# Staatsmacht, Gildaf or Other MN, WI or IL Breeder?



## [email protected]

I am looking to get a working line GSD in the near to intermediate term. 

My past experience with GSDs:
I have owned three GSDs in the past: One American line that was as smart as a whip, a Czech long coat, working line GSD that loved to heard but that was about it for drive and a mix of a WG show and working line that was good, but had been abused a bit before I got her. 

What I am looking for:
None of the 3 dogs I have owned could do protection or shutzhund work for various reasons. However, each was a very good pet and valued by our family in its own way. For my next dog, I want a dog that is capable of doing protection/IPO/schutzhund level work but is also not going to require me to run it for an hour each day. I'm a responsible and dedicated GSD owner, but between work and two children, I can't honestly say that I will be able to commit to extensive daily excercise (although I do live on 5 acres). Hopefully this makes sense and you don't all tell me to go get a golden retriever and a security system. 

So here is the question:
I have interacted with Stefen from Staatsmacht and the owner and Gildaf and both have been very impressive and very generous with their time in answering my questions. Both are indisputably very good choices, but would you recommend one over the other in general given what I have said I am looking for? Or, would you recommend anyone else in the WI-IL-MN area in addition?

Very curious to hear your thoughts. Also, for extra credit, I live near Wausau, WI. If anyone knows of a club that exists nearby for training, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance for your advice!


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## crackem

short list for working dogs in that area, Vom Dreieck, Staatsmacht and Bill Kulla

What kind of dogs do you like? not being smart ass, but go see them, which ones are like what you want to live with? Between the two you've mentioned and having worked dogs from both places, Staatsmacht for me. No question


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## Chris Wild

I think it would come down to which of the two had the sort of dog you want. While I've not met either breeder in person or seen many dogs from them, between the dogs I have seen, venues that they participate in and bloodlines they use, I would expect a very different type of dog from each. Only you can determine which would be a good fit for you.


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## justde

Sent you a pm about our club..check your messages 

Sue


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## Mocha

I'm getting a puppy from a Gildaf sire (Buzz) this time next year if the litter is repeated/takes. I personally love their dogs, but I can't tell you which over the other because I've never looked at the other breeder. I just love how involved they are with each dog, I feel they go above and beyond when it comes to working them and they seem to know everything there is to know.

Not to mention their dogs are drop dead gorgeous, just a bonus  

But again , don't know the other to say who is better :/

I'm sure regardless both breeders are great. Perhaps look into some of the puppies they've produced in the past and what they expect in their litters.


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## Greyhorse

Hi, I have an 18 month old dog from Staatsmacht that I train for IPO. He's a very good dog for sport, and also watchful and barks appropriately at home. He's not overly friendly to strangers, but not unfriendly either. He does require some exercise each day. In the cold weather I've been doing a short obedience session in the morning and evening, and he gets time in the yard with my other dog. That keeps him good in the house and totally quiet in his crate. To be successful in IPO you do need a certain energy level. He's a very athletic dog, and easy to train. I expect to start trialing with him this year. I can't comment on how a Gildaf dog would compare because I've never actually seen one work. In my opinion you can't go wrong with Staatsmacht for what you've described. Hope this helps and good luck with your search!


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## Wolfgeist

My male's dam is a female from Staatsmacht, and I am extremely pleased with him. I admire the type of working dog Staatsmacht produces, so they get my vote.


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## meldleistikow

I have a Staatsmacht dog that I am very happy with. He is almost 2.5 years old now. He is a wonderful family pet and lives with 4 little girls and 2 other dogs. He has lots of ball/toy and food drive and does well at Schutzhund. I am hoping to have his IPO1 this summer. With the drives, comes a lot of energy. I try to get him his daily exercise, but when I don't, he is still pretty calm in the house. He knows how to run on the treadmill, so that helps a lot on these really cold or snowy days. He loves to cuddle and get his belly rubbed. He is now at the point where I can leave him out in the house for a few hours a day and trust him not to destroy anything. He also comes up to our cabin (LOVES to swim and dock dive) and is good at meeting strangers, but not overly friendly. He does have a nasty bark when people come up to our house, but is friendly when people come in the house. He doesn't love new dogs (NOT a dog park dog), but when properly introduced is fine. 

I have been training with Stefan since I got Dude and can say that he is very honest and I would buy another dog from him in a heartbeat.


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## glowingtoadfly

I have two working line German shepherds from Gildaf and would reccomend Melinda as a breeder. Her dogs are beautiful and intelligent and I love mine. She will work with you to find the right puppy for your situation. I will say that working line dogs are a commitment as far as training and exercise. Show lines are a bit less of a commitment because they are not as driven.


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## Vinnie

Sounds kind of like what we were looking for when we got our Butch. Butch is our Staatsmacht puppy from the D-litter here in the states and is just over 2 years old. Butch lives in the house with us and our other dog. He does like to have daily exercise but there's no way I'm taking him for an hour long run (even in nice weather). Actually with this cold weather we've had this winter he doesn't get as much outdoor physical exercise as he probably would like. Instead we do more mental exercises in this weather such as short obedience sessions in the house (10-15 minutes each), maybe work on a crazy trick or two for fun, play a short game of fetch and he gets to run outside with our other dog. He doesn't seem to have trouble settling down in the house when we want to watch a TV show or something calm. My husband and I both work full time and he has free roam of the house while we are at work. We usually go out to training every weekend and have earned our SchH - BH along with a few other minor titles (HIC & Nosework ORTs) and are training for more titles in SchH & Nosework this coming trialing season. We know and train with several Staatsmacht puppy owners and I have to say these dogs are impressive. Stefan is a wonderful breeder & trainer. He is great to work with.

If you want a dog to train and compete in Schutzhund/IPO, you are very fortunate to have Staatsmacht so close. Like you, I did look at other breeders in this area and I would very confidently say that Staatsmacht would still be my top recommendation in this area for a puppy and for training.


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## glowingtoadfly

My Gildaf dogs are very different in personality and drives. Skadi is ball crazy, high drive, high energy, and has learned an excellent off switch in the house with training. I don't have to run her because she gets exercise chasing her ball. Grim is high energy but does fine with one half hour walk and brief training/ tug/ ball play daily. He is not quite as nuts for a ball and doesn't want to chase one all day like she does. He is definitely much more of a pet dog than she is- Grim is a snuggler, whereas Skadi needs a job much more. They also tire each other out for me! Both my dogs from Gildaf came to me as teenage returns, so I have been doing much more socializing and training at home. Despite their learning history at previous homes, these dogs learn lightning fast. I taught Skadi the names of three different toys and how to find them while hidden in the house in one night. She remembers the intricacies of nature trails better than I do. I would definitely visit both kennels before you make a decision! Buzz, who is both of my dogs' sire, is very impressive in his Schutzhund work. 
-Emily
Macro z Gildaf Von " Skadi"
Viking z Gildaf Von Schraderhaus " Grim"


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## glowingtoadfly

... And while I am not telling you to get a golden retriever and a security system, or a showline, I can tell you that having a high drive dog bred for Schutzhund can be a challenge. Melinda even has a very honest disclaimer on her site about what it can be like to raise one.


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## RocketDog

I don't have a recommendation about kennels because I don't know anything about either of them-- I just wanted to comment on the exercise thing.

I do run my dog for about 90 minutes 4 days a week and we hike several hours at a time (4-7 miles) most days a week. I can tell you that does not tire him out, he still wants to 'play' with me, as in: obedience or training or that type of interaction. A good training session of mental exercise is as good as any physical one, so don't worry too much about having to run them hard every day. In fact, he can skip those more than he can skip a one on one training with me.  (He's WGSL, btw)


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## meldleistikow

I agree with Rocketdog that the mental stimulation can be just as tiring if not more tiring than physical exercise. Oh, and Dude always wants to play if you allow it. Even if you put away all of his toys, he can still find the tiniest piece of trash that a child dropped and ask very politely for you to throw it for him. This can be annoying but he will quit if you ignore him after a while. I have to admit that I play with him most of the time though


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## glowingtoadfly

I didn't mean to come off as considering show lines inferior  I love all German shepherds.My little girl is just quite a challenge as an adolescent and is just starting to calm down. We used to hike her for three miles a day when the WI weather was not so bad, and I'm sure we will do the same thing for Grim when it's nicer around here. She just went through and is still working her way out of an extreme landshark DIY schutzhund phase that left me bruised, because her previous home was unable to commit to breaking her of it as a puppy.


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## RocketDog

I didn't take it that way at all if that was for me.


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## gsdsar

I only have 1 experience with Staactmact. A young female. I love that dog. Meeting her put their program high on my list for my next dog. 

However, this owner asked for a lower key, less driven dog. That is MOT what he got. And if THIS puppy is that breeders idea of low drive low key, I would be frightened of a high drive dog from him. This dog is intense!!!! But I don't think it was a good match for this family. I would take her in a second. 


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## glowingtoadfly

Melinda was very honest with us about our dogs, their drives, and what to expect, and has been nothing but helpful and supportive as we have painstakingly and with much success rehabbed our girl.


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## Greyhorse

gsdsar,
Do you remember which litter this female was from? Who the parents are? I have seen all litters from the past couple years or so and I'm always curious how they turn out. She sounds like a great dog


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## lhczth

Another suggestion would be :: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING :: They are very close to the WI border in northern IL. I had a litter by their current male, Athos, and these pups have super drive for the work, but are also very easy to live with. 4 are in working homes and all 5 are house pets. I have never bought a puppy from them, but have bred to two of their males over the years and they have always represented their dogs honestly. There are several board members with their dogs and some are repeated buyers. Also board member Suka has one of the pups from my litter.


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## gsdsar

Greyhorse said:


> gsdsar,
> Do you remember which litter this female was from? Who the parents are? I have seen all litters from the past couple years or so and I'm always curious how they turn out. She sounds like a great dog




I wish I did. I only saw the pedigree once. Right when she was brought in to my clinic. She is about 14 mo old and sire was high protection BSP at some point. But I could be very wrong about that as well. LOL. Sorry. 


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## Greyhorse

That sounds like the F litter, Quardes x Ultra. There are a couple of puppies from that litter training around here and they are quite nice!

For the OP, breeders do try to make the best match possible, and mostly are very accurate from what I've seen, but puppies can change from how they seemed at 7 or 8 weeks.


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## gsdsar

Greyhorse said:


> That sounds like the F litter, Quardes x Ultra. There are a couple of puppies from that litter training around here and they are quite nice!
> 
> For the OP, breeders do try to make the best match possible, and mostly are very accurate from what I've seen, but puppies can change from how they seemed at 7 or 8 weeks.



If this owner did not love her, no matter the dynamics, I would have offered to take her off his hands!!!




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## Greyhorse

Gsdsar, I think you'd have been lucky if you could have


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## glowingtoadfly

High drive dogs are so much fun.


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## Greyhorse

This is a sister to the puppy gsdsar had seen. I just saw this girl training this morning. She was higher drive than the other female, which is why that guy got the other, but with good training she looks like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RU6GI2afqA&app=m

Really nice female!


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## [email protected]

*Thanks and one more question:*

I appreciate all the advice. Its great to be able to tap into all these thoughts and opinions. I will throw out one more question to hear your thoughts: For those of you that have dogs that have matured (2+ years of age) do you think your dogs would protect your house, your car, etc. if they were in it and you were not around? 

It's an interesting question in my mind because we talk about having a dog capable of doing work and being under our command, but what about when you are not around? I really want to know that my dog has the protective instincts and nerves to protect my family if/when I am traveling or if I leave the dog in my car that I don't have to worry about it. 

I'm not talking about a dog that will bark so that most people will just leave well enough alone. I'm talking about an animal, that, when push comes to shove, does the most important job it can do and can discern what is real threat and what is not.

Is this the difference between a protection dog and a dog that is trained in sport?


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## Greyhorse

I don't think it's nearly as simple as sport dog or not. I'm guessing that a lot of people who say their dog would for sure protect would be surprised when reality hits. My older dog, who has IPO3, put his head through a large window while I was away one day. Why he did that I'll never know, but I guarantee if there was a person there they didn't stick around too long  It's far more important to me that they would protect me than the property when I'm not here. Would they? I hope I never find out!


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## Mocha

It really depends on the dog, and what instincts they have inherently. I'm a firm believer that a dog that doesn't have it in them, wont have it in them. If they're selected to be trained in protection, then they obviously have the nerves to do it. Keep in mind that a German Shepherd is almost always a strong deterrent, just by sound / looks. Most people with bad intentions will more than likely NOT test out wether that large booming dog is going to greet them or eat them. 

My working line male has the temperament of a golden retriever but a lot of people cross the street when I walk him, ask if he's friendly, refrain from letting our dogs meet etc simply because he looks rather scary to the average person. 










I know my father's GSD went through their front bay window when the post man tried leaving a box in the door way....


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## meldleistikow

I know from what my neighbors and family have told me that my dogs (especially Dude's) bark is very different and more ferocious when they have come to our house when we weren't there. They have said that it is much scarier than when we are home and they bark at the door. I guess that means that they are being more protective, but I hope it never gets tested. In fact, if I am not home and someone breaks in my house even after they see two barking German Shepherds, I hope my dogs run and hide so they don't get hurt. If someone breaks into my house with big dogs barking at them, they probably have a gun and are going to shoot your dogs, or they are crazy. My house is full of things. Things are replacable, my dogs are not. You could never really know until it happens.


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## Kahrg4

I have a son from Blaise vom Gildaf by another breeder. He's super ball driven, has great handler focus, and is a powerhouse of speed. If the closest Sch club wasn't 6 hours (one way) from us I def would have tried getting him involved. When the time comes for me to look for my next shepherd I will be start by checking Gildaf litters first. I can't speak to the others as I have no experience with them. 

Sounds like you've narrowed it down to some great choices though. Best of luck!


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## glowingtoadfly

Oh good, another Gildafer.. I'm kind of the home for troubled teens so I don't think my experience is typical lol.


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## [email protected]

Very nice, and nice looking dog too. Thanks for sharing.


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## Shaolin

[email protected] said:


> I appreciate all the advice. Its great to be able to tap into all these thoughts and opinions. I will throw out one more question to hear your thoughts: For those of you that have dogs that have matured (2+ years of age) do you think your dogs would protect your house, your car, etc. if they were in it and you were not around?
> 
> It's an interesting question in my mind because we talk about having a dog capable of doing work and being under our command, but what about when you are not around? I really want to know that my dog has the protective instincts and nerves to protect my family if/when I am traveling or if I leave the dog in my car that I don't have to worry about it.
> 
> I'm not talking about a dog that will bark so that most people will just leave well enough alone. I'm talking about an animal, that, when push comes to shove, does the most important job it can do and can discern what is real threat and what is not.
> 
> Is this the difference between a protection dog and a dog that is trained in sport?


It all depends on the dog.

My GSD did defend me when push came to shove: someone broke into my home and came inside while I was home alone. He did a "bark and hold" and he has never been to Sch/IPO training. He never bit the person, but the person never gave him a chance as he ran out the door after he realized my dog meant business. Not even ten minutes later, he was happily allowing the cops to give him scratches and belly rubs.

My first GSD was all about the protection factor. It wasn't aggression, it was just truly protection. He was the only dog I've owned that I truly feel would have bitten someone if the intruder gave him the chance. 

Here's the rub. I do not expect my dog to protect me...I am here to protect him. I like the fact that he will protect me and can discern a real threat (weird, sketchy guy that was hanging around my house) from the UPS guy delivering a box, but defense is not what I expect from him. I expect him to bark at the weird, sketchy guy and give me enough warning that I can call 911...anything after that is a bonus.


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## enh811

Www.Hokschhaus.com near Madison, WI. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.  good luck in your search. 


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## [email protected]

enh811 said:


> Www.Hokschhaus.com near Madison, WI. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.  good luck in your search.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Thanks for the information. I noticed that these are West German Show Lines. Not trying to re-ignite a working line vs. Show line debate here, but how would you characterize this kennel's ability to produce dogs capable of doing protection/schutzhund work on a consistent basis?


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## Sarah'sSita

I would talk to the breeder directly and get references on how well they work. They are titled which for me is a plus. There are good show lines that "work", however if its serious work like high level schutzhund or personal protection you want one has to see many showlines to get to that level. High quality work ethic has not been a breeding goal for many showline breeders - its about the gait, subjective beauty. I love my working line GSD and once I saw what the working lines brings to training and performance I never went back or looked back.


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## Blitzkrieg1

If you want to be competitive go Staatmacht, proven dogs no stories.


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## glowingtoadfly

Oh, I'm sure every breeder has their stories


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## Smithie86

Stefan has a very good breeding program, with proven dogs from his own breedings.


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## Packen

glowingtoadfly said:


> Oh, I'm sure every breeder has their stories


Yeah, key difference being dog making the story vs the storyteller


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## Jmoore728

What about Sportwaffen? Have you considered them?


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> Oh, I'm sure every breeder has their stories


And their awesome stud dog with a youtube clip!  I loved that story.


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## glowingtoadfly

Buzz has his IPO2. Don't know much about schutzhund yet, but I know all her dogs are titled before being bred. Anyway...


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## crackem

being titled and being a worthy stud dog are completely different subjects. A stud dog should be full of everything. If they are lacking nerve, not a stud dog. If they don't handle minimal pressure effectively, not a stud dog. If they have to be trained thru a drive to make it thru a trial, not a stud dog. If they can't be kept clean in a blind because if you did make them, they wouldn't stay there, not a stud dog. Some dogs are dirty because they are assholes or have incomplete training. Some dogs are dirty because if you kept them clean, they'd be too worried to stay. 

Some are great to play ball with and have around the house, but NOT a stud dog. It's ok, that's how many dogs are. Love it, take care of, don't breed it.


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## glowingtoadfly

Crackem, could you please explain what dirty, clean, and blind are? Thank you.


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## crackem

Sure, a clean dog runs into the blind and doesn't bite the helper, a dirty dog goes in and nips and bites at the static helper. They might come in and take a big 'ol chomp and bury it, some come in and nip and test the waters to see if it's ok to stay there and bark, both dirty, but for very different reasons.


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## Wolfenstein

crackem said:


> Sure, a clean dog runs into the blind and doesn't bite the helper, a dirty dog goes in and nips and bites at the static helper. They might come in and take a big 'ol chomp and bury it, some come in and nip and test the waters to see if it's ok to stay there and bark, both dirty, but for very different reasons.





glowingtoadfly said:


> Crackem, could you please explain what dirty, clean, and blind are? Thank you.


The blind is an actual, physical thing, not a descriptor, I don't think that came across.  When you're watching SchH, the blind is the spot where the helper is hiding. I'm guessing Crackem is talking about a dog being "clean" if it goes in to the blind doing the job it's supposed to do, correctly, without extra coaxing, and "dirty" if the dog takes a lot of encouragement or correction to do what they're supposed to well.

So basically, it's quite possible to really work at a dog and train it to go through the motions, but if you're going to breed, you want to make sure the dog NATURALLY has the right instincts, because you're passing on genetics, not training.


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## crackem

that's not quite what i'm getting at, partially, but not quite. . there is a lot going on in dogs at any time in any training scenario, so I tend to focus on big picture, not specifics because all the drives and terms people want to use are always blended and many different "blends" can be useful, some are not.

Now that that is out of the way, a dog must come in and show control and power. That's the ideal. Some come in and have tons of power, but not so much control. Then we have to decide, is that a training issue? or a dog issue? I don't worry too much about a dog with tons of power, will, desire, confidence, etc, A serious temperament flaw will usually be easy to see, and the rest? well that's just training and more times that now, very workable. The dog has the right stuff in it, just needs better or more training.

on the other hand a dog might come in and jump on the helper and take a quick "nip". Just to kind of test the waters. Make sure it's Ok to sit there and bark and act all tough in front of you  periodically throughout that time they're left there, they stop and check things out, check their handler, check the decoy, their barks are usually not strong and confident, they fade in and out, start stop. (not that the type of barking is always indicative of what is going on, it's just one part. Lots of times barking can just be a training issue too) they nip again, take a little bite, back off, in and out. etc. 

all of those things can be created by training, unresolved conflict with helper or handler etc. It's not the be all and end all, but it does show something. If he was made to be "clean", meaning he didn't nip and bite at the handler to make sure he was still ok, he wouldn't be able to handle the pressure. It's like they take little shots to see how they react and when they don't, the dog feels a tiny bit more sure about itself. Enough to stay in the game. 

If a helper were to drive into the dog at that point and spin him back in the blind and put on pressure, that dog would be off the sleeve so fast everyone would be wondering how to get him back on. 

On drives, if you back pressure to create opposing forces so they maintain a grip is training for the drive. By itself, it's not really a great or horrible thing. Lots of people will do things like that with even very good dogs, to maintain that great picture for the highest points in a trial. But then others do it, because they have to condition their dog to just hang on because a real drive would cause their dog to let go. One is acceptable, one is not, not with stud dogs.


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you Crackem and Wolfenstein, that helps  I've only been to schutzhund once so I'm still learning.


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## crackem

glowingtoadfly said:


> Thank you Crackem and Wolfenstein, that helps  I've only been to schutzhund once so I'm still learning.


There's a lot to learn  and what you think you see today, will look different 6 months from now and what you thought you knew 5 years ago will seem silly at some point  Everybody goes thru it.

before I titled my first dog I thought I knew quite a bit and after I did, I thought I knew most everything. Then I learned I didn't 

Dog training is like everything else, keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out. Use what you know to make the best decisions you can, and when you make a mistake learn from it.


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## Smithie86

crackem said:


> There's a lot to learn  and what you think you see today, will look different 6 months from now and what you thought you knew 5 years ago will seem silly at some point  Everybody goes thru it.
> 
> before I titled my first dog I thought I knew quite a bit and after I did, I thought I knew most everything. Then I learned I didn't
> 
> Dog training is like everything else, keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out. Use what you know to make the best decisions you can, and when you make a mistake learn from it.




Yes, but at least you admit what you know, do not/did not know and still work on it.


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## glowingtoadfly

crackem said:


> There's a lot to learn  and what you think you see today, will look different 6 months from now and what you thought you knew 5 years ago will seem silly at some point  Everybody goes thru it.
> 
> before I titled my first dog I thought I knew quite a bit and after I did, I thought I knew most everything. Then I learned I didn't
> 
> Dog training is like everything else, keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out. Use what you know to make the best decisions you can, and when you make a mistake learn from it.


Thanks Crackem... I'm trying to learn


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## glowingtoadfly

It is just hard to hear negative things when I know what amazing dogs I have, and knowing what a great person Melinda is. She tests for DM, hip and elbow dysplasia, everything. Both my dogs' parents have their HIC and CGC... and in my opinion a CGC makes a dog breedworthy because of the intensive temperament testing involved.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Your kidding..right?


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Your kidding..right?


Nope. Are your dogs canine good citizens? The CGC, HIC, and extensive health testing would be enough for me to say that a breeder is reputable, and breeding for the right reasons.


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## Saphire

glowingtoadfly said:


> It is just hard to hear negative things when I know what amazing dogs I have, and knowing what a great person Melinda is. She tests for DM, hip and elbow dysplasia, everything. Both my dogs' parents have their HIC and CGC... and in my opinion a CGC makes a dog breedworthy because of the intensive temperament testing involved.


Breeding dogs with HIC and CGC are not titles that prove a dog is breed worthy. Not even close IMO. Those are the "titles" BYB use to promote their dogs NOT reputable breeders.

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## Lauri & The Gang

I've seen dogs pass the CGC that should have failed. In my area the CGC is a joke.


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## glowingtoadfly

Saphire said:


> Breeding dogs with HIC and CGC are not titles that prove a dog is breed worthy. Not even close IMO. Those are the "titles" BYB use to promote their dogs NOT reputable breeders.
> 
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What titles make a dog breedworthy? Maybe that should be a new thread. Anyway, a breeder who tests for DM and hip and elbow dysplasia is not a BYB, in my opinion testing for these things before breeding shows you care a great deal about what you are producing.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> What titles make a dog breedworthy? Maybe that should be a new thread. Anyway, a breeder who tests for DM and hip and elbow dysplasia is not a BYB, in my opinion testing for these things before breeding shows you care a great deal about what you are producing.


Bite sport title minimum of a level one for females. Why would I do a CGC? It means nothing. Titles are important but on their own mean not much. Its about the dog and you can only know the dog through working it and testing it. Until you have worked dogs and trained them you know nothing. Hence why there are so many weak dogs out there. **Removed by admin** Its about the breeder having the knowledge and honesty to evaluate the dog both its strengths an weaknesses. Very few breeders can be trusted to do that.

Not getting XRays and saying its the bestest doggy ever. Focus on getting the basics of training down before talking about breeding.


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## Rei

There are Golden Retrievers and Chihuahuas and Greyhounds that have passed their CGC evaluation, hip/elbow certifications, and are clear for DM. That doesn't make them good German Shepherd Dogs (or good representations of their respective breeds, necessarily). What that makes them is a dog with passing health and the ability to sit for petting, come when called, walk loose leash, etc on that day. What is there to prove that a GSD that passes a CGC is any different from that Golden Retriever or Chihuahua or Greyhound? IPO isn't perfect either, but I would learn more of what I want to know training and working a GSD in IPO than I would testing for a CGC certification. Nothing to do with what I think is a "BYB", but the OP did express an interest in IPO and working dogs specifically. 

I don't have experience with any of the breeders listed, so cannot offer any recommendations. I am very interested in learning more about Staatsmacht, however, from what I have heard of the breeder and seen of the dogs and breedings online. Hope to meet Terror in particular, or some of his progeny one day


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## Saphire

glowingtoadfly said:


> What titles make a dog breedworthy? Maybe that should be a new thread. Anyway, a breeder who tests for DM and hip and elbow dysplasia is not a BYB, in my opinion testing for these things before breeding shows you care a great deal about what you are producing.


Testing for DM, HD and ED do not make a dog breedworthy. I want to see real titles. If I was looking for a show line GSD I want to see the parents have attained their Championships. I would expect the same throughout the pedigree. I would want hips and elbows cleared.
If I am looking for a working line GSD I want to see working titles along with hips and elbow testing.
If I was looking into a pup from a breeder who promoted the parents as exceptional breedworthy examples of GSD because they had accomplished HIC and CGC, I would be gone like a flash of lightening as they have invested very little into those dogs and are a BYB which I won't ever support.

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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Bite sport title minimum of a level one for females. Why would I do a CGC? It means nothing. Titles are important but on their own mean not much. Its about the dog and you can only know the dog through working it and testing it. Until you have worked dogs and trained them you know nothing. Hence why there are so many weak dogs out there. **removed by admin** Its about the breeder having the knowledge and honesty to evaluate the dog both its strengths an weaknesses. Very few breeders can be trusted to do that.
> 
> Not getting XRays and saying its the bestest doggy ever. Focus on getting the basics of training down before talking about breeding.


**Removed by Admin** He is quite the friendly character. I am impressed that he is handler owner trained. Also, a few of her dogs are in SAR.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> *********. He is quite the friendly character. I am impressed that he is handler owner trained. Also, a few of her dogs are in SAR.


Being friendly means squat. So is my male chihuahua he is also a therapy dog perhaps I should breed him to your female? He could pass his CGC and get x rays.


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## glowingtoadfly

Saphire said:


> Testing for DM, HD and ED do not make a dog breedworthy. I want to see real titles. If I was looking for a show line GSD I want to see the parents have attained their Championships. I would expect the same throughout the pedigree. I would want hips and elbows cleared.
> If I am looking for a working line GSD I want to see working titles along with hips and elbow testing.
> If I was looking into a pup from a breeder who promoted the parents as exceptional breedworthy examples of GSD because they had accomplished HIC and CGC, I would be gone like a flash of lightening as they have invested very little into those dogs and are a BYB which I won't ever support.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes, and many of my breeder's dogs have working titles, and she is currently working on more. I have the utmost trust in my breeder.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Being friendly means squat. So is my male chihuahua he is also a therapy dog perhaps I should breed him to your female? He could pass his CGC and get x rays.


No thanks, she's still working on getting titled. I think it is wonderful that my breeder is on the SAR team doing real work with these dogs in human remains detection, tracking, etc. That, in my opinion, makes a dog breedworthy... Being a working dog.


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## Saphire

glowingtoadfly said:


> No thanks, she's still working on getting titled. I think it is wonderful that my breeder is on the SAR team doing real work with these dogs in human remains detection, tracking, etc. That, in my opinion, makes a dog breedworthy... Being a working dog.


Having a certified SAR dog is something to talk about. Working towards and certified are two different things.

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## glowingtoadfly

Saphire said:


> Having a certified SAR dog is something to talk about. Working towards and certified are two different things.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She has one certified SAR dog and is training a few more right now. One of them is my little guy's brother.


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## Saphire

glowingtoadfly said:


> Yes, and many of my breeder's dogs have working titles, and she is currently working on more. I have the utmost trust in my breeder.


I am confused. Why is she breeding dogs with HIC CGC only when she has other dogs with real titles?

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## Saphire

glowingtoadfly said:


> She has one certified SAR dog and is training a few more right now. One of them is my little guy's brother.


But the parents of your dog's have no real titles....very confusing.

To each their own, seems like a confusing breeding program to me.

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## glowingtoadfly

She is actually working towards titling a lot of her dogs more right now.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> No thanks, she's still working on getting titled. I think it is wonderful that my breeder is on the SAR team doing real work with these dogs in human remains detection, tracking, etc. That, in my opinion, makes a dog breedworthy... Being a working dog.


It doesnt there are labs and goldens and rescue mutts that do it. The standards vary widely some being stringent others not so much. You can title weak dogs the title itself doesnt make a weak dog strong. You can put lipstick on a pig but in the end all you got is a pretty pig.


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## glowingtoadfly

Saphire said:


> But the parents of your dog's have no real titles....very confusing.
> 
> To each their own, seems like a confusing breeding program to me.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Buzz, my girl and boy 's sire, has his IPO 2 AD CGC and HIC. Natasha, my girl's dam, has her HIC and CGC.
My boy's dam has her CGC. Currently, my breeder is working on more titles.


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## lhczth

Please, only generic comments about the breed as a whole. No bashing of living dogs. 

Thank you, 

Admin Lisa


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## lhczth

glowingtoadfly said:


> .... and in my opinion a CGC makes a dog breedworthy because of the intensive temperament testing involved.


I am a CGC evaluator and, believe me, the CGC is FAR from an intensive temperament test. It is a basic test showing that a dog can behave reasonably well in pubic.


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## Wolfenstein

I also think one of the whole reasons the OP was looking for a dog is being missed here- The OP SPECIFICALLY wanted a dog to do IPO. Even if different people have different standards that they would hold a breeder to, the fact still stands that in order to stack the odds as much as you can in your favor for a sport dog, you go to a breeder who specifically titles, breeds, and knows that sport inside and out. Some breeders focus on IPO, some focus on SAR, some focus on service dogs, the list goes on. You can split hairs all day on who is doing it "correctly", but at the end of the day you need to find a breeder who is going to be in line not only with your standard of ethics in health matters, but who is breeding the type of dogs that you want. In this case, if I were looking for a dog that I was hoping to participate in IPO with, I would go to a breeder who breeds EXCLUSIVELY dogs with at least a level 1 title and trains his or her own dogs. But you know what else? This is my personal opinion! Everyone's picture of an "ideal" breeder is going to differ greatly.


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## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> It doesnt there are labs and goldens and rescue mutts that do it. The standards vary widely some being stringent others not so much. You can title weak dogs the title itself doesnt make a weak dog strong. You can put lipstick on a pig but in the end all you got is a pretty pig.


I happen to believe that IPO isn't the be all and end all of a dog's character, and that titles aren't everything. Sometimes, there is just something about a dog. That is how we ended up with both of our dogs, and that's ok.


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I happen to believe that IPO isn't the be all and end all of a dog's character, and that titles aren't everything. Sometimes, there is just something about a dog. That is how we ended up with both of our dogs, and that's ok.


 
I never said it was, its a good start and the training process if done appropriately will tell you a lot about the dog.

SAR can give you some idea of what you have but there are some components that you need to test outside of that venue before declaring a SAR dog breedable. 

When you actually do IPO and actively participate and work in an environment that pushes you and your dog in many ways you will understand.

"something" about a dog does not = breedable.


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## Stefan Schaub

Wolfenstein said:


> I also think one of the whole reasons the OP was looking for a dog is being missed here- The OP SPECIFICALLY wanted a dog to do IPO. Even if different people have different standards that they would hold a breeder to, the fact still stands that in order to stack the odds as much as you can in your favor for a sport dog, you go to a breeder who specifically titles, breeds, and knows that sport inside and out. Some breeders focus on IPO, some focus on SAR, some focus on service dogs, the list goes on. You can split hairs all day on who is doing it "correctly", but at the end of the day you need to find a breeder who is going to be in line not only with your standard of ethics in health matters, but who is breeding the type of dogs that you want. In this case, if I were looking for a dog that I was hoping to participate in IPO with, I would go to a breeder who breeds EXCLUSIVELY dogs with at least a level 1 title and trains his or her own dogs. But you know what else? This is my personal opinion! Everyone's picture of an "ideal" breeder is going to differ greatly.


I thought i stay out of this but i think we all should get straight in our mind!!a working gsd should be able to do every kind of job,a working gsd should be able to find his/her place in the new family. for sure from time to time breeders produce a more than normal working gsd, but again also this dog find for sure the right place. here in the US are no requirements how you breed,when you breed and what you breed.USCA/WDA/SV program does not work out,because people decide by them self who they breed. people take a CGC title as something special,other people take a herding title as something special and some others take a ipo or ring title as something special. It is like with parents, they love their own kids!!and think they are pretty and smart, if they bring bad grades it is the teachers fault, same with dogs!!! A breeder produce puppies and try to breed in his/her best interest to get the dog they like. 

The point is that most of the breeders are not able to train a dog in what ever, so how can you expect that they know how good the own breeding stock is!!how can they know what is missing in the dogs and how can they know what for issues different combination have.

I do not know Gildaf kennels and i do not know so many other breeders in the US, but we have today youtube and other video platforms and can see what everyone is producing. For me it is not important to see one dog on a big championship for me is important to see dogs out of the same kennel in many different areas.


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## martemchik

glowingtoadfly said:


> I happen to believe that IPO isn't the be all and end all of a dog's character, and that titles aren't everything. Sometimes, there is just something about a dog. That is how we ended up with both of our dogs, and that's ok.


I think you're kind of equating a dog's breedworthiness to a dog's ability to be a pet/live.

No one is saying that a dog shouldn't be alive or can't make an amazing pet if it can't achieve a certain title. It's just that it probably doesn't need to pass on its genes if all it can do is reach an HIC or a CGC. Those titles don't prove much about the dog, and depending on the breed, other things should be looked at.

In the case of a German Shepherd Dog, the dog should be challenged under pressure, it should be tested under more stress than what the CGC provides.


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## DonnaKay

Mine is also a Buzz Gildaf pup from another breeder. She's very high drive, good temperament and stable nerves. I wasn't considering IPO/Sch but I might look into it. I think whichever direction I decide to take her training, she will do very well.


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## GatorDog

glowingtoadfly said:


> I happen to believe that IPO isn't the be all and end all of a dog's character, and that titles aren't everything. Sometimes, there is just something about a dog. That is how we ended up with both of our dogs, and that's ok.


Whenever I see this opinion of IPO as a breed test, it's almost always from someone who has never done IPO themselves.

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## glowingtoadfly

GatorDog said:


> Whenever I see this opinion of IPO as a breed test, it's almost always from someone who has never done IPO themselves.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We actually just started going with martemchik's help


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## holland

glowingtoadfly said:


> We actually just started going with martemchik's help


 All the best to you and your dog-enjoy your time-


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## northwoodsGSD

Maybe everyone should start a different thread bashing the breeders they dislike or singing their own praises & let this thread get back to what the OP posted.

To the OP,
If you can go & personally visit the breeders/kennels you like than I highly suggest you do. Meet the breeder & their dogs in person, it'll give you a more realistic idea of which place is a better fit for your wants, needs, & expectations.
One thing you'll find is any breeder that has been breeding long enough(doesn't matter what the animal is) will have folks saying both positive & negative things about them. It's up to you to read between the lines, do your homework & pick what fits you best, not joe blow from down the street.


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## glowingtoadfly

holland said:


> All the best to you and your dog-enjoy your time-


Thanks! Both of my dogs did very impressive work at IPO today, that may help the OP


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## glowingtoadfly

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-do-some-breeders-not-use-titled-females.html
There is some interesting information in this thread and a post from David Winners about trusting your breeder that I feel applies to this thread.


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## glowingtoadfly

I also have my dogs' pedigrees in my signature. Plenty of titles and Schutzhund 3's in there, if the OP wants to check it out.


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## [email protected]

*Finally getting a puppy*

Well, it only took a year, but I finally put a deposit down on a puppy with one of the breeders mentioned in the posts. Thanks everyone for your advice and counsel.


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