# Are your dogs already good watch dogs?



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Lately she has been territorial and protective. I love it! She just turned 5 months old today.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I doubt that at 5 months she is being protective/territorial at all. What is she doing that makes you think this?


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i am not sure if i fully agree, i think some dogs really do start to show themselves at that age, just talking from my own experience. my 5mo pups like to go nuts at that age just like their moms did. most likely fear based but whatever, a watchdog is to alert, doesn't really matter what the motivation is, it all comes out the same.


----------



## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

I bet it is derived from fear. I wouldn't reinforce a fearful behavior. I protect my pup he doesn't protect me.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Most likely it has to do with fear / temperament or no adequate socialization. A five month old is not protective. To me it is a sign to up her good experiences in the real world and get her out as often as you can.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

is fear not just protectig ones self or immeadiatte pack? that is still protective.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrs.P said:


> I protect my pup he doesn't protect me.


Couldn't agree more!


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

x11 said:


> is fear not just protectig ones self or immeadiatte pack? that is still protective.


Not when, generally, the "fear response" when something truly does put pressure on the dog, is flight. I would bet a lot of money I could make the dog run, and I am a smaller female. Of course if I backed him into a corner, he'd bite, but it'd probably be a run up, nip, and retreat. 

Of course this is just an internet assumption. I have never met the dog, nor do I know his genetic nerve base. But, strong, stable, balanced nerved dogs, are few and far between these days in the States. 

Regardless, a five month old puppy should be playfully happy about the world, building confidence, and put in situations it can ONLY win in. Lots of ***proper socialization, with older neutral dogs, and shown that it's owner is leader and protector, that it does not have to worry about anything because it's owner has it's back. Just my humble opinion.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

A true protection dog is never fearful. Fear is not a good foundation for protection as they are unpredictable. The best protectors are the ones who are not afraid of anything. Then you can rely on them but only if needed.
Check with the Schutzhund people


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

a 5 month old puppy is not being protective or territorial. Its a fear response.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

OP, your and my definition of "protection" is probably different. To me, a dog that can "protect" is mature, calm, and hard. No situation can really "rock" the dog. He can work through pressure with his defensive drives, calmly. Any dog can bark and alert. A protective dog will calmly assess a situation, no hackles, no growling, no barking, no lunging. Just assess the situation and only when deemed dangerous, does he act, usually only to the needed extent (ie doesn't bite when a warning bark will do). Again, there is no frantic behavior, no shifty eyes/hackles/etc, and this can all happen in a matter of seconds. 

Frantically barking, jumping around, hackles raised, whining, lunging, ESPECIALLY at a complete non-threat (told to the dog by my body language and/or command), is NOT protection, TO ME.

Others consider what I described in the last paragraph protection, all the more power to you. But, your dog will run if someone does break into your house and gives him a good kick to the face. Chances are he will run away yipping and hide. What IS very likely if this type of behavior is reinforced is a dog that will bite a non-threat. 

I do not agree with people who say, "my dog goes nuts when I am at the gas station/fast food place/park and the gas attendent/employee approaches(or simply walks by) the car, he's protective of my car/house/property." To ME that is not PROPER protection, that is fear based, frantic, mis-placed, aggression....NOT something I would encourage or brag about. He is being aggressive to NON threats. 

I guess what I am saying is, protection is a culmination of a lot of things, aggression, nerve, fear, biting, etc...the question isn't "is it protection," to me, the question is, "is it proper protection behavior, and what are your expectations of your dog?" If you just want a dog that alerts you, than, mis-placed, fear, aggression, is fine. Your dog will alert you. Your expectations of this dog should not be to attack someone in a "burglary/threatening" situation. The dog will, most likely use "flight" at the first given opportunity. He will possibly display forward flight, and may bite if cornered, but will not be defensive THROUGH pressure (kicking, yelling, hitting, shooting, etc).


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> A true protection dog is *never fearful*. Fear is not a good foundation for protection as they are unpredictable. The best protectors are the ones who are not afraid of anything. Then you can rely on them but only if needed.
> *Check with the Schutzhund people*


the only living thing that is not fearful under a perceived or real threat is the psychotic who is of no use to its species. 

i got that from a viet-vet who won a medal for bravery in combat. 


"*Check with the Schutzhund people"* are you serious??


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> A true protection dog is never fearful. Fear is not a good foundation for protection as they are unpredictable.


Agree.


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

I never says she was hostile. She is just very curious of the outside world. She has already defended me before.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Goodness - why in the world would anyone ever want a baby to pretend to protect one self! 

What terrible habits of behavior is this creating?

My adult male will and had protected but a 5mo puppy?

Would anyone want their 3yo son (or daughter) to protect them as well?


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Any dog can bark and alert. A protective dog will calmly assess a situation, no hackles, no growling, no barking, no lunging. Just assess the situation and only when deemed dangerous, does he act, usually only to the needed extent (ie doesn't bite when a warning bark will do). Again, there is no frantic behavior, no shifty eyes/hackles/etc, and this can all happen in a matter of seconds.


 
cant disagree with any of that in theory except that it sounds like the typical BS hype that executive protection dog peddlers run their mouth and their websites about - huge lack of these dogs and handlers around when it comes to proving time, there is just lots of excuses.

i might add the OP's dog is 5mo, so yr description of courage is talking about nothing to do with this thread.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

"*Check with the Schutzhund people"* are you serious??[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? Yes, steer clear of those that are training their dogs in THE test for PROPER protective instincts in the German Shepherd Dog.  I can't tell you how many breeders have brought their un-titled GSDs, to a sch club, bragging about solid nerve, balanced drives, etc..and then when the pressure was LIGHTLY put on their dogs (eye contact, puffing cheeks, forward pressure by the helper), the dogs showed total avoidance, hid behind the handler, or tried to run off the field....

I guarantee you, most Sch people would NOT expect their dog to get into a fight for them. And their dogs are trained to handle it, and their instincts, properly.

Again, I think your idea of protection and fear is just very different than mine. To each their own.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> the only living thing that is not fearful under a perceived or real threat is the psychotic who is of no use to its species.
> 
> i got that from a viet-vet who won a medal for bravery in combat.
> 
> ...


 
Speaking as a VV, one can define fear in terms of behavior not as a feeling!

True bravery involves acting bravely in the presence of true (or perceived) fear.

A dog facing off with a bear or wolf or bad guy to protect it's owner of course would prefer to be elsewhere; BUT will defend to the best of it'e ability in spite of that fear.

A dog we classify as "Fearful" is one who ACTS fearful!


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

codmaster said:


> Goodness - why in the world would anyone ever want a baby to *pretend* to protect one self!
> 
> Would anyone want their 3yo son (or daughter) to protect them as well?


And be set up to fail.

I have an army of three year old children to protect me lol.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

codmaster said:


> A dog we classify as "Fearful" is one who ACTS fearful!


this is where i have problems with the words, if the action comes out the same ie attacks the sugar out of the threat and neutralises it, what does it matter how WE percieve the motivation for that action, the threat has been eleiminated, if it was a clam full grip or a slashing staccato attack- really what does it matter you/it survived??


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

EmeryGSD said:


> I never says she was hostile. She is just very curious of the outside world. She has already defended me before.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Wow, that's young to defend. Mind explaining the situation, I am genuinely interested.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

x11 said:


> this is where i have problems with the words, if the action comes out the same ie attacks the sugar out of the threat and neutralises it, what does it matter how WE percieve the motivation for that action, the threat has been eleiminated, if it was a clam full grip or a slashing staccato attack- really what does it matter you/it survived??


But what they are saying is that a fearful dog will not attack when challenged.
It will run away.
Either that, or go around barking at, attacking or biting everything in sight, no matter if it is a threat or not.

As for your Vietnam veteran quote, what is missing is that true bravery is recognizing that you are fearful, but facing your fear with confidence.


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

x11 said:


> this is where i have problems with the words, if the action comes out the same ie attacks the sugar out of the threat and neutralises it, what does it matter how WE percieve the motivation for that action, the threat has been eleiminated, if it was a clam full grip or a slashing staccato attack- really what does it matter you/it survived??


Well if the sugar was not neutral to begin with(please explain this)...well, I want some of that sugar...

Do you not see the complete flaw in your example and logic? When would a bag of sugar be threatening?? And it is IMPERATIVE that the dog respect and listen to how WE perceive the threat...otherwise you have a dog that attacks an old lady because she has a walker that the dog is "scared of" and perceiving it as a threat. 

Your logic is just blowing my mind lol. You honestly do not understand that there is proper times/places for aggression? And that a dog NEEDS to know the difference between threat and non-threat (according to us)?


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Wow, that's young to defend. Mind explaining the situation, I am genuinely interested.


My mother inlaw came at me freaked out by god knows what. She stood in front of me, literally backed me off and barked her head off at her. Once my mom calmed down emery came to me and just licked me. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

I don't reinforce it either. You guys throw words out of nowhere. Never did I say it was okay. But I am glad she is a great little lookout. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

She is very social just so we get that clear! My god.. You guys have no idea what I meant.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

Lets get 1 thing straight. She defended me once and is alert to everything! She fears nothing so stopped assuming that! I know my pup.. If she was scared she would tuck her tail and run.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

EmeryGSD said:


> My mother inlaw came at me freaked out by god knows what. She stood in front of me, literally backed me off and barked her head off at her. Once my mom calmed down emery came to me and just licked me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would have stopped that, but that's just me. I would have put my boy in a down stay, and continued talking to my mother-in-law, because I was handling the situation and wouldn't want him, especially at a young age, to think he can EVER step in when I am handling something. But, that's JUST me. She is your dog. 

She sounds like a sweet dog. Take lots of pics, they grow up super fast .


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> *Well if the sugar was not neutral to begin with(please explain this)...well, I want some of that sugar*...
> 
> not sure what you are asking here?? you know sugar was just a random word cos certain words are banned here, sorry i don't get yr question here.
> 
> ...


 
please see inside quote box.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

X11, Would you care if the dog arced up right quick and mauled or killed a child?


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

EmeryGSD said:


> I don't reinforce it either. You guys throw words out of nowhere. Never did I say it was okay. But I am glad she is a great little lookout.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


By not stepping in and stopping your PUPPY from trying to handle a situation she deemed you unable to handle, you reinforced it. If you want a dog that does this, that's FINE, like I said, she's your dog. But NOT doing anything, IS reinforcing. Just wanted to point that out.

And you posted to a GSD forum, full of GSD enthusiasts that are extremely passionate and some that are VERY knowledgeable about dogs in general and the GSD in particular. You are not going to get all rainbows and unicorns, especially when you talk about aggression in a puppy that you are reinforcing. Sorry, I really don't mean this in a mean way. 

Fear aggression is a hot topic around here. There are SOOO many posts by owners that reinforced this behavior now, and then when the puppy matures they can't handle it and want to re-home the dog. It's hard for people around here because most of the issues would be non-issues if they were taken care of in the puppy stages. So my apologies that it is coming off as harsh. Just take a step back and think about the frustration members have on here with watching the same pattern over and over. 

I am NOT saying your dog is going to be some fear-aggressive, problem-dog, that you have to re-home later. I am just saying, maybe not eloquently enough, there are LOTS of little things that can be done during the puppy stage to produce, neutral, calm, strong, adult dogs. So many people (myself included until I was "schooled" lol) are so excited for the adult, protective, aloof, awesome GSD, that their expectations are EXTREMELY high for their immature, baby, puppy. And the high expectations give the puppy and un-stable foundation.

Again, sorry if it came off harshly. I truly believe you have a great dog there, and know what you're doing. I attached an AWESOME article(if I did it right) that explains all the different drives/temperaments in the GSD. It's a great read


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

x11 said:


> please see inside quote box.


....but it's a NON threat...you are teaching your dog that he should get worked up over everything, essentially....that poor dog. Interesting, training. I'm assuming you live alone with your dog, hopefully? Keep it that way, good luck.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

not teaching to get worked up over everything - dogs are not stupid as it would seem most people think, they are really good imo of retaining pictures of what is normal and what is not, it all about what pictures you install in the pup's world as to what they will and won't react to. 

and yes i do live alone with my dogs in a rural area with few visitors.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> X11, Would you care if the dog arced up right quick and mauled or killed a child?


that question is offensive sun. and i always had you pegged as a nice and reasonable person...what??


----------



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

x11 said:


> they are really good imo of retaining pictures of what is normal and what is not, it all about what pictures you install in the pup's world as to what they will and won't react to.
> 
> *Interesting opinion, and no one said they were stupid. And you said anytime your dog hackles up (or whatever defensive/protective behavior he's exhibiting) you encourage it.....that does match up with your picture theory....unless you mean EVERYTHING the dog sees you want him to have a picture in his mind of "that was something my master wants me to hackle/be aggressive towards, because last time I was rewarded." They are animals that need training. I will teach my dog not to react AT ALL to non-threats (my perception). Guess we'll agree to disagree. I just like my dog to not stress un-necessarily...to each their own.*
> 
> and yes i do live alone with my dogs in a rural area with few visitors.


* Have a nice night.*


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

x11 said:


> that question is offensive sun. and i always had you pegged as a nice and reasonable person...what??


I am honestly wondering.
Maybe it is my shortcoming that I honestly don't understand what you're saying.
I thought you said that as long as a dog is reactive, you don't care why.
And I don't get it.
Because when I think of a fearful dog, I think of one that is not balanced and can't discern between someone it should actually attack and someone that shouldn't be attacked. 
Am I making any sense? It's late I should get off this forum and get some sleep...


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

yeah nice night, but i said i "encouraged" something????


have you seen any vids of my boy, i have put about 30 of them up here, he is the real deal.


response to dani last post.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> this is where i have problems with the words, if the action comes out the same ie attacks the sugar out of the threat and neutralises it, what does it matter how WE percieve the motivation for that action, the threat has been eleiminated, if it was a clam full grip or a slashing staccato attack- really what does it matter you/it survived??


 
Mabe it would help you understand if you read about the 
"Fight or Flight" response. Google it and try and see if it helps you understand the difference.

And think about a "nip and run" action by your fearful acting dog.

I.E. even a rabbit will try to fight back if it feels cornered, but do you want to depend on your pet rabbit to protect you?


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> I am honestly wondering.
> Maybe it is my shortcoming that I honestly don't understand what you're saying.
> I thought you said that as long as a dog is reactive, you don't care why.
> And I don't get it.
> ...


 
my personal theory is that what makes the herders so useful for protection type roles is that they are by nature a fundamentally thinner nerved than say a bull dog type. 

i tried understanding from a dog's point of view what is going on in their heads but am lousy at it and i think most people delude themselves thinking they know what their dog is thinking if dog's even "think" in the conventional sense of the word - i have settled for a pavlovian approach in that i do not understand what the dog is or isn't thinking but i know how they learn and i have leraned to exploit that to good effect.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Best protection (real ones who would give it all for their owners) dogs i have ever seen (both GSD and other breeds) were extremely balanced almost gentle dogs unless they perceived a real threat. You would never know that they were trained to fight and protect.

Almost a gentle dog other than that! Trusted around kids and strangers etc.

One was a true working police K9 dog who lived with the family in a typical suberb home with three kids and many friends coming over all the time.

Another was a many times ScH3 top protection score dog (including the German Seiger show) while a third was a Great Dane trained very nicely as a rich familly's PPD (who liked to share the couch with a visitor!).

BTW, none were FA dogs!


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Mabe it would help you understand if you read about the
> "Fight or Flight" response. Google it and try and see if it helps you understand the difference.
> 
> And think about a "nip and run" action by your fearful acting dog.
> ...


codmaster, try get to e-know my dog, i post enough about him, his actions will speak for my understanding - when you see my dog albeit in a short clip do you really think he is a dog yr going to walk thru in a hurry, really?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I agree with you that we can't read their minds. All we can read is their behavior. 

If a dog is afraid of something that it shouldn't be afraid of, then we say they have weak nerves. For example if you are walking along and an old lady shows up with a cane and the dog barks and hackles up, that should not be encouraged.

Do you agree with that?


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

codmaster said:


> Goodness - why in the world would anyone ever want a baby to pretend to protect one self!
> 
> What terrible habits of behavior is this creating?
> 
> ...


Never did I say I wanted her too.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## EmeryGSD (Mar 8, 2013)

If any admin read this please have this thread removed.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> codmaster, try get to e-know my dog, i post enough about him, his actions will speak for my understanding - when you see my dog albeit in a short clip do you really think he is a dog yr going to *walk thru in a hurry*, really?


 
Yes, wouldn't be too hard with a single dog! Esp if he is a FA dog (like you seem to advocate teaching a dog to be).

BTW, how would you teach your FA dog who you seem to want also to react to everything and "Hackle Up", NOT to react to a non threat innocent person/situation?

Or maybe you don't know about the great "watch dog" who is so protective that he/she has to be locked up when people come over to the house?


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i agree in my context, no old ladies will ever be a problem, others in other contexts may have grounds to disagree. again where did i use the word encourage??


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You didn't use that word, I did. Have a great night--good discussing with ya.


----------



## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

codmaster said:


> Yes, wouldn't be too hard with a single dog! Esp if he is a FA dog (like you seem to advocate teaching a dog to be).
> 
> BTW, how would you teach your FA dog who you seem to want also to react to everything and "Hackle Up", NOT to react to a non threat innocent person/situation?
> 
> Or maybe you don't know about the great "watch dog" who is so protective that he/she has to be locked up when people come over to the house?


i think all working dogs should be locked away from the public period, a pet is a pet, a working dog is a working dog, goes for every working dog from timid stockdog to friendly hog-hound to police k09. all my peers think and live with their dogs that way.

ok you would walk straight thru my dog, i guess we will have to leave that as speculation at least in a fair battle. i would truly like to know the answer to that tho, i got the money my dog.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

x11 said:


> *i think all working dogs should be locked away from the public period,* a pet is a pet, a working dog is a working dog, goes for every working dog from timid stockdog to friendly hog-hound to police k09. all *my peers* think and live with their dogs that way.
> 
> ok you would walk straight thru my dog, i guess we will have to leave that as speculation at least in a fair battle. i would truly like to know the answer to that tho, *i got the money my dog.[/*QUOTE] Not sure what you mean here!!!!
> 
> ...


----------



## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

x11 said:


> i think all working dogs should be locked away from the public period, a pet is a pet, a working dog is a working dog, goes for every working dog from timid stockdog to friendly hog-hound to police k09. all my peers think and live with their dogs that way.
> .


 
Why would you do that to a working dog? They deserve the same socialization with humans as pet dogs. Some of the best K-9 Officers I've ever worked around were treated as a "pets" when they were off duty; they went to PetCo, hikes on busy trails, and went to visit kids at schools. The worst ones were the ones who were kept away from anyone and everyone. They were reactive to everything on two feet because their only interraction with humans outside their handlers was during "attack mode" (I use that term very loosely) 

It baffles me when people lock their dogs away because they are "working dogs". What are you going to do when the dog can no longer work? Just leave the dog locked up all day, only going out when no one else is around? What a lonely life for that poor pup.

To the OP: I doubt the dog was showing true protective characteristcs. They can feel when situations are getting tense and the raised voices between the two of you. The reaction was to that, not so much as a protective mode. I wouldn't have let that continue, but that is just me, but I wouldn't want my dog to take raised voices as an immediate threat...but as I said, that's just me.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x11 said:


> i think all working dogs should be locked away from the public period, a pet is a pet, a working dog is a working dog, goes for every working dog from timid stockdog to friendly hog-hound to police k09. all my peers think and live with their dogs that way.
> 
> ok you would walk straight thru my dog, i guess we will have to leave that as speculation at least in a fair battle. i would truly like to know the answer to that tho, i got the money my dog.


A working dog needs to be socialized the right away so that it knows what is a threat and what is a non threat. No one wants a dog that barks at everything or trusts nothing. Most people want a dog that will alert/bark when needed, otherwise one would never know if something is wrong. My dog picks/chooses what she barks at, hardly barks at all. She is silent in the car, on walks, etc, but when she does bark I pay attention because that isn't normal for her and I know something isn't right..Does that make sense?


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

11 weeks today, totally fearless and gets in front of me and barks at anything that moves! he does love people... just not ducks and other small animals. 

also heard someone at the door and took off barking... I am impressed =)


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Neko said:


> 11 weeks today, totally fearless and gets in front of me and barks at anything that moves! he does love people... just not ducks and other small animals.
> 
> also heard someone at the door and took off barking... I am impressed =)


 
He is showing all the signs of being fearful not fearless. If your dog is barking for example at a leaf blowing its because he doesn't know what it is and the unknown scares everybody. Once you bring your puppy to the leave and he realizes that its harmless his reaction will complete change to play..because now he knows.


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

lol hackles dont always mean fear I have seen shepherds hackle and baby bunnies they can't get to at fences.

In protection when back tied shepherds dont usually hackle. But when behind their fence and cant get to the threat they might out of frustration and being so aroused. It can just be they are so hyped up. They are such complex creatures. People here are just quick to say things are fear when it really means the dog is just very serious. Dogs that are fearful dont do pp work like that.

Ive seen x11 dog videos i would put any money on his dog mauling a person when they enter his turf hackle or no hackle that dog is gonna bite hard. Maybe not as hard as my bitch tho :shocked:


----------

