# Structured walk



## gmartinez3 (Jan 23, 2017)

Hello,

My dog is fairly decent when it comes to loose leash walking without dog distractions. I have been using this method of walking her with the prong collar: 




My question is that, is this method of structured walk effective in the long run or is it just a band-aid for a small problem? Will I be able to phase out the prong collar in the future? 

I have tried incorporating positive reinforcement (food rewards when she is behind my left heel) but she just gets amped up and pulls slightly ahead. 
If there are other training methods for structured walks, it would be gladly appreciated.


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

gmartinez3 said:


> Hello,
> 
> My dog is fairly decent when it comes to loose leash walking without dog distractions. I have been using this method of walking her with the prong collar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_WmkYBHE4o
> 
> ...


Uhm....depends of what the problem is? Whatever the problem is engagement is the key to success to everything. The transition from prong collar to a flat collar...yes is possible :grin2: 

You can watch videos of Tyler Muto he's awesome, also Dream Come True K9 (Blake Rodriguez) has some pretty sweet videos out there.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Not a fan of his approach. He is using corrections and leash pressure to train initial behaviors. Yes, it will work, but the dog's drive is going to be suppressed and he could have a negative emotional association with the commands and pressure work. He looks like a pure escape/avoidance trainer.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't like the way he gives corrections while just standing there with the dog during his endless explanations. Also the dog doesn't have room to walk due to the short leash. Too many mild corrections that probably irritate the dog;licking and looking.
I like to give the dog the option by a longer leash and the command heel (once learned) and let the dog decide what to do. He corrects before the command. Didn't watch the rest of the video.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's a purpose to walking a dog this way. Its not about teaching happy heeling or having him in drive. Its more of an overall control, he mentioned something about it.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> There's a purpose to walking a dog this way. Its not about teaching happy heeling or having him in drive. Its more of an overall control, he mentioned something about it.


If you give the leash 2 feet and in combination with the prong, you should have enough control I would think? And in addition the handler being vigilant about what the dog is doing/seeing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

He did say ... he just got the dog. I give people props for showing their work, that i is how people learn these days! I should have did a clip of my very first use of a SLL, with my very first rescue and they said to me ... "be careful this dog pulls!" LOL yeah right ... the first thing I noticed was the little tab thing?? I positioned it high and snug and ...waited! The dog struggled for a bit like WTH??? Stopped after a bit waited ... I said "Nothing!" And then the dog sat down!! I looked down and said "OK" and off we went! It was a great day ... and he walked as well on leash (with lots of slack, if that's that important) as my own Struddell (White Boxer) who a little old lady in a walke could walk with zero issues! But yeah had I actually had the foresight to do a clip ... pretty sure "most would have seen "nothing" happening??? Still ... although "Tic Tac Toe" (Boxer) walked fine for me ... when I handed him off at the end of the day ... there he goes again, off in the distance dragging his handler behind him! 

And he was not my first claimed puller ... Deer Dog was even more spectacular ... makeshift SLL and that was one ... freaking epic!!! They'd just chased him down across town from chasing Deer!!

That was epic, even I was stunned! But ... chip specific rules so I can't post. 

Still when I went back to see the owners there he was again 'pulling away on walks???" I just don't seem to be able to transfer what I do to others??? But moving on for ... trainers that do show their work and can "explain to others. 

A couple links:









I've only had two dogs ... where I felt a "Prong Collar" could have produced quicker results ( a huge headed (Breed that shall not be mentioned) and a Boxer/APBT (she was a plopper downer???) But it's all relative ... those have been the only tow dogs that I could not to get walk well on leash inside of five minutes??? The other ten or so despite the claimed issues were a piece of cake ... although, yeah the dogs owners still not could walk them?? I seem to just suck at the transfer what I do to others thing ... that's a skill I have not learned thus far???


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> If you give the leash 2 feet and in combination with the prong, you should have enough control I would think? And in addition the handler being vigilant about what the dog is doing/seeing.


You're losing me, that's what I see him doing. Its not so much about physical control, like restraint. The 2' of leash is more for timing and a beginning perception in the dogs mind, not about physically holding him there. Its creating that mind set of following your direction.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What I see is that he has not given the dog one foot of leather even. Then when he lets go of the leash the dog immediately leaves him (because the dog hasn't been trained yet?) I have given Deja that option but she continues to walk next to me, no matter how long the leash is. I test them by giving them more leash and when they take advantage, correction. Not with puppies though. Or am I not understanding this correctly? I still don't like the looks of it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I start pet walk dogs like this. I have a specific start cue and ending cue so the dog knows exactly when he is expected to hold the position and when it he is done and is free to leave. If you want more pep to it you can reward on progressively longer stretches of dog holding the correct position, but for an ordinary pet where you just want a calm walk you do a lot less rewarding. The reward frequency has more to do with the level of drive you want out of them during the behavior and less to do with driving the actual behavior itself as the negative reinforcement takes care of that. The dog doesn't know the behavior it is simply responding to his input. 

At some point as the dog becomes better at the behavior and understands the position I start to fade little help corrections and they start to become harder corrections for screwing up or non compliance. This will be what eventually fades the need for the constant needing to do little input corrections. If you always operate a loose leash except when the dog is doing something you want to change especially if you start them like that from a puppy you can do it on flat collars or slip collars from the get go and never have to worry about prongs or anything like that. Using proper pressure and release techniques like that a dog will never learn to pull if you are consistent and it never becomes a big issue. If you don't reward pulling or always tight line a dog and take away all incentive to yield to leash pressure dogs just give into the leash easily.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, what he said. I probably sound like this guy sometimes:


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

This trainer is the polar opposite of a force-free trainer. I don't much balance or fairness with this technique.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, what he said. I probably sound like this guy sometimes:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz6NTCxDGLA


LOL ... that was pretty much my SLL fail, with my friend and his Deer Chasing Boxer??? 

I tried to explain but it was a "fail" the deer chasing dog I walked around uh Deer without issue??? Was back to his old Deer Chasing Pulling on leash behaviours when I saw them a few months later.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Wolfhund said:


> This trainer is the polar opposite of a force-free trainer. I don't much balance or fairness with this technique.


You're seeing the beginning of a process that will have a normal calm walking dog be the end product. You don't know what you're talking about.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Baillif said:


> You're seeing the beginning of a process that will have a normal calm walking dog be the end product. You don't know what you're talking about.


Dude, I don't think it's fair to teach commands initially with leash pressure. The dog doesn't know how to sit, yet he yanks the leash up. That's BS. If the dog knows the command and is disobeying, yank away, but to start training like that is going to condition the dog to have a negative emotional response to the command. 

You don't know what you're talking about. That trainer is like some ******* drill sergeant.

I want to add that while I don't think the trainer is super brutal on the dog, it's training like this that gives ammunition to the extremist force-free trainers to say prong collars are evil blah blah blah.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

We're all entitled to different opinions but please refrain from attacking each other because of them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't care for this style of training. I can think of a few situations where it might be warranted but for the average dog and owner I am not into it. I especially don't care for how the dog looks at the person walking along videoing them and the guy pops the dog for it.

I have three things that I do with my dogs--loose leash walking, where they are allowed to sniff and do whatever. Competition heel. And "walk through the store", where I need them to stay basically in heel position but without the eye contact competition heel. I don't teach any of them like this.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

That Jeff Gellman video says "There is nothing harsh about my techniques. There is NO pain involved."

REALLY????


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That Jeff Gellman video says "There is nothing harsh about my techniques. There is NO pain involved."
> 
> REALLY????


I think the video of Jeff Gellman is a lot more fair to the dog than the first video that was posted. At least he gives some more slack on the leash to the dog, and the pops are better timed and I like his use of leash pressure. What I don't like is how he likes to train initial behaviors like sit, down, and stay with negative reinforcement first. He is a bit too cowboyish about the ecollar being used as the initial training tool instead of using it mainly in the proofing stage.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I also think that the dog used in the video was not hard at ll. She didn't show any behavior that needed to be corrected like this. This may work with bratty, spoiled dogs but I didn't see that in the demo dog.Just MHO. 
I tried it just for the heck of it with Deja and I didn't like what I saw, and neither did she. All I did was walking her on a very short leash (1 ft) and the prong and no corrections needed for 5 minutes at the most.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That Jeff Gellman video says "There is nothing harsh about my techniques. There is NO pain involved."
> 
> REALLY????


Yeah, I don't like it when trainers who use corrections say corrections are painless. Corrections (positive punishment) work because they cause some pain. Let's not try to whitewash or sugarcoat what a correction is. I think this does a disservice to educating people on corrections and how thoughtful implementation of them can help with the training program. I think trainers should not be ashamed and just admit that corrections can cause pain and that pain is not something to sugarcoat or shy away from, but rather have a healthy respect of how a tool works and that pain administered in appropriate doses and the resulting stress creates a more resilient and well-rounded dog.

On a side note, I don't think leash pressure (neg. reinforcement) is necessarily painful, but it does cause some discomfort.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Put a prong on your neck tight and high and have someone give you similar corrective pops. Annoying? Sure. Painful? No. You will feel pressure similar to a flat collar only evenly distributed around the neck instead of opposite the direction of the tug. 

You can punish with the tool but that is not what was happening here. You can cause pain with corrections sure but that is not what was happening there.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Remember when watching these videos that the end goal is not the flashy focused "happy" heel you see in IPO dogs... or think you are seeing in IPO dogs.

I saw a service dog yesterday, a big yellow lab. He didn't look real happy. He wasn't pant-smiling, or wagging his tail, his whole demeanor was kind of Winne-the-Pooh-ish "oh bother". Lay down with a sigh whenever his handler stopped. But that's how most service dogs are... they are not unhappy, but they are not keyed up or in drive either. Because that's not their job. I saw a seeing-eye dog that was the same way, very very mellow. A dog doesn't need to be in drive to do certain jobs, and a big part of this for service dog is also genetics. 

People have the misconception that a dog needs to look happy all the time. I love to see my dogs happy and in drive, but for many situations, that level of drive is inappropriate, and you need to be able to take the dog in and OUT of drive. The OUT being more critical for a pet dog, and you are seeing the beginning of this- along with handler attention- in these structured walks. I might do it differently, but I do see why these bulk B&T trainers are doing it this way. 

Also, there is hectic drive/arousal and focused drive... one is good for training the other is not... plenty of pet dogs have that hectic state of mind down but do not have the drive that is useful for anything. Almost any dog can become better focused with training, but most pet owners just want the pulling to stop... and that is why these trainers do what they do.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I once had a 'career-changed' seeing eye dog, a Lab/Golden cross in my class. The dog was absolutely 'robbed' from any initiative and joy and was kinda like a robot. He never opened up over the course of the class. He couldn't recognize a ball as a scource of fun, just looked at it. I know they have to sacrifice a lot for the good but I feel sorry for the dog itself.
I think dogs should be able to take on the service dog role when in their professional gear but also to be allowed free time. I know they can handle and differentiate these separate tasks. Sorry for going off topic.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> Remember when watching these videos that the end goal is not the flashy focused "happy" heel you see in IPO dogs... or think you are seeing in IPO dogs.
> 
> I saw a service dog yesterday, a big yellow lab. He didn't look real happy. He wasn't pant-smiling, or wagging his tail, his whole demeanor was kind of Winne-the-Pooh-ish "oh bother". Lay down with a sigh whenever his handler stopped. But that's how most service dogs are... they are not unhappy, but they are not keyed up or in drive either. Because that's not their job. I saw a seeing-eye dog that was the same way, very very mellow. A dog doesn't need to be in drive to do certain jobs, and a big part of this for service dog is also genetics.
> 
> ...


Happy or not happy, the dog in the video looked pretty mellow and not in drive. Also, this dog wasn't being trained to be a service dog. This still doesn't explain why he was using leash pressure to teach the commands. Also, in the beginning, he was giving some pops that seemed to agitate the dog and it looked like it was going to snap at him. I don't see how that walk was creating a relationship between the trainer and dog other than one of dominance/submisson.

I will say that this Saint Bernard could have benefited from a walk like that, but not the German Shepard in the video.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wolfhund said:


> I think the video of Jeff Gellman is a lot more fair to the dog than the first video that was posted. At least he gives some more slack on the leash to the dog, and the pops are better timed and I like his use of leash pressure. What I don't like is how he likes to train initial behaviors like sit, down, and stay with negative reinforcement first. He is a bit too cowboyish about the ecollar being used as the initial training tool instead of using it mainly in the proofing stage.


I'll agree that it is one of the more mild Jeff Gellman videos I have seen.

But you know, you just can't tell me that there is ever "NO" pain involved with using a prong collar. That's why it works. I don't think we do anybody any favors when we lie about what's going on to make people feel better. I'm not anti prong. I'm not in the camp of "the dog should never feel any discomfort or hear the word no in its life"

I think his statement is pretty bogus and it's just pointless to say stuff like that. Lying about it just doesn't help. This kind of goes back to what Slamdunc was saying about the e collar in the other thread.

But mainly, for that man to say that his techniques are not harsh and there is no pain involved is just a straight up lie. A lot if not all of what he does is basically harsh and involving pain.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baillif said:


> Put a prong on your neck tight and high and have someone give you similar corrective pops. Annoying? Sure. Painful? No. You will feel pressure similar to a flat collar only evenly distributed around the neck instead of opposite the direction of the tug.
> 
> You can punish with the tool but that is not what was happening here. You can cause pain with corrections sure but that is not what was happening there.


I'll have to get back to you on this, I have never had a prong collar on my neck. But I have had one on my arm and leg. And I'm not sure why "annoying" enough to want to avoid it doesn't count as pain. Sure, it may not be the most severe pain the thing can cause. But it's not pleasant. That's why it works. It's discomfort. Uncomfortable. Whatever.

I don't think it benefits anyone to say there is absolutely no pain involved, which I think is what he said. And you all ought to know I am not anti prong.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> Remember when watching these videos that the end goal is not the flashy focused "happy" heel you see in IPO dogs... or think you are seeing in IPO dogs.
> 
> I saw a service dog yesterday, a big yellow lab. He didn't look real happy. He wasn't pant-smiling, or wagging his tail, his whole demeanor was kind of Winne-the-Pooh-ish "oh bother". Lay down with a sigh whenever his handler stopped. But that's how most service dogs are... they are not unhappy, but they are not keyed up or in drive either. Because that's not their job. I saw a seeing-eye dog that was the same way, very very mellow. A dog doesn't need to be in drive to do certain jobs, and a big part of this for service dog is also genetics.
> 
> ...


Right, service dogs are in a whole different mindset than most dogs. But I would say there are better ones and worse ones, ones that are happy to be doing their job but still doing it in a very calm, focused way. And there are robotic ones that don't appear happy to me. I too have met a lab that was a seeing eye dog that seemed to have been turned into a robot. It did not seem to take much joy in anything in life, and this was off duty. Owner/disabled partner not even present. It made me sad. I was there with my own service dog, also off duty, who was enjoying herself and being a dog.

My service dog worked in a very calm focused manner, and she LOVED her job. She still will vault off the couch from a dead sleep to get to the door with me and try to get in harness and come to work, and she has been retired for a year now. 

I am well aware of the difference between pets and sport dogs and the difference between what the trainers are trying to achieve. It is my impression that every pet dog trained by these guys has to walk in that robotic heel, is not allowed to sniff or have any interaction with the world. I just don't like it. There are dogs and times where it is useful so I'm not trying to say it should never be done.

I've noticed something else, too. A lot of these more heavy handed trainers tend to refer to the dog as "It" instead of he or she. 

Anyway. I'd rather my dogs be a little sloppy and happy and sniffing and doing stuff. I don't want them to act like robots. When we go into a building for an obedience run thru or into a store, they walk quietly at my side. Sure I have to say leave it from time to time if they want to sniff something I don't want them to sniff. I guess I would rather say leave it when I don't want them to sniff something than have them never sniff anything at all.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I've noticed something else, too. A lot of these more heavy handed trainers tend to refer to the dog as "It" instead of he or she.
> 
> Anyway. I'd rather my dogs be a little sloppy and happy and sniffing and doing stuff. I don't want them to act like robots. When we go into a building for an obedience run thru or into a store, they walk quietly at my side. Sure I have to say leave it from time to time if they want to sniff something I don't want them to sniff. I guess I would rather say leave it when I don't want them to sniff something than have them never sniff anything at all.


Good point about referring to dogs as "It." I still struggle with this issue. One on hand I don't see my dog or dogs as "Its" but when writing I sometimes choose "It" of brevity. I could also use "he" but then I would feel incorrect for not using "he or she." Maybe I just need to use "he or she"!

I do think dog's need to sniff, but I have recently started structured walks with my dog (not like the trainer in the video with the GSD). I let my dog sniff and do his business in the beginning and then halfway through the walk and then at the end of the walk. So he gets three breaks to be a dog for a couple of minutes. I do think there is something to be said about not letting your dog allow to sniff everything and to mark on everything especially if you live in a city and especially if your dog is intact like mine is. So structured walks are not the issue, but how they are implemented.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am well aware of the difference between pets and sport dogs and the difference between what the trainers are trying to achieve. It is my impression that every pet dog trained by these guys has to walk in that robotic heel, is not allowed to sniff or have any interaction with the world. I just don't like it. There are dogs and times where it is useful so I'm not trying to say it should never be done.
> 
> Anyway. I'd rather my dogs be a little sloppy and happy and sniffing and doing stuff. I don't want them to act like robots. When we go into a building for an obedience run thru or into a store, they walk quietly at my side. Sure I have to say leave it from time to time if they want to sniff something I don't want them to sniff. I guess I would rather say leave it when I don't want them to sniff something than have them never sniff anything at all.



I'm sure some top level sport dogs live in kennels and only come out to train but the vast majority of sport people will only reach club level. Those dogs have the tight focus on the field but at home are allowed to be complete goofballs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

car2ner said:


> I'm sure some top level sport dogs live in kennels and only come out to train but the vast majority of sport people will only reach club level. Those dogs have the tight focus on the field but at home are allowed to be complete goofballs.


I just meant I understand the difference between training a dog for sport obedience and "pet 
obedience


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That Jeff Gellman video says "There is nothing harsh about my techniques. There is NO pain involved."
> 
> REALLY????


Aww well "AFAIK" it's not a "Yank" and thus ... there would be no pain?? It's a wrist flick "sideways" and I can do the same thing with a "SLL" ... it just takes more of an arm motion, remove lack kinda thing?? It's one motion and by and large ... no one looking ...even sees it happen?? So I don't know ... it just happens ... I've "Never" had a dog yep in "Pain???"


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

There is nothing wrong with pain applied judiciously. No Pain No Gain.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wolfhund said:


> Happy or not happy, the dog in the video looked pretty mellow and not in drive. Also, this dog wasn't being trained to be a service dog. This still doesn't explain why he was using leash pressure to teach the commands. Also, in the beginning, he was giving some pops that seemed to agitate the dog and it looked like it was going to snap at him. I don't see how that walk was creating a relationship between the trainer and dog other than one of dominance/submisson.
> 
> I will say that this Saint Bernard could have benefited from a walk like that, but not the German Shepard in the video.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuMqKrqYWHg


LOL ... I would luv to get my hands on a "Ziggy" with a "SLL!" The thing is ... he does actually what I would expect! In the real world ... I had my first "Plopper Downer!" Back yard only dog, the owners never walked her and there "Corrections" considered of "Screaming at her!" And her response to "Corrections" was to "plop Down!"

My next door neighbor so I know them and the dog and when I do visit she (the dog) would just by default ... "plop down???' I found it annoying but you know not my dog soooo ... 

Anyway ... the dog had to go to the vet and I knew the dog would not be good on leash?? So I said, let me walk and then we go to the vet! Yeah ... it did not go well. She did as expected at first ... after I got her out the door. This is great, then she starts to bolt in front. Well no big deal, so a "slight tug sideways." And ... "bam" default behaviour to a correction and down she goes??? Would not move, so our walk turned into "Sit on the Dog" with forward pressure and she did not care! It took 45 minutes to get a house and a half away from home!! 

Still ...off home turf ,she did a bit better but I was the only one that could get her to move at the vet without, much undue duress. They wanted to take her into the back to do her nails but that was not gonna work for them so they said we'll do it on here on the floor. While they were gone ... I thought about it and figured ... well ... since she "plop downs anyway???" I'll just pick her up and put her on the table ... that ... worked out fine! 

After work was done, I took her out of the Vets office and now ... not on home turf??? The Walk, went more as I expected ... she walked fine on leash! She does have to go back to the Vet for a procedure ... so I' gonna have to tell my neighbors that they "need" to let me walk that dog ... or at the vet, they will have not a choice at the vet office but to drag her by the neck!! :surprise:

She is that bad (currently) ... it would be my opportunity to do my first "Youtube" ...but I'm kinda lazy. :e


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wolfhund said:


> There is nothing wrong with pain applied judiciously. No Pain No Gain.


I agree. But let's don't sugar coat it and say it is something other than what it is.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I agree. But let's don't sugar coat it and say it is something other than what it is.


When you get into your car in the mornings and start it up without buckling your seat belt what happens?

When that dinging starts up that is super annoying does it blow out your ear drums? Does the sensation of hearing it cause you something you would call pain? No of course not, but it is annoying and it usually accomplishes its intended task to get you to buckle your seat belt. 

There is easily applied stimuli that a dog finds annoying and wants to take action to stop that does not cross over into what would be considered painful, and if you want to start a behavior using it there is nothing unfair about it unless you are super unclear as to what turns it off.

To suggest otherwise is completely unreasonable.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baillif said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. But let's don't sugar coat it and say it is something other than what it is.
> ...


I don't agree. we don't know exactly what the dogs feel. The golden type dog in JG's video does not seem to get as much pressure and correction as the GSD in the first video,I think...saying that from memory as it was a few days ago I watched.

I think JG is being misleading. 

When I use a prong on myself it is uncomfortable. Mild pain. Whatever you want to say. It leaves a mark from a small tug similar to what JG did in that video.

I prefer a dog to feel superficial discomfort and learn than to lean on their throat on a flat collar which for whatever reason they seem willing to tolerate or ignore.

But I don't think that it is useful to say it doesn't hurt. Put a dog on a prong and the first time they try and pull into it they might whine because it hurts. 

What you feel and what I feel maybe aren't the same...also true between me and a dog and two different dogs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They might whine because it is novel. They might whine because they learned you'll back off as soon as they vocalize. Vocalization does not equal pain either.

Typically dogs that are more sensitive get way less pressure to obtain the desired effect. My leash guidance (it isn't even truly fair to call them corrections when the dog doesn't know the behavior) for a nervy chihuahua is way different than my guiding pressure for a honey badger German Shepherd.

Anyway done with this thread. It's basically Dunning–Kruger effect the post.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Baillif said:


> They might whine because it is novel. They might whine because they learned you'll back off as soon as they vocalize. Vocalization does not equal pain either.
> 
> Typically dogs that are more sensitive get way less pressure to obtain the desired effect. My leash guidance (it isn't even truly fair to call them corrections when the dog doesn't know the behavior) for a nervy chihuahua is way different than my guiding pressure for a honey badger German Shepherd.
> 
> Anyway done with this thread. It's basically Dunning?Kruger effect the post.


wow.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

I also think one needs to differentiate between R- (negative reinforcement) and P+ (positive punishment). A positive punishment is a correction and negative reinforcement is leash pressure. I don't think these two are completely black and white and one can sometimes blend into the other. But in general, negative reinforcement doesn't usually cause pain, but rather, discomfort. A correction, which is a leash pop usually does cause pain. 

This is made more even more complex by the fact that each dog is an individual and is softer or harder than the other so for one one dog what might be uncomfortable, may be painful for the other.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't agree. we don't know exactly what the dogs feel. The golden type dog in JG's video does not seem to get as much pressure and correction as the GSD in the first video,I think...saying that from memory as it was a few days ago I watched.
> 
> I think JG is being misleading.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what your saying, but I have to say that the marks from that pic would not occur on most dogs due to fur serving as a layer of protection. Also, some people bruise more easily than others so we can't really extrapolate what occurred in that picture to all people either.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Wolfhund said:


> I think the video of Jeff Gellman is a lot more fair to the dog than the first video that was posted. At least he gives some more slack on the leash to the dog, and the pops are better timed and I like his use of leash pressure. What I don't like is how he likes to train initial behaviors like sit, down, and stay with negative reinforcement first. He is a bit too cowboyish about the ecollar being used as the initial training tool instead of using it mainly in the proofing stage.


Jeff Gellman's videos are edited to show what he wants to show. Watch more of them and you will see a pattern. Find the one where two dogs in his class got into a fight, one bit the other on the neck, would not release, and he and a helper could not separate them. Or the long one where he is working a dog in a shelter with so many starts and stops to the video you can't get a good idea of how long he worked with the dogs (hours) when it appears to be only a few minutes. Occasionally he shares a video where his methods work, but overall after watching dozens of them, I concluded he is only sporadically good at what he does. Others here may disagree.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Wolfhund said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > I don't agree. we don't know exactly what the dogs feel. The golden type dog in JG's video does not seem to get as much pressure and correction as the GSD in the first video,I think...saying that from memory as it was a few days ago I watched.
> ...


I agree. I have even checked dogs' necks before after a correction, for my own curiosity. I have never seen a mark on a dog from a prong. Maybe their skin is tougher than ours. I tried to say exactly what you are saying here in my post. different people perceive things differently

Dogs will feel and perceive things differently than people.

But my bottom line is if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it is probably a duck. If the dock yelps or whines in a way that they normally yelp or whine when they feel pain and they do it as a result of the prong collar then I think it is a reasonable assumption that it caused them pain.

And still I am not anti prong, anti correction or anti punishment. I think we owe it to the dogs to give them the best life they can have, the happiest life and the life most free from suffering. Big picture. I do not philosophically believe we have the right to do anything to dogs for any result we want by any means just because. I think we should care if we are causing them pain and we should not do it unless the ends really justify the means in a lot of ways.

I think we should be honest about what we are doing and why. I see some trainers who I honestly feel are on an ego trip and it feeds their ego to totally dominate these dogs. I see trainers who care way more what the owner wants than how the dog feels and in some circumstances I don't think that's right.

*Maybe* MAYBE the dog in that video with Gellman didn't feel pain and I already conceded that's some of the least harsh stuff I have seen him do but still to caption a video of his "NO pain involved, not harsh" given his body of work is completely misleading.

And the bottom line is that I feel that the division between force free ppl and balanced ppl is not helped by this assertion that prong collars don't cause pain and dogs vocalize for all kinds of reasons and that doesn't mean they felt pain. I can think of tons of other novel stimulus that doesn't evoke a vocalization most associated with pain.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> They might whine because it is novel. They might whine because they learned you'll back off as soon as they vocalize. Vocalization does not equal pain either.
> 
> Typically dogs that are more sensitive get way less pressure to obtain the desired effect. My leash guidance (it isn't even truly fair to call them corrections when the dog doesn't know the behavior) for a nervy chihuahua is way different than my guiding pressure for a honey badger German Shepherd.
> 
> Anyway done with this thread. It's basically Dunning–Kruger effect the post.


Aww well if it matters "some of us get your point." And I liked the car alarm analogy! A seeming innocuous "correction" "fasten seat belt" and yet ... the driver goes ... running, from the car in terror ... What the Heck??? 

Been there saw that I was freaking stunned??? My "Plopper Downer" I gave "nothing like a "harsh correction" but ... any correction "verbal or "physical" would illicite "initially" (apparently) the same response??? I was stunned????


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jeff Gellman's videos are edited to show what he wants to show. Watch more of them and you will see a pattern. Find the one where two dogs in his class got into a fight, one bit the other on the neck, would not release, and he and a helper could not separate them. Or the long one where he is working a dog in a shelter with so many starts and stops to the video you can't get a good idea of how long he worked with the dogs (hours) when it appears to be only a few minutes. Occasionally he shares a video where his methods work, but overall after watching dozens of them, I concluded he is only sporadically good at what he does. Others here may disagree.


Could you please post the link to the video?

I would consider Jeff Gellman a Koehler trainer. I have never seen him use rewards other than praise. That said, I would say Gellman is probably on the gentle scale for a Koehler trainer. I don't agree with him using negative reinforcement to train initial behaviors, but I think his use of leash pressure and ecollar work is pretty spot on. I think he would not be a good choice if you wanted to get your dog involved in dog sports, but for people who want just a house pet where the owners don't want an amped up dog, I think he would be ok.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I agree. I have even checked dogs' necks before after a correction, for my own curiosity. I have never seen a mark on a dog from a prong. *Maybe their skin is tougher than ours.* I tried to say exactly what you are saying here in my post. different people perceive things differently
> 
> Dogs will feel and perceive things differently than people.


Fun factoid for the day... the human epidermis layer is 10 - 15 cells thick. Dogs have an epidermis only 3 - 5 cells thick. 



Merck Vet Manual said:


> Canine skin is thinner and much more sensitive than human skin.


Description and Physical Characteristics of Dogs - Dog Owners - Merck Veterinary Manual

https://www.vetwest.com.au/pet-library/skin-the-difference-between-canine-and-human-skin

Ever notice people playing around with e collars don't really feel the lower level settings? Low levels that are working levels for many dogs? They are actually more sensitive than us.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@voodoolamb

*Ever notice people playing around with e collars don't really feel the lower level settings? Low levels that are working levels for many dogs? They are actually more sensitive than us.*

While on the whole I agree with this, dogs in drive have less sensitivity. While a dog may be more sensitive to lower levels when not stimulated or agitated, add drive and the same dog will not react to much higher levels of stim. I have worked dogs that show a reaction to low levels during obedience and work through the highest setting during bite work. A hard dog in drive will push through limits that will amaze a lot of people.


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Fun factoid for the day... the human epidermis layer is 10 - 15 cells thick. Dogs have an epidermis only 3 - 5 cells thick.
> 
> 
> Description and Physical Characteristics of Dogs - Dog Owners - Merck Veterinary Manual
> ...


Although it may be true about the skin being thinner than people, you are not accounting for the thick fur that most dogs have vs. us thin haired humans. The reason why some dogs may feel low levels more than we do may be for a variety of reasons such as we know what's coming and what to expect and they don't. That's the reason why properly conditioning a dog to the collar is so important. 

And as you can see from my previous postings, I am not critiquing your post to minimize that corrections can cause pain, but I think we need to be fair as well and not try to overexaggerate things like force free extremists like to do. 

On a side note, one tool force-free trainers use more than balanced trainers is psychological corrections. This is using verbal reprimands such as screaming at their dogs, negative punishment, etc. In some dogs, this form of psychological punishment may cause more harm to the dog and the dog/handler relationship than physical punishments. I also have a theory that force free trainers tend to become unhinged and blow up on their dogs more often than balanced trainers since they don't believe in physical correcting their dogs, so they internalize everything and just blow a fuse and start screaming at and berating their dogs. I have seen this with agility dog handlers a lot.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> @voodoolamb
> 
> *Ever notice people playing around with e collars don't really feel the lower level settings? Low levels that are working levels for many dogs? They are actually more sensitive than us.*
> 
> While on the whole I agree with this, dogs in drive have less sensitivity. While a dog may be more sensitive to lower levels when not stimulated or agitated, add drive and the same dog will not react to much higher levels of stim. I have worked dogs that show a reaction to low levels during obedience and work through the highest setting during bite work. A hard dog in drive will push through limits that will amaze a lot of people.


True! Much to be said for adrenaline, drive, and hard dogs. 

IME when you look at dogs as a whole though, the pet population, and across all breeds... those hard dogs are few and far between. Amazing what those elite can do though.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> Although it may be true about the skin being thinner than people, you are not accounting for the thick fur that most dogs have vs. us thin haired humans.


Now maybe the makers of the e collar I have purchased are total quacks... but I do recollect them sending me multiple sets of tips to use with their collar. Tips to use with various fur lengths so the contacts get through the fur and rest up against the dog's skin...



http://www.sportdog.com/support-topic/e-collars-setup-step-3-fit said:


> With your dog standing, center the Collar Receiver so the Contact Points are underneath your dog’s neck,* touching the skin*. If your dog has a long or thick coat, you have two options to ensure consistent contact: either trim the hair around the Contact Points or switch to the longer Contact Points included with your system.





http://www.gundogsupply.com/ecollars-article-01-proper-fit-of-e-collar.html said:


> In order for your dog to feel the sensation being transmitted, BOTH of those contact points *must be in good connection with the skin*. The *skin *acts as a conductor between the points.





https://www.dogtra.com/cache/DOC41_20170302_Training_Book.pdf?20170302054104 said:


> The collar should be fitted so that the stainless steel contact *points press firmly against the dog's skin.*


How is it that a dog's thick fur needs to accounted for when considering their sensitivity to e collar corrections? Beyond taking it into consideration when properly fitting said e collar I mean?



> The reason why some dogs may feel low levels more than we do may be for a variety of reasons such as we know what's coming and what to expect and they don't. That's the reason why properly conditioning a dog to the collar is so important.


Not sure if this comment about making sure dogs are conditioned to e collars is directed at me, but since you quoted me gotta say this is not my first rodeo. Been using e collars and other training equipment for close to 2 decades.

Still learning, but I think I am a bit beyond collar conditioning. 



> And as you can see from my previous postings, I am not critiquing your post to minimize that corrections can cause pain, but I think we need to be fair as well and not try to overexaggerate things like force free extremists like to do.


I actually never threw my hat into the ring on the pain thing. I find discussions concerning whether corrections cause pain vs discomfort vs annoyance or whether using e collars or prongs on themselves hurt or not to rarely go anywhere. It's one of those subjects people already have made their mind up on and will not be swayed. 

CowboysGirl asserted that perhaps dogs have thicker skin. That is a scientifically inaccurate statement. How can I be over exaggerating anything when all I did was share a known scientific fact and an opinion based on that finding published in a vet manual? 

Do you not find Merck veterinary manual to be a credible source? I'm pretty sure the print edition is in the 9th edition or so now...



> On a side note, one tool force-free trainers use more than balanced trainers is psychological corrections. This is using verbal reprimands such as screaming at their dogs, negative punishment, etc. In some dogs, this form of psychological punishment may cause more harm to the dog and the dog/handler relationship than physical punishments.


And for some dogs... it is the appropriate course of action. My current GSD is sensitive and will come up the leash on a prong correction, but he has responded beautifully to verbal corrections and negative punishment. He has reliable functional obedience.

But I guess the bond between us really sucks. I mean, LOOK at how I have psychologically destroyed this poor dog. 






Sickening. I know 



> I also have a theory that force free trainers tend to become unhinged and blow up on their dogs more often than balanced trainers since they don't believe in physical correcting their dogs, so they internalize everything and just blow a fuse and start screaming at and berating their dogs. I have seen this with agility dog handlers a lot.


Ya know... back before I was a fat old cow, I put some agility titles on my pups. I still train in the venue for funzies. I cannot say that I have ever witnessed someone blowing up on their dog, nor many in the sport tolerating such behavior from other handlers. I hope that if it was at an official event you reported it to the organizers. 

My experience with force free trainers is very different from yours. I suspect your sample size may be too small for your theory to have credence. 

Principles of sample size calculation

Look, I get it. Your agenda pushing has made it abundantly clear - you don't like the force-free concept. 

That's fine. It's not for every lifestyle and not for every dog. But lumping together all the force free trainers as likely to become unhinged is the same vein as saying balanced trainers or compulsion trainers are mean physical dog abusers. 

We could go back and forth all day sharing scientific research, expert opinions on training theory, and first hand accounts from dog owners and still not come up with a consensus on the "right" way to train. There are good trainers of each style, and bad trainers of each style. There are dogs a certain style of training will work for, and others that it will not. 

* for the record. I prefer to train motivationally without compulsion and use the lowest level of correction that will work for the dog I am working (and the situation) that the dog will respond to in order to proof commands and behaviors. If training were on a spectrum of Positive Only - Balanced - Compulsion, I'd be some where in the left between PO and Balanced.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

As a side note, this isn't a puppy being introduced to a leash being taught how to heel. Its a 3yr old dog being shown what its not going to do when its told to heel. Another side note, if I can do it, anyone can. Is there any kind of psych term or study to explain that?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> As a side note, this isn't a puppy being introduced to a leash being taught how to heel. Its a 3yr old dog being shown what its not going to do when its told to heel. Another side note, if I can do it, anyone can. Is there any kind of psych term or study to explain that?


LOL ... that used to be my favorite phrase ... but I was told to "Stop" saying that. >

Aww well ... people luv to take "extreme view points" a dog does not to need to be on a proper structured walk ... all the time??? But dog and owner do need to understand the "concept." Actually being able to "properly" walk your dog ...is more important than "most realize??" It was something I overlooked I over looked with my "Adventures with Rocky" but that ... is another topic.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Another side note, if I can do it, anyone can. Is there any kind of psych term or study to explain that?


Confirmation Bias.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

voodoolamb said:


> Confirmation Bias.


Hey, you're plagiarizing without proper citation.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey, you're plagiarizing without proper citation.


A Mind of Its Own: How Your Brain Distorts and Deceives by C. Fine



> Cordelia Fine introduces us to a brain we might not want to meet, a brain with a mind of its own. She illustrates *the brain's tendency toward self-delusion* as she explores how *the mind defends and glorifies the ego* by twisting and warping our perceptions.


Fixed it!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Holey egg heads Batman. I thought it just meant _*I*_ had my mind made up already. And you plagiarized that other poster that accused me of it, so you still get no credit! Lol.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I know that I and many others have _conformation bias_, they just won't admit it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

There is a lot of value to a structured heel or walk for a dog who is having issues with reactivity, aggression, chasing... It gives them something to think about and focus on other than all the stuff going on around them. Learn to make "good choices" as some people say. This isn't really something you'll use much for everyday walks- it lays the groundwork for additional work. Kind of like learning scales before you become soloist for Boston Pops. Basic stuff that isn't involved in a performance but is critical to it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> There is a lot of value to a structured heel or walk for a dog who is having issues with reactivity, aggression, chasing... It gives them something to think about and focus on other than all the stuff going on around them. Learn to make "good choices" as some people say. This isn't really something you'll use much for everyday walks- it lays the groundwork for additional work. Kind of like learning scales before you become soloist for Boston Pops. Basic stuff that isn't involved in a performance but is critical to it.


Thanks. :laugh2:


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Voodoolamb,

Are you a disciple of Jean Donaldson? lol First, when I have time later today I will offer a detailed rebuttal to your statements. Secondly, I am just as critical of compulsion trainers as I am of force-free trainers. Obviously, you haven't been paying attention to my postings. Lastly, I strongly believe in training initial behaviors motivationally with rewards then using judicious use of corrections in the proofing phase. So if I have an agenda, it's for using the full toolkit.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Wolfhund said:


> Voodoolamb,
> 
> Are you a disciple of Jean Donaldson? lol First, when I have time later today I will offer a detailed rebuttal to your statements. Secondly, I am just as critical of compulsion trainers as I am of force-free trainers. Obviously, you haven't been paying attention to my postings. Lastly, I strongly believe in training initial behaviors motivationally with rewards then using judicious use of corrections in the proofing phase. So if I have an agenda, it's for using the full toolkit.


Maybe instead of detailed rebuttaling, a few this is what I do's, or I've done some things like this, would be worth tossing out there.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> Voodoolamb,
> 
> Are you a disciple of Jean Donaldson? lol


Nope.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

voodoolamb said:


> Now maybe the makers of the e collar I have purchased are total quacks... but I do recollect them sending me multiple sets of tips to use with their collar. Tips to use with various fur lengths so the contacts get through the fur and rest up against the dog's skin...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I share the same philosophy as Voodoo. And I will say that I definitely agree that bringing up pain vs whatever the heck else you want to call it certainly went nowhere here

And I know a fair amount of agility people and most of them are hard core force free people. Also I think I can safely say that I have had a fairly up close and personal relationship with some pretty positive only people and they are not going into fits of rage at their dogs because they can't or don't correct them.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am wondering if there is anyone here who has worked/trained force free for the fully 100% with WL GSDs and lived with them (successfully) until well in adulthood, lets say, 5 years at least?
I have worked/trained force free with many dogs, my own and fosters and clients' dogs until I got my first WL GSD. That made me open up my mind.
And Wolfhund, stop insulting us older women. Many are in better shape than most people I know.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Wolfhund said:


> It could also be menopausal or hormonal because most agility people are older women who are out of shape. I know this is not politically correct, but this is true.


I could be wrong, but I'm getting the impression you're single and just got your first dog?


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Ok, I should have left the out of shape part out. But based on my personal observations older women seem to make up the majority of people that are into agility. I apologize if this offended anyone.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Wolfhund said:


> Ok, I should have left the out of shape part out. But based on my personal observations older women seem to make up the majority of people that are into agility. I apologize if this offended anyone.


Ha, ha, it is because we have earned enough materialistic resources over the years to pull this off or we have wealthy husbands! Agility is not cheap!! The youngsters among us, old agility women, lean on parents.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Wolfhund said:


> It could also be menopausal or hormonal because most agility people are older women who are out of shape. I know this is not politically correct, but this is true.


Funny... it doesn't look like our 2017 national champs look all that menopausal.

AKC National Agility Championship - American Kennel Club

Once again... put my first agility title on a dog at 14 for 4H. Been to lots of events in the past 2 decades since then.

Your narrow minded view of agility is not what i have seen first hand. 

Just what exactly IS your experience in the venue?


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

This piece in Psychology Today, which cites a study, backs up my observations: 

"The sample of dog-sport competitors was predominantly female (80 percent). In addition, the majority of participants (78 percent) fell into the age category of 45 to 74 years. There were very few participants between ages 18 and 24, or 75 years of age or above."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...o-participates-in-dog-sporting-events-and-why

I don't have much experience other than attending a few classes and watching YouTube videos.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Wolfhund said:


> This piece in Psychology Today, which cites a study, backs up my observations:
> 
> "The sample of dog-sport competitors was predominantly female (80 percent). In addition, the majority of participants (78 percent) fell into the age category of 45 to 74 years. There were very few participants between ages 18 and 24, or 75 years of age or above."
> 
> ...


So...... please stop this nonsense


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Wolfhund, 
Consider this a warning! 

Posts of the nature you are making are offensive and are not going to be tolerated. 

Plus, having done agility and watching some woman competitors I have a lot of respect for their ability to train and handle a dog. Not to mention the women that I have seen and trained with in IPO. Far better handlers and trainers than most men. 

Please be respectful, civil and polite.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

My advice to everyone is to put and end to the back forth comments. I would really appreciate that.

Thank you!


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## Wolfhund (Aug 17, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> @Wolfhund,
> Consider this a warning!
> 
> Posts of the nature you are making are offensive and are not going to be tolerated.
> ...


I will state for the record that I did not say anything bad about agility as a sport nor did I say anything bad about women dominating the sports. I was simply making a demographic observation and I was simply responding with an explanation to VoodooLamb related to training methods. I will not stand for people twisting my statements to suit their agenda.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Wolfhund said:


> I will state for the record that I did not say anything bad about agility as a sport nor did I say anything bad about women dominating the sports. I was simply making a demographic observation and I was simply responding with an explanation to VoodooLamb related to training methods. I will not stand for people twisting my statements to suit their agenda.


This is what you said:

*It could also be menopausal or hormonal because most agility people are older women who are out of shape. I know this is not politically correct, but this is true.*

Let's be very clear, this is saying something _bad_ about women. If you do not get this, then there is a problem. 

So we are clear, that is a very offensive statement. I do not know how to make it any clearer. 

If you have an issue with a member simply PM a mod or Admin. We will take it from there. Responses of this nature will not be tolerated. 

I am not here to debate this with you, and I can assure you that this is not open for debate or response. If you or anyone else has something to say, PM me.

The next post on this thread should be about a structured walk or on topic.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wolfhund said:


> This piece in Psychology Today, which cites a study, backs up my observations:
> 
> "The sample of dog-sport competitors was predominantly female (80 percent). In addition, the majority of participants (78 percent) fell into the age category of 45 to 74 years. There were very few participants between ages 18 and 24, or 75 years of age or above."
> 
> ...


Aww well ... it is the internet age. Information I found online is how I came up with my "Bubble Dog Protocol" ... many years ago. 

Accept at the time ... I had 116 lbs of "Pack Fighting, H/A" GSD on my hands?? And I was uh ..."ticked off!" And "fighting" with him ... wasn't working and got me sent to the ER, for stitches (breaking up one of five pack fights.) 

And Gunther (American Band Dawg) passed shortly following the last pack fight ... so Rocky got "Top Dog Status" by default! 

At this point ... Marilyn stepped in and said ... "either Rocky goes" or you have to "let it Go!" And with a big sigh ...many years ago ... "I let it go." And then since, I was still ticked ... I accidently started with Rules/Structure and Limitations .... much more than my Bully's every needed??? 

Sooo ...because of those changes ... when we had company over for the first time and Rocky saw them from "Place" and greeted them with a cold hard stare and a low growl??? Although, my blood ran cold ... he stated where he was and kept company out of his face! Most likely for a lot of folks ... he'd be done now??? But I saw it as an opportunity for payback as in this crap shall not stand! >

But ... what to do ... now??? I decided ... that one could solve my dogs issues ...better than me! So I too do a search but I just flat ruled all "PO" trainers out the gate ... I was not putting anyone at risk by tricking people into my dogs face with treats??? And at the time I thought "YouTube" was only about music videos??? 

I found "leerburg and Who Pets" and it was ...actually what I'd always done anyway ... except what if I said "No" instead of "Yes" to my I pet??? So that is what we did ... I just enforced a "No" by standing off sigh ... "Five Feet" automatically from strangers and for awhile Rocky went behind me ... if I felt the need to explain what I was doing to someone, we field lots of questions for awhile and his "Job" was ... deal with doing "nothing dog" no treats, no distractions, do nothing dog. We went out there "Walking" and finding people to ignore! I did use a muzzle at first but dropped it after a bit, when I could read him as ... there was no longer a need for one. He ... got that, I had his back. Worked out fine and it's the approach I take with every dog under my watch.
Long way of saying ... people learn in different ways these days ...or as I want to say ... there's always that guy/girl.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wolfhund said:


> On a side note, one tool force-free trainers use more than balanced trainers is psychological corrections. This is using verbal reprimands such as screaming at their dogs, .


Hey ... that's my neighbors "plopper downer!!" AFAIK they have never laid a hand on the dog?? But they are constantly "screaming at her!" 

Default behaviour is "down" I go to corrections??/ I found it annoying when I go over there ... I'm like get up dog, your fine. But ... I had no idea there would be blow back when I tried to walk her??? A slight tug sideways ... "correction" and "Bam" down to the ground she went??? Hmm ... this was unexpected???


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*ADMIN Lisa, one of the few with a whole lot of power........ I am here to back up Slamdunc. Wolfhund, watch yourself. You have been warned and continuing to argue with a Moderator is a good way to get yourself banned. *


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I like this exercise and don't see anything cruel or harmful being done to the dog in the video. You might be able to accomplish the same thing using a martingale or flat collar *depending on the dog* but the premise of the exercise is solid IMHO.

Let the dog know what you want, set clear boundaries, correct as needed. Of course the dog doesn't look happy...she's walking at a snails pace and she's not allowed to stop and sniff etc. etc. That's the whole idea of the exercise, to make the dog do what the handler wants her to do, as opposed to letting the dog be in charge. Once the dogs learns not to pull and the pace picks up she'll be happier and won't be dragging her owners down the street. Her reward is the walk, no treats needed.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Back a ways the guy demos a structured walk. This is a lot like what I use. My Aussie is an extremely high drive dog with endless energy. I use a 12" tab on the prong and an 8 foot leash on a flat nylon collar. I get the dog to focus on me. First with a " watch me" command and treat reward. Eventually I can use only the command with occasional reward. I think the close order walk does stress the dog initially but as the dog learns that this is a comfortable position that gets rewards occasionally, his stress goes down. I can clearly see this in our walks as my dog will carry her tail at low mast. 

I also add a release to " snif ". Here she is free to sniff within bounds of the leash, she is also free to go potty. Also free to pull as hard as she wants. This is great exercise for most of her body. I then recall her with our standard command and finish to heel position for more close order walking. So there are a number of individual commands connected together here. It doesn't all happen at once.

While I use the prong on the tab as shown with his short leash, I'm even more gently on the dog. Just a slight twitch or just rattle the chain is all that's needed.

When we run into problem dogs I pick up the pace and enforce the watch me with treats. Speed is generally your friend. This redirects the dog to me and away from the problem. She has to concentrate on where I'm going and there isn't time for her to get into overdrive. 

In streetwise training that I'm forced to do it's important that I have a solid return to heel command, especially when my dog is out at the end of the leash. This is a different command. It means come to heel quickly. I try and reward this but many times there just isn't time. I need to gather the leash, pick up the tab and decide what we are going to do. The worst case is a loose dog when we have no escape route. Here I have no choice as I simply do not want any contact with strange dogs. I don't want a dog fight and I don't trust loose dogs. I get very defensive and will yell, spray, stun or fight as required.

There is a lot going on doing this and it takes getting a solid bond with your dog. Along with obedience training. We go to weekly classes to proof our training and also for being around other dogs in a controlled situation. Doing take downs and stupid rolls and lots of leash yanking just destroys your bond. The dog begins to be afraid of you and loses trust in you then all kinds of problems arise.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

gmartinez3 said:


> I have tried incorporating positive reinforcement (food rewards when she is behind my left heel) but she just gets amped up and pulls slightly ahead.
> 
> If there are other training methods for structured walks, it would be gladly appreciated.


I think that with food rewards, it's important for the dog to understand why they're being rewarded. Shaping behaviour is good for foundations, so if you were in the backyard or in the house practicing it, I think it would be more beneficial because the level of distraction would be next to nil and you would be building an understanding for your dog. It sets them up for success rather than failure when you start off with small steps (something I'm still working on...).

For example, using a command such as "with me" for having your dog walk loose leash along you. As they walk calmly, you could reward them periodically and say to them, "Good With Me!". As they learn to respect the leash boundary, then that's when you add distractions. It's also important to teach them to focus and engage with you. A walk is a great time to bond and enjoy some time together in a positive, relaxed manner. I think my favourite thing about walking with my pup is that every now and then, she always looks back up at me and it looks like she's smiling. It makes me smile, too.

That being said, I will use the prong if I know I'm going into a highly stimulating environment. My girl is 65lbs... she's literally half my weight and she still has growing to do. If she wants, she can easily pull me around. And if something is more self-rewarding than my praise or any treats, then I'll be eating asphalt. In those situations I personally don't make the correction myself. I let her self correct on the dead ring. I'm hoping that eventually she'll learn that lunging forward after something without being given permission is an undesirable behaviour, and that she needs to look to me and "ask" if it's okay to do it. We'll see what happens. :grin2:


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Today's Sunday trail walk in the forest: right out of the car I play fetch with her to bait her with a toy, so she knows it is always an option and it takes away some of her intensity in her surroundings. I put the toy in my front pack there after. We came up on several off leash dogs. As soon as I see them I have her come to me and sit on the other side that the dog. Owners are generally putting their dogs on leash when they see me blocking her. She knows the reward as soon as the dog passes; a ball thrown in the opposite direction away from the other dog. If an off leash dog doesn't mind his owners, I use a referee whistle to startle it, while it means a recall for Deja. These techniques work very well. I am sure oher situations will occur that require another approach.


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