# More time? Or time to give up?



## KristiM

So Odin and I have been working very hard on jumping at 26" since November. It just doesn't seem to be getting any better, he often times knocks 50% of the bars on a course in class. Out of the two trials I have done at 26" he has only had 3/16 runs where he didn't knock multiple bars. I'm really starting to think he's just not physically capable of jumping 26" on these tight courses. It's really not the tight turns he's having trouble with its the jumps on straightaways that are only 15 feet apart. He just can't get a compressed stride in that space, he's REALLY trying and ends up doing things to his body that make me cringe. 

Last night in class our trainer basically said "he jumps so much smoother and runs much nicer at 22" she has said before that he doesn't struggle with the height, he's just going too fast to be able to collect enough to keep the bars up. She hasn't come right out and said i should enter him in specials but she obviously thinks we would be more successful there. I don't want him to slow down, I love how fast he is! And I am getting concerned about the repetitive strain issue that working on jumping causes (we are basically going to the barn twice a week and working on nothing but jumping and then once a week have classes with full courses.)

Obviously the decision to enter him in "specials" is a personal one and I have to consider what is best for my dog. Anyone have any ideas though? Should I just give it more time?

(Seriously starting to see why Wildo wouldn't get a male GSD! Maybe they are just not physically capable of competing in this venue of agility)


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## wildo

What ideas are you looking for? Ideas for correcting jumping, or thoughts on moving to a lower jump height?

Some thoughts/questions:


How old is Odin? If he's still young, perhaps under 5, then I'd be tempted to keep at it.
What are you doing when "working on jumping"? Have you used or considered using Susan Salo's jump grid DVDs? Have you ever used the set point spider before?
It sounds to me from your description that he can't get a stride in between two 15' jumps- but is trying anyway. Hmmm... that really is a LONG distance for a bounce jump, especially having to clear 26". Is he really going that fast that he doesn't have room for the stride, or is he just not confident in setting himself up for the jump?


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## wildo

Opps- I didn't give you thoughts on moving down really. All I can say is that when I started agility, I realized Pimg was a bigger dog. And while she's only 69 pounds, she's as big, or bigger than a lot of WL males. Even though I knew the state of her hips and elbows (OFA Good) I still realized that impact of all that jumping. And given her age (5.5 years old when we _started_ agility) I decided to jump her in performance. Sometimes I regret it. We pretty much compete against ourselves. Every now and then there's another in the class, but generally I have to compare our times against other dogs in the level. So from a purely competitive standpoint (that is- WANTING to compete) I would have liked to be in the larger jumping group. But from what I know is right and healthy for the longevity of my dog, and given her age when we started, I knew it was right to put her in a lower class.

I think you're right: It's completely personal. You'll just have to know your dog, know what you enjoy, and make a decision. I'll say- I'd be thoroughly perplexed, confused, and just not sure what to do next if my team's Q rate was 18.75% I can imagine why you'd be posting exactly what you're posting...

My best advice is to teach jump foundations- real jumping- before giving up. That's assuming that you're not currently doing that.


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## KristiM

Odin will be 4 in April. We have worked through all the foundation jumping (Susan salo) and he jumps very nicely! He is having trouble with some of the jump grids in the advanced DVD. The straight grid at 26" if the jumps are closer than 18 feet he can't make it. He tries to either bounce it (he's actually more successful with a bounce jump but can't do more than one) or his "stride" in between is like a 3 footed stutter stride. To me he really doesn't look like he has any confidence problems and seems to judge distance very well. I'm just starting to think he can't physically do it when the jumps are that close. He is quite long, you don't see that in the pictures of him but he really is on the long side. He has a HUGE stride! When we do the distance grid he can do a 25 foot distance with just one stride. He does compressed jumps nicely too on the durance grid BUT with just the one jump (3 low stride regulators) if we are under 18 feet he bounces it and does it nicely and comfortably. 

I'm just frustrated and SO sick of working on boring jump grids! Especially when I'm not seeing improvement. If I encourage him to be slow, he will keep up most bars. But the whole point of this game is speed, plus we suffer in other areas (like off courses, handler focus etc) I try to not "race" him. I do need to be ahead sometimes though and when I do, all the bars come down. These are kind of two separate issues 1. Not able to get a compressed stride on straight away jumps 2. Knocking bars because he's trying to go too fast. 


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## wildo

KristiM said:


> plus we suffer in other areas (like off courses, handler focus etc) I try to not "race" him. I do need to be ahead sometimes though and when I do, all the bars come down. These are kind of two separate issues 1. Not able to get a compressed stride on straight away jumps 2. Knocking bars because he's trying to go too fast.


Well, you've certainly done way more Salo grids than me... LOL! But I think you may have hit on your real issue above. You say the issues are:


Not able to get a compressed stride on straight away jumps
Knocking bars because he's trying to go too fast
But you also mention DISTRACTION issues! Off courses, handler focus- most _certianly_ these things can cause knocked bars yes? Do you think that his mind might just be going a mile a minute on those compressed jumps, causing him to knock them? I assume you've done the grids he's having issues on while YOU stand back and just send him, yes? And he still knocks them even then?

Man- that's a tough one! If you can rule out distraction and focus issues from being the cause of the knocked bars, and you've clearly done lots of jump foundations-- maybe it is time to lower the bars. No shame in that. I can tell you I'd much rather be happy and having fun than constantly frustrated.


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## KristiM

Yes I have done lots of just sending him over the jumps and he still has the exact same issues. The distraction issues come when I run slow. So last night in class I though "okay, let's try to slow him down by me running slow." He just went into "NADAC" mode and started to run his own course leaving me behind. The times I have tried slowing down in trails he's kind like "uh, what are you doing? Why aren't you running with me?" That's what I mean by handler focus and off courses. 

My competitive side is like "NO, he can do this we just need more work!" My I love my dog and just wanna have fun side is saying "we would probably both be happier and more successful in specials." Just trying to sort out which side I should listen to


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## JakodaCD OA

what are you competing in? Sounds like USDAA? altho I see your in Canada so venues may be different.

I am a competitive person as well, when I enter an agility ring, I go in there to qualify, there I said it (shoot me.

I have learned over the years, one needs to look at the dog and what it's truly capable of, not what "I want" but what works for the dog.

When doing Nadac with Jynx, she is just 22", tho we q'd on the higher heights, the speed wasn't there, she was just making time or nq'ing because of one or two knocked bars, lowering her to 20" made all the difference. She was MUCH happier, and well, so was I.

My gsd, was never a bar knocker, she was around 72#, long striding , long legged. 26" was a breeze for her, as she got older and after knee surgery, she would knock a bar here and there, I dropped her back . I could see the effort she was putting into it for "me", but it wasn't good for "her".

There are times when we have to forget about our 'competiveness', (and it has killed me on more than one occasion to do so!), and do what works for our dog..

Good luck with your decision


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## KristiM

Also in AAC there are probably just as many dogs that compete in specials as there are in regular, so its really not like I wouldn't have other teams to compete against. Especially at 22", but all the really good dogs tend to compete in regular. And Odin IS a really good dog! (He's just big lol, he can't help it!)


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## KristiM

Jacoda I am competing in AAC it's very similar to USDAA, although USDAA to me does look a little more spread out and flowy. I don't know what the distances between the jumps are in USDAA? That's the one thing I am really hating about AAC, the straightaways that are just stupid tight!

Your right, I need to put my competitiveness aside and think first about what's best for my DOG. That is so much easier said than done, but I've done it before (walked away from IPO because it was what was best for my dogs) I guess I have to suck up my pride and do it again. (Not walk away, just alter it lol.) We have a trial in 2 weeks, I'm thinking really hard about emailing the trial secretary to see if they can drop us down to specials. 


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## Lauri & The Gang

I would try it once and see how it goes. If the dog does MUCH better then you have your answer.


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## wildo

I'm fairly certain I've seen reference to 17' minimum in USDAA.


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## KristiM

That's what I thought wildo, that 2 feet makes a big difference for Odin. I do understand that in AAC that's part of the challenge, it's just a bit too challenging for us

Lauri, in class we often run at 22" (because its super annoying to constantly be changing the jump heights and he's the only 26" dog) 22" is obviously easier for him! But, I'm kinda thinking "of course it is, jumping lower is always going to be easier." BUT is 26" just too hard for him? The more I think about it the more I'm thinking it is just too hard. The more I work on it, the worse his form seems to get. I'm going to do some jumpers sequences this afternoon and take video to compare him at 22 vs 26. 


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## KristiM

Oh and Jacoda, don't feel bad about your comment of being there to Q! I don't want to just Q, I want to win!!! I know I'm such a bad person lol. 


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## wildo

KristiM said:


> I don't want to just Q, I want to win!!! I know I'm such a bad person lol.


Me three!! :toasting:


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## AgileGSD

KristiM said:


> Lauri, in class we often run at 22" (because its super annoying to constantly be changing the jump heights and he's the only 26" dog) 22" is obviously easier for him! But, I'm kinda thinking "of course it is, jumping lower is always going to be easier." BUT is 26" just too hard for him? The more I think about it the more I'm thinking it is just too hard. The more I work on it, the worse his form seems to get. I'm going to do some jumpers sequences this afternoon and take video to compare him at 22 vs 26.


 From what you are saying here, I think I'd suggest running him in the 22" class. Not all dogs have the same physical capabilities regardless of breed or size. I actually think in terms of size, it's easier for the bigger dogs within reason. However, certain structural traits can make all the difference in the world. Dogs who are too long in body (generally this is from being short legged), too heavy boned, too deep chested, dogs who are high in the rear or who have too much or not enough rear angulation seem to struggle with jumping the most IME. And certainly some of those traits are found in GSDs. Also there's a such thing as "too big" in agility as well, really big dogs can be quite awkward (thinking giant breeds here or the super oversized GSDs I've seen running occasionally). 

The reason I would lower the jump height in this case is because the dog is clearly struggling, even after a lot of foundation work to address the problem. Regardless of cause, it seems like this height might just be too much for this dog. Even dogs are capable of jumping really high aren't always capable of doing so many times in a row and at speed. I would worry that a dog who is knocking 50% of the jumps is eventually going to end up getting weird about jumping. Or learning that crashing the jumps is easier/more effective/doesn't matter. Either way, that would be pretty detrimental to the dog's career as an agility dog. I don't think there is anything wrong with putting your dog in the class that he can be most successful in. The class that is best suited for him, as an individual.


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## gsdheeler

With my male I had some of the same issues, two things helped, I tried to run him with my mouth shut, I only said something if I had to and I had his Thyroid checked, it was low.
He didn't have any of the usual signs of low Thyroid, I went to the Vet and asked for a full panel screening and sure enough. After a change in my handling and some meds he rarely dropped a bar.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

AgileGSD said:


> From what you are saying here, I think I'd suggest running him in the 22" class. Not all dogs have the same physical capabilities regardless of breed or size. I actually think in terms of size, it's easier for the bigger dogs within reason. However, certain structural traits can make all the difference in the world. Dogs who are too long in body (generally this is from being short legged), too heavy boned, too deep chested, dogs who are high in the rear or who have too much or not enough rear angulation seem to struggle with jumping the most IME. And certainly some of those traits are found in GSDs. Also there's a such thing as "too big" in agility as well, really big dogs can be quite awkward (thinking giant breeds here or the super oversized GSDs I've seen running occasionally).
> 
> The reason I would lower the jump height in this case is because the dog is clearly struggling, even after a lot of foundation work to address the problem. Regardless of cause, it seems like this height might just be too much for this dog. Even dogs are capable of jumping really high aren't always capable of doing so many times in a row and at speed. I would worry that a dog who is knocking 50% of the jumps is eventually going to end up getting weird about jumping. Or learning that crashing the jumps is easier/more effective/doesn't matter. Either way, that would be pretty detrimental to the dog's career as an agility dog. I don't think there is anything wrong with putting your dog in the class that he can be most successful in. The class that is best suited for him, as an individual.


I agree with this. I do USDAA-where the distances are also pretty tight (15 feet I believe, but can also be even tighter between certain obstacles), but my dog is tall and lanky. I think his body structure can handle it...but if he wasn't succeeding I would definitely put him at 22". I don't think it's fun for you or the dog if he's not succeeding. I'll be lowering Mikko's jump height hopefully very soon too, due to his age. If you are really close to a certain title you are trying to get, maybe keep at it-but otherwise you might as well put him down in 22" and that way he can be successful and also have more time at that height to earn some big titles


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## JakodaCD OA

Kristi, yes winning is not a bad thing When I started agility with my gsd Sami, she spoiled me bad, an easy trainer, a dog that always q'd, and never ran without getting a first or second placement in akc, nadac, & asca venues. We got a few HIT's, and yes it was a big ego boost. It killed me to retire her at 7 years old, she didn't mind, she was doing it for 'me' cause all those ribbons didn't mean a darn thing to her

Then I got the aussie Who frustrated me to no end, she did ok, we got to Open levels, but she was NOT the gsd who gave her all for me..So I retired her ..That aussie humbled me

Masi could care less about agility, which is fine, I probably would expect to much and it wouldn't be fair to her. 

So what I'm saying is, enjoy what he can do and do well, and work with what you've got


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## KristiM

I got some video from this afternoon comparing the same course at 22 vs 26". I have to go back to work for a few hours but I will hopefully get it edited and posted later tonight. 

One thing I totally forgot about til this afternoon is that the barn I take classes in is sand and it is super hard to run in. The instructor warned me about that being a factor on the fist night of class. I am starting to think that he might just be trying to go too fast altogether? I am worried that I will put him into specials and we will wind up with the same issue. He really is an athletic dog, his only real downfall is that he is long. This is a video from our last trial at 26"





 
When I watch that, it really doesn't look like he is struggling for the most part, I think he can sometimes just stop paying attention maybe? Okay gotta run will post more later....


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Hmm, I see what you're saying. He jumps kind of funny when there is a line of jumps, like the beginning of the second run and end of the third run. I can't quite pinpoint what it is about him that looks funny, though. Almost like he's taking off too early, or trying to get in an extra half of a stride, which makes him not clear the next jump-I can't figure it out. I bet Willy could explain it.
Are you sure some of the obstacles are even 15' apart? That line in the beginning of the second run looks really tight!


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## JakodaCD OA

first off he's VERY good good handling to

I watched the video a couple times, and I kept saying to myself, there was something "funky" about his jumping style..

Take this for what its worth,,I was trying to see 'why' he was knocking bars..to me he looks like he's not tucking up his rear legs..if you watch close on some of his jumps, he looks like (if I can explain this right he is throwing up his "rear" vs 'tucking' up his legs/feet (rear) and moving smooth and straight..If you watch a couple times he goes thru the tire, it's "moving" like he's hitting it with his rear again, not 'tucking' enough?? 

Honestly, he looks GOOD jumping, it doesn't look like he's "struggling' with the height, and honestly they don't look to tight to me, (but they always look different when your out there on course).. He really doesn't look like he's struggling at all, except I see this rear "flip" kinda thing when he goes over the jumps??

I know you are sick of jump grids, but have you ever tried any of the exercises in Jumping A - Z?

I wonder if we can slow the vid down?


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## KristiM

To me it looks like he is just unable to actually get a stride in, it looks like only 3 feet actually hit the ground between those two jumps. 

I know!! Its super tight hey? Stupid AAC, I was we had USDAA it looks a little more reasonable (and keep in mind this is NOVICE, it gets tougher/tighter!) The run where he really crashes the double I have a hard time believing there is 15' of space there...


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## KristiM

Lol posted at the same time as you Jacoda. Thank you he is a good boy! i still need a lot of work lol.

I know what you mean with the flipping his rear end, he just started doing that at that trial. Now that you mention the tucking thing, your right he doesn't tuck and that is probably where all the dropped bars are coming from. Just quickly glancing at the videos at 22" from this afternoon, he actually tucks less at 22". Which is why I'm starting to think lower height won't mean keeping up more bars. 


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## KristiM

gsdheeler said:


> With my male I had some of the same issues, two things helped, I tried to run him with my mouth shut, I only said something if I had to and I had his Thyroid checked, it was low.
> He didn't have any of the usual signs of low Thyroid, I went to the Vet and asked for a full panel screening and sure enough. After a change in my handling and some meds he rarely dropped a bar.


This is a great suggestion and would be an easy fix. Unfortunately if anything I am too quiet, I often have people approach me after runs and tell me how cool it is that I run silent! I do say stuff, I just don't say a lot, and when I do I guess I say it quietly I will keep the health stuff in the back of my head, I just really don't think Odin would be able to do the tough hiking and snowshoeing I do with him if there were a problem.


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## KristiM

JakodaCD OA said:


> Kristi, yes winning is not a bad thing When I started agility with my gsd Sami, she spoiled me bad, an easy trainer, a dog that always q'd, and never ran without getting a first or second placement in akc, nadac, & asca venues. We got a few HIT's, and yes it was a big ego boost. It killed me to retire her at 7 years old, she didn't mind, she was doing it for 'me' cause all those ribbons didn't mean a darn thing to her
> 
> Then I got the aussie Who frustrated me to no end, she did ok, we got to Open levels, but she was NOT the gsd who gave her all for me..So I retired her ..That aussie humbled me
> 
> Masi could care less about agility, which is fine, I probably would expect to much and it wouldn't be fair to her.
> 
> So what I'm saying is, enjoy what he can do and do well, and work with what you've got


Lol about your aussie, they are so naughty aren't they? You know i really do just enjoy working with Odin for the sake of working with him! And He LOVES agility, he howls once we start getting close to the barn (and he doesn't howl lol.) I think he gets more excited for agility than anything else (and he gets pretty excited fo rhiking and swimming!) It's funny, it is starting to look more and more like Havoc (my younger GSD) may have to retire before he even starts due to a spine/tail injury and my biggest concern is losing my hiking buddy! If he can't compete I'm "OK" with that. But I would be devastated to lose either of the dogs as my hiking and snowshoeing partners!


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## KristiM

Okay, finally got the video from today done. I did some of it in slow motion so that I can look at his jumping a little better. This course had already been set up when I got there (love it when that happens.) Would love to know what you guys think? 

Does the height seem to make a big difference??

Odin agility22vs26" - YouTube


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## avonbankcollies

just from what I see in the video it looks like he is flinging himself over the jumps when they are in a straight line, I know speed is important but there are many other places on the course he can make that up, he executes all of the equipment very fast, most of the collected jumps are done really well... Just an idea (and maybe you have tried it already) but what if you didn't push so fast down the line on the straight aways and then maybe as he becomes more used to the AAC spacing he can pick up his speed again on them.


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## KristiM

When I slow down on the straightaways, I end up really far behind him and he just keeps going and we get off courses. Or he takes it as a turning cue and comes in. I agree that he does need to slow down to get those jumps, I just have no idea how to do that.


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## KristiM

Anyone have any opinion on the 22'' jumps vs the 26" jumps? Do you think 22" is signifigantly easier for him?

Odin agility22vs26" - YouTube


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## JakodaCD OA

Honestly, I don't see much difference in his jumping style on the 26 vs 22

Even at 22 he's barreling thru the tire, and it's separating, so he's 'hitting' it I'm assuming.

Even tho he's knocking bars on 26, I honestly thought he looked 'better' jumping 26 than 22..

Slowing the vid down, those jumps ARE pretty darn tight, but I don't think it's the tight courses that bother me with him.

Not a negative, but he seems to leave no 'air' when he jumps, like jumping flat and not 'gathering' his rear legs/rear??? maybe?? I thought it looked like he was jumping 'flatter' in the 22 vs the 26..

I dunno hard to pinpoint,,I think I would try the Jumping A-Z type grids..


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## KristiM

I'm seeing the same thing as you Jacoda. He's not clearing the 22" jumps anymore than he's clearing the 26" jumps. The tire is a separate issue, even when he can easily clear it, he "belly flops" it. I'm pretty sure he thinks its more fun that way, I was putting a jump under the tire and that was getting him to pay more attention, should go back to that. I will try the jumping form a-z, I have been thinking of getting that for a while now anyways 

Some of the bars in the vid are obviously my fault, moving too soon before the double and not leaving enough space for that jump after the weave poles. But you can hear him ticking several jumps, they just happen to stay up. I wonder if there's a "trick" to get them to tuck better in the rear. Maybe I should be focusing more effort to core conditioning and rear end awareness. 


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## KristiM

Anyone else have an opinion on the height difference? You won't hurt my feelings, I promise


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## wildo

I have to say- not the answer you're looking for but I agree with the others! I watched it a few times and it wasn't until the very last jump in the video at 22" that I saw it. There is NO ROOM between him and the bars!! It's almost as if he isn't even jumping, but trying to step over them. I'm sorry I don't think I have any advice but I don't know what to call this...

In fact- the slow motion, last 22" jump in the series- you can actually see him talk off about 3' from the jump. He barely clears it and then lands WAY out passed the jump- probably landing 7-9' past it!

Ok- this is going to get weird, but stick with me... I know he's not a BC and not going to jump like a BC, however, check out how Solar jumps in extension- he's taking off well before the jump- probably 8 or 9' before the jump and landing as far passed it. His take off and landing points are equidistant. But in your video, that is so not true. Odin's take off point is VERY close and his landing point is VERY far. This is like the opposite of Early Takeoff Syndrome. 





What I can say is that I've sent Susan Salo a youtube video before asking for help. She was VERY nice and responded promptly. Perhaps you could send her this video and mention you own all her DVDs and have worked through them. Ask for advice from her.


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## KristiM

I think your right wildo, I did have someone who is quite experienced tell me he is "over jumping" now I get what he meant! He is taking off super close and landing too far, on straightaways he's landing too far to have any space to take the next jump. Maybe Odin invented a new jumping problem we can call it late take off, far landing syndrome Well as much as I'm kinda glad that the height isn't the issue, this is certainly going to be a much more difficult problem to fix!

Looks like a lot of jump grids are in our future, it's a good thing I like them so much 

Maybe what I'll do is make a video of a straight jump grid and see if she'll comment on it for me. I'm watching the last DVD in the advanced jumping series tonight maybe there will be some insight there. 


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## MaggieRoseLee

If there is really a physical issue, then I'd jump the lower height. And continue to figure out the physical issue.
]
OTHERWISE, and it seems this is generally what people are saying, is that jumping as a skill for THE DOG, with a handler in the mix really is hard.

And our GSD's are NOT BC's and the more agile smaller dogs that can so quickly adjust on the fly. ALL my GSD's are bar knockers. Period. It's the way they are, I need to be aware of that and there are things I can do to make it better.

Tons of jump training is key because it gives the dogs confidence and teaches the body skills they need to jump properly, LEAD change properly, take off/land properly, turn in midair (or not), wrap a jump (or not), go on ahead (extension)with confidence, slow and take a jump with confidence (collection).

It's funny cause people who had dogs that hardly ever knock bars just can't understand those of us that do.

I also know, really really know, that if my dog is at all not sure where she is going OR cranked up and on a run, then what she has somehow learned is that (she thinks) that doing the proper piece of equipment is #1 and doing it properly (like keeping the bar up) is sometimes OPTIONAL. So that's a problem......  

As opposed to the gymnastics I've seen some dogs do to make sure they get over a jump and keep the bar up... 

Plus both my girls will wrap jumps so tight they'll lean against the jump standard pulling it over or at least away from the other side enough the top bar falls. And lets not even talk about their darn tails!!! 

So any and all jump training you can take advantage of helps. Training in the yard helps. Taking jump seminars helps. If you can attend any Susan Salo Seminars in person it's extremely eye opening and she's so up on structure she can help with that too.

Our dogs ARE bigger than some others. They are heavier than some others. They are longer than some others. And their handler focus can also be more than in other breeds so they focus more on us than what's in front of them. 

Both my GSD's also BARELY clear the jumps most of the time. Whether I jump 16", or 20" or 24" or 26" . Particularly with Bretta I will hear the 'tick, tick, tick' of her toenails sometimes hitting 1/2 the jumps on the course! So you add any handler weirdness to a run (and I add that all the time  ) then she can knock that bar easy peasy.


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## JakodaCD OA

here's my aussie leaving "air",,not my gsd, will have to see if I have pics of her..


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## MaggieRoseLee

I think you really need an jump expert to see that video. He does have a different jump style when he kicks out his hind legs, but that may just be normal for him. He seems plenty stong and excited and not that he's physically having an issue.

To me he's more like my Bretta with alot of WHOHHOO and handler focus. Plus, he may also be like Bretta with thinking that staying on course is #1, and things like contacts and keeping bars up not so important.

Is there a chance you could attend a Susan Salo seminar or send the video to her to ask if her DVDs would help or does she see another issue?

I see the same issues I have with my big long excited dogs who choose to not always think as they jump.. But there may be more going on.

Good luck


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## KristiM

Thanks for the posts MRL! I doubt that Susan Salo will be anywhere near me anythime soon (I am in Western Canada) but I am going to book a private with someone who is pretty experienced (he's been on the world team a few times) and looked at him once before and mentioned that he is "over jumping" as in not landing in a good spot. I don't really see handler focus being an issue as far as the jumping goes, he's pretty equipment driven and has crazy good distance skills (we started in NADAC.) Jumping flat and trying to do it too fast at the sacrifice of accuracy is certainly an issue, but I have no idea how to get him to slow down enough to maintain accuracy but still maintain speed! 

I am going to go back to doing more set point jumping but including a stride regulator on the landing side as well to get the point across of taking off and landing at an equal distance like Wildo pointed out. The one Susan Salo grid he is having a super hard time with is the grid that has stride regulators on each side. He hits the landig side stride regulator every time, so I think going back to trouble shoot that would be good for him. He does knock bars at all heights, I'm glad to hear he's not the only GSD bar knocker! 

He seems to be doing different things with his back legs since I have been doing some rear end awareness with him, maybe he is just figuring himself out back there? He has very poor rear end awareness, I have finally been able to show him that he CAN control what his back legs do. This could also be an issue that has stemmed from jumping him at 16' in NADAC where he COULD succesfully "step" over the jumps.

I also ordered the A-Z exercises book and Linda Mecklenberg's developing jumping skills book. There might be some different insight in there.

Jacoda your aussie is beautiful:wub: (Its been 5 months since my aussie passed and I still can't even look at a picture of a black tri aussie without crying.) I know what you mean about leaving a bit of air, just have no idea how to teach it. Grrr, this is all very frustrating especially considering jumping is by far my LEAST favorite thing to work on! Plus its probably the hardest thing physically for the dog, especially when they are doing it so ugly.


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## wildo

KristiM said:


> and Linda Mecklenberg's developing jumping skills book. There might be some different insight in there.


I've never used this book, but hear excellent things about it. Christina (who I pointed you to about Hostile vom KiaHaus) uses Linda's jumping skills book with great results- I spoke to her about this book specifically just this week. Her GSD Trauma is a nice jumper and definitely leaves space between the bars. Hopefully whatever is in there works out for you!


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## KristiM

Thanks Wildo! I am glad to hear that, i was kinda wondering about it since I haven't heard much about it. Honestly the Susan Salo grids don't really seem to be giving us many results, so I am really looking forward to getting a different spin on this. I should also be working harder on core conditioning and rear end awareness but I have been having way too much fun working on box turns for flyball So many things to work on, I really need to win the lottery! Having to work for a living is really getting in the way of all my dog activities


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## MaggieRoseLee

You can see how close my dogs jump in these 3 photos. In one way, it's smart jumping cause they aren't waiting energy to clear them. This is Glory and the top bar stayed up.










Look at those back feet...










Now look at her front foot /ankle, that's amazing.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Some videos on 'Early Take Off Syndrome' ETS, not sure why I can't hear the audio...





 
You can set this up and have someone video to compare your dog if you think this may be an issue.





 
This dog/handler trial around me (heck I was probably at this trial  ) , interesting to see a bigger dog.





 




 
After looking at those videos and going back to yours, to me that doesn't look like the issue. But I am not an expert and I'm sure the condition varies with each dog.


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## wildo

We said he has the OPPOSITE of ETS- "late" take off syndrome.


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## KristiM

Thanks for the vids MRL! I felt so bad for that sheltie, he was so much fun to watch in the first few runs It really looks like Odin has the opposite problem of ETS. I'm really hoping with some work that it can be fixed. I'm going though and looking at all of his agility videos and examining his jumping. There has got to be a way to get him to learn to take off a little earlier and land a little shorter.


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## avonbankcollies

this may be like comparing apples and oranges but I watched video of my border collie who is a beautiful jumper and then Jackpot do the exact same line of jumps. Jackpot is almost twice as long as Driver and about 4 or 5 inches taller Driver was able to get 3 or 4 strides in between two jumps whereas jackpot could only get 2 strides and sometimes a skip. I was not pushing either dog for speed. Jackpot doesn't waste any extra energy on air time she only just clears the jump no matter if it is 22 or 26, I'm probably way off course but i'm wondering if it could just be to tight a spacing for these big long dogs?


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## KristiM

Ya these courses are certainly not friendly to a big, long dog! But there are big dogs who can do it! Stew's mals seem to do okay with the jumps (and his male is pretty big) mals are generally just more athletic than GSDs. But still. The main reason I'm thinking of lowering him to specials is because it is going to be easier for him on these tight courses. BUT I think I may run into the problem of him trying to "step" over the jumps. I am entered in two upcoming trials at 26" and I will see how they go. Especially since I am doing flyball now, I worry about the impact of all that ugly jumping.


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