# Proper dose of Vitamin E? Little perturbed at vet office...



## kam214

I currently feed Sasha Orijen 6 Fish along with a salmon oil/omega 3/6 supplement. I also give her ONE vitamin E softgel per day TOTAL in her dinner with the oil. The dosage for ONE softgel is 400 iu.

She was at the ortho vet recently for a possible biceps tear. She is on Metacam currently for that. Metacam is causing her to vomit and get diarrhea so I stopped it.

I called the other day and talked to the tech that also works the front desk regarding her tummy upset. I advised the tech what I feed Sasha daily and I was going to start her on Vitamin C for the inflammation and also a daily chewable glucosamine tab for her joints and inflammation.

The tech rudely told me that I am going to KILL my dog with the dosage of Vitamin E I am giving. Really???? Everything I have read says 400 iu per day is 100% fine! She told me to STOP the Vitamin E immediately. For info, Sasha is 1 year and 2 months old and weighs 58 pounds.

She also told me there is no way that Vitamin C is an anti-inflammatory. Ummmmmm k. Also not according to my research. 

Anyways I got kind of irritated with her because she was SO argumentative that she was right and I was wrong. I told her to have the VET call me about it. No phone call last night or all day today. At this point I am pissed and will be complaining to the vet about her.

All of you nutrition guru's...what do you suggest for a dosage of vitamin E and C in my situation? I am just trying to arm myself with info, I know nothing replaced the advice of a vet, I am so annoyed at this tech though. It's more her attitude that she knew everything, kept talking over me and was interrupting me to tell me I was wrong. Ugh. The actual ortho vet is AMAZING so this kind of sucks.


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## Jax08

The tech is a moron. You can give 800 iu a day and still be fine. 400 iu is the recommended dosage BY veterinarians. Just look it up, print it out and shove it in her face. I would also advise her to stop giving out medical advice since she is not a vet or a nutritionist. Talk to the vet about her behavior.

Vitamin C is good for anti-inflammatory. C is water soluble so there is no maximum dosage. Whatever the body doesn't need will simply get peed out. If you read the research, whole food source C is far superior to isolated components we find in the pills they sell so look for C with bioflavanoids (sp) in it. Start at 500 mg and increase to 1000 mg. Sometimes they get diarrhea so increase slowly as they body adjusts.


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## doggiedad

definitely slam her. 



Jax08 said:


> >>>> The tech is a moron. You can give 800 iu a day and still be fine. 400 iu is the recommended dosage BY veterinarians. Just look it up, print it out and shove it in her face. I would also advise her to stop giving out medical advice since she is not a vet or a nutritionist. Talk to the vet about her behavior.<<<<
> 
> Vitamin C is good for anti-inflammatory. C is water soluble so there is no maximum dosage. Whatever the body doesn't need will simply get peed out. If you read the research, whole food source C is far superior to isolated components we find in the pills they sell so look for C with bioflavanoids (sp) in it. Start at 500 mg and increase to 1000 mg. Sometimes they get diarrhea so increase slowly as they body adjusts.


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## GatorBytes

kam214 said:


> I currently feed Sasha Orijen 6 Fish along with a salmon oil/omega 3/6 supplement. I also give her ONE vitamin E softgel per day TOTAL in her dinner with the oil. The dosage for ONE softgel is 400 iu.
> 
> She was at the ortho vet recently for a possible biceps tear. She is on Metacam currently for that. Metacam is causing her to vomit and get diarrhea so I stopped it.
> 
> I called the other day and talked to the tech that also works the front desk regarding her tummy upset. I advised the tech what I feed Sasha daily and I was going to start her on Vitamin C for the inflammation and also a daily chewable glucosamine tab for her joints and inflammation.
> 
> The tech rudely told me that I am going to KILL my dog with the dosage of Vitamin E I am giving. Really???? Everything I have read says 400 iu per day is 100% fine! She told me to STOP the Vitamin E immediately. For info, Sasha is 1 year and 2 months old and weighs 58 pounds.
> 
> She also told me there is no way that Vitamin C is an anti-inflammatory. Ummmmmm k. Also not according to my research.
> 
> Anyways I got kind of irritated with her because she was SO argumentative that she was right and I was wrong. I told her to have the VET call me about it. No phone call last night or all day today. At this point I am pissed and will be complaining to the vet about her.
> 
> All of you nutrition guru's...what do you suggest for a dosage of vitamin E and C in my situation? I am just trying to arm myself with info, I know nothing replaced the advice of a vet, I am so annoyed at this tech though. It's more her attitude that she knew everything, kept talking over me and was interrupting me to tell me I was wrong. Ugh. The actual ortho vet is AMAZING so this kind of sucks.


Correction.......METACAM more likely to kill her....very bad, over scripted.

Yes C and Yes E...these two vitamins work synergistically...C w/bioflavonoids as Jax mentions...can go up to 2000mg at 500mg intervals 1-2 week intervals, if diarrhea starts (well could be the metacam - especially if black as it is known to case intestinal bleeding - but hey your vet will deal with that when that happens...with another drug of course!), then cut back to dose that poop was normal...that is Max dose needed...C has be used intravenously upwards of 10-20,000mg for systemic illness's so can't hurt at 2000mg. Vit E has been used upwards of 800 IU

The caution with "E" is the right type of E...we all know "natural" and D-Alpha Tocphorol...as opposed to DL-alpha...however, you should use a 4 E product...you should PM "Carmspack" or search her threads...she can better explain this - she has a wealth of knowledge that you can stick to the vet tech), This also suggested to me by my integrative vet.

Other cautions with E as they are fat soluable, so if slow metabolisim, or the energy being used is coming from other sources (grains), then and the fat stores are not being used up and E can acummulate...this could lead to blood thinning, bleeding disorder and anemia...But this would be over time and likely high doses
Solution - force the body to use fats by not giving grains and other carboydrates (white potato's)

Also to consider and to be safe is to cycle in the usage...give the body a chance to use...3 days on, 2 days off...


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## Josie/Zeus

I hear ya. I had to put the Vet tech in her place when I took my then 16 week old pup for shots- she wanted to cram all vax in that visit, parvo/rabies and I forget the rest... 
I told her I only wanted 2 vax max for that visit, we will come back in 2 weeks for the rabies shot and I don't care if I have to pay another office visit for it. She rudely tells me "with all due respect, it's the VET's decision how many vax your puppy should have today". 

My blood pressure shot up, I told her, "with all due respect, this is my puppy and I tell YOU what vax and when to give it to my pup, do NOT tell me stuff you know nothing about, what do YOU know at 19?" 

She goes back to the Vet, sounds like in tears since her eyes were red when she came back in the room with the Vet. The Vet herself was uber nice, I love her- very knowledgeable and talks to me in a professional, educated manner. 

I got what I wanted in the end. My pup got all his shots completed by the time he was 20 weeks old. No harm done to him, my mind was at ease. Vet office got paid more for extra office visit, everybody was happy.


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## GatorBytes

Josie/Zeus said:


> I hear ya. I had to put the Vet tech in her place when I took my then 16 week old pup for shots- she wanted to cram all vax in that visit, parvo/rabies and I forget the rest...
> I told her I only wanted 2 vax max for that visit, we will come back in 2 weeks for the rabies shot and I don't care if I have to pay another office visit for it. She rudely tells me "with all due respect, it's the VET's decision how many vax your puppy should have today".
> 
> My blood pressure shot up, I told her, "with all due respect, this is my puppy and I tell YOU what vax and when to give it to my pup, do NOT tell me stuff you know nothing about, what do YOU know at 19?"
> 
> She goes back to the Vet, sounds like in tears since her eyes were red when she came back in the room with the Vet. The Vet herself was uber nice, I love her- very knowledgeable and talks to me in a professional, educated manner.
> 
> I got what I wanted in the end. My pup got all his shots completed by the time he was 20 weeks old. No harm done to him, my mind was at ease. Vet office got paid more for extra office visit, everybody was happy.


 
Yah baby!.....GOOD FOR YOU! and for knowing a proper vaccine protocal...you should hop on over to the other thread re: Do You vaccinate...they are in need of your help, well their dogs are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jax08

Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Dogs

Look up Dr. Clemmons. For DM dogs, he recommends up to 2000 iu of vitamin E!


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## kam214

GatorBytes said:


> The caution with "E" is the right type of E...we all know "natural" and D-Alpha Tocphorol...as opposed to DL-alpha...however, you should use a 4 E product...you should PM "Carmspack" or search her threads...she can better explain this - she has a wealth of knowledge that you can stick to the vet tech), This also suggested to me by my integrative vet.


Yup. thanks to this forum's knowledge I have been giving her the 4 E's


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## kam214

So the vet called me back after I called the office AGAIN. That idiotic tech never gave the vet my message about Sasha's vomiting and diarrhea on the Metacam!!!!

Needless to say, the vet was PISSED that she never got the message from Ms. Know it All. The vet apologized profusely and gave me her personal cell number and told me to call her for ANYTHING in the future.

I told her about the Tech's attitude and she was not pleased...when I mentioned the Vitamin E debate, she readily told me her expertise was not in nutrition. She looked up the recommended dosage of vitamin E for a 60 pound dog in her veterinary manual and it said 100 iu per day. HOWEVER, she said that was just what the book reiterated and it did not mention anything about a different dosage if you were supplementing with Omega 3/6. She told me she would call UC Davis' canine nutrition unit and ask them. She said whatever answer they gave would be the right one. Apparently they are the foremost leading experts on canine nutrition.

It will be interesting to see what they say! I really like this vet. She is an Ortho Vet and I like that she readily admits nutrition is not her specialty, but that she helped me with a resource to find the correct answer. 

She told me to PLEASE call her cell phone tonight with an update on Sasha even if she was acting 100% normal. Obviously, we stopped the Metacam as well.

*ETA: UC Davis is USELESS. They said if I am using ANY AAFCO tested/approved dog food there is no need to supplement with ANYTHING at all. So, I asked if I fed Bil Jac (because it is AAFCO approved after all) I do not need to supplement??? They said NO. Utterly useless. How can they have an actual Canine Nutrition unit but yet they give out crap information like this????
*


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## GatorBytes

*ETA: UC Davis is USELESS. They said if I am using ANY AAFCO tested/approved dog food there is no need to supplement with ANYTHING at all. So, I asked if I fed Bil Jac (because it is AAFCO approved after all) I do not need to supplement??? They said NO. Utterly useless. How can they have an actual Canine Nutrition unit but yet they give out crap information like this????*

Ask them if they read "Food Pets Die For" by Anne Martin...it all started off because her dog died from zinc toxicity by food she had tested independently....just like the food "tested and approved" by the AAFCO

Seems the synthetic vitimins and minerals that are added/sprayed on after had glitch in the machinery, and overdosed that mineral...to toxic levels. 

You never really know if your getting enough or too much...spin the roulette wheel


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## Jax08

kam214 said:


> *ETA: UC Davis is USELESS. They said if I am using ANY AAFCO tested/approved dog food there is no need to supplement with ANYTHING at all. So, I asked if I fed Bil Jac (because it is AAFCO approved after all) I do not need to supplement??? They said NO. Utterly useless. How can they have an actual Canine Nutrition unit but yet they give out crap information like this????
> *


Maybe they are but maybe they didn't take into consideration that you were giving fish oil? If you were not supplementing at all, then they would be correct and you wouldn't need to supplement unless your dog were ill and you wanted the properties from the Vit E. If you are supplementing with fish oil, which used your body's vit e to process it and COULD therefore create a low E level then you should supplement. Who knows exactly what they were asked.


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## jprice103

Ummmm...time to find a new vet?


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## kam214

Jax08 said:


> Maybe they are but maybe they didn't take into consideration that you were giving fish oil? If you were not supplementing at all, then they would be correct and you wouldn't need to supplement unless your dog were ill and you wanted the properties from the Vit E. If you are supplementing with fish oil, which used your body's vit e to process it and COULD therefore create a low E level then you should supplement. Who knows exactly what they were asked.


Nope. I FULLY explained to them what I was feeding (fish oil, etc.) and why. She just repeated again that dogs do NOT need supplementation of any kind if they are given an AAFCO approved kibble.


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## kam214

jprice103 said:


> Ummmm...time to find a new vet?


Did you read my other follow up posts in this thread? I have no issue with my vet.


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## Jax08

You personally talk to them? So how much Vitamin E is in AAFCO approved kibble?


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## Magwart

I heard once that vet school nutrition programs are underwritten by pet food companies. I wonder if that's what's going on at Davis?


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## GatorBytes

Magwart said:


> I heard once that vet school nutrition programs are underwritten by pet food companies. I wonder if that's what's going on at Davis?


 
one hand shakes another...that's called business, and Vet medicine is big business


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## kam214

Jax08 said:


> You personally talk to them? So how much Vitamin E is in AAFCO approved kibble?


Yes, I personally called them. My vet offered to but I figured I would since I know exactly what my girl is getting and why.

I was shocked to say the least. Either I got an intern that knows nothing yet or...

She basically acted as though I were crazy for asking. When I made my statement about Bil-Jack to her, she said againnnnnnnn..."Well, if it is AAFCO approved dog food, you do not need to supplement." She talked briefly about how AAFCO must be the end all, know all, be all of dog food *insert sarcasm here*

Basically EVERY food produced in the US or imported into the US, has AAFCO approval correct? So Kibbles and Bits is fine too.

Gee...and I thought Orijen was a great food! Apparently at Davis, they think Bil-Jac, Kibbles and Bits and Orijen are ALL the same because they are ALL AAFCO approved. Kinda what she was saying...think of all the money I could save if I just switched to grocery store food! Sasha would LOVE Gravy Train and it IS AAFCO approved after all!!!

Oh, and to answer your question, I did not ask them how much E was in AAFCO rated foods. I know Orijen is already 400iu I believe but I have heard it gets "cooked out" so to speak and at the end of the day, your dog is not really getting that 400iu per day as it would appear on the bag. Whether it is Orijen or otherwise KWIM?

*UC Davis Nutritional Support Services for Small Animals: (530) 752-1393*

I do not remember the name of the girl I spoke with but it would be interesting if this was a "canned" response they are told to give regarding supplementation??


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## Jax08

Have you read the book "The End of Illness"? Haven't read it yet but it talks about our illnesses and synthetic vitamins causing many of our health issues. Might be a good read for you.


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## kam214

Jax08 said:


> Have you read the book "The End of Illness"? Haven't read it yet but it talks about our illnesses and synthetic vitamins causing many of our health issues. Might be a good read for you.


No...I have not read it. I was bringing up this topic because I know a LOT of people on the forum supplement with Omega 3 and 6 and Vitamin E combined. So are you saying you do not agree with supplementation either? I am confused...

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it but for them to say all AAFCO foods are essentially the same, is just not accurate.


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## Jax08

I don't agree with SYNTHETIC supplements.  I do agree with supplementing with whole food source supplements. What I've read on calcium supplements is just scary! It's rock and hardening your arteries. So I bake and grind up egg shells for our one CRF girl.

As far as O6, we and the dogs have plenty of O6 in our diets and don't need more but do need more O3 so any O6 that is added needs to be balanced carefully.

Jax as a raw diet and gets supplements on top of that.

I was just suggesting the book because it sounded like something that you might like.


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## kam214

Jax08 said:


> I don't agree with SYNTHETIC supplements.  I do agree with supplementing with whole food source supplements. What I've read on calcium supplements is just scary! It's rock and hardening your arteries. So I bake and grind up egg shells for our one CRF girl.
> 
> As far as O6, we and the dogs have plenty of O6 in our diets and don't need more but do need more O3 so any O6 that is added needs to be balanced carefully.
> 
> Jax as a raw diet and gets supplements on top of that.
> 
> I was just suggesting the book because it sounded like something that you might like.


Ahhhh that clears it up. Yes, I do agree with you there! I know Sasha's coat has gotten even softer and there is less shedding since I started the O3 and O6 Fish oil...the oil actually has 1118 mg of O3 and only 82 mg of O6 to be exact.  I am an avid reader so I'll buy it on Amazon.


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## Jax08

What fish oil are you giving? And what is the O6 source?


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## marbury

I think those phone technicians are probably trained to respond to an 'average' caller/owner, one who thinks Iams is the pinnacle of expensive dog food. I think uneducated people can do a lot of damage with unnecessary supplements (like calcium) so they may tend to err on the side of treating the phone customer like their baseline audience: a bit simple in the head. It's true; 'approved' kibbles are designed to address all the _necessary_ nutritional requirements for an _average_ dog. Luckily, here we have an excellent community of people who know how to take that necessary, average nutrition and turn it into fantastic, exceptional nutrition! After all, a lot of folks here do far more with their dogs than the average owner. Kibbles 'n Bits is supposed to provide 'nutrition' to a dog who probably spends 22 hours a day on the couch and 2 hours meandering about or relieving himself. Our dogs need GO GO GO food! 

My regular vet, no matter how awesome, has never suggested coconut oil. It's not that he's against it, it's just that it wasn't in his Science Diet-sponsored curriculum. So I have everybody here to thank for helping me get my dog's coat's shiny, healthy, and strong. Thanks!


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## kam214

Jax08 said:


> What fish oil are you giving? And what is the O6 source?


It is "Iceland Pure" pharmaceutical grade salmon oil. The mg's I gave is per teaspoon...

Let me know if you want any other info on it


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## Jax08

I"ve seen it.  I'll look it up. Thanks!

Does it say what the O6 source is? Is it in the fish or in another oil?


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## kam214

Jax08 said:


> I"ve seen it.  I'll look it up. Thanks!
> 
> Does it say what the O6 source is? Is it in the fish or in another oil?


On the bottle it says:
Ingredients: Salmon oil
Mixed Tocopherols (preservative)

That's it 

Oh..and for a laugh on the subject. The bottle says the Omega 3 and Omega 6 is, "not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO Dog and Cat Food nutrient Profile


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## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Dogs
> 
> Look up Dr. Clemmons. For DM dogs, he recommends up to 2000 iu of vitamin E!


When my dog got DM the vet had him on 2000 iu of vitamin E. It really seemed to help him for a little while.


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## Jax08

and there ya go...they are coming out with new upper guidelines all the time. All this technology and they are still guessing at what our bodies need for health. Look at how much they've upped Vit D for people in the last few years.


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