# When does hoarding start?



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

At what point does adopting/rescuing/purchasing become an issue?
It has recently came to my attention that someone in an apparent tight financial situation took in a gsd which had been abandon. Within the month that they have had the dog, some issues surfaced which caused some financial outlay. Although the issues have not been corrected, the poster has found (and vows to keep) a second dog. 
While this is not yet hoarding, the potential seems to be there. 

When do we back up and recognize that although we could "make it work" (or not - the or not just doesn't really get recognized for the most part) adding another is not doing justice to the one/s we have?

I know that my two are it for now. Even though I was offered a dog I had coveted, I knew it would not be fair to what I have now. If that dog had been headed to the pound or owner surrender to the pound, I would have taken it, worked with it and got it to a good home. 

Some people accomodate many more dogs than two. When/how do you know you're at capacity? When does it become hoarding? (When someone else does it??  )


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

A previously good friend of mine (no longer, knowing what I now know) is a textbook hoarder. But she's a turnover hoarder; she acquires a new pet, buys all the supplies for it and does a great job taking care of it for a month or two, and then lapses into complete neglect. Once she starts feeling guilty for her neglect she sells it or gives it away. All sorts of animals, reptiles, fish, cats, dogs, horses, exotics... it's disgusting. The worst is when her neglect causes problems in the animal, then she frantically tries to unload the poor sick animal on someone else so she doesn't have to pay vet bills. After pasture-boarding her horses in a cheap flooded field her mare got severe hoof rot and developed a blood infection. She tried to sell it for $2k on CL but (of course) no one would buy it. Then she was posting that "the mare will die if no one takes her"... I don't know what happened to the horse, but there are no more ads for her.
She's turned over at least 7 purebred dogs, three horses, and almost a dozen exotics in the year and a half I cut ties with her.

Hoarders like that are the worst by far. They make my blood boil and I really want to see them get punished for the horrible things they inflict on the animals unlucky enough to cross their paths. </rant>

As for me, my limit is three house dogs and one training live-in. I just don't have time to do an hour a day with each individually if I take any more, plus I try to keep my monthly flea/tick/heartworm/food/equipment/show expenses under $200 to stay on-budget. I won't lie, I really grappled with whether or not having three dogs made me a hoarder... I'm serious! I asked all my friends if I should be legitimately worried! :laugh:
But in the show world it's not uncommon to see kennels with upwards of 12 happy, healthy dogs. As long as you have the time and resources to properly care for all of them, I have no problem with it. Some even have a staff to help out. But for a single person with limited resources (especially a layperson) I'd cap out with 2.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I think the line for hoarding is whenever you have more animals than you can care for. I know that I could have one more dog and still be able to make ends meet, but I don't like to cut my finances that close to the wire, so for now it is only one. If I had more than two, I most likely couldn't take care of them, and to me that would make me a hoarder.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

At one time we had 5 dogs. I think that was the absolute limit for us. We had the two of us and two growing kids to help. We did obedience and agility and the dogs were all kept active and engaged. As we have gotten older I find I have less energy, and now that the kids are grown and off living their own lives... two seems to be plenty, especially as I am now the one cleaning up the dog poop out of the yard daily.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

When the owner has less time and money than the animal's care requires and the animal's quality of life suffers, that is when it becomes a bad situation. 

You can have that happen with only one dog. It doesn't necessarily have to be a hoarding situation.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How are these types of public accusations helpful? What outcome do you wish for? Isn't it better to offer support and helpful and gentle advice rather than harsh assumptions?

There are well respected people on this board who have 5 to 10 dogs and/or many animals, some of whom are very close in age and were acquired (adopted or purchased) in close succession. Are they hoarders? Is someone a hoarder who buys two dogs at the same time and doesn't have a savings account? We do not know these people's financial situations and even if they are financially stable now things could change quickly and make their situation very difficult. However, we do not accuse or suspect them of being hoarders. We do sometimes warn them about the difficulties of raising two dogs close in age or adopting two dogs with unknown backgrounds too close together. 


It is one thing to help someone to get a dog through this board (something I have tried to stop numerous times when I suspected a problem) and quite another to accuse someone of hoarding because they acquire dogs in close succession and don't have a lot of money. These types of accusations will certainly not have a positive outcome. Ultimately, the best we can do is offer meaningful and supportive advice and hope that people will listen. Assuming that because someone is poor that they cannot take care of their dogs is really not helpful, respectful or necessarily true. 
 

As I said on the other board, some of us have adopted or purchased dogs when we had little or no savings and have given things up so that we could take proper care of our dogs. 

The people across the street from me don't have much money but they have taken in 3 animals (all rescues and some from family members who died or who could not take care of their animals) in the past 2 years. They are not very savvy about training or food or anything else but they take the best care of their animals that they can and they truly love them. I very carefully offer them advice and they always listen. They now walk their dogs for an hour every day b/c I recommended doing this to alleviate problem behaviors. They also hit their dogs less b/c of some advice I gave them. Notice I said less? That's the best I can do and they live across the street from me. 

In one case I treated a wound on their dog b/c they couldn't afford to take her to the vet. They are not model animal caregivers and would never pass muster on this board but they do their best and I do my best to help their animals. 

Ultimately we would do well to consider how we would like to be treated were we on the other end...


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

BowWow, in case that was towards me, I totally wasn't referencing the person in the OP's post... I was just sharing a hoarding horror story. Sorry if it came off like I was accusing them of being that way.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The question was "When/how do you know you're at capacity? When does it become hoarding? "

I saw this as a post initiating a discussion of hoarding in general, not as any kind of public accusation of one specific person.

My response was based on the Animal Cop shows I see on Animal Planet. Sometimes it is only one dog who suffers horribly and unnecessarily because some human thought it was enough to bring it home, slap a collar on it, and tie it to a tree. Never mind food, shelter or vet care. 

It is my belief that if there is not enough time or money to take care of an animal so that it is properly cared for and has a reasonably good life, then these people should not have a pet... or two, or fifty. We have so much power as humans, and it is a shame to see that power used to cause suffering to an innocent and helpless animal who has no say in the matter.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> *I think the line for hoarding is whenever you have more animals than you can care for.* I know that I could have one more dog and still be able to make ends meet, but I don't like to cut my finances that close to the wire, so for now it is only one. If I had more than two, I most likely couldn't take care of them, and to me that would make me a hoarder.


I agree with this. To each his own on how many they can deal with, but when the animals are being neglected due to owner time or financial restraints, then there is a problem. 

I saw this in the Parrot breeding industry in the 80/90's. People aquired more birds(some were endangered species) than they could care for and legislation in the 80's was geared towards ending that. Because HSUS was involved everyone was against it, but there were legit reasons for the legislation(which never was passed)...though it did successfully restrict the importation into the US.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

marbury said:


> BowWow, in case that was towards me, I totally wasn't referencing the person in the OP's post... I was just sharing a hoarding horror story. Sorry if it came off like I was accusing them of being that way.


No, sorry, it was addressed to the OP and I was reacting to the larger topic (and a post on another board). 

Sorry for getting off topic.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have 3 dogs at the moment and I have had as many as 6 at one time. They all eat high quality food, go to obedience school, get all required shots and vet care, and lots of love and attention. They start out with crate training and eventually have free run of the house..I have every nyla bone and high quality toy you can think of(all over my house). I am a single person with a child living at home in college and I also have a single income. I also have a credit card for the pets for emergencies. I have taken in many dogs and held on to them until a good home is found and I cover all expenses..even the spay/neuter. Can I afford it? Nope, but I go without and they never will If I found a homeless dog everyday this week I would take it in, if I couldn't find a home for it, it would stay. There could be 10 and they would all be loved the same and given the same kind of care and I do it pretty much by myself. My reward is at the end of the day when they lay around me and give me back all the love that I give them. I don't consider myself a hoarder, I'm not missing anything in my life, I just love animals I'm not even sure if not having enough money has anything to do with hoarding Some people truly love animals and will go without to make sure their pets have all that is needed. To say one is a hoarder or a bad pet owner because they don't have lots of money is really not a fair judgement.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I'm not even sure if not having enough money has anything to do with hoarding Some people truly love animals and will go without to make sure their pets have all that is needed. To say one is a hoarder or a bad pet owner because they don't have lots of money is really not a fair judgement.


I think we're talking about the animals going without, not the other way around.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I sometimes take in rescues. I do the best I can for them and have spent many thousands of dollars on dogs that are not "mine."
But when finances are really tight, I cannot spend money I don't have (i.e., borrow or "run a tab") for a rescue dog. I just can't, and won't, do that.

I currently have a rescue, my second since February, who needs more than I personally can give her. She was passed off to my by a "real" rescue. That rescue had a vet on staff, yet still decided not to treat her.
I will ask for help with her, and hope that things work out. If they don't, who gets blamed? Me, for not providing hundreds/thousands for her care? The rescue, who handed her over to me after they deemed her unadoptable? Or the owner who handed her off to the rescue?*


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I think we're talking about the animals going without, not the other way around.


Exactly and just because someone doesn't have the finances doesn't mean the animal is going without. Correct me if I'm wrong but per the OP because a person has financial issues deems them as a potential hoarder? So a rich person that can afford their pet, but neglects them is not an animal hoarder just a bad owner? Animal Hoarder does not equal poor person....it can and does come in all shapes and forms, the OP can't say that because someone isn't financially stable they are a possible animal hoarder.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

middleofnowhere said:


> Some people accomodate many more dogs than two. When/how do you know you're at capacity? When does it become hoarding? (When someone else does it??  )


I think it becomes hoarding when a person can't stop acquiring dogs. When it becomes a compulsion and regardless of how the animals live or how much of a negative impact the dogs have on the owners lives, they keep getting more. 
Getting two dogs in close succession doesn't make someone a hoarder just because they may not have the financial means to take care of the dogs as well as someone else.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think it becomes hoarding when a person can't stop acquiring dogs. When it becomes a compulsion and regardless of how the animals live or how much of a negative impact the dogs have on the owners lives, they keep getting more.
> Getting two dogs in close succession doesn't make someone a hoarder just because they may not have the financial means to take care of the dogs as well as someone else.


 
This!

My mom has a saying: "People give their kids and pets what they can."


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Please* be VERY CAREFUL *when you are dealing with anyone who has the potential to be or is a hoarder. 
My mom is borderline. To make a long story short I was able to contact her local human society and get the outside cats spayed/neutered. She only has 1 dog & 1 cat in her house now but if I didn't get those cats outside taken care of you can just imagine what would have happened. Anyway I just got back from visiting her and there is about 7 cats left outside NO BABIES horray! People that hoard have OCD disorders and they don't even realize it. The more I tried to address the situation with my mom the more defensive she got about everything. I was at her house last september and just sitting there looking at her little dog I watched fleas all over her. She had spot on stuff and I put it on the dog & her cat. This trip fortunately I didn't see fleas like last time.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

_I think it becomes hoarding when a person can't stop acquiring dogs._

I agree with this statement. I think hoarding is a pretty specific problem. If somebody has 2 dogs that they cannot care for then I don't consider that hoarding. It may be neglect, but not hoarding.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Hoarding occurs when you take in more animals than you can reasonably care for, or when your family, work, finances, physical, or mental health suffers because of the animal situation. Some people feel a sense of hyper-responsibility toward animals and feel that no one else can take care of them properly. I know many people who are borderline hoarders, and it's frustrating, because they want ME to become the same way. 

In my line of work (pet grooming) and as an animal lover, people seem to *expect* me to hoard, and are always trying to get me to take animals in. But because of my physical, financial, and mental health, I have to keep my animal load under a certain level. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed as it is! So I have to be very careful about taking on another animal. The animal will never go without, but what happens is that *I* become overtaxed and overstressed, and that isn't good for me. 

If I didn't work with animals day in and day out, things might be different. But when I have 40 dogs a week coming through my grooming shop, burnout is a constant danger. In this business, burnout rate is VERY high, and I have been grooming for 20 years. If my own animals start to get pushed aside because I am too tired/burned out to deal with them, that isn't good for anyone.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

kiya said:


> Please* be VERY CAREFUL *when you are dealing with anyone who has the potential to be or is a hoarder.
> My mom is borderline. To make a long story short I was able to contact her local human society and get the outside cats spayed/neutered. She only has 1 dog & 1 cat in her house now but *if I didn't get those cats outside taken care of* you can just imagine what would have happened. Anyway I just got back from visiting her and there is about 7 cats left outside NO BABIES horray! People that hoard have OCD disorders and they don't even realize it. The more I tried to address the situation with my mom the more defensive she got about everything. I was at her house last september and just sitting there looking at her little dog I watched fleas all over her. She had spot on stuff and I put it on the dog & her cat. This trip fortunately I didn't see fleas like last time.


It is common for people to abandon cats that are not spayed/neutered. Feeding the cats and allowing them to breed is not a viable option, but letting these abandoned animals starve can never be the solution either. Many people find themselves without the resources to fully clean up the next guy's mess, but cannot turn their backs to a hungry or thirsty little mouth. It is great that you local humane society was able to step in and help this situation out. Seems like your mother and the humane society were both parts of the solution to somebody else's irresponsibility. Kudos to both. Be proud of your mother, she stepped up to the plate, and so did you by getting the humane society involved. This problem solved until somebody abandons another unspayed pet.

I have seen this happen frequently in more countrified areas near me with dogs too. People just abandon pregnant dogs or dogs with pups off in these areas. Local farmers do their best to humanely manage these abandoned dogs only to be called hoarders. They did not go out and get these dogs, they don't want these dogs, but they feel sorry for starving moms and little ones and throw some leftovers their way if they have some. I think in these situations it is awful to label these people hoarders.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

You could probably have considered my grandmother a hoarder, but 30 yrs ago it was not broadcast everywhere. At one time she had 30 cats in the house, countless cats with kittens outside, probably up to 10 dogs that except for the 2 Shepherds they were all strays she & my aunt "found". She never had sufficient means to care for them to our standards. They were not kept in "filthy" conditions and she scrapped every penny she had to feed and care for them. She also used to feed the raccoons outside. She didn't own a crate, all animals were kept in different rooms of the house.
I could never condone anyone that kept animals in deplorable conditions, starving for food or medical care. My grandmother loved every single animal she had, she would have gone hungry before any critter. That didn't make the situation right but that was the only thing she cared about.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

kiya said:


> You could probably have considered my grandmother a hoarder, but 30 yrs ago it was not broadcast everywhere. At one time she had 30 cats in the house, countless cats with kittens outside, probably up to 10 dogs that except for the 2 Shepherds they were all strays she & my aunt "found". She never had sufficient means to care for them to our standards. They were not kept in "filthy" conditions and she scrapped every penny she had to feed and care for them. She also used to feed the raccoons outside. She didn't own a crate, all animals were kept in different rooms of the house.
> I could never condone anyone that kept animals in deplorable conditions, starving for food or medical care. My grandmother loved every single animal she had, she would have gone hungry before any critter. That didn't make the situation right but that was the only thing she cared about.


Fortunately today they have better resources for low to no cost spaying and neutering, that was not always the case. Sounds like your grandmother provided the best she could for what was available back then and did a pretty good job at it to boot. 

It is not about how many animals one has, but about how they are cared for. There are a lot of people out there that should not have one animal while others successfully own many. How many is an individual decision based on many things.


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## ShepStyle (May 9, 2012)

Like many have said already, I think it depends on what a person can physically and financially care for. 
My limit right now is 10. I might be able to care for more but 10 is tiring enough! lol Ten dogs may be way too many for some people and I know a few people who have more than 20 dogs and they have no problem caring for them. It's different strokes for different folks, I guess.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

How do you honestly give each dog individual daily attention and training when you have 10, or crap, 20? I can't do it properly with only four.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

chelle: You can't to the same extent. Unfortunately, there is no way you can give multiple dogs the same type of attention you can give to just one. I know that when I had one dog, she got a lot more training, attention and progressed quicker. With multiples, it's constantly trying to figure out who needs to get ready in what time frame and for what goal. I've seen this in kennels I've visited. Not every dog will get worked or trained daily. Unless there is a large staff on hand, multiples won't get the same attention as 1. And I say this as an owner of multiples


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

chelle said:


> How do you honestly give each dog individual daily attention and training when you have 10, or crap, 20? I can't do it properly with only four.


I remember the times when we had around 20 dogs + 3 litters down at the same time. We always had five dogs in the house, than outside in the backyard a nice kennel system with three more kennels, one whelping room in the backroom of the garage, nice and sterile and another one downstairs in the basement. 
We've had our own training premises and it was a training group of up to 10 people that met daily.

The kennel area was a line of clean, sturdy kennels from Bromet and right in front of them were the single runs. Each dog had a long run. In front of that run was a huge lawn and in the back was a fruit-garden with apple, cherry trees etc. 

I also remember that my parents went around the world to hold seminars all the while friends and family took care of us kids and dog handlers cared for the dogs. My father went as far as Thailand to hold Seminars. I do believe he was gone for two or three months. I don't remember the exact time but he was gone for a long time. Had his very own interpreter and was driven around in a limousine because only the very rich in Thailand could afford to import GSD's from the "motherland". I also remember that he told us that the dogs had their own dog walkers that even protected them from the sun by holding sun"umbrellas"over them. 

It was a beautiful place where we had lots of BBQ's, training days, took care of the dogs, etc. 

They were walked, biked, worked in Obedience, given into Foster Trainer Homes where they were trained by others and then sold and these trainers either got a pup or were paid. 

The bitches were rented out to other breeders and we got a pup or we took in a bitch from another kennel. 

When you have that many dogs and professionally breed you have an entire support system. There are many people involved and my parents were never dishonest about anything. They were always honest about their breeding program. 

I remember how we had our little bunny shack. We raised bunnies out there and one day they escaped. We had cats out there too and not even two miles away was my Grandfathers farm where we used to keep the horses. Those were the glorious days. The day my Uncle decided to take that farm down to build houses and build the compost company was the day everything changed. 

And now we've got 20+ own horses and over 50 boarding horses to take care of. 
How does one care for that many horses? You have staff, Teenage Girls that show up daily and help mucking the stable, brushing the horses so they can get to ride, you have paying costumers that pay for riding lessons etc. 

Two people muck the stalls in three to four hours. It takes about two hours to feed all the horses. My sister has a strict schedule of training others, working her own horses, working costumers horses. 

She rides more than 10 horses a day. It's a short but very intense session. There are paddocks, the horse walker, pastures... 

Just like we did the dogs, it's a strict, very professional environment and you have to have organizational skills to make it work.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Sorry to go off topic, but Mrs K what a great experience that must have been especially as a kid. Lucky you!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It was an awesome experience. It also taught me responsibility and when to stop taking onto dogs, when to say "Okay, enough is enough, you can't financially support that dog." 

It teaches you not to think with your heart but with your heart and head. Many people think solely with their heart all the while they know "I can't support that dog." but their bleeding heart tells them otherwise and that is how they slowly but thoroughly slide into hoarding or financial ruin which doesn't help anyone. 

Sometimes, less is better and one dog at a time makes more of a difference than dragging them from one disaster into another.


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## ShepStyle (May 9, 2012)

> How do you honestly give each dog individual daily attention and training when you have 10, or crap, 20? I can't do it properly with only four.





> chelle: You can't to the same extent. Unfortunately, there is no way you can give multiple dogs the same type of attention you can give to just one. I know that when I had one dog, she got a lot more training, attention and progressed quicker. With multiples, it's constantly trying to figure out who needs to get ready in what time frame and for what goal. I've seen this in kennels I've visited. Not every dog will get worked or trained daily. Unless there is a large staff on hand, multiples won't get the same attention as 1. And I say this as an owner of multiples


Ditto  
My dogs won't get the same amount of attention etc. that one dog will but they will get the attention etc. that they _need_. It's like having more than one child; not all of your children (generic) will get the same amount of attention as an only child but they will get the attention that they need ( and plus, they will have lots of fun with their brothers and sisters  ).


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs K, thanks for sharing that. What a story.! Something like "it takes a village." I can certainly see where it would and did. Amazing childhood experience.

Middleofnowhere, I'm handing it to you, you knew something was pretty nuts and called it. Maybe not exactly what it was, but called it. I think I owe you an apology.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when you can't afford another dog, you don't have time for
another dog, you don't have the space for another dog. to me
that's when hoarding begins.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> when you can't afford another dog, you don't have time for
> another dog, you don't have the space for another dog. to me
> that's when hoarding begins.


Crap. I'm a hoarder.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

wait a minute. that's what i think a hoarder is. you don't
have to think that way. :laugh:



doggiedad said:


> when you can't afford another dog, you don't have time for
> another dog, you don't have the space for another dog. to me
> that's when hoarding begins.





chelle said:


> Crap. I'm a hoarder.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Not saying just because you are financially strapped you are a hoarder -- If you are financially strapped, having difficulty with one dog which you acquired just a short while ago and cannot resist adding another to the mix -- AND you think that no one else can take good care of dog #2 -- you MIGHT be exhibiting signs of developing into a hoarder. Especially if you are making minimal effort to locate the just found dog's past/present family... 

So if you are feeding the strays but not seeing that they stop reproducing, so you take the dogs in but let them reproduce, they get chained out, not enough water, you keep taking in more, ... at some point, you are not placing animals, you are not turning away animals -- It IS a slippery slope. One of the points I was hoping to discuss is just that - it's a slippery slope.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

middleofnowhere said:


> Not saying just because you are financially strapped you are a hoarder -- If you are financially strapped, having difficulty with one dog which you acquired just a short while ago and cannot resist adding another to the mix -- AND you think that no one else can take good care of dog #2 -- you MIGHT be exhibiting signs of developing into a hoarder. Especially if you are making minimal effort to locate the just found dog's past/present family...
> 
> So if you are feeding the strays but not seeing that they stop reproducing, so you take the dogs in but let them reproduce, they get chained out, not enough water, you keep taking in more, ... at some point, you are not placing animals, you are not turning away animals -- It IS a slippery slope. One of the points I was hoping to discuss is just that - it's a slippery slope.


You need to catch up! You're way behind.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> wait a minute. that's what i think a hoarder is. you don't
> have to think that way. :laugh:


hehe I was just kinda teasing. well kinda anyway.  Sort of in over my head with all these canines, but easy to giggle about now, since they've all had their exercise and dinner and are crashed out.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

It was brought to my attention that this entire thread is talking about myself and my situation. Yes, I did take in an abandoned male GSD about a month ago. It really is not my fault that someone lost there dog or even the possibility that someone dumped her on my dad's property. I took her in because my dad didn't want to have two dogs on his property to worry about. So, my intentions when I first took her in was to find her previous owners and if no one came forward to claim her and I couldn't find anyone to take her in, she would stay with me. But, circumstances have arose where she won't be able to stay with me. Therefore, I am reaching out to the resources that people have offered me and I'm attempting to do the right thing. Once Zayda finds a new home or her previous owners, there will be no other dogs in my home. Zach, my male, is getting neutered next Tuesday and is staying on my dad's farm where he has more room to stretch his legs. I will admit that I do not have the best financial situation. But, I have agreed despite that, no matter how long it may take for us to find Zayda a new place I will help my father pay for dog food for the two, since they are technically under my care. I pay for all vet expenses and I do go without and will go without to make sure that my dogs and my children have what they need. Zach has been seen by a vet when we first got him. Had his shots updated and dewormed. Now I will be taking him to the vet Tuesday to have him neutered. What is so wrong with my situation? I honestly thought that I was doing the best thing for Zayda, seeing as how our local animal shelter only gives the dogs a few days before being put down. I'm willing to accept the fact that though my financial situation may not be prime, my dog(s) will ALWAYS be taken care of and loved regardless of how badly they may act out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think hoarding starts when you put whatever it is that you are collecting, over and above any human contact, to the point where you cannot let people come over because of the junk or filth, and you are afraid of what people will think or say about whatever it is you are hoarding, so you give up people for junk or pets that aren't really pets, but just inhabitants, cohabitating with you.

Now some of us have people in our lives that are afraid of our dog breed, or do not like dogs, and we should not feel compelled to give them up to satisfy these people. And some people are not going to come over because of our dogs -- there are weirdows everywhere. But when it becomes the rule and not the exception, the problem may not be everyone else in the world.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

knwilk44 said:


> Once Zayda finds a new home or her previous owners, there will be no other dogs in my home.


Why not just give her to a rescue, since they'll make sure she's spayed, chipped, and placed in a responsible home??
They can do a much better job than can you, in rehoming her. 
That alone (your insistence on hanging on to her) tells me there's something _wrong_ here.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I always feel a little sorry for hoarders. I don't think they start out wanting to hurt the animals.....they just end up getting overwhelmed and maybe feel a little shame to admit to people they need help.

There was an older lady in our town that had over 30 cats. The law went in there and the reporters to take tons of pictures and posted all her information in the newspaper. The HS came out and made a bunch of quotes about how evil this lady was.

Well, other parts of this story started coming out also........this lady had always been known as the cat lady...even before she became the "old lady down the road" She use to be in rescue. She got sick....but the neighborhood kids still bought their stray kitty's to her house. It was also released that the cat lady had called the HS twice a week for 4 mths trying to get them to come get all the cats. She had also been trying to get ahold of rescues around here to come get the cats. The lady and her daughter had tried to adopt any and all cats out. The lady said she even begged her long time vet to help her.

It wasn't until a home health nurse called after she seen all the cats. 

The show Hoarders says that these people have a form of OCD. I can't even imagine how hard it is for them. Sometimes I feel like a Hoarder. I have 4 dogs. People always give me the "big eyes" when I tell them that. They always go OMG. I think I take pretty good care of them. 

I think somebody is a hoarder when animals start dying....and that person doesn't even notice. Did anybody see that hoarding episode where the man hoarded rats? OMG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rats? Kind of like Willard. No, I did not see that, ick!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

jetscarbie said:


> I think somebody is a hoarder when animals start dying....and that person doesn't even notice. Did anybody see that hoarding episode where the man hoarded rats? OMG


I remember that episode. I think his wife suddenly died a few years earlier and it was all down hill from there with him.

There were thousand + rats that literally ate away at his house. It took someone showing him a dying rat that had been attacked by another for him to allow a crew come in and take them away. This man was very sick as a result, it was a really sad story.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Years ago, I mean 10yrs. ago now, a single mom lived across the street from my folks. Her kids were all sired by different dads and she was, herself, a welfare mom. It was just a really sad situation. 
She was being evicted and was moving into low-income housing - well, she had all these cats. Cats she'd taken in off the street which, as you know, is not difficult to do, there's always so many.
Well, we worked with a/c at that time, had a very small _dog_ rescue project - 1-2 dogs at a time, was all. 
Somehow we got roped into helping this woman with her cats. 
Well, we went there and dear God. There was so much junk and just...junk, byproducts of living, basically, all crammed in the house. Kids stuff all over, beds lying apart (frames, head boards, pillows, bedding, strewn all over), just _junk. _
And amidst it all, a bunch of cat. I think 11 total. Of course, cat crap and litter strewn about too, and urine I'm sure.
One was a mama with kittens, I remember that. And they had fleas so bad that there were fleas jumping up on us as we walked through, where mama cat was lying, fleas were bouncing around like popcorn devouring those kittens.
We boxed up all the cats, most were in some stages of sickness, but we got them fixed up. 
One of the others was preggers, she went into labor early, from stress I presume, and had one kitten, born barely alive. It died in my hands 
We got the rest of the kittens fixed up, everyone flea treated and vaccines, etc. took the sick ones to the shelter where they were put to sleep.

This woman wanted one of the cats back and I refused. She wasn't even supposed to have cats there at her new place, but was going to sneak it in. Also seeing the condition they were all in, what a freaking mess.

And I think, what makes a hoarder, is a person (such as the one this thread was started about) takes in a dog, or cat, or whatever it is, and doesn't want to give it up, despite that they are a very poor placement for a pet and a rescue could actually do a lot better for said pet, but they refuse to give it up, blinded by their own wants and desires rather than what is good for said pet.

This woman thought she was helping these cats. How can letting them be sick and flea infested and let them make your kids sick be _good_ for that cat, or for yourself??

It's like there is a huge blind spot. They can't see reality and instead blindly believe they are doing these animals a favor.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I agree that it's hoarding when you don't have the time and money for your animals. However, I don't think it is a problem if you are going without things for yourself to provide for your animals (unless of course you aren't eating or something crazy, because if you go that far, you eventually will be in no condition to care for the animals.) We don't have a lot of money. In fact, we have very little money. But we still buy high quality food for our dogs, get them all the vet care they need, and we have time for them. We also have 3 birds which get good care. Sure, we're more in debt with them than we would be without them, but that's our decision. (Not saying that anyone here said it wasn't. Certain people in our family think it's ridiculous that we spend so much on our animals when we don't have much money.)


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> And I think, what makes a hoarder, is a person (such as the one this thread was started about) takes in a dog, or cat, or whatever it is, and doesn't want to give it up, despite that they are a very poor placement for a pet and a rescue could actually do a lot better for said pet, but they refuse to give it up, blinded by their own wants and desires rather than what is good for said pet.
> 
> 
> *It's like there is a huge blind spot. They can't see reality and instead blindly believe they are doing these animals a favor*.


I think this post really hits the nail on the head. I believe true hoarders suffer from some kind of break with reality. It actually becomes an acceptable situation to them and way to manage other aspects of their life that aren't going as well. 

I relate it to drugs or alcohol. Many addicts initially turned to substances in order to manage some other overwhelming feeling or negative situation in their lives. Initially the drugs/alcohol helped deal with these emotions, but eventually it becomes a problem that is much bigger than the addict and needs intervention from outside sources. 

Watching shows like Hoarders, I've realized that these people suffer some traumatic event(s), and they are emotionally unable to deal with the emotional turmoil that results. They redirect their attention away from this overwhelming situation (like the rat man's obsession with rats starting after his wife's death) to something else like accumulating objects or animals. The qualities that we cherish and love in our pets are what keeps these people going as well. 

However, they are completely unable and unwilling to accept reality on reality's terms. It becomes an obsession...an urge greater than reason and logic. So when we tear out our hair and ask: How could they do this? How can they live like that? We will never understand it from their perspective unless we were that deep in. How can a drug addict sell herself on the street or steal from her family? Because that is a need far greater than reason or logic or health or happiness. It's a drive that is greater than your need for survival. 

I'm not excusing the behavior. Just very interesting to me how these types of obsessions and addictions develop over time. True hoarders need psychological and behavioral therapy. I don't believe getting rid of the animals will solve anything for these people. They need healing from within or I believe they will be doomed to repeat the vicious cycle.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This local case is a sad one. 
The judge that is trying it is asking for a psyche eval before he sentences( I believe they plead no contest) Because of this case MI and other states are introducing animal abuser lists. There should also be a rescue listing on what rescues that are not on the up and up. 
Alleged Allegan County dog hoarder also has 97-dog history in Grand Rapids case | MLive.com
This is a good link for rescues in my area to be knowledgeable on.....the flippers on CL should all have such schooling: http://www.michiganpetfund.org/userfiles/file/Michigan Pet Fund Rescue Certification Program.pdf


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I don't believe getting rid of the animals will solve anything for these people. They need healing from within or I believe they will be doomed to repeat the vicious cycle.


I agree. The person this thread was originally about has something very lacking in her life, it sounds like. Which is sad. But I know many people like this right in our own area too. Take in dogs, "try them on" and boom, out the door a few days or weeks later.

Even back when we went through the cat thing I knew the woman would acquire more kitties or whatever. And when dealing with people who've turned animal hoarder, same thing. Taking the pets won't help, not really


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I have had to learn as much as I can about hoarders because of my mom. I learned the term "squalor" and to me that is when it becomes a bad situation when the animals are kept in squalor conditions. 
In this economic disaster who isn't scrimping here and there when you have to. It certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't have multiple animals and even having 5 dogs or a few more isn't hoarding. When you have 70 living in filth aka squalor conditions that is hoarding.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

selzer said:


> Rats? Kind of like Willard. No, I did not see that, ick!


Yes, just like Willard. It was very sad.




 
I've been around druggies and drinkers my whole life. I've seen the personalities of addicted people. It truly is the underbelly of life. When I watch shows like Hoarders.......These people always remind me of the same people I knew that had drug problems. It almost seems like the same thing except without drugs, but the drugs are replaced with stuff or animals.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There seem to be a lot of mental illnesses that seem to make people unable to see properly what they are living with. Which makes it really hard to make good choices, if you do not see a problem. Look at the seriously overweight children in this country. I am not talking chubby, I am talking 2-4x a weight where they would otherwise be obese. Yes, there are kids with gland-problems, but not all of them. I think lots of parents simply refuse to see anything negative when it comes to their children, whether that is seriously overweight children, terribly withdrawn children, or extreme and disturbing behavior in children. 

It is probably all the same disease, just different in how it is manifested, or different coping methods are used to *** cross that out, the same coping method is used to deal with the disease, just a different object: the family of the addict, refuses to acknowledge how the addiction is affecting them or his life; the hoarder refuses to acknowledge the unhealthy disturbing conditions they are living in; the parent refuses to acknowledge they are killing their child with food; and on and on. 

Is life that hard to face that we need to drowned it out with drugs, alcohol, food, things? To the point where the coping mechanisms are making life so much worse? It is sad. I think it is a spiral, the more you hoard the worse you feel, the worse you feel the more you eat, the more you eat the heavier you get, the heavier you get, the worse you feel, to feel better, to feel alive, to feel something you buy or eat or medicate, and it gets worse and worse and worse, until you are typing something crazy on the internet instead of going home, washing the dishes, and spending time with your hoard of dogs.


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## von Bolen (Mar 30, 2012)

I have to admit, i do window-shop GSD's alot. But I know what I can and can't afford.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

My opinion--

If someone has one or a few dogs/pets but is struggling financially to care for them, but they are receiving basic care-- that is not ideal but is not neglect, abuse, or hoarding.

If someone has one or a few dogs/pets and is not providing them with basic care (such as food, shelter, reasonably clean living environment, necessary vet care) that is neglect, not hoarding.

Hoarding generally refers to a situation where a person has a *large number of animals* and is unable to care for them properly yet refuses to rehome any or may continue to bring in more, usually resulting in an unfit environment (dirty, may be pest/parasites) and often the animals are sick and not receiving proper vet care. 

I am pretty sure a person with a couple of pets would never be considered a hoarder, nor would someone who gets one or two pets at a time and then gives them away and gets another one. Even if 2 or 3 dogs is more than they can care for, I really don't think it would be considered hoarding. Maybe neglect, or just being a bad/unfit owner. 
Heck, some people can't care for one dog and just shouldn't own dogs period. That doesn't make them a hoarder if they have one dog and aren't caring for it properly.


Having taken in a litter of abandoned kittens, I can kind of see how it can get to the point of having more than you planned to, because once you have them what do you do if no one else wants them? 
I rescued a litter of 7 abandoned (feral) kittens several years ago after unexpectedly coming across them in my backyard while gardening. I tried to find a rescue group to help, called every no-kill shelter/rescue I could find and none could take them. I bottle-fed them and got them spayed and neutered when they were old enough, and looked for homes. I found a few people who were interested but one two people actually came to see them and just one person actually took a kitten home. Once they are past the "baby" stage it is even harder to find homes, and there I was with 6 kittens getting older... I did find a friend who took one when they were 6 months old, then a coworker of a relative took another one a few months later but I still have four of them. I'd originally planned to keep maybe one kitten from the litter or possibly two... I guess I could have dumped them at the pound or a kill shelter but the shelters here are so full there is a good chance they'd never make it out. 

ETA:


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


>


Is that what you call a basket of cheer?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Falkosmom said:


> Is that what you call a basket of cheer?


Yes, and if you've never had 6-7 kittens cuddle up on top of you and start purring all at once, you're really missing out! :wub:

Actually that photo was right after I found them, they were actually in that flowerpot turned on it's side when I found them in a corner of my garden.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Chicagocanine said:


> Yes, and if you've never had 6-7 kittens cuddle up on top of you and start purring all at once, you're really missing out! :wub:
> 
> Actually that photo was right after I found them, they were actually in that flowerpot turned on it's side when I found them in a corner of my garden.


I know what it is like to have my furnace quit in the middle of the night and not even know it till I woke up in the morning, unable to move, buried alive under a sea of dogs and cats!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

One night both our kids were out - now, 1 dog is my son's, and sleeps on his bed - my daughter is "in charge" of 3 dogs, Ruger, Coda (Doxie) and Layla (brain damaged Dachshund). So that's 4. 
Then a few fosters and our regulars, 3 of whom sleep on our bed already. 

So there was a wind storm and thunder and lightening and guess what? We had some 10 dogs on our bed that night! FUN!!!

I married the sweetest man EVERRRRR :wub:

He's always saying he can't figure out why the dogs would want to snuggle up to us to keep warm since they are much warmer than humans! LOL


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Last night was pretty darn cold for May. And I am too stubborn to go and turn the furnace back on. So, I thought Babsy would stay in the bed and keep me warm. Nope, she sometimes will, but it has to be bloody cold, and I suppose last night did not qualify.


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