# White Swiss Shepherd Questions



## futureluna

Hey all,

Im a highschool student, but am already planning for my future lil pup when im in university. I have done a whole bunch of research on the breeds I'm interested in trying to find the right one, starting at german shepherds (decided they might be a bit too full on for a uni student, although I do love them), through to golden retrievers (who dont quite have the one-person loyalty I love) until my recent discovery of the White Swiss Shepherd. 

I have searched endlessly online but have only found very limited info on Swiss Shepherds, and was wondering if anyone on the forum could give me an overview of their needs, personality, etc as I hear they are very similar to GSDs but often less neurotic, mellower and are not as predisposed to be a working dog (slightly less exercise?). 

If anyone could give me a run down on what the breed is like, how loyal they are, defensive, potential aggression, energetic etc that would be greatly appreciated, and if anyone could compare them to regular GSDs or even goldens that would be great. 

Info on me: I will most likely be in university when i adopt the dog, but living at home for a while (high chance of having a big yard), I have experience owning and training dogs (nothing competition level), and am happy to exercise & groom a fair amount a day. I know uni life is busy, and I will most likely have part time work as well, but I do intend to spend the time around those things with the dog - but this means they will definitely need to have an off switch. 

Thanks :smile2::grin2:


----------



## Mary Beth

White Swiss Shepherds are also known as White Shepherds and White German Shepherds as explained here:

White Shepherds of Atlin Mountain Blizzards

I suggest you also search under those names and you'll be able to find more information.

This is the website for the White German Shepherd Club of America:

White Shepherds of Atlin Mountain Blizzards


----------



## selzer

The Swiss Shepherd is a White German Shepherd Dog. 

History: White dogs were behind the original sheepherding dogs that were refined into the breed we all love. And so, white dogs would appear in litters. There are a number of reasons the founder did not want the white dogs, though I do not know if they were outright disqualified until the 1930s. Here are a couple: 

1. The white dogs are not actually white genetically, or rather, they have for their color genes Black and Tan or sable or black, etc, but they have a white masking gene. It was felt that the white would affect the strong fibrant pigment that was desired. 

2. The white gene in other breeds, I think maybe dalmations, maybe boxers, were associated with deafness, so the white was considered a weakness and possibly an indicator of other problems. 

3. As a sheep-herding breed, a white dog may not be as distinguishable among the sheep, and therefore less desirable.

4. When the founder realized his dog had no chance of a future as a sheep-herding dog only, he began to train and introduce them as Military Working Dogs and Police Dogs. White makes for a better target. Who would want to spend months training a dog only to get it shot because of its coat color?

Once the color was banned in Germany white pups were often culled, and certainly not allowed to reproduce. In the US the color has quite a following, though show breeders would also kill white ones. I am sure not all breeders, but some did not want anyone to think they were producing off-colors in their lines and would cull the white pups, blue and liver pups. 

The AKC has it written, no dog with a nose not pre-dominantly black, which knock out blue (grey nose), liver (brown nose) and albinos (pink nose and usually black parts). But they also disqualify white dogs. This disqualification only prevents them from being show in conformation. They can still breed and produce registered puppies which is not the case in Germany. 

The UKC does allow the white color to be shown. UKC is not the FCI Kennel Club for the US. So fanciers went forward with creating their own standard and breed, which may be FCI recognized, but is not AKC recognized. And the AKC will no longer separate dogs by color alone. So, like you have Black cocker spaniels and ASCOB -- Any Solid Color Other than Black and Party -- more than one color, they won't do that anymore. So the AKC will not allow white ones to compete in conformation, and they will not allow the Swiss Shepherd because it is just a white GSD. 

Temperament wise, they are GSDs. I saw a great white dog doing utility at a show. But mostly they can have issues. Not so much their color, but because the breeders of the dogs are generally breeding for a section of the population that wants white dogs. So they are often breeding soley for color and ignoring other aspects of the breed. Since it is impossible to show (AKC), there is no reason to try to meet the standard in other ways. And a lot of people breeding just for color are also breeding for whatever sells. And this can tend toward temperament issues. It used to be that white dogs were generally more high strung and nervous, though that was back in the 80s, 90s, and they may have improved since then. I wouldn't know. 

The thing is, by separating them into Swiss Shepherds, now you have all the problems, and you are closing off the gene pool. 

If you like the color and choose to get a Swiss Shepherd (registered as such by some kennel club other than AKC), make sure it is a reputable (FCI) kennel club. Or just look for GSD breeders who produce white dogs. Color should be the last thing we are concerned with, as it is totally aesthetic. But there are enough GSDs out there that you can shop for a color you like. Just remember that the breed is plagued with health problems and temperament problems and your breeder ought to be breeding with these in mind first. So ask what they are doing to prove health and temperament of breeding stock. And it is not a bad idea to familiarize yourself with pedigrees and ask for the names of the sire and dam and go back and look at a 5-6 generation pedigree and see how many and how close dogs are repeated.


----------



## futureluna

Thank you for all the info! To clarify, the look is definitely not why I was interested in the breed. I never even thought of getting into white dogs, and I love tans and sables just as much. The reason I looked into it is because many sources said that the white lines were calmer, which would be better for me. I am in love with the temperament of the GSDs, but worry that I cannot handle the drive/craziness of owning one. This is why a calmer version appealed to me when i discovered the BBS, but I suppose they are just the exact same GSDs only white.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I have a white German Shepherd...registered as such with the AKC. I don't think the Swiss shepherd and some white GSDs are exactly the same thing anymore. For instance, my dog has a perfect GSD silhouette, and some Swiss shepherds I have seen don't have that same GSD silhouette anymore. I would guess temperament wise they probably aren't quite the same either.

My white dog is really very much what I wanted when I set out, I have a senior working line and I did want a slightly mellower dog. He is more laid back, softer temperament. But he also trains and competes and does well in tracking, dock diving and rally obedience. He is easy to live with, easy to train.

You do need to look hard at your breeder although there ARE reputable breeders of white dogs. Make sure they are doing necessary health screenings, make sure they are titling their dogs at something. Make sure the dogs are out there doing stuff and proving that they can. I know things about my dog from traveling to trials that I would never know at home on our country road. Breeders need to know these things about their dogs, need to show the dogs can get out aND do their thing in a trial atmosphere.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

https://goo.gl/images/TXgTZD

I don't know if that link will work but that's an example of a dog that doesn't really look like a GSD to me? Some is the hair but this dog looks more square, higher rear end, less length of body?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I don't have any pics of my dog standing in a stack... but to me he basically looks like a gsd, just white, and without any of the major extremes that the two show lines produce


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

One more


----------



## futureluna

Wow your dog is a beauty! I believe the same, Swiss Shepherds look quite different in my opinion, more wolf/fox-like than GSDs who look very 'doggish'. Ah your dog is just gorgeous!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Selzer said: "As a sheep-herding breed, a white dog may not be as distinguishable among the sheep, and therefore less desirable.

4. When the founder realized his dog had no chance of a future as a sheep-herding dog only, he began to train and introduce them as Military Working Dogs and Police Dogs. White makes for a better target. Who would want to spend months training a dog only to get it shot because of its coat color?"

Not sure this is totally accurate.

"Many of the early herdsmen preferred the white coat, as it was easier to distinguish the dogs from darker European wolves. "

WGSDCIIâ„¢ - History of the White German Shepherd Dog

"The Nazis, including Hitler, saw the white coat as an undesirable trait, and further assumed that the white coated dogs’ genes paled the darker coated dogs’ colors. With little knowledge of science, they blamed the whites for many diseases as well. Germany soon barred white German Shepherds from the conformation ring and the breeding pool. " 

Today, science and breeding history has proven that the white recessive gene masks the actual color of the dog, making them appear white, and brings along no health problems: in other words, the gene which causes white does not itself cause any other defect. They are otherwise genetically identical to colored German Shepherds.

WGSD History | White German Shepherd Dog Club of America

This page also brings up some points that i have often thought about, specifically announcing before releasing the police dog:

Some present breeders of the dark German shepherds claim that the white coat is too visible for police work, too light for sheep herding, and undesirable for a family home. Ellen Mattingly stated in an article, written in 1972, “A German Shepherd dog herding stock in a snow-covered field or herding white sheep in any weather would be somewhat less than optimally visible if he were also white.” If you will notice, sheep are not the stunning white color of the WGSD; rather, they are a dun color. But letï¿½s counter this theory. What about black sheep? Would this mean that a black or dark GSD could not herd black sheep, especially at night? Or what about the sables who may blend into the yellow/tan landscape? Mattingly additionally remarks, “The German Shepherd Dog is used extensively for guard and sentry duty, much of which seems to be done at night, and, in this case, the white color makes for maximum visibility which would certainly be a disadvantage.” Studies in the police force have shown that the majority of K9ï¿½s injured of killed are shot in crossfire, or by their own officers due to poor visibility! And in this day and age the officers are required to announce that they have released the dog, thus eliminating the theory that the dog must sneak up in darkness! One incredible notion passed down against the whites referred to the blind who would have white dog hair on their clothes and couldnï¿½t see to remove it. Anyone who knows GSDï¿½s knows that they shed their undercoat, MOST OF WHICH IS CREAM OR WHITE HAIR! So this is a ridiculous argument! Also stated on this line was that the blind wanted no attention brought to themselves in public and a white coated GSD would draw extreme attention. As if the walking stick and having any colored dog in harness is invisible to the public?"



I believe that the whites have been bred only to each other for long enough now that they are different than the other "lines" of GSDs...I just think it's a mistake. I think at the very least white breeders should be incorporating "color" shepherds to widen the gene pool, if not the other way around


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer said: "As a sheep-herding breed, a white dog may not be as distinguishable among the sheep, and therefore less desirable.
> 
> 4. When the founder realized his dog had no chance of a future as a sheep-herding dog only, he began to train and introduce them as Military Working Dogs and Police Dogs. White makes for a better target. Who would want to spend months training a dog only to get it shot because of its coat color?"
> 
> Not sure this is totally accurate.
> 
> "Many of the early herdsmen preferred the white coat, as it was easier to distinguish the dogs from darker European wolves. "
> 
> WGSDCIIâ„¢ - History of the White German Shepherd Dog
> 
> "The Nazis, including Hitler, saw the white coat as an undesirable trait, and further assumed that the white coated dogs’ genes paled the darker coated dogs’ colors. With little knowledge of science, they blamed the whites for many diseases as well. Germany soon barred white German Shepherds from the conformation ring and the breeding pool. "
> 
> Today, science and breeding history has proven that the white recessive gene masks the actual color of the dog, making them appear white, and brings along no health problems: in other words, the gene which causes white does not itself cause any other defect. They are otherwise genetically identical to colored German Shepherds.
> 
> WGSD History | White German Shepherd Dog Club of America
> 
> This page also brings up some points that i have often thought about, specifically announcing before releasing the police dog:
> 
> Some present breeders of the dark German shepherds claim that the white coat is too visible for police work, too light for sheep herding, and undesirable for a family home. Ellen Mattingly stated in an article, written in 1972, “A German Shepherd dog herding stock in a snow-covered field or herding white sheep in any weather would be somewhat less than optimally visible if he were also white.” If you will notice, sheep are not the stunning white color of the WGSD; rather, they are a dun color. But letï¿½s counter this theory. What about black sheep? Would this mean that a black or dark GSD could not herd black sheep, especially at night? Or what about the sables who may blend into the yellow/tan landscape? Mattingly additionally remarks, “The German Shepherd Dog is used extensively for guard and sentry duty, much of which seems to be done at night, and, in this case, the white color makes for maximum visibility which would certainly be a disadvantage.” Studies in the police force have shown that the majority of K9ï¿½s injured of killed are shot in crossfire, or by their own officers due to poor visibility! And in this day and age the officers are required to announce that they have released the dog, thus eliminating the theory that the dog must sneak up in darkness! One incredible notion passed down against the whites referred to the blind who would have white dog hair on their clothes and couldnï¿½t see to remove it. Anyone who knows GSDï¿½s knows that they shed their undercoat, MOST OF WHICH IS CREAM OR WHITE HAIR! So this is a ridiculous argument! Also stated on this line was that the blind wanted no attention brought to themselves in public and a white coated GSD would draw extreme attention. As if the walking stick and having any colored dog in harness is invisible to the public?"
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the whites have been bred only to each other for long enough now that they are different than the other "lines" of GSDs...I just think it's a mistake. I think at the very least white breeders should be incorporating "color" shepherds to widen the gene pool, if not the other way around


Yep those were some of the reasons I have heard. I was not saying they were correct or not. The paling or washing out of the colors was definitely something the founder was concerned with. I think the white dogs were undesirable prior to the nazis taking it over. But they actually had the final word on that in Germany.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Stephanitz himself said "No good dog can be a bad color". I think that about sums it up for me


----------



## sebrench

Hi, I have a white shepherd, not a white Swiss shepherd. I also have a west German showline GSD (WGSL). I agree with the things Cowboysgirl said. 

Levi is a great family dog, loves our kids. He is a one-family dog, very affectionate (almost too affectionate, hah) with us but reserved around strangers. He is active and loves to run. All the shepherds I've owned have been active regardless of the line. Having a fenced yard is helpful. I personally wouldn't want to own a young GSD in an apartment or a house w/o a yard. Lots of people do it, but it's not for me. Also, keep in mind that many shepherds don't do well in dog parks. 

I would say my white shepherd has less prey drive than my blk/red. He is much softer and more sensitive. His ears go back if I talk to him sternly. I think he would shut down if a trainer were too severe, whereas I need to be a little tougher with my WGSL and the working line I had in the past.

He is not as stoic, dutiful, and confident as my other GSDs. All of my shepherds have been velcro dogs, but Levi's a bit clingier. I would not expect him to excel in any kind of formal protection work, but he has a nice deep bark and is a good deterrent. He is super smart and easy to train, very food motivated, good in public around people and dogs (leashed dogs, I don't go to dog parks). If I didn't have two children under two, I would love to compete with him in rally or obedience, or tracking, as I think he would do well. 

I have noticed some small differences between my white GSD and my others. However, at the end of the day, he's still a shepherd, and he still needs all the structure, boundaries, and training that any other GSD needs. 

Regardless of the line, I like to keep my GSD puppies in group obedience classes for their first 1-2 years. It's a great place to socialize with other people and dogs in a controlled setting, and you can work on obedience with lots of distractions. I think training classes are helpful in raising a well rounded, stable dog, especially for new GSD owners.

Based on my experience with my one white shepherd, I would recommend them for people who want a slightly less intense GSD. However, make sure you go to a reputable breeder. I would look for a breeder who titles their dogs in show but also in some other venues if possible (like tracking or obedience). Also make sure that the appropriate health screenings have been done.

(Other white shepherds may be different, this is just what mine is like).


----------



## futureluna

sebrench said:


> Hi, I have a white shepherd, not a white Swiss shepherd. I also have a west German showline GSD (WGSL). I agree with the things Cowboysgirl said.
> 
> Levi is a great family dog, loves our kids. He is a one-family dog, very affectionate (almost too affectionate, hah) with us but reserved around strangers. He is active and loves to run. All the shepherds I've owned have been active regardless of the line. Having a fenced yard is helpful. I personally wouldn't want to own a young GSD in an apartment or a house w/o a yard. Lots of people do it, but it's not for me. Also, keep in mind that many shepherds don't do well in dog parks.
> 
> I would say my white shepherd has less prey drive than my blk/red. He is much softer and more sensitive. His ears go back if I talk to him sternly. I think he would shut down if a trainer were too severe, whereas I need to be a little tougher with my WGSL and the working line I had in the past.
> 
> He is not as stoic, dutiful, and confident as my other GSDs. All of my shepherds have been velcro dogs, but Levi's a bit clingier. I would not expect him to excel in any kind of formal protection work, but he has a nice deep bark and is a good deterrent. He is super smart and easy to train, very food motivated, good in public around people and dogs (leashed dogs, I don't go to dog parks). If I didn't have two children under two, I would love to compete with him in rally or obedience, or tracking, as I think he would do well.
> 
> I have noticed some small differences between my white GSD and my others. However, at the end of the day, he's still a shepherd, and he still needs all the structure, boundaries, and training that any other GSD needs.
> 
> Regardless of the line, I like to keep my GSD puppies in group obedience classes for their first 1-2 years. It's a great place to socialize with other people and dogs in a controlled setting, and you can work on obedience with lots of distractions. I think training classes are helpful in raising a well rounded, stable dog, especially for new GSD owners.
> 
> Based on my experience with my one white shepherd, I would recommend them for people who want a slightly less intense GSD. However, make sure you go to a reputable breeder. I would look for a breeder who titles their dogs in show but also in some other venues if possible (like tracking or obedience). Also make sure that the appropriate health screenings have been done.
> 
> (Other white shepherds may be different, this is just what mine is like).


They sound a lot better for me than GSDs, as I've never experienced being a stern leader and prefer more gentle approaches. Will still be doing more research to really decide, Thanks!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I think sebrench's description is almost perfectly right on for my dog....except mine is not very food motivated (but works hard for a ball), and I would not say mine is clingy, or clingier than any other dog I have had.

But basically, I think sebrench's take on his/her dogs is almost identical to my dogs


----------



## selzer

futureluna said:


> They sound a lot better for me than GSDs, as I've never experienced being a stern leader and prefer more gentle approaches. Will still be doing more research to really decide, Thanks!



Be careful. Usually, a soft dog lacks confidence. A biddable dog is one that wants to do your bidding. You can use gentle approaches and praise and the dog will stand on its head and spit nickels for you, if you show it how. A soft dog is one that generally lacks confidence. These can be very biddable, but only so far as they are not unsure of what you want and their ability to do it. You cannot correct a soft dog as you would one with strong character, because the dog will shut down and be afraid of you. 

The soft dog with a competent (experienced) handler can get on quite well. Probably because the experienced handler is walking out in confidence and the soft dog is attracted to that confidence and follows the leader. 

A soft dog with an owner who lacks confidence can be a ticking time bomb. EVERY DOG WILL BITE. A soft dog who is pressed into a lot of uncomfortable situations, is easily overwhelmed and if the handler lacks confidence, the pup knows there is no help to be had there, and the dog might use any number of coping mechanisms -- reactivity probably being the most common. Hair up, backing up or lunching forward, snarling, snapping, and if someone gets too close the dog will become a fear-biter. 

Dogs bite mostly out of fear. Usually dogs with weak nerves bite out of fear. Usually they are handled by novice owners often employing gentle training methods and an over-abundance of socialization. 

Socialization, too soon, too much, can be worse than none at all. 

When you get your puppy, use that first week or two to become its best buddy. Be firm and gentle -- NOT PERMISSIVE. You need to have confidence for your puppy. So even if you think you've made a mistake, maintain your confident air. Work it out later, and determine how to avoid the situation again, but the pup can handle a mistake by you much better than anxiety and indecision. 

If you can project confidence and are trustworthy -- consistent, praise when praise is due, good timing, stable (not yelling at your puppy or anyone else), etc., then you can raise a soft-biddible dog without ever raising your voice or using any type of correction collar. You will be able to let her know by the tone of your voice that she didn't do something right or did the bad thing. And yes, the ears will show you. They go back in respect, but they can also go back in worry or when they know you aren't happy. Make training 95+% happy, up-beat, praise-worthy. Always start with something fun that she will be successful at. Always end sessions with something fun, that she will be successful at. Keep sessions short. Don't train when you are in a bad mood or rushed. Do not be permissive, don't hack off your communication by not letting her know that she did not do it right. But set her up to succeed and praise her for doing it. 

With a soft dog, you need to build her confidence. And you need to be confident. You need to be very disciplined. If you let your frustration or anger out, it will be much more difficult than with a dog that is not soft. There is no hurry, and taking a day off or a week off in training/socialization will not hurt, where training the dog when you are likely to be short with the pup or unfair with it, can put you way back. They can remember a long time. So discipline (yourself) very important: Do not let your anger/frustration leak onto the puppy. Do not give commands she has little hope of obeying unless you are connected and can immediately follow through. For example, do not call your dog to come when she is playing with a bunch of puppies off lead. Teach commands on leash first, then add in distractions, then start to go off lead in a safe place. Because you don't want her to believe that commands are optional. Follow through every time. Praise whenever she comes to you. Never call her to rat her out about anything. Potty mistakes in the house are because you didn't get her out on time. Just clean it up, and take her out more frequently. 

I would not suggest a soft puppy for a HS kid. Sorry. I would suggest a middle of the road pup. Puppies' temperament is not exact, and not necessarily bad/wrong. Packs of dogs needed a spectrum of temperaments to function as a pack. But some dogs are more likely to forgive mistakes, to handle situations, to take correction, etc. Your soft-biddable-gentle dog has limits, and if we over-whelm this dog with normal situations, we can turn her into a fearful bundle of nerves that can become dangerous as well.

soft-shy-fearful
soft-biddable-gentle
biddable-gentle-less confident
biddable-confident 
hard-biddable-confident
hard-confident-independent. 

I am sure there are better descriptions of GSD temperaments. The soft-shy-fearful pup is certainly not what you want. While you may make a pet of one of them, you will always be making allowances for the dog and trying to stay within her bubble of what is comfortable. You may not be able to have friends over because you have a dog that can easily be terrified by normal situations. 

The soft-biddable-gentle pup is really better suited for older people who are steady, experienced with dogs, no what to expect with puppies, and have the patience to manage a dog that needs a patient, confident owner. They can be a dream for these people, because when comfortable, they are easy to train and easy to keep, when the owners identify areas that are troublesome for her, and keep her environment safe. 

A biddable-gentle-less-confident pup is probably the first I would suggest for a newbie. They need for you to be confident, but they are not skittish about normal things as your soft dogs often are. Being less confident will draw them to your confidence. And being biddable makes them easy to train and live with. Gentle, so that even if they are worried about something, they are unlikely to respond with aggression. 

Your biddable-confident pup is probably even better. They are unlikely to be weirded out over unusual things and are solid in normal situations. They can handle over-socialization, they can handle some corrections, but should still be easy to train, and will not need a lot of corrections. They can be very gentle, and some can be less so. 

Your hard-biddable-confident dog is pretty much unfazed by anything in the environment. They can take a correction and come right back to whatever it was. They can still be biddable. They have strong character and can be gentle with children and family members, and anyone their owner accepts. They can be a little less tolerant with unfair corrections because they are confident dogs. I would not expect them to come up the leash though they may be more likely to show aggression than the previous types. There is nothing wrong with appropriate aggression but it can be a liability. 

Your hard-confident-independent dog is is more dog than most people can handle. They generally need a job. They are the type of dog that needs to respect your leadership, else they will try and take on that role/make their own decisions. They can be one-person dogs. They can be dogs that will tolerate anything from their person, or they can be dogs that will come up the leash at their person if treated unfairly in their opinion. They may or may not be willing to be handled on every part of their body. They can be strong-willed or biddable once they have accepted you as the supreme being. You almost need to provide authoritarian leadership, lots of exercise, and something that works their mind as well. 

There have to be better descriptions of each type. More could be said, I'm sure. The take-away is that the dogs on the ends are not for beginners. They are for experienced people or they can easily get out of hand. The dogs in the middle are more likely to accept our blunders and not be totally thrown by them. Just because a soft dog does not bite you when you let your frustration go on them, does not mean everything is ok. The dog because far more distrustful, and can have trouble with that exercise for weeks, even months though you use all patience after the fact. So a soft dog is NOT necessarily the best choice for people who want to use a gentle approach.

I sound like I am contradicting myself. I'm not. Too many people have trouble with the gentle approach because they mistake it with permissive. The gentle approach requires incredible discipline, almost a perfectionist, especially with a soft dog. A soft-dog, and less-confident dog needs a very stable and very confident leader. 

A dog with a nice middle of the road temperament, my Karma. Nice, biddable, less-confident/confident, gentle. Well, I stepped on her foot and broke her toe in training. THAT HAD TO HURT. She yelped, did not try to bite, and when she came back to training had no problem with the exercise we were working on, even though the same fat clumsy Susie was next to her. 

A soft dog might bite or not when damaged. But recovering from something that scares them is often problematic. With a soft dog, if you are training two days before a show and the dog breaks his stay, and you, in desperation correct a little more strongly than usual, forget getting a title leg. It might take the dog weeks to come back to where you were originally. And that can look like stubbornness. If you treat a soft dog who is shutting down like a stubborn dog, than you are going to do damage. 

Ok, well, if you got through this, good, any more will probably be ineffective.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Okay well I have to respond to this:

according to this chart I guess I would rate my white dog as "biddable, gentle, less confident"

I would also like to say that this weekend we were at a trial. Day 1, first time into the building, I opened the door and somehow managed to run his foot over with it hard enough that he yelled pretty loudly. I am also clumsy and step on him from time to time.. He knows what the word "sorry" means. As long as I say sorry he knows it was an accident and no problem. Anyway, I ran his foot over, he yelled, and then we got on with our day and he got two legs towards his level 2 title offleash with jumps. 

Our usual campground was booked and we stayed at a different one. What a nightmare. They were having a pirate themed park wide water war. Literally to take my dogs potty I was ducking water balloons and water cannons from drunk people speeding around in gold carts and pickup trucks. Walking anywhere was running a gauntlet. I have never seen anything like it in my life. My dog walked through the midst of this chaos calmly...I was SUPER proud of him. They were shooting of fireworks right around the corner, right after dodging a water balloon a dog on a tie out came charging out at us and was caught up short by his cable tie. My dog did not respond to any of it.

I have corrected him for real a few times and he does not quit and he is not afraid of me. I don't believe I have ever given him a "real" correction related to obedience or training...i train for rally 99% offleash and the most he would ever get is a "nope" if he breaks eye contact heeling...and that nope is said in a fairly neutral voice, not a harsh tone. He is so biddable I feel that correcting him during obedience training is just silly, because he is trying SO hard to get it right, if he didn't it's basically on me to explain it better or do more repetitions. He has never gotten any corrections besides a stern "leave it" tracking...and that would be when he stopped tracking to eat some deer poop. But he has gotten a few corrections for things like considering blowing off a recall in the woods, or considering getting rude with another dog. He is intact and there have been a handful of times that another dog on leash sends him some rude signals and the testosterone goes to his head and he wants to respond in kind. I would not say he is reactive and he is definitely not dog aggressive, he just isn't mature enough yet to roll his eyes when some little punk flips him the bird.

So, this is a white dog that I think according to the descriptions you have listed here selzer, is pretty middle of the road.

I doubt that a shy fearful dog would be a good pet for mostly anyone. I think a dog like mine would probably be a good pet for a lot of people. When I said my dog was soft I did not mean to imply that he was shy or fearful because I do not think that is accurate. Maybe I used the word wrong

I will also agree with selzer that I think any GSD will require confident and semi intelligent handling. My dog has gotten a lot of feedback from me about when and how to act like a shepherd. When I say stop, he stops. For instance.


----------



## selzer

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay well I have to respond to this:
> 
> according to this chart I guess I would rate my white dog as "biddable, gentle, less confident"
> 
> I would also like to say that this weekend we were at a trial. Day 1, first time into the building, I opened the door and somehow managed to run his foot over with it hard enough that he yelled pretty loudly. I am also clumsy and step on him from time to time.. He knows what the word "sorry" means. As long as I say sorry he knows it was an accident and no problem. Anyway, I ran his foot over, he yelled, and then we got on with our day and he got two legs towards his level 2 title offleash with jumps.
> 
> Our usual campground was booked and we stayed at a different one. What a nightmare. They were having a pirate themed park wide water war. Literally to take my dogs potty I was ducking water balloons and water cannons from drunk people speeding around in gold carts and pickup trucks. Walking anywhere was running a gauntlet. I have never seen anything like it in my life. My dog walked through the midst of this chaos calmly...I was SUPER proud of him. They were shooting of fireworks right around the corner, right after dodging a water balloon a dog on a tie out came charging out at us and was caught up short by his cable tie. My dog did not respond to any of it.
> 
> I have corrected him for real a few times and he does not quit and he is not afraid of me. I don't believe I have ever given him a "real" correction related to obedience or training...i train for rally 99% offleash and the most he would ever get is a "nope" if he breaks eye contact heeling...and that nope is said in a fairly neutral voice, not a harsh tone. He is so biddable I feel that correcting him during obedience training is just silly, because he is trying SO hard to get it right, if he didn't it's basically on me to explain it better or do more repetitions. He has never gotten any corrections besides a stern "leave it" tracking...and that would be when he stopped tracking to eat some deer poop. But he has gotten a few corrections for things like considering blowing off a recall in the woods, or considering getting rude with another dog. He is intact and there have been a handful of times that another dog on leash sends him some rude signals and the testosterone goes to his head and he wants to respond in kind. I would not say he is reactive and he is definitely not dog aggressive, he just isn't mature enough yet to roll his eyes when some little punk flips him the bird.
> 
> So, this is a white dog that I think according to the descriptions you have listed here selzer, is pretty middle of the road.
> 
> I doubt that a shy fearful dog would be a good pet for mostly anyone. I think a dog like mine would probably be a good pet for a lot of people. When I said my dog was soft I did not mean to imply that he was shy or fearful because I do not think that is accurate. Maybe I used the word wrong
> 
> I will also agree with selzer that I think any GSD will require confident and semi intelligent handling. My dog has gotten a lot of feedback from me about when and how to act like a shepherd. When I say stop, he stops. For instance.


Yes, it sounds like yours is biddable-gentle-less-confident -- or biddible-gentle-confident -- a middle of the road pup which does make a good pet. 

Soft is, I think, generally considered a critter that will not recover quickly from anything that startles them, or from a correction. A dog can be simply soft -- poor at recovery. Or soft-shy/timid/fearful. Actually probably a lot of different variations. 

I guess I was really worried more about dogs being touted as soft, and people thinking that that would be best, and planning on gentle leadership/training techniques. Because yes, you probably need to use some gentle leadership with such a dog, but I would call it a patient-consistent leadership style. I think that with softer dogs you really need to be a stronger (more confident) leader, more trust-worthy, more disciplined. Whereas your middle of the road to stronger personalities, well they give you more leeway. You might get better results on obedience/rally runs by being a patient-consistent leader, but if you are a little less stable, sloppier on consistency, and less confident it is unlikely to create a dog with outward symptoms of a weak temperament -- like reactivity, fear biting and the like.


----------



## LancerandRara

selzer said:


> Soft is, I think, generally considered a critter that will not recover quickly from anything that startles them, or from a correction. A dog can be simply soft -- poor at recovery. Or soft-shy/timid/fearful. Actually probably a lot of different variations.


I think the difference of semantics and what people think of "soft" makes things kinda confusing. When I use soft or trainers I know use soft, it just means a dog who is handler-sensitive. The downside of that being they may get frustrated or discouraged easily, if they think their handler is unhappy or from a light verbal correction. But that doesn't necessarily make them environmentally or socially shy or fearful, doesn't equate to stability issues.

This "soft" is what I thought the OP meant they might be looking for?


----------



## KaiserAus

I can't speak for all of Australia but I do know that the German Shepherd Club of WA do not recognise white GSDs, they are all classed as Swiss Shepherds.

We were actually speaking to our trainer about this a week ago and she was the one who confirmed this. You won't find any white GSDs in our club.

Our trainer, who is from Germany, says in Germany they preferred the darker dog against the white snowy mountains to make it easier to spot, whereas the Swedish folk wanted a white dog that would be able to hide from the wolves and attack them more easily.


----------



## futureluna

selzer said:


> Be careful. Usually, a soft dog lacks confidence. A biddable dog is one that wants to do your bidding. You can use gentle approaches and praise and the dog will stand on its head and spit nickels for you, if you show it how. A soft dog is one that generally lacks confidence. These can be very biddable, but only so far as they are not unsure of what you want and their ability to do it. You cannot correct a soft dog as you would one with strong character, because the dog will shut down and be afraid of you.
> 
> The soft dog with a competent (experienced) handler can get on quite well. Probably because the experienced handler is walking out in confidence and the soft dog is attracted to that confidence and follows the leader.
> 
> A soft dog with an owner who lacks confidence can be a ticking time bomb. EVERY DOG WILL BITE. A soft dog who is pressed into a lot of uncomfortable situations, is easily overwhelmed and if the handler lacks confidence, the pup knows there is no help to be had there, and the dog might use any number of coping mechanisms -- reactivity probably being the most common. Hair up, backing up or lunching forward, snarling, snapping, and if someone gets too close the dog will become a fear-biter.
> 
> Dogs bite mostly out of fear. Usually dogs with weak nerves bite out of fear. Usually they are handled by novice owners often employing gentle training methods and an over-abundance of socialization.
> 
> Socialization, too soon, too much, can be worse than none at all.
> 
> When you get your puppy, use that first week or two to become its best buddy. Be firm and gentle -- NOT PERMISSIVE. You need to have confidence for your puppy. So even if you think you've made a mistake, maintain your confident air. Work it out later, and determine how to avoid the situation again, but the pup can handle a mistake by you much better than anxiety and indecision.
> 
> If you can project confidence and are trustworthy -- consistent, praise when praise is due, good timing, stable (not yelling at your puppy or anyone else), etc., then you can raise a soft-biddible dog without ever raising your voice or using any type of correction collar. You will be able to let her know by the tone of your voice that she didn't do something right or did the bad thing. And yes, the ears will show you. They go back in respect, but they can also go back in worry or when they know you aren't happy. Make training 95+% happy, up-beat, praise-worthy. Always start with something fun that she will be successful at. Always end sessions with something fun, that she will be successful at. Keep sessions short. Don't train when you are in a bad mood or rushed. Do not be permissive, don't hack off your communication by not letting her know that she did not do it right. But set her up to succeed and praise her for doing it.
> 
> With a soft dog, you need to build her confidence. And you need to be confident. You need to be very disciplined. If you let your frustration or anger out, it will be much more difficult than with a dog that is not soft. There is no hurry, and taking a day off or a week off in training/socialization will not hurt, where training the dog when you are likely to be short with the pup or unfair with it, can put you way back. They can remember a long time. So discipline (yourself) very important: Do not let your anger/frustration leak onto the puppy. Do not give commands she has little hope of obeying unless you are connected and can immediately follow through. For example, do not call your dog to come when she is playing with a bunch of puppies off lead. Teach commands on leash first, then add in distractions, then start to go off lead in a safe place. Because you don't want her to believe that commands are optional. Follow through every time. Praise whenever she comes to you. Never call her to rat her out about anything. Potty mistakes in the house are because you didn't get her out on time. Just clean it up, and take her out more frequently.
> 
> I would not suggest a soft puppy for a HS kid. Sorry. I would suggest a middle of the road pup. Puppies' temperament is not exact, and not necessarily bad/wrong. Packs of dogs needed a spectrum of temperaments to function as a pack. But some dogs are more likely to forgive mistakes, to handle situations, to take correction, etc. Your soft-biddable-gentle dog has limits, and if we over-whelm this dog with normal situations, we can turn her into a fearful bundle of nerves that can become dangerous as well.
> 
> soft-shy-fearful
> soft-biddable-gentle
> biddable-gentle-less confident
> biddable-confident
> hard-biddable-confident
> hard-confident-independent.
> 
> I am sure there are better descriptions of GSD temperaments. The soft-shy-fearful pup is certainly not what you want. While you may make a pet of one of them, you will always be making allowances for the dog and trying to stay within her bubble of what is comfortable. You may not be able to have friends over because you have a dog that can easily be terrified by normal situations.
> 
> The soft-biddable-gentle pup is really better suited for older people who are steady, experienced with dogs, no what to expect with puppies, and have the patience to manage a dog that needs a patient, confident owner. They can be a dream for these people, because when comfortable, they are easy to train and easy to keep, when the owners identify areas that are troublesome for her, and keep her environment safe.
> 
> A biddable-gentle-less-confident pup is probably the first I would suggest for a newbie. They need for you to be confident, but they are not skittish about normal things as your soft dogs often are. Being less confident will draw them to your confidence. And being biddable makes them easy to train and live with. Gentle, so that even if they are worried about something, they are unlikely to respond with aggression.
> 
> Your biddable-confident pup is probably even better. They are unlikely to be weirded out over unusual things and are solid in normal situations. They can handle over-socialization, they can handle some corrections, but should still be easy to train, and will not need a lot of corrections. They can be very gentle, and some can be less so.
> 
> Your hard-biddable-confident dog is pretty much unfazed by anything in the environment. They can take a correction and come right back to whatever it was. They can still be biddable. They have strong character and can be gentle with children and family members, and anyone their owner accepts. They can be a little less tolerant with unfair corrections because they are confident dogs. I would not expect them to come up the leash though they may be more likely to show aggression than the previous types. There is nothing wrong with appropriate aggression but it can be a liability.
> 
> Your hard-confident-independent dog is is more dog than most people can handle. They generally need a job. They are the type of dog that needs to respect your leadership, else they will try and take on that role/make their own decisions. They can be one-person dogs. They can be dogs that will tolerate anything from their person, or they can be dogs that will come up the leash at their person if treated unfairly in their opinion. They may or may not be willing to be handled on every part of their body. They can be strong-willed or biddable once they have accepted you as the supreme being. You almost need to provide authoritarian leadership, lots of exercise, and something that works their mind as well.
> 
> There have to be better descriptions of each type. More could be said, I'm sure. The take-away is that the dogs on the ends are not for beginners. They are for experienced people or they can easily get out of hand. The dogs in the middle are more likely to accept our blunders and not be totally thrown by them. Just because a soft dog does not bite you when you let your frustration go on them, does not mean everything is ok. The dog because far more distrustful, and can have trouble with that exercise for weeks, even months though you use all patience after the fact. So a soft dog is NOT necessarily the best choice for people who want to use a gentle approach.
> 
> I sound like I am contradicting myself. I'm not. Too many people have trouble with the gentle approach because they mistake it with permissive. The gentle approach requires incredible discipline, almost a perfectionist, especially with a soft dog. A soft-dog, and less-confident dog needs a very stable and very confident leader.
> 
> A dog with a nice middle of the road temperament, my Karma. Nice, biddable, less-confident/confident, gentle. Well, I stepped on her foot and broke her toe in training. THAT HAD TO HURT. She yelped, did not try to bite, and when she came back to training had no problem with the exercise we were working on, even though the same fat clumsy Susie was next to her.
> 
> A soft dog might bite or not when damaged. But recovering from something that scares them is often problematic. With a soft dog, if you are training two days before a show and the dog breaks his stay, and you, in desperation correct a little more strongly than usual, forget getting a title leg. It might take the dog weeks to come back to where you were originally. And that can look like stubbornness. If you treat a soft dog who is shutting down like a stubborn dog, than you are going to do damage.
> 
> Ok, well, if you got through this, good, any more will probably be ineffective.


Lots of great advice, thank you! It is still at least a few years away for me, so I have a lot of learning, growing and research to do in the time. I definitely want to do this right for the dog, but it will be a future decision. I am just really dedicated to researching to make sure I make the right decision when it comes to it :laugh2:


----------



## Dunkirk

Have you considered volunteering for a german shepherd rescue group? This will give you hands on experience with the breed. It would give you more freedom too. My 3 uni kids travelled a lot while they were studying. One spent 6 months studying internationally. They all headed off overseas like a shot as soon as they were finished with uni.


----------



## lhczth

The term soft is often used to mean biddable. Soft doesn't always mean the dog lacks in confidence or is fearful. It often means the dog tends to be more sensitive to corrections (physical or verbal) which is not a bad thing unless the handler is heavy handed. It can also can mean what Selzer says where the dog lacks confidence, but here it would be used to denote a dog that isn't strong enough to confront a helper/decoy/bad guy or deal with the heat or other things that would require a strong confident pushy dog to do a job. Soft can often be a good thing in pet homes and probably why Goldens are often so popular. I have never used the word soft to denote a fearful dog. 

And thus the problem with dog terms. No one ever agrees on their meaning.


----------



## selzer

Well "hard" is a term that says the dog will recover right away from a correction or anything that might startle him. It can also mean the dog is rock-solid when it comes to nerve-courage. So, "soft" is kind of the opposite of "hard." 

I have handler-sensitive dogs and I love them. I don't need to hurt my throat or yank on a collar for them to do what I want. But they, most of them, are not weenies, and recovery time as pups for new stuff that might be tough, is almost instantaneous. I mean, if they hear something slam down behind them, they may react by flinching but it is immediately followed by turning toward the thing to find out what it was. One of my crazy bitches, was returned to me, and my neighbor was shooting off his elephant gun, and all three of us humans jumped. The dog did too, but she immediately went toward the gun shot trying to figure out where it was coming from. She was a soft dog, certainly handler sensitive, but her owners were told by two separate trainers that she was hard, and stubborn. I got her back and she settled in. She was softer than most of mine, a Babsy puppy. A handler sensitive dog can be considered soft, yes. They can shut down if they don't know what you want them to do because they don't want to do the wrong thing. They can be more of a challenge for this reason, but if you know that going in, you can avoid the common pit falls.


----------



## futureluna

KaiserAus said:


> I can't speak for all of Australia but I do know that the German Shepherd Club of WA do not recognise white GSDs, they are all classed as Swiss Shepherds.
> 
> We were actually speaking to our trainer about this a week ago and she was the one who confirmed this. You won't find any white GSDs in our club.
> 
> Our trainer, who is from Germany, says in Germany they preferred the darker dog against the white snowy mountains to make it easier to spot, whereas the Swedish folk wanted a white dog that would be able to hide from the wolves and attack them more easily.


Yep, my research tells me they are actually quite distinguished as a different breed. To me I even find they look quite different to GSDs, even white GSDs.


----------



## futureluna

lhczth said:


> The term soft is often used to mean biddable. Soft doesn't always mean the dog lacks in confidence or is fearful. It often means the dog tends to be more sensitive to corrections (physical or verbal) which is not a bad thing unless the handler is heavy handed. It can also can mean what Selzer says where the dog lacks confidence, but here it would be used to denote a dog that isn't strong enough to confront a helper/decoy/bad guy or deal with the heat or other things that would require a strong confident pushy dog to do a job. Soft can often be a good thing in pet homes and probably why Goldens are often so popular. I have never used the word soft to denote a fearful dog.
> 
> And thus the problem with dog terms. No one ever agrees on their meaning.


That is the soft I am after, and in my opinion, what a well bred 'soft' dog should be. I don't see soft as fearful, I see soft as sensitive in the sense of golden retrievers as you mentioned. I am not a person who would be heavy handed, I believe i sit very much as assertive rather than either passive or aggressive, as my current dog is quite sensitive to how I train her and I've learned from that.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> ...The Swiss Shepherd is a White German Shepherd Dog.
> ...So the AKC will not allow white ones to compete in conformation, and they will not allow the Swiss Shepherd because it is just a white GSD.
> ...Temperament wise, they are GSDs. I saw a great white dog doing utility at a show. But mostly they can have issues.
> ...Since it is impossible to show (AKC), there is no reason to try to meet the standard in other ways. And a lot of people breeding just for color are also breeding for whatever sells. And this can tend toward temperament issues.
> ...If you like the color and choose to get a Swiss Shepherd (registered as such by some kennel club other than AKC), make sure it is a reputable (FCI) kennel club. Or just look for GSD breeders who produce white dogs.


Selzer, please stop. 
The White Swiss Shepherd is a recognized breed in all FCI countries and the UKC in the US who recognizes both the white GSD and the White Shepherd. They were recently recognized by the Kennel Club in England. (effective Oct 2017) The White Swiss Shepherd is NOT a German Shepherd Dog. The majority of the registries in the world make a clear distinction between the WSS and the GSD. I think it's time you and others allowed this breed to stand on it's own and stop insisting that they're GSD's. 

BTW, the OP is in Australia. Domestic white GSD's are not classified as WSS with the ANKC. When the ANKC recognized the WSS they stated that all Australian whites were considered German Shepherd Dogs, not White Swiss Shepherds unless imported and registered under ANKC regulations. Key word here...IMPORTED. The ANKC did not and does not recognize the domestic white GSD or WS as WSS's. There was a vote taken in the last year that had it passed, would have allowed the domestic white GSD into the breed if it met certain conditions....the vote failed. The Kennel Club in England is taking the same route as the ANKC. Domestic white stock will not be allowed into their registry. So again, a White Swiss Shepherd is NOT a German Shepherd Dog.

When you tell someone they should look for a WSS or someone who produces white GSD's you're implying that the breeds are interchangeable. As a breeder of GSD's I would think you of all people would know better. To have seen one white dog at a trial and from that decide whites have the same temperament as the GSD but mostly they have issues???? How? HUH???

If you want to expound on the reasons why people should not breed against the AKC standard and produce whites go for it, just remember you're talking about white colored GSD's whose breeders wants to remain part of the GSD breed, not every white dog out there. Stop implying WSS breeders (or White Shepherd breeders for that matter) have any obligation to follow the AKC GSD breed standard or are somehow less reputable than those producing colored GSD's. Different breeds, different standards...can't say it enough times.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

futureluna- If this is a breed you're interested in, try going to some local shows/trials, join the WSS clubs in your area, get to know the breeders, consider becoming a junior handler, get to know people who own this breed. The same can be said for becoming more familiar with the GSD. The more time you spend with these breeds the easier it will be for you to decide which one is right for you.

One of the words used to describe the WSS in their standard is joyful. This video (from Aus.) shows some happy looking dogs. Thought you'd enjoy it.


----------



## sebrench

I didn't mean to imply that my white shepherd was neurotically soft. I may misuse or misunderstand the terminology. He has done everything I've ever asked him to do--he's great with my young kids, stable in public, non-reactive. I take him with me all over town and he's a good citizen. He is not the boldest dog around (example: we went to the vet last week, and after shots and exam, he stood halfway behind my legs and did not want to approach the vet again. I wish he had stood his ground, but he didn't hackle or snarl or tremble or do anything obnoxious, and he followed his commands). I also didn't mean to imply that he melts with normal leash corrections. I do correct him when necessary. I don't think he would do well being yanked around, shouted at, or with a trainer who is more like a drill-sergeant--if that makes sense. I definitely cannot imagine anyone calling him a hard dog.

[My conventional GSDs are great too. I said in my first post, I had to be a little firmer with them, which is true. But all my GSDs have been awesome. I spend far more time having fun with them than correcting them.]


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

If my dog made a mistake in the ring training for obedience and I lost my temper and nailed him with a hard correction or yelled at him, I bet he would take it hard.

And you know what, I wouldn't blame him or think he was any less of a dog because he tries SO hard that if I got mad at him, something is wrong with me, not him. And if he did something wrong it would be an honest mistake.

Case in point: we did jumps this weekend for the first time in a trial. We were under prepared and I knew that going in. He had to send from 6' to the jump for full points. The only ring nearby for run thrus is half the size of the one at trial and there isn't room for the long send in open space with no signs around. And we had made a whopping 1 run thru in preparation....I could go on. But I knew we were way under prepared. Our first run I gambled and tried to send him from the full distance. And he ran almost to the jump, got flustered, looked back at me like "what was I supposed to do?" I totally know the feeling, because right after that, I got lost on the course and had to look at the judge and go "where are we supposed to go?" by then we already had no score so she helped me get back on course.

I know exactly why he didn't take the jump and I sure didn't correct him for missing it. I just called him back, sent him again and praised him like crazy when he got over it on the second try. 

And he went and had 2 more runs with good jumps and good scores and all things considered, I am super happy with him this weekend. He always goes back in the ring and gives it his very best shot, even if I suck at doing my part, even if I am a bundle of nerves and not helping him like I should.

I have not met a ton of white shepherds so I really can't speak for all of them. I enjoy the heck out of the one I have. the only other white shepherd I have seen at competition is a rescue dog andoes even that one is a nice stable dog who performs very well for his owner

the bottom line is you can't skimp on due diligence picking a breeder. Gotta see the dogs, gotta see health testing, gotta see titles. And besides that, a bigger picture...how long as the person been in dogs, what have dogs of their breeding accomplished, what is their real understanding of the dogs. Because I would be willing to bet there are plenty of people cranking out working line pups from two random parents that are not going to be any more suitable or stable than some shy backyard bred crap puppies of any color.


----------



## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> Selzer, please stop.
> The White Swiss Shepherd is a recognized breed in all FCI countries and the UKC in the US who recognizes both the white GSD and the White Shepherd. They were recently recognized by the Kennel Club in England. (effective Oct 2017) The White Swiss Shepherd is NOT a German Shepherd Dog. The majority of the registries in the world make a clear distinction between the WSS and the GSD. I think it's time you and others allowed this breed to stand on it's own and stop insisting that they're GSD's.
> 
> BTW, the OP is in Australia. Domestic white GSD's are not classified as WSS with the ANKC. When the ANKC recognized the WSS they stated that all Australian whites were considered German Shepherd Dogs, not White Swiss Shepherds unless imported and registered under ANKC regulations. Key word here...IMPORTED. The ANKC did not and does not recognize the domestic white GSD or WS as WSS's. There was a vote taken in the last year that had it passed, would have allowed the domestic white GSD into the breed if it met certain conditions....the vote failed. The Kennel Club in England is taking the same route as the ANKC. Domestic white stock will not be allowed into their registry. So again, a White Swiss Shepherd is NOT a German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> When you tell someone they should look for a WSS or someone who produces white GSD's you're implying that the breeds are interchangeable. As a breeder of GSD's I would think you of all people would know better. To have seen one white dog at a trial and from that decide whites have the same temperament as the GSD but mostly they have issues???? How? HUH???
> 
> If you want to expound on the reasons why people should not breed against the AKC standard and produce whites go for it, just remember you're talking about white colored GSD's whose breeders wants to remain part of the GSD breed, not every white dog out there. Stop implying WSS breeders (or White Shepherd breeders for that matter) have any obligation to follow the AKC GSD breed standard or are somehow less reputable than those producing colored GSD's. Different breeds, different standards...can't say it enough times.


Besides German Shepherd Dogs, what breeds went into the making of the WSS or the Berger Blanc Shepherd or whatever the heck they are calling them this week?


----------



## futureluna

selzer said:


> Besides German Shepherd Dogs, what breeds went into the making of the WSS or the Berger Blanc Shepherd or whatever the heck they are calling them this week?


I'm sure someone will soon give you a smarter answer, but from my very limited knowledge the Berger Blanc Suisse (the White Swiss Shepherd) has the same/very similar genetic breed heritage as the regular GSD. I'm unaware of any new breed mixes HOWEVER I believe the difference in temperaments stems from what the dogs were used for, and from the beginning I believe whites were not used for the same work due to their colour and were almost eradicated due to them being determined essentially useless.

Due to them being nearly eradicated, I can assume that they were bred with something else to regenerate the breed? White bloodlines I believe have been kept quite closed off for a while now, however there are still genuinely White GSDs I believe, it would just be a recessive gene. 

BBS or WSS are seperate to this from what I read, from what I know just due to history of breeding and bloodlines as well as what they were used for. If you google images, I find they even look quite different to GSDs, and they don't suffer from hip problems as bad either.

Don't quote me on any of this, I'm sure someone who knows much more will answer it properly :smile2::nerd:


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> Besides German Shepherd Dogs, what breeds went into the making of the WSS or the Berger Blanc Shepherd or whatever the heck they are calling them this week?


You don't have to use two different breeds to create a new breed. Each individual dog breed is the result of selective breeding over a period of time which results in a unique group of animals whose phenotype and genotype distinguish them from other animals.


----------



## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> You don't have to use two different breeds to create a new breed. Each individual dog breed is the result of selective breeding over a period of time which results in a unique group of animals whose phenotype and genotype distinguish them from other animals.


If all that is in there is German Shepherd Dogs, then it is a German Shepherd Dog. If it is mixed with Swiss mountain dogs, samoyeds, or any number of other dogs or dogs of the area, than it would not be a German Shepherd Dog. As far as I can tell it is a German Shepherd Dog, and this is why the AKC will not accept them as another breed. Because they aren't another breed. They are just a GSD with a more limited gene pool. 

futureluna, it is not a recessive gene it is a masking gene.


----------



## voodoolamb

selzer said:


> If all that is in there is German Shepherd Dogs, then it is a German Shepherd Dog. If it is mixed with Swiss mountain dogs, samoyeds, or any number of other dogs or dogs of the area, than it would not be a German Shepherd Dog. As far as I can tell it is a German Shepherd Dog, and this is why the AKC will not accept them as another breed. Because they aren't another breed. They are just a GSD with a more limited gene pool.


No.

Bergers have been bred to a DIFFERENT STANDARD than the GSD for GENERATIONS.

It doesn't LOOK like a GSD. It doesn't ACT like a GSD. It has it's own breed clubs. It has been recognized as a separate breed by other national kennel clubs AND the FCI. 

Just because the BBSCA hasn't gone through the motions to get the berger accepted into the FSS of the AKC and go forth with full AKC recognition does NOT mean that it is just a white GSD.

That is so insulting to the fanciers of that breed. AND to fanciers of GSDs bred to our breed standard.

ETA: I looked it up... the BBSCA has only existed since 2014. We all know it can take YEARS for a breed club to get their dogs recognized by the AKC. The lack of AKC recognition has NOTHING TO DO with the swiss shepherd not being it's own breed...


----------



## Jenny720

Swiss shepherds a nice looking dog kind of reminds me of a Samoyed in a German shepherd body. I had never met one only seen them on the internet.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> No.
> 
> Bergers have been bred to a DIFFERENT STANDARD than the GSD for GENERATIONS.
> 
> It doesn't LOOK like a GSD. It doesn't ACT like a GSD. It has it's own breed clubs. It has been recognized as a separate breed by other national kennel clubs AND the FCI.
> 
> Just because the BBSCA hasn't gone through the motions to get the berger accepted into the FSS of the AKC and go forth with full AKC recognition does NOT mean that it is just a white GSD.
> 
> That is so insulting to the fanciers of that breed. AND to fanciers of GSDs bred to our breed standard.
> 
> ETA: I looked it up... the BBSCA has only existed since 2014. We all know it can take YEARS for a breed club to get their dogs recognized by the AKC. The lack of AKC recognition has NOTHING TO DO with the swiss shepherd not being it's own breed...


It is almost like how the show GSD differs from work and pet lines. Don't even have to be a breeder to understand the genetic data presented.


----------



## voodoolamb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is almost like how the show GSD differs from work and pet lines. Don't even have to be a breeder to understand the genetic data presented.
> 
> View attachment 435954


Truth!

But I have to say... I do respect the Berger Blanc people. They new they wanted a different dog than the GSD. Instead of watering down our breed they came up with their own standard, their own breed name, they set up their own breed clubs, etc... 

As far as creating a new breed goes... they are one of the few that did it the "right" way.


----------



## selzer

Can you, any of you that are fanciers of this "new" breed of dog, give an example of some other breeds that have declared themselves a different breed, without introducing other breeds of dogs into themselves? 

I think the hunting line of English setters are now called Llewelyn Setters, but I am not sure if they are AKC recognized. Are there any other breeds that were created from a single breed and are now separate. The Belgian Sheepdogs all used to be one breed, but are separated by their coat type, and I think they cannot cross the lines anymore. Not sure of that. I think it used to be that you could register more than one breed out of a litter, depending on coat type, and the AKC has made a ruling that they would no longer introduce any new breeds that are only different in color or coat type.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Truth!
> 
> But I have to say... I do respect the Berger Blanc people. They new they wanted a different dog than the GSD. Instead of watering down our breed they came up with their own standard, their own breed name, they set up their own breed clubs, etc...
> 
> As far as creating a new breed goes... they are one of the few that did it the "right" way.


That is the way it should be when the breed standard doesn't suit one.


----------



## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is the way it should be when the breed standard doesn't suit one.


In that case, those fanciers that no longer agree with the breed club and how their judges interpret the standard should go and make their own breed and stop pissing and moaning about what everyone else should do.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> In that case, those fanciers that no longer agree with the breed club and how their judges interpret the standard should go and make their own breed and stop pissing and moaning about what everyone else should do.


From the charted genetic data, it appears that show line people have already created a new breed separate and apart.


----------



## cloudpump

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is the way it should be when the breed standard doesn't suit one.


It's a shame how temperament is put tok the back burner.


----------



## voodoolamb

selzer said:


> Can you, any of you that are fanciers of this "new" breed of dog, give an example of some other breeds that have declared themselves a different breed, without introducing other breeds of dogs into themselves?


Parson Terrier - derived from Jack Russels. Difference of leg length

American Hairless Terrier - derived from Rat Terriers with genetic mutation for a different coat type

American Staffordshire Bull Terrier - derived from American Pit Bull Terriers by fanciers who wanted a different temperament and body type

American Cocker Spaniel - Derived from the English Cocker. 

Norfolk Terrier - Split from the Norwich back in the 60s. Change in ear type


----------



## cloudpump

Pembroke and Cardigan Welsh Corgis


----------



## Jenny720

Has the white Swiss shepherd solved everyone's problem? Does not sound like it to me. no one will solve anything but ripping apart another line. People sure reap what they sew for sure. Spinning empty wheels only digging the hole deeper. Kind of reminds of the religious wars but in a way much much much smaller scale. Everyone looking at the other weakness's accept their own. It is typical and easier i suppose.


----------



## voodoolamb

cloudpump said:


> Pembroke and Cardigan Welsh Corgis


Australian Cattle Dogs and Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dogs.


----------



## cloudpump

voodoolamb said:


> Australian Cattle Dogs and Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dogs.


Is the temperament on those different? I never understood how not having a tail didnt throw off the balance....


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> As far as I can tell it is a German Shepherd Dog, and this is why the AKC will not accept them as another breed. Because they aren't another breed. They are just a GSD with a more limited gene pool.
> 
> futureluna, it is not a recessive gene it is a masking gene.


The AKC is not opposed to the establishment of the breed in their registry, it's the GSDCA Board that's stopping it. 

The whites do not have a limited gene pool they have a reciprocal registration problem between registries. 

The gene is recessive. (it's also a masking gene)


----------



## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> Can you, any of you that are fanciers of this "new" breed of dog, give an example of some other breeds that have declared themselves a different breed, without introducing other breeds of dogs into themselves?


One of the most recent; Australian Shepherd - Miniature American Shepherd - AKC



selzer said:


> The Belgian Sheepdogs all used to be one breed, but are separated by their coat type, and I think they cannot cross the lines anymore.


The AKC recognizes them as 4 different breeds, the FCI recognizes them as one breed with 4 varieties.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

voodoolamb said:


> ETA: I looked it up... the BBSCA has only existed since 2014. We all know it can take YEARS for a breed club to get their dogs recognized by the AKC. The lack of AKC recognition has NOTHING TO DO with the swiss shepherd not being it's own breed...


The BBSCA approached the GSDCA in January of2015 asking that they (GSDCA) not oppose the establishment of the FCI Berger Blanc Suisse in the AKC FSS program. Spokesman for both the White German Shepherd Dog Club of America and the American White Shepherd Association opposed to the request. (for different reasons) The GSDCA board voted unanimously to deny the request.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

What were the reasons for the two groups opposing it? If you know. Just curious


----------



## cliffson1

Futureluna, this is why some of us are telling you to go out and witness/experience the answers to many of your questions. Facts and reality are much better educators than opinions on an internet.


----------



## futureluna

​


cliffson1 said:


> Futureluna, this is why some of us are telling you to go out and witness/experience the answers to many of your questions. Facts and reality are much better educators than opinions on an internet.


Aha I know, I just currently can't. But plan to when I can. I apologise I'm just very curious.


----------



## cliffson1

No need to apologize, I'm sure you'll find some shows in your area.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

cliffson1 said:


> No need to apologize, I'm sure you'll find some shows in your area.


Honestly, I'd go a step further than this if I were you--OP. Here's why: you go to a show or a competition and you are mostly going to see dogs that people have put years of effort into, dogs that have been around. (doing this is still valuable, and I Agree that you should)

Well to be honest I've never been to a conformation show so someone please correct me if I am wrong. But I have been to a fair amount of AKC club events for tracking, obedience trials and stuff like that. Most of the dogs there are presenting themselves very well.

I remember seeing a GSD at some big event in Boston once when I was probably a teenager. I think it was a therapy dog, it was part of some kind of presentation, and it knew like 100 tricks which it performed, you could pet it, this dog was impeccable. I thought--I've got to have one of those. Without a CLUE as to the amount of work that went into getting that dog to that point.

If you have never been on the end of a leash behind a GSD when it blows its lid, or if you have never been in front of one when that happens, you may not really know what kind of power you may have to harness, and not be intimidated by. I think unsuspecting people get GSDs all the time and are totally unprepared for the first adolescent barking fit where they then think their dog is "aggressive" or "vicious" or they are just straight up intimidated or have no clue what to do about it or how to stop the dog.

I saw one GSD puppy at a trial, and it was really young, but it was on the end of its leash barking up a ferocious little storm at anything that went by. To their credit, the owner was pretty unfazed by it and just continued to deal with the puppy, but I could imagine a puppy like that throwing the average pet owner for a loop. It was a feisty little bugger.

I don't know exactly where to tell you to go see a less well trained GSD...but if you volunteer at your local shelter maybe one would come through or maybe you would at least get some confidence handling big dogs that aren't behaving very well. Just a thought.


----------



## TwoBigEars

selzer said:


> In that case, those fanciers that no longer agree with the breed club and how their judges interpret the standard should go and make their own breed and stop pissing and moaning about what everyone else should do.


Funny how that's essentially what happened with white shepherds/BBS, yet German shepherd people are the ones still "pissing and moaning" about it.



voodoolamb said:


> The lack of AKC recognition has NOTHING TO DO with the swiss shepherd not being it's own breed...


This. Whether people like it or not, white shepherds ARE a separate breed now in several kennel clubs. Just because AKC doesn't recognize a breed, doesn't mean it's not a breed. There are many breeds around the world not recognized by AKC.

OP, white shepherds are fantastic dogs and if that is what you're interested in, go for it! Since you're in Australia (I think?), I can't help with breeders. But there are a number of breeders here in the US (and other countries where white shepherds are now a separate breed) that are dedicated to health and temperament, not just coat color, another myth bandied about by GSD people who have a problem with whites. 

Yes, there unethical breeders and backyard breeders who breed whites only for their color, but they are not the ONLY breeders of white shepherds. Just like with German shepherds, there are ethical breeders striving for good temperament and health, and there are unethical breeders looking for a quick buck. Learning to tell the difference between those breeders is an important part of finding a puppy in any breed.


----------



## Steve Strom

This thread seems to have morphed with the bonking thread, with Voodoo showing off her fastball.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What were the reasons for the two groups opposing it? If you know. Just curious


I can try and in case anyone questions this, I was part of this process, this isn't second hand information. 

The white German Shepherd Dog clubs (there are two) have always opposed removing the whites from the GSD breed (which would require a change in the GSD breed standard). They have also always opposed allowing those whites who have been bred to the WS standard to leave voluntarily. (which is what happened in the UKC -they now have a White Shepherd breed and also white colored GSD's.) 

The BBSCA at the time (2015) was a very small group of people who were also AWSA and UWSC members, decided the FCI BBS had a better chance of getting into the AKC FSS program than the domestic white stock in the US. For whatever reason they chose to keep their club and plans quiet. (My guess is because they didn't want anyone to try and stop them.) Their request to the GSDCA was specifically that they not oppose the establishment of the FCI BBS in the AKC FSS program, and stated they were not requesting that the GSDCA to allow whites to leave the GSD breed nor were they requesting the UKC White Shepherds be allowed into the foundation stock. If memory serves me right they stated their club had 13 members and 30 FCI BBS in their registry.

The AWSA board and the majority of the AWSA membership did not know the BBSCA club existed until 2 days before the meeting with the GSDCA board. AWSA's goals for recognition have always been to unify the whites. UKC and AWSA White Shepherds, AKC white GSD's bred to the WS breed standard, FCI BBS. Because AWSA club members did not know about this BBSCA request the AWSA board had no choice but to oppose it. Had it been accepted possibly hundreds of our domestic stock would have been excluded from the FSS program and consequently the gene pool. The AWSA board like in most clubs, works for the membership. They represent the dogs in the AWSA registry and the breeders/owners of those dogs. It's board could not support a vote that it's club members did not know was happening certainly not when it possibly meant that domestic stock would be left out of the process. 

AWSA, the WGSDCA and others who spoke during the meeting did not have a vote, they were only allowed to voice their opinions. The vote by the GSDCA board on this matter was done behind closed doors. All we know is they voted unanimously to reject the BBSCA's request.

What could have happened in the AKC, did happen in Australia in the ANKC (unless things have changed since Jan 2017) and is now happening in the Kennel Club in England. Both registries only allow/allowed imported FCI BBS into their stud book. (and subsequent animals produced by those imports) The domestic stock in these countries, often the bloodlines that helped build the BBS breed, have been and will in all probability continue to be left out of the breed.

No one can explain the road to breed recognition in a few paragraphs, it's very complicated. It's a long, painful, frustrating process. Clubs make mistakes, people get emotional, registries are inconsistent with their rules etc. You go left, you go right, you just keep trying to move forward. My opinion is breeders in the US will continue to import and export the whites and gradually build up the FCI BBS breed because that probably is the best hope for getting the whites recognized in the AKC. My only hope is that the process isn't done so quickly that we lose domestic bloodlines. Time will tell.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

@Whiteshepherds did I understand you to say that AWSA wants to unify AKC white shepherds, UKC white shepherds and BBS?

Aren't BBS breeding to a different standard?


----------



## TwoBigEars

Thank you for the explanation, Whiteshepherds! I was wondering what was happening regarding the GSDCA and white shepherds, and why nothing seemed to be happening. Sounds very complicated.

How would separating white shepherds from GSDs requiring changing the GSD standard? White is already a disqualifying fault anyway?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

TwoBigEars said:


> How would separating white shepherds from GSDs requiring changing the GSD standard? White is already a disqualifying fault anyway?


White is a disqualifying fault in the AKC GSD breed but that disqualification only prevents the whites from competing in the AKC conformation ring They can still be registered as AKC GSD's hence the need for a change in the standard if the GSDCA wanted to totally remove them from the breed like they did in the SV. The standard would have to be changed to indicate whites weren't allowed and the AKC would no longer be able to register them as GSD's. 
A change to the AKC GSD breed standard requires a vote by the GSDCA membership, it is not something the Board can decide.


----------



## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> White is a disqualifying fault in the AKC GSD breed but that disqualification only prevents the whites from competing in the AKC conformation ring They can still be registered as AKC GSD's hence the need for a change in the standard if the GSDCA wanted to totally remove them from the breed like they did in the SV. The standard would have to be changed to indicate whites weren't allowed and the AKC would no longer be able to register them as GSD's.
> A change to the AKC GSD breed standard requires a vote by the GSDCA membership, it is not something the Board can decide.


No way would most American GSD breeders want this. Since I breed WGSLs for the most part, I have never produced a white, and I never expect to, and I really don't want to. But if I did, I would want to offer papers with the pup. The pup would be a German Shepherd Dog. Calling it by a different name does not make it a different breed.


----------



## LeoRose

Whiteshepherds said:


> White is a disqualifying fault in the AKC GSD breed but that disqualification only prevents the whites from competing in the AKC conformation ring They can still be registered as AKC GSD's hence the need for a change in the standard if the GSDCA wanted to totally remove them from the breed like they did in the SV. The standard would have to be changed to indicate whites weren't allowed and the AKC would no longer be able to register them as GSD's.
> A change to the AKC GSD breed standard requires a vote by the GSDCA membership, it is not something the Board can decide.





selzer said:


> No way would most American GSD breeders want this. Since I breed WGSLs for the most part, I have never produced a white, and I never expect to, and I really don't want to. But if I did, I would want to offer papers with the pup. The pup would be a German Shepherd Dog. Calling it by a different name does not make it a different breed.


The DPCA tried to have albino ("white") Dobermans not be registerable. Didn't work. There is at least a way to track them in pedigrees, though. Any Doberman descended from the original albino bitch, be they albino or recognized color, have a Z in there registration number. 

Unlike a white GSD, a "white" (cream, creme, blonde, or whatever the heck else people want to call them) Doberman actually IS an albino.


----------



## selzer

I think there is albino-ism in GSDs but it is very rare. I think a white with a pink nose and paw pads, and eye rims would be an albino, but I could be wrong about that.


----------



## futureluna

selzer said:


> I think there is albino-ism in GSDs but it is very rare. I think a white with a pink nose and paw pads, and eye rims would be an albino, but I could be wrong about that.


I believe so too. A lot of white breeders I've seen will often note about the dark pigmentation of their dogs' noses & such. Albino dogs have those light noses and eyes, but an actual white GSD or a BBS will have dark pigment. Don't quote me on that I'm not 100% certain.


----------



## TwoBigEars

I guess I'm still not understanding why this would require removing white from the GSD breed standard. Several breeds come in white, so why would a new breed mean white GSDs should not be register-able? White GSDs and WS/BBS could still be separate breeds.


----------

