# Walsh's Windy Acres in Cresco, Iowa



## bkinzie

I was thinking of making a trip this weekend to look at their pups. Has anyone had any experience with them?

Windy Acres


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## LaRen616

Never heard of them but their dogs are very large (almost too large in my opinion) they look kinda fat too (also my opinion) I love big GSD's dont get me wrong my GSD is on the big size but their dogs just look off to me. Sorry (just my opinion please dont be offended )


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## bkinzie

I'm not offended in anyway. Lost my GSD this past weekend. A great and wonderful 6 years that was cut short b/c of bloat. I'm trying to go slow and make the right, educated decision.


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## Liesje

Don't see anything about titles, health, lineage, what training they do. Not my type at all (way to large and overweight), but if you're interested, I'd print up a list of questions/concerns and check them out. Kinda hard to rule in/out based on a web site.


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## LaRen616

I am sorry for your loss. Losing our best friend is never easy  I would not get a puppy from that place but that is just me.


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## Anja1Blue

I wouldn't consider this breeder. It's not just the deliberate breeding for oversize either. (And the words "Old Style" which these GSD's most definitely are not.) It's the fact that there is absolutely nothing on this website that really tells you anything about these dogs - no pedigrees, no hip scores, no evidence of any training (they probably don't do any), no contract to view..... I note that they have also dabbled in hogs and calves, and are asking for fosters to place some of their (prospective breeding stock) puppies with. (!) Sorry, I would run, not walk, to do more research.(Though if you want to satisfy your curiosity, you lose nothing by getting in touch and seeing what info you get from them.)
_________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Anja1Blue

Just wanted to add I am so sorry for your loss - it is heartbreaking to lose a young dog to something like bloat. Tragic...
__________________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## GSDElsa

Yeah, I agree. The dogs are HUGE--way bigger than they should be IMO....and chubtastic.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Anja1Blue said:


> Just wanted to add I am so sorry for your loss - it is heartbreaking to lose a young dog to something like bloat. Tragic...
> __________________________________________________
> Susan
> 
> Anja SchH3 GSD
> Conor GSD
> Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


BTW, bloat is GENETIC. So another thing to ask about, and that your good responsible breeders will be 100% truthful about. Added to the fact the BEST breeders keep track of all the puppies they've ever had EVER!!! So you can checkup on their honesty by also contacting past puppy owners. 

Best thing is to do what you are doing, really take a ton of time to consider what flavor GSD you really would like this time. Chek? East German? Working German? Show German? AKC? Do you have any training goals for this new dog? 

Course everyone knows AGILITY is the best thing to do with your dog, so if you want to do that.... certain lines do better than others....and you do NOT want one of those HUGE 100 pound 'Old Time' GSD's for that!


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## KayElle

I'm so sorry about your loss! I know a breeder here in Michigan who is friends with Julie, and they worked together on breeding. Julie DOES OFA her dogs! From what I know about her, I think you will find her very forthcoming with any questions you have, including OFA certificates, pedigrees, whatever. As to her foster program, it is my understanding that she has foster owners of selected breeding stock so that she can provide QUALITY time with the dogs that live with her. Let's face it, even breeders who care about each individual dog they own/breed, knows that you can have too many and thus, not provide quality care, time and love to all of them. I think her foster program is based on Leeburg's foster program. IMO, that's responsible -- keeping an eye on potential breeding stock, yet providing each and every dog, regardless of whether they are for breeding or not, a great home! Once again, having met dogs with some of Julie's lines, I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you meet Julie and her dogs -- which are not overweight!!! Good Luck!


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## RubyTuesday

I don't know this breeder, but she's certainly worth looking at, unless you plan to do agility. I adore the big guys, but a more moderate sized dog is better suited to competitive agility. 

IMO, her dogs are too hefty but this is a feeding issue. Regardless of where you acquire your dog, strive to keep him lean.


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## Xeph

I wouldn't buy one from her. They're overweight and of poor conformation IMO


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## RubyTuesday

Jackie, weight can be managed by the owner. 

I like the looks of some. I'm not so crazy about some of the others, but I'd be more interested in seeing pix of adult offspring.


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## Samba

There is nothing on the site that would inspire me to go look.


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## Liesje

Weight can be managed by the owner, sure, but if I'm spending money on a dog I want it to be on a breeder I support. Weight is not difficult to manage (unless the dog has a health condition, which would be another issue). A breeder that cannot keep dogs at a healthy weight doesn't really instill a lot of confidence in the buyer. There's plenty of healthy dogs and diligent breeders to choose from. JMO


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## RubyTuesday

Bkinzie, KayElle appears to have personal knowledge of & experience with the breeder. IF you're interested in this breeder, you might want to pm her. Personal experience counts for more with me than opinions from people that don't know the breeder or her dogs. Hence, if you like these dogs it might be worth looking into them further.

Lies, that's commendable. Are you as scrupulous in eliminating breeders from consideration/recommendation that kick or mistreat their dogs?


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## bkinzie

Thanks everyone for your input


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## Minnieski

I don't know much about her, but I don't like how some of her dogs have a definite sway back.


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## Denise

Hi BKenzie  
I actually have a female from this breeder.. And she is lovely inside and out she will be two in August. When I was a child ( in the 60's) this was the dog that I remembered.. Straight top line large boned balanced temper. Very hard to find now, slowly but surely the GSD began to shrink in stature and the hips began to slope. It is all in your personal taste but I just love her. She is now 115 lbs and there is not an ounce of fat on her anywhere. You would not be disappointed.. I agree with one of the posts regarding agility this would not be a recommended for this line. I do obiedience and defense work with her which she excels at.. Her prey drive is not over the top which is what I wanted... Her name is Apple if you talk to Julie in either case good luck with your search fro your perfect new pet..and sorry for your loss.


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## Emoore

Denise said:


> She is now 115 lbs and there is not an ounce of fat on her anywhere. You would not be disappointed.


Honestly, I'd be disappointed if my German Shepherd were 115lb. These are GSDs, not Great Danes, and they were never intended to be that large. I'm sure you love your dog and she's a great girl; dogs that size do pop up occasionally but breeding for them is no more appropriate than breeding for long coats, floppy ears, or "rare" colors. It's a bit of a red flag for a breeder to advertise size on their website but not titles or accomplishments.


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## Asche-zu-Staub

GSDElsa said:


> Yeah, I agree. The dogs are HUGE--way bigger than they should be IMO....and chubtastic.


lol chubtastic....i like that.


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## Denise

they advertise that because there are people that are looking for "old school" shepherds like I was.. It is appropriate if this is what you want to purchase. Like I said before it is all in your personal taste, and back in the 60's that is what you would find. I love all GSD's so I'm not going to start ripping on one body type over another other... However her Sire OFA excellent and her mother OFA good ... Good health is more important to me than "titles" any day


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## Samba

They don't look like German Shepherds of the 60s to me. I think they are their own thing.


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## codmaster

It appears to me that they are not doing ANY "work" at all with their dogs - mostly advertising how big they are and what nice pets that they will make.

"He is already 120lbs and between 29 -30 inches at the shoulder" 
From a description of one of their dogs!

Way too big!

I think that I would pass on this breeder.


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## Emoore

Denise said:


> Good health is more important to me than "titles" any day


Good health alone is more important than good health, intelligence, drive, and biddability? The vast majority of titled dogs are also OFA'd. 
I'm glad you had a good experience and I'm glad you got a good dog. But you'll never convince most of us that someone breeding untitled, oversized, out-of-standard stock is a reputable breeder.


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## Liesje

I would take a mildly dysplastic dog with a great temperament over an OFA Excellent dog with a poor temperament any day of the week.


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## Anja1Blue

Denise said:


> they advertise that because there are people that are looking for "old school" shepherds like I was.. It is appropriate if this is what you want to purchase. Like I said before it is all in your personal taste, and back in the 60's that is what you would find. I love all GSD's so I'm not going to start ripping on one body type over another other... However her Sire OFA excellent and her mother OFA good ... Good health is more important to me than "titles" any day


It would be appropriate if these dogs were in fact "old school" and looked like the dogs from the 60's.But they aren't and they don't - I too am glad you are happy with your girl, but at best these statements are misleading, at worst they are untrue. To me this breeder is simply filling the need for those people who are convinced that bigger is better - and unless a dog is meant to be giant sized we know that isn't true. 
______________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Yeah. Early 70's so close to the 60's...he certainly looked giant to me then, now I see...he was even better than I thought. :wub: My grandma's neighbor's dog King:










Picture?!?! What is going on...


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## EJQ

Sorry to hear of your loss

The fact that they specifically breed "oversized" dogs really bothers me. I always get very nervous when I hear stuff like this.
As for as the lack of info on their website; you would think that even a beginner would fill the site with info and background on each dog.

Based clearly on the info that is available, I think you should check out another breeder.


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## Denise

Ok so it appears that many of you on this site have first hand knowledge as to what I experienced as a child in my neighborhood with 2 different black and tan German Shepherds that belonged to friends of mine in the 60's. Implicating that what I am saying is untrue? What ever for? Why would anyone make up something so goofy? I find these comments to be mean spirited and negative. Why would anyone on this site bash another persons dog? There appears to be too many negative Know it alls on this site for my taste. Good luck to you and all of your perfection ... Makes me wonder how many of you are rail thin Victoria Secret Models ? LOL eeesshhh


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## onyx'girl

In the 60's how tall were you, Denise? A child remembers dogs to be big, because the child is small. I remember Irish setters and Collies that my neighbors had were "huge" but in reality, I was a 35# shorty.
The breed standard is there for a reason, whoever is NOT breeding to it, I don't consider to be a reputable breeder. The GSD has enough issues when breeders are trying to breed to standard, when they focus on the over-sized and low drive or colors that aren't recognized, they are not doing anything to better the breed.


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## Gsdldy

All I know is one of the breedings they already did for this year was Khole to Grace, well if you look Kole is 10 months old, so there is NO way he is OFA'd. This alone screams run to me...


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## codmaster

Denise said:


> Ok so it appears that many of you on this site have first hand knowledge as to what I experienced as a child in my neighborhood with 2 different black and tan German Shepherds that belonged to friends of mine in the 60's. Implicating that what I am saying is untrue? What ever for? Why would anyone make up something so goofy? I find these comments to be mean spirited and negative. Why would anyone on this site bash another persons dog? There appears to be too many negative Know it alls on this site for my taste. Good luck to you and all of your perfection ... Makes me wonder how many of you are rail thin Victoria Secret Models ? LOL eeesshhh


Testy! testy! Testy!

Seriously, Denise you might want to tone it down a bit. Even if some of the folks here (me included) have expressed some doubts about a breeder that you obviously feel very strongly about. And that is fine, if you like the breeder and what their program stands for, then you certainly have that right.

For me, if they are breeding a 10 month old baby that is not a good sign to me. 
Likewise if they are TRYING to breed for a GSD as tall as a Great Dane, that is also a major mark against them in my book. That is way too big for a GSD for a number of reasons. All breeders should be doing their darndest to breed to the standard both in size and temperament, and of course also take into account the health of their dogs. That is what makes breeding dogs so difficult for all those breeders who try to look at all factors involved in breeding the "perfect" GSD.


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## Emoore

Denise said:


> Ok so it appears that many of you on this site have first hand knowledge as to what I experienced as a child in my neighborhood with 2 different black and tan German Shepherds that belonged to friends of mine in the 60's.


Nobody's saying that your neighbors in the 60's didn't have oversized, out-of-standard dogs. We're just saying that they were oversized and faulty (per the standard, being oversized is a fault) just as they are now. And that a responsible breeder doesn't breed for the purpose of dogs with faults. 




Denise said:


> Why would anyone on this site bash another persons dog?


Nobody is bashing your dog. We've all said that we're glad you have her and we're sure she's a great dog and that you must love her very much etc etc. However, when a breeder purposefully breeds against the standard, it's not "bashing" to point that out.


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## AgileGSD

From the start of the breed being developed, they were intended to be "medium sized" working dogs. The original GSDs were actually more likely to be finer boned and smaller than many of the dogs we see today, as well as have less depth of chest (with that, greatly less risk of bloat). When one selects for more height and heavy bone, athletic ability has to be sacrificed to some degree. When GSDs approach or reach giant breed size, their athletic ability will become comparable to other giant breeds. 

I think the selecting for super big GSDs for the pet market has been going on for year now. I have actually had multiple people who were involved in dogs argue with me that GSDs "have gotten smaller", so it is a pretty common misconception that they are supposed to be huge. There are even two GSD "offshoot breeds" that look like a GSD in giant breed size that have developed because people want huge GSDs: Shiloh Shepherds (ISSDC, Inc - International Shiloh Shepherd Dog Club, Inc.) and King Shepherds (Welcome to The Amercian King Shepherd Club Website).


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## Liesje

Also at shows the judges are being quite strict on size. I've known people to come to a show and then withdraw an adult dog after hearing the judge comment on the size of some of the earlier dogs. Some judges are even known for being super strict on size.


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## ag512bbi

I have a 1.5year old male from her male "Zack" and @ 11mo. old he was 30" 133lbs. NO exaggeration!!!! Everybody has different preferences. I like fast cars, you might like Big luxury cars or even Hybreds?????? If I were to buy a Mercedes, I would choose a conv. ...and you? So No knocking a certain breeder til you actually have had a bad experience with them. I get offended when I see people knocking BIG shepherds. IMO, I can't stand the little puny shepherds. But, I never expressed it. Cause it's not my dog and I don't care what other people have as long as it doesnt effect me. Sorry, had to vent!


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## Liesje

There's nothing wrong with giant dogs or people preferring but that's why you get a Great Dane or Newfoundland. I personally have never seen a 133 lb police dog, Schutzhund dog, herding dog, or service dog. I believe that form follows function and to me it's more than coincidental that the most athletic and versatile German shepherds are within the size standard.


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## codmaster

ag512bbi said:


> I have a 1.5year old male from her male "Zack" and @ 11mo. old he was 30" 133lbs. NO exaggeration!!!! Everybody has different preferences. I like fast cars, you might like Big luxury cars or even Hybreds?????? If I were to buy a Mercedes, I would choose a conv. ...and you? So No knocking a certain breeder til you actually have had a bad experience with them. I get offended when I see people knocking BIG shepherds. IMO, I can't stand the little puny shepherds. But, I never expressed it. Cause it's not my dog and I don't care what other people have as long as it doesnt effect me. Sorry, had to vent!


Way to big for a GSD!

When you got your Mercedes what would you have thought if it wouldn't get over 70 mph? I suspect that you would have "EXPECTED" it to go a lot faster and be able to sustain the speed for a long trip! Why? Because it is a MERCEDES! A particular breed with standard expectations!

Same with a GSD or any other pure bred dog - you expect certain characteristics both mental and physical! That is why we have breed standards! And good concientious breeders do their dardest to live up to the breed standard! Not to create a new dog breed with different characteristics. We already have numerous Giant breeds - the GSD is not one of them!


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## Anja1Blue

ag512bbi said:


> I have a 1.5year old male from her male "Zack" and @ 11mo. old he was 30" 133lbs. NO exaggeration!!!! Everybody has different preferences. I like fast cars, you might like Big luxury cars or even Hybreds?????? If I were to buy a Mercedes, I would choose a conv. ...and you? So No knocking a certain breeder til you actually have had a bad experience with them. I get offended when I see people knocking BIG shepherds. IMO, I can't stand the little puny shepherds. But, I never expressed it. Cause it's not my dog and I don't care what other people have as long as it doesnt effect me. Sorry, had to vent!


And with a Mercedes convertible you would get a standard size for that car - not a gigantic overblown model. I think you can buy whatever size dog you want, but when a GSD gets way over what was considered to be correct for this particular breed, in my mind that ceases to be a GERMAN Shepherd Dog and becomes something else entirely. It more closely resembles a Shiloh or King Shepherd, so perhaps it could be incorporated into that category, or we should think of another name for it. 
__________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Wolfiesmom

I think some of them look fat. Some of them look unkempt, and some just don't look right to me. I think you need to see them in person to decide.


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## tatiana

There's so much wrong here that it doesn't bear repeating.

I'd close the book on this "breeder."


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## Anja1Blue

tatiana said:


> There's so much wrong here that it doesn't bear repeating.
> 
> I'd close the book on this "breeder."


Plus the OP long ago left the building........
_____________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD


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## ag512bbi

tatiana said:


> There's so much wrong here that it doesn't bear repeating.
> 
> I'd close the book on this "breeder."


 You are so wrong.


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## Whitedog404

Very sorry about your loss.
Interesting. These dogs are all over the place, looks-wise. Other than unhealthy looking, over-sized dogs, I'm not sure what they're breeding for, exactly. They're pretty, but the photos remind me of a list I'd see at a GSD rescue page, not a breeder's. Just my opinion. I'd look elsewhere.


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## Whitedog404

* Denise: Good luck to you and all of your perfection ... Makes me wonder how many of you are rail thin Victoria Secret Models ?*

I wasn't bred to be a Victoria Secret model, but I have a choice whether I want to look like one or not. These dogs don't have that option and, in my opinion, and that's what the poster requested, they're being bred for a singular purpose, well, two purposes: Gargantuan size and money.


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## Whitedog404

Oh, and then there's this link at Windy Acres:
Cheri's Preferred Puppies - Hamilton OH Cheap Puppies And Dogs For Sale Non Shedding Puppies AKC Registered Dog Breeder

Hamilton Ohio Cheap Puppies And Dogs For Sale


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## TED MEYER

Hello, I've talked with the breeder, Julie Walsh, and she does not breed for show or contests. Temperment, easy going, and of course healthy are a few positives to start with. Yes large, straight back is her style to. I do not like to see the videos of dogs that can't walk right because they were bred for a certain look! What is the pride in that? I feel dumb not knowing German Shepherds used to have a straight back.


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## horsegirl

along with everyone elses opinions, I think they lack pigment , I saw two males on thier website , nether had nice coloring.


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## TED MEYER

A pretty dog, or a good one ?


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## Samba

How long have you been involved in the breed, Ted?


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## TED MEYER

Hi, I was fortunate enough to have raised a GS from eight weeks to afew days short of fourteen.


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## TED MEYER

Fourteen years I should have typed!


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## MonkeyGirl

*Didn't expect to see this thread - ouch!*

My Maggie is from Windy Acres. She is a beautiful, smart AKC registered girl. Both of her parents were OFA'd Good and I have a 2 year guarantee on her hips. She is a perfect fit for our family - However - we were not looking to get into competitions. If you just want a smart, gentle, giant dog who will steal your heart - then I would recommend this breeder. 

This is our second BIG German Shepherd. My first was Lucky who was pure joy covered with hair. He died in June and my chest still fills like someone slammed me with a hammer.

My husband was worried and suggested we get another Shepherd.
We looked at a lot of Shepherds and almost rescued one (someone beat us to him). Then my husband found Windy Acres. Zak looked like our Lucky and we called Julie and told her about Lucky and sent her a picture. She was extremely kind and told us we could have first pick of the males and that we were welcome out any time to check out her dogs. We were put on the list for October. 
It felt like I was replacing Lucky. So after a lot of talking - we decided to get a girl. We called Julie and she told us she had six girls available in July. We got our first pick - a beautiful plush coat.


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## Lakl

If I wanted a "gentle giant" I would buy a St Bernard. If you look up the breed standard and the functions it was bred to perform, you would understand why so many are bothered by the "gentle giants". It has nothing to do with competing or showing. These dogs were meant to be medium sized to serve the various purposes they were bred for. If someone took a thoroughbred horse and bred it to be short, stocky, and slow, but was gentle enough for a 6 yr old to handle, would you still consider it a fine example of the breed?


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## MonkeyGirl

Two of the dogs in Maggie's litter are going to be service dogs - as many are.
They still have the intelligence, loyalty and disposition to make them great working dogs. Maggie seems to have good herding instincts (as I was told by the trainer).
They're not big couch potatoes but they do tend to be gentle and they seem require a lot of belly rubs.
FYI:
Strongheart was a 125 pound dog - as was Maggie's father.
Go take a look at Rin Tin Tin - he looks a little different with his straight back - doesn't he?


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## Lakl

MonkeyGirl said:


> FYI:
> Strongheart was a 125 pound dog - as was Maggie's father.
> Go take a look at Rin Tin Tin - he looks a little different with his straight back - doesn't he?


 
Here is my Showline dog:










She's not an "old world" GSD, whatever that is. Do you see a curve in her back? She's 60 pounds, which is right within the standard for a female GSD. YOU take a look at Rin Tin Tin, and tell me if he looks like a 125lb dog to you??




























I skimmed the website, and I'm sorry, I don't care how "big boned" a dog is. When the folds in his neck and shoulders overlap his collar, he's not at a healthy weight...


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## Catu

More old style German Shepherds

v













































More information in Size Development of the GSD:
vhttp://www.gsdinfo.co.uk/Breed%20Info/SIZE%20DEVELOPMENT%20OF%20THE.htm

If you take a look at the first chart, you will notice that oversized dogs were actually scarcer in the '60 than today.


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## MonkeyGirl

Lakl, your dog is beautiful and her coat is absolutely gorgeous! 
Braveheart was 125 pounds. 
Rin Tin Tin had a straight back.
I was just saying - there's variety in the breed. 
AND - I apologize because I think THAT hits a raw nerve on people who are diligently working to maintain a beautiful line. 
We can refer to my Maggie as a Sasquatch Shepherd - I don't mind.

Catu - thanks for the link - very interesting.


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## codmaster

There is a standard for the GSD (and all other dogs) for a reason! Any size, color, angulation or other conformation GSD can be a great pet; but only those approaching (at least) conforming to ALL aspects of the breed standard should even be considered to be bred!


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## MonkeyGirl

So how do you feel about WHITE shepherds - like the one on this site's LOGO? Should they be allowed to breed? 
Here's an interesting article for those of you who love White Shepherds.
White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd 

All I can say is that if you want a nice, smart, healthy dog - this breeder OFA's or X-rays all of her dogs. She is very strict on cleanliness and will go the extra mile to keep her dogs healthy. She also follows up on the pups after they leave to make sure owner and dog are doing well. You leave with a 2 year guarantee. The dogs are a little pricey so that's a consideration. I do have to say the dogs also look better in person - then they do on the web site.

If you are looking for current breed standard - obviously this breeder is not for you. And if you're a dog NAZI - this breeder will offend you.


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## Danielle609

I love white shepherds,I think that they are beautiful. Unfortunately I do not think they should be bred. Like I said they are beautiful...not trying to start a debate... I don't know of any reputable breeders that breed for white. Reputable breeders do not breed for color.


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## GSDElsa

MonkeyGirl said:


> If you are looking for *current *breed standard - obviously this breeder is not for you. And if you're a dog NAZI - this breeder will offend you.


Current breed standard? The breed standard has never and will never include dogs that are 125 pounds.


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## MonkeyGirl

My BIG Shepherd saved a child from two dogs at the dog park while some very scared parents stood there frozen. He backed a drunk away from me without having to touch the guy. He came from my daughter's abusive boyfriend and was a healing bridge between me and my daughter - she had some anger issues after almost being strangled by the jerk.
I can tell you the world was a better place because he was in it and the pain of his absence is so wretched that it's almost unbearable.
I don't know how to argue with you insensitive purists because your dogs are beautiful. I'm done here.


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## Danielle609

MonkeyGirl said:


> My BIG Shepherd saved a child from two dogs at the dog park while some very scared parents stood there frozen. He backed a drunk away from me without having to touch the guy. He came from my daughter's abusive boyfriend and was a healing bridge between me and my daughter - she had some anger issues after almost being strangled by the jerk.
> I can tell you the world was a better place because he was in it and the pain of his absence is so wretched that it's almost unbearable.
> I don't know how to argue with you insensitive purists because your dogs are beautiful. I'm done here.


Nobody is arguing that your dog isn't a good dog. There are plenty of GREAT dogs that do not meet the standard. 2 dogs that are of the standard can produce ones that are not. I think the point people are trying to get across is that they should be placed in pet only homes. That is all. No one is trying to cut down your dog. Plenty of people here have GSD's that do not fit in the standard and they love them just the same. But at the same time, your dog saving the girls have nothing to do with her size. I am sure she would have done the same thing no matter what. Just my 2 cents...


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## Danielle609

MonkeyGirl said:


> I don't know how to argue with you insensitive purists because your dogs are beautiful. I'm done here.


I find this statement ridiculous. All Dogs, especially GSD's are beautiful whether or not they fit into the standard! No one is calling your dog ugly!


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## Catu

MonkeyGirl said:


> So how do you feel about WHITE shepherds - like the one on this site's LOGO? Should they be allowed to breed?
> Here's an interesting article for those of you who love White Shepherds.
> White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


I have no problem with white shepherds, since white is out of standard they created a new breed, the Berger Blanc Suisse, and everybody is happy. If someone wants a 125 lbs dogs that resembles a GSD I don't have a problem with that either, but as a breeder you have to be honest and admit that if you breed out of the standard of a breed, you are not breeding that breed. You can say you are breeding King Shepherds and everybody is happy again.

If I want a short legged German Shepherd Dog, am I in my right to do with the standard what I want because it is what I like? Wouldn't it be a Corgi with GSD colors? What if someone wants GSD with floppy ears, and toy GSDs and GSDs with boxer muzzles? Do we have to applaud every breeder who has a different "taste"?

BTW, you don't need oversized and fat GSDs to have a straight backs, just stay away of the show ring. Almost all working line GSDs have straight backs.


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## Lakl

@ Monkeygirl - I think you are misinterpreting the comments behind the oversized GSD. Please do not take this as a dig at your particular dog. The comments are not geared towards the dog themselves. I'm sure your girl is gorgeous and if you are happy with her, then that's all that matters. I think, and also speaking for myself, that these comments are geared towards the breeders that are intentially breeding for this size.

The OP asked "What do you think about this breeder?", and as far as the standard and what GSD's were meant to be bred for, they are not breeding for those purposes. One thing I noted on the site is how it is mentioned that the dam CHOSE her sire. This is the first time I've seen that stated on a breeder's website. Reputable and knowledgeable breeders usually spend a lot of time carefully selecting the dam and sire. They decide based on temperaments, conformation, strengths, and weaknesses knowing what each dog brings to the table and how each dog's traits will contribute to producing an exceptional litter. Saying that you let the dam choose seems a little absurd to me? What traits, goals, or abilities is the breeding producing for outside of oversized dogs?


----------



## Emoore

MonkeyGirl said:


> My BIG Shepherd saved a child from two dogs at the dog park while some very scared parents stood there frozen. He backed a drunk away from me without having to touch the guy. He came from my daughter's abusive boyfriend and was a healing bridge between me and my daughter - she had some anger issues after almost being strangled by the jerk.
> I can tell you the world was a better place because he was in it and the pain of his absence is so wretched that it's almost unbearable.
> I don't know how to argue with you insensitive purists because your dogs are beautiful. I'm done here.


Monkeygirl, I feel where you're coming from. My heart dog, the best dog I've ever had, was a floppy-eared German Shepherd. The world was a better place when he was in it and even though it's been over a year, I still cry occasionally because I miss him so much. He was a blazingly intelligent, incredibly beautiful, and the sweetest dog you'd ever hope to meet. He was also out of standard because of his floppy ears. Didn't keep him from being a wonderful dog, but it *did* mean he should't be bred. That's all anybody's saying. Our out-of-standard Shepherds are wonderful dogs and great pets, but just like nobody should be breeding for the purpose of floppy-eared Shepherds, nobody should be breeding for the purpose of oversized Shepherds.


----------



## codmaster

MonkeyGirl said:


> My BIG Shepherd saved a child from two dogs at the dog park while some very scared parents stood there frozen. He backed a drunk away from me without having to touch the guy. He came from my daughter's abusive boyfriend and was a healing bridge between me and my daughter - she had some anger issues after almost being strangled by the jerk.
> I can tell you the world was a better place because he was in it and the pain of his absence is so wretched that it's almost unbearable.
> I don't know how to argue with you insensitive purists because your dogs are beautiful. I'm done here.


 
great pet it sounds like!


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## jas8099

I know this was posted forever ago and the decision was probably already made about whether or not to look into Walsh's but I thought I would share my experience. Really only those who have owned or visited Julie and seen her dogs should be commenting on this thread, everyone else who is commenting are just giving their opinions. Take that for what its worth (free!). 

I purchased a top of the line, schH3 (both parents, grandparents,etc) from a very reputable breeder who charged $4000 for puppies...Triumps Gucci lineage. He was a male, supposed to be top pick. I brought him home and this dog don't get me wrong was HIGHLY intelligent but also had issues. I had him for a total of 6 months and he would not crate train, potty train, obedience train, and he had excited peeing issues. I took him to SEVERAL trainers and did everything they asked me to do. I also took him everywhere with me and dog parks every weekend. I spent so much money on that dog and I tried soo hard to do whatever I could for him but I had enough. Every trainer and my vet said that they had never seen a GSD with so many issues. I know it was not something I was doing wrong because I have another dog (Golden retriever who is 6 years old with no issues and is fully trained) so I contacted the breeder and graciously they took him back and gave me most of my money back. Now, I know that his case was highly unusual for a GSD and most will not have that bad of an experience. 

So needless to say I was very scared and timid when I decided (along with my family) to look for another GSD just recently. We looked everywhere and researched HEAVILY, even more heavily than the first time. We went to several breeders and did "interviews". We honestly were not going to look at Julie's dogs but something kept telling me just to take a look. I drove 5 hours to IA and looked at ZAK and Anna's litter and was amazed at the intelligence and gentleness of her dogs. We took some time to think and weigh the pros and cons on buying an "oversized GSD". In the end we decided to take a leap and go for it and it was the best decision we made. We have a long haired little girl we named Luci. She literally is the sweetest dog ever! She is so incredibly smart, she crate trained on the first night (no accidents) and had ONE accident on the floor in the house and that was it. She is only 9 1/2 weeks old and already heels wonderfully and sits on command. We plan on enrolling her in obedience classes and just know she will excel. We are just thoroughly impressed so far. We would recommend visiting Julie and her dogs before making any judgements. She also gives a guarantee on her dogs for hips/elbows. Hope that helps.


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## Emoore

Hey jas8099 I'm curious because this happens a lot-- someone will resurrect an ancient thread to comment on a breeder, either positive or negative. How did you find this in the first place? I've always wondered how people get here and their first post is on a very old thread. Just curious.


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## jas8099

Back when we were researching breeders I would poke around on here and read threads just to get other people's experiences. Today I looked up Walsh's on here just because and found this thread. I wanted to share my experience with others that today may look at this site when researching GSD's and breeders as I did. I just felt as if Walsh's was getting bashed by people that had no idea because they have never been to Julie's or seen her dogs.


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## LaRen616

jas8099 said:


> I just felt as if Walsh's was getting bashed by people that had no idea because they have never been to Julie's or seen her dogs.


I do not need to meet her or see her dogs in person, I see her dogs on her website, I read what SHE wrote about them.

The German Shepherd is supposed to be a medium sized breed not an oversized, long coated, fat, lazy dog. 

I do not see any titles on her website and I do not see any OFA ratings either.

I bought my male from a byb because I didn't know any better at the time, he is larger than the standard, there is concern for his hips and he has had some medical issues.

I would never buy from a byb again.


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## codmaster

jas8099 said:


> Back when we were researching breeders I would poke around on here and read threads just to get other people's experiences. Today I looked up Walsh's on here just because and found this thread. I wanted to share my experience with others that today may look at this site when researching GSD's and breeders as I did. I just felt as if Walsh's was getting bashed by people that had no idea because they have never been to Julie's or seen her dogs.


I just looked at the web site for this breeder. 

I didn't notice anything there about what the owners actually do with their dogs - do they do anything with them (i.e. ScH, AKC obedience, flyball, rally, SAR, K9 - anything at all in the training/performance venues)?

or are they just breeding GSD's to be "Oversize" family pets?

Other than being very friendly pets - have the owners said why they chose the particular mother and sire to breed - other than obviously they own both of the parents? (That is a lot cheaper of course).

Just curious.


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## Castlemaid

jas8099, the important thing is that you are happy with your pup and the pup has a good home. Glad you have had a good experience. Feel free to introduce yourself and share pics and stories, you puppy sounds adorable! 

Warning to all to avoid breeder bashing, and to word posts as personal opinions that educate, and do not attack.


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## Emoore

Castlemaid said:


> jas8099, the important thing is that you are happy with your pup and the pup has a good home. Glad you have had a good experience. Feel free to introduce yourself and share pics and stories, you puppy sounds adorable!
> .


Yes, please stick around, introduce yourself and your dog, share pics, etc. Welcome to the forum.


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## jas8099

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals 

above is ZAK (sire)
Below is Anna (dam)
Big GSD

I am curious...why does everyone think that pictures are good indicators of a dog being fat and Lazy? I assure you that seeing them in person they are NOT not not fat and certainly not lazy. In fact, ZAK was lean and full of spunk. Good grief. I just get frustrated because the hair on GSD makes them in pictures look a lot bigger than in person. And another question...who on this board is actually titling there dogs? Does anyone have a titled dog? Are your dogs family dogs? Police dogs? Don't get the whole thing because unless you are going to title the dog, use it in competition, or if you are in police work...WHY does it matter? 

Thanks for the welcome for those who did so. I will post some pictures once I get some uploaded, I have a few good ones of her with my girls. They just love her to death.


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## Emoore

If you stick around and give us a chance, I think you'll learn why so many of us are passionate about breeding to the standard. Please keep in mind that while many of us don't think that untitled, out of standard dogs should be *bred*, many of us own untitled, out of standard dogs that are great pets and that we love very much. Please don't take criticism of your breeder as bashing of your dog.


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## Lakl

I'd be a llittle concerned that the dam has been bred before she is even 2 years old, but that's just me...


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## jas8099

I definately understand and respect having a passion for something. I just simply wanted to share my experience. With my experience I guess I have seen both sides of the fence and I just think "the standard" is not always the best way to go. I understand choosing that for titling, breeding, police work, etc. but if you are simply looking for a fantastic dog to raise with a family that is still highly intelligent I believe looking outside of "the standard" is completely reasonable and worth doing.


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## Emoore

OK I have a question for you. And this get debated a lot around here  The Standard is a written document-- The Constitution of GSDs-- that lays out the guidelines for size, color, temperament, etc. Everything a German Shepherd should and should not be is laid out in an accepted written standard that has guided breeders for a century. While, like The Constitution, some things are open to interpretation, other things like size and color are not. 

So my question is this. Let's say I want to breed German Shepherds, but I only like whites, and I'm partial to floppy ears, and I live in an apartment so I need a smaller dog. So I start breeding the smallest white GSDs I can find to floppy eared GSDs, and I develop a bloodline of pure white, floppy-eared 45lb German Shepherds. Who is to say I'm not breeding German Shepherds? Since looking outside the standard is completely reasonable and worth doing, why not?


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## jas8099

I think the standard is just that, a standard. There are plenty of AKC registered GSD breeders out there that their dogs fit "the standard" but the breeder is either inexperienced or in it for profit. I think that would be the case with your scenario, you would be inexperienced and breeding for a specific trait and you have no idea how it will pan out. Julie has been breeding for YEARS and years. She has pages upon pages of testimonials. She knows what she is doing and has the proof from her customers.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

I looked at them when I was first thinking about getting a GSD. I live in Iowa, and I'm not gonna lie I like the larger size. However, after sticking around here for a while, and learning a bit more I kinda get where people are coming from. I personally don't have a problem with an over sized dog that looks like a german shepherd, has a soft temperament, and is not really suited for the types of jobs that german shepherds were bred to do. I just don't think they should call them German shepherds. The argument is that even dogs bred to be to the standard don't always make it, are they not GSDs? Well I would say the difference is in deliberately breeding against the standard. It would seem she has certain criteria of her own, her own standard of sorts, and I don't have anything wrong with that. I think she has beautiful dogs, and to me she doesn't seem like a BYB. I don't have enough info to know that for sure, but it would seem she takes her job as a breeder very seriously. I just don't think she's striving to breed dogs that can do the things german shepherds are supposed to be able to do. So my advice to her and breeders like her, is to come up with a standard, and work towards developing that new, distinct breed if they're really passionate about it. 

Congrats on your pup by the way


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## jas8099

I set my profile picture and for some reason its not showing up...any advice?


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## Castlemaid

jas8099 said:


> I set my profile picture and for some reason its not showing up...any advice?


Go to "edit Avatar" to get a pic show up under your user name. The Profile Pic is different.


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## Emoore

jas8099 said:


> I set my profile picture and for some reason its not showing up...any advice?


Hmmmm. . . did you downsize it? I think it's 80x80 pixels max.


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## jas8099

Got it! Thanks for the help guys..it was the Avatar.  I have way better pics of her but that will have to wait until I get batteries for may camera...it dies on me after I took the ones of her with my girls.


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## jas8099

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I looked at them when I was first thinking about getting a GSD. I live in Iowa, and I'm not gonna lie I like the larger size. However, after sticking around here for a while, and learning a bit more I kinda get where people are coming from. I personally don't have a problem with an over sized dog that looks like a german shepherd, has a soft temperament, and is not really suited for the types of jobs that german shepherds were bred to do. I just don't think they should call them German shepherds. The argument is that even dogs bred to be to the standard don't always make it, are they not GSDs? Well I would say the difference is in deliberately breeding against the standard. It would seem she has certain criteria of her own, her own standard of sorts, and I don't have anything wrong with that. I think she has beautiful dogs, and to me she doesn't seem like a BYB. I don't have enough info to know that for sure, but it would seem she takes her job as a breeder very seriously. I just don't think she's striving to breed dogs that can do the things german shepherds are supposed to be able to do. So my advice to her and breeders like her, is to come up with a standard, and work towards developing that new, distinct breed if they're really passionate about it.
> 
> Congrats on your pup by the way


I do agree with you partially. I think your 100% correct about the fact that she has set her own standard of sorts but I don't think her dogs cannot be classified as GSD, maybe just not "standard" GSD. They are AKC and not a mix. I have a 6 year old Golden retriever who is AKC but not "standard", she is quite a bit smaller than average but still has the golden temperament and looks just like a golden. She is a full blown "retriever" as well, she will go after a ball for hours. So does that mean she should not be called a golden retriever? What should she be called? Just food for thought


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## JakodaCD OA

congrats on your new puppy, may she give you many years of happiness


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

jas8099 said:


> I do agree with you partially. I think your 100% correct about the fact that she has set her own standard of sorts but I don't think her dogs cannot be classified as GSD, maybe just not "standard" GSD. They are AKC and not a mix. I have a 6 year old Golden retriever who is AKC but not "standard", she is quite a bit smaller than average *but still has the golden temperament and looks just like a golden. She is a full blown "retriever" as well, she will go after a ball for hours.* So does that mean she should not be called a golden retriever? What should she be called? Just food for thought


So basically she's just a golden that got the smaller end of the gene pool. That's not the issue with these others it seems. It seems they don't have the correct temperament or drives to really be considered GSDs and are being purposely bred that way. So while your golden is everything a golden should be, she's just a little short; these guys are out of standard size wise (on purpose) AND don't have correct temperament, drive, working ability. So the question would be what makes them truly german shepherds other than somewhere back far enough there was a german shepherd in their lineage that had those things? Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from, and I'm sure she has fantastic dogs. I'm just not sure they're great german shepherds. I don't have the best example of the breed myself, so don't think I'm doggin' yah because I have some super shepherd that sleeps with me at night (I Also had an out of standard golden. He was way too big, but was all retriever, temperament, drive, everything) . I'm just saying the standard is what makes it the breed it is. No standards=no breeds.

By the way, your pup is soooooo cute!!! I'm having a huge puppy envy attack lol!


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## jas8099

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> So basically she's just a golden that got the smaller end of the gene pool. That's not the issue with these others it seems. It seems they don't have the correct temperament or drives to really be considered GSDs and are being purposely bred that way. So while your golden is everything a golden should be, she's just a little short; these guys are out of standard size wise (on purpose) AND don't have correct temperament, drive, working ability. So the question would be what makes them truly german shepherds other than somewhere back far enough there was a german shepherd in their lineage that had those things? Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from, and I'm sure she has fantastic dogs. I'm just not sure they're great german shepherds. I don't have the best example of the breed myself, so don't think I'm doggin' yah because I have some super shepherd that sleeps with me at night (I Also had an out of standard golden. He was way too big, but was all retriever, temperament, drive, everything) . I'm just saying the standard is what makes it the breed it is. No standards=no breeds.
> 
> By the way, your pup is soooooo cute!!! I'm having a huge puppy envy attack lol!



Thanks! She is a cutie pie 

So for arguments sake....

My previous post on this thread was about my experience with a full blooded, top of the line, from an amazing lineage (Triumps Gucci) GSD. We got him at 10 weeks and had him until he was almost 8 months old. We took him to several trainers and the vet and they all said he was not like any other GSD they had seen. He had no confidence despite my best efforts (taking him EVERYWHERE with me, dog parks, and exposing him to the neighborhood pets/people as well). He was bred to be a "standard GSD" in fact I would say bred to be above average. This dog had the following traits: would NOT crate train, nervous/excited peeing, not trainable, highly intelligent, afraid of other dogs..etc. Would you say he was not a "standard" GSD? Even though he was bred to be so and from his lineage you can see clear examples of this? 

I think Julie breeds clearly 100% German Shepherd dogs, they are not mixed. I do think she chooses to breed the specific traits such as large size, laid back, and intelligence. They may not be 100% to the "T" what Germans are known for but they are none the less GSD's. No matter where you get a dog from you really are taking a chance, you cannot guarantee you are going to get a perfect to the standard dog no matter who you get it from IMO due to my experience.


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## LaRen616

jas8099 said:


> No matter where you get a dog from you really are taking a chance, you cannot guarantee you are going to get a perfect to the standard dog no matter who you get it from IMO due to my experience.


That is completely true but by going through a reputable breeder you are stacking the odds in your favor.


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## LaRen616

Jas

I am sorry I was so rude yesterday, I was having a bad day and I turned into a beast.


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## Emoore

jas8099 said:


> I think Julie breeds clearly 100% German Shepherd dogs, they are not mixed. I do think she chooses to breed the specific traits such as large size, laid back, and intelligence. They may not be 100% to the "T" what Germans are known for but they are none the less GSD's.


See, this is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. And that's ok.  I don't think and never said that her dogs are mixes. I think she is breeding pure German Shepherds, just breeding them specifically to go against the written standards of what a GSD should be. To me, just like the 10 commandments arent the 10 suggestions, the standard isn't just a suggestion of what you might want to consider when breeding Shepherds. It's what a GSD should be. Period. I don't understand why you would decide to devote your life to a specific breed when you don't like what that breed is supposed to be and was designed to be for centuries. 

If you like large, laid-back dogs, why not just breed a dog that's supposed to be large and laid back like Leonbergers, Shiloh or King Shepherds, St. Bernards, Mastiffs, etc? Why take a dog that's been engineered for a century to be medium-sized, aloof, possessing appropriate aggression, and driven to work, and make it into something it's not?


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## LaRen616

Emoore said:


> See, this is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. And that's ok.  I don't think and never said that her dogs are mixes. I think she is breeding pure German Shepherds, just breeding them specifically to go against the written standards of what a GSD should be. To me, just like the 10 commandments arent the 10 suggestions, *the standard isn't just a suggestion of what you might want to consider when breeding Shepherds. It's what a GSD should be. Period. I don't understand why you would decide to devote your life to a specific breed when you don't like what that breed is supposed to be and was designed to be for centuries*.
> 
> If you like large, laid-back dogs, why not just breed a dog that's supposed to be large and laid back like Leonbergers, Shiloh or King Shepherds, St. Bernards, Mastiffs, etc? Why take a dog that's been engineered for a century to be medium-sized, aloof, possessing appropriate aggression, and driven to work, and make it into something it's not?


This post is perfect! 

Wonderful post Emoore and I completely agree with you 100%.


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## jas8099

Emoore said:


> See, this is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. And that's ok.  I don't think and never said that her dogs are mixes. I think she is breeding pure German Shepherds, just breeding them specifically to go against the written standards of what a GSD should be. To me, just like the 10 commandments arent the 10 suggestions, the standard isn't just a suggestion of what you might want to consider when breeding Shepherds. It's what a GSD should be. Period. I don't understand why you would decide to devote your life to a specific breed when you don't like what that breed is supposed to be and was designed to be for centuries.
> 
> If you like large, laid-back dogs, why not just breed a dog that's supposed to be large and laid back like Leonbergers, Shiloh or King Shepherds, St. Bernards, Mastiffs, etc? Why take a dog that's been engineered for a century to be medium-sized, aloof, possessing appropriate aggression, and driven to work, and make it into something it's not?


You are right I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.  

However, I have yet to hear any comments about the past experience I had with a "standard GSD".....he was from a reputable breeder, she bred Gucci's lineage. 

LaRen...totally fine, I really don't get my feelings hurt easily and enjoy hearing people's opinions. 

Jamiee


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## LaRen616

jas8099 said:


> However, I have yet to hear any comments about the past experience I had with a "standard GSD".....he was from a reputable breeder, she bred Gucci's lineage.


Is this the kennel where you got your GSD from?

VA1 Triumphs Gucci Universal Sieger


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## Emoore

jas8099 said:


> You are right I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.
> 
> However, I have yet to hear any comments about the past experience I had with a "standard GSD".....he was from a reputable breeder, she bred Gucci's lineag


Hey, not every breeder of "standard" GSDs is perfect either. We have people on the forum who have had wonderful experiences with mixes and shelter pets and horrible experiences with expensive dogs from well-regarded breeders. It happens. They're living animals and there's always a risk when it comes to a living animal. I have a "standard" East German Working line German Shepherd and he's the most amazing, awesome, wonderful dog I've ever seen, much less had the opportunity to own. Many days I wonder how I got so lucky. Then he eats the crepe mytle tree. :crazy: 

My positive experience does not negate your negative one, and your negative experience doesn't invalidate my positive one.


----------



## GSDElsa

jas8099 said:


> My previous post on this thread was about my experience with a full blooded, top of the line, from an amazing lineage (Triumps Gucci) GSD. We got him at 10 weeks and had him until he was almost 8 months old. We took him to several trainers and the vet and they all said he was not like any other GSD they had seen. He had no confidence despite my best efforts (taking him EVERYWHERE with me, dog parks, and exposing him to the neighborhood pets/people as well). He was bred to be a "standard GSD" in fact I would say bred to be above average. This dog had the following traits: would NOT crate train, nervous/excited peeing, not trainable, highly intelligent, afraid of other dogs..etc. Would you say he was not a "standard" GSD? Even though he was bred to be so and from his lineage you can see clear examples of this?


You've given no information as to if people can judge if the breeder you got your dog from is reputable or breeds within the standard, I'm sorry. You gave the "lineage" of ONE dog in your old dog's pedigree. That means nothing. 

I would actually say your previous dog was not within the standard, either. Just because there is one SchH 3 in the pedigree and you were silly enough to pay $4000  for a 10 week old puppy does not mean it's a good dog.

The fact you keep obsessing over your "top lineage" GSD from the one and only "Gucci" tells me that perhaps you got suckered into a good marketing ploy to being with.


----------



## GSDElsa

jas8099 said:


> She is only 9 1/2 weeks old and already heels wonderfully and sits on command.


So you have had the puppy eactly 1.5 weeks?


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## GSDElsa

jas8099 said:


> ...who on this board is actually titling there dogs? Does anyone have a titled dog? Are your dogs family dogs? Police dogs? Don't get the whole thing because unless you are going to title the dog, use it in competition, or if you are in police work...WHY does it matter?
> .


Lots and lots of people on here title their dogs.

And I'll add to your last sentence.."Don't get the whole thing because unless you are going to title the dog, use it in competition, *if you are a BREEDER*, or if you are in police work...WHY does it matter


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## jas8099

LaRen616 said:


> Is this the kennel where you got your GSD from?
> 
> VA1 Triumphs Gucci Universal Sieger



I don't want to bad mouth anyone...that is why I did not want to point the specific kennel out but yes.


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## jas8099

GSDElsa said:


> So you have had the puppy eactly 1.5 weeks?



Well 2 weeks but she has been vastly different in MANY ways so far than my previous experience. She has even been easier to train (thus far) than my golden was when we first got her. My golden took 2 weeks to potty train and crate train. She was stubborn with obedience training as well but is now great.


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## jas8099

GSDElsa said:


> Lots and lots of people on here title their dogs.
> 
> And I'll add to your last sentence.."Don't get the whole thing because unless you are going to title the dog, use it in competition, *if you are a BREEDER*, or if you are in police work...WHY does it matter


That is great, I think it is wonderful if you all have the time/money to do that with your GSD's. I am not trying to pick a fight I just am making a point that if you are looking for a great family pet strictly why does it matter if the GSD fits the standard?


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## Emoore

Well, it's an interesting discussion for sure, and it's ok that we disagree. Certainly nobody is going to change anyone's mind in a single message thread. I will say, however, that having been a member of this forum since 2003, most people come in with the same mindset you have, and if they stick around they change their mind within a year or two. Your results may vary.


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## Emoore

jas8099 said:


> I am not trying to pick a fight I just am making a point that if you are looking for a great family pet strictly why does it matter if the GSD fits the standard?


It doesn't matter that your family pet doesn't fit the standard. What matters is specifically breeding dogs against the standard. 

If you don't like the Constitution, don't live in the U.S. If you don't like the Bible, don't become a Christian. If you don't like the Koran, don't convert to Islam. If you don't like the written, 100-year old standard for German Shepherds, don't breed German Shepherds. 

If there's an out-of-standard dog that you like and want to own and that dog already exists, either in an animal shelter, private home, or wherever, by all means get the dog. No problem with pets big or small, floppy-eared or straight, black and tan or purple. It's the breeding program that we have a problem with.


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## jas8099

GSDElsa said:


> You've given no information as to if people can judge if the breeder you got your dog from is reputable or breeds within the standard, I'm sorry. You gave the "lineage" of ONE dog in your old dog's pedigree. That means nothing.
> 
> I would actually say your previous dog was not within the standard, either. Just because there is one SchH 3 in the pedigree and you were *silly enough to pay $4000  for a 10 week old puppy *does not mean it's a good dog.
> 
> The fact you keep obsessing over your "top lineage" GSD from the one and only "Gucci" tells me that perhaps you got suckered into a good marketing ploy to being with.


Really? Why do you think that is silly? If I have the money and have done my research and believe what I am getting is a quality dog why would it be silly? Especially if it was from a well known and respected breeder. We have 4 children all age 6 and under, my intentions were to find a quality dog that would be intelligent and protective, not aggressive or shy. With shepherds there can be a fine line unless you go to a breeder who knows what they are doing. There of course are no guarantees but we thought we were making a good decision for our family at the time.


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## GSDElsa

Sorry I think that price is outrageous for a pet puppy. You can find excellent show line puppies for jake that. As you learned price is not an indication of quality. It is silly to me no matter how much money one has.


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## jas8099

Emoore said:


> It doesn't matter that your family pet doesn't fit the standard. What matters is specifically breeding dogs against the standard.
> 
> If you don't like the Constitution, don't live in the U.S. If you don't like the Bible, don't become a Christian. If you don't like the Koran, don't convert to Islam. If you don't like the written, 100-year old standard for German Shepherds, don't breed German Shepherds.
> 
> If there's an out-of-standard dog that you like and want to own and that dog already exists, either in an animal shelter, private home, or wherever, by all means get the dog. No problem with pets big or small, floppy-eared or straight, black and tan or purple. It's the breeding program that we have a problem with.



I understand your point. I am not disputing that Julie breeds outside of the "standard" I am just simply saying just because they are outside of that standard does not make them bad GSD's or less quality it just makes them not standard. WE (people) made the "standard".....

Maybe I just have a problem with standards I don't know I have had experience with both sides of the fence so to speak and I just have a problem with many thinking the standard is the best way to go.


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## jas8099

GSDElsa said:


> Sorry I think that price is outrageous for a pet puppy. You can find excellent show line puppies for jake that.* As you learned price is not an indication of quality*. It is silly to me no matter how much money one has.


Yes you are right, but i guess in the same breath you can say that breeding for standard is not always an indication of quality as well then. Just saying. Again, not trying to start a fight...


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## GSDElsa

jas8099 said:


> I understand your point. I am not disputing that Julie breeds outside of the "standard" I am just simply saying just because they are outside of that standard does not make them bad GSD's or less quality it just makes them not standard. *WE (people) made the "standard".....*
> 
> Maybe I just have a problem with standards I don't know I have had experience with both sides of the fence so to speak and I just have a problem with many thinking the standard is the best way to go .


yes, it makes them "BAD GERMAN SHEPHERD BREEDERS" because they are not breeding to the standard--in both conformation or working ability.

"WE" people did not create the standard. The man who *FOUNDED the breed did. *

If this breeder does not want to breed within the standard, they need to stop marketing their dogs as German Shepherds and create their own breed.


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## GSDElsa

jas8099 said:


> Yes you are right, but i guess in the same breath you can say that breeding for standard is not always an indication of quality as well then. Just saying. Again, not trying to start a fight...


You are absolutely making things up  I flat out said you gave no information for someone to judge if your previous breeder is a good one or not. Just because ONE DOG in the pedigree is an SchH 3 does not give anyone enough information to say if YOUR previous breeder breeds good dogs or dogs within the standard. They could all be weak nervebags like the dog you had. In which case that is not at all to the standard.


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## Emoore

jas8099 said:


> Yes you are right, but i guess in the same breath you can say that breeding for standard is not always an indication of quality as well then. Just saying. Again, not trying to start a fight...


I don't think anything is *always* an indication of quality when you're dealing with an infant animal. If you want a sure thing, buy or adopt an adult. Or a stuffed dog. 

A quality breeder does not produce quality puppies 100% of the time. A crappy breeder doesn't produce crappy puppies 100% of the time. 

Windy Acres is probably producing really high-quality "Walsh Shepherds" or whatever you want to call them. But they're lousy German Shepherds.


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## jas8099

GSDElsa said:


> You are absolutely making things up  I flat out said you gave no information for someone to judge if your previous breeder is a good one or not. Just because ONE DOG in the pedigree is an SchH 3 does not give anyone enough information to say if YOUR previous breeder breeds good dogs or dogs within the standard. They could all be weak nervebags like the dog you had. In which case that is not at all to the standard.



Look down a few threads and you will see I did confirm the breeder...

judge for yourself. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *LaRen616*  
_Is this the kennel where you got your GSD from?

VA1 Triumphs Gucci Universal Sieger_


I don't want to bad mouth anyone...that is why I did not want to point the specific kennel but yes.


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## jas8099

Emoore said:


> I don't think anything is *always* an indication of quality when you're dealing with an infant animal. If you want a sure thing, buy or adopt an adult. Or a stuffed dog.
> 
> A quality breeder does not produce quality puppies 100% of the time. A crappy breeder doesn't produce crappy puppies 100% of the time.
> 
> Windy Acres is probably producing really high-quality "Walsh Shepherds" or whatever you want to call them. But they're lousy German Shepherds.



I really don't think there is much point in arguing this anymore because honestly we are both very strong minded and not going to sway so truce. 

I actually do have a stuffed German Shepherd dog. lol. I think my husband bought it when we first got married for me 10 years ago.


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## Emoore

I have a small collection of stuffed German Shepherds. They're great. Never get sick, never pee on the floor, never eat the trees. . . very good dogs. Also they don't eat much.


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## jas8099

Lol! yep that is the way to go right...

Okay one more cute pup pic...


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

Oh my word he's adorable!!!!!!


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## amorican88

I know this thread is over two tears old, but I put a deposit down with Julie and now I am beginning to worry. Anybody have any more recent dealings with this breeder? Don't want to get a puppy that will end up having health problems down the road. 

I would love to hear from anyone with personal experience with Julie @ Windy Acres Shepherds.

Thanks


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## Kayos and Havoc

I don't know anything about these dogs but I will google them and look. Back later.....


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## Kayos and Havoc

If your deposit is refundable I would ask for it back and continue looking. These are not German Shepherds they are horses and they do not even look sound in body. I can find no pedigrees or health check information. If the registered names were posted we could search health data bases at OFA but they are not. I would walk away. I am sorry. 

If you can tell us an approximate location we can help you find a good breeder.


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## Kayos and Havoc

You also might consider starting a new thread to look for a good breeder in your location or consider having a puppy shipped. 

And I forgot to add a welcome to you.


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## Merciel

I have no personal experience with this breeder and have never, to my knowledge, met any of their dogs.

With that said, just looking at the website, this is one that I would stay far, far away from. Even to my untutored eye, these dogs don't look healthy at all.


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## OriginalWacky

I also have no experience with this breeder, but based on the website alone, I'd not consider one of her dogs. However... are you looking for a larger shepherd than standard, to have as simply a pet? Are you willing to possibly face some issues that can arise from dogs purposely bred to be larger? Have you met with her in person and met the parents and found you love them? Have you been able to speak in person with several of her previous puppy buyers and found they are very happy? Maybe even been able to meet some of the previous puppies? Are you able to get any information on how the puppies of previous buyers are doing, and whether or not that are any issues that seem to be cropping up? If you can say yes to all of those, then maybe this might be the pup you want.


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## huntergreen

Merciel said:


> I have no personal experience with this breeder and have never, to my knowledge, met any of their dogs.
> 
> With that said, just looking at the website, this is one that I would stay far, far away from. Even to my untutored eye, these dogs don't look healthy at all.


what is it you are seeing that makes them look unhealthy ? tks


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## Merciel

huntergreen said:


> what is it you are seeing that makes them look unhealthy ? tks


I went back and reread the thread yesterday, and all the observations that people had back in 2010 and 2011 are the same things I'd point out now. It doesn't look like a single thing's changed.

These dogs look uncomfortably overweight to me. I don't just mean big in structure, but fat and unfit. They're all shown sitting or standing; other than a couple of puppy pictures, none of them are shown in movement (and they don't _do_ anything, performance-wise, so naturally there are no pictures of them in action at a show, working, or performance venue). 

Ordinarily the lack of moving pictures would not necessarily be a big deal, but dogs like these, which are touted for hitting 100+ pounds before a year of age... I'd want to see them moving. Gaiting around a show ring, running through the snow on a hiking trail -- show _something_. I want to see them not just as puppies, but at 5, 6, 7 years old. How do they move then?

It bothers me too that the website lists "TN" and "TX" at the top of its splash page, when the kennel itself is in IA; to me that reads as indicative of a commercial breeder. It bothers me that this breeder lists its puppies on NextDayPets (a puppy mill clearance site), apparently listed on PuppyLister.com (a defunct site, so I don't know what that was, but from the name I would guess something similar), and advertises these things on its front page.

For any number of reasons, this is a breeder I would stay away from. Sometimes with the oversized breeders I can at least say "if that's what you want, this is an okay place to find it." This one, just based on the website... I'd pass.


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## RubyTuesday

From all I've heard & read those who have actually dealt with the breeder & own her dogs are VERY VERY HAPPY. This, to me, is the most important thing. Those who have had her GADs rave about them, remark on their excellent health (mental & physical), sound structure, intelligence & genetic obedience. 

Personally, from all that I've seen & read, I think your concerns are unfonded. IF you disagree simply forfeit the deposit & purchase a GSD from the breeder you prefer.

Those dissing this breeder have no personal experience with her or her dogs. Those who do aren't dissing her. Your call as to which opinions you find more meaningful...


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## DaniFani

amorican88 said:


> I know this thread is over two tears old, but I put a deposit down with Julie and now I am beginning to worry. Anybody have any more recent dealings with this breeder? Don't want to get a puppy that will end up having health problems down the road.
> 
> I would love to hear from anyone with personal experience with Julie @ Windy Acres Shepherds.
> 
> Thanks


Below is a link to another thread about a breeder who breeds this "type" of GSD....It's an important thread (I think) because many who created it 4 years ago, came back and shared how their dogs were doing...including hip replacements, stomach issues, pancreas issues, etc...I'm not going to say much, I commented enough in the link below on why I personally don't agree with breeders who breed for the over-sized GSD. I will say, I have looked at this kennel before (I was considering over sized GSD's until others around here educated me...this along with Royalair, Salhaus, Black Magic, etc...I was days away form putting a deposit down on a Salhaus pup), and I just re-visted the site...their top sire is 140 pounds(and they claim he will get BIGGER when "matured")...that's the size of TWO standard female GSD's and almost two males (in standard), that's St.Bernard size. There is no way, physically, a dog that size can meet the demands meant for a GSD. 100 pounds is one thing, but 125, 130, 140!? That is extremely excessive to me and just screams health issues. I'm not even talking temperament, just health. I've gone through the gambit of extreme health issues because of bad breeding, it's terrible. 

I agree with Merciel, the most important thing to me is not a puppy from a pervious owner, but dogs, 6, 7, 8 years old...that's what's so enlightening about the thread below. These are owners with dogs now, not puppies...and most health issues don't crop up until after 3ish years old. I also agree with M, you absolutely must have an out-of-standard, huge, GSD, there are better breeders out there who's dogs at least appear healthy. However, again, I emphasize getting lots of references of owners with OLDER dogs. Good luck! ;-)


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/103016-anyone-have-dog-royalair.html


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## Merciel

RubyTuesday said:


> Those who have had her GADs rave about them, remark on their excellent health (mental & physical), sound structure, intelligence & genetic obedience.


One thing I always wonder about (and I'm not singling any person or dog out here, just making a general observation) is people's basis for comparison when they make such raves.

Early on, I used to be _incredibly_ impressed when people (not on this board) told me about how their 12-week-old puppies knew five commands and were heeling already. I would take those words at face value, look at my totally inadequate mutt monsters, and think "wow! that's an awesome dog! those bloodlines must really be something, and that trainer must be unbelievable too!"

Turns out that what was actually going on there was a _major_ difference in definitions as to what it means for a dog to "know" a command or what constitutes "heeling."

Or, for that matter, what constitutes sound structure, phenomenal intelligence, and/or genetic obedience.

At the risk of outing myself as a snob here (well, I guess we all knew _that_ already), if the consensus opinion in a big thread is that X dogs appear to have poor structure and physical conformation, and that opinion is being voiced by a lot of different people with experience watching and trialing many different dogs in multiple different working and performance venues, and the people saying good things are pet owners with 4-month-old puppies... weeeelll... that tells me something.

I do think you make one really good point, though. The people who posted early in this thread, around 2010 or 2011, and who got dogs from this breeder -- talk to them now. See how their dogs are doing two or three years down the line. Those dogs would still be pretty young, so longterm issues may not be evident, but they should be maturing into adulthood by now and that would give you some actual, concrete information to go on.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I don't think anyone is dissing this breeder. I too have no personal experience with them. But based on the website and the appearance of the dogs, I would not even consider this breeder. I am sure there are happy customers out there but I would not be one of them. She may be a great breeder, but she is still breeding out of standard GSD's. 

1. Breeding out of standard dogs.
2. No way to document health checks.
3, No titles - anywhere. (I am okay with untitled dogs as long as there are some titles within 2 or 3 generations to indicate some ability)
4. Dogs coats look rough and or unkept which to me indicates poor care or health.


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## amorican88

Thank you everyone for your opinions & time. I am beginning to form my own opinion. I do not plan to breed, show, or compete with this dog. It will be a family member. I do like the idea of a large dog, but want it to be as healthy as it can be. 

The issue of being overweight can be controlled with exercise & proper diet. I would still love to hear from ANYONE here who have had personal dealings with Julie and her dogs. PM me if you would like.

I think I will contact her and get some contacts of people who have purchased her pups in the past. 

Looking forward to hearing more opinions and hopefully some personal experiences with this breeder.

Thanks again!


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## WateryTart

I don't know how close you are to Cresco but I was looking in MN, IA, and WI.

I did look at this breeder and promptly dismissed her. So I can't speak to personal experience. But I would recommend going to the website of the GSD club of MSP (can't do links easily from my phone but you could Google), there are some good places to start on their breeders page.


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## wyominggrandma

Just read through this thread. I realize it is over 2 years old, then brought back up. I was not real impressed with the dogs, but the one thing that did not make any sense and would make me run fast and far: she guarantees hips only for SEVERE HD and says that if it is only on one side, then it is not HD but an injury? Will not guarantee for one hip with HD, only two and they have to be rated severe.
So, if you dog ends up with HD mild, or moderate, then her guarantee is not good...
Hmmm, seems a bit strange to me. HD is HD, whether mild, moderate or severe, whether in one hip or not. You don't see OFA listing HD as "good in right hip, moderate in left hip". It is rated as mild, moderate or severe, sometimes hips are worse on one side or the other, but it is still HD.
Bet this is how she gets out of guaranteeing hips.


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## selzer

I have no experience with them, but I think breeders ought to be able to control their dogs.


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## Dainerra

amorican88 said:


> Thank you everyone for your opinions & time. I am beginning to form my own opinion. I do not plan to breed, show, or compete with this dog. It will be a family member. I do like the idea of a large dog, but want it to be as healthy as it can be.
> 
> The issue of being overweight can be controlled with exercise & proper diet. I would still love to hear from ANYONE here who have had personal dealings with Julie and her dogs. PM me if you would like.
> 
> I think I will contact her and get some contacts of people who have purchased her pups in the past.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing more opinions and hopefully some personal experiences with this breeder.
> 
> Thanks again!


yes, to some extent "over-weight" can be controlled by diet and exercise. However, if you own a dog that is over-sized, then the host of problems that may accompany that will limit how much you can exercise. 
People who breed for over-size dogs also tend to breed for lower energy levels which, again, will make it more likely that the dog will be overweight.

It's not simply a matter of "put him on a diet" The bone structure is different. It is a bigger dog, period. 
I would not want opinions only from "pet" people. I would want to talk to people who have TRAINED their dog. That have done obedience. That have a dog that is more than a couch or yard decoration.
You want to talk to people who not only bought a puppy last year or even a few months ago. Talk to someone who bought their dog 4,5, 10 years ago. Did the dog develop issues in its old age? Health problems like arthritis, hip issues, DM, etc?

You can find a dog that is over-sized without going to a breeder who purposefully produces them. It happens, just as it does will all other living things. Look at the threads on how to find a good breeder, find someone that you like and tell them you are interested in a slightly larger dog.


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## lhczth

I think this thread has run its course. We have had the large dog discussions before and they go no where. 

OP, check out the breeder thoroughly (just like you should all breeders) and with eyes wide open. If your gut tells you to look elsewhere, do so and vice-verse.


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