# HELP! Need urgent advice from GA residents!



## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Feel free to move this thread if it's in the wrong place.

This is not about a GSD but about a 12 month old Pit Bull that my friend's family has. The friend is a college buddy of mine who moved the the Jasper, GA area a couple years ago. Her younger sister "J" also lives with the family and has over the passed year added 4 dogs to an already large pack. (two parents, my friend, her sister, and originally 3 dogs and 2 cats). 

The family is under extreme stress from the pit bull as it has been attacking the other animals and now, the people. No one has been severely injured and none of the attacks have been reported. "J" has no papers for him as he was picked up from what very, very loosely can be described as a BYB of the lowest sorts. She goes out and leaves the dog with the family. The dog has had no training and has had no shots even!

I want to know if it's possible / lawful for the parents (who own the home) to surrender the dog to a shelter or rescue. He is young, with no outlet for his energy and no boundaries. I feel like he needs help before he harms someone badly. I feel the family is in danger of physical injury, lawsuits, etc. and this boy doesn't stand a chance unless someone brings him up properly. 

Anyone have any advice for my friend? Know of any local rescues? I am not familair with GA laws and the family is torn between keeping the dog since it's the daughters but it's really getting out of hand.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If they are concerned about legality, then they should send the "owner" a certified letter requesting her to claim her abandoned dog. When I worked with vet clinics, I think we gave people 2 weeks.

Chances are VERY high that any owner turn-in pitbull will be euthanized at a Georgia shelter. That may be for the best, or not.... just something to be aware of.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

gagsd said:


> If they are concerned about legality, then they should send the "owner" a certified letter requesting her to claim her abandoned dog. When I worked with vet clinics, I think we gave people 2 weeks.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I am confused about this. The owner of the dog is the 21 year old daughter who is living in the house with the family. But the family is being terrorized by her dog. She knows this, doesn't care, goes out and drinks and leaves the pit home with the family. They want to make her get rid of the dog before it harms someone but aren't sure if it's lawful to do so. She wont take responsibility for him, train him, or even get his shots.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Their house, their rules. If my child were that disrespectful, she'd be gone, and her little dog, too!!!!
They have every right to dispose of the dog. Let's see her take them to court if she's kicked out and has to start paying rent.

Annette


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If the owner is not caring for the dog, and the dog is on someone's property, the "someone" needs the dog declared abandoned.

I am with Annette-- kick the kid out, and her little doggy too.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

I have to agree with Bocron, and to be honest I am baffled that they need help handling this situation. They can't tell their daughter that the situation is unacceptable and that they need the dog out of the house- period? 
I would tell Princess she has 2 options:
1- Find a home/rescue for the dog (and set a time limit)
2- Find another home to move into with the dog.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Haha I agree with you all - I'd kick her out!! But I think they are more looking for a rescue or shelter to take him and I was wondering if anyone knew of anything local they could recommend.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Pickens Animal Rescue

Jasper County Animal Control


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Thanks all! I hope they take action soon so that my friend and her family can stay safe.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Honestly if the family doesn't feel safe around the dog, why would a rescue take it? We are over-run with pits in Georgia and most in shelters are euthanized even with perfect behavior/temperament. Sadly if she is not willing to care for the dog I doubt anyone else will be either.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

AddieGirl said:


> Honestly if the family doesn't feel safe around the dog, why would a rescue take it? We are over-run with pits in Georgia and most in shelters are euthanized even with perfect behavior/temperament. Sadly if she is not willing to care for the dog I doubt anyone else will be either.


 
I know. I think its just a shame he is so young and he could taught easily by someone who cares. She really did him a disservice by taking him in and not caring for him; it will eventually cost him his life because they can't handle him forever. He isn't vicious, just a puppy struggling to find his place in a very large pack and he has nowhere to channel his energy. They don't even walk him. 

I am also worried about his medical status because he has never been to a vet or had a shot. I know plenty of people don't give boosters to their dogs and that doesn't bother me but shouldn't he at least get checked for HW? Are any vaccines required by law in GA, rabies at least? Would the family get in trouble by housing an unvaccinated dog? I live in Michigan and told my friend I would find out all I can for her since I am an active member of this forum and know there are many people here with great expertise.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Rabies is required by law. Just like in any state, that is the onlylegally required vaccination.

I cannot imagine an owner turn-in pit with behavior issues will be kept for placement at any shelter in this area.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

how can it be said the dog/puppy could become a good dog with training when it is already biting people? A pit bull that is biting other dogs and family members whether reported or not should not be adopted out to someone else.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> how can it be said the dog/puppy could become a good dog with training when it is already biting people? A pit bull that is biting other dogs and family members whether reported or not should not be adopted out to someone else.


Well I'm sorry. I am in no position to say that the dog is vicious and neither are you; I was going on what my friend told me. She told me he snapped at her mother once and plays rough with the other dogs. He is an understimulated pit bull puppy not a maneater; you're saying that at 1 year old he is hopeless? 
I am not here to argue about what he is, I was just hoping he had a chance. Sorry you couldn't have been as optimistic as I was. I can do nothing in this situation and I was asking for recommendations on a shelter. I now know that her resources for help for this dog are extremely limited. I have passed this along to her.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The family is under extreme stress from the pit bull as it has been attacking the other animals and now, the people. No one has been severely injured and none of the attacks have been reported.
Your first post stated the above comments. Now you are saying" She told me he snapped at her mother once and plays rough with the other dogs 
These two comments completely contradict themselves.So which is it? If the first comment is correct your friend has a dog that could be considered dangerous. If its the second comment, then it sounds like a problem puppy that has not BIT anyone and needs training and exercise. Two completely different scenerios.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You should send a PM to Red Crown on this board - she posted in the pitbull killing the pregnant owner thread. She understands pb temperament.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

A little pit predijuce showing here. Doesn't really sound like the pit is the problem sounds like the kid is.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

In a state with such a very high euthanasia rate, and such a high percentage being pit- type dogs.... A dog such as described has about a zero percent chance unless sent to a rehabber; whether individual or a rescue.
Not "pit prejudice" but, IMO, reality.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

The "reality" is breed predjudice! Esp. toward pitties but also GSD's, Rotties and others.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

No rescue, in my area, will touch a dog with issues. Thee are a million pits to choose from. The resources are, in general, put toward easily adoptable dogs.
Cute breeds, healthy dogs, good/easy temperament.


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## RedCrown (Feb 23, 2005)

To the OP, and others that think this is not a breed issue:

I understand your frustration that a grossly inadequately trained dog needs to "channel his energy" or else face possible euthanasia. This is a sad situation for any breed. 

However, what you need to understand is that pit bulls MUST be kept at a different (higher!) standard of genetic temperament than many other breeds! It IS genetically correct that the dog plays rough with other dogs. It is NOT correct if he "snaps" at people. ANY tendency towards human aggression, EVEN in a "warning snap" is _completely incorrect and dangerous!_ It is not incorrect that other breeds may react to a situation with aggression towards humans, but not for the pit bull. Even serious dogfighters don't allow aggressive tendencies in their yards- when they separate dogs from a fight, they don't like getting bit... this is the pit bull's history- like it or not, aggression towards humans is a genetic flaw for the breed and can't be "trained out." 

The family must be able to recognize aggressive behavior tendencies towards themselves, or else we probably wouldn't be having this conversations. If the family feels scared with that many other dogs running around, then there must be a valid reason. The dog needs to be euthanized- not only to keep the family safe, but to prevent further damage to the breed's reputation, and to prevent further trauma to the already behaviorally neglected dog. 

I would not be concerned about the legality of the situation. A 21 year old girl isn't going to take her family to court, and if they (as they should!) report the dog as dangerous, the authorities will take it away and euthanize it, no matter who legally owns the dog. It should humanely be put to sleep by a veterinarian, but sadly, it sounds like this won't happen.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RedCrown said:


> To the OP, and others that think this is not a breed issue: ...........
> 
> However, what you need to understand is that* pit bulls MUST be kept at a different (higher!) standard of genetic temperament than many other breeds!* It IS genetically correct that the dog plays rough with other dogs. *It is NOT correct if he "snaps" at people.* ANY tendency towards human aggression, EVEN in a "warning snap" is _completely incorrect and dangerous!_ *It is not incorrect that other breeds may react to a situation with aggression towards humans, but not for the pit bull.* Even serious dogfighters don't allow aggressive tendencies in their yards- when they separate dogs from a fight, they don't like getting bit... this is the pit bull's history- like it or not, aggression towards humans is a genetic flaw for the breed and can't be "trained out."
> 
> ...


Red crown,

Would you happen to know just which gene(s) are involved in a pits "genetic" tendency to aggression towards humans? 

You know, the ones that you reference in your post and that you seem convinced are a valid cause to recommend that a dog that you have never seen should "*humanely be put to sleep by a veterinarian"?*

Would you be saying that pits have different genes than any other dog breeds, or are you suggesting that other breeds also have some specimins that are genetically disposed to aggression toward humans? If so, which breeds would these be? Are GSD's among them would you say?

BTW, what exactly did the pit in question do? Do you really know what terrible thing that the dog do - did he kill one of the other dogs, send one to the vet for extensive surgery, send a family member to the ER with multiple bites, ?????? 

He must have done *something* *terrible like these* to cause you to say that he should be euthanized immediately, or did I just miss something?

Finally, what breed of dog are you referring to as a pit bull? You are aware, I assume, that there are a number of breeds sometimes referred to as pit bulls? 

I also have a couple of friends with American Staffordshire Terriers who get mighty upset if their pure bred dogs are referred to as Pit Bulls.


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## Tank_N_Moose (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't think this dog is vicious or a man eater by any means. He needs to have more boundaries set and possibly needs to be crate/rotated. A lot of dogs snap and push their limits especially at young ages. It's up to the care takers to show him that it won't be tolerated. They are a dog just like any other. Mine has snapped and he has had his reasons for it. No reason to say this dog didn't.

Pits in general (not always, there are a good many that live with other dogs with no issues) are one dog types. They don't like living with other dogs and that's nothing against them. That's how they were bred just like many Husky owners will tell you not to get a cat or other small furry creature while owning a Husky because it's in their genetics to kill it. Doesn't make the dog bad just means the family needs to take more precautions. Maybe look into more intense training and getting him his CGC. Sending him to a shelter is pretty much giving him a death sentence...


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Thanks for all your help, everyone. Like you all, I don't have a lot of hope for this dog because I don't think anyone is going to really take responsibility for his care. I understand my friend's limited resources but I also told her that the need to do something about it. It's become clear to me that the family does not understand the needs or behavior of the dog, and are unwilling to help him become a balanced member of the household. 

This is a dangerous situation for any dog, and I do believe that the breed characteristics of the pit bull do not lend anything positive to this issue. Don't we all wish we could change the way some people treat their dogs? :crazy: I can only hope that no one gets seriously injured as a result of their inaction. 

Thanks again.


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> The family is under extreme stress from the pit bull as it has been attacking the other animals and now, the people. No one has been severely injured and none of the attacks have been reported.
> Your first post stated the above comments. Now you are saying" She told me he snapped at her mother once and plays rough with the other dogs
> These two comments completely contradict themselves.So which is it? If the first comment is correct your friend has a dog that could be considered dangerous. If its the second comment, then it sounds like a problem puppy that has not BIT anyone and needs training and exercise. Two completely different scenerios.


Yes I understand. Unfortunately getting nipped on the hand looks like "attacking" to a group of dense and uneducated dog owners, and so it has been up to me to weed out the unbiased facts in this story *over time*; herein lies your confusion I'm afraid. From what I understand, the puppy has never injured anyone out of posessiveness or aggression, merely out of energy and lack of training. The has only bit a human once, on accident. The dogs have been injured because they are 15lbs, elderly, and the dog has no boundaries. 
At this point, however, it doesn't really matter. You're right, the dog has already developed bad behaviors and he doesn't have much hope. No need to quibble here.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Kind of on topic, but we had some family friends contact us recently. Their old mix breed had died over the summer and they are ready to think about getting a new dog and are seriously considering a GSD. Now this is a family that is totally run and dominated by the one and only son. The mother calls another friend in tears all the time over his behavior and attitude, blah blah blah. 
DH and I decided we would urge them toward another breed(they will not create boundaries for the son and if the mother tries the son calls the dad to complain and the dad will actually take the son's side!).
Hoping we can curtail this one before it turns into a situation like the OP's story here.
Annette


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## RedCrown (Feb 23, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Red crown,
> 
> Would you happen to know just which gene(s) are involved in a pits "genetic" tendency to aggression towards humans?
> 
> ...


Apparently I've ruffled some feathers... But I stand by my statement regarding correct breed temperament. Perhaps I used incorrect genealogical terminology, however it is a no-brainer that some dogs were selectively bred over generations for selected characteristics and other, undesirable characteristics were bred out. This is how dog breeds are created... 

And yes, I do think that GSDs have been selectively bred to aggress on humans in specific circumstances. Hence, police dogs, war dogs, etc.. This is expected, and the behavior can be modified by training if the dog displays it inappropriately. If my GSD Friday were to show any aggressive tendencies towards people, it is completely acceptable. I know that if a complete stranger barged into my house and came straight over to her, she would likely bite, and I have no problem with this. Part of the reason I purchased a GSD was to have a guardian-type dog in my house. If the thought even crossed my two APBTs minds- there would be a massive problem. It has NEVER been in the APBT's breed history to display aggressive behavior towards humans. 

That being said, with some of the following posts it sounds more like it is young-dog with a hard mouth in play. Not good, but doesn't sound truly aggressive.

I believe all bully-type breeds need to be held to this same standard in order to preserve the longevity of the breed(s). APBT, AST- same lineage.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Put aside that its a pit bull, it doesn't show tendencies that shelters like. Shelters/rescues are rarely in the business of rehabbing dogs and this dog will have to go through a lot of training to get it "adoptable." The saddest part is that this dog was doomed from day one. If it really came from the breeder it did, it needed to be pulled out by a much more responsible owner. This is definately not the correct situation for this dog and genetics have nothing to do with it.

I second that there aren't any legal issues. In all techincality she is still considered a dependent of the parent since she is living at home, and age has nothing to do with it. This is more a family issue then anything, they're more afraid of their daughter suing them than they are of hurting her feelings by telling her how they feel about the dog. This seems to be a situation that can easily be solved by a conversation (with some hurt feelings) but for some reason the family doesn't want to go there (and I don't care why).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RedCrown said:


> Apparently I've ruffled some feathers... But I stand by my statement regarding correct breed temperament. Perhaps I used incorrect genealogical terminology, however it is a no-brainer that some dogs were selectively bred over generations for selected characteristics and other, undesirable characteristics were bred out. This is how dog breeds are created...
> 
> And yes, I do think that GSDs have been selectively bred to aggress on humans in *specific circumstances. *
> *What cirumstances do you have in mind? And esp. what breeders are selecting and breeding GSD's to be human aggressive (as opposed to training them to do a particular job under command). *Hence, police dogs, war dogs, etc.. This is expected, and the behavior can be modified by training if the dog displays it inappropriately. If my GSD Friday were to show any aggressive tendencies towards people, *it is completely acceptable.* *Are you serious? How about walking her down the street and she bites a kid in the face who walks by your dog - acceptable? Sounds like that is ok cause she just "showed aggressive tendencies" toward the child.*
> I know that if a complete stranger barged into my house and came straight over to her, she would likely bite, and I have no problem with this. Part of the reason I purchased a GSD was to have a guardian-type dog in my house. If the thought even crossed my two APBTs minds- there would be a massive problem. It has NEVER been in the APBT's breed history to display aggressive behavior towards humans. That being said, with some of the following posts it sounds more like it is young-dog with a hard mouth in play. Not good, but doesn't sound truly aggressive.I believe all bully-type breeds need to be held to this same standard in order to preserve the longevity of the breed(s). APBT, AST- same lineage.


So what genes are involved in the pit bull that you so generally assigned to their "built in" tendency?

Or have you changed your mind?

BTW, regarding human aggression - what breeds did you say are bred for it? GSD's? Rotties? Which breeds are you suggesting are selected and bred to be aggressive to humans?


BTW2 dare you aware of the pit bull work in ScH?
Official Pit Bull Site of Diane Jessup

Look here if not! Might learn something, maybe.


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## RedCrown (Feb 23, 2005)

You are preaching to the choir, mate. I am intimately acquainted with Diane Jessup... I have trained with her, worked with her, and bred my dog to her dog Dirk and thus have my male APBT Bronco. :rolleyes2:

Diane and I don't see eye to eye on some issues, but what we do share is a no-tolerance policy on pit-bull human aggression. Take it to the bank. We have worked our dogs together on the schuzhund field, and I have done FR with my APBT- the mindset of an APBT and a GSD doing bite sports are much, much different, and thus the training methods are different. If either my dog or Diane's dogs take the same attitude towards bitesports as a GSD, we would have a serious problem. 

You aren't getting the point, and are making sweeping generalizations. "Walking my GSD down the street and biting a kid in the face" is obnoxiously obviously, NOT an acceptable circumstance of aggression- but being wary of strangers in her own territory is, engaging a human on the schutzhund field is. Aggression doesn't have to be outrageous or viscious, I am specifically talking about the willingness to engage with a human.

I can't debate with someone who can't understand basic principles of dog breeding, behavior and canine-aggression. I will not derail this thread further.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RedCrown said:


> You are preaching to the choir, *mate*. *Not your mate, bud!*
> I am intimately acquainted with Diane Jessup... I have trained with her, worked with her, and bred my dog to her dog Dirk and thus have my male APBT Bronco. :rolleyes2: *And that is wonderful for you.*
> 
> Diane and I don't see eye to eye on some issues, but what we do share is a no-tolerance policy on pit-bull human aggression. Take it to the bank. We have worked our dogs together on the schuzhund field, and I have done FR with my APBT- *the mindset of an APBT and a GSD doing bite sports are much, much different*, *(Think you might be able to explain this statment or want to just ignore any questions again?)* and thus the training methods are different. If either my dog or Diane's dogs take the same attitude towards bitesports as a GSD, we would have a serious problem. *And what "Attitude" might that be? And why would you have a "serious" problem? Could you explain this or ....?*
> ...


One last question - just out of idle curiosity - do you or have you ever, own(ed) a GSD?

Have a nice day.


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## RedCrown (Feb 23, 2005)

If you actually spent as much time reading my posts as you do getting riled up, you would have clearly seen that I do explain myself, and I do own a GSD.

Reference the "pregnant pit bull owner killed by dog thread" in current events for explanation on bull breeds doing bitework.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RedCrown said:


> If you actually spent as much time reading my posts as you do getting riled up, you would have clearly seen that I do explain myself, and I do own a GSD.
> 
> Reference the "pregnant pit bull owner killed by dog thread" in current events for explanation on bull breeds doing bitework.


Heh! Heh!

You mean that if you train a pit bull type dog in bite work, then he/she will attack your family?

I guess all the pitties that I have seen and petted, which include at least one who does ScH are to be feared and avoided! Thanks for the warning.

And with GSD's, I once met the male GSD who went top protection dog at the German Sieger show one year; would you say that I was taking my life in my hands when I was "fighting" with him?

You know, I also once knew a Great Dane who was a Police K9 and did PP work as well as ScH - guess I was real lucky when I was wrestling with him as well. He was certainly well trained in real bite work.

Or is it just pit bulls that you are convinced should not do bitework? (for whatever reason, like maybe they can't control themselves once they start to bite?).

If a dog is sound temperamentally and trained properly, any dog, including the numerous real police dogs that live at home with their handlers, is more trustworthy than a great many other dogs. Course these are owned/handled by folks who DO care if their dogs "show human aggression".

red, you have a nice day and let's end this ridiculous topic.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

That isn't what RedCrown was saying. If you bothered to read the posts you were referred to, you would see that. But - you won't.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If everyone responded to what other people have actually POSTED and not to what they assumed the person was saying (but did not actually say), or what they extrapolated from the post (which was not explicitly stated), or a conclusion they jumped to (that's not supported by what was posted), we'd have much more civilized and productive debates and fewer pointless arguments. Just sayin......


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am curious about the subject, so guess I will drop over to the other thread.

Cassidy's Mom- nice post
just sayin'


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Hey Debbie....Can you say that again fast?? LOL! Having read RedCrown's other posts, I personally found hem very helpful. Unlike some others, I do not really know that much about pit bulls. "Erika" is obviously passionate about the breed and has lots of pit bull experience. That is why I think the posts should be read - if people are really open to learning about pit bulls. JMO,


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> That isn't what RedCrown was saying. If you bothered to read the posts you were referred to, you would see that. But - you won't.


Waste of time, at any rate. What do you say that he said? 

Maybe you can explain it better so that I can really understand what he said about pit bulls having some kind of "genetic flaw" about human aggression? Do *YOU* know if only pit bulls have this "genetic flaw" or do some other breeds also have it? Would a pit bull mix also have it or is it a recessive gene? 

I would truly appreciate your answering the questions about this pit bull "genetic flaw" that evidently red either cannot or would not answer after he made such a point of it in an earlier post.


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