# want to understand and become a better pack leader



## song032005

here i have listed links to various sites that i have shared, as well as others on this board have shared links with me and other members.

it is mostly a collection of leadership methods that will help new dog owners relate to their dog(s) in a way your dog will understand. 

even if you have gone through basic obedience and your dog still doesnt listen to you and/or other members of your family, im sure you will find helpful info here to improve the situation but IMO you will see a great improvement in your dog and your relationship.

you will find alot of info within these sites very similar but in one way or another, they will have info that varies or in addition to.

these methods can help dogs that are stubborn as well as dogs that are timid. understanding them and what you convey to them is a big step in the right direction.

*other members you are welcome to post links and info that you feel will be helpful as well... please feel free to link this thread if you feel it will help someone.* 
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif

leadership links:

NILF-Nothing in life is free
http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/nothing-in-life-is-free-nilf/

leerburgs ground work
http://www.leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

how to be a good pack leader
http://www.forpaws.org/articles/alpha.htm

books on leadership:

jan fennell "the dog listener"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002G9...TF8&s=books

cesar millan "cesars way"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307337...TF8&s=books

general puppy/dog info:
http://canismajor.com/dog/topic1.html

mods if i posted this in the wrong section my apologizes.


----------



## artisgsd

Nice post, Angie! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


----------



## RoxyMom

I think it should be a "sticky" topic!!


----------



## song032005

thanks ladies!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


----------



## TinyKittenz

OMG this should DEF be a sticky, and where were you 2 months ago, when we got our first dog??!!???

THank you!!!

TK


----------



## artisgsd

She was here...where were you?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/32_poke.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/34_rotflmao.gif


----------



## riggins_mojo

What a great post Angie! I really appreciate this info. What is a "sticky" topic?


----------



## song032005

a sticky is what you see as a pushpin just before the subject name in the main sections of the board. there arent any in this section but you will find them throughout the board. it keeps the thread from moving down when posts are active with new post. so its always at the top of other threads.

will a mod fillful the request to sticky it, i dont know? but i wouldnt mind if they did if it helps others. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


----------



## 3K9Mom

Thanks. We had the perfect peaceful balanced pack with our two older K9 girls, my husband and me. But our new baby GSD has thrown the balance out of whack, so your timing is perfect for us! Bless you! 
Lori


----------



## woodhills

Nice. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif

And just what I need. I'm picking up my first GSD pup from the breeder tommorrow. Now I'm more prepared for her. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif

I just hope we can restrain from spoiling her. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/08_rolleyes.gif

Thanks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


----------



## Doreen210

Great post Angie, you have helped me so much over the past several months, I can't thank you enough. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif


----------



## song032005

glad this is helpful...just what i was hoping for. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif

doreen if anything i suggest helps your relationship with your boy that is all i need. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


----------



## song032005

bump /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/03_wink.gif


----------



## song032005

hope it helps you! bump /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


----------



## snmst0307

Bumping this back up, because I missed it until now, and I really NEED it right now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif Thanks a million!


----------



## DianaM

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Sticky?? Please??

Or can we have a forum dedicated to posting links to articles on training and behavior?


----------



## song032005

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

bump.., sticky? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/computerSmiley.gif


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

I'll try to contact the moderator(s) that can sticky this.


----------



## song032005

thanks!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif

my first sicky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


----------



## DianaM

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

[ QUOTE ]
thanks!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif

my first sicky /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh oh... did you just hwerf everywhere? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/34_rotflmao.gif
Congrats on the sticky! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif


----------



## song032005

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/34_rotflmao.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/15_ssst.gif oops!


----------



## Suka

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm


----------



## luvmdo

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I am adding this thread to my faves RIGHT NOW!!! Thank you so much!


----------



## CherryCola

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Thankyou so much Angie!!!! That 'Who's In Charge?' article was fantastic! I hadn't realised Logan was the 'alpha' male. I've been searching everywhere on how to get him to stop growling, ect. And everything that's been suggested so far hasn't worked because I'd tell him no or something and he'd answer me back or throw a tantrum and empty the dustbin /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/08_rolleyes.gif It was interesting to read, because it was like they were talking about my dog, lol.
I've been having quite a bit of trouble with him, so I'm really greatful, I'll be trying the stuff suggested out from today /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif


----------



## DianaM

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Excellent PDF file about groundwork and establishing leadership from Leerburg: http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf


----------



## song032005

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

does anyone want to share, if you had found this thread, applied any of the things mentioned and if it helped you? 

im sure folks would like to know how its working for others.


here is my share:
i use alot of the things mentioned here and it has helped me a great deal. one of the things i like especially is since forrest was a young pup i would have him sit and stay and wait for me to release him for his food and water bowls. it takes some time for them to learn but food is a great thing to get their focus. this helped so much in calming him down to wait patiently for his food, rather than running and jumping all over me in excitement. nothing worse then having half the bowl of water all over the floor. i was fortunite to find this info early on and incorperate it in our everyday lives. i also do the same thing when we are about to exit the house or put forrest in the car. before he gets petted, and even a few times during play time. it is a calmer for him and also reminding him that i am the one in control and as most of you know GSD like some other breeds can be very pushy when they want something, so this is a big help with any dog.

anyone else?


----------



## DanLW

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I don't own a GSD yet, but I'm doing my homework. I recently read Cesar's Way, and here is my non-professional review.

If you read some of the one star reviews at Amazon, you can easily get the wrong idea about the book. Claims range from the book being an autobiography to accusations that Cesar advocates the use of shock collars, which I have neithr read in the book nor seen in any of his season 1 television shows. (of which I've seen them all)

The first chapter is indeed a short autobiography. It basically provides the background to Cesar's life and how he got to where he is. However, once chapter 2 begins, the autobiography ends.

If you are looking for specific ways to deal with behavior problems, this is not what you're looking for. This book rather shares Cesar's philosophy of how dogs think, and how we need to act in order to be a calm assertive pack leader. This book is more for the person who wants to know how to act so that severe problems don't develop.

In Chapter 2 he shares his theory on the energy shared between all humans and animals. For example, a dog jumping up on somebody is excited energy. Likewise a human shouting at the dog jumping up on him is also displaying excited energy. It's this energy that we need to control so that our dog gets the right message. Types of energy include excited, nervous, agressive, calm-assertive, and calm-submissive. The first three are to be avoided by both the dog and the human.

Chapter 3 talks about dog psychology. In forming his views on dog psychology, Cesar indicates that the two books which most influenced and reassured him about what he knew about dogs were Dr. Bruce Fogle's "The Dog's Mind", and "Dog Psychology" by Leon F. Whitney, DVM. In this chapter he relates how dogs see things and how to relate to dogs. Dogs communicate with nose, eyes, ears, in that order. He mentions the proper way to meet a dog, and how to look at a dog: Animal, Species (Dog), Breed, Name/Personality. 

Chapter 4 talks about the "Power of the Pack". This is the idea the bringing an unbalanced dog into a balanced healthy pack is the best therapy for an unbalanced dog since the other dogs will teach it how to behave in a balanced manner.

Chapter 5 is about issues and "How we screw up our dogs". It talks about what leads to dominance aggression, fearful aggression, hyperactivity, anxiety, obsession, phobias, and low self esteem.

Chapter 6 is in regards to the "Red Zone". This is where dogs go when we allow them to progress through all the stages leading to lethal levels of aggression. A dog in the "Red Zone" will not listen to anything anybody has to say. It's basically a kill mode. In this chapter he leads off detailing the tragic story of a lady in San Francisco who was killed by two Presa Canario/Mastiffs back in January of 2001. Later in the chapter he points out the circumstances that allowed these two dogs to progress that far. He ends the chapter with an admission that there were two dogs whom he was unable to rehabilitate. Cedar, a 2-year old purebred pit bull, and a 5-year old chow/golden retriever mix named Brutus. Both dogs are living out life in a no-kill shelter, a result of abuse early on in their lives.

Chapter 7 explains Cesar's formula for raising a balanced and healthy dog. This formula is Exercise, Discipline, and Affection in that order. Exercise encompases walks with the human leading. Discipline can be summed up in rules, boundaries, and limitations. Affection is what our dogs earn by adhering to rules boundaries and limitations.

Chapter 8 is about living happily with your dog. This chapter talks about choosing a dog, bringing him home, and setting rules.

Chapter 9, the final chapter, is a short pep-talk about how we can fulfill ourselves by fulfilling our dogs. Basically Cesar states the reasons that we need dogs more than they need us. And that by fulfilling their needs, they will fulfill ours.


Overall the book is a very good read. It's not one of those technical dive straight in, go down deep, come up dry type books. It's a good book for anybody who wants to better understand how to live with a dog in harmony. Throughout the book Cesar relates back to specific cases where he helped rehabilitate dogs (and their owners). These cases are both cases seen in his television series and cases from before his series.

Again this is not a "How to Fix Your Problem Dog" book. You won't find specific advice for particular problems. Rather you will find what he believes to be the best way to relate to our dogs so that they never develop a serious problem.

If you're looking for more specific advice on being the pack leader, "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell would be a good read. She presents a version which leans more toward the "positive only" end of the spectrum, while still detailing how we should behave in order for our dogs to see us as the pack leader. Personally, I think that both these books go very well together, and recommend both.

As to how well the methods work, we'll see how my future GSD turnes out.

"Hello, Cesar? Help! My GSD throws a fit every time he misses 'The People's Court'!"


----------



## bearlasmom

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I agree this is a great read. I have jan fennels book and i find it very informative. Congrats,


----------



## DebbieDavidson

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Great post. I read a few of them over these past few months as I've acquired my dogs. It was great to have a refresher. These are topics that dog owners should revisit time and again. How quickly I forget and let down the "rules." 

Thank you!

Debbie


----------



## stephcrawfish

I just wanted to say, that this has been a HUGE help to me. I have only had Gretchen for 2 weeks now, and it was rough for a few days there, but I am doing the NILIF practices now, and OMG... what a drastic change in just a couple of days. It is truely remarkable. So thanks for all the links! What a breath of fresh air.


----------



## bearlasmom

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

obviously it should def be a sticky. you may want to add the book by jan fennel called the dog whisper to it. 

fantastic info that you have added. take a bow


----------



## DianaM

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

http://www.k9deb.com/socialis.htm

A great link that was posted by Cassidy's Mom regarding the usage of social isolation in reinforcing leadership.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I just read a great article by Pat Miller in the Whole Dog Journal called "Biscuits, Not Rolls". It's about using alpha rolls, and other forms of physical dominance with your dog and why it's not a good idea. The article is from July 06, I'm a little behind in my reading, lol! I can't paste it here without violating copyright laws, but there are a couple of things I'd like to paraphrase and add to this thread.

She writes that Ethology studies from the 70's and 80's suggest that canine social structure holds together because _appeasement behaviors are offered by subordinate members, not because higher ranking members demand subservience_. Successful leaders calmly control the good stuff, the basis for modern positive training as an appropriate and effective method for creating a harmonious mixed species social group. 

She quotes Dr. Karen Overall's book Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals: "The behavior of the lower ranking status individuals, _not_ the higher ranking one, is what determines the relative hierarchical rank. Truly high-ranking animals are tolerant of lower-ranking ones".

Pat Miller goes on to ssay that training methods that encourage dogs to offer deference behaviors, and then reward them for it, are a much closer approximation of actual pack behavior than any application of force. As she says, use biscuits (training treats), not (alpha) rolls. 

She also quotes Steven Lindsay in his Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training Volume One: Etiology and Assessment of Behavior Problems - "A wise lupine leader avoids unnecessary dominance contests and assertions of authority". He goes on to cite a 1988 study by E. Fonberg, Dominance and Aggression, that notes that dominance established without resorting to aggression appears to be more stable than dominance maintained by constant vigilance and displays of strength. 

So basically, you wait for and encourage your dog to offer deference behaviors in order to make good stuff happen, and ignore pushy behavior so that it's not rewarded. Some people are concerned that teaching your dog that he can get you to click and treat by offering certain behaviors elevates his status because _he's_ controlling _you_. She states that a dog's psychological response to deference behaviors appears to be so hardwired that if a dog repeatedly performs them he _becomes_deferent. He's not an actor - if he _does_ deference, he _is_ deferent.


----------



## DianaM

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Good post. I would like to add that if one decides to use alpha rolls, please be aware that you could easily require reconstructive plastic surgery. Even with a muzzle, equipment fails. Anyone doing an alpha roll should understand and be okay with losing a finger, nose, or face. 

Being the huge Star Trek fan that I am, there is an episode of Star Trek that shows Captain Picard as part of a renegade crew of artifact thieves. The leader of that crew controlled everyone with pain-inflicting collars. Everyone obeyed because if they didn't, they would collapse in horrendous pain. During the episode, the undercover Picard gained the trust of the crew and led an uprising against the crew's leader. Victorious, he destroyed the device that controlled the pain collars and said something like there would be no more pain. He then proceeded to take control of the situation. Everyone obeyed him, but this time willingly and free of pain, and even a bit more enthusiastically. One can be a leader through compulsion, but through fairness and respect will make the human-dog bond go a lot farther. Dictators can lead, but they never make good leaders.


----------



## larrydee33

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

There is so much misconception and myth about all of this.
Kevin Behan has written a book called Natural Dog Training I feel it has groundbreaking material that will affect the way we view our dogs and interact with them.
Kevin puts it all together very nicely before we got bits and pieces here and there it is a work that is over 30 years in the making.

Let's take the wolf for instance and the concept of the Alpha. Kevin feels the Alpha is the wolf with the most uninhibited temperment. What drives the wolf and our dogs are their prey drives. It's not that simple but a good starting point. Dogs don't have intellegence but are in tune with nature and their natural drives.
During a hunt is when it all comes into play each wolf has his own job this is not communicted by the alpha but flows naturally thru the prey or hunt drive they instivily know what their job is at the time of the kill each wolf attacks a specific part of the body.

This is not light bed time reading but it will help you better understand your dog and to be in harmony with him so both of you can have a much deeper relationship and for once truly understand how to train your dog working with him not against him.

Natural Dog Training is avaiable thru Amazon.com Kevin's web site is http://www.naturaldogtraining.com


----------



## mjbgsd

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*



> Originally Posted By: DanLWI don't own a GSD yet, but I'm doing my homework. I recently read Cesar's Way, and here is my non-professional review.
> 
> If you read some of the one star reviews at Amazon, you can easily get the wrong idea about the book. Claims range from the book being an autobiography to accusations that Cesar advocates the use of shock collars, which I have neithr read in the book nor seen in any of his season 1 television shows. (of which I've seen them all)
> 
> The first chapter is indeed a short autobiography. It basically provides the background to Cesar's life and how he got to where he is. However, once chapter 2 begins, the autobiography ends.
> 
> If you are looking for specific ways to deal with behavior problems, this is not what you're looking for. This book rather shares Cesar's philosophy of how dogs think, and how we need to act in order to be a calm assertive pack leader. This book is more for the person who wants to know how to act so that severe problems don't develop.
> 
> In Chapter 2 he shares his theory on the energy shared between all humans and animals. For example, a dog jumping up on somebody is excited energy. Likewise a human shouting at the dog jumping up on him is also displaying excited energy. It's this energy that we need to control so that our dog gets the right message. Types of energy include excited, nervous, agressive, calm-assertive, and calm-submissive. The first three are to be avoided by both the dog and the human.
> 
> Chapter 3 talks about dog psychology. In forming his views on dog psychology, Cesar indicates that the two books which most influenced and reassured him about what he knew about dogs were Dr. Bruce Fogle's "The Dog's Mind", and "Dog Psychology" by Leon F. Whitney, DVM. In this chapter he relates how dogs see things and how to relate to dogs. Dogs communicate with nose, eyes, ears, in that order. He mentions the proper way to meet a dog, and how to look at a dog: Animal, Species (Dog), Breed, Name/Personality.
> 
> Chapter 4 talks about the "Power of the Pack". This is the idea the bringing an unbalanced dog into a balanced healthy pack is the best therapy for an unbalanced dog since the other dogs will teach it how to behave in a balanced manner.
> 
> Chapter 5 is about issues and "How we screw up our dogs". It talks about what leads to dominance aggression, fearful aggression, hyperactivity, anxiety, obsession, phobias, and low self esteem.
> 
> Chapter 6 is in regards to the "Red Zone". This is where dogs go when we allow them to progress through all the stages leading to lethal levels of aggression. A dog in the "Red Zone" will not listen to anything anybody has to say. It's basically a kill mode. In this chapter he leads off detailing the tragic story of a lady in San Francisco who was killed by two Presa Canario/Mastiffs back in January of 2001. Later in the chapter he points out the circumstances that allowed these two dogs to progress that far. He ends the chapter with an admission that there were two dogs whom he was unable to rehabilitate. Cedar, a 2-year old purebred pit bull, and a 5-year old chow/golden retriever mix named Brutus. Both dogs are living out life in a no-kill shelter, a result of abuse early on in their lives.
> 
> Chapter 7 explains Cesar's formula for raising a balanced and healthy dog. This formula is Exercise, Discipline, and Affection in that order. Exercise encompases walks with the human leading. Discipline can be summed up in rules, boundaries, and limitations. Affection is what our dogs earn by adhering to rules boundaries and limitations.
> 
> Chapter 8 is about living happily with your dog. This chapter talks about choosing a dog, bringing him home, and setting rules.
> 
> Chapter 9, the final chapter, is a short pep-talk about how we can fulfill ourselves by fulfilling our dogs. Basically Cesar states the reasons that we need dogs more than they need us. And that by fulfilling their needs, they will fulfill ours.
> 
> 
> Overall the book is a very good read. It's not one of those technical dive straight in, go down deep, come up dry type books. It's a good book for anybody who wants to better understand how to live with a dog in harmony. Throughout the book Cesar relates back to specific cases where he helped rehabilitate dogs (and their owners). These cases are both cases seen in his television series and cases from before his series.
> 
> Again this is not a "How to Fix Your Problem Dog" book. You won't find specific advice for particular problems. Rather you will find what he believes to be the best way to relate to our dogs so that they never develop a serious problem.
> 
> If you're looking for more specific advice on being the pack leader, "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell would be a good read. She presents a version which leans more toward the "positive only" end of the spectrum, while still detailing how we should behave in order for our dogs to see us as the pack leader. Personally, I think that both these books go very well together, and recommend both.
> 
> As to how well the methods work, we'll see how my future GSD turnes out.
> 
> "Hello, Cesar? Help! My GSD throws a fit every time he misses 'The People's Court'!"



This book is an excellent read! Some things in it I don't agree but all in all, I agree with everything he has to say in this book. The way he handles dogs is just amazing!


----------



## J_Austin

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Completely agree with the wonderful summary of these 2 books. Cesar has wonderful advice as does Jan. Depending on the dog, one approach may work better than the other. For most dogs, the best approach would probably be a blend of the two.

jeff



> Originally Posted By: mjbgsd
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: DanLWI don't own a GSD yet, but I'm doing my homework. I recently read Cesar's Way, and here is my non-professional review.
> 
> If you read some of the one star reviews at Amazon, you can easily get the wrong idea about the book. Claims range from the book being an autobiography to accusations that Cesar advocates the use of shock collars, which I have neithr read in the book nor seen in any of his season 1 television shows. (of which I've seen them all)
> 
> The first chapter is indeed a short autobiography. It basically provides the background to Cesar's life and how he got to where he is. However, once chapter 2 begins, the autobiography ends.
> 
> If you are looking for specific ways to deal with behavior problems, this is not what you're looking for. This book rather shares Cesar's philosophy of how dogs think, and how we need to act in order to be a calm assertive pack leader. This book is more for the person who wants to know how to act so that severe problems don't develop.
> 
> In Chapter 2 he shares his theory on the energy shared between all humans and animals. For example, a dog jumping up on somebody is excited energy. Likewise a human shouting at the dog jumping up on him is also displaying excited energy. It's this energy that we need to control so that our dog gets the right message. Types of energy include excited, nervous, agressive, calm-assertive, and calm-submissive. The first three are to be avoided by both the dog and the human.
> 
> Chapter 3 talks about dog psychology. In forming his views on dog psychology, Cesar indicates that the two books which most influenced and reassured him about what he knew about dogs were Dr. Bruce Fogle's "The Dog's Mind", and "Dog Psychology" by Leon F. Whitney, DVM. In this chapter he relates how dogs see things and how to relate to dogs. Dogs communicate with nose, eyes, ears, in that order. He mentions the proper way to meet a dog, and how to look at a dog: Animal, Species (Dog), Breed, Name/Personality.
> 
> Chapter 4 talks about the "Power of the Pack". This is the idea the bringing an unbalanced dog into a balanced healthy pack is the best therapy for an unbalanced dog since the other dogs will teach it how to behave in a balanced manner.
> 
> Chapter 5 is about issues and "How we screw up our dogs". It talks about what leads to dominance aggression, fearful aggression, hyperactivity, anxiety, obsession, phobias, and low self esteem.
> 
> Chapter 6 is in regards to the "Red Zone". This is where dogs go when we allow them to progress through all the stages leading to lethal levels of aggression. A dog in the "Red Zone" will not listen to anything anybody has to say. It's basically a kill mode. In this chapter he leads off detailing the tragic story of a lady in San Francisco who was killed by two Presa Canario/Mastiffs back in January of 2001. Later in the chapter he points out the circumstances that allowed these two dogs to progress that far. He ends the chapter with an admission that there were two dogs whom he was unable to rehabilitate. Cedar, a 2-year old purebred pit bull, and a 5-year old chow/golden retriever mix named Brutus. Both dogs are living out life in a no-kill shelter, a result of abuse early on in their lives.
> 
> Chapter 7 explains Cesar's formula for raising a balanced and healthy dog. This formula is Exercise, Discipline, and Affection in that order. Exercise encompases walks with the human leading. Discipline can be summed up in rules, boundaries, and limitations. Affection is what our dogs earn by adhering to rules boundaries and limitations.
> 
> Chapter 8 is about living happily with your dog. This chapter talks about choosing a dog, bringing him home, and setting rules.
> 
> Chapter 9, the final chapter, is a short pep-talk about how we can fulfill ourselves by fulfilling our dogs. Basically Cesar states the reasons that we need dogs more than they need us. And that by fulfilling their needs, they will fulfill ours.
> 
> 
> Overall the book is a very good read. It's not one of those technical dive straight in, go down deep, come up dry type books. It's a good book for anybody who wants to better understand how to live with a dog in harmony. Throughout the book Cesar relates back to specific cases where he helped rehabilitate dogs (and their owners). These cases are both cases seen in his television series and cases from before his series.
> 
> Again this is not a "How to Fix Your Problem Dog" book. You won't find specific advice for particular problems. Rather you will find what he believes to be the best way to relate to our dogs so that they never develop a serious problem.
> 
> If you're looking for more specific advice on being the pack leader, "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell would be a good read. She presents a version which leans more toward the "positive only" end of the spectrum, while still detailing how we should behave in order for our dogs to see us as the pack leader. Personally, I think that both these books go very well together, and recommend both.
> 
> As to how well the methods work, we'll see how my future GSD turnes out.
> 
> "Hello, Cesar? Help! My GSD throws a fit every time he misses 'The People's Court'!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This book is an excellent read! Some things in it I don't agree but all in all, I agree with everything he has to say in this book. The way he handles dogs is just amazing!
Click to expand...


----------



## CurlySu717

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Ok, so I'm wondering if anyone has actually done, word-for-word, what Frawley wrote about Groundwork. I thought that the NILIF article was great, and I also liked the forpaws.org article on being a pack leader. In retrospect, the mistake my Dad made with his GSD was that he never truly established himself as the pack leader -- and I make that statement based on Dixie's behavior. 

However, as I'm about to adopt a very shy and timid rescue GSD, I can't imagine leaving her in her crate for weeks and only interacting with her to feed her and walk her. I'm afraid the dog will become even more shy and timid and even withdrawn. 

Don't get me wrong, I believe that pack structure needs to be established, I'm just not sure his method is the best for a naturally shy, submissive dog. It seems to me that I would be able to establish myself as the alpha without putting the dog in solitary confinement! 

Thoughts? Opinions? Comments? I'm open to it all -- I want to be a good doggie mommy!


----------



## song032005

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

curlysu717, good for you for preparing before you bring her home.









i think that folks could see two sides of whether fawleys methods would work on a shy dog. some may believe that developing a strong leadership role fawleys way would give the dog no reason to be so timid, because the dog would have complete confidence in his leader, and maybe some will feel as you stated and it could backslide the dog because its too harsh for such a sensitive soul. the wonderful thing about free-will is you can take the information you learn and apply only the ones you are comfortable with and what that dog can relate to. i have applied some of each method. 

but IMO i think fawleys methods can be very affective for a strong-willed and/or dominant dog that prehaps doesnt respect leadership of a human as easily as prehaps a timid and/or submissive dog in nature would respond to. timid dogs can be as unpredictable as an aggressive dog if leadership isnt established because it can force them to react because no one is protecting them and thats a leaders job as well. building a relationship with a dog that you are leader and that all thing comes from you is only part of it. being the one that makes decisions on the packs behalf is the other. also, IMO its a state of mind as well, and if you are NOT consiously and subconsiously comfortable with a certain method, i think it would do more harm then good.
















there is another thing to consider, the level of the dogs timidness. and why i think that no one way works for all dogs.









here is what i would suggest, find out as much as you can about the dogs history, so you have some idea of what she has been through. have a behaviorist assess the dog once you take ownership so you know what YOU are actually dealing with, so you know how the dog is responding to you and your lifestyle. dont allow the dog loose out of your sight at any time whether in your home or out in your yard, because you dont know what can set her off and this will avoid putting her and others in danger or put her in the position of feeling like she is in danger. she needs to learn to trust you and you need to learn if you can trust her and you cant give her a fair chance if she is left to fend for herself. scope through this site there are alot of us that have timid dogs [myself included] that have threads here with lots of infomation. and again dogs are not the same but it does help to learn different senerios and different prespectives. 

a few added things. taking your dog for walks, and playing does help build a bond and trust between the both of you, be sure to put that into your everyday. its one thing when you have to be cautious with owning a timid dog in the world, but nothing is truly better when against all odds you can still have a companion that you know trusts you. they are all loving creatures no matter what their quirks are, we just have to offer them the right balance to be happy.







good luck with your girl and i hope something i said here helps.


----------



## Timber1

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Before and after getting my German Sheherd Dog, Timber, I have read numerous books and articles about the breed. These include Ed Frawley's stuff, Ceasar Millan, The Monks of New Skete, a few written by Vets, Chris Wild's, the Third Way and of course Particia McConnell. 

Some seemed to be a bit contradictory, which raised questions, and I am thankful to the folks on this board because they helped resolve some of my questions that specifically related to Timber.

However, I am 100% convinced that as a new owner and their GSD bond, the new owner will begin to recognize the best training methods for their pup. 

Ed,s advice is generally good; however, training police and military dogs is quite different then having a companion dog who was never "leader of the pack". When I sought out Chris for advice on Timber she provided several suggests. One of the most important was you need to understand your dog, not vice-versa. You have a great puppy and once you figure him out your are literally home free.

In the case of your dog I do not think it will be very difficult to establish yourself as the leader. Your dog sounds like it needs someone it can trust, and in my opinion does not need any type of harsh treatment. Once that trust is established you are the leader. 

NILIF is great, never use solitary confinement, and spend as much time as possible with your dog. This guy needs a leader he can trust.


----------



## krystaltiger

How is it I just found this post too? Now that the pup is three, she is hitting another stage in life, and I can tell we have a lot still to learn.

Thanks


----------



## grantK9

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I see Cesar's Way posted. I highly recommend Ceasar's new book Be The Pack Leader. You don't have to have read Cesar's way to read this book. 

I will say this we are fortunate that dogs live in the moment and almost any behavior can be modified and lesson taught. I did learn from my trainer that most things that don't catch with the dog are either because I am inconsistent, dogs don't think in context, down can be get off me and be lay down. That type of thing.


----------



## xwildman138x

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

awesome stuff, I can't wait to get my pup. I've been reading for 6 months about shepherds and didn't realize how much I didn't know about dogs. I'm not getting a puppy, I'm getting a young mind thats willing to learn all that I teach it. The more I teach and train the better it is for him. I can't wait to start his training. couple weeks!!!


----------



## blackbirdzach

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*



> Originally Posted By: DanLWI don't own a GSD yet, but I'm doing my homework. I recently read Cesar's Way, and here is my non-professional review.


Thanks for the great review! I've been thinking about picking this book up, but I have a couple of other ones to read first.


----------



## mjbgsd

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Since it's been a few months since I last posted in this thread, I have changed my mind about Cesar. He is AMAZING. Using his techniques has helped my dogs become better followers and me, a better pack leader. The walk is so important, and watching his 2nd season and reading his book, my dogs are so much calmer now. Plus, cesar is good looking.


----------



## umeir

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Following website is terribly informative. Many good articles, book recommendations and different view points. Worth the read.

http://www.fourpawsuniversity.com/dogpsychology.htm

Cheers,

Huck


----------



## ryeguy355

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

nice post.


----------



## Riptide

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

This is just what I needed. I have two females, one who is extremely dominant and one who is extremely timid and submissive. I am definately going to start applying what I have read here to what goes on in the house.

Thank you for this post!


----------



## Doggydog

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Good thread. Thanks everyone for providing some great information links. 
I've saved the links for thorough read later. I've raised 2 very alpha females in the past. My current dog is a punk, bottom of the rank. But my new GSD pup is naturally confident and curious. When she hits adolescence I will be putting these leadership ideas to good use!

Just for me personally, I don't care for Leerburg at all. We disagree completely on the issue of dog runs.{and other issues}
I have used dog runs for 22 years, with 5 dogs, and have never had a problem. I'm sure if a dog isn't raised being social in this way it could be trouble. I know there are dogs who can not come in because they are prone to fight. Most dogs establish their pack order in clues they give ea. other which are non-violent. 
An alpha dog's person must be clear what is correct behavior so the dog will not cause trouble. 
I rehabilitated my rescued rott who was a tyrannt and wanted to bite people and other dogs. Once she knew I was the leader and that the behavior was unacceptable to me, she transformed into the sweetest huggy bear and we enjoyed years of fun in the dog parks w/ no further incidents. All it took was a couple strong corrections, ie turning her onto her back in front of her intended victim while I put my knee on her chest and a hand at her throat saying bad dog. I did this 2 times and she never attempted an attack again. Turning over a fully grown rottie is not so easy, I weigh only 10 lbs more than she, but I used the element of surprise and pulled her 2 outside legs out from under her wo hesitation. Everything turned around from this correction, I gained her respect and compliance from that point.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*



> Quote:All it took was a couple strong corrections, ie turning her onto her back in front of her intended victim while I put my knee on her chest and a hand at her throat saying bad dog. I did this 2 times and she never attempted an attack again. Turning over a fully grown rottie is not so easy, I weigh only 10 lbs more than she, but I used the element of surprise and pulled her 2 outside legs out from under her wo hesitation. Everything turned around from this correction, I gained her respect and compliance from that point.


Words fail me.


----------



## dannygirl8

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

We just started our 6 week clicker training class yesterday evening. It is being sponsored by our local Animal Shelter. I have heard of possitive results from them so we signed up. The first meeting, you do not bring the dog (we have a 5 1/2 mos.old GS mix). Well the first thing the trainer asked is does anyone watch the dog whisperer. I raised my hand with several other people. He proceeded to tell us to forget everything that we have learned from Cesar. He said Cesar is mean to the dogs using dominance and pushing the dogs down. He said Cesar encouraged electronic collars, etc. He went on with a 30 min speech about wolves and packs and that our dogs do not respond to a pack leader and do not have dominant dogs in groups. My mouth just dropped. I decided I would stay for the class (as it was already paid for), but only learn how to clicker train. This guy was a fruitcake. Oh well, I guess it takes all kind. The funny thing is as much as he said bad stuff about Cesar, throughout the class, he would mention things that I've heard cesar say (except about pack leaders, dominance). Just wanted to share that with someone and see what you think. Has anyone else had trainers, etc. say stuff like that?


----------



## RavenSophi

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Some people like him, some don't. Do your research and see what works for your dog. Some dogs don't do well with his methods and others need it. That is one thing you will see in the dog world. You get trainers who go pure motivational and others who use pure compulsion...then you get those who use all of the methods combined. So for a pure motivational trainer Cesar will look like the devil. 

But from what your trainer said about dogs not responding to a pack leader and there not being dominant dogs in a group...I'd say get yourself a new trainer as he's talking out of his backside.


----------



## twilitewulf

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Cesar doesn't obedience train dogs, he teaches them how to live peacefully with their owners. Trainers that rant about how "mean" and "cruel" his methods are have never bothered to take the time to understand them. The Dog Whisperer show is for entertainment purposes, hence the big disclaimer to not try these techniques yourself. The books are where Cesar provides information that you can safely apply to your dogs, and in one of them, I think it was Cesar's Way, he explains his theories of dog behavior and dominance and pack leaders. He does not use, nor does he recommend, the use of pain in any situation. He promotes NILIF, although he doesn't call it that, and attaining a balanced dog by providing sufficient exercise (mental and physical) and discipline (NOT punishment - there IS a difference, think discipline as it applies towards people who are learning martial arts). 

All that being said, I've seen a number of articles on websites for positive reinforcement trainers that say a lot of the things your trainer said. It's sad that these people, who are considered experts in their training fields, publicly slander a person whose techniques they simply don't understand. Personally I wouldn't give someone who was that closed-minded MY money. I don't care how famous or renowned they are for what they do, someone that provides training services for dogs should be able to think outside the box, or how could they deal with "special" cases?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I think the people who are opposed to Cesar's methods understand them quite well. Many of them used those methods themselves at one time. 

Basically the good things he does are not really any different than the good things pretty much every other trainer does, and since he didn't make those methods up himself he's not revolutionary for using them. It's the bad things, (like flooding), that other trainers don't like because there are better ways, and done wrong can make a situation so much worse to the point of being dangerous. Some of his techniques are antiquated, and dog training has come a long way in the past 20, 30, 40 years.

Increasing mental and physical stimulation is a fine thing, and so is discipline in the form of imposing rules and structure, but again, he doesn't hold a patent on those ideas. Any decent dog trainer will tell you the same things.
 








And a dog training show aimed at the masses should not need a "do not try this at home" disclaimer.


----------



## twilitewulf

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I don't think flooding in and of itself is necessarily a bad technique. As you said, it can be done wrong and create even more problems, but if done correctly it can fix those problems. Dogs with extreme fear that go into shut-down mode aren't going to respond to food, and it's much more cruel to make a dog live its entire life with a debilitating fear than it is to force the dog to face its fear, make it a positive experience, and allow the dog to live a normal life thereafter.

None of his techniques are revolutionary, his ideas about energy have been around in eastern cultures for thousands of years. The things that he recommends people to do with their dogs are not harmful physically or psychologically to the dogs. His methods of resolving severe issues on his show are more contraversial, but he doesn't recommend that you go out and DIY, it does take a professional to correctly diagnose a dog's problem, the source of its problem, and the best way to address the problem. I don't claim to be a behaviorist OR a professional trainer, but I do keep an open mind. Just like I wouldn't go out and attempt to jump a flaming motorcylce over 12 RVs parked side-by-side, I also wouldn't take an extremely fearful dog and try to rehabilitate it myself. Some things are better left to the experts. Of course not all experts agree, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong - all I'm saying is that people who immediately write off Cesar as being cruel are closed-minded.


----------



## big_dog7777

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

The other thing with Ceasar is LOTS OF EDITING. I watch the show for entertainment purposes, and was waiting to see what would happen when he got his hands on a REAL dog. A dog that is not fearful, or just wild - but a dog that would be willing to stand up to a man. A dog that needed to be respected, and could not just be bulllied into compliance. I finally saw one on his show a while back. It was a show about a couple that had two wolf hybrids - and the female was one hellacious alpha BITCH. I wanted to see him work with her and try to roll/pin her - with or without a muzzle. Sure enough, he tries and she WILL NOT roll. Her body language shows she is ready to try and eat him for real, and then *POOF* the magic of television editing happens and the scene changes to him working with the much easier male. 

Try to handle a confident civil dog that you have not bonded to the way he does and you will get eaten. I would pay to see him try that stuff on Diesel. ASK him to down with respect, he will do it every time. Try and force him on his side...


----------



## dannygirl8

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

I don't agree w/Cesar on everything and his overdominating, but it does seem that our dogs do pick up on our energies like he suggests (I guess that is nothing new). And the trainer we had last night said there was no such thing as dominant dogs/positions. I disagree with that. I've seen it before with several dogs.


----------



## SuzyE

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

to understand cesar is to understand his PHILOSOPHY, and in my opinion he is right. I am a pet sitter and many of my clients's dogs are well behaved for me and not their owner. frankly i don't have time to take their crappy behavior, sometimes I have 15-20 jobs in a day. so basically I have them all trained to do exactly as I say.None of this chasing you around the yard etc. I am loving but they know the score, they love me and respect me and they see ME as their leader, not their parents.
A few yrs ago my friend and I went and saw cesar at a highschool! imagine that! I have never seen such a magnetic individual, he lite up the whole room. we were all mezmorized by him. I have never in my life met a person who loved dogs more than Cesar Millan.It was SOOOOOOOOOOO obvious. he was warm and funny and very interactive with the audience. for the first time in my life I felt like I finally met a person who loves dogs as much as I do-enough to commit an entire career to them.
Cesar Millan is much much more than a tv show. I named one of my GSDs Cesar after him, that's how much I admire Cesar Millan.


----------



## SuzyE

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

might I add your trainer is absolutly out of his mind and Paige would have eaten that person alive.


----------



## doggiedad

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

i've never worried pack leader. what's a dog need to be pack leader for? we do everything for our dogs. we bring them their food and water, we drive them around while they ride in the back of the car, we open and hold doors for them, we bathe them, etc.

we get a puppy. we socialize and train our dogs. we go to puppy class then OB class. through all of the things we do for our dogs everything falls in order.

i've never used NILIF. i give my dog hugs, treats, rubs whenever.
i step over my dog. if i need him to move he does. my is allowed on the bed and sofa. rarely does him get on them. when it comes to feeding our dog he normally eats first. it's easier for us to get up, take the dog out, bring him home, then feed him. my dog normally lays down in the hallway untill we call him into the kitchen when his food is ready. when we eat my dog doesn't crowd the table.

we bonded with our dog. dominance was never an issue. i think through socializing, training and feeding and giving your dog a lot of attention everything falls into order.


----------



## SuzyE

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

obviously you never had a dog like Paige. I have had three easy dogs-and then there's Paige. Paige was over the top dominant and w/o clamping down on her she would have bit someone by now. she was capable of killing someone. Be glad you never had to deal. Like I said-THREE other dogs, and I work with dogs all day long-not one even comes close to Paige. Thank God for my trainers who were nearly attacked by my dog but stuck with me and changed her in six weeks. they point blank told me "this is NOT going to be pretty."
kissing Paige's butt in the early yrs were a BIG BIG mistake, I wanted a sweet dog like my other three who took literally zero training and listened to everything I said. To this day Paige is a challenge-she is 10 yrs old. she needed cesar millan treatment from day one but I had a late start at age three.


----------



## Catu

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*



> Originally Posted By: doggiedadi've never worried pack leader. what's a dog need to be pack leader for? we do everything for our dogs. we bring them their food and water, we drive them around while they ride in the back of the car, we open and hold doors for them, we bathe them, etc.
> 
> we get a puppy. we socialize and train our dogs. we go to puppy class then OB class. through all of the things we do for our dogs everything falls in order.
> 
> i've never used NILIF. i give my dog hugs, treats, rubs whenever.
> i step over my dog. if i need him to move he does. my is allowed on the bed and sofa. rarely does him get on them. when it comes to feeding our dog he normally eats first. it's easier for us to get up, take the dog out, bring him home, then feed him. my dog normally lays down in the hallway untill we call him into the kitchen when his food is ready. when we eat my dog doesn't crowd the table.
> 
> we bonded with our dog. dominance was never an issue. i think through socializing, training and feeding and giving your dog a lot of attention everything falls into order.


Probably beause you are a natural pack leader. Nilif and all that stuff is for people who need to start understanding the concept, who needs to be concentious of what they do or before they realize the pup is maing the rules. I've never used NILIF either in that way, I just live by the idea that I'm more important than my dog and even when I love her to pieces and can't move a foot out of the house without her and sleeps in my bed she is not a baby. I don't fo roll over, but I am physical if I have to be.

The day my dog get opposable thumbs, then we'll start talking of her rights.


----------



## IliamnasQuest

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

The main problem I have with Millan is that his methods are based on FORCE - and that force usually includes pain. That's why he uses a tight leash/collar directly behind the ears. That's a sensitive place on a dog, and with a choking-style collar you can produce a tremendous amount of pain for a dog. That allows him to do those "miraculous" handlings where he takes a scared, upset dog and suddenly has it walking quietly at his side. The dog is trying to avoid the pain. Because its wearing a chocking collar, the dog can't protest in any way as it can't even breathe. 

And the flooding he's used is truly pathetic and, in my opinion, often abusive. I've seen him take dogs that were SO obviously fearful and drag them into situations where they were so frightened they simply shut down in fear. This doesn't fix anything! But to the uneducated, the dog is no longer fighting with him so it must be "working". 

I pity the dogs that go through his show, and the dogs that live in his concrete jungle. He's a man that capitalizes on his ability to force dogs into submission, all the while flashing a sh*it-eating grin that mesmerizes the public.

I agree that dogs need more exercise than they typically get, and that dogs need to have proper leadership - these are things that have been said for decades before Millan came along. 

People watch his show and try to emulate him, and the poor dogs suffer for it. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## SarainVT

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Wow, interesting debate on Cesar Millan. I happen to incorporate several training styles, depending on the dog. As a foster, I have different dogs coming in and out of my established and well balanced pack almost every month. I felt it important to be as well educated as possible, and to stay current on training methods. I am now in clicker training with my border collie/min pin mix. I had never done it before, and I will always prefer reward based training methods. I do feel NILIF can be valuable, and I also like to follow Turid Rugaas' calming signals, depending on the dog. However, while I may not incorporate every method Cesar uses, there are some really good things Cesar teaches owners. Your energy and commitment to exercise are very important. I have learned that "calm assertive," not excited dominant, is always the way to be when there is negative behavior. I also greatly admire his dedication to shelter and rescue dogs. Sorry, but there is no way in **** my clicker training center would ever take on some of the cases he does.


----------



## norske

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

It is very distressing to read of so many people praising some very outmoded modalities of training.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*

Here is a great article I found on Dog Star Daily: Leadership vs Dominance 



> Quote:Leadership is a grossly misunderstood concept. Leadership is often associated with words like “dominance”, “alpha”, “authority”, “respect”, and “challenge”. Rarely, if ever, is it associated with the word “trust”. Which may explain the tremendous lack of demonstrated leadership present in today’s human society!
> 
> Leadership is a role that requires the earning of trust from followers. Trust cannot be demanded. Force (the tool of the Dominator) creates resistance. Trust can only be given, not taken. Leadership, unlike "dominance", requires followers to CHOOSE to follow. Trust is broken in a heartbeat, but repaired, re-earned, only over a long period of time--not hours, but days, weeks, even months or years. Sometimes, it's irreparably broken.
> 
> An individual dog always has the right to choose whether to follow another dog or not. Even the most severe aggression will not force an individual dog to follow a leader it does not willingly choose to follow. It is only the benefit offered by the leader that encourages a follower to follow.


----------



## Effie325

*Re: want to understand and become a better pack le*



> Originally Posted By: norskeIt is very distressing to read of so many people praising some very outmoded modalities of training.


Definitely.


----------



## HappyKewlGirl7

You have shared some great links here that I know I will find very useful as I learn about my new Puppy. Thanks


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Great video


----------



## Brooke

Great info thanks!!


----------



## Wolfgeist

Thank you very much for sharing these informative links!


----------



## packmentality

While I agree that the terms Dominance or submissiveness are often misused, his generalizations are just as misleading.
Example; dogs jumping ARE often Human induced, but the main reason is canine behavior. The dog communicates to others by targeting many body parts, primarily the mouth. Videos like this are taking the generalizations of misguided "behaviorist" and taking a extreme opposite view of training.
It's a shame that positive reinforcement training as this gentlemen is a proponent of, takes the adversary position, without being open to behaviorist such as I, that utilizes behavior in a positive way. 
I agree that over corrections, misreading behavior, then scruffing a dog can be counter productive.., I also believe that merely because YOU think that dogs don't understand a packmentality doesn't make it true.
Dogs are hard wired in their communication, and many studies these camps rely on in their smear campaign are often not complete, or all together false.
It's important to research the trainer and their methods, but to also research behavior in canines. Using a treat based training ONLY "positive reinforcement", will often result in inappropriate behavior, because the treats are what the dog is focusing on, not the handler. 
I wish both sides of these camps of training would get over themselves, and realize that the generalization of ones methods is not only incorrect, but detrimental to the bonding of your pet.
Kind Regards,
Mike Ward
Pack Mentality training


----------



## packmentality

packmentality said:


> While I agree that the terms Dominance or submissiveness are often misused, his generalizations are just as misleading.
> Example; dogs jumping ARE often Human induced, but the main reason is canine behavior. The dog communicates to others by targeting many body parts, primarily the mouth. Videos like this are taking the generalizations of misguided "behaviorist" and taking a extreme opposite view of training.
> It's a shame that positive reinforcement training as this gentlemen is a proponent of, takes the adversary position, without being open to behaviorist such as I, that utilizes behavior in a positive way.
> I agree that over corrections, misreading behavior, then scruffing a dog can be counter productive.., I also believe that merely because YOU think that dogs don't understand a packmentality doesn't make it true.
> Dogs are hard wired in their communication, and many studies these camps rely on in their smear campaign are often not complete, or all together false.
> It's important to research the trainer and their methods, but to also research behavior in canines. Using a treat based training ONLY "positive reinforcement", will often result in inappropriate behavior, because the treats are what the dog is focusing on, not the handler.
> I wish both sides of these camps of training would get over themselves, and realize that the generalization of ones methods is not only incorrect, but detrimental to the bonding of your pet.
> Kind Regards,
> Mike Ward
> Pack Mentality training


to add to this.., I don't hit, yell, or over correct.
The common comment I get from clients is.., "I wish my dog would greet me the way they greet you! "
I believe that speaks volumes.


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover

It's been 14 years since I had a new dog in the house and the first time I've had one that is almost grown (17 months) that needs direction. After her nipping/snapping at my elderly dog, I'm glad to read this thread and day two - serious groundwork. I've corrected the snapping immediately yesterday and put her in the crate. I've decided now to leave her there a few days and take her out only for walks and feeding. One mistake I already see I made was allowing her to happily bolt down the steps of my porch ahead of me. That stops next walk. Thanks for some great, helpful posts!


----------



## k9pack

because the treats are what the dog is focusing on, not the handler. Very true statement. Dominance is a word which is thrown around and used by many to fuel an agenda rather than stepping back and connecting it with how it connects with the many behavior issues. As a dog gains "influence" via taking the lead role the frequency and intensity of behavior issues increase. As "meaningful influence" takes hold via role change they diminish. Many who align with behavioral science are merely exploiting and misrepresenting both dominance and conditioning.


----------



## Eagle

I have a mixed breed german shepherd dog, I got him from a shelter when he was 1.5months old,now he is 9months old. He has a big temperament and i can describe him as a 'dominant' dog. I also watched a few of Ceasar Millan's shows online so i decided to get one of his books about establishing leadership. I've read half of the book and all is writing about is some stories and how great and successful is Ceasar Millan with dogs. He does not get to the end point-every day examples/situations and how to correct them..a bit waste of money.

That's the first male 'dominant' dog i have and I don't have any experience at all with training..However reading this forum and also trying to understand the dog i 've noticed a few things.
1. I used a choking collar for walking etc. the dog will obey and walk near me only because he has no choice and also because of the pain caused.Also everytime i used to put the collar on the dog he was very nervous and doing all he could to avoid it. On the other hand,being patient and correcting the dog with treats when he was not pulling on the leash helped the situation much better. My dog will not walk just next to me yet,there are times he will be infront-in the side,,but he will not pull.

2. I noticed that positive-reward reinforcement do work. It doesn't have to be treats all the time..it can be just a different tone of voice-exciting and a touch in the hip/belly. It might not work from the first time,with patience however and over time it will work,on the other hand pinning the dog down-hitting him-yelling at him will make him more nevrous and more prone to attack. 

3. One punishment when he is not behaving that i found out that it really works is to have him in his crate for 20-30minutes,when he is doing something wrong i just say No and put him in his crate. When he is calm and quiet he goes out again. 

This is my approach, as I mention am not an expert but so far my dog learn the sit,stay,down,come,give hand commands and he is obeying this commands with out the use of any choking-prone collars etc. Also the bond between me and my dog is much stronger than if i was using any violence or choking etc. collars


----------



## codmaster

As long as it works keep doing what you are doing! Esp. if it is better thasn what Ceasar could do.


----------



## codmaster

Out of curiosity, what does he do that makes you describe him as a "dominant" dog?


----------



## Kontrollverlust

Thanks for posting these links! They've definitely been helping me re-evaluate the things I do when I'm near my little lady


----------



## sheep

Great thread!  Will read all those articles soon!

One thing I think that it's absurd is how some people would discard the existence of dominance just coz the theory used to define it was wrong (the wolves study). So if I try to study and form a theory to explain gravity, and I get it wrong, then gravity doesn't exist?

IMO, dominance exist. Maybe often misunderstood, but dogs do try to exert control and get demanding too. For example, there's a small dog of a family that gets aggressive every time one of the family members (the weaker one only) gets out of the room. He would not allow her to get out of the room, but would allow the other family member that is stronger and not afraid to do so.

Also, I think that until we get a more difficult dog, we might not understand how difficult it actually is. I've had a few dogs before, but my current dog is a difficult one. He's not aggressive, but he would challenge, demand and is opportunistic. I think that he's here to demand me to be a better leader, to know how to combine different methods and know how to be firm and calm, as I needed to think of different positive ways combined with proper corrections to deal with many things. How to properly motivate, how to teach him to redirect his needs and energy to what's appropriate, how to correct and show him that I mean business when needed (it's more psychological than physical)... And so on.


----------



## Lobobear44

If you are alpha the dog will listen to your commands and do whatever you tell them to. If the dog is the alpha he/she won't listen to your commands and do what he/she pleases. Doesn't mean the dog is the alpha doesn't mean he/she hates you just means the dog has control over you. Lets say you say come the dog doesn't your like, "Fine have it your way." Then the dog will think he/she did a good thing and thinks your praising. The moment you say come to the dog don't let the dog off the hook cause that's dominating over you.


----------



## KayleeGSD

Lobobear44 said:


> If you are alpha the dog will listen to your commands and do whatever you tell them to. If the dog is the alpha he/she won't listen to your commands and do what he/she pleases. Doesn't mean the dog is the alpha doesn't mean he/she hates you just means the dog has control over you. Lets say you say come the dog doesn't your like, "Fine have it your way." Then the dog will think he/she did a good thing and thinks your praising. The moment you say come to the dog don't let the dog off the hook cause that's dominating over you.


Right on!!! If you allow your dog to do what ever they want you just gave up your spot. By allowing them to do as they please with no rules you teach them that they actually do not have to listen. This is where so many bad things can start which will only get worse as time goes by. Some times what can happen which happened to me is other people allowing the dog to break rules and no enforcement of simple basic do's and don'ts. 

For example, greeting behavior is fine. Our problem was not greeting behavior it was the dog being pushy to get her way to take over your personal space to control you when sitting down. I NEVER allow my dog to invade my space by walking up to me and immediately mouthing me, pawing me, leaning on me, and nipping. Then attempting to jump up and climb. I would not let them get away with it when I told them OFF. The dog knows what the command means, but the dog got away with it with everyone else so now it is time to test the rules with me. I would never ever say good girl for doing this behavior instead I remain silent. I already gave the OFF command. IF you did not have a lead on the dog she would insist upon doing this and then the behavior would escalate to I can do what ever I want. This is really bad and must be corrected. 

Just because the mouthing stopped the dog is still in my space uninvited leaning and pawing on me after I said OFF. They did not listen and this is where I need to follow through and enforce the rules. Certain family members thought this behavior was cute after being told several times why this is not allowed. It was not cute when the dog escalated to jumping, nipping, climbing and refusing to listen to you.... If you have a dog who is stubborn, pushy, manipulative, confident, and KNOWS how to push to win. You can not give in and must enforce the rules to maintain control I do not care how cute something looks. 

This does not mean hit, kick, slap, or beat the dog until they submit. This means you need to figure out a method to keep the balance. My method was simple and I kept a lead on the dog. I expect my dog to come up and sit in front of me to ask for permission to come into my peronal space. Everything is done on my terms. The dog is not in control of this house and you do not want any dog running your house, lol. I would make fair corrections to reinforce the message that the rules STILL apply and move the dog out of my space. The lead allowed me to teach and maintain control of my environment. If other people are causing a problem then it is time to keep those people away from the dog to ensure the rules are enforced and applied. I had to keep the dog away from specific family members because of them not listening to the rules. When they were around the dog I was there to monitor the interactions and maintain balance in the house.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

You do not need to be the "alpha" to have rules and structure for your dogs and expect them to listen and obey you. I don't consider myself alpha over my dogs, but I do have plenty of rules and I enforce them consistently. I don't let them do whatever they please, I start training from the time I bring home a new puppy, and I also institute NILIF. But our relationship is not about who is "dominant".


----------



## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You do not need to be the "alpha" to have rules and structure for your dogs and expect them to listen and obey you. I don't consider myself alpha over my dogs, but I do have plenty of rules and I enforce them consistently. I don't let them do whatever they please, I start training from the time I bring home a new puppy, and I also institute NILIF. But our relationship is not about who is "dominant".


 
*Do your dogs have to do what you tell them to do? I.E. do you "tell" them to do something or do you "ask" them and let them make up their own mind?*

I am assuming that you "tell" them and expect them to do whatever you tell them to do, when you tell them.

That is my definition of dominant (only my opinion, of course).

Like to hear from others.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Yes, but. When they NEED to do something I tell them to do it and I make them do it. But much more often, I expect them to know what the house rules are and to comply with them without even having to ask (or tell, if you like that word better - semantics ), so when we're talking about letting them make choices, there was no actual command given, certain behavior is implicit.

For example, I don't set the food bowls on the floor until they sit and look at me, and they have to stay there until released before they can eat. I don't throw the ball at the park until they sit and look at me, and they have to stay there until I release them or I don't throw it. Do they have the choice to NOT sit and give me eye contact at these times, and in similar situations? Well sure, I guess - if they want to skip dinner, or not get to chase balls, things they enjoy immensely. But because they value those things so highly, it's never an issue. 

Obedience is built into their day to day lives in numerous ways from a young age, so rather than always going around telling them what to do, the responsibility is on the dog to know that in order to get what they want, they do what I want. I _expect_ compliance and I get compliance.


----------



## codmaster

Difference between "Ask" and "Tell" is NOT semantic (implies that there is no difference). It is a very REAL distinction.

I might *ask* my dog if he wants to play "Tug" and if he doesn't then I will do something else and he can to.

When I "Tell" him to Come or to sit or Stay or Wait - he doesn't have a choice, he MUST do what I told him to do.

I expect absolute compliance no matter what else he might rather do at the time.

That is the difference between "Ask" and "Tell" - does that mean that I am "dominant" over him - anyone can make up their own mind on that! (I think personally that the answer is self-evident!).

Anyone else give their dog a choice as to whether they will obey an obedience type command? If so then obviously you have a equal partnership with your dog (s); I much prefer and work for a benevolent dictatorship.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Where exactly did I say that I give my dogs a choice as to whether or not they have to obey an obedience command? :thinking: If you're going to pretend people said things they didn't say then it's pointless to even have a conversation with you. Not playing that game!


----------



## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> *Where exactly did I say that I give my dogs a choice as to whether or not they have to obey an obedience command?* :thinking: If you're going to pretend people said things they didn't say then it's pointless to even have a conversation with you. Not playing that game!


Heh! Heh! You obviously have not understood anything that I have said about the difference between ASK and TELL!

Now, see the bold type above. We can agree that you did say that.

*Now a quote from a post of yours is below:*

*"Yes, but. When they NEED to do something I tell them to do it and I make them do it.* But much more often, I expect them to know what the house rules are and to comply with them without even having to ask (or tell, if you like that word better - semantics ), so when we're talking about letting them make choices, *there was no actual command given, certain behavior is implicit.
*
For example, I don't set the food bowls on the floor until they sit and look at me, and they have to stay there until released before they can eat. I don't throw the ball at the park until they sit and look at me, and *they have to stay there until I release them or I don't throw it.* Do they have the choice to NOT sit and give me eye contact at these times, and in similar situations? Well sure, I guess - if *they want to skip dinner, or not get to chase balls,* things they enjoy immensely. But because they value those things so highly, it's never an issue. 

Obedience is built into their day to day lives in numerous ways from a young age, so rather than always going around telling them what to do, the *responsibility is on the dog* to know that in order to get what they want, they do what I want. *I expect compliance and I get compliance. " If "responsibility is on the dog" wouldn't that imply that they get to choose whether they obey their owner or not?*

*I got to admit it - you got me here. *

*I can't tell if you TELL your dogs and they have to obey or do they get to decide whether they will obey or not. *

*Sounds like some of tthe time they get to make up their mind I.E. Chasing a ball and other times for some things they don't (whenever you "...Expect compliance")*

*Just for the heck of it, would you at least agree on those occasions when you do "Expect Compliance" and "tell" them what you want them to do something - that you are acting "Dominant"?*


----------



## KayleeGSD

codmaster said:


> I might *ask* my dog if he wants to play "Tug" and if he doesn't then I will do something else and he can to.
> 
> When I "Tell" him to Come or to sit or Stay or Wait - he doesn't have a choice, he MUST do what I told him to do.
> 
> I expect absolute compliance no matter what else he might rather do at the time.


I do the same thing. You are the dominant one unless you give it up and allow your dog to run things. I have a partnership with my dog and our relationship goes like this. 

I am Alpha and my dog is Beta. The relationship is built on trust, respect, fairness, and us working as a team. I have a proper balance between work and play. During play my dog is allowed to be a dog. I offer her things and if she is not interested fine no problem. I would not want to be a drill instructor 24-7 barking orders at my dog that would be unfair. There are specific things I need my dog to do when told no matter what because there is no choice they must comply. I am at the point where we have a routine down and all I have to do is look and she knows what to do and does it.


----------



## gsdraven

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But our *relationship* is not about who is "dominant".


As usual Debbie has some excellent insight. It's not a relationship if you are constantly concerned with who is Alpha (dominant) and who is Beta (submissive). That view point just puts you in a constant power struggle with your dog. That's not a real relationship. 

I am my own being with my own set of needs and expectations and so is my dog. My relationship with my dogs is built on mutual trust and respect. I respect their needs (food, water, exercise, affection) and they respect my rules and boundaries. We trust each other that those needs will be met and do not struggle over who is the packleader/ALPHA/Dominant one. We coexist in peace.

Real leaders don't have to constantly remind others that they are leader.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

gsdraven said:


> As usual Debbie has some excellent insight. It's not a relationship if you are constantly concerned with who is Alpha (dominant) and who is Beta (submissive). That view point just puts you in a constant power struggle with your dog. That's not a real relationship.
> 
> I am my own being with my own set of needs and expectations and so is my dog. My relationship with my dogs is built on mutual trust and respect. I respect their needs (food, water, exercise, affection) and they respect my rules and boundaries. We trust each other that those needs will be met and do not struggle over who is the packleader/ALPHA/Dominant one. We coexist in peace.
> 
> *Real leaders don't have to constantly remind others that they are leader.*


:thumbup:


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you're going to pretend people said things they didn't say then it's pointless to even have a conversation with you.


Ah, Cod - you just proved my point better than I possibly could have. :rofl: You chose to interpret a single word in the way YOU would mean it if YOU were to say it rather than in the context *I *explained it. To me, it IS semantics. There's no difference between me _asking_ my dogs to sit, or _telling_ my dogs to sit. If I use the command, they are expected to do it. But I don't go around barking orders at my dogs all day, they know the rules, so I don't HAVE to always tell them what to do. Is it better to have a kid who never fails to do their homework when you tell them to, or a kid who never has to be told to do their homework because it's understood, so they just do it, without being prompted?

And as I explained, the times I do not give a command because my dogs know what's expected of them are times when they WILL comply, (even though they have the choice not to since I didn't actually TELL them to do anything) because they know nothing happens if they don't do certain things first. Do you seriously think I could stand there with bully sticks in my hands and they would _choose_ NOT to sit and make eye contact?  (Hint: they slam their butts on the floor so fast it would make your head spin.)

Just for the heck of it, no, I do not agree that I am acting dominant when I tell my dogs to do something and I expect compliance. I am being a leader. 



> You are the dominant one unless you give it up and allow your dog to run things.


I completely disagree with this kind of thinking.


----------



## Deno

Angie, thank you so much for the links, I only read the first 2 and they are dead on the money and I learned some things.


----------



## Logan Tyler

Thanks for the tips!


----------



## Lil Dutchess

Hi Everyone,
I am new to the forum and just feeling my way through. My name is Lil Dutchess (April) and I am from The Bahamas. I recently bought two (1 year old) female german shepherds, and I need lots of help in obedience training. I was reading the conversation between Codmaster and Debbie. I need ALL the help I can get with my dogs.


----------



## Lil Dutchess

Hello gsdraven,

I am new to the forum and jus wanted to introduce myself. I am Lil Dutchess of The Bahamas. If you have ant advice in helping me with any obedience training with my 2 new (1year old) shepherds I will be most appreciative.


----------

