# I need advice from you pros



## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi all, my name is Steve and this is my first post. I'll try to make this a long story short. This is such a GREAT forum by the way! 

I have had dogs all my life...39 years. I currently have 2 cairn terriers, 9 and 6 years old. My wife and I adore them. I have been wanting a german shepherd for years...my cousin and aunt had them for years. 

About 15 months ago I find myself looking and getting more involved in shepherds and my wife said no more dogs until these guys pass away. I understand that but continue to look out of curiosity, and learn, etc. 12 months go by and I finally find the breeder (I would have rescued but with a 3 year old son in the house that made me uneasy.) So during this we find we have a baby on the way...and decide to move forward and my wife is onboard.

We have a beautiful 5 month old red / tan / black girl who adores us. The issue is I find it hard to do things around the house coming home from a long day, then my son needs time of course and then the dogs. I give them all time and attention. I probably forgot all the work that goes into having a puppy...but I do it. My cairns are great and have the run of the house while the shepherd / Nora / is gated in the large kitchen...only using the cage in the laundry room when she sleeps at night or my wife needs the kitchen clear of dogs. Nora asks to go outside.

My wife now says this is getting to be too much with the new baby that just got here 2 days ago. Another issue is my female cairn (9 years old) has a little growling problem. She never bit anyone but growls when she wants to be left alone. Nora never minded until last week. The growling started from the cairn, who actually snapped at Nora...Nora stared her down, it got worse, Nora took the Cairn's head in her mouth and wouldn't let go. Nora always ignored her but not anymore. No blood or anything but I couldn't get her jaw open. They were separated. 5 days later I try letting them see each other in the backyard with me present. Nora mounts the female, not to hump, but just trap her, who didn't growl, and clamps down on her back with her teeth and just holds her there. I'm thinking showing dominance. No blood or anything. Nora is great with our 3 year old son and 6 year old male cairn. 

Nora is separated from the 2 cairns and the baby all the time. Everyone used to be together for the most part before the baby came. Nora hasn't seen the living room since the baby arrived and the incidents with the cairn...we go to the kitchen to visit her. My wife asks what I'm going to do. My cousin in los angeles offered to take her from us. He has had shepherds for years and has an older one now. Nora would be very well taken care of. I have taken her to training, she has a sweetheart temperament, extremely smart, loves going for long walks, etc. Although it would hurt me a lot, the plus would be no separation, and freeing up time without a dog whining or barking when she wants me sitting in the kitchen with her...I do it a lot, but I can't every second. She will calm down after I've been with her for an hour in the kitchen...then I can go and do my stuff around the house....so I'm almost a prisoner if I need to be outside of the kitchen. I don't think there's much of a separation thing. She goes nuts when I get home, as any animal would.

Maybe 3 dogs is a bit much with 2 little ones and me gone all day at work. It's more work for my wife during the day especially now there is separation with gates...they go outside, then are gated to the living room, then Nora goes outside, etc. She asked me again today what I'm going to do and said if I take her to more training, and work with her more, then she would be better with it but it's still too much work for her. I was thinking of spending the $600 to have the breeder take her for 2 weeks straight for indepth training at their location...or send her to los angeles. Not that I have the money for training but they would work out a payment plan. My dad says cut my losses, deal with the pain, and move on...it's too much. 

I'm at such a loss and am completely on the fence with this! Both ways look ok to me. She has never destroyed or chewed anything....just clawed our door to the outside when she wants to go out and the backyard is mostly mud....she digs and runs a lot, tearing up the grass. anyway, sorry for the long babbling post.
thanks,
Steve


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

It sounds as though you've answered your own question but don't like the sound of it! It's not fair to Nora to be isolated which will most likely escalate the problems. Since she'll have a good home with your cousin, I would let her go there. As much as you want and love her, your first obligations are to the safety and happiness of your wife, children and the dogs that you already have. It doesn't sound as if Nora is a good fit for the family especially at this time, and since she's with a family member you can always visit her.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Bottom line - you don't know how she will do with an older, female GSD. So while that sounds like a promising answer, it is truly unknown as to how it will work out and could be a concern, or it could go well. Is he prepared to rotate them forever if it does not? 

I would look at my contract and contact her breeder as well. He/she may have it in there that she is to go back to them.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

absolutely contact the breeder. if that proves to not be an option, you'll have to choose another. can you please post your location (even sorta-kinda, if you don't want to be too specific, but at least your state), many rescues do something called a courtesy post, which gives the dog good exposure on sites like petfinder. some states have more resources than others, but many rescues are overflowing right now. we also have a non-urgent section here, where you could list her. please be very careful where she goes, ask for veterinary references and if you possibly can and feel comfortable, do a home visit. unbelievable things are going on out there, so please do everthing you can to make sure she's safe. keep posting and let us know how things are going.

welcome to the board and sorry it's under these circumstances. sounds like you've got your hands full.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I agree with the others that is sounds like there's just too much on your plate right now, and your wife and the new baby PLUS the older dogs should have the priority over the newest dog (even if it is a GSD). Isolating a GSD isn't going to be the issue, you may just end up with an older dog with huge issue, and still a baby and 2 smaller dogs in the house.

*If *you have visited your cousin and know they are able to take care of their one dog PLUS yours, that may be the way to go.

But you may need to check with your breeder first because much of the time they get first dibs if a situation arises with the original owner. At the least they want to make sure any rehoming works out well. They may even take your dog back sooner. I know my Puppy Warranty, the one I signed when I get my puppies, say I agree I always WILL contact my breeders if something occurs, knowing they will help with the rehoming.

Otherwise contacting a reputable rescue would be the next route to go.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

thanks guys. i'm in the Chicago area. Visiting her in los angeles is out of the question but at least I know where she would be. I contacted the breeder and they offered to take her for 2 solid weeks for training at $600. Or they offered more personal training. I don't think that is really the answer, as she is a puppy and doing well (but they all could do better.) They also offered to take her to rehome her, with no refund to me, which bothers me. I understand there is nothing wrong with her but that bothers me. Placing an ad anywhere is out of the question....this is one of my kids and I need to know for sure it will be fine...so my cousin is it if I don't keep her here. I feel miserable about this. The main thing here is the 9 year old growls a little at everyone as they walk by but never attacks...until Nora came here. The cairn did her growl thing and when Nora went to play with tail wagging and back arched down as the invite to play, Roxy bit her. Nora did nothing and hasn't done anything until this week, took a few months. What started it is when I got on the floor to greet them all at once as I got in the door from work. I'm sure that may have been an invite to prove who dad's favorite should be. Well, I just don't know. I've never given up on anything in my life and you guys are right, I don't like the answer. It's either she stays here and I deal with the chaos and separating them and the kids or she goes to los angeles. Also, that is correct, what if she doesn't get along with the older one there? My cousin said at anytime I want her back, that's no problem. I'll keep you posted. thanks!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

If the breeder offered to take her back, then I would give her back to them and wouldn't expect a refund. They will invest in training and finding her a suitable home


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i'm not understanding the part about how the no refund is bothering you. why would you think you would get a refund, the breeder is the one who would be assuming the responsibility and the difficulty and the expense of caring for and rehoming a puppy they thought they'd sold to a forever home. can you imagine a scenario where a breeder would refund money to every purchaser who found their circumstances in reality did not match what they'd imagined their circumstances would be? it's to your breeder's credit that they will honor your right to return your puppy, despite the fact that there is nothing wrong with her. please, i'm not meaning to be difficult or unkind, but wanting the best for this puppy has absolutely nothing to do with whether you get money back for her. if you think your breeder is "making money" at your expense that's likely incorrect, they're accepting the responsibility for a life they had a hand in creating, sometimes at fairly great inconvenience and expense to themselves to do so.

*please* consider something else. once this puppy goes to los angeles you have *absolutely, positively lost all control* over what happens to her. what if something happens and her new home runs into some kind of difficulties, whatever they may be, just as you have? you can say, you can think, that someone wouldn't do something against your wishes, but the reality is that you have no control. none. thinking she will come back to you from la is very unrealistic (imho), how will she get to la, how would she get back? if you are unwilling to absorb he original cost to you to return her to her breeder, it seems unlikely you'd be willing to spend even more money shipping her back to you and bring all that chaos back into your life. not to mention shuttling this poor dog from pillar to post and back again, which is likely the most unfair thing that could happen to her.

when you make your decision please base it upon one thing only...what is the very best solution for nora. please.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm sorry, but this was very poor planning on your part. Initially, your wife did not want another dog, until your other two had passed. She was finally on board, but then you had another baby on the way, in addition to your three year old. You should have waited.

It isn't that Nora is wrong for you. You are wrong for her. She deserves better. No, I do not believe sending her to the breeder for training would help anything. Nora is not the problem. The terrier is the problem. Even so, the terriers were there first, so they should stay. Nora needs a home where she will be the center of attention. The terrier is only going to mess her up. Listen to your father. He is a wise man. Give Nora back to the breeder and let her have the opportunity to be adopted into a wonderful home.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't understand why it bothers you if the breeder offers no refund for return of the dog either..That's pretty standard..and it sounds like the solution to your problems.

Alot of us have full plates, with dogs/families/jobs/everyday life, and I agree Nora deserves better. 

With that, I'd return her to the breeder where hopefully they will find her a suitable home where she will be number one .


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

stevo said:


> ....They also offered to take her to rehome her, with no refund to me, which *bothers me*. I understand there is nothing wrong with her but *that bothers me*....


Why does that bother you??? Why should you get a refund? This pup is now five months old. Luckily your breeder must be pretty good, as they'll take the baby back and (hopefully) *properly* re-home her. THAT is a LOT of work and you want money back??? Really??? Heck, you should pay the breeder for being so kind to do so. This pup's very formative time has been spent in your home and has surely bonded at least somewhat with you and your family. Now you're wanting the pup to start all over with someone else and you're hung up on a refund???

I'll just be blunt, and apologize in advance. You took on too much. Nora is not getting her needs met. You're stretched too thin and your poor wife is expected to deal with this dog-chaos AND a newborn? Steve, pull your head out and return that dog and quit whining about a refund.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

I couldn't imagine trying to take care of a human baby at the same time as taking care of a puppy child.... I'm exhausted just thinking about it.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I think you need to send the puppy back to the breeder and get a GSD when at the very least your female Cairn has passed , I too have 2 Cairns and my female Cairn is very dominant, it's a BREED trait in general, you need to do your homework when bringing breeds into your home, I too adore my Cairns, in fact every bit as much as I adore my German Shepherds, but I have to be very diligent and on top of things at all times with my female Cairn and my female Shepherd, they both want to dominate the other if I am not on them, I at least don't have small children or someone else to have to deal with the problem, I micro-manage them, it's a situation that could become tragic if you don't.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It sounds like the posters here agree that Nora needs a different home. The only argument is how she gets one - with your cousin or with the breeder. I don't know what the answer is for that.
BTW I think people here lost sight of the idea that most times when you return something to the seller you expect a refund or a credit. So with that being the normal experience, I can understand expecting a refund but I can also understand the breeder not offering one. I have known a breeder to pay more to buy a pup back because he particularly liked the pup. Breeders like to have control over where their pups go.
Looking at what people here have to say about it, you might want to rethink sending her to your cousin instead of the breeder - or not. 
Good luck! (Of course hindsight is wonderful and we can all see that the timing was off on this -)


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

most times when you return something for a refund it is defective in some way. i have literally NEVER heard of obtaining a refund from a breeder when the reason for the return is a lifestyle change. i have heard lots of times that a breeder says "tuff luck, no time, no room, no return". owners with ethical responsible breeders who stand behind their dogs for a lifetime are lucky owners indeed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

chelle said:


> Why does that bother you??? Why should you get a refund? This pup is now five months old. Luckily your breeder must be pretty good, as they'll take the baby back and (hopefully) *properly* re-home her. THAT is a LOT of work and you want money back??? Really??? Heck, you should pay the breeder for being so kind to do so. This pup's very formative time has been spent in your home and has surely bonded at least somewhat with you and your family. Now you're wanting the pup to start all over with someone else and you're hung up on a refund???
> .


While Steve shouldn't expect a refund, 5mos. is hardly a dog impossible to place. 
He paid a lot of money, I am sure, for this puppy and the breeder can get almost full 'puppy' price for her again so giving the breeder money...?? I don't think so. 
If it was us and our rescue situation we'd never refund the money but I'd be happy to have a 5mo. puppy back rather than an 18mo. old maniac nobody did anything with, 5mos. is going to be easy to place.

Steve, I'd be hesitant to send the dog to your brother, too, since he has an older FEMALE GSD, and female-female aggression can be pretty bad.

If the breeder will take the puppy, that's the direction I'd go. Don't worry about a refund, be glad the puppy will get a good home, but then again, the breeder sold you a female puppy when you had a baby on the way and two older Cairns including a senior female. Hardly the situation I'd place a puppy in.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> While Steve shouldn't expect a refund, 5mos. is hardly a dog impossible to place.
> He paid a lot of money, I am sure, for this puppy and the breeder can get almost full 'puppy' price for her again so giving the breeder money...?? I don't think so.
> If it was us and our rescue situation we'd never refund the money but I'd be happy to have a 5mo. puppy back rather than an 18mo. old maniac nobody did anything with, 5mos. is going to be easy to place.
> 
> ...


Well the giving the breeder money was kind of tongue in cheek... didn't really mean that.

BUT, we don't know what Steve paid, so how can you say "he paid a lot of money." ??? No way to know that.. unless Steve wants to share. :laugh:

Never said a five month old would be "impossible" to place, but harder than an 8 or 10 week old. Besides the time and effort to feed, house, exercise, interview prospectives, etc... that's a lot of work.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just as we don't know how much he paid, we don't know that there's not already a buyer waiting in the wings for this puppy


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hopefully there *is *a buyer waiting in the wings who is able to accept the responsibility that comes with the sound decision to add to one's family.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

LARHAGE said:


> ...I too have 2 Cairns and my female Cairn is very dominant, it's a BREED trait in general, you need to do your homework when bringing breeds into your home, I too adore my Cairns, in fact every bit as much as I adore my German Shepherds, but I have to be very diligent and on top of things at all times with my female Cairn and my female Shepherd, they both want to dominate the other if I am not on them, ...


That's something I wasn't aware of not having any experience with Cairns.... but I do know that there are some breeds who DO NOT BACK DOWN when challanged, like ever. Pitbulls don't like to back down, Komodors don't like to back down, etc..

German Shepherds don't like to back down and it's not good to mix them with another breed that way. (dominate would be a good term for that) My pyrs also as a breed do not back down, they wouldn't make good livestock guard dogs if they did. I can't ever mix the two becase my two females (the gsd and the lgd) most likely will lock into a death match if left unsupervised.

It really is a good idea to know as much about breed traits as possible before getting one of that breed. Most of my experience has been with pyrs and most of the time they get surrendered because either a) the owner didn't realize they would get so big (duh!) or b) the owner didn't realize they would bark all the time (again another breed trait). 

I think Malimutes are beautiful and I used to think I wanted one, but knowing what I know about the breed now, I will just appreciate other peoples and pictures of them and not try to deal with having one of my own. 

My current GSD is my very first one, and I've never experenced the breed first hand before aquiring her. (however I did know just a little bit about them from what I had read) It's been a real learning curve with her, I knew a little bit about the breed, but I didn't realize just how intense they can be. They really are a more driven breed than many others, always wanting something to do from sun up till sun down. 

*this rant isn't directed at the OP at all but just some random thoughts I'm throwing out in general.*

Best of luck with the decision. (I too agree, hind site is wonderful, wished I actually owned a time machine DeLorean sometimes)


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Alot of us have full plates, with dogs/families/jobs/everyday life, and I agree


So what are you doing for balance? That is what I'm asking!


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

chelle said:


> Why does that bother you??? Why should you get a refund? This pup is now five months old. Luckily your breeder must be pretty good, as they'll take the baby back and (hopefully) *properly* re-home her. THAT is a LOT of work and you want money back??? Really??? Heck, you should pay the breeder for being so kind to do so. This pup's very formative time has been spent in your home and has surely bonded at least somewhat with you and your family. Now you're wanting the pup to start all over with someone else and you're hung up on a refund???
> 
> I'll just be blunt, and apologize in advance. You took on too much. Nora is not getting her needs met. You're stretched too thin and your poor wife is expected to deal with this dog-chaos AND a newborn? Steve, pull your head out and return that dog and quit whining about a refund.


I don't care about the money, never did. IF I rehome her, which I don't want to, los angeles was the best option to me since I KNOW the owner, he TRAINS GSDs and OWNS a high end petfood store. Giving her to the breeder, I am sure she would go to a great home but I have also seen how GSD owners treat them if they don't perform properly in the field, should she go to a home where they want to use her for competitions. Thats's all I'm saying. And the part that slightly bothers me about slight refund, or lack of, is they have people waiting for their puppies. She would be gone in less than a few days I know...I have been told. There isn't much money needed to keep her for a few days. That's it. I apologize for upsetting you all, and I know I took on too much. It isn't Nora who is suffering, it is me, leaving no time for myself. Wherever I go she is right by my side, on leash, with kids, everywhere. It leaves very little to no time for me to get done what I need to get done. Her temperament is outstanding and I know the cairn is the issue. I appreciate you guys being blunt. In no way, I must state, has she ever been left in her cage for more than an hour, unless sleeping at night.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

chelle said:


> Well the giving the breeder money was kind of tongue in cheek... didn't really mean that.
> 
> BUT, we don't know what Steve paid, so how can you say "he paid a lot of money." ??? No way to know that.. unless Steve wants to share. :laugh:
> 
> Never said a five month old would be "impossible" to place, but harder than an 8 or 10 week old. Besides the time and effort to feed, house, exercise, interview prospectives, etc... that's a lot of work.


I paid a lot, same as what anyone would for a great dog. It wasn't less than $2k....but again, right now I'm not thinking of getting money back. I know she isn't damaged...she's far from!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

katieliz said:


> hopefully there *is *a buyer waiting in the wings who is able to accept the responsibility that comes with the sound decision to add to one's family.


The breeder's job is to also match up the puppy to the home as best as possible. And this breeder failed. 



> German Shepherds don't like to back down and it's not good to mix them with another breed that way.


This is why we got a male GSD, we have a "bossy" female in the home already.
Males sometimes tend to be a bit easier going and less about drama than females, at least ours have, overall.

As for this breeder, it's beginning to seem like one of those situations where the $$ outweighs any potential matching process and they sold the pup to the first home that raised their hand full of cash 

To the OP, if you'd have expounded on the home in LA, perhaps more folks would have said it sounds like a good option. If they are that dog experienced they could handle female-female conflicts that may arise. Do they know about the potential for female-female aggression?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

stevo said:


> .... *It isn't Nora who is suffering, it is me, leaving no time for myself*. Wherever I go she is right by my side, on leash, with kids, everywhere. *It leaves very little to no time for me to get done what I need to get done.* Her temperament is outstanding and I know the cairn is the issue. I appreciate you guys being blunt.


Ok, wait a minute, Steve. 

Your wife is home alone with a newborn and another young child all day AND three dogs that must be separated and you are complaining that you have no time for yourself? If there's anyone with no peace and quiet time here, it is surely your wife!

Just out of curiousity, what is it you need to "get done" that she's preventing? My dog loves to follow me around and hang out with me while I clean, do laundry, do yardwork, etc... even if I run to the store, he loves to go along. Sometimes I need to do computer work for work and he might bug me a bit, but I try to make sure he's exercised and park him with a chewie. 

Maybe you should ask your wife how she manages to get things done during the day while you're gone.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Do you work at a job that you can take the dog to work with you?

Once the chaos of having a newborn is over, you'll probably wish you had your puppy back. 

Daycare is a great way to give your dog something to do and give your wife a break while you're working (if she can't come to work with you).


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

breeders are not mind readers, or pregnancy predictors msvette, so they can't be expected to know their clients are going to change their minds, or have more children, or be unable to cope with a velcro shepherd. there is the possibility that the cairns should have given the breeder pause, they may have mistakenly defered that factor/decision to the OP. 

wishing for the very best for nora.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't know why breeders could not screen homes, we do in rescue and talk about potential pit falls including "my wife is having a baby in 2 mos." or whatever.



> pregnancy predictors


The puppy is 5mos. old. Pregnancy lasts 9mos.
The puppy was with the breeder until it was 8 weeks (two months). 
The math says they've had the puppy 3mos. 
Pregnancy, having lasted 9mos., means the wife was 6mos. along when the breeder sold the puppy to them. 

My point is simply stop being so hard on this person when the breeder had a hand in it too. Like I said, maybe the dollar signs got in the way of common sense.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

msvette now you kno i'm always hard on everybody but the dog, lololol

and steveo, you wanna kno how to get balance in your life...well if any of us figure that one out we'll letcha kno...


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

thanks for everything guys. i didn't mean to sound harsh when i said i was suffering...that is incorrect. i meant there is very little downtime with my 3 year old and the dogs and helping my wife at home, that's all. i do computer stuff at home as well, and hang out with my son as much as i can once i do get home. i admit i'm spread thin. i felt bad for a long time caging the puppy for an hour or 2 as needed when we are busy at home, but it is a necessity at times. this is not that bad of a situation other than her and the cairn aren't getting along, thus the separation issues, which make things more difficult. the breeder knew about the baby coming. they are a pro facility and great people. i know i should have waited but didn't because after reading about them on forums and books, and visiting multiple breeders, it just grew. there are a couple people waiting in the wings actually but i have also been thinking of the daycare for her when i'm gone at work. there isn't one too far from home actually. the other thing i thought of is trying a muzzle so the 2 can be together and we'll go from there. the cairn is too afraid to go anywhere near the shepherd after being attacked 4 times in a week. again, thanks.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

stevo you shouldn't feel bad about crating nora for a few hours...jeez there are people who crate their dog for 8+ hours while they work and travel to and fro (can you imagine how i respond to them, lolol). i am always on the 'what's best for the dog' side and make no apologies for it. i have a freight expediting business, ride herd on five drivers, am a professional animal photographer, have two packs of two dogs each who don't get along, a big house, have a dh with health issues, and am older than dirt...so i get the no balance gig. i know you know that when you decide to take on responsibilities you somehow must make it work. if i can do it you can do it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

You asked what I do for balance, fortunately for me, I have the luxury of time to spend with my animals..I work part time, I dont have kids, but I do have 3 dogs. at one point I had 4, all gsd's and worked alot longer hours.

There were times I came home from work at 6 and was TIRED, but my down time and stress reliever from the day was spending my time with the dogs, whether it was one on one or all of them..I hike, I dabble in tracking, take classes here and there, but mostly I am out hiking with the dog(s) it's such a stress reliever and my 'quiet' time with my dog(s)

Something you may consider and I know you have kids, family, work etc, is to take an obedience class with Nora, one night a week, it will benefit both of you, and give YOU some downtime with just the dog..


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

thanks Diane


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

When I got Dante (he was 4 1/2 months old) there was nothing in my life except Puppy, Work, Family (elderly parents and 3 siblings). 
I'm single and no kids so that did make one bit easier, but I worked full time and often more than 40 hours a week.

And there were times that Dante went in his crate simply because I HAD to get something done without him on my heels.
And I think there was even a time or twent, late at night when all was quiet, that I took a deep breath and reminded myself how much I already loved him, even in my sheer exhaustion!


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

that's how i started out....single in an apartment with the one dog...currently the 9 year old cairn. i had to unfortunately crate her as a puppy while i was at work for 9 hours, but i worked close enough where i could make the drive home for lunch to let her out for a break before darting back to the job. 

then the 2nd dog came and he was a terror....also a cairn, male. he chewed through walls, guitar straps, chair legs, he was nuts...but now is sweet as anything and very loving, never leaving my side. he is the 6 year old cairn. the 9 year old keeps him in check, although he doesn't need to be.

now the 5 month old GSD... she has not destroyed anything but some of the backyard with digging. things were fine for 3 months till last week when i got on the floor to greet them all at the back door. Nora clamped down on the 9 year old cairn's back and i had to pry her off....i was shocked! she was maybe fighting for my affection and attacked. since then it's always attacking. after a few days separation, this week, before the baby was here, i let them in the backyard, and Nora made a B line for the cairn again.....pinning her and clamping down on her back. had to release her jaw. last night i tried again after 2 days separation. Nora went to sniff Roxy as if she has never seen her before, then clamped down on her back....i pulled Nora and Roxy came with her...since she was clamped into again.....i had to release Nora's jaw. she is like this only to Roxy. my wife is ticked off at this of course especially with a baby around now. that's why the separation.

if she stays, i need to get her into advanced training, use a muzzle, and see where it goes. i don't know what is causing this. i feed the other 2 dogs first, and let them in the house first, etc.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

stevo said:


> thanks guys. i'm in the Chicago area. Visiting her in los angeles is out of the question but at least I know where she would be. I contacted the breeder and they offered to take her for 2 solid weeks for training at $600. Or they offered more personal training. I don't think that is really the answer, as she is a puppy and doing well (but they all could do better.) They also offered to take her to rehome her, with no refund to me, which bothers me. I understand there is nothing wrong with her but that bothers me. Placing an ad anywhere is out of the question....this is one of my kids and I need to know for sure it will be fine...so my cousin is it if I don't keep her here. I feel miserable about this. The main thing here is the 9 year old growls a little at everyone as they walk by but never attacks...until Nora came here. *The cairn did her growl thing and when Nora went to play with tail wagging and back arched down as the invite to play, Roxy bit her. Nora did nothing and hasn't done anything until this week, took a few months. What started it is when I got on the floor to greet them all at once as I got in the door from work. I'm sure that may have been an invite to prove who dad's favorite should be. * Well, I just don't know. I've never given up on anything in my life and you guys are right, I don't like the answer. It's either she stays here and I deal with the chaos and separating them and the kids or she goes to los angeles. Also, that is correct, what if she doesn't get along with the older one there? My cousin said at anytime I want her back, that's no problem. I'll keep you posted. thanks!


I don't think your dogs were arguing about who is Dad's favorite. I think Nora is getting older and has had enough of Roxy. Roxy bit her. You think Nora let that go. I don't. I think things had been escalating without you noticing. You have a case of two females who do not like each other. In my opinion, they never will. I think it is a mistake to keep putting them together and giving Nora the opportunity to put Roxy down. Keep them separated. I do not know what good a muzzle would do. Nora could easily hurt a small dog, without using her teeth. If Nora were to be muzzled, Roxy would have to be muzzled too. Why should she have the advantage of being able to bite Nora? JMO and maybe others will speak up and disagree.....If you decide to keep Roxy and Nora, be prepared to keep them apart for the rest of their lives.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Roxy bit her. You think Nora let that go. I don't. I think things had been escalating without you noticing. You have a case of two females who do not like each other. In my opinion, they never will. I think it is a mistake to keep putting them together and giving Nora the opportunity to put Roxy down. Keep them separated. I do not know what good a muzzle would do. Nora could easily hurt a small dog, without using her teeth. If Nora were to be muzzled, Roxy would have to be muzzled too. Why should she have the advantage of being able to bite Nora? JMO and maybe others will speak up and disagree.....If you decide to keep Roxy and Nora, be prepared to keep them apart for the rest of their lives.


I agree with this. It would not be fair to Nora to have her penalized when Roxy was the one starting it. Nora is just reacting to that. So, perhaps Roxy should undergo some training as well. Meanwhile I would keep both separated.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

This won't be popular with some.
I believe children and especially a baby come first. 
Your other two dogs were fine before.
You don't need three dogs.
Perhaps when your circumstances change you could add a dog. 
You have been given a lot of advice but only you can decide how much that's required is too much and I'm sure your wife also has some input on that.
All the stuff about whether you should have added a dog or the breeder should have spent more time checking you out etc... means nothing right now.
Do what you feel is best for you and your entire family. That may or may not include thre dogs.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> This won't be popular with some.
> I believe children and especially a baby come first.
> Your other two dogs were fine before.
> You don't need three dogs.
> ...


What HE ^^^^ said


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

If your breeder is willing to take the dog back, and there are people waiting in the wings to adopt her, I would go that route. I think you bit off more than you could chew getting a third dog with a baby on the way--and now that she and the Cairn are set to kill each other, it's only going to make things worse. Think about it... in a couple years with a toddler in the house, it's going to get to a point where doors are opened that shouldn't be, and dogs accidentally getting where they shouldn't be, and the end of that will be a dead Cairn and a traumatized family.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

andy and pat and freestep...get ready for a shock...(after some further info via pm from steve), i totally agree with all three of you. in this case, rehoming is what's in the best interest of the dog(s), and the entire family.

andy and pat, since steve has asked for our advice could you, if you've not already, weigh in with your opinion on which alternative would be the most practical and least likely to cause future problems and chaos down the road...sending nora to family in los angeles or returning her to the breeder? could you share with him how you feel about the investment issue and how that relates to the decision he's trying to make? steve genuinely wants to do the right thing for nora and is struggling with these decisions. thanks.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I actually agree with rehoming as well, when you have two females that don't like each other, it's not going to get better, it's going to get worse and unfortunately the cairn is going to be on the loosing end.

Personally, if you feel good about the person in LA, that's what I'd go with. However, did you sign any type of "first rights of refusal" contract with the breeder? 

If she went to LA, the plus's are, you know the guy, you could keep in contact, maybe even visit..you'd know what was happening with her.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Unless you signed a contract with your breeder that they want her back, or get first dibs, then there really is no point in people making that an issue. If there is no contract (I have not read all the replies) then its the same situation regardless. Except the dog would go back to the breeder, only to be sold yet again, probably a breeder who is wanting the $$ and the dog runs the risk of getting returned again. If the breeder doesn't do anything the first time to match dog/owner then what makes people think he would do it a second time?

I vote for sending the dog to LA to the person you know, who has years of experience with the breed (of course this is going on no contract with the breeder).

Part of being responsible is knowing when we should put the dogs needs first and knowing when we have to much on our plates. It happens to us all at some point in our lives with something. This doesn't mean that in the future you can't eventually add a GSD, but right now, it really seems that its to much for your family to handle.

If, by chance the dog doesn't or cant go to the person in LA, the contact a breed rescue and see if they can help.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

stevo said:


> thanks for everything guys. i didn't mean to sound harsh when i said i was suffering...that is incorrect.


I do understand. I don't have any human children in the house anymore. My son just stops by for supper every once in awhile.  So, it is easier for me to manage three dogs than someone with kids. My bf works most evenings so the dogs are all I have ... besides housework .. yuck.  I'll take dogs over housework any time.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If you truly trust the breeder I would probably return the puppy there.
The main reason being the potential for problems with your cousins female. We already know your pup is not afraid and won't back down and it's not likely the established resident female at your cousins will back down, so that would indeed be a bad situation.
If you return the pup to the breeder then be absolutely honest about what happened. The breeder needs all pertinent information to find the right home.
I can't speak for others but I assume when making a purchase like this the money is gone. Just another of lifes many lessons. I would forget about the money and just wish the best for the puppy. Good luck.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I agree with Andy. The older female shepherd that already resides in the cousins' home may be problematic. Then - the cousin will have the same problem of having to keep the dogs separated. Personally, I would rather see the pup go to a home with a male, or have the opportunity to be cherished as a single family dog.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Davey Benson said:


> That's something I wasn't aware of not having any experience with Cairns.... but I do know that there are some breeds who DO NOT BACK DOWN when challanged, like ever. Pitbulls don't like to back down, Komodors don't like to back down, etc..
> 
> German Shepherds don't like to back down and it's not good to mix them with another breed that way. (dominate would be a good term for that) My pyrs also as a breed do not back down, they wouldn't make good livestock guard dogs if they did. I can't ever mix the two becase my two females (the gsd and the lgd) most likely will lock into a death match if left unsupervised.
> 
> ...


 
Yes Davey, Cairns are terriers, they don't believe in backing down...EVER, they are adorable and fun loving with absolute clownish antics, but they expect to be on top, especially the females, they have a personal space and if you get in that space or into their face, they will growl and snap at the other dogs.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

you guys have been so massively helpful! I don't care about the money, I care about the dogs, and I don't want her going to someone who may return her. I don't want to wonder. I'm so very attached to her and have spent so much time...it's going to be hard. I realize I won't be with her forever because we all pass on...but that doesn't make it any easier. I wish I only had the 1 dog, as this would be a non issue. It's the separation of dogs and fear of fighting we are thinking of. I have thought about muzzling them both, and doing training for them both. Every possible scenario. los angeles was a better option since I know my cousin and I really trust him....he puts his dogs first and has been looking for a great GSD, as his is getting very old. Nora has been with me in my office for the last 90 mins as I work, and currently type this...just by my side on the floor. This is so sad for me to be thinking over this, as you can imagine. In a few minutes we'll go for our evening 30 minute walk together. I completely understand why people have said once you have a GSD you will have nothing else. I am blown away at how smart she is and she's only 5 months old. When I walk with her I feel like I'm walking with a great friend, like I'm not alone. When I walk the cairns, I feel like I'm walking with a great dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Stevo:
I feel for you and that's why I feel bad about adding something else to the situation.
How old is your cousins dog?
I have a puppy a little younger than yours. I also have a 5 year old male.
If he was much older than her I think he would want to do her in. Puppies can drive older dogs crazy and some will get aggressive. 
My male is very good with her and is keeping up with her but once in a while has to put her in her place.
I would be concerned if your cousins dog is an old dog. Especially with the pups history.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

stevo said:


> you guys have been so massively helpful! I don't care about the money, I care about the dogs, and I don't want her going to someone who may return her. I don't want to wonder. I'm so very attached to her and have spent so much time...it's going to be hard. I realize I won't be with her forever because we all pass on...but that doesn't make it any easier. I wish I only had the 1 dog, as this would be a non issue. *It's the separation of dogs and fear of fighting we are thinking of.* I have thought about muzzling them both, and doing training for them both. Every possible scenario. los angeles was a better option since I know my cousin and I really trust him....he puts his dogs first and has been looking for a great GSD, as his is getting very old. Nora has been with me in my office for the last 90 mins as I work, and currently type this...just by my side on the floor. This is so sad for me to be thinking over this, as you can imagine. In a few minutes we'll go for our evening 30 minute walk together. I completely understand why people have said once you have a GSD you will have nothing else. I am blown away at how smart she is and she's only 5 months old. When I walk with her I feel like I'm walking with a great friend, like I'm not alone. When I walk the cairns, I feel like I'm walking with a great dog.


Steve, I think I owe you an apology. I've been a little rough on you. I'm sorry.

I understand your fears and worries. My boy Bailey and my 4 y/o Shiba have had some... "moments." Nothing as serious as you've talked about, but certainly enough for concern, constant supervision and occasional intervention. They don't have to be gated away from one another or anything -- and if they did, I'd certainly be stressed. Just as a novice speaking, I'd rather rotate and crate instead of total blocking off. 

Before you give up, can you bring a trainer into the home? They could analzye the behavior and give you ideas to try. If that fails, then you could, in good conscience, really say you'd tried it all and go back to the breeder, or your cousin, or whatever scenario you felt best.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

Forgot to mention the cairn is terrified of her now, for obvious reasons, and doesn't growl or anything. Nora won't do anything when walked passed cairn leash. She ignores her. 

Here she is:










Her best friend Jack:










when things were nice:


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Stevo, my Shepherds get along great with my male Cairn as well, they are not so combative, my female Cairn does not go out of her way to fight with my female Shepherd, but if the Shepherd gets in her space to sniff her or try to paw her the Cairn attacks by snapping, so in the beginning I separated them, than I realized the Shepherd caused the problem by invading the Cairns space so I made the Shepherd just obey the LEAVE HER command anytime she would get too close to the Cairn, they are separated when I am not around, but it has been over 2 months without any fights, the Cairn was a rescue and just learning her place, the male Cairn is perfectly fine and the Shepherds , even my big male just love him, maybe if you teach Nora to leave Roxy alone it may work like mine, since like my Bebe, Roxy does not go out of her way to cause problems, you'll need to teach Nora to ignore her.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I wanted to add your puppy is gorgeous, ship her to Los Angeles, I'll intercept the shipment!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Stevo, Your son is adorable, as are all of your dogs. They are beautiful. It would break my heart to have to give up any of them. If there is any way of making it work, it would be worth trying. Only you can make that decision and I truly wish you all the best.

Hugs!
Jan


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I am in "somewhat" the same position you are.

My youngest GSD will just attack our terrier without any warning I can see. My terrier was here before the youngest. He use to be outgoing, but due to the attacks, now he's scared to death. A trainer told me the youngest Shepherd was attacking for pack position. He said the terrier was high up in the pack but the youngest decided he wanted his spot. 

Luckily, I don't have any small children and I work from home, so I am able to keep things calm here. There hasn't been an attack for awhile here.....same trainer told me that youngest shepherd had established his pack spot so he doesn't feel the need to attack anymore.

Not sure I believe him. I still never let my guard down when they are around each other. I have worked VERY hard with my youngest on "leave it"

I also exercise the crap out of my youngest. I have to. I'm not talking about a quick 30 minute walk up the road, either. I'm talking miles, jogging, walking, hiking, etc.... Just the change in his personality since I've started doing that is amazing.

I don't know much about doggie daycare....but maybe that would be a wonderful option for you, plus it would help your wife out. At Least until you make a decision. Or pay somebody to come over and get your dog and exercise it. 

My terrier sleeps on my daughter's bed during the day. I've made that his place to go....my youngest knows he is not allowed in there. Actually, none of my shepherds are b/c my daughter hates their hair in her room (I have 3 GSD's in total):laugh:

I really do wish you and Nora all the luck in the world. I really do know how you feel. It's hard realizing that maybe you have to get rid of a dog you love to establish peace in your household again. It really can be a mess when your dog pack is all messed up. 

Good luck


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

chelle - thanks, but no worries, i really do appreciate what you said and didn't take offense

larhage - this is great advice and i tried it this morning. of course it didn't work well the first few tries. she tried bolting after the cairn as if she was a rabbit. i don't get it, things USED to be fine...now i'm sure she is fighting for that spot. i firmly / loudly said LEAVE IT and tugged on the collar each time. my wife looked at me from outside the kitchen as if to say, so this is how you want to live life now? i then kept nora on the leash and proceeded to feed the 2 cairns in front of her before putting kibble in her dish. i know it will take more than once. when i go back to work friday, my wife won't be doing this stuff.

jetscarbie - thanks for your insight on this, it helps. if she stays here, there may never be a time i would feel safe with everyone together, like the 2 cairns now. my female cairn reacts the same way, get in her space and she lets off a growl. the male cairn backs away, respecting it, and has never attacked...nora is a different story. 

i have thought of dropping nora off for 2 solid weeks with the breeder for training... $600....they have a payment plan.

the other thing i may not be able to change is the cairn letting off the little growl when someone is in her space...she has always done this. she HATES being pawed and when nora first did it, she got bit as a little puppy.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

stevo said:


> i then kept nora on the leash and proceeded to feed the 2 cairns in front of her before putting kibble in her dish.


How is that going to help?? Seems to me doing that would only serve to frustrate your pup further, and build even more resentment and hatred between the two dogs. 

I wouldn't even mess with it. With this kind of real aggression at 5 months of age, imagine her at 2-3 years old. Your GSD WILL kill the Cairn if she gets the slightest chance. Slips out of her collar, breaks her leash, squeezes through a door... accidents are bound to happen, especially after the baby comes. It's not often that I urge a family to rehome a dog, but this is one of those rare occasions. 

Give the dog back to the breeder.

I am not sure giving the dog to your cousin is a good idea since they already have an elderly female. Your dog is same-sex aggressive. She may be just fine with another GSD, but I wouldn't take the chance.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Stevo, in many of your posts you seem to be trying to convince us/yourself that the situation with the Cairn is almost fixable. I respectfully disagree. IF you had no kids then you could do what this situation demands and keep both dogs. However, your first priority is to Kids/wife, and then to the first dogs, so the pup must go.

Why do you say it must go only to the breeder or your cousin? There are lots of good rehoming options available, and you owe it to this pup to maximize its chances of getting in a good home by exploring all of them.

Wife was on point when she said no to the GSD until the Cairns were out of the picture. Don't rehome the wife, she's a keeper.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Stevo, I agree with Freestep in that the difference between my female Shepherd and yours is that my Shepherd will not attempt to just randomly attack the female Cairn , my female Cairn is exactly like yours, get in her personal space and she growls, even if she's laying on the sofa and another dog just touches her she jumps up and growls, she was an only dog prior to me rescueing her from the shelter 3 months ago and has had to adjust to a pack, the male dogs I have just ignore her outbursts or a quick little spat ends quickly, but the first time she did that to my female Shepherd they engaged, if not for my complete voice control over my Shepherd it would have been tragic, she released even as the Cairn kept biting which I quickly stopped, since than I just made Maddie my Shepherd leave Bebe the Cairn completely alone, as Bebe has no interest in fighting her, she just wants to go about her life of hunting varmints and following me around, so Maddie and her co-exist, neither has a desire to just attack each other for no reason, I never call one for pets or treats in front of the other and they are fed in different rooms, it's been peaceful for over 2 months this way.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Freestep said:


> How is that going to help?? Seems to me doing that would only serve to frustrate your pup further, and build even more resentment and hatred between the two dogs.
> 
> I wouldn't even mess with it. With this kind of real aggression at 5 months of age, imagine her at 2-3 years old. Your GSD WILL kill the Cairn if she gets the slightest chance. Slips out of her collar, breaks her leash, squeezes through a door... accidents are bound to happen, especially after the baby comes. It's not often that I urge a family to rehome a dog, but this is one of those rare occasions.
> 
> ...



I agree with the rest of your post, but the bold. How do you know its same sex and not THAT dog. You don't. Sounds like the GSD is coming into its own and has had it with the other female. I wouldn't doubt if, if the male did the same things that he to would be a problem. Unless this pup is going after every female, one cannot say she is same sex aggressive and be sure.

Personally, I would not bother with the breeder. They don't really sound like my opinion of responsible and are thinking of the money first.



I am sorry but it sounds like you are just making the situation worse by trying to force them into an order. It doesn't work like that and the more you try, the more you are going to cause tension between the two. I also don't think it has so much to do with you, as it does with who is the top dog between the two.

You wife sounds like she does not want the dog, and she was right to wait I think. Its hard and often times not something that we want to face. I know, I took in a dog I should not have and it could have ended with my 2yr old son killed. I did everything to try and make it work before hand. I had no history of this dog and he had some serious issues I thought I could handle, that I could not. He went after my son, had I not been in the middle, I don't know what would have happened.

I am NOT saying that your kids are in danger, but your terrier might be. No matter how hard you try, you can't make them like each other, you can only manage the situation. It doesn't sound like you are in a position to really manage things and your wife is not on board with this either. I would NEVER do that to my husband, EVER. Either we are both on board, or there is no board.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Stevo, if your solution to tension between the dogs is to leash the pup and make her watch the other two eat, you're lacking in training skills but also "dog sense" or, if dog behavior 101.
Get professional help or give up the puppy.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Hi Steve, Obviously you are in over your head. If it makes you feel any better, this happens to most all animal people LOL. The way that you are lucky is that you realize it before it's too late, in that Nora is still a puppy and will do ok being rehomed. I would call the breeder, and if he/she doesn't insist on having Nora back, go with your cousin if you feel it would be best. Perhaps you can get another GSD puppy when your family situation is more conducive to it, like after the older cairn is gone or when your children are a bit older. Good luck.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> I agree with the rest of your post, but the bold. How do you know its same sex and not THAT dog. You don't. Sounds like the GSD is coming into its own and has had it with the other female. I wouldn't doubt if, if the male did the same things that he to would be a problem. Unless this pup is going after every female, one cannot say she is same sex aggressive and be sure.


True enough--I couldn't state without a doubt that the pup is SSA, it might just be the one dog she hates--but to show this level of aggression at 5 months of age is alarming, and I personally wouldn't take the chance in rehoming her with another female dog. Like I said, she might be just fine with another GSD. But she might not. Too high a risk, IMO, but then I'm a pretty risk-averse person.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Freestep said:


> True enough--I couldn't state without a doubt that the pup is SSA, it might just be the one dog she hates--but to show this level of aggression at 5 months of age is alarming, and I personally wouldn't take the chance in rehoming her with another female dog. Like I said, she might be just fine with another GSD. But she might not. Too high a risk, IMO, but then I'm a pretty risk-averse person.



I wonder how much of it is aggression toward this dog AND prey drive with it being a little dog. Maybe a mix of it I think. Something the OP said about when the little dog ran he had to keep the GSD from chasing. Makes me think dog might have alot of prey drive too.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I am definetely no pro.....but here is my opinion.
Your wife definetely doesn't seem on board and in order for training and behavior modification to work.....everyone needs to be passionate about enforcing it. I am not sure if your pup is same sex aggressive, but she is working her way there. You mentioned she was bitten by the little Cairn as a pup...so it may just be an issue of this dog. 
Right now she is young and impressionable and every interaction with other dogs matters A LOT. These are traits and reactions she will carry for the rest of her life. Trust me....our Kaos was attacked by a female GSD when he was about 4 months old (neighboring dog jumped the fence), he to this day reacts much different to female GSD than any other breed, sex or type of dog. We have had him for 9 years and it is still an issue that takes constant supervision when it occurs.
So all of that being said I would recommend a professional trainer for all the dogs.....ONLY if your wife is on board. Otherwise you are just delaying the inevitable and causing further aggression to build in your young pup. As for your cousin taking her that may be a viable option....but how certain are you that he would be committed to the safety, well being and happiness of both dogs if a problem should occur? The breeder...no real opinion other than you trusted them enough to pay them a good amount for this pup.....you should be able to trust them enough to find her a suitable safe home......and if you don't go with a reputable breed specific rescue if possible.
She is a beautiful pup......I wish Kaos liked female GSD's :wub:
Good luck in whatever you choose to do. Often with our animals we are forced to make the right decision for them.....and that is no guarantee that it feels good for us. But it takes a greater love to realize when you are not able to give her what she needs and take EVERY step possible to put her in a situation that is fair where she can thrive.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

"Good luck in whatever you choose to do. Often with our animals we are forced to make the right decision for them.....and that is no guarantee that it feels good for us. But it takes a greater love to realize when you are not able to give her what she needs and take EVERY step possible to put her in a situation that is fair where she can thrive."

mysweetkaos, beautifully, beautifully said.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Often with our animals we are forced to make the right decision for them.....and that is no guarantee that it feels good for us. But it takes a greater love to realize when you are not able to give her what she needs and take EVERY step possible to put her in a situation that is fair where she can thrive.


Good post/advice. We were recently forced to rehome one of our own dogs due to her back injury and subsequent sour attitude with all of our dogs. She is in a wonderful home now, she's the only one, and they dote on her. It broke my heart when she left, but she's so happy now and they update us frequently with pics, and I can see how ecstatic she is. It was unfair of us to keep trying when we knew she was no longer happy here. 

To the OP, I know you'll make the right decision for her. I also PM'ed you.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Thank you ladies.....it is a lesson we have learned the hard way. We had a long term foster in Wisconsin. We had him for over a year...when he became eligible for adoption it was obvious we were not the best choice for his needs. It was the hardest "right" thing I've ever had to do. His needs had to trump my wants. I spent many weeks eyes full of tears with a lump in my throat...to reach a decision and find a suitable home. So to the OP it is a very serious and hard decision...my best to you.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

GSDolch, my wife was onboard but is now afraid for the cairn's safety. the GSD is completely fine with the male cairn and accepts when he puts her in place saying...ok, i'm done playing. 

an update - I spent an hour on the phone with one of the head trainers at the breeder. she suggested, if we are up for it, to keep nora in her cage more, instead of 2 hours in and 2 hours out at a time.. she said at 5 months old, she could be testing things out, which is why the pack order is being messed with. she asked if there was something wrong health-wise with the cairn, as other dogs will pickup on this. granted, the cairn is slower and bitchy and older. Leaving nora in her crate more and not so much the kitchen will give her time to grow on her own. now there is no gate to constantly put up to separate dogs multiple times a day. No gating unless she is being let out or fed, then back in the cage till I get home 4 hours later. And when I get home, and she goes crazy for me, the dog that is, don't rush over and let her out until she calms down. then feed her, walk her, play, then back in the crate till the final time she is out for the night. so she will be in the crate most of the day even while my wife is home. giving nora more alone time during the day, 5-6 hours at a time, maybe for a couple months. after that time, introduce her to the dogs again slowly and if it doesn't work, we tried and they will rehome her if we want to do that. i told her i felt guilty doing this but she said most everyone who has done this, it worked wonders, once passed this puppy phase, and dogs don't mind the crate. i'll discuss this with my wife and we'll go from there. the trainer said she can almost guarantee this will help out, along with continuing her training at home.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Before I comment...let me see if I am getting this right. The trainer suggested that other than potty breaks, meal time, and a walk/play time in the evening to keep the puppy crated? This would be the majority of the day as well as crated at bedtime?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah that'll make the hyperactive puppy ALL better 

BTW do not spend $600.00 or even $.01 on this trainer.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I would suggest contacting a trainer that has nothing to do with your breeder. IMO a trainer that has no dog in this fight, so to speak, is probably going to be your best bet. I honestly don't see that helping the situation and much like you thinking feeding the other two first in front of the GSD and trying to force an order, this sounds like it would just add to the frustration.

You're wife might have been on board at first, but now she is not it seems. If anything you should talk to her about anything you do first. I personally, would NOT want to be home, all day with three dogs and one not being allowed out of the crate. What happens if the dog gets sick? She is to just leave it there until you get home?

Do whatever you want, but if this does not work, it will add to the problems and the older the dog gets and the more problems it has, the harder it will be to rehome, despite what the breeder says.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I reread your post to make sure I had it right....and I have to say with all due respect that is the worst idea I've heard coming from a "trainer" in awhile. You stated so that the puppy has time to grow on her own.....grow into what? She will be under-exercised, under-loved, unsocialized,....the list goes on. All that will change in a month, is that she will be bigger. Please, look at this advice objectively. You may feel better by not having to rehome her, but is she better off?


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah that'll make the hyperactive puppy ALL better
> 
> BTW do not spend $600.00 or even $.01 on this trainer.



I agree. 

Isolating the pup more is not going to fix anything.

For them to live together one would have to teach BOTH females to leave each other alone, and keep them separated unless they are both 100% supervised. Even then that may not work. It doesn't sounds like the OPs situation is really set up for that though.

ETA: many people get second, third or even fourth opinions on things like cars, medical, etc etc. I would get another opinion from some other trainers.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I wanted to add as well. Yes dogs do not mind their crate, WHEN they are used correctly and in moderation. Please seriously look at what the trainer is suggesting...would you put either of your other dogs on that type of regimen? I bet not. I will state my point again, rehoming is HARD, but we as people can get over it when we know we did the right thing for the animal....however not rehoming and allowing your wants to trump the dogs needs...the dog will never get over that.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I gotta say, I am on board with the "forget what that trainer said"

My gosh she is only 5months old, you can't leave her in a crate until she "grows up",,it will not change her attitude towards the cairn, it will make her "nutso"(

I also agree, if you want to try it, get a trainer who has no association with your breeder, cause frankly her advice is NUTS!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'll try once more while recognizing it will not be appreciated.
Your wife is not on board.
She is home with a three year old, a brand new baby, two other dogs that were already there.
If you persist without her full agreement you will indeed win the battle and lose the war.
It is one thing for people to not have the same level of interest as long as it is understood and agreed on.
As near as I can tell she does not want to deal with this.
You mentioned being stresed with all you have to do. What about her?
She spends her day taking care of everyone and the dogs. You come home and spend a lot of time with the dogs and I assume your children. How much time does she get?
I don't think you want marital problems over a dog.
Yes the dog is beautiful and decisions about it are not easy.
I'm with the others about the trainer.
I really do wish the best for you and your family.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I just want to say taht if you do rehome her, please send her back to the breeder since they are willing to take her. I don't know if you signed a contract but you might want to see what it asys about rehoming if you did. Don't give this pup to a "rescue" or anything of the sort since the breeder will take her back. Just wanted to put that out there, I see too many people give their dogs to rescues instead of back to the breeder where they belong.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There is a whole bunch of information on the rehoming aspect throughout the thread if you go back and read it. 

As for those recommendations, I definitely agree that it is not a good idea to do this. In fact, I have a dog who was kept in her crate progressively more - isolated more - and not a good result either. She got defensive...anyway, lots of bad stuff - cut to taking almost an hour to get her from a crate in the car into her foster home, where she stayed for 2 months and then I adopted her to finish the work started there (and undo some of the tamping down/removing her warning signs that was done in foster). So that's one possible outcome - you have a dog who right now with some basic work and involvement is ready to be a great companion...just to make us aware of a scenario that could result from this training.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's a stretch to even call it "training"...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

stevo said:


> GSDolch, my wife was onboard but is now afraid for the cairn's safety. the GSD is completely fine with the male cairn and accepts when he puts her in place saying...ok, i'm done playing.
> 
> an update - I spent an hour on the phone with one of the head trainers at the breeder. she suggested, if we are up for it, to keep nora in her cage more, instead of 2 hours in and 2 hours out at a time.. she said at 5 months old, she could be testing things out, which is why the pack order is being messed with. she asked if there was something wrong health-wise with the cairn, as other dogs will pickup on this. *granted, the cairn is slower and bitchy and older*. Leaving nora in her crate more and not so much the kitchen will give her *time to grow on her own*. now there is no gate to constantly put up to separate dogs multiple times a day. No gating unless she is being let out or fed, *then back in the cage till I get home 4 hours later.* And when I get home, and she goes crazy for me, the dog that is, don't rush over and let her out until she calms down. then feed her, walk her, play, then back in the crate till the final time she is out for the night. *so she will be in the crate most of the day* even while my wife is home. *giving nora more alone time during the day, 5-6 hours at a time, maybe for a couple months.* after that time, introduce her to the dogs again slowly and if it doesn't work, we tried and they will rehome her if we want to do that. i told her i felt guilty doing this but she said most everyone who has done this, it worked wonders, once passed this puppy phase, and dogs don't mind the crate. i'll discuss this with my wife and we'll go from there. the trainer said she can *almost* guarantee this will help out, *along with continuing her training at home.*


Stevo, this does NOT sound like a good, solid plan. It sound like an avoidance of issues plan. That just sounds like way too much crating for a five month old. Please ditch this trainer and get a professional to come INTO the home. 

Giving her more "alone time" to "grow on her own" ? Sounds like pure nonsense to me. It *sounds like* she's trying to overthrow the household, trying to overthrow the Cairn, and rather than deal with her behavior, which is way out of line for a five month old, you are considering lots of extra crating as an answer? 

Sure, your pack order is all kinds of crazy screwed up... but you can't let a five month old begin to think she's going to take head spot. She must be taken down a notch or five. And I don't mean any cruel actions -- but this is where a professional in the home could observe, identify and offer suggestions on just how to deal with it. Shipping her off for training won't do diddly to deal with the in-home situation. Extra time in a crate will likely just frustrate the crap out of her.

Two dogs vs three dogs, especially when one is a pup, is a completely and entirely different ballgame, as you're finding out. Myself as well. It hasn't been easy, but I just keep working it. Are there some spats? Sure. Am I *right there*? **** yes, I am. I don't put up with nonsense from either dog. I'm sure there are some dogs that just can never get along. I don't know if that's the case for you, but I do believe that sometimes it is too easy to throw in the towel and claim it can't be done.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i know i'm late in getting to this thread so i'm just going to tell you from my point of view. As a mother of two young kids (4 years and 2 years), a navy wife with my husband deploying for 9-12 months after 2 months of training starting in february, with 2 large dogs, one of which is turning 2 in march and the other who is 7 in about 2 weeks with a snappy reactive temperment.... I had enough trouble handling a 2 year old and a newborn with two adult dogs with tons of help. I can fully understand your wife not being on board. Thats a great deal of work and just having a newborn in the house is stressful enough. 

At one point we had 4 dogs in the house, 3 being GSDs and 1 a GSD mix with two young kids. One GSD had such severe seperation anxiety she just about destroyed the house trying to get out and find us. The other was completely trustworthy outside of a crate and would often times be found cuddling on the couch with one of the cats when we came home from work or running errands. The other two were usually asleep in their crates with the doors closed while the third crate would be open when it shouldnt have been. 

Even being a stay at home mom the majority of the time, it was a great deal of work. Two of the dogs were rehomed because it just got to be too much. I've also dealt with and worked with a same sex aggressive female. When she set her sights on another bitch, it was game on and holding her back or distracting her was nothing short of a clash of the titans the way she would get going sometimes and this was a 90lb solid muscle female with hip problems. She's mellowed out a great deal with training (intense training) and enforcement of the rules, as well as extreme supervision and firm control. Unfortunately it took a stroke during surgery to drain an ear infection to mellow her out so much that she just doesnt seem to have the energy or care to fight anymore. 

I now currently only have two.... our male, who as mentioned previously, is reactive and not trustworthy out of the house and my female who is almost 2. The girl who had the stroke lives with my inlaws in a dryer climate to prevent further ear infections. If i'd had the kids when we were dealing with the worst of the aggression, honestly i couldnt have handled it. 

long end of it.... rehome the puppy. Try again when the terriers are gone or at least the female is gone and you have more time when the kids are older. My two kiddos help feed the dogs and let them out in the yard to potty all under supervision of course.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Wanted to add that the ONLY reason we have an almost 2 year old GSD is because I wasnt working and I had the time to dedicate to her training and socialization because my husband's work schedule was pretty easy going. Honestly right now, I could handle another GSD puppy but I have to wait until our reactive poor tempered guy is gone. Dont need or want his attitude and horrible habits rubbing off on a puppy. Its hard enough keeping my current girl from acting the brat like he does. Release your wife from some stress. Again, rehome the pup and try again down the road when the kids are older and at least the female terrier is no longer around.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Crate training is good, but I don't see how crate training is going to help your situation. Nora is still a young dog.....way to young to be attacking other dogs. Unless there are other problems with Nora, like landsharking, pooping/peeing in the house, tearing this up, etc...basically what most 5 mth old pups are doing.

Has Nora been around any other dog's besides the ones in your house?

Here's another question for you. Have you told your vet about Nora's problems with being aggressive towards your terrier? Sometimes, a dog may have something medically wrong with it that can make it aggressive. I know my bitch became kind of snappy with the other dogs once. She had an ear infection. Once that was clear, she was back to herself again. 

I know that's an easy solution.....but I think it's one you should get checked out before you do anything else. Get Nora a full medical workup.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

thanks everyone. i also don't feel right about the crating for longer periods. i do know, that tons of people crate for longer, as they have to work, and dogs turn out fine. i would never ever bring any dog to a shelter. i will either work on this like crazy, which doesn't help my wife during the day, or rehome via the breeder, or, send her to my cousin, who asked about her again last night and what i'm going to do. his female is 10 years old and i asked, what if they don't get along? it could be fine, it could not be. if i rehome i may try again when the kids are older and there is only 1 dog. i bit off more than i can chew and am now looking to do what is completely right, as i am not someone who can disregard an animal. i have to know where she is going, should that route take place. thanks

I wanted to add, she is housebroken, pees on command when I want her to go right away, hasn't chewed ANYTHING in the house, plays / wrestles / runs with my male cairn in the yard with no issues at all. the male cairn even growls at her when he's done and she backs away. with the female cairn, she stalks her, smells her, then attacks. it used to be fine then just changed about 2 weeks ago. she has been around other dogs at petsmart and has seen them at the vet. she doesn't care. she is great with people and loves my 3 year old.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Just to clarify there are differences between shelters and rescues. And within those two groups, differences in them! Very confusing to people. 

There are shelters - regardless of the name Humane Society, Shelter, Dog Control - and each has its own mission and policies/procedures. IN GENERAL, shelters will take dogs, sometimes for a small fee, and house them for either long-term (low or no kill) or short-term (high kill) and adopt them out. The adoption is not always screened well, or at all (like in municipalities they may not be allowed to). 

Rescues can be good, thorough groups or they can be puppy brokers/pet brokers in disguise, so research is always warranted as there are no external controls, same as most states with breeding so you have breeders breeding for a purpose and others just to pay for new carpeting (or whatever!). IN GENERAL, the good rescues take dogs from kill or other shelters, sometimes from owner surrenders, strays, etc and work to make the dog their most adoptable in terms of behavior and health. The goal is a match adoption - where the dog and potential family match up in terms of energy, knowledge, environment, through vet, reference and home screening. These rescues will take dogs back for the life of the dog. 

So taking a dog to a shelter is different from surrendering them to rescue. A good rescue is better equipped than the average owner to screen applicants and work with a dog. 

However, you do have a breeder and possibly a contract to uphold so that is the first consideration. 

Good luck in finding her a situation where she can thrive.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

stevo said:


> i bit off more than i can chew and am now looking to do what is completely right, as i am not someone who can disregard an animal.


Clearly you are not. And rehoming her is anything but "disregard", it's honestly the best thing for everyone involved, including the dog. Like I said, I don't often recommend rehoming, but in this case it's pretty clear cut--especially since your wife is not on board with keeping her at this point. Like others said, you really don't want to keep the dog at the cost of your marriage!



> I wanted to add, she is housebroken, pees on command when I want her to go right away, hasn't chewed ANYTHING in the house, plays / wrestles / runs with my male cairn in the yard with no issues at all. the male cairn even growls at her when he's done and she backs away. with the female cairn, she stalks her, smells her, then attacks. it used to be fine then just changed about 2 weeks ago. she has been around other dogs at petsmart and has seen them at the vet. she doesn't care. she is great with people and loves my 3 year old.


Awesome! She'll be very adoptable, then.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I have seen quite a few trainers, especially for sports, who believe that the dog belongs in a crate almost all the time unless he/she is "working." I know not all feel that way, but a lot seem to. I disagree, but then my first priority is a pet/companion.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

VonKromeHaus said:


> I just want to say taht if you do rehome her, please send her back to the breeder since they are willing to take her. I don't know if you signed a contract but you might want to see what it asys about rehoming if you did. Don't give this pup to a "rescue" or anything of the sort since the breeder will take her back. Just wanted to put that out there, I see too many people give their dogs to rescues instead of back to the breeder where they belong.



Just because the breeder wants the pup back doesn't mean that its for the best interest of the dog. The dogs best interest should be first, if all the breeder cares about is turnover and getting the dog sold to the next person in line, this does NOTHING for the dog.

I would not return the dog to the "breeder" personally, but find another option through a reputable rescue.

ETA: You seem to be coming from the angle that the breeder is reputable. Last I checked, just taking a dog back doesn't make on reputable in and of itself.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> Just because the breeder wants the pup back doesn't mean that its for the best interest of the dog. The dogs best interest should be first, if all the breeder cares about is turnover and getting the dog sold to the next person in line, this does NOTHING for the dog.
> 
> I would not return the dog to the "breeder" personally, but find another option through a reputable rescue.
> 
> ETA: You seem to be coming from the angle that the breeder is reputable. Last I checked, just taking a dog back doesn't make on reputable in and of itself.


Good post. Not to mention, a rescue will ensure the dog is spayed and placed appropriately.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

stevo said:


> thanks everyone. i also don't feel right about the crating for longer periods. i do know, that tons of people crate for longer, as they have to work, and dogs turn out fine. i would never ever bring any dog to a shelter. i will either work on this like crazy, which doesn't help my wife during the day, or rehome via the breeder, or, send her to my cousin, who asked about her again last night and what i'm going to do. his female is 10 years old and i asked, what if they don't get along? it could be fine, it could not be. if i rehome i may try again when the kids are older and there is only 1 dog. i bit off more than i can chew and am now looking to do what is completely right, as i am not someone who can disregard an animal. i have to know where she is going, should that route take place. thanks
> 
> I wanted to add, she is housebroken, pees on command when I want her to go right away, hasn't chewed ANYTHING in the house, plays / wrestles / runs with my male cairn in the yard with no issues at all. the male cairn even growls at her when he's done and she backs away. with the female cairn, she stalks her, smells her, then attacks. it used to be fine then just changed about 2 weeks ago. she has been around other dogs at petsmart and has seen them at the vet. she doesn't care. she is great with people and loves my 3 year old.


Since you understandably feel better about her going to your cousin....what was his response about if they don't get along? Seniors can be tricky with younger dogs....but it can be done. Right now Kaos is in no mood for the puppy antics in the house. So outside and on walks they are together and in the house, unless the puppy is tethered we do crate and rotate....we understand they both have needs. Kaos needs peace and not getting bumped into and Sherman needs time with his family and loves to just follow us around. So we give them seperate free times inside. Not ideal timewise....but it is what they need.
I don't think anyone thinks you could just disregard how seriously hard re-homing is...at least no one that has HAD to do it. It hurts a lot, I cried for weeks and still get sad, it was about 8 years ago. We had a great home with our vet lined up where he would live with the vet and accompany him to work, all the while having everything he could possibly need healthwise....and it still tore me up inside. So many thoughts are with you in making the right albeit hard decision. 
She sounds like a lovely girl.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I was/am running off the assumption that the breeder was good and reputable. 

I have a sour taste about rescues...certain rescues as there is a local one that takes dogs off craigslist, charges upwards of $400 for small purebred dogs and really is just a HORRIBLE rescue. They are just horrible. 

I still think going back to the breeder is the first consideration. especially since they said they would take her back, in my contract it stipulates the dog must come back to me....period...no questions asked. 

Since we don't know the breeder or the terms of the contract if there was one, no one can really say that it is for the best/worst for the dog at this point.

Just be aware that there are BAD rescues just as there are BAD Breeders!!! Do your research thoroughly about wherever you send her!!!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

VonKromeHaus said:


> Just be aware that there are BAD rescues just as there are BAD Breeders!!! Do your research thoroughly about wherever you send her!!!


That, I can def. get on board with. 

People need to be careful, regardless what path they take. Its sad, but true :/


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

there was a contract, but it doesn't state she must go back to them. it says they will take her back in order to avoid a shelter. 

i would never consider a shelter or rescue, even though there are some great ones out there. who's to say something happens in the new family and they abandon her or just give her to someone else...i couldn't live not knowing. it would tear me up inside. as mysweetkaos said, it would hurt, and hurt for a long time. i've already been torn up many time about this imagining what our last walk would be like. i sound like a sap, but you guys know where i'm coming from. 

after speaking with my cousin last night, he said to take my time and he is there if i want to rehome her. he would keep the dogs separated and doesn't like using the crates anymore. he has indoor gating in his home for roaming when not at home. he lives with his brother, who has had shepherds as well. he knows i would be torn up about it. 

last night i took her for the nightly walk, then came back to the house to get the male cairn to walk with her. no issues of course. then i came back to drop him off and take the female cairn. absolutely no issues. i had the choker collar on nora and never had to use it. they walked fine, although the cairn was nervous for the first few mins. i'm not saying there is no more issue. i tried walking them together at my cousin's suggestion. he had a similar issue when he had 2 dogs and walking them together helped a lot, over time.

i spoke with a trainer last night via my vet. she suggested a behaviorist. since this is related to my female cairn only, she was wondering if my cairn was sick? nora may know. or, is it too young for her to be in heat and seeing the cairn as competition? she isn't fixed yet of course. trying to figure out why she is setting her sites on her only. the other weird thing is there is no growling, just a slow approach, a sniff, and an attack...like stalking.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Not trying to get in your face, Stevo, so forgive me for being blunt below.

Your posts evidence a real disconnect with the GREAT advice you have been given by very experienced people here. It is clear you don't want to accept what you are being told. The depth and detail to which you describe Nora's temperament and activities shows that you are hoping this problem will magically resolve itself, which it won't. You are rationalizing and inflating the positives and ignoring the basic facts that you have a very complex dog situation in the face of young children and a wife who needs your every spare moment for at least the next two years. This leaves no time for you to do justice to the complex dog problem. Again, Nora must go.

Please re-think your attitude toward rescues. Most of them are great--they are operated by the type of people who have posted here to help you with your and Nora's problem because they love the breed and want to help the dogs and the owners who innocently get in over their heads. Find a good rescue, trust them, and let Nora find a great home. Your time for a GSD will come and you will be a great Dad, but now is not that time.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Stevo, a good rescue will have a contract stating that the dog _*must*_ come back to them if someone cannot keep it. Not like your "breeders" who just say that they will take it back to avoid a shelter. Shelters and rescues are not the same thing at all. A rescue will not just give her to anyone like a shelter will. They will _*match*_ the dog and the possible home together. You do not go to a rescue, say "I want that dog" then go on. Its a long process to get a dog from a reputable rescue. Please do your research on responsible rescues before you try saying what they will and wont do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> Stevo, a good rescue will have a contract stating that the dog _*must*_ come back to them if someone cannot keep it. Not like your "breeders" who just say that they will take it back to avoid a shelter. Shelters and rescues are not the same thing at all. A rescue will not just give her to anyone like a shelter will. They will _*match*_ the dog and the possible home together. You do not go to a rescue, say "I want that dog" then go on. Its a long process to get a dog from a reputable rescue. Please do your research on responsible rescues before you try saying what they will and wont do.


Exactly. We spay or neuter the dogs in our rescue, they live as part of our family (or their foster family) while we learn their temperament, then choose a home based on their needs. We microchip at the time of adoption and a contract is signed that they must return the dog if for any reason it doesn't work out. All good rescues should do all these things. 
While with us, any health issues that may need to be addressed are addressed as well. 
Petfinder. Com can help you find good rescues in your area.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

billsharp said:


> Your posts evidence a real disconnect with the GREAT advice you have been given by very experienced people here.


I am confused by this, just to make sure I'm clear...my posts are showing evidence that there is a disconnect between what you guys say and what I am doing. I have received a handful of pm's saying there are some not too experienced here who try to give advice...I'm not talking about you. I'm reading inbetween the lines with all these great suggestions, as some say slightly different things. No offense to anyone but I'm not considering any shelter or rescue of any kind. I know the screening process, as I have filled out forms and visited with them in my home. They looked at my fence and yard and family and said everything is ok. They knew about the 2 dogs and the baby on the way as well. What seemed to sell them was the higher fence, nice neighborhood and clean environment. If I do anything it will be L.A. 

My wife, who was onboard, then said she's not, is now wanting to keep her, while I'm working to make it all better for everyone. You guys have helped a lot and I appreciate it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

billsharp said:


> Not trying to get in your face, Stevo, so forgive me for being blunt below.
> 
> Your posts evidence a real disconnect with the GREAT advice you have been given by very experienced people here. It is clear you don't want to accept what you are being told. The depth and detail to which you describe Nora's temperament and activities shows that you are hoping this problem will magically resolve itself, which it won't. You are rationalizing and inflating the positives and ignoring the basic facts that you have a very complex dog situation in the face of young children and a wife who needs your every spare moment for at least the next two years. This leaves no time for you to do justice to the complex dog problem. Again, Nora must go.
> 
> Please re-think your attitude toward rescues. Most of them are great--they are operated by the type of people who have posted here to help you with your and Nora's problem because they love the breed and want to help the dogs and the owners who innocently get in over their heads. Find a good rescue, trust them, and let Nora find a great home. Your time for a GSD will come and you will be a great Dad, but now is not that time.


THIS x100.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> They looked at my fence and yard and family and said everything is ok. They knew about the 2 dogs and the baby on the way as well. What seemed to sell them was the higher fence, nice neighborhood and clean environment. If I do anything it will be L.A.


I don't know what rescues you worked with. 
Most the ones I know, including myself, would have declined you a female Shepherd based on the fact you have a senior female dog (senior females are often very intolerant of other females, and especially puppies) and we do not adopt to people with kids under 7yrs. old, unless a larger breed and then usually anywhere from 10-12yrs. 
I would decline a family or couple who had a baby on the way. Babies and toddlers are too hard on dogs oftentimes, and parents do little to correct the child but often place 100% of the blame on the puppy/dog and it's brought back here. 

Fenced yards are great, but a solid, thought-out plan in place to potty and exercise the dog goes further IMO.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

stevo said:


> I have received a handful of pm's saying there are some not too experienced here who try to give advice...I'm not talking about you. I'm reading inbetween the lines with all these great suggestions, as some say slightly different things.


If that's true, it's disappointing to me. I am not sure who is qualified to determine the value of others posts. 
Forums are opinions and some will be polar opposites. That is the nature of it.
If years of experience with GSD's is the only requirement to post then there are four or five people who could answer everything. 
Their opinions still might not fit a family situation. Not only that but they don't always agree with each other.
I also don't think the use of too many PM's is helpful to these threads.
When I respond I give thought to my response. I'm sure others do the same.
Why waste time and energy if we are all not knowing what is going on behind the scenes.
No need for threads on some of these topics when you can just PM those who you choose to listen to.
I don't mind a public discussion even if everyone disagrees with my position.
I don't want to waste my time on something that is being decided elsewhere.
Some people drive me to distraction on here but I respect their right to a different opinion,
Very disgusted right now.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

stevo said:


> I have received a handful of pm's saying there are some not too experienced here who try to give advice...



I wonder what makes these people think they know the experience of other people and their posts? 

Its not a bad thing to take any advice with a grain of salt, but I would be wary of people who try to start gossip behind close doors.

There is alot of good advice..even if someone doesn't agree with it. No one is going to agree on everything. That would make things boring.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> *I would be wary of people who try to start gossip behind close doors.*


Speaking of "x 100", x 100 on this post because I have a feeling I know what's going on


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with GSD Dolche..If someone 'thinks' you are getting advice from people who are inexperienced or whatever, they should come on out and say it vs pm'ing little tidbits of gossip.

There may be some rescues who aren't to reputable out there, but there are MANY that ARE..

I know you don't want to go the rescue route, and that is certainly your choice. But I just wanted to throw that out there,,Rescues can be a tremendous help to those looking for it. 

Ok back to the original topic, I think walking the two "girls" together is a good idea as long as your seeing no problems..I honestly don't think your going to get them to 'like' each other and will most likely have to keep them separated but if your up to it, well then that's the way to go.

Something someone else mentioned to, that you should think about..Tho I have never seen it in my dogs,,I HAVE seen in my pack of cats,,one of the younger ones seems to 'pick' on the elderly ill cat I had,,like they 'sense' something, as in the "weak" of the old? 

While personally I just think you have a couple of females who DO NOT LIKE each other, it could also have something to do with the female cairn being elderly, and easy target, and maybe have something going on health wise that Nora picks right up on..

I still stand by my opinion, if you decide to rehome her, your cousin in LA sounds like the way to go.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

just so there's no misunderstanding...any contact i've had with steve off the public part of the board has been to respect a certain need for privacy relative to identies and locations, both his and the breeder of this puppy...i did let him know that he might want to develop a thick skin and did ask him to please not stop posting because people were blunt or less than kind in their suggestions, because there is a wealth of experience and knowledge on this board. i also told him that we have a non-urgent section where he could list his puppy and offered suggestions on screening potential adopters, should he choose that option, and tried to support him in his desire to keep nora, while at the same time telling him that *in my opinion *the plan to crate for longer periods of time was surely not an ideal solution. 

i never judge anyone's level of experience or their right to an opinion or even whether or not a poster with a problem chooses to accept or reject the advice/opinions given. i have been known, upon occasion, to warn new posters here to develop that thick skin tho.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I have nothing agains the use of PM's. The way he put it though, it almost sounded like a parallel thread but for a select few *real pros*.
It doesn't matter to me who the Op listens to either.
I just like to be aware of when I'm wasting my time.


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## stevo (Dec 26, 2011)

I would like to address I am not choosing who I listen to, as I stated, all have been great, and I'm using all advice to view from different angles. I simply stated I received a couple pm's from a couple different people, one of which has not posted on this thread, and was a little rude. It's going to take A LOT MORE than blunt kind advice from you guys to upset me. I used to work on the stock exchange floor with hungry evil people. 

Back to the topic. I tried introducing the girls yesterday in the kitchen. Nora was not leashed and I was right behind her. She ignored the cairn and then started sniffing her. Nora's body language let me know it wasn't good. I grabbed her collar before anything happened. I then took her with me outside, as she barked at the cairn the entire way??? I have also been in touch with a behaviorist, who I want to work with. All this aside, who knows if I can ever trust them together, probably not. To save my sanity and prevent this constant separation, my cousin is probably going to be receiving her, while I'm going to take the older cairn to the vet for another checkup. I'm sure she has some arthritis. It's a shame Nora and I may be parting ways, as she is truly outstanding, except with Roxy, but, as someone said early on, it may not be the right time for me, having such little kids. Maybe down the road when they are 8 or 10 years of age, will I MAYBE look at GSD again. If Roxy wasn't in the picture, I would be happier about the situation and would just keep her from the baby since she is powerful and could hurt him accidentally. I haven't been keeping her in the crate, instead, spending most of my time with her in our kitchen or walking her. Still haven't heard from the breeder after 2 emails in a week. Thank you all


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Why is that puppy even off a leash - ever??

Has it been brought up to keep her leashed even in the house so you have control over her?? Your grabbing the collar is making things more tense and makes it seem as if she's "wrong". All her interactions now have been negative except possibly the walks.

The first thing we tell our adopters, if there is stress/tension or out and out fights, is to keep dogs leashed at all times, especially if there's this huge age/size difference.


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