# Things to look out for in potential puppy buyers



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Breeders, lets have a little fun and help anyone new at this. Lets make a list of red flags for breeders when considering potential puppy buyers. I'll start but the list is by no means complete.

1. Anyone who changes their story mid stream.

2. People who explain how their last eight dogs were "stupid."

3. People who are interested in the color, the registration, and whether it will be full registration, and nothing else. 

4. When discussing eight week old puppies, people asking if they are trained.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

As far as your #3 goes, if the person is interested in showing their dog, then those things should be taken into account as well.. I will also add to the list: 5. People only interested in "BIG" GSD's 6. People only interested in "protective GSD's"


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

# 4 cracks me up!! Can't imagine, but know they must be out there.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

If there is a trained 8 week old GSD puppy out there... SEND THEM HERE!! Heck, send me 10!!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Emails where the first question is, "how much are your german shepard puppies?" are deleted. 

I won't sell to people who use Inivisible fences or who think their dogs need to be able to "run free".


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Emails where the first question is, "how much are your german shepard puppies?" are deleted.
> 
> I won't sell to people who use Inivisible fences or who think their dogs need to be able to "run free".


Interesting re; the invisible fence issue. If a dog is well trained with one, what's the problem? I know that some very high drive dogs will simply withstand the shock and go for it. However, trained properly and if trust is there that the dog respects it, an IF can be very effective in my experience with quite aggressive dogs.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

lhczth said:


> I won't sell to people who use Inivisible fences or who think their dogs need to be able to "run free".


I have neighbors who have a GSD who has bitten several people and still use the invisible fence with this dog and leave him out there unattended. This dog even went after a young kid once and bit him right in the face when one of the kids in the neighborhood got too close to the house. 

Luckily, it's not their dog, it's their sons, so he's only there sometimes, but he's there enough to make me worry. When he's there, i never walk lucy by there because i know something bad will happen.

Those invisible fences drive me nuts and i'd never use them in a million years. Invisible fences with aggressive dogs is just plain stupid.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Relayer said:


> Interesting re; the invisible fence issue. If a dog is well trained with one, what's the problem? I know that some very high drive dogs will simply withstand the shock and go for it. However, trained properly and if trust is there that the dog respects it, an IF can be very effective in my experience with quite aggressive dogs.


Well for one, batteries die and then you've got a dog who can go wherever they want with nothing to stop or restrict him from getting out. They also don't stop anything from getting in with an aggressive dog just waiting to bite. 

There's another dog near my house (about a mile away) got loose because the battery on his collar died and bit a guy who was jogging right in front of the house. The guy who was bit was a lawyer to top it off.

Dogs, especially aggressive dogs, should never be left outside unattended. Fence or no fence.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Lisa, you just mentioned a huge pet peeve of mine!!!

"GERMAN SHEPARD"

UGH!!!

If you want to own the dang breed, then learn how to spell it!!!

GERMAN SHEPHERD!!!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Lisa, you just mentioned a huge pet peeve of mine!!!
> 
> "GERMAN SHEPARD"
> 
> ...


HAHA! this goes for "breeders" too!

I would also add...

People who don't have a stable living situation

Someone with a baby due soon or a newborn


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am going off of my own topic, but the invisible fence thing trips me up too. Maybe you can train your dog -- not an eight week old puppy (visions of a little pup with a gigantic zapper on their collar dragging their head down to the earth), to stay within the confines regardless of deer, coyotes, neighbor dogs, etc. 

But you cannot keep the skunks, raccoons, coyotes, neighborhood jerk's dog out of your yard. So your dog is not protected. And it may be forced to kill or be killed in your yard. 

I prefer a fenced yard. In my experience, the wild things do not jump my fences to drop urine and fecies in my fenced area. I think that this too keeps my dogs safer from diseases like lepto and worms.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I had an invisible fence and that was the problem I had with it other animals can come in -also got a rescue and just couldn't feel comfortable using the shock collar on her


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## jmopaso (Nov 27, 2008)

I know this thead is a bit dated, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents on invisible fence. Firstly I do not think it is appropriate in all situations. Neighborhodd/sub division type situations may certainly fall into thatcategory, way too much stimulation for some dogs, considering who/what may walk by on the street, what/who may wander into their fence and what sort of reaction the dog will have. Also the diligence of the owner in maintaining the system, including testing batteries.

The invisible fence does have its uses however. I use it. I have about 8 acres in invisible fence. I contain 7 GSD's, a beagle and a rat terrier. The fence begins about 400-500 feet off the road, encompasses the barns, the house and common areas of the farm. Four of the GSDs have been allowed to stay out when we are not here for at least 2-5 years, depending on how old who is. They are well trained, well socialized, not aggressive, but intimidating. Many times I have watched cars reach that point down the driveway, (which runs between 2 fenced horse pastures) and are met by at least 4 GSDs standing across the driveway back out to the road and leave. Obviously they had no business here. The 3 younger and also higher drive dogs only get to be out when we are home and I cannot let them all out as there will be fights amoung the females.

We have used invisiible fencing here since 1996 and have had no problems. No neighborhood dogs venture onto our property. Fortunately all of the children in the area have grown up with ours and know the dogs, so I guess we have a bit of a unique situation here. We rarely have wildlife venture within the confines of the fence. The deer know exactly how far the dogs can go, so do the coyotes. 

I do think that condemning invisible fence as an unacceptable method of containment in all circumstances is a bit harsh and short sighted.

To add to the original question here i'd like to add:
the potential purchaser who asks early on, "how big are they going to get?"


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> 1. Anyone who changes their story mid stream.


Hmm...I'm curious what brought this up. What specifically happened with this? What kind of stories have you heard that went 180 right in the middle?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh I have heard some doozies. 

What brought it up is the posts about red flags concerning breeders. What about buyers, what should they have to PROVE to us? How do we get them to PROVE that they are responsible owners? 

People call up asking:

*Do you have any females?* 

Yes. 

*How much are you asking?* 

Answer. 

*Is it full registration?* 

Are you planning on showing? 

*Well I was not planning on showing, no. * 

Are you planning on breeding the dog? 

*Oh, no, I would never breed her.* 

Well, then all you need is a limited registration. It will allow you to do whatever you want with your dog, pedigree, etc, except show in conformation or register puppies out of her. 

*Do you charge more for full registration?* 

You do not need full registration. 

*Well I was thinking of maybe wanting to enter her in some shows if she turns out good...*

**********************************************

People will tell you what you want to hear if you lead the questions too. 

German shepherds are dogs that need to be trained, have you ever gone to classes with your dog?

Oh yes, we went to classes with all of my dogs.

What did you train them for?

Oh I did protection training with them.

Really, where did you do that?

Uh, well, I want to do protection training with this pup. 

Ah, I see.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Yes! 

Avoid these people!

Someone that cannot spell German Shepherd correctly only shows me that they have done zero research on the breed or that they were not paying attention when they were reading about the breed.

Someone that asks "How much for a puppy." right off the bat

Someone that is not a breeder that already has more than 5 dogs and is looking to get a 6th, I am sorry but I just dont know how someone can spend individual time with each dog if they have 5 or 6. (I would almost question if they had a hoarding problem.) I mean I'm sorry but GSD's require alot of work and alot of time, to split your love between 5 or 6 dogs seems crazy to me. 

Someone that is looking to get 2 puppies

Someone that believes that their backyard is where the dog will get all of it's energy out (sure a big yard is great for GSD's but I firmly believe that they need to be walked daily.)

Someone that is looking to make the GSD a permanent outside dog.

Someone that works more than 10 hours a day.

Someone looking for a large GSD.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Emails where the first question is, "how much are your german shepard puppies?" are deleted.
> 
> .


If you spent your time answering all my questions and then dropped the bomb regarding price and I said, oh, well thanks anyways. Would I be considered rude? If I didn't want to waste your time, wouldn't I ask what you were asking for your pups somewhere in the beginning of our conversation?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

_Quote:Emails where the first question is, "how much are your german shepard puppies?" are deleted._
_Originally Posted by *lhczth* ___
_Emails where the first question is, "how much are your german shepard puppies?" are deleted. 

._

_If you spent your time answering all my questions and then dropped the bomb regarding price and I said, oh, well thanks anyways. Would I be considered rude? If I didn't want to waste your time, wouldn't I ask what you were asking for your pups somewhere in the beginning of our conversation?_ 

Just spell "shepherd" correct, and you are OK!
I do agree about the price. I want to know if it is fair, and affordable, before wasting anymore time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Yes!
> 
> Avoid these people!
> 
> ...


Why? There are people on this board with more than 5 GSDs. They are able to maintain all of them. I would agree with you in some instances but I think this would have to be a case by case basis.





LaRen616 said:


> Someone that believes that their backyard is where the dog will get all of it's energy out (sure a big yard is great for GSD's but I firmly believe that they need to be walked daily.)


My backyard is where Jax gets most of her energy out. A three mile trotting walk around the country block isn't less exercise than playing frisbee where she's in a full out run. Or she might be out there with me while I"m in the garden. She plays frisbee while I pull weeds.




LaRen616 said:


> Someone that works more than 10 hours a day.


I do. Plus 2 hours of driving time on top of that. Is it ideal? No. But it doesn't preclude me from properly caring for my dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> If you spent your time answering all my questions and then dropped the bomb regarding price and I said, oh, well thanks anyways. Would I be considered rude? If I didn't want to waste your time, wouldn't I ask what you were asking for your pups somewhere in the beginning of our conversation?


 
When I was looking for my next GSD breeder the first questions I asked were about temperment, drive and pedigree. After I spoke to him and liked what I was hearing I then asked him how much a puppy would cost, I mean, no I do not want to spend over $1,400 for a puppy, I'm not even sure I'd spend more than $1,300 but I do know that puppies are usually going to cost alot more if they are coming from a reputable breeder and not a BYB.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Lilie said:


> If you spent your time answering all my questions and then dropped the bomb regarding price and I said, oh, well thanks anyways. Would I be considered rude? If I didn't want to waste your time, wouldn't I ask what you were asking for your pups somewhere in the beginning of our conversation?


Read Lisa's comment again. It's not about someone asking price. It's about someone who can't spell the name of the breed correctly.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Why? There are people on this board with more than 5 GSDs. They are able to maintain all of them. I would agree with you in some instances but I think this would have to be a case by case basis.
> 
> *I just dont feel that that is fair to a dog, I mean I wouldn't want to split my time with my mother between my brothers or sisters (I only have 1 sister) IMO I just dont think they would get enough attention individually. I know that my friend now has 3 dogs and she finds it hard to spend her time with each of them.*
> 
> ...


I replyed in bold


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Read Lisa's comment again. It's not about someone asking price. It's about someone who can't spell the name of the breed correctly.


Oh....:headbang: The art of purchasing a puppy suddenly became much too confusing...whew....


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Ha...my dogs don't go for walks. We play frisbee and what not on the acreage, and go to the park for training.

I've had too many bad experiences (my dog being attacked by stupid people that can't control THEIR dog) to continue walks. That does not restrict my dogs from getting exercise


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> *I just dont feel that that is fair to a dog, I mean I wouldn't want to split my time with my mother between my brothers or sisters (I only have 1 sister) IMO I just dont think they would get enough attention individually. I know that my friend now has 3 dogs and she finds it hard to spend her time with each of them.*


*
*
I'm one of 8 kids. o.o...that opens up a whole other can of worms...*

*


> *I only meant that I strongly believe that dogs need to be walked so that they can experience something other than their own backyard and that they can smell different smells and see different things, they need a different enviornment other than their backyard.*


*

*That's reasonable. She does expend most of her energy in our yard but she is also taken many places to experience new things and socialize.  I would agree that people who think their dog never needs to leave the backyard should be questioned a bit further.*

*


> *I'm not saying that it means your not properly caring for your dog, I am saying that again, I dont find it fair to them to be gone so long unless someone else is in or out of the house while you are not there or if your spouse only works 8 hour days.*


*

*Most people are gone at least 9 hours. Commute time, work time including break time. It might not be ideal but I don't know of to many people that can work part time or quit their jobs so that their dogs have someone there for them. By limiting a time that people can be away from their dogs, well...that takes 80% of pet owners out of the equation. I feel it's really about the quality of time over the quantity. Dogs, as far as I know, can't tell time and don't really have concept of a clock. My dogs sleep most of the day, even when I'm at home.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> Someone that is not a breeder that already has more than 5 dogs and is looking to get a 6th, I am sorry but I just dont know how someone can spend individual time with each dog if they have 5 or 6. (I would almost question if they had a hoarding problem.) I mean I'm sorry but GSD's require alot of work and alot of time, to split your love between 5 or 6 dogs seems crazy to me.


So people that breed can handle 5 or 6 adult shepherds, plus everything that goes into breeding (such as additional prenatal care, whelping the pups, raising, socializing, and developing drive in the pups, screening puppy buyers, meeting puppy buyers, etc...) but someone who just loves and enjoys the breed can't have 5 or 6 adults and leave it at that?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Ha...my dogs don't go for walks. We play frisbee and what not on the acreage, and go to the park for training.
> 
> I've had too many bad experiences (my dog being attacked by stupid people that can't control THEIR dog) to continue walks. That does not restrict my dogs from getting exercise


I didn't say that they weren't getting enough exercise, my dog runs in my large yard as well but they need to be walked, they need to see and smell different things other than their own yard. If you have problems walking your dog in your area why dont you take him/her for a walk at the beach or walk in a better neighborhood? I used to do that


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> So people that breed can handle 5 or 6 adult shepherds, plus everything that goes into breeding (such as additional prenatal care, whelping the pups, raising, socializing, and developing drive in the pups, screening puppy buyers, meeting puppy buyers, etc...) but someone who just loves and enjoys the breed can't have 5 or 6 adults and leave it at that?


IMO it is not fair to the dog. They probably wont all get the same attention or affection. They wont get the one on one time that they need. It's just my opinion


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I also have to comment ref: multiple dogs not getting enough attention or playtime. With the exception of my two females (the older of which is not good with most other females, and can not be with my younger female), all of my dogs play together. They spend more time entertaining eachother than you can ever imagine, and thus, entertaining us just watching their antics!

They play games of chase (not aggressive, just chase), they wrestle, they sleep together, take toys by eachother and chew them together, etc. Dogs by nature are typically social animals (not all of them of course) and you'd be surprised how a small pack can form together and how much less lonely they seem to be when they have their buddies within the pack.

I think the misconception with single and two dog homes is that in order to spend "quality" time with ones dogs, it must be alone time. I tend to raise my dogs like I was raised, although it was only my brother and I. I would have enjoyed more siblings, by the way. We had our individual activities and alone time, and we had "family" time. We try to do different things with each dog on a regular basis where it's just them or perhaps one other (thus one dog one person). For example, Akira went swimming the other day by herself. Just me, her, and my SO. But it's not always like this. The dogs play together, and we interact with them as a group. If your friend has three and can't handle them, then perhaps for her lifestyle that's too much for her. Individual people have different set ups, different priorities, and different time management ideas.

My dogs get more attention than people I know that only have one or two.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> IMO it is not fair to the dog. They probably wont all get the same attention or affection. They wont get the one on one time that they need. It's just my opinion


You stated earlier that unless they were breeders they shouldn't have 5 or 6 adult shepherds. My question to you was why do you believe that a breeder can handle 5 or 6 adults, plus all that goes into whelping, raising, and placing puppies; but you believe a person who is not breeding can not have just 5 or 6 adults with no puppies. That is based off your opinion that they won't get enough alone/one on one time. If that's the reason behind your opinion, I'm curious about the above question.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> I also have to comment ref: multiple dogs not getting enough attention or playtime. With the exception of my two females (the older of which is not good with most other females, and can not be with my younger female), all of my dogs play together. They spend more time entertaining eachother than you can ever imagine, and thus, entertaining us just watching their antics!
> 
> They play games of chase (not aggressive, just chase), they wrestle, they sleep together, take toys by eachother and chew them together, etc. Dogs by nature are typically social animals (not all of them of course) and you'd be surprised how a small pack can form together and how much less lonely they seem to be when they have their buddies within the pack.
> 
> ...


I believe in having at least 2 of each animal. I have 3 cats, one of them hates everything in the house including me. The other 2 are the best of friends and constantly play together. 

I have one dog right now because I am waiting for a better money situation and I am waiting until my GSD gets a little more mature, so next year I will get another GSD.

I believe most animals are happier with others of their kind. So 2 or 3 or 4 dogs sounds ok to me (though I dont think I could ever handle 4 dogs and I wouldn't want Sinister to get less attention if I had 4 but I think I could do 3) but to have 5 or 6 or 7 dogs doesn't seem fair to the dogs.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Rerun said:


> So people that breed can handle 5 or 6 adult shepherds, plus everything that goes into breeding (such as additional prenatal care, whelping the pups, raising, socializing, and developing drive in the pups, screening puppy buyers, meeting puppy buyers, etc...) but someone who just loves and enjoys the breed can't have 5 or 6 adults and leave it at that?


If I were a breeder, and a potential buyer (that I did not know) told me that they had an entire herd (5+) of dogs at home, a red flag would go up. Not saying they _couldn't _have that number of dogs and be able to raise well rounded family members. I would have to question their motives for having that many dogs. I would assume that a good breeder can tell the difference between a person who has the capabilities to handle that many dogs and a person who might be a byb or hoarder....or just insane.  I can say with out a doubt I could not handle that many dogs. 

If I were a breeder and a person known to me that was a heavy competitor, and was looking for a pup for a particular venue, then I don't think red flags would go up if they were looking for a sixth dog.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> You stated earlier that unless they were breeders they shouldn't have 5 or 6 adult shepherds. My question to you was why do you believe that a breeder can handle 5 or 6 adults, plus all that goes into whelping, raising, and placing puppies; but you believe a person who is not breeding can not have just 5 or 6 adults with no puppies. That is based off your opinion that they won't get enough alone/one on one time. If that's the reason behind your opinion, I'm curious about the above question.


 
Breeders usually have help with their dogs/puppies dont they, or is it just 2 people? I mean I've talked to a couple of breeders that have a couple of people that help walk, train, play, feed and socialize puppies and dogs. 

I guess I should say that it might be easier for a couple to have 5 dogs but not for a single person.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I'd say 5 dogs is too many for an average household. I had 4 dogs, but I also have 4 limbs! So when they all come up for love, or lay at my feet, I sit on the couch, and they'd get pets and rubs at the same time with my hands and feet, haha. But I'm ridiculous.  It's also easy when 3 of those dogs are mellow. For me, I'd say that more than two GSD's or breeds with similar drives is just too much, I can't keep up with all of that energy!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually it is both. If a person cannot spell the breed name and/or the only question they ask is price, I will delete their email. If someone asks a bunch of questions and price is one of those questions I have no issues with that. I received an email today inquiring about puppies. I have a feeling it was a generic email, but I answered it. I asked questions and described my dogs and sent back my purchase application which is the next step in weeding out people who are not serious.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> Breeders usually have help with their dogs/puppies dont they, or is it just 2 people? I mean I've talked to a couple of breeders that have a couple of people that help walk, train, play, feed and socialize puppies and dogs.
> 
> I guess I should say that it might be easier for a couple to have 5 dogs but not for a single person.


To be honest I don't know if most breeders have help. I think perhaps the big ones do, like leerburg (maybe?), but I think most of the home grown pups have a husband/wife team that do all the training, grooming, feeding, socializing, playing with, etc...of their own dogs. But I don't know any breeders that personally so that is just an assumption on my part.

I personally would not want 4 GSD's if I didn't have an SO who was a dog nut as well and didn't pitch in as much as I do and enjoy working with them as much.

I would agree as someone that does rescue (not a breeder) that people that come to me and say they have multiples (3+) does entail more questioning and definitely a home visit, but I don't consider it a red flag right off the bat. It is not something for everyone, that's for sure.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have 5 dogs. I am single (widow). No, breeders don't always have help. Often we just manage to do everything on our own. I have friends that can help at times, but for the most part I do all the exercising, training, and cuddling of my dogs and puppies. I am currently training 3 dogs. I am also self employed which makes a difference. I limit how many litters I have so that I am never forced to sell puppies and can take back dogs if it ever comes to that.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Rerun said:


> To be honest I don't know if most breeders have help. I think perhaps the big ones do, like leerburg (maybe?), but I think most of the home grown pups have a husband/wife team that do all the training, grooming, feeding, socializing, playing with, etc...of their own dogs. But I don't know any breeders that personally so that is just an assumption on my part.
> 
> I personally would not want 4 GSD's if I didn't have an SO who was a dog nut as well and didn't pitch in as much as I do and enjoy working with them as much.
> 
> ...


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lhczth said:


> I have 5 dogs. I am single (widow). No, breeders don't always have help. Often we just manage to do everything on our own. I have friends that can help at times, but for the most part I do all the exercising, training, and cuddling of my dogs and puppies. I am currently training 3 dogs. *I am also self employed which makes a difference.* I limit how many litters I have so that I am never forced to sell puppies and can take back dogs if it ever comes to that.


 
Yes, I believe that does make a difference, a big difference IMO.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If I were a breeder, I would be SUPER picky in potential puppy buyers!!lol


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> If you have problems walking your dog in your area why dont you take him/her for a walk at the beach or walk in a better neighborhood?


It's called living in the sticks (we just moved in a couple months ago, formerly lived in suburbia). It's a 2 hour drive one way to get to a "beach" (None of which I have found to be dog friendly).

The neighborhood itself is not the issue...it's narrow country roads.

But then, my dogs get out more than most.

There are some dogs that work on farms that never leave that area....I'd still say they've got a pretty good life. I don't think the dogs overall give two hoots about where they go, as long as they're with their people.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> It's called living in the sticks (we just moved in a couple months ago, formerly lived in suburbia). It's a 2 hour drive one way to get to a "beach" (None of which I have found to be dog friendly).


If memory serves, Woodford is right outside Fort AP Hill. If I were looking for a place to walk or hike, a military base would be a good destination. When we lived in Woodbridge, we used to walk / hike / off-leash Quantico A LOT because it was a great place where we hardly ever encountered another dog or people, let alone nuisance dogs. We did the same when we lived near Fort Eustis, too.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

AbbyK9 said:


> If memory serves, Woodford is right outside Fort AP Hill. If I were looking for a place to walk or hike, a military base would be a good destination. When we lived in Woodbridge, we used to walk / hike / off-leash Quantico A LOT because it was a great place where we hardly ever encountered another dog or people, let alone nuisance dogs. We did the same when we lived near Fort Eustis, too.


Sorry OP, completely OT....
BUT, I used to do this on Ft. Benning. One day I walked around a corner and straight into the barrels of a bunch of tanks! Scared the bejesus out of me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, that took off a bit. Good. 

I think that hearing someone has 5+ dogs and is looking for number 6 IS a red flag. For me a red flag is not a stop sign, it is a request for more information. If I talk to someone and they have to aged dogs 11 and 12, and three little dogs of various ages and do different things with them, then bringing in a puppy for a specific purpose may make sense and be the right time. 

I will say I got a call from someone looking for a pup who had 13 indoor cats. 13! It seems like an aweful lot of kitties to have inside. 

How do you all feel about people have kids aged 3, 5, and 7 and wanting a dog that they can train, and maybe take to 4H shows. Also, they want the dog to go through protection training. And to maybe do Schutzhund with the kids? 

I did sell a pup to a guy with four kids who trains K9s and is big into schutzhund and had a puppy the same age out of the last litter, but he trains professionally and wanted the pup as a family companion -- I was not sure this little 3-4 pup would be schutzhund material. Last I heard, he is holding his own though. 

But what about people who have never done schutzhund, have a bunch of little kids, and mostly talk about the children training the dog???


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

3, 5, & 7 to train the dog? No. That's too young. The parents should still be training the kids. The kids can help (be nagged into) feed, walk, play with the dog, but the parents need to be the ones to set and enforce the rules.

Older kids 10+ that are dog savvy already I would be okay with but I may be biased. I (We) got Lucky as a family pet when I was 12 and I was the one who did all her training (and retraining) including taking her through a basic obedience class when I was 13.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> Wow, that took off a bit. Good.
> 
> How do you all feel about people have kids aged 3, 5, and 7 and wanting a dog that they can train, and maybe take to 4H shows. Also, they want the dog to go through protection training. And to maybe do Schutzhund with the kids?


4-H is a great venue for kids that age. We did 4-H for many years with Aussies. Even got my neices and nephews involved. They go to professional training as a group. They enter 4-H shows as well as being encouraged to enter dog breed shows. The kids learn at an early age what to expect from their dogs and how much work it takes to get them to the stage where they can be successful in OB (etc.) 

They are also required to do community service. One of the things we did was go to dog shows and pick up poop. Not glamorous, but the kids did it. Taught them to pick up their own dog's poop and why it's important to do so. 

Truly, nothing is more amazing then to watch a dog work for a 7 year old and enjoy doing so. 

I'm not so sure about Schutzhund. I can see utilizing the same dog when the kids get too old for 4-H - or want to go to the next level when they are older teenagers. But 5-7 is way too young to be able to control a dog in that type of situation...IMO.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Back to the number of dogs.
I think that being a breeder (a good one, let out the BYB) has not so much with having help than with being passionate about dogs. Their hobby and passion are dogs, they dedicate their free time to dogs, their live revolves around dogs one way or the other! Same with people dedicated to other dog activities as training. So if a person like that wants to have their fifth dog, I bet they have a good reason and are aware of what they are getting into. not the same as someone wanting to have more dogs just because they have the space to or get in love of a puppy face and do an impulsive buy.

I agree with Sue about Red Flags they are that, something to be more aware of an raise an eyebrow, request more information before making decision. Same goes I think for e-fences and small kids.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> If I were looking for a place to walk or hike, a military base would be a good destination.


That's a last resort. I hate being on base.

/OT


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is not like I would not sell to someone with little kids, but the idea that all the training was looking to come from the little kids. 4H is a only as good a program as the locale. Sorry to say that, but, my little brother went to 4H with Princess, and he never managed to teach the dog anything. 

The instructor was then dog warden of the area and later the woman went to prison for supplying drugs and alcohol to her son and his friends. She never seemed to be a go-getter in any case, and I do not know how she started that 4H deal or why. 

Evenso, different areas have different budgets. Our 4H programs are on the block right now as are many others. I think that if there is a good program in your area, than do all that you can to help it succeed, even if you do not have kids. 

My biggest worry about this family is that they want a dog for kids and the same dog to be trained in protection, for protection. I think that is a big red flag. People who are into that stuff would probably do just fine. But someone who has never trained a dog before, or has never trained a dog in protection, well, I think it is a recipe for disaster in nine cases out of ten. 

I responded to their e-mail in a way that would convince them to go elsewhere and maybe to reconsider what all they want with the dog, and possibly reconsider who is going to train the dog. They did not respond to it. But I look at it this way, I do not want a puppy out of my litter to be subjected to someone's crazy ideas about what it takes to raise a protection dog, and down the line, seriously bite a visiting child because the dog felt the child was threatening her child. 

Nobody will know or care that the people wouldn't socialize the dog and used questionable training methods to encourage aggression. They will just hear how a dog I bred bit someone's kid bad and had to be put down. No thanks.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

> How do you all feel about people have kids aged 3, 5, and 7 and wanting a dog that they can train, and maybe take to 4H shows. Also, they want the dog to go through protection training. And to maybe do Schutzhund with the kids?


I saw this and thought...Yeah, no way. Ages 3 and 5 are pretty useless in terms of training the dog. A 7 year old could probably help...but certainly not in training the dog for SchH. First of all the kid will not have the physical strength to manage a 8 month old puppy. Not to mention that SchH dogs (like all dogs) go through phases and an 8year old kid is going to be hard pressed to maintain authority over an 18 month old dog that is suitable for SchH and feeling his oats. Recipe for disaster if you ask me.

I also cannot think of any kids I know that have the level of patience and commitment necessary to see through on the training. And this includes kids who have been raised with the dogs. YES, there are young competitors who are working dogs. But they certainly didn't take the puppy from scratch. Generally they are handling dogs that have already been training by someone else. Sort of like the kids in horse shows...they're not showing horses that they broke and trained themselves...they're on a push-button pony that they've taken lessons on...

In addition I cannot think of too many responsible trainers that would take a serious protection dog and put it around kids until it has been thoroughly trained and proofed.

So Yes. That would be a red flag and scare the heck out of me.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

as to number of dogs, I think the ages and health might be a deciding factor, perhaps they have a 14 yr old, a 10, 9, and 5, and 4. They have discovered a disease in one of the younger ones and know time is not on the side of the older ones, this would say they love and care for them and don't dump when the going gets tough, Maybe they train and trial but keep retirees. So are looking to grow out a new competitor. I would leap on this sale

BUT if they had 5 under the age of 3 I would run for the hills unless a real good explanation was forth coming, and all were speutered. Even then I would be very hesitant


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

A 7 –year-old can train a dog in SchH. Ever heard of Samantha Jimenez or T-Floyd’s Schutzhund Youth Camp? (Search ytube.) Sure it takes support of the parents but so does 4-H.

I am not a breeder but I would not dismiss a buyer if they said they wanted a dog for their child to train in SchH.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I am clearly not a breeder but if I were I would not let a puppy buyer buy a puppy from me if they wanted their 7 year old to teach SchH (or protection). 7 year olds are not very mature and they can let their emotions get the best of them. What if the school bully picks on the girl? What if that girl wants revenge and sicks the dog on the kid? Too dangerous in my opionion, a dog is not a toy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Would you let your 7 year old take karate lessons? Same thing...same responsibility. These things teach children responsibility and discipline, not encourage irrational behavior.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

While young kids showing dogs in big competitions is neat, there is a world of difference between a child taking a fully trained dog with so many SchH3s it could do the routine in its sleep to a national event, and training that dog from scratch. Not that it isn't a big accomplishment just to show a dog, regardless of who trained it, in that venue. But it is certainly a far cry from someone buying a dog for their kid to "train in SchH".

That said, I would not automatically dismiss such a situation, but it would depend on many, many factors. Most namely the involvement of the adult and the training resources and background and experience of both. 

Someone wanting to buy a dog *for their kid to train* is different from someone wanting the kids to be involved in the training. The later I consider normal and in most cases appropriate. The former would probably send up the red flags. But as Sue mentioned, red flags do not necessarily equate to stop signs.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Would you let your 7 year old take karate lessons? Same thing...same responsibility. These things teach children responsibility and discipline, not encourage irrational behavior.


No there is a difference, a kid can control himself, I dont feel comfortable with a kid controling a animal that can cause some serious damage.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I have heard of Samantha, and she did a great job handling that dog. However the dog may actually be older than she is...since she's almost 8. Great female and great to see a young child handling her...but Samantha certainly didn't train it. I'm willing to bet it was SchH3 and well proofed long before she put hands on the leash. Although again, let's not take away from her accomplishment in handling the dog and hopefully this will put her squarely on the path to training her own dog. 

As regards T's camp...I certainly think it's important to get youth involved or else the sport dies, and I think teenagers are perfectly capable of raising and training a dog under the guidance of a trainer...but really. Not a young child. Training in SchH is much too physical for a 50lb child to be able to manage an 80lb puppy. The dog would have to be primed for the child to handle. So this doesn't really fit with the scenario of people who want to buy a puppy for their young children to train and who didn't indicate that they wold be much involved.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

My children were raised with our dogs.....and they were *given *the responsibility of helping care & train them.
After school, on weekends...they also helped care for them at the shows.....(shoot)...the first Sieger Show, that we attended as a "Kennel"...my children were the double handlers!! 
One of my favorite pictures, is of my children, husband & dog with the trophy & judge.....all wet from the cold weather.
Back on topic: _I think children can learn_ _alot from helping with_ _the care of animals_.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> No there is a difference, a kid can control himself, I dont feel comfortable with a kid controling a animal that can cause some serious damage.


That contradicts your first post. If a kid does something for revenge then they are not controlling themselves, whether it's a kick in the throat or ordering a dog to attack.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> That contradicts your first post. If a kid does something for revenge then they are not controlling themselves, whether it's a kick in the throat or ordering a dog to attack.


I guess it does doesn't it? :crazy:

My best friends little brother got taught Karate at a young age and I tell you what, he beat the crap out of me and his 3 older sisters numerous times because he was angry. But I think he has a mental issue that they failed to address.

I still stand by saying that I dont believe a 7 year old should be handling a dog trained in SchH, they lose their cool and I doubt a kid could hold back a 80-90 pound GSD. A Karate kid could cause some damage but a dog trained in protection can be deadly. 

If something were to happen, those parents would be in a world of


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Chris Wild said:


> That said, I would not automatically dismiss such a situation, but it would depend on many, many factors. Most namely the involvement of the adult and the training resources and background and experience of both.
> 
> Someone wanting to buy a dog *for their kid to train* is different from someone wanting the kids to be involved in the training. The later I consider normal and in most cases appropriate. The former would probably send up the red flags. But as Sue mentioned, red flags do not necessarily equate to stop signs.


Thanks. Very well said.
It definately would take parent involvement and I'm sure I worded that wrong earlier.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The karate scenario has something lacking. If a child kick another child the police are called and maybe there is a hearing, and disciplinary action. Nothing is euthanized in this scenario. 

If these people had told me that they had titled several dogs in schutzhund and are looking for a dog that their children may be able to handle down the line, I would be all over that. 

I think with me, training is my biggest red flag or green flag when it comes to buyers. How dedicated is this person to training this dog. knowing that these people have managed to get a title on their current or past dog is a huge plus sign. This is a person who knows how to train and title a dog. GREAT. 

I think that lack of training is the reason most dogs land in shelters or out back on a chain. I think that the bond that people build with their dog during training is the best insurance that the dog will be well-cared for. 

I certainly believe children need to be involved in training the dog. But I do not necessarily think that the children should be in charge of training the dog. However, there are always situations where children are naturals with dogs, and have enough experience with well mannered dogs, and have the patience and persistance to do this under the watchful eye of a responsible and experienced adult.

Such a child will most likely be accompanied in life by a parent that probably has enough contacts in the dog sport to purchase an appropriate dog for the child to train, contacts that know them and the children.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

selzer said:


> If these people had told me that they had titled several dogs in schutzhund and are looking for a dog that their children may be able to handle down the line, I would be all over that.
> 
> I think with me, training is my biggest red flag or green flag when it comes to buyers. How dedicated is this person to training this dog. knowing that these people have managed to get a title on their current or past dog is a huge plus sign. This is a person who knows how to train and title a dog. GREAT.
> 
> I think that lack of training is the reason most dogs land in shelters or out back on a chain. I think that the bond that people build with their dog during training is the best insurance that the dog will be well-cared for.


Very interesting. Can we expound on this a little more?

Aside from children, when speaking about adults what if the person has never obtained any titles on their dogs but they have done maybe formal training (just never went for titles) or at home training. Say they do intend to do formal training of some sort but have never done this before?

Or tell me what would be a "red flag" and what would be a "green flag" (if no titles)?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Red flags are not stop signs but raise more questions. Where a green flag is usually a "Go with this one." So if someone says they train in obedience, agility, rally, schutzhund and have titled dogs in it, then we may discuss the process a little just so I feel comfortable they aren't handing me a line of baloney, but my mind is pretty well made up for my part. I have yet to meet anyone who has taken their dog to this level who has treated the dog badly, though there are most likely people who go overboard on anything.

But no, most of my dogs do not go to people who have already titled a dog. But there are other things that tell about their dedication to training. What training did you do with your previous dog? If someone has gone to classes and intends to go to classes with this one, well that is pretty much ok. If this is a first dog and they are planning on taking the dog to classes, sometimes the best you can do is give them some names, and follow up with them, though after the dog goes home, there is little I can do to make it happen. When I do talk to them and they discuss this or that, I will ask flat out, have you taken him to classes yet? I get pretty good responses. 

If someone says they do all their training at home with their dog, this a huge minus sign for me. People can train and socialize their dogs without classes, but at this point, I need to hear more about their previous dogs, and talk to me about them. What did you like about them. Were there any issues. Some people are natural leaders and can manage just fine without classes, but I want for them to prove that to me. 

Give people enough rope and they hang themselves usually. 

The road to the fiery pit is paved with good intentions. If someone tells me that they want to get the dog titled in obedience or anything else, I say "good, what will your first step be?" I want to guage people's commitment to training. Having a record of accomplishments does this, having a history of going to classes and a trainer picked out is the next best thing, talking about their intentions is less good but better than naught. It begs more conversation.

My problem with this group was that they wanted a dog for the kids that would be protection trained, they figured the kids could do the training and offered no experience whatsoever in any type of dog training. So would you sell them a puppy?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

selzer said:


> My problem with this group was that they wanted a dog for the kids that would be protection trained, they figured the kids could do the training and offered no experience whatsoever in any type of dog training. So would you sell them a puppy?


Nope...notta...no way...

And this kind of stuff is another reason I'll never be a breeder. I would get sick worrying about the puppies I sold.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

selzer said:


> My problem with this group was that they wanted a dog for the kids that would be protection trained, they figured the kids could do the training and offered no experience whatsoever in any type of dog training. *So would you sell them a puppy?*


Not sure if this was directed at me or just a general question to everyone but I'll respond - just in case. 

Again, I'm not a breeder (thank God) so take this for what it's worth.
No, I don't think I would sell that group in your example a puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Vinnie, one of the things about the new format that is kind of hard to get used to after all these months it does not say who we are responding to. 

Sometimes, like here, I specifically note who it is I am responding to.

Yes it was directed to you. I cut out the first two lines though, thinking better of them. You do not have to be a breeder to have a good idea of who would make a good buyer. But you do have to be a breeder to get the full impact of what it means to place a puppy with people. That is not a dig. There is something about raising a very vulnerable puppy for eight weeks and having someone say, "when can we start using an e-collar?", the electric fence, or a prong collar too. I get them all. Before they walk out the door with their new puppy they are thinking of ways to pinch it or zap it this little soul that you have been so careful with and care so much about.

This does not get easier with experience. 

You as a non-breeder can think about the ramifications of puppies landing in the wrong hands. You can look at your own young pup and thing about how you would feel selling him to someone, but I do not think you get the whole picture until you have raised the babies. People who have raised an orphan litter, bottle fed a litter, or tube fed a litter, probably feel even more deeply this. I cannot explain it with words. 

I can only say, that I will sell to people with kids. But I have to believe that the adults will be in charge of the dog, their training, leadership, and basic needs. I have to know that the adults want the puppy, not just as a play thing for their kid, or because their kid has worn them down to get a puppy.


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