# What line does she look like?



## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Hey all I was wondering if you guys could tell me what my girl looks like, attached is my most recent picture of her (7 and a half months).










also here are her mom right, dad top, and uncle bottom left









Any information or opinions on what line her parents or her look like would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Her height, face and body shape look American, but she doesn't have the low slope. Maybe a mix of types? How is the uncle related to her? He looks Working line.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

The uncle is the mothers littermate. She looks a lot like her mother in my opinion in the face. They seem very slim-faced for GSD, and I'm not sure of what that indicates. She almost has a coyote looking head to me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would guess American showline x pet line.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Okay well thanks. I probably shouldn't have started this thread because it doesn't really matter. She's a great dog and has an insanely good focus, and she'll probably get just as good/better training than a lot of "well bred" dogs. I don't see her as having any of the traits of what is called "pet line" that I looked up.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

What is wrong with pet lines? I have owned some really nice pet lines and have met some really nice ones as well.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Well this is the only information I can find on pet lines, and it doesn't seem very nice.

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

"American "Pet" Lines

There is a subset of the American dogs bred as pets, usually by pet owners rather than knowledgeable breeders, that are often referred to as "Back-yard Breeders"(BYB). These are dogs that descend from American show lines, occasionally with some European lines mixed in, but are a generation or two, or more, removed from responsible American show line breeding. They are bred by people in their homes and backyards (hence the name) who have all the wrong reasons for breeding; puppies would be fun, the kids could experience the miracle of life, easy way to make a few dollars, and the list goes on. Not only do they usually not title or health screen their breeding stock, in most cases they aren't even aware these things exist, much less their importance. They know nothing about bloodlines or pedigrees, though they'll often advertise their puppies in the newspaper as "champion lines", and they don't care to. They will breed to a dog owned by a friend, family member, neighbor, or someone they meet on the street because it is easy, cheap and convenient.

Most of these breeders aren't bad people, and they don't set out to produce substandard dogs. They do so out of complete ignorance of what it takes to be a responsible breeder, and the importance of thoroughly testing the health and temperament of breeding stock, and a lack of interest in educating themselves on those issues. Many actually believe that being AKC registered or having a champion or two several generations back in the pedigree makes for a quality, breedworthy animal. But while they may not intend to produce dogs with poor health and temperament, that is often the result.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of German Shepherds in North America are this type. And this is the single greatest reason for the poor reputation the German Shepherd had gained in recent years. Dogs bred by people who do not understand the breed, don't test their dogs' health and temperament, and are breeding only for themselves instead of for the betterment of the breed, are an accident waiting to happen. Many these dogs are soft, nervous, spooky, prone to separation anxiety and other behavioral problems, and weak in character. Some so much so that they are dangerous fear biters. Though on the flip side many of them are very soundly temperamented, healthy and well structured dogs that more closely resemble the American line dogs of decades past than the modern version. But when this happens it is due to a tremendous stroke of good luck in playing the genetic lottery, not the result of dedication, study, planning and informed breeding decisions. 

If the American version of the German Shepherd appeals to you, make sure to go to a responsible American show line breeder who is active in the breed as a whole, and who thoroughly health screens and strives to prove intelligence, trainability, sound nerve and stable temperament in their breeding stock by also participating and titling in performance events, not just conformation showing.

Never get a dog from a Backyard Breeder. This is nothing but a game of Russian Roulette. Dogs from responsible breeders may cost more initially, but that is minimal compared to the vet and training fees that can accumulate due to health and temperament problems, a lawsuit caused by a dangerous dog, and the heartache that accompanies both.American "Pet" Lines

There is a subset of the American dogs bred as pets, usually by pet owners rather than knowledgeable breeders, that are often referred to as "Back-yard Breeders"(BYB). These are dogs that descend from American show lines, occasionally with some European lines mixed in, but are a generation or two, or more, removed from responsible American show line breeding. They are bred by people in their homes and backyards (hence the name) who have all the wrong reasons for breeding; puppies would be fun, the kids could experience the miracle of life, easy way to make a few dollars, and the list goes on. Not only do they usually not title or health screen their breeding stock, in most cases they aren't even aware these things exist, much less their importance. They know nothing about bloodlines or pedigrees, though they'll often advertise their puppies in the newspaper as "champion lines", and they don't care to. They will breed to a dog owned by a friend, family member, neighbor, or someone they meet on the street because it is easy, cheap and convenient.

Most of these breeders aren't bad people, and they don't set out to produce substandard dogs. They do so out of complete ignorance of what it takes to be a responsible breeder, and the importance of thoroughly testing the health and temperament of breeding stock, and a lack of interest in educating themselves on those issues. Many actually believe that being AKC registered or having a champion or two several generations back in the pedigree makes for a quality, breedworthy animal. But while they may not intend to produce dogs with poor health and temperament, that is often the result.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of German Shepherds in North America are this type. And this is the single greatest reason for the poor reputation the German Shepherd had gained in recent years. Dogs bred by people who do not understand the breed, don't test their dogs' health and temperament, and are breeding only for themselves instead of for the betterment of the breed, are an accident waiting to happen. Many these dogs are soft, nervous, spooky, prone to separation anxiety and other behavioral problems, and weak in character. Some so much so that they are dangerous fear biters. Though on the flip side many of them are very soundly temperamented, healthy and well structured dogs that more closely resemble the American line dogs of decades past than the modern version. But when this happens it is due to a tremendous stroke of good luck in playing the genetic lottery, not the result of dedication, study, planning and informed breeding decisions. 

If the American version of the German Shepherd appeals to you, make sure to go to a responsible American show line breeder who is active in the breed as a whole, and who thoroughly health screens and strives to prove intelligence, trainability, sound nerve and stable temperament in their breeding stock by also participating and titling in performance events, not just conformation showing.

Never get a dog from a Backyard Breeder. This is nothing but a game of Russian Roulette. Dogs from responsible breeders may cost more initially, but that is minimal compared to the vet and training fees that can accumulate due to health and temperament problems, a lawsuit caused by a dangerous dog, and the heartache that accompanies both.American "Pet" Lines

There is a subset of the American dogs bred as pets, usually by pet owners rather than knowledgeable breeders, that are often referred to as "Back-yard Breeders"(BYB). These are dogs that descend from American show lines, occasionally with some European lines mixed in, but are a generation or two, or more, removed from responsible American show line breeding. They are bred by people in their homes and backyards (hence the name) who have all the wrong reasons for breeding; puppies would be fun, the kids could experience the miracle of life, easy way to make a few dollars, and the list goes on. Not only do they usually not title or health screen their breeding stock, in most cases they aren't even aware these things exist, much less their importance. They know nothing about bloodlines or pedigrees, though they'll often advertise their puppies in the newspaper as "champion lines", and they don't care to. They will breed to a dog owned by a friend, family member, neighbor, or someone they meet on the street because it is easy, cheap and convenient.

Most of these breeders aren't bad people, and they don't set out to produce substandard dogs. They do so out of complete ignorance of what it takes to be a responsible breeder, and the importance of thoroughly testing the health and temperament of breeding stock, and a lack of interest in educating themselves on those issues. Many actually believe that being AKC registered or having a champion or two several generations back in the pedigree makes for a quality, breedworthy animal. But while they may not intend to produce dogs with poor health and temperament, that is often the result.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of German Shepherds in North America are this type. And this is the single greatest reason for the poor reputation the German Shepherd had gained in recent years. Dogs bred by people who do not understand the breed, don't test their dogs' health and temperament, and are breeding only for themselves instead of for the betterment of the breed, are an accident waiting to happen. Many these dogs are soft, nervous, spooky, prone to separation anxiety and other behavioral problems, and weak in character. Some so much so that they are dangerous fear biters. Though on the flip side many of them are very soundly temperamented, healthy and well structured dogs that more closely resemble the American line dogs of decades past than the modern version. But when this happens it is due to a tremendous stroke of good luck in playing the genetic lottery, not the result of dedication, study, planning and informed breeding decisions. 

If the American version of the German Shepherd appeals to you, make sure to go to a responsible American show line breeder who is active in the breed as a whole, and who thoroughly health screens and strives to prove intelligence, trainability, sound nerve and stable temperament in their breeding stock by also participating and titling in performance events, not just conformation showing.

Never get a dog from a Backyard Breeder. This is nothing but a game of Russian Roulette. Dogs from responsible breeders may cost more initially, but that is minimal compared to the vet and training fees that can accumulate due to health and temperament problems, a lawsuit caused by a dangerous dog, and the heartache that accompanies both."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thanks for posting that, it was an interesting read. What is it that you don't like about what you read?



Niexist said:


> Well this is the only information I can find on pet lines, and it doesn't seem very nice.
> 
> (Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )
> 
> ...


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

It makes them out like they're stupid shifty dangerous versions of show line.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Niexist said:


> It makes them out like they're stupid shifty dangerous versions of show line.


I read it to say it can go either way.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

She looks to have the face of a female Mal, and the colors of a GSD. With a nice straight back. As far as the "pet line" thing goes, the way I see it is this: There are MILLIONS of dogs that come from shelters every single year that are so called "pet lines". Whether it be labs, pits, gsd's, mutts, crosses, whatever. They go on to be amazing family companions, protectors, and as I've learned today, champions in national dog sports competitions. Raise the dog right, don't ever abuse it, socialize it to different situations and you will have a great dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Genetics can only be enhanced or suppressed with raising and training. You can't get out of a dog what isn't there to begin with.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

Pet lines simply refers to dogs who come from generations of dogs bred to be pets/companions, they were not bred for uniformity towards a certain goal. Pet lines can vary greatly in temperament, structure, and health. They tend to be a gamble since it's hard to predict how a dog will come out without breeding for some degree of uniformity and without keeping track of health or testing the dogs' temperaments. Unfortunately many people who breed these dogs do not care about these things, or they are simply ignorant to them but well meaning.

I agree that your dog looks American/Pet lines. They are also the most common type of GSD you see in the states with the general public.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It's a big risk - coming from less than stellar lines. But, sometimes you get lucky. And, as far as health goes - NO breeders IMO have anything to brag about.....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have five dogs, all from reputable breeders, all enjoy good health. That's no accident.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

And I've had 5 dogs, all GSD's or X's - all from BYB's and all lived healthy, happy lives all over 13 years old. That's no accident.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Then there is no need to bash breeders.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I understand the want and drive for uniformity. I also understand the problems with this breed at this point in time health wise. I am sorry to say, that I can see no difference in health or longevity at this point from the two camps - regardless of the health checks. 

The allergies, food intolerances, the temperament issues, hd, mega..... all of it... there's nothing to brag about with this breed on selective breeding. HD skips gens as do many of the other health issues.... it's just a mess and I just count myself thankful I have another healthy dog. 

I see the need for uniformity.. but health should come first not type and it's just too far gone for any reliability. I'm not talking about buying from puppy mills - but give this op a break... his dog may not be within standard but it may be super healthy, happy and everything they want.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Then there is no need to bash breeders.


I am not bashing breeders. This health issue is so far beyond what any breeder can hope to prevent or try to unravel. Otherwise, they would have done it by now. If you look into the genetics and mutations on these health issues - I've never heard of a dog breeder that has the equipment or know how to begin to understand the problem let alone fix it. The tests help some but not enough and the drive to keep going for type is limiting efforts. Maybe that's even wrong at this point. Some say there is no going back and the problems can't be fixed because they're too intertwined in the lines...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Where have I faulted OP's dog? I have only requested clarification as to why *he* might have felt his dog is "less than" based on possibly being a "pet" bred GSD.

I disagree with not seeing advances in health in today's GSD. The dogs that I see having the most health problems today are dogs that are not well bred. Look at this forum itself, the vast majority of dogs with serious health problems come from questionable breedings and are presenting with genetic health issues. Most reputable breeders place a priority on health.

Breeders, scientists and researchers are unraveling and preventing genetic health issues. I know many dog breeders that have the know how and breeding knowledge of how to eliminate and breed out many health issues and not just with GSDs. Reputable breeders aren't breeding just for "type". They breed for the whole package.

When you claim that reputable breeders don't learn about genetic health issues found in the breed and don't apply their knowledge in their breeding practices, that is bashing reputable breeders.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My dog Ruger who just passed I would suspect was the result of accidental ditch breeding in Florida by free roaming dogs or strays. It doesn't get less deliberate to improve the breed than that. He was a great dog. He was brave, fearless, he protected my children and me, he was endlessly tolerant of children and puppies, I could go on and on. If I could have had him for another 10 years I would in an instant, he was awesome.

I have met some BYB dogs who were mental messes and a petstore GSD (presumably puppy mill) who had to have hip surgery at 4 months and was destined for life as a cripple anyway. Really nice temperament on the cripple though ironically.

I would not choose to go out and buy a dog from a substandard breeder because the chances of winding up with a mental or physical distaster are more than you get from a better breeder. But I don't think for a minute there aren't great dogs out there who came from byb.

OP, if your dog is what you want and you are happy then I am happy for you. No judgement here although I do wish people who did not want to buy from a reputable breeder would rescue instead of purchasing from a subpar breeder which supports them. I once got a really nice working line 2 year old out of a shelter for 150 bucks


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> It's a big risk - coming from less than stellar lines. But, sometimes you get lucky. And, as far as health goes - NO breeders IMO have anything to brag about.....



I haven't read everything, so maybe I missed something. 

I completely disagree with this statement. Reputable breeders are doing all they can to eliminate health issues. Unfortunately that's only a part of it. Is it still a gamble? Yes. But I'd rather risk maybe one puppy from a litter pop up with HD than five or the whole litter. That's the odds. Lets not forget the sample isn't going to be accurate. The majority of people going to a byb to get a $300 puppy aren't going to spend $1000 on health test to make sure their dog is healthy and free of HD/ED. However people who put time and money into researching their breeder and have a contract will. Also from reputable breeders you get some type of uniformity. You know the type of dog you're going to get. For example when people come to me looking for a hardcore working dog I send them to a specific breeder I know. When someone is looking for an all around dog I send them to different breeder. When you work enough dogs out of a decent number of breeders, you get to see the common characteristics of that breeder. The traits they focus on. It's to a point where just working a dog I know if its out of certain breeders/lines.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

If I knew now what I knew when I got her of course I would have gotten her with papers from a reputable breeder, I mean at this point her Schutzhund lessons are costing so much more than she did it is sort of funny. Now however, I wouldn't trade her for the best Schutzhund champion who scores 300 points at every trial because I love her. I didn't want a shelter dog because one I have cats so I needed to introduce them to her when she was little, and I wanted a real bond with her like you get when you raise a puppy into adulthood.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just FYI for anyone else reading this, the GSD rescue I am currently volunteering for just had a litter of puppies that was adopted out. You can sometimes get puppies out of rescue too. I my view, adopting a rescue is about a similar gamble as buying from a BYB except you may be able to tell a lot more about an adult in a foster home. They can be tested with cats and other animals. A foster family may know a dog pretty well and be able to tell you a lot about the dog to see if it is a good fit.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> It's a big risk - coming from less than stellar lines. But, sometimes you get lucky. And, as far as health goes - NO breeders IMO have anything to brag about.....


Where did that come from? It's not true. I bought a dog that comes from a long line of dogs that have been tested for hips and elbows and are DM free. My breeder spent a long time explaining her breeding philosophy and genetics to us. She knows what she is talking about amd what she is doing. That statement doesn't come from fact but opinion.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> And I've had 5 dogs, all GSD's or X's - all from BYB's and all lived healthy, happy lives all over 13 years old. That's no accident.


Actually it is by accident. You can't say a BYB intentionally breeds for good health unless they put the time and energy and money into testing, etc. and understand genetics.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Actually it is by accident. You can't say a BYB intentionally breeds for good health unless they put the time and energy and money into testing, etc. and understand genetics.


I agree that it is either an accident or luck.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Niexist said:


> If I knew now what I knew when I got her of course I would have gotten her with papers from a reputable breeder, I mean at this point her Schutzhund lessons are costing so much more than she did it is sort of funny. Now however, I wouldn't trade her for the best Schutzhund champion who scores 300 points at every trial because I love her. I didn't want a shelter dog because one I have cats so I needed to introduce them to her when she was little, and I wanted a real bond with her like you get when you raise a puppy into adulthood.


While I got my newest dog from a quality breeder, I also have had many rescues who were all from BYBs. They were excellent pets and I loved every one of them?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree that it is either an accident or luck.


Or they have an innate instinct for quality dogs, but in my experience knowing breeders, it takes a lot of work to get the dogs they want. Our breeder's lines go back decades and did not start with her. If I had the interest and time, she could have explained why she chose the pairings she did to get our litter back to the earliest pedigree. And why she bought the imports she did to bring into her lines. She doesn't do line breeding but explained to me why it works when it's used properly after I asked. I should also explain, the dog I'm talking about is not the one in my picture. In case anyone wonders why I keep talking about my WL dog when the picture is clearly a SL.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

She's a nice looking dog with good pigment, but her legs are very long. It could be that she is just growing crazy right now. Or it could be her genetics. Is she spayed, and when did that happen?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonevintage View Post
It's a big risk - coming from less than stellar lines. But, sometimes you get lucky. And, as far as health goes - NO breeders IMO have anything to brag about.....'

LuvShepherds asked
Where did that come from? It's not true. I bought a dog that comes from a long line of dogs that have been tested for hips and elbows and are DM free. My breeder spent a long time explaining her breeding philosophy and genetics to us. She knows what she is talking about amd what she is doing. That statement doesn't come from fact but opinion.


Where did that come from ? From a person who said she would consider being a backyard breeder to keep up house payments http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/656562-i-may-become-backyard-breeder.html

It's a sad situaton and it's a bad solution.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> She's a nice looking dog with good pigment, but her legs are very long. It could be that she is just growing crazy right now. Or it could be her genetics. Is she spayed, and when did that happen?


She does look like an early spay, but does have fantastic pigment. I saw some videos OP posted, nice dog.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Actually she has not been spayed yet. I heard it was best to wait until after they had their first or second heat to do that. 

She's not some super tall BYB's giant shepherd, I haven't measured her in a little while but I believe she's about 24", maybe 25" now at the hithers, and probably is around 55 pounds or so right now. I don't know as much as everyone else, but to me she looks very lean like she was meant to work where when I see showline dogs they are a bit bigger and not as athletic looking.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

OP, what lines do you think she is? ideally, what would you like to have seen in the responses?

working lines are working lines, showlines are showlines - both have a pretty wide range of size, build, conformation and temperment. some breeders mix lines, for several reasons but most often because they don't know the difference and/or are fulfilling a pet market demand. in that you get the good the bad and just about everything in between..... even more of a range than purely work or show. pretty soon.... the type or line isn't recognizable and the dog takes traits from all of them.

this is nothing to be sensitive or get offended about.

your dog does not fall strongly into a type - neither do mine, this suggests that they are a mix of lines or a single line that was loosely bred. from her appearance, to me, she appears to be mostly american lines. fine bone, thin face, long limbs.

size, color and temperment suggest Keystone is all or mostly working lines. coat and color suggest Tilden is all or mainly west german showlines. key word "suggests"..... they're both rescues. at the end of the day both are more than likely a byb "pet line" as well...... even being smart, athletic, healthy, etc etc etc.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It's hard to wait for a GSD to come to maturity and not want to imagine their final size and shape. I can only say that until mine approached the 1 year mark did I see it all coming together and making sense. Lol at 7-11 months she was all height, ears and tail. Before that, she was peanut shaped. 

It wasn't until around 10 months that she really started building muscle definition and getting that nice tummy tuck. It was more like at 18 mos before she started growing into her ears and tail. It's not so much the weight and height that changes in the later months of maturity but the proportions started to balance out. There were further changes along this line from 18 to 24 months and her speed and coordination really started to shine. Take lots of pics and enjoy your beautiful girl. You'll be amazed at the changes yet to come.:smile2:


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

I think she is a working dog because she's very active, has a nice straight back, and very driven.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Niexist said:


> I think she is a working dog because she's very active, has a nice straight back, and very driven.


I am thrilled that you can say all those things about your dog , however I can't place her into the working line genetics .
Her sire and dam and the black dog don't look like it .

I would say decades of casual breeding without regard to pedigrees or evaluation against a physical or performance standard .

Is there a pedigree available just to satisfy your curiosity?

Keep her healthy . Give her life experience , train her , appreciate her and let her develop to the best that her genetics will allow .

that is the formula for success .


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Niexist said:


> Actually she has not been spayed yet. I heard it was best to wait until after they had their first or second heat to do that.
> 
> She's not some super tall BYB's giant shepherd, I haven't measured her in a little while but I believe she's about 24", maybe 25" now at the hithers, and probably is around 55 pounds or so right now. I don't know as much as everyone else, but to me she looks very lean like she was meant to work where when I see showline dogs they are a bit bigger and not as athletic looking.


I didn't say she was super tall, I said she has long legs. She does. If you trace straight lines through her feet, up to her butt, to her withers, and back down to her front feet, she is square. She should be rectangular -- longer than tall, bay about 10:8. But she is growing.

You gave us 24" to 25" -- that is tall for a female (American standard is 22-24 inches, SV is in cm, and a little smaller), and she is still growing. Let's hope she does not grow any further upwards, but fills out in chest and, though I doubt it will happen, in length. 

My girl is a show line, and at 9 months weighs 49.2 pounds. I have no idea her height, but she seems small to me, very athletic, and thin (constantly working on that with youngsters). So 55 pounds is in the ball park, for her age, and the fact that she is already taller than most of my girls (most of them weight 65-72 pounds as mature adults, and then they put on weight from there. But as youngsters, 50-65 pounds seems about where I get them. Babsy was 22-23 inches at the shoulder, and 58 pounds at 2 years old, and ribsy -- probably because your dog has weight in height, and she had more length. Now she is 79 pounds at almost 11 years, and on a diet. Her ideal weight as a mature adult was approximately 65 pounds. 

This is just given as a comparison. The problem is, comparing GSDS is generally like comparing apples to oranges. Some are long and low and stocky with heavy bone, broad chests, and straight backs, and others are tall, thin, slab-sided, with fine bone, and narrow features. And everything in between.

Remember too that growth is different for every dog. Some climb up first and look like they have a lot of leg, others are fully filled out at 10 months. Some of that might be how you feed and what, and some might just be genetics. It will be interesting to see photos of your girl when she is 2 and 3 years old and fully mature.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Here is a link for you that you may find interesting OP. It's a good discussion on the back and rear angulation that took place here last April.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/572129-sv-judge-true-back-gsd.html


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Here is a picture of her today the other one is actually from 1 month ago, I think you guys are judging her when she's incomplete. I don't thinkk she'll look this ackward when she's fully grown.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

well, in everyone's defense, we "judged" her when we were asked and with the photo provided. as Carm said.... it's great that your dog has the qualities listed, however, do you realize that there are american and/or showlines who work?

anyway, I'm sort of done here. best of luck with your girl


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

"square" and "flat backed" aren't words that most working breeders would consider using to describe their dogs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Niexist said:


> It makes them out like they're stupid shifty dangerous versions of show line.


Pretty sure that is not what Chris intended for the meaning. Why don't you contact her directly and ask her. She can explain what she was saying. She can also explain the different lines to you with specific traits. Very nice and very knowledgeable.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes we are, and we have said that. Lots of shepherds go through awkward growth stages.

She has a very pretty and expressive face.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Fodder said "do you realize that there are american and/or showlines who work?"

that does not make it a working LINE though -- not by deliberate selection from a group that
has been tested and proven


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I happen to personally know this dog and this person. I remember the original post she made on Facebook with these photos to show the progress she was making in stacking him. I've seen you post this picture several times. Do you have permission from her to save a copy to your personal account and post it? And I ask because I just spoke to her and it doesn't appear you do. If so, you should discuss this further with her. If not, she would appreciate if you would delete the picture from your account and no longer post it.



Dainerra said:


> "square" and "flat backed" aren't words that most working breeders would consider using to describe their dogs


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I don't see why "what line your dog is" really matters, I can guarantee you that she doesn't care. Work with her and try competing in some venue. You can learn more about your dog, the breed and the different lines as you go.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> I happen to personally know this dog and this person. I remember the original post she made on Facebook with these photos to show the progress she was making in stacking him. I've seen you post this picture several times. Do you have permission from her to save a copy to your personal account and post it? And I ask because I just spoke to her and it doesn't appear you do. If so, you should discuss this further with her. If not, she would appreciate if you would delete the picture from your account and no longer post it.


actually, she posted it on a group that I am a member of and gave permission for it to be shared for the purpose of showing what a stack means. 
At least the person who posted it on the group, claiming that it was her dog, gave permission to anyone to share this photo.

It was posted on a breeders discussion group on how to best explain to someone what a show stack is and what it really means when someone calls their dog "straight back"


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have a newbie question. re: the two photos below;

Photo 1 shows the dog well down in the show stance,

Photo 2 shows the dog that has his back legs well out behind him.

My dog (now 2) and pet quality - for the first time dropped down in a natural pose almost as low as in photo 1 yesterday. I thought it was just a freakish thing but she did it again today and when she did, both times - she was across the yard but almost "pointing" or thinking where she caught the squirrel day before yesterday. Question - is this a natural posture in anticipation of something? What is the purpose of posing them that way? I read somewhere that it is a way of accentuating but I've seen it myself twice this week and it was natural and not posed??? What a line it gave her back! She looked like a "show dog" lol. 

Question 2 - that photo 2 isn't a "relaxed pose is it? The back legs are far out behind him. It seems stretched to still accentuate the angle. I would be curious to see how that would look with his back legs more under him. That would bring the angle up.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Stonevintage View Post
> It's a big risk - coming from less than stellar lines. But, sometimes you get lucky. And, as far as health goes - NO breeders IMO have anything to brag about.....'
> 
> ...


Carmspack - I would have liked the opportunity to explain my comment to LuvShepherds - I guess instead you felt your opinion of me was more important to impart to her. I think that was uncalled for and am surprised someone with your experience and knowledge would take that approach. If you are one to absolutely adhere to protocol and standards with dogs - I'm surprised you wouldn't do the same with people in conversation....


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

How much do SchutzHund classes cost? I want to get into it, around my way the first 4 are free.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> actually, she posted it on a group that I am a member of and gave permission for it to be shared for the purpose of showing what a stack means.
> At least the person who posted it on the group, claiming that it was her dog, gave permission to anyone to share this photo.
> 
> It was posted on a breeders discussion group on how to best explain to someone what a show stack is and what it really means when someone calls their dog "straight back"



I know where it was posted. I saw the original post. You should probably discuss with her then. Per the conversation I had with her last night, she's not happy. I'm just delivering the message. Don't have a dog in this fight


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Julian G said:


> How much do SchutzHund classes cost? I want to get into it, around my way the first 4 are free.


Cost varies I'm sure, but where I go you have to join USCA, then join the club which is about 300 dollars total, then the twice weekly club nights are $20, or $30 if you don't join usca/club.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

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Jax08 said:


> I know where it was posted. I saw the original post. You should probably discuss with her then. Per the conversation I had with her last night, she's not happy. I'm just delivering the message. Don't have a dog in this fight


I'll have to remember which group that I had the conversation with her on. I'll quit sharing it. It's no big deal to me. 
It's definitely already out there though since I know about 10 different facebook groups that I've seen it shared on. That's why I don't remember exactly which breeder or working dog group I originally talked to her on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you. She'll appreciate it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Niexist said:


> Cost varies I'm sure, but where I go you have to join USCA, then join the club which is about 300 dollars total, then the twice weekly club nights are $20, or $30 if you don't join usca/club.


Cost varies greatly. I think it's also a case of paying for quality training as well. It's an expensive sport when you total training costs, travel, seminar fees, etc.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> Thank you. She'll appreciate it.


No problem. I never would have saved and shared it except that permission was given to use it for educational purposes. As I said, I've seen it posted on dozens of discussions since then. So she may have her hands full getting it under control.


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## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

Do you guys think these look like malinois puppies? I see them at a local spca listed as german shepherd mix but they look a lot like malinois.

https://www.petango.com/webservices/adoptablesearch/wsAdoptableAnimalDetails.aspx?id=31995751&css=http://www.petango.com/WebServices/adoptablesearch/css/styles.css&PopUp=true

https://www.petango.com/webservices/adoptablesearch/wsAdoptableAnimalDetails.aspx?id=31995684&css=http://www.petango.com/WebServices/adoptablesearch/css/styles.css&PopUp=true


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Niexist said:


> Do you guys think these look like malinois puppies? I see them at a local spca listed as german shepherd mix but they look a lot like malinois.
> 
> https://www.petango.com/webservices/adoptablesearch/wsAdoptableAnimalDetails.aspx?id=31995751&css=http://www.petango.com/WebServices/adoptablesearch/css/styles.css&PopUp=true
> 
> https://www.petango.com/webservices/adoptablesearch/wsAdoptableAnimalDetails.aspx?id=31995684&css=http://www.petango.com/WebServices/adoptablesearch/css/styles.css&PopUp=true


It's usually just a guess with puppies, but I'd say the shelter probably got it close with the GSD/mix.


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