# My dog tried to kill another dog



## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

My GSD completely snapped today without any warning. I am so shocked right now I hardly know what to say. She was jogging off-leash with my fiance when she bolted towards a collie mix and without any vocalization or hesitation latched on to the other dog's neck and tried to kill it. This was utterly unprovoked and we have never seen her do anything like this. The other dog was being nervous-submissive but keeping her distance. 

So far, I contacted the vet and offered to pay for the other dog's surgery (she is stable but will need to be stitched up). The owners were terrified and ran away before we could talk to them. Can't say I blame them. We are also scheduling a consult with the behaviorist at the vet clinic to find out what in the blazes is going on. For the time being we are keeping her kenneled because we have a cat and I no longer trust her. 

We knew she was leash reactive (alarm barking at other dogs) but so far had always played well with other dogs off-leash and had never tried to do harm to anybody. The shelter said she was good with other dogs and people. We had her in a class to help with the reactivity and she was doing really well. She is a rescue and we've only had her 2.5 months. I'm wondering if she has just been sizing up the other dogs she has run into all this time, judging how easy it would be to attack one. I'm not saying that my dog is evil, but she may very well have anxiety issues and I know that one response to stress is to attempt to remove the stressor through aggression.

Has anyone had any experience with this type of behavior? I have never ever seen a dog behave this way. It's like she thought the other dog was just a rabbit or something. All of the dog fights I have ever seen started with an exchange, not one dog mercilessly going for the other's jugular right away. I am very worried that this behavior could expand to small children. Is this a possibility? We also have several free-ranging dogs in our neighborhood and I cannot prevent them from running up to her unannounced.

What do I do? Obviously she will be kept leashed at all times from now on, and I'm thinking a muzzle would be a good idea. I don't understand how she could be fine one minute and totally vicious the next. It scares me and I feel incapable of dealing with it. I feel really sick and sad right now. It feels like I'm being torn in two.


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Wow! That must have been a shock. I think the leash and muzzle are good ideas. Some people might tell you to put down the dog. Please talk with the vet & behaviorist before you make any decision like that.

Fiona has never taken off and attacked a dog or anything else, but she did go from sitting normally to barking like a nut for no reason.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Obviously no one can say what she was 'thinking'. 

She needs to be leashed at ALL times when out in public. 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but your fiance was taking a big risk, jogging with her offleash when she's had reactivity issues and you've only had her a couple months.

Reactivity can be controlled but most times never "cured"..as you just found out.

I'm glad the other dog wasn't severely hurt/killed.

Now as to your cat, no one can say ..She lives with the cat if she's been fine with the cat, I'd fathom a guess she won't snap on the cat, but I could be wrong..She does not live with the dog she nailed..big difference. 

This is most likely not a vet issue but a management issue/behavioral..


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

You've had her 2 1/2 months. You may just now be seeing her true personality.

Definitely condition her to a basket muzzle and leashed all times. If you haven't yet, have a vet check done with full blood work done. I would be surprised if the behaviorist doesn't request it, so that would get you ahead of the game. 

There is no doubt that after something like that happening, you are nervous yourself handling her. You will need to work on yourself as well. She will pick up on that and it could elevate her aggression. That was the toughest lesson I had to learn in handling my troublemaker.

As far as walking her in the neighborhood and the loose dogs that are there, it may be you and DH team up and walk her or load her up and take her somewhere quiet to walk her - still on leash.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Great posts so far. And Twyla said everything that I wanted to. You are just starting to get to know this dog. IME of years of fostering it takes at least 2-3 months before you start seeing who the dog really is and at least 6 months or more to really know the dog. 

Definitely have a basket muzzle on her anytime she is outside. Always on leash.

Very glad to hear you are consulting with a behaviorist. It is not likely that she plotted and planned this as you suggested, dogs just don't work that way. Something triggered her even if no one saw it. 

Some dogs are just dog aggressive and that's how it is. It rarely transfers to people or children and just because a dog is dog aggressive doesn't mean it will be aggressive to other animals. One of my most recent fosters would bite any dog that got within 5 feet of him but was wonderful with the cats. It's better to be safe than sorry until you know for sure though.

Take some time to really reflect on yourself. If you are going to work through these issues with your dog, you are going to need to be confident in yourself and your abilities.


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## readmeli (Feb 28, 2013)

I am sorry you have had to go through this! Everybody here is giving great advice. I do hope you work things out and never have to go through something like this again.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

all awesome advise . i live with a dog who loves to scrap with other dogs.. he is never off leash except in a fenced in yard and never off leash in public.. with a new dog management is key, and your dog should not have been off leash after having her for only 2 months and knowing she was leash reactive to other dogs.
she will probably be fine with your cat just separate them when you go to work. dog aggression does not transfer to humans. that is a myth.

dogs dont just snap- she has shown warning signs that you and your fiance have ignored..

the honeymoon period for some dogs is short, and for some longer.. your dogs honeymoon period is over and its time for NILIF and a good solid positive trainer to work on her leash reactivity and to teach her to ignore other dogs on leash in public

just be careful with the laws in your town/state when it comes to a dog attackng another dog. some towns/states will declare the dog dangerous and then you need a muzzle and liability insurance , some towns/states will want the dog euthanized.. it all depends on the state and town you live in.

is the other dog going to be ok? 

also, the owners of the dog might sue you , so be prepared. 

did the rescue tell you she had dog issues? if so, she should not have been off leash... heck no newly adopted dog should be offleash that soon


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The posts so far have addressed the need for management. 

I have a female aggressive female....she is fine in training and show situations where she has a job to do...if she was loose and another female was loose, I don't know if she would react without provocation...but I never let it happen....

She has "her own" cat...I got a new Bengal kitten in November who immediately decided that she was a mother substitute, to the point of attempting to nurse. The cat can sleep with her, take food out of her bowl....not sure she really loves the cat, but the only behavior she has exhibited is to get up and move if the cat annoys her. Most often I see them sleeping together fine. Dog aggression has nothing to do with cat aggression.

Lee


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I've seen this behavior once with a female rescued GSD at our dog park. She was an adolescent and with some dogs she played fine and others she randomly attacked, including my own.

When my dog was younger she definitely had a strong prey drive, but it was the chase that interested her, but not attacking. We decided early on to never take a risk with her and almost always have her on leash (but often a 26' Flexi) or off leash when she's supervised with her GSD play group.

As far as cats, our dog loves our own cats, but not stranger cats.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

The humane society knew nothing about any of this. As far as everyone else knew up to that point, she was a sweet dog. I agree with the comments saying it was too early to know her personality. 

I should mention the area she was in was a dog park aimed at jogging/walking, not just a random public place. We had taken her there before and other owners encouraged us to let her off-leash to socialize. It was my fault for giving her the benefit of the doubt instead of being cautious. 

I am worried about the cat because she has growled and air-snapped at the cat before. Usually when lying down and the cat gets in her personal space. We are probably going to have to rehome her because one of the conditions of getting a dog was that it would not pose a danger to the cat (who has been friends with dogs in the past). I know you can keep them separated, but it only takes 15 seconds for an accident to happen and I don't want to live in fear of our pets getting mauled.

I am glad the general consensus is that this behavior won't translate to humans. That gives me hope.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Dog aggression has nothing to do with people aggression or cat aggression or to any other animals. It is its own thing. 
If your dog is not human aggressive, this incident is not going to make her so.

I have had many dog aggressive GSDs in the past and none of them was human aggressive (unless when appropriate). My most naturally human aggressive GSD was the most dog friendly.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I have a cat so I would be concerned if my new dog did those behaviours toward it. You have a tough decision to make in regards to rehoming but I think it's completely understandable if you do.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I have had dogs give occassional bites in scuffles, but never an attack like that. In my house that dog would be gone.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mebully21 said:


> dogs dont just snap- she has shown warning signs that you and your fiance have ignored.


I think "ignored" is a bit harsh, dogs give out signals that are often very subtle and easily missed, especially if you're not exactly sure what you're looking for. Even though I know my own dogs very well, I'm sure they're screaming things at me all the time that I'm just too dim to figure out, lol. 



Kaimeju said:


> I am worried about the cat because she has growled and air-snapped at the cat before.


The growling would concern me more than the air snaps. My dogs and cats have been living peacefully together for years (although I do not leave them alone together when we're not around), and Keefer still likes to air snap at the cats. Watching the demeanor of my cats, it's very clear that they are not the slightest bit traumatized or intimidated when he does that, and will often lean over and try to lick his face or rub against his head a minute later. 

It can take some training if she's not used to cats, but I think it can be done if you're diligent, and having a dog savvy cat helps a lot. Even after a year Cassidy was still very excited by the cats, but after a rough first few months (she was just over a year old and very rambunctious when I brought home Elvis as a kitten - he was about the size of her head, and then I got Emmy 9 months later), they got along very well. She'd still chase them if they ran, but Elvis would just sit there and look at her, and a few times he even put his paws up on her back and she just didn't know what to do about that - you can't chase a cat that won't run! 

Elvis had his own room for the first 4 months, and they had supervised visits every day. I did tons of rewarding for good behavior, and making the presence of the kitty mean good things happening for the dog. Later, once Elvis was out and they were able to interact in the rest of the house, if she charged towards him I'd toss a handful of tiny treats at her. She'd stop immediately and sniff them out on the floor, and then Elvis would join in and the two of them would be side by side on the floor eating treats together. I also used him as a distraction, working on training eye contact with her while he tried to dive head first into the treat bag in my lap. :laugh:

Having a safe place for the cat to go is a good idea. I still have the cat room, with a baby gate over the doorway that the kitties can jump, with their food and water, litter box, and cat tree. The dogs could easily clear the gate, but they respect the barrier.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i correct myself with that post i apologize.. true some folks dont see warning signs. ( i meant that they knew she was leash aggressive with other dogs and that is a warning sign .. sorry bout that)

if she growled at the cat then return her to the rescue you got her from.

find a rescue that has foster homes where the dog lives with other dogs and cats.. that is your best bet to find the right dog for your home. keep the 2 separated now until you return the dog to the rescue you got her from


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You say the other dog was acting fearful/submissive, in no way does this *excuse* your dog but it could help explain her behavior.

I would keep her leashed from now on. I don't use muzzles in public but I know a lot of people will suggest it so that is an option (personally I feel if my dog is so aggressive it has to not only be leashed but actually muzzled, the dog is way over threshold and should just not be out in public and put in that state of mind). Plenty of dogs don't like other dogs and will go after them if given the chance but can be controlled on a leash. Being leash reactive does not mean the dog should be off leash either. Get her under control on a leash, keep her on a leash in public and she might be just fine.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Your dog growling at the cat is concerning. If its an option I would consider seeing if the humane society will take her back. Sorry you have to make these tough decisions, it must be heartbreaking.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think "ignored" is a bit harsh, dogs give out signals that *are often very subtle and easily missed*, especially if you're not exactly sure what you're looking for. Even though I know my own dogs very well, I'm sure they're screaming things at me all the time that I'm just too dim to figure out, lol.


I couldn't agree more with this statement. I am currently having a second party take hundreds of quick shutter speed pictures of my dog while I'm training. While it may be time consuming to go through each picture, they have told me SO much about my dog that I couldn't see from my angle in real time.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

One thing about the rescues is that we don't know all the experiences they've been through.

It is possible yours was attacked by the same type of dog before...possibly even the same dog (though the owners probably would have said something). Unfortunately, we will never know what set her off for sure.

You've been given lots of good management advice. I hope it helps and you won't have to rehome, but if it is too overwhelming to keep this particular dog, I completely understand and sympathize.

Hope you'll keep us posted.


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## nhstadt (Aug 20, 2012)

I had a similar problem. My Dog is extremely reactive to other dominant male dogs. there are always warning signs with him, sometimes very subtle (lowered head, raised tail, hackles up), its usually not a growl or bark until its too late. It's just something you need to recognize and deal with the problem before it arises. For me, that means no more dog park, or off leash around unfamiliar dogs. It took a while to figure out what his deal was, and the warning signs associated with the problem, but now its figured out, and while its not easily correctable, it is manageable. Also, my dog is a big teddy bear when it comes to kids, probably wouldn't worry too much about that, I agree dog and people aggression are totally different.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Liesje said:


> You say the other dog was acting fearful/submissive, in no way does this *excuse* your dog but it could help explain her behavior.
> 
> I would keep her leashed from now on. * I don't use muzzles in public but I know a lot of people will suggest it so that is an option (personally I feel if my dog is so aggressive it has to not only be leashed but actually muzzled, the dog is way over threshold and should just not be out in public and put in that state of mind).* Plenty of dogs don't like other dogs and will go after them if given the chance but can be controlled on a leash. Being leash reactive does not mean the dog should be off leash either. Get her under control on a leash, keep her on a leash in public and she might be just fine.


You've already gotten great advice. And I am so sorry you are going through this, very scary. Just wanted to add, if you rescue again in the future, be very careful about ever having the dog off-leash. Even the best trained dogs can have a day where something snaps/goes wrong. And it only takes that one day. Especially with rescuing, it takes awhile to truly know/trust the dog. I agree with Cassidy, at my shelter we always caution anyone adopting a dog, especially if it hasn't been in foster or observed for several months, that it will take a little while for them to get to know you and you to get to know them. And of course we always always always, emphasize the importance of being on-leash/in control at all times.

That being said, I agree with Lies above bolded statement.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the wonderful responses. Things have calmed down a bit and it has been really helpful to have a place to talk about this with people who are not directly involved.

The other dog is fine and has gone home. She had "deep puncture wounds to the back of the neck" but nothing seriously life-threatening. The owners are very appreciative that we took Gypsy to a vet behaviorist and are paying their bill.

I am still very, very confused about what to do at this point. Since this happened, I have been doing research obsessively trying to figure out exactly how serious this problem is and how we should respond. It seems that our scenario might be ambiguous, or maybe that is just the nature of aggression, because I have heard different suggestions from different professionals.

The vet and behaviorist said that this type of aggression is very serious and that she will never be a "normal dog" even after years of rehabilitation. They said she might do better in a home where someone can spend multiple hours a day working with her. [Side note: I do spend multiple hours a day working with her, but not specifically working on reactivity because I don't want to overwhelm her]. They also suggested that if we try to rehabilitate her ourselves, we may want to consider putting her on Prozac. They said they couldn't say how probable it was that she would snap on the cat, only that it was possible.

The trainer we have been going to for the past couple of weeks (who has actually seen her react to other dogs on-leash), said that from my description of the incident, she was probably not trying to kill the other dog. She thinks that, based on how long this lasted and the injuries incurred, my dog became overexcited and that her biting was due to a loss of impulse control, not intentionally trying to kill. She suggested keeping her away from other dogs, continuing to work on her reactivity, and investing in some citronella spray to keep loose dogs from approaching us on walks. She did not think the cat was in any danger so long as she has her own room to retreat to safely.

My fiance is strongly in favor of rehoming her, to the point where I am pretty sure there would be strong resentment if we kept her. Neither of us want to euthanize her. I don't know what I believe, because the VB basically said we were incapable of handling her without radically altering our lifestyles, whereas the trainer basically said to keep doing what we're doing but with some added management. I feel incapable of making an intelligent decision right now because emotions are running high. 

I think it possible that, since he was the one talking to the behaviorist and I was the one talking to the trainer, there may be some gaps in the information conveyed, so I will be talking to the VB on Friday and having him talk to the trainer this Saturday after class. There is a part of me that thinks he just does not understand this dog, and another part of me that thinks maybe no one does. On the one hand, her behavior is sort of understandable given that she was thrown into interacting with dogs at the park far too quickly due to our mistakes, and I could see how maybe she _could _have stayed a more or less normal dog if we had just kept her out of a bad environment she was not prepared for. Barking on leash I can handle, biting no. On the other hand, there is no way to turn back time and socialize her properly, so the possibility for violence is always there. 

One thing I do strongly believe is that we should not take her back to the humane society. Their adoption interview, in my opinion, allows just about anyone to walk out with just about any dog. I don't want to just pass this problem onto some other unsuspecting person. If we do rehome her, it will be through a rescue with appropriate screening procedures and complete honesty.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know how upset you must be, but the thing is: dogs do fight. Dogs do attack other dogs. It's not something we'd ever encourage - obviously - but it does happen.

A family member's dog attacked my puppy last summer. Same type of attack, out of the blue and charging bites to the neck. My puppy had several marks in his collar from this, and a little tear on his ear, but nothing major. I had a bloody finger from grabbing the other dog, but that could have come from a tag because it was a clean cut not a puncture wound. 

The dog who did this was attacked as a puppy at the dog park, and ever since then he's had a "I'll get you first" attitude towards other dogs and has started many fights, or I should say he's attacked many dogs, since he's only done this to younger dogs or submissive dogs - never to a dog who'd fight him back. Maybe, since you don't know you dog's history, you're dealing with the same type of aggression. It's not uncommon. It's also not something that I'd consider serious enough to rehome a dog over. I think your fiance is taking this a bit too seriously - sorry, that's JMO. I hope you can keep your dog.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Prozac isn't going to do a darn thing for this. Worst case scenario it's dog aggression. It can sometimes be treated, always managed. It would be different if this dog was out to kill humans. And honestly I'm not convinced she was out to kill the dog. She easily could have done more harm had she wanted to. I'm with you trainer on this one. I def would never have had a dog off leash after such a short time, so that's an easy fix. Keep her leashes at all times. A muzzle, if you feel safer. And look into LAT training. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...4-has-anyone-cured-dog-reactivity-lat-cu.html


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This thread actually scares me, since mine is reactive with other dogs, but oddly never reacted to my own:crazy: I will say that I would NEVER have mine off leash, not now, not in 10 years when he isn't reacting anymore. These dogs are fast and when they are focused on something, watch out. I hope that you can work with your dog and I hope the other dog is okay.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Kaimeju said:


> I am still very, very confused about what to do at this point. Since this happened, I have been doing research obsessively trying to figure out exactly how serious this problem is and how we should respond. It seems that our scenario might be ambiguous, or maybe that is just the nature of aggression, because I have heard different suggestions from different professionals.
> 
> The vet and behaviorist said that this type of aggression is very serious and that she will never be a "normal dog" even after years of rehabilitation. They said she might do better in a home where someone can spend multiple hours a day working with her. [Side note: I do spend multiple hours a day working with her, but not specifically working on reactivity because I don't want to overwhelm her]. They also suggested that if we try to rehabilitate her ourselves, we may want to consider putting her on Prozac. They said they couldn't say how probable it was that she would snap on the cat, only that it was possible.
> 
> ...


These links are a couple of techniques that have helped with Woolf; FA definitely DA, can be HA if not handled properly.

BAT Ahimsa Dog Blog

Look at That! A Counterintuitive Approach to Dealing with Reactive Dogs | Dog Training for Dog Lovers Blog

Nothing in Life is Free


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

dont worry about your cat let her out of her kennel if she liked the cat before she will always like her, dogs no matter what do not see a cat and dog the same ever keeping her kennel is just cruel, but if shes growling at your cat then yes better keep her away. 



NEver jog your dog off leash anymore it will suck i know. 

Ive had a german shepherd that has done this before, it was a one time thing. You just need to be careful who she interacts with.

I don't think your dog is dog aggressive at all. SHe didnt like the other bitch and decided to kill her. It really is that simple with dogs. It is what it is they are animals. YOu know how serious your dog can be you have to be careful she will do it again to do a dog she does not like if she has the chance. She will make it very OBV she doesnt like a dog so you keep her away from that dog for the sake of the other dogs life. Keep her with dogs she likes. Very simple.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

rehoming is probably a better idea with no dogs or cats 

Your cat was there first and had dog friends before and probably expects another probably not fair to have her snapped and growled at. It may change. I have never had a dog treat my cats like that personally and would not keep a dog that does that. Might be better to get a rescue you know is cat friendly at least.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

JackandMattie said:


> One thing about the rescues is that we don't know all the experiences they've been through.
> 
> It is possible yours was attacked by the same type of dog before...possibly even the same dog (though the owners probably would have said something). Unfortunately, we will never know what set her off for sure.
> 
> ...



This is another thing gsd's & bcs tend to never forget things. THe owners ran away upset if they knew there dog did something horrible they would not sit there and talk about. If there dog was innocent and sweet they would have stayed and demanded money. Strange they just ran away? No one does that. That time a lab jumped out of a truck and attacked us and my dog flipped it over cut its ear and made it scream the man left quick. When i got him to stop and made him talk to me next time i saw him (a few days later) he said his lab had been attacked by a gsd as a pup. If she sees one leashed sometimes she goes insane and trys to attack it. He said he left in a hurry because he knew she got taught a lesson and that it was her fault for attacking us. She came at us like a bullet. Never seen a lab so fierce and fast in my life. I was not that mad because my dog caught her and was able to subdue her quick without getting a mark on her and without ruining her mood. 

A lot of owners of guilty dogs do not want to stick around they leave as fast as they can.

If one dog does not like the other look for a lowered head and intense stare.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Personally I wouldn't add 10 years of this kinda stress to my life. The shelter most likely will put her down and this is not a dog for Craigslist so a rescue would be her only chance if you decide not to keep her.
You have to remember what your original plan was for a dog.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

pets4life said:


> This is another thing gsd's & bcs tend to never forget things. *THe owners ran away upset if they knew there dog did something horrible they would not sit there and talk about. If there dog was innocent and sweet they would have stayed and demanded money*. Strange they just ran away? No one does that. That time a lab jumped out of a truck and attacked us and my dog flipped it over cut its ear and made it scream the man left quick. When i got him to stop and made him talk to me next time i saw him (a few days later) he said his lab had been attacked by a gsd as a pup. If she sees one leashed sometimes she goes insane and trys to attack it. He said he left in a hurry because he knew she got taught a lesson and that it was her fault for attacking us. She came at us like a bullet. Never seen a lab so fierce and fast in my life. I was not that mad because my dog caught her and was able to subdue her quick without getting a mark on her and without ruining her mood.
> 
> A lot of owners of guilty dogs do not want to stick around they leave as fast as they can.
> 
> If one dog does not like the other look for a lowered head and intense stare.


I disagree. I was just saying it's a possibility, but I really doubt it was _that_ dog. They most likely left in a hurry because it was a frightening experience and they were trying to get their dog out of there! But I'm no mind reader, doh.

My point was that with the rescues we don't know what they've been through, and so it's especially tough to anticipate their triggers. Management becomes that much more important. Which point has already been made by others and the OP has acknowledged.

We learn through experience, and until you've adopted a DA or reactive dog, you don't know how distressing that can be...especially if you were told otherwise.

Again, I don't envy the OPs situation or decision, but I do have an awful lot of respect for their decision that "If we do rehome her, it will be through a rescue with appropriate screening procedures and complete honesty."


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Personally I wouldn't add 10 years of this kinda stress to my life. The shelter most likely will put her down and this is not a dog for Craigslist so a rescue would be her only chance if you decide not to keep her.
> You have to remember what your original plan was for a dog.


Believe me, I hear you loud and clear. It sucks because aside from her issues with other dogs, she is everything I ever wanted. I keep thinking if I had just never let her off leash, none of this would have ever happened and we could have just gone about our lives.

I did contact the german shepherd rescue in our state, and they wanted us to follow the strict protocols they give to their own adopters before deciding she is unmanageable. They felt we botched dog-cat introductions, did not find an appropriate trainer, and needed to walk her on a prong collar at all times. We are supposed to take her through an 8 week obedience course ASAP before trying to rehome her. I'm willing to try something new, although I am not sure two more months of stress is a good idea... 




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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No offense...but once the idea of rehoming actually sounds good...there's usually no turning back. If you can't handle the dog, then it would probably be best for you to rehome her. Personally...this doesn't sound like a bad enough situation to rehome...but its your life to live and it sounds like you've made your decision.

Without taking her to an obedience class, without any true bonding, you decided that she was to have freedoms she probably shouldn't have had. I raised my boy from 6 weeks old and he was only allowed off leash after 2 years of twice a week training...

Where are you located? Maybe someone can help.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

martemchik said:


> No offense...but once the idea of rehoming actually sounds good...there's usually no turning back. If you can't handle the dog, then it would probably be best for you to rehome her. Personally...this doesn't sound like a bad enough situation to rehome...but its your life to live and it sounds like you've made your decision.
> 
> Without taking her to an obedience class, without any true bonding, you decided that she was to have freedoms she probably shouldn't have had. I raised my boy from 6 weeks old and he was only allowed off leash after 2 years of twice a week training...
> 
> Where are you located? Maybe someone can help.


We are in Eastern WA. I don't want to rehome her, my fiancé does, and I promised him I wouldn't force him to live with an animal he is uncomfortable with. It seems like an obvious choice. I know that I am capable of handling her because I grew up with a very fear-aggressive dog. I know how much work it takes. The problem is I don't think he has time to attend training classes and I'm pretty sure we must be handling her differently because he is always saying things like "Gypsy was a jerk today. She was pulling on the leash again." And I don't know what to say because she never does that with me and I have shown him how to direct her. 

We have really bonded. I had to teach her everything from scratch and it makes me so proud when she "gets it," and looks up to me for direction. She no longer barks at the neighborhood dogs because of our BAT sessions. 

So, maybe while she is the kind of dog I would love to care for and work with, she is not right for our family and needs a much more consistent situation to be safe. 


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

jackandmattie I know it was not that dog lol the chances are so low but I was trying to say it could have been that type of situation or a dog like that. Or that dog may have done that to another dog.

You will learn to read her triggers if she can be good with the cat then I would keep her the dog thing isnt something I would really worry about unless she trys that with every dog. I don't think it will be stressful at all unless you want to add in another female but who would? OR if your dogs aggression towards your cat got worse. The snapping would scare me but other posters here deal with that and have no issues with it. Gsd's are wierd, it might not be a bad thing. She may not be a danger to the cat at all. SHe sees you as the leader and the cat as family.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

2 1/2 months is not a long time to really get to know a dog and their quirks. i know the situation that happened is scarey, but honestly nothing any one of mine probably wouldn't do off leash with a strange dog. these dogs have instincts that need to be kept in check. the situation could be alot worse belive me, if she's fine and trustworthy around people, then i do think you can work on the other if you truely want to keep her. training should not be stressful with the right trainer/class etc. i guess you have to think long and hard about putting the time in and how your BF feels and if he will try or not............i have had pretty high strung high drive dogs and cats and they never hurt the cats, but i would still keep an eye out for dignals just in case.............again you really haven't had her long enough to be able to read her, gain her trust etc..........


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## KYH (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm so sorry you are going through this 

You've gotten great advice and I just have one thing to add. I completely agree with your decision to NOT take the dog back to the humane society. First reason would be because of what you said. If they'll let anyone take the dog, then its not the place for the dog to be. Second reason is because they will immediately put the dog down. If you aren't comfortable putting the dog down yourself and feel it could be rehomed safely, then do not bring the dog back to the shelter. I worked at one for awhile and any animal that showed the slightest sign of aggression would have to be put to sleep (and this was at a no-kill shelter, which simply means they do not euthanize animals for space reasons). 

I would definitely take a lot of time and find someone who is willing to work with this dog and give it a great home without any other animals or triggers (if you do find out what they are). I'm sure you and your fiance have grown to love this dog even though it isn't a right fit for your family, so maybe you can come to a happy medium where you can continue to work with her until you find a new owner that can take over. 

I hope it all works out for you guys and the dog. I hope you find a new dog that is a great fit for your family and you find a new forever home for this dog.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Brief update: Since the GSD rescue was of the opinion that these issues are really common with shelter dogs, we are going to follow their protocol for new adopters for eight weeks and see what happens. If her aggressive tendencies have actually been made worse by our handling of her, which it sounds like they have, then I definitely want to start over and give her another chance.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Kaimeju said:


> Brief update: Since the GSD rescue was of the opinion that these issues are really common with shelter dogs, we are going to follow their protocol for new adopters for eight weeks and see what happens. If her aggressive tendencies have actually been made worse by our handling of her, which it sounds like they have, then I definitely want to start over and give her another chance.


Good news and good luck 

Keep us posted.


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

My goodness, so sorry that happened. I haven't read through all of the posts, but wanted to say I have a reactive dog and take care to make sure she doesn't get to another. I can walk her with a friend who also has a dog on leash, and mine will turn and snap as we walk.

My post is re the cat. She has never bothered my cats and wants to play with them. Her prey drive does cause her to become fixiated on one of them for some reason, but not the others. I just make her "leave it." Yours was rescued and you don't know the history, so your cat issue is different. I just wanted to say that in my case, just because she is dog reactive, does not mean she will hurt the animals she lives with. In fact, I had 2 dogs that have since died of old age since she came into our home. The first night, she tried to eat them. The next morning, she was their best friend and there were no issues whatsoever over the next 2 years. Good luck, and I have the behaviorist can help!


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## AliAlley (Jun 12, 2021)

Kaimeju said:


> My GSD completely snapped today without any warning. I am so shocked right now I hardly know what to say. She was jogging off-leash with my fiance when she bolted towards a collie mix and without any vocalization or hesitation latched on to the other dog's neck and tried to kill it. This was utterly unprovoked and we have never seen her do anything like this. The other dog was being nervous-submissive but keeping her distance.
> 
> So far, I contacted the vet and offered to pay for the other dog's surgery (she is stable but will need to be stitched up). The owners were terrified and ran away before we could talk to them. Can't say I blame them. We are also scheduling a consult with the behaviorist at the vet clinic to find out what in the blazes is going on. For the time being we are keeping her kenneled because we have a cat and I no longer trust her.
> 
> ...


I know dog packs (even pets) get into scuffles every now and then but have been easily broken apart. But my girl has snapped and it’s terrifying


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

When I first brought my Golden Saint Bernie home after rescue, I made the mistake of putting them together immediately. Hiro had a 150lb dog almost permanently attached to his neck for about 5 minutes before a water hose broke it up. That was dumb. So I got smarter and penned them both side by side in my homemade kennels. For two weeks I only let them interact together under close supervision, and only if Bernie seemed up to it (Hiro, on the other hand, was wary for weeks). 

But now, months later, they are best buds and I have no worries there. It seems that's how Bernie initially greets other strange dogs, with a stranglehold instead of a wagging tail like my GSD does. Even for street dogs (there are packs roaming here), he initially goes in for the kill, but once he knows a dog from the hood, he will go in for a romping playtime. Outside of that, Bernie shows no other form of behavioral problems except for talking back sometimes when made to do something he rather not do... he uses his dog words, and does not let his frustration spill over (at least with me). 

I know this is probably no help whatsoever for the OP, but perhaps the tale will provide a bit of comfort. Raising dogs ain't easy...


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

This is an 8 year old thread, the OP probably won't be responding. Fyi.


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> This is an 8 year old thread, the OP probably won't be responding. Fyi.


ha! well best of luck to the OP and his now geriatric biter...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What do you do? That's easy, you don't let your fiance jog with her off-lead. You only had her a couple of months. And already you think that you know her well enough, have trained her well enough for her to be in public off lead? Do you know how crazy that sounds? 

Ok, some "rescue" dogs are there for no reason other than they do not match the new furniture. That's the minority. Many rescues have been given up because they have developed bad habits, or because they are unsound (genetic). Most rescues that are over, say 6 months, have a honey-moon period with the new owners where the dog seems wonderful. And then as the dog relaxes in its new environment, the bad behaviors start rearing their ugly heads. Now a lot of these behaviors (unless it is the genetic issue, which I believe is also a minority of cases), are caused by poor leadership, lack of or bad training, and improper socialization. This can be fixed by good leadership, proper training, and careful socialization. My list is, in order, Management, Leadership, Training, Exercise, and Socialization. Proper healthcare and nutrition is a given. 

First is management because you have to keep your dog safe by keeping people and dogs safe around your dog. It also does not require any amount of the other items on the list. Management includes crating, kenneling, leashing and in some cases, muzzling a dog. It also includes keeping the garbage and other things put away, out of the reach of the dog. You can train a dog to stay out of the garbage, or you can keep the garbage in a pantry or outside in a garbage can, under the sink, where the dog can't get to it. No training, no leadership, no exercise, no socialization is needed to put the garbage where the dog can't get it. I know that's not your problem, but management is. And putting a muzzle and a leash on your dog until you trust the dog by having the dog properly trained and the leadership established, etc, is a must if you are keeping the dog. 

Leadership is next. Most of our problems with our dogs are caused by the dog not trusting that we have things under control. When we are consistent, confident, calm, our dogs thrive. When we inconsistent, or uncertain/hesitant, or fly off the handle and react to everything, our dogs state becomes unpredictable, because its environment is unpredictable. I am not saying that this the case for you, but the dog hasn't been with you that long. If the dog was raised in chaos, raised with an owner who is unpredictable it begins to lack faith in its human to protect it. So it is far more likely to attack at the slightest provocation. I am not sure how easy it is to fix this, but the beginning of bringing a dog out of this would be to have a very trustworthy human, who will manage the dog properly, give structure, patience, consistent training, confidenct, and a non-reactive leadership to the dog. 

Training. Training is where we create the bond with a dog. Yes, there is bonding in leadership, but the specific act of training is where we and the dog are learning to communicate with each other by assigning tasks, explaining tasks, performing tasks, rewarding performance, requiring task completion. By interacting in this way with the dog, you are communicating what you want, the dog is communicating that he understands by performing what we want, and this builds trust both ways, between you and dog. That's why we go to trainers, and the trainers are there to train us to train our dogs. If they train our dogs, that bond is not as pronounced. It can improve if you know what the commands and body language is and follow the basic principles of good training: being consistent, not giving a command that the dog is unlikely to follow, not giving commands you cannot enforce, always follow through, do not repeat commands, etc. I do not understand why people are in such a hurry to complete training. Training is individual to the dog itself, and it can be on-going through a dog's life, or it can be put on the back burner for a while once they have mastered the basics, but there is no hurry. What is more important is a solid foundation. Many trainers, who get paid to train dogs, would not walk a dog off-lead for a year or more in an unsecure area. This can be done quicker, for someone who has specific goals, the time and energy to do it, and the dog was purchased with that goal in mind at the time of the purchase. 

Exercise -- self-explanatory. Our dogs, especially young dogs, have energy requirements. They need their minds and bodies exercised, and they cannot get that by lying in the yard. Dogs that are crated for many hours each day, need to be given an opportunity to move and release that energy. Dogs that are not crated, that are kenneled or have the run of the house also may need an outlet for their energy requirements. It may be different than for a dog that is crated. But an unexercised dog can exhibit nuisance behaviors. I don't know that this is your issue. 

Socialization is last on my list because, especially with your older puppies and adult dogs, until they trust you and have confidence in your leadership, and are trained to the extent that you have a good idea what that dog is going to do in most situations, socialization can be negative rather than positive. Ok, baby-puppies, the socialization period is 3-16 weeks. This is, in a perfect world, a nice thing, where good experiences are experienced by the litter together between 3-8 or 10 weeks old, and then up to four months with its new owners. Why this works is that the puppy doesn't understand stranger-danger, doesn't have that natural suspicion of strangers until they are around 4 months, and their puppy license usually lasts 4-5 months which has to do with dogs. So the owners do not have to be super-leaders before exposing their dog to a variety of people, places, and things. But for the rescue-dog, the dog with questionable background or nerves, the older pup/dog has to have an amount of confidence in its owner to succeed in unfamiliar circumstances. So taking your new rescued dog out to pet store and letting it be hugged and petted by all kinds of people can be an issue. The dog may realize that you are not going to protect it, can't protect it, and that barking, snapping, and even biting rewards the dog by removing what is making it feel threatened. Exactly what you do not want to happen. 

It is possible that your dog is naturally dog-aggressive, and it may have been punished for barking, growling, snarling, snapping, so it goes into attack mode without the preliminaries. We don't know, but I would be surprised if this was the first dog your dog attacked. It is always possible that people dropped you dog off without disclosing the problems with the dog in hopes that someone would "rescue" it.


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