# Questions on Neturing and at what age?



## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

We have a 6 months old Male, and are planing on getting him neutered tomorrow, Been reading different suggestions , Some say not to neuter your male at a early age, as it effects their drive as far as training etc. most police dogs from what i read are not neutered. And then I have read good things about getting your dog neutered at a early age before they reach puberty as it wont effect their growth. and makes a happier dog, less drive as far as running off, escaping and aggressiveness etc. We had our female spayed at 6 months and don't if it effected her as far as aggressiveness. and has not calmed her down , but is kind of scared of others dogs. people say why would you want to spayed and neuter a papered dog , well because we are not looking in breeding. any suggestions on getting our male neutered?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There are many discussions on this. THis one was made into a "sticky" thread and links to other treads and discusses how to search on the forum. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hen-spay-neuter-6-months-18-months-never.html


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

It does affect their growth.
Please read the threads.


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

Well I thought it would , I have read goods things about neutering , Because it helps with aggressiveness , My male is going to be quite larger then my female , and they play pretty ruff now, and don't want him to end up hurting her later on down the road, as my wife said if he did , we would have to end up getting rid of him, and I don't want that , then I have read others that say don't get them neutered like this site Spaying and Neutering | Angry Vet . I just don't want to do something i am going to regret later , cause once done is done.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly I think it is the dog and the genetics. The two most confident and socially appropriate males I have owned are intact ( I am counting Grim who was neutered at 8.5 years due to enlarged prostate as intact because he had his testicles for the bulk of his adult life)--Beau will not be neutered. 

Each person has to weight the pros and cons for themselves. I do not think there is one answer that will suit everyone.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Neutering will not help with behavioral problems like aggression. 

Training will.


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

Thank you all you just changed my mind on keeping him intact , I am just going to have to secure just one side of my fence , so he cant get out in anyway, We just dont want him running off to find a mate , or getting hit by a car My choice has been made up thank you


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Movin64 said:


> Thank you all you just changed my mind on keeping him intact , I am just going to have to secure just one side of my fence , so he cant get out in anyway, We just dont want him running off to find a mate , or getting hit by a car My choice has been made up thank you


PLEASE do not make up your mind that quickly, based only on these few responses! Much too rash! There is so much information out there and you should research as much as you can -- literally take *days* to read thru things here and google search this subject.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would agree. I think not going in tomorrow is a smart idea as you can't take it back but you really need to know and weigh the pros and cons to be comfortable with your decision...


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

From what I read so far, Is neutering them at a early age, slows down their growth plates, and if you decide to , Do it after the ages of 12 months or more not at puppy stages of 6 months , So I will keep studying , But as right now I am going to wait


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## Kelly&Kip (Aug 5, 2012)

My breeder, who has many, many years of experience with German Shepherds, counsels against neutering or spaying for 14 months. In fact, she guarantees her pups for life against hip dyplasia but neutering or spaying prior to 14 months of age voids that warranty. Its in my contract with her.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I do not believe that aggressiveness is tied to being neutered or not. Too many other variables, mainly genetics. I don't plan on neutering Grim, nor do I plan on breeding him. It does effect growth, though, if you neuter as a pup. Definitely take your time on deciding. Once it's done, it's done. If you have issues with aggressiveness, that means you need to train... two dogs playing together doesn't mean aggressiveness. Shepherds play rough!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Neutering will not help with behavioral problems like aggression.


I believe it does help. To say it "will not" is an opinion, not a fact.
However, once those behaviors are "set", it may be harder to get rid of them, training or not.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with waiting. Take more time and make an informed decision. If you do it tomorrow you can't go back.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I believe it does help. To say it "will not" is an opinion, not a fact.
> However, once those behaviors are "set", it may be harder to get rid of them, training or not.


Alright, in general, any trainer you ask will tell you that neutering your dog isn't going to fix it's aggression issues or otherwise. Could their be miracles or coincidences? Sure, why not.

Please quit following me around just to argue with me. It's gotten old and I have no care for it.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I believe it does help. *To say it "will not" is an opinion, not a fact*.
> However, once those behaviors are "set", it may be harder to get rid of them, training or not.


Agreed.

Absolutely no one on this planet can say anything is completely definite in terms of what will or will not happen -- especially Internet strangers who don't know you, don't the know the dog, other dogs in the home, the intact female dog that lives next door, so many variables, etc.

Can it help? Sure. Perhaps. Maybe. Is it a guarantee? No. Are there *any* guarantees? No.

Hormones are hormones. I believe they can influence the intensity of behaviors. Amplify them. That's not rocket science, just simple biology.

People often tout training, training, training as the complete fix and I just do not completely buy that. When you can train me out of PMS, I'll be more willing to entertain that idea.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Hormones are hormones. I believe they can influence the intensity of behaviors. Amplify them. That's not rocket science, just simple biology.


Exactly. Testosterone! 
That is the reason we alter all male farm critters except select animals kept for "stud" and even then they are usually locked away where there's no access except for breeding times.



> Please quit following me around just to argue with me.


Please. Don't flatter yourself. I'm reading along and see an obvious opinion stated as a fact, I'm going to say something, whether it's Jane Doe, Joe Blow, or you.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Of course you cannot train away genetics but you have to look at the big picture of genetics. Hormones and sex drive are just a small part of what makes a dog behave the way he does. That is why a German shepherd behaves differently than a Shih Tzu. It's not just about intact vs. altered, obviously. If a dog has high sexual aggression then by all means get him neutered but I don't think most dogs do. Most aggression comes from other sources and can be avoided if people buy into good genetics from the beginning. Altering a dog to avoid problems that don't exist (in the OP's case) is no different than insisting you can always train them away, IMO.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> If a dog has high sexual aggression


What do you classify as "sexual aggression"? 

Do you mean aggression related to sexual reproduction?



> Altering a dog to avoid problems is no different than insisting you can always train them away, IMO


I think people neuter or spay for a whole host of reasons, illness prevention being one of the main ones we (personally) think of when we s/n.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I had an aggressive neutered male and an aggressive spayed female and an unaltered non-aggressive male. The aggressive dogs were aggressive before and after being altered. We see aggression in dogs that have been spayed and neutered as young pups all the time. As often as those that haven't been spayed/neutered. I think hormones play an insignificant factor in aggression. There are men who are given drugs that are to cause 'chemical castration' who are still capable of violence and aggressive behavior... only the sexual component seems to be affected. Neutering young can have an effect on the dog's growth and development of those 'secondary sex characteristics' that some of us want to develop in our male dogs. I haven't yet met a trainer or behavioralist who felt that altering a dog would have an effect on an aggressive dog. Genetics are first, then you've got environment and training. I'd think that if having a dog altered played such a vital role in aggression, you'd see a difference in the behavior of a dog after altering it and rarely see aggression of any type in a dog that was altered at a young age. 

The number one reason to alter a dog is to prevent breeding. It's a sound reason, especially if the owner can't contain the dog securely. With the numbers of unwanted dogs and pups out there, I'm all for altering animals in general. However, responsible owners shouldn't be made to believe that their dog will become aggressive if they don't alter the animal. Nor should they have any fear tactics used on them. I had both male and female unaltered in my home and never had my bitch get pregnant. It can be done. In the end, my bitch was spayed because it was obvious she wasn't breed worthy and I didn't want to continue to rotate dogs when she was in heat... and my male was neutered because I ended up being too busy to get him titled...so therefore also not breed worthy. However, I would never alter a GSD before maturity because I want all of the growth and development that those hormones can bring.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> I think people neuter or spay for a whole host of reasons, illness prevention being one of the main ones we (personally) think of when we s/n.


Right but since this thread is about behavior and aggression I'm assuming that is what we are talking about? I'm tying to help the OP make an informed decision based on his/her concerns and not just parrot what *I* think about it in general. When it comes to aggression, I believe this is genetic and will not change based on altered vs. intact. If one does not want any aggression, then do the research up front with regard to the breeding, or look for an adult rescue dog who has been in foster care so the behavior has already been observed. I suggest the OP not alter the dog at 6 months if s/he already has reservations about it, and contact the breeder to learn more about the temperament of the lines.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> . I'd think that if having a dog altered played such a vital role in aggression, you'd see a difference in the behavior of a dog after altering it and rarely see aggression of any type in a dog that was altered at a young age.


In rescue we deal with high numbers of dogs and we do find this to be the case.
That is, males left intact beyond 6-8 mos. will tend to want to pick fights more, etc., but then when neutered, the behavior will taper off. 
You cannot discount the potential role testosterone plays, especially in same-sex aggression.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> In rescue we deal with high numbers of dogs and we do find this to be the case.
> *That is, males left intact beyond 6-8 mos. will tend to want to pick fights more, etc., but then when neutered, the behavior will taper off. *
> You cannot discount the potential role testosterone plays, especially in same-sex aggression.


But these are also intact dogs that have found themselves in need of rescue. Many times, without any training or knowledge of their history. So saying that behavioral problems such as aggression are because the dog has testicles isn't a fact either. The lack of socialization and training plays just as strong of a potential role as normal body hormones do. 

Working as a vet tech for some years now, I have found that people who bring their dogs for neutering in hopes that it will 'fix' an aggression problem mostly leave disappointed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Of course it takes 6-8 weeks to see a big difference. 
And it depends on the type of aggression, and as others said, genetics play a role.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Just one interesting article I read as I was debating this same decision did catch my eye with this:

_"A variety of factors may affect a dog’s tendency toward aggression; these include heredity, early experience, socialization and training, sex and reproductive status (Lockwood, 1999). For example,* intact males constitute 80 percent of all dogs presented to veterinary behaviorists for what formerly has been described as dominance aggression, are involved in 70 to 76 percent of reported dog bite incidents, and are 2.6 times more likely to bite than neutered dogs, *while unspayed females “attract free-roaming males, which increases bite risk to people through increased exposure to unfamiliar dogs,” and “contribute to the population of unwanted” and potentially aggressive dogs (Gershman et al., 1993; Sacks et al., 2000; AVMA, 2001). Chaining and tethering also appear to be risk factors for biting (Gershman et al., 1993), and programs that target tethering have proven effective in reducing bite rates (Sacks et al., 2000; AVMA, 2001). Other factors implicated in dog aggression are selective breeding and raising of dogs for elevated aggression, whether for protection, use in dog fighting competitions, social status or financial gain (Bradley, 2006); abuse and neglect (Delise, 2007); and inadequate obedience training and supervision (Shuler et al., 2008)."_

(Source: ASPCA | Position Statement on Breed-Specific Legislation)

Granted, this is just one article and there are plenty more. There are plenty to dispute this as well. Just one more reason for the OP to do very thorough homework, AS WELL AS consider his own life. Dog parks, doggy daycare, etc -- may or may not be as wise with an intact dog later.

Having owned one neutered male and one intact male of the exact same age and of the same litter, I can say the intact male was the far more aggressive of the two. Of course there's far more to this to go into here, but I do find that interesting.

As far as whether it changes their disposition... I can't tell you that yet. I'll let you know in the coming months.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think it's a personal choice one should research as well. 

For me, I don't want to deal with an intact female, however, my last girl was spayed after a year old just 'cause'..

My males, well I've had intact males up to 2-2.5 years old, they weren't aggressive dogs to begin with, I really had no problems doing it later vs sooner. They weren't racing around looking for a girlfriend, but if we did come across females, one would drool, teeth chatter, and lose his brains

I DID find after neutering one of them at 2.5 his 'brains' kinda went back to his head He wasn't a problem prior, he was just a spacey doofy male 

I'm all for rescues neutering/spaying 'whenever' they deem it appropriate. 

With that, I just never really had to deal with aggression, behavior issues in my males so could never really say whether neutering would 'fix'/tone down or not..Figure if you don't have a problem to begin with, neutering isn't going to 'invent' one


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's the thing...if you plan on leaving your dog unattended in the backyard and not contained, I'd lean towards neutering. A 6 foot fence will not stop a male dog from going after a female in heat. A full grown shepherd can jump/climb it and once they figure out how there is no stopping them.

I believe that neutering a dog before they hit puberty will decrease aggression. They will stay more "puppy" for longer and therefore decrease your chances of aggression issues. If you can make a list of all the reasons why you want to keep your dog intact, and it seems better than all the reasons to neuter it than its better to keep it intact. But if you really can't do that, then what's the point?

I have an intact male...I can tell you that he doesn't react to other males, but if there is a female around he likes he does get quite possessive. Even of spayed ones. What does happen is that other males react to him...and when that happens he has a tendency to defend himself. A GSD defending himself sounds great on this forum...but it looks horrible at a dog park or anywhere else you might have a confrontation. We tend to go to the dog park less and less now, and have to find places where he can run off leash that don't have many other dogs or dangers (which isn't all that hard).

But it kind of comes down to your lifestyle and what YOU want out of your dog. You mentioned police dogs aren't neutered...well do you plan on training your dog and working him like a police dog? I do believe intact males in general have more drive, more energy, and want to do work, are you going to provide him with the outlets to do that? Do you want your dog to be sociable with other dogs without having to worry about fights starting? Or are you just going to socialize with the female and your own pack (which is absolutely perfect for a dog anyways)?

Come up with a list of what you want to do, what kind of dog you hope to have, and although its possible to do that with an intact or a neutered dog...there are better chances of getting a certain temperament depending on your decision. I'm a first time dog owner, I have an intact male, and I'll tell you that it is more work to deal with him. But I live in an apartment, he's never outside without me or on a leash, and I can easily tell when there is a female in heat around (he goes bonkers).

As to the statistics...the forum can deny this all they want but its true...intact males get into more trouble with other males. Although there are plenty of neutered dogs that do this as well...the majority are intact. And we have all seen intact males that aren't aggressive at all. But statistically (like chelle has pointed out) the intact ones get into more trouble.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I DID find after neutering one of them at 2.5 his 'brains' kinda went back to his head He wasn't a problem prior, he was just a spacey doofy male


This is exactly our experience.
Our Ruger was not being a butt, either, but we grew tired of looking at his danglies, so he went in about a month ago. He's fine, didn't change him but he's not aggressive, he's a doofus like your dog sounds Jakoda.

I do see many "teen boys" who lose their brains so to speak, and regain them after neutering.
I do believe neutered males as a whole are easier and more pleasant to live with, for the _average pet owner._
I realize a lot of you on this board are "above average" but that's not to say the rest of the nation is


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> .... Working as a vet tech for some years now, I have found that people who bring their dogs for neutering in hopes that it will 'fix' an aggression problem mostly leave disappointed.


I tend to wonder about an owner who thinks there is such a magic pill? To believe that, they surely haven't done much homework on the issue. If they don't do their homework, it leads me to think they aren't on top of the training, either.

I totally agree just chopping of pieces of their body doesn't magically fix anything. I do wonder how much of the "edge" it takes off for your basic owner, who just wants an all around easier dog. 



martemchik said:


> ..... I have an intact male...I can tell you that he doesn't react to other males, but if there is a female around he likes he does get quite possessive. Even of spayed ones. *What does happen is that other males react to him*...and when that happens he has a tendency to defend himself. *A GSD defending himself sounds great on this forum...but it looks horrible at a dog park or anywhere else you might have a confrontation*. *We tend to go to the dog park less and less now,* and have to find places where he can run off leash that don't have many other dogs or dangers (which isn't all that hard).
> 
> But it kind of comes down to your lifestyle and what YOU want out of your dog.....


I've lived the bolded above, also. We don't go to the dog park anymore. He got too much attention and the few intact older males there went after him.

Good post.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> They will stay more "puppy" for longer and therefore decrease your chances of aggression issues.


Can you elaborate? I've found that with my intact males, I have way more trouble with them as puppies than as adults. They seem to go through a stage around 6-10 months where they are testing themselves with other dogs, very reactive and pushy. I would *not* want to do anything to put a dog in this stage any longer! By 10-12 months this seems to fade with maturity (I don't really do much about it other than let the dog grow up and keep his confidence up).

Just reading through this thread I'm getting the impression that people are really impatient with GSDs. I tend to think of male GSDs as puppies until 2-2.5 years and not really adults until 3-4+. To me that's just the way they are and if I can't deal with it I should look for a different type of dog and not do elective surgeries to speed up the process. I actually like all the stages and watching the dog (slowly) grow up!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

chelle said:


> I tend to wonder about an owner who thinks there is such a magic pill? To believe that, they surely haven't done much homework on the issue. If they don't do their homework, it leads me to think they aren't on top of the training, either.
> 
> I totally agree just chopping of pieces of their body doesn't magically fix anything. I do wonder how much of the "edge" it takes off for your basic owner, who just wants an all around easier dog.
> 
> ...


I definitely don't think people do enough research whether its for or against neutering. I'm definitely not against it, but I am absolutely against the notion that it will cure a behavioral problem. I've actually gotten multiple complaints from people after neutering their pet that the dog isn't any better...even though we explain from the beginning that it's isn't magically going to change their problem. 

Although people that stupid really aren't responsible enough to own an intact animal anyways..


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Can you elaborate? I've found that with my intact males, I have way more trouble with them as puppies than as adults. They seem to go through a stage around 6-10 months where they are testing themselves with other dogs, very reactive and pushy. I would *not* want to do anything to put a dog in this stage any longer! By 10-12 months this seems to fade with maturity (I don't really do much about it other than let the dog grow up and keep his confidence up).
> 
> *Just reading through this thread I'm getting the impression that people are really impatient with GSDs. I tend to think of male GSDs as puppies until 2-2.5 years and not really adults until 3-4+.* To me that's just the way they are and if I can't deal with it I should look for a different type of dog and not do elective surgeries to speed up the process. I actually like all the stages and watching the dog (slowly) grow up!


Totally agree with this. Aiden is a very different dog than he was even just a year ago.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Can you elaborate? I've found that with my intact males, I have way more trouble with them as puppies than as adults. They seem to go through a stage around 6-10 months where they are testing themselves with other dogs, very reactive and pushy. I would *not* want to do anything to put a dog in this stage any longer! By 10-12 months this seems to fade with maturity (I don't really do much about it other than let the dog grow up and keep his confidence up).


I think they stay younger that that...they don't test themselves like you have said. I know exactly what you're talking about...my dog did that from 6-10 and I want to say a little bit longer as well. To this day he is a little dominant and will test the "pack order" at a dog park. Now...this is also a GSD thing, they are a dominant breed, they like to keep order, so when he runs into another dog that decides it's his job to keep the order there could be issues.

I don't think we'll ever get a true answer of it being breed/personality/hormones, but from what I've seen from other dogs, intact males have a bigger chance of running into issues. And again, we are all much more advanced owners (like msvette said) and it is my belief that someone that just wants a happy-go-lucky dog that they don't have to worry about getting into dominance dances, you raise your CHANCES of getting that by neutering early. Not a guarantee, but higher chance.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I don't really think of male GSDs as a real "happy go lucky" dog. I wouldn't expect that a male GSD would be a good candidate for a dog park and that sort of thing. Maybe the testicles aren't the problem but a mismatch as far as breed and the owner's expectation?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> but I am absolutely against the notion that it will cure a behavioral problem.


I'm confused, though, who here has said it_ will_??
It may indeed help a "behavioral" problem, depending on the problem, but there's a lot of "ifs".
My main issue was someone stating plainly "it won't". Because you can't say for sure if it will or won't, too much depends on how and what the problem is.

Also the way I see neutering - and behavioral issues - neutering at the very least _will _remove testosterone from the picture to get a more clear view of the dog and his issues, and make sure they aren't testosterone related.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'm confused, though, who here has said it_ will_??
> It may indeed help a "behavioral" problem, depending on the problem, but there's a lot of "ifs".
> My main issue was someone stating plainly "it won't". Because you can't say for sure if it will or won't, too much depends on how and what the problem is.
> 
> Also the way I see neutering - and behavioral issues - neutering at the very least _will _remove testosterone from the picture to get a more clear view of the dog and his issues, and make sure they aren't testosterone related.


As I said in my post, many owners come into my practice with the idea that neutering _will _fix their problems. Where they got that idea, I couldn't tell you. I certainly didn't give it to them..


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I still cannot help but wonder how much of some behavioural issues are driven extra hard by testosterone? Like putting a person in a Ferrari and another in a Chevette.  Whose gonna get in more trouble? Ok, stupid, but .... I don't think you can discount testosterone as a strong force.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I don't think you can discount testosterone as a strong force.


With this I agree.
You can't say it's responsible for all these live-driving things like proper growth, maturity, etc., and yet discount it's effect on behavior.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never had my dogs neutered an i've never had any 
problems with them. if i were going to neuter my dogs
i would do it when they're 2 yrs old or older. a happy dog
is a trained and socialized dog. escaping and aggressiveness,
training and socializing should be the cure. i don't look towards
certain collars, halters and operations for a fix. i think the fix
to most problems is in the training and socializing.



Movin64 said:


> We have a 6 months old Male, and are planing on getting him neutered tomorrow, Been reading different suggestions , Some say not to neuter your male at a early age, as it effects their drive as far as training etc. most police dogs from what i read are not neutered.
> 
> >>>> And then I have read good things about getting your dog neutered at a early age before they reach puberty as it wont effect their growth. and makes a happier dog, less drive as far as running off, escaping and aggressiveness etc. <<<<
> 
> We had our female spayed at 6 months and don't if it effected her as far as aggressiveness. and has not calmed her down , but is kind of scared of others dogs. people say why would you want to spayed and neuter a papered dog , well because we are not looking in breeding. any suggestions on getting our male neutered?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what if it's a female dog and females driving the cars?



chelle said:


> I still cannot help but wonder how much of some behavioural issues are driven extra hard by testosterone? Like putting a person in a Ferrari and another in a Chevette.  Whose gonna get in more trouble? Ok, stupid, but .... I don't think you can discount testosterone as a strong force.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i've never had my dogs neutered an i've never had any
> problems with them. if i were going to neuter my dogs
> i would do it when they're 2 yrs old or older. a happy dog
> is a trained and socialized dog. escaping and *aggressiveness*,
> ...


I wish you could've come here and trained out the aggressive issues of my one male towards the other. Then, I'd still have him here. Where were you??



doggiedad said:


> what if it's a female dog and females driving the cars?


Estrogen is sneakier and nastier.... testosterone is right there in your face  Estrogen would come from the back when you least expect it and run the Ferrari into the ditch. :laugh:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chelle said:


> I still cannot help but wonder how much of some behavioural issues are driven extra hard by testosterone? Like putting a person in a Ferrari and another in a Chevette.  Whose gonna get in more trouble? Ok, stupid, but .... I don't think you can discount testosterone as a strong force.


I don't think you are wrong I just don't see it as a bad thing? These are male GSDs, not stuffed teddy bears. Even on this GSD board it amazes me how people talk about things that are *desirable* traits in the breed in such negative terms. Maybe I'm in the minority but I like my male GSDs to be dominant, powerful, courageous, focused, driven, discerning, protective dogs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Maybe I'm in the minority but I like my male GSDs to be dominant, powerful, courageous, focused, driven, discerning, protective dogs.


Neutering doesn't make them _not_ those things. Why are you implying it does?
If their <ahem> hormones make them all those things, then by reason, lack of those hormones would make them little wimpy scared dogs, and that is not the case, _at all._


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Personally, I wouldn't neuter or spay unless there was a medical necessity (retained testicles, anal tumor, pyo, etc) to do so. Hormones are important. I contain my intact animals well and prevent the possibility for accidents. If you can contain and manage your intact animal, then this is a route to consider. If you have any doubts about your management, neuter to prevent accidents.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I don't think you are wrong I just don't see it as a bad thing? These are male GSDs, not stuffed teddy bears. Even on this GSD board it amazes me how people talk about things that are *desirable* traits in the breed in such negative terms. Maybe I'm in the minority but I like my male GSDs to be dominant, powerful, courageous, focused, driven, discerning, protective dogs.


I don't see it as a bad thing by any means, but look how many people come here daily, posting serious issues? I think too many people think GSD = protection = cop dog = my family will be safe and get a pup. Then the GSD acts like... a GSD.

I think sometimes this forum doesn't consider that many that come here are not the dog fanatics that much of this board is. They actually have lives other than dogs, lol. They want a dog to walk and play with and perhaps take to the dog park. I really think a person's lifestyle *must* be taken strongly into account when it comes to speuter.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think those people should consider another breed.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

chelle said:


> I think sometimes this forum doesn't consider that many that come here are not the dog fanatics that much of this board is. They actually have lives other than dogs, lol. They want a dog to walk and play with and perhaps take to the dog park. I really think a person's lifestyle *must* be taken strongly into account when it comes to speuter.


A person's lifestyle must be taken into account when choosing the BREED, also.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

djetzel said:


> a person's lifestyle must be taken into account when choosing the breed, also.


gmta :d


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I think those people should consider another breed.


:thumbup:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> gmta :d


I'm not sure what that means... But I think we're on the same page. 

Speaking of neutering... Is it unhealthy to leave a crypt orchid intact? I've never had to deal with it before, but I'm pretty sure my puppy's other nut isn't dropping.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Is it unhealthy to leave a crypt orchid intact?


Yes.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> I think those people should consider another breed.





DJEtzel said:


> A person's lifestyle must be taken into account when choosing the BREED, also.


Yes, they should and they should and they don't. You see it every day here, yes?


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## Zenithtb (Oct 7, 2012)

Bladder and prostate cancer: neutering male dogs increases risk

1. Castration of dogs increases total malignant prostate cancer by over 3 times for some prostate cancers (prostate adenocarcinoma). So the answer is yes, castration does increase prostate cancer in dogs (which goes against what I was taught).

2. Castration of dogs increases the most common type of bladder cancer (transitional cell carcinoma) by eight times. This is huge!! Major, major, industry shaking information, or it should be.

That is all

Addendum - we've 'done' all females (population control) but left males alone - health reasons


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chelle said:


> I don't see it as a bad thing by any means, but look how many people come here daily, posting serious issues? I think too many people think GSD = protection = cop dog = my family will be safe and get a pup. Then the GSD acts like... a GSD.
> 
> I think sometimes this forum doesn't consider that many that come here are not the dog fanatics that much of this board is. They actually have lives other than dogs, lol. They want a dog to walk and play with and perhaps take to the dog park. I really think a person's lifestyle *must* be taken strongly into account when it comes to speuter.



I guess I'm not so quick to let people off. Am I or people like me in some special category? I've only owned GSDs for 5 years and some people come on here saying they've owned them their lifetime. It is not rocket science. If people cannot control a normal dog without speutering it then yes, I strongly believe they need to re-think their decision about owning the breed or a dog period. I'm not going to break it down into categories of ownership. In my mind it's about what is healthy and fair for the DOG and not just the decision of speutering. If the breed is not a lifestyle fit then there are likely going to be issues beyond whatever problems leaving a male dog intact supposedly causes.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Yes.


Have any links by chance? I don't have a computer and google doesn't work right on my phone. :/ 

Guess I'll have to work something out with the breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Speaking of neutering... Is it unhealthy to leave a crypt orchid intact? I've never had to deal with it before, but I'm pretty sure my puppy's other nut isn't dropping.


Yes but I don't think there's a huge rush. My old training director has a dog like this and is planning to neuter but his dog is almost two. You can still let the dog mature and then do it.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Have any links by chance? I don't have a computer and google doesn't work right on my phone. :/
> 
> Guess I'll have to work something out with the breeder.


It's generally accepted info. Retained testes have the risk of becoming cancerous so they should be removed if they don't descend. What does your contract say? Are retained testes covered? If so, you should be able to get a replacement, especially if you bought the dog as a breed/work/show prospect. 

Cryptorchidism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Why should my cryptorchid pet be neutered?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I guess I'm not so quick to let people off. *Am I or people like me in some special category?* I've only owned GSDs for 5 years and some people come on here saying they've owned them their lifetime. It is not rocket science. If people cannot control a normal dog without speutering it then yes, I strongly believe they need to re-think their decision about owning the breed or a dog period. I'm not going to break it down into categories of ownership. In my mind it's about what is healthy and fair for the DOG and not just the decision of speutering. *If the breed is not a lifestyle fit then there are likely going to be issues beyond whatever problems leaving a male dog intact supposedly causes*.


Bolded #1: Answer: YES.

Bolded #2: Answer: Most definitely.

TONS of people get dogs that are not a proper fit; that's not news to anyone! That's why the shelters are full and why I see the smoke coming from the crematorium at the shelter across the street from work every few days. 

So, no, people can't handle dogs and add the issues that may present with intact dogs... and no, they can't/don't/won't. I mean, heck, that's how *I* ended up with two mixed breed dogs and one I had to rehome and I'll be honest, this is rather emotional for me.

Why hasn't anyone said a thing about OP's fence being down or in disrepair? This dog is of age to sire, after all -- why hasn't that been brought up? Why is everyone so quick to say KEEP HIM INTACT without asking about the OP's life, what he wants to do, etc??? Seriously!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

OP said he is fixing his fence.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Yes but I don't think there's a huge rush. My old training director has a dog like this and is planning to neuter but his dog is almost two. You can still let the dog mature and then do it.


THAT'S what I was worried about. Thanks!



qbchottu said:


> It's generally accepted info. Retained testes have the risk of becoming cancerous so they should be removed if they don't descend. What does your contract say? Are retained testes covered? If so, you should be able to get a replacement, especially if you bought the dog as a breed/work/show prospect.
> 
> Cryptorchidism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Why should my cryptorchid pet be neutered?


Well ALL testes have the risk of becoming cancerous. 

Thanks though. I thought the contract said no neutering before 14 months, but I will have to check. I have a terrible memory. Don't think it'll be covered, but won't effect anything he was bought for thankfully.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Well ALL testes have the risk of becoming cancerous.


Techinically correct, but retained testes much more so. 

Read the research:
Testicular Tumors
"8.8-times risk of developing a Sertoli cell tumor in the cryptorchid testicle compared to descended testicle in dogs with unilateral cryptorchidism" 
That is: same dog, one retained one not, retained has a much higher risk of cancer.
"in humans, early surgical correction of cryptorchidism (i.e., orchipexy) decreases risk of testicular neoplasia"
This is much better documented in humans:
Testicular Cancer Risk Among Young Men: Role of Cryptorchidism and Inguinal Hernia
"The risk increased with increasing age at correction; the risk was highest for those men whose cryptorchid testis was never corrected. Among unilateral cryptorchids, no increased risk of testicular cancer was observed for the normally descended testis."
Management of Cryptorchism and Risk of Testicular Cancer
"Cryptorchism has been strongly and consistently related to risk of testicular cancer, with more than a dozen studies reporting relative risks ranging from 2.1 to 17.6"

More on dogs:
Dog Cryptorchidism (Retained Testicles) | Treatment Options
"Dogs with retained testicles have a much greater risk of developing testicular cancer than do dogs whose testicles both descend normally. In fact, neoplastic tumors occur in roughly 50 percent of undescended testicles – a ten-fold increase over the risk of cancer in non-retained testes."
Retained Testicle Or Cryptorchidism In Your Dog Or Cat

If I had a dog with cryptorchidism, I would neuter at 2 years if they still haven't descended by that age. Of course, it's your decision as to what you wish to do with your dog. Good luck.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chelle said:


> Why hasn't anyone said a thing about OP's fence being down or in disrepair? This dog is of age to sire, after all -- why hasn't that been brought up? Why is everyone so quick to say KEEP HIM INTACT without asking about the OP's life, what he wants to do, etc??? Seriously!


Good fences might make good neighbors but not necessarily dog owners. As a newbie dog/GSD owner I owned an intact dog with NO fence. Then I put up a cheap (mesh) fence to keep other animals OUT. There are other means of containment. Most fences can be bent, jumped, or dug under anyway. On the flip side I've seen plenty of people get a dog and toss it in their fenced backyard never to pay any real attention to it. Now if a bitch in standing heat were to come into my unfenced yard and not leave, then yeah there might be a problem at that point but I fail to see how that is my fault or proves anything wrong/undesirable about my dog and the status of his genitals. Remember even a neutered male can mount a female.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Why do folks on here internalize these discussions? We're not talking about uber-responsible liesje, we're talking about quite possibly irresponsible Joe Blow, the guy down the road. 
And I believe recommending leaving dogs intact until adulthood is irresponsible until you are certain the animals are not at risk for being accidentally bred.

These discussions always wind up the same...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Good fences might make good neighbors but not necessarily dog owners. As a newbie dog/GSD owner I owned an intact dog with NO fence. Then I put up a cheap (mesh) fence to keep other animals OUT. There are other means of containment. Most fences can be bent, jumped, or dug under anyway. On the flip side I've seen plenty of people get a dog and toss it in their fenced backyard never to pay any real attention to it. Now if a bitch in standing heat were to come into my unfenced yard and not leave, then yeah there might be a problem at that point but I fail to see how that is my fault or proves anything wrong/undesirable about my dog and the status of his genitals. Remember even a neutered male can mount a female.


Ok. I'll just post this and think it best to leave the thread because personal issues are clouding things for me.

I'm very well versed and aware of all fencing issues. Never had a fence until last summer. Helped to raise my son's WGSD without a fenced yard and Bailey never had one until he was? around ten months. We didn't need tieouts with either of them.... so anyway, yeah, I get it.

Recently I've been talking a lot about rehoming Tucker, the guy who came in last February. Got a TON of flack about how the potential adopter had a gap in their fence. That I shouldn't let him go there until they repaired it. That I should require a contract. That I should do this, do that, demand/require this and that... I know it was in concern for his best interests, but this poster is "ok" with a busted fence and a nearly sexually mature male... ?

My other male, Bailey, is also a mixed breed and I was chastised up and down that I must contain him properly. I get that. Solid advice. Do not contribute to the overpopulation, especially of mixed breeds. I have ensured my dog has never been free to roam or impregnate. When he hit a point of failing recall, he was tethered and not long after, the fence went up.

Yet, this poster apparently gets a pass on his broken fencing and advice to keep his male intact. He listens to a few people saying positive things about keeping him intact, and says yep, I'm going to wait, you've convinced me.

OP hasn't been back. Not sure what to make of that.

What I think some people don't "get," is that just because *your* (generic) experience with an intact male has been peachy-keen, it isn't that way for everyone. I am not saying the OP should neuter at six months, but you...people... don't... know.... squat... about... this... person and there you are, telling him to keep his dog intact.

Are you folks going to be there when his dog escapes the busted fence and produces a litter? You don't know enough about the isituation -- NOR DID ANY OF YOU ASK ABOUT HIS SITUATION -- to know some very important facts. What are his training goals? Does he have other animals? Does he go to dog parks, or want to go to them? Does he have neighbor dogs? Does he want to get other dogs, especially males? 

All of these things were asked of me and my mixed dog. Yeah, I was put thru a ringer over these things. I'm glad for that, though -- it made me THINK, made me do my homework.... made me *truly respect the responsibility of owning an intact male* and it IS indeed a responsiblity *over and above basic dog ownership*. Yet, this new poster is simply advised to leave the dog intact. Personally, I find that irresponsible without knowing any more than what little information was provided by OP here.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, I admit to being rushed and not reading most of this thread, except for the last two pages. 

My dog is almost 16 months. He has double retained testicles. He is getting neutered on Wednesday. His being intact was never an issue, behavior-wise. Lately, he is showing a few more signs of hormonally induced behavior, which brought it to my attention again. Nothing that couldn't be handled with just a little extra training, which will happen anyway, especially once I stop working. He's actually probably better behaved than 80% of neutered dogs. However, upon reflection of the situation, it's not super financially optimal for me right now, but it's actually better than when I'd originally planned in January, because I'm still working and it will be easier to keep the area dry than when there's snow on the ground too. 

The OP needs to discuss with his vet, listen to his gut, and make the best decision for _he and his dog. _


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Even more insane to insinuate that people who neuter shouldn't own the breed...very sad if you ask me. 
Even MORE insane to insinuate that people who do alter are less responsible than people who keep intact animals, I'm sure that comment's gonna rear up any moment now 

chelle, I'll join you on your way out of this thread


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Movin64 said:


> We have a 6 months old Male, and are planing on getting him neutered tomorrow, Been reading different suggestions , Some say not to neuter your male at a early age, as it effects their drive as far as training etc. most police dogs from what i read are not neutered. And then I have read good things about getting your dog neutered at a early age before they reach puberty as it wont effect their growth. and makes a happier dog, less drive as far as running off, escaping and aggressiveness etc. We had our female spayed at 6 months and don't if it effected her as far as aggressiveness. and has not calmed her down , but is kind of scared of others dogs. people say why would you want to spayed and neuter a papered dog , well because we are not looking in breeding. any suggestions on getting our male neutered?


Haven't read this thread but thought I would just say that I have just had my 21 month old castrated....he is 10 days post op. 
This was a big thing for me.....to wait that is.....I have always had males done at 6 months but decided after reading on here to wait.
I am glad I did....he has grown well, has a very nice masculine head etc (not saying he wouldn't have that if I hadn't have waited). 
I thought i would be driven crazy by an intact male but was pleasantly surprised...he was fine. I may have considered not having him done at all BUT we have people coming and going here on our farm all the time with working dogs (as in sheep dogs) and NONE of them are speyed......I just didn't want to risk him "doing the deed" with one of them as the owners of these dogs are not real responsible and would think itr was "cool" if my GSD got to one of their Kelpies......so he is done....good or bad.....but I am very happy that I gave him that extra time.

Hmmm......perhaps i should have read more of this thread going by the last couple posts......


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chelle said:


> Personally, I find that irresponsible without knowing any more than what little information was provided by OP here.


And I find it irresponsible to tell someone we don't know to put his puppy under the knife just as a precaution. As I said in my first few posts, the OP should take some time to make an informed decision, not a rushed or pressured decision. In the mean time, fix the fence (which it sounds like is happening). I'm not telling the OP to do one thing or another, it's not my dog and I also find it somewhat irresponsible to make the decision based on what the internetz say.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree. The OP has time to make an informed decision. I would say 6-8 months is one window of opportunity vs say over 14-18 months which is another. I think we can agree that the initial concern of male:female agression in the household is probably not so much. Just take a few weeks to really weight the pros and cons.

With him being 6 months now, I imagine that female dog may start to really put him in his place though. The puppy pass is expiring and that has nothing to do with testicles.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

I believe that anyone caring enough to go on this forum to ask about neutering is probably responsible enough to keep dog from randomly producing a litter. You guys need to take your neutering and fence bibles into the inner city and try to educate those folks!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Even more insane to insinuate that people who neuter shouldn't own the breed...very sad if you ask me.


Just in case this was directed at me, I would like to clarify that I was responding to this:



chelle said:


> I think sometimes this forum doesn't consider that many that come here are not the dog fanatics that much of this board is. They actually have lives other than dogs, lol. They want a dog to walk and play with and perhaps take to the dog park.


...and NOT to the neutering. 
A GSD needs a lot more training and exercise than your average dog, and if you let your GSD get unruly and think neutering will magically fix the problems caused by lack of training, you are going to be disappointed.

Shows me not to reply when I am on my phone and can't cut and paste to show exactly what my reply is directed toward!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't get what neutering has to do with the dog park unless it's a park you pay for that doesn't allow intact dogs? I've seen intact dogs at our dog park and my intact dogs play with other intact dogs....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I don't get what neutering has to do with the dog park unless it's a park you pay for that doesn't allow intact dogs? I've seen intact dogs at our dog park and my intact dogs play with other intact dogs....


A vet told me that fighting may start because neutered dogs will go for the unneutered males, because they smell different.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well if dogs are going to pick fights then they shouldn't be at the dog park. Seems common sense to me! (I know we are on the same page)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know I have owned dogs since 1965 and have had intact and neutered males and the only dog agressive males I HAVE owned were, in fact, nuetered. 

I am not sure it had to do with neutering, but I have also heard the claim made by others.

In any event, I think the basic dog and its training has the most to do with everything. My dogs don't "Play" with strange dogs. Just me. They are also probably the ONLY male dogs in the neighborhood who know they can't stop and mark all over the place. And we are out and about and I can assure you we encounter a lot of stray dogs on searches. We just work our way past them and ignore them / chase them away.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> You know I have owned dogs since 1965 and have had intact and neutered males and the only dog agressive males I HAVE owned were, in fact, nuetered.
> 
> I am not sure it had to do with neutering, but I have also heard the claim made by others..



Which helps verify what the vet told me. I was quite surprised, but it made sense. 
Everyone smells the same, then Mr. Intacto comes along and he is ...well, off! Let's gang up on the off guy!

As far as not going if you know he will pick a fight... sometimes there is no way of knowing until it happens the first time.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I don't get what neutering has to do with the dog park unless it's a park you pay for that doesn't allow intact dogs? I've seen intact dogs at our dog park and my intact dogs play with other intact dogs....


I'm also confused. I took Frag to numerous parks when he was intact and he behaved just fine, and the park where I work allows intact animals and none of the males get attacked or attack other dogs.

Oddly enough, Frag was the biggest baby and would run away from fights before he was neutered at 2.. following his recovery and lack of testosterone, he will not back down from a dominant male (intact or neutered) trying to challenge him. It's like he has to prove something now. 

I'd have rather just left him intact. BTW, the aggression that Frag used to have WASN'T effected AT ALL by the neuter. Now he's just more likely to lay out another dog messing with him too much if I'm not there to say no.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Can't say I've been to dog parks... but I did take my intact male every year to the dog 'gathering' (they had booths, food, stuff for the dogs, dogs up for adoption, etc.. don't know what to call it) and he was fine. He never started a fight (although he greeted an unfriendly golden that bit at him) and never 'finished one' either. He was always laid back like that. I think he was five when I neutered him. He never 'marked' either. Never had problem on walks, I took him all over including strange campgrounds, etc. I'm sure there was an intact female somewhere along the way... the ONLY female he ever reacted to was mine. After she was spayed, of course, he didn't. The only thing I feel is irresponsible is to mislead someone. Of course there are risks. I think those have been well spoken for here as well. There are some people who simply cannot be responsible enough to have an intact dog. These are all opinions and what we've experienced on this thread. Nothing more. I do know that my first GSD (who got aggressive towards males because he had to protect me at a young age) was neutered after his vet swore up and down his aggression would 'disappear' if I had him neutered. It wasn't that big of a deal anyway as I wasn't planning to breed and he was at least 14 months old then... but it was a lie. The only thing that changed is he wasn't able to reproduce. However, he'd already done his growing and was large, thick, had a beautiful big head and looked very masculine already. Still, I was expecting "that to be that" after the neuter, and was disappointed that I had the same exact attitude from him after the neuter. I started talking to trainers and behaviorists about it regularly after that. Never heard that story line again. 

OP- if you cannot keep 100% control over where your dog is all day every day to avoid an "oops" litter, then neuter. There are thousands of GSD's out there that don't meet the standard, don't have papers, are aggressive, are homeless, etc. It's YOUR responsibility to keep that from happening while you have an intact dog. If you choose to wait until the dog is 14 plus months to get that extra growth, PLEASE do not ever leave your dog outside alone, know it's possible for the dog to jump a fence to get to a female (although mine never jumped my 4 foot fence, but that may be unusual) and be RESPONSIBLE for your dog. It's not worth the extra growth if you end up sponsoring unwanted litters. OK? 

msvette2u- I know how you feel on this. I know how rescue people get VERY passionate about subjects such as this and why. It's not a bad thing. My 'sticking point' is people breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred (regardless of titles) because I've been the recipient of those pups with issues. I also have been involved in bird rescue as well... and that's another subject where I get upset and defensive. We all bring our personal baggage into conversations, and I *do* understand where you're coming from. I'm sure you've seen more than your share of irresponsible owners, and it just never stops. 

Chelle- if your boys stop fighting just because they were neutered, I will send them BOTH a treat! There was bound to be an aggressor and a non-aggressor in the litter, especially with the brothers living together. I REALLY hope things work out for your boys so you can keep them both. I haven't had litter mates, but have read it can be a nightmare. I know how much you want to keep both. I don't know who was bashing on you or making you feel bad, but I'm sorry that happened. I think those who suggested you check out a potential adopter with a fine tooth comb were only thinking of you and the dog.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> And I find it irresponsible to tell someone we don't know to *put his puppy under the knife* just as a precaution.....


Who said this? Certainly not me. 



jocoyn said:


> I agree. The OP has time to make an informed decision.


The only point I was truly ever trying to make.



Liesje said:


> I don't get what neutering has to do with the dog park unless it's a park you pay for that doesn't allow intact dogs? I've seen intact dogs at our dog park and *my intact dogs play with other intact dogs*....


I'm glad you've been so fortunate. I wasn't as fortunate.



DJEtzel said:


> I'm also *confused*. I took Frag to numerous parks when he was intact and he behaved just fine, and the park where I work allows intact animals and none of the males get attacked or attack other dogs...................I'd have rather just left him intact. BTW, the aggression that Frag used to have WASN'T effected AT ALL by the neuter. Now he's just more likely to lay out another dog messing with him too much if I'm not there to say no.


Not sure what is so confusing for you? Ditto on the I'm glad you're fortunate part. Now, there was an incident where intact Frag did attack, though.

~~~~~~

When people say "he didn't change," I often wonder... I don't doubt any owner who says such, but at the same time, you don't know what might've become if left intact, either. No one can know. We can't rewind that clock and raise the dog neutered and later raise it intact. 

~~~~



Jag said:


> Can't say I've been to dog parks... but I did take my intact male every year to the dog 'gathering' (they had booths, food, stuff for the dogs, dogs up for adoption, etc.. don't know what to call it) and he was fine. He never started a fight (although he greeted an unfriendly golden that bit at him) and never 'finished one' either. He was always laid back like that. I think he was five when I neutered him. *He never 'marked' either*. *Never had problem on walk*s, I took him all over including strange campgrounds, etc. I'm sure there was an intact female somewhere along the way... the ONLY female he ever reacted to was mine. After she was spayed, of course, he didn't. *The only thing I feel is irresponsible is to mislead someone.* Of course there are risks. I think those have been well spoken for here as well. There are some people who simply cannot be responsible enough to have an intact dog. These are all opinions and what we've experienced on this thread. Nothing more. I do know that my first GSD *(who got aggressive towards males because he had to protect me at a young age*) was neutered after his vet swore up and down his aggression would 'disappear' if I had him neutered. It wasn't that big of a deal anyway as I wasn't planning to breed and he was at least 14 months old then... but it was a lie. The only thing that changed is he wasn't able to reproduce. However, he'd already done his growing and was large, thick, had a beautiful big head and looked very masculine already. Still, I was expecting "that to be that" after the neuter, and was disappointed that I had the same exact attitude from him after the neuter. *I started talking to trainers and behaviorists about it regularly after that*. Never heard that story line again.
> 
> My boy, when intact, never marked in the house and personally I think that is something people confuse with cats. He didn't cause any issues on walks. He went camping plenty without issue.
> 
> ...


~~~~

I find it interesting here also that everyone makes it about *their* experiences and lives. Since *you* (generic) didn't have problems, then everyone should be able to have the same experiences. Granted, this is a forum and people share their experiences, but yours won't be theirs, won't be another's, etc. Your lives, training, etc are all different and if you don't inquire about those things when someone asks about the speutering question, I believe you are doing them a disservice by saying only that it works for you. 

I was led down this path at one point, but I didn't just settle with that alone -- I did dig in and do my own research. Not everyone will. 

One poster says their dogs aren't allowed to play with other dogs and another says they don't do dog parks, so they're not dealing with the interactions of neutered males vs intact males in unknown conditions. I don't blame them for avoiding that, but without knowing the OP's intentions with this dog; ie, whether he will attempt these things, you don't truly have the big picture. 

I also am going to *make it clear* that I am *not* pro *or* anti speuter. *I am pro-informed owner.* I chose to leave my male intact until recently (16 months) for his greatest health benefit. I had intended to make it to 18 months. I had no problems whatsoever with having an intact male, other than his increasing aggression towards his brother. Would that have been as bad had he been neutered earlier? I think not, but there's no way to know. And that is truly the bottom line -- none of us truly know.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

chelle, for what it's worth, I consider you fully informed and would have done *exactly* what you did in your situation. I've got two large adult males right now and one is neutered. In fact he was neutered around ten weeks of age. Nikon basically treats him like a spayed female.

I guess the difference is that I try to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, that by coming here and asking s/he is open to doing the researching and making an informed decision so I don't want to pressure him/her into doing something irreversible, especially at the dog's current age. You're right, none of us know the OP or the dog so unless I have reason to believe otherwise I will hope that the OP genuinely means right by their dog and is capable of containing the dog and managing interactions with other dogs and if s/he needs help with these things s/he will ask.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Chelle- as I've posted before, my first GSD protected me from my ex. He then became aggressive to ALL males that came anywhere near me. 
In a litter, there are all types of personalities. It's likely when you have more than one male in a home that one will be the aggressor and one will not be. Although, it's possible that neither male will be the non-aggressor, in which case you've really got a fight on your hands. I'm interested to know why you didn't have the aggressor neutered right away? Instead, the non-aggressor was neutered? Or am I misunderstanding? I'm sorry you had to re-home Tucker. I know your hope was to work it out. Yes, I've dealt with male/male fighting. However, it was the intact male that wasn't the aggressor in both cases. I say my males didn't change because they didn't. My last male was at least five before he was neutered... well into adulthood. The vet saying he would change and then didn't only made me look harder at aggression and neutering. All of our experiences color our opinions and knowledge base. There are many, many variables that we can't control at play in regards to temperament and aggression in dogs. If there was proof of causation between intact animals and aggression, then simply neutering a male would end male aggression issues. However, there's no proof of this. Personality doesn't reside in the testicles.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Liesje said:


> chelle, for what it's worth, I consider you fully informed and would have done *exactly* what you did in your situation. I've got two large adult males right now and one is neutered. In fact he was neutered around ten weeks of age. Nikon basically treats him like a spayed female.
> 
> I guess the difference is that I *try to give the OP the benefit of the doubt,* that by coming here and asking s/he is open to doing the researching and making an informed decision so I *don't want to pressure him/her into doing something irreversible,* especially at the dog's current age. You're right, none of us know the OP or the dog so unless I have reason to believe otherwise I will *hope* that the OP genuinely means right by their dog and is capable of containing the dog and managing interactions with other dogs and if s/he needs help with these things *s/he will ask*.


Thank you. I suppose I am not as hopeful. Sometimes people just want to hear what they want to hear, you know? Then once they get that validation, they quit seeking any more info.

I made a pest of myself on this forum with my back and forth on neutering. It was a huge deal to me. Was told he was a mix, so get him neutered -- but his *health* and his *bones* and his development were paramount to me, mix or not! I don't wish to pressure anyone -- I totally respect that this is an important decision.



Jag said:


> Chelle- as I've posted before, my first GSD protected me from my ex. He then became aggressive to ALL males that came anywhere near me.
> 
> In a litter, there are all types of personalities. It's likely when you have more than one male in a home that one will be the aggressor and one will not be. Although, it's possible that neither male will be the non-aggressor, in which case you've really got a fight on your hands. *I'm interested to know why you didn't have the aggressor neutered right away*? Instead, the non-aggressor was neutered? *Or am I misunderstanding*? I'm sorry you had to re-home Tucker. I know your hope was to work it out. Yes, I've dealt with male/male fighting. However, it was the intact male that wasn't the aggressor in both cases. I say my males didn't change because they didn't. My last male was at least five before he was neutered... well into adulthood. The vet saying he would change and then didn't only made me look harder at aggression and neutering. *All of our experiences color our opinions and knowledge base*. There are many, many variables that we can't control at play in regards to temperament and aggression in dogs. If there was proof of causation between intact animals and aggression, then simply neutering a male would end male aggression issues. However, there's no proof of this. Personality doesn't reside in the testicles.


No, I don't know of your past with the ex and such.. 

I don't have enough time to type out everything in the history here.  Very long story that would get us too far off base, although I guess that's already been done. 

I raised the intact guy from 11 weeks. The other guy came in when the owner gave up on him @ 9 months. Since my intentions for "my" guy had been to get to 18 mos before neutering, I immediately had the "new" guy neutered. The "new guy" was not intended to be kept -- the plan was to get him better trained and rehome and a neutered male is a better prospect for rehoming, besides the fact I didn't want to try two intact males in the house.

That failed when I fell in love and the boys were awesome together. Six or so months went by and the boys were great buddies. Play together, lay together, they could even share bones, toys, etc... 

Something changed. It came on slow. The intact guy started going after the other guy. It started as tiffs.. not big deals.. and it escalated. I don't know why. The home dynamics hadn't changed; we were doing all the things we had always done.

You are right in that our experiences do color our base..


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

If anyone would like to see My female and male I posted them on the photo gallery , And I thank all of you all your info , It was a great help Thank you


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Glad you were able to sift through the responses and do some more research and it helped you. Sorry it is one of those "hot button" issues on the forum. Lovely dog and puppy. Looking forward to seeing more.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Sorry for long multi-post, just finished skimming through this post and had a few things to say! 



msvette2u said:


> I believe it does help. To say it "will not" is an opinion, not a fact.
> However, once those behaviors are "set", it may be harder to get rid of them, training or not.


I'm of the opinion it does help too. My experience is more limited than others but from what I've seen, it's definitely helpful. Set behaviors are definitely more difficult to train out, neutered or not, so that's something to take into consideration too.



chelle said:


> Hormones are hormones. I believe they can influence the intensity of behaviors. Amplify them. That's not rocket science, just simple biology.


This, EXACTLY. This is precisely what I've seen in my own dog. Precisely the difference I saw in another pre/post neuter. Sometimes this is a good thing and we want this. Oftentimes not, especially when we want a pet/companion. It varies from dog to dog. Biological "machines" are anything but simple.



JakodaCD OA said:


> With that, I just never really had to deal with aggression, behavior issues in my males so could never really say whether neutering would 'fix'/tone down or not..Figure if you don't have a problem to begin with, neutering isn't going to 'invent' one


That's another thing, too, that I rarely see made mention of - neutering your dog is very, very, unlikely to 'invent,' as you say, any new problems. I've actually never even once heard of any case of a neuter causing behavioral problems that I wouldn't attribute to the timing and stages of maturity (right before the dog became a teenager, for instance).



chelle said:


> I still cannot help but wonder how much of some behavioural issues are driven extra hard by testosterone? Like putting a person in a Ferrari and another in a Chevette.  Whose gonna get in more trouble? Ok, stupid, but .... I don't think you can discount testosterone as a strong force.


Exactly. You can't say that sexual hormones are paramount to all sorts of health issues, and then completely discount their affect on behavior (and then at the same time say it's vital for developing a strong working drive). I think you mentioned this later, too, IIRC.

I will admit too that when I had my "sportier" car, as opposed to my pickup now, I drove a lot more recklessly and took more chances, drove faster, passed people more often, etc. That's testosterone & other variables combining to create bad behavior. I'm not going to try and sugar-coat that, I know exactly what it was. My truck is very powerful, easily capable of reaching the same speeds, and quickly. It just doesn't combine with the testosterone as easily.

We know it causes risk-taking behavior in humans - that's why my auto insurance costs more than my sister's. Why would it not also affect canine behavior in undesirable ways? We're both mammals and while we have higher intellect to override hormonal effects on our behavior, the mechanism is similar.



msvette2u said:


> With this I agree.
> You can't say it's responsible for all these live-driving things like proper growth, maturity, etc., and yet discount it's effect on behavior.


Ah, you mentioned it . Yes, this, exactly.



chelle said:


> What I think some people don't "get," is that just because *your* (generic) experience with an intact male has been peachy-keen, it isn't that way for everyone. I am not saying the OP should neuter at six months, but you...people... don't... know.... squat... about... this... person and there you are, telling him to keep his dog intact.
> 
> Are you folks going to be there when his dog escapes the busted fence and produces a litter? You don't know enough about the isituation -- NOR DID ANY OF YOU ASK ABOUT HIS SITUATION -- to know some very important facts. What are his training goals? Does he have other animals? Does he go to dog parks, or want to go to them? Does he have neighbor dogs? Does he want to get other dogs, especially males?
> 
> All of these things were asked of me and my mixed dog. Yeah, I was put thru a ringer over these things. I'm glad for that, though -- it made me THINK, made me do my homework.... made me *truly respect the responsibility of owning an intact male* and it IS indeed a responsiblity *over and above basic dog ownership*. Yet, this new poster is simply advised to leave the dog intact. Personally, I find that irresponsible without knowing any more than what little information was provided by OP here.


You pretty much summed up exactly why I've switched away from giving an unknown person "the benefit of the doubt."

Recommending a neuter at six months is a lot safer, in the grand scheme of things, than recommending they leave their dog intact well past sexual maturity. I own an intact male, but one with very, very low drive. I expect you have an even better understanding than I do of the responsibility. I do get it, though.

We got almost no information, and what information was posted was not terribly promising. Most of us have good people sense - no, we can't live so paranoid of the entire world that we tell every last new poster around to neuter, neuter, neuter, neuter. But we can tell when a person is above and beyond that average level, to where that risk may be safer to take. We can tell that about you, for sure.

But when it's something like the OP? Little information, and what there is, is not something good? We can't let our personal politics get in the way of doing what is smart. I used to be really gung-ho never-neuter-unless-for-health-reasons. I've strayed a long way away from that pretty much to the other side in the past year or so. But I know how it feels, and you want other people to share in that knowledge. Learning is FUN. Unfortunately, just telling them that...they have to take that journey too, to really "get it."

I really don't think it's the best idea to advise someone to leave their dog intact as a first thing. Advise them to neuter, advise them where to go to learn more, either one of those is a good option. Either way they choose, it's more likely to work out for the best. When you know more? Great! You CAN tailor "riskier" advice to fit the situation.

But at least for me, I feel a lot safer advising someone to neuter their dog and/or where to go for more information about the subject, than I would advising them to leave their dog intact, as a first reaction. Not because I think they are incapable, but because going on such little information, that's the best advise you can give, unless you're able to get more.


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

Well Draugr I read some of your replies , And I have read every single one of these, and have learned alot from all you german shepherd owners. from what I studied Google it , and from what I have learned on the forums , there is good and bad to this . But know that doing it at a early age does mess with them . If I decide to do it , It will be later down the road. I read through some of your replies and agrees , And I want to ask is your dog Neutered? and if not why? You say you have seen it in your dogs behavior , so I am taking it as he is not . I just had to ask


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

I got my male neutered at 1y. I waited for a year for his developement. I neutered him because I take him everywhere and he is often off leash (I live in a very rural area). Not everyones dogs he is around are altered. I wanted him to keep his freedom without me having to worry if he was going to procreate. I didnt want to worry about that small chance he may leave my side for a moment, to "get some".

As far as behavior change, I do notice he is calmer overall. Especially when meeting other dogs. He was never aggressive. Just excitable. I also noticed he pays more attention to me when in an "excited state". Instead of going into "brain off" mode. 

Just my personal preference and opinion.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Movin64 said:


> Well Draugr I read some of your replies , And I have read every single one of these, and have learned alot from all you german shepherd owners. from what I studied Google it , and from what I have learned on the forums , there is good and bad to this . But know that doing it at a early age does mess with them . If I decide to do it , It will be later down the road. I read through some of your replies and agrees , And I want to ask is your dog Neutered? and if not why? You say you have seen it in your dogs behavior , so I am taking it as he is not . I just had to ask


He isn't, no. His best friend was neutered at about fifteen months though, that's what I speak of when talking about the before/after differences. Any future dog of mine, if male, will probably be neutered at that age or sooner (if they aren't already via rescue/shelter contract).

Mine isn't because while I was going through the rocky teenager stage I was hard-core anti-neuter "it's gonna kill your dog, won't do anything for behavior." I wouldn't personally alter my dog at six months, but neither do I think it's a recipe for disaster if someone does. Now that he is through the teenager years and on the other side, his behavior doesn't really necessitate it. I really do NOT want to go through that again though. It was a pain even with a dog with almost no drive to speak of. I can't imagine adding in drive to the equation. He wasn't uncontrollable, just...I don't know, hard to explain. I could handle another Samson again, but there's no way I would want to deal with anything worse.

I am glad to see you have stuck around. This is a pretty high-volatility topic .


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

*Brought this topic up awhile back*

I brought this topic up awhile back , and just wanted to update , My male is still intact , but he is getting very aggressive around my fixed female, i dont know if its just frustration or what, he is now a little over10 months old, and i really did not want to have him fixed yet, because the topic here was if you do get them fixed , dont until their growing is over with, He is just terrorizing the heck out of my female, and its to the point to where they are getting into fights because she just wants him to leave her alone. she lets him know by taking him down , not hurting him , but just letting him know (leave me alone) but he gets back up and goes back after her biting and grabbing the side of her main , and legs and feet, being dominate . Its to the point to where she scared of him. and he is still a puppy, Will this stop? or is going to get to the point to where he gets bigger that the weakest won wins, He is going to be bigger then her for sure, The i always stop him from being aggressive at her when i am around , My question is will fixing fix this? , And how much longer do I have to wait ?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do not think his behavior is because he is intact. I have not had that kind of problem with intact males I have owned. I think it is because he is a rude puppy who has not gotten a serious enough correction from the female to make him knock it off. 

I think you need to step in and lay down some ground rules between the dogs.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

I'd wager he's just in that awkward relationship stage where his puppy license hasn't quite expired yet. I'd agree 100% with jocoyn's assessment - he's rude and hasn't gotten a severe enough correction from the female.


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## Karma6577 (Jan 22, 2013)

We ended up taking Zens boy hood away from him due to the same problem. His sexual aggression got way out of hand and even when Karma would put him down and hurt him (stitches) he would keep going. I would correct him and distract him and he would not let up. We stepped up training and hikes and structured walks and he would still go after her. We ended up taking him in at 7 months....3 months of trying. Since that happened he has yet to pace her butt or even hump her. Training has excelled and he is listening 95% of the time..still puppy at 10 months. When we made the decision it was long and extremely hard to do because we work our dogs and are very active. There just comes a point to where which is going to be better for the dog, the pack and safety of everyone. 


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## Movin64 (Aug 23, 2012)

*I posted awhile back about neutering*

I post awhile back about neutering my male, he was only 6 months old at the time, As of posts I decided to wait until he matured a little more, talking to my vet they say neutering really has nothing to do with effecting his size , again my female is fixed , and he keeps trying to mount her and she wont let him and i think his aggressive behavior is because she wont let him , She basically takes him down and tells him no, but he gets back up goes after her main , ears , in a aggressive way like he is frustrated at the fact she wont let him, will neutering make him stop all this aggressiveness told her , I think she is getting a little tired of him also , and when playing with neighbors dogs females , he tries to mount them also , and they are spayed also. Is the vet right will this not stunt his grown at 10 months ? and with neuturing make him a whimp


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> and with neuturing make him a whimp


No. 



> There just comes a point to where which is going to be better for the dog, the pack and safety of everyone.


:thumbup:
We notice this a lot in rescue, as well. When the hormones wane, the dog is much easier to live with!


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## Rangers-mom (Jan 28, 2013)

Well this is purely the observation of one dog owner but here is my story.

I got a male GSD at 7 weeks and I already had an 11 year old neutered male Australian Shepherd. As the GSD got older my Aussie seemed more and more irritated with the GSD. There was never any aggression, and maybe i am nuts, but the GSD seemed to laud it over the Aussie that he had something the Aussie didn't. My poor Aussie just looked completely disgusted with the GSD. Then about 3 weeks ago, at 8 months old, the GSD was neutered. Once again i may be nuts, but it seems like my Aussie is much happier with the situation and likewise the GSD seems much more respectful of his elder neutered brother.


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