# Norbo Ben Ju or Congo Vikar?



## Zeus1300

Looking for some insight from experienced working dog owners. I have the opportunity to get a male puppy from the frozen semen of either Norbo Ben Ju or Congo Vikar. Anyone have any opinions? I have been looking for info but it seems most posts are from years ago and nothing recent. I would like a good family protection dog who has strong nerves and a great temperament.


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## Verivus

I haven't heard of any notable Congo offspring, but I'm no expert.


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## Smithie86

Love the Norbo line. Gabor imported in Chuna into the US year ago....Know the breeder.....


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## Barb E

I'm no expert by any means but it seems that the other half of the equation is the bitches used for the two breedings


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## Freestep

Wasn't there a thread a while back about Congo?


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## elisabeth_00117

I am a big fan of Ben's... my female from his lines.... I will be bringing home another pup hopefully with him closer up (son) in the next couple years.


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## Zeus1300

*Norbo Ben Ju or Congo Vikar*

Norbo would be breed to Laika (Daughter of Orry) and Congo to Xara


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## Ace952

My question is, why these 2 dogs and not a litter from parents who are still alive? What does a pup from either of these 2 males give you over any pups that are currently available?

The last pups from Norbo (via A.I.) went for $3500 I believe.


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## Tim Connell

I have a friend with a pup with Norbo a bit further back, and it is a nice pup...purely anecdotal though, as that's the one and only Norbo blooded pup I personally have seen work. As an earlier poster said, it all has to do with who the dog is bred to. I do know some people who are breeding what seem to be some nice dogs from some of this stock.

I have a Congo Vikar son, Valk, who I raised from a puppy. He is now almost 11. How he could be described: His general health has always been good. He is what I would consider a good middle of the road dog, willing to please, who was relatively high drive and athletic when he was young. Nice grips, and a nicely sized and proportioned dog, in my opinion, perfectly sized at 78-81 lbs his whole life, with a nice head. Super solid environmentally, no dog aggression, a very good dog. Decent prey, but not over the top. Good defense, as you might expect from this flavor of GSD. He was certified NPWDA and IPWDA (Police K9/Explosives Detection). I still do detection and bitework with him, which has helped keep him young.

His structural health would be another matter. He has been plagued with one shallow hip, and DJD, so he's got one bad elbow, which he's feeling now in his golden years. Obviously, he was never bred. If his structural health had been there, I certainly would have considered it, but sadly, that was not the case. I have heard there was at least one other puppy out of Valk's litter that had similar difficulties. 

I would of course have no way of knowing where the structural problems came from, but Valk was out of Congo Vikar X Denny Jipo-Me, litter date 7/6/2001, back when Van Den Heuvel was run by it's previous owner, if that helps you. I have no personal knowledge of the person who is handling their breeding now. 

Pictures and video of Valk are on my sites below, if it's of interest to you. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM or email me.


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## cliffson1

It would depend on who the female is in both cases. Norbo produced some really nice nerve and good health. Congo was a good dog also when bred to the right females. All depends on the lines of the female and the female herself in both cases.JMO


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## Tim Connell

cliffson1 said:


> It would depend on who the female is in both cases. Norbo produced some really nice nerve and good health. Congo was a good dog also when bred to the right females. All depends on the lines of the female and the female herself in both cases.JMO



Cliffson, you are always right on point.


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## BritneyP

Overall, I think Norbo was a much better producer and crossed well with a variety of females.. his line seems to still be popular today in many of the czech/west german outcrosses that are super successful.

As someone previously mentioned, I don't really know of any notable Congo offspring either. I'm sure he produced some good dogs, but it's nicer to see something actually done with them to be able to have a better understanding of how he actually produced.

Personally, I wouldn't pay the money to buy a pup sired by either of these dogs, I'd spend it on a nice pup that is perhaps linebred on Norbo, or has him in the first couple generations of it's pedigree and is crossed with some nice west german lineage. JMO.


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## Zeus1300

BritneyP said:


> Overall, I think Norbo was a much better producer and crossed well with a variety of females.. his line seems to still be popular today in many of the czech/west german outcrosses that are super successful.
> 
> As someone previously mentioned, I don't really know of any notable Congo offspring either. I'm sure he produced some good dogs, but it's nicer to see something actually done with them to be able to have a better understanding of how he actually produced.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't pay the money to buy a pup sired by either of these dogs, I'd spend it on a nice pup that is perhaps linebred on Norbo, or has him in the first couple generations of it's pedigree and is crossed with some nice west german lineage. JMO.


The female is Laika (Daughter of Orry) from Van Den Heuvel K9. And how much would you pay? From what I have seen the average for quality GSD working lines have been around 2000-2500.


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## BritneyP

Zeus1300 said:


> The female is Laika (Daughter of Orry) from Van Den Heuvel K9. And how much would you pay? From what I have seen the average for quality GSD working lines have been around 2000-2500.


I believe most quality working line GSD breeders (including many on this forum) charge more along the lines of $1200-1800.

Puppies from my friend in Belgium who has one of the most established breeding programs there and is also very well known here, cost about $1800USD and that includes shipping from Belgium. 

I imported my puppy from the Czech Republic and he was $1500 including shipping and he is pretty phenomenally bred.

I would never charge, nor pay, $2500 for a GSD puppy.. nevermind $3500 (if that's really what Norbo's last litters went for).


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## Ace952

Zeus1300 said:


> The female is Laika (Daughter of Orry) from Van Den Heuvel K9. And how much would you pay? From what I have seen the average for quality GSD working lines have been around 2000-2500.


Where have you seen those prices at? For $2000-$2500 you can get 2 great quality pups. Heck you can even get a great dog a little older than 1 years old with a solid foundation and ready for whatever venue you decide to take it in and not worry about hips & elbows.



I'm still shocked people payed $3500 for those 8 week old Norbo pups that were born about 7/8 months ago. Someone PDB bought one. Yeah I remember the advertisement for them.


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## Zeus1300

BritneyP said:


> I believe most quality working line GSD breeders (including many on this forum) charge more along the lines of $1200-1800.
> 
> Puppies from my friend in Belgium who has one of the most established breeding programs there and is also very well known here, cost about $1800USD and that includes shipping from Belgium.
> 
> I imported my puppy from the Czech Republic and he was $1500 including shipping and he is pretty phenomenally bred.
> 
> I would never charge, nor pay, $2500 for a GSD puppy.. nevermind $3500 (if that's really what Norbo's last litters went for).


Let me ask you this, (please excuse my lack of knowledge here) does it make a difference if the sire & dam have performance titles or high ratings? It also appears Norbo has produced some high quality litters. (I understand he is half the equation) Will that make a difference on the value of the litter? Plus I would assume another big part is the quality of the breeder. How they raise the puppies and the ability to test them so they could properly place the right puppies to the buyers needs. How do you put a price on that? Is a Nobro and Laika litter from a quality breeder worth 2100-2500? I have seen a few breeders that start at 3000 like Kraftwerk K9. The problem for the inexperienced buyer is how do we know when the dam & sire are a good match and what that is worth?


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## JakodaCD OA

VanDenHeuval is now located in CT, they bought out the previous owner of VDH, it appears that they are in partnership with someone in NY, and it looks like puppies are whelped in NY? 

I think paying 2500+ for a working line, is to high, don't care if the parents spit quarters, you can find a nice working line dog for less and get just as good as dog


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## atravis

Sorry to hijack your thread OP, but considering the dogs being discussed I figure someone here might know-

Does anyone have up-to-date contact info for VDH? What's left of their old site still lists Dari as a contact- don't know how much good that will do me? Does Dari still accept inquiries?

I've been looking for an exact DOD on Cak Pisecne Boure, which I'm sure Dari would know, but I suppose I would feel weird trying to contact her if she has nothing to do with the kennel?


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## cliffson1

I don't think linebreeding on Norbo is really a good idea, and I don't think you see many dogs that are linebred on him. I do think that Norbo was an excellent dog to cross with West working lines. This is generally speaking.
There are some nice Congo Vikar working progeny out there some years ago....not as much in sport, but in other venues. A dog like Congo gave good size and good social aggression....he needed to be paired with right lines and you got nice dogs. Norbo tended to produce lower active thresholds, which makes it easier to assimilate into other lines.


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## BritneyP

Ace952 said:


> Heck you can even get a great dog a little older than 1 years old with a solid foundation and ready for whatever venue you decide to take it in and not worry about hips & elbows.


Exactly!


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## BlackthornGSD

atravis said:


> Sorry to hijack your thread OP, but considering the dogs being discussed I figure someone here might know-
> 
> Does anyone have up-to-date contact info for VDH? What's left of their old site still lists Dari as a contact- don't know how much good that will do me? Does Dari still accept inquiries?
> 
> I've been looking for an exact DOD on Cak Pisecne Boure, which I'm sure Dari would know, but I suppose I would feel weird trying to contact her if she has nothing to do with the kennel?


Dari is back in charge of VDH--I'd go ahead and contact the main VDH email address. You could also ask on the kennel's Facebook page.


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## BlackthornGSD

I'd pay $2500 for a puppy out of the right "old" dog--maybe a dog like Norbo--if it was a breeding prospect, and I wanted those bloodlines really badly and had specific plans. But the mom would have to be an excellent match for the sire and would have to bring her own strengths to the breeding. 

I wouldn't seek out this sort of breeding for a pet or sport/competition dog, specifically--that would depend mostly on the pup itself.

People pay that much all the time for a conformation-line puppy.... There's no inherent value in either puppy or bloodline that sets the price--a show line puppy costs more because the market supports that price. People pay what they're willing to pay and breeders charge what it costs them and what their buyers will pay....


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## atravis

BlackthornGSD said:


> Dari is back in charge of VDH--I'd go ahead and contact the main VDH email address. You could also ask on the kennel's Facebook page.


Thank you for this info!


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