# Sticky  "Should I breed my dog?" Flowchart



## heatherr

I saw this posted on another dog forum...










Hopefully this can help illustrate to some people why they shouldn't (Or should!) breed their dog.


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## 1der_girl

Love it!!!


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## WarrantsWifey

I got all the way around to the hips part. He isn't quite old enough for his hips yet. Thats a really good flow chart though!!


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## Lucy Dog

Good stuff. This should be made a sticky so it's always on top.


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## Myamom

Love it and I agree...sticky!


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## rvadog

Eh. Truth is if you are asking that question the answer is no.

When you are ready to bred, are knowledgeable enough on the breed and have breed worthy dogs then you will know.


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## Lucy Dog

rvadog said:


> Eh. Truth is if you are asking that question the answer is no.
> 
> When you are ready to bred, are knowledgeable enough on the breed and have breed worthy dogs then you will know.


Yeah, but the average person coming on here asking when to breed their cute puppy doesn't know that.

A chart like this can be pretty helpful to someone just looking to breed their cute puppy once old enough to give to all of their friends and family.


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## Metalsmith

Please make this a sticky!


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## heatherr

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah, but the average person coming on here asking when to breed their cute puppy doesn't know that.
> 
> A chart like this can be pretty helpful to someone just looking to breed their cute puppy once old enough to give to all of their friends and family.


Exactly! I worry that some people come on here wanting to know if they should breed their cute puppy without paperwork, or knowing both parents, etc. etc. and then when they get bombarded with comments upon comments about everything, sometimes that can come off snarky, they sign off, never look back, and BOOM another litter of pups that do nothing to promote the GSD breed while there are plenty of other cute puppies in shelters and rescue networks without homes.

I saw this and thought it might be a little less aggressive way to get those points across.


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## selzer

I went around the circle to the section where it says are you emotionally prepared to take all the crap that could go wrong with a whelping. 

I thought I was. 

I do not know anyone who can guarantee what type of basketcase they will be during the horrible stuff. 

I just watched a c-section. You cannot KNOW what that will be like, unless you have been there and done that, and even then, when it is your dog strapped to the table being sliced open....


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## Verivus

That is an awesome flowchart. It'll help the people who *think* their dog should be bred! Hope you don't mind me posting this on another forum I frequent.


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## vomlittlehaus

Wow....love the flowchart....that should be posted in vet offices....I know what to expect for a c-section.....just dont know how I would handle it with my own dog(emotionally I mean).


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## Hunther's Dad

selzer said:


> I went around the circle to the section where it says are you emotionally prepared to take all the crap that could go wrong with a whelping.
> 
> I thought I was.
> 
> I do not know anyone who can guarantee what type of basketcase they will be during the horrible stuff.
> 
> I just watched a c-section. You cannot KNOW what that will be like, unless you have been there and done that, and even then, when it is your dog strapped to the table being sliced open....


Or how about this: Your bitch is in labor for 9 hours and has had 6 pups (one pup every 1.5 hours +/- 10 minutes). You go in the house to use the bathroom. Pup #7 is born, mom's tired, she goes for the umbilical cord, misses, and bites off the back legs of a perfectly healthy puppy. And your freaked-out wife finds it.

I'm certain that _Breeding Dogs For Dummies_ didn't mention anything like _that_.


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## [email protected]

WarrantsWifey said:


> I got all the way around to the hips part. He isn't quite old enough for his hips yet. Thats a really good flow chart though!!


I guess not to many breeders actually "care" about hips. I have a five generation pedigree provided by AKC for my GSD and of the 62 GSD's that have been bred on that pedigree only ONE (yes ONE) has OFA certification.


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## onyx'girl

[email protected] said:


> I guess not to many breeders actually "care" about hips. I have a five generation pedigree provided by AKC for my GSD and of the 62 GSD's that have been bred on that pedigree only ONE (yes ONE) has OFA certification.


Do they have A stamp? OFA is the US's database.


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## [email protected]

onyx'girl said:


> Do they have A stamp? OFA is the US's database.


No they do not. Sorry, I should have been more specific.

(but 18 of them have their DNA registered at AKC).


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## Liesje

Check the a-stamp database. A lot of imported dogs are AKC registered and/or have DNA on file. AKC requires that studs have DNA on file if they produce a certain number of litters. My dog's pedigree has zero OFAs but they are all a-stamped in Germany.


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## blackshep

I think generally speaking, if you have to ask yourself if it's a good idea to breed your dog, it's probably not a good idea. 

PS. LOVE the flow chart!!!


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## Zeeva

yes i second. should be a sticky!


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## GSD07

blackshep said:


> I think generally speaking, if you have to ask yourself if it's a good idea to breed your dog, it's probably not a good idea.


 I do not see any logic in this statement. It's always a good idea to question breeding. You think 'reputable breeders' (whatever that means) don't ask themselves if it's a good idea to breed that dog that they kept from the previous litter, what combination would be the best, etc etc? 

I do not like the flowchart because it's very patronizing, and some statements are questionable. If I were those 'some people' I would be pushed to breed my dog just in spite.


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## Liesje

GSD07 said:


> I do not see any logic in this statement. It's always a good idea to question breeding. You think 'reputable breeders' (whatever that means) don't ask themselves if it's a good idea to breed that dog that they kept from the previous litter, what combination would be the best, etc etc?
> 
> I do not like the flowchart because it's very patronizing, and some statements are questionable.


:thumbup:

To me it makes more sense to say, if you are using a random flowchart on the Internet to decide whether to breed your dog, you should not breed your dog.


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## blackshep

GSD07 said:


> I do not see any logic in this statement. It's always a good idea to question breeding. You think 'reputable breeders' (whatever that means) don't ask themselves if it's a good idea to breed that dog that they kept from the previous litter, what combination would be the best, etc etc?
> 
> I do not like the flowchart because it's very patronizing, and some statements are questionable. If I were those 'some people' I would be pushed to breed my dog just in spite.


I think a good, responsible breeder will (or should) know if their dog is worth breeding IMHO. They don't have to ask strangers on the internet if it's a good idea.


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## canon

Leave the breeding to the pro, there's to many crappie wannabe breeders that don't really care what hits the streets. If you ask"Should I breed my dog?" I would say no, for the reason you don't know. 



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## canon

Sticky!

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## Eiros

Glad I saw this... just sent it to someone who "might breed" but "isnt concerned" about a lot of this stuff.

Arguing with her was not how i wanted to spend my morning. Grrrrrrr


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## Merciel

This is a blog post that I recently wrote for TU. I think it could be a good complementary piece to the flowchart, and it's aimed at the same type of audience, so I'm tacking it onto this thread.

So You’re Thinking About Breeding Your Dog! | Team Unruly

As you can probably gather, although it's (supposed to be) breed- and purpose-neutral, this post owes a lot to various discussions that have happened on this forum and with people I've met through the forum. I owe a lot to the actual breeders and other contributors who have helped me shape my thoughts on this topic.


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## Liesje

Very good article, IMO. Possibly the best I've read on the topic, as far as being able to summarize and generalize on this topic. Better than the flow chart


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## Merciel

Thanks! 

I'm hopeful that it'll come in handy.


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## onyx'girl

I shared it with a local GSD fb page. Thank you for writing it!


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## Liesje

I think it's as good for buyers as it is for someone considering breeding.


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## LifeofRiley

Merciel said:


> This is a blog post that I recently wrote for TU. I think it could be a good complementary piece to the flowchart, and it's aimed at the same type of audience, so I'm tacking it onto this thread.


I found the piece to be engaging, informative and, of course, well written. Nice job, Merciel.


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## LifeofRiley

Liesje said:


> *I think it's as good for buyers* as it is for someone considering breeding.


Re: the bolded part, for the most part, I agree with you.

However, if this piece were to be purposely directed at buyers vs. novice people contemplating breeding their dogs, I would probably like it to also include the fact that shelters and rescues are often used by performance-oriented organizations/individuals to find recruits for their programs. 

Why do they do so? It is because shelters have large populations of young-adult and adult dogs who can be health and temperament tested to determine if any individual dog has what it takes to be part of their program/or to meet an individual’s performance needs. At the end of the day, puppies are always somewhat of a gamble no matter where they come from.


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## me myself and I

I am NOT a dog breeder but I do see several problems with that flowchart and some of the people who respond on this site...
I have been around a few breeders in my life and almost without fail (there is always exceptions to any rule) they all try to discourage anyone from getting into breeding, unless for some reason or another it benefits them or they don't feel threatened by that individual. Of course some of you will disagree, but the simple truth is, they do. Just take this flowchart for example, that is all it does is try to discourage someone new from venturing into this endeavor. Now I have to ask myself, why? The only logical reason I can come up with is fear of competition, not "what's best for the breed"... which leads to the second problem I see. 
Person after person saying we want "what is best for the breed." I have to seriously laugh at this statement, dogs have been breeding long before we stepped in, nature will automatically do "what's best for the breed" whether any of you like it or not. Now I am not saying science can't improve upon nature at all, but having a little age to me, I have seen some very healthy, wonderful animals come out of a non controlled environment. you can take two average dogs and breed a grand champion, then take two grand champions and breed average dogs... there is no guarantee, and many make it sound like there is. Now I am not saying science can't improve the chances, personally I don't know. But, unless you're a Geneticist that specialized in dog genetics, neither can you, nor the people who told you this was a fact. But judging from what I have seen in my life, it doesn't.
The next problem and by far the biggest one: the second step states "reputable breeder (one who follows the guidelines in this flow chart). 
anyone who has a litter and not only wants to unload them, but NEEDS too will say whatever they feel they have to in order to unload said litter upon whoever they can. There is no way unless you know the person very well, that you will know whether they do or don't... and anyone that takes someone else word as fact without knowing for sure, is a fool. So the majority of you might as well just go directly from "begin" to "do not breed" unless you got your entire breeding stock from a family member, friend or source you KNOW you can trust. But there is also a problem with that, where did they get their stock from? And so on and so forth.
Now for the worst case scenario; well know reputable breeder ends up with a dog with papers and a wonderful looking pedigree... said dog came from someone they know who got it from someone they know, whatever. Dog's origins are from a sire that was registered but didn't have breeding rights, dam was registered and had breeding rights. Another dogs credentials were used for the dog without breeding rights... all are registered AKC, let's say, but the pedigree is faked. don't tell me it can't happen, my guess is at least one of you have a dog your using for breeding that came from this or something similar.
In other words, this entire posting in my humble opinion is a JOKE. But hey, who am I? Just my two cents...


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## me myself and I

I have to add, the proposed possibility does not take into account DNA being on file... this will naturally make that impossible.


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## Liesje

me said:


> I have been around a few breeders in my life and almost without fail (there is always exceptions to any rule) they all try to discourage anyone from getting into breeding, unless for some reason or another it benefits them or they don't feel threatened by that individual. Of course some of you will disagree, but the simple truth is, they do. Just take this flowchart for example, that is all it does is try to discourage someone new from venturing into this endeavor.


My experience has been the opposite. Those I know personally who have been breeding quality dogs for a long time were very supportive of me, helped me through my decisions about breeding, and mentored through the actual process of breeding (FWIW the only breeding animal I own is a male, but it was still a big decision/responsibility for me when deciding whether he was breed quality). It's the armchair breeders who've never actually bred anything that have been the most discouraging and the ones pushing flow charts.


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## martemchik

me said:


> In other words, this entire posting in my humble opinion is a JOKE. But hey, who am I? Just my two cents...



And who are you?


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## onyx'girl

Without criteria, there will be problems arising. Without *new* breeders learning how to put together pedigree matches, health testing specific for the breed and keeping themselves held accountable doing it responsibly, what is wrong with that? Mentors are important, and l know of quite a few breeders willing to help others do it responsibly.
Anyone can be a breeder, there is nothing to stop them...and people will buy from them regardless. We all choose who to support as far as breeding practices go.


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## Emoore

me said:


> Person after person saying we want "what is best for the breed." I have to seriously laugh at this statement, dogs have been breeding long before we stepped in, nature will automatically do "what's best for the breed" whether any of you like it or not.


Noooo. . . nature will crate a planet full of very hardy mixed breeds. If we let nature take its course there will be no breeds at all in very short order.


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## selzer

I am interested in the two average dogs that make a grand champion myself. But, it makes sense that you can then breed such a dog to another grand champion and get a very average litter. Because the progeny are a combination of the dogs behind them, not just the sire and dam. And a pedigree of VA dogs or champions is more likely to net you a VA dog or champion than a couple of average dogs. VA is by the way Excellent Select, so none of those dogs would be average. 

In the end it comes from your last paragraph. You know of a dog that oughtn't to have been bred, and was bred, and is now being used with a pedigree that is incorrect. No, most of us who are breeding would not do this, nor would we breed a dog that we knew had a falsified pedigree. 

Could it happen? Yes, it could by a small breeder especially, because if you use a sire less then 3 times in a year or 7 times total there is no requirement for DNA on the dog. Which means, your liklihood of being caught go way down, if you can keep your mouth shut. The thing is, it sounds like your person hasn't, and depending on how big of a fish they are, they will be caught sooner or later. The penalty for that is usually a pretty hefty fine and a suspension for a number of years, maybe 10. Hard to say, but if you look at the old AKC Gazettes, they list the breeders whose litters were found incorrect, and I really don't know what all happens, but I think all the pups from such litters are no longer granted papers. And they do give the penalties that the breeders get.

So, it is generally something most of us wouldn't touch with pole. Some of us do use a male who has been used more than 7 times or an import so DNA has been done on them. And the rest of us use dogs with full registration, because they just aren't that hard to come by. Dog doesn't have full registration, he gets knocked off the list of potential stud dogs period. 

No one serious about the breed is going to breed to a dog they know has a pedigree that is incorrect because we are not just wanting to see the dogs in front of us, we want to see how the back massing is coming into play, and what traits are coming forth. We want to know what dogs are back there, and what to expect. We want to know that we aren't breeding too closely on dogs that we are uncertain about. 

So the post is basically, a post from someone who knows their dog, or a friends dog has an incorrect pedigree, and they want justification to go ahead and use such a dog anyway. Not going to happen.


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## Stonevintage

Well, for me it was all "go" until the last box on the left hand side. "Does your dog's pedigree contain at least four dogs with working,conformation,agility or obedience titles in the last 2 generations? 

For my pup, one gen back AKC but no show/competition, 2 gens back foreign registry with no record but bearing known USA respected names; 3-7 gens back, tons of titles everywhere.

My point is, one of the first blocks for "yes/no" to breeding should have been - "is your dog oversize for breed standard" yes/no. Deal killer with my oversize female.


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## me myself and I

wow, I am impressed on how quick my post got responses... since I do now want to be an internet troll (fyi, best definition I have found for this is on wikipidia under "internet troll" Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)), I will not defend myself. doing such will end up in nothing short of that.
but I will say this; Selzer, I never once stated I know of a dog that someone did that with, or am considering doing it myself, actually I don't. I just know people, and unfortunately most people are greedy and corrupt, common sense tells me this, not only can happen, but most likely has. and I will further state, there is a possibility that if you breed, one of your breeding animals came from this kind of stock many generations back. maybe so far back it would be impossible to trace. same holds true for our family tree's, there is a possibility, somewhere in your ancestry, someone faked a document for whatever reason and there is an ancestor that is of a race or people not accepted to reproduce with your family, at the time, or a marriage that didn't happen when the marriage certificate states it did or whatever. now, that I do personally know of happening, the marriage certificate being faked part, I mean...


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## gsdheeler

WOW, Really??? You can keep your 2 cents.


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## Liesje

LOL so now we are comparing breeding dogs with shotgun weddings? I personally have pretty high standards for breeders and their breeding stock. I don't make decisions about whether I breed my dog (and with which females) based on such low standards. Just because some people are lazy and will breed anything with reproductive organs doesn't mean that all breeders must be really crappy people with no ethics or direction in their breeding program. I know our breed has some problems but I don't have that dire of a view.


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## selzer

me said:


> wow, I am impressed on how quick my post got responses... since I do now want to be an internet troll (fyi, best definition I have found for this is on wikipidia under "internet troll" Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)), I will not defend myself. doing such will end up in nothing short of that.
> but I will say this; Selzer, I never once stated I know of a dog that someone did that with, or am considering doing it myself, actually I don't. I just know people, and unfortunately most people are greedy and corrupt, common sense tells me this, not only can happen, but most likely has. and I will further state, there is a possibility that if you breed, one of your breeding animals came from this kind of stock many generations back. maybe so far back it would be impossible to trace. same holds true for our family tree's, there is a possibility, somewhere in your ancestry, someone faked a document for whatever reason and there is an ancestor that is of a race or people not accepted to reproduce with your family, at the time, or a marriage that didn't happen when the marriage certificate states it did or whatever. now, that I do personally know of happening, the marriage certificate being faked part, I mean...


 No, you did not state it. But I guess you were just sitting on a pebble by the water, playing your guitar, and thought, gee, if someone had a dog that they did not have breeding rights to, and it impregnated a bitch, and they knew of or had another dog, and could just claim that one was the pop, they would be free and clear, and all purebred dogs are just a joke because that is probably what everyone does anyway.

Going on a purebred dog site and saying the whole idea that dogs are purebred is a joke, is about as close to trolling as you can get without actually breaking board rules, and one of the ones, inciting riots, one of the mods around here could probably make a case for. 

What you fail to recognize and what most of the people here do recognize is that we have to trust the breeder to a certain extent, and if we don't, we should not buy a puppy from them. Good breeders deal with people they know and trust, who have a reputation. They look at the dogs they are breeding to, know their backgrounds and see what that has carried forward in that dog, and in the dogs they produce. They look at dogs the dog produces. It matters who the dogs are behind our dogs. Someone just getting into the whole thing, who is just putting a dog with a bitch, might do a lot of things that are unethical or foolish, as with anything else. But most of us would recognize enough foolishness or questionmarks with such a one, that we will have dismissed them from our list of potential breeders long before we discuss pedigrees.


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## TEZPUR1976

IMO if a person is asking "Should I breed my dog" on internet, he/she is not ready for the responsibility.

Its like do I want to have a child?

It is something only the couple can and should decide after consulting experienced people. 

In dog breeding the problem is a bit different, as one also has to find home for the pups.

If i ever have a really good female that I want to breed, I would go for partnership with an experienced breeder to arrange the stud and share the resonsibility of finding home for pups.

But even that is a lot of head ache. Why complicate my life? Better to enjoy the dog I have


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## selzer

TEZPUR1976 said:


> IMO if a person is asking "Should I breed my dog" on internet, he/she is not ready for the responsibility.
> 
> Its like do I want to have a child?
> 
> It is something only the couple can and should decide after consulting experienced people.
> 
> In dog breeding the problem is a bit different, as one also has to find home for the pups.
> 
> If i ever have a really good female that I want to breed, I would go for partnership with an experienced breeder to arrange the stud and share the resonsibility of finding home for pups.
> 
> But even that is a lot of head ache. Why complicate my life? Better to enjoy the dog I have



Just because someone knows their dog is wonderful and breedworthy, and goes ahead and breeds without asking the question, doesn't make him any better than the fellow who does question it, or his dog any more worthy of breeding.

To the lurkers here, the message is quite clear, do not ask questions, because questions qualify you as unqualified. And that is really too bad. 

We need people who have good dogs to breed them. Sorry, I know that isn't a popular stance, but breeders die every year. And the demand for pups is up, not down, like we tend to suggest all the time. We need breeders who are willing to go the extra mile for dogs, to buy dogs with good pedigrees, to train and try the dogs, to agonize over whether the dog is breedworthy, to do health checks on the dog, and then to go forward and breed the dogs. Because, the demand for puppies will be met, either by breeders who are new and trying to do the right thing, or by the puppy mills breeding another bitch and another bitch, and another. The only way to decrease the demand on puppy mills is to increase the supply from people like those on this forum who have decent dogs and want to try their hand at breeding. 

These people will give the bitches a good life. They will try to use a good dog for their bitches. They will consult breeders they know. They will get help from experienced people for the whelping and raising of the puppies. They will try to find the best possible homes for the puppies. 

What has changed in the past ten to twenty years, that our breed has taken such a dip both in temperament and health? One thing is that breeding should be left to professionals, and fewer people are breeding their dogs, and many, many more dogs are being mass produced, sold at pet stores, sold through the internet, dumped in shelters. And generally going to whoever can drop down enough cash on the right day with no questions asked. 

So when someone asks, "should I breed my dog?" our response should not be, "well, if you are asking, no." Our response should be, "Lets see what your dog has, and what you should still accomplish before breeding him or her." I think we should take breeding back from the high volume breeders, and mentor some people who seem willing to learn what it takes.


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## TEZPUR1976

Point well taken. But as u said, this can only happen if experienced people are ready to mentor and encourage the prospective breeders, in spite of just saying " ethical breeding is not profitable".

Another point is that breeders must provide good value for money. Otherwise as u said demand supply gap will be filled up by mills.

This is something is not always happening in India. A friend of mine booked a pup from very good WGSL breeder, at a very very high price. When the pup was sent to him it was down on pasterns and was unable to run. The breeder simply told him "u should try to fix it".

There must be rational valuation of pups if the demand from puppy mills has to go down.


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## scottj

awesome!


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## Rionel

heatherr said:


> I saw this posted on another dog forum...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this can help illustrate to some people why they shouldn't (Or should!) breed their dog.


Not being snarky, but if you have to read this chart - don't breed your dog. The chart is hogwash in a few areas. This stuff being peddled is as bad as a bad breeding.


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## dojoson41

I just found out my young female has tested A/A for DM at OFA while my male tested N/N I am so upset and now I will get my female spayed because I WILL NOT BREED from Carrier that could be passed on to her puppies. I have been through the pain of losing a GSD to DM and I will not put anyone human or dog through it. I think all breeders of GSDs should have a N/N on all the dogs to breed, unknown is not good enough anymore. Lets breed DM OUT


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