# What titles are 'acceptable' for breeding?



## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

Does anyone here breed dogs that are titled in things other than conformation or schutzhund? I'm curious if it's considered good practice to breed dogs that are titles in tracking, herding, obedience, etc? 

Assume the dog has passed all other criteria for breeding.

If you don't believe it's acceptable, why not? 

Just curious =)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My breeder has a female who is not titled in schutzhund but titled in tracking and obedience. She has been bred once (not my pups mother). I think as long as they are working the dog, the dog is performing they way they should and they are doing all of the necessary things before breeding (certs, etc.) then it is acceptable.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

I think it's fine if the breeder has titles in other venues besides showmanship and schutzhund. Depends on what the breeder is breeding for too, ie if they are working dogs, agility dogs, showmanship dogs, obedience dogs, herding dogs, etc. As long as a breeder has all the health screenings before hand, I think it's fine to just have titles in any venue, at least they show their dogs can work no matter what the venue.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

There is no law or rules about it in the US, and what's acceptable to some is totally inadequate to others.
Generally, the more the merrier, as any and all indicate some discipline and effort in the part of the both
the breeder and the dog to accomplish something. 

Obviously, the goals you have for a pup beforehand will influence your decision as to what titles and
to what levels will increase your odds of future success before you place your bet and roll the dice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me it would depend on whether I trust the breeder and/or have enough recommendations from other experienced people to consider a pup from untitled parents. I only really care about titles insofar as if the breeder has gone through the process, I know they really *know* about their dog. For example, if a breeder tells me their dog has high drive and is mentally sound but has never put any pressure on the dog to test these things, I'm not inclined to believe them. There are breeders who know how to train, work, and test their dogs and in that case, the title is incidental. But, I think these great breeders are in the minority because so many haven't got a clue and/or don't train their own dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

IMO, titles and breeding are no longer exclusive. One requires no knowledge of the breed and the other necessitates extensive knowledge of the breed. Titles for me indicate the dogs luck to be in a place where it can be trained. There are so many undeserving dogs that are titled and so many titles that are undeserving for breeding, and lastly so many excellent trainers that can disguise a dog through titles, that I just don't think one has anything to do with the other.JMO


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)




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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't care if the dogs have titles, if I like them. I don't think it is a requirement to be a good or responsible breeder, but that's just my opinion. If you KNOW your dogs, that's what counts. Also, I agree a lot of titles are BS. Many champions are pathetic examples of their breed (not just in GSDs) and many fine dogs never finish, for example.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:If you KNOW your dogs, that's what counts.


That's the problem. Too many people are 'kennel blind'. They see their dog in it's every day surroundings and say "He's wonderful!".

Take that same dog (let's say a GSD) out of his comfort zone and put some pressure on him and THEN see what happens.

As has been said, you can take a so-so dog and train it to pass the high titles. That doesn't mean the dog is breed-worthy.

BUT, I as a purchaser, want something other than the BREEDERS word that their dog is breed worthy.

To me, a good test would be to take the dog away from the owner, to a place it's never been before, with people it's never met before and run it through a temperament test. And the tests would never be the same - that way people cannot "train" their dogs for them (I know people who have done that).

It also comes down to what I want the dog FOR. If I want to compete in agility at national levels I'm going to be looking for dogs that have PROVEN they can do agility. That they have the physical and mental means to compete at high levels. It won't guarantee me a pup that is good but it stacks the deck in my favor.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeFor me it would depend on whether I trust the breeder and/or have enough recommendations from other experienced people to consider a pup from untitled parents. I only really care about titles insofar as if the breeder has gone through the process, I know they really *know* about their dog. For example, if a breeder tells me their dog has high drive and is mentally sound but has never put any pressure on the dog to test these things, I'm not inclined to believe them. There are breeders who know how to train, work, and test their dogs and in that case, the title is incidental. But, I think these great breeders are in the minority because so many haven't got a clue and/or don't train their own dogs.


Well said. I agree.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, Lauri, I think along with what you are saying is that when the breeder is recommended by other breeders and sport/work people. I was looking into a working line litter and several other working breeders (who I have very good reason to trust) recommended this person and gave their OK. When I did contact this person, they answered my questions thoroughly and honestly, without ever even mentioning the names of dogs or trying to sell a puppy. When I am ready to get another working line dog, I will definitely have this kennel on my short list, even assuming that at that point they might have different dogs with different titles. I need a reason to trust the breeder before I even consider the dogs and the titles. When I buy a dog, I expect the breeder to sell me the best dog for me, so I don't care as much about which dogs the puppy comes from and what titles they have.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

I'll agree with that. 

I know what I want in a dog, so for the most part, I think I can find it. It may be a little easier to find it if the breeder titles dogs, because as you mention I could then find a dog with a higher chance of doing well in, say, agility.

My puppy has an adult sibling doing the work I want mine to do, and I could clearly see that his parents had the temperament and over all appearance that I both need and find appealing. In this case, titles were not necessary. 

Basically, I don't think titles are REQUIRED to be a good breeder or to find a nice puppy, but they can absolutely be beneficial and useful!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

What I have found, is that the title is not as important as the handler/owner getting out there and experiencing things. 

You may think your dog is high-drive.... until you actually meet a high-drive dog. You think your dog has flashy obedience, until you see some REALLY flashy, natural obedience. You don’t understand the ease of a natural tracker… until you work one.

Unfortunately, IMO, quite often German Shepherds seem to be here for the sport of Schutzhund rather than Schutzhund being for the dog.

On another forum recently, someone who is a firm believer in "only schutzhund titled, show rated dogs should be bred" stated that tracking was just an obedience exercise. That is the type of thought that leads to the destruction of a breed-- losing focus of the NATURAL strengths a dog possesses.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

In my opinion it is not the title that is important. It is simply a graduation certificate. The important part is the training. Training in any venue can tell you a lot about your dog -- what comes easy for him, what is hard. How does he cope with the difficult tasks? Does he stress out, shut down, panic? Does he try harder to figure out what you want? These are temperament traits that can only be seen with the pressure of training at an advanced level.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1
> 
> 
> On another forum recently, someone who is a firm believer in "only schutzhund titled, show rated dogs should be bred" stated that tracking was just an obedience exercise.


IMO, if they are talking about SchH tracking, they are CORRECT.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Tracy, What are your thoughts on that?

For me, that is where dogs for the sport vs. sport for the dogs comes in. Tracking should NOT be an obedience exercise. It should be a talent.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

The reason I say that is that the dog has to get from point "A" (the start), to point B (the finish) a certain way. If the dog doesn't do it exactly right,(with it's nose plastered to the ground.) points are taken off and or the dog fails. IMO, as long as the dog leaves the start, finds the articles and the finish, it really shouldn't matter HOW they go about it. (If all that were being cosidered is the natural ability of the dog.)

Nose plastered to the gound the whole time is NOT how dogs "naturally" track. They generally use a combo of sniffing the ground AND air. (And often when they are sniffing the "gound" they don't have their noses burried in the grass.)

In SchH the dogs are TRAINED to sniff EACH footstep, and are not to air scent. If you use enough food, and take enough time, you can get even a dog that has no natural "want to" to do that.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to "diss" SchH tracking. It is just my feeling that it is about more than just the dogs "natural ability". Obedience is MORE important than the "end result".


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1
> ...


I disagree. While that is the case sometimes, it is not always the case. Nor do I think it was ever intended to be the case, despite what some have turned it into. 

Like all things, it depends on the dog and it's training. Tracking, particularly at the higher levels, most certainly involves scenting ability and scent discrimination.

Part of the benefit of this type of tracking from an evaluating the dog standpoint is that it IS such an unnatural form of tracking compared to what a dog would do naturally, or what other forms of tracking (trailing/air scenting) used in more pracitical real life endeavors might entail. Here we are asking a dog to take his natural talent, and rather than use it as he would be inclined to do on his own, mold and form his use of his scenting abilities and natural tracking/hunting instincts in an UNnatural way because that is what his handler asks of him. Can he in fact work against his own instincts (to circle, air scent, raise his head, bolt to the end) because that is what we want? And can he do it while maintaining drive, intensity, and concentration all while working independently and solving problems on his own, while performing a very methodical, detailed task with no influence or guidance from the handler.

People bash SchH tracking because it's not "real". Granted, a one legged fugative could outrun a SchH dog tracking him. But that isn't the point. It tests the dog's ability to track and perform a scenting task, but the form in which it does so also tests other things that are important from the standpoint of uncovering the inner workings of the dog's temperament.

Of course the disadvantage to such stylized tracking is that it indeed can be taught more as an obedience exercise than anything else. Moreso as time has gone on and the judging in tracking, like protection, has gotten more nitpicky about finer, almost insignificant details, and less about the overall picture and what the dog is doing and why he is doing it. But it doesn't have to be taught that way, nor is that how it was intended to be IMO.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Chris,

I didn't mean to imply that ( an "obedience" exercise".) was the origional point of SchH tracking. Only that that is what it has become.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with all the comments here, and agree with Tracy that SchH tracking is an OB excercise, as opposed to the AKC style tracking. 

But again, earning a SchH title, or a tracking title is all about what the PROCESS of getting to the title tells you about your dog. 

How much effort did you have to put in to get your dog to track - how biddable is she? how hard is she trying to understand what you want, what are her problem-solving skills? her willingness to stick to a hard and difficult track - how much confidence does your dog show when faced with a challenge - even though Schutzhund tracking is scored and the dog needs to display a certain style of work, they still have to understand tracking, and show a willingness and enthusiasm in their work. Learning more about your dog and what makes her tick, finding out her strenghts and weaknesses is the real value of the process that brings you through the training and the titling. 

AKC style tracking is more natural, and the tracks are more difficult - and will more readily bring to light the natural instinctive trackers over the casual week-end "what's in it for me" trackers (like my Keeta, LOL). But that does not mean that SchH style tracking does not highlight the natural instinctive trackers, but the trainer/handler needs to be able to understand and read their dog throughout. 

And I do Schutzhund Tracking with Keeta, and have earned High in Trial Tracking scores, but through the process I have really seen her abilities and weaknesses, and I honestly doubt that she would succeed in AKC style tracking, and her success has more to do with her willingness to please me and my training skills (as modest as they are). 

So if I had an ego, I could say that she could be bred BECAUSE her high score is proof of breedworthiness, but with an understanding of the process of titling, I can also make the decision to not breed her, because I know that despite her high score, she is NOT a natural, instinctive tracker, and lacks the desire and work ethic to do difficult tracks like what police dogs would be called upon to do. 

So in keeping with the thoughts expressed through the thread, it is not the title in itself that indicates breedworthiness, but the knowledge that the training for the title brings to the breeder about the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I am very new to SchH even newer to tracking since I didn't start right away and admittedly find it sometimes boring, but even I can see the difference between a natural tracker, a halfass tracker, and a tracker that was trained using pressure. Would I be disappointed if SchH was only ob and protection? Probably not, but Nikon LOVES tracking and has really taken to it so I do it for him. We had a bit of a rough start but it turned out that he was always on the right track (hehe) and I was all stressed over nothing, because I'd never done it before. I like keep up with tracking Nikon because with my other dog I lost the ability to do certain things after doing so much obedience (tracking, herding, distance handling in agility...). Our umbilical cord is too short, she won't work out ahead of me (literally) and isn't as independent. I love seeing Nikon walk up to the track and just GO becuase he knows what to do not because I'm forcing him or having to constantly correct/reward along the way, but because he just loves to track and has only ever been shown the *right* way.

I don't really care whether it's practical or not because we are not a SAR team and he's not a police K9.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Great post Lucia.









Siren is what I would call a "natural tracker". (Either "nose to the ground" OR if not allowed, she is air scenting 24/7) But IMO she isn't very "biddable". I tried for a while to get her to be slower and more methodical. But as of yet I have found NOTHING that will slow her down. (She wants to "run" a track like she is in the Ididarod!) She has what I would call good food drive, (the name "Hoover" comes to mind.) and pretty good "toy drive" but not "over the top". BUT when she is on a track there is NOTHING that is more important to her than running the track. There is no food invented that intrests her on a track. She has NO intrest in a "reward" for a "job well done". She would much rather keep tracking than get rewarded. It's like she "doesn't have TIME" for silly things like "rewards". She MUST keep tracking.

I have had scent HOUNDS that weren't as "scent" motivaed as she is. (It is actually a REAL pain in the rear!)

I know a LOT of it is "natural" as she has several siblings (both litter mates and 1/2 siblings.) that are either in training for SAR, OR are in training for AKC or SchH tracking. But I wonder how much of her "fixation" on her nose is due to the fact that her litter was imprinted on cadaver scent from "tiny babyhood". (Starting not too long after birth.)

This is pretty much what I see 24/7. (Either "nose to the "ground",



















Or "Air scenting".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is only one title that I would buy a dog with only the title as a reference, and that is KNPV title. Having said that, I will say that I can be influenced more by the LEVEL of the competition. Nationals, Worlds, LGA, National Herding, these events a high percent of the time have dogs that have strong basic genetics to breed from. (Not 100 precent, but very very often).


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1There is only one title that I would buy a dog with only the title as a reference, and that is KNPV title.


Clifton,

Care to explain your reasons? This is NOT a "challenge" or arguement.







Many folks know NOTHING of KNPV. What better place to learn.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

No problem.....As everybody knows I put temperament as the most important aspect of the breed with physical health second. KNPV is a trial in holland that is used by Dutch Royal Police to assess suitability for policework. It is a very demanding trial in which few German Shepherds are able to excel in anymore. I have never seen a KNPV titled dog that had weak nerves. Have seen some that were too strong for pet handlers, but IF I were to buy a dog ONLY based on titles, this is the one title that I would not worry about the nerve strength of the dog which is a must starting foundation for me. Many many of the sport workinglines do not do well in KNPV. Not saying that all good shepherds have to be able to pass KNPV, just saying for me to buy a dog sight unseen and only based on title it would be this title. Very very demanding title that takes some dogs years,(usually 2 years) to accomplish with a very good dog. The physical requirements to pass this trial necessitate that the dog must have good working structure and good health. It will weed out dogs with either poor mental or physical health or incorrect structure...this is how I think the selection process should be based. Not for everyone I know, but then I don't worry about being "lucky" with nerve strength with my dogs. That's my answer to the OP question.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

KNPV Championships 2007 Highlights


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks Barb, I only wish they had showed more of the obedience exercises, so people could have an idea how well trained these dogs are in obedience as well as protection. Many people will look at this type of trial and think this is abuse or hard on the dog, well to my way of thinking this is what the dog was created to be able to do. The KNPV is like the marine training for the military, standards are higher and more rigorous, but these dogs are regular members of society and live in families and homes just like other dogs. the standards are higher and the dog's need for genetic strength is vital. you still have the Army and Air Force, and even the Coast Guard for the ones who can't reach this level, but all German Shepherds should be able to pass "basic training"(a concept), to be able to say they are working dogs. If you breed dogs that are not capable of serving and PROTECTING, then you help the breed to continue to diminish.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

maybe the handlers in the Seiger video should be watching this one?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Other than AKC, there are 4 orgs that you can work and title your dogs in. For someone looking to do that type of work, there are more than enough choices. SCH USA, WDA. DVG and SDA.

It takes work, but the results are worth it. 

No excuse - just DO IT!!! and have fun!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:Other than AKC, there are 4 orgs that you can work and title your dogs in. For someone looking to do that type of work, there are more than enough choices. SCH USA, WDA. DVG and SDA.
> 
> No excuse - just DO IT!!! and have fun!


Exactly!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And then there are the agility, tracking, OB, herding, etc available.

Or the TR and OB titles in SCH USA.

That is why it surprises me when people state there is nothing available and/or no clubs and that is why they are not working dogs. It is a lot of time and effort. Even with dogs already titled.

I envy those on the east and west coasts with all the availbility with various clubs, trainers and people out there.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think for me, the bigger picture is.. just because a dog has a title, doesn't always mean they are worthy of breeding.. 

I would also like to see the dog in training and how he/she responds, what training methods, how does the dog work in different places, how does he/she handle pressure, etc..


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgI think for me, the bigger picture is.. just because a dog has a title, doesn't always mean they are worthy of breeding..












And to ME, just because a dog doesn't have a "title", doesn't necessarily mean it ISN'T worthy of breeding. (I am thinking of dogs that are in fields like Police K9s for example. And of course all of them defiantely aren't "worthy" of bereeding either just because they are "police dogs". )


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The reason that I like to see the title – how does the dog react under having to do all 3 phases? And was it done under different circumstances? Strong nerve dog on home field, home helper can be the opposite on a strange field, different helper and technique.

Working during training is just that – training. 

It is interesting. When the show people talk about the working ability of their dogs and it is based on their dog doing a short long bite on a show field, people jump in and protest (me included). 

But, the same needs to apply to all dogs, not just show, but working. How can one state that a dog has abilities unless it is tested and proven under a set criteria?

The working title itself is a reflection of the training and competing - this is how you learn and evaluate the abilities and temperament of your dog. There are many dogs that are bred that are titled and sold - but the question is how did they get there?

And yes, there are dogs that it is questionable how they were able to be titled, but...

Police canines are not “titled” per se, but they are certified. Again, tested under a set criteria.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:The working title itself is a reflection of the training and competing - this is how you learn and evaluate the abilities and temperament of your dog.


Oh I agree 100%!! 

Going through the whole process has taught me a lot about my own dogs...


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Folks who haven't done the work to get a title can't know what one means. Dogs that haven't done the work to get a title can't either.

Not knowing, it's just alphabet soup, and that's true whether it's a show title, a herding title, a working title, an agility title, and obedience title. True appreciation of what any title means is best reached by doing the work to obtain one. 

So again, the more the merrier. A CGC is better than nothing. A list
is a multiplier of effort and stamina of both the dog and the handler.

Just my $.02


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Probably something else that should be mentioned (or maybe it was, and I missed it) is that there are also persons out there that have limited knowledge of German Shepherds other than "male + female = puppies" that go and buy "ready-made titled dogs." It doesn't matter where the dogs come from as long as it has a title. 

These "breeders" don't know anything about the titles themselves, only that, with titles, they can tack on an extra zero to the puppies' price tag or the stud's fee. 

A dog that I had ("Ursel") had a dark past after having been purchased by a "prettier" puppy mill in Missouri that started pumping out puppies and incorrectly stating she won at all of these shows when, in fact, she did not. Throw the word "Import" and "Titled" on some dogs, and less-than-stellar breeders see that as $ and $$.


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