# What do you all think?



## Grendel602 (3 mo ago)

AKC registered, chipped, first set of shots and last of the litter available. Local breeder is asking $800.

Mom is the White Shepherd and Dad is the long coat.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

The minimum requirements I like to look at are:
1. Health tests: hips, elbow and dm 
2. Some sort of title for the dogs (parents), proof that they do something with their dogs instead of just owning them and throwing them together. Not just like performance/OB/show titles but also if they're working dogs. 
3. Age appropriate treatments for the pup: worming, vaccinations 
4. Provides paperwork for the dogs (AKC only)

This list is my personal 'bare minimum'. If they cannot fulfill all 4 of these requirements I skip over them immediately. Looks like 1 and 2 are missing from your post, maybe they have it for their dogs? I find that some people try to skirt this topic by saying "my dogs run all day! very healthy!" when in reality dogs with HD can do all that. I would pass on these folks unless I saw 1 and 2 fulfilled.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I think this breeder is breeding for 'rare' colours. Mom is white, and the pup looks like it may be a blue. Breeders who do this are usually NOT ethical, as these colours are not recognized by any of the German shepherd clubs. They prey on naïve people who are taken in by them claiming the colours are 'rare'.

Edit: Dad has faded pigment, and no mask, both of which are faults. An experienced, ethical breeder would not use him as a stud.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Health tested parents with a Pedigree that can be researched is important. This will allow you to stack the odds in favor of not ending up with a pup that has genetic health or temperment issues.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

BYB. You may get lucky and get a nice companion or you may end up with behavioral and/or health issues. If the later happens you'll be on your own with no support from the greeder. Their goal is making easy money on a litter of pups not providing life long support for the litter, once money is exchanged most cut ties if an issue pops up. 

If your heart is set at the very least meet and interact with the parents. If they are nervous, aggressive, or the greeder won't let you meet them walk away.


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## WVNed (4 mo ago)

My recent experience
This was Bear






















He recently passed just before his 6th birthday. He had hip dysplasia, maybe degenerative neuropathy and died from hemangiosarcoma just before he was 6 year old. He was given to us by a friend. We did all we could for him and had him from Columbus Ohio to Blacksburg and Roanoke Virginia trying to save him. 

This is Paddy






















He has parents that I can look up on pedigreedatabase.com and have been tested for genetic issues. He cost $4000. That is a great deal less than what we spent on Bear to try and save his life.

Getting a puppy is always going to be a matter of placing your money and taking your chances. Yes, pups from breeders come with health guarantees frequently. They do not cover your heart getting run over by a truck because your best friend is dying or hopelessly impaired and you can do nothing. Usually you get anther pup from the breeder to satisfy the guarantee. Getting another pup from someone that breeds dogs with genetic issues is doing the same thing over hoping for different results. 

If you want a GSD pay to get a good one from documented parents or go find a mix that looks close enough to make you happy. Those are the only ways to avoid the health issues as best you can.

Every vet we saw with bear told us this is what always happens with GSDs they see. They are such exceptional friends though, you get hooked right in the heart. We did not hesitate to get another. 

And that's all I have to say about that


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

Just like horses, the cheapest part of a dog is the PURCHASE price! I've had quite a few dogs, some I've found on the road, and some rehomes I've accepted, 'free dogs'. I spent thousands on 'free' dogs when medical issues cropped up..........seizures, auto immune that attacked the brain and spinal cord, esophageal paralysis (which after surgery, he surprised the UC Davis vet and lived happily for 3 more years), heart issues. If the 'breeders' haven't done any evaluation of their breeding dogs for Hip Dysplasia, Degenerative Myelopathy, or any other medical issues that can be tested for, DON'T DO IT!!


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## Grendel602 (3 mo ago)

Isn't that really just a reverse mask on the sire.


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## Grendel602 (3 mo ago)




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## Grendel602 (3 mo ago)

CASKEYS K9S GARYS WINCHESTER’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - CASKEYS K9S GARYS WINCHESTER wants to share his results with you!




my.embarkvet.com


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## WVNed (4 mo ago)

Here a pet quality GSD from a BYB will cost $200-400 dollars.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

a breeder using the term "fixed' to describe neutering would send me running. If you want a mistake go to the nearest shelter and adopt, they have a large supply.
and anyone can buy those blank forms on Amazon. The last thing you want is DM, it's a horrible disease for the dog to go into and for the helpless owner to watch. BTDT. RIP sweet Ellie.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

It also seems to me that this breeder is crossing types of GSD's. Does he have a reason for doing that? The male looks as though he might be WGSL and the female is definitely not. I'm not sure what that white dog might be considered. 

But these are not what would be considered well bred dogs, at least not in my opinion. Personally I would look elsewhere, especially with the others' comments here.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

This seller is just mating these two to make money. What kind of health testing was done on the parents? I would be interested in seeing certification for being DM free. You don't want to deal with that because it's heartbreaking to watch your dog go through this.


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## Grendel602 (3 mo ago)

Sire was genetically tested. Not a carrier of DM and both parents have to be carriers.









CASKEYS K9S GARYS WINCHESTER’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - CASKEYS K9S GARYS WINCHESTER wants to share his results with you!




embk.me


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

@Grendel602 This is a classic backyard breeder. Parents were there, so they were bred. Now this person is using every claim in the book to convince you to hand over 800$ for 50$ puppies. Embark, a google-generated contract, cute puppy pictures, vet shots, cute parent pictures, terms like “family raised” “purebred” and “papered”, etc. Both dogs are out of standard and untested (temperament testing). They should not have been bred and I would never recommend buying from them. 

If you want a puppy and you don’t care about titles or standards then find one from the shelter. If you want a quality bred puppy who is bred to standard, find a reputable breeder. Either way you will find a majority of people here will tell you to skip this puppy and breeder. I want to add a plea not to buy the puppy to “rescue” it. Giving any money to this person will encourage her to repeat the breeding again. And any claims that this was an accident or a one time thing are likely a lie.

If you continue to argue for reasons why this breeder is okay to buy from, I shall assume you’ve made up your mind and are trying to quell a guilty conscious.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Please stick to the reasons you would say yay or nay to the puppy. It's just fantasy and speculation to assume anything about the breeder or the OP.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

It’s great that they have an Embark test done! That fulfills the whole DM thing. The health tests also involve hips and elbow. This requires them to take a proper x ray and sent of OFA or the SV(?). The Embark test does not diagnose elbows or hips.


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## Wunderwhy6 (Nov 29, 2020)

You are correct I am sorry. My comment assumed too much and was unnecessarily harsh.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

I think you should save your money and get a well bred pup from a reputable breeder.


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## Atlas Shrugged (5 mo ago)

I agree and the father whilst a beautiful dog, our breeder had one exactly the same colouring in the face and the eyes and he was selling to a family because he could not breed from him, not up to breeding standard.

Atleast getting from a good breeder often means you get a good temperament. We made the mistake of getting our first boy from a BYB, he had everything wrong with him, hip dysplasia, worms when we brought him home, skin issues and many termperment issues but we later looked at it that WE SAVED HIM!. We think he knew it too as he ws the most loyal boy to us but he was hard work.

In our experience getting from a breeder is like getting a puppy with a blank slate, there should be no issues, lots of confidence and puppy happy all the time.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

I found the breeder's FB page and found a post that they have dual sired litters? That's so wrong. How can you tell who the true sire is when you register the dog? Reputable breeders don't do this. If you go through the page, you will see that the owners are getting out of the GS breeding business too. I would pass on the puppy even though he is cute. The owners are not breeding to the standard, if you go through the page and see what they have been producing and they don't look like GS.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The basics I look for in any breeder are certified hips, certified elbows, dm status, working ability proven in some venue. You can ask the breeder for that information. There’s nothing you’ve shown here that would lead me to buy from nor recommend this breeder. Understand what I said above is simply the basics. There’s a lot more I look at and those things are far from a yes.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

DHau said:


> I found the breeder's FB page and found a post that they have dual sired litters? That's so wrong. How can you tell who the true sire is when you register the dog? Reputable breeders don't do this.


This part of your statement is incorrect. Reputable breeders do have dual sired litters all the time for a variety of reasons. There’s an AKC registration process for dual sired litters. All puppies have to be DNA tested.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I would not buy a puppy from this breeder or this litter.


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## SitUbuSit (Aug 1, 2011)

I would pass. Too many red flags that others have mentioned.

It doesn’t matter how cute the puppy is (and he is very very cute), they basically start doubling in size in a matter of weeks, and the last thing you want is a full grown adolescent or adult GSD with health or temperament issues.

I know others have mentioned hips being an obvious concern, but temperament to me is just as important. If a breeder is just breeding nonstandard color shepherds that he has around, I can guarantee he’s not considering temperament of the litter. He can say “mom and dad are both friendly nice dogs!” But that doesn’t mean that the puppies will be. An ethical breeder will do the work of researching how various “lines” in prior generations of the parents will cross and produce puppies of a desired temperament. Unless I missed it in a prior post, I don’t see pedigrees or mentions of line breeding.

So it’s basically a roll of the dice at this point. Cute puppy might be a fine and healthy and stable dog. But if it were me, I’d contact my local GSD rescue before supporting this BYB.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

I saw the breeder's website. It looks like they're trying to do the right thing, maybe in the wrong order. Two of their dogs got their OFA stuff done but not the entire breeding stock. 

One weird thing I saw was that some of their dog's pedigrees are incomplete? On PDB some of the dogs don't have grandparents listed and it is unknown past that. I'm not sure what the requirements are for posting on PDB but that seems really strange. 

For this level of "work", you can realistically get a cheaper pup online, not that I'm encouraging it. OP I would ask for the OFA number for both the dam and sire. Also triple check that the dam and sire have AKC papers. Good luck!


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

Reputable breeders do dual sired litters. Would I get this pup no It’s not bred to standard You are supporting a breeder who is not breeding to standard and sadly that is not a well bred pup


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Grendel602 said:


> AKC registered, chipped, first set of shots and last of the litter available. Local breeder is asking $800.
> 
> Mom is the White Shepherd and Dad is the long coat.
> 
> ...





Buckelke said:


> a breeder using the term "fixed' to describe neutering would send me running. If you want a mistake go to the nearest shelter and adopt, they have a large supply.
> and anyone can buy those blank forms on Amazon. The last thing you want is DM, it's a horrible disease for the dog to go into and for the helpless owner to watch. BTDT. RIP sweet Ellie.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

You are correct dm is a horrible disease, I lived thru it with my one german shep so I try to stay away from it. the sad problem is extremely few GSD blood-lines/dogs are dm clear and it has been stated by the GSD family and the medical (dm) fields: example Embark that to breed only dm cleared dogs would cause a severe bottle neck on the breed to the point of massive in-breeding and that even cleared DM dogs have still came down with the disease. research, know what you are getting into and you should be fine. Not everybody wants a working dog nor shows them, if there is any clubs/shutzhund training available near them(not in half my state), heath/temperament is more important to me then working titles. ps every breeder starts off as a Back yard breeder, yes that doesn't mean its right but its the facts=research.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

dojoson41 said:


> You are correct dm is a horrible disease, I lived thru it with my one german shep so I try to stay away from it. the sad problem is extremely few GSD blood-lines/dogs are dm clear and it has been stated by the GSD family and the medical (dm) fields: example Embark that to breed only dm cleared dogs would cause a severe bottle neck on the breed to the point of massive in-breeding and that even cleared DM dogs have still came down with the disease. research, know what you are getting into and you should be fine. Not everybody wants a working dog nor shows them, if there is any clubs/shutzhund training available near them(not in half my state), heath/temperament is more important to me then working titles. ps every breeder starts off as a Back yard breeder, yes that doesn't mean its right but its the facts=research.


A couple things. First and foremost, if you aren’t interested in working a dog then why would you get a working dog in the first place. I’m 100 opposed to anyone breeding working dogs who can’t work. There’s plenty of companion breeds, bred to be companions, that are far better in that role. The next thing is as far as “everyone starts as a backyard breeder,” that’s completely false. Everyone doesn’t start off knowing everything and no one does. That’s not an excuse for building a breeding program on subpar foundations. When the first litter someone breed produces 2 world level dogs and a national champion, they aren’t starting as a backyard breeder. That’s just ridiculous. As for dm, according to the OFA database 56% of shepherds tested are clear, 29% are carriers.




__





Disease Statistics by Breed | OFA


View disease statistics by dog breed, provided by OFA. Contact us with any questions.




ofa.org









Degenerative Myelopathy | OFA







ofa.org


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

I would personally run a mile. Non standard colours, no health tests or temperament testing, no working/show or other titles. Not for me, sorry.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dojoson41 said:


> You are correct dm is a horrible disease, I lived thru it with my one german shep so I try to stay away from it. the sad problem is extremely few GSD blood-lines/dogs are dm clear and it has been stated by the GSD family and the medical (dm) fields: example Embark that to breed only dm cleared dogs would cause a severe bottle neck on the breed to the point of massive in-breeding and that even cleared DM dogs have still came down with the disease. research, know what you are getting into and you should be fine. Not everybody wants a working dog nor shows them, if there is any clubs/shutzhund training available near them(not in half my state), heath/temperament is more important to me then working titles. ps every breeder starts off as a Back yard breeder, yes that doesn't mean its right but its the facts=research.


First of all, there are three possible results for DM testing. Clear, Affected and At Risk. Responsible breeders use the information to make sound breeding decisions. A dog gets one copy of the gene from each parent. 
Even human medical testing has a failure rate. NO test is 100%. To suggest that they should be is ridiculous.
Second, DM is a diagnosis of elimination. It can only be determined after death. Very few owners do that and there are any number of diseases/conditions that mimic the symptoms. 
My current dog has a spinal issue. I lost a previous dog to DM. While I find it frightening that Shadow scuffs, stumbles and wobbles, the reality is that it is much more likely her displaced vertebra then DM.
Third, this is a working breed. It needs to remain a working breed. It is those herding genetics that give us the wonderful, versatile and intelligent companion that we so love. The loss of those genetics will alter the breed. I have no interest in bite sports or showing, but I recognize that the breed must be tested to be preserved.
And last but not least, NO! All breeders do not start out as BYB's! That is simply not true.

No one who wants a GSD, who loves the breed, who thrills at the intelligence and the versatility should be supporting the breeding of substandard dogs.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

Sabis mom said:


> First of all, there are three possible results for DM testing. Clear, Affected and At Risk. Responsible breeders use the information to make sound breeding decisions. A dog gets one copy of the gene from each parent.
> Even human medical testing has a failure rate. NO test is 100%. To suggest that they should be is ridiculous.
> Second, DM is a diagnosis of elimination. It can only be determined after death. Very few owners do that and there are any number of diseases/conditions that mimic the symptoms.
> My current dog has a spinal issue. I lost a previous dog to DM. While I find it frightening that Shadow scuffs, stumbles and wobbles, the reality is that it is much more likely her displaced vertebra then DM.
> ...


Great post!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are worse diseases than DM. Diseases we can't even test for. IMO, some of these "DM affected" dogs that are diagnosed but not necropsied have a completely different disease....one that is far worse than DM...and people aren't picking up on the other symptoms.


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## RedactedSource (Jan 14, 2022)

Jax08 said:


> There are worse diseases than DM. Diseases we can't even test for. IMO, some of these "DM affected" dogs that are diagnosed but not necropsies have a completely different disease....one that is far worse than DM...and people aren't picking up on the other symptoms.


Just out of curiosity, what disease is that and what are the symptoms?


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## Grendel602 (3 mo ago)

Good bill of health from the vet, well behaved, and a ball of joy -- and sleep. Taken during a 2 mile hike...he probably over did it trying to keep up with his big sister (we carried him when needed).


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