# Fronts and angulation



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Question: Other than the asthectic beauty, what is the purpose of the "Fronts" that you see promoted in the show ring? Not being funny, I really don't know. I don't see these type fronts on the preponderance of working GS.(especially herding dogs). I remember back to when the top show dogs in the world produced the top working dogs in the world,(Bernd v Lierberg, Marko vom Cellerland, Frei vom Gugge, Mutz v d Peltierferm,etc), and these dogs didn't have these fronts. So what is the actual purpose of these type fronts that make them correct or useful to the breed to perform the tasks it was created for???


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I hear it more with AM lines and I would suspect it adds to the "suspension" of the flying trot.








I honestly do not know and should probably shut up but that is they way I have always interpreted it in my mind.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cliff, can you post photos so we know what "fronts" you are talking about?


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Lisa, I believe his question stems on the other angulation topic currently being discussed. 

About the last third of the thread  Well for me it starts on page 3 and mine is set up for 20 or 25 posts at a time. I believe Xeph originally mentioned it.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ruq is right, this stems from some pics Xeph posted showing lack of fronts and the type of fronts she likes to see....i have heard American show people talk about these fronts for 20 years, but have never had an explanation of their use other than the compliment to the angle theory that improves dogs ability to herd. Knowing that this extreme on angulation has never translated to great herding dogs, I wondered what was reason it was felt that these type of fronts were correct for the GS.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The point of a well angled front in all breeds is to extend reach making for more efficient movement. An overangulated front does the same as an over angulated rear...it does bad things xD. 

However, generally what we get are UNDERangulated fronts, and those are the dogs that lift/paddle/ground pound/run downhill. It depends on whether or not the upper arm is short steep, if the shoulder is straight, or if it's a combination of any of the aforementioned.


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Xeph
> However, generally what we get are UNDERangulated fronts, and those are the dogs that lift/paddle/ground pound/run downhill. It depends on whether or not the upper arm is short steep, if the shoulder is straight, or if it's a combination of any of the aforementioned.


My dogs would probably fit your explanation of a poor front, however, they can and do move VERY efficiently and can keep moving for long periods of time. So I guess I do not understand the theory behind this either but I also tend to believe what I see not what others think when it comes to dogs.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Front angulation in a dog or horse also provides for better shock absorption during movement and jumping. I am not talking about the incorrect shoulders found on either show extremes, but the shoulders asked for in the standard. If you look at photos of Bodo and Bodo in movement or Dingo Haus Gero in photos and the video of his movement you will see what I mean. The correct shoulder angulation also allows for more efficient movement as does the angulation in the rear when balanced to the front (balance, not extremes). 

What the Ambred breeders did is actually change the lay back of the shoulder to make it easier to move with the extreme over angulation in the rear. I won't even go into the mess that the Germans have made of shoulders. 

The GSD is a trotting breed that should have movement that is efficient yet not so extreme that they lose the athleticism, agility and endurance needed in a working dog. The extremes are no longer working dogs. Many Ambreds are pretty balanced in movement (when I did my AD with Nike there was one and he moved beautifully) at the trot, but have lost most everything else in the process.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Dingo had a FANTASTIC shoulder, and the Amline people still comment on how nice it was. The only thing they really faulted him on was a slight kick up in the rear (which I didn't see myself, but, maybe I'm missing it).


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

This is the sterotype American Show Line GSD.



















She has an upright, "open" shoulder and an extremely long stifle. (She is mine and I can talk about her that way.) She lacks balance, which would be the biggest factor structually in her being a poor herding dog.



















This dog is better balanced and should make a better herding dog in that respect.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Ok, for those of us who are still in the dark ...

Daphne - could you take your pictures and draw on them to show exactly what you are talking about?


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Like Forest Gump stumbling into a Mensa meeting







..... I really need a few pics with the shoulder angles drawn on 'em, if anyone cares to try to do this for us? I understand stuff like pasterns too steep, croup too short (I think?) etc.. but upper arm too short? Shoulder too straight? Howzat gonna look? I am totally confuzzled.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Bodo Lierberg with a correct shoulder.









In motion. Because of his long upper arm (elbow to point of shoulder) he is able to open up his shoulder and cover ground easily.









Short upper arm, straight shoulder. This dog's reach would be limited. The short upper arm also limits how the shoulder is able to open up and causes lifting in front.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Oooh.. this does help! Thank you Lisa! This is great!! I really appreciate these!


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangOk, for those of us who are still in the dark ...
> 
> Daphne - could you take your pictures and draw on them to show exactly what you are talking about?


Sorry guys. I am not computer literate enough to manage that. You get whatever is on my hard drive!


----------

