# Schutzhund Box



## workingdawgs (Jul 18, 2005)

I am interested in understanding more about using the box when working a young dog in bite work. Can anyone offer information about this technique? Pro's and con's, purpose, potential "screw ups" etc...


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm not sure I understand what "box" you are talking about? Are you talking about "table" work?? 

Courtney


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## workingdawgs (Jul 18, 2005)

I guess so, in the other threads, a box was specified but I imagine it is likely the same theory...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You can see a short youtube video here
scroll down a bit.


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## workingdawgs (Jul 18, 2005)

I did watch that particular video but I am looking more towards discussion purposes. 

I have heard of table training before and if my memory serves me right (which rarely it does lol) table training is used to take away the flight option and promote the fight response in a dog. I am looking for discussion about the merits of box/table training in protection.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The concept of "box and "table" are similar. We have both at our club for different purposes. 
The box is about a foot and a half off of the ground, it has sides and a back so that the dog can primarily see straight ahead. We use it primarily for the young dogs between 10 months and 14 months to strengthen bark, work the dog out of prey, and strengthen the bite on bisquit. The dog is worked from a distance, through suspicion and encouraged to keep the person at bay with strong barking by slowly increasing critical threshholds until you can give the bite while the dog is barking strong. We especially like this with over the top prey monsters that lock in prey and are difficult barkers. The dog learns through strength he can control the situation of the decoy.
The table on the other hand is a round platform about 4 feet off the ground and has no sides. Usually round with post in middle that has stakeout tie attached. Nate Harves had a similar diagram in last years USA magasine. We usually don't put a dog on the table until it has "graduated from the box.
With the box the handler is standing right beside the dog giving verbal and physical encouragement as he pats his dog slightly as he fires up. On the table the dog is by himself and has to express himself in strength on his own merit. These are general principles but it gives idea of principles.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:We use it primarily for the young dogs between 10 months and 14 months to strengthen bark, work the dog out of prey, and strengthen the bite on bisquit.


Can you achieve the same w/the 3 sided fence?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

By the dog being in the box he/she is off the ground and it creates a type of stress that the dog works through(though not hard for any dog with decent nerve), it removes flight and prey drive as options and requires dog to confront challenge in a more nerve perspective as opposed to drive perspective if that makes sense. If dog is on the ground there gives more probanility to thrashing,spinning, and behavoirs of this sort that are not desired.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sorry I had double.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

One last thing on the box....I am not promoting the box to anyone on the list as probably many would not be effective in using it if they are in Sch clubs. My point is the evolution of the type of "working" dogs we have today is a reflection of nature,(genetics), and nuture,(training methodology). The prey movement in the breed, unbalanced development of drives in the dog; is an analogy to the black and red show strucure, show dogs being all black and red and of a less than agile structure; as examples of the way specialization has taken over the breed. Until both aspects of this equation is addressed the breed will never assume it place again as "consistently" a great working dog. Things like the box and muzzle training which are very effective tools for developing a "good" protection dog have all but been discarded for the extreme perfection of the routine through things like complete prey training which is easier to manage and less stressful on handlers and trainers to execute. These are reasons why you as sport people can "say" that a prey dog can transition to real protection, but if you ask the practitioners of real dogs(police/military trainers) even in Germany, and they will tell you that the GS of today basically isn't equipped to be "consistently" successful today in this vocation. This should concern true stewards of the breed instead of trying to justify this phenomenon.JMO


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I can see where it can be useful and has it's place in training.. I do believe there was an article in one of the USA magazines..

A while back I watched a trainer use a platform about 4' x 4', 5-6" high, back tie (on short, short line) the dog(s) to the fence and work them that way.. 

I would imagine this platform evolved into table/box training.. but could be wrong..

I can also see where working a dog behind a fence can bring out strong barking/guarding behavior..


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

That is the square table; Gene England uses both the higher square and lower round table for the work. He starts on the high one, then moves to the low one.

Tables were done in Europe and then brought over here. The long one was used in retrieve work for labs.

Dog that was in the top 5 in the World a few years ago was re-trained on the table for the aggression work (saw it done) and placed in the top 5 the following year.

Read the article briefly. It was on table training and was surprised that it was not an interview with Gene.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Yes, Gene England.. That's where this trainer got the idea..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hi Sue,
You are quite right, the box is from Europe and has been very successful in some of the Eastern bloc countries to work dog in defense along with the prey development. Both drives being devloped make for a good green dog that can become a pet, sport, or real dog.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The thing to remember for anyone who is thinking about using a box (or table or anything for that matter), is that it is not a magical box. Just because you make one and stick your dog in it does not mean you will have success. The helper must understand what he is doing. In other words, devices like these are not a replacement to a good helper.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You're right Art, a box is no different than a remote collar, a muzzle, a sleeve, etc., all tools when in the right hands help develop dog to full potential and in wrong hands can set the dog back. Master craftsman must understand and be able to use their tools to polish the product.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

And understand the whole reason behind it and not as part of the exercise.

And not a replacement for a good teaching helper that knows how to work with young and developing dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The people who can train a good sch dog without a good helper and just a box are far beyond my understanding. I have never seen a box used correctly WITHOUT a good helper working the box.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Clifton,

I agree.


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