# Slacker!



## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Tonight was Mikka’s first night at obedience class…looks like she’s all pooped out!


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

aww so cute! how did class go?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Nice she has her own matching pillow on her sofa!!!


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I call that spoiled!


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

sagelfn said:


> how did class go?


Awful. I was hoping no one would ask. :smirk:

I’m almost embarrassed to write this post, particularly after I’ve been bragging up my Mikka on this board!! I know this is kinda long but if anyone has any suggestions it would be much appreciated! 

We got off to a bad start. Mikka HATES the car. She has hating car rides since she was a baby. In fact, she threw up on the way home from the breeders when we first picked her up. I don’t know if she doesn’t like the car because she throws up or whether she is so scared of the car and that makes her throw up. We have been working on this…very short rides and whatnot but it’s not working. 

Anyway, we had a very difficult time getting her into the car. A good friend of mine went with me – she drove. I sat in the back seat with Mikka to keep her company, plus hold the barf-bucket, should it be necessary. It was a long ride. This school is on the opposite side of town – a good 40 minute drive. But, we made it all the way there and she did not throw up! I could tell she was nervous though, plus, she drooled a lot (I did give her a ginger supplement before we left). Now, I could go to a closer school but this trainer is supposed to be the best one in Albuquerque (I’ve heard she’s one of the best in the entire southwest). She used to breed GSD’s and knows a lot about the breed. Plus, she is even from Germany – not that that matters. 

Once we got there Mikka did not want to go inside. I had to drag her through the door. Of course we were running a little late so everyone was already there….they must have thought I was some kind of monster pulling on my poor dog like that. 

At first, Mikka was more interested in the other dogs/people than learning anything. Still, I could tell that she was extremely nervous about this new place. Then the instructor came and took Mikka and used her as a “model”. That did it. After that Mikka just wanted to cower next to me and wouldn’t do anything. I had very high value treats too (grilled chicken, which she loves!) and she want no part of it. I don’t think either of us learned a thing!! Not that this matters but I am pretty sure Mikka was the youngest student in the class. All of the other dogs looked to be adults. 

Because we were late, our spot was near the door. Every time someone came in or went out of the door Mikka lost her attention – what little attention she did have. Toward the end of class she was growling when someone came in and walk by us (there was a class starting after our class so people/dogs were coming and going). 

When we left the instructor walked out to the car with us. She said next week come early so I can take Mikka for a little walk before class starts. She knew I had trouble getting Mikka into a car. So, she showed me how to do it. She literally pulled Mikka by the collar and threw her into the car. I’m not sure I can do that. First, I don’t know if I am physically able to do it and second I’m not sure it’s the proper thing do to (shouldn’t Mikka WANT to go into the car by herself?). There must be a better way to get her into a vehicle. Another problem is that we own an SUV (last night we had my friends car). My SUV is a higher up than a car, which would make throwing her into the vehicle a little more difficult for me (I have a few medical issues and I can’t lift heavy dogs). I didn’t want to get into all of that medical stuff with the instructor so I didn’t say anything. 

Also, she sold me a prong collar and told me to use it when training and for classes. When I got home I showed the collar to DH. He said “You’re not putting that thing on my dog!” I see a conflict ahead. 

BTW, Mikka threw up – *a lot* - on the way home


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sorry that training class was so hard on her. There are a couple things in here that would bother me with this trainer.

1) She should have seen how nervous Mikka was so taking her away from her security (you) to use as a model was wrong.
2) A stranger picking her up and throwing her in the car must have put her right over the top.
3) Why a prong collar? I have one. I like it. But I started using it for a specific reason, not just because. So I would ask her why that collar at this time.

I do agree that you should get there early and walk her around but I might also take her when there weren't any training sessions...kind of like visiting the vet just to get her used to it.

She is just a puppy so that doesn't surprise me that she was more interested in everything else around her. Jax is 2 and still has to be reminded that I exist. 

Keep in mind that if you are rushed and upset that she will pick up on it so that could have added to her nervousness. Is it possible to carry a ramp with you for Mikka to climb up? Or even a step stool so that she can walk up? Look on doversaddlery for the stools riders use to get on their horses. The two step is fairly light, sturdy and small enough for an SUV. 

If you are still uncomfortable with the trainer after a couple of sessions, regardless of her reviews, then maybe you should look for a new one.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

She sounds a LOT like my puppers. He hates car rides, and will drool and/or barf even on short ones. I've been taking him someplace new (or old, pet store etc.) at least once a week since I brought him home at 8 weeks. He is still not happy with it. Therefore, I have to take him in the truck and use a travel crate in the bed of the truck. That way when he barfs, it is in the crate and it gives him a little comfort being in a confined area. 

When we started classes he drooled and looked really ill for the first 15 minutes. He would not take treats and would pretty much sit and drool. What I did was make sure I got to class at least 15 minutes early - walked him around outside, worked on last weeks 'homework'. Then I'd bring him in and work him again. My instructor said that sour stomach made him have a sour taste in his mouth. Therefore, I have a peppermint that I give him to lick after the ride. He only takes a few licks, I don't give it to him. Now his recovery time is much shorter, and he isn't nervous in the class. 

Which brings me to throwing him in the vehicle. Because Hondo doesn't like the ride, he would not load. He would literally lay flat on the ground behind the truck and I'd have to lift him into the bed. I'm not that strong and he is a 7 month old GSD that weights 73 lbs. So it wasn't pretty. It was mostly getting his front end up and then using my body to lock him in place then reach down for a leg or two to finish the job. Still using my body and legs to keep from pulling on his limbs. It truly was a mess, but it got the job done. BUT! There is a silver lining! As of last Friday, Hondo has started jumping into the truck! He isn't allowed to complete the task as I don't want to stress out his joints -so he'll leap and I'll grab his back legs and hoist him up. He goes straight into the kennel. I don't know what brought this on. I guess he just figured that no matter what, he was going in. Maybe he just got tired of me embarrassing him. I always gave the command 'load' - and then I'd start my horrible dance with him. Now I say 'load' and up he jumps. It is sooooo cool. 

I NEVER let him jump out/off the truck. He always has to 'wait'. Then as he heads for the ground, I grab him around the gullet and help him down.


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

The throwing up could also be an age thing. Before my dog turned 1, he could not even take a 5 minute ride without throwing up. As he got older he got a lot better about it, now (at 2 yrs old) he can go for hours in the car without throwing up. I think a big part of it was that he began sticking his head out the window to "sniff the sights" and that occupied him enough that he wasn't thinking about how bumpy and uncomfortable the car ride was. 

When he was 1, and just coming out of his barfy phase, we found that using a crate in the car helped too. Having a small enclosed space to be confined to made him feel more secure, so he wasn't just being thrown all about the backseat, he could actually brace himself against his crate if he needed.

Regarding the training class, it sounds like Mikka was thrust from one bad situation (uncomfortable car ride) to another (class with strange people and dogs trying to take her away from her mom) - not saying any of it is your fault, it's just from the dog's POV. She was probably very stressed out and nervous, like you said, and it sounds like she just shut down, especially after the trainer took her away from you. That's probably why she wouldn't even go for a high value treat like chicken - a normally food-motivated dog that will not take food is a sure-fire sign of stress. 

I think next week you should probably go much earlier, and not only walk around outside, but inside the building (if allowed) so that she can sniff around and check things out, on her own terms. Don't drag her around, let her lead and follow, and she will feel much more comfortable because she now "knows" the area. Bring some more high value treats too, so that she has more positive associations with the training area.

And as people have previously said - forcibly throwing the dog in the car is not helping, and not the right way to go. The dog should WANT to go in by herself, like you said. I find the best way to motivate dogs to do this is food (or toys if that's their cup of tea). You should always be finding ways to motivate your dog to do what you want, not physically forcing them. 

And a prong on a 6 month old dog...mmm. 6 months is the bare minimum age for when our trainer lets us use them. They're good for corrections, but you can't correct a dog for something that she doesn't know, which sounds like the case since you just started the class. And you certainly can't correct her for being stressed, or nervous. I only use prongs in obedience for proofing, and even then rarely, as a correction on a flat collar or a verbal correction has always done me just fine.

On the bright side, Mikka looks pooped! Bet she slept well that night!

ETA: Have your DH try on the prong on his leg or arm. The prong looks scary, but it's really not that bad. It's certainly better than a choke collar. Prongs definitely have their place in training, I just think it might be later on down the road for you and Mikka.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I'm sorry that training class was so hard on her. There are a couple things in here that would bother me with this trainer.
> 
> 1) She should have seen how nervous Mikka was so taking her away from her security (you) to use as a model was wrong.
> 2) A stranger picking her up and throwing her in the car must have put her right over the top.
> ...


*Very excellent points! Thank you!! I should explain a couple of things, though*.

_She should have seen how nervous Mikka was so taking her away from her security (you) to use as a model was wrong. _ *A while back, my breeder told me something about this trainer. She and the trainer know each other quite well. My breeder trains her dogs with this lady. My breeder said to tell the trainer that Mikka was one of her dogs and she (the trainer) would pay extra attention to Mikka. In fact, when I first came in the door the trainer asked if Mikka was one of Jana’s dogs. I nodded yes and she got all excited. The extra attention is fine. However, I do agree with you - I wish that she didn’t do it - last night....Lets wait until she's been there a while and settles in, so to speak. *

_Why a prong collar? I have one. I like it. But I started using it for a specific reason, not just because. So I would ask her why that collar at this time_*. **From what I understand, I am to do a quick pull on it when she does something bad during training. Plus, use it on walks when she starts pulling. It is not to be worn all the time – just during walks and training. Thank God! *

_Keep in mind that if you are rushed and upset that she will pick up on it so that could have added to her nervousness._ *I very much agree with this. I’ll work on it, as I probably was a little stressed. I knew we’d be late & I was certain Mikka was going to get sick before we even got there! * _Is it possible to carry a ramp with you for Mikka to climb up? Or even a step stool so that she can walk up?_ *Excellent idea!!! I will look into getting a ramp of some sort. How do I get her to walk up it, though? Will it come naturally or does she need to be taught how? I wonder if DH could make a ramp – he’s pretty handy at that sort of thing. I've thought about getting a ramp anyway because she might have bad hips (Pennhip report was not good - but that's another post). *


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Sorry it didn't go well, I agree with what Jax said.

Hopefully a couple of trips there letting her feel the place out will calm her down and she(and you) can enjoy it


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

She may be the best trainer around, but based on what you said about your experience with her, I'm not impressed! 

Halo is the first puppy I've ever had who got carsick, and boy did she ever. Even a 5 minute drive would do it, and it was a half hour to her puppy class. So I brought extra towels for the crate and changed them out for the drive home. She also drooled a lot. But she did grow out of it, and your guy may too. 

I agree with what everyone else said. I don't like the idea that she wants to immediately slap a prong collar on a 6 month old puppy who is just starting her first OB class. At that age I teach with tons of positive reinforcement, rewarding the behavior I like. I have prongs too, and I started using one on Halo a few months ago. For the first 8 or 9 months I taught her what I DID want her to do, and then once that foundation was in place I started adding what I DON'T want her to do (pulling on leash, barking at other dogs) to our training program. I really don't need to use the prong to correct her much because I've already done all that other training first, but it's there if I need it.

But Halo is also a very confident puppy, who was well socialized from a young age, who has been in classes since she was 13 weeks old (we're almost done with our 5th OB class), has had hours and hours of work, over 200 miles of training walks, and is not afraid of ANYTHING. I've worked her on paths with joggers running by, skateboards, bicycles whizzing past, in front of supermarkets with automatic doors and carts going by, at strip malls, outside Starbucks. With a younger dog that has never been in a class environment around a bunch of strange dogs I really think it's the wrong approach to introduce a corrective collar right away. Mikka already hates the car - even getting her to the class is stressful, so class itself should be fun. 

Is this a big class, or would you be able to give her a little more space from the other dogs? Maybe you can talk to the trainer about that since she's so much younger. Some places also have barriers that you can put up, which are great for blocking the view of other dogs. As the dog gets more confortable in that environment and better able to focus, you can move the barriers out of the way. In Halo's previous class there were a couple of barkers and the trainer or an assistant would would just calmly go grab a barrier and set it between the dog and whoever it was barking at. 

Usually the first night of class is the most chaotic since everything is new - new place, new people, new dogs. Mine are always a bit crazy that first night, but each week should be better, especially if you're diligently doing your homework between classes. Her attention span should continue to improve as she matures too, so try to keep your expectations reasonable in the meantime.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry about your experience. I don't have much to add to what others have said. I will say, I was told not to use a prong on a fearful or aggressive dog. I have a prong and I use it on my "puller" but he's neither fearful nor aggressive. He's pretty confident in new situations but I spent A LOT of time socializing him. I've heard it can make a fearful dog more fearful and an aggressive dog more aggressive. So in that sense, I disagree with your trainer (who should have known that) and agree with your husband.

Good luck to you.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

*Mikka actually did go to puppy school when she was about 15 weeks old. It was at a different training facility. She only went a couple of times though because she was always throwing up. It wasn’t pretty. The few times we did go, she seemed to really enjoy herself once we got there and she settled down. But it was all play and very little work – just basic commands and mostly for socialization. *

*After reading everyone’s comments, I’m wondering whether or not I should continue with this class. I wonder if it would be better to wait until Mikka is a little older – or until she no longer gets sick in the car. Poor Mikka. She was hugely stressed last night! At one point, she tried to hide behind my friend. Janet was sitting on a folding chair along the wall and Mikka tried to get under the chair and behind Janet’s legs. *

*When we left last night the trainer said to me “You must have a heck of a time with this dog. She does not obey.” I told her that was not true and that she was just very nervous! That’s when she told me to come early (perhaps she did not clearly understand the situation). Mikka is actually a very smart dog. She does know several commands and is generally a very, very good girl. She just likes her home. DH calls her a “Homebody”. Mikka really does not like to go ANYWHERE. Even when we’re out for our walks, as soon as we turn the corner to head home, she starts pulling. ***Then, as soon as we walk in the door she heads straight to her crate and goes as far back in it as possible – this happens every single time. She’s never really gotten excited about going for her walks, either! And we walk her several times a day! When I get her leash, she try’s to hide. Once we get out the door and start down the sidewalk she is fine and she seems to enjoy meeting new people/dogs along the way. But as soon as we start to head home (or when she can see the house) she pulls, pulls, pulls! She can’t get home fast enough. It’s very strange! *

****I should add that she may be associating the crate with her morning walk. My hubby takes her for a walk in the morning before he leaves for work. When they get back home he puts her back in her crate. Last week, we started leaving her out of her crate for the hour or so between him leaving for work and me getting up. I thought she was making a beeline to the crate because she was scared of something from the walk but maybe she is just doing it because it’s what she does with DH. The thing is, if she’s smart enough to figure out she goes into the crate for DH she should know that I do not put her in the crate after I walk her. I dunno….but I’m rambling again….thanks for listening! *


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Was your dog shy, insecure, or reserved as a puppy? Sometimes, there can be a genetic component to this. And I'm wondering if the "throwing up" stopped you from socializing her more which can lead to the anxiety/stress she feels in new situations...not judging, just wondering.

I have another dog who had car sickness from the time he was a puppy. He eventually got better as he got older but he still has episodes if it's more than an hour. Believe me, we had to work up to that time period...LOL. He didn't get as much exposure to new experiences as my other dog due to the constant throwing up. He's still pretty good with new places because he LOVES other dogs and people but it was a challenge to get him into the car because he associated it with being sick. He's 100% better with more exposure but I used to have to drag and lift him into the car for the first year I had him. It got better for me and maybe it will for you, too.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> She just likes her home. DH calls her a “Homebody”. Mikka really does not like to go ANYWHERE. Even when we’re out for our walks, as soon as we turn the corner to head home, she starts pulling. ***Then, as soon as we walk in the door she heads straight to her crate and goes as far back in it as possible – this happens every single time. She’s never really gotten excited about going for her walks, either! And we walk her several times a day! When I get her leash, she try’s to hide.


That sounds like it could be a socialization issue. Personally, carsickness would not be enough to keep me from continuing to take my puppy to classes. It might be months before she outgrows her carsickness, or she may never. Not exposing her to car rides is probably not going to make it any better because she never gets the opportunity to get used to the feeling. But in any case this may not be the best class for her, so that's something you'll have to think about. Are there other options nearby?


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

IllinoisNative said:


> Was your dog shy, insecure, or reserved as a puppy? Sometimes, there can be a genetic component to this. And I'm wondering if the "throwing up" stopped you from socializing her more which can lead to the anxiety/stress she feels in new situations...not judging, just wondering.
> 
> I have another dog who had car sickness from the time he was a puppy. He eventually got better as he got older but he still has episodes if it's more than an hour. Believe me, we had to work up to that time period...LOL. He didn't get as much exposure to new experiences as my other dog due to the constant throwing up. He's still pretty good with new places because he LOVES other dogs and people but it was a challenge to get him into the car because he associated it with being sick. He's 100% better with more exposure but I used to have to drag and lift him into the car for the first year I had him. It got better for me and maybe it will for you, too.


*No. I don’t believe she was reserved, insecure, or shy as a pup. We got her on Christmas Eve. I had 12 family members coming and going all throughout the holiday season and the first few weeks of the new year, so new faces were around her for her first 4 weeks with us. Then everyone left :happyboogie: But while they were here she did wonderfully. My nephew even gave her her first bath – at the time, she hardly knew him. Mikka LOVES people. She really does. *

*Did the throwing up stop me from socializing her more? Regretfully, that is probably the case. So, are you thinking she is throwing up because she knows (or thinks) I’ll stop whatever it is I am doing with her? Or did I miss something? *


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think she's throwing up because the motion of the car is upsetting her tummy.  Is she in a crate? 

Socialization at home is not the same as getting her out in the world. At home she's in a safe familiar environment, so even if she's being exposed to a lot of people (which is GREAT!) she's really not being exposed to a lot of new experiences, and I think that's probably why she's overwhelmed in class. Continuing to keep her out of classes and/or avoiding car rides isn't going to help her get past that, but you do want her new experiences to be as positive as you can make them. Are there any classes near you that are geared towards older puppies/younger dogs? 

It strikes me as strange that this trainer commented that Mikka doesn't obey. :thinking: She's 6 months old! And isn't that why she's enrolled in obedience class?!?! It bothers me that she's not taking that into consideration, and that other than part of a puppy class several months ago in a different location, this is all brand new to Mikka. I don't care how perfect she is at home, obeying under those conditions is completely different, and much harder, even for a more mature dog. 

As far as a ramp, you will probably have to show her how to use it. I used one for my geriatric girl Sneaker, and the instructions that came with it suggested you lay it flat on the ground first and get them to walk back and forth along it, using food lures if necessary to get the dog used to walking on it. After that I put it on a very slight incline (curb height is perfect) and had her do it some more, working very gradually up to full height. And then when we tried it on the car for the first few times, one of us stood at each side of the ramp so she couldn't jump off or try and get into the car by going around it.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think she's throwing up because the motion of the car is upsetting her tummy.  Is she in a crate?
> 
> Socialization at home is not the same as getting her out in the world. At home she's in a safe familiar environment, so even if she's being exposed to a lot of people (which is GREAT!) she's really not being exposed to a lot of new experiences, and I think that's probably why she's overwhelmed in class. Continuing to keep her out of classes and/or avoiding car rides isn't going to help her get past that, but you do want her new experiences to be as positive as you can make them. Are there any classes near you that are geared towards older puppies/younger dogs?
> 
> ...


Debbie,

Thanks so much for all of your help with this!! I really appreciate it! 

I did look for another class geared more toward Mikka’s age group. I couldn’t find anything. There are puppy classes, which I think she is too old/big for now. And then we jump to Beginning Obedience. I could not find anything in between. 

Janet, my friend who accompanied me to the class, did not like the trainer one bit. She called me last night and we discussed the class in great detail. Janet sat along the sidelines and observed everything. She was not too impressed and she is trying to talk me out of taking Mikka back there. She was “horrified” by the way Mikka was thrown into the car. Plus, she knows what a good dog Mikka is and was very upset by some of the trainer’s remarks.

At any rate, I decided to continue with the class. Mikka may not learn a thing but I think it is important that she gets out in the world – like you said. We’ll have to just deal with the carsickness as best we can. Hopefully, it will get better very soon!!! This morning, I took Mikka for a very short car ride. I brought Buddy, our other dog who LOVES car rides, with. I had Buddy get into the car first. Mikka jumped right in after him!! :laugh: We just went around the block and she did just fine – the two of them played in the backseat. I’m not even sure Mikka realized she was in the dang car! We’re thinking Buddy might be the key to the car problem. Mikka will follow Buddy anywhere. It’s just too bad I can’t bring Buddy to classes with me!!

Also, no, I do not use car-crates. However, I am in the process of getting a harness (seatbelt) for her. And thanks for the ramp tips, too!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I was going to suggest bringing Buddy with you to class but just leaving him in the car, but depending on the weather there, that may not be a great option. And I love that you thought to try that and it worked - maybe enough trips around town with them together will get her past her aversion to car rides, and as she matures she will hopefully outgrow the sickness. Crates can sometimes help because when confined the dog isn't jostled around so much.

BTW, I like your friend Janet! :thumbup: If you do take her back, be Mikka's advocate - do not let the trainer take her leash if you'd rather she didn't or are concerned about what she might do. Be firm and say you'd rather she show you with another dog and then you try it yourself. Don't do anything you're not comfortable with just because that's how the trainer says it should be done. If her methods are too correction based, drop out and find another class. Right now training should be fun, for both of you, so if Mikka is not enjoying it that should tell you that maybe it's time to find another approach.


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## aball (Jul 17, 2002)

as far as ramps, i have one for when i had older dogs who couldn't jump. them make nice light weight ones from plastics and aluminum. building your own might entail using wood which would be very heavy. 

good luck! and keep us informed. although i don't have a puppy i'm interested in your ordeals and how to help them for when i do.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> ....Right now training should be fun, for both of you, so if Mikka is not enjoying it that should tell you that maybe it's time to find another approach.


But don't forget that training can be fun for both of you even when corrections are used. Any correction should be sized to the age/size of the dog and the misbehavior that is being told to the dog that they didn't do it right. A voice correction (AH Ha! for example) can be an effective correction esp. with puppies. And a correction should only be used when we are at least pretty sure the dog "knows" the command.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> But don't forget that training can be fun for both of you even when corrections are used. Any correction should be sized to the age/size of the dog and the misbehavior that is being told to the dog that they didn't do it right. A voice correction (AH Ha! for example) can be an effective correction esp. with puppies. And a correction should only be used when we are at least pretty sure the dog "knows" the command.


I don't disagree with your point, but did you read the OPs description of the class and Mikka's reaction? My comments were not general, they were specific to this particular situation. This puppy is stressed out, and putting a prong collar on her when she's in a brand new environment and correcting her for not behaving the way the trainer thinks she should is not going to help this situation one bit - we're not talking about verbal corrections here. Mikka hates car rides, did not want to go into the building, and was nervous and cowered behind her owner once inside. And when it came time to go home, the trainer picked her up and threw her into the car. :angryfire: Everything about that is wrong.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Mikkas Mom,

Our pup also got sick as a dog (heh heh) when he was very little even when we drove him home from the breeder. 

And we found that there are two main causes of car sickness - one is what we expect it to be - the motion of the car upsets their balance in the ear and eventually leads to throwing up. This one you can get some mild medicine from your vet for. I suggest that you talk to your vet.

But the other cause is just nervousness and over excitement - this one we worked on by having baron in the car in the driveway and petting him and playing with him there. then we progressed to rolling the car down the driveway a few times and next we actually drove around the cul-de-sac we live on. In other words if it was nervousness build him up to it very slowly and let your pup see how much fun a car is.

Could also be a little of both of course and you might have to treat both causes.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't disagree with your point, but did you read the OPs description of the class and Mikka's reaction? My comments were not general, they were specific to this particular situation. This puppy is stressed out, and putting a prong collar on her when she's in a brand new environment and correcting her for not behaving the way the trainer thinks she should is not going to help this situation one bit - we're not talking about verbal corrections here. Mikka hates car rides, did not want to go into the building, and was nervous and cowered behind her owner once inside. And when it came time to go home, the trainer picked her up and threw her into the car. :angryfire: Everything about that is wrong.


I went back and reread the first part of this thread. The car ride was stressful for Mikka, no doubt about that. Sounds like the trainer might be an old school German - plus evidently she was aware of the dogs breeding and probably felt like she was familiar with the pup.

Nothing wrong with a prong collar, BTW. They are actually easier on the dog than a regular slip/choke collar. Too many people think that a prong collar always mean cruelty and pain and punishing the dog. Not so!

Would you recommend a regular flat collar for a 6 mo and growing GSD and a woman handler? I wouldn't! It could be hard to control the dog depending on the size, strengh and experience of the handler.

As far as "throwing her in the car", I didn't quite see that in the message; but if the dog was so reluctant to get in the car perhaps it was a need to "lift" the dog or help her get into the car. If the dog doesn't hop up into the car, what would you do with her?

Doesn't sound all that terrible to me. At least not from what I read, although of course I wasn't there.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> As far as "throwing her in the car", I didn't quite see that in the message; but if the dog was so reluctant to get in the car perhaps it was a need to "lift" the dog or help her get into the car.





Miikkas mom said:


> She knew I had trouble getting Mikka into a car. So, she showed me how to do it. She literally pulled Mikka by the collar and threw her into the car.


:shrug: The OP said she "threw her". 

And I realize there is nothing wrong with prong collars - I have them and I sometimes use them. I do not use slip collars, however, not since Sneaker back 1986. For a 6 month old puppy who is not a horrendous puller I WOULD recommend a flat collar. For one that pulls, I'd recommend a front hook harness such as the Sense-ation, which I also own and use. If you re-read my first post in this thread you'll see how I'd train a puppy at this age.  It works quite well, just this week we were out on our usual 4 mile training walk at the lake and a woman commented on how well behaved Halo is and wanted to know how I got her to "heel like that". 

I wasn't there to witness what happened at the class either, but the OP was, and so was her friend who was "horrified" and "very upset".


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Nothing wrong with a prong collar, BTW. They are actually easier on the dog than a regular slip/choke collar. Too many people think that a prong collar always mean cruelty and pain and punishing the dog. Not so!


I also use a prong collar. Nothing is wrong with them and I find them more humane than the slip collars. But I would not use them on a FEARFUL puppy. IMO, that makes the situation worse. Every trainer I've worked with said you don't use them on fearful or aggressive dogs. It exacerbates both situations.

JMO.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :shrug: The OP said she "threw her".
> 
> And I realize there is nothing wrong with prong collars - I have them and I sometimes use them. I do not use slip collars, however, not since Sneaker back 1986. For a 6 month old puppy who is not a horrendous puller I WOULD recommend a flat collar. For one that pulls, I'd recommend a front hook harness such as the Sense-ation, which I also own and use. If you re-read my first post in this thread you'll see how I'd train a puppy at this age.  It works quite well, just this week we were out on our usual 4 mile training walk at the lake and a woman commented on how well behaved Halo is and wanted to know how I got her to "heel like that".
> I wasn't there to witness what happened at the class either, but the OP was, and so was her friend who was "horrified" and "very upset".


Since neither of us were there, I guess we are both interpreting what actually happened.

Was the OP's dog pulling? I don't know, but again there is nothing wrong with a prong collar - they actually work much better and give a better correction with more notice to the dog. And if you ever put one on your wrist and tug it you would find they don't dig in as so many people think. And naturally the handler is not required to give a hard correction with one any more than you do with a choke collar of flat collar.

Do we know why her friend was so "horrified" and "very upset"?

Most of the harnesses that I have seen are not designed to *train *a dog to walk on a loose leash; but do restrict a dog so that they do walk better while the harness is on the dog.

BTW, there are many, many ways to train a 6 mo puppy (as well as any other age also) and a good trainer will adopt his/her methods to the individual dog and handler.

For example my current dog is as hard headed and exuberant as any that I have ever seen. Corrections do not have any "cowing' impact as on every other GSD that I have had (about 7 of them) had. I would and do train him VERY differently than I did my older dogs (thru AKC Utility). He also responds very differently with food treats than some of my earlier dogs so we can train differently in this regard also.

I think the OP should try a couple more classes to see how her dog does in this class and then make her decision about what to do regarding this trainer


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

IllinoisNative said:


> But I would not use them on a FEARFUL puppy. IMO, that makes the situation worse. Every trainer I've worked with said you don't use them on fearful or aggressive dogs. It exacerbates both situations.
> JMO.


What does "fearful" have to do with it? Many successful trainers do use prong collars - but many people think that using a prong collar automatically means you have to be rough and use hard jerks on the leash. You don't!

BTW, many people that I run across in obedience seem to equate misbehaving dogs with either one or both of those descriptions that you used in your message. Fearful and/or aggressive dogs. In fact many would group these two things together - a fear aggressive dog who is aggressive because he/she is fearful!


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

codmaster said:


> What does "fearful" have to do with it? Many successful trainers do use prong collars - but many people think that using a prong collar automatically means you have to be rough and use hard jerks on the leash. You don't!


I go to a German Shepherd club. I was told by multiple trainers that a prong makes a fearful dog worse. I'm never rough with the prong and neither were they.



> BTW, many people that I run across in obedience seem to equate misbehaving dogs with either one or both of those descriptions that you used in your message. Fearful and/or aggressive dogs.


Fearful dogs can be aggressive. True. Fearful aren't always aggressive. True. Aggressive dogs don't have to be fearful. True.

Either way, most trainers say not to use a prong collar. It's also not recommended for leash reactivity. It can make the situation worse. I'm going by these trainers experience. IMO, it has nothing to do with being rough with the dog. A prong collar is self correcting. IMO, I've never seen anyone jerk their dog in training classes or otherwise with a prong.

IMO, a fearful puppy is not a candidate for a prong collar. There are other methods to draw this puppy out of it's shell. I'm going by this individual case and what this poster posted.

I use a prong with one of my dogs who tends to be a puller. He's very confident in new situations and nothing phases him. My other dog would shut down under a prong. It's not appropriate for every dog. I agree with you about having a trainer evaluate what would work for this particular situation. Based on what this poster told us, a prong should not be used, IMO.

IMO, teaching her dog to walk on a loose lead is not her first priority. It's trying to get a fearful dog in and out of the car and to experience and feel comfortable in new places so that she can train her. A prong is not needed for that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Most of the harnesses that I have seen are not designed to *train *a dog to walk on a loose leash; but do restrict a dog so that they do walk better while the harness is on the dog.


As far as I'm concerned NO collar or harness is designed to train a dog to walk on a loose leash, that's what the human on the other end of the leash is for.  What I like about the Sense-ation harness is that it gives you a bit more control than a flat collar, so it's good for a dog (or older puppy) who is too big and strong to adequately control on a flat collar, _while you work on training leash skills_. 

Ideally, you'd start out a young puppy on a flat collar and train it to walk politely without any other devices. But if you missed that boat because you did not get your dog as a young puppy, or because you failed to put enough time and effort into teaching leash skills before it got big and strong enough to drag you off your feet (which is what happened with Keefer), then a front hook harness usually works well. 

Halo was on a flat collar during training at home, out on walks, and in classes until she was at 9 or 10 months old. I use prongs on both dogs at the park because they are SO excited when we get there that I couldn't control them otherwise, but I do consider it a crutch that I hope some day to not need. Probably not any time soon though, the two of them on leash together are pretty horrid, lol! :wild:


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

First, before I forget, what is a “flat collar”? Are you guys talking about a normal type of collar or is it something else? 

Buddy is not here all the time. He is actually my dad’s dog. However, since my mom died he spends a great deal of time at my house. My dad’s health is not too good and he has a hard time taking care of him. Anyway, Buddy probably could ride along to the training classes. He stays/waits in the car very well. Plus, Janet will be going with me again next week (if I can talk her into it) so she can run out and check on him too. 

Since my mom passed away, Janet has become like a surrogate mom/grandma to my family. She actually gave Mikka to us as a Christmas gift. She knew my son wanted a puppy and asked me if it would be OK for her to get one for the family. When I told her it would be fine, I had no idea how expensive GSD’s were!! After I found out the prices of the dogs I told her “no way”, but it was too late, she had her mind made up! She took me to the breeders place and I picked Mikka out. So, Janet does have an interest in Mikka’s well being. She was “horrified” because she thought the trainer was “rude and abrasive”....her words, not mine. At one point, the trainer kicked a dog. It was not Mikka but another dog she was using as a model. She was trying to get the dog to sit. The dog WAS sitting but it was not sitting straight enough, I guess. So, she kicked it in the hind legs to get it to straighten up. This really ruffled Janet’s feathers!!! Although, I should add that I do not think she kicked the dog very hard. It was more of a “directionally” type of kick. But still I didn’t particularly like that either. I can only image what the owner of that dog must have been thinking..... 

As far as "throwing her in the car"....Well, she pretty much threw Mikka in the car. All I can tell you is when she grabbed a hold of Mikka’s collar, Mikka’s front legs came off the ground and she looked like she was choking. Mikka had no place other than the car to escape so as she was pulling the collar Mikka was trying to get in the car. Then she used her other hand and one knee to push Mikka’s butt into the car. Mikka’s legs were off the ground nearly the entire time. I know it bothered her because once she was inside the car she started shaking her head back and fourth and making a sort of huffing/coughing sound. Janet thinks this might be the reason Mikka threw up on the way home – not because she was carsick. Remember, Mikka made it to the class *without* throwing up. She only threw up on the way home....after the class and after she was thrown into the car.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

After your expansion on the events...I wouldn't go back if it were me. It takes 30 seconds to screw a dog up and a long time to fix it.

Getting in the car - have you tried just luring her through the car with treats, toys, whatever motivates her? Both doors open, throw the treats up on the floor, seat, and make it a game. Don't go anywhere. Just work on getting her in and out of the car.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Wow, yea I would not be going back!!!

Yes, flat collar refers to a "normal" collar, such as a plain leather or nylon collar. As opposed to a slip collar, prong collar, martingale collar, etc.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> After your expansion on the events...I wouldn't go back if it were me. It takes 30 seconds to screw a dog up and a long time to fix it.
> 
> Getting in the car - have you tried just luring her through the car with treats, toys, whatever motivates her? Both doors open, throw the treats up on the floor, seat, and make it a game. Don't go anywhere. Just work on getting her in and out of the car.


I know. But the class is all paid for. I hate the thought of lossing that money (there is no refund). What if I were to be very vigilant and not let anything bad happen...no modeling, prong collars, etc.? I do agree with what everyone has said – Mikka needs more socialization!! At least she’d get some of that through the class, even if she didn’t learn anything else. The trainers assistant was a very, very nice person. Maybe I could request we work with her. 

When Buddy is not around I can try toys. Mikka LOVES her toys. In fact, she’s trying to get me to play tug right now! :laugh:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

have you been working with Mika
and car rides? i use to put my dog in
the car and sit there. then i would move up and
down the driveway. then we would go a 1/4
of a block. the rides got longer and longer.

are you socializing and training Mika eveyday?

is Mika meeting other dogs?

maybe a ramp will help getting Mika into
the car.

prong collars weren't allowed in my dogs
puppy class or his OB training (private lessons).
my dog had private lessons in the beginning
because i think it's to many distractions
in group classes for a dog that's beginning
OB. after some private lessons we did group classes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The puppy is six months old? 

With all the trouble in the car, I agree that she was very fearful and basically shut down in the class. I would not use a prong collar for this, even if I used prong collars at all. A flat buckle collar or a martingale to keep her from slipping her collar. 

The first day of obedience classes is sometimes rather zooey. Some of the dogs are very frightened. I am surprised that your instructor was so surprised at your dog's reaction.

I am not impressed with her throwing the dog in the car either. But sometimes it is better to be no-nonsense about things than to coddle and coax. Would I do that to someone else's dog? No. Would I do it to my own? I guess maybe, if I needed to.

Maybe next week, she will be less upset. I hope so. 

I would practice just getting her in and out of the car at home, not going anywhere. 

I also crate mine in the vehicle.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I was going to post earlier suggesting you take Mikka to places she loves, and then I read your post that she doesn't really like to go anywhere! 

When I adopted Emma she was very fearful of the car. I had to be somewhat forceful to get her into the car, and she tried to climb up onto the ledge in the rear window and plastered herself down for the ride home. Working at a stable, I take my dogs to work with me and they get lots of off leash play time so it didn't take very long at all for Emma to LOVE car rides because she was so excited about where we were going. In fact the other day she jumped into a strangers car! We are staying at my boyfriends sisters place, and they don't have a fence. The boyfriend was letting the dogs out, and Emma got so excited when she saw the passenger door open on the neighbors car that she raced over and leapt in ignoring him calling for her. He had to run back inside and grab the "squeak in case of emergency" toy that he was supposed to already have with him to get her out of the car


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> have you been working with Mika
> and car rides? i use to put my dog in
> the car and sit there. then i would move up and
> down the driveway. then we would go a 1/4
> ...


Yes, I do work with Mikka on car rides. We take very short little trips – when I can get her into the car!! However, I need to do this daily, I think! 

I would have to say no, I’m not socializing her daily. However, nearly everyday we do run into at least one other dog-walker when we are out on our walks. She does very well. She’s never so much as barked at another person/dog….at least when we are on our walks. She does bark – ferociously – when someone comes to the door.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

selzer said:


> The puppy is six months old?
> 
> With all the trouble in the car, I agree that she was very fearful and basically shut down in the class. I would not use a prong collar for this, even if I used prong collars at all. A flat buckle collar or a martingale to keep her from slipping her collar.


What is a martingale collar?


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Miikkas mom said:


> What is a martingale collar?











It tightens up when the leash is pulled to prevent the dog from being able to back up and slip out of the collar. They are primarily used in breeds where the head is the same width or possibly narrower than the neck such as the sighthounds. But they are useful in any breed if the dog tries to slip its collar while on lead.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Lin said:


> It tightens up when the leash is pulled to prevent the dog from being able to back up and slip out of the collar. They are primarily used in breeds where the head is the same width or possibly narrower than the neck such as the sighthounds. But they are useful in any breed if the dog tries to slip its collar while on lead.


OK, thanks for the info!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And some of them are nylon or leather all around, and have chain that tightens and loosens. That is what I use. It is like a prong without the prongs, and it is not for correction, just for safety. I started using them when a car backfired and Babs slipped her collar in a very busy parking lot. 

There was my naked dog, no tags, no leash nothing, and I was there with a leash and collar in my hands. 

The martingale slips over the head fine, but as soon as any tension is applied, there is not enough room for the head to slip back out. 

And in the event of an equipment failure, my dog still has their collar and tags on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Miikkas mom said:


> I know. But the class is all paid for. I hate the thought of lossing that money (there is no refund). What if I were to be very vigilant and not let anything bad happen...no modeling, prong collars, etc.? I do agree with what everyone has said – Mikka needs more socialization!! At least she’d get some of that through the class, even if she didn’t learn anything else. The trainers assistant was a very, very nice person. Maybe I could request we work with her.
> 
> When Buddy is not around I can try toys. Mikka LOVES her toys. In fact, she’s trying to get me to play tug right now! :laugh:


Maybe try talking to the trainer about your concerns? That you really want to work with positive methods before going to a prong and to please explain why forcing her into the car would work. I think if you are really diplomatic about it that she would probably be more than happy to work with you.

What other kind of training have you done with her? Clicker? I"m sorry if you already said. Show her how good Mikka can be.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

What an awful week!! I’ve been sick – really sick! I have not been that sick in a long, long time! Probably had some sort of flu. Maybe H1N1 but I don’t know because I didn’t go to the doc’s office. There was no way I could have gone – cripes, I could hardly get out of bed! 

Needless to say, we did not get to this weeks training class. Furthermore, Mikka has not had much opportunity to try our little car rides, as I was not able to do much of anything with her. Over the weekend we are going to get back at it, though! 

Thanks everyone for all of the good advice!


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