# Cutting out multiple protein sources... Help needed



## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

My 7 year old has had problems with allergies for about 2 years now. I had skin testing done at the vet, and it was a long annoying battle to physically get the results in my hand.... that's a story for another time...

Anyway, 2 years later... I find out she is allergic to Beef, Venison, Lamb, Duck, and Mixed Fish.

Now, I am kind of lost as to what to give her other than Chicken and Turkey. I've had trouble feeding her Pork... Her stomach doesn't really agree with it, and it's the only thing she has turned her nose up at.

Losing Venison kind of sucks because it has been extremely easy to get from friends who hunt. Most of the time they give it to me for free if it's been in their freezer for a while.

And, what does 'mixed fish' even mean? 

Not sure what to do now.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Feed turkey. It's fairly cheap and readily available. Be glad it's turkey, that you can feed, rather than something like ostrich.


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## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

Elaine said:


> Feed turkey. It's fairly cheap and readily available. Be glad it's turkey, that you can feed, rather than something like ostrich.


The problem is, I only have 2 protein sources I can feed her right now Chicken and Turkey.

I'm trying to figure out what else I can feed to get 3-5 sources.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You don't need variety if you are feeding a balanced diet. You need to feed what she can eat and if chicken and turkey is it, then that's it.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

AAndrews, was the testing done at a dermatology vet or at the primary care vet? Was it the intradermal test or the serum allergy test (based on blood-work)?


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## Monster'sDad (Jul 29, 2012)

I have question. Up to this point how many different proteins did she eat before the allergy symptoms began?


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

AAndrews19 said:


> The problem is, I only have 2 protein sources I can feed her right now Chicken and Turkey.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what else I can feed to get 3-5 sources.


rabbit
bison


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What kind of fish? Can she sardines? Catfish?

I know of a RAW source close to you that might sell rabbit. I think he's in the Harrisburg area.

Check your PM's!!!


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## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

San said:


> AAndrews, was the testing done at a dermatology vet or at the primary care vet? Was it the intradermal test or the serum allergy test (based on blood-work)?


It was done at the vet, no blood work. It was the test from a skin sample.


Monster'sDad said:


> I have question. Up to this point how many different proteins did she eat before the allergy symptoms began?


 her allergies began way before I started Raw feeding.



Jax08 said:


> What kind of fish? Can she sardines? Catfish?
> 
> I know of a RAW source close to you that might sell rabbit. I think he's in the Harrisburg area.
> 
> Check your PM's!!!


I got your Pm, thank you! I'll have to look into that. 

The results say she has a low positive to 'mixed fish' I'm not sure what falls under mixed fish.


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## Monster'sDad (Jul 29, 2012)

Elaine said:


> You don't need variety if you are feeding a balanced diet. You need to feed what she can eat and if chicken and turkey is it, then that's it.


Given your options are narrow, feeding multiple proteins is probably not a good idea. Stay with one and hopefully you won't have to switch. Chicken has a complete amino acid profile so I wouldn't worry. 

Perhaps some lentils and brown rice would round things out a bit.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

You could try goat and mutton as well...


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Allergies are sign of deficiency. A break in the chain of a metabolic process. An imbalance . You correct the imbalance that _prevents and/or scavanges _excess histimine, by supporting w/foods (real meat, vitamins/minerals) and a little boost w/antiox. By avoiding "triggers" as in "allergens" you are simply avoiding. By correcting the imbalance you are treating...Hence RAW food...pure natural amino acids and enzymes for uptake, conversion and utilization. Sometimes switching to RAW isn't enough at first. Adding in a little supplimental help to fuse the gap in a biological process, will in time correct the imbalance.

Skin scrapings only show a reaction based on (or because of) deficiency. Some foods contain more histamine or promote histamine release...finding the balance is the key. Magnesium (is one) and Vit. C - natural anti-histamines. B-12 (specifically methylcobalmon)/folate combo, Essential amino acids (already in the meat).

If cannot do raw try supplimenting SAMe...SAMe de-activates histamine.


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## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> Allergies are sign of deficiency. A break in the chain of a metabolic process. An imbalance . You correct the imbalance that _prevents and/or scavanges _excess histimine, by supporting w/foods (real meat, vitamins/minerals) and a little boost w/antiox. By avoiding "triggers" as in "allergens" you are simply avoiding. By correcting the imbalance you are treating...Hence RAW food...pure natural amino acids and enzymes for uptake, conversion and utilization. Sometimes switching to RAW isn't enough at first. Adding in a little supplimental help to fuse the gap in a biological process, will in time correct the imbalance.
> 
> Skin scrapings only show a reaction based on (or because of) deficiency. Some foods contain more histamine or promote histamine release...finding the balance is the key. Magnesium (is one) and Vit. C - natural anti-histamines. B-12 (specifically methylcobalmon)/folate combo, Essential amino acids (already in the meat).
> 
> If cannot do raw try supplimenting SAMe...SAMe de-activates histamine.


I have been feeding RAW since February, and plan to continue.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

AAndrews19 said:


> I have been feeding RAW since February, and plan to continue.


I knew your were feeding RAWdidn't know for how long though. In some dogs the switch has immediate results, while others it could take years to correct the imbalance while others will always need a little help due to enviro. vaccines and a whole host of other reasons.

I was just putting out there because so many people are on the quest for the perfect kibble and/or the amount of money they spend on drugs trying to minimize the discomfort to their dog and find the route cause via allergy testing. 
I too have gone through the kibble trials, LID and even on RAW couldn't fix (but did minimize) my dogs "winter" itch...no matter how much I appealed to the vet that it wasn't chicken - they insisted on steroids, allergy tests and "try" benedryl and their hydrolized script food (chicken), I went with royal canin for that reason. It didn't help, he had only two steroid shots ever. I even bought two air cleaners in case of dust mites and vaccumed every other day. Yet they couldn't tell me why he was itchy in the winter and what to do about it. I couldn't increase fat as he cannot digest...fish oil did nothing (along with trials of other suppliments), I spent a whack of money too. 
There are so many factors. Even a Vit./Min. suppliment may be all that is needed, but a synthetic one (which is what is in kibble), and the by-products of manufacture may cause.
So once the body is toxic and deficient, these stressers continue to rob the body of certain elements it needs to stay in balance...Switching to RAW is The best start...ascertaining what/where the deficiencies are that are allowing histamine to react is where IMO Vets should be looking to spend your money to fix your dogs'
Allergies are not normal. They are a sign that something is wrong. By simply avoiding a food (which of course you should do) is not a solution. 
I know the frustration (everyone's) is my point,...I just wanted to share what I have learned in an effort to give others a change in direction in hopes that it helps them and especially their dog


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## Monster'sDad (Jul 29, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> Allergies are sign of deficiency. A break in the chain of a metabolic process. An imbalance . You correct the imbalance that _prevents and/or scavanges _excess histimine, by supporting w/foods (real meat, vitamins/minerals) and a little boost w/antiox. By avoiding "triggers" as in "allergens" you are simply avoiding. By correcting the imbalance you are treating...Hence RAW food...pure natural amino acids and enzymes for uptake, conversion and utilization. Sometimes switching to RAW isn't enough at first. Adding in a little supplimental help to fuse the gap in a biological process, will in time correct the imbalance.
> 
> Skin scrapings only show a reaction based on (or because of) deficiency. Some foods contain more histamine or promote histamine release...finding the balance is the key. Magnesium (is one) and Vit. C - natural anti-histamines. B-12 (specifically methylcobalmon)/folate combo, Essential amino acids (already in the meat).
> 
> If cannot do raw try supplimenting SAMe...SAMe de-activates histamine.


This is not a medically supported theory. Would you consider a person's allergy to peanuts or bee stings a deficiency? 

The cause of an allergic response is a faulty immune system not a deficiency. No supplement in the world, nor romance about raw feeding, will help a true allergy.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I had a dog who was rawfed for years and allergic to chicken. Even if this theory which I have never heard of works, how long am I going to let my dog be miserable? 

I switched him to a fish based kibble and never looked back and he lived out the rest of his life itchy and icky nasty poop free. 

If we *did this* then how come all dogs fed the same way are not allergic? I honestly think it is a genetic issue.


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## Monster'sDad (Jul 29, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I had a dog who was rawfed for years and allergic to chicken. Even if this theory which I have never heard of works, how long am I going to let my dog be miserable?
> 
> I switched him to a fish based kibble and never looked back and he lived out the rest of his life itchy and icky nasty poop free.
> 
> If we *did this* then how come all dogs fed the same way are not allergic? I honestly think it is a genetic issue.


It most certainly is because the breeds this is most common in are also the most popular. Bad breeding has a compounding effect, maladies get worse and worse in successive generations.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I had a dog who was rawfed for years and allergic to chicken. Even if this theory which I have never heard of works, how long am I going to let my dog be miserable?
> 
> I switched him to a fish based kibble and never looked back and he lived out the rest of his life itchy and icky nasty poop free.
> 
> If we *did this* then how come all dogs fed the same way are not allergic? I honestly think it is a genetic issue.


You wouldn't let him be miserable, and if you found something that works that is great. It may mean you found the right nutrients (that work synergistically) that support the deficiency. Genetics play a huge roll in a myriad of disease, some animals don't have a certain enzyme (intrinsic factor) that transport B-12 to be utiliized resulting in anemia no matter how much you put in. In those cases it has to be injected or intrinsic factor supplimented. There are enviro. factors - vaccines, water, pesticides, houshold furnishings and on and on...these influence the balance. 

If you look at a bag of kibble (I wouldn't know as I haven't picked one up in almost 4yrs. so may have changed)...You have a list of ingredients and a basic list that states % of protein, fat, moisture etc. - either no more then or no less then...but is there "Nutritional Facts" like on Human foods, the list that gives the % of daily value based on cups....for example Vit. A - 2%, or Calcium 25%. Mg. of sodium. and so on? It doesn't say 100% of DV of Vit. A, or Calcium or 'C' either. It cannot. And I believe it doesn't have to, re: AAFCO.
It is assumed of kibble to provide "perfect balance" - there is no such thing as every dog is different, it is a guideline (more a misnomer) allergies are a symptom, not a disease...but you don't want to mess with supplimenting Vit/minerals when on kibble diet as you cannot gauge how much they are or are not getting.



Monster'sDad said:


> This is not a medically supported theory. Would you consider a person's allergy to peanuts or bee stings a deficiency?
> 
> *The cause of an allergic response is a faulty immune system not a deficiency*. No supplement in the world, nor romance about raw feeding, will help a true allergy.


So what caused the faulty immune system? deficiency and/or imbalance. Take for example the right balance of calc./phos. If over time, tooo much of one and not the other causes disease. Too much zinc, not enough copper - Nutrients and balance are ONE factor, others already noted above. Correct the imbalance, the endocrine system is supported and the body restores order. It certainly isn't THAT simple, but in some cases it is.

So...how is feeding a nutritious diet w/live enzymes and 100% of the "essential" amino acids (these are needed for every function in the body, essential being they have to come from outside source - food), does NOT play a role in immune function and therefore allergies??? And how come when someone is anemic tehy are told to get more iron, eat more red meats (B-12) to restore order, but yet no suppliment/food will help a true allergy...allergy is a symptom of deficiency, an imbalance or illness or toxicity....much deeper. Hence immune system malfunction

Peanuts, bee sting, well that goes back to the womb and/or enviro., vax's. and deficiency...cause and effect


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

AAndrews19 said:


> My 7 year old has had problems with allergies for about 2 years now. I had skin testing done at the vet, and it was a long annoying battle to physically get the results in my hand.... that's a story for another time...
> 
> Anyway, 2 years later... I find out she is allergic to Beef, Venison, Lamb, Duck, and Mixed Fish.



Here's what I would do. First I would get her at a good, stable point by feeding the chicken and turkey. I would use NO other ingredients - no supplements, veggies, fruits, treats, etc. JUST the chicken and turkey.

If possible I would find a source that gets me the product as close to after processing as possible. That way you won't have any additives to worry about (like the "solutions" they package whole chickens in).

I would get her to a point where she is symptom free for at LEAST 4 weeks.

Then I would add a SINGLE new protein - one of the ones she's allergic to.

I would start with about 10% of her duet being that new protein source and watch her for the next 2 weeks. If there are no changes, increase it to 25% of her diet and continue for another 2 weeks. No changes? go to 50% and leave her there for 4 weeks.

If there are no changes then I would add that protein source to her 'Can Eat' list and start back at the beginning with another protein source.

If, at any time, she shows sings of having problems with the new item - stop using it, put it on her 'CANNOT Eat' list and give her a good 4 weeks to get back to 'stable' before trying again with a different source.


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## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

I appreciate everyone's input/ help. 

GatorBytes, you're kind of losing me with your side of the discussion. I honestly just get really confused trying to make sense of the info you are trying to put out. 

Does anyone have any clue what 'Mixed Fish' means?!


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## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

One good thing that came from this vet visit... we had blood work done to check for hyperthyroid, because from what I understand that can cause skin issues. The results came back, she isn't hyperthyroid, but the part that really made me happy was the vet said she is has the health equivalent to a of a 2 y/o. She will be 8 in December.

I'm pretty confident that switching to RAW has improved her overall health... allergies aside.

Also, they were raving about how good Sheldon looks. And how beautiful his coat looks. Sheldon is 8 months old, and has been fed RAW since I got him at 3 months old.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

GatorBytes said:


> *Allergies are sign of deficiency. A break in the chain of a metabolic process. An imbalance . You correct the imbalance that prevents and/or scavanges excess histimine*, by supporting w/foods (real meat, vitamins/minerals) and a little boost w/antiox. By avoiding "triggers" as in "allergens" you are simply avoiding. By correcting the imbalance you are treating...Hence RAW food...pure natural amino acids and enzymes for uptake, conversion and utilization. Sometimes switching to RAW isn't enough at first. Adding in a little supplimental help to fuse the gap in a biological process, will in time correct the imbalance.
> 
> Skin scrapings only show a reaction based on (or because of) deficiency. Some foods contain more histamine or promote histamine release...finding the balance is the key. *Magnesium (is one) and Vit. C - natural anti-histamines. B-12 (specifically methylcobalmon)/folate combo, Essential amino acids (already in the meat).*
> 
> If cannot do raw try supplimenting SAMe...SAMe de-activates histamine.





AAndrews19 said:


> GatorBytes, you're kind of losing me with your side of the discussion. I honestly just get really confused trying to make sense of the info you are trying to put out.


LOL:laugh:...sorry, try again.

*Inactivation of histamine* in the extracellular space of the CNS is *achieved by methylation* through neuronal histamine _N_-methyltransferase (HNMT; EC 2.1.1.8) (49, 69, 456) (Fig. 2). Histamine methylation requires *S-adenosyl-methionine* *(SAMe)* as the methyl donor (220, 592, 651). 

WHY would histamine levels tell you about methylation function? 
*Methionine is a methyl carrying amino acid + ATP/magnesium = SAMe. *
SAMe goes throughout the body delivering methyl groups to over 400 different reactions.
One way histamine is de-activated (eliminated) is by receiving a methyl group from SAMe. So if there is low methylation, there is low SAMe, and the histamine levels are higher because of the lack of methyl groups to deactivate it. If there is high methylation, there is *higher amounts of SAMe*, and lots of *histamine can be deactivated. *


Another big source is directly from foods. Some people may have a problem eliminating histamine from their foods and this causes reactions which LOOK LIKE allergies, but are not true IgE mediated allergies. *You may see a histamine reaction which is just "too high" levels of histamine and not because an antigen caused an immune reaction to something. *

*If someone has low methylation* (*maybe B12 deficiency or metal interference*, etc.) then you may have high histamine levels and a problem eliminating the additional histamine from foods. You would also have more chemical running around in the body triggering histamine reactions.

What lowers histamine?
Taking an antihistamine is one way. Antihistamines typically work by either inhibiting the release of histamine (like during an immune reaction) or blocking the uptake of histamine (like from food). Magnesium and vitamin C are natural anti-histamines. Vitamin C can destroy histamine directly. This is why these supplements are recommended when you are sick for any reason. 
Another way to reduce histamine levels is to supply antioxidants. Free radicals are produced from both external sources and internal natural biochemical reactions. Too many free radicals provoke histamine reactions. Natural "phenols" in foods such as polyphenols, flavenoids, bioflavenoids, beta-caroteine and all those other things that No-Fenol appears to make more available to the body act as antihistamines. These natural phenols are also the trendy "antioxidants" for eliminating free radicals in the body which many places are advertising now. They neutralize the free radicals which cause histamine reactions. Less free radicals, less histamine reaction. These phenols coming from the fruits and vegetables lower histamine by 2 or 3 different mechanisms. Again, it gets complicated and there is no ONE definitive pathway

_Above is quoted, below is my summary_

So...B12 (meythlcobalmine) for methylation (this is also related to nerve function), deficiency = high histamine levels (hence reaction to higher histamine foods)
Magnesium for Methionine (amino acid already in RAW meat) conversion to SAMe
SAMe to deliver the methyl group that de-activates histamine
Vit C - natural anti-histamine

Note about quote: b-12 or "metal interference" (adjuvants in vaccines)

Does this help?


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## AAndrews19 (Nov 29, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> _Above is quoted, below is my summary_
> 
> So...B12 (meythlcobalmine) for methylation (this is also related to nerve function), deficiency = high histamine levels (hence reaction to higher histamine foods)
> Magnesium for Methionine (amino acid already in RAW meat) conversion to SAMe
> ...


So, basically, these are the supplements you are suggesting?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SAMe information - AAndrews, remember that natural does not equal side effect free. This will interact with many drugs out there so be aware of what you are giving her. I've heard good things about SAMe, not a thing for this particular use, but good things. Here is a link to tell you more about it.

SAMe: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

AAndrews19 said:


> So, basically, these are the supplements you are suggesting?


Yes because you are on RAW
B-12/folate combo (methly form not cyano. form - cyanocobalamin is synthetic)
(use for couple months, give a break for day or two here and there)
Magnesium 100mg (split am/pm)
Vit-C if will tolerate
Anti-ox rich foods - green leafy - juiced in blender

OP - SAMe if on kibble - may or may not be effective, you could sub others but hard to trust sprayed on minerals in kibble, although Mag. toxicity is rare...read first
Magnesium Toxicity

See why RAw is best


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> SAMe information - AAndrews, remember that natural does not equal side effect free. This will interact with many drugs out there so be aware of what you are giving her. I've heard good things about SAMe, not a thing for this particular use, but good things. Here is a link to tell you more about it.
> 
> SAMe: Uses, Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings - WebMD


Good info, but creating SAMe through natural process diff. then suppl...however good too note that it interacts w/tramadol for those who's dogs are on pain meds...I don't think many are on antidepress. though, but best to check meds. against


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