# Unsure of whether to have her spayed



## sam the sheperd (Jan 11, 2009)

Well, if it's not teaching bite inhibition, house-training, OB, too much food, too little food, worms, day care, and the other hundreds of things I worry about, here's one more...

Sam will be six months here in a couple of weeks and I have been going back and forth on whether to get her fixed or not.

I need some pros and cons, or whatever else anyone has to offer.

So here is a little about my critter:

Almost turning 6 months and I was told to get her spayed before her first heat.

I am not overly concerned about her getting knocked up. She is with me almost constantly, as I am an over-protective father.

We are going the path of SchH or PPD, it's still a little early to tell. I don't want her getting fixed to affect her performance.

(Sigh) My worries are that she is so young that she really hasn't had time to develop. I am also worried that if I don't get it done then something awful is going to happen, but on the same coin, I am worried about going through what MrLeadFoot did.

Help?

s.t.s.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

First off spays are for the most part safe.In my personal experience with other dog owners I don't know anyone who has had complications.I am a woman and from my point of view having a monthly or for a dog every few months sucks,don't put her through that.Why worry yourself about something happening if you can prevent it.Males dogs are very resourceful to get to a female in heat.It is safer for her to be spayed then to go through life and get different woman cancers.Unless you plan on becoming a breeder,I say just do it.(spay her)In females I don't think it will effect her performance level.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would wait. She needs those hormones to develop, they don't regulate only heat cycles, but a lot of things more that are very complex and personally I wouldn't mess with, specially if you plan to work with her. Years ago I spayed my BC just after her first heat and I still regret it, there is no coming back, while waiting a few months don't harm. All the horror stories of females in heat are more than anything to scare irresponsible owners that don't understand the responsibility of having a dog (spayed or not) and sadly we need those bogeyman tales to control dog population. But if you are a caring owner simple measures prevent females to get pregnant, it is not rocket science either.

Most working people will recommend you to wait until 14-18 months of age, I'd wait even more, to 24-36 to ensure the dog is mature not only physically but psychologically. 

http://www.caninesports.com/EarlySpayConsiderations.pdf

I like to let nature do her job before thinking in my own convenience (yes, it is easier for any owner to have a spayed female than not). Usually my philosophy is not to fix what is not broken.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If you spay here before her first heat her lifetime risk of mammary cancer is close to zero. If you wait until she's 18months old or so (a recommendation I often see on this board), the risk goes up to something like 22%. For me, that's reason enough. However, there are trade offs with either choice and you need to do what's right for you. 

I will say though that the article above is a very poor piece of evidence for anything, other than the power of the Internet. It's an op ed by a person who is opposed to S/N. I know it gets cited all the time but if you actually read the articles he's claiming support his position, many of them don't. I think at least one of them doesn't even mention what he's saying it does. 

So it pays to do your own research of actual scientific journals, otherwise you're getting everything filtered through someone else's opinion.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Spay before first heat/pediatric spay is an American thing - 'heats' are a natural part of life, if you're confident in your ability to manage, then I'd wait.
Surgical neutering dramatically alters the biochemical profile, we condone it for our convenience & stress the health benefits while downplaying the negative effects, instead of educating pet owners on responsible pet management.
North American vets push early spay/neuter - I have friends who loved their vet clinic but were informed that if they didn't alter their dog by 6months, they were no longer welcome as clients






















Another friend purchased a lab from a breeder who included in the contract that the dog would not be spayed until 11-12 months, at every puppy appointment, the clinic continued to push spay (_are we spaying her today_ - even though she was booked for vaccines - _let's book her in for a spay next week_ etc) despite the fact that the owner had clearly stated that his dog would not be spayed prior to 11 months as per their contract!

As with any surgical procedure there is an element of risk, most pets come through alters just fine, a few do not - when it's your dog/cat in _the few_, the numbers seem alot more significant.

So don't let anyone make this decision for you or push you in one direction or the other - she <u>your</u> Sam, <u>you</u> get to decide.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Surgical neutering dramatically alters the biochemical profile


Citation please? 

Here's the thing about "natural" - Nature has designed us all to reproduce. Natural selection is driven by whatever traits allow maximum reproduction and survival of the offspring to reproduce themselves. It's called survival of the "fittest" but "fitness" refers to reproductive capacity, not actual health - health is only relevant in as much as it affects reproductive capacity. There is NO evolutionary advantage to living past reproductive age, and living into old age confers no "fitness". It's not a trait evolution favors because there's no way for natural selection to act on it. 

So, while being unspayed (and having puppies) is "natural", it doesn't then follow that being unspayed is "healthier." Those are two totally different things when you're talking about a senior animal which is when a lot of the health problems we're talking about occur. 

I totally agree about making your own decision, it's just important to do so based on facts and scientific evidence.


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## sam the sheperd (Jan 11, 2009)

Yowsers!

I have always been leaning a little to letting her mature, you know doing the normal dog thing.

I knew coming in to the topic that there are very opinionated peeps in both camps. That is good. It is also good that others chime in, after all it's the 'net.

So playing devil's advocate here, other than the increase in breast cancer, what else would I be in for? How crazy do they get when in heat, etc.

Oh yeah --->


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Depends on the dog. Some dogs you barely notice it, other than the drips, and a few dogs don't even drip much, still others it's like a gory horror flick. 

Behaviorally, some dogs become very moody, some act depressed, some get a wanderlust, some seem completely fine. It really varies.

If you go that route, keep your eye out for pyometra which is an infection of the uterus and is potentially life threatening if not caught and treated.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I started this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1068251&page=1#Post1068251 to ask about heat. 

I have worked with a lot of spayed females (women). It did not effect their performance.







Sorry! I've been dying to say that. It did seem like a lot of teachers I worked with had to have surgical procedures removing reproductive organs-and all were great teachers, lots of drive, and could still catch kindergarteners trying to run away that first month of school...


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## sam the sheperd (Jan 11, 2009)

At what age does a German Shepherd reach physical and sexual maturity?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> I have worked with a lot of spayed females. It did not effect their performance.
> 
> ...


Good one!








But they were spayed before or after puberty/maturity?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Chama is now 14 years old. I had her spayed at 5.5 months old. She has had no health problem because of it and her drive (prey) kicked in like crazy at about 8 months, right on schedule. 

I spayed Massie at 6 months. She had tremendous drive throughout her life. I think I still have scars to prove it!


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

This link  contains an excellent summary of spay/neuter in dogs (seminar was gven in May 2007 so data for the referances would be current as of beginning 2006 or earlier, re the timeline for concluded research, paper written, submitted, peer reviewed, edited, finally published). 

If you scroll down to the section on mammary cancer, there is an " Odds ratio" of 0.26 given for 2 or more estrus cycles - this is a statistical term that is NOT meant to be read as 26 percent.

An interesting article should your dog be diagnosed with mammary cancer 
Influence of Host Factors on Survival in Dogs with Malignant Mammary Gland Tumors
Jeffrey C. Philibert 1 , 3 , 4 , Paul W. Snyder 2 , Nita Glickman 2 , Larry T. Glickman 2 , Deborah W. Knapp 1 David J. Waters 1 

Some article lists for surgical alters:
http://www.mmilani.com/spay-neuter-references.html
http://slushpuppy.50webs.com/references.htm

Most current articles require a subscription to read/download so you can check with your vet (I would hope every vet would at least have subscriptions to veterinary journals) or college, university, & municipal libraries.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Grace was spayed at 5 months (before I got her) and has drive through the roof. She was one of the driviest dogs on our SAR team. Jury's still out on her longevity - hoping for 25 years at least! But she's 9 years old now, never had any ortho issues or injuries and can still hike 10 miles or so over rough terrain without issue. Knocking on wood for that to continue! 

I think the drive question is an interesting one though. It came up on another one of these threads and people on both sides offered anecdotal evidence, but there didn't seem to be much in the way of actual scientific studies. A couple people alluded to some vaguely but were never able to produce any citations or evidence. 

I wish someone _would_ study it because that's an issue that could really have bearing on a lot of these decisions when we're talking about working dogs.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:This link contains an excellent summary of spay/neuter in dogs (seminar was gven in May 2007 so data for the referances would be current as of beginning 2006 or earlier, re the timeline for concluded research, paper written, submitted, peer reviewed, edited, finally published).


And if you read that article, in spite of the fact that it's written by a woman who is in general opposed to S/N, she still concludes that the health evidence for spaying/not spaying is equivocal and complicated and makes a pretty good case for spaying before the first heat. 



> Quote:If you scroll down to the section on mammary cancer, there is an " Odds ratio" of 0.26 given for 2 or more estrus cycles


From: http://www.acvs.org/AnimalOwners/HealthConditions/SmallAnimalTopics/MammaryTumorsinCatsandDogs/


> Quote:Mammary tumors can be prevented by spaying before 6 months of age. The risk of developing a mammary tumor is 0.5% in dogs spayed before 6 months of age (or their first heat) compared to 26% (and up to 71% in some reports) if spayed after 2 years of age. Cats spayed before 6 months of age have a 7-times reduced risk of developing mammary cancer and spaying at any age reduces the risk of mammary tumors by 40% to 60% in cats.


This is supported in the lit. I'll try to find some citations that are open access. 

The lifetime risk is actually quite hight and waiting even one heat cycle sends it up dramatically - far more than waiting reduces the risk of other, even less common cancers.







People seem to be applying two different standard of logic to make the case that not spaying is healthier and it doesn't work. 

Again - there really are pros and cons on both sides but you've got to do the legwork to make an informed decision.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote:Citation please?


sorry no specific citation - it's basic biochemistry, textbook & journals articles ... (OK maybe that should read as _basic_ biochemistry if you're a biochemist







): 

strictly as an example (since I hate google on a non-university system)
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=&...j=bio&hl=en&lr=

I guess you don't subscribe to the views on evolution that "fitness" may be completely temporal & a reflection of "right place/right time" ie Lamarck did not write what was for many years considered to be "Lamarck's theory", Mendel _cheated_ when he counted etc ... 








Sorry Sam's dad this is getting waaay off topic


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If by basic biochemistry and altered blood profiles you mean they have reduced levels of circulating hormones then yeah, of course they do. But if you mean it alters other blood profile factors like WBC or etc, then we need a citation. 



> Quote:strictly as an example (since I hate google on a non-university system)
> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=&...j=bio&hl=en&lr=


Did you read this carefully?







Because their conclusion was that removing just the ovaries is faster than removing both the ovaries and uterus and they didn't find any differences in outcome. It's NOT saying that dogs who kept uterus were any healthier, it's saying there was no difference so why not go with the easier procedure? In either case the ovaries and therefore the hormones were removed, so it doesn't confer whatever benefits there are (if any) to "normal" hormone function. And I guess my answer to the "why not do what's easier and quicker?" question would be that a complete ovariohysterectomy is still not a prolonged procedure if done by a competent surgeon and since the uterus is giving no benefit by its presence and is allowing for the potential of future pyometra, I'd rather the vet spent the extra 5 minutes and got it out too. 



> Quote:I guess you don't subscribe to the views on evolution that "fitness" may be completely temporal & a reflection of "right place/right time" ie Lamarck did not write what was for many years considered to be "Lamarck's theory", Mendel cheated when he counted etc ...


If you understand the basic concept of natural selection, then you understand that it depends exclusively on reproduction - there is no way for a trait that is only beneficial post-reproduction to be favored.


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## sam the sheperd (Jan 11, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Alto
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was reading your post and then it got to the _basic_ biochemistry part and then I started to daydream about swimming pools, then I finished it up.









I have had to make some tough decisions in regards Sam's well being and training. Though I haven't posted much, I certainly have read many of the topics in the past 7 months. Early on I had to come up with the "right" answer.

In regards to our dogs, the only right answer is the one that we can live with. I had to choices early on, so I went with one vet tech, who in turn has became our trainer and friend. I ask one simple question: " Is this what's best for my dog?"

She tells me what to do and I go with it. Suffice it to say, she recommends that I get her spayed before her first heat. I do not know why I am faltering on this choice. Perhaps because it involves a medical procedure, or maybe that there is haziness in regards to emperical data stating how it will affect, not any, not every, but MY dog.

Just fishin' in the dark son, just fishin' in the dark....

If anyone feels that copious amounts of cheap beer will help my decision making process, please let me know.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Unfortunately No beer won't make the decision easier but it's worth a try. This is something everyone is going to give a different opinion on.You have to find a person you trust and take their advice.I guess I was lucky I just did it.Being a woman I think it was easy to decide.If I could do it I probably would too.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: I ask one simple question: " Is this what's best for my dog?"


And that really is what it all boils down to. We all (hopefully) try to make the best possible decision for our beloved dog. 

If it helps any, while there is risk with any surgery, MrLeadFoot's experience was extremely unusual and almost certainly due to the medicines his clinic gave him not the procedure itself. If you go ahead with the spay, find out from your friend the tech what kind of anesthesia will be used and whether they use a breath monitor. Both these things will affect the safety of the procedure. The other thing is that the younger the dog and the fewer heats they've had, the quicker and easier the procedure because the organs are smaller and there's less blood flow. So if you're pretty sure you're going to spay at some point, purely from a surgical prospective, it's better to do it sooner rather than later.

Good luck with it all! And yes, beer might help - if not in the decision making, perhaps in the aftermath.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqIf you spay here before her first heat her lifetime risk of mammary cancer is close to zero. If you wait until she's 18months old or so (a recommendation I often see on this board), the risk goes up to something like 22%. For me, that's reason enough.


ive have even seen research indicationg the risk at 8% after the first heat and 25% fter the second heat. for me, these risks outweighed any other factors. i spayed kimba at 5 1/2 months and have no regrets.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Personally I think living with a bitch in heat in a pain in the butt. Despite this, I still like to wait until after their first heat to have them spayed.

I've never done a survey, don't know every one in the world who has had a bitch that came into season, but I know a lot of people who breed dogs and there doesn't seem to me to be an epidemic (i.e. 1 out of 4) of breast cancer in the older bitches who were allowed to come into heat. 

There are a lot of breeders on this fourm, it might make an interesting survey to see what their ratio of bitches who have gotten breast cancer versus those who never got it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I know of at least a few breeders on the board who have had mammary cancer in their bitches; one currently. The survey would be interesting but the problem generalizing the results is that there may be a protective effect in lactation that non-bred pets wouldn't have. No idea if that's the case in dogs or not but it's true in women. 

I see mammary tumors pretty regularly in older female dogs we pull from the shelter and most of those dogs do appear to have had pups, so clearly it's not completely protective, just not sure if it might change the rates.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I actually do agree 100% in that spaying doesn't affect drives at all. But, leaving health aside, since I've readed a lot of articles from both sides and I do think that it comes to a 50/50 in opinions (and I do have access to most of the veterinary and science magazines, I'm not talking of wikipedia), something that intrigues me, because I've heard many things, but very few real opinions is what people who do protection sport/jobs about if EARLY spaying affect the seriousness of a dog, which we are discussing in another thread.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, I am not a fan of spaying or neutering, but if your dog is a pet and you want her with you almost constantly, then you should probably have her spayed. 

I would wait until she is about three months past her first heat cycle -- that is just my opinion. By then she should be pretty well grown, and just over or just under a year old. Also everything will have shrunk back down to its proper size so to make the spay the safest. 

My thing is that you are not going to want to take your girl, just about everywhere in a diaper for three weeks or so. Not taking her out hiking or to dog parks or to PetsMart while in heat is a no-brainer, but taking her to your folks or to work, or to the hardware store or gastation becomes a pain too. And everyone will look at that cute blue denimn diaper and think you have lost your marbles. (Took one of mine to the vet that way once, but I don't care, my marbles have been missing for quite a while now.) 

Oh, and she WILL urninate with it on if she is OUTSIDE. So you have to take it off, and put it on, and it is an overall pain. So for three weeks, she is literally grounded.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Pupresq

Sorry I wasted your time reading the article in the above link- that was just a quick & dirty example of google search engine (that I barely glanced at for quality content







)

Is this the article abstract that you are responding to? (google link above just gives me a blank box) 

Examples of what I meant by biochemical effects of surgical alters:

Intuitive biochemistry
Basal and GnRH-induced secretion of FSH and LH in
anestrous versus ovariectomized bitches
link 

Less intuitive biochemistry
Protein kinase C activation increases endothelial nitric oxide release in mesenteric arteries from orchidectomized rats 
link 

Neither article is meant as a citation for my statement that desexing has effects beyond the obvious (ie don't read them except for general interest) - there seems to be little research (available online) examing the biochemical effects of OVH/OE.
Orchidectomy research seems more popular???

The statistics you presented appear to originate in these articles (where does ACVS hide their referances???) - any chance you can track down a version to share?

Dorn CR, Taylor DO, Frye FL, Hibbard HH. <u>Survey of animal neoplasms in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties, California. I. Methodology and description of cases.</u> J Natl Cancer Inst 1968;40:295–305
Schneider R, Dorn CR, Taylor DO. <u>Factors influencing canine mammary cancer development and postsurgical survival.</u> J Natl Cancer Inst 1969;43:1249–61

Hmmmm not sure I agree that Laura Sanborn is opposed to S/N (based on that online article ) she just presented a literature review that I think is easily read by the average person.




> Quote:If you understand the basic concept of natural selection, then you understand that it depends exclusively on reproduction - there is no way for a trait that is only beneficial post-reproduction to be favored.


Yes I do understand the _intuitive_ concept of evolution as determined by natural selection.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

The driviest dog I know was pediatricaly neutered (rescue) - his placement was restricted to a performance home so he's a fantastic dog, but this anecdote does nothing to support the <u>science</u> of early S/N effect on drive etc. 
Intuitively speaking, a dog that is more moderate in drive etc would be more likely to be <u>apparantly</u> affected by early S/N re concept of threshold biochemistry.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:Hmmmm not sure I agree that Laura Sanborn is opposed to S/N (based on that online article ) she just presented a literature review that I think is easily read by the average person.


No, that's just it. If you read the article it seems pretty balanced and she presents a lot of evidence in favor of spaying. To know more about her personal agendas you have to dig a bit deeper and find out what groups she's with and her other activities. 

Haven't had a chance to find an open access article with good mammary cancer stats but will check out the two you posted and look around some more. Last time we had this thread someone posted a good cancer in dogs site that (if I'm recalling correctly) had better citations than some.



> Quote: Yes I do understand the intuitive concept of evolution as determined by natural selection.










Not sure about the fixation on the word "intuitive" but reproduction is key to both Darwin and Lamark's (and Mendel's) theories about how traits are passed on. So, if you understand that, then you understand that for a trait to be favored it has to confer a benefit to the individual and that benefit can't be post-reproduction, because at that point it's irrelevant in terms of what gets passed on. Certainly a trait like that might be passed on randomly but it can never be favored or selected for. Make sense? 

What I've found pertaining to the current discussion is that people have an idea that what is "natural" must then mean what is "best" or "optimum" for the _individual_ and that's not necessarily the case. Nature isn't acting on individual wellbeing, it's acting on reproductive success (or lack thereof). A situation where what seems "intuitive" does not actually lead you to the reality.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:this anecdote does nothing to support the science of early S/N effect on drive etc.


No, you're right, and that's the problem. It appears we're limited to anecdotes and opinions because little research has been done on any of this relationship. Anecdotally, there are lots of drivy and successful altered working dogs, but that's not scientific. 



> Quote: Intuitively speaking, a dog that is more moderate in drive etc would be more likely to be apparantly affected by early S/N re concept of threshold biochemistry.


Assuming that altering lowers drive, then yes, a moderate drive dog might be more noticeably affected. But we have no reason to assume that because we don't have any evidence that altering lowers drive. Intuition is not science, and, as above, often leads you in quite the wrong direction. What we really need here is a double blind study.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> Assuming that altering lowers drive, then yes, a moderate drive dog might be more noticeably affected. But we have no reason to assume that because we don't have any evidence that altering lowers drive. Intuition is not science, and, as above, often leads you in quite the wrong direction. What we really need here is a double blind study.


I think it has more to do with activity levels. If you have a moderate to low drive dog and after spaying the general activity level drops, then what you see is a decreasing in drives, even when the drives itself are the same. If you have a high drive dog the effect of the lowered energy is less noticeable while training.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Do activity levels drop though? I hear people talk about that all the time but I've always wondered if a lot of people jump to that conclusion because they tend to spay at 6 months to a year, a time that most dogs do chill a bit just from maturity. A situation where correlation does not imply causation. Regardless of spaying and neutering, lots of dogs calm down at a year of age, and energy levels decrease with age and over time. It's still only anecdotal but when we do pediatric spay/neuters (with our group usually 10-12 weeks is the youngest), there's no observable energy decline. And since I like to leave it as late as possible with the pediatric surgeries, we sometimes end up doing litters a few puppies/kittens at a time. I've never noticed any difference in energy level between the altered and intact animals. 

Has there ever been a study that examines this? Especially one that has good controls rather than relying on surveys or owner reporting.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

_intuitive_ vs empirical
Something is intuitive if it follows apparant logic concepts, eg, enzyme lock & key model for substrates is great intuitive science but empirical evidence disproves this theory - wanna poison an enzyme, find/build a transition state analog & that enzyme may never work substrate again









re Laura Sanborn I've rather assumed that her seminar is essentially a presentation of the AVMA article but I've never printed out both & compared numbers/references ...


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: relying on surveys or owner reporting


This is a big issue I have with veterinary articles.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If those are the definitions you're using, then are you saying you don't understand the importance of reproduction in natural selection? Or you have an intuitive sense that is empirically incorrect?










Because a lot of this seems beside the point and like arm waving. Reproduction is both intuitively and empiracally integral to the concept of selection.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: This is a big issue I have with veterinary articles.


Me too. They're not all that way of course, but so many of them are especially anything to do with behavior.

Not that I really want them organizing huge lab experiments with labratory dogs but the way it's being done currently is riddled with potential confounds.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

not sure that I defined anything ... just stated that you need empirical evidence as intuitive assumptions may not be real (Enzyme-Substrate Lock & Key model is still being taught in high school science along with a load of other rubbish - my kid just hit grade 8 & I keep having to recuse myself from homework discussions).

I can agree with every word you wrote about reproduction & natural selection, but if what constitutes reproductive advantage changes rapidly & dramatically, is that still natural selection or does it become a catastrophic event? 



> Quote: Not that I really want them organizing huge lab experiments with labratory dogs


especially disheartening when the experiments have nothing to do with dogs.

Note at this point I can conclusively state that we have hijacked poor Sam's Dad's thread: profound apologies <hangs head in shame>


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

My personal advice would be if you are comfortable in your ability to manage her heat cycles without one resulting in an unintentional pregnancy, wait until she has reached physical and mental maturity (18-24 months old) and then spay her.

Especially if your goals are SchH/PPD. People say spaying/neutering affects drive level and in terms of general drive as it is commonly understood (prey drive) I don't believe that to be true. What early spaying/neutering CAN affect is the many other personality traits required to do good protection work (dominance, active aggression/fight drive, etc...) Spaying/neutering after maturity doesn't affect those things. Doing it before can. So whether it negatively impacts affects performance depends on the definition of performance. If that is protection work than yes, an early spay can be detrimental.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I can agree with every word you wrote about reproduction & natural selection, but if what constitutes reproductive advantage changes rapidly & dramatically, is that still natural selection or does it become a catastrophic event?


What consitutes a reproductive advantage can change dramatically, but again - this is all beside the point. What I'm trying to explain is that regardless of what trait is being favored (or selected against) it has to come into play during the reproductive lifespan of the organism for selection to act on it. Traits that don't show up until post reproduction - say, extreme longevity or low incidence of geriatric cancers, aren't reproductively advantageous and aren't going to be selected for. They can't. Clearer?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I haven't read through all the responses but here's mine:

I have had 3 females I got as pups. 1 was spayed after first heat (snuck up on me), 2 were spayed before first heat. They lived to be 15, 11 and the 14 yo is still here. No one had breast cancer. No one had a problem with their spay surgery. No one bred.

I think many of our problems of pet over population come from people who think that they can keep their female "safe" from suitors.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have always found this to be a very informative article that presents both sides of the spay/neuter debate. 

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerOh, and she WILL urninate with it on if she is OUTSIDE. So you have to take it off, and put it on, and it is an overall pain. So for three weeks, she is literally grounded.


 Not to say spay or not but I think the difficulty of managing the physiological part of heat (bleeding, putting diper on/off, moodiness) doesn't have to be a decision making factor. I don't find bleeding, changing dipers, walking on the leash even in the backyard and avoiding places 2 months in a year to be such an impossible or repulsive thing to do, it's just a part of life with your dog. If you decide to spay it has to be not about the convinience.

I did spay my female but I was bringing a male puppy home and I didn't believe I had the set up to separate them effectively during her seasons so that's why I decided to spay her after the second heat. If she had been a solid nerved female and working prospect I would let her mature, and would find a way to manage the situation.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I agree. Later is better for the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Having seven intact bitches, I have no problems whatsoever with managing heat cycles. When my girls are in heat, they are grounded. I do not want them in public places at this time. 

My post was specifically directed at someone with one canine who wanted her with him almost constantly. So if she is only to be a pet, and wanted to accompany him almost everywhere, then it makes sense to go ahead and spay. 

Face it, spays and neuters are ALL ABOUT CONVENIENCE. Anyone who cannot prevent an unwanted pregnancy is really a questionable candidate for owning a GSD in my opinion. Healthwise there are as many cons and pros if you look at it objectively. My personal favorite is neutering a dog to keep him from roaming. HELLO???? THAT is a CONTAINMENT issue. 

Ah well, personally, I do not think there is anything wrong with speutering a dog for convenience and to be less responsible, so long as it does not compramise the dog's health. Therefore I will not now consider it until the dog has reached at least 12 months, preferrably longer. 

The major inconvenience I experience with intact bitches is in training and titling them. They are really inconsiderate about when they go and decide to be in heat. It usually starts AFTER I have them signed up for something, and have paid for it.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I agree. Later is better for the dog.


That's highly debatable (and highly debated







).


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

In the end, do what's best for you and your dog. I've never had a female dog go through any "drastic" personality/activity/behavior changes after being spayed. 

What Mr. Leadfoot went through was more the result of medications given, not the procedure itself. It's scary, I was worried when Anna went in and yes, felt guilty as **** that night when she was doped up, but when she became her normal self the next day, I got over it. 

I chose to spay for the decreased risk of mammary cancer, something I'd like to avoid if I can help in anyway, and because I didn't want to mess with the heat itself/suitors/etc. We do a lot of visiting/travel with our pups and the last thing I'd hate to have is a dog in heat to have to take care of or change plans for--it's not fair to any of us. 

Good luck! You'll make the best choice for you and Sam! I'll drink of glass of wine and if anything else comes to mind, I'll post it.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

OP:

As far as changes in drive are concerned, so far, I see none, although it is probably too early to tell. As far as mental maturity is concerned, prior to spaying my dear girl, I asked many, MANY people I see during the course of my day, both as a trainer and an owner who frequents all kinds of pulbic parks, and dog parks, to ME, it seems that almost ALL females I have encountered have been spayed.

Scientific or not (NOT), what I did notice was that MOST dogs are spastics around other dogs and act like immature beings. But, mine is not, and was not prior to her spay. Not sure if it's the solid training she's been receiving from me or not, but it sure was enlightening to me to discover that ALL the "immature" dogs' owners I was able to ask all answered that their dogs were spayed before their first heats, and in fact were spayed quite early. To clarify, to me, "early" means before mental maturity, on average 6-7 months and earlier. And, in my eyes, it sure LOOKS like spaying early indeed may have an effect on mental maturity.

The reason I think this is because I compared what I was seeing in these dogs to all my previous dog, which are many including 3 GSDs, who were not altered, and none of them acted like spastics once they left puppyhood behind.

While posting something like this is probably unclear as to what I mean, I'm talking about the type of behavior exhibited by these dogs that were presumed (by me only) to have been spayed early. For example, these dogs tend to play like puppies and generally act like puppies even when they're mature adults at 7 years old!

FWIW, I am really against spay/neuter, because of the "nature" thing. Sure, reduced chances of health issues by having the procedure done are obviously a plus, but then again, who am I to play God? The ONLY reason I spayed was convenience and that does not sit well with me, and I hope I get over it. My circumstances may be different than the OP's, in that I am married to someone who does not have a whole lot of experience with dogs, let alone a GSD, and two children, 12 and 9. Although my dog is being trained by me much like a working dog is, she is first and foremost a family pet.

As such, I did not want to burden the rest of my family with ensuring she's prevented from an unwanted pregancy, because if it happened when I was not around, that could cause severe strife in my family unit, which is not something I would want to endure, does that make sense?

Back to the maturity thing, I do not mean to imply that all dogs mature at the same rate, either, just like humans don't. I really wanted to wait until after the first heat, or at least until she hit the one year mark (if I was going to do it at all, because she comes from a killer line and the breeder wanted me to breed back with her, which I was considering), but we're going on a vacation to Disneyland at the end of this month. Although we're planning on taking the dog, we could have someone sit her, BUT, with my luck, being that she would be 11 months then, odds are high that she could go into heat during our vacation. So, whether she comes or stays home, if she hit her heat in either situation, it would ruin our vacation. Suffice it to say, I feel extremely guilt-ridden because the spay was done for convenience.

But, what really pushed me over the fence was that my dog acts very responsibly (if you can understand what I mean), and seems very mature already, so I went ahead with the procedure earlier than I was previously considering. I pray everyday that I didn't make a mistake, and that she will still reach the "normal" level of mental maturity she would have reached if intact, even if it might take longer now. The reason I think she will still mature to a normal level of maturity is because I believe that as long as she was already showing signs of maturity, she will continue to mature. Why? Because I believe that the ovaries are NOT the only organs that produce female hormones. I believe that the pituitary gland does as well (and possibly others, but I am not an expert on canine biology), albeit it probably does not take over where the missing ovaries leave off. The reason I think this is because I know women who have been "spayed", and they didn't start growing facial hair, or experience changes in bone structure, etc. They still look and act like women. Sure, there is the question of whether or not these women were spayed before full maturity, but I'm not going to ask!

What I DO wholeheartedly believe is that if a dog is spayed too early, it may be possible that their systems may not be developed enough to produce enough of the missing hormones that result from a spay, hence the reports (and things I see everyday) of such dogs maintaining "puppy-like behaviors" for the rest of their lives.

As far as my dog is concerned, I've always believed that this particular dog would make and outstanding PPD, and still believe she will, as I see no changes as of yet in anything about her physically or mentally since her spay. But, like I said, it's still early. I'm not sure if the outstanding genetics she so obviously displays offsets any negative effects of the spay, but it sure does not look like that's happening, because I know my dog well. FWIW, this particular dog seems to do EVERY SINGLE THING I've asked of her thus far extremely well. I mean obedience has been a snap, and even her first shot at an agility course was so easy for her, I wondered if she was bored. She's an outstanding Frisbee dog and has been since she's been 7 months, has shown great confidence, aloofness, and has been highly social since day one. She even exhibits traits I see that if I nuture, would result in a good tracker, as well as protector. And none of this seems affected.

The meds: I've saved the best for last. I highly advise you grill your vet about everything, prior to even making your decision. If they act nonchalant about ANYTHING you have concerns about, I would move on to someone else, and then keep moving until you find someone who understands EXACTLY where you're coming from.

I will also add that if it wasn't for the experienced people who jumped in to help me assess what was going, I believe something very bad would have happened to my dog.

To those that did come to my rescue, thank you, because I never even thought the meds could have had such a detrimental effect, and I shudder to think what might have happened if I did NOT stop administering it when you guys said to, and if something bad had happened because of that, I know it would have changed my life forever, because I would have blamed myself forever, because I played God.

Hope this helps the OP.


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