# Will it get better? Lunging at strangers



## Santi (Dec 27, 2016)

Hi everyone

I have a 6 month old girl called Santi. She's been to puppy training courses, spent a week in a residential training course and we do daily training with her. I've had German Shepherds as a child but lived in the countryside - so didn't get to see some of this behaviour.

Santi is a sweetheart with other dogs BUT she lunges and barks aggressively at everyone on the street if they get too close (within 6 feet approx). We can't let her off the lead in the park anymore because she will chase/nip at/bark at joggers and cyclists.

Has anyone else dealt with this behaviour before? We love her so much but it's incredibly hard - feels like one step forward, two steps back at the moment. We can't take her to cafes, outdoor restaurants, busy parks, busy streets - I'm confident it will get better but also paranoid that this lunging/aggression may crystallise soon.

We're doing a half day training with a guy who's an expert in GSDs soon - but I was wondering if anyone else had these issues? How did you work past them?


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## LBethO (Mar 18, 2017)

If you find a trainer your dog responds to, I'd say follow their guidelines specifically. Yes, it can get better with practice and exposure. Plenty of reactive dogs learn to rely on their owner rather than their own anxieties and impulses. There are some trainers who put out youtube videos that demonstrate some of the training they use to move the dog from being reactive to self calming and or relying on you for their cues. Solid K9 Training has posted many. "Training your dog and you dot com" has very good summary of the theory behind training and tools to use. 

Pretty relaxed looking dog. You know she can PLATZ!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well if your working with a "GSD" expert most likely he will ask you if your walking this dog on a harness?? If you are he will tell you to lose it and show you how to walk your dog properly and that is best done in a distraction free environment first.

You have to show her what you want first (how to walk on a loose leash, how you expect her to behave) before you can correct her for not doing it. Avoiding the Park right now ... would be helpful ... you already know she can't handle that level of distraction. All your doing is reinforcing the bad behaviour and the more a dog practices a bad behaviour ... the better at it they become. A few links may be helpful. First this one. : 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And the walk thing ... it needs to be a proper structured walk, if you can get that alone done first ... everything else will become easier, and that looks like this. :





And yes Jeff uses a "Prong" that maybe a good choice for you also?? I ... don't know but listen to what Jeff says. The first video clip in the gsd link is "Doggy Dan."And he uses a flat leash and regular collar ... that is how I started, and these days I use a Slip Lead Leash. Most likely if your working with a trainer anyway ... they will likely suggest a "Prong" and show you how to use one properly.

And they may or may not tell you about .... "The Place Command" and "Sit on the Dog???" Those help train calmness into a dog. Those things can be found here.:
Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

But "proper structured walks" and doing "Sit on the Dog" alone ... will get you a well behaved dog. All the leash reactivity crap will then be easier to solve with a "slight tug sideways." But you have to lay the foundation first. Welcome aboard and ask questions.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes I know exactly what you are dealing with. I have an almost 6 yr old female and a 11 month old male who are leash reactive. I am dealing differently with the male than I did with the female. I really didn't know much about training 6 yrs ago beyond "sit", "paw", etc. I have learned a lot since then and am trying to prevent some of the mistakes I made then. 

I think first you have to decide what kind of training you are comfortable with. Then stick with it.
With my girl, I was all over the place. She is better now, but a lot has to do with her getting older I think. 

My boy started being a jerk on the leash to not only people, but to dogs, bikes, kids....just about everything. He has come a looooooong way and now is fine with people. Kids can still get him going but I see improvements all the time. Dog reactivity is also improving. Just find that I need to be consistent and have a lot of patience. In my case, it is not the dog that is/was the issue. It was me! I needed to be trained...lol. Actually I still like to have someone observe how I handle things. 

I think if you find a trainer that you like, that uses methods you agree with, that is probably the best way to go.


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## HelloWorld314 (Apr 10, 2017)

This is exactly what my 6 months old does! And my trainer calls it fear aggression though I doubt it. She is now much better after I keep feeding her treats whenever someone walks pass us before she starts reacting, but she still chases/barks/nips at children/skateboards in dog parks and I can't trust her off lead as well.

An additional "feature" of mine is that she will also do this (barking/nipping/just being annoying) to other dogs who don't play chase with her and she is aggressive to other dogs who beg me for treats. I don't think my dog is protective of me...she is protective of her treats in my pocket!


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## Santi (Dec 27, 2016)

Thank you everyone! Good to know this is sort-of common. Part of me hopes she will grow out of most of it, but I'm worried that this isn't just a phase...
@HelloWorld314 - Oh dear! Santi's redeeming "feature" is that she is fairly indifferent to other dogs  We use exactly the same method as you: if we see someone approaching, I make her sit, make eye contact with me and she gets a treat. 99% of the time it works and there's no lunging. But a trainer told me this isn't a good habit, because the dog doesn't actually get used to people walking past - it doesn't really deal with the situation because you're distracting it. (Hey, there's a person, he's not going to hurt me). I don't know a better way to handle this on a busy London street, though!


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

The way my dog acts on leash is different than off leash. He never pulls or lunges but he wants to smell and meet every dog he sees, so if he is on leash this frustrates him so he barks. Simple leash corrections fix this, but people assume he is being aggressive when really he just gets frustrated when there is a barrier between him and another dog.

Start small and at a distance, correct when she is getting too focused on a person, then gradually get closer until she gets some impulse control and focus on you. This will take awhile, but it's the method I would use.


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

My girl was the same way at that age. I use a prong. When passing people I would give a correction and tell her no and keep going! Took some time but it did work! She now walks in a perfect heel and I can pass a whole lot of people without a problem. What might also help is take the dog on slow day (mon-fri) to a store target, walmart ect and stand at a distance from the door, let the dog watch people come in and out, also putting in a sit position or what have you using treats if you want. Little by little get closer to the door as dog gets comfortable. Try busier days when you think your ready for that. I also did this. Good luck, she will get better! :smile2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Santi said:


> Thank you everyone! Good to know this is sort-of common. Part of me hopes she will grow out of most of it, but I'm worried that this isn't just a phase...


 People that "Hope it gets better" are usually disappointed ... just saying. 



Santi said:


> - Oh dear! Santi's redeeming "feature" is that she is fairly indifferent to other dogs  We use exactly the same method as you: if we see someone approaching, I make her sit, make eye contact with me and she gets a treat. 99% of the time it works and there's no lunging.* But a trainer told me this isn't a good habit, because the dog doesn't actually get used to people walking past - it doesn't really deal with the situation because you're distracting it. (Hey, there's a person, he's not going to hurt me).[*


The part in bold ... exactly! You are "now" training your dog ... to pay attention to people. If I see people, I look at my owner, or I sit and I'll get a treat?? So if I see people ... I need to do something??? 

That is pretty much what JQP does ... and when it fails ... they "hire a trainer." Pro's say JQP, can't tell the difference between H/A and Fear Aggression?? I don't quibble over "details" and just go with "unpredictable around people." 

If one has a dog that actually likes people ... you can do whatever you want! Treats, distraction, focus it makes no difference. The dog likes people and meeting people "is the reward." The dog doesn't care, I did use the treats and people thing with my Boxer and Bandog I quickly observed, that it made no difference ... treat or not treat ... they simply liked people. 

But ... if you have a dog that is "unpredictable" around people??" It is wise to exercise a bit more caution. Especially with treats, I term that as" tricking a dog, into allowing people into his space." The dog can become so focused on the treat ... that he does not actually see the person ... only the "treat." The dog consumes the treat and then ... discovers ... whoa ... where the heck did this guy from??? And could react to this new discovery, quite badly ... with a snap and contact!! Thus you'd have ... bite number one.

I was not willing to take that chance, I instituted a hands off policy with my "Bubble Dog" a dog that needs to be "muzzled" in public for a time to be safe in public. I kept people out of his space and his job was to do nothing! People are not your concern dog ... you do "nothing dog," it worked/works out fine. 



Santi said:


> I don't know a better way to handle this on a busy London street, though!


The fact of the matter is ... that a serious competent trainer ... would not do or advise that! Most likely they could becasue they know how to walk a dog but most ... would not. They would show there dog what they want by finding and training them how to walk properly on a loose leash first ... in a distraction free area first. Once the dog understands ... what he is suppose to do while on leash. Then a slight correction "sideways" if necessary will get them to do that ... "nothing." Dogs default to a known behaviour. That default behaviour is best trained in a distraction free environment. Business Parks on weekends for city dwellers, are usually a good choice.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

My trainer said to us from an early age, feed them (like stuff their faces) every time a person or dog goes past and add in your positive marker for when they are looking at you and not the person/dog. She said any dog who is pulling on their lead to meet people/dogs will eventually get frustrated because they can't get to them and then the frustration turns to aggression. So to prevent this you give them plenty of treats... so then they learn, if I look at my master when a stranger is nearby its a good thing and I get treats. It helps a lot with with my guy, and I can see it go through his head, .. "oooh a dog, lets go say hello, oh wait... I can get a treat if I look at my master" its a split second decision he makes and you need to be quick with the positive marker and a treat.


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## NerdicEclipse (Feb 20, 2017)

Santi said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I have a 6 month old girl called Santi. She's been to puppy training courses, spent a week in a residential training course and we do daily training with her. I've had German Shepherds as a child but lived in the countryside - so didn't get to see some of this behaviour.
> 
> ...


First thing we did was lose the harness because it seemed to encourage the lunging and pulling. It was comfortable for her. Went to a flat buckle collar and she'd basically choke herself to the point she was about to pass out. Went to a martingale fitted high on her neck (almost where you'd place a properly fitting prong collar really) and she immediately stopped pulling after her second or third lunge. She now walks in heel position on her own with slack on the leash (just enough to give a slight "U" shape between she and I). She'll sometimes put tension on the leash, but once it gets tight she slows down and looks to me for guidance. 

As for the people, like others said, hoping it gets better usually brings disappointment. Very few things are "just a phase" and actually require some level of training or practice to work out. They may lessen over time, but they don't just go away. And some just get more severe. We got Minka to look to us by slowing down since she responds to her martingale. So if she acts like she'll lunge, I gently apply tension and she immediately stops doing it and keeps her eye on me. I release tension when the person passes and we go on about our way. But she also is neutral to dogs (doesn't bark or pull towards/away from them) and never has barked at people, but she does always want to sniff them and play. She does however bark, growl and lunge at birds.

Actually our bigger problem right now is that people always want to pet her. She actually has a really hard time going from walking to stopping while people ask about her. That's when she starts to dance around, jump around and whine/yelp. We're fine with people petting her or wanting to greet her, it's good for socialization - so we've been working on her sitting with distractions. Don't want her jumping up on someone and scratching up their arms or knocking them on their butts.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Santi said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I have a 6 month old girl called Santi. She's been to puppy training courses, spent a week in a residential training course and we do daily training with her. I've had German Shepherds as a child but lived in the countryside - so didn't get to see some of this behaviour.
> 
> ...


Hi, did she ever actually get to another person? If so what was her behavior like when actually near another human? I'm asking because she may bite or may just want to be petted. My girl used to do this but it lasted like a few days. She is actually reactive to other dogs now but ignores humans for the most part, unless they approach her, then she just smells their hands and asks for belly rubs. She barks at other dogs sometimes but it comes from her being attacked and pinned as a puppy, the trainer said she may never fully get over it because she has a fear from puppyhood.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What I suggest, is to stop listening to advice from the internet, and wait for the trainer to come and evaluate your dog and start working with you. Try to remember everything he does or says. Then come on here and type it all up. 

At that point, some knowledgeable people will be able to give you a better than average idea on whether the person you found to train with you is a good trainer, and good for you and your dog. 

You need hands on work with someone who can experience your dog. Unfortunately, not all trainers are even passable. And if you haven't dealt with issues like this before, how can you really tell. 

There are some people on here that I would listen to if they said the guy sounds like a rummy, or he's on the right track. Bailiff, Dave Winners, Carmen could probably give you good advice on this. Unfortunately, I am not putting myself out there on this. My dogs tend to be pretty easy, and I don't want to give you bad advice. 

Also, please do not follow what people do on u-tubes. Frankly, I think dog trainers who are gifted, act instinctively, and then they will verbalize what they just did and why. They will do something totally different to an independent butt-head of a dog, than they will to a fearful dog lacking in confidence -- and yes the behavior displayed could be very similar. 

It sounds like your dog is on the side of fear-aggression, the barking and lunging at people is usually a lack of confidence trying to get everyone to stay away. She is not protecting you, she is protecting herself, because she doesn't have confidence yet that you will protect her. So, taking her down a peg, like you might with your independent-butthead dog, is not what you want to do, it will just increase her fear, possibly remove the indicators she gives to let you know she is uncomfortable, and in the end she will probably be forced to bite. 

At the same time positive training, good positive training, might work with your dog, but if it is permissive at all, you will be in a world of hurt. I want to say that you want a balanced approach, someone who will train and build confidence with positive methods, away from distractions, and as you and she build your skills, skills in timing, in rewarding, in praising the right behaviors, the distraction are added in slowly, and you will be able to say LEAVE IT, or WATCH ME, and the dog will know these commands, and will be able to comply with them, with the newly built trust in you as a leader/trainer. 

Now, where the balanced approach comes in. A dog, kind of like children, are not damaged by being an appropriate correction at the right moment. In fact it solidifies boundaries, and the dog or kid can be more relaxed, happy even, knowing how far they cannot go. The dog doesn't really think this way. But a proper correction at the right time is effective communication. If the dog understands praise when he does the right thing, he can understand a correction when he does the wrong thing, and he learns rapidly. I don't like the term "balanced" for this, because it shouldn't be balanced at all. Most of your training, especially in the beginning should be fun, encouraging, with plenty of praise -- set her up to succeed and praise her for it. There is a place for corrections, but it shouldn't be 50%. No way. No where near there. 

Lastly, there are trainers that want for you to work within your dog's thresholds, pumping treats into the dog, whenever the dog is not beginning a reaction. This sort of training/conditioning may work, it takes a long time, and personally, I think it is less humane than giving a dog an appropriate correction and moving on -- not wallowing in a negative experience, not allowing the behavior to set. 

If your dog connects with a human, then you need to stop, get your dog under control, apologize and take whatever action, etc. If the dog does not connect, but just barks or lunges, don't apologize profusely -- keeping the dog in that situation. It may sound rude. A quick "sorry about that" as you are getting your dog out of the situation is enough if anything. You might have to do some soul-searching about what is rude and what is not. Getting in front of your dog, or telling some little kid to STOP! is not rude it is protecting the kid and your dog. 

So let us know how that first visit goes, and we'll all know better whether or not the person you found is going to get you on a better track with your dog, or maybe find someone else.

Good luck. She's a puppy, and I think this can be fixed. Hopefully, we can avoid some of the common pit-falls.


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