# did the original german shepherd defend sheep also ?



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

When with the shepherd did they defend sheep as well? My dog has extreme forward predator aggression to the point she doesnt even bark now she will just try to catch and fight it to death(only on property), was just curious the original shepherds I know they protected the shepherd but did they also protect the sheep?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

to my knowledge, the dogs were meant to herd AND protect. The sheep is their "pack". The dogs had to be small enough to handle the job but large enough to be a deterrent to theft or coyotes and other predators as well as be willing to step up to a fight is the need arose.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

coyotes don't exist in germany? maybe jackals, euro lynx, golden eagles and stray/feral dogs? and people of course


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

predators in general. lol


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

lol yeah, so dealing with predators was part of their job both 4 legged and 2 legged as long, as the shepherd is with them of course. I thought I remember cliff mentioning this i just forgot. Ive seen mine actually lift her leg up and mark a spot where she ran off a coyote. She will mark the spot it was standing.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

is it anything other than romantic/nostalgic musings to discuss the modern gsd as if it has anything in common with an actual practical herding dog.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Some people work hard to keep the original shepherd alive. In case you didn't notice. If they didnt your dog would be tucking tail and running all the time there was any kind of scary confrontation.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

my breeder has never considered herding abilities in the selection of his stock in some thirty years of breeding.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

wow for someone on a GSD forum where one might assume they like the breed, you sure are prejudice against it. There are GSDs that are actually herding dogs. They're supposed to be an all around functional dog. The can do it all canine. There are responsible breeders who do breed for those qualities. There was a post recently where someone in Colorado was asking about one person giving commands to their herding dogs, ONE of the dogs being a GSD. Just because someone clearly doesn't see the dogs that are involved as herding dogs, doesn't mean they aren't out there. There are herding dog trials. There are classes one can take with their dog. Today's GSD may not be as hardened as the GSDs of the past but the majority can still get the job done.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

no its BECAUSE i love the breed i want them to be discussed for how they are now, what that means and where that leads. 

it's folks that discuss the breed in romantic, flowery, nostlagic ways that are the true enemies of the breed.

using yr logic you would conclude that cliffson and jack's dad? HATE the breed which is clearly the opposite of the truth.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

x11 said:


> no its BECAUSE i love the breed i want them to be discussed for how they are now, what that means and where that leads.
> 
> it's folks that discuss the breed in romantic, flowery, nostlagic ways that are the true enemies of the breed.
> 
> using yr logic you would conclude that cliffson and jack's dad? HATE the breed which is clearly the opposite of the truth.


 
I don't see how discussing the breed as it was intended makes people the enemy of that breed. This breed was intended to be a herding dog but also a protector. Because of it's intelligence and ability to learn new tasks quickly and effectively, it was brought into use as a protection dog, search dog, etc for the various military units that could get the dogs. 

Cliff is VERY knowledgeable and his logic is sound. I honestly don't pay much attention to posts from Jack's Dad. I love this breed for its versatility. Considering the vast majority of people who have one breed or another anymore really have that breed for a companion more than anything since most of us are city dwellers, the breed had to be adaptive. The dogs who served well in the military are the ones bred to be working lines. Their breeders took certain qualities of one dog and certain qualities of another and put them together in the hopes they would get the next generation of working dogs with the drive to protect and work more than drive livestock. 

If wanting the breed to stay true to its capabilities is considered romantic, then call me a hopeless romantic. I believe this breed can still do it all and will do it all with the right people. So what if some people prefer the dog just to be geared for bite work? That's fine. That's part of the versatility of the breed. If I want my dog to be able to do bite work and also help me round up a herd of sheep or cattle, then I will find a breeder who knows their dogs capabilities and potential that can help me succeed at both. 

This breed is a working breed. No matter what the job, they're up for it. I don't think that's romantic, flowery or nostalgic. I think that's realistic.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

x11 are you drunk

gsd is versatile jack of all trades etc.. Its the smartest of all dogs (maybe next to the border collie) They can do almost any task. Its not a one dimensional attack dog, sorry but that just makes it look stupid. Yes it is a serious protector and maybe the best out there. But thats just part of it.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

sure, thats why the herding lines are guessing less than one percent of all the gsd born and schuts has a herding phase to you know, keep the breeding stock true to it's heritage.

dreaming is a great thing to do, i am currently dreaming i am fishing for marlin on some remote pacific island surrounded by women in grass skirts calling me the messiah while chewing on beetle-nut.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

What makes you think that people who breed and produce police dogs or pp dogs won't produce a dog that can herd? 

What makes u think a police dog can't do it if it was tested? My trainers ring 3 mal passed the test. So you saying these gsd's wont? 

The demand for sheep herding is just not there anymore for gsds. Border collies took over that demand. LGD & donkey took over the protection demand. Many can still do it if you want them to. Many still have it in them I am sure they just are not as good as some of the other dogs.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

cos if you don't breed specifically for herding and test herding ability and cull heavily every generation in about 4 generations max you no longer have a herding line.

herding instinct test is about as farcical as a breed survey test is for nerve & protective instinct.

but you lovers of the breed continue, it's all worked well so far, i will be the not so lone nut that seeks and speaks the truth.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I wont deny the nut part.... 

funny thing about this breed. THEY ARE VERSATILE!!! They are willing to learn just about anything you throw at them, this includes herding. Some have the instinct, some don't. That's the case with all herding/working breeds. Border Collies are an example. Sure they have that classic border collie stare but there are dogs that have been put with a herd of sheep and just don't have the instinct needed for it. But some of those lacking can be trained. With their intelligence, they learn to read the patterns in the herd, watch for the movements needed to move in a certain direction. It may take some more work in training but its not impossible to teach them.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The answer to your question is Yes. German Shepherds were developed with natural forward aggression. Their roll in Shepherding is actually considered sheep "tending" rather than just moving sheep around (herding). They run a perimeter around the sheep to keep them in place and keep a watchful eye for intruders. There is actually an IPO title, the HGH, that test the dogs tending abilities.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

robk said:


> The answer to your question is Yes. German Shepherds were developed with natural forward aggression. Their roll in Shepherding is actually considered sheep "tending" rather than just moving sheep around (herding). They run a perimeter around the sheep to keep them in place and keep a watchful eye for intruders. There is actually an IPO title, the HGH, that test the dogs tending abilities.


:thumbup: The term I've heard is "invisible fence". I was going to take Piper for herding lessons, her breeder suggested we go to someone who was familiar with GSD's and do tending instead. She did go to another trainer just once when she was 17 weeks old to see how she would react to the sheep, she did really well. 

x11- Have you ever tried it? It's actually pretty interesting IMHO.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Here is an interesting site concerning herding: German Shepherd Herding. It not only contains interviews and insights from Manfred Heyne (look him up) but also comparisons between Schutzhund and herding. A visit to this site is time well spent IMO.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

German Shepherds still make excellent heerding dogs. Health issues have kept me from it for several years now, but in the past I took the grandsire of the dog I have now to be tested for herding. The trainer had a working line GSD that she used for her every day chores and for trialing. She didn't believe that the ASL had any instinct or drive left in it, but she said we could come out anyway. She was impressed with his instinct for gathering, his drive for the work, and his biddability for direction. She helped me train this dog to the best of MY ability and time (it was a 7 hour drive for me, but worth it), as well as many other dogs trhu the years. Every dog I ever took to her farm showed instinct, but some didn't have the drive to keep it up, and others weren't as biddable as needed, but quite a few of the dogs did very well.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

OP is your dog a working herding dog or is she just protecting your property from anything? I don't find it terrible that she does that, but it is questionable that she wants to fight anything that enters your property to the death. IMO there are plenty of things that could enter your yard without the intent to hurt your pack and for your dog to be assuming that anything walking in is trying to hurt the pack is questionable...

Now...if your dog is a working dog that actively herds sheep...it makes sense for her to be attacking things that might harm the flock. I'm usually on the side of the dog protecting their property...but I do think there are certain lines that need to be taught or trained into a dog so that they don't just attack anything that might accidentally step foot on your property.

And I don't believe that generations of not breeding for herding remove it that much from the dog...my dog doesn't come from the greatest of lines, and there are some SchH dogs 3 generations back but when I took him for his HIC he did just fine. In fact with training would've been just fine.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Now...if your dog is a working dog that actively herds sheep...it makes sense for her to be attacking things that might harm the flock. I'm usually on the side of the dog protecting their property...but I do think there are certain lines that need to be taught or trained into a dog so that they don't just attack anything that might accidentally step foot on your property.


For the last 25 years, every working breed that I've had will attempt to fight anything that steps foot on our property. This includes Aussies, GSDs, Doxies and now my Lacy. Management by me keeps them from doing so. 

I expect EVERY dog I have to feel they need to protect the homestead, including but not limited to all who live there. Certainly doesn't mean I'd send them after a bunny, coyote or a stranger.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm no herding expert, but all but one of the GSDs I've taken to herding classes, herding instinct testing, herding clinics, etc. could do the job with little to no encouragement. Not sure where you're getting your facts and stats, but some of my guys are related, others not ... the Hooligans represent a variety of pedigree backgrounds but they're all considered ASLs if that makes any difference?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

robk said:


> The answer to your question is Yes. German Shepherds were developed with natural forward aggression. Their roll in Shepherding is actually considered sheep "tending" rather than just moving sheep around (herding). They run a perimeter around the sheep to keep them in place and keep a watchful eye for intruders. There is actually an IPO title, the HGH, that test the dogs tending abilities.



Yeah it is a much more forward aggression catch and fight/kill rather than my friends great pry who just bark chase and stop (bluff, more self preservation)


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

no one sends their dog after anything unless its to protect a certain animal or animals, the extreme aggression is already there, no animal here is stupid enough to go into a yard with a serious shepherd thats intent on killing and then get trapped or cornered. Animals are smart and value their own lives also. They want to survive and not be maimed so they cant hunt again or die. 

Animals might hang out and watch us on the fence line borders in the bushes at night then run off when they get noticed. 


A lot of cats are being hunted these days around here so a lot of predators are going close to human areas and snooping around. Fishers and coyotes mostly. Not a big deal, i just took notice as i am trying to quit smoking again i started a few months ago and find myself going out late in the middle of the night with my dog  it sucks i will quit soon though. But you see all kinds of wierd things at 3am. 

My cat who grew up outdoors won't dare go outside now as she knows the smell of predators seeing other cats get eaten including her siblings and mother.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I have a feeling my dog would pass the test the only concern is she would be too hard on the sheep? She did go after a bull once I am not sure what she was trying to that time. It was very quick and everyone was in shock because a bull was not expected in that area. But whatever she did she was able to move the bull and control it by using force. But there was no direction or anything she was just chasing it I forced her to come back. Just really wierd experience because the bull was in trails where no bulls are suppose to exist. We thought we could have helped it find its owners but my dog some how spooked it and herded it. No one was ready for it, it had to be at least one tonne?


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Wow I guess since I herd with my dog that means I hate him! And actually he has several herding dogs, dogs with herding titles that is in his pedigree.... Guess my breeder hates GSD's too. (complete tongue in cheek)


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

We took a GSD recently to get his herding instinct certificate. He was a natural. In fact, he was doing so well, that the judge just let him keep going and going, much longer than the test should've run. And when the test was over, he didn't want to leave the pen. He absolutely loved it. The judges and members of the herding club were begging us to train him in herding. 

As far as "real life" application of his herding, someone hit a cow with their car out by their property, and it was wounded and running. So they used him to round up the cow. No herding lessons, no herding titles, just hey lets bring that cow in.

Last year, we took his dam to get her herding instinct certificate. Different judges, different club. She was amazing. Never saw a sheep in her life. The judge said "she's border collie good".


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Babs is a natural too. I put her on sheep several years ago and with no encouragement at all, she was herding them. She was also looking back to get direction from me. The lady who owned the sheep was impressed with her. She was a Pyrean Shepherd person. 

GSDs still have it in them, and they don't have to be working line dogs to have it in them either.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

yeah i think a lot of other lines like the old american lines? still carry a lot of those traits? not the newer show lines as much. A lot of working ones can excell if they arent too hard on the sheep.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Absolutely Selzer! The two dogs I was talking about are ASL. That are shown in AKC conformation.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

The grandfather of my dog Carly had a couple of herding tested titles (PT and HT), but he was also used on the ranch to herd. Apparently he was self-appointed, lol.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x11 said:


> no its BECAUSE i love the breed i want them to be discussed for how they are now, what that means and where that leads.
> 
> it's folks that discuss the breed in romantic, flowery, nostlagic ways that are the true enemies of the breed.
> 
> using yr logic you would conclude that cliffson and jack's dad? HATE the breed which is clearly the opposite of the truth.


Nothing romantic or nostalgic here. Just a story about my dog and I. 

When I was a teenager, (let it be noted, this was after my accident and us moving to the Horsefarm) I had a female named Dixie. She went through three different handlers, I believe she ended up in Switzerland. Instead of being ruined in bitework, she was ruined in Obedience during the forced retrieve. When you showed her a helper, she was on fire but once she saw the dumbbell, she was done... 

Anyhow, when she first came back, she was in one of the stables and wouldn't come out. I've always had that thing with dogs like that. I simply went inside, unafraid, grabbed her by the scruff, dragged her outside and took her on a walk, even took her off leash, never even thinking about that she could have just ran away. She didn't. Instead, from that day on, that dog was glued to my side. Anywhere I went, she went with me. I was about 15 to 16 years old. 

She then got her own kennel with a kennel run. She knew who I was by my footsteps and every morning, when I had to go to the bus station, she jumped the fence and accompanied me there. 

We also used to have Sheep and Goats. 
One morning the sheep and goats broke out of their pen and the property wasn't fully fenced in back then. Dixie had already jumped the fence to follow me. I knew I wouldn't get those sheep back in the pen by myself so I called out to Dixie. She basically rounded them up. Never learned it, just did it. 

All our dogs have herding instinct. I know because I watched it every day, how they would run the line at the horse paddocks. They literally left trails doing that and for some odd reason, Dixie knew exactly what she was doing that day. 

That's my little story for today, a blast from the past.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

My dog is a natural as well even at barely 9 months old... He's showed great instinct with sustained interest, keeping the livestock together, he's not rough with the livestock and is very responsive to the stick. During our first lesson he did not want to stop either and my instructor had to help me stop him(yeah that's something we're working on lol). I hope to start trialing sometime this year. He is a SL/WL cross, you can see the combination in my sig. We LOVE herding, I'm surprised so few people are doing it on this forum!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

pets4life said:


> yeah i think a lot of other lines like the old american lines? still carry a lot of those traits? not the newer show lines as much. A lot of working ones can excell if they arent too hard on the sheep.


Yes, the ASL dogs still carry the herding traits necessary to do a job.

Ch. Keno



Ch. Kizzy



Keno often helped with chores on the farm where we trained. He would hold sheep against the fence for treating for parasites. He would take down a charging ram, back down an angry ewe, or nuzzle the new babies in the right direction. 

Kizzy was reserve high in trial at the 2002 GSDCA National herding trial.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

pets4life said:


> , no animal here is stupid enough to go into a yard with a serious shepherd thats intent on killing and then get trapped or cornered. Animals are smart and value their own lives also. They want to survive and not be maimed so they cant hunt again or die.


I take it you've never owned a JRT?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

well i was talking about wild animals, but ive met like 100 jrt I could not see any of them go into a yard like that either. They seem to know what dogs they can bother. My brother has 2.


One was carried off by a coyote here recently  In my area.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

pets4life said:


> well i was talking about wild animals, but ive met like 100 jrt I could not see any of them go into a yard like that either. They seem to know what dogs they can bother. My brother has 2.
> 
> 
> One was carried off by a coyote here recently  In my area.


Oh no. Sorry to hear about your brother's pup!

I've owned one. Feared nothing. Thought he was 10' tall and bullet proof.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

x11 said:


> my breeder has never considered herding abilities in the selection of his stock in some thirty years of breeding.


Who is to say that is good?

The old herding lines seem to bring this trait of connectedness and bidaability which, if you have not experienced, you don't know what I mean. 

I think it is all related to how if I go out in the woods and work an area with my GSD he works around me a certain way. Always relative to me. Knows if I stop and change directions even if he is way ahead and cannot see me. It is very surreal that connection and I think it is far more common with any of the herders than non herding breeds. I do not sense the same thing with hunting dogs, certainly not with hounds. Yes, loving, but not that same invisible connection.

I have no romantic notions of herding sheep somewhere but do think the traits carry on and are useful in other ways.

I saw Beau freeting about a loose calf at a friends house. Trotting back and forth. It was not a predatory action. He was not chasing it but moving alongside of it keeping it near the fence holding the other cattle. He was not cutting it like a border collie just trying to keep it with the others if that makes sense. I would love to do a herding instinct test.

Personally I think the whole thing is fascinating when you look at how certain innate behaviors that are part of "the hunt" are refined in different breeds of dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lilie said:


> I take it you've never owned a JRT?


No kidding, they challenge horses too. I know a JRT that was obsessed withhaunting a stallion and he got kicked good.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

my brothers are the tall hunting kind also. I dont know anything about jrt lines but they were not tiny like some i see. He said they were used to help with fox and mink hunting. 

Along with missing cats we get a lot of missing dogs now here mostly jrt, and other minis.

They actually had a man save 1 dog a boston terrier and was on the news recently, from a coyote attack right here. They will jump the fence and carry off dogs the size of a cat or fox. 

PRoblem with our situation is the construction keeps going deeper and deeper in the woods bringing them more and more in. Oh well thats nature it happens in every country with some species.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

right behind my dog fence in the bushes there is a rabbitry, a lot of rabbits around there and they make dens and have a lot of litters. My dog would love to eat them but she cannot catch the rabbits who go into her yard the zig zag motion leaves her in the dust. Not sure why they like it there so much close to her fence. Shes so use to them now, she gives herself away big time when she trys stalking one. If i see her chasing one i yell at her anyway. She trys to get so low like a cat its ridiculous because an animal her size will be seen by everything a mile away.


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