# Box jumping



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Built (and painted) two more bar jumps so that we could do box jump drills. They seem fun, and there's a lot of places to practice crosses. You can also see my wing prototypes... We aren't really running any drills here- just playing around. But we _can_ run drills if we want to now! Yeah!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Nice job on the DIY agility stuff! Very impressive 

Pimq looks like she's coming along nicely in her training. I notice her speed is pretty good to start but she sometimes gets a bit distracted. You may want to consider rewarding more often at first to keep the speed up. Also throwing the reward (if she doesn't like toys, stuff a Kong and throw that for her) can help with keeping her focused ahead and can build speed on the turns.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Great idea! That's advice I will gladly implement. For this particular video- she wasn't in "agility" or even "obedience" mode at all. She was just hanging out in the backyard all day while I was working in the garage. I literally setup the camera and then did those two or three runs. She definitely has a switch, and I need to get her in that "mode" for her to really focus and do well. Like I said, this was more just to get a video of the new equipment and to have a little fun. But absolutely good advice!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Loved your jump setup and the video. The comments really add to the fun for me as an avid viewer! :thumbup:


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Nice job! Now you have enough jumps to do the double box, star box and the single box. I can't wait to see more video of Pimg and you practicing. oke:


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Doing just a few jumps and then break to reward (play, praise ,food) can speed a dog up and create more drive. Throwing a toy or food to encourage a dog to move out helps too. I've noticed with my one guy if the jumps are set too low for him he dosn't feel he has to drive to the next jump, he gets lazy. You have to know your dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I just watched your update on building the jumps on the other thread and figured out what all those dark colored 'H's on your ground were from!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

TaraM1285 said:


> Nice job! Now you have enough jumps to do the double box, star box and the single box. I can't wait to see more video of Pimg and you practicing. oke:


Practically insightful with the poke there Kristin! I've had so much fun building agility equipment recently (I LOVE building things!) that we have done very little actual practice. I need to pick that back up for sure. At least now I have no excuse!



MaggieRoseLee said:


> I just watched your update on building the jumps on the other thread and figured out what all those dark colored 'H's on your ground were from!


Ha! I thought about explaining that in the video and then said forget it. As you can see- I have very little grass anyway- so I just spray painted them directly on the ground haha! I'll go out there with a rake and mix in the blue dirt. :toasting: :crazy:


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wildo said:


> Great idea! That's advice I will gladly implement. For this particular video- she wasn't in "agility" or even "obedience" mode at all. She was just hanging out in the backyard all day while I was working in the garage. I literally setup the camera and then did those two or three runs. She definitely has a switch, and I need to get her in that "mode" for her to really focus and do well. Like I said, this was more just to get a video of the new equipment and to have a little fun. But absolutely good advice!


 I hesitated to say anything because I know you said you were just playing around. But my inner agility instructor wouldn't keep quiet 

She really is coming along nicely though. I definitely see progress in the videos you post of her


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Kristin said we should practice more. She's right... Here's a video of me trying to work through two problem areas:

1) If the dog is coming at a fast speed and you need to make a quite turn (90* or more) it seemed logical to do some kind of a mix between a body block and a front cross. I wasn't actually doing a front cross, but I think my arms were. In the end, I think I realized all that mumbo-jumbo wasn't needed. I could just lead her by ensuring my body was pointing in the proper direction.

2) After a rear cross I have a hard time controlling her. In this situation, we had a pretty hard transition between two other jumps in order to get to the next. Pimg always wanted to take an improper jump here. I _think_ the solution is to purposefully slow her down in order to regain her focus on me. Maybe. That seemed to work anyway...


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hey now! I only said I wanted to see more video of you practicing! 

I hope you don't mind my novice comments on the handling issues you pointed out.

#1 - Good job lining her up with jump 2, that is exactly what I would have done. I may have had her a bit farther over (so she sliced jump 1 more), but it's difficult to tell from the video exactly where she was. I think you could probably have led out a bit farther and be opposite the jump and in line with the 2nd to give her even more information. She has a great sit-stay so you would be able to do that. Great job!

#2 - I think I would have chosen a front cross here instead of the rear. You have 2 front cross options the way I see it. The first is to front cross the 3 jump so that you're in the middle of the 3/4/6/8 box. That way you have her on your right before you even start the 4-5-6 sequence. I think that might be more difficult though. My second thought was to front cross the landing side of the 4 jump. You can also continue to use the rear cross, but I think you want to send her over with your left hand (instead of switching to your right) and then cross behind her and switch to your right. 

I don't think you need to slow her down to grab her between the 5 and 8 jumps. Based on your body language, I thought she was correct in going over the 8 jump. I think YOU should have slowed down between the 5 and 8, turned your shoulders toward her to pull her through the two jumps (like handling a threadle), and don't slow your dog down!  

Great job with that!! I love how well she reads you. You guys are really doing well.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Comments inline in red.



TaraM1285 said:


> Hey now! I only said I wanted to see more video of you practicing!
> Ha! I know- just messing...
> 
> 
> ...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I know it's VITAL for me to give Bretta as much info as early as possible! And how I line her up at the start can be key!

If I line her up staight to a jump so she's looking at her first jump and then the next one in front is WRONG (like if I set her up facing #1 and #4) I'm going to have a heck of a time turning her for #2 and that bar will probably go down.

If, instead, I set her way off to the side of bar #1 so is looking at #1 and #2 (so #5 isn't in the picture at all) she knows when I lead out that it's 1 - 2 and that off course #5 isn't ever in that visual picture. 

So this wouldn't be as good for us as...


This setup is better....


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yep MRL- I think that's what Kristin meant when she said to set them up to "slice" the jump. I'm totally with you guys on this, I didn't consider it. When setting up for the first obstacle, are you allowed to position the dog wherever you want as long as you don't cross a "starting plane"? I guess I mean- there isn't some kind of small "start box" is there?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

As far as your 'problem' between 5 and 6... .I LOVE YOUR DOG! Cause she's being absolutely 'honest' and reading your run/line perfectly!

Don't watch yourself, watch her when you are doing the rear crosses. The jumps she's taking (though not what you want) is EXACTLY what you are cueing by putting in the rear cross where you are. It's EXACTLY what you'd do if you wanted her to do 4/5/8/6 . That's the rear that's perfect for that location.

So you can't rear there UNLESS you have an awesome 'out' command so she won't take 8 but instead know to get the heck away from you and not take the obstacle that's inbetween (which usually is correct). 

I personally would do a Front Cross between 3 and 4. This means you still need a bit of distance work to 'send' your dog out and around 3 so you can do your front cross dance and NOT be in her way as she's landing going to #4. Then I'd have her on my right over 4 and 5 AND I'd go on the outside of the jumps to curl her around and over jump #6.

The hardest part of this would be the front cross (and this is STILL an issue with Bretta and I). Because to do it well Bretta has to get out and away from me to take #3 while I'm no longer going with her and instead having to support her going away while I'm having to get to my position to show her the front (pretty much where the red and blue lines cross on my map below). We HAVE to be ahead of our dogs path to get the front cross in at the right time/place. If I'm in Bretta's way, or blocking her so she has to slam to a stop or slow cause I'm in her way, I'm either late with the cross or doing it in the wrong place.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> Yep MRL- I think that's what Kristin meant when she said to set them up to "slice" the jump. I'm totally with you guys on this, I didn't consider it. When setting up for the first obstacle, are you allowed to position the dog wherever you want as long as you don't cross a "starting plane"? I guess I mean- there isn't some kind of small "start box" is there?


There is no 'start' box! You are right, it's the 'starting plane' that you need to think about, that invisible line straight out from either side of the jump. So as long as the dog is on the right side of the 180 degrees from the jump, you can slice away.

Good way to tell newbies at a trial, they never remember to use the advantage of that darn slice!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

The reason I would want to do the front cross between 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 is to give her more information that you are turning to the left there. With the rear, she doesn't know until she lands the 5 jump that she's turning left so you're getting a big wide turn (except when you slowed her down!), so she's already lined up for the backside of the 8 jump. By doing the front cross, you're already ahead of her on the side you are going and so she knows to collect before she even takes the jump and turn to the left.

Hey MRL, I'm confused by your last figure. The dog is going the opposite direction from how I'm reading the map?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> So you can't rear there UNLESS you have an awesome 'out' command so she won't take 8 but instead know to get the heck away from you and *not take the obstacle that's inbetween *(which usually is correct).


OH! I totally get it now... I think I have confused you guys. I actually put the jump numbers on the entrance side of the jump. So your 5 to 6 isn't exactly correct. However, I get it now that you don't want to put an obstacle between you and the dog! Technically, this wasn't my intention. I can see though that it was very difficult for Pimg to read that I didn't _want_ the obstacle between us (yeah yeah, my fault. I still don't exactly get why though). So until I get how to close or open my shoulders or whatever- I can eliminate this problem by going around the #8 jump myself, like this:


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Re: turning your shoulders (my phone isn't liking quoting your post at the moment)

Watch your video again and see how you turn after jump 5 and run straight toward jump 6? I think you are only watching Pimg from your peripheral vision. Instead of doing this, slow down and turn toward her a little between jump 6 and 8, make eye contact, and with your right arm make a pulling motion through the two jump uprights to bring her back to heel. That's what I mean by pulling her through the jump. 

Caveat that this is just one way to handle this based on my limited experience of what is taught by my instructors.  I'm sure there are other methods that work just as well.

Hope this clears that up a little. If you ever want to look at some tough handling sequences and explanations and diagrams of handling options, check out agilitynerd's blog (he's also te created of the double box sequence generator).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh- I see now what you mean by pulling her in. Thanks for that! I'll have to give both methods a shot after work today. Thanks!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Sorry I misread your course map!

Other thing I'd like to add is make sure you are starting with the more simple box work, then building up to the harder stuff. Most of your foundational skills are very good and your dog is understanding. 

You want to keep building a good foundation AND understanding for your dog, so pushing too far too fast and causing confusion starts getting my dogs to shut down and start refusing jumps (or going off to sniff...). So have a plan, do it once.

If 'the plan' doesn't work, think about what happened, and if you still think it's a good plan, try again. Then if it again fails................ *STOP.*

I never have my dog do it 'wrong' a third time. Cause if she does, CLEARLY she isn't getting it and it's my fault. So I need to radically change 'the plan' to make it clear. 

One thing that is a huge help (and I can't state this enough), if my ISSUE on the course is jump 5,6,7................... then I don't finish the course, then go all the way back to #1 to fix it.

Instead, I STOP as soon after the oops as I see it, then go back and JUST FIX WHERE IT FELL APART! That way it's clearer to my dog WHERE we need to think more. It's also clearer to the dog that 1,2,3, 4 was ok....... 

You ever had a chance to look at this site? AgilityNerd I love him! Great information and videos. 

His current front page has a philosophy that I am also now finding more and more true (and what is my challenge  ):



> Handling is a language for communicating with your dog on course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
He even has a bunch of stuff about boxwork.... http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/courses/steve/JumpBoxDrillGenerator.html

http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/courses/steve/BoxDrills.html

http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/courses/steve/DoubleBoxSequences.html

http://agilitynerd.com/blog/agility/courses/steve/OneJumpDrills.html


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I just found that site recently. I haven't really had a chance to read through the blog yet- I'll definitely check it out. One issue I'm having is calming the desire to move forward. I keep telling myself that I am in no hurry to trial, but I am not sure my actions are showing that. I mean honestly- we only started working on agility 9 weeks ago. Are we really ready for double boxes- I truly don't know. Probably not. Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything though...

There is SO MUCH involved in agility that it is hard to break down foundations from beginner to intermediate, etc, etc. Pimg seems to truly love sequencing, and she gets SO BORED doing single jump work. I _*think*_ it makes sense to want to move towards more sequencing- but what do I know. 

[EDIT]- I don't think my point was clear here. Point is- it seemed like we should be working as much sequencing as possible since she is enjoying it. Maybe, though, 8 jumps is too much. Perhaps we should tone it down to 3 or 4...

Not to start a whole new topic, but this is truly an area that I'm having a breakdown with my agility instructor. You guys are all aware of my other thread about frustrations. Although she's offered the "more focused dogs" class, it hasn't come to fruition. And although I asked _three weeks ago_ for a clear, _specific_ explanation as to why we didn't advance to Beginner II, I still haven't gotten it. In fact, I sent her an email this morning (I've sent her multiple emails, actually) stating that I was "very disappointed" to not hear back after three weeks, and "would hope my agility instructor wants to see us succeed- and that includes _specifically_ telling us where we are failing." It was a bold email ending in "I have no desire what-so-ever to repeat Beginner I again," but obviously this lack of knowledge is affecting my at-home practice as well.

How can I know that I'm pushing to fast? I'm pretty new to this crap, you know... Anyway- there is still so much to be learned, and I am sure I demonstrate a lot of "wrong" stuff in these videos. All I can say is I am glad to have you guys to point that stuff out to me! (And to provide links to other areas to read about.)

So thanks for that! I will be sure to read the links!!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Funny- I complained about a lack of response from my instructor, and then she just emailed me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> Are we really ready for double boxes- I truly don't know. Probably not. Doesn't seem like it would hurt anything though...
> 
> There is SO MUCH involved in agility that it is hard to break down foundations from beginner to intermediate, etc, etc. Pimg seems to truly love sequencing, and she gets SO BORED doing single jump work. I _*think*_ it makes sense to want to move towards more sequencing- but what do I know.
> 
> ...


You are doing GREAT!!!!! 

But kind of look at my 'I won't do something wrong more than twice' post above when you are out training on your own. Cause that tells you to stop and rethink what you are doing and will cause ZERO problems for your dog cause there won't be any of the frustration. 

You absolutely can try some of the double box stuff, but do it with setting yourself (and your dog) up to SUCCEED! So start with the stuff you can do and only gradually start adding the harder skills. 

While I wouldn't be killing myself to start long involved sequences, 8 jumps may not be too much at all! It depends on your dog and HOW MUCH YOU ARE REWARDING to keep them engaged and willing to continue. Throwing the toy when I finish 6 jumps. Or giving a food treat when we do a front cross correctly and then going on to finish the sequence. RANDOM reinforcement, rewarding brilliance, and as much of a toy as you can throw in and still keep training.

One of the main things I see in my beginner classes is people get so focused on the course and how well it's going, they are gradually also sucking the fun slowly out of agility because they STOP rewarding except at the end. So with the longer sequences, those rewards start coming much less frequently and the greener dogs start to loose some of their enthusiasm just as we are getting onto courses that are MORE challenging and harder. 

So we need to remember that it's MORE important to figure out when/how/where to reward then how we may be doing the course at all with our new/younger dogs. The rewards ARE part of doing the training. So if we aren't as aware of that and focused on that, it's doing our pups a disfavor that really kicks us in the behind down the line.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> So we need to remember that it's MORE important to figure out when/how/where to reward then how we may be doing the course at all with our new/younger dogs. The rewards ARE part of doing the training. So if we aren't as aware of that and focused on that, it's doing our pups a disfavor that really kicks us in the behind down the line.


 ITA! With beginner dogs, I'd rather see people keep things simple with a high rate of reinforcement. If you keep things simple, fast and fun for the dog early on, the harder things will come much easier. I don't practice much drilling or anything, I set up sequences and run them a couple times. If the dog misses an obstacle or takes a wrong obstacle and it's my fault (usually!) I just keep running, reward and try the sequence again. Too often handlers kill their dog's drive by stopping mid-sequence and repeating and repeating and repeating because they are having a hard time getting the handling right.


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