# Working line mixed with show line??



## nataliaalvarez2

Hello I´ve posted about my two black and tan, whose first litter was born, and, to my surprise, they were 2 sables, 3 solid black, and 3 black&tan. Of course everybody said, like I thought, some other dog was involved, even if I´m sure that didn´t happened. 

I´m not a breeder, just a GSD owner, and they are not supposed to breed, because of cosanguinity, and I was told when I bought them, because the father of the dam is the granpa of the sire. It didn´t matter to me, since I´m not selling pups.

Well, as it was a mistery to me, I kept searching for information about how could that be possible. I started wandering whether some line work GSD was introduced in the bloodline of one of them and they don´t resemble it, but passed on to their pups, I think specially the dam, wich has a very "squared shape" and light tan hair beneath her black saddle. I would like to have your opinion about these articles bellow, that could explain how genetics is not a 2+2:4 science, and if anyone had a similar experience.

You can check my album to see the pictures of the dam, the sire and the litter.

VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color

Solving the Mystery of Crop Out Black and Tan Puppies | Color Genetics

Thanks in advance,
Natalia


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## ApselBear

2+2 = 3


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## carmspack

oh no . 

you have two black and tan show line dogs . They should produce black and tan pups . 

no chance that this may solve the mystery quote OP "
". A crop out black and tan is a dog that is born with the black and tan coloring in a breed that does not normally have black and tan coloring. "

--- because black and tan is very normal to the breed .

Black and tan would not be the mystery as this is what you would expect .

The odd colours are the "sable" and the "solid black" .

Neither parent is sable . Sable is a dominant gene , not recessive , meaning one of , or both , of the parents need to be sable. Your dogs don't fit into this.
To be solid black from this combination- because there is some investigation into a "dominant" black gene -- well I would place a higher expectation on winning the lottery .
Count that out .

To this , a big NO.
"I started wandering whether some line work GSD was introduced in the bloodline of one of them and they don´t resemble it, but passed on to their pups, I think specially the dam, wich has a very "squared shape" and light tan hair beneath her black saddle."

Even if she had a working line ancestor , and even if he/she were sable , it does not matter . YOUR female is black and tan . Remember sable is a dominant gene , so any recessive or far-back speculation has no meaning.

Your female is black and tan and could stand stronger pigmentation . 

That she is squared off does not mean she has working bloodlines . It means that this is her conformation . Period . 
Nature requires effort to play in the extremes . Left to their own devices nature reverts to some middle. 
Her background hasn't been driven by attempts to fit some show line requirement , just-a-dog . That isn't a bad thing.

About the consanguinity --- you had an accidental breeding . This is not scary tight inbreeding , rather more common linebreeding . So that would not be a deterent to getting the dogs out and placed in HOMES 

quote " because of cosanguinity, and I was told when I bought them, because the father of the dam is the granpa of the sire. It didn´t matter to me, since I´m not selling pups."
(2 - 3 breeding?)

If I understand your comment about not selling the pups -- you CAN'T keep 8 pups on top of the two you have.

Get the DNA done to ascertain the sire .


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## Castlemaid

There is the possibility that one or both your dogs are patterned sables - the pics you have posted previously did not show their coloring off well. If you have two patterned sables, you could have sables and solid blacks in the litter. But if that is the case, then the pedigree you have for the parents is false, as the pedigree is pure Black and tan, and you could ONLY have black and tan pups from those genetics.


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## wolfstraum

Get the DNA test done for color on both yours and the recessive black gene. If the result has one showing up as a sable and both with recessive black, then - and ONLY THEN - is it possible that your dogs are the parents of every single pup.

This is NOT rocket science. Basic color genetics in the GSD is pretty cut and dried. No surprises, no new discoveries. Sable is dominant, black must be expressed or carried by both parents to produce blacks.

Lee


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## carmspack

Post a good picture of the mother and father again .
Standing . 
One per shot , and one with the two together.

you can get the DNA done for each dogs colour -- and you should get DNA done for paternity.

mother- baby ! father ? - maybe ! 

an old rhyme


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## nataliaalvarez2

carmspack said:


> oh no .
> 
> you have two black and tan show line dogs . They should produce black and tan pups .
> 
> no chance that this may solve the mystery quote OP "
> ". A crop out black and tan is a dog that is born with the black and tan coloring in a breed that does not normally have black and tan coloring. "
> 
> --- because black and tan is very normal to the breed .
> 
> Black and tan would not be the mystery as this is what you would expect .
> 
> The odd colours are the "sable" and the "solid black" .
> 
> Neither parent is sable . Sable is a dominant gene , not recessive , meaning one of , or both , of the parents need to be sable. Your dogs don't fit into this.
> To be solid black from this combination- because there is some investigation into a "dominant" black gene -- well I would place a higher expectation on winning the lottery .
> Count that out .
> 
> To this , a big NO.
> "I started wandering whether some line work GSD was introduced in the bloodline of one of them and they don´t resemble it, but passed on to their pups, I think specially the dam, wich has a very "squared shape" and light tan hair beneath her black saddle."
> 
> Even if she had a working line ancestor , and even if he/she were sable , it does not matter . YOUR female is black and tan . Remember sable is a dominant gene , so any recessive or far-back speculation has no meaning.
> 
> Your female is black and tan and could stand stronger pigmentation .
> 
> That she is squared off does not mean she has working bloodlines . It means that this is her conformation . Period .
> Nature requires effort to play in the extremes . Left to their own devices nature reverts to some middle.
> Her background hasn't been driven by attempts to fit some show line requirement , just-a-dog . That isn't a bad thing.
> 
> About the consanguinity --- you had an accidental breeding . This is not scary tight inbreeding , rather more common linebreeding . So that would not be a deterent to getting the dogs out and placed in HOMES
> 
> quote " because of cosanguinity, and I was told when I bought them, because the father of the dam is the granpa of the sire. It didn´t matter to me, since I´m not selling pups."
> (2 - 3 breeding?)
> 
> If I understand your comment about not selling the pups -- you CAN'T keep 8 pups on top of the two you have.
> 
> Get the DNA done to ascertain the sire .


Hi Carmen, 
No way I´m keeping all these pups, I already gave them away, just kept one for myself. How can I tell whether my bitch is or not a patterned sable? I can´t DNA the pups, I never heardof that service around here, in Argentina.

I´ll know next time they have pups, I´ll make sure to lock her up to avoid any other dog, even if, like I told you before, my backyard is already quite safe like it is now.

I´m uploading a picture of the strange color beneath her saddle for you to tell me if it´s normal for a dog like her, since my male dog doesn´t have that.

Sorry about my english!!!


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## carmspack

post a pedigree for the dogs .

post a picture of full body , show the side 

that looks like undercoat


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## nataliaalvarez2

Annie Von der Cort


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## nataliaalvarez2

Here´re some pics, it´ll try to find more.


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## Castlemaid

From the close-up picture of the undercoat and the new pictures you posted, the dogs are NOT sable, but black and tan. The little bit of discolouring your female has is part of the bitch stripe, which is very common in German show-lines. 
The undercoat of a sable would not show any black at all. 

I have to agree with Carmen, some other dog has gotten to your female when she was in heat. Some male dogs will do the impossible to get to a female in heat, I've heard and read of some unbelivable stories of males chewing through walls, chain-link fences, climbing over walls, etc, to mate with a female.


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