# Seeing Eye dogs??



## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

Our friend has a brother who is blind, he wants to look into getting a seeing eye dog. Our friend really likes Baya and wants to know if GSD's are good seeing eye dogs. Her brother will be going off to college and she is worried about him being all alone, especially with how mean people can be. She is worried ppl might pick on him or torment his dog and he wont know and she thinks having a GSD will discourage this behavior. But her mom doesn't think they use GSD's as seeing eye dogs anymore, so I was wondering what you guys thought? Do GSD's make good seeing eye dogs?


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I raise them.
Go to http://www.fidelco.org
You'll get the info you need.
My fosters make the best guide dog and companions.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote: Do GSD's make good seeing eye dogs?


They make fantastic guide dogs! Not to criticize you but they're actually called "guide dogs." The Seeing Eye is just one of many schools that provide guide dogs.

I think they lost popularity to labs and goldens because of all the negative publicity guard breeds have gotten lately. I actually prefer GSDs OVER labs and goldens because even though the dog has to have a stellar temperament for work, they give the impression of a well-protected handler, lessening their being a target for nasty people. I also feel, though it's debatable, that GSDs are smarter, and equipped for a wider range of tasks than labs or goldens. Plus, as heavily bred as labs are, (I know GSDs are too, but not as much) I'd be worried about the health and longevity of a dog who 2 years of work and training has been invested in. Finally, I think a GSD is more level-headed, more serious, and thinks things out more, making them better, especially as a guide dog. One bad choice can mean the difference of life or death for their handler.

I'd like to see them used more often. They still have the recognizable service dog reputation.

-Jackie


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Just a little tidbit of info







:

Seeing Eye dogs come from Morristown, NJ. The Seeing Eye Inc., organization that trains Guide Dogs has used the registered trademark <u>Seeing Eye Dogs </u>since they opened as the first guide dog facility in the U.S. in 1929.
Seeing Eye Organization Link 


Other facilities around the country also raise and train *Guide Dogs*. Some no longer use German Shepherds.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what?



> Originally Posted By: Ghostwolf
> 
> 
> > Quote: Do GSD's make good seeing eye dogs?
> ...


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

O cool, thank you all for the info







I wasn't sure what they were called. I didn't know that. BjDimock that link was very helpful thank you! I will have to give her those links.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

You're welcome!


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote:what?


That doesn't exactly give me enough information to determine what you're not understanding about what I said, or I would be able to answer you.









-Jackie


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

They definitely use GSD's still, and the first Seeing Eye dog ever was a GSD. But the Labs/Goldens and mixes are also great.

Frankly, when you join the program they evaluate you and the dogs available, based on that they make the match. So there would be no guarantee (at least with the Seeing Eye) that your friends brother would get a GSD. Though all of the dogs are larger and so can to be more of a deterent than say a toy poodle. Though the fact is these dogs are NOT trained to be protection dogs in any way shape or form.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: I also feel, though it's debatable, that GSDs are smarter, and equipped for a wider range of tasks than labs or goldens. Plus, as heavily bred as labs are, (I know GSDs are too, but not as much) I'd be worried about the health and longevity of a dog who 2 years of work and training has been invested in. Finally, I think a GSD is more level-headed, more serious, and thinks things out more, making them better, especially as a guide dog. One bad choice can mean the difference of life or death for their handler.


Just wanted to clarify







I have trained,handled and bred GSDs and labs for twenty years. Labs are very very intelligent,trainable,stable nerves etc. The Field trial bred dogs are quite healthy and a 15yr old lab is not unusual. You will not see a GSD working much past 8. They are not known for living even close to a lab,golden or many other breeds. A fact. A person will get far more years of service out of other breeds. That is a fact. The only thing that a good GSD can do that a lab cannot is the protection work. 
What do you mean by the term "heavily bred"


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

Although Fidelco generally like to see their dogs voluntarily retired at age 12, many, in fact most of their dogs that are working guides work until the age of 14, comfortably.
If bred correctly, sheps can also work until a ripe old age.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

It depends what organization you get a dog through. Some organizations use a particular breed such as German Shepherds, Labs or Goldens (or Lab/Golden crosses) exclusively while others use several breeds or many different breeds for guide dogs. For example my brother-in-law got his guide dog through Leader Dogs, and they train Labs, Goldens, German Shepherds, and Standard Poodles. When you apply for a guide dog you can tell them if you have a preference for a specific breed but there is no guarantee you will get the breed you want. My brother-in-law did not give a preference for what breed he got. His guide dog is a Labrador.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:Although Fidelco generally like to see their dogs voluntarily retired at age 12, many, in fact most of their dogs that are working guides work until the age of 14, comfortably.
> If bred correctly, sheps can also work until a ripe old age.


I would like to see the stats on that. It is so unusual to see a 13yrs old GSD that the German Shepherd Club of America makes a big deal out of being in the "13" club
And no, one does NOT see GSDs working in the military or in police work at that age. We generally retire at 8 or so. That is a fact. As far as what we use the dogs for.


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## khawk (Dec 26, 2008)

Guide dogs for the Blind at San Rafael, here in northern California uses mostly labs, these days, although they began with German Shepherds. They have a long waiting list for the few German Shepherds they still have because there are people who prefer them to the labs and goldens. The decision to phase out German Shepherds there has a number of threads, not least of them political, as labs and goldens are seen as less threatening than gsds. 

The most problematical issues, however, seem to be the difficulty in getting sufficient out-lines with adequate structural integrity (due to the fads in show breeding) and integrity of temperment. San Rafael says they want a 'softer' dog that is still steady and reliable and can still pass the public access test, and that, I have come to believe, is a valid issue. I spent three years myself trying to find a dog of an out-line with correct structure and size and 'real world' working temperament. I didn't entirely succeed. Ysabel isn't a true out-line, but rather a 'kissing kin' sort of line breeding. The pups she produced have, so far, been happily successful; I am still left, however, with trying to find an out-line for my next generation. San Rafael faced the same problem, and just gave up. To be fair, it is a much larger problem for them and they need a lot more than one out-line every decade to keep their lines strong. They have to breed a lot more than one litter of puppies every five years to keep their lines going. 

Working longevity is something that runs in families in dogs just as it does in humans. My mother's first brace/balance dog worked up to age 12, and my first wheelchair aide dog, Mac, worked through age 11, although wheelchair work is physically very taxing, much more so, actually, than guide work. Many times these working dogs live very healthy, happy lives, fulfilled and prideful in their work and enjoying the best of care, which adds, I think, to their longevity. 

Good luck to your friend's brother. I hope he finds just the dog he needs. khawk


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

We've discussed this in my service dog club, the fact that many assistance dogs are kept working longer than they should be. At 10-14 years old, many large dogs -- especially those that have worked all of their lives -- are experiencing arthritis, HD, and other orthopedic issues. That doesn't include other health issues that affect geriatric dogs, and at 12-14 years old, large dogs are geriatric, not merely "seniors." While some may be perfectly healthy, many others experience beginning or moderate cardio-, renal or other systemic failure.

CAN these dogs work? Yes, perhaps some can. SHOULD they be working? In most cases, no. They may not be as sharp as they used to be, and to put it bluntly, it's just not fair to the dog. At 12 years old, a 70 lb dog is in the equivalent of a human in his late 70's or early 80's.

Sure, there are humans who are sharp and fit enough to be working at that age, and there may be dogs that are too. But most of us are planning to be retired at that age, taking it easy, or at least, easier. 

When disabled handlers work their dogs past a reasonable retirement age, it's usually not in the handler's best interest, and it's certainly not in the dog's best interest. 

As PWD who have service dogs, we have to be very sensitive to the fact that our dogs have given their lives to taking care of us, but we have an obligation to them in return. Transitioning to a new dog is very difficult, especially for those to self train and have to start all over with a new dog. 

But "difficulty" isn't a reason for working a dog past an age when he should be retired. We owe him that much. 

Another thing that I have personally experienced is that labs, goldens and poodles make excellent assistance dogs AND are quite easily accepted by the public. As someone who uses GSDs as her service dog, I experience that there are far more members of the public that are afraid of GSDs. 

I self-train my dogs and choose German Shepherds for specific reasons, but I understand this drawback. It IS easier to go into a business or a crowded room with a field lab than a standard size male GSD. In fact, nowadays, people expect assistance dogs to be labs and goldens. In fact, that's one of the most common questions I get. People ask me "I thought only labs/goldens are used as service dogs now." 

Access is still more of an issue than we'd like, so when the breed of the dog helps to open doors, it has to be considered...


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> > Quote:Although Fidelco generally like to see their dogs voluntarily retired at age 12, many, in fact most of their dogs that are working guides work until the age of 14, comfortably.
> ...


I'm sure that Fidelco would be more than happy to share their info with you.
You have to keep in mind that Fidelco breeds all of their own dogs. If one shows the slightest change in hips or stifle, it is out of their work program. Hence my Ilan, who never went into training. Is she lame or sore? Nope. (She's coming 4) Could she live a long useful life with minimal arthitic changes? Yup. Fidelco wouldn't chance it.
I will say that when you breed for mind and soundness, you can loose the "show ring" look. My Sika is downright funny looking with her flop ear and gay tail, but she is a great guide, and sound in body.
Fidelco sheps are also on the smaller side, females being in the 60 pound range, and males in the lower to mid 70's. On top of this size being easier to fit under bus seats and get on planes, it also helps the soundness of the dog as it gets older.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: will say that when you breed for mind and soundness, you can loose the "show ring" look. My Sika is downright funny looking with her flop ear and gay tail, but she is a great guide, and sound in body.
> Fidelco sheps are also on the smaller side, females being in the 60 pound range, and males in the lower to mid 70's. On top of this size being easier to fit under bus seats and get on planes, it also helps the soundness of the dog as it gets older.


I doubt they are using German lines,so understand that the "showline" look does not encompass the German lines. We breed for working temperament and drive. Fidelco by their admission are breeding soft dogs. So, just a whole different mindset


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: CAN these dogs work? Yes, perhaps some can. SHOULD they be working? In most cases, no. They may not be as sharp as they used to be, and to put it bluntly, it's just not fair to the dog. At 12 years old, a 70 lb dog is in the equivalent of a human in his late 70's or early 80's.


I agree with you. I don't care what the bloodline,time marches on and with it comes hearing difficulty.cataracts,arthritis etc. I just recently retired my Dutch Shepherd bomb dog. Turned 10 August first. Still works like a demon, however, her eyesight has dimished and she runs into things sometimes searching. The hearing is going too. After working hard,she is sore the next day so she has earned the right to lay on the memory foam mattress.  My 13 yr old dual purpose Dutch shepherd could still work when I retired him,however, same problems,eyesight,hearing, a bit stiff. All the good breeding practices in the world cannot put off time


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> > Quote: will say that when you breed for mind and soundness, you can loose the "show ring" look. My Sika is downright funny looking with her flop ear and gay tail, but she is a great guide, and sound in body.
> ...


Fidelco lines are from Kirschental.
Although yes, they are now picking softer dogs, a few of my own haven't been.
I actually prefer the stronger mindset. When working my fosters, it is in them that I have the most confidence, not the softer ones.
Again, Fidelco would prefer retirement by age 12, and is always ready with a sucessor dog. It becomes a sticky situation to get the handler to agree sometimes.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: khawk Guide dogs for the Blind at San Rafael, here in northern California uses mostly labs, these days, although they began with German Shepherds. They have a long waiting list for the few German Shepherds they still have because there are people who prefer them to the labs and goldens. The decision to phase out German Shepherds there has a number of threads, not least of them political, as labs and goldens are seen as less threatening than gsds.


I met a couple last Friday with their lab who is a retired breeder for Guide Dogs for the Blind. I was doing a training walk with Halo at a strip mall, and stopped to talk. He mentioned that they rarely use GSDs anymore and I asked if it was because they had trouble finding the right temperament and he said it was mostly due to health. Sad.


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