# Looking for black or bi-color in Tri-State area.



## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Hello all. Looking to find a "true" black or bi-color GSD puppy from reputable breeder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
D/C


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

What does "true" mean to you?
And welcome to the forum


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Meaning that the Embark genetic test certifies the puppy is 100% GSD. Not a mix.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Tri-State Area??? There are many that are Tri-State areas...


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I doubt a reputable breeder will have Embark tests done on their puppies. They already know that they are GSDs. Black is a common color and bi-color is not that uncommon in working lines.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Black and bi-colors are common in American show lines too.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Actually, the most common GSD color is sable, having to do with a homologous allele. Black short hair is not common, and many bi-color may appear black at birth.I believe black are mostly Eastern European working line- not show line. A breeder, to satisfy a customer, would most certainly perform the Embark testing, just as testing for Hip and Elbow dysplasia. Especially, if the breeder expects to command huge prices for these magnificent animals.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

BTW: for clarification Tri-State area in my corner of the world, is NY, NJ, $ Conn.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

D/C said:


> Actually, the most common GSD color is sable, having to do with a homologous allele. Black short hair is not common, and many bi-color may appear black at birth.I believe black are mostly Eastern European working line- not show line. A breeder, to satisfy a customer, would most certainly perform the Embark testing, just as testing for Hip and Elbow dysplasia. Especially, if the breeder expects to command huge prices for these magnificent animals.


I think there’s some misunderstandings here. Sable is the dominant color and most common color in working lines. The most common line in the world is WGSL, which is almost exclusively black and tan. Most American show lines are also black and tan. Black and Tan is the most common color in the breed. Black is a common working line color in working lines. A lot of the more popular studs carry it. A breeder in America having hips, elbows, and embark testing done on the parents is common. If you mean having that on the puppies, that’s just not a realistic expectation. Beyond color, the temperament you are looking for and the purpose of the dog as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No breeder is going to test a litter of puppies with Embark. They are going to test the parents and they will xray the parents. They have the parents pedigrees. They don't need to test to see if the puppies are 100%. They will give you a contract for hips, elbows and other genetic diseases. But they aren't going to send the whole litter into Embark and if you need that, then obviously you don't trust the breeder and you shouldn't be buying from them. 

I have no idea where you are pulling your information from but it's just not factual. Black is NOT "mostly Eastern European working line". Black and bi-color is common in both working lines-all working lines (WGWL, DDR, Czech) and American show lines. Sable is not the "prevalent". It's the most dominant color. Which means if a dog has the aw gene - they will be genetically sable. My black and tan carries black as does my sable. If either were bred to another dog that carried black, or was black itself, they would produce black puppies. 

You need to figure out what you need in temperament and drives before you worry about color. I find your demands over the top and uneducated so I would not recommend you to any breeders I know. I would suggest you find clubs in the area (AKC and working). Go meet the dogs, watch them work and the breeders. There are plenty with many good breeders.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

As a breeder, we know what colours our dogs can produce. Black is recessive so both parents must carry it to produce black so if a puppy is born black and the parents do not carry black, we know it will be b&t (bi-colour) - as Jax08 stated, there is no need to DNA test for colour.
Also, I myself would never sell a puppy based on colour as it's just about the least important thing I look at when evaluating a dog. Good pigment yes, but actual colour - no.
I bought my foundation bitch and didn't even know what colour she was until I took her out of the crate at the airport. I got the right dog and that was all that mattered.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Jax08, with all do respect, unless YOU are a licensed Vet, or work in genetic testing labs, you miss the point of dominant and recessive alleles. While you post a different opinion, I dare say you are not entitled to be rude and disagreeable.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You are new here and haven’t taken the time to understand this forum or appreciate the knowledge our members have on breeders and genetics. Your request isn’t something you are going to get an answer to that you like or want. Why would a breeder genetic test their own lines? They know what they have. Given your demands, most reputable breeders would pass on selling you a dog. I will be surprised if you get any breeder recommendations.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

I find the reluctance of any "breeder" to be willing - at the buyers expense, NOT to perform testing suspicious. There are quite a few "breeders" on the internet that hold themselves out to the general public as "reputable". Unfortunately, there are too many "backyard/ puppy mill breeders advertising GSD puppies for sale! Some even mix breeds, hoping no one will notice.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

My potential breeding female is Embark tested - none of my other dogs have been because it wasn't a 'thing' before they were bred. I know my dog carries black and is sable. When (if) I breed her, I will know what colour the male is and what he carries. I will not have to test any puppy produced to make sure of their colour.... If a buyer wants to test the puppy, they are welcome to it - after they purchase the puppy they can do all the health testing they want. 
Not sure I understand the rest of your post.... Yes, there are a lot of crappy breeders out there and they certainly do think they are reputable - but it takes seconds to see through their sales pitch. DNA testing to make sure the puppy is the colour they say it is should be the least of your worries.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

That is exactly why buyers need to research breeders before buying a puppy. The good ones are well known within the dog community. A search of this forum will reveal their names, but I doubt anyone posting here will give them in this thread because of the way it was presented.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Yes, "Caveat emptor" (buyer beware) . I can not imagine a list of of reputable breeder being posted either! But not for the reason suggested!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

D/C said:


> Hello all. Looking to find a "true" black or bi-color GSD puppy from reputable breeder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> D/C


there is a difference between “true, black or bi-color GSD” and “true black or bi-color GSD”…. i believe some of the confusion in this thread has to do with how one reads this portion of your original post. but then you clarified…


D/C said:


> Meaning that the Embark genetic test certifies the puppy is 100% GSD. Not a mix.


so basically you’re just looking for a reputable breeder that produces black or bi-color GSD. to specify on this board that it be purebred is somewhat irrelevant.

honestly, if someone has to use Embark to prove that their dog is purebred…. that’s not even a breeder i’d consider.

two sites to compare…






Home | Wildhaus Kennels







www.wildhauskennels.com




&


https://puppies.smallplan.com/



would you really choose the latter because they have Embark tests done? no health screenings no titles no registration or pedigrees but by golly Max chased off a couple coyotes all by himself. come on…


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Embark does not prove a dog is purebred.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Correct! "Embark's DNA Test for Purebred Dogs-is also the only dog DNA test on the market that gives owners one of the most crucial canine health metrics available: Embark's Genetic Diversity Score. Unlike pedigree-based calculations or less advanced genetic diversity assessments, Embark's score evaluates the actual stretches of DNA in your dog's genome to *compute an accurate measure of inbreeding*, giving owners the most predictive score possible for determining future health and longevity."
Developed by veterinarians and geneticists, the kit offers purebred owners unique, actionable health information that will help determine diagnostic, monitoring, and treatment plans that can easily be shared with a vet. Embark has found that over 50% of tested dogs are either at risk for, or a carrier of, genetic health risks.
Hence, why "reputable breeders' are reluctant to do this testing...Caveat Emptor!


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I give up - I have no idea what you are trying to say.... 
First you talk about "true" colour, then purebred and now genetic health testing 
Reputable breeders are not reluctant to do any testing - that's what makes them reputable.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Looking at line breeding is simple. Just check the pedigree. If you don't trust a breeder to provide an accurate pedigree, I see no desire to work with that breeder.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Thank you David! Sound advice!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Embark does not prove a dog is purebred.





D/C said:


> *Correct!* "Embark's DNA Test for Purebred Dogs-is also the only dog DNA test on the market that gives owners one of the most crucial canine health metrics available: Embark's Genetic Diversity Score. Unlike pedigree-based calculations or less advanced genetic diversity assessments, Embark's score evaluates the actual stretches of DNA in your dog's genome to *compute an accurate measure of inbreeding*, giving owners the most predictive score possible for determining future health and longevity."
> Developed by veterinarians and geneticists, the kit offers purebred owners unique, actionable health information that will help determine diagnostic, monitoring, and treatment plans that can easily be shared with a vet. Embark has found that over 50% of tested dogs are either at risk for, or a carrier of, genetic health risks.
> Hence, why "reputable breeders' are reluctant to do this testing...Caveat Emptor!


but….


D/C said:


> Meaning that the Embark genetic test certifies the puppy is 100% GSD. Not a mix.


🤔
i’m gonna bow out now too.
i’m glad david was able to understand and provide you sound advice, lol….
anyway, i moved your thread from introductions to choosing a breeder days ago - for recommendations of actual kennels, i’d browse that section.
after 20+ replies, we still don’t know what you’re looking for in a dog besides it’s color.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

I'm sorry, I'm confused now. Is it not a given on this site, that every GSD owner wasn't first and foremost a Healthy & Balanced dog? Or is this the wrong forum? With that said, there is nothing left to the selection other than color.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

D/C said:


> I'm sorry, I'm confused now. Is it not a given on this site, that every GSD owner wasn't first and foremost a Healthy & Balanced dog? Or is this the wrong forum? With that said, there is nothing left to the selection other than color.


No, i’m not going to assumed that anyone is looking for the same type of dog that i prefer or that my experience, lifestyle or goals warrant.
Example:








Working Line Breeder in South East


Good evening. I am looking for a good working line breeder in the Southeast. I am wanting a medium drive working line. My dad was a breeder/trainer when I was growing up. More recently I have had two Malinios, but now that they have passed away I am looking to return to WLGSD. I haven't...




www.germanshepherds.com




Thorough introductory post yielded kennel recommendations within 13 posts.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

D/C said:


> I'm sorry, I'm confused now. Is it not a given on this site, that every GSD owner wasn't first and foremost a Healthy & Balanced dog? Or is this the wrong forum? With that said, there is nothing left to the selection other than color.



None of us are vets or geneticists so I think this may indeed be the wrong forum.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm amazed there are so many posts and so little communication here. No one seems to understand what the other is saying, including me.

What do you mean by balanced? I know my definition, but it might not be the same as yours.

What one person wants in a pet dog may be just the opposite of what someone else wants in a dog for competition or search and rescue.

What purpose will the dog have in your life? Will he have a daily job like a police K9 or do you want more of a couch potato type dog? Do you want a personal protection dog or a dog who loves everyone? Are you wanting a dog that needs hours of heavy exercise every day, no matter the weather or circumstances, or do you want a more laid back kind of dog? 

GSDs are not all cut from the same mold and there is a wide variety of types and personalities.

Those are just a few questions and useful things that people need answers to in order to help you find the type of dog you are looking for.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Please, with all do respect. It seems you all are making *my simple request* way too complicated. If you do not know of any specific breeders that cater to litters that predominantly have black/bi-color, GSD's that ok. I'm not asking you to find the type of dog! Just a breeder.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Sorry, but you still don't seem to understand. Good breeders breed for type, not color. 

How can anyone recommend any breeder if they don't know the type of dog you want? What good is knowing they have a black pup available if it's been bred to be a man eater and you want a dog for kids?


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

OMG! I see this is an effort in futility, with the best intentions.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

That's one thing we can all probably agree on, so I'm out.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

D/C said:


> OMG! I see this is an effort in futility, with the best intentions.


Let's assume people do know of breeders producing these colors, after color what are you looking for in a GSD? What do plan to do with the dog or want the dog for?

Chill in the house?
Compete in IPO?
Train for search and rescue?


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

If all you want is a black dog, get a Lab. Problem solved.😊


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

D/C said:


> I'm sorry, I'm confused now. Is it not a given on this site, that every GSD owner wasn't first and foremost a Healthy & Balanced dog? Or is this the wrong forum? With that said, there is nothing left to the selection other than color.


There is a huge variation in temperament, drive and energy across the breed. A dog that has what it takes to be a great patrol dog doesn't usually have the same makeup as a family dog suited for a new owner. I'm going to suggest you go to clubs and events and meet owners, dogs and trainers. Talk to them about their dogs and find out what you like. That will give you a great place to start looking for the right dog for your family.

I know of a litter on the ground that has blacks in it that I wouldn't ever place in a pet home. 

What everyone is suggesting is that you describe the temperament of dog you are looking for, which is paramount, so they can suggest breeders. You can find a particular coat from there.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

Simply put. I believe all GSD are trainable in a variety of circumstances, I expect a healthy-genetic puppy. I prefer a (balanced) puppy, that is already exposed to a variety of common sights and sounds. A puppy that is not skiddish or submissive. A puppy, that should I choose, can compete in increasing levels of obedience training & competition and just as easily switch to the stereotype active family dog.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Sent PM!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

gsdsteve said:


> Sent PM!


it’s about time 😅


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Fodder said:


> it’s about time 😅


Smarmy.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

FODDER... At the risk of being a casualty of your "cancel culture", I suggest your screen name is quite apropos, inferior & readily available common material. You bloviate in an annoying way as if you are very important. Maybe in your little circle, you are. I imagine not in the real world.
*PS: A special thank you to GSDSTEVE, for going the extra mile and providing actionable material. *


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

gsdsteve said:


> Smarmy.


quite the opposite really.
my bad.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

D/C said:


> Simply put. I believe all GSD are trainable in a variety of circumstances, I expect a healthy-genetic puppy. I prefer a (balanced) puppy, that is already exposed to a variety of common sights and sounds. A puppy that is not skiddish or submissive. A puppy, that should I choose, can compete in increasing levels of obedience training & competition and just as easily switch to the stereotype active family dog.


You should have led with that.


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## D/C (Dec 19, 2021)

A thought...maybe, the people replying to my original post should have just answered the question I asked, if they knew! If not, they should have remained silent. I think you would agree, there would be a lot less controversy. I can only imagine what goes on in the other posts. Seems some people have too much time on their hands.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Fodder is a professional dog trainer and handler. She’s very important. I suggested earlier you take some time to read the board. Now might be the time.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

With all DUE respect! (not "do") - color is a preference, and a legitimate one - BUT!!!!! Blacks and bi-colors come in every type and subtype in the breed - from BYB dogs, to Euro show lines, Euro working lines, East German lines, AKC CKC show lines .....Purpose, goals and environment in which the pup is expected to live are criteria which need to be addressed to ascertain type prior to recommending any breeder............but that breeder may be very discriminating in choosing a buyer.

I have produced quite a few blacks though 20 years - but don't sell pups based on someone's color requirements.

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

D/C said:


> I find the reluctance of any "breeder" to be willing - at the buyers expense, NOT to perform testing suspicious. There are quite a few "breeders" on the internet that hold themselves out to the general public as "reputable". Unfortunately, there are too many "backyard/ puppy mill breeders advertising GSD puppies for sale! Some even mix breeds, hoping no one will notice.


Not many members here that would recommend backyard breeders. The breeders recommended here mostly have no need to advertise. Pups are spoken for long before born.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

D/C said:


> FODDER... At the risk of being a casualty of your "cancel culture", I suggest your screen name is quite apropos, inferior & readily available common material. You bloviate in an annoying way as if you are very important. Maybe in your little circle, you are. I imagine not in the real world.
> *PS: A special thank you to GSDSTEVE, for going the extra mile and providing actionable material. *


Please check out the board rules, particularly 1-5.








Board Rules


We realized that the board rules were no longer posted at the top of each forum so am posting them again. ADMIN Board Rules Considering the real-time nature of this Web Board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## FristSgt (Dec 17, 2021)

D/C said:


> Hello all. Looking to find a "true" black or bi-color GSD puppy from reputable breeder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> D/C


where are you located?


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## FristSgt (Dec 17, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Not many members here that would recommend backyard breeders. The breeders recommended here mostly have no need to advertise. Pups are spoken for long before born.


This is our male. 1st generation American GSD AKC registered with great hips and elbows


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

FristSgt said:


> This is our male. 1st generation American GSD AKC registered with great hips and elbows
> View attachment 581435


Handsome boy.

You should introduce yourself here.








New Member Introductions


Drop in and introduce yourself to the community!




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Barry H (Jun 14, 2020)

D/C said:


> Hello all. Looking to find a "true" black or bi-color GSD puppy from reputable breeder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> D/C


Vonkopfeschutzengel.com


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## Roscoe618 (Jan 11, 2020)

D/C said:


> Please, with all do respect. It seems you all are making *my simple request* way too complicated. If you do not know of any specific breeders that cater to litters that predominantly have black/bi-color, GSD's that ok. I'm not asking you to find the type of dog! Just a breeder.


Call Cross Keys K9 in New Jersey. They are affiliated with a breeder who has an all black male puppy.


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## Annekennedy (Feb 1, 2021)

D/C said:


> Hello all. Looking to find a "true" black or bi-color GSD puppy from reputable breeder. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> D/C


Good luck finding a healthy happy puppy since know one on this form can give you a straight answer they apparently forgot the question and started debating about the color of a german shepherd I personally have no idea I rescued my pup off of Craigslist ....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Annekennedy said:


> Good luck finding a healthy happy puppy since know one on this form can give you a straight answer they apparently forgot the question and started debating about the color of a german shepherd I personally have no idea I rescued my pup off of Craigslist ....



that is really not fair.....I can think of at least 2 dozen people who produce black pups- in order to give anyone a recommendation, it takes some insight to what they want, can handle and afford....otherwise it is like shooting fish in a barrel...

Lee


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

A quick word to the OP and forgive me if this has already been addressed ---

Go for temperament and health - skip the idea of the perfect colors and go for the perfect dog.


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