# Another Look at Red Rock Kennels in Gap PA



## ishootfriendlies (Jun 27, 2012)

This is a follow up on an old thread, I hope you are not bothered by its revival. Here is that thread:

 http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/169936-thoughts-red-rock-breeder-gap-pa.html

 The website for the breeder is: German Shepherd Breeder

I found this breeder as well and called him yesterday. The websites were not at all helpful, so I called him to get the info I needed. He spent about 30 minutes on the phone with me discussing who he is and what he is doing. Here is what I remember:

1. He does not do any show dogs, only working dogs. He does not want dogs with "show" angulation. He currently has 60+ dogs working in Philadelphia and surrounding police departments.
2. All of his dogs are within two generations of being imported from Germany. They are either the child or grandchild of an import.
3. He has 9 females and 2 males. He only breeds each female once per year. He said the colostrum is not as complete in a female that breeds twice per year, among other issues. In addition, he does not begin a breeding program until the female is 2.5 years old.
4. He sells approx one dog per week. The most is 55 in a year.
5. He works with his breeding dogs extensively, and 61 of his 62 breeding dogs (over the years) have been Schutzhund I, II, and III champions.
6. He did not mention size at all while I was talking to him. I asked him about size and he said his females were 60-80 lbs.
 7. Puppies are crate trained and potty trained when they leave his kennel at eight weeks. They are not fully housebroken, but he begins taking them to a separate room or outside to relieve themselves as soon as they are able to. He said they all know by eight weeks not to go to the bathroom where they eat, play, or sleep.

 This is as much as I remember. He was not high pressure, no "Put a deposit now or they will be gone" or anything like that. Just more of a casual discussion of his dogs and methods. One thing he did not ask was about my situation, which I have found most breeders ask. I mentioned my children and their ages, and that I had a big yard. Perhaps that was all he wanted.

 So this was my experience. I am thinking about going ahead with him. What do you more experienced people think about all this?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

1. All the photos are "showline" dogs.
2. the 3 websites indicate to me that this is merely a very very commercial operation
3. ask for a dozen police department references and CHECK them to see if the seller is really producing working K9s - not pets sold to LEO.....after reading your notes and just looking at the websites (3 same with different key words to come up on search engines!), this guy must work as a used car salesman as well.
4. most commercial/BYB use dogs who are 2-3 generations from titled imported dogs
5. your notes indicate he produces 9 litters a year....55 pups?....even at $1000 each, that is more than many people earn prior to taxes....at $1500 each, it is over $75K a year.....
6. Pups are NOT AKC registered - ACA American Canine Association - ie major puppy mill registry....

Commercial pet breeder


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Going with a breeder like this is a bad idea.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That's a pretty nice hobby. My hobbies get me no where near $30-40,000 in a year. In fact, my hobbies are in the red. I am doing it wrong. 

People can breed for money - just don't pretend you are doing it for other reasons.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't touch this breeder with a 39-and-a-half-foot pole. 

I don't see anywhere where their individual dogs are showcased (whether they have 2 dogs or 100, I would want to see them all separate with their pedigrees, titles, etc). 

There's not much info at ALL on their sites - all 3 of them. 

They don't appear to even know what lines they're breeding, so there's no way they could really match up pedigrees for suitable breedings. 

Did they just tell you that they're all SchH titled? Or does he have something to show for it?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

my hobbies just get me in debt-ugh-sorry didn't look at the website


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

1) Why ACA and not AKC? ACA is not a valid registration.
2) Ask for references. Ask for LEO references. Which police force?
3) Ask which dogs are competing in SchH. Shouldn't be an issue to pull out some names so you can see the dogs in action.

Personally, I would feel pretty uncomfortable with this breeder. Especially when our surrounding areas have so many good breeders that don't raise those questions.


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## ishootfriendlies (Jun 27, 2012)

A lot of great replies, thank you. He gets $1200 per dog. Maybe he nets 50-60% of that, who knows. I am not concerned if he does this for a living, that is good for me. I like full time people as opposed to hobbyists. Maybe that is because I am self-employed.

This ACA stuff is interesting. I will find out why it is that instead of something else. I had never even heard of them until this breeder. The little reading I have done makes this look like a bad deal. Am I correct in assuming any reputable German import would be able to be registered with the AKC or something of similar credentials?

I think the ACA part is enough to turn me off. I will contact him to get an explanation. If he explains, I will post it here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

A German import should come with pink papers that the AKC would recognize so you could register with the AKC. Same if the dog came from the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club..NOT Continental KC which is another bogus registry).

AKC does not recognize ACA or Continental Kennel Club


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The only authorized internationally recognized (FCI) registry in the US is AKC....AKC papers are recognized in other countries and AKC will register dogs from foreign countries as well.

But there are private registry clubs set up to get around the AKC rules - like DNA testing - and most of the puppy mill type operations and pet stores sell pups registered with those clubs. 

Lee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People register with these bogus registries because they buy dogs on limited registrations but still want to breed them. Or, they breed dogs with no papers. Or, they have been inspected by the AKC and are suspended for violations or other reasons. If you are in the US and are breeding dogs, then getting them AKC registered is a no-brainer. It is not expensive, nor difficult to do, if the dog has legitimate papers from a foreign registry. 

My guess is that the breeder will not bother to answer your question because you have just proved yourself to be someone who knows more than he wants you to know, and you will be a pain. 

$1200 for a dog without AKC papers (in the US) is a rip-off. The only exception is if the breeders are registering their dogs with a foreign registry (SV, CKC (Canadian Kennel Club)), not sure if they can, but maybe.


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## ishootfriendlies (Jun 27, 2012)

This is all great information. Thank you very much. I think you may have saved me from making a $1200 mistake.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

When i got Sib I was told she was registered and my bad ..never looked at the papers..Turns out her parents were registered with the WWW. Googled that and found puppy mills use this registry..There are a lot of shifty people out there..This board is a big help for sifting thru..jan


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> 1. He does not do any show dogs, only working dogs. He does not want dogs with "show" angulation.


The Website shows West German Showline GSDs. Not to say that the dogs can't work, but the website and this information is confusing. Proper terminology (should use the terms Working lines and/or Show lines, vs. working dogs - which could be any breed, as in a Drug-sniffing Beagle would be a working dog) - and actual pedigrees would be helpful. 



> 2. All of his dogs are within two generations of being imported from Germany. They are either the child or grandchild of an import.


Good dogs come from good breeding programs, whether an import or not. Bad dogs can be imported and bred. If you want to impress me about the quality and ability of your dogs, show me what they can do and what they have achieved, instead of resting on the laurels of the perceived prestige of an "import" a couple of generations back. 




> 3. He has 9 females and 2 males. He only breeds each female once per year. He said the colostrum is not as complete in a female that breeds twice per year, among other issues. In addition, he does not begin a breeding program until the female is 2.5 years old.


He breeds all nine females once a year? THat is a LOT of pups - small hobby breeders usually don't breed more than one or two litters a year. This way they can spend lots of time with each litter, play with them, observe them, evaluate them. Give them lots of socialization and introduce them to lots of new experiences. Best beginnings for pups, breeder gets to know each one individually, and can then best match each pup to the best owner. 

I like the he waits until the females are older to start breeding.



> 5. He works with his breeding dogs extensively, and 61 of his 62 breeding dogs (over the years) have been Schutzhund I, II, and III champion


Odd that he would use incorrect and misleading terminology if he was in fact working his own dogs. In Germany, all breeding dogs must have at least a SchH I, or they are not allowed to breed (or at least, the offspring are not registrable). So any imported dog for breeding should have a SchH title at a minimum. Normally, people don't use the term "champion" when refering to SchH dogs, unless the dog went to the World's or the German National SchH competition and came in first place. If he did have dogs of that caliber, more people would know about this breeder for sure. 




> 6. He did not mention size at all while I was talking to him. I asked him about size and he said his females were 60-80 lbs.


That's a good average range for a female. 



> Puppies are crate trained and potty trained when they leave his kennel at eight weeks. They are not fully housebroken, but he begins taking them to a separate room or outside to relieve themselves as soon as they are able to. He said they all know by eight weeks not to go to the bathroom where they eat, play, or sleep.


Excellent! 



> One thing he did not ask was about my situation, which I have found most breeders ask. I mentioned my children and their ages, and that I had a big yard. Perhaps that was all he wanted.


Perhaps at this first contact he just wanted to answer your question. Maybe if you had shown more interest in a follow up phone call he would have asked more questions about you. At this point the fact that he wasn't asking much questions (just answering them) would not be a red flag. 



> So this was my experience. I am thinking about going ahead with him. What do you more experienced people think about all this?


My impression about all this (based in the available information) is that this is a person that cares about the dogs and the pups, and gives them a good start, but is not following a breeding program, just making puppies and selling them. Using wording and phrases to impress but rather meaningless overall, and confusing at worse. 

I would choose a breeder that can talk extensively about their dogs' pedigrees and why they have chosen certain pairings, has trained, worked titled their own dogs and can talk about temperament, health and working ability of each dog in knowledgeable detail, produces a few litters a year, and has a specific breeding goal in the ideal dog they are trying to create. The achievements of their own breeding dogs and that of their offspring talk for themselves about the quality of the dogs. Even if most dogs go to pet homes, a breeder that breeds nine litters of working dogs a year (according to the breeder you talked to), certainly must have a large number of these pups in working/competition homes that demonstrates the success of their breeding program. I would ask for references to check the working claim out.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ishootfriendlies said:


> 5. He works with his breeding dogs extensively, and *61 of his 62 breeding dogs (over the years) have been Schutzhund I, II, and III champions. *





ishootfriendlies said:


> One thing he did not ask was about my situation, which I have found most breeders ask.





wolfstraum said:


> 3. ask for a dozen police department references and CHECK them to see if the seller is really producing working K9s - not pets sold to LEO.
> 
> 6. Pups are NOT AKC registered - ACA American Canine Association - ie major puppy mill registry.


What Lee said. I just looked very briefly at the website and did not see any links to pedigrees. what he's telling you should be easily verifiable - ask for pedigrees and check them. Get LEO references and confirm what he said. He can tell you anything he wants but he should be able to prove it. 

Not being AKC registered is a red flag, and so is the fact that he didn't ask anything about your situation. As Lee said, puppy mills often use alternate registries that are pretty much useless because they do not confirm parentage of the puppies, and puppy mills don't care about whether or not someone is the right home, they only care about the money. I just finished reading a book called Saving Gracie that's about puppy mills, and there are a lot of them in PA. Many have nice websites showing bucolic settings with happy frolicking dogs, but the reality is quite different and the conditions are often horrifying. 

If you're still interested in this breeder, would you be able to visit his kennel?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

All Showline dogs pictured, plus a few whites, so kind of misleading, or he is totally misinformed. If he has been breeding as long as he states, and is still this misinformed then I'd be concerned. 
We have imported many dogs from Germany/Europe and have had no trouble registering them with AKC when they came with valid papers from their country of origin. Takes a bit of work to fill out the forms and get things in order, but totally doable. 

Also, keep in mind that most breeder's deposits are non-refundable (some will refund depending on the circumstances, but assume they won't), so before you decide to send someone a deposit, get the questions answered first. I've lost count over the years how many come here all excited about the pup they just put a deposit on only to find that they really should have waited just a bit longer and done complete research. There really are a bunch of great breeders here in the states, and quite a few are on this forum. So don't panic and think you're going to miss out on the perfect puppy if you don't send someone money right away, the right pup will be found with due diligence. 

Here's a good article that can help you see what you should look for in a breeder's website before you even make that call.Ruffly Speaking: Dog photography and general dog nuttiness of all kinds. Kind of like Nutella. - Go, Dog. Go!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

> Schutzhund I, II, and III champions.


There's not really such a thing. There are regional champions at various levels, there's a national championship... but there isn't really a "champion schutzhund 1" or "champion schutzhund 2" -- it's sort of a nonsense claim.


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## NatalieCat (Apr 10, 2012)

Don't, he's where I got Katie from, but I would never go back there again! I love her but he was very deceptive. 

1. he told me the dogs were AKC registered, when I got there it was ACA registration

2. The picture he sent me of Katie was definitely not her

3. He told me his males ranged from 100-120 lbs and females 90-100 lbs

4. The puppies are in rabbit type crates and they poop and pee through the wire bottom, definitely weren't potty trained

5. Katie was not at all socialized when I got her, It took a lot of work to bring her out of her shell

I know he sounds great on the phone but I would really avoid him if I were you


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> 6. Pups are NOT AKC registered - ACA American Canine Association - ie major puppy mill registry....
> 
> Commercial pet breeder


AKA Puppy Mill. 
As others said, huge huge huge red flags waving all over.


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## ishootfriendlies (Jun 27, 2012)

NatalieCat said:


> Don't, he's where I got Katie from, but I would never go back there again! I love her but he was very deceptive.


This is great info, thanks. You actually got one from this same person? The whole rabbit cage thing would be enough for me to walk away. I will find a dog elsewhere. Thanks for all the advice.


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

*went to look at dogs here*

The BF and I went to look at this breeder last weekend after speaking to him on the phone EXTENSIVELY, and receiving numerous texts from him. Once we got there, however, everything changed. The guy was angry (really) that one of his dogs had emptied their water, and that a mother was not in the box with her puppies. All of the females seemed sad, and there was most definitely a strange feeling there. Although I cannot pinpoint it, something just felt "off". The man had zero interaction with his dogs, adn read everything from cards about whose litter was whose, etc. The dogs seemed fearful, and none came to him, licked him, or went near him in general. He also repeated (quite rotely, I might add) everything he told me on the phone, almost in identical order. He asked us zero questions, and did not so much as ask if we wanted to interact with the pups. Sorry, but if I'm going to pay you $1200, I expect to interact with your dogs. He had pedigrees, but there seemed to be no common link, other than "Jake", a dog he no longer has. No dog living there is older than 4. When I expressed my concern about socialization, he gave me some lame excuse about how theya re unsocialized on purpose, as socialized dogs learn to love robbers. My very social boy NEVER loved robbers, and would alert us if someone walked by our house, so I call B.S. The worst was that the very next day, I sent a text letting him know we wanted to come in 2 weeks to see the pups a few weeks older adn then choose a pup/leave deposit. His answer was a rather curt phone call informing me that he was "too busy to be texting" and that he had already received a bunch of calls that morning, had ppl coming from West VA to look, etc. He actually said "That's fine if you want to come back in 2 weeks, but I'm not sure how many dogs will be left. But you can chance it if you want". Any reputable breeder would never do that. So now, getting our new pup July 20 from the kennel where our Atlas came from (Milnerhaus Kennels in Throop, PA) and spending $1500. 

Did anyone else get a sad/creepy feeling from this guy/facility?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> A German import should come with pink papers that the AKC would recognize so you could register with the AKC. Same if the dog came from the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club..NOT Continental KC which is another bogus registry).
> 
> AKC does not recognize ACA or Continental Kennel Club


The pink papers won't do anything unless you have proof of ownership, which is a letter from the SV that recognizes you as the owner of the dog, for the AKC. 

You can have the pink papers and you are still not recognized as the owner as long as you never changed the ownership with the dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

So many things wrong with this, and they all scream puppy mill:



Atlas'Mama said:


> The man had zero interaction with his dogs, adn read everything from cards about whose litter was whose, etc. The dogs seemed fearful, and none came to him, licked him, or went near him in general. He also repeated (quite rotely, I might add) everything he told me on the phone, almost in identical order. He asked us zero questions, and did not so much as ask if we wanted to interact with the pups.





> When I expressed my concern about socialization, he gave me some lame excuse about how theya re unsocialized on purpose, as socialized dogs learn to love robbers.


Complete and total crap. :angryfire:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

alright ATLAS, I may be misunderstanding this, but I have to ask.

If you were so uncomfortable with him and the way things were being done, why would you text the guy the day after visiting and say you wanted to come back in two weeks to see the puppies/give him a deposit????

I don't know this breeder or his program from adam, but it's not unusual for a breeder to say something he didn't know what would be available in two weeks, they don't just "hold" dogs with no deposit. 

Sorry if I'm wrong, but I have no idea why anyone would go to a place, not like what they were seeing, red flags all over the place, but suggest going back in two weeks to pick a puppy and leave a deposit????


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

his dogs were beautiful, and I thought I might do one a favor by rescuing it. But after thinking long and hard, I do not want to deal with him. I know a member bought ehr Katie dog there, and felt the same things I felt. My want to get a dog was more for the dog's sake, if that makes sense.

I will say, though, that his kennels were very, very clean.


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

The reason I said 2 weeks, too, was that his puups were only 3 weeks old, and I was unable to tell what they looked like, etc. He was knowledgable (seemingly), but lacked people skills.


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

how is Katie doing now, Nataliecat? And did he ever follow up to see how she was doing, etc?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Atlas'Mama said:


> his dogs were beautiful, and I thought I might do one a favor by rescuing it.


Yes, but you would be enabling a puppy miller. If people continue to buy the dogs he's going to continue to breed them. Some people don't know any better, but you do. It's hard, I know, but this is definitely a situation to walk away from. He doesn't even know which dogs are which so he probably also knows nothing about the temperament of the dogs he's putting together either. He asks no questions of the people inquiring about the puppies because he doesn't care about finding them _good_ homes, he just wants to sell them.

You could end up with a perfectly beautiful dog which a whole host of health and/or temperament issues. Think long and hard before you make that kind of decision. For $1200 you could do a lot better, his prices aren't even a bargain.


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yes, but you would be enabling a puppy miller. If people continue to buy the dogs he's going to continue to breed them. Some people don't know any better, but you do. It's hard, I know, but this is definitely a situation to walk away from. He doesn't even know which dogs are which so he probably also knows nothing about the temperament of the dogs he's putting together either. He asks no questions of the people inquiring about the puppies because he doesn't care about finding them _good_ homes, he just wants to sell them.
> 
> You could end up with a perfectly beautiful dog which a whole host of health and/or temperament issues. Think long and hard before you make that kind of decision. For $1200 you could do a lot better, his prices aren't even a bargain.


 
Oh, I'm not going there. I already put a deposit on a puppy at the local breeder where my Atlas came from. $1500, AKC registered/papered, guarantee on dogs, etc, etc. _*** Removed by MOD ***_


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## NatalieCat (Apr 10, 2012)

Atlas'Mama said:


> The BF and I went to look at this breeder last weekend after speaking to him on the phone EXTENSIVELY, and receiving numerous texts from him. Once we got there, however, everything changed. The guy was angry (really) that one of his dogs had emptied their water, and that a mother was not in the box with her puppies. All of the females seemed sad, and there was most definitely a strange feeling there. Although I cannot pinpoint it, something just felt "off". The man had zero interaction with his dogs, adn read everything from cards about whose litter was whose, etc. The dogs seemed fearful, and none came to him, licked him, or went near him in general. He also repeated (quite rotely, I might add) everything he told me on the phone, almost in identical order. He asked us zero questions, and did not so much as ask if we wanted to interact with the pups. Sorry, but if I'm going to pay you $1200, I expect to interact with your dogs. He had pedigrees, but there seemed to be no common link, other than "Jake", a dog he no longer has. No dog living there is older than 4. When I expressed my concern about socialization, he gave me some lame excuse about how theya re unsocialized on purpose, as socialized dogs learn to love robbers. My very social boy NEVER loved robbers, and would alert us if someone walked by our house, so I call B.S. The worst was that the very next day, I sent a text letting him know we wanted to come in 2 weeks to see the pups a few weeks older adn then choose a pup/leave deposit. His answer was a rather curt phone call informing me that he was "too busy to be texting" and that he had already received a bunch of calls that morning, had ppl coming from West VA to look, etc. He actually said "That's fine if you want to come back in 2 weeks, but I'm not sure how many dogs will be left. But you can chance it if you want". Any reputable breeder would never do that. So now, getting our new pup July 20 from the kennel where our Atlas came from (Milnerhaus Kennels in Throop, PA) and spending $1500.
> 
> Did anyone else get a sad/creepy feeling from this guy/facility?


I did, I told myself over and over again in my head that I was making a huge mistake getting Katie, but I just couldn't bring myself to leave her there. So far I've been lucky though and Katie has been a great dog.

He did seem anxious for us to leave. He had Jake when I went there, Jake's sister was Katie's mom.


He has ignored any attempt from me to contact him since I got Katie. I'd rather have a breeder who kept in touch, if she's still breeding when i'm ready for my next pup I want one from Shadowbrook Shepherds in Troy, PA


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What do you know about Shadowbrook Shepherds? That is not a breeder I would recommend to anyone.


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## NatalieCat (Apr 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> What do you know about Shadowbrook Shepherds? That is not a breeder I would recommend to anyone.


Really? I liked Pat, she was the first person who ever talked to me about hip certifications, the CGC, and breeding dogs for good temperaments to better the breed. I knew very little about anything that had to do with good breeders before I talked to her. What don't you like about her? I'm just curious and want to learn all i can about finding a good breeder. Good thing I have many years to learn. :crazy:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll send you a PM of what I learned from someone how has one of her dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

puppies are cute, I can feel bad for puppies in a bad situation, but I'm not going to drop 1200 bucks to rescue one, that's just keeping him in business


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## NatalieCat (Apr 10, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> puppies are cute, I can feel bad for puppies in a bad situation, but I'm not going to drop 1200 bucks to rescue one, that's just keeping him in business


I know that now  but at the time I wasn't thinking and couldn't leave the sad, scared puppy there.


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

please do, Jax08


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## Atlas'Mama (Jul 7, 2012)

NatalieCat said:


> Really? I liked Pat, she was the first person who ever talked to me about hip certifications, the CGC, and breeding dogs for good temperaments to better the breed. I knew very little about anything that had to do with good breeders before I talked to her. What don't you like about her? I'm just curious and want to learn all i can about finding a good breeder. Good thing I have many years to learn. :crazy:


 

Nick and I considered buying a dog from there. what's the scoop?


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## Zeus's Mom (Aug 8, 2012)

*Red Rock Kennel is a good responsible breeder*

We got 2 german shepherds from Red Rock Kennel in Gap, PA and were very impressed with his kennels. Both owners took the time to explain things and had concern for the welfare of the dogs and if they were going to a good home and what kind of environment they would be in etc., to see if they would sell us a dog. When we went there, I showed him a picture of our home and our fenced in back yard where dogs can run (which is what a good breeder should do). The dogs were socialized and we were allowed to have 2 dogs (that were 5 months old at the time) out that interacted with each other with other dogs and with us to see which one we would want. The dogs were happy, friendly and we took a ball with us to see if they showed interest in the ball. Their kennel is in no way a puppy mill as one review suggested. Their kennels were very clean, dogs were well kept, and you could tell dogs were socialized and loved. They have fences up so dogs can be out for exercise daily. The second dog from Red Rock Kennel was 2 yrs after our first dog. We would have wanted one sooner, but when we called, he did not have a litter, as he does overbreed and breeds responsibly. So I told the owner to call us when he gets a litter. He did call us when that time arrived and we got our second dog there. We noticed the owners even put in a pool so the dogs can swim. Kennels were all cemented with insulated boxes and canopies for shade and protected from the elements. The second puppy we got there was during the winter and the 10 wk old pups were together in a special room in warm lights and straw and very clean. Pups were playing and happy. Owner spent a long time explaining his dogs. Jake (his stud dog) was there when we got our first dog (which was 5 months old when we got him) and 2 yrs later, Jake was there again, but retired from stud service and owner made him a special box and kennel in front of house so Jake could remain comfortable and have good life in the last phase of his life. Jake was definately older than 4 yrs old (some review stated no dogs were there over 4 yrs old) When my husband and I were at the kennel, there were dogs there older than 4 yrs old. The dogs were given proper and up to date shots and they have a vet that they work with their kennel. We even noticed that the owner gives his dogs frontline. He was even kind enough to give us a dose of frontline to the dog when we were getting ready to leave (which he didnt have to do). THe dogs are fed expensive high quality food. When we were there the dogs were fed Royal Canine or Nutrisource. Our dogs were fed Nutrisource, so that is what we keep them on. You can't buy that high quality food at any store. We buy it at our local Agway that sells high quality food for all kinds of animals. Both our dogs had a very good health guarantee and had all shots and wormings up to date. We had both dogs checked at our vet and our vet told us our dogs that we got at Red Rock Kennel in Gap, PA are in very good health and dogs had no parasites. Our vet also told us that the health guarantee we got with our dogs was very good, and that he does not see that good of a health guarantee most times.
My husband was in the military for almost 25 yrs and worked with military dogs and knows about dogs. We had shepherds over the years and work with them, and the last breeder we got them from, no longer breeds, so we checked out different kennels and Red Rock is the one we wanted to buy from for good reasons. If we would have seen any indication of dogs not being taken care of properly or it was a puppy mill we would have reported it. If dogs were not allowed to play or be socialized we would not have bought a dog from Red Rock. Some comments I read from certain postings are just not true from what we saw both times we were there to get dogs. ....and we would get another dog from there without any hesitation. Our dogs are beautiful and gorgeous and we have many peope asking us where we got such gorgeous shepherds. They are friendly, but also protective of us and our property. We ran into a man at our local agway with a german shepherd in his truck and we asked where he got his dog cause he was gorgeous too....he said, "Red Rock Kennel in Gap, PA". When we were at the Red Rock Kennel, we saw many letters of recommendation with very happy pet owners who got their dogs from Red Rock and pictures of the owners with their dogs. No matter how good a business is, you will always have some who will post a negative comment, but it's very unfortunate that I read negative review that just is not true from the several times we were there. We are dog lovers and are pleased that Red Rock Kennel loves and takes care of their dogs as good as they do.


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## Anastasia (Oct 7, 2011)

Jax08 if you care to share I would be very interested also in your thought of Shadowbrook.

My pup comes from Shadowbrook and I can't tell you how happy we are with him. He has a solid temperament is a beautiful dog and Pat went above and beyond answering any and all questions we had.


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## Zeus's Mom (Aug 8, 2012)

*Red Rock Kennel in Gap, PA correction to my posting*

I just wanted to add a correction to my posting (from Zeus's mom) that I did earlier today on 8-10-2012. I mistyped in one of the sentences. I stated that when we wanted our second dog from Red Rock and I called about another dog 2 yrs later, the owner told me he did not have any pups at the time because he does NOT overbreed and would call me when he has another litter. I wanted to correct my type-0, because I mistyped and forgot to state that he does NOT overbreed and breeds responsibly. But from my entire posting, one would be able to hopefully figure that out when they read it that I mean't, "he does NOT overbreed." when i mistakenly typed because he does overbreed...i left out the not part. I definately want to clarify that. Thank you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

People should remember that dogs are domestic animals and breeding is going to always produce some specimen that are not optimum. If in a litter of 9, eight pups come out good and one has missing testicles, or overshot bite, or one ear doesn't stand....the one does not cancel out the eight. Yet people will see the one produced by that kennel and bad mouth the kennel and breeders. The total picture and the end result should always be considered, and if I don't know the total picture then it's hard for me to negatively assess a breeder. I don't know these breeders but I am impressed with the lengthy reply of the poster with firsthand knowledge.


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## danmc77 (Jan 20, 2013)

What are your concerns? I was just about to put a deposit down on a pup from here.


Jax08 said:


> What do you know about Shadowbrook Shepherds? That is not a breeder I would recommend to anyone.


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## Dilly (Oct 31, 2013)

*Our Experience with Danny*

My brothers and I decided to take a trip down to Gap, PA to pick out a new German Shepherd puppy about a year and a half ago. Not doing enough research, we figured that spending $1200 on a pup would ensure a great pedegree and an excellent dog. Danny told us that his dogs are cancer free in their bloodlines, and ensured us that we were going to purchase a perfect dog. 
We got Maggie a year and a half ago, and she was absolutely perfect. Beautiful in every sense of the word. We could not leave the house without getting tons of compliments from everyone that walked past her. 
Last summer, she was diagnosed with Acute Luekemia, and died about a week later. We went to several vets, one a recent Cornell grad, and they all came to the same conclusion: It was nothing that we did, it was just plain bad luck, and that somewhere down the line she had to have been given the gene for it. 
We gave Danny a call to let him know and he appeared very kind and told us that he would give us a new dog, free of charge. About two weeks later, we gave him another call to see when a good time for us to come down and pick out a new pup would be. He told us that we must have exposed Maggie to benzene somewhere down the line, and took his offer off of the table. 
About two months after that, we emailed him explaining that we spent upwards of $4,000 in vet bills to keep her alive and to give her a fighting chance, and that the entire process caused our family so much pain and anguish, and on top of it, he accused US of exposing our dog to harmful chemicals. Danny simply did not respond. 

Someone posted on this forum praising this guy with the name "Zues's Mom". Zues was the name of one of the studs that he used, so I would be cautious of the good things that you may hear from him.


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## ThorsonVonThorson (Jun 18, 2015)

I'm new to this forum. And this is my firt post. I was on the internet looking for the breeder I bought my dog from back in 2008 "Red Rock Kennel" and came across a link which brought me to this thread. I'm very surprised to hear all the negative remarks about this breeder. So I decided to register on this site and share my experience with Dan. Growing up my family has always had German Shepherds. Four all together to be exact. Back in 2008 I decided to get my very own as I was finally in a position to do so having just purchased a house with a large yard near mountains and lots of open space. I found Red Rock Kennel online one day and gave this guy Dan a call on the phone. He seemed like an ok guy to me. He talked about his facility, his dogs, how often he breeds them, the health guarantee and how he sells to Police Depts. I told him I was looking for a big dog with the high back end as opposed to the slanted back ends. He said all his dogs had the higher back ends and were big boned. He said he was about to have a new litter and that I could be the first to pick one out at 6 weeks old if I wanted to make the trip to visit when the time came. The parents were Big Jake and Emma Chubok. So needless to say... I went to see him. The place was very clean. All the dogs looked healthy and had been seemingly well taken care of. He introduced me to Jake first. I was able to interact with him and pet him without issue. He was a big boy weighing about 120 pounds lean. Then I met the mother Emma. She was very friendly and weighed about 80 pounds. I was then introduced to the litter of 5 pups. He told me I could go into the room where they were and spend as much time in there with the pups as I wanted. I probably spent about 10 minutes in there and picked out the one I wanted almost immediatley. When I told Dan which one I wanted he marked him with a spot of white paint between the eyes so when I went back in two weeks "at 8 weeks old" to pick him up we'd know for sure which one he was. When I went back to pick him up Dan showed me some photos of some of his dogs that went on to be police dogs and even a show dog. He had a couple of awards hanging up in his outside office with pictures of some really nice looking dogs. Although I can't remember what the awards were for. He gave me a magazine called "Training Secrets For German Shepherds" from the editors of Dog Fancy Magazine which had one of his dogs on the cover. I still have this magazine. Anyway... my experience with him was really good. I had no issues and there were no red flags at all. He took his time with me and allowed me to do anything I wanted to do there. Back then his females were $800 and his males were $1000. Now, back to my dog. He turned out to be exactly what I was hoping for. A beautiful black, tan and blonde German Shepherd with golden brown eyes. Everyone tells me he's a beast. He's a lean 120 pounds. Very intelligent and extremely loyal. His name is Thor. He turned 7 years old on April 18th. I've never had any health issues at all with him. I couldn't be happier with the way he turned out. He's everything to me . I love him more then I love my own parents. And that's not a joke. My world evolves around him. I pray every single day that God allows him to live a very long life as I don't know how I'm ever going to go on without him. Like I said, this is my first post. So I can't share pics of him with you or I would. I would even show you his papers that I got with him showing his ancestral background. It shows every dog in his family tree going back 4 generations and where these dogs came from. Maybe when I have enough posts to be able to attatch pictures I'll come back to this thread and share them with you. I just wanted to share my story with you all since I thought the Red Rock Kennel was a legit place to buy a German Shepherd. At least it was 7 years ago. Maybe things have changed with the guy since then, I don't know. Sometimes we go through rough patches in our lives which changes the way we act and live our lives for a period of time until things get better. I guess it's possible he could have had one of these rough patches.


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## ThorsonVonThorson (Jun 18, 2015)

** This is a private matter between the breeder and buyer. If people are interested please PM member. Thank you. ADMIN**


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If the parents were not showing any signs of the disease at the time of breeding, the breeder may not have known that this is in his lines. 

I'm sorry about your pup, but genetic issues can pop up in the best of breedings. I don't think it is fair to blame the breeder, unless the breeder knowingly bred dogs with genetic health issues in the lines. 

I don't want this thread to turn into a breeder bashing thread - there is enough input and comments and opinions so far for people to get different point of views, and set them off in the direction of doing their own research, so this can be closed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are also a lot of vets that blame everything they see in dogs, especially GSD, as genetic. I remember taking Vala to a vet for an adjustment. She had been running around, ran under my truck and bumped her head so there was slight swelling. This vet immediately started to blame what he saw on some rare genetic disorder found in GSD.


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