# Penn-HIP / OFA Certifications Accuracy



## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

So my GSD will be 24 months in August and I've contemplated having her hips/elbows certified. I found two articles regarding both OFA and Penn-HIP, but I'm wondering if I should wait until she's older to have it done? The first article below seems to indicate waiting may give a more accurate diagnosis, stating:

" The hip scores measured on 37–60 month-old-dogs were significantly higher (P<0.01) than those measured on 24 or 25–29 month-old-dogs" [ Monitoring Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Achieved Modest Genetic Improvement of 74 Dog Breeds over 40 Years in USA ]

Here, the second artcle [ Hip dysplasia – do OFA certified parents mean your puppy will have good hips? ], indicates that the Penn-HIP is a more reliable/concise measurement, though it states OFA certification is still good.

I have seen a lot of breeders start their dogs producing at 2 years of age, so my first question is, shouldn't breeders avoid marketing/producing off OFA certs with dogs that are only 2 year olds? My second question is if you have had these tests done on your younger GSD and get good results, only to then later realize your GSD still developed HD/ED?

I'm looking to add a male pup in the next months and I'd be interested know your experiences and opinions of Penn-HIP testing, as well as any who bought from a litter with certifed sire/dam, only to get a dog with issues later.

Thanks.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Rionel said:


> So my GSD will be 24 months in August and I've contemplated having her hips/elbows certified. I found two articles regarding both OFA and Penn-HIP, but I'm wondering if I should wait until she's older to have it done? The first article below seems to indicate waiting may give a more accurate diagnosis, stating:
> 
> " The hip scores measured on 37–60 month-old-dogs were significantly higher (P<0.01) than those measured on 24 or 25–29 month-old-dogs" [ Monitoring Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Achieved Modest Genetic Improvement of 74 Dog Breeds over 40 Years in USA ]
> 
> ...



I would say personally that all breeders and those who do sports should have their dogs tested using both OFA and PennHip. Not that long ago I read a Journal Article about the Seeing Eye's dogs and their program for atempting to eliminate HD. I can't seem to find it right now. Basically, they have their own method of grading hips very similar to OFA. Eventually after 10-11 generations of selection all of the dogs were being graded 'Excellent'; however, at one point they incorporated PennHip scores into the process. They found that while the joint conformation was practically identical (equivalent to OFA Excellent), the PennHip scores still varied wildly. My personal conclusion after reading it was that the genetics related most closely with each scoring method was different. One method helped select for conformation and the other for laxity; thus, both methods are important for a more complete picture of joint health and longevity. I'll update if I can manage to find it again because it was quite an excellent article.

I just did the PennHip and OFA on my dog last week. I haven't gotten the OFA results back yet, but I have received the PennHip results. I looks like she may pass OFA with a Fair rating, but her one hip has much more laxity than the other.

Her results for PennHip were: Right .38, Left .62

That left hip is significantly below breed average (currently 0.42). While PennHip does not 'fail' a dog, I consider that to be a 'failing' grade. With this result even if her OFA rating comes back with a Fair, I would say that given her chances of developing HD in the future she will likely not be able to participate in sports. If I was a breeder I would wash her from a breeding program based on the left hip alone. 

The Distraction Index from the PennHip score has a higher level of heritability than OFA scores do. In other words, she'll very likely pass that .62 or near it to any puppies if she were to have any. If she was in a breeding home (like she almost was placed into) and the breeder only did OFA, they would likely not know just how bad her left hip really was and breed her. She would likely have 'failing' puppies as well, unless the sire had hips in the 80th percentile or better. The breeder would have to know to breed to a sire with a DI of 0.3 or better to hope that the puppies would be close to breed average. 

Obviously, some of my statements are somewhat of a generalization. But I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to convey. In my case, my dog will likely develop HD in the left hip in her old age and without the testing I wouldn't know that. I advise both tests being done for a better picture.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Here is a fun graphic of OFA scores and offspring from parents with each rating:


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

OFA is actually one of the more strict grading systems. The SV grades hips at year as do some other countries. 
It's a tough sell to get people to wait 2 years as it is! 
If you see a pedigree with a bunch of (a3) dogs in it that is equal to OFA mild! 
Breeders do their best as it is I would not force them to wait the best years of a breeding female's fertility when the accuracy of our scoring methods are reasonable and PennHip is a good predictor.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I sent mine to the SV. They only do GSD xrays and they evaluate the spine now.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

JRadtke said:


> OFA is actually one of the more strict grading systems. The SV grades hips at year as do some other countries.
> It's a tough sell to get people to wait 2 years as it is!
> If you see a pedigree with a bunch of (a3) dogs in it that is equal to OFA mild!
> Breeders do their best as it is I would not force them to wait the best years of a breeding female's fertility when the accuracy of our scoring methods are reasonable and PennHip is a good predictor.
> ...


Thanks for such a thoughtful response! I hope your dog doesn't have issues as she ages. I think I will look into doing both as well.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> I sent mine to the SV. They only do GSD xrays and they evaluate the spine now.


Thanks Jax08. Did you choose SV because of your dog's registration?


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Rionel said:


> Thanks for such a thoughtful response! I hope your dog doesn't have issues as she ages. I think I will look into doing both as well.


I certainly hope so too! At the very least I know what she is disposed to at an early age. She'll be on supplements her whole life, but surgery likely won't be nessasary. 

She isn't symptomatic now, and she's not the type to show pain if she is. 
So its important to know that I likely won't be able to push her into an agility career.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

I have found the Journal Article that I spoke about. I happened to come across it the in the files folder of a facebook group I frequent. 

It is really one of the more insightful papers I read in sometime.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

This is my favorite quote from the article that shows why doing PH and OFA is important and why we should make selections based upon both. The genes that give you an ofa score are different than the genes that give you the DI for pennhip. 



> 8. Estimates of genetic correlation between HES and PennHIP DI phenotypes were small in magnitude in all 3 breeds. This strongly suggests that genes controlling expression of joint laxity have only slight overlap with genes that control expression of hip joint conformation as seen in the HEV radiograph


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

JRadtke said:


> This is my favorite quote from the article that shows why doing PH and OFA is important and why we should make selections based upon both. The genes that give you an ofa score are different than the genes that give you the DI for pennhip.


Thanks - I'll give it a read for sure.


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