# e-collar advice



## B&Cgetapup (Nov 7, 2013)

I've been considering an e-collar for my dog and had a couple questions. Are these meant to be used forever or can you use it to train and then basically wean the collar off? I don't want to have to keep him on it indefinitely but something has to change with his behavior. Also I was looking at the dogtra and it seemed like a good one but are there any better recommendations?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Dogtra is a good collar, but what is it you're trying to change?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

IMO, it's not the tool for basic training.

I have dogtra e-collars and it's a good brand.

but please learn more about it's use in training.

some good info is on Home


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## B&Cgetapup (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks for that link, I'll read through that when I get home tomorrow. I'm trying to get him to listen outside. In the house he is pretty good, but outside if there are any other people or other animals in eyesight he doesn't listen to anything, doesn't matter if I have a treat or a toy he acts like I don't even exist. But within about the last 6 months or so he has started barking and growling at every single person or dog including people he used to love playing with. I don't think he would bite but at the same time I'm not going to take the chance so I want to do something to grab his attention no matter what is going on.

I was looking at the dogtra field star 1900ncp and thought that looked pretty good. Is there much of a difference between the 1900 models other than range and the price?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

what are you currently using? an e collar isn't necessasarily a harsher correction. seems like learning the proper use and timing with a prong collar would suit your situation just fine. also, you'll need to gradually build off of the environment where you get good results regardless of what tool you're using. it's not fair to go from a quiet living room to a park that's busy with people, dogs, sounds, smells etc.

get results in your backyard, then front yard, then front yard with people across the street etc and increase your rates of reinforcement whether it's food, toy, verbal, etc - don't give him the opportunity to engage with anything else besides you. sounds like a dog who is a distracted or easily stimulated type, combined with a handler who's gotta work on how to better motivate and engage him... and he has not yet learned how to generalize the behaviors you're teaching him.

I say all this because I don't want you to be disappointed with the e collar results. they aren't magic.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

B&Cgetapup,
MY advice would be a couple of sessions with an obedience trainer. Going to an E collar to correct a dog for untrained behaviors is a bad idea, IMHO. There are a lot of steps I would take in training before going to an E collar. You do not need an E collar to teach a recall and using an E collar for barking and aggressive behavior can be disastrous. 

E collars used incorrectly are absolutely a harsher correction than other types of corrections. The reason that E collars can be an extremely harsh correction is that all it takes is pushing a button to correct. For a novice that lacks technique, or in some cases the strength or physical ability, most dogs do not get overly harsh corrections with a leash and collar. Coupled with the fact that most people will feel bad if they really wind up and snatch the daylights out of their dog with a leash. The E collar can correct harshly with out any strength or technique, just hold the button down and "voila." An E collar makes it very easy to give harsh corrections, even for those that are physically or even emotionally incapable with a leash and collar. Pushing a button is certainly easier and less personal, especially at a distance then actually physically correcting a dog. 

I am certainly not against E collars, I've been using them for years. I use one regularly. I would just caution against buying an E collar with out having some one experienced to work with. I am also not a fan of the methods that teach a "dog to turn the collar off." I am not fond of methods that use an E collar with adverse stimulus to teach a dog to sit, down or come when called and turning off the stimulus when the dog performs. I do not like teaching behaviors with corrections, and some E collar people do just that. 

B&C, I think you need some basic obedience, teach the dog engagement and impulse control. I really do not think an E collar is the answer at this point. 

JMO FWIW


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ Slam certainly brings up some considerations I had not thought of, such as handler capability and presents the information much better than myself. by saying "not necessarily" and him pointing out incorrect e collar use is what I was eluding to. it's not as simple as cranking the thing up to 100 because your dog won't listen when it hasn't been appropriately taught to listen under the given circumstances.

another vote here to work with a trainer... a couple sessions with another set of eyes and feedback should give you some clarity and direction of what you're trying to accomplish.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its already been covered, but in different terms where I think you may not get what you want is because of the impersonal correction of an ecollar vs the direct link of the leash to you. When Jim mentions known commands, my thinking in your case is he doesn't really know what you think he does. Even though you go through an intro period with the electric, when he's reacting to things he isn't thinking about what you're saying and now you end up with him possibly associating the stim with something completely unrelated to not listening. 

Right now the way he ignores you or blows off what you want to reward him with is easier to work on with a leash and some distance from those things that are distracting or bothering him, basically what Fodder pointed out. Making things clear is the key to training him, and a lot of the time it can be easier to confuse with the e.


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## B&Cgetapup (Nov 7, 2013)

We did 6 sessions with an obediance trainer last year and while I think it helped especially with teaching him the commands it didn't seem to do anything with impulse control. I'm also not sure how great of a trainer she really was, but I'm not a professional dog trainer so I don't know. I found a really reputable trainer that only works with gsd's that I would love to go to but they are about 3 hours away which doesn't work with our school and work schedules at the moment. We live in an apartment right now so going outside we don't have a secluded back yard, it's just immediately into a common yard that people are always walking by. We've been looking for a house for a few months now and still haven't found anything that works for us so until that happens we just have to deal with the situation we are in.

A neighbor I just met yesterday is a retired k9 officer and he said to definitely get an e-collar and he would help me learn to use it and help with training Rommel good obedience (we started talking because I noticed his dog was incredibly obedient off leash). Just talking to him it sounded like he knew his stuff and he was the first person that hasn't been scared of Rommel right at the start so that was good.

As far as commands when we are at home Rommel will look out the window and bark at things but if we tell him to be quiet he will stop barking and just stare at whatever is outside. If we tell him to come or sit or lay down or stay in a spot he will do all of those wonderfully as well, just so long as we are in the house where there are no more distractions than normal. As far as I can tell he knows his commands and knows what they mean but maybe he is just responding to us talking to him and not to a specific word. Someone with more experience can probably tell. This is also my first dog since being younger and my family had dogs so I'm sure I haven't done his training perfect and could have done more when he was younger. Now he is close to 3 years old and intact. Getting neutered in a couple months when my father comes down to visit.

Also I was reading that lou castle link and one the success stories for Roma it sounds quite a bit like how Rommel is so maybe he is just afraid. If it helps he is extremely afraid of plastic bags, vacuums, and anything gun shaped like nerf guns or water guns. Not sure why on the last one since we've never attacked him with a nerf gun but when I bought one and brought it home as soon as it was out of the box he completely freaked.

Sorry for the long post, just trying to cover as much as I could think of.

Oh and I just had a thought. What do you guys think about getting a muzzle so that he wasn't capable of biting someone and then letting the immediate neighbors come up and pet him so he can learn there is nothing to be afraid of and they aren't trying to hurt him? Would something like that work or would it just do more harm than good?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It sounds like he isn't getting much contact with dogs and people and is reacting. How tired does he get? How much exercise? Does he interact with dogs and people anymore? It can become self fulfilling. The more he reacts, the more you isolate him until he is isolated from everyone but your family all the time. Please don't use an e collar for this. My dog was leash reactive in some situations, both to people and dogs, so I arranged for us to have an escape route. I began working with him in open places where we had room to walk away from triggers. I leaned to post the signals. Before he reacted, I walked him away the other direction. I did that for several weeks and eventually he stopped reacting. We hired a private trainer to help us with it. It was expensive but it worked.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> B&Cgetapup,
> MY advice would be a couple of sessions with an obedience trainer. Going to an E collar to correct a dog for untrained behaviors is a bad idea, IMHO. There are a lot of steps I would take in training before going to an E collar. You do not need an E collar to teach a recall and using an E collar for barking and aggressive behavior can be disastrous.
> 
> E collars used incorrectly are absolutely a harsher correction than other types of corrections. The reason that E collars can be an extremely harsh correction is that all it takes is pushing a button to correct. For a novice that lacks technique, or in some cases the strength or physical ability, most dogs do not get overly harsh corrections with a leash and collar. Coupled with the fact that most people will feel bad if they really wind up and snatch the daylights out of their dog with a leash. The E collar can correct harshly with out any strength or technique, just hold the button down and "voila." An E collar makes it very easy to give harsh corrections, even for those that are physically or even emotionally incapable with a leash and collar. Pushing a button is certainly easier and less personal, especially at a distance then actually physically correcting a dog.
> ...


I've recently started using an e collar for off leash recall and leave it and feather it in to fine tune on leash obedience. This is my first GSD pup so I've got a lot to learn. You mentioned teaching impulse control. When my pup gets over stimulated by other ppl playing with a ball or when she gets to a training field, her brain seems to shut down and she becomes a wild child. Can you share any info or links on impulse control? My pup is 9 months old btw.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ausdland said:


> I've recently started using an e collar for off leash recall and leave it and feather it in to fine tune on leash obedience. This is my first GSD pup so I've got a lot to learn. You mentioned teaching impulse control. When my pup gets over stimulated by other ppl playing with a ball or when she gets to a training field, her brain seems to shut down and she becomes a wild child. Can you share any info or links on impulse control? My pup is 9 months old btw.



You need to get your pup focused on you. Your pup needs to learn that the world revolves around you and all the fun and good times comes from you. You need to train the focus and reward with a high value item. There are some good threads on this forum relating to "impulse control", focus and engagement. 

When I take my dogs to a field they won't even look at another dog or a person. To them, I am super exciting and fun.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ausdland,
Here is a good thread, worth reading:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/623562-eye-contact.html


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> You need to get your pup focused on you. Your pup needs to learn that the world revolves around you and all the fun and good times comes from you. You need to train the focus and reward with a high value item. There are some good threads on this forum relating to "impulse control", focus and engagement.
> 
> When I take my dogs to a field they won't even look at another dog or a person. To them, I am super exciting and fun.


Exactly what my trainer said. I didn't think I was dull..:frown2: For the most part I seem to be interesting to her and she always watches to see where I go, but when we're at a dog work environment or ppl are playing with a ball, she goes crazy nuts. That's only a good thing at a schutzhund field and very bad the rest of the time.
Thanks for the link

Sorry if this is OT OP


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## mistysms (Nov 19, 2014)

I use an e collar for my lab mix. I always used it as a safety net if he wasn't listening to me outside. I take him for long walks in the woods and we have lots of deer around. So with the e collar on and I saw a deer I would call him back to me and if he didn't come I would just beep it and he almost always came back. I have been using the e collar for 2 years now and haven't had to really "use" it for at least a year. I still put it on him at night and on our walks but never need it. That being sad my boyfriend's brother and sister-in-law asked to borrow it because they were having a lot of problems with their standard poodle. Well we are dog siting the poodle now and you can tell they abused the collar cuz she is scared of it. When she sees the remote in my hand she runs and when I let her outside with it on she won't leave the front door. Thats just proof that they can be used for good but also they can be abused big time.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ausdland said:


> Exactly what my trainer said. I didn't think I was dull..:frown2: For the most part I seem to be interesting to her and she always watches to see where I go, but when we're at a dog work environment or ppl are playing with a ball, she goes crazy nuts. That's only a good thing at a schutzhund field and very bad the rest of the time.
> Thanks for the link
> 
> Sorry if this is OT OP


Ahhh, most people don't think they are dull, their dogs may disagree. :grin2: I am actually pretty low key, except when working with my dogs. It doesn't take a lot to be more interesting than the world around you. A quicker step, a happy smile, a loose and relaxed upper body and being upbeat. The positive energy and body language automatically translates to the dog. A little pep in your step goes a long way. Remember, it's all about body language. 

What you need to do is channel all that energy of her going crazy into a behavior that you want. Control that drive and energy and you are set. Teach the dog how to get it's reward and channel that energy. :wink2:


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

mistysms said:


> I use an e collar for my lab mix. I always used it as a safety net if he wasn't listening to me outside. I take him for long walks in the woods and we have lots of deer around. So with the e collar on and I saw a deer I would call him back to me and if he didn't come I would just beep it and he almost always came back. I have been using the e collar for 2 years now and haven't had to really "use" it for at least a year. I still put it on him at night and on our walks but never need it. *That being sad my boyfriend's brother and sister-in-law asked to borrow it because they were having a lot of problems with their standard poodle. Well we are dog siting the poodle now and you can tell they abused the collar cuz she is scared of it. When she sees the remote in my hand she runs and when I let her outside with it on she won't leave the front door. Thats just proof that they can be used for good but also they can be abused big time.*


That is the problem with E collars and novices. Used properly it is a great tool, used incorrectly it is very dangerous.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If you are not skilled with the e collar it is very easy to accidentally cause superstitious associations or superstitious behaviors. It sounds like your dog is possibly fearful and reactive to people and dogs?

You could potentially make that a lot worse if you were to buy an e collar and try to use it on your own, or with a trainer who isn't qualified.

It doesn't sound like the best solution to me. I second asking how much exercise this dog is getting? What are the other options for getting this dog's needs met other than e collar?


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## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Ahhh, most people don't think they are dull, their dogs may disagree. :grin2: I am actually pretty low key, except when working with my dogs. It doesn't take a lot to be more interesting than the world around you. A quicker step, a happy smile, a loose and relaxed upper body and being upbeat. The positive energy and body language automatically translates to the dog. A little pep in your step goes a long way. Remember, it's all about body language.


I think I need to tattoo this onto my body.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm while I got nothing to add on the E-Collar thing but ..."doesn't like people huh ..... :


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

B&Cgetapup said:


> Oh and I just had a thought. What do you guys think about getting a muzzle so that he wasn't capable of biting someone and then letting the immediate neighbors come up and pet him so he can learn there is nothing to be afraid of and they aren't trying to hurt him? Would something like that work or would it just do more harm than good?


 Aww ... "Bubble Dawg "a term of derision thrown out here a long time I ago, I liked it and kept it! * A dog that needs a protective bubble around him to be safe in public! *

Your on the right track with the muzzle but the wrong approach. I suppose the put a muzzle on the dog and cram people into his face approach could work??

It's not what I did and do with dogs that have ... "people issues" I did use a muzzle with my OS WL GSD but really it never came into play. But I did use one in the beginning for awhile because I was not sure of him?? All I did know was, he did not much care for people. 

Company coming over for the first time was met with a Low Growl and Cold Hard stare??? Hmm ... this is not a Boxer (my thing)???  

Fortunately ... he did not move so for me ... that works "Place" it is and I kept company out of his face, period end of story. I'm a Boxer guy so that behaviour (the growling at starngers) took me by surprise?? 

So for (Rocky), his immediate pack (Human) not a problem, anybody else ... not so much. To me my dog had said clearly* "I don't much care for people,"* I took him at his word. He had no requirement to like people but there was a requirement for him to be safe in public. 

Exposure to people not socialization with people, I kept people out of his face. I showed him how I expected him to be behave. After many miles of one on one walks, finding people to ignore. I learned what he looked like when he was "calm" eventually I dropped the muzzle. My stopping to talk and him standing beside or to my rear was no big deal.

Frankly i was good with that, I had no need for people to pet him in anycase. If I stopped and talked I never said a word to people that he was hands off but I made it pretty clear without saying just that ... Hands Off my dog.

But body language, first clue I would stop several feet away and simply stand in front of him, at first I would say "stay" after awhile that was no longer required, he got this bit. I stop he stops. I talk he waits, usually that ends with a thank you. 


Or sometimes if asked to pet him, it was a No sorry he's in training and off we'd go and it was true he was in training, he was being trained ... not to bite the crap out of people! 

Eventually I was forced to allow someone to pet him. GSD guy I crossed the street to avoid and he crossed the street to intercept!!

So he closed I did what I do and this time he asked well ... "can I pet him??" I'd usually say no because I felt he was a bite risk?? But now I no longer thought that. Rocky was to my rear, so I turned and looked at him ..he was kinda like ... whatever, I've seen this bit before don't care ie no change in his expression. 

I stepped aside and allowed him to pet Rocky, Rocky looked at him like "whatever" he said "Nice Dog you have there" and off we went. My job was done. 

In anycase that was acomplished with the second link here: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html


And I added the last paragraph in the third link The Five Golden Rules to the "Who Pets Thing" .... I'm not a Pro so I had no idea if my dog was fearful or aggressive?? But what I did know was to me he was unpredictable, so fearful or aggressive he was a clear risk for biting the crap out of someone if given the chance. I never gave him that chance. Worked out fine and today it's been nine years. He is safe in public and has never bitten anyone (still does not much care much for company) but today he's more like "nice to see you ... when you leavening???" Still stays in "Place " with company. 

And the "Place Thing ... that's from Baillif a Pro on here. I found more info and compiled it in this thread, that and Sit on the Dog, both are things you should do with your dog.

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

And with "Sit on the Dog" ... you find some place out of the way to just "Sit" on the leash 30 minutes and observe, the goal is simply that. 

This is what I do with every dog I handle I don't know them they don't know me I take zero chances with people and dogs I handle, Rescue work.

Anyway respect your dog's choices and space and it will work out fine. ASk questions and welcome aboard.


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