# WHEN IT'S SAFE TO SWITCH TO GRAIN FREE?



## frenchie27 (Jan 12, 2008)

Okay, I know that most of your are pro raw feed, and that's fine. However, I am more into dry kibble. I feed him Canidae ALS right now and he's doing great. I add salmon or cottage cheese to it to make it more interesting....But, I have an Orijen bag sitting there which I want to incorporate to his diet, not to substitute Canidae but to incorporate 1/2 and 1/2. I tried it one day and he went nuts...LOVED Orijen....I am just concerned that at 8 months it is just too much protein. What's your take as to this? Would it be ok to incorporate already? Please advice....


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2008)

I would wait until your dog is at least 1 year old. 1.5 would be better.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i don't think that there is any reason why puppies can't eat grain-free. lots of people raise their pups on raw right from being weaned (i know you don't want to feed raw; i'm just noting from a grain-free/higher protein perspective)

neb has been on a mix of orijen and raw (THK and homemade) since i brought him home a few weeks ago.


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## pianotuner (Jun 17, 2008)

Hello from MASS., glad i found this site. I have two GSD a male who is 9yrs old and a female who is 6 yrs old.
She has always had a sensitive stomach and i have fed her Wellness Simple Duck and rice for about 3 yrs. No more stomach growling but a LARGE amount of stool and frequent. I am this week slowly switching her to BG salmon, she loves it. I am concerned about the 32% protein level. I work at a petshop supplier part time and we sell raw and other foods. I am still leary of raw, perhaps because i go to a traditional vet. I have heard pros and cons of raw and am finding it so hard to find the right food.
My male is on Science Diet ZD, i can hear the sighs but it has been the only food that has stopped the sores he would get all over his body. Tests show he has many allergies, including protein. He also has occasional seizures, poor baby but not frequent since on phenobarbitol. I had tried switching home to another food than SD and thats when the seizures started so im back to it. Could have been a coincidence but im afraid to try new foods on him.
I will let you know how the f does on BG but am hearing her stomach gurgle as i type. UGH I am introducing it slowly but this is so frustrating to find the right food. Every dog is different and I have worked at this shop long enough to see raw is good for some but not all and same with all the other foods it seems.
If anyone has had similiar situations and success with something please let me know. Hope this isnt too long for you that you lose interest in reading it.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: jarni don't think that there is any reason why puppies can't eat grain-free. lots of people raise their pups on raw right from being weaned (i know you don't want to feed raw; i'm just noting from a grain-free/higher protein perspective)
> 
> neb has been on a mix of orijen and raw (THK and homemade) since i brought him home a few weeks ago.


It isn't the protien in the grain free kibble that is the issue for puppies, it is the fact that the calcuim and phorphorus (sp) are too high. The only grain free I have seen with cal/phos within the recommended levels for puppies is the Orijen Large Breed puppy.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

the regular orijen puppy also falls within the guidelines re: calcium and phosphorus that i've seen, as does THK embark (what i use) though i've yet to see guidelines that the protein from orijen, or THK would meet.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: jarnthe regular orijen puppy also falls within the guidelines re: calcium and phosphorus that i've seen, as does THK embark (what i use) though i've yet to see guidelines that the protein from orijen, or THK would meet.


The regular Orijen puppy and Embark are higher than what I have read is the "ideal" calcuim %. Keep in mind, I am talking about a "large breed" puppy. What I have seen is that it is best if the calciim is less than 1.5%. Granted, neither of those products is much higher than that (both have 1/8% max.). 

The Orijen LB puppy also has less fat than the "regular" puppy.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

i agree with BlackGsd. if i was determined to feed a grain free to a gsd puppy, orijen large breed puppy would be the only one i would feel comfortable with in regards to the levels of calcium and phosphorous. 

ive seen no up to date research that indicates high protein levels would be detrimental for a large breed puppy. 

my girl is 13 months old now, and im still more comfortable just leaving her on the canidae for a few more months.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

what are you both relying on to determine appropriate calcium and phosphorus levels? i've looked at the AAFCO standards, and both the regular orijen and THK embark are within their guidelines. 

if there's another standard out there i'd be interested to see it - as i'm sure AAFCO is fairly industry-oriented, but i'm just not clear where you are drawing your information from.


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## frenchie27 (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes, I would like to get the correct info as well. What tables are they going by? Please elaborate.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i got the AAFCO standards here: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1651&articleid=703

the standard has minimum amounts for puppies and dogs, as well as maximums.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

alot of the research that can be found on this revolves around giant breeds like great danes. it all depends on whether one is comfortable with the AAFCO guidelines. i feel AAFCO guidelines are awfully broad. most of the grocery store brands fall within AAFCO guidelines, but im sure most of us dont shop there for our pet food. 

most of the "premium" quality kibbles (yeah, i know its subjective as to what is premium) have formulated large breed puppy foods specifically to keep the mineral levels such as calcium at the lower end of the AAFCO guidelines. i think some of us are much more comfortable keeping these levels in the lower range while our gsd's are growing.

here is an excerpt from an Ohio State University Studyby the way, GO BLUE!!)

_Nutritional Issues and Answers

Sarah K. Abood, DVM, PhD

The field of nutrition is filled with myth-information that often persists despite few if any scientific facts to support a given myth (even in the face of data that clearly disputes a myth). Nutrition myths are interesting to consider from two aspects. First, they are often centered on some small bit of truth. Over the years of translation and retelling, however, the truth begins to take on characteristics of myth and any truth is distorted and replaced by misinformation. Second, many nutrition myths focus on the erroneous belief that pets have a physiologic need for certain ingredients in their diets. In fact, dogs have requirements for nutrients, not individual ingredients. The important factor in the nutritional well being of a pet is whether the diet contains the correct nutrients in the right amounts in a form the dog can digest and utilize. It is not dependent on which exact ingredients are used to supply those nutrients. This presentation will briefly review the validity of some common nutrition myths, as well as address the people, dietary and animal factors involved when advising new owners on what and how to feed their dog.

*Myth #1: Excessive protein causes over-development of puppies*

Known Facts: Dr. Hazewinkle (Utrecht University, The Netherlands) has shown that high protein intakes in growing Great Dane pups does not cause disturbances in bone development. Low protein diets, however, were of concern in that they did not support adequate growth as evidenced by low serum albumin levels and low body weight. Scientific work conducted at the Purina Pet Care Center has shown that excessive calories may cause obesity and increase the risk of orthopedic problems in Labrador Retriever dogs.

Best Nutritional Advice: Feed a well-balanced product in amounts to support proper growth but to avoid obesity. Maintain a good body condition (feed the animal and not the food bowl!).

*Myth #2: Puppies (and lactating bitches) need calcium supplements*

Known Facts: Adding extra nutrients does not automatically assure a healthier bitch and litter, nor does it improve the growth of puppies, and may in fact result in problems. <u>Dr. Hazewinkle found that 1.1 percent calcium (dry matter basis) was adequate for fast growing Great Dane pups and that 3.3 percent calcium was excessive and resulted in severe skeletal abnormalities.</u> The AAFCO nutrient minimum for reproduction and growth is 1.0 percent calcium and the maximum is 2.5 percent calcium. Still unknown is the precise upper level of calcium at which significant problems in skeletal development may occur._

here is a passage form more research:

_Large Breed Puppies:...What is an appropriate Diet?.
"Included in the list of medical problems that are believed, in part, attributable to over supplementation are: Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy, Osteochondrosis, Hip Dysplasia2."
" Calcium: The ideal calcium content, on a dry weight basis is 1%-2%-.<u>* AAFCO recommendation is 1%-2.5% which is generally acceptable; however, for giant breeds, such as the Great Dane, the lower end of this range is especially recommended.*</u> It is believed that calcium in excess of 3% on a dry weight basis can predispose to significant skeletal abnormalities, such as those mentioned above. Keep in mind, also, that adding of vitamins, particularly Vitamin D, will also increase absorption of dietary calcium (to possibly excessive levels)."
" Energy: If too many calories are supplied and consumed on a daily basis, too rapid growth results and the excess mass that must be supported on an immature skeleton can result in microscopic damage to skeletal tissue, with subsequent malformation and/or malarticulation of joints, degenerative changes and potentially chronic pain. For most practical purposes, energy levels in food can be extrapolated principally from dietary fat, which should be no less than 8% (AAFCO recommendation) to maximum of 12% on a dry weight basis. "
"Protein: As a percent of diet on a dry weight basis should range between 15%-25% (AAFCO recommends minumum of 22%). The ideal protein concentration is difficult to specify, since it is, in part dependent upon biological value of the protein source; (i.e. if of high biological value, then less is needed {more is assimilated} and the lower end of the range is desired). Protein markedly above the upper limit described here will be converted to energy, rather then incorporated into protein tissue. This will, therefore, add to the energy burden, and potentiate the problems associated with excess energy consumption, as described above" 
: J Nutr 2002 Nov;132(11):3363-8 : Intestinal calcium absorption in growing dogs is influenced by calcium intake and age but not by growth rate.
Tryfonidou MA, van den Broek J, van den Brom WE, Hazewinkel HA.
Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, 3584 CM Utrecht, The Netherlands. 
[email protected]_


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks - i can definitely see that AAFCO is industry oriented, and that could affect their research. theirs was the only guidelines i found though.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

You may want to read some of Linda Arndt's articles as she has tons of info on bone issues and nutrition.

http://www.greatdanelady.com

Cherri


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## frenchie27 (Jan 12, 2008)

Well, if I understand the table correctly, then it should be okay to feed my 8 month old Orijen because it falls within the guidelines? It is still under 2%....or am I NOT reading correctly?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I feed Natural Balance Duck and Potato to all of mine. The pup had been on it since he was 6 months old. It is grain free.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

<u>NB P & D </u>(Just noticed it's not Duck and Potato it's Potato and Duck)
Crude Protein 21.0% minimum 
Crude Fat 10.0% minimum 
Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum 
Moisture 10.0% maximum 
Calcium 1.0% minimum 
Phosphorus 0.9% minimum 
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.5% minimum 
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 0.01% minimum 
Omega-6 Fatty Acids 3.0% minimum 

<u>Canidae ALS</u>
Crude Protein (min.) 24.00% 
Crude Fat (min.) 14.50% 
Crude Fiber (max.) 4.00% 
Moisture (min.) 10.00% 
Lenoleic Acid (Omega 6) (min.) 3.70% 
Vitamin E (min.) 200.00 IU/kg 
Calcium (min.) 1.20% 
Phosphorus (min.) .90% 
Alpha Linolenic Acid (Omega 3) (min.) .60% 
Ascorbic Acid (min.) 50.00 mg/kg 
Cellulase (a) (min.) 100 CMCU/kg 
Magnesium (min.) 0.14% 
pH 6.0 

<u>Orijen Adult</u>
Protein 42.0% 
Fat 16.0% 
Carbohydrate 18.0% 
Moisture 10.0% 
Fiber 3.0% 
Calcium (min.) 1.6% 
Calcium (max.) 1.8% 
Phosphorus (min.) 1.2% 
Phosphorus (max.) 1.4% 
Omega-6 2.0% 
Omega-3 0.7% 
Glucosamine 500 mg/kg 
Chondroitin 150 mg/kg 
Microorganisms 80M cfu/kg 
pH 5.0 
Ash (min.) 7.0% 

<u>Wellness Core</u>
Crude Protein min. 34% 
Crude Fat min. 14% 
Crude Fiber max. 4% 
Moisture max. 10% 
Calcium max. 2% 
Phosphorus max. 1.4% 
Vitamin E min. 150 IU/kg 
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* min. 3.25% 
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* min. 0.70% 
Glucosamin Hydrochloride* min. 250 mg/kg 
Chondroitin Sulfate min. 200 mg/kg 
Total Micro-organisms* min. 80,000,000 CFU/lb 
Crude Protein min. 5 mg/kg 


So







if you got this far you'll see there is difference in the calcium/Phosphorus in the Natural Balnce which is more in line with Canidae than what's in the Orijen and Core (Just picked Orijen 'cause OP mentioned it and Core 'cause I had it bookmarked)


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.<u>NB P & D </u>(Just noticed it's not Duck and Potato it's Potato and Duck)



Waaaah!!!!!
















Spoil sport!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Kathy - I was going crazy trying to figure out how the NB could be fed to a pup without it being out of the calcium/phos/etc ranges. 
Now at least I know I'm not crazy....well maybe I am but at least that part of my logic brain was working right!!!


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## frenchie27 (Jan 12, 2008)

A vet recently told me that calcium is okay as long as phosphorus is given simoultaneously. I don't think that there will be a problem then. Charlie seems to LOVE Orijen, even more than Canidae. He wants to literally eat the plate when I put a little Orijen in there.

I don't know, it's all so confusing. I wish there was a manual with the precise correct info out there for all of us. Without any conflict of interests or commission issues...just the plain truth!!!


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## balakai (Feb 9, 2005)

How about Blue Buffalo's grain-free, Wilderness? It's got 1.0% calcium and .9% phosphorus.

I was feeding Canidae ALS to my GSD puppy and her coat was icky, lots of poo. My other 3 dogs are eating a combination of raw and grain-free kibble, so I'd really prefer a grain-free for India as well. She's been eating BB for ~5 weeks and her coat is sooooo much better. Still a air amount of poo, but she is a big dog!







Plus I think I might be feeding a tad too much.

~Kristin


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