and my sister after me 5, when my dad brought his second GSD (he had a GSD mix before that, but they rehomed him when I was like 2 years old, because even when we adored each other and kissed through the screen door, things got difficult for my family and they gave him to a friend of the them), anyway, this second GSD was the first purebred my dad had, he was a working line dark sable, we got him when he was around 5 months, my uncle bought him along with two other siblings from the same litter. So by the time he got to my house he had good social skills and a bite inhibition in a great place. 

My sister and I were not allowed to play with him when an adult was not around. One day we did it, and he bit my sister's dress and made a hole on it. My sister always brings that story up, but in a good light. He was playing, he meant no harm, but he was rough. He got a correction and some time out for that. When he got to be between one and two years old, my dad and uncles allowed him to lick and touch my toddler cousins. He would lick their heads and stand by them as if he was their protector. My dad was and has always been really strict with dogs, but he adores them, and Blacky was probably his favorite dog ever, he was a great dog (the reason my sister and I always dreamed with having a GSD again). 

We had a poodle at some point as well. He had odd social skills around dogs, but grew up around kids so he adored children till the day he died. But he had resource agression, he would not hurt people, but was really protective of his food, he growled at me and my sister a several times while trying to even touch him when he was eating or touch his bowl. But he was harmless. 

We got Odham (our puppy right now), no other dogs are here but him. He is gonna be 5 months in a week I think. He is a show line, male puppy, trying to finally get him from being a landshark though, he has more drives than we believed at first guess, but we would not return him to his breeder for that. He has drives for food more than for his toys. Unlike our working line, he got here younger and from a smaller litter, so we had to work with his biting and nipping. He never bites my dad nor my mom, in fact when my dad gets his hand inside Odham's mouth he has a soft mouth for him (just for him). Now I have a third sister that is 9 years old, Natalia, and she gets bitten or just nipped every now and then (but more than my 22 year old sister and I). Natalia literally pretends to be a dog since he got here, and taught him to bark, so our dog obviously believes she is a sibling of his haha, she gets bitten when the play "roña" which she is always advised not to cause is a rough game even with kids, and bubbles (cause they always try to catch the same bubble, one with the hand and the other with the mouth). We try to control their playing time together, cause once he has played for long, he gets over stimulated and does not listen much anymore. But he adores her, and she sneaks treats and berries for him, and they are always hugging each other. Yet, he gets a strong NO and time out or a strong correction when he gets to nip her, "biting" is unnaceptable according to my dad (and the trainers we asked). But he has never growled at Natalia.

After my story, my long story, which I apologize for, all I can say, is I do believe your dog is "fixable", he is really young. I had met dogs that hate kids, but most have been raised in homes with bad-angry adults and no socialization. I would not blame you for rehoming him either, my parents did they same at some point, because it was not the right time and they had to put children first, young children are harder to control around puppies and so are the puppies. Again, your children come first. Sometimes that is the right call I guess. It does not meant there is something wrong with you. 

By this time, I believe all dogs are different and they come with different characteristics and behaviours, none is perfect, and sometimes we are the catalyst for their "problems". If you were anywhere near the border you could get a great trainer by a cheaper price (we do have experienced people here ***REMOVED BY MODERATOR***), the cheaper price is because of the translation of dollars and pesos. 

https://www.facebook.com/rafa.zavalaschvalleverde

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1584807426

The last one charges pretty high in pesos, but he has "fixed" some dogs that were quite a thing from people I know. But I know you are nowhere near the border, just wanted to share those two. I hope someone can give you some real advice and you find a good trainer near you.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more subtle signs of at least resource guarding prior to these two incidents. 

That is one reason why putting a muzzle on the dog and trying to work through this on your own is a bit scary to me. If you miss some subtleties and then think you're good, but you're not.

Even saying we are going to muzzle the dog and feed it treats...well food is what caused the dog to be aggressive toward the kid....and if it was not handled right I could almost see the dog thinking every time my people feed me this kid is hovering and it makes me mad....

i don't know. O.P, I hope you have been able to find a trainer you can afford to come and see the dynamic in your home and help you work with the dog.


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## Jake78 (Feb 24, 2012)

@GreenMountain Larry Krohn is in Kentucky. If you want to check him out prior, he's on YouTube as "Larry Krohn" has a ton of videos him working his own and other people's dogs, and his website is pakmasters.com He has a new Malinois female pup and a grown Malinois male named Luca, you can find examples of Luca's work on his YouTube channel. Luca's obedience is incredible. Larry has two children so maybe he'd be familiar with some of those issues. If I lived closer, I'd take Wolfgang to see him. Good luck. 





GreenMountain said:


> I was hoping that someone might be able to shed some light on this situation. This may be long so bear with me.
> 
> Apollo is 7 months old. We got him when he was just under 3 months old from one of my husband's coworkers who had only had him for a couple of weeks and decided he was too much of a responsibility. I work on training with him daily. He gets lots of exercise most days. We go for hikes, we go for walks every day rain or shine. We play fetch and incorporate training into it. He has a lot of puppy in him still but I really am working on making him a pleasant dog to live with. I dedicate entire evenings multiple times a week to only focus on him and his training. We have had two private trainers come to the house as well as attended a puppy class and an obedience class.
> 
> ...


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## MacD (Feb 8, 2014)

I haven't been around for ages but I want to tell the OP my story .. I took in a 7 month old GSD from a family with 3 young girls. When I picked him up he was playing with the children but his guard hairs were up when the youngest child interacted with him. I adopted him thinking that because he showed control around the youngest child who was gouging at eyes and pulling on his lips that he was child proof .. not so. He never tolerated children well and has always reacted around them, on the street. I spent hours in front of a daycare when the kids were out, giving him treats when he was non-reactive to no avail and removing him when he did react badly. He was only OK in that daycare setting, still acting aggressively if a child came near his space when out walking. 
I moved back to my homeland and I have an 11 y.o grandson and my dog will try anything to get to him and it's not play he wants. He would hurt my grandson. Now I keep them totally separated which is easy as my grandson is only over one day a week. If I had young children I would have to either re-home him to a trusted person or put him to sleep. Please understand, I love my dog but I love my grandson more. 
Yes I worked with one of the best trainers and followed their recommendations but there is no changing him. I tried treats and a come to Jesus moments - many times and nothing works. With the exception of children, my boy is very obedient and has bullet proof recall and down stay and many other commands. Throw a child in the mix and it all changes. 
Honestly, I wish I had never gotten him. He is so smart, has advanced training and displays perfect control until it comes to children. If I knew then what I know now ... he is 5 - I wouldn't have him. The stress when my grandson is out .. the sadness my grandson feels when my dog won't accept him and growls and barks so aggressively breaks my heart. No, my dog can never get near my grandson as I made sure of that but even from his large run, he is hurting my grandson. 
I know you love your children and your dog but think long and hard about restricting your life and your childrens ... honestly I would re-home him as I don't think you will ever feel relaxed no matter what training your dog gets. 
I wish you the best of luck and a hug .. you went above and I think you have gone beyond what so many owners would do.


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