# How are these corrections using a head halter less aversive than a prong collar



## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

The late Sophia Yin in this video is using leash pressure and what I see as corrections via a head halter to control a reactive dog. I know that she was always opposed to prong collars, but it is my understanding that the muzzle is much more pain sensitive than the neck and she seems to be yanking up repeatedly. 

She also calls this R-. I watched the video several times, and I do see a bit of negative reinforcement when she releases pressure when the dog looks up, but to me, many of the yanks seem to be P+ i.e. a classic correction.

I just see so many contradictions in "force-free trainers" as they say one thing, but do another for the sake of marketing purposes.

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A head halter and a "Bag O Treats!" I would ... "NEVER" use that crap on one of my dogs or dogs under my care. That looks 
like a serious "Neck Injury" waiting to happen ... if used on the wrong dog! I just say no to "Petsmart Solutions" for badly behaved dogs ... unless they sell the "Pet Convincer" there also.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I haven't used a head halter and I never plan to (of course, never say never...I thought that about the prong too). All tools attached to a leash use aversion in some form or fashion. If the dog doesn't go where you want him to go, it gets uncomfortable. basic.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I'd rather go back to a choker before ever, ever using a head halter or a feel-good-harness


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kazel said:


> I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.


Yep ... "On Paper" that is how it's suppose to work. 

"Tools" of that sort "are suppose to "Self Correct The Dog." So in theory one would not be "yanking on the dog's neck." Sounds good on paper but best used with ... the right dog??? But ... in the real world, with the wrong dog and the wrong owner ... it works more like this. :






I will say, I am impressed that Sean kept that, uh ... thing on the dogs head! And it was not really much of a factor, course he used a "PC" for corrections and the head thing did not really play much of a role, in what he did.

I flatter myself, but I think I could have done the same thing "without the PC???" Of course ... I'd have taken the Head Halter thing, off the heads, wadded it into a ball and fashioned a makeshift SLL out of the other end! Not sure if that would count thou???


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

That dogs initial reaction was pretty mild. My wife tried using a head halter on Zoey years ago and her reaction was severe. I'm sure they work well for some dogs, just not mine.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Baillif said:


> Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.


My issue is not that she is using a head halter with R- or P+, but the fact that she and other force-free trainers encourage using head halters over prong collars when head halters are just as aversive and maybe even more aversive than a prong. This is just hypocrisy.

Now to be fair to Sophia Yin, she did not oppose prongs and ecollars as a last resort. But the misinformation that is being propagated by force-free trainers is truly ridiculous. And then you have force-free trainers that are even more extreme than her that believe under no circumstances should you use an aversive. The closest thing to an aversive for them is negative punishment i.e. withholding a reward or a time-out.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.


Aww at times ... your just too neutral, I like it ... but not something I struggle with.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

LOL, these dogs are soft wanna be bully's, they just need a _"Talk With Jesus"_ moment.


And then simple consistency! Follow up with ......Fairness and Consistency.

My god, these are soft dogs! What would these people do with a Real Dog? 


A *Hard Dog*, well...that requires a _"Talk with Satan"_ moment, but not to worry, 99% of people will never encounter a *Hard Dog*.



Kim


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I'd rather go back to a choker before ever, ever using a head halter or a feel-good-harness


What is a feel-good-harness?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't have a problem with someone being a hypocrite and recording the proof so I can point and laugh.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

KaiserAus said:


> What is a feel-good-harness?


Easy Walker,Wonder Walker Gentle 'whatever' Walker; mostly to make people feel good. They are managing tools, not teaching.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Easy Walker,Wonder Walker Gentle 'whatever' Walker; mostly to make people feel good. They are managing tools, not teaching.


Managing tools ... I like that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> LOL, these dogs are soft wanna be bully's, they just need a _"Talk With Jesus"_ moment.
> 
> 
> And then simple consistency! Follow up with ......Fairness and Consistency.
> ...


What about ... "Medium Hard???" The only dog to get past me and to Rocky ... at night, so uh total darkness ... I can't see in the dark, I messed up! But she did not do what the other dogs were doing?? Barking at the fence ... she slipped out??? She got in a quick hit and disappeared back into the dark ... ticked me off big time!!!


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Baillif said:


> I don't have a problem with someone being a hypocrite and recording the proof so I can point and laugh.


I liked your comment and then unliked it so people would not interpret me as being mean spirited as Sophia Yin took her own life several years ago. I picked her video because I think it happens to be one of the best examples of some of the serious fallacies and inconsistencies in the force-free training movement as a whole. There are force free trainers that I respect who admit to their limitations as trainers and will refer out cases they cannot handle to balanced trainers. Unfortunately, the majority of them seem to be evangelical extremists.

I would be interested in viewing a video of Zak George being taken down by a Rottweiler after forcing treats and hugs down its throat.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Easy Walker,Wonder Walker Gentle 'whatever' Walker; mostly to make people feel good. They are managing tools, not teaching.


And they also cause gait abnormalities, especially the front clipping harnesses.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Wolfhund said:


> I liked your comment and then unliked it so people would not interpret me as being mean spirited as Sophia Yin took her own life several years ago. I picked her video because I think it happens to be one of the best examples of some of the serious fallacies and inconsistencies in the force-free training movement as a whole. There are force free trainers that I respect who admit to their limitations as trainers and will refer out cases they cannot handle to balanced trainers. Unfortunately, the majority of them seem to be evangelical extremists.
> 
> I would be interested in viewing a video of Zak George being taken down by a Rottweiler after forcing treats and hugs down its throat.


I don't think anybody watches your likes that closely lol.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Easy Walker,Wonder Walker Gentle 'whatever' Walker; mostly to make people feel good. They are managing tools, not teaching.


Ah ok. But can't they be used to manage the situation whilst teaching the required action?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

KaiserAus said:


> Ah ok. But can't they be used to manage the situation whilst teaching the required action?


Harnesses are useless for encouraging dogs to walk nicely which is what most people want. They're made for being used for a dog to pull something, so it makes sense that they don't really ya know, help a dog to stop pulling on a leash. I watched a laby yesterday actually who had her dog on a harness. It was pulling and throwing it's whole weight onto the leash lunging at things such as cars and other people walking. (Not aggressively mind you but definitely a worked up excitable dog that doesn't know how to walk nice.) I guess it helps the owner get more excercise though, having to hold on to that.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Kazel said:
> 
> 
> > I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.
> ...


I have considered having my dog do a board and train with Sean 

My cattle dog is extremely leash reactive to dogs and sometimes people. If we use a gentle leader she isn't reactive and can actually walk past a dog on the same sidewalk LOL I know it's fear based but I would love for her to be able to become more confident and actually enjoy a dogs company like she used to.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

When I've asked people, it's mostly just the look of the prong that turns them off. It does look horrible, I'll admit that. The harnesses and halters look better to pet people, so they get used. They aren't really thinking a whole lot about whether the dog likes it or not. Aesthetics. 

I see so many dogs in harnesses now, I think it is the new trend. I don't really care as long as the dog isn't out of control.

I don't like head halters because the dogs hate them so much. I'd go with an e-collar for sure well before a head halter, teach the dog. Don't manage it. 

I have seen e-collars mis-used as well. 

Any tool can be mis-used. I feel like the head halter is one that is intrinsically uncomfortable for the dog, while a prong or e-collar isn't a problem for the dog- unless they are used incorrectly. Put a head halter on the dog, and my feeling is you are starting out very wrong, putting the dog in a bad head space to start training. 

I won't use one, but I understand why people do.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wolfhund said:


> I would be interested in viewing a video of Zak George being taken down by a Rottweiler after forcing treats and hugs down its throat.


I am not familiar with Zak, but my vote would be for that to happen to Kikopup. She thinks your dog will be permanently traumatized if you even raise your voice to it... :rolleyes2:
Can't begin to describe how annoying I find the woman!

Part of my dislike stems from knowing someone who subscribed to her training methods, and her dogs were so out of control, they were dangerous. One of them killed 2 small dogs, and when I tried to block one of her males from constantly drooling on my pants, he decided to use my forearm as a chew toy! I didn't even push him away, just put my arm up to block his head!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

KaiserAus said:


> Ah ok. But can't they be used to manage the situation whilst teaching the required action?


Technically, yes, but you can achieve the same with a flat or martingale collar (for teaching purposes when they are little). I tried it yearsago with WD but is was useless. A neighbor dog, Belgian Shepherd, has been pulling on a front clip harness fro about three years now. He leans sideways in the harness and it is as if his front legs are squeezed together. It looks very unhealthy. I offered her free help and told her to try a prong but she didn't need help, so she said.
To start puppies, I prefer no leash at all and clicker for walking with me. Once they get that concept, leash training is a breeze. Until they throw in the towel at adolescence but then I have the prong in my pocket!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There's a really nice training facility near here, where I'm considering taking one of my dogs for swim sessions later this year for winter exercise. Gorgeous facility.

They require that you use one of these name-brand devices for several classes.... I quote:



> Equipment Required For This Class:
> Gentle Leader® Head Collar OR a SENSE-ation® Softouch™ Harness
> 
> No other brands are adequate or acceptable for the results you’ll want to achieve.


Banning prong collars and e-collars is one choice, but this takes it to another level entirely.... it's really a turn-off for me, I've always done puppy foundation things with a flat collar.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wolfhund said:


> And they also cause gait abnormalities, especially the front clipping harnesses.


I'd luv to see one of those front clip thingies ... used on a dog with up leash, redirect "potential" ... that would be interesting. :surprise:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have used a head halter a few times when Max was a pup it worked for us. I see so many pups trained with them in the guide dog foundation programs. My dad uses a no pull halter it works for him I would not want him to use anything else if it works. I worry about him a lot less. I could care less what anyone uses as long they use it correctly and there dog and owner safe happy and don't have to seclude their dog to their yard because they don't want to have a miserable walk. I see a lot of people who have dogs around here I do rarely ever see them being walked at all.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> I have used a head halter a few times when Max was a pup it worked for us. I see so many pups trained with them in the guide dog foundation programs. My dad uses a no pull halter it works for him I would not want him to use anything else if it works. I worry about him a lot less. I could care less what anyone uses as long they use it correctly and there dog and owner safe happy and don't have to seclude their dog to their yard because they don't want to have a miserable walk. I see a lot of people who have dogs around here I do rarely ever see them being walked at all.


it works amazing for my cattle dog but does not work what so ever for my gsd


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Kons gsd-I have not used on max when was he full grown. I used it when he was a young pup a few times is all I needed. Max was always pretty good walking on a leash- the only exception was he was Teenager when family members walked way ahead that was challenging and patience was the only thing that can be used but seemed to have disappear with maturity. He is still is very watchful who ever wanders from the group. Now all I have to say is -no pulling - with a flat collar on and off leash no collar on and mush he knows to pull when his sledding harness is on. he is a dog that needs intermittent training off leash kept up.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> Banning prong collars and e-collars is one choice, but this takes it to another level entirely.... it's really a turn-off for me, I've always done puppy foundation things with a flat collar.


Me, too, Backpacker!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> When I've asked people, it's mostly just the look of the prong that turns them off. It does look horrible, I'll admit that. The harnesses and halters look better to pet people, so they get used. They aren't really thinking a whole lot about whether the dog likes it or not. Aesthetics.
> 
> I see so many dogs in harnesses now, I think it is the new trend. I don't really care as long as the dog isn't out of control.
> 
> ...


Zoeys reaction to the head halter was violent and difficult to watch, it was bad enough our neighbors took notice. Even in a brief moment of inaction she looked defeated. Her introduction to an ecollar went without an issue, she was perfectly fine with it. I think she takes "exception" to anything placed over her muzzle.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> When I've asked people, it's mostly just the look of the prong that turns them off. It does look horrible, I'll admit that. The harnesses and halters look better to pet people, so they get used. They aren't really thinking a whole lot about whether the dog likes it or not. Aesthetics.


I think the reason why people may have such reactions to prong collars are due to all the misinformation being propagated by force free trainers. They did a great job of branding the prong collar as not just looking like a torture device, but actually having people believe it is a torture device when maybe 20 years people would have a neutral reaction and see it as another tool. 

What looks like more like a torture device is a head halter. Those things remind of Hannibal from Silence of the Lambs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

hmm well ...I will throw my "X Factor Observation of a" head halter "GSD" one day on a Walk.: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8181634-post23.html

Now after seeing that dogs demeanor, ... I observe (from a distance if my dogs are not with me) the demeanor of other "head halter dogs??" And thus far the only "beat down, I'm embarrassed to be seen with this crap on my face, dog I have seen was that GSD??? 

I've seen Goldens, Labs and (Breeds that shall be mentioned) in those things ... and they don't seem to care??? But that GSD ... he did not seem to be as pleased as was his owner ... I found it kinda sad to see.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Zoeys reaction to the head halter was violent and difficult to watch, it was bad enough our neighbors took notice. Even in a brief moment of inaction she looked defeated. Her introduction to an ecollar went without an issue, she was perfectly fine with it. I think she takes "exception" to anything placed over her muzzle.


Hmm ... looks defeated ...yep I've seen it.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Back pulling harness is fine for a young pup. Then when they are mature enough, approximately around six months, then using leash pressure with an active collar to break the opposition reflex. I learned this from ME. 

So ultimately the dog learns to pull on a harness (which is good for motivational work or bite work or pulling you on rollerblades) and don't pull on a collar.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> I am not familiar with Zak, but my vote would be for that to happen to Kikopup. She thinks your dog will be permanently traumatized if you even raise your voice to it... :rolleyes2:
> Can't begin to describe how annoying I find the woman!
> 
> Part of my dislike stems from knowing someone who subscribed to her training methods, and her dogs were so out of control, they were dangerous. One of them killed 2 small dogs, and when I tried to block one of her males from constantly drooling on my pants, he decided to use my forearm as a chew toy! I didn't even push him away, just put my arm up to block his head!


Here is what Zak George posted on his Facebook page about Leerburg several years ago:

I’ve just seen a video from Leerburg Video & Kennel claiming to promote a better relationship with your dog. For those that don’t know, Leerburg is a business focused on selling dog training products. They describe themselves as “balanced” which, in this case, means they pay lip service to positive reinforcement and in the same breath encourage you to buy a shock collar for your dog. Besides the obvious trouble with this hypocrisy, businesses like this who try to capitalize on the unsuspecting public are trying to be all things to all people. They have no guiding light or principles. Their primary goal is making sales. Please make sure to do your research before taking training advice and stay away from anyone who promotes unethical tools like remote shock collars. Do not support them. Do not give them your money and tell your friends, clients and colleagues to steer clear of businesses like Leerburg.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd never trust a trainer who won't put their OB training on the line in trials against other trainers. People like that will never put up or shut up. At least Posidog Chad goes out there and does it. I don't see eye to eye with him on methodology, but he will put himself out there.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I use to see a woman walking her husky with a front clip no pull harness while strolling her baby in a carriage. That dog continually did the crab side step pull. I stayed clear of that.

Funniest thing I ever saw was a friendly lab being walked in a front clip no pull harness. He wanted to meet a little yorkie but the labs owner didn't want him to. So the lab plopped himself in a down and with just using his back legs propelled himself forward, rendering that harness useless. The meet and greet happened, the adults laughed. Lol.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> There's a really nice training facility near here, where I'm considering taking one of my dogs for swim sessions later this year for winter exercise. Gorgeous facility.
> 
> They require that you use one of these name-brand devices for several classes.... I quote:
> 
> ...


I wonder if the facility has a store and the promotion is part of a business deal between the facility and the companies that make those. Just saying, but if I really liked a facility and saw that, I would call just to find out if flat collar is acceptable explaining that a restrictive training collar has never been needed due to good temperament and all the training that has been done. I actually did this with the facility we went to for intro to agilities. The rules were no prong. I called the instructor and had a really nice conversation. I was allowed to bring him in on the prong but took it off during training. It was private class with no other dogs so it worked out.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just talked to my vet about gentle leaders and front clip harnesses. She is seeing a lot of neck and orthopedic issues due to these "tools" and advices prongs over these and also over chokers.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Interesting, Wolfy--- do you know if there are any studies on this problem? I can definitely see how they could cause structural and neck issues. I saw a newfie in a gentle leader bucking like a horse, the leverage you can get on the collar could certainly strain the neck. Dogs are not built like horses, and horses are usually trained to lead (I believe- I don't know much about horses, honestly).


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Interesting, Wolfy--- do you know if there are any studies on this problem? I can definitely see how they could cause structural and neck issues. I saw a newfie in a gentle leader bucking like a horse, the leverage you can get on the collar could certainly strain the neck. Dogs are not built like horses, and horses are usually trained to lead (I believe- I don't know much about horses, honestly).


Haha, well they may be built differently and many are trained to lead but not all of them take to it easy, or they get spooked, or they're just jerks. It's not really a simple you put the halter on and they walk nice lol. Depends on the horse and just so many other things. Some get started when they're young done don't.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> I wonder if the facility has a store and the promotion is part of a business deal between the facility and the companies that make those. Just saying, but if I really liked a facility and saw that, I would call just to find out if flat collar is acceptable explaining that a restrictive training collar has never been needed due to good temperament and all the training that has been done. I actually did this with the facility we went to for intro to agilities. The rules were no prong. I called the instructor and had a really nice conversation. I was allowed to bring him in on the prong but took it off during training. It was private class with no other dogs so it worked out.


Perhaps! This particular facility is black and white with their policies. 

I wanted to enter agility there with my younger dog, but the prerequisite class requires a head halter or front clip harness I mentioned in my previous post. Flat collars are not allowed. It didn't matter that she'd already trained at two separate agility facilities in the area, passed the classes with flying colors, was already trialing (and titling) in herding which is exclusively off leash, and I had video to prove my claims. Nope. 

My personal goal is always to have my own dogs doing whatever the task is, off leash, as soon as possible. That's what I train for. So I get very irritated at leash/harness/halter restrictions.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

WIBackpacker, that is just crazy and doesn't make good business sense. Who in their right mind would put a restrictive/training halter,harness,collar on their dog if the dog does not need one? Just a rhetorical question as I'm shaking my head.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Heartandsoul said:


> WIBackpacker, that is just crazy and doesn't make good business sense. Who in their right mind would put a restrictive/training halter,harness,collar on their dog if the dog does not need one? Just a rhetorical question as I'm shaking my head.


Agree. I had more or less written off the head halter / front harness crowd as brand name gearhead enthusiasts until I ran into this facility and its rules. To each their own, I suppose... but not for me!


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

I would say head halters and prongs are similarly to the dog, but humans think prongs are more cruel because of their looks + examples of people abusing prongs.


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