# Opinions needed...returning puppy to breeder



## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Should a breeder take a dog back that has more or less been sick since it left his care? Has anyone had success in doing this? Puppy is about 14 weeks old. Thoughts and experiences are appreciated!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Well, what kind of sick? Parasites? Parasites are extremely common in puppies, and while a reputable breeder would never send home a puppy with parasites, it does occasionally happen. It’s not quite the same thing, but my pup had coccidia when he came home from a very reputable breeder. She had a clean fecal from the pups before she sent any of them home, so she was surprised. Coccidia is more of a stress related parasite (a lot of dogs don’t even need treatment for it), so not the breeders fault at all, but she still offered to pay the bills.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Pytheis said:


> Well, what kind of sick? Parasites? Parasites are extremely common in puppies, and while a reputable breeder would never send home a puppy with parasites, it does occasionally happen. It’s not quite the same thing, but my pup had coccidia when he came home from a very reputable breeder. She had a clean fecal from the pups before she sent any of them home, so she was surprised. Coccidia is more of a stress related parasite (a lot of dogs don’t even need treatment for it), so not the breeders fault at all, but she still offered to pay the bills.


To start with, bacterial ear infection, SIBO, UTI and seems to have some other issues causing serious incontinence. Can't get her to stop peeing/pooping in her crate. My guess is there is something more serious wrong with her. We are completely worn out. Never had these issues with any of our other dogs. Already spent over $1000 at the vet and know the next step is an ultrasound, etc which will be even more money.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I don’t know. As soon as I put a new puppy in my arms, it’s mine. I bond instantly. I couldn’t return a pup no matter what. My previous dog had parvo as a pup 4 days home. I had the right to return him the first week. I didn’t. He was mine, and I loved him.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

buddyr93 said:


> To start with, bacterial ear infection, SIBO, UTI and seems to have some other issues causing serious incontinence. Can't get her to stop peeing/pooping in her crate. My guess is there is something more serious wrong with her. We are completely worn out. Never had these issues with any of our other dogs. Already spent over $1000 at the vet and know the next step is an ultrasound, etc which will be even more money.


That sounds really rough. I'm sorry you guys are going through that. I don't see anything wrong with returning her to the breeder at this point. I have returned one dog to a breeder, but not for health issues. It was sad, but the breeder was willing to take her back and was nice about it. Have you already asked the breeder to take her back? Do you have a contract that states the breeder has right of first refusal?


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

What does your contract say? Have you been in contact with the breeder about the issues you have been having? A reputable breeder will take a puppy back for any reason.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

How was SIBO diagnosed?

where is puppy’s crate at night? How often are you taking her out? What do you do out there to ensure she intimates/defecates? is she on a leash?

what do you do AFTER she eliminates outside?


have you consulted an veterinary internist? A veterinary behaviorist? A trainer? What kind of trainer? Do they/you use force punishments at all?

what do you do if she has an accident in the crate or the house? Please outline your process.

did the pup live full time in a house or a kennel at the-breeder’s?

Finally, was the urine taken directly from her bladder or was it caught in a plate or cup?

sorry for all the questions but it helps to understand the situation before giving advice in this situation


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

I have kept the breeder updated throughout as of last week. SIBO was just diagnosed so he doesn't know that. I just wanted to get some thoughts before I came right out and asked him if he'd take her back. Sadly, we've put our heart, soul and wallet into this puppy to no avail. My concern is we spend another $1000 to find out she's got some congenital defect that will require thousands in surgery to possibly fix. At that point, it's a lose-lose situation. This is not a decision we would take lightly as we've never thought of doing this before. There is clearly something wrong with this dog and it may never end. I'll check again, but I'm pretty sure the contract stated the usual 72 or so hours to get vet checked, etc.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

4K9Mom said:


> How was SIBO diagnosed?
> 
> where is puppy’s crate at night? How often are you taking her out? What do you do out there to ensure she intimates/defecates? is she on a leash?
> 
> ...


I understand. This is not our first rodeo. We're doing everything just like we have with our other pups. SIBO was based on full GI panel from Texas A&M. Praise and treat after going outside since day 1. Pup was in a kennel at breeders but also spent time in house. Urine from cup but clinical signs also there. Never punished for going in crate. Crates thoroughly cleaned, disinfected, etc after. Have not forked out more money for internist or anything like that yet. That's part of my issue...don't feel like we should have to since the dog was clearly sick when we got her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Most contracts say to take the puppy to the vet with a certain time frame. At that time, you should have returned the puppy for a full refund. Breeders may replace a puppy with a genetic disease such as HD. Many breeders I know would take the puppy back if the owner was this upset for the puppy's well being.

However, everything you have stated so far is curable. Peeing/pooping in the crate is most likely caused by the SIBO and UTI. SIBO is not permanent. It's an imbalance of good to bad bacteria in the gut. It very well could have been caused by antibiotics for the ear infection or the UTI and if that's the case, that's just bad luck, not the breeders fault. Once that is cleared up then it should go away with training. A previous member had this exact situation. Once the SIBO was cleared up, the dog has done amazing.

I understand that you expected a healthy puppy and I wouldn't be happy either. IF I were to return the puppy, I would not expect a refund unless I had concrete proof that the puppy had an incurable condition, or one that would impact quality of life, none of which is relevant with the information you have so far. 

So if you want to return her then you should hope your breeder is very, very, very nice and in a good mood.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Most contracts say to take the puppy to the vet with a certain time frame. At that time, you should have returned the puppy for a full refund. Breeders may replace a puppy with a genetic disease such as HD. Many breeders I know would take the puppy back if the owner was this upset for the puppy's well being.
> 
> However, everything you have stated so far is curable. Peeing/pooping in the crate is most likely caused by the SIBO and UTI. SIBO is not permanent. It's an imbalance of good to bad bacteria in the gut. It very well could have been caused by antibiotics for the ear infection or the UTI and if that's the case, that's just bad luck, not the breeders fault. Once that is cleared up then it should go away with training. A previous member had this exact situation. Once the SIBO was cleared up, the dog has done amazing.
> 
> ...


Jax, as usual, your advice is very much appreciated. I totally agree with you...if everything is curable, which it may be, then I'm pretty much SOL and I get it. I'm just worried this continues, does not improve and a month later down the line she is found to have something far more serious. We pretty much have the SIBO under control. She hasn't had diarrhea in a couple weeks (since the last time we tried to feed her kibble) but the eliminating in the crate thing has gotten worse over the last couple weeks. 

We haven't had a good night sleep since the night after we brought her home so we're just very frustrated and very tired. Thanks again.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am a little confused. Are these issues being diagnosed partially on this puppy's inability to be housetrained?

What works for some dogs house breaking won't necessarily work for the next one. How long is this puppy in a crate before having accidents?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What is her blood work for kidney function showing? Did you do a sterile sample and have them culture to determine which antibiotics would work best?

What are you feeding her? I would think it would be the hydrolyzed protein food?

Since she was sick, and she couldn't help going on her crate, you will have to make the crate as small as possible so she has no choice but to hold it as it's now a habit that needs to be broken and you have to start at square 1 with crate training.

If you are that unhappy, all you can do is talk to the breeder and ask the questions you asked here. I just would not expect the breeder to do anything outside of the contract. And can you please PM me the name of the breeder? This is a showline?


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

Ok. SIBO sounds legit, but I (and others I know with perfectly good dogs) have had puppies with SIBO from good breeders that turned out to be good dogs.

I realize this isn’t your first rodeo, but your pup doesn’t know that. She is an individual. I’ve learned that over the years. The pup sitting in front of me has no idea what I already know. She is just herself.

Generally speaking, Urine collected in a cup isn’t great especially if the pup already has GI issues, particularly if we already know there is an overgrowth of bacteria in her gut.

She may have a UTI. She probably does. Sloppy fecal matter easily travels Into the urinary tract on females. In your case, I would see this as a symptom of the SIBO, not a whole other issue that points to her general unsoundness.

Did you culture the urine? I would: the ampicillin or amoxicillin you’re using to treat the SIBO may be effective for the UTI because it may be the exact same bacteria. I wouldn’t throw other another abx at it until I knew for sure (it’s a good way to get antibiotics resistance. And even if you return her, that’s not fair to her) 

Ok.Crate accidents. The illness may be the primary cause, but in my experience,the older dogs come from breeders, the less likely they are to be fully crate trained, especially if they live in kennels. Females in particular.

Like, really females. sigh. (I’ve been there. I feel your pain) 


I’d start her from scratch as though she’s an 8 week old. Give her a crate floor that isn’t snuggly or absorbent. There are rubber ones you can buy. I’ve found Kong Chew resistant pads are pretty good. They’re at least comfortable.Walmart carries a similar pad for less ( Vibrant Life Durable and Water Resistant Pad). Make sure her crate isn’t any bigger than she needs it. 

Set an alarm to take her out every two hours. Start this weekend. 

After she eliminates, treats, praise and mostly PLAY.

if there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that if we scoot our dogs back into the house after they eliminate, it takes longer for them to go next time and we often don’t get a full emptying of bowels and the bladder.

Eliminate, ,praise (Tiny treat. Don’t reload her intestines), play then ask for a potty again.

no? Ok, bedtime

yes? Ok, praise and play.

repeat.

My pup is 10 months old. He’ll run outside, immediately urinate, happily zoom around then try to run into the house. I show him his favorite tug in my pocket and give him the command for defecate. He’ll bounce around a bit. I give him the cue again. And oh yeah, he has to poo. A lot!

My guy is healthy, well trained, a service dog in training and smart... but he forgets he has to poop. Sigh...

They’re puppies. We can’t trust their judgement.

Personally, I’d put your girl on the antibiotics for SIBO, get a cysto draw and culture the urine. Treat those.

Handle the other stuff behaviorally. Positive reinforcement only. If she makes a mistake, put her on another room, then clean up.

Before I do a pricy ultrasound, I’d get a less expensive consult with an internist.

I don’t think you really need an internist at this point, but I don’t think there is cause for an ultrasound.So if you think there is, put a more educated laser-focused set of eyes on her first.

I’ve found repeatedly that specialists save me money because we’re not randomly doing unnecessary tests. (My experience, my vet and likely my internist —whom I’m consulting for two of my other dogs — would say for a GSD with ongoing loose stools issues, testing for EPI would be the next step,But how could you know if you’re still treating the SIBO? (I don’t see a lot of reason to jump to EPI with our hair on fire here. I’m just saying, that would be my next step, not an ultrasound unless your vet is actually talking about scoping her?
That seems a bit extreme at this point. And you’d want an internist to do that anyhow.) 

For my GSD, it simply meant moving to all fish diet.

So...after treating for SIBO (one thing at a time. Scientific method!) if that didn’t work, you could try a significant diet change.

I’d keep the breeder informed, but I’d give this pup more time and more individualized energy. 

Good luck!

(I kind of jumped around a lot here. Drop me a note if you want to chat more)


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Every day, my wife, kids or I take her out at least once an hour, never fail. Today, she went in her small (enough room for her to turn around) crate about 10 minutes after we took her out and had no issues peeing right where she was. Yesterday, my wife was out for about an hour and a half and she went in the crate (after going out right before my wife left). She is eating The Honest Kitchen since I tried that on a recommendation and other than homemade chicken and rice it's the only thing that hasn't given her diarrhea or very loose stools. I would have to ask the vet if the full GI panel showed anything about her kidneys but based on the folate levels they diagnosed SIBO. As far as the UTI, he prescribed clavamox. And yes, she's showline.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

4K9Mom said:


> Ok. SIBO sounds legit, but I (and others I know with perfectly good dogs) have had puppies with SIBO from good breeders that turned out to be good dogs.
> 
> I realize this isn’t your first rodeo, but your pup doesn’t know that. She is an individual. I’ve learned that over the years. The pup sitting in front of me has no idea what I already know. She is just herself.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the great advice and recommendations. BTW, the full GI panel tested for EPI, at least cobalamin and folate levels. Cobalamin was low but normal range and folate was high outside normal. We started clavamox for the UTI and since it can be used to treat SIBO, I didn't want to add another one in there just yet at least. I hear what you're saying about more time and energy but to be honest, my wife and I have done exactly that since we brought her home at 8 weeks. So, it's not like we lock her up in a crate all day. My wife stays home and gives her a lot of attention and care during the day. She's the most patient person in the world and even she's at wits end. I like your idea of the internist. I think that will be our next step.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think it is really possible that physical issues caused a behavioral problem: dirty puppy. Meaning she couldn't help but pee and poop all the time then sit in it because of her physical problem. But she also became desensitized to sitting in her own mess and now she doesn't care.

Assuming her physical problems are legitimately resolved then you have to address the dirty problem.

Big job. I don't envy you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think it is really possible that physical issues caused a behavioral problem: dirty puppy. Meaning she couldn't help but pee and poop all the time then sit in it because of her physical problem. But she also became desensitized to sitting in her own mess and now she doesn't care.
> 
> Assuming her physical problems are legitimately resolved then you have to address the dirty problem.
> 
> Big job. I don't envy you.





Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think it is really possible that physical issues caused a behavioral problem: dirty puppy. Meaning she couldn't help but pee and poop all the time then sit in it because of her physical problem. But she also became desensitized to sitting in her own mess and now she doesn't care.
> 
> Assuming her physical problems are legitimately resolved then you have to address the dirty problem.
> 
> Big job. I don't envy you.


That's my take on it as well.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

The crazy thing is she slept through the night from about 10 till almost 5:30 this morning and didn't do anything in her crate. She started whining and I took her out. Day started off great and went downhill from there!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Because it's a habit you have to break now. It's like you put food on the counter every day and everyday she takes it. a month in, you're like "why can't I keep her off the counter?"

You literally have to be there to stop her in the act of dirtying her crate. Bang on the crate, make a sharp noise, anything to break her cycle to stop her in midstream or mid poop and get her outside, where she can finish and you can reward her with a huge party.

But, like I said in our messages, you have to get her well first because the original issue of being dirty wasn't her fault or within her control.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If you are not positive her physical problems are solved maybe put her in a big crate or kennel and try to litter train her in one portion to at least encourage her to try to keep herself clean when she can't hold it? Just a thought.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think it is really possible that physical issues caused a behavioral problem: dirty puppy. Meaning she couldn't help but pee and poop all the time then sit in it because of her physical problem. But she also became desensitized to sitting in her own mess and now she doesn't care.
> 
> Assuming her physical problems are legitimately resolved then you have to address the dirty problem.
> 
> Big job. I don't envy you.


A dirty dog can be turned around though. I got one of those. It took several months of being fastidious and consistent.

First, absolutely no absorbent crate pads. No pillows, no stuffies, no blankets.

Then, once her course of antibiotics is done — and her labs come back clean— we take her for regular walks/play before bed/naps etc.

Time meals, snacks, water so that you’re giving these after she wakes up, not before.

Please do not EVER punish a dog for urinating or defecating anywhere.You can interrupt the behavior with a simply “ack!”snd bringing her outside. But please, don't hit her crate or throw anything at it. We want the crate to be her safe place where she feels protected. Activities like this just make crate training much more difficult.

(FWIW, dogs who are punished for eliminating will hide it. They think “my human hates when I poop and pee.This is how people end up with dogs that go behind draperies or under the bed. That is an awful problem and much harder to resolve because they don’t let you see them go. I adopted a dog from the county shelter with this problem. It took me almost 1.5 years to fully housebreak her)

ok, back to dirty dogd. The key is, we don’t let them get their beds wet or dirty and if they do, we change it instantly. That means having extra water resistant pads waiting and an empty laundry (I used a plastic garbage can) you can toss the wet one in. The Kong/Walmart mats I suggest above go through normal cycle easily. I have a number of them from my days when I was doing this (now, they stack for comfy beds for Doggyy sunbathing) 

As time goes on, the dog is being properly housebroken AND she learns what it’s like to be clean. It takes time, but dogs strongly prefer to have clean places to sleep. 

It took my “dirty dog” several months, but she is the most fastidious dog now. She‘s a smaller dog, but sleeps in about 6 soft fleece blankets on a 4” thick memory foam pad in her GSD size crate.

She has also earned a water bowl that’s in her crate all night long. And if she accidentally spills her water, she barks until I come and replace the wet blankets. She learned that being clean and dry is wonderful. She won’t ever (intentionally) wet her bed again.

It was simply a matter of keeping her and her bed clean and dry until the lightbulb went on. 

I don’t doubt your pup can learn this as well. GSDs are finickier than many other breeds. She just needs to be calmly shown the way


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Just thought I'd share an update...we've come down off the ledge with thoughts of returning her to the breeder. I'd say her digestive issues have pretty much cleared up, at least for now, as well as the UTI. I plan to stay with the Honest Kitchen for a while since she's doing well on it. Luckily, I was able to stock up when it was on sale. Once I realized we had to start back at square one with potty training, that's been going well too. Thanks to all who shared advice and opinions!


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## GSD246 (Jan 17, 2012)

My first gsd was from the pet store. I had all kinds of issues with this dog. I had pet insurance. Hit the 5k max payout in less than a year. I did finally managed to get things turned around. At times I was very lucky I didn't lose her. Crate mess was only the start of my problems. She wouldn't use the bathroom outside. Loved to do that in the crate. Petstore dog for you. Aggression that kept getting worse and uti, other issues. I just wouldn't give up on her. At 9 months she looked like she had lost the will to live. I would just hold her. Trying to get her to feel better while trying different options until finally I found a solution that took her from dying to thriving. My best help came from a forum who suggested alternative treatments and they helped guide me through it every step of the way. 

My new dog also came with a contract. I did do my part on it. It states that if she has any genetic issues before 3 I could return her. For me, that doesn't mean much since by that point I'm certainly not taken her back. I looked for breeders who would offer to pay part of the medical expenses but I couldn't find any. 

I'm so happy to read you found a solution.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you are committed to keeping her, I would start her on a commercial raw diet asap (petco has them in the freezer section) and add about a cup of RAW green tripe (uncleaned and yucky smelling from Green Tripe.com) every day. That stuff has cured many stomach issues in many of my dogs over the years. Go back to Puppy House training 101.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I think she is too young for full raw after having so many problems. If she is doing well on THK, I would keep using it for now. I’m a big fan. It saved my dog’s life when nothing else worked.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

And after two weeks of no accidents, she's back to peeing in her crate. Seems not to care about going outside. We've decided to rehome her. She is taking all of our time and energy away from our other dog which just isn't fair. We've never dealt with issues like this before. It's like she really doesn't care. At 4 months she should be completely housebroken but we can't have her out of her crate for more than 30 minutes at a time or so. It's not fair to her or us. I'm so disappointed but I guess the signs were there from day one. Just not meant to be. Hopefully someone else with more time can get her on the right path.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Are you returning her to the breeder? It sounds like the UTI is back. Have you taken her to the vet? 

***I am not judging or trying to talk you into keeping her. Just in the meantime, she needs to be vet checked for a UTI.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Are you returning her to the breeder? It sounds like the UTI is back. Have you taken her to the vet?
> 
> ***I am not judging or trying to talk you into keeping her. Just in the meantime, she needs to be vet checked for a UTI.


Agree ^^^^...when a GSD does this it's not because they're hard headed--un-trainable or that the owner is doing anything wrong......it sure sounds like the UTI has returned to me also....many times they're not easy to get gone AND keep gone....


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Shane'sDad said:


> Agree ^^^^...when a GSD does this it's not because they're hard headed--un-trainable or that the owner is doing anything wrong......it sure sounds like the UTI has returned to me also....many times they're not easy to get gone AND keep gone....


You guys really think it's STILL a UTI? None of the other signs are there though, i.e. the multiple short urinations and the licking of that area. She's only been off the meds for a week and hasn't peed in her crate at night at all. Today, it was the morning, after she'd been out several times, with my wife and daughter within 10 feet of her crate. No warning, whining, nothing. Big puddle of of pee in the crate that is just big enough for her to turn around, lie down. We're just completely spent. We've put 10 times more energy and time into this dog than we have with any other puppy we've had and to no avail.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This is how my first GSD (Wolfy Dog) started his auto immune issues at 10 weeks of age. He got several more, seemingly unrelated, infections and was ultimately diagnosed with auto immune disease. In the end he developed anal fistulas and I couldn't even clean him without him being muzzled. His anus oozed puss. He screamed from pain when defecating and postponed it as long as possible to avoid pain. At 1.5 years old, and after three independent vets told me he couldn't heal, I decided to have him euthanized. My pain about this has never gone away.
Before returning her to the breeder, I hope you can get to the bottom of the issue so you know for sure.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> This is how my first GSD (Wolfy Dog) started his auto immune issues at 10 weeks of age. He got several more, seemingly unrelated, infections and was ultimately diagnosed with auto immune disease. In the end he developed anal fistulas and I couldn't even clean him without him being muzzled. His anus oozed puss. He screamed from pain when defecating and postponed it as long as possible to avoid pain. At 1.5 years old, and after three independent vets told me he couldn't heal, I decided to have him euthanized. My pain about this has never gone away.
> Before returning her to the breeder, I hope you can get to the bottom of the issue so you know for sure.


Wow, that's absolutely horrible. I think it's a possibility that there may be a deeper reason for her issues but at this point, we can only do so much. She got off to a bad start as soon as we brought her home (actually was most likely already sick when we got her from the breeder) and it really set the tone for the almost two months we've had her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

buddyr93 said:


> You guys really think it's STILL a UTI? None of the other signs are there though, i.e. the multiple short urinations and the licking of that area. She's only been off the meds for a week and hasn't peed in her crate at night at all.


Yup.. Did they do a sterile sample and culture it as was suggested previously? 

Jax's ONLY symptoms was excessive drinking and couldn't housebreak. So if her water is restricted at night then she wouldn't pee in her crate. But since you have made this decision, I would return her to her breeder as quickly as possible so he can get her to a vet. If it is a UTI, and it goes untreated, it could cause kidney damage.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

buddyr93 said:


> You guys really think it's STILL a UTI? None of the other signs are there though, i.e. the multiple short urinations and the licking of that area. She's only been off the meds for a week and hasn't peed in her crate at night at all. Today, it was the morning, after she'd been out several times, with my wife and daughter within 10 feet of her crate. No warning, whining, nothing. Big puddle of of pee in the crate that is just big enough for her to turn around, lie down. We're just completely spent. We've put 10 times more energy and time into this dog than we have with any other puppy we've had and to no avail.


No warning for an accident at 4 months old, right?

Puppy is 4 months old and has had major setbacks behaviorally and physically. My current lab had a random big pee accident inside at like 5 months old. I don't know what the heck happened he just got too full and cut loose. Whatever. I was able to stop him and whisk him outside. I am pretty sure that was the last accident he ever had and he is almost 2.

But my point is perspective. Puppies have accidents, even older puppies. And your puppy is SO disadvantaged from being sick and then learning to be dirty, that your puppy needs a much longer window.

Of my boarder dogs the ones under a year are way less reliable and sure they do just squat sometimes and let er rip in the wrong place. They are away from home and routine and just aren't as experiences as the older dogs so whatever. They get it eventually.

This poor pup has had a heck of a time. Just voting for compassion, understanding and, perspective. Not even voting you keep the pup. Just for compassion understanding and perspective in the mean time.

Especially because what you say about puppy might color the opinion of whoever is taking it or deciding not to take it off your hands if you know what I mean. 

Who IS taking a possibly sick puppy who is behind the curve on housebreaking? Was the breeder reputable? Is that a safe place to send this pup? If not can you try to get it into breed rescue? Does puppy have an ok temperament? 

@Magwart got any ideas for getting this pup into safe hands?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Being off the meds a week sounds very suspicious, as in the right amount of time for it to flare right back up if it wasn't totally gone.

I just had a boarder get a uti during a stay. Typically clean dog peed her kennel which we thought was weird because even though she is young she has never peed her kennel. We actually did see some blood in the urine too and got her tested and confirmed right away and treated. 

But she had multiple other pees before tx started with no blood, we were just lucky that the one with blood was on a color surface where we could see it so we didn't wait to get her to the vet, we knew it was prob a uti.


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## KarmaPuppy (Nov 22, 2019)

We had the same issue with karma on the being good for awhile, and then going the bathroom in her crate for like a week straight, and then being good again. Happened off and on for AWHILE. So far she hasn't gone in a month (shes 8 months old now) so we'll continue to keep our fingers crossed. Sometimes you just have to "push through" this dirty puppy "phase". She has only gone the bathroom once in the house (other than the crate). I don't blame you for your frustrations, trust me, we were there as well. Nothing more fun than cleaning a done kennel, while watching two kids, trying to make dinner, feed 3 dogs, and keep yourself from gagging on the smells


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Even before we treated the UTI for the first time, her urine was fairly clear and had little to no foul smell. I only suggested it to the vet because we've had other dogs start a UTI with licking in that area and short multiple urinations. She hasn't been licking at all and she pees once when she goes out. I just don't know.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It sounds so stressful for you, I agree with returning her to the breeder. In spite of all the advice you are getting to treat her further, you bought what you thought was a healthy puppy and you aren’t equipped to deal with more diagnosis and treatment, especially since it may not reveal anything new.

Sometimes dogs are just more difficult to housebreak. My female rescue who I got at 4 months peed in the house until over 5 months. I think it was intentional that she peed on the older dog’s bed but never on her own. My male who is now 4 years and had Giardia and pano wasn’t fully housebroken until 5 months either. But given all the other problems, it’s your choice, not ours. Good luck. I hope returning the dog gives you some peace and no regrets.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Abx-resistant UTIs are definitely a thing now -- multiple rounds of treatment, with culture and sensitivity testing, seem to be more and more what's needed for many dogs. So I would rule that out before making any other decisions. 

I love that you are feeding it THK! That's such a good, smart choice for a sick dog. It's safe, high quality, and digests very easily. 

Once a dog is healthy, sometimes it takes a few different "resets" going back to the beginning of the house training. They all do get it eventually though.

I guess with the breeder, I'd really want to know what the breeder would do with her. Are they a big commercial operation? A respected hobby breeder? A BYB? I know some breeders in my region would just euthanize a pup with vet bills rather than dealing with treatment because you can't make a profit off a sick pup -- a few would even dump it at the city pound. OTOH, some good hobby breeders will empty their savings account to save a dog they brought into the world because they view it as a moral responsibility. Figuring out what fate awaits her upon return would be pretty important to me, if I were in your shoes.

In terms of rehoming on your own, your problem is that you've got a sick pup with ongoing vet needs, not just one not housetrained. Not many adopters looking for a puppy want to take that on (just as you don't). The cost of what you're feeding will also be unaffordable for a lot of people. Simply advertising the pup and rehoming on your own is unlikely to attract _really good_ homes -- and this pup needs a _really good_ home. There's a sky-high return rate on adopted GSD pups because they only get harder to raise when they hit adolescence. Your risk is that the people likely to not care about the pup's particular issues are people who will just stick her outside in the yard (and thus don't care about where she pees), and people who don't much care about vet bills because they don't take their dogs to the vet anyway. Please don't do that to her. The quality of the vet reference and home check REALLY matter on this kind of rehoming -- I'd want a stellar vet reference, showing high quality care of past serious medical conditions.

A breed rescue near you rescue MIGHT take a pup with unknown future vet bills, especially if they don't see pups come through rescue very often. There are rescues with long, long waiting lists of good homes wanting to adopt a puppy -- and there's a good chance with that kind of waiting list, one of those homes might take on a pup with "potty training issues" once the rescue unwinds the vetting situation. The key is whether you can find a good rescue that happens both to have the money to put into the pup and also an open foster home. (Foster homes for pups are actually harder to find that foster homes for adults because people who know the breed know what a pain in the tuckus puppies are. It takes a special kind of foster family to specialize in getting up in the middle of the night and working on land-sharkery.) If you go that route, BE SURE the rescue does good vetting -- some do, and others do not. 

Some rescue-oriented vets also take dogs as charity cases that clients can't afford to care for. They require signing ownership of the dog over to the clinic, and then they handle whatever vetting is needed, and find it a home (or a place in rescue). 

I hope your breeder is the sort of wonderful, loving person who will do right by this pup.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

We're in a holding pattern right now. Trying to figure out what's going on and if the UTI has returned. To add insult to injury, we also believe she's got demodex around her eyes. Not surprising given all she's been through. It's something we've dealt with in the past with one of our other dogs. Based on the pic, any other thoughts?
Magwart, those are all great points and things we are taking into account. Yesterday's post was probably an overreaction but this has been an incredibly frustrating journey. Every time we think we're heading in the right direction, something else pops up.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

I have Three female dogs (and one boy) right now. Females get UTIs much more often than males, especially while they are young and hormones are fluctuating.


I always schedule a follow up appointment 3-5 days after antibiotics are finished up before I even leave the vet’s office. There is no way to know if the infection is gone unless we check.

What you’re describing sounds exactly like a UTI relapse by the way.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, have you mentioned auto-immune disease to the vet?


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Ok, a couple thoughts...first, did an at home urine test FWIW, and it revealed all normal. I know that's not definitive, but if her UTI was that bad, I would think something would show up. Second, we're considering changing vets. The practice is gradually being handed over to a younger vet who is only a few years out of school. I've gone in there with ideas and suggestions and he's honestly kind of clueless. I've been the one driving the testing and possible issues. Although I like to think I've done enough research to have some theories, it would really be nice to have a trained professional driving this train. So....more to follow.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I feel your pain and frustration. But I have to say the pup did not choose u you chose her. I understand giving her back to the breeder to deal with her issues and IMO it could ge all genetic but no guarantee on the issues you are dealing with.

I will say stress can contribute to her problems as well. You are all stressed out and your pup can feel it on top of her own stress.
I will not state my opinion on what you should do or not do but what ever decision you make make it on what is best for HER not YOU.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Ok, so a few minutes ago we had her out in the kitchen playing with us and a toy. While she was walking around the kitchen she was leaking urine all over. No squatting and she had just peed 10 minutes before. She was not playing hard or overstimulated. Obviously something is going on. Still sound like a UTI or something more??


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Sounds like she needs more follow up care. Something is not right. If you don’t want to continue her care and accept her issues call the breeder and send her back if not please give her the best care you can.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Left messages with breeder. Nothing back so she's our responsibility.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

buddyr93 said:


> Ok, so a few minutes ago we had her out in the kitchen playing with us and a toy. While she was walking around the kitchen she was leaking urine all over. No squatting and she had just peed 10 minutes before. She was not playing hard or overstimulated. Obviously something is going on. Still sound like a UTI or something more??


I know you are frustrated and annoyed at spending money and cleaning up messes but please remember this puppy can't help it. Obviously something is going on.

By the way are you familiar with submissive and excited urination and how that looks? I have no doubt all these other thibgs, uti and housebreaking, are also factors. But it is possible that there could also be a bit of submissive urination, esp since you are so frustrated. And it is involuntary.

Please take her back to the vet, new vet if you think that is best. I have seen dogs with bad allergies whose eyes looked like that pic you posted.

Please try to remember this is a sick baby who came from apparently a crummy breeder who does not care about her. So breeder also likely did not care about the health of the dogs she allowed to breed and produce this pup.

None of this is the puppy's fault, she is a total victim in all this. Right now, she has nobody in the world but you.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I know you are frustrated and annoyed at spending money and cleaning up messes but please remember this puppy can't help it. Obviously something is going on.
> 
> By the way are you familiar with submissive and excited urination and how that looks? I have no doubt all these other thibgs, uti and housebreaking, are also factors. But it is possible that there could also be a bit of submissive urination, esp since you are so frustrated. And it is involuntary.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with everything you are saying. Definitely seen submissive/excited urination before and this is definitely not it. We are in for a penny in for a pound at this point so we will get her taken care of. I'm thinking of just getting a referral to an internist rather than messing around with our vet. Believe it or not, the breeder we got her from is or was VERY reputable with many very positive reviews and recommendations on here and other places. I know he's also had health issues in the past so that may be causing the lack of communication. Every dog we've bought has come from quality breeders after much research. Either way, we're moving on from trying to rehome her. It is not her fault. She and we were dealt a really crappy hand and we've got to figure things out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you give your breeder time to call you back??

leaking urine is odd. Exactly what testing has the vet done for her urinary tract? Was there a sterile sample w/ culture for bacteria and antibiotic sensitivity? Was her physical anatomy checked for things like a recessed vulva?

How are you going to rehome a puppy with health issues? What does the contract from the breeder say?


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I had my frustrations but yours seem to be on a whole other level. I also can't help but feel bad for that puppy too.

I would get that 2nd and 3rd opinion. My experience with vets are they don't always know everything. Even they have to get "consultations" from other vets. Someone is bound to figure this out for you. And I agree with you...with a vet just out of school, I would find another one.

As far as the peeing in the house is concerned....mine didn't completely stop doing it in the house until sometime around 6 months. I kept a pretty detailed pee/poop log. It helped me keep track of his schedule. When I was at home, I had him tethered to me. When he got into position to pee, I picked him up and ran out the door to the same spot. If I walked him out, most likely, he would've gone on the floor as we're racing out. So I always picked him up. I'm sure you know all this since you've had dogs before. My whole point is that mine took a lot longer than 4 months. If 4 months is the average time it takes for a dog to be potty trained, then there are some that do it faster....and some that take longer. Mine was one of the "longer" ones. Maybe yours is too, perhaps?


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Did you give your breeder time to call you back??
> 
> leaking urine is odd. Exactly what testing has the vet done for her urinary tract? Was there a sterile sample w/ culture for bacteria and antibiotic sensitivity? Was her physical anatomy checked for things like a recessed vulva?
> 
> ...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think that's a good plan. what area are you in again? Maybe someone has a recommendation.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> I think that's a good plan. what area are you in again? Maybe someone has a recommendation.


We're in SW Ohio. Might try Ohio State vet school if we can get an appt.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I know you are frustrated and annoyed at spending money and cleaning up messes but please remember this puppy can't help it. Obviously something is going on.
> 
> By the way are you familiar with submissive and excited urination and how that looks? I have no doubt all these other thibgs, uti and housebreaking, are also factors. But it is possible that there could also be a bit of submissive urination, esp since you are so frustrated. And it is involuntary.
> 
> ...


A new vet or a specialist can be a huge help. I've also kind of easted money to be told what my country vet had already said but I think for you guys it could be great.

My vets went around in circles failing to treat a chronic ear in my old dog. I dropped about 600 bucks at a specialist but the ear problem improved by 90% and quickly.

The specialist cultured it and made a tx specifically for her, WHAT a difference.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> A new vet or a specialist can be a huge help. I've also kind of easted money to be told what my country vet had already said but I think for you guys it could be great.
> 
> My vets went around in circles failing to treat a chronic ear in my old dog. I dropped about 600 bucks at a specialist but the ear problem improved by 90% and quickly.
> 
> The specialist cultured it and made a tx specifically for her, WHAT a difference.


And I think that's what we need at this point especially if there is something physiologically wrong with her.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I think your state vet school is an EXCELLENT plan. You'll find an internist there and they have the equipment on sight to do whatever diagnostics are needed. If something more than a UTI is going on, they'll be able to figure it out.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Did they do a blood test? I didn’t reread all the posts. I just heard from a friend whose older dog had a similar situation and it was diabetes. I don’t know if it’s possible for a puppy to have that, though. Her dog is 9 and is part husky.

I also like the idea of going to the vet school. They will love problem solving much more than the average office vet does.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Did they do a blood test? I didn’t reread all the posts. I just heard from a friend whose older dog had a similar situation and it was diabetes. I don’t know if it’s possible for a puppy to have that, though. Her dog is 9 and is part husky.
> 
> I also like the idea of going to the vet school. They will love problem solving much more than the average office vet does.


So, we had a full GI panel done a few weeks ago to find our what her digestive issues were. Folate level suggested SIBO but nothing else was out of normal limits. Her digestive issues have been under control since we put her on The Honest Kitchen, probiotics, digestive enzyme, slippery elm and colostrum.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That is a good direction. My older dog has IBS and THK grain free fixed It. She was still scratching, so I started using only filtered water to mix her food and she’s not scratching. It’s only been three days and I noticed results.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm with Magwart. If I had these issues, I would be headed for Cornell or Penn State.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I've unfortunately waited over a month to get an appointment with a specialist, and I called literally 3 different places within a 4 hr drive of me and all had similar wait time. That was for dermatology. They might see you faster for something like this.

But I just wanted to suggest again that maybe you should consider trying to litter train her in some way to help her in maintaining any cleanliness of herself that she possibly can, so that you maybe have a better chance fixing the dirty problem once the physical problems are gone. I don't know if it is possible for you or even if other people think that's a good idea. But if it were my dog I'd be trying to set her up some way to keep herself clean if she can't hold it. A crate no bigger than body size is fine for a healthy puppy but she isn't healthy, and I think her sitting in it is going to make things worse. If it were my dog I'd put her in an in and out kennel so she could toilet herself outside 24/7 but I know that's not realistic for most people. 

Someone suggested a baby pool to me for my old dog when I was trying to figure out how to deal with the fact that she had to go potty all night long, every night (due to a medical condition). I simply could not keep up with it, so I was faced with either teaching her to toilet on litter or having her sleep in an in and out run. A dog door was not an option for us for a couple of reasons and I sort of doubt it would solve your problem either.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've unfortunately waited over a month to get an appointment with a specialist, and I called literally 3 different places within a 4 hr drive of me and all had similar wait time. That was for dermatology. They might see you faster for something like this.
> 
> But I just wanted to suggest again that maybe you should consider trying to litter train her in some way to help her in maintaining any cleanliness of herself that she possibly can, so that you maybe have a better chance fixing the dirty problem once the physical problems are gone. I don't know if it is possible for you or even if other people think that's a good idea. But if it were my dog I'd be trying to set her up some way to keep herself clean if she can't hold it. A crate no bigger than body size is fine for a healthy puppy but she isn't healthy, and I think her sitting in it is going to make things worse. If it were my dog I'd put her in an in and out kennel so she could toilet herself outside 24/7 but I know that's not realistic for most people.
> 
> Someone suggested a baby pool to me for my old dog when I was trying to figure out how to deal with the fact that she had to go potty all night long, every night (due to a medical condition). I simply could not keep up with it, so I was faced with either teaching her to toilet on litter or having her sleep in an in and out run. A dog door was not an option for us for a couple of reasons and I sort of doubt it would solve your problem either.


So here's the thing. She does not (knock on wood) eliminate in her crate at night and that's around 8 hours. The last two times it was when we had her in the kitchen, out of her crate and she just started leaking all over. The time before that, it was during the day and she'd just been out. My wife was at the sink and heard dripping. Looked over and she had made a large puddle in her crate. There was no whining or signal at all. That's why I'm saying it's more like incontinence than not knowing she can't go in the house or in her crate.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> That is a good direction. My older dog has IBS and THK grain free fixed It. She was still scratching, so I started using only filtered water to mix her food and she’s not scratching. It’s only been three days and I noticed results.


Really?! Filtered water? Like Brita or something like that? I'm going to have to give that a try.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

tc68 said:


> Really?! Filtered water? Like Brita or something like that? I'm going to have to give that a try.


Yes a Brita pitcher. It works amazingly well. Before I got it, I thought if it doesn’t work for the dogs, at least we can use it. I got the idea from someone here, don’t even remember who now, so I can’t give them credit.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Ok, it just happened again. She was in the kitchen with us, laying around and chewing on her kong. She had just been out to pee. She had no idea she was going so at this point, I'm saying it's definitely incontinence and not her not knowing any better. So, to the vet on Monday and hopefully we can figure this out whether it's still a UTI or bladder infection or something else. I feel like an ass because it's clearly not her fault. Wish us luck!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

buddyr93 said:


> So here's the thing. She does not (knock on wood) eliminate in her crate at night and that's around 8 hours. The last two times it was when we had her in the kitchen, out of her crate and she just started leaking all over. The time before that, it was during the day and she'd just been out. My wife was at the sink and heard dripping. Looked over and she had made a large puddle in her crate. There was no whining or signal at all. That's why I'm saying it's more like incontinence than not knowing she can't go in the house or in her crate.


I don't know, not all puppies are that great at signalling. My lab puppy's last time peeing the floor he just let it rip, he did not make any indication he just peed his puppy pants.

So if she has the urgency due to uti I could totally believe she just kind of peed her pants without really knowing it was about to happen or how to try to tell someone.

I'd just be trying to keep her as empty as possible.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

buddyr93 said:


> Ok, it just happened again. She was in the kitchen with us, laying around and chewing on her kong. She had just been out to pee. She had no idea she was going so at this point, I'm saying it's definitely incontinence and not her not knowing any better. So, to the vet on Monday and hopefully we can figure this out whether it's still a UTI or bladder infection or something else. I feel like an ass because it's clearly not her fault. Wish us luck!


Why do you say she had no idea she was going?

Hopefully it is just the uti is back and needs better treatment


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Why do you say she had no idea she was going?
> 
> Hopefully it is just the uti is back and needs better treatment


I'm thinking she doesn't know because she was leaking while she was lying down and then continued when she got up. No squatting, no nothing. It's like it was just leaking out of her and she was oblivious. The other thing is when she does go outside it always seems like it is a very small amount so I'm thinking something is preventing her from completely voiding. Hoping it's just a UTI too.


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

I haven't read all the posts in detail so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something. There is a possibility from what you describe that it could be re-occuring UTI, it's pretty common and might just need a tougher anti-biotic regimen. It also might be that she could have some kind of deformity that causes the incontinence, it could be just her female anatomy is under-formed and it will get better with age, or has your vet considered that it might be an ectopic ureter(s)? That would be true incontinence (but fixable). I think re-occurring bladder infections can sometimes be a concurrent issue caused by this. However, I don't know how that would fit into addressing the pooping in crate, SIBO etc.

In my current puppy he seemed to leak a lot just randomly for no reason (I'm no stranger to potty training), I was getting slightly concerned, but actually it went away without treatment - he's almost 6 months now. My best advice would be to try not let it stress you out too much and if you can make any changes in living arrangements to where it causes the least headache. I had my husband install tile flooring downstairs so I could just forget about the blood (from heats), the mud, the puppy pee, etc. The mop is on standby 24/7!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

buddyr93 said:


> So here's the thing. She does not (knock on wood) eliminate in her crate at night and that's around 8 hours. The last two times it was when we had her in the kitchen, out of her crate and she just started leaking all over. The time before that, it was during the day and she'd just been out. My wife was at the sink and heard dripping. Looked over and she had made a large puddle in her crate. There was no whining or signal at all. That's why I'm saying it's more like incontinence than not knowing she can't go in the house or in her crate.


I'm joining this party late. But as this thread has progressed, I have leaned towards incontinence as well. I have a girl with incontinence, it started early (but not as early as your pup). In the beginning, the leaks happened during times of relaxation and happiness. She would often feel shame. 
I think this may be a theory worth exploring.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

buddyr93 said:


> I'm thinking she doesn't know because she was leaking while she was lying down and then continued when she got up. No squatting, no nothing. It's like it was just leaking out of her and she was oblivious. The other thing is when she does go outside it always seems like it is a very small amount so I'm thinking something is preventing her from completely voiding. Hoping it's just a UTI too.


Hmm. Yeah, one of mine became temporarily incontinent on high doses of prednisone. It was kind of like what you describe.

One day I came home and she stood up out of the bed to come see me and there was just pee coming out of her. She walked across the room just peeing all the way across the room. 

I had to keep her in diapers during that time because it was just impossible not to ruin the house. I put depends inside bitch panties and it got most of it. I also put big washable pee pads everywhere she laid down


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

Internist. Either the local university vet school or an experienced internal medicine expert nearby. (I prefer the latter, but your choice)

Find a veterinary specialist


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Kari01 said:


> I haven't read all the posts in detail so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something. There is a possibility from what you describe that it could be re-occuring UTI, it's pretty common and might just need a tougher anti-biotic regimen. It also might be that she could have some kind of deformity that causes the incontinence, it could be just her female anatomy is under-formed and it will get better with age, or has your vet considered that it might be an ectopic ureter(s)? That would be true incontinence (but fixable). I think re-occurring bladder infections can sometimes be a concurrent issue caused by this. However, I don't know how that would fit into addressing the pooping in crate, SIBO etc.
> 
> In my current puppy he seemed to leak a lot just randomly for no reason (I'm no stranger to potty training), I was getting slightly concerned, but actually it went away without treatment - he's almost 6 months now. My best advice would be to try not let it stress you out too much and if you can make any changes in living arrangements to where it causes the least headache. I had my husband install tile flooring downstairs so I could just forget about the blood (from heats), the mud, the puppy pee, etc. The mop is on standby 24/7!


When I take her to the vet next week I'll have a list of things we need to check for. Again, hopefully, it's just a recurrence of the UTI, but I think I have a game plan to explore further if necessary. Thank you!


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

CeraDean said:


> I'm joining this party late. But as this thread has progressed, I have leaned towards incontinence as well. I have a girl with incontinence, it started early (but not as early as your pup). In the beginning, the leaks happened during times of relaxation and happiness. She would often feel shame.
> I think this may be a theory worth exploring.


Yup, relaxation and happiness. That's exactly when it's happening with her.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hmm. Yeah, one of mine became temporarily incontinent on high doses of prednisone. It was kind of like what you describe.
> 
> One day I came home and she stood up out of the bed to come see me and there was just pee coming out of her. She walked across the room just peeing all the way across the room.
> 
> I had to keep her in diapers during that time because it was just impossible not to ruin the house. I put depends inside bitch panties and it got most of it. I also put big washable pee pads everywhere she laid down


Luckily we've got vinyl plank flooring so while pee on the floor is inconvenient, it's not the end of the world. It's just hard to have her out and play when she's peeing all over!


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

4K9Mom said:


> Internist. Either the local university vet school or an experienced internal medicine expert nearby. (I prefer the latter, but your choice)
> 
> Find a veterinary specialist


Concur!


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## choka162 (Jan 26, 2020)

Fellow SW Ohio person chiming in! I've heard OSU is fantastic but I've never used them. I have used the Cincinnati Medvet for things I thought were out of my regular vet's capabilities and I've been happy with them. My shepherd had chronic UTI's and sometimes it's just a matter of finding out which particular antibiotic will clear it up. We always did a course of antibiotics and then retested after 2 weeks. I haven't seen this mentioned but you can also try using MalAcetic wipes on her bits after she goes potty and see if that helps. You can get them at your vet or chewy or amazon and they can be a big help.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

choka162 said:


> Fellow SW Ohio person chiming in! I've heard OSU is fantastic but I've never used them. I have used the Cincinnati Medvet for things I thought were out of my regular vet's capabilities and I've been happy with them. My shepherd had chronic UTI's and sometimes it's just a matter of finding out which particular antibiotic will clear it up. We always did a course of antibiotics and then retested after 2 weeks. I haven't seen this mentioned but you can also try using MalAcetic wipes on her bits after she goes potty and see if that helps. You can get them at your vet or chewy or amazon and they can be a big help.


Thank you for chiming in. We used the Dayton Medvet for one of our older dogs and weren't terribly happy with them. But, maybe we'll try the Cincinnati one. Will definitely try the wipes as well.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think it is really possible that physical issues caused a behavioral problem: dirty puppy. Meaning she couldn't help but pee and poop all the time then sit in it because of her physical problem. But she also became desensitized to sitting in her own mess and now she doesn't care.
> 
> Assuming her physical problems are legitimately resolved then you have to address the dirty problem.
> 
> Big job. I don't envy you.


I concur. It doesn't take long for a pup to get used to being dirty. It can be a bit of a challenge to get past. Be thankful it's a girl. Dirty boy pups are horrendous!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope she grows out of it without any further treatment. It does sound terribly frustrating. She isn't spayed yet is she? And that won't help. I do wonder if there is something wrong with the formation of the vulva. Someone said, keep the puppy empty. I can't go with that. It is ok to take the water away in the evening to get a dry night, but you do not want a dehydrated puppy. She has to drink. In fact with problems like UTIs and diarrhea they need to drink. I agree that this is in no way her fault or yours. It is possible though that she will come out of this intact and be a great pet for you all. I hope that is the case.


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## Vara (Aug 11, 2019)

When I choose a dog, I take my time and just sit there for an hour among puppies and do nothing, I throw a key at a corner, observe (which one's go explore, which ones are startled, the ones afraid), thus in that hour or so (or longer if I take a nap), I find out a lot about the characters. Once I chose mine, I keep it, if parasites or no parasites or other issues, I have bonded with it and will do all I can, in a severe case (Had none) I would expect breeder to do all in his/her powers to help, but I would take care of it from that point on, basically a family member the second I put the dog in the car.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I hope she grows out of it without any further treatment. It does sound terribly frustrating. She isn't spayed yet is she? And that won't help. I do wonder if there is something wrong with the formation of the vulva. Someone said, keep the puppy empty. I can't go with that. It is ok to take the water away in the evening to get a dry night, but you do not want a dehydrated puppy. She has to drink. In fact with problems like UTIs and diarrhea they need to drink. I agree that this is in no way her fault or yours. It is possible though that she will come out of this intact and be a great pet for you all. I hope that is the case.


I think I said keep her as empty as possible but what I meant was, potty her outside a lot, not with hold water. I think with holding water is contrary to clearing up uti?

Anyway. I meant, take her out as often as you would an 8 week old. Not with holding from the other end.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Getting eyes (which have gotten a lot worse) and urinary issues checked out further today. While we're trying to deal with all this, there's still another possible problem looming. Yes, we started off rough with GI issues, but she's had no problems eating/digesting, etc. in quite a while. However, she's 17 weeks and weighs only 26 lbs. She is thin/lean but does not look underfed or underweight in proportion to her size. Slow growth is good, but I think she's pretty far off a "good" growth curve. My guess is there may be growth/developmental issues we'll be dealing with in the future. And the misery train continues.....you know what they say about hindsight!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If she's healthy, I wouldn't get caught up in size. My female is 18 months, 50# and just made standard in height. That is not always a gauge of health or developmental issues.


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

How many lbs has she been putting on per week? Or overall in the last month or so? That would be more important than total weight. How much do you feed her? My female was 36lbs at 17 weeks, but she is extremely large for a female (and she didn't have any GI issues setting her back), so you're really not that far off standard.

What's the problem with her eyes? Maybe I missed this, sorry.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

My guy was tiny, like teeny tiny. (10-15 lbs smaller than his littermate sisters). The breeder and I expected that _maybe_ he’d break 60 lbs. He is currently 79 lbs and still growing at 11 mos. I WANT slow consistent growth. 

If your girl is eating good food, and growing consistently (even if slowly), I’d have the internist check out her gi system but not be too worried about that. 

It’s easy to fall into catastrophic thinking with sick puppies, but our anxiety gets transferred to them.

Keep a journal of everything that is unusual to discuss with her vet, but try to keep in mind that our babies are have all sorts of hormones surging through their bodies. Their immune systems are immature. It’s not uncommon for odd stuff to pop up.

I have a vet clinic with a couple vets I absolutely trust, and so I can text them or drop in for a quick visit if I get concerned (I tend to err on the side of caution). I think it would be really helpful for you to find someone like that, even if you have to drive a decent distance once you’ve seen the internist. I literally have veterinarians up and down the west coast, depending on the specialty. Is it insane to drive that far? Sure, but I just need experts I personally trust.

Maybe someone here can give you recommendations for someone local-ish.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> If she's healthy, I wouldn't get caught up in size. My female is 18 months, 50# and just made standard in height. That is not always a gauge of health or developmental issues.


I nevert get caught up in size or want the biggest dog. However, when considering her line, parents and litter mates, she is definitely smaller than she would/should be. My only concern is that she is or was somehow stunted by everything going on. I know I need to be patient and wait and see.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Kari01 said:


> How many lbs has she been putting on per week? Or overall in the last month or so? That would be more important than total weight. How much do you feed her? My female was 36lbs at 17 weeks, but she is extremely large for a female (and she didn't have any GI issues setting her back), so you're really not that far off standard.
> 
> What's the problem with her eyes? Maybe I missed this, sorry.


Day after we brought her home at 8 weeks she was 16 lbs. At 17 weeks, she's 26 lbs. She's gained about a pound in the last week and a half. Her parents are on the larger size.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Kari01 said:


> How many lbs has she been putting on per week? Or overall in the last month or so? That would be more important than total weight. How much do you feed her? My female was 36lbs at 17 weeks, but she is extremely large for a female (and she didn't have any GI issues setting her back), so you're really not that far off standard.
> 
> What's the problem with her eyes? Maybe I missed this, sorry.


Might be mange. Might be infection. Treating and hoping for mange at this point but her eyelids are extremely swollen, lot of clear discharge. She looks awful.


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

Interested to hear what the vet thinks. I know it must feel overwhelming for you right now, but you are doing everything right. I sincerely hope it turns out to be a bunch of concurrent minor issues. Puppies do tend to get a lot of minor things, and one infection can suppress the immune system enough to allow another to set in. Fingers crossed she starts to get a bit better soon (or they can at least really pin point what is going on!).


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Kari01 said:


> Interested to hear what the vet thinks. I know it must feel overwhelming for you right now, but you are doing everything right. I sincerely hope it turns out to be a bunch of concurrent minor issues. Puppies do tend to get a lot of minor things, and one infection can suppress the immune system enough to allow another to set in. Fingers crossed she starts to get a bit better soon (or they can at least really pin point what is going on!).


Thank you. Fingers crossed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My dog was 13 lbs at 8 weeks. He had Giardia and no one realized it at the time. Once it all cleared up he put weight on and now is 77 lbs, where his ideal weight for his size is 70 lbs. he gets exercise and he is intact and very muscular so I don’t worry either way.


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## Petra's Dad (Jan 6, 2020)

buddyr93 said:


> Might be mange. Might be infection. Treating and hoping for mange at this point but her eyelids are extremely swollen, lot of clear discharge. She looks awful.


This could be a symptom of an allergy. This combined with the hair loss makes it seem even more plausible. Have you tried anything to rule out or treat allergies at this point? We have used steroid eye drops before with our dog who has mild allergies and gets a clear discharge in his eye and they seem to help quite a bit.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Allergy symptom! That's logical. So odd others with the same experience didn't post that before! You could check into that, buddyr93.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Allergy symptom! That's logical. So odd others with the same experience didn't post that before! You could check into that, buddyr93.


Good idea. Only problem is that if it's a food allergy we're screwed anyway. Don't have a whole lot of options there right now with her GI issues.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

buddyr93 said:


> Good idea. Only problem is that if it's a food allergy we're screwed anyway. Don't have a whole lot of options there right now with her GI issues.


GI issues are very common with food sensitivities. I haven't read most of the 96 comments. I'm aware you have been struggling with health issues with this pup from day one. 
I have an "allergy" dog. True food allergies in dogs are rare but food sensitivities are very common. Symptoms can vary from mild skin and or GI issues to severe health issues with GI, skin, eyes and ears. 
Have you tried a hydrolyzed protein vet prescription diet? It's a really good way to determine if any or all of your pups health issues are food related. 70% of the immune system is in the gut. If gut health is compromised overall health is compromised. Young pups are hit especially hard by this if the GI tract is inflamed due to food intolerance. They suffer from malabsorption of nutrients that further compromises the whole body. 
If you have tried a hypoallergenic diet already ignore me... if you haven't I would discuss with your vet and give it a try.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Vet couldn't find any mites in the skin scrapings but putting her on Bravecto just in case. Also abx ointment for her eye and testing for roundworm. It actually looks a little better today. Full urine panel being done and probably won't get that back till Monday. If that shows nothing, it's on to the internist for full exam.

Springbrz, understand what you're saying but believe it or not, when we were having the serious GI issues, it was kibble that seemed to trigger it. The only thing she could eat without having diarrhea was cooked chicken and rice. Every time we introduced kibble (small amounts gradually of several different brands), she started to have loose stool and was pooping in her crate, etc. So, then we tried The Honest Kitchen and haven't had any GI issues since. We are on the whole grain and chicken variety but I may do a transition to the turkey to see if that clears anything up. I've had dogs with allergies before and the hydrolyzed protein ($$$$) diet did not help them. It was a matter of finding the right food with the right protein.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Everyone always focuses on the protein. Seger is allergic to white potatoes and green beans. Also, when you look at proteins, chicken and turkey are very similar proteins and may have a cross over reaction IF that is the cause. So if you are going to switch from chicken I wouldn't go to turkey. Water fowl such as duck might work. Beef would be an option, or pork.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Ziva can have fewer things than she can't and label reading is a must. She can't have most proteins but it's the legumes that tend to present the biggest challenge. So many foods and treats have peas, lentils, chickpeas, peanuts or soybean oil in them. One thing I also found problematic was the oil. If chicken is an issue and a food or treat has chicken fat as an ingredient it can be enough to cause issues. Same with fish oils. Salmon oil is great unless your dog can't have fish of any type. 
Food sensitivities are one of the worst things to figure out.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dogs who are allergic to chicken can be allergic to all feathered animals. You have to test with trial and error. The only food I would stay away from now is rabbit, because if you decide to try a novel protein the only one available in a prescription is rabbit and potato. Mine at one point got a reaction to white rice and pumpkin. His skin cleared up a lot when I switched to filtered water. They can be allergic to anything, just like humans can.


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## Chiefg1966 (Feb 29, 2020)

4K9Mom said:


> A dirty dog can be turned around though. I got one of those. It took several months of being fastidious and consistent.
> 
> First, absolutely no absorbent crate pads. No pillows, no stuffies, no blankets.
> 
> ...


My female came with anxioty issues n insecure but shes gotten a bit better..it is easyer with a more trained dog but if your consistent takes more work but passing her on would be sad.so staying n working with her. Just have to be creative n with time..shes definatly teaching me patients n love


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Just got the urine panel results back. No infections, etc. but pH was 8.5 and struvite crystals present. Going to start on some type of cranberry product. Any suggestions?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

buddyr93 said:


> Just got the urine panel results back. No infections, etc. but pH was 8.5 and struvite crystals present. Going to start on some type of cranberry product. Any suggestions?


What was your vet's suggestion for treatment?

For UTI's, I use D-mannose which is a sugar derived from cranberries. There are studies supporting the use of d-mannose for bacteria, specifically e-coli. But I can't find any in a quick search for crystals. I did find this though connecting bacteria with the formation of struvite crystals. So maybe D-Mannose will work for that as well? I buy the NOW D-Mannose. It's a bottle of powder. It's sugar so humidity will make it clump up.









The association between bacteria and urinary stones


Urinary stone disease (USD) is an increasing clinical problem in both children and adults. One in ten individuals will experience a urinary stone, yet the mechanisms responsible for urinary stones remain largely unknown. Bacteria have long been recognized ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





These are stones and could be causing discomfort which could be contributing to the house breaking issue?

I've always found this to be a helpful site




__





DogAware.com Articles: Struvite Crystals & Stones






dogaware.com













Urinary Tract Infections in Pets | NASC LIVE


Bringing pets into our families provides us with companionship, affection and love, but this relationship also requires rules for cohabitating.…Read More




nasc.cc





https:// onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1541-4337.12211
"d-Mannose: Properties, Production, and Applications: An Overview"


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> What was your vet's suggestion for treatment?
> 
> For UTI's, I use D-mannose which is a sugar derived from cranberries. There are studies supporting the use of d-mannose for bacteria, specifically e-coli. But I can't find any in a quick search for crystals. I did find this though connecting bacteria with the formation of struvite crystals. So maybe D-Mannose will work for that as well? I buy the NOW D-Mannose. It's a bottle of powder. It's sugar so humidity will make it clump up.
> 
> ...


So, not a UTI but pretty high pH which I guess causes the crystals. Vet suggested we could try a urine acidifier but it can be tricky getting to the right pH level without going too far and causing different crystals. I've been using NOW D-Mannose for a while now as you recommended but maybe I wasn't using enough? I did see the struvite crystals can cause incontinence and UTI issues, so it just might be the source of the problem. How much D-Mannose do you think I should be using for her. She's roughly 27-28 lbs. Thanks!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

This article might be helpful to you









Urine Trouble - Whole Dog Journal


My 2-1/2 year old spayed female Akita is showing a pattern of recurring bladder infections. An ultrasound showed scar tissue from a long-term infection before I adopted her from a rescue group. When she gets an infection, there is blood in her urine and the pH is 9.0. I understand there is a...




www.whole-dog-journal.com


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Springbrz said:


> This article might be helpful to you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great article. Started her with some ACV last night. Plan is to give her that and cranberry extract and see if that helps. I'm holding off on the internist for now as I'd rather not drop another thousand bucks chasing down something that might not even be there. Not surprisingly, I've already spent more on vet bills than we paid for the dog. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you read the article


buddyr93 said:


> How much D-Mannose do you think I should be using for her.


How much are you giving her? I would do at least 1 tsp 3x day.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Did you read the article
> 
> 
> How much are you giving her? I would do at least 1 tsp 3x day.


Ok, was not giving nearly that much. Time to bump it up. Thanks Jax!


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