# Prong chain hair loss



## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

I have recently discovered a bald spot on the neck of my boy. Haven't asked this here right away because I was totally emerged in another issue, but that one is resolved.  
I suspect the prong chain is the culprit, as the hair loss is almost exactly on the spot where the chain lies (not the pins). I have followed Leerburg's instructions by positioning the live/dead ring on the side. 

I use a HS medium size 3.2mm. I can't fit the prong very snugly, it seems my boy has an in between size. With the current fit the prong moves around a little bit. It can come down and also turn around (an inch maybe?). If I take another shackle off it seems to become very tight. The pins press into his skin and I can hardly fit one finger under it (with current fit I can fit three fingers under it easily). It does however not move around anymore and stays very fixed. 

I will stop using anything with a chain for now. I use the prong with a martingale as a backup. 

Here is the damage (it looks very bad when I pull the hairs to the side, but under normal circumstances it is hardly noticeable, I found it by accident):


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

How often is the prong on the dog? Just when training? Walks? All day, every day?

I've never seen that kind of hair loss from a prong, but if you're leaving it on all the time, I could see it...


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

BrodyRoo said:


> How often is the prong on the dog? Just when training? Walks? All day, every day?
> 
> I've never seen that kind of hair loss from a prong, but if you're leaving it on all the time, I could see it...


Just when training/walking, nowhere else. I also leave it on when he's running/playing off leash.


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## BrodyRoo (Aug 10, 2016)

Hmmm...have you tried getting a better fit with a different sized prong? Just thinking maybe it's the extra movement from being too loose that's causing the issue...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Henricus said:


> Just when training/walking, nowhere else. I also leave it on when he's running/playing off leash.


Running and playing off leash in your yard or somewhere like in a park where he might encounter another dog?


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@BrodyRoo
I would have to buy a smaller one online to test it, as there no store in my neighborhood (not even my province as far as I know) that sells one.

@MineAreWorkingline
Never with other dogs, as I don't let him loose when they're around. He is quite reactive and I will not be able to call him back until he feels like it if he is playing with another dog. So he only goes off leash where I can have as much control as possible.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Can't edit my previous post anymore. I just took these (very bad, pup wouldn't stay still) photos. 

With 5 links:








When it slides it down:









With 4 links (I wouldn't say it hurts if I put one finger under a pin, but definitely feel uncomfortable). It doesn't move at all, even after a short walk:









If the loose fit is the culprit of the hair loss, then I probably need a smaller prong. I don't think a prong with 8 links is meant to be downsized in half.. The pins are covering half of his neck.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

It could be a case when it is better to stop using it completely, if you are dealing with contact dermatitis caused by prong collar:
Skin Rash Due to Contact with Irritants in Dogs | petMD


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> It could be a case when it is better to stop using it completely, if you are dealing with contact dermatitis caused by prong collar:
> Skin Rash Due to Contact with Irritants in Dogs | petMD


I was at the veterinarian last week for x-rays. At the end I asked him to take a quick look at this, because I thought it was a hot spot (which would be peculiar I guess because it's cold outside). He immediately said it was probably due to the chain taking hair off. 
It's also only on that spot (nowhere else around the neck), which leaves me to suspect the vet was right, even though he only glanced at it.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> he only glanced at it.


Would you like him to glance again? Irritation by metallic thorns could be one thing, but without a proper lab analysis nobody can say anything what is wrong with his skin. Maybe prong collar is innocent in there.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

just a thought or two--are the prongs smooth and rounded at the points, as in comfortable to rub across your skin with pressure applied? 
and, is it possible that the chain tightening action is catching and pulling hairs out?

If you need a prong, there are some other versions out there, a plastic toothed one, and a metal toothed one, the names escape me at the moment. A prong collar cover 'might' help with hair-pulling.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Check out the Good Dog Collar. It is made of plastic.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@WembleyDogsUK
I have to visit my vet in three weeks on my pup's first birthday for a vaccination, I'll make sure to ask her if it is metallic irritation.
@islanddog
It is a Herm Sprenger prong, from what I've read those are the best available. The "points" are flat and smooth. I have put it around my neck and pulled with quite some force to see from what point it started to hurt. I had to use a considerable amount of force to really feel pain).
My guess is that the chain is the culprit, as he has zero damage where the pins are, no hair loss at all. The whole hair loss strip is where the chain is. 
I use a prong cover, but it doesn't cover the chain..
@wolfy dog
Do you mean a Starmark?


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

[QUOTE is it possible that the chain tightening action is catching and pulling hairs out? QUOTE]

It sounds like this may be happening since the missing fur is in the area of the chain part of the collar.

Some owners like to use a fur saver collar for just this reason.

Leerburg | Long Link Herm Sprenger Stainless Steel Fur Saver Collar


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Okay, now I'm still thinking about the chain catching and pulling hairs out, where one link connects to the next, it can catch a hair, chain pulls, hair comes out, if this keeps repeating, lots of hairs gone.
An experiment (although it will lessen the impact of the prong) is fold a bandana in half, put the prong inside the bandana; that will leave hairs underneath the bandana and chain on top of cloth.
Just saying this, as I've seen lots of hairs getting caught. My current guy has slightly longer hair than the average gsd, and he can loose some to the action of a fabric martingale. (as the loop slides through the ring).
I do remember the prong collar getting a bit 'sticky' (caught in the hairs) of my previous gsd's, but never experienced any visible rub marks.
Maybe he does have metal allergies, in which case, the bandana might help with that too.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@kelbonc
Thanks!
@islanddog
That's a good and simple idea, thanks! I've done it a bit differently though. I cut one end of an old sock open and now use it as a cover for the chain. The prong itself is still open (with only a cover above it), so the effect will not be lessend. But now it's impossible for hair to get entangled in the chain. 
Also, the cover of the prong is fixed by velcro, that means the sock sticks to it and will not slide away. I will have to test this for a few weeks to see the effect, but if I don't forget I'll post the results here!


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Henricus said:


> @kelbonc
> Thanks!
> @islanddog
> That's a good and simple idea, thanks! I've done it a bit differently though. I cut one end of an old sock open and now use it as a cover for the chain. The prong itself is still open (with only a cover above it), so the effect will not be lessend. But now it's impossible for hair to get entangled in the chain.
> Also, the cover of the prong is fixed by velcro, that means the sock sticks to it and will not slide away. I will have to test this for a few weeks to see the effect, but if I don't forget I'll post the results here!


Genius!
& please do, pictures would be awesome.


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

Henricus said:


> @kelbonc
> Thanks!
> @islanddog
> That's a good and simple idea, thanks! I've done it a bit differently though. I cut one end of an old sock open and now use it as a cover for the chain. The prong itself is still open (with only a cover above it), so the effect will not be lessend. But now it's impossible for hair to get entangled in the chain.
> Also, the cover of the prong is fixed by velcro, that means the sock sticks to it and will not slide away. I will have to test this for a few weeks to see the effect, but if I don't forget I'll post the results here!


Creative idea!! Here's hoping you get great results!!


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@islanddog @kelbonc
Thanks! 
Haha, it's a bit silly to post a picture of it, because it literally looks like an old sock around half the neck of my dog...


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Henricus said:


> @islanddog @kelbonc
> Thanks!
> Haha, it's a bit silly to post a picture of it, because it literally looks like an old sock around half the neck of my dog...


Which is exactly why I want to see a picture.:grin2:


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

Well if the sock is a success Henricus, you then can always reproduce the pattern with a piece of fabric (with a bit of stretch in it) that you like.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@islanddog
Here it is then, just for you! 









@kelbonc
It is a partial succes, because it teared up quite easy. He has a new small strip of hair loss.


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

*@everyone that uses a (HS) prong*

I'm now certain that the chain of the prong is the culprit. Look at how the sock got teared up:










I think it's due to this:









Can someone confirm this is normal on a HS prong? Every chain link has the same cut in it.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Ah, there's the culprit. The link is open. It should be smoothly welded shut.
I couldn't find my herm sprenger, just a no name knock off, but all of it's links are welded shut. 
So, if replacing, run your hands along all the points--they should be rounded and baby smooth. And make sure the chain links are welded and smooth--I would never have thought of checking for that.
I think you got a knock off or the chain was switched. I think herm sprenger should be better than that. Maybe the link split later under pressure or it's one bad link. Are they all open?

As for the sock--very dignified--I'd go for one of those grey & red lumber jack socks. :laugh2:


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@islanddog
Haha, it's not a pretty picture. You're idea is much better indeed.  But I probably won't need it anymore with a new prong! 

It is, as far as I can tell, an official HS prong.









It's very difficult to find a store that sells prongs here in the NL. I found one and it is on the other side of the country. But I will definitely call them and email this picture. 
Yes, all links are open. You can see it a bit on the picture above. I also only found it after I noticed the teared up sock. So I can't imagine it happening under pressure. Also, these links are quite thick. I imagine they can hold up quite some weight.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Henricus said:


> @islanddog
> Haha, it's not a pretty picture. You're idea is much better indeed.  But I probably won't need it anymore with a new prong!
> 
> It is, as far as I can tell, an official HS prong.
> ...


You can't buy online?


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

@eddie1976E
I can, only three though. And just one of them has a store, which is a two hour drive. 
Which is the problem, I can't to any store to see if all prongs have chain links that are not welded properly (which in itself sounds impossible). 

But I just called them and emailed the pictures. She will contact HS and send the pictures to them, probably for a refund. I will have to wait their response to her.


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Unearthed more prongs--none have open links. One is genuine hs, welded links. Hopefully you'll get a good replacement instead of a refund. It looks like maybe you just got an oopsie.
For online, contact a store prior to purchase, explain your concern, judge them by their response.
Or keep the socks on...


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## Henricus (Jan 9, 2016)

Socks are still on!  

Little update here. I'm getting refund from HS, they do want to prong for "inspection".
This is what they emailed back to the store in question: 



> We come back to your e.mail and the photos of the collar 50105 010 55 you attached to this.
> 
> We suppose that the strength is OK.
> 
> ...



Now the store owner seemed to think it was because of me (or my super strong dog) that the links opened. Which is impossible. They weren't welded in the first place, it's just a faulty product that somehow slipped through production lines. It does however show how strong these things are. All the links are open, none welded, but they haven't moved a hair. 

She sells a smaller prong from HS, the 2.5mm. Do you guys recommend that over the 3.2mm?


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