# Should GSDs have Prey Drive?



## Ada_GSD

Deleting text from post as this is a copy of another thread that got hijacked and this post wasn't part of that discussion. Can't delete the post itself as it is the first in the thread. Admin.


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## atravis

Castlemaid said:


> Here you go!!!
> 
> Elem. of Temperament
> 
> Best article I have ever seen discussing temperament. I would consider this mandatory reading for all GSD owners, and future GSD owners.
> 
> Breeders should be able to quote it backwards and forwards  .


Ugg, I could not agree less with this article.

Namely with her apparent opinion of prey drive in this breed.
I once heard someone describe prey in GSDs as a disease.

I couldn't agree more. 

GSDs were never meant to be cat-killing, critter chasing lunatics. 

Her definition of Defensive drive is accurate to some degree. But this:
Assuming the dog has good, strong nerves and a reasonably high threshold, a dog with strong defense drive *can* be a good working dog.

_Can_? Excuse me? 
Is it any wonder that many of the actual working dogs of today, the K9s, the PPDs, have absolutely no prey at all? Or at least VERY little? 

Where is her explanation of fight drive? Of civil aggression/civil drive?
A good GSD doesn't give a rat's arse about chasing fluffy lures or traditional "prey" items. For sport, maybe. But for real work? Its man-focused or nothing. Prey is a determent to these dogs.


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## Castlemaid

Lex,

Interesting about prey drive and the working K9. I assume that you breed, train, and work the streets with these dogs? Because that is the first I have heard that prey drive is detrimental to a working dog and would love to hear how the driveless dog is trained and kept motivated to keep working.


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## atravis

Castlemaid said:


> Lex,
> 
> Interesting about prey drive and the working K9. I assume that you breed, train, and work the streets with these dogs? Because that is the first I have heard that prey drive is detrimental to a working dog and would love to hear how the driveless dog is trained and kept motivated to keep working.


Oh, I'm sorry, do YOU do these things?

Prey is detrimental for the very reason your woman writing this article says. 

"A dog working only in prey lacks seriousness. They also focus on equipment, rather than on the agitator."

This comment would have had more merit, had she not burned the entire article with this statement:
"A GSD with low prey drive is a crime against nature."

A serious civil dog does not need to play games with his handler to stay motivated. The work IS the motivation. He doesn't get joy from being fed the sleeve a few times as a "reward". His reward is getting hold of whatever is behind that suit.


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## Cain

Castlemaid said:


> Lex,
> 
> Interesting about prey drive and the working K9. I assume that you breed, train, and work the streets with these dogs? Because that is the first I have heard that prey drive is detrimental to a working dog and would love to hear how the driveless dog is trained and kept motivated to keep working.


I don't do this currently, but I HAVE, in the past - primarily with PPD, and A. Travis is absolutely correct. The LAST thing a handler doing real life work wants is a prey driven dog.


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## Chris Wild

atravis said:


> Namely with her apparent opinion of prey drive in this breed.
> I once heard someone describe prey in GSDs as a disease.
> 
> I couldn't agree more.


Baloney.

Prey drive is absolutely correct for this breed. GSD's *should* have prey drive. It should not be the only drive (and certainly not in protection) but it should not be lacking either.




atravis said:


> GSDs were never meant to be cat-killing, critter chasing lunatics.


True. But to say that the existance of prey drive = cat killing lunatics is ridiculous. Certainly this sort of dog exists. But it is not a function of prey drive that is the problem, but rather an overall tendency toward extremes and lack of balance.

I would say that the "disease" that affects this breed is just that: extremes and lack of balance. Not just with regard to drives but all temperament traits, structure, etc... 



atravis said:


> Is it any wonder that many of the actual working dogs of today, the K9s, the PPDs, have absolutely no prey at all? Or at least VERY little?


Right. That's why so many K9s and military and PP dogs are Malinois. Because they certainly don't have any prey drive. :rolleyes2:

Prey is not a detriment to real protection work. It being the *only* drive of which the dog is capable, or an all consuming drive, or the only one accessed in training IS. But there is a big difference there. 



atravis said:


> Where is her explanation of fight drive? Of civil aggression/civil drive? A good GSD doesn't give a rat's arse about chasing fluffy lures or traditional "prey" items. For sport, maybe. But for real work? Its man-focused or nothing. Prey is a determent to these dogs.


I do agree this is lacking in the article, and something I have always wish was addressed. However many working people don't make the distinction between aggression born of defense and that born of fight drive. They term both as "defense" and that is probably the case here. When in reality, reactive aggression (defense) and active aggression (fight) are two different things.

For real protection a dog must have defense and fight, absolutely. But that same dog also having prey drive is not a detriment if those other things are present, and the overall temperament and drives of the dog are well balanced.

And while protection is an important job for a GSD, and every GSD should have the ability to protect, it is not the end all and be all of GSD-dom. There are many other jobs the breed does and is supposed to be able to do, that DO require prey drive. Detector and search work being amongst those. Defense and fight aren't going to get you very far in sniffing out drugs and explosives or finding lost people in the woods.


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## atravis

Chris Wild said:


> True. But to say that the existance of prey drive = cat killing lunatics is ridiculous. Certainly this sort of dog exists. But it is not a function of prey drive that is the problem, but rather an overall tendency toward extremes and lack of balance.
> 
> I would say that the "disease" that affects this breed is just that: extremes and lack of balance. Not just with regard to drives but all temperament traits, structure, etc...


And I agree with you- extremes are what is ultimately killing these dogs.

But one's definition of "extreme" is subjective.
"High" is "extreme" in my eyes.




Chris Wild said:


> Right. That's why so many K9s and military and PP dogs are Malinois. Because they certainly don't have any prey drive. :rolleyes2:
> 
> Prey is not a detriment to real protection work. It being the *only* drive of which the dog is capable, or an all consuming drive, or the only one accessed in training IS. But there is a big difference there.


I guess all those low prey, high fight/defense Czech dogs are just some kind of bad joke, right?

Here, let me ask you this:
You say prey isn't a detriment to real protection work.
Ok then, what GOOD is it? What does it do for the dog (besides lessening stress as people keep saying, though honestly just how "stressed" these dogs get is wholly a matter of how far the handler is willing to push the dog and how soon). How is it FUNCTIONAL.

A dog does not need prey to defend against a person trying to assault you on the street, or a person who breaks into your home.

Granted, some level of prey might be needed in K9 work, as most dogs do not act in direct defence of their handler. But however much may be needed in that should be considerably dwarfed by fight and civil aggression. 

And while it is not the popular opinion with this breed, they CAN be worked in defense as a starting ground. People call these trainers lunatics, but they're out there doing it. Some are very successful at it... obviously they're doing something right if people keep going back to them.



Chris Wild said:


> I do agree this is lacking in the article, and something I have always wish was addressed. However many working people don't make the distinction between aggression born of defense and that born of fight drive. They term both as "defense" and that is probably the case here. When in reality, reactive aggression (defense) and active aggression (fight) are two different things.
> 
> For real protection a dog must have defense and fight, absolutely. But that same dog also having prey drive is not a detriment if those other things are present, and the overall temperament and drives of the dog are well balanced.
> 
> And while protection is an important job for a GSD, and every GSD should have the ability to protect, it is not the end all and be all of GSD-dom. There are many other jobs the breed does and is supposed to be able to do, that DO require prey drive. Detector and search work being amongst those. Defense and fight aren't going to get you very far in sniffing out drugs and explosives or finding lost people in the woods.


No, protection is not the be-all.
But if the only way these dogs can preform SAR work is to have "extreme" prey, then maybe we better start reevaluating our training methods. 

I consider my DDR/Czech boy low-medium prey, high defense, and as he's started to mature, very high fight. I can hardly play tug with him anymore, as he drags me clean to the ground, and will NOT let up until I out him.

I suspect this is a dog who could do anything I set my mind to training him. He's coming along very nicely in tracking, awesome in protection work... and, ok, he could still use a little work in OB, but we're getting there. 

The last time I took him to Sch, he nearly pulled the helper to the ground just doing drive building. 

He's far too social to ever be a K9 (can't all be perfect), but I could see him making a nice family-level personal protection dog. And when his OB finally starts to improve (still got one more year to go!), I see him being a stellar Sch dog.

Baloney, though. No way a piddly little low-prey dog could do that


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## Chris Wild

Lex, I think you need to read my post again.

No where did I say that a real protection dog needs prey drive and couldn't be trained utilizing other drives. 

What I said was that the existance of prey drive in such a dog is not a detrement and does not prevent the dog from performing that sort of work.

Huge difference.

You clearly stated that your feelings are that a GSD does not need prey drive and should not have prey drive and that if it is there it is a problem for protection work (and the family cat is doomed). 

You also stated to prove your case that many real protection dogs do not have prey drive. While that is true, the term "many" is subjective, and no matter how you view it does not equate to most or as proof that prey drive is a bad thing. Especially when the actual reality is that most of the dogs doing this form of work DO have prey drive in pretty decent amounts. 

Do they need it? No, not if the other drives are there. But they have it. And that is not problematic with a balanced dog and good training.


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## Wildtim

atravis said:


> A serious civil dog does not need to play games with his handler to stay motivated. The work IS the motivation. He doesn't get joy from being fed the sleeve a few times as a "reward". His reward is getting hold of whatever is behind that suit.


What a load of hooey.

In most dogs lacking prey the work isn't the motivation the fear of pain is what motivates them. Lacking prey motivators many trainers still resort to the ol' standby crank and yank to teach behavior and then since in the trained dog they don't use behavior reinforcers they claim the dog is working for them or motivated by the work. When in fact the motivating force behind the dogs behavior is fear of pain and the memory of the same.


A dog working in aggression doesn't necessarily want to hurt anyone either, their goal is often to dominate not to damage. They don't care about the equipment enough to want to try to get through it it is simply a tool the know to use in the fight for dominance.


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## Wildtim

atravis said:


> I guess all those low prey, high fight/defense Czech dogs are just some kind of bad joke, right?


Haven't met any check dogs I would consider low prey, at least not ones capable of any type of work other than couch warming, sorry.




atravis said:


> Here, let me ask you this:
> You say prey isn't a detriment to real protection work.
> Ok then, what GOOD is it? What does it do for the dog (besides lessening stress as people keep saying, though honestly just how "stressed" these dogs get is wholly a matter of how far the handler is willing to push the dog and how soon). How is it FUNCTIONAL.


What good is prey?

It is the basis for all of a dogs pursuit and killing behaviors, a dog that lacks prey will not engage fully with something as large as a man and certainly won't take the full crushing (killing?) grip he need to really cause serious damage to a bad guy.

Without prey a dog can not really fight, except in his own defense and without the prey motivators he would rather run in any case.



atravis said:


> A dog does not need prey to defend against a person trying to assault you on the street, or a person who breaks into your home.
> 
> Granted, some level of prey might be needed in K9 work, as most dogs do not act in direct defence of their handler. But however much may be needed in that should be considerably dwarfed by fight and civil aggression.


How do you think you establish strong fighting behaviors without a prey base? somewhere in the dog must be the instinct to kill the prey or a fight doesn't happen, this is rooted in the prey drive.





atravis said:


> And while it is not the popular opinion with this breed, they CAN be worked in defense as a starting ground. People call these trainers lunatics, but they're out there doing it. Some are very successful at it... obviously they're doing something right if people keep going back to them.


A dog can be started in defense and in many this is their strongest drive but without any kind of prey drive they will only engage if it is their only option. There are trainers who are successful at this method and they are sought out, but not by people who's dogs work. They are paid by people who force protection into their dogs either for profit or ego, not because it is best for the dog.





atravis said:


> No, protection is not the be-all.
> But if the only way these dogs can preform SAR work is to have "extreme" prey, then maybe we better start reevaluating our training methods.


Who said "extreme" prey was _needed_ for SAR, desirable in many cases as evidenced by the number of Mali's out there but not _needed._ 



atravis said:


> I consider my DDR/Czech boy low-medium prey, high defense, and as he's started to mature, very high fight. I can hardly play tug with him anymore, as he drags me clean to the ground, and will NOT let up until I out him.


I've seen this behavior most often with a dog high in prey, or "extreme", whats your point.




atravis said:


> I suspect this is a dog who could do anything I set my mind to training him. He's coming along very nicely in tracking, awesome in protection work... and, ok, he could still use a little work in OB, but we're getting there.
> 
> The last time I took him to Sch, he nearly pulled the helper to the ground just doing drive building.


Again you are using a prey behavior to try and prove your dog woks without prey, one of us is confused?




atravis said:


> He's far too social to ever be a K9 (can't all be perfect), but I could see him making a nice family-level personal protection dog. And when his OB finally starts to improve (still got one more year to go!), I see him being a stellar Sch dog.
> 
> Baloney, though. No way a piddly little low-prey dog could do that


_Now_ I know who's confused. I would doubt you actually have a low prey dog, especially given your stories about him.


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## atravis

Chris Wild said:


> You also stated to prove your case that many real protection dogs do not have prey drive. *While that is true*, the term "many" is subjective, and no matter how you view it does not equate to most or as proof that prey drive is a bad thing. Especially when the actual reality is that most of the dogs doing this form of work DO have prey drive in pretty decent amounts.
> 
> *Do they need it?* *No*, not if the other drives are there. But they have it. And that is not problematic with a balanced dog and good training.


If they do not need it, then it does not need to be there.

Go check out the tread about training dogs to be good with cats...
THAT'S what prey drive gives you. 

To me a GSD that mindlessly chases and kills a cat this is a part of his own "pack" is a very disturbing animal. 

I'll really need to get Cain to come in here and talk to you about her dogs.
Obviously because I am not a breeder or an LEO, I am not allowed to have an opinion, nor am I allowed to know anything about this breed. Pitty.

And as for my dog:

Because the dog is vigorous in his interaction with the helper does not indicate prey drive. At least not exclusively.

Mulder is low on prey, high on PLAY.
The fist time I brought him on the field to be assessed, they brought out the puppy rag and slapped it around a few times in front of him, trying to get him interested. He could care less. He was more interested in sniffing the grass than taking the bait.

Heaven forbid, the helper actually had to INTERACT with him to get his interest. Once he actually approached Mulder, OFFERED him the rag as a game, rather than just flipping it around in front of him, he bit. That’s how Mulder operates. He doesn’t hive a rat’s patook about getting the toy unless you are there WITH him in the game, not just dangling it around on the sidelines. 

Mulder thrives on interaction, as he is a social dog. Unless you show interest in him, his isn’t going to show interest in you or your games, regardless of how prey-inducing they are.

So thank you for your opinion on my dog, but I’ll stick to my own interpretation of him if you don’t mind.


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## Xeph

> If they do not need it, then it does not need to be there.


Um, as someone looking at the breed from the "SchH is not the be all end all of testing, k thx" side, this breed is called a ShepHERD.

Prey drive IS needed in this breed and a GSD WITHOUT prey drive is incorrect, IMO. Prey drive is absolutely necessary for a dog to herd sheep, as herding is modified prey drive. Can it be over the top insane with the dog being unable to control it?

No.

But it's necessary.


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## atravis

And as I said on the other thread, what good is a ShepHERD that chases the farmer's chickens, or kills his barn cats?

I think something may be getting lost in translation here. 
You say herding is "modified" prey drive

Well going by that, LOTS of drives are all just modified prey drive.
Ball drive, toy drive, even play drive... on some level it all goes back to some kind of prey/predator instinct.

But it is NOT prey drive as many define it today. Today, prey drive is mindless. "Chase, catch, chase, catch, chase, catch". It serves as nothing but a distraction to the dog, something that detracts from his REAL work. A dog working on prey isn't using his head, its almost exclusively instinctual.

These dogs were bred for their intelligence. Allowing instinct to preside over its actual _thinking_ capability is a crying shame.


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## Xeph

> But it is NOT prey drive as many define it today


The change in definition does not change what it REALLY is.


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## atravis

Alright, then herding drive is not "modified" prey drive.

It is herding drive, and nothing more.


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## atravis

Xeph said:


> Can it be over the top insane with the dog being unable to control it?
> 
> No.


Wait... it can't??

Amazing.


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## Xeph

Ugh, forget it.


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## onyx'girl

Let the breeder pick the pup that best suits you. After your_ long_ interview, they will be better to judge which will best match, than you who have only just met the pups. 
I wish you luck and if you ask any other questions in a newly started thread, I hope you don't get the controversy this one swayed to...though it was/is great reading!


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## Cain

Wildtim said:


> What a load of hooey.
> 
> In most dogs lacking prey the work isn't the motivation the fear of pain is what motivates them. Lacking prey motivators many trainers still resort to the ol' standby crank and yank to teach behavior and then since in the trained dog they don't use behavior reinforcers they claim the dog is working for them or motivated by the work. When in fact the motivating force behind the dogs behavior is fear of pain and the memory of the same.
> 
> 
> A dog working in aggression doesn't necessarily want to hurt anyone either, their goal is often to dominate not to damage. They don't care about the equipment enough to want to try to get through it it is simply a tool the know to use in the fight for dominance.


You're joking, right? :laugh: No?  Clearly you have never worked with an old world Czech dog, or you would not bother with posting this.
Old world Czechs and DDR dogs do not have HIGH prey drive - some, yes, but that is not what drives them, by any stretch. A prey driven dog bites the wrap, and runs off with it, happy that it's won the prize - a REAL dog grabs the wrap, jerks it off the decoy's arm, and goes after the man. And THAT, my friend has NOTHING to do with prey drive.


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## Cain

Xeph said:


> Um, as someone looking at the breed from the "SchH is not the be all end all of testing, k thx" side, this breed is called a ShepHERD.
> 
> Prey drive IS needed in this breed and a GSD WITHOUT prey drive is incorrect, IMO. Prey drive is absolutely necessary for a dog to herd sheep, as herding is modified prey drive. Can it be over the top insane with the dog being unable to control it?
> 
> No.
> 
> But it's necessary.


I have to seriously disagree with this - simply because the Schutzhund of today is nothing but a BUSINESS - which is why there are now the types of crazed, prey driven dogs that A. Travis is talking about. These dogs are not what Stephanitz envisioned when he developed the GSD - these dogs are very poor facsimiles of that. Look at the old world dogs - they were not the crazy, prey driven POS that are on the field today - which is why, in today's Schutzhund/business world, you don't see the old world blood dogs - you see these dogs doing real protection, and real street work. Why? Because they're not going to engage in something as meaningless to them as a bark and hold.
The only thing a K9 needs prey drive for is if they are detector or dual purpose dogs - then they work for the ball/toy/whatever turns them on when detecting.


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## onyx'girl

Cain and ATravis, if you sooo dislike the breed, why do you work with them? I only see negative replies and knocking down the GSD, it is very sad, to read over and over. Prey drive should be there and the dog should be able to control it, plain and simple-I believe that is what Xeph and WildTim were writing of, over the top and not knowing when to control is a detriment of course. Not sure where you train that you see so many "POS" but I see some great GSD's training around my neck of the woods...
Sorry Ada GSD, to veer off to the topic of this thread.
Maybe an Admin or mod could branch this conversation off to an new one so the OP can find the GSD of her dreams and not be so dissapointed in the breed she has chosen to get a puppy from.


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## Cain

onyx'girl said:


> Cain and ATravis, if you sooo dislike the breed, why do you work with them? I only see negative replies and knocking down the GSD, it is very sad, to read over and over. Prey drive should be there and the dog should be able to control it, plain and simple-I believe that is what Xeph and WildTim were writing of, over the top and not knowing when to control is a detriment of course. Not sure where you train that you see so many "POS" but I see some great GSD's training around my neck of the woods...
> Sorry Ada GSD, to veer off to the topic of this thread.
> Maybe an Admin or mod could branch this conversation off to an new one so the OP can find the GSD of her dreams and not be so dissapointed in the breed she has chosen to get a puppy from.


I LOVE the breed - as it was intended to be - and no one is "knocking down the breed" - if that's what you are getting out of the posts, then you are misreading. If where you are training you are seeing the prey driven dogs, then you are not seeing/working with Stephanitz' idea of what a GSD should be. Maybe you should go read his book to get an idea of what his intentions were, and how they are different than what you see today.


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## Cain

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Ummm........no. I meant earlier in the thread. Like I said this should be for a different thread not a thread where someone is looking for a breeder.


Hmmm....now who is off topic?  I appreciate you're editing your post to what it is now. If you would like to discuss drives, etc, and would like to do that in a different thread, then please, start one, and let me know.


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## onyx'girl

Cain said:


> I LOVE the breed - as it was intended to be - and no one is "knocking down the breed" - if that's what you are getting out of the posts, then you are misreading. If where you are training you are seeing the prey driven dogs, then you are not seeing/working with Stephanitz' idea of what a GSD should be. Maybe you should go read his book to get an idea of what his intentions were, and how they are different than what you see today.


Sorry again Ada_GSD to get off your topic, but I'd like to reply to Cain and then I'll be done.

Cain, I have the book , do you feel you are the only knowledgable person who posts??? You only come on this site when atravis beckons you to back her up. Maybe you could _help_ others with all your knowledge instead of the criticizing posts. 
I do see some wonderful dogs, they are still out there-of course they may be far and few between, but there _are_ dogs living today that Max would approve of, though the dogs of his day are gone~ we all know that....


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## AbbyK9

I think there may be a misunderstanding as to what prey drive actually is and should be. A lot of posters seem to assume that "having prey drive" means the dog will not be able to be trusted around small furry animals because its drives will take over and the dog will chase the chickens, kill the cat, herd the kids.

I have two dogs, a German Shepherd and a Belgian Malinois. My Malinois has very high prey drive and very high play drive and I have never ever had any issues with her drives getting out of control. We have two cats and she does not chase or bother them. (They do play together, however.) But she will chase a lure, for example.

Prey drive is very much needed for a dog to herd. It's natural to a dog to chase "prey animals" such as sheep which run when the dog approaches them, and a lot of what herding is initially with a new dog is taking that prey instinct (chasing and wanting to catch the sheep) and channeling it into teaching the dog to MOVE the sheep. It's not "herding drive" or "play drive", it's prey that they are using when they are first exposed to sheep and found to be suitable for herding.


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## Chris Wild

atravis said:


> If they do not need it, then it does not need to be there.
> 
> Go check out the tread about training dogs to be good with cats...
> THAT'S what prey drive gives you.
> 
> To me a GSD that mindlessly chases and kills a cat this is a part of his own "pack" is a very disturbing animal.


I agree with the later. However I absolutely do not agree that a dog with prey drive is automatically a menace to cats or anything else.

You seem to think that prey drive only comes in one form "extreme" and if a dog has prey, then it must be extreme and uncontrolled and unmanageable, not to mention the only drive the dog is capable fo exhibiting or utilizing. That is simply NOT true. 

I'll really need to get Cain to come in here and talk to you about her dogs.
Obviously because I am not a breeder or an LEO, I am not allowed to have an opinion, nor am I allowed to know anything about this breed. Pitty.



atravis said:


> Mulder is low on prey, high on PLAY.
> The fist time I brought him on the field to be assessed, they brought out the puppy rag and slapped it around a few times in front of him, trying to get him interested. He could care less. He was more interested in sniffing the grass than taking the bait.
> 
> Heaven forbid, the helper actually had to INTERACT with him to get his interest. Once he actually approached Mulder, OFFERED him the rag as a game, rather than just flipping it around in front of him, he bit. That’s how Mulder operates. He doesn’t hive a rat’s patook about getting the toy unless you are there WITH him in the game, not just dangling it around on the sidelines.


The treshold for activation and how the drive operates does not change what the drive is. What you are describing IS prey drive.

Just because a dog will not show interest in a rag flopping around on the ground, but will when used as a means of interaction doesn't change what the drive is. Many dogs need a sense of competition or interaction to engage their prey. But it is still prey.

There are dogs who won't chase balls or a rag on a string but will chase any true prey, like squirrels. Does that mean they don't have prey? That they are using a different drive after those squirrels? If a disinterest in balls or rags equals no prey drive, why are they chasing the squirrels? Because the squirrel is a treat that ignited defense? A challenging opponent that ignited social aggression and thus fight drive? Of course not, it's PREY. Those dogs have different thresholds and stimulus activators, but it is still prey.


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## Jason L

To get your dog to bite the rag at all, your helper is working with your dog's prey drive. 

When your dog is on the rag and fighting/playing with your helper and the helper is moving the rag around side to side, he's working with your dog's prey drive.

When your helper is working with your dog on his grip (whether it be maintaing a calm grip or regripping for a better one), he is working with your dog's prey drive. 

Puppy rag work is all prey work. Play is prey work.

The fact that your dog did not activate at first simply indicates that he has a high threshold. How long and vigorously he plays once he is "activated" will tell you how strong his prey drive is. Like Chris said, threshold and drive level are not the same thing. You can have low threshold dog (easy to activate) that is actually low drive (loses interest easily). You can have a high threshold dog but once activated does not quit (high drive). Or a high threshold, low drive dog = couch potato. Or a low threshold, high drive = to me that's what I think of when I think "drivey" dog.


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## Chris Wild

Cain said:


> The only thing a K9 needs prey drive for is if they are detector or dual purpose dogs - then they work for the ball/toy/whatever turns them on when detecting.


Ignoring all those dogs with prey drive successfully doing K9 work and thus proving it is not a detriment provided the other drives are in place as well, let me ask this.

When a dog is sent to apprehend a fleeing perp, what drive is that? It's certainly not defense, as defense requires perception of threat and for the dog's fight/flight response to be triggered. Someone running away is not a threat to anything, and of course is getting farther and farther from that stimulus threshold by the moment. It's certainly not fight drive, because that requires a challenging opponent to activate social aggression and the desire to engage and dominate. Again, someone running away is about as un-challenging as it can get. A dog working only in defense or fight would have absolutely no interest in someone running away as this situation does not stimulate either drive.

When a dog is sent to do a building search to locate a perpetrator, what drive is that? Again, it can't be defense or fight.

In both situations, once the perp is apprehended and the dog has engaged, the dog is going to have to switch from prey to one of the aggression drives (fight or defense) in order to follow through with the whole thing. At least if the perp puts up any sort of fight at all. But the actual apprehension is 100% prey.



Cain said:


> Because they're not going to engage in something as meaningless to them as a bark and hold.


This statement indicates a complete lack of understanding of the bark and hold. Not just from the practical standpoint, but mainly for the purpose of discussion here what drive the bark and hold requires and what it says about the dog. It is the bark and hold moreso than any of the biting exercises, that says the most about a dog's fight drive. Certainly it can be trained through prey in a "gimme the sleeve" manner, but the dogs who view it as such are blatantly obvious. A correct bark and hold is all about aggression, and really it is the only exercise in modern SchH that still emphasizes aggression. 

I would say there is something wrong with a dog who will not engage a neutral opponent or who can engage only with biting and has no other tools at his disposal, lacks the confidence to dominate in a manner other than biting, and lacks the ability to read the situation and modulate his aggressive response accordingly (thus not biting when lesser force will accomplish the task).


----------



## cliffson1

Jackie,
I'm proud of you....good post!!


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## Xeph

> Jackie,
> I'm proud of you....good post!!


Thank you 

And everybody but Atravis and Cain seemed to get my point. EXTREME prey is NOT correct (and certainly not what I want), but again, prey drive is *absolutely necessary* in this breed, and I believe it is a *travesty* if it is lacking in the dog.

Prey drive is NATURAL in any breed, be it a Shepherd or a Shih Tzu. Even if the level is different, it should be there. Dogs are predators, and I'd have to consider what's "wrong" with a dog if he lacks prey drive.

Even the roly poly Bulldog has prey drive (I saw a few at a dog show once, pouncing bugs, LOL). Gun dogs definitely have and need prey drive (higher than most GSDs IMO), but the majority do not try to kill everything in sight, and they are naturally soft mouthed.

And so, I stick by what I said.

GSD + Prey drive = correct



> The only thing a K9 needs prey drive for is if they are detector or dual purpose dogs


And this is another problem. People getting hung up on ONE side of these dogs. The protection side. K9's this, and schutzhund that.

Nothing wrong with either of those things, but this breed WAS bred for MORE than use as a military working dog.


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## Jason L

Xeph said:


> Prey drive is NATURAL in any breed, _be it a Shepherd or a Shih Tzu_. Even if the level is different, it should be there. Dogs are predators, and I'd have to consider what's "wrong" with a dog if he lacks prey drive.


Completely agree. 

First paragraph of Raiser's "Der Schutzhund": "Prey drive belongs in the functional realm of food acquistion behaviour. Actions such as chasing, scare-tactics, pointing, carrying or retrieving, tracking, trailing, and a typical shake-to-death that dogs do while playing with a rag - as well as pouncing upon, biting, and pulling down towards them (_like, say, your puppy tug so hard that he pulls you to the ground_)- fall into the category known as prey drive behaviour".

I would hate to see what a dog's life is like without prey drive ...


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## Chris Wild

I think the biggest problem here is some people seem to think prey drive only comes in one form: extreme, low threshold, all consuming, the dog goes after everything that moves, can't think, can't turn it off, and can't utilize any other drive (much less his brain), can only do protection as a game of tug, etc...

I would agree there ARE dogs like that. And they are more common now a days than they used to be, and sadly are often rewarded in some activities, including ones like modern SchH sport that started as a breed test and have gotten far away from that.

That type of drive is incorrect for a GSD, and useless for anything but a small subset of specialized working endeavors.

But it is completely erroneous to lump all dogs with prey drive, or even "high" prey drive, into that category.


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## atravis

Jason L,

And here again we have a completely different definition of "prey".

As said before, many drives can be considered some form of prey.
Ball drive, for instance, is very much rooted in prey. The dog chases the ball, the ball has become the prey object.

But ball drive, again, is not inclusive of what is standardly called "prey". 
JUST because an object is moving, does not mean the dog will chase it..

If I throw a ball for Mulder, he will likely go after it. If throw his stuffed elephant toy, he will look at me in the manner of "why would you do that?"

It has become specialized, honed into one object or type. He likes the ball, everything else take or leave. Is this rooted in prey behaviors? Sure. Is it PREY DRIVE as is advertised in dogs today? I say no. 

And as it stands, I never said Mulder had NO prey. Obviously, what would be the point of doing the drive building if it WASN'T there? I can't work with something that isn't there, and I would be foolish to try. If I knew Mulder, on some level, wouldn't play the game, I wouldn't waste his time or my own trying to force him. But then, as I also believe I said, Mulder is no K9. 

But again, you can talk of thresholds and what have you, while on some level it may go back to prey, it is still play behavior. A HUMANE BEING has to instigating the game, involved in the game, on the other side of the rag, for it to be of interest. I could tie a lure to the end of a pole and run it around all day... my CATS sure would love that, but Mulder? Not so much.


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## Vandal

I don't really like getting into discussions about what the definition of one drive is vs another. Years of watching people claiming they are working the dog in prey when every movement they make has nothing to do with it, ( or vice versa ), has taught me to almost ignore what people claim is going on unless I can see it. However, I think these set rules about how you work a dog at a certain age and how much of this or that drive you need to be successful, is part of the reason we have seen such a shift in the dogs. There is too much talk about it vs really learning to work the dogs using all of their drives. People have just gotten too good at the talk and have forgotten you need to walk as well. 

As for no prey. I don't think that is really totally possible as a few have already said. However, I do understand what some are saying about dogs who appear to " have too much" and other dogs who appear to have very little. Might not be a case of too much as it is a case of what the trainers are bringing out in the dogs but I have owned dogs, especially years ago, who simply did not show the same kind of work as the dogs now. One that I am thinking of as I write this, would have never worked for a ball and didn't want to work for food in training either. He was the best dog in protection I have ever owned and what he was doing was not " to win" the sleeve but he would certainly hold the sleeve when it was slipped. However, he never took his eyes off the helper. Any shaking of the sleeve while he held it was a response to what the helper was doing. If the helper faced him and looked at him hard, he would glare back at him and shake that sleeve hard once in response. I suppose you could say that the dog looked at the entire helper as the "prey item" not simply the sleeve. The attitude was also totally different from what we see so much of now. The dog was not thinking it was a game. When he had the arm, he pretty much thought he had a hold of the helper even when it was slipped. That was the dog mostly, because I don't recall having a really talented helper at the time. 

That is what has changed, it is not simply about the level of prey drive in the dog, it is something else that is not there. I believe that something is Social aggression. My dog was very attached to me and extremely protective in real life. I was the attraction for that dog as far as obedience went and he worked for praise. People nowadays are so caught up in doing things a certain way, they no longer believe that certain types of dogs existed. The idea that they did is ridiculed in order to promote the training method the person making these statements uses. Now the new catch word is "balance" but the dogs are not really balanced if you compare them to the dog I just talked about. They are still missing something and while the training is to blame in some cases, when I think of those old dogs, there really was not a way to train that protective, serious behavior out of them. They had social aggression. They would not look at the helper as a friend or a buddy to play with. Also, contrary to popular belief, this dog did extremely well in SchH protection without all of the "prey drive promotion" we see now. He was also very compliant and clean in the work. Most say serious dogs are dirty and don't want to out. I have never once found that to be true but this is where the training comes in I guess.


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## atravis

It is sad that there are not more of the dogs Vandal described alive and working today.

Even Mulder, as much as I love him, is not what she described. He comes closer to my ideal than many, even most, but he is not perfect. So few dogs are.


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## SchHGSD

While I'd love to say this is an interesting thread, I find it very disheartening from a working dog standpoint.

I think what this is fast becoming, is that the GSD is no longer considered a "working" dog and must, instead, be a "pet" and "no drive" dog. Golden Retriever in sheeps clothing.

That, and ignorant trainers who poo-poo prey drive as not a "tough ass, real dog" drive. After all, a dog who darts in and takes a quick grip, then lets go and backs away, tail tucked, to dart in and bite again is a REAL dog, right?


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## atravis

SchHGSD said:


> While I'd love to say this is an interesting thread, I find it very disheartening from a working dog standpoint.
> 
> I think what this is fast becoming, is that the GSD is no longer considered a "working" dog and must, instead, be a "pet" and "no drive" dog. Golden Retriever in sheeps clothing.


And why is not surprising that a Sch person would come in here and say that a dog without prey drive had NO drive at all?

Better slap some mayo on a slice a bread, cuz that's a full-on baloney sandwich. 



SchHGSD said:


> That, and ignorant trainers who poo-poo prey drive as not a "tough ass, real dog" drive. After all, a dog who darts in and takes a quick grip, then lets go and backs away, tail tucked, to dart in and bite again is a REAL dog, right?


Aside from that little BS "tail tuck" comment, YEAH, that is a real dog.

Whoever decided that running head-on into a threat, gripping strictly in one place and taking a lashing from a stick was "courage", obviously had a few screws loose.

In REAL protection work, you tell me one good advantage of staying in one place and getting beat on? Lotta good "courage" does the dog when the person being attacked pulls out a gun and shoots the dog in the head.

A dog that stays in one spot during a REAL attack was either trained to be extremely task specific, or is flat-out stupid. 

Any dog with half a brain for the work isn't going to sit around and be bludgeoned. First and foremost, during an attack, the dog should know what the **** a weapon looks like, and how to disable it. A dog switching grips to the weapon hand is FAR from the nerve-bag dog you seem to be describing. The FIRST priority in REAL protection is disable at all costs, until the handler can either escape, or take full control of the situation. A dog who's been shot dead while refusing to switch grips has done NEITHER. If the person begins to get the upper hand with the dog, then it only makes since to readjust and grip from a better angle. If he starts to kick, switch to the leg. DISABLE, at all costs. 

That's what a REAL dog does.


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## Samba

Having really nice prey drive does not make a dog "not serious" in any way. Of course others have explained it better above, in that it is what is missing rather than what is there, that might be the problem.


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## SchHGSD

atravis said:


> And why is not surprising that a Sch person would come in here and say that a dog without prey drive had NO drive at all?


No where did I say PREY drive, you're putting words in my mouth, I don't appreciate that.

It might be that I agree with you that the breed is in sorry shape with all the prey drive and prey drive work, but you're so defensive yourself you attack first and ask questions later.


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## Vandal

Actually, a dog who goes in, bites ...lets go, goes to another spot and so on, is not showing confidence, quite the opposite actually. Also, the importance of the full grip concerns control. I can assure you that a full HARD bite from a dog who will escalate the fight in order to control a "bad guy" is much more effective than one who is going in and taking pieces. That is not appropriate for a herding dog, SchH dog or a police dog to behave that way.


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## lhczth

Excellent, Anne.


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## Jason L

I agree with Anne. I'm learning bite suit work (with my club and a nearby club) and have been regularly decoying for a few k9s and so far everyone (TD, the K9 handlers) have told me once the dog gets on the suit, a strong, confident dog will stay with his initial bite. A dog that starts to rebite and then gradually working his way down the decoy's hand is showing signs of insecurity, that he really does not want to stay in the fight (hand and ankle being the "easiest" places for the dog to bite without risking bodily harm to himself ... farthest away from the decoy)


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## cliffson1

I am not going to weigh in on this because the term "prey" is such a moving target. But in reading the posts it is very easy to see the differences in people that handle dogs vs them that train dogs. 
Also, I am not going to pass judgement on Sch, but I would like somebody to explain to me why in Germany where there are more Sch dogs than anywhere in the world, some of their K9 police academies are moving to Malinois and away from German Shepherds. This seems absurd if Sch is real work.


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## Vandal

To add to what Jason said. The best dogs I have worked in protection, when they are put on the suit the first time, will bite very high on the body and the helpers are consistently "bruised" by those really good, serious and confident dogs. The less confident dogs go low.


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## atravis

SchGSD-
When you follow your statements up with "That, and ignorant trainers who poo-poo prey drive as not a "tough ass, real dog" drive", what exactly am I supposed to think? Considering my side in this debate from the beginning has been against prey.

Vandal-

Not for herding or Sch dogs, but absolutely yes for a K9 or PPD.

Here's a little example of a dog that tries to take on a perp head-on (skip ahead to about 1:05)






Great way to get a dead dog.
Maybe it would have been adventitious to send the dog in from behind? To grab the arm holding the gun? Na, not courageous enough. Lets send him in head-long and get him killed. Makes for much bigger tears at his funeral when we speak of how "courageous" he was in the line of duty.


Now, a dog switching to the weapon hand:






Provided a video of a Mal probably isn't helping my case any in the prey department, but does that look like an under-confident dog to you?
He approached from the side and took the weapon hand. When the decoy SWITCHED hands, the dog then readjusted to, once again, take the weapon hand.

Switching to the object of attack is fundamental in protection training. If the dog takes a grip that leaves him exposed, of COURSE he should switch
to a better angle. If the attacker pulls out a weapon, of COURSE he should attempt to disable it first. Why on earth would he just sit there and 
take the beating, when doing so potentially leaves both his handler and himself at risk? If the perp pulls out a gun and starts shooting, even if its
just out of mania and not directly at the dog, the dog is failing to protect anyone. The very nature of protection is to, ya know, actually protect. 
Just acting "courageous" is of absolutely no use if the dog isn't fulfilling its primary goal. A person high on meth or crack isn't going to be thinking or acting like a normal human being who's just had a dog sent out on him. Just biting and holding isn't necessarily going to stop him, and people in such an "extreme" state of mind very well could have the strength to pull out a weapon and blast the dog to kingdom come.


And hey, if it helps, think of it this way:
You engage in hand-to-hand combat with someone. Fighting them directly with all your strength is only going to expend your energy quicker. Taking a jab, ducking out your opponent's hits, then coming back in for another jab will save you energy, while simultaneously DRAINING your opponent's (who IS fighting head-on with all his strength). Now lets say your opponent pulls out a jackknife. Are you going to run at him and grab the arm that ISN'T holding the weapon? Or, if you already have hold of him, are you just going to stand in one place so he can stab you? Or are you going to let go of the arm you DO have, and attempt to grab that knife away from him?

Thank you, but I'd rather have the "nervy" dog that switches to the source of the attack, rather than holding onto a useless grip that's going to get 
him and potentially others killed.


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## Jason L

If you bite a decoy high and on the inside, there is no need to re-bite or worry about the "weapon" hand


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## atravis

Try telling that to a dog taking on a cracked-out street thug wielding a gun/knife.

Where the dog hits, unless its someplace absurd like on the face, isn't necessarily going to stop him from gutting that dog. All I see in that picture is a dog with a HUGE side exposure.


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## onyx'girl

And you have bruises to prove it, right Jason?!


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## Jason L

That's with the suit. Imagine what the damage would be like on a live bite. I say if the dog is strong enough to come straight at you and bite like that, he has got the fight won.


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## atravis

I would just like to add, that the most confident person in the world isn't necessarily a smart or good fighter. 

I bet George Custer was pretty confident when he led his troops into Little Bighorn.
Look how that turned out.

Edit-
And AGAIN, a person doped up on drugs isn't necessarily going to be feeling that bite, no matter how strong it is.


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## Vandal

I am talking about the basic dog here, not trained behavior. Of course you can train to switch hands however, if that guy in the second video, (which needs some banjo music BTW), had a gun , the dog would have been shot just like the other dogs you showed in the first one. So, not sure what you were trying to prove there with that part of it.


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## atravis

Are we talking about the basic dog here? No one told me about this. We were just talking about dogs in scenarios, not to what level of training they were at. 

Maybe, maybe not. The dog should always aim for the weapon first and foremost. 
If he misses the weapon, and is given an opportunity to correct, he should. 

Trying to correct at least gives him a fighting chance.
NOT correcting is practically a guaranteed dead sentence.


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## codmaster

Vandal said:


> Actually, a dog who goes in, bites ...lets go, goes to another spot and so on, is not showing confidence, quite the opposite actually. Also, the importance of the full grip concerns control. I can assure you that a full HARD bite from a dog who will escalate the fight in order to control a "bad guy" is much more effective than one who is going in and taking pieces. That is not appropriate for a herding dog, SchH dog or a police dog to behave that way.


I would think that either method could be effective fighting for a dog. Either one good hard bite and hold on (sort of like a pit) or one who goes in bites and even slashes and then does it again and again.

Might have nothing to do with courage - just a fighting style sort of like boxers have different styles. 

"Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" OR "move forward slowly and thro haymakers"


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## codmaster

Chris Wild said:


> Baloney.
> 
> Prey drive is absolutely correct for this breed. GSD's *should* have prey drive. It should not be the only drive (and certainly not in protection) but it should not be lacking either.
> 
> 
> 
> Prey is not a detriment to real protection work. It being the *only* drive of which the dog is capable, or an all consuming drive, or the only one accessed in training IS. But there is a big difference there.
> ..........And while protection is an important job for a GSD, and every GSD should have the ability to protect, it is not the end all and be all of GSD-dom. There are many other jobs the breed does and is supposed to be able to do, that DO require prey drive. Detector and search work being amongst those. Defense and fight aren't going to get you very far in sniffing out drugs and explosives or finding lost people in the woods.


 
Besides, without prey drive, my GSD might not want to play fetch with me!


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## Samba

I think the style of attack could very well reflect basic confidence and courage. For dogs anyway, as they don't study different styles... like Crouching Tiger, Drunken Monkey, Splashing Hands etc.


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## Vandal

Your Mal did not aim for the weapon, he bit the guy in the back of his shoulder and it just so happened the guy was holding the stick with the hand that is attached to that arm/shoulder. The guy was turned away when the dog bit. The dog also hung on with a hard and full bite, until that weapon was switched to the other hand whereupon, he still did not switch hands UNTIL that hand moved to attack the dog. 
The Mal did not go in, then let go, then go back into a different area. He responded to the threat which is appropriate. Dogs who are weaker will not stay on the bite, they will move to a place that is less threatening and there is no way to train that weakness out of the dog. I know plenty of SchH dogs who switch to a suit very quickly and can inflict just as much damage as your example. 
What you are missing is what SchH tests in the dog. It is not as much about that kind of work or style of fighting as it is about WHO THE DOG IS. Like what i talked about earlier concerning social aggression. 
People who want to compare detail to detail about the work really show more ignorance than they realize. That is what you are doing here. I will not argue the Mal is a good dog but you are not making the connection that I tried to explain.


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## Zoeys mom

Zoe has lion style- crouch wait, watch, attack- I need to get a video of it it's precious. IMO prey drive has nothing to do with whether or not you can train the dog to behave with other animals in the house. There's always going to be that one loose cannon, but for the most part animals raised together and corrected tolerate each other at least in my experience whether or not they can pounce a squirrel outside or not Zoe kills bees, flies, a really cute baby bunny, tries to catch crows and squirrels; but is gentle with pups, cats, and other dogs. Training can trump prey drive though and don't all breeds have prey drive to some degree? I mean when dogs were wild animals they did eat


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## codmaster

atravis said:


> ....................
> Whoever decided that running head-on into a threat, gripping strictly in one place and taking a lashing from a stick was "courage", obviously had a few screws loose.
> 
> In REAL protection work, you tell me one good advantage of staying in one place and getting beat on? Lotta good "courage" does the dog when the person being attacked pulls out a gun and shoots the dog in the head.
> 
> A dog that stays in one spot during a REAL attack was either trained to be extremely task specific, or is flat-out stupid.
> 
> Any dog with half a brain for the work isn't going to sit around and be bludgeoned. First and foremost, during an attack, the dog should know what the **** a weapon looks like, and how to disable it. A dog switching grips to the weapon hand is FAR from the nerve-bag dog you seem to be describing. The FIRST priority in REAL protection is disable at all costs, until the handler can either escape, or take full control of the situation. A dog who's been shot dead while refusing to switch grips has done NEITHER. If the person begins to get the upper hand with the dog, then it only makes since to readjust and grip from a better angle. If he starts to kick, switch to the leg. DISABLE, at all costs.
> That's what a REAL dog does.


Reminds me of what my Sch trainer from many years ago, when I was training in Brooklyn, NY, told me. BTW, he was also the head trainer for the NYC police dogs. He said he trains Sch dogs to grab the sleeve and only the sleeve, whereas he trains a police dog to grab ANYTHING that they can grab - otherwise he said that you would have a LOT of dead police dogs!

That sounds very reasonable to me. Different jobs and different training! I always wondered if you could ever have a dog who could both!


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## Samba

The point is not to mistake training for basic character and the behaviors that reveal that character. I often hear a lot of this talk about the finesse of police training vs schutzhund dogs... on and on. I don't hear it from the accomplished police dog trainers that I know because, well, they understand the reality of the dogs and the various tests. 




codmaster said:


> I always wondered if you could ever have a dog who could both!


Do you mean do both patrol work and schutzhund?


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## atravis

Vandal said:


> He responded to the threat which is appropriate


Is this not what I've been saying all along?
If the dog has a good bite, then keep it.
My argument was, and is, that if the dog takes a crap bite that leaves him exposed, he should not keep it just for the sake of pleasing the "courage" crowd. IF the opponent produces a weapon, the dog should then target the weapon. Whether or not that Mal did exactly that is irrelevant... its what SHOULD be done.



Vandal said:


> What you are missing is what SchH tests in the dog. It is not as much about that kind of work or style of fighting as it is about WHO THE DOG IS. Like what i talked about earlier concerning social aggression.
> People who want to compare detail to detail about the work really show more ignorance than they realize. That is what you are doing here. I will not argue the Mal is a good dog but you are not making the connection that I tried to explain.


I was defending the "in/out" comment as it pertains to _protection_ dogs. Never did I try to do a side by side comparison with Sch, nor did I inherently KNOCK Sch with anything that I said. 

Comparing real protection to Sch is like comparing apples to grapes. Sure they are both fruit, and both vaguely round in shape, but they are still a million miles apart from each other. Why even bother?

I have nothing against Sch for what it is. 
A sport. A test of character to some degree, albeit an often vague one these days. 

Honestly, I like Schutzhund. Me and my dog have a good time going to club and being around other dog people (even if we have different ideals of what a dog should be).

What I do not like is what schutzhund, AS a sport that still tries to pass itself off as something more, is doing to this breed.
And that's all I'll say on that.


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## Vandal

Frankly it was not clear what you were saying. First there was the prey drive denial theory and then a bunch of other stuff from people who have no idea about protection training. Can't say I read all you said without distractions. The mal is a nice dog .


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## Xeph

I thought I was the only one that felt she wasn't making sense.


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## atravis

What exactly did I make hard to understand?

I said my piece about prey, and that was that.

Then, after hearing a comment I disagreed with about protection work, I spoke on that. 

Seems simple enough to me.


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## codmaster

Samba said:


> The point is not to mistake training for basic character and the behaviors that reveal that character. I often hear a lot of this talk about the finesse of police training vs schutzhund dogs... on and on. I don't hear it from the accomplished police dog trainers that I know because, well, they understand the reality of the dogs and the various tests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean do both patrol work and schutzhund?


 Yes!


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## lhczth

Yes, there are dogs that can do both. There are dogs that can do both PPD and SchH also.


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## R3C0NWARR10R

Thought I might chime in a little.

All dogs have prey drive period. It is stronger in some and not so much in others. ALL forms of protection work rather it be PPS or a K9 unit, will use prey drive. Do they need a massive amount of prey drive to do well in sport or work? No they do not. When training for either do they utilize the prey drive. Yes they do. The dogs running to attack a perp or whoever is creating the threat is a mix of prey and defense drives. Esentially creating a very aggressive attack. I do believe that dogs with higher prey drives are easier to train than dogs that have a lower drive. I do not feel that a high drive dog would be suited for all of the different types of work they may encounter.

A well trained police dog WILL guard (bark and hold SCH) when told. If they do not the handler has not kept up with the dogs training. 

Can dogs be taught what a weapon looks like? Only some as just about anything can be used as a weapon. Dogs that are taught in this manner are mainly taught to go after the part of the body that is being the most aggressive. In the video that was provided the dog attacks the shoulder area of the individual first and trys to stop the threat by taking the person down. When it does not work and the helper brings the hand over to hit the dog the dog defends itself by grabbing what it percieved as a threat to itself. 

Schutzhund is a breed test to test that the dogs have the BASICS needed to perform the working duties. The higher the tittle the dog can accomplish the more likley that their offspring will be suitable for the work environment. The tests will show the mix of drives and how well the dog handles them. The courage test is to show that the dog will not back down from a fight/threat, regardless of it being silly that the dog stands there and takes a beating. The dog does not need to attack in the way of the PPS video to prove that they could or that their offspring will have the genetics to work.


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## Vandal

I really can't stand the thought of reading through most of the stuff written in this thread just so I can keep arguing with you. You say you do SchH, with who and how you do it, I don't know. I think maybe you should do more and maybe learn helper work as well. That will help you understand this stuff more clearly. 
You said plenty of incorrect things in this thread. However, I can agree and also do not like what has become of the dogs and of SchH, so we can agree there. I said what I meant, you can read it and believe what I said or not. Samba made a few comments that clarified what I meant as well.


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## trudy

prey drive is something they are born with, all to different levels and training/life either encourages or pushes it down. A dog who is leading the blind, helping the handicapped is trained to do the job tehn use their drives for fun and relaxation. The sheep dog herding teh flock doesn't chase the individuals but controls the flock moving them as a group or holding them safely somewhere, but when they are no longer working they may kill a rabbit or squirrel. These dogs still have the drives but are taught to control them until the job is done, then they get to have fun and let loose. 

For those that think German Shepherds herd like border collies running the sheep through gates and narrow spots have never seen one work. These dogs are living, moving fences, they keep the sheep from straying from a specific area the herder has defined. They may move the flock as a whole at the beginning and end but mostly are only correcting a few that forget and stray out of the boundary. The dog self stops when the sheep is back in the correct area. 
And how do you train a beginner dog??? It's called instinct. Ty and his brother both did it the first day introduced to them. Both are ball nuts, chase squirrels and frogs and birds but i would not say high prey drive, they don't seem ever out of control, but very into chasing. That to me is correct prey drive, loving chase but always able to call off or respond to a command


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## onyx'girl

Onyx has great herding instinct, her prey drive is ok, not over the top.
She has killed some of our chickens(I was not home to witness or stop it, she got into the fenced in area when she was under a yr old) but is always in herding mode
She has that border collie stare downpat(you can see it in my avatar) and circles often. I think this is correct behavior for a GSD, but she may border on obsessive with it. 
The conversation on prey/herding is interesting.


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## Liesje

I know very little about herding but when I tested my dogs (different people, different times) they said it's not JUST about whether a dog will fixate or give chase, but how "heady" the dog is - are they still thinking clearly enough to predict the sheep's movement? Kenya has less prey drive than Nikon but got a very good evaluation at her herding test (Jane was there and filmed it for me, so I was able to pay more attention to the judge than my dog and watch the dog on playback). The judge spend nearly half an hour with her in the pen and told me Kenya is thoughtful, not out of control, watches and predicts the sheep's movement, is not just fixating and chasing them down or reacting to them, moves right as naturally as she moves left (a problem with "obedience" dogs). In that aspect I think it's similar to protection. Of course prey drive is useful but to the extreme, not so much. The dog must be able to think and use their other drives and instincts too, not just be fixated and losing their mind in extreme prey drive.


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## debbiebrown

i would think this thread all comes down to having the "balance of all drives" the ability to think clearly in any situation.......unfortunately as was said a few times, this breed is failing in that department, not sure what it would take to see more balance in this breed.............???i do see the prey drive to the extreme more often than not.........


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## cliffson1

When you have trained both police/military dogs and Sch dogs it is not hard to discern the dogs that can do either of these things and also the dogs that can do both. Afterall, it only a matter of training if the dog has the basics. Likewise you can tell the people who are regurgitating something they heard or read because the practical application comes with understanding, while the people whole read or were told something really don't understand the subject matter other than on the surface.
A balanced dog will work in prey and defense drives in both police and sch work IF they are trained that way and they have the solid mental characteristics. Dogs are taught how to channel drives from prey to defense and back to prey in developing strong working dogs in both Sch and police.
While it is true that many sport dogs of today are unbalanced toward prey drives, much of that has to do with training, developing, and imprinting that creates the imbalance. I have seen many Sch trainers that don't know how to work a dog in defense, and many police trainers that don't know how to strenthen the prey aspect. Both are needed for a good well balanced dog in either sport or work. 
Somebody earlier in the thread spoke about how dogs with rock solid nerves can handle their drives and have them channeled productively with proper training. That is the essence of the breed from a working perspective. NERVES!!! Everybody has an opinion, but everybody doesn't have an educated opinion.


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## Jessiewessie99

I don't know much about prey drive, but Molly has awesome ball drive!!lol


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## Fast

Vandal said:


> . You say you do SchH, with who and how you do it, I don't know.


This is why I hate the term "do schutzhund" Any yahoo with a dog and a guy willing to jump around in front of that dog and say they "do schutzhund". In actuality they are hiding behind the schutzhund brand so they can justify some crazy training.

The only people that can truthfully say that they "do schutzhund" are those that have a titled dog, otherwise they are "training for schutzhund"...maybe.


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## DangerousBeauty

The bunnies in my yard think Baron has prey drive. lol. Although since he has never (thankfully!) caught one maybe it isn't THAT strong of a drive.


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## atravis

No, you're so right.

I'm just another know-nothing idiot who joined a forum to spew my uneducated crap because I just hate these dogs so much, and am out to set a bad name for them. Yep, there's my motives right there. _Now you know._

So sorry I wasted everyone's time. Wont happen again.


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## Fast

atravis said:


> So sorry I wasted everyone's time. Wont happen again.


Translation


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## Jessiewessie99

Fast said:


> Translation
> 
> YouTube - Screw you guys i'm going home 2


I think we all knew what she meant.


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## debbiebrown

you can cover up a mulitude of sins with the right training, but that doesn't change the genetic makeup, and if you have an unbalanced dog to begin with that flaw will rear its head periodically., anyone who has had a genetically unbalanced dog certainly knows what i'm saying........i don't think any trait in extreme is neccesarilly a good thing, if you have a combo of extreme prey drive and a nerve bag thats a real screwed up combo...................when the hard wiring is messed up there is no way you can train total balance and trust that dog 100%,


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## Xeph

> I think we all knew what she meant.


 Of course we did, but it was a good time for a joke


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## Jax08

And who doesn't like Cartman? :rofl:


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## LaRen616

Jax08 said:


> And who doesn't like Carmen? :rofl:


I think his name is Cartman??? 

:rofl:


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## Xeph

> _Reason: So sorry for multi-tasking and spelling his name wrong.. _


Whatevah! I do wha' I want!


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## LaRen616

Xeph said:


> Whatevah! I do wha' I want!


HAHAHAHA I always say that!!!

I tell my mom all the time " I do what I want."

Now she says it to my sister and me!


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## Guest

With prey drive, training is almost impossible. Guardian dogs (Great Pyrenees, Maremma, etc.) have defense without prey. They are great for what they do, what are never good at OB and are hard to train to do anything other than what they want -- which is to guard those they see fit in the way they see fit.

So unless you want a personal protection dog who never leaves home -- or at least never leaves your side -- you need prey drive.


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