# good dogs...gone BAD



## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

this is a question of mine that was remained unanswered. I never posted it one these forums and thought id see what info i would get. I always wonder, why dog a good, obedient, socialized dog suddenly snap, or become aggressive? Is there a true scientific answer to this question?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They don't.
Owners thought they were being "good" but in reality owners are in denial and miss important signs of impending problems.

90% of owners (just made up that statistic but I doubt I'm far off!!!) can't read dog body language at all.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Actually it does happen. Medical Causes of Aggression In Dogs - Page 1


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah, fine. _Rarely_ it might happen. 
But more often people miss symptoms made up of body language. 
People would like to believe their dog is sick but usually it's just been giving off "leave me alone - I'm uncomfortable" signals that are being missed. 
It's really doing dogs and owners a disservice to chalk it all up to health issues. 

More people need to be aware dogs not only have a language all their own but are expert body language readers themselves, and they feed off people and their own issues. People ought to stop making excuses for their dogs aggression, too. 

Weak nerves and poor breeding play into it way wayyy more than does a brain tumor or some such.

Do you think this dog has a brain tumor? Seizures? Hydrocephalus?

Or did someone overlook and ignore the body language? Anyone who knows and can read the body language can see this coming from a mile away.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

BowWowMeow said:


> Actually it does happen. Medical Causes of Aggression In Dogs - Page 1





msvette2u said:


> Yeah, fine. _Rarely_ it might happen.


Not might happen - it does happen, and the possibility shouldn't be dismissed. That being said, medical problems are so difficult to detect.

Otherwise, I agree with msvette2u, that the vast majority of owners are unaware of the signals that dogs give off. 

I also think that some dogs are punished for showing their true feelings. Growls, snarls, air snaps etc are so punished that the dog stops showing they're uncomfortable or scared until they finally snap. Some owners think that dogs should put up with anything. 
________
Sue


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Please stop putting words in my mouth (or anyone else's mouth, for that matter). 

I said, "Actually it does happen." I did not say that all instances of aggression are due to medical issues. In fact, I have never seen anyone on this board say that. What I have seen many experience, level-headed people say is that in cases of sudden and severe aggression, medical issues should always be ruled out first. 

And hypothyroidism should be at the top of your list because it is much more common than any of the other conditions you mentioned.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Untamed and Uncut: Attack Dog Bites Reporter - YouTube


I can't hear what's being said as I have no sound on my computer but that video is so worrying. 

1. This is a trained Police dog - so you should be able to assume he has solid nerves.

2. The handlers inability to read his own dogs body language

3. The fact that he is holding the leash so short - giving a signal to his dog that he's nervous. 
_________
Sue


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm not sure if holding a leash short gives a dog a signal
that the handler is nervous. my favorite leash is a
12" leash. when a dog is in training how many times
do you have to shorten the leash for control?



jakes mom said:


> I can't hear what's being said as I have no sound on my computer but that video is so worrying.
> 
> 1. This is a trained Police dog - so you should be able to assume he has solid nerves.
> 
> ...


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Why do dogs snap and become aggresive?? Probably the same answer as to why to some "normal" people snap and go nuts?? Who knows!! But, in retrospect, I bet there were signs of impending doom that went unheeded!


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

this is a scary question. i think it's hard to determine why good dogs suddenly snap. sometimes tumors in the brain can cause it...but in the end, we'll never know :'-(


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

And Rage Syndrome in Cockers and Springers. Strange stuff!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah, fine. _Rarely_ it might happen.
> But more often people miss symptoms made up of body language.
> People would like to believe their dog is sick but usually it's just been giving off "leave me alone - I'm uncomfortable" signals that are being missed.
> It's really doing dogs and owners a disservice to chalk it all up to health issues.
> ...


That dog clearly said "back off, I'm not comfortable". 
I also blame the Police officer. As soon as that reporter grabbed his dog with both hands, and started repositioning himself over that dog, he should have issued an immediate warning to back off.
At the end of the video, he talks about being the pack leader, and how the dog will protect the pack leader, well then IMO, he should have seen this coming.

I spent Saturday afternoon at my 8 year old's soccer game with my Kira. She stayed on the sideline of the game, and must've had a dozen little children walk over and attempt to pet, grab, hug and whatever you can think of. As much as I trust Kira, I stopped each and every child in their tracks, and allowed them to greet my dog, my way.
Needless to say, it was a great day for everyone.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

I spent Saturday afternoon at my 8 year old's soccer game with my Kira. She stayed on the sideline of the game said:


> this is awesome! i always tell children 'no' if they want to pet my pups. what was your way of having the children greet Kira?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I must be the world's biggest cynic - while I was watching the video, I was fascinated by both men's stupidity, and right before the dog lunges I was actually laughing. I think I even said, "Whoa!!" outloud when the dog actually bit the guy. I just can't imagine grown men behaving this way, and I just can't get it through my head that it isn't a set-up. Reminds me of that show A__hole where they'll do anything to get a laugh, regardless of how dumb or dangerous.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah, fine. _Rarely_ it might happen.


I personally know of 2 dogs that "snapped" due to medical reasons.

First one was a wonderful Lab. Friendly as can be. He chewed up some boards of his owners deck and within a week was a completely different dog. Totally out-of-control aggression. They ended up having to euthanize him and they necropsy found he had Arsenic poisoning. The deck boards he chewed were the treated type (this was many years ago when they were still available).

Second case was a Mastiff. Again, wonderful dog. Champion in the AKC ring and used as a therapy dog. His owner was at a show with him, sharing a hotel room with a close friend and her daughter. The dog knew the daughter since he was a puppy. One minute they were all sitting around watching tv, the next the Mastiff had rushed across the room and was attacking the daughter. Daughter ended up with many stitches and actually pleaded with the dogs owner not to euthanize him. They did and found a brain tumor during necropsy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

In 3 years of going to pick up dangerous dogs, there were no dogs I suspected remotely of having a brain tumor, or hypothyroidism, etc. There's other signs with thyroid issues. I've had a few dogs with that condition - and guess what? They were not aggressive!! They were lethargic, cold and had a poor hair coat, but aggression? Zilch.

I have seen the dozens and dozens of dogs I picked up have poor owners, irresponsible people and some, no owners at all (they moved). Left to their own devices these dogs began guarding the place where they lived.

I'd say poor ownership accounts for at least 90% of dog bites out there. The dogs are not ill. They have idiot owners who should not own a houseplant.



> stop putting words in my mouth


Not putting words, but you needed to add some words, then, if you didn't want anyone to comment that inability to read body language is a much more huge factor.

PS. That GSD doesn't look hypo to me either  
Can you agree poor handling led up to _that_ bite?? I won't comment on training because I never saw a vid on it - but _that_ bite could have been prevented easily.

Some hypothyroid dogs at this link. 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=-gXWT8_bCMnE2gXHm-2oDw



> At the end of the video, he talks about being the pack leader, and how the dog will protect the pack leader, well then IMO, he should have seen this coming.


Yeah I agree...maybe he was on auto-pilot, not sure. I know I hate interviews of any sort and tend to get 'stage fright' even on radio ones!

I do think health reasons are valid, but brain tumors are probably fairly rare. People need to also consider every day things like hip pain, spine pain, etc.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> But more often people miss symptoms made up of body language.
> People would like to believe their dog is sick but usually it's just been giving off "leave me alone - I'm uncomfortable" signals that are being missed.
> It's really doing dogs and owners a disservice to chalk it all up to health issues.


Does old age qualify as a health issue? I've heard of quite a few dogs (small & large breeds) that became aggressive as they entered old age.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I think the news guy was a complete doofus with dogs, clearly. The officer should have known better and the dog needed to have a more solid temperament. Both at fault, IMO.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I think the news guy was a complete doofus with dogs, clearly. The officer should have known better and the dog needed to have a more solid temperament. Both at fault, IMO.


I agree. What was with the patting on the head? Had he looked down, even an idiot could have seen that the dog didn't like it.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> In 3 years of going to pick up dangerous dogs, there were no dogs I suspected remotely of having a brain tumor, or hypothyroidism, etc.


You've dealt with 'dangerous' dogs? How so? Have you been able to rehabilitate most of them?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Kittilicious said:


> Does old age qualify as a health issue? I've heard of quite a few dogs (small & large breeds) that became aggressive as they entered old age.


I don't think that is typical behavior, no. I've seen them become more "testy", or less patient, but usually with rambunctious behavior from a puppy, or just the presence of kids.
I've seen too many seniors who were not aggressive to believe it's just that they grew older.
Pain can be factor I'm sure, though. If a dog suddenly becomes aggressive when it never was, a vet visit should be the 1st thing you do.

In fact any change in behavior should be cause to get to the vet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Zeeva said:


> You've dealt with 'dangerous' dogs? How so? Have you been able to rehabilitate most of them?


No. I worked for animal control and if the owner did not get the dog back (which involved either a $250 or a $500 fine) then we put the dog to sleep.
I can tell you most of them did not deserve to be put to sleep, most were in the wrong situation at the wrong time.
If there was someone around who witnessed the bite, or if the "bitee" or the owner was around I always asked what led up to the bite. 
It was never anything like a health issue - more like handling issues and containment issues.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My last boy was a therapy dog. When I first joined the group, I was very excited to participate in as many events as I could. Our first experience was in manning a booth at a "kid's day" event.

So here were are, kids running everywhere, hardly any adult supervision. The other therapy dog owners are having a great time, letting the kids climb on their dogs' backs. 

I was horrified, spent all of my time trying to teach the kids proper skills when approaching a dog. I left early, and never ever volunteered for any more events. 

It's not just the idiot owners. OP is going to become a dog trainer. OP needs to know to rule out the medical first, so she knows where to start.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I was horrified, spent all of my time trying to teach the kids proper skills when approaching a dog. I left early, and never ever volunteered for any more events.
> 
> It's not just the idiot owners. OP is going to become a dog trainer. OP needs to know to rule out the medical first, so she knows where to start.


Even if your dog had bitten a child it wouldn't be the child/parent's fault, it would still fall on the owner's shoulders because you should be able to read your dog well enough to avoid a bite.

If one of the therapy dogs in training was so uncomfortable that it bit a kid - then the owner should have clued in on that and taken the dog out. 

Good idea to rule out medical but in most situations, like the ones I worked in, you can look, and say, or see - "this led up to a bite", not "Gosh this dog bit out of the blue. That's why I always asked, "What led up to this bite"? If you could say "Oh kids were running all around, and while Rover's been fine with kids, he just up and bit one", you could further ask "Well, what was he doing before the bite, how was he acting", and you got "Oh he was licking his lips, ears were back, tail tucked", etc. then you know, the dog was uncomfortable and should have been removed from the scene.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I couldn't agree more!!!

But as we all know, most people don't watch their dogs like hawks. Also, there are a few dogs that, for whatever reason, don't display the typical pre-bite mannerisms. I can totally understand you being frustrated with people, since you work in rescue. It must get sickeningly redundant to hear owner-surrenders say that the unwanted behavior came "out of the blue", and now it's your problem.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Pretty much...well in my heart, I know well trained, well socialized dogs don't 'want' to bite, I have one who is fearful of clippers. He would bite to avoid having his nails clipped.
He always looks at me very sadly, like "please don't, mama, I don't want to hurt you". 

I think dogs who've bitten got past the sadness and since their "protector", their leader failed them (didn't read body language or pay attention at all) they feel they must bite from now on.

Some of the very most aggressive dogs I've gotten in rescue - those who would bite without hesitation - turned out to be some of the most submissive dogs when you broke through the fear in them to find the dog under it all.

To say people feel dogs are automatons without hormones and other body chemicals such as serotonin and epinephrine, without emotions or feelings - is putting it mildly.
People have preconceived notions on how dogs should act and if they don't behave or act that way, they are cast aside. Not talking about bites, but in general.

They fail to realize this dog is a living thing and may not always do the things expected of it, or may do more than they anticipated.

Generally speaking, a dog who has resorted to biting, warned and warned with it's body language (which other dogs often read perfectly so they are now confused as to why the human did not) that it was feeling uncomfortable, and they feel since all that failed it must now escalate to a bite.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

wow this topic had really exploded XD
The ones that really puzzle me though are the ones who are their owners best friend and then then one day start barking at them and growling and snapping when the owner never had done any physical harm. Would this be and example of a health issue, or is their a behavioral reasoning to it?

Whenever my dogis around anyone i keep a close eye on her body language and warn them when she becomes nervous and tell them to back off. Its incredable how many people dont watch their dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The ones that really puzzle me though are the ones who are their owners best friend and then then one day start barking at them and growling and snapping when the owner never had done any physical harm. Would this be and example of a health issue, or is their a behavioral reasoning to it?


This sounds like a health issue - while it's fine to rule those out w/a vet visit - but don't be fooled into thinking this person actually knows their dog and it's body language.

For instance, we'll say the person liked to hug and kiss their dog every night. Maybe the dog tolerated it, but you'd need to see this (to know if they liked it or not) - some dogs like it, or don't mind anyway. Other dogs don't care for it at all. 
And dogs have thresholds. After giving off a "please don't" for weeks on end or even longer, perhaps the moon set just right and they really got tired of it one night.
Or maybe their kid hugged/kissed the dog and while dog tolerated it from the adult, the child was not allowed such liberties. 
This is a very common bite scenario.
And the owner will tell you "BUT my dog likes being hugged/kissed!"


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I just want to say that I'm really crabby when I have a headache.

Just saying.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> This sounds like a health issue - while it's fine to rule those out w/a vet visit - but don't be fooled into thinking this person actually knows their dog and it's body language.
> 
> For instance, we'll say the person liked to hug and kiss their dog every night. Maybe the dog tolerated it, but you'd need to see this (to know if they liked it or not) - some dogs like it, or don't mind anyway. Other dogs don't care for it at all.
> And dogs have thresholds. After giving off a "please don't" for weeks on end or even longer, perhaps the moon set just right and they really got tired of it one night.
> ...


 
Just to comment.....

There was an episode on Dog Whisperer with 2 GSD's. One was very dominant, and the other would submit at the slightest signal from the other.
Then (as Cesar put it), the submissive dog woke up one day (after 2 years of submitting!), and decided he had enough. He did some serious damage to the other dog.

I agree with you on this one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Anthony8858 said:


> Just to comment.....
> 
> There was an episode on Dog Whisperer with 2 GSD's. One was very dominant, and the other would submit at the slightest signal from the other.
> Then (as Cesar put it), the submissive dog woke up one day (after 2 years of submitting!), and decided he had enough. He did some serious damage to the other dog.
> ...


People will often want to adopt a new dog after the senior one passes. They'll say "oh my current dog is submissive with other dogs" because they cannot fathom that these relationships are fluid and non-static and especially it's going to change when the "dominant" one passes. 

Or they think that because their dog is so friendly at the dog park, it will naturally love to have a k9 sibling. I tell them, "yes your dog is friendly but guess what, it never had another dog living in it's own house!" Playing at the park and being happy and living in your home where suddenly mom and dad's attention is divided are two vastly different things.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

> I'd say poor ownership accounts for at least 90% of dog bites out there. The dogs are not ill. They have idiot owners who should not own a houseplant.


I agree that the majority of owners don't have the knowledge to 'read' dogs - I wouldn't say they are idiots though, some of the signals are very subtle. I would imagine members of this site would miss a lot of them. 



msvette2u said:


> In 3 years of going to pick up dangerous dogs, there were no dogs I suspected remotely of having a brain tumor, or hypothyroidism, etc. There's other signs with thyroid issues. I've had a few dogs with that condition - and guess what? They were not aggressive!! They were lethargic, cold and had a poor hair coat, but aggression? Zilch.
> 
> PS. That GSD doesn't look hypo to me either
> Can you agree poor handling led up to _that_ bite?? I won't comment on training because I never saw a vid on it - but _that_ bite could have been prevented easily.


Sorry, but it's difficult not to take this personally (please don't take that as an accusation) - as I have an aggressive dog - due to seizures. 

Hypothyroidism should not be so easily dismissed - this is a section of a
report done by Dr dodds. 



> The typical history starts out with a quite, well-mannered and sweet-natured puppy or young adult dog. The animal was outgoing, attended training classes for obedience, working, or dog show events, and came from a reputable breeder whose kennel has had no prior history of producing animals with behavioral problems. At the onset of puberty or thereafter, however, sudden changes in personality are observed. Typical signs can be incessant whining, nervousness, schizoid behavior, fear in the presence of strangers, hyperventilating and undue sweating, disorientation, and failure to be attentive (canine cognitive dysfunction).
> These changes can progress to sudden unprovoked aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations with other animals, people and especially with children.
> 
> In adult dogs, moodiness, erratic temperament, periods of hyperactivity, lack of concentration, depression, mental dullness, lethargy, malaise, fearfulness and phobias, anxiety, submissiveness, passivity, compulsiveness, and irritability may be observed. After the episodes, most of the animals behave as though they were coming out of a trance like state, and are unaware of their previous behavior.
> ...


This is the link to the full report.
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/Dr-Dodds-Thyroiditis-2006.pdf




minerva_deluthe said:


> I think the news guy was a complete doofus with dogs, clearly. The officer should have known better and the dog needed to have a more solid temperament. Both at fault, IMO.


I don't blame the reporter at all - I think the majority of dog owners don't understand dog's body language, so its doubtful the reporter would. It's reasonable to expect a police dog and handler to be reliable.
__________
Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I am not denying illness could play a role. 

What I'm trying to say is that people usually overlook behavior symptoms long before a bite occurs. 



> At the onset of puberty or thereafter, however, sudden changes in personality are observed. Typical signs can be incessant whining, nervousness, schizoid behavior, fear in the presence of strangers, hyperventilating and undue sweating, disorientation, and failure to be attentive (canine cognitive dysfunction).
> These changes can progress to sudden unprovoked aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations with other animals, people and especially with children.


Any change in personality or behavior warrants a vet visit, I think I said that?
But what's "unprovoked"?
Dr. Dodds article above only serves to prove there were vast behavioral and personality changes!

If people ignore that, then yes aggression may occur but again, it's on the owner to pay attention and know "normal" from "not normal". If your dog starts acting weird, get it to the vet!


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Just to comment.....
> 
> There was an episode on Dog Whisperer with 2 GSD's. One was very dominant, and the other would submit at the slightest signal from the other.
> Then (as Cesar put it), the submissive dog woke up one day (after 2 years of submitting!), and decided he had enough. He did some serious damage to the other dog.
> ...


Theer was another one that made this question arise:





 
its actually kinda scared me to be honest, i dont want this to happen to my dog. Though i do not agree on cesars training methods, and his theory on dog psychology (using dominence and submissiveness do explain every behavior) i found this and it kinda scared me. I dont want this to happen with my gsd. I dont find cesars explaination very valid, or scientific for that matter.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> People will often want to adopt a new dog after the senior one passes. They'll say "oh my current dog is submissive with other dogs" because they cannot fathom that these relationships are fluid and non-static and especially it's going to change when the "dominant" one passes.
> 
> Or they think that because their dog is so friendly at the dog park, it will naturally love to have a k9 sibling. I tell them, "yes your dog is friendly but guess what, it never had another dog living in it's own house!" Playing at the park and being happy and living in your home where suddenly mom and dad's attention is divided are two vastly different things.


 
Their actions are so unpredictable.

We al know about Kira's personality, so I won't elaborate..

There's a 2 year old WGSL female about a block away from me. She's a big girl, weighing about 85 pounds. She's passed my home a dozen times, and I've taken the opportunity to walk near her as much as possible. I feel this was a good approach to working with Kira's lack of trust towards larger dogs.

THEN (out of the clear blue, and after about a month of ignoring each other), they both turned to each other, went into a play bow, and decided to play. I was shocked at both Kira, and this other dog (who is rather aloof).
I took them both home, and let them play for a brief period in my yard. They ended up having the zoomies. It was a great experience for Kira.

I guess the moral here is that we really don't know what these dogs are thinking. Kira is very leery of larger dogs. We all know that.
I was very leery of that GSD, because she's the type of dog never to make eye contact, and always seems to be "out there".
Yet, there was a something that made Kira comfortable, and that other dog open up.

We as humans, spend a lot of time trying to understand canine language.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> its actually kinda scared me to be honest, i dont want this to happen to my dog.


I'm not understanding what you're saying. Do you mean you don't want the dog to take over the house?
Leadership skills - Mind Games, Nothing in Life is Free, will help immensely.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

That GSD is standing at the top of the stairs and growling because he can. He should have never been allowed to progress to that point. 
"Little things" should have been nipped in the bud, things like guarding a spot in the house, etc. 
Those things may have been occurring but people accept it for 'normal' and "just how dogs are".

Your mentality always should be "dog owns nothing, I own everything" including the food the dog eats and where it sleeps.



> We as humans, spend a lot of time trying to understand canine language.


No I don't think we do. Some of us do, but as a generalization people don't take the time to learn because they just don't care.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'm not understanding what you're saying. Do you mean you don't want the dog to take over the house?
> Leadership skills - Mind Games, Nothing in Life is Free, will help immensely.
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> ...




The way you said it, sounds much better


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We adopted out a dog to a couple in Seattle who already had a dog.
They emailed me one day to tell me the new dog attacked their dog "unprovoked".

I asked what exactly was transpiring when this all occurred? 
She was at the head of the stairs which led to the family room area. 
Their current dog wanted to go into the family room area so she blocked his way.
He tried to go through and she attacked him.

Was that unprovoked? 
Not really. In their eyes it was though. 
I had to explain that she didn't want him to get by so she made up the "rules", and he broke them, which provoked her!
BTW, both dogs were under 20lb. No blood was drawn, it just freaked them out. 

I helped them get a trainer on board, and with some of the Mind Games, etc. she is doing fine now in their home.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'm not understanding what you're saying. Do you mean you don't want the dog to take over the house?
> Leadership skills - Mind Games, Nothing in Life is Free, will help immensely.
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> ...


Im just afraid of my dog snapping for some reason, any reason. so i treat her with respect and with loveing leadership. I have always practiced these "mind games" and N.I.L.I.F, great way to practice mannors and obedience. Thank you for the link.

"I do not believe that dogs view human beings as if they were other dogs. However, I am convinced that when humans act in specific ways that dogs usually react in a predictable manner. A handler can use these specific reactions to modify a dog’s behavior--to help a fearful dog feel more confident and to influence an uncooperative dog into becoming more biddable."

I definately agree with this statement, it really bothers me when people try to be like dogs and practice methods wich can be harmful to both the handler and the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is my belief that a well trained, well socialized dog will not "just snap".
If there's a health issue, maybe it would, but even then I suspect you'd see little signs along the way.

It is critical to pay attention to warning signs, with both behavioral and health issues. Any time your dog acts "off", get it in to the vet.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It is my belief that a well trained, well socialized dog will not "just snap".
> If there's a health issue, maybe it would, but even then I suspect you'd see little signs along the way.
> 
> It is critical to pay attention to warning signs, with both behavioral and health issues. Any time your dog acts "off", get it in to the vet.


i believe the same, just all these cases where dogs snap just get me paranoid. Ive always been constantly socializing my dog and training her, so there is low risk of this ever happening.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> I can't hear what's being said as I have no sound on my computer but that video is so worrying.
> 
> 1. This is a trained Police dog - so you should be able to assume he has solid nerves.
> 
> ...


I've seen this video before. It's pretty obvious that the reporter should never have put his hands around the dog's neck, but then to lean over closer to the officer and tower over the dog is pretty much more than any dog should be expected to take. The dog is trained to protect the officer, was fairly new to the force and handler, and the reporter didn't really seem to be dog wise. There were a lot of things that went wrong there. The officer was smart enough to keep a control length of leash and also keep his other hand along side the dogs head for control. It could have been a lot worse but that being said should never have been allowed to happen to begin with. The officer didn't know the dog well enough to let the reporter get that close. You can see in the dog's eyes that it isn't comfortable.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I think a lot of the people who ask "why did my dog snap?" are so focused on overt "aggression" and completely miss signs of fear aggression. It's all fine and dandy to not have a super-dominant dog, but having one that is so unsure, with inconsistent leadership, is even worse and often isn't "thought of". Training Echo was a hurdle because he is VERY sensitive and had no confidence, and when I got him, neither did I. I practiced NILIF and there were strict rules and boundaries, but even in terms of handling and training, the more unsure I was, the more unsure he was. I fear to think how he would have ended up had I not moved next door to a k9 training facility who, most importantly, gave me the confidence I needed. It had nothing to do with fearing the dog-- I am by nature a very timid person-- and I almost think that's worse. Being so inexperienced, I would never have seen the signs of anxiety and I would never have thought that my own meekness was going to be a problem for him. I thought, "he's got rules, so what else is there?" There's the fact that if you don't have a dog who is by nature very confident, you're going to have a dog who's unsure in certain scenarios and may feel "forced" to take charge. I think a lot of people feel like their dogs (and their personalities) exist independently of us, but in many ways it's not true.


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> There's the fact that if you don't have a dog who is by nature very confident, you're going to have a dog who's unsure in certain scenarios and may feel "forced" to take charge.


im a bit confused about this statement please do explain, i always hear the opposite but i want to hear from somone who has had experience with this, like you.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

maureen_mickel said:


> im a bit confused about this statement please do explain, i always hear the opposite but i want to hear from somone who has had experience with this, like you.


Yeesh.. I wasn't articulate with that at all..sorry! Anyways, as my trainer explained it to me, if a dog doesn't have consistent leadership (i.e. me), that they may feel that they're supposed to be the big dog-- even though they don't have the personality to do so. He explained it as confidence not being about BEING the 'big dog' so much as about being comfortable with the fact that they don't HAVE to be. They are confident that they are safe, and don't need to be in charge-- some dogs (i.e. more submissive types) don't want to be, and the lack of leadership can make them anxious. Did that help? 

I hate anthropomorphising, but for me, I'm NOT a take-charge, take-no-BS type person, so being in a position of authority is a huge anxiety inducer for me. I may act harshly/lash out because I'm overwhelmed, or because I think that's what I need to do to get respect. 

I'm really bad at explaining this... "stronger" dogs need leadership to be told that they are NOT the big dog... "softer" dogs need leadership to be told that they do not NEED to be the big dog. After he's explained that to me, I've noticed it a lot with others-- people I know with dogs who are very soft, but become aggressive towards strangers, etc. They go "oh, someone's supposed to be in charge here but it doesn't seem to be my person, so maybe it's supposed to be me, but I don't really know how and I don't know what that means so I'm going to be defensive." It seems to manifest itself much differently than dogs who are stronger and behaving that way simply because they can. 

Of course, that's just how it was explained to me and could be totally inaccurate, but makes a lot of sense to me as someone with a sensitive dog (and is a sensitive handler).


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

LoveEcho said:


> Yeesh.. I wasn't articulate with that at all..sorry! Anyways, as my trainer explained it to me, if a dog doesn't have consistent leadership (i.e. me), that they may feel that they're supposed to be the big dog-- even though they don't have the personality to do so. He explained it as confidence not being about BEING the 'big dog' so much as about being comfortable with the fact that they don't HAVE to be. They are confident that they are safe, and don't need to be in charge-- some dogs (i.e. more submissive types) don't want to be, and the lack of leadership can make them anxious. Did that help?
> 
> I hate anthropomorphising, but for me, I'm NOT a take-charge, take-no-BS type person, so being in a position of authority is a huge anxiety inducer for me. I may act harshly/lash out because I'm overwhelmed, or because I think that's what I need to do to get respect.
> 
> ...


Ok! Now i gotcha! Ya i dont like anthropomorphising, thats why i use strictly no dominence methods, and positive reinforcement with some N.I.L.I.F. No matter what methods anyone uses, a dog needs a strong and loving leader.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> a dog needs a strong and loving leader.


:thumbup:


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

My trainer put it very simply. My dog needs to learn that I am responsible for him, not that he is responsible for me.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Zookeep said:


> My trainer put it very simply. My dog needs to learn that I am responsible for him, not that he is responsible for me.


Thank you for summing up what I was trying to say in 18 words. I think coffee is not my friend...


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