# Help with picking out a puppy



## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

We are in the process of picking out a puppy and the more research that I do the more confused I get! 

We are a big family with 4 kids aged 10-15. We have a black lab and 2 small dogs (chihuahua and a mix breed). The Chihuahua is older and has high anxiety, never really leaves her crate except to pee outside. She'd be great in a home with no kids.. but we are selfish and can't part with her.. sorry getting off topic  

I have ALWAYS wanted a German Shepherd for as long as I can remember. My wife is willing to let me get one, seemed simple but I think i've done so much research now that my head is spinning. 

I just want a good family dog. Someone to go hiking with me, camping, hang out at kids ball games, etc. 

There are lots from back yard breeders in the 500-$1000 range. I was all set on one but my research then said to avoid them. the dog will be a mess, have hip problems, elbow problems, allergies, you name it! 

So then I started looking at good breeders, while then you get into DDR, west german, show lines, american show lines, etc... holy crap... I just want a dog  The more I look the more the price goes up and the more stressed out my lovely wife gets with me spending a small fortune on a pup! 

I am getting so confused by all of this i'm starting to think I shouldn't get one at all or just take my chances on a typical back yard breeder. I have mixed feelings on if they really are all that bad, they just seem to be typical farm raised dogs.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

I have some links to potential puppies we are considered, am I allowed posting them? Dont want to break any rules on my first day


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How old is the Lab and what gender? In this family with these pets, how much time do you have to spare? What activities do you do with your Lab? What are you plans for this pup? How passionate are you about dogs and training? A GSD is not a dog to 'just have around'. Your old Chihuahua would have to live in a separate area if you introduce a GSD pup to keep her retirement peaceful. A good GSD is easily $1800 - $2000, that is if the breeder does his/her job.
Many questions but it will help us with giving you answers.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

1. https://www.kijiji.ca/v-dogs-puppie...le/1283749534?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
Lady seems nice, we are going to look at them on Sunday. Seems very knowledgeable. She has 3 other ones that only the Dad is an imported dog and they are $1500
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-dogs-puppie...ds/1283764223?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

2. https://www.kijiji.ca/v-dogs-puppie...le/1174537191?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
this lady is amazing, she's so helpful, responds to emails/msgs right away, etc. However the only pup left is $2,000. He's a black sable with silver undercoat, apparently a very rare color although I must admit I prefer the standard traditional looking german shepherd better. My wife is against this one because of price and color, she also prefers the standard look. 

3. https://www.kijiji.ca/v-dogs-puppie...es/1287202949?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
These ones I have mixed feelings on... the lady seems very nice but almost comes across as a used car salesman in her claims... Maybe she's right though. She is telling me that they shed way less then the short hairs, the long hairs have better temperaments, they are calmer, etc. The feelings are mixed because the dogs are beautiful! To note these are not shiloh, she just advertises them that way because "direct off spring of world champions so they are 100 % pure bred gsd and that is why they are registered but people in Canada never have seen pure bred german shepherd and keep calling our shepherds shiloh or king because they have longer coat and a rich pigment but this the real deal and that is why they have higher IQ and are a lot calmer and shed a LOT less" She's a very sweet lady, very quick to respond to emails and questions.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> How old is the Lab and what gender? In this family with these pets, how much time do you have to spare? What activities do you do with your Lab? What are you plans for this pup? How passionate are you about dogs and training? A GSD is not a dog to 'just have around'. Your old Chihuahua would have to live in a separate area if you introduce a GSD pup to keep her retirement peaceful. A good GSD is easily $1800 - $2000, that is if the breeder does his/her job.
> Many questions but it will help us with giving you answers.


1. How old is the Lab and what gender? - He's 5 and male

2. In this family with these pets, how much time do you have to spare? - A lot... with the kids growing up, always at friends houses, grandparents etc my wife and I are finding a lot of free time. The 10 year old barely wants anything to do with us anymore, he wants to hang out with the cool older brothers lol 

3. What activities do you do with your Lab? - Daily walks and the dog park on a regular basis. I take him camping and hiking with me when I can get him away from the kids. My 12 year old and the lab are tied at the hip, they do everything together so I don't get much time with the dog haha. When the 12 year old leaves, the lab will lay at the door and wait for him. It's almost to the point of being unhealthy but he sure does love that kid! 

4. What are you plans for this pup? - The pup will be more for my wife and I.. although i'm sure the kids will have the initial puppy phase where they love him haha. He will go camping and hiking with me. I've been working on losing weight and getting in shape and would love to have him come along. We also spend a lot of time at the ball park. My oldest son plays competitive baseball and it's not uncommon for us to spend 10 hours at the ball park. Lots of people bring there dogs and we like to do the same. He will be in obedience but I have no idea how far we will take it. My wife has always loved watching the agility and we have thoughts of it.. but 0 experience and no idea about it really so it's a slim chance at this point and if we did do it, it would only be for fun not trying to win a world championship  

5. How passionate are you about dogs and training? - I've wanted a GSD since I was a little kid, I have to admit it's the only dog I want. If you guys say no way is a GSD right for you guys, I just wont get another dog.. or I may not believe you and get one anyways.. but there is no other breed I want. 

6. Your old Chihuahua would have to live in a separate area if you introduce a GSD pup to keep her retirement peaceful. - Unfortunately in this busy house there isn't much peaceful for her.. she usually relegates herself into my bedroom and sleeps the day a way. The lab isn't allowed upstairs, but to be honest it's more the kids running around that she does not like. Although i'm sure she wont like a hyper puppy she never had issues with the lab as a pup but she was younger then. 

7. A good GSD is easily $1800 - $2000, that is if the breeder does his/her job. - Yes, bit of a "sticker" shock for me! had the same thing when I bought my F150 LOL


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

#1, and #2 breeders are working line dogs which may not be the best choice for a couple of reasons, but definitely the wrong choice if you want a standard Black and Tan dog. Breeder #3 is way too gimmicky from what you've posted and that's usually a big red flag. 

If you're just after a Black and Tan hiking and camping buddy I think showlines would be fine but I think they're usually more expensive.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm bad about this so I apologize but I also forgot to mention idk what kijiji is, but personally I would ask for breeder recommendations here when you settle on the type of dog you want.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> #1, and #2 breeders are working line dogs which may not be the best choice for a couple of reasons, but definitely the wrong choice if you want a standard Black and Tan dog. Breeder #3 is way too gimmicky from what you've posted and that's usually a big red flag.
> 
> If you're just after a Black and Tan hiking and camping buddy I think showlines would be fine but I think they're usually more expensive.


I read to stay away from show lines as they are more prone to hip issues? 

regarding the black and tan, the pups in the 1st one look black and tan to me? I've got some better pics she sent as well. Maybe I just dont understand the colors properly lol.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> I'm bad about this so I apologize but I also forgot to mention idk what kijiji is, but personally I would ask for breeder recommendations here when you settle on the type of dog you want.


Kijiji is an online classified, we've looked on it, facebook, google searches, etc.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Those puppies look sable to me


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

konathegsd said:


> Those puppies look sable to me


yes they are listed as "working line sable" 

They are much lighter though then the black sable so I guess that's maybe what my wife and I prefer. To be honest I don't want to make this decision purely on looks, more worried about the best quality dog at this point.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Yea I thought sable. But at any rate here's the long story, as short as I can make it. 

BYB - there's no guarantee you'll get a sickly mutt. There's more of a chance you will tho. A BYB generally doesn't understand genetics and breeding and will breed big strong cute dog A with big snuggly sweet dog B and think that'll make a great set of pups. It may or may not, who knows. The other big knock is they don't typically do the health screening on their breeding stock. Typically you're going to get a 6 week old pup that hasn't even had his shots because it cuts into their profits. I can't recommend enough against this. 

Reputable breeders - again there no guarantee. No one knows what a pup will be when he grows up. He'll be affected by environment and his owners commitment/capability. I could take a dog with exceptional genetics and be outclassed by one with ok genetics raised/trained by an exceptional handler. Also, even tho these breeders do typically have health screenings and hip certs etc done in their breeding stock there's still no guarantee your pup won't ever have health problems. You do however have more options in the event it does happen. A reputable breeder will give you a health guarantee and should you decide to you'd be able to swap your pup be refunded in the event that their hips are bad (before 24 mos in my case at least). Reputable breeders will also typically have their breeding stock titled and thereby showing they meet the standard for the breed. This is a big advantage although again it's no guarantee how your pup will turn out. 

Working line vs show line - this is the time to be very honest with yourself. Do you have the time, and willingness to fully commit to working this dog in one way or another(a hike and camping trip here and there isn't enough) or do you want a companion/pet? There's no prestige or machoness in owning a working dog just for the sake of it. And in fact it will quickly turn into a headache and you'll find yourself making posts here and shelling out even more money to try to turn your working dog into a pet dog. This is not to say all showlines are good pet dogs, or all working dogs are unfit to be pets. These are generalizations and every dog is an individual.

Coloring - don't be shallow. Form follows function. 

Pricing - yea $1500-$2000 sounds like a lot but it's going to be the cheapest part of owning this dog. It's a one time hit. Once you tally up vet costs, costs for taking him to and from training, club fees, the cost to feed him, etc you're going to realize how small that initial cost is. Even more so if you get hit with some serious health issues and the bills start getting to the thousands. Which is more likely with poorly bred BYB dogs. 

So the starting point is to decide the type of commitment you want to make and pick the type of dog. Then go from there as far as finding a reputable breeder etc.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the third one is not advertising German Shepherds - but Shiloh Shepherds - I have seen quite a few and all have been ....problematic


The other two are working lines - I have seen postings by the owner or breeder of the dog in the second link


Are you in Canada????? Contact Carmspack here for working line or recommendations on same.....there are a few showline breeders (European lines - not CKC/AKC types).....look up dei Precision German Shepherds.....

Lee


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> Yea I thought sable. But at any rate here's the long story, as short as I can make it.
> 
> BYB - there's no guarantee you'll get a sickly mutt. There's more of a chance you will tho. A BYB generally doesn't understand genetics and breeding and will breed big strong cute dog A with big snuggly sweet dog B and think that'll make a great set of pups. It may or may not, who knows. The other big knock is they don't typically do the health screening on their breeding stock. Typically you're going to get a 6 week old pup that hasn't even had his shots because it cuts into their profits. I can't recommend enough against this.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the excellent reply!

BYB - have to admit all 3 of our current dogs came from one and the Chihuahua has issues from bad genes. I don't want to run into that with my GSD. What I am finding though is it seems like all of the reputable breeders are doing working lines. I did manage to find a breeder who is right in my home town who says he uses west german show lines but he wont answer his phone or return my emails after almost a week now so that's a huge red flag for me and I don't think I want to deal with him. 

This is one of the reasons for my wife wanting to go with the breeder who has the 6 female pups. We'd be able to see all 6 and try and get an idea on what the pups are like, energy levels, etc With the breeder that only has the black sable, it's more of a take it or leave it, we've missed the chance to see the litter interact together.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

wolfstraum said:


> the third one is not advertising German Shepherds - but Shiloh Shepherds - I have seen quite a few and all have been ....problematic
> 
> 
> The other two are working lines - I have seen postings by the owner or breeder of the dog in the second link
> ...


They are not Shiloh Shepherds, they are registered purebred German Shepherds. This is one of the red flags for me, it seems almost like she's trying to attract people looking for both dogs maybe. Almost like a key word? I asked her about it, because I said Shiloh's cannot be CKC registered but your pups are? and she said ""direct off spring of world champions so they are 100 % pure bred gsd and that is why they are registered but people in Canada never have seen pure bred german shepherd and keep calling our shepherds shiloh or king because they have longer coat and a rich pigment but this the real deal and that is why they have higher IQ and are a lot calmer and shed a LOT less" " 

Thank you for the heads up on the breeder "dei Precision German Shepherds" One of there dogs "xbox" is actually listed on the page of my local breeder as being the Grandfather of the pup they have available. Unfortunately it's the breeder I mentioned above that is difficult to contact. Maybe he's just had a busy week, and will catch up on the weekend  

"dei Precision German Shepherds" lists a 8 month old female, I think I'll send them an email about her although I was hoping for a younger pup to get used to the small dogs and kids! But I'll see what they think!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> They are not Shiloh Shepherds, they are registered purebred German Shepherds. This is one of the red flags for me, it seems almost like she's trying to attract people looking for both dogs maybe. Almost like a key word? I asked her about it, because I said Shiloh's cannot be CKC registered but your pups are? and she said ""direct off spring of world champions so they are 100 % pure bred gsd and that is why they are registered but people in Canada never have seen pure bred german shepherd and keep calling our shepherds shiloh or king because they have longer coat and a rich pigment but this the real deal and that is why they have higher IQ and are a lot calmer and shed a LOT less" "
> 
> Thank you for the heads up on the breeder "dei Precision German Shepherds" One of there dogs "xbox" is actually listed on the page of my local breeder as being the Grandfather of the pup they have available. Unfortunately it's the breeder I mentioned above that is difficult to contact. Maybe he's just had a busy week, and will catch up on the weekend
> 
> "dei Precision German Shepherds" lists a 8 month old female, I think I'll send them an email about her although I was hoping for a younger pup to get used to the small dogs and kids! But I'll see what they think!



Us Canucks spend to much time in Igloos to recognize pure bred German Shepherds don't ya know eh! 


It looks like Breeder number 1 is Wendelin Farm in Ontario? They have some very nice pups, I can say this because I am currently working with 2 different pups from that kennel.

The only thing I would caution you on is; to be very accurate when you describe what type of pup you want from them. If you want a high drive active pup let them know that, if you want a pup that is more laid back be very specific with them. Accuracy is very important because they will provide you with what you ask for, and without sounding rude......what you ask for and what you can really live with are sometimes two different things.

Good luck, and $1500 for a pup is very reasonable, we charge $2,500.

Kim


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> Us Canucks spend to much time in Igloos to recognize pure bred German Shepherds don't ya know eh!
> 
> 
> It looks like Breeder number 1 is Wendelin Farm in Ontario? They have some very nice pups, I can say this because I am currently working with 2 different pups from that kennel.
> ...


haha **** igloos! 

The first breeder is Signature Farms in Morrisburg Ontario. The nice thing with them is they have 6 to choose from, all female.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> haha **** igloos!
> 
> The first breeder is Signature Farms in Morrisburg Ontario. The nice thing with them is they have 6 to choose from, all female.


Research is a great tool, and always (whenever possible) go in person and see how and where the pups are raised, how they respond to you etc.

good luck

Kim


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Shilohs are NOT German shepherds! This is false advertising. The founder of the Shiloh breed, Tina Barber, crossed her German shepherds with what she said was a giant malamute to create the breed. I have it on good authority, that at least one of the out-crosses she made was to a timber wolf.

I would stay away from the breed, or anyone who claims their GSDs are Shilohs. NOT TRUE!!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

thegooseman90 said:


> I'm bad about this so I apologize but I also forgot to mention idk what kijiji is, but personally I would ask for breeder recommendations here when you settle on the type of dog you want.


Kijiji, or how many i and js, is the online version of advertising puppies in the paper. I personally would not go that route. 
OP, have you considered/checked the rescues? 
Since your Labrador is a male, you probablyare best of with a female GSD as long as she won't be able to harass your Chi.
Good luck on your search. Try to keep your heart out of it when looking at puppies. They all are cute but that stage only lasts a few months.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Long Coat German Shepherds

That's the website of the dogs that she puts Shiloh in the ad even though they are not Shiloh... I really love the look of these dogs and the temperament she claims is probably perfect for us. What do you guys think of the website/dogs? Is it true these very long haired dogs are not going to shed as much? what about having a better temperament?


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Shilohs are NOT German shepherds! This is false advertising. The founder of the Shiloh breed, Tina Barber, crossed her German shepherds with what she said was a giant malamute to create the breed. I have it on good authority, that at least one of the out-crosses she made was to a timber wolf.
> 
> I would stay away from the breed, or anyone who claims their GSDs are Shilohs. NOT TRUE!!


Check out the website I posted above.. this what is throwing up a red flag for me with this breeder. She claims she puts Shiloh in the ad simply because that's what people in Canada think they look like. The dogs pedigree is available and they are CKC registered so they are 100% GSD.. Her putting Shiloh in is the confusing part! To me it seems like she's using it as a keyword so when people search for Shiloh her GSD are showing up and they "look" like Shilohs. They are also on the large side, she said the male pups are tracking to be 100-120lbs!


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Kijiji, or how many i and js, is the online version of advertising puppies in the paper. I personally would not go that route.
> OP, have you considered/checked the rescues?
> Since your Labrador is a male, you probablyare best of with a female GSD as long as she won't be able to harass your Chi.
> Good luck on your search. Try to keep your heart out of it when looking at puppies. They all are cute but that stage only lasts a few months.


I looked into a rescue but with our youngest son being 10 they wouldn't even consider us... which really irritates me! THey had a 6 month old female, we wanted. They said they would only place with kids 12+.. as someone with 3 kids of my own and being a foster parent this really got on my nerves... wait to stereotype kids.. I said how about you come do a home visit, meet our kids and then decide? but they didn't even bother to reply despite the ad saying they urgently need a home! Kids are like dogs, not all of them are the same, so to say because a kid is 10 and not 12 we cannot give a dog a home is just silly... I'm not even going to consider another rescue. Probably for the best anyways as I think a pup will adapt to us better and it is important to grow up with our small dogs from a young age. 

As far as Kijiji goes, i've read that on some forums but the reality is almost everyone who buys/sells a dog now uses Kijiji. I actually found a couple breeders in other threads recommended on this site with ads on Kijiji. I think it's just how things are bought/sold here now. Kijiji has done a great job with there online listings and weeding out the people who shouldn't be on it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Tenny stay the heck away from her! Shes FULL of lies! (I wanted to say something else, but I'm not allowed to say that here...) There is NO difference in temperament between stock coat and long coat GSD! You can get both in the same litter. Coat length has exactly ZERO to do with temperament!

As for the difference in shedding: it's a dog, it's a German shepherd...the nickname for the breed is the German Shedding Dog. If you don't want to deal with shedding and frequent brushing during shedding season, get another breed!

ALL dogs shed, though it's minimal with breeds like poodles that require clipping. And then if you don't do routine maintenance (brushing and clipping) on the coat, it mats, and the poor dog has to be shaved down to the skin.

Sorry, used to run a kennel with a grooming business, so this is a bit of a sore point with me. You wouldn't BELIEVE some of the things I've seen! And dishonest breeders shoulder a good part of the blame by claiming the dog doesn't shed and is 'low maintenance'!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Not familiar with the breeder, but as for coaties not shedding as much not true imop. I have wgsl and Czech WL, both male, both coated and both shed. The under coat "hangs" up and needs to be brushed out. When you pet a stock coat you'll often get loose hair that'll come out as you do this, you don't notice this much with a coatie as it stays trapped. Both coat types will shed, one will require more brushing, the other more vacuuming, :grin2:


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Shilohs are NOT German shepherds! This is false advertising. The founder of the Shiloh breed, Tina Barber, crossed her German shepherds with what she said was a giant malamute to create the breed. I have it on good authority, that at least one of the out-crosses she made was to a timber wolf.
> 
> I would stay away from the breed, or anyone who claims their GSDs are Shilohs. NOT TRUE!!



No offense intended, but I have some legitimate experience with "Real Wolves", in fact my wife colored one for a Toyota commercial 2 years ago. And I doubt very much that Tina Barber has ever seen a real wolf, and would not ever be in a position to breed one with a "giant malamute".

Lets put this Shilo stuff to bed and continue with proper advice to the poster.


Kim


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> No offense intended, but I have some legitimate experience with "Real Wolves", in fact my wife colored one for a Toyota commercial 2 years ago. And I doubt very much that Tina Barber has ever seen a real wolf, and would not ever be in a position to breed one with a "giant malamute".
> 
> Lets put this Shilo stuff to bed and continue with proper advice to the poster.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I think the breeder means well and looking at the pedigree of the parents they do seem to have been imported from Europe and from good breeding backgrounds. I have not met them yet but judging by the name I don't think English is the first language and I think that may be causing some of the red flags that i'm getting from her.

CZAKO ze Skalnego Wzgorza
SIRE: FELLO v. Hous Galli
DAM: XILA ze Skalnego Wzgorza
Imported from Europe

SHANTI
EVA vom Zisawinkel
SIRE: VEGAS du Hunt Mansard
DAM: GINA vom Zisawinkel
Imported from Germany

Sire is a 2 time world champion.
Dam is a 1 time World champion.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

That's Vega du HAUS Mansard. I may be a bit of a grammar/spelling nerd, due to being a former teacher, but if anyone doesn't take enough care with the ad to spell things correctly, it's a red flag to me, especially when they must have the original pedigree to copy from.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

She probably put Shiloh in the subject line so she gets more hits when people do on-line searches. 

Yeah, I'd run away from that breeder - wouldn't trust anything she said. 

Hip-health is not related to the lines. I've seen show-line breeders produce dogs for generation after generation with good hips, and seen poorly-bred working lines from byb with terrible hips. It comes down to finding a breeder who knows pedigrees and does their research. Even then it is not a sure thing, bad hips can happen even in the best of lines. 

I know you are looking for "just" a pet, but even "just" a pet needs to be healthy, sane, adaptable, and bomb-proof. So buying from a BYB is really a game of Russian roulette. Once you get over the sticker-shock, focus on breeders that: work, train, and title their own dogs - this allows them to REALLY know their dogs' strengths and weaknesses, and to make appropriate breeding decisions base on this knowledge. 

Breeders that may have just a few litters a year so they can raise the puppies themselves and observe them through their first 8-9 weeks of life. Spending time with the pups everyday ensures that they know the puppies individually, and can make appropriate matches with the new owners.

And in regards to the above, I would only recommend breeders that pick the puppy for you. What you want in a pup is very different than what I want, and the perfect puppy for you may be a dismal disappointment for me, and the perfect puppy for me, could be too much dog for you and your family. So be ready to be grilled by the breeder so they can really get to know you, your family, and what your expectations are, so they can make the best possible match. 

If you talk to a breeder and show interest in their puppies, they should be asking your as many, if not more questions as you are asking them. This often takes people by surprise, they didn't expect to be interrogated, and they feel offended that the breeder is not trusting them, but it is not a question of trust. It is a question of making good matches, so you are happy, your family is happy, and the dog grows up happy and well placed. 

Be ready to be on a waiting list. When puppy fever hits, it's dangerous!! But with good breeders not breeding that often so they can put in the time and effort to raise their litters properly, they may not have puppies available that often. Worth waiting though if you find a breeder that you trust to match you up well, and worth waiting for that perfect puppy that will fit seamlessly into your household. 

Also worth waiting for a good puppy from a good breeder for the life-long support they offer. Any questions, any issues, and call for help, and they will do their best. They still feel responsible for the welfare of that pup they placed with you, and they want you to be happy with this pup, so they are happy to help if you hit any rough patches.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> Thank you, I think the breeder means well and looking at the pedigree of the parents they do seem to have been imported from Europe and from good breeding backgrounds. I have not met them yet but judging by the name I don't think English is the first language and I think that may be causing some of the red flags that i'm getting from her.
> 
> CZAKO ze Skalnego Wzgorza
> SIRE: FELLO v. Hous Galli
> ...


I have to respectfully disagree, No German Shepherd Breeder worth anything (working line or show line) is going to suggest their dogs have anything to do with Shilo Shepherds. It is not a language problem.

At 0:49 of this video you will see a Real Wolf, about 7 months old at the time

And, none of the wolves…or bears owned by the trainer are ever bred to german shepherds or any other animal.

Anyway

Good luck in your search for a pup

Kim


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sire is 2x world champion - true. Vegas was the German Sieger in 2008 and again in 2009.
Dam is a 1x world champion - FALSE! Placing 48th in Germany's annual sieger show is NOT being a world champion!

Gina vom Zisawinkel

More lies... 

Rather embarrassed that I blew Vegas's name, especially after complaining about the person who placed the ad mis-spelling it: it's Vegas du Haut Mansard, not Haus Mansard. But so many German dogs have Haus in the name (means 'house')it was an easy mistake to make!


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Castlemaid said:


> She probably put Shiloh in the subject line so she gets more hits when people do on-line searches.
> 
> Yeah, I'd run away from that breeder - wouldn't trust anything she said.
> 
> ...


Thank you that is a great post full of good information!


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Sire is 2x world champion - true. Vegas was the German Sieger in 2008 and again in 2009.
> Dam is a 1x world champion - FALSE! Placing 48th in Germany's annual sieger show is NOT being a world champion!
> 
> Gina vom Zisawinkel
> ...


Thank you for that! Saying the dam is a world champion when the reality is a 48th place finish is a huge concern! I think there is just to many red flags, i'm going to pass on this breeder which is to bad because it seems like the quality of the dog is very good and probably from a line that would be great for us. But as mentioned in other posts I want a breeder who I can trust and help with issues down the road. THis one is acting like she's selling a used car lol.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Sire is 2x world champion - true. Vegas was the German Sieger in 2008 and again in 2009.
> Dam is a 1x world champion - FALSE! Placing 48th in Germany's annual sieger show is NOT being a world champion!
> 
> Gina vom Zisawinkel
> ...


 I just did a google image search on the pictures she has from her website which clearly says "our dogs" and they are all over pinterest.. they are not even her dogs!


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> I have to respectfully disagree, No German Shepherd Breeder worth anything (working line or show line) is going to suggest their dogs have anything to do with Shilo Shepherds. It is not a language problem.


Yes it seems like with this breeder she has high quality dogs but is using BYB tactics to sell them... is this common to find breeders doing this? She's the cheapest option of the 3 so it's surprising she has world champions in the pedigree!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> Yes it seems like with this breeder she has high quality dogs but is using BYB tactics to sell them... is this common to find breeders doing this? She's the cheapest option of the 3 so it's surprising she has world champions in the pedigree!


"seems like with this breeder she has high quality dogs but is using BYB tactics to sell them"

Really? Does that sentence make any sense to you? 

Do yourself a BIG Favor and Move on to some of the reputable breeders that have been suggested to you.


Kim


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> "seems like with this breeder she has high quality dogs but is using BYB tactics to sell them"
> 
> Really? Does that sentence make any sense to you?
> 
> ...


as mentioned above i've already done that. I'm just surprised at the level of dog she has.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Don't be surprised. Dogs with world champions in their pedigrees are a dime a dozen (really!!). A top sieger can be bred HUNDREDS of times - everyone wants a dog with a top champion in their pedigree, and the worst of the worst breeders will advertise "World Champion Pedigree" on their dog, even when the famous stud only appears three generations back. 

I would recommend you post in "Finding a Breeder" and mention what you are looking for, and your location. We have a number of very knowledgeable members here from the GTA who can point you in the right direction. 

While you wait for recommendations, here are a couple of websites to read through so you can be an educated buyer, and not be taken in by some fast-talking used-car, er, dog salesperson. 

There was a time when my dog knowledge was really basic - if I had at that point wanted a GSD, I would have picked up a newspaper and gone through the classifieds, found someone selling them for 200-300 dollars, gone to take a look, and picked out the cutest/biggest/smallest/most playful/differently colored one. After all, a dog is a dog is a dog, right? 

I joined this forum with about that level of knowledge. Once I understood how little I knew, I read and devoured everything I could get my hands on, and I'm proud to say, people's efforts to educate me have not been completely in vain.  

Two of my favorite GSD websites:

Excellent info:

German Shepherd Guide - Home

Breeder website with a ton of great articles that are worth their weight in gold. Also read the puppy info, purchase info, and the description of the breeding dogs to give you an idea of what a reputable breeder is all about. ANY good breeder SHOULD be able to talk about their dogs at this level of knowledge. 

(Wildhaus Kennels, Working German Shepherd Breeder in Michigan)


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Thank you i'll look into those links! this sure is overwhelming!

I do see world champion mentioned a lot now that you mention it!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> as mentioned above i've already done that. I'm just surprised at the level of dog she has.


Okay, I'll bite....what level of dog does she have? Do you know for a fact that she even owns the dogs pictured? Lots of so called breeders use other peoples pictures, and the pictures I have seen so far leave a lot to be desired. 

If you are dead set on a Black & Tan show line then contact Rebecca at Aus Gerstbrei: German Shepherd Breeders in Michigan, Breeders of Highest quality German Shepherds in Michigan.German Shepherd breeders Michigan, German Shepherd puppies for sale, German Shepherd puppies in Michigan, Best German Shepherd Breeders, Ger

She actually breeds, raises and trains some of the nicest show line dogs in North America....in my opinion.


Kim


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

One drawback to shopping for puppies by looking at puppies, online or even in person is that they're aren't very many that aren't so cute that you just want one right now. Are there any breeders or clubs you can go visit and see adult dogs that are being bred?


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> One drawback to shopping for puppies by looking at puppies, online or even in person is that they're aren't very many that aren't so cute that you just want one right now. Are there any breeders or clubs you can go visit and see adult dogs that are being bred?


We are going to see some pups tomorrow. I believe it was the second breeder in my post back on the first page. 

I'm just going to go with my gut feeling when I meet them. This entire process is stressing me out to much haha, I've done so much research my head is spinning haha.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

2nd or the first one, with the female czech puppies?


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> 2nd or the first one, with the female czech puppies?


female czech puppies. They are very well known breeders for cows, look to be fairly new to GSD. They imported the dogs. We are going to meet them tomorrow afternoon so i've been doing a lot of research on what to look for, etc. The pups are older though at 14 weeks and 13 weeks. 

Bak - signature | farms
Karcoolka Hexer - signature | farms


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

See if they'll let you meet the sire and dam so you'll have an idea of what the pups will likely grow into. For sure the dam, even if its away from the pups. It wouldn't be terrible if they aren't comfortable with the sire being introduced to strangers on their property, but I'd like to see mom and how social she is. If neither of them is good with strangers, keep that in mind for what type of pup this could be. 

I'd look for a confident, curious pup. I don't want the tentative, shy one that you look at and think, awwwww. That's the one I'd need a pretty knowledgeable breeder with more then one generation of pups to tell my why she'll be good. Not someone new to shepherds.


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> See if they'll let you meet the sire and dam so you'll have an idea of what the pups will likely grow into. For sure the dam, even if its away from the pups. It wouldn't be terrible if they aren't comfortable with the sire being introduced to strangers on their property, but I'd like to see mom and how social she is. If neither of them is good with strangers, keep that in mind for what type of pup this could be.
> 
> I'd look for a confident, curious pup. I don't want the tentative, shy one that you look at and think, awwwww. That's the one I'd need a pretty knowledgeable breeder with more then one generation of pups to tell my why she'll be good. Not someone new to shepherds.


Thanks Steve! She may not even be new to Shepherds, i'm just assuming that. 

She did say that both animals are onsite and can be seen. I did however read the opposite with the working lines. The confident curious pup with no fear is the one that might make a good police dog while the shy one might be more apt to be a nice family pet. I'll be asking a lot of questions tomorrow that's for sure!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Never mind what people say about police dogs in this context tenny. The drives in these pups will probably be fairly similar, its the nerves that may not be. The confident one is the one that can adapt and do most of the things you're looking for. Kids ball games maybe not, but all the other things you mentioned, the confident dog has the nerves to be able to. The shy one, maybe. I'd really have to be able to believe what the breeder tells me about how that'll change, and for the most part that comes from experience with a pretty good amount of their own dogs. 

The shy one, tentative, not looking to explore or pushy and curious about why you're there, maybe she'd turn out fine, but I'd put a lot more faith in the out going one.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

tenny you are in much too much of a rush 

that breeder that you will be visiting might not know "dogs" , never mind knowing GSD .

anyone can import -- 

to this "The confident curious pup with no fear is the one that might make a good police dog while the shy one might be more apt to be a nice family pet."

no way .

the rush is to get a dog sort of this week to fit into holiday time -- and although that is nice because you will have all that time with the pup --- you are asking for the dog to switch from his litter-home, switch to an expectation and schedule which is short lived and then be switched again to the reality when you go back to work.

with these dogs being older you may want to make very sure that they have been well socialized --

good luck


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> It looks like Breeder number 1 is Wendelin Farm in Ontario? They have some very nice pups, I can say this because I am currently working with 2 different pups from that kennel.


it was indeed from Wendelin Farm! We met with 3 breeders today in what was a very long day! This breeder turned out to be far away the best. We put a deposit down and will have our new pup on Tuesday  

They had 2 separate litters. Before meeting the dog the man suggested we look at 2 pups in particular that he thought would be good for us. The 6 pups come running out and the 2 pups he mentioned stuck to us the entire time. The other 4 had a very very high drive. They would come visit with us, take a quick pet and then be gone playing again. The 2 he recommended would lay down, let us pet them, etc. He said the Mom is very people oriented and rides with him on the tractor all day, never leaves his side haha. We met the Mom and Dad and they are both super friendly, great dogs!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> it was indeed from Wendelin Farm! We met with 3 breeders today in what was a very long day! This breeder turned out to be far away the best. We put a deposit down and will have our new pup on Tuesday
> 
> They had 2 separate litters. Before meeting the dog the man suggested we look at 2 pups in particular that he thought would be good for us. The 6 pups come running out and the 2 pups he mentioned stuck to us the entire time. The other 4 had a very very high drive. They would come visit with us, take a quick pet and then be gone playing again. The 2 he recommended would lay down, let us pet them, etc. He said the Mom is very people oriented and rides with him on the tractor all day, never leaves his side haha. We met the Mom and Dad and they are both super friendly, great dogs!


For what it is worth, I think you made a good choice.

Good luck and be prepared to have a great journey with your new pup.


Kim


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Congratulations. I hope you enjoy him-her?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that was fast !

did you visit your option #1 ? the web site shows Signature Farms 

I thought Wendelin was in Quebec . 
Don't see those names Karcoolka hexer X Bak Z Kralické!!
anywhere on the Wendelin web site https://www.wendelinfarm.com/german-shepherds

A friend of mine does have a Wendelin dog His father is Quardes Von der Staasmacht and mother is Bacardi Herodesova Domu


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Congratulations. I hope you enjoy him-her?


Her


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## tenny80 (Aug 12, 2017)

carmspack said:


> that was fast !
> 
> did you visit your option #1 ? the web site shows Signature Farms
> 
> ...


https://www.wendelinfarm.com/karcoolka

Wendelin is in Quebec, the Mom is from Wendelin, who imported her which I believe is how Kim recognized her as being from them. 

They have some training videos they did with her on there website: 




The breeder is Signature Farms who bought her from them as an adult. They had a litter with her then sold her to Signature Farms, sorry for the confusion.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

tenny80 said:


> https://www.wendelinfarm.com/karcoolka
> 
> Wendelin is in Quebec, the Mom is from Wendelin, who imported her which I believe is how Kim recognized her as being from them.
> 
> ...



*You have nothing to apologize for or apologies owed to anyone!*

Have a great time with you pup, if I can help answer any questions you have in the future feel free to e-mail me at home.

- *And for the Record,* I have no Dog in this Hunt. My experience with the Breeders is limited to working with 2 different dogs from their kennel and speaking with them via e-mail. As well as reading other trusted peoples reviews of them.

I'm a Breeder, my friend Tony Nikl of Canczech Dogs is a Breeder, one of the pups recently seen in a video I posted is available.....yet at no time did I try and sell a pup to the original poster. 

The original poster is in Ontario Canada, and asked for some simple suggestions about Breeders in Ontario, Canada!

And I simply suggested a Breeder that I feel is Honest, Trustworthy and backs up their promises.

Give that some thought folks.

Character, is what you are in the Dark


Kim
British Columbia, Canada


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