# neutering



## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

I am hearing all sorts of different opinions on this

The Vet says 5-6 months
I think that is early

What I have heard is that if you do it too early that you stop the harmones that tell the dog when to stop growing So I thought I would ask you guys what is your opinion.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

That is way to young he needs to develop 2 years minimum


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## Rika_Tula (Nov 9, 2006)

I think that most Vets will advocate early spay & neuter. Our breeder contract with Myrika was not to spay her prior to 18 mo, or it would nullify the health guarantee.

We spayed our Goldens at 6 mo and I wish we had waited - although they are the picture of perfect health for the Golden Retriever breed...size, shape, weight, hip/joint health, skin/coat, eyes, etc.

I think you will find many varying opinions on this.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

My trainer neutered his GSD as a pup (6-8) he grew Tall and skinny
which I hear is common if they don't get fully developed


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## Rika_Tula (Nov 9, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcMy trainer neutered his GSD as a pup (6-8) he grew Tall and skinny
> which I hear is common if they don't get fully developed


I've seen some Goldens that are taller than typical, with really long legs and always wonder if that is what happened...early altering.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why neuter? I mean what are your reasons for neutering?


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

You know the reasons. LOL, with some many available for adoption we do not need another 10,000 litters or more.

The Milwaukee Humane Society just took 1,200 dogs (not a mis-print) from a so called back yard breeder. Placing the dogs is going well, but they are finding many of the females are ready to give birth. So spaying/neutering in this case is a most.

However, weird as always I will never allow a GSD that a get from a reliable breeder to be neutered. 

As for my rescue dogs, yes.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

My GSD got spayed when she was 1 year old. I personally have no problem with speutering at the age of 6 months (but below 6 months is too early for me). In fact, if I got a puppy I'd have it speutered when it was 6 months.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerWhy neuter? I mean what are your reasons for neutering?


1. To avoid unhealthy and/or dogs that don't fit the breed standard from contributing unhealthiness to their breed.
2. To try to control pet overpopulation. As others have said, there are way too many dogs in shelters right now. They need homes.
3. In females, you get to skip the messy heats.
4. Neutered males are generally easier to handle than unneutered ones.
5. According the HSUS, speutering your dogs give them more health benefits.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Please note that Cookie is a new member and is in an area/state where there are HUGE amounts of PB GSDs in the shelters and not a matching number of responsible pet owners.









IF I were able to control a male dog in terms of exposure to females, never left him out unattended and felt I had the relationship with him where he could listen to me 100 percent, I might hold off until they got older-with the hormone thing-but not OLDER. And would still do it no matter what. As far as # of months, I don't know. 

But if I couldn't do all that, and there was any chance of a hookup (considering I couldn't make the female's owner spay terminate) I would snip b/t 7-9months.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CookieGSD:

I am not attacking, just want to levy my opinion on each of these. I am not a fan of early spay/neuter, or spay neuter at all. But I am confident in my ability to keep males and females separated and not ever have an unplanned litter. Breeders, and those who want to breed some day had better have that kind of confidence in their set up or they may as well hang it up. 

"1. To avoid unhealthy and/or dogs that don't fit the breed standard from contributing unhealthiness to their breed."

While I agree that if you see a congenital defect in a puppy you will not want to breed it, many of our dogs will not show whether they are suitable to be bred until they are adults. At that point, they have reached their full potential with hormones intact, and you feel the dog is unsuitable for breeding, I have no issue wih spay/neuter. I won't just for the heck of it because I do not want to subject my dogs to an unnecessary surgery and anesthetic, so I choose to spay / neuter only if there is a medical reason or my dog is under for another reason. 

"2. To try to control pet overpopulation. As others have said, there are way too many dogs in shelters right now. They need homes."

Personally, I prefer to be responsible with my dogs by not allowing them to get connected, it is really not difficult to do. There are many people who have played with the idea of having puppies, and are less vigilent about security and allow their animals to get pregnant. Responsible people will not help to control pet overpopulation by spaying or neutering, because they are responsible and will not allow their animals to breed unless that is in their plans for the animals and themselves. 

3. In females, you get to skip the messy heats. 

True, but I do not find the heat cycle as disgusting or painful. But I am a breeder and I see it a bit different, and have a situation where a bit of blood is not a problem. When my bitches are in heat, they are kept in their kennels, in their crates, or wearing a diaper. More of a bother is the inablitity to take them to shows or classes while they are in heat. But I find it is a small price we pay to own a bitch. When I buy a dog or keep a dog that I have bred, I take the whole dog: bark, tail, hair, heats, testicles etc. 

4. Neutered males are generally easier to handle than unneutered ones.

No way, I cannot let this one go by. Neutered males are no easier to handle than intact males. This is a huge myth probably dreamed up by HSUS propeganda generators. Some will tell you that keeping intact males is no problem, but once they start breeding females they can change. Maybe. I have not seen this to be the case with my unaltered males. I have the good luck of being in classes with many a neutered dog, and frankly, my boys are a whole lot easier to handle. 

5. According the HSUS, speutering your dogs give them more health benefits.

Well, HSUS WOULD say this. I think the truth of the matter is the other way around. A dog without testicals cannot get testicular cancer, true. However, testicular cancer is extremely rare, and when it does show up it is easily remedied. Early spay/neuter has been linked to bone cancer, which has no real fix, and is an awful way for a pupper to go. Early speuter also can affect natural growth. I believe that if the long bones continue to grow beyond what they would have naturally, then it stands to figure that maybe the way the long bones fit into the hip sockets might be affected as well. The hormones do make a difference, otherwise, our people doctors wouldn't be so reluctant to speuter us.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm torn between what to think about the HSUS and have been for a while now.
One side (and some of my best friends are on that side) says that people's dog fight because they aren't neutered. I feel like rolling my eyes when they say that, but I have always believed that intact males aren't as easy to handle. Perhaps I'm wrong. Others go so far as to say that intact males aren't trainable. That's obviously not true, as I have seen several trained intact males.
I'm not sure what to think of early speutering anymore. I still advocate speutering, because no matter how responsible I would try to be an accident could still happen. I believe that the only people who shouldn't have to spay/neuter are those who are responsible breeders and show dogs owners. And I of course think that people should be able to make a choice, so I hate mandetory speutering.

I want to be a responsible breeder one day; I'm currently studying for it and looking for a mentor. But there are few if any good breeders in my area right now, so I haven't been able to find one.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Cookie, all fair reasons however it really gets me how people automatically think an animal will be bred just because it is intact. I realize this happens a lot with laypeople but for those in the know, there are healthful reasons to keep a dog intact and good people who will do so but who'll also cringe at the thought of breeding their intact Bowser.









Yes, being intact can lead to some messy fights. Two intact, mature males that feel they are equals will fight hard. Two intact bitches that feel the other is competition.. well to the victor go the spoils and to the grave goes the loser. For many average dog owners this is an issue and a good reason to examine spay/neuter. Sometimes it helps but sometimes it can make things worse. Trainability can be an issue too but because of distractions: an intact male that catches wind of an in-heat female will likely slam on the mental brakes and concentrate solely on the bitch so this is something to train through and yes, it can be done. 



> Quote:I still advocate speutering, because no matter how responsible I would try to be an accident could still happen.


Yes, accidents do happen but there are plenty of precautions you can take. If your bitch is in heat and you have intact males that'll drive you up the wall, board her in a TRUSTED facility or keep her segregated at all times- if the males are out, she is in a crate in a room with closed (even locked) doors. Vice versa for the males if the bitch is out. Ensure your leashes and collars are strong so they don't fail and always- ALWAYS- keep your bitch on leash when she is on heat. Yes, even in your fenced yard. Know where all dogs in your household are at all times and if you live with others make sure they know the rules as well. 

Cookie, have you tried looking for breeders in your area who are involved with other breeds? It doesn't matter if it's a GSD or a lab or an airedale or a rottie, breeding and whelping are pretty similar across the board. Your best bet would be to shoot for a like size/weight range and for a breed with similar concerns (a breed that always needs to deliver by C-section may not be a good choice). We have a member on here who is a "whelp helper" for a Weimaraner breeder.







Obviously a GSD breeder can help you more with the pedigree end and breed-specific questions, so have you also checked for breeders of all types of GSD? There are American show, German show, and European (German, Czech, DDR) working lines, so make sure you look for all.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMCookie, have you tried looking for breeders in your area who are involved with other breeds? It doesn't matter if it's a GSD or a lab or an airedale or a rottie, breeding and whelping are pretty similar across the board. Your best bet would be to shoot for a like size/weight range and for a breed with similar concerns (a breed that always needs to deliver by C-section may not be a good choice). We have a member on here who is a "whelp helper" for a Weimaraner breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a friend who used to be a GSD breeder and she is nice, but I'm not sure if she was reputable or not. She's much older than me, so I'm nervous about asking her questions about her past breeding practices and experiences.
Good breeders of any breed are hard to find in my area. We'll be moving to Arkansas soon if my uncle can sell his house, maybe I'll have better luck finding a good breeder who could mentor me there...
I'd definitely want to be a breeder of European line GSDs though, I personally hate the severe rear angulation in the American show lines.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

You know, you are less than an hour's drive from Jacksonville.. have you tried to check there? For the Dog Fancy, an hour or less is considered a VERY reasonable drive.







It does make it more tough if the bitch starts whelping at 3am right before you go to work but it may be doable.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

That might work.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM Two intact bitches that feel the other is competition.. well to the victor go the spoils and to the grave goes the loser.


Spaying doesn't necessarily make a nickles worth of difference with a lot of females. The WORST fights I have even seen were between SPAYED females. And they have been females that were spayed earlier (6 to 9 months,) in some cases and in other cases between females that were spayed as adults.

They don't say "b!tches fight for BREATHING rights" for NO reason.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Count Bruno, there are a lot of pros and cons for either side, both have some compelling arguments. In the end it will be up to you to do what you think is best.

I am getting a male next month and I'm not planning on neutering him at all. I'm not planning to breed him either. I'm not saying I WONT neuter him, but I have no plans to.

My female GSD was spayed at age 3 and my rescue mutt...I'm not sure but I think he was neutered VERY young, as he is very tall and lanky. His back legs are so long, his hips/butt is higher than his wither! I adopted him at age 1.5, so he was neutered long before, when he was born in the rescue (then his adopters had to return him and we adopted him after he was in foster care).


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## Grims (Jul 3, 2008)

My breeder told me they don't recommend neutering at all, and if I do to wait until 2 years or their health warranty is voided. This was the most powerful motivator for me...as you would think it would be in their best interest to have their dogs neutered as to avoid people using their line to start their own breeding programs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For what its worth, Arwen and Jenna have been at odds since Jenna was a little under a year old. Spaying Arwen made no difference whatsoever. 

Speutering for behavior reasons sounds well and good, but it is not a magic button to stop issues. It has to be backed up with leadership and training. And guess what, with leadership and training you can keep them intact without behavior problems. 

Yes, having two intact males could be a problem. But that does not mean if you have an intact male and your friend has one there will be problems. It does not mean that it will be a problem in training classes. Because I have found that sparing about intact bitches is a pack behavior and really does not follow the dog outside of the pack. Rush and Dubya will fight, but Rushie has never shown any sign of any aggression whatsoever to a non pack member and we are in close quarters training and showing with other intact animals.


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

Just curious...
Does any one know if a guide dog or personal service dog is spayed/neutered before they go to their human partner? If so why?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

This is IAADP's official postion:



> Quote:
> The suggestion in the bill (AB 1634 that requires neutering or spaying at four months of age) that active working assistance dogs be used for breeding purposes shows a lack of understanding of the assistance dog movement. *Working assistance dogs are spayed and neutered to guarantee that sex drives will not interfere with their work ethic.*


You can see the whole letter here: http://www.iaadp.org/calif2007.html


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3dogcrewJust curious...
> Does any one know if a guide dog or personal service dog is spayed/neutered before they go to their human partner? If so why?


Can you imagine how dangerous it would be for a blind person to be walking the streets with an in heat guide dog? I sure can.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some of the Seeing eye organizations have their own breeding program. I am a bit shocked that they make their decisions about what animals are breeding quality as early as four months. Last I heard they farm puppies out for socialization to families, usually with kids for a year or more. Some of these dogs are not speutered as they will be evaluated to be used in their breeding program. I could be wrong. 

Definitely, I would think that a bitch would be spayed before going with their blind partner.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Which organization makes the decision that early, Sue? Neither CCI nor Guide Dogs of America automatically make that decision that early. (I'm almost positive that Summit doesn't either. I can ask, if you'd like). That's why they came out against the law in California for early spay/neuter, because they need time to evaluate their stock properly for dogs that might be potentially good for breeding. 

The letter that I cited specifically says that. 

But that doesn't mean that these service animals should be left intact when they are working either. My life is literally in my dog's paws. He has to pay attention to me at all times. I don't need him distracted by a bitch in heat that happens to be walking by.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Fidelco makes no decisions on breeding their females before they are a year old. By that time, their work ethics and personalities are more developed and they can narrow down a better list of breeding prospects. I can't vouch for the males(I've never fostered one) but I know that the boys don't go in before they are 7 months old. If there is a boy that may catch their eye, he is left intact until he enters training, where is is either deamed good or neutered.
All of my girls have been spayed well after their first heat, and around 13-14 months of age.
As for neutering before they are placed, absolutley!!!!
Just because they are guide users, doesn't mean that they are knowledgable pet owners. 
These dogs aren't pets. They are a working tool, and although a great bond forms between the two, it isn't always immediate. Sometimes the handler has to learn to care for the dog.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

We neutered Ozzy at 6mos. He's a mix, we would never breed him, although I'm sure he'd be an evolutionary miracle, producing puppies born with helmuts on........
He doubled in size in the year and a half after his neuter, so I don't think the growth thing applies every time, or to every situation, it didn't alter his behaviour at all. 

We did it because we believe in it. Cathy, you will do it when you want to, based on your feelings and opinions you will form.


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

I can imagine how dangerous it would be for a blind person with a dog in heat....my error. I always write spay/ neuter.
I also understand that service dogs are not a pet and they have a very specific purpose, and yes there is a very special bond between dog and handler.
I'm just interested in this topic because it seems to be coming up more often, not only on this board but on others as well.I am interested in others opinion on it.I was mainly just curious if some of the reasons a service dog is neutered is the same reasons an average pet would be neutered.Please don't take this wrong, I'm not comparing a service dog to a pet.
For now, I support spay/neuter for the average pet owner. Who knows, maybe somewhere down the line IF we ever get another male, it could just be that I may not neuter because of what some one had spoke of on here !
Bear with me... one more question
For those of you with both males that are intact and ones that are neutered, do you notice a behavior difference between the 2 that you could say is because of being intact or neutered?More drive? easier to handle? Pays more attention to you? Marking?
Thanks for being patient with me !


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, so Babsy is running naked right now and Jenna is blowing her coat. Babsy blew her coat when her pups were weaned. Jenna's pups, had she been bred would have been in the process of being weaned. 

Do spayed females blow their coats twice a year? Because my intact bitches do. This always corresponds to the period when they would have been weaning a litter. These are hormones at work. They affect other aspects of an animal's life. 

Since I really haven't had any spayed bitches, until Arwen was spayed this summer, I am curious about this coat thing.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Grace was spayed sometime prior to 11months of age, which was when I got her. My Husky/GSD mix Kira was also spayed. Both blew their coats with stunning regularity twice a year. I always just assumed it was seasonal, though I never quite got why they'd lose their coats in the fall - just assumed it was making room for their new winter wear?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

All my dogs blow their coats. Even my dogs with short thin fur do --it's not as noticeable (it doesn't get up your nose the same way).










Marking, IMO, is a tendency and a habit that has little to do with hormones. I've had males that weren't altered that marked, and I've had two spayed females that marked: yup, lifted their legs and sprayed high on a vertical surface. 

I've never found any difference in a dog's personality before and after spay or neuter, 3dog. So if the dog is hard to handle before; he'll be hard to handle after. 

I think that most people think that spay/neuter affects a dog because we get them fixed when they're adolescents. This is such a tumultuous time for dogs. One week, the dog is obedient, loyal and does exactly what he's supposed to. The next week, he's running away from you at the park, has forgotten every command, and just has the attitude that you had as a teenager (when your mom told you "someday, you're going to have a kid just like you!")









So, we look for cause and effect and we say "oh, that surgery did it." But if you hang out in basic and intermediate training classes (where adolescents tend to be) long enough, you just see that being erratic is what "teenage" dogs do best. And if they start developing negative behaviors and we don't get those straightened out (how many owners stop after the basic obedience class? 80% or so?), then these problem behaviors can become entrenched. So then the owner says, well, he was a sweet dog, but then he got neutered and he became stubborn/aggressive/more protective/less protective/moody/ whatever. But the surgery had nothing to do with the change. The change came from a growing brain, which then wasn't guided properly. 

To get the dog you want, the ONE thing that makes the biggest difference is *training.* Start on day one and keep going, consistently, throughout the dog's life. Don't stop when he hits one year or two and you think "we made it. He's an adult," because bad habits can develop quickly. Socialize, take classes, do agility, buy DVDs, read and re-read books, and have training sessions every day, every where, so that your dog thinks it's a part of his life. He never knows anything except that he always sits before he eats; he always waits before he goes outside; and he always practices down stays during the evening news.

THAT dog will be a loyal, manageable dog that thinks you're fascinating. If he's neutered, he'll also be less distractable around female dogs and less likely to roam.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

Just from personal experience, I had Blue neutered when he was 2. He was used as a stud dog before I got him. It DEFINATELY had an impact on his personality. He's still dominate but not nearly as bad as he was while he still had the "boys". 

I have always had my dogs altered and will continue to. If you are not breeding/showing then IMO there is no reason why a dog shoudln't be altered.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some dogs are more dominant than others whether they are neutered or not. Most dogs start to settle down between two and three years and get progressively better. If you are certain the lack of testicals did it for your boy, fine. My boy has been used as a stud dog, has is testicals, and is no problem whatsoever. All of him will be three next month.


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

To each there own Sue. I'm speaking from personal experience with Blue. It did help in his case.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

We neutered our Rottie (now deceased) at age 5 and getting it done dramatically decreased his desire to pick fights with other male dogs. I have plenty of new foster dogs who come here intact and get along fine with other males prior to neutering, so I'm not saying that testicles make males male-aggressive, but when a dog _is_ male aggressive, my experience with several dogs is that neutering can help a lot.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Other dogs may react negatively to an intact dog. Renji is neutered but he loves trying to pick a fight with my trainer's intact male BC. At one point we were able to get them to sit next to each other calmly which she said was a huge accomplishment. Neutering is one thing you can do to help your dog not be perceived as a threat by other dogs which can indirectly make training easier. 

Like humans, some male dogs think with their main brain, others with their "lower brain."


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In this month's dog world that came today so it is probably the January issue, they said that for prostrate cancer, the numbers suggest a slightly higher incidence in neutered dogs than intact dogs. I thought that was interesting.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Interesting! Did they cite a specific study?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The paper found at the following link has a through assessment of the health benefits & risks associated spaying & neutering. One of these is the increased risk of prostate cancer. Prostate cancer appears to behave differently in canines than in humans, & is a small risk whether dogs are intact or castrated.

*See Laura J Sanborn paper... *

This isn't a research paper per se, but she's credible & cites all original research used to write the paper.

A major problem with spay/neuter studies, discussions etc, is that so many professionals bring an agenda to it. Deliberately, or unintentionally, they all too often see the results through their bias.

My tribe has always been spayed/neutered which I've been re-thinking the past 18 months. I hope to keep Djibouti intact or get him a vasectomy. I won't breed him. I also won't keep both intact bitches & males for any length of time as I don't want to spend 10+ yrs warding off hormonal urges under my very roof!


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## rocky30 (Feb 25, 2008)

My dog was neutered today and when he got home he went to this one spot and hasnt moved from there for about two hours is this ok.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

This is totally normal. He is sleeping off the anesthesia. Just make sure to get him up from time to time to potty him and make sure he's still ok.


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