# How would you handle this?



## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

This may get long. I purchased a German Shepherd puppy from a breeder in NC. I brought him home at 9 weeks this last Sun. We picked him up around 1pm. He ate a good meal that evening but that night he threw up in his crate. I noticed his breathing was heavy. He seemed ok otherwise other than he was on the tired side. Tuesday morning, he tested strong positive for parvo. He died early Thursday morning. This puppy clearly had parvo when we picked him up from the breeder on Sun. She actually lost one of his littermates that morning. She told me it was from a bite of some kind and that he had an allergic reaction. I asked about parvo and she said it was neg. My vet did call to confirm this to be true. I am assuming he died of parvo as well. At the time, I did not know this.

The breeder has offered us a full refund. That's great but what about the $700 worth of vet bills? I have no idea if this is something good breeders will help with or not. She has another puppy that she co-owns with a friend that is 3 months old and has survived parvo. She has offered him up for a replacement but no money back if I go that route. I do like the puppy and would consider taking him but I think some kind of refund is in order even with the replacement. Am I thinking this all wrong here? 

I paid 1200 for the original puppy. $500 deposit a few months ago and then $700 last Sunday when I picked him up. I told her I wanted my $700 back to cover the vet bills and she could keep the $500 in exchange for the puppy. Or, I could just get my money back and go elsewhere. 

I guess I am wondering if she is handling the situation correctly. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Sandy


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would get your money back and go elsewhere. Two dead from this litter, plus and older one who had it...sounds like she needs to take a break and sanitize her home and kennel (and I'm not sure exactly how parvo works but you might want to wait a while before bringing home another puppy because it's probably at your place now too).

That is what I would do, as a buyer.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

OK - she had a litter now 3 months who had parvo - the offered replaced survived parvo.

Now a 9 week old litter is dying from parvo.

I think you are lucky that she offered your $1200 back. I doubt you will get vet bills back....the second litter should never have been sold until they were vaccinated at least twice - it was too late not to DO the second breeding but darn - I would think that she would have done everything humanly possible to keep the second litter healthy.... 

Personally - I think I would take it and find a puppy elsewhere in a month or so - do not bring a puppy home immediately because of the risk of parvo infection.

Lee


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

The litter I got my puppy from was a litter of 3. The two males were sick, the female is fine. The 3 month old puppy she co-owns is living at another breeders house. The breeder said this is her first case of parvo ever on her property. I have no idea about the friends place other than she is a good friend of hers. Her litter had parvo a while back and all survived except one. The male puppy they are offering was pick of the litter. They had planned to keep him until this happened. I asked for another puppy so they offered him to me as a replacement. I never intended to pay full price for him though. I was thinking I would take him at a discount.

I spoke with my vet and she agreed that he should be immune to parvo and safe to come home with me. I would need to wait on getting another puppy though. I did the bleach and water thing all over and straight bleach on the areas he pooped. He had only pooped 3 times while in my care. The rest of the time he was at my vets. So far, my other two shepherds are fine. Crossing my fingers.

I guess I am really wondering if she is handling this the right way considering he was 100% infected with parvo the day we picked him up. She was not aware of this but she did know that his brother was very sick and had to be put to sleep that morning. I should have waited. I should have known better!

Sandy


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If she did not disclose to you that the brother was sick and died before you came to get your puppy, then IMO that is not right. Whether or not she owes you for vet bills would be based on your original agreement/contract.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree - sounds like there are some disease control issues at her place. I would take the refund money for the puppy and look elsewhere. However, your house and anywhere the puppy was indoors should be considered as contaminated for at least 30 days from the last time the puppy was there. Your yard or anywhere the puppy was outside is contaminated for the next year. You absolutely should not have a puppy in either of those places during those periods unless the puppy has already survived parvo or has had at least 3 rounds of shots - and even in the latter case, IMO, you're taking a risk. 

So depending on the level of contamination from the puppy you just had, and your desire to get a puppy sooner rather than later, the 3 month old parvo survivor might be a good option, since assuming a normal immune system, a dog isn't going to get parvo twice. If you got the 3 month old, it would be nice if she'd offer you some money to help out with your vet expenses on the last puppy but whether or not she's obligated to do that will depend on your contract.


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> So depending on the level of contamination from the puppy you just had, and your desire to get a puppy sooner rather than later, the 3 month old parvo survivor might be a good option, since assuming a normal immune system, a dog isn't going to get parvo twice. If you got the 3 month old, it would be nice if she'd offer you some money to help out with your vet expenses on the last puppy but whether or not she's obligated to do that will depend on your contract.


This was my resolution. I would be happy getting some of my money back and getting the puppy seeing how now I'll need to wait to get another puppy. The contract does not state she will help out with vet bills. I just think it would be the right thing to do given the fact she sold me a sick puppy. She did sell me the puppy knowing that his brother was very sick and had to be put to sleep that morning. She did not know it was more than likely parvo. She should have made me wait to see how the other pups faired before letting me take him.

Thanks,
Sandy


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree with you - if you purchased a sick puppy and she had good reason to know he was sick, it does seem like it would be good gesture on her part. Although if she was co-owning the other pup and is now willing to give him as an exchange, perhaps this was a dog she planned to show or breed? If so, that might indicate a concession and attempt to make it right on her part too. 

Bottom line though, if she knew she had parvo on the premises from the last litter, she should have been a lot more careful in disease control with this litter and should definitely have had her parvo red flag go up the second any of the pups fell ill. And yes, definitely should have warned you and/or held back the pups until she knew what she was dealing with.


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> Bottom line though, if she knew she had parvo on the premises from the last litter, she should have been a lot more careful in disease control with this litter and should definitely have had her parvo red flag go up the second any of the pups fell ill. And yes, definitely should have warned you and/or held back the pups until she knew what she was dealing with.


This was my breeders first parvo in her kennel. The other 3 month old puppy that had parvo lives with someone else. she claims they don't visit each other when they have puppies but I don't believe it. There's seems to be a lot of parvo between the two of them in the last few months. 

Sandy


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I would take my money and run.Then I would wait it out the 30 days and find myself a new pup at a breeder that has nothing to do with this one.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I would check with my vet regarding the amount of time to wait to be sure my home is free of parvo - I thought it was something more like 6 months you had to wait.

I don't know what I would do about the replacement pup. Depends on what you know about the dogs and how you feel about it.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I have read 6 months to a year to get Parvo off your property...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Then I would wait it out the 30 days and find myself a new pup at a breeder that has nothing to do with this one.


30 days is correct for in the house but it ONLY applies to contamination _within the house_. The length of time the outdoors is contaminated depends on the climate and time of year, but generally one year is considered the "safe" period. Cold weather is completely protective to the parvo virus, so if you lived somewhere very hot and dry, your yard is going to become parvo free a lot faster than if you live somewhere wetter and colder. Since this just happened, for most of us, the soonest it would be safe to have a young puppy in the yard again would be next spring/summer.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Stupid me. I thought one of the replies said 30 days.I guess I didn't read it thoroughly.
I will rephrase it then take your money and run and wait till what ever your vet says for a safe amount of time.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

I'd take the $1200 cash... and find another breeder to get a pup. IF you can find a pup 4 months old who's had full Parvo Vac thru 16 weeks you should be okay, especially if you sanitize your home. 

In fairness to you she may not have recognized the condition prior to sale... but with the brother dieing, and a pup from a former litter being a survivor of parvo (was he ever in her house?) it's reason to wonder for sure. If that surviving pup was in her home at any time he may have shed the parvo and given it to her pups. The sister isn't safely out of the woods as yet. I wouldn't want to take the parvo survivor... Possibility of other damage from the parvo would be a concern. I had parvo 30 years ago in an Akita litter, and one of the surviving pups later became 100% deaf.

Once you get that cash in hand I'd bring up the Vet bills, and give her a COPY of the report of the strong positive parvo. In some states there is a lemon law covering pre-existing medical conditions and you might get some or all of the vet bills back. You also might have to go to court to get that. Unless she's more fortunate than most of us and happens to have loose cash laying around.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

take the money and find another breeder with healthy puppies.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

What did you want to do with this puppy?

If you decide to accept the pup, meet at a vet clinic (not her usual vet but one that is completely objective) get the puppy examined - I'd want a SNAP test for Parvo & Antibody Titre done for the vaccines (to confirm vaccination status/effectiveness http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm) before I accepted any health claims from this breeder. Given the parvo incident & her refusal to pay any vet bills (she should've offered at least 50% immediately) I wouldn't expect this breeder to stand behind any future issues with the pup.

Personally I'd take my money & run!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'd take the $1,200 refund for the dead pup and run. 

If you want to pursue her for the vet bill for selling you a sick puppy thru Small Claims Court I'd make that a completely separate issue (it might be more trouble than it's worth).


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I would take the $1,200 and review what your contract stated as well as check the lemon laws. If the contract required for you to go to the vet within "x" amount of time, you did so and had a sick puppy, I would then send a copy of the vet bills and a letter from the vet and request a refund.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86I would take the $1,200 and review what your contract stated as well as check the lemon laws. If the contract required for you to go to the vet within "x" amount of time, you did so and had a sick puppy, I would then send a copy of the vet bills and a letter from the vet and request a refund.


I agree totally!


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

Thanks everyone! I'll let you know the outcome after I hear from her hopefully today. She is not offering my vet bills or to even help with them. We did ask. She is offering full money back. I requested she give me back $700 to cover cost of vet bills and keep the $500 in exchange for the older puppy. We'll see what she says. 

Thanks,
Sandy


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

I would have the older pup thoroughly vetted with a cardiac profile. Parvo can leave lingering heart damage. 


(Experienced this with a Dobie parvo-survivor)


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

I don't know, i'd still look for another breeder and just take the refund and if you really want, small claims for the vet bills.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I would not accept the pup that was already sick, MAYBE with a full refund but I would not want a pup that had been that sick as it could have a compromised health for his entire life.


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

I declined the puppy. I asked for my money back and that is what she is agreeing to do. I do think she should be partially responsible for my vet bills but I'll take what i can get.

Thanks,
Sandy


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not think you can start out with a feeling of being fairly treated and trust this breeder. I would not take the other puppy. IF it had Parvo, it cannot get that strain of Parvo again. But it could have other issues. But it has to do with trusting the breeder. 

Parvo is a nasty killer. I am sorry that you have had this problem. Go on the net and find the proper amount of bleach/water to disinfect EVERYTHING the poor puppy was around and near. I think you have to leave the bleach on for ten minutes then rinse well. 

I really do not know what you do for carpets. I have never had parvo. Scarey. 

I bout of parvo is bad because most strains can be vaccinated against. Vaccinations last 5-7 years and most vets revaccinate every three years. But parvo can be carried to you home and kennels on people's shoes. People go puppy shopping, they stop at a few breeders and look at puppies, then they stop at the shelter and look at the dogs/puppies there, then they come to your house and look at your litter, bringing their little parvo shoes with them. 

I do not know what the breeder should do. Since the pup she sold you definitely had the parvo before it left her house, I would feel compelled to pay the vet bills, but it would be hard. All that I put into my dogs, what comes back is only a fraction of what goes in. Still if the pup died two days after you got it home, then the breeder ought to feel responsible. 

Legally, I don't know. 

My contract says that I will fully refund the money for a puppy for two weeks. But it does not mention what I will do if the dog becomes ill. I was at the vet today petting an eight week old English Bulldog and an eight week old lab puppy. The lab was not on the floor, but the Bulldog was. People do not have much sense. MY SISTER PUT CUJO AT SIX WEEKS OLD ON THE FLOOR OF THE ER!!!

She looked at me and I was hyperventilating, pointing, and uable to talk, I managed, get him up! She did and said, "is that ok?" The ER vet tech, backed me up and said, you have no idea what might be there. (My sister still thinks I am nuts.) People take four and six week old puppies to the pet store, let them crawl on the floor and then wonder why their pup got sick, must be the breeder. (I am not saying this is what happened with your pup.)

So while, I doubt that there is anything in your contract that covers veterinary costs this early on, if she wants to do right by you, she would cover at least a portion of the vet bills. 

That is just my opinion. However, if the dog were to have a genetic condition later on, even though you were sold a defective pup, it would not be the breeder's responsibility to cover vet care, only replacement or refund. This is because it is understood that nothing is created perfect and some animals will have issues. For things that are likely, some people charge a higher cost for a puppy and refund or replace a puppy in the event of an issue. 

After you buy a pup it can get sick and die. At some point the purchaser takes on responsibility for the puppy. The breeder may feel that point was when you took possession of the pup. She is refunding the money so she is out a 1200 puppy from this disease, two it seems. You are out $700. 

I really don't know. If she knew the pup was sick then she should never have sold it to you. If I was the judge, I would rule in your favor, but the cost of going after her, would probably be much higher that just eating this. In all her losses from this are higher than yours. She does not have a safe place for a litter for a year plus too, and hopefully she understands that. 

In a perfect world all breeders would be independently wealthy. Then they could cover stuff like this so that you are out nothing from the whole thing, plus a bit more for you gas and trouble. In the world we got, many breeders are losing money on every litter even without complications. Only the crappiest of puppy mills and possibly people with the top dogs in the country can make money.

Good luck. I am sorry for the puppy getting sick and losing it. It is sad. It is awful that you cannot feel confident about getting another pup yet too.


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

She e-mailed me today asking why I didnt just bring him back to her if I couldn't handle the vet bills???? I told her I shouldnt have to handle vet bills within a day of bringing him home. I kept in contact with her throughout the days. We e-mailed back and forth several times a day. I let her know every move I made with him. Even asked her if she was sure the other pupy didn't have parvo. SHe never once suggested I bring him back. She just kept offering ideas as to what I might do to make him feel better and telling me how sorry she was. I would have never asked her to help with the bills if he had lived. But since he died, I felt like she was responsible. Oh well, nothing I can do about it now. You live and learn I guess.

Thanks
Sandy


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## gsdsrule (Apr 10, 2009)

If you got the price of the puppy back, that's great.
Now take her to small claims court for the vet bills. It is a simple procedure, very little paperwork to fill out, and she is on the 
hook for selling you a dog that sick.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You may want to run it by some legal advice. I think it is only like 25$ to put in a claim. But you will then have to wait for them to call your case, then you will have to take off work and go. There may be delays. There may be all kinds of problems. 

It sucks that a dog you bought was sick, but going through a legal battle over it, will keep it all raw and open, sometimes for months It is hard to say, small claims court might not be so bad.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The time I went through small claims court it cost nothing to file. The difficulty is although you may get a judgement in your favor, you still have to collect - the court will not do that for you.

I considered it with Barker the Elder (all sorts of problems with that breeder) but decided that yes, I would get the judgement but it would require at least one day off of work, a 2+ hour drive with possible postponements (court won't necessarily tell you about them until you arrive) and then I would have to try to collect from the uncooperative woman.


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

I would love to try but honestly, she lives 4hours from me in another state. I would have to drive back and forth to NC. With gas etc, I think I'll just cut my losses.

Thanks everyone so much!

Sandy


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Whether he lived or not, he was a sick puppy and taken to the vet within 48 hours. 

What does the contract state and what does she require with a vet visit etc?


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## srr1933 (Jun 27, 2009)

The contract said I could bring him back for any reason within 72 hours. That's why she was asking why I didn't bring him back. She certainly wasn't suggesting it when I was going through this. #1 reason I didn't take him back was I never thought he was going to die, he started improving and then went south. #2, I already loved him. I didn't want to give up on him and drive a sick puppy back to NC. Just couldn't do it. The other topper was he was full of roundworms even though his fecal that was done a few days before was negative. She did give me a vet letter stating he was in good health ect. 

Sandy


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

"The other topper was he was full of roundworms even though his fecal that was done a few days before was negative. She did give me a vet letter stating he was in good health ect. "

The vet visit was within 72 hours and a sick puppy can not travel. I would check into the state lemon laws as well.


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

I would thank my lucky stars, WHEN you get your refund and shop elsewhere.


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