# The "place" command question.



## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I am teaching Lyka the place command. She is showing great progress, but there is one thing I can't seem to find an answer to.

Should they be allowed to use the place on their own, without being told to place, or should they only use that spot when given the command? She is basically using it like a doggy bed, and going on and off at will. She has a bed in her room she used to do that with, but no longer uses that one, she goes to her place bed now. But, I feel like it might hinder her training as she doesn't stay on it until released because I never have her the command to go there.

Do I remove it when not using it for training, or is she okay using it as a bed when not training?


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

It's okay to use the "place" for other things. If she really likes her place it makes it so much easier to train the command. I actually move my dogs "place" around when training. Her place is a mutt matt and I take one with me for training so when it isn't her turn she goes to her place where ever it is. If you didn't command your dog to go to her place she doesn't have to be released because it wasn't an order. If she chooses to go there any time she can get up anytime on those occasions. She will know the difference of being commanded to place and when it is her choice. My dogs have never had a problem figuring that one out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I use the place command for control, so I don't leave anything voluntary about it. I want it black and white that it doesn't end till he's released, but I also don't use any specific object or spot for it. I down him where I want him and have him stay.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Perfect answers! 

I can't add anything else ... other than - once she gets it, you'll love it! It's an AMAZING COMMAND!


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Differing bits of advice. I guess just go with what works for her? Initially I was using a mat for her place spot, then after watching videos, it was recommended that the spot be raised off the ground so they have to step into it, so I made a "bed." It has a 2 inch rigid styrofoam base, with padding on top, and I sewed a cover to keep the padding and foam from separating. Maybe it's just too comfortable for her? She literally ignores her dog bed in her room now. 

I do like the idea of moving it around. I have it placed a couple feet from the front door trying to get her to "place" when people come over. She has horrible door manners. She rushes the door and jumps and licks guests. The few she likes that is. No one else comes over because they get a much different reaction, so she is roomed when they come over now. I'd like to get her a firm place down to help with both issues.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

OK - for me, when I say place I mean you stay there and you don't move until I come and get you from that place - you don't call her from place - you physically go and get her. 

That is VERY different from them choosing to lay down. 

So in your example, if the doorbell rings, if Lyka's in place she's NOT allowed to move AT ALL. Whereas in a down she could move!

It will likely take you about a month to get a rock solid PLACE command with a million distractions before she gets it that NO MATTER what happens, she can't break place!

BUT - you have to remember - you can NEVER call her out of it, you go get her.

THat's how I do mine.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Kyleigh, I do the same. When I release her, I go up, pick her leash up, and say "Okay" and she knows she can leave the place mat.

I just don't whether its okay for her to use it on her own as a bed, ya know?


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

She could use it as her own bed, but I wouldn't consider it the place command. So, if she leaves it, you can't "punish" her since she wasn't told to stay there!

They WILL figure it out after a bit!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gonna say this is a first as AFASIK ?? I don't think I have seen anyone ask a "specific question" on "The Place Command??"

As I see it your currently operating between two "extremes" I tend to think Sean makes things way more "complicated" then they need to be?? And mostly I tend to make things way to simple??

An X factor is that GSD's seem to be "extremely" good at understanding their owners intent?? It's therefore for very easy to train a "behaviour" you did not expect??

That might be what you are seeing?? The Dog is going to what you "consider as "Place"
unbidden?? But if he hop's up unexpectedly?? That's not place!

And if you place the "Place Cot" by the front door?? That's pretty much a automatic "High Threshold" position if some knocks on the door!

Don't do that! The whole point of a "Place Cot" is that it makes easier for the dog to distinguish between the ground and where he is "suppose" to be!

It makes it easier to train "Place" but it's not needed! All you "need" is a rug or a towel! You tell the dog "Place" and he is not to move from that spot until you say "OK!"

My guy been 8 years now "still" does not much care for company! I put him in "Place" and "I" keep company out of his face! And "we" have no issues! He does not move from "Place!" 

The accidentally taught behaviour thing?? Rocky (GSD) showed "me" that "on the lawn" was a taught and learned/trained behaviour?? I had no idea??

One day on a walk going home I told Rocky "On the Lawn" he was off leash and on point.

We were three houses away from home I said to him to him "On the Lawn" I stopped to tie my shoes and look up and "Rocky" is still going forward?? So I stop and observe?? I watch as Rocky continues two houses down gets to our driveway makes a hard left goes out to the edge of our lawn and from there turns left and looks for me??? 

My jaw dropped?? I had no idea?? All my dogs knew that but my GSD was the only one that made "me" "aware" that "On the Lawn" was an accidental command!

The front lawn was in essence a "giant" Place Mat" they were free to move about the whole of the front yard ... they just could not move beyond it! They all that got that but my GSD showed "me" it was an actual command!

Long way of saying, it sounds like your dog is "abusing the "Place Cot" and you're trying to use in it a high threshold manner??

Back to basics use a towel or multiple towels or dog beds throughout the house four or five feet apart go to each of them and say "Place" and walk away. Let the dog stay in "Place for 15 to 30 minutes or more.

I do know I saw Sean showing doing that, it was only for a minute or two on the clip I saw but the point was clear. The Dog knew what "Place meant!

Long way of saying ..."out think" your dog!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If you provided the "place" command every time the door bell rings, your dog will soon learn to go to "place" when the door bell rings. It will associate the door bell with the command. If you didn't provide the command, can you correct for non compliance when your dog decides on his (her) own to step off? 

If someone knocks on my door and my dog goes to his place, I'll give the command anyway. Even if he is sitting there waiting with baited breath. It's my command to give and my command to release. 

If my dog is sleeping on his "place" and I haven't provided the command, he's allowed to leave anytime he wishes. I didn't give him a command to comply to.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Chip, maybe I should give more info in my posts, but I'm always so wordy as is, I don't want to over do it.

My house is tiny, and old, which means no open floor plan and everything is blocked by walls. It's only 900 sq ft total. So the bed isn't placed near the door intentionally, it doesn't matter where I place it in the living room, it will be the same distance from the door. Unless I put it in the kitchen, which is the size of a postage stamp, and I would trip over it going through the doorway and it would block the stove, fridge, sink, and counters. Lol

I am not doing any human interaction at this point at all. I'm not training her with distractions at all at this point. So working on her place command now is at the beginning staged. If by chance someone is coming over, she is still put in her room, which she knows well. I point to her room and say in, she goes in, I shut the door, and then let whoever is at the door in. 

My goal is to eventually be able to use it as a way to give her a way to learn door manners. I'm not naive enough to think she's anywhere near ready for that stage, it's just what I am working towards with her.

I walk her to the bed, say place, release the leash, leave her for a few
Minutes, and go back, grab her leash, and release her by saying okay. I will build up to longer intervals until she consistantly obeys the command until I release her before I'll even think about adding distractions. 

Honestly, I just wanted to know if it's cool for her to relax on it on her own, or if I should remove it while not training her with it.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'd say let her lie on it anytime. It can become a sanctuary and the dog shows it doesn't see being put in that area as a punishment. She likes it. 

To me long posts are cool when it's paragraphed out like yours as the points can be clearly read. It's the long train of thought kind of posts are hard to decipher sometimes

Don't wanna be thread jacking now. 

As you were.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I don't want to start a new thread every time I have a different question, so hopefully this won't get passed over as more info for the place command. 

I'm getting Lyka used to commands with no treats inside the house. First, she is overly food motivated, so she loses focus and just wants food food food, and she stopped responding to commands unless I have treats in hand. We just went through 20 minutes of sit, down, up, come, stay, and release. She did very good sans treats with just lots of praise. Stayed well focused the whole time, much better than when I train with treats. But, her down is horrible. 

The only way I can get her in a down is to point to the floor and bend in half until I am almost touching the floor myself. I do hand commands with verbal, and every command she gets except the down. I'll say down while pointing to the floor, and she looks at me like I'm stupid (which I have proven in the past ) and stays still until I bend and almost touch the floor, then she goes into an instant down. Someone please tell me how to stop the madness, by back is killing me :help:


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

Start over with treats (try something that she isn't lose her mind crazy about but still wants) point and say down, do NOT bend and don't give the treat until she does it your way. She probably thinks that touching towards the ground is the signal because that's what worked many times. You could also try practicing (all) the commands without hand signals multiple times until she responds to down without one and then use the signal you want at the same time for a while so she associates it with the word down.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

I assume these things because she is happily following your commands and also was willing to go into a down on command however is following a different visual cue than you want (because you continue to do it  ) she is watching visual cues more than hearing them so she was waiting for a command and that's what she thinks is the command haha.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Great point Wick. She will easily do all the commands on verbal commands solo, hand commands solo, or in unison, but the down she only does with the hand commands. 

I'll give her 10 more minutes and run through it again with just verbal, and see if she gets it. Maybe if I wait her out she will figure it out on her own. 

I'm pretty sure I screwed it up, because when I first got her she jumped on everything, including me and the kids. So I said down a lot to get her to stop. I'm probably confusing the heck out of her and that's why she's looking at me like I'm stupid. 

I did switch to "off" about 2 weeks ago for random sporadic jumping, and she had no issues with a change in that, should I maybe use a command different than down to get her to lay down? Or just stick with down until she gets it?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kyleigh said:


> She could use it as her own bed, but I wouldn't consider it the place command. So, if she leaves it, you can't "punish" her since she wasn't told to stay there!


That would be how I would do it. If I tell you to go there, you have to stay there until I release you to leave. But if you choose to hang out there on your own when not commanded to do so, you can leave at will too. 

If you want to keep it clean and very clear, pick up the mat unless you're planning to actually use it, unless you don't mind if she goes on and off without being cued. That's a personal choice thing. When I was doing place work with Halo, the mat only came out when I was going to tell her to go to it, it was kept rolled up in the garage at other times. 

I do think dogs are capable of discriminating between a training/obedience situation and a non-training, casual situation. It could take a bit longer for her to figure out though.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

In the interest of harmony ...I'll let your observations with the "treats" thing go." 

It sounds like you got your answer for your dog's "self "Placing" as it were. Since no command was given ...no Command is being broken if she moves, as I see it??

The background info my be a pain at times but it does make your situation a little easier to understand. 

In regards to the hand signals ...I've always used both. If you stay consistent, they will reach the "either" one will do stage.

Boxers taught me the value of hand signals ..you can see the wheels spin with those guys when they get it! 

These days the vast majority of my communication with Rocky is "non verbal." 

So really it seems like your understanding of training "Place" seems to be sound?? The "Place Cot" and your dogs unexpected behavior with it threw you a curve. 

I think your also kinda wanting to know "how long before the command is solid??" I have no idea myself?? In the info I link no one seems to address it??

I heard one of the guys I often cite say a dog should be able to remain in "Place" for two hours or longer and I think I heard something about building up to that in 15 minuet intervals??

Seems reasonable.

Since you did add more details. 

Down, came up ...you might find this useful??:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaVvwbT7iYw

I think your better than you realize, if you try and relax a little bit more ... you'll be better able to see that.

I can see it, and as I learned from Rocky ...don't make a mountain out of a molehill! 

Carry on


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

When you say down and use that specific signal you need to expect and enforce a full down every time, if you accidentally say down instead of off (which I assume means you merely want her off of people or things not necessarily in a full down ever time) make sure that she follows through with what you expect from that command (the said command/signaled). Also make sure that if in fact "off" does not mean a full down when you say it that it has a different signal (maybe an open hand swipe down instead of a finger point etc) or train off to mean down also and expect a full down every time that way if you do interchange them and use the same signal in a rush to get results she knows what you want. No matter what you do you will want to clearly reward the behavior you want (a down without bending) a few times so she realizes that is what you want when you do it. Never bend again but definitely reinforce with treats so that there is less confusion.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

My dog has a small hand towel that I use for 'place', as well as his 2 beds. I use the hand towel as it is quick and easy to take anywhere.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

jschrest said:


> I don't want to start a new thread every time I have a different question, so hopefully this won't get passed over as more info for the place command.
> 
> I'm getting Lyka used to commands with no treats inside the house. First, she is overly food motivated, so she loses focus and just wants food food food, and she stopped responding to commands unless I have treats in hand. We just went through 20 minutes of sit, down, up, come, stay, and release. She did very good sans treats with just lots of praise. Stayed well focused the whole time, much better than when I train with treats. But, her down is horrible.
> 
> The only way I can get her in a down is to point to the floor and bend in half until I am almost touching the floor myself. I do hand commands with verbal, and every command she gets except the down. I'll say down while pointing to the floor, and she looks at me like I'm stupid (which I have proven in the past ) and stays still until I bend and almost touch the floor, then she goes into an instant down. Someone please tell me how to stop the madness, by back is killing me :help:


Downing on command can be a little different for a lot of dogs because it has a certain amount of submission and feelings of vulnerability for them. Don't be in too big a hurry to chain things together. Work downs all by themselves till you have completely faded out anything physical. Always remember command first, then physical cue. Whether you're using food or stepping on the leash, verbal first.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

If she goes down happily for you and will work for treats try this. Practise some commands, make sure a few 'pointing at the ground' downs are in there and she gets rewarded for them. Then, while standing straight, ask her to down. She probably won't, so wait. Give her ten seconds or so and if she still hasn't downed, say down again and point to the ground. She probably will down at this point, mark it and release her but do NOT give her the treat. Show her the treat and start again. Give her a few seconds longer than you feel comfortable with, sometimes that's all they need at first. If she does down from verbal only, have a huge party and a few small treats in a row. Then do it again. If you do this a few times and she still isn't going down, try doing the same thing but pointing halfway down after you've given the command. Avoid bending all the way over, and if you have to bend all the way to the ground she doesn't get a treat or praise. Most dogs will catch on quickly. 
My dogs place on whatever I point at. I think they think of it more as a downstay honestly. When I travel I use a towel or bathmat, at home it can be any one of the many dog beds/mats around the house. They get sent there and are expected to stay until I release them. Otherwise any bed is free game. They see things as black and white so try not to overthink your training plan.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks Steve and Mikelia, really great advice. I'll give it a go when the girls are in the bath so they can't distract her, or me!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

To expand on what Steve said about using the command first and then the physical cue - you always do whatever the dog _doesn't_ know before what the dog _does_ know. If you say the command at the same time as your hand signal (or whole body signal, in this case oke:  ), she's not paying attention to what you're saying, she's watching what you're doing. You're not making progress because she's not actually learning anything by doing it this way. Dogs don't have verbal language like we do so they're very in tune with body language. And humans tend to verbalize a lot, the vast majority of which has nothing to do with the dog, so they're already used to ignoring a lot of what we say. You can say "banana" and give her a hand signal for "sit", and I'll bet you 10 out of 10 times she sits!

By saying the command, waiting a beat or two and then giving the physical cue, the word, (that she doesn't know yet), becomes a predictor of the hand signal (that she does know), and the two will become associated with each other. I start fading out the hand signal by waiting a little bit longer each time before using it after I've given the verbal cue, and only as a reminder, if necessary.

You should be able to start fading your physical cue to something a bit more subtle too. You may have to be patient and wait her out if she won't down immediately. If she'll consistently go down with your hand a foot from the floor, try it with your hand two feet from the floor. Wait. Once she'll go down with your hand two feet from the floor, try three feet. And wait. Let her work it out each time you change the criteria. And only change the criteria when she's consistently complying at the current level.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

jschrest said:


> I'm getting Lyka used to commands with no treats inside the house. First, she is overly food motivated, so she loses focus and just wants food food food, and she stopped responding to commands unless I have treats in hand.


There are several different philosophies when it comes to working with very food motivated dogs. Some people like to get the treats off their person, leaving them somewhere nearby, such as on the kitchen counter or a shelf. The dog learns they will get rewarded even if you don't have treats on you. Food is available, even if it's not visible. 

Another way, which is what I usually do, is have treats on me at all times when I'm training a new puppy. I strap on the treat bag when I get home from work, and take it off at bedtime. What this does is desensitize the dog to the presence of food - just because I have some, that doesn't mean you'll get any. Food isn't necessarily available, even when it _is _visible. 

And I also train impulse control around food, so the more you mug me for the treats, the less likely you'll ever get some. Have you done the "It's Yer Choice" game before? It's kind of a default "leave it", because you don't actually give the dog any cues. You start feeding her as soon as she stops trying to get the food in your hand, so she learns that backing away from the food makes you give it to her. I add eye contact (also uncued), so my dogs have learned that the way to get what I have is to ignore it and look at me instead. This works great with bully sticks, our most prized treat. And holding a treat in front of their noses has become a cue to look at me. I don't have to say a word because it's a default behavior. 






Halo is off the charts food crazy, and she picked this up in no time! I spent just a few minutes every day doing this, usually with part of her meals. The more motivated a dog is the easier they are to train, you just need to find ways to exploit it.


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