# Schutzhund vs protection training



## meldy

Is there a difference between Schutzhund/IPO and actual protection work? 
I thought they were the same thing until I saw posts on another thread that asked the OP if he was looking to do schutzhund or actual protection work.


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## Freddy

Totally different. Schutzhund/IPO is a sport that consists of 3 phases of training. Protection work would be one phase (protection and biting) with some secondary obedience for control. Many Schutzhund dogs would not have what it takes to be a protection dog.


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## DaniFani

Freddy said:


> Totally different. Schutzhund/IPO is a sport that consists of 3 phases of training. Protection work would be one phase (protection and biting) with some secondary obedience for control. Many Schutzhund dogs would not have what it takes to be a protection dog.


Lol, and many "protection dogs" wouldn't do a thing if pushed to the limit and trained/evaluated properly. There is just as much corruption, lies, and bad training/over priced dogs, in protection as there is in SchH. Two way street...all depends on who's training and how they are training.

To OP, they are different. IPO requires absolute precision and lots of time/energy. Protection doesn't require as much obedience, no tracking, and lots of people think different training and different "accomplishments" equal a protection dog....if that makes sense.

ETA: Didn't mean that as a slam to you at all, Freddy. It just seems that there is this constant one-upping and comparison between SchH and protection. There is crap in both venues, and dogs in both venues that aren't what their handlers think they are or aren't capable of what the handler presumes they are capable of. All about the training.


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## Freddy

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Schutzhund/IPO guy. They are different.

I also agree with what you are saying. Most sport dogs aren't put on hidden sleeves and suits. My group uses them.


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## meldy

So an IPO dog cant do actual real life protection work? 
Or just a protection dog cant do all the phases of IPO?


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## David Winners

meldy said:


> Is there a difference between Schutzhund/IPO and actual protection work?
> I thought they were the same thing until I saw posts on another thread that asked the OP if he was looking to do schutzhund or actual protection work.


If you look at the end result of the training, an IPO routine or a PPD, you may understand the difference in training. One is a set routine. The other is an entirely different product.

Not to say that dogs can't be cross trained in both.


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## Freddy

I think some can do both, but a lot of IPO dogs see the exercises as a game. Protection is a different situation, and requires different training. 

Some IPO dogs can easily do protection work, and I'm sure a lot of protection dogs could do IPO. 

As DaniFani said, there are a lot of people out there claiming to have what they do not.


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## meldy

Freddy said:


> I think some can do both, but a lot of IPO dogs see the exercises as a game. Protection is a different situation, and requires different training.
> 
> Some IPO dogs can easily do protection work, and I'm sure a lot of protection dogs could do IPO.
> 
> As DaniFani said, there are a lot of people out there claiming to have what they do not.


 
Please break this down for a newbie >.< I thought the whole training process was treated as a game just to build confidence in the dog?

Im new, obviously, and just learning (I don't even have a dog yet) but I sorta always thought IPO translated into real world skills. It sounds a bit like it's just a performance for titles and ribbons? At least the protection end of it. I should think that the obedience and tracking would be useful anywhere (should tracking be required at least)

Im not trying to insult IPO people, just trying to sort out the differences in the sports and what they actually mean as far as real world skills.


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## Freddy

Maybe a better way to put it is how people fitness train. Some run a couple miles a couple of times a week. Others crosstrain, often doing over 100 miles a week between running and biking. 

There are certainly ornamental titles in IPO, usually obtained by someone who wants to be able to breed their dog. There are also people who are very serious about IPO, and bring more pressure on the dog to invoke a more serious response. Not all IPO dogs can handle this. When done correctly, an IPO dog will be balanced and confident, and more than able to protect you should the occasion arise. 

If there is no measure of success, no benchmark (titles and scores) in IPO, how are you able to measure your success relative to others? 

I have not done formal protection training but I think the scope of the training is much narrower than advanced IPO training.


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## Merciel

meldy said:


> I thought the whole training process was treated as a game just to build confidence in the dog?
> 
> Im new, obviously, and just learning (I don't even have a dog yet) but I sorta always thought IPO translated into real world skills. It sounds a bit like it's just a performance for titles and ribbons? At least the protection end of it. I should think that the obedience and tracking would be useful anywhere (should tracking be required at least)
> 
> Im not trying to insult IPO people, just trying to sort out the differences in the sports and what they actually mean as far as real world skills.


IPO protection _can be_ trained as something like a game, and a lot of foundational puppy work starts out this way to build correct, safe mechanical skills (like teaching an agility dog how to take jumps safely).

It can _also_ be trained as something much more closely approximating a "real fight."

It can be approached as a sport where the primary concern is getting the highest possible score for trophies and podium placements.

And it can be approached as a breed test, or a foundation for various real-world skills, where perfect precision is less important than digging in and seeing how your dog responds to different kinds of pressure and challenge.

The reason it gets so confusing and complicated is because IPO is all of these things at once. It is a sport that means different things to different people. I think that is pretty appropriate, given that the German Shepherd breed itself means different things to different people. There are a lot of parallels in how various camps wrangle about what the true soul of the endeavor should be.


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## meldy

For scoring is there a difference between how well a dog that is trained to put on a good show and a dog that is trained to dig in and take it seriously will score? 
Or does this depend on the judging as well and how they view the sport?


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## Freddy

That's a tough question, and I will look forward to others answers to it. 

For me there are too many variables. Is the serious dog going to be on the edge of control in protection and fail to out? Will he be flat in obedience? Is the ornamental dog going to pop off the sleeve early because he didn't want to be there in the first place? 

A well trained dog that has had good training will score well whether he's black, sable, black and red, or pink.


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## David Taggart

What makes Schutzhund and PP dogs different are two fundamental things.
1. Stimulus
2. Environment
Schutzhund protection could be trained by using +R only. Its basics lays in using your dog's positive emotions on every step with totally friendly attitude to humans. A good Schutzhund dog is quite easy to recognize when he is still a young puppy by excessive playfulness, it is easy to make him ball mad. The training starts when the decoy plays war-of -tug with your puppy and you control him emotionally for doing right things holding the end of the lead. As long as training progresses and your dog matures, he learns to interact between you and the decoy, work under distractions and stay patient. The distractions (including stroking the dog on sides or on his head) are working as positive stimulus as well, nobody wants to cause pain to the dog. There are so called "good dogs" in Schutzhund, they are total optimists, always in a good mood during training, because they get what they want - their game. *Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey* on the sleeve and recognize the whole training session as a play when his mental stability is the most on the check, thus IPO illustrates nothing else but partnership. Though wearing a protective suit is a rule in Europe, it is absolutely unnecessary, a Schutzhund dog of 18 months would hesitate to bite flesh, and, if he did - he would be very confused. Agressive dogs are disqualified, because they take the whole issue too seriously as a real threat and could be dangerous to public in mid-training period.
Schutzhund dogs get used to certain environment. All dogs, in fact, aquire different attitudes to different environments and behave accordingly. An open field with a man, certain smells, sounds and presence of barking dogs set your dog's mind absolutely unmistakingly. Many Schutzhund trainers speculate what makes their dogs excited and how they possibly know where they would be taken, but somehow dogs expect their next visit to Schutzhund club and get agitated the day before the event (may be they know the week days).
Training PPD has different tasks. The dog should be able to protect you, not to play games. From the very beginning the puppy is irritated over food and toys, and should always win the battle with human. They are trained to recognize certain postures and human body language in order to recognise the threat, they should know, that human agression is not a joke. The dog should learn to fight for his life and not to be distracted by pain. There are many types of PP training, from simply training one dog to bite left hand (God knows what for) and chasing like in a police pursuit - to training two dogs to rip a human apart, biting different body parts on command, dealing with guns and knives. Some training methods of the latter could be very cruel to the dog. The environment must vary as much as possible, as well as the time of the day. Nobody trains a PP dog just for fun and your personal ambitions satisfaction like a Schutzhund dog, people train them to protect their dignity, their own life and lives of their family. *Your PP dog becomes your weapon*.


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## DaniFani

David, I had no idea you trained/had experience in IPO and/or protection! How is that going for you? Where is your dog currently in the training process? Any titles?


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## Freddy

*Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey* 

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!


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## GatorDog

Freddy said:


> *Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey*
> 
> YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!


They prey? Like pray? 

Nope, not exactly..:headbang:


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## David Taggart

Ask any decoy, he will tell you what the game is about, and what he is doing with the dogs who were biting him after training.


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## David Taggart

> Any titles?


It's all in the past, and no reason to talk about it. Our attitudes change as we evolve for better(!). But, with all my heart, I will share experience whatever I have with IPO people and warn those who want to train their dogs as PP dogs.


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## meldy

So where does ring sport factor into this where they have to run down a 'bad guy'
How does that compare? 

Im not looking for a personal protection dog. Im just fascinated now that they are all so differently trained apparently. 

I cannot see how irritating a dog from puppyhood is going to create anything but a monster? Maybe Im out in left field but isn't that just instigating aggression and not training at all?


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## Castlemaid

People often over-simplify the SchH/IPO vs. PPD training and ideals. It isn't as simple and cut and dry as IPO is a game the dog is not serious, and a PPD is a loaded weapon. 

You CAN have a dog in IPO with not a serious protective bone in its body go through the whole protection training in prey drive, trial, and get good scores. That does not mean that IPO is all about playing tug with your dog. It is a perfectly good base for starting young dogs and bring out the fight and seriousness in them. A good decoy will adjust to what the dog needs to make it look its best. A good decoy can see the dogs that are serious and push them to develop their fight and raise their confidence.

If people are interested in protection training, IPO is a great place to start and learn. It takes hands-on experience and time to develop the eye that can differentiate between a dog working in prey with the decoy not putting much pressure on the dog, and one that has heart and willingness to engage for real. 

My mixed breed wasn't very serious, but I still learned a lot working with her, and we both had a blast. Gryff has a lot of real potential, has been worked by a number of trainers that train police K9's, so he has been pushed and challenged (at my request) to see what is in him, and he did well. 

Two different dogs, worked to the level of their potential. That is what you should expect from any training, whether PPD or IPO. 

My suggestion still stands: get involved in IPO to get a taste of protection training, and if you find that you have a dog with a lot of potential, and you are interested in pursuing more advanced training, they you already have a great foundation to build on.


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## meldy

IPO is definitely the first stop for me. As soon as the local club reopens in the spring I intend to watch some of their training sessions just to get a feel for the whole process.
Long before my puppy even arrives (or is even conceived)

I also want to look into French Ring. I like the involvement and intricacy of it (if that makes sense?) The more complicated something is the more I want to try it. Although that might not be the best reason for being interested in something that's generally the reason I research anything. 

All of this will be sorted for me, personally, long before I settle on what I want to do and get a dog for myself. 

I just wanted general information on how it all worked =)


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## Freddy

Good post, Castlemaid.


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## Castlemaid

I love how modest David Taggart is about all his training accomplishments.


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## meldy

Castlemaid said:


> I love how modest David Taggart is about all his training accomplishments.


Pretty sure I figured that whole situation out already  
Thanks for the info!! I like black and white lol but I guess I'll have to start processing some gray area eventually :blush:


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## David Taggart

> As soon as the local club reopens in the spring I intend to watch some of their training sessions just to get a feel for the whole process.


I suggest you to apply as a volunteer helper and see if you like people there. A club is a great thing, you would not only learn a lot, but select a trainer you can work with, sometimes the quietest and seemingly small people happen to be the best working with sports dogs - that is the way to develop your communication skills.


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## Freddy

GatorDog said:


> They prey? Like pray?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, not exactly..:headbang:




Just quoting David, not my words.



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## meldy

David Taggart said:


> I suggest you to apply as a volunteer helper and see if you like people there. A club is a great thing, you would not only learn a lot, but select a trainer you can work with, sometimes the quietest and seemingly small people happen to be the best working with sports dogs - that is the way to develop your communication skills.


 
I think I communicate pretty well already but thanks for the tip...


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## mycobraracr

meldy said:


> Is there a difference between Schutzhund/IPO and actual protection work?
> I thought they were the same thing until I saw posts on another thread that asked the OP if he was looking to do schutzhund or actual protection work.



Yes there is a difference. Not all schutzhund dogs are prey monsters and not all PPD's are baby eating man stoppers. I train and compete in multiple sports. Some I feel are more "real" than others, but that doesn't mean that they all don't serve a purpose. EVERY sport is very difficult at high levels. So I wouldn't put too much thought into which one is "more difficult".


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## Packen

David Taggart said:


> Schutzhund dogs don't protect anything, they prey


Does not make sense to me! Here is a SchH dog on hidden sleeve, is he preying? lol. I feel for the noobs who listen to such advice and believe it.

GnashCar - YouTube


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## David Taggart

> Here is a SchH dog on hidden sleeve, is he preying?


Of course he does. Wolves don't suffocate a buffalo, they rip him apart and eat while he is alive. Try to watch a video with a wolf hanging on a buffalo, and you will see a split image, a complete replica of a Schuts dog. Try to rip a ball on a rope out of a puppy's mouth - you will see the same expression in the puppy's eyes as that of the wolf in the video. But, seems, dogs do understand it as a game. There are many opinions about it, the majority so far came to a conclusion that the reason why dogs are obsessed with round objects like balls and the decoy's sleeve - that is because we keep their mentality undeveloped by feeding them and keeping them happy. They remain puppies to the rest of their lives, that's why they still play being already old. Adult wolves don't play, while Schutzhund dogs play absolutely happily with other dogs, as well as they play ball with their owner.
PP dogs don't play, that is the known fact. They turn into adults with the very first hard blow on their ribs.


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## GatorDog

David Taggart said:


> Of course he does. Wolves don't suffocate a buffalo, they rip him apart and eat while he is alive. Try to watch a video with a wolf hanging on a buffalo, and you will see a split image, a complete replica of a Schuts dog. Try to rip a ball on a rope out of a puppy's mouth - you will see the same expression in the puppy's eyes as that of the wolf in the video. But, seems, dogs do understand it as a game. There are many opinions about it, the majority so far came to a conclusion that the reason why dogs are obsessed with round objects like balls and the decoy's sleeve - that is because we keep their mentality undeveloped by feeding them and keeping them happy. They remain puppies to the rest of their lives, that's why they still play being already old. Adult wolves don't play, while Schutzhund dogs play absolutely happily with other dogs, as well as they play ball with their owner.
> PP dogs don't play, that is the known fact. They turn into adults with the very first hard blow on their ribs.


Seriously? 

What is this? Forget it. No point talking in circles.


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## boomer11

the term personal protection is so vague. not to mention there is no set standard. i could show my friends my dog biting a sleeve and doing some fancy obedience and tell them he is personal protection trained and will die for me etc and 100% of them would believe me.


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## Packen

GatorDog said:


> Seriously?
> 
> What is this? Forget it. No point talking in circles.


Exactly


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## David Winners

David Taggart said:


> There are many opinions about it, the majority so far came to a conclusion that the reason why dogs are obsessed with round objects like balls and the decoy's sleeve - that is because we keep their mentality undeveloped by feeding them and keeping them happy.


Can you reference some material that points to this conclusion?


Dogs stay juvenile, as compared to wolves, because it is a product of generations of domestication. It is a physical change that takes place in a species as multiple generations of breeding take place where the less aggressive members of the species are successful in reproduction. This has nothing to do with us feeding our puppies.

To state that all SchH dogs are treating bitework like a game is terribly incorrect.

Adult dogs play because of domestication over the last 30,000 years. Their brains are different than that of wolves. They cease to develop at a more juvenile state then wolves. This, among many other reasons, is why comparing the domestic dog to wolves, especially in matters concerning behavior, is faulty and inaccurate.


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## crackem

David Winners said:


> Can you reference some material that points to this conclusion?
> 
> 
> Dogs stay juvenile, as compared to wolves, because it is a product of generations of domestication. It is a physical change that takes place in a species as multiple generations of breeding take place where the less aggressive members of the species are successful in reproduction. This has nothing to do with us feeding our puppies.
> 
> To state that all SchH dogs are treating bitework like a game is terribly incorrect.
> 
> Adult dogs play because of domestication over the last 30,000 years. Their brains are different than that of wolves. They cease to develop at a more juvenile state then wolves. This, among many other reasons, is why comparing the domestic dog to wolves, especially in matters concerning behavior, is faulty and inaccurate.


pretty much


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## David Taggart

> all SchH dogs


Of course, the wolves are not the dogs, but, which dogs are you talking about? GSD is not only the closest breed to the wolves according to the words of its founder, but GSDs were interbred with wolves continuously to produce fresher breeding lines. American Working line is one of them. There are many traces of common behaviour in wolves and GSDs including urge to get a higher social status, or shyness at the early age. We cannot judge the breed by some dogs, as well as we cannot judge the nation by some individuals, so, saying that not all dogs are this way or the other doesn't help to build up a collective image. There are common features for Schutz dogs which differentuate them from PP dogs. I see it as the the dog's development splits at some point, Schuts dogs and PP dogs are trained in the same way, until...I wouldn't hesitate to say this: a Schutz dog becomes a part of a team in a pleasant game, and PP dog finally has to realise that he has no choice but to fight alone. I think, both issues are preprogrammed in the dog - he preys on a buffalo, and protects his pack from bears.


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## crackem

ahhhh, i'm not even sure what to say. according to the words of the founder, wolves add nothing to working dog breeding. 2nd many fine working dogs don't have an urge to get a higher social status any more than the hundreds or thousands of other breeds or mixes. I think shy puppies turn into crappers for the most part.


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## David Winners

GatorDog said:


> Seriously?
> 
> What is this? Forget it. No point talking in circles.


Wiser words were never spoken.


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## Packen

There is some serious promise in this thread. I will keep checking from time to time and learn the nuggets of wisdom.


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## David Taggart

Maybe, they use only brave wolves for producing new breeding lines, I don't know, everything I know the GSD-wolf hybrid doesn't come into a breeding programme before twelve generations of his offspring were tested and proved of having good qualities. 

This word "shy" is very confusing on its own. My dog, while young, was hiding in the house, and she was hiding behind my back whenever a stranger appeared on the horizon. A little bit of encouragement - and shyness dissapeared. I hear from people from time to time that their little GSD is shy, but very rarely the same about a grown up dog. I think, the matter lays whether or not the breeder provided enough of human contact to the young puppy(s). I understand as something truly difficult thing to do, because a very young puppy should be kept in more or less sterile conditions.

Please, I didn't want to divert from the subject, otherwise the question about training will turn into a question about breeding.


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## David Winners

Bookmarked

David Winners


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## TexasCrane

David Taggart said:


> Please, I didn't want to divert from the subject, otherwise the question about training will turn into a question about breeding.


By all means, enlighten us... opcorn:


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## RocketDog

Packen said:


> There is some serious promise in this thread. I will keep checking from time to time and learn the nuggets of wisdom.


You naughty thing. 
:nono:


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## meldy

Holy frig now Im totally lost...:crazy:

So the basic assertation is now that GSD's...cuz they're wolves (huh?) don't strangle they eat things alive. Not even sure what that has to do with the difference between the two types of sport? (can I call PPD a sport?)
So then wouldn't a schutz dog and a PPD dog approach this so called 'game' the same way? We are talking about two training goals that are dealing with the same genetics. 

"There are common features for Schutz dogs which differentuate them from PP dogs. I see it as the the dog's development splits at some point, Schuts dogs and PP dogs are trained in the same way, until...I wouldn't hesitate to say this: a Schutz dog becomes a part of a team in a pleasant game, and PP dog finally has to realise that he has no choice but to fight alone. I think, both issues are preprogrammed in the dog - he preys on a buffalo, and protects his pack from bears."

I thought the training split...not the development. Isn't that implication that PPD dogs (or conversely Schutz dogs) are more developed/evolved than their counterpart? 
I thought they were just differently trained (or at least that was what I was led to believe for the first two pages :headbang: of this thread)
The implication here is that Schutz dogs are 'useless' in real life as they'll just look to the pack to save them. Correct? If this (protection of the pack) is a pre-programmed trait in all dogs that doesn't even make sense...

Ive already learned to skip past certain posts but this would be a nightmare for someone who doesn't know that.
Just sayin....


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## Liesje

meldy said:


> Ive already learned to skip past certain posts but this would be a nightmare for someone who doesn't know that.
> Just sayin....


Pretty much *sigh* Sorry your thread got derailed!


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## meldy

Liesje said:


> Pretty much *sigh* Sorry your thread got derailed!


 
All good! It makes for an interesting read anyway


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## meldy

Ok so can a dog switch over from Schutzhund to PPD?


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## Castlemaid

Yes, if the dog has the right stuff. SchH will allow you to see if the dog has the correct temperament to move on to PPD stuff, and will have had a good foundation base to work from. 

The one issue though is that some dogs with the potential to be PPDs, if kept on the sleeve for too long (like years), may be very uncomfortable going to a suit or a hidden sleeve - it's been a game for too long, they haven't really been challenged, and they are just too used to biting equipment. The same dog, if progressed from sleeve to suit to hidden sleeve earlier, may not have any issues at all. 

Other dogs will transition easily, regardless of how long they have been doing sleeve work. If your goal is PPD, absolutely no harm in starting in SchH. SchH will also give you and your dog a solid base of obedience and control that will be a great advantage for any type of future training you wish to pursue.


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## Freddy

I think one thing that's been pointed out on this thread is that within each discipline there is a large variance depending on the dog and the nature of training. Within IPO, you have dogs that bring natural civil aggression that would be perfectly suited for PP. You also have dogs that wouldn't know what to do if the subject wasn't wearing a sleeve. Although I've not done PP I'm sure the same variance leads to dogs with natural ability and confidence as well as dogs that made it through their training by realizing flight was not an option so they fought. 

IMO, a dog can easily switch if it's the right dog.


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## meldy

Im not entirely sure what my goal is yet.
I really REALLY like French Ring  (haven't looked at other Ring sport yet) but that's just from google and youtube videos. 

Most of the dogs Ive owned have been naturally protective but we always had farms dogs. Great Pyrennes, St bernardXMastiff, one GSD, a malamute...all defending our property from anything and anyone to the extent we used to have a sign at the bottom of our driveway warning people to honk for assistance before they got out of their vehicle. 
These same dogs that ran bears off the property would let my four kids crawl all over them and maul them half to death and our chickens and ducks wandered freely (not so much with the malamute >.<)
Personally, I think any confident dog will defend it's pack naturally.

But I did think Schutzhund was more of an attack on command type of sport. That was one of the reasons I hesitated to get involved or pursue it...just because I don't really need or want a loaded weapon (although I do smile at the thought of having a dog that will eat people. Don't ask me why!)

Just trying to sort out what is trained on command and what is the dog free thinking on it's own. Sounds like PPD is more of an independently thinking dog and a Schutzhund dog puts on a pretty show.

Much like a dressage horse and a warhorse. Same moves but totally different context.


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## Liesje

IMO, something like the SDA PA and P1 is more "attack on command" than SchH. In SchH you are sending your dog into a blind and he's just barking at a passive person while you are 100+ feet away, not giving any commands. In SDA you are turning your dog off and on. Sometimes you tell your dog to stay "off" even when the helper is actively threatening, other times to well your dog to be "on" when the helper is passive. You are controlling the dog rather than the actions of the helper controlling the dog, like in SchH if the helper moves, the dog bites. There's never a moving or threatening helper and a dog being told not to bite and there's never a time the helper is passive but the dog is told to alert or bite.


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## carmspack

David W not T said this

"Dogs stay juvenile, as compared to wolves, because it is a product of generations of domestication. It is a physical change that takes place in a species as multiple generations of breeding take place where the less aggressive members of the species are successful in reproduction. This has nothing to do with us feeding our puppies."

which is why dogs are successful and useful to us because that CO-DEPENDENCE allows for a co-operative partnership. We have dogs that will work for us willingly. A wolf would not .


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## meldy

Liesje said:


> IMO, something like the SDA PA and P1 is more "attack on command" than SchH. In SchH you are sending your dog into a blind and he's just barking at a passive person while you are 100+ feet away, not giving any commands. In SDA you are turning your dog off and on. Sometimes you tell your dog to stay "off" even when the helper is actively threatening, other times to well your dog to be "on" when the helper is passive. You are controlling the dog rather than the actions of the helper controlling the dog, like in SchH if the helper moves, the dog bites. There's never a moving or threatening helper and a dog being told not to bite and there's never a time the helper is passive but the dog is told to alert or bite.


 
Ok...now what is SDA PA and P1?

I actually didn't have an issue with anything Dave W said...was just questioning the statement that GSD's are wolf-hybrids (dave t) and wondering what that had to do with the difference between PPD and IPO.


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## Castlemaid

meldy, you were saying that you were in contact with a couple of the Sch/IPO clubs in Calgary - and Jason Giso does Modio/French Ring stuff with his Malinois. For max enjoyment, you should find a club that you enjoy and feel is a good fit for you people-wise and training philosophy wise. Might mean hanging out with different clubs for a bit until you find that fit, and go from there. The more experience you gain, the clearer your goals will be. 

You are actually quite lucky to have so many clubs and resources available to you, I'm totally jealous!


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## Liesje

SDA is a different organization that offers trials and titles in tracking, protection, and obedience. They have descriptions and videos on their org page. It is much more "real life" (for example for the PA test the dog is on a leash, like a dog would be if you were out on a walk and were threatened. For the FO - which is like their BH - there are practical exercises like loading into a vehicle, food refusal).

The problem I have with comparing things to "PPD" is that I don't know what PPD means. I don't think there is any one organization that governs the training and testing of "PPD" and titles as such. I've seen people ask their friend to agitate their dog on a slippery floor and when the dog hackles and barks, he's a "PPD".


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## meldy

Castlemaid said:


> meldy, you were saying that you were in contact with a couple of the Sch/IPO clubs in Calgary - and Jason Giso does Modio/French Ring stuff with his Malinois. For max enjoyment, you should find a club that you enjoy and feel is a good fit for you people-wise and training philosophy wise. Might mean hanging out with different clubs for a bit until you find that fit, and go from there. The more experience you gain, the clearer your goals will be.
> 
> You are actually quite lucky to have so many clubs and resources available to you, I'm totally jealous!


 
Im waiting for Jason's club to start up again in April =) Ive already talked to him! Great guy!! Im just a homework nut so trying to learn and process as much as I can before I show up at the club to watch and ask some poor bystander a million questions. Here at least I can ask and not be bothering one particular person as there is a wealth of info to learn from =)


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## carmspack

hope this gets the discussion perking along.

My fear with schutzhund is the need for this constant near manic "energy" for the sake of flashy appearance in trial, for the picture .
The training is for the picture , the image , not the real thing . 
The tracking looks good , but it isn't. The running down the field to catch a presented sleeve looks good but is not the same as tackling the man . 
Then you have service dogs and PPD (street ring - knpv - champagne) which try to simulate a contaminated field - which means people wandering around that are not the decoy, or multiple decoys , or working at a great distance , and be under control. 

Spoke to Journeys owner about this over the past week -- in schutzhund, if that is what you want to compete in the dog has to perform in a near mechanical manner. Hey, it's not just me saying this , in an article by Elmar Mannes the question arose about the 1/2 points here and there should a dog dare take a quick look at its environment. Mannes Aug 2008 SchH USA pg 65 regarding the machine like behavior (his words) "just take a look at very obedient dogs in protection and their hardness, the majority of those dogs are not strong enough for the high demands in the big events. It is normal for a strong dog to glance away to check the environment because they need to check things out for themselves"

In the L.E.T.S , test for Derrick , earned Felony 1 at 6 1/2 months , months not years , he did his urban track , downtown , with people walking toward him on the track , (because they didn't know there was one and it was in public) and he had to pass a group of young guys who had assembled with their boom boxes (different time guys) and a pot belly pig in a harness . He lifted his head , looked at the pig , head back down and continued the track . 

.......... could write the book on the differences in tracking alone .......

In personal protection you want the dog to be aware of the environment . In schH the dog is pretty well intensely focused and blinkered. 

A sport dog can pretty much live its life preparing for the rules and the points without much preparation or involvement with real life.
The PPD requires this as this is part of the challenge , same with any service dog - with or without protection. They need to be prepared for real life because that is where they will function. The sport dog could be kennel, house , field . 

In the "early socialization" thread I mentioned the need for quick, frequent , immediate rewards as incentive to work , both for the dogs in sport and for ourselves , the new crop of young people entering the work place -- . Well back in the day folks , herding was basically 24/7 / 365 - all weather , all conditions , all variations and multiple challenges to address all at one time requiring the dog to make decisions , like triage situation. The dog needed to be under control and have self initiative . Work was long, dirty and gruelling . 
Then you have this class of animals that are hyper aroused and "working breeds" get branded with being hyper , and forum members say they are running 4 hours a day to tire their dog (not necessary) . Not necessary, not hand in hand with working --


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## carmspack

meldy my comment "David W not T said this

"Dogs stay juvenile, as compared to wolves, because it is a product of generations of domestication. It is a physical change that takes place in a species as multiple generations of breeding take place where the less aggressive members of the species are successful in reproduction. This has nothing to do with us feeding our puppies."
my response ...........
which is why dogs are successful and useful to us because that CO-DEPENDENCE allows for a co-operative partnership. We have dogs that will work for us willingly. A wolf would not .

was in support of David W , so that Taggarts theory quote "
Originally Posted by *David Taggart*  
_There are many opinions about it, the majority so far came to a conclusion that the reason why dogs are obsessed with round objects like balls and the decoy's sleeve - that is because we keep their mentality undeveloped by feeding them and keeping them happy."_

_is just plain wrong in so many ways -----_

_I did laugh out loud when you said "So the basic assertation is now that GSD's...cuz they're wolves (huh?) don't strangle they eat things alive." I know . _


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## meldy

Where does Ring sport factor in?

By your description, Carmspack, I would be much more interested in PPD. (but I really don't need a bodyguard at all >.<)

Speaking with a trainer, his opinion is that if I want a dog I can take anywhere with me then 'real life' work is not the way to go. I did not ask him to elaborate on that. (I asked him about SDA which he had not heard of but he has heard of PSA) Im not going to mention names as he is not here to defend his opinion so I don't think that's fair.

I absolutely want a dog that I can take anywhere. Im looking for a full time sidekick first and foremost.


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> meldy my comment "David W not T said this
> 
> "Dogs stay juvenile, as compared to wolves, because it is a product of generations of domestication. It is a physical change that takes place in a species as multiple generations of breeding take place where the less aggressive members of the species are successful in reproduction. This has nothing to do with us feeding our puppies."
> my response ...........
> which is why dogs are successful and useful to us because that CO-DEPENDENCE allows for a co-operative partnership. We have dogs that will work for us willingly. A wolf would not .
> 
> was in support of David W , so that Taggarts theory quote "
> Originally Posted by *David Taggart*
> _There are many opinions about it, the majority so far came to a conclusion that the reason why dogs are obsessed with round objects like balls and the decoy's sleeve - that is because we keep their mentality undeveloped by feeding them and keeping them happy."_
> 
> _is just plain wrong in so many ways -----_
> 
> _I did laugh out loud when you said "So the basic assertation is now that GSD's...cuz they're wolves (huh?) don't strangle they eat things alive." I know . _


 
LOL ok..I wasn't sure if I had worded something weird or if I misunderstood what you meant.


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## Castlemaid

I think for a newbie, the learning curve is steep whether one goes the IPO, PSA, or real-life PPD/police work protection training stuff. The basics are all the same though. Your first year of training will be focus, engagement, imprinting obedience exercises, prey-drive grip and tug work. If you have a good trainer that gives you good basics, you'll be able to continue on in the direction you choose. 

The learning curve is HUGE - it took me a looooong time to understand what a "good bite" is. A long time to develop my eye and my ears to see and hear the difference between a dog working in prey, and a dog working in defense. A looooong time hands-on experience to have an inkling about what was going on during a training session - (I'm sure you'll pick it up faster, but it will still take a lot of time  ). Give yourself permission to learn as you go along, you don't have to try and 'get' it all even before you start. 

Right now, you don't even have a pup: pin-pointing the differences between the different protection disciplines is probably just an exercise in creating confusion and headaches. Plus, with Jason, if you say you are interested in doing more real-life scenarios and wanting your dog to gain PPD experience, he will work with you in that direction.


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## Chris Wild

As with all things, and as many have said in this thread, it depends on the dog and on the focus of the training. There are many IPO people who focus only on points, seek out the "manic" type dogs that have that extra flash. And there are many IPO people who seek out true working temperament and train for a more balanced approach that involves aggression and defense, not just prey, and if that means losing a point here or there in a trial and coming in behind the more specialized sporty type dogs, they are fine with that.

Likewise on the PPD side of things there are good, legitimate trainers producing sound dogs with strong protection skills. And there are a lot of crackpots training and peddling unstable fear biters as PPDs.

Visit clubs. Watch the training. Meet the dogs. Talk with the club members and the helper and find the group that fits your goals. You can't base the decision on generalzations of what PPD is like or what IPO is like. What they are like will vary widely based on the types of dogs and the training philosophy.


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## meldy

True..Im a bit of a research Nazi >.< It keeps me occupied for the most part.

For all I know, at this point, I wont even like IPO  and this is all redundant information. I should have a better idea in the coming months. Thus far I am more interested in a protection sport or some sort of rally obedience than in 'fun' things like flyball and agility.
But that's just so far...I started off fascinated by tracking and now Im here.

And learning all this stuff is interesting as heck!!


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## Castlemaid

> For all I know, at this point, I wont even like IPO ]


I think you might.  The training is fun and addictive!


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## carmspack

what ? "Speaking with a trainer, his opinion is that if I want a dog I can take anywhere with me then 'real life' work is not the way to go. I did not ask him to elaborate on that. " 
Why not? 
IF you want to take a dog everywhere than real life exposure is part of the dogs social experience. He gauges what is normal . 
By taking the dog "everywhere" that is normal to your lifestyle then you can observe the dog , understand it better , lead it through experience by example .

I loved French Ring -- only problem was opportunities to trial. I did my Brevet , ready for One and then there was a N A R A leadership quarrel and all clubs (sulked) my words, some disappeared, some went on hiatus . I did Campagne and that was even better than Ring .
Cheryl Carlson was one of the defense of handler decoys , discharging the gun right at ear level -- ears ringing for days -- 
food refusal , guard of object , positions, muzzle work , retrieve, directional retrieve out of water -- no collars no equipment , a group of people following like a golf tournament , kiddies ridding bicycles on the hosting farmers drive way , cats popping out of the corn fields, dogs wandering around --- on a blazing record breaking hot day !

I loved it . Actually looking in to Ring again with Esa Rasimus , whose club held the first trial in Ontario after 15 years (2011) - (so I pretty well participated in the last one before this - see how bad it gets !) . I met Esa at Jerry Cudahy's , local to me , and Jean Dominique DeBord available all time as he was a live in house guest .
In the Campagne I made 3rd , the water event was taught the night before -- yes the night before --- so hot , so dehydrated, so migrainey , and yes I would do it all over again !!!!


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## meldy

I didn't ask him to elaborate Carmspack. I don't know why. I feel a bit sheepish drilling him when I haven't met him and don't really know if I will even be a part of his whole universe yet. I asked about SDA and that was his response.

I love the look and intricacy of Ring but, as has been pointed out (and I acknowledge) I am new and just starting out so I worry that might be a lot more to bite off than I can realistically do with my first dog.


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## carmspack

this "As with all things, and as many have said in this thread, it depends on the dog and on the focus of the training. There are many IPO people who focus only on points, seek out the "manic" type dogs that have that extra flash." was a concern of Elmar Mannes . The dogs are changing to fit the program .


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## carmspack

meldy , do you have a dog?


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## meldy

Castlemaid said:


> I think you might.  The training is fun and addictive!


 
Good to know! Im very competitive, even with myself, and LOVE a challenge.


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> meldy , do you have a dog?


Not yet. Im hoping to find a sport I like and purchase one with that in mind. 
My goal is to get a dog/pup this fall.

I hope that doesn't make my question or interest less valid? >.<


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## schh3fh2

meldy said:


> Not yet. Im hoping to find a sport I like and purchase one with that in mind.
> My goal is to get a dog/pup this fall.
> 
> I hope that doesn't make my question or interest less valid? >.<


It makes you smart


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## schh3fh2

Chris Wild said:


> As with all things, and as many have said in this thread, it depends on the dog and on the focus of the training. There are many IPO people who focus only on points, seek out the "manic" type dogs that have that extra flash. And there are many IPO people who seek out true working temperament and train for a more balanced approach that involves aggression and defense, not just prey, and if that means losing a point here or there in a trial and coming in behind the more specialized sporty type dogs, they are fine with that.
> .


 I could not disagree with this more.... There are many many top level dogs that are not "manic" or "sporty" dogs....Sean O'Kane's dog is as real as it gets, 2x National Champion. Mike Diehl's Dog is not a sporty manic dog either, multiple times top 3 at National Championships....

Scoring high is more about the training and the quality of the dog. Not a "manic" "sporty" dog.....I am not at their levels but none of my dogs have ever been "manic" and all but one of my dogs have not been "sporty" either....One was, I got him at 8 weeks and he turned out to be a prey monster, I didn't go looking for that, it's just what he was.... You train the best you can, and if your training is at that level, you can win with a "real" dog.....So to say that you have to "seek out the manic dog" to get high points and flash, I just completely disagree with.....


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## carmspack

meldy said:


> Not yet. Im hoping to find a sport I like and purchase one with that in mind.
> My goal is to get a dog/pup this fall.
> 
> I hope that doesn't make my question or interest less valid? >.<


absolutely not ! I think it is a very good way to go about it .
smart .

IF you had a dog I would have been curious to look at the pedigree to see what the strong points were .

If titles mean a lot then schutzhund is probably better just for the fact that it is available to train and trial. In ring there were few opportunities to trial .


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## meldy

Titles don't really mean anything to me. 

I like the skill set that comes with training not the show of it. 

Just the Wikipedia list of what a French Ring dog has to go through to be titled is amazing! The skills and training involved are what interest me...not so much the testing and titling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Ring_Sport for anyone who doesn't want to look it up. I don't see how a good portion of that list isn't applicable to real life (although that's not PPD or schutzhund) although Im wary of assuming that now since there seems to be a good part of the ability to perform these feats outside of a show ring dependent on the dog itself.


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## Chris Wild

Easy Frank, I was speaking in extremes since that is the tone of the thread and picked a term already used by someone else to describe SchH dogs. I'm certainly not saying that only a "manic" dog can do well in IPO. There are certainly many very well rounded dogs who take it seriously and do quite well. Including many who are cross trained in other bite sports, PPD, and police work. 

But you also can't deny that there are a lot of "Malinois in GSD suit" types on IPO fields these days too.. and more than there used to be. Including at a certain event in Philly a few months ago. And cross training in other venues and utilizing drives and methods that aren't necessary to succeed in IPO is more often than not also going to sacrifice some points to the person who maintains a single focus on just the IPO podium. But I digress...

My point to the OP is that she can find both extremes, and everything in the middle, so rather than reading generalizations that say "IPO people are like X and PPD people are like Y" she needs to get out and see some different dogs and trainers and realize that it comes down to the individual dog's temperament and the training program more than what venue they choose to compete in.


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## meldy

Chris Wild said:


> Easy Frank, I was speaking in extremes since that is the tone of the thread and picked a term already used by someone else to describe SchH dogs. I'm certainly not saying that only a "manic" dog can do well in IPO. There are certainly many very well rounded dogs who take it seriously and do quite well. Including many who are cross trained in other bite sports, PPD, and police work.
> 
> But you also can't deny that there are a lot of "Malinois in GSD suit" types on IPO fields these days too.. and more than there used to be. Including at a certain event in Philly a few months ago. But I digress....
> 
> My point to the OP is that she can find both extremes, and everything in the middle, so rather than reading generalizations that say "IPO people are like X and PPD people are like Y" she needs to get out and see some different dogs and trainers and realize that it comes down to the individual dog's temperament and the training program more than what venue they choose to compete in.


 
What I really, really need to do is stop thinking in black and white  

Granted starting with extremes and working down from that is easier than trying to process all the grays at once.

Trainers is a given =) but everyone seems to shut down in winter so Im doing what I can in the meantime.

This thread actually started sort of more as a protection work/sport vs real life skill as I had originally thought that Schutzhund dogs were PPD dogs. That the two were basically interchangeable. It was all new to me that it was mostly for show and not a real skill. (very generalized just for simplicities sake)

Any lay person watching a Schutzhund trial would be terrified of that dog (trust me, Ive made my friends watch youtube videos of trials til they pray for a quick death from the monotony of it lol) so I had previously always assumed, like everyone I know, that those were actual working, protection dogs. Not show animals putting on a show for a title.

Very simplified I know!! and I now understand that some dogs are showy, some dogs are dead serious about it and there's everything in between but this is the first Ive even heard that Schutzhund wasn't 'real'

Out of curiosity then...is there a way to tell from bloodlines or ??? which dogs are taking it seriously and which are just good at trials? Im guessing it has something to do with the dogs body language (which I wont claim to know how to read!) Is there a simplified way to tell.... back to black and white! sorry folks! :lurking:

I don't actually need to know how to tell yet! Im content to let my breeder hand me a pup she thinks is suitable that is just a curiosity question


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## onyx'girl

get out and watch the dogs...chat with the handlers or breeders and learn the differences by seeing. I don't think you can get a quick lesson on pedigree history from reading a forum, it takes years! Some clubs train with the more sporty types, or the showline types, and some train with the more serious dogs....so getting out to different clubs is what I'd do too. I personally like to train with some pay to train groups because there is such a diversity. But I love to train with a core group of teams....yet I see so much more variety at the pay to train venues.
Eventually you'll see which lines you would prefer to work with.


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## Chris Wild

Meldy, it might help to also do some research into the history of schutzhund. It was never intended to be a PPD training program. It was designed as a breed test to test for the traits that are needed in a working dog, including for protection. A dog who has proven to have those basic traits can a) hopefully reproduce them and b) transition into more real training if the handler desires.

While not a perfect analogy, this is one that helps a lot of newbies understand. Think of it in a way as martial arts for dogs. Martial arts are taught in a controlled environment with rules of engagement, and many have a competition aspect that scores points. Some participants, including some at a high competition level, would essentially fall apart in a real street fight because their temperament isn't suitable for doing this for real. Others would do just fine in a real fight, and that is more due to their temperament than their training, though certainly if they were in a real life situation the skills that they learned in karate class would come in handy. Both types are taught the same skills... some have the personality to use them for real, some don't. With the dogs, as with the people, you can get a pretty good idea of who is who by knowing them and watching how they do the work.

To continue with that analogy, SchH protection can also serve as a good foundation for additional protection work. With a solid foundation, the right dog with SchH training can easily transition to other bite sports, police work, or PPD work.


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## meldy

Amazing explanation!! Thank you!


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## Packen

schh3fh2 said:


> I could not disagree with this more.... There are many many top level dogs that are not "manic" or "sporty" dogs....Sean O'Kane's dog is as real as it gets, 2x National Champion. Mike Diehl's Dog is not a sporty manic dog either, multiple times top 3 at National Championships....
> 
> Scoring high is more about the training and the quality of the dog. Not a "manic" "sporty" dog.....I am not at their levels but none of my dogs have ever been "manic" and all but one of my dogs have not been "sporty" either....One was, I got him at 8 weeks and he turned out to be a prey monster, I didn't go looking for that, it's just what he was.... You train the best you can, and if your training is at that level, you can win with a "real" dog.....So to say that you have to "seek out the manic dog" to get high points and flash, I just completely disagree with.....


Frank, this is the going trendy excuse here. If dog or training is not up to par, then the dog becomes "real" therefore not flashy or sporty  Good thing you called it, anyone else and they would have been ganged up on and eventually banned.


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## carmspack

check out this interview with Elmar Mannes , breeder, BSP participant, judge . He is critical of the over the top petty demands for those scores -- which in the end make for selection for dogs that do not have such strong temperament and character http://www.vangoghkennels.com/pb-htdocs/Adobe%20Files/ElmarMannesInterview.pdf

good dogs , that will do good for the breed are over looked .

handlers want dogs that don't cost them point loss -- and that takes the breed into different direction


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## G-burg

I train with a National/World level trainer and he most certainly does seek out a certain type of dog.. And it seems to be the more sporty type dogs.



> handlers want dogs that don't cost them point loss -- and that takes the breed into different direction


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## David Winners

This brings up a good point. National / World level trainers are going to work dogs that fit their system. Mike Diehl is going to work LE type dogs. Stefan Schaub is going to work a powerhouse. Shade Whitesel is going to work prey dogs. The dog fits the trainer. 




G-burg said:


> I train with a National/World level trainer and he most certainly does seek out a certain type of dog.. And it seems to be the more sporty type dogs.


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## G-burg

Right.. 

We have another National level competitor in our club and he also seeks out a certain type of dog.. He'll probably never be on the podium with the type of dogs he likes..


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## David Winners

I have been guilty of trying to do the wrong thing with the wrong dog because I wanted it to be that way. Sometimes the idea is far more appealing than the truth.


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## cliffson1

I think that Chris's statement is accurate in general, sure we can cherry pick extremely talented handlers and trainers "some" of which do have non sporty dogs that they trial. But I agree with Elmar Mannes's statement in 2008 and it is even worse today. To carry it a step further, the training techniques of sport today are so prey oriented that many clubs/TD do not know how to bring a strong defense based dog along effectively. I see it all the time. Nothing is absolute, but certainly there are trends that are and continuing to develop that if not identified will lead the breed in certain directions. I see PD candidates washed out routinely that have great bites, didn't used to be that way years ago. Too much prey(sporty) and not enough nerve to handle stress(environmental issues) and lack of fight element when needed.....and these are not SL dogs. 
Thirty years ago police training schools/TDs welcomed SCH titled dogs as they were almost always good candidates....today they would rather see a green dog from eastern bloc nation than a SCH titled dog.....times have changed and the type of dogs doing sport have changed in general ( not completely for sure) and there is definitely MORE sport dogs these days than ever before.jmo


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## schh3fh2

carmspack said:


> handlers want dogs that don't cost them point loss -- and that takes the breed into different direction


I have to respectfully disagree with this statement... it takes ALL responsibility out of the BREEDERS hands.... The breeders are the ones making the breeding pair decisions and producing the puppies. Why are they without responsibility for the direction of the breed. They are the ones making the actual decision.

When I got into the sport (20 years ago) it was well known, you don't breed to the dog that wins, you breed to the dog that finishes 15-20th 4 years in a row because he is too hard to control.... In my opinion, the breeders have gotten away from that and they breed to the "big name of the moment" and that is more responsibile for the change in direction of the breed then a competitor just competeing with their dog. The breeders make decisions that drive the direction of the breed, not the handlers.....

For sure there are more "sporty" dog in the sport now then before....No Doubt. They are easier to train and do well with. My only point is they don't always win and are not at the top sometimes....In our Nationals this year, at least 4 of the top 7 are real dogs, 2 I know are sporty and one I don't know much about and don't have an opinion on.


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## meldy

schh3fh2 said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with this statement... it takes ALL responsibility out of the BREEDERS hands.... The breeders are the ones making the breeding pair decisions and producing the puppies. Why are they without responsibility for the direction of the breed. They are the ones making the actual decision.
> 
> When I got into the sport (20 years ago) it was well known, you don't breed to the dog that wins, you breed to the dog that finishes 15-20th 4 years in a row because he is too hard to control.... In my opinion, the breeders have gotten away from that and they breed to the "big name of the moment" and that is more responsibile for the change in direction of the breed then a competitor just competeing with their dog. The breeders make decisions that drive the direction of the breed, not the handlers.....
> 
> For sure there are more "sporty" dog in the sport now then before....No Doubt. They are easier to train and do well with. My only point is they don't always win and are not at the top sometimes....In our Nationals this year, at least 4 of the top 7 are real dogs, 2 I know are sporty and one I don't know much about and don't have an opinion on.


 
Arent breeders producing what is in demand though?

It sounds to me like a sporty dog might be easier to train and compete just in that there seems to be a greater market (which would trickle down into trainers availability etc) --you actually said that! sorry! I went back and reread your post >.<
Conversely the 'real' dogs sound more 'old school' (please excuse the terminology and I know I just totally eliminated the gray area) 

For a buyer and hopeful owner this issue translated for me into wanting a sane dog as opposed to a crazy one. I see and hear about WL GSD's that are essentially mental cases, aggression issues, nervous ticks, fear issues...just dogs that aren't firing on all cylinders, that a newbie like me wants nothing to do with as I think a high strung, high maintenance, inconsistent dog like that would drive me crazy. 

I can find those types of dogs easily. Ridiculously easily. And Im brand new and barely know what Im looking for.

I want sanity and stability above all else. Perhaps Im shooting myself in the foot as far as titling but I'd rather have a dog that I can live with than one with a lot of abbreviations behind it's name.

Granted I am translating what you call 'sporty' into the insanity with hair I have been offered multiple times by different breeders.


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## cliffson1

Frank, based on your last post I think Chris, You, and I are seeing and saying the same thing. I guess the difference is how each of us values these trends in terms of "good for the breed" .....take care .....I always enjoy your posts, even if I view things somewhat differently


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## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> Arent breeders producing what is in demand though?
> 
> It sounds to me like a sporty dog might be easier to train and compete just in that there seems to be a greater market (which would trickle down into trainers availability etc) --you actually said that! sorry! I went back and reread your post >.<
> Conversely the 'real' dogs sound more 'old school' (please excuse the terminology and I know I just totally eliminated the gray area)
> 
> For a buyer and hopeful owner this issue translated for me into wanting a sane dog as opposed to a crazy one. I see and hear about WL GSD's that are essentially mental cases, aggression issues, nervous ticks, fear issues...just dogs that aren't firing on all cylinders, that a newbie like me wants nothing to do with as I think a high strung, high maintenance, inconsistent dog like that would drive me crazy.
> 
> I can find those types of dogs easily. Ridiculously easily. And Im brand new and barely know what Im looking for.
> 
> I want sanity and stability above all else. Perhaps Im shooting myself in the foot as far as titling but I'd rather have a dog that I can live with than one with a lot of abbreviations behind it's name.
> 
> Granted I am translating what you call 'sporty' into the insanity with hair I have been offered multiple times by different breeders.


You only hear "WL GSDs are nervy, mental cases" from folks who have never owned, handled, or trained an actual quality working dog


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## schh3fh2

cliffson1 said:


> Frank, based on your last post I think Chris, You, and I are seeing and saying the same thing. I guess the difference is how each of us values these trends in terms of "good for the breed" .....take care .....I always enjoy your posts, even if I view things somewhat differently


 
:laugh::laugh: Believe me, I wasn't saying the current trend was good for the breed.....in fact I think just the opposite :shocked:


Meldy said "Arent breeders producing what is in demand though?"

This is the problems....They are, if they are breeding to make money...which is NOT what it is suppose to be about. Breeders "Should" be breeding to improve the breed, not pay their mortgage or pump out puppies left and right.


And if you make a breeding aiming for a 10, you may get 1 or 2, 9 or 10's, the rest will be 6,7 and 8's..... (9 and 10's being real dogs, great balance of drives, solid temperment and nerve. 6-8 being something less) The problem comes when the 7's that score good get bred to a 7 female and produce pups even further away from the 9 or 10 dog....and so on and so on.... Just my opinion....and a pet peeve of mine when people want to blame the sport on the direction of the breed , when in reality it is the BREEDERS that make the actual decisions that drive the direction of the breed....and so they should assume some responsibility also.....


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## onyx'girl

meldy said:


> Arent breeders producing what is in demand though?
> 
> It sounds to me like a sporty dog might be easier to train and compete just in that there seems to be a greater market (which would trickle down into trainers availability etc) --you actually said that! sorry! I went back and reread your post >.<
> Conversely the 'real' dogs sound more 'old school' (please excuse the terminology and I know I just totally eliminated the gray area)
> 
> For a buyer and hopeful owner this issue translated for me into wanting a sane dog as opposed to a crazy one. I see and hear about WL GSD's that are essentially mental cases, aggression issues, nervous ticks, fear issues...just dogs that aren't firing on all cylinders, that a newbie like me wants nothing to do with as I think a high strung, high maintenance, inconsistent dog like that would drive me crazy.
> 
> I can find those types of dogs easily. Ridiculously easily. And Im brand new and barely know what Im looking for.
> 
> I want sanity and stability above all else. Perhaps Im shooting myself in the foot as far as titling but I'd rather have a dog that I can live with than one with a lot of abbreviations behind it's name.
> 
> Granted I am translating what you call 'sporty' into the insanity with hair I have been offered multiple times by different breeders.


A thinking dog is what I'd want to train any day...even if it is more of a challenge and I get some point deductions.


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## meldy

hunterisgreat said:


> You only hear "WL GSDs are nervy, mental cases" from folks who have never owned, handled, or trained an actual quality working dog


 
This is what I worry about and why Im doing so much homework. If that is what a WL GSD should be (in laymans terms-crazy) then they aren't the dog for me. 
It seems to me Ive encountered two types...the mental cases and dogs that just seem smart. Im aiming smart...or that is my goal. If that isn't the norm then Im probably in the totally wrong place.


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## Chris Wild

meldy said:


> This is what I worry about and why Im doing so much homework. If that is what a WL GSD should be (in laymans terms-crazy) then they aren't the dog for me.
> It seems to me Ive encountered two types...the mental cases and dogs that just seem smart. Im aiming smart...or that is my goal. If that isn't the norm then Im probably in the totally wrong place.


And this is why it is so important to get out and see the dogs for yourself so you can form your own opinion.


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## hunterisgreat

schh3fh2 said:


> :laugh::laugh: Believe me, I wasn't saying the current trend was good for the breed.....in fact I think just the opposite :shocked:
> 
> 
> Meldy said "Arent breeders producing what is in demand though?"
> 
> This is the problems....They are, if they are breeding to make money...which is NOT what it is suppose to be about. Breeders "Should" be breeding to improve the breed, not pay their mortgage or pump out puppies left and right.
> 
> 
> And if you make a breeding aiming for a 10, you may get 1 or 2, 9 or 10's, the rest will be 6,7 and 8's..... (9 and 10's being real dogs, great balance of drives, solid temperment and nerve. 6-8 being something less) The problem comes when the 7's that score good get bred to a 7 female and produce pups even further away from the 9 or 10 dog....and so on and so on.... Just my opinion....and a pet peeve of mine when people want to blame the sport on the direction of the breed , when in reality it is the BREEDERS that make the actual decisions that drive the direction of the breed....and so they should assume some responsibility also.....


Well there is no doubt responsibility through the whole chain... handlers, breeders, trainers, and judges... but ultimately, what the current judges deem desirable, is what trickles down through breeders via handlers wanting to score well and the dog they perceive to be needed to do so. So who decides what is judged as nice, and what is judged as less than nice?


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## schh3fh2

meldy said:


> This is what I worry about and why Im doing so much homework. If that is what a WL GSD should be (in laymans terms-crazy) then they aren't the dog for me.
> It seems to me Ive encountered two types...the mental cases and dogs that just seem smart. Im aiming smart...or that is my goal. If that isn't the norm then Im probably in the totally wrong place.


 
I think most or all of the dogs are smart, and actually extremely smart. The difference in some bloodlines is the drive levels. They are not supid dogs, but you need to "teach" in a lower drive, then raise the drive levels when they understand what they are doing. That is how you get the very up, flashy obedience.....The problem comes when people try to put the dog in drive and then try to "teach" them.....it just creates conflict (in the dog) and frustration (in the handler)

And just because you see a dog "crazy" on the training field doesn't mean he is like that off the field. I teach, build, train my dogs to push and be high high high on the field and then relax, off the field. The craziest dog I ever owned and trained is the best house dog I've ever owned.

Frank


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## meldy

Chris Wild said:


> And this is why it is so important to get out and see the dogs for yourself so you can form your own opinion.


 
The dogs Ive met so far fall into those two catagories but I admit I haven't met more than half a dozen or so...and of those only one I really, really adored. (the rest were also from the same breeder >.<)


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## hunterisgreat

Crazy mental nervous aggression & fear issues, high strung time bombs, putting my gf's daughter to bed last weekend


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## Chris Wild

hunterisgreat said:


> Well there is no doubt responsibility through the whole chain... handlers, breeders, trainers, and judges... but ultimately, what the current judges deem desirable, is what trickles down through breeders via handlers wanting to score well and the dog they perceive to be needed to do so. So who decides what is judged as nice, and what is judged as less than nice?


Agree, it is the whole system that is at fault. This is no different from what has happened to certain other bloodlines in the past that took a huge divergence from the core of what the breed should be. Really, the only difference is that then it was to achieve the "flying trot" and in this case it's for winning IPO trials. The judges reward a certain type of dog. And I'm not thinking of any specific judge when I say that (and certainly NOT Frank) just referring to the trend overall. So the handlers want that type of dog. The rules change every few years also have taken things more toward a certain type of dog being more desireable and also easier to achieve high points with. Some breeders continue to hold the course despite the trend while others, very often the ones who are also competitors and want to win, follow the trend. Certainly there are exceptions. People like Mike and Sean are not only phenomenal trainers but also come from the background of police K9 work, not just sport. I definitely think they are more the exception than the rule.


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## schh3fh2

hunterisgreat said:


> Well there is no doubt responsibility through the whole chain... handlers, breeders, trainers, and judges... but ultimately, what the current judges deem desirable, is what trickles down through breeders via handlers wanting to score well and the dog they perceive to be needed to do so. So who decides what is judged as nice, and what is judged as less than nice?


 This is exactly what I'm talking about..... IPO is a sport and is about temperment and most of all "training"....It is a good "tool" in selecting breeding dogs but not the be all to end all..... The Judges do not make the decisions on what breeders do. Judges make the decision on the best performance on that specific day. Breeders make the decision of which dogs they will breed. If they are breeding to make money and sell as many puppies as possible, then yes, they breed to make the easiest trained dogs.....But when I got into the sport, that was not what it was about. And I still believe that. Breeders have a RESPONSIBILITY to breed to improve the breed...Unfortunately we do not see this from the majority of breedrs today.

If they made the Judges give the highest points to the biggest badass dog reguardless of the performance, you and everyone else would be screaming of favoritism (and probably right in some cases, judges putting up their friends so they get breedings) and all other kinds of corruption....No way it could work....

IPO is a tool for breeders, but breeders have a responsibility to breed to the "best dogs", not necessarily the best "trained" dog..... Just my opinion here...


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## carmspack

quote "I have to respectfully disagree with this statement... it takes ALL responsibility out of the BREEDERS hands.... The breeders are the ones making the breeding pair decisions and producing the puppies. Why are they without responsibility for the direction of the breed. They are the ones making the actual decision."

That is why there are so many WGshowLines that are sable , or solid black. That person doesn't stand a snow ball fate in the hot place to win or be selected to compete.

any time there is an over-emphasis on one thing , colour , prey drive, speed , especially over a longer time period , brings changes to the genetic availability as those other traits become rarer.

Balance - always in balance.


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## meldy

That is what Im looking for! A dog that can lay on the couch without eating it's way through couch (or it's eating it's own foot...) and then be just as happy going to work and learning something new. 
I understand the puppy stages, Ive had many, many dogs in my lifetime, but Ive had a bit of trouble translating what people are calling drive into something workable for a newbie. Im translating drive into the sporty dogs. 
Drive seems to be the focus of most of the breeders I talk to. The more the dogs have the better but with that it seems to me like the dogs end up a little like ADHD kids (no offense to anyone please! just needed an analogy!) and such dogs don't need to be produced in the quantities they are since 90% of the market is looking for pets.

And then someone like me sees such a dog and thinks crazy. I don't know if the dog itself is actually crazy (I honestly think that is the issue) or if it just needs to work more. For the most part these dogs have some sort of job or are at least worked. They aren't just crated 24/7 or anything of that nature and they still tend to be unfocussed and hyperactive.


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## schh3fh2

Chris Wild said:


> The rules change every few years also have taken things more toward a certain type of dog being more desireable and also easier to achieve high points with. Some breeders continue to hold the course despite the trend while others, very often the ones who are also competitors and want to win, follow the trend. Certainly there are exceptions. People like Mike and Sean are not only phenomenal trainers but also come from the background of police K9 work, not just sport. I definitely think they are more the exception than the rule.


 
Agree with this completely.... However, since the merger of SchH and IPO, the rules are now "All Breed" rules and why I say it is a good tool, but not the be all to end all in slecting breeding dogs. And if you want to apply the blame pie... Blame handlers/trainers too...It is because of the ability/level of training being done now that drives the rules and judges to raise the bar more and more...If you look at videos of dogs that scored 99 pts 15 years ago, they would score 75 now, because every dog out there looks as good as that now, there would be a 28 way tie for first place with 300 points....:laugh:

Frank


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## Chris Wild

The ADHD behavior you are talking about is a function of NERVES, not drive. The ability to know when to turn on and when to turn off, and the ability to settle when not working are nerve based. Hyperactive behavior is not drive, it is hyperactivity. They are not at all the same. The highest drive dog on the planet, if the nerves are sound, can turn off and settle just fine. And many busy, frantic, always in motion type dogs don't have any actual drive... they won't chase a ball or bite a rag... the constant activity is a nerve weakness.


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## meldy

Chris Wild said:


> The ADHD behavior you are talking about is a function of NERVES, not drive. The ability to know when to turn on and when to turn off, and the ability to settle when not working are nerve based. Hyperactive behavior is not drive, it is hyperactivity. They are not at all the same. The highest drive dog on the planet, if the nerves are sound, can turn off and settle just fine. And many busy, frantic, always in motion type dogs don't have any actual drive... they won't chase a ball or bite a rag... the constant activity is a nerve weakness.


So these ADHD type dogs aren't the type that do well in IPO? 
And no they don't seem to be able to focus on a ball long enough to actually retrieve it...


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## hunterisgreat

schh3fh2 said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about..... IPO is a sport and is about temperment and most of all "training"....It is a good "tool" in selecting breeding dogs but not the be all to end all..... The Judges do not make the decisions on what breeders do. Judges make the decision on the best performance on that specific day. Breeders make the decision of which dogs they will breed. If they are breeding to make money and sell as many puppies as possible, then yes, they breed to make the easiest trained dogs.....But when I got into the sport, that was not what it was about. And I still believe that. Breeders have a RESPONSIBILITY to breed to improve the breed...Unfortunately we do not see this from the majority of breedrs today.
> 
> If they made the Judges give the highest points to the biggest badass dog reguardless of the performance, you and everyone else would be screaming of favoritism (and probably right in some cases, judges putting up their friends so they get breedings) and all other kinds of corruption....No way it could work....
> 
> IPO is a tool for breeders, but breeders have a responsibility to breed to the "best dogs", not necessarily the best "trained" dog..... Just my opinion here...


I don't disagree with anything you said... but the way I see it, the only way to influence what the breed looks like via what breeders do, and what handlers demand via their cash, is through judging. Obviously giving the most points to the "biggest badass dog regardless of performance" is a full pendulum swing in the other direction and will solve one problem while creating another.

Personally, to me the ideal dog is like Diehls old dog Brawnson... able to compete at the highest levels of sport, and also a full time real working dog. "SWAT K9, Dual Purpose Patrol/Narcotics K9, 2000 & 2002 National Police Dog Champion, SchH3, DPO2, WPO, FH2"... if thats not what the breed should be, then I've gotten into the wrong breed.


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## Chris Wild

meldy said:


> So these ADHD type dogs aren't the type that do well in IPO?
> And no they don't seem to be able to focus on a ball long enough to actually retrieve it...


No, some of them do just fine in IPO. Just don't try to live with them. My point is what Frank said... that just because a dog shows a ton of drive and energy in training and on the trial field where it has been taught to be in a high state of drive does NOT mean that the dog is like that all the time.


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## meldy

Chris Wild said:


> No, some of them do just fine in IPO. Just don't try to live with them. My point is what Frank said... that just because a dog shows a ton of drive and energy in training and on the trial field where it has been taught to be in a high state of drive does NOT mean that the dog is like that all the time.


 
I haven't seen any dogs training or at trial yet, that's to come once the clubs start again. (Other than videos where they just look like they're doing their job, not crazy at all) These were just dogs hanging out at home and once at a dog park.


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## schh3fh2

hunterisgreat said:


> I don't disagree with anything you said... but the way I see it, the only way to influence what the breed looks like via what breeders do, and what handlers demand via their cash, is through judging. Obviously giving the most points to the "biggest badass dog regardless of performance" is a full pendulum swing in the other direction and will solve one problem while creating another.
> 
> Personally, to me the ideal dog is like Diehls old dog Brawnson... able to compete at the highest levels of sport, and also a full time real working dog. "SWAT K9, Dual Purpose Patrol/Narcotics K9, 2000 & 2002 National Police Dog Champion, SchH3, DPO2, WPO, FH2"... if thats not what the breed should be, then I've gotten into the wrong breed.


I don't disagree with any of this either.....I just don't see how IPO, stays a All breed competition AND can drive the direction of the GSD breed. The problem lies that not all the best "stud dogs" are in the hands of the beat trainers.... And this is where I feel it is the breeders responsibility to only use IPO as a small part of their slection process and they must breed to better the breed, not pump out as many sporty, fast selling puppies as possible.... Trust me, when you try to improve the breed, you will get sporty puppies in the litter too....And there are plenty of people out there that still want a total dog....


I'll give you an example, my dog Cayos was a total dog, he had 14 breedings, he has 4 dogs that were exported to Europe that are competeing in Europe now, he also produced a litter where 3 littermates competed at the National Championships at 3 years of age. He has produced many active duty Police dogs. He retired from active competition and has not been bred since. There are a lot of "really good real dogs" out there, problem is the breeders do not choose those dogs to breed to, why? because they are breeding to make as much money as easy as possible, instead of trying to better the breed.

(LOL can you tell this hits a nerve with me :blush


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## Liesje

meldy said:


> That is what Im looking for! A dog that can lay on the couch without eating it's way through couch (or it's eating it's own foot...) and then be just as happy going to work and learning something new.


I do not have the experience of Frank, Cliff, Chris....but my take on this is that I see so many people that think they need "extreme drive" just to have fun, train successfully, and title their dogs. Personally, I like the more medium drive dogs that have a more aloof, discerning type temperament and think before acting. The first dog I titled in Schutzhund was a show line for goodness sakes and really didn't have much trouble doing it other than periods of inconsistency in training (there were not major or insurmountable issues with the *dog*, any lack of progress was a failure on MY part). I don't mind high G or low SG scores, that still means Good or Very Good!! I thought my show line dog was scored fairly in his SchH and SDA trials (I know the latter is very different, but we were judged by someone who is also very involved in SchH). I know people say there is drive, and then there is nerve and threshold but *in my limited experience* it seems those dogs that were sought out by their owners/handlers for having much higher or "extreme" drives ended up with problems due to lower thresholds (lots of screaming/leaking, losing their minds and being out of control, needing a LOT of compulsion to "get through" to them and keep them at a workable level, sometimes chewy grips). Granted I do a LOT more than just SchH with my dogs so I am looking for different things but when I picked my last puppy I just needed a dog that is stable, a dog that shows a desire to chase/fetch, a dog that enjoys to tug, a dog that is very motivated to hunt or work for food. It doesn't have to be the fastest dog or a dog that will chase a ball right off a cliff or a dog that will tug so hard I can swing the puppy around, but if it likes food, toys, tugging, and engaging with people you can train the dog to do pretty much any sport. My dogs are all house dogs and they all live together (adults not crated unless we're traveling/training/competing, everyone is free in the house and happy). If I had a kennel, you bet I'd probably have some different dogs with different temperaments than what I've got now but my personal experience with several dogs that are *house dogs first* has been that if I get a dog that has *good* drive and shows potential and the desire to work and engage, I don't need that "extreme drive" dog to have fun training and earn titles. If the basic genetics are sound and the dog has SOME drive, a lot of it is just what you make of it. All my dogs look different in someone else's hands.

That is just my experience reacting to the comment quoted. I'm a bit behind reading up on the more recent discussion, but like the others seem to be saying, the more time you spend with the dogs even just observing them in training and watching how other people interact, the easier it will be to understand what YOU want and how to find it. I have a training friend that I love training with who is like the total opposite of me and we both know it, we both love to watch each other with our dogs and often comment how we each seek out very different dogs (she always wants the most hyper, drivey, lower threshold, couch eating dogs) but enjoy watching the finished product together. Even if a club tends to follow similar trends for training, I'm sure you will see some very different dogs and styles.


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## Chris Wild

schh3fh2 said:


> Agree with this completely.... However, since the merger of SchH and IPO, the rules are now "All Breed" rules and why I say it is a good tool, but not the be all to end all in slecting breeding dogs. And if you want to apply the blame pie... Blame handlers/trainers too...It is because of the ability/level of training being done now that drives the rules and judges to raise the bar more and more...If you look at videos of dogs that scored 99 pts 15 years ago, they would score 75 now, because every dog out there looks as good as that now, there would be a 28 way tie for first place with 300 points....:laugh:
> 
> Frank


Oh absolutely. I know it's all IPO now so it's technically all sport and no longer really a breed test, and I agree that the quality of the training has dictated many of the rule changes and also the individual judges' interpretation of those rules.

But I consider that a very bad thing for the breed. Striving to avoid that 28 way tie shouldn't be the driving force, but it is. This puts way too much control over the direction of the breed in the hands of a few dozen individuals at a half dozen big events a year. That 99pt dog from 15 years ago shouldn't be barely squeaking by today.

I've heard from several friends in Europe that one of the newer trends with some judges is to only give full points on the long down to the dog who watches the blind where the handler is for the entire exercise. Now for starters, no where in the rules does it say that. The dog is just supposed to remain settled and not move. If he does, he should get 10pts. But some judges are finding a way to take a point for a dog who fulfills all of the requirements of the rules. No doubt another attempt to sort out the tie.

But the problem is that this sort of undermines one of the purposes of the long down test from a temperament evaluation standpoint and can end up rewarding the wrong type of temperament.... the dog with the busy mind who can't settle well and who remains in drive for a full 10 minutes while doing absolutely nothing. Yes, of course training is a part of that. But from a breeder's standpoint *I* want to see the dog who is able to settle and be calm and turn off his drive for the exercise that requires it, and then turn on again when he goes on the field (or depending on trial order, vice versa and turn off after having been on). Watchful, not sleepy, but not buzzing with energy, staring laser beams at the handler, ready to spring up. For the out of motions, that is the behavior the dog should show. For the long down, the dog should settle. This trend in judging will reward the type of dog who doesn't settle but rather remains in drive when he shouldn't. 

My opinion of course, I'm sure others will disagree. But I do find myself paying a lot more attention to the dog in the long down than I used to, looking for the dog's mental state during the exercise.


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## hunterisgreat

schh3fh2 said:


> I don't disagree with any of this either.....I just don't see how IPO, stays a All breed competition AND can drive the direction of the GSD breed. The problem lies that not all the best "stud dogs" are in the hands of the beat trainers.... And this is where I feel it is the breeders responsibility to only use IPO as a small part of their slection process and they must breed to better the breed, not pump out as many sporty, fast selling puppies as possible.... Trust me, when you try to improve the breed, you will get sporty puppies in the litter too....And there are plenty of people out there that still want a total dog....
> 
> 
> I'll give you an example, my dog Cayos was a total dog, he had 14 breedings, he has 4 dogs that were exported to Europe that are competeing in Europe now, he also produced a litter where 3 littermates competed at the National Championships at 3 years of age. He has produced many active duty Police dogs. He retired from active competition and has not been bred since. There are a lot of "really good real dogs" out there, problem is the breeders do not choose those dogs to breed to, why? because they are breeding to make as much money as easy as possible, instead of trying to better the breed.
> 
> (LOL can you tell this hits a nerve with me :blush


Oh I don't disagree with you. I'd also argue that probably there are more "perfect dogs" in the hands of unskilled trainers/handlers that are never even discovered and go unused than there are perfect dogs that are in the right hands to be on the national/world stage and get studded out, just because of the raw probability of such. So I totally understand what you're saying. I mean, you judged Katya's IPO1, I'm sure it was blatantly apparent the difference between the dog's ability and that of my handling & training at the time lol. There's no way I could be on the national podium with her (first dog I trained in IPO and all), but if she was owned by someone else it certainly could have been possible lol.


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## onyx'girl

schh3fh2 said:


> I don't disagree with any of this either.....I just don't see how IPO, stays a All breed competition AND can drive the direction of the GSD breed. The problem lies that not all the best "stud dogs" are in the hands of the beat trainers.... And this is where I feel it is the breeders responsibility to only use IPO as a small part of their slection process and they must breed to better the breed, not pump out as many sporty, fast selling puppies as possible.... Trust me, when you try to improve the breed, you will get sporty puppies in the litter too....And there are plenty of people out there that still want a total dog....
> 
> 
> I'll give you an example, my dog Cayos was a total dog, he had 14 breedings, he has 4 dogs that were exported to Europe that are competeing in Europe now, he also produced a litter where 3 littermates competed at the National Championships at 3 years of age. He has produced many active duty Police dogs. He retired from active competition and has not been bred since. *There are a lot of "really good real dogs" out there, problem is the breeders do not choose those dogs to breed to, why? because they are breeding to make as much money as easy as possible, instead of trying to better the breed.
> *
> (LOL can you tell this hits a nerve with me :blush


Thankfully there are a few breeders that look at the total dog/breeding match outcome and not breed to the flavor of the month.
Those that are trying to 'better the breed' are far and few between and probably never produce enough pups for the demand from their programs. I'd support this type of breeder long before a well known name breeding match. And I don't think the few that are breeding are doing it for the IPO crowd, but for any venue the buyers care to delve into...a versatile dog that can excel in most anything asked.


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## hunterisgreat

Chris Wild said:


> Oh absolutely. I know it's all IPO now so it's technically all sport and no longer really a breed test, and I agree that the quality of the training has dictated many of the rule changes and also the individual judges' interpretation of those rules.
> 
> But I consider that a very bad thing for the breed. Striving to avoid that 28 way tie shouldn't be the driving force, but it is. This puts way too much control over the direction of the breed in the hands of a few dozen individuals at a half dozen big events a year. That 99pt dog from 15 years ago shouldn't be barely squeaking by today.
> 
> I've heard from several friends in Europe that one of the newer trends with some judges is to only give full points on the long down to the dog who watches the blind where the handler is for the entire exercise. Now for starters, no where in the rules does it say that. The dog is just supposed to remain settled and not move. If he does, he should get 10pts. But some judges are finding a way to take a point for a dog who fulfills all of the requirements of the rules. No doubt another attempt to sort out the tie.
> 
> But the problem is that this sort of undermines one of the purposes of the long down test from a temperament evaluation standpoint and can end up rewarding the wrong type of temperament.... the dog with the busy mind who can't settle well and who remains in drive for a full 10 minutes while doing absolutely nothing. Yes, of course training is a part of that. But from a breeder's standpoint *I* want to see the dog who is able to settle and be calm and turn off his drive for the exercise that requires it, and then turn on again when he goes on the field (or depending on trial order, vice versa and turn off after having been on). Watchful, not sleepy, but not buzzing with energy, staring laser beams at the handler, ready to spring up. For the out of motions, that is the behavior the dog should show. For the long down, the dog should settle. This trend in judging will reward the type of dog who doesn't settle but rather remains in drive when he shouldn't.
> 
> My opinion of course, I'm sure others will disagree. But I do find myself paying a lot more attention to the dog in the long down than I used to, looking for the dog's mental state during the exercise.


Its a competition so I understand "some one has to win" and the points... but to be a breed test, there should be no reason why 10 dogs *can't* all get 300 at the same trial if they tested as such. Its GOOD for the breed, because then there are 10 suitable sires and not such a profound founder's effect from one sire having unnatural influence over the genetic gene pool.


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## Chris Wild

schh3fh2 said:


> And this is where I feel it is the breeders responsibility to only use IPO as a small part of their slection process and they must breed to better the breed, not pump out as many sporty, fast selling puppies as possible....


Very true, it must only be a part of the selection process. I guess my beef is that it's becoming less and less useful as the years and trends and rule changes go on. There was a time when certain assumptions could be made about a dog based on it's titles, achievements and scores. Between dogs miraculously titled 0-SchH3 in a couple of months (but who don't know how to track or retrieve) and the training having gotten to the point where watching a high level trial is far more of a trainers showcase than a dogs showcase as compared to the past, it's nearly impossible to make any assumptions any longer.

From a breeder's prespective, I'd have to say I'd put more stock in AWD titles than IPO titles these days.


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## hunterisgreat

Chris Wild said:


> Very true, it must only be a part of the selection process. I guess my beef is that it's becoming less and less useful as the years and trends and rule changes go on. There was a time when certain assumptions could be made about a dog based on it's titles, achievements and scores. Between dogs miraculously titled 0-SchH3 in a couple of months (but who don't know how to track or retrieve) and the training having gotten to the point where watching a high level trial is far more of a trainers showcase than a dogs showcase as compared to the past, it's nearly impossible to make any assumptions any longer.
> 
> From a breeder's prespective, I'd have to say I'd put more stock in AWD titles than IPO titles these days.


Thats one reason I like PSA... the thought process there is if your dog can make it to PSA1, your dog has the right stuff. PSA2 and PSA3 are a show of your training skill.

IPO should be like that as well. IPO1 should demonstrate your dogs genetic makeup. If IPO3 is a showcase of training skill with a good dog, thats fine, but lets make it clear that at this point, it is equal parts training skill and dog's ability. Maybe even have the judging/scoring more clearly show what parts are a result of training skill/error, and what parts are the dogs quality/fault...


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## Liesje

I can't comment on how this impacts breeding decisions and the quality of the breed but...I actually kind of like that there are your "club dogs" and your "national dogs". I do like see how top trainers work, and I know that many times I'm watching the product of the training and not the genetics/breeding of the dog. There's a part of me that loves the breed/dogs, and a part that is very fascinated by the training. I'm a very analytical person, my job is problem solving. Dog training in many venues has the same type of appeal to me and often the dog is incidental to the training. I agree that this may be having a negative impact on breeding decisions, but I do appreciate that those who have a goal of V scores on a national or international level can do so and those of us who have no such aspirations but still enjoy training and titling a dog can do so at a club or even regional level and still be "successful".


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## schh3fh2

Chris Wild said:


> Very true, it must only be a part of the selection process. I guess my beef is that it's becoming less and less useful as the years and trends and rule changes go on. There was a time when certain assumptions could be made about a dog based on it's titles, achievements and scores. Between dogs miraculously titled 0-SchH3 in a couple of months (but who don't know how to track or retrieve) and the training having gotten to the point where watching a high level trial is far more of a trainers showcase than a dogs showcase as compared to the past, it's nearly impossible to make any assumptions any longer.


Agree completely....and another reason why it should be only "part" of the selection process....too many times it is the highest scoring, closest dog that gets bred. And not the 240 bad ass.

Here is the bottom line and too many breeders don't see. Not all IPO titled dogs SHOULD be bred. Period. Not all IPO1 females should be bred and not all titled males should be bred. I'll give you an example, Cayos was SchH3 IPO3 12 Nationals and a "Stud" dog. His son Diesel (From a badass Waerner Hohen bitch (3rd place at nationals), 2 bad asses put together and produced a litter where 3 littermates went to National Championships, and one, Diesel, is very much a sporty dog), SchH3 IPO3, 5 Nationals, 3 times finished in top 10 and when someone asked to breed to him I said "No, Diesel is not a stud dog"..... He is a prey monster, no aggression at all, a very sporty dog....fun to own, fun to train, fun to hang out with, great in the house...But NOT a breeding dog. Could I have used the $1500 stud fee...of course, but to me it is about more than money....There are a lot of good breeders out there that feel the same, but there are too many that only breed to their own dogs or the big name of the moment.....I'm also speaking in generalities and not directing this to any individual breeders, here or any others.....Just a direction of the breed generalization


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## meldy

Slightly unrelated questions...when I see SCH3x3 on a pedigree does that mean the dog titled SCH3 three times? What does the "x3" stand for? Is this just trying to improve on the score?


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## crackem

hunterisgreat said:


> Thats one reason I like PSA... the thought process there is if your dog can make it to PSA1, your dog has the right stuff. PSA2 and PSA3 are a show of your training skill.
> 
> IPO should be like that as well. IPO1 should demonstrate your dogs genetic makeup. If IPO3 is a showcase of training skill with a good dog, thats fine, but lets make it clear that at this point, it is equal parts training skill and dog's ability. Maybe even have the judging/scoring more clearly show what parts are a result of training skill/error, and what parts are the dogs quality/fault...


I can't disagree more. IPO, IF, IF done with intent and correctly can demonstrate the gentics of a dog very well. In case you haven't noticed, generation after generation after generation of working dogs are almost exclusively Schutzhund titled dogs. This notion it doesn't showcase a dogs abilities is _* edited for language * _The problem is people. They pay it lip service, judges judge dogs from their own kennels, dogs that shouldn't pass have titles, etc. and a large Part of it, is we can train a fairly poor dog to do about anything under the right circumstances and there is a lot of money potential, so you get what we have. 

There are still plenty that do IPO and learn all about their dogs in the training process, some use it to select breeding dogs, some use it to get a title to sell puppies regardless of the dog they have.

PSA is no different. Well it is, there is no money in it, it's not all that big, there isn't all that much incentive. Let it grow, let it become a standard, let it mean something and watch what happens. Have fun in it, enjoy it. It's a sport, with some crazy scenarios that present a different training challenge and dedication to do well. Better at breeding selection?? Please, Give me a stick and sleeve and 3 scenarios outside of the OB and tracking. Selection over. I won't even have to yell 

I've seen enough PSA, and mediocre dogs can pass no problem if there was enough incentive for a dedicated trainer to do it. All the hootin and hollerin and throwing jugs across a field and "auto blank" guns can all be trained for. Start conditioning young and give me a reason to try and pass a weaker dog for it, and I can. I love the car jacking scenario, fun for sure, a test for a dog that has never done it? yeah. for the 500th time of getting a hidden sleeve stuffed in his mouth with yelling that's been going on for every exercise for 2 years??? It's just an exercise. 

Be thankful you don't have IPO's problems


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## schh3fh2

meldy said:


> Slightly unrelated questions...when I see SCH3x3 on a pedigree does that mean the dog titled SCH3 three times? What does the "x3" stand for? Is this just trying to improve on the score?


Yes it means they have passed SchH3 3 times. There are many reasons to repeat, it's fun to trial your dog, try to improve scores, compete at championships...who knows, my dogs are SchH3 when they are 3 years old, they compete until they are 7 or 8...so usually about 15 times IPO3.....


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## Doc

It's quickly turning into sports entertainment. Call me an old fart, but this has been going for years. The quote ' better the bred' is irrelevant because most who are into the sports of dogs thinks that mean to breed a higher drive dog, one that bites better, one that pouncing up and down and barks at a teepee. All the things that should only be a minor aspect of a balanced German shepherd. The tear down and separation of bloodlines that were once blended into the breed has destroyed the German shepherd. Too much of one bloodline at the expense of another of three that created the breed will ruin what this breed is suppose to be. Today's sports dogs are so full of Thuringian bloodlines and lack Swabian bloodlines which results in high drive, prey monsters that will bite at the drop of a hat. This is exactly what the Nazis did in WWII and it contributed to the death of Stephanitz according to his daughter.
These sport venues will only speed up the decline and demise of the true German shepherd that Max sent a life time building and protecting.


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## meldy

So how does Ring sport compare as a gauge for the breed standard? Or breed improvement?
From a newbies perspective Ring sport looks to be just IPO with more complications and requirements.


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## onyx'girl

Doc, what exactly do you do with your dogs to prove they're breedworthy? Not being snarky but truly curious?


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## Chris Wild

meldy said:


> So how does Ring sport compare as a gauge for the breed standard? Or breed improvement?
> From a newbies perspective Ring sport looks to be just IPO with more complications and requirements.


Well, to be frank, Ring was created for a different breed with a different temperament and physical structure. That isn't to say a good GSD can't do it, many can, but they won't work the same and probably won't be competitive against the Mals.

Ring has greater tests of agility and also stamina and endurance. I love the object guard exercise. As there is no tracking component so that leaves many traits untested.

As for protection, just as with IPO it would depend on the individual dog and how it is trained whether the dog is a prey monster or more serious. Though truthfully the majority of Ring dogs I've seen have definitely leaned more toward the prey monster type.


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## meldy

Doc said:


> It's quickly turning into sports entertainment. Call me an old fart, but this has been going for years. The quote ' better the bred' is irrelevant because most who are into the sports of dogs thinks that mean to breed a higher drive dog, one that bites better, one that pouncing up and down and barks at a teepee. All the things that should only be a minor aspect of a balanced German shepherd. The tear down and separation of bloodlines that were once blended into the breed has destroyed the German shepherd. Too much of one bloodline at the expense of another of three that created the breed will ruin what this breed is suppose to be. Today's sports dogs are so full of Thuringian bloodlines and lack Swabian bloodlines which results in high drive, prey monsters that will bite at the drop of a hat. This is exactly what the Nazis did in WWII and it contributed to the death of Stephanitz according to his daughter.
> These sport venues will only speed up the decline and demise of the true German shepherd that Max sent a life time building and protecting.


 
Which one of these bloodlines is the original herding dog? I thought it was the Thuringian...but you're saying those are prey monsters (maybe the word monster is throwing me off)

Arent the Nazi's a good portion of the reason the GSD is the dog it is today? (by that I mean the smart, athletic, trainable, fiercely loyal dog)


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## carmspack

Chris Wild said:


> Oh absolutely. I know it's all IPO now so it's technically all sport and no longer really a breed test, and I agree that the quality of the training has dictated many of the rule changes and also the individual judges' interpretation of those rules.
> 
> But I consider that a very bad thing for the breed. Striving to avoid that 28 way tie shouldn't be the driving force, but it is. This puts way too much control over the direction of the breed in the hands of a few dozen individuals at a half dozen big events a year. That 99pt dog from 15 years ago shouldn't be barely squeaking by today.
> 
> I've heard from several friends in Europe that one of the newer trends with some judges is to only give full points on the long down to the dog who watches the blind where the handler is for the entire exercise. Now for starters, no where in the rules does it say that. The dog is just supposed to remain settled and not move. If he does, he should get 10pts. But some judges are finding a way to take a point for a dog who fulfills all of the requirements of the rules. No doubt another attempt to sort out the tie.
> 
> But the problem is that this sort of undermines one of the purposes of the long down test from a temperament evaluation standpoint and can end up rewarding the wrong type of temperament.... the dog with the busy mind who can't settle well and who remains in drive for a full 10 minutes while doing absolutely nothing. Yes, of course training is a part of that. But from a breeder's standpoint *I* want to see the dog who is able to settle and be calm and turn off his drive for the exercise that requires it, and then turn on again when he goes on the field (or depending on trial order, vice versa and turn off after having been on). Watchful, not sleepy, but not buzzing with energy, staring laser beams at the handler, ready to spring up. For the out of motions, that is the behavior the dog should show. For the long down, the dog should settle. This trend in judging will reward the type of dog who doesn't settle but rather remains in drive when he shouldn't.
> 
> My opinion of course, I'm sure others will disagree. But I do find myself paying a lot more attention to the dog in the long down than I used to, looking for the dog's mental state during the exercise.


 

I like this very much and I think it is precisely what Elmar Mannes was talking about !!

How do you break those 28 way ties . At what point does that measure have meaning or value.
Olympics , just finished, predicament of super human athletic ability . Placements determined by one one hundredth of a seconds difference, not even detectable to the human eye. At some point is gets silly.

Dr Rommel , 1983 SV President at that time said that it is disgraceful to observe that it is not for the love for the animal, the GSD breed , but the handler's ambitions that dominate. 

Koos Haasing Tiekerhook , clearly understands "there are at least two different kinds of dogs: one that is bred for high Schutzhund scores, and the other for work. The former has high prey drive and often focuses on the sleeve in protection work. Koos feels a "real" working dog should focus on the person . He says that selecting a stud solely based on high Schutzhund scores will bring little value to the breed."
Later in the SchH USA 2007 interview Koos says that while people want hard drivey dogs , and this is good for the breed, handlers , training directors and helpers (paraphrasing) don't know what to do with this kind of dog , not on the scene as often anymore , and this can lead to problems , performing below those top level scores.


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## carmspack

the Wurttemberger , Swabian lines are the "herding lines" , heavier set bone , different coat , sometimes a soft or drop ear -- slower to aggravate, not so much one to start the fight , definitely the one to finish it. I would call it an intermediate irritability -- not too dull , not too sharp , not reactive. I look to pedigrees that preserve these lines and carefully balance other portions of gene resources. 
The Thuringian dog is where the erect ear comes from.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/191718-thuringian-gsd-lines-nervy-but-fast.html


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## Chris Wild

hunterisgreat said:


> IPO1 should demonstrate your dogs genetic makeup. If IPO3 is a showcase of training skill with a good dog, thats fine, but lets make it clear that at this point, it is equal parts training skill and dog's ability. Maybe even have the judging/scoring more clearly show what parts are a result of training skill/error, and what parts are the dogs quality/fault...


I had quite a long discussion along these lines over coffee with Helmut Raiser back in 2008 where he mentioned that this sort of thinking was a big part of his creation of RSV2000. That the breed test, SchH1, had become too much of a training test and no longer tested the dog as it should. Too much focus was put on the training and to the point that even though rule changes had made some of the temperament test aspects easier, it is in many cases actually taking most people far longer to get a dog ready to trial for a 1 than it used to because of the finesse needed in the training to get a decent score. 

One thing I've come to appreciate with some of the Eastern European systems is this sort of differentiation in what the judge is looking for and how the points are allocated based on the levels. Such as the Czech ZVV system, where the 1 level is truly a breeding test and requires only minimal training and puts the focus primarily on testing and scoring the dog and thus can be achieved reasonably at a younger age with a more raw dog. And then the 3 level is for competition and thus requires far more extensive and polished training to achieve a good score.


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## carmspack

and then we had someone asking about the "heeling" portion of a police service dog doing a demonstration, under complete self control , and control of handler , every thing quick and clean , an awareness of the environment --- but the heeling and the obedience looked different to the super Ginogenelli type trial delivery.


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## meldy

Lordy I'd best back away from the bloodline research while Im ahead or I'll really drive myself crazy!! >.< Im having a hard enough time just understanding all the sports and how they work lol

Great reads on this forum though...and Im slowly working my way through all the foundation information =) Seems to me most of the dogs we see are descendent of the Thuringian lines? (why? why was there such a huge change from a dog that was assertive to a more aggressive one?)

I think I'll be happy to trust my breeder to chose the bloodlines and puppy I get. I think that's my smartest bet at this point  Just figure out what the heck I want to do and make sure I make that very clear

Additionally! anyone who has "real/solid' dogs they think are good examples of the type, or, alternatively, good examples of nervy types I'd be interested to see the difference.(trials and articles, youtube vids) Feel free to inbox me with suggestions!


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## Doc

onyx'girl said:


> Doc, what exactly do you do with your dogs to prove they're breedworthy? Not being snarky but truly curious?


You are being snarky; because a well balanced German shepherd will never win the current show ring or score high in sport entertainment because they are too balanced. My dogs do SAR, police work, Sch., and very few other sports. Because I have maintained balance in my breedings, my dogs will never be recognized as show line or sporting dogs.
If you want to see how the history and genetic makeup has changed in the German shepherd, read my book titled 'Reflections from the Dog House'. It should be available around April.

Stephanitz never promoted increasing the Thuringian bloodlines in his breed. It took a very small percentage of Thuringian blood to make the breed functional as an all purpose dog - he says not much more than 25% which happens to be the percentage of Thuringian blood found in Horand. As you increase that percentage, you loose the balance and therefore change the dog. Today, when someone is looking for a sport dog that scores points biting and running down a field to attack, they try to find an over abundance of Thuringian blood in their dog. It only makes sense. However, those were not the type of dog that Max created nor had in mind when he carefully selected the early breedings.
And not that it really matters, but my last litter was donated to a Guide school in hopes of being Guide dogs in the future - something that German shepherds once ruled but have fallen out of graces because balanced German shepherds are hard to find.


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## carmspack

Doc quote "However, those were not the type of dog that Max created nor had in mind when he carefully selected the early breedings."

and when he did he ran into problems and had to correct by going back to females from working herding Wurtemberger lines ---


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## meldy

Doc said:


> because a well balanced German shepherd will never win the current show ring or score high in sport entertainment because they are too balanced. My dogs do SAR, police work, Sch., and very few other sports. Because I have maintained balance in my breedings, my dogs will never be recognized as show line or sporting dogs.
> 
> ...because balanced German shepherds are hard to find.


This pretty much just insulted every breeder here...and would leave someone like me thinking I had no hope in **** of ever finding a sane dog.

From your list of all the things your dogs do doesn't that make them sporting dogs?


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## Doc

meldy said:


> Lordy I'd best back away from the bloodline research while Im ahead or I'll really drive myself crazy!! >.< Im having a hard enough time just understanding all the sports and how they work lol
> 
> Great reads on this forum though...and Im slowly working my way through all the foundation information =) Seems to me most of the dogs we see are descendent of the Thuringian lines? (why? why was there such a huge change from a dog that was assertive to a more aggressive one?)
> 
> I think I'll be happy to trust my breeder to chose the bloodlines and puppy I get. I think that's my smartest bet at this point  Just figure out what the heck I want to do and make sure I make that very clear
> 
> Additionally! anyone who has "real/solid' dogs they think are good examples of the type, or, alternatively, good examples of nervy types I'd be interested to see the difference.(trials and articles, youtube vids) Feel free to inbox me with suggestions!


I have listed 200 of the original dogs used in breeding the German shepherd and what bloodline they would fall under. Unfortunately, many of the dogs used have unknown origins. In the list you will find that Swabian dogs were used a great deal to balance the characteristics of the Thuringian dogs. Included in the book is a list of characteristics of the 4 breeds used to make up the German shepherd breed.


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## meldy

Doc said:


> I have listed 200 of the original dogs used in breeding the German shepherd and what bloodline they would fall under. Unfortunately, many of the dogs used have unknown origins. In the list you will find that Swabian dogs were used a great deal to balance the characteristics of the Thuringian dogs. Included in the book is a list of characteristics of the 4 breeds used to make up the German shepherd breed.


 
Where is this list?


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> Doc quote "However, those were not the type of dog that Max created nor had in mind when he carefully selected the early breedings."
> 
> and when he did he ran into problems and had to correct by going back to females from working herding Wurtemberger lines ---


Why the Wurtemberger over the Swabian?


----------



## Doc

meldy said:


> This pretty much just insulted every breeder here...and would leave someone like me thinking I had no hope in **** of ever finding a sane dog.
> 
> From your list of all the things your dogs do doesn't that make them sporting dogs?


Well, unfortunately, there are breeders who breed sporting dogs and swear they are balanced German shepherds. 
My dogs used to be known as Working line dogs until someone changed the definition. A 'working line' dog today is a sport dog that probably would fail as a Guide dog based on nerve and temperament.
I will say it again, balanced German shepherds - like the ones Stephanitz created - are hard to find. And folks breeding muti-purpose German shepherds are more rare.


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## Doc

meldy said:


> Why the Wurtemberger over the Swabian?


They are basically the same. It is a region in Germany that was made up of farmers. There dogs worked daily on the farm, many times as shepherds of sheep. They bred dogs that would tend their flocks and protect them from other animals. They were Guardian sheep dogs or shepherds. Their characteristics were much different than the Thuringian 'Yard' dogs whose job was to guard the wealthy estates and chase off into the country side and attack thieves or robbers.
The Swabian dogs always kept the German shepherd centered and was always used to correct the over active Thuringian.


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## meldy

Doc said:


> They are basically the same. It is a region in Germany that was made up of farmers. There dogs worked daily on the farm, many times as shepherds of sheep. They bred dogs that would tend their flocks and protect them from other animals. They were Guardian sheep dogs or shepherds. Their characteristics were much different than the Thuringian 'Yard' dogs whose job was to guard the wealthy estates and chase off into the country side and attack thieves or robbers.
> The Swabian dogs always kept the German shepherd centered and was always used to correct the over active Thuringian.


 
And they have now been essentially bred out of the current working dog? Leaving dogs that are almost strictly Thuringian?


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## crackem

Those dogs died over 100 years ago. The Nazi's haven't had a breeding program since the 40's. This is the 20tens. What kind of dogs do you like? If you haven't decided, go look at more dogs, on the field, off the field, in the house. Find what you like. When you do, I won't matter what was 100+ years ago, and if you don't, it won't matter what its ancestors were 100 years ago either.

The Swabian may have been used to "correct" an over active Thurningian, but I gotta believe a Thuringian kept the swabian from becoming just another LGD type dog. There's a reason we got a "balanced" dog and balance works both ways. 

If one type of dog had it all, they wouldn't use other types to bring anything to the table. 

Eitherway, all of that was a long time ago. Go look at dogs today to find the dog you want now.


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## Doc

meldy said:


> And they have now been essentially bred out of the current working dog? Leaving dogs that are almost strictly Thuringian?


If you ask me, and a few others, yes. The percentage of Swabian blood in most German shepherds is very small now. By selectively breeding the best 'bite' dogs - which are adrenaline driven and high in Thuringian blood- it reduces/masks the balance from the Swabian lines which are serotonin driven with high thresholds.


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## Doc

crackem said:


> Those dogs died over 100 years ago. The Nazi's haven't had a breeding program since the 40's. This is the 20tens. What kind of dogs do you like? If you haven't decided, go look at more dogs, on the field, off the field, in the house. Find what you like. When you do, I won't matter what was 100+ years ago, and if you don't, it won't matter what its ancestors were 100 years ago either.
> 
> The Swabian may have been used to "correct" an over active Thurningian, but I gotta believe a Thuringian kept the swabian from becoming just another LGD type dog. There's a reason we got a "balanced" dog and balance works both ways.
> 
> If one type of dog had it all, they wouldn't use other types to bring anything to the table.
> 
> Eitherway, all of that was a long time ago. Go look at dogs today to find the dog you want now.


You can not understand the dogs of today unless you study the dogs of the past. I don't care how long you have been involved with German shepherds. You can not understand if you think the foundational dogs and the breedings that changed the breed are not real today. Do you honestly thinks the genetics have changed? You think the genetics are not the same as they were when the breed started? One should preach out of the book if they don't understand what is written in it. JMO
Yes, it's all about balance - the balance of 4 distinct dogs. The problem today is that the balance has disappeared.


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## carmspack

a balanced pedigree is hard to find , and a balanced, versatile , dog is hard to find .

Wurttemberger brought in intelligence and pack drive, directability , the desire to work in co-operative , tolerance, lower irritability , not reactive, not one to provoke a fight , but definitely one to finish .

Saxon/ Schwabian pretty much the same , very courageous , brought fight drive to the man . This branch could HGH herd and be used for police and protective work. 

Dogs, Claudius Hain, and Junker Nassau if you want to be serious in study.

Thuringian were defensive reactive , quick .

A pedigree that would lack balance would be Sagus Busecker Schloss, Yoschy Dollenwiese, Crok Erlenbush all on one -- look for unprovoked aggression, extreme angry type aggression . 

It's all about knowing what lines can contribute , not about scores or points. 

You can go to the BSP results, pick your winners and parse the pedigrees to see what % of blood they have what % of a particular dog is in the pedigree of competitors and winners. 

The Thuringian portion were the show lines of the day


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> a balanced pedigree is hard to find , and a balanced, versatile , dog is hard to find .
> 
> Wurttemberger brought in intelligence and pack drive, directability , the desire to work in co-operative , tolerance, lower irritability , not reactive, not one to provoke a fight , but definitely one to finish .
> 
> Saxon/ Schwabian pretty much the same , very courageous , brought fight drive to the man . This branch could HGH herd and be used for police and protective work.
> 
> Dogs, Claudius Hain, and Junker Nassau if you want to be serious in study.
> 
> Thuringian were defensive reactive , quick .
> 
> A pedigree that would lack balance would be Sagus Busecker Schloss, Yoschy Dollenwiese, Crok Erlenbush all on one -- look for unprovoked aggression, extreme angry type aggression .
> 
> It's all about knowing what lines can contribute , not about scores or points.
> 
> You can go to the BSP results, pick your winners and parse the pedigrees to see what % of blood they have what % of a particular dog is in the pedigree of competitors and winners.
> 
> The Thuringian portion were the show lines of the day


Thanks! Now I have my evening homework! =)


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> a balanced pedigree is hard to find , and a balanced, versatile , dog is hard to find .
> 
> Wurttemberger brought in intelligence and pack drive, directability , the desire to work in co-operative , tolerance, lower irritability , not reactive, not one to provoke a fight , but definitely one to finish .
> 
> Saxon/ Schwabian pretty much the same , very courageous , brought fight drive to the man . This branch could HGH herd and be used for police and protective work.
> 
> Dogs, Claudius Hain, and Junker Nassau if you want to be serious in study.
> 
> Thuringian were defensive reactive , quick .
> 
> A pedigree that would lack balance would be Sagus Busecker Schloss, Yoschy Dollenwiese, Crok Erlenbush all on one -- look for unprovoked aggression, extreme angry type aggression .
> 
> It's all about knowing what lines can contribute , not about scores or points.
> 
> You can go to the BSP results, pick your winners and parse the pedigrees to see what % of blood they have what % of a particular dog is in the pedigree of competitors and winners.
> 
> The Thuringian portion were the show lines of the day


I wrote a perl script that could determine exactly what percentage of DNA a given dog had from a given ancestor


----------



## crackem

Doc said:


> You can not understand the dogs of today unless you study the dogs of the past. I don't care how long you have been involved with German shepherds. You can not understand if you think the foundational dogs and the breedings that changed the breed are not real today. Do you honestly thinks the genetics have changed? You think the genetics are not the same as they were when the breed started? One should preach out of the book if they don't understand what is written in it. JMO
> Yes, it's all about balance - the balance of 4 distinct dogs. The problem today is that the balance has disappeared.


yes you can. put a dog in front of me and I can tell an awful lot about it. Most of all I can tell you what a dog IS and not what the paper says it should be


----------



## DaniFani

Doc said:


> It's quickly turning into sports entertainment. Call me an old fart, but this has been going for years. The quote ' better the bred' is irrelevant because most who are into the sports of dogs thinks that mean to breed a higher drive dog, one that bites better, one that pouncing up and down and barks at a teepee. All the things that should only be a minor aspect of a balanced German shepherd. The tear down and separation of bloodlines that were once blended into the breed has destroyed the German shepherd. Too much of one bloodline at the expense of another of three that created the breed will ruin what this breed is suppose to be. Today's sports dogs are so full of Thuringian bloodlines and lack Swabian bloodlines which results in high drive, prey monsters that will bite at the drop of a hat. This is exactly what the Nazis did in WWII and it contributed to the death of Stephanitz according to his daughter.
> These sport venues will only speed up the decline and demise of the true German shepherd that Max sent a life time building and protecting.


Doc, but couldn't you argue that you are going to just another extreme? You are constantly saying there is too much Thuringian in the bloodlines and not enough Swabian. Fine, but neither one, in and of itself, was what it was supposed to be. There is a reason they were blended, to create a utility dog. I could have the same arguments as you are, except put "swabian" characteristics in, instead of Thuringian, when it comes to the "pet lines." 

I just don't get why you are so against one extreme, and yet seem to be extraordinarily biased towards the other extreme. I feel like you cling to examples of extreme in size and lower drive to achieve your point. You do NOT come off as someone who really wants a well balanced dog, but as someone who would prefer the breed to be just as "over whelmed" with Swabian as you claim is happening with Thuringian in the working lines. It's fine, whatever you like to breed, breed....it's the snarkiness that you have towards any kind of sport venue that's just silly.

If you have examples of perfection and balance in sport, police, and seeing eye, would you please post videos/examples of these dogs? The only reason I'm asking is you are so adamantly against sport, are constantly belittling it with language like "teepees, sleeve monsters, biting monsters, biting anything, etc..." For someone with such strong viewpoints as this, surely you would be more than happy to educate all us young'uns. I'm also so tired of the wheelchair, senior-citizen references...I mean, come on...stop acting like you've been here since the beginning of time and had tea with Stephantiz at the beginning of the breed. You are the same age as many with different view points as you, who feel just as passionately about where the breed is going.

ETA: I should preface that I agree there are problems in the sport world, just like the show world, and the "pet world." However, your language and written tone in these types of threads is that any and all IPO/Sport dogs/trainers have **** dogs, that are over active, too sharp, and not what the breed should be. You seem so incredibly biased against them, and yet seem to promote another extreme. There are people (and a lot more than I think is portrayed by some of the doom and gloom) in sports that are breeding and working towards balance, there are in every venue. Anyway, that's my humble and apparently "way to young to have an opinion" opinion.


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## onyx'girl

I am older than Doc.... just sayin' 
It gets old hearing how old he claims to be


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## carmspack

may as well drag this over here http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...one-three-landraces-were-used-create-bre.html


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## Gwenhwyfair

huh? 

serotonin driven? 



Doc said:


> If you ask me, and a few others, yes. The percentage of Swabian blood in most German shepherds is very small now. By selectively breeding the best 'bite' dogs - which are adrenaline driven and high in Thuringian blood- it reduces/masks the balance from the Swabian lines which are *serotonin driven* with high thresholds.


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## RocketDog

onyx'girl said:


> I am older than Doc.... just sayin'
> It gets old hearing how old he claims to be


Aren't you in a wheelchair by now? :laugh:


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## onyx'girl

RocketDog said:


> Aren't you in a wheelchair by now? :laugh:


not yet, but I do drive a mini van now....


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## RocketDog

That's ok. Crackem's getting one too any day now.


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## crackem

getting one? I've had one, since 2006. Better yet, it was MY idea to get one  I need room for my bitches.

or did you mean a wheelchair? cause i'm not that far along yet. But I know when I am, fartin' dust old isn't too far off


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## Doc

I only preach about Swabian dogs because so few in here know about them. My dogs are balanced - not a Golden in shepherd clothing, which is the party line nowadays from the so-called "working line" breeders. 
This breed will continue its decline and division as long as people fail to study and appreciate the history, breeders, and dogs that built the foundation.


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## hunterisgreat

Doc said:


> I only preach about Swabian dogs because so few in here know about them. My dogs are balanced - not a Golden in shepherd clothing, which is the party line nowadays from the so-called "working line" breeders.
> This breed will continue its decline and division as long as people fail to study and appreciate the history, breeders, and dogs that built the foundation.


I'm unfamiliar with the dogs, Swabian, or Thuringian, etc.

Please describe what your dogs are that working line breeders are not presently producing?


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## carmspack

was pretty much agreeing with you until this "not a Golden in shepherd clothing, which is the party line nowadays from the so-called "working line" breeders. "

no way --- never heard that sentiment. Working needs balance , prey, fight , tractable , athletic build , determination, energy , hardness and heart , off and on .


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## Doc

onyx'girl said:


> not yet, but I do drive a mini van now....


Jane, why you think you know me is beyond me. You sound as if you are stalking me in your Hoover scooter. Maybe you should consider a pup from my next litter - they will be wheelchair assistant dogs. But then again, my dogs are just big and lazy, and will not have any titles or points and therefore a couch potato incapable of doing 'work' and poor example of a German shepherd.


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## carmspack

the very foundation of the breed "I'm unfamiliar with the dogs, Swabian, or Thuringian, " 

already have a lot of threads and posts covering this .


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## onyx'girl

Doc said:


> Jane, why you think you know me is beyond me. You sound as if you are stalking me in your Hoover scooter. Maybe you should consider a pup from my next litter - they will be wheelchair assistant dogs. But then again, my dogs are just big and lazy, and will not have any titles or points and therefore a couch potato incapable of doing 'work' and poor example of a German shepherd.


You are on FB Louie...you aren't transparent. I don't stalk you at all, but have seen enough posts from you on certain pages. 
I don't understand why you are so bitter and defensive. You should be proud of what you are producing instead of constantly defending your program.


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## carmspack

let's not have another thread become silly --

Meldy there is a lot to learn. Even if you started studying anything presented on this thread that would be equivalent to the first sentence in a thick book.
Some things you can't learn by reading or seeing on a youtubey. You need to go out and see dogs. Read everything you can . Listen . 
Surround yourself with mentors and experienced people.
Discover what resources are available to you and that includes clubs, and trialing ability if you want to pursue this. 
Find a breeder that you are comfortable with where ever that person may be , local , or import . 
In the end no matter what line of activity you are going to do you need a stable , healthy dog .
Go ---- Find


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## Doc

carmspack said:


> was pretty much agreeing with you until this "not a Golden in shepherd clothing, which is the party line nowadays from the so-called "working line" breeders. "
> 
> no way --- never heard that sentiment. Working needs balance , prey, fight , tractable , athletic build , determination, energy , hardness and heart , off and on .


You haven't heard that because people know you breed balanced dogs. But on this forum, all untitled or pointless German shepherds are either 'just pets' or over-sized freaks. And like I said earlier, somewhere along the way, the sports crowd deemed that they had the corner on 'working line ' dogs and the dogs that guide the blind, help the handicapped, calms the PTSD veteran, and detect sugar drops, cancers, etc are viewed as something else besides a working line dog.
Good luck to the OP in finding a dog that makes her happy.


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> I only preach about Swabian dogs because so few in here know about them. My dogs are balanced - *not a Golden in shepherd clothing, which is the party line nowadays from the so-called "working line" breeders.*
> This breed will continue its decline and division as long as people fail to study and appreciate the history, breeders, and dogs that built the foundation.


And your party line is "biting machines/monsters, sleeve focused, over the top, no off switch...etc, etc, etc".....You do realize you are exhibiting the exact kinds of behaviors and techniques you get so bent out of shape about?? You are, quite literally, the exact opposite extreme of what you don't like. Both are one and the same, just swap out "extreme" for "dull" or "hyperactive" for "slug", or "aggressive" for "nervy." You jump to the same extremes, same stereotypes, and same fear mongering, but for the opposite side. 

You're old enough, you should recognize that good ol' phrase, "hi kettle, I'm pot." Or...maybe you were there when that phrase was invented. 

You claim to want balance. I just don't see it. Last we chatted you didn't mention anything about dogs in sports or police, your examples were wheelchair service dogs. Now you're claiming they *are* in police and IPO. I'd love to see videos of those dogs working and their pedigrees. 

If you're so willing to criticize and make excuses for all the sports breeders and their dogs, please...educate and show us your dogs being successful and balanced in these arenas. I'll gladly eat my hat. Again...I'm only asking because you are so quick to broad brushstroke judge almost all the dogs that are in sports as terrible and unbalanced for the breed. Anyone so openly critical, surely will be able to provide evidence of their own "perfect, balanced, breedworthy, dog." 

In turn, I'm sure many MANY here, could post videos of their "bite crazy, teepee focused, sleeve obsessed" working lines, snuggling with family members, being calm in the home, playing with strangers, kissing strange kids, becoming friends with strange/new dogs...I'm sure a lot even could post pics of the dog performing well in a "therapy" type environment (hospital, hospice, etc). Which discredits most of your claims and fears about the working line dooming the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> the very foundation of the breed "I'm unfamiliar with the dogs, Swabian, or Thuringian, "
> 
> already have a lot of threads and posts covering this .


yeah I was reading one just now lol.


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## carmspack

"And like I said earlier, somewhere along the way, the sports crowd deemed that they had the corner on 'working line ' dogs and the dogs that guide the blind, help the handicapped, calms the PTSD veteran, and detect sugar drops, cancers, etc are viewed as something else besides a working line dog."

I can sort of see where you might be going with this . What I encounter is the recognition of a breeding program that produces this being overlooked because there are no titles.


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## meldy

Doc said:


> My dogs are balanced - not a Golden in shepherd clothing, which is the party line nowadays from the so-called "working line" breeders.
> This breed will continue its decline and division as long as people fail to study and appreciate the history, breeders, and dogs that built the foundation.


Ive not heard the 'party line' yet either and Im actually shopping (albeit very tentatively right now) Most working line 'breeders' talk about the amount drive their dogs have or produce. Almost strictly that is generally the line of conversation. I do put breeders in quotations though as a lot of the people I started off contacting have no real business breeding dogs IMO. The breeder pool Im finding now that I am a little more secure in what to ask and look for is a lot more what Im looking for with much better quality dogs but as a newbie starting out I went local and looked for titles and pedigrees (without actually understanding any of it...it sure looks flashy on paper though) and locally it was all about drive. Without even asking me what I wanted people were willing to sell me a dog. 

*I should add though! that the way breeders approached selling me a puppy at first was probably a good part due to my own ignorance in asking the right questions or knowing what to look for* Just a slight disclaimer...

I think the breed in decline is a matter of perspective. Every domesticated animal has to evolve. Look at warmblood horses...they were originally produced for battle. As warhorses or to pull cannons etc. What purpose would such horses serve now? 
I don't see how a GSD has and will evolve in a similar fashion. Very few of them are actually used to herd now.


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> "And like I said earlier, somewhere along the way, the sports crowd deemed that they had the corner on 'working line ' dogs and the dogs that guide the blind, help the handicapped, calms the PTSD veteran, and detect sugar drops, cancers, etc are viewed as something else besides a working line dog."
> 
> I can sort of see where you might be going with this . What I encounter is the recognition of a breeding program that produces this being overlooked because there are no titles.


 
Is there no service dog certification? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a title?


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## DaniFani

Doc said:


> You haven't heard that because people know you breed balanced dogs. But on this forum, all untitled or pointless German shepherds are either 'just pets' or over-sized freaks. And like I said earlier, somewhere along the way, *the sports crowd deemed that they had the corner on 'working line ' dogs and the dogs that guide the blind, help the handicapped, calms the PTSD veteran, and detect sugar drops, cancers, etc are viewed as something else besides a working line dog.*
> Good luck to the OP in finding a dog that makes her happy.


:crazy: I believe what was actually said was, a dog that is truly balanced, can do the "sleeve obsessed, bite anything, crazy" sport of IPO...but then can also be cross trained or trained in many of the areas you describe. I don't believe it was said anywhere, that those areas weren't valuable and very important. You're trying to tell me someone said real service dogs weren't admirable?!! You deduced that through defensive interpretation.

A good family friend in michigan trains service dogs for the paralyzed, as well as seeing eye dogs. Those dogs are very VERY important, and no one disputed that. Only that *breedable* dogs, ideally, should be able to produce the whole sha-bang. 

Carm's program is not questioned because she's capable and does, put dogs in all the arenas listed above, successfully. She also will post examples and talk about any of her dogs....it's not a secret she defends.


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## carmspack

this is true " Very few of them are actually used to herd now. " but the essence which allowed them to herd is the raison d'etre . When all things are present and in balance the dog is such a joy to work with . 
You start deviating too much , get out of balance too much then you can't predict what comes - that is your crap shoot .


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## RocketDog

meldy said:


> Ive not heard the 'party line' yet either and Im actually shopping (albeit very tentatively right now) Most working line 'breeders' talk about the amount drive their dogs have or produce. Almost strictly that is generally the line of conversation. I do put breeders in quotations though as a lot of the people I started off contacting have no real business breeding dogs IMO. The breeder pool Im finding now that I am a little more secure in what to ask and look for is a lot more what Im looking for with much better quality dogs but as a newbie starting out I went local and looked for titles and pedigrees (without actually understanding any of it...it sure looks flashy on paper though) and locally it was all about drive. Without even asking me what I wanted people were willing to sell me a dog.
> 
> *I should add though! that the way breeders approached selling me a puppy at first was probably a good part due to my own ignorance in asking the right questions or knowing what to look for* Just a slight disclaimer...
> 
> I think the breed in decline is a matter of perspective. Every domesticated animal has to evolve. Look at warmblood horses...they were originally produced for battle. As warhorses or to pull cannons etc. What purpose would such horses serve now?
> I don't see how a GSD has and will evolve in a similar fashion. Very few of them are actually used to herd now.



I understood him to mean that any dog or program that wasn't titled in the sport world was a golden in GSD clothing. I could be wrong.


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> this is true " Very few of them are actually used to herd now. " but the essence which allowed them to herd is the raison d'etre . When all things are present and in balance the dog is such a joy to work with .
> You start deviating too much , get out of balance too much then you can't predict what comes - that is your crap shoot .


 
Now if the original herding dog was the essence of a GSD why did anyone change it? Ive been googling...reading about the SV and Phylax society etc. It seems like 'working dogs' have always been in dispute as to what should qualify as a working dog.
It seems here the issue is the definition itself and what defines work.
Out of curiosity is the split/disbanding of the Phylax society and the group that was more concerned with appearance as opposed to work the reason we now have SL and WL dogs?


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## Doc

Herding is a manifestation of genetic obedience and nerve. If you forget those elements in breeding, you have changed what the breed was known for. 
If the only thing a breeder can talk to you about is the drive in their dog then something is bad wrong. I would find a breeder that knows about nerve, genetic obedience, temperament, and a laundry list of other important pieces that make up a well rounded, balanced dog. JMO


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## meldy

RocketDog said:


> I understood him to mean that any dog or program that wasn't titled in the sport world was a golden in GSD clothing. I could be wrong.


 
I took it as a statement on temperament and sort of the easy going nature of old school GSD's as opposed to the tighter wound ones that represent the other extreme.
Im happy to see Im not the only one that deals in black and white!!


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## meldy

Doc said:


> Herding is a manifestation of genetic obedience and nerve. If you forget those elements in breeding, you have changed what the breed was known for.
> If the only thing a breeder can talk to you about is the drive in their dog then something is bad wrong. I would find a breeder that knows about nerve, genetic obedience, temperament, and a laundry list of other important pieces that make up a well rounded, balanced dog. JMO


 
I figured the breeder issue out already, with a lot of help from a lot of great people, but it is sort of a statement on the types of dogs being offered to newbies. Temperment always seemed like an after-thought. As long as you have the cash there are people who will sell you "crazy with fur" without even asking what you want to do with the dog.


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## Vandal

I've pretty much said all there is to say on this topic but I do think if people saw more of the dogs who bring it on the field,. with strong fight drive, nerve etc.....and if there were more good training helpers to bring those dogs along, we would see a shift. I watch the reactions of people when they watch really powerful, "serious" dogs. Most are quite excited by those kinds of dogs but the problem comes down....as always...to training. It is a shame there are not more people interested enough in preserving the sport to spend some time training new helpers. Out here, helpers learn the basics and immediately set up a Paypal account to collect money from the people who allowed them to learn on their dogs. Paying helpers, who spend most of their time trying to make the dogs "look good", is a big problem... if you ask me. 

Also David Winner, I have worked both of Shade's dogs and they are not simply "prey dogs"


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## Doc

What I am trying to say is that the breed wasn't created as a sport dog. Stephanitz used a much different SchH test to determine breed worthiness NOT for a dog to score points and 'win'. In the past, the dog passed or failed. Those that failed were not put in the book and therefore was not used as much in breeding. It was the blending of genetics from the 4 breeds that Stephanitz used to create a national dog for Germany. He didn't breed show line German shepherds or Border Patrol Dogs or Attack Dogs; he created a dog capable of doing many things and all of them well. 
Now we have different sport associations that can get along about stick hits, points scoring, etc. but the dogs that do well are held up as exemplary examples of the breed.


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## onyx'girl

> It is a shame there are not more people interested enough in preserving the sport to spend some time training new helpers.


Here is one that is trying to help helpers...and so far isn't asking for a dime for his time and knowledge. I'm still waiting for the paypal link to pop up, however! I hope there will be interest in doing hands on seminars(and not trial helper, but training helper) after more people subscribe to this blog;
PronouncedK9 | Fundamentally Sound Protection Dog Training


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## meldy

Doc said:


> What I am trying to say is that the breed wasn't created as a sport dog. Stephanitz used a much different SchH test to determine breed worthiness NOT for a dog to score points and 'win'. In the past, the dog passed or failed. Those that failed were not put in the book and therefore was not used as much in breeding. It was the blending of genetics from the 4 breeds that Stephanitz used to create a national dog for Germany. He didn't breed show line German shepherds or Border Patrol Dogs or Attack Dogs; he created a dog capable of doing many things and all of them well.
> Now we have different sport associations that can get along about stick hits, points scoring, etc. but the dogs that do well are held up as exemplary examples of the breed.


...but the word Schutzhund literally translates as 'protection dog' doesn't it?? How was the test different? I get that the scoring is different but how was the testing itself different?


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## martemchik

meldy said:


> ...but the word Schutzhund literally translates as 'protection dog' doesn't it?? How was the test different? I get that the scoring is different but how was the testing itself different?


Here's what you have to separate...those that do the sport to compete (highest points possible) and those that do it to test their dog's drives/temperament. What doc is talking about is that in today's world more people look at the dogs that are doing exceptionally well in Schutzhund in order to pick breeding mates, rather than truly looking at the standard and breeding to the standard. Because of the way Schutzhund has evolved to be scored...there are certain things that get you more points which are probably not exactly to the GSD standard.


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## meldy

martemchik said:


> Here's what you have to separate...those that do the sport to compete (highest points possible) and those that do it to test their dog's drives/temperament. What doc is talking about is that in today's world more people look at the dogs that are doing exceptionally well in Schutzhund in order to pick breeding mates, rather than truly looking at the standard and breeding to the standard. Because of the way Schutzhund has evolved to be scored...there are certain things that get you more points which are probably not exactly to the GSD standard.


 
Like what? Is this where the nerve issue comes into play? 

Did the testing evolve to accommodate more breeds, as it is now all breed right? Im just wondering why something that started out as a breeding quality test morphed so much over the 100 yrs it's been used that it now doesn't really have anything to do with the reason it was developed to begin with. 

Is there alternative temperament testing (BH etc) that are more quality control? although those seem to be all breed as well...


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## boomer11

imo the good do everything dogs usually comes from hobby breeders and not big name kennels. breeders who actually work their dogs and when they get a really good one, want to pass on the genes.

with that said i would question anyone who said they have a litter that can be service dogs and police dogs. if thats the case then you have some very mediocre police dogs and some mediocre therapy dogs. those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. i also dont think a gsd should be doing therapy type work. gsd who do those types of work are truly goldens in shepherds clothing.


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## Vandal

> with that said i would question anyone who said they have a litter that can be service dogs and police dogs. if thats the case then you have some very mediocre police dogs and some mediocre therapy dogs. those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. i also dont think a gsd should be doing therapy type work. gsd who do those types of work are truly goldens in shepherds clothing.


I'm sorry but that is just a ridiculous comment.


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## meldy

boomer11 said:


> imo the good do everything dogs usually comes from hobby breeders and not big name kennels. breeders who actually work their dogs and when they get a really good one, want to pass on the genes.
> 
> with that said i would question anyone who said they have a litter that can be service dogs and police dogs. if thats the case then you have some very mediocre police dogs and some mediocre therapy dogs. those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. i also dont think a gsd should be doing therapy type work. gsd who do those types of work are truly goldens in shepherds clothing.


 
I hope this isn't true >.< I'd like a dog with the ability to do both...I might not do both but I'd like to be able to take my IPO dog to a seniors home and let people pet him/her without worrying about a bunch of seniors getting ripped to shreds...


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## ayoitzrimz

boomer11 said:


> imo the good do everything dogs usually comes from hobby breeders and not big name kennels. breeders who actually work their dogs and when they get a really good one, want to pass on the genes.
> 
> with that said i would question anyone who said they have a litter that can be service dogs and police dogs. if thats the case then you have some very mediocre police dogs and some mediocre therapy dogs. those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. i also dont think a gsd should be doing therapy type work. gsd who do those types of work are truly goldens in shepherds clothing.


I don't know about all that my friend, you need to go out and meet more dogs outside of a Schutzhund club I think


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## boomer11

ayoitzrimz said:


> I don't know about all that my friend, you need to go out and meet more dogs outside of a Schutzhund club I think


maybe thats true but imo i dont think a gsd should be all tail wagging wanting to meet every stranger. they should be aloof and not care about strangers.


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## David Winners

Vandal said:


> Also David Winner, I have worked both of Shade's dogs and they are not simply "prey dogs"


Thanks for the information. I should not have made any assumption about her dogs. I was just using her as an example of a more positive trainer that uses play/prey more in training.

I apologize for any negative connotation.


David Winners


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## David Taggart

No breeding programmes and no genetics produce behavioral clones. You wouldn't find two identical grass stalks on the whole planet, you wouldn't find two identical people unless they are twins, but it's not all to it - two puppies in the same litter could be trained one into Schutz champion and another would fail with the first trial. That one who has failed can win in Agility, the third puppy can turn as a perfect cadaver dog, and the forth as a therapy dog. Our dogs have personalities, no breeder breeds personalities, and no breeder provides any garantee. The matter here is not in the breed, but in trainers, it is no good buying a sports car if you cannot drive. And, the cost of sports dog puppy, even the most expensive one is nothing in comparison to his training and travel. Herding? You have to have your own farm and sheep in addition to your dog you want to train herding. Well, someone has, and they do train WLGSDs. So, the working line happens to become something exquisite, a sort of the breed's elite-
1) expensive puppy without any garantee;
2) one puppy out of many litters, who finally goes for blue ribbons;
3) long term training and costs;
4) the trainer's personal perseverance and considerable experience;
Show line exists purely for the dog's looks. It's a pity, a great shame as well. But people are visual creatures, we always bothered about our appearance. Someone has golden fish, someone has GSD. Very much about US. But, the original country has different standards for GSD, nobody would allow you to split the line to such an extent and forget that GSD were bred for their intellect - all dogs must be Schutzhund tested, nobody breeds them without it. Interestingly from here, that US breeders prefer to import dogs from Germany to continue American Show line!
IMHO, working line is for a specific elite, and show line does well for general public.


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## onyx'girl

David Taggart, that was a very good post, I actually understood you...your own words?


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## David Taggart

Thank you, Jane. Probably not, not all my words. I think, it's with everybody, you agree or disagree with the authors you read, and the words of those who you agree with become a part of your own vocabulary. As you see, the future of GSD as a breed, is not indifferent to me. As many here, I think that "old-fashioned" GSD was a better dog, better bred and better trained. Since police and army no longer employ these wonderful dogs in same nimbers as before, the breed is falling into public domain. Luckily, there are many enough people who are interested in breeding intellectual dogs instead of show dogs, with whom no intellect is required.


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## crackem

Vandal said:


> I'm sorry but that is just a ridiculous comment.


I concur


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## Doc

boomer11 said:


> imo the good do everything dogs usually comes from hobby breeders and not big name kennels. breeders who actually work their dogs and when they get a really good one, want to pass on the genes.
> 
> with that said i would question anyone who said they have a litter that can be service dogs and police dogs. if thats the case then you have some very mediocre police dogs and some mediocre therapy dogs. those are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. i also dont think a gsd should be doing therapy type work. gsd who do those types of work are truly goldens in shepherds clothing.


Oh my.:help:


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## boomer11

maybe you guys could educate me on my ridiculous statement instead of just calling it ridiculous?


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## Doc

Perhaps you could explain your statement so we get an understanding of your confusion. Also, I never said all my litters came out of the same sire or dam. Just another assumption.


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## boomer11

what part needs explaining? seems pretty clear and concise to me. you are the one who keeps wanting to look at dogs of the past so tell me were these dogs intended to love strangers and want to greet them all? or were they suppose to be aloof? were they bred for their potential to guard or for their potential for friendliness? i personally wouldnt want a dog that approaches people with tail wagging. i want one that just watches them from a distance and then mind its own business.

do you think a police dog could retire and become a therapy dog?? imo i do not because the temperment required for the work are like i said, polar opposites. if you tell me you have a dog that could do both i'd say that dog is good at neither job and just mediocre. btw i wasnt even talking directly to you. i could care less what you produce. anyone who has to get defensive is probably producing crap anyways. good breeders let their dogs do the talking.


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## crackem

boomer11 said:


> maybe you guys could educate me on my ridiculous statement instead of just calling it ridiculous?


because when you breed dogs that have all the "stuff" in them, you get litters of puppies that are capable of doing pretty much anything. When you have nerve and drive and health, you have everything. There is no reason a dog with strong nerve and high drive can't have the thresholds to be a perfect service dog. Just like a dog that loves it's people, may not seek out attention by others, but when put in that situation, can be a calming, loving dog in a therapy setting>


They can do whatever you ask them, and they love doing it. A high drive dog with great nerves and everything else might absolutely love to bite. It will probably absolutely love to take your direction and do everything in the world except bite and be just as happy.


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## onyx'girl

boomer11 said:


> what part needs explaining? seems pretty clear and concise to me. you are the one who keeps wanting to look at dogs of the past so tell me were these dogs intended to love strangers and want to greet them all? or were they suppose to be aloof? were they bred for their potential to guard or for their potential for friendliness? i personally wouldnt want a dog that approaches people with tail wagging. i want one that just watches them from a distance and then mind its own business.
> 
> *do you think a police dog could retire and become a therapy dog?*? imo i do not because the temperment required for the work are like i said, polar opposites. if you tell me you have a dog that could do both i'd say that dog is good at neither job and just mediocre. btw i wasnt even talking directly to you. i could care less what you produce. anyone who has to get defensive is probably producing crap anyways. good breeders let their dogs do the talking.


My males sire was a retired police K9 and then when on to be certified as a therapy dog and had other titles after retirement. He was a balanced dog, and not mediocre whatsoever. 
Andy Maly Vah PSA1, SchH3, IPO3, PDK-9 (Ret.), CDX, RN, TC, TDI/CGC


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## boomer11

crackem said:


> because when you breed dogs that have all the "stuff" in them, you get litters of puppies that are capable of doing pretty much anything. When you have nerve and drive and health, you have everything. There is no reason a dog with strong nerve and high drive can't have the thresholds to be a perfect service dog. Just like a dog that loves it's people, may not seek out attention by others, but when put in that situation, can be a calming, loving dog in a therapy setting>
> 
> 
> They can do whatever you ask them, and they love doing it. A high drive dog with great nerves and everything else might absolutely love to bite. It will probably absolutely love to take your direction and do everything in the world except bite and be just as happy.


very good answer (by onyx girl too). i guess my problem is that the dog doesnt love doing the job. its not doing something it naturally loves but then again not many of us love our jobs either.


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## Packen

It's amazing the amount of crap that can get sold by crafty salespeople in the name of bettering the breed and the long explanations about why the real deal cannot achieve anything anymore even at club level! But hey, it's a free country


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## carmspack

"do you think a police dog could retire and become a therapy dog?? imo i do not because the temperment required for the work are like i said, polar opposites"

If I find examples does that mean we need to prepare for another Polar Vortex? 

hey ! I was going to mention a favourite of Cliff and myself , Andy Maly Vah .

I have many of my dogs in service doing public relations and doing school tours.
Kawartha Lakes Police Service 

Kawartha Lakes Police Service 

Purina Hall of Famer Keno
*KENO:* Keno, a five-year-old German Shepherd, owned by Constable John Gerrits, suffered severe injures in his successful attempt in capturing a breaking-and-entering suspect. Constable Gerrits and his police service dog Keno answered an emergency call about a breaking-and-entering in progress. 

When they arrived at the scene, the suspect had already begun to escape from the crime area. During the chase, Keno rounded a corner and was struck by an on-coming car. Despite Keno's severe bleeding from the accident, the canine continued to chase the suspect. Keno quickly caught up with the suspect and tackled him to the ground. He then gripped the criminal's arm, allowing the officers to arrest him. As a result of the accident, Keno required stitches in his leg and suffered head injuries. "

with pride that's my dog , son of Grando Mecklenburger Buffel and Tetley .

He served as one of the first dogs with Toronto along with his half brother Tell -- who did a great deal of public relations , opening civic squares . When he retired he was the ambassador dog at the vet clinic that was responsible for the care of the K9's in service. He met customers and their dogs in the clinic - 

There are others .

The point is that the greater the nerve base , the more balanced they are the more versatile they are.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Packen said:


> It's amazing the amount of crap that can get sold by crafty salespeople in the name of bettering the breed and the long explanations about why the real deal cannot achieve anything anymore even at club level! But hey, it's a free country



Its all the Thuringian's fault!


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## carmspack

some of these dogs are deceiving . They can be so normal , almost appearing "soft" (but NOT) in their family environment that you wouldn't think the dog had aggression --- but they do .

Blitz comes to mind . His brothers went to Detroit and one stayed in Ontario - PD service dogs. Blitz was earmarked but got himself into a bit of trouble on a jump he volunteered and had damage done to growth plates where the radius and ulna meet. We did 9 plates on him , before doing the surgery .
Even with the cast on he would run beside me -- 
Because of the prolonged healing period and fear of re-injury , and time passing , the dog was recommended to not enter training.

So I held on to him. The kids could put a harness on him and he would haul big branches out of the back wooded area. He loved little babies . Not dog aggressive --- but please don't start a fight with him --- no unwarranted displays of aggression.
When he was back on his feet so to say , training started . Fantastic -- dead serious . Did muzzle work with him and he would punch the man down . Bite work crunched . 
The dog ended in New Jersey prison, later in a Max facility in New Mexico -- 
Carmspack Blitz

before being sent he did sire a few litters for myself


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## carmspack

can you explain why "








Its all the Thuringian's fault!







"


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## mycobraracr

Vandal said:


> if there were more good training helpers to bring those dogs along, we would see a shift. I watch the reactions of people when they watch really powerful, "serious" dogs. Most are quite excited by those kinds of dogs but the problem comes down....as always...to training. It is a shame there are not more people interested enough in preserving the sport to spend some time training new helpers. Out here, helpers learn the basics and immediately set up a Paypal account to collect money from the people who allowed them to learn on their dogs. Paying helpers, who spend most of their time trying to make the dogs "look good", is a big problem... if you ask me.



There are still some of us out there trying to learn all we can to be the best helpers possible. For me being a trial helper/decoy is boring. It's the same crap over and over. I thoroughly enjoy the problem solving and working the dogs in different drives, making them switch between them. I get calls to work people's dogs for money weekly, but the way I see it is as long as I pay a trainer to teach me, I shouldn't be charging others.


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## carmspack

mycobra - totally different non thread question. what are the dynamics between the dog and the decoy in your avatar -- for teaching purposes . If you want to remove the young lady handler and just show a larger image of decoy and dog ? If the OP and others who we advise to go out to clubs to have a look at dogs , and they are newbies , they would have no clue as to what they are seeing .


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## mycobraracr

carmspack said:


> mycobra - totally different non thread question. what are the dynamics between the dog and the decoy in your avatar -- for teaching purposes . If you want to remove the young lady handler and just show a larger image of decoy and dog ? If the OP and others who we advise to go out to clubs to have a look at dogs , and they are newbies , they would have no clue as to what they are seeing .




I'm the decoy in the picture. I was working the handler dog team through an SDA style "attack". They(mainly handler) are prepping for their protection 1. The handler alerts the dog on a passive person (decoy) and the decoy then turns and charges the dog. The decoy is to get close and swing the stick down like they are going to hit the dog. During this, the decoy is trying to run the dog. Good dogs, do just as this dog is doing. They stay out protecting the handler, trying to bite the decoy. Does this answer your question or would you like some further explanation?


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> can you explain why "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its all the Thuringian's fault!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "


I dont put much if any credence in dogs that where around 100 years ago or even 50 years ago.. I was being snarky.

I also happen to agree with packen about people on here hyping up their average or below average dog or making excuses for it and blaming IPO.

The way some folks are talking on here you wonder if they have ever been to an IPO club or trial much less actually trained..


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## meldy

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I dont put much if any credence in dogs that where around 100 years ago or even 50 years ago.. I was being snarky.
> 
> I also happen to agree with packen about people on here hyping up their average or below average dog or making excuses for it and blaming IPO.
> 
> The way some folks are talking on here you wonder if they have ever been to an IPO club or trial much less actually trained..


 
Is this pretence that average dogs cannot do IPO not that IPO has turned into something other than the original breed test?
So then wouldn't it still be a valid breed test if the dogs that cant do it shouldn't be doing it anyway?

But then doesn't that also depend on what the breed is really supposed to be since there is some dispute about the type of dog that excels in IPO and that type not being true to the breed.


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## carmspack

very complex issues meldy . Dogs that are in IPO can and are true to the breed . Some aren't . Then you have to differentiate whether a behaviour is natural to the dog , or learned . I was going to mention this on the prey monkeys thread ....


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## Gwenhwyfair

When I was riding dressage my trainer was working with other trainers for the higher level movements she competed at (she was riding at Prix St. Georges and up which is getting pretty advanced). She apprenticed with an Olympic Dressage rider. She was a much higher level then I, but not quite a national level rider herself, but I still respected the fact that she was always seeking to improve her skills and I paid her.

I think it's o.k. for you to charge, at least to cover some of your costs, gas, equipment, ice packs.....

Just food for thought.



mycobraracr said:


> There are still some of us out there trying to learn all we can to be the best helpers possible. For me being a trial helper/decoy is boring. It's the same crap over and over. I thoroughly enjoy the problem solving and working the dogs in different drives, making them switch between them. I get calls to work people's dogs for money weekly, *but the way I see it is as long as I pay a trainer to teach me,* *I shouldn't be charging others*.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...and a free market, at least when it comes to dogs.

You should see what some breeders are getting for the 'doodle' dogs, speaking of marketing. 

Personally, I'm hoping to get a working line someday but I'm going to spend my time researching the breeder more then anything. 




Packen said:


> It's amazing the amount of crap that can get sold by crafty salespeople in the name of bettering the breed and the long explanations about why the real deal cannot achieve anything anymore even at club level! *But hey, it's a free country*


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## meldy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> When I was riding dressage my trainer was working with other trainers for the higher level movements she competed at (she was riding at Prix St. Georges and up which is getting pretty advanced). She apprenticed with an Olympic Dressage rider. She was a much higher level then I, but not quite a national level rider herself, but I still respected the fact that she was always seeking to improve her skills and I paid her.
> 
> I think it's o.k. for you to charge, at least to cover some of your costs, gas, equipment, ice packs.....
> 
> Just food for thought.


 
Yay another rider!! I rode 3day for years and years!!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah! I didn't get into the jumping too much, I was a dressage nerd for years, mostly with off the wall TBs.  

It was and still is quite a gear shift going from being so heavily involved with 'prey' animals mostly to predator animals.

I think dogs are more complicated, especially when you get into breeds like GSDs and the different drives they have.

It's interesting as you are asking a lot of questions that were same/similar to the questions I had at first, I'm only a few steps ahead of you on this path. So I hope you don't mind me sharing some observations I've gleaned over the last few years.

There's a dog out there to fit just about what anyone wants. From really serious working/competition dogs to dogs that would do well in a sport home & some PP, to those who come on this board specifically wanting a much more laid back dog as companion only. 

It's a sliding continuum of types of dogs vs _types of owners_. 

Some of the breeders on this board and that I've met elsewhere have been doing this 20 years or more. I'll never have the knowledge base they have so IMO it's better to know what you want and then find a good breeder who is best able to help you fulfill the goals you have. Also, a good breeder may take you down a notch or two to protect you from getting 'too much dog' for your experience level.....sort-a like you don't want to start a new to 3 day eventing person on a fresh OTTB. 





meldy said:


> Yay another rider!! I rode 3day for years and years!!


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## Gwenhwyfair

btw, still trying to figure out what the heck 'serotonin drive' is?


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## meldy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yeah! I didn't get into the jumping too much, I was a dressage nerd for years, mostly with off the wall TBs.
> 
> It was and still is quite a gear shift going from being so heavily involved with 'prey' animals mostly to predator animals.
> 
> I think dogs are more complicated, especially when you get into breeds like GSDs and the different drives they have.
> 
> It's interesting as you are asking a lot of questions that were same/similar to the questions I had at first, I'm only a few steps ahead of you on this path. So I hope you don't mind me sharing some observations I've gleaned over the last few years.
> 
> There's a dog out there to fit just about what anyone wants. From really serious working/competition dogs to dogs that would do well in a sport home & some PP, to those who come on this board specifically wanting a much more laid back dog as companion only.
> 
> It's a sliding continuum of types of dogs vs _types of owners_.
> 
> Some of the breeders on this board and that I've met elsewhere have been doing this 20 years or more. I'll never have the knowledge base they have so IMO it's better to know what you want and then find a good breeder who is best able to help you fulfill the goals you have. Also, a good breeder may take you down a notch or two to protect you from getting 'too much dog' for your experience level.....sort-a like you don't want to start a new to 3 day eventing person on a fresh OTTB.


 
I love the wealth of knowledge here! And I remember the days on those fresh off the track nuts lol So much fun! They're probably pretty comparable to what people here are calling sporty dogs hey? Most OTTB's grow brains with different handling and feeding...and once they get to go out and be horses for a little while.
I wonder how accurate that comparison is? Then the bloodline thing actually half makes sense to me when I think of horse lines...
And comparing modern GSD's to warmbloods


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## meldy

Gwenhwyfair said:


> btw, still trying to figure out what the heck 'serotonin drive' is?


 
Happy juice? dogs that bite with a smile?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup but I think a better analogy is Quarter horses. Also bred to be an all around working animal. Now you've got the halter (conformation) horses, racing quarters (sometimes appendix) and the old 'bull dog' ranch types and everything in between. To a more skilled eye you stand these three types next to each other and they could almost be different breeds, they also tend to have different temperaments too.

OTTBs, depends. I had one that never could relax into the bit, always wanted to 'run through it'. Yet he learned to neck rein and went nicely on a trail with a loose rain and tom thumb snaffle. Then I had another that ended up loving dressage and for a TB had lovely gaits with more suspension.

Never did make it into warmbloods (though I wanted to) but that's a whole 'nuther story.







meldy said:


> I love the wealth of knowledge here! And I remember the days on those fresh off the track nuts lol So much fun! They're probably pretty comparable to what people here are calling sporty dogs hey? Most OTTB's grow brains with different handling and feeding...and once they get to go out and be horses for a little while.
> I wonder how accurate that comparison is? Then the bloodline thing actually half makes sense to me when I think of horse lines...
> And comparing modern GSD's to warmbloods


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## Gwenhwyfair

meldy said:


> Happy juice? dogs that bite with a smile?


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## Doc

Two types of stimulants - adrenalin on one end of the scale, serotonin on the other. Thuringian = Adrenalin pushes, stimulates, motivates, etc. the results are quick to bite, quick to anger. These are the 'Yard ' dogs that guarded to wealthy estates
Swabian/Wurttember = Serotonin is a calming stimulant, the results are slow to anger, slow to bite. These are the farm dogs that worked all day herding.


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## carmspack

thanks mycobra -- wish you were closer , looks like you have the moves and physicality of a French ring guy -- 
I wondered about the dogs frame of mind because he is forward , but sitting on his hock and the leash has slack -- but that could be the instant in which the picture froze that moment in time.

this is a good dog in your opinion?


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## meldy

Doc said:


> Two types of stimulants - adrenalin on one end of the scale, serotonin on the other. Thuringian = Adrenalin pushes, stimulates, motivates, etc. the results are quick to bite, quick to anger. These are the 'Yard ' dogs that guarded to wealthy estates
> Swabian/Wurttember = Serotonin is a calming stimulant, the results are slow to anger, slow to bite. These are the farm dogs that worked all day herding.


 
I thought dopamine was the opposite from serotonin...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you for the explanation it was the 'drive' part that confused me.

I appreciate what you're saying but since these actual types of dogs are long dead (yes?) has the level of these hormones ever been put to scientific testing?

Just curious.



Doc said:


> Two types of stimulants - adrenalin on one end of the scale, serotonin on the other. Thuringian = Adrenalin pushes, stimulates, motivates, etc. the results are quick to bite, quick to anger. These are the 'Yard ' dogs that guarded to wealthy estates
> Swabian/Wurttember = Serotonin is a calming stimulant, the results are slow to anger, slow to bite. These are the farm dogs that worked all day herding.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's a neurotransmitter hormone and I thought low levels of it caused depression? Low levels could express itself as aggression in a dog I suppose?



meldy said:


> I thought dopamine was the opposite from serotonin...


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## Gwenhwyfair

Two leashes, one looks slack, the one that appears to be on a flat collar looks taught.



carmspack said:


> thanks mycobra -- wish you were closer , looks like you have the moves and physicality of a French ring guy --
> I wondered about the dogs frame of mind because he is forward , but sitting on his hock and the leash has slack -- but that could be the instant in which the picture froze that moment in time.
> 
> this is a good dog in your opinion?


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## meldy

mycobraracr said:


> I'm the decoy in the picture. I was working the handler dog team through an SDA style "attack". They(mainly handler) are prepping for their protection 1. The handler alerts the dog on a passive person (decoy) and the decoy then turns and charges the dog. The decoy is to get close and swing the stick down like they are going to hit the dog. *During this, the decoy is trying to run the dog*. Good dogs, do just as this dog is doing. They stay out protecting the handler, trying to bite the decoy. Does this answer your question or would you like some further explanation?


 
What does this phrase mean?


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## carmspack

from the kids song "my eyes are dim I cannot see, I have not brought my specs with me , I have not brought my specs with me"

too many very late nights lately. I didn't see it on the avatar -- now that you point it out -- yeah right there in plain sight .

no mistaking the great decoy work though !!


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## Gwenhwyfair

carmspack said:


> from the kids song "my eyes are dim i cannot see, i have not brought my specs with me , i have not brought my specs with me"
> 
> too many very late nights lately. I didn't see it on the avatar -- now that you point it out -- yeah right there in plain sight .
> 
> No mistaking the great decoy work though !!


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## martemchik

meldy said:


> What does this phrase mean?


Get the dog to retreat...run and hide.

To someone that is just learning or just got a GSD...your expectation is that your dog will protect you no matter what because the breed has a reputation for that type of work. The truth is, that many dogs will turn and run when they are TRULY challenged by either a decoy, or by a real threat. It is a very unrealistic expectation to think your dog will protect you in a real life situation if you haven't tested it, or trained it to do so.

You'll see many people think their dog is protective when its barking at everything that walks by their property...in truth, most dogs are doing this because they are saying, "stay back, look how big I sound, don't come near me and actually threaten me because I don't really want to deal with that."

You'd be super surprised at what I've seen freak dogs out to the point that they shut down and don't want anything to do with anything.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Get the dog to retreat...run and hide.
> 
> To someone that is just learning or just got a GSD...your expectation is that your dog will protect you no matter what because the breed has a reputation for that type of work. The truth is, that many dogs will turn and run when they are TRULY challenged by either a decoy, or by a real threat. It is a very unrealistic expectation to think your dog will protect you in a real life situation if you haven't tested it, or trained it to do so.
> 
> You'll see many people think their dog is protective when its barking at everything that walks by their property...in truth, most dogs are doing this because they are saying, "stay back, look how big I sound, don't come near me and actually threaten me because I don't really want to deal with that."
> 
> You'd be super surprised at what I've seen freak dogs out to the point that they shut down and don't want anything to do with anything.


Most dogs simply cannot be trained to do it "in real life". It takes a special specimen to be an actual real world protection dog.


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## meldy

hunterisgreat said:


> Most dogs simply cannot be trained to do it "in real life". It takes a special specimen to be an actual real world protection dog.


 
Is this sort of not just something that naturally occurs in confident dogs? Im only saying that as none of our farm dogs ever backed down from anything or anyone...even charging momma-bears >.< (or ostrichs) It's expected of the great pyrennes...but not the malamute or the st bernardXmastiff.
Our GSD was never challenged in any way so I don't know how she would have handled it.


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## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> Is this sort of not just something that naturally occurs in confident dogs? Im only saying that as none of our farm dogs ever backed down from anything or anyone...even charging momma-bears >.< (or ostrichs) It's expected of the great pyrennes...but not the malamute or the st bernardXmastiff.
> Our GSD was never challenged in any way so I don't know how she would have handled it.


At its core its the same sort of genetic ability yes. However, having that sort of response to a human is a bit different than to another animal.


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## martemchik

hunterisgreat said:


> Most dogs simply cannot be trained to do it "in real life". It takes a special specimen to be an actual real world protection dog.


Right...but the only way to test this in a dog is probably a "training situation" so that you do know that the dog can do it. I guess the point is, that you shouldn't just assume that your dog is capable of that type of work unless you take him/her to a training to see if its capable.


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## martemchik

meldy said:


> Is this sort of not just something that naturally occurs in confident dogs? Im only saying that as none of our farm dogs ever backed down from anything or anyone...even charging momma-bears >.< (or ostrichs) It's expected of the great pyrennes...but not the malamute or the st bernardXmastiff.
> Our GSD was never challenged in any way so I don't know how she would have handled it.


I was going to say that you've had some good dogs then. But its not something that you should expect out of any dog that you'll own. The only way to know, is to test. And you don't want a real life situation to be the first test and then see your dog cower and run.

And like hunter said, dogs react different to human challenges. They've been bred to trust humans, and therefore its a very different reaction when a human attacks. It's the reason behind why dogs can be dog aggressive and want to kill any dog that comes within 3 feet of them, but be super loving to humans. It's why some breeds that are known to not like dogs, and look very mean/aggressive are not known for being good guard dogs...they've been bred to accept humans.


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## hunterisgreat

martemchik said:


> Right...but the only way to test this in a dog is probably a "training situation" so that you do know that the dog can do it. I guess the point is, that you shouldn't just assume that your dog is capable of that type of work unless you take him/her to a training to see if its capable.


Yes and even worse, many people don't understand what they are looking at and get a false sense of sureness their dog will perform under those circumstances


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## meldy

martemchik said:


> I was going to say that you've had some good dogs then. But its not something that you should expect out of any dog that you'll own. The only way to know, is to test. And you don't want a real life situation to be the first test and then see your dog cower and run.


 
I sorta think I maybe have never had a bad dog...and worry if maybe that's skewed my perception of what dogs really are. If that even makes sense. Ive never had a dog that I didn't like, that misbehaved in any major way (except the malamute killing chickens) or that I ever thought was a bad dog. We had a farm and four kids at home. Our dogs were fabulous and I wouldn't have traded any one of them for anything. Ive only started to notice traits that I don't like now that Im focussing so much on temperments etc but all the dogs I 'don't like" belong to other people lol So maybe Im just a princess and my dogs are better =P


----------



## meldy

martemchik said:


> Right...but the only way to test this in a dog is probably a "training situation" so that you do know that the dog can do it. I guess the point is, that you shouldn't just assume that your dog is capable of that type of work unless you take him/her to a training to see if its capable.


 
This goes to the difference between IPO dogs and PPD dogs. Correct?


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## martemchik

meldy said:


> This goes to the difference between IPO dogs and PPD dogs. Correct?


Not really...as most IPO people will tell you if they know/believe their dogs would protect them in a real life situation. If they're objective, they'll let you know that their dog can only handle so much pressure/stress which might be more or less than what the helper in IPO work puts on a dog.

I'll say that an IPO trained dog is probably more likely to defend its handler than just your regular run of the mill pet dog...mostly because its never seen pressure and as a handler you have no idea how it would react. Where as an IPO dog has proven that it does have the ability to react.

You kind of have to imagine what would happen if a dog bit you...more than likely you'd fight back. You'd kick, scream, grab, punch, ect...and most dogs will not keep biting/fighting through this kind of pressure. A properly trained PPD dog would get tested in this type of situation. An IPO dog, doesn't get that type of pressure or training.

Doesn't mean that some IPO dogs aren't capable of withstanding that kind of pressure...just means their handlers don't see a need to test them to that threshold.

As to your dogs...you never really "tested" them either. They were good pet dogs that did things that you remember and they were probably excellent animals. You were probably not knowledgeable enough to distinguish between the different drives they were exhibiting at different situations that stick out in your memory.


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## meldy

martemchik said:


> As to your dogs...you never really "tested" them either. They were good pet dogs that did things that you remember and they were probably excellent animals. You were probably not knowledgeable enough to distinguish between the different drives they were exhibiting at different situations that stick out in your memory.


 
Absolutely. Our dogs did what we needed of them with no training. I don't know why...they just did. The seemed to take the borders of our farm very seriously all by themselves but I don't know the details of what motivated them to do it. They did and that's all I needed. Beyond the very basic "come, sit, down, get it/get out of it" we really didn't teach them anything. They had no problem taking on people either, hence the warning not to get out of vehicles on our property. Granted, like you say, no one pushed them either. They weren't exactly Chihuahua's...we always had really big, imposing dogs. Any person with half a brain would rather just not risk it.


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## meldy

Reading the Prey monkey thread I noticed some talk of dogs that focus just on the sleeve...the person doesn't mean anything. Is this a factor of training?


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## hunterisgreat

meldy said:


> Reading the Prey monkey thread I noticed some talk of dogs that focus just on the sleeve...the person doesn't mean anything. Is this a factor of training?


It can be. If a dog's only reward in protection training is a sleeve bite, why would they not focus on the sleeve in front of their face??


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## martemchik

meldy said:


> Absolutely. Our dogs did what we needed of them with no training. I don't know why...they just did. The seemed to take the borders of our farm very seriously all by themselves but I don't know the details of what motivated them to do it. They did and that's all I needed. Beyond the very basic "come, sit, down, get it/get out of it" we really didn't teach them anything. They had no problem taking on people either, hence the warning not to get out of vehicles on our property. Granted, like you say, no one pushed them either. They weren't exactly Chihuahua's...we always had really big, imposing dogs. Any person with half a brain would rather just not risk it.


See...IMO that's not really taking on people. It's doing something and never being corrected for an incorrect behavior. You truly didn't have any idea why your dog was doing what it was doing...just that it was.

Most people will also tell you that that has nothing to do with protection. Your dog would literally "attack" anything and not just true threats. It's a liability rather than an asset. Your dog didn't care at all what the intentions of that person were or who they were, they were just going to bark at them and not let them out of their vehicle. This is not something I would ever expect from a protection dog.

And yes...a person without bad intentions, isn't going to do anything when a large dog barks at him/her. They're going to keep sitting in their car, and "reward" the dog for the behavior its presenting. But...who knows what your dog would do if that person actually did get out and acted threatening and took the power away from your dog...


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## meldy

martemchik said:


> See...IMO that's not really taking on people. It's doing something and never being corrected for an incorrect behavior. You truly didn't have any idea why your dog was doing what it was doing...just that it was.
> 
> Most people will also tell you that that has nothing to do with protection. Your dog would literally "attack" anything and not just true threats. It's a liability rather than an asset. Your dog didn't care at all what the intentions of that person were or who they were, they were just going to bark at them and not let them out of their vehicle. This is not something I would ever expect from a protection dog.
> 
> And yes...a person without bad intentions, isn't going to do anything when a large dog barks at him/her. They're going to keep sitting in their car, and "reward" the dog for the behavior its presenting. But...who knows what your dog would do if that person actually did get out and acted threatening and took the power away from your dog...


Im my dogs defense people did get out of their cars. Jehovahs Witnesses are some of the ballsiest people Ive ever met lol The dogs just watched. They actually rarely barked, I don't even know if the malamute knew how.
They never attacked anyone and we never really worried about them doing it. We had family reunions and such on our property without an issue. Little kids could climb all over our dogs and feed them treats no problem. 
We viewed it as protecting our property. Apparently that was incorrect so Im curious to know what they were doing in doggy terms? 
They ran off bears, coyotes ect so our pigs and cows lived to butcher age and our chickens and ducks could roam freely. They didn't even seem to bother with the deer that shared hay with the horses in the winter. (sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't)

Now I'd like to know if it wasn't protective...what the dogs reasoning was?


----------



## carmspack

martemchik said:


> See...IMO that's not really taking on people. It's doing something and never being corrected for an incorrect behavior. You truly didn't have any idea why your dog was doing what it was doing...just that it was.
> 
> Most people will also tell you that that has nothing to do with protection. Your dog would literally "attack" anything and not just true threats. It's a liability rather than an asset.
> And yes...a person without bad intentions, isn't going to do anything when a large dog barks at him/her. They're going to keep sitting in their car, and "reward" the dog for the behavior its presenting. But...who knows what your dog would do if that person actually did get out and acted threatening and took the power away from your dog...


 totally disagree -- you stay there , until the owner comes to access the situation and the dogs take cue and respond properly . Once the owner is there the dogs are deactivated .
If someone wanders into my home I don't care what their intentions are .

" Your dog didn't care at all what the intentions of that person were or who they were, they were just going to bark at them and not let them out of their vehicle. This is not something I would ever expect from a protection dog."

I would. 

The postman always honks twice. If I am at the back of the property or in the paddock with the horses I will have a dog loose with me. If someone comes into the driveway , they will be greeted . The dog will let me know. I come to see who it is and once I am there the person joins me , comes to the back , into the house , is my guest and the dog is 100% fine .

sounds like good dogs


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## carmspack

raise the alarm , good dog -- there is no need to be taking on people , nor should the dog be corrected -- simple natural bark and hold .. the dog had an idea what it was doing , it took responsibility .
Dogs need to be managed , not micro managed . 


"See...IMO that's not really taking on people. It's doing something and never being corrected for an incorrect behavior. You truly didn't have any idea why your dog was doing what it was doing...just that it was.

"Apparently that was incorrect so Im curious to know what they were doing in doggy terms?" 
Meldy your dogs were perfectly fine .


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> totally disagree -- you stay there , until the owner comes to access the situation and the dogs take cue and respond properly . Once the owner is there the dogs are deactivated .
> If someone wanders into my home I don't care what their intentions are .
> 
> " Your dog didn't care at all what the intentions of that person were or who they were, they were just going to bark at them and not let them out of their vehicle. This is not something I would ever expect from a protection dog."
> 
> I would.
> 
> The postman always honks twice. If I am at the back of the property or in the paddock with the horses I will have a dog loose with me. If someone comes into the driveway , they will be greeted . The dog will let me know. I come to see who it is and once I am there the person joins me , comes to the back , into the house , is my guest and the dog is 100% fine .
> 
> sounds like good dogs


Good for you...

And for those of us that live out in more urban areas, this isn't something we need from our dogs. I don't need the postman to ask for permission to put a letter in my mailbox. My dog would be a liability if people couldn't step foot on my property without the risk of getting barked at or bitten.

But hey, if you're scared of your postman, keep asking him to honk.


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> raise the alarm , good dog -- there is no need to be taking on people , nor should the dog be corrected -- simple natural bark and hold .. the dog had an idea what it was doing , it took responsibility .
> Dogs need to be managed , not micro managed .
> 
> 
> "See...IMO that's not really taking on people. It's doing something and never being corrected for an incorrect behavior. You truly didn't have any idea why your dog was doing what it was doing...just that it was.
> 
> "Apparently that was incorrect so Im curious to know what they were doing in doggy terms?"
> Meldy your dogs were perfectly fine .


Lol...now you're expecting regular people to train their dogs to bark and hold normal people? What a world you live in...


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## carmspack

meldy and I were talking about rural properties -- the behaviour is still good 

in an urban situation , which I have lived in , right in the heart of downtown Toronto , people have to have safe access to your front door -- 
the dog is still the same , had those dogs in Toronto then moved out to country with a very long driveway --- 

a good dog has good self control


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## carmspack

the point is the dog wasn't trained it did so naturally. As I said dogs don't need to be micro managed . They come with behaviours and instincts .


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> raise the alarm , good dog -- there is no need to be taking on people , nor should the dog be corrected -- simple natural bark and hold .. the dog had an idea what it was doing , it took responsibility .
> Dogs need to be managed , not micro managed .
> 
> 
> "See...IMO that's not really taking on people. It's doing something and never being corrected for an incorrect behavior. You truly didn't have any idea why your dog was doing what it was doing...just that it was.
> 
> "Apparently that was incorrect so Im curious to know what they were doing in doggy terms?"
> Meldy your dogs were perfectly fine .


As I said our dogs sure worked for us and we never questioned them in any way shape or form. Nor did anyone who met them...My inlaws actually ended up keeping our StBernardX as they borrowed him due to a problem with bears in their orchard and just didn't want to give him back so he stayed there and remained a superb 'guard' dog for the remainder of his life. He never backed down from a bear. Not once and only got snagged by one once resulting in my father in law having to actually shoot the bear and poor Chevy getting stitched up and breaking some ribs and wearing a cone on his massive head. He never lost his nerve though...continued to take on bears without hesitation after that night. 
I never wondered why they did what they did. They seemed to just naturally know what to do and we left them to it. But then we just took their behaviour as protecting their family/home/territory.


----------



## martemchik

carmspack said:


> the point is the dog wasn't trained it did so naturally. As I said dogs don't need to be micro managed . They come with behaviours and instincts .


And here in the civilized world people don't expect to be greeted with a bark and hold.

It's exactly that type of behavior that causes unnecessary fear of dogs.


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## Vandal

Must be nice that your "urban area" is so safe. In MY urban area, Los Angeles, I appreciate a dog like what Carmen is talking about. They have come in handy more than once. There is nothing wrong with a dog like what she is talking about.


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## RocketDog

Meldy, were these dogs the ones you had growing up? In terms of no training, is it possible that your parents were actually reinforcing and shaping the dogs to be appropriate farm dogs? I have a Scottish friend who was raised on a farm and they had working collies. The never 'formally trained' them, as in took them anywhere for training. The simply shaped behavior from the beginning -- her parents did-- and the older dogs helped too. Usually as parents, there is more going on than the child sees, even a teenager. 

Also, I should add: The pyr was definitely doing what it was bred for, and dogs in the same pack will generally pick up that sense and they do know 'their' property.


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## Vandal

I guess people really don't believe those kinds of dogs ever existed. Now everyone believes it all has to be training or shaping etc. How sad. I think reinforcement back then was not freaking out over every little thing a protective dog did. People had more animals sense. Now, every move a dog makes is directed, corrected, trained or managed. Oh well.


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## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I guess people really don't believe those kinds of dogs ever existed. Now everyone believes it all has to be training or shaping etc. How sad. I think reinforcement back then was not freaking out over every little thing a protective dog did. People had more animals sense. Now, every move a dog makes is directed, corrected, trained or managed. Oh well.


Who has two thumbs and believes those dogs exist and lets his dogs do what comes natural and only intervenes when he has to?

This guy


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## RocketDog

Well, I didn't mean they shaped with a clicker or something. I for one do believe that and I think those dogs still do exist. I've had one. But what I'm saying: is that a kid often doesn't see the work that goes into a puppy. They only remember the final product.

Often farmers would get the pup and the pup would go everywhere with them on the farm. It 'learned' the farm, it 'learned' it's job. That's shaping. It learned the family's way. A good dog will shine and be what is it supposed to be in this scenario.


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## Smithie86

David Winners said:


> This brings up a good point. National / World level trainers are going to work dogs that fit their system. Mike Diehl is going to work LE type dogs. Stefan Schaub is going to work a powerhouse. Shade Whitesel is going to work prey dogs. The dog fits the trainer.



Not always. Husband has 4 different dogs he is working; 2 already IPO3 and competed at Worlds (1 6x and 1 2x), 1 in training for IPO (just turned 2) and another in foundation work (just turned 1). 

One of the IPO3s and both young dogs from our breeding program. Similar pedigrees, but different dogs in terms of work. 

He does not find a dog that fits a "system". He works dogs that he likes and training changes, depending on the dog.


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## Liesje

The thing with owning these dogs in a very urban environment.... people think ANY dog that you can run up to and hug as a complete stranger is an aggressive monster that should be euthanized. I have a real scenario that I think is relevant here and I would be interested in talking about yet I don't because who knows who is reading and wanting to paint all my dogs with a bad brush and take them away? My dog was actually kicked by a complete stranger and yet I am the one feeling guilty about the whole thing even years later even though I know what my dog did and didn't do is *exactly* what I would want!


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## hunterisgreat

Smithie86 said:


> Not always. Husband has 4 different dogs he is working; 2 already IPO3 and competed at Worlds (1 6x and 1 2x), 1 in training for IPO (just turned 2) and another in foundation work (just turned 1).
> 
> One of the IPO3s and both young dogs from our breeding program. Similar pedigrees, but different dogs in terms of work.
> 
> He does not find a dog that fits a "system". He works dogs that he likes and training changes, depending on the dog.


But he has an idea of what is a dog "he likes" and that dog, is his "type".


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## carmspack

So true " guess people really don't believe those kinds of dogs ever existed. Now everyone believes it all has to be training or shaping etc. How sad. I think reinforcement back then was not freaking out over every little thing a protective dog did. People had more animals sense. Now, every move a dog makes is directed, corrected, trained or managed. Oh well."

micro managed , as if they came as empty vessels and all they do is your input ----

the very genetics of our breed required the dog to take initiative and responsibility , without the shepherd giving direction and commands for every action .

IF the dog(s) (ones and twos) are out and I am in the back they will proceed to the front to see what is happening , bark, I will catch up , once I am there the postie comes out of the vehicle opens the back hatch and together we bring in a heavy parcel -- or I sign for some customs receipt etc. The dog (s) will follow , prance along . 
When I have company looking at the dogs they will announce that you have come . Once I am out - not a peep . Any one can see any of my dogs -- give me a name, I open the kennel door , they come out give an investigative greeting and then they mind their own business . The dogs come out off leash , without collars --- all and any no exceptions 

ask Gus's owner -- 

even the young pups -- 8 weeks of age , car coming up the drive and they will depart , make a good 20 - 30 foot distance away from me , bark , then greet , no scooting off . confident .

we need to understand native drives more ---


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## Smithie86

hunterisgreat said:


> But he has an idea of what is a dog "he likes" and that dog, is his "type".


Hunter,

No. He has no specific type. There are just dogs that he connects with. All are different. I know. I live with them and watch them train and title.


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## meldy

RocketDog said:


> Meldy, were these dogs the ones you had growing up? In terms of no training, is it possible that your parents were actually reinforcing and shaping the dogs to be appropriate farm dogs? I have a Scottish friend who was raised on a farm and they had working collies. The never 'formally trained' them, as in took them anywhere for training. The simply shaped behavior from the beginning -- her parents did-- and the older dogs helped too. Usually as parents, there is more going on than the child sees, even a teenager.
> 
> Also, I should add: The pyr was definitely doing what it was bred for, and dogs in the same pack will generally pick up that sense and they do know 'their' property.


 
No we didn't have any parents (everyone got fixed lol we had more than enough animals without worrying about puppies too!) and Chevy (the st Bernard X) was actually the only one we even got as a puppy. The rest we acquired as adult dogs. We had the pyr and the malamute (balto and Jenna) at the same time but for the most part the rest were all solitary. Even Balto and Jenna came at slightly different times from totally different circumstances. Jenna was a year old when we got her, Balto was four.
Gotta farm life...everyone thinks their dog should live on one so we got given quite a few dogs over the years just from people who no longer wanted them for whatever reason.
We must have just had the best luck going I think. None of them ever turned out to be anything I would have given up for any amount of money.
Balto ate chickens...we never could break him of it so the chickens got locked up. He tried to eat the piglets once so we threw him in with the big pigs and he decided quickly that pigs weren't his thing. He was the only dog who was a bit of a hassle but was still one of my favorites. He eventually got kicked and killed by an ostrich =(

In response to the 'learning the farm' comment: They had to. It's not really an option to be sedentary on a farm. We had animals to feed, fences to check, sprinklers to move etc etc We basically homesteaded so my 'garden' was an acre and a half. Our kids had collect eggs, and water everyone. Our oldest fed the horses. The kids all walked down the driveway (about a 1/4 mile) to catch the bus and get back off it to go to/from school. The dogs always went with them and were there to meet them when they came home. They were always family members and with whoever was outside all the time. I think that's just a farm dog thing. I dunno, every dog we had was like that so Ive never questioned it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm thinking you meant "can't run up to and hug" and boy that's the truth.* Good point.
*




Liesje said:


> The thing with owning these dogs in a very urban environment.... people think ANY dog that you can run up to and hug as a complete stranger is an aggressive monster that should be euthanized. I have a real scenario that I think is relevant here and I would be interested in talking about yet I don't because who knows who is reading and wanting to paint all my dogs with a bad brush and take them away? My dog was actually kicked by a complete stranger and yet I am the one feeling guilty about the whole thing even years later even though I know what my dog did and didn't do is *exactly* what I would want!


----------



## RocketDog

meldy said:


> *No we didn't have any parents* (everyone got fixed lol we had more than enough animals without worrying about puppies too!) and Chevy (the st Bernard X) was actually the only one we even got as a puppy. The rest we acquired as adult dogs. We had the pyr and the malamute (balto and Jenna) at the same time but for the most part the rest were all solitary. Even Balto and Jenna came at slightly different times from totally different circumstances. Jenna was a year old when we got her, Balto was four.
> Gotta farm life...everyone thinks their dog should live on one so we got given quite a few dogs over the years just from people who no longer wanted them for whatever reason.
> We must have just had the best luck going I think. None of them ever turned out to be anything I would have given up for any amount of money.


You grew up without parents? I think we have a little confusion going on. Were these dogs from your childhood or your adult life?

ETA: Nevermind. I guess it doesn't matter. Moving along.


----------



## meldy

RocketDog said:


> You grew up without parents? I think we have a little confusion going on. Were these dogs from your childhood or your adult life?
> 
> ETA: Nevermind. I guess it doesn't matter. Moving along.


 
LOL I thought you were talking about the dogs learning from their parents on a farm. My bad! sorry!


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## Doc

I guess the thought that a German shepherd knows what a real threat is will get me thrown under the bus. Seems like the German shepherds use to be able to think and react when needed But my medicines are probably messing with my feeble brain.


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## meldy

Doc said:


> I guess the thought that a German shepherd knows what a real threat is will get me thrown under the bus. Seems like the German shepherds use to be able to think and react when needed But my medicines are probably messing with my feeble brain.


 
Isn't this sentiment part and parcel of the whole ongoing debate. The moving away from dogs that were bred to guard to sport dogs?


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Good for you...
> 
> And for those of us that live out in more urban areas, this isn't something we need from our dogs. I don't need the postman to ask for permission to put a letter in my mailbox. My dog would be a liability if people couldn't step foot on my property without the risk of getting barked at or bitten.
> 
> But hey, if you're scared of your postman, keep asking him to honk.



In my opinion if a German Shepherd isn't territorial, there is something wrong with their genetics. I never had one that didn't bark and warn when strangers approach the property or home. Seems instinctual and genetic to me. They stop when I tell them to. If they just lay there and watch strangers wander around on the property I"d look for another breed.


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## Blitzkrieg1

A dog that competes in sport does not equate to being a poor property guardian. The reality is that majority of dog in LE or Mil work are not available for breeding. The majority of working stock are sport titled and compete in sport. All LE dogs are not breeding material, all sport dogs are not breeing material. All LE dogs are not good dogs, all sport dogs are not good dogs. 

There is no black and white. You need to know what a breeder is producing and how the pups are doing.

I will tell you this. I take a breeder with multiple titled successful progeny and titled breeding stock over someone peddling stories about how awesome their dogs are. Results not stories, learn now or learn the hard way.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Here is a police dog that examplifies my last statement.





 
Some prey followed by fear avoidance when the subject fell making an unexpected movement...useless.


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## carmspack

your urban dogs -- 
in the early 70's having bolted out of my parental home and experiencing the freedom of a young person , no kids yet , walking to the Toronto Beaches along Queen St. Approaching , a very dishevelled , man with filthy long matted hair (rasta like but he wasn't rasta ) approaches . He starts talking to himself , before ear buds and cell things . Agitated , cussing , he stops to go into a "hulk" stance and then proceeds to air swipe me and kick the dog who got him in the leg. There were witnesses. 

I took HIM to court for assault . Months later trial -- he is cleaned up , barely recognize him. I was still callow -- but I did it . He got the psych help he needed. That was an appropriate action on the dog . When the crowd came out to hold the guy till the police came the dog was totally copacetic with the commotion , and crowding and excitement. The dog had zero training. That same dog allowed cats to sleep on him , and later my daughter to use him as a pillow while she read her books. She could investigate his nostril. The most he would do is get up and move . 

years later , with a working partner , we take some dogs downtown. Park at Broadview enter the subway system , use the escalators , go up and down a couple of times for the experience , use the multi level steps. Go onto the subway , get out at St George then walk through the U of T campus , down Spadina , which is a mad house. No logic. At a stop sign with both sides of the intersection crowded to spilling over a little Asian girl runs up behind my dog , grabs his neck enclosed in her arms and drops her body weight. The dog is Simon , and all he did was look around to see , saw the child and that was all.
Assessed for service and approved . Decided to hold him back for self. The other dog , also mine I did place with PDS . Simon tested again at age 3 when I thought , yeah maybe he could go to work , as I had his progeny now to continue with. The dog is tied out to a post in the field -- a 10 foot hydro pole type post . Attached to a stallion tie out bungee . Agitated by the PD decoy that came along with the chief . Because they had seen the dog in a normal social situation they weren't prepared . I told the guy , don't under estimate, don't come in . Agitated not in prey , dog comes roaring out with so much intensity that the bungee cord is stretched thing and the decoy is running backwards fast as he can , falling on his behind. Later we do article identification while gunshot fire up close - dog not distracted.

Dogs can be social and safe and tolerate contact - and take a read of a situation AND be full of drive and protection .


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> your urban dogs --
> in the early 70's having bolted out of my parental home and experiencing the freedom of a young person , no kids yet , walking to the Toronto Beaches along Queen St. Approaching , a very dishevelled , man with filthy long matted hair (rasta like but he wasn't rasta ) approaches . He starts talking to himself , before ear buds and cell things . Agitated , cussing , he stops to go into a "hulk" stance and then proceeds to air swipe me and kick the dog who got him in the leg. There were witnesses.
> 
> I took HIM to court for assault . Months later trial -- he is cleaned up , barely recognize him. I was still callow -- but I did it . He got the psych help he needed. That was an appropriate action on the dog . When the crowd came out to hold the guy till the police came the dog was totally copacetic with the commotion , and crowding and excitement. The dog had zero training. That same dog allowed cats to sleep on him , and later my daughter to use him as a pillow while she read her books. She could investigate his nostril. The most he would do is get up and move .
> 
> years later , with a working partner , we take some dogs downtown. Park at Broadview enter the subway system , use the escalators , go up and down a couple of times for the experience , use the multi level steps. Go onto the subway , get out at St George then walk through the U of T campus , down Spadina , which is a mad house. No logic. At a stop sign with both sides of the intersection crowded to spilling over a little Asian girl runs up behind my dog , grabs his neck enclosed in her arms and drops her body weight. The dog is Simon , and all he did was look around to see , saw the child and that was all.
> Assessed for service and approved . Decided to hold him back for self. The other dog , also mine I did place with PDS . Simon tested again at age 3 when I thought , yeah maybe he could go to work , as I had his progeny now to continue with. The dog is tied out to a post in the field -- a 10 foot hydro pole type post . Attached to a stallion tie out bungee . Agitated by the PD decoy that came along with the chief . Because they had seen the dog in a normal social situation they weren't prepared . I told the guy , don't under estimate, don't come in . Agitated not in prey , dog comes roaring out with so much intensity that the bungee cord is stretched thing and the decoy is running backwards fast as he can , falling on his behind. Later we do article identification while gunshot fire up close - dog not distracted.
> 
> Dogs can be social and safe and tolerate contact - and take a read of a situation AND be full of drive and protection .


I agree. I have a very sharp, very civil dog, and my girlfriend trust him around her child more so than her own lab


----------



## carmspack

I said the dog had zero training and that was not entirely true -- he had training , for basic obedience, in fact already had a CD --- no protection whatsoever .


----------



## DaniFani

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Here is a police dog that examplifies my last statement.
> 
> Police Dog Chase - YouTube
> 
> Some prey followed by fear avoidance when the subject fell making an unexpected movement...useless.


Nice example...I don't think *most people realize that there are a LOT of dogs on the streets that shouldn't be. Whenever I hear people come on here saying how their dog's dad was a police K9, so they want to breed it...because it has "police k9" blood in it's lines...I always wonder if it was a good dog or not. Just like sport...dog may have an IPO title, but what did the training and trialing to get to that IPO title look like? Of course we are talking about a subset of dogs that CAN achieve titles and CAN be on the street...but should they be, are they truly exceptional at what they do? Or does the bad guy get into a position to harm humans because the dog hesitated like it did here. Neither of those things (police or IPO titled) necessarily 100% equal a stellar dog.

I know a police canine that is terrified of other dogs, they manage it, but if someone was being chased and ran into the backyard of a barking/growling dog, that K9 would stop completely.


----------



## hunterisgreat

DaniFani said:


> Nice example...I don't think *most people realize that there are a LOT of dogs on the streets that shouldn't be. Whenever I hear people come on here saying how their dog's dad was a police K9, so they want to breed it...because it has "police k9" blood in it's lines...I always wonder if it was a good dog or not. Just like sport...dog may have an IPO title, but what did the training and trialing to get to that IPO title look like? Of course we are talking about a subset of dogs that CAN achieve titles and CAN be on the street...but should they be, are they truly exceptional at what they do? Or does the bad guy get into a position to harm humans because the dog hesitated like it did here. Neither of those things (police or IPO titled) necessarily 100% equal a stellar dog.
> 
> I know a police canine that is terrified of other dogs, they manage it, but if someone was being chased and ran into the backyard of a barking/growling dog, that K9 would stop completely.


This is why I only trust my own opinion from dogs I have in front of my own two eyes


----------



## mycobraracr

carmspack said:


> thanks mycobra -- wish you were closer , looks like you have the moves and physicality of a French ring guy --
> I wondered about the dogs frame of mind because he is forward , but sitting on his hock and the leash has slack -- but that could be the instant in which the picture froze that moment in time.
> 
> this is a good dog in your opinion?



Thanks Carmen:blush:. As already mentioned, there are two leashes. One on an agitation collar and the other on a pinch collar. The loose leash is the one on the pinch collar. The dog appears to be on it's hocks because she is launching at me in this picture. The dog is trying with everything she's got to get me. This is a perfect example of what I would want to see in this scenario. She is actively going for me. Not the sleeve, not the stick but my chest/face. I know this dog well, and yes, I think she's a very nice dog. This dog actually has every SDA title, schH titles, and AKC obedience titles and is basically retired at this point. The handler is very new. So instead of trying to teach the handler what to do while trying to train the dog, we put an experienced dog with a green handler to allow the handler the opportunity to learn without worrying about the dog.


----------



## onyx'girl

And the dog should also be training green helpers now! She has a new job!


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## mycobraracr

onyx'girl said:


> And the dog should also be training green helpers now! She has a new job!




She does! Everyone who comes out and thinks they want to do helper work gets to take a bite from her  not anything from a distance of course. Even at 8 years old she hits like a freight train. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> And the dog should also be training green helpers now! She has a new job!


That's the whole reason I acquirer Aska. New helper training


----------



## carmspack

nothing in this video looks real 



 
movie? simulation? evaluation?

did no one notice that there are two send the dogs episodes ? 

one ends at the 19 mark , the second starts - in this one the dog has a different trajectory running beside the "bad guy" in heel position almost. 

Again the officer backs away to be behind the dumpster, the worlds cleanest dumpster . 

There is only one car and it is far from the action , yet you have half a dozen or so officers . Seems to be a drive way between the two buildings where the action takes place. Vehicles , multiple , would be closer .

The action doesn't seem to affect the two "civilians" sitting on the picnic table hands folded and one texting, and a man in red T shirt just taking a walk . Unless crime is so every day that it is just another day, ennui . A take down with that many officers would elicit other response than that. 

look how long the officers are standing around in a clump doing nothing. The "guy" close to the dumpster backs away out of the line of action to go behind the dumpster. You have some guns still holstered, others pointed to the ground . 

The dog runs beside the guy, a bad guy with white socks ! When the man slips , which I think surprised him , one leg and foot goes under the dog , the other leg comes down in a scissor motion , which the dog moves out of the way for.

You have an officer to the right of the screen walking , gun not drawn , like an "observer". Instead of going in to apprehend he continues to walk in an arc (better view point) to the right of the screen. 
The officer behind the dumpster stays behind the dumpster. The canine handler jogs toward the dog who is looking at the man on the ground , hackle up the length of his topline. 

When the man is down the canine handler rushes in 1:09 puts the pressure on the dog to repel him from the bad guy , preventing a bite. 
Looks at the bad guy , makes sure he can scramble into the dumpster , pivots , shifts his weight and runs away in hopes of drawing the dog away with him. 

The dumpster is position by the officer behind who rolls it so that the bad guy can get in . Meanwhile the canine handler is getting the dogs attention , pivots and runs away from the action . He keeps looking over his right shoulder to see if the dog is following . Dog hangs around the dumpster . Canine handler and other officer in same frame , man in the stripe pants looking at the canine handler , not at the bad guy , gun pointed to floor . The officer I identified as an observer walks backward in line of direction of the canine handler 

Nobody grabs the guys leg while he is going into the dumpster. Frame 21 shows the guy standing up in the dumpster (clean with no junk in it) he is standing up you can see his upper body right to his mid chest level , but the officers are all looking away from him to the screens left .
The canine handler is not going TO the dog , he is running away and looks to be recalling the dog. Typically dogs are not sent out on pursuit on leash -- quick release snaps . You don't need a leash interfering with movement or getting tangled or grabbed by the "guy".


put down my observations as I kept replaying the youtube , so you have repetition here.

this is not real. Can't be real. Before scathing comments about the dogs -- look and see , first .


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## RocketDog

mycobraracr said:


> She does! Everyone who comes out and thinks they want to do helper work gets to take a bite from her  not anything from a distance of course. *Even at 8 years old she hits like a freight train. *
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is awesome.


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## boomer11

looked real to me. looked like a dog that went for a thigh bite, missed, then didnt know what to do. what do you mean two sends? its the same exact video, one is just slowed down.

if this is fake then thats one BRAVE/STUPID decoy to let an unmuzzled dog working in prey chase him down like that for a bite. i will say its hard to tell what happened. all the cops were backing up when the guy jumped in the dumpster. the handler is also trying to call the dog back so the dog could just have been confused in what he was suppose to do.


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## carmspack

if I don't stop looking at the video I'll have the image imbedded on my eye like a plasma tvs ghost -- 
for the longest time the dog is jogging along the "bad guy" as if it were his dog?

maybe a different camera angle.

there is no attempted thigh bite though .

too strange , and sometimes fact is stranger than fiction .


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## Blitzkrieg1

Looked plenty real to me. I wouldnt feed that dog.


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## carmspack

not the first time you have said this "I wouldnt feed that dog. "
that and the tag line "Such shy animals are in all circumstances an encumbrance to their owner, who must be ashamed of such a dog, and a disgrace to their race. Under no circumstances whatever must they be used for breeding, however noble and striking they may appear"
are you sure you want a GSD ? 

If the video is real the dog was chosen not once but several times inappropriately , breeder, raiser, broker, dept. Not the dog's fault .


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## Gwenhwyfair

This time, I think your eyes are working fine Carmen.  

I'm not a police K9 expert but I was wondering about the handler calling the dog off....it's possible and hard to hear the commands but it sounds like he is also yelling commands at his dog.

If that's the case and the dog is responding to the handler he's doing what he is supposed to.

Carmen wrote: "When the man is down the canine handler rushes in 1:09 puts the pressure on the dog to repel him from the bad guy , preventing a bite. Looks at the bad guy , makes sure he can scramble into the dumpster , pivots , shifts his weight and runs away in hopes of drawing the dog away with him."






carmspack said:


> not the first time you have said this "I wouldnt feed that dog. "
> that and the tag line "Such shy animals are in all circumstances an encumbrance to their owner, who must be ashamed of such a dog, and a disgrace to their race. Under no circumstances whatever must they be used for breeding, however noble and striking they may appear"
> are you sure you want a GSD ?
> 
> If the video is real the dog was chosen not once but several times inappropriately , breeder, raiser, broker, dept. Not the dog's fault .


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## Blitzkrieg1

carmspack said:


> not the first time you have said this "I wouldnt feed that dog. "
> that and the tag line "Such shy animals are in all circumstances an encumbrance to their owner, who must be ashamed of such a dog, and a disgrace to their race. Under no circumstances whatever must they be used for breeding, however noble and striking they may appear"
> are you sure you want a GSD ?
> 
> If the video is real the dog was chosen not once but several times inappropriately , breeder, raiser, broker, dept. Not the dog's fault .


Wouldnt be the first or the last time would it? Never said it was the dog's fault he should probably be someones pet or what do we call it? "Active family companion".. 

The vid was more instructional for the op to help her understand that stories are all well and good but sometimes the reality is quite different. There are bad and good ipo dogs and bad and good service dogs. No black or white.

As for my tag line those are the breed founders words... I like GSDs just fine, what I dont like are nerve bags or driveless slugs..and the excuses that many handler / breeders make for them. Perhaps some think its to much to expect that of a gsd Im not one of them. Strength,hardness, drive and courage..one would think that wouldnt be to much to ask.


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## boomer11

hopefully this is fake too? the dog probably thinking "wheres the sleeve?!"


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## carmspack

that dog should not have certified . 

in the original youtubey , the handler could have gone in and grabbed the leash to make sure he had control.
so much wrong in that video. !

Does every dept in the USA fall under a uniform standard ?
Do they require annual recertification .
"Here" all dogs are purchased by the Dept via municipality/ province/ federal , not by an individual. 
There is a certification course . The dog can wash at any time during the course and after certification . 
That includes a critical eye on handler performance .


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## Gwenhwyfair

According to a thread in the police K9 forum about a year ago, responses therein from Leo members and in speaking with a trainer I know personally who has worked with the police, the answer to your question is no. No uniform standard or certs for police K9s for every dept. in the U.S.




carmspack said:


> that dog should not have certified .
> 
> in the original youtubey , the handler could have gone in and grabbed the leash to make sure he had control.
> so much wrong in that video. !
> 
> Does every dept in the USA fall under a uniform standard ?
> Do they require annual recertification .
> "Here" all dogs are purchased by the Dept via municipality/ province/ federal , not by an individual.
> There is a certification course . The dog can wash at any time during the course and after certification .
> That includes a critical eye on handler performance .


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## David Winners

It varies by state, as far as I know.

David Winners


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## meldy

Related question (I hope!)
I've been creeping Logan haus YouTube page and have noticed
The dogs there are trained with massive distractions. Detection training with random tennis balls all over the place and such. They're exposed to way more at the training stage than I ever thought dogs were.
I'm assuming this sort of training is ideal but it's obviously not going to be available to everyone and, at some point, the dog is going to encounter something it's never seen...
Is the ability to process new things like this the genetic component that's been mentioned here? Or is a new situation one where the dog is likely to rely heavily on the handlers ok and sort of 'back up' 

Typing this from my phone do I'm hoping it makes sense! And my only comparison is horses which are very dependent on their rider...if the rider doesn't care (and the horse has any sort if relationship with it's person) the horse, as a general rule, will ignore whatever might be distracting and/or scary. But then horses are prey, which sort of translates as more submissive (and less thinking) for me than dogs.


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## David Winners

My detection dogs will completely blow me off in the presence of odor. Training under distraction is critical because these dogs work in the real world, not some warehouse or closed down office complex. We search in traffic, crowded rooms, lines of hundreds of vehicles, busy markets full of food and people, border crossings with thousands of pedestrians and push carts.

One of the pics in my avatar shows us searching trucks right out in traffic.

This is heavily genetic through hunt drive, and conditioned through increased distraction during training.

David Winners


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## hunterisgreat

Maybe I'm actually doing something correctly, but I know for a fact if I send Katya for a bite on the IPO field and the helper doesn't present a sleeve, she's biting something... I had a new helper with a pillow behind his back, I was about 20 feet away, and I told him I wanted to mark a behavior and he should get the pillow out front of him. He said no need, he could present fast enough. So I sent Katya (the's Mali fast) and he got it half way in front, and she was already on his thigh thrashing with a mouth full of scratch pants... Zero hesitation, never had a leg bite, never taught a leg bite. I feel like that k9 in the video should be the same.

What I learned from that experience, was a trial sleeve was making her lazy with a full mouth on something like a mans thigh, so we switched to a barrel sleeve for a bite lol. I was annoyed she got no flesh


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## carmspack

meldy I have some dogs working Customs on the international bridges , cars coming and going, people wandering around , all day.

another doing bomb work at political conventions , "Buffy" ,
another doing bomb work public events, parking garages, Toronto "Silva"

another doing bomb work Houston International airport "Simba"

another young dog I was preparing was going to go to work around large livestock - won't say the hows or whys , but drugs being moved along with the MOOS -- so I borrowed , no , I got one of my rural vets "love gloves" which he uses for cow and horse internal exams . 
With glove on I walked up to piles of manure (or where ever) and buried the object . The dog had to work around large animals .
He may still be working - but age would put him close to retirement.

Other dogs work in schools .


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## meldy

carmspack said:


> meldy I have some dogs working Customs on the international bridges , cars coming and going, people wandering around , all day.
> 
> another doing bomb work at political conventions , "Buffy" ,
> another doing bomb work public events, parking garages, Toronto "Silva"
> 
> another doing bomb work Houston International airport "Simba"
> 
> another young dog I was preparing was going to go to work around large livestock - won't say the hows or whys , but drugs being moved along with the MOOS -- so I borrowed , no , I got one of my rural vets "love gloves" which he uses for cow and horse internal exams .
> With glove on I walked up to piles of manure (or where ever) and buried the object . The dog had to work around large animals .
> He may still be working - but age would put him close to retirement.
> 
> Other dogs work in schools .


I understand the end results for detection dogs I was just surprised by the training and the amount of distraction employed  I was more wondering what dogs that didn't have that kind of exposure did. Was the ability to process a bucket of tennis balls tossed at the dog, if they'd never had that experience before, the genetic balance and nerve people talk about here


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## David Winners

meldy said:


> I understand the end results for detection dogs I was just surprised by the training and the amount of distraction employed  I was more wondering what dogs that didn't have that kind of exposure did. Was the ability to process a bucket of tennis balls tossed at the dog, if they'd never had that experience before, the genetic balance and nerve people talk about here


Sharing information on how to trip up a detection dog, or their limitations, on a public forum is not something we should do. It could place lives at risk. I hope you understand.

David Winners


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## meldy

David Winners said:


> Sharing information on how to trip up a detection dog, or their limitations, on a public forum is not something we should do. It could place lives at risk. I hope you understand.
> 
> David Winners


Sorry, wasn't looking to trip anyone up. I was literally just wondering if that inability to distract the dog was a factor of the dogs training or if it's that genetic strength.


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## Merciel

meldy said:


> Sorry, wasn't looking to trip anyone up. I was literally just wondering if that inability to distract the dog was a factor of the dogs training or if it's that genetic strength.


It's both.

It's really just like any other training problem. The better your dog's genetic package is, the less you have to work as a handler, and the higher your maximum attainable achievement is.

An unflappable, environmentally sound dog with strong inherent focus is much MUCH easier to work through distraction proofing, and you don't have to do nearly as much of it.


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## David Winners

meldy said:


> Sorry, wasn't looking to trip anyone up. I was literally just wondering if that inability to distract the dog was a factor of the dogs training or if it's that genetic strength.


I was just throwing in a disclaimer so the thread didn't head down the wrong path. I have seen it happen before, out of no intentional fault of the posters on the thread. No apologies necessary. It's a good question 

David Winners


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## carmspack

It is there or it isn't . You can't train .
see genetic obedience to see Nicholas at the same age working while there are dogs and children running free . 
Or at least I don't train . I expect . 

see prey monkeys for Kaden 1 and 2 . Then an hour later we are in the "barn" which is a set up area for search . The 10 week old dog still is diligent in working . No support given , and he doesn't look for it . Gus's owner is doing the video shoot. We did a ton of other stuff before this . By all rights the dog should be flagging . We went a bit far , took advantage of having Saphire there to take the pictures so that I could have a record of it before he left my hands.

I try to be as creative as I can .

You want to see the same focus or connection to task and handler in herding also. 

there is a youtube that I am looking for that shows a dog , not a gsd, but one of the "older" types , independently herding a small flock of sheep along an urban street with pedestrians and moving vehicles. They are doing "eco-green" lawnmowing with sheep from park to park , part of land management. 
will share when I find it.


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## carmspack

this needs to be added to the above


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## Blitzkrieg1

In IPO we use distraction to proof the dog on certain behaviors.

Example: Dog has to work obedience with trial sleeves and tugs lying around. Focus on handler = reward, focus on decoy object = correction.

Dogs that are equipment focused in protection: Decoy drops a sleeve or bite wedge on the ground then does a half circle around the dog. Usually the dog will still be focused on the dropped item. Decoy will aggress towards the dogs flank sometimes use the stick. When the dog turn and focusses on the decoy he gets a bite.

Many ways to use competing motivators to build focus on the handler and the task.


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## carmspack

blitzkrieg that is an obedience exercise -- 

you can't have a dog distracted by the family pet dog in a car while doing a customs sweep --- you can't have a dog distracted when the dog has to work in an alley to make apprehension or detection when you have people working in their garages , coming and going , dogs barking , tasty garbage out .

this goes for working PD service dogs, this goes for certified assistance , therapy and Guide dogs, and for personal protection. 

You would be correcting/ rewarding all day long . 

two very different things , with very different repercussions.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I disagree Carmen, that is the foundation for creating reliable focus and obedience. You intorduce distractions in training so the dog gets used to remaining task oriented despite high value competing motivators.

You are talking about the end result, I am talking about the training process. The training process is not complete until you no longer need to correct the dog and it is remaining reliably task oriented.

You see Mike working his detection pups and using food and balls (high value objects) to try and get the dog off task. Then he rewards the dog for ignoring those stimuli and remaining on task. In real life those dogs will deal with the distractors you mentioned however for the training process those objects are used. 
Sure you can use other distractors and many do, I was just using those objects as a basic example. Some people will use multiple decoys, groups of moving people or other dogs but generally starting with high value objects is easiest and gets the same message across.


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## carmspack

no -- that is an obedience exercise 

the dog works with the focus on the task . 
using the SAR dog who could go crittering, but doesn't.

It always works out better when you choose the dog that has it naturally .

You ARE talking about a training process . Work is not obedience though . In work , and even in good obedience you don't keep closing in on the dogs performance or activity , making the range of accepted behaviours more narrow or confined.

where did young Nicholas get that "training"


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## David Winners

I train dogs to be obedient to odor. I start by using light leash pressure on a harness, pulling directly away from the hide while the dog is in final response. I gradually add more and more pressure until I can drag the dog off the hide and it will not loose focus, returning to the hide immediately when released. Then: go through the same process with verbal commands, gently enticing the dog away with my voice at first, building to strong directional commands that the dog will disobey to stay on source.

This I will train.

Working through crowds, food, animals, traffic, feces, wind, rain, whatever, is work ethic. The dog does become more accustomed to working under distraction through experience, but it is either there or not IME.

An example would be Marshall. He's a little lab, super social, goofy with people, loves attention and food. He's always the center of attention. He will say hello to each and every person in a group before a demo search while I give a brief. 

I was doing a search with him down a section of road that leads to a chow hall. I wasn't paying attention to the time when I set the problem up. No sooner had we started the venue and scores of people started walking down the road from the chow hall carrying Styrofoam to-go containers full of food. 

Marshall was working off leash about 75 meters in front of me, all on his own without direction. People didn't know he was working. They were whistling, snapping their fingers, calling to him and offering bits of their dinner to him. He was completely oblivious to the people. He was calmly zooming past them, weaving through their feet, working his pattern. The search took about half an hour, maybe 45 minutes. Think PSA for a detection dog, without commands from the handler.

You can't teach that IMO, and I didn't. We had never worked anything remotely similar before. He's just got "it."

As soon as the search was over, he was back to goof ball, clowning around and loving on everybody in sight.



David Winners


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## gsdsar

David Winners said:


> I was doing a search with him down a section of road that leads to a chow hall. I wasn't paying attention to the time when I set the problem up. No sooner had we started the venue and scores of people started walking down the road from the chow hall carrying Styrofoam to-go containers full of food.
> 
> Marshall was working off leash about 75 meters in front of me, all on his own without direction. People didn't know he was working. They were whistling, snapping their fingers, calling to him and offering bits of their dinner to him. He was completely oblivious to the people. He was calmly zooming past them, weaving through their feet, working his pattern. The search took about half an hour, maybe 45 minutes. Think PSA for a detection dog, without commands from the handler.
> 
> You can't teach that IMO, and I didn't. We had never worked anything remotely similar before. He's just got "it."
> 
> David Winners




Sounds like my Lab. Who vibrates when food is around. Unless she is working. When searching she will jump over an entire pizza and never look at it. 


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## Blitzkrieg1

So why does a guy like Mike and numerous others bother with training at all? Why bother adding progressive distractions to their training? The dog just has to have it right?

You referring to puppy hunting around for a tug? What does that prove?




carmspack said:


> no -- that is an obedience exercise
> 
> the dog works with the focus on the task .
> using the SAR dog who could go crittering, but doesn't.
> 
> It always works out better when you choose the dog that has it naturally .
> 
> You ARE talking about a training process . Work is not obedience though . In work , and even in good obedience you don't keep closing in on the dogs performance or activity , making the range of accepted behaviours more narrow or confined.
> 
> where did young Nicholas get that "training"


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## Jack's Dad

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> So why does a guy like Mike and numerous others bother with training at all? Why bother adding progressive distractions to their training? The dog just has to have it right?
> 
> You referring to puppy hunting around for a tug? What does that prove?



To me it's sort of like people who are naturally athletic or musically inclined.

They may have "it" natural talent but they still need education and training, along with repetition.

You can't put something in that's not there but can train around it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Jack's Dad said:


> To me it's sort of like people who are naturally athletic or musically inclined.
> 
> They may have "it" natural talent but they still need education and training, along with repetition.
> 
> You can't put something in that's not there but can train around it.


 
I never said you could. Obviously the dog requires the right drives. You start with the right dog, train the dog and proof the dog before the dog starts working in the real world or even the sport field.

The OP was asking about distractors I was giving her examples of how they are trained.

Plenty of SAR dogs try crittering and have to be proofed of the distraction of bunnies or deer..


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## gsdsar

I believe in adding in distraction from the start. If things like balls, food, people, cars, are always part if the picture, then proofing is minimized. The dog learns that the only time he gets a reward is when he works and does what you want. The "distractions" become a regular part of the picture. 

If you watch any if the Randy Hare stuff, this is his theory as well. He uses the scent boxes. One has the odor you are training for, one is empty, one has balls, one has food, and so on. The dog is allowed to snif and smell, but gets no play until they "notice" the scent you are training on. Then the toy is presented and the play commenses. They learn quickly that "dead" scents bring nothing. 

I like that theory. I modify it for my needs, but life and the world are full of "distractions" so might as well just make them part of training from the get go. 


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## carmspack

yes, and then, still some of that dedication to task is just there , part of the herding dogs inner quality .

here is an example of major distraction , in a trial situation, behaviour not taught . Inger Olavson who I mentioned probably in the genetic obedience thread , or herding lines thread , has some of her dogs in Sumo and sister Journey , and son Gus pedigrees.

Inger and her "club" Sue Barwig, Johannes Grewe , Carbajal , Nope, Gary Patterson and wife Carol and other great "olde" dog sports people .

One of her dogs Bob vom hause an der Schiene is on my pedigrees , as is another line under her Olympus kennel .

Bob was a Dingo Gero son . Dingo Gero is used as an ideal for balanced movement . 

I take this from Schutzhund USA interview March 2011 ,

Inger had qualified with her dog Bob (call name Dingo son of Dingo Gero) for the 1992 WUSV Weltmeistershaft in Linz Austria. There on the track , first article , dog downed and waiting for her to walk up to him, a rabbit bolts out of the grass and went right over the dogs front leg . The dog never budged, and Inger breathed a sigh of relief. Everyone saw it . 

That is what I meant in the early socialization comment about the world coming at you --- so many things to challenge us that you have no control over . 

That dog had not been conditioned to such an event . 

A year later in trials in Nijmegen Holland same dog , tracking portion again, some challenge. The dog stepped on an electrical wire which had dropped onto the road crossing . The wire was still hot and the dog shrieked, his paw burnt. He was distracted a bit with a stick . The judge noted this , dog brought to starting point and the dog continued . He was a bit dazed -- scored 80 points . Inger was enormously proud , what he did not get in points he more than made up for in heart . 

Bob vom Haus an der Schiene

some things you can not teach


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## misslesleedavis1

I would love to get Tyson involved in that sort of sport, but ive been told he does not have what it takes now by many people that know what they are talking about. So..im going to do agility with him.

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