# Prong or e-collar????



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

It's been a while since I posted anything about Stella's reactivity. (at least I think it has been) Anyway, things were going well after I started using a prong collar. Then we had a bunch of loose dogs charge at her at different times, in different places,....it was crazy. And the weather was nasty so I probably did not walk her as often for a while. Soooooo, it seems we have regressed and Stella has gone back to reacting. Not as bad as before thankfully. My trainer got me an e-collar to use for Stella's barking in the yard, and said I should use it for reactivity as well. I don't really know if I feel comfortable with the e-collar yet. The prong was highly effective, it just looks awful. And I don't want to spend the day shocking her in the yard, while on walks, etc. 
A different trainer I go to for more "fun" training is more on the treat treat treat side of things. But I know treats mean nothing to Stella once she gets her "Poof on". (all puffed up, tail stiff) 
Just curious as to what might be better....e-collar or prong? And I don't want to start a debate about training methods. For me and Stella, the prong enabled us to take walks and keep things under control......:wild:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

katdog5911 said:


> But I know treats mean nothing to Stella once she gets her "Poof on". (all puffed up, tail stiff)
> For me and Stella, the prong enabled us to take walks and keep things under control......:wild:


One of the primary things for good training is timing.

And once your dog is puffed up and has a stiff tail then you probably lost the training window where you would be in control and teach. Instead you are in the bad place of reacting to the bad and doing damage control.

Distance is your friend with a reactive dog and teaching. I personally would maybe have the prong collar on, but wouldn't be relying on that for the training.

Instead I would be working to help my dog become less reactive, rather than punishing once I was LATE and my dog is in freak out zone.

Did you start the clicker training and 'The Surprise Game' yet? How did that work after a few weeks?


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

If you do not act your dog might. Who is the leader and defender, well it all rest on you.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I did my own version of that I guess. But once Stella saw a dog, or whatever, even before she got her "poof on", she wouldn't care if I was a walking filet mignon, wrapped in bacon. And we have gotten to the point where she will "leave it", (the other dog or whatever) if we are not too close. We were at the point of actually being able to walk right by them! Now the big issue is when walking and a dog is coming right towards us. Although, yesterday we did walk by a dog that was coming towards us on the opposite side of the street. 
So, what is the best course of action if she starts poofing up? Or what do I do when I see a dog, although she usually sees it first? I maybe can treat her at that point, but I am doubtful. Do I go the other way? Making her sit and try to focus on me doesn't really work out so much. 
Maybe we just need to get back at it again.....


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

harmony said:


> If you do not act your dog might. Who is the leader and defender, well it all rest on you.


Not sure what you mean????


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

People just do not go out and use these collars, lazy is bad. They use them for training in the right way and after a certain point.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

harmony said:


> People just do not go out and use these collars, lazy is bad. They use them for training in the right way and after a certain point.


I must be in need of a strong cup of coffee because I am still not sure what you are trying to say. 
I did not just go out and use the prong. I have worked with a trainer who worked with Stella first and then showed me. I haven't had the e-collar very long and with the holidays and other stuff, I haven't seen my trainer since getting it. We have talked on the phone about how I should use it. I just don't know if it would be more effective than a prong. And I am not sure I like using it for this particular issue.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

katdog5911 said:


> Not sure what you mean????


You have to be the leader and defender, K9s know that! So I wonder what kind of people want a dog these days? Never ask your dog more then yourself please.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

katdog5911 said:


> I must be in need of a strong cup of coffee because I am still not sure what you are trying to say.
> I did not just go out and use the prong. I have worked with a trainer who worked with Stella first and then showed me. I haven't had the e-collar very long and with the holidays and other stuff, I haven't seen my trainer since getting it. We have talked on the phone about how I should use it. I just don't know if it would be more effective than a prong. And I am not sure I like using it for this particular issue.


Sorry, do what you would for your self and help a dog along, dogs are not people


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

harmony said:


> If you do not act your dog might. Who is the leader and defender, well it all rest on you.






> Now the big issue is when walking and a dog is coming right towards us.


Just because a dog is walking towards you doesn't mean you have to keep walking towards it while you are working thru this issue. Going down a side street. Taking your dog off the sidewalk and into a sit with you between it and the oncoming dog/handler. Crossing to the other side of the road. Not walking your dog in areas where you may meet a dog until you work thru this again.

Go back and really watch/listen to the video The Surprise Party and don't dismiss the time element involved. Though since it sounded like things were better for awhile if you are consistant things may progress well. Set your dog up to SUCCEED rather than fail so if you know something is too much than avoid it rather than have another bad experience. 

Did you purchase/view the DVD 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugaas? Tons of information on reactive dogs and how to help early on before the situation is out of hand, and how to look for the quieter precurser signals our dogs throw out that we 'stupid' humans tend to miss entirely or misread.





 
YOu want the DVD not just the book...

Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Things were great. We had gotten to the point of being able to ignore the other dog or meet it if it was a non aggressive dog. I guess it was a combination of things we did but the deciding factor was the prong collar. And of course lots of praise when Stella was appropriate. I am hoping that we can get back to the place we were at. 
I am wondering if the prong collar is too tight....I think maybe Stella's neck has grown....How do I know it is fitting correctly? I would ask the trainer but not sure when we will see him.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

A dog or person might act for you, when you, or become to weak . Dogs act out to some people that own them.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Just because a dog is walking towards you doesn't mean you have to keep walking towards it while you are working thru this issue. Going down a side street. Taking your dog off the sidewalk and into a sit with you between it and the oncoming dog/handler. Crossing to the other side of the road. Not walking your dog in areas where you may meet a dog until you work thru this again.

This is so true. But it reminds me of not too long ago when we were walking, we saw a dog coming towards us so we turned around. Well, guess what, another dog was coming from that direction too! We had nowhere to go except a driveway, where a dog proceeded to bark at us from inside. Dogs dogs everywhere:crazy:


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

We have used both for our dog. I just find the prong more effective. it is hard to both carry a leash and the transmitter and do a good job of timing. The key is the dog knowing what it is being corrected for. If for example you command "look at me" and the dog continues to focus on the other dog then a correction works. You don't want the dog to associate the prong or e collar with the presence of other dogs. Practice it when other dogs are not around.

We use the e collar exclusively for off lead work. Most of the time it is for his safety (ie-running after wildlife).

I would think the e collar would be effective for barking in the yard, but don't have that problem so I am just guessing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't think either of these tools are meant for permanent use. Both are used for training purposes only. If the dog is fine on the prong, when will it be fine without it. Do people actually use a prong for the lifetime of a dog? Is the e collar used forever? Please forgive my questions, I do not use either of these tools How long does one use these tools for training and if its for a long duration of time, is the dog really trained at all? I guess what I'm saying is that if for example(as someone else wrote) the dog is off lead and an e collar is used so that dog doesn't chase wildlife, how long does the collar have to be used before the dog is actually trained not to chase wildlife without the collar?


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I don't think either of these tools are meant for permanent use. Both are used for training purposes only. If the dog is fine on the prong, when will it be fine without it. Do people actually use a prong for the lifetime of a dog? Is the e collar used forever? Please forgive my questions, I do not use either of these tools How long does one use these tools for training and if its for a long duration of time, is the dog really trained at all? I guess what I'm saying is that if for example(as someone else wrote) the dog is off lead and an e collar is used so that dog doesn't chase wildlife, how long does the collar have to be used before the dog is actually trained not to chase wildlife without the collar?


These are good questions. The e collar is merely a last defense for our dog now. He doesn't respond differently with it on or off these days. Its more for our own piece of mind.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

If the prong worked for you and your dog I would keep using it. If you decide you want to use a e collar I would check out Lou Castle's site. I think both tools are for training and eventually you ween your dog off of them. 

Home


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Kaylee, if the prong worked for you, go with it and see if you can rework what's been lost.

Personally, I'd start by going somewhere that she isn't going to run into other dogs, start back at the beginning sort of.

I know you said you kind of slacked off, but the dogs she encountered , were they dogs that were charging her? or ones you just seem to cross paths with?? 

A reactive dog especially is not going to put up with another dog 'charging' them, that alone, can leave an impression and idea of "i'm going to get you before you get me" amping up the reactivity with ANY dog whether it's charging them or just minding it's own business..

Ok done rambling,,hope you can get back to where you were


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I hope to not use the prong or e collar forever. We were at a point where I was able to use just a flat collar on her when we were near other dogs in certain places where she was comfortable. (I always had the prong on her in case I saw trouble brewing, but didn't use it) My plan with the e collar was to use it for the barking and off leash work. Not going to start the off leash till I meet with trainer. He suggested the e collar for the reactivity after I told him how she had regressed. I think I will use the prong again for now since it seemed to work well in the past. But how tight is too tight????


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## blueoctgal (Jun 6, 2012)

FWIW I have an 8 month old male who moved from fur saver to prong and 2 months ago we started with the e collar with a trainer. It has made a tremendous difference in recall and leave it. However once Teddy gets into that aggitated place all bets are off - it only fules his crazies. Leerburg has a training video on the correct way to use the collar as well as a Q&A section on their website.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I know you said you kind of slacked off, but the dogs she encountered , were they dogs that were charging her? or ones you just seem to cross paths with


It seemed like all of a sudden we ran into loose dogs wherever we walked. A few ran out of their yards into the road (we don't have sidewalks) at us. One was just for a sniff, but one actually attacked my other dog that my husband was holding. Stella didn't get involved physically because I pulled her behind me and was yelling leave it but I am sure she sensed the craziness. Another time my neighbors dog was running loose while Stella was in the yard. I had just put my other dog in the house and was going to get Stella. She barked at the dog and the other dog just ran into out yard and went for her. I yelled something, not sure what, and it ended when the other owner, (who was walking up the street) called his dog. This has also now added to the barking nonsense in the yard....but that's a whole other thread! And to top it all off, a dog in her Obedience class that she played with previously, decided she didn't like Stella anymore and got snarky. So we had a bad couple of weeks. But she has gone to doggie day care and been fine with the other dogs. And she still has her little yorkie friend. 
Anyhow, I guess I will go back a few steps with the prong and hope to make up some of the stuff we lost.......
Thanks for all the advice.


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## Jolynna (Dec 29, 2012)

I am a fan of my e-collar. My German shepherd wanted to kill my cats when we first got him. Now he gets along fine with them and the only times I use the e-collar are when company comes over with a dog my dog hasn't met before. Or if I am going to be outside with him off leash--we have a woods with trails on our property. My e-collar has become more of a precaution than anything else.

But, it was the only thing that got Max to get past his attempts-to-kill-cat obsession.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I really need to get some training with the e collar. I have been using it in the yard to stop her from her barking frenzy. It has really been helping with that. But I have also tried to use it for her reactivity (after speaking to trainer) and I don't really feel totally comfortable with it. I plan on using it to teach better recall in the future after meeting with the trainer. I didn't feel totally comfortable with the prong at first either. So maybe it is just a matter of getting better trained at it myself. 
Curious as to how most people have used it.....The vibrate mode does not seem to do anything with Stella. 
My trainer said I should use the "C" mode, not the "N" mode. 
One thing I have noticed is that sometimes it seems she doesn't notice any mode at any setting. She is not particularly long haired and I think I put it on tight enough. Not sure what that is all about.....


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## mchcthrn (Dec 26, 2012)

Katdog, my guess is that if you need to use a serious training tool such as a prong, your timing or management or something else still needs some work, particularly if your dog has regressed. I would tend to focus on making myself a better handler. Also, in my experience, prongs can sometimes amp a dog up instead of having a calming effect. 

If your timing is off, you wouldn't want to use a super precise tool such as an e-collar. Punishments given at the wrong time with the wrong level of intensity will damage your bond with your dog and increase her overall level of anxiety, since she may not know what the punishments are coming for and/or she may associate it with something you don't want her to, such as yourself, the other dog, or anything else in the environment, like passing strangers. Increased anxiety often leads to increased aggression. 

The fact that she sometimes plays with other dogs does not really help. I would tend to keep a reactive girl like her only on-leash around other dogs and work on making myself the primary target of her focus. If you let her play with other dogs, you are only allowing her to be aroused around other dogs. From her perspective, why is it okay to be aroused in doggy daycare, but not on walks? (Unless you have one of those _really rare_ but amazing, organized, and CALM doggy daycares) I'm not saying don't socialize her, but more with things like calm down stays around other dogs or just "hanging out" calmly around well behaved dogs - no chasing, mouthing, roughhousing, pinning, mounting, body slamming, wrestling, etc - just co-existing calmly. 

I really like head collars for redirecting eye contact without increasing anxiety. A loose lead plus no eye contact equals no reactivity. A head collar combined with a buckle collar or front clip harness can be a GREAT pair for walks. However, I would highly recommend working with a trainer skilled in reactive dogs who can help you learn to work with this equipment, as it does require quite a bit of skill. 

After a couple of months, she should get the pattern and begin looking to you when she sees another dog instead of staring and reacting. At that point, you can wean off the head collar; although, a no-pull harness is probably a great long-term management tool for a reactive dog. 

I hope this helps!


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I have the no pull harness and that is what I was using before the prong. I haven't used a head collar before. 
Actually, I have been working on the focus issue lately. It is a work in progress.
I have to agree about my timing or something being off with the e collar. Will have to speak to trainer about it. The holidays have really played havoc with my schedule and being able to see trainer.
Haven't noticed that the prong amps Stella up. It was the only thing that seemed to help. We were doing so well. Not sure what happened. Charging dogs, crazy schedule, not enough walks.....a combination of everything...??? But after the next 2 days I am hoping life gets back to normal and we will start again. Will try and take it slow. Maybe it won't take too long to get back to where we were at.......I can only hope.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

you can also try Control Unleashed: Leslie McDevitt: Control Unleashed®, The Book

and the book Help for your Fearful Dog by Nicole Wilde: Welcome to Dogwise.com

both are really good books to help dogs with issues, whether fearful or aggressive or just to fine tune .. i have used both and they give you a neutral perspective and sometimes a new way to work with something


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## Jolynna (Dec 29, 2012)

Here is a picture of a former cat killer after just two weeks of using an e-collar. As you can see in the picture he isn't wearing the e-collar any more. He almost NEVER wears it any more...and when he does we only use the sound button.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Scrapped the e collar for walks and leash/dog reactivity. Just use it in the yard when she charges the property line and barks. Giving her the leave it command with a stim. A lot of the time I don't even have to push the button any more, just have to say leave it. 

Am using the prong for our walks....along with canned spray cheese/meat. Trying to stay as far away as we need to from other dogs. No reaction =cheese, reaction=prong correction. 

Also am starting flower essence therapy. Not sure what I think about this but it was recommended by the trainer. We'll see.


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## lmuns349 (Mar 22, 2012)

Jolynna,
How exactly did you use the e-collar to train with the cat? I've tried positive reinforcement with our 1-year-old, but he gets so worked up over our cat. I'm afraid to get a collar and use it the wrong way. But if it worked for you, maybe I will try it as a last resort...


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